# The "Sugarbush Thread"



## thetrailboss (Jun 23, 2005)

OK, we're getting a lot of good questions in here...let's plan on wrapping it up TOMORROW Noon or so.


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## djspookman (Jun 23, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

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I'm not going to tell where it goes, other than I can ski home using it 

dave


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## Strat (Jun 23, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

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Oh do tell, I am oh so interested... at least tell whereabouts you live? 

Like I'd steal your stash anyway... why would I wanna end up at your house?  :wink:


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 23, 2005)

Slide Brook Basin access  

Hey Spook...hope you don't take that way home in March cause the bears are waking up and they are powerful hungry that time of year... :lol:


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## Strat (Jun 23, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Slide Brook Basin access


Is this question or answer... 8)


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## djspookman (Jun 23, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> OK, new question...
> Just thought of another one...
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> Snowflake, the trail once serviced by the old T-Bar at North, to the south of Sunny D (at the termination of Lower FIS) has gone unused for years... seems like with North's complete and total lack of beginner terrain, a cheap T-Bar could be purchased by Sugarbush and installed down there to make North a little more accomodating to beginners... North has seen a lot of improvements, but that would really make it more of a complete mountain... does this plan seem semi-realistic?



DITTO on the Snowflake area.  I checked it out this winter and was thinking the same thing!  Heck, get those lift parts out of there and clear out the old tow line and put in a short t-bar and you're all set!

dave


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## djspookman (Jun 23, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Slide Brook Basin access
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> Hey Spook...hope you don't take that way home in March cause the bears are waking up and they are powerful hungry that time of year... :lol:



yup, spring is the best time to take that home, all sunny and sweet snow  I don't worry about bears too much, as I live on the flats, so we're used to all kinds of wildlife in our backyard already!  fresh moose tracks out there last week, and I usually see a deer or two a week!

dave


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## Strat (Jun 23, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

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Wow, goes all the way down to the flats... now the question is, why did they ever cut that thing?


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## skibum1321 (Jun 23, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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Actually, after the Big Pass there was the Huge Pass which included Jay, MRG and the Bush. It was a college deal yet again.


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## djspookman (Jun 24, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

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I love woods skiing so I just use that part to get into the woods, then make my own line from there, so i'm not exactly sure where on the flats it ends up, but i'm assuming that it does somewhere since there are numerous access trails for lift evacs/lift access.


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2005)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Actually, after the Big Pass there was the Huge Pass which included Jay, MRG and the Bush. It was a college deal yet again.



WOW  ! Now that's a great deal. You know, part of our 5 year plan is to move to VT, probably the MRV because I love MRG and SB. Now if they were to come up with a plan like that again and throw Stowe into the mix, I'd quit my job today and move now.


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

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Ah I see, thanks for the info dave, always interested to find out new quirks about the 'bush...


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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Might want to start looking at land now Jim, real estate is pretty sparse, and what's out there is very very expensive...


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## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2005)

OK, great conversation here...hate to do it...but will lock this thread at 12 noon.  I can start a new 'Sugarbush thread' for you all if you'd like to keep a conversation going...


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Might want to start looking at land now Jim, real estate is pretty sparse, and what's out there is very very expensive...



So I have found out...fortunately (??) I live near NYC and real estate here is about as expensive as it gets, so it wasn't much of a shock to me when I saw some prices. 

The house we bought less than 2 years ago has already appreciated 30% in value. Sick!!


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## Greg (Jun 24, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> OK, great conversation here...hate to do it...but will lock this thread at 12 noon.  I can start a new 'Sugarbush thread' for you all if you'd like to keep a conversation going...


Or split out the posts into a new thread. Click this TTB:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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There are signs here in Eastern MA that things are beginning to slow...sales of single family homes FELL 11 percent in May, but prices still rose  :-? 

People are getting way to wound up in this 'craze.'


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> There are signs here in Eastern MA that things are beginning to slow...sales of single family homes FELL 11 percent in May, but prices still rose  :-?
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> People are getting way to wound up in this 'craze.'



Yeah, several markets are pretty ripe for the bubble to burst soon. Glad I'm not in it as a specualtive investment; my house is my home and if it doesn't make sense to sell it and move I'll stay.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2005)

New thread started...same great conversation...thanks!


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## djspookman (Jun 24, 2005)

yah, real esate in the Valley sucks right now.  The only affordable stuff are one bedroom condos, unless you are moving from out of state, because cost of living in VT isn't proportionate(sp?) to income. So, because of this I am forced to rent.. yippee... ugh..  

dave


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## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> The only affordable stuff are one bedroom condos, unless you are moving from out of state, because cost of living in VT isn't proportionate(sp?) to income. So, because of this I am forced to rent.. yippee... ugh..
> 
> dave



Yes, this is true.  The idea was to tax the rich land owners, but what is happening is that the folks who are native and own their houses/land are being over taxed.


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## ctenidae (Jun 24, 2005)

I was on the Bubble Bandwagon for a while, becasue it sure looked like one, but the fundamentals are supporting more of a solid, permanent change. The boys over at Bridgewater (who know a thing or two about things) are saying that soon the US will be where Europe was 20 years ago, with 45% of income going to housing, and married couples living with their parents for many years before buying their own home. It's at 20% now, so that leaves a lot of room for price expansion.

Of course, that has nothing to do with Sugarbush, so I'll leave it at that.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 24, 2005)

House prices - real estate is currently selling at a multiple to rents that is higher than seen in US history.  Houses are increasingly unaffordable as a % of income all across the country, and especially on the coasts.  Whomever told you that we're going to morph to the European model sounds like a snake oil salesman to me.  This is a lovely bubble we are in now, and people are going to get hurt badly before too long.


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

So we have a sugarbush thread... now what do we do?

Here's a thought-provoker: 2 foot dump last night, let's say it's midseason so you're fully in shape and everything. You hurry up to Sugarbush (North or South, your pick) to get first chair. Which trail/glade do you hit first? Keep it on-map, makes it a bit more challenging...

Me, I say Paradise. No, I've never ridden it, but I've only heard great things, especially on pow days.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 24, 2005)

Also, I'm kind of bummed that I missed the opportunity to ask questions in this thread, b/c SB is my home mountain.  That's what I get for not looking at AZ for a few days.  What the heck - I'll throw some out anyway and see if JJ can get to them.

1) I've seen plans to replace the Valley House double with a high speed quad while extending the base terminal downhill to where the rental shop has been.  Clearly the goal is to increase the out of base lift capacity so that the Super Bravo and Gate House quads aren't overwhelmed as they usually are on busy weekend/holiday mornings.  But this plan concerns me for two reasons.  First, the current intersection with the Valley House traverse and the top terminal of the VH lift is a disaster.  The traverse gets scraped down to bare ice by 10:30AM and I see multiple collisions and near misses every day I'm there.  Aren't you concerned that a quad would exacerbate this problem?  Second, the trails in that pod are already quite heavily used, especially Spring Fling and Snowball/Racers Edge.  Why would you want to double lift capacity for a pod with two crowded snowmaking trails, and four expert/upper intermediate natural trails that can't handle many more skiers as it is?  Throw in the fact that half of Spring Fling is often closed and you really are setting yourselves up for a diminution of the skiing experience.  Lift lines are, by and large, not a big problem at SB.  Why go for the sexy marketing coup at the expense of the skiing experience?

2) Has anyone considered cutting a traverse from the top of Middle Earth down to the base of the North Lynx triple?  Such a trail would have multiple benefits for SB.  First, it would help overcome the current single point of failure which exists in accessing the North Lynx and Slide Brook chairs.  If Gate House goes down, there's no way to get theah from heah.  While a traverse from Castlerock wouldn't be optimal, it would at least be the start of a solution there.  Furthermore, when one wants to go from the Castlerock/Heaven's Gate trail pods to North Lynx or back to Mt Ellen, they must go through the already-crowded base area and queue for the Gate House lift with the beginners who would probably appreciate shorter lift lines.

3) Any plans to expand Allyn's Lodge?  That place gets crowded, especially on colder days. Not only can you not find a seat on those days, the line for food becomes intolerably long.  You really should do something more with that fantastic building.

4) Any chance for a warming hut at the confluence of Gate House, North Lnyx, and SBX?  Again, it's about keeping people out of the base area during the day and maximizing the use of Gate House for beginners who are the key to your future.


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## awf170 (Jun 24, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> So we have a sugarbush thread... now what do we do?
> 
> Here's a thought-provoker: 2 foot dump last night, let's say it's midseason so you're fully in shape and everything. You hurry up to Sugarbush (North or South, your pick) to get first chair. Which trail/glade do you hit first? Keep it on-map, makes it a bit more challenging...
> 
> Me, I say Paradise. No, I've never ridden it, but I've only heard great things, especially on pow days.


the unmarked glades of paradise or the the trail paradise


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Also, I'm kind of bummed that I missed the opportunity to ask questions in this thread, b/c SB is my home mountain.  That's what I get for not looking at AZ for a few days.  What the heck - I'll throw some out anyway and see if JJ can get to them.
> 
> 1) I've seen plans to replace the Valley House double with a high speed quad while extending the base terminal downhill to where the rental shop has been.  Clearly the goal is to increase the out of base lift capacity so that the Super Bravo and Gate House quads aren't overwhelmed as they usually are on busy weekend/holiday mornings.  But this plan concerns me for two reasons.  First, the current intersection with the Valley House traverse and the top terminal of the VH lift is a disaster.  The traverse gets scraped down to bare ice by 10:30AM and I see multiple collisions and near misses every day I'm there.  Aren't you concerned that a quad would exacerbate this problem?  Second, the trails in that pod are already quite heavily used, especially Spring Fling and Snowball/Racers Edge.  Why would you want to double lift capacity for a pod with two crowded snowmaking trails, and four expert/upper intermediate natural trails that can't handle many more skiers as it is?  Throw in the fact that half of Spring Fling is often closed and you really are setting yourselves up for a diminution of the skiing experience.  Lift lines are, by and large, not a big problem at SB.  Why go for the sexy marketing coup at the expense of the skiing experience?
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Good questions Tin, though I'm not sure he'll get to them - hopefully, like many AZ Challenge responders, he'll come on here after... a few thoughts of my own:

1) In my opinion, having a more accessible lift going to that part of the mountain will in my opinion cut down on much of the traffic on the Valley House Traverse, and thus, at least partially solve the ice and traffic problems up there now. Those who want a quick ride to Stein's/Snowball/Eden/what have you are now going to have an easy, fast option to get to those trails, instead of the pain in the @$$ shlep that it is right now to get there. They won't even need to traverse over from bravo. Those who want to access trails on the bravo side will just ride bravo. Because of this, I think that actually will help the problems of the intersection at the top of the current VH, by splitting the traffic to different sides of the mountain. Valley House Traverse will become much less used, though I think that Reverse Traverse will see more use, by people who didn't want to wait in the Bravo lines who still want to get over to that side and access Heaven's Gate/Castlerock. However, seeing as the VHQ will get less traffic than Bravo, and thus, shorter lines pretty much all the time, it seems unlikely that the same principle would work in reverse, that is, people doing the current option of taking Bravo and traversing over. In regards to overloading trail capacity on that side of the mountain: yes, that could be an issue, but I just don't see people flocking to that side of the mountain just because it's easy - it's just as easy to go up Super Bravo, which accesses much more terrain. I think that there will really be the same amount of people coming to the Valley House side of the mountain as there are now, they'll just be able to get there a little easier, and without the traffic problems that currently plague the top of the Valley House. So I think an HSQ for the Valley House is actually a good idea: the problem with congestion at the top of the lift is solved, and people have an easier and more enjoyable time getting there - I just don't see the name as applicable anymore, seeing as there will no longer be a Valley House. 

2) Just pointing out that a trail from the top of Middle Earth to the North Lynx base would be far from a traverse - that would be quite steep in places. However, a much shorter, flatter option would be parallel to the upper portion of Castlerock Connection, just a bit above it; a small bridge would probably be required, as it would cross a stream. Such a trail would involve funneling more people through Castlerock though, where many people don't want to be, and would only solve the problem of only one way existing to Slide Brook/North Lynx for Castlerock skiers. 

3) I agree, Allyn's Lodge could definitely use expansion, though that might require knocking down a portion of it; unfortunately, that's kinda on the back burner at the moment, seeing as what they're busy with now...

4) I agree about the warming hut too - put that giant trail map and tables inside there, give people a place to chill (er, warm up). Even a yurt would probably suffice. That seems like a much easier point to address than Allyn's.


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## awf170 (Jun 24, 2005)

is that you strat :wink: 






i need a snazzy new avatar


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## awf170 (Jun 24, 2005)

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ohhh i see, you saw on map so your talking about the trail, oh ya it is sick... didnt seem to get any pics of it.


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> is that you strat :wink:
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Hah, wish that was me...   

Not exactly digging your kitty there, but to each his own, haha...


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## awf170 (Jun 24, 2005)

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That hurts


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

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Hah, just kidding austin... do prefer the new one though...


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## awf170 (Jun 24, 2005)

heres a cool one i found


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## Strat (Jun 24, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> heres a cool one i found



Tres tres cool.  8)


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 27, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Good questions Tin, though I'm not sure he'll get to them - hopefully, like many AZ Challenge responders, he'll come on here after... a few thoughts of my own:
> 
> 1) In my opinion, having a more accessible lift going to that part of the mountain will in my opinion cut down on much of the traffic on the Valley House Traverse, and thus, at least partially solve the ice and traffic problems up there now. Those who want a quick ride to Stein's/Snowball/Eden/what have you are now going to have an easy, fast option to get to those trails, instead of the pain in the @$$ shlep that it is right now to get there. They won't even need to traverse over from bravo. Those who want to access trails on the bravo side will just ride bravo. Because of this, I think that actually will help the problems of the intersection at the top of the current VH, by splitting the traffic to different sides of the mountain. Valley House Traverse will become much less used, though I think that Reverse Traverse will see more use, by people who didn't want to wait in the Bravo lines who still want to get over to that side and access Heaven's Gate/Castlerock. However, seeing as the VHQ will get less traffic than Bravo, and thus, shorter lines pretty much all the time, it seems unlikely that the same principle would work in reverse, that is, people doing the current option of taking Bravo and traversing over. In regards to overloading trail capacity on that side of the mountain: yes, that could be an issue, but I just don't see people flocking to that side of the mountain just because it's easy - it's just as easy to go up Super Bravo, which accesses much more terrain. I think that there will really be the same amount of people coming to the Valley House side of the mountain as there are now, they'll just be able to get there a little easier, and without the traffic problems that currently plague the top of the Valley House. So I think an HSQ for the Valley House is actually a good idea: the problem with congestion at the top of the lift is solved, and people have an easier and more enjoyable time getting there - I just don't see the name as applicable anymore, seeing as there will no longer be a Valley House.
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I see your point on #1, but I'm not sure I agree.  HSQs are sexy marketing beasts for a reason - they draw traffic.  Even if the lift-line is so long that an adjacent fixed-grip lift provides a faster ride to the top, people will still pile into the HSQ line b/c of the perceived benefits.  I believe that while you'd a decrease in traffic from people coming over on the VH traverse, you'd see a lot more in that area in general, probably taken from the SB, GH, and NL lifts.  Most of the people drawn to this lift won't the the experts who already love that pod for its classic New England trails and bump lines, but beginners and intermediates who think the HSQ is sexy and want to access Snowball/Spring Fling more easily.  I think those trails will become a disaster while Moonshine, being the only other intermediate trail in the area, will get over run with people in over their head on a trail that skis a lot harder than mot blue squares.  Even worse, I could see this leading to the installation of snowmaking on Moonshine, Twist and the Mall, which would really ruin the quality of skiing on those fantastic natural trails.  They can be boney at times with their low elevation, but when the snow is decent, there are few better trails on the mountain.

2) I see your point regarding a possible Castlerock/North Lynx connector - my muted route would be way to steep.  Regardless, some sort of connector, be it lower down on Middle Earth, or terminating higher up on Birch Run, would have value. I would prefer the latter option b/c if you can start the traverse before ME makes that right turn down the fall line, you are essentially avoiding the toughest parts of that trail.  And, as you point out, it would help address the problem I raise.  It would probably draw more people to Castlerock at the margin, but that's not going to make a huge impact b/c the lift has so little capacity anyway.  Regardless, it would be nice for some who has come over from North to be able to get to and from Castlerock, SB's signature terrain, more easily than at present, before returnign from whence they came.

3) I don't think you'd necessarily have to knock down portions of the current Allyn's Lodge to expand it.  Why not add space downhill of where the ski patrol room is?  Modification of the roof would be needed for sure, but I don't know if you'd have to do a great degree of damage to the beautiful existing structure to add space.  Make it shaped like a "T" or "L" with the additiona oriented N to S and encomassing the area where the ski racks and back deck are.  Also, why not expand the part of the deck that faces South for a grea lunch spot in Feb and March?


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## Lostone (Jun 27, 2005)

1)  I think a HSQ is going to be terrible to that side of the hill.  There will be way too many people on Snowball.  It will become an ice rink.

b)  I ain't riding Castlerock to ski North Lynx!   :wink: 

III)  There's some room for expansion out back, but my biggest wish for the lodge would be better food service, which is already started, but needs to be improved.

I think the size of it limiting the crowd is a good thing. It is nice to have a cozy oldge, and when it is too crowded, there are others.  I'd rather have to find them at times than hurt the ambience of what we have.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Also, I'm kind of bummed that I missed the opportunity to ask questions in this thread, b/c SB is my home mountain.  That's what I get for not looking at AZ for a few days.  What the heck - I'll throw some out anyway and see if JJ can get to them.



Yep, important to keep an eye on things  :wink: 

Luckily I've been so busy lately that I have yet to send the questions out, so I can add them for you


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## noski (Jun 27, 2005)

*SB/MRG joint passes*



			
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Actually MRG & SB do offer a joint Ski The Valley pass, that also can be used at Ole's. However it is meant to drive midweek overnight stays, so can only be obtained as part of a lodging package....


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 27, 2005)

> Luckily I've been so busy lately that I have yet to send the questions out, so I can add them for you



Thanks trailboss.  Good show.

Lostone - 

I wouldn't ride Castlerock to get to North Lynx per se.  There are two situations where I'd make an exception.  First, if I was skiing in the Castlerock pod already and wanted/needed to get to North Lynx/Slide Brook Express/top of Gate House, why would I want to ski to the bottom of Castlerock and the runout, hoof it over to Gate House and then wait in that line before riding the lift?  That's a 20-30 minute trek.  Or what if Gate House is closed due to mechanical reasons?  Happened once that I recall on a busy weekend this year.  I wanted to hit North Lynx area for a few runs (others needed to get back to North) and I was SOL.  I could have made it over there via Castlerock.  Sure it would have taken a good 30-45 mins by the time I got up Super Bravo and down then up Castlerock, but it's better than sitting around or waiting in line for the shuttle to North.

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that the more people you can keep on the upper mountain, the better off you'll be in general.  The only lifts that see crowds consistently are Gate House and Super Bravo - why not try and alleviate that to the greatest degree possible while improving mountain circulation and convenience?

And as for Allyn's - yeaa, it's a space issue as much as it's a food service quality issue.  That one person up there gets overwhelmed with everyone seeking shelter from the cold on those brutal Jan/Feb days.  Then the food runs out fairly quickly and everyone gets upset.  My girlfriend waited in line for 30 minutes one Saturday last year.  For a wet sandwich and a banana.  That isn't acceptable under any circumstances for a busines that is in the hospitality industry and not named Disney.


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## Strat (Jun 27, 2005)

Reading over various posts... starting to agree about the valley house HSQ idea... glad that got in the challenge, looking forward to seeing the responses...


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## Lostone (Jun 27, 2005)

> Happened once that I recall on a busy weekend this year. I wanted to hit North Lynx area for a few runs (others needed to get back to North) and I was SOL.



As I remember...  I was on North Lynx then.  Snow was great and nobody could get to me.  Life doesn't always suck.   :lol:  :wink: 

As for the food service at Allyn's, did that get onto the challenge questions?

Noski, good to see you over here.  Seems like the RSN board is broken.    Sent them an email last week.  Haven't heard anything.   :roll:


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## noski (Jun 28, 2005)

*just visiting*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> Noski, good to see you over here.  Seems like the RSN board is broken.    Sent them an email last week.  Haven't heard anything.   :roll:



Thanks, Lostone. Visiting here is like being in reception hall with cathedral ceilings. I kind of liked our former back-porch-around-the-grill location.  Maybe you will see me at the Warren 4th, with 8,000 of my closest friends. :beer:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2005)

Yeah, guys I tried many times to put an announcement on RSN regarding this challenge, but they are not taking any new submissions for some odd reason...maybe the guys at Whiteface finally scared them off.  

The Wachusett room is not working either...oh well...you are all welcome here :wink:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2005)

Hey, great to have you here, noski!


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## skibum1321 (Jun 28, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> So we have a sugarbush thread... now what do we do?
> 
> Here's a thought-provoker: 2 foot dump last night, let's say it's midseason so you're fully in shape and everything. You hurry up to Sugarbush (North or South, your pick) to get first chair. Which trail/glade do you hit first? Keep it on-map, makes it a bit more challenging...
> 
> Me, I say Paradise. No, I've never ridden it, but I've only heard great things, especially on pow days.



Although I probably wouldn't be on a marked trail, I would say probably Rumble or Liftline


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 28, 2005)

It's got to be Liftline for me, assuming the ride up indicates that the top part hasn't been scoured down to bedrock per usual.  That trail is nothing but fun with deep snow on it as you can just billy goat from one outcrop to the next with no repurcussions.  Rumble is fun too, but unless you have a super deep snowfall, thhe bumps and rocks that had built up before the storm will be felt lurking underneath.


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## Lostone (Jun 28, 2005)

Noski, I usderstand what you mean about the around the grill site. I'm hoping enough of the folks who used to gather around the grill will have copied the trail of breadcrumbs to find their way over here.  

I'll be there on the fourth. Unless it is raining, I'll have my orange and grey camera bag, and will likely be shooting.  :wink: 

I was going to ask if they were going to run the busses, but I saw signs up at the Lincoln base, today.  That's a good thing. Just can's see all those people driving there.   8) 

And as for which trail first, depends on how much snow and what time.  If it is a weekend, only Bravo is open at 8:00, and I'm on the first few chairs.  If it is later, other lifts will open at the same time...  and I will be on the first few chairs.

I'll usually try to blast a few on the fast lifts before spending the time on the others.  Sure it isn't Paradise, but it is POWDAH!! :beer: 

Those who've seen me on powder mornings know I cover my ground.   :wink:


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## noski (Jun 29, 2005)

*July 4*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I'll be there on the fourth. Unless it is raining, I'll have my orange and grey camera bag, and will likely be shooting.  :wink:
> 
> I was going to ask if they were going to run the busses, but I saw signs up at the Lincoln base, today.  That's a good thing. Just can's see all those people driving there.



Bus will run from Yestermorrow as well on July 4. I will look for the camera bag. You know it never rains on our parade. I am in charge of weather, part of my job you know- so don't worry. :wink:


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 29, 2005)

I think it also depends on the wind direction for choosing where to go.  Lincoln Peak has nearly 270 degrees of skiing in its massive basin.  As a result, a Noreaster (with E to NE winds) will create a radically different pattern of wind scouring than your typical 6-10" clipper storm coming in from the W or NW.  I've skied powder days where the north facing trails off of Super Bravo and Valley House were miserable with bulltproof snow in the trees while at the same time Castlerock and North Lynx were going off.  I've also seen the exact opposite.  It's truly amazing what aspect and elevation can do.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 29, 2005)

Welcome Noski...we do know eachother...lol

Allyn's Lodge has really pretty much been a non-factor for many years. During ASC days they trucked food up there everyday so all they had were some bad sandwiches, pastries and hot chocalate if they were having a good day. Summit has already upgraded is so they can actually cook and looking at it's usuage I don't think you need to make it any bigger.  What a spot!

As far as the new Lincoln Base Lodge they just need to make it big enough for crowded weekends, a GOOD ventilation system and make it a nice place to take a break.

Everytine I look up at LP I see alot of space between Castlerock and Heavens Gate. Maybe a slow lift with MRG type terrain with both intermediate and advanced terrain good go in there. Take just a part of that space so as to not disturb the Church.


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## noski (Jun 29, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Welcome Noski...we do know eachother...lol



yes, well, your spelling patterns are eerily familiar...Get back to work, slacker...lol back atcha.


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## Lostone (Jun 29, 2005)

> Welcome Noski...we do know eachother...lol



 :-?   But...  Are you one of her 8000 closest friends?   :wink: 



> I think it also depends on the wind direction for choosing where to go.



Yes, and that's why I never decide before I'm on the lift.  Riding up, I scour the trails.  
"Does that look groomed?"
"What's the wind direction?"
Is that powder or drift snow?"

All important questiond before the fronts of the skis touch the ramp at the top.  But by then, the decision is made and I'm in instant motion.  Usually I have an alternate plan, too...  just in case of surprises.  :wink: 

I  remeber one day las season I got off Bravo and there was this giant pile of "powder"  I blasted half way thru it.       :lol:


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 29, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Welcome Noski...we do know eachother...lol
> 
> Allyn's Lodge has really pretty much been a non-factor for many years. During ASC days they trucked food up there everyday so all they had were some bad sandwiches, pastries and hot chocalate if they were having a good day. Summit has already upgraded is so they can actually cook and looking at it's usuage I don't think you need to make it any bigger.  What a spot!
> 
> ...



Allyn's gets extremely crowded on cold weekends.  I don't think it needs a massive expansion into a full fledged mid-mountain lodge, just about 20-30 more seats.  And a better commitment to food service on the weekends.  It's still lackluster with only prepared sandwiches, hot chocolate, and some snacks.

A lift between where you describe is a bad idea, IMHO.  Not much intermediate terrain in there at all, so it would really only add to the abundant expert stuff.  And of course you'd ruin a lot of good skiing too.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 29, 2005)

*lackluster*

It's a shame that the food service at AL has not improved much. The new F&B guy seems to know what he's doing. It's in such a sweet location. One of the few times I have gone in there it was very cold all I wanted was a hot cup of jo, no luck, they ran out.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Yeah, on paper a lift in between Castlerock and Heavens Gate would be cool but I don't think it would work out too well.  Look at Ripcord--they have to blow lots of snow on it and it still gets icy.  Some good pitch in there, but with the trees, there is some protection from the wind and elements to keep snow deep...


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## Strat (Jun 30, 2005)

IMO, the best place for new lift/trail development is (as has been discussed many times before), above Inverness... just from sun angles and the slope of the hillside it seems like there would be the potential for a great north lynx-y type area... unfortunately it's so close to mad river glen that the shareholders would have a fit if Sugarbush ever showed any interest in development up there... plus that land is probably privately owned...


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## awf170 (Jun 30, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> IMO, the best place for new lift/trail development is (as has been discussed many times before), above Inverness... just from sun angles and the slope of the hillside it seems like there would be the potential for a great north lynx-y type area... unfortunately it's so close to mad river glen that the shareholders would have a fit if Sugarbush ever showed any interest in development up there... plus that land is probably privately owned...



there was a lift planned there right, and even cut :-?
this is what ur talking about right





and nice website


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, as we've discussed in here and on RSN, this expansion has an interesting history.  :wink:  It was conceived back in the days of yore...when Ellen was independent, men were men, and well...OK..it was back in the 1960's and 1970's.

The owner of Ellen began cutting the liftline and was stopped when he realized after the fact that he DID NOT own the land   .  So, there it sits....an overgrown liftline that one can see from German Flats Road and from other vantage points. It is that little clearing on the left as one goes down Upper Brambles/Inverness (I believe where GMVS sets up a starting area). 

Rumor was that the old Ellen owner was considering merging with MRG and this was part of the plan...if only he owned the land  :roll: 

But that's now history.  SB did what any good company would do to their competition...buy them out...and then replaced the lifts with a HSQ, two quads, added snowmaking, and bulldozed/flattened/tamed the terrain   

Ellen now has pretty much all QUADS and is still underused and uncrowded (a good thing  :wink: ).  Great big mountain, great terrain, great views.  From the distance, Ellen's imposing face is impressive.  From the back, she's quite mellow.  

OK, getting too sentimental...missing my days on Ellen!  :wink:


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## noski (Jun 30, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> From the distance, Ellen's imposing face is impressive.  From the back, she's quite mellow.



hmmm, I bet, Lostone, you know some women like that...


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 30, 2005)

*Mt Ellen lift*

I was going to put a link to the Snow Journal thread about this lift but the thread does go off tangent a few times, that never happens here...lol, so I am just going to copy and paste my post which is basically a copy and paste as well. lol

<< Here is some info about the mystery lift. Easier to copy and paste the info from an email I got from Eric Freidman.

>In terms of the lift I have seen this all before and have spoken about it with Ken Quackenbush, MRG’s GM from about 1951 to about 1992. He told me that Glen Ellen went forward with the idea and actually cut the lift line prior to getting state permits which were later denied. Apparently MRG had the same idea of utilizing the same mountain top, except coming at it with a lift from the Mad River Barn.

I recall a great conversation with Ken several years ago. He commented at the time that Glen Ellen was built that there was not enough business to support 3 mountains in the valley. History has proven that he was probably right.<

From the topo the terminal for both proposed lifts that Eric talks about is the highest point of Stark. Looks to be 200 vf higher than MRG's current summit elevation.

It was nice to get a reply from Eric Friedman regarding my email about the lift in question. >>


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## Lostone (Jun 30, 2005)

:angry: Noski...  You been following me around???   :angry: 

 :lol:   :blink:  :lol:  


_ Actually, that's the closest I do get to women following me around. _


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 30, 2005)

> IMO, the best place for new lift/trail development is (as has been discussed many times before), above Inverness... just from sun angles and the slope of the hillside it seems like there would be the potential for a great north lynx-y type area... unfortunately it's so close to mad river glen that the shareholders would have a fit if Sugarbush ever showed any interest in development up there... plus that land is probably privately owned...



It definitely would be "North Lynx-y".  If you take a look on a winter afternoon, that area of he the mountain remains in the afternoon sun until very late in the day while the rest of Ellen is in the shadows.  Solid upper intermediate to advanced pitch with about 1,100 vertical, as compared to about 800 for North Lynx. More importantly, just as at Lincoln Peak, it would really have helped to spread out the traffic on the mountain.  Currently, the Inverness chair and terrain are probably underutilized in comparison to the rest of the hill.  GMVS usually closes 1-2 of the 4 ways down the hill there and the quad is an unexciting (compared to the rest of the lift system) and slow fixed grip.  If you had a terrain pod up top, I'm sure (as with Gate House) the Inverness lift would be detatchable and it would be the entree to a solid 2,100 vertical feet of terrain that is sunny and perfect for upper intermediates.  In short, you'd be drawing a lot more people to that side of the mountain. 

Regardless, while MRG wouldn't be able to stop it (it's not their land), I'm sure there are any number of hurdles that would be put up by others that would prevent such an expansion from ever coming to reality.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> It definitely would be "North Lynx-y".  If you take a look on a winter afternoon, that area of he the mountain remains in the afternoon sun until very late in the day while the rest of Ellen is in the shadows.  Solid upper intermediate to advanced pitch with about 1,100 vertical, as compared to about 800 for North Lynx. More importantly, just as at Lincoln Peak, it would really have helped to spread out the traffic on the mountain.



Yeah, it would be cool.  




> Currently, the Inverness chair and terrain are probably underutilized in comparison to the rest of the hill.  GMVS usually closes 1-2 of the 4 ways down the hill there and the quad is an unexciting (compared to the rest of the lift system) and slow fixed grip.  If you had a terrain pod up top, I'm sure (as with Gate House) the Inverness lift would be detatchable and it would be the entree to a solid 2,100 vertical feet of terrain that is sunny and perfect for upper intermediates.  In short, you'd be drawing a lot more people to that side of the mountain.



Yep, most underutilized area at SB.  Too much lift capacity as well...not enough skiers/riders...some good terrain though.  Just wish that GMVS wouldn't close the whole place down when they train     I like those narrow trails on the right as you ski down Inverness....cool runs.  Long as well.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 30, 2005)

> In terms of the lift I have seen this all before and have spoken about it with Ken Quackenbush, MRG’s GM from about 1951 to about 1992. He told me that Glen Ellen went forward with the idea and actually cut the lift line prior to getting state permits which were later denied. Apparently MRG had the same idea of utilizing the same mountain top, except coming at it with a lift from the Mad River Barn.
> 
> I recall a great conversation with Ken several years ago. He commented at the time that Glen Ellen was built that there was not enough business to support 3 mountains in the valley. History has proven that he was probably right.<
> 
> From the topo the terminal for both proposed lifts that Eric talks about is the highest point of Stark. Looks to be 200 vf higher than MRG's current summit elevation.



A lift from the Mad River Barn to the summit of Stark Mt would have been the single greatest lift in Eastern skiing bar none.  2,500 vertical of mostly expert terrain that is consistently tough for at least 3/4 of the way, all facing NE.  Never gonna happen.  

And the true summit of Stark Mt is only 20 vf higher than MRG's current summit, not 200.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> A lift from the Mad River Barn to the summit of Stark Mt would have been the single greatest lift in Eastern skiing bar none.  2,500 vertical of mostly expert terrain that is consistently tough for at least 3/4 of the way, all facing NE.  Never gonna happen.
> 
> And the true summit of Stark Mt is only 20 vf higher than MRG's current summit, not 200.



That would have been sweet!!!  Maybe instead of the single chair, MRG could do this... :wink:


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## dmc (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm really digging this thread...

I love Sugarbush...

Keep it going guys!!! :beer:


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 30, 2005)

> I like those narrow trails on the right as you ski down Inverness....cool runs. Long as well.



Semi-Tough - my favorite trail in VT, if not of all time.  Perfect pitch.  Fantastic width to retain snow and keep it interesting.  4-5 turns in the ego bumps, then it backs off to allow you to catch your breath before turning a corner where another little field of ego bumps is revealed.  Wash, rinse repeat.  Pure ecstasy.


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## bvibert (Jun 30, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> > I like those narrow trails on the right as you ski down Inverness....cool runs. Long as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Semi-Tough - my favorite trail in VT, if not of all time.  Perfect pitch.  Fantastic width to retain snow and keep it interesting.  4-5 turns in the ego bumps, then it backs off to allow you to catch your breath before turning a corner where another little field of ego bumps is revealed.  Wash, rinse repeat.  Pure ecstasy.



Definately a cool trail!  When I was there late last year the race team was training all day and Semi-Tough was still open...


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> > I like those narrow trails on the right as you ski down Inverness....cool runs. Long as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Semi-Tough - my favorite trail in VT, if not of all time.  Perfect pitch.  Fantastic width to retain snow and keep it interesting.  4-5 turns in the ego bumps, then it backs off to allow you to catch your breath before turnign a corner where another little field of ego bumps is revealed.  Wash, rinse repeat.  Pure exactasy.



Yeah, why I love Mt Ellen so much and SB for that matter.  Great run, not well trodden, but it's there and great.  I can ski Ellen all day and not get bored when there is snow.  I love Lower FIS personally...some great pitch and nice narrow chute sections.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 30, 2005)

> Yeah, why I love Mt Ellen so much and SB for that matter. Great run, not well trodden, but it's there and great. I can ski Ellen all day and not get bored when there is snow. I love Lower FIS personally...some great pitch and nice narrow chute sections.



Not a huge fan of Lower FIS due to its width (far to wide, enabling wind to scrape all the snow off) and flat/uphill run-out at the bottom.  Another pipe dream I've had is to run a chair from the 1,800 ft elevation on that trail up to either the Cliff House at 3,000 ft or the top of Mt Ellen at 4,083.  Good times either way and would provide legit expert terrain for Ellen (Upper FIS, Black Diamond and Upper Exterminator are too short to want to do laps ala Castlerock or even Heaven's Gate)


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> > Yeah, why I love Mt Ellen so much and SB for that matter. Great run, not well trodden, but it's there and great. I can ski Ellen all day and not get bored when there is snow. I love Lower FIS personally...some great pitch and nice narrow chute sections.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a huge fan of Lower FIS due to its width (far to wide, enabling wind to scrape all the snow off) and flat/uphill run-out at the bottom.  Another pipe dream I've had is to run a chair from the 1,800 ft elevation on that trail up to either the Cliff House at 3,000 ft or the top of Mt Ellen at 4,083.  Good times either way and would provide legit expert terrain for Ellen (Upper FIS, Black Diamond and Upper Exterminator are too short to want to do laps ala Castlerock or even Heaven's Gate)



Again, another great idea!!  When AZ buys Sugarbush, we're making Tin Woodsman the new ski area designer :wink:

Seriously though, that would be sick.  Yeah, I guess there are sections of Lower FIS that do get windswept, but I still like it after some freshies.  

This thread is on fire!


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

I posted back on Snowjournal and Slowclimb about this lift line cut earlier in the year.  I know people who have skied it before, but they said it was quite brushy now.  I tried to find a navagatable path up it this winter, but I was running out of daylight so I didn't get too far.  I really want to explore this route more though, as it could yeild some good skiing.  (the woods are pretty thin up there and are already good for some flatter tree skiing  )

dave


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## awf170 (Jun 30, 2005)

does every single person who lives in the MRV post on this forum. it seems like half our users are from there, and when i drove through it looked like there were only like 10 houses, plenty of cows though


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> does every single person who lives in the MRV post on this forum. it seems like half our users are from there, and when i drove through it looked like there were only like 10 houses, plenty of cows though



nope.  Only those of us who are bored in cubicle land rather than enjoying being outside recreating in the MRV!  Remember, when in VT, there are waaay more houses in off of the main roads than what you can see from the main roads  (I think you were kidding but I had to clarify anyway!)  

I just can't wait to get up there in 'dem dar mountains and ski sum more!

dave


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 30, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> does every single person who lives in the MRV post on this forum. it seems like half our users are from there, and when i drove through it looked like there were only like 10 houses, plenty of cows though



I think you are confusing Jeffersonville with Waitsfield... :lol: All these years you have been skiing Smuggs thinking it was Sugarbush.  :lol:


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> awf170 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no kidding.. I grew up in Jericho and Jeffersonville and Jeff. definately represents his comments  Maybe he saw the cows by Kenyons and thought that was the whole valley  :lol:


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 30, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> I posted back on Snowjournal and Slowclimb about this lift line cut earlier in the year.  I know people who have skied it before, but they said it was quite brushy now.  I tried to find a navagatable path up it this winter, but I was running out of daylight so I didn't get too far.  I really want to explore this route more though, as it could yeild some good skiing.  (the woods are pretty thin up there and are already good for some flatter tree skiing  )



That's not surprising about the alleged quality of the tree skiing up that way.  IIRC, it's mostly hardwoods until you get to the top 200-300 verts or so, but that could be off.  If that's the case, then I'd venture to say that the old liftline probably has the worst skiing up in that area.  A buddy of mine skied the line in the epic year of 2000-2001 and said it was so grown in that he had to hike back up and out.  Total and complete lockdown - Alcatraz style.  Mind you, the snow was so deep at Sugarbush that year that I know people where skiing ON TOP of the younger pine trees to skier's left of the top of Sunrise.  Those trees are 15 feet tall these days.

In short, I doubt it's worth your time.  Lines to the left and right of that cut, however, are a different story altogether.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

Yeah, 2000-2001 was a sick season...I remember it quite often.  Snowed like every day.


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Yeah, 2000-2001 was a sick season...I remember it quite often.  Snowed like every day.



yup... I was skiing lines at Smuggs that year that I would have never thought anyone could due to the snow depths

dave


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2005)

We just need another season like it :wink:


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

That's not surprising about the alleged quality of the tree skiing up that way.  IIRC, it's mostly hardwoods until you get to the top 200-300 verts or so, but that could be off.  If that's the case, then I'd venture to say that the old liftline probably has the worst skiing up in that area.  A buddy of mine skied the line in the epic year of 2000-2001 and said it was so grown in that he had to hike back up and out.  Total and complete lockdown - Alcatraz style.  Mind you, the snow was so deep at Sugarbush that year that I know people where skiing ON TOP of the younger pine trees to skier's left of the top of Sunrise.  Those trees are 15 feet tall these days.

In short, I doubt it's worth your time.  Lines to the left and right of that cut, however, are a different story altogether.[/quote]

yah, I know it isn't all that worth it, but it would be fun just to find it and navigate down thru.  My goal was to bushwack from MRG across the ridge along the Long Trail, then pop onto the lift cut and ski down to the bush.  Of corse this won't happen if the brush is too thick.  oh well!


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## djspookman (Jun 30, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> We just need another season like it :wink:



ditto!


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## awf170 (Jun 30, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1969 wouldnt be bad either(600+ inches of snow on mt washington)


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## Lostone (Jul 1, 2005)

A year like that would_* not *_be good!

People might start to enjoy skiing.    


:blink: 


 :lol:


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## Lostone (Jul 1, 2005)

And as to the trails next to Inverness, it is because of the nature of those trails that I regret losing Brambles.  

Those are real New England trails and a lot of fun to ski.  I like Walt's, too.  Great place to hide on a crowded afternoon.

And as mentioned above, very like North Lynx as someplace to play in the sun, almost all day.   :beer:


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## Strat (Jul 3, 2005)

Wow, man, this thread took off... looking forward to the responses coming in from the AZ challenge... yeah, I've read lots about the MRG connector cut before, just thought it'd be nice to throw it out there and try to get some more discussion on it, and it worked...

Austin, just wondering, where did you pull the old north map from? I only know of two places, nelsap and my site, that have it on, just interested, especially if it's my site, haha...


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## Lostone (Jul 3, 2005)

I think it was from your site.  If you check the address in properties.

But he also said at the bottom that it was a nice site, so it's ok, right?   :wink: 

And I agree that it is good.  I've seen some of the maps elsewhere, but you have the dates, while they (I believe) just had the maps in some cases.)   :beer:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 3, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Austin, just wondering, where did you pull the old north map from? I only know of two places, nelsap and my site, that have it on, just interested, especially if it's my site, haha...



I think 'Daevious' has some good Sugarbush stuff as well...www.daevious.com I believe?


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## awf170 (Jul 3, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Wow, man, this thread took off... looking forward to the responses coming in from the AZ challenge... yeah, I've read lots about the MRG connector cut before, just thought it'd be nice to throw it out there and try to get some more discussion on it, and it worked...
> 
> Austin, just wondering, where did you pull the old north map from? I only know of two places, nelsap and my site, that have it on, just interested, especially if it's my site, haha...



ya it was your site


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## Strat (Jul 4, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yay... yeah, forgot about daev's site, was caught up in the potential glory....    8)


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## thetrailboss (Jul 5, 2005)

Well, getting back to our favorite SB runs, I think that most of the folks from the old RSN room will recall that the room agreed that *Zip* is a pretty hot trail!  If not that, *Spread Eagle*.  Both are just great examples of the world class terrain that we love and enjoy at SB North :lol: :wink:


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## Strat (Jul 5, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Well, getting back to our favorite SB runs, I think that most of the folks from the old RSN room will recall that the room agreed that *Zip* is a pretty hot trail!  If not that, *Spread Eagle*.  Both are just great examples of the world class terrain that we love and enjoy at SB North :lol: :wink:


Oh clearly, can't forget those... 

Haha, good times in RSN land...


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## noski (Jul 5, 2005)

*Warren 4th of July*

(sorry to go off on a tangent briefly) Did you go to the parade? What did you think? Nearly 6000 Buddy Badges were sold at $1 each. That says good turnout. What did you like best? Lostone, I looked for your camera bag... but alas.


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## Strat (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: Warren 4th of July*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> (sorry to go off on a tangent briefly) Did you go to the parade? What did you think? Nearly 6000 Buddy Badges were sold at $1 each. That says good turnout. What did you like best? Lostone, I looked for your camera bag... but alas.


I've missed it the last 3 years unfortunately, being at camps, did this year too, definitely miss it... how was the traffic situation at the access road bridge? I'm sure this was heavily discussed already, just wondering, how did they work around that? German Flats-Inferno Road-West Hill?


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## noski (Jul 5, 2005)

*Re: Warren 4th of July*



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> I've missed it the last 3 years unfortunately, being at camps, did this year too, definitely miss it... how was the traffic situation at the access road bridge? I'm sure this was heavily discussed already, just wondering, how did they work around that? German Flats-Inferno Road-West Hill?



ahhh- got the key from AOT, switched to blinking red/yellow and stationed an officer to direct traffic. Once rush was over, turned the signal back on and all was well.... Never underestimate the power of those in noski's circle.... Madbus ran all day to Yestermorrow and Lincoln Peak satellite parking. I think things were real smooth in the traffic department. You did miss another good parade, though.


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## Lostone (Jul 5, 2005)

> Lostone, I looked for your camera bag... but alas.



But alas...  you saw it and hid!   :angry:     :wink: 

You're not the first to hide from me.  There's a long line.  Where the heck is 2438?  Still looking.  

Good times.  Saw a number of people I know, and I really don't know anyone.  

Took over 100 pix.  Will get some of them up in the near future.  Will post in this thread, when I have.  

Some pix from last year's parade, here: http://groups.msn.com/JimsSceneryPix/warrenparade2004.msnw

Who did I like?  Michael Jackson with the Free Daycare sign?  Battle of the Georges?  No...   It was the depends group.   :lol:


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## Lostone (Jul 5, 2005)

Oh yeah, and as for Zip, got a pic on Sunday of a bunch of people picnicing just below it.  

Don't they know someone is liable to come down it out of control from such a steep, dangerous trail and hit them??   :roll: 

It is a more difficult trail, ya know!        :lol:


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## daevious (Jul 6, 2005)

*Independence Day*

Well, while we wait for Lostone :wink:, here are some of my photos from the Warren 4th of July Parade.


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## noski (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: Independence Day*



			
				daevious said:
			
		

> Well, while we wait for Lostone :wink:, here are some of my photos from the Warren 4th of July Parade.


Great pics! I was across the street- making your location about 2 o'clock from me. I am hearing great reviews on this year's parade. I have to agree it was a good one. Did anyone notice how clean the town was...? :wink:


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## Lostone (Jul 7, 2005)

:angry: Ignore daevious' pix!   :angry:       :wink: 

Here are the good ones, because...  uh...  I took mine first, so they were fresher!...  

Yeah!  That's the ticket!   :lol: 

I was before him on the route,tho I don't know which o'clock it was because...   I use digital!   :lol:     :roll: 


In any case, here are some of my pix:
http://groups.msn.com/JimsSceneryPix/4thofjulywarrenparade2005.msnw?Page=1

 :beer:


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## Greg (Jul 7, 2005)

Has this thread become the new Sugarbush RSN forum?  :lol: Should we start a "Wachusett" and/or "Adirondacks" thread?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> Has this thread become the new Sugarbush RSN forum?  :lol: Should we start a "Wachusett" and/or "Adirondacks" thread?



You're reading my mind here, Greg.     :wink:


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## noski (Jul 7, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> I was before him on the route,tho I don't know which o'clock it was because...   I use digital!   :lol:     :roll:


Heck, you were so far up the road, you weren't in my time zone, but you weren't too far from Mtn Lady. Good crowd pics, I was able to pick out lots of people I know. The Sugarbush float with the reference to the Sox winning the series and the building of Lincoln Peak fit right in with the Flying Pig float.


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## daevious (Jul 7, 2005)

Nice shots, Lostone! And definitely earlier than mine.

BTW, there were problems this morning with flickr.com (where my photos are hosted). The glitches have been fixed, so if you tried the link earlier today and couldn't see much, you might try again now.


----------



## daevious (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: Independence Day*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> ... Did anyone notice how clean the town was...? :wink:



Almost didn't catch that comment!

Yes, I did notice and I think it was because of some kind and helpful people walking around with trash bags taking people's sandwich wrappers when they finished eating.  :wink:


----------



## noski (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: Independence Day*



			
				daevious said:
			
		

> noski said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


    How absolutely thoughtful... Further question- did you (any of you) prefer the Sugarbush festivities/fireworks the night before the 4th like they did this year, or did you wish they were on the 4th after parade & dance like prior years?


----------



## Lostone (Jul 7, 2005)

> Has this thread become the new Sugarbush RSN forum?  Should we start a "Wachusett" and/or "Adirondacks" thread?



Yes, maybe and no?   :wink: 

Hopefully you don't mind a little extra traffic?  Most of us were here beforehand, but the RSN forum going frozen when the Mad River Forum has gone missing leads to little in the way of options in the way of skiing threads.  

This thread just gives us a way to keep things about Sugarbush and the area sorta confined.  If it is a problem, I think I can come up with another forum.  Just that the others are much less based on outdoor activities and get...   a little more out there in topics, if you know what I mean.

And besides...  Trailboss started it!   :lol:


----------



## Lostone (Jul 7, 2005)

Noski, most of the crowd pix were before the parade started.  I was scouring the crowd for a buddybadge, and figured I had a few good crowd shots.  Always good for getting the feel of things.

I never saw MtnLady there.  Didn't see daevious either, and wouldn't know you. :wink:  Would have said hi, if I did. 

As for the fireworks, I thought the idea of having them on Sunday made a lot more sense, as a lot of people would never have been able to stay, otherwise.

But for me, the choice of going over to North and dealing with that traffic leaving, or missing the fireworks...   Were there fireworks?        :wink:


----------



## noski (Jul 8, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Noski, most of the crowd pix were before the parade started.  I was scouring the crowd for a buddybadge, and figured I had a few good crowd shots.  Always good for getting the feel of things.
> 
> I never saw MtnLady there.  Didn't see daevious either, and wouldn't know you. :wink:  Would have said hi, if I did.
> 
> ...


Daevious figured me out- see his post. Look harder next year- I will be easier to spot than your BuddyBadge Mate. Mtn Lady and I were both looking for the camera bag. I did find my buddy- that was cool.
I hear you about the crowd at Mt.Ellen. Toward the end, cars were turned away- lot was FULL. Bragg Hill offered good viewing. Fireworks will have to be at Mt E again next year due to construction. (oh, and I noticed in another thread that the word 'monoski' has 'noski' in it- that's me: mo-noski)


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> > Has this thread become the new Sugarbush RSN forum?  Should we start a "Wachusett" and/or "Adirondacks" thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, you are all welcome!   :beer:   It's great to see that we can continue discussions about SB and the Valley without Ghostie and his buddies going on a rant about something else  :wink:  :idea: 

I saw some familiar faces, so figured we'd keep the SB discussion going...why stop a good thing?  I've heard a lot of compliments about this thread and heck, you can see there is a lot of interest.  

Feel free to keep it going on this thread or to start other threads (i.e. "Lincoln Peak Progress" or "Castlerock Lovers only")  :wink:


----------



## madskier6 (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: Sugarbush Thread*



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Lostone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm a little late to the party but I'm glad I found you guys here at AZ!  This thread is great.  I'm glad we got rid of the Whiteface boys.

As for the 4th, I liked having the fireworks the night before because otherwise, I would have missed them (as someone else has already said).

Cheers!


----------



## Lostone (Jul 8, 2005)

Actually, most of Ghosty's stuff didn't really bother me, or the other guys either.  The problem was on that format any amount of banter would push other posts off the board.  I just thought it was bad for worthwhile posts to get pushed off by 7th grade drivel.  :angry:

(_But how do you really feel, Jim_?)     

In a format such as this one, they could have their own thread and stay out of everyone else's way.

I expect that if the RSN line is ever restarted, it will be in a format similar to this one.  I only know of one board that is not in a similar format.


----------



## skibum1321 (Jul 11, 2005)

Does anyone else have issues with Sugarbush's exorbitant season pass prices? I just graduated from college and am looking to get my first full adult season pass. While I paid $300 for my Sugarbush pass during college now they want me to pay over $1000. No other resort comes even close to that. While I love Sugarbush, I can get a Smuggs pass for $300 and cannot afford the $1000 for the Bush. That's over a $700 difference. Jay is also significantly less for a full adult pass. Even Stowe, who is known for ripping skiers off is around the same level for a full adult pass and they offer a young adult pass for $700 or $800. It seems to me that Sugarbush would benefit greatly by following Stowe's lead in this category to try and attract the recent college graduates who will someday make enough money to afford that $1000 season pass but are living on limited means for now.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Jul 11, 2005)

*single adult prices*

All the years I sold season passes at the Bush it was a bummer not to be able to offer single adults who are not full time college students much of a deal.

Usually the pricing MO has been to be similar to Stowe. 
If you look at the SP's over the past 6-8 years and compare you will find that Summit is giving people overall a better deal than when the Bush was part of ASC. Remember this was before ASC's All East giveaway. 

I would email Winn Smith as there is always a chance that if enough people advocate for a young adult pass similar to Stowe's you never know. Can't hurt to try.


----------



## Lostone (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's what I did before I bought my condo.

I would buy a pass at Smuggs and a bronze pass at the bush.

The bush opens before Smuggs and, unless we have a fantastic start, you'll get better skiing early, there.  Then, Smuggs usually closes earlier, too.  You still won't be able to ski Saturdays, with the bronze, but you'll be able to get your fix.

During the season, I did Smuggs on Saturdays and the Bush on Sundays and Mondays.  

It will still cost the same, but you'll get more skiing on more diverse terrain.

They won't beat the ASC prices, but they'll both beat the asc crowds both with numbers and temperament.    :wink: 

But I second the idea of sending Winn an email.  He does read them.  And he sees Stowe as his competition.


----------



## Lostone (Jul 16, 2005)

So, speaking of Claybrook, it appears to me that they are preparing the grounds for the next levels of te development, as well as the one coming.  

All of the trees behind the Gatehouse have been pulled out.  The monster that pulled them out left Friday morning.  

They also had a much bigger hole dug at the bottom of Easy Rider, most of which is now filled in.  Rumor has it they were digging up the snowmaking pipes and electric, to move them, but that is only a rumor.  

Anyone know anything?


----------



## djspookman (Jul 18, 2005)

I noticed those trees out behind the Gatehouse as well.. looks like we may finally be able to ski to the super bravo instead of pole-along.  

I heard lots of truck trafic heading up the road this morning, but I don't know anything else as of yet.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2005)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Does anyone else have issues with Sugarbush's exorbitant season pass prices? I just graduated from college and am looking to get my first full adult season pass. While I paid $300 for my Sugarbush pass during college now they want me to pay over $1000. No other resort comes even close to that. While I love Sugarbush, I can get a Smuggs pass for $300 and cannot afford the $1000 for the Bush. That's over a $700 difference. Jay is also significantly less for a full adult pass. Even Stowe, who is known for ripping skiers off is around the same level for a full adult pass and they offer a young adult pass for $700 or $800. It seems to me that Sugarbush would benefit greatly by following Stowe's lead in this category to try and attract the recent college graduates who will someday make enough money to afford that $1000 season pass but are living on limited means for now.



Yep, my concern with them as well and I've been saying it all along...too expensive.  Look to Jay, Burke, MRG or even Bolton for passes...SB too expensive IMHO.  Good terrain and all, but getting overpriced by day or regular season.  

As for me...I've only been to the 'bush on comps or the old Warren Miller promo (now scrapped) since I was a college passholder in 2002-3.  Part of growing up I guess  :roll:


----------



## Strat (Jul 18, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> I noticed those trees out behind the Gatehouse as well.. looks like we may finally be able to ski to the super bravo instead of pole-along.
> 
> I heard lots of truck trafic heading up the road this morning, but I don't know anything else as of yet.


Just wish they'd put up pics on the lincoln peak village website... if they're gonna put the effort into making a "look at the status" page, they might as well update it... really wanna see what it's looking like...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> djspookman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, if you're in the Valley, why not just drive or bike up there and check it out?


----------



## Strat (Jul 18, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't drive myself, 15, only can drive with a parent, and they're working (though I must say I've only had since June 4th and my parents are commending me on how good I am...) biking... yeah it's a bit far from Moretown... as well as the fact that I don't actually have a bike at the moment that fits me... PLUS I'm at camp right now at williams college in MA (academic summer thing)...  coming back on the 26th though, then I'll persuade my mom to accompany me as I drive up...


----------



## Lostone (Jul 18, 2005)

I'll try to get some recent pix up on my site in the next few days.

Will post here when I do.

Stay tuned.   :wink: 



 :idea:   Which is not the same as staying fuzzy.   :beer:       :lol:


----------



## Strat (Jul 19, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> I'll try to get some recent pix up on my site in the next few days.
> 
> Will post here when I do.
> 
> ...


Merci lostone.  8)


----------



## Lostone (Jul 22, 2005)

*Claybrook Progress pix*

OK, took a little longer than I expected.

I was going to do a chronological order kinda thing with explanations, but started to get the feeling that the pix would make the website after Claybrook was fully inhabited.   :roll: 

So Here:
http://groups.msn.com/JimsSceneryPix/recentpix.msnw?Page=5 is a set of pix.  It actually starts with the last pic on page 4 and goes to page 6.

The pic on page 4 along with a few on 5 are before shots.  I have more from the early precess, but I'm slow at finding them.  The last 6 are from Wed the 20th.

Let me know if you have any questions about them.  

There might be others around with more knowledge of the project progress.  I just know about the pix.   :wink:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2005)

Hmmm....doesn't seem as big as I was thinking.  Are they going to build the new lodge or building on that bank where the trees have been removed.  Also, I noticed that the Season Pass office is being moved.


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## smootharc (Jul 22, 2005)

*Just the new lodge for public is being built first....*



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Hmmm....doesn't seem as big as I was thinking.  Are they going to build the new lodge or building on that bank where the trees have been removed.  Also, I noticed that the Season Pass office is being moved.




And I believe that's what they've broken ground for.  The Claybrook residential "private" lodge/timeshare is another building altogether, and, it is my understanding, is a "phase II" construction. 

The building being built is, again, I believe, the "guest services building" indicated on this site plan:

http://www.lincolnpeakvillage.com/sitedesign/collegedata/lincolnpeakvillage.com/i/siteplan_large.jpg


But, hey, I could be mistaken here.


----------



## Lostone (Jul 22, 2005)

The plan is to be a number of steps.

The one in process is to be the family center.  It will have all the ski school and day care operations along with guest services.  (I believe that the season pass office will be in that section.)

That is why the trees being pulled from behind Gatehouse was such a surprise, as the part of the plan that replaces the Gatehouse lodge (a constant complaint for years) was to be at least the third part of the plan.


----------



## Strat (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Claybrook Progress pix*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> OK, took a little longer than I expected.
> 
> I was going to do a chronological order kinda thing with explanations, but started to get the feeling that the pix would make the website after Claybrook was fully inhabited.   :roll:
> 
> ...


Nice pics, thanks for the view... This one really shows how much the landscape has changed on that side of the base: http://groups.msn.com/JimsSceneryPix/recentpix.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=555


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## Lostone (Jul 24, 2005)

Getting some bad rumors about Claybrook.


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## Strat (Jul 25, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Getting some bad rumors about Claybrook.


Do explain!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2005)

Yeah, give us the dirt.


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## castlerock (Jul 25, 2005)

*Yeah, what is going on?*

I was at a party (In Massachusetts, no less) this weekend and heard the "bad rumors going around" comment. When pressed for details, there were none, but the lack of a foundation going in several weeks after excavation, lends credence to the "bad news".

So what is up?


----------



## JimG. (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Yeah, what is going on?*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> I was at a party (In Massachusetts, no less) this weekend and heard the "bad rumors going around" comment. When pressed for details, there were none, but the lack of a foundation going in several weeks after excavation, lends credence to the "bad news".
> 
> So what is up?



That sounds like a $ issue.

Welcome aboard here castlerock!


----------



## dmc (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Yeah, what is going on?*



			
				JimG. said:
			
		

> Welcome aboard here castlerock!



Castlerock from TFT????


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 25, 2005)

*Fill the hole*

I was up there on Sat to check out the situation. Stopped in for a sandwich and the owner who has been there for many years told me he heard they were going to fill the hole back in and things were not going well. 

Noski could probably shed some light here.

As I mentioned in another post it is great that they are tearing down those delapidated buildings at the bottom of the access rd. It's a pretty valuable piece of property so does anyone want to venture a guess or know what might be built there. Probably a mini shopping center.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Yeah, what is going on?*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> When pressed for details, there were none, but the lack of a foundation going in several weeks after excavation, lends credence to the "bad news".
> 
> So what is up?



Great to have you here, Castlerock.  

Yes, I noted too in Lostone's pics that the site work was actually quite minimal.  No foundation and nothing really done...looked kind of pathetic actually.


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## castlerock (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Yeah, what is going on?*



			
				dmc said:
			
		

> Castlerock from TFT????



Your private woods guide, Dougie


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## dmc (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Yeah, what is going on?*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> dmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



COOL....  The best Sugarbush tour I EVER had...

I'm not renewing my ASC pass because of that day..


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## bvibert (Jul 25, 2005)

Great to have you here castlerock, I hope you continue to post.


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## Greg (Jul 25, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Great to have you here castlerock, I hope you continue to post.


Agreed. Welcome!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2005)

Hey Greg, any word back from SB as to their challenge?


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## awf170 (Jul 25, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Hey Greg, any word back from SB as to their challenge?




has any ski area just never responded???


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## Greg (Jul 25, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No word from SB. They are real stand up guys up there though so I suspect they are just very busy. It'll come I'm sure. JJ was truly excited about it.

Austin - yes. Stratton never replied last year... :x


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> awf170 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, so that means no more skiing at Stratton then...start the AZ Boycott  :wink:  :lol:


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## noski (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Fill the hole*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Noski could probably shed some light here.
> 
> As I mentioned in another post it is great that they are tearing down those delapidated buildings at the bottom of the access rd. It's a pretty valuable piece of property so does anyone want to venture a guess or know what might be built there. Probably a mini shopping center.



My bulb is growing dim, being flipped on and off so many times S_R_O.... But if I get the nerve, I will dig. As far as the bottom of the Access Rd, that is private property and absentee (out of country) owner was approached to sell the historic barn if it were dismantled and hauled away before it collapsed. I think the house will become WFD training excercise. Not sure of landowners intention there. Knowing the owner, I would guess it will remain vacant. Better view of Pierce's Wood & Auto.....  :wink:


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 25, 2005)

Loved getting my truck inspected at Pierce's, too bad his state permit got revoked for shoddy inspections.... :lol:


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## noski (Jul 25, 2005)

*...fill the hole*

mmmm. I have word from the hill. I need to be still for right now- I don't want to lose the trust. Not the dire backfilling you are alluding to, however. Now *You* have to trust *Me*!


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## Strat (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: ...fill the hole*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> mmmm. I have word from the hill. I need to be still for right now- I don't want to lose the trust. Not the dire backfilling you are alluding to, however. Now *You* have to trust *Me*!


Trusting oh so much, but want to know oh so desperately... is email confidential enough??


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 25, 2005)

Good to hear from noski that backfilling isn't in the offing, but it's still disconcerting that so little has been accomplished with the skier services bldg so far.  Obviously something is up, and it's probably not good news.  Hoping for the best though.


----------



## noski (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: ...fill the hole*



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> noski said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah Young Grasshopper, never put into writing that which you don't wish the world to see. Where one hole is filled, another is dug.


----------



## Lostone (Jul 25, 2005)

Adding to the rumor mill...   

The word I got was that there is a change of direction.

They're going to postpone the family center part and switch to building the Claybrook housing units.

The rumor is they were too close to be sure they could finish the family center and decided to switch to the housing portion.  

The plan is to concentrate on the Claybrook thru the winter.

That's the rumor I heard.  Not as bad as what I first heard. 

There are other rumors.  There always are.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 25, 2005)

Well that seems kind of silly.  They were too close to ensure that they'd finish the family center, so instead they'll start a MUCH bigger project and absoltely ensure they they'll have nothing new for the upcoming season.  Weird.  Maybe they want to get that revenue in for the housing quicker.  Why go and cut down the hillside in back of Gate House anyway?


----------



## loafer89 (Jul 25, 2005)

Sugarbush 1990-1991 trailmap:


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## awf170 (Jul 25, 2005)

so i dont get it... the green mountain express used to be there, then it was gone and now it is back :-?


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## loafer89 (Jul 25, 2005)

Leaflet in the 1993-1994 Sugarbush brochure:


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## Lostone (Jul 25, 2005)

> so i dont get it... the green mountain express used to be there, then it was gone and now it is back



That is because Les Otten wanted to have the lift end at the Slidebrook lift.  So he moved the GMX to Northridge and installed the slowest quad in the world from the bottom to the Junction of Slidebrook and Northridge.

He may have liked it.  Nobody who skied there did.  

The Northridge change was good, as that is the real vertical at North, but Pokey made the bottom almost unused.

When Summit Ventures took it over, one of their furst announcements were that they were going to put the GMX back in.  It was announced to cheers.   :beer:


----------



## teachski (Jul 25, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> ...Austin, just wondering, where did you pull the old north map from? I only know of two places, nelsap and my site, that have it on, just interested, especially if it's my site, haha...


Strat, I have that map (I think), or one very similar, on my site too.  I got it from a 1968 ski magazine (skiing I think) several months ago.  It is on with the Glen Ellen brochure.  http://teachski.com


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: ...fill the hole*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> mmmm. I have word from the hill. I need to be still for right now- I don't want to lose the trust. Not the dire backfilling you are alluding to, however. Now *You* have to trust *Me*!



I have trusted you for years...never steered me wrong yet.   

I too have a bird who is singing the blues but waiting for the official word is always the best way to go.


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## Lostone (Jul 25, 2005)

> waiting for the official word is always the best way to go.



 :blink:   You're no fun at all!   :blink: 


 :lol:


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## goober (Jul 25, 2005)

Hey castlerock, How was the party.  I ran into Jeramiah at the one I was at.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> > so i dont get it... the green mountain express used to be there, then it was gone and now it is back
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Okay good, I haven't fully lost it.


I skied Sugarbush this year for the first time in many years as they had the $25 Wednesday tickets at north and I didn't have a pass, so it was a great value.  I definitely recalled the last time I skied there that the lower lift ended at Slidebrook.  I remember skiing back then and being all excited about the ASC 28 mil, 19 new lifts (kidding) upgrade when they bought the place and thinking - why in the hell do you have to take three lifts to get to the summit?  Then I went back last season and it only required two, which was a pleasant suprise.

I don't know what in the hell Otten was thinking then, but I'm glad they returned things to the way they once were. 

Sugarbush to me is the biggest travesty in Eastern Skiing.  It has the best combination of natural snow and terrain in the east, but suffers terribly from mis-management.


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## castlerock (Jul 26, 2005)

goober said:
			
		

> I ran into Jeramiah at the one I was at.


.

Hey Goober, wipe that drool off your face!

Probably the same party, Jeremiah is a geek! So are you gonna be buying a unit in the Village at Clay Brook, as it appears they are trying to speed the housing up by a year.

By the way have your teeth stopped chattering from the Nantucket Run?


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## castlerock (Jul 26, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Maybe they want to get that revenue in for the housing quicker.  Why go and cut down the hillside in back of Gate House anyway?



I think you are right on the revenue side of things. They probably can't carry the construction costs for two years without revenue.

I believe that they did the cutting to allow skier flow, as the main Village building goes almost all the way to the current baselodge. I think the the plans call for a snowless pedestrian area between the baselodge and the hotel/condos.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> so i dont get it... the green mountain express used to be there, then it was gone and now it is back :-?



EXACTLY!!!   :wink: 

Seriously, great ASC logic... :roll: 

The ORIGINAL GMX is now the North Ridge Express, which was moved during the big $28 mill expansion in 1995 or 1996.  Doppelmeyr installed a slow fixed grip quad in its place which ran to the base of the new Slide Brook and North Ridge Chairs, making early and late season skiing at Ellen unfeasible.  Locals know that North Ridge NEVER ran right...breaking down almost weekly because Doppelmeyr did not reinstall all of the components correctly (they came back to the office with a box of parts saying, "we don't know where these go"  :lol: ).  BTW Poma renovated this lift in 2002 (it was a Poma lift of course) and she's run much better since then.  

In 2002 the current regime installed a BRAND NEW GMX Express which Poma built.  It is a nice lift and once again allows for late and early season skiing.  

So yeah, one step forward, two back.  The end result is a good set-up but probably too much lift capacity for the configuration.  No complaints since to ski the full mountain one only needs to ride two lifts (one fast, one slower) instead of three (two slow, one fast)  :roll: .


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 26, 2005)

*design*

Personally I thought the design of the Lodge at Lincoln Peak, also known as "lodging attempt #2" was beautiful although maybe alittle too "western" looking. Again, personally speaking, would like to hear other comments on this, 

I thought the design of the current developement was just plain ugly. It is very boxy and looks like it belongs in an urban setting than Vermont. The "barn look" doesn't work as the scale is way out of wack for a farm. 

To be fair the west side(from the mountain) looks pretty cool but it's the east side that looks bad. For awhile they had a image of the building on the Sugarbush site, from the parking lot, superimposed at the base...it looked bad. Not surprised they removed it. The architectual pics on the website make it look much nicer than it will when built. Just my 2 cents.

Noski...can you handle a #4?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

deadheadskier said:
			
		

> I don't know what in the hell Otten was thinking then, but I'm glad they returned things to the way they once were.



He was thinking of directing traffic to Lincoln Peak, which still happens because much of the condos and other junk is over there.  He also was probably thinking of that much of the traffic was going to be coming from the SB Express, so they would be skiing the upper two thirds and not interested in the bottom section (including Lower FIS and Inverness Areas).  He was also probably thinking of turning the lower area, with the slow quad, into beginner terrain, which is dumb because that basically takes traffic from these less-used areas to an even lower amount which means even more lost $$$$ with lifts and snowmaking operating down there for less skiers.  He also made it more difficult for one to ski the full mountain, which IMHO is the biggest asset to Ellen.     



> Sugarbush to me is the biggest travesty in Eastern Skiing.  It has the best combination of natural snow and terrain in the east, but suffers terribly from mis-management.



Yes, people get quite passionate about the mountain.  We have a hate-love relationship with them I guess...seems that they are thinking about something different than what we fans want...but at some level, it is a Catch 22 for them I guess  :roll:


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## loafer89 (Jul 26, 2005)

I just remember riding the new Green Mountain Express chair in January of 1991, boy was that thing fast.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> I just remember riding the new Green Mountain Express chair in January of 1991, boy was that thing fast.



Both still are.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> Leaflet in the 1993-1994 Sugarbush brochure:



...and this pond was built in 1995 by ASC.  Another story: it was permitted to be quite deep, but in a pinch to get it done and done cheaply, ASC dug it shallower than permitted.  As a result, the pond ran dry in 2001-2002 and the current company had to re-dredge it the next season.  Some more GREAT ASC planning  :roll:  :x


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## castlerock (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: design*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> I thought the design of the Lodge at Lincoln Peak, also known as "lodging attempt #2" was beautiful although maybe alittle too "western" looking.
> 
> The "barn look" doesn't work as the scale is way out of wack for a farm.
> 
> To be fair the west side(from the mountain) looks pretty cool but it's the east side that looks bad.



I'm in agreement with all three comments, especially the barn look comment. If they go through with it as planned, I believe it will have a "disney-like" or maybe just artificial ambience. 

I think the barn motif, is a hangover from the Lodge.  The lodge had a motif (CCC grand Lodge), but in reality it was a genre.(said lodge). When doing the new plans, I'll bet the designers felt that since Win and Co, were fired up about a motif, that the new plan should have one as well. 

The old plan worked as it was something real, the new one won't (from a design perspective at least) as it is a charachiture.


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## noski (Jul 26, 2005)

*Barn-like Lodge*

Two thoughts on this topic- first, you have to admit it will be different than any other resort anywhere. The Vermont vernacular will lend well to public relations and press writing.   Second- maybe you give the guest too much credit. Not all of the Valley's guests are as sophisticated and savvy as those in this forum. They may just eat it all up and think it is the coolest thing they have ever seen. 

I think we have to keep an open and positive mind- and dialogue- and pull for this all to work for the benefit of the mountain and Valley. There. done.


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## castlerock (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Barn-like Lodge*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> I think we have to keep an open and positive mind- and dialogue- and pull for this all to work for the benefit of the mountain and Valley. There. done.



Agreed, I want Summit Ventures to be succesful, I want the valley to thrive and the project to work out.

My critique is one of style only. And I felt it obvious the first time I saw the plans, last "community weekend". In fact if they just struck the Silo from the design, it would be fine. That is the obvious artifice in the plans.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 26, 2005)

Some of us do not have to be so politically correct as others. I am neither savvy or sophisticated. The valley's guests are much smarter than you give them credit. They know fake when they see it.

Use your magic powers to improve the boxy westside of the building. It looks like a big boxy hotel from an exit along an interstate highway. Ok...a big boxy hotel with an out of scale cuppola. Where do the plastic cows go.... :lol:

Castlerock    you a freeheeler?


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## dmc (Jul 26, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Castlerock    you a freeheeler?



Castlerock is a hardcore skier...  An awesome tourguide of Sugarbush delights...

Just don't ask him if he works for Snowbird


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## castlerock (Jul 26, 2005)

Snowbird was my ski home before the Bush, and I have been accused of working for their PR department. At least I don't work for CSC! (nyaa, nyaa, you guys got second!)

It is interesting looking at the Avatar, it appears I could be do a tele turn. But that is only resizing distortion. I do have a tele set up, but it is big time old, with Asolo leather boots on an old pair of Dynastars.


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## dmc (Jul 26, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> At least I don't work for CSC! (nyaa, nyaa, you guys got second!)



Never thought CSC would win the tour...  But it's still cool we sponsor a team..

Whaddya work for Lance Armstrong or something?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

Yeah, I want SB to succeed as well.  My concern with their new strategy is that they don't know what they are getting into...a higher income clientele are going to be very demanding ("my hot chocolate is not hot enough"...."there are too many bubbles in my champagne"....etc, etc) so any gains will be lost.  I just don't want to see locals priced out.

Jet-set skiers will also head to Europe or the west if the skiing isn't good...locals will be there on a whim.


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## djspookman (Jul 26, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> I just don't want to see locals priced out.



too late for that..  There's a lot of real estate for sale in the valley right now, just nothing "touchable" for a first time buyer like myself  

I'm keeping my ears open for news on the construction though.. 


dave


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Seems like the rest of my home state is going that way...


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 26, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I was looking to buy in the valley, about 5 years ago, you could buy a nice Village Gate 1BR for 25K. I recently saw a similar unit going for 45K, when one is available. The trouble with condos is that dang monthly condo fee.

Just like in Jackson Hole where workers commute from Idaho(25m) over Teton Pass or thru the Snake River Canyon from Star Valley(45m), both dangerous routes in the winter, more and more Sugarbush workers are commuting from Granville, Northfield and Bristol to find more affordable houseing. 

The interesting thing when you compare real estate prices in the valley with Stowe, Burlington and Manchester, prices in the valley are still resonable comparably. Find something now before prices REALLY go up.


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## smootharc (Jul 26, 2005)

*Wow....I leave for three days to visit my crazy Canadian*

relatives and hit Niagara Falls with the Chapstick and the Millimeters....and the valley goes haywire. First it was Sex, Lies, and Videotape...then P-Tex, Lies and Duct Tape...now it's Sugar, Spies, and Red Tape.  Jeepers....I can't wrap my brain around it all.  


Keep the goods coming.  Intrigue is good.  Rumors better.  And the truth is....well, the truth.  Just don't tell me your source is nicknamed "Deep Throat"....


Off to Skier's Edge until something breaks....it or me....  :wink:


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## Lostone (Jul 26, 2005)

Couple points:

1)  As for housing prices, this is a national thing.  Some call it a bubble.  I don't know, but I know some prices are really strange.  

There is a place in my building listed for $89K.  I bought mine 6 years ago for less than $30K.  

But I sold my place in Mass for a huge profit, while the guy who sold it to me sold it at a huge loss.  Prices go up and down.  

B)  As for Claybrook, I like the barn motif.  My concern is more that, looking down from the mountain it will look like a monstrosity.  

A couple years ago, I went to K-mart during the fall and rode the gondola up and down.  On the way down, I couldn't believe how ugly their Grand Summit looked.  

This complex looks pretty big.  If it looks too bad, from the mountain, not only will they not get the people they want to buy in, but they will send people away that came for the unspoiled valley look.  

Case in point is the wastewater plant.  Have you ever heard anyone say anything positive about its look?  The comments I've heard have been 100% negative...  and that is a long way from the mountain, comparitively.  How will Claybrook look from Organgrinder?  Spring Fling?  Steins?  

III)  I hope thought has been given to the fact that everyone is now parking a lot farther away.  Feedback I got was that the idea of having vallet parking taking the closest lot was...  not very customer friendly.  Now, they're being moved further?  

d)  I really want Summit Ventures to succeed.  (Remember people saying hat about ASC?  I didn't think so.    )  But I hope these things have been considered.  

I'm not one of the customers who will be involved in Claybrook.  Most won't.  I hope they matter, as they are the lifeblood of Sugarbush for many years...  past and future...  I hope.


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## Strat (Jul 26, 2005)

teachski said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, OK, hadn't seen that since the last time I had checked out that Glen Ellen brochure... thanks for the heads-up.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 27, 2005)

I definitely find myself agreeing with a lot of what's written here.  The barn idea is, I think, a good one.  Provide guests with a patina of VT and all that.  Of course the key issue is execution on that vision, and the drawings I've seen don't exactly inspire the soul.  We'll see what the finished picture looks like.  

It's too bad about the potential postponement of the Skier Services Bldg.  While Claybrook may bring in the revenues earlier, SB guests will now have to contend with another year of an overcrowded and woefully inadequate base lodge set up.  In fact, it could be even worse this year if the random base area buildings housing the rental shop, ski school and other functions are taken down to accomodate the footprint of the new structure.  No matter what, this is bad news, and indicates to me that Summit is experiencing some cash flow difficulties.

I don't know if this project is necessarily designed to bring SB new customers or a new class of customers.  Rather, I believe it's an attempt to monetize the loyalty of the SB skier base whose lodging dollars are currently spent elsewhere in the Valley.  To that end, I'm not sure the design is as critical as the location (you won't get any better going forward), though it certainly can't be ignored.


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## Strat (Jul 27, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> Sugarbush 1990-1991 trailmap:



Thanks for the map... would really like to put it on my site, but I'm kinda picky about completeness in the map, and your scans are a bit choppy... beggars can't be choosers, but is there a chance you could perhaps rescan with more completeness (without parts cut off the sides and whatnot) even in a few pieces that I could photoshop together? Thanks.


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## Lostone (Jul 27, 2005)

When you post an image, such as some of the above maps that is too wide for the screen it stretches the size of the screen.

From then on, anyone reaking that page has to scroll to the right of the screen to read the end of the line, back to the left for the first part of the next, then abck to rhe right for the end of that line... rinse lather repeat...

This can be avoided by shrinking the size of the image so that it fits onto the normal screen.  

For an example, note the difference between page 1 and page 13 of this thread.

Am I the only one who finds this annoying?   :-?


----------



## bvibert (Jul 27, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who finds this annoying?   :-?



I do find it annoying, however the pictures you're refering to aren't too wide for my screen...

In general though its a good idea to post a small pic in the thread with a link to the bigger version, that gives people the option to go look at the bigger one if they want and don't have to wait for the pic to load in the forum if they're not interested.  This is expecially annoying for dial-up people...


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## Strat (Jul 27, 2005)

Yeah, I was wondering about quoting that, but the original was a ways back... Lostone, maybe turn up your resolution?


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## Lostone (Jul 29, 2005)

*Claybrook progress...?*

As of yesterday, they are back to digging in the area that they'd seemed to abandon.  Work continues on 22 acre site, which has been expanded greatly, to the right.  Thinking this will be parking?  If so it is a long way from the mountain.  As is the lower parking lot, which is also expanded well beyond the snowmaking building.

Also of note, the season pass building now sits in the parking lot.  It is being donated to Habbitat For Humanity, which I think is really good.

It will come to live at the bottom of the access road, in the near future.  It will then be a home.  

I might get some more pix up later today, but it is just too nice to stay inside, today.  

75°, sunny and dry?  If you've ordered a beautiful Vermont summer day, it might be coming up.


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## Strat (Jul 29, 2005)

Was just up there yesterday, looking at that massive pile of dirt that they're using a bucketloader to put in a dump truck, which carts it over to the steep bank so a bulldozer and a guy on a steamroller can flatten it out... at least it's nice to see they have a job in mind...

Which 22 acre site is this by the way?


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## noski (Jul 29, 2005)

*22 acre site*

strat- "22 Acres" is the land where a hotel was once going to be, before you were born I think. It is on the left after turning onto Inferno Rd at the parking lot intersection. I can't remember what is going there, I can certainly find out if no one here remembers.


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## Strat (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: 22 acre site*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> strat- "22 Acres" is the land where a hotel was once going to be, before you were born I think. It is on the left after turning onto Inferno Rd at the parking lot intersection. I can't remember what is going there, I can certainly find out if no one here remembers.


Ah, alright, how long ago then? Wasn't the grand summit, right, because that was only, what 98 or something... what ownership was that under?


----------



## noski (Jul 31, 2005)

*Re: 22 acre site*



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> noski said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no- waaaaaaaay before that. Someone here will know when that was. Early 80's? Anyway that 22 acre site is planned for parking, primarily employee, plus a future water/wastewater facility for ClayBrook- someone should correct me if I am wrong, though.


----------



## Strat (Jul 31, 2005)

*Re: 22 acre site*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, oh, ok... maybe even under roy cohen?


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## Lostone (Aug 1, 2005)

22 acre site has been employee parking for busy times on the mountain.  Now it is being dug out big time.  

Could well be water/waste facility, as there is to be a new one for Claybrook.  

Sure hope it is less of an eyesore than the present one.


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## Lostone (Aug 1, 2005)

So the latest rumor is that there is no financing problem, but one of timing.

The plan was to start the family center in the spring, but the permitting wasn't settled in the spring.  It was settled early summer.  That left them with less than enough time to guarantee finishing it before ski season.

So the new plan is to bring in some sort of temporary buildings for the guest services functions, tear down the yellow buildings and concentrate on gettingthe housing units up during the winter, planning on going back to the family center next spring.

That is the rumor.  The next rumor is that there will be an announcement this week.  That will be Noski's job to add that, as I only do rumors.   :wink:    :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2005)

Sounds like the Sugarbush line that I've heard for so many seasons..."it's not our fault...blah, blah."  Hate to be negative, but I've heard it before.  It's too bad...


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## noski (Aug 2, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> So the latest rumor is that there is no financing problem, but one of timing.
> 
> The plan was to start the family center in the spring, but the permitting wasn't settled in the spring.  It was settled early summer.  That left them with less than enough time to guarantee finishing it before ski season.
> 
> ...


Not bad, you have it about as I have it, but I do have my ear to the rail for a release.


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## Strat (Aug 2, 2005)

noski said:
			
		

> Lostone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, best news I've heard yet...


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## Lostone (Aug 3, 2005)

> I do have my ear to the rail for a release.



   Be careful about that!  I did that once, and when the train came by...    

 :roll:   Well there was enough not squashed that I can still post here.   :wink:     :lol:


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## Rustyfan (Aug 4, 2005)

*22 acre site (corner of Access Road and Inferno Road)*

I think I recall seeing some announcement that some or all of that site will be dedicated to the golf facility?  Maybe a nine hole course, practice facility, something else golf-related?


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## noski (Aug 4, 2005)

*Welcome, Rustyfan*

8) Welcome! It's pretty nice in here. I haven't seen any flames. Greg keeps a nice neat forum. I kind of forgot about the nine hole plan- good memory. I will look into that. I am feeling a small vibation on the track for formal news and will lift my head in time to tell y'all.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: 22 acre site (corner of Access Road and Inferno Road)*



			
				Rustyfan said:
			
		

> I think I recall seeing some announcement that some or all of that site will be dedicated to the golf facility?  Maybe a nine hole course, practice facility, something else golf-related?



Yep, welcome to the boards, Rustyfan!  We've made this a new home for SB Fans...be sure to tell others.  

 :beer:


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2005)

> Yep, welcome to the boards, Rustyfan! We've made this a new home for SB Fans...be sure to tell others.



Yeah, but don't tell everybody.  *cough*Ghostrider*cough*


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> > Yep, welcome to the boards, Rustyfan! We've made this a new home for SB Fans...be sure to tell others.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but don't tell everybody.  *cough*Ghostrider*cough*



I doubt he will be in here....


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## Vortex (Aug 4, 2005)

Welcome RustyFan.    Drop by our trip and events folder if you would like to get out with the gang.  Allskiing( Dave) I believe is planning to do and outing here if all goes well.  More info as he gets out of his water boards later on. :wink:


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## Rustyfan (Aug 5, 2005)

*Glad to find you!*

Don't mean to be unkind or judgmental (at least not too much), but those jokers really ruined the RSN room.  RSN shut it down, right?


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 5, 2005)

Hard to tell what happened.  All RSN boards were being shut down and they obviously weren't putting much money into wither technology or oversight before they were.  What a complete joke.  Thankfully, the mods here have a much firmer grip on the wheel.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 5, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> > Yep, welcome to the boards, Rustyfan! We've made this a new home for SB Fans...be sure to tell others.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but don't tell everybody.  *cough*Ghostrider*cough*



Speaking of Ghost he works at Ray Brook headquarters for the APA. I wonder if he is one of the subordinates with inappropriate material on his computer mentioned in this article, that would be too funny. BTW he's a good guy in person, he just likes to start things up in forums for his own amusement. http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=386242&category=STATE&BCCode=&newsdate=8/5/2005


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Hard to tell what happened.  All RSN boards were being shut down and they obviously weren't putting much money into wither technology or oversight before they were.  What a complete joke.  Thankfully, the mods here have a much firmer grip on the wheel.



Don't think you will have to worry about that... :wink: 

PM me with any concerns or questions, guys, otherwise, welcome!


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 5, 2005)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> Tin Woodsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup...Keith is a good guy despite being from the Albany area....lol.


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## Schusseur (Aug 7, 2005)

Good to see a decent forum about the old 'bush again. kind of liked it when the chat involved telemama, skiladi, daevious, deepp, inverness, bijoux and mtnlady, not to mention you guys who've already found your way here. Cheers!


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## Lostone (Aug 7, 2005)

daevious is a posting (Well, maybe not at this moment) member.  Skiladi and mtnlady know where we are.

Unfortunately, telemama dropped out before RSN froze.  If I see Inverness, I'll mention where we are.

Good to see a bunch of local area posters have a place to chat.  :beer: 

Also a number of other interesting threads around, should you care to partake.  

And if nothing strikes you interest...   :idea:   Start one that does.


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## Strat (Aug 8, 2005)

If I could just mention, because we're talking about the glory days of the RSN forums, I was on there, going by snowboarder757 at the time... I'm sure I'm remembered...


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## vtskibum (Aug 8, 2005)

*Just stickin my nose in....*

and wavin hello


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## Rustyfan (Aug 8, 2005)

*Anyone heard from Groomsit?*

He and Ghost didn't get along.


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## Greg (Aug 8, 2005)

Welcome RSNers! Hope you all enjoy your time here. Hopefully, you'll stick around if/when RSN gets a board running again. We've got a great group here.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 8, 2005)

Anything happening up on the hill these days?  My friend was up there this weekend and said it was a ghost town at the construction site.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2005)

Schusseur said:
			
		

> Good to see a decent forum about the old 'bush again. kind of liked it when the chat involved telemama, skiladi, daevious, deepp, inverness, bijoux and mtnlady, not to mention you guys who've already found your way here. Cheers!



Great to see you all here!  I was thetrailboss over there as well and often lurked but contributed when I could... :beer: 

So be sure to invite all of those above named folks to this room.  This thread has been very active...very active, and we really like having you here!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Anything happening up on the hill these days?  My friend was up there this weekend and said it was a ghost town at the construction site.



I'm sorry to hear that...seems like things have really come to a halt again.


----------



## Lostone (Aug 8, 2005)

Still haven't gotten an update  (_Noski?_  :lol: ) but they are not only working there today, but they were working Saturday, this weekend.  (This is the first time they've done that.

On the ground, they've unloaded the skis from the rental shop (That's a guess.  The trailor is there, but it might be yet to be done.) and the Alpine Options place.  

They've started tearing the Alpine Options place down.

The construction site has now expanded to take almost all of the front of the parking lot., and the part they've been digging out where the family center is thought to be going, seems to be about finished.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Still haven't gotten an update  (_Noski?_  :lol: ) but they are not only working there today, but they were working Saturday, this weekend.  (This is the first time they've done that.
> 
> On the ground, they've unloaded the skis from the rental shop (That's a guess.  The trailor is there, but it might be yet to be done.) and the Alpine Options place.
> 
> ...



Boy, it's getting late in the construction season... :-? ...what are they going to do with this incomplete construction area?  Where will the rental shop, etc be going?  Why the delay(s)?


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 8, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Still haven't gotten an update  (_Noski?_  :lol: ) but they are not only working there today, but they were working Saturday, this weekend.  (This is the first time they've done that.
> 
> On the ground, they've unloaded the skis from the rental shop (That's a guess.  The trailor is there, but it might be yet to be done.) and the Alpine Options place.
> 
> ...



That's good news.  Now that I think about it, my friend was up there on Sunday, which could explain the inactivity.  If they are starting to work on Saturdays, that's definitely a good sign that things are moving in the right direction.


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## noski (Aug 8, 2005)

*Ouch!*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Lostone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rustyfan (Aug 8, 2005)

*Above Gatehouse*

I read earlier that some of the trees above Gatehouse.  Does this mean that, skiing down under the Gatehouse or Super Bravo quads, you can cut the corner (either way) on your way to the bottom of the other lift?  That would be a very good thing, as the narrow area between the GH lodge and the trees was inconvenient and a bit dangerous, and the long Sleeper runout was pointless.


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## Rustyfan (Aug 8, 2005)

*Sorry, in previous post, meant to ask whether some of the trees above GH have been cleared*

Thanks


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 8, 2005)

*bad sign*

The AZ news item about Rob Hopkins becoming the new Director of Sales at Okemo has a Sugarbush angle. Rob was hired last January as the new Director of Sales at the Bush. His office was next to mine so I got to know him pretty good in a short time. 

I remember welcoming him by saying "welcome to the nightmare"....he thought I was kidding. 

Without going into detail I am not surprised he left after just 6 months on the job. Not a good omen for the Bush.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Above Gatehouse*



			
				Rustyfan said:
			
		

> I read earlier that some of the trees above Gatehouse.  Does this mean that, skiing down under the Gatehouse or Super Bravo quads, you can cut the corner (either way) on your way to the bottom of the other lift?  That would be a very good thing, as the narrow area between the GH lodge and the trees was inconvenient and a bit dangerous, and the long Sleeper runout was pointless.



I think someone mentioned that was done to facilitate access from GH to SB easier in a scenario where the area between the GH lodge and Clay Brook/skier services bldg was going to be pedestrian only.  If it had the side effect of shortening the useless Sleeper runout, all the better, but I don' tthink they are going to move quite that much Earth - that's big ridge in the middle there.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: bad sign*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> The AZ news item about Rob Hopkins becoming the new Director of Sales at Okemo has a Sugarbush angle. Rob was hired last January as the new Director of Sales at the Bush. His office was next to mine so I got to know him pretty good in a short time.
> 
> I remember welcoming him by saying "welcome to the nightmare"....he thought I was kidding.
> 
> Without going into detail I am not surprised he left after just 6 months on the job. Not a good omen for the Bush.



There seem to be a lot of posts hinting at mgmt instability or incometence at SB.  Without going into detail, can anyone give a Cliff Notes version of what the problems are and who is responsible among the principles within Summit Ventures?


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## Schusseur (Aug 8, 2005)

While trying to avoid being negative, I did notice an unpleasant trend last season: the rising frequency of mechanical problems with lifts. It seemed to happen too often. I'm talking Super Bravo and GH especially. Now being 20 to 25 years old, are they in need of some major overhaul? Also, the amount of stops made per trip up is just getting silly. Isn't there a way to feed people in so they're better prepared to grab the chair?


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## Strat (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Above Gatehouse*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Rustyfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heard from the owner of alpine options that they're going to flatten that whole ridge and shorten the sleeper runout, partly for these traffic reasons and partly for safety, as they really wanna get rid of the little ice mound at the skier's right end of the trail where lots of rambunxious little kids like to jet off of and fly into the Gatehouse liftlines... so yeah, multiple reasons, but that project is for next summer I think... they probably just wanted to get the trees out because the massive tree cutter machine was already there and it was much more effective to do it then then bring it back later... trees aren't gonna grow back that fast...


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## Strat (Aug 8, 2005)

Schusseur said:
			
		

> While trying to avoid being negative, I did notice an unpleasant trend last season: the rising frequency of mechanical problems with lifts. It seemed to happen too often. I'm talking Super Bravo and GH especially. Now being 20 to 25 years old, are they in need of some major overhaul? Also, the amount of stops made per trip up is just getting silly. Isn't there a way to feed people in so they're better prepared to grab the chair?


Those chairs are some of the most modern SB has - others are far higher on the replacement list... heaven's gate, north ridge, north summit come to mind... and then of course the proposed replacements as part of the clay brook project, village chair and valley house... I didn't really notice this increased trend in stops, seems to me as just a normal part of lift riding... they've definitely spent tons of time figuring out the most time-effective way to arrange people in the liftlines, I don't think that's anything they could improve further...


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: bad sign*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> ski_resort_observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Last winter the sales dept was a ship without a captain. It also was split up with part working out of the Sugarbush Inn and part working out of the Valley House. After months, including most of the ski season, without a Dir of Sales. They finally hired Rob who was highly qualified and experienced but he had his work cut out for him. When I had left in March he was already getting pretty frustrated. 

In addition, IMHO moving several key departments out of the Admin Bldg area( next door from Paradise Deli) and moving them to the base of Lincoln Peak was a big mistake. 

I do not want to come off totally negetive as Win and Adam have done alot of positive things in the short time they have owned the Bush.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2005)

I'm sorry, I've heard VERY few good things concerning the new ownerships' leadership.  Not that American Ski Co was any better.  

All I hear is that the new owner is a clueless ex-stock broker, financial anylist ect who has zero understanding of resort operations. These words come from long time valley residents who worked for the mountain for many years and have finally walked away from it all.

The whole fiasco with Fandango and the current stalled progress at Claybrook only solidifies what I perceive as POOR management.

The current ownership appears to be the Newheart  show of the ski industry and its a darn shame because I truly feel that Sugarbush has the best combination of natural terrain and snowfall in the east.

Jay obvioulsy has better snow.  I think that Sugarloaf has better natural terrain. To me though, Sugarbush has the best combination of both.


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## Strat (Aug 9, 2005)

So now we have the exact opposite of what we had before: ASC was a giant company that knew exactly how to run a ski area, they just didn't want to. Now we have Summit Ventures, who is a small company that really wants to run the ski area, but has much less knowledge as to how to do so... we just can't win...


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## daevious (Aug 9, 2005)

Ha! This is now EXACTLY like the old RSN thread (I mean, before the Whiteface boys).


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Schusseur said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, those named lifts have had problems which is embarrassing considering that they are about 10 years old...not 20-25 unless you are referring to something else.  Then again, could be the infamous 'windholds' that seem to plague SB during slow midweek days :roll:

BTW...aren't we still waiting for SB's answers to the AZ challenge?


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## Rustyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

*New owners*

are, in my view, still learning how to run the mountain.  From all appearances, they had a good year last year.   I'd guess they're a bit cash-starved, and they have a bit of a chicken/egg problem with coming up with the cash to fix the (horrible) base area so that they get...more cash.  Regardless, I think the mountain "runs" much better than it did even two seasons ago.  The snow conditions last season were unreal!  The only big issue I see operationally is the Gatehouse backups.  The new Valley House lift should help there, moving intermediates over to the easier VH terrain.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2005)

Yeah, the Gatehouse lift was really bad...I hate those Jersey-Barrier crowd control fences they now are using :roll:  Makes the place look like NYC but I guess it is a necessary evil.


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## castlerock (Aug 9, 2005)

daevious said:
			
		

> Ha! This is now EXACTLY like the old RSN thread



Truer words were never said!

Let's see, ... we have:
1.)  the "old time valley hands that feel like they own the Bush dissing Win and Adam".

This is pretty much like Red Sox nation believing they could manage (or general manage) the team better than the current Red Sox manager. I'd love to see the "old valley folks" run a ski area, If they had to write the checks. $10K in Chittenden savings bank doesn't get you that far at Payroll/Debt Service time  does it?

2.) "ASC is the evil big ski company, but they sure could run a ski area". 

What a short memory we have! Let me ask the question. Is the ski experience better at Sugarbush now than it was 10 years ago? Put those rose colored glasses away.

Do you feel better about what the future for the area  is than you did 10 years ago?

3.) The Bush is mismanaged by the "Bob Newhart" of the ski business!
This is the most frustrating as it is really meanspirited in its ignorance. What do you want, Donald Trump? 

The Bush is being run by people who want to be there, live there full time, ski there every day. They are doing it out of their own pockets, putting their money on the line. (Sort of I guess, the financial machinacions of even the moderately wealthy are greek to me). 

The place isn't Stowe, it isn't Killington, and it isn't Mad River. I don't want it to be any of those. The property values in the Valley have doubled in the last three years, people want in.


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## Lostone (Aug 9, 2005)

As for the lifts stopping, most of those are not maintainance related.  Most have to do with people getting on and off.  

You've ridden those lifts and know there is little wrong with them.  (I'd like a little more  of a hill getting off Gatehouse,...  but I digress. :wink: )   

The problem is that some of the customers just don't pay attention or make mistakes. I've seen the lift ops do amazing things to get people to and on the lifts, but when things get questionable, they just  _have_ to error on the side of caution.  

My only real problem with the way they run the lifts is the scanning crap. :roll:  Can't tell you how many times they had one or two gates open with people lined onto the trail or to the tent.  Why?  They didn't have enough people to scan.  :blink:

That is just dumb, because they could rearrange how they scan to open all the gates and scan as people turn the corner and head to the lift.


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## Lostone (Aug 9, 2005)

Oh...  and as for their taking the trees out making it easier to get to Bravo or Gatehouse, it is still a big hill.  You'd have to climb it to get across.  Then, as you are heading down that hill toward Bravo, there would be those coming down Gondalier, heading toward the lodge or Gatehouse. 

A new place for bad collisions.  Luckily, patrol will be abel to get there quickly.    :roll:


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## AHM (Aug 9, 2005)

*How to run the mountain..............*

All:  The concept of ASC as a large company, familiar with ski area management but not wishing to perform that function is right on.  They actually did more for the bush than anyone else.  Without ASC, the lift system would not be what it is today and although it goes down regularly, it allows you to ski the entire hill very easily and revolutionized SB skiing.

The idea that SV wants to run the hill but doesn't know how I feel is somewhat true.  Leadership and basic know how is certainly lacking.  There actually is no understanding of how to market SBs niche as a great mt with a quaint town.  That appeals to certain skiers and SB needs to understand how to get those skiers to the hill and then keep them.  Their marketing efforts have suffered for years and the inconsistency is clearly obvious and not helpful.  Additionally, although advertising is extremely expensive, it is the key to getting the skiers they so much need to infuse some cash into the operation.  

I have often asked:  Can SV actually afford the ski area.  They showed they could buy it, but affording it is much different.  Basic maintenance is often lacking and I very much doubt I could go in and ask to see the Lift PM (preventative maintenance--a very common theme in most manufacturing facilities and like it or not it is a manufacturing facility with pumps, compressors, piping, motors,etc.  A good PM system means a "purring plant" and that does not have unexpected breakdowns) schedule

Obviously, they are choosing minimal investment of their own capital, otherwise Claybrook would be off the ground and rolling.  Unfortunately, in the ski business to be a major player, you need to be able to either self finance or be savy enough to get people to invest for you.............otherwise, they might consider going the Silverton way:  Good terrain and not a lot of ammenities.

Now, the real question:  Scarpa Denalli TT or Garmont Mega ride G-fit ?????????????.  AHM


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## Strat (Aug 9, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> 2.) "ASC is the evil big ski company, but they sure could run a ski area".


Well, I'm not trying to be _that_ negative... obviously the bush experience 10 years ago was quite poor in lots of ways, I'm just pointing out that ASC had a lot of experience running ski areas before, though yes, they weren't amazing at it... the fact that they neglected the bush completely was the reason it really tanked... but yeah, if they still owned it, it would definitely be a much worse off place than it is today...


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## JimG. (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: How to run the mountain..............*



			
				AHM said:
			
		

> Now, the real question:  Scarpa Denalli TT or Garmont Mega ride G-fit ?????????????.  AHM



Try on a pair of the Garmont Adrenalins while you're at it...you won't be sorry.

And welcome aboard!


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 9, 2005)

One of the many positives under Summit has been to put more of a focus on North. Bringing in a top manager, who BTW, worked at the Bush under the ASC regime and offering lower priced products to get skiers to take advantage of the improved Mt Ellen.

Both Win and Adam are always around the resort, they work very hard, are very approachable and open to ideas on how to make the resort better. 

I would like to ask AZ members who ever worked at a resort and tell me everything worked perfectly all the time. Even LL Bean has its problems from time to time.


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## AHM (Aug 9, 2005)

Jim G:  Thanks for  the tip on the Garmont adrenaline!  The adrenaline is an alpine boot with a changable sole.  It is not an AT boot by any stretch.  Have tried them on, not nuts on them.  Have a friend with them--ate his feet up during a week of touring in Rogers last year.  Don't want an everyday boot, want an AT specific boot for AT activities when I am actually touring.  Want the straight up Vibram sole cus after some tours there be rocks and stuff you have to walk on.  Comes down really to fit and we'll find that out pretty soon. AHM


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2005)

AHM said:
			
		

> Jim G:  Thanks for  the tip on the Garmont adrenaline!  The adrenaline is an alpine boot with a changable sole.  It is not an AT boot by any stretch.  Have tried them on, not nuts on them.  Have a friend with them--ate his feet up during a week of touring in Rogers last year.  Don't want an everyday boot, want an AT specific boot for AT activities when I am actually touring.  Want the straight up Vibram sole cus after some tours there be rocks and stuff you have to walk on.  Comes down really to fit and we'll find that out pretty soon. AHM



Hey, welcome to the boards, AHM!  Great to have you here.


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## JimG. (Aug 9, 2005)

AHM said:
			
		

> Jim G:  Thanks for  the tip on the Garmont adrenaline!  The adrenaline is an alpine boot with a changable sole.  It is not an AT boot by any stretch.  Have tried them on, not nuts on them.  Have a friend with them--ate his feet up during a week of touring in Rogers last year.  Don't want an everyday boot, want an AT specific boot for AT activities when I am actually touring.  Want the straight up Vibram sole cus after some tours there be rocks and stuff you have to walk on.  Comes down really to fit and we'll find that out pretty soon. AHM



For me, it's the perfect AT boot. Yes, it is stiff like an alpine boot, especially laterally. But other than that, it's AT all the way. Hinged cuff, Vibram soles. Easy to hike in. The changeable soles are an added bonus.

Then again, I don't tour for a week at a time and I could see how a more traditional AT boot would be better for that. I've also got a pair of Scarpa Lasers but those are like ballet slippers; great for touring, not great on the downhill.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on what you want. As you've said, fit is the key. Both the Denali and the Mega-ride are great boots. I'm biased towards the Garmonts because they have the thermoformable liners.


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## noski (Aug 9, 2005)

*Post Office Recycle Bin*

See what I found in the Post Office Recycle Bin? Go to http://www.jpeterman.com click on Men's Shirts- notably, Mad River Plaid. (Maybe Mr. Moderator can post a proper link)

EDIT: *Direct link* - Mod.


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## Greg (Aug 9, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> BTW...aren't we still waiting for SB's answers to the AZ challenge?


We are. JJ did update me last week and said he is working on it...


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## Rustyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

*Liftlines*

I'd forced that nightmare out of my mind until just now.  Comical!  How about the separate gates for doubles, triples and quads at the SB and GH bases????  Besides me (I'm a lawyer and inclined to obey rules), who abides by those directions?  Instead, a threesome will just scoot up the doubles line.  The lift ops need to be much more aggressive forming up quads at both SB and GH base and holding back those that cut in.  They do a good job elsewhere, I think.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2005)

Sorry about that...for some odd reason the URL function was not working...so I'm trying it again...

http://www.jpeterman.com/cgi-bin/sg...1085184&HTNAME=\html\jp-products/OM\1406.html 

is the link to the Mad River plaid as described above.

Cut and paste it into your browser 'cause the address code is throwing off my linking capability.


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## JimG. (Aug 9, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Sorry about that...for some odd reason the URL function was not working...so I'm trying it again...
> 
> http://www.jpeterman.com/cgi-bin/sg...1085184&HTNAME=\html\jp-products/OM\1406.html
> 
> ...



I tried and had the same problem...glad it's not just me.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: Liftlines*



			
				Rustyfan said:
			
		

> I'd forced that nightmare out of my mind until just now.  Comical!  How about the separate gates for doubles, triples and quads at the SB and GH bases????  Besides me (I'm a lawyer and inclined to obey rules), who abides by those directions?  Instead, a threesome will just scoot up the doubles line.  The lift ops need to be much more aggressive forming up quads at both SB and GH base and holding back those that cut in.  They do a good job elsewhere, I think.



This is an entirely useless "innovation" for them last year.  No one followed the rules b/c it becomes this cluster f*ck where groups are trying to get past each other into the right lane (if they've even bothered to look) in the midst of a big crowd.  It should be scrapped.  The scanning should definitely occur AFTER each group is formed and have made the turn for the chair.  

If it's true that they're not putting any money into preventative maintenance, that's a bad sign for sure.  Wasn't Ackland's role in SV supposed to be Mr. Ops guy with years of experience running a ski are in the Valley?  Has he alienated so many people in his short tenure that he had to bemoved to resort ops to keep him away from employees?  Is the reorg over the summer with Hardy Merrill taking over day-to-day running of the mtn going to be a positive?  Looks like he did a great job at North last year.


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## Rustyfan (Aug 9, 2005)

*Ackland*

I'm not an Ackland basher, but I really don't think he's the guy for that position.  He can be brusque and off-putting, which aren't characteristics you generally find in a manager of a big operation.  I think he's a valuable asset to the mountain, but not in that role.


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## bvibert (Aug 9, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try *THIS*

http://www.jpeterman.com/cgi-bin/sg...1085184&HTNAME=/html/jp-products/OM/1406.html


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## Lostone (Aug 9, 2005)

Hey Noski...  I have both of those shirts!  

For a whole lot less than $78, tho.  :wink:      :lol:


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## Schusseur (Aug 9, 2005)

Running a resort profitably is very tough. It's a business similar to an airline: high ongoing need for capital re-investment, yet no ability to raise prices much without losing your crowd. I think Win and Adam are doing a fine job considering the challenge. It's great to see them both out there every day, working the grounds and riding lifts with guests. Their hearts are in it. The gripes most of us have are a lot of old stories that, frankly, can't practically be fixed without a big capital infusion. The returns on that infusion would be limited, given the difficulty of developing anything in the valley. They're just trying to raise skier numbers while spending the least possible. I don't blame them at all. A problem is that given that situation, they should NEVER allow their customers to think they're being cheap. Customers are very smart at detecting any slight change in the direction of a weaker experience.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> daevious said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They lost Rob after what? six months?  They lost Bruce who had been there for ages and did a miraculous job providing pretty good on mountain dining with the poorest facilities imaginable.  Both of these important managers left within the past yar and a half.

The saying goes (and I believe it to be true) employees don't leave companies - they leave managers.  That's why I made the Newheart comment.  It wasn't meanspirited, it was based upon what I see, which is two very bright executive level operations guys walking away from Sugarbush because of their frustration with the new ownership. The grumbling I've heard from the line level associates only solidifies why I made that statement.


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## castlerock (Aug 10, 2005)

deadheadskier said:
			
		

> The saying goes (and I believe it to be true) employees don't leave companies - they leave managers.



Good point. I believe it true as well.

Interesting note on the food service management. I heard the hype last fall about the new "food guy". I didn't see anything significant in terms of an upgrade during the season.


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## smootharc (Aug 10, 2005)

*A few microcosmic and macrocosmic observations....*

This thread is really informative....and it got me thinking about a few things as they relate to Sugarbush (microcosmic) and the Mad River Valley (macrocosmic).  Alot of the observations regarding individual points as they relate to the SB experience are valid...and offered by the posters in mostly a spirit of positive hopes for an area they love.  That's a testament to the place and the people.  

But it's like a marriage....sometimes we get so caught up it becomes easy to point out small flaws in someone, and forget to step back and look at the overall picture.  I don't know the SV owners, but from all reports they are hands on, sincere, and trying to do the right thing.  And SB is just one part of a very special valley....a part of vermont that's escaped the "stratton-okemo-killington-evenStowe-ification" of the ski, and living experience.  Yes, there are nits to pick....but, wow, I'm pretty impressed with the overall on mountain experience.  And with the valley in a broader sense.  

Didn't ASC lose interest in the bush after their real estate plans were stymied ?  They did the ski infrastructure improvements with the idea that then they'd cash in with major real estate ventures.  They turned their attentions elsewhere when they realized how difficult that would be.  Perhaps that's a good thing.  Picture it....ASC does their thing....and more development follows.  Traffic lights need to be strung up and down the valley.  Outlet shopping arrives.  Traffic like Stowe and Manchester creeps along, horns blaring.  Captains of industry grouse and bluster at their table next to you at the Common Man....or their beasty little brats at the pizza joint.  Mascara Mountain....meet Mrs. MeanMuffin.  Can $100 lift tickets be far behind ?  It all becomes a bad dream....and replicates the experience of the very places we ran away from to find our way to the valley.  But here's SV, trying to create a coherent, environmentally sensitive master plan for the Lincoln Peak base area that is attempting to address issues the walk-up skier has had for years, and create some controlled real estate ventures that could help create the type of economic benefits that would allow further improvements to the ski experience.  The SV folks are putting their money where their mouths are....millions upon millions on the line....for us....and I'm rooting for them.  

My wife and I spent a lot of time deciding where to "buy-in" in ski country....and the Mad River Valley simply has no peer in our minds.  Year round activities....with an experience that is unspoiled and unparalleled.  Somehow the custodians of the valley have kept the place insulated from the sell out that some people term "progress".  We're one lucky bunch....depending upon how you look at things.  When I think of SB, I think of MRG, and the valley, too.  And how they all interconnect and provide something special. Something that is the antithesis of what has become the homogenized New England "Ski" experience.  Lucky us...

It is disconcerting to hear about the manangement level disruptions going on...as suggested earlier, generally not a great sign.  Hopefully they'll get those things sorted out.  All in all, though, a lot of positive stuff seems to be going on at the bush....and in the valley...


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 10, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> deadheadskier said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't tell me you didn't notice the new pizza kiosk in the GH lodge??!!  What a joke.  What I'd love to know is why they close down the food ops at around 2:30 when I see so many people walk in there after skiing for the afternoon and turn away b/c there's no food left.  You tend to work up an appetite skiing all day and it seems silly to me that they'd forego this potential business.


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## noski (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: A few microcosmic and macrocosmic observations....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> This thread is really informative....and it got me thinking about a few things as they relate to Sugarbush (microcosmic) and the Mad River Valley (macrocosmic).  Alot of the observations regarding individual points as they relate to the SB experience are valid...and offered by the posters in mostly a spirit of positive hopes for an area they love.  That's a testament to the place and the people.



I *love* this guy. You're hired. Lostone and SRO- where do we find more like him?


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## smootharc (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Hey now....*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> smootharc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only my wife gets to say "I love this guy"....and I rarely give her reason to other than under some sort of duress.... :wink: 

Forgot to mention in all my ramblings that one aspect of the SB experience I found quite progressive and unusual was their Slide Brook / Wilderness Experience angle.  Thought that was cool  - though couldn't get in on any last season.  Was planning to this year - anyone have any direct experience with the guided wilderness stuff ?  

Looks more and more like a AZ Sugarbush day of some sort would draw quite a pack....


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 10, 2005)

The MRV is mellow and laid back in the summer compared to Stowe or Manchester....I couldn't agree more. So far the real estate prices have remained fairly low when compared to the other ski towns.

Noski..if they decide to make the traffic light at the bottom of the access rd permanent will you join me in a little midnight traffic light repositioning...lol I bet Tin and Spook would help.

I hear Stowe needs another one. Wouldn't they be happily surprised to find a nice new one, barely used, on their doorstep one morning.  :lol:


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## Greg (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Hey now....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> Looks more and more like a AZ Sugarbush day of some sort would draw quite a pack....


ALLSKIING/Bob R - are you guys paying attention?!    :wink:


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## castlerock (Aug 10, 2005)

That traffic light will be gone when the bridge is finished (I hope)

As for the wilderness tours, go ahead check it out. There is always some cost for knowledge, and at least one of the fellow new posters here is a guide.

If forced to make an educated guess, I'd opine that well less than 10% of the folks that head to Slidebrook, are paying customers.


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## AHM (Aug 10, 2005)

*What's right at SB and the backcountry*

All:  For the guy who pointed out all the good things and not to get lost in minutea (sp), you are absolutely right.  I think many post on the problems because they understand the place is on a wing and a prayer and want it to go well.  Others want their pet peeve problems fixed.  Me:  I simply point out observations.  That certainly won't change where I ski.  The area(and that includes the front/back and MRG) simply has the best skiing in the east, bar none.

The concept of the valley and interconnectedness:  Very very true.  Here's a great way to hammer that point home:  Take the point to point hike of Lincoln gap to App gap in mid October.  You'll cross all 3 ski areas and see great views of the valley all the way.  As you cross all three, you will not only be psyched to ski, but you'll realize just how interconnected the valley really is and how the areas and the valley all need to work together.......on top of it all.........you'll get a great hike.

Bush backcountry:  tip of the iceberg.  They do not understand what they have and do not understand yet how to market it. There are a few volts getting to the bulb, but it is just causing a flickering.  For those who are new to eastern woods skiing, then a trip with the outback program will be good. But the program needs major expansion, a shift in focus, and whole scaling marketing approach to let eastern skiers know that the bush has great backcountry skiing and the right people (missing at the moment) are there to get them started off on the right foot as they expand their skiing experience to encounter areas not part of the ski area.AHM


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## castlerock (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: What's right at SB and the backcountry*



			
				AHM said:
			
		

> But the program needs major expansion, a shift in focus, and whole scaling marketing approach to let eastern skiers know that the bush has great backcountry skiing and the right people (missing at the moment) are there to get them started off on the right foot as they expand their skiing experience to encounter areas not part of the ski area.AHM



Speak of the Devil....
AHM, what do you mean by the "scaling marketing"?

WIth regards, to the "right people" are you referring to the folks marketing the experience? The Guides?. 

Maybe I'll get to share a few runs with you again this early season, and shoot the shxt.


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## noski (Aug 10, 2005)

> Noski..if they decide to make the traffic light at the bottom of the access rd permanent will you join me in a little midnight traffic light repositioning...lol I bet Tin and Spook would help.



I will if you guys help me pull the "Irasville" highway signs at the middle and south end of Waitsfield....me getting caught doing that might be bad.


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## AHM (Aug 10, 2005)

CR:  Typo was what I did.  They need a whole scale improvement in the marketing of the "backcountry".  It needs first to be better worked with the Forest service.  This is in the works, but I am not sure just how politically savy the person assigned to the task is.  The negotiation of the "policy" and "access" is absolutely critical and the right person will need to be performing that function.  IF that happens, the sky is truely the limit.

The focus needs to be better understood--ie what are we doing with this.  The concept of guided skiing needs to be better understood.  What does the guest want/need.  The guides approach needs revisiting and the areas approach to the guides and what they wish them to do needs revisiting.  The program is a breeze to grow in the right hands..........time will tell if we have "the good hands people".  Just look at all current ski mags, the emphasis on "outside the resort skiing" is huge.  The bush is arguably sitting on the cusp of this and they need to quickly grab this ball, cement a fantastic program and then get it out there.  There were numerous misses last year in this area.  Currently, their experience base (from management to guides) is limited from the perspective of guided skiing and what it entails, and exactly what is available.  The program building is a whole separate issue.  Not sure how many have ever gone guided skiing.  As I watch and listen, I feel few ever really have.  I also feel that the "commodity" or "resource" is not well understood.........or in other words they have no idea what they have available to them.

Take some runs and bs...........any time.  Season starts for me in Dec and will run til end of April this year.  My "focus" is shifting a bit this year, but suffice to say I'm sure I'll knock back 30 days at the bush.  We can gladly hook up and trade stories and lines.  Stacked about 3 cords of wood at my house last night, so that alone tells me that soon the skis will start the fall migration from my basement in upstate NY to VT.........It's a "cattle drive" I always look forward to.AHM


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## daevious (Aug 10, 2005)

*Here is the press release. Have at it.*

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

CONTACT:
JJ Toland
Communications Manager
Sugarbush Resort
802-583-6314 
jtoland@sugarbush.com
http://www.sugarbush.com

Sugarbush Resort Prepares For Next Phase of Redevelopment
***

Construction of Clay Brook Residences Expected to Begin by Month’s End

Warren, VT (August 10, 2005)- Footprint site work for the new Clay Brook residences at Sugarbush is expected to be complete by the end of August, Resort officials announced this week. Once the structure’s footprint has been excavated, Pizzagalli Construction of South Burlington will begin building the 133,000-square foot project.

Clay Brook, the flagship building in Sugarbush’s new Lincoln Peak Village, will feature 61 whole and fractional ownership units as well as a year-round dining facility, full valet services, an Owner’s Lounge, and a year-round outdoor heated pool. The Resort has sold fifty percent of the residences and expects to have the facility open to the public for the 2006-07 season. Construction of a new guest services lodge, originally slated for this summer, will begin next spring. Although it was Sugarbush’s intent to open a new lodge during the 2005-06 season, the Lincoln Peak Village project received its Act 250 and local permits later than expected pushing what would have been the first phase’s scheduled opening into March of 2006.

“In light of the new timeline and to provide the best experience for our winter visitors, we decided to construct the Lincoln Peak Village in phases,” remarked Sugarbush’s president of real estate Bob Ackland. “With the opening of the new lodge pushed into spring, it didn’t make sense from a guest services’ perspective to be building two structures simultaneously. The amount of heavy machinery and construction materials in the Lincoln Peak base area would have significantly detracted from the guest experience,” continued Ackland.

The new Lincoln Peak Village is part of Sugarbush’s commitment to not only increase the bed base in the Mad River Valley, but also to greatly improve the Resort’s guest experience. The initial phases of the village will focus on construction of three buildings. The first being the Clay Brook residences with the other two new guest services lodges being built in subsequent construction seasons. When complete, the new base village will offer significantly more square footage for locker and dining space and will offer greater convenience to all Resort guests.

An interim village, consisting of a ticketing facility, ski and ride school, rentals, guest services, and a new 5,000-square foot Sprung Instant Structure(R) to house the Resort’s children’s programs, will be built for this season between the Village Double chair and the Poma surface lift on the future site of one of the new lodges.

“As it exists now, a guest has to walk all over the base area to get what they need to enjoy a day on the hill. The interim village is going to greatly improve our visitors’ experience because it will be a central hub where guests can purchase tickets, get rentals and sign up for ski and ride lessons,” offered Resort president Win Smith. Continued Smith, “Plus, with the new Sprung structure our children’s programs will be gaining an additional 2,000-square feet of space and guests will be able to more conveniently access the beginner slopes and lifts.” With the children’s programs moving to the Sprung structure, additional guest space will be available this year in the Gate House Lodge, Smith said.

Sprung Instant Structures(R) are innovative and highly versatile semi-permanent buildings used throughout the resort world to provide guest services and comfort in all weather conditions during construction phases.

The interim village will be landscaped in the spirit of a mountain hamlet and provide walk-out service on newly-graded learning terrain. The new learning area will have a Magic Carpet surface lift. Expansion of the Resort’s 22-acre parking facility, additional parking behind the Lincoln Peak snowmaking building and significant environmental improvements are also well underway. 

Offered Smith, “We have been extremely pleased with our sales efforts to date. Ninety-three percent of our reservations for Clay Brook residences converted to actual Purchase and Sale contracts. That high of a conversion rate is unheard of in this business. People are excited to see this project moving forward.”
-30-


----------



## noski (Aug 10, 2005)

*Nice work, Daevious*

You beat me by mere moments in posting the release. Honest, Lostone, I was on it! Good work, and I do think our thread will overtake Guess the Ski Area.


----------



## daevious (Aug 10, 2005)

www.sprung.com

(thanks, noski--you can have the next one.)


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 10, 2005)

I'd say that 10% estimate for guided skiers in Slide Brook is probably on the high side.  More like 5%, if that.  AHM definitely preaches the truth when talking about how this is a huge opportunity for them.  The problem, as I understand it, is that any expansion of that program is inherently caught up in Forest Service approval processes - who knows how long that could take or how restrictive the end result could be?  I've long been an advocate of running more shuttle buses to and from the Slide Brook Rd. pick up spot.  Of course, more people in the SBB will mean less snow for me any my crew, but if the trade off is a healthy and prosperous SB Resort, then I'm OK with that.  The SBB is a HUGE area, and new lines will always be found if necessary.

I must say, that I LOVE the fact that they took a cat up the egress road for Slide Brook in early March to smooth out the whoop-de-doos that had formed.  Not sure how legal that was, but it was definitely welcomed.


----------



## Greg (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Here is the press release. Have at it.*



			
				daevious said:
			
		

> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
> 
> CONTACT:
> JJ Toland
> ...


See....now you guys are making me look bad. How'd you get this PR before me... :-?  :x  

http://news.alpinezone.com/5117/

Carry on you smarty pants RSN exiles...


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Here is the press release. Have at it.*



			
				daevious said:
			
		

> An interim village, consisting of a ticketing facility, ski and ride school, rentals, guest services, and a new 5,000-square foot Sprung Instant Structure(R) to house the Resort’s children’s programs, will be built for this season between the Village Double chair and the Poma surface lift on the future site of one of the new lodges.
> 
> “As it exists now, a guest has to walk all over the base area to get what they need to enjoy a day on the hill. The interim village is going to greatly improve our visitors’ experience because it will be a central hub where guests can purchase tickets, get rentals and sign up for ski and ride lessons,” offered Resort president Win Smith. Continued Smith, “Plus, with the new Sprung structure our children’s programs will be gaining an additional 2,000-square feet of space and guests will be able to more conveniently access the beginner slopes and lifts.” With the children’s programs moving to the Sprung structure, additional guest space will be available this year in the Gate House Lodge, Smith said.
> 
> ...



Sad to see that they are having problems   

 Oh boy, here we go...more 'temporary' buildings...why do I not like the sound of where this is going?   :roll:


----------



## Strat (Aug 10, 2005)

Seeing as the instability they've gone through so far, seeing something in print seems to me to be a large step in the right direction... at least they have a plan that's clearly laid out at the moment, instead of the hazy ideas that existed before... I don't really see this as a problem, think things are looking better... at least, I want to... wondering about the moving of these facilities to down by the village chair now... hoping that won't cause too much congestion down in that area...


----------



## daevious (Aug 10, 2005)

*Re: Here is the press release. Have at it.*



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Sad to see that they are having problems
> 
> Oh boy, here we go...more 'temporary' buildings...why do I not like the sound of where this is going?   :roll:



Sorry, don't understand what you mean--those sound to me like solutions, not problems.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 10, 2005)

Well I'm glad they came up with the temp structure idea.  That should really help with the convenience factor.  I guess this means they are evacuating the Sugar Bear programs from the GH Lodge?  Hope so - it's far too cramped in there.  If so, any ideas on what they'll do with the room that opens up?


----------



## daevious (Aug 10, 2005)

I don't know what the plans are for the Sugarbear/Minibear spaces, but there's more than that. For example, every weekend day there were 200+ Blazer kids (and their coaches) scrambling for seats at lunchtime in the Gatehouse and Valley House. They will all be out of the lodges and into the "Instant Structure" instead.


----------



## Schusseur (Aug 10, 2005)

That's going to be a big hole to get around if you're coming from the old village.


----------



## Treeskier (Aug 10, 2005)

*Worked in Slidebrook w/ outback guides last weekend*

The Pin ball alley (as ski patrol calls the steep pitch 3/4 of the way across the Slidebrook travers) is now greatly impoved. Plus lots of large blown down dead trees on the official trails are cut up and used to fill in holes or cover rocks. 

As for the hotel/sports center...John Egan said he (righly so) needed a place to run ski school starting in Oct. not November.

I guess RSN is dead. My first post. Ski Yah.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Aug 10, 2005)

noski said:
			
		

> > Noski..if they decide to make the traffic light at the bottom of the access rd permanent will you join me in a little midnight traffic light repositioning...lol I bet Tin and Spook would help.
> 
> 
> 
> I will if you guys help me pull the "Irasville" highway signs at the middle and south end of Waitsfield....me getting caught doing that might be bad.



 :lol: Yeah, the Irasville thing is kinda funny. Once inawhile I got asked where the Irasville Post Office is. 

It is confusing but Ira Allen and his bro are war heroes. Guess Irasburg wasn't enough.   lol


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 11, 2005)

*Re: Worked in Slidebrook w/ outback guides last weekend*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> The Pin ball alley (as ski patrol calls the steep pitch 3/4 of the way across the Slidebrook travers) is now greatly impoved. Plus lots of large blown down dead trees on the official trails are cut up and used to fill in holes or cover rocks.
> 
> As for the hotel/sports center...John Egan said he (righly so) needed a place to run ski school starting in Oct. not November.


Are you referring to the access route on top or the egress route at the bottom?  Great to hear about the clearing up of the dead fall.  

Also, kudos to Egan.  Sounds like a smart move to get their act together before the crowds show up.


----------



## Lostone (Aug 11, 2005)

So much to answer...

Noski...Surrrre!   :roll:   I do the rumors right away and you can't stay on top of the facts.  Sheesh!    :roll:     :wink:   

Schusseur, Most of the landscaping Takes what was the first part of the parking lot and the bank.  It leaves the normal high path from the village.  Not sure where the new beginners' magic carpet will be, but as it is (_And I live in the village, so I have reason to check_) I don't think there'll be a problem getting past.

As to Slidebrook, I believe what they are allowed to do (official tours and people free skiing.) is very limited by their agreement with the forrest service.  

As for the light, I think it is off?  I haven't seen it alive for weeks and think the bridge might be done.  

Maybe we could move it and the Irasville signs to the same area?  Say on North Fayston road?  Your driving along and you come across a sign welcoming you to Irasville and a stoplight?   :lol:


----------



## djspookman (Aug 11, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> The MRV is mellow and laid back in the summer compared to Stowe or Manchester....I couldn't agree more. So far the real estate prices have remained fairly low when compared to the other ski towns.
> 
> Noski..if they decide to make the traffic light at the bottom of the access rd permanent will you join me in a little midnight traffic light repositioning...lol I bet Tin and Spook would help.
> 
> I hear Stowe needs another one. Wouldn't they be happily surprised to find a nice new one, barely used, on their doorstep one morning.  :lol:



yup.. i'd help, but Its already gone.  I took my bike out for a road loop last week and ended up at the bottom of the access road and was pleasantly surprised to find the light gone. (I drive down to rt 17 to get to work)

dave


----------



## vtskibum (Aug 11, 2005)

*my mill tells me...*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Well I'm glad they came up with the temp structure idea.  That should really help with the convenience factor.  I guess this means they are evacuating the Sugar Bear programs from the GH Lodge?  Hope so - it's far too cramped in there.  If so, any ideas on what they'll do with the room that opens up?



My understanding is that space will be used for the bullwell tuning house but I only operate on passing rumors as I have no access to "authorized" information.


----------



## Strat (Aug 11, 2005)

Regarding the traffic light: it has been gone for a few weeks now, bridge is complete... I was going to post before when people first started mentioning it, but thought maybe I had missed something...


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2005)

*Re: Here is the press release. Have at it.*



			
				daevious said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I hear temporary buildings instead of actual structures, it conjures up images of the addition to the Gatehouse Lodge that ASC which was meant to be 'temporary' and is still there.  It also is reminiscent of Middlebury's 'bubble' which was also supposed to be temporary and is still there years later....


----------



## smootharc (Aug 11, 2005)

*Re: SB and the backcountry*



			
				AHM said:
			
		

> The area(and that includes the front/back and MRG) simply has the best skiing in the east, bar none.  Bush backcountry:  tip of the iceberg...



The SB backcountry discussion certainly adds a new dimension to this thread.  It would be a first in the East (I think) to have a resort wholeheartedly plunge into a coherent backcountry ski, guiding (and education?) program.   The response levels from just the interest that lays latent would probably blow their minds.  I imagine people would be tres keen. 

One thing that's always interested me has been maps, topographic info, photos, ski routes, etc.  I touched upon this as it relates to SB and the Valley in a previous thread....sort of BC from  the "side door".

http://forums.alpinezone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5062

I realize this type of information gathering can upset some folks...those who've put considerable time and effort into finding and maintaining their stashes.   (look at that guy who published the photo guide to Alta about 12 years or so ago....they practically burned him at the stake.  I think the book is a collectible these days....anyways it resides proudly in my skiing and climbing library).  But perhaps an overall "program" of BC skiing in the valley would benefit everyone.  Looking at the whole body of potential BC skiers, probably a full 90% of them are middle agers looking for a lift accessed, not "too out of bounds" out of bounds run or two with a guided group.  They'll stay in certain more well trod areas of the BC.  Then there's the more self sufficent groups who are really putting it out there and on the line....most of the former folks will never trod where the latter ones do.  Everyone stays happy.   A lot of the issues relating to access on Forest Service/GOv't land are addressed and discussed and debated (and lawsuited) in the rock climbing community....and there are certainly no easy answers.  

But I'm encouraged by the comments above and later in this thread about the BC "resource"....and intelligently approaching some sort of plan for it's enjoyment. From people who sound like they know first-hand....it sounds like the Green Mountain Crest area from Lincoln through MRG is some prime, prime BC skiing.

P.S. Anyone seeking a "dumb older brother type who stocks a 150lb. backpack full of powerbars for anyone's taking" as a 3rd or 4th wheel for a "this side of extreme" Slide Brook day here or there....well, this winter I'll be much, much more around the valley.  Plus, my brain is swiss cheese, so I won't even remember where we go.  Plus, I'm ugly and way beyond uncool, too, so the cool backcountry ski chicks won't even give me a second glance as they focus on you, the big cheese, the head honcho, the top dog, the benevolent one..... 

P.P.S.  Got an e-mail from Skiershop.com that Meathead's Film "Epoch" has finally shipped.  Lots of BC stuff in that, if I remember correctly.  Can't wait....


----------



## noski (Aug 11, 2005)

*Re: my mill tells me...*



			
				vtskibum said:
			
		

> Tin Woodsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your "passing info" is right, vtskibum. Additional space for lockers and storage will be there too. The temp village will house all the the skier services that will be there when the contstruction is complete. 

oh, and SRO- there is already a "stop light" up toward North Fayston Rd. Anyone remember where it is.....? Let's see who is on the ball here.


----------



## Lostone (Aug 11, 2005)

Is that a stop light or a cow crossing light?


----------



## noski (Aug 11, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Is that a stop light or a cow crossing light?



Well....if the cow light is flashing, you better not hit Mrs. Turner because she will be in the middle of Rt 100 waving her red flag! I think it almost qualifies as a stop light, don't you??  :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Aug 14, 2005)

So the story I heard this weekend is that some of the "temporary buildings" for the family center will be the present Guest services buildings, which will be moved over to the right of where they are now.  

I think the rental trailers will move over there, too, so there will be a partially familiar look to part of the temporary family center area.

Should be a very interesting next few weeks, as the dance of the buildings begins.   :wink:


----------



## mtnlady (Aug 17, 2005)

*Unofficially official*

Hi guys. I can give some details on the plans for the Lincoln Peak Village
construction - at last!!

The functionality of the Family Center will be accomplished for the 2005-2006
season as intended originally by moving some of the pre-existing structures
and adding others onto the footprint of the planned new "lodge".  Infrastructure for utiliities and environmental considerations are now in place, ready to build that building later.  As you know per SB's public release last week, the project is on schedule in its lodging component - that being a
priority to honor commitments to the purchasers.  I personally am relieved to have this revised construction plan and see it as good guest service.

Here's what I can pass on for details:
Called the Interim Village Plan: all kids ski & ride programs will be housed in the new/temporary 500 X100 structure; the pre-existing Ski/Ride Schoolhouse and the Rental Shop will be moved onto the new footprint; a
new tickets building will also be located on that footprint.  The Guest Service Kiosk will reappear at the top of the new stairs from the parking lot.
The former Minibear Den (under the Castlerock Pub and its deck) will house the repair shop and season's pass, and I believe the LP Seasonal Lockers will be moved down from the Valley House Lodge into the same space - right under the Pub!  The old space for those lockers will become employee locker room space. The old Sugarbear space on the bathroom level of the Gatehouse Lodge will be used for overflow seating/storage, with some of us displaced managers moving to small offices there as well; the Sun Kid will be re-located adjacent to new ski & ride facilities.

Alpine Options will remain in its same spot/same building.  I hope the secure lock-up for day/overnight storage of skis and boards will be relocated adjacent to the GS Kiosk as that has worked very well in past seasons.

And by the way, let me put in a plug for the Ambassador Program -- anyone interested in joining can inquire through Human Resources.  With all this new stuff, plus the construction going on, we'd love more ernest volunteers.

Glad to be back -- and I've said all I can about this for now.  Now, back to summertime, and the gardens...


----------



## ALLSKIING (Aug 17, 2005)

*Re: Unofficially official*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> Hi guys. I can give some details on the plans for the Lincoln Peak Village
> construction - at last!!
> 
> The functionality of the Family Center will be accomplished for the 2005-2006
> ...


Thanks for the update..I can't wait to see it when it is all said and done.


----------



## Strat (Aug 17, 2005)

*Re: Unofficially official*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> Alpine Options will remain in its same spot/same building.


Thanks for the update... love to hear official words... just wondering about this one point... last time I checked the yellow alpine options building was half-demolished, with pieces of insulation poking out, and a pile of rubble on the ground... is there going to be a temporary wall or something?


----------



## Lostone (Aug 17, 2005)

I'd heard that whole section of buildings were to be moved to the new guest services area, too.  They certainly cleared out the merchandise.  

But like I say, I don't deal in facts...  Only rumors.   :wink:    :lol:


----------



## mtnlady (Aug 18, 2005)

*Don't know & will find out*

Strat - I have not been to the LP base to witness the progress.  From my official source my understanding is the Bull Wheel end of the yellow (Alpine Options) building ended up needing to be demolished as opposed to moved, in order to put down footings for this season's construction phase.  The remainder of the structure will be closed in and refit for Alpine Options.

Lostone - I'll meet your rumor, and raise you one (or several) facts as soon as I can get answers.  Can you believe no one's working yet today, and it's after 7AM?!


----------



## Strat (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Don't know & will find out*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> Strat - I have not been to the LP base to witness the progress.  From my official source my understanding is the Bull Wheel end of the yellow (Alpine Options) building ended up needing to be demolished as opposed to moved, in order to put down footings for this season's construction phase.  The remainder of the structure will be closed in and refit for Alpine Options.


Alright, sounds good, hope they can make it work out effectively...


----------



## Treeskier (Aug 18, 2005)

*RSN fails but the need for information stays alive*

Funny how RSN fails but the need for information live on loud.

ON my earlier post...the ski patrol named downward slope on the upper travers to slidebrook has been named the "Pin Ball Alley" rightly so. (we did edit is some....safety first") 

The light is getting shorter. Snow will be flying in the continental USA with in days. ( I predict with in 10 days) 

Ski Yah

 :beer:


----------



## Strat (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: RSN fails but the need for information stays alive*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Snow will be flying in the continental USA with in days. ( I predict with in 10 days)


Didn't it already snow in Yellowstone a week or two back when they had temps in the 30's?


----------



## smootharc (Aug 22, 2005)

*Small aside here....*

....but our local paper here in Syracuse had an article Sunday on swimming holes, and the correspondent for the area covering VT and much of New England had pegged Warren Falls as one of his top 5 in VT.  

Seems like people find the MRV due to the skiing, then realize there's so much more....all year round....where the valley shines....


----------



## Lostone (Aug 23, 2005)

I have to travel ~ 8 miles to town.

I used to live in Dracut, Mass.  I had to travel ~3.5 miles to the food store.  

It is quicker to do the 8 miles.

And on the way, instead of seeing house after house in postage stamp lots, I see fields, the river, and mountains.  

Life doesn't have to suck.   :beer:


----------



## Treeskier (Aug 24, 2005)

*More Claybrook News*

By now you know that we will be building an "Interim Village" at Lincoln Peak that will provide much improved convenience to our guests.  Parents may drive up near the village which will contain a new ticketing building, ski & ride office, first timer building, rentals and a new Sprung Structure for our children's programs - our the new Sugar Bear and Mini- Bear Dean.  It will be 5,000 square feet -  2,000 more than we currently have in the old Gate House Dens.  The Old Mini Bear Den will house our Bull Wheel shop this winter as well as our guest seasonal lockers.  The Sugar Bear Den will have additional locker space and luncheon seating.

So what is a Sprung?  It is actually manufactured in Calgary, Canada by a family named Sprung.  Ours is being custom made and is expected to arrive around the 15th of September and take a few weeks to install.  It will look  similar to the attached photo (bottom) and will be red with a gray house.  It is going to look very sharp, and we think the kids are going to love it. The rental and ski & ride buildings are scheduled to be moved over the next couple of weeks and construction of the new ticket office will begin shortly as well.

What is happening with parking?  It sure looks like a mess now, but it will not by opening day.  Please tell everyone to "Pardon our Progress :  We will be ready for you on opening day in December."  Yes, there will be some inconveniences this winter with the construction site around Claybrook.  Parking will not be as close, but the impact will be that the walk may take 30 - 60 seconds longer.  We will have shuttles running. Importantly, the on-mountain experience will not be negatively affected in any way.  In fact, there will be noticeable improvements.

Easy Rider is being graded to provide more and better beginner terrain.  Our Sun Kid lift will be located adjacent to the Interim Village and an easy walk from the Sprung.  Because our rental building and the children's area has been moved, there will be more space around the Bravo lift to shape our corrals and provide more room for movement.  Because the Seasonal Ticket office has been removed, there will be more space around the Gate House lift as well.

The Hill behind the Gate House is also been shaped to provide for some better movement. 

The Valley House will be fully operational this winter.  The cafeteria and Wunderbar will operated on weekends and holidays and The Mushroom will continue to operate as well.

Over the next two months there is going to be a tremendous amount of activity in and around the base area and people may wonder what the guest experience is going to be this year.  Our competitors will surely try to use it against us as well, so it is important that we all get the accurate word out to the Valley and to our guests.  We will be ready  to provide a great ski & ride this year.  Sugarbush is already a great mountain, and it is only getting better!

Thanks for your help with this! 

Win


----------



## Greg (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: More Claybrook News*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Thanks for your help with this!
> 
> Win


Is this Win, as in Sugarbush President Win Smith? If so, I'm truly flattered and welcome to AlpineZone.com!


----------



## Lostone (Aug 24, 2005)

Well...   yeah.. sorta.

Actually, that was someone named Greg, posting a letter from Win.

I knew, when I read it that it would confuse some.

Figured I'd wait until the question, to answer it.


----------



## Strat (Aug 25, 2005)

Nice to here some more official word, it's comforting seeing that they have secure plans in place...

Any word on the AZ challenge answers?


----------



## smootharc (Aug 25, 2005)

*Sorry if it's been posted before....*

...but had to be in the valley Tuesday. Heading to the check out at the Paradise Deli I spotted....."Powder" !!!!! - Annual Gear Issue.  Picked it up straight away, and, well, well, well....there's a page profile on SB trees and Slide Brook underutilization.  Hmmm.....


----------



## Greg (Aug 25, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Well...   yeah.. sorta.
> 
> Actually, that was someone named Greg, posting a letter from Win.
> 
> ...


  



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> Any word on the AZ challenge answers?


I think JJ was on vacation last week and was hoping to see them this week. I've been talking with Jeremy there as well and I do know it's on the to-do list. Stay tuned.


----------



## vtskibum (Aug 25, 2005)

*Strat (aka snowboarder757)*

I am pretty sure you are keeping your SBush historical site up to date.  I am not keeping mine current. I recently came across some old SBush trail maps and promotional/marketing pieces.  Let me know if you have interest in adding them to your site as I can make scans for you.  The maps are:

Glen Ellen - Undated - Titled Glen Ellen The Home of Summit Skiing.  This is a marketing piece but of interest is that it shows in conceptual drawing the trail that was planned above Inverness and talks about the Inn and Glen Ellen being under construction just to the right of the 700 car parking lot.  This a pre-SBush ownership days.

Glen Ellen - 70-71. Trail Map.  This is before Glen Ellen became part of SBush.  Love not only the trail names (only 4 or 5 remain the same) but lift tickets were 9.50, season passes were $180, and a group lesson was 5.  And of course for rentals you had your choice of WOOD or metal skis.

SBush - 78-79.  This was just after the addition of Glen Ellen to SBush and it's renaming to SBush North.  While this has the mountains shown with trail names written in I believe it is more of a brochure/marketing piece then a trail map.

SBush 78-79.  This is a combo trail map and SBush Valley piece.  There is a section on the GLM method of learning to ski which is what I learned under in NY.  Most of the pictures still show safety straps keeping people attached to their skis.


----------



## skibum1321 (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: More Claybrook News*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Please tell everyone to "Pardon our Progress :  We will be ready for you on opening day in December."


They must mean Lincoln Peak opening day by that?


----------



## Lostone (Aug 25, 2005)

Yep.  As of a couple years ago, they open North first and close it last.  One of those things I really don't like, but certainly understand.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: Strat (aka snowboarder757)*



			
				vtskibum said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure you are keeping your SBush historical site up to date.  I am not keeping mine current. I recently came across some old SBush trail maps and promotional/marketing pieces.  Let me know if you have interest in adding them to your site as I can make scans for you.  The maps are:
> 
> Glen Ellen - Undated - Titled Glen Ellen The Home of Summit Skiing.  This is a marketing piece but of interest is that it shows in conceptual drawing the trail that was planned above Inverness and talks about the Inn and Glen Ellen being under construction just to the right of the 700 car parking lot.  This a pre-SBush ownership days.



Yep, gotta love the unofficial/official addition that was cut above Inverness.  Isn't that Inn currently in operation?  



> Glen Ellen - 70-71. Trail Map.  This is before Glen Ellen became part of SBush.  Love not only the trail names (only 4 or 5 remain the same)...



LOVE the old trail names!  Royal Tartan, Flying Scotsman, Devil's Elbow, Hoot Mon, etc!


----------



## Strat (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: Strat (aka snowboarder757)*



			
				vtskibum said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure you are keeping your SBush historical site up to date.  I am not keeping mine current. I recently came across some old SBush trail maps and promotional/marketing pieces.  Let me know if you have interest in adding them to your site as I can make scans for you.  The maps are:
> 
> Glen Ellen - Undated - Titled Glen Ellen The Home of Summit Skiing.  This is a marketing piece but of interest is that it shows in conceptual drawing the trail that was planned above Inverness and talks about the Inn and Glen Ellen being under construction just to the right of the 700 car parking lot.  This a pre-SBush ownership days.
> 
> ...


Most definitely! I would absolutely LOVE to have all of these! As Hi-Res as possible please!   :wink:


----------



## Strat (Aug 26, 2005)

Relating to all this old map business: Teachski, not sure if you're reading this thread but in case, just saying I discovered the new 1969 ski atlas map of Glen Ellen on your site and am assuming your permission to include it on mine... if there's any problem though, let me know and I'll take it off...


----------



## Greg (Aug 26, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Relating to all this old map business: Teachski, not sure if you're reading this thread but in case, just saying I discovered the new 1969 ski atlas map of Glen Ellen on your site and am assuming your permission to include it on mine... if there's any problem though, let me know and I'll take it off...


PM her.


----------



## Strat (Aug 26, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good plan. I could email her as well.


----------



## vtskibum (Aug 26, 2005)

*Old Maps*

OK, have scanned 3 of the 4 pieces.  Strat, they are in your gmail address I got on your website..

Daevious (sp?).  I don't know if you are reading these or if your website is current (lost the addy) but let me know if you want any of these scans.

for that matter, anyone else.....

besides they were given to me by a local so why not share


----------



## daevious (Aug 26, 2005)

vtskibum,
Yes, I look in here from time to time. You get an A+ for spelling.

Strat can have an exclusive on the maps. Thanks for the offer.


----------



## Strat (Aug 29, 2005)

OK, all of VTSkibum's pieces have been uploaded and placed on the site, and I have added some new content as well, including a whole new page and extended information in the Combined page. Enjoy, and thanks again Skibum!


----------



## Treeskier (Aug 30, 2005)

*Price of fuel....what inpacts do you see?*

I see several things. Ticket prices have to go up to cover fuel increases. Skier days go down since it will now cost double the gas to get here. Groomers will will do less as will snowmaking. It is going to be an interesting season.


----------



## Strat (Aug 31, 2005)

So, latest construction news:
Apparently, they made the original clay brook hole too big, and had to fill it in - not sure whose fault that was. There is concrete poured, so we're off to some sort of start, but it's questionable whether they'll get something done before the winter... no sign of temporary buildings yet... lots of excavation going on at the bottom of the poma/village chair though... they did grade the previous steep slope quite nicely... yellow buildings are almost completely down, still a bit left... I counted 5 bulldozers yesterday, as well of lots of other heavy equipment, so there's definitely a lot of activity... oh, and for those who were wondering, the clay brook foundation site is actually out on the left side of the parking lot (when you're driving in), rather in front of the clocktower stairs... though it was going to be further over to the right myself, but I guess that's the plan...


----------



## Schusseur (Aug 31, 2005)

Gee, just paid $3.21/gallon in lower Connecticut. 290 miles each way to the bush at 25 miles per gallon means going up each weekend is going to be pricey. Good thing I don't drive an SUV.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> So, latest construction news:
> Apparently, they made the original clay brook hole too big, and had to fill it in - not sure whose fault that was.



:roll:  Sorry to hear that.  Did you take drainage and other site work into account for the larger size?



> There is concrete poured, so we're off to some sort of start, but it's questionable whether they'll get something done before the winter... no sign of temporary buildings yet... lots of excavation going on at the bottom of the poma/village chair though... they did grade the previous steep slope quite nicely... yellow buildings are almost completely down, still a bit left... I counted 5 bulldozers yesterday, as well of lots of other heavy equipment, so there's definitely a lot of activity... oh, and for those who were wondering, the clay brook foundation site is actually out on the left side of the parking lot (when you're driving in), rather in front of the clocktower stairs... though it was going to be further over to the right myself, but I guess that's the plan...



Some ways to go...thanks for the details!  :beer:


----------



## Lostone (Aug 31, 2005)

Again, I deal only in rumors, but the hole on the right, which now has (_OK, maybe had, before today's rain. _) quite extensive landscaping is to be where the family center is to be.  That is where the buildings are to be moved, and the Sprung thing will be for this season.

I was expecting that Alpine Options would be moving, as they had emptied it out, but now it appears Mtnlady's post about them moving the ski and ride and firs timer buildings was correct.  (_I *hate* those people who rely on *facts*_)  The Ski & ride bldgs are on blocks.

As to the hole being dug too big, that may not be so.  They had snowmaking pipes running thru that area and have spent quite a bit of time digging up the old ones and installing the new ones.  

Work continues.  They were even out there today in sheets of rain.


----------



## Strat (Sep 1, 2005)

Regarding the hole being too big:
That wasn't inference, that was rumor. Haha, yeah, heard it from a guy working at the Sugarbush Village condos desk a few days ago... so take it or leave it, I dunno, I'm sure it won't ever appear in a public release...


----------



## Treeskier (Sep 5, 2005)

*The walls that are being built are the for the inner court yard*

The walls that where poured Friday are the inner court yard. Clay brook is to go around it. Into the parking lot.....into the clock tower area. 22 achers has been re-graded as with the area behind the snowmaking plant to make up for lost parking. No new woods trails this winter but I hear they may let us do some work for them......maybe over Home Owners? In the same vain as Mad River Work Days. Ski Yah.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: The walls that are being built are the for the inner court yard*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> The walls that where poured Friday are the inner court yard. Clay brook is to go around it. Into the parking lot.....into the clock tower area. 22 acres has been re-graded as with the area behind the snowmaking plant to make up for lost parking.



Sounds good...any pics?  



> No new woods trails this winter but I hear they may let us do some work for them......maybe over Home Owners? In the same vain as Mad River Work Days. Ski Yah.



:beer:  Good idea...get out the loppers and handsaws!


----------



## castlerock (Sep 5, 2005)

I'm in for homeowners.

Treeskier, are you (they actually) serious about this? Who would be organizing it?


----------



## Strat (Sep 5, 2005)

Best available pic right now:
http://www.sugarbush.com/images/summer/home/homebanner1.jpg


----------



## Lostone (Sep 6, 2005)

*Even better available pix:*

That danged treeskier stole my investigative report!   :angry:      :lol: 

Yes, what shows in the pix is the back of the building, and only part of that.  8)

As to the hole being dub too big, that was deefinately pipe work.  They had to redo where the snowmaking pipes went.  They also had to redo where water and sewer pipes went.  And in the process found still more pipes about which they'd had no clue. :roll: 

They've moved most of the buildings for the family center to their new spot and are making good progress at working on the building. 

Here are some of the more recent shots:

http://groups.msn.com/JimsSceneryPix/recentpix.msnw?Page=6

Page 5 has some earlier shots, including baselines.  There are a few Claybrook shots on P 7 as well as a few sunrise on the mountain, shots.  8)


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Sep 6, 2005)

*pics*

thanks for the great pics. You probably did not notice but I love view of Warren Gap you got in pic #6370. Loks like you were standing at Gatehouse looking east. 

I have often tried to point out WG to people but in the larger perspective it's hard for folks to see.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 6, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> I'm in for homeowners.
> 
> Treeskier, are you (they actually) serious about this? Who would be organizing it?



I'll second that.  Great idea.  One I've been a fan of for a while.  BTW, when is homeowner's weekend?


----------



## Treeskier (Sep 6, 2005)

*Good letter by Win on the Sugarbush Web site*

Very nice letter by Win on the Sugarbush Web site today. Information is key.  

Good to see they are not locking in a closing date!!

Snowmaking start date is much better. 

Hopefully they will someday go back to opening for the Ski Swap weekend. 

Ski Yah.


----------



## djspookman (Sep 7, 2005)

yet another 'bush update-

While visiting my wifes office at North last night, we noticed some construction going on at the GMVS building-I think I heard somewhere that they're adding on to it, but we didn't go up to check it out as they were still working when we were there.

dave


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: Good letter by Win on the Sugarbush Web site*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Very nice letter by Win on the Sugarbush Web site today. Information is key.
> 
> Good to see they are not locking in a closing date!!
> 
> ...



Anyone mind posting it here for us to see?


----------



## castlerock (Sep 7, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> BTW, when is homeowner's weekend?



Columbus day weekend. I believe the official name is now "Community weekend"


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 7, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> Tin Woodsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Normally I'd be all over that.  Alas, my fiance wouldn't be too happy if I blew off our wedding to do some work on the hill.  Women just don't understand.  ;-)


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> castlerock said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:roll:  Yeah, they just don't understand priorities I guess.


----------



## castlerock (Sep 7, 2005)

...can't live with em,...can't shoot em.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 7, 2005)

castlerock said:
			
		

> ...can't live with em,...can't shoot em.



I always preferred "can't live with them, can't live with them"


----------



## castlerock (Sep 7, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> I always preferred "can't live with them, can't live with them"



Well at least you are going in with your eyes open!


----------



## vtskibum (Sep 7, 2005)

*So I have to ask.....*

Have you seen the new A frame (sandwich board) sign at the entrance to LP?  

"Pardon our Progress" - followed by some text about opening day - and closed with Win's name.

In my world progress is a good thing.  Asking to be pardoned is a bad thing.  As an ex-marketing person I figure they either don't get it or Win is sticking his nose up at us because many didn't believe SBush would ever pull construction off....

thoughts?


----------



## noski (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: So I have to ask.....*



			
				vtskibum said:
			
		

> Have you seen the new A frame (sandwich board) sign at the entrance to LP?
> 
> "Pardon our Progress" - followed by some text about opening day - and closed with Win's name.
> 
> ...


 Very insightful of you. I see that sign several times a week and wondered why it nagged at me. I wondered briefly why they were apologizing for something so important and positive, then promptly forgot about it.


----------



## Strat (Sep 8, 2005)

Not that big a deal... I'd rather have an official word from the top then learn by rumor...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Not that big a deal... I'd rather have an official word from the top then learn by rumor...



But rumors are better :wink:  :lol:


----------



## Strat (Sep 8, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much more fun, yes.


----------



## Lostone (Sep 8, 2005)

The way I read it was a link.

Normal line:
Pardon our dust.

In this case, the dust leads to progress.

Thus, Pardon our progress, asking your pardon for the dust and promising your patience to be rewarded with progress.   :idea: 

But that's just the way I saw it.


.


----------



## castlerock (Sep 9, 2005)

*sugarbush info for those on email notification for this thread*

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2005/response.htm?resort=sugarbush


----------



## Lostone (Sep 12, 2005)

*Green Mountain Stage Race*

Not sure this is the best place for it, but on Labor Day weekend, they had the Green Mountain Stage Race in the area.  

I went down and took some pix of them, as they passed by the Sugarbush Access road.

Thought I would share them in case any of the racers were looking in, or anyone else was into bike racing.  

I'll probably have them up on my MSN site  for a couple of weeks.


----------



## madskier6 (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: Green Mountain Stage Race*

Great pictures, Lostone!  I was in the valley that weekend and the weather was beautiful.  I missed the scenes you shot but saw the riders in other parts of the valley that weekend.  Thanks for sharing your pics!


----------



## Lostone (Sep 14, 2005)

_*Everybody*_ was in the valley that weekend!

And what a great weekend to be in Vermont!  And last weekend was a touch better.

Glad you liked the pix.  Hoping some of the people that were riding would get a chance to see them.  Maybe I'll put another link in the Misc forum.


----------



## madskier6 (Sep 16, 2005)

*SB Season Passes*

I bought SB season passes for me and the family yesterday because prices on passes go up significantly after Sept. 19.

It is painful in September to have to fork over $1,000 + for passes :x  but well worth it when I think of the endless skiing we'll be able to get in this season.  

After forking over all that dough, I'm even more psyched for winter than before (and I was pretty damn psyched to begin with).  I bought SB season passes last year but I forgot how painful it initially is to hand over all that cash and then have to wait 2-3 months to be able to use them.

Other than the ASC All for One Pass, has anybody else already picked-up season passes for this year at any ski area?


----------



## tjd (Sep 17, 2005)

*Re: SB Season Passes*



			
				madskier6 said:
			
		

> Other than the ASC All for One Pass, has anybody else already picked-up season passes for this year at any ski area?



Yup - I bought the family passes to Catamount back in March! A 9 month wait to use them.

And I will be up at the Bush this winter too.  

So when does the snow begin ???


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 19, 2005)

Was up on the hill Saturday taking a look at things here and there.  I'm not sure if the pictures we've seen can convey how dramatically the hill behind the GH lodge as been changed.  Looks like they are planning to remove it entirely - they've taken half of it away thus far.  Lots of grading work downhill of the GH quad base terminal.  I suppose this is where the new temp village and beginner area will be.  Nice to get it out of the way of everyone coming down Spring Fling/Snowball.  Much of the parking lot is gone due to Clay Brook construction.  The rest of the main lot and the one behind the snowmaking bldg are a mess right now, with piles of dirt and rock all over the place.

Leaves are definitely starting to change at the upper elevations, but of course I could only see that from afar....


----------



## Strat (Sep 19, 2005)

Was up on saturday too... looks like... well, a mess. They obviously have a plan for what they're going to do, but as Woodsman said, there's piles of dirt and rock strewn about... forgot to bring my camera, could've shown everyone how that hill behind the lodge looks... they've terraced it, not sure about plans to remove it, but they've definitely done quite a bit...


----------



## Lostone (Sep 19, 2005)

Taht teraced part is gone.  It now slopes from the top, evenly to the lodge.  They're pulling lots more dirt from there.  

I should have a few pix up tomorrow.  

They are making progress, tho.  

Looks extra messy as they are working in a bunch of places at the same time.   It will be interesting.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 20, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Taht teraced part is gone.  It now slopes from the top, evenly to the lodge.  They're pulling lots more dirt from there.
> 
> I should have a few pix up tomorrow.
> 
> ...



I was wondering about that.  Even though the hill as we've known it is gone, there's still a pretty big slope there.  If they want to accomplish their goal of enabling increased skier traffic above the lodge (it presumably won't be possible in the new pedestrian village area below the lodge) then they're going to have to remove a lot more dirt.


----------



## Lostone (Sep 21, 2005)

*A day late and $.53 short?*

Got the pix for the latest Claybrook shots up.

Made a new album for the Claybrook series.  Will go back later and move some of the earlier shots there, but for now, the latest shots will be... :idea:   easy to find.    :lol: 

Claybrook  Pix 

.

.


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 22, 2005)

Check it out..More on there web page.


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## smootharc (Sep 23, 2005)

*Funny little magazine called "Hooked on the Outdoors"....*

....which I picked up at B&N last night has a "regional skiing" section in the back, and for the East it mentions all about Slide Brook basin and skiing the 'Bush.  Just a one pager with a few stock suggestions and nice photo.  

Mentions the BC at Sugarbush is unique in the east and compares it to the only thing like Western style BC in the East.  Not sure if that's true, but a nice mention.

http://www.hookedontheoutdoors.com/artman/article_1070.shtml

The link only goes to a page that mentions the section on "Regional Highlights" on page 70.  No click through to the actual text and image.


----------



## Lostone (Sep 23, 2005)

I didn't see anything there that would entice me to give them $9.95.   :-? 

That is a waste of a website.

They should at least have synopses of some of the articles?   :roll:


----------



## smootharc (Sep 24, 2005)

*Hey, take it up with their webmaster....*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I didn't see anything there that would entice me to give them $9.95.   :-? That is a waste of a website. They should at least have synopses of some of the articles?   :roll:



....I just report the news.  Though, remember, I'm the sucker that paid I think $4.99 for an issue of the thing at B&N, but I've got a clip file on the valley going, and like to have that kind of stuff. I was tempted to just pull out the one page at the store, but visions of burly security guys swooping in stopped me....

 :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Sep 24, 2005)

I wasn't complaining about you linking to their site.  It was just a critique of the site.  

Seemed that if you wanted to to make a site to sell something, you'd want to have something on it to draw people in?


----------



## smootharc (Sep 26, 2005)

*Hey, Lo, definitely a dead end site....*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I wasn't complaining about you linking to their site.  It was just a critique of the site.  Seemed that if you wanted to to make a site to sell something, you'd want to have something on it to draw people in?



Every industry seems to have some firms that put up sites like that. Lots of promise, but zilch in useful content.  Frustrating for us....and probably not too effective for them.  As you say, why bother.

Castlerock chair running today with 42" of fresh ?


----------



## Lostone (Sep 26, 2005)

*Shhhhhhh....*

Be Vewwy vewwwy qwiet!  

Don't tell everyone!   :lol:


----------



## Treeskier (Sep 30, 2005)

*Concreate is growing. Wind took out a lot of trees*

Claybrook is growing. 

Wind storm there yesturday that took out a lot of trees. Hopefully not to many on the trails.

See yah homeowners.


----------



## BNR (Sep 30, 2005)

Phew!

Just discovered this thread and read the whole lot in one go. It should probably have a warning that doing this will seriously impair your work rate...

Glad to see another Sugarbush forum (sort of) after the disappearance of RSN and the Mad River Forums.

Not being able to get there too often myself (it's rather expensive...), it's interesting to see those pics of the Clay Brook construction. They're certainly not doing that by halves! I hope it's successful, but I'm a little unsure about it. I actually really liked the way LP used to be! Sure, you had to walk to the rental place, and the lodges got SERIOUSLY crowded at weekends, but it had a real charm to it, and that's what keeps me coming back there. I do hope they don't end up turning Sugarbush into Killington, though. In comparison to Sugarbush, Killington seems a little charmless - you go up that access road, and it's full of stop lights and tack shacks and stuff. It just doesn't seem like the 'real' Vermont to me - more of an industrial skiing factory! Sugarbush, meanwhile, DOES feel like the real thing, and I really hope it continues to do so.

Still, I guess I'll just have to wait and see what it all turns out like. I wouldn't like to try and run a ski area myself, and if Clay Brook is what it takes to be successful, then so be it. Hope to make it there in January...


----------



## Lostone (Sep 30, 2005)

*Tho I'm sure they'd like the K-Mart money...*

I don't think anyone is trying or hoping to turn the bush into something like that.    :roll: 

Many from their customer base have been K-Mart shoppers in the past, and most find that to be nothing like Vermont.


----------



## daevious (Oct 3, 2005)

*Here* are a few photos of the construction at Lincoln Peak base area.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 3, 2005)

daevious said:
			
		

> *Here* are a few photos of the construction at Lincoln Peak base area.



Hey daevious.....last I remember from the RSN days were that you were moving to Burlington. Are you living in Warren yearround?


----------



## daevious (Oct 3, 2005)

SRO-
I don't think I ever contemplated a move to Burlington--that may've been somebody else--but yes, I am now a naturalized citizen of the Mad River Valley. Very nice here this morning:


----------



## djspookman (Oct 3, 2005)

daevious said:
			
		

> SRO-
> I don't think I ever contemplated a move to Burlington--that may've been somebody else--but yes, I am now a naturalized citizen of the Mad River Valley. Very nice here this morning:



nice "valley view" daevious!  The drive in this morning (6:30) was pretty fogged in from German Flats to Duxbury.. you must have taken that pic later on in the morning!

dave


----------



## madskier6 (Oct 3, 2005)

> Here are a few photos of the construction at Lincoln Peak base area.



WOW! Those pictures are great.  What a gorgeous day it was in the Valley yesterday.  Thanks for sharing those.    

Does anyone know whether all the Community Day festivities will be held at Lincoln Peak (i.e. BBQ and band(s))?  I know that they'll be doing chairlift rides from both LP and Mt. Ellen but it does not appear from those pictures that there is sufficient space with the construction going on to have all those activites at LP.

Looking forward to being there next weekend.   :beer:


----------



## noski (Oct 3, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> daevious said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Daevious- since it seems you get up nice and early, head up Bragg Hill and check out that early morning sun shining on Mt Ellen some crisp fall morning. It was clear and blue sky at 1800' this morning, but spook is right, it was pretty foggy at the valley floor.


----------



## noski (Oct 3, 2005)

madskier6 said:
			
		

> > Here are a few photos of the construction at Lincoln Peak base area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.sugarbush.com/summer/activities/detail_events/communityweekend.htm  Try this.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2005)

So are the lift rides free and open to the public?


----------



## madskier6 (Oct 3, 2005)

> So are the lift rides free and open to the public?



They are open to the public but they are not free unless you are already a SB season pass holder.  For anyone over 7 yrs old who is not a pass holder, the charge is $10.


----------



## noski (Oct 3, 2005)

madskier6 said:
			
		

> > So are the lift rides free and open to the public?
> 
> 
> 
> They are open to the public but they are not free unless you are already a SB season pass holder.  For anyone over 7 yrs old who is not a pass holder, the charge is $10.


Clarifier- that is SB pass holder for upcoming 05/06 season.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 3, 2005)

You think they'd do anything if they saw, oh I don't know, lopper handles sticking out of my backpack when I get on the chair?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> You think they'd do anything if they saw, oh I don't know, lopper handles sticking out of my backpack when I get on the chair?



I dunno...charge you more money or something bizarre :lol:


----------



## Lostone (Oct 3, 2005)

> You think they'd do anything if they saw, oh I don't know, lopper handles sticking out of my backpack when I get on the chair?



Well... Who do you think will be running those lifts?  

I would think the worst would be that they would ask where you were going.   :lol: 

And by the way, you should see the work they've done on the "official" woods trails.  I've seen Lew's, Eden, and Deeper Sleeper.  They have cleared a very clear line on each.  I'll post a pic of the bottom of Lew's soon.  It made me say "Wow!"


----------



## smootharc (Oct 4, 2005)

*Dumb question, Lo, but...*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> And by the way, you should see the work they've done on the "official" woods trails.  I've seen Lew's, Eden, and Deeper Sleeper.  They have cleared a very clear line on each.  I'll post a pic of the bottom of Lew's soon.  It made me say "Wow!"



But in the quote above did you mean line......or lines ?


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 4, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> > You think they'd do anything if they saw, oh I don't know, lopper handles sticking out of my backpack when I get on the chair?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw that when I was up on the mtn a few weekends back just poking around.  :wink:   They've cleared out Lew's Line very aggressively down to the Heaven's Gate traverse.  Fine by me.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 4, 2005)

> But in the quote above did you mean line......or lines ?



What I saw in Lew's and Deeper, was one very clear line.  Saw the same thing coming out of Eden, but never thought to check earlier in my travels for other exits.  I had looked in, earlier and thought that they'd done a lot of clearing further up.  That looked like more than a line.  

Not sure that was such a good idea.  If there ain't enough snow to cover most of that stuff, you probably shouldn't be in there anyway.  And that stuff is good for erosion deterrence and feeds many creatures during the non-snow time.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 5, 2005)

*Brings up the whole woods ecology....*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> > But in the quote above did you mean line......or lines ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



....aspect of tree skiing.  I'm not sure where I read it, maybe a thread here, about how "clearcutting" of tree lines can eventually lead to a weakened state of the trees left standing.  Some suggestion of Jay's potential for problems down the line regarding this.  Hmmm....any Paul Bunyan's out there know about this ?  Mad River Glen has marked little tree pockets and planted for regrowth after tree loss from storms due to this effect, I believe.  

Keep up the good work, Lo, and more pics, please.  The Golf Course must be getting pretty right about now.  Nothing like beautiful fall foliage while you search for your ball in the woods.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: Brings up the whole woods ecology....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> Lostone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Definitely something to that.  It's not the initial "clearcutting" that's the problem (from what I've read - I'm no forestry major), it's the subsequent maintenance of those lines.  If you cut all of the younger trees to create a line, leaving only mature ones, you will have a problem 20-30 years on when those already mature trees begin to die out and there is nothing to replace them.  This is why places like Paradise and Lower Glade at MRG and Paradise Woods at SB (skier's left) are MUCH more open than they used to be or should be.  Thankfully, Jay Appleton and like minded individuals are bringing some science and sanity to the process by creating regen zones, at least at MRG.  I'd love to see the same for parts of SB that need work (Paradise Woods and Lower Moonshine come immediately to mind, and Sleeper and Lower Domino used to be more gladed - let's not talk about Murphy's Tree).  

But I digress...  The key thing for sound forestry mgmt when cutting lines is to leave younger trees intact near older ones, so that there is something to replace the older ones when they die.  It also helps to have some even younger trees surrounding those replacements as a buffer or barrier to the harmful effects of skier edges slicing the vegetation in the winter.  I'm fine with what SB has done in this instance b/c it will hopefully draw more traffic to the clearly marked glades.  OTOH, I hope they have a plan to ensure that these glades remain healthy well into the future.


----------



## daevious (Oct 5, 2005)

Soon...


----------



## smootharc (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: Brings up the whole woods ecology....*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Definitely something to that.  It's not the initial "clearcutting" that's the problem (from what I've read - I'm no forestry major), it's the subsequent maintenance of those lines.  If you cut all of the younger trees to create a line, leaving only mature ones, you will have a problem 20-30 years on when those already mature trees begin to die out and there is nothing to replace them.  This is why places like Paradise and Lower Glade at MRG and Paradise Woods at SB (skier's left) are MUCH more open than they used to be or should be.  Thankfully, Jay Appleton and like minded individuals are bringing some science and sanity to the process by creating regen zones, at least at MRG.  I'd love to see the same for parts of SB that need work (Paradise Woods and Lower Moonshine come immediately to mind, and Sleeper and Lower Domino used to be more gladed - let's not talk about Murphy's Tree).
> 
> But I digress...  The key thing for sound forestry mgmt when cutting lines is to leave younger trees intact near older ones, so that there is something to replace the older ones when they die.  It also helps to have some even younger trees surrounding those replacements as a buffer or barrier to the harmful effects of skier edges slicing the vegetation in the winter.  I'm fine with what SB has done in this instance b/c it will hopefully draw more traffic to the clearly marked glades.  OTOH, I hope they have a plan to ensure that these glades remain healthy well into the future.



Sounds logical....and like the areas themselves should have some kind of plan with regard to these issues.

Now about those "not so clearly" marked glades......


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: Brings up the whole woods ecology....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> Sounds logical....and like the areas themselves should have some kind of plan with regard to these issues.
> 
> Now about those "not so clearly" marked glades......


Say what?  There are no such glades at SB.  None whatsoever.  Well except for the Church, and everyone knows about that.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: Brings up the whole woods ecology....*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> - let's not talk about Murphy's Tree).
> 
> .



Come-on Tin, there are at least 3 trees in Murphy Glades.  :lol:


----------



## Lostone (Oct 5, 2005)

What I saw on Lew's didn't bother me.  It was one line and I have no worries about it recovering, with all the growth around it.  But when I looked in on Eden, I thought it looked quite clear.  Hopefully, I was just in the cleared area.

What started me worrying was Paradise woods.  Every time I see it, I can't believe how much it has been torn up.  

And as for Murphy's, I think it was the year before last that I counted the trees.  I posted the total on the RSN forum, but don't remember the count.  I think it was 37.  

People were telling me I needed to get a life.   :blink: 

Can you imagine that?   :blink:   Either them telling me, or me actually getting a life?   :lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> What started me worrying was Paradise woods.  Every time I see it, I can't believe how much it has been torn up.



Interesting you should happen to mention this!  I was just talking about glades with one of my friends at VLS and he was mentioning how older glades are not good and are more wide open because of the fact that back then the idea was to cut out the younger growth and leave only old growth...turns out that you're left with nothing once that old growth dies out and falls.  He even referred to the 'woods he'd seen at Sugarbush' :idea:  No joke.  This explains what is happening...

I also recall reading the GMNF/NFS Impact studies from 1994 or 1996 and they mentioned how there was actually an avalanche/mudslide in that vacinity which had wiped out a serious number of trees/terrain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2005)

All of this talk concerning clearing old growth as opposed to new growth is very pertinent information.  

I haven't 'pruned' in a number of years, but when I did while younger - it was always directed at the new growth / 'scrub brush'.  Mainly because it was easy to address and yielded immediate results for the following winter when I went back to ski that terrain.

Now let's look at the great ice storm of 98'. When it happened so many people were upset (myself included) saying that the glades would be ruined for a decade or more.  What happened?  The ice coated everything, but for the most part only large, old, bitter trees broke and immediately clogged the stashes that we loved and rendered them unskiable for the rest of the winter and most of the following season - in my case those lines were at Stowe.  At the same time all the 'scrub brush' survived the ice. Because these were young and pliable they were able to bounce back from the weight without snapping.  

By 2000 the woods were better than I've ever seen and this was mostly true because the 98 ice storm brought down all of the old and decrepid trees.  Things were more open and have been ever since.

In terms of forest management - balance is very important.  Clearing everything out and only leaving the 'old growth' is not a sustainable concept for long term forest health and most importantly SKIING health.

The ice storm of 98 serves up the proof


----------



## Xcreamus (Oct 5, 2005)

*So this is where everyone went!*

Quite the place you have here!  

I was getting tired of seeing the sun still out on the RSN Sugarbush forum.   :roll: 

Have no idea how I ended up at the Vermont forum...   1 forum for each state?   :-?   Yeah...   That'll work!   :roll: 

Guess I've got some reading to do here.

Anyone up there know if it is snowing yet?   8)


----------



## Treeskier (Oct 5, 2005)

*Forest management and community weekend*

Nice to see all this feed back on editing in the woods. This coming weekend is Home owners or now called community weekend. Where Sugarbush managment puts on their dog and pony show. It is also a great time to rub elbows with the owners and staff. 

I've been suggesting for years that it is time to start some regeneration zones at Sugarbush.....Paridice's ball field stands out, as does Murphy's Glades. If you agree let them know. Also there was roomor that there maybe an opertunity in the future for Sugarbush enthuisist to help trim. Ask John Egan about it. 

See you Saturday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: So this is where everyone went!*



			
				Xcreamus said:
			
		

> Quite the place you have here!
> 
> I was getting tired of seeing the sun still out on the RSN Sugarbush forum.   :roll:
> 
> ...



Welcome to the thread and to AZ!  Glad to have you here!

As for this weekend, man what a bad weather weekend for the Community Day.  Those chairlift rides on Sat are going to really suck :roll:


----------



## Greg (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: So this is where everyone went!*



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Xcreamus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Likewise. Feel free to introduce yourself *here*.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 6, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> What I saw on Lew's didn't bother me.  It was one line and I have no worries about it recovering, with all the growth around it.  But when I looked in on Eden, I thought it looked quite clear.  Hopefully, I was just in the cleared area.
> 
> What started me worrying was Paradise woods.  Every time I see it, I can't believe how much it has been torn up.
> 
> And as for Murphy's, I think it was the year before last that I counted the trees.  I posted the total on the RSN forum, but don't remember the count.  I think it was 37.


Eden has always been pretty clean, AFAIK, so if they went in there this summer, it has to be cleaner than a Philippino hooker's.....  but yet I digress..  The trees there are pretty old - SB should really be careful.  They have 10-20 years to get their act together with the relatively young birches/beaches in Lew's Line and Egan's Woods, but Eden is a different beast altogether.  

Paradise Woods is a disgrace - I'm truly shocked that they haven't put re-gen zones in place there.  Also a mess is the triangle between Ripcord and the right side spur of Paradise.  All those trees are dieing or dead already due to poor forestry mgmt and snowmaking.  Lower Moonshine, Lower Domino, Murphy's Glade and Sleeper all need help as well.  I know many of the guys up there understand the issues - they can see what MRG is doing a few miles away.  I really have a hard time understanding why they haven't taken action.  JJ Tolland - if you're still reading this thread, we'd love to hear from the resort what their action plan is for addressing these very real concerns.  Mr. MRG chimes in every so often to clarify MRG-related issues, why not Mr. SB?

Same goes for you Stowe denizens.  From what I could tell, much of Angel Food is primed to thin out once those old trees die off within 15 years or so.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 6, 2005)

*And also curious about Jay Peak's status re: these issues.*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> I know many of the guys up there understand the issues - they can see what MRG is doing a few miles away.  I really have a hard time understanding why they haven't taken action.  JJ Tolland - if you're still reading this thread, we'd love to hear from the resort what their action plan is for addressing these very real concerns.  Mr. MRG chimes in every so often to clarify MRG-related issues, why not Mr. SB?
> 
> Same goes for you Stowe denizens.  From what I could tell, much of Angel Food is primed to thin out once those old trees die off within 15 years or so.



Sounds like it's time for the organization of the New England Association of Tree Skiing Puckerbrush Eating Fiends (NEATSPEF).....


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 6, 2005)

Perhaps initial meeting of the South Eastern Canada Relocated Element of Tree Skiers (SECRETS) should be called to order.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 6, 2005)

*Nice, though perhaps.....*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Perhaps initial meeting of the South Eastern Canada Relocated Element of Tree Skiers (SECRETS) should be called to order.



....it could be Deranged & Insane Researching Tree Yahoos....+ South Easters....etc., also known as.....

DIRTY SECRETS


----------



## daevious (Oct 7, 2005)




----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2005)

daevious said:
			
		

>



 

YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!!  :x

What a great pic.


----------



## djspookman (Oct 7, 2005)

That looks yummy!

I went for a short run up to the base of the Castlerock trail last night, that was a bad move on my part.. too much temptation for me!!  I can't wait to ski it again!

dave


----------



## Lostone (Oct 7, 2005)

Here is the pic that I was talking about of the bottom of Lew's line:






This was barely noticeable earlier in the season.    



.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Here is the pic that I was talking about of the bottom of Lew's line:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mmmm...looks good to me.  Not too wide.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 9, 2005)

*Community Saturday?*

My condo meeting went much longer than normal.

Anyone get any new info from it?

Any opinions, good or bad?


----------



## castlerock (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: Community Saturday?*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> My condo meeting went much longer than normal.
> 
> Anyone get any new info from it?
> 
> Any opinions, good or bad?



It wasn't bad. DLew is is a good host. Egan is a full time employee. They are working to make it a 4 season resort. They want to host weddings at the mountain (yes I'm serious)....All of the Clay Brook info was old news. 

More significant to interests here, I asked a question about "Any new on mountain trail improvements along the lines of the tree skiing added last year at North" The answer was I believe a "no, nothing significant" I then followed up with "what about a Mad River type of woods skiing enhancement". The answer was that the forest service controls any activity on the mountain, and it is an involved process to do anything. But.....They are trying to enhace the forest service relation ship and would hope to do something like that in the future.

One side note, as it has been discussed previously, Several times last year, the area was forced to curtail snowmaking due to energy restrictions by the energy company. I learned at another meeting,  VT is one of the few states that doesn't have an open market for electricity. There is work going in Montpelier to try to allow the ski areas (in general) to buy energy outside the monopoly. This would allow the area to make snow when it is coldest (and the overall energy demands are high) but the snowmaking efficiency is at its peak


----------



## smootharc (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: Community Saturday?*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> One side note, as it has been discussed previously, Several times last year, the area was forced to curtail snowmaking due to energy restrictions by the energy company. I learned at another meeting,  VT is one of the few states that doesn't have an open market for electricity. There is work going in Montpelier to try to allow the ski areas (in general) to buy energy outside the monopoly. This would allow the area to make snow when it is coldest (and the overall energy demands are high) but the snowmaking efficiency is at its peak



Sounds like the suggested solution would benefit both skiers and the environment, but not so the monopoly.  It'll be interesting to see who prevails in Montpelier.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 11, 2005)

To know how that would play out it would be good to hear a comparison of the rates for Vermont, NH, Mass and NY.  Is this monopoly of benefit to normal consumers (Which I've heard when I've heard discussions of energy costs.) 

I've heard rates were high in Vt, but that they were very high in NH.  I didn't find them bad in Mass, but I heated with gas.

Anyone?


----------



## castlerock (Oct 12, 2005)

From the mountain's standpoint it isn't a consumer issue. Consumers pay a fixed rate, not dependent on demand. Business' pay a variable rate, and a times are told the rate will multiply (x3, x10?) (and I did hear it would be retroactive as a penalty but am not sure)in times of high demand. That is how the electric co. regulates demand. That is why the ski indudstry would like to buy from outside the grid.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 12, 2005)

Though I am unfamiliar with the particulars of the VT power industry and regulatory climate, it stands to reason that a little dose of competition (i.e. enabling customers to buy from outside the grid) would scare the living daylights out of the current monopolist.  Monopolies breed inefficiency, high cost and unresponsiveness everywhere they exist.  There are no exceptions.  Some monopolists are better than other.  None are as efficient or responsive as a competitive market, preferably owned by private interests.  But that's a whole other discussion.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 12, 2005)

*My wife keeps telling me my "husband monopoly" role....*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Monopolies breed inefficiency, high cost and unresponsiveness everywhere they exist.  There are no exceptions.



....can be severed at any time, with her shopping for an "outside the grid, newer model, highly efficient" husband the next time this monopolist forgets to take out the trash.  

Ouch !  Serves me right....my prenup lawyer was court appointed.....

 :lol:


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 12, 2005)

Much of Vermont's power comes from hydro, in particular by way of a long term contract with Hydro Quebec. They have been trying to get out of the deal for many years since at the time of the contract it looked great but now things are diferent.

Recently, HQ tried to acquire a hydro plant near Bellows Falls, Vt, when I was a kid we called it "Fellows Balls"  :lol: , I believe, not totally sure, the locals turned them away.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 13, 2005)

*Sugarbush crowding "issue"*

The new thread on discount Sugarbush tickets has some comments regarding the crowding, notorious wind hold, etc.  

Curious about how locals who ski the bush regularly feel it compares to the "competition" (say, Jay, Stowe, Smuggs, Okemo, etc. ) in terms of crowding issues.  It seems Sugarbush has a bit of a negative rep along these lines, but is it really so different from these other guys ? In terms of actual skier days, I thought it was on the lower end of the scale, which, coupled with fairly modern and efficient lifts and a large expanse of terrain....well, should translate to a fairly good skier experience in terms of crowding at lifts and on the slopes.   

Based on the direct experiences of those who've had longer term observations than me, I'd be interested to know how one might be savvy in their approach to skiing the Bush (and/or the Glen, if you want to throw anything in).  "Best" times ?  Worst ? I realize some obvious things are probably true in most places....non-holiday mid weeks being pretty uncrowded.  Anyways, I know bits and pieces of this discussion are interspersed here and there in numerous threads with regards to other areas, including SB, but I thought I'd throw this out there for a more specific discussion.


----------



## skibum1321 (Oct 13, 2005)

Sugarbush is awesome midweek, non-holiday and really uncrowded obviously. On the weekends I find that the crowds can be avoided. If you're at South, stay away from the base area. North Lynx is pretty uncrowded and makes for some good morning runs while Castlerock and Heaven's Gate may have lines (Heaven's Gate lines are always pretty short though making that another good option). Castlerock tends to clear out after lunch, making that the best time to go there. As for North, the lines usually don't get out of control and are always somewhat manageable.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 13, 2005)

I don't ski North as much, so I can't speak for that with a whole lot of authority.  However, my general rule there is to avoid the Summit Quad as much as possible.  It is usually the most crowded lift and only gives you access to Upper FIS, Black Diamond, and the top of Panorama.  Nice runs and all, but not worth waiting the extra time for.  I generally stay on the North Ridge HSQ with the occasionaly jaunt down to the GMX and even Inverness - Semi-Tough and Brambles are two of the best runs on the hill (at least Brambles WAS before the GMVS destroyed it) while Inverness itself is a fantastic high speed cruiser.  

As for South, the key is definitely to get away from Super Bravo and Gate House as quickly as possible, especially between 10AM and noon.  It's just packed in that time period.  Between 10:30 and noon, Heaven's Gate gets similarly slammed.  Same for Castlerock on a powder day, though it's usually emptier if it hasn't snowed in a while.  Valley House and North Lynx are almost always ski on, with the VH a little less so.  In the afternoons, you can pretty much go anywhere except for SB and GH in the 1:30 - 2:30 time frame when people are coming out from lunch.  Still, the beauty of the SB lift system is that is naturally speads out the crowds and even allows for a bit of liftline arbitrage b/w North and South if South gets too ridiculously crowded.  I've engaged in it several times.  Of course you can always duck into Slide Brook for a 30-45 minute lap while the crowds sort themselves out as well.  

Just keep you eyes and ears open and keep trying new lifts - you are bound to find one that isn't crowded.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 13, 2005)

I have spent many days at both Sugarbush and Stowe and have concluded that a day at Sugarbush will give you a lot more time on the mountain and less time in line than Stowe.  Stowe lines gets backed up on the Mansfield Quad and Gondola – and their lifts suffer from the same "wind hold” challenge.  The good news is on a busy day the crowd gets well dispersed on the mountain.

Midweek both Stowe and Sugarbush are typically uncrowded.

I have spent weekends at Sugarbush and there are sometimes lines at the Lincoln Peak Super Bravo and Gate House quads.  The condos, ski programs, lessons, etc are based at Lincoln Peak / SB South.   A line and wait at Sugarbush on a busy day is 10 minutes, which IMHO is nothing, compared to the traffic jams at some of the lifts at Okemo, Kmart and others.

Best bet if you ski on weekends is to hit Mt Ellen for the first chair on a Sunday morning – you’ll be in for a treat !


----------



## castlerock (Oct 13, 2005)

Are you kidding about lines at Sugarbush? Come on, just as difficulty is relative at ski areas lineas are to. A long line at Sugarbush is a short line most other places. Sure Bravo gets up to a 6 minute wait some mornings at 10 and Heaven's Gate the same a half hour later. Mon dieu, they'd kill for short lines like that at Krock, Smuggs, SomedayBigger etc.

I skied every weekend, except Presidents this past season. I never waited longer than 10 mins. (equip breakdown created lines excepted

One interesting note from homeowners weekend, I heard. There is a formula in the ski industry for "comfortable carrying capacity" It factors in skiable acerage, uphill capacity, and physical plant (baselodge sq ft etc). I forget the exact numbers, but the limiting factor at the bush is baselodge sq. footage. They could almost double the number of skiers before the lifts would hit the "uncomfortable" stage.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 13, 2005)

The number of skier days at the Bush is way down from the numbers in it's heyday and considerably less than SR and Mt Snow. Part of the reason ASC chose to sell the Bush.

On the weekends I too start at North, take the Summit Quad for that incredible view, take a few runs then head over to South via the Slidebrook Express.


----------



## skibum1321 (Oct 14, 2005)

I tend to ski either the whole day at South or the whole day at North. I don't like the hassle and wasted time of Slidebrook or the Shuttle. The exception to that is when I ski Slidebrook from North and take the shuttle back to South. My issue with Slidebrook has always been that I don't want to ride a lift that doesn't give me any elevation gain.


----------



## AHM (Oct 17, 2005)

*Skipping the brook........*

Brook chair rocks.  It allows the whole area to be easily skied.  Grab some morning runs at North, hit up some slidebrook or grab the lift over, check out the elevator while riding.  Jump directy to the rock at noon.  Then ski lincoln, finish with some other slidebrooks, chair home if you need depending on where the first shuttle is going.  Slidebrook revoltionized SB skiing.  Also created the nicer exits out of Slidebrook and better maintained exits.AHM


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 17, 2005)

Slidebrook is a very unique lift and a blast to ride. Just the scenery alone you get during the fast 2.5 mile ride is worth it. I also love the steep screaming descent down to the North(mt Ellen) landing zone.


----------



## kcyanks1 (Oct 17, 2005)

I rarely have a problem with crowds at Sugarbush.  The Super Bravo and Gatehouse chairs at the base might build a line particularly AM and lunch time, but the lines move quick for the high speed lifts.  At least on weekends (when I'm normally there), the Valley House is running and is line free.  Heaven's Gate generally has a limited wait.  Castlerock is the only lift that waiting really is a concern, and like MRG's lifts, it's due to the low capacity, and the terrain is worth the wait.  I would not hesitate to go there on a weekend.


----------



## ozskier (Oct 17, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> The number of skier days at the Bush is way down from the numbers in it's heyday and considerably less than SR and Mt Snow. Part of the reason ASC chose to sell the Bush.
> 
> On the weekends I too start at North, take the Summit Quad for that incredible view, take a few runs then head over to South via the Slidebrook Express.



Fighting tooth and nail for on mountain lodging wasn't helping either.  Resorts make more money when you stay overnight, especially in their beds.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 17, 2005)

ozskier said:
			
		

> Fighting tooth and nail for on mountain lodging wasn't helping either.



Welcome to Vermont. Act 250 is supposed to be hard. 

The Bush(ASC) fought, they won, then they gave up. The Bush(Summit) fought, they won, then they gave up. Hopefully the third time is the charm.

The biggest money maker(%) for the Bush and most resorts with base lodging is the Sewage and Water Depts. There is alot of money there and that ain't just a bunch of crap.  :lol:


----------



## Treeskier (Oct 17, 2005)

*Snow in them there hills*

Just got this from an MT employee:

And yes, the important stuff… we did get a dusting on the summit last night.  I saw flurries mixed with rain at my house on the access Rd early this morning, but lift ops reported about an inch on top.  Mount Washington got 18 inches.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 17, 2005)

Yes, it was sleeting/trying to snow yesterday here in the Upper Valley.  

As much as Castlerock and Heaven's Gate is cool, I still have a real love for Ellen.  The views and 'big mountain ski experience' make it the best IMHO.  No crowds either...what's wrong with that?  Love Lower FIS and the variety of the whole mountain.  Wish the Inverness was opened to the public more often--Brambles is a classic!  :beer:  Or at least once was a classic :roll:


----------



## djspookman (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Snow in them there hills*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Just got this from an MT employee:
> 
> And yes, the important stuff… we did get a dusting on the summit last night.  I saw flurries mixed with rain at my house on the access Rd early this morning, but lift ops reported about an inch on top.  Mount Washington got 18 inches.



damn.. and i missed it!  I'm on the upper end of German Flats and we didn't see anything last night!  40 wsa as cold as it got.. finally had to turn the heat on!  I wish I could have seen the top of the mountain this morning, but all those clouds were blocking the view.

dave


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 18, 2005)

Does anyone know whether the construction work on Clay Brook and in the base area in general is performed on Sundays?  Or do they take that day off?  IIRC, the base area was pretty deserted during Sundays last off-season, but I haven't been up there much to observe this year.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 19, 2005)

They have been taking Sundays off.

Mostly the only people in there on Sundays are the (very many) people looking to see what is going on.  :wink:


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 19, 2005)

Very well then.  Thanks for the 411.  I'll be coming up at some point just to "see what's going on".


----------



## Treeskier (Oct 19, 2005)

*Looking for ski house members....Interested? Know anyone?*

Sugarbush Ski House 
Ski addicted, fun-loving group. Hot tub, large living/dining room, 5 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, awesome views. First plowed out, just minutes to Sugarbush's MT Ellen & Lincoln Peak, and Mad River. $1200.00 for Nov.15-May 1. Call Gregg or Deb 508-877-7700.


----------



## daevious (Oct 21, 2005)

It has stopped raining. Frost last night, too.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 21, 2005)

And snow on Summit, Thursday.    


Getting closer!   :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Oct 22, 2005)

*For those who have an interest...*

We pretty much lost peak foliage, this year.  It came during two weeks of almost constant rain.

Still, I got out once or twice.  I've now sorted almost half of my pix.  I've posted a few of them on my MSN site.  You can see how it starts with mostly greenand proceeds to... a point which is still on my drive, waiting to be sorted and some posted.
Foliage 2005. 

I've also redone my Claybrook pix album.  The pix are now together in chronological order.

Claybrook Project Progress 




.


----------



## smootharc (Oct 22, 2005)

*Snowfall totals, statistical "massaging", and the truth....anyone ?*

I notice Stowe's website claims "Annual Snowfall 333 inches".  While the 'bush claims annual snowfall totals of 262".  I realize you can statistically "nudge" true snowfall facts in just about any direction.....but I was under the impression (recall somewhere in the recesses of the much abused gray matter) that the 'Bush/Glen received about equal to Stowe/Smuggs, if not historically a touch more of the white frosting.  Something to do with the barren plain west of the 'bush, and the storms bumping into the ridge from Lincoln to Stark and dropping that "little extra" due to those conditions or somesuch.   Just didn't think Stowe outpaced the valley quite so dramatically.  Is Stowe's PR department working overtime, or measuring inches in a different way ?  Hmmm...suddenly I got curious.  

Am I skiing frozen crud with this thinking ?  Anyone ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2005)

*Re: Snowfall totals, statistical "massaging", and the truth....anyone ?*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> I notice Stowe's website claims "Annual Snowfall 333 inches".



Yeah, right.  That just allows them to justify the high rates :roll:



> While the 'bush claims annual snowfall totals of 262".



I think this is brutally honest.



> I realize you can statistically "nudge" true snowfall facts in just about any direction.....but I was under the impression (recall somewhere in the recesses of the much abused gray matter) that the 'Bush/Glen received about equal to Stowe/Smuggs, if not historically a touch more of the white frosting.  Something to do with the barren plain west of the 'bush, and the storms bumping into the ridge from Lincoln to Stark and dropping that "little extra" due to those conditions or somesuch.   Just didn't think Stowe outpaced the valley quite so dramatically.



Yeah, the 'bush gets a lot.  What does MRG say?  



> Is Stowe's PR department working overtime, or measuring inches in a different way ?  Hmmm...suddenly I got curious.



I also recall seeing Stowe boasting amounts in the 2-- range.  But think about who in the NE over the past ten years or so boasts a 3-- or even 4-- snow season and has been siphoning skiers and riders away from other places with great glades, more snow, and less prices?  Any guesses?  So Stowe either

(a) HAS all of the sudden gotten more snow than normal, or

(b) Are trying to compete with that Peak that gets a lot of snow.  

:roll:


----------



## Treeskier (Oct 23, 2005)

*2 inches on Rte 17*

Check out Mad River Glen's web cam. Snow in the valley!!!


----------



## Lostone (Oct 23, 2005)

*Snow in the valley??*

I wouldn't believe it!








I don't see no stupid snow!

 :beer: 


.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 23, 2005)

*A few more from this morning*

I have more, but they're not out of Mr Camera, yet.

Start at # 1043


----------



## djspookman (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: A few more from this morning*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I have more, but they're not out of Mr Camera, yet.
> 
> Start at # 1043



nice snow pics!

I came home late sunday night after being in PA for the  past 4 days and was quite surprised to find 2-3" in the yard!!  gotta love it!

dave


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: Snow in the valley??*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I wouldn't believe it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like you shot it from a Center Village Unit?


----------



## noski (Oct 25, 2005)

*If you want to watch snow*

If you want to see the snow, when it changes from rain, go to the Valley's website and click on the live webcam link. I think only 20 can view at once, so if you get a blank screen, wait a few seconds and refresh.


----------



## daevious (Oct 25, 2005)

Wow, that's cool.

Hey, I just saw my wife drive by.


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: If you want to watch snow*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> If you want to see the snow, when it changes from rain, go to the Valley's website and click on the live webcam link. I think only 20 can view at once, so if you get a blank screen, wait a few seconds and refresh.


Cool! 9:20 AM - still rain...


----------



## Lostone (Oct 25, 2005)

It is snowing on the mountain right now.    

It's still mostly rain, but there is a lot of snow mixed in.  And at times it is all snow.    

If this happens...  I'm not dumb enough to hike up with my skis, am I?   :-?      :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Oct 25, 2005)

And I doubt you could see the snow on the valley cam...  just the effects of it, as it builds up.  

We need more resolution.  And then a way to zoom it.  And to change direction.   And...      :wink:   :lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2005)

All rain thus far in the WRV in Royalton...and that river is getting higher as we speak :x


----------



## djspookman (Oct 25, 2005)

If there's snow on the upper end (by the Common Man) of German Flats road tonight, I'll post them here!

dave


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> If this happens...  I'm not dumb enough to hike up with my skis, am I?   :-?      :wink:


I hope you are. Please take some pics!


----------



## djspookman (Oct 25, 2005)

I just got a call from the wife who's at home now, and its snowing up on German Flats right now!!!!

yahoo!

dave


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Oct 25, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> I just got a call from the wife who's at home now, and its snowing up on German Flats right now!!!!
> 
> yahoo!
> 
> dave



Dave...you get married?


----------



## djspookman (Oct 25, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Dave...you get married?



yup!

2 months ago (and so far so good!)

dave


----------



## noski (Oct 25, 2005)

It's hard to see yet on the Valley Cam, but the rain is changing over just enough to see that it is soon to be snow at the MRV floor.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 25, 2005)

Not too hard to see here!     








.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 25, 2005)

*Today's snowstorm...  so far.*

Bear with me as I try to figure this site out, but if you go here: Today's Snowstorm you'll be able to see the set in the order in which they were taken...  :-?  

There is ~ a half hour difference between the 1st two and the 2nd two.   8) 



.


----------



## djspookman (Oct 25, 2005)

here's some pics from 7ish when I was out shoveling from my place on German Flats:

my wifes car: 






our dog on the porch







oh, and its has stopped snowing as of 11.


dave


----------



## djspookman (Oct 26, 2005)

I left the house at 6:30 this morning and there was an additional 2-3" on top of what we got last night, and it was coming down pretty good when I left!

dave


----------



## daevious (Oct 26, 2005)

Here's what we had this morning:



Just over a foot of snow at about 1500' elevation.


----------



## Marc (Oct 26, 2005)

Cute pup, Dave.  My parents have one that looks literally, exactly like it, right down to the slightly curled tail, the dudley nose, the dark ears and white above the shoulders.  Weighs about 65 lbs.

8 years old and still loves the snow.


How old is yours?


----------



## madskier6 (Oct 26, 2005)

*SB Website*

Well, finally the folks at Sugarbush updated the website (somewhat) after the storm.  They're claiming they got 22 inches from this storm.  See below.

http://www.sugarbush.com/winter/onmountain/snowreport.htm

You still get the summer site as the default when you go to www.sugarbush.com so they still have some work to do.  Also, the mountain cam is still disabled from the offseason.  

In their defense, they are working on completely revamping the site so it will look completely different.  Maybe that's taking too much of their time.

In any event, they still are behind the eight ball as far as I'm concerned with fresh content on their website.  That's an area they could definitely imporve on.


----------



## djspookman (Oct 26, 2005)

Marc said:
			
		

> Cute pup, Dave.  My parents have one that looks literally, exactly like it, right down to the slightly curled tail, the dudley nose, the dark ears and white above the shoulders.  Weighs about 65 lbs.
> 
> 8 years old and still loves the snow.
> 
> ...



thanks!  She's a little over a year and a half old, and around 68 pounds.  she was stark white when we got her, and her color has only really started to come in within the last 4 months or so.  She didn't want to come in last night at all!  she loves the snow!

dave


----------



## noski (Oct 26, 2005)

Well, just got word my power will be off until Thursday sometime. Prickly Mountain and some parts of East Warren looking at Friday. Guess I will stop at the Library for a book and the hardware store for more radio batteries.... :-?


----------



## djspookman (Oct 26, 2005)

wow.  we had a few flickers last night and this morning, but never lost power for more than a minute, even with the 3 transformers blowing up last night!  lots of heavy snow-laden trees are coming down on the lines though!

dave


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2005)

Power is on in the Upper Valley.  Been out in spots of the NEK since 8pm last night.  

South Royalton (CVPS) out since 2am.


----------



## Lostone (Oct 26, 2005)

On the mountain, we had an on and off early evening.  Then things seemed to be on for most of the night.  Then, this morning we lost it for about 3 hours, just after I had turned up the heat for the day.    

But walking around, I could see why they were having so many problems.  With that much foliage on the trees, they got really beat down by that heavy snow.

We lost a lot of trees.    

Hope everyone that is still without it gets back up soon.  A little cool to be without power, up here.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 1, 2005)

Snow is almost gone, to mid mountain.

Flurries tonight.

I was hiking in a t-shirt and shorts, today.

 :roll:


----------



## Strat (Nov 2, 2005)

Just a note, Sugarbush.com has officially moved to winter mode...


----------



## skibum1321 (Nov 2, 2005)

The long awaited new website still isn't up though


----------



## smootharc (Nov 2, 2005)

*Had to do a quick drive through of the valley last friday (the 28th)....*

....and posted an album with a few pics in the gallery.  The (GMVS, I think) kids were skiing at North, and while taking a few research shots of MRG, lo and behold I heard some "whoops" and hollers, and there were three folks skiing (two boarder's and one skier) down liftline. Watched them pick their way down, including airing numerous small drops.  Nice !


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 2, 2005)

noski said:
			
		

> Well, just got word my power will be off until Thursday sometime. Prickly Mountain and some parts of East Warren looking at Friday. Guess I will stop at the Library for a book and the hardware store for more radio batteries.... :-?



That's a bummer. Didn't I read recently in the Valley Distorter or somewhere else where several longtime valley inovators/business people live in the Prickly Mountain area including the guys who started Yestamorrow(sic) and Small Dog. Maybe a small wind turbine would be cool to get thru those power outages.  8)


----------



## noski (Nov 2, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> That's a bummer. Didn't I read recently in the Valley Distorter or somewhere else where several longtime valley inovators/business people live in the Prickly Mountain area including the guys who started Yestamorrow(sic) and Small Dog. Maybe a small wind turbine would be cool to get thru those power outages.  8)


Yes, true. Founders/Principles of Small Dog, Northern (wind)Power, Yestermorrow are all there. They actually got their power back on Thursday before I did on the opposite ridge. All is well, snow tires are on, and propane tank is filled(OUCH!)


----------



## ThinkSnow (Nov 3, 2005)

*Small Wind Turbine?*

Considering how often the lifts get put on "wind-hold" a big wind turbine could probably power the entire valley!


----------



## bullwheel12 (Nov 3, 2005)

Quick question to those of you that tune those boards regularly, (or rarely) What do you think of a pick-up service at SB south...like someone would come to your place, pick up your skis to be tuned, and then they would be guarenteed to be done for the next morning?  Any thoughts?


----------



## noski (Nov 3, 2005)

bullwheel12 said:
			
		

> Quick question to those of you that tune those boards regularly, (or rarely) What do you think of a pick-up service at SB south...like someone would come to your place, pick up your skis to be tuned, and then they would be guarenteed to be done for the next morning?  Any thoughts?


Interesting question. I wonder about things like, would people trust their skis/boards would be returned?? I am just a dumb old noski, but that was my first thought....


----------



## noski (Nov 3, 2005)

http://forums.alpinezone.com/viewtopic.php?t=6205 And did you see I immortalized alot of you in my rendition of the AZ logo? That was fun. Now I think of others I missed and could have incorporated, Hammer, spook, madskier. Lostone you are the one with a question mark over your head. That didn't come out very clearly.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 3, 2005)

*Noski*

My guess is I got the question mark because I am lost?    

I had a few others that I was wondering about but after noticing the jay, the only one left was that the skihauling medic...  doesn't have a sled?

Other than that...  good job!


----------



## Lostone (Nov 3, 2005)

> What do you think of a pick-up service at SB south..



For those of us who live at South, I would guess most of us already have a system.  I live steps from Mountainside, so you can guess where I get my work done.

That said, the Vallet parking proves that almost any kind of service will be used by somebody.  

It would seem to me that a better market would be for those that are staying for the weekend/week, who got in a day of the firm and fast conditions that sometimes happen, and then decide that edges seem like a good idea.

Seems to me that there already is such a service tho.  Isn't there a van that picks up and delivers?  I seem to think I remember seeing it it the parking lot?  :-?


----------



## bullwheel12 (Nov 3, 2005)

well i guess that for the tune shop at lincoln peak, THe Bullwheel, this is a new thing that may happen, a pickup service in the area of the access rd, inferno, and german flats.  Yah, it would be more popular for the weekenders rather than the local folk.


----------



## noski (Nov 3, 2005)

*Re: Noski*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> My guess is I got the question mark because I am lost?
> 
> I had a few others that I was wondering about but after noticing the jay, the only one left was that the skihauling medic...  doesn't have a sled?
> 
> Other than that...  good job!


Other than that or you are wondering what the heck SRO is peeping at.... Sledhauler has a sled, a taboggen- it didn't come out too well in the scan.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 3, 2005)

From my positioning, I would be wonder why he was using binoculars to look at me, when I'm just about right next to him...   or is this one of those "objects seen in binoculars are further away than they appear" kinda things?   :-? 


 :lol: 


.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 4, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> ski_resort_observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Another one bites the dust  :lol: Anyways congrats on your nuptials.


----------



## mtnlady (Nov 4, 2005)

*Quick report*

This is just a very brief up-date on things this group has touched on:
* the new/improved Sugarbush web-site is scheduled for launch next Thurs.
* Clay Brook steel will start being raised next week, NW corner of the building    
   first, and will go vertical - then horizontal - one "floor" higher than the old  
   clock tower
*  ready to start making snow at ME - awaiting favorable temps both for 
   production and for holding on to it...

We've got training weekend 11/12 & 13 for both veteran and rookie ambassadors.  Anyone out there interested in joining us?


----------



## djspookman (Nov 4, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> djspookman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



haha..   Thanks!


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 4, 2005)

*Blizzard of OZ, Ski and Sports club event*

Was at the Blizzard of OZ event last night...a party and tradeshow. Most of our neighbores where there but no Sugarbush presence. Seemed a shame with so many ripe prospects. 

Did learn that Okemo was not going to open as planned this weekend due to warmth. Also that Kmart made a comand desision to open last Saturday at 9 AM Friday after finding out that Wildcat was beating them to the punch. (but they have decided to curtail the early early openings). Lots of people there did ski last weekend and all said they had a great time. Did hear that Wildcat's lift broke on Sunday morning and they had to give out vouchers and lots of people then walked.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Nov 4, 2005)

*Re: Quick report*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> This is just a very brief up-date on things this group has touched on:
> * the new/improved Sugarbush web-site is scheduled for launch next Thurs.
> * Clay Brook steel will start being raised next week, NW corner of the building
> first, and will go vertical - then horizontal - one "floor" higher than the old
> ...



What are the plans for the base area this season at South?  Where are all of the displaced cars going to go?


----------



## djspookman (Nov 4, 2005)

Oh, and another update.  There was a small convoy of Griswold concrete trucks and a pumper truck heading up German Flats rd this morning towards the Lincoln Peak area.  I'm assuming its for more concrete work on the mountain, but I could be wrong.  

dave


----------



## djspookman (Nov 4, 2005)

*Re: Quick report*



			
				ThinkSnow said:
			
		

> What are the plans for the base area this season at South?  Where are all of the displaced cars going to go?



I'd be interested to hear this too..  All I know is I see a large hole in the ground and a lot of piles of dirt, and not much parking so far!

dave


----------



## Lostone (Nov 4, 2005)

*The word I got...*

First fallback is the area behind the snowmaking building.  It has been greatly expanded.

Second fallback is 22 acre site.  It has also been greatly expanded as well as graded.  Probably going to end up with more parking than before, if a little further away.

There are supposed to be more carts  _on weekends_.

Remember.  I deal only in rumors.   :wink:


----------



## mtnlady (Nov 4, 2005)

*Parking, LP base, quick answers*

LP Base area will be better than past seasons, with all those services that
people had to cross the base area to visit now all clustered together where the Family Center will eventually be -- children's and adult ski school, rentals, tickets, even the Sunkid (conveyer belt-type surface lift) adjacent to the 
children's ski school building.  

What is lost in parking lot capacity on the uphill end due to displacement by our new Clay Brook residences and the interim village described above, is more that regained with new parking on the lower end - below the snow making building.  We will have up to 5 jitneys cycling the lot at Lincoln on weekends and holidays to make sure there is frequent transpo uphill -- and down hill at the end of day.  The 22-acres lot on Inferno Road has been enlarged, and resurfaced, with a wider, safer entrance and lots of lighting -- for Sugarbush staff to park.  We don't anticipate needing to use it for guest parking - but it would be nice to find ourselves needing it on those beautious March and April Saturdays.  The reality of mid-week non-crowds being what they are, we anticipate not needing jitneys on regular weekdays -- often two tiers in the upper lot are all that are needed, and wlking that distance is a snap for us athletes!  There again, we'd like to start needing jitneys mid-week.

Gate House Lodge will have more seating since the Sugarbear Den on the lobby level will be fixed as overflow dining space with tables/chairs and shelves for bag storage.

Access to the square will be via stairs set up almost identically to the former stairs, only farther to the North, between the construction zone and the interim village.  The Guest Service Kiosk will be moved next week to sit just south of the top of those new stairs to the square, along with the ski/board secure lockup.  

Did I hit all the questions?  We are feeling quite revved ... can you tell?


----------



## madskier6 (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the update mtnlady.  It sounds great and I am definitely getting psyched for the new season and the increased capabilities at the LP base!!   

Next year should be even better when they complete the initial phase of the construction.  Now all we need is some cold weather so you guys can start blowing snow at North.  I will be up for the week of Thanksgiving and am hoping for good conditions.  

In any event I'll be there no matter what the conditions and I think you guys are doing a great job!  :beer: 

It's been a long summer and fall and i'm looking forward to the snow flying. :lol:


----------



## Strat (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the updates mtnlady, glad to see things are rolling smoothly... it's so easy to get skeptical... keep up the good work, I hope to be there opening day...


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 5, 2005)

*Re: Quick report*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> We've got training weekend 11/12 & 13 for both veteran and rookie ambassadors.  Anyone out there interested in joining us?



mtnlady - 

What does this training involve and where will it be located?  LP or ME?  Is it mostly just stuff in a "classroom" type environment at the base?  Also, when do the patrollers start heading up the hill to put all the boo in place/fix the lift pads for the upcoming season?


----------



## mtnlady (Nov 5, 2005)

*Ambassador Training*

Sat. 11/12, 8 to 4:30 in ME base lodge - presenters will be all three of our partners in Summit Ventures, Hardy Merill, ACL safety training, famous pot luck lunch, news from Adventre Learning Center, HR's intro to this season (required to get staff pass) -- all info/tools needed to answer guest questions intelligently and know where to direct folks -- and paperwork.  Rookies come back Sunday 11/13, to LP/Gate House Lodge, along with Mountain Guide candidates (must be experienced ambs and BD-DBD capable on terrain) from 9 to noon for some more basic info, walking tour of LP base, Q&A with MtnGdes for annecdotal teaching.  24 days needed (if under 65- fewer for over) - training weekend counts as 1 - 2 wknd days for on-the-job training in December (days 2&3) balance of 21 through season til 4-16 (Traithlon Wknd).

Not a "ski job" - guest service job instead - but pretty good amount of time on hill, most important qualification is love of the mountain, willingness to go with the company philosophy and goals, be extroverted with guests...

Season pass is benefit, no restrictions once qualified.  Previously purchased passes get reimbursed - again once qualified.  Best of all is the people in the program - wonderful, fun, social, great mix.  I'm in charge - kinda bossy but also try to be a good ally...  Anyone interested can e-mail me...


----------



## Strat (Nov 6, 2005)

Went up and browsed around with the family yesterday after a Sunset Rock hike (shorts in November, though not exactly desirable, is pretty awesome)... anyway, some really impressive progress since the last time I was there... a ton of concrete, lot of walls, some holes filled in, looks cleaner than before, all ready for steel. The warm weather, though preventing snowmaking, is extending the construction season quite nicely. 

New family area looks nice, the Sprung Instant Structure is just getting interior work started, looking good... the ground work on sleeper looks great, can only hope it will alleviate some of the issues... one thing I'm a little worried about though, the way the bottom of the village chair is graded, there's a pretty steep dropoff right at the bottom of the lift, with just a small little road-shaped flat parallel to the entrance ramp for the liftline to extend to... hard to describe if you haven't seen it, but it looks like a bit of a hazard to have right next to the lift on a bunny hill... any insight on that mtnlady?


----------



## daevious (Nov 8, 2005)

The guns are on at North.

Thought you'd want to know.


----------



## Strat (Nov 8, 2005)

Figured it'd be a good night to clean out the mice... too bad they can't hold a base... it's coming... slowly, it's coming...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2005)

SWWWWWEEEETTTT!!!!  Just blowing out the mice or getting ready for the season?


----------



## Strat (Nov 8, 2005)

Definitely just the mice.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 8, 2005)

*I don't think so...*

I was looking up at the peak today.  (South)  There was more snow up there than yesterday.  That means the peak is staying cold.  

I was wondering if they would be trying to get things going over at North.  

They're still hoping for opening weekend after next.  

No matter what...  Not long now.   :beer:


----------



## Strat (Nov 8, 2005)

Not to be a pessimist but weekend after next doesn't look likely... temps in the 50's next week... yeah, it's colder up there, but 50's in the valley is still 40's up top... we can only wait and hope... 

We need a "fingers crossed" emoticon...


----------



## Lostone (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm not saying it is happening, but that is still the plan.  

As far as the forecasts go, they said it rained every day last week.  But we had a little rain on two days.

You want me to believe them when they say they know what is up next week?  Let them get tomorrow right.  Then let them do that for 3 days in a row and we can talk about a two day forecast.   :roll:    :lol: 

Is the glass half empty?   :-? 

Is the glass half full?   :-? 

There is certainly too much glass.   :wink:


----------



## djspookman (Nov 9, 2005)

This morning the guns are still going!:

From German Flats Rd by the Sugar Run Condos at 6:40am:






From halfway up Number Nine Hill rd at 6:50am:





dave


----------



## noski (Nov 9, 2005)

*Thursday night treat*

You might have something even bigger to photograph on Friday morning, Spook.  Possible 6+ of snow overnight Thursday. But yes, warming up toward 50 Sunday. Those days will be less and less, so take heart!


----------



## djspookman (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: Thursday night treat*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> You might have something even bigger to photograph on Friday morning, Spook.  Possible 6+ of snow overnight Thursday. But yes, warming up toward 50 Sunday. Those days will be less and less, so take heart!




yippee!.. in that case, I won't be taking any pics from Number Nine Hill Rd, since it probably won't be plowed that early in the morning (its a STEEP road), but I'll have some from the Mt Ellen base instead

dave


----------



## Strat (Nov 9, 2005)

Ohhh that's nice to see... new website goes up tomorrow too... it's coming!!


----------



## noski (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: Thursday night treat*



			
				djspookman said:
			
		

> noski said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Instead of #9, I would think a picture from Bragg Hill Road would be better anyway- at the top on the flats. You are looking straight onto Mt. Ellen with morning sun shining on it from there. Plus it's a schoolbus route therefore maintained well! (Fayston's own highway!)


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: Thursday night treat*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> djspookman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#9 is not a problem if you hit it right. When driving up Rt 17 about 1/4 mile before you speed up to about 60mph and your momentum carries you up that first steep section of #9.


----------



## djspookman (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: Thursday night treat*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> #9 is not a problem if you hit it right. When driving up Rt 17 about 1/4 mile before you speed up to about 60mph and your momentum carries you up that first steep section of #9.



I can see that working!  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm coming from German Flats though so to do that its a bit backwards, but then again, so isn't going up #9 when i'm headed to burlington hehe.. oh well!

dave


----------



## djspookman (Nov 9, 2005)

weather update:  its 6:40 pm, and its trying to snow here.... mixed snow/rain.  They're forecasting for an inch or so by morning. 

dave


----------



## Strat (Nov 9, 2005)

8)  :beer:  :wink:


----------



## djspookman (Nov 9, 2005)

my little bird says they're opening before the 19th.. we'll just have to wait and see I guess!

dave


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 9, 2005)

*It's a double edge sward*

Hat's off to the MT for blowing snow as soon as it's been cold enough in Nov.    I can only hope now that Mother Nature is calm enough for it to stay. 

With all of the construction I give them a pass for not running a lift last storm :blink: . 

Thanks MT Lady and other for keeping us in the news. 

MOTHER NATURE....PLEASE JUST STAY COLD AND SNOW!

Ski Yah!


----------



## Strat (Nov 10, 2005)

So, it's thursday and no new website... mtnlady, any word on this?


----------



## djspookman (Nov 10, 2005)

its snowing in the Valley!  (and at the base!)

dave


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2005)

Word has it that the mtn was all white today...any pics?


----------



## mtnlady (Nov 11, 2005)

*Updates on stuff*

New web-site supposedly had "soft launch" yesterday - perhaps only viewable on property - to test.  Announcement was made to us @ mtn that the new site will be up mid-late next week -- stay tuned.

The new Village/Family Center is being surfaced/paved.  The ramp will become stairs-landing-stairs to the square next week.  The Lincoln Peak Village Information Center - aka red yurt - is in place where the red schoolhouse for Ski/Ride was. The GS Kiosk is in place - we look like a bow sprit  facing the old beginner poma - shades of Decaprio in Titanic cuz it's probably going to be windy - no better location for being in the action though.
No one's going to need us anyway, right?!  :roll: 

Steel is vertical in a half-dozen juctures of the Clay Book frame - lots happening there.  Parking lot is being organized/graded at LP.  Sorry I've not visited Village lift to scrutinize base - or remembered to ask the question about it's loading area layout - but I will...

as soon as I get beyond this big ambassador training weekend.
Feels like diving into the pool challenged to not breath til I hit the other side!

Almost forgot - snowmaking heavily til temps warm Saturday - then probably not able until mid-next week - but will make snow whenever possible.  Educated guess is we will open upload/download - just a guess but no real surprise there ... dedicated to presenting good product to you fans!
Pretty cold here right now, and blustery.


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## Lostone (Nov 11, 2005)

*Village Chair*

Actually, I forgot to mention, but I took a stroll over by the Village chair, the other day.  It looks like some of the drop may have been emphasized on the left side, but a good part of that was already a drop, in the past.  It had just been overgrown, before.

I think they will have to do something with snow farming, as the place where it mellows out comes pretty near that Sunkid lift.  

I think beginners will be quite nervous about getting too near there, not to mention what will be roped off near there.

Snowing today.  Not a big amount, but it is good to see  everything whitish and more on the way.


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

*Re: Village Chair*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> Actually, I forgot to mention, but I took a stroll over by the Village chair, the other day.  It looks like some of the drop may have been emphasized on the left side, but a good part of that was already a drop, in the past.  It had just been overgrown, before.
> 
> I think they will have to do something with snow farming, as the place where it mellows out comes pretty near that Sunkid lift.
> 
> ...


The drop that was there in the past was continuous all the way across the slope... it was steep, but it was equal, so there was no sort of "hole" by the lift... if I remember correctly, there was a small ditch all the way at the bottom (parallel with the lift), but it seems like if they could fill that in, why not the rest too? It would take a lot of dirt, but there's a gigundous pile of it at the old Lodge site, and it doesn't look like they have much to do with it... I'm also foreseeing congestion with beginners coming down to the lift and first-timers around the sunkid area... looks like things could get a bit messy... but we'll have to wait and see...

Liking that white too, just a dusting at my house but it's sure nice to see  8)


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## djspookman (Nov 11, 2005)

The guns are going at the Base of North right now!  yahoo! 

dave


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> The guns are going at the Base of North right now!  yahoo!
> 
> dave


Well that's just silly. Forecasted temps in the high 50's for sunday... unless they're setting up for a rail jam or something, they're basically blowing money/resources...


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## djspookman (Nov 11, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> djspookman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so my bad.. there aren't a lot of guns going at the base, only 2. not sure why, but I assume to get the half pipe started or at least to get a small blanket of snow down.

dave


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

djspookman said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They did it last year too around this time, they must be setting up for one of the pre-season rail jams... still seems kinda premature, but whatever...


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## Xcreamus (Nov 11, 2005)

It's publicity snow.

They do it to show that they are making snow.   :wink:


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 11, 2005)

Xcreamus said:
			
		

> It's publicity snow.
> 
> They do it to show that they are making snow.   :wink:



Doubt it.  They are making non-publicity snow in large volumes up top.  What's the purpose?


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

It's testing for the Rome Snowboards Premature Jibulation event on the 18th: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Probably not setup yet, but testing...

Publicity snow at the base wouldn't make sense... very few people are going to be at the base of North to see it, and the webcam isn't even up... so it would be pointless.


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 11, 2005)

I see no 50's predicted for the mountain, Sunday or otherwise. The 10 day forcast for the mountain, not the valley, call for favorable temps for snowmaking. Several nights are in the 20's with some high's in the upper 30's right thru to the 19th. 

I still say they will open before the 19th if the forcast holds up. 8)


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## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> I see no 50's predicted for the mountain, Sunday or otherwise. The 10 day forcast for the mountain, not the valley, call for favorable temps for snowmaking. Several nights are in the 20's with some high's in the upper 30's right thru to the 19th.
> 
> I still say they will open before the 19th if the forcast holds up. 8)



:-?  Read Roger Hill's report...may break 60 F in Burlington, VT on Sunday.  This is NOT the mountain, but it will break at least 40F then...


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 11, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> I see no 50's predicted for the mountain, Sunday or otherwise. The 10 day forcast for the mountain, not the valley, call for favorable temps for snowmaking. Several nights are in the 20's with some high's in the upper 30's right thru to the 19th.
> 
> I still say they will open before the 19th if the forcast holds up. 8)



Well yes and no.  Looks like at least the lower half of the mountain will see 50 degrees plus on Sunday.  Forecast high for BTV is 59.  The rest of the week looks much cooler, topping out in the upper 40s in BTV early on then getting cooler throughout the week, if you believe the NWS.


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> I see no 50's predicted for the mountain, Sunday or otherwise. The 10 day forcast for the mountain, not the valley, call for favorable temps for snowmaking. Several nights are in the 20's with some high's in the upper 30's right thru to the 19th.
> 
> I still say they will open before the 19th if the forcast holds up. 8)


Where do you get these mountain forecasts?


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 11, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> ski_resort_observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, you caught me, I'm an optomist.   Sunday is just one day and maybe it won't be that warm.


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## Strat (Nov 11, 2005)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Tin Woodsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even pessimists are closet optimists.  8) 

We can only hope man...


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 14, 2005)

Spent some time up at the base area this weekend.  The footprint of Clay Brook is impressively large.  Everything looks to be in place, though they still have a fair bit of work to do to get the main parking lot in order.  Doubly so for the overflow lot behind the snowmaking bldg - it's a boulder-filled mess right now.  

Maybe mtnlady or someone can help me out on this - what is/was the purpose of clearing the hill behind the Gate House lodge?  IIRC, it was stated that since the area between the GH lodge and Clay Brook will become a pedestrian only area, they wanted to open up the area uphill from the GH lodge to allow for better skier flow back and forth.  But the hill is still too steep to allow for any real increase up there.  I just don't get it.  

Also, does anyone know what that huge concrete block was for at the point just below where the Village Run turns downhill?  Took a hike up in that direction for the first time ever and came across that beast. 

Finally - anyone know the origin of the roads that intersect Village Run right at that turn?  Top of Slide Brook?


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 14, 2005)

Tin

Here is the area your talking about,right? 
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=18&X=1670&Y=12225&W=1&qs=|warren|vt|
Hoepfully Mtnlady can help but I know she is extremely busy this time of year.

I too saw the cement block and assumed it was to prevent people from driving onto the trail from that homeowners road with the many switchbacks. The road didn't make it up that far, yet, so I assumed it was put in case it did. Just my theory.

On the road heading towards the northeast from where VR bends downhill I always thought it was just a logging road but again just my theory. I remember asking but unless you stay in a condo your probably not going to use VR.

Remember the thread we had going about the trail cut above Inverness going to MRG. In that thread Eric mentioned a guy who would know, can't remember his name but if all else fails I can get it for you. You can also email Eric over at MRG and he would pass that on to you. Good luck!


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 14, 2005)

Yeah that's the area alright.  Based on the Terraserver pic, it's hard to tell if the road continues up or not.  Probably does, though not nearly as wide as the beginning part.  

My guess was that the concrete block was the base for the summit terminal of a village lift never constructed.


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## Lostone (Nov 14, 2005)

*Some answers...  some guesses*

Answer:  The work behind Gatehouse is a start.  The next step will be to take more of it out to enable skier traffic behind the newer, bigger Gatehouse, tentatively scheduled for next year.

Guesses:  The reason for doing the tree clearing part of it was that the equipment was on site for other work.  

I believe the road to the right to be a service road to North for groomers, ect.

The block, is more than a block or a lift base.  If you look at it, there are pipes coming out of the top.  I feel one of them is an exhaust pipe.  It comes up and bends back down and ends.  Seems like an air exhaust?  

There is another very similar on the road that leads from Village Run Road to Out To Lunch, just below the bridge.

Again, other than the first part, I deal only in rumors.   :wink:


----------



## Strat (Nov 14, 2005)

*Re: Some answers...  some guesses*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I believe the road to the right to be a service road to North for groomers, ect.


Possibly connected to the road which starts skier's left of the top of Sunrise, passing under the Slide Brook lift and continuing that way? 

I think we've had this discussion before...


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## Lostone (Nov 14, 2005)

This one is way below the one from Sunshine.  It is a little below Gatehouse.

As to where that one goes, it is amazing to me that I've never wandered very far along that one.  People that have started it during ski season said that it was only a dead end.  

Anyone know about that one for sure?  On my topographic map it seems like it would have to go back to the left and up around 700' to get to the summit of North, but going straight from its beginning would head to just a little below the GMX top.  

Looking back at the TerraServer map, if you look at this view it looks like it goes just beyond Sunrise and turns back down toward the trail.


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## Treeskier (Nov 14, 2005)

*Blue Tooth to be open this winter*

Contrary to roomer, it was announced that the Blue Tooth will be open this year  :beer: 

The past storms did leave lots of new downed limbs so the MT has had to go back and re-clean their tree runs...according to Hardy.

Ski Yah


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## Strat (Nov 14, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> This one is way below the one from Sunshine.  It is a little below Gatehouse.
> 
> As to where that one goes, it is amazing to me that I've never wandered very far along that one.  People that have started it during ski season said that it was only a dead end.
> 
> ...


I know it's way below, but the Village Run one does go up and I thought there may be a possible connection... not quite sure where you're going with the whole summit of north thing, a bit confused as to what you're talking about... I'm referring to a trail cut off the top of Sunrise that passes under the Slidebrook lift and continues in an easterly direction, somewhat parallel to the upper, flat section of village run... you seem to be discussing a trail through the slide brook basin that goes directly north... are we on the same page?

By the way, I highly recommend you download the excellent program NASA Worldwind... needs a fast connection and quite a bit of computer resources, but it allows you to view the topo maps and aerial imagery over three-dimensional views of the actual terrain, much as google earth does, though with relevant data for vermont... link is http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/ 
Thought I posted about this before, but a search indicates that I haven't... excellent program, great for any skier who's interested in aerial photography and whatnot...


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 15, 2005)

What I Know:  I've gone down that road from the top of Sunrise, and as far as I could tell, it was just a dead end.  There is no road that starts at Sunrise and crosses under the SBX.  The road in question is where the Slide Brook tours cross the SBX liftline and continue on to the blazed runs.

Conjecture:  It appears as though Terraserver is playing tricks on us b/c I never saw any bend back towards Sunrise.  I think that's just the outline of the large stand of softwoods at the top of Sunrise, a stand which appears to have at one time been part of the trail.  Was Sunrise narrowed at some point due to the wind/sun exposure such a wide run would have in that location?  It would make sense if so.  Those trees to the left are clearly younger and of a different species than everything around them.

Speculation:  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the road off of Village Run continues upward and onward to somewhere even if it isn't visible on Terraserver.  Having spent a fair bit of time in the woods of SB, I am always struck by the number of abandoned and semi-abandoned jeep roads, tracks, and logging roads you come across. They make for fine skiin', that's for sure.


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## AHM (Nov 15, 2005)

Ski Report:  Skied from Summit to Glen House on Sunday Nov 13.  Rim run to elbow.  Coverage was excellent, no bare spots, briars, etc.  Snow was creamy, like early spring corn when top inch or so has softened.  Hiked LP and cruised over the LT.  Came down from ME summit at about 4:30 pm with the whole sky bathed in Alpin glow.  It was excellent.  Great way to start my season sinced I missed the early snows.  If all goes well, opening should be pretty nice.  All of rim has been blown in pretty well two.  Lower elbow not ready yet.AHM


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## walknet2 (Nov 15, 2005)

The mystery road at the top of Village Run was built 20 + years ago to accomodate well drilling equipment. A couple of wells were drilled for Mtn. Water Co. that supplies the village with domestic water, they turned out to be "dusters".


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## Strat (Nov 15, 2005)

Thanks for the info, walknet. Welcome to AlpineZone.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

*Strat*


> not quite sure where you're going with the whole summit of north thing, a bit confused as to what you're talking about



Welcome to the club.   :wink: 

I'd read your part and had answered that by sayint that the two were greatly different in elevation.  I then proceeded on my own, wondering if it would be heading to North, and found it was way below summit...  and the rest.

*walknet2*
Yes, welcome to the forum.

Are you saying that road at the top of V-R doesn't make it to North?  I'd been told that was used as a service road to there.  

*anyone*
Any other guesses as to the cement platform at the junction of V-R road and trail?


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## smootharc (Nov 15, 2005)

*Worldwind*



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> By the way, I highly recommend you download the excellent program NASA Worldwind... needs a fast connection and quite a bit of computer resources, but it allows you to view the topo maps and aerial imagery over three-dimensional views of the actual terrain, much as google earth does, though with relevant data for vermont... link is http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/
> Thought I posted about this before, but a search indicates that I haven't... excellent program, great for any skier who's interested in aerial photography and whatnot...



There are a few drawbacks to my Macintosh computer....and not being able to access this program is one.  Google earth is working on a mac version.  But if anyone gets a 3D image of anything Sugarbush or Mad River Glen, I'd be interested in seeing it.  I could probably open any of the imagery generated by the program.  Anyways, thanks.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

Well, don't look to me!   :roll: 

I have a Win98 - 450M.  :roll: 

It ain't getting close.    

And this is my fast machine.         :lol: 


.


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## walknet2 (Nov 15, 2005)

Thanks for the welcome.

The road in question (being the one at the top of VR after the traverse from GH lift)used to dead end, I do not know if at somepoint later they continued it. 

I remember at one point after ASC bought Sugarbush there were tentative plans on having a road from Lincoln Peak area to MT. Ellen for groomers & other resort equip. to move back and forth. The road was also going to have an air line for snowmaking so they could have a main air plant supplying the whole resort. I don't know how far they may have gotten with the road end of that idea and the proposed alignment, obviously the air thing never happended.


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 15, 2005)

Well it shouldn't be too tough to find out the answer.  All that's arequired is a drive to the dead end atop Upper Village Rd. and then a few minutes of hiking to see where it goes.

On a separate note, what's with that new house up there at the last switchback being built 20 feet off the ground??!!  I've never seen such a strange layout.  Must be accessed via elevators or something.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

Probably have their own helicopter.   :wink: 

Not as bad looking as the white elephant a little lower, tho.   :roll: 

I describe that one as the house for someone with way too much money, who wants a place in Vermont, but really doesn't like anything about the place.   :blink: 

Be very interesting to see who actually buys it.   :-?


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 15, 2005)

The upper house is actually quite a nice structure - just a bizarre means of access.

The white elephant?  Just plain bizarre.  That will be bought with dumb money, if at all.  Did a builder actually build that on spec?  If so, he should be shot.


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## castlerock (Nov 15, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Be very interesting to see who actually buys it.   :-?


Is that thing being built on spec? It is hideous. I thought it had to be built for someone.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

When I saw it I thought he had to have built it for someone (_ with a lack of taste _) but everything I hear is that he's just operating on a "if you build it..." kinda thing.   :roll: 

Bad news is it is clearly visible from the mountain.

More interesting, is if you travle the dirt road behind it to the end, you'll see another place by the same builder.  It looks really neat.   :blink: 



_So you put the ugly thing in the open, and hide the one that looks good? _  :-?  :roll: 


.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 15, 2005)

Is the "white elephant" the art deco style house that looks like it belongs on Miami beach, not at a ski mountain in Vermont ?


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## smootharc (Nov 15, 2005)

*Drove by a couple of weeks ago.....and it's definitely eye catching....*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> Lostone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



....anyone called the builder to ask about the price ?   Now I'm curious....

To tell you the truth....imho.....if you deleted the glass block, and changed  the color from "Mediterranean sun-reflecting hot white" to something more organic, well, it might not project the "hideous out of placeness" it does now.  The lines are different for sure, but not profoundly ugly taken as a whole (again, imho)...rather sculptural.  Looks much better from ground level and below than the predominant view from above.  Eye of the beholder thing going on there, definitely.   Nice decks and all, but, golly, it's absolutely surrounded by road, and headlights coming close by.  Just not a great building lot....

But it seems the whole mountain/resort areas of the MR valley are on the way up, perhaps getting sucked into the vaccum of price increases that are likely to occur increasingly in the valley as people go to Stratton, Okemo, Stowe, see $625k for a one-bedroom, and start looking around.  The whole shebang (MRV) is waaaaaayyyyy undervalued when you add up all the positives of the place....and factor in that any new development will, basically, be ever so tightly controlled (or at least has so far).....so none of the over the top madness of other places in VT is ever likely to occur. One hopes....


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 15, 2005)

I can't imagine that's a local builder.  That house might fit in at Stratton or some other place south of Granville Gulf, but not Sugarbush.  Someone is going to lose their shirt.

In other news, if anyone makes a habit of walking the Village Run up to the base of North Lynx (or further) please PM me backchannel.  I have a question or two.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

> ....anyone called the builder to ask about the price ? Now I'm curious....



The word I've got is $600K, and pretty firm...  from two different sources.    

What was that phrase up above...? _ Dumb money?  _

And at frist I just called it unique.  The more I saw it, the uglier it got.    :blink:     :roll: 



.


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## Treeskier (Nov 15, 2005)

*Sub- Posts*

Sub Treads

If your review skiing chat room history. You will find that RSN’s Sugarbush’s chat room thrived. It was able to convince the powers to be to re-open twice. Plus it was able to produce change (remember when after so many posts that the MT allowed the walking to Castlerock….then produced ski patrol as normal for those skiing down) Why we love Sugarbush Valley. In that vain…… 38 pages of this thread to date 11_15_05. 

Could we have sub-threads?  That are only applicable to……..say….to any thread that has 10 pages or more?

Like: Slied today Reports, Valley snow depths, MT news... Where to play this weekend!


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 15, 2005)

*Re: Drove by a couple of weeks ago.....and it's definitely eye catching....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> castlerock said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think real estate developement in the valley can be described as sendentary at best. In view of the Burlington's, Stowe's and Manchester's it is baffling. 

Case in point, a developer starts building some townhouses(Maple something), the one at the corner of Gold Course Rd and the access road, first developement on/near the mountain in 15 years. They go bankrupt, landowner has to take over. Are they completed? 

Course when I bought my little place I was thrilled that the price was very reasonable, almost cheap in comparison to other ski towns. 

I love the fact that the valley is so mellow in the summer but I have a feeling it won't last too much longer.


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## Lostone (Nov 15, 2005)

The Maples aren't completed, but some of the units are.  And some are occupied.  

Heard that someone is renting one of those until his unit at Claybrook is ready.  Supposedly a long time Stowe skier who made the mistake of trying Sugarbush for one weekend, last year.   8) 

It'll do that to you.

And SRO, when i bought my place I was astounded I could get a place so close to the mountain for that money.  Now there are a lot of people living in these condos.  Many are locals and a lot of them have nothing to do with the mountain.  It just turned out to be a very affordable place to buy.

And so pretty!         :beer:


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## walknet2 (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Sub- Posts*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Sub Treads
> 
> If your review skiing chat room history. You will find that RSN’s Sugarbush’s chat room thrived. It was able to convince the powers to be to re-open twice. Plus it was able to produce change (remember when after so many posts that the MT allowed the walking to Castlerock….then produced ski patrol as normal for those skiing down) Why we love Sugarbush Valley. In that vain…… 38 pages of this thread to date 11_15_05.
> 
> ...



I am wondering how KillingtonZone.com got set-up. It has the same exact format as AlpineZone. If there is a way to set up a SugarbushZone that would be great.


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## SkiDork (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Sub- Posts*



			
				walknet2 said:
			
		

> Treeskier said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We set up KZone when they decided to shut down the old killingtonchat.com

5 of us posters just set it up.  I had actually asked Greg if it was OK to use the "zone" moniker and he gave us the OK.  We just split the yearly costs for the web hosting between us.  We basically got all the old killingtonchat posters registered on our site, as they were looking for a new home and we filled that need.

We haven't really spent that much effort getting it listed high up on Google, despite tips given to us by Greg.  Laziness I guess.  But I think to start a new Sugarbush forum out of the blue, you would want to try to get a good Google listing (for the search string "sugarbush" of course).

Juist some ramblings...


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## Vortex (Nov 16, 2005)

Dork glad to have you stop in.  He and his family have been nice to the Az folk when Killington is on the skiiing agenda. 

 I post a little there.  The atomoshere is different.  Most people concentrated on just K.


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## SkiDork (Nov 16, 2005)

Bob R said:
			
		

> Dork glad to have you stop in.  He and his family have been nice to the Az folk when Killington is on the skiiing agenda.
> 
> I post a little there.  The atomoshere is different.  Most people concentrated on just K.



I would've like to do the race team with you guys if I lived closer...


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## Vortex (Nov 16, 2005)

The race team should be fun.  Just great to get out of work early and ski.  I gave my boss a formal winter schedule I wanted to adhere to. Booking early Monday and Friday were on the list.  Man I love ski season.

Back to sugarbush talk.  Sorry


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## noski (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Sub- Posts*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Sub Treads
> 
> If your review skiing chat room history. You will find that RSN’s Sugarbush’s chat room thrived. It was able to convince the powers to be to re-open twice. Plus it was able to produce change (remember when after so many posts that the MT allowed the walking to Castlerock….then produced ski patrol as normal for those skiing down) Why we love Sugarbush Valley. In that vain…… 38 pages of this thread to date 11_15_05.
> 
> ...


Sugarbush Valley????? tsk tsk tsk


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## castlerock (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Drove by a couple of weeks ago.....and it's definitely eye catching....*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Case in point, a developer starts building some townhouses(Maple something), the one at the corner of Gold Course Rd and the access road, first developement on/near the mountain in 15 years. They go bankrupt, landowner has to take over. Are they completed?


I can't even conceive how the Maples project could have run into any financial difficulty. (financial, not organizational) Between the time that project started and finished, the prices for 3BR condos at/near the mountain increased at least 50%. (Case in point: Castlerock units transacted at $139K in fall'02, $285K fall'05).

If the builder had his/her act together, any bank would float the loan. Any difficulties in that project can't be attributed to the real estate conditions in the valley


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Sub- Posts*



			
				noski said:
			
		

> Treeskier said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are you gonna do? Someone puts up a sign and soon everyone believes it. I heard Cohen paid 50,000 bucks to change it from the Mad River Valley to Sugarbush Valley. 

I guess people believe what they read. Even tho Sugarbush Valley was a made up marketing name and no one paid much attention to it I was happy the chamber changed from the Sugarbush chamber to the MRV Chamber.


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Drove by a couple of weeks ago.....and it's definitely eye catching....*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> ski_resort_observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree! The condo market is tight as a drum. I have been waiting for a 4 BR South Village unit to come on the market for 3 years. There are only a few up there so I am not holding my breath. 

As far as the Castlerock unit you mentioned based on that markup I would have to believe that the owners put some money into the unit as while they have a good location, the building, as are all of the condos at the Bush, is in need of updating. Even in 2002 139k is pretty cheap for a 3 BR multilevel unit walking distance to the slopes and SHARC.


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## castlerock (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Drove by a couple of weeks ago.....and it's definitely eye catching....*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> As far as the Castlerock unit you mentioned based on that markup I would have to believe that the owners put some money into the unit as while they have a good location, the building, as are all of the condos at the Bush, is in need of updating. Even in 2002 139k is pretty cheap for a 3 BR multilevel unit walking distance to the slopes and SHARC.



I wouldn't want to mislead anyone, those prices weren't  for one specific unit. I bought mine for 139 (hence my alias here), there was another on the market at that time for 145. They were both in the same shape (original, 1970's beige everything) But during this run-up there have been 6 or 7 sales. The condition of the unit has been irrelevant to the price. If a unit came on the market it was gone immediately. And at a price 10-15% above the last transaction.


----------



## Rustyfan (Nov 16, 2005)

*Condos*

I recall looking at a 3 br Castlerock unit in the late Spring of '01, priced somewhere around $150K.  We bought a 2 br Snow Creek condo instead, for just over $100K.  My understanding is that Snow Creek condos are selling at $220K and higher.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Condos*



			
				Rustyfan said:
			
		

> I recall looking at a 3 br Castlerock unit in the late Spring of '01, priced somewhere around $150K.  We bought a 2 br Snow Creek condo instead, for just over $100K.  My understanding is that Snow Creek condos are selling at $220K and higher.



When your talking about Snowcreek that old saying, "location,location, location" falls into play. It seems being slopeside is an amenity that just keeps going up in value. 

When I started working at the Bush(1997), the most expensive units we rented were the Southface(townhouse) and South Village homes. Last winter it was the Snowcreek units. Even tho a 2 bedroom Snowcreek pales in comparisom to a 2 bedroom Southface, it's the location that made Snowcreek the most desirable therefore the most expensive.  

Both you guys have made some smart investments. My tiny little one bedroom unit has also doubled in value from when I bought it in 2000.

Lost - by the pics you post I think I know where your at. Great location! Being stumbling distance to beer has great value as well.  :beer:


----------



## Rustyfan (Nov 16, 2005)

We actually liked the Castlerock setup more than Snow Creek, and we also liked the Summit condos, but the convenience of slopeside at Snow Creek made the difference.  Having spent three winters driving up the Killington access road, slopeside was nirvana.  It was a buyers' market back then.  However, Snow Creek is 2br only, so you're really squeezed with guests.  Southface is outrageous--what a great job they did with those.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 16, 2005)

Rustyfan said:
			
		

> We actually liked the Castlerock setup more than Snow Creek, and we also liked the Summit condos, but the convenience of slopeside at Snow Creek made the difference.  Having spent three winters driving up the Killington access road, slopeside was nirvana.  It was a buyers' market back then.  However, Snow Creek is 2br only, so you're really squeezed with guests.  Southface is outrageous--what a great job they did with those.



There are a few Snowcreek's with lofts but I hear what your saying. I always wonder if those little washer and dryer units work very well. Wonder if it gets alittle noisy with people walking up and down the stairs with ski boots on.

Those Southface units are sweet, most have hottubs, your own driveway/carport and the view from those huge windows in the living room are amazing. 

Being multilevel townhouses both Castlerock and Summit are very roomy. From the Summit complex if there is enough snow you can ski down the bottom of Village Run for a short walk to the slopes.


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## Rustyfan (Nov 16, 2005)

Stairs aren't a problem at Snow Creek, but we're now replacing the washer/dryer (sounds like a jet taking off!).  We've now replaced all the appliances, installed twin bunks, upgraded the hearth, re-painted and put up new drapes.  Other than replacing the carpet and some old furniture, we're done.  The condo manager is very good at taking care of all sorts of little things.


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## Lostone (Nov 16, 2005)

> Could we have sub-threads? That are only applicable to……..say….to any thread that has 10 pages or more?



I believe that this type of forum doesn't allow sub-threads.  The mods can probably answer better.

You always have the option of starting a new thread, from the ski/ride forum.  It could say Where, at Sugarbush are you playing...  or some such.

But for the moment, we have a mission in the Sugarbush Thread.

There was a question as to whether we would be a larger thread (_And they tell me that size does matter. _  ) than the Guess the Ski Area thread.  

It was started well before we were, but it now has 57 pages and we have 39.   :beer: 

And it ain't even ski season yet!    


_ This is the point where people tell me I need to get a life.  _   :lol: 


.


----------



## smootharc (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: The Maples at Lincoln Peak....*



			
				castlerock said:
			
		

> ski_resort_observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are 18 townhouse units on 6 acres. The initial phase buildings (2 buildings with 4 units each) are built, fully sold, and all closed. It was during the building of these units that a hiccup occured - the general contractor and developer "stopped seeing eye to eye" and a "divorce" occured. It delayed the project, subs walked, and it was in limbo for months. Never was a financial problem, and a settlement was reached. 

In the meantime the valley RE prices went up noticeably, and when the project continued with Phase II buildings (2 buildings, 5 units each) the prices of the unsold units had been increased....I believe 7 or 8 of the 10 available. There is currently only one (I believe, or maybe two) units left....interior units in Building C, which is the building along the Access Road and by Paradise Deli.  

The construction is being nicely done, and the units should be very nice.


----------



## Schusseur (Nov 16, 2005)

*Weather situation?*

How about an update. Are we really opening this weekend? Sure hope so, but 68 degrees in November in Connecticut makes me wonder...


----------



## Strat (Nov 16, 2005)

Not a chance. But at least the snowmaking pond is full  8)


----------



## Lostone (Nov 16, 2005)

Love to be able to give a firm answer, but all I can do is guess.    

My guess is that they'll open.  It was 64° up here around 2:30, and now it reads 40°.  I'm @ ~ 1600', which is pretty much the base of Lincoln peak.

They didn't (according to reports from civilians checking it out) lose all their snow.  And it is supposed to be flirting with 30° from tonight until...?

My guess is that they'll open. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...   for tonight, at least.   :wink:


----------



## Strat (Nov 16, 2005)

I dunno... they can only blow so much snow...


----------



## Lostone (Nov 16, 2005)

I hear ya, and my source for info about this is no better than yours, but I heard that Elbow looked ok, today.  If so, Rim Run can't be too much worse.  They have two days.

And I have heard Winn and Hardy talking about it a couple times.  I think they _really _ want to open.

Will they?  Well, on Saturday, one of us will be right.   :wink: 


_Psst....    I'm voting for me._   :lol: 



.


----------



## Strat (Nov 16, 2005)

On second or third thought... the mountain forecast for tomorrow/friday looks different than I expected...



> "The higher summits forecast for Vermont and Northern New York:
> 
> Thursday: Summits obscured in clouds. Snow showers. highs in the lower to mid 20S. West To southwest winds 25 to 35 mph.
> Friday: Summits generally obscured by clouds. Occasional flurries. highs in the 20S. Northwest winds around 40 mph."



Hmm, winds don't bode well for getting snow on the trails though... we'll see...


----------



## AHM (Nov 17, 2005)

All:  In regards to conditions, I posted a ski report on Tuesday.  There was a significant amount of snow.  Elbow skied cherry all the way to the glen house and upper rimmy (off the summit), a spot where wash out has a high potential was blown in in "a glacial style", but nonetheless skied quite well.  That said, they would need to lose it all, to be able to not recover.  So, I think there is a pretty good chance they'll give it a go.  For me:  I'll wait 'til its top to bottom.  See ya in early Dec...............AHM


----------



## mtnlady (Nov 17, 2005)

*News and quesses*

Not a guess, but not "news" either, as we still can't say definitely about being able to open Saturday.  Plans are full speed ahead, with snowmaking probably already re-started @ ME, and scheduled to start @ LP tonight.  Hardy reports that the route, if we open, will be Rim Run to Elbow to Spread Eagle to base of Summitt chair - one way to Glen House, and definitely up- and down-loading on GMX. Food service will be the Green Mtn Lounge in the base lodge, and the Glen House -- no ME cafeteria until Thanksgiving weekend. Opening time on GMX - not sure if 8 or 9AM, suspect 9AM and will ask today.

The decision whether to open Saturday will be finalized Friday afternoon. We hate to ask, but staff is requested to wait before taking runs - too little terrain with deference given to you guys who bought...

The Premature Jibulation (rail jam) is rescheduled for 12/3, during the day.

Regarding the layout of the loading area at base of Village Lift at LP, the question was asked several times at our Guest Service weekend, with response being that the layout has been scrutinized heavily by ski patrol and mtn ops and considered "good".  I suspect snow farming in that area will shape it.  The issue of the base of the Sunkid competing for space with the loading zone for Village lift - I will bring it up one more time...

Now, for the fun stuff:  the way that white castle has been described by the folks who built it, I believe it is for an owner, and is his 2nd residence - not for sale.  It resides close to the start of the Sugarbush Woods snowshoe trail on Shady Lane.

And we have had groomer/snowmobile road access through Slide Brook since
the intermountain lift went in - takes off north from the VR, has bridges across Slide Brook and Lockwood Brook.  The snowshoe trail we use for Outback Tours takes off from that service road. Should you go exploring, be aware that snowmoes from mtn ops travel through there, so keep you ears tuned and be prepared to step aside - quickly.

The concrete bunkers above Sugarbush Village - my memory fails as I used to know but it was discarded from my system - unimportant and needed the space up there 8)   Consequently, I'm embarrassed to ask, but on the other hand, they need to know I'm not as smart as they think I am ... stay tuned.


----------



## Strat (Nov 17, 2005)

Again, thanks for the updates mtnlady... you're our light in the dark  8)


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: News and quesses*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> Not a guess, but not "news" either, as we still can't say definitely about being able to open Saturday.  Plans are full speed ahead, with snowmaking probably already re-started @ ME, and scheduled to start @ LP tonight.  Hardy reports that the route, if we open, will be Rim Run to Elbow to Spread Eagle to base of Summitt chair - one way to Glen House, and definitely up- and down-loading on GMX.



Sounds like typical preseason route...nice...cheers!  :beer:


----------



## noski (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: News and quesses*



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> mtnlady said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can confirm that guns were blowing snow on Mt Ellen when I went thru at 6:30 this morning. Also I noted that while we had rain at the "lower" elevation, the ridge line to about 1/3 down was well frosted. Can't say how much is snow and how much was ice, but clearly it was colder there.


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## freeheel_skier (Nov 17, 2005)

Looks like the new SB website is up and running.  1st impression....looks pretty good   Hope to be skiing up there this weekend.  If not....maybe earning my turns!


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: News and quesses*



			
				mtnlady said:
			
		

> And we have had groomer/snowmobile road access through Slide Brook since
> the intermountain lift went in - takes off north from the VR, has bridges across Slide Brook and Lockwood Brook.  The snowshoe trail we use for Outback Tours takes off from that service road. Should you go exploring, be aware that snowmoes from mtn ops travel through there, so keep you ears tuned and be prepared to step aside - quickly.


mtnlady - 

Allow me to echo the sentiments of others and thank you for passing along the 411.  One question regarding your quote above.  Where exactly does that road lead to within Slide Brook?  Does it eventually intersect with the road used to access the blazed runs for the Outback tours?  If so, how far down?

Thanks again.


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## skibum1321 (Nov 17, 2005)

freeheel_skier said:
			
		

> Looks like the new SB website is up and running.  1st impression....looks pretty good   Hope to be skiing up there this weekend.  If not....maybe earning my turns!


I hope it's only that slow because they just put it up. It is taking quite a while for pages to load.


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 17, 2005)

Definitely loading too slow.  I suppose that's to be expected this early after its launch.  The lift and trail report needs some work though b/c it's really confusing.  You can't see the diamonds against the black background - shocker - so it's tough to follow the whole flow of that page.  Also, there isn't any key to tell us where they are making snow or grooming or what's open and closed.


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## smootharc (Nov 17, 2005)

*Yup....very slow website.*

Not sure if that will change over time....if the design and server set-up are delivering this current performance, I'm not sure why that would change for the better if they don't make changes.


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## vtskibum (Nov 17, 2005)

*you beat me too it....*



			
				Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Definitely loading too slow.  I suppose that's to be expected this early after its launch.  The lift and trail report needs some work though b/c it's really confusing.  You can't see the diamonds against the black background - shocker - so it's tough to follow the whole flow of that page.  Also, there isn't any key to tell us where they are making snow or grooming or what's open and closed.



Your keyboard must be faster than mine.  While I was gonna say nothing, the more I try to use the new site, the more I have to...

IMHO it is/was not ready for public consumption.  First off waaaaaaaaaay slow.  Colors on drop down menus make it hard to read text.  Trail status chart pretty much sucks.  Besides if I am reading it right (lil green o's next to trail name) everything is open now.  That said, I think it is a good start but it needs some help.


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## vtskibum (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: you beat me too it....*



			
				vtskibum said:
			
		

> Colors on drop down menus make it hard to read text.



I talked to someone else who is seeing the drop downs as white on black.  Mine are light blue on green.  When I drop down it changes to yellow on gray.  Not sure if this is the pilot, the browswer I am using (Mozilla Firefox), or something funky in the website coding.  Plenty of time to explore while waiting for the site to change pages


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 17, 2005)

The new website is working fine for me. I use Firefox browser.


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## vtskibum (Nov 17, 2005)

vtskibum said:
			
		

> vtskibum said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All of my browser settings are at default.  I did not remember changing them since switching to Firefox and confirmed I had not.

Not a big deal to me.  Truth be told don't visit the bush site very often.


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## vtskibum (Nov 17, 2005)

*on a brighter note*

it is snowing and the mountain is turning white.  Now for my next month or so haitus from this place.  Catch ya on the hill


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## Lostone (Nov 17, 2005)

*Site report pt 1       Speed*

Well, either a lot of people left it, or the site has been sped up greatly.  And that's a good thing.

First loaded it on machine II.  Needed Flash on this one.  Took a long time to get to the point of telling me that.  Then loaded pretty quickly.  Pages seemed to be taking a long time.

Did a check on Machine III.  ( _Where's machine I?  Don't ask! _ :lol: )  Took a long time to load.  Then I chose a page at random and tried to time how long it took.  I was over 2.5 minutes when someone started talking to me, and I lost count. (I was counting with the one- one thousand method, as I didn't expect it to take that long.)   My guess is that it took over 5 minutes for that one page to load.

Then I got the stopwatch to time a few...  around 20 seconds per page.

Back to machine II to check the page that took forever...  ~30 seconds.

Tried it with IE...  loaded the site in less than a minute.  I think it sped up since I started testing.


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## Lostone (Nov 17, 2005)

*Site report pt 2          Useability*

What I like:
Nothing!    



Just kidding!    :wink: 


I really like the pix on top.  They're all black and white until you put your pointer over them.  Then they turn colors and start to change.

I like how you can find almost everything (_Maybe everything, but I haven't looked for everything, yet._) from the dropdowns on the front page.

I like the combinations of pictures and text for each of the pages.  

Still love the interactive map.  I know it isn't new, but still a very valuable part of the website, and an attention getter.

What I don't like:

When scrolling thru the menus on the dropdowns, when you get between items, the menu disappears.  Too distracting.



Other...

The weather report is for Tuesday, Nov 1?
Looks like the trail report has everything open?

If the speed problem goes away, I think it will be pretty neat.

Anyone checked it out on Dial-up?


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## Strat (Nov 17, 2005)

Site is loading very, very slowly for me, seems to be almost locking up my IE at times... hope they can work out the bugs soon... at the moment, looking very, very weak...

EDIT (10 minutes later): Okay, okay, I'm officially in love with this site now. A few bugs need to be worked out, but a nice step up from the old one. Loving all the new photography especially...

EDIT (some more minutes later): New trails?! Well, not necessarily new, but Cat's Meow and Snowflake are back on the trailmap, having been lost over 15 and 25 years ago respectively... something totally new, "Castlerock Hi Road and Lo Road" two trails listed as one... wow... didn't think they would mess with the trail count number again, but that's impressive...


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## noski (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: Site report pt 2          Useability*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> I really like the pix on top.  They're all black and white until you put your pointer over them.  Then they turn colors and start to change.


Ah, geeze, now I have to go back and look for that. I didn't notice it! :dunce:


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## mtnlady (Nov 17, 2005)

*answers for Tin Woodsman*

I'm now looking at the map of Slide Brook.  The Winter Work Road takes off north from VR just where VR turns downhill above SB Village, crosses the ski zones in Slide Brook after they converge (heading to German Flats) proceeds north to lower FIS, below the old rope tow - pretty much a straight shot across.  The other roads you see while taking an Outback Ski/Ride Tour are evacuation routes to the Slide Brook lift. Road 1/1A crosses all three zones (Slip & Slide, Roller Coaster, and Vertical Reality) and can be seen riding the lift from LP to ME as you descend towards Slide Brook.  Road 2 follows the exit route from Vertical Reality along the south side of Slide Brook. Other maps I have are unclear to me. There may be other evac routes north of Slide Brook, but those are well beyond the legal ski zones. 

Finally, those concrete bunkers you wondered about off the Village Run are water wells and provide water to the Lincoln Peak area and Sugarbush Village.
I'll never forget that factoid again!


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 17, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> EDIT (some more minutes later): New trails?! Well, not necessarily new, but Cat's Meow and Snowflake are back on the trailmap, having been lost over 15 and 25 years ago respectively... something totally new, "Castlerock Hi Road and Lo Road" two trails listed as one... wow... didn't think they would mess with the trail count number again, but that's impressive...


That's too bad they put Hi & Lo on the trail map.  Those were fun little stashes that almost always delivered due to their permanently roped off status.

Also new to themap this year, IIRC, is "Paradise Extension".  Not sure what it used to be called before the whole Ripcord abortion went in, but it was one of only two ways to get back from the Spillsville/Paradise area.  It too has always been roped off and a lot of fun due to lack of traffic.  They'll probably start grooming it now too.


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## Bosefius (Nov 17, 2005)

Site is working fine for me.  Pages loading up at a normal speed (using Internet Explorer).  I like the new look.


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## Lostone (Nov 17, 2005)

Let's see how many of these I can remember...



> Ah, geeze, now I have to go back and look for that. I didn't notice it!  :dunce:



It's even worse!  If you've already done it, now you have todo it again!  Go back and click on the pic.  They go full screen and then go to an ad for whichever item (_*Experience Aspire Refuel Envision * and *Discover *_) was in the pix.  

Not clear?  Click on Discover.  Lots of stuff there, and I think you would like it.   :wink: 



> The Winter Work Road takes off north from VR just where VR turns downhill above SB Village, crosses the ski zones in Slide Brook after they converge (heading to German Flats) proceeds north to lower FIS, below the old rope tow - pretty much a straight shot across.



Thanx for that info.  I was pretty sure that's what it was.   And there ain't a lot of other places for it to be heading, in that direction.  :wink:



> Finally, those concrete bunkers you wondered about off the Village Run are water wells and provide water to the Lincoln Peak area and Sugarbush Village.



And this was another thing that I'd been wondering since first I saw it.  I figured it had to be water or waste, and as the one at Village Run is above any building, water seemed more likely.  (_Do you want to pump it *up* the hill, or Do you want to pump it *down* the hill?_)



> I'll never forget that factoid again!



You'd better not!  :argue:   We will be having another quiz in a month or so...  if we can take a break from skiing.   8) 

Thanx for the info.   :wink:


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## Strat (Nov 17, 2005)

Tin Woodsman said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, Paradise Extension, new as well... trail count is still 111 though... maybe they did some upper-lower consolidation... not really worth comparing now, but eventually I'll figure it out...

mtnlady - would be very, very interested in seeing that slide brook map... is it super confidential resort material or is it possible you could scan it or something? Would make a very nice addition to my site... 
EDIT: And one more thing... where is the webcam? It's traditionally been the most helpful and enjoyable part of the sugarbush website for me, would be a huge loss to see it gone for good...


----------



## smootharc (Nov 18, 2005)

*Ditto....*



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> mtnlady - would be very, very interested in seeing that slide brook map... is it super confidential resort material or is it possible you could scan it or something? Would make a very nice addition to my site...



....on Slidebrook map....


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## noski (Nov 18, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> EDIT: And one more thing... where is the webcam? It's traditionally been the most helpful and enjoyable part of the sugarbush website for me, would be a huge loss to see it gone for good...


You wanna take a guess how many times I looked at the Sugarcam and felt bad about that poor guy sitting all alone in front of the Season Pass office at LP?  :dunce:  :dunce:  :dunce:


----------



## Lostone (Nov 18, 2005)

Even worse!    

you could see the season pass office from the cam, so he couldn't be in there.  
 *He has been in the clock tower!* 

I just hope they remembered to let him out, when they were doing the mods, there.  :roll:

And once again, my vote for the cam to be a Lincoln Peak. 8)  Much better "village" look than watching the pipe at North.   :wink:


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 18, 2005)

LP is def a better place.  Then again, I always got a kick out of the kids that would be tredging up the pipe in themidst of the first snowfall in 2 weeks.  Seems like a waste to me, but whatever floats yer boat.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 18, 2005)

noski said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I always felt the worst jobs at the Bush was the person who had to stand/sit all day at the bottom of the Magic Carpet and the people working behind the ticket windows at LP. 

Course, the Magic Carpet is not there anymore and the ticket windows aren't used either. Now the hardest job for employees is walking from emp parking lot to the base area or getting up to HR during a blizzard.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 18, 2005)

Seems to me that if there is a blizzard, walking to any job....  (as opposed to say...   the lift... to do a little skiing?   :blink: ) would be a tough job.   :lol:


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 18, 2005)

*It's official they are opening tomorrow at 8*

Just got the word. Open tomorrow at 8. Looked around the web site but did not find the web cam. Anyone know where it is?


----------



## noski (Nov 18, 2005)

*Re: It's official they are opening tomorrow at 8*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> Just got the word. Open tomorrow at 8. Looked around the web site but did not find the web cam. Anyone know where it is?


I am pulling a Lostone here, but I think it was decided to not put it back up. I think that is unfortunate, IMHO. The MRV site has one and the intention is to move it (soon) to a site where it at least has a view of the mountains... MRG site has a cam.


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## Lostone (Nov 18, 2005)

If I told you once I told you a thousand times, young lady...  Don't exagerate...   

No...  That ain't wat I told you.  It was don't pull Lostones!    :blink: 

Oh...      Ok, so I didn't tell you that either?


Uh...       I'll go sit quietly in the corner, then.   :dunce: 



 :lol: 


.


----------



## Strat (Nov 19, 2005)

Just noting, there is a new lift/trail report format, much like the old one, but it appears to be the same data as existed last year - no sign of new trails yet, and the Beginner's Poma is still listed.

Still wondering what the motivation for adding the "new" trails was... Cat's Meow's sort of a dangerous dead-end in my opinion, and how many people are really going to hike over to Snowflake? Maybe it can be used as a beginner area like I've been proposing for quite some time... seems like it might've been a good idea to take the now-removed Poma from South and put it there, no?


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## Lostone (Nov 19, 2005)

I saw Cat's Meow (_Or what I think is it_) while hiking one day.  That is a neat little trail!  Sorry they put it on the map as I'd planned it for one of those powder day leftovers.  

Be interesting to see how they bring it back to Spring Fling.   :wink:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2005)

Strat said:
			
		

> Maybe it can be used as a beginner area like I've been proposing for quite some time... seems like it might've been a good idea to take the now-removed Poma from South and put it there, no?



I nominate Strat as Jr Manager at SB.  :beer:

Seriously, I recall you mentioning these ideas at the challenge and was like, "yeah, that makes sense to me."  IMHO Ellen has more potential right now than Lincoln Mess.  That beginner area with the park is just waiting to be redeveloped and has some decent terrain.

Everytime I ski Lower FIS through that ghost area, I get   and wonder why it is being put to waste.


----------



## Strat (Nov 19, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Strat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What can I say, I'm a logical guy with a passion...

Lostone: Cat's Meow is the trail that offshoots from the top of Racer's Edge and terminates at the edge of the parking lot at the upper row of Snow Creek condos... I say "terminate" because that's what it does. It just ends, with a very steep dropoff of a rock wall into the parking lot. Wondering as well how they're going to make that trail usable...


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 19, 2005)

Cat's Meow is also used by people staying at South Village to get back to that complex.


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## Lostone (Nov 19, 2005)

Yep!  That's the trail I thought it was.  

Wandered into there on a hike a few weeks ago.  I'd never seen that before.  In my mind, I saw it with a lot of almost untouched powder.    

At the end, if you hang to the left, there is a bridge that leads you back to Spring Fling.  Looks a little close for skier traffic, but we'll see next weekday powder day.   :wink: 

As for the beginners' poma, I think they've decided (_And I'm sure they're right!_) that pomas and beginners don't go well together.  Especially when it is a beginner on a board.

As for what with Snowflake...  I've used it for years.   :wink:   See the above conversation on Cat's Meow.   :wink:


----------



## Strat (Nov 19, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Yep!  That's the trail I thought it was.
> 
> Wandered into there on a hike a few weeks ago.  I'd never seen that before.  In my mind, I saw it with a lot of almost untouched powder.
> 
> ...


Haven't seen the bridge in my journeys around there, but it sounds like some sort of fix... seems like it may get icy fast, but not too many people will use the trail anyway, except for pow  8) 

I've done the same with Snowflake, just wondering if they plan to utilize it for beginner terrain or anything... if not, it seems like they could've left it off the map...

So I've been wondering the past few days how the trailcount is still 111, even with the new additions... and the answer is... *drumroll please*...

No more Zip or Spread Eagle. At least, they're off the trail map. Can't believe Sugarbush would take our beloved 50 footers off the map... *sob*... :wink:

Wonder what they're going to do with the signs... I'll gladly take them off their hands...


----------



## Lostone (Nov 19, 2005)

*WHAT???* 

 No more Zip???  

How could they do that to me???  

:angry:  Where's my lawyer?  :angry:

   Where am I to ski now?    


 :wink: 



.


----------



## Strat (Nov 19, 2005)

Checked up a bit more, as 4 new trails minus two old trails is still two trails too many... also removed was Ravenna's Way, and Brambles and Lower Brambles are now one.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> *WHAT???*
> 
> No more Zip???
> 
> ...



*BLASPHEMY!!!*  No Zip???  That was the best run on the entire mountain!  Remember what we say...size doesn't matter :lol:

Anyways...I noticed that the last few seasons SB has been actually knocking down the trail count by taking glades, etc off the list.  That was the only thing I noticed at the Ski Show last season...fewer trails for more money!  :lol:


----------



## Strat (Nov 19, 2005)

Well it was just the one drop when they added the new gladed areas... 115 -> 111...


----------



## Old Geezer (Nov 20, 2005)

*New website and former offsite ticket sales link?*

This url used to have a list of places to but lift tickets offsite: http://www.sugarbush.com/winter/tickets/offsite.htm

But with the new website it appears to be a dead link.  Does anybody know where that list is on the new website?  I used the search function, but all it returned was a page to "Sign up for any one of our email updates and become..."


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: New website and former offsite ticket sales link?*



			
				Old Geezer said:
			
		

> This url used to have a list of places to but lift tickets offsite: http://www.sugarbush.com/winter/tickets/offsite.htm
> 
> But with the new website it appears to be a dead link.  Does anybody know where that list is on the new website?  I used the search function, but all it returned was a page to "Sign up for any one of our email updates and become..."



Try here http://www.sugarbush.com/offsitetickets.aspx


----------



## Old Geezer (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: New website and former offsite ticket sales link?*



			
				ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Try here http://www.sugarbush.com/offsitetickets.aspx



Very helpful, thanks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2005)

Welcome Old Geezer!  :beer:


----------



## Old Geezer (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanks t.trailboss. 

Since everyone is in such a welcoming mood, another question. What are the chances of having more trails open on ME, such as from the summit down to the base of the North Ridge Quad?  I'm looking for insights based on past experience of how fast things open up, as well as on actual snow making and weather conditions.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2005)

Old Geezer said:
			
		

> Thanks t.trailboss.
> 
> Since everyone is in such a welcoming mood, another question. What are the chances of having more trails open on ME, such as from the summit down to the base of the North Ridge Quad?  I'm looking for insights based on past experience of how fast things open up, as well as on actual snow making and weather conditions.



It all depends...really does.  They usually try to push to get it down to N Ridge Express usually by the holiday and even down Straight Shot to the base.  In 2002 they were really rocking over there...lots of trails...but we had a lot of snow that season :roll:  Can anyone who was up there this weekend confirm as to what is being done?  Lostone?  Strat?  riverc0il?  

At any rate, the Mt Ellen summit area is decent for pre-season and post-season skiing....


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 20, 2005)

According to the trail report they are only making snow on upper Mt Ellen. FIS, Pamorama, RR and Elbow.With colder temps and some snow middle of the week hopefully they will be top to bottom by this weekend.


----------



## Strat (Nov 21, 2005)

Well if it snows the way they're predicting, we could see top to bottom as soon as this friday... maybe even lower elbow to cruiser as soon as wednesday...


----------



## Lostone (Nov 21, 2005)

Agreed that they are only working the top.  They have Elbow and are working FIS and Rim Run.

That said, if this snow hits, I would expect at least Northridge open by next weekend... :beer:  and I couldn't help notice all the guns in place on Straight Shot. :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Nov 22, 2005)

Snowing on the mountain, now.    

We'll shortly know the answer to when they will open more terrain.    :wink:


----------



## Old Geezer (Nov 22, 2005)

Anything more to report?


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 22, 2005)

*Mad River Snow report*

Mad River's email report: Happy Thanksgiving skiers. We are very thankful that it is currently dumping profusely!  We are expecting a storm total of 4-6" or more and potentially much, much  more on Turkey Day.   Our plan is to open as soon as Mother Nature allows which could be as early as this weekend if some of these weather forecasts truly pan out.  The snowline has been creeping down the mountain all day. We have received 2" at the base already today (at 5 PM)  with between 4-5" up top. Snow is expected throughout the night tonight. The winds have picked up and visibility is limited. Another storm is expected on Thanksgiving Day which has the potential for snow measured in feet. We will need a fair amount of snow, and the right kind, to be able to open as the mountain is very wet and there is no base underneath . At this point the plan is to make a call on opening for the wee kend on Friday. Stay tuned for the latest. 

Ski Basin's (killington) Email: About 2:00 today it started to snow hard, snow originally started first thing this morning. If you are heading this way, tomorrow will be a powder day. It may not be in inches it looks more like a foot or better tonight. Forecast are calling for 2 feet or better before it ends later in the week. See attached - natural snow trails are starting to be skiable.  I would expect a few to open tomorrow. Rick


----------



## Old Geezer (Nov 22, 2005)

Lostone said:
			
		

> Snowing on the mountain, now.
> We'll shortly know the answer to when they will open more terrain.    :wink:



Got the MRG and Killington report above, but any more details on Sugarbush opening up more runs?


----------



## Lostone (Nov 22, 2005)

Sorry....  I was busily posting anddoing emails.  Then, disappointed with the rain and spiting snow outside, I decided to call someone at the mountain.  They said there was 5" at the top of the GMX and 9" at the summit.  Typing time was declared over, and I headed for the mountain.  

Certainly didn't think there was any 5" at the top of the GMX.  As I got off Summit, there was no snow.    

The wind was whipping.  I was going over extreme hardpack and rock, saying that this was going to be a little rough.  

After the first pitch, my skis hit something, and it felt a little like snow.  That was the end of my complaining.    

Still not sure about the 5" and 9", but there was a lot of snow on the trail and probably a ton more blowing in the woods.  (_Wasn't that a song?_ :roll: )

Really glad I went out!     Tomorrow?  

Site is saying that they are opening Lower Rim Run.  


.


----------



## skibum1321 (Nov 23, 2005)

The Bush is posting 18" from the storm, which I have a hard time buying, especially considering MRG's report of 2-5" last night. It also seems that they would have opened another trail or 2 today if that were the case. Anyone have a firsthand report?


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 23, 2005)

I've seen reports from MRG indicating perhaps 8-10" at the midstation and up to 18" at the top, but there was a lot of drifing so it's hard to know.  Regardless, the trail count stuck at 3 is depressing.

Edit:  I should note that Stowe is reporting only 6-8".  ALong with the limited trail count, it leads me to believe that the SB employees who measured the snowfall sutck their rules in the nearest drift they could find.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 23, 2005)

In their defense, I would say there was a ton of drifting.  

That said, I didn't meet one person who agreed with the 18".   :blink: 

Lower Rim Run had mixed reports, running on the poor side.  They'd made snow before the warmup, then there was the snow, and they opened it under snowguns.  It had everything.

Elbow had mostly powder on a groomed surface.    

Lot of smiling people on that one!   :wink: 

More tomorrow?   :beer:


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 24, 2005)

*Happy Thanksgiving to all!*

Happy Thanksgiving to all! It's snowing hard here in Metrowest MA with 1" new so far.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 24, 2005)

*Today's report.*

Up here, it snowed most of the night and thru most of the day.  Didn't look at the Sugarbush site to see how much snow they said was down.

I did go up on the mountain, where I found smiles on almost every face.  The wind was still blowing everyone and everything around, but the snow was soft and silky.  

Added FIS and Lower Rim Run.  Talk of a few more, tomorrow.  Bottom still needs a lot, but they had a few guns going alnong Straight Shot.

First hift skiers had a hard time pulling themselves off the mountain, while the second shift got there a little early.  It was pretty crowded around 12:00Then, as the first shift headed out to their Thanxgiving dinner, there were less people on the trails, but still a lot of smiles.

I got a few pix.  I’ll look at them and see if I have any that are worth posting, but first I have to make my Thanxgiving meal.  I think you should all feel sorry for me…  but then again…  I went skiing.  
 :beer: 


.


----------



## KingM (Nov 24, 2005)

Thanks for the update Lostone. As of 20:00 it looks like we totaled about 12" here on the valley floor. I got in the hot tub with the kids late this afternoon and it looked like it had completely stopped, but then a few lazy flakes started falling and here I am a few hours later and I need to shovel the decks again. I'm not complaining. 

Can anyone wish away this warming trend we have coming for next week? I guess I've been tricked by this January-ish weather and have to remind myself it's still November.


----------



## noski (Nov 25, 2005)

*Top to Bottom*

Sugarbush Mt. Ellen is top to bottom for those that want to know that. That should continue all weekend. Of course those that know the trails can simply read the trail report... :dunce:


----------



## Lostone (Nov 25, 2005)

*A slightly longer winded trail report?*

(_ Posted both places. _  :wink:

This is the Friday after Thanxgiving.  As we have had a couple days of widely advertised snow, I expected a crowd.  I was not disappointed.  I arrived early and was in the line for the GMX when it opened.  We’d had a lot of snow overnight.  I was expecting powder for the first run and maybe a touch left for the second.  I was disappointed.  Everything had been groomed this morning.  The only powder was on FIS, and that is not a first run trail for me.

I headed down Rim Run.  Looked on the right.  Small strip, but nothing.  When the trail turned left, I saw a one person wide strip of powder on the lefts side.   Quickly checking and finding that I was only one person, I decided to give it a try.  There were a few places where I had to abandon it due to a snowgun or a few branches, but mostly it was great!  I had my own personal powder run while everyone around me was making much better time back to the lift, cruising the packed powder.  (The packed powder, by the way was a really nice surface.  It was mostly soft and so carveable that I almost dumped a few times on the early part.  I was setting a slight edge and it was taking quicker than I expected.)

	I did one on Looking Good (_with a detour onto the trail formerly known as Zip_.) and one on Elbow.  They were ok, but there were a lot of people at the lift.  Second run the singles line worked, but the third, it was well beyond the regular line and I made better time pairing (quadding?) up with some other people.  

	On the third run I met up with the people that I was supposed to be meeting, so I  figured I’d maybe head out after the fourth.  As I approached Northridge, I saw the Thin Cover sign by Exterminator.  Not one of my favorite trails, but I figured that if it was to be a four run day, I should at least run one down something tough.   

	I went past the sign and found that although there were rocks around (_On Exterminator? Imagine that_!) but that the snow was all soft, and what bumps there were, were powder puffs.  It told me to come back and see it sometime.  And I did so…  twice more.  Then I was getting ready to head out, but as I came across the traverse, toward that lift, there was an ambassador saying that they would be opening to the bottom in about an hour.  There was also a line halfway across the flats to the downloading side of the lift.  Hey, I can do Exterminator again.

	By the time I got down to the bottom of Lower Elbow, they were pulling the rope off the way down to Cruiser.  The line to the lift had been pretty long, and I was stopping to take a few pix along the way, but there was no way it was as much as a half hour.  Still, I was there.  What could I do?

I went around the rope, cut hard left and had a great untracked powder run for about 50 yards.  Then I hit the area that had been covered by the snowgun.  I bounced off the top.  

	The rest of the way down was very tricky.  There was unbreakable crust, breakable crust and heavy powder.  There were a few times I had great untracked powder on the right side, tight up by the woods and others when I was doing my best not to get killed.

	Cruiser was tough.  Straight Shot was ugly!  There was a packed line, which had a lot of people crashing all over the place.  The left side was where the guns were working, and that was more of the maybe, maybe not breakable crust.  There were also a lot of moving rocks in the packed line.  As I got to the bottom of Crackerjack and saw people coming down it, I realized I’d made a bad choice.

	At the bottom, my friend headed and his wife headed in.  I headed back to the lift.  It was tough, but there was enough snow to justify another try.  On the way up, I noticed people coming down Cliffs.  Then I saw people coming down Encore.  Then I realized they had thrown the mountain open.  

There were lots of rocks around, but there was a lot of natural snow.  If you went past a Thin Cover sign, don’t whine about the rocks.  Enjoy the snow.  

I went down Cliffs.  By the time I got there a lot of people had found it, so there was no untracked powder.  Still, all the snow was soft, and it was a true blast.  At the bottom, I diverted to Crackerjack.  There were lots more rocks around and the waterbars were…  exciting.  Still, there were large patches of semi and untracked snow.  I went up, did the same, again.  

Then I decided that there is a thin line between having a great run and having a sled ride to the bottom.  I decided to leave the rest for others.  I left the mountain with a very sore back, two very sore legs, and…  a really big smile.  :beer:

Pix to follow.     :wink:


----------



## Lostone (Nov 26, 2005)

Not a lot of pix, from yesterday worth much but I did get a few worthwhile.  See some of them  here.
There is a link on the top, right to view as a slideshow.  


  8) 


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2005)

Awesome report...I don't miss those 'moving rocks' in SB's preseason snow :roll:  Sounds like a nice day...had a great one today at Sunapee, but I was thinking about 'Ellen, especially since their HSQ is similar to North Ridge.


----------



## Lostone (Nov 26, 2005)

> I don't miss those 'moving rocks' in SB's preseason snow :roll:



Well, you still had the option of downloading.  And after they opened up to the bottom, the line to download disappeared, so it was easy to do.  :wink:

They knew that the terrain was very sketchy for cover, down there, But there is a point where you just put up the Thin Cover sign and let them go.

A lot of people hit rocks an stones.  A lot of people were smiling.    

I ran into those rocks the first time down, but I took two more.  And I really wanted to go back for more.  But it was day 6 in a row, of my first six.  I'd done 4 double diamond runs (Tho it was a very easy double diamond, due to all that soft snow.) and two single diamond runs (See above.  :wink: ) and a blue box run which was much harder than any of the diamonds.  

Yes, I hit a lot of rocks.    

But it was a _*great *_ day.   :beer: 


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2005)

You're absolutely right, Lostone...the small 'groomer till' was a small price to pay...but it is funny the little things one remembers.  

I look back fondly on my many days at SB and look forward to getting back there soon...

:beer:


----------



## bullwheel12 (Nov 28, 2005)

All i have to say is "Moonshine"!!!   Super fluffy, deep, just enough underneith the pow to keep you off the ground... just pure pleasure sat and sunday!!!  thank you snow god!


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 28, 2005)

*The Tables have turned!!!*

As long as I can remember Mad River kept Sugarbush honest. They would open natural trails when they should even if it was rocky. But this weekend Sugarbush lead the way and opened natural trails a head of Mad River. (who should most definitly been OPEN) Shame on them!!!!!! 

There was definelty fine fluff to be found!


----------



## Strat (Nov 28, 2005)

Bravo was covered in more dirt than snow... but many didn't seem to care... more power to 'em...

I, however, was hitting Lower Northstar, which was tracked but definitely held some ungroomed goodness, even 4 days after the dump... it almost made the circus on Cruiser worth it...


----------



## Xcreamus (Nov 29, 2005)

*Wow!*

Hardly noticeable on their flashy site, the statement closed due to conditions!  

I had gone right past the notice, looking for the trail report.   :roll: 

 :argue:


----------



## Lostone (Nov 29, 2005)

Yeah, kinda took the wind out of my sails, too.

I was on my way over to the mountain.    

Guess I'll convert the time to chores.    :blink: 

Chores or skiing?  Just doesn't seem fair!   :roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Wow!*



			
				Xcreamus said:
			
		

> Hardly noticeable on their flashy site, the statement closed due to conditions!
> 
> I had gone right past the notice, looking for the trail report.   :roll:
> 
> :argue:



No surprise at all considering the nasty weather as of late.  Why open on a rainy midweek day to lose money?


----------



## Treeskier (Nov 29, 2005)

*news from the MT*

I just went up to the Mt. for my 3pm runs and it was closed!!!  Talk to a manager there and she said, the rain got the snow at the summit and there was a large section of no snow.

Also at the top of the GMX there is a pond 2 feet deep.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: news from the MT*



			
				Treeskier said:
			
		

> I just went up to the Mt. for my 3pm runs and it was closed!!!  Talk to a manager there and she said, the rain got the snow at the summit and there was a large section of no snow.
> 
> Also at the top of the GMX there is a pond 2 feet deep.



So they LOST that much snow???  OUCH!  :x  That sucks.  Mt Ellen Summit is VERY exposed, so I imagine that a lot of the snow blew off beforehand and the rain and fog really did a number...


----------



## Lostone (Nov 30, 2005)

*New Forum*

For those that haven't noticed the message at the top, we now have a new chat forum for the Mad River Valley!

http://forums.skimrv.com/index.php

For talking about Sugarbush, mad River and the valley in general.  

Stop on by.  Help us move the furniture.   :lol: 

 :beer:   See you there!   :beer:


----------



## Greg (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: New Forum*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> For those that haven't noticed the message at the top, we now have a new chat forum for the Mad River Valley!
> 
> http://forums.skimrv.com/index.php
> 
> ...


The only problem with the new site is that this thread will now probably not surpass Austin's "Name the Ski Area" as the thread with the most posts...


----------



## Lostone (Dec 1, 2005)

Don't you try to fool me!  I know that was part of your plot!   :angry: 

:lol: 


_ You gotta admit, we were catching up really well!  Especially considering how many pix there were in the other thread, which take up a lot more room.  _ :wink: 


.


----------



## KingM (Dec 4, 2005)

I'm really wondering what's going on up there. Stowe has 35 trails open today and Killington has similar numbers. In spite of several inches of new snow and 48+ hours of snowmaking temps, Sugarbush is stuck on 3 trails. Were our temps/rainfall significantly worse here than anywhere else in the state?


----------



## Lostone (Dec 4, 2005)

They brought back FIS and Lower Rim Run today.  Skiing pretty well.  Thinking the'll be back to top - to - bottom tomorrow.


----------



## noski (Dec 12, 2005)

*Retiring this thread?*

gulp. No post in a week. Buried deep into page 2, the Sugarbush AZ thread is fading away. How best to send her off? Let her ski quietly off to the sunset? Send her off to www.skiMRV.com with fanfare? or keep her around for awhile longer?


----------



## Strat (Dec 12, 2005)

It has been circumvented by the Sugarbush Forum... an easy slide to retirement seems fit... goodbye oh Sugarbush Thread! You hath served us well!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2005)

Gotta keep it goin here...I hope :roll:


----------



## smootharc (Dec 13, 2005)

*I would suggest we have*

a link to this thread posted over to a locked Sugarbush Forum thread with title like "AplineZone Sugarbush Thread". 

I don't know if it makes sense to then lock this one, keeping it fixed over here with a pointer to the "SkiMRV Sugarbush Forum" at the end here ?  Someone else knows better than this guy on this stuff.  Just a thought.


----------



## Lostone (Dec 15, 2005)

No.  If we lock this one, it will sink into neverness.

I think it is valuable to keep it active, here.  That gives people who are Zonies (_Yeah it's a new word...  Why?    )  have a question or comment about Sugarbush, but don't want to register at another forum.

Of course, I encourage all who wish to join us over at  SkiMRV.com  to do so.  

Did I mention free beer?   :blink:     


 _


----------



## smootharc (Dec 16, 2005)

*hadn't thought about that, Lo....*

....though perhaps if they locked and put in a post it/sticky at top, then neverness could be avoided.  A thought.  

I think as much traffic as possible at SkiMRV is important....it seems a bit quiet over there, though I realize it's early days.

Happy trails.


----------



## Lostone (Dec 24, 2005)

*Sugarbush 47th year anniversary celebration...*

Did you go?  

Tickets were $5.50, the original price.

Everyone was there!   

Everyone I talked to, said they had a great time.

Were any of you there?  If so, what did you think?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2005)

Sorry.  Was at Burke.  Paid for that season pass, so had to use it :wink:  Was nice skiing though.


----------



## Lostone (Dec 31, 2005)

*No one else from here was there?*

 Surprising, as there were 15,243,235,974 people there!      (_Well, approximately.  _)   8)


----------



## NYDrew (Jan 1, 2006)

I left the day before.  Just couldnt ski anymore.  How sweet was the ungroomed peak though


----------



## smootharc (Mar 14, 2006)

*Price is $795,000.......*



			
				Lostone said:
			
		

> Not as bad looking as the white elephant a little lower, tho.   :roll:
> 
> I describe that one as the house for someone with way too much money, who wants a place in Vermont, but really doesn't like anything about the place.   :blink:
> 
> Be very interesting to see who actually buys it.   :-?





http://www.markolfdesigns.com/bridgehampton.htm


And it doesn't look as if it's sold, according to website and ad this week in Valley Reporter.  We all had it wrong...according to the builder's ad it's a Beach House in the Mountains.....


----------



## skibum1321 (Mar 14, 2006)

That house is pretty obnoxious. Glad to see the Sugarbush thread is back from the dead .


----------



## smootharc (Mar 14, 2006)

*I think, mostly, it's.....*



			
				skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Glad to see the Sugarbush thread is back from the dead .



....over at skimrv.com.  I just posted this here because of the real estate discussions as a follow up.  I think Lostone thought it was originally priced at $600k.  So, they bumped it up by 1/3.  Beauty don't come cheap. Sweet !


----------



## Lostone (Mar 23, 2006)

*Sugarbush Triathlon (April 15)*

Posted by Noski over at http://www.skimrv.com  

Shared here in case there are any other sucke...     Uh...  Intersted parties.  




> The 28th Sugarbush Triathlon (April 15) is a 4 event triathlon featuring paddling, running, biking and nordic legs. The event is never cancelled, regardless of weather. This event is part of the Vermont Adventure Games weekend. Kids Triathlon is April 15.
> 
> Visit http://www.sugarbush.com/vag.aspx for event and entry information.


----------



## noski (Mar 27, 2006)

Sugarbush skiers/skiMRV regulars had the honor of Win Smith initiating a sit-down, apres-ski chat (he even paid the beer tab- Thanks Win!) on Saturday afternoon 3/25. This may be precedent-setting and part of the uniqueness of Sugarbush and the MRV. Take a visit over on our side and see what was said...

http://forums.skimrv.com/about254.html


----------



## Greg (Mar 27, 2006)

noski said:
			
		

> Sugarbush skiers/skiMRV regulars had the honor of Win Smith initiating a sit-down, apres-ski chat (he even paid the beer tab- Thanks Win!) on Saturday afternoon 3/25. This may be precedent-setting and part of the uniqueness of Sugarbush and the MRV. Take a visit over on our side and see what was said...
> 
> http://forums.skimrv.com/about254.html


I applaud Win for doing this. Just goes to show that SV is far from a "faceless" company. Opening up yourself to questions and criticism like that took some balls.


----------



## noski (Apr 6, 2006)

*From the Man*

Bump. Had to drag this back from page 4.... Win Smith (owner/president) of Sugarbush gave his personal report for the upcoming weekend. I don't know of any other area, (MRG excluded) who gives it from the top, if you will.

http://forums.skimrv.com/about263.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2006)

He also is personally taking the AZ Challenge.  Get on board!


----------



## Greg (Apr 6, 2006)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> He also is personally taking the AZ Challenge.  Get on board!


http://forums.alpinezone.com/8213-2...lenge-sugarbush-owner-operator-win-smith.html


----------



## PowderDeprived (Apr 6, 2006)

Win is a great guy,  thanksgiving weekend he was out bumping chairs, and orginizing lift lines for the Sumit Quad,   The fact he would be out there on a 10 degree day playing liftie is pretty impressive. If all he cared about was marketing, he probably would have been standing inside of the lodge greeting people as they shell out cash for lift tickets, and overpriced (snomaking budget) cafiteria food


----------



## SKIQUATTRO (Apr 7, 2006)

how's the 'bush's conditions...thinking of heading up and skiing sunday.....


----------



## smootharc (Apr 7, 2006)

*This might help....*



			
				SKIQUATTRO said:
			
		

> how's the 'bush's conditions...thinking of heading up and skiing sunday.....



....http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=263


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2006)

Gonna be there tomorrow.  Anyone wanna join, let me know :wink:


----------



## PowderDeprived (Apr 7, 2006)

I hear the conditions are pretty sweet,  they reopened hamerhead tumbler, and encore,  but the last time I skied those they were extra sketchy so I wonder how they are now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2011)

Bump one of the greatest threads of all time and to give Sugarbush some love


----------



## gmcunni (Mar 14, 2011)

i noticed their billboard in I-91 in MA this weekend. Loved the tag line "Unlock your Inner Awesome"


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> i noticed their billboard in I-91 in MA this weekend. Loved the tag line "Unlock your Inner Awesome"


 
Yeah, that is a good ad.  I hear their radio ads quite often.


----------



## Scruffy (Mar 14, 2011)

I love the Bush. Was camped on Castle Rock the Friday before last.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 14, 2011)

I'll be hitting the Bush this weekend. Does Stowe or Sugarbush handle the Saturday crowd better?


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## djspookman (Mar 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump one of the greatest threads of all time and to give Sugarbush some love



YES!!  Bonjernios (spelling.. ugh) pizzeria!   yum, thanks for making my hungry for their BBQ chicken pizza!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2011)

djspookman said:


> YES!! Bonjernios (spelling.. ugh) pizzeria! yum, thanks for making my hungry for their BBQ chicken pizza!


 
I've driven by so many times.  Is it good?


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## djspookman (Mar 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> I've driven by so many times.  Is it good?



It was 5 years ago when I lived in the Valley, It's another "not-so" visited spot, so its usually not too crowded and loud.  Kind of a "country-pizzaria" atmosphere, and they have all kids of other italian dishes on the menu too.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2011)

djspookman said:


> It was 5 years ago when I lived in the Valley, It's another "not-so" visited spot, so its usually not too crowded and loud. Kind of a "country-pizzaria" atmosphere, and they have all kids of other italian dishes on the menu too.


 
Nice.  

Wonder if there are any buyers for the Millbrook?  That was a sad story.


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## djspookman (Mar 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice.
> 
> Wonder if there are any buyers for the Millbrook?  That was a sad story.



bummers, I hadn't heard anything about that until now!


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## noski (Mar 15, 2011)

djspookman said:


> bummers, I hadn't heard anything about that until now!


Joan seems to be doing well (she is a strong lady), and reopened the B&B part of the operation in late January, following Thom's sudden passing in December. The property is still for sale, but is a viable B&B operation at this time.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2011)

noski said:


> Joan seems to be doing well (she is a strong lady), and reopened the B&B part of the operation in late January, following Thom's sudden passing in December. The property is still for sale, but is a viable B&B operation at this time.


 
Hey noski--

GET BACK TO WORK stopping the impending r%^& that is threatening the MRV!  I want to ski on Friday!


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## noski (Mar 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey noski--
> 
> GET BACK TO WORK stopping the impending r%^& that is threatening the MRV!  I want to ski on Friday!



Yea, I did ok by you last week, all things considered, though I am not so confident this time (but I will work on my attitude)... Next 2 weeks, I am in FL, so you are on your own!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2011)

noski said:


> Yea, I did ok by you last week, all things considered, though I am not so confident this time (but I will work on my attitude)... Next 2 weeks, I am in FL, so you are on your own!


 
A-HAA!  So that is why we are having problems.


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## vonski (Mar 15, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'll be hitting the Bush this weekend. Does Stowe or Sugarbush handle the Saturday crowd better?



Sugarbush,  especially North.   Enjoy!


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## noski (Mar 17, 2011)

noski said:


> Yea, I did ok by you last week, all things considered, though I am not so confident this time (but I will work on my attitude)... Next 2 weeks, I am in FL, so you are on your own!


You know, TB, we might just pull this one off. I think you will be ok. Bring the Gore-tex, but by no means will this be a washout.


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## Nick (Feb 18, 2013)

Looking forward to a 1st attempt at the Bush this year. Long overdue visit.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 18, 2013)

^
Never been?

Wait until or go when Paradise is open. By far most fun zone of the mountain (including the woods and chutes beyond Paradise).

I won't even go to Sugarbush(South) unless this is in play.


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 18, 2013)

Nick said:


> Looking forward to a 1st attempt at the Bush this year. Long overdue visit.


Place rocks....Hope the rock is open!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

Nick you haven't been?  

My old stomping grounds.  You'll have a blast.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

And this thread is a blast from the past!  I think I will post some of my Sugarbush Stoke to get Nick psyched:

From 2008-2009:






The weekend my wife and I got engaged in 2008 (Elbow)






Powdah!






Caught in the Brambles....






Miss those days when it would snow in the morning and clear up at lunch:






Did someone say Castlerock?  Middle Earth:






Castlerock Warming Hut.  Where John Egan lived for a winter:






2009-2010:











FIS:











Crazy moose....






And good old Slide Brook:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

Peace and Quiet on Lower FIS:






North Ridge:






A Snowmonster:































The days of rock star parking....











Ah yeah it was all fun....






Damn tourists....


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr. Weatherman Bouchard in 2010 on his short boards.  He did finally graduate to some full length ones later in 2010....











Exterminator:






Lower FIS Repeat:






FIS:






Ellen from a different angle:


























All smiles...











Paradise






Spillsville






Ripcord:











OG:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

2011

A special treat...grooming with Bushmogulmaster:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2013)

Yep, that's me:


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## snowmonster (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks for making me look good, TB. Those were fun times at the Bush. Didn't we even have an AZ summit there courtesy of Win Smith? Does he still post here?


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## Anklebiter (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, you got me all fired :flame:up for my trip at the end of March.


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## Anklebiter (Feb 18, 2013)

When is your visit?


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## ScottySkis (Feb 19, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> Thanks for making me look good, TB. Those were fun times at the Bush. Didn't we even have an AZ summit there courtesy of Win Smith? Does he still post here?



I think think Mr. Smith used to post here a lot more a few years ago.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2013)

Going to Sugarbush Friday with some n.VT folk who aren't familiar (faithful to Jay and Smuggs), and I haven't been there since about 2000. 

 Is the Slide Brook area worth the effort (i.e. losing ski time for shuttle wait and drive), and is it fool-proof for someone who doesnt know the area?  I just recently moved to NJ, so according to WCAX my odds of getting lost off-piste have increased by approximately 2,847%.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 3, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Going to Sugarbush Friday with some n.VT folk who aren't familiar (faithful to Jay and Smuggs), and I haven't been there since about 2000.
> 
> Is the Slide Brook area worth the effort (i.e. losing ski time for shuttle wait and drive), and is it fool-proof for someone who doesnt know the area?  I just recently moved to NJ, so according to WCAX my odds of getting lost off-piste have increased by approximately 2,847%.



Have funs times.


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## ski_resort_observer (Mar 3, 2013)

To be honest, not sure if it would be worth the effort. No idea about your expectations. It is not fool proof as far as getting lost but due to the topography and the amount of traffic it gets it there is way less chance of you getting lost than at kmart. Groups of 12 yo's ski/ride it it all the time. Course, they do have a coach with them. You can go to the guest Services desk in Gatehouse and they can give you good info, answer questions about Slide Brook.Personally, a ride on the inter-mountain lift is worth the 15 minutes it takes. Unfortunately it will probably not be spinning on Friday.


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## TheArchitect (Mar 3, 2013)

You know how there are times in life that you realize how much you regret not doing something sooner?  That's what I feel like after getting back from my first visit to SB.  I should have skied there a long, long time ago.  Best 3 days of skiing I can remember.  Great mix of terrain, excellent lift layout and the place just seems to have a 'serious skiers' vibe.  I'm not the strongest bump skier but hit the upper peaks anyway.  The bumps were soft and I managed to respectfully get down Exterminator and Castlerock Run.  I won't say I "skied" them but my bump skills are improving.  I can't wait to get those skills to the point where I spend most of my time on those trails.

I've never ventured off trail before but did this weekend between Looking Good and Lower Rim Run.  Not exactly untracked backcountry but after a small taste of it I can certainly see why people love heading off-trail.  Can't wait to get back to SB.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2013)

ski_resort_observer said:


> *To be honest, not sure if it would be worth the effort.* No idea about your expectations. It is not fool proof as far as getting lost but due to the topography and the amount of traffic it gets it there is way less chance of you getting lost than at kmart. Groups of 12 yo's ski/ride it it all the time. Course, they do have a coach with them. You can go to the guest Services desk in Gatehouse and they can give you good info, answer questions about Slide Brook.Personally, a ride on the inter-mountain lift is worth the 15 minutes it takes. Unfortunately it will probably not be spinning on Friday.



Is it not that great of gladed terrain? 
 Can you compare it to something at Jay Peak (I'm very familiar with all their glades) in terms of how good and/or how long they are?


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## HowieT2 (Mar 3, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it not that great of gladed terrain?
> Can you compare it to something at Jay Peak (I'm very familiar with all their glades) in terms of how good and/or how long they are?



I didnt go into slidebrook this weekend so i cant report on what the conditions are currently.  I did see a loy of people waiting for the bus at the runout.  But ill find out for you.  I would think the lower third is thin and as such you will have to pick your way in spots.  Personally, that would not deter me, but everyone has their own tolerances.

As for whether it is worth the effort.  Let me put it this way.  I love going in there.  The skiing is great, but i dont do it first thing in the morning on a powder day.  You get about a half hour of skiing.  If you time it right and hit the road when the bus gets there, your back at the base or over to mt ellen in 10 minutes.  But the bus runs every half hour, so if you miss it, you are wasting time you could be skiing.  I like to do it when i have the time to enjoy a leisurely powder tree run.  It is beautiful in there, but it depends on the conditions and timing.

You should not go in there without someone who is familiar with the terrain or has some navigational skills.


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## teleo (Mar 3, 2013)

Howie pretty much nailed it. I was in there on sat.  Top was very good.  Slowly required more enery as you got lower.  Mid week snow/weather made for soft snow at lower altitudes that froze and mostly dried out. Run out was firm/fast, but smooth.  No ruts or washboard.  There is enough base.  We just need a good top layer!

Definitely a good idea to have some knowledge of where to turn in to get what you want to ski, and which path to get out.  Seem to be extra yellow markers (likely from last weeks race) that make the exit more confusing than normal.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> You get about a half hour of skiing.*  If you time it right* and hit the road when the bus gets there,* your back at the base or over to mt ellen in 10 minutes.*  But the bus runs every half hour, so if you miss it, you are wasting time you could be skiing.  I like to do it when i have the time to enjoy a leisurely powder tree run.  It is beautiful in there, but it depends on the conditions and timing.



So you can ski it from Ellen to Lincoln as well as Lincoln to Ellen?  I knew people started from the top of the North Lynx Triple, but I didnt know you could take it the other way too.  Though I'll be spending the day on the lincoln side anyway.



HowieT2 said:


> *You should not go in there without someone who is familiar with the terrain* or has some navigational skills.



Well that rules out anyone in my party, as the other are exclusively n.VT skiers and I haven't been there in over a decade.  I'm never afraid to "tailgate" people on woods runs when skiing alone, but a thirty minute tree run is a bit long for that.


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## twinplanx (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Going to Sugarbush Friday with some n.VT folk who aren't familiar (faithful to Jay and Smuggs), and I haven't been there since about 2000.
> 
> Is the Slide Brook area worth the effort (i.e. losing ski time for shuttle wait and drive), and is it fool-proof for someone who doesnt know the area?  I just recently moved to NJ, so according to WCAX my odds of getting lost off-piste have increased by approximately 2,847%.



We will be arriving at da 'bush on Friday, skiing Saturday thru Monday. Looking forward to checking out Slide Brook with some of our group. But make no guarantees as to where we will end up as I've only ventured in there once before...


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

It will be great it is the Bush of all bushes.


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## gostan (Mar 4, 2013)

The couple of inches of new snow Saturday night made all of the difference in The Sunday Slidebrook conditions.  Still a bit  grabby and too thin at bottom.  We need another foot plus of snow in there & with a dry week in the forecast next weekend might not be a good time to venture in there.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

gostan said:


> The couple of inches of new snow Saturday night made all of the difference in The Sunday Slidebrook conditions.  Still a bit  grabby and too thin at bottom.  We need another foot plus of snow in there & with* a dry week in the forecast next weekend might not be a good time to venture in there*.



Not only that, but temps will get into the mid-30s several days this week, with sunny conditions and only a few inches of total new snow in the forecast.  Oh well, perhaps another time for Slide Brook.

 Were any of the glades at Sugarbush in great condition?


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> So you can ski it from Ellen to Lincoln as well as Lincoln to Ellen?  I knew people started from the top of the North Lynx Triple, but I didnt know you could take it the other way too.  Though I'll be spending the day on the lincoln side anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that rules out anyone in my party, as the other are exclusively n.VT skiers and I haven't been there in over a decade.  I'm never afraid to "tailgate" people on woods runs when skiing alone, but a thirty minute tree run is a bit long for that.



You can ski it from mt. ellen but it is more complicated (so as not to end up in a creek) and hence not nearly as commonly done.

I believe the mtn offers guides to take you in there for a run.  not sure what the charge is.  

If you are there saturday, I'll gladly show you the way.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not only that, but temps will get into the mid-30s several days this week, with sunny conditions and only a few inches of total new snow in the forecast.  Oh well, perhaps another time for Slide Brook.
> 
> Were any of the glades at Sugarbush in great condition?



Exterminator, Bravo and Way Back Woods at mt ellen were in excellent shape yesterday.  I would say all of the upper mountain glades are in fine shape, although by the end of the week Paradise might be tracked out.  If you go in there, go far skiers left as the trees adjacent to the trail will definitely be scraped.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> Exterminator, Bravo and Way Back Woods at mt ellen were in excellent shape yesterday.  I would say all of the upper mountain glades are in fine shape, although by the end of the week Paradise might be tracked out.  If you go in there, go far skiers left as the trees adjacent to the trail will definitely be scraped.



Thanks for the info, that's good to hear.  I'm hoping the ones off Lincoln peak stay in decent shape, as the gf is an advanced-beginner to lower intermediate and it would be a good way I could ski trees, but yet ski with her off and on occasionally since there's a good number of blue squares over there.



HowieT2 said:


> If you are there saturday, I'll gladly show you the way.



I'm there Friday or I'd take you up on it.  Saturday is either Jay Peak or Mont Sutton.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2013)

I'd recommend mt. ellen.  first of all, because there is less traffic, the woods will be better.  second, you can do the upper mtn woods and meet your gf on the groomers.  take a look at the trail map and you'll see what I mean.

here's a quick video from yesterday deep in exterminator woods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxaOYIq4LM&list=UU6YNsO3ZIfhsWvyCO46wfTw&index=1


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> *I'd recommend mt. ellen.  first of all, because there is less traffic, the woods will be better.  second, you can do the upper mtn woods and meet your gf on the groomers.*  take a look at the trail map and you'll see what I mean.



That does seem logical, though I really want to ski Middle Earth and Paradise too.  Maybe ski Ellen in the am and then drive to Lincoln after lunch, or is the shuttle more efficient than loading/unloading/parking your car?  Also, how difficult of a path down from the top are Jester and Rim Rum?   She's fine with lower intermediate and average or standard intermediate trails, but I dont want to scare her if it's an intermediate that's pushing diamond status.




HowieT2 said:


> yesterday deep in exterminator woods.



Wow, that's an impressive amount of snow and more than I expected.  Even with some sun and 36 degrees over the next few days, I dont think I have much to worry about.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

Great place it is.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 4, 2013)

Vid?Total gaper couldn't hit the line nice


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> That does seem logical, though I really want to ski Middle Earth and Paradise too.  Maybe ski Ellen in the am and then drive to Lincoln after lunch, or is the shuttle more efficient than loading/unloading/parking your car?  Also, how difficult of a path down from the top are Jester and Rim Rum?   She's fine with lower intermediate and average or standard intermediate trails, but I dont want to scare her if it's an intermediate that's pushing diamond status.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shuttle is definitely the way to go if you want to do both mtns.

Jester and rim run are average blues.


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## twinplanx (Mar 4, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> You can ski it from mt. ellen but it is more complicated (so as not to end up in a creek) and hence not nearly as commonly done.
> 
> I believe the mtn offers guides to take you in there for a run.  not sure what the charge is.
> 
> If you are there saturday, I'll gladly show you the way.



If you're offering free tours I'll do my best to keep up...


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 5, 2013)

Love to take a group out ,but must be a solid skiers  we could use more snow ,shes about half full. Most zones have been pounded out by wknd. Chumpage  you know who you are !! Bring go pros and kind    !trails  skied nice. Wind blown silk


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## HowieT2 (Mar 5, 2013)

Ill do a run Saturday morning.  
pm me and we'll figure out when to meet.

this is second hand info but I was told that the conditions in there are fine.


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## twinplanx (Mar 6, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> Ill do a run Saturday morning.
> pm me and we'll figure out when to meet.
> 
> this is second hand info but I was told that the conditions in there are fine.



Howie, I'm having trouble trying to pm you. It could be a taptalk issue and I will try on the full site when I get a chance. But just in case I believe we will be starting out at 8am, hitting up Superbravo & GMX as those seem to be the early chairs. I wear a red spyder jacket with yellow trim, black pants, dark blue helmet with AZ sticker on back. Hope to hear from ya


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## twinplanx (Mar 6, 2013)

STREETSKIER said:


> Love to take a group out ,but must be a solid skiers  we could use more snow ,shes about half full. Most zones have been pounded out by wknd. Chumpage  you know who you are !! Bring go pros and kind    !trails  skied nice. Wind blown silk



Hmmm. All things being relative, I'd say 3/4 of us are "solid" skiers. But we will need a few warm up runs. Not sure if there is a working gopro in our group, but I'll ask. My job is not 420 friendly but I bet someone could ante up. I can offer Jagerbombs if your so inclined


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## HowieT2 (Mar 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Howie, I'm having trouble trying to pm you. It could be a taptalk issue and I will try on the full site when I get a chance. But just in case I believe we will be starting out at 8am, hitting up Superbravo & GMX as those seem to be the early chairs. I wear a red spyder jacket with yellow trim, black pants, dark blue helmet with AZ sticker on back. Hope to hear from ya



I PMed you.

super bravo and gmx are the 8am chairs but they are at different mountains.  the former is at lincoln peak, the latter at mt. ellen.  you can do one or the other.  not really both.  if you want to do slidebrook, start at lincoln peak with the super bravo.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 6, 2013)

Thanks. I'm all set. Skiing this week has been good soft and still cold up top been warm down low almost Corning at gate house but clouds have persisted  skied home in soft south facing woods north facing still powdery as  i stated earlier pretty beat up in slide ,the traverse across is a bump luge  .warm and sunny fri  so maybe spring turns abound in any case it a blast   Look for me  red pattagucci  white smith helmet  AZ sticker  

(Gopro hero)  dynastar chams,  langes,  leki  ,camo pants !!hestra gloves black diamond avalung, mamut harness  yo


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## twinplanx (Mar 6, 2013)

^cool between you, HowieT2,  WWF-VT and myself we may just have a mini-AZ-pre summit lol


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 8, 2013)

Going on recon today , some sugar snow fell last night about an inch$$$ waiting for the sun and the corn cycle to kick in!!sat-sun going to be peak spring skiing  !! Peel away.


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## twinplanx (Mar 10, 2013)

Peel away indeed. No Jacket Required ;-)


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## ScottySkis (Mar 11, 2013)

Will be finding out more on this great place soon, I am so happy to be getting on my first A Zone trip and to my favorite things in life, skiing at the Bush, will be sick ands awesome times ahead.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 12, 2013)

Raining , has all day, losing lots of sno. Freeze up next!! Ouch   Truth is ,there wasn't alot to begin with, its wArmed up several times!!but the trees will still get hammered  . Last run home through the woods yesterday  it would take the biggest storm yet to get back what we lost ...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2013)

STREETSKIER said:


> *Raining , has all day, losing lots of sno. Freeze up next!! Ouch   Truth is ,there wasn't alot to begin with, its wArmed up several times!!but the trees will still get hammered  .* Last run home through the woods yesterday  it would take the biggest storm yet to get back what we lost ...



How bad are we talking?  Was there on Friday and did Egan's Woods, Eden, Ganstas Grotto, etc... and didnt encounter a single bare spot, conditions were fantastic.


----------



## STREETSKIER (Mar 13, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> How bad are we talking?  Was there on Friday and did Egan's Woods, Eden, Ganstas Grotto, etc... and didnt encounter a single bare spot, conditions were fantastic.


 Ill take a few pics today  I'm going out for a few this afternoon, rained 1" here .hoping it hasn't frozen solid yet!!took dog out and saw groomers on hill at 530  latest talk is next tues possible storm  !! Also all those woods you skied have been down to stumps all season  haven't hit those runs all year  but I'm very fussy I'd rather connect turns on trails then woodpeck. This week should hit 100 days


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 13, 2013)

STREETSKIER said:


> Ill take a few pics today  I'm going out for a few this afternoon, rained 1" here .hoping it hasn't frozen solid yet!!took dog out and saw groomers on hill at 530  latest talk is next tues possible storm  !! Also all those woods you skied have been down to stumps all season  haven't hit those runs all year  but I'm very fussy I'd rather connect turns on trails then woodpeck. This week should hit 100 days



 Maybe we be lucky and get sun next weekend.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 13, 2013)

STREETSKIER said:


> Also* all those woods you skied have been down to stumps all season  haven't hit those runs all year  but I'm very fussy* I'd rather connect turns on trails then woodpeck.



Gosh, I thought they were all in great shape.  Maybe an occasional tree root to go over, but I thought coverage was fine.  Perhaps I hit it during close to the best conditions of the season.

Also, the n.VT people I brought had never skied Sugarbush and loved it.  They live about 50mins to Smuggs and 1 hour to Jay Peak and always ski those two places.  I made it to Sugarbush from their place in less than 1h and 10 mins, whereas GOOG says it's 1h 25 minutes and has scared them away.  They're definitely going to occasionally throw it into their winter rotation now.


----------



## HowieT2 (Mar 13, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Gosh, I thought they were all in great shape.  Maybe an occasional tree root to go over, but I thought coverage was fine.  Perhaps I hit it during close to the best conditions of the season.
> 
> Also, the n.VT people I brought had never skied Sugarbush and loved it.  They live about 50mins to Smuggs and 1 hour to Jay Peak and always ski those two places.  I made it to Sugarbush from their place in less than 1h and 10 mins, whereas GOOG says it's 1h 25 minutes and has scared them away.  They're definitely going to occasionally throw it into their winter rotation now.



I can't speak to those woods in particular because they are lower elevation and I haven't been in them, but prior to this most recent thaw, the upper and mid elevations woods were in great shape, except for the usual headwall steep spots that get skied off.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 13, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> *I can't speak to those woods in particular because they are lower elevation and I haven't been in them, but prior to this most recent thaw, the upper and mid elevations woods were in great shape*, except for the usual headwall steep spots that get skied off.



Looking at the Sugarbush trail map, the only on map "upper elevation" woods at Sugarbush appear to be at Mount Ellen, and we spent the entire day at the big side.  

Will definitely hit Mount Ellen the next time I ski Sugarbush and likely spend the entire day there to see that side as well.  I have skied there once before, but it was 14 years ago an I dont remember anything other than the length of the Slide Brook chair.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 13, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Looking at the Sugarbush trail map, the only on map "upper elevation" woods at Sugarbush appear to be at Mount Ellen, and we spent the entire day at the big side.
> 
> Will definitely hit Mount Ellen the next time I ski Sugarbush and likely spend the entire day there to see that side as well.  I have skied there once before, but it was 14 years ago an I dont remember anything other than the length of the Slide Brook chair.



Map shmap.  upper elevation woods off lincoln peak, castlerock and north lynx are littered with trails.  Pm me next time you are headed up.


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## timm (Mar 13, 2013)

I do like Ellen better though -- less crowded, much more chill.


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## marcski (Mar 13, 2013)

timm said:


> I do like Ellen better though -- less crowded, much more chill.



While this is true, I like the terrain better at Lincoln.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

Big bump.  

I read that the Valley Double is NOT going to be replaced this year because of upgrades to other lifts (see below). That's a bummer.  I also got an update Email from Win in which he outlined some other work:



> As was the case last season, we plan to run the Slide Brook Express every day whenever temperatures are above 5 degrees and when there is sufficient snowpack to allow our lift mechanics to get to the towers quickly and safely.
> 
> This summer we have invested nearly $5 million in capital improvements and most of that has gone into making your mountain experience even better. Over the past five years we have been working on a plan to improve both the capacity and efficiency of our snowmaking system. This summer we are completing the final leg of that plan with the purchase of 351 new low-energy snow guns for both Lincoln Peak and Mt. Ellen, replacing almost all of our older, less efficient snow guns. This will allow us significantly greater snowmaking capacity, especially early season when snowmaking temperatures can be marginal. With low-energy equipment that will be installed almost everywhere, we will use less energy while maximizing the water that can be converted into snow. Not only does this save us money, but it is good for the environment and will improve your experience. We have also completed a number of less visible snowmaking projects over the summer to ensure that our snowmaking system is reliable for years to come. Some of these improvements include: installation of a new and larger-diameter snowmaking pipe on Snowball and Spring Fling; the rebuilding of motors on targeted pumps; the installation of a new flume in the Mad River; and numerous valve repairs. In total, since 2009, we have invested over $5 million in snowmaking improvements at both mountains. This summer, we have invested approximately $1 million over and above normal summer maintenance to upgrade electrical and mechanical systems on the following lifts: Super Bravo, Heaven’s Gate, Gate House, North Ridge and Sunshine Double. Additionally, we are finalizing our permits for expanded parking at Lincoln Peak which will greatly improve our guest experience on the busiest days. We plan to have this new parking lot--located across the Access Road from Lot E--open for the winter season. Our shuttles will carry guests from the new lot to the base area. We have also purchased  a new winch groomer in addition to the two new groomers we added to the fleet last winter. I am also pleased to say that the town of Warren will be repaving the upper part of the Access Road as well as West Hill Road, so your entry to and departure from the mountain will be a lot smoother.
> 
> Season Passes are now available at early season rates through September 10th. Despite some significant increases in our costs, we have only increased our prices modestly. We will also be offering two new passes.



So the Slide Brook now runs 7 days a week weather and conditions permitting?

And though I like the Heaven's Gate earlier opening idea, the upcharge is just dumb IMHO:



> This season we’re also introducing the Early-Ups Add-On.  Fully-paid All Mountain 7 passholders can add this feature to their pass for an additional $500 and be able to load Super Bravo thirty minutes before the public on weekends and holidays. The add-on is limited to the first 500 purchasers and is only valid on Adult, Youth, Child, Senior, Silver Senior, and 90+ All Mountain 7 season passes. We will also plan to open Heaven’s Gate at 8:00 AM for everyone on weekends and holidays, allowing greater early access to the upper mountain and better skier distribution on the busiest days. In past years, Heaven’s Gate has opened at 9:00 AM.



I'd rather pay a bit more on a season pass to get that then to be nickel and dimed personally....


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm stoked.....I heard they going to open the church this year as a triple diamond. Transceiver, probe, shovel, and parachute required


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 19, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Transceiver, probe, shovel, and parachute required




:lol: lmao!


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## WWF-VT (Aug 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Big bump.
> 
> 
> And though I like the Heaven's Gate earlier opening idea, the upcharge is just dumb IMHO:
> ...



I paid $1049 in the spring for my All Mountain 7 pass.  It's crazy to think someone would pay an extra $500 to load the Super Bravo chair 30 minutes early on weekends and holidays!


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## benski (Aug 19, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> I paid $1049 in the spring for my All Mountain 7 pass.  It's crazy to think someone would pay an extra $500 to load the Super Bravo chair 30 minutes early on weekends and holidays!



not such a crazy idea. Especial with all the people pissed about having to buy an overpriced condo to get that privilege. Also without this pass you will not be able to get to heavens gate till about 10 minuets after it opens.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I'm stoked.....I heard they going to open the church this year as a triple diamond. Transceiver, probe, shovel, and parachute required



There will be a special RFID gate on the LT.  Passholders can pay an additional $700 to have an RFID pass to access this area.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> I paid $1049 in the spring for my All Mountain 7 pass.  It's crazy to think someone would pay an extra $500 to load the Super Bravo chair 30 minutes early on weekends and holidays!



$500 is a lot for an extra half-hour of skiing.  Personally I don't think I would...but then again I did most of my skiing (by choice) over at North.  

Not to play a broken record, but I know that a lot of locals were pissed about "special" people getting to ski before the 8:00 opening.  Now I bet they are going to be even more pissed.  Bravo gets skied out so fast as it is.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

benski said:


> not such a crazy idea. Especial with all the people pissed about having to buy an overpriced condo to get that privilege. Also without this pass you will not be able to get to heavens gate till about 10 minuets after it opens.



That's an interesting point.  Now that I think of it, if Bravo and HG open to the public at 8:00am then technically the first ones to get to HG will pretty much always be those who skied from 7:30 on.  So the $500 is really an early pass for both lifts.


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## dlague (Aug 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> $500 is a lot for an extra half-hour of skiing.  Personally I don't think I would...but then again I did most of my skiing (by choice) over at North.
> 
> Not to play a broken record, but I know that a lot of locals were pissed about "special" people getting to ski before the 8:00 opening.  Now I bet they are going to be even more pissed.  Bravo gets skied out so fast as it is.



I would never consider paying 50% more to get the extra 30 minutes.  I feel they are holding pass holders ransom!


.......


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

dlague said:


> I would never consider paying 50% more to get the extra 30 minutes.  I feel they are holding pass holders ransom!
> 
> 
> .......



I was taken aback by the price.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 19, 2014)

dlague said:


> I would never consider paying 50% more to get the extra 30 minutes.  I feel they are holding pass holders ransom!
> 
> 
> .......



That is something Stowe would do. This is very disappointing


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That is something Stowe would do. This is very disappointing



+1


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Aug 19, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That is something Stowe would do. This is very disappointing


Why do you say that. The Forerunner opens at 7:30 we/hol to everyone. They don't nickel & dime. You do have to pay to play though. What Sugarbush & others are doing is nickel & diming. Stowe don't play that.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 19, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Why do you say that. The Forerunner opens at 7:30 we/hol to everyone. They don't nickel & dime. You do have to pay to play though. What Sugarbush & others are doing is nickel & diming. Stowe don't plat that.



That's true. They just build it into the price so everyone pays and no one gets special privileges lol


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## HowieT2 (Aug 20, 2014)

Haven't completely thought this through, but not feeling that $500 is worth it.  I am in the target audience for this as I'm booting up for a powder day before 7:30 anyway.  But how many powder days are there on weekends/holidays?  From my experience, around 5 a season.  So that's $100 a day.  For $75 I can do the cat at 6:30.  That's worth it.
more thoughts later, but gotta run


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## steamboat1 (Oct 13, 2014)

More real estate development.

http://www.sugarbush.com/content/resort-news.asp?pid=25&id=2176


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## canobie#1 (Oct 13, 2014)

They should add more shops and restaurants.  Not too much over there.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> They should add more shops and restaurants.  Not too much over there.



+ 1


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## gostan (Oct 14, 2014)

The original approved site plan did include some retail and restaurant space, but it appears that they are changing the type and order of construction.  I am sure that there will be a new retail/restaurant component, but when is the question. The entire 93 unit project is definitely a long term project.  I understand that Win did state that 25% of the EB5 investors have been paid from Rice Brook proceeds.


http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2...l - Phase 2 Subdivision Survey 2012_09_06.pdf


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I don't disagree, but there are shops and restaurants in sugarbush village, which this development will tie into the base area.  As it stood before, there was a barren decrepit parking lot between the two. Not only does the development include residences, but also a new ski bridge and regrading that will make it much more palatable to grab a bite in the village for lunch or head there for apres. the existing restaurants, Chez henri and pine tree pub, in the Sb village need some love, and the increased traffic should facilitate that.  dont get me wrong, I love chez henri, but its dated.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 14, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> dont get me wrong, I love chez henri, but its dated.



The food and staff are still top-notch.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

ThinkSnow said:


> The food and staff are still top-notch.



no doubt.  I just dont see a lot of enthusiasm amongst my crew and guests to go for french food for lunch, apres or dinner.  we eat there once every couple of years.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 14, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't disagree, but there are shops and restaurants in sugarbush village, which this development will tie into the base area.  As it stood before, there was a barren decrepit parking lot between the two. Not only does the development include residences, but also a new ski bridge and regrading that will make it much more palatable to grab a bite in the village for lunch or head there for apres. the existing restaurants, Chez henri and pine tree pub, in the Sb village need some love, and the increased traffic should facilitate that.  dont get me wrong, I love chez henri, but its dated.



I agree that this will help.  In all the years I skied at Sugarbush I NEVER ventured over to that village.  I drove through it during the offseason once and was surprised by how much is there, but I never did anything other than that because of said parking lot.


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## dlague (Oct 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree that this will help.  In all the years I skied at Sugarbush I NEVER ventured over to that village.  I drove through it during the offseason once and was surprised by how much is there, but I never did anything other than that because of said parking lot.



The pub definitely needs an over haul.  However it does have an old school feel.


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## mrvpilgrim (Oct 14, 2014)

One interesting note from Saturdays Community Day talk
It is not anything currently on any sort of construction schedule but they are looking into the possibility of a new lodge at the top of the gate house chair


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## Smellytele (Oct 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree that this will help.  In all the years I skied at Sugarbush I NEVER ventured over to that village.  I drove through it during the offseason once and was surprised by how much is there, but I never did anything other than that because of said parking lot.



I have skied there a dozen times and never even new it existed either. I have even stayed at condos up past there and had no clue it was there.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

dlague said:


> The pub definitely needs an over haul.  However it does have an old school feel.



old school as in the downstairs smells like the bar in my college fraternity


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I have skied there a dozen times and never even new it existed either. I have even stayed at condos up past there and had no clue it was there.



exactly.  The underlying issue, is that Sugarbush Resort does not own Sugarbush Village.  That being said, with the new development, the gap between the two will be bridged, literally and figuratively.  The Out to Lunch trail goes right by the village on its way back to the base, so there is no reason it shouldnt be an option for lunch or apres.  As it stands, there are chez henri (french), PT pub (sports bar with room for live bands), pizza (takeout), Mutha Stuffers (subs), sugarbush day care, mountainside ski shop.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree that this will help.  In all the years I skied at Sugarbush I NEVER ventured over to that village.  I drove through it during the offseason once and was surprised by how much is there, but I never did anything other than that because of said parking lot.


Pretty much the same. I only drove up there once in the off season years ago. Don't think this will change much for me since I have no intention of buying a residence up there. Screwed up years ago when I could've picked up a condo dirt cheap. I think this was just before ASC bought the place. If not for ASC lot's of people thought Sugarbush would close.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 14, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Pretty much the same. I only drove up there once in the off season years ago. Don't think this will change much for me since I have no intention of buying a residense up there. Screwed up years ago when I could've picked up a condo dirt cheap. I think this was just before ASC bought the place. If not for ASC lot's of people thought Sugarbush would close.



ASC and Les Otten owned Sugarbush from 1995-2001. ASC spent a bunch of money then neglected Sugarbush when they couldn't go forward with their development plans and the ultimate ASC financial meltdown. Win Smith / Summit Ventures bought Sugarbush in 2001 and that's what brought the mountain back from the edge.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> ASC and Les Otten owned Sugarbush from 1995-2001.  ASC spent a bunch of money then neglected Sugarbush when they couldn't go forward with their development plans and ASC the financial meltdown.  Win Smith / Summit Ventures bought Sugarbush in 2001 and that's what brought the mountain back from the edge.


Yes but before ASC bought the place it was widely rumored Sugarbush was closing as in not opening at all. You could pick up a condo for under $10 grand back then. Win has done a lot of good things with the place but I don't think there was ever a threat of Sugarbush closing when ASC had it. In fact most of the improvements you see to this day at Lincoln are from new lifts that ASC installed. I think the only new lifts Win installed is the Green Mountain Express at Ellen & replacing the Castle Rock chair at Lincoln. I really don't care much about new residences & a base lodge. In fact the new base lodge wasn't much of an improvement.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes but before ASC bought the place it was widely rumored Sugarbush was closing as in not opening at all. You could pick up a condo for under $10 grand back then. Win has done a lot of good things with the place but I don't think there was ever a threat of Sugarbush closing when ASC had it. In fact most of the improvements you see to this day at Lincoln are from new lifts that ASC installed. I think the only new lifts Win installed is the Green Mountain Express at Ellen & replacing the Castle Rock chair at Lincoln. I really don't care much about new residences & a base lodge. In fact the new base lodge wasn't much of an improvement.



with all due respect, you dont know what you're talking about.  the new gatehouse lodge, timbers restaurant and claybrook were huge improvements, not to mention the farmhouse and schoolhouse buildings.  you may not care about lodges and real estate, but it is the profits from those which pay for new lifts and capital investment in the snowmaking system, which I assume, you do care about.
As for ASC, after they invested all that money in the new lifts, there development plans were scuttled by the community and they orphaned the mtn.  No marketing, no maintenance.  the place would have gone under, if win and company (or someone else) hadnt taken it over.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> with all due respect, you dont know what you're talking about.  the new gatehouse lodge, timbers restaurant and claybrook were huge improvements, not to mention the farmhouse and schoolhouse buildings.  you may not care about lodges and real estate, but it is the profits from those which pay for new lifts and capital investment in the snowmaking system, which I assume, you do care about.


Which new lifts? As I stated most of those were installed by ASC. As for snowmaking it was ASC that constructed the 63 million gallon water pond for snowmaking, not Win. I don't see much in improvements to the mountain since Win took over. If the new residences are so profitable where is all that money going? The only thing I see is construction of more new residences & that's with EB-5 money not profits.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 14, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Which new lifts? As I stated most of those were installed by ASC. As for snowmaking it was ASC that constructed the 63 million gallon water pond for snowmaking, not Win. I don't see much in improvements to the mountain since Win took over. If the new residences are so profitable where is all that money going? The only thing I see is construction of more new residences & that's with EB-5 money not profits.


Then you're not paying attention.  

True, the only new lifts since Win arrived are the new GMX and the CR double replacement.  But in addition to those, Win has invested in the Gate House Lodge, Farm House and School House, none of which have any residential real estate component but are instead focused purely on skier services.  

In addition, there have been pretty extensive upgrades to the snowmaking infrastructure.  Certainly not enough for my preference, but arguably well above depreciation.  This has included 100% turnover in their snow guns, re-digging the snowmaking pond after it got nearly destroyed in a hurricane, a new main feeder pipe from said pond to LP, and a whole host of less glamorous stuff (pipes, valves, pumps) that are critically important but which don't have sex appeal.  

And while perceptions of it being an improvement or not will vary widely, they have presided over the largest expansion of on-map tree terrain in SB's history.  

Next year, assuming no hiccups from the economy or the permitting process, their 3rd lift will be installed in the form of the replacement for the Valley House double.  Moreover, a gander at their long-term forest management plan with the USFS makes for interesting reading with potential new lifts, new trail pods and new on-mountain lodges.  

I think most SB fans would like to see more progress on the on-mountain stuff, but then again most of us were not privy to the degree of deferred maintenance Win inherited.  Moreover, SB had neither a modern base lodge nor viable skier services and ski school facilities.  Even the capital legacy from ASC was a double edged sword.  Sure they got to enjoy the major investments ASC made in upgrading LP's snowmkaing and lift infrastructure, but most of that snowmaking pipe was bunk and has had to be replaced.  Furthermore, when you consider that SB had exactly zero pillows it controlled at the base - very much of an anomaly in today's resort environment - it's not hard to see where and why they've prioritized their investment dollars.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Which new lifts? As I stated most of those were installed by ASC. As for snowmaking it was ASC that constructed the 63 million gallon water pond for snowmaking, not Win. I don't see much in improvements to the mountain since Win took over. If the new residences are so profitable where is all that money going? The only thing I see is construction of more new residences & that's with EB-5 money not profits.



you do realize that when Win took over, the ski school and rentals didnt even have buildings. yes, that's right, they were housed in rented temporary structures. the old gatehouse was awful.  the snowmaking system, pipes, pumps, etc. inherited from ASC was garbage.  They literally had to replace all the pipe from the pond to the base.
 and if you want to get technical, in addition to the GMX they replaced the northridge double with the current NRX hsq (which was the old green mountain lift).  
I've been going regularly for about a decade and when I started the infrastructure was a disaster.  definitely, not up to par.  You can't say that now.  It is a legitimate 4 season resort, such that people are willing to plunk down 600-800k for a 3 bedrooms at the base.  

and when youre talking about all the development, we are not talking about building on the scale of what has gone on at Jay or Stowe.  this most recently announced phase of the project is all of 15 units.  So I dont think they are swimming in profits not being reinvested.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, ASC does get credit for a lot of good things....in 1995.  But they ran out of money and interest to complete the deal and to do things "right".  

I know that Win would tell you ALL the things that he had to fix with his $$$ when ASC left Dodge in 2001.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, ASC does get credit for a lot of good things....in 1995.  But they ran out of money and interest to complete the deal and to do things "right".
> 
> I know that Win would tell you ALL the things that he had to fix with his $$$ when ASC left Dodge in 2001.



they were losing money hand over fist when they took over from ASC. 

bottom line is, I dont agree with everything they chose to do, but to say they haven't made vast improvements since taking over from ASC, is just nonsensical.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 14, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> they were losing money hand over fist when they took over from ASC.
> 
> bottom line is, I dont agree with everything they chose to do, but to say they haven't made vast improvements since taking over from ASC, is just nonsensical.



I agree with you on both points.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> they were losing money hand over fist when they took over from ASC.
> 
> bottom line is, I dont agree with everything they chose to do, but to say they haven't made vast improvements since taking over from ASC, is just nonsensical.


Yeah the lift maintenance issues were well documented last year.

Still can't find a seat to eat lunch in Gatehouse on a Saturday afternoon.

Vast improvements.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 15, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah the lift maintenance issues were well documented last year.
> 
> Still can't find a seat to eat lunch in Gatehouse on a Saturday afternoon.
> 
> Vast improvements.


Peak lunch seating is definitely still an issue, though of course you could choose to sit at Valley House and have most of the place to yourself.  That said, I'm not sure why you continue to discount all of the real, tangible and important upgrades this ownership group has made, preferring to focus instead on why you can't find a seat at the most crowded time on the most corwded day in the most crowded structure at the mountain.  

Given your other "contributions" here, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Smellytele (Oct 15, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Peak lunch seating is definitely still an issue, though of course you could choose to sit at Valley House and have most of the place to yourself.  That said, I'm not sure why you continue to discount all of the real, tangible and important upgrades this ownership group has made, preferring to focus instead on why you can't find a seat at the most crowded time on the most corwded day in the most crowded structure at the mountain.
> 
> Given your other "contributions" here, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.



What were the upgrades besides the non skiing ones?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> What were the upgrades besides the non skiing ones?



They've done a lot of deferred maintenance and repair work due to lack of maintenance.  A lot of it is invisible.  Snowmaking has been a big thing....they've had to keep it going.  Now we are hearing about the lifts.  So yes a lot of "un-sexy" things.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> What were the upgrades besides the non skiing ones?


Not much after owning the place for over a decade. Any deferred maintenance issues or lack of snowmaking improvements sit's squarely on the back of present ownership. We're not still going to blame ASC are we? Don't get me wrong I love Sugarbush but that has more to do with it's natural attributes than anything Win has done.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 15, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Peak lunch seating is definitely still an issue


Didn't need to be. The new lodge, while attractive, was very poorly designed. Why spend all that money only to still have the same issue you had before?


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## Big Game (Oct 15, 2014)

If I was in charge, the lifts chairs would all be super models we could ride, the mountains would be covered in pure cocaine, and I'd forget that I actually hate winter.


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## benski (Oct 15, 2014)

I don't believe the gate house is not big enough because on weekends there is so many extra seats in the valley house that if both lodges were equally crowded there would be plenty of room in the gate house. The real problem is the valley houses reputation for cold, low quality versions of gate house food has led to a situation were almost everybody who has a choice goes to the gate house.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 15, 2014)

benski said:


> I don't believe the gate house is not big enough because on weekends there is so many extra seats in the valley house that if both lodges were equally crowded there would be plenty of room in the gate house. The real problem is the valley houses reputation for cold, low quality versions of gate house food has led to a situation were almost everybody who has a choice goes to the gate house.


LOL....the Gatehouse cafeteria isn't exactly known for good food. I'd say it's reputation is quite the opposite.


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## benski (Oct 15, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> LOL....the Gatehouse cafeteria isn't exactly known for good food. I'd say it's reputation is quite the opposite.



I think you are thinking of the valley house.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 15, 2014)

benski said:


> I think you are thinking of the valley house.


No, the food sucks in Gatehouse too. Luckily when I ski with my employee friend the food is 1/2 price.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2014)

Jesus Christ Steamboat1, get over it.   You crap troll logs all over Sugarbush every chance you can get, yet you bury your nose into Killington's ball hair to your heart's content and it makes absolutely no sense.

So, on mountain improvements since 2000.  

Lifts - Advantage  Sugarbush - they've put in two new lifts to Killington's 1.  In fact, Killington took out a lift.  So, call it 2 - 0.   After next season it may very well be 3 to 0 with the new Valley House lift. 

Snowmaking - both places have had to deal with ASC neglect.  Sugarbush never had much of a system to begin with, but Killington at least had the best foundation of a system in the east installed by Pres Smith.   Given where they've both come from and where they stand today, I'd call it a tie.  Killington is as good as they've always been and Sugarbush is better than they've ever.  

Day lodge seating - crap on Gatehouse all you want, but there are more seats in there than the new Peak Lodge.  You've also got Timbers Restaurant and Castlerock pub, though I will admit I'm not a huge fan of CRP.  Killington lost the entire  Mahogany Ridge bar area.  The U-bars are nice when there is good weather, but it doesn't make for getting a seat in the KBL easier during much of the season.   So, effectively, Sugarbush has expanded their dining options more than Killington.   And  the food at the Gatehouse is far and away better in quality and price than that at KBL and pretty much all of Killington's base lodges, so don't waste your time and go there. 

As has been mentioned, Sugarbush has added numerous skier services buildings to improve that part of the experience.  And K has added what in this area?

As a side note, why do you even care about getting a seat for lunch on busy weekends and holidays?   You're the dude who brags of being retired all the time and only skiing midweek.  

Moving on.  Sugarbush has started a modest lodging village for themselves.  Slowly but surely adding lodging and services year by year.  The Killington Village has been talked about for decades and there are still only hard hats on the crickets.    All one needs to do is look at the overall Real Estate picture in the two areas to see which area has improved, and which has not.  Which place has seen a better appreciation in RE values over the last ten years?  Hint: not Killington.

So, when you take a look at the big picture here, what area has done more for itself during the past fourteen years?  Sugarbush and it's really not even close.

And all this done by a modest multi-millionaire working diligently to make his mountain and community better where as Killington has a Forbes 400 Billionaire backing it.    Sugarbush is a family owned and operated ski resort.  Name another family owned and operated ski resort in New England who has done as much as Win has.......I'm all ears. 

So, yeah, please, for all of us.  You can shut up now about your issues with Sugarbush.  Here are all the people who care:








ooops......forget the K stairwell.  Add a couple of tenths of a point to K's score for that.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 15, 2014)

+1 DHS

maybe if ole smokeyboat1 didn't burn so many cigs down that his taste buds were toast he'd recognize that the food was light years better than the offerings at Killingtons lodges. 

and for the record I love both places.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Jesus Christ Steamboat1, get over it.   You crap troll logs all over Sugarbush every chance you can get, yet you bury your nose into Killington's ball hair to your heart's content and it makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> So, on mountain improvements since 2000.
> 
> ...



well said.  
And honestly, I never have trouble getting a seat for lunch in the gatehouse on Saturdays, but then again, I eat at 11:30, so I can be back out at noon.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 16, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Jesus Christ Steamboat1, get over it.   You crap troll logs all over Sugarbush every chance you can get, yet you bury your nose into Killington's ball hair to your heart's content and it makes absolutely no sense.
> I've been critical of K also. You can lick my balls
> So, on mountain improvements since 2000.
> 
> ...


​Really couldn't give a rats ass what you think either.


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## stephan.tyler11 (Oct 16, 2014)

Agree! Hopefully they add some of those because it's really important for most people, specially after long hour of gliding, of course you also want to eat delicious foods.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2014)

K blows Sugarbush away.  Thanks for the morning laugh.  Why don't you do the Sugarbush skiers a favor and keep your troll ass down at Killington.  I'm sure they've got zero interest in rubbing elbows in the lodge with a grumpy old man like yourself.  I know I wouldn't.


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## gostan (Oct 16, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> well said.
> And honestly, I never have trouble getting a seat for lunch in the gatehouse on Saturdays, but then again, I eat at 11:30, so I can be back out at noon.


 On the mountain early in the morning and early to lunch makes the busy Saturday's much easier to deal with.

to compare Killington and Sugarbush is simply ridiculous.  It is like comparing NYC with Boston.  Personally, I would prefer to ski Boston .....I mean Sugarbush any weekend.  Killington on a weekend is simply a zoo.  always has been and always will be.


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## Smellytele (Oct 16, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> ​Really couldn't give a rats ass what you think either.



Then why respond with a "I know you are but what am I" response? Might as well just respond with a typical K skier response of "Idiot" or "moron".
I as well love skiing at both places - not that you care.


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## Newpylong (Oct 16, 2014)

To each his own but I would give a nut to be able to ski Sugarbush everyday. I do like Killington a lot and since i only live an hour away I am there often. But the Bush is a special place that is tough to beat.

Comparing aside, ASC actually left Sugarbush with an amazing snowmaking system. Lincoln had very little snowmaking prior to '94. Otten put in the pond and covered nearly every trail with pipe outside of Castle rock. They have had to do very little outside of new guns and limited pipe replacement.

ASC made one stupid decision with the Slug and GMX but other than that the Bush faired well compared to their other "ventures." Killington had a more uphill battle out of the ASC doldrums and has made substantial investments.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Then why respond with a "I know you are but what am I" response? Might as well just respond with a typical K skier response of "Idiot" or "moron".
> I as well love skiing at both places - not that you care.



He didn't have a problem going there when the lift ticket was 7.50. Cheap old man.


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## dlague (Oct 16, 2014)

Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints.  Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period.  I think that sucks!

The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..

Can't we all just get along?


.......


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## Smellytele (Oct 16, 2014)

dlague said:


> Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints.  Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period.  I think that sucks!
> 
> The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..
> 
> ...



Rainbows and unicorns!  please let it snow soon or at least have some snow making soon.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 16, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> He didn't have a problem going there when the lift ticket was 7.50. Cheap old man.


Ticket was $6.50, $7.50 would have been over the top.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 16, 2014)

dlague said:


> Too much resort hating going on I enjoy Sugarbush and never seem to have any issues there and have no complaints.  Obviously we are in a skiing society that expects visible change or change period.  I think that sucks!
> 
> The whole Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, Stowe, Olemo, Sugarloaf battles that take place in these threads are ridiculous - each resort has there own character, lines, terrain, etc..
> 
> ...



In 10 years here and on our sister site, SkiMRV.com this is typical for the Sugarbush thread.  I see some things don't change.  Nothing wrong with a good debate.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> What were the upgrades besides the non skiing ones?





steamboat1 said:


> Not much after owning the place for over a decade. Any deferred maintenance issues or lack of snowmaking improvements sit's squarely on the back of present ownership. We're not still going to blame ASC are we? Don't get me wrong I love Sugarbush but that has more to do with it's natural attributes than anything Win has done.


Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread.  I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"? 



steamboat1 said:


> Didn't need to be. The new lodge, while attractive, was very poorly designed. Why spend all that money only to still have the same issue you had before?


On this, we are COMPLETELY aligned.   You CANNOT argue that they haven't invested in on-mountain improvements.  Given the size of their skier visits, they inarguably have, and have done so in a sustainable manner at a resort that habitually lost money and previously went through new ownership groups like I go through toilet paper.  

You can, however, ABSOLUTELY take issue with how effectively they've spent that money.  I was never a fan of the new GH lodge layout and it was obvious it would be inadequate from the moment it opened.


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## Smellytele (Oct 16, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread.  I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"?



I do consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings as non-skiing. While snowmaking is skiing related but from what others said in this thread is that snowmaking infrastructure was just repaired not really new. So I was just wondering if any new lifts, trails or glades were added.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 16, 2014)

Originally Posted by *deadheadskier* 


_

Lifts - Advantage Sugarbush - they've put in two new lifts to Killington's 1. In fact, Killington took out a lift. So, call it 2 - 0. After next season it may very well be 3 to 0 with the new Valley House lift. 
K may very well add two lifts next year (South Ridge & Snowdon)

*And unicorns may very well come flying out of my rear end too.  SB has commenced the permitting process and is already spending money on design work.  Where's K on that front? 
*

Snowmaking - both places have had to deal with ASC neglect. Sugarbush never had much of a system to begin with, but Killington at least had the best foundation of a system in the east installed by Pres Smith. Given where they've both come from and where they stand today, I'd call it a tie. Killington is as good as they've always been and Sugarbush is better than they've ever. 
How many new guns did Sugarbush buy this year? Killington 400

*The answer to that would be 351, for a resort with half the terrain and half the skier visits as Killington.  Thanks for playing.*

Day lodge seating - crap on Gatehouse all you want, but there are more seats in there than the new Peak Lodge. You've also got Timbers Restaurant and Castlerock pub, though I will admit I'm not a huge fan of CRP. Killington lost the entire Mahogany Ridge bar area. The U-bars are nice when there is good weather, but it doesn't make for getting a seat in the KBL easier during much of the season. So, effectively, Sugarbush has expanded their dining options more than Killington. And the food at the Gatehouse is far and away better in quality and price than that at KBL and pretty much all of Killington's base lodges, so don't waste your time and go there. 
Guess you forgot about Snowshed, Ramshead, Bear, & Skyeship base lodges. Not to mention the Sunrise Cafe, Yurt & Anna's Panata all which serve food on mountain. And yes the daily special in KBL can be quite good. Peak Lodge even better

*LOLZ.  I wasn't aware that POWDR had made the investments to construct those lodges.  I guess I must have been tripping on acid with all my memories of eating at those same locations in the 30 plus years I've skied at K.  *

As has been mentioned, Sugarbush has added numerous skier services buildings to improve that part of the experience. And K has added what in this area?
See the 5 base areas mentioned above.

*See above indeed.*

As a side note, why do you even care about getting a seat for lunch on busy weekends and holidays? You're the dude who brags of being retired all the time and only skiing midweek. 
Sorry that makes you jealous. Maybe someday you'll get there too. I have my doubt's though.

*Wow - in the annals of pathetic, passive-aggressive responses, this takes the cake.  Given how you've acquitted yourself on this site and others, there isn't much in your life to be jealous of.  You can't take the money with you, but your idiocy lives on for the ages.  Congratulations on such an important legacy.*

Moving on. Sugarbush has started a modest lodging village for themselves. Slowly but surely adding lodging and services year by year. The Killington Village has been talked about for decades and there are still only hard hats on the crickets. All one needs to do is look at the overall Real Estate picture in the two areas to see which area has improved, and which has not. Which place has seen a better appreciation in RE values over the last ten years? Hint: not Killington.
You can't even compare the availability of lodging between the two. What has Sugarbush added? Private residences. That does the average Joe Blow absolutely no good

*And what "average Joe" accommodations has K built?  Do tell.  We'll wait while you finish your research.  Were you expecting public residences, whatever that may be?  For the record, every single unit SB has built gets thrown into the master rental pool when not being used - these aren't single family McMansions that lie empty 90% of the year.*


And all this done by a modest multi-millionaire working diligently to make his mountain and community better where as Killington has a Forbes 400 Billionaire backing it. Sugarbush is a family owned and operated ski resort. Name another family owned and operated ski resort in New England who has done as much as Win has.......I'm all ears. 
With EB-5 money

*EB-5 money has been part of the capital structure but the vast majority of investment has come out of Win's pocket. Even so, for the EB-5 program, so long as they are following the law, and doing right by their investors, why should you care?  On a capital $/skier visits basis, SB has invested so much more over the last decade it's not even funny.*

So, yeah, please, for all of us. You can shut up now about your issues with Sugarbush. Here are all the people who care:







ooops......forget the K stairwell. Add a couple of tenths of a point to K's score for that._


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## HowieT2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Neither of you are apparently reading closely in this thread.  I guess you consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings and new snowmaking infrastructure as "non-skiing"?
> 
> 
> On this, we are COMPLETELY aligned.   You CANNOT argue that they haven't invested in on-mountain improvements.  Given the size of their skier visits, they inarguably have, and have done so in a sustainable manner at a resort that habitually lost money and previously went through new ownership groups like I go through toilet paper.
> ...



I think the GH lodge was built when the plan was to build another skier services building with additional cafeteria/bar space.  That plan changed aftre the gatehouse was finished, and the schoolhouse and farmhouse were built instead, without any additional cafeteria/bar space.  so the problem may not have been with the design of the gatehouse, but the subsequent failure to add more capacity.  either way, while it needs to be addressed, having too much demand is a good problem to have.  and really its only an issue at peak lunch hour on saturdays.  they do need more bar space too.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 16, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> I think the GH lodge was built when the plan was to build another skier services building with additional cafeteria/bar space.  That plan changed aftre the gatehouse was finished, and the schoolhouse and farmhouse were built instead, without any additional cafeteria/bar space.  so the problem may not have been with the design of the gatehouse, but the subsequent failure to add more capacity.  either way, while it needs to be addressed, having too much demand is a good problem to have.  and really its only an issue at peak lunch hour on saturdays.  they do need more bar space too.



Yup.  Hard to know what the driver was, though I will note that at the time GH lodge was built, the plan to to also tear down VH lodge and bring the base of a new VH chair down to the base (I still have the renderings!).  As such, they are at least guilty of some poor planning for the transition period, if not beyond.  The only reason they can come close to accommodating the peak crowds they have today, even with the VH lodge remaining open, is b/c they've had to make extensive follow-on investments in GH to shoehorn more people into the CR Pub and those side rooms on the main level.  The insistence on individual seats (likely to facilitate off-season events) was also off-base - bench seats accommodate more people.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I do consider new base lodges, new ski schools, new skier svcs buildings as non-skiing. While snowmaking is skiing related but from what others said in this thread is that snowmaking infrastructure was just repaired not really new. So I was just wondering if any new lifts, trails or glades were added.


Wow.  Tough crowd.  So if I get this straight, you think ski areas should involve only a parking lot, lifts and trails?  Whatever the case, suffice to say your POV is in the minority.

Regardless, new lifts:

 - CR double
 - Green Mtn Express quad
 - Valley House quad (for 2015-2016) in planning/permitting

New snowmaking:

 - Entirely new fleet of snowmaking guns, with 351 new guns this year alone (over and above several hundred in the last five years)
 - New main feeder pipe from snowmaking pond
 - Unexpected re-digging of snowmaking pond after Irene destroyed it
 - New valves, pipes and pumps all over the mtn

New terrain
 - Over 100 acres of new gladed terrain at Mt Ellen
 - Some acreage expansion of glades at LP, but not sure of the amount

Worth noting that the majority of their terrain is on USFS land - actually pretty rare for New England ski areas and makes on-mtn expansion all the more onerous.


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## Smellytele (Oct 16, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Wow.  Tough crowd.  So if I get this straight, you think ski areas should involve only a parking lot, lifts and trails?  Whatever the case, suffice to say your POV is in the minority.
> 
> Regardless, new lifts:
> 
> ...



Thanks I was just wondering as I didn't know what was added and before I originally asked it was just angry people being angry without facts


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Thanks I was just wondering as I didn't know what was added and before I originally asked it was just angry people being angry without facts



Ha.  Yeah, there's a lot of that around here.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 17, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> they do need more bar space too.



Who designed the bar anyway?  There could actually be much more space in that room if the bar ran flat along the entire back wall (by the kitchen window) instead of taking up a third of the space as it now does.  Just gotta leave a gap for waitresses/food service.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 17, 2014)

So the BIG question is when will Sugarbush open this season?  Weekend before Thanksgiving?  Later?


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## slatham (Oct 17, 2014)

Regardless of the date - its obviously rather weather dependent - I predict they will be more aggressive in getting open than in the past. just a feeling.....


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## chuckstah (Oct 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So the BIG question is when will Sugarbush open this season?  Weekend before Thanksgiving?  Later?



I received an email today saying it is less than 35 days til opening, so probably Friday, November 21st or so.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 17, 2014)

slatham said:


> Regardless of the date - its obviously rather weather dependent - I predict they will be more aggressive in getting open than in the past. just a feeling.....



Agree on the weather.  Why do you think they will be more aggressive?  My last two seasons there they said weekend before Thanksgiving, then because (in part) of weather they did not open until MUCH later.


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## Smellytele (Oct 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree on the weather.  Why do you think they will be more aggressive?  My last two seasons there they said weekend before Thanksgiving, then because (in part) of weather they did not open until MUCH later.



Last year which was good early season I think they opened the weekend before Thanksgiving


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## HowieT2 (Oct 17, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Last year which was good early season I think they opened the weekend before Thanksgiving



they have been pretty consistent in getting open the weekend before the thanksgiving over the last decade.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 17, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> they have been pretty consistent in getting open the weekend before the thanksgiving over the last decade.



I guess if we go back that far, sure.  I just recall them having a lot of issues in 2009 and 2010 that we have gnawed on in here....yes it was weather but it also was that they just did not have the capacity to open quickly so some windows that they COULD have opened they didn't.  And IIRC the 2009 or 2010 season was particularly painful waiting.....


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## HowieT2 (Oct 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess if we go back that far, sure.  I just recall them having a lot of issues in 2009 and 2010 that we have gnawed on in here....yes it was weather but it also was that they just did not have the capacity to open quickly so some windows that they COULD have opened they didn't.  And IIRC the 2009 or 2010 season was particularly painful waiting.....



you might be right, but I think it was more what they had open to start the season, than whether they opened at all.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess if we go back that far, sure.  I just recall them having a lot of issues in 2009 and 2010 that we have gnawed on in here....yes it was weather but it also was that they just did not have the capacity to open quickly so some windows that they COULD have opened they didn't.  And IIRC the 2009 or 2010 season was particularly painful waiting.....


Wouldn't be surprised if they are a little more aggressive this year, if only b/c they now have that much more firepower to deploy and exploit within those shorter, early-season snowmaking windows.

That said, no danger of SB making a run at some sort of early-season title.  With a focus on LP and not the much better snow retaining topography at Mt Ellen, that's just not gonna happen.  Might move the needle by a few days or a week at most so as to ensure they are open with something attractive at the same time as all of their primary competitors.


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## Tin (Oct 17, 2014)

I would love to see them make a run by blowing on the North Lynx area. Just Sunrise and Birch, looks like over 700' of vertical off it. I would take that over the Ridge Area at K or Punch/T2 at the river.


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## Quietman (Oct 17, 2014)

Tin said:


> I would love to see them make a run by blowing on the North Lynx area. Just Sunrise and Birch, looks like over 700' of vertical off it. I would take that over the Ridge Area at K or Punch/T2 at the river.



Unfortunately, the Lynx area faces southeast which could be a problem on sunny Oct/Nov days.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Snowmaking will be sub-par as usual. Pray for snow.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 17, 2014)

steamboat1 will continue to troll per usual


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## steamboat1 (Oct 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> steamboat1 will continue to troll per usual


And you'll continue to be an ass. A fat ass at that.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 18, 2014)

:lol:

wow

keep the hits coming old man.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 18, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> :lol:
> 
> wow
> 
> keep the hits coming old man.


The beat goes on. Ladi, ladi lee. ladi ladi ya


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## shadyjay (Oct 18, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Snowmaking will be sub-par as usual. Pray for snow.



As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.  

Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.  

After doing some nice fall hiking, I've seen the investment of the new guns up close:  they are lining more trails than ever before, replacing some older models.  For instance, Snowball, Downspout, Ripcord, and Slowpoke all have new towers.  Slowpoke has never had towers before, so this will be substantial.  It will reduce set-up time for us so we can make snow quicker and transfer between trails quicker.

Who knows what the season will hold.  If it's a good snow year, the snowmaking debate will be put on hold until next fall.  If it isn't, the responsibility will come down on us to do what we can and pick up the slack.


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## dlague (Oct 18, 2014)

I have skied SB probably a dozen times and never had issue.  Then again SB is not an early season play for me.  We generally ski there around early February.


.......


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## Newpylong (Oct 18, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.
> 
> ...



Don't take offense anyone who's skied there knows you guys do a great job.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 18, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.
> 
> ...



Dont mind him.


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## Cannonball (Oct 18, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.
> 
> ...



As far as I can tell you guys crush it! Never had a bad day at SB any time of year.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 18, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Snowmaking will be sub-par as usual. Pray for snow.



For a guy that skis at Sugarbush a few times year with cheap tickets from an employee friend you surely have done way more than your fair share of bitching in this thread. Do us all a favor and don't bother to come any farther north on Rte 100 than Killington if it's so below your standards for lifts, facilities and snow making.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 18, 2014)

Don't listen to the alcoholic behind the curtain


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## gostan (Oct 18, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.
> 
> ...


Shady, We miss you when we get on HG, but we are really happy to have you on the snowmaking crew.  See you soon.


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## spring_mountain_high (Oct 18, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> As one of the snowmakers at Sugarbush, I take offense to the "sub-par as usual" comment.  While we don't have the capacity/firepower as Killington or Okemo, we do get it done as best as we can.  For the past few years, we have opened for the season the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  And for the past two years, we have opened top-to-bottom.  Last year we met our early-season goals:  t2b on opening day, two summit routes, beginner terrain for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Weather plays a huge factor of course.  During the 2009/2010 season, we didn't open until after Thanksgiving due to temps.  And I think a year later, we opened, then were forced to close briefly due to a warmup.
> 
> ...



as someone who has enjoyed the fruits of your labor, i'd like to say thanks and keep up the good work


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## shadyjay (Oct 18, 2014)

Thanks ... I appreciate the kind words!  When it comes to snowmaking (actually, resort operations in general), you can't make everyone on these forums happy.  I'm looking forward to being back on the mtn in the next couple of weeks and hope its a good season/winter.  

And to gostan, you'll most likely see me back on HG once snowmaking's done.  That lift got some substantial upgrades this summer and should operate better this year.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 18, 2014)

Good to hear about the HG


and thanks for everything you do playing with the guns


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## dlague (Oct 19, 2014)

Shadyjay here is to the snowmaking crew. This was my wife and I toasting your efforts - probably recognize the background!




Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Scruffy (Oct 19, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> Thanks ... I appreciate the kind words!  When it comes to snowmaking (actually, resort operations in general),* you can't make everyone on these forums happy*.  I'm looking forward to being back on the mtn in the next couple of weeks and hope its a good season/winter.
> 
> And to gostan, you'll most likely see me back on HG once snowmaking's done.  That lift got some substantial upgrades this summer and should operate better this year.



Understatement of the year! Ever notice how cantankerous the posters of any internet forums are? It's a first world problem for sure.

Keep up the good fight on the mountain Shadyjay! We love your work!!


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## mikec142 (Oct 20, 2014)

No dog in this fight.

A couple of thoughts.  

1.  Skied SB this past President's Day weekend in glorious conditions.  Dumped 30+" of snow over the weekend and the skiing was tremendous.  

2.  Got the family signed up for some ski lessons that Saturday and Sunday.  After a hitch with the Saturday lessons, Russ Kauff (head instructor) made it right with a make up lesson for our kids with great instructors.  Russ is a stand up guy.  He instantly saw that my wife and kids were unhappy and made it right which went a long way to making it an amazing three days of skiing.  A lesser person could have handled it differently which might have resulted in a skiing family of four who wouldn't go back.  Instead, he made us big fans of both Sugarbush and the ski school.

3.  Minor quibble with the layout of the GHX lift and the NLT + SLBX.  When you get off of the GHX you have to hike up to the NLT or SLBX.  Not a huge deal, but seems like some better grading or planning could have adverted that issue.  Not a huge deal but when your with kids it can affect you.

4.  Views from the top of the mountain!  Just perfect.

5.  We tend to stay with family in Burlington so our major options for skiing are Stowe, SB, Smuggs, and Bolton Valley.  Have skied them all although I admit to not having gone to Smuggs in a while.  Slow lifts, cold weather, and kids don't mix.  Can't wait to get back there this year.  When you combine pricing, terrain, and conditions, SB is pretty hard to top.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 20, 2014)

mikec142 said:


> 3.  Minor quibble with the layout of the GHX lift and the NLT + SLBX.  When you get off of the GHX you have to hike up to the NLT or SLBX.  Not a huge deal, but seems like some better grading or planning could have adverted that issue.  Not a huge deal but when your with kids it can affect you.



Think of it as "conditioning."


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 20, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> And to gostan, you'll most likely see me back on HG once snowmaking's done.  That lift got some substantial upgrades this summer and should operate better this year.



What were the upgrades?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 20, 2014)

Didn't know you moved from lifts to snowmaking, Shadyjay. Keep us updated as to how things are going. On the ground recon is invaluable.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Didn't know you moved from lifts to snowmaking, Shadyjay. Keep us updated as to how things are going. On the ground recon is invaluable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



shady left heavens gate and all hell broke loose.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 20, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> shady left heavens gate and all hell broke loose.



Yeah no kidding.  

Funny story: a few years back when Shady was pretty active here he encouraged folks to say hello to him while he was bumping chairs.  So I saw a guy one day named "Jay" who was loading the Gatehouse.  I grinned and said, "hello Shady" assuming of course it was our guy. "Nice seeing you on AZ."  The guy glared at me (he was missing a few teeth) and replied, "what the hell are you talking about?"


----------



## machski (Oct 21, 2014)

ThinkSnow said:


> What were the upgrades?



My understanding is electrical and controls.


----------



## shadyjay (Oct 21, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah no kidding.
> 
> Funny story: a few years back when Shady was pretty active here he encouraged folks to say hello to him while he was bumping chairs.  So I saw a guy one day named "Jay" who was loading the Gatehouse.  I grinned and said, "hello Shady" assuming of course it was our guy. "Nice seeing you on AZ."  The guy glared at me (he was missing a few teeth) and replied, "what the hell are you talking about?"



Haha!  I remember that.  When I started at the mtn in Dec 08, there were at least 2 or 3 other coworkers named "Jay", so I started going by my last name.  

This will be my 3rd full season making snow here, and usually return to lifts sometime in February.  Lifts is fun, but I enjoy the challenges and the adventure of making snow.  And especially seeing the trails covered in white first thing in the morning as anxious skiers/riders are making their way to the mtn, it gives you a good feeling and a sense of accomplishment.


----------



## phin (Nov 8, 2014)

It's looks like the bush got a nice dose of natural coverage at mid elevation and up.

Also just ran across this, uphill traffic is now permitted on mt ellen.  Don't have any details though other than that.

http://backcountrymagazine.com/stories/backcountry-future-vt-bc-forum/


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## canobie#1 (Nov 8, 2014)

I finally visited SB last year and I have to say, it's one of the best mountains in NE.  Everything about it was awesome.  Much more character to the bush than there is at Stowe.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> I finally visited SB last year and I have to say, it's one of the best mountains in NE.  Everything about it was awesome.  Much more character to the bush than there is at Stowe.



+1


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## abc (Nov 8, 2014)

It's interesting how people view different mountains. Size and terrain aside, condition obviously plays the biggest part. 

I have quite favorable impression of both Stowe and SugarBush because, lodging on that part of VT are on the expensive side, so I only go when the mountains are close to 100% open, and preferably some recent snow fall! I would never pay the kind of price to ski the WROD, for example (or refrozen crud for that matter). So as far as I could remember, all my trips to both the Bush and Stowe had excellent snow, great terrain variety and ok, crowds! 

The same can't be said of Killington, where I tend to go early and late season for cheap turns. Well, it was CHEAP turns, on ice, on grass, on dirt... or glorious soft bumps! After a while, I forgot I can have powder days in K'mart too because there're so few of them in between the "cheap" days!  

I try not to judge a mountain when my experience with it is sporadic.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 8, 2014)

To me the good skiing in VT. is from Killington north. Take your pick of areas as it's all good.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> To me the good skiing in VT. is from Killington north. Take your pick of areas as it's all good.



Agreed.


----------



## abc (Nov 8, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> To me the good skiing in VT. is from Killington north. Take your pick of areas as it's all good.


I've given Burke a couple of tries. So far no luck.


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## canobie#1 (Nov 8, 2014)

The only two in southern NH that I loved were Stratton and Magic. 

Mount Snow is garbage.  Okemo and Bromley are OK.  

KIllington and Sugarbush are my favorite by far.  

Stowe is too bland for me.  Not enoguh there to make we wanna go back.  
Bolton is by far the most underratted out of all of them.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> Stowe is too bland for me.  Not enoguh there to make we wanna go back.



You maybe the only person in history to say that about Stowe's terrain......

Did you not ski Goat, Starr, Look Out, Chin Clip or any of their woods????


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> The only two in southern NH that I loved were Stratton and Magic.
> 
> Mount Snow is garbage.  Okemo and Bromley are OK.
> 
> ...



You loved Stratton (NH?), but Stowe was bland?


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 8, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> The only two in southern NH that I loved were Stratton and Magic.
> 
> Mount Snow is garbage.  Okemo and Bromley are OK.
> 
> ...


Well at least I now know who's opinions not to listen to.


----------



## Tin (Nov 8, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> The only two in southern NH that I loved were Stratton and Magic.
> 
> Mount Snow is garbage.  Okemo and Bromley are OK.
> 
> ...





Sugarloaf is in Vermont? Why is everyone complaining about the drive to the Summit then?


----------



## canobie#1 (Nov 8, 2014)

Stowe's front trails were great but I just didn't find the place to be " amazing".  Chin Clip was my favorite


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## phin (Nov 8, 2014)

folks, this is the sugarbush thread -- *the* home of the best skiing terrain in new england. 

get the stowe debate outta here!


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## Smellytele (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You loved Stratton (NH?), but Stowe was bland?



Yes and Magic is in southern NH to as canobie1 said as well.


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## phin (Nov 8, 2014)

Opening day is set for Nov 22nd.  

Think they'll open a week early if conditions permit?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

phin said:


> folks, this is the sugarbush thread -- *the* home of the best skiing terrain in new england.
> 
> get the stowe debate outta here!



I love Sugarbush, but they don't have this to offer.


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## Tin (Nov 8, 2014)

Given the 6-8" yesterday and they will only have to shut down snowmaking for a day and a half this week, yes they could. What is their early season offering? Jester and the upper part of Organgrinder? Got my season pass there this year but have never skied their before mid-December.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

Tin said:


> Given the 6-8" yesterday and they will only have to shut down snowmaking for a day and a half this week, yes they could. What is their early season offering? Jester and the upper part of Organgrinder? Got my season pass there this year but have never skied their before mid-December.



Jester to Deathspout. Then OG.


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## benski (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Jester to Deathspout. Then OG.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



They are already making snow on upper OG so it will probably be open opening day. I would not be surprised if they have at least one more run open on opening day.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 9, 2014)

They won't open before the 22nd unless there is a significant dump.


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## Newpylong (Nov 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I love Sugarbush, but they don't have this to offer.



No but neither do many other places besides Whiteface and possibly Jay. Stowe is unique.

But I would take on piste at Sugarbush any day over Stowe. Much more variety.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 9, 2014)

You can find stuff like that on either side of the notch. Stowe has more anyone though. There is a reason why the Meathead guys primarily filmed there. Jay and MRG both have stuff along their respective ridges but nothing to that extent.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> They won't open before the 22nd unless there is a significant dump.



It's too bad.  I know that the Sugarbush I knew would be aggressive.  Not anymore I guess.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 9, 2014)

Once again if any mountain was ideally set up for early season skiing/riding it's Mt. Ellen. Same thing for late season skiing/riding. A natural resource being wasted.

Upper mountain looks prime & they haven't even blown a flake up there yet.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Once again if any mountain was ideally set up for early season skiing/riding it's Mt. Ellen. Same thing for late season skiing/riding. A natural resource being wasted.



Yep. Completely agree. 


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## Newpylong (Nov 10, 2014)

It used to be that way before the focus shifted to Lincoln... I understand the focus being there but I don't see the logic for not using geography to your advantage. But not my mountain.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep. Completely agree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Any idea what the elevation is at the summit quad?


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## steamboat1 (Nov 10, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Any idea what the elevation is at the summit quad?


Base 3,042, summit 4,083.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

Mt ellen doesnt open until the weekend before xmas so the only snow being made over there now is on inverness so GMVS can use it for race training.
from a strictly skiing perspective mt ellen is the better option for early and late season, but the people and real estate are over at LP, so that wins out.


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## dlague (Nov 10, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> Mt ellen doesnt open until the weekend before xmas so the only snow being made over there now is on inverness so GMVS can use it for race training.
> from a strictly skiing perspective mt ellen is the better option for early and late season, but the people and real estate are over at LP, so that wins out.



Too bad they wouldn't build out at the base of Mt Ellen to anchor it more.


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## dlague (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I love Sugarbush, but they don't have this to offer.



That was all stuff that had to be skinned to from the looks of it!  While the skiing looked great - I am too lazy for the earn the turns stuff.  I have a tendency to be more boundary oriented.  I think Stowe and Sugabush have their unique qualities.  Lets face it - if you got a comp to either one, I doubt that they would be turned down.  We ski both every year now at least once!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

I wouldn't want to see RE development over at Ellen.  I prefer it the way it is as the quiet and less resorty side of the hill.   If keeping Ellen that way means not utilizing it for early or late season so be it


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## dlague (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't want to see RE development over at Ellen.  I prefer it the way it is as the quiet and less resorty side of the hill.   If keeping Ellen that way means not utilizing it for early or late season so be it




Fair enough - then again I ski Sugarbush only during mid season so I am not really sure why I joined the debate.  Skied Sugarbush once during late season on a free day on Steins Run.


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## jmurray23 (Nov 10, 2014)

The bush has always been one of my favorites, also magic is a great spot to get away from crowds and perfect for fresh tree riding


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## WWF-VT (Nov 10, 2014)

I believe the statistic from the recent Sugarbush promo magazine is the Mt Ellen has 43% of the resort's terrain and gets only 27% of the overall skier visits. I am fortunate to have a condo at the base of Mt Ellen and we like the old style lodge and limited base area development. I am not sure if there is much land available even if Sugarbush wanted to expand real estate options at Mt Ellen.


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## gmcunni (Nov 10, 2014)

dlague said:


> I am too lazy for the earn the turns stuff.



+1


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

dlague said:


> Too bad they wouldn't build out at the base of Mt Ellen to anchor it more.



I think they plan to once the LP village is complete.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 10, 2014)

I think it was 3 years ago when both Lincoln Peak & Mt. Ellen closed the same day. I started at Lincoln & left because Steins was the only trail open (I can only take so much mogul bashing). Went over to Mt. Ellen & there were still several trails open off the summit despite Mt. Ellen receiving a lot less snowmaking love than Lincoln. I think this was the year when no one in New England made it into May. GMX was only for up/down loading & you had to carry your ski's on the lift. Summit quad was ski on ski off. I've had other experiences where Lincoln was all slush while Ellen was still mid winter conditions up high. Damn shame they don't use it anymore especially for late season turns.


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## Tin (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't want to see RE development over at Ellen.  I prefer it the way it is as the quiet and less resorty side of the hill.   If keeping Ellen that way means not utilizing it for early or late season so be it




This, keep it the way it is. Nice on a fresh snow day. The actual terrain and woods are not as challenging as LP area but I like the lack of people.


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## Tin (Nov 10, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Damn shame they don't use it anymore especially for late season turns.



I just don't see it having a really strong late season bump run or much else for that matter that would draw late season crowds to the area when you can ski Steins, Organ Grinder, Lexi's, and Ripcord. For having 2,600' of vert Mt. Ellen skis smaller than it is imo.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 10, 2014)

Tin said:


> I just don't see it having a really strong late season bump run or much else for that matter that would draw late season crowds to the area when you can ski Steins, Organ Grinder, Lexi's, and Ripcord. For having 2,600' of vert Mt. Ellen skis smaller than it is imo.


FIS & if they ever decide to blow snow on Exterminator again that too. Before Win came along Mt. Ellen had a strong late season skier base.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

Tin said:


> I just don't see it having a really strong late season bump run or much else for that matter that would draw late season crowds to the area when you can ski Steins, Organ Grinder, Lexi's, and Ripcord. For having 2,600' of vert Mt. Ellen skis smaller than it is imo.



You really missed out.  Ellen was THE place for early and late season skiing.  Strong bump runs?  FIS, Exterminator, Black Diamond, etc. etc.  Stein's is fun, but it turns into huge GS bumps.  

The last two years I was at Sugarbush Mount Ellen was a bump mecca.  This was 2009-2011.  This was largely thanks to Bushmogulmaster's work.  

So it sounds like you really missed out on all this.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 10, 2014)

Tin said:


> I just don't see it having a really strong late season bump run or much else for that matter that would draw late season crowds to the area when you can ski Steins, Organ Grinder, Lexi's, and Ripcord. For having 2,600' of vert Mt. Ellen skis smaller than it is imo.



Steins is setup nicely for lift access but the run out always gets ugly. Mt Ellen is setup much nicer.


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## dlague (Nov 10, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Steins is setup nicely for lift access but the run out always gets ugly. Mt Ellen is setup much nicer.



That is true!  It converges into a narrow run out.


.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

dlague said:


> That is true!  It converges into a narrow run out.
> 
> 
> .......



And has a relatively LOW elevation.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

The width of the run out isn't the problem, the elevation is the problem.  That's why people want the old days back where they offered North as a late and early season offering. Ski of the summit Quad, then download on the GMX.

All this being said, Sugarbush pushes it pretty late into April, some years even May.  Outside of Killington and Jay, they are pretty much the last mountain in VT to close.  They stay open later than Smuggs, Stowe, Okemo, Stratton, Mount Snow etc.  They're opening this year a week before T-day.  I don't think SB skiers have much to complain about regarding season length.  In fact, I don't think actual SB skiers / pass holders are doing the complaining in this thread.  They seem happy.   

I do get it though.  "The Dream".  In theory, if Sugarbush wanted to, they could blow a glacier on Upper FIS and outlast everyone in the east with the elevation of that terrain pod.  It is the best set up of any ski area in the east.


----------



## Tin (Nov 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You really missed out.  Ellen was THE place for early and late season skiing.  Strong bump runs?  FIS, Exterminator, Black Diamond, etc. etc.  Stein's is fun, but it turns into huge GS bumps.
> 
> The last two years I was at Sugarbush Mount Ellen was a bump mecca.  This was 2009-2011.  This was largely thanks to Bushmogulmaster's work.
> 
> So it sounds like you really missed out on all this.



Oh I did because of an extended time off during undergrad. Sounds like it was quite the place. I imagine Hammerhead and The Cliffs had some great low angle bumps. The past few times I've been there the only bumps around were on FIS and Black Diamond. Even Exterminator was flat.


----------



## phin (Nov 10, 2014)

No complaints from me about the length of the season at the bush.

I'm looking forward to making turns there in less than two weeks!


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 10, 2014)

Lots of truth being spoken in this thread now.

Ellen arguably has the best topographic set up for early/late season skiing in all of the East, let alone of the two SB mountains.  It's a shame that current ownership abandoned that virtue in favor of pleasing the real-estate owners at LP, but he who has the gold makes the rules.  I get it, but I don't have to like it.

FWIW, much more of the land around the base of Ellen is in private hands, much of it by Summit Ventures (the entity that owns Sugarbush).  At some point 10-20 years down the road when full build out is achieved, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see development at the base of Ellen.  Those outer parking lots are very rarely full and there is plenty of barely utilized land both behind the Sunnyside chair and basically for the entire length of Mt Ellen road down to German Flats Rd.  

No points for guessing that any development there will be called Chase Brook.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Lots of truth being spoken in this thread now.
> 
> Ellen arguably has the best topographic set up for early/late season skiing in all of the East, let alone of the two SB mountains.  It's a shame that current ownership abandoned that virtue in favor of pleasing the real-estate owners at LP, but he who has the gold makes the rules.  I get it, but I don't have to like it.
> 
> ...



Exactly


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----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> The width of the run out isn't the problem, the elevation is the problem.  That's why people want the old days back where they offered North as a late and early season offering. Ski of the summit Quad, then download on the GMX.
> 
> All this being said, Sugarbush pushes it pretty late into April, some years even May.  Outside of Killington and Jay, they are pretty much the last mountain in VT to close.  They stay open later than Smuggs, Stowe, Okemo, Stratton, Mount Snow etc.  They're opening this year a week before T-day.  I don't think SB skiers have much to complain about regarding season length.  In fact, I don't think actual SB skiers / pass holders are doing the complaining in this thread.  They seem happy.
> 
> I do get it though.  "The Dream".  In theory, if Sugarbush wanted to, they could blow a glacier on Upper FIS and outlast everyone in the east with the elevation of that terrain pod.  It is the best set up of any ski area in the east.



true.  No complaints.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

Tin said:


> Oh I did because of an extended time off during undergrad. Sounds like it was quite the place. I imagine Hammerhead and The Cliffs had some great low angle bumps. The past few times I've been there the only bumps around were on FIS and Black Diamond. Even Exterminator was flat.



really, tin?  Cliffs, hammerhead and exterminator are almost always left bumped up.  They rarely groom them out.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



not only is there a significant amount of land for development, but the potential for lift access skiing expansion is great.  Not that I slefishly want to see it happen, but there are 2 pods begging for lifts, above Inverness and at the lower fis runout.  But that is a long long long way off.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

I'd love to see those terrain pods as well, but I doubt it happens with this ownership.  I'm not sure Win would see the ROI in terms of increased skier visits.  It seems to me they have more than enough terrain to satisfy demand and developing that terrain would maybe only come as a reactionary effort if they were losing market share at some point.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd love to see those terrain pods as well, but I doubt it happens with this ownership.  I'm not sure Win would see the ROI in terms of increased skier visits.  It seems to me they have more than enough terrain to satisfy demand and developing that terrain would maybe only come as a reactionary effort if they were losing market share at some point.



I don't want to see those terrain pods developed.  Those are prime woods. No way it's happening in the foreseeable future.  But it's there.  The lift line above Inverness was cut back in the day and is still somewhat visible on Google maps.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

Sorry, misunderstood your post.  Yup, aware of the upper Inverness lift line.  I've never explored those woods up there.  I'll have to someday.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry, misunderstood your post.  Yup, aware of the upper Inverness lift line.  I've never explored those woods up there.  I'll have to someday.



There are some cliffs in there and it retains snow well.


----------



## benski (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry, misunderstood your post.  Yup, aware of the upper Inverness lift line.  I've never explored those woods up there.  I'll have to someday.


I have never done it. I think mad river skiers hike there from the single chair.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 11, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't want to see those terrain pods developed.  Those are prime woods. No way it's happening in the foreseeable future.  But it's there.  The lift line above Inverness was cut back in the day and is still somewhat visible on Google maps.


It's my understanding that after they cut the lift line above Inverness they realized they didn't own/lease that land. That's why it wasn't developed further. I believe it was originally intended to connect Mt. Ellen with MRG before Mt. Ellen became part of Sugarbush. That would've been something. If they could develope Slidebrook & make all three + areas connected with up & down skiing/riding between all 3/4/5 areas that would blow anything else in New England away. We all know that's never happening but the potential is there.


----------



## whitemtn27 (Nov 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I do get it though.  "The Dream".  In theory, if Sugarbush wanted to, they could blow a glacier on Upper FIS and outlast everyone in the east with the elevation of that terrain pod.  It is the best set up of any ski area in the east.



Yes, this, exactly.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like that.  I love Sugarbush for what it is, and mostly I hope it doesn't change too much.

But man, The Dream... you could have it all, right?  Castlerock, everything fun at Lincoln, Lynx, early morning cat skiing, super fun woods everywhere, cruisers with a view, awesome early and late up top at Mt Ellen that would put Killington to shame, AND Slide Brook and its huge lift overhead linking it all together.

I probably would whine about it if they ever tried to be everything-for-everyone, but damn, it's fun to fantasize about.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 11, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> It's my understanding that after they cut the lift line above Inverness they realized they didn't own/lease that land. That's why it wasn't developed further. I believe it was originally intended to connect Mt. Ellen with MRG before Mt. Ellen became part of Sugarbush. That would've been something. If they could develope Slidebrook & make all three + areas connected with up & down skiing/riding between all 3/4/5 areas that would blow anything else in New England away. We all know that's never happening but the potential is there.



thats my understanding as well.  That old lift line went too far north toward mrg.  There's plenty of room on sugarbush owned land to run a new lift.


----------



## Tin (Nov 11, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> really, tin?  Cliffs, hammerhead and exterminator are almost always left bumped up.  They rarely groom them out.



In January and March this year both were cord when I visited. I can understand why in January because they had guns going but not March. I believe Ext. was bumped in March.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Nov 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry, misunderstood your post.  Yup, aware of the upper Inverness lift line.  I've never explored those woods up there.  I'll have to someday.





HowieT2 said:


> There are some cliffs in there and it retains snow well.





benski said:


> I have never done it. I think mad river skiers hike there from the single chair.



There is nothing good there.....move along move along


----------



## WWF-VT (Nov 11, 2014)

Tin said:


> In January and March this year both were cord when I visited. I can understand why in January because they had guns going but not March. I believe Ext. was bumped in March.



Exterminator, Hammerhead and Tumbler are natural snow trails and not grooomed.  Late last year Lower Exterminator was groomed late in the season.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 11, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Exterminator, Hammerhead and Tumbler are natural snow trails and not grooomed.  Late last year Lower Exterminator was groomed late in the season.


Upper Exterminator has snowmaking it's just they haven't used it in a few years & yes they do groom it occassionally. They even groom Castle Rock on occassion, at least I've skied Castle Rock run groomed. On the other hand I've never seen Hammerhead or Tumbler groomed, the Cliffs yes but I think they've been doing a 1/2 groom lately.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Nov 11, 2014)

Hell MRG groomed Chute late in the season last year I believe.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 11, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Hell MRG groomed Chute late in the season last year I believe.


That I've never seen although I did get to ski Chute one time the first day they opened it for the season before it got bumped up. It's actually not a difficult run under those conditions.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Nov 11, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> That I've never seen although I did get to ski Chute one time the first day they opened it for the season before it got bumped up. It's actually not a difficult run under those conditions.



They posted a video of it in a daily snow report. I had never seen it either. There are few ledge bands that seem to make it impossible. I imagine maybe they didn't do the whole thing or did it by section.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 11, 2014)

yeah, they will groom castlerock, excluding liftline, once or twice a season to freshen things up.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't want to see RE development over at Ellen.  I prefer it the way it is as the quiet and less resorty side of the hill.   If keeping Ellen that way means not utilizing it for early or late season so be it


Pico has lots of development at it's base but still retains a quieter less resorty feel. It might not be a bad thing at Ellen either. Just saying.


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## gostan (Nov 20, 2014)

Troubling change on the Sugarbush website for opening weekend.  It now states that "Sugar Bravo is scheduled to spin 9 am- 4 pm, other lift confirmations will be updated soon.  Although we will have several trails open, there'll be one way down, which is set to be groomed."

What is happening with Heavens Gate?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2014)

gostan said:


> Troubling change on the Sugarbush website for opening weekend.  It now states that "Sugar Bravo is scheduled to spin 9 am- 4 pm, other lift confirmations will be updated soon.  Although we will have several trails open, there'll be one way down, which is set to be groomed."
> 
> What is happening with Heavens Gate?



I'm not on the ground, but they *normally* open Heaven's Gate with Super Bravo being download only.  I'd hope that they could go top to bottom.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

gostan said:


> Troubling change on the Sugarbush website for opening weekend.  It now states that "Sugar Bravo is scheduled to spin 9 am- 4 pm, other lift confirmations will be updated soon.  Although we will have several trails open, there'll be one way down, which is set to be groomed."
> 
> What is happening with Heavens Gate?



I read that and didn't like it either. The trails off the top have enough coverage.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not on the ground, but they *normally* open Heaven's Gate with Super Bravo being download only.  I'd hope that they could go top to bottom.



According to FB and their report they will be.


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2014)

They could be a bit more clear, especially given concern/focus on lift issues. The web site and new post on FB clearly state "Top to bottom". The confusion seems to be this quote "Super Bravo is scheduled to spin 9AM-4PM, other lift confirmations will be updated soon." Could this simply be regarding what hours  HG will run? 

I hope they don't try "we're open TBT but you need to take the Lincoln Limo to summit"....


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## gostan (Nov 20, 2014)

Sugarbush's T2B for Saturday is only the top of Sugar Bravo to base with 6 trails.  Downspout, Domino Chute,  Lower Organgrinder, Lower Downspout & Coffee Run.  no Heavens Gate.  No word in the updated snow report as to whether it is a snow or a lift problem as to HG.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

Wow. Some clear differences in semantics there.


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2014)

Another forum indicated issues with back up diesel engine. Kind of unbelievable given history and histrionics about all the work they did this summer. I hope this is just a bad start and the rest of the winter sees no issues. But prior performance is worrisome.


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2014)

It's a mechanical problem.  Some things never change.  Opening Heaven's Gate would have only added one more trail, Jester.  No snowmaking on Organgrinder yet.  Amazing how Mt Snow has more terrain open being much further south.  Not to mention Stowe.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2014)

slatham said:


> Another forum indicated issues with back up diesel engine. Kind of unbelievable given history and histrionics about all the work they did this summer. I hope this is just a bad start and the rest of the winter sees no issues. But prior performance is worrisome.





tumbler said:


> It's a mechanical problem.  Some things never change.  Opening Heaven's Gate would have only added one more trail, Jester.  No snowmaking on Organgrinder yet.  Amazing how Mt Snow has more terrain open being much further south.  Not to mention Stowe.



Seriously?  I thought that they fixed the lift AND were blowing snow on OG.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 20, 2014)

So no "top to bottom" skiing on opening day.  With the HG lift running Jester just adds another long trail and would spread people out on the mountain.  I doubt anyone is going to pay $73.  Offering a $73 adult ticket is a good way to to keep away customers besides passholders with Stowe, Killington and other VT options to choose from.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

They have definitely been blowing on upper OG and lower OG.


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2014)

From Facebook: "Heaven’s Gate area isn't quite ready for opening but we aim to have it ready by Thanksgiving weekend" 

I like the slipping in of the word "area" instead of "lift"  Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullsh*t, Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullsh*t


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

Where is Shadyjay?


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2014)

Mt Snow and other southern areas have superior snowmaking. For as much as I love Sugarbush, from a snowmaking perspective they are not even in the same league as the southern resorts. And now Stowe too, it would appear, is also in a different league.

I agree that the $73 is a sly way to effectively have a pass holder weekend.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

They're making excuses on FB. What the hell..


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2014)

Lifts haven't even spun yet and Win is on FB making excuses.  Nothing like waiting til the last minute to get your lift work done and inspected.  That's on Mtn Ops.  Spectacular start.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

Snowmaking  is great. No doubts there


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## steamboat1 (Nov 20, 2014)

Wow & I took grief for bashing Sugarbush a few pages back.

Look at you guys.

They do have lovely brand new condo's for sale if anyone is interested.

Fresh local poop in Timbers every night.


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## Tin (Nov 20, 2014)

Waiting on an auxiliary motor part, pointing at 2 inspectors retiring, and charging $73 for mid to bottom? Great place but they really need to get their shit together.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 21, 2014)

It was just a typo. They meant to say mid-top to bottom


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## deadheadskier (Nov 21, 2014)

Maybe this is the kind of snafu needed to convince Win to focus early and late season operations at North........more reliable lifts.  :lol:


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 21, 2014)

Tin said:


> Waiting on an auxiliary motor part



One would think all the issues from last season would maybe MAYBE prompt management to keep some spare parts on hand, but I guess that's just too logical?


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## Tin (Nov 21, 2014)

ThinkSnow said:


> One would think all the issues from last season would maybe MAYBE prompt management to keep some spare parts on hand, but I guess that's just too logical?




You should quote the words from Win you posted on the other forum. I remember reading that the first time and feeling warm and fuzzy, then when you posted it this morning I wanted to throw my computer. So much for heading up Tuesday. Every time I want to drive the 4 hours up now I have to keep checking to see what lifts running.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 21, 2014)

I had to reread the title of this thread a few times. I thought we were discussing Magic


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## tumbler (Nov 21, 2014)

North will not be the early season.  They are focusing all efforts to open Inverness for GMVS which takes all the snowmaking capacity there.


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## rtjcbrown (Nov 21, 2014)

tumbler said:


> North will not be the early season.  They are focusing all efforts to open *CONDOS*



Fixed


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2014)

They have some issues with critical infrastructure--lifts and snowmaking. The people are great. It's a challenging business. 



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## steamboat1 (Nov 21, 2014)

slatham said:


> Another forum indicated issues with back up diesel engine. Kind of unbelievable given history and histrionics about all the work they did this summer. I hope this is just a bad start and the rest of the winter sees no issues. But prior performance is worrisome.


It's not that difficult to rebuild a diesel engine, doesn't take long either. I don't know what type of diesel back up engine they have but if it's from one of the main manufacturers parts should be readily available.


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## Tin (Nov 21, 2014)

8" of snow between today and yesterday and still going...

Side note I received an email from Win after something I posted on FB. Have to respect that.


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## benski (Nov 21, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> It's not that difficult to rebuild a diesel engine, doesn't take long either. I don't know what type of diesel back up engine they have but if it's from one of the main manufacturers parts should be readily available.



Win said they could not find the part on the east coast. 


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## slatham (Nov 21, 2014)

This is what Win posted this afternoon on the Skimrv blog. I for one will cut them some slack......

Welcome to the 2014/2015 Season
Welcome to our new winter season. We will be opening tomorrow for skiing. We were not quite ready today for a passholder appreciation day but you will find some nice skiing and riding tomorrow. I just took a run and was pleased with what our new HKD's put out. Tomorrow Downspout all the way down will be groomed through Coffee Run and Lower Organgrinder will have some nice fresh manmade powder. The first turns especially will be sweet.

Let me preempt some discussion about why we are only skiing from mid-mountain down tomorrow. The Heaven's Gate lift is still a couple of days away from being ready for public use.
As for inspection about two weeks ago. it was running beautifully both on the electric motor and the auxiliary diesel motor, Every 7 years a lift is required to do a load test unless major system changes have been made and then it has to be done at that point before the Tram authority will clear it for public use. We had not had a load test of Heaven's Gate for several years. When the inspector from the Tram Authority was here it ran perfectly on the electric motor but when we switched it to diesel it ran but just a bit slower that the code requires, so it did not pass. After eliminating all the other possibilities we called in Cummins Engine to take the auxiliary motor apart.. Unfortunately, their work schedule did allow them to get here for several days. They discovered that the fuel injection system was not working properly so they took it back to their shop to fix it. Unfortunately, the part the required to complete the job was not in any East Coast locations so they had to track one down out West and have in shipped to them in Springfield, MA and they couldn't get it up here in time for to get it installed and then inspected by tomorrow morning. We expect Cummins will have it installed in a day or two and then we have to get the Vermont Tram inspector back to do the load test again. Not sure he is willing to to it on a weekend but we will try. Then it should be in great shape for the season.

Thus, we will not be skiing Upper Jester but we changed the snowmaking priority to Lower Grinder to have that ready by tomorrow morning.

Despite this I think you will enjoy the first day, and I look forward to a great season.

Win also answered a good question as to why the inspection was only a few weeks ago. That was when "Sky Trac" completed their work on the lift.

Think snow people, think snow.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2014)

slatham said:


> This is what Win posted this afternoon on the Skimrv blog. I for one will cut them some slack......
> 
> Welcome to the 2014/2015 Season
> Welcome to our new winter season. We will be opening tomorrow for skiing. We were not quite ready today for a passholder appreciation day but you will find some nice skiing and riding tomorrow. I just took a run and was pleased with what our new HKD's put out. Tomorrow Downspout all the way down will be groomed through Coffee Run and Lower Organgrinder will have some nice fresh manmade powder. The first turns especially will be sweet.
> ...



Interesting that Sky Trac and not Poma is doing the work. Anyone know why? It is a Poma lift after all.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting that Sky Trac and not Poma is doing the work. Anyone know why? It is a Poma lift after all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



My guess - Sky Trac is still trying to gain a hold on a market share.  Probably priced more competitively, and they are known to do quality work.


But this is the one I want to really grab onto:



> It's not that difficult to rebuild a diesel engine, doesn't take long either. I don't know what type of diesel back up engine they have but if it's from one of the main manufacturers parts should be readily available.




First of all, this problem seems to be with the injection system.  Without knowing what model this is, I have to assume it's a commonrail injection system.  Obviously, we're not talking about a rebuild.  But fuel injection is critical in diesel combustion, and can be complex, especially in high horsepower applications.

But rebuilding a high-horsepower diesel engine is neither easy, nor fast.  We had a full in-frame rebuild on two Cummins 8.3 units in our cats last year (spun a bearing in one, and dropped a valve in the other - both right about 9,000 hours), and it can be a week-long project when you factor in teardown, final diagnosis, resleeving, replacing connecting rods and pistons (and crankshafts, for that matter...) as necessary, and then reassembling.  Not to mention that typically if a rebuild is required, you're looking at turbo and manifold work, and likely injection system work.  Especially if it's a HEUI system!  But I don't think Cummins ever went that route......

Anyway, not commenting at all on the Bush's situation (we've all got our own problems to worry about this time of year!), just sayin'... diesel engines are, on one hand, quite simple in theory.  Yet on the other hand, often quite complex in real-world applications.


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## Scruffy (Nov 22, 2014)

slatham said:


> .... When the inspector from the Tram Authority was here it ran perfectly on the electric motor but when we *switched it to diesel it ran but just a bit slower that the code requires*, so it did not pass. After eliminating all the other possibilities we called in Cummins Engine to take the auxiliary motor apart.. Unfortunately, their work schedule did allow them to get here for several days. They discovered that the fuel injection ...



Interesting that the back-up system ( the diesel ) needs to run at some predetermined, by code, speed. I thought the back-up diesel was to get people off a lift that was going to shutdown anyway, due to an electric outage or other main motor malfunction. Seems a bit picky to me, I'd be happy to get off the lift, even at a slower pace, rather than a evact. Can someone with knowledge in the area shed any light on the speed requirement? Perhaps the speed just an indicator of an unhealthy diesel engine ?


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## Tin (Nov 22, 2014)

I have been stuck on lifts at Mt. Snow, Pico, and Crotched where back ups had to be used and it was a very slow crawl to the top to unload on each. I remember Pico taking almost a half hour to get from just above Birch Woods to the summit. Hell DHS and I were stuck on the Crotched Rocket last year at the top of Pluto's (so figure 150' to get to the top) and that took over 10 minutes. If it "just wasn't fast enough" it sounds like it was hardly moving or not at all.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

Scruffy said:


> Interesting that the back-up system ( the diesel ) needs to run at some predetermined, by code, speed. I thought the back-up diesel was to get people off a lift that was going to shutdown anyway, due to an electric outage or other main motor malfunction. Seems a bit picky to me, I'd be happy to get off the lift, even at a slower pace, rather than a evact. Can someone with knowledge in the area shed any light on the speed requirement? Perhaps the speed just an indicator of an unhealthy diesel engine ?



I don't have the code in front of me, but there are different specs for APU vs. EPU engines.  APU = auxilliary power unit, and it is the backup engine designed, more or less, to operate the lift at full capacity and full speed.  If there's an APU, it will be required to meet these standards.  An EPU is an emergency power unit, and is just designed to evacuate the passengers, and thus may run at a much slower speed.  Many newer lifts are equipped with both, an both will be expected by code to meet their design specifications.

Anyone who has ANSI B77 in front, feel free to correct me.  Just going from memory here, and I haven't been in the lift world for a while.

But you are also accurate that an inability to meet design standards, fast or slow, does indicate an unhealthy engine.  And an unhealthy engine in this application means a potentially hazardous situation.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Tin said:


> Hell DHS and I were stuck on the Crotched Rocket last year at the top of Pluto's (so figure 150' to get to the top) and that took over 10 minutes. If it "just wasn't fast enough" it sounds like it was hardly moving or not at all.



DHS skied at an area other than Killington????


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## Tin (Nov 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> DHS skied at an area other than Killington????
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



DHS = Deadheadskier 
DHS =/= Douchey Highway Star


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## steamboat1 (Nov 22, 2014)

BushMogulMaster said:


> But this is the one I want to really grab onto:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why does a back-up motor for a lift need all that fancy mumbo jumbo? A groomer I can understand. A simple Detroit 6, 8 or 1271 would be plenty ample & are easy to tear down & rebuild with parts being readily available. Injectors are probably the simplest things to change on those engines. If I'm not mistaken the single chair at MRG ran for decades using a 671. No need for all the fancy electronic computers with those engines either. All they need is fuel.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Why does a back-up motor for a lift need all that fancy mumbo jumbo? A groomer I can understand. A simple Detroit 6, 8 or 1271 would be plenty ample & are easy to tear down & rebuild with parts being readily available. Injectors are probably the simplest things to change on those engines. If I'm not mistaken the single chair at MRG ran for decades using a 671. No need for all the fancy electronic computers with those engines either. All they need is fuel.




Large diesels are not necessarily that complex in theory, as I said. In fact, fuel + compression (heat) = combustion. But there's a lot of supporting components! And to do a rebuild just takes a lot of time.

Taking the computer out of the mix doesn't necessarily make it that much easier. There's more to diesel than just engine control.  You start with fuel delivery, which means a lifter pump.  Then fuel lines.  Then your injection system, whether commonrail or HEUI, it's gotta be just right.  Then injectors, which, as you said, are not difficult to replace.  But they're just one tiny piece of the puzzle.  Then you go inside, and you've got pistons, rings, cylinders, lifters, valves, connecting rods, and on and on and on and on.  Not to mention the turbo system: up pipes, down pipes, turbo seals (better keep tabs on those... don't want a runaway!), compressor wheel, aftercooler, etc.  Then the usual things on any engine, like the cooling system (radiator, fan, hoses, etc.).  In the modern day with Tier IV standards, you've got a ridiculous amount of emissions equipment, like EGRs, EGR coolers, DPF systems, urea injection, etc.


But we're off topic.  They don't need to do a rebuild, just make a repair to the fuel injection system.  Who knows what's wrong.  May have nothing to do with injectors, but could be a fuel pump for the commonrail that's not building enough pressure, or something along those lines.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

And FYI, parts usually are extremely readily available for Cummins engines, so this must be a very specific part that isn't commonly stocked.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 22, 2014)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Large diesels are not necessarily that complex in theory, as I said. In fact, fuel + compression (heat) = combustion. But there's a lot of supporting components! And to do a rebuild just takes a lot of time.
> 
> Taking the computer out of the mix doesn't necessarily make it that much easier. There's more to diesel than just engine control.  You start with fuel delivery, which means a lifter pump.  Then fuel lines.  Then your injection system, whether commonrail or HEUI, it's gotta be just right.  Then injectors, which, as you said, are not difficult to replace.  But they're just one tiny piece of the puzzle.  Then you go inside, and you've got pistons, rings, cylinders, lifters, valves, connecting rods, and on and on and on and on.  Not to mention the turbo system: up pipes, down pipes, turbo seals (better keep tabs on those... don't want a runaway!), compressor wheel, aftercooler, etc.  Then the usual things on any engine, like the cooling system (radiator, fan, hoses, etc.).  In the modern day with Tier IV standards, you've got a ridiculous amount of emissions equipment, like EGRs, EGR coolers, DPF systems, urea injection, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes I know what it entails to tear down an engine. I've helped rebuild the 871's on our boat a few times. When I say easy I mean it should only take 3-4 days the most to tear down & rebuild. In an emergency it can be done quicker by putting in more hours each day. This of course is if you're using new parts. If your sending parts out to be re-machined then it will take longer.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes I know what it entails to tear down an engine. I've helped rebuild the 871's on our boat a few times. When I say easy I mean it should only take 3-4 days the most to tear down & rebuild. In an emergency it can be done quicker by putting in more hours each day. This of course is if you're using new parts. If your sending parts out to be re-machined then it will take longer.



It's all good, man... I was just responding to your original statement that "_It's not that difficult to rebuild a diesel engine, doesn't take long either. "  _Most would read something like that, and interpret it to mean that it doesn't require any special training, and you could do it in the space of a day or so.  To the contrary, a full rebuild requires specialized knowledge and training, and even a pro might take a week to complete it depending on the point of failure.

Now back to Sugarbush....................................


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## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2014)

BushMogulMaster said:


> My guess - Sky Trac is still trying to gain a hold on a market share.  Probably priced more competitively, and they are known to do quality work.



I figured that was what was going on.  And nice to see you!  Let me know if you are in Utah.


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I figured that was what was going on.  And nice to see you!  Let me know if you are in Utah.



Might be out for the NSAA winter show.  We'll see.  I'll let you know.


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## shadyjay (Nov 22, 2014)

We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout.  We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers.  Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done.  The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today.  Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps.  I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.  

Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout.  We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open!  And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.  

I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building.  Looked like quite the crowd!!!


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## BushMogulMaster (Nov 22, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout.  We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers.  Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done.  The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today.  Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps.  I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.
> 
> Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout.  We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open!  And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.
> 
> I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building.  Looked like quite the crowd!!!



Glad to hear it, Jay.  Tell Paul and Mike that Patrick, Jon, and Dan said "Hello" from Colorado.


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## Tin (Nov 22, 2014)

shadyjay said:


> We did not blow any snow on Upper OG, except at the very top and the flats at Downspout.  We got word to make snow on Lower OG on Tuesday, and it came together pretty quick, especially with the new towers.  Given temps earlier in the week, we very well could have gotten Upper OG done.  The decision was made to go to Lower OG and given the snow we put down on it, I'm sure it was fun today.  Those towers did really well and worked very good in this week's cold temps.  I think the decision to move to Lower OG was a good one, especially since it was known that HG would not be ready to spin for the weekend.
> 
> Also, having Lower OG open on Day 1 helps to take the pressure off Downspout.  We all know how Downspout can get when its the only trail open!  And without HG right away, maybe Downspout will hold together better early season.
> 
> I drove by the parking lot around 2pm and saw cars parked all the way behind our snowmaking compressor building.  Looked like quite the crowd!!!



So when was it known HG wouldn't spin? Nice job on short notice.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 22, 2014)

They have the part and the repair is done from what I understand, but they can't run it until the state tram inspector returns.

had a nice day making turns.  Thanks shady!


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## shadyjay (Nov 22, 2014)

Good to hear!  Lower OG has a lot of ditches/waterbars/stream crossings down below the germ chute (aka - the closed off portion) that require a lot of snow to fill in but those new towers did the job pretty good and fast.  It is amazing since earlier in the week, there was merely a dusting of snow on it and we were driving the truck up the work road (Middle Jester as it crosses Lower OG).  You really don't realize how much snow it takes to fill in those waterbars unless you see the trail without snow on it.  Downspout, too, with the mountain bike berms.  

BTW, we are still looking for snowmakers if anyone is looking for a job... day and night shifts available!


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## benski (Nov 23, 2014)

Heavens gate was fixed and they were testing it today.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2014)

benski said:


> Heavens gate was fixed and they were testing it today.



There are two ways to think about this latest situation.  One is that it didn't work out as hoped and it is what it is.  The other is that this was another fail and just demonstrates that they are not what they used to be.  Hell, Sugarloaf has been open now for two weeks.  If I was a passholder still I'd probably be quite disappointed, especially with the cold weather and snow.  Other places are eating your lunch.  It just seemed like the last few years they've "missed" opening early or on time for one of many reasons.  This time it is lifts...and after a season where they got a lot of bad PR over lifts and lift problems.  I understand that things happen, but they closed the first weekend of May and had all summer to do the work that needed to be done.    

I like Sugarbush, but I guess in hindsight that the good early seasons that I had there ('07, '08 ) were more due to the fact that they were lucky (early snow, early cold, no lift issues) than planning. 

And I am not taking anything away from the guys on the ground.  This really is a management thing IMHO.  They just don't seem "hungry" anymore and they are losing pace with the competition and becoming more of a subpar ski experience.


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## benski (Nov 23, 2014)

They have opened on time for the last couple of years. I heard heavens gate would have been on windhold saturday if it was not broken.


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## shadyjay (Nov 23, 2014)

For the past couple of years, we have opened top2bottom, and last year had both Jester and Upper OG.  The date we try to strive for is the Saturday before Thanksgiving.  Some years that actual calendar "date" varies, due to Thanksgiving's position.  We were also able to get Pushover open for Thanksgiving weekend last year.  During the 09/10 season, we missed the opening by a couple of weeks, but that was due to mother nature and her curveballs.   Back in the days when ME was the early mountain, I don't ever recall top2bot for opening weekend.

EDIT:  Just realized this is post #1000 in this thread!!!


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## machski (Nov 27, 2014)

Bit sad that the Bush could not get HG up and running with the overhaul when planned.  Okemo is making them look really bad now as they are weeks ahead of schedule on the Sunburst 6.  They are opening it this Saturday, a brand new lift install, and that is at least 2 weeks+ ahead of their original schedule.  Hope this is the last hikkup for Sugarbush this season, still one of my favs outside our home resort.


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## benski (Nov 27, 2014)

Heavans gate opened Monday. 


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## machski (Nov 28, 2014)

benski said:


> Heavans gate opened Monday.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Glad to hear that.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm wearing my Sugarbush hoodie for you all. As you can see Mount Ellen aka Sugarbush North is, and always will be, near my heart. 


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## BushMogulMaster (Dec 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> mount ellen aka sugarbush north is, and always will be, near my heart.



+1 qft


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## gostan (Dec 11, 2014)

Castlerock is opening today as early Sugarbush ski report claims another 10+ inches last night with much drier snow than the previous heavy wet foot of base building kind.  Should be a good but busy weekend. But better today and tomorrow for those who can make it up there.


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 11, 2014)

Did anyone ski Sugarbush today?  How is the natural stuff?


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## dmw (Dec 11, 2014)




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## MadMadWorld (Dec 11, 2014)

Impressive coverage


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## dmw (Dec 11, 2014)

It was deep. I stopped / fell as I approached a fallen tree blocking all of Lower Castlerock (big tree, all the way across); had to strap out and was nearly hip deep trudging / crawling under the tree. Awesome run though!

I saw a few sticks and rocks poke thru late in the day, but that's to be expected right? Coverage would have been impressive any time of the season. 

Drive home was brutal.


----------



## Madroch (Dec 12, 2014)

Dmw delivers for this thread...


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## shadyjay (Dec 12, 2014)

I was out on Thursday.  Didn't make it to the 'Rock as I felt content with all the options open off of Bravo.  Lower Birdland and Domino were some of the best runs I've taken on those trails in years.  Absolutely near perfect coverage.  No waterbars exposed at bottom of Lower Birdland.  Most rocks on the ledge covered up.Nice fluffy snow on top of the base.  Also did au' natural Upper Birdland, Murphys, Stein's, and Lower Snowball/Racers.  Only bad spot I encountered was the waterbars at the bottom of Racer's Edge.  Guess we'll need to make some snow there.

Here's a shot of Steins:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bSJx1zZd6Vg/VIu9ZayOxPI/AAAAAAAAUYY/T-JQBudsRrM/s640/IMG_2298.JPG


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## steamboat1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Not my pic but first tracks down Middle Earth yesterday.

Awesome


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2014)

Reading that Heaven's Gate was down this morning for "maintenance". You can't make this shit up.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Tin said:


> Reading that Heaven's Gate was down this morning for "maintenance". You can't make this shit up.


For what it's worth both the Snowdon triple & quad at K were down for awhile this afternoon.


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> For what it's worth both the Snowdon triple & quad at K were down for awhile this afternoon.




Tough but a summit lift on a Saturday just  days after 20". Just what the hell. At least you have a lot of other options at K and can always get up to Snowdon and make runs though other lifts or even the poma.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Tin said:


> Tough but a summit lift on a Saturday just  days after 20". Just what the hell. At least you have a lot of other options at K and can always get up to Snowdon and make runs though other lifts or even the poma.


Summit Express at Pico was also on hold.


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2014)

Just checked. 50 trails and the Outpost to open. That's great.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 13, 2014)

Tin said:


> Reading that Heaven's Gate was down this morning for "maintenance". You can't make this shit up.



The wheels on one of the towers was frozen so it got shut down for a while.  I did two laps late in the day on Spillsville and it was the best I have skied it in years


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## machski (Dec 13, 2014)

This storm caused lift headaches all over the place.  Okemo's new sunburst 6 was down for a while for a couple of days (even with the chair barn!) and Sugarloaf lost the two HSQ's thru part of today as well as skyline due to severe (like 3 inches on the lift!) icing!  I know we all love to ski, but heavy wet snow storms and cold weather do a number on mechanical lifts!


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## slatham (Dec 13, 2014)

I can buy that - everyone has reported delays etc due to icing. This type of snow is going to cause a lot of things to not work.


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2014)

How was it Tuesday until Friday? Just seems weird.


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## vonski (Dec 13, 2014)

They have been making snow on Ripcord.  So, maybe that contributed to the wheel being frozen.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2014)

Tin said:


> Tough but a summit lift on a Saturday just  days after 20". Just what the hell. At least you have a lot of other options at K and can always get up to Snowdon and make runs though other lifts or even the poma.



FWIW the rest of the lifts were running yesterday including North Lynx on all natural snow.  When I did ride the HG chair it was ridiculously windy and there was about 5 foot visibility at the top of the mountain.  Even when it was running there was no one taking the HG chair.


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## shadyjay (Dec 14, 2014)

I rode HG once on Saturday, and it was a "one and done" for me.  Gusty winds plus poor visibility.  Still, it was my first daylight ride on that lift for the season.  Today it was less windy and the visibility was "slightly" better (10 feet maybe).  The poor visibility and lack of crowds on the lift kept both Jester and Downspout in relatively good shape for a busy weekend.
  Then again, maybe it was all the new snow of the past week that helped keep the usual slick spots "at bay".


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## rocojerry (Dec 18, 2014)

anyone ski/ride sugarbush today? wondering what may be in store for a mt ellen opener tmrw!


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## shadyjay (Dec 19, 2014)

As of today, Sugarbush becomes the first resort in Vermont to be 100% open for the season.  Pretty incredible for so early in the season.  

However, the North Ridge chair at Mt Ellen isn't operational yet due to a delayed shipment on a part.  Win has permitted Mt Ellen passholders to ride at Lincoln Peak until the lift is ready.  Details in the latest "Win's Word" at sugarbush.com.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 19, 2014)

Was there on Sunday 12/14 and conditions were great!  I lapped Ripcord 5 times, because the soft snow was so good.  The visibility was practically zero from the low clouds and snow making.  However, the snow was so good it was totally worth it.  

Those new HKD tower mounted guns really produce a nice product.


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## rocojerry (Dec 19, 2014)

Mt Ellen was great today! trip report coming...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2014)

rocojerry said:


> Mt Ellen was great today! trip report coming...



Good TR.  Why no NRX?  Oh wait....



> Until upgrades on North Ridge are finished, Mt. Ellen season passholders may ski and ride at Lincoln Peak.



Why am I not surprised?  :roll:  Though it may appear that NRX is a redundant lift, anyone who has spent much time skiing "North" knows that it is a CRUCIAL lift and really separates this mountain from Lincoln Peak where the HSQ's there are merely "feeder" lifts.  NRX allows one to get some serious vertical done in a short time and delivers some good high elevation terrain.  It was probably one good thing that ASC did...although they did it half-assed as many Sugarbush skiers can recall.  

It seems like the mountain ops have only gotten worse since I left in 2011.  It's too bad because they used to have a top-notch mountain ops management team that got all the lifts running and ready before ski season and did a good job running the area.  

And I just watched the 12/18 "First Tracks" Report in which they used the term "base consolidation" to describe the r&*n event.  I have never heard that term before.....  :blink:


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## WWF-VT (Dec 20, 2014)

From Win's Word:

 At North Ridge, that is also the case.  The two communications lines are new--these connect the top terminal with the bottom and carry all the electronic impulses. So, too, are the drive and the electronic circuit boards in the terminal.  We hired lift manufacturer Dopplemayr to perform this work.  Unfortunately, the custom communications lines manufactured in Europe were over two weeks late in arriving, setting Dopplemayr’s schedule back. They have been working overtime and as fast as possible and now expect to have everything ready for the Tram Authority’s inspection early next week.  It is disappointing that they could not meet the goal of having it ready this Friday, but the delivery of the line was beyond their control. Because of this, we will be allowing any Mt. Ellen passholder to ride Slide Brook and ski Lincoln Peak until the work on North Ridge has been completed.  The Slide Brook lift is scheduled to spin on Saturday and then every day (weather permitting) until Mt. Ellen closes the last Sunday of March. Sunny D will also begin operation for the season on Saturday. - See more at: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-....eLVvAF8K.dpuf


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> From Win's Word:
> 
> At North Ridge, that is also the case.  The two communications lines are new--these connect the top terminal with the bottom and carry all the electronic impulses. So, too, are the drive and the electronic circuit boards in the terminal.  We hired lift manufacturer Dopplemayr to perform this work.  Unfortunately, the custom communications lines manufactured in Europe were over two weeks late in arriving, setting Dopplemayr’s schedule back. They have been working overtime and as fast as possible and now expect to have everything ready for the Tram Authority’s inspection early next week.  It is disappointing that they could not meet the goal of having it ready this Friday, but the delivery of the line was beyond their control. Because of this, we will be allowing any Mt. Ellen passholder to ride Slide Brook and ski Lincoln Peak until the work on North Ridge has been completed.  The Slide Brook lift is scheduled to spin on Saturday and then every day (weather permitting) until Mt. Ellen closes the last Sunday of March. Sunny D will also begin operation for the season on Saturday. - See more at: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-....eLVvAF8K.dpuf



Wow.  All I can say is those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  That is a huge mistake. 

As many longtime Sugarbush skiers and riders know, the NRX was the original GMX installed during a massiverive upgrade of North in 1991 or so.  It is a Poma lift with Poma's proprietary engineering and design.  In 1995 when LBO moved the lift, he used Doppelmayr and NOT Poma to do the work.  In simple terms, they had no idea WTF they were doing because it was a Poma lift.  When the work was done they came into the mountain ops office with a box of parts that they "didn't know" where they went on the lift.  From 1995-2002 it ran terribly.  

In 2002 *Win* paid Poma to fix the lift and do it right.  They did it at the same time that Poma installed the GMX.  It ran considerably better from then on with some hiccups every now and then.  Admittedly the old cadence chain system is now quite obsolete.  

So hiring Doppelmayr to come back and "update it" seems like a huge mistake.  No doubt they offered to do it for less money, but considering the importance of that lift and its history it should have been Poma to do that work.    

That's just MHO.


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## machski (Dec 20, 2014)

Well, I'm sure LBO using dopp to move it was tied into the package to do super bravo/gatehouse/slide brook which are all Dopp lifts.  That being said, either Dopp is having a bad go of things lately or they have a higher bill rate for express jobs.  Seems Dopp has been late in the northeast this year while LP moved at light speed given the install time for the all new Sunburst 6 at Okemo!


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## billski (Dec 20, 2014)

anyone been out today?


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## Tin (Dec 21, 2014)

Anyone see the new skinning policy?


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## rtjcbrown (Dec 24, 2014)

Here we go again. At Mt. Ellen, the GMX has been down all day, as well as the North Ridge Express. Summit Chair is open, but I don't know how you get to it.
Just read about the new Gadd Brook development being announced today. Kudos on your priorities!


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 24, 2014)

No more excuses anymore IMO. This is going to kill them if they screw up during Christmas. It's time to pay up to get this taken care of now instead of later!


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## billski (Dec 24, 2014)

Read the snow report. GMX has been down for some time for maintenance.  Hopefully back up in a few days.  Mt. E ticket is good at Lincoln Peak.


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## rtjcbrown (Dec 24, 2014)

billski said:


> Read the snow report. GMX has been down for some time for maintenance.  Hopefully back up in a few days.  Mt. E ticket is good at Lincoln Peak.


No offense Bill, but it is you who needs to read the snow report. It is the North Ridge Express that has been down for a while. It has been joined today by the Green Mtn Express. Good thing the Mt E ticket is good at Lincoln Peak because all you can get to is Inverness at Mellon


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2014)

rtjcbrown said:


> No offense Bill, but it is you who needs to read the snow report. It is the North Ridge Express that has been down for a while. It has been joined today by the Green Mtn Express. Good thing the Mt E ticket is good at Lincoln Peak because all you can get to is Inverness at Mellon



Right.  My understanding was that NRX has NOT opened yet....at least according to the reports I saw.  

Really hope that they get the lift thing fixed because if not they are toast.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2014)

rtjcbrown said:


> Here we go again. At Mt. Ellen, the GMX has been down all day, as well as the North Ridge Express. Summit Chair is open, but I don't know how you get to it.
> Just read about the new Gadd Brook development being announced today. Kudos on your priorities!



Who needs lifts when you can have an awesome new house?


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## WWF-VT (Dec 24, 2014)

FWIW - it's a rainy day here at Sugarbush and Mt Ellen was a ghost town.  Only place with activity was a few skiers/riders in the terrain park.  Why do people feel compelled to bitch about lift operations unless it effects them because they are here ? I didn't get details on why the GMX was down but it was running at 4 PM


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - it's a rainy day here at Sugarbush and Mt Ellen was a ghost town.  Only place with activity was a few skiers/riders in the terrain park.  Why do people feel compelled to bitch about lift operations unless it effects them because they are here ? I didn't get details on why the GMX was down but it was running at 4 PM



Lifts are kind of important....



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## rtjcbrown (Dec 24, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - it's a rainy day here at Sugarbush and Mt Ellen was a ghost town.  Only place with activity was a few skiers/riders in the terrain park.  Why do people feel compelled to bitch about lift operations unless it effects them because they are here ? I didn't get details on why the GMX was down but it was running at 4 PM



Bitching because I plan on going there


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 24, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - it's a rainy day here at Sugarbush and Mt Ellen was a ghost town.  Only place with activity was a few skiers/riders in the terrain park.  Why do people feel compelled to bitch about lift operations unless it effects them because they are here ? I didn't get details on why the GMX was down but it was running at 4 PM



Homer


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2014)

And I am hoping to visit Mt Ellen in February.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 25, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And I am hoping to visit Mt Ellen in February.


Don't go there, the lifts don't work & lower FIS will be closed anyway.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 26, 2014)

They were load testing the North Ridge chair this afternoon....inspection is pending.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 26, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Don't go there, the lifts don't work & lower FIS will be closed anyway.



 Good one!


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## tumbler (Dec 29, 2014)

From Win regarding Northridge Chair.   Just cannot seem to catch a break.  The park rats must be really bummed about Sunny D.

Further Update. It is still experiencing reset issues. Now we think it is in our brand new drive that Dopplemayr installed this summer. Needless to say, this is very frustrating and I am not at all pleased with Dopplemayr right now. They did put one of their top guys on a plane from Salt Lake. The lift is running but if it stopped again and we could not get a reset we would have to evacuate it on the diesel which takes a lot of time on this lift because of its length. Rather than put our guests at risk of that today, we are running it continuously and continuing the diagnosis and hopefully have it all figured out by tomorrow. 

 We do have three choices for our new Valley House lift, so how this turns out may influence my decision on the new lift.

 On top of that Sunny-D had to been shut down tomorrow. We seem to have a problem in the gear box, So it is being opened up. Hoping it is just the bearing which is an easy fix. This is a real inconvenience to those using the park and also to those looking for good beginner terrain off of Sunny-D.

 I really do apologize to all for these inconveniences. Hopefully, we get everything out of the way now.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

tumbler said:


> From Win regarding Northridge Chair.   Just cannot seem to catch a break.  The park rats must be really bummed about Sunny D.
> 
> Further Update. It is still experiencing reset issues. Now we think it is in our brand new drive that Dopplemayr installed this summer. Needless to say, this is very frustrating and I am not at all pleased with Dopplemayr right now. They did put one of their top guys on a plane from Salt Lake. The lift is running but if it stopped again and we could not get a reset we would have to evacuate it on the diesel which takes a lot of time on this lift because of its length. Rather than put our guests at risk of that today, we are running it continuously and continuing the diagnosis and hopefully have it all figured out by tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Hate to say it, but "told you so!" 


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## Plowboy (Dec 29, 2014)

Update:
Thanks. My team is really bummed. They pride themselves on giving everyone a great experience. 

Doppllemary tells us they are confident they know what the issue is and their guy will be here first thing in the morning to fix it. So we are expecting to have NRX running in the AM even though it may be delayed. Hopefully, I did not jinx things with this post.

Sunny-D will not run tomorrow and until we get the gear box open we will not know what the extent of the damage is. Tom Kerr who does repair work all over the world and is intimately familiar with Sunny-D was on the scene today and will let us know tomorrow what the fix is.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

Plowboy said:


> Update:
> Thanks. My team is really bummed. They pride themselves on giving everyone a great experience.
> 
> Doppllemary tells us they are confident they know what the issue is and their guy will be here first thing in the morning to fix it. So we are expecting to have NRX running in the AM even though it may be delayed. Hopefully, I did not jinx things with this post.
> ...



The funny thing is that a few pages back I suggested that Sunny D needed to be replaced and folks laughed at me.  Guess I was right again....


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 30, 2014)

Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist but it seems like a coincidence that lifts have been broken and now all of a sudden the trail count is way up.....trail preservation?


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## goldsbar (Dec 30, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Why do people feel compelled to bitch about lift operations unless it effects them because they are here ?



Easy answer for me.  I'd been going to Sugarbush once/year for a long weekend over the past several years.  Paid for full price tickets and full day lessons for the kids.  In other words, the customer they make money off of.  Almost every time there was some lift issue.  Broken lifts.  Wind holds when there was barely any wind.  You name it.

Love the mountain.  Last year I went to K instead.  Why?  Got tired of the lifts and so couldn't justify the extra hour drive.  I'll be back - eventually - because the skiing is far superior with Castlerock, etc.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The funny thing is that a few pages back I suggested that Sunny D needed to be replaced and folks laughed at me.  Guess I was right again....


Still laughing


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## gostan (Dec 31, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist but it seems like a coincidence that lifts have been broken and now all of a sudden the trail count is way up.....trail preservation?


 Many of us have determined that some of these so-called open trails will not feel the bottoms of our skis if we desire that the skis will survive.  

Good to see that they will finally be blowing snow on Steins.


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## Newpylong (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  All I can say is those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  That is a huge mistake.
> 
> As many longtime Sugarbush skiers and riders know, the NRX was the original GMX installed during a massiverive upgrade of North in 1991 or so.  It is a Poma lift with Poma's proprietary engineering and design.  In 1995 when LBO moved the lift, he used Doppelmayr and NOT Poma to do the work.  In simple terms, they had no idea WTF they were doing because it was a Poma lift.  When the work was done they came into the mountain ops office with a box of parts that they "didn't know" where they went on the lift.  From 1995-2002 it ran terribly.
> 
> ...



I rode the North Ridge Express 6 days every week from 1995-1999 and was only stuck on it once. For the most part, it was fine.


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## rocks860 (Dec 31, 2014)

gostan said:


> Many of us have determined that some of these so-called open trails will not feel the bottoms of our skis if we desire that the skis will survive.  [emoji12]
> 
> Good to see that they will finally be blowing snow on Steins.



Steins looked god awful on Saturday but people were still skiing it


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## rocks860 (Jan 12, 2015)

Been snowing all day here, didn't ski today but I'll definitely be out there tomorrow!


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## Tin (Jan 17, 2015)

North Ridge is now down for the weekend according to FB.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2015)

Ouch


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## steamboat1 (Jan 17, 2015)

I guess Win won't be placing an order with Dopplemayr for the new Valley House chair.:grin:


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## marcski (Jan 17, 2015)

What is the vintage on the North Ridge chair?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2015)

96


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> 96



Originally 1990 or 1991


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## shadyjay (Jan 17, 2015)

North Ridge was the original GMX, built by Poma, installed in 1990.  In 1995, ASC had Doppelmayr relocate it to its present location.  Up until a couple of years ago when the terminals were repainted, the bottom terminal side facing the woods still read "Green Mountain Express".


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## Not Sure (Jan 17, 2015)

shadyjay said:


> North Ridge was the original GMX, built by Poma, installed in 1990.  In 1995, ASC had Doppelmayr relocate it to its present location.  Up until a couple of years ago when the terminals were repainted, the bottom terminal side facing the woods still read "Green Mountain Express".



What is the life expectancy of a chairlift anyway ?


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 17, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> What is the life expectancy of a chairlift anyway ?




Well it can obviously vary widely but fixed grip is about 25-35 years. High speed 20-30 years.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

shadyjay said:


> North Ridge was the original GMX, built by Poma, installed in 1990.  In 1995, ASC had Doppelmayr relocate it to its present location.  Up until a couple of years ago when the terminals were repainted, the bottom terminal side facing the woods still read "Green Mountain Express".



Spot on as always 


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

Win learned his lesson. The last time that Sugarbush had Doppelmeyr come and work on that lift they messed it up big time. It's a Poma lift. It should be maintained by Poma


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2015)

I'd say 30 for a HSQ and 50 for a fixed grip is a good estimate.

I'm not sure of a HSQ in New England that has been fully replaced due to age instead of a capacity upgrade other than the Forerunner at Stowe.

The original Forerunner went in for the 1996 season.    

I'd say the top lift priorities at SB now are Heavens Gate and Northridge.  I'd put the Valley House replacement on the back burner until those two lifts have rock solid dependability


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say 30 for a HSQ and 50 for a fixed grip is a good estimate.
> 
> I'm not sure of a HSQ in New England that has been fully replaced due to age instead of a capacity upgrade other than the Forerunner at Stowe.
> 
> ...



Well to be fair the high-speed quads by Yan that were at Killington and Sunday River Have been refurbished and essentially replaced.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

And I think that the original four runner was in 1986. It had a lot of problems to during its first season. The technology on that lift actually is not very much different from the current North Ridge quad (cadence chain).


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2015)

Typo.....I meant 86.  I do believe it was the first HSQ in New England


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 17, 2015)

I can't think of many chairlifts close to 50 years old....maybe at smuugs? While they theoretically can go that long, they usually get replaced before that. Concrete tower footings being a big culprit.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2015)

Smuggs is exactly the old fixed grip lifts I had in mind.  They run remarkably well for their age.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Typo.....I meant 86.  I do believe it was the first HSQ in New England



Yes I think it actually was the first high-speed quad in New England. It certainly was ahead of its time.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I can't think of many chairlifts close to 50 years old....maybe at smuugs? While they theoretically can go that long, they usually get replaced before that. Concrete tower footings being a big culprit.



I think some of the problem with the concrete footings is that back in the day they did not use rebar. I know that Middlebury's double had that issue. I wonder if Smuggs has redone some of those footings.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

And I'm actually typing these posts as I am skiing...lol


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And I'm actually typing these posts as I am skiingView attachment 14993...lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Technically you're not actually _skiing _


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Technically you're not actually _skiing _



Touché sir, touché 


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## HowieT2 (Jan 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say 30 for a HSQ and 50 for a fixed grip is a good estimate.
> 
> I'm not sure of a HSQ in New England that has been fully replaced due to age instead of a capacity upgrade other than the Forerunner at Stowe.
> 
> ...



i disagree.  The valley house quad is a vast improvement in both capacity and improving the terminus and traverse area, not to mention loading from the base.  Heavens gate and nrx are fine capacity wise and the footings and towers are fine.  They are machines and there is no reason they can't be made to operate reliably, although right now that can't be said.  They need to get the nrx operating right.  It is vital to being able to efficiently ski the mtn.  Without it, you're limited to doing laps off the summit (which was -27 when I got up there this morning) or going all the way down to the base for the gmx.  Not efficient.
  The hg actually hasn't had a problem this season, so maybe they have that one figured out, but the nrx is perplexing.  One thing after another.


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## Tin (Jan 17, 2015)

Whoever is running the FB page is getting pissy.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

Tin said:


> Whoever is running the FB page is getting pissy.



I laughed at the "you're sounding like Q Burke" line.


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## Tin (Jan 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I laughed at the "you're sounding like Q Burke" line.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Loved the "Yes it does" reply to "600k doesn't fix much".


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## canobie#1 (Jan 18, 2015)

Even on busy days the valley house double gets very little attention from the guests. They should get the terminal to load at the bottom. Walking up that hill sucks. 
I think heavens gate needs to be replaced first. Preferably a high capacity fixed grip quad. Maybe add another trail from the top of the peak.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 18, 2015)

canobie#1 said:


> Even on busy days the valley house double gets very little attention from the guests. They should get the terminal to load at the bottom.


That's exactly what they're going to do from what I heard. I don't see how since there's a base lodge & old gondola terminal in the way.


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## Newpylong (Jan 18, 2015)

No they're not doing that. Same load, slightly different unload. 

The reason why guests ignore it is exactly because it is a double. So that whole side of the mountain is underutilized leaving Super Bravo mobbed.

PS here is a throwback picture  
http://www.chairlift.org/pics/sb/sb20.jpg


Heavens Gate and North Ridge don't to be replaced, they just need root cause fixes.


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## gostan (Jan 18, 2015)

I ski the VH Double all the time.  one trip up Bravo and never walk up the hill.  When Bravo is cold and the wind is coming from the wrong direction VH is the way to go.  And there is really little time difference in the  trip up compared to the combination of going up Bravo & skiing the traverse.  Personally, i wish that they would leave the unload where it is, but if they can permot the change, I do understand the need.


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## Tin (Jan 18, 2015)

Let's see if they start editing FB like Q. People seem to finally be pissed.


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## Plowboy (Jan 18, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> No they're not doing that. Same load, slightly different unload.
> 
> The reason why guests ignore it is exactly because it is a double. So that whole side of the mountain is underutilized leaving Super Bravo mobbed.
> 
> ...



Not same load according to this from Win (SkiMRV).

 "The plan is to take down the two MTN ops buildings downhill of the mushroom. There is a water plant that would remain but the rest of the area would maintain a retaining wall near where the existing foundation is and the area filled in with dirt and seeded. Loading would be approximately the middle of the mountain operations building. It would be spaced so as not to interfere with Bravo corral and the ski passage way from Gondolier past Bravo. it would provide great uphill out of the area."

"The only potential issue is that it mayl be closer than 50 feet from the Claybrook stream bank which is not allowed under the current ANR guidelines. Our position is we are grandfathered due to the existing building and we will be improving the areas because we will have less impermeable surfaces there. In our opinion is really will be environmentally better. This is very close to where the old Gondola bottom terminal once was."

The picture is the Spring Fling triple.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

So is NRX running?


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## Newpylong (Jan 18, 2015)

Plowboy said:


> Not same load according to this from Win (SkiMRV).
> 
> "The plan is to take down the two MTN ops buildings downhill of the mushroom. There is a water plant that would remain but the rest of the area would maintain a retaining wall near where the existing foundation is and the area filled in with dirt and seeded. Loading would be approximately the middle of the mountain operations building. It would be spaced so as not to interfere with Bravo corral and the ski passage way from Gondolier past Bravo. it would provide great uphill out of the area."
> 
> ...



Interesting, that differs from the initial permit application.

Yep, the Spring Fling Borvig.


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## canobie#1 (Jan 18, 2015)

The Spring Fling Triple is still going strong at one of the highest ranked amusement parks in the country.  Knoebel's in PA.

http://www.knoebels.com/index.php/scenic-skyride


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## Plowboy (Jan 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So is NRX running?


 My guess is mid to end of week. Motor is being sent Troy, NY to be rewired and baked.


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## Plowboy (Jan 18, 2015)

What I would do.   Leave VH where it is...as is.....put a new lift from the bottom (below VH-Lodge to left) to the top of Spring Fling. Bury Stein's and Spring Fling, ski till June. Beers and BBQ in front of the VH-Lodge......Spring Fling !!!

Basically put a new Spring Fling chair in, but bring it down to Claybrook.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

Plowboy said:


> My guess is mid to end of week. Motor is being sent Troy, NY to be rewired and baked.



Wow.  Sorry to hear that.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

canobie#1 said:


> The Spring Fling Triple is still going strong at one of the highest ranked amusement parks in the country.  Knoebel's in PA.
> 
> http://www.knoebels.com/index.php/scenic-skyride



Cool.  Check out those hangers and square towers.....


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## canobie#1 (Jan 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Cool.  Check out those hangers and square towers.....



What?  That's the spring fling......so...

http://www.chairlift.org/knoebel.html


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

canobie#1 said:


> What?  That's the spring fling......so...
> 
> http://www.chairlift.org/knoebel.html



Yep. Classic Borvig.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 19, 2015)

canobie#1 said:


> Even on busy days the valley house double gets very little attention from the guests. They should get the terminal to load at the bottom. Walking up that hill sucks.





steamboat1 said:


> That's exactly what they're going to do from what I heard. I don't see how since there's a base lodge & old gondola terminal in the way.





Newpylong said:


> No they're not doing that. Same load, slightly different unload.





Plowboy said:


> Not same load according to this from Win (SkiMRV).
> 
> "The plan is to take down the two MTN ops buildings downhill of the mushroom. There is a water plant that would remain but the rest of the area would maintain a retaining wall near where the existing foundation is and the area filled in with dirt and seeded. Loading would be approximately the middle of the mountain operations building. It would be spaced so as not to interfere with Bravo corral and the ski passage way from Gondolier past Bravo. it would provide great uphill out of the area."
> 
> "The only potential issue is that it mayl be closer than 50 feet from the Claybrook stream bank which is not allowed under the current ANR guidelines. Our position is we are grandfathered due to the existing building and we will be improving the areas because we will have less impermeable surfaces there. In our opinion is really will be environmentally better. This is very close to where the old Gondola bottom terminal once was."


Thank you sir. I knew I had read about extending the terminal lower somewhere but couldn't find the link this afternoon.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 30, 2015)

Hey, Canobie, thanks for posting that link!  Totally forgot that a lift from my favorite ski area went to my favorite amusement park.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Hey, Canobie, thanks for posting that link!  Totally forgot that a lift from my favorite ski area went to my favorite amusement park.



Hard to believe that it has been gone now for 13 years.


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Hard to believe that it has been gone now for 13 years.



I was just thinking about that lift when I was up there this year


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## bellowthecat (Jan 31, 2015)

They are reporting that the North Ridge lift is open again.  Anyone actually see it in action?


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## WWF-VT (Jan 31, 2015)

bellowthecat said:


> They are reporting that the North Ridge lift is open again.  Anyone actually see it in action?



Yes...I went to Lincoln Peak today while my son skied Mt Ellen and did ride the NRX.  Report was that Exterminator was great today.


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## Plowboy (Feb 1, 2015)

Gadd Brook Act250 permit

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/ANR/ANRWeb/Act250SearchResults.aspx?Num=5W1045-36


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## bellowthecat (Feb 5, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Yes...I went to Lincoln Peak today while my son skied Mt Ellen and did ride the NRX.  Report was that Exterminator was great today.



That's great news.  I love the Bush, but literally every single time I have been there (not that many, like 15 times) NRX wasn't running.  As a result I have only been to Ellen once, and even that was because Super Bravo and North Lynx were down at Lincoln.  Hoping to get back up later this month and really explore that area.


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## rocks860 (Feb 5, 2015)

I love lower fis but it hasn't been open the last 5 or so times I've been there.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 27, 2015)

Read in another thread that the Valley House side of the mountain will be closed sometime in April. They plan on starting the disassembly of the Valley House lift & blasting at the top for the new lift terminal. That means no Steins or Snowball late season this year.


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## benski (Feb 28, 2015)

Demolition is supposed to start April 6th and be finished by May. 


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## steamboat1 (Feb 28, 2015)

Trailboss would be interested to learn that Sugarbush signed a contract with Dopplemayr for the new Valley House lift.


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## benski (Feb 28, 2015)

Yeah. After failing so badly on north ridge this summer I would think management would be done with them. North ridge's reliability is significantly worse this year even though dopplemayr refurbished it.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 28, 2015)

I wonder if the new VH quad chair will be a carpet loading lift, anyone hear? The new Metro quad at Stowe is a Dopplemayr & is carpet loaded.


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## benski (Feb 28, 2015)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Yes it will be carpet loaded. 


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Trailboss would be interested to learn that Sugarbush signed a contract with Dopplemayr for the new Valley House lift.



Very interesting


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## machski (Mar 1, 2015)

benski said:


> Yeah. After failing so badly on north ridge this summer I would think management would be done with them. North ridge's reliability is significantly worse this year even though dopplemayr refurbished it.



Why would you think NRX would have anything to do with a new FGQ?  I mean after all, when LBO moved NRX, he had Dopp move a Poma lift and since has had Dopp refurbish it.  Not their original equipement, should have been moved by Poma originally and refurbished by them.  You really cannot compare that lift to anything that is pure Dopplemayr.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

machski said:


> Why would you think NRX would have anything to do with a new FGQ?  I mean after all, when LBO moved NRX, he had Dopp move a Poma lift and since has had Dopp refurbish it.  Not their original equipement, should have been moved by Poma originally and refurbished by them.  You really cannot compare that lift to anything that is pure Dopplemayr.



The issue is that Win hired Doppelmayr to do major work this past summer on NRX and they had a ton of problems.  As you said, it is a Poma and should be maintained by Poma folks.  I think we all expected them to use Poma or SkyTrac for the new lift and not Doppelmayr.  The truth is though that Doppelamyr does MANY more lifts than Poma and SkyTrac combined.  You may not see that in New England, but go out west and look (except for parts of Colorado).


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 1, 2015)

I was at Mt Ellen today and North Ridge was down for half the day. Crowds were light so it was easy to hop on the summit quad but still this really limits options for skiing as each run must be 2400 foot vert, and there's really no reason to go up to the summit most of the time.

Good day but I'll say they need more snow. I hit a lot of rocks today and there were a lot of obstacles in the woods. If what they have now turned into base and another good refresh or two before April-- we'll be good. It's not the depth that's the issue it's just they have no base under the most recent snow.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> I was at Mt Ellen today and North Ridge was down for half the day. Crowds were light so it was easy to hop on the summit quad but still this really limits options for skiing as each run must be 2400 foot vert, and there's really no reason to go up to the summit most of the time.
> 
> Good day but I'll say they need more snow. I hit a lot of rocks today and there were a lot of obstacles in the woods. If what they have now turned into base and another good refresh or two before April-- we'll be good. It's not the depth that's the issue it's just they have no base under the most recent snow.



So I was thinking about going to Sugarbush this past week, but the NRX issues and cold made me go elsewhere. I'll be honest.


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## machski (Mar 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The issue is that Win hired Doppelmayr to do major work this past summer on NRX and they had a ton of problems.  As you said, it is a Poma and should be maintained by Poma folks.  I think we all expected them to use Poma or SkyTrac for the new lift and not Doppelmayr.  The truth is though that Doppelamyr does MANY more lifts than Poma and SkyTrac combined.  You may not see that in New England, but go out west and look (except for parts of Colorado).



Dopp is way out in the lead this season for new lift installs all across the country.  Must be committed to win these bids (ie  $$ wins)


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm not sure why they couldn't work with both companies though.  Bring in Poma to fix their lift, hire Dopp to do the new one.  There's something to be said in business about not marrying into just one vendor.


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## benski (Mar 2, 2015)

They brought skytrak for to refurbish heavens gate. Win said on skimrv they were taking bids from all three manufacturers. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

One would think Dopp would be ruled out from working on the NRX given the history


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## HowieT2 (Mar 2, 2015)

I haven't heard anything about the new vhq being carpet loaded.  Could be but I doubt it.

as for the nrx, it's been 'nothing but problems since dopplemeyr worked on it in the offseason.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> I haven't heard anything about the new vhq being carpet loaded.  Could be but I doubt it.
> 
> as for the nrx, it's been 'nothing but problems since dopplemeyr worked on it in the offseason.



Bummer 


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## benski (Mar 2, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> I haven't heard anything about the new vhq being carpet loaded.  Could be but I doubt it.
> 
> as for the nrx, it's been 'nothing but problems since dopplemeyr worked on it in the offseason.



I think you missed this. 

http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/14393-New-VH-lift/page7?highlight=Carpet+loading


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## HowieT2 (Mar 2, 2015)

benski said:


> I think you missed this.
> 
> http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/14393-New-VH-lift/page7?highlight=Carpet+loading
> 
> ...



I stand corrected.  Thanks.


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## mrvpilgrim (Mar 3, 2015)

Heard rumblings over the weekend as part of the Valley house project they will be realigning reverse traverse(or should I say reverse uphill traverse) which runs from the top of Steins over to Murphys Glade. The new alignment would slope it down hill to line up across Murphys, Birdland and Jester to provide a straight shot at Heavens Gate Traverse. This wouldl greatly improve access to the Heavens Gate chair when Bravo is down. anyone else catch wind of this?


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## rocks860 (Mar 3, 2015)

mrvpilgrim said:


> Heard rumblings over the weekend as part of the Valley house project they will be realigning reverse traverse(or should I say reverse uphill traverse) which runs from the top of Steins over to Murphys Glade. The new alignment would slope it down hill to line up across Murphys, Birdland and Jester to provide a straight shot at Heavens Gate Traverse. This wouldl greatly improve access to the Heavens Gate chair when Bravo is down. anyone else catch wind of this?



In all the years I've been skiing there (probably like 30 at this point) I don't think I have ever used that trail


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2015)

Anyone heard a closing date for SB?  Thinking of a day or two in northern VT during spring break which runs from 4/3-4/11.  Ideally we would go up on 4/5.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 10, 2015)

mikec142 said:


> Anyone heard a closing date for SB?  Thinking of a day or two in northern VT during spring break which runs from 4/3-4/11.  Ideally we would go up on 4/5.



Sugarbush is usually open until early May


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## keyser soze (Mar 10, 2015)

I'll be there this Saturday.  Does anybody know how the mountain is skiing?


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2015)

keyser soze said:


> I'll be there this Saturday.  Does anybody know how the mountain is skiing?



As of Sunday, conditions were great.


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## CoolMike (Mar 10, 2015)

keyser soze said:


> I'll be there this Saturday.  Does anybody know how the mountain is skiing?



If you go up on Saturday do yourself a favor and find a way to also ski on Sunday.  The GFS and CMC (Operational runs) both show a nice snowstorm for Sugarbush on Saturday night into and through most of Sunday.

On an unrelated note - the reverse traverse trail takes you past Stein's woods and Egan's Woods - the entrance of which looks pretty tightly treed.  Anyone know if it opens up once inside the woods?  The pitch is reasonably steep - especially at Stein's Woods.  I haven't skied it yet myself - hence the question.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> If you go up on Saturday do yourself a favor and find a way to also ski on Sunday.  The GFS and CMC (Operational runs) both show a nice snowstorm for Sugarbush on Saturday night into and through most of Sunday.
> 
> On an unrelated note - the reverse traverse trail takes you past Stein's woods and Egan's Woods - the entrance of which looks pretty tightly treed.  Anyone know if it opens up once inside the woods?  The pitch is reasonably steep - especially at Stein's Woods.  I haven't skied it yet myself - hence the question.



they open up.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 10, 2015)

mikec142 said:


> Anyone heard a closing date for SB?  Thinking of a day or two in northern VT during spring break which runs from 4/3-4/11.  Ideally we would go up on 4/5.


From what I heard they will be closing all trails off the Valley House chair begining April 6 so they can start dismantling the old lift & start blasting for the new lift. All skiing will be on the Super Bravo side, Heavens Gate. Gatehouse & Castle Rock if they still have enough snow there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> From what I heard they will be closing all trails off the Valley House chair begining April 6 so they can start dismantling the old lift & start blasting for the new lift. All skiing will be on the Super Bravo side, Heavens Gate. Gatehouse & Castle Rock if they still have enough snow there.



That's going to screw up spring skiing operations.....

Actually, this is in Win's Word:



> I think we are in for a long and wonderful spring of skiing and riding.  Because the Valley House lift will be replaced, we are changing our spring skiing and riding routes. Extra snow has been made on Ripcord, Downspout, Gondolier, and Coffee Run, and we plan to run Super Bravo and Heaven’s Gate through April and hopefully the first weekend of May.



So that sounds like a good option.


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## rocks860 (Mar 10, 2015)

I would love to get back up there this year if possible but it looks like the earliest I could make it would be the end of this month


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> From what I heard they will be closing all trails off the Valley House chair begining April 6 so they can start dismantling the old lift & start blasting for the new lift. All skiing will be on the Super Bravo side, Heavens Gate. Gatehouse & Castle Rock if they still have enough snow there.



I had heard April 1st, but whatever.  the blasting is actually to widen the traverse which will be above the terminus of the new lift.


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## rocks860 (Mar 10, 2015)

So will that work eliminate snowball/spring fling/twist etc? That is really going to concentrate people on several trails


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## steamboat1 (Mar 10, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> So will that work eliminate snowball/spring fling/twist etc? That is really going to concentrate people on several trails


Yep, & Steins too.


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## Root16 (Mar 11, 2015)

*Finding freshies in South Beach with my bro*



Video took place on the morning of March 7, 2015


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## CoolMike (Mar 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> From what I heard they will be closing all trails off the Valley House chair begining April 6 so they can start dismantling the old lift & start blasting for the new lift. All skiing will be on the Super Bravo side, Heavens Gate. Gatehouse & Castle Rock if they still have enough snow there.



COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!

I will be making sure to have a chat with Win about it this weekend.  Seriously, fuck this shit - Spring skiing on Stein's was going to be sweet this year.


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## gmcunni (Mar 11, 2015)

Root16 said:


> Video took place on the morning of March 7, 2015



i kept waiting for you to hit a tree head on.

what part of the mountain is this?


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!
> 
> I will be making sure to have a chat with Win about it this weekend.  Seriously, fuck this shit - Spring skiing on Stein's was going to be sweet this year.



Do report back with how the chat goes...


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## keyser soze (Mar 11, 2015)

Root16 said:


> Video took place on the morning of March 7, 2015



Rocking the trees!!  Nice skiing and great video.


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## vonski (Mar 11, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> i kept waiting for you to hit a tree head on.
> 
> what part of the mountain is this?



That first part is the entrance to The Wild Slidebrook area and is Slidebrook.  You can see Melon in the distance a couple of times.  At least what it looks like to me.


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## Root16 (Mar 11, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> i kept waiting for you to hit a tree head on.
> 
> what part of the mountain is this?



The area we were skiing was called South Beach. I just followed my brother; I have a terrible sense of direction and orientation, so I never really got a good sense of where we were. We got dumped out near the bottom of a trail that runs under the detachable quad that takes us up to the slidebrook quad and also the triple that takes us to the "entrance to the Wild Slidebrook area".


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## vonski (Mar 11, 2015)

Root16 said:


> The area we were skiing was called South Beach. I just followed my brother; I have a terrible sense of direction and orientation, so I never really got a good sense of where we were. We got dumped out near the bottom of a trail that runs under the detachable quad that takes us up to the slidebrook quad and also the triple that takes us to the "entrance to the Wild Slidebrook area".


So did you enter from the Wild Slidebrook area and take a right turn to come back into the South area.  If you did I have skied that many times. tons of fun in that area.


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## Root16 (Mar 11, 2015)

vonski said:


> So did you enter from the Wild Slidebrook area and take a right turn to come back into the South area.  If you did I have skied that many times. tons of fun in that area.



Hmm... that sounds about right. I guess it'd be hard to tell if you recognized any of it as I'm sure it looks different every season. I know that we crossed under the Slidebrook chair at one point.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!
> 
> I will be making sure to have a chat with Win about it this weekend.  Seriously, fuck this shit - Spring skiing on Stein's was going to be sweet this year.



While Stein's holds snow well, the spring offering on Spring Fling, etc. really sucks IMHO.  Spring Fling in particular is quite large and does not hold snow well.  It also is really low.  

Bring back North!


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## keyser soze (Mar 11, 2015)

So what are the thoughts on weather this weekend?  Looks like precip, but not sure if snow or mix and how much?


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2015)

I think I'm gonna head up there for the day on the 28th to get one last sugarbush fix. Went the saturday after Christmas, January 10-17 and now. Nice book end (ish) to the season


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## WWF-VT (Mar 11, 2015)

keyser soze said:


> So what are the thoughts on weather this weekend?  Looks like precip, but not sure if snow or mix and how much?



Awesome day today skiing at Lincoln Peak - the sun came out late morning and soft snow was fun.  Twist and Moonshine had hero bumps and were today's favorites.  It's going to get cold again and lock it all up before the weekend. WCAX weather did not give much info on the anticipated weather event on Saturday into Sunday.  My guess is that it should be moderate snowfall at elevation.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Bring back North!



This.   Even if I possessed a million dollar property at South, I'd want North to be the Spring Skiing spot.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> This.   Even if I possessed a million dollar property at South, I'd want North to be the Spring Skiing spot.



I just am still surprised that they spent a bunch of money in 2002 to replace GMX and do other work at North to return it as the early and late season facility, and then abandoned that less than five years later.  Surely they did not earn their ROI.  I understand the reasoning about moving--housing, restaurants, etc.--but North is the better skiing product early and late season.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I just am still surprised that they spent a bunch of money in 2002 to replace GMX and do other work at North to return it as the early and late season facility, and then abandoned that less than five years later.  Surely they did not earn their ROI.  I understand the reasoning about moving--housing, restaurants, etc.--but North is the better skiing product early and late season.



Everything is at south and at that time of the season they aren't exactly seeing crowds.  They do run the cabin cat up there after the lifts close.

as for the weather, mid March so wouldn't be surprised to see snow at elevation only.  Close call.


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## CoolMike (Mar 12, 2015)

For this weekend for SB I agree its a close one.  GFS has a nice snow storm while Canadian models all show rain.  Even in the Canadian scenario I think there would be 2-4" of sloppy snow for Sunday.

I would hedge towards this being a nice snowstorm for the mountain though - elevation helps tremendously in these marginal set-ups.

I'm wondering how the skiing will be on Saturday after the re-freeze.  Right now my plan is to stick to the groomers and take it easy on Saturday and hope for some fresh snow to go nuts with on Sunday.


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## OffPeak (Mar 13, 2015)

Hey, 

Going to sugarbush next week Tue-Fri This will be my 1st trip. Taking my Wife and 2 sons 22/19yrs. What should I expect in terms of conditions?

Thx OP


----------



## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2015)

Anyone skied the bush lately? I was thinking of going next Saturday and wondering what the conditions are like. Also trying to figure out if I should bring my new skis or my old beater pair. If it's going to be thin out there I don't want to mess up my new ones. Thanks


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## steamboat1 (Mar 22, 2015)

Skied the Bush this past Tues. Still plenty of cover on natural trails as well as man made runs. Conditions will be dependant on the temperature the day you ski but lack of cover shouldn't be an issue.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2015)

Skied Sugarbush on Saturday. Not terrible.  Intermediate groomers were in good shape with the lone exception being Murphys, which was very icy.  Woods were kind of firm, they need snow. Castlerock was a "mistake", only hit it once. All in all it wouldn't be my choice of where to ski right now if you're not locked in. Go farther north.


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## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Skied Sugarbush on Saturday. Not terrible.  Intermediate groomers were in good shape with the lone exception being Murphys, which was very icy.  Woods were kind of firm, they need snow. Castlerock was a "mistake", only hit it once. All in all it wouldn't be my choice of where to ski right now if you're not locked in. Go farther north.



I'm only going for a day so sugarbush is pretty much the limit for how far north I can go. Is there anything better that far north or south of that?


----------



## steamboat1 (Mar 22, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> I'm only going for a day so sugarbush is pretty much the limit for how far north I can go. Is there anything better that far north or south of that?


Stowe might be in better shape, I don't know. Takes about the same time to get to Stowe as it does to get to Sugarbush off I-89.


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## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2015)

I'd prefer sugarbush over Stowe, especially since it's even more expensive at stowe


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## slatham (Mar 22, 2015)

Gonna rain everywhere this week. Unless back-side snow, the key will be temp and amount of sunshine. Low on both, firm. Sunny and warm, spring corn. I am hoping for the later as I want to go (and I doubt there will be enough back-side snow to make a difference)


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## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2015)

Looks like the forecast is rain thursday snow friday then 31 degrees on Saturday. That's the forecast for warren so who knows what the actual mountain will be lile


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## shadyjay (Mar 22, 2015)

We're in the middle of our latest thaw-freeze cycles (which seem to be occurring Saturday night into Tuesday).  Coverage is excellent right now just about everywhere on the mtn.  If you're going to explore Castlerock, that's the only area where there can be some "thin" cover, but that's to be expected up there.  

Elsewhere on the mtn, if it warms up, it'll soften things up.  We did get some 10" in the past week which helps to refresh things.  I actually went down Upper OG last Friday (bypassing the top headwall) and it was a delightful run.  

It all depends on your ability level and preference.  I have a couple friends who skied the woods today and said they were great.  We are not a mtn that grooms 100% of their terrain every night, so there is always a challenge.  And since the temps dropped from 42 degrees yesterday to zero this morning, things locked up.  It'll get better.  I'm not complaining, though... consistent awesome conditions reigned supreme from January until early March this season.


----------



## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2015)

I was there in early January and had a very nice empty mountain powder day so definitely not complaining. Want to get in one more day at sugarbush this season so hopefully saturday isn't bad


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## billski (Mar 22, 2015)

shadyjay said:


> ... consistent awesome conditions reigned supreme from January until early March this season.



Thanks for the color.   My memory must be fading; I don't remember January being anything to write home about this year, or last.  Maybe the last week of January.


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## bellowthecat (Mar 23, 2015)

Went last Friday and conditions were really pretty good.  Hardly any ice on the main trails and solid coverage everywhere I went.  Even Deathspout was in pretty good shape.  Some of the woods were skied off, but others were still in prime condition.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 23, 2015)

saturday was warm and consequently soft.  even got sticky down low, but the upper elevations were in very good shape.  Can't comment on the groomers.  Sunday was cold and so it hardened up, but there was about 2" of fresh dense snow, so the woods skied very nicely.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 23, 2015)

Was at Sugarbush this past Fri thru Sun.  
Friday, Lincoln Peak: Groomers in great shape. Lower mountain mapped glades > icy bumps.  non-map but obvious tree lines > no ice.  Bump trails (Castlerock etc) > miserable ice bumps. Except for Castlerock liftline which was in great shape below the rocky top part.
Saturday, mostly ME: Groomers > excellent.  trees > excellent.  Bump trails > Black Diamond & FIS were far better than expected (more snow piles than ice). Exterm, not as good.
Sunday, LP: Mostly lapped groomers which were icy (overall and increasingly at lower elev.) but edgeable (at least for me w/ a fresh ski tune).  The one tree lap I did from the top of Heaven's was still non-icy.  Organgrinder was in decent shape. (ice in between the bumps, but bumps still soft.)
So overall pretty good but not excellent IMO; they need either more snow or warmth & sun.

Edit: Forgot to mention it snowed heavily at Mt Ellen Saturday afternoon for maybe an hour. It stopped about the same time I jumped on SB back to LP.  Wondering if the squall happened at LP too or just ME?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

skifastr said:


> Bump trails *(Castlerock etc) > miserable ice bumps.*



That was quite an experience Friday, even with freshly worked skis it was "survival skiing", lol.  I should have known better when I saw there was practically nobody on the chair, and looking uphill the trails seemed empty.   I really wanted to do Middle Earth, but after getting down Castlerock I thought better of it and rejoined the gf for some casual/lazy intermediate groomers.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

Re: Castlerock

This will get a rise for sure.   

In all the years that I skied Castlerock, I have to say that I always thought it was overrated and usually had some of the worst skiing at the area thanks to marginal conditions and/or way too much traffic.  The majority of my runs over there were in the "one and done" category.  Of course I'm thinking anecdotally and it has been a while, so maybe memory is biased, but except for the awesome Spring of 2008 where the cover was deep, bumps soft, and crowds thin, I really did not spend much time over there.  I just think there are other areas at Sugarbush that ski better.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 23, 2015)

@BG: I can confirm Middle Earth sucked on Friday. You did not miss out!

@Trailboss: Objectively, I probably agree, even if it might be tough to admit. I remember the fear & pride I felt the first time I did a run there (as a kid with my dad). First time I skied there as an adult was a midweek powderday after a surprise November (1999) storm dumped ~3 ft. The memory of waistdeep untracked on Castlerock Run & Rumble is etched in my mind.  
Everytime I ski sugarbush I feel compelled to go there hoping (sometimes in vain) that it'll be good and without a long liftline. <shrug>


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 23, 2015)

Just thought of this.  Does Sugarbush still occasionally groom Middle Earth and/or Castlerock run?  I was told by a patroller that they did that occasionally when those run(s) got too beat up.  That was sometime in the mid/late 00's and wondering if they still do it.
A foot of fresh over groomed surface on Middle Earth would be a sweet run.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 23, 2015)

skifastr said:


> Just thought of this.  Does Sugarbush still occasionally groom Middle Earth and/or Castlerock run?  I was told by a patroller that they did that occasionally when those run(s) got too beat up.  That was sometime in the mid/late 00's and wondering if they still do it.
> A foot of fresh over groomed surface on Middle Earth would be a sweet run.



Yes, maybe 2 or 3 times a season.  the last time they groomed was a few weeks ago.  Thereafter, they didnt get as much snow as anticipated and so the bumps havent re-formed where it was groomed.

castlerock is ungroomed terrain so unless the weather is cooperating, conditions can be challenging.  That being said, until the thaw last week, it had been in great shape the last 2 months.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

skifastr said:


> @BG: I can confirm Middle Earth sucked on Friday. You did not miss out!
> 
> @Trailboss: Objectively, I probably agree, even if it might be tough to admit. I remember the fear & pride I felt the first time I did a run there (as a kid with my dad). First time I skied there as an adult was a midweek powderday after a surprise November (1999) storm dumped ~3 ft. The memory of waistdeep untracked on Castlerock Run & Rumble is etched in my mind.
> Everytime I ski sugarbush I feel compelled to go there hoping (sometimes in vain) that it'll be good and without a long liftline. <shrug>



I echo your comments re: going there in vain and the often long line.  It is what it is.  Sometimes it's good; sometimes not.  I bet that this season it has been pretty good.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> castlerock is ungroomed terrain so unless the weather is cooperating, conditions can be challenging.  That being said, *until the thaw last week, it had been in great shape the last 2 months.*



Figures.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Figures.



I love to give the "you should have been here last week" line to folks too :lol:


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## rocks860 (Mar 23, 2015)

I'll hit up castlerock every so often but it's not really why I go there. It's more of a perk Id it happens to be good


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## steamboat1 (Mar 23, 2015)

Yeah Castle Rock sucks.

Don't go there.


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## Newpylong (Mar 24, 2015)

Agree, stay away from it lol.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 24, 2015)

Say What?

From todays report:

Groomers buffed 48 trails last night, including the seldom smoothed Mall.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Say What?
> 
> From todays report:
> 
> Groomers buffed 48 trails last night, including the seldom smoothed Mall.



Wow.  They groomed the Mall?


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## HowieT2 (Mar 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  They groomed the Mall?



Yeah, Win said they needed to groom it in preparation for dismantling the towers and VH lift.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2015)

I fear what will become of the Mall.  I know they say they don't plan on widening it much, but I don't believe them.


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  They groomed the Mall?



Woa. I want pics


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Woa. I want pics



I honestly recall thinking that I might have seen it groomed once way back when.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I fear what will become of the Mall.  I know they say they don't plan on widening it much, but I don't believe them.



I'm fairly confident the only part being significantly widened is up top where the new terminus will be.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  They groomed the Mall?


Now people will be skiing it way to fast.:razz:


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Now people will be skiing it way to fast.:razz:



Yep, because grooming always makes people ski faster.  :lol:


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## benski (Mar 24, 2015)

The mall groomed. 

https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/photos/pcb.10153213531263384/10153213527848384/?type=1&theater


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## benski (Mar 24, 2015)

The mall groomed. 

https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/photos/pcb.10153213531263384/10153213527848384/?type=1&theater


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## steamboat1 (Mar 24, 2015)

benski said:


> The mall groomed.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/photos/pcb.10153213531263384/10153213527848384/?type=1&theater


Look at the speed that guy is carrying!


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## steamboat1 (Mar 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I honestly recall thinking that I might have seen it groomed once way back when.


In the MRV forum Win stated he remembers it being groomed about 9 years ago.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Look at the speed that guy is carrying!



Interesting.  I'd ski that too...even if it is death cookies.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

And re: grooming some of Sugarbush's traditionally natural terrain

I go back and forth.  I liked skiing some of the narrow trails groomed.  I also thought that it help "refresh" things after a thaw or long drought.  But after talking and riding with Bushmogulmaster, there is something to be said about over-compressing the snow pack such that it gets too firm.  Personally I thought that they had a good mix when they groomed some of the narrow runs and left others to go (Walt's Run, Semitough, Brambles, Upper Lookin Good, Moonshine, Twist, Lower Domino).


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## Scruffy (Mar 24, 2015)

benski said:


> The mall groomed.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/photos/pcb.10153213531263384/10153213527848384/?type=1&theater



That's just wrong at so many levels.


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## benski (Mar 25, 2015)

It had to be done sometime over the next to weeks to aid the demolition of the valley house. 


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 25, 2015)

Valley House is not being demolished, just the buildings in front of it.


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## Newpylong (Mar 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I fear what will become of the Mall.  I know they say they don't plan on widening it much, but I don't believe them.



They actually don't need to widen the line at all outside of branches that have encroached, and the USFS verifies permit vs what's done post installation. The Mall is plenty wide to accommodate the lift installation.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2015)

I agree; it is plenty wide.  It's just sometimes you see new lift installs and they increase trail width at the same time to increase skiing capacity.  

The Mall isn't "narrow" per se, but it's not some super wide boulevard ala Ripcord off Heaven's Gate.  That's what I wouldn't want to see happen.  

It's pretty well perfect as it is right now.


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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2015)

So anyone think this Saturday will be any good? Looks like rain thursday then snow friday and temps in the 20s on Saturday. Id really like to get up there one last time for the season but I don't want to make the trek if it's going to be a giant ice skating rink


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## bigbog (Mar 25, 2015)

Hoping that whatever crap comes tomorrow will not last long...:sad:
Think the mtn crews will be out to do whatever's best........wish someone would come up with huge tarps, made of some material, to cover trails...


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> So anyone think this Saturday will be any good? Looks like rain thursday then snow friday and temps in the 20s on Saturday. Id really like to get up there one last time for the season but I don't want to make the trek if it's going to be a giant ice skating rink



I have the same concerns.  depends on if we get snow on the back end, thursday night into friday and how much.  NWS point forecast for 3000' elevation as of this morning has 2-4".  tough call.


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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2015)

I think I'm gonna need to decide by tomorrow as Id like to save some money buying a ticket online.


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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2015)

Saw this on the skitheeast Twitter, no idea where this is coming from as everything I've read says minimal snowfall


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 25, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Looks like rain



Could you please refrain from using foul language on AZ?




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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2015)

It's been so long since I've seen it I'm not sure I'm familiar with the term


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## Newpylong (Mar 25, 2015)

That graphic is BS, most of the region is getting r*ain. Saturday is going to be terrible after the rain/freeze - but Sunday is supposed to be sunny and high 30s. Should soften up


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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2015)

Even with snow on Friday? I don't expect anything like that graphic but the forecast does show snow on friday


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## slatham (Mar 25, 2015)

Gonna rain everywhere, but the models have turned colder on the backside and some snow will fall. As its gonna be cold, you need at least 4". But that might happen, especially up North at elevation. Keep an eye on it and realize you may not know until Friday.


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## gostan (Mar 25, 2015)

I received an email from Sugarbush announcing that their Price on the Boomer weekday pass will be held at $99 through May 6th.  What was of much more interest to me was that the minimum age of their all mountain 7 Senior Pass has been reduced from 70 to 65 and is priced at $599 through May 6th.  It finally pays off to be an old geezer at SB.  $1099 for the regular all mountain 7 thru May 6th. Win. Isf be trying to fill up all of that new uphill capacity.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

Well I guess I'm just gonna go and see what happens. I don't know that any place else is going to be better and I want to get in one last sugarbush fix in for the year. Praying for snow!


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## mrvpilgrim (Mar 26, 2015)

If you are going to be wet anyways might as well bring some old stuff and take a run at the pond skimming contest Saturday


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

mrvpilgrim said:


> If you are going to be wet anyways might as well bring some old stuff and take a run at the pond skimming contest Saturday



Why would I be wet anyways? It's not supposed to rain on Saturday... And I'd prefer not to fall in a pond when it's 25 degrees outside


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Well I guess I'm just gonna go and see what happens. *I don't know that any place else is going to be better *and I want to get in one last sugarbush fix in for the year. Praying for snow!



Smuggs, Stowe, and Jay Peak will all be better.   Go north if "better" is your primary concern.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



BenedictGomez said:


> Smuggs, Stowe, and Jay Peak will all be better.   Go north if "better" is your primary concern.



Sugarbush is basically the limit as to how far I can justify for a day trip. Jay would basically be 5 hours each way. Smuggs is 4 and a half. Stowe is probably about the same distance but 25 bucks more for a lift ticket, will it actually be any better being that close?


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## steamboat1 (Mar 26, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Stowe is probably about the same distance but 25 bucks more for a lift ticket, will it actually be any better being that close?


Advance ticket purchase for Sugarbush is $82, Stowe $89. You will need to purchase a $5 RFID card for Stowe if you don't already have one.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Advance ticket purchase for Sugarbush is $82, Stowe $89. You will need to purchase a $5 RFID card for Stowe if you don't already have one.



I do not have one, haven't been there in years. Liftopia has sugarbush for 81, only have 2 day Stowe tickets for 178. My question is will there really be any difference between sugarbush and Stowe


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## WWF-VT (Mar 26, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> I do not have one, haven't been there in years. Liftopia has sugarbush for 81, only have 2 day Stowe tickets for 178. My question is will there really be any difference between sugarbush and Stowe



Depending on weather that comes through your best bet might be the upper half of Mt Ellen for the best conditions.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

Well the weather channel app is now showing snow on Saturday up there too


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## slatham (Mar 26, 2015)

You guys need better weather skills.....

It's snowing above 2,000' right now in North Central Vt. Snow levels will drop this evening to 1,500 with 2-4"', more at the summits. Could be some lingering snow showers tomorrow - who knows how much at elevation. 

I'll bet Heavens Gate, castle Rock, North Linx and Summit never got rain, and pick up 4"+.

Wish I could go......


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

Sorry bro, I'm no weatherologist


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## steamboat1 (Mar 26, 2015)

Just get in the car & drive. Stop with the theatrics.


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## zyk (Mar 26, 2015)

Was there today.  Snow only from heavens gate up.  Rain below but turned to all snow around 5 pm.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2015)

zyk said:


> Was there today.  Snow only from heavens gate up.  Rain below but turned to all snow around 5 pm.



How did it ski?


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## zyk (Mar 26, 2015)

Excellent


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## rocks860 (Mar 27, 2015)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Well got my ticket, the snow report says 6 inches up top but who knows is that's real. Hoping for more snow today


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## benski (Mar 27, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Well got my ticket, the snow report says 6 inches up top but who knows is that's real. Hoping for more snow today



6inches till you get about 500 feet down from the top then like 2 inches. The upper mountain is good. 


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## rocks860 (Mar 27, 2015)

Well then maybe I'll just lap paradise all day


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## benski (Mar 27, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Well then maybe I'll just lap paradise all day



I spent half my day on heavens gate.


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## shadyjay (Mar 27, 2015)

Worked Heaven's Gate for the past two days and got it again tomorrow.  Rode Paradise twice today, my first time on that trail in 2 years.  Conditions on it couldn't have been better.  Excellent coverage, nice snow.  That 6" was pretty dry up top but got more moist the lower you got.  Temps were surprisingly mild today, but gonna be about 10 degrees colder tomorrow.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah, the snow up top was somewhat dense but dry.  Great day.


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## rocks860 (Mar 27, 2015)

shadyjay said:


> Worked Heaven's Gate for the past two days and got it again tomorrow.  Rode Paradise twice today, my first time on that trail in 2 years.  Conditions on it couldn't have been better.  Excellent coverage, nice snow.  That 6" was pretty dry up top but got more moist the lower you got.  Temps were surprisingly mild today, but gonna be about 10 degrees colder tomorrow.



Well then I'll be seeing you tomorrow!


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## rocks860 (Mar 28, 2015)

Today was a good day. Trip report later


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## CoolMike (Apr 17, 2015)

Anyone know what the glade to the skier's right off of Birch Run is called?

There are two narrow entrances but once inside the glade there are a few really cool lines.  Its not on the map.

Thanks!


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## benski (Apr 17, 2015)

It is called the Orchard and the Emerald Forest. I think the Orchard is the lower one. The upper one used to have a snow making hydrant in front of it. I think management had it moved to improve access to the glade.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 17, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> Anyone know what the glade to the skier's right off of Birch Run is called?
> 
> There are two narrow entrances but once inside the glade there are a few really cool lines.  Its not on the map.
> 
> Thanks!



Sweet!  I would never have found that myself.
I love posts like this.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 17, 2015)

Orchard is parallel to birch run down to castlerock connection.  Emerald forest you traverse farther in towards castlerock.  It splits and the upper traverse requires you to cut back left to get to this great line down eventually leading out to the bridge.  Just don't be a yahoo and go too far right from that upper traverse.  Steep walled creek.  Been there. bad.


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## Plowboy (Apr 17, 2015)

Years ago these type post's would have been a floggable offence!!!! Have fun with all of the moguls and bobsled runs in the woods. Be kool and rock-on!!


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## HowieT2 (Apr 18, 2015)

Plowboy said:


> Years ago these type post's would have been a floggable offence!!!! Have fun with all of the moguls and bobsled runs in the woods. Be kool and rock-on!!



i hear Ya and am cognizant of that debate, but the entrances are fairly obvious from the trail so anyone curious could access them regardless of knowing what they are called.

video of the top third of emerald forest after the traverse.  Following my son who was 14 at the time.

http://youtu.be/wPLUhmyhm1g


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## chuckstah (Apr 29, 2015)

Ski and tee this weekend. Free golf with lift ticket purchase. 9 holes will be open.  Walking only.


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## dlague (Apr 30, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> Ski and tee this weekend. Free golf with lift ticket purchase. 9 holes will be open.  Walking only.



Well I will be there on Saturday


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## WWF-VT (May 1, 2015)

Stein's will be open via walking the Reverse Traverse. I'll be on the mountain Saturday and Sunday.


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## benski (May 1, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Stein's will be open via walking the Reverse Traverse. I'll be on the mountain Saturday and Sunday.



They are having a competition where you try to do the most laps between 10 and 3 on stein's. They are calling it the stein's derby.


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## steamboat1 (May 2, 2015)

Why not, Steins still looks to be covered side to side, top to bottom. I've always said if Sugaarbush blew as much snow as K does on Supe, Steins would be the late season winner. Maybe with the new chair they'll go for it next year. There's no money in it, just bragging rights (marketing).

Trail has no character though, no curves, might even be considered wide.:smile:


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2015)

Sugarbush doesn't have the long built up NYC clientele to successfully go late into May like K does.

I'll take Steins and Sugarbush 10 times out of 10 over Superstar and Killington, but I can see why most of the NYC market doesn't want to drive the extra hour after already driving 4 to 6 to get as far as K.


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## Savemeasammy (May 2, 2015)

Take the quality bumps that usually form on Superstar and put them on Steins.  Then you'd have something.  


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## steamboat1 (May 3, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> Take the quality bumps that usually form on Superstar and put them on Steins.  Then you'd have something.


Heh? Steins bumps are consistently better than those on Superstar. With the exception of late season Superstar rarely has bumps except for on the edges of the trail down low. Superstar is usually groomed every 2-3 days (sometimes more) while Steins see's a groom maybe every 2-3 weeks (if that).

Killington has got carried away with their grooming if you ask me. During the height of winter it's hard to find a bump run on the mountain. I think they are trying to compete with their neighbors to the south who for the most part are known for their grooming. K is definitely not the same as some people might remember it.


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## Savemeasammy (May 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Heh? Steins bumps are consistently better than those on Superstar. With the exception of late season Superstar rarely has bumps except for on the edges of the trail down low. Superstar is usually groomed every 2-3 days (sometimes more) while Steins see's a groom maybe every 2-3 weeks (if that).
> 
> Killington has got carried away with their grooming if you ask me. During the height of winter it's hard to find a bump run on the mountain. I think they are trying to compete with their neighbors to the south who for the most part are known for their grooming. K is definitely not the same as some people might remember it.



Killington is mostly an early and late season play for me, so it usually has bumps when I ski it.  But my point was more that the bumps on Steins - on the few times that I've been - have been bad.  They have always been way too far apart. 




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## CoolMike (May 4, 2015)

I really like the bumps on Steins.  I like how far apart they are!

Steins is a fair bit steeper than Superstar so the spacing helps me to carve a little instead of just windshield-wiping / whip-turning / whatever you call it.


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## WWF-VT (May 4, 2015)

Stein's was a lot of fun this weekend.   Soft snow and the 5-8 minute hike resulted in limited number of people that gave it a try.






[/IMG]


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## SkiingInABlueDream (May 4, 2015)

^^^ Yeah, that looks pretty sweet to me.  But I get that the spacing is uninspiring to ppl who zipperline.


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## dlague (May 4, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Stein's was a lot of fun this weekend.   Soft snow and the 5-8 minute hike resulted in limited number of people that gave it a try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ripcord provided the same fun.  Just more people!


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## dlague (May 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Sugarbush doesn't have the long built up NYC clientele to successfully go late into May like K does.
> 
> I'll take Steins and Sugarbush 10 times out of 10 over Superstar and Killington, but I can see why most of the NYC market doesn't want to drive the extra hour after already driving 4 to 6 to get as far as K.



I would have to agree!  Steins has consistent pitch where SS has the headwall, then flattens out then steepens again where everyone puts the brakes on.


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## Domeskier (May 4, 2015)

dlague said:


> I would have to agree!  Steins has consistent pitch where SS has the headwall, then flattens out then steepens again where everyone puts the brakes on.



Lower middle SS had some nice lines yesterday.  Upper middle was a bit of a wasteland.  The course at the top was getting really nice on Saturday, but lost something on Sunday when it was no longer cordoned off.  There were some really good lines down at the bottom on Sunday.  Never skied Stein's, so I cannot compare.  Skied some really nice bumps elsewhere at Sugarbush, but signature runs usually don't bump up well for some reason.

[Ignore the pic below - meant to post a pic of SS but stole the wrong one from Cornhead's post and cannot remove it]


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## deadheadskier (May 4, 2015)

Stein's can get the GS style bumps because they groom it too often and as mentioned, being a signature trail it tends to draw the wrong kind of skiers to make good bumps.  Better bumps are next door on the Mall.

I prefer Stein's over Superstar because it's steeper and more consistently pitched.  Also, while not narrow, it's not a football field wide.  I'd give the edge on mogul quality to Superstar though.  Apparently they're not all that great mid-season, but I find them fantastic in the Spring when I'm more likely to visit K.


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## Savemeasammy (May 4, 2015)

I'm not sure if sugarbush ever seeds bumps, but stein's would be a great candidate for it.   3 or 4 lanes on one side or the other...

That pic above is exactly what I picture when I think of the bumps on Stein's - and it's how it looks whenever I am there.  


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## Newpylong (May 4, 2015)

In my 4 years of living in the Valley I can count the times I skied Stein's on 1 finger   It just really needs the right amount of sun...


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## steamboat1 (May 4, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> In my 4 years of living in the Valley I can count the times I skied Stein's on 1 finger   It just really needs the right amount of sun...


Which it gets very little of due to it's exposure. This is why I say Steins would last longer than Superstar given equal amounts of snow.


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## HowieT2 (May 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Which it gets very little of due to it's exposure. This is why I say Steins would last longer than Superstar given equal amounts of snow.



well, fwiw, they didnt make as much snow on steins this season as they usually do because of the valley house lift work.  But as is evident there is still good coverage.

For whatever reason, I didnt ski steins all that much this year as I felt the bumps didnt set up as well as in the past.
I agree about the Mall having better lines.  The Mall never gets groomed but Steins does only occasionally.


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## rocks860 (May 9, 2015)

Does anyone know if they're going to be running the bravo chair this summer with the construction on the new valley house lift? We're going up there in August and would love to take bravo up again and hike around.


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## steamboat1 (May 9, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Does anyone know if they're going to be running the bravo chair this summer with the construction on the new valley house lift? We're going up there in August and would love to take bravo up again and hike around.


Yes, starting June 27. More info at sugarbush.com.


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## rocks860 (May 9, 2015)

Excellent, thanks. So nice up there in the summer and practically empty last time we went


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## WWF-VT (May 10, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Does anyone know if they're going to be running the bravo chair this summer with the construction on the new valley house lift? We're going up there in August and would love to take bravo up again and hike around.



There are a lot better hikes in the Mad River Valley area than taking the Bravo chair at Lincoln Peak 

Http://www.madrivervalley.com/activities/hiking-walking-and-trekking


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2015)

Bump.  

Progress on the new lift:




















































These are from the SB Facebook Page.  Anyone know if they are reusing the terminal somewhere else or if they sold it to another place?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2015)

I also liked this picture.....






And this one:






And this one:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2015)

Looks like the top of the new lift:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2015)




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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


>



Looks like that snowmaking pipe took a beating.  Surprised they didn't remove it before doing the regrading work.


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## rocks860 (Jun 9, 2015)

Can't wait to see how it's moving along when we're up there in august


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## Tin (Jun 10, 2015)

Over/under on days down this year?


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## benski (Jun 10, 2015)

Tin said:


> Over/under on days down this year?


can't be that many. It only runs on weekend and holidays and it did not run before mount ellen opened this year.


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## EPB (Jun 10, 2015)

So are they going to bring the start of the lift down below that older lodge? I can't remember what the final verdict was with that.


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## benski (Jun 10, 2015)

They are bringing the lift below the lodge. The lower terminal will be were the mountain ops building is. I also heard it will be a carpet loading lift.


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## jimmck (Jun 10, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> So are they going to bring the start of the lift down below that older lodge? I can't remember what the final verdict was with that.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2015)

benski said:


> They are bringing the lift below the lodge. The lower terminal will be were the mountain ops building is. I also heard it will be a carpet loading lift.



I was wondering if it would be a conveyor lift. That would be great.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Jun 10, 2015)

Same lift as Meadows quad at Stowe. See how easy they are to load..:lol:

In fact ask Nick what he thinks of carpet loaded lifts.


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## dlague (Jun 11, 2015)

http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155...i.com/11558/www/nepa/97755_FSPLT3_1633162.pdf

Other details:

WARREN — Sugarbush Resort plans to replace the Valley House Lift this spring with a new Doppelmayr Fixed-Grip Quad. The new Valley House Quad will increase the uphill capacity of the current lift from 748 to 1800 people per hour and cut the ride time to approximately 8 minutes. The lift should help eliminate any lift lines in the base area and provide a reliable back-up lift to the Super Bravo Express Quad.

The base of the new Valley House Quad will include a loading conveyor–allowing for easier loading and increased lift speed–and will be located where the current mountain operations building now sits. The new lift will also terminate lower, between towers 13 and 14 of the current lift on The Mall, which will eliminate the intersection of people off-loading from the lift with those skiing and riding on Valley House Traverse.

“The Valley House Lift project will really take the pressure off the base area on busy days by significantly increasing our uphill capacity. Also, the re-positioning of the lift will make it more accessible to our guests, and will alleviate congestion on Valley House Traverse,” said Sugarbush Resort President Win Smith.

The project is expected to cost around $3 million, including the lift purchase and ancillary costs related to the lift install and relocation of existing business areas.

Sugarbush has received their permit from the U.S. Forest Service and is in the process of securing Act 250 and Town of Warren permits. The project is expected to begin on Monday, April 6th, at which point access to Gadd Peak trails will be mostly shutdown including Valley House Traverse, Reverse Traverse, Stein’s Run, Lixi’s Twist, Moonshine, Spring Fling, Snowball, Racer’s Edge, Coffee Run, and Cat’s Meow. The designated spring skiing routes will change for the remainder of the 2014/15 season and include Birdland, Organgrinder, Jester, Ripcord, Domino, and Gondolier, all of which are accessed by both the Super Bravo and Heaven’s Gate chairs. Additional snow was made on these trails to provide snow depths well into spring.

“Our intention, as in the past,” Smith adds, “is to be open seven days a week through Sunday, April 26th at Lincoln Peak, and to reopen for one final weekend on May 2nd and 3rd.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2015)

Bump.  Progress.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 7, 2015)

I hope this means all approvals are in place.  This new lift will be a significant improvement for the weekends.


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## mrvpilgrim (Jul 7, 2015)

I was up at the mountain over the 4th
The mountain Ops building has been completely removed
Heard the lower drive terminal being shown loaded onto a trailer on prior a post has been sold to Haystack
Also ski patrol, lift maintenance,  and mountain OPs will temporarily occupy the mushroom this season until a more permanent solution is found


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 7, 2015)

mrvpilgrim said:


> Also ski patrol, lift maintenance,  and mountain OPs will temporarily occupy the mushroom this season until a more permanent solution is found



Why would ski patrol need space there, when they're already located under Timbers?


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## Plowboy (Jul 7, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Why would ski patrol need space there, when they're already located under Timbers?



Locker rooms were in the old Gondi building.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Why would ski patrol need space there, when they're already located under Timbers?



That's the medical/ortho clinic.  ski patrol locker room was in one of the removed structures.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2015)

More recent pics:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2015)

More pics of work.....


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## deadheadskier (Jul 17, 2015)

Looks like they really haven't widened The Mall much if at all, which is great.


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 18, 2015)

Excellent pics, keep 'em coming!


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## cdskier (Jul 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Looks like they really haven't widened The Mall much if at all, which is great.



Didn't they widen it a bit before this past winter? The treeline on skier's left seemed to have been cut back slightly. Early season from the lift you could see what appeared to have been the remnants of trees that were cut along the trail edge before the snow covered it up.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2015)

No sure. Last winter was the first season in years I didn't make it to Sugarbush.


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## benski (Jul 20, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Didn't they widen it a bit before this past winter? The treeline on skier's left seemed to have been cut back slightly. Early season from the lift you could see what appeared to have been the remnants of trees that were cut along the trail edge before the snow covered it up.



Found the remains of some trees the hard way on a powder day. Trail is all of a sudden no longer even from edge to edge. Definitely widened but only on the right side. 


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## HowieT2 (Jul 29, 2015)

From this afternoon.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> From this afternoon.



Interesting.  Getting on and riding the first part will offer an interesting view and perspective with it being that close to the lodge.


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 30, 2015)

First world problems with this chairlift.   This lift won't even run midweek if the HSQ is running.  I would have preferred to see this $$$ used on a chairlift to develop a new pod such as around lower fis.


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## benski (Jul 30, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> First world problems with this chairlift.   This lift won't even run midweek if the HSQ is running.  I would have preferred to see this $$$ used on a chairlift to develop a new pod such as around lower fis.



I doubt the old valley house would have lasted much longer. The lift was in its 50s. 


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 30, 2015)

benski said:


> I doubt the old valley house would have lasted much longer. The lift was in its 50s.
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Sure.  But a backup chairlift for a pod is a 1st world problem - a nice-to-have and not a necessity.


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## Newpylong (Jul 30, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Sure.  But a backup chairlift for a pod is a 1st world problem - a nice-to-have and not a necessity.



And building a new trail pod by Lower FIS is a necessity?

 Having a back up for the majority of Lincoln's terrain is a good investment. Why would it run mid week anyway? That's throwing $ out the window.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 30, 2015)

Thinking the new Valley House Chair is unnecessary is crazy talk.  

The skiing sucks near lower FIS


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Thinking the new Valley House Chair is unnecessary is crazy talk.
> 
> The skiing sucks near lower FIS



Nothing to see at Mount Ellen either.  Stay at Lincoln Peak


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## steamboat1 (Jul 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Nothing to see at Mount Ellen either.  Stay at Lincoln Peak


Absolutely, nobody skis Bravo or Bravo woods anyway. They only ride Super Bravo


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## cdskier (Jul 30, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> And building a new trail pod by Lower FIS is a necessity?
> 
> Having a back up for the majority of Lincoln's terrain is a good investment. Why would it run mid week anyway? That's throwing $ out the window.



Completely agree. I have no issues with the VH lift replacement and think it was absolutely the best potential lift decision they could have made at the moment. I see no other lift that needs a major replacement/upgrade.

While expanding to some new terrain somewhere would be nice, ensuring a viable backup plan is in place for one of your key lifts is much more important. I cringe anytime Bravo goes down on a weekend for any reason (wind, mechanical, etc). Once last season Bravo went down while I was lapping HG and I had no idea. I did think it was a tiny bit strange the HG area wasn't getting more crowded, but didn't focus on it too much. Then I decided to go back to the base and that's when I realized why HG had so few people. Bravo was down and no one could get to the top. Lines from the bottom on VH and GH were insane at that point. A VH replacement will significantly help this scenario.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Completely agree. I have no issues with the VH lift replacement and think it was absolutely the best potential lift decision they could have made at the moment. I see no other lift that needs a major replacement/upgrade.
> 
> While expanding to some new terrain somewhere would be nice, ensuring a viable backup plan is in place for one of your key lifts is much more important. I cringe anytime Bravo goes down on a weekend for any reason (wind, mechanical, etc). Once last season Bravo went down while I was lapping HG and I had no idea. I did think it was a tiny bit strange the HG area wasn't getting more crowded, but didn't focus on it too much. Then I decided to go back to the base and that's when I realized why HG had so few people. Bravo was down and no one could get to the top. Lines from the bottom on VH and GH were insane at that point. A VH replacement will significantly help this scenario.



Having regularly maintained and functional lifts would also solve that problem.  :dunce:  Just saying.


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## cdskier (Jul 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Having regularly maintained and functional lifts would also solve that problem.  :dunce:  Just saying.



Even brand new and/or perfectly maintained lifts can experience unexpected mechanical issues. I have no issues with the lift maintenance at SB. They invested a significant amount of money last summer to overhaul a number of the lifts (and yet mechanical issues still happened because some things simply just happen no matter what you do). And then there's wind holds which have absolutely nothing to do with maintenance...


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## machski (Jul 31, 2015)

As well, on that side of the mountain, spring fling was taken out several years ago reducing lift capacity.  Upgrading VH to a quad will be significant capacity relief to Lincoln base on peak times.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 31, 2015)

VH replacement was definitely the right call over new terrain pod on Ellen.  

I agree that the terrain pod drawn up for lower FIS looks compelling, but I doubt it brings in the increased skier visits to cover the cost.  That type of project depending on the number of trails would likely cost 3 to 4 times as much as this lift project.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Getting on and riding the first part will offer an interesting view and perspective with it being that close to the lodge.


Agreed.  The view from the mushroom will be cool.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Sure.  But a backup chairlift for a pod is a 1st world problem - a nice-to-have and not a necessity.


It's not a backup during peak operations when they needed more uphill capacity.  The old lift terminus and trail merger was not safe.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Having regularly maintained and functional lifts would also solve that problem.  :dunce:  Just saying.


Not entirely.  The pod system relies on the upper mtn lifts to spread skiers out.  So early season before castle rock and north Lynx are open there was too much demand for the base lift capacity vegan when the open lifts were operating.
frankly, this is a no brainer from multiple perspectives.

im very happy with the way mt Ellen is now.  Would it be intriguing to be able to lap runs in lower fis area?  Absolutely.  But understanding that any expansion there or above Inverness would only happen with a lot more people and significant real estate development, I'd leave well enough alone.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Even brand new and/or perfectly maintained lifts can experience unexpected mechanical issues. I have no issues with the lift maintenance at SB. They invested a significant amount of money last summer to overhaul a number of the lifts (and yet mechanical issues still happened because some things simply just happen no matter what you do). And then there's wind holds which have absolutely nothing to do with maintenance...



True, but Sugarbush has, until recently, had a lot of problems.  I recall there being a problem here and there in my years there, but the 2013-2014 season was really bad from what I heard.  Last season I believe was better.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 31, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but Sugarbush has, until recently, had a lot of problems.  I recall there being a problem here and there in my years there, but the 2013-2014 season was really bad from what I heard.  Last season I believe was better.


Not at Mt. Ellen it wasn't. North Ridge Express was down more than it ran the first half of the season.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not at Mt. Ellen it wasn't. North Ridge Express was down more than it ran the first half of the season.



That's right.  And that's what happens when you hire someone other than the manufacturer to do said work.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Not entirely.  The pod system relies on the upper mtn lifts to spread skiers out.  So early season before castle rock and north Lynx are open there was too much demand for the base lift capacity vegan when the open lifts were operating.
> frankly, this is a no brainer from multiple perspectives.
> 
> im very happy with the way mt Ellen is now.  Would it be intriguing to be able to lap runs in lower fis area?  Absolutely.  But understanding that any expansion there or above Inverness would only happen with a lot more people and significant real estate development, I'd leave well enough alone.



This. 

Even if the new VH lift doesn't run mid-week in normal circumstances (i.e. all lifts operating as planned), it will still be operating during the days when, you know, SB actually generates the majority of its skier visits - weekends and holidays.  Beyond that, it provides critical back-up for the inevitable times when Bravo or GH lift are down and base capacity is pinched.  When you layer in the fact that SB brought the bottom terminal to the base of the mtn, fixed the dangerous clusterf*ck at the top, reduced ride time by 30% and limited capacity on the quad to avoid overcrowding on that pod, this is an absolute home run.  I've been a pretty frank critic of their decision-making around the GH lodge, the painfully slow snowmaking upgrades, early/late season focus on LP and most other on-mountain decisions.  This is very different - they've done it right for a change.

As Howie said, any new pod at Ellen will cost multiples of the $3M they spent on this lift.  And if the track record of Win's ownership is any indication, you can rest assured that there will be a long period of real-estate development beforehand to generate the necessary funds.  And FWIW, the real game changer over there IMO would be Upper Inverness rather than Lower FIS.  Nothing they can do on Lower FIS that isn't already skiable/accessible w/o a hike, and in our global warming reality, I'd rather be placing my bets on upper elevation terrain that's all above 2500' rather than a lower elevation pod that tops out around that level.


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## machski (Jul 31, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> VH replacement was definitely the right call over new terrain pod on Ellen.
> 
> I agree that the terrain pod drawn up for lower FIS looks compelling, but I doubt it brings in the increased skier visits to cover the cost.  That type of project depending on the number of trails would likely cost 3 to 4 times as much as this lift project.



And if you could ever get that approval through in VT these days....


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2015)

Tin Woodsman said:


> This.
> 
> Even if the new VH lift doesn't run mid-week in normal circumstances (i.e. all lifts operating as planned), it will still be operating during the days when, you know, SB actually generates the majority of its skier visits - weekends and holidays.  Beyond that, it provides critical back-up for the inevitable times when Bravo or GH lift are down and base capacity is pinched.  When you layer in the fact that SB brought the bottom terminal to the base of the mtn, fixed the dangerous clusterf*ck at the top, reduced ride time by 30% and limited capacity on the quad to avoid overcrowding on that pod, this is an absolute home run.  I've been a pretty frank critic of their decision-making around the GH lodge, the painfully slow snowmaking upgrades, early/late season focus on LP and most other on-mountain decisions.  This is very different - they've done it right for a change.
> 
> As Howie said, any new pod at Ellen will cost multiples of the $3M they spent on this lift.  And if the track record of Win's ownership is any indication, you can rest assured that there will be a long period of real-estate development beforehand to generate the necessary funds.  And FWIW, the real game changer over there IMO would be Upper Inverness rather than Lower FIS.  Nothing they can do on Lower FIS that isn't already skiable/accessible w/o a hike, and in our global warming reality, I'd rather be placing my bets on upper elevation terrain that's all above 2500' rather than a lower elevation pod that tops out around that level.



Upper Inverness would be sweet.


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## cdskier (Jul 31, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but Sugarbush has, until recently, had a lot of problems.  I recall there being a problem here and there in my years there, but the 2013-2014 season was really bad from what I heard.  Last season I believe was better.



I skied nearly every weekend of the 2013-2014 season from Jan to May (and did a bunch of midweek skiing in December). Were there issues? Yes. I think overall they were exaggerated a bit though. HG had some significant issues for sure that year (I missed getting stuck on it the day people had to be evac'd by about 5-10 minutes). Overall SB addressed them though and did major overhauls of a bunch of lifts. If they had done nothing, then I could see an argument to be made on this topic.

This past year was much better (with the exception of NRX at ME). Although even for NRX I don't blame SB. There were detailed explanations of the issues they ran into on the MRV forum from Win. I'd chalk it up to a lot of bad luck on that one. The motor had to be shipped out to be rebuilt even though it was still about 4 years short of the recommended time to need that to happen. I doubt other ski areas do proactive maintenance on items 4 years before they are recommended to be done by the lift manufacturers...


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## cdskier (Jul 31, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Upper Inverness would be sweet.



I'll agree there...


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I'll agree there...



How about we keep upper Inverness for ourselves. :angry::angry:  

Seriously, don't see it happening.  There is a massive amount of investment that would need to go into mt Ellen along with installing a new lift and cutting new trails.  To capitalize on the investment you would need a new or redone base lodge (which my understanding is would require a significant rebuild of the sewage system) and probably a new glen house.  So you're talking a lot of condos that need to be sold.  judging by the buildout of the lp village, win and company are more inclined towards slow incremental steps.  And they haven't even finished at lp.  They have 3 more units there which at the rate they're going will take 3 years.  Fwiw-I think that's when we'll see either a new or expanded valley house lodge, or a mid mtn lodge.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 1, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> And FWIW, the real game changer over there IMO would be Upper Inverness rather than Lower FIS. I'd rather be placing my bets on upper elevation terrain that's all above 2500' rather than a lower elevation pod that tops out around that level.





thetrailboss said:


> Upper Inverness would be sweet.


From what I understand they don't own or have leasehold to any of that land. It's the reason why the lift line that was cut years ago was never developed. They f'd up.


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## HowieT2 (Aug 1, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> From what I understand they don't own or have leasehold to any of that land. It's the reason why the lift line that was cut years ago was never developed. They f'd up.



That's only partly correct.  That old lift line was cut on land a piece of which was not owned by the resort but most of the terrain is owned by sb and that wouldn't be an issue in developing the pod.


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## cdskier (Aug 1, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> And they haven't even finished at lp.  They have 3 more units there which at the rate they're going will take 3 years.



I think it will be much longer than 3 years to finish the build out of condos at LP. I just don't think the demand is there for all these high-end condos. From what I heard they almost didn't sell enough of Gadd Brook to even break ground.


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## dlague (Aug 1, 2015)

All this talk about My Ellen.  I have never had an issue with the lift layout I like the way that side is.  I will have to look at a little closer but......  VH had to go and I am sure it was not an option I also like the new location at the base.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 1, 2015)

Replacing VH was a good move. It's been awhile since Sugarbush put any money into new lifts. The only other lifts Win has put in since he took over 10+ years ago has been GMX over at Mt. Ellen & the Castle Rock double I believe. Most of his other resort investment has been for off mountain improvements ie; hotel, condo's, base lodge etc. which I believe was mostly built using EB-5 money, not his own money. It's good that he's building out LP but once he's done there really isn't any room for terrain expansion at LP. Mt. Ellen on the other hand has room for terrain expansion which has already been discussed in this thread. If he wants Sugarbush to continue to grow in the future I think the only room to grow is at Mt. Ellen. Of course only after he's finished with his plans for LP


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## HowieT2 (Aug 1, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I think it will be much longer than 3 years to finish the build out of condos at LP. I just don't think the demand is there for all these high-end condos. From what I heard they almost didn't sell enough of Gadd Brook to even break ground.



well, that's at 800k for a 2br.


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## cdskier (Aug 2, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> well, that's at 800k for a 2br.



Exactly...which is crazy. I'm very happy in my 2br condo just up the road that didn't cost me anywhere near that much. I can still ski back to my condo if I really want to, although I usually just take the Mtn Condos shuttle instead.

On the one hand SB talks about wanting to get more younger people hooked on skiing for the long term (i.e. the original goal of the Four20s pass), but then they go and build condos that are way out of reach for the vast majority of people (especially the younger crowd that they need for the future). I'd say they should build more reasonably priced condos, but I understand that just isn't cost effective to do and would severely cut into the profits that they need to use to pay back the remaining EB5 investors.

Oh well...C'est la vie...


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## WWF-VT (Aug 2, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Exactly...which is crazy. I'm very happy in my 2br condo just up the road that didn't cost me anywhere near that much. I can still ski back to my condo if I really want to, although I usually just take the Mtn Condos shuttle instead.
> 
> On the one hand SB talks about wanting to get more younger people hooked on skiing for the long term (i.e. the original goal of the Four20s pass), but then they go and build condos that are way out of reach for the vast majority of people (especially the younger crowd that they need for the future). I'd say they should build more reasonably priced condos, but I understand that just isn't cost effective to do and would severely cut into the profits that they need to use to pay back the remaining EB5 investors.
> 
> Oh well...C'est la vie...



You can't fault Sugarbush for trying to maximize revenue/profit from the sales of prime real estate at the base of the mountain when there are plenty of available condos for sale "just up the road" that are affordable for a larger potential market.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 2, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I understand that just isn't cost effective to do and would severely cut into the profits that they need to use to pay back the remaining EB5 investors.


Which sounds like a ponzi scheme to me. According to Win himself the monies from the sale of Gadd Brook condos is being used to pay back some of the original EB-5 investors that funded the build out of the base area. I assume he's talking about the hotel, base lodge, school house etc. According to Win 18 of the original 40 EB-5 investors have been redeemed. How are the EB-5 investors in Gadd Brook supposed to get payed back if the monies from that project is being used to pay back investors in another project? I guess the answer is start another project & use the monies from that to pay back Gadd Brook investors. Eventually someone is going to be left holding the bag.


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## jimmck (Aug 2, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Which sounds like a ponzi scheme to me. According to Win himself the monies from the sale of Gadd Brook condos is being used to pay back some of the original EB-5 investors that funded the build out of the base area. I assume he's talking about the hotel, base lodge, school house etc. According to Win 18 of the original 40 EB-5 investors have been redeemed. How are the EB-5 investors in Gadd Brook supposed to get payed back if the monies from that project is being used to pay back investors in another project? I guess the answer is start another project & use the monies from that to pay back Gadd Brook investors. Eventually someone is going to be left holding the bag.


You're assuming that there was another round of EB-5 investment to fund the development of Gadd Brook.

From what I read, Sugarbush used a single round of EB-5 funding to date.  

"In 2004, Sugarbush worked with the EB-5 financing program to raise $20 million for development of the Lincoln Peak base area. Of the forty investors in the resort’s EB-5 program, 18 investors have been redeemed. According to Smith, proceeds from the sale of Gadd Brook will go towards redeeming the other 22 investors in the program."

http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/june/gadd-brook-slopeside-sugarbush-resort-breaks-ground


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## machski (Aug 2, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Replacing VH was a good move. It's been awhile since Sugarbush put any money into new lifts. The only other lifts Win has put in since he took over 10+ years ago has been GMX over at Mt. Ellen & the Castle Rock double I believe. Most of his other resort investment has been for off mountain improvements ie; hotel, condo's, base lodge etc. which I believe was mostly built using EB-5 money, not his own money. It's good that he's building out LP but once he's done there really isn't any room for terrain expansion at LP. Mt. Ellen on the other hand has room for terrain expansion which has already been discussed in this thread. If he wants Sugarbush to continue to grow in the future I think the only room to grow is at Mt. Ellen. Of course only after he's finished with his plans for LP



Incorrect on your lifts, Castlerock was an ASC (well, LBO Holdings at the time) install.  Win's group has only the GMX and now VH as installs.


----------



## benski (Aug 2, 2015)

machski said:


> Incorrect on your lifts, Castlerock was an ASC (well, LBO Holdings at the time) install.  Win's group has only the GMX and now VH as installs.



Castlerock is the opposite of what the ASC wanted, which was to replace it with an express quad. The Castlerock double has a lower uphill capacity than the single chair. Are you sure the asc installed that lift. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2015)

benski said:


> Castlerock is the opposite of what the ASC wanted, which was to replace it with an express quad. The Castlerock double has a lower uphill capacity than the single chair. Are you sure the asc installed that lift.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



To be fair, I think that ASC started it and then handed the project over to Win after the sale in 2001.  

ASC ran Sugarbush in 2000-2001.  In the spring of 2001 the State informed ASC/Sugarbush that the Castlerock Lift would not pass inspection and needed replacement.  Poma replaced it that summer.  At the time they were in the process of selling it to Win; I'm pretty sure that Win did not get the keys to the place until that fall.

In 2001 it was ASC, not LBO.  LBO did the $28 million of work in 1995, but that did not include the Castlerock Chair.  That said, they DID want to widen those trails and put in a HSQ, but it never happened.


----------



## vonski (Aug 2, 2015)

[h=2]The Summit Ventures Era (2001-present)[/h]Today Sugarbush is owned and operated by Summit Ventures NE, LLC, as partnership of a few individuals which is majority owned by Win Smith, Jr. All investors in Summit Ventures are skiers and riders and devoted to the long-term success of the Mad River Valley and Sugarbush. They have a vision for the Resort that is very much the way Damon & Sarah Gadd and Jack Murphy envisioned it nearly 49 years ago. They believe that life is truly better here in the Mad River Valley. They are committed to making Sugarbush a better place, and they believe that guests can become better too at the things they love doing here. Since acquiring the Resort in 2001, the Castlerock and Green Mountain Express chairlifts were replaced, the snowmaking system continues to be upgraded each year, new grooming equipment has been purchased, the famed Robert Trent Jones Golf course has been significantly upgraded, and the new Gate House Lodge was completed in December 2006. The refined slope side residences of Clay Brook also opened in December 2006. In 2013 construction was completed on the new Rice Brook Residences, private homes linking Lincoln Peak village to historic Sugarbush Village. 


Above is from Sugarbush site!


----------



## cdskier (Aug 2, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> You can't fault Sugarbush for trying to maximize revenue/profit from the sales of prime real estate at the base of the mountain when there are plenty of available condos for sale "just up the road" that are affordable for a larger potential market.



Oh I completely understand it. I just think it will take much longer than they originally thought to reach the full build out of the original development plan. I just don't see the demand being there.



			
				jimmck said:
			
		

> From what I read, Sugarbush used a single round of EB-5 funding to date.



My understanding as well is that there was only 1 round of that type of funding done. Maybe they are using more traditional financing for the money needed to build the new condos. That would make sense if they supposedly needed to sell a certain amount before breaking ground. The banks probably wouldn't give a loan if a certain percent aren't sold. They want to be sure they will get their money. 50% of the units being sold might cover the construction costs. Then the other 50% once they are sold are "profit" that go back to pay back the EB-5 investors (50% was just an example, I have no idea if that's the real number).



			
				benski said:
			
		

> Castlerock is the opposite of what the ASC wanted, which was to replace it with an express quad.



Glad ASC never got what they wanted. I can't see a quad of any kind being in the CR area.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 2, 2015)

jimmck said:


> You're assuming that there was another round of EB-5 investment to fund the development of Gadd Brook.
> 
> From what I read, Sugarbush used a single round of EB-5 funding to date.
> 
> ...


Well the cost for the build out is supposedly upwards of $100m. 40 investers at  a 1/2 mil each is only $20m. Where's the rest of the money comimg from? Besides Sugarbush didn't have to show they created any new jobs. They only had to show they saved them being revenue was down over 20% at the time.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Well the cost for the build out is supposedly upwards of $100m. 40 investers at  a 1/2 mil each is only $20m. Where's the rest of the money comimg from? Besides Sugarbush didn't have to show they created any new jobs. They only had to show they saved them being revenue was down over 20% at the time.


Amazingly, the owners of SB not only have their own capital, they can borrow from banks too.  Imagine that!  Was that question satire or something?  Is the EB-5 program the only way ski areas are able to fund capital investments in your universe?

BTW, the Smith on the end of Win's name is the same Smith from Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith.   You do the math.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2015)

Tin Woodsman said:


> BTW, the Smith on the end of Win's name is the same Smith from Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith.


Yes he was a lucky sperm.


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes he was a lucky sperm.



Tha's the most dumbass comment that you have added to this thread so far.  WTF is your problem with how Sugarbush is financing it's expansion over the past 10+ years ?  Why don't you just stay at Killington and save your attempts at witty comments for KillingtonZone.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Well the cost for the build out is supposedly upwards of $100m. 40 investers at  a 1/2 mil each is only $20m. Where's the rest of the money comimg from? Besides Sugarbush didn't have to show they created any new jobs. They only had to show they saved them being revenue was down over 20% at the time.



where did you get that 100m number from???  seems high to me.


----------



## rtjcbrown (Aug 3, 2015)

Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> where did you get that 100m number from???  seems high to me.


Since the completion date for the project is 2013 I'd assume that figure doesn't include Gadd Brook.

https://eb5projects.com/projects/500-sugarbush-ski-resort


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 3, 2015)

rtjcbrown said:


> Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx



There is really nothing good over there.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2015)

rtjcbrown said:


> Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx



Try getting approval from the Forest Service. Lincoln Peak is on leased land whereas the land at Mt. Ellen is owned by the resort.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Tha's the most dumbass comment that you have added to this thread so far.  WTF is your problem with how Sugarbush is financing it's expansion over the past 10+ years ?  Why don't you just stay at Killington and save your attempts at witty comments for KillingtonZone.


I'm sure he had to scrape & claw his way up the corporate ladder being his father was one of the founders. Sorry you took offense to the name I called him but the phrase was commonly used on the street for people like him.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 3, 2015)

rtjcbrown said:


> Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx



No thank you.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Since the completion date for the project is 2013 I'd assume that figure doesn't include Gadd Brook.
> 
> https://eb5projects.com/projects/500-sugarbush-ski-resort


I wouldnt put much faith into what's reported on that link.  The scope of the project has changed considerably over the years.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 3, 2015)

rtjcbrown said:
			
		

> Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx





HowieT2 said:


> No thank you.



Howie just wants to keep everything undeveloped to himself at both LP and ME 8)

Technically there is room to expand in that area. There was even an old plan floating around in SB's Vegetation Management plan from a number of years ago with it mapped out. Whether they actually would want to do this or could even get approval is another story. I'd rather leave LP alone though personally.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2015)

rtjcbrown said:


> Is the there really no more room for terrain at Lincoln Peak? It sure looks like there is, especially between CR and North Lynx



The exact same development maps that show the Upper Inverness and lower FIS terrain pods show a lift and trails in between CR and NL.

I'm with MMW I would not want to see that happen.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 3, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Howie just wants to keep everything undeveloped to himself at both LP and ME 8)
> 
> Technically there is room to expand in that area. There was even an old plan floating around in SB's Vegetation Management plan from a number of years ago with it mapped out. Whether they actually would want to do this or could even get approval is another story. I'd rather leave LP alone though personally.



guitly as charged.

seriously though, that area is south facing, so snow retention on open trails would be a problem.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I'm sure he had to scrape & claw his way up the corporate ladder being his father was one of the founders. Sorry you took offense to the name I called him but the phrase was commonly used on the street for people like him.


Say what you want, but irrespective of where he topped out or how he got there, he is unarguably the best steward/owner SB has had in many decades, perhaps since its founding.  In an era where skiing is no longer a growth sport, and climate/snowfall seem increasingly variable, he has guided SB to a path of sustainable operations in a manner that none of his predecessors were willing/able to do.  Sure, ASC brought SB into the modern age with its orgy or much-needed lift and snowmaking investments (albeit with 2nd rate materials that are the source of many system issues today), but then they cut and run.  Win is deeply invested in not just the resort, but the Mad River Valley more broadly and looks to be here for the long-term.  He has used EB-5 money opportunistically but appears to prefer other methods, much of which comes from his own pocket or is based on cash flows of the operating business.  Not sure why anyone would slag him for that unless they have an uninformed agenda.

Oh wait, is that steamboat1's music I hear??!!


----------



## machski (Aug 3, 2015)

Yes, Otten and ASC proposed a HSQ and widened/snowmaking  for Castlerock.  But when the locals screamed murder, they backed off, got together, and decided to leave it as is.  When the new double went in, it was designed with very low capacity to match the old one and engineered with minimal towers to open up liftline a bit more.  Ironically, the engineering had to be redone the following season as the lift had major shake/vibration issues initially.


----------



## Plowboy (Aug 3, 2015)

The local bumper sticker read " More Rock - Less Otten "


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2015)

Sugarbush would not be what it is today without Less. Massive snowmaking reservoir, much added coverage on mountain, new lifts, etc. Yet, they made some bone headed decisions like the Snail and Slidebrook. He always was two steps ahead and one back.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 4, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> SHe always was two steps ahead and one back.



I think that's a great way to describe the Otten/ASC regime.  No one else relized the need for expanding terrain.


----------



## rtjcbrown (Aug 4, 2015)

I would love to see the original map/plans for Slide Brook


----------



## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

Doesn't look like it was going to be much, based on this article.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Doesn't look like it was going to be much, based on this article. View attachment 17238



Great find!  Would love to see the whole article.


----------



## rtjcbrown (Aug 4, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Doesn't look like it was going to be much, based on this article.



Thank you!


----------



## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

Here is the last of it. I did read a couple of different stories for the development of this area. Some talked a little more about trails and all had stated that a base area was out of the question.


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## benski (Aug 4, 2015)

I looked up the plans for slide brook a while ago and saw an earlier description which said there would be many more lifts. I guess they can up with a big plan then scaled it down a few times until they ended up with the one lift they have now. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2015)

I remember the old ski or skiing article in the 1980's I think where the plan was laid out to develop all of slide brook.  I think the claim was largest ski area in N. America.  There were many, many lifts.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2015)

It looks like they actually got forest service approval at one point.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/20/us/vermont-protest-to-widening-of-ski-area-wins-concession.html


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> It looks like they actually got forest service approval at one point.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/20/us/vermont-protest-to-widening-of-ski-area-wins-concession.html



Looks like Vermont hasn't changed much in 30 years....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## machski (Aug 5, 2015)

Slide Brook died from environmental groups.  It was tagged as Black Bear habitat and is now off limits to development.  Slidebrook Express is the way it is for multi reasons.  Otten wanted to link Lincoln and Ellen over the top (one reason Castlerock was originally proposed to go HSQ and snowmaking, because the summit link would have been from there).  That was killed due to sight lines from the valley.  So they went to where slide Brook currently is.  They looked at a gondola due to the length but tower heights would be too great with cabins and again be seen too much from the valley.  So they went with the HSQ, as the height clearance was less an no reflective cabins or windows to cut down on visibility from valley.  There you have it, lots of hurdles to jump in ski resort improvements.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Vermont hasn't changed much in 30 years....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



So, in retrospect, 30 years later, do you think leaving slidebrook undeveloped was a good or bad thing?
IMHO, it is better that it was left untouched.  But thats just me, who takes his kids backcountry skiing/biking when they've never been to disneyland.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Vermont hasn't changed much in 30 years....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



So, in retrospect, 30 years later, do you think leaving slidebrook undeveloped was a good or bad thing?
IMHO, it is better that it was left untouched.  But thats just me, who takes his kids backcountry skiing/biking when they've never been to disneyland.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> So, in retrospect, 30 years later, do you think leaving slidebrook undeveloped was a good or bad thing?
> IMHO, it is better that it was left untouched.  But thats just me, who takes his kids backcountry skiing/biking when they've never been to disneyland.



I think it is fine as it is.  I was just commenting on the protests.  I can't imagine what a "summit-to-summit" lift would look like.  And if Win and Company are having issues keeping the SBX running due to costs, can you imagine the cost of a gondola?


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 5, 2015)

Probably better untouched.  There seems to be plenty of skiing around for the New England market.  Developing slide brook would probably just take market share away from other ski areas causing them to close.  It seems so hard for mountains to be sustainable such as Saddleback, Burke, Sugarloaf, Tenney, etc.   I can't fathom who is going to dump $$$ into Balsams.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 5, 2015)

I was referring earlier to what I think was a 1982 plan for slide brook.  This plan was much larger than anything conceived by Les Otten.  And it predates all the environmental blockages as it won early approval.  However, the outcry from the community may have spurned tougher environmental hurdles for the industry. Can't seem to find anything else about it.  I'm pretty sure it was in Ski or Skiing magazine around that time.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is fine as it is.  I was just commenting on the protests.  I can't imagine what a "summit-to-summit" lift would look like.  And if Win and Company are having issues keeping the SBX running due to costs, can you imagine the cost of a gondola?



Thats what I thought you would say.  guess the tree huggers arent wrong all the time.

They actually ran the SBX more last season.  It ran everyday although they pushed the start time back to 10am.  With so many people skiing slidebrook and taking the shuttle on german flats to mt ellen, there really isnt much traffic on the SBX.  It is invariably ski on and the only time it runs near capacity is at 3pm when people want to get back to the mtn they started from before the lift shuts down.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> So, in retrospect, 30 years later, do you think leaving slidebrook undeveloped was a good or bad thing?
> IMHO, it is better that it was left untouched.  But thats just me, who takes his kids backcountry skiing/biking when they've never been to disneyland.



I vote good that Slidebrook was left virtually untouched.

Although I'm still in favor of developing something else at ME at some point in the future :razz: (I think upper Inverness would be my vote there).


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Thats what I thought you would say.  guess the tree huggers arent wrong all the time.



It's not an issue of being right or wrong, but just the tactics used and the hyperbole instead of a civil discussion.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And if Win and Company are having issues keeping the SBX running due to costs, can you imagine the cost of a gondola?



What makes you say they are having issues keeping SBX running? It ran both weekends and midweek the past 3 seasons as long as wind, temps, and snow cover were adequate.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2015)

If operating costs are an issue with SBX I think they shouldn't run it non holiday weekdays. It's easy enough to use the regular shuttle service that runs between the two areas. Why have the expense of running the chair & the expense of running the shuttle when one will satisfy the demand for the service. I was quite surprised to see SBX running one weekday I skied there last April (maybe late March) when both mountains were empty. In fact I had a problem that day getting back to Lincoln because the SBX was put on wind hold in the afternoon & didn't run again that day. Shuttle service had already been discontinued for the season. Guest Services was scrambling at Mt. Ellen to find a way to get people back to Lincoln. I got lucky & found a guy in the parking lot with a pick up truck that was heading back to Lincoln & was willing to give me a ride. I don't know the outcome for the other 20 or so people I saw at Ellen that were stuck.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> What makes you say they are having issues keeping SBX running? It ran both weekends and midweek the past 3 seasons as long as wind, temps, and snow cover were adequate.



When I was a passholder, from 2007-2011, they made a point of saying that "due to cost" it would only run weekends and holidays.  Sounds like they have reversed that.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> When I was a passholder, from 2007-2011, they made a point of saying that "due to cost" it would only run weekends and holidays.  Sounds like they have reversed that.



Yea, the 2011-2012 season was the first year I was a passholder and then they were only doing the weekends/holidays thing with Slide Brook. The 2012-2013 season was when they switched to running it whenever conditions permit. Maybe it isn't entirely needed, but I personally like that they run it all the time now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Yea, the 2011-2012 season was the first year I was a passholder and then they were only doing the weekends/holidays thing with Slide Brook. The 2012-2013 season was when they switched to running it whenever conditions permit. Maybe it isn't entirely needed, but I personally like that they run it all the time now.



I agree with you.  I think it made things better.  In addition, I bought a pass to ride the lifts and not a bus.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> When I was a passholder, from 2007-2011, they made a point of saying that "due to cost" it would only run weekends and holidays.  Sounds like they have reversed that.



I've don't recall ever hearing SBX wouldn't run due to cost.  A few seasons back it didn't run because some repair parts were needed, and then otherwise only when there was not enough snow to facilitate unforseen lift evacs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> I've don't recall ever hearing SBX wouldn't run due to cost.  A few seasons back it didn't run because some repair parts were needed, and then otherwise only when there was not enough snow to facilitate unforseen lift evacs.



We asked it here and/or in SkiMRV.  Win said it was simply too expensive for it to run midweek and off-peak periods.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> We asked it here and/or in SkiMRV.  Win said it was simply too expensive for it to run midweek and off-peak periods.



That's correct.  

I rarely use.  Out of the 40-50 days i'm there a season, maybe I'll ride it 5 times.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I vote good that Slidebrook was left virtually untouched.
> 
> Although I'm still in favor of developing something else at ME at some point in the future :razz: (I think upper Inverness would be my vote there).



them's fighting words!


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2015)

Def runs when they can now vs weekends/holidays. I prefer it over the shuttle.

Ran every day when they could from 95-99 when I lived there as well.


----------



## EPB (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> them's fighting words!



It will never happen... Would drop snowboarders off too close to MRG. Once MRG fires up the tree huggers, any plan would get blocked.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> them's fighting words!



Hah! Well we certainly won't be fighting with that snowgun even if they did expand at ME in the future somehow. I distinctly remember win saying the grandfathered permit they have for snowmaking at ME does not allow for any expansion of that system. 

And the chances of it ever happening are pretty damn slim anyway, so no need to worry anytime soon!


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> them's fighting words!



Needs to be settled with a ski-off.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Def runs when they can now vs weekends/holidays. I prefer it over the shuttle.



I prefer it over the shuttle too. You lose too much time on the shuttle I think between taking your skis off, walking down to the bus, waiting for the bus if your timing isn't just right, etc.

If I want to ski ME earlier in the day or when Slide Brook isn't running, I can always just drive there (like I've done on ME's opening day the past 2 years).


----------



## machski (Aug 5, 2015)

Yup, I stopped skiing there midweek when they shut SBX midweek.  There are runs on both sides I enjoy and often only go for a day or 2 a season.  Without SBX, it takes too long to make the slog back and forth by bus.  Without both connected by a lift, I find it less desirable to make the drive there.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Hah! Well we certainly won't be fighting with that snowgun even if they did expand at ME in the future somehow. I distinctly remember win saying the grandfathered permit they have for snowmaking at ME does not allow for any expansion of that system.
> 
> And the chances of it ever happening are pretty damn slim anyway, so no need to worry anytime soon!



Agreed.  But if you haven't had the opportunity to explore up there, I'm game.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I prefer it over the shuttle too. You lose too much time on the shuttle I think between taking your skis off, walking down to the bus, waiting for the bus if your timing isn't just right, etc.
> 
> If I want to ski ME earlier in the day or when Slide Brook isn't running, I can always just drive there (like I've done on ME's opening day the past 2 years).



Yeah, the shuttle is really for getting back to either lp or me after a slidebrook run.  For that, it's excellent.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2015)

Never ridden the shuttle.  I have ridden Slidebrook every time I've been to Sugarbush and it has been spinning.

Even at Stowe where the shuttle ride was much shorter I hardly ever used it to get to Spruce.  I use the over easy gondola every time I'm there now.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Agreed.  But if you haven't had the opportunity to explore up there, I'm game.



Might have to take you up on that next season...


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2015)

cdskier said:


> If I want to ski ME earlier in the day or when Slide Brook isn't running, I can always just drive there


Taking off one boot & driving over is always an option.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Taking off one boot & driving over is always an option.



Take off the boot?


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Taking off one boot & driving over is always an option.



As long as I decide before I leave in the morning. Otherwise I have to go back to my condo to pick up my car first.


----------



## vonski (Aug 5, 2015)

No need to take off one boot if you can break with the left foot.  I can drive with both feet.  My left foot got bored after I got rid of my manual transmission years ago.  So sometimes I use both sometimes just the right foot.  But I have made that ride between North and South many times with two boots on!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Take off the boot?
> 
> View attachment 17247



:lol:  Where was that?


----------



## vonski (Aug 5, 2015)

Its not a Porsche, so its not from the car expo at Mellon a couple years ago!


----------



## ss20 (Aug 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:  Where was that?



Windham.  It was posted on here either this ski season or last.


----------



## dlague (Aug 6, 2015)

vonski said:


> No need to take off one boot if you can break with the left foot.  I can drive with both feet.  My left foot got bored after I got rid of my manual transmission years ago.  So sometimes I use both sometimes just the right foot.  But I have made that ride between North and South many times with two boots on!!



Agree!  I do that several times per season.  Boots on!


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 6, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Might have to take you up on that next season...



my pleasure, but fair warning, I once many years ago went down the wrong, west facing, side of that ridge.  2 hour hike back up through waist deep snow, although the turns were sweet on the way down.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 6, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> my pleasure, but fair warning, I once many years ago went down the wrong, west facing, side of that ridge.  2 hour hike back up through waist deep snow, although the turns were sweet on the way down.



Hah. We'll have to hope you remember which way not to go this time! :smile:


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Taking off one boot & driving over is always an option.





vonski said:


> No need to take off one boot if you can break with the left foot.  I can drive with both feet.  My left foot got bored after I got rid of my manual transmission years ago.  So sometimes I use both sometimes just the right foot.  But I have made that ride between North and South many times with two boots on!!





dlague said:


> Agree!  I do that several times per season.  Boots on!


I find it safer to drive taking the boot off & slipping on my regular footwear, not a big deal. I do this sometimes both driving between Lincoln/Ellen & Killington/Pico.


----------



## ironhippy (Aug 6, 2015)

I quite often drive to/from the hill in sandals, keeps my feet cool and dry

My feed would be soaked with sweat if I drove in my boots for any period of time


----------



## benski (Aug 6, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> my pleasure, but fair warning, I once many years ago went down the wrong, west facing, side of that ridge.  2 hour hike back up through waist deep snow, although the turns were sweet on the way down.



I was with you. It could have been a five minute walk if you were not so stubborn when I told you we were heading off the backside based on seeing lake Champlain in front of us. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## vonski (Aug 6, 2015)

I went off the backside back in 2008 I believe.  It was after that unexpected Marvelous Champagne Powder of 20 inches appeared overnight on the night of Friday into Saturday morning of vacation week.  I pushed out to the hiking trail and made it to the gas station on 17 and hitched a ride back. Best run of my life!   But alarming when we popped out of the canopy and my kid said hey dad where are the lifts and his friend said he look its the lake.   My radio actually reached my kids friends parents on the other side at Ellen. They went to the lodge.  The Guest service people said.  Ya that happens a lot.  lets call the gas station and see if they have made it there yet.   Went off backside like 10 am and was back at Ellen by noon.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 6, 2015)

benski said:


> I was with you. It could have been a five minute walk if you were not so stubborn when I told you we were heading off the backside based on seeing lake Champlain in front of us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



All true.  But it wasn't me who took off for another 500' vertical.  It was you know who.  But it was my bad.


----------



## benski (Aug 6, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> All true.  But it wasn't me who took off for another 500' vertical.  It was you know who.  But it was my bad.



You know who was not even with us. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## marcski (Aug 6, 2015)

benski said:


> You know who was not even with us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I have, unfortunately, followed Howie on a bike....haven't had the pleasure on skis yet.   .


----------



## benski (Aug 6, 2015)

I he knows his way around on skies better than a bike. 


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## HowieT2 (Aug 7, 2015)

benski said:


> You know who was not even with us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



The other you know who.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 10, 2015)

SB webcam page now has views of new Valley House chair construction, and also of Gadd Brook condos.

http://www.sugarbush.com/about-vermont-resort/webcam

Thanks Win!


----------



## cdskier (Aug 11, 2015)

I posted these over on the MRV forum, but may as well share here too for everyone else that doesn't visit there...

These were taken this weekend of the progress on Valley House:


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 12, 2015)

What do you know, only tree pruning on the Mall like they said and all the hand waving was for naught lol.


----------



## slatham (Aug 12, 2015)

We need someone to hike up and take a pic of the unloading zone. Very interested in how this works given its below VH Traverse yet gives access to Steins, Snowball and Reverse Traverse.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 12, 2015)

slatham said:


> We need someone to hike up and take a pic of the unloading zone. Very interested in how this works given its below VH Traverse yet gives access to Steins, Snowball and Reverse Traverse.



Its going to be just below what used to be the nip point where the traverse ran into snowball under the lift line.  The traverse is now wider and regraded.


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 13, 2015)

I'll be up there this weekend and hopefully hiking around. I'll try to get some pictures of the progress


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2015)

slatham said:


> We need someone to hike up and take a pic of the unloading zone. Very interested in how this works given its below VH Traverse yet gives access to Steins, Snowball and Reverse Traverse.



My guess coming off the lift you will be dumped on VH Traverse?


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 14, 2015)

dlague said:


> My guess coming off the lift you will be dumped on VH Traverse?



I think that's right with the understanding that the traverse is going to be entirely different from how it used to be.


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> I think that's right with the understanding that the traverse is going to be entirely different from how it used to be.



Probably grading it to get access to Stein's


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 14, 2015)

dlague said:


> Probably grading it to get access to Stein's


Probably not since the lift will unload below the old traverse. The traverse will be higher not lower. Unless of course you want the main flow of traffic colliding with skiers getting off the lift.


----------



## vonski (Aug 15, 2015)

If you go to google earth the latest image is from mid May.  The old lift is gone and the blasting is done.  The new lift terminates below the old lift termination.  The people coming off the traverse will go behind the lift to snowball and if you want the Mall or Steins you turn left.  They have graded out the area to make this all run smooth.


----------



## slatham (Aug 15, 2015)

There are two "traverses"'. VH traverse, which will be above the unload area with direct access to Snowball without crossing lift unload area. My question/curiosity is how the unload area connects to Reverse Traverse (and Stiens) to uploading skiers right, and to Snowball from unloading skiers left.


----------



## Plowboy (Aug 15, 2015)

Get off lift....Go left to Snowball....Go right to Steins!


----------



## vonski (Aug 15, 2015)

Thanks Plowboy.  for posting the image!    Also there will be no need to go under the lift anymore to get to snowball!  as you can see in the picture.  Now you go behind it.  Much better flow!


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2015)

Plowboy said:


> Get off lift....Go left to Snowball....Go right to Steins!



So as I am skiing down VH Traverse, at sub-Tuna Speed, and decide I want to go down Stein's or Reverse Traverse, do I take a hard left before encountering the top of the lift, or make a "U-Turn" and ski just past the top of the lift, dodge the skiers and riders offloading, and continue on?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 15, 2015)

Looks like the former to me.  And the folks that want to head on to Spring Fling stay up above the lift as the VH traverse would be separated from the lift unload zone.  Perfect design fixing a real problem area.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Looks like the former to me.  And the folks that want to head on to Spring Fling stay up above the lift as the VH traverse would be separated from the lift unload zone.  Perfect design fixing a real problem area.



No doubt it was a serious problem.  I guess it will be interesting having two-way traffic on that area right off the top of the lift.


----------



## Plowboy (Aug 15, 2015)

The top terminal will be closer to the top of the Mall. So, I don't think plan B will work.


----------



## slatham (Aug 15, 2015)

My understanding, which may be way off base, is the unload area would be further down the Mall from where the "star" is. Closer to the area between the two "arrows" pointing down the Mall. I think I am getting this from having read that the unload area would be where the top most VH lift tower was that was on the Mall (vs the one's up on on the traverse). Hence my desire to see a pic of where things are being set up etc.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 16, 2015)

slatham said:


> My understanding, which may be way off base, is the unload area would be further down the Mall from where the "star" is. Closer to the area between the two "arrows" pointing down the Mall. I think I am getting this from having read that the unload area would be where the top most VH lift tower was that was on the Mall (vs the one's up on on the traverse). Hence my desire to see a pic of where things are being set up etc.



That was pretty much my understanding...


----------



## jimmck (Aug 16, 2015)

cdskier said:


> That was pretty much my understanding...


From the Act 250 filing.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 16, 2015)

cdskier said:


> That was pretty much my understanding...



mine as well.


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 16, 2015)

Hiked up there on Friday and took a few pictures


Coming down vh traverse towards that last turn before where the old unload area used to be. They blasted out a bunch of that corner and made it much wider


Around that corner


Looking down from where vh traverse comes out


What's left of the old lift shack


----------



## dlague (Aug 16, 2015)

Reverse Traverse to Stein's,  VH Traverse will still have a drop into Stein's.   Look at their trail map the have it highlighted.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 17, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Hiked up there on Friday and took a few pictures
> 
> View attachment 17312
> Coming down vh traverse towards that last turn before where the old unload area used to be. They blasted out a bunch of that corner and made it much wider
> ...



well done


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 17, 2015)

Thanks, I honestly couldn't recognize where things used to be


----------



## benski (Aug 17, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Hiked up there on Friday and took a few pictures
> 
> View attachment 17312
> Coming down vh traverse towards that last turn before where the old unload area used to be. They blasted out a bunch of that corner and made it much wider
> ...



I believe that is the abandoned patrol shack. I am surprised it is still there. I don't think the patrol shack was at all usable now. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 17, 2015)

They definitely picked it up and dropped it there, it's basically collapsing


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 18, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Thanks, I honestly couldn't recognize where things used to be



Pics from this past March.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 26, 2015)

I wonder how long until they are ready to start flying in Towers?  Anyone local see the towers and lift terminal pieces laying around?


----------



## slatham (Aug 26, 2015)

I was under the impression that they had to fly in cement for the lift tower bases on the steeper sections, and then fly the towers. Have not heard of the cement going in but unfortunately I haven't been hanging out watching the mountain lately.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 26, 2015)

good point about flying in the concrete.    Forgot about that.  I would imagine that they have to be close to doing that at this point.


----------



## teleo (Aug 26, 2015)

Their fb page said "towers are scheduled for their heli-drops September 8th!"


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 26, 2015)

Nice.  they must've poured the foundations already as they would need time to cure before bolting the towers in, right?


----------



## jimmck (Aug 30, 2015)

Bottom terminal taking shape


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 31, 2015)

Nice photo-- would be nice if the Bush would move their webcam so you could see more.


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## HowieT2 (Aug 31, 2015)

jimmck said:


> Bottom terminal taking shape
> 
> View attachment 17396



interesting angle.  Where did you take the picture from?


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 31, 2015)

How would one get on the lift from Spring Fling, the Mall, etc. Ski around the Valley House? I would think what we see under the lift is not going to be skiable right there.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 31, 2015)

Here's a few pics from 8/30.  I hiked up Castlerock, took the Long Trail to Lincoln Peak and would my way down the mountain.

VH Traverse and grading back to Steins:






Top tower:






Carpet for the lift at the bottom ?


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## jimmck (Aug 31, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> interesting angle.  Where did you take the picture from?


Balcony at Clay Brook.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 31, 2015)

WWF-VT thanks for the pics. 

Did you happen to peer into the new slide that opened up n Paradise earlier this summer?


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 31, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> WWF-VT thanks for the pics.
> 
> Did you happen to peer into the new slide that opened up n Paradise earlier this summer?



I did not hike down as I was in shorts and didn't feel like bushwacking. Everything is well grown in along the LT and Paradise Woods. You can't tell where it is from the LT.   I did get a good look via my binoculars from Allyn's Lodge.  It looks to be about 10-15 yards wide and 50+ yards long and stripped down to dirt.  There's probably a big debris pile at the bottom - I could not get a view as hiked down Jester. t's likely no secret that it's about 20+ yards to skiers left of a familar woods area up there.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 1, 2015)

For any older gentlemen/women out there Sugarbush lowered their senior discount age from 70 to 65. I still have several years to go.


----------



## gostan (Sep 2, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> For any older gentlemen/women out there Sugarbush lowered their senior discount age from 70 to 65. I still have several years to go.


After complaining about the $$ Treatment of Senior Skiers when the age was raised to 70, this reversal of philosophy by reducing the age back to 65 was welcomed with open arms last May by this 66 year old skier.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 2, 2015)

Win Smith turned 65 this year, and I believe that may have prompted the age lowering.  He wants more of his peeps on the hill with him.


----------



## gostan (Sep 2, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Win Smith turned 65 this year, and I believe that may have prompted the age lowering.  He wants more of his peeps on the hill with him.


I think that there was a loss of Senior skiers to other lower priced senior pass mountains inVT and that with  the success of the Boomer Mid Week pass and the $$ being spent on the VH chair, Win wants to put as many people as possible on the mountain, young, old , families, college age, , middle age, or whatever, it does not matter.


----------



## billski (Sep 2, 2015)

gostan said:


> I think that there was a loss of Senior skiers to other lower priced senior pass mountains inVT and that with  the success of the Boomer Mid Week pass and the $$ being spent on the VH chair, Win wants to put as many people as possible on the mountain, young, old , families, college age, , middle age, or whatever, it does not matter.


   Agree with the comment about competitive pressure.  Also, since the boomer bulge is passing through that age range, it matters.  Even if they didn't ski, they still sit at the vacant chairs and drink overpriced cups of coffee, or brewski with their friends swapping lies.  I'm also seeing more boomers opening their wallets to treat their entire family of kids and grandkids to a day or a weekend holiday.

The hardest part is getting the customer in the door.  Besides, they're not about to wear out the bullwheel from overuse!


----------



## cdskier (Sep 2, 2015)

gostan said:


> I think that there was a loss of Senior skiers to other lower priced senior pass mountains inVT and that with  the success of the Boomer Mid Week pass and the $$ being spent on the VH chair, Win wants to put as many people as possible on the mountain, young, old , families, college age, , middle age, or whatever, it does not matter.



My Dad turns 65 this winter so will be able to take advantage of this next year. He's thrilled and ran into Win one day on the mountain at the end of last season after this was announced and personally thanked him. Win explained that they ran the numbers and saw that they had a very low number of season pass holders currently in the 65-69 range, but a significant number of skiers above that range. His thought was that if they lose the people in the 65-69 group due to high pass prices that they won't come back when they hit 70. So they figured if they lowered the age to 65 it might increase the number of pass-holders in that range and help keep them there for the long run.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 2, 2015)

That boomer(midweek) pass is some deal. Almost makes me wish I were 65, almost.


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 2, 2015)

Hey steamboat1 have you ever been to steamboat.


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## rocks860 (Sep 2, 2015)

Nothing like some wax spamming


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 5, 2015)

Pics from today


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 5, 2015)

Great pics!


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 5, 2015)

Those pictures are great. Really shows how much more room will be at the top of that lift.

The mall looks relatively unchanged as well.


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## Dickc (Sep 6, 2015)

Looks like its about time to fly in the towers!


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 6, 2015)

a little snow will do wonders.


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## dlague (Sep 6, 2015)

Lots of snow will be perfect!


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 6, 2015)

Snow a great four letter word...


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## benski (Sep 6, 2015)

Dickc said:


> Looks like its about time to fly in the towers!



Cement is being flown in for the towers Tuesday. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 14, 2015)

From the website-- colors starting to change up top.


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 14, 2015)

Will look better with snow


----------



## gostan (Sep 14, 2015)

SnowDogWax said:


> Will look better with snow


 i agree.  but it will look even better with you & i on the snow.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 16, 2015)

Bush webcam showing helicopter over the Mall this morning.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2015)

FB says they're flying concrete today.


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2015)

I'll be up there this weekend and will try to grab some pics of the progress too...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2015)

Good video footage of the work at Sugarbush:

http://www.wcax.com/story/30048163/vt-ski-areas-upgrade-with-pricey-projects


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## vonski (Sep 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Good video footage of the work at Sugarbush:
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/30048163/vt-ski-areas-upgrade-with-pricey-projects



But it is not high speed!!  only 8 minutes but fixed grip!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2015)

vonski said:


> But it is not high speed!!  only 8 minutes but fixed grip!



Good catch! I didn't notice that when I watched the video. That is a bit of a misnomer.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## machski (Sep 17, 2015)

vonski said:


> But it is not high speed!!  only 8 minutes but fixed grip!



Not the first to tag this type of lift as high speed.  Sugarloaf does the same for skyline.


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## benski (Sep 17, 2015)

Maybe sugarbush is calling it high speed since it is faster than a fixed grip. They call detachable quads expresses so why not make not of it superior speed to fixed grips.


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## vonski (Sep 18, 2015)

benski said:


> Maybe sugarbush is calling it high speed since it is faster than a fixed grip. They call detachable quads expresses so why not make not of it superior speed to fixed grips.



It was the newscasters calling it high speed not Win!


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## BarkingDog (Sep 18, 2015)

Is the new lift one of those conveyor belt fixed-grip chairs?


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## slatham (Sep 18, 2015)

Yes, conveyor belt to a fixed grip quad. Faster than the old double, but not a high speed detach.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 18, 2015)

How many fpm on those like 600?


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## Jully (Sep 18, 2015)

machski said:


> Not the first to tag this type of lift as high speed.  Sugarloaf does the same for skyline.



High Speed Fixed Grip Quad is what they call it. So it is differentiated from detachable lifts. Still called high speed though which can be misleading.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 18, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> How many fpm on those like 600?



I've heard it's more like 500-550 for these carpet-loading lifts.  The fastest you can run a regular fixed-grip quad is 400fpm I believe.  That's with regulations, not max hp.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 19, 2015)

2.8m/s converts to about 551ft/min

http://leitner-poma.com/product/fixed-grip-chairlifts/


----------



## Dickc (Sep 19, 2015)

Speeds on fixed grips have a maximum with and without a carpet.  Found an article on Skilifts.org that has a pretty good discussion of this.  http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=9873  There are two posts that give some speeds.  One in Feet/Min, the other in metric speeds.  The Feet per speeds are listed as follows:
Note ansi governs 'relative loading speed' which can be mitigated with a carpet on either side loading or unloading.

600 FPM max for Single chairs
550 FPM max for doubles
500 FPM max for triples
450 FPM max for quads.

If the Bush is getting 550 out of a quad. it must have a faster carpet than the above examples to mitigate _relative_ chair speed with respect to loading.  Would be interested to know of that is the case.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 19, 2015)

I guestimate the 550 that was given sounds right, it seems quite a bit quicker than 450.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2015)

Some pics of the lift progress that I took this weekend. The redesign of the top looks like it will work very well.


----------



## benski (Oct 13, 2015)

The towers are going in rite now. You can watch on the webcam


----------



## cdskier (Oct 13, 2015)

benski said:


> The towers are going in rite now. You can watch on the webcam



Was pretty cool watching the webcam earlier for a few minutes seeing how fast they go in. Under 5 minutes to drop a tower into place and secure it from what I saw when watching.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2015)

Images from their FB page:


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 13, 2015)

Pretty much what the bottom terminal will look like upon completion. Except she'll be a lefty.


----------



## rocks860 (Oct 14, 2015)

That's okemo right? That magic carpet thing threw me for a loop last year first time I got on it


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 14, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> That's okemo right? That magic carpet thing threw me for a loop last year first time I got on it



That's the Meadows Quad at Stowe


----------



## rocks860 (Oct 14, 2015)

Huh it looks just like the 2 lifts they have by the clock tower at okemo


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2015)

Yeah, definitely Stowe, not Okemo.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2015)

Yes it's the Meadows quad at Stowe installed last season. Same lift & same manufacturer as The Valley House chair going in at Sugarbush this season carpet loaded & all. That's why I said they'd look the same. Reason I said the Sugarbush lift will be a lefty is because the ladder to the motor is on the opposite side as the lift at Stowe which loads on the right side. Also the lift attendant shack & carpet seem to be on that side also. Rode that lift & a couple of other carpet loading lifts & I don't like the loading. I'm not a fan of these lifts & didn't notice much difference in speed as opposed to a regular fixed grip lift.

By the way Win said in the MRV forum the new lift will only run Fri, Sat. Sun. & holidays this season. I'd guess it'll run when when Super Bravo is on wind hold too.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes it's the Meadows quad at Stowe installed last season. Same lift & same manufacturer as The Valley House chair going in at Sugarbush this season carpet loaded & all. That's why I said they'd look the same. Reason I said the Sugarbush lift will be a lefty is because the ladder to the motor is on the opposite side as the lift at Stowe which loads on the right side. Rode that lift & a couple of other carpet loading lifts & I don't like the loading. I'm not a fan of these lifts & didn't notice much difference in speed as opposed to a regular fixed grip lift.
> 
> By the way Win said in the MRV forum the new lift will only run Fri, Sat. Sun. & holidays this season. I'd guess it'll run when when Super Bravo is on wind hold too.



My understanding is the carpet loading allows it to run 100'/minute faster than manual loading fixed grip for safety reasons.  I admit it will take some getting used to, but it's really meant to help the less experienced.  Doesn't do anything for the likes of us.

its going to run on the same schedule as the old lift.  There is little reason to run it midweek non holiday when all the terrain is accessible from the super bravo which is invariably ski on at those times.

another piece of good news from win is that the skinny pancake is returning.  Love that place.


----------



## rocks860 (Oct 14, 2015)

I still haven't been to the skinny pancake, I'll have to check it out this year


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 14, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> My understanding is the carpet loading allows it to run 100'/minute faster than manual loading fixed grip for safety reasons.  I admit it will take some getting used to, but it's really meant to help the less experienced.  Doesn't do anything for the likes of us.


I assume the likes of us means experienced skiers. I don't like the loading & feel uncomfortable loading that way. I can't see how it helps inexperienced skiers when I as an experienced skier don't feel comfortable.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 15, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> its going to run on the same schedule as the old lift.  There is little reason to run it midweek non holiday when all the terrain is accessible from the super bravo which is invariably ski on at those times.
> 
> another piece of good news from win is that the skinny pancake is returning.  Love that place.



Completely agree on the lift schedule piece. No need for VH to run mid-week unless Bravo is down for some reason.

As for Skinny Pancake, I thought it was pretty good in terms of the food itself, but I thought the portions were a bit small and they were a bit pricey (although for being right on the mountain the latter is probably expected). I'd rather go over to Mutha Stuffers or Pizza Soul for lunch personally.


----------



## Jully (Oct 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I assume the likes of us means experienced skiers. I don't like the loading & feel uncomfortable loading that way. I can't see how it helps inexperienced skiers when I as an experienced skier don't feel comfortable.



In talking with the SL staff, I was never given the impression that it was designed to be easier to load. I always was told it was just faster than a regular FGQ, but a heck of a lot cheaper than a HSQ and didn't have wind problems like a detach.

Definitely does not feel as comfortable loading as a regular chair, but I'll take it for the speed increase.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 15, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Completely agree on the lift schedule piece. No need for VH to run mid-week unless Bravo is down for some reason.
> 
> As for Skinny Pancake, I thought it was pretty good in terms of the food itself, but I thought the portions were a bit small and they were a bit pricey (although for being right on the mountain the latter is probably expected). I'd rather go over to Mutha Stuffers or Pizza Soul for lunch personally.



Im not in the habit of going to the village for lunch, but those guys deserve the effort.
skinny pancake is not cheap for sure, but I like it for breakfast and the wife and daughter like it for lunch.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 15, 2015)

Jully said:


> In talking with the SL staff, I was never given the impression that it was designed to be easier to load. I always was told it was just faster than a regular FGQ, but a heck of a lot cheaper than a HSQ and didn't have wind problems like a detach.
> 
> Definitely does not feel as comfortable loading as a regular chair, but I'll take it for the speed increase.



I think the reason it can be run faster is that it's easier for inexperienced skiers so that they don't have to slow the chair down for them to load safely.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I assume the likes of us means experienced skiers. I don't like the loading & feel uncomfortable loading that way. I can't see how it helps inexperienced skiers when I as an experienced skier don't feel comfortable.



Yes, we are experienced.  And that experience necessarily means a level of comfort with loading on to a chairlift.  I assume once I get used to being shuffled on a carpet in to the loading zone, it will feel more comfortable.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2015)

Not sure why people have issues with the carpet load.  It's a little weird the first couple of times because it's different, then it's fine.  It sure beats riding a standard fixed grip lift.  I'm sure we will be seeing more and more of them.   I bet when they get around to replacing Heaven's Gate, that's what you'll see there too.


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Not sure why people have issues with the carpet load.  It's a little weird the first couple of times because it's different, then it's fine.  It sure beats riding a standard fixed grip lift.  I'm sure we will be seeing more and more of them.   I bet when they get around to replacing Heaven's Gate, that's what you'll see there too.



A little weird the first time but no big deal. Summit last year was my first experience.
 I just wonder how difficult they are to maintain? Freeze thaw overnight some snow gets on the carpet and freezes. Lots of moving parts on the carpet.


----------



## ironhippy (Oct 15, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> A little weird the first time but no big deal. Summit last year was my first experience.
> I just wonder how difficult they are to maintain? Freeze thaw overnight some snow gets on the carpet and freezes. Lots of moving parts on the carpet.



Where I've seen them, the carpet is covered up at night


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## marcski (Oct 15, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> A little weird the first time but no big deal. Summit last year was my first experience.
> I just wonder how difficult they are to maintain? Freeze thaw overnight some snow gets on the carpet and freezes. Lots of moving parts on the carpet.


Wouldn't it be similar to a magic carpet lift in this regard?  I know some magic carpets are covered but not all.


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## Newpylong (Oct 15, 2015)

If I was still in the Valley I would be super pumped about this upgrade. Everything from the lower base terminal to the reworked unload it's just a win win. Not only should it alleviate pressure on SB on weekends but if that lift goes down the rest of the mountain is still accessible. I wonder if they will install snowmaking in the future on Reverse Traverse or Heaven's Gate Traverse for insurance on this aspect?

I think the Bush has one of the best lift systems (both placement and type) around. I would think a new FGQ for Heaven's Gate would be the nest step when the time comes.


----------



## benski (Oct 15, 2015)

I doubt Heavens Gate is going is being replaced or upgraded to a carpet loading quad any time soon. Last year they replaced most of the inner working of the lift so I assume the plan is to keep it for another 20 years.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 19, 2015)

Best picture I've seen so far of the base layout for the new chair. Posted by Schweig 1 on another site.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 19, 2015)

Be interesting to see how they regrade the loading area for the Q lines.  Not exactly flat there.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Best picture I've seen so far of the base layout for the new chair. Posted by Schweig 1 on another site.



Interesting.  That is higher up the slope than I thought it would be.  Also, what is that new building going up beside the lift?  A new Mountain Ops building?  Something for snowmaking?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2015)

benski said:


> I doubt Heavens Gate is going is being replaced or upgraded to a carpet loading quad any time soon. Last year they replaced most of the inner working of the lift so I assume the plan is to keep it for another 20 years.



As long as it runs reliably I don't think anyone really cares.  It offers enough capacity most of the time from what I saw.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  That is higher up the slope than I thought it would be.  Also, what is that new building going up beside the lift?  A new Mountain Ops building?  Something for snowmaking?



I think there is further grading to be done.  Here is information from Win on the building to the right of the lift:

The big building to the right of the new lift looking up hill is for Mountain Water and Lift Maintenance. The bottom floor contains two sand filters where water from Clay Brook flows to be filtered and fed into the overall water system in the winter. Only our wells are needed in the summer. These filters were in the old building basement which was torn down. The second and third floors of the new building with be for lift maintenance. They will have their lockers there, storage for parts and a work area for repairs. They were in the Vehicle Maintenance building previously but this is better space for them and Snowmakers will now use their space which is better for them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> I think there is further grading to be done.  Here is information from Win on the building to the right of the lift:
> 
> The big building to the right of the new lift looking up hill is for Mountain Water and Lift Maintenance. The bottom floor contains two sand filters where water from Clay Brook flows to be filtered and fed into the overall water system in the winter. Only our wells are needed in the summer. These filters were in the old building basement which was torn down. The second and third floors of the new building with be for lift maintenance. They will have their lockers there, storage for parts and a work area for repairs. They were in the Vehicle Maintenance building previously but this is better space for them and Snowmakers will now use their space which is better for them.



Interesting.


----------



## dlague (Oct 19, 2015)

I definitely will take the Super Bravo lift first.  Hate hiking to a lift.  Yes I am lazy.  That is steeper than it looks when there is snow.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Oct 19, 2015)

There's a couple of good pictures of the top terminal & retaining wall in the MRV forum.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 19, 2015)

dlague said:


> I definitely will take the Super Bravo lift first.  Hate hiking to a lift.  Yes I am lazy.  That is steeper than it looks when there is snow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


It's a bit of a hike to even get to the base lodge from the parking lot at Lincoln (better since they removed the stairs & put in a walkway). You'd definitely not ski Mt. Ellen if you had to park in one of the lower lots. Forget about getting to the Forerunner quad at Stowe from the Mansfield base lodge.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 19, 2015)

dlague said:


> I definitely will take the Super Bravo lift first.  Hate hiking to a lift.  Yes I am lazy.  That is steeper than it looks when there is snow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That is not going to be a hike of any significance.  I dont know that they are doing any grading down there.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 19, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> That is not going to be a hike of any significance.  I dont know that they are doing any grading down there.



Agreed...and compared to what it was before with the old VH lift, I'll take this any day!


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## steamboat1 (Oct 19, 2015)

Did anyone check out the pictures of the top? Pretty large retaining wall up there at the Mall entrance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Did anyone check out the pictures of the top? Pretty large retaining wall up there at the Mall entrance.



I was surprised by that


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## HowieT2 (Oct 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I was surprised by that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



had to be.  You couldn't tell from the pictures i posted previously but there was a big drop off.


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## dlague (Oct 20, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Agreed...and compared to what it was before with the old VH lift, I'll take this any day!



Good point but I will take a warm up run from Super Bravo first and ski to it.


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## dlague (Oct 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Did anyone check out the pictures of the top? Pretty large retaining wall up there at the Mall entrance.



Are they on their website?


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## steamboat1 (Oct 20, 2015)

dlague said:


> Are they on their website?


They're on the SkiMRV forum located at the bottom. You have to register there to see them. I'd post them here but can't seem to be able to C&P them.

Win has also added insight in that forum.


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## cdskier (Oct 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> They're on the SkiMRV forum located at the bottom. You have to register there to see them. I'd post them here but can't seem to be able to C&P them.
> 
> Win has also added insight in that forum.



Since one of them was my pic anyway, I suppose I can repost it here to make things easier


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> They're on the SkiMRV forum located at the bottom. You have to register there to see them. I'd post them here but can't seem to be able to C&P them.
> 
> Win has also added insight in that forum.



I thought that site was deserted...
Haven't been on in years now I hear Win is posting in it!


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 20, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Since one of them was my pic anyway, I suppose I can repost it here to make things easier


Can you post up the other two pictures from above the top terminal?


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## HowieT2 (Oct 20, 2015)

ALLSKIING said:


> I thought that site was deserted...
> Haven't been on in years now I hear Win is posting in it!



He's actually quite active on there during the season.  takes off from May until about this time of year.


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## benski (Oct 20, 2015)

ALLSKIING said:


> I thought that site was deserted...
> Haven't been on in years now I hear Win is posting in it!



It's not! It's been very active lately. Over the summer it does become deserted though. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 20, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Since one of them was my pic anyway, I suppose I can repost it here to make things easier  View attachment 17685



Wonder how many folks will find a way to launch that midweek when the lift is closed.


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## cdskier (Oct 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Can you post up the other two pictures from above the top terminal?



Those two weren't mine. Last time I took/posted pics from above the top terminal was about a month ago before the retaining wall was in.

And yes, Win is very active in that forum during ski season.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 20, 2015)

These were posted by skimore on the MRV forum.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 24, 2015)

For contrast


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## jaybird (Oct 24, 2015)

Bush better have water in their holding ponds this season.
All the enhancement means little if you can't fill the pipes.


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## slatham (Oct 24, 2015)

Has there been an issue with water supply from the pond in previous years?


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## SnowDogWax (Oct 24, 2015)

Snow looks good


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## benski (Oct 24, 2015)

slatham said:


> Has there been an issue with water supply from the pond in previous years?


During Irene the snowmaking pond was destroyed causing problems. Others than that I don't think they have had any trouble making snow. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Newpylong (Oct 24, 2015)

jaybird said:


> Bush better have water in their holding ponds this season.
> All the enhancement means little if you can't fill the pipes.



Ya don't think the 25 million gallon pond is enough?


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 24, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Ya don't think the 25 million gallon pond is enough?


They have plenty of water.  And the replaced all the pipe on that side of the mtn over the last two years to increase capacity.


----------



## Skimaine (Oct 24, 2015)

Love the carpet loader at SL.  In addition to being slightly faster, it really cuts down on stops and seems to fill the chairs.


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## gostan (Oct 25, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> They have plenty of water.  And the replaced all the pipe on that side of the mtn over the last two years to increase capacity.


My understanding is that the issue holding SB back on blowing more snow on more trail sectioms simultaneously was always not enough air, not water. i believe that all of the new Lo-E snowguns alomg with some work on a couple of compressors may be allowing the MT to alleviate this bottleneck.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2015)

For any Sugarbush fans, these are listed on eBay.  Interesting pieces of history.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Sugarb...829547?hash=item35f52ffceb:g:OhQAAOSwwbdWNrBr


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## rocks860 (Nov 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> For any Sugarbush fans, these are listed on eBay.  Interesting pieces of history.....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Sugarb...829547?hash=item35f52ffceb:g:OhQAAOSwwbdWNrBr



That's pretty awesome


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

Bump.  

So it looks like once again Sugarbush is struggling to open on their traditional opening weekend.  Granted the weather has been warm, but it is not stopping Sunday River or Killington from moving ahead.  I also saw that Stowe is moving ahead.  

The last two years I was a passholder this issue peeved me...and I know it peeved others in here.  Sugarbush was pretty bullish regarding opening early....until 2009 or so and then they just seemed to be caught flatfooted and not motivated.  It just seemed wrong that everyone else was opening and working to open and Sugarbush was "?"

Well, the issue came back for me when I saw the Sugarbush PR guy or gal on Facebook post a picture of the mountain saying, "look at how great things are?  Oh yeah, but we might not make it for the weekend", followed up by a post bragging about how he/she just got back from skiing at MRG.  WTF? 

I guess that Sugarbush has concluded that early season is just not their thing anymore....and early as in the weekend before Thanksgiving early.  Seemed we almost always could bet on that.  And when you are holding yourself out as better than Killington or Stowe, and both are blowing snow to open (or are open), it just doesn't look good.  

Just my $0.02.  Not that it impacts me now, but just seems like Sugarbush can't compete in that regard.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2015)

Stowe has said they aren't opening until next Wednesday.

In most years I'd agree with your sentiment, but this year is a little different.

With what the forecast looks like for Thursday, its of little surprise to me that it's looking like K, SR and BW are it for the weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Stowe has said they aren't opening until next Wednesday.
> 
> In most years I'd agree with your sentiment, but this year is a little different.
> 
> With what the forecast looks like for Thursday, its of little surprise to me that it's looking like K, SR and BW are it for the weekend.



Yeah, that's why I didn't respond on FB.  What was the peeve for me was the rep saying, "gosh darn it, we probably won't open" and then posting a pic bragging about their ski outing at MRG.  If I was sitting in Boston or NYC I'd be asking "WTF?"


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2015)

I get not competing with K or SR for the very early season opening but the Stowe one is a bit puzzling.  I just cannot figure out why SB cannot laydown snow as fast as other resorts.  My hunch is that it is the new high efficiency guns that use no air, I don't think they do too well in marginal temps.  You need the older air hogs like the K-gun that is still used.  From first hand observation I think the other resorts actually "make snow" they do guns runs, check quality and move the guns to get an even blanket.  SB turns them on and makes huge piles that have almost grass between them and making the goggle sticking slop.  I have been amazed by some of the whales they make with the gun buried.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, that's why I didn't respond on FB.  What was the peeve for me was the rep saying, "gosh darn it, we probably won't open" and then posting a pic bragging about their ski outing at MRG.  If I was sitting in Boston or NYC I'd be asking "WTF?"



I'm sitting at my desk in NYC, fwiw.  it was about 65f yesterday so not really skiing weather.  They got some natural snow so it was possible to skin and ski but not enough to open and that will be dissipated by the r%$^&n coming.  Its pretty clear that Sb isnt in the first to open race.  they try to open the weekend before thanksgiving and in my time have largely been successful.  but with stowe also unable to open this weekend, I doubt anyone will blame them for a lack of effort.  They have been making snow when temps permit.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2015)

From everything I've seen, they've been pushing as hard as possible given the weather not being very cooperative. There have been some good updates over in the MRV forums from both Win and people working on the snowmaking crews.

The logistics at each area are unique as well. Weather between SB, Stowe, and SR can be quite different. K has a lot of available fire-power and is still limited to a relatively small amount of vertical near the top of the mountain. I suspect (I couldn't quickly find the numbers to confirm this) that to get the North Ridge area at K open doesn't require being able to blow snow at as low of an elevation as being able to blow to the bottom of Heaven's Gate which is what Sugarbush would need. SB needs to be able to make snow on over 1400' of vertical to get to ski the HG area. North Ridge at K is only a 600' vertical area so even accounting for extra vertical from the top of K to the top of the North Ridge area still gives them at least a few hundred feet of cushion above where SB would need to make snow. A few hundred feet can be substantial this time of year.

Also not sure I see the relevance of someone earning turns at MRG on a few inches of snow with SB being able to open the mountain.

I'd personally rather SB offer a good product on opening day than push to have minimal coverage on a couple trails. Last year coverage on opening day on the open trails was excellent at Sugarbush. I'll take quality over rushing things just to say "we're open".


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## HowieT2 (Nov 17, 2015)

tumbler said:


> I get not competing with K or SR for the very early season opening but the Stowe one is a bit puzzling.  I just cannot figure out why SB cannot laydown snow as fast as other resorts.  My hunch is that it is the new high efficiency guns that use no air, I don't think they do too well in marginal temps.  You need the older air hogs like the K-gun that is still used.  From first hand observation I think the other resorts actually "make snow" they do guns runs, check quality and move the guns to get an even blanket.  SB turns them on and makes huge piles that have almost grass between them and making the goggle sticking slop.  I have been amazed by some of the whales they make with the gun buried.



Huh?  If stowe can't open either, how is this an indictment of SB's ability to make snow.  My understanding is that the new guns have allowed them to make more snow than they did with the older guns.  
The thing is that their water capacity is split between mt ellen and lincoln peak.  So its not like they can concentrate the total capacity on lp to get that open.  theyre making snow over at mt ellen even though that wont open to the public until mid december.  Thats good for GMVS so they can start race training, but doesnt do anything to help getting LP open early.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> If I was sitting in Boston or NYC I'd be asking "WTF?"





HowieT2 said:


> I'm sitting at my desk in NYC, fwiw.  it was about 65f yesterday so not really skiing weather.



I agree with Howie. I'd normally be sitting in my office in NJ with similar temps to NYC, but most of this week I'm actually up in one of my offices near Boston. It was close to 60 up here yesterday and in the 40s up here today, but still not enough to make me say "WTF why isn't SB open". Probably better for me personally that they don't open. Driving from NJ to MA back to NJ and then up to VT all in one week would have been a lot and I have a lot of things to get done at home. If they were open I would have been tempted to push it. Now I'll just hope they get some decent weather and can get a bunch of terrain open by around December 7th when I can spend some time up there using up my remaining vacation days for the year.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Also not sure I see the relevance of someone earning turns at MRG on a few inches of snow with SB being able to open the mountain.



The relevance being that it was not just "someone" but the SB rep who just got done saying, "gee, we are probably not going to make it" and then posts pictures of his ski day at MRG.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The relevance being that it was not just "someone" but the SB rep who just got done saying, "gee, we are probably not going to make it" and then posts pictures of his ski day at MRG.



I get who it was, but I still don't see the relevance. It could have been Win himself doing that and I still wouldn't see what that has to do with SB not being able to make enough snow to open this weekend. To me doing that and posting that simply helps to get people excited that skiing is coming and nothing more...


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2015)

Let's see how much Stowe opens with compared to SB.


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## billski (Nov 17, 2015)

tumbler said:


> Let's see how much Stowe opens with compared to SB.


  Just saw a note from Stowe, they're not going to open until Nov. 25th.  Pushed out from this weekend.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The relevance being that it was not just "someone" but the SB rep who just got done saying, "gee, we are probably not going to make it" and then posts pictures of his ski day at MRG.


Maybe because Sugarbush isn't allowing uphill hiking at this time. How's the hiking at Snowbird? Oh that's right they're not allowing hiking either


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

cdskier said:


> I get who it was, but I still don't see the relevance. It could have been Win himself doing that and I still wouldn't see what that has to do with SB not being able to make enough snow to open this weekend. To me doing that and posting that simply helps to get people excited that skiing is coming and nothing more...



My point is that it seems odd to be saying you can't open because of conditions but yet you can hike and earn turns at a place that is not blowing ANY snow.  Seems like a contradiction.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Maybe because Sugarbush isn't allowing uphill hiking at this time. How's the hiking at Snowbird? Oh that's right they're not allowing hiking either



Yes, you are right that both don't allow hiking.  I don't really care.  Honestly, it is quite dangerous to be on the slopes of Snowbird in early season with unmaintained avalanche areas, snowmaking, and other equipment operating.  Same with Sugarbush, sans the avalanche issues.


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## benski (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> My point is that it seems odd to be saying you can't open because of conditions but yet you can hike and earn turns at a place that is not blowing ANY snow.  Seems like a contradiction.



It is supposed to rain later this week so some of the snow will melt. Also based on what win said on skimrv you can ski down to Heavens Gate now but the coverage is not good enough to open.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> My point is that it seems odd to be saying you can't open because of conditions but yet you can hike and earn turns at a place that is not blowing ANY snow.  Seems like a contradiction.



Not really a contradiction. One person (or even a handful of people) being able to hike and ski on a few inches of natural snow is not the same as having a surface that can be skied on all day long by hundreds of people.


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## Smellytele (Nov 17, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Not really a contradiction. One person (or even a handful of people) being able to hike and ski on a few inches of natural snow is not the same as having a surface that can be skied on all day long by hundreds of people.



this


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## steamboat1 (Nov 17, 2015)

There were people skiing MRG over 2 weeks ago with the first natural snowfall. There were pictures posted.

As for Sugarbush they're doing fine. Been pounding upper Organ Grinder & Jester from what I understand. Besides it being to warm at lower elevation it doesn't make sense to try if it's only going to get washed away anyway


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## djd66 (Nov 17, 2015)

personally, i think it a complete waste of money and resouces to blow snow until we have sustainable cold weather.  we do not have sustainable cold weather now.  Who care about SR and KT.  I would much rather SB spend thier snow maing budget on snow when it matters - December, January and Feb.  Its fricken 60 in Boston!


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## WWF-VT (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The relevance being that it was not just "someone" but the SB rep who just got done saying, "gee, we are probably not going to make it" and then posts pictures of his ski day at MRG.



Where are the pictures on Facebook ?


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## djd66 (Nov 17, 2015)

personally, i think it a complete waste of money and resouces to blow snow until we have sustainable cold weather.  we do not have sustainable cold weather now.  Who care about SR and KT.  I would much rather SB spend thier snow maing budget on snow when it matters - December, January and Feb.  Its fricken 60 in Boston!


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## benski (Nov 17, 2015)

djd66 said:


> personally, i think it a complete waste of money and resouces to blow snow until we have sustainable cold weather.  we do not have sustainable cold weather now.  Who care about SR and KT.  I would much rather SB spend thier snow maing budget on snow when it matters - December, January and Feb.  Its fricken 60 in Boston!



I would guess if it were a waist of money Sunday river and killington would have stopped doing it by now. I assume early season there is only enough demand for 2 ski areas to operate profitably. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Newpylong (Nov 17, 2015)

djd66 said:


> personally, i think it a complete waste of money and resouces to blow snow until we have sustainable cold weather.  we do not have sustainable cold weather now.  Who care about SR and KT.  I would much rather SB spend thier snow maing budget on snow when it matters - December, January and Feb.  Its fricken 60 in Boston!



Yep. I'm willing to bet outside of a handfull of people no one cares that they arent open yet. Just look at the weather.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Where are the pictures on Facebook ?



It was on FB yesterday.  Interestingly, I see the post:



> Sugarbush Resort Umm, it just snowed here. Made turns yesterday at MRG.



But they took the picture down of their skiing at MRG, which looked pretty decent.  

I guess my overall question is do you all think they are improving other things at the sacrifice of the ski product?  If I was a homeowner there I'd probably shrug about a later opening and not being bullish with snowmaking because now I've got a ton of stuff to do in the summer and other things are better.  But when I was a passholder I was only interested in getting onto the snow ASAP.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess my overall question is do you all think they are improving other things at the sacrifice of the ski product?  If I was a homeowner there I'd probably shrug about a later opening and not being bullish with snowmaking because now I've got a ton of stuff to do in the summer and other things are better.  But when I was a passholder I was only interested in getting onto the snow ASAP.



No, I think they produce an excellent ski product and aren't sacrificing anything there. They want a high quality product for opening day and I can appreciate that. If they weren't attempting to make snow then I would be concerned. The other day they had 80 guns going on Upper Jester/Downspout to HG and 12 on Upper Organgrinder. 92 guns at LP at once doesn't sound like sacrificing anything to me.

As a passholder, I consider anything in November a bonus. Early season is way too dependent on weather to consider it a given. As long as I see them trying, I'm happy.


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## shadyjay (Nov 17, 2015)

Believe me, if we could make this weekend, we would open.  But it's all about delivering a quality product, as Win has said many times on here in the past.  The weather so far this month hasn't been ideal for snowmaking.  We were all set to fire up Nov 1, but it was 60 deg during the day and 40 at night.  And the first couple nights two weeks ago we made snow, temps were marginal, even up top.  If it was a consistant 30s during the day and 10s-20s at night, then no problem.  But it hasn't been.  It has enabled us to get important things done like repairs, assist with the new Valley House lift, etc.  

The Sugarbush snow report has said in it since November 1 that the mountain is closed until opening day.  I see no mention of the same on the MRG page, so they may have the policy of "hike it if you can".  

And for those looking for some snowmaking "porn", this is the link for all my snowmaking shots this season:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/albums/72157660257834278

Thanks, and enjoy!


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## billski (Nov 18, 2015)

It feels to me that the PR guy is a bit out of synch with the snowmaking strategy.  The comments made (MRG, snow photos, skiing that day (Sometimes in the grass perhaps?) seem more personal than corporate.  Stowe also asserts having a quality product and has no interested in being involved in the snow arms race.  I'm a bit surprised he hasn't had his reigns pulled back.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> It was on FB yesterday.  Interestingly, I see the post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 resoundingly, No.  If the other major mtns were opening and SB was sitting on their hands, sure I would have a problem with it.  But that's not the case.  Kton is open but that is extremely limited.  I was with a friend last night who skis 80+ days there, and while he did ski last weekend, he isn't going back until more terrain is open.  The bottom line is that this is a weather issue effecting everyone in the northeast equally.  SB has continually made modest improvements to the snowmaking system and has a reasonable strategy in deploying it.  Of course, until mt ellen opens, the trail count will pale in comparison to others, but there isnt much demand until then anyway.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 18, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> resoundingly, No.  If the other major mtns were opening and SB was sitting on their hands, sure I would have a problem with it.  But that's not the case.  Kton is open but that is extremely limited.    The bottom line is that this is a weather issue effecting everyone in the northeast equally.



This.I dont get your angle on this one TB.Everybody is having the same problem getting open and SB has almost never been a top 3 opener.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

It's not like they're only investing in real estate & neglecting the mountain. They just spent $3 mil for a new chair lift.


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## Tin (Nov 23, 2015)

Any truth to the rumors of Mt. Ellen's snowmaking out of commission for a few weeks?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 23, 2015)

I was at Sugarbush / Mt Ellen this weekend and didn't hear anything about issues with snowmaking.  The guns are lined up and ready to go on the lower section of Inverness for GMVS.  My guess is that the current snowmaking focus is on getting Lincoln Peak open.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 23, 2015)

I read on the MRV site that a rock got into the system somehow and blew out the main pump.  1-2 week repair/replacement time frame.


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## benski (Nov 23, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I read on the MRV site that a rock got into the system somehow and blew out the main pump.  1-2 week repair/replacement time frame.



I did not see it on skimrv or on Facebook. 

In terms of snowmaking the two mountains are to separate areas since the systems are not connected. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2015)

benski said:


> I did not see it on skimrv or on Facebook.



Agreed, I didn't see anything either. Is there another MRV site somewhere I don't know about?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 23, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Agreed, I didn't see anything either. Is there another MRV site somewhere I don't know about?



Win referenced a water pipe break at Mt Ellen in a post on 11/15 and that it was supposed to be repaired last week.  It must not have been be a big deal because no one mentioned it this weekend.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 23, 2015)

I saw it posted on Kzone, my mistake (too many ski websites to keep track of!!!).  It was posted by a guy who works parking at both Killington and Sugarbush.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 27, 2015)

Tough break. Day two of operation & Super Bravo & Heavens Gate are on wind hold.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Tough break. Day two of operation & Super Bravo & Heavens Gate are on wind hold.



Unfortunately that is a regular problem 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2015)

They finally lifted the wind holds shortly after noon. Unfortunately not a whole lot you can do about wind. At least mid-season there's a better chance you'll find some lifts not impacted when there are wind holds.


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## Newpylong (Nov 27, 2015)

Like that nice new Valley House quad!


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2015)

It was windy as hell in the valley on Thursday and still very breezy (and warm) on Friday, it must have been crazy in the mountains.


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2015)

Any other mountains still downloading or just SB?


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## steamboat1 (Nov 30, 2015)

Today is the last day to purchase a quad pack.


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## chuckstah (Nov 30, 2015)

Waterville Valley is still downloading also.


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## mrvpilgrim (Nov 30, 2015)

Lasted Snow report on their web site sates that they will be TTB in the AM


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2015)

T2B tomorrow!


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## steamboat1 (Dec 16, 2015)

Not to shabby.

As per Win today: We had 118 guns combined blowing on both mountains.

Stowe reported 120, K >120


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## Newpylong (Dec 16, 2015)

Hats off to anyone who has been able to make snow during this farce!


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## shadyjay (Dec 16, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Hats off to ayone who has been able to make snow during this farce!



Thanks... it's been tough to say the least.  My regular-scheduled shift hasn't made snow in a week and we got switched to days last weekend.  Interesting working around all the people.  Hope to god this pattern changes at some point after Christmas.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 27, 2015)

My hats off to Win for giving almost daily plans, communications & answering questions over in the MRV forum. Sometimes more than once a day. I've never seen anything like it from any other owner/manager of a ski resort.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> My hats off to Win for giving almost daily plans, communications & answering questions over in the MRV forum. Sometimes more than once a day. I've never seen anything like it from any other owner/manager of a ski resort.



His openness and transparency are certainly very refreshing. Even on mountain my experience is that he has always been a pretty visible and hands on owner and easily approachable.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 28, 2015)

cdskier said:


> His openness and transparency are certainly very refreshing. Even on mountain my experience is that he has always been a pretty visible and hands on owner and easily approachable.



Yes I've seen him greeting people on lift lines, walking around the base lodge & on the slopes skiing. Almost hit him with the bathroom door up at Allyn's Lodge once.


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## rocks860 (Dec 28, 2015)

I'm praying for some snow right now, I'm up there for a week starting 1/23


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not to shabby.
> 
> As per Win today: We had 118 guns combined blowing on both mountains.
> 
> Stowe reported 120, K >120



That is good to see.  I was under the impression that they had less capacity.  Very good.  

And yes Win is a very good manager.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That is good to see.  I was under the impression that they had less capacity.  Very good.
> 
> And yes Win is a very good manager.



On 12/19 Win reported they had 193 guns going between Lincoln Peak and Mt Ellen which certainly surprised me (in a good way).

Also, just for comparison's sake...in terms of open terrain K (with their massive snowmaking system) has 8 miles and 84 acres open. SB has 7.6 miles and 74 acres open. I do think part of that might be due to decisions made by mountain ops. K seemed to try to expand too quickly and not put enough base on trails which seemed to hurt them during the warm ups. SB focused more on building depth on open trails before moving on. That's not to say SB didn't still have issues as there were still a number of bare/thin spots on some trails when the weather got warm.


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## rocks860 (Dec 28, 2015)

Looking at the webcam from yesterday vs today it's like a night and day difference


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## IWannaGoFast (Jan 25, 2016)

*If a lift isn't running, is it really "open"?*

Is anyone else getting frustrated at Sugarbush's constant lift maintenance issues?


----------



## Tin (Jan 25, 2016)

What happened this weekend? I almost went up last Tuesday but knew the wind would cause havoc and of course they essentially shut the mountain down. Surprised they couldn't run anything. Kind of sad when I have more faith in Jay Peak running lifts than SB.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

What issues? All 16 lifts were running fine Saturday as scheduled. I think Slide Brook had a delay in the morning on Sunday, but when I checked the report in the afternoon it was no longer listed as being delayed. Other than wind holds (which aren't SB's fault), what other issues have they had lately? Lifts have been fine the past few weeks when I've been there.


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## IWannaGoFast (Jan 25, 2016)

Slidebrook was scheduled for 10am yesterday, opened late, then closed with passengers on it due to maintenance, then opened, then closed again with passengers on it (me this time). Last week the Summit chair had similar issues and these are by no means the only recent examples.  Obviously every mountain has lift problems from time to time which is not an issue but it is the frequency with which they seem to be occurring at Sugarbush which is troubling.  It's not only difficult to plan your runs for the day with unscheduled closures, but getting stuck on chairs isn't a whole lot of fun either.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

I heard Summit had some issues a couple weeks ago where they were getting some irregular electric impulses causing it to stop. They installed a new drive in it this past off-season and thought perhaps it was related to that. They were installing a new card in it to address those issues, but not sure what happened last weekend. I hadn't heard of anything, but last weekend I wasn't paying close attention to what was going on at SB as I had to deal with my truck having issues on the drive up to SB and then finding someone on Saturday to fix it. So I never got to ski MLK weekend.

SB has invested quite a bit in lifts lately with many of them practically being rebuilt the past couple years with new drives, electrical systems, etc. From what I've seen, lift issues this year have been pretty limited. I'm not saying they haven't happened, but I do think there has been a drastic decline over the past couple years in issues.

Wind on the other hand is another story. I don't know why exactly, but SB seems much more impacted by wind than their neighbors to the north or south. Could just be the orientation of the mountain or lifts. I do know that when they have wind holds, they are definitely justified though. Having personally been on a couple lifts right before they were shut down due to wind, there's definitely a reason they close them.


----------



## rocks860 (Jan 25, 2016)

I took slide brook and summit yesterday, no issues when I was on them but I did see that slide brook opened late. The summit chair is also the slowest chair of all time


----------



## rocks860 (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm debating whether or not to try castle rock today but paradise was pretty terrible so I can't imagine castle rock is doing too great. Maybe I'll do that for my last run


----------



## benski (Jan 25, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I'm debating whether or not to try castle rock today but paradise was pretty terrible so I can't imagine castle rock is doing too great. Maybe I'll do that for my last run



Paradise gets a lot more traffic. Castlerock is definitely better.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

benski said:


> Paradise gets a lot more traffic. Castlerock is definitely better.



Agreed, although I didn't go over to CR this weekend so can't personally tell you how it is. Past experience simply agrees with benski.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 25, 2016)

Some of the natural trails over at Mt. Ellen were in good shape when I skied there Thurs. Mostly on the lower mountain though. Exterminator definitely wasn't worth a repeat. Cliffs & the trail skiers left (forget the name) were both good. Best run for me was Semi Tough over at Inverness since so few had skied it. Might be worth your while to make a few runs over there.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 25, 2016)

IWannaGoFast said:


> Slidebrook was scheduled for 10am yesterday, opened late, then closed with passengers on it due to maintenance, then opened, then closed again with passengers on it (me this time). Last week the Summit chair had similar issues and these are by no means the only recent examples.  Obviously every mountain has lift problems from time to time which is not an issue but it is the frequency with which they seem to be occurring at Sugarbush which is troubling.  It's not only difficult to plan your runs for the day with unscheduled closures, but getting stuck on chairs isn't a whole lot of fun either.



dunno, i skied LP saturday and mt ellen sunday without any lift issues although I did see 2 lift mechanics on snowmobiles coming up through slidebrook as I was on the runout from lower FIS at about 11:30.
Haven't heard any talk of lift issues this season.  They overhauled most of the lifts after experiencing problems two seasons ago.
But I sympathize with your plight.  I got stuck on the slidebrook lift once maybe 8 years ago for about 15 minutes and it was not pleasant.  way high up there and windy as all get out.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Some of the natural trails over at Mt. Ellen were in good shape when I skied there Thurs. Mostly on the lower mountain though. Exterminator definitely wasn't worth a repeat. Cliffs & the trail skiers left (forget the name) were both good. Best run for me was Semi Tough over at Inverness since so few had skied it. Might be worth your while to make a few runs over there.



skied semi tough yesterday, not in good shape.  neither was Tumbler.  surprisingly Lower FIS was very good.  Need some fresh snow before the natural snow trails are good again.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> skied semi tough yesterday, not in good shape.  neither was Tumbler.  surprisingly Lower FIS was very good.  Need some fresh snow before the natural snow trails are good again.



They did have 3"-5" the evening before I skied them which could have made the difference. Plus the fact the mountain was empty the day I skied so they weren't skied off. Weekend traffic probably changed that. I love lower FIS but hate the traverse out at the bottom which is why I don't ski it often.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Some of the natural trails over at Mt. Ellen were in good shape when I skied there Thurs. Mostly on the lower mountain though. Exterminator definitely wasn't worth a repeat. Cliffs & the trail skiers left (forget the name) were both good. Best run for me was Semi Tough over at Inverness since so few had skied it. Might be worth your while to make a few runs over there.



It is interesting how opinions differ. A local that I rode the lift with once on Saturday at ME said Exterminator was in great shape. I skied it and would tend to agree more with you than with him. The headwall is quite thin, but below that was decent. If you take either Bravo to the Exterminator cutoff or take Elbow to the Bravo/Exterminator cutoff you'd probably miss the worst part of Exterminator.

Skiers left of Cliffs would be Hammerhead. I thought it was in better shape than Exterminator on Saturday, but quite a few rocks and/or scraped off spots on the top 1/3 of the trail. Lower down it still had some nice snow. I posted a pic of Hammerhead in the other "Sugarbush on top" thread yesterday. That was admittedly lower down where it was already better though.

Overall most of the natural trails could use more snow. No doubt about that.


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## rocks860 (Jan 25, 2016)

benski said:


> Paradise gets a lot more traffic. Castlerock is definitely better.



Maybe I'll  check it out Thursday. I don't think my legs can handle it today


----------



## rocks860 (Jan 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> dunno, i skied LP saturday and mt ellen sunday without any lift issues although I did see 2 lift mechanics on snowmobiles coming up through slidebrook as I was on the runout from lower FIS at about 11:30.
> Haven't heard any talk of lift issues this season.  They overhauled most of the lifts after experiencing problems two seasons ago.
> But I sympathize with your plight.  I got stuck on the slidebrook lift once maybe 8 years ago for about 15 minutes and it was not pleasant.  way high up there and windy as all get out.



I skied lower FIS yesterday and it was great, however I forgot how much I hate that runout. The woods off paradise have a lot of snow


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## WWF-VT (Jan 25, 2016)

I skied Lower FIS multiple times this weekend - it's currently the best natural snow trail at Mt Ellen.  FIS was fun on skiers right yesterday if you're a fan of man made snow.   I thought Semi Tough was OK both Saturday and Sunday, Hammerhead needs more snow.  I didn't bother with a bunch of other natural snow trails.  Biggest disappointment is the man made and grooming that has taken the soul out of Brambles and turned it into just another fast groomer.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Biggest disappointment is the man made and grooming that has taken the soul out of Brambles and turned it into just another fast groomer.



Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thinks that.


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## Newpylong (Jan 25, 2016)

Has something changed with Brambles recently? They always used to make snow on the lower 2/3 and groom the snot out of for slalom.


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## tumbler (Jan 25, 2016)

It wasnt closed as often for racing as it is now.


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I skied lower FIS yesterday and it was great, however I forgot how much I hate that runout. The woods off paradise have a lot of snow
> View attachment 18738View attachment 18739



The run out is a work out!  When you get out of the woods then you have to go up or ski to the very slow double which serves as a great resting point.


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## djd66 (Jan 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> dunno, i skied LP saturday and mt ellen sunday without any lift issues although I did see 2 lift mechanics on snowmobiles coming up through slidebrook as I was on the runout from lower FIS at about 11:30.
> Haven't heard any talk of lift issues this season.  They overhauled most of the lifts after experiencing problems two seasons ago.
> But I sympathize with your plight.  I got stuck on the slidebrook lift once maybe 8 years ago for about 15 minutes and it was not pleasant.  way high up there and windy as all get out.



I rode slidebrook on Sunday around 1ish the lift stopped for 15 minutes. Made 1 run at my Ellen and then decided to head back as conditions at south were much better. On the ride back the lift stopped again for about 15-20 mins.  I was with my 11yo daughter - and we were freezing!  Not sure why the issue was, but I don't think I will be riding that lift anytime soon. I wish the slidebrook chair had bubbles or were a gondola. Discussions during the wait were about the probobility of a lift evac. (I had the pleasure of being in the heavens gate evac with my son 2 years ago). I have not had many issues with the lifts at Sugarbush, but I hope they get these issue worked out.


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## rocks860 (Jan 25, 2016)

Huh I rode it at maybe 1130 and had no issues. I don't think slidebrook has ever stopped when I've been on it


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I skied Lower FIS multiple times this weekend - it's currently the best natural snow trail at Mt Ellen.  FIS was fun on skiers right yesterday if you're a fan of man made snow.   I thought Semi Tough was OK both Saturday and Sunday, Hammerhead needs more snow.  I didn't bother with a bunch of other natural snow trails.  Biggest disappointment is the man made and grooming that has taken the soul out of Brambles and turned it into just another fast groomer.





cdskier said:


> Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thinks that.





Newpylong said:


> Has something changed with Brambles recently? They always used to make snow on the lower 2/3 and groom the snot out of for slalom.



Yes, what did they do to Brambles?


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## WWF-VT (Jan 25, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> Has something changed with Brambles recently? They always used to make snow on the lower 2/3 and groom the snot out of for slalom.



You must be thinking of a different Brambles.   GMVS just started snowmaking on Brambles last year -IIRC.  It used to be all natural snow with just some blow over from Inverness.  It gets a lot of sun and used to be all soft moguls with limited traffic off  the Inverness chair.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I skied Lower FIS multiple times this weekend - it's currently the best natural snow trail at Mt Ellen.  FIS was fun on skiers right yesterday if you're a fan of man made snow.   I thought Semi Tough was OK both Saturday and Sunday, Hammerhead needs more snow.  I didn't bother with a bunch of other natural snow trails.  Biggest disappointment is the man made and grooming that has taken the soul out of Brambles and turned it into just another fast groomer.





cdskier said:


> Glad to hear I'm not the only one that thinks that.





Newpylong said:


> Has something changed with Brambles recently? They always used to make snow on the lower 2/3 and groom the snot out of for slalom.





WWF-VT said:


> You must be thinking of a different Brambles.   GMVS just started snowmaking on Brambles last year -IIRC.  It used to be all natural snow with just some blow over from Inverness.  It gets a lot of sun and used to be all soft moguls with limited traffic off  the Inverness chair.



I know that they widened and graded the lower 2/3 of it several years ago.  They may have made some snow on it using the shared line with Inverness.  But obviously it has been a while since I skied it.  I'm talking about 2000-2004 and then 2007-2011 timeframe.  I want to say it was regraded and widened in 2004 or so.


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## tumbler (Jan 25, 2016)

Been making snow on Brambles for a long time, drag the hoses through the woods.  It was every year back in the 90's but maybe they took a few years off.  Used to make snow on Hammerhead too dragging hoses through the woods from Cliffs.  Bravo headwall also but there is now a pipe through the woods.  I ran into it along with hoses last weekend.....Surprise!!


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> You must be thinking of a different Brambles.   GMVS just started snowmaking on Brambles last year -IIRC.  It used to be all natural snow with just some blow over from Inverness.  It gets a lot of sun and used to be all soft moguls with limited traffic off  the Inverness chair.



Yes, here's some pics from 2014 when I really liked it and thought it had great character (although clearly this was not a day where it saw limited traffic based on my second pic)


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

SRO just posted this photo on FB:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

Here's one of my shots of Brambles from 2011:












Snowmonster on it....where he is standing used to be trees IIRC:






This is the part that I think they regraded:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

2010 looking down...






I think this is a shot of it in 2008:


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2016)

djd66 said:


> I rode slidebrook on Sunday around 1ish the lift stopped for 15 minutes. Made 1 run at my Ellen and then decided to head back as conditions at south were much better. On the ride back the lift stopped again for about 15-20 mins.  I was with my 11yo daughter - and we were freezing!  Not sure why the issue was, but I don't think I will be riding that lift anytime soon. I wish the slidebrook chair had bubbles or were a gondola. Discussions during the wait were about the probobility of a lift evac. (I had the pleasure of being in the heavens gate evac with my son 2 years ago). I have not had many issues with the lifts at Sugarbush, but I hope they get these issue worked out.



My wife were talking about that.  We were discussing which chair would be the worst and that chair came to mind for both of us.  The valley before you get to Mt Ellen the chair is pretty high and above the tree line.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Newpylong (Jan 26, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> You must be thinking of a different Brambles.   GMVS just started snowmaking on Brambles last year -IIRC.  It used to be all natural snow with just some blow over from Inverness.  It gets a lot of sun and used to be all soft moguls with limited traffic off  the Inverness chair.



Nope. I'm a GMVS '99 grad and when I was there from 95 to 99 snow was made on it every year and we trained SL there when they were doing GS on Inverness. Only the top was natural above the crossover.

Perhaps they stopped that practice in the interim years?

I just asked someone who still works there and they said it's since been widened, with pipes being installed on the actual trail vs dragging through woods.


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## shadyjay (Jan 26, 2016)

I had the fun pleasure a week or so ago of setting up Brambles for snowmaking.  There is no pipeline on Brambles, and hoses need to be stretched through the woods from Inverness.  Luckily the Inverness pipeline is on skier's left and to reach Brambles, some hydrants needed 2 lengths of 75' hoses (x2 for air AND water) and others, 1 75' and 1 25'.  What they DID do was install tower mounts this year on the lower half, but that's it.

TrailBoss' 2008 shot of Brambles above (2nd post, 2nd pic) is still accurate.  Top is still narrow and trees.  One of my favorite runs at the MEllen.  Hardly any traffic and easy to find good snow, as long as its not closed for racing/training.  After all, it better be good snow over there... it's a long hike for me on my board from Elbow/main mtn, across Northway, though I can usually keep speed to avoid flatting out, until I get to top of the Inverness chair.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> I had the fun pleasure a week or so ago of setting up Brambles for snowmaking.  There is no pipeline on Brambles, and hoses need to be stretched through the woods from Inverness.  Luckily the Inverness pipeline is on skier's left and to reach Brambles, some hydrants needed 2 lengths of 75' hoses (x2 for air AND water) and others, 1 75' and 1 25'.  What they DID do was install tower mounts this year on the lower half, but that's it.
> 
> TrailBoss' 2008 shot of Brambles above (2nd post, 2nd pic) is still accurate.  Top is still narrow and trees.  One of my favorite runs at the MEllen.  Hardly any traffic and easy to find good snow, as long as its not closed for racing/training.  After all, it better be good snow over there... it's a long hike for me on my board from Elbow/main mtn, across Northway, though I can usually keep speed to avoid flatting out, until I get to top of the Inverness chair.



Interesting.  Are we correct that it was regraded at some point in the last ten years or so?


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## Newpylong (Jan 26, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> I had the fun pleasure a week or so ago of setting up Brambles for snowmaking.  There is no pipeline on Brambles, and hoses need to be stretched through the woods from Inverness.  Luckily the Inverness pipeline is on skier's left and to reach Brambles, some hydrants needed 2 lengths of 75' hoses (x2 for air AND water) and others, 1 75' and 1 25'.  What they DID do was install tower mounts this year on the lower half, but that's it.
> 
> TrailBoss' 2008 shot of Brambles above (2nd post, 2nd pic) is still accurate.  Top is still narrow and trees.  One of my favorite runs at the MEllen.  Hardly any traffic and easy to find good snow, as long as its not closed for racing/training.  After all, it better be good snow over there... it's a long hike for me on my board from Elbow/main mtn, across Northway, though I can usually keep speed to avoid flatting out, until I get to top of the Inverness chair.



Thanks for the correction Shady. That makes more sense to me and now that I look back he said "snowmaking equipment" not pipes. 

Way back when I made snow we used to run fans hundred and hundreds of feet from hydrants. No fun.


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## neversummer (Jan 30, 2016)

I was actually looking for the sugar low blood but I'll check in at Sugarbush would build the Leo


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## Smellytele (Jan 30, 2016)

neversummer said:


> I was actually looking for the sugar low blood but I'll check in at Sugarbush would build the Leo



Scotty - Is that you?


----------



## neversummer (Jan 30, 2016)

Nope Grover here


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't understand that


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## neversummer (Jan 30, 2016)

Like


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2016)

neversummer said:


> I was actually looking for the sugar low blood but I'll check in at Sugarbush would build the Leo



Say what?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 31, 2016)

My Scotty translator doesn't even work on that one...


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 31, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> My Scotty translator doesn't even work on that one...



Time to ban


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## ScottySkis (Jan 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Say what?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


High blood pressure

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## catsup948 (Jan 31, 2016)

Might be a stupid question.  Xwhaler and I are heading to the Hyde Away Tuesday night.  We have decided to just got for it no matter the weather Wednesday.  Would Sugarbush be on complete wind hold with what appears to be south to southwest winds?  Rain and warm temps actually would be decent skiing otherwise.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2016)

Depends on the winds. Summit, heavens gate and north Lynx will sometimes go on wind hole with everything else open


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2016)

I honestly can't remember which direction of wind impacts Sugarbush the most. There are times the entire mountain is shut down, and times just one lift is impacted. I've always thought it would be a good idea to make note of the direction of wind when they have various holds...but never actually did it.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 31, 2016)

*Status update for Sun, Jan 31* 

"With a warm front coming in for the next couple of days and to preserve the condition of the trails, we'll be closing all natural snow terrain tomorrow morning. "


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## WWF-VT (Jan 31, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> Might be a stupid question.  Xwhaler and I are heading to the Hyde Away Tuesday night.  We have decided to just got for it no matter the weather Wednesday.  Would Sugarbush be on complete wind hold with what appears to be south to southwest winds?  Rain and warm temps actually would be decent skiing otherwise.



_NOAA Forecast:

Snow and sleet likely before 7am, then sleet between 7am and 8am, then rain after 8am.  High near 46. Very windy, with a south wind 50 to 55 mph decreasing to 37 to 42 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 70 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 100%. New precipitation amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible.
_
You might want to reconsider Wednesday.....


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## catsup948 (Jan 31, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> _NOAA Forecast:
> 
> Snow and sleet likely before 7am, then sleet between 7am and 8am, then rain after 8am.  High near 46. Very windy, with a south wind 50 to 55 mph decreasing to 37 to 42 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 70 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 100%. New precipitation amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible.
> _
> You might want to reconsider Wednesday.....



We will ski somewhere.  If Sugarbush is spinning enough lifts to make it worth it we go there.  Otherwise there are lower elevation options.  This winter sucks!


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> We will ski somewhere.  If Sugarbush is spinning enough lifts to make it worth it we go there.  Otherwise there are lower elevation options.  This winter sucks!



Sugarbush didn't get to 100% open in 2014 until Feb 14...still plenty of time for things to turn around!


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> *Status update for Sun, Jan 31*
> 
> "With a warm front coming in for the next couple of days and to preserve the condition of the trails, we'll be closing all natural snow terrain tomorrow morning. "



Saw this earlier on the report. I think it is a wise decision to try and preserve whatever they can.

Spin-Out/Lower-FIS were skiing very nicely on Saturday (although the end of the traverse was pretty thin and rocky). Hopefully some of this survives the weather this week and then we get some new snow after the warmup so they can reopen these type of trails.


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## sugarbushskier (Feb 1, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> Might be a stupid question.  Xwhaler and I are heading to the Hyde Away Tuesday night.  We have decided to just got for it no matter the weather Wednesday.  Would Sugarbush be on complete wind hold with what appears to be south to southwest winds?  Rain and warm temps actually would be decent skiing otherwise.



Read somewhere on SB website forecast links about the potential for "strong and damaging winds" from this storm, so I'm guessing Wed/Thurs might be tough up there.  I decided to stay local and just get out for a day trip early this week as I'm afraid the landscape after this midweek storm will look completely different.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 1, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Spin-Out/Lower-FIS were skiing very nicely on Saturday (although the end of the traverse was pretty thin and rocky).


Yes the trail was very nice. The traverse out makes it so not worth it though.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes the trail was very nice. The traverse out makes it so not worth it though.



The one time I skied it last week it was real nice but the traverse made me want to die


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2016)

The traverse is good exercise!


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## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

cdskier said:


> The traverse is good exercise!



How does it compare to the East Bowl runout at Burke?


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## steamboat1 (Feb 1, 2016)

cdskier said:


> The traverse is good exercise!



So is cross country skiing, if I wanted exercise I'd do that. That last uphill before the double chair is the killer. Yes you can ski down to the double but if you want to get back to GMX you have to make that last climb. To bad it would be to expensive to put a detachable mid station on Slide Brook where it crosses lower FIS so you could load there. Not only would it get you out without having to traverse but it would take you to the North Ridge chair eliminating the need to ride GMX. You could actually lap lower FIS then.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So is cross country skiing, if I wanted exercise I'd do that. That last uphill before the double chair is the killer. Yes you can ski down to the double but if you want to get back to GMX you have to make that last climb. To bad it would be to expensive to put a detachable mid station on Slide Brook where it crosses lower FIS so you could load there. Not only would it get you out without having to traverse but it would take you to the North Ridge chair eliminating the need to ride GMX. You could actually lap lower FIS then.



I ski down to the base of the terrain park and then hike up to GMX usually...

Making it too easy to ski Lower FIS would mean more traffic and then the trail wouldn't hold the snow as well as it currently does.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 1, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So is cross country skiing, if I wanted exercise I'd do that. That last uphill before the double chair is the killer. Yes you can ski down to the double but if you want to get back to GMX you have to make that last climb. To bad it would be to expensive to put a detachable mid station on Slide Brook where it crosses lower FIS so you could load there. Not only would it get you out without having to traverse but it would take you to the North Ridge chair eliminating the need to ride GMX. You could actually lap lower FIS then.



What is the point of hiking up to the GMX ?  Take a ride on the Sunny D and a trip down Sugar Run to get back to the GMX.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 1, 2016)

It's a wasted run on a slow and short chair


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> What is the point of hiking up to the GMX ?  Take a ride on the Sunny D and a trip down Sugar Run to get back to the GMX.



For me personally I usually just prefer not to sit on the slow double. Hiking to GMX seems faster to me than taking Sunny D.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

Perhaps it is grown in, or gone, but one used to be able to cut across the Sunny D area by using a small cut in the trees and end up just above the GMX base.  You had to look for it....we're talking a skier width or so across and it ran across from the exit onto the T-Bar slope all the way across.  If you missed it, there used to be a handle tow (Tommy's Toy) that you could use to get up part of the way to GMX.


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## benski (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Perhaps it is grown in, or gone, but one used to be able to cut across the Sunny D area by using a small cut in the trees and end up just above the GMX base.  You had to look for it....we're talking a skier width or so across and it ran across from the exit onto the T-Bar slope all the way across.  If you missed it, there used to be a handle tow (Tommy's Toy) that you could use to get up part of the way to GMX.



Thats been roped off.


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## slatham (Feb 1, 2016)

That cut through to GMX was not roped off last year. Not sure why they would do that. If we're referring to the same route.


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## benski (Feb 1, 2016)

slatham said:


> That cut through to GMX was not roped off last year. Not sure why they would do that. If we're referring to the same route.



I think they try to stop people from cutting threw the terrain park since you would have to cross at the base of a jump


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

benski said:


> I think they try to stop people from cutting threw the terrain park since you would have to cross at the base of a jump



I recall that being an issue.  You really had to look twice before crossing.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 1, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes the trail was very nice. The traverse out makes it so not worth it though.


The trail is in good shape because of the run out.  No one wants to ski it.  That's why the snow has been so good on it less skier traffic.  Castle rock was skiing great when it was hike to, less skier traffic.


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## dlague (Feb 1, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> The one time I skied it last week it was real nice but the traverse made me want to die



Yes it is killer!  I think it stays nice because those who know the bottom part stay away.  I like to think of it as back country skiing so I can say I did it.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Feb 1, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Making it too easy to ski Lower FIS would mean more traffic and then the trail wouldn't hold the snow as well as it currently does.


If that's the case they should take out all the lifts. The whole mountain would ski much better wouldn't it?


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## steamboat1 (Feb 1, 2016)

slatham said:


> That cut through to GMX was not roped off last year. Not sure why they would do that. If we're referring to the same route.





benski said:


> I think they try to stop people from cutting threw the terrain park since you would have to cross at the base of a jump


 
If I had hiked that last hump & then found the cut across to GMX closed I would've been really pissed.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> If that's the case they should take out all the lifts. The whole mountain would ski much better wouldn't it?



This traverse is a workout, but it isn't quite THAT bad. This is essentially one trail we're talking about that has a unique character for lack of a better way to describe it.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 2, 2016)

benski said:


> Thats been roped off.



It has not been roped off this season, and even if it is, you can still cut through by taking the last traverse to the left right before the runout goes downhill.
Going down to the sunnyD is for the birds.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 2, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> Going down to the sunnyD is for the birds.



Wish I had known this beforehand since a bird shit on my jacket when I rode that lift Sat...... Serious.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Wish I had known this beforehand since a bird shit on my jacket when I rode that lift Sat...... Serious.



oh snap! LOL!  sorry bro.  next time you're skiing mellon, let me know and I'll show you that and some other hidden treasures.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 2, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> oh snap! LOL!  sorry bro.  next time you're skiing mellon, let me know and I'll show you that and some other hidden treasures.



Went there a couple of Thursdays already because of the cheap tickets. Probably be back a few times before the end of the season. Saturday I skied mostly at Lincoln with my daughter but took Slidebrook over to Ellen for lunch & a few runs. It would be nice to hook up for some turns. I already have a guide who showed me some hidden stashes at Lincoln. He's not on this site but on TGR & a fishing site I frequent (met him through the fishing site). Perhaps you know him? His handle is LIfishVT. or something like that. He works weekends at Lincoln & has gotten me employee discount tickets a few times.

edit: on TGR he goes by 2ski2fish4ever.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Went there a couple of Thursdays already because of the cheap tickets. Probably be back a few times before the end of the season. Saturday I skied mostly at Lincoln with my daughter but took Slidebrook over to Ellen for lunch & a few runs. It would be nice to hook up for some turns. I already have a guide who showed me some hidden stashes at Lincoln. He's not on this site but on TGR & a fishing site I frequent (met him through the fishing site). Perhaps you know him? His handle is LIfishVT. or something like that. He works weekends at Lincoln & has gotten me employee discount tickets a few times.
> 
> edit: on TGR he goes by 2ski2fish4ever.



from Brooklyn, for the day?  That's a haul.

dunno any fishing people, but if he works Lincoln peak on weekends, I'm sure I know him by face.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2016)

i've done no hotel day trips to sugarbush and stowe. wouldn't recommend it in general. kills the neck. and that drive home can be sleepy dangerous.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 2, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> from Brooklyn, for the day?  That's a haul.
> 
> dunno any fishing people, but if he works Lincoln peak on weekends, I'm sure I know him by face.


Don't do day trips to VT from Brooklyn, actually weekends are a rarity for me. Only went for the weekend for my daughter who works full time, we stayed Fri./Sat. night. Skied K Sun. Me I'm mostly a weekday skier, usually ski 3-4 days every other week in VT, mostly at K but I bounce around.

My friend works weekends at Sugarbush, his wife is full time at Sugarbush in real estate . Not sure if his son still works there.


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

Good god the webcams are depressing today, especially castlerock


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

They sure are. I'll be curious to see how aggressive they are with re-surfacing of trails after this. We desperately need some decent natural snow now.


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

Looks like snow in the forecast for the next couple weeks


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

Presidents weekend is the one weekend I skip every year going up there...so I'm sure they will get a nice dump right before that!


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## Whitey (Feb 4, 2016)

I pulled the trigger about a week ago on an on mountain condo at SB for MA school vacation.    God I hope we aren't sitting in the condo playing Scrabble for the whole time.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

I love how this thread is still going after 11 whole years!


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

SB just posted some pictures on Facebook that show Castlerock and Paradise after the rain...pretty ugly...


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

Wow I didn't even realize it had been going that long. I just went back and read the first 7 pages, talk about a blast from the past. I was just telling my gf last week about how the set up used to be when I was growing up. Anyone know where I can find some pictures of what the old base area at LP looked like?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Wow I didn't even realize it had been going that long. I just went back and read the first 7 pages, talk about a blast from the past. I was just telling my gf last week about how the set up used to be when I was growing up. Anyone know where I can find some pictures of what the old base area at LP looked like?



Bushmogulmaster used to run his own page on Sugarbush history that was really good.  I will see if I can find it.


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Bushmogulmaster used to run his own page on Sugarbush history that was really good.  I will see if I can find it.



Thanks!


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

I'd love to see a book written about the history of Sugarbush like the one that was written about Killington. I find ski area history fascinating...


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

I've been skiing there my whole life, basically since 85. I know I've seen many iterations of the place I just can't remember exactly what it used to look like. I do remember when gmx seemed like the fastest lift ever and only went up to where slidebrook lets off


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## WWF-VT (Feb 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I'd love to see a book written about the history of Sugarbush like the one that was written about Killington. I find ski area history fascinating...



You have probably already seen this book available locally that covers Sugarbush and MRG

https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/9780738573656/Skiing-in-the-Mad-River-Valley


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> You have probably already seen this book available locally that covers Sugarbush and MRG
> 
> https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/9780738573656/Skiing-in-the-Mad-River-Valley



Actually I don't recall seeing that book anywhere. Who has it locally? I'll definitely have to keep an eye out for it and pick it up though.

On a related "history" note...I've spent the last hour or so reading this thread from the beginning. I'm only up to around page 40! Very interesting to hear what was discussed way back when this thread was started. Some of the things like a potential new Valley House Quad and the issues it could cause at the end of the VHT and with overcrowding the VH side of the mountain are quite interesting now that 10 years later that new lift has been installed. I've personally only been skiing at Sugarbush since 2004, so I don't have as much personal experience with the mountain as many others here do. It has only been my "home" mountain since 2011-2012, so very interesting as well to see my perception compared to other people's over time.


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## tumbler (Feb 4, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I've been skiing there my whole life, basically since 85. I know I've seen many iterations of the place I just can't remember exactly what it used to look like. I do remember when gmx seemed like the fastest lift ever and only went up to where slidebrook lets off



No, GMX went up to Mid flats and was then moved to replace the Northridge Double.  The snail replaced GMX and went to SLidebrook and Northridge stations.  THe current Northridge still moves pretty quick but not as fast as it used to.


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## tumbler (Feb 4, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I've been skiing there my whole life, basically since 85. I know I've seen many iterations of the place I just can't remember exactly what it used to look like. I do remember when gmx seemed like the fastest lift ever and only went up to where slidebrook lets off



South base area was a shanty town of shacks and trailers pieced together that would move to different locations yearly.  There were also some yurts that showed up near the end.  The old gatehouse was in tough shape.  There was also the clock tower.  Got to give Win credit, the new base area is much nicer.  Just wish the CR Pub wasn't in the basement.  I actually miss the clock tower, it was functional.

Before the high speed quads there was a double and triple chair out of the base and Clay Brook used to be open and running between Sugar Bravo and Valley House.  Glad they did that when they did, the state would never let them culvert it now.


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

tumbler said:


> South base area was a shanty town of shacks and trailers pieced together that would move to different locations yearly.  There were also some yurts that showed up near the end.  The old gatehouse was in tough shape.  There was also the clock tower.  Got to give Win credit, the new base area is much nicer.  Just wish the CR Pub wasn't in the basement.  I actually miss the clock tower, it was functional.
> 
> Before the high speed quads there was a double and triple chair out of the base and Clay Brook used to be open and running between Sugar Bravo and Valley House.  Glad they did that when they did, the state would never let them culvert it now.



I remember when they had a ski shop in like a temporary building with wooden stairs leading up to the base lodge at LP. The was the lodge a path of snow then all the temporary ish buildings then the parking lot


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2016)

I know they still had the old lodge the first time I was there, but I really don't remember too much else about the base area and amenities itself. I do remember excellent skiing.

The first time I was there was mid-week (arrived Sunday night and left Friday). That's when I fell in love with Sugarbush. It seemed like every day we had at least a little bit of fresh snow. I took my brother there for the trip as his Christmas gift that year. The drive up that time was interesting as it was right after a pretty significant storm in the northeast. That Sunday morning we were still shoveling out in NJ and I remember watching the road reports constantly to judge when to leave. Roads were fine in NJ and NY but as soon as we crossed into VT on Rt 4 things went downhill quickly. At that time I drove Rt 4 all the way to Rutland and then took 100 north from K to SB (now I avoid Rutland and take 22A to 73 to 100). We were starving but once I got on the snow-covered VT roads I refused to stop and just wanted to get there. When we finally got to the condo at Mountainside that I had rented I was thrilled to find that Bongiornos had delivery! We skied LP the first few days. Back then Slide Brook wasn't running mid-week so we drove over to ME one of the days (probably the coldest day of the week when I don't know if temps made it out of the single digits). After that week I was obsessed with wanting to go back to Sugarbush every year. There was just something so "real" and natural about it...hard to describe. Now I'm thrilled to call the MRV my "home away from home". I love going up there and am glad that I can now make it up there as much as I do.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2016)

They just took out the old base gondola terminal this year for the new VH chair, it had various uses after the gondola was removed. Gondola ran right up Organgrinder to the true summit, had bench seating on the backside of the summit terminal that afforded views similar to the top of Mt. Ellen, great for spring festivities. There was no Ripcord back then, only Paridise on that side, no Bravo lift either. North Linx was a poma. Skied there many days before some of you were born. Shit I'm old. Skitch Henderson (anyone remember him) was a regular back then


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## Newpylong (Feb 4, 2016)

Ripcord most certainly was there while the gondola was in. Spillsville too.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> *Ripcord* most certainly was there while the gondola was in. Spillsville too.



You my friend are wrong. Not surprising.

http://www.oocities.org/sugarbushhistory/images/1979-1980.jpg


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## benski (Feb 4, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> They just took out the old base gondola terminal this year for the new VH chair, it had various uses after the gondola was removed. Gondola ran right up Organgrinder to the true summit, had bench seating on the backside of the summit terminal that afforded views similar to the top of Mt. Ellen, great for spring festivities. There was no Ripcord back then, only Paridise on that side, no Bravo lift either. North Linx was a poma. Skied there many days before some of you were born. Shit I'm old. Skitch Henderson (anyone remember him) was a regular back then



I guess this was when Murphy's was actually a glade. I was downspout a good trail back then. When Heavens Gate is not running it is awesome.


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## benski (Feb 4, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> You my friend are wrong.



https://skimap.org/data/205/7/1209851712.jpg

I found this trail map from 1983 with both the gondola and ripcord. May have only been a though year.


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## rocks860 (Feb 4, 2016)

I remember when there was still a lift that went to the top of spring fling too


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2016)

benski said:


> https://skimap.org/data/205/7/1209851712.jpg
> 
> I found this trail map from 1983 with both the gondola and ripcord. May have only been a though year.



Lol, I was 27 already in 83. Skied Sugarbush way before then. Maybe it was cut just before the gondola terminal burned but not back in the day.


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## benski (Feb 4, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Lol, I was 27 already in 83. Skied Sugarbush way before then. Maybe it was cut just before the gondola terminal burned but not back in the day.



I saw a map for 1980 without ripcord but no maps from 1981 or 1982.


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## Newpylong (Feb 5, 2016)

All those years of skiing Sugarbush "way before" everyone else can really drain your memory, and apparently politeness.  To his defense there was only 1 year of overlap Ripcord and Gondi, but it was there.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2016)

benski said:


> https://skimap.org/data/205/7/1209851712.jpg
> 
> I found this trail map from 1983 with both the gondola and ripcord. May have only been a though year.



Interesting to see an additional trail from Lower FIS that cuts over to the top of the Sunshine Double.   Hard to read the numbers, but I think it was called Way Back.  Wonder why they got rid of it.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting to see an additional trail from Lower FIS that cuts over to the top of the Sunshine Double.   Hard to read the numbers, but I think it was called Way Back.  Wonder why they got rid of it.



?    Way Back is upper mountain off Exterminator. The "trail" from Lower FIS that comes out on the bottom of Graduation/ Riemergasse is still there it's just roped off duing ski season.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting to see an additional trail from Lower FIS that cuts over to the top of the Sunshine Double.   Hard to read the numbers, but I think it was called Way Back.  Wonder why they got rid of it.



I think the one you're looking at on the map is "The Alley" and the way I'm reading the map it looks like it is the same traverse today that drops you off at the top of Snowflake at the top of the T-Bar.


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## Newpylong (Feb 5, 2016)

It's the same trail as today. Somewhere along the way they gave the traverse a name vs just Lower FIS.


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## flakeydog (Feb 5, 2016)

Also notable back then- at North, Cliffs is a blue, Rim Run a green.  We also see "Low Road" which used to be a shortcut down to the inverness lift but now that would put you right into a maintenance building near the GMVS Club bldg.  At South on the old north link poma, what is now Sunrise (listed as "this way/that way", could never keep those straight) is also a blue.

And also note the lack of snowmaking over at south.  Basically only on Spring Fling and Gate House.  Unless there was good snow, we did a most of our skiing over at North.


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## rocks860 (Feb 16, 2016)

Will sugarbush be worth skiing this weekend? I have 2 paid for tickets left for this year and I'm not sure when I'll have another chance to get up there again. It looks like they got some base building from this storm but it also looks like more rain on saturday


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## cdskier (Feb 16, 2016)

See what the snow reports for both SB and MRG say in the morning to see what the spin on this event ends up being. MRG is usually pretty honest about what happened with the weather.  And with their dependence on natural snow for almost all their terrain, what they still have open tomorrow will be very telling about the true impact of the recent weather. As for the upcoming weather, I'd wait to see the next blog post from Josh Fox to see what his take is.


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## Whitey (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm here now.   Sprung for a on mtn condo for MA school vacation week.    Ugghh,  not sure you want to hear what I've got to say.   Whoever said "they got some base building out of this storm" is on Tuna level delusions.     Yesterday was a disaster for the conditions.   Rained hard last night.  Stayed at 45 degrees until this AM.  There are areas around the condo that I skied over just yesterday afternoon that are now brown, muddy grass.    It didn't look like they ran the groomers last night.  I would guess because the snow was so soft and wet if they did the sno cats would just sink thru it.   Yesterday was OK if you could get around the fact that you were soaked.   They got about 2-4" on the mtn before it changed to ice/rain.   But the amount of rain that fell yesterday and last night caused rivers to run thru the parking lots.  

We are going to ski today because we are here and we already have tickets, but not really for any other reasons.   I'll probably end up lapping the terrain park with the kids at ME because not much else will interest the kids/be worth skiing.   50 yrs old and spending my ski vacation lapping a terrain park.   That's depressing.    

Last year when we were here at this exact same time of yr we were skiing Slide Brook and all of the glades/woods.   I hate this winter.  

I may be adding this trip to my thread about the worst weather/conditions you've ever experienced on a ski trip.


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## Edd (Feb 17, 2016)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

The Upper Wildcat trail at Wildcat is open this morning, which is a good sign. Sunday River is claiming that they don't anticipate losing any terrain. Both are acknowledging some strong rain while claiming that the initial snowfall absorbed it. Here's hoping that isn't BS.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't realize I was crashing the Sugarbush thread. Thought it was a weather thread for some reason.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 17, 2016)

No base building at Burke. They lost the couple natural snow trails that had just opened back up.  Back down to 15 man-made trails.  


.


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

Whitey said:


> I'm here now.   Sprung for a on mtn condo for MA school vacation week.    Ugghh,  not sure you want to hear what I've got to say.   Whoever said "they got some base building out of this storm" is on Tuna level delusions.     Yesterday was a disaster for the conditions.   Rained hard last night.  Stayed at 45 degrees until this AM.  There are areas around the condo that I skied over just yesterday afternoon that are now brown, muddy grass.    It didn't look like they ran the groomers last night.  I would guess because the snow was so soft and wet if they did the sno cats would just sink thru it.   Yesterday was OK if you could get around the fact that you were soaked.   They got about 2-4" on the mtn before it changed to ice/rain.   But the amount of rain that fell yesterday and last night caused rivers to run thru the parking lots.
> 
> We are going to ski today because we are here and we already have tickets, but not really for any other reasons.   I'll probably end up lapping the terrain park with the kids at ME because not much else will interest the kids/be worth skiing.   50 yrs old and spending my ski vacation lapping a terrain park.   That's depressing.
> 
> ...



That suuuuuucks. Let me know how it is today


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> That suuuuuucks. Let me know how it is today



MRG closed most of the mountain today to let it drain. SB on their report is still claiming a "net gain at higher elevations". Not sure how realistic that is given the first hand report from Whitey so far...

That said...what you can see from the webcams right now for SB is better than how things looked after the last rain storm. The Castlerock lift loading area is still white. They also haven't closed any natural trails even lower on the mountain (at least yet).


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

Yeah i saw that everything was still open and I did not that the webcam for castlerock looks muuuuuch better than the last time


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2016)

And now the trail counts have started dropping...don't know whether the trails are too icy to be skiable or whether they are too thin after the rain. I'm inclined to think icy at the moment...


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

It looks like what's closed is castlerock, paradise/ripcord and the blacks at the summit of mount ellen


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## Elevated Locals (Feb 17, 2016)

Hi guys- here's my story about Sugarbush from 1/28 & 1/29. http://www.elevatedlocals.com/east-coast/2016/1/31/kingdom-of-sweets-sugarbush Hoping winter starts...... NOW!


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## Whitey (Feb 17, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Yeah i saw that everything was still open and I did not that the webcam for castlerock looks muuuuuch better than the last time



At this point even tuna thinks you are losing it.   We're done, pulling the plug on the ski trip & heading home.   We still have a day left on our lift tix & condo.  Doesn't matter.   It's ugly.   An icy mess with washed out spots.  If want to look at webcams and think it's "OK", then don't look at these (they are from today):

This is Castle Rock:


Top of north lynx chair:


Sunrise:


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

Whitey said:


> At this point even tuna thinks you are losing it.   We're done, pulling the plug on the ski trip & heading home.   We still have a day left on our lift tix & condo.  Doesn't matter.   It's ugly.   An icy mess with washed out spots.  If want to look at webcams and think it's "OK", then don't look at these (they are from today):
> 
> This is Castle Rock:
> View attachment 19048
> ...



All I said was what it looked like from what I could say, take it easy


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 17, 2016)

People are angry because they spent a lot of money on houses and condos (myself included). My family and I made the best of it at Magic and my 3 yr old made some amazing strides while making new friends. Folks need to look on the brightside and enjoy their vacations!


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

I can understand being upset about wasting money but I was just making observations about what I could see, hence why I asked him to report back on the actual conditions


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## rocks860 (Feb 17, 2016)

That being said I may still go up as I have a ticket that expires and no other forseeable time I could go in the next month. Also have 3 magic tickets that I got before the season that don't look like they're going to get used


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 17, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I can understand being upset about wasting money but I was just making observations about what I could see, hence why I asked him to report back on the actual conditions



Don't take it personal. R@1n makes folks cranky round here!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 17, 2016)

MadMadWorld said:


> Don't take it personal. R@1n makes folks cranky round here!



Hey GFY!

Thanks


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2016)

Those pictures from Whitey aren't as bad as I would have expected. I'd also expect tomorrow to ski better than today after the groomers can get a full night of work in.

MRG at the moment plans on reopening their main mountain tomorrow fwiw...won't know the exact trail count until the morning though.


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## Not Sure (Feb 17, 2016)

So I guess this is a bad time to give away a WM film Surgarbush pass? I'm not going to make it this year.


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## Whitey (Feb 18, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I can understand being upset about wasting money but I was just making observations about what I could see, hence why I asked him to report back on the actual conditions



Missing the point.   I'm not "cranky".  I've been skiing New England for over 40 yrs.   Sh!t happens, ski trips get washed out.  
    But your post about how CR was so "muuuuch better" looking than after the last rain event was so far from the reality of what I was actually skiing/seeing that I had point that out.   

The pictures don't do justice to how bad it is.   You see white areas and think that's ski-able.   It's not, at least not at any enjoyable level.   What's not washed out is an icy mess.    It may give us a couple of days of spring like conditions if it warms up but it's really thin and won't last.    

You asked for a report on what it was like.    Sorry that I have to report that it's a Chernobyl level disaster, but that's what I saw/skied.


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## Whitey (Feb 18, 2016)

MadMadWorld said:


> People are angry because they spent a lot of money on houses and condos (myself included). My family and I made the best of it at Magic and my 3 yr old made some amazing strides while making new friends. Folks need to look on the brightside and enjoy their vacations!



Apples & oranges, my friend.   If I still had a couple of little groms in tow I would absolutely 100% be skiing all day long and having fun.   But it would be about getting the little guys going and the joy of skiing with your kids, especially when they are first learning.   When you are at that stage you are mostly skiing the greenies and it's all groomed, so it really doesn't matter if all that is available on the whole mountain is groomed stuff.   But once your kids get past that stage - they will get bored with groomed runs quick.   Icy groomed = even quicker.  

BTW - those are some pretty cute little ones you've got there.   I wouldn't go back and do it again (too many years spent on greenies), but those are wonderful times/ages to be skiing with your kids.


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## rocks860 (Feb 18, 2016)

Whitey said:


> Missing the point.   I'm not "cranky".  I've been skiing New England for over 40 yrs.   Sh!t happens, ski trips get washed out.
> But your post about how CR was so "muuuuch better" looking than after the last rain event was so far from the reality of what I was actually skiing/seeing that I had point that out.
> 
> The pictures don't do justice to how bad it is.   You see white areas and think that's ski-able.   It's not, at least not at any enjoyable level.   What's not washed out is an icy mess.    It may give us a couple of days of spring like conditions if it warms up but it's really thin and won't last.
> ...



The webcam of castlerock after the last rain event didn't even have snow, it was just bare ground. That's what I meant by much better, it wasn't a comment on skiability or anything like that.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 18, 2016)

Whitey said:


> Apples & oranges, my friend.   If I still had a couple of little groms in tow I would absolutely 100% be skiing all day long and having fun.   But it would be about getting the little guys going and the joy of skiing with your kids, especially when they are first learning.   When you are at that stage you are mostly skiing the greenies and it's all groomed, so it really doesn't matter if all that is available on the whole mountain is groomed stuff.   But once your kids get past that stage - they will get bored with groomed runs quick.   Icy groomed = even quicker.
> 
> BTW - those are some pretty cute little ones you've got there.   I wouldn't go back and do it again (too many years spent on greenies), but those are wonderful times/ages to be skiing with your kids.



I don't know about that. I've seen expert kids having fun doing laps o the Practice Slope at MRG as well as limited terrain at Magic. Kids will make the best of bad conditions if they are with their ski buddies. Teenagers are a different story though!


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## cdskier (Feb 18, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> The webcam of castlerock after the last rain event didn't even have snow, it was just bare ground. That's what I meant by much better, it wasn't a comment on skiability or anything like that.



Right...what happened a few weeks ago was much worse. This (while maybe not skiable) is at least a frozen base that will be helpful should we get natural snow now.

Last time we went from 100% open to trails being nearly completely bare. THAT was sad and a disaster. This time I do not see anywhere near that level of brown and green showing. No matter how thin/frozen it may be, it is still better than building on top of nothing at all.

I do wish Sugarbush had better webcam angles though. Sure it is nice to see the lift lines at key lifts, but I'd love to have better views of the mountain itself. MRG has a nice new webcam on their site.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 18, 2016)

That webcam at MRG is nice but it doesn't show any more terrain than the Bush's webcams.4 postions...2 looking at the those same lift lines and the lodge.


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## Smellytele (Feb 19, 2016)

So I see that the slide brook lift is closed. So you have to shuttle between LP and ME? What a pain in the ass.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 19, 2016)

I've never been to SB.  Outside - way outside - chance that the storm next week makes it worth staying an extra day and we hit it on the way home.  Mainly to hike castle rock and give it a go.  

More than likely, if we stay through monday, we'll do MRG, but who knows....


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## rocks860 (Feb 19, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> So I see that the slide brook lift is closed. So you have to shuttle between LP and ME? What a pain in the ass.



I remember the days before that lift and you had to do that all the time


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## Smellytele (Feb 19, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I remember the days before that lift and you had to do that all the time



Seems like every time I go there it isn't running


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## steamboat1 (Feb 19, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> So I see that the slide brook lift is closed. So you have to shuttle between LP and ME? What a pain in the ass.


It's not a pain in the ass


rocks860 said:


> I remember the days before that lift and you had to do that all the time


Yep



Smellytele said:


> Seems like every time I go there it isn't running


Easy enough to take off one boot & drive over.

Is this the wussie thread?


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 26, 2016)

There back, a little thin but great mid-winter day at SB.  take a look at a couple pics from today


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## BushMogulMaster (Feb 26, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Seems like every time I go there it isn't running



For Slidebrook to run, there must be sufficient snow depths under the lift for evac procedures, and temp must be, IIRC, above 5*F. I seem to recall that it was never a mid-week lift anyway, except during holiday periods. Maybe Win or ShadyJay will stumble in and correct if I misremember.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2016)

BushMogulMaster said:


> For Slidebrook to run, there must be sufficient snow depths under the lift for evac procedures, and temp must be, IIRC, above 5*F. I seem to recall that it was never a mid-week lift anyway, except during holiday periods. Maybe Win or ShadyJay will stumble in and correct if I misremember.



The past 2 or maybe 3 years they've changed to running it 7 days a week as long as the conditions you mentioned are met. This year that hasn't been much.


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> There back, a little thin but great mid-winter day at SB.  take a look at a couple pics from today
> View attachment 19248
> View attachment 19249
> View attachment 19250



Looks very nice. If it lasts I may have to get back up there once more before the end of the year. Still have one more ticket left


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## jaybird (Feb 27, 2016)

Shoulda used that ticket 2 weeks ago when Warren got pummeled.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 27, 2016)

Castlerock was nice today. Multiple trips. One good dump and we're in business.  Groomers were "firm"


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2016)

jaybird said:


> Shoulda used that ticket 2 weeks ago when Warren got pummeled.



Unfortunately I used a ticket one week ago. It wasn't terrible but definitely didn't look like that


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## yeggous (Feb 27, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Unfortunately I used a ticket one week ago. It wasn't terrible but definitely didn't look like that



I noticed that the snow report lists the Castlerock and Slide Brook chairs as closed. True story? Makes me much less motivated to go.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## steamboat1 (Feb 27, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I noticed that the snow report lists the Castlerock and Slide Brook chairs as closed. True story? Makes me much less motivated to go.


Castle rock trails are open with hike to access only. Someone on the previous page of this thread said it was nice today.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I noticed that the snow report lists the Castlerock and Slide Brook chairs as closed. True story? Makes me much less motivated to go.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



true.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 28, 2016)

I don't know about you all but if I'm paying for a lift ticket I don't have time to spend hiking over to Castlerock... unless I'm bored at the end of the day and I really want to do Rumble

especially when you can skate along the Long Trail and find better stuff between Paradise and Church for way less effort.

As far as I'm concerned if the chair is closed they should say the trails are closed and stop boasting a trail count that isn't realistic for most people.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2016)

Definitely agree with that.  Chairs not open = trails not open


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## thetrailboss (Feb 28, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I don't know about you all but if I'm paying for a lift ticket I don't have time to spend hiking over to Castlerock... unless I'm bored at the end of the day and I really want to do Rumble
> 
> especially when you can skate along the Long Trail and find better stuff between Paradise and Church for way less effort.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned if the chair is closed they should say the trails are closed and stop boasting a trail count that isn't realistic for most people.



Agree. I was always skeptical of that practice


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## benski (Feb 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree. I was always skeptical of that practice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Would rather them be closed? Probably results in the moguls being shaped better since it limits access to only hard core skiers who are better than the people who would make moguls if the lift was open.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 28, 2016)

Wouldn't rather them be closed. It's a slow double chair, Castlerock doesn't have issues with too much skier traffic. The rate that the chair brings people up the hill is pretty self limiting.

That said I also don't think more skiers always = worse bumps. In a season like this it probably means big bumps vs. small bumps on Castlerock.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2016)

benski said:


> Would rather them be closed? Probably results in the moguls being shaped better since it limits access to only hard core skiers who are better than the people who would make moguls if the lift was open.



If I were a Sugarbush skier, I'd want the lift spinning if they want to open the trails. 

I guess I'm not "hardcore" because I have no desire to hike for turns when there's a lift right there. Even if it means the moguls would be better. (Debatable)  My message to management would be, "run the lift and look for other options to save costs."

If it were like Outpost at Pico with literally a five minute walk and practically fully served by an adjacent lift, I'd feel a bit differently. It's not. It's a 1500 vertical pod with some of the premier expert terrain on the hill.  Run the lift.


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Wouldn't rather them be closed. It's a slow double chair, Castlerock doesn't have issues with too much skier traffic. The rate that the chair brings people up the hill is pretty self limiting.



The chair can bring a LOT more people up vs allowing hiking only access. I have no issues with the practice of allowing hiking access when the cover simply wouldn't support the number of people that the chair would bring up. Being "open" provides people that are interested an official option to ski that area. It also means patrol deems it skiable. I've never taken advantage of the hiking option myself, but would certainly be interested in doing so one day if I was with a group willing to do it.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If I were a Sugarbush skier, I'd want the lift spinning if they want to open the trails.
> 
> I guess I'm not "hardcore" because I have no desire to hike for turns when there's a lift right there. Even if it means the moguls would be better. (Debatable)  My message to management would be, "run the lift and look for other options to save costs."
> 
> If it were like Outpost at Pico with literally a five minute walk and practically fully served by an adjacent lift, I'd feel a bit differently. It's not. It's a 1500 vertical pod with some of the premier expert terrain on the hill.  Run the lift.



They are not looking to save money, they are looking to save the snow.  and the snow was great.
Pic below is of Castlerock run.  If you don't want to hike it great, more snow for me.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2016)

If it's for snow preservation, I guess I can understand that.  I was unaware that was the motivation


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 28, 2016)

If they want to preserve snow on Lift line for the Ski the East competition or whatever, close that trail and let the snow sit there.

Closing the other 3 trails on Castlerock is just making people hike unnecessarily. It's a lift accessed mountain and it's "prime season". No legitimate excuse to close the whole mountain.

Why does Middle Earth need "snow preservation" while Paradise does just fine with a quad running to the top? Doesn't make sense. Just an excuse not to run a rickety old lift that's probably on it's last legs.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If it's for snow preservation, I guess I can understand that.  I was unaware that was the motivation



all about snow preservation.  Paradise was skied bare from traffic, but castlerock still had plenty of powder at close yesterday.  I hiked it twice yesterday.  Putting aside the issue of whether it's legitimate to call the trails "open", I and pretty much everyone I know want those trails open, lift or no lift.  And I'd prefer no lift, to having the lift run and have it skied off by midday.  It's an easy hike.  15 minutes.  My wife has even done it, so it doesn't have anything to do with being hardcore.

fwiw-skied paradise woods today.  Surprisingly good.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> If they want to preserve snow on Lift line for the Ski the East competition or whatever, close that trail and let the snow sit there.
> 
> Closing the other 3 trails on Castlerock is just making people hike unnecessarily. It's a lift accessed mountain and it's "prime season". No legitimate excuse to close the whole mountain.
> 
> Why does Middle Earth need "snow preservation" while Paradise does just fine with a quad running to the top? Doesn't make sense. Just an excuse not to run a rickety old lift that's probably on it's last legs.



First of all, paradise has a triple feeding it, not a quad, and having skied it today, I can tell you it was skied bare from the traffic.  
and, no offense, but you don't what your talking about.  The castlerock double is relatively new, having been installed in 2001.


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## djd66 (Feb 28, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> If they want to preserve snow on Lift line for the Ski the East competition or whatever, close that trail and let the snow sit there.
> 
> Closing the other 3 trails on Castlerock is just making people hike unnecessarily. It's a lift accessed mountain and it's "prime season". No legitimate excuse to close the whole mountain.
> 
> Why does Middle Earth need "snow preservation" while Paradise does just fine with a quad running to the top? Doesn't make sense. Just an excuse not to run a rickety old lift that's probably on it's last legs.



Dude - have you ever even skied Castlerock?  Based on you comments,... I would have to say no.  FYI - the Caslerock Double is the second newest chair at SB.  Personally, I have no issue with them opening CR for hiking only.  It did not have enough snow to support traffic of people riding lift - but enough snow for hiking only.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

djd66 said:


> Dude - have you ever even skied Castlerock?  Based on you comments,... I would have to say no.  FYI - the Caslerock Double is the second newest chair at SB.  Personally, I have no issue with them opening CR for hiking only.  It did not have enough snow to support traffic of people riding lift - but enough snow for hiking only.



If you think about it, the lift takes about 10 minutes to ride up, plus some time waiting in line, so the hike really is no big deal time wise.  I. Know some guys who hiked 5 times yesterday.  It's a good workout and the snow was worth the effort.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2016)

You can make that hike from the base of the chair in only five minutes longer than it takes to ride the lift?   That's impressive. It's almost a mile in length.  15 minutes is a brisk paced mile while walking on pavement in street shoes.  Average person does that in about 20 minutes.

Up a steep snowy hill, in ski boots with skis on my back, I would figure closer to 30 minutes


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## mrvpilgrim (Feb 28, 2016)

coverage up there is variable and thin for the most part.  There is a huge difference between 50 to 100 skiers hiking it in a day vs 50 to 100 people an hour on the trails  if the chair were running. I venture a guess that one day with the lift running and the terrain would have to be shut down all together until more snow arrives.   Hiking only the trails are still patrolled and swept at the end of the day


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> You can make that hike from the base of the chair in only five minutes longer than it takes to ride the lift?   That's impressive. It's almost a mile in length.  15 minutes is a brisk paced mile while walking on pavement in street shoes.  Average person does that in about 20 minutes.
> 
> Up a steep snowy hill, in ski boots with skis on my back, I would figure closer to 30 minutes



What do you mean from the base of the chair? You take the Heaven's Gate triple to the top of Lincoln Peak, then start down Paradise and cut off onto the Long Trail and basically hike alone the ridge over to CR. Sure the Long Trail has both some downhill and uphill sections and isn't flat...but you're not really hiking up a steep snowy hill.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2016)

Well, a casual Sugarbush skier like myself who only makes it there every other year or so wouldn't know that route.  Probably got 20 days in there in my lifetime.  I'm sure others with similar experience at the area also assume you all are hoofing it up from the base of the chair


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2016)

Sometimes they actually put the details in the snow report. For example this is what they had listed in the report this morning: "The Castlerock area is open for hiking access from 9:00 AM - 3:00 PM via the upper part of Paradise and the Long Trail."

And then sometimes they don't. The report currently on their site for tomorrow simply says "The Castlerock area is open for hiking access from 9:00 AM - 3:00 PM."

I did also see on one of the message boards by either the Super Bravo or Gate House lift yesterday that they said something like "CR open for hiking via Long Trail".


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## teleo (Feb 28, 2016)

Another sb regular who loves that they do the hiking only.  When they do it, there is little snow, so if they ran the chair it would be trashed in half a day.  Bonus that they kept it til sat this week for us working stiffs.  Was the best snow on sat.

They know what they are doing for a group of regulars. I've thanked Win for doing it that way.  I could care about the trail #s and understand why some would be upset.

It's really not that much of a hike. Or ski in, hike, ski, hike, ski out to be exact.  Heck my friends daughter who is like 8 did it with us.  Dad carried her skis, but she did the hike.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> You can make that hike from the base of the chair in only five minutes longer than it takes to ride the lift?   That's impressive. It's almost a mile in length.  15 minutes is a brisk paced mile while walking on pavement in street shoes.  Average person does that in about 20 minutes.
> 
> Up a steep snowy hill, in ski boots with skis on my back, I would figure closer to 30 minutes



ha ha.  Nooooo.  I'd be dead hiking up.  It's a hop skip and a jump across from the top of paradise.  Like I said, my wife has done it.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, a casual Sugarbush skier like myself who only makes it there every other year or so wouldn't know that route.  Probably got 20 days in there in my lifetime.  I'm sure others with similar experience at the area also assume you all are hoofing it up from the base of the chair



True.


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## rocks860 (Feb 28, 2016)

Lots of people complaining about stuff they know nothing about. I've never done it personally but I also haven't heard anyone there actually complaining about it either


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 28, 2016)

its a really easy hike and is totally worth it and as many have stated, saves snow on the castlerock trails and leaves the snow that is there for those willing to do a really easy 15 minute ridge hike.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 28, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> all about snow preservation.  Paradise was skied bare from traffic, but castlerock still had plenty of powder at close yesterday.  I hiked it twice yesterday.  Putting aside the issue of whether it's legitimate to call the trails "open", I and pretty much everyone I know want those trails open, lift or no lift.  And I'd prefer no lift, to having the lift run and have it skied off by midday.  It's an easy hike.  15 minutes.  My wife has even done it, so it doesn't have anything to do with being hardcore.
> 
> fwiw-skied paradise woods today.  Surprisingly good.



Castlerock trails are open and have snow which is more that you can say for about 80% of the other currently "open" natural snow trails.


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Castlerock trails are open and have snow which is more that you can say for about 80% of the other currently "open" natural snow trails.



Hah...they sure are very liberal with their trail opening policy. Upper Lookin Good did not look so good at ME on Saturday! :wink:

Walt's and Semi-Tough had surprisingly good coverage though (other than the ice flows in a few spots on Semi-Tough)


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 29, 2016)

djd66 said:


> Dude - have you ever even skied Castlerock?  Based on you comments,... I would have to say no.  FYI - the Caslerock Double is the second newest chair at SB.  Personally, I have no issue with them opening CR for hiking only.  It did not have enough snow to support traffic of people riding lift - but enough snow for hiking only.



I'm not a lift nerd, I figured it was old because it's slow as hell to load. As for Castlerock, most of the time I ski Rumble and leave the area to avoid waiting 20 minutes for a lift. I've only skied the other runs a handful of times.

I figured it was a longer than 20 minute ridge hike. I find that a little hard to believe, but if that's all it really is then I'll stop complaining.

Castlerock is nice terrain but it's not like it's the best skiing in the Mad River Valley. And Sugarbush is pretty good at opening trails when other mountains would leave them closed, and the woods are never roped off, so it works out.

As for me, I'll never make that "20 minute hike" because there's too many good lines along the ridge to drop in to. Why hike to Castlerock when you can ski steeper woods and chutes on the way?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 29, 2016)

agreed that the bravo and exterminator woods and paradise are better than anything at castle rock but castle rock has its charm for sure. and a salute to the sugarbush patrol for their liberal policies. I always want the option to choose for myself if I want to ski something sketch, and they always give that choice to the skier


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 29, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I always want the option to choose for myself if I want to ski something sketch, and they always give that choice to the skier



Couldn't agree more.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 29, 2016)

Well look at that, pigs do fly


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## HowieT2 (Feb 29, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm not a lift nerd, I figured it was old because it's slow as hell to load. As for Castlerock, most of the time I ski Rumble and leave the area to avoid waiting 20 minutes for a lift. I've only skied the other runs a handful of times.
> 
> I figured it was a longer than 20 minute ridge hike. I find that a little hard to believe, but if that's all it really is then I'll stop complaining.
> 
> ...


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## cdskier (Feb 29, 2016)

I don't like the look of things on the webcams at the moment. Sugarbush says they had "lots of rain" in the snow report this morning. I think much of that "net gain" from the last storm may have just been undone...


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 29, 2016)

At least it's only Monday. Things can happen before the weekend.


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 29, 2016)

I think Sugarbush's decision to pull the plug on snowmaking earlier than most other resorts will come back to haunt them.


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## cdskier (Feb 29, 2016)

They feel confident that they've built up enough base on the key spring trails. Time will tell... They also had a cooler blow on the pump as they were shutting down the system the last day of scheduled snowmaking so they can't make snow right now anyway.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 29, 2016)

cdskier said:


> They feel confident that they've built up enough base on the key spring trails. Time will tell... They also had a cooler blow on the pump as they were shutting down the system the last day of scheduled snowmaking so they can't make snow right now anyway.


I'm sure if the cooler blew earlier in the season it would be repaired pretty quickly.


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## canobie#1 (Mar 5, 2016)

Saw a nasty accident on the Super Bravo lift today.  Skier was down on birdland and tons of people around helping.  We passed above and it seemed like he was fully covered in tarp, kinda like a body bag.  Does anyone have anymore information on this?  

Overall fun day at the Bush tho.


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## benski (Mar 5, 2016)

canobie#1 said:


> Saw a nasty accident on the Super Bravo lift today.  Skier was down on birdland and tons of people around helping.  We passed above and it seemed like he was fully covered in tarp, kinda like a body bag.  Does anyone have anymore information on this?
> 
> Overall fun day at the Bush tho.



Was he in a sled? They use tarps kinda like a shell when they are bringing people down in sleds.


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## smac75 (Mar 5, 2016)

I saw the blood in the snow after accident cleared. Hoping he/she is ok!


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## cdskier (Mar 6, 2016)

I heard someone on the lift at one point mention seeing someone hurt earlier...but that's as much as I heard. Didn't see anything myself. Hope they are ok.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If I were a Sugarbush skier, I'd want the lift spinning if they want to open the trails.
> 
> I guess I'm not "hardcore" because I have no desire to hike for turns when there's a lift right there.





HowieT2 said:


> all about snow preservation.  Paradise was skied bare from traffic, but castlerock still had plenty of powder at close yesterday.  I hiked it twice yesterday.  Putting aside the issue of whether it's legitimate to call the trails "open", I and pretty much everyone I know want those trails open, lift or no lift.  And I'd prefer no lift, to having the lift run and have it skied off by midday.  It's an easy hike.  15 minutes.



Just to revisit this topic, I made the hike this weekend (3 times - twice Saturday and once Sunday). I can now fully say I support this practice. Very cool experience. It is a good workout too but very enjoyable. Great views along the hike too. The cover was surprisingly good after the weather this week. It seems the "4 inches" of snow they received mid-week was of the heavier variety and really covered things up nicely. While the bumps were firm, they were still fun and in better shape than any of the natural snow trails on the main mountain. It was also nice to be able to get away from the crowds.

Here are a few pics:


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

Bad news:  http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This sucks.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2016)

Yea...I mentioned that in the recent Stowe thread after someone mentioned Comman Man there.

Honestly I'm not too broken up by it. I may be in the minority here, but Comman Man has failed to impress me with the current owners. Don't get me wrong, the food is good and I like the ambiance and service, I just expect more creativity from a chef with Adam's credentials and I just didn't see that whenever I ate there. Seems like he's alluding to that as well in the article about why he wants to do a smaller scale place.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Yea...I mentioned that in the recent Stowe thread after someone mentioned Comman Man there.
> 
> Honestly I'm not too broken up by it. I may be in the minority here, but Comman Man has failed to impress me with the current owners. Don't get me wrong, the food is good and I like the ambiance and service, I just expect more creativity from a chef with Adam's credentials and I just didn't see that whenever I ate there. Seems like he's alluding to that as well in the article about why he wants to do a smaller scale place.




Totally agree and know others who feel the same way.  The food was good, but the menu was boring and it was overpriced.  I was there twice this season and each time settled for a dish I really wasnt that thrilled to get and certainly not for the price.  That being said, my wife and daughter loved the place.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

I just think it is a bummer because another eatery is closing down in the MRV.  That said, someone will hopefully fill the void.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I just think it is a bummer because another eatery is closing down in the MRV.  That said, someone will hopefully fill the void.



they come and go.  For me, Mad River Barn is filling the void now. what the common man aspired to be, but cheaper.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Just to revisit this topic, I made the hike this weekend (3 times - twice Saturday and once Sunday). I can now fully say I support this practice. Very cool experience. It is a good workout too but very enjoyable. Great views along the hike too. The cover was surprisingly good after the weather this week. It seems the "4 inches" of snow they received mid-week was of the heavier variety and really covered things up nicely. While the bumps were firm, they were still fun and in better shape than any of the natural snow trails on the main mountain. It was also nice to be able to get away from the crowds.
> 
> Here are a few pics:
> View attachment 19448
> ...



your first and second pics are near the entrance to the church, a nice cliffy drop in to some excellent tree skiing between heavens gate and castle rock. you should check it out in a better snow year. sugarbush classic.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> your first and second pics are near the entrance to the church, a nice cliffy drop in to some excellent tree skiing between heavens gate and castle rock. you should check it out in a better snow year. sugarbush classic.



Yea, I was hiking up there this summer and figured out that that was the famous church. Still not sure I could get up the nerve to actually ski that even with good snow. Maybe seeing it with good snow would change my mind.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> they come and go.  For me, Mad River Barn is filling the void now. what the common man aspired to be, but cheaper.



Peasant is still my go to place. Mad river barn is very good too though and seems to be doing quite well whenever I've been there.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Yea, I was hiking up there this summer and figured out that that was the famous church. Still not sure I could get up the nerve to actually ski that even with good snow. Maybe seeing it with good snow would change my mind.



Sure you could.  Not off the cliff, but going around skiers left.  Need snow though.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Peasant is still my go to place. Mad river barn is very good too though and seems to be doing quite well whenever I've been there.



Big fan of peasant but it's different kind of restaurant.  Not going in there for wings or a burger and beer.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2016)

I figured there was a way skiers left. Maybe one day.  And definitely agree peasant isn't a burger wing beer type place, but neither was common man :grin:


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I just think it is a bummer because another eatery is closing down in the MRV.  That said, someone will hopefully fill the void.



I agree with this sentiment.  I live in NJ but ski the MRV as much as possible which usually translates to a 2-4 weekends per season.  I find the vibe in the MRV to be special even within VT (I love the whole state).   I think it's important that a small biz can sustain itself long term in the MRV.


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## rocks860 (Mar 12, 2016)

Went to peasant for the first time when we were there in January, it was delicious and very cool little spot. Shame about the common man, I've been going there since I was a kid. Hopefully someone takes it over, such an awesome space for a restaurant


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## shadyjay (Mar 12, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That said, someone will hopefully fill the void.



I know... we really could use a pizza place!  

;-);-);-):smash:;-);-)

It is sad that the Common Man is closing... it's been around since I made my first MRV trek back around 1991/92, though I've never been there - not my style.


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## rocks860 (Mar 12, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> I know... we really could use a pizza place!
> 
> ;-);-);-):smash:;-);-)
> 
> It is sad that the Common Man is closing... it's been around since I made my first MRV trek back around 1991/92, though I've never been there - not my style.



Haha what style is that?


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I figured there was a way skiers left. Maybe one day.  And definitely agree peasant isn't a burger wing beer type place, but neither was common man :grin:



If my memory is correct skiers left involves a mandatory about 5 foot drop. Going over the top of the church is way over my head. I would definitely crash the landing and it's not worth the possible injuries. Going around it over the smaller drop isn't bad though and totally worth it.


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> I agree with this sentiment.  I live in NJ but ski the MRV as much as possible which usually translates to a 2-4 weekends per season.  I find the vibe in the MRV to be special even within VT (I love the whole state).   I think it's important that a small biz can sustain itself long term in the MRV.



Just to mention...from what the owners of Common Man are saying, they aren't closing due to the business not being able to sustain itself. They simply want to do something else as Common Man is too big for them and too much like what they've done before.

I do personally hope someone else buys Common Man though so it remains open under new owners. It is a great building and a great location that has a great reputation and can surely be successful.


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## shadyjay (Mar 14, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Haha what style is that?



My style is more like comfort/pub food, vs a sit-down pay-way-too-much-for-too-little place.  I prefer places like the Barn, Smokehouse, or that little place across from the Common Man


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> or that little place across from the Common Man



Slidebrook is one place I actually haven't been to this year. They do make excellent burgers though!


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> My style is more like comfort/pub food, vs a sit-down pay-way-too-much-for-too-little place.  I prefer places like the Barn, Smokehouse, or that little place across from the Common Man



I've actually never been to the smokehouse. We don't make a habit of going to pay way too much places but maybe like once a year we go to common man (this year it was peasant in the winter but we went to common man in the summer).


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 17, 2016)

Going to SB tomorrow anyone know if Roxbury Gap Road is passable?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2016)

Haven't driven that route since January, but it was open and fine in January, when there was actually some snow around. My guess is that it's fine


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2016)

Roxbury gap is closed. Mud season started early this year...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2016)

Well, I stand corrected


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2016)

Moretown gap road is currently closed as well. Check Sugarbush's snow report for info as they've been posting road closure updates there too.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 17, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Moretown gap road is currently closed as well. Check Sugarbush's snow report for info as they've been posting road closure updates there too.



Went last week and Roxbury gap road was closed so I took moretown gap road and it was open, It shouldn't have been.  Looks like exit 3 this week.


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 19, 2016)

When all is said and done, exit 9, although not the most exciting and probably the longer feel of all the routes is the most reliable. 30 years up and back I've done them all.  Need to pick your route and watch weather and seasonal conditions.  Just sayin.......


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## djd66 (Mar 19, 2016)

During mud season,... I like exit 9.  Exit 3 is most likely to make the wife and kids car sick.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 19, 2016)

I come up from killington on 100 so it's not an issue for me, but what I don't get is that the alternate routes are only maybe 5 minutes longer, so why even risk Roxbury gap in mud season.


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 19, 2016)

Exactly!

Sometimes if the weather cooperates it's nice to break up the highway drive, but in the end, it doesn't really matter.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 19, 2016)

Only time I drive I-89 is if I'm going directly to Sugarbush, MRG or Stowe from home which isn't often. Always got off at Rt. 100B (is that exit 9?) & drove south to Rt. 100 to Sugarbush or MRG. Of course for Stowe I'd get off at Waterbury.

Our ski house in VT. is about 8 miles north of Rutland on Rt. 7. When driving to the MRV from there I usually go over Brandon Gap (Rt. 73) & pick up Rt. 100 north in Rochester. Occasionally I'll drive over the Appalachian Gap (Rt. 17) for a change of pace.


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2016)

I always take exit or if I'm in the mood for a scenic drive just take 91 to 30 in Brattleboro then hook up with 100 in ludlow ( or take 91 further up to 103). Never taken the gap, had some friends who did a few years ago and they ended up getting there 45 minutes later then me because it was a nightmare. They said it was barely a road when they went, they didn't know any better it was just where Google told them to go.


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2016)

Anyone skied there recently? I was thinkin of maybe going next Saturday and using this voucher I have. That would likely be the only time I could get out for the rest of the year


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 19, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Anyone skied there recently? I was thinkin of maybe going next Saturday and using this voucher I have. That would likely be the only time I could get out for the rest of the year



Skied today.  Lincoln peak was a lot of fun.  Mt. Ellen isn't worth the shuttle ride over.


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Skied today.  Lincoln peak was a lot of fun.  Mt. Ellen isn't worth the shuttle ride over.



Yeah I was thinkin of just hitting up Lincoln peak. I went up last month and hit up mt Ellen cause LP was packed, it was ok but wish I had stayed at LP. It doesn't look like it's supposed to be too warm this week, Saturday could be ok


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## shadyjay (Mar 20, 2016)

The weather over the past couple of days has its pros and cons.  It's not softening up too much (a little in the base), but what we've got isn't going anywhere.  It's better than 50s and rain/fog.  Bravo/HG/VH side of Lincoln Peak is pretty solid.  Good depth on some of those trails.  Mt Ellen's got one more week before it closes.  A few good cruisers over there but limited options compared to Lincoln.  Plus with the primary route to base being down, it's a slight uphill to get past Slide Brook.  

Regarding which route to take... I favor 100S->103S when I'm heading down to visit family in CT.  The way back, my route is 91->89->Exit 3->107W->100N.  The 100->103 route is nice heading down and I get to avoid all of 89 and a good chunk of 91.  Heading back north, the Exit 3->107->100 route is the most direct and is in pretty good shape year-round.


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## Scruffy (Mar 20, 2016)

I was up there this weekend. Not the spring skiing we usually look forward to this time of year, but I was happy to be out there anyways.


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## rocks860 (Mar 20, 2016)

I think I'm gonna head up next Saturday for my last day of the year


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 20, 2016)

Skied their this weekend, was a lot of fun.
I know this was a low snow year but has Sugarbush ever thought of blowing a ton of snow on the entrance and exit of Heaven's Gate Traverse, from Lower Organgrinder and Downspout and then spreading it out on the traverse.  It would open up so many more trails to get to Heaven's Gate without having to take Downspout.   I realize they can't do it now but is it something they have considered before.


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## benski (Mar 20, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Skied their this weekend, was a lot of fun.
> I know this was a low snow year but has Sugarbush ever thought of blowing a ton of snow on the entrance and exit of Heaven's Gate Traverse, from Lower Organgrinder and Downspout and then spreading it out on the traverse.  It would open up so many more trails to get to Heaven's Gate without having to take Downspout.   I realize they can't do it now but is it something they have considered before.



Heavens gate traverse does not take a lot of snow to open. Its open almost as much as lower Organ grinder. They do that on Overshot, at the bottom of waterfall.


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## rocks860 (Mar 20, 2016)

God I hate downspout


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## HowieT2 (Mar 20, 2016)

I don't think gatehouse makes it to next weekend.  Getting thin and sketchy at the bottom.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 20, 2016)

If they can continue moving snow around, they will get another weekend out of it.  Probably move the snow from beginner area over to gatehouse bottom.


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## shadyjay (Mar 21, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Skied their this weekend, was a lot of fun.
> I know this was a low snow year but has Sugarbush ever thought of blowing a ton of snow on the entrance and exit of Heaven's Gate Traverse, from Lower Organgrinder and Downspout and then spreading it out on the traverse.  It would open up so many more trails to get to Heaven's Gate without having to take Downspout.   I realize they can't do it now but is it something they have considered before.



Oh yes, we've done it before, and did it a little this year.  It is a long trail and you can only stretch so many hoses onto a gun.  We do the same on Overshot as previously mentioned, Castlerock Connection (from Downspout), Pushover Chute, and on Second Thoughts.  Over on Mt Ellen, we do it sometimes on the Bravo headwall coming from Elbow and this year it was done on Brambles, as GMVS likes to train there as well.  

But back to the traverse, usually it is one of those first natural snow trails to open and holds the snow pretty well.  I do recall making piles at either end this year, but they were pushed out to save the traverse earlier in the month or to fill in Downspout/Lower OG.  This was definitely not your typical winter.


Also, anyone up this week looking for a ticket deal, Mt Ellen tickets are $30 all this week.  Mt Ellen's last day is Easter Sunday, March 27 while Lincoln Peak will continue going through April.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 21, 2016)

I went up on the lift this weekend with Henri.  I've met him a couple of times before but we got to talking about the ski season and I asked him if this has been the worst season he could remember(I forgot he's been skiing here for over 50 years) he sold no.  He continued to tell me he remembers before snowmaking, one season in particular that they barely had enough snow to put a ski Jump together for Stien Eriksen.  But when they did boy was he fun to watch.
So I guess the season could have been worse but you can still have fun with what you got.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Only time I drive I-89 is if I'm going directly to Sugarbush, MRG or Stowe from home which isn't often. Always got off at Rt. 100B (is that exit 9?) & drove south to Rt. 100 to Sugarbush or MRG. Of course for Stowe I'd get off at Waterbury.
> 
> Our ski house in VT. is about 8 miles north of Rutland on Rt. 7. When driving to the MRV from there I usually go over Brandon Gap (Rt. 73) & pick up Rt. 100 north in Rochester. Occasionally I'll drive over the Appalachian Gap (Rt. 17) for a change of pace.



My route from NJ is I-87 (Thruway to Northway) to Rt 149 in Queensbury to Rt 4 to 22A in VT to 73 across the Brandon gap to 100. Coming from the western side of the green mountains, I like the Brandon gap the best and to me it seems faster than going through the Rutland area anyway.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't think gatehouse makes it to next weekend.  Getting thin and sketchy at the bottom.



I think there's still some they can push around a bit as long as it stays somewhat cool this week to help preserve it. If it gets warm though, then I agree that it may not make it to next weekend. The Sleeper runout is even thinner than Lower Hotshot and could go soon too. I also don't understand how "In Road" and "Out Road" are technically still listed as open on the trail report. At best snow extends maybe a couple feet onto those trails beyond the edge of Easy Rider. If you can't ski across those wooden bridges, the trails shouldn't be considered "open".

The rest of the mountain looks in decent shape though. Stein's is deep (and frozen solid...only run this weekend that I didn't enjoy). Spring Fling is decently deep, but I worry a bit about Snowball's depth. Downspout seems good. Organgrinder seems deeper than Ripcord and rarely grooming OG is probably helping preserve it as well. Lower Ripcord in particular could be one of the upper mountain trails to worry about.

Anyone ski ME this weekend? I'm curious how the cover is from the base of the North Ridge chair up. I kind of want to head over there this coming Saturday for one final day there this season. Not a lot of choices of trails, but I'd still like to do it anyway as long as what is open has cover.


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## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I think there's still some they can push around a bit as long as it stays somewhat cool this week to help preserve it. If it gets warm though, then I agree that it may not make it to next weekend. The Sleeper runout is even thinner than Lower Hotshot and could go soon too. I also don't understand how "In Road" and "Out Road" are technically still listed as open on the trail report. At best snow extends maybe a couple feet onto those trails beyond the edge of Easy Rider. If you can't ski across those wooden bridges, the trails shouldn't be considered "open".
> 
> The rest of the mountain looks in decent shape though. Stein's is deep (and frozen solid...only run this weekend that I didn't enjoy). Spring Fling is decently deep, but I worry a bit about Snowball's depth. Downspout seems good. Organgrinder seems deeper than Ripcord and rarely grooming OG is probably helping preserve it as well. Lower Ripcord in particular could be one of the upper mountain trails to worry about.
> 
> Anyone ski ME this weekend? I'm curious how the cover is from the base of the North Ridge chair up. I kind of want to head over there this coming Saturday for one final day there this season. Not a lot of choices of trails, but I'd still like to do it anyway as long as what is open has cover.



I skied mount Ellen last month and the coverage was pretty thin so I can only imagine what it's like now


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## WWF-VT (Mar 22, 2016)

I skied at Mt Ellen on Saturday and Sunday.  I basically lapped the Summit chair - Rimrun, Elbow, Looking Good  all still have decent cover.   If it warms up this weekend Elbow will be fun.  FIS was icy as hell as it never warmed up.  Cruiser is getting thin ( skiers right ) , Northstar is OK.  I just didn't want to deal with the sketchy ice getting to the North Ridge chair. 

 They have pushed around snow to get you down Crackerjack to get you back to the base lodge or the GMX chair. Inverness trail is all that's left off that chair and it was ungroomed crap on Saturday and slightly better on Sunday when they actually ran the groomers all the way up the trail.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2016)

Thanks WWF. I'm ok with lapping the Summit chair. Would be nice if it warms up so FIS is skiable. Now my problem is the weather forecast for later this week. My usual Easter weekend plan is to drive up Thursday night after work and then go home Saturday afternoon so I'm home for family stuff on Sunday. The weather Thursday night may make me have to change that plan. Do I just forget about skiing on Friday and just drive up on Friday instead to ski Saturday for a few hours? I guess I'll have to see how the forecast unfolds as the week goes on...


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## Whitey (Mar 22, 2016)

Have to give some props to SB's customer svc people.    After my MA school vacation week ski vacation disaster (several pages back in this thread) with weather and conditions - we pulled the plug early on the trip.    Not only did SB refund me some of the rental on the condo but just last week I also got a bunch of vouchers good for lift tickets good thru next season to make up for the ski tix we paid for but didn't use because of the weather and conditions.  

I had to ask for them but they did make good on it.    SB could have easily just said "we can't control the weather" and told me to kick rocks.    But instead, in a season where they are probably gonna lose some $, they still took care of one of their loyal customers.  

Not just because I have vouchers, but because SB has always shown me they care about their customers - they have guaranteed that I will make the effort to go to SB over my other options in the future.   

Makes you wonder how many other mountains would do the same?    Makes you wonder how many other mtns realize how much good will and returning business this kind of stuff generates?


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## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2016)

Whitey said:


> Have to give some props to SB's customer svc people.    After my MA school vacation week ski vacation disaster (several pages back in this thread) with weather and conditions - we pulled the plug early on the trip.    Not only did SB refund me some of the rental on the condo but just last week I also got a bunch of vouchers good for lift tickets good thru next season to make up for the ski tix we paid for but didn't use because of the weather and conditions.
> 
> I had to ask for them but they did make good on it.    SB could have easily just said "we can't control the weather" and told me to kick rocks.    But instead, in a season where they are probably gonna lose some $, they still took care of one of their loyal customers.
> 
> ...



When I hurt my shoulder they gave me a voucher too, I was very surprised. I didn't get seen at the clinic by ski patrol until around noon but they gave me a voucher for a full ticket. The ski patroller also sent me a card a few weeks later basically saying hope you're feeling better. Top notch customer service


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## yeggous (Mar 22, 2016)

Does anyone know about Stein's Challenge? Is this basically a watered down version of the Wildcat Vertical Challenge, except not for charity? Does the registration fee include a lift ticket?


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2016)

Good questions. Was the Wildcat Vertical Challenge on a bump run? In theory Stein's will (or should) be bumped up by then unless they plan on grooming right before the event. When they first announced the event I took it to be a spring bump endurance type of race. There's a 4 hour time limit and it is just ski as many runs in that time as you can on Stein's with various prizes being awarded. With an approximately 8 minute ride on the Valley House chair, I'd say 5 runs per hour is probably about the max. At 5 runs per hour you're looking at just under 25K vertical in 4 hours.

No idea about the lift ticket question...


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## steamboat1 (Mar 22, 2016)

Whitey said:


> Have to give some props to SB's customer svc people.Makes you wonder how many other mtns realize how much good will and returning business this kind of stuff generates?





rocks860 said:


> Top notch customer service


I've had a couple of negative experiences with Sugarbush customer service. Don't want to get into specifics. I still go there once in awhile because of their location near our ski house but they definitely lost some business from me because of it.


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## shadyjay (Mar 22, 2016)

I worked at Mt Ellen today.  Coverage from North Ridge, up is pretty descent on open terrain.  Rim Run, Panorama, Elbow, and Lookin' Good are pretty much covered edge-to-edge, though there is one bare spot on Rim Run just below top of NRE.  FIS is also still well covered.  Good coverage on Northstar, Lower Northstar, and Cruiser.  Mainstream which cuts across Northstar/Cruiser/Which Way is ice and bare, so best bets are to stick with Lower Northstar and Lower Cruiser.  Once you pass beneath the NRE liftline, the groomed route bears to the left, closer to the North Ridge Express corral, and then goes "uphill" to get to Crackerjack by Slide Brook lift.  Crackerjack had descent coverage.  Over on the park side, Riemergasse and Sugar Run are still descent.  The cutover from halfway down Sugar Run over to GMX is very thin.  Over on the "I-pod", Inverness and NRExpy are both open, and occasionally groomed.  Northway is also open but haven't taken it in a while - haven't had to, thank god.  

If things soften up this weekend, it should be a lot of fun over there.  No idea if FIS will be groomed.  My suggestion would be to not go below Times Square until you have to (to go to base lodge, bar, etc), and just jump on North Ridge Express.  I'm not sure if Glen House will have food service this weekend - I'm sure they will.  $30 lift tickets over there all week.


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## Plusbrians (Mar 23, 2016)

Heading up there tomorrow to ski Thurs/Fri - and finally use up my Warren ticket - first time there, any recommendations on where to stay for the night and grab a bite for dinner? Will be with my 7yo son...


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## rocks860 (Mar 23, 2016)

I've stayed at the sugar lodge, but only during the summer. Nice enough place but I have no idea what the prices are in the winter. The restaurant at the movie theater has some good food (and a bar)


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## shadyjay (Mar 23, 2016)

Plusbrians said:


> Heading up there tomorrow to ski Thurs/Fri - and finally use up my Warren ticket - first time there, any recommendations on where to stay for the night and grab a bite for dinner? Will be with my 7yo son...



Doesn't the Golden Lion at the base of the access road do an Alpine Zone discount?  For dinner, I'd hit up the Mad River Barn or the Hyde Away.  Pizza at Blue Stone is pretty good.  

Conditions were pretty good today.  We missed out on the snow but there's some coming tonight I believe, though there may be some ice and other funk mixed in.  Lincoln Peak was skiing really nice.  Even Downspout was fun!  Nice and soft.  Don't know about Stein's - some people were doing it but I didn't get a chance to talk to them.  The double-black Ripcord is getting a grooming job tonight so that could be good in the AM.  Good coverage on most trails on the Bravo side.  Gate House is getting thinner and thinner though Sleeper was fun today and Birch looked good as well.  If you want to hit up Mt Ellen, tickets there are $30 through Sunday (see my previous post about conditions there).


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> Doesn't the Golden Lion at the base of the access road do an Alpine Zone discount?  For dinner, I'd hit up the Mad River Barn or the Hyde Away.  Pizza at Blue Stone is pretty good.



Not sure if Golden Lion still does. They have a new owner now. He did renovate and upgrade all the rooms though which is nice. The new owner actually is neighbors with one of my co-workers at work here in NJ.

For dinner I like Shady's suggestion of either Mad River Barn or Hyde Away for a place to go on a Thursday night with a 7yo. I'd also potentially add American Flatbread to the list.


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## rocks860 (Mar 23, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Not sure if Golden Lion still does. They have a new owner now. He did renovate and upgrade all the rooms though which is nice. The new owner actually is neighbors with one of my co-workers at work here in NJ.
> 
> For dinner I like Shady's suggestion of either Mad River Barn or Hyde Away for a place to go on a Thursday night with a 7yo. I'd also potentially add American Flatbread to the list.



Not sure what nights American flatbread is open. For some reason I thought it was only weekends but maybe they changed it


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## HowieT2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Plusbrians said:


> Heading up there tomorrow to ski Thurs/Fri - and finally use up my Warren ticket - first time there, any recommendations on where to stay for the night and grab a bite for dinner? Will be with my 7yo son...



Take your son to American flatbread, definitely.  But they may only be open Friday night.  Not sure.  Also recommend mad taco, Hyde away or mad river barn.


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2016)

American Flatbread is usually open Thursday-Sunday (this weekend they are closed Sunday for Easter). Thursday nights they are usually pretty empty too, so you don't need to worry about going early to put your name on the list.


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## smac75 (Mar 23, 2016)

Plusbrians said:


> Heading up there tomorrow to ski Thurs/Fri - and finally use up my Warren ticket - first time there, any recommendations on where to stay for the night and grab a bite for dinner? Will be with my 7yo son...



The Whitehorse for accommodations - hands down. We have 11 weekends in there so far this season. No place up there comes close to their breakfasts, prices and policies.  Cancel last minute? - no fees.....one night only? sure, no problem. Thank me later ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2016)

smac75 said:


> The Whitehorse for accommodations - hands down. We have 11 weekends in there so far this season. No place up there comes close to their breakfasts, prices and policies.  Cancel last minute? - no fees.....one night only? sure, no problem. Thank me later ;-)



Always looked like a cool place...


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## rocks860 (Mar 23, 2016)

We tried staying at the white horse last summer. Made our reservation then got a call a couple days later saying the whole place was booked for a wedding. Ended up staying at the sugar lodge again


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## catsup948 (Mar 23, 2016)

Whitey said:


> Have to give some props to SB's customer svc people.    After my MA school vacation week ski vacation disaster (several pages back in this thread) with weather and conditions - we pulled the plug early on the trip.    Not only did SB refund me some of the rental on the condo but just last week I also got a bunch of vouchers good for lift tickets good thru next season to make up for the ski tix we paid for but didn't use because of the weather and conditions.
> 
> I had to ask for them but they did make good on it.    SB could have easily just said "we can't control the weather" and told me to kick rocks.    But instead, in a season where they are probably gonna lose some $, they still took care of one of their loyal customers.
> 
> ...



Several years back after skiing from first chair to about 1pm we got stuck on the Northridge Express for 40 minutes.  They had to unload us slowly and we ended up being stuck on the lift for about an hour total. We had already decided we were almost done so we skied to the base of Mount Ellen anyway. When we got to the lodge we were all handed a voucher good through the end of the following season and a free beer!  Bar was of course packed with people.  Turns out the entire Mad River Valley was without power.  So they really didn't have to give us anything.  Pretty awesome though.


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## Plusbrians (Mar 24, 2016)

All booked at the White Horse,  one of the less expensive too, which is always nice.  Great reviews on Google too... heading up now, praying it stays snow!  Think exit 3 is ok today?


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2016)

Freezing rain warning tonight through tomorrow morning means I'm bailing on going up this weekend. Not worth the risk since I have to leave Saturday afternoon anyway...


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## Newpylong (Mar 24, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> Several years back after skiing from first chair to about 1pm we got stuck on the Northridge Express for 40 minutes.  They had to unload us slowly and we ended up being stuck on the lift for about an hour total. We had already decided we were almost done so we skied to the base of Mount Ellen anyway. When we got to the lodge we were all handed a voucher good through the end of the following season and a free beer!  Bar was of course packed with people.  Turns out the entire Mad River Valley was without power.  So they really didn't have to give us anything.  Pretty awesome though.



Back when I was at GMVS we got stuck on Northridge for about the same amount of time. We were somewhere up top above Bravo and we all jumped eventually. We found out later that those that waited got a free breakfast. Darn...

I miss Sugarbush greatly.


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## rocks860 (Mar 24, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Freezing rain warning tonight through tomorrow morning means I'm bailing on going up this weekend. Not worth the risk since I have to leave Saturday afternoon anyway...



I'm gonna go up Saturday since I already have a voucher. Hopefully the rain/freezing rain won't be too bad and it looks like it's going to warm up on Saturday


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> I'm gonna go up Saturday since I already have a voucher. Hopefully the rain/freezing rain won't be too bad and it looks like it's going to warm up on Saturday



Yea...Saturday should be a nice day with warm temps and sun. Just doesn't make sense for me to drive up to ski only Saturday morning. It should be a beautiful spring day though and I wish I could be up there. If it wasn't for Easter on Sunday and having family stuff to do I'd be up there.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2016)

The word of the day is corn


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm so jealous of not being there to ski above the clouds first thing this morning...the pics I saw from ski patrol this morning looked amazing!


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I'm so jealous of not being there to ski above the clouds first thing this morning...the pics I saw from ski patrol this morning looked amazing!


Here's one I took around 1045 or so. All in all a very fun day. I got there around 10 and the stuff below the clouds was pretty sketchy so I was kinda worried but once the clouds lifted everything softened up big time. Run of the day was probably jester 2nd run of the day. Super nice corn snow up top and no real ice to speak of. By later in the day it softened up wayyyy too much and was a mess. Ripcord was pretty nice up top early but the bottom was super icy as it was below the clouds. Later the bottom softened somewhat but the top got skied off. Snowball was also pretty nice. Took one run up north Lynx and down birch to sleeper and man is it a mess over a there, don't think it will last too much longer


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2016)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 27, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> Doesn't the Golden Lion at the base of the access road do an Alpine Zone discount?  For dinner, I'd hit up the Mad River Barn or the Hyde Away.  Pizza at Blue Stone is pretty good.
> 
> Conditions were pretty good today.  We missed out on the snow but there's some coming tonight I believe, though there may be some ice and other funk mixed in.  Lincoln Peak was skiing really nice.  Even Downspout was fun!  Nice and soft.  Don't know about Stein's - some people were doing it but I didn't get a chance to talk to them.  The double-black Ripcord is getting a grooming job tonight so that could be good in the AM.  Good coverage on most trails on the Bravo side.  Gate House is getting thinner and thinner though Sleeper was fun today and Birch looked good as well.  If you want to hit up Mt Ellen, tickets there are $30 through Sunday (see my previous post about conditions there).



spent last week up there for the kid's school vaca...all things considered, it was pretty sweet and major props to shadyjay and his crew for the conditions

my son had a week's worth of lessons with vermont adaptive, which went really well...he went from being tethered with a heavy metal edgie-wedgie/ski-bra device to untethered with a rubber worm tip-connector...one morning his instructor was a guy who was totally deaf...i participated as a sort of translator and it went great...they are an incredible organization and do such a great job and we appreciate the accommodation that the resort provides to them as well.

i tried to get all over as much as possible...did ellen monday, which was exactly as described...nice up top, sketchy down low, and not the best for beginner-type lessons, so we switched over to south for tuesday, which was much nicer...to the extent that it holds up, gatehouse stuff like sleeper chutes was a lot of fun, and i thought ripcord and organgrinder both were holding up really well...birch run was is great shape too...thin and slushy spots existed down low though...the little snow on thursday helped it look nicer anyway

ate at the barn for the first time and really enjoyed it...would recommend

couple scenic shots from the top of heavens gate


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## rocks860 (Mar 27, 2016)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



spring_mountain_high said:


> spent last week up there for the kid's school vaca...all things considered, it was pretty sweet and major props to shadyjay and his crew for the conditions
> 
> my son had a week's worth of lessons with vermont adaptive, which went really well...he went from being tethered with a heavy metal edgie-wedgie/ski-bra device to untethered with a rubber worm tip-connector...one morning his instructor was a guy who was totally deaf...i participated as a sort of translator and it went great...they are an incredible organization and do such a great job and we appreciate the accommodation that the resort provides to them as well.
> 
> ...



Yesterday pretty much everything on the gatehouse/north Lynx was total slush. There was a tiny strip of snow at the bottom of the hill on hotshot where the green merges in and bare ground all around. Don't see that side lasting much longer. Very nice pics!

Here's another one from yesterday I found


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## steamboat1 (Mar 27, 2016)

rocks860 said:


> Yesterday pretty much everything on the gatehouse/north Lynx was total slush. There was a tiny strip of snow at the bottom of the hill on hotshot where the green merges in and bare ground all around. Don't see that side lasting much longer



Today is the last day for Gate House & North Lynx. Mt. Ellen as well but Ellen will be open for hiking.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Today is the last day for Gate House & North Lynx. Mt. Ellen as well but Ellen will be open for hiking.



The fact that ME still has enough snow to hike after today and was still T2B on closing day goes to show how brutal the melt-down in 2011-2012 was.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 27, 2016)

cdskier said:


> The fact that ME still has enough snow to hike after today and was still T2B on closing day goes to show how brutal the melt-down in 2011-2012 was.



Think I went to Utah that April because VT. was washed out. Utah definitely wasn't anywhere near washed out although Alta closed my last day there. Utah or Summit County might be in the cards again next month.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Today is the last day for Gate House & North Lynx. Mt. Ellen as well but Ellen will be open for hiking.



Skied today, lots of Fun with the Family.  I was skiing down Skiers left on Spring Fling today and couldn't help but notice how deep the base is.  I know this is the normal closing weekend for Ellen, but I am surprised they are going to try to keep the North Lynx open longer.  When skiing over there today, the only problems you see are the runouts on Sleeper and Lower Hot Shot.  Still tons of snow on Hot Shot and most of Waterfall.  Birch Run is still very wide and and pretty deep.  Why aren't they just move some of the snow around and keep them open for Pond Skimming Weekend?  Birch seems much deeper than Jester or Organgrinder.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Birch seems much deeper than Jester or Organgrinder.



I find that somewhat hard to believe. Birch was much thinner than OG last weekend. Birch may look like it has good cover, but it will go quickly with the exposure (and lower elevation compared to OG). And if they can't maintain the lower GH area runout trails then it doesn't matter anyway how much snow Birch has.


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## mr magoo (Mar 30, 2016)

Is SKIMRV lost and gone forever?
It was a nice resource for local knowledge.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 30, 2016)

mr magoo said:


> Is SKIMRV lost and gone forever?
> It was a nice resource for local knowledge.



http://forums.skimrv.com/


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## steamboat1 (Mar 30, 2016)

mr magoo said:


> Is SKIMRV lost and gone forever?
> It was a nice resource for local knowledge.





MEtoVTSkier said:


> http://forums.skimrv.com/


http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/137958-MRV-Forum


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/137958-MRV-Forum



The site itself seems fine to me once you tell your browser to ignore the warning...no idea why it got flagged. I suspect maybe at one point an ad was on the site that maybe slipped through and had a virus and that caused the entire site to be flagged. Only thing I can really think of. I'm on there everyday and never had an issue.


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## mr magoo (Mar 30, 2016)

I get it now. I can be patient. Its nice to know how muddy the Roxbury gap is.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2016)

The skimrv site has been blocked for me at work by our proxy servers for at least a year or longer now. The vendor they use for web filtering has it categorized as "Suspicious". I could submit a request to have it recategorized, but I don't really have a valid business justification for needing to access the site from work so I just visit on my iPhone at work if I want to check in from there.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 30, 2016)

So we all just went thru the worst ski season ever but of course we won't have the distinction of saying that.  Sugarbush is going to break the all-time worst snowfall season on record.


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## shadyjay (Mar 30, 2016)

cdskier said:


> The site itself seems fine to me once you tell your browser to ignore the warning...no idea why it got flagged. I suspect maybe at one point an ad was on the site that maybe slipped through and had a virus and that caused the entire site to be flagged. Only thing I can really think of. I'm on there everyday and never had an issue.



Both Microsoft Edge and IE running on Windows 10 on my computer show no security warnings.  Google Chrome (which I use most often) gives me the "Deceptive Site Ahead" warning, which pops up twice.


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## mr magoo (Mar 31, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> So we all just went thru the worst ski season ever but of course we won't have the distinction of saying that.  Sugarbush is going to break the all-time worst snowfall season on record.



Man up. Store your stuff properly. Enjoy the next season and double down on skiing when it is time. There is no crying in skiing!


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> So we all just went thru the worst ski season ever but of course we won't have the distinction of saying that.  Sugarbush is going to break the all-time worst snowfall season on record.



With the snow showers in the forecast Saturday night through Monday I think they stand a good chance of not setting a new record low. Apparently they only need 2 more inches to avoid setting that record (which was previously set in 79/80).

While many are considering this the worst season ever (I'm still on the fence personally), it is still definitely going to last longer than 2011/2012. That year did have a solid period of around a month or so of good skiing mid-season before the massive March meltdown though.


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## slatham (Mar 31, 2016)

My recollection from 11/12 was that there was "average" skiing at Christmas, good skiing over MLK and Presidents, and a legit dump in early March where Magic for instance was 100% open (vs never having ANY natural terrain officially open this year). While it was a quick and early death, I think the overall quality of skiing far surpassed this season. But my reference point is So VT, not the "Bush.

Regarding snowfall in 79/80 - was that also measured at the Summit? Not sure its true apples to apples. For a more accurate comparison, look at the Mt Mansfield snow stake, where 79/80 was in the 48-52" range in late March vs 35" as of today's Stowe report. And 79/80 also had more snow in the second half of December vs this years 0-4". 

Either way abysmal year!


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

I actually have the number of open trails and snow totals in a spreadsheet and graph on my home computer for both 2011/2012 and this season. Was interesting to see the similarities at many points in the season. I don't recall the specifics on Christmas, MLK, and Presidents though. I do think Presidents fell in the good skiing category that season, but not sure about the other 2. Was also interesting that SB had to close for several days after their opening day in 2011 due to warm weather. At least this year once they opened they were able to stay open.

And yes this year there is a huge difference in how "good" the season was between Sugarbush and points north vs K and points south. N VT at least got some snow and was able to get a decent amount of natural terrain open for some periods. S VT suffered with many natural trails never opening at all.

I would hope since SB is the one providing the comparison to the 79/80 snowfall record that they are comparing summit snowfall totals in both cases. The Mansfield snow stake would give a better indicator of how much snow stuck around, but not necessarily how much fell.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 31, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I actually have the number of open trails and snow totals in a spreadsheet and graph on my home computer for both 2011/2012 and this season. Was interesting to see the similarities at many points in the season. I don't recall the specifics on Christmas, MLK, and Presidents though. I do think Presidents fell in the good skiing category that season, but not sure about the other 2. Was also interesting that SB had to close for several days after their opening day in 2011 due to warm weather. At least this year once they opened they were able to stay open.
> 
> And yes this year there is a huge difference in how "good" the season was between Sugarbush and points north vs K and points south. N VT at least got some snow and was able to get a decent amount of natural terrain open for some periods. S VT suffered with many natural trails never opening at all.
> 
> I would hope since SB is the one providing the comparison to the 79/80 snowfall record that they are comparing summit snowfall totals in both cases. The Mansfield snow stake would give a better indicator of how much snow stuck around, but not necessarily how much fell.



Sugarbush really pushed it this year with inflating the number of "open" trails that were often sheets of ice, rocks and dirt and not worth skiing.  ( I get a kick out of how Wayback at Mt Ellen ways always open regardless of the fact that it is a connecting trail you couldn't get to because Exterminator was closed)  Don't confuse quantity with quality as the vast majority of natural snow trails sucked this season.


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## rocks860 (Mar 31, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Sugarbush really pushed it this year with inflating the number of "open" trails that were often sheets of ice, rocks and dirt and not worth skiing.  ( I get a kick out of how Wayback at Mt Ellen ways always open regardless of the fact that it is a connecting trail you couldn't get to because Exterminator was closed)  Don't confuse quantity with quality as the vast majority of natural snow trails sucked this season.



I skied a couple trails at castlerock in January and was surprised at how good they were. Better than many times I've skied them before


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I get a kick out of how Wayback at Mt Ellen ways always open regardless of the fact that it is a connecting trail you couldn't get to because Exterminator was closed



That bothered me a lot about seeing Wayback still open even when Ext was closed...then I finally looked back at a map and think I figured out why they listed it as "open" (partially open would have been more accurate). On the map it appears that Wayback technically extends across Lower Elbow all the way back to the Glen House. I think that's highly questionable to mark it that way though as you'd probably never ski straight from Ext over to the Glen House...you'd have to essentially be going back uphill to do that.

My general comment about "good" in relation to this season was very relative to NVT vs SVT. I agree there were many trails that were highly questionable this year at some times when they were open. That said there were also many times I thought a lot of the natural snow trails skied very well. I had some great runs at Castlerock when I hiked over. Also had some very good runs on Lower FIS, Semi-Tough, and Walts and even a few good runs on Domino, Moonshine and Twist.


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## rocks860 (Mar 31, 2016)

Ah yeah I forgot about lower FIS. That skied great when I was there in January


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## WWF-VT (Mar 31, 2016)

cdskier said:


> My general comment about "good" in relation to this season was very relative to NVT vs SVT. I agree there were many trails that were highly questionable this year at some times when they were open. That said there were also many times I thought a lot of the natural snow trails skied very well. I had some great runs at Castlerock when I hiked over. Also had some very good runs on Lower FIS, Semi-Tough, and Walts and even a few good runs on Domino, Moonshine and Twist.



I skied most of those trails and the days when they were worth skiing was very limited compared to past years.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 31, 2016)

IMHO-this season is in its own league as the worst.  '11-'12 wasnt nearly this bad.  It may have ended earlier, but there was at least some decent skiing along the way.  This season just never got started.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 31, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> IMHO-this season is in its own league as the worst.  '11-'12 wasnt nearly this bad.  It may have ended earlier, but there was at least some decent skiing along the way.  This season just never got started.



just checked my youtube archive.  attached is a video from skiing slidebrook with about 8" fresh on 2/24 and that was followed by like 18-24" on 2/26.  that season was leaps and bounds better than this.

https://youtu.be/5PhwGVfjlic


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## HowieT2 (Mar 31, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I skied most of those trails and the days when they were worth skiing was very limited compared to past years.



agreed


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I skied most of those trails and the days when they were worth skiing was very limited compared to past years.



Absolutely agree. Like I said, it is all relative. Compared to SVT, I'll take what we had at SB. I was (and still am) hoping we really don't get anymore snow (unless it yields a substantial powder day) just so we can officially set the record on lowest snowfall total for SB.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> just checked my youtube archive.  attached is a video from skiing slidebrook with about 8" fresh on 2/24 and that was followed by like 18-24" on 2/26.  that season was leaps and bounds better than this.
> 
> https://youtu.be/5PhwGVfjlic



A big problem for me in 2011-2012 was I picked all the wrong weekends to ski SB. I just checked my gps app on my iPhone and I wasn't at SB the dates above. I learned a lot that year about not trying to plan ahead on when to go. Ever since that year I've planned to go up to SB almost every weekend and it has worked out much better where I've now caught plenty of times where forecasts were wrong or we ended up getting "surprise" snow that you just had to be there for to catch.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2016)

Really? They often stay open until May.  I'm still hoping for as much snow as possible in Northern New England.  Don't really care about records.


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## rocks860 (Mar 31, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> just checked my youtube archive.  attached is a video from skiing slidebrook with about 8" fresh on 2/24 and that was followed by like 18-24" on 2/26.  that season was leaps and bounds better than this.
> 
> https://youtu.be/5PhwGVfjlic



I went up the week starting on st Patrick's day that year and I remember that it snowed a ton the week or two before I was there and then was 60 degrees that whole week, miserable


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Really? They often stay open until May.  I'm still hoping for as much snow as possible in Northern New England.  Don't really care about records.



Anything short of an enormous dump will have pretty much no bearing on how long they are open. Being open until May hinges on how long the man-made snow that they built up on Stein's lasts.

Edit: If you were inferring that you'd simply like more snow so more trails reopen not so that they stay open longer, it would need a substantial amount of snow on the bottom part of the mountain to accomplish that. Most areas of the mountain are shut down for the season and wouldn't reopen no matter how much snow falls. Maybe they would open hiking to CR, but I don't even see them running that lift at this point. I don't think they'd reopen the Gate House/North Lynx areas either.


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## mikec142 (Mar 31, 2016)

Regarding SB customer service, two years ago on President's Day weekend, I hired an instructor for our family of four for the morning.  Not only was he not a good technical instructor, he really had trouble reading my wife and kids and it made for an expensive, bad day.  I'm one who typically chalks those things up to "you take the bad with the good", but my wife suggested that I say something to the people at the ski school.  I ended up speaking to Russ Kauff (who I think is the ski school director).  When I told Russ about our morning he was appalled and promised to make it right.  That afternoon, my kids got lessons (on the house) from not one, but two very cool and fun instructors who work with the ski team there.  It turned what would have been an expensive, bad day into a really great day.  It should be noted, that Russ never tried to rationalize our bad experience or explain it away.  He immediately said, "give me ten minutes to see what I can do to make things right for you" and then he proceeded to come through in a big way.  He's clearly a guy who gets that little things go a long way to creating long lasting customer relationships.  We've been back many times since and bring friends too.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Anything short of an enormous dump will have pretty much no bearing on how long they are open. Being open until May hinges on how long the man-made snow that they built up on Stein's lasts.
> 
> Edit: If you were inferring that you'd simply like more snow so more trails reopen not so that they stay open longer, it would need a substantial amount of snow on the bottom part of the mountain to accomplish that. Most areas of the mountain are shut down for the season and wouldn't reopen no matter how much snow falls. Maybe they would open hiking to CR, but I don't even see them running that lift at this point. I don't think they'd reopen the Gate House/North Lynx areas either.



I'm inferring I want as much snow as possible until the ski areas close.  Even if it's down to just Steins (or Lynx in the case of where I ski) Id  want it to snow.  

Not about reopening terrain, it's about having what's open ski great.  There are such things as late April powder days; sometimes big ones.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Not about reopening terrain, it's about having what's open ski great.  There are such things as late April powder days



Case in point, April 24th last year  


That said though, I also do enjoy having some real "spring" skiing with warm, sunny days in April. Those can also be "great" without any new snow falling. Last year (and maybe even the last 2 years) we didn't really get much of that true spring skiing experience that I remember. Even just looking quickly back through my pictures I see a ton of pictures in April with many people still wearing winter jackets.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2016)

I enjoy that too, but if we had a traditional warm ski in shorts spring, it would all end quickly.  I don't want insult added to injury by having an abrupt ending.


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## cdskier (Apr 6, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Does anyone know about Stein's Challenge? Is this basically a watered down version of the Wildcat Vertical Challenge, except not for charity? Does the registration fee include a lift ticket?





cdskier said:


> Good questions. Was the Wildcat Vertical Challenge on a bump run? In theory Stein's will (or should) be bumped up by then unless they plan on grooming right before the event. When they first announced the event I took it to be a spring bump endurance type of race. There's a 4 hour time limit and it is just ski as many runs in that time as you can on Stein's with various prizes being awarded. With an approximately 8 minute ride on the Valley House chair, I'd say 5 runs per hour is probably about the max. At 5 runs per hour you're looking at just under 25K vertical in 4 hours.



It will be interesting to see how this event plays out this weekend. I don't think conditions will be ideal for the way the event was envisioned. You're either going to have a groomed Stein's that won't bump up much with temps around 30 on Saturday or you'll have some very firm smaller bumps if they don't groom it. This past weekend Stein's wasn't even open (looked pretty firm from the lift so I'm guessing that was the reason...but the bumps also didn't look deep at all yet)


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## smac75 (Apr 6, 2016)

cdskier said:


> It will be interesting to see how this event plays out this weekend. I don't think conditions will be ideal for the way the event was envisioned. You're either going to have a groomed Stein's that won't bump up much with temps around 30 on Saturday or you'll have some very firm smaller bumps if they don't groom it. This past weekend Stein's wasn't even open (looked pretty firm from the lift so I'm guessing that was the reason...but the bumps also didn't look deep at all yet)



They rescheduled it to next weekend. Guessing to give it time to soften.


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## cdskier (Apr 6, 2016)

smac75 said:


> They rescheduled it to next weekend. Guessing to give it time to soften.



Makes sense. That must have been a very recent decision. When I looked at the snow report this morning the event was still listed on the featured events section for the 9th. I see they also dropped the registration fee to $20. Wonder if they are giving refunds to people already registered. No idea how many people actually had signed up. Hope there weren't too many people that planned specifically for this event that aren't SB regulars that now could have scheduling conflicts.


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## 180 (Apr 6, 2016)

Now that it doesn't conflict with BMMC (on Highline), we can go


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 8, 2016)

Anyone now how the conditions were end of day today at Sugarbush.  Just looking at MRG's webcam 11:15 pm and it looks like they picked up a lot of snow tonight.  wondering if it's worth while to day trip it or not to SB.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 8, 2016)

2 inches of fluffy snow here at the base of Mt Ellen and it stopped snowing at 11:30 PM.  Maybe more snow up higher.


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## cdskier (Apr 8, 2016)

Can't tell for sure whether the snow stake cam updates at night. If so, then looks like only 2-3 at the summit. Nice 2" here at the base of LP. Seems like the snow is stopping but I thought that earlier tonight as well and then a little while later it was snowing again. Was coming down pretty good before when I was driving back from dinner at mad river barn to the LP base area.


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## teleo (Apr 8, 2016)

Can confirm close to 2 at lp base and stopped snowing for now.   

Nothing like rochester gap and Granville gulf in the snow for the full winter experience. * Most snow I've driven in all season:-( *Glad I keep the snows on.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 14, 2016)

This is a random question, but does anyone have TMobile?  I'm thinking of switching providers and wanted to know if there's even a data connection at the Bush or (actually more helpful) in the valley? What has been your experience? (I have Verizon now and it's good on the mountain and selectively bad in the valley, especially around the Elusive Moose).


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2016)

Does T-Mobile roam on AT&T's network at all? AT&T has good coverage in the valley for the most part. Of course there are still some spots that have poor coverage. No matter what they are all better than they were 10+ years ago when I first visited. Back then with Verizon I had to stand on the roof of my car to get a signal by the Mountainside condos...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 14, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Does T-Mobile roam on AT&T's network at all? AT&T has good coverage in the valley for the most part. Of course there are still some spots that have poor coverage. No matter what they are all better than they were 10+ years ago when I first visited. Back then with Verizon I had to stand on the roof of my car to get a signal by the Mountainside condos...



Yeah I wonder about that, the TMobile map says "partner coverage" and I've heard that it's AT&T, but I doubt you would get access to AT&T's LTE coverage.


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## xlr8r (Apr 14, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Does T-Mobile roam on AT&T's network at all? AT&T has good coverage in the valley for the most part. Of course there are still some spots that have poor coverage. No matter what they are all better than they were 10+ years ago when I first visited. Back then with Verizon I had to stand on the roof of my car to get a signal by the Mountainside condos...



I have T mobile and it usually roams onto AT&T when I go skiing in Vermont, though they only give you a few MBs of roaming free per month.  To use lots of data you need to purchase extra data roaming.  I have not been to Sugarbush since I switched to them so I cannot comment on the MRV coverage.


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## Sons of Thunder (Apr 15, 2016)

Thinking of hitting the Bush midweek at the end of April. Checking the webcam today conditions look pretty good. Next week is going to be critical with the high temps...any word on when they plan to switch to weekends only?


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## MommaBear (Apr 15, 2016)

Sons of Thunder said:


> Thinking of hitting the Bush midweek at the end of April. Checking the webcam today conditions look pretty good. Next week is going to be critical with the high temps...any word on when they plan to switch to weekends only?


 
From their email two days ago:
We're still open for skiing and riding on 19 trails, including favorites like Stein's and Spring Fling, and with the forecast through Sunday looking bluebird with increasing spring-like temperatures daily, the remainder of this week and weekend are days not to miss. Sugarbush will remain open daily through April 24th, and if conditions permit we hope to re-open the weekend of April 30th and May 1st.


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## Sons of Thunder (Apr 15, 2016)

MommaBear said:


> From their email two days ago:
> We're still open for skiing and riding on 19 trails, including favorites like Stein's and Spring Fling, and with the forecast through Sunday looking bluebird with increasing spring-like temperatures daily, the remainder of this week and weekend are days not to miss. Sugarbush will remain open daily through April 24th, and if conditions permit we hope to re-open the weekend of April 30th and May 1st.



Damn I knew next week would be the death sentence for midweek opening. I got their email from the owner a week or so ago about volatility but didn't get the one you're mentioning. Website makes no mention of the shift in schedule either, looking at the snow report. Thanks for sharing the info as I can plan accordingly now!


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2016)

The last full weekend before May is typically when they end daily operations. Then they reopen for a "bonus" weekend the week after that as long as conditions allow. They should mention this on the website though so everyone knows.


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## shadyjay (Apr 19, 2016)

T'was a great weekend, blue skies and warm temps.  However, those warm temps are really starting to impact the trails on the mtn.  Murphy's was closed yesterday and Jester was done as of today.  So that leaves just expert only terrain off Heaven's Gate, with Ripcord and OG.  Bravo still going.  I believe the plan is to keep spinning Bravo and HG as long as there's a way out from the bottom of HG.  Downspout still has great coverage but its getting thin on the runout below CR Connection.  When the runout does go, it'll be down to just the Valley House Quad.  Still great coverage on Steins.  Snowball and Fling are holding on as well.  Lower SB got whacked hard by the warmth but its still passable.  

If I had to guess, if we make it to April 30/May 1, which we probably will, look for Steins->Coffee Run and Snowball->Spring Fling.  

No weekday operation next week.  After Sunday at 5pm, the plan is to close and hopefully reopen Sat the 30th and Sun the 1st.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2016)

Thanks Shady for all the hard work from yourself and the rest of the mountain ops teams this season! This weekend was definitely great and the Stein's challenge was a lot of fun. Stein's seems quite deep for sure still. I'm personally done for the season, but based on what I saw this weekend I think SB has a good chance of making it until May with at least Stein's and possibly Spring Fling as well (Snowball is my only real question mark with getting to Spring Fling).

Some pics from Saturday:


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## nhskier1969 (May 9, 2016)

Sugarbush improvements this year?
Anyone hear anything thing.  I mentioned on the other site that they should consider putting snowmaking in on Heaven Gate Traverse.  What happened this year was tough on Downspout(aka Death spout).  I know that the winter was tough with marginal snowmaking conditions but if they have snowmaking on the Traverse, they could have easily blew snow on birland to lower jester to Heaven Gate Traverse. This would have put you at the bottom of the triple.  This would have elevated a lot of headaches.  I know they don't have endless dollars especially coming off a winter like we just did.  But if they had to do only one thing this off season, I think this investment would be the most wisely spent.


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## cdskier (May 9, 2016)

While I wouldn't mind seeing some snowmaking added to HG Traverse...I don't know how much benefit there would be. I think even with snowmaking on HG Traverse most people would still keep skiing Downspout. As is, HG Traverse is open most of the winter and really doesn't seem to get much traffic. The trail also could possibly be too narrow for snowmaking...


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## tumbler (May 10, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Sugarbush improvements this year?
> Anyone hear anything thing.  I mentioned on the other site that they should consider putting snowmaking in on Heaven Gate Traverse.  What happened this year was tough on Downspout(aka Death spout).  I know that the winter was tough with marginal snowmaking conditions but if they have snowmaking on the Traverse, they could have easily blew snow on birland to lower jester to Heaven Gate Traverse. This would have put you at the bottom of the triple.  This would have elevated a lot of headaches.  I know they don't have endless dollars especially coming off a winter like we just did.  But if they had to do only one thing this off season, I think this investment would be the most wisely spent.



You must be new to Sugarbush.  Downspout is what it is, always will be.  High traffic and in the shade.  Yes, snowmaking might help on HG traverse but since it is flat it doesn't take much natural to open it and they are agressive with their trail openings.  Plus I don't want a pipe t odeal with coming out or going into the woods on it.  The only other option is cutting a trail from bottom of OG to Lower Ripcord but that would proabbly also be an icy mess.  You have to deal with it early season but ususlly not for long.  It's a rite of passage.


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## WWF-VT (May 10, 2016)

tumbler said:


> You must be new to Sugarbush.  Downspout is what it is, always will be.  High traffic and in the shade.  Yes, snowmaking might help on HG traverse but since it is flat it doesn't take much natural to open it and they are agressive with their trail openings.  Plus I don't want a pipe t odeal with coming out or going into the woods on it.  The only other option is cutting a trail from bottom of OG to Lower Ripcord but that would proabbly also be an icy mess.  You have to deal with it early season but ususlly not for long.  It's a rite of passage.



+1


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## cdskier (May 10, 2016)

All of this discussion about Downspout will quickly disappear with some cold temps that allow them to make snow on other lower mountain trails to spread people out...

Without that I tend to agree DS will always be what it is in the early season and there is just not much that can be done. I think any money spent trying to "fix" this problem would be pretty much a waste and can be put to better use elsewhere. Right now the only thing I think I would like to see is just continue to upgrade snow-making pipes throughout the resort and buy some more guns so the snow-makers don't need to move equipment around quite as much. I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of, but nothing is jumping to my mind.


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## slatham (May 10, 2016)

In the fantasy land of the Master Plan I have from circa 2012, they have a trail coming down parallel to DS, at skiers left, starting from Organgrinder (about a hundred yards or so uphill from the intersection of OG and DS) and merging into Lower Ripcord around the last drop before HG triple.

AND a trail between DS and Domino that heads more to skiers left than Domino and thus ends at DS right at HG Triple.

Assuming adequate early season snowmaking that would take serious pressure off of DS, not to mention offer more options off HG all season.

Some other good stuff on that plan too but as I said, Fantasy Land.

Also, regarding this off season, from Win:

"We will have fewer big projects this summer, but the cash we receive from our season pass sales will be put to good use enabling our team to perform the necessary summer maintenance to prepare us for next winter."

So don't expect major changes this off season, but that should be obvious to all who experienced this past "winter".

But to cheer you up, also from Win:

Low Total Year     	Following Year
'73/'74 186"	307"
'79/'80 138"	257"
'91/'92 197"	300"
'94/'95 181"	363"
'09/'10 194"	308"
'11/'12 162"	279"


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## HowieT2 (May 10, 2016)

slatham said:


> In the fantasy land of the Master Plan I have from circa 2012, they have a trail coming down parallel to DS, at skiers left, starting from Organgrinder (about a hundred yards or so uphill from the intersection of OG and DS) and merging into Lower Ripcord around the last drop before HG triple.
> 
> AND a trail between DS and Domino that heads more to skiers left than Domino and thus ends at DS right at HG Triple.
> 
> ...



F that.  both of those areas are nice runs through the woods
maybe they declare them official "woods" trails, but I doubt they cut real trails through there.


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## sugarbushskier (May 10, 2016)

How about a very slight re-grade of HGT, enough to keep folks moving but not a lot of expense? Might solve the issue.  Early season is tough, but sometimes the simplest is the best.


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## cdskier (May 10, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> F that.  both of those areas are nice runs through the woods
> maybe they declare them official "woods" trails, but I doubt they cut real trails through there.



+1


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## slatham (May 10, 2016)

cdskier said:


> +1



Agree, but note that in the "master plan" the new glades around the mountains are an order of magnitude greater then current glades. I think you'd approve of the trade off. But again this is fantasy land.......


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## cdskier (May 10, 2016)

slatham said:


> Agree, but note that in the "master plan" the new glades around the mountains are an order of magnitude greater then current glades. I think you'd approve of the trade off. But again this is fantasy land.......



I was just looking back at the 2008 vegetation management plan and the amount of proposed tree skiing areas was certainly quite substantial. Of course you can still do all the glades without doing the new trail cutting around DS.  Now if they were to add another entire trail pod somewhere, then I could be interested. The other proposed trails in the master plan I saw are far more interesting than the ones around DS.


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## HowieT2 (May 10, 2016)

slatham said:


> Agree, but note that in the "master plan" the new glades around the mountains are an order of magnitude greater then current glades. I think you'd approve of the trade off. But again this is fantasy land.......



not sure I understand what you mean???


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## cdskier (May 10, 2016)

Interesting side note...Win just announced that the season pass sales for the upcoming season (which just passed the first deadline last week) were the second highest ever. Impressive considering how bad this winter was. I guess it didn't make many people think twice about getting a pass.


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## benski (May 10, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Interesting side note...Win just announced that the season pass sales for the upcoming season (which just passed the first deadline last week) were the second highest ever. Impressive considering how bad this winter was. I guess it didn't make many people think twice about getting a pass.



Maby the people who cut back on skiing this year due to bad weather can afford season passes now because of there  savings from this year or sugarbush was not hit as hard and now is more popular. 


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Aug 24, 2016)

So I just got the email about the $500 pass for anyone 30-35. If you're in that age range (like me), that's a fantastic deal. On the other hand, if you are also like me and bought a pass in April when it was supposed to be at the lowest price, you might be really f*ing pissed off right now. I'm alternating between trying to get my ski buddies to buy the pass and writing a nastygram to SB customer service.


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## benski (Aug 24, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So I just got the email about the $500 pass for anyone 30-35. If you're in that age range (like me), that's a fantastic deal. On the other hand, if you are also like me and bought a pass in April when it was supposed to be at the lowest price, you might be really f*ing pissed off right now. I'm alternating between trying to get my ski buddies to buy the pass and writing a nastygram to SB customer service.



I would just call them and ask politely. I doubt they will make you pay extra for buying early. 2 years ago I watched an 18 year old buy an adult ticket then change it to a youth after releasing he was still eligible for a youth to get some of his money back.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Aug 24, 2016)

I'm actually super curious to know what their reasoning was to offer this pass -- this is definitely not an age range that usually gets targeted discounts like this. 

They have great customer service, so we'll see what happens.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I'm actually super curious to know what their reasoning was to offer this pass -- this is definitely not an age range that usually gets targeted discounts like this.
> 
> They have great customer service, so we'll see what happens.


I'd say it's a direct reaction to Stowe offering a 19-34 pass for $599.


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## teleo (Aug 24, 2016)

Don't be nasty.  Smart move is to call and be nice.  SB will likely refund you the difference.  We paid April rate for season passes and they refunded us the difference when we were eligible for corporate rate which does not come out until Aug.  

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## LasersInTheTaiga (Aug 24, 2016)

teleo said:


> Don't be nasty.  Smart move is to call and be nice.  SB will likely refund you the difference.  We paid April rate for season passes and they refunded us the difference when we were eligible for corporate rate which does not come out until Aug.



I'm never actually nasty to people doing their jobs, "nastygram" is more of a figure of speech for me.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Aug 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I'd say it's a direct reaction to Stowe offering a 19-34 pass for $599.



Ah, but why did Stowe offer it? I suspect it's turtles all the way down.


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 24, 2016)

Look how many 19-34 year olds are living in their parents basements and there's your answer.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2016)

Just saw an e-mail from Sugarbush about this new pass. Interesting for sure and I fit right in this range (and like Lasers I already bought my pass back in April). I just shot SB an e-mail to see if they plan to do anything for people that would have benefited from the new pass had they not already bought one. Would sure be great if they give us something back for this season (I'd be happy with a credit towards a 2017-2018 pass), especially as a "thank you" to the loyal passholders in this range that have been paying full price for the past few years.

I'm also intrigued on why they decided to do this. I do have to agree that it is in direct response to Stowe offering a pass in this age range. Only reason I can think that Stowe did this was to try to capture more of the younger crowd. Perhaps they analyzed their numbers and were seeing a significant drop off in sales in that age range.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Look how many 19-34 year olds are living in their parents basements and there's your answer.


Yeah I have one of those in her late 20's. Not in the basement however.

I'm 60 & didn't leave home until I was 29. Good move since I saved money & bought a house right away before I got married. Never rented in my life.


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## Los (Aug 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Never rented in my life.



Wow dude. Some of the things you say... So what if you never rented? What's your point, and why would anyone reading this board care?


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## yeggous (Aug 25, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Look how many 19-34 year olds are living in their parents basements and there's your answer.



Look at the student loan debt and there is your cause. In my house our student loan debt is greater than our mortgage debt. Factor in the interest rate and fact that student loans are not deductible and our net cost of the loans is more than double our mortgage. And we own a single family home in the Boston suburbs.


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## djd66 (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm all for Sugarbush competing and getting plenty of business - but enough already with these deals! I'm one of the people that pay full price for passes and full price for Blazers.  No deal for me :-x  The bush has gotten a lot more crowded and it's really starting to ski like Killington. All these deals are what is driving it.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 25, 2016)

djd66 said:


> I'm all for Sugarbush competing and getting plenty of business - but enough already with these deals! I'm one of the people that pay full price for passes and full price for Blazers.  No deal for me :-x  The bush has gotten a lot more crowded and it's really starting to ski like Killington. All these deals are what is driving it.



I'm waiting for the "Mid 50's and Paying for Your Kids' Big College Tuition Bill" pass deal.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I'm waiting for the "Mid 50's and Paying for Your Kids' Big College Tuition Bill" pass deal.



Four more years & I can get the Boomer Pass. That's a really sweet deal.


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## rtjcbrown (Aug 25, 2016)

I think an interesting deal would be a "Long distance relationship" pass. Your pass will be discounted one dollar for every mile away from Sugarbush that your home address is. Example: If you live in Southern NY and you are a 225 mile drive (one way) to Sugarbush, then your pass is discounted 225 dollars. Must be able to prove this is your full time residence.


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## Jully (Aug 25, 2016)

rtjcbrown said:


> I think an interesting deal would be a "Long distance relationship" pass. Your pass will be discounted one dollar for every mile away from Sugarbush that your home address is. Example: If you live in Southern NY and you are a 225 mile drive (one way) to Sugarbush, then your pass is discounted 225 dollars. Must be able to prove this is your full time residence.



That would bug locals a whole lot though. Many other places have cheaper passes for locals already!


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## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

rtjcbrown said:


> I think an interesting deal would be a "Long distance relationship" pass. Your pass will be discounted one dollar for every mile away from Sugarbush that your home address is. Example: If you live in Southern NY and you are a 225 mile drive (one way) to Sugarbush, then your pass is discounted 225 dollars. Must be able to prove this is your full time residence.


I don't think charging locals more would go over very well.


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2016)

rtjcbrown said:


> I think an interesting deal would be a "Long distance relationship" pass. Your pass will be discounted one dollar for every mile away from Sugarbush that your home address is. Example: If you live in Southern NY and you are a 225 mile drive (one way) to Sugarbush, then your pass is discounted 225 dollars. Must be able to prove this is your full time residence.



It should work the other way around...


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## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Jully said:


> Many other places have cheaper passes for locals already!


Stowe has their County Pass.


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## Jully (Aug 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Stowe has their County Pass.



Exactly what I had in mind. In a similar vein there are state resident type passes for a few Maine and NH resorts.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Jully said:


> Exactly what I had in mind. In a similar vein there are state resident type passes for a few Maine and NH resorts.


I know a few VT. areas offer discount days for VT. & NH. residents.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 25, 2016)

I ride the lifts at Mt Ellen with a lot of locals that buy Mt Ellen passes.  It's the best deal around for a mountain with a lot of vertical, challenging terrain and high speed lifts with relatively uncrowded slopes on weekends


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## dlague (Aug 25, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> I ride the lifts at Mt Ellen with a lot of locals that buy Mt Ellen passes.  It's the best deal around for a mountain with a lot of vertical, challenging terrain and high speed lifts with relatively uncrowded slopes on weekends



We considered that as an option when we live back east but the two hour drive at the time seemed to be a lot at the time to do it frequently.  Cannon became a great option for us.

Now 1.5 to 2+ hours will our norm.  But I like our new options.


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## speeddemon (Aug 26, 2016)

I'd like to ask if anyone who has the experience can share their using the Village Run trail as a quasi ski in/ski out trail? the place I'm considering skiing out of this year is right along side that trail. On maps, it looks like a ski down, short walk to lifts and the ability to ski all the way back. However, what I don't know is usual conditions, terrain, accessibility, etc? or if they actually make snow on it in the event we have another slow start to the natural snow season. Any input greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

I've used Village Run a couple times to get back to my condo. It is very flat at the top and a decent workout on the traverse up there. I personally usually either take the shuttle back and forth or drive over. It is definitely only a "ski back to your condo" trail. You have to find another way to get back to the lifts (i.e. shuttle bus). There is no snowmaking so it is only open when weather allows.


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## dlague (Aug 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I've used Village Run a couple times to get back to my condo. It is very flat at the top and a decent workout on the traverse up there. I personally usually either take the shuttle back and forth or drive over. It is definitely only a "ski back to your condo" trail. You have to find another way to get back to the lifts (i.e. shuttle bus). There is no snowmaking so it is only open when weather allows.



And probably part of their trail count.


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## rtjcbrown (Aug 26, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't think charging locals more would go over very well.



Yup. You can tell I am not thinking like a local.


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## tumbler (Aug 26, 2016)

I am also getting a bit tired of all these pass deals that are significantly increasing skier numbers.  It's Win's right to do what he wants and to try and make as much money as he can is the short window of winter but can the guest amenity spaces be increased proportionaly with the higher skier visits?  Gate House is already too small for lunch and to get apres drinks.  Increase size or renovate Valley House and/or really explore the lodge at the top of Gate House lift.


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## Jully (Aug 26, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I am also getting a bit tired of all these pass deals that are significantly increasing skier numbers.  It's Win's right to do what he wants and to try and make as much money as he can is the short window of winter but can the guest amenity spaces be increased proportionaly with the higher skier visits?  Gate House is already too small for lunch and to get apres drinks.  Increase size or renovate Valley House and/or really explore the lodge at the top of Gate House lift.



I am always surprised at how small Sugarbush's lodges were in comparison to similarly sized resorts.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I am also getting a bit tired of all these pass deals that are significantly increasing skier numbers.  It's Win's right to do what he wants and to try and make as much money as he can is the short window of winter but can the guest amenity spaces be increased proportionaly with the higher skier visits?  Gate House is already too small for lunch and to get apres drinks.  Increase size or renovate Valley House and/or really explore the lodge at the top of Gate House lift.


 


Jully said:


> I am always surprised at how small Sugarbush's lodges were in comparison to similarly sized resorts.


I've mentioned this before but I think the Gate House Lodge has ample room to add another level inside above where the main seating & cafeteria are. They could even leave the center open & just add another level on each side for additional seating during busy times. The lodge has a very high ceiling.  I don't have an answer for what could be done with the storage room & Castlerock Pub which are also problem areas.


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## benski (Aug 26, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I am also getting a bit tired of all these pass deals that are significantly increasing skier numbers.  It's Win's right to do what he wants and to try and make as much money as he can is the short window of winter but can the guest amenity spaces be increased proportionaly with the higher skier visits?  Gate House is already too small for lunch and to get apres drinks.  Increase size or renovate Valley House and/or really explore the lodge at the top of Gate House lift.



Win said last year they are going to build a lodge at the top of gate house within a few years. It's really a shame though that management has done very little to address the fact that the valley house is mostly empty on most weekends do the the food being lesser versions of gate house food. 


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I am also getting a bit tired of all these pass deals that are significantly increasing skier numbers.  It's Win's right to do what he wants and to try and make as much money as he can is the short window of winter but can the guest amenity spaces be increased proportionaly with the higher skier visits?  Gate House is already too small for lunch and to get apres drinks.  Increase size or renovate Valley House and/or really explore the lodge at the top of Gate House lift.



I just tend to avoid lodges in general. I'd rather go over to Sugarbush Village for lunch at either Mutha Stuffers or Pizza Soul anyway.

Also, do we think the Early 30s pass is going to actually increase skier numbers significantly? I'm more inclined to think it will just help retain existing skiers.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

benski said:


> It's really a shame though that management has done very little to address the fact that the valley house is mostly empty on most weekends do the the food being lesser versions of gate house food.


Now that's saying something since I've never found the cafeteria food at Gate House to be particularly appetizing.


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## teleo (Aug 26, 2016)

This year Dino of mother stuffers intends to operate the reks in the old pine tree pub location for lunch too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## benski (Aug 26, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Now that's saying something since I've never found the cafeteria food at Gate House to be particularly appetizing.


The main difference between the quality of food in the two lodges is turnover and the options are more limited. The food in the Valley House tends to sit out for much longer before being purchased. I think the quality would be the same if the cafeteria was more busy.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

teleo said:


> This year Dino of mother stuffers intends to operate the reks in the old pine tree pub location for lunch too.



The Reks will hopefully be another choice that would be vastly superior to the base lodges. Better food, better prices, and you support a local small business.

Back to on-mountain food, in a recent e-mail from Win to "Sugarbush Community Members" he did mention they plan to continue to improve food service this winter with more "made-to-order options and service upgrades". They are also transforming the Glen House from a "mini cafeteria to a mid-mountain restaurant with local craft beers, healthy sandwiches, tasty tacos, and grain bowls."


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## Jully (Aug 26, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Now that's saying something since I've never found the cafeteria food at Gate House to be particularly appetizing.





benski said:


> The main difference between the quality of food in the two lodges is turnover and the options are more limited. The food in the Valley House tends to sit out for much longer before being purchased. I think the quality would be the same if the cafeteria was more busy.



I find most lodge food pretty much the same (and generally unappetizing) with a few exceptions. The biggest difference between most places is the turnover rate. The more people eating the fresher and better the food.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

Jully said:


> I find most lodge food pretty much the same (and generally unappetizing)* with a few exceptions.*


Yes there are a few exceptions. Spruce Lodge at Stowe & the Peak Lodge at Killington come to mind.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 26, 2016)

Instead of complaining about crowds and food options - pack a lunch and ski at Mt Ellen


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Instead of complaining about crowds and food options - pack a lunch and ski at Mt Ellen


Lol, I'm there quite a few Thursdays for the $30 deal. I don't pack lunch however. At that price I feel obligated to spend a little at the mountain. The food in the upstairs pub is not bad.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

If I do eat on-mountain, it would be at CR Pub, Wunderbar, etc. The food at those places is pretty good. Cafeteria food is cafeteria food and there would have to be no other options open for me to go eat in one of the cafeterias in the lodges.


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## bigbog (Aug 26, 2016)

Jully said:


> Exactly what I had in mind. In a similar vein there are state resident type passes for a few Maine and NH resorts.



There is one day/week = Wednesdays with Boyne(SL), where state residents only have had to pay ~$40 for many years.  Great pricing but one midweek day/week isn't anything like a Pass.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Aug 26, 2016)

So I just got a call from Sugarbush. It seems like they are literally going down the list of qualifying passholders, calling them, and offering to switch the pass to the early 30's pass and refund the difference. Super impressed by them (yet again).


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So I just got a call from Sugarbush. It seems like they are literally going down the list of qualifying passholders, calling them, and offering to switch the pass to the early 30's pass and refund the difference. Super impressed by them (yet again).



Well that's awesome to hear. If I saw this post a few minutes ago I wouldn't have shot Sugarbush an e-mail a few minutes ago asking if they had a plan and would have waited instead.


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## dlague (Aug 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> If I do eat on-mountain, it would be at CR Pub, Wunderbar, etc. The food at those places is pretty good. Cafeteria food is cafeteria food and there would have to be no other options open for me to go eat in one of the cafeterias in the lodges.



CR Pub does have good food for sure but has a tendency to get real busy so we go over to Timbers which also has good food.  Wunderbar, meh!


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## WWF-VT (Aug 26, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So I just got a call from Sugarbush. It seems like they are literally going down the list of qualifying passholders, calling them, and offering to switch the pass to the early 30's pass and refund the difference. Super impressed by them (yet again).



My guess is that Sugarbush will see a marginal , if any, overall increase in revenue by offering this pass option when you factor in the refunds they are offering to people that purchased other eligible pass options the spring.  It is good for customer satisfaction to offer the refund.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> My guess is that Sugarbush will see a marginal , if any, overall increase in revenue by offering this pass option when you factor in the refunds they are offering to people that purchased other eligible pass options the spring.  It is good for customer satisfaction to offer the refund.



I tend to agree. Although without knowing how many people in this age range already had passes it is hard to say how many new passes they need to sell to make up for it. If they only had a few dozen in this age range, then they could probably easily drive enough new pass sales to make up the refund amounts. If they had hundreds in this range already, then that is a lot of ground to recover on the other hand. I still have to think this is in direct response to Stowe's new Young Adult pass having an age range up to the mid 30s. They must've been worried they would lose market-share in this age group. Either that or they saw a significant drop off in pass sales once people aged out of the Four 20s pass and are trying to hold onto those people longer.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 26, 2016)

One thing is for certain, that their customer service reputation seems to be very good, and getting even better, and that word of it is really getting around.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> One thing is for certain, that their customer service reputation seems to be very good, and getting even better, and that word of it is really getting around.


Yeah OK.


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 26, 2016)

Killington has better customer service consistently in my experience.

Jay is the worst but that could change.

Sugarbush is hit or miss.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> If I do eat on-mountain, it would be at CR Pub, Wunderbar, etc. The food at those places is pretty good. Cafeteria food is cafeteria food and there would have to be no other options open for me to go eat in one of the cafeterias in the lodges.



In the East, Spruce Peak at Stowe is a definite exception. Their cafeteria food is better than just about any ski area sit down restaurant in the area.  Worth the premium they charge.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2016)

Imagine ceramic plates with stainless utensils. They even bus your table. In a cafeteria. Only two places in the east do this to my knowledge.


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## dlague (Aug 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> In the East, Spruce Peak at Stowe is a definite exception. Their cafeteria food is better than just about any ski area sit down restaurant in the area.  Worth the premium they charge.



Premium is right - holy prices!  But not your typical cafeteria.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 27, 2016)

dlague said:


> Premium is right - holy prices!


This from a guy with an Epic Pass. I've heard Vail Resorts food pricing is even worse.


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## dlague (Aug 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> This from a guy with an Epic Pass. I've heard Vail Resorts food pricing is even worse.



Heck I will bring a thermos with hotdogs for lunch and pack my own beverages.


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## yeggous (Aug 28, 2016)

dlague said:


> Heck I will bring a thermos with hotdogs for lunch and pack my own beverages.



Classy. Hadn't even thought of this.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2016)

Thermos was the best investment I've made for skiing. Turkey and gravy over mashed potatoes, mac n cheese, pasta and meatballs, etc. Tastes better than most stuff on the mountain. Just make sure you fill it up all the way or it will get cold.


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## dlague (Aug 28, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Classy. Hadn't even thought of this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



A friend of our turned us on to that.  Boil water stuff hotdogs in and voila.  We bring two thermos' to share with others.  Buns are light and the ski area has condiments.



Tin said:


> Thermos was the best investment I've made for skiing. Turkey and gravy over mashed potatoes, mac n cheese, pasta and meatballs, etc. Tastes better than most stuff on the mountain. Just make sure you fill it up all the way or it will get cold.



Those are some good ideas too!  We put the thermos in an insulated bag as well.   We boot up at the car.  Throw everything in a pack and drop it of at the lodge and ski on!


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 28, 2016)

Skiing on The Cheap >>>


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 15, 2016)

The wunderbar is great.  It gives you the old New England charm with live music and a good view.  And you can't forget about the Meatball bread bowl, it's fantastic.


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## rocks860 (Oct 16, 2016)

I haven't been in that lodge in forever


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## dlague (Oct 16, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> The wunderbar is great.  It gives you the old New England charm with live music and a good view.  And you can't forget about the Meatball bread bowl, it's fantastic.
> View attachment 20851



Walking from there to the parking lot acres ski is a bit of a chore.  Unless you left your skis there.  If you decide to take skis off then go there it is chore getting to it.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 29, 2016)

They say if a bunny comes out for a photo bomb from a snow storm in October, it's going to be a good year.


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## cdskier (Oct 29, 2016)

Loving the new snow stake time-lapse cam.


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## slatham (Oct 29, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> They say if a bunny comes out for a photo bomb from a snow storm in October, it's going to be a good year.
> View attachment 20931



Yes hoping it's a hare-e winter....


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## El Bishop (Nov 11, 2016)

Temps not looking great for the 19th to open


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## cdskier (Nov 11, 2016)

All depends on production this weekend and whether they lose much mid-week. I think they can be open with terrain off Heaven's Gate only. I think T2B is out of the question though. Won't be worth the drive for me though with only potentially HG open. A picture I saw yesterday showed a pretty white Jester and Organgrinder, but hard to tell how much snow was actually made already since the picture was taken from a distance.


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## phin (Nov 18, 2016)

skimrv down for anyone else?


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## slatham (Nov 18, 2016)

phin said:


> skimrv down for anyone else?




It was yesterday. AZ was too.


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## benski (Nov 18, 2016)

I am getting "error 403"


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## Tin (Nov 18, 2016)

Any chance they open on Tuesday if they get the snow?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 18, 2016)

Tin said:


> Any chance they open on Tuesday if they get the snow?



Not likely at all to open on Tuesday unless they did a limited passholder only soft opening.  I'll be there Wednesday and through the weekend.


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## tumbler (Nov 18, 2016)

I don't know how Jester-Downspout and OG look now with the warm up but with the forecast natural and good temps it would be nice if they could make a run to the bottom to TTB instead of downloading.


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 18, 2016)

There you go.  Forecasted snow, liberal policies seem ripe for optimism....


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2016)

I'm a bit disappointed that they turned off the Heaven's Gate camera for some reason. Now I really have no clue what any part of the mountain with snow on it looks like. As for TTB, I'm sure they will try as soon as they are sure they have enough snow on the upper trails. I really have no idea how much they had made and how much they lost with the warmth this week. The natural snow in the snow stake camera is getting pretty thin...


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## benski (Nov 18, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I'm a bit disappointed that they turned off the Heaven's Gate camera for some reason. Now I really have no clue what any part of the mountain with snow on it looks like. As for TTB, I'm sure they will try as soon as they are sure they have enough snow on the upper trails. I really have no idea how much they had made and how much they lost with the warmth this week. The natural snow in the snow stake camera is getting pretty thin...



Still better than nothing and knowing Sugarbush I would not be surprised if they open with Spillsville and Upper Ripcord.


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## teleo (Nov 18, 2016)

Don't understand why they turned the cams off, or why they turn them off ever. 

From wins blog: It is almost certain that will be downloading on Opening Day, but will be shooting to get top-to-bottom as soon as possible. 

I'm figuring, or hoping, they blow jester, og, deathspout sun mon Tues, and move to get ttb and not blast skiers on Wed.  That should get ttb by Friday or at least on Sat when I get there. 

Of course if the upslope machine turns on, anything is possible

If Nick would fix skimrv we'd likely get the full plan from Win. Someone over there suggested an alternative site.  They should have done it.  Still could and post the Url to SB Facebook page.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2016)

They have until about the week of December 5th to get things in shape before I start skiing. Thanksgiving weekend has too much family stuff going on. Come December though I'm hoping to be up there a lot mid-week burning up my remaining vacation days for the year.

I'd expect that they will blast Jester, OG, and Downspout Sunday to Monday or Tuesday and then focus on getting something open lower down if temps allow. If temps don't cooperate down low, I'd expect them to shift to Ripcord (at least during open hours) and blow more up high. Will be interesting to watch how this unfolds.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 19, 2016)

I just got back from a walk to the Heaven’s Gate chair at Lincoln Peak where it was 59 degrees in the parking lot.   They have blown snow on Downspout just to the HG chair and the trail still needs more snow and grooming in advance of Wednesday’s planned opening.  There are no hoses set up on Lower Downspout and Lower Jester so don’t expect TTB by next weekend via that route.


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## slatham (Nov 19, 2016)

The wild card is how much natural they get. I do not think their plans from the other day contemplated the _possibility_ of getting 12-18" which is the current forecast along the spine of the greens from what I just saw.

The other factor is they will have good temps down low Sunday night - Thur am. Thereafter they may only have good temps up high. So I wouldn't be surprised if they pull some guns to the DS/J runout Tues night- Thur am assuming all goes well up top Sunday-Tues and it does in fact snow a foot plus. Then they are TTB for Friday and can move back up as temps demand. 

Where's Shady when you need him!


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 19, 2016)

slatham said:


> The wild card is how much natural they get. I do not think their plans from the other day contemplated the _possibility_ of getting 12-18" which is the current forecast along the spine of the greens from what I just saw.
> 
> The other factor is they will have good temps down low Sunday night - Thur am. Thereafter they may only have good temps up high. So I wouldn't be surprised if they pull some guns to the DS/J runout Tues night- Thur am assuming all goes well up top Sunday-Tues and it does in fact snow a foot plus. Then they are TTB for Friday and can move back up as temps demand.
> 
> Where's Shady when you need him!



How many hours to they need to open up to the bottom?  They should probably do it anyway.  With the amount of snow that they could possibly get, skiers will probably ski to the bottom anyway, If they could add some snowmaking to it, it will be safer for the skiers.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2016)

12-18" on top of no base isn't much...it may not even be enough to fill in some of the water bars. Add to that the fact that lower elevations may not get as much as the upper mountain and I say no way there's enough to risk skiing to the bottom until they've made snow on it.

Bottom line is I don't think the 12-18" potential natural will impact their snow-making plans too much.


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## benski (Nov 19, 2016)

cdskier said:


> 12-18" on top of no base isn't much...it may not even be enough to fill in some of the water bars. Add to that the fact that lower elevations may not get as much as the upper mountain and I say no way there's enough to risk skiing to the bottom until they've made snow on it.
> 
> Bottom line is I don't think the 12-18" potential natural will impact their snow-making plans too much.



It's enough for spills and upper ripcord. Those trails don't take much.


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 19, 2016)

+1.  Skied them when they're thin and it's not so bad.  Don't bring your best, but certainly worth the vert.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 19, 2016)

The ground isn’t frozen and there is no snow currently on Ripcord and minimal snow on Spillsville.  You have to be a real optimist to think they will get open after this upcoming snow event.  It’s a treat to ski Ripcord on natural snow but I am not confident that it’s going to happen by next weekend.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> The ground isn’t frozen and there is no snow currently on Ripcord and minimal snow on Spillsville.  You have to be a real optimist to think they will get open after this upcoming snow event.  It’s a treat to ski Ripcord on natural snow but I am not confident that it’s going to happen by next weekend.



Agreed. People are being way too optimistic about what this snow will do.


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2016)

Yeah, no way TTB  by weekend since no guns set up down low. I forgot their new snowmaking philosophy of blowing on a trail for long time then pulling all equipment off to set up the next trail. Thanksgiving is not a ski holiday anyway.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 20, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Yeah, no way TTB  by weekend since no guns set up down low. I forgot their new snowmaking philosophy of blowing on a trail for long time then pulling all equipment off to set up the next trail. Thanksgiving is not a ski holiday anyway.



With the snow they are getting now thru Tuesday how much does it take from them to blow on lower downspout, lower jester to coffee run.  They are all pretty narrow trails.  Plus with all the snowstorm making the news in the boston area, It may attract some business for cheap ski/stay if they are TTTB for thanksgiving weekend.


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> With the snow they are getting now thru Tuesday how much does it take from them to blow on lower downspout, lower jester to coffee run.  They are all pretty narrow trails.  Plus with all the snowstorm making the news in the boston area, It may attract some business for cheap ski/stay if they are TTTB for thanksgiving weekend.



Lower DS->Lower Jester-> Coffee Run may be narrow, but it is still a long run out (>1 mile long). Keep in mind that I don't see anything in the forecast showing ideal round the clock snowmaking temps down low. So down low you are working with good temps at night but marginal during the day at best with the current forecast this week.


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## BarkingDog (Nov 20, 2016)

Is skimrv.com down or is it just me?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## benski (Nov 20, 2016)

BarkingDog said:


> Is skimrv.com down or is it just me?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Its been down for a few days. But on the bright side I no longer get unsafe site warnings when I try to visit.


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## flakeydog (Nov 20, 2016)

Skimrv is a bit of a train wreck. Wish it was working because I like the local info. Unfortunately it is so hard to log in to that it does not get used like it used to. 

On another note- bunny tracks on the snow cam!  But no sign of the critter himself. Just missed him I guess!


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 21, 2016)

QUOTE: "As soon as temperatures and snowfall allow, we will open top-to-bottom. " from Sugarbush website 11/21 morning.  So 3 straight days of temperatures that will be below 28 degrees isn't enough to open one trail for 900 vertical feet?


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## benski (Nov 21, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> QUOTE: "As soon as temperatures and snowfall allow, we will open top-to-bottom. " from Sugarbush website 11/21 morning.  So 3 straight days of temperatures that will be below 28 degrees isn't enough to open one trail for 900 vertical feet?



It is close two two miles though.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> QUOTE: "As soon as temperatures and snowfall allow, we will open top-to-bottom. " from Sugarbush website 11/21 morning.  So 3 straight days of temperatures that will be below 28 degrees isn't enough to open one trail for 900 vertical feet?



They need to finish making snow on the upper mountain trails first. They like to ensure they have sufficient base depth to stand up to any potential thaws before they move on to other trails. They don't just dust and run. If the upper mountain was done and they could focus exclusively on the bottom, then yes, 3 straight days would probably be enough from what I remember. Although even 28 is only considered marginal for snowmaking.


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 21, 2016)

+1.  Patience!  SB has proven to have the right blend of fiscal responsibility, yet very flexible once opportunities are presented.  Let's hope for mother nature to provide and this becomes a non issue.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

Sugarbush also tends to prefer to over-deliver rather than over-promise. So for all we know they might internally think they can get Lower DS->Lower Jester->Coffee Run open by later this week but would rather just not say anything in case they can't and then if they can it would be a "pleasant surprise".


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 21, 2016)

cdskier said:


> They need to finish making snow on the upper mountain trails first. They like to ensure they have sufficient base depth to stand up to any potential thaws before they move on to other trails. They don't just dust and run. If the upper mountain was done and they could focus exclusively on the bottom, then yes, 3 straight days would probably be enough from what I remember. Although even 28 is only considered marginal for snowmaking.



I can understand a conservative approach last year when the cold temperatures were only lasting for a couple day period at a time.  Then I can understand base building last year.  This year the long range forecast looks extremely promising.  They also have been blowing on the upper mtn for the past couple of weeks and they have received a healthy dose of natural snow on top of it.  If they only have capabilities to run guns on three trails at a time, then I understand.  But they should be able to blow snow on more than three trails(jester, downspout and organgrinder).  
All the resorts in vermont that are opening on Thanksgiving are opening top to bottom except Sugarbush.

P.S.
We need skimrv back online


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> I can understand a conservative approach last year when the cold temperatures were only lasting for a couple day period at a time.  Then I can understand base building last year.  This year the long range forecast looks extremely promising.  They also have been blowing on the upper mtn for the past couple of weeks and they have received a healthy dose of natural snow on top of it.  If they only have capabilities to run guns on three trails at a time, then I understand.  But they should be able to blow snow on more than three trails(jester, downspout and organgrinder).
> All the resorts in vermont that are opening on Thanksgiving are opening top to bottom except Sugarbush.
> 
> P.S.
> We need skimrv back online



From a manpower perspective it also makes much more sense to focus on a few trails at a time instead of constantly moving equipment around.

That said, wasn't it only the recent upgrades the past few years with the new low-e guns that enabled them to even blow on Upper Jester, DS, and OG simultaneously? From what I remember last year, they had nearly 100 guns going simultaneously on those trails at one point. That's a lot of firepower and pretty sure that maxes out their water capacity if I remember correctly. SB doesn't have the super powerful snowmaking infrastructure that other places have, but they do quite well with what they have. 

They may have been blowing on the upper mountain for the past couple weeks...but they also lost A LOT of snow with the recent warmth and rain.

I will agree with you that we need skimrv back online though. I love win's insight over there.


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## benski (Nov 21, 2016)

Its not that sugarbush does not have a super powerful snowmaking system, its that they have 2 systems with only being used for racers and midseason conditions. I think they had the snow to open Rim Run to Elbow this weekend but Mt. Ellen does not open early season.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

benski said:


> Its not that sugarbush does not have a super powerful snowmaking system, its that they have 2 systems with only being used for racers and midseason conditions. I think they had the snow to open Rim Run to Elbow this weekend but Mt. Ellen does not open early season.



Before the skimrv site crashed Win said they tested out the skiing at ME but it wasn't enough to open. Said it would have been ok for the first hour or so and then the skiing would have been crap so it seems like they did consider toying with the idea of opening ME.


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## flakeydog (Nov 21, 2016)

So to pull something out of my butt here... my theory is that they were blowing snow on Elbow for GMVS early season.  Perhaps better blow snow on a trail that will be in use when Mt Ellen opens anyway rather than try to cover Inverness (esp at lower elevation with sketchy temps this time of year).  I do not pretend to know what the agreement between them is but I imagine this may be a more cost effective way for both parties to get snow time this time of year.  It was frustrating last year to see Inverness get covered and uncovered several times last Nov/Dec.  

And no, I do not think it is financially prudent for Sugarbush to run both mountains prior to mid december.  They never have and I would not suggest they start now.  North passes are good at south now anyway until Mt Ellen opens.

On another note, looks like this 205 page thread is becoming the new Skimrv.  I'd rather have the old one back!


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

They always start making snow on ME up high around the same time as they start at LP. Elbow and Rim Run were the first trails to get snowmaking last year around this time as well at ME. As long as you have temps, no point in waiting until closer to opening day in December. Ideally you get a situation where you can open ME later in December with as many snowmaking trails as possible ready to go for that day.

Win did mention that there was a possibility that some of the WC athletes could potentially use Elbow for some practice and training as well.


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## slatham (Nov 21, 2016)

cdskier said:


> They always start making snow on ME up high around the same time as they start at LP. Elbow and Rim Run were the first trails to get snowmaking last year around this time as well at ME. As long as you have temps, no point in waiting until closer to opening day in December. Ideally you get a situation where you can open ME later in December with as many snowmaking trails as possible ready to go for that day.
> 
> Win did mention that there was a possibility that some of the WC athletes could potentially use Elbow for some practice and training as well.



Agreed except that in a normal year they move to Inverness as soon as they have lower mountain temps, and they do this as a top priority (at least in Nov/early Dec) in order to provide skiing on Inverness for GMVS. They do have some form of deal with GMVS, and IIRC GMVS actually owns some of the recently purchased SnowLogics.

That said, given the temp set up this year, and the desire to have a training ground for WC racers pre-Killington, the top was the focus and as far as I know (without a personal inspection) they have not made snow on Inverness.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

Btw...if you go to the Sugarbush app and go to the Heaven's Gate cam and switch it to live video instead of still image mode, you can see the snowmaking taking place at the base of the HG chair. No idea why they decided to simply replace the still image pictures with an "Opening Soon" graphic.


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## benski (Nov 21, 2016)

It appears Sugarbush now has guns set up around the Valley House but they are not running.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 21, 2016)

Instead of Lower DS->Lower Jester->Coffee Run think about VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling as the TTB route


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## WWF-VT (Nov 21, 2016)

benski said:


> It appears Sugarbush now has guns set up around the Valley House but they are not running.



They guns were there when I took a walk at LP on Saturday.  There are a large number of the SnowLogic guns already set up on the lower third of Inverness just waiting for temps to allow snowmaking for GMVS.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 21, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Instead of Lower DS->Lower Jester->Coffee Run think about VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling as the TTB route



That would be interesting...  It would spread people out taking the pressure off of Death Spout.  There is a lot of ground to cover on Snowball>Spring Fling though


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Instead of Lower DS->Lower Jester->Coffee Run think about VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling as the TTB route



I like that option better as at least it is something other than just a runout that you can actually lap if you wanted to. With the snowmaking pipe upgrades on Spring Fling/Snowball...wasn't it something like 48 hours of snowmaking to open it with the right temps (if they focus on that exclusively)? Certainly would help spread people out as well.


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## tumbler (Nov 21, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Instead of Lower DS->Lower Jester->Coffee Run think about VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling as the TTB route



It would also give them VH chair along with Bravo out of the base but doubt that will happen.  Doing Lower DS to Coffee Run makes more sense though because then you go after Lower OG and Lower Jester, then Murpy's, Birland and that is a big chunk of the main mountain open and pressure off Downspout.  The early seaon trails are the longest in terms of miles to get open but once done with those it usually fills in pretty quick.  I think snowball/fling came on early last year to show off the new chair.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 21, 2016)

For all the sugarbush followers(we are here now until skimrv is back online), what are your thoughts on the new snowcam?  I like it but not sure how accurate it is.  I think it right off Jester but is it to sheltered?  I noticed that the storm in October and then this storm that Mad River Glen got a lot more snow out of each storm than Sugarbush did. Normally they are real close or SB receives a little more. I was wondering if the snow stake is to sheltered and not giving you an accurate reading when there is any wind?


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2016)

tumbler said:


> It would also give them VH chair along with Bravo out of the base but doubt that will happen.  Doing Lower DS to Coffee Run makes more sense though because then you go after Lower OG and Lower Jester, then Murpy's, Birland and that is a big chunk of the main mountain open and pressure off Downspout.  The early seaon trails are the longest in terms of miles to get open but once done with those it usually fills in pretty quick.  I think snowball/fling came on early last year to show off the new chair.



They also justified it last year as helping to spread the crowds out. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them move Spring Fling/Snowball up in the priority list on a regular basis for 2 reasons. 1) The VH chair. 2) The upgraded snowmaking capabilities on those trails



nhskier1969 said:


> For all the sugarbush followers(we are here now until skimrv is back online), what are your thoughts on the new snowcam?  I like it but not sure how accurate it is.  I think it right off Jester but is it to sheltered?  I noticed that the storm in October and then this storm that Mad River Glen got a lot more snow out of each storm than Sugarbush did. Normally they are real close or SB receives a little more. I was wondering if the snow stake is to sheltered and not giving you an accurate reading when there is any wind?



It is right near the top of the HG chair. It seems they may have moved it back into the woods a bit more compared to where it was last year just to provide a bit better shelter. Last year it had serious drifting issues. This year I haven't seen any drifts yet on the cam. Right now I'm pretty happy with what I've seen of the cam so far this season. I wouldn't put too much stock in comparing how much snow SB has had to MRG so far. Wait until we get some real major storms and start comparing. A difference of a few inches here and there is nothing to worry about. I've seen squalls hit Lincoln Peak that missed ME and vice versa in the past.


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## shadyjay (Nov 21, 2016)

The snow stake is indeed right at the top of Heaven's Gate lift, on the left right at the unload area.  It's a secured spot in the trees with a light on it.  It's interesting seeing that light when riding up the lift in the middle of the night.  

Lower Downspout->Lower Jester is the t2b route that's getting started (if it hasn't already, I'm off tonight).  Less acreage than covering SB/Fling, though SB/Fling is all set up and ready to fire, and has been since the early days of this month.


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2016)

Good to see you here Shady. Always nice to have your insider knowledge!


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## tumbler (Nov 22, 2016)

Just be glad there is a snow stake at the summit with a camera on it!  If it is a little off so be it


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## slatham (Nov 22, 2016)

shadyjay said:


> The snow stake is indeed right at the top of Heaven's Gate lift, on the left right at the unload area.  It's a secured spot in the trees with a light on it.  It's interesting seeing that light when riding up the lift in the middle of the night.
> 
> Lower Downspout
> 
> Thanks Shady. How long does it typically take to open Lower Downspout->Lower Jester ??


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## rtjcbrown (Nov 22, 2016)

Looking at the video webcam at 10:00 am, and it sure looks like they are getting ready to load the Super Bravo any time now. Lift is running, three attendants are there, and one is smoothing out the loading area, while the others are setting up cones.


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## Hawk (Nov 22, 2016)

I have not been able to log into the SkiMRV site for months.  Have been lurking here for years so I decided to log in.
I cannot properly describe my excitement to get skiing this year.  Things are looking good on the snow and opening day should be awesome.  I love this time of year.


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## Hawk (Nov 22, 2016)

rtjcbrown said:


> Looking at the video webcam at 10:00 am, and it sure looks like they are getting ready to load the Super Bravo any time now. Lift is running, three attendants are there, and one is smoothing out the loading area, while the others are setting up cones.



Probably Win, the marketing crew and assorted others.  Maybe a soft start for the well informed.  If I was up I would wander on over and see if I could join in.


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## shadyjay (Nov 22, 2016)

[for some reason, I can't quote any message.  it disables my space bar]

Most likely they're spinning the lift for the various staff to get up the mountain, training, etc.  This includes the lift attendants destined to Heaven's Gate to get that ready (build the ramp, bring tools up, etc), plus the top ramp, etc. Patrol is also probably skiing around and has to bring up all their tools and equipment (bamboo, discos, etc).  

Probably would take a few days to open from below HG to the base.  Prior to this snow, that was all bare ground (remember, it was nearly 70 deg on Saturday).  There's waterbars to fill in, and it's still a long route, despite not being as wide as SB-Fling.  All depends on the temps, however.  And since it is a primary route, you'd want to groom it before opening, most likely, though I've seen it opened without grooming in the past.  Before you groom it, you do want it to leach out so it doesn't turn into one big pile of ice.


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## tnt1234 (Nov 22, 2016)

Just called in to buy a 4 pack.  They are opening tomorrow.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 22, 2016)

Just went on SB website and they have it updated for opening day with 4 trails, they usual suspects.  But if says snowmaking trails 0.  Anyone know if this is true, that they currently aren't making snow?


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## teleo (Nov 22, 2016)

My guess has been they move snowmaking lower to get ttb and not blow skiers.  They like to avoid blowing skiers.

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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2016)

I find it hard to believe they aren't making snow somewhere with these temps. Unless there's a problem, I'm inclined to say someone just didn't properly update the website (at least I hope that's what it is).


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2016)

No sign of snowmaking in the base area overnight from the view on the cam. I still wish they had a cam that gave you a view of either the whole LP area or at least the HG summit area.


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## Jully (Nov 23, 2016)

Is the lack of SkiMRV hurting their communication this year? I thought Win was usually pretty open about where he was blowing snow and prospective opening dates. Their opening today is quite soft and not as advertised as I'd have thought.


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2016)

Jully said:


> Is the lack of SkiMRV hurting their communication this year? I thought Win was usually pretty open about where he was blowing snow and prospective opening dates. Their opening today is quite soft and not as advertised as I'd have thought.



It is certainly hurting us in the sense that we're not getting the insider updates from Win. He had just started actively posting again in skimrv for the season right before the site crashed. Would be really great if skimrv was fixed asap. It has been completely down almost a week now and I'm certainly missing not hearing from Win on the plans...

As for the opening being not well advertised, I didn't notice any difference there compared to other years. I received multiple e-mails from Sugarbush leading up to opening day and saw several posts from them on Facebook. Not sure what else they usually do, but that's usually where I've seen the info in the past.


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## Jully (Nov 23, 2016)

cdskier said:


> It is certainly hurting us in the sense that we're not getting the insider updates from Win. He had just started actively posting again in skimrv for the season right before the site crashed. Would be really great if skimrv was fixed asap. It has been completely down almost a week now and I'm certainly missing not hearing from Win on the plans...
> 
> As for the opening being not well advertised, I didn't notice any difference there compared to other years. I received multiple e-mails from Sugarbush leading up to opening day and saw several posts from them on Facebook. Not sure what else they usually do, but that's usually where I've seen the info in the past.



I suppose I meant more the buildup to the opening, the opening date itself was well advertised as usual, you're right. Thanks, that clears things up. Definitely need to get that site up asap!


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 23, 2016)

According the website they aren't making any snow on any part of the mountain.  I don't understand their thinking of not opening a TTB route.  I would have to imagine that they picked up over a foot of snow from the bottom of Stiens going up the mountain.  With that snow and the cold weather i couldn't have taken much more snow to open up the runout.  The runout wouldn't have needed nearly the snow on it as Downspout or Organgrinder.  Every Vermont resort that is opening up this week is top to bottom except Sugarbush.


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 23, 2016)

It is surprising.  I was hoping for an under promise over deliver this AM with TTB, but alas. Not sure what's up and surprised by the no snowmaking....

Any inside info as to what's happening?


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2016)

I'm extremely surprised as well that it says nothing about snowmaking. Temps up high are still excellent even if they don't want to blow down low in marginal temps. And LP and ME are two completely separate systems, so even if there was an issue with one system they should be running the other. I know in the past at times GMP asked them to curtail power and stop snowmaking, but usually SB mentions that in their report in that situation so people know why they shut down snowmaking.

I'm not surprised they aren't TTB. The runout below HG takes more snow than people think. But I am surprised there seems to have been no attempt overnight to even make snow in the base area to get started.


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## noworriesvt (Nov 23, 2016)

Was on the hill today and was told by lift ops they can't get water up the hill. Unclear exactly where the problem is but explains why no snowmaking.  Appears they only made a small amount of snow on lower DS/Coffee Run, they have a fair ways to go before getting that open.

Snow was firm early on, then softened a bit thru mid morning with skier traffic.


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## teleo (Nov 23, 2016)

noworriesvt said:


> Was on the hill today and was told by lift ops they can't get water up the hill.



We'll that would explain it.  But is very bad news  Now I'm scared to think about the weekend if we don't see snow being made soon.


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2016)

noworriesvt said:


> Was on the hill today and was told by lift ops they can't get water up the hill. Unclear exactly where the problem is but explains why no snowmaking.



Ouch...that's not good but definitely explains it. Hope they can identify and fix the problem soon. Pretty sure no guns were visible going in the HG webcam at this time yesterday. If they were having problems by that point, that means they've now lost over 24 hours of a good snowmaking window. Early season that hurts.


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 23, 2016)

Well that explains it.  Seemed strange they weren't giving the patrons a TTB via lower downspout  etc.  SB has always been transparent and appreciated by all.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 23, 2016)

Skiing was good today but it was colder than expected.  Ski patrol boot packed Spillsville and I saw of couple of poached lines down Ripcord but it still needs a lot more snow to open.

FWIW there is snowmaking happening at Mt Ellen - guns are on at the base area of the GMX and Rim Run but at Lincoln Peak you can't make snow without H20.


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW there is snowmaking happening at Mt Ellen - guns are on at the base area of the GMX and Rim Run but at Lincoln Peak you can't make snow without H20.



Temps are going to be quite good tonight even down to the base...a real shame they're having problems with the water at LP. If I was SB, I'd at least put the ME snowmaking info on the website although maybe that would also raise more questions on why ME has snowmaking but LP doesn't.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 24, 2016)

The skiing was excelent yesterday, there was a glaze of ice in the morning that softened up nicely. Edge to edge coverage on all open runs. A little crusty elsewhere but fun. The rumour about the water is waterflow on the madriver. The pond is reportedly tapped out for now- due to drought. Lets prey for the natural to keep falling. Snowing pretty hard now- happy thanksgiving.


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## phin (Nov 24, 2016)

Castlerockrisk said:


> The skiing was excelent yesterday, there was a glaze of ice in the morning that softened up nicely. Edge to edge coverage on all open runs. A little crusty elsewhere but fun. The rumour about the water is waterflow on the madriver. The pond is reportedly tapped out for now- due to drought. Lets prey for the natural to keep falling. Snowing pretty hard now- happy thanksgiving.



Wow, well that's not positive.  Thanks for the report. 



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## teleo (Nov 24, 2016)

Yikes.  That sounds horrible.  Pray for snow!

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## djd66 (Nov 24, 2016)

Wow - if they don't have water for snowmaking,... we are all  fuc'd.  I really hope that is a bad rumor.  I just spent $4K++++ in season passes, blazers, gmvs, ski gear,......


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## tumbler (Nov 24, 2016)

I have a hard time believing they drained the pond with 3 days of snowmaking. They can take water from the river proportional to the flow and the drought is no where near as bad as it is in MA. They are still blowing at ME and it is fed from a brook down by the School. My bet is that it is something mechanical. Either way not good at all. I also have a lot of $$$ invested in passes, housing, etc.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2016)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

It's been five years since I was an SB passholder, but am  that they STILL have snowmaking problems.  Something is wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 24, 2016)

So... has anyone reached out to Win and asked him to post here until skimrv is fixed?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2016)

Nice footage from WCAX.  

http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=12920966&autostart=true


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## phin (Nov 26, 2016)

Anyone know any more about what's up w/ snowmaking at south?  Been watching the trail report and still not seeing any snowmaking activity.  


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## mbedle (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm going to guess that the warm weather is partially to blame. It looks like Stowe is not blowing any snow until later today.


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## Tin (Nov 26, 2016)

Organgrinder, Ripcord, Jester, Deathspout could/should be the best early season offering in New England with a ton of vert and challenging terrain but they always seem to have something go wrong. 

Wasn't it a few years ago they blasted Heaven's Gate with a snowmaking gun and it shut the chair down for a busy, early season weekend?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2016)

Tin said:


> Organgrinder, Ripcord, Jester, Deathspout could/should be the best early season offering in New England with a ton of vert and challenging terrain but they always seem to have something go wrong.
> 
> Wasn't it a few years ago they blasted Heaven's Gate with a snowmaking gun and it shut the chair down for a busy, early season weekend?



This. They used to have game. Now it is just status quo. 


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I'm going to guess that the warm weather is partially to blame. It looks like Stowe is not blowing any snow until later today.



I agree it could explain the past day or two and we'll have to see what happens when it gets cold again. Something was definitely wrong when it was cold and they weren't blowing (and for all we know something is still wrong). Was/is it a mechanical issue or did they really run out of water? One scenario can be fixed...the other means Sugarbush is in for a tough season without a ton of natural snow.


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## benski (Nov 26, 2016)

If Lincoln Peak is out of water becouse of the drought i would guess other mountains will seen have the same problem, though someone mentioned they made a little snow on lower Downspout so I assume the problem was mechanical running out of water should be easy to predict.


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## Griswold (Nov 26, 2016)

Is it really possible that they could be out of water?  I find that pretty hard to believe.  I see an article online from about a month ago which says sugarbush reports a full reservoir. Unless that wasn't true how could that have changed so drastically in a month where we have seen a decent amount of melting snow?  Maybe I just don't want to believe it...


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 26, 2016)

Anyone in the area who can take a run by the pond for some intel?  We'll know either tonight or tomorrow as temps in teens would certainly warrant snow making.  Also, why are they claiming they have 8 runs open, but only 4 really accessible to the public?


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## Tin (Nov 26, 2016)

Griswold said:


> Is it really possible that they could be out of water?  I find that pretty hard to believe.  I see an article online from about a month ago which says sugarbush reports a full reservoir. Unless that wasn't true how could that have changed so drastically in a month where we have seen a decent amount of melting snow?  Maybe I just don't want to believe it...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Smith said Sugarbush fills the 25-million-gallon reservoir it uses to make snow on Lincoln Peak with water from the Mad River, and that the resort can draw as much water as it needs as long as the river is flowing at or above median level.

http://freshiesmag.com/2016/03/01/the-guns-of-salvation/


It's possible they are out, they went through 230 million gallons last year and 25 million gallons for a place that size is not that big. To compare, Ragged's new pond holds 24 million gallons. The two big cutters this week will provide lots of rain, if they are not blowing Friday/next weekend, it is not lack of water.


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## Tin (Nov 26, 2016)

sugarbushskier said:


> Also, why are they claiming they have 8 runs open, but only 4 really accessible to the public?



The trails at Mt Ellen are for race training.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 26, 2016)

Here's my take.  I just skied their the past couple of days.  I think this weekend was a soft opening for them.  I find it hard to believe that they are the only mountain in New England that ran out of water.  I believe that was a rumor being spread to take the heat off them not opening more terrain IE top to Bottom.  With a small crowd today Deathspout(though skied good) was still pretty crowded.  If you added a top to bottom runout off of the bottom of Deathspout you would have put more congestion on that trail than it could take.  
They were setting up Top to Bottom this afternoon and they were also setting up Ripcord.  The bottom of Spillsville up the mountain had a lot of snow.  Once they blow on Ripcord, spillsville should open up front the blow off from Ripcord.  Those trails do not need much more to open up.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

Well the good news is that they are officially mentioning restarting snowmaking as soon as temps allow in their snow report. So if there was a problem (which I believe there had to be as there was no way they would have wasted a 24-48 hour window of excellent snowmaking temps a few days ago) it is now fixed. A mechanical issue that has been fixed would be much more reassuring to hear rather than the draining the pond rumor.

As for whether they could have drained the pond, with a 25 million gallon pond that is easily possible if they couldn't refill from the Mad River. I've seen that 25 million figure referenced in pretty much every article I could find on Sugarbush snow-making regarding the size of the pond by the Mad River. On the history page of their own website though, they mention a 63 million gallon pond during the ASC era (http://www.sugarbush.com/discover/sugarbush-history/). Is that 63 million figure on their website wrong? Or is that combining other ponds (such as the Mt Ellen one...which I always was under the impression was relatively small)?


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## Plowboy (Nov 26, 2016)

"Is that 63 million figure on their website wrong?"
They only dug the the pond about halfway


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## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> "Is that 63 million figure on their website wrong?"
> They only dug the the pond about halfway



But I thought they had since dredged it to the permitted depth?


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## benski (Nov 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Well the good news is that they are officially mentioning restarting snowmaking as soon as temps allow in their snow report. So if there was a problem (which I believe there had to be as there was no way they would have wasted a 24-48 hour window of excellent snowmaking temps a few days ago) it is now fixed. A mechanical issue that has been fixed would be much more reassuring to hear rather than the draining the pond rumor.
> 
> As for whether they could have drained the pond, with a 25 million gallon pond that is easily possible if they couldn't refill from the Mad River. I've seen that 25 million figure referenced in pretty much every article I could find on Sugarbush snow-making regarding the size of the pond by the Mad River. On the history page of their own website though, they mention a 63 million gallon pond during the ASC era (http://www.sugarbush.com/discover/sugarbush-history/). Is that 63 million figure on their website wrong? Or is that combining other ponds (such as the Mt Ellen one...which I always was under the impression was relatively small)?



It could be the other way around. 5x seems like a huge difrence in capacity.


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## Plowboy (Nov 26, 2016)

"But I thought they had since dredged it to the permitted depth?"

It was dredged after Irene, but as far as I know it was only to the original depth. There is no way that much fill or gravel came out of that pond to dig it to the permitted depth.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 26, 2016)

Tin said:


> The trails at Mt Ellen are for race training.



Well yeah but there's no indication it'll be available to the public anytime soon.  

Win must be freaking out that they are the only VT resort open not skiing to the base, so why not throw those trails closed to the public on the report to boost trail count?

Pass prices are too high for them not to be T2B right now.  I love the place but every season I don't get why everyone else (at least the resorts that want to play in the big leagues) can ski T2B but we'll be downloading for two weeks.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

I agree that there's absolutely no point in having the ME trails listed on the report when they are for race training only. ME doesn't open for several more weeks.

Interesting info that the pond was never dredged to the permitted depth. That sounds like something that would be worthwhile to do at some point unless there's some good reason not to (other than cost).

I do however think the T2B complaints are a bit exaggerated. Last year SB was T2B on 12/1, Killington was T2B 11/25, Okemo 11/28, Stowe 11/25. That's less than a week difference when comparing to resorts that all have substantially more powerful snowmaking systems. Both the two years prior to that SB was T2B on opening day. Let's see what happens at SB over the next couple days.

All that said, I'd still love to hear what was the real reason for them being unable to make snow for a couple days this week at LP. If it was mechanical, so be it. That could be hard to prevent and predict. If it was instead lack of water in the pond, then that sounds like a perfect reason to make dredging the pond to the permitted depth a priority when they talk about capital improvements in the next budget.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I agree that there's absolutely no point in having the ME trails listed on the report when they are for race training only. ME doesn't open for several more weeks.
> 
> Interesting info that the pond was never dredged to the permitted depth. That sounds like something that would be worthwhile to do at some point unless there's some good reason not to (other than cost).
> 
> ...




Win, hasn't come out and said it was a water issue.  I think that is a loose rumor that they want to say it was.  Basically the first week that they are open, they are only open top half of the mountian unless they have enough natural snow to open TTB.  They probably have a schedule at the beginning of the season where/when they make snow.  As a said in an earlier post it looks like Ripcord, and TTB is what they are working on next.  They bet that there goal to open is the four trails that they opened, they hit that goal and stopped making snow.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I do however think the T2B complaints are a bit exaggerated. Last year SB was T2B on 12/1, Killington was T2B 11/25, Okemo 11/28, Stowe 11/25. That's less than a week difference when comparing to resorts that all have substantially more powerful snowmaking systems. Both the two years prior to that SB was T2B on opening day. Let's see what happens at SB over the next couple days.



Yes maybe they are exaggerated but let's look at it another way.  Early season pass rates at Killington and Okemo are $1,269 and $1,339 respectively.  Sugarbush's is $1,399 and Stowe's is $1,609 per a Ski Vermont article (these are adult passes prior to the first deadline).  

Sugarbush wants to charge what the big boys charge (they are actually second to Stowe I believe in adult season pass prices in VT) but the other three have significantly better snowmaking infrastructure.  Stowe's prices are ridiculous but then you see they have 2.5 ways down 2,000 vertical feet and apparently a bunch of beginner terrain.  

I guess it's not as much the T2B but just how far behind they always seem to be with snowmaking but its not as cheap as it used to be to get a pass there.  

*Full disclosure I lucked out from the pass war (posted this in the MRV forum that crashed) and got a Stowe pass for $599 and a Sugarbush pass for $499 because I'm 33 years old and was planning on getting a Bush adult pass until Stowe's pricing came out and caused the Bush to drop their rates.  I got both for less than the price of one adult pass..  I haven't used either yet but will be next week.  Not going to lie, if the Bush isn't T2B by Wednesday I'll be using  my Stowe pass first.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 26, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Win, hasn't come out and said it was a water issue.  I think that is a loose rumor that they want to say it was.  Basically the first week that they are open, they are only open top half of the mountian unless they have enough natural snow to open TTB.  They probably have a schedule at the beginning of the season where/when they make snow.  As a said in an earlier post it looks like Ripcord, and TTB is what they are working on next.  They bet that there goal to open is the four trails that they opened, they hit that goal and stopped making snow.



Number 1 rule in late November in the East when you have temperatures is to keep making snow.  There's no way they they just said "we hit our goal, let's stop while we have good temperatures."

If they could get T2B they would do anything to get there...there must've been a problem.  No way they voluntarily stopped making snow because they only wanted to have the upper 4 trails open.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Yes maybe they are exaggerated but let's look at it another way.  Early season pass rates at Killington and Okemo are $1,269 and $1,339 respectively.  Sugarbush's is $1,399 and Stowe's is $1,609 per a Ski Vermont article (these are adult passes prior to the first deadline).



I don't know where that article got that $1399 number for SB from, but I can flat out say it is wrong. The early pass price was $1149 for a full All Mountain 7 Adult pass. That's the price I paid (plus taxes) before SB refunded me money after announcing the early 30s pass.



> Sugarbush wants to charge what the big boys charge (they are actually second to Stowe I believe in adult season pass prices in VT) but the other three have significantly better snowmaking infrastructure.  Stowe's prices are ridiculous but then you see they have 2.5 ways down 2,000 vertical feet and apparently a bunch of beginner terrain.
> 
> I guess it's not as much the T2B but just how far behind they always seem to be with snowmaking but its not as cheap as it used to be to get a pass there.



There's no doubt others have better snowmaking infrastructure, but that's not something that you can simply change easily. SB has continued to make incremental improvements every year and barring any unforeseen issues (like whatever happened this year) usually does a pretty good job keeping up considering they are competing against others with far better systems.



sugarbushskier9 said:


> Number 1 rule in late November in the East when you have temperatures is to keep making snow.  There's no way they they just said "we hit our goal, let's stop while we have good temperatures."
> 
> If they could get T2B they would do anything to get there...there must've been a problem.  No way they voluntarily stopped making snow because they only wanted to have the upper 4 trails open.



I completely agree with this. _Something_ happened that forced them to shut down. There's no other way around it. You don't have overnight temps in the teens and not blow snow in the early season somewhere on the mountain. It is a shame the MRV forum is down/ These discussions might be a lot less speculation and rumor spreading if it was up as we might know exactly what happened.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 26, 2016)

I skied there Thursday thru Saturday.  The guns were on the runs from HG to Coffee but weren't hooked up.  Today they were hooked up.  If they had intentions of Blowing down to the base why didn't they when they were resurfacing the four trails and why weren't the guns hooked up.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> There's no doubt others have better snowmaking infrastructure, but that's not something that you can simply change easily. SB has continued to make incremental improvements every year and barring any unforeseen issues (like whatever happened this year) usually does a pretty good job keeping up considering they are competing against others with far better systems.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with this. _Something_ happened that forced them to shut down. There's no other way around it. You don't have overnight temps in the teens and not blow snow in the early season somewhere on the mountain. It is a shame the MRV forum is down/ These discussions might be a lot less speculation and rumor spreading if it was up as we might know exactly what happened.



So Sugarbush's snowmaking has been a perennial issue for a long time now.  Obviously now five years out from being a passholder there my POV is from the 30,000 foot level, but back in 2009 and 2010 or so we had the same conversations--why aren't they moving faster?  Why aren't they blowing when others are?  Why do they have so many issues?  And yeah, sure a few new HKDs here and there are nice, but what happened to being bullish and opening ASAP?  Granted weather is an issue, but they would always find a way.  

It's clear that since shifting back to Lincoln Peak that weather impacts them more because it is lower elevation.  It's also clear that since 2008 or so the focus has shifted to the four-season resort and making the whole thing better instead of focusing on skiing so much.  I also know for a fact that they don't have the same caliber of mountain ops that they used to in the past.  

And let's be real here:  their competition and "perceived competition" (Stowe) is now WAY ahead of them in terms of snowmaking.  At one time they would compete with Killington on early and late season.  Now they want to compete with Stowe in price and "quality", but you can't compare their limping snowmaking system with Stowe's and it pains me to say that because I love Sugarbush.  It seems that they are content with relying on natural snow, not having the biggest snowmaking system in the east, and hoping that they nail Christmas, MLK, and President's Week instead of extending the season.  

I think that they just don't have the cash to replace their lifts and their snowmaking.  They also are more risk averse when it comes to snowmaking--they don't want to lose the money when it all melts.  That's fine and I think that a lot of passholders appreciate that steady hand at the wheel instead of the risk of bankruptcies and ownership turnovers.  But when they want to talk about competing with Stowe and increasing their prices to more than everyone but Stowe it seems that the value is not wheat it used to be in terms of skiing.

And I love Sugarbush a lot.  Look who started this thread.  It was my home for many years.  But I will confess that had we stayed in Vermont we might have considered other options because it just had changed.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So Sugarbush's snowmaking has been a perennial issue for a long time now.  Obviously now five years out from being a passholder there my POV is from the 30,000 foot level, but back in 2009 and 2010 or so we had the same conversations--why aren't they moving faster?  Why aren't they blowing when others are?  Why do they have so many issues?  And yeah, sure a few new HKDs here and there are nice, but what happened to being bullish and opening ASAP?  Granted weather is an issue, but they would always find a way.



A few new HKDs here and there? I wouldn't consider over 500 new guns a few here and there. They can now max out on water using a fraction of the air that they used to use and air is not a limiting factor anymore. They've also been replacing pipe every year to enable them to get more water to different parts of the mountain instead of being forced to only max water when they spread it around to different areas. For example the new 10" pipe they put in on Spring Fling a couple years ago let's them completely light that trail up with nearly max water going to it from what I've heard.

What more do you think they should be doing to expand their snowmaking infrastructure? If the pond can be dug deeper, then that absolutely should be done. But that doesn't help get more water up the mountain, it only helps them avoid running out of water if the flow in the Mad River is low. To get more water up the mountain means completely replacing the pipe from the pond to the mountain with a larger diameter one. How expensive would that be to dig up and replace over 3 miles of pipe? Are there environmental restrictions that prevent them from drawing more water in the first place or is the pipe the only limiting factor?



> It's clear that since shifting back to Lincoln Peak that weather impacts them more because it is lower elevation.  It's also clear that since 2008 or so the focus has shifted to the four-season resort and making the whole thing better instead of focusing on skiing so much.  I also know for a fact that they don't have the same caliber of mountain ops that they used to in the past.
> 
> And let's be real here:  their competition and "perceived competition" (Stowe) is now WAY ahead of them in terms of snowmaking.  At one time they would compete with Killington on early and late season.  Now they want to compete with Stowe in price and "quality", but you can't compare their limping snowmaking system with Stowe's and it pains me to say that because I love Sugarbush.  It seems that they are content with relying on natural snow, not having the biggest snowmaking system in the east, and hoping that they nail Christmas, MLK, and President's Week instead of extending the season.


Sugarbush has been open into the beginning of May 5 of the past 6 years. Has Stowe ever been open that late? Competing with K for early or late season is simply not financially responsible. K's snowmaking infrastructure was extremely built out many many years ago. Sugarbush will never get to that point nor would I expect them to. K has the late season market cornered and even if SB stayed open into June along with them you simply wouldn't see the people at SB. You're competing for a very limited number of people at that point and the demand simply doesn't warrant much more supply.



> I think that they just don't have the cash to replace their lifts and their snowmaking.  They also are more risk averse when it comes to snowmaking--they don't want to lose the money when it all melts.  That's fine and I think that a lot of passholders appreciate that steady hand at the wheel instead of the risk of bankruptcies and ownership turnovers.  But when they want to talk about competing with Stowe and increasing their prices to more than everyone but Stowe it seems that the value is not wheat it used to be in terms of skiing.



They've done substantial lift work in the past few years. We have a new Valley House Quad. HG was pretty much completely rebuilt (from an electrical and mechanical perspective). NRX was completely overhauled. Numerous other lifts had significant amount of mechanical and electrical work done (well beyond normal maintenance). What lifts should they still be replacing? I think with all the recent work over the past few years most of them have quite a bit of life left and spending money to replace lifts for the sake of replacing lifts seems irresponsible.

As for snowmaking, I'll again ask exactly what you think they should do? Pretend they have unlimited money but don't pretend that we can ignore all the environmental or logistical restrictions. What would you envision happening in that scenario? Is there a location they could build a secondary pond closer to the mountain if they wanted to? Please don't take this challenge the wrong way. I'm legitimately interested in what you think can be done. I've seen very noticeable improvements the past few years. Some of those improvements are unfortunately being overshadowed by weather problems or unforeseen issues (such as whatever happened this past week that we are all still speculating about).

In terms of value I still think they offer a great deal. For season passes they are significantly cheaper than Stowe and early purchase pricing on passes was very comparable to K. For my particular age bracket they were actually well over 50% cheaper than K for a season pass (although that just started this year and I think you can thank Stowe for that one with the new pass they started).



> And I love Sugarbush a lot.  Look who started this thread.  It was my home for many years.  But I will confess that had we stayed in Vermont we might have considered other options because it just had changed.



I sometimes wonder if you hear more about SB's problems just because more people post about them here. I know there have been times Stowe has had lifts down based on what I saw on their snow report yet nothing was ever said about it here. For SB if a lift is down 5 minutes it seems that everyone here knows about (obviously a slight exaggeration...).


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm a Stowe homer, but that's mainly for nostalgic reasons.  It was home from 95-2001 and then again in 04-05.  I still think they have the best combination of terrain and natural snowfall in the east, but all the improvements don't really favor what I'm looking for in a ski experience.  I still go every other year or so and all the shiny new stuff is very well done and a treat to experience. However, had they kept things the way they were when it was basically just a ski area with a limited amount of lodging down at Toll House and just average snowmaking, I think I'd prefer it over how exclusive the mountain (and town) have become.  Stowe (the ski area) was still quite raw in the late 90s.  

In my view, Sugarbush does a fine job. I think both the mountain and the valley have balanced growth well while still keeping things pretty low key.  They're right there with Jay for having the second longest season in the state. Mid-winter snowmaking in Northern VT really isn't as important as Southern VT or the rest of New England.  Smuggs gets by with limited snowmaking. Jay does too. Whatever the issue is causing a slow start, it likely won't matter in a few weeks. 

If VT were to become my primary ski destination again and I was looking for a home mountain, Sugarbush would probably be it.  I vastly prefer the terrain and vibe over Killington.  I prefer the value and longer season over Stowe. I love the expert terrain at Smuggs (maybe the best on map in the east), but when that terrain isn't skiing well the experience is kind of ho hum on very slow lifts.  Same could be said for Jay, but better lifts.  So, yeah, overall I'd say Sugarbush would be it.  Probably the second best overall ski experience in the state (or east for that matter) next to Stowe.   You have to pay big for the Stowe experience though and deal with many more crowds.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> A few new HKDs here and there? I wouldn't consider over 500 new guns a few here and there. They can now max out on water using a fraction of the air that they used to use and air is not a limiting factor anymore. They've also been replacing pipe every year to enable them to get more water to different parts of the mountain instead of being forced to only max water when they spread it around to different areas. For example the new 10" pipe they put in on Spring Fling a couple years ago let's them completely light that trail up with nearly max water going to it from what I've heard.
> 
> What more do you think they should be doing to expand their snowmaking infrastructure? If the pond can be dug deeper, then that absolutely should be done. But that doesn't help get more water up the mountain, it only helps them avoid running out of water if the flow in the Mad River is low. To get more water up the mountain means completely replacing the pipe from the pond to the mountain with a larger diameter one. How expensive would that be to dig up and replace over 3 miles of pipe? Are there environmental restrictions that prevent them from drawing more water in the first place or is the pipe the only limiting factor?
> 
> ...



Those are some good points.  I also wonder if things are going OK and we only hear the bad things.  

500 HKD guns are impressive.  I think a fair number of them were paid for by EfficiencyVermont.  But they are not doing any good right now.  Instead we are hearing about other snowmaking issues.  

The pipe work, including the replacement of the feeder line from the Valley to LP is impressive, but unfortunately it is maintenance.  

I'm pretty sure that the Pond was dredged to permitted depths in 2002 or so.  That said, there was a drought and they are really limited as to what they can draw.  

For me the ONE thing that would make a difference for early season would be to return to ME.  No brainer in my mind for the skiing product.  But the real estate is on the other side.  For me that is the decision with which I most disagree but I get it.  It also goes to my point about real estate and the four season resort aspect.  

Other than ME, I have always been skeptical about air capacity since they built Clay Brook.  I just always remember seeing lots of compressors on LP side as you rode up and they seemed to never have issues making snow when needed. 

So what would I do?  Move early season to Mount Ellen.  That would cost little if anything.

As to lifts--VH is a big plus.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 26, 2016)

Sugarbush is the best mountain (terrain) that often sucks to go to. No comparison to Stowe. It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of reality. You can go to Stowe and pay the high price and expect zero BS after that. Sugarbush you roll the dice.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Those are some good points.  I also wonder if things are going OK and we only hear the bad things.
> 
> 500 HKD guns are impressive.  I think a fair number of them were paid for by EfficiencyVermont.  But they are not doing any good right now.  Instead we are hearing about other snowmaking issues.
> 
> The pipe work, including the replacement of the feeder line from the Valley to LP is impressive, but unfortunately it is maintenance.


Some is maintenance, some I would say goes much further than that. If they replace a pipe with a bigger one that has more capacity, is that still considered maintenance? I would argue no, that's an upgrade. And that is exactly what they did on Spring Fling and several other trails.



> I'm pretty sure that the Pond was dredged to permitted depths in 2002 or so.  That said, there was a drought and they are really limited as to what they can draw.
> 
> For me the ONE thing that would make a difference for early season would be to return to ME.  No brainer in my mind for the skiing product.  But the real estate is on the other side.  For me that is the decision with which I most disagree but I get it.  It also goes to my point about real estate and the four season resort aspect.


Would a return to ME make that much difference early season? They wouldn't be T2B at ME right now either. The snowmaking capacity at ME is lower than LP. If ME was the early season option right now, you'd have Rim Rum->Elbow open (1 run). At LP they have Jester and Organgrinder, so 2 distinct upper mountain runs. ME would not have been able to open any earlier than LP did this year unless they were holding back on snowmaking but that doesn't appear to have been the case since ME started snowmaking the same time LP did.

I can see ME making more of a difference late season. With the Glen House and deck you have a great setup for late season. That said though, they've managed to keep LP open late season until May almost every year lately, so it is a bit hard to argue that they haven't been a late season player and that ME would have made a difference.



> Other than ME, I have always been skeptical about air capacity since they built Clay Brook.  I just always remember seeing lots of compressors on LP side as you rode up and they seemed to never have issues making snow when needed.



Air isn't an issue with the low e guns anymore though. They don't have extra compressors because they don't need them. They max out water and from what I heard aren't even running all the air compressors that they have, never-mind needing to rent any additional ones to keep up.



> So what would I do?  Move early season to Mount Ellen.  That would cost little if anything.
> 
> As to lifts--VH is a big plus.



Again, interesting idea, but I don't think ME offers as much of an advantage over LP as people think it does. Sure the base of the summit chair at ME is 500 feet higher than the base of the HG chair at LP, but at the same time the LP snowmaking system is more powerful (I want to say they have double the water capacity in terms of gallons per minute that they can move up the mountain at LP vs ME...but I can't recall the exact figures) and you get the potential for more diverse upper mountain runs at LP (and an extra 400 feet of vertical to ski when you're limited to the upper mountain).


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Sugarbush is the best mountain (terrain) that often sucks to go to. No comparison to Stowe. It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of reality. You can go to Stowe and pay the high price and expect zero BS after that. Sugarbush you roll the dice.



If this is directed at me, my comparison was of 90s Stowe.  It was quite raw then.  Outside of the Forerunner and Gondola, all the lifts were very old and unreliable at times. Snowmaking was limited. Lodges modest.

Smuggs, Jay and to a lesser extent Killington all have lift issues from time to time.  Wind holds, icing up of the lines, they all have it. Smuggs and Jay certainly have equal if not worst snowmaking issues to Bush. The mountains south of K I don't really consider part of the conversation.  Totally different product and market. 

Maybe the question is what do people want Sugarbush to become?  Win (with the proper resources) could turn it into Stowe, but you'd have to pay for it.  He could also aim to be like Killington as far as snowmaking commitment, but the mountain simply does not have the traffic/revenue to support that business model and likely never will.

To each their own, but I find much of the criticism of SB to be unfounded compared to all the competition except for Steaux.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe the question is what do people want Sugarbush to become?  Win (with the proper resources) could turn it into Stowe, but you'd have to pay for it.  He could also aim to be like Killington as far as snowmaking commitment, but the mountain simply does not have the traffic/revenue to support that business model and likely never will.



Right...I think Win and his team do a good job and have SB in just the right place. I would not want SB to turn into either Stowe or K. I like the more laid back vibe of SB and the MRV area in general just the way it is. The mountain itself is more crowded than in the past, so they must be doing something right.

Have they had their share of issues? Yes, but I think they've done an admirable job of addressing them. When we had all those lift issues several years ago, the following summer they did major overhauls of several of the lifts to address the issues. Then they did the VH lift replacement the following year. If they ignored these issues, then I'd be concerned.

The same thing goes for snowmaking. They keep making incremental improvements every year. If they did nothing, then I'd again be concerned. As for the latest issue with snowmaking, I'll reserve judgement until we find out exactly what happened.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If this is directed at me, my comparison was of 90s Stowe.  It was quite raw then.  Outside of the Forerunner and Gondola, all the lifts were very old and unreliable at times. Snowmaking was limited. Lodges modest.
> 
> Smuggs, Jay and to a lesser extent Killington all have lift issues from time to time.  Wind holds, icing up of the lines, they all have it. Smuggs and Jay certainly have equal if not worst snowmaking issues to Bush. The mountains south of K I don't really consider part of the conversation.  Totally different product and market.
> 
> ...



I'm a bit of a homer for both mountains though never could afford Stowe till their young 30s pass this season.  Growing up in Montpelier we went to Stowe sparingly but Sugarbush and MRG all the time.  

A couple things people forget...Sugarbush and Stowe in a few products are closer in price than some think. Stowe now has the Lamoille/Washington/Orleans County pass and the young 30s pass and although day tickets are robbery, they ARE working the other direction to become slightly more affordable.  I think they know skier visits in the state are flat and are just trying to take business from elsewhere.  Spruce has been built up but Mansfield is the same base lodge and bar it  was 60 years ago.  The terrain is the same it always was with better and more reliable lifts and superior snowmaking.  That's why I was stoked to be able to go to both Stowe and Bush this season.  Best of both worlds.  

Win wants it to become Stowe in a revenue sense and mountain ops sense...you don't think he wants the snowmaking, grooming and lift efficiency?  Hes done a great job of building up the base area without getting too ritzy but Win is a Wall Street guy in the end...he's not looking to run Smuggs.  He wants an upscale polished place/product that's also laid back which is a hard one to accomplish.  Like if Smuggs and Stowe mated and you got the offspring lol.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 27, 2016)

Anyway on the plus side Sugarbush is listing 5 snowmaking trails in the last 24 hours so they are back at it.

7" in last 48 and 10" last 72 hours.  All good news.


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## Hawk (Nov 27, 2016)

They are having a few small hiccups to start.  There is in fact an issue with water due to the draught.  The snow making pond can not fill when the water drops below a certain flow in the river.  Several mountain folks that I know said they were very concerned about that but did not confirm they were out.  Also there was talk from a good source that they had a pump issue and that Is why they did not continue snowmaking into this weekend.  Of course the temps also went up but Wednesday and Thursday it was plenty cold and they did not blow snow. The 3" they got on Thursday night helped a lot.  My opinion is that something stopped them so I would believe that the water issues are true.  Either way the snow and coverage over the last 3 days has been fine.  Good start to the season.


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## Plowboy (Nov 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm pretty sure that the Pond was dredged to permitted depths in 2002 or so.  That said, there was a drought and they are really limited as to what they can draw.


The pond was/has NOT dredged to permitted depth!!
1998 GMNF Findings states the pond was only dug to 40% of the primary pond volume(25MG)
https://books.google.com/books?id=M...=onepage&q=sugarbush snow making pond&f=false

Sugarbush article from 9/7/11 states  "Now, the task will be to de-water the pond, and remove the accumulated material so that the pond can be refilled to pre-flood depth."
http://www.sugarbush.com/discover/press-releases/excellent-progress-made-in-repairing-sugarbush-snowmaking-pond/


Valley Reporter article from 9/29/11 states "Under normal conditions the pond holds 25 million gallons of water."

http://valleyreporter.com/stories/1...elds-45000-cubic-yards-of-topsoil-plus-gravel

I have been doing excavating work in the Valley since 1988, I would have known that there was a huge amount of dump truck traffic in the Valley and would have known were all the fill or gravel went. As I can tell you where the fill went on the original dig and the post Irene dig!!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> The pond was/has NOT dredged to permitted depth!!
> 1998 GMNF Findings states the pond was only dug to 40% of the primary pond volume(25MG)
> https://books.google.com/books?id=M...=onepage&q=sugarbush snow making pond&f=false
> 
> ...



Yes, ASC did NOT dig it to permit depth. I was saying that Win did dig it deeper to what I thought was permit depth. Must be they dredged it but not to permitted depth.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If this is directed at me, my comparison was of 90s Stowe.
> 
> Maybe the question is what do people want Sugarbush to become?  Win (with the proper resources) could turn it into Stowe, but you'd have to pay for it.  He could also aim to be like Killington as far as snowmaking commitment, but the mountain simply does not have the traffic/revenue to support that business model and likely never will.
> 
> To each their own, but I find much of the criticism of SB to be unfounded compared to all the competition except for Steaux.



Not directed at you, I think I was mostly agreeing with your prior statement.

I only skied at Stowe once or twice in the 90s and don't really remember it. But as of now they do a fantastic job of being a luxury ski experience that does not get in the way of skiing. Actually the reliability, speedy lifts, sparse lift lines, good parking situation and all enhance it. These are all areas where Sugarbush does not excel, and to the point where it can impede the skiing experience.

I was just checking walk up prices and surprised to see Sugarbush at $97 and Stowe at $124. A complete rip off either way. But at least at Stowe you can see how your money is being spent.


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## Plowboy (Nov 27, 2016)

Burlington Free Press 11/7/16

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-45bac4d3ce-286323177


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> Burlington Free Press 11/7/16
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-45bac4d3ce-286323177



Stowe has 110 million gallons.  Wow.


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## hovercraft (Nov 27, 2016)

Let's face the facts, SB wants to play in the big league but doesn't want to pay the admission.  It's always something with them.  People say Stowe is expensive, if you buy a day ticket on line they are the same price as the bush.  On season pass costs you pay for what you get.  Stowe gives you value, bush gives you a roll of the dice at best.  No comparison.


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2016)

hovercraft said:


> Let's face the facts, SB wants to play in the big league but doesn't want to pay the admission.  It's always something with them.  *People say Stowe is expensive, if you buy a day ticket on line they are the same price as the bush.*  On season pass costs you pay for what you get.  Stowe gives you value, bush gives you a roll of the dice at best.  No comparison.



So you're comparing Stowe's online ticket price to SB's walk up rate? Why not compare apples to apples. SB offers discounts for buying tickets online as well. Stowe's Adult day ticket online prices are $92 (and they consider an adult anyone 13 and up for day ticket purposes). SB's Adult day ticket prices are $87 for weekend non-holiday, $89 for holiday, and as low as $61 for mid-week non-holiday.  And SB considers only people 19 and up as Adults for day tickets.

I have nothing against Stowe, but to say they are the same price as SB and that they give you value is stretching it a lot.

I don't get the "roll of the dice" comments for SB either. I'm there pretty much every weekend other than holidays and rarely wait in lines and rarely experience lift issues. Do lift issues happen? Sure, but all the major issues from several years ago were addressed and things have been pretty smooth since then. I think the reports of lift issues are greatly overblown. What other items at SB contribute to it being a "roll of the dice at best"?


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## Jully (Nov 27, 2016)

I've always viewed what you get at SB as primarily their variety. Stowe, even Killington a big mountain/vert perspective doesn't compare imo (though I'm positive others will disagree). The place also leaves more of what I want left natural, natural. It has less snowmaking and older lifts, but its selling point against K and Stowe hasn't ever huge snowmaking or perfect lifts and base facilities. Its a wilder feel still within a resort context they charge a premium that, not facade / replacement of Stowe or K.


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## ss20 (Nov 27, 2016)

I was wondering which mountain would absorb all of the Burke b!tching from last season :lol: 

Lot's of complaints leads to lot's of unconfirmed information.  No confirmed info from the mountain.  AZ rumor mill is cranking back up again!  :-?


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## hovercraft (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> So you're comparing Stowe's online ticket price to SB's walk up rate? Why not compare apples to apples. SB offers discounts for buying tickets online as well. Stowe's Adult day ticket online prices are $92 (and they consider an adult anyone 13 and up for day ticket purposes). SB's Adult day ticket prices are $87 for weekend non-holiday, $89 for holiday, and as low as $61 for mid-week non-holiday.  And SB considers only people 19 and up as Adults for day tickets.
> 
> I have nothing against Stowe, but to say they are the same price as SB and that they give you value is stretching it a lot.
> 
> I don't get the "roll of the dice" comments for SB either. I'm there pretty much every weekend other than holidays and rarely wait in lines and rarely experience lift issues. Do lift issues happen? Sure, but all the major issues from several years ago were addressed and things have been pretty smooth since then. I think the reports of lift issues are greatly overblown. What other items at SB contribute to it being a "roll of the dice at best"?



I was thinking that ticket prices within a few dollars were they same price. The roll of the dice comment is the weather.  I know it effects every mountain but with Stowe you have the added benefit that even if the weather hasn't cooperated  at least you have their snowmaking to count on.  They aren't shy about using it either.  For me the extra dollars you pay is having an insurance policy.  I love the terrain at the bush it's the infrastructure in place that doesn't work for me. In my opinion you get more value at Stowe then you do @ the bush


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Stowe has 110 million gallons.  Wow.



Yeah that was my reaction.  The 10-15 million or whatever they claim they put into the snowmaking system in the last 5 years seems to be paying off.  I mean just looking at the snow reports this morning and looking at a trail map, Stowe's making snow on like 3 top to bottom runs...all at once.  Plus little beginner crap.  That's like if Sugarbush was Downspout to the base area, Stiens, Snowball and Spring Fling along with beginner stuff or starting Gate House.  It's a lot of firepower and easy to see how their early season expansion occurs.

No matter...a 3-foot dump levels the playing field quickly once snowmaking becomes obsolete due to natural snow.  Let's be honest once it dumps we are all off the snowmaking runs anyway.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

hovercraft said:


> I was thinking that ticket prices within a few dollars were they same price. The roll of the dice comment is the weather.  I know it effects every mountain but with Stowe you have the added benefit that even if the weather hasn't cooperated  at least you have their snowmaking to count on.  They aren't shy about using it either.  For me the extra dollars you pay is having an insurance policy.  I love the terrain at the bush it's the infrastructure in place that doesn't work for me. In my opinion you get more value at Stowe then you do @ the bush



Weekend they are close in price, but to me "same" means "same" unless you add the word "almost" in there. (Yes, sorry, I'm quite literal with things like that). Mid-week though SB offers substantial savings over Stowe for tickets purchased online. SB is also substantially cheaper even on weekends for teenagers due to the difference in the age of what is considered an adult at the two resorts.

In terms of snow-making, SB has coverage on 70% of trails vs Stowe's 83%. I'm completely ok with SB not having more than 70% coverage as the trails they don't have snowmaking on are great natural trails that I wouldn't want to see snowmaking on. In terms of the extra cost at Stowe being insurance, I can see that for early season as a valid point simply because Stowe can make snow quicker and cover more trails sooner. But once you hit mid-season and SB has had a chance to hit all their trails with snowmaking, then I see the point as moot (even in a lean natural snow year). SB does a good job of covering their snow-making trails (albeit simply more slowly). SB doesn't exactly skimp out on snow-making on trails simply because they don't have a super-powerful system. They'll keep making snow as long as they need to in order to provide the coverage they want/need on their trails from what I've seen.


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain.  It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events.  This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow.  This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations.  For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down.  But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference.  I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.



cdskier said:


> Weekend they are close in price, but to me "same" means "same" unless you add the word "almost" in there. (Yes, sorry, I'm quite literal with things like that). Mid-week though SB offers substantial savings over Stowe for tickets purchased online. SB is also substantially cheaper even on weekends for teenagers due to the difference in the age of what is considered an adult at the two resorts.
> 
> In terms of snow-making, SB has coverage on 70% of trails vs Stowe's 83%. I'm completely ok with SB not having more than 70% coverage as the trails they don't have snowmaking on are great natural trails that I wouldn't want to see snowmaking on. In terms of the extra cost at Stowe being insurance, I can see that for early season as a valid point simply because Stowe can make snow quicker and cover more trails sooner. But once you hit mid-season and SB has had a chance to hit all their trails with snowmaking, then I see the point as moot (even in a lean natural snow year). SB does a good job of covering their snow-making trails (albeit simply more slowly). SB doesn't exactly skimp out on snow-making on trails simply because they don't have a super-powerful system. They'll keep making snow as long as they need to in order to provide the coverage they want/need on their trails from what I've seen.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain.  It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events.  This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow.  This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations.  For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down.  But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference.  I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.



That's my point.  As well as the fact that they just don't open as fast or as well as they used to.  HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold.

I think it is simply the fact that making snow is very expensive and SB is trying to reduce that cost and refocus from opening early, resurfacing, and maintaining to the snow to a blow it to open and be done.  At least that is what I saw and have only heard.  It's a moot point to me now.


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying.  Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it.  And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas.  So I am reduced to just praying for snow.


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## benski (Nov 28, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying.  Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it.  And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas.  So I am reduced to just praying for snow.



You seem right except water is now a limiting factor unless it is really warm so air is much less important than a couple of years ago.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I got mocked and chided on the MRV site because people thought I was negative about Win and all the work he as done. They just didn't understand what I was saying.  Win has done some great things but his philosophy on snowmaking will never allow Sugarbush to be great at it.  And as the debate goes on, the mountain has somehow convinced these people that Air pressure is not a needed commodity to be able to blow larger amounts of snow across greater areas.  So I am reduced to just praying for snow.



Technology has changed. Didn't Win offer you the opportunity to meet in person with the snowmaking ops team to address your concerns about air and the Low-E guns vs the old air hog guns?

On a positive note, they still have the guns going at the base at the moment. A bit surprising considering the base temp on the website is showing as 32.


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## Newpylong (Nov 28, 2016)

Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.


Also regarding the HKDs, the statement a bit up saying, "HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold" is patently false. If you have good air pressure they work exceptional in all conditions. The only piece of equipment that will work better in a mid to high 20 wet bulb is the K3000, and that is because they can use upwards of 500 CFM of air. You can turn a turd into a snowflake with that much compressed air.


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## El Bishop (Nov 28, 2016)

So was the issue this past week water or cost?  One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down and they couldn't pull water.  The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low?  Is that where they pull from?


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## Plowboy (Nov 28, 2016)

El Bishop said:


> So was the issue this past week water or cost?  One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down a
> 
> 
> nd they couldn't pull water.  The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low?  Is that where they pull from?View attachment 21098




Sorry but LMFAO Those are the sewage treatment ponds!!


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

El Bishop said:


> So was the issue this past week water or cost?  One of the green jackets told me that they couldn't blow because the river level was down and they couldn't pull water.  The attached pic is from the ponds behind the SHARC -- does that look low?  Is that where they pull from?View attachment 21098



The ponds behind the SHaRC are part of the Water Mountain Company water treatment system...so I really hope those aren't where they are pulling snowmaking water from 



Newpylong said:


> Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues either systemic or via dragging hoses too far then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.



I haven't heard of any pressure issues like that. What PSI did the old guns need? I do know last year it was mentioned that SB wasn't even using all the air compressors that they had since they didn't need them. So the capacity to push more air is there if needed and I would hope they are pushing the right amount to the guns so they run at optimal efficiency. The arguments some people have been making (and I can't remember if Hawk was one of them) was simply that the old guns make more snow than the new ones.


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## El Bishop (Nov 28, 2016)

HA!  Thanks.  Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

El Bishop said:


> HA!  Thanks.  Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!



There's an article about the water system (for the condos and properties on the mountain) in this year's Sugarbush Magazine.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> Yes, technology has changed. With improved mixing and nucleating techniques we can make more snow with less air. However, Hawk is 100% correct, the new Low E guns need exceptional air pressure to be effective. Anything less than 100 psi and they are worthless. If for some reason Sugarbush has pressure issues then they will be less effective than the air hogs, or worse.
> 
> 
> Also regarding the HKDs, the statement a bit up saying, "HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold" is patently false. If you have good air pressure they work exceptional in all conditions. The only piece of equipment that will work better in a mid to high 20 wet bulb is the K3000, and that is because they can use upwards of 500 CFM of air. You can turn a turd into a snowflake with that much compressed air.



I was comparing it to the K3000 and other ground-based guns they typically use in early season.  Those work better for the marginal temps and when they need to build base.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> Sorry but LMFAO Those are the sewage treatment ponds!!



Was just about to say that those are water treatment facilities :lol:


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I am with you except for the last part. Snow making is not just used for opening terrain.  It is also used to resurface trails after high use and rain events.  This is an extremely big thing at most areas that have to ability to make a lot of snow.  This is the whole "Snow quality" thing and in my opinion worth any extra cost that might come from these operations.  For some reason at Sugarbush people think that natural snow and grooming do the trick once the base is down.  But if you have skied a bit at places like Stowe, Sunday River and even some of the I-93 resorts, you would see the difference.  I live and ski at the bush and have no plans to leave but in no way does SB even come close to the same snow quality as these other places after a rain storm or big weekend unless it snows.



I will agree with you that they don't do a good job at resurfacing quickly. Is it a management decision or a system limitation though? I think they could do more resurfacing if they wanted to and am inclined to say it is a decision and not a limitation. A more powerful system (which people were advocating in favor of) wouldn't change that part if it is a decision to not do more resurfacing.



thetrailboss said:


> That's my point.  As well as the fact that they just don't open as fast or as well as they used to.  HKD guns are not good unless it is really cold.
> 
> I think it is simply the fact that making snow is very expensive and SB is trying to reduce that cost and refocus from opening early, resurfacing, and maintaining to the snow to a blow it to open and be done.  At least that is what I saw and have only heard.  It's a moot point to me now.



When are you comparing them to in terms of opening as fast or as well as they used to? In looking at opening dates for the past 15 years, it seems they've always opened right around the same date. I'm wondering if the strategy truly has changed as you're saying, or whether you're just mis-remembering them opening earlier than they really did. I'm tempted to pull up some old snow reports when I get a chance to see what they opened with over the past 10 years or so. But if you're talking about something they used to do 20 years ago, then I wouldn't have that data.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> When are you comparing them to in terms of opening as fast or as well as they used to? In looking at opening dates for the past 15 years, it seems they've always opened right around the same date. I'm wondering if the strategy truly has changed as you're saying, or whether you're just mis-remembering them opening earlier than they really did. I'm tempted to pull up some old snow reports when I get a chance to see what they opened with over the past 10 years or so. But if you're talking about something they used to do 20 years ago, then I wouldn't have that data.



I'm talking about them missing their normal opening (weekend before Thanksgiving) or having problems to prevent them from expanding the terrain.  The ones that come to mind are 2009 and 2010....one of them we lost almost a month.  Obviously warm temps screwed everyone, but other places did open and struggle to stay open.  I'm also talking about what happens after they open and how slow they were in getting things open.


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## mrvpilgrim (Nov 28, 2016)

Walked the mad path around the pond late Saturday with the dog. The pond was at the lowest level I have observed over the last 6-7 years. The level was at least four to five feet below the overflow spillway. Big change from early November when it seemed to only be a foot or two down on the spillway


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

You have to be careful when you listen to the mountain speak.  Yes the new guns use less air.  So what they did was blow the same one trail at a time, used the new guns and wa-la.  We use less air!   Yes they have the same couple of compressors so now they only have to run one at a time.  They also got rid of the extra compressors that they rented and cut rental and diesel cost.  But all the talk about better snow and better coverage and faster turnaround is smoke and mirrors.  It is pretty much close to the same since Summit took over.    They are slowly fixing the deferred maintenance issues but are not expanding the system so they can blow more area at once and faster.  That is what I have always said and my observations from skiing at the bush for 20 years.

I did not take Win up on the meeting because I did not want to get the corporate line.  So what I did was marched into the compressor building at night and chatted with the night crew.  They basically confirmed that they use less air now because of the new guns but blow basically the same area in one night.  The gun upgrade is a money savings upgrade and has little to do with quality and quantity.


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

Actually, to be 100% accurate, they have used the additional air pressure at times to use more guns when the weather permits.  So there has been some increase.  Not a large amount but some and only at certain times like when they are trying to expand.


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## Newpylong (Nov 28, 2016)

I think you're mixing up pressure and volume. You don't really add pressure, it runs at a consistent 125-150 psi. What you do is add more volume of air (CFM) when you need to.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm talking about them missing their normal opening (weekend before Thanksgiving) or having problems to prevent them from expanding the terrain.  The ones that come to mind are 2009 and 2010....one of them we lost almost a month.  Obviously warm temps screwed everyone, but other places did open and struggle to stay open.  I'm also talking about what happens after they open and how slow they were in getting things open.



I'm confused who you are comparing them to. I'm leaving K out of this, but SB's opening dates those 2 years were within a day or two of both Stowe and Okemo (using Okemo simply because they have a big snowmaking system). You can't hold SB to a different standard when everyone else was experiencing challenges due to weather those same years.

	Sugarbush	Stowe	Okemo
2009	12/06/09	12/06/09	12/05/09
2010	11/25/10	11/24/10	11/23/10


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## Plowboy (Nov 28, 2016)

El Bishop said:


> HA!  Thanks.  Glad that's not it but perhaps if it's yellow, let it mellow because those are down from a few weeks ago!



True story sort-of: 

''Killington: Where the Affluent Meet the Effluent."

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/06/us/vermont-dispute-grows-over-effluent-for-ski-snowmaking.html


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

Yes you are right,  Volume.  If you want to double or triple the guns you use you need more volume.  That would require additional capacity(more compressors)   But not this year because there is no water.  Which is certainly not Win's fault.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Hawk said:


> Actually, to be 100% accurate, they have used the additional air pressure at times to use more guns when the weather permits.  So there has been some increase.  Not a large amount but some and only at certain times like when they are trying to expand.



So in the past you would max out on air and that would be your limitation (or you would ideally rent enough air compressors to have enough air capacity to also max out your water flow). Now air is out of the equation as a limiting factor with the low-e guns. So they are maxing water with plenty of air capacity to spare. The only way to expand the snowmaking would be to increase water flow capacity. I've made this point before in this thread that that's what they would need to do...but unfortunately that isn't a quick or cheap fix and maybe not possible at all for environmental/logistical reasons. The system at ME for example is operated under a grandfathered permit and supposedly can't be expanded period.

Of course Low-E is intended to save money. In theory you take the OpEx you saved on power consumption and running/renting air compressors and either put that into extending the length of time you make snow or put it into the CapEx part of your future budgets to build out more infrastructure. Is SB doing either of these? That I have no idea. If they're not doing that with at least part of the savings, then I am fully behind you (or anyone else) that argues that they should be.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I'm confused who you are comparing them to. I'm leaving K out of this, but SB's opening dates those 2 years were within a day or two of both Stowe and Okemo (using Okemo simply because they have a big snowmaking system). You can't hold SB to a different standard when everyone else was experiencing challenges due to weather those same years.
> 
> Sugarbush	Stowe	Okemo
> 2009	12/06/09	12/06/09	12/05/09
> 2010	11/25/10	11/24/10	11/23/10



Killington, Sunday River, Stowe, Mount Snow, you name it.  And yes, I did take weather into consideration.  I recall Hawk's comments and initially being against him, but as time went on I understood his POV and began to agree with him.  Basically, SB has remained static with their operation and are trying to be more efficient and more risk averse.  That's what I saw.

And it was not just the opening date but expansion of terrain thereafter, recovery time, etc. that were slow.

I think that the fact is that they have done a great job with real estate and base development.  That took a lot of time and money in a bad economy.  They just have not done the same with the snowmaking or lift infrastructure.  Again, base areas and real estate did not matter to me--it was the skiing product that was my only focus.  Sure, they replaced Valley House, but other than that, their lifts are all quite old and many are 20 years old if not older.  As to snowmaking, I'd want to see more volume and better ability to recover quickly.  I just was not seeing it.  Maybe it's changed.  All it is now for me is a topic of discussion out of personal interest because I skied there for many years.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I will agree with you that they don't do a good job at resurfacing quickly. Is it a management decision or a system limitation though? I think they could do more resurfacing if they wanted to and am inclined to say it is a decision and not a limitation. A more powerful system (which people were advocating in favor of) wouldn't change that part if it is a decision to not do more resurfacing.



Isn't that part of the critique? That Win isn't using snowmaking to resurface in the way that other resorts in the area do? Obviously the rest of the critique is that the system can't support the same rapid expansion, but then if the people Hawk talked to at the plant were correct, then part of the expansion issue is operational too.


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## Hawk (Nov 28, 2016)

No,  on a year that we do not have a drought they have enough water capacity to use more guns.  That pipe coming up from the river that they replace is huge.  I think 18".  they have the capacity.  It their decision.



cdskier said:


> So in the past you would max out on air and that would be your limitation (or you would ideally rent enough air compressors to have enough air capacity to also max out your water flow). Now air is out of the equation as a limiting factor with the low


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I think you're mixing up pressure and volume. You don't really add pressure, it runs at a consistent 125-150 psi. What you do is add more volume of air (CFM) when you need to.



I know I've mixed that up before. That's good to know, thanks for clarifying.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 28, 2016)

Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont.  You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc.  Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?  
If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up Ripcord snowmaking on Saturday?


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Killington, Sunday River, Stowe, Mount Snow, you name it.  And yes, I did take weather into consideration.  I recall Hawk's comments and initially being against him, but as time went on I understood his POV and began to agree with him.  Basically, SB has remained static with their operation and are trying to be more efficient and more risk averse.  That's what I saw.
> 
> And it was not just the opening date but expansion of terrain thereafter, recovery time, etc. that were slow.



I already pointed out they were the same day as Stowe in 2009 and one day later in 2010. Mt Snow opened the day after SB in 2009 and the same day as SB in 2010. Using K or SR in the comparison isn't appropriate as both have massive snowmaking systems and are well known for targeting opening as early as possible regardless of whether it makes good financial sense to do so.

In terms of terrain expansion after, in 2009 SB and Stowe were neck and neck for % open until ME opened and then SB was way out ahead of Stowe. In 2010, Stowe had about twice the amount of terrain open as SB until ME opened for the season and then they jumped into the lead and held it. If ME and LP both opened on the same day, there would not be much disparity between SB and competition like Stowe (and Stowe is who I consider their closest comparative resort...).

As for the water capacity, I'm still going to disagree that they're constantly choosing not to max that out as I've heard differently that they do in fact max out water flow (although maybe not this year with the drought concerns, but last year they certainly were). If Hawk is right that it is an 18" diameter pipe coming up from the pond, then that equals a max flow of 10K GPM which would actually match exactly what I thought the capacity at LP was.


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## benski (Nov 28, 2016)

Just throwing this out here, nobody here has any idea which pipes can handle additional capacity. For all we know A lot of pipes need to be upgraded before a new pump is put in. I think Win mentioned last year that they now are being limited by on mountain water pipes.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 28, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont.  You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc.  Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?
> If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up steins snowmaking on Saturday?



Yeah this is the big thing and who knows the reason...it affects opening terrain expansion, and resurfacing through the season.  Why today is everyone making snow on like multiple top-to-bottom runs and SB is running 4 trails that doesn't even make up one top to bottom route?  

A caption on a Stowe photo of the day from this morning States they had 190 snow guns running last night and this morning.  I'd be surprised if SB had a third of that running this morning.  This is the stuff that matters when if it rained yesterday then temps dropped to 10F and everything is rock hard...other resorts in their competition just destroy them in the amount of resurfacing possible in a short period of time.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> Does anyone know what their snowmaking capacity is vs other resorts in Vermont.  You look at other ski areas snow report and they are listing how many guns they have making snow, i.e. killington, mount snow, okemo, stratton, Stowe, etc.  Is Sugarbush's snowmaking capacity at LP only four trails at a time?
> If not then why are are now only blowing on the lower mountain when they set up steins snowmaking on Saturday?



I would love to see the real numbers and stats from everywhere too. I know SB's numbers on water flow GPM were posted in the Ski MRV forum in the past. I don't know what exactly other resorts have to compare those numbers too though. In terms of number of guns, looking back through this thread to the discussions we had early season last year at one point showed SB running 193 guns combined between LP and ME. Another post from a different day said LP alone had close to 120 guns going simultaneously (I believe that was when they had guns running on Jester, Downspout, and OG). Comparing number of trails with snowmaking from one resort to another doesn't say much. Jester for example is a long trail. So comparing Jester to a short trail at another resort is pointless. I'd say number of guns and water flow are the more important numbers.



benski said:


> Just throwing this out here, nobody here has any idea which pipes can handle additional capacity. For all we know A lot of pipes need to be upgraded before a new pump is put in. I think Win mentioned last year that they now are being limited by on mountain water pipes.



He did say something about that as to why they couldn't blow on certain trails together with other trails. Too bad the skimrv forum is still down. Lots of good info in those posts from the past!


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the fact is that they have done a great job with real estate and base development.  That took a lot of time and money in a bad economy.  They just have not done the same with the snowmaking or lift infrastructure.  Again, base areas and real estate did not matter to me--it was the skiing product that was my only focus.  Sure, they replaced Valley House, but other than that, their lifts are all quite old and many are 20 years old if not older.  As to snowmaking, I'd want to see more volume and better ability to recover quickly.  I just was not seeing it.  Maybe it's changed.  All it is now for me is a topic of discussion out of personal interest because I skied there for many years.



Stowe has the big advantage by being owned by AIG and seeingly having endless money, as Stowe poured a ton of money into the base area village which does absolutely nothing for me.  As a skier I couldn't care less about the base area development at both Sugarbush or Stowe.  I walk or drive by it.  But that's where you generate capital...selling real estate. Sell a multi-million dollar home on the slopes and buy yourself a new chairlift with that money.  That's the thinking anyway.

Sugarbush now has the base development and they keep going with it, so hopefully down the line it pays off in new on-mountain infrastructure.  Stowe is like a trust fund kid though that does it right for their skiers.  They keep building in the base but at the same time dump millions into the on-hill stuff yearly it seems.  Their 15 million dollar snowmaking upgrade a couple seasons ago put them more in the Killington/Okemo/Sunday River level....replacing almost all pipe, lining what seems like every trail with tower guns, fan guns, pumps, compressors, etc.  Looking at the dates of construction, they've replaced or put in 10 of their 13 lifts since 2000.  Think about that, that's why people say their lifts never seem to break, they are all new as far as East Coast lifts go.  A lift gets old or has issues, they just rip it out and put in a new one.  Not in ten years, that next summer.  That's where AIG pocketbooks come in.  They seem to just ask Daddy for a check and it happens.


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## mbedle (Nov 28, 2016)

I recall that Stowe back in the 90's was far from perfect and actually was in pretty rough shape. I am pretty sure that AIG put their foot down and told them to get their shit together are else. I highly doubt that AIG/Chartis has an open pocketbook for Stowe to pull money from. They didn't back then, and I don't see why they would now.


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## El Bishop (Nov 28, 2016)

Switching back to the short-term and snow-making THIS year, from the data below, water in the river is low.  Does this not explain why they are running so few guns right now?

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?c...od=&begin_date=2016-10-01&end_date=2016-11-28


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Stowe has the big advantage by being owned by AIG and seeingly having endless money...
> 
> Their 15 million dollar snowmaking upgrade a couple seasons ago put them more in the Killington/Okemo/Sunday River level....replacing almost all pipe, lining what seems like every trail with tower guns, fan guns, pumps, compressors, etc.  Looking at the dates of construction, they've replaced or put in 10 of their 13 lifts since 2000.  Think about that, that's why people say their lifts never seem to break, they are all new as far as East Coast lifts go.  A lift gets old or has issues, they just rip it out and put in a new one.  Not in ten years, that next summer.  That's where AIG pocketbooks come in.  They seem to just ask Daddy for a check and it happens.



TB mentioned SB's lifts being "quite old". Yet 20 years for a properly maintained lift is not really that old. Look at K...only 2 of their lifts are younger than 20 years (and one of those 2 is at 19 years). For SB's lifts that are older, they've had major rebuilding done after they had the issues a few years ago to ensure they are now up to date. HG was rebuilt by SkyTrac and has all new mechanical and electrical components. NRX rebuilt by Dopplemayer and again has mostly new mechanical and electrical components. Super Bravo, Gate House, North Lynx, GMX, and Summit all also had significant electrical and/or mechanical replacements done in the past few years. Just because a lift is over 20 years old doesn't mean it should be replaced.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> TB mentioned SB's lifts being "quite old". Yet 20 years for a properly maintained lift is not really that old. Look at K...only 2 of their lifts are younger than 20 years (and one of those 2 is at 19 years). For SB's lifts that are older, they've had major rebuilding done after they had the issues a few years ago to ensure they are now up to date. HG was rebuilt by SkyTrac and has all new mechanical and electrical components. NRX rebuilt by Dopplemayer and again has mostly new mechanical and electrical components. Super Bravo, Gate House, North Lynx, GMX, and Summit all also had significant electrical and/or mechanical replacements done in the past few years. Just because a lift is over 20 years old doesn't mean it should be replaced.



True that Killington and Pico have very old lifts as well.  

For Sugarbush, here is the breakdown of their major lifts....going off of my memory:

Valley House Quad:  2015 (IIRC)
Super Bravo:  1995
Heaven's Gate:  1984
Castlerock:   2001
North Lynx:  1984 lift relocated in 1995
Gatehouse Express:  1995
Slidebrook:  1995
Village:  1960 something?  1970 something?

Mount Ellen:

Sunny-D:  1960's
GMX:  2002
NRX:  1991 lift relocated in 1994 (and screwed up, unscrewed, and working OK at last check)
Summit:  1991
Inverness:  1991

That's what I recall.  So the average age is between 21 and 25 years roughly.  Granted though A LOT of places are not upgrading their lifts.  Age and condition are not an issue if they are running....and the last few years most of them haven't had major issues.  During my tenure there NRX and Super Bravo had lots of issues.


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## tnt1234 (Nov 28, 2016)

Well, maybe it will snow....


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's what I recall.  So the average age is between 21 and 25 years roughly.  Granted though A LOT of places are not upgrading their lifts.  Age and condition are not an issue if they are running....and the last few years most of them haven't had major issues.  During my tenure there NRX and Super Bravo had lots of issues.



Yes, your memory is correct on the age of the lifts. But like I said for NRX, it was rebuilt 2 years ago so the year originally built isn't entirely relevant anymore. Sure the chairs and towers are older...but the "guts" are new (drivetrain, electrics, sensors, etc). Bravo wasn't completely rebuilt, but also had major replacements of key components within the past few years. They had serious issues and did an overhaul of most of their lifts the following summer to ensure (as much as one can at least) that they didn't continue to have problems. I don't know why we keep bringing up problems that have been fixed. If they hadn't done serious lift overhauls, then you'd have very valid arguments. But they did, so those arguments are getting tired. As someone that skies there most weekends, I've been quite happy with lift reliability since the overhauls have been completed. Of course the problem is that since they had so many issues 4 years ago or whatever it was, that now every time a lift is down for 5 minutes we over-analyze it and say "Oh boy, more lift issues at SB!" Do lifts still break once in a while or have wind holds? Sure. But even new lifts are no guarantee that you'd have 0 problems. A resort in the Catskills that I used to ski a lot put in a new lift maybe 10 years ago and had more issues with it the first year or two than the old lift had.

Sunny-D and Village are both ancient but they also aren't key lifts. If I was in charge of the budget I wouldn't be making their replacement a priority either. I would however be making dredging that snow-making pond to full permitted depth a priority though. That is a mistake to have not done already just in case you ever did have water supply/drought issues. Maybe there is a valid reason for not having done it, but otherwise I have a hard time excusing that one.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

While agree that the overhauls make many of complaints/worries irrelevant, there was talk last summer about how overhauls aren't enough at some point. Specifically talking about HSQs we don't really know what the lifespan these lifts are and while there may not be problems now, the decline is almost certainly going to linear.

Its not an immediate problem, but that is my concern when it comes to discussions about lift age, especially HSQs. Bretton Woods, K, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, WV, and many others have workhorse HSQs installed in the early - mid 90s or earlier and their lifespan isn't really known. Its not a problem exclusive to Sugarbush at all, but when comparing it to Stowe (part of the reason I don't compare anything Stowe) or just talking about issues in general it comes up.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Yes, your memory is correct on the age of the lifts. But like I said for NRX, it was rebuilt 2 years ago so the year originally built isn't entirely relevant anymore. Sure the chairs and towers are older...but the "guts" are new (drivetrain, electrics, sensors, etc). Bravo wasn't completely rebuilt, but also had major replacements of key components within the past few years. They had serious issues and did an overhaul of most of their lifts the following summer to ensure (as much as one can at least) that they didn't continue to have problems. I don't know why we keep bringing up problems that have been fixed. If they hadn't done serious lift overhauls, then you'd have very valid arguments. But they did, so those arguments are getting tired. As someone that skies there most weekends, I've been quite happy with lift reliability since the overhauls have been completed. Of course the problem is that since they had so many issues 4 years ago or whatever it was, that now every time a lift is down for 5 minutes we over-analyze it and say "Oh boy, more lift issues at SB!" Do lifts still break once in a while or have wind holds? Sure. But even new lifts are no guarantee that you'd have 0 problems. A resort in the Catskills that I used to ski a lot put in a new lift maybe 10 years ago and had more issues with it the first year or two than the old lift had.
> 
> Sunny-D and Village are both ancient but they also aren't key lifts. If I was in charge of the budget I wouldn't be making their replacement a priority either. I would however be making dredging that snow-making pond to full permitted depth a priority though. That is a mistake to have not done already just in case you ever did have water supply/drought issues. Maybe there is a valid reason for not having done it, but otherwise I have a hard time excusing that one.



Interesting.   So no more cadence chain for NRX?  That was a huge issue that caused them problems.  Replacing that would be a HUGE improvement.

And as Jully said the problem is that the lifespan of a HSQ is just not known. And rebuilds do not always remedy all problems extend lifespan.  Just look at those Borvigs......


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.   So no more cadence chain for NRX?  That was a huge issue that caused them problems.  Replacing that would be a HUGE improvement.
> 
> And as Jully said the problem is that the lifespan of a HSQ is just not known. And rebuilds do not always remedy all problems extend lifespan.  Just look at those Borvigs......



Honestly I have no idea about whether the cadence chain was replaced on the NRX during the rebuild by Doppelmayr. I'd like to think any of the components that previously gave them issues were replaced.

And yes, while rebuilds do not necessarily fix everything and extend the life-span of a lift by another 20 years, they certainly can add substantial years to a lift at a significant cost savings vs a brand new lift. Just because we don't fully know the lifespan of a HSQ doesn't mean we should immediately jump to thinking about replacement when it hits 20. Under current leadership Sugarbush seems to be on good financial ground. That's important. Don't forget, it was a small group of private investors that put in millions of their own dollars into the resort. They have a very vested interest in keeping the resort stable without over-extending themselves and I would fully expect that they have a long term plan in mind on when they may need to start to consider replacing lifts that are a critical part of their infrastructure. Based on what I've seen the past couple years, they've made solid decisions with the lifts recently. I won't criticize them on that topic until there's an actual reason to do so. You don't see a ton of other areas rushing to replace all their HSQs once they hit 20 either. I'm going to believe that the people working on these lifts know more about the viability of the lift than you or I do and that management is listening to their input.


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## tnt1234 (Nov 28, 2016)

so, ok....will trails be open come new years?


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> so, ok....will trails be open come new years?



Assuming no major heat wave, sure!  How many is a different question. A lot can happen in a month (either good or bad).

At the moment they are blowing snow at the base of LP. The snow report made no mention of any snowmaking targeted for tonight so I'm guessing the temps dropped lower than they thought they would and they are taking advantage while they can.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 28, 2016)

It will be interesting if Win mentions the "water issue" in his weekly blog on sugarbush's website


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## WWF-VT (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Sunny-D and Village are both ancient but they also aren't key lifts. If I was in charge of the budget I wouldn't be making their replacement a priority either



The Sunny-D is a critical  lift for the park and access to beginner terrain at Mt Ellen and is on borrowed time.  I suspect that it is on the near term plan for major work or replacement.


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Well, maybe it will snow....



That is what they are banking on, it has bailed them out the past few years.


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## Plowboy (Nov 29, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> It will be interesting if Win mentions the "water issue" in his weekly blog on sugarbush's website


https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins-word/opening-weekend-operating-plans-and-snowmaking/


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins-word/opening-weekend-operating-plans-and-snowmaking/



Just came here to post that...here's the main part for people that don't want to click the link:



> While we have been making snow continuously at Mount Ellen, we have been a bit cautious with our water at Lincoln Peak.  The State of Vermont mandates that we only divert water from the Mad River into our snowmaking pond when the river is flowing at or above the February Median Flow, which is 42.9 cubic feet per second (CFS). The purpose of maintaining the river flow at or above the February Median Flow is to protect habitat for fish and other aquatic organisms.  At times this fall, the flow has been low as the summer drought dropped the ground water levels below normal.  Usually we do not wish for rain, but the forthcoming rain this week will be just what is needed to raise the ground water level, get the Mad River flowing, and allow us to continue to replenish our pond.  As temperatures fall Thursday night, our snow guns on both mountains will be firing again, and hopefully augmented by the natural snow in the forecast.



Also of note is that they've pumped a combined 40 million gallons so far this season between snow-making at LP and ME.


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## JimG. (Nov 29, 2016)

Hard core trout heads at it again. Same in the Cats even worse because the NYC reservoirs are in that area.

DEP and DEC keep a tight leash on flow rates.


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2016)

Yikes, a cold and dry winter would be a big problem.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Just came here to post that...here's the main part for people that don't want to click the link:
> 
> 
> 
> Also of note is that they've pumped a combined 40 million gallons so far this season between snow-making at LP and ME.



Another illustration as to why ME is better for early season operations.  But that war was lost in 2007.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Another illustration as to why ME is better for early season operations.  But that war was lost in 2007.



How so? I can't remember exact numbers, but I seem to recall that ME's water flow capacity was about half of what LP's was. So ME has been able to keep pumping, but at a lower rate. That doesn't mean they've made more snow at ME. (One post I found on another forum from a couple years ago suggested LP was 4K GPM and ME was 2-2.5K GPM capacity for pumping water). I thought the numbers were higher though from what I saw posted in the Ski MRV forum at one point, but unfortunately that site is still down.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2016)

cdskier said:


> How so? I can't remember exact numbers, but I seem to recall that ME's water flow capacity was about half of what LP's was. So ME has been able to keep pumping, but at a lower rate. That doesn't mean they've made more snow at ME. (One post I found on another forum from a couple years ago suggested LP was 4K GPM and ME was 2-2.5K GPM capacity for pumping water). I thought the numbers were higher though from what I saw posted in the Ski MRV forum at one point, but unfortunately that site is still down.



Elevation and exposure are HUGE factors for snow preservation. It is also a better downloading set-up.  Finally, wider trails to handle more people.  It, again, was designed in 1964 to have late season skiing and a self-contained higher base camp.  It was refined in 1991 or so to have early and late season skiing.  Only issue: no real estate at the base.  That 2 mile drive is so terrible I guess :roll:

I remember when the decision to move late and early season ops to LP that someone placed a realtor's sign at the base of Mount Ellen as a joke.    

Yes, I am a Mount Ellen homer.  :lol:


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 29, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I recall that Stowe back in the 90's was far from perfect and actually was in pretty rough shape.* I am pretty sure that AIG put their foot down and told them to get their shit together are else.* I highly doubt that AIG/Chartis has an open pocketbook for Stowe to pull money from. They didn't back then, and I don't see why they would now.



Or else what?  I think you'd be surprised from what I've read.  There was a Ski Magazine article by Joe Cutts a while back about how AIG just wrote Stowe a check each year in the 90's to keep the place open, but now it actually turns a profit because of all the money AIG pumped into the resort.  Stowe itself was not financing this, AIG was.  What likely happened was that AIG didn't given an ultimatum, but instead said, ok, WE NEED to put some money into this place to make it viable.  And they jumped in with both feet.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Elevation and exposure are HUGE factors for snow preservation. It is also a better downloading set-up.  Finally, wider trails to handle more people.  It, again, was designed in 1964 to have late season skiing and a self-contained higher base camp.  It was refined in 1991 or so to have early and late season skiing.  Only issue: no real estate at the base.  That 2 mile drive is so terrible I guess :roll:



Wider trails can handle more people...but at the same time that means they need more snow to open them. And if the system is half as powerful at ME as the one at LP, that's not a good thing for early season. 

If we play the hypothetical "what if" game, let's compare what we would have had on opening day this year.

LP: 2 distinct trails offering 1500 feet of vertical including both a blue and a black (Jester and Organgrinder)
Or
ME: 1 blue trail offering 1000 feet of vertical (Rim Run->Elbow). I believe Lower Rim run would have been ready a few days later for 1.5 blue cruising runs...

Keep in mind that they didn't spend any time blowing on Inverness yet for GMVS. So GMVS is now using those ME upper mountain trails until they get Inverness going.

I'll agree that the "setup" with the lodge, deck, and lifts is better at ME for early/late season. But the rest of the infrastructure isn't and I'd personally rather ski a Jester/OG combo with Ripcord often not far behind compared to any of the summit run snow-making trail combinations at ME that you could offer early season.

Don't get me wrong, I love ME mid-season to avoid the crowds and ski the fun natural trails like Hammerhead, Tumbler, Bravo, Exterminator, and even something like Semi-Tough. Early season though I think LP offers a chance for better terrain variety at the summit to choose from.


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2016)

ME is fed from a flowing brook that as long as the water fills the pump vault then they can pump water.  There is also a pond at the bottom of inverness that adds water capacity.  The LP pond can only be filled when the flow is above a certain level so there is a risk of running out of water, which thanks to Win confirming they are very concerned about.  The early season set up is much better at ME.  It is much less acreage to open Rim Run, Elbow, Looking Good and then put FIS in if temps allow.  Also remember ME still uses at lot of the old ratnik and SR7 guns that make better snow in marginal temps.


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Wider trails can handle more people...but at the same time that means they need more snow to open them. And if the system is half as powerful at ME as the one at LP, that's not a good thing for early season.
> 
> If we play the hypothetical "what if" game, let's compare what we would have had on opening day this year.
> 
> ...



There are pro's and con's to both. 

But lets be real here - 2 Distinct trails at LP? Not the case. How can you write off the utter shit show that Downspout is on a busy day?

The flip side is until FIS is open ME has Upper Rim Run as the choke point (though Downspout it is NOT).

So what is better, Rim into 2 trails (lower RR and Elbow) or UJ and OG into one trail of DS? 

Then there's elevation, where ME beats LP hands down with everything above 3,000'.

But then LP wins on vertical.......

And then there's snowmaking capacity where LP wins (in non-drought years at least)...

And of course a key factor is that they can get TTB at LP quicker than at ME due to both capacity and acreage.

A tie breaker might be that Spillsville will open on natural before Black Diamond, and Ripcord before FIS??

And it they did revert to ME then everyone (though not me) would complain about a dated base lodge, less attractive bar, no high end restaurant, and the brutal commute from the lodging at LP!!!

But in the end its LP and I see no path to ME being the early/late option short of a sale.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

slatham said:


> There are pro's and con's to both.
> But lets be real here - 2 Distinct trails at LP? Not the case. How can you write off the utter shit show that Downspout is on a busy day?
> .



Yes, you outlined all the pros and cons well. 

Admittedly most of my early season skiing tends to be mid-week, so a crowded DS is rarely a concern. Even so, DS from the end of OG is really not terribly long, which is why I'll still stick by my 2 distinct trails comment in Jester and OG. In distinct I'm also referring to the fact that they are completely different style trails. Conversely even if ME had Elbow and Lower Rim Run as options, they are both relatively similar (wide open cruisers).

For me it is still the Jester/OG into DS combo that I'd rather ski over a Rim Run to Elbow or Lower Rim Run combo. The amenities at the mountain have 0 impact on my preference as well. I'm rarely in the lodge and don't have a problem with either bar. At ME, the Glen House supposedly was given a more "upscale" makeover this off-season. Not sure how I feel about that as I didn't have a problem with the way it was before.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

Quickly back to snow-making for a minute, all my article reading/searching today seems to trend towards the following numbers for water pumping capacity...

Sugarbush LP - 4K GPM
Sugarbush ME - 2-2.5K GPM
Stowe - 7K GPM
K - 12K GPM

So Sugarbush combined is close to Stowe's new capacity after their upgrades, but LP alone is only a bit more than half of what Stowe now has. And of course the water reservoir issue is a concern this year. At 4K GPM you can empty a 25 million gallon pond in just over 4 days of straight snow-making if no water was flowing into it. That seems to be a risky buffer... The full 63M gallon design originally permitted would have given about 11 days of straight snow-making ability needed to drain it.


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## Plowboy (Nov 29, 2016)

The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM  

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false



At last check (many years ago) there was room for one more pump at the pond and 5 more pumps at CB-1.  It is lower pressure from the pond to CB-1 ~250 psi for volume, then leaves CB-1 close to 1,000 psi for the hill.  I doubt they will dredge the pond as that would be a huge project and expense.  To us the expense would be justified but I don't recall them having this type of water shortage this early in the year.  It normally comes late January-February when they don't need to make as much snow.  On the bright side at least it is 33 and raining so hopefully not much melt.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> The Final Environmental Impact Statement from 1998 puts the pump at the Kingsbury pond at 5000 GPM
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=M...arbush snow making pond pump capacity&f=false



That was one of the documents I found and I almost put 4-5K in my post for LP. Only reason I left it at 4 was that I found several google cached versions of threads from the Ski MRV forum over the past few years that kept using the 4K figure (I think one of the posts was even from win). Maybe the pump from the pond runs at 5K but it is down to 4K by the time it comes out of CB-1 for some reason? Or maybe that 5K pump was replaced with a smaller one for some reason since 1998?


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## machski (Nov 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I was comparing it to the K3000 and other ground-based guns they typically use in early season.  Those work better for the marginal temps and when they need to build base.


Come up to Sunday River, most of the early season terrain is made with HKD's and occasionally SR7s supplement.  Of course, SR does have one of the highest PSI air systems out there so that could explain why they don't struggle with warm conditions and the HKD's.


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 30, 2016)

Hard to keep high pressure at SB with all that old, leaky pipe from the ASC days still serving as the backbone of the system.


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## Hawk (Nov 30, 2016)

Yes Stowe has 7K GPM Max but I was told that they do not max that out on most days and they can blow up to 4 runs at one time top to bottom.  Pretty powerful stuff.  Sunday river can blow 6 runs T to B at one time.  Even better.  All I would like to see is 2 Runs T to B at SB and I would be happy.

Also 90+% of the time the SB pond has a flow into it that replenishes the water at good rate so your calculation should include some kind of refilling variable to give a true sense of how fast the pond actually empties.



cdskier said:


> Quickly back to snow-making for a minute, all my article reading/searching today seems to trend towards the following numbers for water pumping capacity...
> 
> Sugarbush LP - 4K GPM
> Sugarbush ME - 2-2.5K GPM
> ...


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 30, 2016)

Except  a ttb run at Stowe is way longer than a ttb at SR at least vertical wise.


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## Hawk (Nov 30, 2016)

You have a point as I would bet the Stowe trails may be a bit longer.  But the SR trails are certainly wider so I bet in the long run the amount of snow needed is the same.  The real number that counts is the amount of guns they can run.  I have no idea what those number are.



SIKSKIER said:


> Except  a ttb run at Stowe is way longer than a ttb at SR at least vertical wise.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2016)

Not sure on total guns at Stowe, but SR claims a pumping capacity of 8100 GPM and over 300 guns simultaneously.

http://www.sundayriver.com/winter/snowmaking

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

Hawk said:


> Also 90+% of the time the SB pond has a flow into it that replenishes the water at good rate so your calculation should include some kind of refilling variable to give a true sense of how fast the pond actually empties.



Agreed, I was presenting worst-case scenario (as in a major drought).



Hawk said:


> You have a point as I would bet the Stowe trails may be a bit longer.  But the SR trails are certainly wider so I bet in the long run the amount of snow needed is the same.  The real number that counts is the amount of guns they can run.  I have no idea what those number are.



The number varies greatly depending on temps though. Ironically you use more guns at higher temps and less at lower...because at lower temps you can pump more GPM through each gun. SB can do 125 guns roughly at LP when at the 30 GPM setting but at colder temps if you up the GPM to 50 per gun you're now maxing at 76 guns. Those were the numbers win previously provided. HKD spec sheets show they can go at even higher GPMs, but you'd need super-cold temps that maybe we don't usually have.



deadheadskier said:


> Not sure on total guns at Stowe, but SR claims a pumping capacity of 8100 GPM and over 300 guns simultaneously.



300 guns at what temp and settings though? I think GPM is the more important measure rather than simultaneous gun count due to the great variation in guns depending on which gun, what settings, what temps, etc.


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## hovercraft (Nov 30, 2016)

I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm.  SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails?  Or is something else in play as well?


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## benski (Nov 30, 2016)

hovercraft said:


> I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm.  SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails?  Or is something else in play as well?



Sugarbush keeps grooming to a minimum in warm weather to preserve snow.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

Grooming when snow is that warm and wet is generally speaking not a great idea. Traditionally when weather like this happens when SB has more open they will groom a couple beginner routes and leave it at that. With what is open right now they probably figure since they are targeting advanced skiers only, they can help preserve the snow as much as possible by not grooming at all. Stowe on the other hand is advertising that they have skiing available for all ability levels, so most likely to avoid discouraging or disappointing the beginners and intermediates opted to do grooming.


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## Hawk (Nov 30, 2016)

If you do the math it is 27 gpm.  I skied there for years and actual worked there after college.  I will say this about SR.  After a rain storm they would open up the system full blast and over night there would be silky Gun Powder a foot deep on 3 or 4 trails.  That was 15-20 years ago and at a much lower elevation than Sugarbush. No stats or statistics or higher math involved.  Just my experience there. Now with all the upgrades and new technology I would bet they can do double.  



cdskier said:


> 300 guns at what temp and settings though? I think GPM is the more important measure rather than simultaneous gun count due to the great variation in guns depending on which gun, what settings, what temps, etc.


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## Hawk (Nov 30, 2016)

Benski is right.  Grooming on the base we have now will compact the snow and cause more melting and once it freezes the end result will be a bomb proof surface that will be hard to break up.  There is also the concern that the base is still thin in many places and the groomers will expose dirt and rocks as they make their passes. 



benski said:


> Sugarbush keeps grooming to a minimum in warm weather to preserve snow.


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## hovercraft (Nov 30, 2016)

They have the spruce side for beginners.  If preserving snow is an issue then why do they groom all their trails. On the web site they only excluded two trails that were not groomed.  What do other mountains do?


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 30, 2016)

hovercraft said:


> I noticed that Stowe has reported grooming most of their trails the past couple of nights even though it was warm.  SB has not, is that just a function of having more snow on their trails?  Or is something else in play as well?



Today was my first day of the season at Stowe (I have the young 30s pass to both Stowe and SB) and I will say boy was it great they groomed last night.  The two trails they didn't groom were a little on the rugged side but did soften up as the day went on.  But I got there around 8:15am and those groomed trails were like butter.  

From what I've seen, Stowe goes for consistency but their latest snow report says their groomers will "make a game time decision" tonight but will have at least one groomed route down.  I mean they are a major ski resort so you probably need at least 1 route groomed to cater to the intermediates where Sugarbush is saying advanced ability levels only.

Also I will say, for all the complaints about Stowe's ritzy vibe...when you pull into the Mansfield lot there's nothing but an old base lodge from the 1950s and the base of several lifts.  I parked my car next to the snow surface, walked up a hill and was at the base of the lift within 15-20 seconds.  I really like how they've compartmentalized the base development across the road and left Mansfield alone...feels almost like Mount Ellen in that sense when you pull into the lot.  

And not having to download and riding one high-speed lift to their advertised 2000 vertical feet with multiple routes down...it was fairly impressive, not going to lie.  There gondola trail they made snow on looked very good too.  Wonder if they open that this weekend or not.  This should be an interesting winter for me to see where I gravitate to more given the mood I'm in at the time.  Iv'e never held 2 seasons psses before.

Hopefully if both mountains keep this $500 young 30s pass going I'll be able to do my pre-season skiing at Stowe where they seem to get stuff going quicker, and then do my late season skiing at Sugarbush.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 30, 2016)

hovercraft said:


> They have the spruce side for beginners.  If preserving snow is an issue then why do they groom all their trails. On the web site they only excluded two trails that were not groomed.  What do other mountains do?



Most scale back grooming when its warm but if you look at other resorts like Killington, Okemo, Stratton...everyone will at least do some grooming.  I think they probably just try to make the best possible surface every day.  When I got there this morning the report said it was 34F at the base.  That's not warm and the ungroomed trails were pretty crappy early on.  I can't imagine they melted a lot of snow grooming last night at barely above freezing temps.  

I had several times last year Sugarbush didn't groom to "preserve snow" only to have horrific snow conditions in the morning because it wasn't as warm as they expected or the rain washed it down to rutted and cupped hardpack.  I believe they delayed openings a couple times to get the cats up and do some grooming in those cases.

Its a crapshoot...proobably damned if you do and damned if you don't.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Nov 30, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Grooming when snow is that warm and wet is generally speaking not a great idea. Traditionally when weather like this happens when SB has more open they will groom a couple beginner routes and leave it at that. With what is open right now they probably figure since they are targeting advanced skiers only, they can help preserve the snow as much as possible by not grooming at all. Stowe on the other hand is advertising that they have skiing available for all ability levels, so most likely to avoid discouraging or disappointing the beginners and intermediates opted to do grooming.



I should've read your post before multi-posting.  What you said are my thoughts as well.  Stowe needs to have at least one decent surface to get intermediates down the mountain where as Sugarbush can just say, hey we told you it was experts only.  Save some labor and fuel dollars as well.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I had several times last year Sugarbush didn't groom to "preserve snow" only to have horrific snow conditions in the morning because it wasn't as warm as they expected or the rain washed it down to rutted and cupped hardpack.  I believe they delayed openings a couple times to get the cats up and do some grooming in those cases.
> 
> Its a crapshoot...proobably damned if you do and damned if you don't.



It is a tough call and I remember days like that as well where I said "wtf were they thinking not grooming last night." The biggest challenge is they have to make the decision early so they know whether to tell the groomers to come to work or not. If the forecast doesn't match reality, you can certainly get unexpectedly solid conditions. Generally speaking I'm in favor of not grooming when it is warm and/or wet. Let the snow drain out before running a heavy piece of machinery over it that will compact it and turn it into ice that you'll never recover from once it re-freezes. If you let it drain first and re-freeze by itself before grooming, then you get a much better surface in the future.


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## skiMEbike (Nov 30, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Also I will say, for all the complaints about Stowe's ritzy vibe...when you pull into the Mansfield lot there's nothing but an old base lodge from the 1950s and the base of several lifts.  I parked my car next to the snow surface, walked up a hill and was at the base of the lift within 15-20 seconds.  I really like how they've compartmentalized the base development across the road and left Mansfield alone...feels almost like Mount Ellen in that sense when you pull into the lot.
> 
> And not having to download and riding one high-speed lift to their advertised 2000 vertical feet with multiple routes down...it was fairly impressive, not going to lie.



Love Stowe!!   Don't get to go there that often, but couldn't agree more on the above two points....Even though they appear to cater/target the "ritz", it never feels that way on the hill.   The Fourrunner Quad IMO is one of the best in New England.   One of my best 3 days of skiing in New England was at Stowe in 2009 after 40 inches of snow, MidWeek, everything WFO!!!....Ahhhhhh


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## hovercraft (Nov 30, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Also I will say, for all the complaints about Stowe's ritzy vibe...when you pull into the Mansfield lot there's nothing but an old base lodge from the 1950s and the base of several lifts.  I parked my car next to the snow surface, walked up a hill and was at the base of the lift within 15-20 seconds.  I really like how they've compartmentalized the base development across the road and left Mansfield alone...feels almost like Mount Ellen in that sense when you pull into the lot.
> 
> And not having to download and riding one high-speed lift to their advertised 2000 vertical feet with multiple routes down...it was fairly impressive, not going to lie.  There gondola trail they made snow on looked very good too.  Wonder if they open that this weekend or not.  This should be an interesting winter for me to see where I gravitate to more given the mood I'm in at the time.  Iv'e never held 2 seasons psses before.
> 
> Hopefully if both mountains keep this $500 young 30s pass going I'll be able to do my pre-season skiing at Stowe where they seem to get stuff going quicker, and then do my late season skiing at Sugarbush.



I had passes to both mountains last year.  I went to Sugarbush for two days when they first opened and didn't go back until Stowe closed.  When there isn't natural snow there really isn't any comparison.  When there is snow both mountains are fun.  With saying that there is just something magical to me about getting on that high speed quad and in 6 minutes or less you are at the top of the mountain with lots of options on how you are going to ride your way down. Also the Gondola is no slouch of a lift either.  Stowe does not feel ritzy to me.  The Mansfield side has an old school feel and when you want to feel like you are out west you're an over easy ride to the spruce side which has some excellent natural snow trails besides the beginner trails.  Overall, it's really a fun diverse mountain that is well kept when it comes to the riders experience.  It will be interesting to see where you gravitate to.


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## hovercraft (Nov 30, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I had several times last year Sugarbush didn't groom to "preserve snow" only to have horrific snow conditions in the morning because it wasn't as warm as they expected or the rain washed it down to rutted and cupped hardpack.  I believe they delayed openings a couple times to get the cats up and do some grooming in those cases.
> 
> Its a crapshoot...proobably damned if you do and damned if you don't.



That was the experience as well.  There were a few times I went in the morning to ride with some friends who have passes there and the trails were a mess.  I left sugarbush went over to Stowe and it was a completely different experience.  I know it's a crapshoot but if you are going to error I think it should be in the favor of grooming.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2016)

I personally like Sugarbush better than Stowe.  Ya I complain at the beginning of each year with their sluggish start for a major resort.  But once they get going it's the best mountain in New England.  With everyone comparing Sugarbush to Stowe, its just a different Clientele. For the Glitz and Glamour go to Stowe. For more of a laid back approach with go to the Mad River Valley.  
I like the trail layout much better at Sugarbush.  Where most New England resorts are laid out in horizontal pods, Sugarbush is laid out vertical Pods.  More like a ski area out west would be set up.  Castlerock vs. the Front four at Sugarbush, I think most people would go with Castlerock.  Length of season, Sugarbush is normally one of the last to stay open in the east.  Back country skiing, Stowe/Smuggs probably have everyone beat in the east, but I wouldn't discount Slide brook.


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## slatham (Nov 30, 2016)

I think Hovercraft's main point was when _there isn't natural snow_ Stowe is the better option. In this case many of the true and unique assets of Sugarbush - Paradise, Spills, Moonshine, Twist, Black Diamond, Hammerhead, Tumbler, Bravo and of course the entirety of CastleRock (not to mention the Slide Brook Quad) - are not options and thus make Stowe a pretty easy choice. Just like, IMHO, when there is ample natural, the opposite is true. So let it snow....


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

slatham said:


> I think Hovercraft's main point was when _there isn't natural snow_ Stowe is the better option. In this case many of the true and unique assets of Sugarbush - Paradise, Spills, Moonshine, Twist, Black Diamond, Hammerhead, Tumbler, Bravo and of course the entirety of CastleRock (not to mention the Slide Brook Quad) - are not options and thus make Stowe a pretty easy choice. Just like, IMHO, when there is ample natural, the opposite is true. So let it snow....



I guess it depends what you want to ski. Without natural snow, many of Stowe's best trails wouldn't be open either. Sure Stowe has more of their trails covered with snow-making and can expand quicker and get more terrain open without natural, but that still doesn't help their best terrain... Even with last year's lack of snow I still managed to ski a good number of the natural trails at SB that you mentioned.

Hopefully we get plenty of natural snow this year so we don't need to continue to have these discussions


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2016)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

About ten years ago or so, Stowe and Sugarbush were pretty comparable.  But now Stowe is WAY ahead in terms of the skiing product and have really set themselves apart.  Pains me to say that, in terms of ski product, Sugarbush has remained relatively static.  Win has done a good job, but I think they are just limited in terms of money in comparison.  

Then again Stowe's pass price has gone up a lot while Sugarbush, at last check, had not gone up that much relatively speaking.  The last season I was there it was $1,149 I think for a full pass at SB.  


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> About ten years ago or so, Stowe and Sugarbush were pretty comparable.  But now Stowe is WAY ahead in terms of the skiing product and have really set themselves apart.  Pains me to say that, in terms of ski product, Sugarbush has remained relatively static.  Win has done a good job, but I think they are just limited in terms of money in comparison.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



I would agree that Stowe has set themselves apart from Sugarbush, but I wouldn't say it's better or worse.  It just depends what you are looking for in a ski resort.  The village at Stowe is incredible, very trendy.  Sugarbush has a more laid back feel. again it's what you are looking for.  I think Sugarbush is better in the sense that the lift system really spreads the people across the mountain.  Stowe everything is funneled back to the bottom.  Stowe the powder gets skied out inbounds the day of the storm.  You could go a couple days after a storm and still ski some powder at Ellen(i.e. lower FIS).  
I think another place that sets Sugarbush apart from Stowe is Sugarbush is more family friendly.  The value for a family with the terrain that they offer is why I'm sold of Sugarbush.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> I would agree that Stowe has set themselves apart from Sugarbush, but I wouldn't say it's better or worse.  It just depends what you are looking for in a ski resort.  The village at Stowe is incredible, very trendy.  Sugarbush has a more laid back feel. again it's what you are looking for.  I think Sugarbush is better in the sense that the lift system really spreads the people across the mountain.  Stowe everything is funneled back to the bottom.  Stowe the powder gets skied out inbounds the day of the storm.  You could go a couple days after a storm and still ski some powder at Ellen(i.e. lower FIS).
> I think another place that sets Sugarbush apart from Stowe is Sugarbush is more family friendly.  The value for a family with the terrain that they offer is why I'm sold of Sugarbush.



True....assuming that they have the terrain open.  


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2016)

And, again, I am a Sugarbush North homer.  It is a great mountain with good terrain and lift layout.  Never a crowd.  But I will admit that I have been pretty damn impressed with my ski days at Stowe...and it has been a while.  


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 30, 2016)

IMO Sugarbush should lose the pretense of even trying to compete on a top ritzy level and go au-naturale with minimal snowmaking (which I would argue is more or less what they do anyway), and lower ticket prices a bit.

They already have a policy of opening trails with thin cover and keeping them open late into the season. This along with the "ski woods whenever you want" are their best policies and should define their ski experience.

It is a gnarly mountain terrain-wise and they usually get blessed with natural snow, but when it comes to being top-tier in other aspects, perhaps they should secede that territory to others.

I go there for the terrain, plain and simple, and too often lately I've been unable to ski it or have gotten fewer runs in than is worse the drive due to their weak attempts at infrastructure. Why not just lower their ticket price and be honest.


Mt Ellen is a different story btw I have zero complaints there.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> About ten years ago or so, Stowe and Sugarbush were pretty comparable.  But now Stowe is WAY ahead in terms of the skiing product and have really set themselves apart.  Pains me to say that, in terms of ski product, Sugarbush has remained relatively static.  Win has done a good job, but I think they are just limited in terms of money in comparison.
> 
> Then again Stowe's pass price has gone up a lot while Sugarbush, at last check, had not gone up that much relatively speaking.  The last season I was there it was $1,149 I think for a full pass at SB.


If you buy a full pass at the early rate, it was $1149 this year. And yes, they certainly have less money than Stowe. Sugarbush has a handful of private individuals that financed it. Stowe has a giant corporation behind them. Granted I'm sure they aren't given carte blanche to spend whatever they want either.



nhskier1969 said:


> I would agree that Stowe has set themselves apart from Sugarbush, but I wouldn't say it's better or worse.  It just depends what you are looking for in a ski resort.  The village at Stowe is incredible, very trendy.  Sugarbush has a more laid back feel. again it's what you are looking for.  I think Sugarbush is better in the sense that the lift system really spreads the people across the mountain.  Stowe everything is funneled back to the bottom.  Stowe the powder gets skied out inbounds the day of the storm.  You could go a couple days after a storm and still ski some powder at Ellen(i.e. lower FIS).
> I think another place that sets Sugarbush apart from Stowe is Sugarbush is more family friendly.  The value for a family with the terrain that they offer is why I'm sold of Sugarbush.



In the past I've been blasted for saying I liked Sugarbush's lift system with more of a "pod" setup than Stowe's T2B every run setup. I completely agree with you though. I like having the option of whether to go back to the bottom or not.



bdfreetuna said:


> IMO Sugarbush should lose the pretense of even trying to compete on a top ritzy level and go au-naturale with minimal snowmaking (which I would argue is more or less what they do anyway), and lower ticket prices a bit.



Yup, Sugarbush used over 235 million gallons of water last year for snowmaking. Sure sounds pretty minimal to me.  I'd also argue that they aren't trying to compete on a "top ritzy level". I think they do a good job of marketing themselves as a "true skier's mountain with great terrain" for lack of a better way to put it.



> They already have a policy of opening trails with thin cover and keeping them open late into the season. This along with the "ski woods whenever you want" are their best policies and should define their ski experience.
> 
> It is a gnarly mountain terrain-wise and they usually get blessed with natural snow, but when it comes to being top-tier in other aspects, perhaps they should secede that territory to others.
> 
> I go there for the terrain, plain and simple, and too often lately I've been unable to ski it or have gotten fewer runs in than is worse the drive due to their weak attempts at infrastructure. Why not just lower their ticket price and be honest.



I had about 30 days in at SB last year and with the exception of December or days with bad weather really didn't have any problems getting in the vertical that I wanted to. Not sure what type of infrastructure issues you experienced, but based on my experience they are the exception rather than the rule.

The 2 years prior to that I had about 40 days each at SB and again see very few days where I had low vertical totals.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Why not just lower their ticket price and be honest.



Just a guess, but I would assume it's because they feel they have the product priced at a level that's most profitable for them. 

Let's be honest.  They've got 5 high speed quads.  They have to operate 9 lifts, two base areas and provide ski patrol and staffing to operate all that at minimum when fully operational.  It takes a lot of revenue to do all that. You could reduce snowmaking and save some operating costs, but the price could never be workable dropping to say a Jay/Smuggs level.  The decision to do that would be based on increasing volume considerably.  That would result in all of that terrain skiing with less snowmaking having much poorer conditions, which ultimately would drive those volume gains away.


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## Newpylong (Dec 1, 2016)

There isn't a place I rather be in the East than back up in Waitsfield skiing the Bush every day. For all the faults yoi folks seem to be finding it is a special place and hard to beat.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 1, 2016)

One thing Stowe doesn't have is Castlerock and other narrower, windy classic trails.  I love higher intermediate to expert natural snow terrain like Moonshine/Twist/Mall and Castlerock, Paradise, etc.  Stowe's front four is incredible but they do have less in the way of winding natural snow trails.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 1, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> There isn't a place I rather be in the East than back up in Waitsfield skiing the Bush every day. For all the faults yoi folks seem to be finding it is a special place and hard to beat.



The MRV community and vibe is definitely it's largest selling point from a brand standpoint.  

You have to understand this is the Internet and most of us are people with too much time on our hands that love to talk "shop"...the good and the bad.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 1, 2016)

The temps were barely above freezing yesterday.Stowe isn't a lot different than most areas when it comes to grooming wet snow.Today:"Due to the mild overnight weather we limited grooming to only the Lord to North Slope route off of the FourRunner Quad. All other open terrain will be ungroomed today"


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## cdskier (Dec 1, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> There isn't a place I rather be in the East than back up in Waitsfield skiing the Bush every day. For all the faults yoi folks seem to be finding it is a special place and hard to beat.



Yes. +1. Never mind the fact that some of the people finding faults don't even ski the Bush that often (or at all anymore).



sugarbushskier9 said:


> One thing Stowe doesn't have is Castlerock and other narrower, windy classic trails.  I love higher intermediate to expert natural snow terrain like Moonshine/Twist/Mall and Castlerock, Paradise, etc.  Stowe's front four is incredible but they do have less in the way of winding natural snow trails.



And this +1 as well. And in a year with a lack of natural snow, only half of Stowe's front four are really in play. So the arguments that some are making of "well most of SB's good trails aren't open without natural snow" are again kind of pointless as many of Stowe's best trails face the same challenges.

Bottom line in my view is that arguing about who is better when you don't have natural snow is like arguing whether it is more fun to watch grass grow or paint dry.


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## Jully (Dec 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Just a guess, but I would assume it's because they feel they have the product priced at a level that's most profitable for them.
> 
> Let's be honest.  They've got 5 high speed quads.  They have to operate 9 lifts, two base areas and provide ski patrol and staffing to operate all that at minimum when fully operational.  It takes a lot of revenue to do all that. You could reduce snowmaking and save some operating costs, but the price could never be workable dropping to say a Jay/Smuggs level.  The decision to do that would be based on increasing volume considerably.  That would result in all of that terrain skiing with less snowmaking having much poorer conditions, which ultimately would drive those volume gains away.



That is a very good point that is overlooked here. Sugarbush is substantially cheaper for an adult pass than Stowe. It is not trying to be in their price league, IMO, it is just solidly a tier below that (and still more expensive than many areas, e.g. smuggs). They go for a slightly upscale resorty feel that still has a laid back, MRV vibe. I think it is a great product for those who want that and clearly there are families and individuals alike who want that kind of resorty + natural blend. I think reducing costs isn't in the cards for them unless they do something crazy like privatize Mt. Ellen.


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## gostan (Dec 1, 2016)

SkiMRV is finally up & running again


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 1, 2016)

As you can probably tell, I'm also a Sugarbush long timer and the one other thing that SB has going for it is Mad River Glen. The Valley has so much variety to offer that I'm willing to endure the short term lack of early season terrain or snow making that might not equal Stowe's. 

By the end of winter I'm usually plenty satisfied with my days on the slopes skiing incredible back and side country terrain at 3 distinctly different types of areas.

If i need an alternative there are lots of other areas in the northeast within a reasonable drive to pique my interest for a day or two.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 1, 2016)

If I did not have all the ties and were not located with such easy access to the Whites,the MRV would be my second home.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 1, 2016)

Can't imagine they will have any water problems judging by the amount of water flowing past Montpelier in the Winooski River.  Highest I've seen it in a long time.


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## teleo (Dec 1, 2016)

Today's snow report starts with "After a good snowmaking pond-filling rain last night"...

Can't believe the old joke about the rain filling the snowmaking ponds is actually real this year.

At least they have water for now.  Hope they put it to good use

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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 1, 2016)

Looks like its getting close to an inch of fresh at Heaven's Gate so far this evening.  I hate how it builds up in front of the ruler, so hard to tell whats actually falling but looks like it might be near an inch.


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## tumbler (Dec 1, 2016)

Looking at the guage in Moretown it looks like it went up just over 2' so they were able to open the high flow intake gate which fills the pond quickly.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 1, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Looking at the guage in Moretown it looks like it went up just over 2' so they were able to open the high flow intake gate which fills the pond quickly.



Awesome news!  looks like a solid couple inches now.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 2, 2016)

I asked Win this and hopefully he will respond, but man I got excited to see 9 trails open on the snow report today.  I figured with the new snowfall that something must've opened (maybe Spillsville, Ripcord, or whatever)!  More terrain!  Only to have my heart ripped out when I scrolled the trail listing to find 5 of the 9 trails are "open" at the mountain that "doesn't open" for another 3 weeks.  

I have no problem with trails that are reserved for race training during the season but when over 50% of your open trails are somewhere that doesn't open to the public for a couple weeks...ehhh.

Anyone ski today?  How was it?  Have to decide Stowe or Sugarbush tomorrow.


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## SnowRock (Dec 2, 2016)

Can speak to Stowe... a sloppy 6 up top today but was fun. Been pretty steady base building slop all day... looks like it's starting to change over at lower elevations as well. Today was a day where it would have been nice to have a mid mountain lift at Stowe but nonetheless good times.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I asked Win this and hopefully he will respond, but man I got excited to see 9 trails open on the snow report today.  I figured with the new snowfall that something must've opened (maybe Spillsville, Ripcord, or whatever)!  More terrain!  Only to have my heart ripped out when I scrolled the trail listing to find 5 of the 9 trails are "open" at the mountain that "doesn't open" for another 3 weeks.
> 
> I have no problem with trails that are reserved for race training during the season but when over 50% of your open trails are somewhere that doesn't open to the public for a couple weeks...ehhh.
> 
> Anyone ski today?  How was it?  Have to decide Stowe or Sugarbush tomorrow.



That is not the first time they have done things like this with their snow reporting.  Maybe it is a new reporter.


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## hovercraft (Dec 2, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I asked Win this and hopefully he will respond, but man I got excited to see 9 trails open on the snow report today.  I figured with the new snowfall that something must've opened (maybe Spillsville, Ripcord, or whatever)!  More terrain!  Only to have my heart ripped out when I scrolled the trail listing to find 5 of the 9 trails are "open" at the mountain that "doesn't open" for another 3 weeks.
> 
> I have no problem with trails that are reserved for race training during the season but when over 50% of your open trails are somewhere that doesn't open to the public for a couple weeks...ehhh.
> 
> Anyone ski today?  How was it?  Have to decide Stowe or Sugarbush tomorrow.



Went to Stowe today as well.  Snowrock was spot on.  I would go to Stowe tomorrow as it was still snowing there most of the day.  T2B beats Heaven's Gate in my book.  Plus more choices on trails.


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## slatham (Dec 2, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I asked Win this and hopefully he will respond, but man I got excited to see 9 trails open on the snow report today.  I figured with the new snowfall that something must've opened (maybe Spillsville, Ripcord, or whatever)!  More terrain!  Only to have my heart ripped out when I scrolled the trail listing to find 5 of the 9 trails are "open" at the mountain that "doesn't open" for another 3 weeks.
> 
> I have no problem with trails that are reserved for race training during the season but when over 50% of your open trails are somewhere that doesn't open to the public for a couple weeks...ehhh.
> 
> Anyone ski today?  How was it?  Have to decide Stowe or Sugarbush tomorrow.



That is BS and I surprised they did that. I would hope Win corrects the error.


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That is not the first time they have done things like this with their snow reporting.  Maybe it is a new reporter.



Part of me (the IT background side) wonders if the way their snow report is designed limits the options they have in terms of control over what is displayed on the report. For example maybe they simply mark the trail status on the backend reporting page and it automatically calculates the number of open trails. So if they mark a trail as "reserved for racing", the system automatically includes that in the open trail count.


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## Plowboy (Dec 2, 2016)

On Wednesday  the report was 8 trails on Thursday they added Panorama......WTF If the mountain is not open then those trails should not be on the trail count. They list 2 lifts not 4!!  Oh yea, it is snowing at the base of ME.


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 2, 2016)

Conditions today were better than anticipated and the new snow bonded well with the base.  Jester was good packed powder.  Grinder had some soft snow/decent bumps on skiers left but a bit more firm and scratchy in the center.  Downsprout was okay.  
They were making snow on Ripcord but I doubt they drop the rope on it tomorrow and Lower Rip has a long way to go.  Spills looked ready to go.   And oh yeah, snowing at a decent pace in the valley for past few hours.  
As for Stowe vs Bush tomorrow??  I would go to Stowe.


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2016)

Upslope cranking today


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## cdskier (Dec 3, 2016)

Almost 6" since this morning at the summit from the looks of things on the webcam. Line at Heaven's Gate looks pretty long (no surprise there though). Looks like they opened Ripcord, Spillsville, and the Paradise Extension (still don't quite understand why that trail is rated black). Guns are going all the way to the base too which is great to see. Looking forward to heading up in a couple days.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 3, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Upslope cranking today



Yeah trying to keep up with the totals on the Snow Cam but looked like someone walked on it or something today around 9:30am.  

Looked like 8" or so at 9:15am:



Then someone stomped it.



And it restarted at the 3" mark at 9:40am:


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## hovercraft (Dec 3, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Yeah trying to keep up with the totals on the Snow Cam but looked like someone walked on it or something today around 9:30am.
> 
> Looked like 8" or so at 9:15am:
> 
> ...



Hope you went to Stowe today morning session was epic.  Still snowing hard when I left.  Opening the gondola tomorrow while The Bush isn't even t2b.  Nothing else to say.............. Let it keep ing


----------



## tumbler (Dec 3, 2016)

The trail count including ME is misleading but I can kinda get why they do it. They could open those runs if they wanted so it proves they could have more open. I would shocked if they were not ttb tomorrow. My track of the stake looks like a foot so far today. Love upslope!!


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## benski (Dec 3, 2016)

tumbler said:


> The trail count including ME is misleading but I can kinda get why they do it. They could open those runs if they wanted so it proves they could have more open. I would shocked if they were not ttb tomorrow. My track of the stake looks like a foot so far today. Love upslope!!



Already announced that they will be ttb on facebook.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 5, 2016)

Paradise and Paradise woods were riding AMAZING on Sunday. It was actually better than any day last year and it is still early December! The number of trails open was irrelevant because I only rode Paradise and the surrounding woods for every run open to close. So much powder, will be back ASAP.


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2016)

Well they opened upper/lower birdland, Lower organgrinder, Upper/lower Domino and Murphys today.  The snow keeps coming and the trails keep opening.


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## Tin (Dec 5, 2016)

Hawk said:


> Well they opened upper/lower birdland, Lower organgrinder, Upper/lower Domino and Murphys today.  The snow keeps coming and the trails keep opening.




No signs of stopping. Im heading up tomorrow.


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## benski (Dec 5, 2016)

Now they are making snow on First Time. Its just a matter of time before Valley House and Gate House open. Then they have to at least check Castlerock and North Lynx. It sounds like by the weekend they will have Castlerock open for those willing to hike it.


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2016)

benski said:


> Now they are making snow on First Time. Its just a matter of time before Valley House and Gate House open. Then they have to at least check Castlerock and North Lynx. It sounds like by the weekend they will have Castlerock open for those willing to hike it.



I hope not on the CR side of things.  Keep it closed for a while and let the base solidify.   They open it earlier and earlier every year and it gets skied down to the dirt.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 5, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I hope not on the CR side of things.  Keep it closed for a while and let the base solidify.   They open it earlier and earlier every year and it gets skied down to the dirt.



Agreed. I hope they wait two weeks since that is when I am going up next. I want first tracks on Rumble!


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2016)

I think you are way late on that one.  Sorry.


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## benski (Dec 5, 2016)

I think opening Castlerock before any trails off Valley House is a first.


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## cdskier (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm surprised how many lower mountain trails they are opening on natural. Can't wait to get out tomorrow but will try to take it easy being my first day out.


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## mikec142 (Dec 6, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> There isn't a place I rather be in the East than back up in Waitsfield skiing the Bush every day. For all the faults yoi folks seem to be finding it is a special place and hard to beat.



Amen


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2016)

If what I skied today is any indication of how this season will go, then "wow" is all I can say. Half my runs today were on trails with only natural snow and not a scratch on my skis. Domino was my pick of the day. Best runs in probably a few years on that trail.

Some water bars on some of the natural runs need to fill in a bit more, but other than that they skied as if it was mid-winter.

Here's a few pics from my iPhone. Took a lot more with my regular camera but won't have access to them until I get home this weekend.



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## Hawk (Dec 6, 2016)

Did you make it over to the rock?  It was fantastic last weekend.  More snow on the way for Thursday and then this weekend again.  we are in the cycle.


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2016)

Didn't hike over. Didn't want to push it too much first day out. Still ended up pushing myself a lot more than I expected to as it all just looked too good to resist. I had my volkl ac50 hard pack skis out today that I usually use early season. Easily could have used my Nordica hell n backs instead.


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 6, 2016)

I wish I had skied Domino before my last run.  It was pretty damn good.  I did one run at Castle Rock, but I didn't have the right skis for the job, so I didn't do a repeat.  It was really great to ski on natural snow today!


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## Tin (Dec 6, 2016)

Hawk said:


> Did you make it over to the rock?  It was fantastic last weekend.  More snow on the way for Thursday and then this weekend again.  we are in the cycle.



Liftline today was probably one of the best runs of my life. Just fly off anything and don't worry about it. Top of the boot to knee deep blower stuff. Wish I had a GoPro for once.


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## jaybird (Dec 7, 2016)

cdskier said:


> If what I skied today is any indication of how this season will go, then "wow" is all I can say. Half my runs today were on trails with only natural snow and not a scratch on my skis. Domino was my pick of the day. Best runs in probably a few years on that trail.
> 
> Some water bars on some of the natural runs need to fill in a bit more, but other than that they skied as if it was mid
> 
> ...


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## dlague (Dec 7, 2016)

Things are looking great at SB.

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## shadyjay (Dec 7, 2016)

Great day today... my best run on Murphy's and Lower Birdland in years!  Same for Domino.  Mountain is skiing great right now.   Just watch those waterbars, especially those coming out of Lower Jester back onto Lower Downspout at the Castlerock cutoff.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 7, 2016)

Today was schaweeet!  Seemed like 2-3" filled in the cracks above the bottom of Heavens Gate and refreshed everything.  So much terrain open too.  Can't believe they were downloading just 4 days ago.  Love all the stuff on natural snow before the snowmaking gets to it.  I get why snowmaking is necessary but its so nice to ski stuff without a hardpack icy layer underneath.  Its nice even in areas that get scraped down its grass instead of ice.  I'd rather make a turn on some snow/grass mixture than that bulletproof glaze ice that often develops later in the season in skied off areas.


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## dlague (Dec 7, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Today was schaweeet!  Seemed like 2-3" filled in the cracks above the bottom of Heavens Gate and refreshed everything.  So much terrain open too.  Can't believe they were downloading just 4 days ago.  Love all the stuff on natural snow before the snowmaking gets to it.  I get why snowmaking is necessary but its so nice to ski stuff without a hardpack icy layer underneath.  Its nice even in areas that get scraped down its grass instead of ice.  I'd rather make a turn on some snow/grass mixture than that bulletproof glaze ice that often develops later in the season in skied off areas.


Good point on skiing snow on grass rather than snow on ice.  

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## cdskier (Dec 7, 2016)

jaybird said:


> Nice photos!
> Looks like Feb



Thanks!

And I completely agree with what others are saying about skiing some of these trails on natural before they are hit with snowmaking. Such an awesome experience!


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## WWF-VT (Dec 8, 2016)

Anyone skiing/riding on Friday, Dec 9th ?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I'd rather make a turn on some snow/grass mixture than that bulletproof glaze ice that often develops later in the season in skied off areas.



I refer to that as "Sugarbush Open"!!  They are definitely the most liberal place  have ever seen with opening of tails. I like it!


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## tumbler (Dec 8, 2016)

Wonder how the pond is doing?  River is back to level it was before the last liquid event.  Been on Ripcord for a loong time.  Looks like trying for snowball/fling.  Would think gatehouse soon for beginners.  Looking very cold for the weekend.


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## Plowboy (Dec 8, 2016)

Blowing Inverness, Straight Shot and bottom at ME


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## 180 (Dec 8, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Anyone skiing/riding on Friday, Dec 9th ?



thinking about it


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## cdskier (Dec 8, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I refer to that as "Sugarbush Open"!!  They are definitely the most liberal place  have ever seen with opening of tails. I like it!



And yet there's nothing I skied that's open that I would say shouldn't be open! As long as the trails are marked for advanced skiers only at this point, they are all definitely skiable. Love how aggressive patrol is at dropping ropes here!


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 8, 2016)

180 said:


> thinking about it



There are some decent natural bumps, but bring your rock skis to enjoy them to the fullest!


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## 180 (Dec 8, 2016)

Savemeasammy said:


> There are some decent natural bumps, but bring your rock skis to enjoy them to the fullest!
> 
> can't find a partner, too far for alone drive


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 8, 2016)

180 said:


> can't find a partner, too far for alone drive



Bummer.  Is Hunter bumping up anywhere?


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## dlague (Dec 8, 2016)

cdskier said:


> And yet there's nothing I skied that's open that I would say shouldn't be open! As long as the trails are marked for advanced skiers only at this point, they are all definitely skiable. Love how aggressive patrol is at dropping ropes here!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Last they were very aggressive, then again they had to be to open terrain.  May they felt it work and decided to keep it up!

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## 180 (Dec 8, 2016)

5 more inches on the webcam


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## WWF-VT (Dec 9, 2016)

It's currently snowing , 16 degrees with some wind here at the base of Mt Ellen.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 9, 2016)

Anyone know if the "issues" with the castlerock lift were solved over the summer? They didnt have it running much last season and I love those early morning runs (before the line gets bad) there without having to hike from paradise.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 9, 2016)

Duncanator24 said:


> Anyone know if the "issues" with the castlerock lift were solved over the summer? They didnt have it running much last season and I love those early morning runs (before the line gets bad) there without having to hike from paradise.


It ran for about a week.  There weren't issues with the lift.  The marginal snow base last year, the terrain couldn't handle the skier traffic if they opened up the chair.  The long trail isn't a bad hike and it keeps the traffic down.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2016)

From my friends reports, There is not enough snow yet and not enough of a demand to support opening the lift.  Also there was no mechanical issue that forced its closure or kept it closed.


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## Tin (Dec 9, 2016)

Hawk said:


> From my friends reports, There is not enough snow yet




There was more snow on Liftline and Middle on Tuesday than there has probably been in two years and they have received another foot since.  The last time I skied so much snow was Nemo in 2013 or 36" in 36 hours at Stowe. Never heard a noise under my skis and that included all the ledges. There is PLENTY of snow, but yes, keep it closed please.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2016)

Tin said:


> There was more snow on Liftline and Middle on Tuesday than there has probably been in two years and they have received another foot since. Never heard a noise under my skis and that included all the ledges. There is PLENTY of snow.



Open the lift and put a whole weekends worth of traffic on it and see what it looks like.  You also have to remember that there was nothing on the ground 2 weeks ago.  It will get eaten up quick.  You were one of probably a couple hundred that skied it this week.  What do you suppose 1000's will do to it?


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## Tin (Dec 9, 2016)

Hawk said:


> Open the lift and put a whole weekends worth of traffic on it and see what it looks like.  You also have to remember that there was nothing on the ground 2 weeks ago.  It will get eaten up quick.  You were one of probably a couple hundred that skied it this week.  What do you suppose 1000's will do to it?



Sorry edited, I'm all for keeping the lift closed for that reason, but there is plenty of snow.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2016)

Hawk said:


> From my friends reports, There is not enough snow yet and not enough of a demand to support opening the lift.  Also there was no mechanical issue that forced its closure or kept it closed.



It is a good idea to wait for the lift but let those who are eager enough to hike it ski it.  They do get kudos for aggressively opening terrain but also being wise as to when to turn the lift.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 9, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> It ran for about a week.  There weren't issues with the lift.  The marginal snow base last year, the terrain couldn't handle the skier traffic if they opened up the chair.  The long trail isn't a bad hike and it keeps the traffic down.



I never knew they intentionally closed the lift to help out the snow quality. Sounds like a great idea and makes sense to me! I recall getting the lift during one trip last season (in Feb I think?) and then I hiked it a couple times on a powder day. Will certainly be hiking it again soon assuming the snow keeps falling.


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## teleo (Dec 9, 2016)

Never heard of lift issues last year.  Plenty of snow issues though.  I hiked it more than used the lift and rock ski is were a good idea most of the time last year.

Please please leave the lift off this weekend.  I've been looking forward to getting that all week while stuck at work.


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## JimG. (Dec 9, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It is a good idea to wait for the lift but let those who are eager enough to hike it ski it.  They do get kudos for aggressively opening terrain but also being wise as to when to turn the lift.



+1


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## mikec142 (Dec 9, 2016)

nhskier1969 said:


> It ran for about a week.  There weren't issues with the lift.  The marginal snow base last year, the terrain couldn't handle the skier traffic if they opened up the chair.  The long trail isn't a bad hike and it keeps the traffic down.



I've never done the hike...assuming the lift is closed over the holidays when we will be there, is the Long Trail marked?  How do I get to it?  Can my 14 and 12 year olds deal with the hike?  They are excellent skiers so I'm not worried about the terrain.  Thanks so much.

PS.  I love how this thread turned on a dime from the SB sux chorus to the SB is awesome chorus.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 9, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> I've never done the hike...assuming the lift is closed over the holidays when we will be there, is the Long Trail marked?  How do I get to it?  Can my 14 and 12 year olds deal with the hike?


It's a pretty easy hike relatively. Only a couple of sections where you remove skis and walk uphill. It is a bit tiring so you do earn your run for sure. It is not marked but it is generally easy to follow. I did get lost my first time and had to backtrack a little but if you go on a weekend, there are plenty of people making the trek over.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> I've never done the hike...assuming the lift is closed over the holidays when we will be there, is the Long Trail marked?  How do I get to it?  Can my 14 and 12 year olds deal with the hike?  They are excellent skiers so I'm not worried about the terrain.  Thanks so much.
> 
> PS.  I love how this thread turned on a dime from the SB sux chorus to the SB is awesome chorus.



I think your perception of the conversation is wrong.  No one was saying SBs suck I think.  There are some of us that want a better snow making system is all.  I think there are zero people that do not like SB with abundant snow.  The critique will come back once it R*&#'s.  ;-)


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## WWF-VT (Dec 9, 2016)

Another awesome day today at Sugarbush.  6+ inches of new snow overnight up high and it snowed at varying levels of intensity all day.  

I pretty much skied everything that was open with the exception of hiking Castlerock.  Highlights were Spillsville and Paradise.



All alone on Spillsville:








Lots of snow on Paradise:







Looks like the plan is to have all of the Valley House terrain open tomorrow which is pretty damn good for December 10th.


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> I've never done the hike...assuming the lift is closed over the holidays when we will be there, is the Long Trail marked?  How do I get to it?  Can my 14 and 12 year olds deal with the hike?  They are excellent skiers so I'm not worried about the terrain.  Thanks so much.
> 
> PS.  I love how this thread turned on a dime from the SB sux chorus to the SB is awesome chorus.



The Long Trail itself is marked...but good luck seeing the white blazes in the winter! It is about a 15-20 minute hike. A couple uphill sections where you take your skis off. Then a few downhill sections. It is the long trail, so it is relatively narrow and a bit twisty.

Relatively easy to get to and pretty easy to follow the path of others. You ski straight down Paradise along the ridgeline and just keep going straight into the woods at the end of the top section of Paradise instead of turning right to head downhill. (Last year SB actually had the entrance marked with a patrol marker that said "CR Open" or something like that). The first hundred feet or so in the woods is really the only part where I think you can get "lost" as there are sometimes divergent tracks with people skiing down into the woods in Paradise instead of hiking towards CR. One you get onto the main Long Trail section though it always seemed pretty easy to know you were on the right path.

And I completely agree with the way Sugarbush handles the CR lift vs allowing hiking access. If the lift is closed but hiking is allowed, it means they do not believe there is sufficient snow to handle the amount of traffic a lift would bring. If they are officially allowing hiking though, then my experience from last year hiking it says that means there is definitely enough snow to ski it for people willing to hike. Last year the lift only ran 11 or 12 days I believe, and it was entirely due to insufficient snow pack to handle a lot of people. The 3 hikes I took over last year were well worth it. After those hikes I started to almost wish they never ran the lift and only allowed access via hiking :smile:


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Another awesome day today at Sugarbush.  6+ inches of new snow overnight up high and it snowed at varying levels of intensity all day.
> 
> I pretty much skied everything that was open with the exception of hiking Castlerock.  Highlights were Spillsville and Paradise.
> 
> ...



Nice pics. I was up there this morning but just drove home for the weekend and didn't take any turns today. Planning to drive back up Monday and ski Tuesday-Friday hopefully. ME opening day next Friday should be rather sweet and I'd like to at least get out and hour or 2 in the morning on Friday before driving home again.


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## dlague (Dec 9, 2016)

Things are really looking sweet there.

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## Savemeasammy (Dec 9, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> Can my 14 and 12 year olds deal with the hike?



How much pissing and moaning will they do, and how much can you put up with?!


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 9, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Lots of snow on Paradise:



So friggin' sweet.


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2016)

A few more pics from earlier this week...


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## JimG. (Dec 9, 2016)

mikec142 said:


> PS.  I love how this thread turned on a dime from the SB sux chorus to the SB is awesome chorus.



That's what happens when it snows.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 9, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I think your perception of the conversation is wrong.  No one was saying SBs suck I think.  There are some of us that want a better snow making system is all.  I think there are zero people that do not like SB with abundant snow.  The critique will come back once it R*&#'s.  ;-)




No NO No...
SB sucks, don't go there this weekend, please stay away. LOL
In fact stay away from the Mad River Valley, no snow here.


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## kbird (Dec 9, 2016)

Sooo sick, thanks for sharing! My trip is the Feb 3-5th *fingers crossed* for tons of pow!


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## teleo (Dec 9, 2016)

cdskier said:


> After those hikes I started to almost wish they never ran the lift and only allowed access via hiking [emoji2]



Hmmm,  now there's a thought there are times I'd like that.

Have had 12 yr olds and younger on the hike.  Must be comfortable hiking in snow with skis on shoulder.  And be into such activities.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 10, 2016)

The hike to Castlerock was worth it today....


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sugarbush just announced in the latest snow report that the mountain will be 100% open on Friday! This is going to be a great weekend =)


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## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2016)

Duncanator24 said:


> Sugarbush just announced in the latest snow report that the mountain will be 100% open on Friday! This is going to be a great weekend =)



Saturday yes, Sunday maybe not so much


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## WWF-VT (Dec 13, 2016)

Spillsville today...sunny skies and fresh snow with more expected tonight


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Spillsville today...sunny skies and fresh snow with more expected tonight




Awesome.  A very under rated trail imo. I'll take it over its neighbors any day.


Question for you SB locals, last week when I was there patrol mentioned that groomers had been on Castlerock Run, Middle Earth, and Cotillion prior to opening them last Tuesday, is this common or just done to push down that 30" of blower they had?


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Saturday yes, Sunday maybe not so much



LOL...dirt, rock and waterbars by 11am on Saturday below mid mtn?

I was there on Saturday afternoon and there's a reason the snow report says you should ask Guest Services about the best way down.  Sugarbush has one of the most lenient to non-existent standards to open a trail in New England.  Even MRG keeps stuff closed that the Bush would open.  Bring the rock skis and have a blast.


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## shadyjay (Dec 13, 2016)

The cat was up there packing it down, especially the lower elevation runs on CR, such as traverses, the runout, and such.  Trying to make it through 30" of snow on some runouts wouldn't work too well for my kind (ie - snowboarders).  

Word is there could be some "funk" moving in on Sunday, that's why Saturday may be better.  But it will be cold on Friday for sure... so if you're MEllen bound then, bundle up!

I love the fact that they do open trails earlier than most mountains would, though everything I have ridden in the past week has been really good, coverage-wise.  A few waterbars here n' there, including those on Lower Jester last week, but we're solving that problem as we speak.  When 100% comes this weekend (forecasted at sugarbush.com), I'd watch the waterbars on lower-elevation Gate House runs, such as Sleeper.  Our sled route on Sleeper Road will be more fun on a board than it is on a sled right now.


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## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2016)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> LOL...dirt, rock and waterbars by 11am on Saturday below mid mtn?
> 
> I was there on Saturday afternoon and there's a reason the snow report says you should ask Guest Services about the best way down.  Sugarbush has one of the most lenient to non-existent standards to open a trail in New England.  Even MRG keeps stuff closed that the Bush would open.  Bring the rock skis and have a blast.



I am talking this coming weekend and the weather


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2016)

CR was nice today. Glad I decided to hike over.




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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2016)

They are saying in today's report that the mountain will be 100% open on Friday including all of Mt Ellen, Castlerock, Gate house and North Linx.   That is pretty awesome.  I think I might be sick  cough....cough.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> I am talking this coming weekend and the weather



Never sure if it’s worth trusting the weather report for 3-5 days ahead.   This morning was predicted to be sunny and it’s currently nuking snow at 8 AM.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2016)

Not sure what forecast you are looking at.  The ones I watch have been saying all week that with the push of frigid air, Sugarbush should get snow and squalls starting today and for the next 2 days.


WWF-VT said:


> Never sure if it’s worth trusting the weather report for 3-5 days ahead.   This morning was predicted to be sunny and it’s currently nuking snow at 8 AM.


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## Smellytele (Dec 14, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Never sure if it’s worth trusting the weather report for 3-5 days ahead.   This morning was predicted to be sunny and it’s currently nuking snow at 8 AM.



*Friday Night*
Snow  showers likely, mainly after 4am.  Mostly cloudy, with a low around 3.  Breezy, with a west wind 15 to 21 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 60%.

*Saturday*
Snow.  High near 30. Very windy, with a south wind 31 to 41 mph, with gusts as high as 50 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 80%.

*Saturday Night*
Snow  and sleet before midnight, then freezing rain between midnight and 4am,  then sleet after 4am.  Low around 24. Very windy, with a southwest wind  34 to 44 mph increasing to 45 to 55 mph after midnight. Winds could  gust as high as 70 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 80%.

*Sunday*
Rain,  snow, and sleet before 2pm, then rain and snow likely between 2pm and  3pm, then snow likely after 3pm.  High near 37. Windy, with a northwest  wind 28 to 36 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 80%.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2016)

A few reports had sun forecast or this AM with clouds and snow showers later.   FWIW here is the mornings snow report....

Look for morning sunshine turning into clouds to start the day with temps in the single digits to low 20's, top to bottom


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## Jully (Dec 14, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> *Sunday*
> Rain,  snow, and sleet before 2pm, then rain and snow likely between 2pm and  3pm, then snow likely after 3pm.  High near 37. Windy, with a northwest  wind 28 to 36 mph.  Chance of precipitation is 80%.



That's not that bad at all! I mean, not ideal, but not bad.


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## Smellytele (Dec 14, 2016)

Rain between midnight and 3pm


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Rain between midnight and 3pm



Better get it while the getting is good. 

Seemed we always had a thaw/crap event prior to the holidays. 


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## sugarbushskier9 (Dec 14, 2016)

Mountain was in great shape today...nice to have some more groomed options. Really nice surprise to have a squall dump a quick 1-2" (aka 4" in the snow cam hole) that really freshened itup.  Sick to get these dailyrefreshes.  Hiked to CR and had a sweet run down Middle Earth. That terrain couldn't with stand lift traffic but right now it's perfect as a hike venue and I almost hope they have *cough* mechanical difficulties with the CR lift and cant run it this season lol.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Rain between midnight and 3pm



On the plus side...that wet weather should help fill the snowmaking pond again. Just heard from a reliable source it is getting very low at the moment. 

And today was definitely another beautiful day on the mountain. Murphys is skiing better than ever. I almost don't want them to make any snow on it at this point...of course I may change my mind after the weekend weather event.

I also noticed in the afternoon snow report that they backed off the 100% open on Friday prediction. Someone must not feel gate house and/or north Lynx are ready yet. They are still saying ME will be fully open on Friday though.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2016)

That's interesting about maybe not 100%.  I got a marketing Email this AM crowing about 100% open. 


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## Tin (Dec 15, 2016)

Was torn between Bush and Pico today. Grabbed a ticket for Pico last night, then see this image when I get up to check snow reports....:dunce:

Streamers be sneaky.


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## tumbler (Dec 15, 2016)

This will not be a pond filling rain, most of the liquid wil be absorbed by the snow pack.  Pond fillers are the 2 days of the 45+ degree and heavy rain.  I think it will be au natural for a while until the January thaw the nwe pray for liquid so they can resurface.  Keep the snow coming and I won't be complaining!


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 15, 2016)

Anybody know if season pass pickup is only at the Lincoln Base area or can this also be done at Mt Ellen? I am going tomorrow with some friends who have to pick up passes. Was hoping we could just go direct to Ellen before all of the untouched powder is gone.


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2016)

As far as I know all season pass facilities are In the farm house at Lincoln Base area.  You can only get day passes at North.


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2016)

Duncanator24 said:


> Anybody know if season pass pickup is only at the Lincoln Base area or can this also be done at Mt Ellen? I am going tomorrow with some friends who have to pick up passes. Was hoping we could just go direct to Ellen before all of the untouched powder is gone.


You will be challenged to see much untouched power at North.  People have been skinning, hiking and skiing over there for 3 weeks solid.  Not to mention that GMVS has access also.


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## benski (Dec 15, 2016)

Hawk said:


> You will be challenged to see much untouched power at North.  People have been skinning, hiking and skiing over there for 3 weeks solid.  Not to mention that GMVS has access also.



Still should be awesome packed powder and woods.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 15, 2016)

Hawk said:


> You will be challenged to see much untouched power at North.  People have been skinning, hiking and skiing over there for 3 weeks solid.  Not to mention that GMVS has access also.



There will be plenty of untracked powder at Mt Ellen tomorrow.  Patrol and mountain operations have been real hard asses on skinning lately and GMVS doesn’t duck ropes.   I walked my dog around the base area for the last six days and saw first hand what was happening. Inverness opened a few days ago so GMVS has not been using the GMX and Summitt chairs.


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2016)

[QUOTE=WWF

I was speaking from my experience.  Just saying.


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2016)

Well sugarbush is officially 100% open, but north Lynx is via hiking at the moment. Mt Ellen was lots of slabby wind packed powder this morning. I might have been better off taking some runs at LP instead of going over to ME.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Well sugarbush is officially 100% open, but north Lynx is via hiking at the moment. Mt Ellen was lots of slabby wind packed powder this morning. I might have been better off taking some runs at LP instead of going over to ME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Interesting.  Get it while the getting is good!


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## WWF-VT (Dec 16, 2016)

*MT. ELLEN*
-4°
Base

-12°
Mid

-13°
Summit
​




Add some wind and you have a nice warm day in VT....


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## rocks860 (Dec 16, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> *MT. ELLEN*
> -4°
> Base
> 
> ...



Yep, that sounds like the last couple years I've been there. Few years ago it was -22 at the summit of LP the first day we were there


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## tumbler (Dec 16, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Well sugarbush is officially 100% open, but north Lynx is via hiking at the moment. Mt Ellen was lots of slabby wind packed powder this morning. I might have been better off taking some runs at LP instead of going over to ME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



bit lame to claim 100% open when having to hike uphill to ski NL.  I'm ok with ridgleline hike to CR


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## Hawk (Dec 16, 2016)

tumbler said:


> bit lame to claim 100% open when having to hike uphill to ski NL.  I'm ok with ridgleline hike to CR



I don't think the lift is inspected and ready to go.  Hey just like CR, it was way better last weekend before the masses got there.


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2016)

Hawk said:


> I don't think the lift is inspected and ready to go.  Hey just like CR, it was way better last weekend before the masses got there.



I also heard they are short on lift operators at the moment and still have quite a few open positions. If that is true, that could also explain NL not yet running.


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## cdskier (Dec 17, 2016)

tumbler said:


> bit lame to claim 100% open when having to hike uphill to ski NL.  I'm ok with ridgleline hike to CR



And today NL (and CR) lifts are both running...I'm actually a bit disappointed to see the CR lift running.


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## Plowboy (Dec 18, 2016)

tumbler said:


> This will not be a pond filling rain, most of the liquid wil be absorbed by the snow pack.  Pond fillers are the 2 days of the 45+ degree and heavy rain.


This is a pond filling rain. Lockwood, Slide and Millbrook are all running strong. It rained heavy most of the night and morning with temps at 50 degrees. Back to 0 degrees tonight and a full pond.


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2016)

cdskier said:


> And today NL (and CR) lifts are both running...I'm actually a bit disappointed to see the CR lift running.



I guess you were not here then. CR skied fantastic, there is a lot of snow up there.


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2016)

Plowboy said:


> This is a pond filling rain. Lockwood, Slide and Millbrook are all running strong. It rained heavy most of the night and morning with temps at 50 degrees. Back to 0 degrees tonight and a full pond.



It sure is. Looking at the river running high so full pond it is.


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## cdskier (Dec 18, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I guess you were not here then. CR skied fantastic, there is a lot of snow up there.



I was up Tues-Fri and drove back to NJ for the weekend. I'm sure it did ski fantastic, but it was nice with such limited traffic via hiking. CR probably saw far more people skiing it yesterday via the lift than it did all season via hiking so far.

May not matter too much as now the weather has had a significant impact on all the snow I'm sure. It is amazing that it is currently warmer in VT than it is in NJ.


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## Duncanator24 (Dec 27, 2016)

Anybody been on the mountain in this past week? I skiied through some heavy rain Dec 18th and the lower mountain areas were not looking good at the time. Saturday (Dec 17th) was absolutely amazing with 100% of the mountain open, some REALLY good stuff back in Slide Brook. Just curious if anyone has been up there since then and if it is still skiing alright. Weather reports haven't seemed promising.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2016)

Duncanator24 said:


> Anybody been on the mountain in this past week? I skiied through some heavy rain Dec 18th and the lower mountain areas were not looking good at the time. Saturday (Dec 17th) was absolutely amazing with 100% of the mountain open, some REALLY good stuff back in Slide Brook. Just curious if anyone has been up there since then and if it is still skiing alright. Weather reports haven't seemed promising.



I skied the 20-22nd. 20 and 21st were "stick to the groomer" days with fast and firm conditions. 22nd was nice with some new natural snow. Even Murphy's with only all natural snow was skiing great that day. I heard by Friday people were saying all that new snow was skied off though and then the weather yesterday/today has surely had an impact again as well so what it was like last week when I was there may no longer be relevant. If you're looking to ski natural terrain, then you'll need to wait until later this week after they get more snow. All the webcam views at the moment still show a decent amount of snow from what you can see...so at least there should be a firm base to build on when more snow falls.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 27, 2016)

I skied Mt Ellen on 12/25 & 26 and it was typical early winter conditions.  Groomers in good shape and the natural snow trails – Tumbler, Cliffs , Bravo, Encore and Exterminator were decent but had a few thin spots and could use a refresh of snow.   Last night it warmed up and rained with the current temperature 35 degrees at the base of Mt Ellen. Today the natural snow trails are all closed and may not be worth skiing again until there is significant snowfall.  Upper mountain at Mt Ellen was locked up frozen today and Cruiser, Northstar and Inverness were the only trails worth a repeat.   Keeping my fingers crossed that we get a good amount of snow Thursday into Friday this week.


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## rocks860 (Dec 27, 2016)

From the other thread. 12/26

Well I ended up going to sugarbush and it was better than I expected. Got there around 915 and the first lot was only about half full. Took a run off of gatehouse and the snow was pretty nice. Then took a bunch of runs off heavens gate. Paradise had a good amount of snow and wasn't as sketchy as I thought it would be. Didn't ski ripcord as it looked and sounded pretty scraped off but took a few runs down organ grinder which was pretty nice. Run of the day was probably moonshine which had some bare spots but over all was a lot of fun. Not a bad first day of the season


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm curious if there are ever going to be plans to improve the end of Lower FIS (or if that is even possible). I find that this is a really great trail and there are a lot of really good woods areas that drop off onto this as well. But the hike at the end is torture. I feel like the trail could be carved slightly differently to level out some of the uphill sections. I guess the only downside is then the trail would see more traffic. Sorry if I am lazy for wanting that haha.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2017)

I wouldn't expect to see any changes. I like the fact that the traverse discourages some people from skiing Lower FIS as it helps preserve the snow over there.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2017)

Skied at Lincoln Peak on 12/28 and 12/29.  The 28th was fast and firm with my favorites being Birch Run and Eden's Glades.  It snowed on the 29th which made a big difference.  Murphy's was awesome.  Ripcord was pretty good too.  Would have like to have stayed and skied on the 30th, but the family was exhausted having skied 5 of 6 days and we still had a 5.5 hour ride home.


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## benski (Jan 4, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> I'm curious if there are ever going to be plans to improve the end of Lower FIS (or if that is even possible). I find that this is a really great trail and there are a lot of really good woods areas that drop off onto this as well. But the hike at the end is torture. I feel like the trail could be carved slightly differently to level out some of the uphill sections. I guess the only downside is then the trail would see more traffic. Sorry if I am lazy for wanting that haha.



There master plan shows a lift, though I think thats just wishful thinking. If they are going to make people go down to the Sunny D they might as well build a direct route, even if its just a bike trail.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 4, 2017)

benski said:


> There master plan shows a lift, though I think thats just wishful thinking. If they are going to make people go down to the Sunny D they might as well build a direct route, even if its just a bike trail.



Master plan? Curious to see what else is in there.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I wouldn't expect to see any changes. I like the fact that the traverse discourages some people from skiing Lower FIS as it helps preserve the snow over there.



I agree, it does help preserve the snow. This is why I keep going back there when I am at Mount Ellen, despite the hike. I also wonder if entering Slide Brook from there is worthwhile as well and end up at the road and take the bus back in. I know Slide Brook well enough from the Lincoln Peak side but have not explored the Mt Ellen side at all. Maybe if I find an elevation map that could help figure out if that is a good spot to enter.


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## speeddemon (Jan 4, 2017)

I recently have been skiing out of a property above the condos in the Upper Village area. I skied home the other day. It was actually quite fun, but a bit of workout, I'll do it again. I was wondering if there was ever consideration of a lift put in, perhaps even a rope tow down to the condos area from the top of the Gate House Chair. Seems like a consortium of owners could get together and do this and it would significantly increase property values along that corridor, unless I'm missing something. The simple reason is the whole skiing down to the condos, catching a bus or walking thing is a bit tedious.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Master plan? Curious to see what else is in there.



It is from 2008 and I'm sure not the current plan. That same plan that benski is referring to shows several new trail pods including one between North Lynx and CR and another above Inverness. A lot of the proposed tree skiing areas in that plan did become reality though as officially marked glades now.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> It is from 2008 and I'm sure not the current plan. That same plan that benski is referring to shows several new trail pods including one between North Lynx and CR and another above Inverness. A lot of the proposed tree skiing areas in that plan did become reality though as officially marked glades now.



Has there been any progress as to that plan?  There were also some terrain expansions at ME.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> It is from 2008 and I'm sure not the current plan. That same plan that benski is referring to shows several new trail pods including one between North Lynx and CR and another above Inverness. A lot of the proposed tree skiing areas in that plan did become reality though as officially marked glades now.



Oh cool, I found the maps located in that end of that document. Even if it is not current, it is an interesting read:
http://www.iabsi.com/ski/sugarbush/2008_Sugarbush_Vegetation Management Plan_With_Figures.pdf


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Has there been any progress as to that plan?  There were also some terrain expansions at ME.



Nothing that I've heard anyone mention. I'd say terrain expansion is a very low priority, especially with the proliferation of tree skiing these days. A number of people would push back on new trails as it would ruin their "secret, yet no so secret" stashes in the trees. 

Any terrain expansion would almost surely have to be without snowmaking at this point (particularly at ME where Win has stated they cannot expand the snowmaking system at all due to a grandfathered permit that they have) which makes it somewhat of a risk to have more pods that are dependent on natural snowfall. Personally I'd be ok with more all-natural terrain, but think they'd be better off spending money on upgrading existing core infrastructure for now at least (even simple things like more pipe replacements at LP to beef up the snowmaking system there would be much higher on my priority list).


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2017)

Cut a trail from the bottom of OG to Ripcord to take pressure off Downspout.  Don't cut the trail through the Domino woods.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 4, 2017)

I really wouldn't want anymore trails, but would like more glades.  This would be wishful thinking but I would love to see them glade out slide brook, very similar to what Sugarloaf did with Brackett Basin.  Then reconfigure the Slide brook express with a pick up point at the bottom where is reaches the basin.  You could go off the back of North Lynx or Mount ellen and ski close to 2100 vertical.  You could then take the slide brook chair back to either Ellen or Lincoln Peak.  Glading slide brook would give Sugarbush over 2500++ acres of skiable terrain.


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## Jully (Jan 4, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I really wouldn't want anymore trails, but would like more glades.  This would be wishful thinking but I would love to see them glade out slide brook, very similar to what Sugarloaf did with Brackett Basin.  Then reconfigure the Slide brook express with a pick up point at the bottom where is reaches the basin.  You could go off the back of North Lynx or Mount ellen and ski close to 2100 vertical.  You could then take the slide brook chair back to either Ellen or Lincoln Peak.  Glading slide brook would give Sugarbush over 2500++ acres of skiable terrain.



They've had all sorts of plans for slidebrook, but its a black bear habitat and protected and can't have anything done to it the last I heard.


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2017)

Jully said:


> They've had all sorts of plans for slidebrook, but its a black bear habitat and protected and can't have anything done to it the last I heard.



Correct, nothing more happening in Slidebrook.  It was enough permitting just to get the lift in.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2017)

Jully said:


> They've had all sorts of plans for slidebrook, but its a black bear habitat and protected and can't have anything done to it the last I heard.



Correct from my understanding as well. They are not even allowed to run the Slide Brook chair during the non-winter-season except for maintenance work. If any development was going to happen in Slidebrook, it would have had to been done years ago before it was designated a protected bear habitat.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 5, 2017)

I could see the area listed as "Future Mountain Expansion Potential" being built as access to another real estate venture. Probably just a trail or two to provide "slopeside access" to the new project


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I really wouldn't want anymore trails, but would like more glades.  This would be wishful thinking but I would love to see them glade out slide brook, very similar to what Sugarloaf did with Brackett Basin.  Then reconfigure the Slide brook express with a pick up point at the bottom where is reaches the basin.  You could go off the back of North Lynx or Mount ellen and ski close to 2100 vertical.  You could then take the slide brook chair back to either Ellen or Lincoln Peak.  Glading slide brook would give Sugarbush over 2500++ acres of skiable terrain.



Meh...there are already lots of options in the woods , not "glades" between LP ad Mt  Ellen with a shuttle bus transportation option


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## benski (Jan 5, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> I could see the area listed as "Future Mountain Expansion Potential" being built as access to another real estate venture. Probably just a trail or two to provide "slopeside access" to the new project



It could also provide an alternate lot for people who boot up at there car. That would help reduce the traffic problem on the access road and open up some space for a few more condos at the current base area.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 6, 2017)

Re: SlideBrook Chairlift. I know the snow report mentions that there needs to be enough snow under the lift to enable snowmobiles to get in there in the case of emergency. What about using Quads? If the snow isn't deep enough for a snowmobile, then it shouldn't be too deep for a Quad. I am sure there is an answer, and I feel like I have heard it before, but can't remember.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 7, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> Re: SlideBrook Chairlift. I know the snow report mentions that there needs to be enough snow under the lift to enable snowmobiles to get in there in the case of emergency. What about using Quads? If the snow isn't deep enough for a snowmobile, then it shouldn't be too deep for a Quad. I am sure there is an answer, and I feel like I have heard it before, but can't remember.



What's a "Quad" ?


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 7, 2017)

wwf-vt said:


> what's a "quad" ?



atv


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## shadyjay (Jan 8, 2017)

Don't believe we have enough quads for that purpose, plus you'd have to get said quad from the base areas up to the roads daily.  Each day the lift operates, the lift maintenance crews have to go in and check the roads.  We have way more snowmobiles than quads.  In addition, the lift wouldn't have been running this weekend anyway even if there was enough snow, since temps are below the threshold.  A 2-mile lift ride would be pretty cold if it stopped.  I rode it one time in a snowstorm when it was in the teens/low 20s and by the time I got back to LP, I was a bit "chilled".


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 8, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> Don't believe we have enough quads for that purpose, plus you'd have to get said quad from the base areas up to the roads daily.  Each day the lift operates, the lift maintenance crews have to go in and check the roads.  We have way more snowmobiles than quads.  In addition, the lift wouldn't have been running this weekend anyway even if there was enough snow, since temps are below the threshold.  A 2-mile lift ride would be pretty cold if it stopped.  I rode it one time in a snowstorm when it was in the teens/low 20s and by the time I got back to LP, I was a bit "chilled".




Time for 'Olde School blankets! :lol:


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## djd66 (Jan 8, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Time for 'Olde School blankets! :lol:



I wish they would take out half the chairs and substitute with gondolas.  Every time I ride that chair, I freeze my ass off!


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> Don't believe we have enough quads for that purpose, plus you'd have to get said quad from the base areas up to the roads daily.  Each day the lift operates, the lift maintenance crews have to go in and check the roads.  We have way more snowmobiles than quads.  In addition, the lift wouldn't have been running this weekend anyway even if there was enough snow, since temps are below the threshold.  A 2-mile lift ride would be pretty cold if it stopped.  I rode it one time in a snowstorm when it was in the teens/low 20s and by the time I got back to LP, I was a bit "chilled".



*Thanks for the reply Shadyjay. Even if you don't have enough Quads/ATVs right now, isn't it a small price to pay (buying a small fleet) vs. watching your multi-million dollar lift sit unused for the majority of the season? I think there has to be another reason. *


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> Thanks for the reply Shadyjay. Even if you don't have enough Quads/ATVs right now, isn't it a small price to pay (buying a small fleet) vs. watching your multi-million dollar lift sit unused for the majority of the season? I think there has to be another reason.



I don't know if even quads would be a realistic solution. Running quads over water bars that aren't completely filled in isn't necessarily a great idea. Considering some of the water bars that are still present on the lower elevation natural trails, I find it hard to believe all the roads/trails through Slide Brook wouldn't have those same problems at lower elevations.

Personally I'd rather see the lift sit idle for a few weeks rather than see Sugarbush waste money on a fleet of quads that they don't really need.


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## Griswold (Jan 9, 2017)

Sorry to change the subject here but can anyone recommend a ski shop in the sugarbush area for a tune?  I do most tuning myself but it is time for a base grind and I will be skiing sugarbush this weekend.  Thanks in advance!


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2017)

Griswold said:


> Sorry to change the subject here but can anyone recommend a ski shop in the sugarbush area for a tune?  I do most tuning myself but it is time for a base grind and I will be skiing sugarbush this weekend.  Thanks in advance!



Personally I use the on mountain shop for tune ups and have never had a complaint. I like the convenience of dropping off at the end of one day of skiing and picking it up the next morning right at the mountain without making any other stops. With the discount for passholders, they come out to pretty much the same price as the other reputable shops in the area.

My second choice would probably be Mountainside though if you're against using Sugarbush's own shop. https://mountainsideski.com/ski-tuning/


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## tumbler (Jan 9, 2017)

I like Alpine Options.  Get them in before 8pm on Friday night and they will be ready in the morning.


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I like Alpine Options.  Get them in before 8pm on Friday night and they will be ready in the morning.



I refuse to go back there after they sold a demo ski they were holding for me without the courtesy of a phone call a few years ago. I rushed up there (5 hour drive) after work on a Friday to pick it up before they closed and when I got there they said "sorry, we sold that yesterday". I get that someone wanted to buy the ski and they sold it when they had the opportunity. I don't get the fact that they had my phone number and didn't call me to say something.


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## Plowboy (Jan 9, 2017)

Mountainside.....My son works there!!!


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## tumbler (Jan 9, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I refuse to go back there after they sold a demo ski they were holding for me without the courtesy of a phone call a few years ago. I rushed up there (5 hour drive) after work on a Friday to pick it up before they closed and when I got there they said "sorry, we sold that yesterday". I get that someone wanted to buy the ski and they sold it when they had the opportunity. I don't get the fact that they had my phone number and didn't call me to say something.



Bummer but seems like a bit much to refuse them but whatever.  I think everyone has there go to preference especially if you are in there enough you develop relationship.  Like your favorite bartender, know him and you get good service.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 9, 2017)

I take all our gear to Alpine Options. I've been super happy.


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## Griswold (Jan 9, 2017)

Thanks for the recommendations.  Sounds like I can't really go wrong with any of them


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## Hawk (Jan 10, 2017)

I have been going to Alpine options for about 12 yrs now.  Joe and Anya are good people to me and have gone way out of their way many times to help me out.  I am sure your ski issue was a simple mistake or they did not think you would be back. Did they take down your name and number with a firm commitment?  Typically they take a deposit on skis if you want to hold them.  If you went in and said I want to buy these and did not put anything down then they have every right to sell them.  Who knows if you are coming back. 
I would never go to Mountain side.  I have had more than one bad experience that I will not elaborate on.  That is just my experience.  Some people love Brooke and I am sure he has his crew that he services.  
I have never done the tuning at the mountain but..... they have a pretty good turnover with employment and I cringe to think that some newly trained tech will be grinding the crap out of my skis.  Again just my take.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2017)

Hawk, like I said, I didn't have an issue with them selling the skis. I had an issue with them not calling me (they had my name and number) to say "Hey, sorry. We sold the skis you were going to demo this weekend. Would you like something else instead to try?" The attitude when I got there was of complete indifference and they didn't seem to care at all that they didn't give me the courtesy of a head's up. What was the point of taking my number? If it was a simple mistake, they could have at least apologized and said "we meant to call you" or something like that.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Hawk, like I said, I didn't have an issue with them selling the skis. I had an issue with them not calling me (they had my name and number) to say "Hey, sorry. We sold the skis you were going to demo this weekend. Would you like something else instead to try?" The attitude when I got there was of complete indifference and they didn't seem to care at all that they didn't give me the courtesy of a head's up. What was the point of taking my number? If it was a simple mistake, they could have at least apologized and said "we meant to call you" or something like that.



That's unfortunate. Why didn't you just demo a different ski?  They have lots of skis.  Also they close at 11:00 on Fridays so Why were you rushing up there and you ski every weekend it seems so you would have drove the 5 hours anyway.  Just saying.

 I have never had treatment like that there.  But I have been buying all my stuff there for years.  They even give me a discount and special service because I am loyal to them.  I guess what I am saying is you should give them another shot.  IF you tell them about your bad experience they will probably give you special attention and you will never have that problem again.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

Hawk said:


> That's unfortunate. Why didn't you just demo a different ski?  They have lots of skis.  Also they close at 11:00 on Fridays so Why were you rushing up there and you ski every weekend it seems so you would have drove the 5 hours anyway.  Just saying.
> 
> I have never had treatment like that there.  But I have been buying all my stuff there for years.  They even give me a discount and special service because I am loyal to them.  I guess what I am saying is you should give them another shot.  IF you tell them about your bad experience they will probably give you special attention and you will never have that problem again.



From what I recall, they had no other options available in any similar skis. Maybe it was a busy weekend for some reason and the others that I would have been interested in were already reserved or in use? You're right that I was making the drive no matter what, but I don't exactly recall specifics on why the timing was so tight that day causing me to have to rush. Whatever time they closed, I got there about 15 minutes before that so just made it. I was thinking they closed at 9 or 10 that night (10 is what their website currently says for Friday nights...11 would have in theory been easy and shouldn't have caused me to have to rush at all).

I did end up buying the skis I wanted to demo that summer at a great price online (without ever demoing them). Always figured I could turn around and re-sell them if I didn't like them. I love them however, so I lucked out there (Nordica Hell & Backs).

If I happen to be in the market again for any new equipment, maybe I'll give them another shot since you have such high praise for them.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2017)

Your call my friend.  I am somewhat biased to those guys as they are my friends.  I just felt the need to stick up for them.  Do give them another shot and I am sure it will not be as bad.  See you on the slopes.


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

I've been to infinite in waitsfield a bunch and been very pleased with the guy there (Shawn I think) but haven't gotten my skis tuned there. Only had some work done on my boots.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2017)

I was in there the other day.  That is real convenient if you are in town food shopping to at the md taco.  They seemed nice.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I've been to infinite in waitsfield a bunch and been very pleased with the guy there (Shawn I think) but haven't gotten my skis tuned there. Only had some work done on my boots.



Seth is the owner. Maybe that's who you are thinking of? I've been to Infinite quite a bit for things other than skis. He seems to be the only one that carries the particular Darn Tough socks that I like. I have no experience with their equipment/service though.


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## mrvpilgrim (Jan 11, 2017)

I have had tunes done by Seth numerous times. Never had an issue with his work.  I have purchased several sets of skis from him and last year purchased a new pair of boots after about 10 years in my old boots. Had a very positive boot fitting experience.  It took a couple of return visits to dial them in but each time he listened and tweaked them to the point that they are now the most comfortable boots that I have owned in my 40+ years of skiing.


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Seth is the owner. Maybe that's who you are thinking of? I've been to Infinite quite a bit for things other than skis. He seems to be the only one that carries the particular Darn Tough socks that I like. I have no experience with their equipment/service though.



Yeah I knew it began with an S. I was in there a couple seasons ago and he worked on my boots for a solid hour. Really nice guy. Very convenient too as I stay at Eagles when I'm up there so it's right down the road.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Yeah I knew it began with an S. I was in there a couple seasons ago and he worked on my boots for a solid hour. Really nice guy. Very convenient too as I stay at Eagles when I'm up there so it's right down the road.



Just as an fyi, they moved this season to the Mehuron's plaza area. Just a minute down the road, but didn't want you to see a vacant building and think they closed.


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## tumbler (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Seth is the owner. Maybe that's who you are thinking of? I've been to Infinite quite a bit for things other than skis. He seems to be the only one that carries the particular Darn Tough socks that I like. I have no experience with their equipment/service though.



Alpine Options has Darn Tough.  Oh, right.  Infinite is good for some kid clothing stuff that AO might not have.

I will also stick up for them and echo everything that Hawk said. I have been using them for about the same amount of time and get the same level of service, discount, etc.  It sounds like you were looking for an issue with them and overreacted.  I'm sure your phone number was not taped to the demo ski to hold it all week while you were away so they might not have known you had it "reserved"  If they sold the demo ski then it was spring and they were trying to clear out inventory- they don't sell demos during the winter.  Yes, I am loyal to them and they have treated me and my family well.


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Just as an fyi, they moved this season to the Mehuron's plaza area. Just a minute down the road, but didn't want you to see a vacant building and think they closed.



Really? I drove by the day after Christmas and it looked like they were still there but I wasn't looking too closely. Where did they move to in that plaza? I'll be up there the last weekend in January for sure and hopefully for a week at the beginning of February if this trade goes through at eagles. Love it up there


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Alpine Options has Darn Tough.  Oh, right.  Infinite is good for some kid clothing stuff that AO might not have.
> 
> I will also stick up for them and echo everything that Hawk said. I have been using them for about the same amount of time and get the same level of service, discount, etc.  It sounds like you were looking for an issue with them and overreacted.  I'm sure your phone number was not taped to the demo ski to hold it all week while you were away so they might not have known you had it "reserved"  If they sold the demo ski then it was spring and they were trying to clear out inventory- they don't sell demos during the winter.  Yes, I am loyal to them and they have treated me and my family well.



Yes, AO along with everyone else has Darn Tough...just not the particular one I wanted for some reason. Don't ask me why.

I can assure you that I was not "looking for an issue" with them. I had been there before with no issues. Funny you mention that they don't sell demos during the winter because I thought it was a bit early for them to have been selling the demos but figured they would know their business and when to start selling demo skis. It was March 1st and if they had sold it during that week before the weekend that means it was still February when they sold it. Not what I would consider spring (and they still had the ski in stock brand new), but again them selling the ski itself wasn't my issue anyway.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Really? I drove by the day after Christmas and it looked like they were still there but I wasn't looking too closely. Where did they move to in that plaza? I'll be up there the last weekend in January for sure and hopefully for a week at the beginning of February if this trade goes through at eagles. Love it up there



They are 2 doors down from Mehurons next to the drug store.


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They are 2 doors down from Mehurons next to the drug store.



Huh, interesting. They had a prime spot before, wonder why they moved.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Huh, interesting. They had a prime spot before, wonder why they moved.



Cheaper rent would be my guess...

Don't know if it also has anything to do with Travis opening his own board shop (Splinter's Board Shop at the base of the access road).


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Cheaper rent would be my guess...
> 
> Don't know if it also has anything to do with Travis opening his own board shop (Splinter's Board Shop at the base of the access road).



That makes sense. That spot right off of 100 has been a ski shop for as long as I can remember and I've been going there for 30+ years at this point 


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## shadyjay (Jan 11, 2017)

Travis moving on I believe was part of it.  Without the need for a separate boardshop, Infinite could downsize.  

Once upon a time, there used to be a ski shop at the intersection of the Access Rd and German Flats called the Downhill Edge.  There also used to be Sigi Sports in the base area.  And there was Ride On which was the on-mountain snowboard shop during the ASC years. 

Oh yeah.... conditions were superb today... that 2-4" of snow felt like a lot more and was very light up top.  Ellen escaped most of the windhold, as I rode Summit and NRX all afternoon.  GMX opened back up around 2 after being down for a couple of hours.  They did get the "I" going.  Pick of the day had to be either Lookin' Good or Exterm.  And of course, it was largely a ghost town.  Heading back home and passing the LP lots, it was pretty crowded.  Must've been busy on the slopes there with only Bravo and Gate House available.


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## rocks860 (Jan 11, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> Travis moving on I believe was part of it.  Without the need for a separate boardshop, Infinite could downsize.
> 
> Once upon a time, there used to be a ski shop at the intersection of the Access Rd and German Flats called the Downhill Edge.  There also used to be Sigi Sports in the base area.  And there was Ride On which was the on-mountain snowboard shop during the ASC years.
> 
> Oh yeah.... conditions were superb today... that 2-4" of snow felt like a lot more and was very light up top.  Ellen escaped most of the windhold, as I rode Summit and NRX all afternoon.  GMX opened back up around 2 after being down for a couple of hours.  They did get the "I" going.  Pick of the day had to be either Lookin' Good or Exterm.  And of course, it was largely a ghost town.  Heading back home and passing the LP lots, it was pretty crowded.  Must've been busy on the slopes there with only Bravo and Gate House available.



I remember downhill edge very well, had a big ski racer on the side of the building right? I remember that shanty town type area they had where the hotel is now before the built the new lodge, is that where the snowboard shop was?


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## tumbler (Jan 12, 2017)

There was also a Downhill Edge at German Flats and 17 next to the Hyde Away.  Those guys worked wonders on repairing skis.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2017)

tumbler said:


> There was also a Downhill Edge at German Flats and 17 next to the Hyde Away.  Those guys worked wonders on repairing skis.



Wow.  That is going back a ways now.


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## Plowboy (Jan 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  That is going back a ways now.


 There was a ski shop at the bottom of Harris Hill Rd. and 17 called Bigger Sports, Sportive also had a ski and tune shop where the School House Garden is now, Inverness Sports was in the Mad River Green next to the bank building and of course VT North has been around longer than any shop I can think of.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 13, 2017)

Skiied Mt Ellen on Thursday 1/12. Cliffs was riding amazing! Due to the fog, I couldn't see much of anything on any of the higher trails. No rain at all which was nice. It did start raining when we left unfortunately though. Also tried FIS for my first time and aside from the ice cliff right at the beginning, it was actually fun and had some nice challenging moguls to ride completely blind. Not too much ice in general, hoping more terrain opens today and hopefully castle Rock hiking for the weekend!


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> hopefully castle Rock hiking for the weekend!



That's being a bit optimistic. After the thaw/freeze with no new snow I can't imagine CR would be worth skiing at all this weekend and I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them leave CR closed until we get snow.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> That's being a bit optimistic. After the thaw/freeze with no new snow I can't imagine CR would be worth skiing at all this weekend and I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them leave CR closed until we get snow.



Well apparently I'm wrong. CR will be open for hiking. I still find it hard to believe it will be skiing well.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Well apparently I'm wrong. CR will be open for hiking. I still find it hard to believe it will be skiing well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah I really doubt it will ski well but I'll definitely be hiking it in the morning to see how it goes. Thinking Middle Earth will be the best bet for the upper moguls being halfway decent and the lower sections being garbage. But only one way to find out! 

Otherwise, glad some grooming will be done. Lower organ grinder was amazing today under the guns later in the day, best run all day. Birdland, Murphys Glades, and Snowball were actually quite scary today but overall a great day of fast riding down blue squares.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 13, 2017)

The whales on Birdland were made of rock solid unedgeable snow when I was there a couple weeks ago. Thought it looked like dense pow, found out fast it wasn't remotely lol


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 13, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> The whales on Birdland were made of rock solid unedgeable snow when I was there a couple weeks ago. Thought it looked like dense pow, found out fast it wasn't remotely lol



Exactly what I experienced. Looked fun from the lift. Instantly regretted it once I got on that trail. But it made everything else seem awesome that day in comparison!


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Yeah I really doubt it will ski well but I'll definitely be hiking it in the morning to see how it goes. Thinking Middle Earth will be the best bet for the upper moguls being halfway decent and the lower sections being garbage. But only one way to find out!
> .



Actually there is another way to find out. I'll let you check it out and then wait to read about it here 

Just not worth it for me to find out the hard way that it sucks and you're left with no choice but to keep skiing down something that you're not enjoying. Hard bumps aren't my idea of fun. I can wait for some more snow to fall and just entertain myself on the groomers in the meantime.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Actually there is another way to find out. I'll let you check it out and then wait to read about it here
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Yeah you are right, leave all of the skiing to me and you can just stay home =p. 
More trails opened for Saturday. Paradise was an absolute nightmare, but it has a good enough base that some nice powder falling on top of the ice would fix that. I hiked Castle Rock twice that day and it was definitely worth it to me. Bottom sections were sketchy as expected but Castle Rock run and Cotillion at the top had actually rideable moguls. Will check out Middle Earth today. Needs more snow but was acceptable for my low standards. 

Organ grinder under the guns was still the best. Downspout had the same fresh powder riding. I usually dislike the fake stuff but it was riding really nice and they haven't groomed it yet. So it offers some nice true powder skiing.


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## Tin (Jan 15, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Yeah you are right, leave all of the skiing to me and you can just stay home =p.
> More trails opened for Saturday. Paradise was an absolute nightmare, but it has a good enough base that some nice powder falling on top of the ice would fix that. I hiked Castle Rock twice that day and it was definitely worth it to me. Bottom sections were sketchy as expected but Castle Rock run and Cotillion at the top had actually rideable moguls. Will check out Middle Earth today. Needs more snow but was acceptable for my low standards.
> 
> Organ grinder under the guns was still the best. Downspout had the same fresh powder riding. I usually dislike the fake stuff but it was riding really nice and they haven't groomed it yet. So it offers some nice true powder skiing.



For them to open Castlerock there is clearly enough snow remaining at elevation, Liftline has some of the biggest waterbars around. I'm assuming MRG still has snow above the midstation but nothing below it.


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Yeah you are right, leave all of the skiing to me and you can just stay home =p.



Who said anything about staying home? I just said I would skip CR. I was pleasantly surprised by Sugarbush this weekend and think mountain ops really did a nice job. While they may be only making snow on a handful of trails at a time...they are absolutely hammering them with a nice quality snow.

Downspout skied really nicely on Saturday with the ungroomed gunpowder. Today it was nice again this morning even after being groomed. Lower Organgrinder skied nice under the guns yesterday. Steins was mostly good under the guns yesterday (although there were still a few icy spots you had to watch out for under the snow). Today Stein's was skiing really nice after they turned the guns off. Organgrinder this morning had near 0 visibility at the top so I cut in off the traverse from Jester. The snow was sweet, but visibility was still a bit of a challenge, although better than it had been at the very top. I felt like at times I had to almost duck under the snowgun towers as the piles were so tall. Amazing how much snow they can pump out with cold temps.

I'm still not buying it that CR was worth it, but after skiing it in December with beautiful powder/packed powder conditions, I might be spoiled and have set my standards a bit higher. :razz:

The snow squalls this morning were a pleasant surprise as is the shift in the forecast for mid-week where it looks like they may now get 6+ inches of snow instead of the unfrozen stuff in the forecast just a few days ago. Still a long way to go to getting the mountain back in peak shape, but it is still a positive turn of events to help get us through things until the pattern changes later this month.


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 16, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I'm still not buying it that CR was worth it, but after skiing it in December with beautiful powder/packed powder conditions, I might be spoiled and have set my standards a bit higher. :razz:


Agreed, my standards are so much higher after skiing this past December. So yeah, it's not really worth it unless you have low standards lol. But I could not have a complete trip without at least one run down Castle Rock. 

Anyways, Mt Ellen rode even better on Sunday after the quick refresh of an inch of snow in the morning. Cliffs continued to be really good and I had fun on Exterminator, Encore, Hammerhead and all of the blue trails. Best section all day though was the woods between Looking Good and Rim Run. Actually that was my favorite stuff out of the whole trip.


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## kingslug (Jan 16, 2017)

Guess I should have went....


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 17, 2017)

Skiied Mount Ellen again on Monday. Figured I would try Exterminator again and ended up in the woods off to the left side (Exterminator woods?). This was like a super bonus level! I don't really want to tell anyone about the secret stash I found in there but trust me, it's worth it. Really nice moguls, deep powder, and fun trees. Was quite the treat after many days of ice. 
https://i.imgur.com/p24YT2D.jpg


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## WWF-VT (Jan 17, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Skiied Mount Ellen again on Monday. Figured I would try Exterminator again and ended up in the woods off to the left side (Exterminator woods?). This was like a super bonus level! I don't really want to tell anyone about the secret stash I found in there but trust me, it's worth it. Really nice moguls, deep powder, and fun trees. Was quite the treat after many days of ice.
> https://i.imgur.com/p24YT2D.jpg




Congratulations….you “found” Exterminator Woods


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Skiied Mount Ellen again on Monday. Figured I would try Exterminator again and ended up in the woods off to the left side (Exterminator woods?). This was like a super bonus level! I don't really want to tell anyone about the secret stash I found in there but trust me, it's worth it. Really nice moguls, deep powder, and fun trees. Was quite the treat after many days of ice.
> https://i.imgur.com/p24YT2D.jpg


2 things 1) you just told everyone. 2) that is not a big secret.

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## Tin (Jan 17, 2017)

Yellow license plate crew finding the stashes!


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2017)

kingslug said:


> Guess I should have went....



I'd much rather go, and wish I hadn't, then not have gone and wish I had....

I can honestly say that over the years I've had more more days that I was expecting to be crappy turn into decent days than actually end up being crappy.  For full disclosure, I will readily admit that I'm genuinely pretty happy ANY day I'm out on the hill, whether it's on a WROD or full out, 100% open, a foot plus of dry fresh everywhere


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Congratulations….you “found” Exterminator Woods



LOL...a secret stash that is marked on the trail maps! Very sneaky!


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2017)

Tin said:


> Yellow license plate crew finding the stashes!



Coming from a white plate guy- oh the irony!


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## Whitey (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> LOL...a secret stash that is marked on the trail maps! Very sneaky!



You guys are being too hard on Duncan.    I think his point was that no one had any expectations of getting into the woods this weekend or if they did - it being any good.   He found some woods that skied well and no one else was in there - good for him.   

I was at Bolton Valley 2 yrs ago on a bitterly cold (like -10 at the base cold) day.    It was rock hard all over and not skiing that great.   I dropped into one of the glades runs (Adam's Paradise, I think) and it was really good.   No one was skiing the woods that day so it really felt like I "discovered" something that day even though it was  marked trail.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Whitey said:


> You guys are being too hard on Duncan.    I think his point was that no one had any expectations of getting into the woods this weekend or if they did - it being any good.   He found some woods that skied well and no one else was in there - good for him.
> 
> I was at Bolton Valley 2 yrs ago on a bitterly cold (like -10 at the base cold) day.    It was rock hard all over and not skiing that great.   I dropped into one of the glades runs (Adam's Paradise, I think) and it was really good.   No one was skiing the woods that day so it really felt like I "discovered" something that day even though it was  marked trail.


Well that is a different perspective.  It did not come off that way.  Sounded like a secret stash post.

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## Duncanator24 (Jan 17, 2017)

Whitey said:


> You guys are being too hard on Duncan.    I think his point was that no one had any expectations of getting into the woods this weekend or if they did - it being any good.   He found some woods that skied well and no one else was in there - good for him.
> 
> I was at Bolton Valley 2 yrs ago on a bitterly cold (like -10 at the base cold) day.    It was rock hard all over and not skiing that great.   I dropped into one of the glades runs (Adam's Paradise, I think) and it was really good.   No one was skiing the woods that day so it really felt like I "discovered" something that day even though it was  marked trail.


Thanks, yeah this is exactly what I meant. I didn't even see anyone on Exterminator let alone in the woods. So it really felt like a hidden treasure. Little tongue in cheek to say it's a "secret". I post here to let people know how it is, just trying to help since that's why I read here anyways. The snow report is not exactly an unbiased opinion so this is nice to see "on the ground" reporting. I highly recommend checking out the stash there, it was fun!


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Thanks, yeah this is exactly what I meant. I didn't even see anyone on Exterminator let alone in the woods. So it really felt like a hidden treasure. Little tongue in cheek to say it's a "secret". I post here to let people know how it is, just trying to help since that's why I read here anyways. The snow report is not exactly an unbiased opinion so this is nice to see "on the ground" reporting. I highly recommend checking out the stash there, it was fun!



Hah...hard to tell sometimes just reading something without having verbal tones and facial expressions.

I agree about the snow-report. Years ago it was much better. There's very little real substance to it about the conditions themselves these days.


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Hah...hard to tell sometimes just reading something without having verbal tones and facial expressions.
> 
> I agree about the snow-report. Years ago it was much better. There's very little real substance to it about the conditions themselves these days.



That's why I read the MRG one to get the real story on snow conditions and fill in the gaps on the SB one.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

tumbler said:


> That's why I read the MRG one to get the real story on snow conditions and fill in the gaps on the SB one.



Yup...I do the same. MRG is a great example of brutally honest snow reporting.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yup...I do the same. MRG is a great example of brutally honest snow reporting.



Sadly it requires them to be open .


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 17, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Sadly it requires them to be open .



Shots fired! But so true. I can't imagine the snow is much different over there, I guess they just have higher standards for staying open. Plus blowing almost no snow probably doesn't help.


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## Jully (Jan 17, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Plus blowing almost no snow probably doesn't help.



That. And grooming.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 17, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Shots fired! But so true. I can't imagine the snow is much different over there, I guess they just have higher standards for staying open. Plus blowing almost no snow probably doesn't help.



No shot intended, I love MRG! I sometimes ski at Mt. Ellen in the morning and then go have lunch at General Stark's Pub. It's more of a lament. I'm counting things to turn around for them and us by the end of the month.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm sure the top of the mountain at MRG is skiable...the problem is the bottom. You can't ski the top without there being enough snow on the bottom. Sugarbush has their lower elevation natural trails closed. They have snowmaking though on a good portion of their lower mountain trails which allows them plenty of trails to keep open, while MRG is much more limited with what they make snow on so needs more help from mother nature at the lower elevations to be able to open (or stay open).


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 18, 2017)

Castle Rock is spinning today, guess the snow fall from this storm is pretty good! Maybe I will have to head up again this coming weekend before the rain comes again.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2017)

I did the 8 to 12 shift this morning at Mt Ellen and it was a helluva day to be on the mountain


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

Meanwhile MRG is warning people not to skin up while they are closed as they say the base is icy and dangerous. The video Sugarbush posted on Facebook of Cotillion looked awfully nice though.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

Looks like MRG had a better chance to re-asses conditions. They are now re-opening tomorrow.

I'm jealous WWF. I'm stuck working and looking at webcams and forums wishing I was on the slopes. It may not be too much snow, but I bet it skied really nice especially with no one around mid-week.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2017)

Was the best 4+" of snow that I have skied in a while....it was really quiet for the first hour.  Second run of the day was Northstar which was perfect surfing density snow.


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## shadyjay (Jan 18, 2017)

Brambles was my pick of the day today, definitely worth the traverse over there via Northway.  Thank god I had a couple skiers with me to "slingshot" me along.  Even braved Which Way, which was very nice.  The base on that run is still ice but you didn't hit it... some nice dense snow, just what we needed.  Well, another 1'+ would do wonders as well.  Upper Lookin' Good was the worst run, and even that wasn't terrible... better than just about any run last year.  Cliffs was nice as well.

Driving by the LP parking lot in the AM, the cars were stacking up.  ME not nearly as much.  And it showed.  I bet the freshies at LP got skied off by noon.


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## rocojerry (Jan 18, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Was the best 4+" of snow that I have skied in a while....it was really quiet for the first hour.  Second run of the day was Northstar which was perfect surfing density snow.



Nice!!

hope by the weekend the mtn is still in good shape, looking forward to my first Sugarbush days!


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## WWF-VT (Jan 20, 2017)

Skiing above the clouds was the place to be at Mt Ellen this morning


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## Tin (Jan 20, 2017)

Hell of a picture! Well done


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2017)

Nice picture WWF! Wish I was there Friday to be above the clouds with blue skies above like that. Here was Sunday:


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2017)

We're going up this weekend, likely ski Sunday and Monday. Hope this week is more towards the snow end of the spectrum than rain


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2017)

Any weather gurus know what early to mid march is supposed to be like this year? Trying to trade a late march time share week and the only thing it looks like is available is 3/11-3/18


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## xwhaler (Jan 23, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Any weather gurus know what early to mid march is supposed to be like this year? Trying to trade a late march time share week and the only thing it looks like is available is 3/11-3/18
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No idea about long range wx but if I were picking the ideal week (in any season) to be up in N VT on a ski trip I'd be picking Mid March. Early to Mid March is when we always schedule our big trips up to N VT as the trees are usually in, the sun angle it a bit higher, days getting longer and not quite as cold.
To me 3/11-3/18 sounds like a fantastic week to plan on....better than the last week in March for sure.


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> No idea about long range wx but if I were picking the ideal week (in any season) to be up in N VT on a ski trip I'd be picking Mid March. Early to Mid March is when we always schedule our big trips up to N VT as the trees are usually in, the sun angle it a bit higher, days getting longer and not quite as cold.
> To me 3/11-3/18 sounds like a fantastic week to plan on....better than the last week in March for sure.



I was there 3/18-3/25 probably 5 or 6 years ago. The week before it snowed something like 3 feet but by the wednesday of the week I was there it was 60 degrees on the mountain and 83 in Burlington. As long as it isn't a repeat of that I'm fine with it


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2017)

There's really no way to predict with any certainty. Generally speaking mid-March is an excellent time to go. When I used to plan only one or two "big" trips a year, that was always the time I tried to go to VT.


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## dlague (Jan 23, 2017)

Hopefully no scorcher month like we had a few years back.

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## Duncanator24 (Jan 27, 2017)

Mountain was amazing today after the fresh powder refresh that came down Thursday. There was fresh snow on every trail and everything skiied well. Castle Rock was my favorite, particularly Middle Earth. Even the lower sections were excellent! Very happy how the lower elevation woods are doing too, complete turnaround from my last trip two weeks ago. Looking forward to another couple days of snow and exploring my favorite spots for powder stashes.


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## Plowboy (Jan 28, 2017)

Found this on FB for those who use the Roxbury Gap Road.  https://www.facebook.com/RoxburyGapStat/


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## WWF-VT (Jan 28, 2017)

6" of fresh snow and first tracks on Semi Tough made for a fun day today at Mt Ellen


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Looks awesome. I'll be at Lincoln peak tomorrow and Monday with my gf unless we make it over to mount Ellen at some point


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2017)

ME was great today. Semi tough was fun but I didn't hit it as early as wwf did. First tracks looked sweet. I had some nice untracked on elbow though early. And no lift lines at ME! There was a line of cars driving up the access road to LP when I was driving to ME this morning. Looked busy the couple times I checked the webcams. 


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## Duncanator24 (Jan 28, 2017)

Such amazing snow today. Best day of skiing ever. Found the best of the fresh stuff in the woods. Paradise Woods, Slide Brook, and castle Rock all had great stuff. But even the lower mountain stuff was just amazing, everywhere. I'm so tired from all of the powder, but it was so worth it. This was definitely "hero" snow because it makes everyone look good!


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## WWF-VT (Jan 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> ME was great today. Semi tough was fun but I didn't hit it as early as wwf did. First tracks looked sweet. I had some nice untracked on elbow though early. And no lift lines at ME! There was a line of cars driving up the access road to LP when I was driving to ME this morning. Looked busy the couple times I checked the webcams.



Really a good day at Mt Ellen.  I took just one pic on Semi Tough, my second lap before 8:30 was Brambles.  I got first tracks on Elbow and hit amazing snow on Lower FIS early in the AM.


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Really a good day at Mt Ellen.  I took just one pic on Semi Tough, my second lap before 8:30 was Brambles.  I got first tracks on Elbow and hit amazing snow on Lower FIS early in the AM.



I took a few pics later on but can't upload them until I get home. I must've not been far behind you on elbow as there were only a handful of tracks when I went down it. It was awesome floating down elbow. 


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2017)

Spent a lot of the day with my gf on the lower part of the mountain. That said the snow on snowball and spring fling was great. Took a trip up heavens  gate and paradise was pretty brutal. Super icy. I think it was actually better on 12/26 when I skied it. Back at it tomorrow, expect to see a lot less people 


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2017)

Did eat at peasant tonight though, absolutely delicious


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Did eat at peasant tonight though, absolutely delicious



I ate there last night. Delicious as usual!


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2017)

Had the pâté and the pasta bolognese, so good


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2017)

A couple pics from Saturday at Ellen:


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## Griswold (Jan 29, 2017)

A couple pics from Saturday.  Awesome weekend!


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## frapcap (Jan 30, 2017)

^ Freggin- WOW.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 30, 2017)

yeah... those don't suck!


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## kbird (Jan 31, 2017)

Killer, thanks for sharing! I hope the fluff keeps coming, my trip is slated for this weekend 2/4-2/5 8)


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2017)

Yesterday was very nice. Once again snowball/spring fling had amazing snow and even less traffic without valley house running. I skied north lynx yesterday and It was kind of icy up there. There's a good amount of snow on the mountain but underneath is pretty much solid ice so it's tough when it gets scraped off a bit. They could still use a big storm to build it up a bit


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## Los (Jan 31, 2017)

Any recommendations on some easier glades to hit? We're going Friday to burn our Warren Miller vouchers, but we've gotten soft with all the time we've spent this year at Bretton Woods... I just don't want us to drop into anything too gnarly...


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## benski (Jan 31, 2017)

Los said:


> Any recommendations on some easier glades to hit? We're going Friday to burn our Warren Miller vouchers, but we've gotten soft with all the time we've spent this year at Bretton Woods... I just don't want us to drop into anything too gnarly...



I would try Eden and Sap line at south or Semi-tough at north. You could also try Walts wood's or Brambles too, but both have very tempting riverbeds.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 1, 2017)

Los said:


> Any recommendations on some easier glades to hit? We're going Friday to burn our Warren Miller vouchers, but we've gotten soft with all the time we've spent this year at Bretton Woods... I just don't want us to drop into anything too gnarly...



If you are going to Mt Ellen, there is an unnamed section between Rim Run and Looking Good that is amazing. I use that as a warmup before heading to Exterminator woods. At Lincoln, I would definitely also recommend Eden all the way down to the bottom. There's also a pretty great easier section off of North Lynx, off the right side of Birch but that was real thin coverage by the end of this past weekend.


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## gostan (Feb 1, 2017)

The area to the right of Birch is known as Apple Orchard


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2017)

gostan said:


> The area to the right of Birch is known as Apple Orchard



I heard someone talking about this this weekend, how do you get to it?


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## Los (Feb 1, 2017)

Thanks gents! Much appreciated.


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

I'm interested in quite the opposite of Los, what are more difficult glades in terms of pitch or with drops? The map isn't much help really.


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## benski (Feb 1, 2017)

kbird said:


> I'm interested in quite the opposite of Los, what are more difficult glades in terms of pitch or with drops? The map isn't much help really.



Except for sap line all the on map glades next to blacks are more difficult.


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## bumpcrasher (Feb 1, 2017)

kbird said:


> I'm interested in quite the opposite of Los, what are more difficult glades in terms of pitch or with drops? The map isn't much help really.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> KBird: if you are looking for steep glades, the map should help a bit (I hope).  Take a look at the glades off Super Bravo and they get increasingly steeper from looker’s left to right (Eden, Gangster’s Grotto/Sap Line, Christmas Tree, Stein’s Woods and Egan’s).  Lew’s Line is also pretty steep and mellows out towards the bottom.  Also, the woods off Heaven's Gate are all pretty steep.
> On Mt Ellen, the lower mountain has more open woods/less pitch than the upper mountain (Bravo and Exterm Woods are pretty steep).  For more off-map stuff, well, I really don’t want to put it online but hook up with a friendly local:razz::razz:


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

benski said:


> Except for sap line all the on map glades next to blacks are more difficult.


Thanks, I figured as much but then again I've never been there before.



bumpcrasher said:


> KBird: if you are looking for steep glades, the map should help a bit (I hope).  Take a look at the glades off Super Bravo and they get increasingly steeper from looker’s left to right (Eden, Gangster’s Grotto/Sap Line, Christmas Tree, Stein’s Woods and Egan’s).  Lew’s Line is also pretty steep and mellows out towards the bottom.  Also, the woods off Heaven's Gate are all pretty steep.
> On Mt Ellen, the lower mountain has more open woods/less pitch than the upper mountain (Bravo and Exterm Woods are pretty steep).  For more off-map stuff, well, I really don’t want to put it online but hook up with a friendly local:razz::razz:



Thanks for the reply also Bump! I know, it's a faux pas to point out secret stashes. If I had to guess, you're hinting at Church. I know where that is and would love to check it out, but I doubt the conditions would be favorable enough to try and ski it. I'm vaguely aware of some other stashes but of course as you said, it would be easier to find them with some locals :wink:

Minus the glades, in no particular order my must hit list is… (1) CASTLEROCK: all diamonds, especially lifeline and rumble (2): LINCOLN Paradise, Ripcord, Steins (3) ELLEN: fis, Exterminator.

Any other suggestions trail or glade wise?


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## benski (Feb 1, 2017)

kbird said:


> Thanks, I figured as much but then again I've never been there before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't bother with Steins unless its groomed or soft, iciest bumps on the mountain. Go for Moonshine, the mall or Twist instead. Spills, and Bravo are also really nice. FIS is hit or miss. Ski lower rim run and take a at FIS and Black diamond before taking the lift up there.


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## skifree (Feb 1, 2017)

very nice


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

Thanks advice benski! Noticed you're in Bingo, me too!



			
				Plowboy said:
			
		

> 2 Pics of my son at Mt. Ellen yesterday. The upper snowpack is looking great!!!


WOW plowboy, AMAZING!:-o


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2017)

kbird said:


> Minus the glades, in no particular order my must hit list is… (1) CASTLEROCK: all diamonds, especially lifeline and rumble (2): LINCOLN Paradise, Ripcord, Steins (3) ELLEN: fis, Exterminator.
> 
> Any other suggestions trail or glade wise?





benski said:


> Don't bother with Steins unless its groomed or soft, iciest bumps on the mountain. Go for Moonshine, the mall or Twist instead. Spills, and Bravo are also really nice. FIS is hit or miss. Ski lower rim run and take a at FIS and Black diamond before taking the lift up there.



I'll echo a bit of what benski said. Steins is fun if there's fresh powder, but otherwise I would expect the bumps to be icy as it has not been groomed since they last made snow on it and has some very irregular piles and bumps at the moment. Ripcord I personally don't even understand why that one is really still rated a double-black. On weekends it is almost always groomed. Fun for a steep groomer, but hit it early in the morning before it gets scraped down to hardpack.

Don't overlook any of the natural snow single Diamonds (or even blues). 

At Lincoln - Moonshine, Twist, the Mall and Spillsville are all good natural snow runs. Domino can be fun too.
At Mt Ellen - Hammerhead and Tumbler are good. Lower FIS (if you don't mind a traverse at the bottom) can also hold up well much longer than other trails due to lower skier traffic. Walt's and Semi-tough on the Inverness side are two natural snow trails that are a ton of fun as well.


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

Thanks CDSkier!

I know this will sound super noobbish, but does SB rent pow skis? I oogled it and even looked up their "list", but no mention of anything pow rocker specific. I only own 2 pair of TT Lines and those are skiny traditional camber skis.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2017)

I don't know what their current demo fleet consists of, but in the past I know they had the Volkl Mantra as one of their demo choices at the on-mountain shop. Then there's always numerous other shops in the area that demo skis as well (if you need recommendations on those other shops, go back several pages in this thread as we discussed it not too long ago).


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## benski (Feb 1, 2017)

kbird said:


> Thanks CDSkier!
> 
> I know this will sound super noobbish, but does SB rent pow skis? I oogled it and even looked up their "list", but no mention of anything pow rocker specific. I only own 2 pair of TT Lines and those are skiny tradition camber skis.



Mountainside ski shop is within walking distance of the ski area, Alpine Options and VT North are on the access road.


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

Cool thanks guys, good to know!

Unless it's super deep in the woods, I probably won't need to bother. Almost bought a pair of Soul 7's to take with me, but with all the thaw/freeze cycles I couldn't justify it after all that.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2017)

I know infinite demoed a bunch of different skis but that was a few years ago and before they moved. I demoed some fatter libertys from them a few years ago


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## tumbler (Feb 1, 2017)

I think you'll be fine on the sticks you got.


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## skifree (Feb 1, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I think you'll be fine on the sticks you got.



Agree. Just rip what you got

Ripped that place on skinny 207's in the day


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## KD7000 (Feb 1, 2017)

Last weekend...


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## KD7000 (Feb 1, 2017)

Goofing around in the woods off Inverness lift.  Either Semi-tough or Brambles, can't remember which.  Sooooo much good snow in the woods.


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## kbird (Feb 1, 2017)

Diggin' that 1st shot KD7000! :beer: 

I may just reconsider skipping semi and brambles if the base is typically good around inverness.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 2, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I heard someone talking about this this weekend, how do you get to it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hah, neato thats a fun name. You just go down Birch and make a right. There are a few openings into the trees. You gotta go down a bit though to make sure you don't end up in the chute heading towards castle rock (that probably has a name too). Although that was a fun section too once I realized I wasn't heading down the wrong side of the mountain into an abyss.


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## benski (Feb 2, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Hah, neato thats a fun name. You just go down Birch and make a right. There are a few openings into the trees. You gotta go down a bit though to make sure you don't end up in the chute heading towards castle rock (that probably has a name too). Although that was a fun section too once I realized I wasn't heading down the wrong side of the mountain into an abyss.



The one toward Castlerock is called the Emerald forrest.


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 2, 2017)

I haven't been to Mt Ellen in a while. Just a curiosity question: If you were trying to lap runs like Brambles, Semi-Tough, Inverness, and Walts, would it be quicker to use the slow Inverness chair, or take the longer, but quicker GMX and then Northway over to the Inverness area? I can't remember if you are skiing or traversing/poling/skating on Northway.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 2, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> I haven't been to Mt Ellen in a while. Just a curiosity question: If you were trying to lap runs like Brambles, Semi-Tough, Inverness, and Walts, would it be quicker to use the slow Inverness chair, or take the longer, but quicker GMX and then Northway over to the Inverness area? I can't remember if you are skiing or traversing/poling/skating on Northway.



Before the Inverness chair runs at 9 AM take the Northway traverse. It’s an easy glide with minimal skating required.  If GMVS has both Inverness and Brambles in use for training / races you can always ski Walts and Semi Tough from the Inverness chair.


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 2, 2017)

[QUOTE=WWF

Thank you, but I meant on a weekend, and both chairs are open, GMVS is not using it, and lines are equal.


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## slatham (Feb 2, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> WWF
> 
> Thank you said:
> 
> ...


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## WWF-VT (Feb 2, 2017)

> Thank you, but I meant on a weekend, and both chairs are open, GMVS is not using it, and lines are equal.



What’s a line at the GMX or Inverness chair?  Both are practically ski on - even on the weekends.   Take the Inverness chair if it’s running – it takes less energy to go down the mountain than across it.

I did the Northway today.  It was packed down and I think I poled three times.  Semi Tough Woods was pretty much untouched and there was fresh corduroy on Brambles at 2:30 PM.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2017)

slatham said:


> Inverness for sure. And those trials  and neighboring woods are such great terrain and underused IMO.



Completely agree...on all counts. The first time I ever skied Walts 12 or 13 years ago I said "wow, this is one of the coolest green trails I've ever skied".


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## bushpilot (Feb 2, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Completely agree...on all counts. The first time I ever skied Walts 12 or 13 years ago I said "wow, this is one of the coolest green trails I've ever skied".



My son and I LOVE Walt's trail! 

Skied paradise yesterday and it was EPIC! The snow is so much deeper than you would expect.


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> My son and I LOVE Walt's trail!
> 
> Skied paradise yesterday and it was EPIC! The snow is so much deeper than you would expect.



Really? When I skied paradise on Sunday it was pretty rough 


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## KD7000 (Feb 2, 2017)

kbird said:


> Diggin' that 1st shot KD7000! :beer:


  Thanks!  Mt. Ellen was just so much fun last weekend.  The snow above the "frost" line was remarkable.  And I edited my post above, that shot of the woods was off the Inverness lift.  Either Semi-Tough or Brambles.  Both had extraordinarily good snow.  Tracked out in some spots but the coverage was deep enough that you could find fresh lines. 

 Even more terrain available if you are willing to landscape a bit, and not hugely concerned with your bases.


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## bushpilot (Feb 2, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Really? When I skied paradise on Sunday it was pretty rough
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Over a foot of snow has fallen since then. It was butterlicious! Almost went back again today. Couldn't stop thinking about it.

The top part before you get to the glades was a little bumpy and scratchy but after that.......


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 3, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Over a foot of snow has fallen since then. It was butterlicious! Almost went back again today. Couldn't stop thinking about it.
> 
> The top part before you get to the glades was a little bumpy and scratchy but after that.......



This is exactly how was all Saturday and Sunday was on Paradise. The trail itself was garbage but Paradise woods were truly sublime. And with more snow I have to imagine it's continued to ride really well. Wish I could go back there this weekend!


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2017)

I-Yai-Yai.    can we send any more people in the woods boys.  You know the code.  if you are good enough to find it then it's all goods  PM him if you have to provide details but please don't post to the general public.  You just sent every newb into that area.  Good work.


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## kbird (Feb 3, 2017)

Heading to SB very soon for the weekend, staying @ SB Inn, skiing both days - super stoked! :beer:


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I-Yai-Yai.    can we send any more people in the woods boys.  You know the code.  if you are good enough to find it then it's all goods  PM him if you have to provide details but please don't post to the general public.  You just sent every newb into that area.  Good work.



Yeah all those newbs who take the time to search the internet for a skiing forum, register for the forums and then navigate to to the 30th page of the sugarbush thread....


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## djd66 (Feb 3, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Yeah all those newbs who take the time to search the internet for a skiing forum, register for the forums and then navigate to to the 30th page of the sugarbush thread....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





+1  - all the places being talked about are already on SB's fricken map.


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## cdskier (Feb 3, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Yeah all those newbs who take the time to search the internet for a skiing forum, register for the forums and then navigate to to the 30th page of the sugarbush thread....



I was wondering how many newbs really are lurking and will see that too. I don't think anything mentioned is really that much of a secret. I knew about them all even without having been in some of them.


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## cdskier (Feb 3, 2017)

djd66 said:


> +1  - all the places being talked about are already on SB's fricken map.



There are a couple that were mentioned that aren't on map, but I still don't think they are big secrets as they are pretty well known.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2017)

Well if they didn't know then they do now.  Just saying that the traffic in these places is getting heavier every year.  It has always been the silent rule that these things wee not discussed on the internet.  Hey do what you want.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2017)

djd66 said:


> +1  - all the places being talked about are already on SB's fricken map.



Show me the orchard or Emerald Forest on the map my friend.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 3, 2017)

kbird said:


> Heading to SB very soon for the weekend, staying @ SB Inn, skiing both days - super stoked! :beer:



Today’s snow report is way off.   I just got in from skiing at Mt Ellen and it’s been a white out for hours.  Easily 10+” of blower powder up high and it’s still snowing at 2:30 PM!


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Today’s snow report is way off.   I just got in from skiing at Mt Ellen and it’s been a white out for hours.  Easily 10+” of blower powder up high and it’s still snowing at 2:30 PM!



Let's just have this keep up for another month and I'll be very happy


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2017)

bummed that I deemed this weekend to be the "quality time with gf at home and Sunday day trip to the Catskills" weekend. NoVT looking prime as fuck right now


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## WWF-VT (Feb 3, 2017)

Lower FIS mid morning today:







Brambles was "closed"....I didn't see my skis the whole way down:






Awesome sleeper powder day at MT Ellen


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## benski (Feb 3, 2017)

Brambles is often closed due to the exit being obstructed by the race course. It reopens when the race course is cleaned up at the end of the day. Inverness is a good place to end the day for this reason.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 3, 2017)

benski said:


> Brambles is often closed due to the exit being obstructed by the race course. It reopens when the race course is cleaned up at the end of the day. Inverness is a good place to end the day for this reason.



They have been closing it more because there are gates and training on Brambles.  Today it was a ghost town on the whole Inverness area and the chair wasn't running.  I know where I'll be headed at 8 AM tomorrow.....


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## bushpilot (Feb 3, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> They have been closing it more because there are gates and training on Brambles.  Today it was a ghost town on the whole Inverness area and the chair wasn't running.  I know where I'll be headed at 8 AM tomorrow.....



I'll be there at 7:45 then :razz:


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## Los (Feb 3, 2017)

Damn did I pick the right day to use our warden miller vouchers. WOW. Probably our best day ever. I still can't believe it. I'll try to add a few more words later and maybe some pics...


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## Edd (Feb 3, 2017)

Los said:


> Damn did I pick the right day to use our warden miller vouchers. WOW. Probably our best day ever. I still can't believe it. I'll try to add a few more words later and maybe some pics...



Please do! I've only skied Sugarbush a few times. A surprise foot of fresh at Mt Ellen sounds like a great time.


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## djd66 (Feb 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Show me the orchard or Emerald Forest on the map my friend.



You have 1,000 Blazers skiing in there every weekend, (that 1,000 families every year) - trust me everyone knows about it.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 4, 2017)

djd66 said:


> You have 1,000 Blazers skiing in there every weekend, (that 1,000 families every year) - trust me everyone knows about it.



And either way, the majority of people on the mountain just want to hit groomers and maybe ski down castle rock a couple times. The people going in the woods are few and far in between, we dont have to worry about the snow getting skiied off back there. Besides, if you really want the good stuff, you are gonna go over to MRG anyways.


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## Tin (Feb 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Show me the orchard or Emerald Forest on the map my friend.




The Orchard? Come on, nothing special there. That other one though, damn.


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## Tin (Feb 4, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> The people going in the woods are few and far in between, we dont have to worry about the snow getting skiied off back there.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2017)

djd66 said:


> You have 1,000 Blazers skiing in there every weekend, (that 1,000 families every year) - trust me everyone knows about it.



I think posting about it in a forum like this maybe accounts for 1% of the increase in traffic. 99% of the increase is due to things more like what you are mentioning. You also have a general increase in interest in tree skiing combined with a very open woods skiing policy at SB. People are just naturally exploring and following tracks into the woods when they see them. And then you have word of mouth. Forums are the least of the worries for adding traffic.



Duncanator24 said:


> And either way, the majority of people on the mountain just want to hit groomers and maybe ski down castle rock a couple times. The people going in the woods are few and far in between, we dont have to worry about the snow getting skiied off back there.



I don't agree with that at all. I think at Sugarbush you have a huge number of people that are interested in much more than just groomers. I also see tons of people in the woods, so saying they are few and far between is definitely not accurate.


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## Hawk (Feb 6, 2017)

Whatever guys. it is a free country so post what you want.  The time honored tradition was word of mouth and nothing on the internet.  But since everybody needs to prove they know everything, post away.  This generations need to be so inclusive baffles me.


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## Hawk (Feb 6, 2017)

djd66 said:


> You have 1,000 Blazers skiing in there every weekend, (that 1,000 families every year) - trust me everyone knows about it.



There are 43 blazers in the program.  So slightly less that 1000. LOL.   I will agree that they go everywhere and track the crap out of a lot of places.  This weekend I saw them in a place that I never thought I would never see them.  I guess it is frustrating for myself and others that spend so much time in the woods maintaining those lines in the summer but it is what it is.  At least they have trained people overseeing them.  I can't tell you how many people I saw this weekend in the woods way over their heads and by themselves.


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## mikec142 (Feb 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Completely agree...on all counts. The first time I ever skied Walts 12 or 13 years ago I said "wow, this is one of the coolest green trails I've ever skied".



I haven't skied it in a while, but I remember President's Day weekend probably three years ago and it was medium sized powdery moguls for the entire run.  I was exhausted after doing it once.  Really a treat.


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Excellent area, wish I lived closer so I could ski SB more! The upper elevation trails felt too windswept for me so I stuck to blues that had better coverage. Skied both summits, Lincoln on Saturday and Ellen on Sunday. I would've enjoyed skiing more glades than we did, but I was content none the less.

Very beautiful scenery, photos seriously just don't do it justice. Hoping to make it back there in the spring time for sure. I certainly would love to walk out on my balcony every morning and see this…


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

A few more from this weekend, it was hard not to just stand there and simply zone out to all that beauty :-o


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## djd66 (Feb 6, 2017)

Hawk said:


> There are 43 blazers in the program.  So slightly less that 1000. LOL.   I will agree that they go everywhere and track the crap out of a lot of places.  This weekend I saw them in a place that I never thought I would never see them.  I guess it is frustrating for myself and others that spend so much time in the woods maintaining those lines in the summer but it is what it is.  At least they have trained people overseeing them.  I can't tell you how many people I saw this weekend in the woods way over their heads and by themselves.



There are 50 blazer groups with apprx 10-15 kids/group- most of them do go in the woods.  Maybe my 1000 number was off - but its way more than 43 (I assume you are referring the the Mountaineering Blazer Group)  Anyway - I have no issue with the kids in the woods and could care less who goes in there.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2017)

Glad you enjoyed kbird! It surely is a beautiful mountain. I always love the view of Allyn's lodge and the summit when you get off the Super Bravo chair. It never gets old.


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## benski (Feb 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Glad you enjoyed kbird! It surely is a beautiful mountain. I always love the view of Allyn's lodge and the summit when you get off the Super Bravo chair. It never gets old.



Its my phone home-screen background.


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## Griswold (Feb 6, 2017)

I really wish they would get rid of the chairs in the gate house bag storage room.  I'm tired of going in there at the end of the day and getting looks and attitude from people who have to move so I can get to my bag, like it's their own personal changing room. There's has been plenty of seats open in the lodge each time this has happened.  Rant over.


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Glad you enjoyed kbird! It surely is a beautiful mountain. I always love the view of Allyn's lodge and the summit when you get off the Super Bravo chair. It never gets old.



Yeah it is! It's nothing like what we have around here. There was a really good vibe there too, and that says a lot about a place!



benski said:


> Its my phone home-screen background.


Are you using my photo from this weekend or a different one? I don't mind, I was just curious.

I wanted to take more photos, but my phone didn't like the cold lol


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

Here's my Lincoln Base Pano I put together…


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2017)

kbird said:


> Yeah it is! It's nothing like what we have around here. There was a really good vibe there too, and that says a lot about a place!



Yes, the vibe of the mountain and the entire Mad River Valley area is awesome.



> I wanted to take more photos, but my phone didn't like the cold lol



I use a portable USB charging stick plugged into my phone when on the mountain...otherwise the battery dies in no time. I really only use it for GPS on the mountain though (or checking the webcams). I usually have a separate camera with me for pictures. I bought a new camera back in the summer and am loving the pictures I'm able to take with it.

On the subject of backgrounds, my home computer and work computer both have pictures I've taken at Sugarbush. My home computer has a picture of the top of the Summit Chair at Mt Ellen on opening day several years ago where it and all the trees at the top are covered in heavy rime with a blue sky above. My work computer has a picture of a great powder day in Paradise from several years ago. The Heaven's Gate chair was having issues at the time that week, so all the powder piled up for the most part. Then the day I took the photo it opened for a bit, but had issues again and I ended up being one of the last people to load on it that morning before they closed it. Had a minimally tracked Paradise almost to myself.


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

It was really windy too, was afraid a gust would blow the damn thing out of my hand LOL

Sunday I think was worse, there was a wind hold on slide brook.


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## kbird (Feb 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I use a portable USB charging stick plugged into my phone when on the mountain...otherwise the battery dies in no time. I really only use it for GPS on the mountain though (or checking the webcams). I usually have a separate camera with me for pictures. I bought a new camera back in the summer and am loving the pictures I'm able to take with it.


Thanks for the tip too!


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## Los (Feb 6, 2017)

Edd said:


> Please do! I've only skied Sugarbush a few times. A surprise foot of fresh at Mt Ellen sounds like a great time.



Sorry, it's a couple days late... but for what it's worth here are a copule pics that I snapped in the 3:00 hour on mt ellen just after it had finally stopped snowing... my son is in the distance in the second and third... It was seriously an absolutely amazing day (followed by the worst weekend, but I won't bore with you that)


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## benski (Feb 6, 2017)

kbird said:


> Are you using my photo from this weekend or a different one? I don't mind, I was just curious.


My own.


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## Los (Feb 6, 2017)

Two more (I really like the last one):


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## shadyjay (Feb 6, 2017)

Nice shots.  There was an awesome alpin-glow this morning as I was walking into work at LP, but it was colder than I anticipated and didn't stop for the shot.  Have gotten plenty of good ones over the years.  My favorite photos are still from the top of ME looking north along the Ridge, and the top of Heaven's Gate during an inversion.  After working here for almost 10 years (and skiing/riding here since '91), the views never get old!


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 7, 2017)

Los said:


> Sorry, it's a couple days late... but for what it's worth here are a copule pics that I snapped in the 3:00 hour on mt ellen just after it had finally stopped snowing... my son is in the distance in the second and third... It was seriously an absolutely amazing day (followed by the worst weekend, but I won't bore with you that)
> 
> View attachment 21749View attachment 21750View attachment 21751View attachment 21752View attachment 21753


Nice looking pics. Way better than my phone takes! Definitely borrowing one of these for a desktop background.


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## Los (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Nice looking pics. Way better than my phone takes! Definitely borrowing one of these for a desktop background.



Awesome! I just took them on my iphone (SE version)....


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## kbird (Feb 7, 2017)

That last one was really nice Los!

This is probably my fav from last weekend :grin:


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## rocks860 (Feb 7, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

This is one of my favorites I've taken 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## smac75 (Feb 10, 2017)

What do you think the chances are they are blowing snow tonight?


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## WWF-VT (Feb 10, 2017)

smac75 said:


> What do you think the chances are they are blowing snow tonight?



Huh ? Why blow snow when Mother Nature is providing snow tonight ?


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## smac75 (Feb 11, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Huh ? Why blow snow when Mother Nature is providing snow tonight ?



Wasn't sure 1-3 overnight was enough to cover scratchinesss left over from wed thaw/Thur freeze.  Plus - Whaleback was blowing!


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## shadyjay (Feb 12, 2017)

smac75 (and others)...
As of 2/1, we are done making snow for the season.  Our last push included the base area, Coffee Run, Sleeper, lower half of Spring Fling, upper half of Downspout, and VHT.  We've got our spring routes and others pretty heavily covered with snow.  In fact, the piles are still there on Downspout coming down from Bravo to Grinder flats.  It doesn't make sense to make snow at this point since, well, you know, it's dumping out, and more is on the way.  With President's Week starting on Saturday, we are in really good shape, much better than last year.

Most of us snowmakers have moved on to other departments... myself, I can be found on lifts all over LP.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 13, 2017)

Well, this is an interesting but disappointing morning. All lifts are down except Castlerock, which has maybe the longest line I've seen in a while. It was very amusing, and oddly heartening, to see all the people treking up from the bottom this morning as the wind whipped the snow around. Wind-hold be damned I guess.  I think it may be time to invest in some touring gear.


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## benski (Feb 13, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Well, this is an interesting but disappointing morning. All lifts are down except Castlerock, which has maybe the longest line I've seen in a while. It was very amusing, and oddly heartening, to see all the people treking up from the bottom this morning as the wind whipped the snow around. Wind-hold be damned I guess.  I think it may be time to invest in some touring gear.



And your are only allowed to skin/hike up racers edge-snowball-jester or pushover.


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## cdskier (Feb 13, 2017)

benski said:


> And your are only allowed to skin/hike up racers edge-snowball-jester or pushover.



Makes good sense to define one uphill route for everyone to use on each area of the mountain. A free for all with people going up (and down) any trail could be ugly.


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## benski (Feb 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Makes good sense to define one uphill route for everyone to use on each area of the mountain. A free for all with people going up (and down) any trail could be ugly.



Good point. Just they are not close to the easiest way to get to CastleRock. A route up coffee run-lower jester would make ceslerock much more accessible.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 13, 2017)

I did get in 4 runs off the GMX at Mt Ellen this AM before it went on wind hold.  It's been snowing and blowing all day so tomorrow should be fun.


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## tumbler (Feb 13, 2017)

Was any other area shut down for the day?


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## cdskier (Feb 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Was any other area shut down for the day?



Stowe had the four-runner on wind hold when I looked a few times...that was all I saw though.


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## yeggous (Feb 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Was any other area shut down for the day?



Crotched has the summit on hold too


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## gostan (Feb 14, 2017)

I got darn fed up waiting until the lift closures were firmly announced by Win. I have to believe that it was definitely a complete safety issue, but there was a meltdown in communication to the many who were waiting in extremely cold and windy lift lines.  Many day ticket holders.  TReeskier and I relocated to MRG and had a wonderful day skiing; other than the longest lift lines that I remember seeing at the single chair lift.


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## shadyjay (Feb 14, 2017)

benski said:


> Good point. Just they are not close to the easiest way to get to CastleRock. A route up coffee run-lower jester would make ceslerock much more accessible.



Patrol was allowing those going to Castlerock to go up Gondolier/Lower Jester.  They didn't want people hiking up the runout as that route is a narrow trail and is the primary way down to the base from CR.   Best not to have a few hundred hiking up (and all those footprints) while some are trying to make their way down.  

The designated hiking route of Racer's Edge->Snowball->VHT is the "after hours" morning route, so as to not interfere with grooming operations and the routes of other mountain vehicles.  Easy Rider->Pushover is the designated route in the evening hours.  Designated routes kind of went out the window yesterday, as going up the mountain I saw many hiking up Sleeper, Hot Shot, Sugarbear Road, etc.  And it became quite obvious that some of those people have never hiked up a mountain to earn their turns before.  For those that did earn their turns, kudos to you!


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## WWF-VT (Feb 17, 2017)

Crazy deep powder on Bravo and Exterminator and upper mountain woods today...but lots of wind scoured trails too.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 21, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Crazy deep powder on Bravo and Exterminator and upper mountain woods today...but lots of wind scoured trails too.


A lot of that the whole weekend too. Temperature swings made stuff get sticky and then icy but overall there were some of the best conditions all season in some spots. Assuming this next stretch of warm weather doesnt bring too much rain, things should continue to be awesome.


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## rocks860 (Feb 21, 2017)

I'm going up for a week march 11, hopefully things don't turn to shit by then


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

Not to double post, but what do you all think SB's response to Vail moving in just up the road will be?


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

Well I'll just copy/paste what I wrote in the Vail thread :-D

I think potential crowds you could see at Stowe with the Epic pass potential price-point would be a very strong selling point for other areas like Sugarbush. Maybe the first year people jump ship to Stowe, but after dealing with crowds I could see some people come back to SB. My prediction is SB either keeps pricing flat or reduces it slightly (maybe ~$50-100). People often point to SB as being one of the pricier places, yet at the same time SB also offers a tremendous amount of pass options now where the age range that is paying full price keeps getting narrower and narrower.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 21, 2017)

Overall I think it will have a limited effect on Sugarbush pricing.  FWIW Sugarbush has a high percentage of season passholders that have condos/second homes in the MRV and they aren’t going anywhere. That includes lots of families that take advantage of the “kids under 12 ski free with an adult pass purchase” that buy their passes in the spring at the lowest price point.  There are also many locals that buy Mt Ellen only passes that would never consider an Epic pass at Stowe.   Like cdskier said there are already a lot pf price points for Sugarbush passes.  

If Vail does drop a cheap Epic pass at Stowe they’ll likely jack up the already high day ticket price as Vail does not have Stowe’s real estate assets to make money.   Lowering the cost of the pass, further crowding the slopes and increasing the traffic getting in and out of Stowe is a potential benefit to Sugarbush.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 21, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Overall I think it will have a limited effect on Sugarbush pricing.  FWIW Sugarbush has a high percentage of season passholders that have condos/second homes in the MRV and they aren’t going anywhere. That includes lots of families that take advantage of the “kids under 12 ski free with an adult pass purchase” that buy their passes in the spring at the lowest price point.  There are also many locals that buy Mt Ellen only passes that would never consider an Epic pass at Stowe.   Like cdskier said there are already a lot pf price points for Sugarbush passes.
> 
> If Vail does drop a cheap Epic pass at Stowe they’ll likely jack up the already high day ticket price as Vail does not have Stowe’s real estate assets to make money.   Lowering the cost of the pass, further crowding the slopes and increasing the traffic getting in and out of Stowe is a potential benefit to Sugarbush.



I made a comment on Vail to buy stowe already, but wanted to respond to your post.  My family of Four have been season pass holders at SB for the past several seasons.  We also have a seasonal rental at SB. I have two boys that are turning 13 next year.  My season pass cost is going to increase over $700 next season.  The vail/stowe merger has me thinking.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I made a comment on Vail to buy stowe already, but wanted to respond to your post.  My family of Four have been season pass holders at SB for the past several seasons.  We also have a seasonal rental at SB. I have two boys that are turning 13 next year.  My season pass cost is going to increase over $700 next season.  The vail/stowe merger has me thinking.



Curious why $700? Wasn't the Youth pass at SB $219 last year at the early rate?


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## WWF-VT (Feb 21, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I made a comment on Vail to buy stowe already, but wanted to respond to your post.  My family of Four have been season pass holders at SB for the past several seasons.  We also have a seasonal rental at SB. I have two boys that are turning 13 next year.  My season pass cost is going to increase over $700 next season.  The vail/stowe merger has me thinking.



My guess is that an Epic youth pass is going to be in the same price range as an All Mountain 7 Youth Pass.  I have no idea what your seasonal rental situation is,  but when we looked years ago the Stowe area was more $$ for seasonal rentals compared to the MRV.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Curious why $700? Wasn't the Youth pass at SB $219 last year at the early rate?



I believe it was $359 and I have two kids


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I believe it was $359 and I have two kids



Maybe that was the 2nd deadline price then. The earliest price was $219 (http://web.archive.org/web/20160315064540/http://www.sugarbush.com/season-passes/all-mountain-7).

Epic Youth pass was $399 at the early rate from what I was able to find.

So my math comes up with (based on last year's pricing for SB vs Epic):
Sugarbush - $2736 (1149x2 + 219x2)
Epic - $2416 (809x2 + 399x2)

So yes, Epic would be cheaper for the passes itself and you get the added benefit of being able to use it out west. The flip side though as WWF said is what is the rental cost differential (assuming you still do a seasonal rental). And then for the potential trips out west you need to factor in lodging and airfare. For a family of 4 that could add up quickly. If you didn't plan to go out west, then you're looking at roughly a $300 difference on passes.

*Note, I'm not trying to push you to stick with SB, just trying to think through the costs out loud beyond just the season pass difference. Having the option to ski out west is definitely a nice benefit if you can take advantage of it.

**Edit - Maybe the $219 price was a typo or changed really quickly as I happened to look at a version of that page from April with the pricing and it was up to $349 (http://web.archive.org/web/20160415124357/http://www.sugarbush.com/season-passes/all-mountain-7) ...now you're right that the SB price would be $700 higher for your situation. So overall Epic would be $580 cheaper than SB for the 4 passes alone.

**Edit 2 - Of course this is all based on last year's numbers. Epic has gone up slightly every year recently and we still don't know how SB will react with pricing. So these numbers could swing either way depending on what ends up being announced.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



WWF-VT said:


> Overall I think it will have a limited effect on Sugarbush pricing.  FWIW Sugarbush has a high percentage of season passholders that have condos/second homes in the MRV and they aren’t going anywhere. That includes lots of families that take advantage of the “kids under 12 ski free with an adult pass purchase” that buy their passes in the spring at the lowest price point.  There are also many locals that buy Mt Ellen only passes that would never consider an Epic pass at Stowe.   Like cdskier said there are already a lot pf price points for Sugarbush passes.
> 
> If Vail does drop a cheap Epic pass at Stowe they’ll likely jack up the already high day ticket price as Vail does not have Stowe’s real estate assets to make money.   Lowering the cost of the pass, further crowding the slopes and increasing the traffic getting in and out of Stowe is a potential benefit to Sugarbush.



Have you looked at any of Vail's day rates? They're absurdly high. Epic Pass is what they want you to buy. A lot will have a hard time turning that down.

Agree that SB has a sizable captive audience, but a lot of locals could jump for Epic next year. We'll see.

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## Duncanator24 (Feb 22, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I believe it was $359 and I have two kids



$359 is the early rate for the 19-29 pass at SB. Should be cheaper than that for the youth pass I imagine.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 22, 2017)

Weather looks sketchy this weekend, but it just worked out to be the best time to go with some friends. So I am gonna go, despite the rain on Saturday. Friday and Sunday look decent enough to make it worthwhile, plus I already have 20+ days in this season so it will be fun either way. Anyways, you guys have any tips for the best trails to ride during a rain day? Thinking Mt Ellen is the better bet in general since the groomers there should hold up and the lift rides on GMX and North Ridge are quick (sitting on a lift in the rain is the worst part).


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

Josh Fox says the ski day Saturday might be relatively dry...



> Though we will see some more light rain or drizzle with impaired visibility Friday, most of the rain will come in one relatively well defined period after the ski day on Saturday. This means that the actual ski day will feature some pretty decent weather, especially if you like it very warm. The lower part of the troposphere is actually expected to mix out which will allow for some sunshine, very mild breezes and excessive temperatures for the season. Forecasts show readings in the low 50's, if you are watching your smart phone but with a little sun and a little wind, readings could approach 60 at the base. Needless to say, it will be an excellent spring skiing kind of day. The rain then arrives late in the evening and may fall somewhat heavily for a short time before colder air returns for Sunday.



Sunday could be absolute crap though. Warm Saturday followed by rain Saturday evening followed by temps dropping below freezing late Saturday night will result in a Sunday that will require ice skates. Depending on when the temps drop, it may be difficult for them to groom much as well.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Josh Fox says the ski day Saturday might be relatively dry...
> 
> 
> 
> Sunday could be absolute crap though. Warm Saturday followed by rain Saturday evening followed by temps dropping below freezing late Saturday night will result in a Sunday that will require ice skates. Depending on when the temps drop, it may be difficult for them to groom much as well.



Yeah... have plans to go skiing with a little nephew (10) on Sunday. He's good for a non-racing 10 year old, but it might not be the best day... Saturday is not an option.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Josh Fox says the ski day Saturday might be relatively dry...
> 
> 
> 
> Sunday could be absolute crap though. Warm Saturday followed by rain Saturday evening followed by temps dropping below freezing late Saturday night will result in a Sunday that will require ice skates. Depending on when the temps drop, it may be difficult for them to groom much as well.



That would be excellent really if the rain holds off until later on. I'll make sure to get in two good days of skiing and maybe just skip the last day. Could be nice to get home early anyways!


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## prsboogie (Feb 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Have you looked at any of Vail's day rates? They're absurdly high. Epic Pass is what they want you to buy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Not for nothing but Stowe's day rates are absurdly high as well. Two peas and such!



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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

prsboogie said:


> Not for nothing but Stowe's day rates are absurdly high as well. Two peas and such!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yep.  For two different reasons.  Vail's is they want you to be an Epic passholder.  Stowe's is because they want less people.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 25, 2017)

Really fun spring conditions Friday and Saturday. Very odd for that to happen in February, but nonetheless a great time. Really soft moguls and a completely empty mountain both days. Unfortunate how much base was lost from last weekend but assuming winter comes back this month, things should improve. I say this as it is pouring rain outside right now and I probably won't ski much tomorrow but I'm endlessly optimistic.


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## tumbler (Feb 28, 2017)

What's up with Northridge?  Snow report today said they were assessing the timeframe for repair...


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## benski (Feb 28, 2017)

tumbler said:


> What's up with Northridge?  Snow report today said they were assessing the timeframe for repair...



Nobody know how to work that lift. Its was built by Poma and relocated by Doplmeyer and apparently has not worked wright since the relocation.


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## Savemeasammy (Feb 28, 2017)

Why are people spreading these vicious rumors?  Just look at this pic I took from the Gatehouse this morning...
The woods are in play! 

(To be fair, some woods have cover, but let's not get all crazy Sugarbush!)


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## Jully (Feb 28, 2017)

Thats tough to see in February :sad:


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2017)

tumbler said:


> What's up with Northridge?  Snow report today said they were assessing the timeframe for repair...



I was wondering that as well.



benski said:


> Nobody know how to work that lift. Its was built by Poma and relocated by Doplmeyer and apparently has not worked wright since the relocation.



Actually it has run fairly well since the last overhaul/rebuild about 2 years ago up until whatever just happened this weekend.


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## benski (Feb 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I was wondering that as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it has run fairly well since the last overhaul/rebuild about 2 years ago up until whatever just happened this weekend.



Good to here. My sugarbush days have dropped a lot the last three seasons.


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## CoolMike (Feb 28, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> . . .
> 
> (To be fair, some woods have cover, but let's not get all crazy Sugarbush!)
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That's a south facing slope though.  I bet the difference with the eastern and northern aspects of the hill are huge.  That being said, what an ugly picture for the Bush before March 1.


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## Duncanator24 (Feb 28, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> Why are people spreading these vicious rumors?  Just look at this pic I took from the Gatehouse this morning...
> The woods are in play!
> 
> (To be fair, some woods have cover, but let's not get all crazy Sugarbush!)
> ...



That area of woods off of Gatehouse is not really all that skiiable anyways. You just have to get to higher elevations and then the woods are still covered quite decently. Exterminator woods and Paradise woods are good examples of places with lots of snow still.


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## tumbler (Feb 28, 2017)

That pic is up high on one of the bike trails


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## bushpilot (Feb 28, 2017)

I was there yesterday. It looks dismal. The beginner slope is almost gone. There were bare patches all over and there is no longer any snow under the village double. There were areas on snow making trails that looked like there was less than a 10 inch base. I don't know if they have. All natural lower elevation trails are down to bare earth upper ones didn't look too much better. 

If you have passes or vouchers for any mountains I would say get out there and use them now. If most of the VT places make it through mid march I will be surprised. Use all your prepaid stuff now. If we get a lot of snow in march you won't mind paying out of pocket for good skiing. Right now I would give you a dollar to ski what I did yesterday. 

It is really sad to see how much was lost in just over a week. Friday 2/17 was amazing. Yesterday was depressing. Small snow falls will not help given the state of current conditions. If march starts the way February did (5 feet in 2 weeks) we might be able to salvage something. Otherwise ski it while you can! It's going fast!


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 28, 2017)

I agree with all the above.  I can't believe how much snow they lost in one week.  Pretty much zero natural snow below 2500 feet.  I skied Ellen Today and it skied really well.  Natural trails off of summit were good.  But below that all the natural trails are closed.  There main route snowmaking trails will make it to April.  Even if they get a lot of snow i don't now how they will get the trees open with all the water running in the woods.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 1, 2017)

Even last year, winter showed up in March. So I imagine we can have some really good skiing again in a couple weeks. It's a little too early to be ringing the closing bell for the season. Plus even now at its worst, the mountain is still pretty fun. Fri, Sat, Sun (24-26) was incredibly fun. Sure there were bare spots but that didnt take away from the entertainment value. Even the tiny snowfall on Sun made a huge difference on some trails though.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 1, 2017)

Domino


Lew's Line


Paradise


Spillsville

There is definitely more snow at higher elevations, but unfortunately the better skiing yesterday was down low.   The bump run lookers right of the north lynx triple was decent.  I probably would have skied it more than twice if that chairlift wasn't so damn slow!




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## Jully (Mar 1, 2017)

Domino and Spillsville look NICE


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2017)

Jully said:


> Domino and Spillsville look NICE



The top part of Domino looks good...once you get below the sharp turn to the right about half way down it starts to thin out quickly with many bare spots by the time you hit lower domino. Lower Domino definitely needs snow soon.


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## Jully (Mar 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The top part of Domino looks good...once you get below the sharp turn to the right about half way down it starts to thin out quickly with many bare spots by the time you hit lower domino. Lower Domino definitely needs snow soon.
> 
> View attachment 22017



Well that is tough to see. I kept delaying my trip to SB and hope I didn't miss the best parts. Now I have to gamble as to whether I hit it before it goes any further downhill or pray that we get some decent March storms.


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## rocks860 (Mar 1, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> View attachment 22013
> Domino
> 
> View attachment 22014
> ...



I believe sunrise is the trail you're referring to. A couple years ago they groomed that trail and then it snowed about 8 inches on a Tuesday. I was up there for the week and Wednesday was just pure powder, I must have hit that trail 10 times and the mountain was practically empty








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## Jully (Mar 1, 2017)

I'm a big big fan of the North Lynx terrain pod.


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## rocks860 (Mar 1, 2017)

Jully said:


> I'm a big big fan of the North Lynx terrain pod.



When the snow is good morning Star is awesome


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> When the snow is good morning Star is awesome



2 weeks ago I was commenting when I was riding North Lynx how unusually good the cover looked on the upper part of Morning Star. Then this past Saturday it was pretty bare and only the lower half of it was even open. Today I see it is not open at all on the trail report.

I agree it is a fun pod, although I generally take no more than 2 or 3 runs there any given day due to the slow lift covering not much vertical and SB having too much other good terrain that I want to ski.


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## bushpilot (Mar 1, 2017)

Jully said:


> Well that is tough to see. I kept delaying my trip to SB and hope I didn't miss the best parts. Now I have to gamble as to whether I hit it before it goes any further downhill or pray that we get some decent March storms.



I would get out there ASAP! The weather for the next two weeks looks relatively snowless with some rain and lots of warm temps. If it happens to snow big I don't think you would mind paying for a day ticket on a powder day. But if you are waiting for better conditions to use that pass, that was yesterday and tomorrow the better conditions were today lol. It is only gonna get worse imo.


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## Jully (Mar 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> 2 weeks ago I was commenting when I was riding North Lynx how unusually good the cover looked on the upper part of Morning Star. Then this past Saturday it was pretty bare and only the lower half of it was even open. Today I see it is not open at all on the trail report.
> 
> I agree it is a fun pod, although I generally take no more than 2 or 3 runs there any given day due to the slow lift covering not much vertical and SB having too much other good terrain that I want to ski.



I generally take no more than 5 runs over there too. I just think its an awesome little pod haha (though it certainly loses its luster if you do it more than 5x in a day/weekend). I will spend more time there if a) its mad crowded) or b) its a powder day.


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## Jully (Mar 1, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> I would get out there ASAP! The weather for the next two weeks looks relatively snowless with some rain and lots of warm temps. If it happens to snow big I don't think you would mind paying for a day ticket on a powder day. But if you are waiting for better conditions to use that pass, that was yesterday and tomorrow the better conditions were today lol. It is only gonna get worse imo.



This is true... maybe I will have to get sick soon...


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## rocks860 (Mar 2, 2017)

I don't have a choice, I'll be the 3/11- 3/18


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2017)

Castlerock Extreme Challenge this Saturday...supposedly the event will be held but they are assessing conditions later to determine where to hold it. I wouldn't be surprised if they move it to Paradise. Lift Line looked like it had a lot of bare spots last weekend from what you could see from a distance and I'm sure it only got worse this week.


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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2017)

Sugarbush canceled the Freestyle event for this weekend stating that the park and the mogul course have both melted out and froze solid.  What a bummer for those kids.


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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Castlerock Extreme Challenge this Saturday...supposedly the event will be held but they are assessing conditions later to determine where to hold it. I wouldn't be surprised if they move it to Paradise. Lift Line looked like it had a lot of bare spots last weekend from what you could see from a distance and I'm sure it only got worse this week.



Look at the Web cam at the bottom.  That should give you a good idea.  Yikes.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Look at the Web cam at the bottom.  That should give you a good idea.  Yikes.



Hah, I've looked at it far too much! The base of the CR chair is a lovely sheet of solid ice with a dusting of snow sprinkled on top.


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## bushpilot (Mar 2, 2017)

I was there today. It was awful! Everywhere was a total sheet of ice. Free foot and leg massage with every run! I think the only days worth skiing now are the ones where temps are above freezing.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2017)

I think the groomed runs could be ok by Saturday with 2 additional grooming cycles on them. The wind is what worries me as I'm a bit concerned about potential wind holds.

They also moved the CR Extreme Challenge to Paradise.  Good luck to anyone competing. I can't imagine those bumps being even remotely enjoyable at the moment. Last year they moved it to Paradise too, although interestingly enough CR had enough cover be open for hiking and was surprisingly decent (I only remember this because that was the only weekend I made it to CR last year).


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 2, 2017)

I have to wonder how many ppl have still unused quad packs. I'm one... 
if conditions magically get good again I bet sugarbush will get crowds.


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## hovercraft (Mar 2, 2017)

With Mt. Snow, Stratton, Okemo, Killington,Stowe and Magic Mt making snow why isn't the Bush making snow?


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## rocks860 (Mar 2, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> I have to wonder how many ppl have still unused quad packs. I'm one...
> if conditions magically get good again I bet sugarbush will get crowds.


thats what i will be using the week im up there


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## Jully (Mar 2, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> With Mt. Snow, Stratton, Okemo, Killington,Stowe and Magic Mt making snow why isn't the Bush making snow?



Wait they aren't??


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2017)

Jully said:


> Wait they aren't??



If they are they're sure keeping it secret. I'm not really surprised as this is their typical strategy. This is one area I don't agree with their strategy on though. They make a certain amount of snow on trails and once they hit their goal, they're pretty much done unless you had major bare spots showing on key snowmaking trails. They still feel they have adequate depth on those trails though and are just "letting the groomers work their magic." I don't quite understand the strategy after the exceptional weather roller coaster we've just gone through.


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## bushpilot (Mar 2, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> With Mt. Snow, Stratton, Okemo, Killington,Stowe and Magic Mt making snow why isn't the Bush making snow?



I think that with the end of PDW that closes out the big money making season. There is Spring Break in April but I think most of the people South of VT are getting into the swing of Spriong sports and don't really make the trip up. You see it in their schedule of events. All the Mass holidays have lots of activities like smores cookouts, special group classes, kids cooking lots of live music. Now that VT/NH vacation week is here they don't do shit. Lifts spin at 9 instead of 8 as well. They are definitely catering to a Mass crowd.


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## dlague (Mar 2, 2017)

It is already starting my son is  playing lacrosse and they have a preseason tournament which is made up of a full day of scrimmages on Saturday and they have ever practices next Saturday as well.  I am sure the same applies to states south of Vermont.  Lacrosse in NH did not start until the end of March.

I hope Sugarbush manages something decent for this weekend.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Wow...Sugarbush plans to turn on the guns this evening on some Gate House and Valley House terrain. I'm pretty shocked.


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2017)

Wait whaat????   That is totally unexpected.  I thought I would never here this.  How did you get the specifics?  I see it on Twitter but they never said where they would blow.



cdskier said:


> Wow...Sugarbush plans to turn on the guns this evening on some Gate House and Valley House terrain. I'm pretty shocked.


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## teleo (Mar 3, 2017)

Win posted to skimrv.  I too am surprised, but happy!


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2017)

My work blocks Skimrv but not Alpine Zone.  Kind of strange.  I don't see those posts until I get home.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> My work blocks Skimrv but not Alpine Zone.  Kind of strange.  I don't see those posts until I get home.



My work still blocks skimrv too back from when it was categorized as "malware". Working from home today though so I can see it on my personal computer. Plus I can always look at it on my iPhone when I'm at work if I'm desperate, but usually I'll wait until I get home.


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2017)

I work for a very large company and somehow they block the site on my iphone also.  I have no Idea how they do this but it is Totally Big Brother.  it bothers me so much I am thinking of finding a new job.


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## rtjcbrown (Mar 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Wow...Sugarbush plans to turn on the guns this evening on some Gate House and Valley House terrain. I'm pretty shocked.



*
This is not the season to come up short on snow, especially considering what they will be up against this off season from their competitor to the north. Don't need Stowe having a longer season fresh in people's minds when they are considering all the new pass options that will be available. If anything, Bush should be piling it on and trying to stretch the season. It may cost a few bucks, but the goodwill and PR will pay in the long run.
*


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Glad my company either chooses not to do that or doesn't know how. My iPhone is a corporate device with plenty of other security restrictions. We're also a very large company with a lot of smart people in IT, so I'm betting on it being a choice to not filter web traffic on iDevices.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Wow...Sugarbush plans to turn on the guns this evening on some Gate House and Valley House terrain. I'm pretty shocked.



That just changed in the last 1/2 hour.Nothing was on todays snow report.Just added.Probably got shamed after checking out how many areas are making snow.I saw at least 12.


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2017)

I think it's a little late for that.  The mountain ended snowmaking operations a month ago and moved all the workers to other tasks or laid them off.  They are not going to start back up full snow making operations.  This is just a quick fix for the bad conditions that now exist.  They do have a good base on Steins and coffee run and that is what we will be skiing on in April.  I think we will be lucky to make May 1 this year.  There is no way you can compare us to Stowe as far as snow making.  They blow way more than we do.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 3, 2017)

I think I may be right about my last post.When somebody asked them on FB yesterday if they were done making snow this year,here is what the reply was:

Even if we don't make more snow, we will still be skiing right through April.


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## Jully (Mar 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I work for a very large company and somehow they block the site on my iphone also.  I have no Idea how they do this but it is Totally Big Brother.  it bothers me so much I am thinking of finding a new job.



Are you on the wifi?


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## Jully (Mar 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Wow...Sugarbush plans to turn on the guns this evening on some Gate House and Valley House terrain. I'm pretty shocked.



That is very good news. I was worried for them if they didn't make snow.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> I think I may be right about my last post.When somebody asked them on FB yesterday if they were done making snow this year,here is what the reply was:
> 
> Even if we don't make more snow, we will still be skiing right through April.



I think they started toying with the idea yesterday but didn't make the final decision until sometime this morning. Early yesterday morning (6:30am), win made a post pretty much saying it was up to the groomers now. Then at 7:15am he made a follow-up post saying "Ps. We will keep monitoring " in reference to snowmaking as that was the question that had been asked. At 6AM this morning Win was still saying they had deep depth on their core spring trails, had an extensive grooming plan last night, and would re-assess today. Then at 8am is when he posted again that they were turning the guns back on tonight.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Jully said:


> That is very good news. I was worried for them if they didn't make snow.



To be honest this isn't going to make much difference in terms of depth. It will make for some nice turns under the guns this weekend, but that's about it. SB is still confident that the core spring trails have adequate depth to last late into the spring. I'm not convinced they are as deep as last year, but time will tell.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I think it's a little late for that.  The mountain ended snowmaking operations a month ago and moved all the workers to other tasks or laid them off.  They are not going to start back up full snow making operations.  This is just a quick fix for the bad conditions that now exist.  They do have a good base on Steins and coffee run and that is what we will be skiing on in April.  I think we will be lucky to make May 1 this year.  There is no way you can compare us to Stowe as far as snow making.  They blow way more than we do.



I agree. One key difference between SB and Stowe though is that SB specifically focuses on a couple key spring trails and blows extra on them. Stowe seems to blow everything deeper in general, but doesn't specifically stockpile anything on certain trails the way SB does with Steins (although I could be wrong). Stowe usually doesn't aim for May 1 and usually chooses to close earlier. They certainly could be open later than or at least equal to SB most years but that doesn't appear to be their goal.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2017)

Stowe closes right around April 20th every year. They could be at 100% operation and they'd still shut down.  

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## dlague (Mar 3, 2017)

Maybe Sugarbush found out that things are son hard that tilling the surface really is not doing much and is focusing on a pod.

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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2017)

Jully said:


> Are you on the wifi?



yes


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## bushpilot (Mar 3, 2017)

They didn't have a choice. The beginner area is ravaged. They would surely get complaints from people coming to learn. Easy rider is about half the width of winter conditions to the point that it doesn't look safe. Skiing on the sheet of ice yesterday it didn't look like it was gonna soften up with colder temps.


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## Jully (Mar 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> yes



Then that's how they block it. Its not device centered its the wifi itself. Take your phone off the wifi and you'll have no problem!


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 3, 2017)

Doesn't sound like there making much snow from this on their snow report.

Snowmaking will resume this evening and last into the morning on beginner terrain around Village Double, Sleeper, and Snowball to Spring Fling.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 3, 2017)

FWIW - it's been snowing for the past few hours so at least it looks like winter hasn't given up yet


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## frapcap (Mar 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Stowe closes right around April 20th every year. They could be at 100% operation and they'd still shut down.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



This. I was there a few years back on the last day and was genuinely surprised that they were calling it quits. We were still skiing in the trees that day!


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## hovercraft (Mar 3, 2017)

Stowe closes the 3rd weekend of April pretty consistently.


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## Kleetus (Mar 3, 2017)

frapcap said:


> This. I was there a few years back on the last day and was genuinely surprised that they were calling it quits. We were still skiing in the trees that day!



I closed down Stowe the 13-14 and 14-15 seasons. In both cases they could have stayed open later, especially 14-15 when they still had tons of snow and would have 75%+ of terrain open had they spun all the lifts. Epic spring bumps. Unfortunately that's not what brings in the skiers and that was it. 

Was at Tremblant last year in mid April closing weekend and same thing. Pretty much 100% open and they could have gone to May easily, but people even up in Quebec had moved on to spring activities so they closed. Was a shame because last winter they had by their standards an Epic winter or close and had all the snow we missed out on. 


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - it's been snowing for the past few hours so at least it looks like winter hasn't given up yet



Roads were a bit slick on the western side of the greens. Saw two cars off the road on route 30/73 in Sudbury on the drive up. 


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## smac75 (Mar 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Roads were a bit slick on the western side of the greens. Saw two cars off the road on route 30/73 in Sudbury on the drive up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



And plenty off the road on 89 heading north - I saw at least 5. Not sure how the roads were so slick with it being cold and dry for the past 24 hours. Whiteout squalls just after Lebanon as well.


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## teleo (Mar 3, 2017)

Yes it was an interesting drive up.


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## rocks860 (Mar 3, 2017)

We were driving back from Manchester to magic after dinner and it was crazy, barely any visibility 


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## hovercraft (Mar 4, 2017)

It will be interesting to see if Vail keeps the same commitment to the snowmaking and the users experience as AIG has demonstrated.  Case in point.
https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/


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## bzrperfspec77 (Mar 6, 2017)

When does Mt. Ellen normally close? Our ski club has a trip up that way for the 24-26.


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## cdskier (Mar 6, 2017)

Mt Ellen closing day is scheduled for April 2nd this year


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## benski (Mar 6, 2017)

Mt. Ellen usually closes the last weekend of march and usually reopens for a passholder day the first Saturday of April.


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## bzrperfspec77 (Mar 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Mt Ellen closing day is scheduled for April 2nd this year



Thanks. Let's hope that stays true and the weather takes a turn for the better.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

Sugurbush joining the Mountain Collective didn't take long. LOL.  Pretty obvious they're scared by Vail/Stowe and knew they needed to make a move.  

I dont see this as much of a carrot for an eastern skier though, unless you happen to be vacationing someplace like Utah, and even then, frankly I can easily beat 6 days for $400 with other offers.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 7, 2017)

Smart move on their part. The Mountain Collective is pretty awesome if you can afford to travel. It would be better though if a few other eastern areas were on the bill.


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## slatham (Mar 7, 2017)

So I am  not sure I get this. It seems anyone can buy a mountain collective pass for $399 and get the benefits - 2 days at each destination, plus 50% off thereafter. You don't have to be a passholder at one of the mountains to get this. 

The only benefit for season passholders is:

"Premium passholders at Mountain Collective Resorts have the opportunity to purchase unlimited 50% off single day tickets at the other Mountain Collective Resorts. We recommend reaching out to the resort you're interested in visiting to inquire about specific details." 

So it would seem that for no additional money a "premium" Sugarbush passholder can get unlimited 50% discounts at other mountains in the collective.

Do I have this right?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Mt Ellen closing day is scheduled for April 2nd this year



So glad they are going into April. ME is a gem!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



slatham said:


> So I am  not sure I get this. It seems anyone can buy a mountain collective pass for $399 and get the benefits - 2 days at each destination, plus 50% off thereafter. You don't have to be a passholder at one of the mountains to get this.
> 
> The only benefit for season passholders is:
> 
> ...



You are correct. As an Alta-Bird passholder I have that deal. 

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## Duncanator24 (Mar 7, 2017)

This is awesome! I planned on buying a Mountain Collective pass to coincide with a move out to California. This will let me still get in a ski trip with friends at home who have SB season passes. Plus if the 50% off other collective resorts holds true then they could find it easier to make a trip or two out west. I kinda wish they had 3-4 days at each and like half of the mountains, but the price is pretty darn good!


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 7, 2017)

Dear Sugarbush, I love you but please stop claiming your ski-able acreage is just 700 acres short of Alta and Snowbird combined (source: the Mountain Collective website).


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sugurbush joining the Mountain Collective didn't take long. LOL.  Pretty obvious they're scared by Vail/Stowe and knew they needed to make a move.
> 
> I dont see this as much of a carrot for an eastern skier though, unless you happen to be vacationing someplace like Utah, and even then, frankly I can easily beat 6 days for $400 with other offers.



If you plan to travel to the participating resorts it certainly has appeal. There are a number of people I remember seeing on this board that said they took advantage of it when Stowe was previously a member.

The 50% off lift tickets at member resorts for passholders for no extra charge is the benefit that would more interest someone like me that doesn't want to be locked in to having to travel out west. As a Sugarbush passholder, if I decide to go to Alta or Jackson Hole, etc, I get 50% off their tickets without having to buy the Mountain Collective pass itself.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> You are correct. As an Alta-Bird passholder I have that deal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Do you know if the MC pass has 2 days at Alta and 2 days at Snowbird, or is it just 2 days between them? I kinda figured they were single mountain ownership like Lincoln Peak/Mount Ellen at SB but wasnt sure.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 7, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Dear Sugarbush, I love you but please stop claiming your ski-able acreage is just 700 acres short of Alta and Snowbird combined (source: the Mountain Collective website).



It does seem a little desperate and embarrassing


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## SnowRock (Mar 7, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Do you know if the MC pass has 2 days at Alta and 2 days at Snowbird, or is it just 2 days between them? I kinda figured they were single mountain ownership like Lincoln Peak/Mount Ellen at SB but wasnt sure.



It doesn't matter to me as the don't like my kind at Alta, but, they just changed it for next season.... It will now be 2 at each for a total of 4 days. This season it was just 2 total for each. They are doing the same for Lake Louise/Sunshine.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 7, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> It doesn't matter to me as the don't like my kind at Alta, but, they just changed it for next season.... It will now be 2 at each for a total of 4 days. This season it was just 2 total for each. They are doing the same for Lake Louise/Sunshine.



Haha sweet! This pays for itself real easy then. Here is a doable roadtrip I came up with to hit the majority of them in one trip:https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Taos+Ski+Valley,+NM/Telluride+Ski+Resort,+Mountain+Village+Boulevard,+Telluride,+CO/Aspen+Snowmass+-+Aspen+Skiing+Co,+Aspen+Airport+Business+Center,+Aspen,+CO/Alta+Ski+Area,+Utah+210,+Alta,+UT/Snowbasin+Resort,+3925+Snow+Basin+Rd,+Huntsville,+UT+84317/Jackson+Hole+Mountain+Resort,+Cody+Lane,+Teton+Village,+WY/Sun+Valley,+Ketchum,+ID/Squaw+Valley+Resort,+Squaw+Valley+Road,+Olympic+Valley,+CA/Mammoth+Mountain,+Minaret+Road,+Mammoth+Lakes,+CA/@39.7333648,-121.8324079,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m56!4m55!1m5!1m1!1s0x87176afe36211b59:0xc919128291623985!2m2!1d-105.4545!2d36.5959999!1m5!1m1!1s0x873ed7fd24b94b9f:0x9d02e608ccfc306b!2m2!1d-107.846386!2d37.9365202!1m5!1m1!1s0x874047a555555555:0x7814832995f5120d!2m2!1d-106.8615126!2d39.2204308!1m5!1m1!1s0x87527081341582c5:0x11d9d28a3a831268!2m2!1d-111.6288776!2d40.5908269!1m5!1m1!1s0x8753081dad4b4bc3:0xf6b51cbb086af06f!2m2!1d-111.856897!2d41.216045!1m5!1m1!1s0x53531a42cea96879:0x7f76789e3b981e38!2m2!1d-110.8278682!2d43.5875205!1m5!1m1!1s0x54a982988552f649:0xf20bccdb5d14c999!2m2!1d-114.3676843!2d43.6712087!1m5!1m1!1s0x809bd9ecf08f263d:0x30be88f09785170f!2m2!1d-120.2354422!2d39.197607!1m5!1m1!1s0x80960d4ed49fd3d1:0xda9c3289d175614!2m2!1d-119.0262173!2d37.6388307!3e0


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## bushpilot (Mar 7, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Haha sweet! This pays for itself real easy then. Here is a doable roadtrip I came up with to hit the majority of them in one trip:https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Taos+Ski+Valley,+NM/Telluride+Ski+Resort,+Mountain+Village+Boulevard,+Telluride,+CO/Aspen+Snowmass+-+Aspen+Skiing+Co,+Aspen+Airport+Business+Center,+Aspen,+CO/Alta+Ski+Area,+Utah+210,+Alta,+UT/Snowbasin+Resort,+3925+Snow+Basin+Rd,+Huntsville,+UT+84317/Jackson+Hole+Mountain+Resort,+Cody+Lane,+Teton+Village,+WY/Sun+Valley,+Ketchum,+ID/Squaw+Valley+Resort,+Squaw+Valley+Road,+Olympic+Valley,+CA/Mammoth+Mountain,+Minaret+Road,+Mammoth+Lakes,+CA/@39.7333648,-121.8324079,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m56!4m55!1m5!1m1!1s0x87176afe36211b59:0xc919128291623985!2m2!1d-105.4545!2d36.5959999!1m5!1m1!1s0x873ed7fd24b94b9f:0x9d02e608ccfc306b!2m2!1d-107.846386!2d37.9365202!1m5!1m1!1s0x874047a555555555:0x7814832995f5120d!2m2!1d-106.8615126!2d39.2204308!1m5!1m1!1s0x87527081341582c5:0x11d9d28a3a831268!2m2!1d-111.6288776!2d40.5908269!1m5!1m1!1s0x8753081dad4b4bc3:0xf6b51cbb086af06f!2m2!1d-111.856897!2d41.216045!1m5!1m1!1s0x53531a42cea96879:0x7f76789e3b981e38!2m2!1d-110.8278682!2d43.5875205!1m5!1m1!1s0x54a982988552f649:0xf20bccdb5d14c999!2m2!1d-114.3676843!2d43.6712087!1m5!1m1!1s0x809bd9ecf08f263d:0x30be88f09785170f!2m2!1d-120.2354422!2d39.197607!1m5!1m1!1s0x80960d4ed49fd3d1:0xda9c3289d175614!2m2!1d-119.0262173!2d37.6388307!3e0



I'll pack my bags. You're driving, right?


----------



## Duncanator24 (Mar 7, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> I'll pack my bags. You're driving, right?



Yeah totally, everyone has to fit in my Miata though.

Even better, here is one that hits all of them (other than Australia) https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Sugarbush+Resort,+Sugarbush+Access+Road,+Warren,+VT/Taos+Ski+Valley,+NM/Telluride+Ski+Resort/Aspen+Snowmass+-+Aspen+Skiing+Co/Alta+Ski+Area,+Utah+210,+Alta,+UT/Jackson+Hole+Mountain+Resort/Sun+Valley,+Ketchum,+ID/Lake+Louise+Ski+Resort/Squaw+Valley+Resort/Mammoth+Mountain+Ski+Area/@30.0404858,-118.0357814,5z/data=!4m62!4m61!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb56d7b952c28bb:0x78dc5cf31c15ff36!2m2!1d-72.8795564!2d44.1454665!1m5!1m1!1s0x87176afe36211b59:0xc919128291623985!2m2!1d-105.4545!2d36.5959999!1m5!1m1!1s0x873ed7fd24b94b9f:0x9d02e608ccfc306b!2m2!1d-107.846386!2d37.9365202!1m5!1m1!1s0x874047a555555555:0x7814832995f5120d!2m2!1d-106.8615126!2d39.2204308!1m5!1m1!1s0x87527081341582c5:0x11d9d28a3a831268!2m2!1d-111.6288776!2d40.5908269!1m5!1m1!1s0x53531a42cea96879:0x7f76789e3b981e38!2m2!1d-110.8278682!2d43.5875205!1m5!1m1!1s0x54a982988552f649:0xf20bccdb5d14c999!2m2!1d-114.3676843!2d43.6712087!1m5!1m1!1s0x537742ba3fc116e9:0x23d47edc29c5f7fd!2m2!1d-116.1621717!2d51.4419206!1m5!1m1!1s0x809bd9ecf08f263d:0x30be88f09785170f!2m2!1d-120.2354422!2d39.197607!1m5!1m1!1s0x80960d4ed49fd3d1:0xda9c3289d175614!2m2!1d-119.0262173!2d37.6388307!3e0


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> *If you plan to travel to the participating resorts it certainly has appeal.*



Yes, but that's my point.   You're talking about a very limited number of eastern skiers.   

 I cant afford either the time or the money to gallivant all over North America each year to ski, and if I did, I can assure you I wouldnt much care about a discounted 2-day discount deal.


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Haha sweet! This pays for itself real easy then. Here is a doable roadtrip I came up with to hit the majority of them in one trip:https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Taos+Ski+Valley,+NM/Telluride+Ski+Resort,+Mountain+Village+Boulevard,+Telluride,+CO/Aspen+Snowmass+-+Aspen+Skiing+Co,+Aspen+Airport+Business+Center,+Aspen,+CO/Alta+Ski+Area,+Utah+210,+Alta,+UT/Snowbasin+Resort,+3925+Snow+Basin+Rd,+Huntsville,+UT+84317/Jackson+Hole+Mountain+Resort,+Cody+Lane,+Teton+Village,+WY/Sun+Valley,+Ketchum,+ID/Squaw+Valley+Resort,+Squaw+Valley+Road,+Olympic+Valley,+CA/Mammoth+Mountain,+Minaret+Road,+Mammoth+Lakes,+CA/@39.7333648,-121.8324079,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m56!4m55!1m5!1m1!1s0x87176afe36211b59:0xc919128291623985!2m2!1d-105.4545!2d36.5959999!1m5!1m1!1s0x873ed7fd24b94b9f:0x9d02e608ccfc306b!2m2!1d-107.846386!2d37.9365202!1m5!1m1!1s0x874047a555555555:0x7814832995f5120d!2m2!1d-106.8615126!2d39.2204308!1m5!1m1!1s0x87527081341582c5:0x11d9d28a3a831268!2m2!1d-111.6288776!2d40.5908269!1m5!1m1!1s0x8753081dad4b4bc3:0xf6b51cbb086af06f!2m2!1d-111.856897!2d41.216045!1m5!1m1!1s0x53531a42cea96879:0x7f76789e3b981e38!2m2!1d-110.8278682!2d43.5875205!1m5!1m1!1s0x54a982988552f649:0xf20bccdb5d14c999!2m2!1d-114.3676843!2d43.6712087!1m5!1m1!1s0x809bd9ecf08f263d:0x30be88f09785170f!2m2!1d-120.2354422!2d39.197607!1m5!1m1!1s0x80960d4ed49fd3d1:0xda9c3289d175614!2m2!1d-119.0262173!2d37.6388307!3e0



Need a month off!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

dlague said:


> *Need a month off!*



Is that all?  

Oh, I totally change my prior post's answer then.  I'll take TWO passes please!  

Sure, I'll lose thousands of dollars in wages, but I'll save at least a few hundred dollars on lift tickets = WINNING!


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that all?
> 
> Oh, I totally change my prior post's answer then.  I'll take TWO passes please!
> 
> Sure, I'll lose thousands of dollars in wages, but I'll save at least a few hundred dollars on lift tickets = WINNING!



That's the right attitude!


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 7, 2017)

dlague said:


> Need a month off!



Now that I look at it closer though, it probably would be really easy to hit at least half of the total for only like 3 separate trips. The Colorado ones, The Utah ones, and the California ones. That easily represents like 14 days without too much traveling involved. So the pass is like $30 a day plus there is an extra day if you buy early.


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## TheArchitect (Mar 7, 2017)

Just bought my first MC pass and stretched my wallet an additional $1 to get a pass for my son. :wink:  I'm just coming back from Alta-bird and will be going back again next year.  7 days for both me and my son at SB and Alta-bird for $400?  No brainer.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

TheArchitect said:


> *7 days for both me and my son at SB and Alta-bird for $400?*  No brainer.



Honestly, this is really not difficult to defeat. 

 You need to follow the SOTC thread and join us "Extreme Lift Ticket'ers".


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## SnowRock (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Honestly, this is really not difficult to defeat.
> 
> You need to follow the SOTC thread and join us "Extreme Lift Ticket'ers".
> 
> View attachment 22083



The MC is also completely unrestricted in terms of when its used. I am sure with some deal hunting you might do a bit better but what do you think is a good average per day for a season in terms of cost at MC caliber mountains?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> what do you think is a good average per day for a season in terms of cost at MC caliber mountains?



Roughly $30 to $45 tops.   It's rare I ever pay > $40 to ski, Stowe being the only east coast exception.


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## Griswold (Mar 7, 2017)

Not looking for any secrets because I wouldn't use them anyway, but how does one ski killington, Sugarbush, okemo, sugarloaf, etc. on a weekend or a holiday for under $40 without a pass/max pass? I've read the skiing on the cheaper thread and am pretty skeptical you can ski these mountains on the weekends and never pay more than 40 to any except Stowe.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Mar 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> If you plan to travel to the participating resorts it certainly has appeal. There are a number of people I remember seeing on this board that said they took advantage of it when Stowe was previously a member.
> 
> The 50% off lift tickets at member resorts for passholders for no extra charge is the benefit that would more interest someone like me that doesn't want to be locked in to having to travel out west. As a Sugarbush passholder, if I decide to go to Alta or Jackson Hole, etc, I get 50% off their tickets without having to buy the Mountain Collective pass itself.



Yeah I look at it as more of an added benefit to the season pass holders of those mountains...as you then get 50% off day tickets at all MC resorts.  It's a real nice perk.

I'm not a fan of the MC pass itself as you need some money to travel often to get your days in.  

The real thing for Sugarbush is the addded benefit to its pass holders to help them compete with the Epic pass at Stowe.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 7, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Yeah I look at it as more of an added benefit to the season pass holders of those mountains...as you then get 50% off day tickets at all MC resorts.  It's a real nice perk.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the MC pass itself as you need some money to travel often to get your days in.
> 
> The real thing for Sugarbush is the addded benefit to its pass holders to help them compete with the Epic pass at Stowe.


Agreed.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 7, 2017)

Griswold said:


> Not looking for any secrets because I wouldn't use them anyway, but how does one ski killington, Sugarbush, okemo, sugarloaf, etc. on a weekend or a holiday for under $40 without a pass/max pass? I've read the skiing on the cheaper thread and am pretty skeptical you can ski these mountains on the weekends and never pay more than 40 to any except Stowe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Without a pass it is unlikely, but you can still get around the $50 mark by becoming a member of a ski club and using their discounted tickets/days.


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

TheArchitect said:


> Just bought my first MC pass and stretched my wallet an additional $1 to get a pass for my son. :wink:  I'm just coming back from Alta-bird and will be going back again next year.  7 days for both me and my son at SB and Alta-bird for $400?  No brainer.



At a little over $28 per day - that is pretty darn good!  

As long as you do not count lodging flights and rental.  But if you generally plan a trip every year no matter what then those are non issues.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2017)

TheArchitect said:


> 7 days for both me and my son at SB and Alta-bird for $400?  No brainer.





BenedictGomez said:


> Honestly, this is really not difficult to defeat.
> You need to follow the SOTC thread and join us "Extreme Lift Ticket'ers".



He's averaging $28 per ticket... (and that's assuming he only goes to SB, Alta, and Snowbird). 



BenedictGomez said:


> Roughly $30 to $45 tops.   It's rare I ever pay > $40 to ski, Stowe being the only east coast exception.



So TheArchitect comes in under the price you're targeting. Looks like a good deal for him for sure.


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## Griswold (Mar 7, 2017)

Apparently $28 a day isn't difficult to defeat...riiight


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> He's averaging $28 per ticket... (and that's assuming he only goes to SB, Alta, and Snowbird).



I missed the part about there being a kid involved, I thought it was just an adult.   My reaction was that at $399 for 6 days (2 each at 3 resorts) would be $67/day, which would not be impressive at all, so this is definitely best for people with kids.


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## TheArchitect (Mar 7, 2017)

Yeah, I have my kid with a pass for next year.  He'll be too old after that for the $1 deal.  In any case, SB is my favorite mountain in the east so I'd be going there anyway and now I can ski 4 days for free at Alta and Snowbird for the same money I would have spent at SB without the MC pass.

Jackson Hole is on my wish list so that's just gravy.  I'm already plotting either two trips or one long trip with a drive from Alta-Bird to JH.  I've got tons of frequent flier miles so I only have to worry about lodging as the primary expense.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sugurbush joining the Mountain Collective didn't take long. LOL.  Pretty obvious they're scared by Vail/Stowe and knew they needed to make a move.
> 
> I dont see this as much of a carrot for an eastern skier though, unless you happen to be vacationing someplace like Utah, and even then, frankly I can easily beat 6 days for $400 with other offers.



Just got the Email announcement. Interesting. Snowbasin as well. Both good for me. 


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## rocks860 (Mar 8, 2017)

Looks like next week is shaping up to be decent, possible significant snow Tuesday into Wednesday. I'm cautiously optimistic


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 8, 2017)

Whoa:

In addition to the benefits of the Mountain Collective, we are making a number of changes to our Sugarbush season passes for next year. We will now offer a Sugarbush Adult Premium Pass (ages 40 - 64) for only $799, a Senior Premium Pass (ages 65 - 79) for $699, a Silver Senior Premium Pass (ages 80 - 89) for $149, a 90+ Premium Pass at no cost, a Youth Premium Pass (ages 7 - 18) for $349, a For20s Premium Pass (ages 19 - 29) for $349, and a new For30s Premium Pass (ages 30 - 39) for $549


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

Yea...I just got that e-mail too. I was not expecting that at all.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

Also the new "Value" pass that replaces the previous Mt Ellen pass is pretty cool. You get unlimited access to Mt Ellen plus M-F non-holiday access at LP as well as access at LP prior to ME opening and after ME closes for $549.


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## Jully (Mar 8, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Whoa:
> 
> In addition to the benefits of the Mountain Collective, we are making a number of changes to our Sugarbush season passes for next year. We will now offer a Sugarbush Adult Premium Pass (ages 40 - 64) for only $799, a Senior Premium Pass (ages 65 - 79) for $699, a Silver Senior Premium Pass (ages 80 - 89) for $149, a 90+ Premium Pass at no cost, a Youth Premium Pass (ages 7 - 18) for $349, a For20s Premium Pass (ages 19 - 29) for $349, and a new For30s Premium Pass (ages 30 - 39) for $549



And Sugrbush responds very nicely.


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## benski (Mar 8, 2017)

What about the college pass. Last year it was 310 for all mountain an 360 with mad river.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

College passes will be offered for sale in the fall. Prices won't be announced until then is my guess just like they do every year with those.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

A couple other key notes from the e-mail:

They plan to limit the number of "Premium" passes sold in the spring at these prices to prevent an increase beyond what they feel is a comfortable capacity.

Over the course of the next two seasons both the Village Double and Sunshine Double lifts will also be replaced.


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## TheArchitect (Mar 8, 2017)

Out of curiousity, what was the price last season for the adult premium pass?


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

The early purchase price last year was $1149 for the All Mountain 7 Adult pass (which is what they called it up until now)


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## TheArchitect (Mar 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The early purchase price last year was $1149 for the All Mountain 7 Adult pass (which is what they called it up until now)



Thanks.  A $350 price drop is pretty significant.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

They did drop the free pass for a kid 12 and under with the purchase of a regular adult one, although the price nets out the same as you would have paid last year due to the price drop of the adult pass.

The For20s pass went up $10. The "For30s" pass is an expansion of the "Early 30s" pass that they just offered for the first time last year. Last year it was announced in late summer and covered ages 30-35. It cost $499 last year, so it went up $50 this year, but at the same time the age range was expanded up to 39 so ultimately people in that age range save substantially over the longer term even with the $50 increase.


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## bushpilot (Mar 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The early purchase price last year was $1149 for the All Mountain 7 Adult pass (which is what they called it up until now)



That was the price between spring season pricing and ended right after labor day. September 9th iirc. I think 799 is what they charged last year if you purchased before the end of the season.


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## bushpilot (Mar 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They did drop the free pass for a kid 12 and under with the purchase of a regular adult one, although the price nets out the same as you would have paid last year due to the price drop of the adult pass.



If they dropped the free child under 12 deal I might have to drop sugarbush. I paid (I can't remember because I am OLD) last spring and my kid was free.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> That was the price between spring season pricing and ended right after labor day. September 9th iirc. I think 799 is what they charged last year if you purchased before the end of the season.



$1149 was the early spring price until May 4th last year (that's what I paid in early April). The next price was $1449 through September 14. After that it went up to $1779.


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## bushpilot (Mar 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> $1149 was the early spring price until May 4th last year (that's what I paid in early April). The next price was $1449 through September 14. After that it went up to $1779.



Are you sure? Is my memory that bad? lol


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

The Mt Ellen 7 Plus pass was $795 last year at spring rates and included a free kid ME 7 Plus pass. The new "Value" pass is $549 for adults and 249 for kids, so that pass still nets out to the same as well even with having to buy the kid pass for that one too.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Are you sure? Is my memory that bad? lol



I am 100% sure. I have the e-mail receipt to prove it :razz:


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## benski (Mar 8, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> If they dropped the free child under 12 deal I might have to drop sugarbush. I paid (I can't remember because I am OLD) last spring and my kid was free.



These rates are the same since the adult pass is much cheeper the difference is the same cost as the youth pass.


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## bushpilot (Mar 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I am 100% sure. I have the e-mail receipt to prove it :razz:



Oh dear, I am old!


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

I concur.  it was $1149.  I was just looking at that.  Curious to see this year's full pricing schedule and how this all plays out.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

Wait I did not get that email with the pricing changes from Sugarbush.  When was it sent?


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## tumbler (Mar 9, 2017)

Win didn't send it to you


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

Nope.  I got all the other emails.  I will check my spam filter.


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2017)

It was sent yesterday around 5-5:30PM Hawk.  I get e-mails from Sugarbush on several different accounts. The account that received that particular e-mail is oddly enough not the one I use to login to the Sugarbush website and order my pass. No idea why that one is associated with me being a "passholder" instead of the one I use on the Sugarbush online store.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

Interesting.  I think I have to go to my personal email and not my business.  I think that is where I do my purchases.  Thanks Dude.


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## teleo (Mar 9, 2017)

Yes it confusing what email lists they use.  My wife and i both got the mtn collective email, but only she got the pass pricing email.  Technically she ordered the passes, so that probably explains it somehow.


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## benski (Mar 9, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Wait I did not get that email with the pricing changes from Sugarbush.  When was it sent?



Don't worry he forgot me too.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

You know, come to think of it, my wife did also.  I bet that is what happened.  Thanks Teleo.



teleo said:


> Yes it confusing what email lists they use.  My wife and i both got the mtn collective email, but only she got the pass pricing email.  Technically she ordered the passes, so that probably explains it somehow.


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## Scruffy (Mar 9, 2017)

What's the conditions at the Bush? All this talk of passes is nice but, what's happening on the ground now?

Heading up this weekend. What should I expect? I fear nothing but slick groomers, but I'm hoping for some bumps. 

Mt. Ellen?

Thanks.


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## rocks860 (Mar 9, 2017)

I'm heading up Saturday but may not ski until Monday or Tuesday. Want to use my quad pack wisely 


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2017)

Sorry Scruffy.  I wish I had better news.  There is some snow in the forecast over the next 2 days so hopefully it over achieves.  Saturday's forecast calls for 0 degrees and 25 mile an hour winds. I will be there as I have been away at other mountains for the last month but it's not looking pretty.



Scruffy said:


> What's the conditions at the Bush? All this talk of passes is nice but, what's happening on the ground now?
> 
> Heading up this weekend. What should I expect? I fear nothing but slick groomers, but I'm hoping for some bumps.
> 
> ...


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## WWF-VT (Mar 9, 2017)

Mt Ellen is ugly today...dust on ice and I didn't  bother skiing


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2017)

Last weekend skied surprisingly well (on the groomers). Without some significant snow I wouldn't expect to be skiing any bumps though (although some will surely be open for those die-hard ice-bump skiers).


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## Scruffy (Mar 9, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Sorry Scruffy.  I wish I had better news.  There is some snow in the forecast over the next 2 days so hopefully it over achieves.  Saturday's forecast calls for 0 degrees and 25 mile an hour winds. I will be there as I have been away at other mountains for the last month but it's not looking pretty.



Thanks for the bad news. Kinda what I was expecting. :sad:


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2017)

They better have brought in extra beverages because our crew will be hitting that part hard


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Whoa:
> 
> In addition to the benefits of the Mountain Collective, we are making a number of changes to our Sugarbush season passes for next year. We will now offer a Sugarbush Adult Premium Pass (ages 40 - 64) for only $799, a Senior Premium Pass (ages 65 - 79) for $699, a Silver Senior Premium Pass (ages 80 - 89) for $149, a 90+ Premium Pass at no cost, a Youth Premium Pass (ages 7 - 18) for $349, a For20s Premium Pass (ages 19 - 29) for $349, and a new For30s Premium Pass (ages 30 - 39) for $549



Wow. Big drop in prices. Not anticipated. You can thank Vail for that.


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## MC1 (Mar 10, 2017)

Not sure if I missed this info but,  is SB done blowing snow for the year ?  Thanks


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2017)

MC1 said:


> Not sure if I missed this info but,  is SB done blowing snow for the year ?  Thanks



My guess is yes. Last week was a big surprise to many that they decided to blow. Typically they build the depth they want on each trail and rarely go back after that unless they think the core spring trails need more (Steins/Snowball/Spring Fling).


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2017)

cdskier said:


> My guess is yes. Last week was a big surprise to many that they decided to blow. Typically they build the depth they want on each trail and rarely go back after that unless they think the core spring trails need more (Steins/Snowball/Spring Fling).



Win said just for GMVS on MRV.  Way to taget your demographic.


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Win said just for GMVS on MRV.  Way to taget your demographic.



GMVS could be paying for that though. One time they fired up really late March or maybe even April for GMVS I seem to recall.


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2017)

cdskier said:


> GMVS could be paying for that though. One time they fired up really late March or maybe even April for GMVS I seem to recall.



True- but bad look when every practically every other area in the Northeast is firing up their system.  Just do it on one trail- not Downspout.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hopefully snowmaking will be a moot point this time next week.


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## rocks860 (Mar 10, 2017)

Looks like Tuesday Wednesday is gonna be prime, maybe I'll just ski Tuesday Wednesday Thursday friday


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 10, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Looks like *Tuesday Wednesday is gonna be prime, maybe I'll just ski Tuesday Wednesday Thursday friday*



Wow, slow your roll.   These are not chickens yet.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 10, 2017)

That looks to be about 76 chickens.


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## shadyjay (Mar 10, 2017)

This afternoon's Snow report says snowmaking will resume tonight on Straight Shot and Inverness, lasting until sometime tomorrow morning.


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## rocks860 (Mar 10, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, slow your roll.   These are not chickens yet.
> 
> View attachment 22107



I'm there for a week, I have a quad pack. Those seem to be the most reasonable days to use the tickets, am I wrong?


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I'm there for a week, I have a quad pack. Those seem to be the most reasonable days to use the tickets, am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Going right during a storm holds a high likelihood of wind holds and other weather related delays. Based on the current predictions I wouldn't want to start until Wednesday/Thursday when the storm has ended. But also, don't forget Thursday is $30 at Mt Ellen so no point in wasting a quad pack ticket that day.


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## chuckstah (Mar 11, 2017)

And Friday is $17 at ME and also at MRG, if they reopen. 

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## hovercraft (Mar 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I'm there for a week, I have a quad pack. Those seem to be the most reasonable days to use the tickets, am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  Since you are going to be there let the weather dictate when you go to the mountain.  Why make your plans now when you have the ability to decide in the moment?  Just saying.......


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## Los (Mar 11, 2017)

Does anyone have any experience with their seasonal programs for kids? I want to make Sugarbush our home mountain next year, but was hoping to get some intel first on the quality of their seasonal program (I have a bunch of kids) and anything overall to be aware of or to keep in mind. We were at Cannon last year and are Bretton woods this year....  I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts... Please feel free to pm me as well. THANKS!


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2017)

I'm not locking anything in but those seem like the logical days


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## bushpilot (Mar 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I'm there for a week, I have a quad pack. Those seem to be the most reasonable days to use the tickets, am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Tuesday Wednesday @ LP Thursday and Friday @ MElllen ($30 & $17) Saturday & Sunday @ LP. If Tuesday is windy use the ticket on Monday instead. Also all of those days you could head over to Bolton and ski @ night from 4pm - 10pm for 20 bucks. From Tuesday @ 8am until Sunday @ 4pm there are only 40 hours you can't ride a lift but there is always skinning.


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## Tin (Mar 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, slow your roll.   These are not chickens yet.
> 
> View attachment 22107




Pro-lifers would disagree.   #chickenlivesmatter


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Tuesday Wednesday @ LP Thursday and Friday @ MElllen ($30 & $17) Saturday & Sunday @ LP. If Tuesday is windy use the ticket on Monday instead. Also all of those days you could head over to Bolton and ski @ night from 4pm - 10pm for 20 bucks. From Tuesday @ 8am until Sunday @ 4pm there are only 40 hours you can't ride a lift but there is always skinning.



Ive got the quad pack which was a gift so I'm gonna use those tickets for sure. I'm leaving on Saturday and I don't know if I can survive more than 4 days so I'll probably just ski those 4. I would definitely die if I followed that plan


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## bushpilot (Mar 11, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Ive got the quad pack which was a gift so I'm gonna use those tickets for sure. I'm leaving on Saturday and I don't know if I can survive more than 4 days so I'll probably just ski those 4. I would definitely die if I followed that plan
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You can do it! I'll be there by your side the whole time! Already told my boss I'm out at lunch time on Tuesday and don't expect me on Wednesday. Bring it on!!!


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> You can do it! I'll be there by your side the whole time! Already told my boss I'm out at lunch time on Tuesday and don't expect me on Wednesday. Bring it on!!!



Haha I think you may underestimate how out of shape I am but I will definitely be out and will take some runs if you want


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## smac75 (Mar 11, 2017)

Los said:


> Does anyone have any experience with their seasonal programs for kids? I want to make Sugarbush our home mountain next year, but was hoping to get some intel first on the quality of their seasonal program (I have a bunch of kids) and anything overall to be aware of or to keep in mind. We were at Cannon last year and are Bretton woods this year....  I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts... Please feel free to pm me as well. THANKS!



Second year of Blazers for us. Loving it this year. Struggled last year which I think is common for newcomers to the program.  So much assessing at the beginning and I felt so many groups are carry overs from previous years.  This year my oldest was back with most of same kids which is great but a new coach which has also turned out to be great. We lucked out and got a local ski bum. There seems to be high turn over with the coaches but every single one we have met so far are very nice and really seem to love the job.  I know kids in the mountaineering program as well - they do some cool stuff! And those coaches and hard core SB lifers. Overall we are very happy. Kids would rather ski with their groups than us and we are equally happy to go off and do our own thing. It's been a nice lesson in independence for them as well.  I hope that helps!


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2017)

This isn't totally relevant to your question but I grew up taking lessons at sugarbush and I loved it


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## benski (Mar 11, 2017)

smac75 said:


> We lucked out and got a local ski bum. There seems to be high turn over with the coaches but every single one we have met so far are very nice and really seem to love the job.  I know kids in the mountaineering program as well - they do some cool stuff! And those coaches and hard core SB lifers. Overall we are very happy. Kids would rather ski with their groups than us and we are equally happy to go off and do our own thing. It's been a nice lesson in independence for them as well.  I hope that helps!



Think there is much higher turnover for younger groups than older groups, at least thats how it was a few years ago. Coaches for the older groups seems to be the same people year after year.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 12, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Win said just for GMVS on MRV.  Way to taget your demographic.



IIRC GMVS pays for the trail use, including snowmaking.  GMVS is competing with BMA and Cannon to some extent. 

Are any of you surprised that SB is not making snow elsewhere?  I'm not.  We've had this conversation about SB's snowmaking ad nauseum.  


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> IIRC GMVS pays for the trail use, including snowmaking.  GMVS is competing with BMA and Cannon to some extent.
> 
> Are any of you surprised that SB is not making snow elsewhere?  I'm not.  We've had this conversation about SB's snowmaking ad nauseum.



Agreed on all counts. I was surprised they ended up making snow last weekend. Conditions this weekend were ok, but were better last weekend. Saturday at least you had a couple inches of natural that fell as long as you avoided the wind blown spots. Today was just pure fast and firm everywhere. Saw several spots where you had ice showing (I'm guessing wind overnight blew off whatever they groomed in those spots since I was out early today and there were not many people there so it shouldn't have been scraped off that quickly).

Hopefully this storm delivers some decent snow so I don't need to keep skiing groomers non-stop.


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## Griswold (Mar 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Agreed on all counts. I was surprised they ended up making snow last weekend. Conditions this weekend were ok, but were better last weekend. Saturday at least you had a couple inches of natural that fell as long as you avoided the wind blown spots. Today was just pure fast and firm everywhere. Saw several spots where you had ice showing (I'm guessing wind overnight blew off whatever they groomed in those spots since I was out early today and there were not many people there so it shouldn't have been scraped off that quickly).
> 
> Hopefully this storm delivers some decent snow so I don't need to keep skiing groomers non-stop.



You must be talking about lower organ grinder, right?  Couldn't believe how bad it was first thing this morning, considering it was groomed.  I think you're right about this wind blowing off all the snow.  It was actually much better after lunch.  


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2017)

Griswold said:


> You must be talking about lower organ grinder, right?  Couldn't believe how bad it was first thing this morning, considering it was groomed.  I think you're right about this wind blowing off all the snow.  It was actually much better after lunch.



You hit the nail on the head with lower OG. In particular the turn it makes below the last intersection with lower Jester was really ugly.


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## Hawk (Mar 13, 2017)

benski said:


> Think there is much higher turnover for younger groups than older groups, at least thats how it was a few years ago. Coaches for the older groups seems to be the same people year after year.


This is the case for most mountains.  No one wants the younger groups because they are high maintenance and you are limited to where you can go and what you can do.  At Sugarbush the older groups go pretty much everywhere and most of them spent the whole day in the woods.  There is very little turn over with the older Blazer groups.  Same guys pretty much every year.  The Mountaineering Blazers has been Diggity and Rick Hale for years and now Waitie.  Those guys do a great job and go everywhere.  I saw them headed up to Alyns Lodge on Saturday for a sleep over.


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## Hawk (Mar 13, 2017)

Los said:


> Does anyone have any experience with their seasonal programs for kids? I want to make Sugarbush our home mountain next year, but was hoping to get some intel first on the quality of their seasonal program (I have a bunch of kids) and anything overall to be aware of or to keep in mind. We were at Cannon last year and are Bretton woods this year....  I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts... Please feel free to pm me as well. THANKS!


I am not sure of your experience is with Kids groups but I think that Sugarbush it a little different that other places.  They stress more of a Free skiing itinerary and based on the group and conditions, they may spend most of the time skiing trees and advanced terrain.  The kids love it.  And as stated before, the turn over in the older groups for instructors is low and the Mountaineering Blazers coaches, Diggity, Rick and Waitie have been at SB for over 20 years.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 14, 2017)

Sugarbush to get 2 new chairs.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=547

Just saw this today on my FB feed.Apologize if its already been posted.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2017)

Passholders were told in the same e-mail that gave us a preview of the new pass prices that Village Double and Sunshine double would both be replaced over the next two years. I think I posted that here, although the news that they are replacing them both this summer instead of over the next 2 years is brand new and I just read about it myself in Win's blog a few minutes ago. So you're definitely first posting that info.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2017)

Happy to see that both Sunnyside and Village will be replaced.

I'm interested as to who will do the install and if there will be a reallignment.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Happy to see that both Sunnyside and Village will be replaced.
> 
> I'm interested as to who will do the install and if there will be a reallignment.



Village will be realigned a bit - "The new lift will begin a bit higher on the mountain-- near the existing tower 2--and terminate at the same place."


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## benski (Mar 14, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Village will be realigned a bit - "The new lift will begin a bit higher on the mountain-- near the existing tower 2--and terminate at the same place."



Thats new. The Rice/Gad brook plans show it ending much lower and on the other side of the trail. I wonder if this has anything to do with Stowe. Also the Village lift is Done for the season so I expect more stops on Gate house. Also is North Ridge done for the season but Catlerock and Slide Brooke are going to run this weekend.


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## xwhaler (Mar 14, 2017)

Yea, was annoying to have the NRX down yesterday. We lapped the GMX but the 2 trips up on the slow summit quad was all we could take.
4 days in the bitter cold/wind so weren;t overly motivated to ski hardpack groomers after skiing trees the previous 3 days further north.

This storm will help but it was amazing how little natural snow there is in the MRV and on SB vs further north (stowe, smuggs, Jay)


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## dlague (Mar 14, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> Yea, was annoying to have the NRX down yesterday. We lapped the GMX but the 2 trips up on the slow summit quad was all we could take.
> 4 days in the bitter cold/wind so weren;t overly motivated to ski hardpack groomers after skiing trees the previous 3 days further north.
> 
> This storm will help but it was amazing how little natural snow there is in the MRV and on SB vs further north (stowe, smuggs, Jay)



You need to report on those three days!


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## rocks860 (Mar 14, 2017)

Mount Ellen is basically empty right now


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## bushpilot (Mar 14, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Mount Ellen is basically empty right now
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



How are the winds?


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## xwhaler (Mar 14, 2017)

dlague said:


> You need to report on those three days!



See Catsup 948's reports from Stowe and Jay...we didnt do a report from Mt Ellen as it was just hardpack groomers.
I put up a report from Smuggs
I wish we could have taken more pics but it was so damn cold and the phones basically turned off the moment we attempted to turn them back on.

was a stellar wknd though. My 1st time to Stowe and got to ski some great stuff off map Fri-Sunday.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> How are the winds?



I'm guessing pretty strong at the summits. The afternoon snow report says 6" so far at the top, but the webcam shows a drift of about 16" at the moment. Only the summit lifts at both LP and ME have been impacted though, so that's a plus for the lower mountain.


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## rocks860 (Mar 14, 2017)

Summit is closed for wind so only gmx was open but it's basically a ghost town. Thanks to wwf-vt for taking some runs with me. Despite the fact that you can't get to much what you can get to is fantastic. Definitely a bit sketchy underneath in some spots but  I'd say there's probably at least 6 inches of powder on everything. It would appear it's only wind it at the top because there's no wind lower down to speak of.


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## rocks860 (Mar 14, 2017)

And of course it took half a hour to get back to the center of waitsfield during which time my windshield turned to a solid sheet of ice through which I couldn't see


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## shadyjay (Mar 14, 2017)

Saw someone poaching The Mall this morning, right about the time Valley House was opened.  At that time, about 4-6" on top of bare ground/ice patches/crust.  They were regretting that decision, and probably did even more once they saw their equipment afterwards.  Use caution on the natural terrain, and don't bring out your best sticks if you're destined for that terrain.  

Wind wasn't bad at all on lower el today.  Didn't make it to top of Bravo, as I stayed working on Gate House side.  I talked to the North Lynx guys and they said the wind was relatively calm.  Only HG and Summit got affected.  Tomorrow... we'll see.  

Lift maintenance crews began yesterday dismantling the Village Double, removing chairs from both ends.  It may be an inconvenience not having it, especially this weekend, but the long run will be a much-improved beginner experience for next season.


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2017)

So two lifts condemned for the year, not good.


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2017)

One lift condemned and one blew a motor right?  Village lift was schedule to be moved anyway so they can build the next phase of the base area.  Considering most people use that lift once in a great while that is not a big deal.  It is one of the first at sugarbush and was definitely at the end of its life.  The Northridge motor is troubling to me. They just replaced that thing.  I was wondering if it was bad luck or human error that blew the motor.  I am sure we will never know that answer.


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2017)

Shady, did you hear if they were selling the chairs from that lift?


shadyjay said:


> Saw someone poaching The Mall this morning, right about the time Valley House was opened.  At that time, about 4


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

Hawk said:


> One lift condemned and one blew a motor right?  Village lift was schedule to be moved anyway so they can build the next phase of the base area.  Considering most people use that lift once in a great while that is not a big deal.  It is one of the first at sugarbush and was definitely at the end of its life.  The Northridge motor is troubling to me. They just replaced that thing.  I was wondering if it was bad luck or human error that blew the motor.  I am sure we will never know that answer.



I don't know if I would say the North Ridge motor was replaced. It was rebuilt 2 years ago, but as far as I know was not a new motor. I agree it is troubling though and I'm sure Win & co are not happy that they only got 1500 hours out of a rebuild that should have given them 10000+ hours.


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2017)

From what I was told, they took the whole think apart and replaced most of the guts.  It was in very good condition and was like new.


cdskier said:


> I don't know if I would say the North Ridge motor was replaced. It was rebuilt 2 years ago, but as far as I know was not a new motor. I agree it is troubling though and I'm sure Win & co are not happy that they only got 1500 hours out of a rebuild that should have given them 10000+ hours.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> So two lifts condemned for the year, not good.



Wow. Crazy. 


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2017)

Can Northridge run on diesel instead?  Have a feeling quite the crowd will be there this weekend so having it run at reduced speed would help.  I recall HG running on diesel all spring many years ago- pre Win.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2017)

Well, I seem to recall a discussion about how well the lifts at Sugarbush were operating and how old they were.  I guess we now know the answer to that discussion--three lifts being replaced or rebuilt this summer.  Two closed during what will probably be a high demand period.  Not good in my mind.  It's just too bad that they are going to lose valuable time when everyone is going to be thinking about going Epic or staying at SB.

But what is good is that they will have two new lifts and hopefully a more reliable NRX for next season.  I bet that will be marketed.


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

At mount Ellen, not super crowded but the snow is absurd. Rim run is windscoured but everything below that is crazy. Looks like at least a foot of powder on everything and god damn is it exhausting


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I seem to recall a discussion about how well the lifts at Sugarbush were operating and how old they were.  I guess we now know the answer to that discussion--three lifts being replaced or rebuilt this summer.  Two closed during what will probably be a high demand period.  Not good in my mind.  It's just too bad that they are going to lose valuable time when everyone is going to be thinking about going Epic or staying at SB.
> 
> But what is good is that they will have two new lifts and hopefully a more reliable NRX for next season.  I bet that will be marketed.



In those discussions the two lifts that are being replaced everyone agreed were older and most likely would be the next ones to be replaced. It was in their plan to replace them so it isn't like they were ignoring them.

NRX is an unfortunate situation. Sugarbush rebuilt the motor 2 years ago so again they weren't deferring maintenance or anything like that. They essentially did exactly what they should have done and what pretty much any major resort probably would have done. They were nowhere near the theoretical end of life of that motor after the rebuild.

I still maintain the core SB lifts are very reliable at the moment. SB has been very proactive the past few years with lift upgrades and maintenance and it shows (NRX issue aside).


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2017)

Two of these lifts were ancient and were slated to be replaced.  These have been talked about and were on the capital plan.  Both doubles, both at beginner terrain and both redundant and could be covered by other lifts.  Not a big loss as far as capacity this late in the season.  Crowds are certainly going to be going down from this point and Mt Ellen is closing in a couple of weeks.

The Northridge is the only big concern most skiers and I do not understand how a motor that got totally rebuilt last year can go south so fast.



thetrailboss said:


> Well, I seem to recall a discussion about how well the lifts at Sugarbush were operating and how old they were.  I guess we now know the answer to that discussion


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## WWF-VT (Mar 15, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> At mount Ellen, not super crowded but the snow is absurd. Rim run is windscoured but everything below that is crazy. Looks like at least a foot of powder on everything and god damn is it exhausting
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I did the 8 to 11 shift and Mt Ellen was amazing this morning !


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

Hawk said:


> The Northridge is the only big concern most skiers and I do not understand how a motor that got totally rebuilt last year can go south so fast.



Yea...I would so love to know more about exactly what happened there with that motor.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> In those discussions the two lifts that are being replaced everyone agreed were older and most likely would be the next ones to be replaced. It was in their plan to replace them so it isn't like they were ignoring them.
> 
> NRX is an unfortunate situation. Sugarbush rebuilt the motor 2 years ago so again they weren't deferring maintenance or anything like that. They essentially did exactly what they should have done and what pretty much any major resort probably would have done. They were nowhere near the theoretical end of life of that motor after the rebuild.
> 
> I still maintain the core SB lifts are very reliable at the moment. SB has been very proactive the past few years with lift upgrades and maintenance and it shows (NRX issue aside).



I get all that, but look at it from the big picture perspective: we're going into the final stretch of the season and Stowe has all of its lifts going.  Sugarbush has two lifts down--one vital for an entire side of the resort and the other apparently "condemned" and visible to those who come into the main base area.  I get that two lifts were old and "they were planning to replace them," but the time for that is in the offseason, preferrably before they go bad.  We can say, "but, but" all day, but the optics just don't look good.  And remember I am a former passholder who loves SB.  If I were still there I would be shaking my head about this.  It just doesn't look good at all especially when you are getting ready to compete against the Vail behemoth.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I get all that, but look at it from the big picture perspective: we're going into the final stretch of the season and Stowe has all of its lifts going.  Sugarbush has two lifts down--one vital for an entire side of the resort and the other apparently "condemned" and visible to those who come into the main base area.  I get that two lifts were old and "they were planning to replace them," but the time for that is in the offseason, preferrably before they go bad.  We can say, "but, but" all day, but the optics just don't look good.  And remember I am a former passholder who loves SB.  If I were still there I would be shaking my head about this.  It just doesn't look good at all especially when you are getting ready to compete against the Vail behemoth.



Most passholders don't bother skiing at Mt Ellen and likely have no idea that there is an issue with the Northridge chair.  Sugarbush has made a good move allowing Mt Ellen passholders to ski at Lincoln Peak and even then there are plenty of Mt Ellen people that are OK with the GMX and Summit options.  The Village Double is another out of site, out of mind chair for the majority of passholders and it primarily affects the ski school which has Gatehouse as an alternative.

We're going into the final stretch of the season and my bet is that Sugarbush will still be spinning lifts weeks after Stowe has closed.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Most passholders don't bother skiing at Mt Ellen and likely have no idea that there is an issue with the Northridge chair.  Sugarbush has made a good move allowing Mt Ellen passholders to ski at Lincoln Peak and even then there are plenty of Mt Ellen people that are OK with the GMX and Summit options.  The Village Double is another out of site, out of mind chair for the majority of passholders and it primarily affects the ski school which has Gatehouse as an alternative.
> 
> We're going into the final stretch of the season and my bet is that Sugarbush will still be spinning lifts weeks after Stowe has closed.



Good for them to allow ME skiers to go to LP.  One thing that they have done well is customer service.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I get all that, but look at it from the big picture perspective: we're going into the final stretch of the season and Stowe has all of its lifts going.  Sugarbush has two lifts down--one vital for an entire side of the resort and the other apparently "condemned" and visible to those who come into the main base area.  I get that two lifts were old and "they were planning to replace them," but the time for that is in the offseason, preferrably before they go bad.  We can say, "but, but" all day, but the optics just don't look good.  And remember I am a former passholder who loves SB.  If I were still there I would be shaking my head about this.  It just doesn't look good at all especially when you are getting ready to compete against the Vail behemoth.



They made the decision to replace Village before it went bad. Unfortunately it happened to break after they made that decision. They could have fixed it, but being near the end of the season for a lift that is not critical at this point and with already knowing they were replacing it, they decided it wasn't worth the time and instead to start taking it apart. For people that come into the base area and "see" it...many will not even realize it broke and could easily assume SB is simply getting a head start on the replacement project.

Also not sure where the term "condemned" came from exactly. It isn't one Sugarbush used. Sugarbush's official stance on the Village lift is that it is "retired".

You can play armchair quarterback all you want after the fact, but if it was my money, I can't say I would have decided to replace the lift any sooner than what their plan called for that they are executing.

NRX...again...I don't know how you prevent something like that. Obviously we don't know all the details, but on the surface SB did very much what other mountains would have done in the same scenario. Simply proactively replacing a lift when it hits 20-25 years old is not something you see most resorts doing.

Also as WWF said, many people probably don't even realize NRX is down. These 2 lift issues aren't nearly as visible to most people as you suggest. Remember, most of the people on forums like this are not your average skier.


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2017)

Could Sunny D lift line be extended further up the hill?  Some new trails would need to be cut but I think there is some pitch in there and access to woods going towards Lower FIS.  Seems like a lot of capacity for a quad when it is really for the terrain park.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They made the decision to replace Village before it went bad. Unfortunately it happened to break after they made that decision. They could have fixed it, but being near the end of the season for a lift that is not critical at this point and with already knowing they were replacing it, they decided it wasn't worth the time and instead to start taking it apart. For people that come into the base area and "see" it...many will not even realize it broke and could easily assume SB is simply getting a head start on the replacement project.
> 
> Also not sure where the term "condemned" came from exactly. It isn't one Sugarbush used. Sugarbush's official stance on the Village lift is that it is "retired".
> 
> ...



Armchair quarterback?  Pretty sure that I said months ago that lifts were a concern.  From my POV a resort does not want to be in a position to have to explain why things aren't working.  That's all.  

My criticism is because I want the place to succeed.


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## benski (Mar 15, 2017)

No lift was condemned. The village needs a significant repair that will take 2 weeks to due so they decided it was no longer worth maintaining. 

The north ridge rebuild was a screwed up. The lift barely ran for a few weeks after the rebuild, and I think the motor had to be rebuilt in the middle of the 2015 season. I think it overheated a few times. I remember horror stories of lift rides that ended up taking over an hour.


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2017)

self condemned.  Choosing not to fix two lifts doesn't send a very good message.  As for no one knowing about Northridge it's all over the snow report.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> self condemned.  Choosing not to fix two lifts doesn't send a very good message.  As for no one knowing about Northridge it's all over the snow report.



Last I heard on NRX they were still actively trying to get it back up and running this year, but it didn't seem overly likely due to what is involved. The motor they purchased was being shipped from CA, but since it is smaller (size not horsepower), a new mounting plate needs to be fabricated or something like that and then it needs to be inspected/approved.

So I wouldn't say they are "choosing" not to fix two lifts. They are only choosing not to fix one and instead get a jump start on the replacement project of that lift.

As to your point about the snow report, true, but it simply says it is down for maintenance. I've mentioned it to a couple people and they said things like "oh yea, I remember reading that but didn't realize it was down for an extended period." I'm sure ME regulars know what is going on, but people that ski mainly LP may not truly have it "click" as to the implications.


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## benski (Mar 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Could Sunny D lift line be extended further up the hill?  Some new trails would need to be cut but I think there is some pitch in there and access to woods going towards Lower FIS.  Seems like a lot of capacity for a quad when it is really for the terrain park.



If they would do that it would add a headwall and ruin the area as a beginner area. I think some beginners still learn on sugar run. There 2008 master plan shows an additional trail on skiers right. They really should build a a better runout to lower FIS. It would be much easier if it went strait to the bottom of lower FIS.


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

The last 2 days at mt Ellen were probably my 2 best days of skiing ever. It's absolutely fantastic out there


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## WWF-VT (Mar 15, 2017)

Today was a killer Mt Ellen powder day.  Maybe 50 people in line at 8 AM and then the GMX was practically ski on the rest of the morning. There was another line waiting for the Summit chair at 9 AM then it was once again ski on after the first wave.  I was literally all alone on runs on Exterminator, Bravo and Semi Tough and at 3 PM it's still snowing.....


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## hovercraft (Mar 15, 2017)

SB pass holders should be dancing in the streets with the news that Vail bought SB.  People would always use the excuse that Stowe had more money behind them and more expensive tickets so that is why Stowe's snowmaking and lifts were better.  Now that the season pass will be on the same cost basis as SB Win has no choice but to pony up.  I see this as a big WIN for the SB pass holders.


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

Did some touching up on this picture from today, think it turned out pretty nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## bushpilot (Mar 15, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> The last 2 days at mt Ellen were probably my 2 best days of skiing ever. It's absolutely fantastic out there
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wow wow wow!!!

Wow! It was spectacular out there today!!! Son had off from school and we ripped it all day!


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Wow wow wow!!!
> 
> Wow! It was spectacular out there today!!! Son had off from school and we ripped it all day!



Agreed


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Did some touching up on this picture from today, think it turned out pretty nice



Brambles?


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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Brambles?



Exactly


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Exactly



Looks awesome. You picked a perfect week to be there. I'm stuck working while looking at the webcams all day. I did take Friday off though so I'm heading up tomorrow night once I finish work.


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## dlague (Mar 15, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> SB pass holders should be dancing in the streets with the news that Vail bought SB.  People would always use the excuse that Stowe had more money behind them and more expensive tickets so that is why Stowe's snowmaking and lifts were better.  Now that the season pass will be on the same cost basis as SB Win has no choice but to pony up.  I see this as a big WIN for the SB pass holders.


I think you meant Vail bought Stowe?

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## rocks860 (Mar 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Looks awesome. You picked a perfect week to be there. I'm stuck working while looking at the webcams all day. I did take Friday off though so I'm heading up tomorrow night once I finish work.



I'm gonna ski tomorrow and Friday, thank god im not gonna be here this weekend, don't even wanna think about what that's gonna be like 


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2017)

We will also be up there on Friday.  We were initially going to ski Mad River but they are charging $17 tomorrow.  That will bring out all the hill creatures.  Not dealing with that line.  So we will be at the Bush and will venture out deep in the woods to see what is left for fresh.  I have a feeling that our safari will be very fruitful.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 16, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I'm gonna ski tomorrow and Friday, thank god im not gonna be here this weekend, don't even wanna think about what that's gonna be like
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You really think it's gonna be that bad? It's guaranteed to be less crowded than PDW and even then the lift lines weren't that long. People are already set on Spring activities so skiing season is "done" to many. This weekend will be great regardless of crowds though, there is enough snow for everyone to enjoy.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2017)

It's not going to be that bad.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2017)

Hawk said:


> It's not going to be that bad.



That's my hope...I expect it to be busier than a normal weekend, but I still think it won't be too bad.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2017)

The biggest thing will be the quad pack people.  There will be a large number of people who held out and now will panic and head up to burn those.


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

I've been using them all week, going to use my last one tomorrow and head home on sarurday


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

Wind hold again on summit, heavens gate, north lynx and inverness


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Wind hold again on summit, heavens gate, north lynx and inverness



That will help save some powder for those of us stuck working!


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## tumbler (Mar 16, 2017)

If all the lifts and all terrain including woods are open then the crowd will be spread out.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 16, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Wind hold again on summit, heavens gate, north lynx and inverness



And the snow started again around 9:30 this morning…


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

Got to north lynx right as it cam off wind hold, my god birch run is phenomenal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## Jcb890 (Mar 16, 2017)

Get it rocks860!  It looks awesome out there!  I'm quite jealous.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Get it rocks860!  It looks awesome out there!  I'm quite jealous.



+1!


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Just took a couple runs off castlerock. Let me tell you, castlerock run did not suck


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2017)

Dude.  Sweet.  Did you get up to Heaven Gate.  That just opened also.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Dude.  Sweet.  Did you get up to Heaven Gate.  That just opened also.



I was a bit pissed that happened...was hoping wind would keep it closed all day so us people that are just getting there tomorrow could enjoy a taste of what everyone else had the past couple days 

PS...rocks...I hate you more and more with every post you make in this thread :wink: So jealous!


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2017)

You should check out the Video on Unofficial Sugarbush if you want to be jealous.

https://www.facebook.com/unofficialsugarbush/


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2017)

Hah...thanks Hawk!


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Dude.  Sweet.  Did you get up to Heaven Gate.  That just opened also.



Yeah got a run down ripcord. It was pretty icy up top but tons of snow past the first portion. Cd wouldn't have made a real big difference, people were hiking it so it was already pretty tracked out when they opened the lift


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

And now my legs literally feel like they're ripping off my body so I'm calling it a day


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## CoolMike (Mar 16, 2017)

Heading up tomorrow night - totally stoked!

What should be my game plan?  I'll only hit the Bush twice this year - this weekend and again in a few weekends.  Only have Saturday to ski and I will be with my wife who right now is an intermediate (she was good but took a year off to have my baby and is now timid).  Also she will want to do a bunch of groomed runs during the day.

Are the conditions at ME as good as LP?  I want to hit Castlerock for a run or two as well.  I bet Paradise is amazing right now.

Perhaps just stay at LP rather than try to do both in one day?

Cheers!


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## bushpilot (Mar 16, 2017)

CoolMike said:


> Heading up tomorrow night - totally stoked!
> 
> What should be my game plan?  I'll only hit the Bush twice this year - this weekend and again in a few weekends.  Only have Saturday to ski and I will be with my wife who right now is an intermediate (she was good but took a year off to have my baby and is now timid).  Also she will want to do a bunch of groomed runs during the day.
> 
> ...



Stay at LP. Groomers will be good. Yesterday gatehouse was empty (usually pretty corwded on weekends) so my son and I stayed over there for a while. Birch was great and sleeper (chutes and the blue one) were wonderful. Moonshine and Lixi's were a little thin in spots but very nice.


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## bushpilot (Mar 16, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> And now my legs literally feel like they're ripping off my body so I'm calling it a day
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Lightweight!!! Take some beta alanine and eat a pickle and get back out there before it all melts! Next time you want to call it quits at 1 come cover for me at work and I will get after it! :wink:


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## rocks860 (Mar 16, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Lightweight!!! Take some beta alanine and eat a pickle and get back out there before it all melts! Next time you want to call it quits at 1 come cover for me at work and I will get after it! :wink:



1? More like 3 and never stopped for lunch or anything. This was moonshine today, bit thin in spots but super covered everywhere else. Very fun and didn't see another soul on it 










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## bushpilot (Mar 16, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> 1? More like 3 and never stopped for lunch or anything.



Sorry :-o Time stamp on your post was 1. Come cover for me anyway! 

If the school bus comes on time tomorrow I am planning on LP until noon to be at work for a 1pm meeting. Any bets I am late to that meeting? I never leave when I have to.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 16, 2017)

Anybody know when Sugarbush usually switches over to closing lifts at 5pm? I know it's towards the end of March but was not quite sure when.


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## shadyjay (Mar 16, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Anybody know when Sugarbush usually switches over to closing lifts at 5pm? I know it's towards the end of March but was not quite sure when.



Don't know yet about this year, but in years past, it's been after Mt Ellen closes, so that would be sometime after April 2 this year.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 16, 2017)

I'll be up at the Bush this weekend. 
The Castlerock Comp is on Sunday. Wondering if that changes the regular advice of ME on Sat and LP on Sun as the best shot to sidestep crowds, short of staying at ME the whole time?
I don't expect it to be uncrowded anywhere.


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## rocks860 (Mar 17, 2017)

Happy st patty's day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## tumbler (Mar 17, 2017)

Sweet sweet nectar!!! I can't to have about 3 later when I pull in.


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## rocks860 (Mar 17, 2017)

I'm slowly recalling that I haven't eaten anything today. Maybe this was a bad choice


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## tumbler (Mar 17, 2017)

No it is the perfect choice for your legs


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 17, 2017)

you guys are freaking killing me in this thread.  Stoke, Sip of Sunshine...  How the hell am I supposed to get anything done today!


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## JDMRoma (Mar 17, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> I'm slowly recalling that I haven't eaten anything today. Maybe this was a bad choice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Eating is Bad for your buzz !
Drop another SOS and you'll be fine 


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## rocks860 (Mar 17, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Well easily at least the top 2 days of skiing of my life and the other 2 were great as well, this week definitely made the whole season worthwhile.

Semi tough was still amazing today and brambles was still great. Skied lower fis which has good snow but the run out was rough. Exterminator was good too although the top was a bit icy


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2017)

Pretty awesome out there today and actually less crowded than I expected. 

My legs definitely felt like jello at the end of the day though!


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## rocks860 (Mar 17, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Castlerock run? Looks familiar  or is it birch?


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## prsboogie (Mar 17, 2017)

JDMRoma said:


> Eating is Bad for your buzz !
> Drop another SOS and you'll be fine
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Ask Tin about ripping SOS at MRG!! Hysterical!!!!


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## rocks860 (Mar 17, 2017)

I want to put up a whole trip report but I'm too lazy to at this point, to many beers to dull the pain in my legs


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Castlerock run? Looks familiar  or is it birch?



Sunrise for one and Middle Earth for the other picture


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## Tin (Mar 18, 2017)

prsboogie said:


> Ask Tin about ripping SOS at MRG!! Hysterical!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Think it is better that happened at MRG than Bush. Would have ended up 50' from the base of the Church, stuck up in a tree dead. Going to try to get to Bush Friday!


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## rocks860 (Mar 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sunrise for one and Middle Earth for the other picture
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Ah well right peaks, wrong trails. Thursday I thought castlerock run was a lot better than middle earth. Middle earth was a bit icier.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 20, 2017)

Mountain was great this weekend! Quite crowded on Saturday at Lincoln peak but it died down after around 11am. Plenty of powder if you knew where to look. Sunday at Mt Ellen though was even better. Completely deserted so it was a non-issue that North Ridge lift was down. This was the first time I spent some time exploring Inverness as well. Walt's, Semi-tough, and Brambles (and all of the woods in between) were spectacular. Surprised how good those were actually!


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## benski (Mar 20, 2017)

MT Ellen was probably deserted Saturday due to the lack of north ridge.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

benski said:


> MT Ellen was probably deserted Saturday due to the lack of north ridge.



I still question how many people truly realize it is down. On Saturday in line at Summit someone was complaining that "I can't believe NRX is down. It wasn't even mentioned in the snow report". I turned around and said that it has been mentioned in the snow report for the past few weeks. Just goes to show how people don't really read that carefully (which is what I said earlier in this thread).

Overall it was a great weekend for sure. I keep dreaming of how absolutely amazing this winter would have been if we hadn't had those damn warm-ups over and over.


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## tumbler (Mar 20, 2017)

Awesome weekend!!  You know it's good when Downspout is skiing well!!


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I still question how many people truly realize it is down. On Saturday in line at Summit someone was complaining that "I can't believe NRX is down. It wasn't even mentioned in the snow report". I turned around and said that it has been mentioned in the snow report for the past few weeks. Just goes to show how people don't really read that carefully (which is what I said earlier in this thread).
> 
> Overall it was a great weekend for sure. I keep dreaming of how absolutely amazing this winter would have been if we hadn't had those damn warm-ups over and over.


I would guess that the vast majority of skiers/riders don't read the snow reports at all, never mind carefully.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I would guess that the vast majority of skiers/riders don't read the snow reports at all, never mind carefully.



I'd agree, although if you're going to make a comment that something isn't in the report, you should at least make sure that really is the case before opening your mouth quite loudly in a lift line


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I'd agree, although if you're going to make a comment that something isn't in the report, you should at least make sure that really is the case before opening your mouth quite loudly in a lift line


Haha yeah, I'd agree with that statement.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 20, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Maybe I got lucky and avoided crowds or had very low expectations but I didn't think Saturday at LP was terribly crowded. Busy yes not crazy. Sunday at ME was verrry empty until 10:30/11 ish but never got too busy. Ppl I talked to on lifts Sunday said ME was pretty busy on Sat but not as bad as LP. 
Castlerock competitors had a rough course. 
Anyone know why Heavens Gate was down for a while on Sat?


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 20, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Maybe I got lucky and avoided crowds or had very low expectations but I didn't think Saturday at LP was terribly crowded. Busy yes not crazy. Sunday at ME was verrry empty until 10:30/11 ish but never got too busy. Ppl I talked to on lifts Sunday said ME was pretty busy on Sat but not as bad as LP.
> Castlerock competitors had a rough course.
> Anyone know why Heavens Gate was down for a while on Sat?


LP was only actually crowded while heavens gate was down. Before and after that it was fine. Something mechanical, it went down while I was on it actually. 5-10 minutes later it moved in "limp mode" until I got to the top. When I got to the bottom of paradise, the lift was non moving and mechanics were working on it. Was back up by like noon though so it must not have been too serious. 

Castle Rock looked pretty decent compared to how it was for the last month. Lift Line ran pretty well (pretty soft, good cover) on Saturday so I imagine it was alright on Sunday. I bet it got beat down pretty good by the end of it though!


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 20, 2017)

Guess I was doing lunch during the worst of the crowds. 
Castlerock liftline looked pretty ok to me except for the top sections, which are always at least a little rocky but I thought looked very rocky on sat, especially for hosting a comp. unless the comp was so extreme that ppl hucked the whole section in one shot.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Guess I was doing lunch during the worst of the crowds.
> Castlerock liftline looked pretty ok to me except for the top sections, which are always at least a little rocky but I thought looked very rocky on sat, especially for hosting a comp. unless the comp was so extreme that ppl hucked the whole section in one shot.



Well it is called the "Castlerock Extreme Challenge" after all. There was some big-time hucking off the rocks going on in the pictures Sugarbush posted on Facebook, although not sure if it is the exact same section you're talking about.


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## kingslug (Mar 20, 2017)

Maybe I'm not used to it but it was pretty busy Saturday. Went over to Ellen for a while to beat the crowds.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 20, 2017)

^^ it was meant tounge in cheek. 
But yes I have no doubt there was serious hucking in the comp. I was tempted to head over there to watch.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> ^^ it was meant tounge in cheek.
> But yes I have no doubt there was serious hucking in the comp. I was tempted to head over there to watch.



By the time we got to Sunday my legs wanted no part of anymore bumps so even thinking about taking a ride up CR to watch was out of the question for me.

I wonder how many quad pack tickets were used up this weekend? I'd be willing to bet quite a few. I'm (selfishly) hoping most are now used up so people are less tempted to come up the rest of the season. :-D


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 20, 2017)

I have to believe the majority of quad packs are used up after this past weekend. I and a friend burned mine but that doesn't mean I won't be at the bush again this season.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Anyone know why Heavens Gate was down for a while on Sat?



Here's the answer:

"One of our ski patrol teammates spotted rubber fraying on a sheave wheel and quickly brought it to the attention of our lift mechanics. The lift was stopped immediately for safety reasons until a lift mechanic could get there and physically observe the tower. It was then deemed safe to run but slowly to clear the line. At which point the mechanics were ready to climb the tower and replace the sheave wheel which was done in 10-15 minutes At that point the lift reopened for the day"


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 24, 2017)

Wow Thursday had some great conditions thanks to the closed lifts on Wednesday. Currently snowing again right now on Friday morning so it's looking like this weekend should be pretty good! Hopefully not too many wind holds today but either way it's nice to see winter still fighting to stick around.


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## Hawk (Mar 24, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> I have to believe the majority of quad packs are used up after this past weekend. I and a friend burned mine but that doesn't mean I won't be at the bush again this season. :
> 
> This has not been the case in years past.  There are a large amount of people who save the quad packs for spring skiing in early April when the snow is soft and the temps are warm.  I friend of mine in the office told me that almost 1/3 of the quad packs are redeemed in the last 6 weeks of operation.  People wait until the last minute.  Last year there were many people in the parking lot tryng to sell their left over quad packs.


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 28, 2017)

i was at ellen today and was able to peel away from my son's lesson for a couple two three runs...exterminator was a workout


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## WWF-VT (Mar 30, 2017)

Bluebird sunny day in the 30's at Lincoln Peak today.   Groomers all softened up nicely, ungroomed/natural a different story.  Steins was bumped up and shiny in the sun, Organgrinder another icy mess not worth skiing.  Ripcord was very nice today.  Looks like there will be decent snow at elevation Friday into Saturday and it will be interesting to see what gets groomed tonight to set up for the weekend.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Looks like there will be decent snow at elevation Friday into Saturday and it will be interesting to see what gets groomed tonight to set up for the weekend.



I hate when they don't update the grooming report at night showing what will be groomed for the next day. Snow Report says 47 being groomed tonight yet the trail status still only shows the 41 that were groomed last night.

I'm loading up the car and leaving in a few minutes to beat the snow tomorrow. I'll be working remotely thanks to the wifi in the lodge at LP in the morning tomorrow, then skiing in the afternoon ideally.


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## bushpilot (Mar 30, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I hate when they don't update the grooming report at night showing what will be groomed for the next day. Snow Report says 47 being groomed tonight yet the trail status still only shows the 41 that were groomed last night.
> 
> I'm loading up the car and leaving in a few minutes to beat the snow tomorrow. I'll be working remotely thanks to the wifi in the lodge at LP in the morning tomorrow, then skiing in the afternoon ideally.



Might see you there in the afternoon. Planning on going from the bush to bolton @ 4 for some twilight powder.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2017)

On my way in the afternoon.  Looks like tomorrow morning will be really good.  Yet another early ups bonanza!  How did the crusty layer hold up in the woods and down low this week?  I am assuming it didn't melt out and there is a good hard base everywhere so the skiing in the woods will be in play.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 31, 2017)

Is Mt Ellen supposed to be closing this weekend? Seems like that would be unfortunate with all this new snow falling.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2017)

That's the deal over there every year.  People bitch but they start to wind down on April 1.  With the decline of skier visits it does not make sense to have all the facilities open.  They waste money and that is something that Win does not do.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2017)

Yup, last weekend of March/first weekend of April is always the closing date for ME. Nothing new. This has been the plan for a while now and is known in advance.

And it is just starting to lightly snow now up here at Sugarbush.


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## Duncanator24 (Mar 31, 2017)

Makes sense, I figured that was the case. Curious if they are okay with people hiking up the hill to ski it after the lifts are done for the season. Not that i would do it, but I could see there being value in that. Mountain certainly should go out with a bang this weekend at least!

I would think hiking/skinning over via the Long Trail from Castle Rock would be the best way to get there.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2017)

Yes, they absolutely are ok with hiking ME after it closes for the season (and even "actively" encourage it in facebook posts or even in the snow report)


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## bushpilot (Apr 1, 2017)

See you there!!! &#55356;&#57279;


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Apr 1, 2017)

Expect SB to be open still Easter weekend? If so how are conditions expected.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 1, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> View attachment 22316
> 
> See you there!!! ��


Wow that's awesome! Hopefully not too much rain/warm crap during the week so that I can hit the leftovers next weekend. Glad the spring is turning out this way!


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2017)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Expect SB to be open still Easter weekend? If so how are conditions expected.



Absolutely. They will be open daily until April 23 and then one more weekend after that unless we get a major heat wave. For conditions you'll need to wait until closer to that date to see what happens with the weather between now and then. I would most likely expect some natural trails especially at lower elevations to be closed by Easter unless it stays unusually cool and snowy. That's not overly likely though.


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## bushpilot (Apr 1, 2017)

Wow! Nice start to April. Not sure how the end of the month will be but today was spectacular!!!

In case you are wondering which one was me, I was hootin and hollering on every run lol. 

It was so delicious!


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Wow! Nice start to April. Not sure how the end of the month will be but today was spectacular!!!
> 
> In case you are wondering which one was me, I was hootin and hollering on every run lol.
> 
> It was so delicious!



I think you described half the people on the mountain lol. I heard tons of people shouting for joy.

It was heavy but sure was tons of fun out there today!



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## bushpilot (Apr 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think you described half the people on the mountain lol. I heard tons of people shouting for joy.
> 
> It was heavy but sure was tons of fun out there today!
> 
> ...



And every time someone yelled I had to yell back! It was just one of those days. Nice and empty too. Had to leave at noon to go to work but should be heading back tomorrow.


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## bushpilot (Apr 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think you described half the people on the mountain lol. I heard tons of people shouting for joy.
> 
> It was heavy but sure was tons of fun out there today!
> 
> ...



And every time someone yelled I had to yell back! It was just one of those days. Nice and empty too. Had to leave at noon to go to work but should be heading back tomorrow.


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## MommaBear (Apr 1, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> And every time someone yelled I had to yell back! It was just one of those days. Nice and empty too. Had to leave at noon to go to work but should be heading back tomorrow.




Ha, I gave a woo hoo on my way up the first lift ride and my 16 yo looked at me like I was crazy.  And then there were woo hoo's from the woods in response...lol!  Heard them all day long, even on the last run.  Great day.


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## cdskier (Apr 2, 2017)

Mt Ellen was incredible this morning. Trails like bravo, exterminator, and encore were in some of the best shape I can remember in quite a while. 

I had 3rd chair up summit and the packed powder groomed run down rim run to elbow was perhaps the best groomed run I've ever had.






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## WWF-VT (Apr 3, 2017)

I lapped the Summit chair at Mt Ellen until 4 PM yesterday.  It was soft hero snow all day and a blast to ski.


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## tumbler (Apr 3, 2017)

Incredible weekend!!  Saturday was up there for top days of the year.  Sunday was glorious.


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## Hawk (Apr 3, 2017)

Saturday was a top 20 day for me.  So many untracked runs and so many 1st one downs also.  We ended up doing 6 slidebrooks and had good bus charma to boot.  YAHOO.     Sunday was great.  No lines and soft snow.  HG, Castlerock, NL all good.  Mt Ellen closed with 100% of the trails open.  That will be a skinners paradise this week.


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## Hawk (Apr 3, 2017)

Saturday was a top 20 day for me.  So many untracked runs and so many 1st one downs also.  We ended up doing 6 slidebrooks and had good bus charma to boot.  YAHOO.     Sunday was great.  No lines and soft snow.  HG, Castlerock, NL all good.  Mt Ellen closed with 100% of the trails open.  That will be a skinners paradise this week.


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## cdskier (Apr 3, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> I lapped the Summit chair at Mt Ellen until 4 PM yesterday.  It was soft hero snow all day and a blast to ski.



I have to admit, I really was starting to enjoy North Ridge being down. Even when Summit is loading every chair to capacity, the trails all feel empty. Trails like Bravo and Exterminator seem to hold up better as well with the reduced traffic.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2017)

Good news:  new motor for NRX, new lifts, snowmaking pipe on Which Way.  

Bad news:  Rumble (the dog) passed.  I remember seeing him when he was a puppy.

https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins...-views-april-2017&utm_campaign=mountain-views


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## skimagic (Apr 8, 2017)

*New Snow*

Sugarbush is reporting a foot of new snow,  Lincoln Peak   100%open.  Amazing.


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## bushpilot (Apr 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Good news:  new motor for NRX, new lifts, snowmaking pipe on Which Way.
> 
> 
> https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins...-views-april-2017&utm_campaign=mountain-views



Better news: foot of snow today and sunshine and 50s tomorrow! Another amazing weekend!!!


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## teleo (Apr 8, 2017)

Paradise this morning was awesome.  As was all the upper mtn.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## cdskier (Apr 8, 2017)

teleo said:


> Paradise this morning was awesome.  As was all the upper mtn.



Who would have thought we would have two awesome powder weekends in a row in April?!?!


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 8, 2017)

Best day of skiing today out of this entire season. Powder was so light and fluffy and so much coverage in the woods. Weirdest thing ever though was no line at Castlerock from open until like 1pm. Bizarre on a Saturday, but that's the beauty of coming up in April!


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## skimagic (Apr 8, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Best day of skiing today out of this entire season. Powder was so light and fluffy and so much coverage in the woods. Weirdest thing ever though was no line at Castlerock from open until like 1pm. Bizarre on a Saturday, but that's the beauty of coming up in April!



I can't get there until Monday,  is it likely the castlerock chair would be running?


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## cdskier (Apr 8, 2017)

skimagic said:


> I can't get there until Monday,  is it likely the castlerock chair would be running?



They will run it daily until CR closes when the snow melts there I would expect. That's what they've done in the past.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## shadyjay (Apr 9, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They will run it daily until CR closes when the snow melts there I would expect. That's what they've done in the past.



Got word this afternoon that Castlerock and North Lynx areas are done, per the snow report.  My guess is that there isn't much left of the runout, and the blowtorch over the next 2 days will kill it.  Ski/ride the natural terrain while you can.  The Mall looked great today.


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## cdskier (Apr 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> Got word this afternoon that Castlerock and North Lynx areas are done, per the snow report.  My guess is that there isn't much left of the runout, and the blowtorch over the next 2 days will kill it.  Ski/ride the natural terrain while you can.  The Mall looked great today.



I was a bit surprised to read that in the afternoon snow report after I left. I thought we would have had a bit more time left with both areas. Usually CR in particular has hints in the snow report of it getting closer to the end for several days before it actually closes.


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## Hawk (Apr 10, 2017)

Ya I can see castlerock.  The bottom was thin and the temps this week with possible rain will not do them any favors.  But north Lynx was covered wall to wall with good conditions.  We will have to see what happens.  It does face the sun.  Saturday powder was great.  First chair at Bravo and maybe 4th on HG.  Sunday was unbelievable sunny conditions.  Pond skimming was a blast and there were parties all over the mountain.  Good day.


shadyjay said:


> Got word this afternoon that Castlerock and North Lynx areas are done, per the snow report.  My guess is that there isn't much left of the runout, and the blowtorch over the next 2 days will kill it.  Ski/ride the natural terrain while you can.  The Mall looked great today.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 10, 2017)

I would think they are trying to preserve what little is left so that CR and NL can make it for at least next weekend. There was more snow on CR this weekend than there has been all season so I really doubt they are closed just yet. North Lynx directly faces the sun though so this warmer weather is definitely going to bake the snow off of there.


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## Hawk (Apr 10, 2017)

I don't think so.  They were shoveling snow on the bottom of CR on Sunday.  With a week of 60's and 70's plus some rain I doubt they will make it.


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## tumbler (Apr 10, 2017)

I have a feeling this is budget driven, it is almost mid-April.  Lay off the rest of the lift ops and year round staff operates for the rest of the year.  No one is skiing mid-week.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 10, 2017)

Ski patrol also spent all day Saturday clearing tree limbs on CR. Would have been a real big waste of time if that was the last weekend of operations. I could see the lift closing for the season to save costs but the trails remaining open for hiking. The hike over from Paradise isn't too much trouble anyways.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 10, 2017)

looks like bush was lovely this weekend. i was down at k and pico. the snow (~7") was heavier than the bush snow looks but the skiing was still quite good.


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## slatham (Apr 11, 2017)

Has anyone heard any more on the status of Castle Rock and North Lynx for the upcoming weekend?


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## bushpilot (Apr 11, 2017)

Don't they close North Lynx at a certain time of the season because of the slide brook bear sanctuary? Could CR close for the same reason?


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2017)

I didn't think North Lynx itself was restricted for the Slide Brook bear habitat, but I suppose it is a possibility.

CR has to be snow (or lack thereof) on the runouts. Just looking at the CR webcam at the bottom of the lift shows snow disappearing fast.

Big difference this year in snow totals at the top vs the bottom...and now in this weather it sure is showing.


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## Sons of Thunder (Apr 11, 2017)

Worth hitting the Bush after Easter? Thinking of driving up on Sunday and staying a couple nights. The thing that has me really worried is my daughter recently switched from skis to snowboard so greens have to be in play..am I out of luck?


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2017)

I can give you a report Friday/Saturday after I see firsthand what it looks like. I wouldn't at all be surprised though if the Gatehouse side ends up closing this weekend. Usually by mid-April they are down to just Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate lifts if possible. That would leave no greens in that case.

If it wasn't for needing greens, I'd say it would have most likely been worth it.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 12, 2017)

Sons of Thunder said:


> Worth hitting the Bush after Easter? Thinking of driving up on Sunday and staying a couple nights. The thing that has me really worried is my daughter recently switched from skis to snowboard so greens have to be in play..am I out of luck?


While Jester and Downspout are both Blues, they are definitely manageable even for a beginner. It's certainly guaranteed that as long as the lifts are running, both those trails will be operational. Those are long and varied enough to keep someone occupied all day long. 

But yeah Gate House would be the ideal spot to ride if that manages to stay open, but it would be doubtful depending on how much warm weather and rain comes in the next couple of weeks.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 12, 2017)

I also thought about Jester.  Should be a rated a green, but it does keep "true beginners" off of it rated blue since lower has some many trail crossings and intersections.

Nice things about Jester>Downspout is an intermediate and an advanced person can lap the lift.  My wife and I do it all the time.

Downspout can be challenging though, as it is definitely a "high intermediate" run.  When its cowded they don't call it "deathspout" without good reason.


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2017)

I disagree that Jester should be green. It is a legitimate Blue in my opinion. The switchbacks have decent pitch to them and as the day goes on they can get interesting depending on snow conditions and would be fairly challenging for a beginner.

Also keep in mind that in the spring, things bump up quickly which could easily add more challenge for a beginner.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 12, 2017)

From today's snow report :" Spring skiing conditions are variable and challenging. Stay in-control and aware of sudden water bars, soft snow patches, and open water "


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## Jcb890 (Apr 12, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> From today's snow report :" Spring skiing conditions are variable and challenging. Stay in-control and aware of sudden water bars, soft snow patches, and open water "


Oh man, that sounds interesting to say the least!


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 12, 2017)

Watching the Gatehouse cam the last few days the loading area has been a giant slush puddle.Looks like its taking it hard.This morning looks like it has been repaired pretty good.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 12, 2017)

"Expect some natural trails at lower elevations to close throughout the day today after patrol assesses terrain this morning. "


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> "Expect some natural trails at lower elevations to close throughout the day today after patrol assesses terrain this morning. "



And looking at the trail report it looks like most (maybe even all) lower elevation natural trails are now closed. Mall, Twist, Moonshine, Lower Birdland, Domino, etc are all now closed.


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## tumbler (Apr 12, 2017)

It is mid April after all, pretty good coverage for this time of year.


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## Hawk (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm with Tumbler.  All things considered we are at a pretty good place here at Sugarbush for this time of year.  This weekend should be pretty fun with most of the terrain open at HG.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I disagree that Jester should be green. It is a legitimate Blue in my opinion. The switchbacks have decent pitch to them and as the day goes on they can get interesting depending on snow conditions and would be fairly challenging for a beginner.
> 
> Also keep in mind that in the spring, things bump up quickly which could easily add more challenge for a beginner.


Definitely agree that the blue rating is appropriate. But both are still good beginner trails, especially for a snowboarder with skiing experience. You can go straight down it and not get into trouble so making any attempt at controlling speed should be easy on there. Plus its more so the grooming and reliable snow quality that really makes it doable. 

I would definitely want to recommend the Blues over at Mt Ellen ahead of Jester/Downspout but obviously thats not relevant until next season.


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## dlague (Apr 13, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Definitely agree that the blue rating is appropriate. But both are still good beginner trails, especially for a snowboarder with skiing experience. You can go straight down it and not get into trouble so making any attempt at controlling speed should be easy on there. Plus its more so the grooming and reliable snow quality that really makes it doable.
> 
> I would definitely want to recommend the Blues over at Mt Ellen ahead of Jester/Downspout but obviously thats not relevant until next season.



With the switchbacks that can get scraped off quickly, a beginner might be challenged.  Also more experienced skiers like to fly through those turns which a beginner might also be concerned with.  I think it is also ok for beginners though as long as they are aware of faster skiers and boarders.


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## ceo (Apr 13, 2017)

I found Jester not particularly challenging when I was 5 and definitely a beginner. It was a green at the time.


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## CoolMike (Apr 13, 2017)

Making Jester a green would just make the crowding on the top of Organ grinder even worse.  Some days the number of people hiking across that traverse is unreal.


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## Hawk (Apr 13, 2017)

They will never make upper Jester a Green.  It is not a green.  It's a blue and for good reason.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 13, 2017)

Has anyone laid eyes on Mt. Ellen the last couple of days? I was thinking of doing some skinning up tomorrow evening or on Sunday -- how far up would I have to walk until I could put my skis on?


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## Plowboy (Apr 14, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Has anyone laid eyes on Mt. Ellen the last couple of days? I was thinking of doing some skinning up tomorrow evening or on Sunday -- how far up would I have to walk until I could put my skis on?




Zero....All snow to the parking lot.


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## Los (Apr 14, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I am not sure of your experience is with Kids groups but I think that Sugarbush it a little different that other places.  They stress more of a Free skiing itinerary and based on the group and conditions, they may spend most of the time skiing trees and advanced terrain.  The kids love it.  And as stated before, the turn over in the older groups for instructors is low and the Mountaineering Blazers coaches, Diggity, Rick and Waitie have been at SB for over 20 years.



Thanks Hawk - and sorry for not thanking you much, much earlier. Many thanks to Smac75 as well. I went ahead and "pulled the trigger" (as people around here like to say) on season passes and the blazers program. Your feedback will help set my expectations, which I really appreciate. I'm glad to hear they spend alot of time in the woods - that's what my kids like best. I just hope next year isn't a repeat of 2015-2016! 

Thanks again.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2017)

Great spring day today. Amazing how much snow has been lost since last week though.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 14, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Great spring day today. Amazing how much snow has been lost since last week though.



I know I shouldn't be, but every year I am surprised about how quickly the snowpack goes in April. 

I just got back from Snowbird, so I had been obsessively studying their snow data for a while before the trip, and it seems like they can go weeks with days in the 50's or above and not lose that much. I mean, I guess even if they lost 30 inches most people would hardly notice, where as for us that's the difference between lots of snow and bare ground, but I feel like they don't lose nearly that much snow that quickly. I guess that snow is such a good insulator that the more of it you have, the slower it melts proportionally.


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## machski (Apr 14, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I know I shouldn't be, but every year I am surprised about how quickly the snowpack goes in April.
> 
> I just got back from Snowbird, so I had been obsessively studying their snow data for a while before the trip, and it seems like they can go weeks with days in the 50's or above and not lose that much. I mean, I guess even if they lost 30 inches most people would hardly notice, where as for us that's the difference between lots of snow and bare ground, but I feel like they don't lose nearly that much snow that quickly. I guess that snow is such a good insulator that the more of it you have, the slower it melts proportionally.


The air is thinner at altitude as well so fewer air molecules to transfer that heat to the snowpack out west.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 15, 2017)

Altitude and the overnight freeze are key to snowpack survival. They consistently get Temps below freezing at night, even with the warm daytime Temps. At lower (relative) altitudes on the East Coast, it often stays too warm at night for everything to set up for the next day. This is especially true in the later Spring time period.


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## Hawk (Apr 15, 2017)

What is up with the Skimrv site.  I get a database message when I try to go to a topic.  Is anyone else seeing this?


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## benski (Apr 15, 2017)

Hawk said:


> What is up with the Skimrv site.  I get a database message when I try to go to a topic.  Is anyone else seeing this?



Yes. Just noticed it.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2017)

Hawk said:


> What is up with the Skimrv site.  I get a database message when I try to go to a topic.  Is anyone else seeing this?



Just checked...same here...


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## shadyjay (Apr 15, 2017)

Snowpack has taken a hit this week, not just on the natural trails but on the snowmaking ones as well, especially on the Gate House side.  High sun angle, temps in the 70s during the day and 50s at night, skier traffic, and some r@!n are all contributing factors.  These factors are also decimating our ramps, require rebuilding each morning, sometimes from bare wood.  Gate House trails like Hot Shot/Waterfall and North Lynx are in the sun all day and have been getting hit hard.  Sleeper is a little more protected/shaded and was riding nice today with very good coverage (except the runout).  Heaven's Gate trails are still holding up quite well.  How long the runout will survive will dictate its longevity.  Stein's, SB and Fling are still excellent.  Lower SB only passable on the left side about halfway down.  Downspout is still descent as is Middle Jester.  Portions of Lower OG between the jugs are bare.  I look at these trails and think, "yup, could've made more snow here", but then I realize it was almost 80 the other day and that our spring routes are still holding up well.

And yup, SKIMRV down here too.  In fact, I was unable to get onto the site the date the last message was posted.

Since SKIMRV is down, here's a status report on Roxbury Gap...







That is all.


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## 180 (Apr 15, 2017)

thanks


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2017)

To add a little more to what shady said...on Heaven's Gate Organgrinder seems quite deep. Ripcord on the other hand has a number of rocks/thin spots starting to develop (probably why they've been choosing to groom OG vs Ripcord the past couple days). Paradise could very well be done after this weekend. The headwall is losing coverage quickly and you had to pick your way down that part. After that it had pretty good coverage though until Lower Paradise. Spillsville still had very good cover the past 2 days.

I think shady covered everything else pretty well.


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## slatham (Apr 16, 2017)

Lower Downspout run out was getting very thin yesterday and after rain last night and warmth today could be toast very soon. Wonder if they would open Heavens Gate and direct skiers retuning to the base to take Jester to Valley House Traverse? The top will be skiable for a while yet.

I am looking at Gate House right now and I am very surprised it's open. I understand they really need Pushover, but they claim Waterfall and Hot Shot are open and it's not even good "patch" skiing! I can also see Paradise and it too looks done or just about....

Great 3 day run of Blue Bird spring skiing to end the season. Glad I finally made it to the 'Bush this year!


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2017)

slatham said:


> Lower Downspout run out was getting very thin yesterday and after rain last night and warmth today could be toast very soon. Wonder if they would open Heavens Gate and direct skiers retuning to the base to take Jester to Valley House Traverse? The top will be skiable for a while yet.



I hope they do. I think they've done that in the past a couple times. And I know in early season they do downloading on Super Bravo when only the top has snow...so this is basically the same thing if Lower DS runs out of snow. The other question though is how long Jester itself lasts. Once you lose that, then you lose that option. I didn't notice any thin spots yet when I skied it on Friday (didn't ski it yesterday), but I do know it can start to lose snow quickly in some spots.

Looks like Paradise is now officially closed, which isn't surprising.

Still hoping for one or two more weekends up there if the snow holds up!


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## benski (Apr 16, 2017)

slatham said:


> I am looking at Gate House right now and I am very surprised it's open. I understand they really need Pushover, but they claim Waterfall and Hot Shot are open and it's not even good "patch" skiing! I can also see Paradise and it too looks done or just about....



They are now reporting waterfall and lower hotshot as closed.


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## slatham (Apr 16, 2017)

benski said:


> They are now reporting waterfall and lower hotshot as closed.



I think I witnessed the last run of the season on Waterfall and Hot Shot - a snowboarder that became a "Grassboard" in several sections.

70 at the base and sunny. You can see it melting away.....


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## WWF-VT (Apr 16, 2017)

I skied on Saturday and Sunday and the warm temps and rain late Saturday has taken a toll on the snow pack.  There’s not much time left (if any)  for the Heavens Gate chair.  Downspout has a major gap developing that requires finding your way around about mid way down as well as significant snow lost below the Slow sign near the bottom.    Jester is also getting very thin in many places.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 17, 2017)

I dont know what this mans but I viewed all the cams earlier this morning around 8 am.Now the Castlerock,HG,and Gatehouse cams are not even shown.There was virtually no snow left at the Gatehouse loading area as well as CR which is understandable there.The HG loading area looked thin but managable.Today they are only running the Valley House because of "conditions".Whatever that means.They just rebuilt the loading areas with new snow at the base area.


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## cdskier (Apr 17, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> I dont know what this mans but I viewed all the cams earlier this morning around 8 am.Now the Castlerock,HG,and Gatehouse cams are not even shown.There was virtually no snow left at the Gatehouse loading area as well as CR which is understandable there.The HG loading area looked thin but managable.Today they are only running the Valley House because of "conditions".Whatever that means.They just rebuilt the loading areas with new snow at the base area.



I thought that was odd as well with the other cams disappearing. Actually, GH and CR being taken off didn't surprise me as that is standard once the lift is closed for the season. HG though based on the snow report this morning it seemed was just being closed temporarily today, but only time will tell on that I guess. Have to see what the afternoon report says for tomorrow. Even if they can open it tomorrow, the weather forecast this week doesn't give me much hope that it would last until the weekend unless they can move some snow around from somewhere.

Their open trails also seems a bit odd. They say they have 10 open trails. What's the point of VH traverse being listed as open though if the VH chair is the one running instead of Super Bravo? You'd only need VHT if you're going from Bravo to the VH side. I don't think people are going to go uphill on the traverse from the VH quad over to Allyn's lodge. The trail report also shows Heaven's Gate Traverse as being open. That has to be a mistake as no trails on either end of it are open today. To me it looks like they should have 8 trails open, not 10. This might be picky, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 17, 2017)

Will need to move a lot of snow to get Downspout  open to get you down to the HG chair


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## cdskier (Apr 17, 2017)

I guess they must think they can get DS skiable and HG open at least for tomorrow. I still have doubts about it lasting until the weekend when I get back. I'm hoping something on HG lasts until at least Saturday though as it would be nice to ski more than Spring Fling and Steins this weekend.

Here's the latest from the afternoon snow report:


> Rain overnight and a week of prime spring skiing left much of the mid-mountain terrain needing a day of patch work. Hopes are high for trail count to rise tomorrow back to 19 trails, served by 2 lifts. The groomers plan to smooth out Spring Fling, Snowball, Downspout and Valley House Traverse.


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## dlague (Apr 17, 2017)

Based on reported base depths, they should hang it up.  Stowe, Jay and Killington all reporting deeper bases.


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## Jully (Apr 17, 2017)

dlague said:


> Based on reported base depths, they should hang it up.  Stowe, Jay and Killington all reporting deeper bases.



How much can self reported base depths be trusted though? I hardly ever look at those early season because they always seem meaningless. I'd assume it would be the same late season.


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## cdskier (Apr 17, 2017)

Jully said:


> How much can self reported base depths be trusted though? I hardly ever look at those early season because they always seem meaningless. I'd assume it would be the same late season.



Agreed. Trails like Steins and Spring Fling had plenty of depth left. Saying they should hang it up based on reported base depths is kind of a dumb comment imo. I have doubts that Stowe has a minimum of 30" on all their snowmaking trails as their reported base depth indicates.

As long as the trails are skiable, stay open. Thin cover and bare spots don't bother me and I'd rather ski those conditions than nothing at all.


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## shadyjay (Apr 17, 2017)

On my last run down Downspout Sunday afternoon, it was definitely a challenge trying to make your way down it.  But the groomers are working their magic and with temps expected in the 30s tonight at elevation, it will be easier to make something happen.  When temps are in the 50s at night, you're doing more damage than good if you put a cat on it.  We did get ramps built today at bottom of Bravo and bottom of Heaven's Gate, which hopefully will make it through the night.  Then we just have to build top of Bravo and top of HG in the am... an easier-said-than-done process, but we did it in good time Sunday morning and got open for the sunrise service.  From what I saw on Sunday afternoon, I really doubt Lower DS/Lower Jester will be skiable, but we will see in the AM.  If its not, expect to "upload" to get out of HG, with the Jester->VHT->SB/Fling or Steins to get you back to the base.  

Still really good coverage on Spring Fling and Stein's and [most of] Upper Snowball.  Even the rock garden bypass was groomed and well covered!


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## dlague (Apr 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Agreed. Trails like Steins and Spring Fling had plenty of depth left. Saying they should hang it up based on reported base depths is kind of a dumb comment imo. I have doubts that Stowe has a minimum of 30" on all their snowmaking trails as their reported base depth indicates.
> 
> As long as the trails are skiable, stay open. Thin cover and bare spots don't bother me and I'd rather ski those conditions than nothing at all.



It is generally not the trails themselves but the run outs to the chair that get thin fast.  I have skied Steins on May 1st but the run out was barely ski able.  The were pushing snow from Steins to keep it open.

I can only speculate base on what people are reporting.  With a base of 4 inches where ever that is, things are not lasting much longer.  Especially with this on the way



Hang it up this is now Killington season!  Is that not so dumb now?


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## cdskier (Apr 17, 2017)

The 4" is on the trails that were already talked about as being thin, which to be fair are not considered their core spring trails. The runout from Stein's (Coffee Run) had plenty of depth left. I get a little annoyed when people that haven't seen something first hand make comments like that without complete information. That forecast is why I have my doubts about the Heaven's Gate area making it to the weekend (and I made this point in one of my earlier posts). That forecast doesn't have me concerned for the Stein's/Spring Fling trails though. Would I prefer the forecast was different? Of course...but it isn't going to make me say Sugarbush should just give up. As long as Stein's and Spring Fling are skiable, then SB should stay committed to their current operating plan (and knowing Win, that's exactly what he'll do).


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## Hawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Yes it is dumb to hang it up.  There are a ton of people mostly season pass holders like myself and cdskier that ski until the end and I have even skied past the end on some years by hiking or skinning.  As a pass holder these are the days that finish the season and make it great.  All of the tourists and fair weather skier are gone and it is the same die hard people that we ski with every year.  They are not going to shut it down because there are a few thin spots.  Killington season it May and June not now.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2017)

dlague said:


> It is generally not the trails themselves but the run outs to the chair that get thin fast.  I have skied Steins on May 1st but the run out was barely ski able.  The were pushing snow from Steins to keep it open.
> 
> I can only speculate base on what people are reporting.  With a base of 4 inches where ever that is, things are not lasting much longer.  Especially with this on the way
> 
> ...


Yes, still dumb. 

That's for the mountain and skiers showing up to decide.  

Some SB skiers will move on to Killington. Others will not for a variety of reasons.  

If Win wants to go for it as long as he can to please his regular diehards, then good on him.  

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 18, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Yes it is dumb to hang it up.  There are a ton of people mostly season pass holders like myself and cdskier that ski until the end and I have even skied past the end on some years by hiking or skinning.  As a pass holder these are the days that finish the season and make it great.  All of the tourists and fair weather skier are gone and it is the same die hard people that we ski with every year.  They are not going to shut it down because there are a few thin spots.  Killington season it May and June not now.


Preach! I would 100% be skiing at the Bush this coming weekend if I wasnt already heading to California. Totally worth the drive up just to lap Steins a hundred times. But I was also totally happy with the 9th being my last day. Lincoln peak was still 100% open and the trees were fully in play with fresh powder. Crazy how fast things went downhill but it would still be plenty of fun either way.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't mean to rub it in or rustle any feathers, but Saturday at Killington was probably some of the best real "Spring" riding I have done.  Middle of April with highs hitting almost 60 and a lot of open terrain still, all with really good coverage.  Small crowds too to boot, my wife and I rode the gondola up by ourselves a few times.

I really appreciate it when the mountains give it that extra push this time of year when I'm not ready to let go of the season.


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## cdskier (Apr 18, 2017)

Well I was a little worried I was being too hard by calling that statement "dumb", but glad to see other people like Hawk backed me up.

Anyway, here are some pictures from this past Friday:
View attachment 22494
View attachment 22495

And a few from Saturday:
View attachment 22497
View attachment 22498


Looking forward to getting back up there this weekend even if it is only a few trails.


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## dlague (Apr 18, 2017)

Hey I am all about staying open as long as possible and I have skied Sugarbush into May.  I was not trying to piss in any ones Cheerios.  I was only looking at what people have been reporting which when reading it does not sound that great.  Then looking at base depths and the rain coming - I almost hate to see a last minute plug pull.  As long as  Stein's and Coffee Run have enough snow then Sugarbush should definitely go for it.  Maybe they could do the May 1st free day again.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 18, 2017)

The groomers smoothed Spring Fling, Snowball, Downspout and Valley House Traverse.I guess DS made it through.


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## tumbler (Apr 18, 2017)

Most of the cameras work on the app.


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## shadyjay (Apr 18, 2017)

Was pleasantly surprised today.... the patch job on Downspout wasn't bad at all.  What was kinda sketchy were the group of skiers going mach 10 behind me through some of the narrower spots.  Jester was nice as well, and it was just firm enough in the shade to keep my board going all the way from Jester to SB via VHT.  Murphys and Birdland (barely) are still open as is Lower OG.  That's your only route to the base from looker's right off Bravo.  To get out of Heaven's Gate, you must go up and down either Lower OG or over to the Valley House side.  

We'll see how long DS and Heaven's Gate last.  At least the blowtorch isn't present like last week, but that warm April sun plus liquid precip is just as bad.  We will see some nights this week when the snow "sets up" at night, so that'll help.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 19, 2017)

Heaven's Gate won't be in the mix for much longer, so head to the top for some of the final summit runs of the season.


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## tumbler (Apr 19, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Heaven's Gate won't be in the mix for much longer, so head to the top for some of the final summit runs of the season.



They keep alluding to that on the snow report.  Hopefully it can make it through the weekend.


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## cdskier (Apr 19, 2017)

tumbler said:


> They keep alluding to that on the snow report.  Hopefully it can make it through the weekend.



Hope so as well, but I'm not holding my breath with the weather forecast. If it doesn't make it, guess I'll be lapping Stein's and Spring Fling. I was debating whether to do the Stein's Challenge again but am leaning towards skipping it this year and just having the freedom to ski whatever (not that I'll have many choices). It was fun last year though just as a personal test to see how long I could last on nothing but Stein's.


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## phin (Apr 20, 2017)

How many laps did you end up doing during last years steins challenge?  How many people ended up entering?

I couldn't swing last years challenge, but I'm going to give it go this weekend.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2017)

I did 16, which was well below the top finishers, but I was happy with it. I took a break in the middle for a slice of pizza at the base of Stein's too lol.

The top finisher had 25.

Last year we had maybe about 50 people enter. Some only did a few runs though.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 20, 2017)

I am assuming Steins is a well-known bump-run at Sugarbush?  That sounds like a fun challenge.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2017)

Yea, it has become their signature spring trail that they blow a ton of snow on. It is a fairly steep, wide, double-fall line trail. Last year they groomed it a couple days before the event so it wasn't terribly bumped up at the start, but as the day went on the bumps grew.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yea, it has become their signature spring trail that they blow a ton of snow on. It is a fairly steep, wide, double-fall line trail. Last year they groomed it a couple days before the event so it wasn't terribly bumped up at the start, but as the day went on the bumps grew.


I'd be interested in lapping it if it starts off groomed.  But, I don't have a 'Bush pass... bummer.


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2017)

They groomed it last weekend


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## phin (Apr 20, 2017)

Just noticed in todays snow report that Brooks Curran (IG legend) won last years event with 28 laps.  That's 7 laps/hr --> ~8.5 minutes per lap, including the ride up the VH quad.  

Is my math wrong here?  How is that even possible?


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## jaytrem (Apr 20, 2017)

If you start at the top that's only 27 lift rides needed.  They have a loading carpet so figure absolute minimum of 7 minutes per ride.  That leaves 51 minute of ski time and you probably just need to start your last run before the time runs out.  So you get about 1.88 minutes per run.  Seems reasonable, just need pretty much zero lift stops.


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## Smellytele (Apr 20, 2017)

jaytrem said:


> If you start at the top that's only 27 lift rides needed.  They have a loading carpet so figure absolute minimum of 7 minutes per ride.  That leaves 51 minute of ski time and you probably just need to start your last run before the time runs out.  So you get about 1.88 minutes per run.  Seems reasonable, just need pretty much zero lift stops.



And wear depends...


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2017)

Your math is correct Phin but something seems off.  I don't think you can do an 8:30 minute lap on the VH quad.  I think it is to slow.  You also have to check into the table each lap and you have the slow coffee run traverse.  you also have to do this non-stop with no slowing down for 4 hours.  And the lift can not stop for very long.  I don't know, interesting problem.  We will see.  I will time it this weekend.  


phin said:


> Just noticed in todays snow report that Brooks Curran (IG legend) won last years event with 28 laps.  That's 7 laps/hr


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2017)

FYI - They have it on liftblog at 7:50 for ride time on that lift so that would leave about 45 seconds for ski time with no delays every time.  I don't know.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 20, 2017)

My son is doing the Steins challenge this weekend and last week he timed himself at about 11 minutes per lap.  The trail was pretty well bumped up when he skied it on Sunday and there was only about a ten foot wide exit at the bottom.


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## jaytrem (Apr 20, 2017)

Was it a 4 hour race last year?  If it was 5, 28 would seem more reasonable.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2017)

phin said:


> Just noticed in todays snow report that Brooks Curran (IG legend) won last years event with 28 laps.  That's 7 laps/hr --> ~8.5 minutes per lap, including the ride up the VH quad.
> 
> Is my math wrong here?  How is that even possible?



28 is wrong. Not sure why they listed that. He had 25. I checked the photo on my iPhone of the results sheet from last year.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2017)

And yes, it was 4 hours last year. I believe Brooks (and some others) were using the Bravo chair and flying down the VH Traverse to save a minute or two off of the VH chair ride. I guess if you can get enough speed on the traverse it works out. Brooks and a few others were absolutely flying down Steins last year. It was quite impressive.


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## benski (Apr 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> And yes, it was 4 hours last year. I believe Brooks (and some others) were using the Bravo chair and flying down the VH Traverse to save a minute or two off of the VH chair ride. I guess if you can get enough speed on the traverse it works out. Brooks and a few others were absolutely flying down Steins last year. It was quite impressive.



I doubt that saves you time unless you have crazy stamina since you sit less, have no foot rests and longer runs. I times it last year and you probably have to skate the traverse to make to save more than a few seconds.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2017)

benski said:


> I doubt that saves you time unless you have crazy stamina since you sit less, have no foot rests and longer runs. I times it last year and you probably have to skate the traverse to make to save more than a few seconds.



I have my doubts as well, but I know people were doing it and claiming it was saving them time. I stuck to the VH chair the whole time as I didn't want to add any additional skiing that I didn't have to.


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## teleo (Apr 20, 2017)

Always wondered, but timing is very close. Last week a I saw a friend getting on Bravo as I was heading into VH.  He was skiing into stiens as I was getting off VH.  Didn't compare lift stops or how fast he skied, but it's that close.  With soft snow, might have to expend energy on the traverse to gain time.  Works for the young ones.  I'd  need an old farts Tele class to compete.



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## Hawk (Apr 21, 2017)

benski said:


> I doubt that saves you time unless you have crazy stamina since you sit less, have no foot rests and longer runs. I times it last year and you probably have to skate the traverse to make to save more than a few seconds.



No it does save you time unless the traverse is really sticky.  You also have to understand Brooks.  Stamina and Strength is not an issue with him.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 21, 2017)

Damn, for $20 I kind of want to represent for the snowboarders... but I think I'm helping my brother move tomorrow.  Bummer.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 21, 2017)

If liftblog is correct and all things being equal as far the lifts never stopping,the Super Bravo chair is 2 miutes faster.Have not been there for 10 years but iirc I would think its no more than 1 minute to do that traverse.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> If liftblog is correct and all things being equal as far the lifts never stopping,the Super Bravo chair is 2 miutes faster.Have not been there for 10 years but iirc I would think its no more than 1 minute to do that traverse.



That's a long traverse. Longer than a minute.


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## cdskier (Apr 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That's a long traverse. Longer than a minute.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I think it can be done in a minute under the right conditions. I timed myself this morning and it took me 1:45 to get from the top of bravo across the vht. Conditions were slow today though and I'm sure people could beat my time even today with fresh spring wax and more speed.

Not a particularly nice day for the event today though. Lots of low clouds impacting visibility at times and even a bit of a shower at times. I heard they only had 24 participants. 

On a positive note, I thought skiing this morning was quite nice. Glad they were able to keep heavens gate open as organgrinder still has deep snow. I was lapping that for a while. Og might last longer than anything else for those willing to hike once hg closes.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think it can be done in a minute under the right conditions. I timed myself this morning and it took me 1:45 to get from the top of bravo across the vht. Conditions were slow today though and I'm sure people could beat my time even today with fresh spring wax and more speed.
> 
> Not a particularly nice day for the event today though. Lots of low clouds impacting visibility at times and even a bit of a shower at times. I heard they only had 24 participants.
> 
> ...



Yeah if it is firm and fast and there's no traffic you just cruise along.  I always remember it being busy. 


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## WWF-VT (Apr 23, 2017)

Competitors were restricted to using the Valley House chair for the competition and my son completed 22 laps and finished 3rd


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## cdskier (Apr 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Competitors were restricted to using the Valley House chair for the competition and my son completed 22 laps and finished 3rd



I thought it looked like they were requiring use of the vh chair. Good decision to make everything equal. 22 is impressive under the conditions. It seemed much bumpier than I remember it being last year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

So are they done or pretty close to it?  


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## tumbler (Apr 23, 2017)

Done with daily operations. Opening next weeeknd then done


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## cdskier (Apr 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So are they done or pretty close to it?



Closed mid-week, but goal is to re-open for next Saturday-Monday to make it to May. Even if the weather cooperates, I would expect they will still need to move some snow around. The very bottom of Stein's was only about 15 feet wide in one spot. Most of Steins has decent depth though and the Coffee Run runout is deep as well. Spring Fling has good depth too, but Snowball will probably require moving some snow around if they can manage to keep it open. I'd expect that would be all that's left next weekend and that they will run only the VH Quad. OG on HG could easily last, but Jester and Downspout won't so it doesn't matter how much snow OG has left. Lower Snowball/Racers Edge, Birdland, Murphy's and part of Lower OG were also open this weekend, but I'd be surprised if any of them make it to next weekend.


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## mikec142 (Apr 24, 2017)

I know this is probably a stupid question, I'm assuming that people hike to the top of Lincoln Peak in the Summer.  What's the main route up?  I've spent plenty of time at SB in the winter, but never in the summer and would like to get up to VT this summer for a change.


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## mikec142 (Apr 24, 2017)

Can't figure out how to edit my post above.  Would love to get a summer version of the pictures I have from the top of Heaven's Gate looking west over the valley.  Same goes for the view at Mount Ellen from Panorama.  Can you hike up that high?  Does HG or the Summit lift run in the summer?


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## cdskier (Apr 24, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> I know this is probably a stupid question, I'm assuming that people hike to the top of Lincoln Peak in the Summer.  What's the main route up?  I've spent plenty of time at SB in the winter, but never in the summer and would like to get up to VT this summer for a change.



They sure do. I've been to the summit several times in the summer.

It depends where you're starting from. If you want to hike from the base, you can use the Racer's Edge->Snowball->Jester route shown on this map: http://www.sugarbush.com/uploaded/maps/SUG_MAP_SUM16_map_only-lores.jpg

You can also "cheat" a bit and take the Super Bravo lift up and then hike up Jester from there to the top of Lincoln Peak. Still a pretty good hike and workout. Jester itself is quite steep in the S-turns.

You can also park at the Lincoln Gap and hike the Long Trail from the Lincoln Gap to Mt Abraham to Lincoln Peak.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 24, 2017)

I second the Long Trail idea. For some reason I find hiking at ski areas to be not that fun or scenic (in the summer). There's also a great (if somewhat steep) trail from the western side, the Battell Trail, that leaves from Lincoln. The LT option probably has the least vertical climb.


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## mikec142 (Apr 24, 2017)

To be frank.  I'm not much of a hiker.  When ski season ends, my family and I are usually thinking about the beach.  However, we do have family in Burlington and a close friend who works at the Hermitage.  Additionally, I know that we need to be in upstate NY to visit our kids at summer camp and to pick them up so my wife and I were thinking about getting up to VT this summer. So maybe, I could become a hiker.


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## cdskier (Apr 24, 2017)

I enjoy hiking the Long Trail and also find that more fun than hiking the ski trails themselves, although hiking the ski trails does give you a unique perspective on how much steeper they seem hiking vs skiing down them. Mt Abraham is cool because the summit is above the tree line and has that unique alpine vegetation. Hiking over to Castlerock along the LT from the top of Lincoln Peak is also fun. Great views along the way.

I wonder how much damage there is on the LT at the moment from the last snow storm that had some significant icing at the summits a couple weeks ago. I know at the top of Paradise at the entrance to the woods to the LT there was a broken tree across the trail as of a little over a week ago. No idea how the LT itself made out during that storm.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 24, 2017)

I have done the Lincoln Gap hike several times.  Great views from the top of Mt Abraham and it's a quick trip from there to Lincoln Peak.

http://4000footers.com/abraham.shtml

Another good hike is to go up Troll Road to Castlerock Run and take the LT from Castlerock Peak to Lincoln Peak.


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## cdskier (Apr 24, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> I have done the Lincoln Gap hike several times.  Great views from the top of Mt Abraham and it's a quick trip from there to Lincoln Peak.
> 
> http://4000footers.com/abraham.shtml
> 
> Another good hike is to go up Troll Road to Castlerock Run and take the LT from Castlerock Peak to Lincoln Peak.



I wanted to try to find that plane crash last year when I was up on Mt Abraham but didn't have any luck. I was by myself at the time though, so didn't really want to stray too far from the LT itself. It was also quite chilly at the summit that day (temp was 40 at the Battell Shelter and lower at the summit I'm sure). And this was in June! (day before Brew Fest).

One time I hiked down CR Run and Troll Road after hiking over to CR from LP. I never hiked up it though. One day I'd like to go from LP across to Mt Ellen. According to the hiking map I have, it is only 1.6 miles from CR to ME. I would have expected it to be longer since it is almost that far from LP to CR.


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## shadyjay (Apr 24, 2017)

It's a relatively easy hike from the top of Lincoln Peak to Mt Ellen.  You're basically on the ridge the whole time and at most times, you can see both sides of the ridge from the trail.  There are some ups-and-downs but nothing too strenuous.  The most strenuous part is getting to the ridge, whether that be up Mt Abe from the south, up Jester, etc.  

Jester is pretty steep when you're hiking up it and there's no snow.  I've hiked down CR and Middle Earth a few times and its very steep.  Middle Earth wasn't mowed at the time, and CR is a very steep gravely work road from the warming hut down to Hi-Lo Road.


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## cdskier (Apr 24, 2017)

I wanted to hike to ME from LP last August when I was up there, but the weather was quite ominous and iffy that day. I went as far as the Church before deciding I didn't want to get caught up there in a storm and turned around and headed back to the LP base. The only other people I saw hiking that day were a mother and her kids that were hiking over to CR to spread some ashes apparently. Usually I run into a lot more people hiking around SB and the lack of others being around was a bit eerie. Hopefully this summer I can get a chance to do it. I've never been to the summit of ME during non-winter.


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## shadyjay (Apr 25, 2017)

If you approach Mt Ellen from the south via the LT (from Lincoln Peak), the actual true summit is a small cairn in the woods at the "height of land".  You drop down a short bit and then pop out into the open at the top of summit.  There used to be a small wooden LT-style sign that announced the summit, but it grew legs.  :-(


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2017)

Steins is currently hanging on by a thread in a couple spots. Spring fling still is well covered and the groomers did a great job keeping a path open on snowball. Probably good that it is 20 degrees cooler than yesterday today with not much sun to help them make it to tomorrow.


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## hrstrat57 (Apr 30, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Steins is currently hanging on by a thread in a couple spots. Spring fling still is well covered and the groomers did a great job keeping a path open on snowball. Probably good that it is 20 degrees cooler than yesterday today with not much sun to help them make it to tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Hard to believe they could keep Snowball open after yesterday, that sure is super impressive!

Any linky to pics or comments from anybody that has/is actually skiing it?


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2017)

hrstrat57 said:


> Hard to believe they could keep Snowball open after yesterday, that sure is super impressive!
> 
> Any linky to pics or comments from anybody that has/is actually skiing it?



I only took a couple pics from my iPhone. I took more with my regular camera, but can't download them until tomorrow when I go home.






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## Jully (Apr 30, 2017)

Doesn't look bad at all!


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2017)

Jully said:


> Doesn't look bad at all!



Yea, spring fling was definitely still in great shape. Still continues to amaze me how much snow disappears on a daily basis this time of year.


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## hrstrat57 (Apr 30, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I only took a couple pics from my iPhone. I took more with my regular camera, but can't download them until tomorrow when I go home.
> 
> View attachment 22549
> View attachment 22550
> ...



impressive!! Post more!


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## WWF-VT (May 1, 2017)

Spring Fling was good but Steins was loud yesterday


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## Hawk (May 1, 2017)

So now that my season is over I have to say that the last month and a half changed my opinion of the season.  Over all I would give the season a solid B rating.  I skied a lot, skied the woods and slide brook a lot, the lifts seemed to run OK and they did make it to May 1st.  There was a good section of total suck mid year but that sometimes is what we get here in New England.  Another year in the books for me at Sugarbush and now I can concentrate on MTB and Road biking.  Some trail maintenance also.  ;-)


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## cdskier (May 1, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Spring Fling was good but Steins was loud yesterday



Sure was. I skied it once and decided that was enough. Stuck to spring fling the rest of the time. On Saturday steins was pretty nice though.

Today my plan is 1 or 2 runs on spring fling and then I can head back to nj satisfied.


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## Los (May 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sure was. I skied it once and decided that was enough. Stuck to spring fling the rest of the time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Me too!! But my 10 year old lapped it twice more by himself, including his last run of the season. 

Here are a couple pics I took yesterday. It was a bit gloomy...
steins:


Spring fling:


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## dlague (May 1, 2017)

Seems like thus the other day there was talk on this thread about how much snow was on Stein's and Spring Fling and now the trails are down to dirt dodging.


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## Domeskier (May 1, 2017)

dlague said:


> Seems like thus the other day there was talk on this thread about how much snow was on Stein's and Spring Fling and now the trails are down to dirt dodging.



I fancy myself an amateur physicist and the only explanation I can think of is wormholes.


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## dlague (May 1, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> I fancy myself an amateur physicist and the only explanation I can think of is wormholes.



That has to be it!


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## cdskier (May 1, 2017)

dlague said:


> Seems like thus the other day there was talk on this thread about how much snow was on Stein's and Spring Fling and now the trails are down to dirt dodging.



They did have a lot of snow not too long ago. Not too long ago Jay was also planning on being open until next weekend and possibly longer. Several other resorts were planning on being open until May 1 and didn't make it. Warm weather, sun, and some rain over the past week sure did take a toll on snowpack.

Spring Fling today still had fine cover...no dirt dodging at all. Stein's I didn't ski today, but from what I was able to see of how much snow was lost overnight (it rained pretty hard for a bit last night), I'm sure it did have some dirt dodging in a couple sections, although a good portion of the trail was still nearly edge to edge yesterday. I'll take what we had the past 2 weekends over not skiing at all. Myself and others that were out there had a great time and are all glad they didn't take your earlier advice that they should "hang it up" a couple weeks ago. I know you've said previously your intention isn't to be negative and rain on our parade in the northeast, but you continue to do a good job of coming off that way.


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## dlague (May 1, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They did have a lot of snow not too long ago. Not too long ago Jay was also planning on being open until next weekend and possibly longer. Several other resorts were planning on being open until May 1 and didn't make it. Warm weather, sun, and some rain over the past week sure did take a toll on snowpack.
> 
> Spring Fling today still had fine cover...no dirt dodging at all. Stein's I didn't ski today, but from what I was able to see of how much snow was lost overnight (it rained pretty hard for a bit last night), I'm sure it did have some dirt dodging in a couple sections, although a good portion of the trail was still nearly edge to edge yesterday. I'll take what we had the past 2 weekends over not skiing at all. Myself and others that were out there had a great time and are all glad they didn't take your earlier advice that they should "hang it up" a couple weeks ago. I know you've said previously your intention isn't to be negative and rain on our parade in the northeast, but you continue to do a good job of coming off that way.



no negative intentions, more disbelief.  Seems like the past two weeks, were tough.  I have skied Steins on May 1st as a free day few years back and it was amazing.   Hey they made to May which is good for them.


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## cdskier (May 3, 2017)

Finally got around to getting my pictures from the weekend. Here are a few from Saturday.

Here's Snowball:


Steins:



Spring Fling:


Riding the VH Chair with Stein's in the background:


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## cdskier (May 3, 2017)

And here are a few from Sunday.

Spring Fling:


Stein's at the spot near the top where it was getting thin:




And finally one picture from Spring Fling early Monday:


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## sugarbushskier (May 4, 2017)

Nice, but bittersweet pics!  Only 180ish days to go for next season.  The countdown has begun LOL.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2017)

sugarbushskier said:


> Nice, but bittersweet pics!  Only 180ish days to go for next season.  The countdown has begun LOL.



Hah...yes, only 181 days until snow-making begins!


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## rtjcbrown (May 4, 2017)

Seems like Spring Fling hung in there better than years past, and Stein's not so much.


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## tumbler (May 4, 2017)

They didn't blow as much snow on Stein's as in years past, much less hours of snowmaking.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2017)

I had been saying for quite a while this season that I didn't think Stein's was as deep as it was last year. Of course that was just my perception from skiing it and looking at it and nothing scientific in terms of actual measurements (last year I remember Sugarbush measuring the depth and talking about how deep it was either in their snow report or one of their blog posts...this year if they did that, they never mentioned it anywhere that I recall).

For Spring Fling and Snowball, they did fire the guns back up in March on those trails. I'm inclined to think that certainly helped and if they hadn't done that, we might not have made it to May.


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## mrvpilgrim (May 4, 2017)

If I recall they replaced the pipes on spring fling and snowball if not last year then the year before allowing for more efficient snow production on those trails. Looks like that investment is paying off.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2017)

If you compare this year to the last 5 years I think there is very little difference other than the snow depth on Spring fling.  it is May first and we were skiing Steins and then closing.  That is all one can ask from Sugarbush.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> If you compare this year to the last 5 years I think there is very little difference other than the snow depth on Spring fling.  it is May first and we were skiing Steins and then closing.  That is all one can ask from Sugarbush.



Generally speaking yes, as long as Spring Fling and Stein's can make it to the start of May, that's all we can expect and I'm perfectly happy with that. I do think they cut it a little too close on Stein's this year and the depth on the last weekend sure seemed less than some other recent years that I remember. Is that a factor of the weather this year though? Or did they really make a bit less snow as it seemed? Unless someone measured the depth on Stein's in mid-winter or knows how many hours of snow-making happened this year vs other years on the trail, then I'd say it is tough to say for sure.

I do recall 3 years ago where HG was still running in May and patrol was hand-shoveling lower Ripcord to keep a path down it open. Granted that had a lot more to do with weather than anything else and was an unexpected surprise that year (2014).


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## slatham (May 4, 2017)

mrvpilgrim said:


> If I recall they replaced the pipes on spring fling and snowball if not last year then the year before allowing for more efficient snow production on those trails. Looks like that investment is paying off.



Yes, water pipes. New one's are either 12" or 20". They're pretty big and allowed the full-on assault of high efficiency guns blazing this winter.


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## benski (May 4, 2017)

mrvpilgrim said:


> If I recall they replaced the pipes on spring fling and snowball if not last year then the year before allowing for more efficient snow production on those trails. Looks like that investment is paying off.



I think the main advantage is early season when they can open the trail faster and move on to the next trail quickly. I think i heard with the new pipes the trail opens in 2 days instead of 3.


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## Hawk (May 5, 2017)

The new pipes on Spring Fling are nice.  They replaced both the air and water pipes and are bigger yes and most importantly they don't leak and won't blow out like the rest of the old system.  It does mean that the trail can get covered faster but it also should mean that the trails should have more consistent snow coming out of the guns.  
The biggest thing that slows them down when opening trails and resurfacing is the lack of equipment on hand.  Most snow making outfits have enough hoses and guns on hand to have set ups on most locations on all of their main snow making trails.  Sugarbush does not.  The result is the snow makers have to break down a trail, lug the hoses and some times guns to the next trail, set up and then run and tune the system.  This is why they just blow a trail for many days and then move on and do not go back until it is absolutely necessary.  They are really lucky that the bush gets good natural snow most years or they would be kind of screwed.


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## cdskier (May 5, 2017)

Perhaps snowmaking improvements can be more of a main focus in the future once they finish their other capital expenditures. I know they've done a lot of incremental improvements with replacing some pipes, buying some more guns, etc, but it would be nice to see a major effort at some point for upgrades. I think they need to seriously consider increasing the size of the snowmaking pond. Running out of water earlier this year at times when you had good snow-making temps was not good. They are lucky they ended up getting rain after that to refill the pond.


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## tumbler (May 5, 2017)

I don't think that they are going to invest much in the snowmaking system besides maintaining.  They have their program and they are going to stick with it.  They roll the dice on the natural and it has mostly been working out for them.  They have a lot of towers now, it would be nice to buy more short tower hoses to leave at those locations so they can do quicker switchovers.


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## rtjcbrown (May 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I don't think that they are going to invest much in the snowmaking system besides maintaining.  They have their program and they are going to stick with it.  They roll the dice on the natural and it has mostly been working out for them.  They have a lot of towers now, it would be nice to buy more short tower hoses to leave at those locations so they can do quicker switchovers.




*I agree. They are already one of the last to close*, *and seem content with the schedule they keep. I think any improvements will be made to be more efficient*


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## benski (May 5, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Perhaps snowmaking improvements can be more of a main focus in the future once they finish their other capital expenditures. I know they've done a lot of incremental improvements with replacing some pipes, buying some more guns, etc, but it would be nice to see a major effort at some point for upgrades. I think they need to seriously consider increasing the size of the snowmaking pond. Running out of water earlier this year at times when you had good snow-making temps was not good. They are lucky they ended up getting rain after that to refill the pond.



I believe win has said there next step is to replace snowmaking pipe with larger pipes so they can run more water to various parts of the mountain.


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## WWF-VT (Jul 6, 2017)

From Win's Word on July 5, 2017

I have previously highlighted the capital projects we have undertaken this summer to improve your experience:  two new chairlifts, two new groomers and two new snowmaking pipes are the major ones.  We now have added three more projects to the list.  Over the summer we will be installing RFID gates at our base lifts, thus replacing the old scanning system we have used for the past decade. As you probably know, RFID cards are kept inside your clothing and a radio frequency opens a gate to allow you access to the lift. This should make your experience in the lift line more pleasant.  It will mean, however, that all season passholders will have to get new media this year before coming to the lift for the first time.  Thereafter, the card may be used again. For someone buying a day ticket, the card can be re-used again by reloading it online, saving the need to go to the ticket window. 

We have also decided to replace one of our 6,000 CFM Electric Compressors at Lincoln Peak with one that operates at variable rates.  Since our new snowmaking guns use so much less compressed air, this will allow us even more efficient snowmaking, which has the double advantage of saving money for us and helping the environment by using less electricity without making any less snow.

Finally, we are also purchasing another 60 SnowLogic guns to make sure that we continue to improve our capacity to make snow whenever Mother Nature gives us the temperatures necessary.


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## slatham (Jul 6, 2017)

[QUOTE=WWF

Good news all around, but especially the RFID. I hadn't fully appreciated this until I skied Stowe and then Sugarbush is quick succession. The scanning was just atrocious vs. the RFID technology.


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## TheArchitect (Jul 6, 2017)

slatham said:


> Good news all around, but especially the RFID. I hadn't fully appreciated this until I skied Stowe and then Sugarbush is quick succession. The scanning was just atrocious vs. the RFID technology.



Agreed.  RFID is much better.  Glad they are installing it at SB.


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## Hawk (Jul 7, 2017)

I am a huge fan of the RFID.  I wonder how they will work the Resort charge on the old passes.  I bet they will have to do away with that.

Thanks, Steve


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## slatham (Jul 7, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I don't think that they are going to invest much in the snowmaking system besides maintaining.  They have their program and they are going to stick with it.  They roll the dice on the natural and it has mostly been working out for them.  They have a lot of towers now, it would be nice to buy more short tower hoses to leave at those locations so they can do quicker switchovers.



tumbler I think they're uping their game a bit with new pipe on two trails (hopefully with the same result as the recently installed pipe on Snowball + Spring Fling), a new compressor, and 60 new Snowlogics. Granted, that's not HUGE but it is certainly more than just maintenance IMHO.


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## mbedle (Jul 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I am a huge fan of the RFID.  I wonder how they will work the Resort charge on the old passes.  I bet they will have to do away with that.
> 
> Thanks, Steve



RFID passes can have resort charge. Stowe has it.


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## dlague (Jul 10, 2017)

mbedle said:


> RFID passes can have resort charge. Stowe has it.



Jay Peak as well.  But on the old passes, I assume they will replace them.


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## tumbler (Jul 10, 2017)

There has to be resort charge as part of the RFID, it is a huge part of their current system with the traditional passes.  Even is the mag strip is still there, it is a swipe system.  I really like not carrying cash and credit cards and it is perfect ofr the kids.


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## Smellytele (Jul 10, 2017)

tumbler said:


> There has to be resort charge as part of the RFID, it is a huge part of their current system with the traditional passes.  Even is the mag strip is still there, it is a swipe system.  I really like not carrying cash and credit cards and it is perfect ofr the kids.


I hate having another place where my financial info can be hacked into. No I don't wear tinfoil hats.


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## mikec142 (Jul 10, 2017)

The addition of RFID at Sugarbush is a nice upgrade.  The ease of use at Stowe is really impressive.  As someone said above, the difference was really stark when I skied Stowe and then Sugarbush the next day.  Good for them!


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## Smellytele (Jul 10, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> The addition of RFID at Sugarbush is a nice upgrade.  The ease of use at Stowe is really impressive.  As someone said above, the difference was really stark when I skied Stowe and then Sugarbush the next day.  Good for them!



definitely the lesser of 2 evils.


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## Hawk (Jul 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> There has to be resort charge as part of the RFID, it is a huge part of their current system with the traditional passes.  Even is the mag strip is still there, it is a swipe system.  I really like not carrying cash and credit cards and it is perfect ofr the kids.



I asked Guest services.  Yes the new RFID Card will have a magnetic strip for the Resort Charge.  Good news.  I like not having to carry my credit card.


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## Jully (Jul 11, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> I hate having another place where my financial info can be hacked into. No I don't wear tinfoil hats.



If the resort's financials are hacked whether or not you have resort charge set up is not going to stop your info from being put at risk. Besides, it is a credit card, it is substantially safer than have a debit or bank account on file.

I agree with you that limiting the number of places your financial info is stored is safer (I will never use Venmo), but not with a place that I already use my credit card.


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## cdskier (Jul 11, 2017)

Jully said:


> If the resort's financials are hacked whether or not you have resort charge set up is not going to stop your info from being put at risk. Besides, it is a credit card, it is substantially safer than have a debit or bank account on file.



Agreed, but my personal take is that I always have my wallet with me...so why do I need to enable my pass for resort charge? I'm perfectly fine with paying in cash or a regular credit card from my wallet. You also now have me wondering a bit about your credit card safer comment. If a credit card is linked to something else and that other item is used to make the charges, do the standard credit card liability protections still apply? I never really thought about it until now.


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## dlague (Jul 11, 2017)

Never felt or had the desire to load my pass.  I too always have my wallet.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2017)

I loaded my Peaks gift cards on my pass last season.  If you spent $100, they gave you a gift card for $125.  The benefit of loading it on the pass is that the dollar amount is stored in their system.  If you happened to lose the gift card, you were SOL. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Hawk (Jul 12, 2017)

I have used the resort charge since it was implemented.  I have never had and issue.  Also I hate to have my wallet with me.  Just another thing to deal with in the morning.  It's just easier and simple to do.  You also automatically get any season pass discounts without having to tell them you are a season pass holder for what that is worth.  Like said above, they have your credit card info in the system when you pay for your pass.  If it the system gets hacked they have it anyway.  What difference does the magnetic strip on your pass make?  Unlike a regular credit card, you can only use it at the mountain facilities.


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## Smellytele (Jul 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I loaded my Peaks gift cards on my pass last season.  If you spent $100, they gave you a gift card for $125.  The benefit of loading it on the pass is that the dollar amount is stored in their system.  If you happened to lose the gift card, you were SOL.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



This I would think of doing.


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## cdskier (Jul 12, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Also I hate to have my wallet with me.



I need mine anyway in case I get carded...which still happens every once in a while. I'd feel naked leaving my house without my wallet.


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## sugarbushskier (Jul 12, 2017)

Too many things in my wallet to take with me while I'm skiing.  I always just carry my license, a credit card, my insurance card and of course a bit of cash.  Hasn't failed me yet!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I need mine anyway in case I get carded...which still happens every once in a while. I'd feel naked leaving my house without my wallet.


I feel the same way.  Though not the carding part. That ship has 99.9% sailed. 

Wallet, keys and cell phone are pretty much always on me or within close proximity to me.


Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Jul 12, 2017)

sugarbushskier said:


> Too many things in my wallet to take with me while I'm skiing.  I always just carry my license, a credit card, my insurance card and of course a bit of cash.  Hasn't failed me yet!



If I start taking certain things out of my wallet instead of taking the whole wallet with me I would surely lose something somewhere along the way (or even just forget to put it back in my wallet). :grin:


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## dlague (Jul 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> If I start taking certain things out of my wallet instead of taking the whole wallet with me I would surely lose something somewhere along the way (or even just forget to put it back in my wallet). :grin:



Actually happen to my wife.  She takes a card and drivers license out of her wallet/purse and actually left it at the bar with an open tab.  However, most places now days just scan it and give you back your card.


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## Hawk (Jul 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> If I start taking certain things out of my wallet instead of taking the whole wallet with me I would surely lose something somewhere along the way (or even just forget to put it back in my wallet). :grin:


This is actually one of the reasons I like the resort charge.  I hate to carry the bulky wallet.  So when I used to take out my license, credit card and cash and carry it with me with a money clip, I would forget to take it back out and leave it in VT for a week until I came back next weekend.  What a pain in the a$$.  Everybody has a routine.  To each their own.


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## cdskier (Jul 13, 2017)

Hawk said:


> This is actually one of the reasons I like the resort charge.  I hate to carry the bulky wallet.  So when I used to take out my license, credit card and cash and carry it with me with a money clip, I would forget to take it back out and leave it in VT for a week until I came back next weekend.  What a pain in the a$$.  Everybody has a routine.  To each their own.



I could see that and for what it is worth, I'm glad SB is keeping resort charge available for people that want it. Even though I don't personally use it, I wouldn't want it taken away as I never like anything that represents a step backwards.


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## tumbler (Jul 13, 2017)

Hawk said:


> This is actually one of the reasons I like the resort charge.  I hate to carry the bulky wallet.  So when I used to take out my license, credit card and cash and carry it with me with a money clip, I would forget to take it back out and leave it in VT for a week until I came back next weekend.  What a pain in the a$$.  Everybody has a routine.  To each their own.



Exactly!!


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## mikec142 (Aug 17, 2017)

My wife and I were in VT for a quick trip this past weekend to visit family.  Spent Saturday bumming around the MRV.  Visited Warren Falls which I had never seen.  I thought it was pretty spectacular.  Then on to the Warren Store to buy some Sip of Sunshine.  Then to Lincoln Peak.  I mentioned this elsewhere, but we've been to Sugarbush so many times in the winter, but never in the Summer.  We bought lift tickets and rode Super Bravo up to Allyn's Lodge.  Riding a lift without skis, in the summer, is an experience on it's own.  We then hiked up Jester to get to the top of Heaven's Gate for some pretty spectacular views.  I'd say the hike took about 40 minutes and was definitely worth the effort.  Walked back down and took Super Bravo back down.  Woulda walked the whole way but we were on a schedule.  Quick stop for a snack and some beers at Prohibition Pig before heading back to Burlington.  Great day.


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## cdskier (Aug 17, 2017)

Cool that you made it to Warren Falls. It really is quite impressive.

I was up in the MRV this past weekend too. It sure is quite beautiful in the summer as well like you said. My original goal was to hike up to the summit of Mt Ellen via the Jerusalem trail to the Long Trail (comes up from the western side). I had to change plans though as my friend had to work that night and we didn't think there wouldn't be enough time by the time we hit the Long Trail so we hiked south to the MRG summit as it is a bit shorter than going north to ME from that point. I'll have to try to hike to ME in the fall when I go back up there. I really want to get to the summit of ME this year via hiking. Maybe I'll do the Long Trail from the App gap to ME.


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## slatham (Aug 17, 2017)

Any updates on the progress on the Village and/or Sun D chair install?

VT in the summer is very sweet.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Cool that you made it to Warren Falls. It really is quite impressive.
> 
> I was up in the MRV this past weekend too. It sure is quite beautiful in the summer as well like you said. My original goal was to hike up to the summit of Mt Ellen via the Jerusalem trail to the Long Trail (comes up from the western side). I had to change plans though as my friend had to work that night and we didn't think there wouldn't be enough time by the time we hit the Long Trail so we hiked south to the MRG summit as it is a bit shorter than going north to ME from that point. I'll have to try to hike to ME in the fall when I go back up there. I really want to get to the summit of ME this year via hiking. Maybe I'll do the Long Trail from the App gap to ME.



I have hiked Mt Ellen a few times including a day when I went up Lower FIS to Rim Run to the summit.  I have also done the App Gap to Mt Ellen and posted a report here


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## mikec142 (Aug 17, 2017)

slatham said:


> Any updates on the progress on the Village and/or Sun D chair install?
> 
> VT in the summer is very sweet.



I wasn't really paying attention.  Sorry.  I did see some new bull wheels for one of the lifts in the parking lot.


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## mikec142 (Aug 17, 2017)

Just read your report on the App Gap to Mt. Ellen hike.  Sounds awesome.  I was with my wife, who appreciates the beauty of it all (and was very proud to have done the hike) but I'm not sure she's game for something more strenuous.  I guess my question about these ridgeline hikes on the Long Trail is how well are they marked for people like me who are not accomplished hikers.  To put it simply, a trained monkey could have taken Super Bravo up and then followed the gravelly path that is Jester to the top of Heaven's Gate.  I'd like to give myself a bit more credit than the monkey, but I don't want to get too crazy.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 17, 2017)

The Long Trail is well marked with white blazes and it's a well worn path.  There are a few tricky parts to follow when you cross over some of the ski trails at Sugarbush and MRG.  If you are taking the Long Trail from the south to the north for example you need to know that the LT takes a quick turn at the summit of Mt Ellen and don't go down Rim Run thinking you'll hit the LT.


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## cdskier (Aug 17, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> I have hiked Mt Ellen a few times including a day when I went up Lower FIS to Rim Run to the summit.  I have also done the App Gap to Mt Ellen and posted a report here



Cool. 



slatham said:


> Any updates on the progress on the Village and/or Sun D chair install?
> 
> VT in the summer is very sweet.



I didn't really pay much attention either. There were some new parts for the Village chair in the parking lot next to Gadd Brook. That's as close as I got to either of the new chairs though.



mikec142 said:


> I guess my question about these ridgeline hikes on the Long Trail is how well are they marked for people like me who are not accomplished hikers.  To put it simply, a trained monkey could have taken Super Bravo up and then followed the gravelly path that is Jester to the top of Heaven's Gate.  I'd like to give myself a bit more credit than the monkey, but I don't want to get too crazy.



I'm by no means an accomplished hiker, yet I have found all the sections of the Long Trail that I've done in the MRV area to be pretty well marked (and for the most part the trail itself is pretty obvious even without seeing the white blazed markings).


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## Hawk (Aug 18, 2017)

I was up last weekend also.  At Lincoln peak, I was told that they are in the process of pouring concrete bases and will be installing towers soon.  Materials are arriving as stated above like the bull wheels.  I have no idea what is going on at North but assume it is similar because they bought both lifts as a package.


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## Plowboy (Aug 18, 2017)

slatham said:


> Any updates on the progress on the Village and/or Sun D chair install?
> 
> VT in the summer is very sweet.



Sunny D: Concrete is poured, towers and bullwheels showed up Tues.

Village: Not sure, but have to go over that way today, I'll update.


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## spring_mountain_high (Aug 20, 2017)

Plowboy said:


> Sunny D: Concrete is poured, towers and bullwheels showed up Tues.
> 
> Village: Not sure, but have to go over that way today, I'll update.



bullwheel is installed on the sunny "Q"


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## thetrailboss (Aug 20, 2017)

spring_mountain_high said:


> bullwheel is installed on the sunny "Q"



Very cool! A much needed upgrade.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## WWF-VT (Aug 21, 2017)

Hiked around Mt Ellen this weekend.  Bullwheel is on the top tower of the "Sunny Q" , all the tower and related components are staged in the parking lot - still a lot of work to be done.  Interesting in that it looks like they have cleared a potential trail from Crackerjack over to the top of the new lift.  It used to just be an unmarked narrow cut through but now it's wide and cleared.  My guess is that it's being used to get equipment and material to and from the top of the lift area.


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## jimmck (Aug 22, 2017)

Village Double replacement progress, taken this morning.

















Additionally, work for the RFID system is visible.  Excavation at the base of the lifts at Lincoln Peak for the install of pre-cast footings/conduit has begun.


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## slatham (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update. Curious about the retaining wall - is that down hill of the bottom terminal? Does it have to do with "Out to Lunch" or other condo access trails?

Also interesting that they are using a pre-case tower bases. Always thought those were 100% done on site. I presume that the precast base will be built into a much larger concrete base poured on mountain.


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## ss20 (Aug 22, 2017)

It always amazes me how pretty every lift install has almost nothing done besides excavation and tower footings come September...then they kick it into high gear and get the lift built in 2 months.


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## jimmck (Aug 22, 2017)

I believe the bottom station will be uphill on the new retaining wall, this is only my guess,  as I don't see evidence of footings/foundations for the base station downhill of the new wall.  It does look that the excavation for the base is evidenced in the 3rd picture which is uphill of the wall.

Also, I don't believe the pre-cast concrete is for a tower.  I think it's for the RFID gates.  They are being set below grade today on the other lifts.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## tumbler (Aug 22, 2017)

The bottom terminal for the Village is above the retaining wall, they moved it uphill so it is easier for beginners to get to and load.  Can't wait for RFID!


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## benski (Aug 22, 2017)

Sugarbush has proposed to put a building at the old base of the village lift. Here is a site plan from 2015 when gad brook was going threw permitting.

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2...IB/Plans/(1-27-15 Revised) M1 Master Plan.pdf


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## slatham (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks all.

Makes sense the pre-cast bases are not for towers, though that's pretty sturdy for the RFID gates.

I also now recall the master plan with Village lift moved uphill and a building downhill of the retaining wall on the plan. That building is a key piece to linking the SB base with the original SB Village.

All good. Now lets get a good winter!


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 23, 2017)

benski said:


> Sugarbush has proposed to put a building at the old base of the village lift. Here is a site plan from 2015 when gad brook was going threw permitting.
> 
> http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2...IB/Plans/(1-27-15 Revised) M1 Master Plan.pdf



Ah yes - the long-awaited and much-anticipated Building E from the LP Village master plan.  That's the one that's supposed to have some sort of retail and/or foodservice on the ground floor and would indeed be the keystone in trying to link the base with SB Village to the North.   IIRC, that will remain just a rendering until and unless all of the units in Rice Brook are sold.

My question is whether the re-grading and new retaining wall helps with circulation in that area when coming from/going to the Out to Lunch area.  I never understood how that was all going to come together and it's not immediately apparent from these pics.


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## cdskier (Aug 23, 2017)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Ah yes - the long-awaited and much-anticipated Building E from the LP Village master plan.  That's the one that's supposed to have some sort of retail and/or foodservice on the ground floor and would indeed be the keystone in trying to link the base with SB Village to the North.   IIRC, that will remain just a rendering until and unless all of the units in Rice Brook are sold.



Did you mean Gadd Brook, not Rice Brook?


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## Hawk (Aug 24, 2017)

Not totally sure what the wall is about but I do know that the new Village Quad is shown on the latest plan as being moved over to the other side of Easy Rider.  The new lift was also to be shortened by moving the base up the hill a little and the top moved down just below the traversing trail over to the Gate House lift.  If these clowns would ever fix the SkiMRV site I could link the thread that has all the latest plans.


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## benski (Aug 24, 2017)

I think win said this spring they are keeping the upper terminal of the village lift wear it is. I think condo owners on out to lunch were unhappy with the changed alignment.


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## Hawk (Aug 24, 2017)

benski said:


> I think win said this spring they are keeping the upper terminal of the village lift wear it is. I think condo owners on out to lunch were unhappy with the changed alignment.



I never heard anything like that.  I don't think what condo owners said had any bearing on the decision.  Condo owners like myself can still easily access out to lunch by using the Gatehouse lift and the new location of the top shown on the plan would still allow you to get over to out to lunch with a mild side hill traverse slightly up hill.  Interesting if they did move the location.  That would require an amendment filing with the Town and also the state per act 250 and correspondence would have been sent out.  I did not see any of that but maybe I missed it.  Interesting.  I will now inquire.


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## slatham (Aug 24, 2017)

benski said:


> I think win said this spring they are keeping the upper terminal of the village lift wear it is. I think condo owners on out to lunch were unhappy with the changed alignment.



Yes I recall this as well, even though some previous plans showed a realignment. Also the pics looks like the new lift is on the same line as he old. Just the base terminal is further uphill.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2017)

benski said:


> I think win said this spring they are keeping the upper terminal of the village lift wear it is. I think condo owners on out to lunch were unhappy with the changed alignment.





Hawk said:


> I never heard anything like that.  I don't think what condo owners said had any bearing on the decision.  Condo owners like myself can still easily access out to lunch by using the Gatehouse lift and the new location of the top shown on the plan would still allow you to get over to out to lunch with a mild side hill traverse slightly up hill.  Interesting if they did move the location.  That would require an amendment filing with the Town and also the state per act 250 and correspondence would have been sent out.  I did not see any of that but maybe I missed it.  Interesting.  I will now inquire.



Here's what Win said back in March when the new lift was announced: "The new lift will begin a bit higher on the mountain-- near the existing tower 2--and terminate at the same place." So yes, the new lift is in the same location as the old lift with just the base terminal being higher up the hill.


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## Hawk (Aug 24, 2017)

Maybe since it became a replacement of an existing failing lift it was grandfathered and did not need regulatory approval to deviate from the approved plan they had.  All very interesting to me.  It will give me something to do while up next week.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Maybe since it became a replacement of an existing failing lift it was grandfathered and did not need regulatory approval to deviate from the approved plan they had.  All very interesting to me.  It will give me something to do while up next week.



Here's all the ACT 250 documents for the new lift. Warren's website is a mess finding documents, so I gave up looking for anything at the town level that was submitted.

https://anrweb.vt.gov/ANR/vtANR/Act250SearchResults.aspx?Num=5W1045-40


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## Hawk (Aug 24, 2017)

Well now CD.  This explains basically everything.  The reason that I personally did not get notification of this particular filing is I am not on the abutters list.  I was for the Phase II filing the first time.  The maps attached show the locations of both the original lift and the new lift.  The new bottom terminal was relocated to just above the lower foot bridge and to the left as you look up the hill.  The top is the same.  The new wall is below the new lift base at the lower side of the foot path that goes from the bridge to the School house.  The new lift costs $1.264 Million per the fee attachment.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 24, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Did you mean Gadd Brook, not Rice Brook?


You're probably right.  Hard to keep track of all the brooks, including the one at Mountainside. :razz:


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## teleo (Aug 24, 2017)

Yes i think you all heve thi right as far as i can tell.  A couple photos from today. Taken from near the upper bridge heading to the village. Looking downhill the  schoolhouse on far right, top of wall is just on the downhill side of lower bridge.  The rebar sticking out must be the bottom terminal just uphill from the lower bridge.

Looking up the top terminal looks to be in place at about the old top.  Might take a walk up there to check it out if I get a chance.


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## granite (Aug 25, 2017)

I bought a Max Pass two days ago.


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## teleo (Aug 26, 2017)

A few more photos from this morning's walk.  From the lower bridge by gadd brook, wall is just on the left and lower terminal is not visible.  All the parts are in the heli lot.  From the heli lot looking back to the lower bridge with lower terminal.


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## Hawk (Sep 4, 2017)

At Lincoln Peak all the towers are now set and the rest of the hardware is ready to go in the parking lot.  Also the concrete bases for the top and bottom terminals is set and ready to go.  Woke up this morning to trucks and equipment going up and down the road so no Labor day holiday for these guys.


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## ingsy (Sep 4, 2017)

Hi folks.  New here, just got a 30s season pass to Sugarbush.  Can't wait for snow.  Any of you guys ever do the Lincoln Limo / cat skiing here?


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## WWF-VT (Sep 6, 2017)

ingsy said:


> Hi folks.  New here, just got a 30s season pass to Sugarbush.  Can't wait for snow.  Any of you guys ever do the Lincoln Limo / cat skiing here?



I have never done the Lincoln Limo.   Powder days I am in line early at the GMX at Mt Ellen.  In December,  hike to Castlerock before they run the chair for some of the best skiing at LP.


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## cdskier (Sep 6, 2017)

Never done the Lincoln Limo either for skiing (I took it up for the Sunset Groomer ride once). I know people that have done the first tracks and they said it was a blast. I'm sure it is fun and one day I would like to do it, but at the moment I'm not sure it is worth spending $75 for a handful of runs before the lifts open to everyone else.

Now hiking to Castlerock in December mid-week on the other hand is well worth it when they have that open but don't have the CR lift running yet. I had some amazing runs all to myself this past December there.


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## benski (Sep 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Never done the Lincoln Limo either for skiing (I took it up for the Sunset Groomer ride once). I know people that have done the first tracks and they said it was a blast. I'm sure it is fun and one day I would like to do it, but at the moment I'm not sure it is worth spending $75 for a handful of runs before the lifts open to everyone else.
> 
> Now hiking to Castlerock in December mid-week on the other hand is well worth it when they have that open but don't have the CR lift running yet. I had some amazing runs all to myself this past December there.



Having done it, this is accurate. The Limo usually does one run on bravo then over the North Lynx for 2 runs then into slide brook, or at least when I did it. It is certainly a treat.


----------



## djd66 (Sep 6, 2017)

Has anyone ever rented the LL for the day?  Personally - if the conditions are right - I think that is the best bargain going - $1700 for the day (I'm thinking Mt. Ellen after a 2' spring dump)  I almost pulled the trigger on this a couple of years ago but was not able to get up there.  It is on my SB bucket list.  Imagine you and 11 other people just doing laps on untracked!


----------



## cdskier (Sep 6, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Has anyone ever rented the LL for the day?  Personally - if the conditions are right - I think that is the best bargain going - $1700 for the day (I'm thinking Mt. Ellen after a 2' spring dump)  I almost pulled the trigger on this a couple of years ago but was not able to get up there.  It is on my SB bucket list.  Imagine you and 11 other people just doing laps on untracked!



How often do we really get 2' of snow in April after ME closes for the season though?

In other news, I got a post card in the mail from SB today advertising the For 30s pass being $599 until 9/13 and $699 after. Cutting it close to that deadline to just get it in the mail now, although I was a bit surprised that they mailed it to me even though I already bought the pass back in March when they first went on sale. You would think that is a simple cross-check of the database to eliminate sending out flyers to people that already purchased a pass. Unless perhaps they are hoping I'll tell a friend or family member?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> How often do we really get 2' of snow in April after ME closes for the season though?
> 
> ?



Exactly. I haven't been in six years, but I only know of one ME cat day and it was a promo for the media in 2009 or so. Maybe one other day.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## djd66 (Sep 6, 2017)

Well when we do get that 2' dump in April and I buy the Lincoln Limo for the day - I will be sure not to invite you guys.


----------



## slatham (Sep 7, 2017)

"How often do we really get 2' of snow in April after ME closes for the season though?"

Well, EVERYTIME it snows in April its after ME closes! And I would hazard a guess that most years there is at least one 10"+ snowfall that would justify a full day limo rental. But if you set the bar at 2' then its a valid point.......

And don't rule out December before ME opens!


----------



## cdskier (Sep 7, 2017)

slatham said:


> And don't rule out December before ME opens!



I don't think they run the cat at ME before it opens. The focus at that point is on getting the mountain ready to open...

Was just looking at Sugarbush's website and didn't even see mention of the cat being available for use at ME at all in the "Cabin Cat Adventure" section. Is it under some other section on their site or did they remove it?


----------



## Hawk (Sep 7, 2017)

They do not run the cat at ME before they are open.  I had this exact conversation with operations people.  Also if you think that you are going wait until you see a storm coming to book the cat over there you will be very disappointed.  Have you not seen the photo shoots when that happens.  It is always Egan and Diggity and the rest of the mountain crew.  Good luck.  You are better off skinning.  I had more than one day over there with the place empty.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 7, 2017)

Mt Ellen - "If the lifts aren't spinning...then the locals are skinning"


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen - "If the lifts aren't spinning...then the locals are skinning"



Exactly 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2017)

Hawk said:


> They do not run the cat at ME before they are open.  I had this exact conversation with operations people.  Also if you think that you are going wait until you see a storm coming to book the cat over there you will be very disappointed.  Have you not seen the photo shoots when that happens.  It is always Egan and Diggity and the rest of the mountain crew.  Good luck.  You are better off skinning.  I had more than one day over there with the place empty.



Also correct. The VIPs that emerge for these cat trips are a big reason why I never took the cat operation seriously. 

The "special perks for special friends" crap also got old. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Sep 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Also correct. The VIPs that emerge for these cat trips are a big reason why I never took the cat operation seriously.
> 
> The "special perks for special friends" crap also got old.



Agree on this completely. It seems like the past few years Sugarbush has posted photos of staff like Diggity making turns at ME a day or two before they open to the public in untouched powder. Pretty ridiculous...


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## Hawk (Sep 8, 2017)

That is a perk that they are afforded as part of the job description.  The pay is not so good so I can't begrudge them for that.  I am also not good with rules so when the snow is good over there, you will find me doing the covert skin to try and beat those guys to it.  ;-)
The regular cat experience at Lincoln peak is worth the money on a powder day and is obtainable if you are on the ball and make the call a couple of days in advance.  I have never done it because I get the early ups pass but many of my friends have.  They say it is great.


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## ingsy (Sep 8, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies on the cat skiing.  I think I'll try skining up ME.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Agree on this completely. It seems like the past few years Sugarbush has posted photos of staff like Diggity making turns at ME a day or two before they open to the public in untouched powder. Pretty ridiculous...



Yes, the "friends with perks" thing that was rubbed in us passholders faces got pretty lame quickly. I will not forget one of the last days I was there I watched as passholders who had been standing in line since 7am at Bravo got angry while "special" people who couldn't ski were lapping the fresh powder. As a local you probably just ignore it after a while, but these folks were passholders for years and were pissed. Why do that shit? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Sep 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, the "friends with perks" thing that was rubbed in us passholders faces got pretty lame quickly. I will not forget one of the last days I was there I watched as passholders who had been standing in line since 7am at Bravo got angry while "special" people who couldn't ski were lapping the fresh powder. As a local you probably just ignore it after a while, but these folks were passholders for years and were pissed. Why do that shit?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



What do you mean by "special" people? Where these people friends of the owners, staff, patrons paying for early access to the lift?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2017)

mbedle said:


> What do you mean by "special" people? Where these people friends of the owners, staff, patrons paying for early access to the lift?



Door Number 1.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## slatham (Sep 10, 2017)

FYI cool little video of installing the Village Quad base bullwheel is on FB. It's not a primary post but a comment under a different thread.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2017)

slatham said:


> FYI cool little video of installing the Village Quad base bullwheel is on FB. It's not a primary post but a comment under a different thread.



Nice!


----------



## djd66 (Sep 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Door Number 1.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I guess I just need to buy my own mountain.  

For what is worth, the day I am referring too was about 2 years ago.  I had the LL lined up on a powder day and could have taken it - but something came up and I was not able to pull it off.


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## benski (Sep 10, 2017)

slatham said:


> FYI cool little video of installing the Village Quad base bullwheel is on FB. It's not a primary post but a comment under a different thread.



I cant find it. Can you post a link?


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## benski (Sep 10, 2017)

slatham said:


> FYI cool little video of installing the Village Quad base bullwheel is on FB. It's not a primary post but a comment under a different thread.



I cant find it. Can you post a link?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 10, 2017)

benski said:


> I cant find it. Can you post a link?



https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/


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## Hawk (Sep 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Door Number 1.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Trailboss, I used to be just like you standing there watching people lap the lift on powder days.  I was probably standing there with you because I was usually there by about 7:00-7:15 to make sure I was one of the first people up the lift.  It used to piss me off until they started offering the early ups pass.  The first year it was $500 so I said no way.  But now at $250 it is the best deal.  So for the last 3 years my wife and I have been lapping the lift with the mountain to ourselves.  I have to say it has been the best benefit I have ever purchased.


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## Hawk (Sep 11, 2017)

slatham said:


> FYI cool little video of installing the Village Quad base bullwheel is on FB. It's not a primary post but a comment under a different thread.



I was up there again this weekend.  They are moving along and things look good.  I was talking to one of my friends who lives near the hill and used to work for the mountain.  I found it interesting to learn that Sugarbush is installing the lift themselves with direction from Doppelmayr.  It seems that they have had some difficulties but I guess with the money they will save, they can afford to do things over.  As long as they have it done by the time the beginners show up things will be good.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 11, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I was up there again this weekend.  They are moving along and things look good.  I was talking to one of my friends who lives near the hill and used to work for the mountain.  I found it interesting to learn that Sugarbush is installing the lift themselves with direction from Doppelmayr.  It seems that they have had some difficulties but I guess with the money they will save, they can afford to do things over.  As long as they have it done by the time the beginners show up things will be good.



Oh boy. Trying to install a lift yourself to save a couple bucks.  {face in palm}


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Oh boy. Trying to install a lift yourself to save a couple bucks.  {face in palm}



Not really, and it's not a couple bucks. They likely won't be doing the entire thing themselves ie installation of the gearbox, drives and controls, but providing a lot of equipment and manpower for setting the towers, terminals, ie the grunt work. If you have an experienced staff and the right equipment this can be done in house and save money. Some of the stuff they will inescapably need Doppelmayre for.


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## benski (Sep 11, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> Not really, and it's not a couple bucks. They likely won't be doing the entire thing themselves ie installation of the gearbox, drives and controls, but providing a lot of equipment and manpower for setting the towers, terminals, ie the grunt work. If you have an experienced staff and the right equipment this can be done in house and save money. Some of the stuff they will inescapably need Doppelmayre for.



How many full time construction staff does Dopplemayre even have. They only seem to need them a few months a year. It is probably cheeper to build a relationship with a local contractor than to hire your own employees


----------



## Hawk (Sep 11, 2017)

Typically you put the site work, concrete, tower/hardware/cabling out to bid with local contractors that are qualified and have experience in lift installation.  Doppelmayr provides all the documents, engineering, grades and final design.  They usually provide site visits and inspections to confirm the installation is to specifications.  Then once all the hardware is in, they come in and install the Electronics, power and controls.  In the end it is Doppelmayr that will get the state inspections and the sign off on the finished product so it is their liability.


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## djd66 (Sep 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Oh boy. Trying to install a lift yourself to save a couple bucks.  {face in palm}



I hear there is a good video in youtube that shows you how to do it. :lol:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 11, 2017)

djd66 said:


> I hear there is a good video in youtube that shows you how to do it. :lol:



How hard can it be? Lol! :lol:


----------



## tumbler (Sep 14, 2017)

From the website blog- they plan on moving over to the SunnyD (Q) at Mt Ellen next and build that one too.  Yikes.


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## villager (Sep 15, 2017)

*Pics of Village Chair Project*

I was up last weekend and took a few photos


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## selsarac (Sep 16, 2017)

who can do it
AlpineZone mobile app


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## Hawk (Sep 18, 2017)

They were working this weekend on Saturday.  I saw Mississippi working on the new operators shack at the top.  So at this point they have all the new towers installed with the hardware, top and bottom stations are complete, The shack is almost complete and it looks like they strung the Power or communications cable up the tower line.  Now they just need the ramp at the top, cable and chairs and the controls.  Also I noticed that all of the mechanical for the lift is at the top. The bottom is just a simple bull wheel.


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## tumbler (Sep 18, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Also I noticed that all of the mechanical for the lift is at the top. The bottom is just a simple bull wheel.



That is the way the old lift was also.  Out west there are many lifts with the drive at the top instead of the bottom.  I would think it would be more expensive to run the power up to the top but is there some physics that make a top drive more efficient?


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## cdskier (Sep 18, 2017)

tumbler said:


> That is the way the old lift was also.  Out west there are many lifts with the drive at the top instead of the bottom.  I would think it would be more expensive to run the power up to the top but is there some physics that make a top drive more efficient?



Yes and yes apparently. Interesting info here in this presentation that goes into some details on the whys: http://peakstoprairies.org/media/Lift-Operations.pdf


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## spring_mountain_high (Sep 18, 2017)

i'm interested to see how they grade/scape the area from rice and gadd brook new construction into the new chair


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## Hawk (Sep 19, 2017)

spring_mountain_high said:


> i'm interested to see how they grade/scape the area from rice and gadd brook new construction into the new chair


The grading at the bottom is pretty much done.  If you go back to page 312 of this thread there are some pretty good pics.  Basically the slope at the exit of Out to lunch coming from behind Rice brook at the bridge has not changed at all.  At the bottom of the lift they built a big retaining wall to level of the area so they can have a flat lift line area.  This is at the lower bridge below Gadd Brook.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 19, 2017)

Page 312?This page shows as page 79 on my screen.


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## Hawk (Sep 19, 2017)

It's how you set up your view.  I do not have that many posts per page.  So you will see the pics probably 1 or 2 pages back.


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## cdskier (Sep 19, 2017)

Mine must be setup like Hawk. This page is 316 and the pics Hawk is referring to are indeed on 312 for me.


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## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Mine must be setup like Hawk. This page is 316 and the pics Hawk is referring to are indeed on 312 for me.



Post numbers should be quoted instead of page number


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## djd66 (Sep 19, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Post numbers should be quoted instead of page number



Its right here: http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/4170-The-quot-Sugarbush-Thread-quot/page312


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## ss20 (Sep 19, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Post numbers should be quoted instead of page number



Yes...we're all on different setups with posts/page.  

I think you can jump directly to a post but I haven't found that/needed it yet.


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## spring_mountain_high (Sep 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> The grading at the bottom is pretty much done.  If you go back to page 312 of this thread there are some pretty good pics.  Basically the slope at the exit of Out to lunch coming from behind Rice brook at the bridge has not changed at all.  At the bottom of the lift they built a big retaining wall to level of the area so they can have a flat lift line area.  This is at the lower bridge below Gadd Brook.



gotcha... just curious to see how it matches up to the renderings in terms of making it a true ski-on, ski-off for the new construction and how/if it ties into the old village...would be cool if the older condos up the hill had more ski-able access too...just daydreaming there


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## djd66 (Sep 19, 2017)

spring_mountain_high said:


> gotcha... just curious to see how it matches up to the renderings in terms of making it a true ski-on, ski-off for the new construction and how/if it ties into the old village...would be cool if the older condos up the hill had more ski-able access too...just daydreaming there



I don't see anything changing with this configuration for anyone coming from the old village area.  Everyone should have the same access as they did last year.

When they built the village trail - they F'd up royally when they did not build some kind of bridge from the Village trail the the village.  It's kind of a joke that you have to take your skis off and walk 200 yards to get to the Out to Lunch trail.


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## tumbler (Sep 19, 2017)

djd66;

When they built the village trail - they F'd up royally when they did not build some kind of bridge from the Village trail the the village.  It's kind of a joke that you have to take your skis off and walk 200 yards to get to the Out to Lunch trail.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Yup, they sure did.  Snowmaking would help too.


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 20, 2017)

Starting to think about winter break....had a great trip to SB/MRG last year.  Might do it again....working theory being. if the season starts off slow re: snow, you have the snow making power of SB, and heck, could even drive to stowe for a day.  But if snow is falling, you've got great skiing at SB and MRG....

Worked out great last year.

Other thought is, try the same theory out in S. Vt.  Get a place close to stratton or Okemo and either ski man made snow there, or, god willing, head over to Magic for early natural snow skiing...seems overly optimistic though.  Driving north really makes more sense I think.

Anyway...looking forward to winter....


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## slatham (Sep 20, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Starting to think about winter break....had a great trip to SB/MRG last year.  Might do it again....working theory being. if the season starts off slow re: snow, you have the snow making power of SB, and heck, could even drive to stowe for a day.  But if snow is falling, you've got great skiing at SB and MRG....
> 
> Worked out great last year.
> 
> ...



Magic is upping their snowmaking game so it shouldn't need a 2'+base to be an option anymore!!!

And don't forget Bromley. Great option vs Stratton and Okemo, unless you LIKE skiing with tons of people!


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## 1dog (Oct 2, 2017)

Sugarbush MRG ski house membership available
$1400 Nov- April ( or close)

40's 50's singles  and couples  email for info


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## tnt1234 (Oct 3, 2017)

slatham said:


> Magic is upping their snowmaking game so it shouldn't need a 2'+base to be an option anymore!!!
> 
> And don't forget Bromley. Great option vs Stratton and Okemo, unless you LIKE skiing with tons of people!



i think I'm going to save S. Vt. for a Jan/Feb weekend trip.  We all had such a great day at MRG, I think the enthusiasm for the Mad River Valley is too high to ignore...


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2017)

Here are some pictures of the progress of the upgrades at Mt Ellen from this past Friday.

New snowmaking pipe on Which Way:
View attachment 22753

New Sunny D Quad progress:
View attachment 22754
View attachment 22755
View attachment 22756


----------



## tumbler (Oct 5, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Here are some pictures of the progress of the upgrades at Mt Ellen from this past Friday.
> 
> New snowmaking pipe on Which Way:
> View attachment 22753
> ...



From you pics it looks like they added towers to Which Way, so hopeully more snowmaking ofr it this season.  Cruiser & Northstar get a bit old.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> From you pics it looks like they added towers to Which Way, so hopeully more snowmaking ofr it this season.  Cruiser & Northstar get a bit old.



I just looked back at my videos from this past season and they had towers on Which Way last year. I wasn't paying attention when I was hiking whether there are more now than last year though. It will see more snowmaking though simply because of the new pipe. I think the old pipe was shot which is why they put a new one in and why it had minimal snowmaking recently.


----------



## shadyjay (Oct 9, 2017)

There have been breaks in the Which Way pipeline for the past two years while we were making snow on it, so what snow we did get down was minimal.  Couple that with various thaw-freeze-thaw cycles over the past couple of years, WW was very slick and undesireable to most.  I did ride it a few times this past season (and not once during 15/16), following some big dumps, and it was pretty good.  It was dense enough snow to cover the slickness underneath.

Towers have been on WW for (at least) 3 years now.


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## cdskier (Oct 31, 2017)

Just wondering if anyone got their new RFID pass in the mail yet. They said they would be mailed to existing passholders "later in the fall" but as we're almost into November and less than 3 weeks away from opening day if weather cooperates, I'm starting to wonder when they are mailing them.


----------



## BarkingDog (Oct 31, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Just wondering if anyone got their new RFID pass in the mail yet. They said they would be mailed to existing passholders "later in the fall" but as we're almost into November and less than 3 weeks away from opening day if weather cooperates, I'm starting to wonder when they are mailing them.



I just saw a message this week from Sugarbush that they were mailing them out now.  Based on what I read, I would expect them early next week.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 31, 2017)

BarkingDog said:


> I just saw a message this week from Sugarbush that they were mailing them out now.  Based on what I read, I would expect them early next week.



Just checked one of my other e-mail accounts that Sugarbush tends to use (not sure why as it isn't the one listed online in my account profile) and noticed at 3:30PM this afternoon they sent me an e-mail saying it is in the mail!


----------



## Hawk (Nov 1, 2017)

Picked mine up on Community weekend.  I think this is going to work real slick.


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## tumbler (Nov 1, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Picked mine up on Community weekend.  I think this is going to work real slick.



Me too and used for resort charging (drinking) all weekend and it was great.


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## Hawk (Nov 1, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Me too and used for resort charging (drinking) all weekend and it was great.



The resort charge option is also my favorite.  I have been using it since its inception.


----------



## El Bishop (Nov 3, 2017)

No photo on the new pass is a bummer -- liked collecting them each year.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 3, 2017)

So Win said at the community meeting that you can go to the ski shop in the Gatehouse and they will have the ability to give you a pass with your picture on it for your collection.  It won't work at the lift but you can continue the tradition of collecting passes.  Not sure of the cost but it will probably be $5 or $10?


----------



## cdskier (Nov 3, 2017)

El Bishop said:


> No photo on the new pass is a bummer -- liked collecting them each year.



Each year? I liked having a photo pass too, although I only had 1 that I used every year (other than when I had to replace it after losing it on FIS in a fall).

I received my new pass yesterday in the mail. Question for anyone that has used RFID passes in the past...does it really need to be kept separate from credit cards and cell phones, etc in your pocket? If I keep it by itself, I'm worried I'll lose it at some point.


----------



## El Bishop (Nov 3, 2017)

Liked collecting them . . . for my kid who's had a pass since he was 2 or 3.


----------



## tumbler (Nov 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Each year? I liked having a photo pass too, although I only had 1 that I used every year (other than when I had to replace it after losing it on FIS in a fall).
> 
> I received my new pass yesterday in the mail. Question for anyone that has used RFID passes in the past...does it really need to be kept separate from credit cards and cell phones, etc in your pocket? If I keep it by itself, I'm worried I'll lose it at some point.



In my experience yes it needs to be in its own pocket and around chest level.  If you have a jacket with a pocket on the sleeve that works the best.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 3, 2017)

They went over this in the community meeting in depth.  Win said he has tested it himself and found that anything in the pocket can affect it.  It has to be in a pocket on your left side by itself between your shoulder and knee.  I hope people have a clue and don't screw it up.


----------



## machski (Nov 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> They went over this in the community meeting in depth.  Win said he has tested it himself and found that anything in the pocket can affect it.  It has to be in a pocket on your left side by itself between your shoulder and knee.  I hope people have a clue and don't screw it up.


Don't worry, many will screw it up and be stuck in the gates.  Has happened everywhere I have been that has used these to date.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Hawk (Nov 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Each year? I liked having a photo pass too, although I only had 1 that I used every year (other than when I had to replace it after losing it on FIS in a fall).
> 
> I received my new pass yesterday in the mail. Question for anyone that has used RFID passes in the past...does it really need to be kept separate from credit cards and cell phones, etc in your pocket? If I keep it by itself, I'm worried I'll lose it at some point.



I know a lot of people who go down to the pass office every single year and get a new pass with a new photo just because they want to keep their collection intact.  They did allow you to do this.  I am like you.  I could not be bothered and just kept the same pass for several years.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 3, 2017)

machski said:


> Don't worry, many will screw it up and be stuck in the gates.  Has happened everywhere I have been that has used these to date.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Mach! see you guys next weekend at Sunday River.  We will be there for the opening.  and I agree with your statement above.


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## machski (Nov 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Mach! see you guys next weekend at Sunday River.  We will be there for the opening.  and I agree with your statement above.


I will be up with the majority of the crew I am sure.  Look forward to meeting you, forecast are turning in our favor.  They had better hold up this time!!

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2017)

Hawk said:


> They went over this in the community meeting in depth.  Win said he has tested it himself and found that anything in the pocket can affect it.  It has to be in a pocket on your left side by itself between your shoulder and knee.  I hope people have a clue and don't screw it up.



Meh...I'm not impressed. This is becoming a pain in the ass before I've even used it! (I'm very set in my ways with what goes in what pocket...and this is now screwing everything up!)


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## cdskier (Nov 4, 2017)

My post last night may have come across a bit harsh. Generally speaking I'm in favor of RFID systems as it is certainly better technology than barcode scanning. I'm just disappointed in the technical shortfalls of the solutions currently available in the market for ski areas to use. RFID is not new and at this point the technology should be mature enough to have mitigated the issue of credit cards and cell phones in the same pocket causing issues. At work I often see women that keep their access cards in their purse along with these other type of items having no issues with the readers being able to pick up the badge RFID signal and get through security. I was expecting/hoping the warning about interference for the ski passes was more of a general overly-cautious disclaimer and that people would say in reality they haven't had issues and it could be mostly ignored. Oh well.


----------



## ceo (Nov 5, 2017)

When I went to Jay season before last, I stuck my RFID card in my wallet next to my work badge and my T pass, both of which are also RFID cards, and it worked fine.


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## Hawk (Nov 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> My post last night may have come across a bit harsh. Generally speaking I'm in favor of RFID systems as it is certainly better technology than barcode scanning. I'm just disappointed in the technical shortfalls of the solutions currently available in the market for ski areas to use. RFID is not new and at this point the technology should be mature enough to have mitigated the issue of credit cards and cell phones in the same pocket causing issues. At work I often see women that keep their access cards in their purse along with these other type of items having no issues with the readers being able to pick up the badge RFID signal and get through security. I was expecting/hoping the warning about interference for the ski passes was more of a general overly-cautious disclaimer and that people would say in reality they haven't had issues and it could be mostly ignored. Oh well.



CD, try it out and see what happens.  What is the worse case?  You have to take the card out and adjust.  The other option that you can do is put the pass in a card holder on a lanyard and hang it around your neck.  Then all you need to do is turn your torso.  I have seen this done also.


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2017)

Hawk said:


> CD, try it out and see what happens..



Just promise not to yell at me when it doesn't work! :grin:


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## djd66 (Nov 6, 2017)

Trust me - it will be much better than the scanning guns.  It was really annoying when you would see empty chairs going up because the scanners did not work.  I have used RFID at many other areas and I have never had an issue.  I expect the new RFID system at SB to operate the same.


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## Hawk (Nov 6, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Trust me - it will be much better than the scanning guns.  It was really annoying when you would see empty chairs going up because the scanners did not work.  I have used RFID at many other areas and I have never had an issue.  I expect the new RFID system at SB to operate the same.



I do agree that those old scanners totally sucked.  I don't know about you but my pass never worked.  I even changed media mid season a couple of times to see if it would work better but NO!
But it is Sugarbush and something in the back of my mind is telling me that they will screw it up some how.  We will see.  I hope you are right.


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## Jully (Nov 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> My post last night may have come across a bit harsh. Generally speaking I'm in favor of RFID systems as it is certainly better technology than barcode scanning. I'm just disappointed in the technical shortfalls of the solutions currently available in the market for ski areas to use. RFID is not new and at this point the technology should be mature enough to have mitigated the issue of credit cards and cell phones in the same pocket causing issues. At work I often see women that keep their access cards in their purse along with these other type of items having no issues with the readers being able to pick up the badge RFID signal and get through security. I was expecting/hoping the warning about interference for the ski passes was more of a general overly-cautious disclaimer and that people would say in reality they haven't had issues and it could be mostly ignored. Oh well.



I have RFID on 2 of my work badges that are both worn around my neck. If I just push both up against a scanner, it does not work ~50% of the time. If I only push the one I want up against the scanner and pull the other back with my hand, it works 100% of the time.

Any issues with things interfering with the RFID device will never go away to some extent. I doubt it has anything to do with Sugarbush being sloppy or inadequate with their installation. Car keys I bet would be fine... a wallet with multiple other RFID items in it I would think would be an issue.


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## Hawk (Nov 6, 2017)

Two things about this.  Your RFID at work is a interior localized scanner.  You put your badge very close to it and it works fine.  These at SB are a Halo type that monitors a much larger area(Your whole left side)  It has a tendency to be a little more picky with signals so that is why they suggest not having anything in your pocket.
I was not saying the issues would be with the installation. The method on how they set up and execute the scanning could be a problem.  Remember these are quad chairs.  They will need to have a large pen after the scanning turnstile so that groups can re unite after the scanning.  So what happens is people get caught behind someone with a bad card or an expired card.  The people ahead wait in the corral for them.  This bogs down the loading and chairs go up empty.  That is why they need a big corral so people can wait for their fiends and family.  Hopefully this has been thought out and planned well.


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## Jully (Nov 6, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Two things about this.  Your RFID at work is a interior localized scanner.  You put your badge very close to it and it works fine.  These at SB are a Halo type that monitors a much larger area(Your whole left side)  It has a tendency to be a little more picky with signals so that is why they suggest not having anything in your pocket.



Interesting. Did not know that!

Those are good operational points though, it will be interesting to see what happens at SB with it. I went to Wachusett a few times last year and used their new RFID system. On one of their quads they had a big corral afterwards and it worked great, on the other quad they did not and it was a big pain. Wasn't ever too crowded since I went at night, but I imagine that it must have been pretty annoying during the crazy crowded weekend days.


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2017)

The gates visible in the webcam look pretty close to the lift loading area...

As for interference and multiple RFID cards, etc...only the SB RFID card should "respond" to the RFID scanners. My understanding of RFID is that there's sort of a unique secret key that each system should be setup to use. Cards from other systems (CCs, work badges, etc) shouldn't respond to SB's scanners. If I had 2 SB passes in my pocket, then yes that would absolutely be a scenario where I could see it being confused (and where anti-collision algorithms should come into play and mitigate that factor to a degree if the system is setup to use them). The scanning system does have to walk a fine line with a big enough range to pick up the pass in a range of space on a person's body...but it can't be so large that it picks up passes from people in other lines or people behind you, etc.

We'll see how this works. I'm sure there will be some growing pains. At least most of my personal early experience should be mid-week in December when I burn my remaining vacation days for the year so no one will be around to yell at me holding up the line.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The gates visible in the webcam look pretty close to the lift loading area...



I checked out the gates at Mt Ellen last week and there is a big space between the gate and the loading area for the chairs.


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> I checked out the gates at Mt Ellen last week and there is a big space between the gate and the loading area for the chairs.



Bigger than what is visible in this cam for Bravo?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 6, 2017)

You're really over thinking this....


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## Hawk (Nov 6, 2017)

We'll see.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 6, 2017)

stop trolling every thread with your survey.

mods - get rid of this clown


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 6, 2017)

Hopefully no-one clicks on that link....agree w mods deleting!


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## tumbler (Nov 6, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> You're really over thinking this....



Agreed


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## Hawk (Nov 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Bigger than what is visible in this cam for Bravo?


Based on my experiences at Stowe, Jay and many other places, that is not a big enough space.  My guess is we will see empty chairs.


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## djd66 (Nov 7, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Based on my experiences at Stowe, Jay and many other places, that is not a big enough space.  My guess is we will see empty chairs.



agree,... If that is the permanant place - It will be a shit show.  The scanning gate should have been placed 50 feet for the loading area (at the end of the coral.  That is how it has been set up at every other area I have skied at that has RFID.  My only guess is that is not a fixed position and they will move it.


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## djd66 (Nov 7, 2017)

Looking at the webcam again - it looks to be in a fixed position,...


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## TheArchitect (Nov 7, 2017)

cdskier said:


> My post last night may have come across a bit harsh. Generally speaking I'm in favor of RFID systems as it is certainly better technology than barcode scanning. I'm just disappointed in the technical shortfalls of the solutions currently available in the market for ski areas to use. RFID is not new and at this point the technology should be mature enough to have mitigated the issue of credit cards and cell phones in the same pocket causing issues. At work I often see women that keep their access cards in their purse along with these other type of items having no issues with the readers being able to pick up the badge RFID signal and get through security. I was expecting/hoping the warning about interference for the ski passes was more of a general overly-cautious disclaimer and that people would say in reality they haven't had issues and it could be mostly ignored. Oh well.



What I did was pick up a pair of gloves with a zipper pocket for a heat warmer and use that for the RFID badge.  Just hold up your hand to the reader and move through.  Now I can keep whatever I want in my chest pocket.


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## JimG. (Nov 7, 2017)

TheArchitect said:


> What I did was pick up a pair of gloves with a zipper pocket for a heat warmer and use that for the RFID badge.  Just hold up your hand to the reader and move through.  Now I can keep whatever I want in my chest pocket.



Good idea.


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## Hawk (Nov 7, 2017)

That is a good idea.  Somebody's thinking.


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## cdskier (Nov 7, 2017)

I like that idea too if I can find a pair of gloves that fit well and have that feature. New gloves were on my list of things to think about getting this year if I came across ones I like...


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## teleo (Nov 7, 2017)

A lot of newer jackets have a pocket on the left sleeve designed for an rfid pass.  Mine, my wife's and daughter's all do and none of us used it for anything because it's not real usefull for much else.

Guns are on[emoji16]  18th is looking good.


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## cdskier (Nov 7, 2017)

teleo said:


> A lot of newer jackets have a pocket on the left sleeve designed for an rfid pass.  Mine, my wife's and daughter's all do and none of us used it for anything because it's not real usefull for much else.
> 
> Guns are on[emoji16]  18th is looking good.



From what I remember, mine doesn't have that, but I'll need to check when I get up to VT (and I just bought it last year...so that's not up for replacement anytime soon!)

They should be able to get some good production with the upcoming weather for sure.


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## JimG. (Nov 7, 2017)

teleo said:


> A lot of newer jackets have a pocket on the left sleeve designed for an rfid pass.  Mine, my wife's and daughter's all do and none of us used it for anything because it's not real usefull for much else.
> 
> Guns are on[emoji16]  18th is looking good.



My jacket has that it came with a goggle cloth attached to a leash inside the pocket. 

Another great place for the RFID.


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## TheArchitect (Nov 7, 2017)

Hawk said:


> That is a good idea.  Somebody's thinking.



I can't claim it as an original thought.  I read it somewhere and thought it made a lot of sense.


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## slatham (Nov 8, 2017)

Surprised to see guns on Spring Fling this morning via cam. Are they also makimg snow on Jester/DS/OG? Or did they turn off some of the upper mountain guns?


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2017)

Looks like they are still running at bottom of HG. Glad to see them work with the temps with the super cold coming Friday night. Maybe trying to open with Jester, OG, DS to Gondi and Snowball/Fling.  Bravo, HG and VH lifts would be nice


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

Wow...I just saw the cam and was surprised as well. I was not expecting them to start on Spring Fling this early even with good temps down low. I wish they had an angle that showed the upper mountain so you could see exactly how much up top is still going.


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2017)

Win said that spring fling was the plan this year if they had the temps.  But here is the Rub.  They are blowing on jester on the upper mountain and only half of spring fling and a little at the bottom.  My wife tells me that it is 25 degrees at the base so the only thing that is stopping them from blowing top to bottom is capacity.  Something that I have been saying in one form or another for 10 years now.  I say it is air but others say water.  I do not believe the water story.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Win said that spring fling was the plan this year if they had the temps.  But here is the Rub.  They are blowing on jester on the upper mountain and only half of spring fling and a little at the bottom.  My wife tells me that it is 25 degrees at the base so the only thing that is stopping them from blowing top to bottom is capacity.  Something that I have been saying in one form or another for 10 years now.  I say it is air but others say water.  I do not believe the water story.



4000 GPM water is not enough to blow T2B on all those trails simultaneously. LP really could use somewhere in the 6-8K GPM water range if they want to blow on a bunch of trails simultaneously T2B. Of course then they'd also need a much larger snow-making pond as that much water being pumped out would drain it in no time unless you have really good flow in from the Mad River refilling it.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Win said that spring fling was the plan this year if they had the temps.  But here is the Rub.  They are blowing on jester on the upper mountain and only half of spring fling and a little at the bottom.  My wife tells me that it is 25 degrees at the base so the only thing that is stopping them from blowing top to bottom is capacity.  Something that I have been saying in one form or another for 10 years now.  I say it is air but others say water.  I do not believe the water story.



From the old days it was the air that was the limiting factor in capacity but I have been educated on the new snow gun technology and it is water that limits the capacity.  They also use more water than the old guns, hence the wet production snow that is mostly made except when it gets very cold.  From the cams snowball seems to be on also and guns on DS.  On the app the HG cam in on.  IF running on Jester also that is actually a good amount of guns on.  After being independently educated I'm done complaining about it.  Saving the cost of making air to nucleate and throw the water further and instead having guns make huge wet piles of slop is what modern snowmaking is.  The savings in cost is worth it for them.
With that- there is room for one more pump at the pond and 5 more at CB-1 so water capacity could be increased...


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

tumbler said:


> From the old days it was the air that was the limiting factor in capacity but I have been educated on the new snow gun technology and it is water that limits the capacity.  They also use more water than the old guns, hence the wet production snow that is mostly made except when it gets very cold.  From the cams snowball seems to be on also and guns on DS.  On the app the HG cam in on.  IF running on Jester also that is actually a good amount of guns on.  After being independently educated I'm done complaining about it.  Saving the cost of making air to nucleate and throw the water further and instead having guns make huge wet piles of slop is what modern snowmaking is.  The savings in cost is worth it for them.
> With that- there is room for one more pump at the pond and 5 more at CB-1 so water capacity could be increased...



The HG webcam isn't back on their website yet, but the static screenshot is still being uploaded behind the scenes... If you want to look at it from your computer, here you go: http://www.sugarbush.com/webcams/heavens-gate-webcam.jpg


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> 4000 GPM water is not enough to blow T2B on all those trails simultaneously. LP really could use somewhere in the 6-8K GPM water range if they want to blow on a bunch of trails simultaneously T2B. Of course then they'd also need a much larger snow-making pond as that much water being pumped out would drain it in no time unless you have really good flow in from the Mad River refilling it.


CD, if you have not seen the pond it has a direct flow from the river into it that is much larger than 4000 GPM and the river is flowing heavily right now so there are no issues there as far as I am concerned.  The pipe up to the main pump is 18" and that has a max capacity of 12,000 gpm if they have pumps that can handle that.  The ones they have I am told can do about 8,000gpm.  That is why I do not believe the water thing.  If for some reason the pumps can't handle that, which I do not believe, then why not upgrade the pump?  I look at all the other resorts that blow 2 to 3 loops top to bottom and it blows my mine that SB can't even do one.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2017)

They draw water from the river proportionally based on flow that is recorded and reported to the state.  More flow, more water.  This time of year they should be filling.  When it gets very high during a rain event there is a large gate that can be opened to fill it quickly.

I'm fine with them not being the first to open, the 18th works for me.  Give them time to hopefully make a lot of snow.  As i said earlier I'm surprised and happy they moved the snowball/fling so quickly to be aggresive with the temps.  With what is forecasted Friday night they should be able to pound it those trails and fall back to upper elevations to chase temps.


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2017)

I'm with you on opening on the 18th.  It gives me a chance to ski around at Sunday River and Killington to see old friends.  I just wish they could run the System with a little more capacity.  This will matter when it comes to expansion and recovery later when we get the inevitable warm weather outbreaks.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> CD, if you have not seen the pond it has a direct flow from the river into it that is much larger than 4000 GPM and the river is flowing heavily right now so there are no issues there as far as I am concerned.  The pipe up to the main pump is 18" and that has a max capacity of 12,000 gpm if they have pumps that can handle that.  The ones they have I am told can do about 8,000gpm.  That is why I do not believe the water thing.  If for some reason the pumps can't handle that, which I do not believe, then why not upgrade the pump?  I look at all the other resorts that blow 2 to 3 loops top to bottom and it blows my mine that SB can't even do one.



The 4K GPM number I mention came from Win himself. It was also cited in a permit or some other analysis document that I read along the way somewhere. I absolutely agree they should upgrade or add pumps especially if the main from the pond is capable of 12K. I was worried the main pipe up to the mountain was the limiting factor and not the pumps, but if that's not the case then there's really no reason to not increase the water pumping capacity (outside of budget priority decisions or arrogance with assuming it will snow and become a moot point).

I still also maintain that they need a bigger pond. You don't plan for the best case scenarios where the Mad River is flowing adequately. You need to plan for the potential low flow years like last year where they ran out of water on more than one occasion. If they had just dug the existing pond to the actual permitted depth, they'd be in great shape with the pond. I think continuing to defer the core snowmaking infrastructure upgrades is risky and a bit short-sighted. Replacing pipes on mountain, replacing the air compressors, adding new guns, etc is all great (and one can argue as important to do as well)...but having more water in storage and getting more GPM to the mountain needs to be in the master plans for the near to mid-range period. (And maybe it is). This year they replaced 2 lifts, so I'll give them that for capex this season as an excuse to not do any major snowmaking capacity upgrades.

All that said, I'm still impressed with the lower mountain snowmaking aggressiveness. I'm glad to see they are taking advantage of the cold temps down low while they have them.


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## slatham (Nov 8, 2017)

Interesting that the snow report names trails with active snowmaking, but not Snowball or Spring Fling.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

slatham said:


> Interesting that the snow report names trails with active snowmaking, but not Snowball or Spring Fling.



They're terrible at updating the report prior to the season starting. I'm actually surprised it lists any of the trails with snowmaking.

Also, I always forget about this camera view from across the valley. You can see where they made snow, but can't necessarily see which trails have active guns on them: http://www.mrvre.com/webcam


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## slatham (Nov 8, 2017)

slatham said:


> Interesting that the snow report names trails with active snowmaking, but not Snowball or Spring Fling.



And they have now updated the report......


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## benski (Nov 8, 2017)

Sugarbush added capacity to its pond after Irene. I have never heard of the pond being a limiting factor for snowmaking capacity. A few years ago Win said the biggest limiting factors were older on mountain water pipes that could not handle the full capacity of the current system, much less an improved system.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

benski said:


> I have never heard of the pond being a limiting factor for snowmaking capacity.



You must have missed last year where they ran the pond dry at least a couple times early in the season. Non-frozen precipitation at opportune times was actually a blessing for them last year to refill the pond otherwise they would have not even been able to make snow on all their snow-making trails. Sure last year was unusually dry...but the pond is still undersized compared to the ones other major resorts have. If I remember the numbers right, Stowe's new pond is almost 5x the size of SB's. K's "reservoir" is even bigger than that.


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## slatham (Nov 8, 2017)

cdskier said:


> You must have missed last year where they ran the pond dry at least a couple times early in the season. Non-frozen precipitation at opportune times was actually a blessing for them last year to refill the pond otherwise they would have not even been able to make snow on all their snow-making trails. Sure last year was unusually dry...but the pond is still undersized compared to the ones other major resorts have. If I remember the numbers right, Stowe's new pond is almost 5x the size of SB's. K's "reservoir" is even bigger than that.



Ok, lets remember this is VT. You just don't go and build huge retaining ponds whenever and wherever you want. I have been privy to some of the requirements and let me tell you there were several WTF moments. I am therefore not sure that the cost/benefit works vs. some of the other items that have been remediated, but I will bet it doesn't because Win is a smart businessman.

Also, "Sure last year was unusually dry.." is a drastic understatement. I do not believe it wise to build to satisfy a very unusual situation.

IMHO that is......


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

slatham said:


> Ok, lets remember this is VT. You just don't go and build huge retaining ponds whenever and wherever you want. I have been privy to some of the requirements and let me tell you there were several WTF moments. I am therefore not sure that the cost/benefit works vs. some of the other items that have been remediated, but I will bet it doesn't because Win is a smart businessman.
> 
> Also, "Sure last year was unusually dry.." is a drastic understatement. I do not believe it wise to build to satisfy a very unusual situation.
> 
> IMHO that is......



They have (or had if it had an expiration date) a permit to dig that current pond to a depth to allow it to hold ~60M gallons from what I recall. It is only dug to a depth currently to hold about 1/3-1/2 of that. Digging it to the full depth certainly would not be cheap, but not being able to make snow in a lean snow year due to lack of water is also very costly (and could hurt even more in the long run if you lose business to competitors). Also keep in mind that last year wasn't the first time they ran out of water. Usually it happens later in the season once snow-making is less important and they can get away with not making more.

I don't want to get into the climate change debate as I'm not necessarily convinced of the impacts on skiing either way, but having a reliable water supply for snow-making is not something I would risk for long term sustainability. Stowe built a 110M gallon pond not too long ago. Mt Snow just finished their new 120M gallon pond. So saying it can't be done in VT when there's 2 very recent examples of it being done is not a great argument. You can argue that Mt Snow is further south and has more of a need for snow-making than SB...but Stowe is further north and yet has significantly more water storage than SB does. With Stowe now being Epic and relatively cheap for a season pass...do we really want to take a chance of running out of water while Stowe is able to keep pumping it out?

I also don't think my statement was drastic. Even this year, the flow in the Mad River was below average from mid-September until late October when they finally received some well timed precipitation. (It was even below the flow of that same time-period the year prior when we did have water shortage issues).

I'm not saying this is the first thing they need to address, but I really don't think you can have a serious conversation about increasing water pumping capacity from the pond to the mountain without also talking about increasing your pond size. The two need to go hand in hand. Relying only on the hope that the Mad River will be flowing enough every year to keep the pond constantly refilling as you suck the water out of it is a risk that shouldn't be overlooked.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2017)

Some of us go way back, getting the pond and withdrawl from the Mad River was very controversal and quite the accomplishment to get approved.  Huge $$$ to excavate and export that material and its been done twice since then in '98 and Irene.  Lincoln Peak had almost no snow making on it, Mt Ellen was the snowmaking mountain.  Ripcord, DS, Snowball/Fling, Pushover/EZ Rider was about it.  Does anyone remember what and where the water source was for South?  It was Clay Brook at the 11th hole at the golf course.  Yes, it could be better but I'm happy it is a lot better than it was.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2017)

And how beautiful was the 11th hole with the pond before the flood in 98 took it out?   Shame that they couldn't rebuild the dam.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2017)

From my view I'm "content" with the current system, but at the same time like Hawk says it'd be nice to be able to run guns on 2 or 3 T2B loops simultaneously like some of our competitors can. My only argument is that if you want to do that, you have to increase water capacity up the mountain. To do that, you have to take a serious look at the pond capacity. If there are no plans to increase water pumping capacity, then your current pond size is "acceptable".


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## benski (Nov 9, 2017)

Back to the rfid thing. I have rfid Dutch metro cards and apartment key. The metro card can't scan threw a wallet and the key card only works without reliably when I don't carry my credit cards.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2017)

cdskier said:


> From my view I'm "content" with the current system, but at the same time like Hawk says it'd be nice to be able to run guns on 2 or 3 T2B loops simultaneously like some of our competitors can. My only argument is that if you want to do that, you have to increase water capacity up the mountain. To do that, you have to take a serious look at the pond capacity. If there are no plans to increase water pumping capacity, then your current pond size is "acceptable".



2 or 3 loops???  I would be satisfied right now with the ability to blow one continuous run from top to bottom.  For instance, right now if you pay attention they can do something like Upper jester and 1/2 of spring Fling.  They can not do a complete run all the way down.  Any time they try to stretch and do more they end up running into issues like wet guns.  That is why I have always said the issue is with the air. But everybody takes Wins word and preaches water.  Wet guns do not equal water issues.  Now people are going to read this and say, well temps are the issue or web bulb temp or something like that.  If that is the case then why are the wet guns not just located down low.  The are higher up the hill with more than adequate temps.  Just saying.


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## tnt1234 (Nov 9, 2017)

Just get all this sorted out by X-mas week, OK?  Would like to have everything open by then.  Hike to castlerock is acceptable.  Thanks!


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## benski (Nov 9, 2017)

Hawk said:


> 2 or 3 loops???  I would be satisfied right now with the ability to blow one continuous run from top to bottom.  For instance, right now if you pay attention they can do something like Upper jester and 1/2 of spring Fling.  They can not do a complete run all the way down.  Any time they try to stretch and do more they end up running into issues like wet guns.  That is why I have always said the issue is with the air. But everybody takes Wins word and preaches water.  Wet guns do not equal water issues.  Now people are going to read this and say, well temps are the issue or web bulb temp or something like that.  If that is the case then why are the wet guns not just located down low.  The are higher up the hill with more than adequate temps.  Just saying.



That's because we know there snowmakers don't check frequently and maybe they are not being adjusted correctly. Nobody denies that.


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## shadyjay (Nov 9, 2017)

benski said:


> That's because we know there snowmakers don't check frequently and maybe they are not being adjusted correctly. Nobody denies that.



I'd beg to differ.....


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> I'd beg to differ.....



Well then, they are gonna want to you explain the wet guns! :grin:


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## IceEidolon (Nov 9, 2017)

If you have low water pressure on HKD/stick guns, that can cause wet guns.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## shadyjay (Nov 9, 2017)

First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air.  The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow.  That's the nature of the beast.  They run with considerable less air.  In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester.  Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate.  That's what we did Monday night.  And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season).  Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS.  The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout.  I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend.  The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).  

IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1.  Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall.  This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).  

We are still hiring snowmakers, so if anyone is interested in how it gets done, put in an app and come join us.  Then, when you get done with a gun run and are soaking wet and need an hour to dry off before going back up, you'll know how I feel when I see a comment that we're not checking them frequently enough.  Plus, there's the "tenants for turns" program which if you rent a room in your home/condo to an employee, you can get a pass for dirt cheap or a SHaRC membership.  Inquire at sugarbush.com.   

Again, as I say year after year, it's not as easy as a lot of you think.  We do our best with the amount of people we have and the resources provided.  It's not as simple as just lighting up guns and moving on.  There's 300+ pages in this thread to look back and see the debates from the past several years.  I think we're ahead of the game this year and after this weekend, we should be looking real good.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 9, 2017)

thank you for your hard work, we appreciate it


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## cdskier (Nov 9, 2017)

Thanks Shady for the work you guys do! And thanks for the detailed explanations of things from an "insider" perspective.

I'll gladly take 200 guns with slightly wetter snow over 20 guns the old way...plus there are plenty of times I've seen amazing dry snow come out of the guns (I'm thinking of some great runs on Steins under the guns a couple years ago). Those are probably the tower guns you're referring to that run at higher pressure than the snow-logic land guns though, which could be part of the reason I'm sure.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 9, 2017)

From John Atkinson Stoke Exchange:   

_"Major investments in new efficient snowguns, lots of veteran staff and some arctic blasts have allowed us to start coating 15 trails already, including a new first way to get top-to-bottom at Lincoln Peak. Typically, we shoot for Jester to Downspout to Lower Jester to Coffee Run. We're currently on the Valley House side, working to link Jester to Valley House Traverse to Snowball to Spring Fling. Organgrinder and Downspout at Lincoln Peak, and Rim Run and Elbow at Mt. Ellen are getting attention too."_

Top of Jester to the bottom of Spring Fling is one helluva long top to bottom route down Lincoln Peak.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 9, 2017)

I would argue that its a much better route too!  Plus it allows the crowds to disperse a little and hopefully ease up the pressure on Deathspout early season!


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 9, 2017)

cdskier said:


> They have (or had if it had an expiration date) a permit to dig that current pond to a depth to allow it to hold ~60M gallons from what I recall. It is only dug to a depth currently to hold about 1/3-1/2 of that. Digging it to the full depth certainly would not be cheap, but not being able to make snow in a lean snow year due to lack of water is also very costly (and could hurt even more in the long run if you lose business to competitors). Also keep in mind that last year wasn't the first time they ran out of water. Usually it happens later in the season once snow-making is less important and they can get away with not making more.
> 
> I don't want to get into the climate change debate as I'm not necessarily convinced of the impacts on skiing either way, but having a reliable water supply for snow-making is not something I would risk for long term sustainability. Stowe built a 110M gallon pond not too long ago. Mt Snow just finished their new 120M gallon pond. So saying it can't be done in VT when there's 2 very recent examples of it being done is not a great argument. You can argue that Mt Snow is further south and has more of a need for snow-making than SB...but Stowe is further north and yet has significantly more water storage than SB does. With Stowe now being Epic and relatively cheap for a season pass...do we really want to take a chance of running out of water while Stowe is able to keep pumping it out?
> 
> ...




I don't think you have an understanding of the geology of the area around that pond. It is layered underneath with solid granite ledge rock.That pond was originally excavated down as deep as it could go without blasting the ledge rock. The only way to make that pond any deeper is to go into full on hard rock mining. That is very expensive and labor intensive.

So, it doesn't really matter how much water the permit allows you to store, if you can't physically make the pond any bigger.

Aso, the only source of water is the Mad River, which isn't some raging river in the winter. Come February, when everything locks up, you are going to have problems refilling that pond now matter how big it is. That is just how it it. A lot of the time there is barely enough water in the river to satisfy the minimum fish flow requirements at that time of year.



:argue:


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 9, 2017)

> Some of us go way back, getting the pond and withdrawl from the Mad River was very controversal and quite the accomplishment to get approved. Huge $$$ to excavate and export that material and its been done twice since then in '98 and Irene. Lincoln Peak had almost no snow making on it, Mt Ellen was the snowmaking mountain. Ripcord, DS, Snowball/Fling, Pushover/EZ Rider was about it. Does anyone remember what and where the water source was for South? It was Clay Brook at the 11th hole at the golf course. Yes, it could be better but I'm happy it is a lot better than it was.




That was the upgrade. It used to come from the little pond right at the base of the Mushroom. We were lucky to run 25 guns at a time. Plus we had to sit next to those damn Chicago Pneumatic compressors whilst on break.


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## slatham (Nov 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air.  The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow.  That's the nature of the beast.  They run with considerable less air.  In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester.  Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate.  That's what we did Monday night.  And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season).  Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS.  The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout.  I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend.  The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).
> 
> IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1.  Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall.  This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).
> 
> ...



Thanks Shady, both for your hard work making skiing happen, and giving this group of Monday morning quarterbacks the real scoop.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> We are still hiring snowmakers, so if anyone is interested in how it gets done, put in an app and come join us.  Then, when you get done with a gun run and are soaking wet and need an hour to dry off before going back up, you'll know how I feel when I see a comment that we're not checking them frequently enough.



Seriously? An hour to "dry off". Hmmmm what ever happened to the clothes dryers we put in the break room and heavens gate pump house?

We were always told to bring 2 sets of clothes to work. That way you always have a warm dry set to change into on every break.

Sounds to me like you guys are shorthanded as usual. It's hard to check and move all of the guns properly if you don't have enough guys on the shift in the first place. We used to run it so one team was always on the hill while the other was on break. Of course, then we had 60 guys on staff at that time.






:flame:


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 9, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air.  The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow.  That's the nature of the beast.  They run with considerable less air.  In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester.  Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate.  That's what we did Monday night.  And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season).  Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS.  The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout.  I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend.  The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).
> 
> IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1.  Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall.  This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).



120 guns on south is not a record if I recall correctly. You are also making an apples to oranges comparison with the gun types. 

It doesn't matter if you're running 10 guns or 100, if the flow is the same. You are still making the same amount of snow, it is just getting spread around more. So, when we used to max out at 25-45 guns, we were still flowing 4000 gpm of water. Thats why we were moving guns almost constantly. The new tower guns are much easier on the snowmaker in that respect. 

The piping from the river to CB1 is capable of handling twice the flow that is does currently. Thats why there is room for another pump or 2 at the pond and room for 5 more pumps at CB1. The system was designed to be much larger then it ended up being. At the time, the idea was to send some of the water down German Flats road to hook into the system at north to help with the meager water supply on that side...... Never happened.



:argue:


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## djd66 (Nov 10, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> 120 guns on south is not a record if I recall correctly. You are also making an apples to oranges comparison with the gun types.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you're running 10 guns or 100, if the flow is the same. You are still making the same amount of snow, it is just getting spread around more. So, when we used to max out at 25-45 guns, we were still flowing 4000 gpm of water. Thats why we were moving guns almost constantly. The new tower guns are much easier on the snowmaker in that respect.
> 
> ...



Bosco-

Based on your post, I am guessing you were a snow maker at Sugarbush? When did you last work there and for how many years?


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## benski (Nov 10, 2017)

Shady I never thought the snowmakers at sugarbush were anything less than hard work. I was thinking more snowmakers to do   Some extra rounds.


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## Newpylong (Nov 11, 2017)

IceEidolon said:


> If you have low water pressure on HKD/stick guns, that can cause wet guns.
> 
> Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk



Not all stick guns, just Low E internal mixing guns. They are designed to use less compressed air but require higher pressure water. Anything less than 200 psi don't bother with the HKDs they'll make slush. Its also possible they are on too high of a setting (too high water to air ratio) for the curremt wet bulb. The older and mid e gums thrive in low water pressure that's why you see/saw them in use higher up the hill where the water pressure is lower. You make up for that with needing more air.


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## IceEidolon (Nov 12, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> Not all stick guns, just Low E internal mixing guns. They are designed to use less compressed air but require higher pressure water. Anything less than 200 psi don't bother with the HKDs they'll make slush. Its also possible they are on too high of a setting (too high water to air ratio) for the current wet bulb.



What stick gun that's low pressure tolerant are you thinking of? The only thing that comes to mind are tower mounted big air. External mix HKD has the exact same low pressure trouble internal mix does.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## Newpylong (Nov 13, 2017)

SR7s, K Guns, Omichrons, etc. of which any will run with a trickle of water. The most recent staple would be a baby Rat. Often used at the summit if low pressure prohibits a Low E gun (or fan if equipped) from being used.


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## IceEidolon (Nov 13, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> SR7s, K Guns, Omichrons, etc. of which any will run with a trickle of water. The most recent staple would be a baby Rat. Often used at the summit if low pressure prohibits a Low E gun (or fan if equipped) from being used.


I'd call all those big air, not stick guns. Not one of those burn less than ~300 CFM in marginal.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## Newpylong (Nov 13, 2017)

We call stick guns any air/water gun. There's stick and there's fan, and many obvious sub-classes, low e, mid e, big air, etc. Semantics.


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## IceEidolon (Nov 13, 2017)

Yeah, every mountain has different names for their kit. I've never seen air hogs and HKDs grouped under the same name though so I was just a little confused. For us stick is a low E tower, polegun any big air on a permanent mount, land gun/sled gun a portable air hog, trailer/portable a fan gun on the ground, fan or tower fan for fixed mount fans.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## Hawk (Nov 13, 2017)

The Gun Tech conversation is killing me.  LOL.  Way too much information.  All I'll say is that I skied Bretton Woods on Friday and Sunday River on Saturday and it was totally awesome.  SR more so than BW but hey, they open Friday.  Sunday River never disappoints.  They had really dry snow coming out of the guns.  Some much so that it wasn't sticking to your jacket or goggles.  Now that is what I call snow making.  Soft powdery turns all day.

Now the real question is, what will the skiing be like next weekend at the Bush?  I am betting that it will be fairly hard and frozen by then.  I will be there either way no matter what.


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## IceEidolon (Nov 13, 2017)

We're just being pedantic - water goes uphill, snow comes out. Everything else is details.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## Treeskier (Nov 13, 2017)

*Look for Sugarbush to open to passholder on Thursday and all the rest on Friday*

Look for Sugarbush to open to passholder on Thursday afternoon and all the rest on Friday.....


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2017)

Treeskier said:


> Look for Sugarbush to open to passholder on Thursday afternoon and all the rest on Friday.....



That would be unusual from my memory of recent history wouldn't it? Even Friday would be earlier than their currently scheduled opening date.

Either way, doesn't help me as I'm not taking 2 more days off work just to ski opening day. I'm content to wait until I can make it up in December. If true though, that would be a nice bonus for people that can take advantage of it.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 13, 2017)

Since SKIMRV site is down for awhile, haven't heard much from SB for upcoming opening weekend.  What trails are the talking on opening?  I saw Snowball/Spring fling in the mix this year plus normal open trails Ograngrinder, deathspout etc..  Sound great.  Are they still making snow?  Saw on Heavens Gate cam they were making snow this morning but then shut off.  Seems like the are well ahead of schedule compared to past several seasons, but are they going to keep pushing ahead of schedule?  i.e. Domino chute, lower organgrinder, lower jester or hate to saw easy rider so they can show off the shiny new lift for Thanksgiving.  Just looking for some chat on the hill


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## djd66 (Nov 14, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> Since SKIMRV site is down for awhile, haven't heard much from SB for upcoming opening weekend.  What trails are the talking on opening?  I saw Snowball/Spring fling in the mix this year plus normal open trails Ograngrinder, deathspout etc..  Sound great.  Are they still making snow?  Saw on Heavens Gate cam they were making snow this morning but then shut off.  Seems like the are well ahead of schedule compared to past several seasons, but are they going to keep pushing ahead of schedule?  i.e. Domino chute, lower organgrinder, lower jester or hate to saw easy rider so they can show off the shiny new lift for Thanksgiving.  Just looking for some chat on the hill



What the hell is up with the SKIMRV site?  How difficult can it be to fix it?  I have to believe who ever owns the domain gets some ad revenue. Just fix the fricken thing.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

djd66 said:


> What the hell is up with the SKIMRV site?  How difficult can it be to fix it?  I have to believe who ever owns the domain gets some ad revenue. Just fix the fricken thing.



Nick owns it (same person that owns this site). Problem is he doesn't even realize it is broken. A couple months ago when he poked his head in here he saw the comments about skimrv being down and his response was that he knew we had an issue in the past with it that was fixed and that he checked and saw it was "up" so thought everything was fine. Apparently he never actually tried to open any threads though otherwise he would have seen the same issue everyone else sees.


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## Hawk (Nov 14, 2017)

I have had several email exchanges with Nick.  I even sent him a screen capture of the Database Error and described what was happening.  He said that he did not know what was causing this and it was above his pay grade.  I thought he was going to do some research and fix this but it seems is never happened.  Maybe someone should ping him again to see what is up.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> Since SKIMRV site is down for awhile, haven't heard much from SB for upcoming opening weekend.  What trails are the talking on opening?  I saw Snowball/Spring fling in the mix this year plus normal open trails Ograngrinder, deathspout etc..  Sound great.  Are they still making snow?  Saw on Heavens Gate cam they were making snow this morning but then shut off.  Seems like the are well ahead of schedule compared to past several seasons, but are they going to keep pushing ahead of schedule?  i.e. Domino chute, lower organgrinder, lower jester or hate to saw easy rider so they can show off the shiny new lift for Thanksgiving.  Just looking for some chat on the hill



I think that they are still blowing up top as the temps have been good but do not know that for sure.  They need to go to the bottom from HG first, then Lower OG, Middle Jester and perhaps Murphy's and/or Birdland before going to gatehouse side.  If temps up top then Ripcord.  To satisfy beginners short term, First Time.  I hope they run VH and Bravo but I doubt they will.  The travese gets old quick.


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## shadyjay (Nov 14, 2017)

I last worked Sunday night and we were making snow on parts of Jester, along with Downspout, Valley House Traverse, and Allyn's Traverse.  If all goes well, on opening day, we will have Downspout, Jester->Allyn's, and VHT, accessible off Super Bravo, and SB->Fling off Valley house.  That would be 3 lifts open.  This would eliminate downloading, but you would have to skate across the traverse.  It should also help to take pressure off Downspout.  SB->Fling is a much better run, IMO.  Of course, I don't know the exact plan for opening day, or even if its been changed.  So stay tuned to the web site or FB page for more.

Where will we go next?  I'm not sure, but usually (in years past)... if we got temps down low, we could go over to get beginner terrain (First Time, Easy Rider/Pushover) and connect base area to Gate House, or if only temps up high, we can go to Ripcord or finish OG (if we don't have it finished yet - the bottom section needs work).  Pushover should go really nice this year since we took the towers off Downspout and put them there, replacing the older ones.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 14, 2017)

More like it's time to give SKIMRV a new home somewhere else, as Nick seems to have too many irons in the fire right now to get it addressed.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

In the latest snow report they are hinting at a potential early opening...

_"Our projected Opening Day is still Saturday, November 18th, but eager skiers and riders should pay close attention for a potential earlier soft opening."_

Nothing new in the report from a snowmaking front other than what Shady said they already made snow on.

It is a shame Nick doesn't have time to get SkiMRV working again.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

The updates from Win on SkiMRV were nice.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

For Hawk from the snow report:  HAHAHA

The snowmakers have already laid down* great base-building snow *on Jester, Organgrinder, Downspout, Snowball and Spring Fling at Lincoln Peak and Rim Run, Elbow, Looking Good and Inverness at Mt. Ellen. The piles outside the Valley House lodge in the base area are already 10 feet deep in spots.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> I last worked Sunday night and we were making snow on parts of Jester, along with Downspout, Valley House Traverse, and Allyn's Traverse.  If all goes well, on opening day, we will have Downspout, Jester->Allyn's, and VHT, accessible off Super Bravo, and SB->Fling off Valley house.  That would be 3 lifts open.  This would eliminate downloading, but you would have to skate across the traverse.  It should also help to take pressure off Downspout.  SB->Fling is a much better run, IMO.  Of course, I don't know the exact plan for opening day, or even if its been changed.  So stay tuned to the web site or FB page for more.
> 
> Where will we go next?  I'm not sure, but usually (in years past)... if we got temps down low, we could go over to get beginner terrain (First Time, Easy Rider/Pushover) and connect base area to Gate House, or if only temps up high, we can go to Ripcord or finish OG (if we don't have it finished yet - the bottom section needs work).  Pushover should go really nice this year since we took the towers off Downspout and put them there, replacing the older ones.



Thanks for the update and keep up the good work.  I would think going to the bottom from HG is a prioity since all the Bravo trails end up on LJ, LDS.  Could use germ chute but thats a lot of traffic.  Beginners not really looking to ski quite yet...


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## slatham (Nov 14, 2017)

Daily Snow Report

Tuesday, November 14th, 2017 - 12:15 AM




BREAKING NEWS: Due to a sweet stretch of cold temperatures and our spectacular snowmaking team, we have rescheduled Opening Day 2017 - 2018 for this Friday. Current season passholders can join us even sooner on Thursday afternoon from 12pm to 4pm for first tracks. 
We plan to spin Valley House Quad for advanced skiing and riding on Snowball and Spring Fling. Sugarbush Parks plans to unveil their first set of the season on Friday. 
The snowmakers have already laid down great base-building snow on Jester, Organgrinder, Downspout, Snowball and Spring Fling at Lincoln Peak , plus Rim Run, Elbow, Looking Good and Inverness at Mt. Ellen, which opens Dec 16th. The piles outside the Valley House lodge in the base area are already 10 feet deep in spots.

Early open but only Snowball/Spring Fling. I would assume the other terrain opens on Saturday?


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## flakeydog (Nov 14, 2017)

Kudos to the OPs teams to get Snowball/Spring Fling open and run Valley House.  I would rather ski that than Jester/Downspout all day.  Also was nice to see them take full advantage of the cold weather and blow snow down low in earnest.  Seems like in recent years all we get are the temps to blow the upper mountain (and marginal at that!) and the lower mountain suffers.  I assume the upper mountain will open over the weekend but it does not worry me because upper mountain has the opportunity for snowmaking on those marginal days where lower mountain does not.  Also, this configuration puts more snow on Spring Fling for late season as well.  We all love Steins in May but it is nice to be able to blast a run down Spring Fling late season as well.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

flakeydog said:


> Also, this configuration puts more snow on Spring Fling for late season as well.  We all love Steins in May but it is nice to be able to blast a run down Spring Fling late season as well.



I'm not quite so sure this plan impacts the spring much if at all. Whether they blow Snowball/Spring Fling now or later they'll probably still put a certain amount of snow on it that they think will be sufficient to get them through the spring. Plus last year Spring Fling had better coverage on May 1 than Steins anyway :razz:

I do like the early season aggressiveness of blowing snow down low when they had the temps. Very cool that they're able to get the SB/SF route open for the first day.


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## Hawk (Nov 14, 2017)

tumbler said:


> For Hawk from the snow report:  HAHAHA
> 
> The snowmakers have already laid down* great base-building snow *on Jester, Organgrinder, Downspout, Snowball and Spring Fling at Lincoln Peak and Rim Run, Elbow, Looking Good and Inverness at Mt. Ellen. The piles outside the Valley House lodge in the base area are already 10 feet deep in spots.



That's actually really funny that you thought of me.  LOL  I appreciate it.  Win not so much.


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## Hawk (Nov 14, 2017)

flakeydog said:


> I would rather ski that than Jester/Downspout all day.



I would rather ski Organgrinder/Downspout rather than Snowball / Spring Fling.  Which is also better than Jester / Downspout.  It is steeper and has a better chance at having softer snow because of the elevation.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm ready to start my ski season on Saturday morning.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

Hawk said:


> That's actually really funny that you thought of me.  LOL  I appreciate it.  Win not so much.



HAHAHA!!!  Did you do that gun run yet with Win?


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> I'm ready to start my ski season on Saturday morning.



Jealous...have a couple more weeks til first turns.  Enjoy!


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Jealous...have a couple more weeks til first turns.  Enjoy!



Same here...


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## shadyjay (Nov 14, 2017)

In other news, the new 17/18 trail map is now linked on the web site, though it's a low-res shot.  Some changes to note:  trails that have been renamed for someone are now shown on the map.  "Joe's Cruiser" and "Sigi's Ripcord" previously had only appeared on the actual trail signs themselves, now they're labelled as such on the map.  Also new on the map is the unnamed connector from Crackerjack to the top of Sunny D, now reconfigured and I believe renamed "Five Star Alley" (or something like that).  And, once again, the name "Black Diamond Rush" is on the map.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> In other news, the new 17/18 trail map is now linked on the web site, though it's a low-res shot.  Some changes to note:  trails that have been renamed for someone are now shown on the map.  "Joe's Cruiser" and "Sigi's Ripcord" previously had only appeared on the actual trail signs themselves, now they're labelled as such on the map.  Also new on the map is the unnamed connector from Crackerjack to the top of Sunny D, now reconfigured and I believe renamed "Five Star Alley" (or something like that).  And, once again, the name "Black Diamond Rush" is on the map.



Cool...although why does Lower Birdland still show the snowmaking symbol next to it?


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> HAHAHA!!!  Did you do that gun run yet with Win?


Nope. There is really no use in talking to someone who does not really understand what good snowmaking is and the benefits of providing such product.  I have 3 days in already and on Saturday and Sunday the snowmaking I skied in was so superior.  Light dry and easily pushed around.  No big mounds of drying snow.  No mucky wet goop stuck to my jacket and goggles.  This is why I preach the good news brothers and sisters.  I realize that Shady and the boys work hard and to their best with what they have and it is really no reflection on their efforts.


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## machski (Nov 15, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Nope. There is really no use in talking to someone who does not really understand what good snowmaking is and the benefits of providing such product.  I have 3 days in already and on Saturday and Sunday the snowmaking I skied in was so superior.  Light dry and easily pushed around.  No big mounds of drying snow.  No mucky wet goop stuck to my jacket and goggles.  This is why I preach the good news brothers and sisters.  I realize that Shady and the boys work hard and to their best with what they have and it is really no reflection on their efforts.


Hawk claims all this dry snow last weekend at Sunday River.  Not sure he actually skied.  I was plastered every run unless I found the line the wind was allowing to be out of the drop zone from the guns.  In my opinion, the snow last weekend was rather wet at SR.  It skied good, but they can certainly make drier snow, even out of the SV10's.

On another note, nice of SB mgmt to give passholders the early open on Thursday.  Unfortunately they waited for the r@#n to return for that [emoji34] 

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## shadyjay (Nov 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Cool...although why does Lower Birdland still show the snowmaking symbol next to it?



And Exterminator too.  And why does the color of the flat-outs change every year.  

I still liked the old trail map which had Mt Ellen at a slightly different angle, thus showing the passage of Northway and Northstar through the mid mountain area properly.  Of course with that orientation, you couldn't show LP and ME on the same side without interruption.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> And Exterminator too.  And why does the color of the flat-outs change every year.



At least Exterminator has hydrants on it to give the illusion of possibly having snowmaking (whether they are connected and functional is another story).


----------



## Hawk (Nov 15, 2017)

machski said:


> Hawk claims all this dry snow last weekend at Sunday River.  Not sure he actually skied.  I was plastered every run unless I found the line the wind was allowing to be out of the drop zone from the guns.  In my opinion, the snow last weekend was rather wet at SR.  It skied good, but they can certainly make drier snow, even out of the SV10's.QUOTE]
> Mach, I skied both days and never got anything on me.  What did you ski right in front of the guns?  LOL you must have been one of those people.  Ha Ha.  We skied on the right side of T2 and punch both days and never got anything on us.  Your post is totally fake news.


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## Newpylong (Nov 15, 2017)

cdskier said:


> At least Exterminator has hydrants on it to give the illusion of possibly having snowmaking (whether they are connected and functional is another story).



They are connected and functional, but after a few bad snow maker slides a number of years back they haven't used them since. Odd considering there are other runs with worse pitch.


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## slatham (Nov 15, 2017)

machski said:


> Hawk claims all this dry snow last weekend at Sunday River.  Not sure he actually skied.  I was plastered every run unless I found the line the wind was allowing to be out of the drop zone from the guns.  In my opinion, the snow last weekend was rather wet at SR.  It skied good, but they can certainly make drier snow, even out of the SV10's.
> 
> On another note, nice of SB mgmt to give passholders the early open on Thursday.  Unfortunately they waited for the r@#n to return for that [emoji34]
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Its going to be a close call on rain vs. snow tomorrow. I would expect mostly snow up top, but if I recall they're only running VH, where the odds of it changing are higher, because it is lower in elevation. Maybe they'll luck out - hope so.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2017)

Glad to see that they are opening tomorrow.  Odd choice selection though.  Different from years past.  Anyone know why?


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## tumbler (Nov 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Glad to see that they are opening tomorrow.  Odd choice selection though.  Different from years past.  Anyone know why?



Because there was record cold and they decided to make snow on that and then move back up high.  They have been running Jester, OG and DS so it wouldnt surprise me if at least Jester/DS opened for the weekend.  An interesting change, we'll see how it works out.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Glad to see that they are opening tomorrow.  Odd choice selection though.  Different from years past.  Anyone know why?





tumbler said:


> Because there was record cold and they decided to make snow on that and then move back up high.  They have been running Jester, OG and DS so it wouldnt surprise me if at least Jester/DS opened for the weekend.  An interesting change, we'll see how it works out.



Tumbler hit the nail on the head. They took advantage of super low temps down low with the expectation that they'd return to focusing on upper mountain terrain when temps at the bottom were not as good. Thursday night and then especially Friday night should have good temps up high to allow them to finish up Jester/DS/OG ideally if they don't yet have enough snow. I still wish there was a good webcam view showing the top of the mountain so we could see what (if any) guns are going. Mount a webcam on the Super Bravo upper terminal looking towards the summit...that would be perfect.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Because there was record cold and they decided to make snow on that and then move back up high.  They have been running Jester, OG and DS so it wouldnt surprise me if at least Jester/DS opened for the weekend.  An interesting change, we'll see how it works out.



Interesting.  And are the newer guns on the Spring Fling/Snowball run?


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## shadyjay (Nov 15, 2017)

SB/Fling is all towers.  We hit it hard when it was cold and is a fairly easy run to maintain, providing the wind is good.  

We're offline until Thursday night, when we're back at it when temps drop.  I haven't been up there since Monday AM but the web cam at the bottom of Heaven's Gate is yielding more snow down there, but most likely still needs some work to get the corral area.  Don't know if what we've made on DS/Jester since Sunday has been pushed out.  I'll find out tomorrow night.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2017)

Just looked at the webcam and the rfid gate at bravo is turned 90’ so it is further away from the loading zone. I️ wonder how they will run the corral this year? The same merging or four rows and “front row”


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## slatham (Nov 16, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  And are the newer guns on the Spring Fling/Snowball run?



You probably know this but they put in new and significantly bigger water pipes on SB/SF a few years ago which radically changed the amount of output. Shady an others can provide details on sizes.....


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## djd66 (Nov 16, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Just looked at the webcam and the rfid gate at bravo is turned 90’ so it is further away from the loading zone. I️ wonder how they will run the corral this year? The same merging or four rows and “front row”



I noticed that too.  Maybe they do know what they are doing.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2017)

djd66 said:


> I noticed that too.  Maybe they do know what they are doing.



HA! Never!!


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## Hawk (Nov 16, 2017)

They saw my post.  ;-)


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2017)

When are they going to open Heavens Gate?  I would hate to think we will only be able to ski just Spring fling all weekend?


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2017)

Hawk said:


> When are they going to open Heavens Gate?  I would hate to think we will only be able to ski just Spring fling all weekend?



As soon as they finish making snow on DS. Ideally that happens today so it can open tomorrow.


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2017)

Hawk said:


> When are they going to open Heavens Gate?  I would hate to think we will only be able to ski just Spring fling all weekend?



I would hope HG tomorrow with Jester and OG.  They have been blowing up there for a while and temps are good right now.  Guns going at bottom of HG.  Let us know how it is.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I would hope HG tomorrow with Jester and OG.  They have been blowing up there for a while and temps are good right now.  Guns going at bottom of HG.  Let us know how it is.



Temps have dropped considerably in the past hour from when I first looked. Was 24 mid before, now down to 19 mid. They should be getting some really good production today to finish up what needs to be finished.


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I would hope HG tomorrow with Jester and OG.  They have been blowing up there for a while and temps are good right now.  Guns going at bottom of HG.  Let us know how it is.



Will do.


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## slatham (Nov 17, 2017)

Report update this afternoon saying tomorrow is just SB-SF. I am a bit surprised by that......


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## teleo (Nov 17, 2017)

Are you kidding me? That is crazy. Something must have done wrong.  Wonder what the story is behind this.


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## teleo (Nov 17, 2017)

Are you kidding me? That is crazy. Something must have gone wrong.  Wonder what the story is behind this.


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## slatham (Nov 17, 2017)

slatham said:


> Report update this afternoon saying tomorrow is just SB-SF. I am a bit surprised by that......



Here's the report:
"We're wrapping up another terrific Opening Day for the 2017 - 2018 season under sunny skies and crisp temperatures in the mid 20's. Tomorrow's temperatures should steadily rise to the mid 30s throughout the day with increasing clouds. 

Valley House Quad will open 9 to 4 PM for advanced skiing and riding on Snowball and Spring Fling. Sample Sugarbush Parks' first 5 features of the season near the beginning of Snowball."

I do not discount very poor reporting where the first paragraph is an update, while the second paragraph (and the rest of the report which I did not include) are left over from today. But that would be pretty lame.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2017)

slatham said:


> Here's the report:
> "We're wrapping up another terrific Opening Day for the 2017 - 2018 season under sunny skies and crisp temperatures in the mid 20's. Tomorrow's temperatures should steadily rise to the mid 30s throughout the day with increasing clouds.
> 
> Valley House Quad will open 9 to 4 PM for advanced skiing and riding on Snowball and Spring Fling. Sample Sugarbush Parks' first 5 features of the season near the beginning of Snowball."
> ...



Also possible they want to wait and make a call in the morning after seeing what they get done tonight?


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## slatham (Nov 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Also possible they want to wait and make a call in the morning after seeing what they get done tonight?



Sure that could be, but the lack of communication, especially vs. the comp, is really astonishing. They just posted on FB with no mention of tomorrow's plans.


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2017)

slatham said:


> Sure that could be, but the lack of communication, especially vs. the comp, is really astonishing. They just posted on FB with no mention of tomorrow's plans.



To be honest I've felt their snow reports have been pretty poor for several years now at least. All fluff and no substance... They spend more time talking about events going on than they do about the actual conditions.


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Also possible they want to wait and make a call in the morning after seeing what they get done tonight?



Apparently not...still not even listed as opening for tomorrow after making snow all last night and into today. Super cold weather and they couldn't get top to bottom for opening day. I was impressed they opened Snowball/Spring Fling so early...but I'm far less impressed now that they still couldn't get the top open. I'm guessing Downspout must still be not ready.


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## benski (Nov 19, 2017)

I saw a snowmobile at heavens gate yesterday. Is the lift broken? The snow looks fine.


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## tumbler (Nov 19, 2017)

benski said:


> I saw a snowmobile at heavens gate yesterday. Is the lift broken? The snow looks fine.



They are using it for snowmakers. With good temps coming HG should be open.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2017)

tumbler said:


> They are using it for snowmakers. With good temps coming HG should be open.



The trail report shows snow-making targeted for a bunch of lower mountain trails next (unless it is a mistake)...including Steins (have they ever made snow on that trail THIS early?), Lower DS, Lower Jester, Coffee Run, and First Time. None of the HG trails (including DS) are on the report which hopefully means they're now done making snow up there on OG, Jester, and DS and will open those trails soon.

If the Stein's part is accurate, I'm not sure I agree on that next. I'd rather Lower OG actually this time of year.


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## teleo (Nov 19, 2017)

Guns are set up with hoses attached on coffee run.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 19, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The trail report shows snow-making targeted for a bunch of lower mountain trails next (unless it is a mistake)...including Steins (have they ever made snow on that trail THIS early?), Lower DS, Lower Jester, Coffee Run, and First Time. None of the HG trails (including DS) are on the report which hopefully means they're now done making snow up there on OG, Jester, and DS and will open those trails soon.
> 
> If the Stein's part is accurate, I'm not sure I agree on that next. I'd rather Lower OG actually this time of year.



I hope Heaven gate is ok.  I can understand the lower downspout run out, but steins over Ripcord. Also no word when the upper mtns is going to open.  I wish someone from the hill will fill us in.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I hope Heaven gate is ok.  I can understand the lower downspout run out, but steins over Ripcord. Also no word when the upper mtns is going to open.  I wish someone from the hill will fill us in.



I can understand Stein's over Ripcord if you think you'll have good enough temps down low to take advantage of that with the thought of being able to go back up to hit RC when temps down low become marginal at some point.

But, no word at all on when the upper mountain is opening is very odd for sure. Even if DS needed more snow a few days ago, they should have been able to finish it up Friday-Saturday before it warmed up.

This is where having a functional SkiMRV forum would be great so we could get word directly from Win. Is something wrong? Or are they just taking their time letting the snow drain out before they groom it?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 19, 2017)

I skied yesterday.  Fast and firm conditions but a good opening day and most people were pleased with the trail options and no need to download.   Might have been an economic decision to just run the Valley House chair instead of 3 lifts on day one.


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## shadyjay (Nov 19, 2017)

I believe they are waiting to push out Downspout and Jester, letting it drain out first.  That may be on the push list for tonight.  There's nothing wrong with HG.  I rode it Friday night.  I believe for tonight we're gonna concentrate on pushing from the bottom of HG to the base via lower DS/lower Jester/Coffee Run and hit the base area towards Gate House/First Time.  Stein's may be a backup if we have any water left over once we get everything else online.  Once DS is pushed out, then it can be determined if that needs more snow or not.  

We're trying something different with DS this year, using land guns instead of towers.  The towers over the past few years have gotten super buried and the snow we made ends up more in the woods than on the trail.  This year, everything we've made has largely ended up on the trail.  

Depending on temps this week, we may be able to lock in the Bravo top-to-bottom route to eliminate having to upload on HG to get back to the open trail network.  Having multiple routes takes the pressure off DS.  

I'll know more after tonight's shift.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2017)

Thanks for the update Shady. Good to know there's nothing wrong. I had a feeling you were using land guns on DS this year based on your earlier comment that Pushover would be easier this year after moving the towers from DS to there. Could certainly work out better based on what you're saying.


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## benski (Nov 19, 2017)

Is it important to have lower downspout open for mountain ops? Just my think its one of the more boring trails to open and with one top to bottom route open, why prioritize it. Probably smart to close downspout with guns in the middle.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2017)

benski said:


> Is it important to have lower downspout open for mountain ops? Just my think its one of the more boring trails to open and with one top to bottom route open, why prioritize it. Probably smart to close downspout with guns in the middle.



It is considered an important trail as it eliminates the need to upload on HG after skiing OG in order to get to the base. Without Lower DS, if you ski OG, you have to upload on HG and ski down Jester and then across the VH traverse if you want to go back to the base.


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## teleo (Nov 19, 2017)

Glad to hear the gate is running.  I was starting to get worried.  Was good to get back on snow this weekend.  Thanks to you and the crews Shady.

Gotta believe lower DS is important for patrol.  If someone gets injured on deathspout, much better to be able to sled them down.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 20, 2017)

Must've had extra water as snowmaking is rolling on Steins.  Interesting to see them switch gears completely this year on the rollout.  If they get lower DS open, they will have the ability to really spread crowds out, therefore minimizing the death spout effect.


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2017)

I’m surprised Steins over Lower OG. Steins is shorter, less guns but LOG is more needed and can open with less snow. Steeper terrain takes more depth. We’ll see how it plays out. I’m hoping it works for my skiing sake.


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## benski (Nov 20, 2017)

also Steins requires you to take valley house traverse without the valley house, Once downspout is open the valley house will probably be closed till Christmas, barring no issues with bravo, this is a big issue. On the plus side, I think a mogul run will stand out early season, and such runs stay interesting for longer.


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2017)

benski said:


> also Steins requires you to take valley house traverse without the valley house, Once downspout is open the valley house will probably be closed till Christmas, barring no issues with bravo, this is a big issue. On the plus side, I think a mogul run will stand out early season, and such runs stay interesting for longer.



I don't think this is an issue. I wouldn't at all be surprised to still see the VH chair running weekends even once Super Bravo opens, especially given the terrain open on that side of the mountain.

Also looks like they are now starting to push out DS. I see a groomer on the HG webcam.


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## Hawk (Nov 20, 2017)

I don't know.  It still amazes me that after two weeks of pretty good snow making temperatures they can only muster 2 trails.  There were lots of rumors flying around on Saturday at the bar.  They ran out of water..... Didn't want to staff 3 lifts.....there simply was not enough snow to open jester or downspout.   I actually got it first hand an understand the issues but you know what they say.  In the absence of a clear message, people will believe nearly anything they hear.  So where is the clear message?


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## bumpcrasher (Nov 20, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I don't know.  It still amazes me that after two weeks of pretty good snow making temperatures they can only muster 2 trails.  There were lots of rumors flying around on Saturday at the bar.  They ran out of water..... Didn't want to staff 3 lifts.....there simply was not enough snow to open jester or downspout.   I actually got it first hand an understand the issues but you know what they say.  In the absence of a clear message, people will believe nearly anything they hear.  So where is the clear message?




Agreed!!  Rumors are flying.  To add one, "I heard" the state inspector was not scheduled to do the load test on Super Bravo until this Wednesday.  Again, not sure this info is accurate (from an employee--not naming names!) but in the absence of any additional information, kind of left to speculate on why they would not have Heaven's Gate open.


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I don't know.  It still amazes me that after two weeks of pretty good snow making temperatures they can only muster 2 trails.  There were lots of rumors flying around on Saturday at the bar.  They ran out of water..... Didn't want to staff 3 lifts.....there simply was not enough snow to open jester or downspout.   I actually got it first hand an understand the issues but you know what they say.  In the absence of a clear message, people will believe nearly anything they hear.  So where is the clear message?



A friend who was up this weekend said that he heard that it was a combination of preserving snow (due to forecasted rain) and due to the lack of people expected (due to forecasted rain). While I understand the hesitancy of communicating the 2nd part, the 1st reason is very legit and I think most would understand given how early it is and the desire to have the best possible skiing for Thanksgiving.


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## benski (Nov 20, 2017)

Is the problem that they switched to the lower mountain to take advantage of temperatures before finishing Heavens gate combined with putting the snow-guns in the middle of the downspout?


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2017)

Such juicy rumours!  Par for the course, seems to happen every year.


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## Hawk (Nov 20, 2017)

Well they got plenty of water yesterday and the rivers were flowing really good on Sunday so they can take that excuse off the list.  Time to open the upper mountain.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 20, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Well they got plenty of water yesterday and the rivers were flowing really good on Sunday so they can take that excuse off the list.  Time to open the upper mountain.



Hey Fellas, glad to see the annual snowmaking debate lives on.  Hope to be up in a few weeks.


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Well they got plenty of water yesterday and the rivers were flowing really good on Sunday so they can take that excuse off the list.  Time to open the upper mountain.



Please tell me they didn't really run out of water and that one was just an unsubstantiated rumor...

Still no mention in the report of any upper mountain opening plans. Pretty cool that the Swiss team will be using Spring Fling tomorrow morning for World Cup training though.


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## benski (Nov 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Please tell me they didn't really run out of water and that one was just an unsubstantiated rumor...
> 
> Still no mention in the report of any upper mountain opening plans. Pretty cool that the Swiss team will be using Spring Fling tomorrow morning for World Cup training though.



There making plenty of snow on Steins and I hear Lower Downspout>Coffee Run so they are plenty able to make snow.


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## djd66 (Nov 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Please tell me they didn't really run out of water and that one was just an unsubstantiated rumor...
> 
> Still no mention in the report of any upper mountain opening plans. Pretty cool that the Swiss team will be using Spring Fling tomorrow morning for World Cup training though.



I think the rumor them running out of water thing is complete BS,... although Hawk seems to know everyone and everything - so i guess i will have to believe what he says


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## shadyjay (Nov 21, 2017)

Just shut down... temps bumped up to above 30 degrees.  But prior to that, we got some good base on Lower DS/Lower Jester/Coffee Run.  Still will require more runtime, though.  Same with Stein's.  We also had some guns on VHT going, which we needed to get locked in before Bravo/HG opens.  DS and Jester all pushed out so hopefully they should be opening any time now.  They may be waiting on VHT to get a final groom after we made snow on it in order to have an escape route out of Bravo/HG.  Below HG down to the bottom will still require a few more days of runtime, depending on temps.  We also started on First Time.

Hope everyone on here has a Happy Thanksgiving and that we can get rid of these freeze/thaw cycles soon!


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## Hawk (Nov 21, 2017)

djd66 said:


> I think the rumor them running out of water thing is complete BS,... although Hawk seems to know everyone and everything - so i guess i will have to believe what he says


I personally can not verify the running out of water rumor.  I did not go down to the pond. But the person I spoke to is pretty well connected and On Saturday morning the temps were in the lower 20's and they were only running a couple of guns at the bottom and at the bottom of HG..  What are the reasons for that?  I can only think of two.  No water or they did not send out the snow makers for some other reason. Money, rest, Mechanical reasons.   My guess is the Water.  Either way I hope there is more terrain on Thanksgiving or it will be awfully crowded.


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## djd66 (Nov 21, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I personally can not verify the running out of water rumor.  I did not go down to the pond. But the person I spoke to is pretty well connected and On Saturday morning the temps were in the lower 20's and they were only running a couple of guns at the bottom and at the bottom of HG..  What are the reasons for that?  I can only think of two.  No water or they did not send out the snow makers for some other reason. Money, rest, Mechanical reasons.   My guess is the Water.  Either way I hope there is more terrain on Thanksgiving or it will be awfully crowded.



Sounds like Snowgun-gate,...    Did you meet with your source in the Claybrook underground parking garage? Does he go by the name of DeepSnow?

I am just busting your chops,... who the frick knows.  It is really early and I would prefer if they preserve the snowmaking budget for when it is consistently cold.


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## Hawk (Nov 21, 2017)

Your right.  It's mostly just conversation while I wait to head back up on Thursday night.  As always, we all just have to understand that they will never be a great snow making mountain.  It's not in their DNA.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Your right.  It's mostly just conversation while I wait to head back up on Thursday night.  As always, we all just have to understand that they will never be a great snow making mountain.  It's not in their DNA.



Yea...sort of works well with my usual schedule of not making it up there until December most years anyway. I wish the snow-making situation would change, but the roadblocks seem to require some rather significant investment to overcome.


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## CoolMike (Nov 21, 2017)

For the Bush it's more than just the snow making that is the problem.  Sugarbush is weirdly bad at grooming.  The trails they do groom are often icy and chunky.  There is almost never decent corduroy even if you are in line for first chair.  The grooming problems extend out to snow resurfacing and preservation after bad weather or rain as well.  

Sugarbush does weird stuff that no other mountain does with their snow making as well.  For example, they let the snow "cure" for days and days - sometimes a week.  At this point is a huge frozen mound of ice that needs to be tilled and groomed repeatedly and will never be as good as a freshly blown and groomed trail.  Some people say the idea is to let the moisture drain out.  Think about this logically...its winter (or nearly winter), the ground is frozen (or nearly frozen), do we really expect the moisture to drain in any meaningful way?

Imagine how amazing Sugarbush would be if they were able to create and maintain snow as well as Sunday River.  Keep in mind that they get double the snow on average at the bush!

I love Sugarbush and have skied there more than 60 times in the last 3 years but variable conditions on snow making trails is something that frequent skiers there simply need to get used to.  Some days at the Bush you just gotta game plan your day - ie: hit Downspout early to get to HG then a handful of laps and then jump over to North Lynx once the sun warms up the south face slopes a little to hit the some bumps, and so on.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 21, 2017)

Letting the snow cure in whales is a pretty common practice at a lot of ski areas, so there must a reason for it.  Almost everywhere I ski does this

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Jully (Nov 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Letting the snow cure in whales is a pretty common practice at a lot of ski areas, so there must a reason for it.  Almost everywhere I ski does this
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



It is definitely a real thing, but I feel like I've anecdotally noticed that it has become less frequent in recent years or at least the cure time has decreased at a number of areas. 

Could the new low-E guns have something to do with it?

I think I remember hearing this last year in this thread too, lol, but the complaint was that SB lets their snow sit for longer than most areas do? Letting snow drain for a day or two versus a week at SB?


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## doublediamond (Nov 21, 2017)

Yes, new low-E guns make drier snow meaning less time needed for draining the snow.

Correct me if I'm wrong -- haven't been to Sugarbush in a few years -- but aren't they a bit behind the curve with adoption of low-E guns?


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 21, 2017)

They actually have quite a bit of snow logic tower and ground guns as well as HKD low E guns.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Yes, new low-E guns make drier snow meaning less time needed for draining the snow.



That's the exact opposite of what was said a couple weeks ago in this thread when we had the discussion on "wet" snow coming out of the guns at SB. 



> The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow. That's the nature of the beast. They run with considerable less air.





jimmywilson69 said:


> They actually have quite a bit of snow logic tower and ground guns as well as HKD low E guns.



Yes, they've added a ton of low E guns in the past several years.


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## slatham (Nov 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> That's the exact opposite of what was said a couple weeks ago in this thread when we had the discussion on "wet" snow coming out of the guns at SB.  QUOTE]
> 
> Yes there have been some contradictions but I think that's because its never apples to apples. The bottom line is any gun can be made to be more wet or dry based on the amount of air vs. water.
> 
> ...


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## Newpylong (Nov 21, 2017)

Air Hog, Mid E, Low E, fan - all can be made to make wet or dryer snow by the snow maker or weather conditions.

Letting piles leach is most certainly a thing. The water not only drains in the traditionally way that you would think but it also evaporates. You don't have to if you want base snow but if you push out a fresh pile it will usually set up like a glacier. 24 hrs is usually enough but of course that varies like anything.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2017)

In better news...Sugarbush plans to open the top tomorrow (if the winds cooperate):

_If the winds hold off, we plan to expand our offerings to include Organgrinder, Jester, Allyn's Traverse, Valley House Traverse, and Downspout with Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate running 9:00 AM - 3:45 PM. Valley House will run 9:00 - 3:45 PM. Note there will be no route to the base from Heaven's Gate. The route to the bottom is Jester, Allyn's Traverse, Valley House Traverse, Snowball, Spring Fling._


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## Hawk (Nov 21, 2017)

So a couple of things here.  The new guns that Sugarbush bought(All Low-e) use more water and less air than the old ones they had before.  If you look at them as they work they certain blow out a lot of water.  I can also state with all certainty that the snow that come out of them is much wetter than before.  This is a fact.  I am not going to debate this.
Also Sunday River does not pile the snow up and let it dry.  They have multiple crews of snow makers on staff and continuously move the guns and hoses so that they get even distribution. There are no mounds of drying snow there.  They also have a huge compressor plant and use a ton of air when they make snow.  This is why they have dryer snow.  I know this as fact as I worked there once and have friends that still do.  When I told them about the drying snow mounds and asked why sugarbush would do this.  They laughed and said "They don't know how to make snow, that is why"  LOL


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## slatham (Nov 21, 2017)

Hawk said:


> So a couple of things here.  The new guns that Sugarbush bought(All Low-e) use more water and less air than the old ones they had before.  If you look at them as they work they certain blow out a lot of water.  I can also state with all certainty that the snow that come out of them is much wetter than before.  This is a fact.  I am not going to debate this.
> Also Sunday River does not pile the snow up and let it dry.  They have multiple crews of snow makers on staff and continuously move the guns and hoses so that they get even distribution. There are no mounds of drying snow there.  They also have a huge compressor plant and use a ton of air when they make snow.  This is why they have dryer snow.  I know this as fact as I worked there once and have friends that still do.  When I told them about the drying snow mounds and asked why sugarbush would do this.  They laughed and said "They don't know how to make snow, that is why"  LOL



Hawk I have observed and wondered why the art of an even resurfacing of the trail is no longer done by many areas, preferring instead to let the gun run on one spot, let it dry, then groom it out (Mt Snow is an exception with all the fan guns, which are the ultimate resurfacing machine if the trail is wide enough). I have to think the physical requirements and costs must play some role, but I have not heard the justification from someone who knows. Maybe Shady has a thought.

Regarding the "wetness" of the snow coming out of the gun, I can't argue with you on the experience at Sugarbush, but I know first hand those low-e guns can make dry snow if you want them too.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2017)

CoolMike said:


> For the Bush it's more than just the snow making that is the problem.  Sugarbush is weirdly bad at grooming.  The trails they do groom are often icy and chunky.  There is almost never decent corduroy even if you are in line for first chair.  The grooming problems extend out to snow resurfacing and preservation after bad weather or rain as well.
> 
> Sugarbush does weird stuff that no other mountain does with their snow making as well.  For example, they let the snow "cure" for days and days - sometimes a week.  At this point is a huge frozen mound of ice that needs to be tilled and groomed repeatedly and will never be as good as a freshly blown and groomed trail.  Some people say the idea is to let the moisture drain out.  Think about this logically...its winter (or nearly winter), the ground is frozen (or nearly frozen), do we really expect the moisture to drain in any meaningful way?
> 
> ...



Full disclosure:  my last time skiing at Sugarbush was 2011, so my observations and intel are quite dated.  

That said, I noticed my last few seasons there that the grooming and snow on Lincoln Peak was not as good as ME.  One explanation I got from a mountain ops guy was that LP used more water in their snow to make it last longer.  

As to snowmaking being like Sunday River, that is not going to happen anytime soon.  Sunday River has, pretty much forever, accepted that their product is snowmaking because they just don't get as much consistent natural snow.  Sunday River for decades has invested tons of money and time into making good snow.  That has continued.  

Sugarbush, under LBO, did expand their snowmaking quite a bit.  But under the current regime the response has been to rely more on natural snow in order to maintain expenses.  Sugarbush, from what I observed and now hear about, makes snow to open a run and then maybe again to refresh if needed.  This is different from SR who relies on snowmaking to refresh because they just don't get as much snow.  That at least was the MO when I was there my last few years.  

It is what it is.  I know that we have had many debates about their philosophy and how it differs from SR and other places.

From my remote vantage, I am happy to see that they were aggressive to open this season.  I have seen grumbling about them not opening to the top and I understand the frustration.  To put it in perspective, Alta threw in the towel as to opening on 11.22 a whole week ago before the recent snow and cold snap.  But Snowbird is opening tomorrow.  Some of you have multiple days now ahead of me.


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## tumbler (Nov 21, 2017)

Same debate, different year.  
They make wet snow on one trail for days in big piles then groom it out.
There is no resurfacing or jumping around to fire up a trail at 4pm and shut down at 7am and put down a nice dry product.
With the SR7 guns we made dry snow and were not allowed to make whales.  Move the guns every run for even spread.
We had guns and hoses all over the hill so no stripping the trail and setting up a new one.  One for one shut down and fire up.
They will resurface key trails after rain but a lot of the rain events are followed by snow on the backside so they get help.
They now make snow for depth, not for quality.  It has worked for them and have had some luck with weather.  
It's early season, we need something to talk about.  Pray for snow.


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## Hawk (Nov 22, 2017)

Yes, Pray for snow.  Amen.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 22, 2017)

Skied Sugarbush today.  Top of the mtn skied great. about 3-4 inches of new snow.  real dense.  Top skied great. Bottom was wet.   It's interesting set up they have with Snowball/Spring Fling and the upper mtn.  Though I like their aggressiveness, it doesn't make sense to me for early season.  Really need to Run three lifts to use current open terrain unless you want to do Valley house traverse all the time. But I do understand taking pressure off death spout.   With the amount of snow they needed to blow on snowball/spring fling to get them covered they could have probably concentrated on domino shoot, lower organgrinder and lower jester and taken the stress of death spout that way.  But anyway The upper mtn skied really good today, Sugarbush is off to great start.


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2017)

According to Win's latest blog post, they caught someone trying to use someone else's pass already...I guess I'm a bit naive in thinking people wouldn't even try that...



> Our new AXXESS gates are working well.  That is, IF one places the card correctly.  Please remember it needs to be in a pocket on your left side and be there by itself.  Nothing else should be in that pocket next to your SugarXpress Card. Sadly it worked well in another way as one of our lift operators caught someone trying to use another’s SugarXpress Card.  The picture of the passholder came up on the tablet and the operator recognized it as a different individual.  The lift operator received a cash reward, and we have now confiscated that pass.


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## shadyjay (Nov 24, 2017)

So looks like a couple cold nights of snowmaking this week was all it took to open up Lower DS/Lower Jester/Coffee Run AND Stein's.  I'd say this is the most trails we've had open for Thanksgiving weekend in years.  Be aware that despite what the app's trail map says, the only part of Lower Jester that's open is from the Castlerock Cutoff, down to the base.  The mid section (what we call "Middle Jester", the switchbacks across Lower OG) is not yet open.

Looks like we're offline til sometime on Sunday.  Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 24, 2017)

shadyjay said:


> So looks like a couple cold nights of snowmaking this week was all it took to open up Lower DS/Lower Jester/Coffee Run AND Stein's.  I'd say this is the most trails we've had open for Thanksgiving weekend in years.  Be aware that despite what the app's trail map says, the only part of Lower Jester that's open is from the Castlerock Cutoff, down to the base.  The mid section (what we call "Middle Jester", the switchbacks across Lower OG) is not yet open.
> 
> Looks like we're offline til sometime on Sunday.  Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!



Thanks Shadyjay.  Glad to see such a good start from previous years.  What's amazing about the start is the amount of terrain Sugarbush has blown at Mt Ellen also. Why again do they wait so late to open Ellen each year? Is it Lack of People? A state forest agreement? just curious.


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## benski (Nov 24, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> Thanks Shadyjay.  Glad to see such a good start from previous years.  What's amazing about the start is the amount of terrain Sugarbush has blown at Mt Ellen also. Why again do they wait so late to open Ellen each year? Is it Lack of People? A state forest agreement? just curious.



Not exactly sure but i know it opens to racers as much earlier and they start making snow early on. It takes them a while to get top to bottom, but thats likely due to lack of aggression. I believe, 33% or more of there snowmaking capacity is there.


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## slatham (Nov 24, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> Thanks Shadyjay.  Glad to see such a good start from previous years.  What's amazing about the start is the amount of terrain Sugarbush has blown at Mt Ellen also. Why again do they wait so late to open Ellen each year? Is it Lack of People? A state forest agreement? just curious.



This is demand based, not permits etc. Majority of skiers from the metropolitan areas don't ski much pre-Christmas.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 24, 2017)

I skied the afternoon shift today.  Seems like everyone was on Steins, best run for me was top half of Organgrinder.  Freeze/thaw over the past week has left  a firm base and skied of trails by 3 PM.  Pleased to see multiple top to bottom skiing options.  I can't recall Steins being open this early for as long as I have been skiing at Sugarbush.


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## shadyjay (Nov 25, 2017)

slatham said:


> This is demand based, not permits etc. Majority of skiers from the metropolitan areas don't ski much pre-Christmas.



Pretty much, from what I gather.  GMVS will train on Inverness before the mountain opens to the public, but the demand isn't there for two separate (but connected) ski areas to be open before the holidays.


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## WinS (Nov 25, 2017)

Just realized that SkiMRV is done and this is where people are posting.  My New Year's resolution is not to debate those who think they know a lot about snowmaking.  I have confidence in my mountain team and what they are doing so we will stay to the facts and not get into subjective debating on this subject.

Ever since we put in the new Valley House chair we always wanted to try to open Snowball and Spring Fling first as we think this is a much better opening than on Downspout and Jester.  We had nearly 72 hour of sufficiently cold temperatures to do this.  We had also earlier been making snow up on Jester, Downspout and Organgrinder but chose to move all the capacity to Snowball/Spring Fling and Stein's rather than to connect down from Heaven's Gate.  Once we had them in and got the temps down low again moved to Lower Downspout, Jester and Coffee Run and got those open on Friday.  This is the most early terrain we have had in my memory by Thanksgiving.  The new Low E guns (SnoLogic and HKD) are allowing us to max out at 3,800 GPM at LP and another 2,000 + at ME.

Over at ME we have essentially completed snowmaking on Rim Run, Elbow and Inverness and were making on Which Way and Straight Shot.  Inverness in 26 acres so it take over 10 million gallons of water to get in open for race training.  GMVS will begin there next week. And we will continue moving down the mountain. 

 Shady Jay is correct.  The demand does not justify opening ME until Christmas week and we use it until then for the GMVS academy, weekend programs and some of our own Ski & Ride training and that keeps those groups off the trails at ME.

Warm today but getting cooler tonight through Monday night, so we will be staying down low and  refreshing and adding depth to a number of the LP  trails already open. It looks like later in the week we will only be able to make snow higher on the mountain.  We have set up Ripcord for that and we  have foot packed Spillsville so that when some natural snow comes in we will be ready to get that Open too.

Yesterday, Stein's was a real treat.  It set up over night and hopefully the sun that is shining will soften it us again as the day goes on.

One final fact on snowmaking.  We  have already put out 28%-30% of the total gallons we normally do in an entire season and have opened around 85 acres for skiing and riding - including Inverness but not the other trails that are covered at ME.  That is way more that in any previous year.

Nice to be back and have 10 days of skiing in already.


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2017)

Welcome back Win. Shame the SkiMRV forum is down, but glad you found your way over here. Thanks for the update! I can't wait to get up there in another week or so.


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## slatham (Nov 25, 2017)

WinS said:


> Just realized that SkiMRV is done and this is where people are posting.  My New Year's resolution is not to debate those who think they know a lot about snowmaking.  I have confidence in my mountain team and what they are doing so we will stay to the facts and not get into subjective debating on this subject.
> 
> Ever since we put in the new Valley House chair we always wanted to try to open Snowball and Spring Fling first as we think this is a much better opening than on Downspout and Jester.  We had nearly 72 hour of sufficiently cold temperatures to do this.  We had also earlier been making snow up on Jester, Downspout and Organgrinder but chose to move all the capacity to Snowball/Spring Fling and Stein's rather than to connect down from Heaven's Gate.  Once we had them in and got the temps down low again moved to Lower Downspout, Jester and Coffee Run and got those open on Friday.  This is the most early terrain we have had in my memory by Thanksgiving.  The new Low E guns (SnoLogic and HKD) are allowing us to max out at 3,800 GPM at LP and another 2,000 + at ME.
> 
> ...



Thanks Win, always good to hear from you. It was frustrating with Skimrv being down as you have been an active and open participant in that forum. I happen to agree with you - if there is only time/tempt for one route down, I would prefer SB to SF vs. Jester to DS. It's just a little unusual to have the benefit of good temps down low before the summit area can be completed. But that is a good thing!


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## benski (Nov 26, 2017)

Win now that you are posting here I will bring up a topic from a couple weeks ago. We were concerned the snowmaking pond is not big enough and a lot of us think the water pumping capacity could use to be increased. Any thoughts on these two ideas?


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## WinS (Nov 26, 2017)

benski said:


> Win now that you are posting here I will bring up a topic from a couple weeks ago. We were concerned the snowmaking pond is not big enough and a lot of us think the water pumping capacity could use to be increased. Any thoughts on these two ideas?



The pond is not the issue relating to capacity. It is the size of the snowmaking pipe around the mountain.  To increase what we have now we would have to increase the diameter of the snowmaking pipe and then install some more pumping capacity.  That is a major undertaking and very expensive but something we have in mind do do over time. At some point we would also like to have another pond as insurance in case we have a serious drought and can not refill from the river for awhile or if we have a devasting flood like Irene which  takes out the pond.

Our Pond old approximately 25 million gallons and we refill it from the Mad River. There is not limit on what we can withdraw from November 1st until Match 31st, but the river has to be flowing at the February mean level which is approximately 41 CFS (cubic feet per second).  At Mount Ellen we draw from two sources.  The draw from the stream across from the Fayston School and the pond next to the Inverness lift.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2017)

Good to know replacing the on-mountain pipe to support increased capacity as well as having an "insurance" pond are both at least on the long range radar.

Is the USGS discharge data at the Mooretown Mad River data station a good source of flow info for the Mad River? If so, looks like CFS has been pretty much over 100 since late October this year (most of the time well over 100CFS).


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## mikec142 (Nov 27, 2017)

Win,

Thanks so much for chiming in here.  I love it.  It reinforces that special feeling I get from Sugarbush and the Mad River Valley.  My family and I are from New Jersey, but if asked, I would say that Sugarbush is my home mountain even though it's 5.5 hours from my house.  I'm looking forward to a great season.

Mike


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## tumbler (Nov 27, 2017)

I wish they were expanding terrain with the current snowmaking window.  Ripcord would be nice and Lower OG & Lower Jester to start mid mountain.


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I wish they were expanding terrain with the current snowmaking window.  Ripcord would be nice and Lower OG & Lower Jester to start mid mountain.



Just keep in mind it is still only November and we're already ahead of where we are many years at this time in terms of number of open trails. On November 28th the following # of trails were open: 2011 - 0, 2012 - 8, 2013 - 7, 2014 - 10, 2015 - 4, 2016 - 8.

I don't have a problem with re-surfacing and building some depth now to help keep those trails that are currently open in good shape instead of expanding too quickly and risking having trails too thin to stand up to some weather variation.


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## shadyjay (Nov 28, 2017)

We had a great night last night, making some severely large piles on the route from the bottom of HG to the base area, both via Gondolier and Coffee Run, as well as on First Time.  Amazing what single digits and zero wind will do in only a matter of 4 hours.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2017)

I see from the afternoon snow report that Ripcord is up next on the snowmaking schedule once temps drop back down!


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I wish they were expanding terrain with the current snowmaking window.  Ripcord would be nice and Lower OG & Lower Jester to start mid mountain.



The window was not enough to complete Ripcord before it warmed up so it made sense to refresh the lower mountain which was not complete when you had cold temps down low. The rest of the week will require that we stay high so we have Tipcord set up and ready to go.


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## bill-now (Nov 29, 2017)

WinS said:


> The rest of the week will require that we stay high so we have Tipcord set up and ready to go.



Yea, I've Tipped over on Ripcord a bunch of times.

Maybe this alternative name will stick as in "Downspout = Deathspout"


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 29, 2017)

WinS said:


> The rest of the week will require that we stay high



Remember to stay hydrated.


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## WinS (Nov 29, 2017)

bill-now said:


> Yea, I've Tipped over on Ripcord a bunch of times.
> 
> Maybe this alternative name will stick as in "Downspout = Deathspout"



HA! My fingers are too big for the iPhone!


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## spring_mountain_high (Nov 29, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Remember to stay hydrated.



sage advice from the tuna


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## Cornhead (Nov 30, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Remember to stay hydrated.


And eat a lot of fiber.[emoji6]

Sent from my Moto G (4) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## rocks860 (Nov 30, 2017)

Trying to trade for a week at our timeshare up at eagles and the only thing available for the moment is 1/27-2/3. I was up last year mid March and got super lucky for that huge storm but any thoughts on whether this should be a decent week? I can’t remember what it was like last January last year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HowieT2 (Nov 30, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Trying to trade for a week at our timeshare up at eagles and the only thing available for the moment is 1/27-2/3. I was up last year mid March and got super lucky for that huge storm but any thoughts on whether this should be a decent week? I can’t remember what it was like last January last year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



that's superbowl weekend.  I like it.  sparse crowds and usually coming out of the january thaw.


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## shadyjay (Dec 1, 2017)

Wednesday night, in addition to Ripcord, we were fired up on Murphy's, Lower Jester (from Carpy's Corner, down to Castlerock cutoff), and Lower OG (from the last Lower Jester cross-cut, down).  So mid mountain is a work-in-progress, when temps permit.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 2, 2017)

December 2nd and Ripcord and Spillsville were open and a lot of fun and Organgrinder in great shape.  Unfortunately you have to ski Downspout...


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2017)

Really hard to complain about Ripcord, OG, Jester, Stein's, and Spring Fling all being open by December 2nd...looking forward to finally getting up there this week


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## djd66 (Dec 2, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> December 2nd and Ripcord and Spillsville were open and a lot of fun and Organgrinder in great shape.  Unfortunately you have to ski Downspout...



Yep, for Dec 2nd - to have all this terrain open is very impressive.  I have to say, I love the new style guns. They are super quiet and put down some nice snow.

I am also a big fan of the RFID system. Works like a charm,... just wish they were placed 20' further back as I already witnessed people having issues and groups getting split up.  Not much of a major issue today, but will be with a full corral.


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Yep, for Dec 2nd - to have all this terrain open is very impressive.  I have to say, I love the new style guns. They are super quiet and put down some nice snow.
> 
> I am also a big fan of the RFID system. Works like a charm,... just wish they were placed 20' further back as I already witnessed people having issues and groups getting split up.  Not much of a major issue today, but will be with a full corral.



They really have to be that far back. If someone has an invalid pass we need room to exit that person. We looked at other installations and spoke to those who have had the gates and this seemed like the best set-up.


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2017)

Really cannot complain about what is open for first weekend in December.  As they said in the snow report he earlire the better because it get skied off quick.  Ripcord was nice Saturday, not so much Sunday.  Very wet snow, hopefully it doesn't freeze solid.  RFID gates are great as long as passes are in correct spot.  The coral at Bravo needs some management with the singles line and the alternating but hopefully that will happen as the season picks up.


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## xwhaler (Dec 4, 2017)

When do Mt Ellen $30 Thursdays go into effect? The website shows 1/4 as the first one so I am to assume nothing in December?


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## WWF-VT (Dec 4, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> When do Mt Ellen $30 Thursdays go into effect? The website shows 1/4 as the first one so I am to assume nothing in December?



Correct - December 28th is holiday/peak pricing


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## Hawk (Dec 4, 2017)

Ripcord and Spills were really nice on Saturday.  I really don't know what happened on Sunday to Ripcord.  I don't know if they lost pressure or the temps warmed up but I wish they shut the guns down before it happened.  We were the first down and some of the guns felt like straight water.  It's not going to matter after the challenging weather over the next 72 hours.  Hopefully we get some snow after that.  The forecast is mildly optimistic.


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## djd66 (Dec 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Ripcord and Spills were really nice on Saturday.  I really don't know what happened on Sunday to Ripcord.  I don't know if they lost pressure or the temps warmed up but I wish they shut the guns down before it happened.  We were the first down and some of the guns felt like straight water.  It's not going to matter after the challenging weather over the next 72 hours.  Hopefully we get some snow after that.  The forecast is mildly optimistic.



It was really warm, i was surprised they were able to blow  snow.  At this point in the season - who cares what they blow - just build some base - which is what i think they were doing.

My only issue with Ripcord was the exit to downspout - it sucked!

I love that the new guns sound like an small aerosol can, rather than a high pressure air gun. You can actually hold a conversation while riding the lift.

the amount of terrain open for 1st weekend in December is amazing!


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Ripcord and Spills were really nice on Saturday.  I really don't know what happened on Sunday to Ripcord.  I don't know if they lost pressure or the temps warmed up but I wish they shut the guns down before it happened.  We were the first down and some of the guns felt like straight water.  It's not going to matter after the challenging weather over the next 72 hours.  Hopefully we get some snow after that.  The forecast is mildly optimistic.



It warmed up pretty quickly I think.  Last I looked late night Saturday it was 22 and when I woke up early it was 27 at the summit.  Could also tell it was getting warm by the amount of water/grease dripping off the sheaves.  They should give you a poncho for that, the middle seat looked like a mechanic by the time we got to the top.  Watched the snowmakers do a gun run on Saturday from the lift and they weren't checking snow quality, just sledding down the trail.  There were a few in there running pretty wet that I had to stop and clean the goggles off.  Oh well, it is what it is.


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## Hawk (Dec 4, 2017)

djd66 said:


> It was really warm, i was surprised they were able to blow  snow.  At this point in the season - who cares what they blow - just build some base - which is what i think they were doing.
> 
> My only issue with Ripcord was the exit to downspout - it sucked!
> 
> ...


I don't understand your thinking.  You care about how loud the guns are but don't care about the quality of the snow coming out of them.  That is just so contrary to what most people think.  Sorry I can not relate to what you are saying.


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## djd66 (Dec 4, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I don't understand your thinking.  You care about how loud the guns are but don't care about the quality of the snow coming out of them.  That is just so contrary to what most people think.  Sorry I can not relate to what you are saying.



Apparently you know what everyone thinks.  

Yep, my experience on the mountain is not about listening to a loud snow gun. To be honest, the quiet snow guns greatly improve my Mountain experience. I have to believe many people feel the say way - but I have never taken a survey.

As far as the quality of the snow being made - it was 30 degrees on Sunday - what were you expecting velvet powder??


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## Orca (Dec 4, 2017)

With Hawk on this one for sure. Quality of snow is paramount. High air content in the crystals is the elusive goal. Think about it this way: Any garden hose can put down a rink-like ice base. It is that which we'd prefer to avoid.


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## cdskier (Dec 4, 2017)

I enjoyed my first day out today. I lapped og, jester and spring fling so can't comment on ripcord's snow. The trails I skied were fine. I had no desire to ski bumps under guns in the marginal temp range this early in the season. I am still amazed how quiet the guns are every time I see them running, but I'd never consider that a factor I would care about. Loud or quiet doesn't matter to me. The snow quality is definitely more important. 

RFID was cool so far and worked fine for me. Granted it is midweek and no one is here. One minor criticism (and it could be my imagination), but I feel like the gates close too quickly. I seemed to feel a couple times like my poles almost got caught. I may just not have the timing down and am wasting too much time looking at the display instead of moving as soon as the gate opens. I'll have to stop staring at the display next time and see what happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Apparently you know what everyone thinks.
> 
> Yep, my experience on the mountain is not about listening to a loud snow gun. To be honest, the quiet snow guns greatly improve my Mountain experience. I have to believe many people feel the say way - but I have never taken a survey.
> 
> As far as the quality of the snow being made - it was 30 degrees on Sunday - what were you expecting velvet powder??



I didn't say I knew what everybody thinks.  I just know what the 100 or so people I know that were in the Castlerock were thinking.  These are the same people that ski every weekend with me.  You ask what I expect?  How about this, adjust the air water ratio or shut the guns off.  I understand that with the impending rain and temps it's a moot point now but on Sunday they basically rendered that trail useless.  We pay $800 for a product and I will be dammed if I just sit back and say, it's ok your doing your best.  That's like buying a car with a dent in it and saying its OK.  No one would stand for that.  And it is OK to question management about anything when you are a paying customer.  It's what keeps them on their toes.  All of the customer push back is what made them fix the lifts.  Now we have a good working lift system.


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2017)

You know what, if they came out and said "Hey we are sorry about the snow conditions on Ripchord but we are blowing any chance we get so we can build base depths.  This may result in heavy wet snow ski with caution".  Then at least they were honest.  Instead we get, the new guns are working famously blowing fine quality snow.  A much better product than before.  HA


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 5, 2017)

"Useless"??  Hmm, I usually got your back Hawk but I don't know if Ripcord was useless?  Then again, you have one of those fancy Early-Ups passes (very jealous) so yeah, the snow on Ripcord first thing Sunday morning was UGLY!!     

I vote to fire up the old Ratnik guns and pierce my eardrums!  The low E guns put out a clearly inferior product in marginal temps!


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## tumbler (Dec 5, 2017)

We got to HG just after 9 on Sunday, got on the chair and over half the line was full chairs.  I expected Ripcord to be looking like Downspout, like it did on Saturday.  I was looking forward to skiing some soft manmade.  I saw two people coming down, nobody else.  I think Patrol must have been at the top warning people of the conditions.  

My rule, esp at SB is that if a trail looks great but nobody is skiing it there is a reason why and I don't ski it.


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## djd66 (Dec 5, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I didn't say I knew what everybody thinks.  I just know what the 100 or so people I know that were in the Castlerock were thinking.  These are the same people that ski every weekend with me.  You ask what I expect?  How about this, adjust the air water ratio or shut the guns off.  I understand that with the impending rain and temps it's a moot point now but on Sunday they basically rendered that trail useless.  We pay $800 for a product and I will be dammed if I just sit back and say, it's ok your doing your best.  That's like buying a car with a dent in it and saying its OK.  No one would stand for that.  And it is OK to question management about anything when you are a paying customer.  It's what keeps them on their toes.  All of the customer push back is what made them fix the lifts.  Now we have a good working lift system.



Yep, you are right - you did not say you know what everyone thinks - this is what you said: "That is just so contrary to what most people think."  I guess "most" is not quite "everyone".  You ski with 100 people?   And you all hang out with you in CRP?   You must be the most well connected person at Sugarbush.  Funny I have never run into you.  Do you guys just sit around and complain all afternoon about the mountain?


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2017)

No just the snowmaking.  ;-)


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2017)

I love the RFID
I love the Trail system
I love the woods
I love the lifts
I love the new lodges
I love the community
I absolutely can not stand how they make snow, the new guns or their cooked up philosophy on making snow.

In an nut shell.


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## machski (Dec 5, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I love the RFID
> I love the Trail system
> I love the woods
> I love the lifts
> ...


He got all those goods leaving SR but lost the Snowmaking.  Damn, what a bum deal.

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## tumbler (Dec 5, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I love the RFID
> I love the Trail system
> I love the woods
> I love the lifts
> ...



Couldn't have said it better.  Pray for snow.


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## djd66 (Dec 5, 2017)

Cooked up philosophy?  Do you mean a sustainable business model?  Snowmaking costs a lot of money. They have a limited budget on what they can spend based on the amount of revenue the mountain can generate. Unlike most mountains, they need to run to completely separate mountains with 2 systems.  This is something that can not change unless you can convince the tree huggers to really connect North and South.  Is Win perfect, no. But IMHO, he runs the mountain very well with what he has.


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## dustyroads (Dec 6, 2017)

Good snow making article: https://freeskier.com/stories/mount-snow-making

p.s. don't care to ski Mount Snow. just liked the discussion on snow making.


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## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2017)

Brendan has given me some advice on one of our large projects, he is very sharp and as you can tell, very into it lol.


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## djd66 (Dec 6, 2017)

dustyroads said:


> Good snow making article: https://freeskier.com/stories/mount-snow-making
> 
> p.s. don't care to ski Mount Snow. just liked the discussion on snow making.



That was a very good article.  I would be curious to know what the annual snow making budget is for Mt Snow.  What do they spend on labor and what do they spend on energy consumption?


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## Hawk (Dec 6, 2017)

machski said:


> He got all those goods leaving SR but lost the Snowmaking.  Damn, what a bum deal.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Mach, I like getting crap from you.  Seeing that we all know the same people and you have never come up and said hi when I come around.  I will have to get MB to introduce us come this new years.  So considering I was there during the glory years when new terrain and snow making upgrades happened every year for about 10 years and also working there once, I think I know something about good snow making.  I guess I am spoiled.  But it is the one thing they lack.  If we had that then there would be no contest for being the best mountain in New England.  Everybody knows that the most important thing in the ski business is the product.  Snow is the product.  If you have that then the rest is just noise.


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## Orca (Dec 6, 2017)

Interesting last paragraph to snowmaking article:

"If it’s Christmas Eve and you need to get a key trail open that will ski well, but also handle the abuse of a holiday week, Randy Barrows is your guy. He’ll make the wet base-building snow while understanding the time it takes to put a layer of sweet, dry snow on top that will ski well in the morning. And he’ll do it without needing to groom it all."

This statement that there are _different_ qualities in blown snow is something that receives little attention in SB snowmaking discussions. What kind of snow is produced by the method of make huge whales, let them drain, and groom them out? I'd venture it is not "sweet, dry snow".


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## tumbler (Dec 6, 2017)

Temps are looking good with no warm up.  We'll get the production snow and let 's hope for the natural to fall on top.  I don't like the quality either but at least expanding terrain.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 6, 2017)

uhhhh, Hawk... did you and Terry change your names recently????

http://www.sugarbush.com/blog/stokeexchange/recovery-return/


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## machski (Dec 6, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Mach, I like getting crap from you.  Seeing that we all know the same people and you have never come up and said hi when I come around.  I will have to get MB to introduce us come this new years.  So considering I was there during the glory years when new terrain and snow making upgrades happened every year for about 10 years and also working there once, I think I know something about good snow making.  I guess I am spoiled.  But it is the one thing they lack.  If we had that then there would be no contest for being the best mountain in New England.  Everybody knows that the most important thing in the ski business is the product.  Snow is the product.  If you have that then the rest is just noise.


It's just funny Hawk, I skied SB quite a bit in the LBO holdings era.  At that time, I thought the Snowmaking wasn't bad at SB and while they didn't cover as much as quickly as SR, LBO had gotten it probably as close as he could considering the environmental and governmental hurdles SB has that SR does not.  I don't get to SB as much now and mostly go when they get the real goods so I can't really speak to their Snowmaking prowess day in and out.  I do ski SR a lot (we own there and I did try looking for you opening weekend but MB had some other obligations then too so our paths didn't cross) and while they have gotten much better using the Low E guns from the first year they had them, they are no replacement for the quality the SR7/14's produced day in and out.  They have done well with what the weather has given them, but I wouldn't call any of SR's snow making this year high quality non-wet.  Not that the temps have allowed for much else.  Hopefully we get real consistent cold all over New England by the end of the weekend or early next week.  When that comes in, I'll be interested to hear if you think SB man-made snow quality improves as I suspect SR's will.

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## rocks860 (Dec 6, 2017)

Switched my week so I’ll be up there 1/27-2/3


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2017)

I was away at a wedding for a few days so just got back to see what yesterday's rain did.  We had to delay opening a bit this morning.  The snow was too soft to groom last night so the groomers went out early today to do what they could.  The natural trails are done for now until we get some natural snow. Tonight the groomers will be double grooming most of the trails where we have made snow and as the temperatures have fallen we have turned the guns back on Ripcord, Murphy's, Lower Organgrinder and Lower Jester to get more terrain by the weekend.  Depending on how Stein's grooms out we may go back there for a touch up as well.  Over at ME we will be working on Northstar.  We had a pipe break on Mid-Flats so that has to be welded to resume on some other trails but that should be in a day.  Next week the temperatures are looking even colder so we will be moving snowmaking over to the Gatehouse side to let that open by the following weekend.


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## mikec142 (Dec 6, 2017)

Win,

Thanks for the update.  Please keep them coming.  Looking forward to skiing at SB over the holidays.


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2017)

Thanks win for the updates! Today was actually not too bad out all things considered (although growing up skiing the poconos may have prepared me well for conditions like today).  I was not at all surprised when I woke up and looked at the report and saw they decided they had to groom and delay opening.

A double groom on trails tonight should definitely make tomorrow closer to normal.


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## rocks860 (Dec 6, 2017)

Wow didn’t realize win was posting here now. Thanks for the update and keeping sugarbush my favorite place to ski. Been skiing there for ~32 of my almost 35 years 


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Wow didn’t realize win was posting here now. Thanks for the update and keeping sugarbush my favorite place to ski. Been skiing there for ~32 of my almost 35 years



Hah, he found his way here not too long ago after the skimrv forum never came back to life.

In other news I think the temp readings on sugarbush's website are stuck. I'm pretty sure they haven't changed since I woke up this morning and right now it is mid 20s at my condo while the website still says 34 at the base. My elevation is probably only a few hundred feet above the base.


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## slatham (Dec 7, 2017)

Use this as a sanity check on Sugarbush base temps:

https://www.wunderground.com/weather/us/vt/warren/KVTWARRE3

If you select the "Change" option you'll get a map with a bunch of other local stations. They all note the elevation of the station, and there's good data if you select the station - if you're into that kind of stuff.


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## WinS (Dec 7, 2017)

The groomers did a spectacular job last night and even got to Stein's.  (we did have one of the groomer's break down at the bottom of Stein's and had to be towed out so there was a bit of a mess low on skier's right but that will be fixed tonight. Our vehicle maintenance team has the groomer ready to go tonight too).  I did first tracks on Stein's followed by Snowball and Spring Fling, and experienced as nice a grooming job as you will find anywhere.  A few hours later it was more loose granular but still good skiing and riding.  Tonight we will groom everything open where we are not making snow so tomorrow (especially early) should be nice again, and I plan to start on Stein's.

Snowmaking continues on Ripcord and the top especially is coming in very nice. The guns were running wetter nearer the base as temperatures came up but they are going down again.   We will likely turn off there and Murphy's tomorrow and start to move elsewhere.  I think we will turn on Stein's again Friday night and continue into Saturday to get some fresh snow and build up some moguls as well as starting to move over to the Gatehouse side to get more beginner and intermediate terrain open by next weekend.  Over at ME we are also focusing on completing the trip to the bottom so that we can also take advantage of some really good temps next week to get the terrain park snow started.

We did get an inch of snow, and it is amazing what even a little amount does to the quality of the experience when groomed in with snow making.  Hopefully, the cold temperatures over the warm waters on the Lakes will continue to send some clippers our way. That is what we say starting this week last year when we recorded 100 inches of snow by the new year.

Our snow reporter accidentally hit an override button which turned off the feed to the thermometers.  It is corrected now.

Some facts on the SnoLogic guns.  Unlike some other manufacturers, they run at a constant 8 cubic feet per minute (CFM). Some have 4 stages and others have 6. The lowest stage is used when temperatures are at the highest level to make snow (around 28-29 wetbulb). At that stage they put out 15 gallons per minute (GPM).  As the temperatures go down the stages are adjusted.  They smaller land guns have the 4 stages and range from 15-50 GPM.  The six stage towers and guns range from 15-90 GPM.


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## cdskier (Dec 7, 2017)

I was wondering what exactly happened low on steins in that area. Other than that area the rest of steins was quite nice and much better than I expected. I enjoyed everything that I skied today. If I had to pick a least favorite, probably downspout. Not sure why but it just seemed a bit chunky and firm even from first thing this morning. Everything else was groomed very nicely.

Thanks for getting the temps on the website fixed too. I love being able to see the temps at 3 different elevations on the mountain. 


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 9, 2017)

Absolutely amazing job resurfacing Stein's last night!!   About 3 or inches of perfect gunpowder.  Was certainly receiving a lot of compliments from the faithful.  Got to give credit where it is due!


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 11, 2017)

My first weekend out this year; Stowe Saturday and Sugarbush Sunday. The amount of man made on some of the trails at SB was unbelievable!  Huge whales on Murphys, middle & lower Organgrinder as well as Ripcord were some of the largest I've seen there in years.  Snow was silky soft and the usual suspects such as Snowball, Upper Grinder, Jester etc all skied well with mostly mid winter typical conditions.  Downspout and upper Steins were scratchy, but mid way down Steins, hard skiers left was sweet.  Crowds were manageable and dropped of considerably after lunch.  Win was out and about talking with folks in the lodge and in line which is always great to see the personal touch.


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## tumbler (Dec 11, 2017)

So what's the plan, what's going to open next?  Looks like all Gatehouse side snowmaking now?  Understand for the beginners.  Is all of Lower OG done?  Birdland?- that's a quickie.  I would expect a sizable crowd this weekend.


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## djd66 (Dec 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> So what's the plan, what's going to open next?  Looks like all Gatehouse side snowmaking now?  Understand for the beginners.  Is all of Lower OG done?  Birdland?- that's a quickie.  I would expect a sizable crowd this weekend.



Next weekend is the first weekend for programs - so it will be more crowded for sure.  Lets hope we get north of 20" this week and that will help open up even some natural trails.  I am guessing by the end of the week - Gatehouse side of the Mtn will be in full swing.


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2017)

tumbler said:


> So what's the plan, what's going to open next?  Looks like all Gatehouse side snowmaking now?  Understand for the beginners.  Is all of Lower OG done?  Birdland?- that's a quickie.  I would expect a sizable crowd this weekend.



Lower og below murphys is done. From that point up to ds is under the guns now. Still a section of middle jester that hasn't had any snowmaking yet. Lower snowball/racers edge and bird land would be all that's left on the main mountain I think after that. The cold temps this week should help them make great progress on gatehouse to help spread out crowds a bit.


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## Hawk (Dec 12, 2017)

sugarbushskier said:


> My first weekend out this year; Stowe Saturday and Sugarbush Sunday. The amount of man made on some of the trails at SB was unbelievable!  Huge whales on Murphys, middle & lower Organgrinder as well as Ripcord were some of the largest I've seen there in years.  Snow was silky soft and the usual suspects such as Snowball, Upper Grinder, Jester etc all skied well with mostly mid winter typical conditions.  Downspout and upper Steins were scratchy, but mid way down Steins, hard skiers left was sweet.  Crowds were manageable and dropped of considerably after lunch.  Win was out and about talking with folks in the lodge and in line which is always great to see the personal touch.



What was Stowe like?  I heard they have a ton open.  I skied sugarbush both Saturday and Sunday mornings.  It was pretty good all things considered.  Murphys and Lower OG opened and that was pretty fun.  Guns swapped over to Pushover and Slow Poke on the GH side on Sunday.  I would think they would be in good condition by the weekend.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Lower og below murphys is done. From that point up to ds is under the guns now. Still a section of middle jester that hasn't had any snowmaking yet. Lower snowball/racers edge and bird land would be all that's left on the main mountain I think after that. The cold temps this week should help them make great progress on gatehouse to help spread out crowds a bit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Lower og is now open via the lower jester entrance off ds. Guns have moved to domino chute and the last section of middle jester. Gondolier is open with whales. Ropes were dropped again on spillsville as well as upper bird land. Birdland was pretty nice with the natural snow today. Seemed like it was snowing harder from top of bravo down than it was higher up heavens gate today. Just got back to my condo after my legs said enough for today. Still coming down pretty good outside.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> .
> 
> Thanks for getting the temps on the website fixed too. I love being able to see the temps at 3 different elevations on the mountain.
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I know its not real close to the Bush but I use the Mt Washington Observatory current summit conditions page for diffferent elevation temps.For me its pretty close to Cannon and has 6 different elevation temps from 1600 to 6200 feet.On their Mesonet link it has a thermo on top of Cannon,Wildcat,BW,and Cranmore among others.
https://www.mountwashington.org/experience-the-weather/current-summit-conditions.aspx


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## Orca (Dec 12, 2017)

I just took a look at the snow reports for Stowe and Jay. Both have more terrain open, with Stowe having an astounding 77 of 115 trails open. The season snow totals tell the story: 57 and 84 inches of snow for Stowe and Jay, respectively. That is over two and three times the 25 inches Sugarbush has received. Luck of the weather pattern. Let's hope the storms shift south a bit for us!


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## tumbler (Dec 12, 2017)

Orca said:


> I just took a look at the snow reports for Stowe and Jay. Both have more terrain open, with Stowe having an astounding 77 of 115 trails open. The season snow totals tell the story: 57 and 84 inches of snow for Stowe and Jay, respectively. That is over two and three times the 25 inches Sugarbush has received. Luck of the weather pattern. Let's hope the storms shift south a bit for us!



Stowe is more aggressive with the snowmaking and not staying on a trail for a week.  We need the upslope machine to kick in.


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## benski (Dec 12, 2017)

Any one else having trouble with Sugarbush's webcams? Its seems when I try on my mac OS laptop with everything fully updated can't run it becouse of some Sugarbush.com specific issue that prevents flash from running. Happens with Chrome and Safari.


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## mbedle (Dec 12, 2017)

benski said:


> Any one else having trouble with Sugarbush's webcams? Its seems when I try on my mac OS laptop with everything fully updated can't run it becouse of some Sugarbush.com specific issue that prevents flash from running. Happens with Chrome and Safari.



Benski, its doing the same thing for me and I already have flash enabled on their site. I check the site and it appears that the flash file is not loadings with a timeout error.


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## Orca (Dec 12, 2017)

benski said:


> Any one else having trouble with Sugarbush's webcams? Its seems when I try on my mac OS laptop with everything fully updated can't run it becouse of some Sugarbush.com specific issue that prevents flash from running. Happens with Chrome and Safari.



Same problem for me. Looks like the problem is on the site side.


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## benski (Dec 12, 2017)

Chrome is telling me its blocked next too the URL but it is in the settings its enameled.


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## tumbler (Dec 12, 2017)

I have been using the app instead, works much better for the cameras.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I have been using the app instead, works much better for the cameras.



The cam was down briefly but fixed and up. Be careful of trail counts. Acreage is more reflective and our plan is to complete trails rather than dust and run. Also remember we are full blast at ME so on 12/22 you will see a huge jump in trails and acreage open. We have already put out 60% of gallons we normally do in an entire season. And yes, the snow has been more at Stowe and Jay. We benefitted in December last year but we are all getting good December totals.

Completing snowmaking on Domino Chutes and upper part of lower Jester. Then just have Birdland, Lower Snowball and Race’s edge to complete on Bravo side. We are curtailed for a few hours tomorrow evening so when we shut down will assess where to turn back on. Gatehouse side is going really well. For the weekend will have at least groomed Pushover, Slowepoke, Sugar Bear Road, Lower Hot Shot and maybe more. Natural that opened today included Upper Birdland, Spillsville. Tomorrow may have Paradise (foot packed it today) and Domino. I said maybe because it depends on what we get overnight. I think if winds allow I will go up Ripcord first thing.

At ME we will next fill in Cruiser and touch up upper mountain and then go to terrain park which requires a lot of snow to build good features.

Weather pattern is looking good for next ten days.

&#55357;&#56846;


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## benski (Dec 13, 2017)

Win, Have you ever though of marking all the trails that you have finished making snow on at Mount Ellen as reserved for racing, or keeping a tally in the snow report of trails that are ready to open on the 22nd.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 13, 2017)

benski said:


> Win, Have you ever though of marking all the trails that you have finished making snow on at Mount Ellen as reserved for racing, or keeping a tally in the snow report of trails that are ready to open on the 22nd.


I agree.  With Ellen opening this weekend and with the new natural snow.  Sugarbush should put on their website at the end of the day  what they anticipate opening this weekend.  My guess is 50+ trails 250 acres for the weekend.


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## tumbler (Dec 13, 2017)

Mt Ellen doesnt open until next weekend, which from what I recall seems a week later than usual.


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## Hawk (Dec 13, 2017)

benski said:


> Win, Have you ever though of marking all the trails that you have finished making snow on at Mount Ellen as reserved for racing, or keeping a tally in the snow report of trails that are ready to open on the 22nd.



Why would they do that?  That would appear as false reporting to get the trail count and acreage up.  The amount of trails open is what it is.  Now one really cares that there are trails ready to go and not open and quite frankly the Mt. Ellen skier are already chomping at the bit.  This will just aggravate them more.


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## Hawk (Dec 13, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I agree.  With Ellen opening this weekend and with the new natural snow.  Sugarbush should put on their website at the end of the day  what they anticipate opening this weekend.  My guess is 50+ trails 250 acres for the weekend.



Mt Ellen is not opening this weekend.  It is next weekend or Friday the 22nd.


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## tumbler (Dec 13, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Why would they do that?  That would appear as false reporting to get the trail count and acreage up.  The amount of trails open is what it is.  Now one really cares that there are trails ready to go and not open and quite frankly the Mt. Ellen skier are already chomping at the bit.  This will just aggravate them more.



They have both Inverness trail and lift counting on the open terrain.  Like I posted earlier, things seem to be a week later this year, Mt Ellen, VH Lodge, Wunderbar, Rumbles for lunch.  I think this weekend is going to be very crowded but I guess you never know with people needing to do Xmas shopping.


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## Hawk (Dec 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> They have both Inverness trail and lift counting on the open terrain.  Like I posted earlier, things seem to be a week later this year, Mt Ellen, VH Lodge, Wunderbar, Rumbles for lunch.  I think this weekend is going to be very crowded but I guess you never know with people needing to do Xmas shopping.


 That lift is open and they are skiing that trail.  I do not have an issue with that one trail.  But no one is supposed to be skiing the rest of the trails over there.  With the opening of gate house this weekend and lessons starting, I think they will be fine.  This weekend is typically light and for the reason you hinted on above.  BTW - this is one of my favorite times to ski.  Mostly just the same crew of pass holders that are committed to ski.


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## slatham (Dec 13, 2017)

I am obviously not paying attention to the official communication.....but I too (in my gut based on previous years) assumed ME would open this weekend. I do not recall it ever opening for the first time on Christmas weekend? I have no skin in the game this weekend, but its a shame all that snow is not being skied this weekend.


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## Hawk (Dec 13, 2017)

Oh, believe me it will be skied.  Just not by lift access.


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2017)

slatham said:


> I am obviously not paying attention to the official communication.....but I too (in my gut based on previous years) assumed ME would open this weekend. I do not recall it ever opening for the first time on Christmas weekend? I have no skin in the game this weekend, but its a shame all that snow is not being skied this weekend.



I think a lot has to do with when Christmas falls. This year it is Monday so the weekend right before it is still the weekend before Christmas. Last year it fell on a Sunday so the weekend "before" Christmas was earlier.

And I completely agree with hawk that there's no way they should list any of the trails that are ready at Ellen in the report. They aren't open so they dont count until the mountain actually opens. At that point we'll see a significant jump in trail count and acreage just like we always do.

Back to skiing itself. I was surprised how crowded it was this morning. I guess more people than I expected took off. Although the crowds disappeared fast. Seemed like a lot of people only took a few runs and left. The main lot was pretty empty at a little after 1 when I called it quits. Skiing was very nice today. Ripcord to lower paradise early was beautiful.  I hit domino pretty early too and that was great as well.

I'm still amazed how many people were poaching closed trails though. Lower snowball was completely tracked up. When I came down snowball I thought it was open by how much it looked like it had been skied. Then I saw the rope still across it as I got closer. Quite a few people were on lower birdland too even though it was closed. Ski patrol at sugarbush is very aggressive with trail opening so I really don't understand why people still choose to duck ropes.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2017)

people duck ropes to ski powder. why is this such a hard concept. and 9 out of 10 times in the east, it's fine to do. fortune favors the bold.


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## Hawk (Dec 13, 2017)

If I was there today I would have been one of those people.  In general all of my local friends ski early on power days midweek and then go to work late and work late.  That is the usual MOP.


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## tumbler (Dec 13, 2017)

I'll let others poach lower birdland but lower snowball absolutely


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## HowieT2 (Dec 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I'll let others poach lower birdland but lower snowball absolutely



agreed, unless im using someone else's skis.

fwiw-last december sugarbush killed it with the snow, this year, not so much. Stowe/jay have gotten so much more snow. Ullr is saving it up for us for the holidays.


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## tumbler (Dec 14, 2017)

Mad River hitting their scheduled opening, a week before Mt Ellen. So much wasted terrain.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Mad River hitting their scheduled opening, a week before Mt Ellen. So much wasted terrain.



Mt Ellen is under utilized all season by the vast majority of Sugarbush skiers so what does another week matter before it opens.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 14, 2017)

If I were to tally my ski days at SB it would be Mt Ellen 70% and Lincoln Peak 30%.  Love the quiet vibe and terrain at North!


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## Orca (Dec 14, 2017)

WinS said:


> The cam was down briefly but fixed and up.



Except that the webcams are still not streaming correctly via the website.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2017)

exterminator woods may be the best skiing at sugarbush.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen is under utilized all season by the vast majority of Sugarbush skiers so what does another week matter before it opens.



I'm content with it staying that way for the most part. It is great to ski Ellen on Saturdays mid winter when Lincoln is packed. It has terrific terrain, minimal crowds, and snow that doesn't get tracked out as quickly as Lincoln. Why more people don't ski there is beyond me, but I'm glad they don't.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## djd66 (Dec 14, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen is under utilized all season by the vast majority of Sugarbush skiers so what does another week matter before it opens.



+1  completely agree.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 14, 2017)

Orca said:


> Except that the webcams are still not streaming correctly via the website.



I too still cant see any cams.About a week now.


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## Rothski (Dec 14, 2017)

Wish the cams were more engaging with a focus on the mountain and trails as opposed to the bottoms of lifts. Don’t bother to look anynmore. Too bad, the mountain is so beautiful. Ex, why can’t the Castlerock Cam provide a view like my avatar?


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## teleo (Dec 14, 2017)

They are like that so you can see the lift line.  Very functional to see if cr line loops around and you don't want to head over there. Works very well the way they are.


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## WinS (Dec 14, 2017)

Will try to answer several things.  We do include a trail like Inverness when it is being used. It has an “R” next to it when reserved for racing as it is now.

We have being announcing since Spring the date of ME’s opening which has been the weekend before Christmas. Friday 12/22 is the date.
We will start to indicate is the snowreporting verbiage what we expect to have opened. We have moved all the production to the terrain park and then Cliffs and Cruiser which are the only trails other that Northway and Brambles to finish.

The Gatehouse and Village lifts will run this weekend and expect to have all trails but Village, Out to Lunch, Sleeper and Sleeper Road open. All groomed by Saturday other than Upper Hot Shot and Waterfall. They will have some nice whales to ski in with grooming maybe Saturday night.

We will be snowmaking on Lower Snowball and Racer’s edge over the weekend. All towers over there so skiing under them should be fun. We might also be about to get on Sleeper and then it is up to North Lynx so we have that by Christmas. We also need to do Birdland and then we will have covered every trail with snowmaking. 

Now a word about skinning. We support it but only if people are going to follow the rules. We are not allowing it now for everyone’s safety. We have equipment on the hill and there could be a serious injury. Having people skin up a trail while we have a winch cat working it really STUPID. It that cable were to snap you can imagine what would happen. It is also very unfair to our operators who do not want to see anyone injured. Hawk is correct about closed trails. Patrol is aggressive and only going to drop a rope if they feel it is safe. We will pull passes if patrol sees poachers. Please don’t let a few spoil this for the many.


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## WinS (Dec 14, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> I too still cant see any cams.About a week now.



They are working. Try refreshing your browser


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 14, 2017)

Sugarbush is the only place that tries to hype skiing on snowmaking whales.


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## BushMogulMaster (Dec 14, 2017)

WinS said:


> Now a word about skinning. We support it but only if people are going to follow the rules. We are not allowing it now for everyone’s safety. We have equipment on the hill and there could be a serious injury. Having people skin up a trail while we have a winch cat working it really STUPID. It that cable were to snap you can imagine what would happen. It is also very unfair to our operators who do not want to see anyone injured. Hawk is correct about closed trails. Patrol is aggressive and only going to drop a rope if they feel it is safe. We will pull passes if patrol sees poachers. Please don’t let a few spoil this for the many.



Glad you brought that up, Win. It's become a problem industry-wide, and we as an industry need to do everything we can to educate uphillers about why certain areas or times are off-limits. It's for skiers' safety, ultimately. And as you rightly point out, it really is unfair and discourteous to operators, on a number of levels. I've personally had my winch cable skied over when it was tensioned and buried (at Sugarbush, no less!). One of the scariest and unnerving things an operator can experience. I've also had skinners show up right behind me while doing dozing projects, and I've had skiers riding almost on my tiller comb. Yes, uphilling is awesome. Night-time turns are great, and earning your turns is rewarding. And most ski resorts are embracing it. But please show some deference toward the people who work so hard to provide the skiing experience, and follow whatever few rules the resort chooses to make.


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## Orca (Dec 15, 2017)

WinS said:


> They are working. Try refreshing your browser



I might not be so sure about that one. Reminds me of: Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2017)

They are working on my computer in both internet explorer and Chrome


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2017)

It is working on both my iPhone and iPad when I look at both the web and the app using both chrome and explorer. Very often refreshing the browser is the solution or reboot.


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Sugarbush is the only place that tries to hype skiing on snowmaking whales.



My wife loves swimming with the whales and I like skiing them


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## benski (Dec 15, 2017)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



WinS said:


> It is working on both my iPhone and iPad when I look at both the web and the app using both chrome and explorer. Very often refreshing the browser is the solution or reboot.



Tried all that, reinstalling flash. No luck. I tried Safari and chrome on Mac OS. All the latest version. Its only sugarbush.com that's having issues.


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## mbedle (Dec 15, 2017)

benski said:


> Tried all that, reinstalling flash. No luck. I tried Safari and chrome on Mac OS. All the latest version. Its only sugarbush.com that's having issues.



Mine was not working the last couple of days, but this morning they are up and running in safari. Try deleting you cache and see if that helps (safari, Clear History...)


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2017)

well at sugarbush you generally don't need to poach because they tend to have a pretty liberal rope dropping policy. mark the top clearly "thin cover, experts only, really, think about it", and let the people have at it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2017)

If it's closed at Sugarbush its probably not skiable.  that has been my experience.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 15, 2017)

WinS said:


> They are working. Try refreshing your browser


I now see a static pic but no streaming even after refreshing.Maybe its on my end.


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> well at sugarbush you generally don't need to poach because they tend to have a pretty liberal rope dropping policy. mark the top clearly "thin cover, experts only, really, think about it", and let the people have at it.



Which is all the more reason why it bothers me seeing people poaching at Sugarbush.



jimmywilson69 said:


> If it's closed at Sugarbush its probably not skiable.  that has been my experience.



I think this week a few of the trails that they didn't drop the ropes on yet was more of a situation where patrol just didn't have a chance yet to check them and mark potential hazards. For example Moonshine/Twist/Lower Moonshine opened I want to say Thursday (although possibly late Wednesday after I left). There wasn't really much more snow Thursday (or even Wednesday afternoon) compared to say Wednesday morning, but there were several waterbars that Patrol marked before they opened it. On Lower Moonshine they also diverted people completely away from the very bottom and had them cut through a small path through the woods back over to Spring Fling.

My take is to have some patience and let patrol do their jobs and have respect for their decisions. It really isn't going to kill you if you wait a few hours or even a couple extra days to ski a trail once patrol officially drops the ropes.

On a side-note, the HKD towers on lower snowball were pumping out incredibly dry snow this morning...although of course it was around 10 degrees out at the time. Not a single "flake" stuck to my jacket or goggles. The fan gun at the bottom of Racer's Edge/Spring Fling I can't say the same thing about though...that snow wasn't as nice as what was coming out of the HKDs. Too bad we don't have temps like that all the time...those low e guns really excel in those conditions.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 15, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They are working on my computer in both internet explorer and Chrome



Working in Firefox 57.0.2


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2017)

benski said:


> Tried all that, reinstalling flash. No luck. I tried Safari and chrome on Mac OS. All the latest version. Its only sugarbush.com that's having issues.



We looked into this further and it does appears that for some unknown reason a number of browsers were having difficulty opening the cams. Working with out vendors we think we have this solved. We think it may have been related to either Flash or Windows updates. If it is not working tomorrow, send me an email.wsmith@sugarbush.com. Sorry for the inconvenience, benski.


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## djd66 (Dec 15, 2017)

WinS said:


> We looked into this further and it does appears that for some unknown reason a number of browsers were having difficulty opening the cams. Working with out vendors we think we have this solved. We think it may have been related to either Flash or Windows updates. If it is not working tomorrow, send me an email.wsmith@sugarbush.com. Sorry for the inconvenience, benski.



For all the people on this site that bitch about pretty much everything- how can you complain about sugarbush and the current management?  This is a great example of how lucky we are to have an owner that is so engaged.  Thank you Win!


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2017)

Trail count tomorrow will be up to 59. Snowmaking overnight on Waterfall, Sleeper and Lower Snowball. Hiking over to Castlerock will be permitted and possibly up North Lynx. Will assess in am. Going to regular weekend hours with Bravo and Heaven’s Gate opening at 8am. Temps in the mid 20s and maybe a dusting overnight.


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2017)

Win is that new NoMad shack an expresso shack?????   If so that totally rules.  We have been asking for one of those for years after we experienced it at crystal mountain.  This makes me very happy.  :smile:


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2017)

djd66 said:


> For all the people on this site that bitch about pretty much everything- how can you complain about sugarbush and the current management?  This is a great example of how lucky we are to have an owner that is so engaged.  Thank you Win!



Agreed!


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## tnt1234 (Dec 15, 2017)

WinS said:


> Trail count tomorrow will be up to 59. Snowmaking overnight on Waterfall, Sleeper and Lower Snowball. Hiking over to Castlerock will be permitted and possibly up North Lynx. Will assess in am. Going to regular weekend hours with Bravo and Heaven’s Gate opening at 8am. Temps in the mid 20s and maybe a dusting overnight.



Wow.

I hiked with my daughters to castlerock last X_mas break for one run down Middle Earth - was really a treat - such a great adventure for the three of us...that was our first day at SB Lincoln peak.  So psyched that - if the weather holds - we might get to experience castle rock again this break.

Don't want to jinx it, but really glad to hear hiking is open already.


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## WinS (Dec 16, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Win is that new NoMad shack an expresso shack?????   If so that totally rules.  We have been asking for one of those for years after we experienced it at crystal mountain.  This makes me very happy.  :smile:


Yes. Enjoy&#55357;&#56397;


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## Hawk (Dec 16, 2017)

Observations from today.
 - as much as the Mt Ellen crew hates it, and based on the crowd today, there certainly was not a need to open Mt Ellen this weekend.  The lines were pretty much non-existent.  Sorry guys.
 - Natural snow trails Domino, Lex, Moonshine, Mall and Spills skied great early with surprisingly good coverage early and then some expected thinning as the day went on.  Paradise was good early but even at 9am it was showing the wear.  it was expected.
 - Castlerock - we were one of the first over today.  Skied Middle Earth with probably 1 set of tracks from today and maybe a half dozen from the days earlier.  Right side was over a foot deep untracked.  Best run of the year.  Things will get boney quick so go get it!
 - All in all great day of skiing.  Sitting here now pregaming for the sugarbash.  We love the Grift. It's going to be one of those nights that might not allow us to be there for the opening tomorrow.  I guess sacrifices have to be made.  ;-)


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## WinS (Dec 16, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Observations from today.
> - as much as the Mt Ellen crew hates it, and based on the crowd today, there certainly was not a need to open Mt Ellen this weekend.  The lines were pretty much non-existent.  Sorry guys.
> - Natural snow trails Domino, Lex, Moonshine, Mall and Spills skied great early with surprisingly good coverage early and then some expected thinning as the day went on.  Paradise was good early but even at 9am it was showing the wear.  it was expected.
> - Castlerock - we were one of the first over today.  Skied Middle Earth with probably 1 set of tracks from today and maybe a half dozen from the days earlier.  Right side was over a foot deep untracked.  Best run of the year.  Things will get boney quick so go get it!
> - All in all great day of skiing.  Sitting here now pregaming for the sugarbash.  We love the Grift. It's going to be one of those nights that might not allow us to be there for the opening tomorrow.  I guess sacrifices have to be made.  ;-)



No mention of the Expresso at Nomad?  I told them to expect you.


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2017)

I went by there real early in the morning so they were not open yet.  Rushed out of there in the afternoon to run errands and do dinner before the sugar bash.  Today we will hit it for sure.


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## Xcreamus (Dec 17, 2017)

*Not working here*



WinS said:


> It is working on both my iPhone and iPad when I look at both the web and the app using both chrome and explorer. Very often refreshing the browser is the solution or reboot.



Works with the app, but not with IE, Chrome or Firefox.


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## Orca (Dec 17, 2017)

Some observations from this weekend to add to Hawk's:
1. My first ski days of the year, and the RFID system is a huge improvement. Love it. Thank you to Win and Co. for another upgrade that betters the overall experience.
2. Sugarbush lifts were not at their best. Both Super Bravo and Valley House had people stuck for protracted periods on Saturday. Seemed like balky sensors on SB, and god know's what had VH idled for so long.
3. Trails were in great shape. Natural snow on Lixi's and Moonshine was particularly good. Snow from guns on Lower Snowball were putting out very nice snow.
4. Hot Shot / Waterfall were a snowmaking catastrophe with treacherous rink-like ice. They are the perfect example of how not to make snow.


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## djd66 (Dec 17, 2017)

Orca said:


> Some observations from this weekend to add to Hawk's:
> 1. My first ski days of the year, and the RFID system is a huge improvement. Love it. Thank you to Win and Co. for another upgrade that betters the overall experience.
> 2. Sugarbush lifts were not at their best. Both Super Bravo and Valley House had people stuck for protracted periods on Saturday. Seemed like balky sensors on SB, and god know's what had VH idled for so long.
> 3. Trails were in great shape. Natural snow on Lixi's and Moonshine was particularly good. Snow from guns on Lower Snowball were putting out very nice snow.
> 4. Hot Shot / Waterfall were a snowmaking catastrophe with treacherous rink-like ice. They are the perfect example of how not to make snow.



Great observations,...  completely agree with all.  I did an early run on hotshot/waterfall Saturday and it was treacherous.  The snow on snowball this morning was awesome velvet. With all the terrain open, the mountain felt like it was empty. I am amazed with how much got opened in just 3 weeks and 20" of natural snow.


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## Hawk (Dec 18, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Great observations,...  completely agree with all.  I did an early run on hotshot/waterfall Saturday and it was treacherous.  The snow on snowball this morning was awesome velvet. With all the terrain open, the mountain felt like it was empty. I am amazed with how much got opened in just 3 weeks and 20" of natural snow.



OMG are you complaining...... Wow Treacherous is a pretty strong accusation.  ;-)

JK Carry on.


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## djd66 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hawk said:


> OMG are you complaining...... Wow Treacherous is a pretty strong accusation.  ;-)
> 
> JK Carry on.



I figured you might chime in on a complaint of mine.   

I have skied all kinds of crap,...  the section of Waterfall I am referring to was that - complete crap!  Complete sheet of snow making ice disguised as snow.


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## mikec142 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Win is that new NoMad shack an expresso shack?????   If so that totally rules.  We have been asking for one of those for years after we experienced it at crystal mountain.  This makes me very happy.  :smile:



Huh, what are you talking about.  NoMad shack?


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2017)

djd66 said:


> I figured you might chime in on a complaint of mine.
> 
> I have skied all kinds of crap,...  the section of Waterfall I am referring to was that - complete crap!  Complete sheet of snow making ice disguised as snow.



Glad I stayed away from GH...Saturday was great.  Sunday was COLD and the natural trails had firmed up a bit.  I need to get mid season cold (ansd alcohol) tolerance up.  Looking forward to what looks like a good vacation week.


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## djd66 (Dec 18, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> Huh, what are you talking about.  NoMad shack?



Its a coffee shack outside of gatehouse.  I don't really get why someone would want to stand outside in the cold and order coffee.  Are they selling anything else besides coffee?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 18, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Its a coffee shack outside of gatehouse.  I don't really get why someone would want to stand outside in the cold and order coffee.  Are they selling anything else besides coffee?



Ya have to pack your own Jamesons :beer:


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## HowieT2 (Dec 18, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Its a coffee shack outside of gatehouse.  I don't really get why someone would want to stand outside in the cold and order coffee.  Are they selling anything else besides coffee?



at the top of the gatehouse?  where the old java the hut was?


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2017)

HowieT2 said:


> at the top of the gatehouse?  where the old java the hut was?



No, outside the main doors into lodge in the plaza.


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## Hawk (Dec 19, 2017)

Correct.  It is basically between the Waffle Hut and the entrance to the lodge.  If you ski in the Northwest, they have these at most resorts.  I first became familiar with this skiing Crystal Mountain and Stevens Pass.  Hot coffee on a cold day?  Sounds like a good idea to me.  You can either grab one and drink it on the lift(dispose cup at the top thank you) or typically I grab one before getting into the car for the drive.  Either way I have already purchased 3 cappuccinos.  Good Coffee.  If you are a coffee junkie, I would describe it as medium strength blend with nutty, chocolate notes.  They also sell pastries and whole been coffee or they can grind it for you.  Eventually they may have other offerings.  Nice people.  They came from Oregon.  I have ben asking the management for one of these for years.


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## rocojerry (Dec 19, 2017)

Mt Ellen often goes online this week..  Friday?


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## Hawk (Dec 19, 2017)

rocojerry said:


> Mt Ellen often goes online this week..  Friday?


That is correct


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> That is correct



Sweet!  Going to Mt. Ellen on Friday.  Any predictions on what trails will be open??  Really want to ski that "New" trail Black Diamond RUSH!!  :-D        

Any bets on whether North Ridge is working??


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## mikec142 (Dec 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Correct.  It is basically between the Waffle Hut and the entrance to the lodge.  If you ski in the Northwest, they have these at most resorts.  I first became familiar with this skiing Crystal Mountain and Stevens Pass.  Hot coffee on a cold day?  Sounds like a good idea to me.  You can either grab one and drink it on the lift(dispose cup at the top thank you) or typically I grab one before getting into the car for the drive.  Either way I have already purchased 3 cappuccinos.  Good Coffee.  If you are a coffee junkie, I would describe it as medium strength blend with nutty, chocolate notes.  They also sell pastries and whole been coffee or they can grind it for you.  Eventually they may have other offerings.  Nice people.  They came from Oregon.  I have ben asking the management for one of these for years.



This is great.  I'm often wishing I had a good coffee for the drive home.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 20, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> This is great.  I'm often wishing I had a good coffee for the drive home.


coffee for the drive?  put the car on cruise control and take a nap.

hope you're all doing your snow dances/prayers/voodoo.  we are on the razors edge.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 20, 2017)

Win - any updates on the webcams?  Living vicariously through these when not able to get up there from CT, but still only static shots using Chrome.  

BTW, loved the conditions a week ago so psyched to be heading north this holiday season with extended family!!


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## cdskier (Dec 20, 2017)

What a pleasant surprise today! I was expecting fast firm groomers with a dusting on top...instead the mountain was skiing wonderfully from top to bottom. I know the report said only 1-2 inches, but it really felt like 3-4 on some trails perhaps with the way the wind was blowing. It seemed to bond really well too with whatever was underneath. Ripcord and organgrinder were great this morning. Even lower mountain natural trails like twist and moonshine were skiing quite well. The lower parts of both had a bit of crust mixed in the snow, but still broke up without too much effort.

The only negative was the headwall of sleeper chutes. A pair of ice skates were needed there. Rest of sleeper was as would normally be expected after the first groom.

Overall though conditions today far exceeded my expectations. Anyone I talked to on the lift was saying the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mikec142 (Dec 20, 2017)

Heading up this weekend.  Fingers crossed that Saturday isn't a problem for the rest of the week.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 20, 2017)

Forecasted local temps here in Northern CT for Saturday have dropped from 51 to 49 so I'm hoping this is a harbinger of things on Saturday as I too, plan to head north!


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 20, 2017)

sugarbushskier said:


> Forecasted local temps here in Northern CT for Saturday have dropped from 51 to 49 so I'm hoping this is a harbinger of things on Saturday as I too, plan to head north!



Temps for Saturday are moderating in most recent forecasts... just a little colder and it's an all snow event for Sugarbush.


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## Hawk (Dec 20, 2017)

I'm not gong to get that optimistic.  My expectation is a net gain kind of thing.  Anything more and I will be very happy.  On the down side the Monday storm is trending east.  I was hoping for a good dump but we will see.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 20, 2017)

http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/

no whammies!


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## HowieT2 (Dec 20, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I'm not gong to get that optimistic.  My expectation is a net gain kind of thing.  Anything more and I will be very happy.  On the down side the Monday storm is trending east.  I was hoping for a good dump but we will see.



as long as its not a cutter and I think we are good there.


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2017)

CD, The second groom tonight will correct the headwall.It’s steepness requires work with a winch cat.


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Its a coffee shack outside of gatehouse.  I don't really get why someone would want to stand outside in the cold and order coffee.  Are they selling anything else besides coffee?



Because some people like Hawk want good espresso. They are selling some muffins too.


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2017)

ME on Friday should be mostly open. Will need patrol to check some of the lower natural trails. Snowmaking now on Cliffs with only Cruiser and Brambles left. Cruiser is all towers so the trail should ski well even with snowmaking going. Check out the Green Mountain Lounge. New upstairs kitchen allows new menu. Sampled it today and gave thumbs up.  Walt’s will be open too with grilled cheese and Sip of Sunshine. Expect the terrain park to open too.


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2017)

sugarbushskier said:


> Win - any updates on the webcams?  Living vicariously through these when not able to get up there from CT, but still only static shots using Chrome.
> 
> BTW, loved the conditions a week ago so psyched to be heading north this holiday season with extended family!!



They are working but the vendor that allows the streaming into the app is ending this service 12/31 so we are searching for a new solution.


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## Hawk (Dec 21, 2017)

Mount Ellen opening at 8 or 9 tomorrow?


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Mount Ellen opening at 8 or 9 tomorrow?



GMX is 8am everyday


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## tumbler (Dec 21, 2017)

What's Tony saying the forecast is going to be on the hill?


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 21, 2017)

Hate to jinx it yet does anyone know if North Ridge is working??


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## mikec142 (Dec 21, 2017)

Hey Win,

Just a quick shout out to let you know that I think it's awesome that we can get information and updates straight from the source.  It's exactly the way that a business should be run and it's amazing for community building.  It's just another reason why I love Sugarbush.  My family and I are driving up on Saturday and planning to ski Sun-Tues.  See you on the mountain!

Mike


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 21, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> Hey Win,
> 
> Just a quick shout out to let you know that I think it's awesome that we can get information and updates straight from the source.  It's exactly the way that a business should be run and it's amazing for community building.  It's just another reason why I love Sugarbush.  My family and I are driving up on Saturday and planning to ski Sun-Tues.  See you on the mountain!
> 
> Mike



I agree.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 21, 2017)

Also with the upcoming snow, Fri/Sat looks like a net gainer and Sun/Mon more snow.  Will that be enough snow to open the slide brook chair?


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 21, 2017)

WinS said:


> They are working but the vendor that allows the streaming into the app is ending this service 12/31 so we are searching for a new solution.



That would probably explain why I'm still only getting static pics.Love and miss those streaming SB webcams!


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2017)

Will try to answer all of the above.

Tony is calling for a few inches early tomorrow through the day before changing over to freezing rain in the early morning.  Could be some icing on the lifts Saturday morning on Saturday. Then some rain and maybe ending with a bit of snow.  But the forecasts are all over the board.  It does look like some decent snow Christmas Day.  The net is that we will see a gain.

Slidebrook is close and hopefully can be running by Tuesday.

I rode Northridge today.  Someone had to check out ME to make sure it is OK for everyone tomorrow 8).  The groomers will be nice but there is some great powder on the upper mountain on trails like Bravo, Tumbler and Hammerhead.  Crew is working on the Park and making snow over there, so will likely open the Park on Monday or Tuesday.

The big issue next week is the cold, so get your layers  ready.

Thank you, Mike.


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## Orca (Dec 22, 2017)

Webcams are streaming video correctly again!


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2017)

I thought mt Ellen was fantastic this morning. Skied from 8 until about noon. Snowing pretty good almost all morning and still coming down. Exterminator was probably my favorite although skiers right on elbow was pretty sweet too early on with some decent powder accumulations. Even cliffs with the guns on was skiing well.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## WinS (Dec 22, 2017)

We will be turning off snowmaking sometime tonight or tomorrow as temperatures rise. Birch should be done and will let this sit for a day or two before we groom and open North Lynx. Setting up Birdland to blow on the next to last trail. Sunrise is last at LP. At ME Cliffs looks good so will likely go to Cruiser, Northridge Expressway and Brambles. There should be enough snow depth for CR and SB lifts by Tuesday but the cold next week could prevent us from running SB. 5 degrees is the minimum for safety. Looking to open Terrain Park by Christmas. A lot of features were set today.

Still hiring for lifts if you know of anyone who wants a job with great benefits.

Looks like some mixed tomorrow. Hopefully ends with snow and then some more Christmas Day.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!


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## WinS (Dec 23, 2017)

While yesterday was a fun powder day, today brought in some different weather overnight. By morning the temperature had come up and we saw an inversion -25 as the base and 33 at the Summit and light drizzle coming down.  Lift  maintenance came in early anticipating that we would be experiencing icing on the lifts.  Fixed grip lifts fare much better with icing than do high speed detachable quads. I was actually surprised to see all scheduled lifts other than the Gatehouse open on time.  Because of the inversion we had a lot more ice build up on it and as the mechanics chipped the ice more built up.  For safety we ran the high speed quads slower than normal.
Unfortunately, the icing on Northridge caused some chairs to jam in the top terminal late in the morning.  After working for some time to free them, we realized it would take much longer and called patrol for an evacuation.  29 people were on line at the time and all were evacuated safely.  Some on the lift have already posted photos and videos of the evacuation.  However, people were on the lift for quite a while and given the dampness of the day this was not a fun experience. we hoped to make all feel a bit better with some complimentary food and drink.  We feel badly however, that a good day of skiing was ruined for some.

The forecast looks like we should start to see a bit more snow this evening before this system end.  Then we have our hopes up for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.  Our Tony is calling for 3-5", and I am hoping his usual conservative forecast ends up being closer to the Weather channel's 6-10".  That would be a great present.


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## WinS (Dec 24, 2017)

Only got groomers on the hill after midnight.  They are skiing well but the rest is crunchy.  Not a thick coat so it will ski in.  With full grooming tonight and predicted snowfall we should see a great Christmas Day.  Might be good to come out early and  celebrate and dine later. That's what we are planning.


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## teleo (Dec 24, 2017)

Xmas eve snow report to twas the night before christmas for second year in a row. Sounds like a tradition in the making.  Like[emoji16] 


Status update for Sun, Dec 24

3:15*PM

*

‘Twas the night before Christmas and across Sugarbush,

The groomers were planning the snow they would push.

*

In the Valley were families snuggled warm in their beds,

While Christmas Day*powder*visions danced in their heads.

*

A winch cat purred merrily down Inverness run,

As powder fell steadily – we can’t wait to have fun!

*

Up first chair, 8 AM, skiers will shuttle with joy.

Under all that fresh powder is soft corduroy.

*

Cord on Jester, on Hot Shot, and on Waterfall.

From the tippy top of Ripcord down to Lower Snowball.

*

To smooth 45 trails is what the groomers are hopin’,

With fresh snow on the ground, a few more trails may open.

*

For the snowmakers’ hard work, we must clap our hands.

Building tall whales on Crackerjack, Cruiser and Birdland.

*

The Park Cat is sleepily grooming one final pass

around 40 new features on Reimergasse.

*

Super Bravo, Heaven’s Gate, and GMX spin at 8.

Instead of parking, hop on the*shuttle*so you wont be late!

*

By 9 AM all other*lifts come alive,

Upper mountain lifts spin until 3:45.

*

By 4 o’clock, we’ll be ready to hit the hay,

But hark, what’s that sound? Is it time for*apres?

*

Lift tickets and quad packs can be redeemed ahead of time,

For the lowest price buy your tickets*online.

*

Abide*uphill travel*rules and review the responsibility code,

When adventure takes you somewhere new, it’s best to start slow.

*

Santa is coming… were you naughty or nice?

If we’re nice, he’ll bring powder! Naughty Vermonters get ice.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 26, 2017)

Streaming cams working for me again.Thanks!


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## WinS (Dec 26, 2017)

teleo said:


> Xmas eve snow report to twas the night before christmas for second year in a row. Sounds like a tradition in the making.  Like[emoji16]
> 
> 
> Status update for Sun, Dec 24
> ...



Emily does a great job!


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 26, 2017)

WinS said:


> we hoped to make all feel a bit better with some complimentary food and drink. .



Been stuck on a lift twice in my life. Both times offered free ticket vouchers.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 28, 2017)

Coming out of Allyn's lodge today..lol


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2017)

Brrrrrr.   Just came in.  -4 at the base and who knows how cold up top  Skied Mall, Lift Line, Domino and others.  The wind basically striped the snow off the trails today.  There was some good areas but dam it was cold.  Actually gate house was skiing fairly well.  I think is was the least wind effected.  Well I got out and that was a victory in my book.


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## Orca (Dec 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Brrrrrr.   Just came in.  -4 at the base and who knows how cold up top  Skied Mall, Lift Line, Domino and others.  The wind basically striped the snow off the trails today.  There was some good areas but dam it was cold.  Actually gate house was skiing fairly well.  I think is was the least wind effected.  Well I got out and that was a victory in my book.



The high and low temps for the next 10 days are downright frigid. Pervasive negative temps with some warming to single digits. One the plus side, it's better than a thaw.


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## rocks860 (Dec 28, 2017)

I’m going up the 27th of january so I’m all for no thaw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tumbler (Dec 29, 2017)

Any chance of turning on Steins or something for fresh gunpowder in these cold temps?


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## WinS (Dec 29, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Any chance of turning on Steins or something for fresh gunpowder in these cold temps?



No. We are finishing up at ME on Northridge Express and Brambles and will pause until after the Holiday week. We will be making more snow on spring trails like Stein’s, Coffee Run, Snowball and Spring Fling and refreshing others where needed. At this point we don’t need more depth on other than the spring trails. Tomorrow should be the best of the week.


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## Orca (Jan 1, 2018)

Crikey, next weekend looks cold. Currently weather.com shows next Saturday at Sugarbush Resort with a high of -15F and a low of -25F. That is presumably the base; it's shuddering to think about the mid-mountain and summit temps.


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## lana1 (Jan 1, 2018)

I'll be there tomorrow!


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## hovercraft (Jan 1, 2018)

Orca said:


> Crikey, next weekend looks cold. Currently weather.com shows next Saturday at Sugarbush Resort with a high of -15F and a low of -25F. That is presumably the base; it's shuddering to think about the mid-mountain and summit temps.



Top of mountain next weekend will be minus 50 to 55 with wind chill.


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## cdskier (Jan 1, 2018)

Orca said:


> Crikey, next weekend looks cold. Currently weather.com shows next Saturday at Sugarbush Resort with a high of -15F and a low of -25F. That is presumably the base; it's shuddering to think about the mid-mountain and summit temps.



I have never in my life said "it is too cold to ski"...but I might be doing exactly that next weekend and not driving up if that forecast doesn't change. And if there's a possibility of winds...yikes...


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## shadyjay (Jan 1, 2018)

These temps have definitely been chilly and lift rides are cold, but if you're prepared, there is some good skiing to be had.  This was my first weekend back with lift ops and I saw most people were covered up quite well all weekend.  The wind wasn't too bad, but it doesn't take much when its below zero to give you a chill.  

When it does (eventually) hit the teens or 20 above, it's going to feel like a heat wave!


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## kingslug (Jan 1, 2018)

Ive been in minus 50..there is simply no way to ski in that temp..downright dangerouse..instant frostbite.


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## mikec142 (Jan 2, 2018)

Timed it right for the first time in ages.  Drove up to VT on the 23rd in the rain.  By 4pm it had turned to snow in Burlington so I suspect it had turned to snow earlier in the mountains.  Skied at Sugarbush LP on the 24th and 25th.  The 24th was a bit scratchy, but whatever they got overnight helped.  The 25th was delightful with about 5 inches falling overnight into the morning.  Valley House and Super Bravo were running at a slower speed late in the day due to wind.  Skied at Mount Ellen on the 26th.  Definitely colder.  Summit chair was slow due to wind.  Got a surprise storm that started in the AM and dumped for a couple of hours.  Not sure how much they received, but I would guess 4-5".  All three ski days were empty on the mountain with zero lift lines.  Drove into Burlington in the AM on the 27th for lunch with family and then headed back to NJ.  As much as I love to ski, I woulda braved the cold.  My wife and kids love it, but they wouldn't go out in this brutal stuff.


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## mikec142 (Jan 2, 2018)

As a sidenote, on Christmas afternoon, we finished skiing and were hanging out in CR Pub for some Apres Ski.  Six adults and 9 kids.  Around 5pm the kids collectively told us that they didn't want Chinese food for dinner.  In a panic, we turned to the bartender (big guy with a big white beard...I'm drawing a blank on his name) who got on the phone and procured us a reservation for 15 people at the Hydeaway for 6:30pm.  Couldn't have been nicer or more helpful.


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## cdskier (Jan 2, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> In a panic, we turned to the bartender (big guy with a big white beard...I'm drawing a blank on his name) who got on the phone and procured us a reservation for 15 people at the Hydeaway for 6:30pm.  Couldn't have been nicer or more helpful.



Shawn


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## mikec142 (Jan 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Shawn



Noted.  Thanks.  He was great.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 2, 2018)

got 6 days in over the holiday.  great conditions.  woods were great. best base I can remember in december.  chilly.  got a bit of frostbite on my face but like they say, no pain no gain.

 luv the new walts at mt ellen.  upper and lower fis were shockingly good.


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## Hawk (Jan 3, 2018)

It was either last year or the year before that the had over 3 feet of snow in the woods in December before we had the warm up.  That was some of the best skiing in years.  I don't know what woods you were skiing but where we were skiing, it was very challenging and not the best.


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## cdskier (Jan 3, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It was either last year or the year before that the had over 3 feet of snow in the woods in December before we had the warm up.  That was some of the best skiing in years.  I don't know what woods you were skiing but where we were skiing, it was very challenging and not the best.



Pretty sure that was last year where we had something like 100"+ in December (especially at upper elevations)...


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## WWF-VT (Jan 3, 2018)

I keep a ski log and last year at the end of December the YTD snowfall total was 154".  This year it's 50".  The base is not as deep this year but it's definitely firm after the quick warm up just before Xmas.   FWIW I skipped FIS at Mt Ellen and my son said it was not very good.


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## slatham (Jan 3, 2018)

WOW! I heard Stowe reported a surprise 12'' last night, so I took a look at Sugarbush - notta!? I've noticed a number of times this year where Stowe has received significantly more snow, but 12" vs. zero is very strange. 

So then I looked at YTD: Stowe reports 111" vs. 51" at Sugarbush. This is shocking. I know there is a difference and on average Stowe picks up more snow, and each storm is its own entity, but 111 vs 51 over a 2 month period is very unusual. 

I'm a bit a weather nut and I wish I had watched this more carefully this season (more focused on SoVT). But my guess is that this is very influenced by Lake plumes that are targeting areas just to the North of Sugarbush. As we all know, a lake band will dump in one area and 5 miles on either side, nothing. And of course weather patterns do show persistent.

Appreciate any insight from those who have been paying more attention to this.

EDIT : I just checked my "home" mountain of Bromley - they are notorious for under reporting, and they didn't start counting until Thanksgiving, and yet they have 44" YTD. Sugarbush is in some twilight zone snow hole. Of course that will probably change....


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## cdskier (Jan 3, 2018)

slatham said:


> WOW! I heard Stowe reported a surprise 12'' last night, so I took a look at Sugarbush - notta!? I've noticed a number of times this year where Stowe has received significantly more snow, but 12" vs. zero is very strange.
> 
> So then I looked at YTD: Stowe reports 111" vs. 51" at Sugarbush. This is shocking. I know there is a difference and on average Stowe picks up more snow, and each storm is its own entity, but 111 vs 51 over a 2 month period is very unusual.
> 
> ...



Sugarbush reported 1" overnight, but close enough to 0. And yes, Sugarbush has not been seeing nearly as much snow as points north this season. And I just looked at K and even they have a higher total (62 at the moment there). So there have been some storms that delivered a bit more to the south, and others that delivered a bit more to the north. SB is missing on both ends. Stowe has also had some good accumulations several other times this season when SB received not much from lake and/or terrain induced snow. For example on 11/27 Stowe had 6-8 and SB had 1 (first example I saw looking quickly through my snow report e-mails...but I know it happened a bunch of times).

I also think SB is under-reporting slightly this year and I'm going to blame their new raised snow stake platforms. There were several days in December when I was there that what you felt on the trail seemed more than what they reported. I think with the platforms being raised, snow is blowing off them a bit. They may not be losing a lot this way, but even just an inch or two here and there can add up over time. Even MRG is reporting higher totals this season so far compared to SB.


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## Hawk (Jan 4, 2018)

I have been watching Stowe and the Northern areas this season.  It's not just lake enhanced it's pretty much all of the snow events that have come through.  They are just setting up better and getting more snow longer.  Also their elevation enhanced situations have been off the charts.  If you follow Scott Braten who does their reports and also is on several Message boards, you get the picture pretty quickly.  He is in my opinion one of the best at predicting and documenting snow.  Also this guy who goes by the handle Jspin in Waterbury.  I have been following them for years.  They are very dedicated and very good.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I also think SB is under-reporting slightly this year and I'm going to blame their new raised snow stake platforms. There were several days in December when I was there that what you felt on the trail seemed more than what they reported. I think with the platforms being raised, snow is blowing off them a bit. They may not be losing a lot this way, but even just an inch or two here and there can add up over time.



I just looked at the time-lapse of the summit snow stake from today. Almost nothing has accumulated on the stake itself, yet you can see a decent amount of snow accumulating on the ground nearby. Sure some of that could be blowing/drifting a bit...but there's still decent snow falling from what I can see. It just isn't staying on the platform.


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## ducky (Jan 5, 2018)

Three runs at Castlerock today via GH, -4˚ but not too windy and I was actually too warm. Tons of snow down Rumble and Lift Line but also some exposed rocks as usual. Got stuck in the woods with too many hidden branches even if there is good depth. There haven't been enough freeze-thaws so deep snow but not compacted into a base yet. Tomorrow may be different conditions with more wind. A patrol friend did Twist and Moonshine at 2:30 and got first tracks with the late Bravo opening.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 6, 2018)

Lucky b*st*rd getting first tracks on Twist & Moonshine!!!


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## Orca (Jan 6, 2018)

Looking at the webcams this morning and it's pretty sparse out there. Not surprised with temps running from -10F to -20F with what looks like more than a bit of wind. I'm happy to be sitting inside, the sun from a window painting my right side while enjoying the last of the eggnog.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 7, 2018)

I can't believe that Sugarbush is running the Blazer programs in sub zero temperatures this weekend.  Basically an invitation for frostbite for kids.


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## benski (Jan 7, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> I can't believe that Sugarbush is running the Blazer programs in sub zero temperatures this weekend.  Basically an invitation for frostbite for kids.



Surprised, though I was in that program, the older kids will be fine, they will  be no worse than anyone else. I hope they met up and drop off inside somewhere.


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2018)

I saw those guys yesterday running the kids up and down the mall in the afternoon.  Every kid I saw looked happy and peppy.  It was cold out but the wind on Valley house was not bad at all and if you skied with purpose you were fine.  I did about 10 runs and didn't loose my feet or hands.  That is a win in my book.


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2018)

benski said:


> Surprised, though I was in that program, the older kids will be fine, they will  be no worse than anyone else. I hope they met up and drop off inside somewhere.



Ben is Howie going to ski more this year or what????


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## benski (Jan 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Ben is Howie going to ski more this year or what????



I don't know. 

Sugarbush should really close the Valley house lift its going to be that cold. A little skating is a good thing in that weather.


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## tumbler (Jan 8, 2018)

What a ghost town this weekend.  Glad we decided to go.  Saturday was 2 runs then inside to warm up.  Wind was not as bad as forecasted, just a bit gusty sometimes.  Sunday was much more bearable but still needed some warm up breaks.    Conditions were great, esp. Castlerock.  Feel bad, that must have been a big hit on the income.  As quiet as last weekend was, I'm sure this coming MLK one will be a zoo.  Hoping the thaw ends with backside snow...


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## WinS (Jan 8, 2018)

tumbler said:


> What a ghost town this weekend.  Glad we decided to go.  Saturday was 2 runs then inside to warm up.  Wind was not as bad as forecasted, just a bit gusty sometimes.  Sunday was much more bearable but still needed some warm up breaks.    Conditions were great, esp. Castlerock.  Feel bad, that must have been a big hit on the income.  As quiet as last weekend was, I'm sure this coming MLK one will be a zoo.  Hoping the thaw ends with backside snow...



The best answer was “it sucked”. But there is a lot of winter left and Roger Hill told me last Fall that he thought this would be a back ended winter and not to get depressed in December and January. With the base we have and some warmer temps the second third of the season 
be great.


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## WinS (Jan 8, 2018)

benski said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Sugarbush should really close the Valley house lift its going to be that cold. A little skating is a good thing in that weather.



Ha! Then you answer the critics :lol:


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## Hawk (Jan 10, 2018)

Glad you understood what he was saying.  I just chalked it up to another cryptic millennial response.


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## gonesquatchin (Jan 10, 2018)

Haven't been in here in a while.  Is the MRV forum shot?  I've been getting some kind of database error when I go there.  If it's shot, is this the place to come for info from Win and Win Jr.?


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## bill-now (Jan 10, 2018)

FYI: Win = Win Jr = WinS


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## gonesquatchin (Jan 10, 2018)

> FYI: Win = Win Jr = WinS



Ah, makes more sense.  

So is this the thread he's posting in now, or is there a more relevant thread/forum?  And is the MRV forum gone for good?


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2018)

gonesquatchin said:


> Ah, makes more sense.
> 
> So is this the thread he's posting in now, or is there a more relevant thread/forum?  And is the MRV forum gone for good?



Yes, this is where he's posting now. As for the MRV forum...could be. Nick couldn't figure out what was wrong with it from what I remember.


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## gonesquatchin (Jan 10, 2018)

Thanks


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2018)

Yes the last email exchange I had with Nick about this, he said the Data Base error was above his understanding and he needed to talk to someone about it.  I am thinking that he is real busy in his new endeavors so this has dropped way down the priority list if not just gone out the window all together.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2018)

I love the optimism in today's snow report about maybe a surprise powder day on Saturday. The question is how realistic is that though? Sugarbush seems to be way too close to the line between areas that changeover to snow quicker vs areas that see more ice.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2018)

The models have been in flux all week.  Back and forth they go. The report on NECN this morning was more favorable with snow likely starting Saturday morning into the evening.  BVT NOAA is now on board with a 3-5 inch snow fall.  We will see more clarity by tomorrow.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2018)

Even if we get snow...I'm a bit worried about the Friday weather coupled with a rapid re-freeze Friday night and what that means for trail conditions on Saturday. Sunday I think has a possibility to be good, especially if there's snow fall throughout the day on Saturday.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2018)

Ya, I think everybody should skip Saturday.  It's going to suck.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2018)

My decision then comes down to...is it worth driving 5 hours Friday evening to realistically ski only a few hours Sunday before going home? I'm not off on Monday, so this isn't a holiday for me. If I was off Monday, then I'd at least have all day Sunday and Monday morning to ski and this would be a much easier decision.


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## slatham (Jan 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> My decision then comes down to...is it worth driving 5 hours Friday evening to realistically ski only a few hours Sunday before going home? I'm not off on Monday, so this isn't a holiday for me. If I was off Monday, then I'd at least have all day Sunday and Monday morning to ski and this would be a much easier decision.



You need to follow the weather a bit more closely, and also re-read Hawks comment for what it really is......


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2018)

slatham said:


> You need to follow the weather a bit more closely, and also re-read Hawks comment for what it really is......



I was debating whether it was sarcastic or not...but based on what I see on the weather I have a hard time believing Saturday will be good even if there's backend snow.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 11, 2018)

*weather*



slatham said:


> You need to follow the weather a bit more closely, and also re-read Hawks comment for what it really is......


you never know til you go


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2018)

STREETSKIER said:


> you never know til you go



I've kicked myself in the past for not following that motto a couple times...and yet I'm still having trouble convincing myself of the potential upside for this weekend...


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I've kicked myself in the past for not following that motto a couple times...and yet I'm still having trouble convincing myself of the potential upside for this weekend...


 Perhaps try kicking harder?


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## tumbler (Jan 11, 2018)

The wet snow is not going to freeze in a matter of minutes and anything that falls will bond to it and prevent it from becoming a solid ice cube.  Sleet actually works very well for this and if it turns to snow then even better.  It's the weather, the models and weather people don't know how it is going to actually happen.  I'm going either way and if it sucks then it sucks, and I drink, have fun and enjoy some North Country time.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 11, 2018)

tumbler said:


> The wet snow is not going to freeze in a matter of minutes and anything that falls will bond to it and prevent it from becoming a solid ice cube.  Sleet actually works very well for this and if it turns to snow then even better.  It's the weather, the models and weather people don't know how it is going to actually happen.  I'm going either way and if it sucks then it sucks, and I drink, have fun and enjoy some North Country time.



This.If the backend has a decent amount of snow,even 3-6 inches,the surface underneath wont freeze solid.That snow will actually minmize the transition to cold and can actually end up having pretty good skiing if there is anything left before that occurs.I'm kidding except when refering to natural snow trails.For us Pats fan we have a backup plan anyway for Saturday night anyway.I probably wont feel too good Sunday morning either way.


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## WinS (Jan 12, 2018)

SIKSKIER said:


> This.If the backend has a decent amount of snow,even 3-6 inches,the surface underneath wont freeze solid.That snow will actually minmize the transition to cold and can actually end up having pretty good skiing if there is anything left before that occurs.I'm kidding except when refering to natural snow trails.For us Pats fan we have a backup plan anyway for Saturday night anyway.I probably wont feel too good Sunday morning either way.



I think we might be pleasantly surprised. Looks to  begin changing over before midnight with maybe 2-4" by 7am and then a couple of more before it ends.  We will send 5 groomer out at midnight at LP and 3 at ME with a heavy grooming plan. If the snow comes in a planned it will mix in well as the trails are groomed.  Right now we have not planned to close any trail, but the natural  trails will be assessed by patrol in the morning and we could see some closings.  The depth on the snowmaking trails are holding up very well  but there are exposed spots on the naturals.  One we see what everything looks like in the Am will put an plan together on where best to fire up the snowguns.

Go Pats!  The game will be on in the bars.


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2018)

snowing now finally.  Hope we get at least a few inches.


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## WinS (Jan 13, 2018)

Turned out worse than expected.   The rain and freezing rain stayed a lot longer expected and disappointing snow total.  The other surprise was the wind.  Much higher than the forecast.  Thus, we got off to a really slow start with windholds and icing.  By 11am we had Village, the carpets, Gatehouse, North Lynx and Valley running and the lift mechanics were chipping ice of Bravo now that the wind died down.  Hoping to have that running  before noon. Heaven's Gate still on windhold but hopefully that will let go but the time Bravo opens.  North is  in worse shape with Sunny Q and Inverness open and deicing occurring on the others.  Tomorrow while colder look sunny much lighter winds.  We will have a heavy grooming plan and will likely winch Steins' and turn on the tower guns so that could be a pick of the days.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 13, 2018)

WinS said:


> I think we might be pleasantly surprised.





WinS said:


> Turned out worse than expected.



The life of an eastern skier in two sentences.


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## WinS (Jan 13, 2018)

Keelhauled said:


> The life of an eastern skier in two sentences.



And we Eastern Skiers are always optimists.

 Heavy grooming plan tonight  includes winching Stein's and Ripcord and grooming both Birch and Sunrise and just about  all groomable trails on both sides.  Will turn towers on Stein's first thing in the am and likely run some on Snowball and Spring Fling.  With the cold  temps and light winds and sun, I think we should have  a great day.  Next week's possible snow may get the naturals back open.

The Mountain team did a great job this morning.  If you see a black jacket give him/her a high five.  It was rough out there this morning.


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## Hawk (Jan 14, 2018)

No Snowmaking this morning.  They must have had and issue.  The good news is 0 wind.  Headed out now to check it out now.  Looks like Bravo is down this morning.


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> No Snowmaking this morning.  They must have had and issue.  The good news is 0 wind.  Headed out now to check it out now.  Looks like Bravo is down this morning.



Bravo opened at 9am.  They were working on an electrical issue so opened Valley House early at 8am.  Snowmaking is starting. The plan was to start sometime after 9am.  After a deep freeze it  can take some time to thaw everything out and get the water flowing.


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## ducky (Jan 14, 2018)

Took a few runs at Mt Ellen this morning on my teles for a change of pace. A nice sunny day and the conditions were pretty good given what we had Friday if a bit cold. Back home now to snowshoe with the dog. People looked to be having fun ..and the mountain needs a break.


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## Hawk (Jan 14, 2018)

Fair enough.  Snow blowing on Steins and Bravo is running.  They did a good job grooming Ripchord, North links and others also.


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2018)

Going to change the snowmaking plan somewhat.  We will be staying on Stein's but now not going to SB and SF.  The hydrants will require a lot of kicking to free them up so rather than  spend a lot of labor hours doing that now we will go to some other areas that can use refreshing.  Winching Upper Grinder and CLiffs tonight and laying off Sunrise.  Looks to be a bit warmer tomorrow.


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## skifree (Jan 14, 2018)

Updates appreciated 
Thank you!


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 15, 2018)

WinS said:


> The hydrants will require a lot of kicking to free them up


Sounds just like my truck.I still have some cement on my roof I cant get off and it looks like I tweaked one of my windshield wipers trying to free it.Over in Franconia we actually came away better than I anticipated.Suer lots of snow loss but we rebounded pretty darn good.Hope you guys get the Bush back in shape soon.Good luck.


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## jimmck (Jan 16, 2018)

During (taken from Bravo)

During (taken 1/2 way down Stein's, skiers left looking up)

After

Beautiful snow, it was quite fun today.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











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## Hawk (Jan 17, 2018)

Well there is our spring base.  Hopefully it lasts until Cinco de Mayo.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 17, 2018)

Thats looks awesome!


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## djd66 (Jan 17, 2018)

The Sugarbush Titons!


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 17, 2018)

That's gonna take some cat work to spread out!  Those whales are as tall as the towers!


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## sugarbushskier (Jan 17, 2018)

Feeling the love......


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 17, 2018)

Peace, Love, and a ton of snow


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2018)

So the snow report has been saying snowmaking all week but on the trail report nothing is marked as snowmaking.  Have they been making snow to resurface or was it just Steins for spring depth?


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## rocks860 (Jan 22, 2018)

Someone please make me feel better about going up next week 


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2018)

The groomed runs skied decently well this weekend as long as you were there early...that's about the best I can offer at the moment given the weather we've had.


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## rocks860 (Jan 22, 2018)

Ugh I guess this is karma for the epic week last year


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## Orca (Jan 22, 2018)

Rocks860: On the positive side, Sugarbush is managing a bad hand from the weather pretty well. Some might say not enough snow is being made to compensate for the ugly rains; however, we know Sugarbush is built on a model of less man-made and more natural snow than places like Sunday River or Mount Snow. Unfortunately, all the natural snow trails are in bad shape and rightly closed. And tomorrow's rain is likely to worsen the situation, with little to no snow in the immediate forecast. On the plus side, the snowmaking trails have been decent. I think grooming efforts have improved this year, resulting in better groomer runs.


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2018)

Well the Grift is playing the Castlerock Pub on Saturday night.  That's always a blast.  With the warm and R*&% this week it looks like we will be down to dirt from mid mountain down and mostly dirt above.  We will be down to snowmaking trails only for the foreseeable future.  But any day of skiing is better than staying home.  I always look forward to hanging with our community at Castlerock, house parties or even the Hydeaway or Mad River barn.  Always a reason to come up.  As everyone here knows I do not hold the same level of regard for the conditions we have this year.  I came from a place that does a far superior job and I am jaded in that regard.   But overwhelmingly, I find that my experience with the community and the natural snow is why I will stay and keep coming back.


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Well the Grift is playing the Castlerock Pub on Saturday night.  That's always a blast.  With the warm and R*&% this week it looks like we will be down to dirt from mid mountain down and mostly dirt above.  We will be down to snowmaking trails only for the foreseeable future.  But any day of skiing is better than staying home.  I always look forward to hanging with our community at Castlerock, house parties or even the Hydeaway or Mad River barn.  Always a reason to come up.  As everyone here knows I do not hold the same level of regard for the conditions we have this year.  I came from a place that does a far superior job and I am jaded in that regard.   But overwhelmingly, I find that my experience with the community and the natural snow is why I will stay and keep coming back.



Oh yeah no matter what I’ll have a good time up there, just rather disappointed in the situation as I traded the week we normally have at eagles (last week of March) for this week. Love the mad river valley, was just hoping to get some skiing in while I was there


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## bumpcrasher (Jan 23, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Well the Grift is playing the Castlerock Pub on Saturday night.  That's always a blast.  With the warm and R*&% this week it looks like we will be down to dirt from mid mountain down and mostly dirt above.  We will be down to snowmaking trails only for the foreseeable future.  But any day of skiing is better than staying home.  I always look forward to hanging with our community at Castlerock, house parties or even the Hydeaway or Mad River barn.  Always a reason to come up.  As everyone here knows I do not hold the same level of regard for the conditions we have this year.  I came from a place that does a far superior job and I am jaded in that regard.   But overwhelmingly, I find that my experience with the community and the natural snow is why I will stay and keep coming back.



I hear ya Hawk!!  We have started a support group of depressed skiers, if you care to join.  Our first meeting is now at The Grift this Saturday night!!

We can discuss the pros/cons of snowmaking, grooming, etc.  However, I think we are just stuck with the hand we have been dealt by Ma Nature.


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## sugarbushskier (Jan 23, 2018)

I'm trying to be optimistic!  Law of averages means if Sugarbush normally gets ~250 inches a year and we are currently at 66, then we are in for a wallop starting in about 10 days through April?

I know, I know, I'm hoping I'm not jinxing anything, but cmon, this is ridiculous!


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 23, 2018)

March is typically the snowiest month


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2018)

Certainly was last year, I got very lucky being there for that crazy storm


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Certainly was last year, I got very lucky being there for that crazy storm



Even if March isn't always the snowiest month (often it is right up there though), you still by that point have the advantage of theoretically the deepest bases of the season to help mitigate any potential lack of fresh snow.


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Even if March isn't always the snowiest month (often it is right up there though), you still by that point have the advantage of theoretically the deepest bases of the season to help mitigate any potential lack of fresh snow.



I’m sure I’ll get up there at least once more this season just feels real crappy wasting an entire week. Last year would have been dismal without that storm, I went up on Saturday and didn’t even ski until Tuesday because it wasn’t worth it


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## djd66 (Jan 23, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I’m sure I’ll get up there at least once more this season just feels real crappy wasting an entire week. Last year would have been dismal without that storm, I went up on Saturday and didn’t even ski until Tuesday because it wasn’t worth it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you have the flexibility and you are taking a week off to ski -  - you should hop on a plane and go somewhere that has snow.  Looking at the radar and web cams, it seems pretty dismal. 

Lets hope the law of averages plays out for the second half of the season.


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2018)

djd66 said:


> If you have the flexibility and you are taking a week off to ski -  - you should hop on a plane and go somewhere that has snow.  Looking at the radar and web cams, it seems pretty dismal.
> 
> Lets hope the law of averages plays out for the second half of the season.



My family has a week at a timeshare there so it’s not really an option to go somewhere else as the lodging is already paid for. Like I said I enjoy just being up there so I’m not too concerned but I’d like to actually ski. A few years ago I was up in March and by the middle of the week it was 70 degrees, still had fun though 


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## shadyjay (Jan 23, 2018)

Today was actually a lot of fun on "hero snow".  Yes, it r@!#ed but temps stayed in the 30s for the most part and we probably walked away with little depth damage, unlike last week when it was 60 deg, pouring rain, and fog.  We're going back into the freezer starting tomorrow for a few days, so things will be firm again.


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## rocks860 (Jan 23, 2018)

shadyjay said:


> Today was actually a lot of fun on "hero snow".  Yes, it r@!#ed but temps stayed in the 30s for the most part and we probably walked away with little depth damage, unlike last week when it was 60 deg, pouring rain, and fog.  We're going back into the freezer starting tomorrow for a few days, so things will be firm again.



Well that makes me feel a bit better


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2018)

Hey Shady.  Turn on the guns.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Hey Shady.  Turn on the guns.



Looks like they turned on at least a few. Snow blowing from a gun is visible in the HG webcam. If the trail report is accurate, it shows snowmaking on 3 trails (DS, Birdland, and Pushover chute...the last one being a bit of an odd one since that's really not a key trail by any means)


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## ducky (Jan 24, 2018)

Anyone else having trouble posting here? I am being told must be reviewed by admin first.

Anyway, skied a few runs today and was not awful. Better on the GH side and more days' grooming wil help. Some snow coming Sun/Mon.
Telemark World Cup is today through Friday on SF and they seem to be doing just fine.

Very little snow loss from yesterday. The sleet from Monday night set a layer that prevented too much melt.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2018)

Your posting seems to be working fine...I now see 3 posts from you in a row in this thread :beer:

Good to hear about minimal snow loss. We now have a nice solid base of ice to build on! I'll be up Friday-Sunday this week lapping the groomers!

Nice to see they've fired up the guns on DS, Birdland, Murphy's and OG too from the latest report.


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## ducky (Jan 24, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Your posting seems to be working fine...I now see 3 posts from you in a row in this thread :beer:



Nick replied he was releasing them. Deleted down to one. Thanks.


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## El Bishop (Jan 25, 2018)

Anyone know or care to speculate about what the IKON pass means for SB's participation in the Mountain Collective and whether Alta, Jackson et al. will be in both?


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## TheArchitect (Jan 25, 2018)

I've read that the MCP will continue alongside the IKON pass.  I have the MCP for Sugarbush, Alta, Snowbird and Jackson Hole.  All but SB are on the IKON so it's going to be tough to decide what to buy.  If SB was on the IKON pass I think it'd be a slam dunk purchase for me.  As the resort list stands now it'll depend on pricing for the IKON.  If it's reasonable then I'll get the IKON and buy SB tickets at the window.

WinS, join the IKON pass!! ;-)


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## gonesquatchin (Jan 25, 2018)

Big factor to consider is how many days this pass will have at each mountain and how closely clustered they will be.  With SB as a home resort, it helps to have a few MCP mountains close together to limit driving.  Under the MCP this year, the only real option for a full week out west without too much driving was to fly into SLC and ski 2 days at each of Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin, plus the additional bonus day at one of them if you purchased the MCP in the spring.  If you didn't purchase in spring, you could still get 50% off day passes if you want to ski more than 2 days at any of them.  Will be interesting to see if Alta-Bird continue to be on the MC for 18-19 or if you have to jump on the Ikon pass and make it an Alta, Bird, DV trip.  The Ikon would also (probably) allow for a week in CO doing Steamboat, WP, Copper, and Eldora although there's probably more driving involved, especially factoring in airport locations.  Jackson Hole/Big Sky could be another possible 5-day trip.

I'm guessing the Ikon will be more expensive than the MLC is.  Also, the Max pass had 5 days at each mountain.  Will be interesting to see if Ikon stays in that range or drops down to something more along the lines of MC.

ETA:  You could also add Aspen to the CO loop.  One other wrinkle is that on the MLC, you only get 2 days total (plus maybe the bonus day) at the 4 Aspen Snowmass mountains.  Kinda bullshit.  If they would allow more days there, you could get a week in Aspen skiing all 4 mountains which would be another great trip option out West.

And I'm not sure what I'd like to see WinS do.  Depends on pricing, what mountains stay on MLC, and how many days at each mountain on the Ikon.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 25, 2018)

the ikon FAQ says MC will still exist. a large number of the MC resorts are gonna be on ikon (alta, bird, squaw, mammoth, jackson), so I think there will be a lot of overlap. maybe they keep the MC as 2 days per resort and ~$450, and the ikon gets 5 days a piece and is ~$700? if ikon is still the MC 2 days per place, it's not very attractive to me. too much driving. too much out of pocket lift ticket expenses.


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## gonesquatchin (Jan 25, 2018)

> the ikon FAQ says MC will still exist.



True, but it isn't clear to me if all the MLC mountains now on Ikon will stay on MLC, or maybe some of them become Ikon only.  Wouldn't surprise me if they did go with a 2-tier offering with Ikon being the (higher priced) Cadillac offering.  If that's the case, then SB would going for a ride in the Chevy if it just stays with the MLC.  I would guess these are all the things WinS will be/already has weighed against what Stowe/Epic will have to offer.


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

Big storm next weekend.  You heard it here first.


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## tumbler (Jan 26, 2018)

How is it that Mad River is 80% open and SB only has snowmaking trails open?  Not complaining, just curious.  I'm not looking for the rope to drop on Lower Birdland...


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 26, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Big storm next weekend.  You heard it here first.



Oh?


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## NYDB (Jan 26, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Big storm next weekend.  You heard it here first.



Second?


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

tumbler said:


> How is it that Mad River is 80% open and SB only has snowmaking trails open?  Not complaining, just curious.  I'm not looking for the rope to drop on Lower Birdland...


It's all about tolerance.  The Mad River people will ski on grass with rime ice on it.  They have to or they would not be open for large stretches.  Ski it if you can!


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

NY DirtBag said:


> Second?


The long range looks like the 3rd.  It is a long way off but you have to have something to look forward to.


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## Los (Jan 26, 2018)

tumbler said:


> How is it that Mad River is 80% open and SB only has snowmaking trails open?  Not complaining, just curious.  I'm not looking for the rope to drop on Lower Birdland...




Exactly!! I just don’t understand this. It’s very frustrating.


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

Los said:


> Exactly!! I just don’t understand this. It’s very frustrating.



If you guys saw what the natural trails looked like up there you would understand.  There is dirt and patches of ice with no snow on natural trails.  Mad river has no snow making so they have no choice.  Ski Dirt and rocks with ice or close the mountain.


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## slatham (Jan 26, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Big storm next weekend.  You heard it here first.



Yeah depending on which model of virtual reality your looking at. Yes certainly are indications but at 8 days out and the lack of forecast accuracy beyond 3 days this winter I think you're jumping the gun.


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

I put a caveat in my original email.  

We need a storm.  Stop bringing the bad vibes.


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## slatham (Jan 26, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I put a caveat in my original email.
> 
> We need a storm.  Stop bringing the bad vibes.



I hear you, but at this point nothing would bum me out more than something that looks real pretty on one of the models getting me all psyched up and then not happening. Personally I am more focused on whether this trough can go a bit more negative and pull more ashore from the coastal low.


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2018)

That one get a little better each day but all the way to VT is a long shot.  OK I will focus on that also.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2018)

Organgrinder - a tale of two guns!

Skied under the guns on og this morning. Top 75% or so is using the hkd towers. Beautiful dry silky smooth snow coming out. Awesome to ski. Tons of fun. Then on the bottom of og they are using the snologic ground guns. The difference is night and day. The snologics are putting out a wet sticky snow. And temps were single digits this morning...


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## tumbler (Jan 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> organgrinder - a tale of two guns!
> 
> Skied under the guns on og this morning. Top 75% or so is using the hkd towers. Beautiful dry silky smooth snow coming out. Awesome to ski. Tons of fun. Then on the bottom of og they are using the snologic ground guns. The difference is night and day. The snologics are putting out a wet sticky snow. And temps were single digits this morning...
> 
> ...



ugh.


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## tumbler (Jan 26, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It's all about tolerance.  The Mad River people will ski on grass with rime ice on it.  They have to or they would not be open for large stretches.  Ski it if you can!



Fair point.


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## machski (Jan 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Organgrinder - a tale of two guns!
> 
> Skied under the guns on og this morning. Top 75% or so is using the hkd towers. Beautiful dry silky smooth snow coming out. Awesome to ski. Tons of fun. Then on the bottom of og they are using the snologic ground guns. The difference is night and day. The snologics are putting out a wet sticky snow. And temps were single digits this morning...
> 
> ...


They don't have them set correctly then.  Snowlogics can and do put out a nice dry product on the correct step and flow.

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## WinS (Jan 26, 2018)

machski said:


> They don't have them set correctly then.  Snowlogics can and do put out a nice dry product on the correct step and flow.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



The Logics have a constant air flow of 8cfm and 4-6 stages.  As the temperatures fall you increase the stages and increase the GPM.  In the am they were running at the top stage.  At the temps  came up a bit and the sun hit them, the stage was reduced.  You probably hit those guns before they were reduced.  While I did not ski it myself today, I had several people stop and tell me how nice it was.  We are turning off now because the temps will rise overnight, but it should be an nice ungroomed ski in the morning.  If we get the winch  cat repaired in time ( a seal failed) we will winch out Stein's tonight.  This is a two shift effort. That means we will free groom Ripcord rather than winching it and also leave Sunrise ungroomed, but the sun should hit and soften it up.  Winds could be tough tomorrow.  They are forecasting 35-50 at the summit from the SW.  A bit better than last Saturday's WSW but still a potential morning of some windholds.


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## MikeTrainor (Jan 26, 2018)

I am not sure what this week brought but I found conditions better than expected last weekend. The snow making trails were in great shape. Besides a few wind holds Saturday it was a great weekend!


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 27, 2018)

*conditions*

should be about the same not sure it will really soften to spring like ,also windy again  one thing for sure.... the latte will be killer.   day of  the  week was tuesday soft fast   flat  all over 


MikeTrainor said:


> I am not sure what this week brought but I found conditions better than expected last weekend. The snow making trails were in great shape. Besides a few wind holds Saturday it was a great weekend!


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 27, 2018)

MikeTrainor said:


> I am not sure what this week brought but I found conditions better than expected last weekend. The snow making trails were in great shape. Besides a few wind holds Saturday it was a great weekend!



 I agree.  Skied North, and didn't find wind holds to be any problem.


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## rocks860 (Jan 27, 2018)

Trying to decide whether I should venture out tomorrow or wait until Monday. I have a quad pack and I don’t know if I will survive any more than 5 days max so I gotta be a little picky


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## Hawk (Jan 27, 2018)

Today was surprisingly good.  Especially North.   We even skied Back Diamond and top of Bravo and exterminator.  Wind blown snow filed in the cracks.


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## rocks860 (Jan 27, 2018)

Oh man I’m conflicted, I may just relax tomorrow and do Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday and try and hit up alchemist on Wednesday 


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## tumbler (Jan 28, 2018)

Win- can the snow report not always be a marketing fluff piece? I understand that you want people at the mountain but this morning was borderline dangerous. After reading 6:30am report about sweet corduroy I didn’t bother to read Mad River’s which described it as treacherous. Pretty accurate. The 9:15 snow report described it as firm.  I just think to be more accurate for safety would be prudent and appreciated so people know what to expect.


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2018)

Glad I decided not to go today then...


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## ducky (Jan 28, 2018)

Mt Ellen was a tale of two mountains today. Very nice corduroy off the Summit chair and dangerous ice below. Bad enough they closed Cliffs and Cruiser. Did laps on FIS, great if you stayed off the lunar back sides and kept to the fall line. BD also looked good early. On our way out we came down North Star (ok) to Straightshot, which was solid ice and required safety skidding the whole way. Aside from that the upper mountain was pretty good (surprisingly so).


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Today was surprisingly good.  Especially North.   We even skied Back Diamond and top of Bravo and exterminator.  Wind blown snow filed in the cracks.



Agreed. I was at North from 8-1 skiing nonstop on Saturday. Exterminator was surprisingly much better than I expected.



tumbler said:


> Win- can the snow report not always be a marketing fluff piece? I understand that you want people at the mountain but this morning was borderline dangerous. After reading 6:30am report about sweet corduroy I didn’t bother to read Mad River’s which described it as treacherous. Pretty accurate. The 9:15 snow report described it as firm.  I just think to be more accurate for safety would be prudent and appreciated so people know what to expect.



I'm not sure if I would go quite so far as to say it was borderline dangerous, but I do think the snow report sugar coats things a bit too much at times. After the rain last night I was expecting it to be pretty firm and it sure was. So my own expectations were pretty much in line with reality (but I totally agree with the argument that many people just look at the snow report for info). The significant amount of ruts and uneven surfaces on Murphy's, Birdland, and DS did surprise me though. The one bright spot today was Birch Run which was nicely groomed and pretty soft when it first opened (to be fair, I had what appeared to be only a couple sets of tracks on the trail before mine...by my second lap it wasn't nearly as good as the first run down it). I stopped skiing before 10 today though as conditions overall were just not too enjoyable.


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2018)

Well I’m gonna venture out tomorrow and see how it is. From the sounds of it I’m not expecting much


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Well I’m gonna venture out tomorrow and see how it is. From the sounds of it I’m not expecting much



It should be better than what some of us experienced today. No new rain plus grooming should help a lot. Then there's the added bonus of less skier traffic on Monday to help conditions hold up longer...


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## ducky (Jan 28, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Win- can the snow report not always be a marketing fluff piece? I understand that you want people at the mountain but this morning was borderline dangerous. After reading 6:30am report about sweet corduroy I didn’t bother to read Mad River’s which described it as treacherous. Pretty accurate. The 9:15 snow report described it as firm.  I just think to be more accurate for safety would be prudent and appreciated so people know what to expect.



Mad River Glen's snow report for today!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mu7LepHUMM&feature=youtu.be


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2018)

cdskier said:


> It should be better than what some of us experienced today. No new rain plus grooming should help a lot. Then there's the added bonus of less skier traffic on Monday to help conditions hold up longer...



Yeah I much prefer the midweek skiing precisely because of that. Anyone been to alchemist recently? How early is it a good idea to get there in the morning to not have to wait forever/get beer. I’m planning on going Wednesday morning


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## djd66 (Jan 28, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Agreed. I was at North from 8-1 skiing nonstop on Saturday. Exterminator was surprisingly much better than I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I would go quite so far as to say it was borderline dangerous, but I do think the snow report sugar coats things a bit too much at times. After the rain last night I was expecting it to be pretty firm and it sure was. So my own expectations were pretty much in line with reality (but I totally agree with the argument that many people just look at the snow report for info). The significant amount of ruts and uneven surfaces on Murphy's, Birdland, and DS did surprise me though. The one bright spot today was Birch Run which was nicely groomed and pretty soft when it first opened (to be fair, I had what appeared to be only a couple sets of tracks on the trail before mine...by my second lap it wasn't nearly as good as the first run down it). I stopped skiing before 10 today though as conditions overall were just not too enjoyable.



I heard a guy tore his ALC when he fell on ice in the parking lot this morning.   

The slopes were really firm today.  Everyone has a definition of dangerous skiing conditions.  Today was one of those days in my book.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 28, 2018)

I was suprised how bad the conditions were today.  Aside from Gatehouse the entire other side of Lincoln peak was pretty much unskiable.  I would consider my family very good skiers, we were coming down snowball and the conditions were pretty good, once you got to snowball/springfling intersection is was a bad.  We came down lower snowball and you had to slide ski down it. awful.  Many people were trying to sidestep down it.  Knowing there was a little bit of rain in the forecast for saturday evening, why didn't that do a late groom on the valley house side and open at 10a?    But on the plus side, the mtn skied pretty good on Saturday all things considered, Spillsville was worth skiing a few times.




cdskier said:


> Agreed. I was at North from 8-1 skiing nonstop on Saturday. Exterminator was surprisingly much better than I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I would go quite so far as to say it was borderline dangerous, but I do think the snow report sugar coats things a bit too much at times. After the rain last night I was expecting it to be pretty firm and it sure was. So my own expectations were pretty much in line with reality (but I totally agree with the argument that many people just look at the snow report for info). The significant amount of ruts and uneven surfaces on Murphy's, Birdland, and DS did surprise me though. The one bright spot today was Birch Run which was nicely groomed and pretty soft when it first opened (to be fair, I had what appeared to be only a couple sets of tracks on the trail before mine...by my second lap it wasn't nearly as good as the first run down it). I stopped skiing before 10 today though as conditions overall were just not too enjoyable.


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2018)

Man, I am not sure why Mother nature is so pissed off at the Bush.  That R#@ Saturday night could not have been more poorly timed.  You have to feel bad for them.  Lets hope that this week brings better fortune.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

Birch run was pretty good on the run I took, the groomed stuff was pretty smooth and not icy except for a portion at the bottom. Time to venture over to heavens gate


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## flakeydog (Jan 29, 2018)

I will ski anything and like Eric said on the MRG report, always better skiing than working.  Saturday was fine in my book, trails firm but you could dig in.  Sunday was less so to say the least.  We always manage just fine but there are some friends and family that visit that I may have steered them clear on Sunday.  I did see a few skiers having some "moments" on lower snowball.  I will say there were several bright spots over the weekend though. Black Diamond and Upper Bravo skied ok, nice to have something open in that category.  The temps were somewhat moderate, nice to be above zero for a while.  Hot Shot was the pick o' the day on Sunday, almost bumps on the skiers left side.  Finally, I have to give major props to the next generation of skiers here.  If anyone caught any of the mogul competition Saturday on Elbow, these kids were giving their all in about the toughest conditions I could imagine.  Keep it up!  On Sunday, some of my crew had to train Slalom on Spring Fling, again in less than ideal conditions.  Way to go, takes a lot of guts to go out and put yourself out there in these conditions.
-


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

Well ripcord was surprisingly decent, not as icy as I was expecting. Steins was ok, not really icy but very chunky. Top of snowball was very very nice but spring fling was god awful. And for once downspout was actually the easiest/nicest route to get to heavens gate. Lower jester leading to the lift was literally just an ice skating rink


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## mikec142 (Jan 29, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Anyone been to alchemist recently? How early is it a good idea to get there in the morning to not have to wait forever/get beer. I’m planning on going Wednesday morning



The Alchemist opens at 11am.  With the new brewery these days, there really isn't a wait.  Especially mid-week.    

There are two lines.  One line for tasting (they usually have Heady Topper, Focal Banger and Crusher).  I think the longest I've waited for a taste is 2-3 minutes.  The second line is to buy stuff (beer and Alchemist swag).  The past 7-8x that I've been there I haven't waited more than 5 minutes on the "to buy" line.

Unless you're a fanatic who wants to ask the guys at the brewery a million questions or who wants to just revel in the fact that you're tasting Heady Topper at the source, I can't see spending more that 20-30 minutes there.  A couple of minutes to taste, a couple of minutes to decide on what you're going to buy while milling around with all the other craft beer lovers, a couple of minutes to pay, and a couple of minutes to carry the stuff to the car.

I love it and make it a point to stop and grab some beer, cheese, and hot sauce almost every time we are up there, but it's always a quick in and out experience.

As a side note, if you're heading to the Alchemist from the Sugarbush area, there is a new coffee place on Route 100 just north of Ben and Jerry's called Vermont Artisan Coffee (you can't miss it, big red barn with a huge sign) that serves great coffee and pastries.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

heady topper is overrated


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> The Alchemist opens at 11am.  With the new brewery these days, there really isn't a wait.  Especially mid-week.
> 
> There are two lines.  One line for tasting (they usually have Heady Topper, Focal Banger and Crusher).  I think the longest I've waited for a taste is 2-3 minutes.  The second line is to buy stuff (beer and Alchemist swag).  The past 7-8x that I've been there I haven't waited more than 5 minutes on the "to buy" line.
> 
> ...



I’ll have to check that out. I drove up to Stowe last night as I was bored and I wanted to get some dinner at piecasso. Glad to here alchemist isn’t a mess, I’m used to going to treehouse and waiting an hour to get beer


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## djd66 (Jan 29, 2018)

We can complain til we are blue in the head about how much the skiing sucks now - we just need some F#@*ing snow!  I do truly feel bad for the Mtn this year - they just have not had any breaks. (Xmas + New Years being too cold and rain before MLK) If i were Win,... I would not want to be looking at any financials.  Let's just hope things turn around for part 2 of the season.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

heady topper is overrated. as far as Vermont IPAs go, I'd take foley brothers over alchemist every day.

eat at doc ponds.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> heady topper is overrated. as far as Vermont IPAs go, I'd take foley brothers over alchemist every day.
> 
> eat at doc ponds.



Disagree, I’ve had both and I wasn’t a fan of the foley brothers. Wasn’t bad but definitely wasn’t heady topper 


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

heady tastes kind of muddy to me. I can't exactly put my finger on what I don't like about it. dark, grassy, muddy are the words I use tho.

foley bros, particularly the prospect and the triple maiden, are bright, floral, citrusy. much more to my liking

on that same note, I think the focal banger is way better than the heady too, for the same reasons. heady gets a LOT of hype and I just don't think it lives up to the same

hill farmstead is obviously tops, but they aren't so IPA focused. they're my easy favorite for sour/farmhouse beers, and stouts/porters.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 29, 2018)

Heady is still a great beer.  There are just better beers in Vermont.  that being said I have had Heady in My fridge non-stop for 3 years. 

I like the Foley brothers Beer. If you haven' had any offerings from Foam, Burlington beer, or Frost, you should.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> heady tastes kind of muddy to me. I can't exactly put my finger on what I don't like about it. dark, grassy, muddy are the words I use tho.
> 
> foley bros, particularly the prospect and the triple maiden, are bright, floral, citrusy. much more to my liking
> 
> ...



Literally just finished an Edward at castle rock pub. Heady and Julius from treehouse are probably my 2 favorite iPas. I like the heady because it’s got the hop punch but doesn’t have that super bitter aftertaste. The Julius is much more citrusy but the heady is a double ipa and the Julius isn’t. If I remember correctly the focal banger is the single


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Heady is still a great beer.  There are just better beers in Vermont.  that being said I have had Heady in My fridge non-stop for 3 years.
> 
> I like the Foley brothers Beer. If you haven' had any offerings from Foam, Burlington beer, or Frost, you should.



love frost and btv beer. have not tried/heard of foam. 

I got two 750s from back acre last week and I'm eager to try. will try one soon and let the other age

Florence from HF may be my favorite beer in the world. I'm a sucker for a nice tart farmhouse ale. suarez near Hudson NY makes great beers in that style too.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Heady is still a great beer.  There are just better beers in Vermont.  that being said I have had Heady in My fridge non-stop for 3 years.
> 
> I like the Foley brothers Beer. If you haven' had any offerings from Foam, Burlington beer, or Frost, you should.



I had the it’s complicated being a wizard from bbc and it was very good but there was a whole lot of sediment in the bottom of the can which was pretty gross


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 29, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I had the it’s complicated being a wizard from bbc and it was very good but there was a whole lot of sediment in the bottom of the can which was pretty gross
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



that's just yeast.  Not gross its what made that beer be beer!  With the unfiltered "Northeast" style beer, it doesn't hurt to turn the beer over before opening. 

@krusty...  Foam is in downtowns Burlington.  Excellent beer.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

yea, with unfiltered beers, just give the can/bottle a roll to spread the sediment. it's not "gross" tho I can see why some people find it offputting.


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> love frost and btv beer. have not tried/heard of foam.
> 
> I got two 750s from back acre last week and I'm eager to try. will try one soon and let the other age
> 
> Florence from HF may be my favorite beer in the world. I'm a sucker for a nice tart farmhouse ale. suarez near Hudson NY makes great beers in that style too.


Yes.  Hill Farmstead, Frost and I also like Fiddlehead a lot.  Also Sip-o-sunshine.  Lawsons bought the rent-all building in Waitsfield and is building a welcome center similar to the Alchemist in Stowe.  It will be interesting to see what different offerings they will have.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

Lawson's is doing a lot of their brewing off-site in Connecticut now. noticed this when I bought a sip o sunshine in Brooklyn and it had a small print notice that it was canned in ct


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2018)

In order to keep up with demand they have been using that facility in CT.  Not sure what their deal was.  I think the main purpose of buy the Rent-all building was to move production back up to VT.  I am sure all the details will come out.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2018)

any of you guys intending on hitting this on march 24? theres a 1-4 pm session and a 4-7 pm session. I will probably sign up for the second session and hit this hard after a day of skiing K. and then i'll roll myself to the hotel down the access road. 

https://www.vermontbrewers.com/festivals/vermont-brewers-festival-killington/


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## ducky (Jan 29, 2018)

8 laps on Steins today, then some Ripcord and Jester. Steins was best, groomed and edgable. 20k vert in 3 hours, day 61.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2018)

ducky said:


> 8 laps on Steins today, then some Ripcord and Jester. Steins was best, groomed and edgable. 20k vert in 3 hours, day 61.



I actually preferred ripcord to steins when I skied it this morning. At least when I skied steins there was a lot of chunky frozen snow


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## tumbler (Jan 29, 2018)

ducky said:


> 8 laps on Steins today, then some Ripcord and Jester. Steins was best, groomed and edgable. 20k vert in 3 hours, day 61.



Glad it was edgable today.


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## tumbler (Jan 29, 2018)

Hawk said:


> In order to keep up with demand they have been using that facility in CT.  Not sure what their deal was.  I think the main purpose of buy the Rent-all building was to move production back up to VT.  I am sure all the details will come out.



I think the Sip and Super session will be staying in CT so they don't have to put in a large canning facility to handle the demand.  I recall small batch brewing and a resturant, outdoor area at the rent-all site.


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Man, I am not sure why Mother nature is so pissed off at the Bush.  That R#@ Saturday night could not have been more poorly timed.  You have to feel bad for them.  Lets hope that this week brings better fortune.



Yup. We got more light rain  and it lasted longer than the forecast. What was groomed early turned out to be the worst.  I skied Stein's twice first thing  on Saturday and for strong skiers it wasn't bad, but it you could not set an edge it was not a lot of fun.  Interestingly the worst trail of the day in my opinion was Lower Snowball. The place to be yesterday was on North Lynx and The Gatehouse trails.  I did not get to ME on Sunday but enjoyed it there Saturday.

Today, was a lot better. First runs down Stein's were soft and nice and all other trails were greatly improved other than Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge.  The groomer's had a tough time ripping into the hard pack. Tonight when the temps fall we will be blowing snow on Upper Jester, and Lower Snowball and Racer's edge. That should make a big difference.

January is almost over. Let's hope that Feburary, March and April deliver what they historically have.


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> January is almost over. Let's hope that Feburary, March and April deliver what they historically have.



Yes, let's hope! We deserve it after the January we've had!


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## Orca (Jan 29, 2018)

Is like Heady Tupperware better than Budweiser? Or like Miller Lite? Must be good if so, bro


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## HowieT2 (Jan 30, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yes, let's hope! We deserve it after the January we've had!



just saw the snow report.  Never thought I’d see the words “refresh” and “lower snowball” in the same sentence.  Bravo.

all the Lawson’s cans are from ct.  been doing that for at least 3-4 years.  And they are available everywhere.

glad to hear I’m not the only one who is not totally in love with heady topper.


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## Hawk (Jan 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I think the Sip and Super session will be staying in CT so they don't have to put in a large canning facility to handle the demand.  I recall small batch brewing and a resturant, outdoor area at the rent-all site.


I was told that the permit did not mention that a restaurant was going in and this was to be strictly a tasting and production facility.  I am sure that someone out there has the intel.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 30, 2018)

Hawk said:


> In order to keep up with demand they have been using that facility in CT.  Not sure what their deal was.  I think the main purpose of buy the Rent-all building was to move production back up to VT.  I am sure all the details will come out.


The details have already been out.

https://www.valleyreporter.com/stor...st-to-open-brewery-tasting-room-in-waitsfield


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## cdskier (Jan 30, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> The details have already been out.
> 
> https://www.valleyreporter.com/stor...st-to-open-brewery-tasting-room-in-waitsfield



Wow...April 2016. I forgot it was so long ago that was announced.


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## tumbler (Jan 30, 2018)

Copied from a more recent article:

The expanded Lawson’s Finest Liquids will brew in a high-ceilinged warehouse built in 2004 that Valley Rent-All used to dry huge tents it rented out for weddings and other large-scale events. The adjacent building from the 1980s that the equipment-rental business used as its showroom will be torn down according to plans and replaced with a new building housing an 80-seat taproom, an outdoor beer garden, retail space and offices. The taproom would offer light food including cheese, bread and salami.


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## tumbler (Jan 30, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> just saw the snow report.  Never thought I’d see the words “refresh” and “lower snowball” in the same sentence.  Bravo.
> 
> all the Lawson’s cans are from ct.  been doing that for at least 3-4 years.  And they are available everywhere.
> 
> glad to hear I’m not the only one who is not totally in love with heady topper.



I hope Lower Grinder is next for refresh.

Focal Banger #1
Sip #2
Heady #3


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jan 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Copied from a more recent article:
> The taproom would offer light food including cheese, bread and salami.



What? You got to make your own sandwich? So, they gonna just sling a plate of meat and cheese your way and say "finish it yo self"? How much you think that gonna cost? I predict $22, without mustard. Mustard be extra $$......


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I hope Lower Grinder is next for refresh.
> 
> Focal Banger #1
> Sip #2
> Heady #3



I’m not a huge sip fan. It’s good but it go heady, focal, sip. My opinion may be tainted as I’ve had a lot of the sip that’s canned down at two roads and for some reason it doesn’t seem as good as the stuff up here. I will say Julius is probably right up there with heady, it’s amazing


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## kingslug (Jan 30, 2018)

Heady Topper is still my favorite IPA...
At my favorite bar in NYC I heard a can pop..hmm...some reason I figured it was Heady. Gave the bartender..the look..she knew, and soon I had a glass. Its like gold over here.


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Heady Topper is still my favorite IPA...
> At my favorite bar in NYC I heard a can pop..hmm...some reason I figured it was Heady. Gave the bartender..the look..she knew, and soon I had a glass. Its like gold over here.



Just finished up at the brewery. Got tastes of heady, crusher and focal banger and left with 3 4 packs of heady, 1 of focal banger, one of luscious (British imperial stout) and 1 of el jefe (dark ipa). I owe some people payment for helping me move so sadly I won’t be drinking all of it


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Heady Topper is still my favorite IPA...
> At my favorite bar in NYC I heard a can pop..hmm...some reason I figured it was Heady. Gave the bartender..the look..she knew, and soon I had a glass. Its like gold over here.



If you can ever get your hands on Julius from treehouse do it. I have a feeling you’ll enjoy it immensely.


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## bzrperfspec77 (Jan 30, 2018)

Wow... I came on here to catch up on the Bush's status for next weekend's trip and read the past couple pages... For some reason, I am really thirsty for a beer right now. :beer:


Treehouse>Alchemist - Although Focal is in my Top 10


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## mtsnow123 (Jan 30, 2018)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> What? You got to make your own sandwich? So, they gonna just sling a plate of meat and cheese your way and say "finish it yo self"? How much you think that gonna cost? I predict $22, without mustard. Mustard be extra $$......



I've heard from a MRV local that they don't want to step on the toes of the theater's restaurant (across the street), which has quite good food.


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2018)

mtsnow123 said:


> I've heard from a MRV local that they don't want to step on the toes of the theater's restaurant (across the street), which has quite good food.



Love that theater. The food and drink is quite good


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## djd66 (Jan 30, 2018)

mtsnow123 said:


> I've heard from a MRV local that they don't want to step on the toes of the theater's restaurant (across the street), which has quite good food.



That sounds like a great business plan.  They are opening a restaurant, but they don't want to make too good so they compete with another restaurant.


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## rocks860 (Jan 30, 2018)

So the snow report says no groomed route down from heavens gate. Does that mean they made snow on jester then just left it ungroomed? Or was snow made on the lower part of jester?


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## cdskier (Jan 30, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> So the snow report says no groomed route down from heavens gate. Does that mean they made snow on jester then just left it ungroomed?



Yes, that would be the most likely scenario.


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## shadyjay (Jan 30, 2018)

Correct.  I did not make it up there today, but saw the guns going on upper Jester.  They had moved them around to hit various parts of the trail and to have enough capacity to light up Lower SB/Racer's Edge.  

Was pleasantly surprised with my run on Downspout at 3 in the afternoon!


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## kingslug (Jan 31, 2018)

Now I can't wait to get back up there..for the beer..lol....


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## Hawk (Jan 31, 2018)

djd66 said:


> That sounds like a great business plan.  They are opening a restaurant, but they don't want to make too good so they compete with another restaurant.


In my opinion that is not the reason why they are not considering a full restaurant.  At the Sugarbush Brewfest last spring, we asked the people at the Lawsons tent about the new brewery and if they were gong to have a restaurant. Their response was that restaurants are hard to make work and be profitable and there are so many good establishments in the valley already.  They also said they are Brewers and will stick to what they really know.  They will offer Charcuterie plates and breads so that people will have something to put in their stomach while tasting.


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## tumbler (Jan 31, 2018)

Hawk said:


> In my opinion that is not the reason why they are not considering a full restaurant.  At the Sugarbush Brewfest last spring, we asked the people at the Lawsons tent about the new brewery and if they were gong to have a restaurant. Their response was that restaurants are hard to make work and be profitable and there are so many good establishments in the valley already.  They also said they are Brewers and will stick to what they really know.  They will offer Charcuterie plates and breads so that people will have something to put in their stomach while tasting.



That makes sense but bread and cheese don't really cut it for bewery food.  Maybe they will set something up with Big Picture where people can order food from them and they will run it over to them.


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## HD333 (Jan 31, 2018)

tumbler said:


> That makes sense but bread and cheese don't really cut it for bewery food.  Maybe they will set something up with Big Picture where people can order food from them and they will run it over to them.



A tap room near me does bring your own food and they do small cheese and meat plates.  They also have food trucks from time to time.  Very successful set up. 
Basically they focus on the beer. Adding a restaurant while good for the consumer sounds like it would be a nightmare for the owners and take away from the brewing. 


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

Stony creek in ct does bring your own food and usually has a food truck outside. They also let you get food delivered to the brewery from wherever.


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2018)

Hawk said:


> In my opinion that is not the reason why they are not considering a full restaurant.  At the Sugarbush Brewfest last spring, we asked the people at the Lawsons tent about the new brewery and if they were gong to have a restaurant. Their response was that restaurants are hard to make work and be profitable and *there are so many good establishments in the valley already.  They also said they are Brewers and will stick to what they really know*.  They will offer Charcuterie plates and breads so that people will have something to put in their stomach while tasting.



This is what I love about the MRV. A lot of the people genuinely care about their neighbors and don't want to step on other's toes. 



tumbler said:


> That makes sense but bread and cheese don't really cut it for bewery food.  Maybe they will set something up with Big Picture where people can order food from them and they will run it over to them.



Bread, meats, and cheeses is fine for me to go along with beer tasting...I don't need a full meal. I don't recall Hill Farmstead having a restaurant on site last time I Was there, yet they were plenty busy with just beer tasting.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 31, 2018)

Plenty of breweries go for the charcuterie route instead of a full service restaurant to control costs and mitigate risk.  There are a few here on the NH Seacoast who do that.  

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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2018)

cdskier said:


> This is what I love about the MRV. A lot of the people genuinely care about their neighbors and don't want to step on other's toes.
> 
> 
> 
> Bread, meats, and cheeses is fine for me to go along with beer tasting...I don't need a full meal. I don't recall Hill Farmstead having a restaurant on site last time I Was there, yet they were plenty busy with just beer tasting.



hill had some guys shucking oysters, and some food truck, the last two times I went. food available but from independent proprietors allowed to sell at HF


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## mtsnow123 (Jan 31, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Plenty of breweries go for the charcuterie route instead of a full service restaurant to control costs and mitigate risk.  There are a few here on the NH Seacoast who do that.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



If you want to see this done well, Foam Brewers in Burlington, VT. They have grilled cheeses one day of the week, but the meat and cheese boards are all from local farms and well worth the money. All of the breweries in Burlington on Pine Street (excluding Citizen Cider), have lite fare, i.e. hot dog, braut, or pretzels. If you make good beer, make it, not food.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2018)

mtsnow123 said:


> If you make good beer, make it, not food.



unless you are prohibition pig, in which case, make EVERYTHING


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 31, 2018)

If you may recall, Heady Topper was founded as a beer occasionally brewed in the Alchemist restaurant, which became so popular, they decided to brew/can it separately. Sadly, hurricane Irene decimated Waterbury, and the restaurant was lost, so the Alchemist's HT continued as a brewery alone.


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## tumbler (Jan 31, 2018)

mtsnow123 said:


> If you want to see this done well, Foam Brewers in Burlington, VT. They have grilled cheeses one day of the week, but the meat and cheese boards are all from local farms and well worth the money. All of the breweries in Burlington on Pine Street (excluding Citizen Cider), have lite fare, i.e. *hot dog, braut, or pretzels*. If you make good beer, make it, not food.



This is all I was thinking.  Perfect beer food.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

Well so far gatehouse area snow has been pretty nice, stuff off of bravo not so much. Also it’s pretty frigid


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## tumbler (Jan 31, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Well so far gatehouse area snow has been pretty nice, stuff off of bravo not so much. Also it’s pretty frigid
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



go get the lower snowball freshies!!


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## bzrperfspec77 (Jan 31, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> unless you are prohibition pig, in which case, make EVERYTHING



I still go with HF for beer when I am at Pro Pig. Great Food.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

tumbler said:


> go get the lower snowball freshies!!



Can confirm, lower snowball freshies are legit. Unfortunately I couldn’t see out of my goggles after a few runs


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## tumbler (Jan 31, 2018)

Has anyone else noticed the camera on the lift shack at the top of HG that looks down Ripcord?  Could we get that shot added to the website/app?  Would love to have the big view.


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Has anyone else noticed the camera on the lift shack at the top of HG that looks down Ripcord?  Could we get that shot added to the website/app?  Would love to have the big view.



Yup...been wondering what it is there for. I'd love more camera angles on the website that show more of the mountain than just lift lines. Don't get me wrong...seeing lift lines is great too for that one very specific purpose, but it would be nice to have some shots showing more of the mountain itself.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

If they could just have the sound from that camera I could judge by scratchiness whether I want to risk my life going down


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## tumbler (Jan 31, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> If they could just have the sound from that camera I could judge by scratchiness whether I want to risk my life going down
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You have the whole ride up to make that decision.  Bail to Jester.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

Could save the ride up


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2018)

Speaking of which jester was a disaster today. They made a ton of whales and just let them there but they were in super awkward spots


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2018)

They are "Letting the snow dry".   LOL   As you know this is a popular Sugarbush only method.


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## Newpylong (Feb 1, 2018)

It's actuallyan industry wide method. If you push them out before they leach your surface will set up and not soften until spring. Some crews move the guns around constantly some make whales.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2018)

Well it’s definitely snowing. Over at mount Ellen today. Upper mountain ain’t bad at all but the run out to the base is brutal, I dunno if it’s this snow or what they made previously but it’s super sticky. So you’ll go from basically ice to snow that just stops your skis over and over again. Does a number on the legs. But the snow is coming down good so it should definitely help


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Well it’s definitely snowing. Over at mount Ellen today. Upper mountain ain’t bad at all but the run out to the base is brutal, I dunno if it’s this snow or what they made previously but it’s super sticky. So you’ll go from basically ice to snow that just stops your skis over and over again. Does a number on the legs. But the snow is coming down good so it should definitely help



Honestly a "sticky" snow is more of what we need at the moment rather than dry powder...


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Honestly a "sticky" snow is more of what we need at the moment rather than dry powder...



Oh I didn’t say it won’t be good for the mountain, just that it’s going to give me a heart attack


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## Higgl (Feb 1, 2018)

Has anyone who's been up at SB recently heard any rumblings about the Mountain Collective or Ikon for next year? Win, any insight to add? 

I've heard from Okemo that they are 'working' on something.


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## JimG. (Feb 1, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Well it’s definitely snowing. Over at mount Ellen today. Upper mountain ain’t bad at all but the run out to the base is brutal, I dunno if it’s this snow or what they made previously but it’s super sticky. So you’ll go from basically ice to snow that just stops your skis over and over again. Does a number on the legs. But the snow is coming down good so it should definitely help
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wax your skis.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2018)

HA HA HA    Yup


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## sugarbushskier (Feb 1, 2018)

Skied SB (south only) yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I thought.  Yes, Sunrise was a bit harrowing, but I have a great video of my one or two turns down the slide as it was icy as shit!

Steins was the ROTD as we did it a few times TTB as the snow was edgeable and fast. Ripcord was smooth, but you had to stay towards the edges for any control.  The amount of snow they made on Jester and Snowball was quite impressive, dry and easy to ski.  Like I said, it was a better day than I imagined. Even Sleeper skied better than many other times I'd skied it.

Hill Farmstead Edwards was the beer that went down too easy afterwards in the CRP. 

If you're debating getting out, it's not terrible.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2018)

sugarbushskier said:


> Skied SB (south only) yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I thought.  Yes, Sunrise was a bit harrowing, but I have a great video of my one or two turns down the slide as it was icy as shit!
> 
> Steins was the ROTD as we did it a few times TTB as the snow was edgeable and fast. Ripcord was smooth, but you had to stay towards the edges for any control.  The amount of snow they made on Jester and Snowball was quite impressive, dry and easy to ski.  Like I said, it was a better day than I imagined. Even Sleeper skied better than many other times I'd skied it.
> 
> ...



I forgot about sleeper, it was pretty decent yesterday. I was very impressed with the snow they were making on lower snowball, very nice. Eating dinner at peasant tonight and gonna ski Lincoln peak tomorrow. Mount Ellen today wasn’t bad but none of the trails that really interest me there are open at the moment. I took north star a few times today as it was kinda off the beaten path and it skied very well but there weren’t a whole lot of options on the way down.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Eating dinner at peasant tonight



My favorite...I've been there the past 2 weekends.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> My favorite...I've been there the past 2 weekends.



Went with the pâté to start and it was glorious. Going with the bolognese for dinner. I try to get here at least once whenever I’m here


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Went with the pâté to start and it was glorious. Going with the bolognese for dinner. I try to get here at least once whenever I’m here



I'm there so often Chris practically considers me family. Last weekend I had 1/2 Bolognese and 1/2 of the pasta special he had at the time for dinner (Orecchiette with Arugula pesto and house-made chicken sausage). So good...


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'm there so often Chris practically considers me family. Last weekend I had 1/2 Bolognese and 1/2 of the pasta special he had at the time for dinner (Orecchiette with Arugula pesto and house-made chicken sausage). So good...



Well all I can say is that was the best meal
I’ve had in quite some time 


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2018)

Summit snow stake has a sight for sore eyes this morning...keep it coming!!


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Summit snow stake has a sight for sore eyes this morning...keep it coming!!



Beautiful for sure! About time!


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2018)

So today already makes up for the rest of the week


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 2, 2018)

today was sick got an early start lots of uncut runs right til lunch  ,the  wind really picked up but refreshed runs nicely  did not go in woods didnt need to trals were prime.i did a grandstand and slashed the shit of of it great day


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2018)

^i wish i could ski weekdays more often. skiing empty runs of powder all day without needing to go to the woods for fresh is dreamy.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2018)

Too bad this snow didn't happen last week when I was up on Friday. I'm sure tomorrow should still be pretty good though.


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2018)

I hope everyone stays home for the Super Bowl


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2018)

First chair yesterday for us!  A Very good day.  We went straight up to Heavens Gate and skied Ripchord, Organgrinder and Spills.  8" of awesomeness.  Temps dropped all day and the wind closed HG, Bravo and even the VH quad by 2:00.  I have to admit some of the best skiing was poaching the closed domino and moonshine later on.  5 degrees and a light breeze this morning.  Looking out this morning at 8:20 and they are 1/2 full on the main lot.  Going to be a busy day.


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2018)

Hawk said:


> First chair yesterday for us!  A Very good day.  We went straight up to Heavens Gate and skied Ripchord, Organgrinder and Spills.  8" of awesomeness.  Temps dropped all day and the wind closed HG, Bravo and even the VH quad by 2:00.  I have to admit some of the best skiing was poaching the closed domino and moonshine later on.  5 degrees and a light breeze this morning.  Looking out this morning at 8:20 and they are 1/2 full on the main lot.  Going to be a busy day.



I drove by LP on my way out of town at around 945 and it was packed


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## shadyjay (Feb 3, 2018)

Hawk said:


> First chair yesterday for us!  A Very good day.  We went straight up to Heavens Gate and skied Ripchord, Organgrinder and Spills.  8" of awesomeness.  Temps dropped all day and the wind closed HG, Bravo and even the VH quad by 2:00.  I have to admit some of the best skiing was poaching the closed domino and moonshine later on.  5 degrees and a light breeze this morning.  Looking out this morning at 8:20 and they are 1/2 full on the main lot.  Going to be a busy day.



I will say this... ski patrol is pretty generous with trail openings, meaning that if they have a trail closed, its closed for a reason.  I would suggest NOT ducking the rope on Lower Birdland or taking any woods run that would lead you out onto that trail, as it was blue ice, prior to the 6" we got yesterday.  Just take that into consideration before ducking any ropes.  I doubt some southern mountains would drop ropes on just 6" of pow.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 3, 2018)

Skied today, what a difference from last week.  Mtn skied great.  I thought Paradise skied fun, spillsville was pretty soft when I skied it.  Sunrise  and birch were in great shape.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2018)

shadyjay said:


> I will say this... ski patrol is pretty generous with trail openings, meaning that if they have a trail closed, its closed for a reason.  I would suggest NOT ducking the rope on Lower Birdland or taking any woods run that would lead you out onto that trail, as it was blue ice, prior to the 6" we got yesterday.  Just take that into consideration before ducking any ropes.  I doubt some southern mountains would drop ropes on just 6" of pow.


That's right! Everybody listen to Shady.


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I drove by LP on my way out of town at around 945 and it was packed



Honestly for a Saturday it wasn't crowded at all on the mountain. I don't know if I waited more than 2-3 minutes for a lift at Lincoln... Maybe the cold kept some people in the lodges/bars.


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## shadyjay (Feb 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Honestly for a Saturday it wasn't crowded at all on the mountain. I don't know if I waited more than 2-3 minutes for a lift at Lincoln... Maybe the cold kept some people in the lodges/bars.



Having the upper mountain lifts open helps a lot with the lift lines, especially at Bravo and Gate House.  Had Heaven's Gate and North Lynx been on windhold, the base area lift lines would've been a lot longer.  Today, that was the case, but it was Super Bowl Sunday and not as busy as yesterday was, so lift lines weren't that much of an issue.



Hawk said:


> That's right! Everybody listen to Shady.



I did hear today from multiple sources that a couple passes got pulled from those who skied closed terrain.  Just throwing that out there... patrol is watching!


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## Orca (Feb 4, 2018)

shadyjay said:


> Having the upper mountain lifts open helps a lot with the lift lines, especially at Bravo and Gate House.  Had Heaven's Gate and North Lynx been on windhold, the base area lift lines would've been a lot longer.  Today, that was the case, but it was Super Bowl Sunday and not as busy as yesterday was, so lift lines weren't that much of an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I did hear today from multiple sources that a couple passes got pulled from those who skied closed terrain.  Just throwing that out there... patrol is watching!



Arrest Hawk's line-ducking ass, or at least pull his pass! His real name is Carl Spackler. I think he is from Wisconsin or something. Google him, you can find him!


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## Hawk (Feb 5, 2018)

LOL  I never thought of myself as a greens keeper but OK.  Getting my pass pulled would be a fair consequence.  I will take that as the cost of doing that type of business.


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## djd66 (Feb 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> That's right! Everybody listen to Shady.



Skiing closed trails is up to you.  But why do you feel the need to brag about it on a public forum?


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## Hawk (Feb 5, 2018)

You are right. No more reports.  But it was not so much of a brag but more of a report of good conditions.  I will tell you this, I skied much more sketchy conditions on the lower half of Castlerock yesterday then I did on those 2 runs.  Castlerock had dirt, rocks showing, fast grass.  You name it.  There is no real reasoning on trail openings in my opinion.  They are random as best as I can tell.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I will tell you this, I skied much more sketchy conditions on the lower half of Castlerock yesterday then I did on those 2 runs.  Castlerock had dirt, rocks showing, fast grass.  You name it.  There is no real reasoning on trail openings in my opinion.  They are random as best as I can tell.



Well at least Castlerock has a hike required which would in theory weed out many people from attempting it and restricts it more to the real "hardcore" skiers that can handle it.


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## djd66 (Feb 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Well at least Castlerock has a hike required which would in theory weed out many people from attempting it and restricts it more to the real "hardcore" skiers that can handle it.



Castle Rock was open for hiking.  There were Blazer groups skiing there.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Castle Rock was open for hiking.  There were Blazer groups skiing there.



Right... Isn't that what I said? Hawk said there were some sketchy conditions lower down on CR meanwhile he felt some of the closed trails on LP itself were in better condition. My response was basically that maybe they are more willing to let sketchy CR conditions slide and allow it to be opened since the access via only hiking will keep more inexperienced skiers away to begin with.


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## WinS (Feb 5, 2018)

shadyjay said:


> I will say this... ski patrol is pretty generous with trail openings, meaning that if they have a trail closed, its closed for a reason.  I would suggest NOT ducking the rope on Lower Birdland or taking any woods run that would lead you out onto that trail, as it was blue ice, prior to the 6" we got yesterday.  Just take that into consideration before ducking any ropes.  I doubt some southern mountains would drop ropes on just 6" of pow.



Trail openings are not random decisions.  This is the sole responsibility of Ski Patrol and they assess it for the safety of our guests as well as patrol if they are called in to help an injury. Those hiking to Castlerock are knowledgeable and capable.  Opening other trails which can be accessed by all levels of ability is another issue.  We have a very strict published policy about skiing closed trails. Get caught the first time and you lose your pass for a week.  Keep doing it and you lose it for the season.  As Shady says we are as aggressive as any opening trails so they a trail is not open for a good reason. Please respect our policy!


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## Orca (Feb 8, 2018)

I can attest firsthand that WINTER IS BACK!!!

Today was the best ski day I've had in quite some while, and certainly this season. The snow is of excellent quality. It is dry and soft, but has a density against which you can push the skis hard with a beautiful, snappy rebound. The skiing is very "live" -- nothing wimpy or dead about this snow -- and you could push it fast with a lot of power. It was like dancing out there.


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## caribchakita (Feb 9, 2018)

thoughts on Sugarbush Saturday, before the rain..tips, recs on eats, parking and more are welcome...I think Sugarbush is my pick..


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 9, 2018)

Parking is rather easy at Lincoln Peak.  They have a "shuttle" if you wish. I've never had to park too far from the lodge there.  I also have never been there on a crazy busy weekend either.  I'll let others speak to the local eats.  Its been a while for me, but there are lots of places around that are great!


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## Orca (Feb 11, 2018)

Sitting in the ski house right now having a late breakfast and talking with my peeps. The question came up: Why was the Sugar Shuttle renamed the Jitney? Everyone in the house thinks Sugar Shuttle fits Sugarbush better, as well as sounds better because it alliterates. No one particularly likes the name Jitney. We suspect the shuttle was renamed for a violation of a trademark word registered in the sugar industry or perhaps the porn industry! Anyone actually know the story?


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## benski (Feb 11, 2018)

Orca said:


> We suspect the shuttle was renamed for a violation of a trademark word registered in the sugar industry or perhaps the porn industry! Anyone actually know the story?



That would be funny but nobody trademarked the fraze "Sugar Shuttle."


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## Hawk (Feb 12, 2018)

A jitney is a taxi or a share ride that competed with street cars back in the early 1900's.  I doubt that there was a copyright issue and more they just wanted to use a nostalgic name.  I have no personal issue with the naming convention.  I hardly ever use it.  Actually my group was just saying that the use of the "Sugar" theme is getting old.


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## Hawk (Feb 12, 2018)

The hounds were out this weekend in search of pow.  We saw people everywhere.  In the woods and in slidebrook, people were hitting it hard.  We did run into two people that had a run in with buried trees and/or stumps.  They were hurt but could make it out.  Both were intermediate at best and they were alone in the woods.  If you are venturing out please be aware that the woods are still very thin and somewhat sketchy in places.  If you are not an expert in keeping your tips up and making quick adjustments, I would think twice before venturing out.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 12, 2018)

Orca said:


> The question came up: Why was the Sugar Shuttle renamed the Jitney? Everyone in the house thinks Sugar Shuttle fits Sugarbush better, as well as sounds better because it alliterates. No one particularly likes the name Jitney.



Yeah, why not call it the *Sugar Bus* ?


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> If you are venturing out please be aware that the woods are still very thin and somewhat sketchy in places.  If you are not an expert in keeping your tips up and making quick adjustments, I would think twice before venturing out.



I saw two very shaky-looking skiers at the top of the woods off of Exterminator snowplowing their way down the more open part and though to myself 'this doesn't look good'....


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The hounds were out this weekend in search of pow.  We saw people everywhere.  In the woods and in slidebrook, people were hitting it hard.  We did run into two people that had a run in with buried trees and/or stumps.  They were hurt but could make it out.  Both were intermediate at best and they were alone in the woods.  If you are venturing out please be aware that the woods are still very thin and somewhat sketchy in places.  If you are not an expert in keeping your tips up and making quick adjustments, I would think twice before venturing out.



Good advice. Too much pent up demand for the woods so people are jumping in when they see a chance. It is a shame that just as things are starting to turn around and get good that Mother Nature is deciding to throw us a few more curveballs.

It was quite crowded this weekend, but Saturday was really nice (other than the visibility higher up being an issue at times). I was at Mt Ellen and any of the natural runs I skied were in good shape. Even lower elevation trails like Semi Tough and the Lower FIS runout were well covered. Such a shame that all those good conditions are now a bit locked up and frozen over.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Even lower elevation trails like Semi Tough and the Lower FIS runout were well covered.



People actually ski Lower FIS?


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> People actually ski Lower FIS?



I'm perfectly content for others to stay away...one of the reasons it tends to hold up so well for quite a while after it snows. I even enjoy the bit of a workout you can get from the runout at the bottom. Shocking I know!


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## flakeydog (Feb 12, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> People actually ski Lower FIS?



Actually they don't.  It's just an old urban legend.  If the trail "looks" open, just keep going by.  Do not let the utter lack of skier traffic fool you, it is probably not worth it.  People have been know to go down there never to be heard from again.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 12, 2018)

Sorry,  I guess I posed the wrong question.  I should have asked, "People actually ski Lower FIS more than once?"


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## Hawk (Feb 12, 2018)

I find myself down there quite a bit.  I ski the ridge and woods all the time that lead to traverse.


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Sorry,  I guess I posed the wrong question.  I should have asked, "People actually ski Lower FIS more than once?"



In a single day? Maybe not. But then again if we're 100% open I'm trying to ski a different trail every run anyway. If you mean in a season or lifetime...then again see my previous comments and feel free to stay away.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 12, 2018)

I was fortunate to ski at SB Thur thru Sun.  The skiing was excellent.  Not sure if anyone has had the opportunity to ski Rumble first thing after a storm but first thing Thursday morning it was incredible.  You could actually ski the fall line of Rumble early Thursday morning.  non of the Volkswagen sized rocks were rutted out.  What an incredible run when you can actually ski the fall line on Rumble.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 13, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> I was fortunate to ski at SB Thur thru Sun.  The skiing was excellent.  Not sure if anyone has had the opportunity to ski Rumble first thing after a storm but first thing Thursday morning it was incredible.  You could actually ski the fall line of Rumble early Thursday morning.  non of the Volkswagen sized rocks were rutted out.  What an incredible run when you can actually ski the fall line on Rumble.


  How was it skiing on Sunday?


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 13, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> How was it skiing on Sunday?



Everything above 2500 feet skied midwinter on Sunday.  Rumble itself was rutted out by the end of day Thursday.


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## crank (Feb 13, 2018)

We skied Sugarbush Saturday and Mt Ellen Sunday.  Everything up high skied really well Sunday.  We left around 1 when it started raining.
Sugarbush was fairly crowded Saturday. We only made 1 run on Castlerock Saturday because they had a jr. extreme skiing comp on Liftline and the lift line got really long, at least a half hour probably longer, behind us.  We skied Middle Earth which was skiing pretty well.  Snow on North Lynx runs was super good Saturday afternoon.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 13, 2018)

FYI, you skied Sugarbush both days.


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## mtsnow123 (Feb 13, 2018)

I hope tomorrow is riding well. It seems the above freezing temps will be nice, but winds seem a bit gusty. Good $14 ticket deal for Valentine's Day.


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## NYDB (Feb 13, 2018)

Speaking about skiing in general Wednesday, but I don't think anything will be 'soft' from temps.  It will remain freezing until  midday at least on the mountain after being frozen solid for 2 days.  

Maybe the groomers will loosen up a bit?


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## crank (Feb 13, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> FYI, you skied Sugarbush both days.



If this was meant for me, I skied Ellen when she was Glen Ellen, and when she was called Sugarbush North so I do know where I was skiing.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Feb 13, 2018)

Orca said:


> Sitting in the ski house right now having a late breakfast and talking with my peeps. The question came up: Why was the Sugar Shuttle renamed the Jitney? Everyone in the house thinks Sugar Shuttle fits Sugarbush better, as well as sounds better because it alliterates. No one particularly likes the name Jitney. We suspect the shuttle was renamed for a violation of a trademark word registered in the sugar industry or perhaps the porn industry! Anyone actually know the story?




I think you got it backwards. When in the hell did they rename the Jitney to something else in the first place? It was the Jitney when I first cashed a paycheck there back in '89.......Shit was sweet then, why you gotta mess with a good thing?


Definition of jitney / plural jitneys~

1 : an unlicensed taxicab

2[from the original 5 cent fare]: bus; especially : a small bus that carries passengers over a regular route on a flexible schedule

3 slang : nickel



Did You Know?

Jitneys weren't worth a dime - just a nickel. In the early 1900s, jitney was slang for "nickel," but it wasn't long before the term was applied to a new mode of public transportation that only cost a nickel. When they were introduced in American cities at the beginning of the century, vehicular jitneys could be any automobiles that carried passengers over a set route for a cheap fare, but eventually the term was applied specifically to small buses."



Damn kids, git off my lawn!


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## WinS (Feb 14, 2018)

For those of you who were here last Saturday it was indeed one of the best days of the season until 3pm when some rain came in from mid-mountain down. It may have been the busiest non-holiday day we have had, but as some noted with all trails open and all lifts running and the woods skiing well. It did not seem that busy. The longest lines were at the ticket window (peak was about 20 minutes) as a lot are still licking up Quad Packs and we did have a large number of day tickets sold. Once one has a SugarXpress card though one can reload on Line and go directly to the lift and that will reduce the lines.

Conditions did deteriorate with more precip Sunday night and late grooming, so Monday was fast and firm. Another full night of grooming had conditions improved and Wednesday will be even better. It looks like some more light showers on and then hopefully some snow Friday setting up another nice weekend. It won’t be as nice as weekend and the groomers will likely be where one will want to be. With the Holiday crowd we will be grooming as much as we can. Lots of fun events too over the next 10 days.


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## skiur (Feb 14, 2018)

What a difference a year makes, I was at sugarbush last year for Valentine's day and conditions could not have been better, bluebird day with comfortable temps, no wind, and tons of snow!


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## cdskier (Feb 14, 2018)

skiur said:


> What a difference a year makes, I was at sugarbush last year for Valentine's day and conditions could not have been better, bluebird day with comfortable temps, no wind, and tons of snow!



And yet by a week or so later we had a significant meltdown where my condo parking lot was brown and muddy and lower elevation natural trails looked like they normally should in April with massive bare spots...

Amazing how quickly things can change...


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 14, 2018)

crank said:


> If this was meant for me, I skied Ellen when she was Glen Ellen, and when she was called Sugarbush North so I do know where I was skiing.


Just checking.  You passed.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Feb 14, 2018)

WinS said:


> For those of you who were here last Saturday it was indeed one of the best days of the season until 3pm when some rain came in from mid-mountain down. It may have been the busiest non-holiday day we have had, but as some noted with all trails open and all lifts running and the woods skiing well. It did not seem that busy. The longest lines were at the ticket window (peak was about 20 minutes) as a lot are still licking up Quad Packs and we did have a large number of day tickets sold. Once one has a SugarXpress card though one can reload on Line and go directly to the lift and that will reduce the lines.
> 
> Conditions did deteriorate with more precip Sunday night and late grooming, so Monday was fast and firm. Another full night of grooming had conditions improved and Wednesday will be even better. It looks like some more light showers on and then hopefully some snow Friday setting up another nice weekend. It won’t be as nice as weekend and the groomers will likely be where one will want to be. With the Holiday crowd we will be grooming as much as we can. Lots of fun events too over the next 10 days.




Blah blah blah......... When are you going to address the Jitney controversy?


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 14, 2018)

A Jitney, is a jitney, is a jitney.


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## flakeydog (Feb 14, 2018)

Maybe it was to clarify where the thing goes.  I have seen some that though that this is how you got back and forth from North to Sugarbush South.  That would be a wild ride for sure.  My favorite is when I got on one day and someone else on board asked where I was going.  I replied that I was going to get off down at Mehuron's.... the look I got was priceless.


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## flakeydog (Feb 14, 2018)

Sorry- this one seems more appropriate in terms of capacity and loading....


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## jimmck (Feb 14, 2018)

Just wanted to throw out a big Thank You to the grooming staff.

We've been up here skiing since Saturday, and the conditions have been challenging since Monday.

Yesterday we had a great day, the sun certainly helped.  Conditions were much improved.

Today was outstanding, all things considered.  The grooming crew was out on full force last night and did a REMARKABLE job transforming Stein's.  

Tuesday, it was a wreck.  Frozen moguls and loads of ice in the troughs.

I saw a lone groomer working Stein's last night and was hopeful that some serious work could be done to the snow.  I tip my cap to you, good sir.  Stein's was soooo much fun today.




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## cdskier (Feb 14, 2018)

jimmck said:


> I saw a lone groomer working Stein's last night and was hopeful that some serious work could be done to the snow.  I tip my cap to you, good sir.  Stein's was soooo much fun today.



You'll probably always see only a lone groomer on Steins since it requires the winch cat. Good to hear that they've been doing a good job with the grooming!


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## mtsnow123 (Feb 15, 2018)

Riding yesterday was a little bit better than I expected. Lower half of Gate House was a blast with the liftline getting nice and soft later in the day and terrain park being fun. Stein's Run was the biggest surprise of the day. There was edgeable loose granular across the whole trail, with minimal ice. I stayed away from Ripcord, as you could see the cat track ice in the snow. Winds were not as bad as originally planned. I liked the snow report's description of the wind as "passionate".

All in all, $14 for a Wednesday outing was great. Lots of people showed up. Couldn't choose a better way to dip out of work.


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## WinS (Feb 16, 2018)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Blah blah blah......... When are you going to address the Jitney controversy?



You guys are doing a great job with the Jitney stuff, so I will remain silent


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 17, 2018)

From Sugarbush's snow report this morning; "Groomers are putting the finishing touches on 59 trails"
I am still waiting on the finishing touches.  Awful Job grooming last night.  Murphys, Birdland and Lower Organgrinder to name a few were awful, ruts and holes in the grooming with death cookies on the side.  Maybe they should slowdown and take their time next time grooming so they can put the "finishing touches on the trails"


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## keyser soze (Feb 17, 2018)

I was there last Sunday a.m. and the conditions were pretty bad.  Up top was decent where it had snowed rather than rained the day/night before, but after ~ 1/4 of the way down it was frozen solid.  It did not look/feel like they had done any grooming to loosen up the ice.  My ski buddy was on teles and not enjoying it at all, so we took maybe 4 runs and called it a day.  We were able to get a voucher since it was < 1 hour of skiing, which was a good thing.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 17, 2018)

keyser soze said:


> I was there last Sunday a.m. and the conditions were pretty bad.  Up top was decent where it had snowed rather than rained the day/night before, but after ~ 1/4 of the way down it was frozen solid.  It did not look/feel like they had done any grooming to loosen up the ice.  My ski buddy was on teles and not enjoying it at all, so we took maybe 4 runs and called it a day.  We were able to get a voucher since it was < 1 hour of skiing, which was a good thing.



I rather see them take their time and either groom fewer runs or have delayed openings on some trails to finish up grooming in the morning.


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2018)

keyser soze said:


> I was there last Sunday a.m. and the conditions were pretty bad.  Up top was decent where it had snowed rather than rained the day/night before, but after ~ 1/4 of the way down it was frozen solid.  It did not look/feel like they had done any grooming to loosen up the ice.  My ski buddy was on teles and not enjoying it at all, so we took maybe 4 runs and called it a day.  We were able to get a voucher since it was < 1 hour of skiing, which was a good thing.



I can't blame Sugarbush at all for the conditions last Sunday. Conditions were exactly as you would expect given the weather we had last Saturday night into Sunday. Top half to maybe even 2/3 was fine last Sunday morning. Conditions didn't deteriorate until about halfway down Snowball somewhere around the the entrance to Twist. Temps didn't drop below freezing at the base until around 1:30 am. The main mountain opens at 8am (actually 7:30am for the early ups people on the weekend). That's less than 6 hours from the time the temps dipped below freezing until the lifts opened. And realistically the surface doesn't set up as soon as the temps hit freezing...which means there was even less time to attempt to groom after it froze. There's only so much you can do with that narrow of a window of below freezing temps. If they took the approach of grooming less trails and simply starting later after it froze, there would have been plenty of other people saying "why weren't more trails groomed."

Today is a different story. I'm not there so I can't comment directly on the conditions, but looking at temp data does show it was below freezing at the base by 4pm yesterday. How wet the snow was before that and how long it took to set up I can't say. In theory they should have had ample time to groom and put down a decent surface, but I also can't say I'm surprised to hear about significant ruts as I've seen the same thing a couple other times this season.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2018)

So it got warm and then cooled off.  That were the cards we were dealt.  I can understand that the conditions were not great but on a day like last sunday, I can't blame the grooming crew.   Ski up high was the solution for the most part.  Also there is not a huge non compacted base right now. The groomers can't be asked to make beautiful ground up groom surface with that base right now.  Take that very wet base snow they laid down, add two or 3 rain events and it is what it is.  And as I have always championed, a quick coating of dryer snowmaking always works best after one of these events.


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## kingslug (Feb 19, 2018)

Frozen but nice groomers..top on windhold..come on sun..and go away wind.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 19, 2018)

Heading up today for 3 days. 2 days of warm and rainy and then a freeze ... its gonna be great ...


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## kingslug (Feb 19, 2018)

On the bus to Ellen..top of lincoln all wind hold


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## Orca (Feb 19, 2018)

Hard to catch a break right now. This week looks very rough. Tuesday rain, Wednesday warm and probably the best day of the week, Thursday it gets cold and all that warm snow will set like concrete with no time to groom, Friday groomed concrete. This winter has been tough.


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## kingslug (Feb 19, 2018)

Im out..frozen groomers and ice moguls..no warmup..heavy wind..mrs slug is done..


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## djd66 (Feb 19, 2018)

Sorry to hear about the crappy conditions in VT.  The good news is the Mountain Collective works like a charm at Snowmass. 50% off as advertised, and they were able to load up our cards in one visit to the ticket booth.  The other cool thing is 51" in the past 2 weeks and it's dumping right now - expected to get 18". I don't know how many more crappy VT winters I have left in me.


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## 1dog (Feb 19, 2018)

I don't deny its been a cruel winter at times, but Sunday had a good 5-6" of fresh and as long as  you actually got out early or went i nto the woods, it was a vast imporvement over Sat, noise and crunchiness - even Sat with those 2" of snow Fri night helped.

Between Spills woods Gansta/even Highway 21, were really ok - only thing skied out was Lews ans thats because their is but two lines in headwall.
Had fresh in Domino woods as late as 10:30.

Its what makes a NE skier a NE skier.

And watch, because we're headed to the Stoke, - best snow in all the 10 years its been open - the dump to the Green Mountains is sure to come in 2 weeks. Guaranteed.

Tough it out boys and girls - don't give in to complaining.whining-bitchin' - as the middle class we are the richest 10% of people on earth with access to more lift-serviced terrain than anyone's ever had - ever.


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## WinS (Feb 19, 2018)

Remember last year. This week a year ago it got warm and we thought Winter was over and then Stella arrived and we had some of the best skiing of the year and skied into May!


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 19, 2018)

WinS said:


> Remember last year. This week a year ago it got warm and we thought Winter was over and then Stella arrived and we had some of the best skiing of the year and skied into May!



Yup. Similar timing and this looks to be a bit shorter of a meltdown.


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## WinS (Feb 19, 2018)

8)





bdfreetuna said:


> Yup. Similar timing and this looks to be a bit shorter of a meltdown.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 19, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Im out..frozen groomers and ice moguls..no warmup..heavy wind..mrs slug is done..



Did you ski the same Mt Ellen that I did on Sunday ?  You had to endure few icy bumps on Exterminator to hit the powder on Lower Exterminator.  Lower FIS was soft natural snow with a fast run out.  Inverness chair was the best option at Sugarbush.  No racing on Sunday left us with hero snow on Inverness and Brambles, Walt's had no ice and powder mid day and Semi Tough Woods was a lot of fun.


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## mikec142 (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunday was a ton of fun at Lincoln Peak.  Sharp edges helped and there was a lot of fun stuff in the trees.  I give Sugarbusg a ton of credit for dealing well with these crappy breaks they've endured.  A friend of mine and his daughter are visiting UVM this coming weekend and I might join them.  Gonna be a last minute call given the poor forecast.  Glad I spent three ski days in VT this past weekend.  Did a tour of UVM with my oldest today.  Fingers crossed.


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## kingslug (Feb 20, 2018)

Stowe sunday..lots of fun..went to SB monday for a change..it changed.
Did see some brave souls on the mogul runs..SB has some of the best mogul runs and mogul skiers so they where ok..me..not a fan of icy bumps. Tough February.


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## mikec142 (Feb 20, 2018)

I find that I'm always saying this to my family when we are at SB..."The ability of the average skier at SB is higher than any other place I've skied on the east coast".  It's part of the reason I love skiing there.  We get better from watching and learning while we are on the lift. I saw people absolutely crushing the moguls on Sunday.  So much fun to watch (and try myself).


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## kingslug (Feb 20, 2018)

Watching little kids going through the rocks and ice is fun..thats why they grow up to be killer mogul skiers..i started at 30 so i missed all that.


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## smac75 (Feb 20, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Watching little kids going through the rocks and ice is fun..thats why they grow up to be killer mogul skiers..i started at 30 so i missed all that.



My kid (age 9) is in the blazer program. Per usual they jumped into Slidebrook last week as conditions permitted it. New kid in group (came from Okemo "blazer" program) tells mom "we went through these woods, and came out on a road and had to wait for a bus to come get us". Next weekend kid moved to non-woods Blazer group - pretty sure that parent was a bit shell-shocked. Guess we do things a bit different at SB!


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## mikec142 (Feb 20, 2018)

smac75 said:


> My kid (age 9) is in the blazer program. Per usual they jumped into Slidebrook last week as conditions permitted it. New kid in group (came from Okemo "blazer" program) tells mom "we went through these woods, and came out on a road and had to wait for a bus to come get us". Next weekend kid moved to non-woods Blazer group - pretty sure that parent was a bit shell-shocked. Guess we do things a bit different at SB!



I wish we lived close enough for my kids to participate in the Blazer program.  I saw them all over the mountain (and in the woods) on Sunday.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2018)

I was I had a Blazer program growing up (or even just learned to ski that young...I didn't start until HS). Awesome what those kids do at SB!


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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2018)

The blazer kids were cool....until diggity, Rickity, and a few others starting taking their mob of kids into lightly skied wooded areas.  Then they told two friends and they told two friends and so on.......


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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2018)

I will have to agree that Saturday, Sunday and Monday were pretty good skiing earlier in the day.  Later on we found ourselves piecing together lower angel woods sections to keep entertained.  I had a lot of fun.  But enough is enough.  Off for Big Sky for a while to ski with a bunch of ex-sugarbush converts.  Not sure what the connection is but there are a good number or VT transplants there.  Full on Backcountry itinerary is expected.  I am so Stoked I can hardly contain myself.


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## djd66 (Feb 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The blazer kids were cool....until diggity, Rickity, and a few others starting taking their mob of kids into lightly skied wooded areas.  Then they told two friends and they told two friends and so on.......



Hawk - Do you have kids?  I do.  My son skis in the Mountaineering Blazer program and he absolutely loves it. So much so that he is really pissed off if we ever take a weekend off.  Those guys along with myself have really given him a passion for skiing. Sorry to hear you have an issue with them skiing places that are "lightly skied" as you mention above. Guess what - those places are open to anyone that wants to ski them.  If my son was stuck on just the trails or some of the heavily traveled woods runs - he would be bored shitless!  I am guessing that someone took you on these trails at some point and that is how you found out about them.  I have no issue with that either.


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## mikec142 (Feb 20, 2018)

The interesting thing is that I assume that all mountains have some form of the blazer program, but the SB one seems to be particularly well run and popular.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Hawk - Do you have kids?  I do.  My son skis in the Mountaineering Blazer program and he absolutely loves it. So much so that he is really pissed off if we ever take a weekend off.  Those guys along with myself have really given him a passion for skiing. Sorry to hear you have an issue with them skiing places that are "lightly skied" as you mention above. Guess what - those places are open to anyone that wants to ski them.  If my son was stuck on just the trails or some of the heavily traveled woods runs - he would be bored shitless!  I am guessing that someone took you on these trails at some point and that is how you found out about them.  I have no issue with that either.


Your taking my comments to seriously and totally wrong.  I am very good friends with Diggity and Rick Hale and many others with the coaching staff.  It was more about busting their balls.  You are correct that people can ski anywhere they want.  People do.  Just stating the facts sir.  A few of us who have been skiing the certain areas for years(like 15 or 20) noticed that since the advent of the blazers and Bush Pilots, these areas are now overrun by these programs.  So to answer your question, NO.  No one showed me any of these areas.  I am not one of those people.  People like Diggity and John Atkinson would not take me at first and that was how they were before the programs started.  So I hiked in the summer and skinned in the winter to do recon.  My first years of skiing at the Bush were filled with pushing thought the swack and thick brush and struggling to find areas.  So I truly earned the knowledge.  This was also in the era of no garmin or social media for the recon.   

I know you feel it is your duty on here to call me out as you have on several occasions.  But as a long time skier of this place can you afford me a little lamentment about the way things used to be.  You obviously have no idea what I am talking about so I will not expect that you would get it.

And no I do not have kids.  It was not in the cards for us.  But if I did I would teach my kid the ropes myself.


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## djd66 (Feb 21, 2018)

Hawk - yes I have called you out because you have consistently made ridiculous comments,... this being one of them.   So know one showed you ANYTHING at Surarbush - you had to slog through all 4,000 acres to find a private stash that you could ski all to yourself?  Wow,... that sounds like fun.

You love to tell us how long you have been skiing and you know more locals than Win Smith.  Is this suppose to give you some kind of street cred??  To use your words, I don't get it.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2018)

You are a total ass with your personnel attacks.  I'm through with you.  We have nothing in common and it totally shows.  You make some huge ridiculous leaps with your post.  What's ridiculous about what I said?  You really have no idea do you.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2018)

I think we need some snow to put everyone in a better mood...


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 21, 2018)




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## nhskier1969 (Feb 21, 2018)

"Our grooming team plans to wait for the freeze before hitting the hill, but when they do they'll be resurfacing 42 of 66 expected open trails. Due to the delay, we will be adjusting our Lincoln Peak lift opening schedule for the morning."

I 100% agree.  They should have done this several times before during thaw/freeze events.


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## djd66 (Feb 21, 2018)

Hawk said:


> You are a total ass with your personnel attacks.  I'm through with you.  We have nothing in common and it totally shows.  You make some huge ridiculous leaps with your post.  What's ridiculous about what I said?  You really have no idea do you.



Not sure what you are referring to in regards to personal attacks.  You have no idea who I am. All I know is I have been reading your posts for years and they are rediculous.  That's my opinion. Yep, 45 plus years skiing, some of those years as a professional I guess should not have any opinion.   You complain that the Blazer kids are skiing on your private terrain WTF??  Yeah, I have no issue calling you out on such a rediculous comment.


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## caribchakita (Feb 21, 2018)

comments to self..."don't engage", "so what if he can't spell", "how annoying is this"..."boys will be boys"...

heeeee.....


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 21, 2018)

children should be neither seen nor heard


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Not sure what you are referring to in regards to personal attacks.  You have no idea who I am. All I know is I have been reading your posts for years and they are rediculous.  That's my opinion. Yep, 45 plus years skiing, some of those years as a professional I guess should not have any opinion.   You complain that the Blazer kids are skiing on your private terrain WTF??  Yeah, I have no issue calling you out on such a rediculous comment.


My posts are a reflection of what the people I ski with are saying.  Just because your opinion is different does not make mine any better or worse.   In no way did I ever say that the areas the Blazer kids were skiing were my private stash.  I was only expressing my sadness that things have changed and areas that were previously lightly skied by a few that actually took the time to do the work to find the areas are now totally blasted out by the programs.  Yes it is there rite to go anywhere but it is also fair that I can be sad about it.  I don't know why your comments bother me because your right,  I don't know you.  Maybe its because it is coming from a rich guy from the south that pays and extra $2,200 to dump his kid off into a program so he can go free ski with his wife and friends.  And then you get all bothered when someone mentions anything negative about it.  Like I said, I am done with you.


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## Howitzer (Feb 22, 2018)

Sugarbush is a partner on the Ikon Pass for next year. More details to follow, but this is big news.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

huge news. gamechanger for me on ikon. so glad to see noVT involved. keeping me away from stowe/epic


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2018)

Howitzer said:


> Sugarbush is a partner on the Ikon Pass for next year. More details to follow, but this is big news.


I had a feeling this was going to happen.  Too bad it was not this year as it would have help on my upcoming trip.


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## teleo (Feb 22, 2018)

Anyone know if there is an advantage to sugarbush pass holders like there was with the collective?  7 days at the bush isn't nearly enough.  Haven't found anything about that yet.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

teleo said:


> Anyone know if there is an advantage to sugarbush pass holders like there was with the collective?  7 days at the bush isn't nearly enough.  Haven't found anything about that yet.



Wondering that as well. Ikon as a standalone pass has virtually no value to me.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> huge news. gamechanger for me on ikon. so glad to see noVT involved. keeping me away from stowe/epic



Same for me.  Can't say I'd buy the Ikon pass without Sugarbush on it.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

TheArchitect said:


> Same for me.  Can't say I'd buy the Ikon pass without Sugarbush on it.



+1


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## WinS (Feb 22, 2018)

This is a good blog.  Let's be civil to each other.  We can all have opinions but let's not get personal or judgmental about others.


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## rocks860 (Feb 22, 2018)

Win how are things looking for the weekend? I’m debating making the trip up as things are pretty dismal down here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## benski (Feb 22, 2018)

Another question for Win, are these passes simply paying the mountains a set amount of money per ticket, essentially acting as an discount ticket for the ski area, or do they pay a fixed amount to each ski area per season, therefore providing some insurance against bad snow.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 22, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Not sure what you are referring to in regards to personal attacks.  You have no idea who I am. All I know is I have been reading your posts for years and they are rediculous.  That's my opinion. Yep, 45 plus years skiing, some of those years as a professional I guess should not have any opinion.   You complain that the Blazer kids are skiing on your private terrain WTF??  Yeah, I have no issue calling you out on such a rediculous comment.



Jeezus man, he's only been on here since November of 2016, barely over a year... you've been exaggerating this topic a little too much!


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Jeezus man, he's only been on here since November of 2016, barely over a year... you've been exaggerating this topic a little too much!



I assume djd is also referring to the posts on the SkiMRV forum before that died and we were forced to use the SB thread here on AZ. I'll just say that I've both agreed and disagreed with things that both Hawk and djd have said over time. The "years" thing is not an exaggeration... Neither Hawk nor djd are new to the SB community even though where the bulk of the posts occur may have changed.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 22, 2018)

WinS said:


> This is a good blog.  Let's be civil to each other.  We can all have opinions but let's not get personal or judgmental about others.



Well said.

BTW, thanks for putting Sugarbush on the Ikon pass!


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## djd66 (Feb 23, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Maybe its because it is coming from a rich guy from the south that pays and extra $2,200 to dump his kid off into a program so he can go free ski with his wife and friends.



This comment pretty much says it all about the kind of person you are. Oh btw, the $2200 you refer to pays for a lot of that cockamamie snowmaking.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2018)

Alright guys. Enough with the personal battle back and forth.  If you all have beef with one another, take it to private messaging.

Thanks

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## WinS (Feb 23, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Win how are things looking for the weekend? I’m debating making the trip up as things are pretty dismal down here
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The grooming this morning came out really nicely.  Ripcord was finished last and it was really soft and nice. A second night of grooming after a hard cool now does make a difference. And a third tonight should set up for a good Saturday.  We are looking at some mixed weather later this afternoon and evening. It could be some wet snow, freezing rain and rain showers but I don't think it will do a lot of damage and the snow should be soft tomorrow. Friday night we could see a couple of inches of snow.  Bottom line.  I do not think conditions will be great but it should be OK.  I plan to be out both days.  Next week will not allow for snowmaking temp with days in the 40's and only cooling down slowly into the mid 20's at night.  After that the forecast is calling for cooler temps again and maybe ......


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## WinS (Feb 23, 2018)

benski said:


> Another question for Win, are these passes simply paying the mountains a set amount of money per ticket, essentially acting as an discount ticket for the ski area, or do they pay a fixed amount to each ski area per season, therefore providing some insurance against bad snow.



Sorry. This is confidential.


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## Hawk (Feb 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Alright guys. Enough with the personal battle back and forth.  If you all have beef with one another, take it to private messaging.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Understood.  I am sorry that it escalated.  I just got sick of that guy chirping at me.  We come from two totally different backgrounds and are pretty much polar opposites.  Like I said.  I am done with him.


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## rocks860 (Feb 23, 2018)

WinS said:


> The grooming this morning came out really nicely.  Ripcord was finished last and it was really soft and nice. A second night of grooming after a hard cool now does make a difference. And a third tonight should set up for a good Saturday.  We are looking at some mixed weather later this afternoon and evening. It could be some wet snow, freezing rain and rain showers but I don't think it will do a lot of damage and the snow should be soft tomorrow. Friday night we could see a couple of inches of snow.  Bottom line.  I do not think conditions will be great but it should be OK.  I plan to be out both days.  Next week will not allow for snowmaking temp with days in the 40's and only cooling down slowly into the mid 20's at night.  After that the forecast is calling for cooler temps again and maybe ......



Thanks for the response, really torn whether I should try to get out tomorrow or hold out. Doesn’t sound like next week will be any better so this may be the best chance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

I got all my eggs in the 3/17 weekend stowe/sugarbush basket. house with 4 couples in Waterbury. ski stowe saturday. a special tasting at hill farmstead arranged for my buddy's bday (him and his girlfriend are regulars up there, and she contacted shawn hill who agreed to release a couple of bottles from his personal collection for us to consume on site) for Saturday afternoon, hen of the wood Waterbury for Saturday night, sugarbush ski sunday. classssssyyyyyy


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 23, 2018)

Baller for sure...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 24, 2018)

Given everything that's gone on in the last week, today was overall a pretty great day skiing! Win, I'm really happy you let Gerry put up the beer/pizza pavilion in the garden space -- that was a lot of fun in a great location. Can't wait to hang out there when seasonally-appropriate Spring skiing starts!


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## tnt1234 (Feb 24, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I got all my eggs in the 3/17 weekend stowe/sugarbush basket. house with 4 couples in Waterbury. ski stowe saturday. a special tasting at hill farmstead arranged for my buddy's bday (him and his girlfriend are regulars up there, and she contacted shawn hill who agreed to release a couple of bottles from his personal collection for us to consume on site) for Saturday afternoon, hen of the wood Waterbury for Saturday night, sugarbush ski sunday. classssssyyyyyy


sounds killer!


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## cdskier (Feb 25, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Given everything that's gone on in the last week, today was overall a pretty great day skiing! Win, I'm really happy you let Gerry put up the beer/pizza pavilion in the garden space -- that was a lot of fun in a great location. Can't wait to hang out there when seasonally-appropriate Spring skiing starts!



As much as I enjoyed the soft spring bumps forming on trails like Stein's and Spring Fling on Saturday...I'd still prefer not to ski that in February! It was pretty amazing how absolutely different the mountain was depending on elevation. Winter up top and spring down low...

Now let's bring on the snow and save the rest of this spring skiing stuff for late April!


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## tumbler (Feb 26, 2018)

Despite the weather challenges we had a really nice week.  The beginning Sat-Mon were awesome, new snow and everything in play.  Sad watching everything melt Tues-Wed but Wed was fun spring day.  Thurs was a good day off after taking a few runs.  Groomers did a nice job bringing what had snow back to life for Fri-Sun.  Good call on the delayed openings and letting them take their time and do a nice slow groom.  Snow sacrifices have started for the end of the week...


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## tumbler (Feb 26, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Given everything that's gone on in the last week, today was overall a pretty great day skiing! Win, I'm really happy you let Gerry put up the beer/pizza pavilion in the garden space -- that was a lot of fun in a great location. Can't wait to hang out there when seasonally-appropriate Spring skiing starts!



I did also like the new Plaza Bar but the guy running it, not Gerry, couldn't have been more unhappy.  Not really the vibe you are looking for.


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## tumbler (Feb 26, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Given everything that's gone on in the last week, today was overall a pretty great day skiing! Win, I'm really happy you let Gerry put up the beer/pizza pavilion in the garden space -- that was a lot of fun in a great location. Can't wait to hang out there when seasonally-appropriate Spring skiing starts!



I did also like the new Plaza Bar but the guy running it, not Gerry, couldn't have been more unhappy.  Not really the vibe you are looking for.


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## WinS (Feb 26, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Despite the weather challenges we had a really nice week.  The beginning Sat-Mon were awesome, new snow and everything in play.  Sad watching everything melt Tues-Wed but Wed was fun spring day.  Thurs was a good day off after taking a few runs.  Groomers did a nice job bringing what had snow back to life for Fri-Sun.  Good call on the delayed openings and letting them take their time and do a nice slow groom.  Snow sacrifices have started for the end of the week...




Thanks for the comment.  The team has worked extra hard this winter.  Getting down the early amount of snowmaking we did has given us good depth to work with and the grooming team has really performed great. Fortunately, the night temps this week are dipping into the 20's so they will be able to keep it skiing well until we can get some normal March weather. Looks like the month will come in like a lamb so it should  go out like a lion as it did last year.


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## WJenness (Feb 26, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I got all my eggs in the 3/17 weekend stowe/sugarbush basket. house with 4 couples in Waterbury. ski stowe saturday. a special tasting at hill farmstead arranged for my buddy's bday (him and his girlfriend are regulars up there, and she contacted shawn hill who agreed to release a couple of bottles from his personal collection for us to consume on site) for Saturday afternoon, hen of the wood Waterbury for Saturday night, sugarbush ski sunday. classssssyyyyyy



Sounds great...

Working on a similar weekend up there for my birthday (Mine is the 16th).

Maybe I should crash your party! :razz:


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## Orca (Mar 1, 2018)

Generally, I don't direct any of my posts to Win as a courtesy to the fact that he really does not owe any answers to us, the forum community. This is an exception!

Win, have you considered a Sugarbush + MRG pass product? Could that be worked? I'd image that myself and others would pay quite well (maybe $1300, say) for the product. It seems like a logical extension to the multi-area passes (e.g. IKON and others) that are becoming prevalent, only it would be of the "buy local" variety that seems to suit the Vermont ethos. Any thoughts?


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## Orca (Mar 1, 2018)

FWIW, the big K is kicking it up a gear: http://www.killington.com/company/media/pressrelease.html?pressrelease=pressrelease84


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2018)

Orca said:


> FWIW, the big K is kicking it up a gear: http://www.killington.com/company/media/pressrelease.html?pressrelease=pressrelease84



Eh? Sugarbush already "kicked it up a notch" with 3 new lifts in the past few years and we already have the RFID implemented as well. About time K did some upgrades and installed new lifts...


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## Orca (Mar 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Eh? Sugarbush already "kicked it up a notch" with 3 new lifts in the past few years and we already have the RFID implemented as well. About time K did some upgrades and installed new lifts...



Hurray for RFID! I love not having the irritation of the scanners pawing at my pass as the scan gun repeatedly fails to recognize the bar code. Huge improvement. Thank you again, Sugarbush.

CD, you went right to a kind of defensive comparison with Sugarbush on the Killington improvements. I was just posting news that I thought would be of interest to Vermont skiers. But as such, your assertion that Sugarbush has already kicked it up with new lifts is a little thin. Sugarbush put in new lifts because its hand was forced by the decrepitude of the antecedent lifts. I love the new Valley House lift, but quite honestly it was three to five years late in coming. The other two lifts were replaced on the insistence of the director of operations (to paraphrase Win's words), likely due to liability concerns. All these new lifts are good things, but they were practically compulsory because there was little option to defer their installation.


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2018)

Orca said:


> Hurray for RFID! I love not having the irritation of the scanners pawing at my pass as the scan gun repeatedly fails to recognize the bar code. Huge improvement. Thank you again, Sugarbush.
> 
> CD, you went right to a kind of defensive comparison with Sugarbush on the Killington improvements. I was just posting news that I thought would be of interest to Vermont skiers. But as such, your assertion that Sugarbush has already kicked it up with new lifts is a little thin. Sugarbush put in new lifts because its hand was forced by the decrepitude of the antecedent lifts. I love the new Valley House lift, but quite honestly it was three to five years late in coming. The other two lifts were replaced on the insistence of the director of operations (to paraphrase Win's words), likely due to liability concerns. All these new lifts are good things, but they were practically compulsory because there was little option to defer their installation.



I took your post mentioning K's improvements within the SB thread as an implication that SB needs to do more. If that was not your intention, sorry. I just don't otherwise see the relevance of mentioning what K is doing in the Sugarbush thread. There's already an entire thread dedicated to K's improvements.

I'm not knocking K's improvements by any means and think they are great for them (with the exception of the bubble chair as I'm very anti-bubble). However I also I think you can also make a lot of the same arguments that some of K's improvements are out of necessity and honestly quite overdue (not having a south ridge chair for something like 6 years was a huge oversight imo).


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## djd66 (Mar 1, 2018)

As far further investment in Sugarbush- would be great to see them pump some real money into the Shark and how about an outdoor skating rink?  This would be short money to install and would give guests an option when the skiing is not so good.  All the other major resorts have put money into mtns with additions like this.  Sugarbush does not need to be Jay peak, but a few other options would be nice.


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2018)

djd66 said:


> As far further investment in Sugarbush- would be great to see them pump some real money into the Shark and how about an outdoor skating rink?  This would be short money to install and would give guests an option when the skiing is not so good.  All the other major resorts have put money into mtns with additions like this.  Sugarbush does not need to be Jay peak, but a few other options would be nice.



There's already a skating rink in Waitsfield. Not sure I agree with adding competition to a local place. And I don't know that there's enough demand to support 2 rinks in the MRV.


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## rocks860 (Mar 1, 2018)

I think sugarbush is fine the way it is. I personally don’t ever want to see it turn into someplace like killington. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheArchitect (Mar 1, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I think sugarbush is fine the way it is. I personally don’t ever want to see it turn into someplace like killington.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I couldn't agree more.  I love the vibe at Sugarbush.  It's hard to describe but to me it just feels more like a 'hardcore' skiers area (think MRG on steroids) and all that other fluff doesn't matter.


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## benski (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There's already a skating rink in Waitsfield. Not sure I agree with adding competition to a local place. And I don't know that there's enough demand to support 2 rinks in the MRV.



That rink looks a little decrepit. The MRV could certainly use a new rink.


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## Orca (Mar 2, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I think sugarbush is fine the way it is. I personally don’t ever want to see it turn into someplace like killington



Amen, bro. I doubt anyone wants Sugarbush to turn into Killington. I actually haven't skied Killington since the early '80s. That's real.


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## ducky (Mar 2, 2018)

Last time I skied K (mid-90s) I got knocked over by a guy wearing jeans and a Jets jacket who came in too hot to the lift line. Minutes later, riding up the Outer Limits lift at around 11:00, I looked down to see a nearly-full bottle of Johnny Walker Black lying upright in the snow. Maybe the Jets guy was in a hurry to retrieve it. I always wondered why someone who drinks scotch in the am while skiing bothers with a more expensive top-shelf brand. Guess the 100 proof was in order.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I took your post mentioning K's improvements within the SB thread as an implication that SB needs to do more. If that was not your intention, sorry. I just don't otherwise see the relevance of mentioning what K is doing in the Sugarbush thread.
> 
> I'm not knocking K's improvements by any means and think they are great for them (with the exception of the bubble chair as I'm very anti-bubble). However I also I think you can also make a lot of the same arguments that some of K's improvements are out of necessity and honestly quite overdue (not having a south ridge chair for something like 6 years was a huge oversight imo).


  +1.  Kmart skiers are also very different from SB skiers.


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## WinS (Mar 2, 2018)

Killington's list of improvements for next year are indeed impressive.  Since purchasing Sugarbush we have invested about $70 million in capital improvements (excluding real estate properties like Clay Brook, Ric Brook and Gadd Brook). Most of this has been skiing related with the largest components on 7 new lifts, lift upgrades and snowmaking upgrades and grooming equipment.  But with an operation like ours there are many things that are not as visible that are required to keep everything in good shape but at roof repairs, flooring, carpeting, kitchen equipment, employee housing, vehicles, golf, the SHARC  etc. Last year our CAPEX spend was $7 million which is not what we are financially able to do each year, but we think our infrastructure is in really good shape now so we can get back for a more normalized CAPEX spend.


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## WinS (Mar 2, 2018)

Orca said:


> Generally, I don't direct any of my posts to Win as a courtesy to the fact that he really does not owe any answers to us, the forum community. This is an exception!
> 
> Win, have you considered a Sugarbush + MRG pass product? Could that be worked? I'd image that myself and others would pay quite well (maybe $1300, say) for the product. It seems like a logical extension to the multi-area passes (e.g. IKON and others) that are becoming prevalent, only it would be of the "buy local" variety that seems to suit the Vermont ethos. Any thoughts?



A few years ago we initiated a joint college pass with MRG that has worked very well and we  also have an Add-On to our 20's pass which allows one to ski MRG on weekdays non-Holidays.  Already a number of people have passes at both mountains or take advantage of things like our Quad Pack.  We are very open to continuing to find more ways to work together in the future.


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## phin (Mar 2, 2018)

If anyone is out there today, a report would be much appreciated.  Remaining hopeful.


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There's already a skating rink in Waitsfield. Not sure I agree with adding competition to a local place. And I don't know that there's enough demand to support 2 rinks in the MRV.



Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come.  There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road.  There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity  VS driving all the way to Waitsfield.    For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.


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## tumbler (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come.  There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road.  There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity  VS driving all the way to Waitsfield.    For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.



A rink for less than 50k? No way.  You left off a 0.  They are very expensive and not very cheap to operate.  Rink is not needed, take the shuttle to Waitsfield to skate


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come.  There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road.  There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity  VS driving all the way to Waitsfield.    For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.



I don't necessarily doubt they would come...I'm more concerned with then you may put a local business out of business.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2018)

In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue.  If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I don't necessarily doubt they would come...I'm more concerned with then you may put a local business out of business.



That is a really good reason to not improved your own business.


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue.  If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?



The Skating venue was just an idea to add to the existing experience.  You are right,... Sugarbush should not do anything to improve the experience outside of skiing.  Guess what - every other major resort has added things to improved the overall skiing experience.

I could give 2 shits if they build a skating venue or not.  My main point was for them to ADD to the skiing experience AND they have an existing pad to build on.  Like someone said above - it would not cost $500,000 to build.

Have any of you been to the Shark recently?  Sorry to say - but the place is a dump.  I think the spin bikes are from the Reagan administration.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> That is a really good reason to not improved your own business.



It is called being a good neighbor. We should encourage people to explore the valley. "Community" is a big value that SB likes to talk about. (And fwiw, I think they do a good job generally speaking of promoting the community aspect of the entire MRV). A skating rink at SB would bring minimal (if any) revenue to SB itself, so I don't really even see it as an improvement. Most here seem to agree it isn't something we actually need.

I'm not saying SB shouldn't do any non-skiing improvements, but a Skating rink surely isn't one that should be anywhere on the list. Now on the other hand, I don't have a problem with SB improving their own existing facilities like the Sharc if that's needed.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2018)

Well stated.


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> It is called being a good neighbor.



So with that logic,... Your neighbor runs a restaurant.  They do a complete shit job of meeting their customer's needs and the food sucks.  Opening a restaurant on your property would directly compete with your neighbor - so you decide against it.  

Mean while there is a guy in the next town that does not believe in any of this nonsense.  He is a business man that wants to support his family and pay for his mortgage and build some wealth for his family.  He knows there is only one restaurant in the valley and the food really sucks!  He Builds a competing restaurant that is far superior.   He has all kinds of things that appease to families.  His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.  

Like it or not - this is called capitalism.


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## smac75 (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> The Skating venue was just an idea to add to the existing experience.  You are right,... Sugarbush should not do anything to improve the experience outside of skiing.  Guess what - every other major resort has added things to improved the overall skiing experience.
> 
> I could give 2 shits if they build a skating venue or not.  My main point was for them to ADD to the skiing experience AND they have an existing pad to build on.  Like someone said above - it would not cost $500,000 to build.
> 
> Have any of you been to the Shark recently?  Sorry to say - but the place is a dump.  I think the spin bikes are from the Reagan administration.



I am probably in the minority but I love that SB doesn't have a ton of after-ski family things to do. I am wiped after a day of skiing and love that we just go back to the inn and relax. I often think about families at Jay Peak - imagine sitting there watching your kids climb rock walls after a full day of skiing. No thanks! LAST thing i'd want to do!  I realize the additions were probably mentioned as an alternative to skiing when skiing isn't great or when people want a break but I'm grateful for not having to hear constant complaints from my kids that they want to do this/that and me having to say no  As it is I have to hear them complain about not being able to swim in the Claybrook pool every time we walk by but that's an easy one - members only kids!  

I do agree that the SHARC could use some updating though.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> So with that logic,... Your neighbor runs a restaurant.  They do a complete shit job of meeting their customer's needs and the food sucks.  Opening a restaurant on your property would directly compete with your neighbor - so you decide against it.
> 
> Mean while there is a guy in the next town that does not believe in any of this nonsense.  He is a business man that wants to support his family and pay for his mortgage and build some wealth for his family.  He knows there is only one restaurant in the valley and the food really sucks!  He Builds a competing restaurant that is far superior.   He has all kinds of things that appease to families.  His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.
> 
> Like it or not - this is called capitalism.



When there is a need, sure, makes perfect sense to create something better if other options are poor. In this case though, your argument was that people simply don't leave the access road, not that the Skatium was a bad skating rink. And in reality, Skatium was just recently on a list of top 10 skating rinks in VT.

Let me put this another way. If you 1) already have a successful business with a neighbor that also has a successful business offering a product that you don't, 2) like your neighbor, and 3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.



smac75 said:


> I am probably in the minority but I love that SB doesn't have a ton of after-ski family things to do. I am wiped after a day of skiing and love that we just go back to the inn and relax. I often think about families at Jay Peak - imagine sitting there watching your kids climb rock walls after a full day of skiing. No thanks! LAST thing i'd want to do!  I realize the additions were probably mentioned as an alternative to skiing when skiing isn't great or when people want a break but I'm grateful for not having to hear constant complaints from my kids that they want to do this/that and me having to say no  As it is I have to hear them complain about not being able to swim in the Claybrook pool every time we walk by but that's an easy one - members only kids!
> 
> I do agree that the SHARC could use some updating though.



Actually I don't think you are in the minority. The more quiet, laid back feel of the MRV was one of the things that I first loved as well (in addition to the skiing of course).


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> He has all kinds of things that appeaL to families.  His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.
> 
> Like it or not - this is called capitalism.


 I will have to agree that one of the aspects of capitalism certainly is competition.  So if someone doesn't like the SB experience due to its non-skiing activities, they are perfectly free to go elsewhere to find those activities-- however I doubt SB will go out of business due to that.  Oh, and I fixed the quote.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Actually I don't think you are in the minority. The more quiet, laid back feel of the MRV was one of the things that I first loved as well (in addition to the skiing of course).


 +1


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> 3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.
> 
> If expanding your business is called greed - Sugarbush would not exist.  MRG was the first area in the valley.  Mt Ellen and Sugarbush then built a ski area (next to it's neighbor and offered a similar product,...)  Competing is not greed - If businesses compete - they will naturally step up their game and improve.
> 
> I am a firm believer of Adam Smith and the invisible hand!


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## rocks860 (Mar 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> When there is a need, sure, makes perfect sense to create something better if other options are poor. In this case though, your argument was that people simply don't leave the access road, not that the Skatium was a bad skating rink. And in reality, Skatium was just recently on a list of top 10 skating rinks in VT.
> 
> Let me put this another way. If you 1) already have a successful business with a neighbor that also has a successful business offering a product that you don't, 2) like your neighbor, and 3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.
> 
> ...



That’s my favorite part of the mad river valley. I love the relaxed laid back feel there. Within the last 5 years or so I started going up for a weekend or so in the summer time and it’s great up there. Never super crowded and an amazing place to spend time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> If expanding your business is called greed - Sugarbush would not exist.  MRG was the first area in the valley.  Mt Ellen and Sugarbush then built a ski area (next to it's neighbor and offered a similar product,...)  Competing is not greed - If businesses compete - they will naturally step up their game and improve.
> 
> I am a firm believer of Adam Smith and the invisible hand!



It isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it seem. In the SB/MRG example there's enough demand for both to co-exist. Ultimately you could argue there's far more demand for skiing in the MRV than MRG alone would have ever been able to handle. Sure you could also argue that the demand exists because SB was built (if you build it they will come, etc). I don't see there being enough demand for two skating rinks to co-exist though and push each other to be better. So in this specific case, building one would not be the right thing to do. Sometimes you need to be capitalistic and expand and compete. Other times you don't. A smart business knows when to choose which option.



rocks860 said:


> That’s my favorite part of the mad river valley. I love the relaxed laid back feel there. Within the last 5 years or so I started going up for a weekend or so in the summer time and it’s great up there. Never super crowded and an amazing place to spend time



Yes, I love the summer (and fall) in the MRV as well as the skiing in the winter/spring. Very relaxing. There's some great hiking too!


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 2, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue.  If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?



Agreed, if any upgrades should be done it should be expanding snowmaking.  I agree with Out to Lunch trail, also I would like seeing snowmaking on Heavens gate Traverse.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 2, 2018)

phin said:


> If anyone is out there today, a report would be much appreciated.  Remaining hopeful.



What a turn around a day makes.  Skiing was fantastic today.  Ripcord was in great shape, lower organ grinder and death spout is back to downspout.  Mountain skied good.  Should be a good weekend.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> What a turn around a day makes.  Skiing was fantastic today.  Ripcord was in great shape, lower organ grinder and death spout is back to downspout.  Mountain skied good.  Should be a good weekend.



Good to hear. Everything sure looks nice covered in white again. Love driving through the Granville gulf after a fresh snowfall. Such a beautiful scenic section of rt 100 even at night. Can't wait to get out in the morning!


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## ducky (Mar 3, 2018)

Most of the Out to Lunch trail is owned by the home owners on that trail - the property's boundaries extend to the stream, I know as I owned one. SB only has an access right-of-way over the trail. Most home owners would welcome snowmaking to keep the trail open but some may not like the big dig required (in and around their sewer and water systems) to add pipes and infrastructure. Surely there are better trails to add snowmaking to, say Domino, Spills, Twist, Moonshine, etc.

One the skating rink, the MRV needs as many successful small businesses as possible both to enrichen the community and to strengthen the Chamber of Commerce. A rising tide floats all boats. Check out the MRVCC at madrivervalley.com and see what we have to offer or read the excellent MRV Four-Season Guide. The MRV businesses really need those "50,000 visitors a year who never leave the Access Rd" to come to town and explore, shop, and recreate. There is a lot to see and do here and summer/fall is even better than winter...and we moved here because we love winter, so hard for me to say that, but true.


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## teleo (Mar 3, 2018)

Why would u want to ruin all those trails with snowmaking?  Please no.  Now heavens gate traverse to ease deathspout would be nice.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2018)

teleo said:


> Why would u want to ruin all those trails with snowmaking?  Please no.  Now heavens gate traverse to ease deathspout would be nice.



Agreed! I do agree with ducky on the other part of his comments on the mrv though. That part was well said.


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## dustyroads (Mar 4, 2018)

*Improvements?*



Orca said:


> FWIW, the big K is kicking it up a gear: http://www.killington.com/company/media/pressrelease.html?pressrelease=pressrelease84



Not sure I'd call these improvements: These improvements include trail widening and adding tunnels and bridges...

For me improvements would be clearing downfall and brush in the designated glade areas with far less expense.


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## ducky (Mar 4, 2018)

teleo said:


> Why would u want to ruin all those trails with snowmaking?  Please no.  Now heavens gate traverse to ease deathspout would be nice.



Actually agree and appreciate the natural trails, just pointing out areas more used that OTL. There was a day when snowmaking was done on Exterminator and the hoses pulled through to hit the face of Bravo. Now it's just Rim Run, Looking Good and Elbow higher up at North.

Any insight into 18" coming our way this Thursday?


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 5, 2018)

Headed up this weekend. First time in a couple years but anyone have some insight on how the base is looking for the trees/natty's? Think 6-8 would do anything or are we talking exposed bedrock?


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 5, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Headed up this weekend. First time in a couple years but anyone have some insight on how the base is looking for the trees/natty's? Think 6-8 would do anything or are we talking exposed bedrock?



Possible for anything above 2500'


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Headed up this weekend. First time in a couple years but anyone have some insight on how the base is looking for the trees/natty's? Think 6-8 would do anything or are we talking exposed bedrock?[/QUOTE
> Except for the very top of the mountain, there is no snow off of the snow making trails.  They are pretty much starting from scratch for the natural snow trails and woods.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2018)

I think a small non-cooled rink above the shark is doable and would have little to no impact on the skatium.  But to put in a good size rink with boards, a warming hut to put your skates on, cooling pipes under the ice and a cooling tower to keep the ice frozen and a Zamboni  would be more like the $500K and cost prohibitive.  I skate a good amount still and like the idea but I would rather they upgrade the shark.  The Skatium is fine for what it is.  What I do not understand it why the golf course does not have groomed cross country trails.  Unless it is seen as bad for Ole's and Blueberry Lake?  The other thing they could do is a tubing park? 

Living near the village I can see the interest in upgrading the one trail over there.  I met some folks over there that are like the village improvement society.  They have pushed for improvements but the mountain has only a small interest in these upgrades as they no longer have an interest in the real-estate.  I think the only thing that will be implemented is the completion of that lighted walkway once the development is completed what shows on the master plan.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Except for the very top of the mountain, there is no snow off of the snow making trails.  They are pretty much starting from scratch for the natural snow trails and woods.



It surprised me how many people were skiing lower elevation woods this weekend. There's no way that can be good for the base of your skis. I don't even see how that is enjoyable with a couple inches on top of virtually nothing. One person skis a line and you're down to scraping up dirt.


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## phin (Mar 5, 2018)

There were way too many tracks coming out of the woods onto lower birdland given the conditions..   

Folks are thirsty.. yikes.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 5, 2018)

phin said:


> There were way too many tracks coming out of the woods onto lower birdland given the conditions..
> 
> Folks are thirsty.. yikes.



Yeah sounds like some classic sugarbush hardos. Cant wait to see them sprinting to the first lift on sat am......


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> It surprised me how many people were skiing lower elevation woods this weekend. There's no way that can be good for the base of your skis. I don't even see how that is enjoyable with a couple inches on top of virtually nothing. One person skis a line and you're down to scraping up dirt.



I saw a snowboarder Friday walking out of the woods on top of Coffee Run.


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## rtjcbrown (Mar 5, 2018)

Question for *Win*: As Hawk mentioned, is there any consideration for a tubing park? My wife and kids would be a lot more agreeable to more frequent trips to MRV if you had a tubing hill. Seems like a minimal investment that could utilize existing snowmaking, and you could  probably just move Tommy's Toy to serve as the tow.


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2018)

rtjcbrown said:


> Question for *Win*: As Hawk mentioned, is there any consideration for a tubing park? My wife and kids would be a lot more agreeable to more frequent trips to MRV if you had a tubing hill. Seems like a minimal investment that could utilize existing snowmaking, and you could  probably just move Tommy's Toy to serve as the tow.



Aaah the memories of when we would cut tubing lanes in the base area at South at the end of the day for tubing.  What a sh*t show that was.  Tubing is not needed, every mountain has a vibe and Bush's is fine without tubing, a rink, or a petting zoo.  The Sharc could use a lot of love but not a water park.  You come to the Valley to ski not do a slip and slide.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Tubing is not needed, every mountain has a vibe and Bush's is fine without tubing, a rink, or a petting zoo.  The Sharc could use a lot of love but not a water park.  You come to the Valley to ski


 +1


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Yeah sounds like some classic sugarbush hardos. Cant wait to see them sprinting to the first lift on sat am......



They were not hardos, they probably came on a bus judging by the skill and equipment of the few I saw "shredding" it.  Hardos know that 4" on dirt is not enough to open the woods and lower birdland.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Aaah the memories of when we would cut tubing lanes in the base area at South at the end of the day for tubing.  What a sh*t show that was.  Tubing is not needed, every mountain has a vibe and Bush's is fine without tubing, a rink, or a petting zoo.  The Sharc could use a lot of love but not a water park.  You come to the Valley to ski not do a slip and slide.



Ya,  you and I come to ski.  But my sister in law, cousins, nieces and nephews and friends would like more.  Hey, if they can go do things without me, then I don't have to listen to them whine when I blow them off.  ;-)


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> They were not hardos, they probably came on a bus judging by the skill and equipment of the few I saw "shredding" it.  Hardos know that 4" on dirt is not enough to open the woods and lower birdland.



Yup...agree with this.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2018)

Those people came from Egans.  The problem is that the top of Egans like all official woods runs are not roped.  They probably saw the trail and went not knowing how bad it would get.


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## smac75 (Mar 5, 2018)

phin said:


> There were way too many tracks coming out of the woods onto lower birdland given the conditions..
> 
> Folks are thirsty.. yikes.




A good many of those came from cutting over from Stein’s which was brutal on Sat.

ETA- lower tracks I meant was on Mall - cutting over from Stein's.


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## rtjcbrown (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Aaah the memories of when we would cut tubing lanes in the base area at South at the end of the day for tubing.  What a sh*t show that was.  Tubing is not needed, every mountain has a vibe and Bush's is fine without tubing, a rink, or a petting zoo.  The Sharc could use a lot of love but not a water park.  You come to the Valley to ski not do a slip and slide.



But I come to the Valley far less than I'd like to due to the non-skiing members of my family. What is your answer to that besides TS, go somewhere else


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Those people came from Egans.  The problem is that the top of Egans like all official woods runs are not roped.  They probably saw the trail and went not knowing how bad it would get.



Although Reverse Traverse was closed as well (and roped I thought)...so they couldn't get to the entrance to Egans that way. I did see some tracks dropping into the woods off VHT, so they could have made it to Reverse Traverse and Egans that way.

Not that ropes stop people...I saw plenty of tracks going into Domino, Twist, and even a few down Moonshine.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2018)

Yup.  I would agree.


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## smac75 (Mar 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Although Reverse Traverse was closed as well (and roped I thought)...so they couldn't get to the entrance to Egans that way. I did see some tracks dropping into the woods off VHT, so they could have made it to Reverse Traverse and Egans that way.
> 
> Not that ropes stop people...I saw plenty of tracks going into Domino, Twist, and even a few down Moonshine.



One guy ducked morningtstar rope as I was heading up NL. Guess who was one chair behind me? Mr. Smith himself. Classic.


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## djd66 (Mar 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I think a small non-cooled rink above the shark is doable and would have little to no impact on the skatium.  But to put in a good size rink with boards, a warming hut to put your skates on, cooling pipes under the ice and a cooling tower to keep the ice frozen and a Zamboni  would be more like the $500K and cost prohibitive.  I skate a good amount still and like the idea but I would rather they upgrade the shark.  The Skatium is fine for what it is.  What I do not understand it why the golf course does not have groomed cross country trails.  Unless it is seen as bad for Ole's and Blueberry Lake?  The other thing they could do is a tubing park?
> 
> Living near the village I can see the interest in upgrading the one trail over there.  I met some folks over there that are like the village improvement society.  They have pushed for improvements but the mountain has only a small interest in these upgrades as they no longer have an interest in the real-estate.  I think the only thing that will be implemented is the completion of that lighted walkway once the development is completed what shows on the master plan.



Hawk -

I know you are done with me, but your comments above are pretty much what I was referring to.  They don't need to put in a rink with cooling pipes, Just a temporary rink with access to hot water so they can resurface as needed.  I have plenty of friends that build these in their backyards every year and they are certainly not spending $50,000  

Whenever I drive by the Gadd Brook condos - and they seem to be empty.  I know a skating rink will not be the secret sauce to help sell these - but I have to believe the lack of non-skiing activities is certainly not helping the situation.

I also agree in regards to utilizing the golf course for groomed cross country trails and/or snow tubing.  Additions like these would be very inexpensive to implement - but would add a lot in the overall "non-skiing" experience.


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## djd66 (Mar 5, 2018)

phin said:


> There were way too many tracks coming out of the woods onto lower birdland given the conditions..
> 
> Folks are thirsty.. yikes.



Riding up the lift Saturday, I thought the trail may be open - until I saw the closed rope at the top of BL.  Ski shops must love it!


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2018)

There are plenty of rinks there you just need to go find them.  This weekend it was on Steins.


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## djd66 (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> There are plenty of rinks there you just need to go find them.  This weekend it was on Steins.



I have actually always wanted to put on a pair of skates and go down and icy trail.


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Hawk -
> 
> I know you are done with me, but your comments above are pretty much what I was referring to.  They don't need to put in a rink with cooling pipes, Just a temporary rink with access to hot water so they can resurface as needed.  I have plenty of friends that build these in their backyards every year and they are certainly not spending $50,000
> 
> ...



Building a crappy backyard rink and marketing it as a non-skiing amenity will only draw more criticism for it being half-assed at best.

There are two very nice cross country facilites in Warren already, don't need a 3rd.  

One thing I can think of is to expand the existing shuttle service and have 2 going to Waterbury then Burlington in the morning and 2 returning late in the day/evening so people can easily get out of the Valley without driving.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> There are plenty of rinks there you just need to go find them.  This weekend it was on Steins.



Hah...guess I made the right call on not bothering with Stein's this weekend.


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2018)

How about the weather this week?  Fingers crossed...


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2018)

tumbler said:


> How about the weather this week?  Fingers crossed...



The discussion this morning from NWS Burlington that I read was quite optimistic. Not only could we get some snow from the main event of the storm on Thursday, but there's also upslope snow potential lingering after the storm... Latest GFS and NAM both put a healthy amount of snow along the spine of the greens (including our area of VT this time!)


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## WJenness (Mar 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I have actually always wanted to put on a pair of skates and go down and icy trail.


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## MorningWoods (Mar 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Ya,  you and I come to ski.  But my sister in law, cousins, nieces and nephews and friends would like more.  Hey, if they can go do things without me, then I don't have to listen to them whine when I blow them off.  ;-)



I agree with this 100%.  There is A LOT of people that come to Sugarbush and the Valley that would like to do more.  Tear down the SHARC and build something legit.  Not a Jay Peak deal, but something a heck of lot better than what's there today.  I'm down with a economy rink, not a tubing park.  I appreciate that WIN doesn't want to build a carnival, but there is a lot that can be done that doesn't even close to changing the vibe of the mountain.


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## bill-now (Mar 5, 2018)

What is needed is a brew pub with a curling rink.


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## djd66 (Mar 5, 2018)

bill-now said:


> What is needed is a brew pub with a curling rink.



I will settle for 18" of snow this week.


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## Steezus Christ (Mar 5, 2018)

Sugarbush is awesome


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I have actually always wanted to put on a pair of skates and go down and icy trail.



Then you would have loved the post from unofficialsugarbush facebook two years ago.  They had ice skates and hockey sticks, playing around at the base of summit chair at Ellen.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 6, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Then you would have loved the post from unofficialsugarbush facebook two years ago.  They had ice skates and hockey sticks, playing around at the base of summit chair at Ellen.


 There ya go-- no need to build anything.


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 6, 2018)

steezus christ said:


> sugarbush is awesome



praise steezus and can i get a ay-men

halleluah hahahahaha


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## WinS (Mar 6, 2018)

bill-now said:


> What is needed is a brew pub with a curling rink.



Love the first part.  Would love to see some of these ideas turn into investors.


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## WinS (Mar 6, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Then you would have loved the post from unofficialsugarbush facebook two years ago.  They had ice skates and hockey sticks, playing around at the base of summit chair at Ellen.



There was a day this year a few weeks back where is  was almost the same. The groomers did a remarkable job of getting in back to all white with a couple of nights of grooming.


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## WinS (Mar 6, 2018)

smac75 said:


> One guy ducked morningtstar rope as I was heading up NL. Guess who was one chair behind me? Mr. Smith himself. Classic.



Yup. Our top lift operator notified Patrol when he saw that.  One of the features about the new RFID gates is that there are cameras that record everyone through the gates, so having the description of that guy in the green and black jacket we can  go back and look at the photos at the Gatehouse lift and likely  identify who it was if we have a photo in the system which we do for all passholders.  Had be been  hurt poaching that trail, it would have been very unfair and dangerous to have  our patrollers skiing down to help him.


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## WinS (Mar 6, 2018)

rtjcbrown said:


> Question for *Win*: As Hawk mentioned, is there any consideration for a tubing park? My wife and kids would be a lot more agreeable to more frequent trips to MRV if you had a tubing hill. Seems like a minimal investment that could utilize existing snowmaking, and you could  probably just move Tommy's Toy to serve as the tow.



If we had the right location for a Tubing park with the ability to make snow on it, it could make a lot of sense. But taking away an existing trail s not something we want to do..  Agree that we would love to have more of the non-skiing activities.  It is all a question of priorities for CAPEX.


----------



## djd66 (Mar 6, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yup. Our top lift operator notified Patrol when he saw that.  One of the features about the new RFID gates is that there are cameras that record everyone through the gates, so having the description of that guy in the green and black jacket we can  go back and look at the photos at the Gatehouse lift and likely  identify who it was if we have a photo in the system which we do for all passholders.  Had be been  hurt poaching that trail, it would have been very unfair and dangerous to have  our patrollers skiing down to help him.



Wow - good to know big brother is watching!


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 6, 2018)

WJenness said:


>



Love that.Have not seen it on tv this year.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

If Sugarbush / MRG get..... say... 10" from this storm, will that be enough to put all trails and the woods in play?


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## smac75 (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If Sugarbush / MRG get..... say... 10" from this storm, will that be enough to put all trails and the woods in play?



My question too! I'm all for 10" but i'm being greedy and saying I need those 10" on the ground by tomorrow night not by end of day Sat as SB conditions report today mentions.

ETA: I do think 10" will get them back to almost 100%. Should be enough to open Castlerock I would think!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

smac75 said:


> My question too! I'm all for 10" but i'm being greedy and saying I need those 10" on the ground by tomorrow night not by end of day Sat as SB conditions report today mentions.
> 
> ETA: I do think 10" will get them back to almost 100%. Should be enough to open Castlerock I would think!




Not sure where their report is getting that, but the bulk of this storm will be over by tomorrow evening, and BTV has Sugarbush at 12"

https://www.weather.gov/images/btv/winter/StormTotalSnowWeb1.png


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not sure where their report is getting that, but the bulk of this storm will be over by tomorrow evening, and BTV has Sugarbush at 12"
> 
> https://www.weather.gov/images/btv/winter/StormTotalSnowWeb1.png



I don't see anything in their snow report mentioning an amount or that they wouldn't receive said amount until end of Saturday. They say snow may continue into the weekend (which is true from remnants and upslope potential).

As for would 10" be enough...I suppose it depends on the density. Some of the stuff at the bottom of the mountain was pretty damn thin prior to this. I'd say 10" should be good for the top 2/3 of the mountain. The bottom 1/3 I'm not quite as sure about. It might be enough. Even so, I'd still tread very lightly in any lower elevation woods and trails.


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## smac75 (Mar 7, 2018)

It was on their conditions report at 6:30 this morning but hadn't been updated since 4pm yesterday.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2018)

This is the NWS Forecast map as of an hour ago.  It show 12" for the MRV.  The Key word is Forecast.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2018)

It is hard to say what the will open.  Trails like Paradise, lift line, Rumble and sections of Middle Earth are really steep and were patches of ice with rocks and dirt showing last week.  I would bet Spills, castle rock run, Domino and maybe lexi's and moonshine might open.  The woods are totally sketchy and I myself would be really hesitant to go in.


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## djd66 (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If Sugarbush / MRG get..... say... 10" from this storm, will that be enough to put all trails and the woods in play?



It all depends on how eager you are to ski in the woods.  There were people skiing birdland with 3 inches on top of nothing.  If they get the 15-30" that SCWB was talking about yesterday (over the next 3 days) that could be a different story


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## Los (Mar 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It is hard to say what the will open.  Trails like Paradise, lift line, Rumble and sections of Middle Earth are really steep and were patches of ice with rocks and dirt showing last week.  I would bet Spills, castle rock run, Domino and maybe lexi's and moonshine might open.  The woods are totally sketchy and I myself would be really hesitant to go in.



I think Mt Ellen might be faring better than Lincoln peak. This past Sunday the woods between rim run and looking good skied pretty darn good all things considered. And while I didint go in them, the bravinator woods looked great, at least from where I stood at the drop in. All to say that I think 10 inches would solidly reopen the top 2/3rds of mt Ellen (to borrow cdskiers fraction). But yeah, lower third will remain sketchy on the natural trails and in the woods. Walt’s and semi tough were almost completely barren this past weekend.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It is hard to say what the will open.  Trails like Paradise, lift line, Rumble and sections of Middle Earth are really steep and were patches of ice with rocks and dirt showing last week.  I would bet Spills, castle rock run, Domino and maybe lexi's and moonshine might open.  The woods are totally sketchy and I myself would be really hesitant to go in.



FWIW, Spills and Paradise are already reopened (not saying I would ski them yet...but they're open)


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This is the NWS Forecast map as of an hour ago.  It show 12" for the MRV.  The Key word is Forecast.
> View attachment 23434




Weather wonks seem to think this BTV snowfall output has a big chance of busting outside of s.VT.  I sure hope they're wrong.


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## WinS (Mar 7, 2018)

It all depends on how it tracks. Our forecaster this morning is estimating 9-13" but he is often conservative.  We already have had some snow coming in and there is around 2" up top at 11:30am. I was skiing at ME early today and it was coming down reasonably hard for a while but it is off and on now as the storm downs South forms.  That is what will be coming up here later today, so we are already ahead of the forecasters.  Given the temps, the snow is likely to be in between Sierra cement and Utah powder so it should bond well and that is good for trail openings.  The real call will come Thursday morning as Patrol does there assessment, but I would expect that trails like Twist, Moonshine, The Mall, Black Diamond, Domino, Tumbler and Hammerhead would be ready to go.  I also think there is a good chance for Castlerock but we will have to see how the storm shapes up later today and tonight.  It does look like light snow and flurries will continue over the mountain through the weekend with some more accumulation possible.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

WinS said:


> It *all depends on how it tracks.*



That's the problem.  The storm has kicked east like the Euro said it would.  So it looks like your forecaster is going to be correct, I hope.  Might be a bit dicey now.

 When BTV released their package yesterday, they specifically said they were tossing the Euro.  Oops.   Now just hoping for the best.  If Sugarbush to Smuggs could get 10" to 8" respectively, I'd be happy with that at this point for ski country.  Hoping for elevation to save the day or outperform.


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## tumbler (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's the problem.  The storm has kicked east like the Euro said it would.  So it looks like your forecaster is going to be correct, I hope.  Might be a bit dicey now.
> 
> When BTV released their package yesterday, they specifically said they were tossing the Euro.  Oops.   Now just hoping for the best.  If Sugarbush to Smuggs could get 10" to 8" respectively, I'd be happy with that at this point for ski country.  Hoping for elevation to save the day or outperform.



I think elevation will be a big factor and the upslope for the days after.  Hard to forecast the upslope amount but have had some pretty deep days there just on upslope alone.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I think elevation will be a big factor and the upslope for the days after.  *Hard to forecast the upslope amount *but have had some pretty deep days there just on upslope alone.



Exactly.  Mountain snow forecasting cant be fun


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 7, 2018)

You won’t be able to stop the carnage that’s about to happen


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Exactly.  Mountain snow forecasting cant be fun



Depends on your perspective. The upside potential to localized terrain enhanced snow can be very fun to attempt to forecast as long as you aren't held accountable for the accuracy. Nailing down an accurate forecast is sure difficult though.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's the problem.  The storm has kicked east like the Euro said it would.  So it looks like your forecaster is going to be correct, I hope.  Might be a bit dicey now.
> 
> When BTV released their package yesterday, they specifically said they were tossing the Euro.  Oops.   Now just hoping for the best.  If Sugarbush to Smuggs could get 10" to 8" respectively, I'd be happy with that at this point for ski country.  Hoping for elevation to save the day or outperform.


This sounds like you follow American Weather forums.  This is exactly like what one of the posters said earlier.   Unless you are that person.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This sounds like you follow American Weather forums.  This is exactly like what one of the posters said earlier.   Unless you are that person.



Not me.  It's public information, BTV released a short write-up yesterday of how/why they're coming to their conclusion for the storm, but sadly it looks like they're most likely going to bust high unless something changes.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 7, 2018)

Of course this is the weekend I choose to go to the bush over So. VT... kinda crazy that mount snow has a higher season total to date than the bush.... guess its just their year


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## tumbler (Mar 7, 2018)

^ That still looks pretty good.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

tumbler said:


> ^ That still looks pretty good.



Plus there is still a very good chance for on and off mountain snow through the weekend in the MRV...


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 7, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Depends on your perspective. The upside potential to localized terrain enhanced snow can be very fun to attempt to forecast as long as you aren't held accountable for the accuracy. Nailing down an accurate forecast is sure difficult though.


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## ducky (Mar 8, 2018)

Rumble pretty good, rocks of course, but lots of snow. Quick vid of my kid picking his way down...

[video]https://www.instagram.com/p/BgEhh7xB8T2/[/video]


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## Hawk (Mar 8, 2018)

ducky said:


> Rumble pretty good, rocks of course, but lots of snow. Quick vid of my kid picking his way down...
> 
> [video]https://www.instagram.com/p/BgEhh7xB8T2/[/video]


Ducky your kid looks to be learning from the school of Egan with those turns.  ;-)  Also if you are who I think you are, I met you at the Bundy when we bought a Marilyn Ruseckas at one of the art shows.  That is a cool place up there.


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## WinS (Mar 8, 2018)

ducky said:


> Rumble pretty good, rocks of course, but lots of snow. Quick vid of my kid picking his way down...
> 
> [video]https://www.instagram.com/p/BgEhh7xB8T2/[/video]


It was really good. Did early turns at ME. Like the forecast for the next ten days.


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2018)

ducky said:


> Rumble pretty good, rocks of course, but lots of snow. Quick vid of my kid picking his way down...
> 
> [video]https://www.instagram.com/p/BgEhh7xB8T2/[/video]


Makes it look easy.


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## WinS (Mar 9, 2018)

The top portions of CR are really nice this morning but sketchier lower down.  The first out there this morning are going to find some really nice powder like I did on CR Run and Lower Lift Line.    We are going to keep is for hiking only until we get a bit more snow after it gets skied in.


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## smac75 (Mar 9, 2018)

WinS said:


> The top portions of CR are really nice this morning but sketchier lower down.  The first out there this morning are going to find some really nice powder like I did on CR Run and Lower Lift Line.    We are going to keep is for hiking only until we get a bit more snow after it gets skied in.



Will lift be running tomorrow for CR Extreme?


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## WinS (Mar 9, 2018)

smac75 said:


> Will lift be running tomorrow for CR Extreme?



No. Unfortunately the course won't hold up with the cover there. We are moving the Extreme to start at lower half of Murphy's and into Lower Birdland.  It will still be hiking only tomorrow over to CR.  It is really nice for a limited number and would be really lousy for a lot on CR until it gets skied in and we get some more snow.

We did assess Slidebrook, however, today and there is enough snow pack for  both our lift mechanics to get in safely and quickly so  it will be  scheduled to run tomorrow at 10am.


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2018)

I hope all who came this weekend a great time. I certainly did.  We received more snow last night than the forecast so the snowpack is now good enough to allow more volume on Castlerock so we are scheduling the lift to run tomorrow and through the week as well as Slidebrook.  The reports I heard were that SB was skiing as well as any day this winter even with some sketchy areas still, but I did not  get in myself.  Let's hope the forecast holds.  March is looking really nice.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 11, 2018)

WinS said:


> I hope all who came this weekend a great time. I certainly did.  We received more snow last night than the forecast so the snowpack is now good enough to allow more volume on Castlerock so we are scheduling the lift to run tomorrow and through the week as well as Slidebrook.  The reports I heard were that SB was skiing as well as any day this winter even with some sketchy areas still, but I did not  get in myself.  Let's hope the forecast holds.  March is looking really nice.



Mtn skied great all weekend.  Non existent crowds today at Lincoln Peak.  The new snow last night seemed pretty deep up top.  Photo from around Paradise


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Mtn skied great all weekend.  Non existent crowds today at Lincoln Peak.  The new snow last night seemed pretty deep up top.  Photo from around Paradise



Seriously...great weekend! Although I thought today at Lincoln was "crowded" for a Sunday. Definitely seemed deeper than 6" on a good part of the mountain today.


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## jimmck (Mar 11, 2018)

Seriously, a fun day out there.  As was started, never really crowded at Lincoln Peak.

Fourth chair at Heaven's Gate this morning.  The subsequent run down Ripcord was serious fun.

Found some really deep pockets on Organgrinder and Sunrise.

The hike over to Castlerock was worth it.  Middle Earth was my pick of the day.









Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2018)

I love sunrise on a powder day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2018)

I'm psyched to be spending probably 3 days at Sugarbush this week!  I've only skied one day there and I was blown away...there's so much to explore I can't wait!  And could there be a better week this winter????  Some sun tomorrow morning and then snow until...umm...well...who knows!!

I'm also doing a day at Stowe and a day at MRG.


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I'm psyched to be spending probably 3 days at Sugarbush this week!  I've only skied one day there and I was blown away...there's so much to explore I can't wait!  And could there be a better week this winter????  Some sun tomorrow morning and then snow until...umm...well...who knows!!
> 
> I'm also doing a day at Stowe and a day at MRG.



I’ve skied there my entire life and I’m still not bored with it at all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2018)

Some of the best skiing of the year for me.  2 laps on Castle Rock and many other runs - my legs are fried!


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2018)

13 year old boys assaulted by some mid 50 year old guy this weekend.  I heard about this 3rd from some friends.  I heard the patrol was involved and they pulled the guy's pass.  Sounds like a real sick puppy to beat up a 13 year old boy.  Anyone else hear anything about this? I hope the guy who did this was arrested and has to spend time in jail.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2018)

djd66 said:


> 13 year old boys assaulted by some mid 50 year old guy this weekend.  I heard about this 3rd from some friends.  I heard the patrol was involved and they pulled the guy's pass.  Sounds like a real sick puppy to beat up a 13 year old boy.  Anyone else hear anything about this? I hope the guy who did this was arrested and has to spend time in jail.



Yes- He started screaming at a Blazer group that cut the line at Bravo in the ski school line.  His beligerence crossed the line when he started hurling profanity and insults at pre-teen and early teen kids and the kids defended themselves.  The kids should have ignored him but it happened.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

Wow.  That is so out of control.  I Didn't see this but I am surprised that more people didn't get involved and defended the kids.  Sometimes I can't understand what comes over people.


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## djd66 (Mar 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Yes- He started screaming at a Blazer group that cut the line at Bravo in the ski school line.  His beligerence crossed the line when he started hurling profanity and insults at pre-teen and early teen kids and the kids defended themselves.  The kids should have ignored him but it happened.



I had heard it went beyond profanity and he followed the boys up on the MTN and physically assaulted them.  Fricken crazy!!


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I had heard it went beyond profanity and he followed the boys up on the MTN and physically assaulted them.  Fricken crazy!!



Wow. Even with just the profanity I'd still ban him permanently from the mountain. No need for that at all ever.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 12, 2018)

Was there this weekend. Not surprised by this. I've never been to a mountain that has such high tension over getting a couple inches of fresh before others at any cost. It almost takes the fun out of it. Ill save my rat racing for the real deep stuff


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Was there this weekend. Not surprised by this. I've never been to a mountain that has such high tension over getting a couple inches of fresh before others at any cost. It almost takes the fun out of it. Ill save my rat racing for the real deep stuff



I didn't experience this at all...but I also went directly to Mt Ellen on Saturday morning knowing it would be quieter. Was on the lift a couple minutes after 8 and never had anyone in a rush to beat me anywhere. Sunday morning I was at Lincoln Peak. There was an initial line at Super Bravo of people waiting for it to open, but it wasn't that long and was gone by 8:05 when I was done tightening my boots. Never felt any of this tension you mention. But maybe it is also because I'm ok with not being absolutely first in line.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2018)

Well on the bright side those kids learned never to cut in line again.


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## WinS (Mar 12, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I had heard it went beyond profanity and he followed the boys up on the MTN and physically assaulted them.  Fricken crazy!!



Yes.  I am very aware of what happened and know the parents well.  We have never seen anything like this here at Sugarbush. It was not a passholder, and his ticket was taken away and he is hot listed.  Our patroller was right there and took immediate and effective action. It happened so quickly that it would have been hard for anyone to step in the middle of this. No one was injured fortunately and the parents coincidentally were in Allyn's and came over quickly. We tracked the guy down on the slopes, got his name and address and met with the boys, their coach and the father of the boy who has attacked.  He did not want to press charges and that was his decision as well as the parents of the other boy who came to the defense of his friend and was thrown to the ground.  Fortunately, 99.9% of Sugarbush skiers and riders are wonderful people and this is something hopefully we will never see again.

I think it is a lesson though to all of us.  Civility keeps a civilization together. While we all can get frustrated and mad at others, there is a right way of behaving and then they are unacceptable ways which can not be tolerated. Attacking a 14 year old kid is disgraceful and cowardly too.


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## mikec142 (Mar 12, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Was there this weekend. Not surprised by this. I've never been to a mountain that has such high tension over getting a couple inches of fresh before others at any cost. It almost takes the fun out of it. Ill save my rat racing for the real deep stuff



Personally, I've never experienced anything like this.  Granted, I'm not one who is going to stand in line for the first chair, but my experience is that there is a laid back, friendly vibe at Sugarbush that I appreciate and is one of the reasons I frequent Sugarbush.


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## djd66 (Mar 12, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes.  I am very aware of what happened and know the parents well.  We have never seen anything like this here at Sugarbush. It was not a passholder, and his ticket was taken away and he is hot listed.  Our patroller was right there and took immediate and effective action. It happened so quickly that it would have been hard for anyone to step in the middle of this. No one was injured fortunately and the parents coincidentally were in Allyn's and came over quickly. We tracked the guy down on the slopes, got his name and address and met with the boys, their coach and the father of the boy who has attacked.  He did not want to press charges and that was his decision as well as the parents of the other boy who came to the defense of his friend and was thrown to the ground.  Fortunately, 99.9% of Sugarbush skiers and riders are wonderful people and this is something hopefully we will never see again.
> 
> I think it is a lesson though to all of us.  Civility keeps a civilization together. While we all can get frustrated and mad at others, there is a right way of behaving and then they are unacceptable ways which can not be tolerated. Attacking a 14 year old kid is disgraceful and cowardly too.



Thanks for the follow up Win.  If it were my kids,... I would not have been so understanding.  Quite honestly- someone like this should have been charged - I would not want to know what else he was capable of.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 12, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well on the bright side those kids learned never to cut in line again.




That's a pretty stupid comment to make by someone who has no knowledge of what happened


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 12, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> Personally, I've never experienced anything like this.  Granted, I'm not one who is going to stand in line for the first chair, but my experience is that there is a laid back, friendly vibe at Sugarbush that I appreciate and is one of the reasons I frequent Sugarbush.



Just read a couple pages back. The whole Blazers vs. Bush hardos is very real. and sad.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Just read a couple pages back. The whole Blazers vs. Bush hardos is very real. and sad.



Gregory, maybe you should reread what was said back a couple of pages.  There are no hard feelings against the blazers.


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## djd66 (Mar 12, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> That's a pretty stupid comment to make by someone who has no knowledge of what happened



+1


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Gregory, maybe you should reread what was said back a couple of pages.  There are no hard feelings against the blazers.



Got it. Your just "sad" and "feelings are hurt" because of them. My bad


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> there is a laid back, friendly vibe at Sugarbush



Not to be contrary, but I find this to be the opposite of the case. The way I've been treated by Sugarbush employees, I will never return.

On top of that I get to avoid: Bad snowmaking. Crowded parking lot. Skied off trails. Lift lines. Overpriced everything.

There is some good skiing to be had there, so I hope eventually they have new ownership who keep their employees in check and not act like self righteous teenagers and then taking it to social media when a customer expresses a different point of view.

Good mountain, but the lower level employees there will decide if you're part of their clique or not. From what I can tell this a top down attitude as Sugarbush seems to take political and controversial stances more than other mountains. I simply mentioned not all your customers agree with you and got hammered by a dozen plus employees, on social media mind you (when I was still on it), all telling me basically go ski elsewhere if you don't agree with our latest political position. Totally unprofessional and all their snow can melt until new ownership for all I care.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> That's a pretty stupid comment to make by someone who has no knowledge of what happened



The internet is very serious today.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Not to be contrary, but I find this to be the opposite of the case. The way I've been treated by Sugarbush employees, I will never return.



Can't say I've ever met any Sugarbush employees that have been anything but nice and friendly. Lift Ops, Snowmakers, Groomers, Bartenders, Greeters, Ski Patrol...all have been laid back and great people anytime I've had an interaction with them.



> On top of that I get to avoid: Bad snowmaking. Crowded parking lot. Skied off trails. Lift lines. Overpriced everything.



I don't find their prices to be higher than any other of the major mountains in VT. Longest lift line I've waited on this year has been maybe 5 minutes. Skied off trails will happen anywhere if it is a heavily used trail, so really not sure how SB differs from other areas in this aspect. There's plenty that don't get skied off too (plus endless woods). Crowded parking lot? What does this even mean? They have a shuttle running through the lot so no matter how close or far away you park this shouldn't be an issue. 



> There is some good skiing to be had there, so I hope eventually they have new ownership who keep their employees in check and not act like self righteous teenagers and then taking it to social media when a customer expresses a different point of view.



I completely disagree with you and think Win and his partners have been excellent owners. Do I agree with every decision? Certainly not. But overall I think they've done a tremendous job with making the resort a great and very special place. On top of that, Win is very visible and approachable. I have no interest in seeing any change in ownership. I also don't see any issues on any recent social media posts that I've seen with any inappropriate employee comments.


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## bumpcrasher (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Not to be contrary, but I find this to be the opposite of the case. The way I've been treated by Sugarbush employees, I will never return.
> 
> On top of that I get to avoid: Bad snowmaking. Crowded parking lot. Skied off trails. Lift lines. Overpriced everything.
> 
> ...



Ahh, you want to talk about snowmaking, I am right there with ya but employees....Come on!?!  They really do have awesome people working at the mountain who are super-friendly.  From the parking lot attendants, lift-ops, patrol and certainly everyone at CRP!!  Hey, it's a LONG season and they have to put up with all of us.  Everyone has a bad day or maybe you got flamed on social media in a political conversation (we're all internet heroes!)  Yet if you come on back, I think you would see the same thing.   And please please...don't wish for our snow to melt....it's finally good now!!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> *I don't find their prices to be higher than any other of the major mountains in VT*.



I like Sugarbush, and disagree with much of what he said, I generally think Sugarbush is a pretty great place. But I do agree with him that the price is obviously high from the standpoint of the entire value proposition, which is the #1 thing (the only thing actually) that keeps me from skiing Sugarbush more often.   Why should I ski Sugarbush when I can ski as good or better terrain in n.VT for substantially cheaper lift ticket pricing?


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I completely disagree with you.



I would expect so as you weren't involved in the situation. I think you're probably a regular person though and if you had a dozen SB employees go out of their way to insult you it would be a different situation.

The event took place over a year ago; I have not been on social media really in over a year so idk if anything has changed. At the time SB was using social media to virtue signal against certain political positions related to the election. I stated very mildly that doing so is dividing their customer base and they should not assume everyone agrees with their positions. The response was incredible and several of their employees felt entitled enough to tell me not to come back anymore.

So I won't. But I still post here!

And yeah I do blame the upper management if they never bothered to tell their employees that the customer is always right -- or at least hold you tongue if it's a minor disagreement. I can count how much $$$$ I've spent at SB over the years. It will be a lot easier to count from now on.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I like Sugarbush, and disagree with much of what he said, I generally think Sugarbush is a pretty great place. But I do agree with him that the price is obviously high from the standpoint of the entire value proposition, which is the #1 thing (the only thing actually) that keeps me from skiing Sugarbush more often.   Why should I ski Sugarbush when I can ski as good or better terrain in n.VT for substantially cheaper lift ticket pricing?



So for "as good or better terrain" that leaves Jay, Stowe, maybe Smuggs in N VT as the areas you're referring to? Stowe day ticket rates are higher. Jay certainly is cheaper, but it is also a 2 hour longer drive coming from NJ (important for me, but maybe not for others). Smuggs is cheaper too, but a bit of a pain to get to and no high speed lifts. I guess it somewhat depends what is important to you for how you're defining value. I'll agree that SB's normal day ticket rates are high. I've felt that way for a while. However, plan in advance and buy a quad pack for Sugarbush though and you drop your lift ticket price way down. (~$55-60 if I remember right). That's a pretty good value in my book unless Jay/Stowe/Smuggs have other discounts that bring their normal prices even lower than that (not saying they don't, I honestly don't remember).

Season passes are also competitively priced in my book. Right now I have my cost per day down to around $20.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

Everybody has a unique perspective. I was not there so I can't tell what was said or who said what.  Hell I think is was cdskier and I that had opposing views on Alpine Options. He had a bad experience and I am friends with those guys so we obviously do not see things the same about them. What I don't understand is how you knew that the people on the internet where employees.  Honestly the grand majority or employees are locals that have been there for years and work very hard to make SB a great place.  I have never had an issue with any of them.  As for cost, Quad packs are $50 a day and pre purchased tickets are $60 to $90 a day non-holiday.  That is not too bad compared to similar places.  I won't comment on snowmaking. ;-) If you feel that way then that is too bad because it's really a good place with good people.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> So for "as good or better terrain" that leaves Jay, Stowe, maybe Smuggs in N VT



Or 2 miles up the road. I like places that unite people based on a common love of skiing. Not the places that are happy to divide people to make some political statement taking advantage of a mass casualty, which has nothing to do with skiing but I guess makes the college students feel good about themselves.

I don't really care about their prices as I get half off anyway or snowmaking as I ski MRG whenever possible 

Really I like most mountains except the ones that don't appreciate my business and make it clear to me.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Everybody has a unique perspective. I was not there so I can't tell what was said or who said what.  Hell I think is was cdskier and I that had opposing views on Alpine Options. He had a bad experience and I am friends with those guys so we obviously do not see things the same about them. What I don't understand is how you knew that the people on the internet where employees.  Honestly the grand majority or employees are locals that have been there for years and work very hard to make SB a great place.  I have never had an issue with any of them.  As for cost, Quad packs are $50 a day and pre purchased tickets are $60 to $90 a day non-holiday.  That is not too bad compared to similar places.  I won't comment on snowmaking. ;-) If you feel that way then that is too bad because it's really a good place with good people.



Hah...good memory Hawk!

I'm kind of curious about your point of how he knew they were employees too. I fully agree that it is a really good place with really good people. I'm really very surprised to hear about tuna's experience online as it is completely different than anything I've ever experienced in person.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

Kind of easy to hover over somebody's name on social media and if it says they are a SB employee, I assume they are.

My point goes to a larger one about how companies engage in political subjects.

After Sugarbush attempting to take a "side" (as if there are sides besides good and evil) on a mass shooting, virtue signaling on the LGBT community and how we need to stop the "hate". I mentioned the guy who shot 'em up idolized ISIS and it seemed they mischaracterized the incident; that did not go over well... the 2nd occasion was Sugarbush making a statement denoucing the USA's withdrawal from the Paris Climate Accord, and I think my response to that one was actually very mild stating how I don't think it would have mattered anyway and it was a giveaway to other countries. That went over much less well.

And I will say again it was a matter of enough employees I could count on 2+ hands chiming in, to me, a customer mind you, expressing an objection to SB taking sides on political issues. It very quickly amounted to a "we don't want you here anyway" situation.

So, as the patron of a business (Sugarbush) am I the one expected to hold my tongue when they take a controversial stance? Or should it be the low level employees holding their tongue when a customer, who they don't know and for all they know could be one of their best customers, has a different view?

As far as I'm concerned it worked out fine. Sugarbush weeded out the evil Trump voter from their midst, and I know where I'm not welcome.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

I had a feeling it was something like that.  Politics, religion and snowmaking are taboo on here and at sugarbush.  Didn't you know?  Geeze!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

It just strikes me in bad taste when companies decide to get up on a moral high horse on issues like "hate" and "the environment" and then cannot handle the slightest debate on a subject that they've gone out on a limb with in the first place.

Really hoping to avoid debating any of these topics *here*... my message is more one for Win S to absorb. I really have nothing else to say about it unless Win or an SB employees cares to respond.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2018)

Uh, kinda sounds like you posted on SB's FB page looking for this type of reaction.  So they support the LGBT community after a mass shooting in the first state that legalized same sex marriage?  Express disappointment in the USA pulling out of a global warming accord because they are in the business of winter sports?  I recall many ski areas expressing the same feelings.

The employees are locals that work hard, the same locals that work at MRG, Bolton Valley, Jay and all the other places you profess your love for.  Did you go looking for a fight on their FB pages?


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## slatham (Mar 12, 2018)

I too do not like ski areas chiming in on political issues - not the right forum - whether or not I agree with them. Plenty of opportunities in this country to be divided, let's leave the ski areas out of it.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 12, 2018)

Be Better Here


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## benski (Mar 12, 2018)

Where has Sugarbush been commenting on mass shootings and LGBT. As for the Paris accord, they were a clear winner from the deal, and loser when trump decided to symbolically end it.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Uh, kinda sounds like you posted on SB's FB page looking for this type of reaction.  So they support the LGBT community after a mass shooting in the first state that legalized same sex marriage?  Express disappointment in the USA pulling out of a global warming accord because they are in the business of winter sports?  I recall many ski areas expressing the same feelings.
> 
> The employees are locals that work hard, the same locals that work at MRG, Bolton Valley, Jay and all the other places you profess your love for.  Did you go looking for a fight on their FB pages?



No but nice try. It was in regards to the Florida shooting by the way.

Personally, I've never worked for a company where I was allowed to escalate political arguments and make personally offensive comments to customers.

In your view I have a duty to not respond to political statements made by businesses, and if I do, it's me "looking for a reaction". Gotcha.

So how far, in your view, should employees go in response to a *paying long time customer* who disagrees? Anything they say is right, and anything I say is wrong, correct?


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> It just strikes me in bad taste when companies decide to get up on a moral high horse on issues like "hate" and "the environment" and then cannot handle the slightest debate on a subject that they've gone out on a limb with in the first place.
> 
> Really hoping to avoid debating any of these topics *here*... my message is more one for Win S to absorb. I really have nothing else to say about it unless Win or an SB employees cares to respond.


I wouldn't never speak for Mr. Smith but I would think that his views and his employees views on such divisive topics are not the unified stance of the corporation. I doubt he would even address this.  But standing here outside of this debate, and knowing the totally liberal atmosphere in Warren VT, I can understand why you were not received very well.  You only have to go to the 4th of July parade to fully understand how they feel about the current administration, the environment and the LGBT community.  It would be like me going to a bar in Montana and preaching gun control.  Why bother?  It not the place for that. Now if you feel that you have to go and do that, then expect what you get.  I would.  But then again I shouldn't talk as I have been on the outside also.  Oh well, I guess it is a free country.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> So how far, in your view, should employees go in response to a *paying long time customer* who disagrees? Anything they say is right, and anything I say is wrong, correct?


Neither is right or wrong.  They are opinions and I doubt that the people that attacked you were current employees.  I am sure that the Management would not allow people to do that on the company page.   That is my opinion at least.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

I get that Hawk. But I do not enjoy being labeled a "hater" of LGBT or anti-environment... which are absurd statements to folks who know me... because I point out a different angle.

Every company needs to do it's own math on this stuff. I'm just letting SB know that there are folks paying attention who disagree.



Hawk said:


> Neither is right or wrong.  They are opinions and I doubt that the people that attacked you were current employees.  I am sure that the Management would not allow people to do that on the company page.   That is my opinion at least.



I no longer have social media to go look it up, but I assure you this was the case. If it were not I wouldn't be mentioning this at all, obviously.

I am all about a company's right to virtue signal however they want. I simply decide if I will keep supporting them based on that. But the reaction from SB employees was very cult like and gave me a very bad taste for the entire organization. SB management *must* have been aware, or else they are negligent of their customer relations.


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## NYDB (Mar 12, 2018)




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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> I get that Hawk. But I do not enjoy being labeled a "hater" of LGBT or anti-environment... which are absurd statements to folks who know me... because I point out a different angle.
> 
> Every company needs to do it's own math on this stuff. I'm just letting SB know that there are folks paying attention who disagree.


Fair enough.  It pissed you off enough to go into depth about it.  Maybe someone is listening.  I guess if I was labeled I would be pissed off too.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

oh man I want that sticker


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 12, 2018)

Peace, Love, and a Ton of snow


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2018)

slatham said:


> *I too do not like ski areas chiming in on political issues - not the right forum - whether or not I agree with them. *Plenty of opportunities in this country to be divided, let's leave the ski areas out of it.



Agreed.

And from the opposite standpoint (i.e. that of the ski company), from the business management aspect it's like nails-on-a-chalkboard to me.   Simply self-destructive behavior financially.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

There are a lot of ski resorts and skiing related companies that spoke out on the climate change topic...just look at all the partners of organizations like POW. Any organization that supports POW essentially made the same statement that Sugarbush did on that topic. You can debate whether this is right or wrong for these companies to do, but to single out Sugarbush as the only one that did this is a bit of a stretch. They were absolutely not alone.


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## 1dog (Mar 12, 2018)

*The sell them*



bdfreetuna said:


> oh man I want that sticker



 @ the Warren Store and MRG - $47.95 for season pass holders. Free for those not able to afford passes. 


We got a Constitutional Republic and everyone has the same leverage - a vote.


I know plenty of people who intensely disliked the previous Occupant and just waited till the Constitution took its course. 

Patience and the attitude of the Rhode Island fellow is called for ' I disagree with all you say, but I'll fight for your right to state it until death.' Paraphrasing of course. 

And skiing /riding is this forums subject. Lots of other places for debating open markets  as opposed to central control ( and that is what this is all about in politics these days)

Imagine if we get our season average this year - thats 150 or so additional inches between now and May!

Could happen. 

Ski on


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There are a lot of ski resorts and skiing related companies that spoke out on the climate change topic...just look at all the partners of organizations like POW. Any organization that supports POW essentially made the same statement that Sugarbush did on that topic. You can debate whether this is right or wrong for these companies to do, but to single out Sugarbush as the only one that did this is a bit of a stretch. They were absolutely not alone.



You are right, many resorts did virtue signal around the same time on the topic, mostly ones that are aligned with that POW lobby group.

So, that's not my complaint. And I'm not singling out SB on that. The Florida shooting / LGBT commentary I think was even more politicized and irrelevant from a skiing perspective. But they are free to have their views.

I think instead of going over this again and again you can figure out my actual complaint from what I've already stated.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> You are right, many resorts did virtue signal around the same time on the topic, mostly ones that are aligned with that POW lobby group.
> 
> So, that's not my complaint. And I'm not singling out SB on that. The Florida shooting / LGBT commentary I think was even more politicized and irrelevant from a skiing perspective. But they are free to have their views.
> 
> I think instead of going over this again and again you can figure out my actual complaint from what I've already stated.



No, I understand your complaint. It was that you didn't agree with the response you received. I remember the climate related posts on FB and do remember there being some heated comments on there so I just looked back at them. Other than a response from Win, I only see one response from an employee that I recognize (or maybe a former employee as not even sure he still works there). That response was quite professional and didn't tell anyone to go elsewhere if they disagreed. If you are no longer active on FB, then it is possible your post (and any responses) wouldn't show. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but without seeing what was said and who said it, it is difficult to say whether it was out of line. The other post you referenced I couldn't find and I really don't remember that one.

All I can say is that I've never personally experienced any non-professional behavior from any staff and never seen anything like that on social media either.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 12, 2018)

^^ You are mostly correct, although I already knew the response would be disagreement, as I posted in respectful disagreement to their political posture (twice).

I just remember two incidents, already described what events they involved, treated with hostility from a number of SB workers. Perhaps I should not have tried to engage the second time, but as I said I don't have accounts with that garbage any more and glad to hear my posts aren't on there anymore as one would hope when they leave a platform.

From what I remember vaguely, Win did come on and post diplomatically at least on one occasion. I'm not laying this on Win. But, perhaps the thread is deleted, I have no idea, I will state plainly again that the behavior of his employees on social media towards myself was completely unacceptable for a local liquor store let alone a ski resort.

I have been off this platform for most of a year now so it's going to be hard to parse details. I expect if you are looking at the relevant posts already and don't see my comment and then a 100 reply heated discussion involving mostly SB employees after that-- then it just ain't there anymore.

Just so it's clear -- I'm not trying to escalate some dispute. I am just stating the truth of what happened. If Win wants to chime in, fine. No idea why I decided to bring this up today to be honest.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2018)

This is the type of debate for bad snow times. Let’s talk the snow and skiing!!


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> This is the type of debate for bad snow times. Let’s talk the snow and skiing!!



Sure...why not!

Mt Ellen on Saturday:




Lincoln Peak Sunday morning:


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 13, 2018)

Nice shots


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## rtjcbrown (Mar 13, 2018)

In the almost 30 years that I have been going to Sugarbush, I have never had an issue with an employee. They have been nothing but professional. I especially remember on summer that I went hiking, and left my boots and some expensive equipment behind, in the base  lodge after getting changed. It was not until I returned to NJ that I realized my mistake. I made a call to the SB main office to ask if anything had been turned in. She made some calls, and got back to me within an hour. Not only had everything been located by the cleaning crew, but they had also UPS'd it back to me at their expense. A display of honesty and integrity that is so hard to find these days. I will be forever grateful, and loyal to them for their actions.


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## Hawk (Mar 13, 2018)

They upped the forecast to 18 to 24 up top.  The only rub is the wind.  I am thinking that late Wednesday or Thursday will be a good call considering possible lift closures.  Worth monitoring.


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## benski (Mar 13, 2018)

From what I here Sugarbush's GM under the ASC in the late 90's used to throw temper-tantrums in parking lot on people, so they have had issues with employees.


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## mikec142 (Mar 13, 2018)

I don't think the staff and ownership at Sugarbush needs any more defending because their actions speak for themselves.  But I want to briefly relate three stories (that I've probably already told further back in this thread).

A couple of years back during a holiday weekend, I arranged for a private lesson for my family of four.  During the lesson, it was clear that my family wasn't hitting it off with the instructor and were not having a great time.  I was going to write it off as one of those uncontrollable things, but my wife said to mention it to the ski school people as the lesson was a lot of money.  I spoke with Russ Kauff (not sure if he's still there) who was the head of the ski school at the time.  He immediately said, "what can I do to make this situation better for you and your family."  No arguing, no passing the buck.  Just quick, decisive action.  He immediately arranged for afternoon private lessons for my two girls with not one, but two, awesome young instructors.  My kids frowns turned to huge smiles right away.  To me, this was the perfect way to handle what could have been an unpleasant experience for us.  Instead, Russ made us Sugarbush skiers for life.

Another quick story, this past Christmas Day, I was skiing with three families (15 people) and we finished the day in Castlerock Pub.  We didn't realize that they were shutting the kitchen down and when we found out, we were in a panic as to where we could have dinner for 15 people.  Without us even asking, the bartender (big guy with an amazing white beard) called around and got us a reservation at the HydeAway for an hour later.  Saved us a ton of anxiety and frustration.

Lastly, I usually drop my wife and kids at the base of LP in the lot and then go park the car, leaving my wife and kids to lug our skis up the steps.  The guys in the parking lot at the equipment drop off always rush over and help my family to carry the equipment up the steps.

The skiing and vibe at Sugarbush is great so I would ski there anyway.  But these extra touches are why I consider Sugarbush my home mountain even though it's 5.5 hours from where I live.


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## rocks860 (Mar 13, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I don't think the staff and ownership at Sugarbush needs any more defending because their actions speak for themselves.  But I want to briefly relate three stories (that I've probably already told further back in this thread).
> 
> A couple of years back during a holiday weekend, I arranged for a private lesson for my family of four.  During the lesson, it was clear that my family wasn't hitting it off with the instructor and were not having a great time.  I was going to write it off as one of those uncontrollable things, but my wife said to mention it to the ski school people as the lesson was a lot of money.  I spoke with Russ Kauff (not sure if he's still there) who was the head of the ski school at the time.  He immediately said, "what can I do to make this situation better for you and your family."  No arguing, no passing the buck.  Just quick, decisive action.  He immediately arranged for afternoon private lessons for my two girls with not one, but two, awesome young instructors.  My kids frowns turned to huge smiles right away.  To me, this was the perfect way to handle what could have been an unpleasant experience for us.  Instead, Russ made us Sugarbush skiers for life.
> 
> ...



Guy at the bar was Shawn (Sean?). Great guy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 13, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> A couple of years back during a holiday weekend, I arranged for a private lesson for my family of four.  During the lesson, it was clear that my family wasn't hitting it off with the instructor and were not having a great time.



Was the instructor's name Andrea by any chance?


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## rocks860 (Mar 13, 2018)

I’m thinking of trying to make it up a week from Saturday. Have to dog sit this weekend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WinS (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks for the comments about our team here at Sugarbush.  I am blessed to have just nice people on the team who really are dedicated to doing the best job for our guests, and they work really hard at it.

Tomorrow we will be opening both GMX and Northridge Express at 8am so anyone up here can enjoy some early powder.  Drive safely - the roads are slippery and snow is steadily falling.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2018)

WinS said:


> Thanks for the comments about our team here at Sugarbush.  I am blessed to have just nice people on the team who really are dedicated to doing the best job for our guests, and they work really hard at it.
> 
> Tomorrow we will be opening both GMX and Northridge Express at 8am so anyone up here can enjoy some early powder.  Drive safely - the roads are slippery and snow is steadily falling.



So no comment on the events I described previously.

I would like to know:

What is your corporate policy on taking public positions on politically divisive issues? Is this something you see wise from a business standpoint or necessary from an ideological standpoint?

What is your policy on allowing employees to engage customers on official Sugarbush posts/threads using personal account on social media, regarding the level of basic respect towards customers? I too have experienced a high level of service face to face with Sugarbush staff. That's not the issue I'm describing, and you're ignoring.

I have skied Sugarbush at least 2 dozen times... which makes me entitled to zilch. However I find it odd that you completely dodged all my legitimate, and specific complaints.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2018)

you wanna be right wing, ski in new hampshire

stay outta Vermont you warmongering racist :flag:


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## WinS (Mar 13, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> So no comment on the events I described previously.
> 
> I would like to know:
> 
> ...



We do not take normally take political stands as a company and do not contribute to any politician.   However, on something like Climate Change which impacts the future of our business, we will express our point of view as will many of our fellow ski resorts. We are part of NSAA's Climate Challenge and a partner of Protect our Winters.  If there is a piece of legislation that might impact our operation, we will also speak up on that either through one of our trade organizations or directly as other do as well.

We do not allow our employees to use their own social media to address Sugarbush business.  I am not sure of the specifics of what you are speaking about, but email me directly at wsmith@sugarbush.com and we can discuss it. And we do not tolerate rudeness to anyone.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2018)

That's all understandable.

You heard my complaint. I find your point of view on climate change to be political [although I realize you do not see it that way] and making a post to that effect on an issue which half the country disagrees seems like asking for a negative response. I saw no reason why a ski resort should weigh in on a Florida nightclub shooting with sudden "support" for LGBT. It seems contrived, calculated, fake, and frankly didn't represent the facts of the situation at hand.

This post was made before the facts came to light about the shooter pledging allegiance to ISIS, which was the point I made, so maybe you should point your finger more accurately before weighing in the next morning when the facts aren't fully available.

I'm not motivated to continue making an issue of it. I will continue to support your neighbors in the foreseeable future, but that may change some day. I appreciate your explanation; my only intention here was to state my opinion in a forum where you read it and you can factor that into your future business decisions.


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## prsboogie (Mar 13, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> That's all understandable.
> 
> You heard my complaint. I find your point of view on climate change to be political [although I realize you do not see it that way] and making a post to that effect on an issue which half the country disagrees seems like asking for a negative response. I saw no reason why a ski resort should weigh in on a Florida nightclub shooting with sudden "support" for LGBT. It seems contrived, calculated, fake, and frankly didn't represent the facts of the situation at hand.
> 
> ...


Can we please move on now! It's nuking out in case no one noticed!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2018)

^ Yes.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2018)

Give it a rest Tuna.  Take it off line if you have such grievances with SB.

You've said your piece. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2018)

DHS you're a little late to this party. I said my piece, Win replied. Didn't know these were ski area specific "praise-only" threads. Go back a few posts.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> DHS you're a little late to this party. I said my piece, Win replied. Didn't know these were ski area specific "praise-only" threads. Go back a few posts.


Didn't say they were

He offered his email address to discuss.  

Take it there. 

 I doubt anyone cares about your Facebook battle from a year ago.  You've made your point plenty enough publicly



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## bdfreetuna (Mar 13, 2018)

Dude this was ended several posts before you weighed in. I made a legitimate complaint on the ski areas thread, Win eventually addressed it. I'm satisfied and have no reason to look at this thread anymore except reply to you.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2018)

There you go.  You got your last word.  Here's the ball

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmck (Mar 13, 2018)

Suffice to say, the skiing was quite fun at Lincoln Peak today.

I'm just gonna throw up some pics and get us back to skiing and riding...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			














Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 13, 2018)

Ski resorts getting preachy about climate change are like cheesecake manufacturers getting preachy about weight loss.


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2018)

Damn...there is some serious drifting of snow going on right now on the summit judging by the snow cam up there! The weekend can't get here quickly enough so I can get back out there.


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## Plowboy (Mar 13, 2018)

Plowboy here, been lurking for the most lately, as the old days of SkiMRV are gone and FB is around my snow reports have not really been needed. Tonights report: pushed off about 10" near the base of ME and got about another 2" and snowing hard!! 
Could someone "Beam" me back to 1981/82/83/84. The last of the Gondola days!! No Social Media!! If you got caught skiing the woods you lost your pass for a week, if you were an employee you got fired. We had to do a twig check before we headed back to the lift to make sure we didn't have any branches hanging from our hat or parkas! Dennis Curren(sp) was the head of ski patrol, he would let a few of us ski Paradise when it was closed, just had to check in after. Beers were 25c for happy hour at the Snuggery, Gallager's had a band every night. The Blue Tooth had Jay Burr and Dave Mellow playing every day for happy hour(the place was rockin)!!!

Oh Damn I just woke up from that dream.........Carry on and have an awesome powder day!!!


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2018)

Plowboy, my first days at Sugarbush were during that period.  I can say that I have actually rode the SB gondola and been to those places before they closed.  That was a good period of my ski life.  Barely anyone skied the woods.  I wish I was at Sugarbush full time back then.  I am sure you had a blast.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2018)

Does anyone think the snowfall totals at MRG vs Lincoln Peak are really as different as being reported or is it more an issue with getting accurate readings due to blowing, drifting, etc?

MRG says 18-22" since the storm started yesterday while SB is reporting 8-15" since the start of the storm.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Does anyone think the snowfall totals at MRG vs Lincoln Peak are really as different as being reported or is it more an issue with getting accurate readings due to blowing, drifting, etc?
> 
> MRG says 18-22" since the storm started yesterday while SB is reporting 8-15" since the start of the storm.



I think the problem is Sugarbush is relying on the snow stakes to often.  Last year the summit stake go wind loaded most every storm, so I believe this year they moved the snows take further into the "thick" woods.  It can't get an accurate reading unless the snow is falling straight down.  Also shouldn't the snows take be at the level of the snow to take an accurate reading.  If it is elevated in the woods with the wind blowing 40+ how do you expect all the snow to stay on the stake.  anyway that is my observation .


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2018)

Yea I don't know what is going on there.  I Bet MRG does have a bit more snow.  Last Friday we skied there on the last storm and there was definitely 4-5 more inches than SB when I skied on Saturday.  I personally think that SB under-reports some times.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 14, 2018)

It's hard to imagine MRG has received 36% more snow for the season than Sugarbush. 133 vs 181. I don't think MRG over reports at all.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> I think the problem is Sugarbush is relying on the snow stakes to often.  Last year the summit stake go wind loaded most every storm, so I believe this year they moved the snows take further into the "thick" woods.  It can't get an accurate reading unless the snow is falling straight down.  Also shouldn't the snows take be at the level of the snow to take an accurate reading.  If it is elevated in the woods with the wind blowing 40+ how do you expect all the snow to stay on the stake.  anyway that is my observation .



Yea...that's my general feeling. I said something somewhat similar earlier this year too maybe back in December when I felt they were under-reporting a bit. I know they aren't relying solely on the snow stakes at this point though and they even have a disclaimer about that under the snow stake cams on the website.

It would be interesting to see Sugarbush report totals at both LP and ME separately instead of just giving LP values.

While I agree with Hawk there can be some differences between MRG and SB (I've seen differences between LP and ME firsthand), I find the current numbers for the season overall a bit tough to see as accurate and think somehow SB is under-reporting this year.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 14, 2018)

Perhaps MRG is over-reporting.Though they usually seem like their reports are real honest when they are bad.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yea...that's my general feeling. I said something somewhat similar earlier this year too maybe back in December when I felt they were under-reporting a bit. I know they aren't relying solely on the snow stakes at this point though and they even have a disclaimer about that under the snow stake cams on the website.
> 
> It would be interesting to see Sugarbush report totals at both LP and ME separately instead of just giving LP values.
> 
> While I agree with Hawk there can be some differences between MRG and SB (I've seen differences between LP and ME firsthand), I find the current numbers for the season overall a bit tough to see as accurate and think somehow SB is under-reporting this year.



I think what's happened is that last year they relied on the summit snow stake which was recording drifted snow and hence over reported, and so now this season, they are over correcting and under reporting the snowfall.  I think if you look at the stats, last season there was an incredible difference between the summit and base elevation snow reports.  That was probably due to the skewed results of the summit snow stake.  Looking at this years numbers, the difference is minimal, probably less than reality. 
Its difficult to accurately measure snow at the summit because of the near constant wind off the ridgeline.  While the snow stake currently is protected from drifting, it is missing much of the wind driven snow.  and since they clearly overreported last season, in reliance on the summit snow stake, this season they arent reporting anything more than the summit snow stake shows, which is probably not accounting for all the snowfall.
No matter, I will personally make the sacrifice and investigate every nook and cranny of snow I can find this weekend.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2018)

Howie's back.  I hope to see you on Saturday dude.  Go rip it up.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2018)

SIKSKIER said:


> Perhaps MRG is over-reporting.Though they usually seem like their reports are real honest when they are bad.



Imho thats not the case.  I've looked at every snow report up and down the green mountain spine all season, and I'm fairly confident that SB is under reporting.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Howie's back.  I hope to see you on Saturday dude.  Go rip it up.



I might just do that.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I think what's happened is that last year they relied on the summit snow stake which was recording drifted snow and hence over reported, and so now this season, they are over correcting and under reporting the snowfall.  I think if you look at the stats, last season there was an incredible difference between the summit and base elevation snow reports.  That was probably due to the skewed results of the summit snow stake.  Looking at this years numbers, the difference is minimal, probably less than reality.
> Its difficult to accurately measure snow at the summit because of the near constant wind off the ridgeline.  While the snow stake currently is protected from drifting, it is missing much of the wind driven snow.  and since they clearly overreported last season, in reliance on the summit snow stake, this season they arent reporting anything more than the summit snow stake shows, which is probably not accounting for all the snowfall.



Last season the difference between summit and base reported snowfall was huge...but I can speak firsthand from being there in early December when many of those huge differences were reported that they were very real. It was really quite stunning last season (particularly early in the year) how elevation sensitive the snow was and how quickly the amounts on the mountain changed as you went down. It definitely was a more significant and noticeable difference than other years for some reason. They may have over-reported a bit, but I also think there was a huge legitimate difference depending on where on the mountain you were.



> No matter, I will personally make the sacrifice and investigate every nook and cranny of snow I can find this weekend.



Haha! Me too! This definitely requires an intense up close and personal investigation!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Last season the difference between summit and base reported snowfall was huge...but I can speak firsthand from being there in early December when many of those huge differences were reported that they were very real. It was really quite stunning last season (particularly early in the year) how elevation sensitive the snow was and how quickly the amounts on the mountain changed as you went down. It definitely was a more significant and noticeable difference than other years for some reason. They may have over-reported a bit, but I also think there was a huge legitimate difference depending on where on the mountain you were.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha! Me too! This definitely requires an intense up close and personal investigation!



Its a tough job, but someone has to do it.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2018)

I see Sugarbush has now updated their snow totals to say 10-23" since the storm started...unless they had 8" at the summit in the past few hours, looks like they are correcting the totals after further investigation of their own! :razz:


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2018)

Check the radar.  It's nuking again.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Check the radar.  It's nuking again.



The videos and pics I've been seeing unofficialsugarbush share on Facebook today have me drooling at my desk at work...Very hard to get work done when I know snow is falling in VT!


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## jimmck (Mar 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> The videos and pics I've been seeing...



Yeah, it was kinda stupid good out there today
	

	
	
		
		

		
			


























Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## WinS (Mar 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I see Sugarbush has now updated their snow totals to say 10-23" since the storm started...unless they had 8" at the summit in the past few hours, looks like they are correcting the totals after further investigation of their own! :razz:



That is correct. Our Snow Stake got "bombed" last night.


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> The videos and pics I've been seeing unofficialsugarbush share on Facebook today have me drooling at my desk at work...Very hard to get work done when I know snow is falling in VT!


HA, Guinness, Larry and Forenza at it again.  Those guys are everywhere all the time. Wish I could have been up but sometimes I have to work.  Oh well.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2018)

Hawk said:


> HA, Guinness, Larry and Forenza at it again.  Those guys are everywhere all the time. Wish I could have been up but sometimes I have to work.  Oh well.



I'll admit, I'm definitely more than a little jealous of them!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'll admit, I'm definitely more than a little jealous of them!


I'm getting very little accomplished at my office.  leaving this afternoon.


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## kingslug (Mar 15, 2018)

Killing me stuck at work until Friday. Storm will be over by then..Have to get the leftovers.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm getting very little accomplished at my office.  leaving this afternoon.



My cousin was originally planning to come up from MD Friday morning to drive up with me from NJ Friday afternoon. Now he bailed due to not wanting to miss his daughter's first HS Lacrosse game. If I had known earlier he wasn't going, I could have taken tomorrow off and gone up tonight after work instead of going up tomorrow afternoon. Too late now though as I already have several meetings tomorrow morning at work. :-(


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm getting very little accomplished at my office.  leaving this afternoon.



Wish I could but i took off Thursday and Friday last week for that storm (which was great).  Will be there bright and early Sat morning.


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## MommaBear (Mar 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> The videos and pics I've been seeing unofficialsugarbush share on Facebook today have me drooling at my desk at work...Very hard to get work done when I know snow is falling in VT!



And now I'm not getting anything done at work (because I felt it necessary to go see what they were posting).  Thanks!


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2018)

MommaBear said:


> And now I'm not getting anything done at work (because I felt it necessary to go see what they were posting).  Thanks!



Hah! Glad I could help! :razz:


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2018)

PS...just ran into one of my co-workers that happened to be in SB last weekend with his family. He said last weekend was the best skiing he's done all year (he normally skis at K, but does 1 or maybe 2 trips to SB a year if he can).


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## Hawk (Mar 15, 2018)

It is still puking snow up there.  Here is the current radar.  Not sure if this will work but here it goes.

https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=CXX&product=NCR&overlay=11101111&loop=yes


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## HowieT2 (Mar 15, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It is still puking snow up there.  Here is the current radar.  Not sure if this will work but here it goes.
> 
> https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=CXX&product=NCR&overlay=11101111&loop=yes



I prefer this but same idea

https://radblast.wunderground.com/c...lat=44.11000061&lon=-72.86000061&label=Warren


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## mikec142 (Mar 15, 2018)

Probably making the drive up (solo) this weekend and have a few questions.  I usually ski with my family.  When my wife is with us we stick to the tamer stuff, but when it's just me or me and my teenagers we will tackle the more serious stuff.  We've pretty much skied marked, inbounds trail at Lincoln Peak.  

So my question is, if I start hiking in off of Paradise on my way to Castlerock and decide to drop in somewhere in the middle, what am I looking at?  I'd be solo, which is really the only thing giving me pause.  I'm a solid skier who takes things cautiously, but I'm not looking to do anything stupid.

Do you basically just ski down and depending on various lines, either reach Bail Out, Castlerock Run, or Lower Paradise?  Or is it possible to find yourself lost or somewhere that I really don't want to be.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 15, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> Probably making the drive up (solo) this weekend and have a few questions.  I usually ski with my family.  When my wife is with us we stick to the tamer stuff, but when it's just me or me and my teenagers we will tackle the more serious stuff.  We've pretty much skied marked, inbounds trail at Lincoln Peak.
> 
> So my question is, if I start hiking in off of Paradise on my way to Castlerock and decide to drop in somewhere in the middle, what am I looking at?  I'd be solo, which is really the only thing giving me pause.  I'm a solid skier who takes things cautiously, but I'm not looking to do anything stupid.
> 
> Do you basically just ski down and depending on various lines, either reach Bail Out, Castlerock Run, or Lower Paradise?  Or is it possible to find yourself lost or somewhere that I really don't want to be.



Pretty dumb idea for a solo trek if you don't know where you will wind up....even if you know where you are going you have crossed the line of "not looking to do anything stupid" by skiing that area alone.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2018)

eh, I mean, its not THAT gnarly. about halfway thru the hike you get to a pretty obvious open clearing, probably with some tracks. that is the church. the church has some large quasi mandatory drops and then spits you out into pretty typical sugarbush tree skiing. I think you wind up on lower paradise or bail out (?). that area is in-bounds on the map, the boundary runs the ridge between heavens gate and castlerock, whereas slide brook is not within the boundary.


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## MommaBear (Mar 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> PS...just ran into one of my co-workers that happened to be in SB last weekend with his family. He said last weekend was the best skiing he's done all year (he normally skis at K, but does 1 or maybe 2 trips to SB a year if he can).



Hoping to get up there this weekend!  Those videos lit a fire under me...lol!


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## WinS (Mar 15, 2018)

Best day of the year


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2018)

WinS said:


> Best day of the year




awesome!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 15, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> eh, I mean, its not THAT gnarly. about halfway thru the hike you get to a pretty obvious open clearing, probably with some tracks. that is the church. the church has some large quasi mandatory drops and then spits you out into pretty typical sugarbush tree skiing. I think you wind up on lower paradise or bail out (?). that area is in-bounds on the map, the boundary runs the ridge between heavens gate and castlerock, whereas slide brook is not within the boundary.



It can be semi gnar if the conditions aren't right. I've only skied that on a great spring corn snow day. Not something I would go for in normal northeast "mid winter" conditions.

Only remember one mandatory drop it's about a 4-5 footer with a semi tricky landing if I remember correctly.

My favorite stuff at Lincoln Peak is between Paradise and church. A bit less intimidating but some nice little chutes.

But as for church I think if it was a nice enough day I'd be willing to ski it I wouldn't be worried about going solo.


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## ducky (Mar 16, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> Probably making the drive up (solo) this weekend and have a few questions.  I usually ski with my family.  When my wife is with us we stick to the tamer stuff, but when it's just me or me and my teenagers we will tackle the more serious stuff.  We've pretty much skied marked, inbounds trail at Lincoln Peak.
> 
> So my question is, if I start hiking in off of Paradise on my way to Castlerock and decide to drop in somewhere in the middle, what am I looking at?  I'd be solo, which is really the only thing giving me pause.  I'm a solid skier who takes things cautiously, but I'm not looking to do anything stupid.
> 
> Do you basically just ski down and depending on various lines, either reach Bail Out, Castlerock Run, or Lower Paradise?  Or is it possible to find yourself lost or somewhere that I really don't want to be.



Mike, Start with some woods off the trails first and get yourself up to speed before "dropping in" off the Long Trail. The snow is deep and not packed in so you may find obstacles and then difficulty getting up after a fall in deep snow. Also be aware of tree wells. It takes a few runs to get used to visualizing the gaps not the trees. To ski the woods fluidly you need to look ahead and not look at the trees. Skiing the Church from a post on this forum is not the best idea and is starts with a 12' jump to a flat followed by a tight gulley and then another 6' jump to traverse. Start slow and work your way up. Most woods between the inbound runs are skiable and every bit as good currently. (I have skied them every day this week and last - Day 102)
My 2¢.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> Probably making the drive up (solo) this weekend and have a few questions.  I usually ski with my family.  When my wife is with us we stick to the tamer stuff, but when it's just me or me and my teenagers we will tackle the more serious stuff.  We've pretty much skied marked, inbounds trail at Lincoln Peak.
> 
> So my question is, if I start hiking in off of Paradise on my way to Castlerock and decide to drop in somewhere in the middle, what am I looking at?  I'd be solo, which is really the only thing giving me pause.  I'm a solid skier who takes things cautiously, but I'm not looking to do anything stupid.
> 
> Do you basically just ski down and depending on various lines, either reach Bail Out, Castlerock Run, or Lower Paradise?  Or is it possible to find yourself lost or somewhere that I really don't want to be.


Mike, Everything on the long trail either runs into Paradise woods, Bear Claw or Bailout.  The church is described above and I think you could take the ladies tee to the left, pick your way down and stay out of trouble.  You will probably see people as I assume with the conditions that people will be everywhere this weekend.  There are all kinds of lines in there.  Some tight, some steep and there are some drops if you wander around.  Personally the only run I would consider alone is the ladies tee at the Church as it is traveled and has a defined path.


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## mikec142 (Mar 16, 2018)

Guys,

Totally appreciate all the advice.  It's very helpful.  I've skied many of the glades off the trails at LP already (and love them).  I think the big thing that I'm not into is having to jump.  The "ladies tee" sounds right up my alley.  Is it safe to assume that when you say Ladies Tee to the left you mean skier's left.  I wouldn't drop in to glades unless I saw a decent amount of tracks already.  Even though I'm sure that untracked powdery glades would be amazing, I'd be more confident if I saw that someone had successfully navigated the area before me.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2018)

Mike there still will be a couple of places with a small drop.  Maybe 4 or 5 feet with all this snow.  But nothing huge. Yes skiers left.  it should be obvious.


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## mikec142 (Mar 16, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Mike there still will be a couple of places with a small drop.  Maybe 4 or 5 feet with all this snow.  But nothing huge. Yes skiers left.  it should be obvious.




Appreciate the info.  Just out of curiosity...I assume that if I hike along the long trail and I don't drop into the middle area (church) I will eventually hit Castlerock, right?


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2018)

Yup, after church you will hit another uphill section and then it will go down hill to Castlerock.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2018)

lol @ ladies tee. apt description. 

MY SNOWBOARD FRIEND DECIDED TO TAKE HIS OWN CAR AND NOW I GET TO SKI MAD RIVER GLEN ON SUNDAY!


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 16, 2018)

ducky said:


> Mike, Start with some woods off the trails first and get yourself up to speed before "dropping in" off the Long Trail. The snow is deep and not packed in so you may find obstacles and then difficulty getting up after a fall in deep snow. Also be aware of tree wells. It takes a few runs to get used to visualizing the gaps not the trees. To ski the woods fluidly you need to look ahead and not look at the trees. Skiing the Church from a post on this forum is not the best idea and is starts with a 12' jump to a flat followed by a tight gulley and then another 6' jump to traverse. Start slow and work your way up. Most woods between the inbound runs are skiable and every bit as good currently. (I have skied them every day this week and last - Day 102)
> My 2¢.



Can attest to that.  Skiing woods around the saddle, landed to forward off a drop, ski popped off.  took me and my group 20 minutes to find it.  really tough to get yourself up in the powder.  Also when I fell, I fell into a group of pine trees.  The friend had to help me get out of the well around the group pines trees.  They pulled me up with their ski poles.  
Don't go along out there.


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## Kleetus (Mar 16, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol @ ladies tee. apt description.
> 
> MY SNOWBOARD FRIEND DECIDED TO TAKE HIS OWN CAR AND NOW I GET TO SKI MAD RIVER GLEN ON SUNDAY!


It was epic today. I've skied it many times over the years, but never with conditions as good as this. 

Sure it was all time earlier this week with all the fresh, but its still amazing now.

Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app


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## HowieT2 (Mar 16, 2018)

I really can’t say I’ve ever seen conditions better than this.  Just awesome out there.

mike-fwiw- I was on the head wall in paradise woods today, and my right leg went into a tree well with my ski on.  Snow was up to my chest.  It’s deep and probably best to ski with a partner.

had a binding break about half way down the top of ripcord this morning.  Skied on one ski down to intersection with lower paradise.  Took a patrol sled down to heavens gate and then skied on one ski down downspout to the base.  That was interesting.  In the market for new skis.


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## Kleetus (Mar 16, 2018)

Very much looking forward to skiing Mt. Ellen tomorrow and maybe Lincoln Peak if slide brook runs and I feel like fighting the crowds on Casterock

Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Kleetus (Mar 17, 2018)

Kleetus said:


> Very much looking forward to skiing Mt. Ellen tomorrow and maybe Lincoln Peak if slide brook runs and I feel like fighting the crowds on Casterock
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app


Can confirm today was epic. 6th or 7th person down Black Diamond today after the summit was closed yesterday with loaded windblown definitely did not suck. Fresh snow in the trees everywhere, great soft bumps at both Ellen and Lincoln. Crowds were a non issue except for Castlerock.

Top day of the season for me no doubt. Maybe best conditions I have skied at Sugarbush ever? I've skied it a lot over the years and even had a few pow days, but never with such great snow everywhere.

Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app


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## tumbler (Mar 17, 2018)

All time conditions and day. Was still able to find deep fresh off the beaten path. What a treat.


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## Orca (Mar 18, 2018)

WinS said:


> And we do not tolerate rudeness to anyone.



Well, I observed a Sugarbush employee in lowest lot at Lincoln peak screaming and being verbally abusive to the driver of a car he was directing to park on Saturday morning sometime around 10a. He was not only rude, but impatient, surly, and insulting. And LOUD! Everyone in the vicinity heard him, and several of us remarked that it reflected poorly on SB. Imagine receiving this as a "good morning!" as you excitedly arrive at the mountain. This is no third-hand story; I heard him with my own ears. And so did many others.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 18, 2018)

Kleetus said:


> It was epic today. I've skied it many times over the years, but never with conditions as good as this.
> 
> Sure it was all time earlier this week with all the fresh, but its still amazing now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app



leftovers today, but it was still so good all across the mountain. super chalky and carveable bumps, and stashes in the woods. skied octopus garden for the first time. two dudes were continuing past paradise on the ridge hike and were kind enough to let me join them. SO TECHNICAL. i loved it. and i'm really glad i didnt do it alone, because it is gnarly as fuck and if shit goes wrong it could go quite wrong

stowe was some of the best conditions ive ever skied there yesterday, woods and trails and everything was choice.


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## Hawk (Mar 19, 2018)

It's hard to fathom exactly how much this last storm cycle turned the icy mess into mid winter conditions until you actually go out into the vast reaches and see it first hand.  I doubted exactly how good it was going up on Friday, but by Saturday I was a believer.  We skied in many places, some of which were reserved for only the biggest of powder years and found gold.  Even on Sunday, we found untracked in places.  People were everywhere though.  I saw the migration to obscure areas more that I have ever seen before.  Fortunately, all of my recon through the years paid off and had a few good runs of purely untracked even on Sunday.  You had to go real deep.  ;-)


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 19, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I really can’t say I’ve ever seen conditions better than this.  Just awesome out there.
> 
> mike-fwiw- I was on the head wall in paradise woods today, and my right leg went into a tree well with my ski on.  Snow was up to my chest.  It’s deep and probably best to ski with a partner.
> 
> had a binding break about half way down the top of ripcord this morning.  Skied on one ski down to intersection with lower paradise.  Took a patrol sled down to heavens gate and then skied on one ski down downspout to the base.  That was interesting.  In the market for new skis.


  Saw you from HG chair skiing on one ski down Ripcord on Friday.  Why did you only get a courtesy ride down to HG base?


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 19, 2018)

Revisiting, just because:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Revisiting, just because:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0



Hah! I completely forgot about that. Hilarious!


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## mikec142 (Mar 19, 2018)

Saturday may have been the best day of skiing I've ever had on the East Coast.  Just epic.  

Did a warm up run on Sleeper Chutes then another on Birch before heading over to Castlerock for the rest of the day.  Amazingly soft bumps everywhere.  Was flying solo so got in a ton of runs.  Favorite may have been Lower Castlerock.  Everyone kept continuing down towards Cotillion and LCR was just soft and powdery all afternoon.  

I really wanted to get over to Heaven's Gate but CR was so good I just couldn't bring myself to do it.  Additionally, heeded the group's advice and didn't pop into the woods past Paradise

I haven't skied Rumble since I was a kid and thus don't remember it that well.  Talked to a bunch of guys on the lift and they said it was skiing about as well as it ever had so I figured I'd give it a try.  My skis are 170cm long.  Didn't remember the trail is about 180cm wide.  LOL.  Made it down and laughed the whole way, but didn't link too many turns.  Castlerock and Middle Earth were much more my speed.

Thanks Sugarbush for an amazing day.


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## mikec142 (Mar 19, 2018)

Orca said:


> Well, I observed a Sugarbush employee in lowest lot at Lincoln peak screaming and being verbally abusive to the driver of a car he was directing to park on Saturday morning sometime around 10a. He was not only rude, but impatient, surly, and insulting. And LOUD! Everyone in the vicinity heard him, and several of us remarked that it reflected poorly on SB. Imagine receiving this as a "good morning!" as you excitedly arrive at the mountain. This is no third-hand story; I heard him with my own ears. And so did many others.



I really hate to continue this, but I want to make a couple of points:

1.  If Win or SB management witnessed this (or were told about it) do you think they wouldn't address it?  

2.  Not to justify rude behavior, but people have bad days all the time.  Maybe his wife divorced him that AM.  Maybe his car broke down.  Maybe someone ran over his foot.  Maybe the driver of the car repeatedly ignored his instructions.  Who knows.  It's not justified, but it happens.

3.  Do you think for a second that this is reflective of all SB employees?  Do you think for a second that this type of behavior couldn't happen elsewhere in any other business or at any other ski resort?

4.  The complaints on this thread about one off issues just show me that some people will focus on the negative no matter what.  Saturday was the best skiing I've ever had at Sugarbush and rather than mention one thing about that, you focus on a parking lot attendant.  

5.  For every negative issue, there are dozens of positive ones.  I mentioned three great ones up-thread.  It's life.  Stuff is going to happen.  Both good and bad.  If you focus on the bad stuff, life will be a bummer.


I've already commented about the wonderful skiing.  But I would be remiss if I didn't mention the nice conversation I had with Judy who I chatted with while waiting for the jitney.   Both of my jitney drivers picked me up and dropped me off within yards of my car and said they were sorry for not being able to get me any closer (LOL).  The liftie at Castlerock was from Holmdel, NJ (about 25 miles from me) and we had a pleasant conversation.  My RFID card has been having some issues and before I drove up, I spoke with Pavel in the ticket office.  He fixed the issue, stayed with me on the phone to make sure it worked, and emailed me later in the day to tell me another piece of info that I forgot to ask about.  This doesn't even include the great conversations I had on the lift and in the liftlines. While I prefer to ski with friends and family, it doesn't always work like that so I love that I'm able to ski as a single every now and then and still enjoy the experience.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2018)

I've seen parking attendants yell at customers all over the country. its a frustrating job and people repeatedly try to ignore you and park where they want. its one area where I somewhat expect staff to be a bit loud, direct, and gruff if they need to be

witnessed a bizarre parking incident at stowe Saturday. parking attendant asked guy in car next to me to pull up. but there were people walking in front of his car, and the car in front of him was a pickup truck with a big liftgate that could have conceivably fallen on this guys hood if opened carelessly. he had also already turned the car off and stepped out when the attendant asked if he'd move forward. he declined, and said "it's ok, I'm good", and the attendant thought very little of it and moved on without any argument. however, the guy parked in front of me was not having it. to the guy next to me he says "what makes you special? she kindly asked you to pull forward. other guy "I'm good, I didn't want to get too close to the liftgate, and there's plenty of room behind me." etc etc. this escalates to them calling each other "fucking assholes". they simmer down, and my friends and I are walking away towards the lodge, when one of them makes another snide comment, resulting in the guy parked next to me charging over to the guy parked in front of me, chest fully puffed out and ready to fight. we kept walking to the lodge, but it was bizarre. 

both cars had Vermont plates. pretty aggro behaviour at 7:15 AM before an epic stowe day.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 19, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Saw you from HG chair skiing on one ski down Ripcord on Friday.  Why did you only get a courtesy ride down to HG base?



it was easier for me to ski it, than for the patroller to pull me in the sled.  the section down to the lift was too bumped up and powdery to make much progress on one ski. downspout was groomed so I could handle that.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> witnessed a bizarre parking incident at stowe Saturday. parking attendant asked guy in car next to me to pull up. but there were people walking in front of his car, and the car in front of him was a pickup truck with a big liftgate that could have conceivably fallen on this guys hood if opened carelessly. he had also already turned the car off and stepped out when the attendant asked if he'd move forward. he declined, and said "it's ok, I'm good", and the attendant thought very little of it and moved on without any argument. however, the guy parked in front of me was not having it. to the guy next to me he says "what makes you special? she kindly asked you to pull forward. other guy "I'm good, I didn't want to get too close to the liftgate, and there's plenty of room behind me." etc etc.



As a pickup owner, I absolutely hate how close the attendants try to park cars behind pickups. On more than one occasion I've basically had my tailgate laying on top of the hood of the car behind me as I try to load my skis at the end of the day. If possible I try to park in a row that doesn't have cars doubled up to avoid this, but that sometimes means not parking where the attendants want me to park. I sort of feel bad whenever I wave at the attendant to signal that I'm "ignoring" them and going to the other end of the row/lot though.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 19, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Hah! I completely forgot about that. Hilarious!



that's my wifey who did that.

fwiw-seems the lift issues from several years ago have resolved.  curious as to what did the trick.  or combination of things.

also, have never seen mt ellen so full as it was saturday.  all lots full and cars parked on the side of the access road.  still, no lift lines to speak of.  heard lincoln peak was pretty good too.  guessing a lot of people were spending time in the woods.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> that's my wifey who did that.
> 
> fwiw-seems the lift issues from several years ago have resolved.  curious as to what did the trick.  or combination of things.
> 
> also, have never seen mt ellen so full as it was saturday.  all lots full and cars parked on the side of the access road.  still, no lift lines to speak of.  heard lincoln peak was pretty good too.  guessing a lot of people were spending time in the woods.



Nice job by your wife Howie!

As for lift issues, yes, I'd say all the money they put into rebuilding/upgrading/replacing lifts sure has seemed to pay off (*knock on wood*).

I was at ME on Saturday and was actually surprised to see cars parked on the access road as I left. The mountain itself seemed pretty empty. I think I mentioned it in another thread, but at one point I thought NRX had gone on windhold as there was no one on it as I crossed under it. Got to the base of the NRX and it was loading, there was just no one around to load!

In contrast last weekend ME was packed on Saturday with actual lift lines (~5 minutes or so on average) yet when I left early afternoon the lots were just about almost full and no one was on the access road yet. My guess is more people were in the lodges/bars this Saturday due to the temps/wind.


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2018)

I’m seriously considering going up Saturday. Didn’t get to ski half the mountain when I was up in January due to conditions. Worth the 4 hour drive up?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2018)

weird question. yes, of course it is. they just a got a ton of snow and there will be no freeze thaw cycle or rain between now and then. there is even an outside chance for snow. this very well may be the last great weekend of the year, since temps will start getting >32 after march 25, and we run the risk for liquid precip. i'll be at killington and magic this weekend, sugarbush and pico the next, whiteface after that.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I’m seriously considering going up Saturday. Didn’t get to ski half the mountain when I was up in January due to conditions. Worth the 4 hour drive up?



My vote is yes. Conditions are excellent right now and with continued cold weather in the forecast I don't see that changing substantially by the weekend.  Pretty much anything you want to ski is in play right now.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 19, 2018)

cdskier said:


> My vote is yes. Conditions are excellent right now and with continued cold weather in the forecast I don't see that changing substantially by the weekend.  Pretty much anything you want to ski is in play right now.


 +1


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 19, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I really hate to continue this, but I want to make a couple of points:
> 
> 1.  If Win or SB management witnessed this (or were told about it) do you think they wouldn't address it?
> 
> ...



+1 I agree 100%.  Plus it was a fantastic weekend.  Best Ive see Sugarbush ski.  The access road shuttle drivers are great, in particular Gilbert.  The guy is extremely friendly, always asking how your day was, where'd you ski etc.  I've never had issues with any of the employees at Sugarbush.


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2018)

Yeah I don’t need much convincing, just wanted to make sure there wasn’t something I wasn’t aware of. 


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> +1 I agree 100%.  Plus it was a fantastic weekend.  Best Ive see Sugarbush ski.



I think I still have to rate the 2007 St Patty's day weekend as my personal all-time best/favorite. Back then I only planned one trip a year to Sugarbush and that weekend happened to be the one I planned. That Saturday and Sunday were the first time I ever skied Castlerock and also probably the first time I skied 12+ inches of fresh powder so that probably makes it pretty memorable in general.

Now if I had been at Sugarbush this past Wednesday/Thursday during/right after the storm, I might have a different perspective. :smile:


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## rocks860 (Mar 19, 2018)

I was there last year the week of st pattys day and that was by far the best conditions I’ve ever skied at sugarbush, and it was practically empty midweek


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 19, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I think I still have to rate the 2007 St Patty's day weekend as my personal all-time best/favorite. Back then I only planned one trip a year to Sugarbush and that weekend happened to be the one I planned. That Saturday and Sunday were the first time I ever skied Castlerock and also probably the first time I skied 12+ inches of fresh powder so that probably makes it pretty memorable in general.
> 
> Now if I had been at Sugarbush this past Wednesday/Thursday during/right after the storm, I might have a different perspective. :smile:



This was my fresh track, skiing off the long trail on Friday.  I don't now how it gets better than this.


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## JimG. (Mar 19, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I've seen parking attendants yell at customers all over the country. its a frustrating job and people repeatedly try to ignore you and park where they want. its one area where I somewhat expect staff to be a bit loud, direct, and gruff if they need to be
> 
> witnessed a bizarre parking incident at stowe Saturday. parking attendant asked guy in car next to me to pull up. but there were people walking in front of his car, and the car in front of him was a pickup truck with a big liftgate that could have conceivably fallen on this guys hood if opened carelessly. he had also already turned the car off and stepped out when the attendant asked if he'd move forward. he declined, and said "it's ok, I'm good", and the attendant thought very little of it and moved on without any argument. however, the guy parked in front of me was not having it. to the guy next to me he says "what makes you special? she kindly asked you to pull forward. other guy "I'm good, I didn't want to get too close to the liftgate, and there's plenty of room behind me." etc etc. this escalates to them calling each other "fucking assholes". they simmer down, and my friends and I are walking away towards the lodge, when one of them makes another snide comment, resulting in the guy parked next to me charging over to the guy parked in front of me, chest fully puffed out and ready to fight. we kept walking to the lodge, but it was bizarre.
> 
> both cars had Vermont plates. pretty aggro behaviour at 7:15 AM before an epic stowe day.



Sounds like Hunter.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 20, 2018)

Skiing on Monday was as good as it gets minus the deep, cobalt blue skies  soft sunny groomers major grip !!today should be a repeat!!uncrowded slopes no kids  pure bliss  day 3882


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## Orca (Mar 20, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I really hate to continue this, but I want to make a couple of points:
> 
> 1.  If Win or SB management witnessed this (or were told about it) do you think they wouldn't address it?
> 
> ...



Pointing out that there exist instances of SB employees interacting poorly with customers in no way implies that such instances are the norm. Indeed, most interactions are pleasant and helpful.

Your assertion that I was focused on this incident and didn't quickly look past it is presumptuous and, frankly, ridiculous. Several folks on this forum could benefit from reading words for what they actually say, rather than reading into words things (e.g. ascribing motives, extensions, and states of mind) that are not said.


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## AbominableSnowman (Mar 21, 2018)

So, apart from the entitled elite not having their auditory senses soothed by chamber music, their tactile senses soothed by a shower of rose petals, and their olfactory senses soothed by wafting fruit-scented unicorn farts as they alighted from their carriages in the lower parking lots, were there any actual skiing- and snowboarding-related issues or events from Sugarbush to report this weekend? 

Word among a crowd skiing at Stowe was that the winds were quite gusty at Mt Ellen, and that there is some lift there that has had an inordinate amount of problems (North Road/Ridge Express?).   Did all the lifts run well?  Were the lines reasonable?

Though it has been great at Stowe, some of us were thinking of heading over to Mt Ellen to ski this weekend, for a change of pace.   The images that someone posted from there last Sunday looked great - hopefully it still has good coverage....


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## rocks860 (Mar 21, 2018)

Question for you guys. Does anyone know how you reload the rfid card if you’re buying a ticket online in advance? Do you have to do it through the sugarbush website? I got a card back in January, just wasn’t sure if I could buy an advance ticket on liftopia or something like that


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2018)

AbominableSnowman said:


> So, apart from the entitled elite not having their auditory senses soothed by chamber music, their tactile senses soothed by a shower of rose petals, and their olfactory senses soothed by wafting fruit-scented unicorn farts as they alighted from their carriages in the lower parking lots, were there any actual skiing- and snowboarding-related issues or events from Sugarbush to report this weekend?
> 
> Word among a crowd skiing at Stowe was that the winds were quite gusty at Mt Ellen, and that there is some lift there that has had an inordinate amount of problems (North Road/Ridge Express?).   Did all the lifts run well?  Were the lines reasonable?
> 
> Though it has been great at Stowe, some of us were thinking of heading over to Mt Ellen to ski this weekend, for a change of pace.   The images that someone posted from there last Sunday looked great - hopefully it still has good coverage....



I was at Mt Ellen on Saturday. Lifts ran just fine. North Ridge Express didn't stop once while I was on it (which was a decent part of the morning). Summit ran fine until it went on wind hold later in the morning (and it was quite windy at the time it went on hold). After summit went on hold I noticed a lift ops guy on a snowmobile sitting halfway up the Cliffs trail watching the GMX lift (presumably keeping an eye on how the wind was impacting that one). It never went on hold though. Lift lines were virtually non-existent even though the parking lot was full. North Ridge was practically ski on. GMX had maybe a 2 or 3 minute line at one point when I was down there.

Coverage was excellent. Some of the best coverage I've seen in a while. The one exception was there was somehow still an exposed/open water bar on the Lower FIS runout. Not a big deal...just surprised me a bit with all the snow we had.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2018)

A few pics from Mt Ellen on Saturday:





And for fun, one from Lincoln Peak on Sunday:


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 21, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I was at Mt Ellen on Saturday. Lifts ran just fine. North Ridge Express didn't stop once while I was on it (which was a decent part of the morning)..........Lift lines were virtually non-existent even though the parking lot was full. North Ridge was practically ski on.


  I was also there on Saturday & completely agree.  I didn't see when summit went on wind hold, but considering the gusting going on-- not surprising.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 21, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> I was also there on Saturday & completely agree.  I didn't see when summit went on wind hold, but considering the gusting going on-- not surprising.



also skied there saturday.  Summit was running in the morning allowing me to do 4 laps on black diamond and upper fis.  best conditions I have ever encountered on black diamond.  The north ridge was ski on the whole day.  lapped exterminator woods.  excellent day all around.


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## rocks860 (Mar 21, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Question for you guys. Does anyone know how you reload the rfid card if you’re buying a ticket online in advance? Do you have to do it through the sugarbush website? I got a card back in January, just wasn’t sure if I could buy an advance ticket on liftopia or something like that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Anybody know?


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Anybody know?



I know doing it through the Sugarbush website would work as long as your card is linked to your online account. No idea how something like liftopia would work with that though...


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 21, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> Anybody know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  From the Liftopia website:  

Pick-up Instructions
[FONT=&quot]Redeem your Liftopia voucher for Sugarbush lift tickets at the ticket window in The Farmhouse at Lincoln Peak or Mt. Ellen.
If you do not already have a SugarXpress Card, an additional one-time $5 SugarXpress Card charge will be collected when a ticket is picked up at the ticket window.
[/FONT]


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## Hawk (Mar 21, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> From the Liftopia website:
> 
> Pick-up Instructions
> [FONT="]Redeem your Liftopia voucher for Sugarbush lift tickets at the ticket window in The Farmhouse at Lincoln Peak or Mt. Ellen.
> ...


I would do it through the sugarbush website and then you can go directly to the lift.  If you use liftopia it sounds like you have to go to the window.  Be forewarned the sugarbush ticket window has been a 30 to 40 minute line if you don't get there by 8:00 or 8:15.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I would do it through the sugarbush website and then you can go directly to the lift.  If you use liftopia it sounds like you have to go to the window.  Be forewarned the sugarbush ticket window has been a 30 to 40 minute line if you don't get there by 8:00 or 8:15.



And unless someone has a coupon or credit at Liftopia, the prices seem to be almost exactly the same as via Sugarbush's website. In fact Sugarbush is even 1 cent cheaper on some days! Convenience factor alone of not having to go to the ticket window would be the deciding factor for me though.


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## rocks860 (Mar 21, 2018)

cdskier said:


> And unless someone has a coupon or credit at Liftopia, the prices seem to be almost exactly the same as via Sugarbush's website. In fact Sugarbush is even 1 cent cheaper on some days! Convenience factor alone of not having to go to the ticket window would be the deciding factor for me though.



Yeah I looked earlier and it seemed to be the exact same price on the sugarbush website. I’ll probably just buy it on there when I get home


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## WinS (Mar 21, 2018)

Purchasing directly will always be the best price. If you have a SugarXpres card you can reload via the Web or the APP. You just need to input the IP Code on the back of the card. If you keep the card you can also use next season for passes and tickets and go directly to the lift. Earlier lines we people picking up for first time - especially Quad Packs.


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## WinS (Mar 21, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I really hate to continue this, but I want to make a couple of points:
> 
> 1.  If Win or SB management witnessed this (or were told about it) do you think they wouldn't address it?
> 
> ...



Was not aware of this but will look into it. Our attendants are really good so this is surprising. We did have one guest a few weeks who drove in fast into the exit and the security guy got pretty frosted.


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## WinS (Mar 21, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> that's my wifey who did that.
> 
> fwiw-seems the lift issues from several years ago have resolved.  curious as to what did the trick.  or combination of things.
> 
> also, have never seen mt ellen so full as it was saturday.  all lots full and cars parked on the side of the access road.  still, no lift lines to speak of.  heard lincoln peak was pretty good too.  guessing a lot of people were spending time in the woods.



A lot of preventative summer maintenance and a good team of mechanics who care about their work.


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## rocks860 (Mar 21, 2018)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



WinS said:


> Purchasing directly will always be the best price. If you have a SugarXpres card you can reload via the Web or the APP. You just need to input the IP Code on the back of the card. If you keep the card you can also use next season for passes and tickets and go directly to the lift. Earlier lines we people picking up for first time - especially Quad Packs.



Just did it on the website, was pretty simple once I figured out what email address the card I got from my quad pack was linked to


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## Hawk (Mar 23, 2018)

Not liking the models for the end of next week.  We are approaching April now as I guess it is expected.


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## tumbler (Mar 24, 2018)

Snow report saying firm conditions, huh? It’s never gotten above freezing at the summit since last weekend? Only down low?


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## bumpcrasher (Mar 24, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Snow report saying firm conditions, huh? It’s never gotten above freezing at the summit since last weekend? Only down low?



Agreed.  I thought the snow report was a bit pessimistic.   All North-facing slopes did very well (Heaven's Gate certainly the best and certain parts off Super B).  The North Linx/Gate House side was full on spring as the sun is SO strong right now.    I assume they firmed up overnight.  Still plenty of soft snow out there.


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## ducky (Mar 24, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Snow report saying firm conditions, huh? It’s never gotten above freezing at the summit since last weekend? Only down low?



It was in the forties all over on Thursday. High woods snow changed dramatically and became heavier.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 24, 2018)

Mt Ellen was great today - real "packed powder" on the groomers and everything above the North Ridge chair is still winter.  Did multiple laps of FIS and dry, soft bumps on Exterminator, Bravo, Tumbler and Hammerhead.  Blue sky all day !


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 24, 2018)

I was worried by the snow report yesterday,  but the snow was great.  Firm, but fair, not icy.


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## rocks860 (Mar 24, 2018)

Gatehouse area was very soft by the time I was done today so that is definitely going to refreeze but everything I skied upper mount at Lincoln and mount Ellen was still pretty chalky


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 24, 2018)

Corn harvest begins shortly gentlemen!


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## rocks860 (Mar 24, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Corn harvest begins shortly gentlemen!



Everything off of gatehouse was corn by this afternoon. Sleeper was a blast


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## teleo (Mar 24, 2018)

Gotta love a day with soft spring bumps on sunrise and soft powder bumps on north facing slopes.


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## rocks860 (Mar 25, 2018)

Some pictures from yesterday 





Top of paradise





Paradise





Semi tough





View from the top


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## mikec142 (Mar 25, 2018)

So jealous...pix look amazing.  Planning on being there on 4/1 and 4/2.  Hoping for the best.


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## Hawk (Mar 26, 2018)

This weekend was pretty good.  No lines to really speak of, mostly sunny and every trail open.  Contrary to some reports, there was some good soft, chalky and powdery conditions to be found.  It was all about the sun aspect.  The temps from mid mountain up did not reach above freezing all last week especially on the north facing slopes.  Places like Egans, Lews, Spills, the Right side of Ripchord, and anything up off of upper organgrinder or Jester were that great chalky snow.  On the other hand you had places like North Linx, Castlerock Run, Middle Earth and anything that faces the sun, that you really wanted to wait until after lunch to ski the good corn.  Yup corn season is starting.  Looks like maybe a little snow this week and then the warmth moves in.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2018)

I skied Friday-Sunday. Friday was really nice and the mountain was empty. Steins on Friday was excellent. They really had the forecast quite wrong on Saturday and it was nice to see the sun out almost all day.

My goal is to ski Friday-Saturday this weekend so I can be home for Easter on Sunday...but we'll see what happens with the weather. Still hearing after the warmup this week that we go back to more winter like weather in early April. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I could go for a little more winter before we get too springy!


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## tumbler (Mar 26, 2018)

It was a fun weekend.  I think it will be the last one of it feeling like winter and skiing anything you want, but for late March I cannot complain.  Lots of bumps skied and some stiff legs this morning.


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## smac75 (Mar 26, 2018)

Deal alert: Bluestone customer appreciation week coming up - 1/2 gift cards next Tue-Sat. We stocked up and used all season long!


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 27, 2018)

Surprised to hear the Bush had corn snow.I was at Cannon right through yesterday and the whole mt was still winter snow and they are almost exactly the same northerly latitude and only 50 miles apart.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 27, 2018)

Cannon & Sugarbush are farther apart than 50 miles.


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## Tin Woodsman (Mar 27, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Cannon & Sugarbush are farther apart than 50 miles.


It's 61 miles as a the crow flies, and at the same latitude.  It's a distinction w/o a difference.

The big difference is that the OP referred to terrain in the Castelrock, North Lynx and Gate House pods, all of which face South to some degree.  With the late March sun angle, that turns to corn pretty quickly when it's sunny.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2018)

Tin Woodsman said:


> It's 61 miles as a the crow flies, and at the same latitude.  It's a distinction w/o a difference.
> 
> The big difference is that the OP referred to terrain in the Castelrock, North Lynx and Gate House pods, all of which face South to some degree.  With the late March sun angle, that turns to corn pretty quickly when it's sunny.



was actually kinda crazy how bad bear mountain and the natural woods off of sassafras skied this past Saturday compared to the more northerly aspects (anarchy-Julio-Juanita). night and day. mid winter between superstar and k-1. full spring on bear with rotten snow.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 27, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> was actually kinda crazy how bad bear mountain and the natural woods off of sassafras skied this past Saturday compared to the more northerly aspects (anarchy-Julio-Juanita). night and day. mid winter between superstar and k-1. full spring on bear with rotten snow.


Loon was odd on Sunday.  The sun came out and things started to soften, but then it seemed like almost instantly, everything that was still shaded turned chalky and was hardening back up.  Very odd and quickly changing conditions.


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## ducky (Mar 29, 2018)

Mt Ellen awesome and soft everywhere. Yellow or black wax absolutely necessary, don't scrape. FIS, BD, Bravo, Exterm, Inverness, yes, ...woods not so much and snow a bit tired. Get it while you can.


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 29, 2018)

Skied MEllen from 8 to 10 this morning. Probably bailed too early, summit was socked in and I hate flat light...and then there was the work thing dragging me off the hill.  Many have told me the rest of the day skied great. Still great coverage. Ditto on the previous wax comment. High speed groomers were a lot of fun. Bumps good with very little litter in the troughs. I'm back tomorrow after the immature snow event in the morning.


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## Hawk (Mar 30, 2018)

I am here at Sugarbush this morning.  It poured overnight and continues now.  Looking at the radar it looks like rain most of the day with breaks.  I plan to go out on the next break and then ski until I am soaked and then go do some errands. Snow should be soft but it looks like some or most of the natural terrain took a big hit.  Hopefully it is OK as far as coverage.


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## flakeydog (Mar 30, 2018)

Sorry to see Castlerock and other natural trails go.  Can anyone over at North verify Black Diamond, Exterminator, and Bravo conditions.  They all had pretty good cover, especially Black Diamond and were even open prior to the recent snows.  I am hoping this is for preservation perhaps?  though with North closing Sunday I would really love to have those be on the farewell tour.

On another note, noticed up on Castlerock last week that the "Castlerock"and "Lower Castlerock" signs were missing and/or appeared to be painted over.  Once at the Castlerock/Cotillion intersection and again down at the Lower Castlerock/Bailout intersection.  What's up with that?


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## mikec142 (Mar 30, 2018)

Really hoping to be able to enjoy Castlerock this Sunday and Monday or at least be able to hike over...


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 30, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Cannon & Sugarbush are farther apart than 50 miles.



58 miles.The weather doesn't use roads.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2018)

Rain stopped at 11 yesterday and skiing was really good but sticky as suggested on here.  I think they closed all the natural trails yesterday to save them for the weekend. The snow report indicates that this morning.  It is 29 at the condo this morning so firm and fast to start on groomers is what we have.  I think I will head up to North Links first before lunch for the corn.


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## shadyjay (Mar 31, 2018)

Very firm and fast this morning (8am).  Softened up a couple hours later and the harvest began.  Great coverage seen on Black Diamond.  Not sure about Exterm or Bravo but they were all "back in play" today.  Lots of people out enjoying the day.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Rain stopped at 11 yesterday and skiing was really good but sticky as suggested on here.  I think they closed all the natural trails yesterday to save them for the weekend. The snow report indicates that this morning.  It is 29 at the condo this morning so firm and fast to start on groomers is what we have.  I think I will head up to North Links first before lunch for the corn.



I went out Friday at 11 as well after the rain stopped. Most of the open trails did ski pretty well (although some fresh wax on my skis certainly would have helped me). Pretty substantial snow loss though compared to last weekend. It was also fun losing power for 3 hours Friday evening due to someone driving off the road into the pole by the basketball court just past the stop sign. I had just gotten out of the shower and was about to relax and watch a movie!



shadyjay said:


> Very firm and fast this morning (8am).  Softened up a couple hours later and the harvest began.  Great coverage seen on Black Diamond.  Not sure about Exterm or Bravo but they were all "back in play" today.  Lots of people out enjoying the day.



Firm was an understatement. Unfortunately due to family Easter obligations I had to leave early afternoon today to head back to NJ so had no choice but to ski early today. As of around noon when I left Mt Ellen the softening had made it most of the way up Cruiser. Elbow was also softening nicely too even earlier on. Never had a chance to ski any of the bump runs though as they still seemed pretty firm when I had to leave. I bet this afternoon softened up pretty nicely though with the beautiful full sun we had today.


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## Boxtop Willie (Apr 2, 2018)

Have had the pleasure of skiing the last 3 weekends at Sugarbush...one of the best March's ever, a real treat. Here's an observation I hope someone can explain. I don't think I saw any instructors out free skiing. I've seen patrol, obviously. I've seen the hosts in their green jackets but never an instructor in their blue ones. Given the conditions I would have expected to see at least some. I realize late season the instructor ranks can thin out and the great snow could increase the number of lessons,  but to see no one? Seems odd. Are they out incognito?


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## Hawk (Apr 2, 2018)

The instructors I know do not free ski with the company jacket.  I am not sure if that is a policy but I know they purposely do this.


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## Hawk (Apr 2, 2018)

The party in the plaza on Saturday afternoon was awesome.  (2) bands including the Detonators, 4 bars open and really good times.  I am so glad they are finally nailing this.  I bet there was 1000 people hanging out there from 3 to 5. They should strongly advertise this every spring.  It will draw people.
Also did anybody see that barefoot guy dancing and doing the flips on the concrete deck?   Wow.  I thought he was going to kill himself.


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## tumbler (Apr 2, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The party in the plaza on Saturday afternoon was awesome.  (2) bands including the Detonators, 4 bars open and really good times.  I am so glad they are finally nailing this.  I bet there was 1000 people hanging out there from 3 to 5. They should strongly advertise this every spring.  It will draw people.
> Also did anybody see that barefoot guy dancing and doing the flips on the concrete deck?   Wow.  I thought he was going to kill himself.



The party scene was great, and I agree nice that they are getting it right with that area.  Did see the dude doing backflips, as it got chillier he put socks on...


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## WWF-VT (Apr 2, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The party in the plaza on Saturday afternoon was awesome.  (2) bands including the Detonators, 4 bars open and really good times.  I am so glad they are finally nailing this.  I bet there was 1000 people hanging out there from 3 to 5. They should strongly advertise this every spring.  It will draw people.



All the cool kids were on the deck in the sun at Mt Ellen on Saturday afternoon


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## Hawk (Apr 2, 2018)

That's awesome also.  Good for the Ellen crew.


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## WinS (Apr 2, 2018)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Have had the pleasure of skiing the last 3 weekends at Sugarbush...one of the best March's ever, a real treat. Here's an observation I hope someone can explain. I don't think I saw any instructors out free skiing. I've seen patrol, obviously. I've seen the hosts in their green jackets but never an instructor in their blue ones. Given the conditions I would have expected to see at least some. I realize late season the instructor ranks can thin out and the great snow could increase the number of lessons,  but to see no one? Seems odd. Are they out incognito?



As most Ski areas do when someone is on free time, they will not be in uniform.  This is for Worker's Compensation reasons.
The staff does thin out this time of year but we have actually been quite busy in Ski & Ride with both adult and kids lessons and we are still seeing first timers which is terrific.


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## mtsnow123 (Apr 2, 2018)

I remember a few years ago being at the top of the Green Mountain Express at about 4:15 PM with about 30 other freestyle riders waiting for the lift to officially stop spinning. Once the lift stopped, everyone laid down on their chest or side (snowboard vs ski), a countdown commences, and when it hit zero, it was a race to the bottom of the Riemmergrasse terrain park. You could take any run you wanted and involved a lot of dodging other racers. Some people chose to take mogul runs and use the moguls as jumps/landings, or use groomed runs for straight tucking.

It was one of the coolest end of season events I have ever been part of. 

Anyone else see this on Ellen closing day in year's past?


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## Boxtop Willie (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks for the response Win. Seems like insurance issues getting in the way of a good marketing opportunity...the aspirational nature of seeing a really good skiing instructor (one hopes) gracefully coming down a trail. At the area I teach at the Director is always after us to get out an ski in our parkas to drum up business. And thanks for a great weekend. The courtyard at Lincoln Peak and the Deck at Mt Ellen were great places to be.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 3, 2018)

mtsnow123 said:


> I remember a few years ago being at the top of the Green Mountain Express at about 4:15 PM with about 30 other freestyle riders waiting for the lift to officially stop spinning. Once the lift stopped, everyone laid down on their chest or side (snowboard vs ski), a countdown commences, and when it hit zero, it was a race to the bottom of the Riemmergrasse terrain park. You could take any run you wanted and involved a lot of dodging other racers. Some people chose to take mogul runs and use the moguls as jumps/landings, or use groomed runs for straight tucking.
> 
> It was one of the coolest end of season events I have ever been part of.
> 
> Anyone else see this on Ellen closing day in year's past?


  Kinda sounds like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe3HBqFhTU


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## Smellytele (Apr 3, 2018)

Chinese downhill!


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## WJenness (Apr 3, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Chinese downhill!



It is zee only vay.


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## Hawk (Apr 3, 2018)

"What in the Fluk is Chinese Downhill"


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## mikec142 (Apr 3, 2018)

Skied at Sugarbush on Sunday and Monday with my 16 year old daughter.  Had a great time!  We went over the Castlerock around 11:30am on Sunday.  The liftie said it was "crispy" but he wasn't sure based on the forecast whether or not it would soften up.  We went up anyway and skied Castlerock Run.  There is so much snow, but crispy was the right word.  Definitely a challenge.  We took Slide Brook over to ME for a couple of runs.  We had never taken the Slide Brook lift...either having plenty of fun where we were or it wasn't running.  Great views.  Also fun to ski ME on it's last day.  Monday was a perfect spring day and we followed the sun.  Started out on Hot Shot and followed it up with Sleeper.  Then up to Birch for a half dozen high speed giant slalom runs.  Moved on over to Heaven's Gate for a couple of runs on Ripcord and then called it a day as we had to get back to Burlington to pick up my Mom who came with us this time and then head back to NJ.  

With Spring sports kicking into high gear for my kids, this was most likely the end to our 17/18 season.  Definitely want to say thanks to Win and the Sugarbush crew for making it a great season.


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## djd66 (Apr 3, 2018)

I had Sunny Side up, I had Sunny side down,...I had Sunny all zee vay around!

Hot Dog - my all time favorite ski movie!!


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## cdskier (Apr 5, 2018)

Does anyone know why the Sugarbush app and website don't necessarily show the same info? For example on the Conditions section of the app there's an "Important Information" section at the top that currently says "Village and North Lynx lifts are closed for the day due to power outages. CR and HG are closed due to wind damage." On the website from a browser though this "Important information" doesn't show up in the Snow Report. If you click on the "Lift Status" tab it will show those lifts as closed, but you don't get the details that you get in the app on why.


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## Hawk (Apr 5, 2018)

The storm last night was serious.  There are trees down and power out all over the valley.  I would imagine that they are scrambling today to get power on and figure it out so the reports may be lagging.


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## cdskier (Apr 5, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The storm last night was serious.  There are trees down and power out all over the valley.  I would imagine that they are scrambling today to get power on and figure it out so the reports may be lagging.



Oh I've noticed this in the past, just never said anything. It isn't isolated to this case. Anything in that "Important Information" section of the app never shows on the snow report on the website unless I'm not looking in the right place. I don't know if this is some sort of special field only displayed on the app or what.

And yes, lots of damage in the valley. Per the e-mails I got from GMP, I had no power at my condo from 9PM last night until almost 6am this morning. And then it went out again at 9am and has been out since (unless it never really came back on between 6am and 9am today). Last numbers I saw showed a good portion of the valley still with no power.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2018)

We used to do Chinese Downhills at Shawnee during Thursday night ski club, because kids do really stupid things*.



*I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a ton of fun though.


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## TSQURD (Apr 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> And yes, lots of damage in the valley. Per the e-mails I got from GMP, I had no power at my condo from 9PM last night until almost 6am this morning. And then it went out again at 9am and has been out since (unless it never really came back on between 6am and 9am today). Last numbers I saw showed a good portion of the valley still with no power.



To my understanding, there is no power up village dr., and spotty elseware. Talked to Dino earlier today, Reks lost power last night @9 but got it back around 6 this morning. We lost power (off village) at 9 also but ours hasn’t been back on yet. GMP did switch us to ‘power on’ at one point, so we had to report the outage again.  There’s a fair amount of damage around. Lots of trees/branches down, roof damage, etc. They were running a small generator at the top of gate house.  According to the lifties Bravo suffered some sort of damage also, but ran all day outside of an hour or so mid day.


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## tumbler (Apr 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Does anyone know why the Sugarbush app and website don't necessarily show the same info? For example on the Conditions section of the app there's an "Important Information" section at the top that currently says "Village and North Lynx lifts are closed for the day due to power outages. CR and HG are closed due to wind damage." On the website from a browser though this "Important information" doesn't show up in the Snow Report. If you click on the "Lift Status" tab it will show those lifts as closed, but you don't get the details that you get in the app on why.



I think they update the app more than the website.


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## WinS (Apr 9, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I think they update the app more than the website.



The APP is an automatic feed from our dispatcher so it will be the most current.


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## cdskier (Apr 9, 2018)

WinS said:


> The APP is an automatic feed from our dispatcher so it will be the most current.



Any way to get that "Important Information" section that shows on the top of the Conditions page in the app to also show on the website on the snow report? I still find myself looking at the website far more than the app even from my iPhone (I prefer the way the trails are sorted on the website vs the way they're sorted on the app on the trail report).


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2018)

My god.  Another crappy weather weekend.  Cold R*#n, freezing R*#n, WTF!!!!   When are we gong to get sunny and 50's and 60's????  I may do something that I have never done.  I might stay down south and go for a long bike road ride.  Its going to be 60's and sunny down here.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 11, 2018)

Hawk said:


> My god.  Another crappy weather weekend.  Cold R*#n, freezing R*#n, WTF!!!!   When are we gong to get sunny and 50's and 60's????  I may do something that I have never done.  I might stay down south and go for a long bike road ride.  Its going to be 60's and sunny down here.



Does look like it's gonna suck for weather this weekend,  meanwhile today it's sunny and "natural snow corduroy on Castlerock Run and Troll Rd"


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2018)

Perhaps but temps are going to stay in the lower 30's and cloud up this afternoon.  This is not my idea of a good spring set up.  At the first sign of warmer temps I am blowing off work to do some good spring skiing.


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## slatham (Apr 11, 2018)

Hawk said:


> My god.  Another crappy weather weekend.  Cold R*#n, freezing R*#n, WTF!!!!   When are we gong to get sunny and 50's and 60's????  I may do something that I have never done.  I might stay down south and go for a long bike road ride.  Its going to be 60's and sunny down here.



Go south to SOVT- last weekend 6-8" powder, this weekend (Saturday at least) party sunny and warm enough (though you have to watch timing of front sinking south).


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## mikec142 (Apr 11, 2018)

I'd actually love to take a couple of runs on some Castlerock corduroy.  How often do they groom trails on Castlerock?  Can't be more than a couple of times per year.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I'd actually love to take a couple of runs on some Castlerock corduroy.  How often do they groom trails on Castlerock?  Can't be more than a couple of times per year.



This is the first time all year that CR was groomed that I can recall. I was just thinking to myself the other day that this could be a year where it never gets groomed at all.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 11, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> I'd actually love to take a couple of runs on some Castlerock corduroy.  How often do they groom trails on Castlerock?  Can't be more than a couple of times per year.



Maybe once a year or every other year.  I skied a groomed Middle Earth a few years ago and it was a fun blue square rather than a black diamond trail when groomed.


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## mikec142 (Apr 11, 2018)

When the snow is good, Castlerock Run is my favorite trail on the mountain but when the snow is bad, I stay away.  Rock hard bumps don't do it for me.  My question would be, without grooming, how do those rock hard moguls mellow out in the winter?


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 11, 2018)

so vt and catskills should be fine Saturday. northern vt looks like a mess.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 11, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> When the snow is good, Castlerock Run is my favorite trail on the mountain but when the snow is bad, I stay away.  Rock hard bumps don't do it for me.  My question would be, without grooming, how do those rock hard moguls mellow out in the winter?



They dont.  love when they groom CR.  My wife will even ski it after its groomed.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2018)

I just got around to reading the latest Win's Word posted last Friday. I couldn't help but laugh as I saw this:


> Winter is still here but Spring skiing is coming back and next weekend we might see temperatures in the 60s!



Just goes to show how wrong the long range forecast has been so often this winter.


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## flakeydog (Apr 11, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> When the snow is good, Castlerock Run is my favorite trail on the mountain but when the snow is bad, I stay away.  Rock hard bumps don't do it for me.  My question would be, without grooming, how do those rock hard moguls mellow out in the winter?



Well if it is winter (a good winter), we get new snow to fill them in.  In spring, a bit of sublimation in spring knocks them down a bit along with skier traffic on corn snow and slush.  Otherwise we just grin and bear it and let our toe nails grow back over the summer...


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> so vt and catskills should be fine Saturday. northern vt looks like a mess.



I wouldn't quite call it a mess...but certainly far from ideal and nowhere near spring.



			
				NWS Burlington said:
			
		

> Saturday...boundary remains draped across our central cwa with warm air south and cold air north. Timing of individual pieces of energy and placement of best forcing with boundary is nearly impossible. Expect a cloudy/cold day with periods of light mixed precip north and mainly dry south.


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## ducky (Apr 11, 2018)

Nice sunny bluebird groomer day today.


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## WJenness (Apr 12, 2018)

Was up yesterday.

My first time skiing Lincoln Peak (I had skied Mt. Ellen once about 6/7 years ago)... Had a really good time, even though I was only able to get a few hours in.

Looking forward to putting some extended time in up there next year.

The day sold me on doing the Ikon Base pass for next year.

-w


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## tumbler (Apr 12, 2018)

Havent seen an operations update but would think Gatehouse side would close after the weekend and run Bravo, HG and CR.


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## shadyjay (Apr 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Havent seen an operations update but would think Gatehouse side would close after the weekend and run Bravo, HG and CR.



From this afternoon's snow report (4/12):

"The Gate House, North Lynx and Castlerock areas will be closing Sunday afternoon for the season, so get your fun runs in these spots soon."

CR runout is experiencing snow shortage with some walking required.  The connection curve right by the lift was very narrow and thin yesterday, when I got up there to sample a flattened CR Run.


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## teleo (Apr 12, 2018)

With the weather this weekend, was thinking they should shut those lifts this weekend and see if there is snow next weekend. 

Figured the rare cat on CR might have pushed some snow to the run out.  Patrol can only do so much.  But I thank them for thier effort every time I seem em making a ribbon.


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## Hawk (Apr 13, 2018)

shadyjay said:


> From this afternoon's snow report (4/12):
> 
> "The Gate House, North Lynx and Castlerock areas will be closing Sunday afternoon for the season, so get your fun runs in these spots soon."
> 
> CR runout is experiencing snow shortage with some walking required.  The connection curve right by the lift was very narrow and thin yesterday, when I got up there to sample a flattened CR Run.


If the castlerock runout has no snow and requires taking your skis off then I am going to just take my skis off at the bottom of the lift and walk up to lower downspout.  Thanks for the intel.


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## mikec142 (Apr 13, 2018)

Hawk,

I could be wrong, but I read ShadyJay's post to say that the end of the castlerock connection (from north lynx to castlerock) is pretty bare.  That section was already kinda thin when I was last there on 4/2.  He could be talking about castlerock runout, but a lot of that area sits in the shade.  Who knows.  Either way, have fun.


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## cdskier (Apr 13, 2018)

Fwiw, Castlerock was excellent today. Instead of taking the runout though I used bailout on my last run. Patrol was shoveling snow onto the end of the runout earlier today. The last turn before the lift is single track hand shoveled by patrol as well (big thanks to them for keeping a path open!)

Very unlikely cr would make it to next weekend though even if they tried to keep it closed to preserve it this weekend. Bottom is going fast.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Hawk (Apr 13, 2018)

mikec142 said:


> Hawk,
> 
> I could be wrong, but I read ShadyJay's post to say that the end of the castlerock connection (from north lynx to castlerock) is pretty bare.  That section was already kinda thin when I was last there on 4/2.  He could be talking about castlerock runout, but a lot of that area sits in the shade.  Who knows.  Either way, have fun.


Actually I think your right.  But I still hate the long run out to Gondolier.


----------



## WinS (Apr 13, 2018)

WJenness said:


> Was up yesterday.
> 
> My first time skiing Lincoln Peak (I had skied Mt. Ellen once about 6/7 years ago)... Had a really good time, even though I was only able to get a few hours in.
> 
> ...


Great to hear that.  Looking forward to seeing you next year.


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## WinS (Apr 13, 2018)

The weather channel has upgraded their snow forecast for the next couple of days.  They are much more optimistic than our forecaster so we will see.  Really nice and creamy today.


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## CoolMike (Apr 13, 2018)

WinS said:


> The weather channel has upgraded their snow forecast for the next couple of days.  They are much more optimistic than our forecaster so we will see.  Really nice and creamy today.



Do you guys have a meteorologist on staff for that or do you use someone who has other jobs but also aggregates and compiles forecasts from other sources?

Just curious and thanks!


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## WinS (Apr 13, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> Do you guys have a meteorologist on staff for that or do you use someone who has other jobs but also aggregates and compiles forecasts from other sources?
> 
> Just curious and thanks!



 No. We and a number of other ski areas use a service out of NH.  Each day at 6:45am we get a very  detailed forecast about wind, temperature ranges,  humidity by base, mid mountain and summit.  It is a multi-day forecast but we focus on that day to help us determine our grooming and snowmaking plan for that evening.  We often call for an update around noon. Precipitation forecasts are also given.  Today is was calling for rain, mixed possibly some freezing rain and then 3-5 inches of snow tomorrow.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2018)

Today was surprisingly nice. That 1" of sleet/wintry mix actually skied really well. It was very smooth and effortless to carve in. Felt like skiing on sugar (or what I would imagine it would be to ski like on sugar).

Friday was still the best day of the weekend though. Glad I took off from work and made it up for that day.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 15, 2018)

Anything was better than Saturday


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Anything was better than Saturday



Agreed...I did 6 runs and not even sure why I did that many. Even "fresh tracks" on Jester after it was re-groomed and HG just opened Saturday morning was teeth-chattering.


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## Hawk (Apr 16, 2018)

No spring for us I guess. 2 maybe 3 weeks left so time is getting short.  I hope the weather turns but it is looking in the 30's for next weekend.  Maybe we can squeeze out a few more degrees and make it at least decent.


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## WinS (Apr 16, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Today was surprisingly nice. That 1" of sleet/wintry mix actually skied really well. It was very smooth and effortless to carve in. Felt like skiing on sugar (or what I would imagine it would be to ski like on sugar).
> 
> Friday was still the best day of the weekend though. Glad I took off from work and made it up for that day.



Glad you had a   "book end" experience.  I too thought Friday was terrific.  Saturday was one of the worst days of the year and got worse as the day progressed.  That quick drop in temperatures in the early morning set  everything up really hard.  We debated what the grooming plan should be Saturday night because of the variety of  forecasts we were receiving but went with our guy who said it was likely we would get a couple of inches of sleet and snow.  Thus, we groomed just about everything including Stein's, Ripcord and Organgrinder, and they came out great.  It was a pleasant surprise to see how nice the skiing was on Sunday, and I personally lapped Stein's several times.  Monday is a different story with winds forecasted to be 75 mph at the summit with rain coming in.  We will likely only have Bravo turning and not sure how long that will last.  The week is looking wintery but there is hope for this weekend.  Stayed tuned.  We are all ready for some spring skiing and riding and a plaza party.


----------



## CoolMike (Apr 16, 2018)

WinS said:


> No. We and a number of other ski areas use a service out of NH.  Each day at 6:45am we get a very  detailed forecast about wind, temperature ranges,  humidity by base, mid mountain and summit.  It is a multi-day forecast but we focus on that day to help us determine our grooming and snowmaking plan for that evening.  We often call for an update around noon. Precipitation forecasts are also given.  Today is was calling for rain, mixed possibly some freezing rain and then 3-5 inches of snow tomorrow.



Interesting and thanks for the info.

Hopefully get some true spring skiing conditions soon.  Kitchen sink storms are a pain.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 16, 2018)

so glad I didn't bet on snow and go to vt this weekend. Saturday in the catskills was absolutely gorgeous.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Apr 16, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> Kitchen sink storms are a pain.



Triggered.

In the future please use the term "base building winter precipitation event".


----------



## cdskier (Apr 16, 2018)

WinS said:


> The week is looking wintery but there is hope for this weekend.  Stayed tuned.  We are all ready for some spring skiing and riding and a plaza party.



I'm officially ready for spring skiing now. Friday was a nice preview and would love some warmer sunny spring days these last 3 weekends of the season. Hoping for some T-Shirt skiing weather at some point! (and when that happens I hope I remember to take my pass out of my jacket and put it somewhere else lol)


----------



## cdskier (Apr 16, 2018)

General question since I know some people here are from MA. Next week I may have a need to go to MA for work (Westborough/Framingham area). Instead of driving 5 hours back to NJ Sunday night only to drive up from NJ to MA Monday morning, I'm thinking it would be more efficient to just stay in VT Sunday night and drive directly to MA Monday morning.

Any suggestions on a route from the MRV to the Framingham/Westborough area?


----------



## ThinkSnow (Apr 16, 2018)

Rt 89S to 93S to 495S


----------



## Hawk (Apr 16, 2018)

It is the typical Rt 89s to Rt 93s to Rt 3s.  It depends on exactly were you are going from there.  If you are actually going to Westborough then you want to get off at Rt 495s but if it is closer to Framingham you may want to stay of Rt 3s and take Rt 95s to Rt 90 west(Mass Pike).


----------



## cdskier (Apr 16, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Rt 89S to 93S to 495S



Thanks.



Hawk said:


> It is the typical Rt 89s to Rt 93s to Rt 3s.  It depends on exactly were you are going from there.  If you are actually going to Westborough then you want to get off at Rt 495s but if it is closer to Framingham you may want to stay of Rt 3s and take Rt 95s to Rt 90 west(Mass Pike).



Thanks. I knew I could count on some of you on this forum. Best way to get to I89? How's Bethel Mountain Road this time of year? I tend to see quite a few MA plates turn that way in Rochester as I'm driving home on 100.

We have offices in both Westborough and Framingham. Most likely I'll go to Westborough on Monday since I have more colleagues at our site there and Monday is more up to me where I want to go.


----------



## prsboogie (Apr 16, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Rt 89S to 93S to 495S


This∆∆ avoid 95 at all costs, Monday will be a mess

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hawk (Apr 16, 2018)

With the Mud in Lincoln Gap we go Bethel Gap this time of year mostly.  Until the conditions get better.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 16, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> This∆∆ avoid 95 at all costs, Monday will be a mess
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk



He has a point.  if you are going to be there in the morning before say 10am you want to avoid 95s.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 16, 2018)

There is no reason to take Rt 95 & the Pike when heading to FHM or WBO, when they're about 5 miles apart and both accessible by Rt. 9 E/W.


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2018)

Hawk said:


> He has a point.  if you are going to be there in the morning before say 10am you want to avoid 95s.



Thanks. I'll probably leave the MRV around 8 or 9am. I'm in no rush. Sounds like if I go to Westborough directly I'll avoid 95s anyway.


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## chuckstah (Apr 16, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> There is no reason to take Rt 95 & the Pike when heading to FHM or WBO, when they're about 5 miles apart and both accessible by Rt. 9 E/W.



I lived in Framingham for many years and it is much shorter, something like 15 miles, to take 95 to the Pike.  You won't however save any time, and may lose time during rush hours as has been stated.  I found the quickest way back was down 100 through Bethel to 89 during mud season.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 16, 2018)

Bethel Mtn road is probably your best bet.  Lincoln Gap is west of Warren, so that wouldn't get you to Rt. 89.  I would not suggest Roxbury Gap as it is likely way to muddy right now.


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Bethel Mtn road is probably your best bet.  Lincoln Gap is west of Warren, so that wouldn't get you to Rt. 89.  I would not suggest Roxbury Gap as it is likely way to muddy right now.



I just assumed Hawk meant Roxbury when he said Lincoln. 

Looks like Bethel Mtn Rd it is.


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## Hawk (Apr 16, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Bethel Mtn road is probably your best bet.  Lincoln Gap is west of Warren, so that wouldn't get you to Rt. 89.  I would not suggest Roxbury Gap as it is likely way to muddy right now.



I meant Roxbury Gap and not Lincoln gap.  And yes I sent him over bethel gap.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 17, 2018)

so I was primed to come up this weekend but the weather forecast is not so appealing.  wtf?  highs in the 40's will not be spring skiing.

re:roxbury gap.  I had my nephew meet us up for xmas/new years and I gave him explicit driving directions which he of course ignored and followed the navigation which sent him via roxbury in the snow.  needless to say his first trip to the mrv was something of an adventure.


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 17, 2018)

*fingers crossed for  a sunny weekend*



HowieT2 said:


> so I was primed to come up this weekend but the weather forecast is not so appealing.  wtf?  highs in the 40's will not be spring skiing.
> 
> re:roxbury gap.  I had my nephew meet us up for xmas/new years and I gave him explicit driving directions which he of course ignored and followed the navigation which sent him via roxbury in the snow.  needless to say his first trip to the mrv was something of an adventure.



skiing has been unreal so far this week even with the sleet rain snow. surfaces have been from sugar firm velvet to crispycorn when the sun comes out it will be epic  just sayin!!!everyone who loves to ski should be here  also  coverage is wall to wall with some good woods


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## slatham (Apr 17, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> so I was primed to come up this weekend but the weather forecast is not so appealing.  wtf?  highs in the 40's will not be spring skiing.
> 
> re:roxbury gap.  I had my nephew meet us up for xmas/new years and I gave him explicit driving directions which he of course ignored and followed the navigation which sent him via roxbury in the snow.  needless to say his first trip to the mrv was something of an adventure.



Let me see, it's gonna snow all week and then be sunny and in the 40's? Probably better then most of the non-March weekends this year! Wish I could get up for it.


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## cdskier (Apr 17, 2018)

slatham said:


> Let me see, it's gonna snow all week and then be sunny and in the 40's? Probably better then most of the non-March weekends this year! Wish I could get up for it.



Sounds pretty good to me...I'll be there and am looking forward to it.


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## bumpcrasher (Apr 18, 2018)

Have to give the Bush a lot of credit as most mountains have pulled the plug and the surrounding competition is not looking as good.      

Jay shutdown Tramside and the Bonnie.  Only skiing off The Jet.    
Killington looks like they shutdown everything other than the K1 and Superstar Quad.  
Stowe closed on April 15?!?  Not so EPIC!!!  

We have A LOT of terrain open and reopening Castlerock is AWESOME!!  Throw in reopening Twist, Moonshine, Mall...pretty sweet considering it is mainly passholders and people using up their Quad packs.  Very much appreciated!!


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## HowieT2 (Apr 18, 2018)

looking better.  

Current snow depth atop Mt Mansfield
is 90 inches, thinking by Friday we have a good chance to hit
100 inches again, which should provide excellent late season
skiing and riding conditions for people like myself looking to
earn their turns.


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## WinS (Apr 18, 2018)

A couple of comments. 

I have taken every possible way here and usually prefer the Roxbury Gap.  But this time of year i take Exit 3 on 89 and the Behtel Gap since it is paved. It takes me 7-10 minutes longer than when Roxbury is in good shape.

If we knew there would be more people interested in skiing and riding we would be almost 100% open but  most seem to be into other things. We will be running Bravo, Heaven’s Gate and Castlerock this weekend. CR will be 100% and we might groom a trail or two up there given the depth.  We will have over 40 trails open and the woods are still skiing well. Looks like some snow Thursday and Friday and then some warmer temps and more sun, so I am hoping for some more springlike conditions. We are planning on the umbrella bar and a plaza band on Saturday. Sunday Looks sunny and warmer. I would love to stay open midweek. Can you find a few hundred friends?  But, we will reopen next weekend and the next, so please let everyone know.

Oh! Our annual  Stein’s challenge is on Saturday - the last winter mountain event. Time to think about our June Brew Grass Festival.


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## cdskier (Apr 18, 2018)

WinS said:


> A couple of comments.
> 
> I have taken every possible way here and usually prefer the Roxbury Gap.  But this time of year i take Exit 3 on 89 and the Behtel Gap since it is paved. It takes me 7-10 minutes longer than when Roxbury is in good shape.
> 
> ...



Pretty crazy that trails that were closed less than a week ago have reopened at this point in mid-April and that we're still getting new snow. Looking forward to the next 3 weekends! As much as the new snow is cool, I'm ready for spring skiing and am hoping for sun and warmer temps.

As for Brew Grass, I am excited that my sister and her husband are finally able to fit it into their schedule and coming up from Maryland for it this year.


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## Hawk (Apr 19, 2018)

Good news Win.  I am looking forward to it.  Looks like another Cinco de Mayo / Kentucky Derby combo party once again.  Lets hope for warm temps and sunny skies!


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## ducky (Apr 19, 2018)

Up at CR yesterday. John Atkinson's photo. Conditions are excellent top to bottom.


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## smac75 (Apr 19, 2018)

wins said:


> a couple of comments.
> 
> I have taken every possible way here and usually prefer the roxbury gap.  But this time of year i take exit 3 on 89 and the behtel gap since it is paved. It takes me 7-10 minutes longer than when roxbury is in good shape.
> 
> ...



^best.owner.ever


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## mikec142 (Apr 19, 2018)

smac75 said:


> ^best.owner.ever



Completely agree.


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## mikec142 (Apr 19, 2018)

Win,

Quick question...what are your thoughts on making quadpacks available earlier in the off season?  If I recall correctly, they are usually available in the month of November and I typically buy 2-3 of them at one time.  If you were to make them available from July-November, I might buy one of them per month (total of 5-6) as it would make it easier from a budgeting and cash flow standpoint.  I'm not sure how this would affect Sugarbush though...


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 20, 2018)

Funny you should ask, as the SB website states this:



Limit: two Quad Packs per person.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Funny you should ask, as the SB website states this:
> 
> 
> 
> Limit: two Quad Packs per person.



I thought I remembered there being a limit, but was too lazy to look it up. He could still be using multiple family names though (2 for him, 2 for wife, etc).


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## mikec142 (Apr 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I thought I remembered there being a limit, but was too lazy to look it up. He could still be using multiple family names though (2 for him, 2 for wife, etc).



Absolutely...could always add my wife.  More thinking from a cash flow standpoint (I'm pretty regimented about budgeting).  I like the idea of four monthly payments of $250 more than one lump sum payment of $1000.  I'm wondering if Sugarbush could generate more quadpack sales if the time frame was longer.  Either way it's all good.  Just wondering if my idea is a win/win situation.


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## Plowboy (Apr 20, 2018)

ducky said:


> Many Quad Pack tickets for sale recently on Front Porch Forum, generally in the $40-45 range, if you need them


I have 6 I did not use for sale for $40


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 20, 2018)

I'm heading up for a day. Lez be real.. Paradise/chutes + Castlerock @ 100% is the best offering on the table right now.

Paid 1/2 price and will make sure to pack food/drink 

Let's be clear... Jay Peak had lift issues early and Killington "contracted" early. Stowe closed a month early for whatever reason. Smuggs could have stayed rocking but decided to stick to the plan. Bolton and MRG are on a tight budget and can't fudge the initial plan too much. There is an opening for Sugarbush here, and they took advantage of it this spring.


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## sull1102 (Apr 20, 2018)

Hey guys, thinking about going up midweek next week, wondering if you guys have any idea what will be open lift wise at the point? 

Sent from my Z983 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Hey guys, thinking about going up midweek next week, wondering if you guys have any idea what will be open lift wise at the point?



Sugarbush will be weekends only after this weekend.


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## skimagic (Apr 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Hey guys, thinking about going up midweek next week, wondering if you guys have any idea what will be open lift wise at the point?
> 
> Sent from my Z983 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sugar Bush is no opening midweek after April 22.
And Killington will only have superstar pod, keep driving to Jay.


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 20, 2018)

skimagic said:


> Sugar Bush is no opening midweek after April 22.
> And Killington will only have superstar pod, keep driving to Jay.



Jay will only have Jet Triple open... which is better IMO than Superstar pod, at least initially... but the extra drive negates that. Also I think Killington will keep running K-1 past April 22. If I have bad intel on that LMK!


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## sull1102 (Apr 20, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Jay will only have Jet Triple open... which is better IMO than Superstar pod, at least initially... but the extra drive negates that. Also I think Killington will keep running K-1 past April 22. If I have bad intel on that LMK!


Far as I know k1 is done after Sunday.

Sent from my Z983 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## WinS (Apr 20, 2018)

I hope everyone enjoyed the last day of winter today.   Hopefully, the sun will be appearing early tomorrow and soften things up. Sunday is looking very sunny and warmer.  Our groomers plan to go a bit wild tonight.  We will hit the normal trails as well as winching Ripcord.  We meant to do that last night but the winch cat broke down and needed to me repaired today.  It is good to go thanks to our crack vehicle maintenance team.  Since we are leaving Stein's and Upper Organgrinder alone, the groomers are heading over to Castlerock to get Castlerock Run, Middle Earth and Troll Road.  When the sun hits those they should be really sweet tomorrow and Sunday. Umbrella bar and band in the plaza tomorrow.


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## WinS (Apr 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I thought I remembered there being a limit, but was too lazy to look it up. He could still be using multiple family names though (2 for him, 2 for wife, etc).



A number of families do just this.  Mike's idea is worth thinking about although almost all are sold in the final 48 hours.  People seem to like deadlines.  The same is true for our season passes.


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## Boxtop Willie (Apr 20, 2018)

I'm a Sugarbush lifer. It's April 20th and they're planning on grooming Middle Earth tonight? Seriously? When, if ever, has that happened this late in the year? Absolutely fantastic. I can't get there fast enough. Love the debate on this board on where to ski this weekend. Win's post was the answer. And finally some Spring skiing...thought I was going to die last Saturday. Everybody enjoy. And... "Thanks Win".


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2018)

Boxtop Willie said:


> I'm a Sugarbush lifer. It's April 20th and they're planning on grooming Middle Earth tonight? Seriously? When, if ever, has that happened this late in the year? Absolutely fantastic. I can't get there fast enough. Love the debate on this board on where to ski this weekend. Win's post was the answer. And finally some Spring skiing...thought I was going to die last Saturday. Everybody enjoy. And... "Thanks Win".



I'll second this. Should be a great weekend!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## teleo (Apr 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'll second this. Should be a great weekend!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Just got here.  36 degrees with light snow flurries.  Looks like winter in sugarbush village on april 20th[emoji16] I like it.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 20, 2018)

ducky said:


> Many Quad Pack tickets for sale recently on Front Porch Forum, generally in the $40-45 range, if you need them.
> https://frontporchforum.com/areas/179/current-issue



How do people resell quad pack tickets? I thought the original purchaser had to be present to redeem them for that specific day.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 20, 2018)

Heading up in the morning for the weekend. Stoked!


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## 180 (Apr 20, 2018)

Skiing was off the chart today. fresh in the woods all day. hiked the ridge, spillsville was sweet.  Lower elevations tougher conditions.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 20, 2018)

Groomed Middle Earth should be fun in the morning


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## teleo (Apr 20, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Groomed Middle Earth should be fun in the morning


+1. As much as I love ME bumps, the rare groomed ME is so unique.  I think of it as an advanced jester.

Gee, why didn't they groom rumble[emoji28][emoji6][emoji44]


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## WinS (Apr 21, 2018)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> How do people resell quad pack tickets? I thought the original purchaser had to be present to redeem them for that specific day.



They do. Some people picked up multiple days. Just don’t resell them in front of the ticket window please. Be careful some have sold used cards and got a surprise when they got to the gate.


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## WinS (Apr 21, 2018)

teleo said:


> +1. As much as I love ME bumps, the rare groomed ME is so unique.  I think of it as an advanced jester.
> 
> Gee, why didn't they groom rumble[emoji28][emoji6][emoji44]



Someone actually asked me once if we could groom it.  And speaking of grooming our winch cat still had an issue but we are going to go at Ripcord again tonight and also Moonshine and Lower Twist.  Can't go back to Castlerock though but it should still be nice tomorrow which looks like a mirror image of today but maybe warmer


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## skimagic (Apr 21, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Far as I know k1 is done after Sunday.
> 
> Sent from my Z983 using AlpineZone mobile app



Killington announced this afternoon that K-1 will run next Fri Sat Sun. Big crowd today, The skiers have spoken.


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## cdskier (Apr 21, 2018)

Today was pretty damn awesome. Would have loved to lap cr all day but couldn't deal with that line. Did a couple runs there early and then went back and did a couple more in the afternoon. Fun to see how much the trails changed in those few hours.

This may be some of the best late season coverage in a long time. Just imagine if we also had normal snowfall and didn't have all those thaws this season! 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 22, 2018)

>>>  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/140601-Sugarbush-4-22-2018


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## HowieT2 (Apr 23, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Today was pretty damn awesome. Would have loved to lap cr all day but couldn't deal with that line. Did a couple runs there early and then went back and did a couple more in the afternoon. Fun to see how much the trails changed in those few hours.
> 
> This may be some of the best late season coverage in a long time. Just imagine if we also had normal snowfall and didn't have all those thaws this season!
> 
> ...



awesome weekend.  conditions were spectacular.  paradise woods had great coverage. paradise was paradise.  glad I didnt listen to myself and stay home.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 23, 2018)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Middle Earth and Rumble on Apr 21. Probably my best runs of the season there. And Middle Earth groomed (and again on 4/21) will long stand as one of the most unique ski runs I've ever taken. 
Everything about this weekend was stellar. Imo sugarbush made the right call on everything they chose to groom and not groom. That combined with temps that were comfortable but actually not super warm, and yet enough sun to soften everything by 10:00. How often do you get spring snow surfaces with frosted trees and mid Winter scenery on the top third of the mountain. I can't stop raving ppl at the office are like, you did what this weekend?? [emoji16][emoji16]

<Edit> oh and, I think a few mentioned crowds but I didn't think it was bad at all. I never waited more than ~2 mins in any line except for castlerock, which is kind of a given. I guess maybe the lodge and bar may have gotten busy but that's fine by me if it means fewer ppl on the mountain [emoji16]
I was surprised and sorry to read about the shitshows at kton and Cat.


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## WinS (Apr 23, 2018)

Thank you everyone who came out this past weekend.  Our team gave a lot of thought on what to groom and what entertainment and F&B   options to make for the best experience and Mother Nature kicked in too. Lili and I had out best two days of the season.  I have to head off to a family weekend event and then the NSAA annual convention, but we look forward to seeing a lot of you on  Sunday, May 6th, our final day.  Hopefully, the weather will cooperate and we can have a terrific Derby De Mayo day on the 5th.  Whomever left the nice note under my windshield wiper Thank You very much.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 23, 2018)

teleo said:


> +1. As much as I love ME bumps, the rare groomed ME is so unique.  I think of it as an advanced jester.



Someone that I rode the CR lift with this weekend referred to a groomed ME the exact same way.

I still can't stop thinking about how awesome this weekend was. Weird driving past the mountain as I was leaving this morning though and seeing everything still bumped up.


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## teleo (Apr 23, 2018)

Was a perfect spring weekend.  Took my fastest run ever on ME sat am.  Pretty much skied natural snow trails all day sat including woods. Awesome for april 21st.

Cd it wasn't me on CR chair.  I was never single.

Win, can't wait to see what your team comes up with for derby demayo.  You've been nailing the courtyard apres scene this spring.


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## Skrn (Apr 24, 2018)

My family is considering coming to Sugarbush this coming weekend. My daughter is only comfortable skiing green and easy blue trails. Are we expecting some green and easy blue trails to be open? Thanks!


----------



## WinS (Apr 25, 2018)

Skrn said:


> My family is considering coming to Sugarbush this coming weekend. My daughter is only comfortable skiing green and easy blue trails. Are we expecting some green and easy blue trails to be open? Thanks!


There will not be any green trails open and a bit early to know what blues will be opened and groomed. With showers over the next few days we are likely to lose snow. We hope that trails like Jester and Lower Snowball will hold up. Spring Fling is intermediate but a bit sleeper that the other I mentioned. Our Friday snow report will indicate what will be opened and groomed.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Apr 26, 2018)

https://www.valleyreporter.com/stories/12511-putting-maple-beer-on-the-map


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## cdskier (Apr 26, 2018)

Skrn said:


> My family is considering coming to Sugarbush this coming weekend. My daughter is only comfortable skiing green and easy blue trails. Are we expecting some green and easy blue trails to be open? Thanks!





WinS said:


> There will not be any green trails open and a bit early to know what blues will be opened and groomed. With showers over the next few days we are likely to lose snow. We hope that trails like Jester and Lower Snowball will hold up. Spring Fling is intermediate but a bit sleeper that the other I mentioned. Our Friday snow report will indicate what will be opened and groomed.



To add to what Win said, also keep in mind that spring conditions on a blue trail can be quite different than what you would find mid-winter. Soft spring snow bumps up very quickly and someone comfortable skiing blue trails in the winter may not feel the same way in the spring.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> >>>  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/140601-Sugarbush-4-22-2018



Added some of my photos from the weekend to that post...


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Added some of my photos from the weekend to that post...



I'm going to be opening that thread up from time to time over the summer... guaranteed... thanks for the additions


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## watkin (Apr 27, 2018)

WinS said:


> Our Friday snow report will indicate what will be opened and groomed.



Hi Win,

What lifts are going to be open this weekend on Lincoln side?   I checked the snow report from today and it lists SuperBravo and Heaven's gate open at 9, and then says all others open at 10.  Will Castle Rock be running?   And what about Gate House?  Some riders in my party are hoping to hit some park!

Thanks!


----------



## tumbler (Apr 27, 2018)

watkin said:


> Hi Win,
> 
> What lifts are going to be open this weekend on Lincoln side?   I checked the snow report from today and it lists SuperBravo and Heaven's gate open at 9, and then says all others open at 10.  Will Castle Rock be running?   And what about Gate House?  Some riders in my party are hoping to hit some park!
> 
> Thanks!



For the weekends of April 28-29 and May 5-6, Super Bravo loads 9 AM - 5 PM, Heaven's Gate turns 9 AM - 4 PM and Valley House spins 10 AM - 4 PM.


----------



## watkin (Apr 27, 2018)

Cool thanks... looks like they updated the snow report.  No park, but at least we know now.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 27, 2018)

watkin said:


> Cool thanks... looks like they updated the snow report.  No park, but at least we know now.



They've had a park setup on Racer's Edge for the past couple weeks. The park section of the snow report lists it as open with 14 features.


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## mtsnow123 (Apr 27, 2018)

The park was great last weekend. Decent size step down jump, a few technical rails, a sweet mini-pipe with jibs on the lips and some fun hips. Good work Sugarbush parks!


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## ducky (Apr 29, 2018)

Moose - be careful on 100 south through Granville/Hancock. Many are driving via Bethel with the Roxbury Gap closed. My brother-in-law hit a large moose Friday night (8:15) doing 50mph just south of Granville on the town line with Hancock; his car was totaled but he and his wife ok. The moose crushed the windshield and roof and rolled over the car and off the back. I drove down from Waitsfield to pick them up and met the game warden who had seen another in the pond in the Granville Gulf on his way down. Somehow the moose was able to walk off and the warden went after it to see if it needed to be euthanized.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2018)

Ive only seen a Moose 4 times in New England.  Two of those times was in Granville

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## machski (Apr 29, 2018)

I've seen Moose plenty of times.  Driving, I have seen Moose twice on Route 5 between Fryeburg and Bethel, ME and twice on Route 3 between 93 and 302 in NH.  A bunch of times on other roads, but seems like the multiple sightings I had on these two stretches, they were either in or jumped into the road as I was driving by.

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## Scruffy (Apr 29, 2018)

The only Moose I've seen outside of Maine, was in VT on 100 near Granville.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2018)

The only Moose I've seen has been on Rt 73 heading up towards the Brandon Gap 2 or 3 years ago. There was also one apparently right out behind Mutha Stuffers (the old location) a few years ago that I missed seeing by not more than a minute or two.


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## The Sneak (Apr 29, 2018)

I have been up close and personal with a moose twice in my life:

- hiking the Hunt trail on Katahdin, August 2003
- skiing Sugarbush December 27 2012. Patroller yelled “Look out! It’s a bad moose!” 

It was recorded by a bunch of folks n posted to YouTube.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2018)

The Sneak said:


> I have been up close and personal with a moose twice in my life:
> 
> - hiking the Hunt trail on Katahdin, August 2003
> - skiing Sugarbush December 27 2012. Patroller yelled “Look out! It’s a bad moose!”
> ...



I do recall seeing several videos on youtube of a Moose at Sugarbush.

In other news, from the webcam it looks like they're winching Stein's at the moment. I'm guessing with the weather forecast for the week tonight was the best choice to do this if they wanted to flatten it a bit before the final weekend.


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## teleo (Apr 29, 2018)

Was wondering why there was a cop by hancock/granville fri night around 9:15.  Glad I missed the moose and that everyone was OK. 

Today was the ultimate "you don't know til u go" day.  Goretex kept me dry until I got to heavens gate where it was snow!

From this afternoons report "will re-open*May 5th & 6th spinning*Valley House Quad*from*9 AM to 5 PM*for access to spring bumps on Stein's and hopefully some sunshine on Snowball & Spring Fling.*"

Win, there is a lot of snow up top and on the runouts.  If it survives the week, will you run heavens gate?  Hoping that report is an  under promise over deliver thing.


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## chuckstah (Apr 29, 2018)

I've seen a bunch of moose over the past 40 years or so, but there are two that stand out. One was at MRG right at the top traversing just past Catamount Bowl.  Big nasty bull that didn't want to move, clogging the trail.  Took a while for him to move into the woods a bit so we could pass.  Then he came back out and chased a bit.  The other was 10 or so years ago when a fairly small one wandered through the parking lot in Nashua, NH where I worked at the time.  Strange to see one in an urban area right on Daniel Webster Hwy.  The rest have been far north where you would expect them to be including one near Granville.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2018)

teleo said:


> Was wondering why there was a cop by hancock/granville fri night around 9:15.  Glad I missed the moose and that everyone was OK.
> 
> Today was the ultimate "you don't know til u go" day.  Goretex kept me dry until I got to heavens gate where it was snow!
> 
> ...



How early did it change over to snow? I couldn't convince myself to go out in the rain this morning and was probably a good part of the way home before it changed over. Saturday was quite good though. I was a little skeptical first thing Saturday morning, but the consistency of the snow improved as the day went on (as did the visibility up top). I sort of didn't think I would make it out today and pushed myself to ski several extra runs on Saturday even after my legs were starting to feel it.

I was a bit curious about HG for next weekend too and hoping they're just being conservative with their prediction for next weekend at this point. The amount of snow still on DS, OG, and Ripcord was quite impressive. Even Birdland seemed pretty deep still. That said, the weather this week could make a very serious dent in what's left.


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## teleo (Apr 30, 2018)

I didn't head out till after 11.  Rain wasn't to bad then.  Probably a bit after 12 for snow to make it down to base of hg.


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2018)

Yea, I left around 10 as I didn't see much point in hanging around in case it stopped or changed over. Glad people that stuck it out got a little late April powder treat though.


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## WinS (Apr 30, 2018)

cdskier said:


> How early did it change over to snow? I couldn't convince myself to go out in the rain this morning and was probably a good part of the way home before it changed over. Saturday was quite good though. I was a little skeptical first thing Saturday morning, but the consistency of the snow improved as the day went on (as did the visibility up top). I sort of didn't think I would make it out today and pushed myself to ski several extra runs on Saturday even after my legs were starting to feel it.
> 
> I was a bit curious about HG for next weekend too and hoping they're just being conservative with their prediction for next weekend at this point. The amount of snow still on DS, OG, and Ripcord was quite impressive. Even Birdland seemed pretty deep still. That said, the weather this week could make a very serious dent in what's left.



Unfortunately, no. Given the forecast Jester and Downspout probably won’t last. But the real reason is we have to start summer maintenance on Bravo. Chairs are coming off to do NDT. CD was correct in his presumption of why Stein’s was being winched. Warm and ra]n,y through Friday but weekend is looking nice at this point. The annual ski convention is this week so will miss Saturday but planning to make it back for final day on Sunday.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 30, 2018)

I totalled my car on a moose, driving from sugarloaf to jay, in island pond Vermont. it sucked. it was sunday December 23 and getting home was a nightmare. ultimately I flew from Lebanon nh to white plains ny in a 10 seater plane operated by cape air.


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## WinS (Apr 30, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I totalled my car on a moose, driving from sugarloaf to jay, in island pond Vermont. it sucked. it was sunday December 23 and getting home was a nightmare. ultimately I flew from Lebanon nh to white plains ny in a 10 seater plane operated by cape air.


I came close once at dusk on rte 12A between Randolph and Roxbury. They like to hang out in wet ares I the day and migrant up in the evening. Unlike deer there eyes do not reflect and are very hard to see and then do nor run across roads like deer. They can stand right in the middle of the road for awhile. Take the moose crossing signs seriously, especially at dusk.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 30, 2018)

WinS said:


> I came close once at dusk on rte 12A between Randolph and Roxbury. They like to hang out in wet ares I the day and migrant up in the evening. Unlike deer there eyes do not reflect and are very hard to see and then do nor run across roads like deer. They can stand right in the middle of the road for awhile. Take the moose crossing signs seriously, especially at dusk.



yep. it was snowing lightly and i was on a dark country road just before sunrise. i came over a hill and couldn't see the downhill slope until i got to the top. moose standing right in the middle of the road ten feet ahead of me. hit the brakes but couldn't stop fast enough in the fresh snow. flipped the car. terrifying experience. walked along the road for 45 min before the first car, a tanker truck, passed and stopped for me.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 30, 2018)

my moose encounter in the emerald forest.

https://youtu.be/x95MeJlG9iY


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## teleo (Apr 30, 2018)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, no. Given the forecast Jester and Downspout probably won’t last. But the real reason is we have to start summer maintenance on Bravo.



Aww bummer.  I was betting on snow making it.  Reverse traverse?  Oh never mind.


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## teleo (Apr 30, 2018)

My daughter had a better idea.  Make valley house traverse traffic go up if the runout from hg survives, or else make it 2 way traffic.  Just a short stroll with little vert.


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2018)

Hah...I like the way your daughter thinks! VHT definitely has a better chance of making it than RT/HGT unless they push snow from VHT onto Upper Snowball or something like that.

I originally had the Reverse traverse idea in my mind too as a way to get to HG without Bravo running (especially since I just did that traverse Saturday morning when Bravo was delayed) but figured there is a good chance that will be wiped out with the weather this week.


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## cdskier (May 8, 2018)

Great final weekend. I had a blast both Saturday and Sunday. 

Here's a few pictures from Saturday.

Snowball:


Spring Fling with great coverage:


Stein's with excellent coverage:


VH Chair fully loaded (hard to believe we were skiing The Mall just 2 weeks before this):


Stein's Bumping up:


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## cdskier (May 8, 2018)

And a final parting shot from Monday morning as I was leaving:


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## mikec142 (May 8, 2018)

What a wonderful season.  Thanks Win and all Sugarbush staff!


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## thetrailboss (May 8, 2018)

Looks like Stein’s was groomed (?)


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## cdskier (May 8, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Stein’s was groomed (?)



Yes it was to start. Fun seeing it go from flat to bumpy as the day goes on.


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## thetrailboss (May 9, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yes it was to start. Fun seeing it go from flat to bumpy as the day goes on.



Yes it is.  I remember that.  I remember how things looked on Saturday first run and then Sunday in the afternoon.  Looked like they had a good run this year.  And a longer season than Alta, who also just closed this past weekend.


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## WinS (May 9, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes it is.  I remember that.  I remember how things looked on Saturday first run and then Sunday in the afternoon.  Looked like they had a good run this year.  And a longer season than Alta, who also just closed this past weekend.


Would not have believed it at the end of February but it was a good year.  Thanks everyone.


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## ducky (Jul 8, 2018)

Exciting new restaurant options coming: Sage (Ana and Paul, owners of Hyde Away) opening at the old Egan's corner of 17/100 and Worthy Burger in the old Home Plate/Jay's opposite Bisbee's. Also, of course, Lawson's Finest. I travel for Worthy Burger's current location in South Royalton just to have Poutin (cheesy fries with gravy) and the Turduckin burger with blue cheese and bacon (turkey, duck, chicken meat), plus they have a very good beer selection and draft root beer.

Lots going on in the Valley currently with the Mad Marathon, Farmer's Market, Art's Festival shows at American Flatbread, Valley Arts, and the amazing Bundy Modern show. Saw the Grift on Friday night, swam in the river, climbed Sunset Rock. Went to the Stowe Balloon Fest last night. All good.

Even though we moved here for the winter, we now love the summer even more.


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## Hawk (Jul 9, 2018)

It was in the valley reporter on the 5th.  The only problem is the parking there.  They do not have enough parking and I would not be surprised if the town does not give them a hard time when it comes to the permitting.  We will see.


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## benski (Jul 9, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It was in the valley reporter on the 5th.  The only problem is the parking there.  They do not have enough parking and I would not be surprised if the town does not give them a hard time when it comes to the permitting.  We will see.



Makes sense. It would be ashamed if parking stoped the place from reaching its full potential. A downtown by me, in Croton on Hudson has some parking issue the town refuses to let any permitting without adequate parking despite a lack of solutions to the parking issue so the businesses all suck


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 11, 2018)

ducky said:


> Exciting new restaurant options coming: Sage (Ana and Paul, owners of Hyde Away) opening at the old Egan's corner of 17/100 and Worthy Burger in the old Home Plate/Jay's opposite Bisbee's. Also, of course, Lawson's Finest. I travel for Worthy Burger's current location in South Royalton just to have Poutin (cheesy fries with gravy) and the Turduckin burger with blue cheese and bacon (turkey, duck, chicken meat), plus they have a very good beer selection and draft root beer.
> 
> Lots going on in the Valley currently with the Mad Marathon, Farmer's Market, Art's Festival shows at American Flatbread, Valley Arts, and the amazing Bundy Modern show. Saw the Grift on Friday night, swam in the river, climbed Sunset Rock. Went to the Stowe Balloon Fest last night. All good.
> 
> Even though we moved here for the winter, we now love the summer even more.



Hope the new owners got all the water/sewer issues worked out that had kept the building vacant for so long.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 11, 2018)

sounds like they're ditching more condos at the base for a hotel/conference/spa.


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## cdskier (Jul 11, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> sounds like they're ditching more condos at the base for a hotel/conference/spa.



Probably a smart move. The demand for the high end condos they've been building just isn't there.


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## djd66 (Jul 12, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> sounds like they're ditching more condos at the base for a hotel/conference/spa.



My wife would enjoy the spa.  Where did you hear/read this news?


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## cdskier (Jul 12, 2018)

djd66 said:


> My wife would enjoy the spa.  Where did you hear/read this news?



It was mentioned towards the end of a recent e-mail that talked about a variety of topics...not particularly sure which mailing list it was part of as it went to one of my e-mail addresses that I don't check as often and not the one I usually receive most of my Sugarbush related e-mails on.

Win also suggested this last year in a video interview with someone (maybe MRV TV?).


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## Hawk (Jul 15, 2018)

Interesting.  I wonder how that effects the EB5 deal.  Personally, I think this would be a good thing.  I see how popular the hotel at Jay is.  They are always full with the events they have coupled with the off mountain facilities like the water park and the ice rink.  This will be good for convention groups and Weddings on top of skiers in the winter.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2018)

I have not been to Sugarbush now for seven years, but a spa would be a good idea. It will be a good weatherproof option for them. 


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## benski (Jul 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Probably a smart move. The demand for the high end condos they've been building just isn't there.



This might be the building E in the Gadd brook/Rice brook plans. Thats the one that goes at the base of the old Valley House. It was always supposed to be a hotel, with something else on the first floor, maybe the spa and conference center. Letters a-d referred to condo developments, A-rice brook, B Gadd Brook, and C/d were lower down/ on the side lot. But this hotel sounds bigger than a remember building E.


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## cdskier (Jul 15, 2018)

benski said:


> This might be the building E in the Gadd brook/Rice brook plans. Thats the one that goes at the base of the old Valley House. It was always supposed to be a hotel, with something else on the first floor, maybe the spa and conference center. Letters a-d referred to condo developments, A-rice brook, B Gadd Brook, and C/d were lower down/ on the side lot. But this hotel sounds bigger than a remember building E.



Could but, but it does sound like it would be different than what they originally planned for building E. Building E originally had only 30 studio/hotel rooms in it with mixed use space on the 1st floor.

To add context, here's what was said in the e-mail from Sugarbush:


> _While we had envisioned building additional condominiums, we are now in the process of rethinking the best use of the land in the base area and are thinking that a conference center with a hotel and spa is what is most in demand._



To me this sounds like they want to change the latest Master Plan a bit.

In other news, did anyone know GMVS was widening the lower portion of the Brambles trail? They received the ACT250 approval last week.


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## benski (Jul 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> In other news, did anyone know GMVS was widening the lower portion of the Brambles trail? They received the ACT250 approval last week.



That sounds so uncalled for. I have been hoping for a while they would let half that section of Brambles fill in so the whole trail is narrow.


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## cdskier (Jul 15, 2018)

benski said:


> That sounds so uncalled for. I have been hoping for a while they would let half that section of Brambles fill in so the whole trail is narrow.



Here's the reasoning:


> The improvements to the existing Brambles trail at Sugarbush Resort will provide improved race training for GMVS students and improved terrain for all skiers.  The proposed width of the trail widening is necessary in order for the race hill to be homologated/approved by the ski racing governing authorities – FIS and U.S. Ski and Snowboard.  Homologation approval will enable the trail to be used as a Giant Slalom racing venue.  This approval requires a minimum width of 50 meters and the project proposes improving the trail to this width.  The proposed width will provide for appropriate space to erect safety fencing and will provide industry standard distances between gate placement, race fencing/netting and fixed obstacles such as snow guns and trees.  By maintaining these standards, the trail will be able to be used safely for races, training and all skiers.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 16, 2018)

benski said:


> That sounds so uncalled for. I have been hoping for a while they would let half that section of Brambles fill in so the whole trail is narrow.



Wasn’t it widened recently? Like in the last ten years or so?


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## cdskier (Jul 16, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Wasn’t it widened recently? Like in the last ten years or so?



2004 according to the ACT 250 database. I couldn't find specifics in that older approval of the plans for exactly which part was widened and by how much though (looks like maybe not all the files pertaining to the approval were uploaded to the ACT250 db for that entry).


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## benski (Jul 16, 2018)

cdskier said:


> 2004 according to the ACT 250 database. I couldn't find specifics in that older approval of the plans for exactly which part was widened and by how much though (looks like maybe not all the files pertaining to the approval were uploaded to the ACT250 db for that entry).



From here is it in 2003 
Here is it in 2006


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## tumbler (Jul 17, 2018)

I've given up on Brambles as a trail for a while now.  The woods are fun but the trail is closed so often and it is not worth getting yelled at for poaching by the GMVS coaches at the bottom.  They should just change the name of trail.


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## benski (Jul 17, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I've given up on Brambles as a trail for a while now.  The woods are fun but the trail is closed so often and it is not worth getting yelled at for poaching by the GMVS coaches at the bottom.  They should just change the name of trail.



Sugarbush needs to recon with GMVS about that. Often when the trail is closed, GMVS is only using half of inverness, and for some reason likes to use the left side, which blocks off brambles.


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 17, 2018)

Why not just extend Brambles so it doesn't intersect with Inverness?


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## benski (Jul 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Why not just extend Brambles so it doesn't intersect with Inverness?



It would be really complex. There is a creek skiers left of brambles and inverness, and you would probably need a large bridge to cross it. There are homes pretty close to inverness on the other side, so I assume the property line fallows the creek.


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## cdskier (Jul 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Why not just extend Brambles so it doesn't intersect with Inverness?



Sort of irrelevant for non-racers considering they want to use Brambles for racing anyway as that seems to be their primary reason in widening it based on the info in the permit documents.


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## tumbler (Jul 18, 2018)

I would also be happy if GMVS expanded their lodge so the Mt Ellen lodge wasn't stuffed with racers and their bags strewn everywhere.  They can walk over and get food but bring it back to the GMVS lodge.


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## tumbler (Jul 18, 2018)

And not to mention the skis everywhere on the ground and not properly stowed in a rack :wink:


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## cdskier (Jul 18, 2018)

I never understood why people leave skis on the ground instead of putting them in the racks. Maybe I could understand if the racks were actually completely full, but if that happened often then the ski resort should put out more racks. There have been times the racks are half empty though and skis are still on the ground, so clearly full racks aren't the main problem.


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## 180 (Jul 18, 2018)

I don't see anything wrong with leaving skis on the ground. I have had more issues with my stuff getting moved, pushed over and generally not cared for while in a rack


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 18, 2018)

180 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with leaving skis on the ground. I have had more issues with my stuff getting moved, pushed over and generally not cared for while in a rack


  Do you have exceptionally short skis that don't make it to the top of the rack?  Over many years of skiing and riding, I have never had my gear bothered while in a rack.  I have seen instances of very short skis & poles falling through racks, however, and many instances of gear rudely piled up on top of others.


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## Smellytele (Jul 18, 2018)

180 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with leaving skis on the ground. I have had more issues with my stuff getting moved, pushed over and generally not cared for while in a rack



Equipment on the ground that I have to walk around? I will make no real attempt to kick it or step on it but I will not make an attempt to walk around it and if I step on it or kick it I don't feel bad.


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 18, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Equipment on the ground that I have to walk around? I will make no real attempt to kick it or step on it but I will not make an attempt to walk around it and if I step on it or kick it I don't feel bad.


 Agreed.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2018)

cdskier said:


> 2004 according to the ACT 250 database. I couldn't find specifics in that older approval of the plans for exactly which part was widened and by how much though (looks like maybe not all the files pertaining to the approval were uploaded to the ACT250 db for that entry).



Yes.  That's it.  I remember skiing it the last year I was in college and then coming back in 2005 or so to find it dramatically different.  Right below the birch glades they widened it.  

As to terrain control, it is frustrating to see Inverness and Brambles closed so often.  But if folks want some perspective, go to Burke now on a midweek day and you will routinely find multiple trails roped off with BMA gates set up and NOBODY training.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I would also be happy if GMVS expanded their lodge so the Mt Ellen lodge wasn't stuffed with racers and their bags strewn everywhere.  They can walk over and get food but bring it back to the GMVS lodge.



Exactly.  The issue is, IIRC, that GMVS has their own lodge and guest programs use the main lodge as their base.  As to lodge and skiing etiquette, the entitlement of the race crowd create a lot of issues.  I will say that only in Vermont did I see lots of ski racers through bags and gear around and leaving a mess.  At Snowbird I see some of that on race days, but not nearly the same level.


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## cdskier (Jul 18, 2018)

180 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with leaving skis on the ground. I have had more issues with my stuff getting moved, pushed over and generally not cared for while in a rack



Don't see an issue? Really? I've never had my skis moved from a rack or pushed over in my many years of skiing. 



Smellytele said:


> Equipment on the ground that I have to walk around? I will make no real attempt to kick it or step on it but I will not make an attempt to walk around it and if I step on it or kick it I don't feel bad.



This. No one should have to attempt to walk around/through a ski minefield in front of any lodge.

If there's a bike rack in front of a store, is it ok to instead of using the rack simply leave your bike on the sidewalk in front of the store? It really is the same concept.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Don't see an issue? Really? I've never had my skis moved from a rack or pushed over in my many years of skiing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## skiur (Jul 18, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Equipment on the ground that I have to walk around? I will make no real attempt to kick it or step on it but I will not make an attempt to walk around it and if I step on it or kick it I don't feel bad.



It kinda depends where on the ground people leave there shit, if it is in a clearly stupid spot then I have no probblem kicking some poles out of the way, even if they do end up 20 feet away from the skis that happen to go the other way.  When the person comes back and has to spend a few minutes finding their shit, then lets hope they learned a lesson on where to leave their shit.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Jul 18, 2018)

cdskier said:


> If there's a bike rack in front of a store, is it ok to instead of using the rack simply leave your bike on the sidewalk in front of the store? It really is the same concept.



Not quite an apple to apples comparison, but interesting anyway. 
If ppl left bikes out like skis there'd be a lot more stolen bikes. Maybe we need to encourage ski theft![emoji23]


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## benski (Jul 18, 2018)

skiur said:


> It kinda depends where on the ground people leave there shit, if it is in a clearly stupid spot then I have no probblem kicking some poles out of the way, even if they do end up 20 feet away from the skis that happen to go the other way.  When the person comes back and has to spend a few minutes finding their shit, then lets hope they learned a lesson on where to leave their shit.



At mount Ellen by 12 there are skis all over the place behind the lodge. It’s a huge mess and the racks are only half full.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 18, 2018)

The disrespect shown by racers really should be policed by their coaches.  It's a big problem at Attitash as well.  If I were a coach the rules would be pretty simple.  Act like a slob and you forfeit your bib and can watch the race for the day.  

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## gregnye (Jul 18, 2018)

cdskier said:


> If there's a bike rack in front of a store, is it ok to instead of using the rack simply leave your bike on the sidewalk in front of the store? It really is the same concept.



I 100% agree that ski clutter is annoying, but I also find this comment amusing because recently (just this year!) in cities (like the Boston area), bike-share companies such as Limebike have a business model where you can leave the rental bike anywhere (sidewalk, street, lawn, it doesn't matter). Numerous people have complained about these bikes cluttering up their front yards. Some people even are throwing them in the Charles River!  

It's basically just like the ski-clutter of racers in front of lodges, just throughout these metro areas!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The disrespect shown by racers really should be policed by their coaches.  It's a big problem at Attitash as well.  If I were a coach the rules would be pretty simple.  Act like a slob and you forfeit your bib and can watch the race for the day.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Spot on


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 18, 2018)

cdskier said:


> * No one should have to attempt to walk around/through a ski minefield in front of any lodge*.



Oh, this topic again.  There's a special place in hell for people who just dump their skis on the ground (or parents who dont teach their kids proper respect).  

I will say, however, occasionally *(RARELY)* the ski area is at fault; for instance, this year at Jay Peak towards the end of the season they pulled a ton of racks, and on a busy Saturday there genuinely was nowhere to put your skis.  So people laid them all over the rock wall, against the exterior, all over the ground, etc...


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 18, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> *The disrespect shown by racers* *really should be policed *by their coaches. * It's a big problem at Attitash *





thetrailboss said:


> *Spot on*



Where ISN'T it a _"big problem"_ when racer kids descend upon a property?

I've noticed this for years, but I've never understood it from a sociological perspective.

1) Are racer kids simply raised more entitled to do whatever they want, with no control or accountability?  
2) Are racer kids statistically significantly more likely to have bad parents?  
3) Did it evolve culturally that racer kids can toss their crap anywhere they want (seems unlikely)?   

I. Dont.  Get.  It.   

But the _"racer crap tossed everywhere"_, occurrence is undeniably real.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2018)

The one argument I've heard in support of the 11 year old wanna be next Bode Miller or Lindsey Vonn is that leaving the skis on the ground is somehow better for the base/wax of the skis.  If this is true for junior to shave an additional .0001 seconds off their race time, then it should fall on the mountain to fence off a nice little area for the racers. 

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## machski (Jul 19, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The one argument I've heard in support of the 11 year old wanna be next Bode Miller or Lindsey Vonn is that leaving the skis on the ground is somehow better for the base/wax of the skis.  If this is true for junior to shave an additional .0001 seconds off their race time, then it should fall on the mountain to fence off a nice little area for the racers.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


There may be some truth to this, especially on a warmer day.  To keep the bases at the snowpack temp.  But what about the lift ride up if not a surface lift? 

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## skiur (Jul 19, 2018)

machski said:


> There may be some truth to this, especially on a warmer day.  To keep the bases at the snowpack temp.  But what about the lift ride up if not a surface lift?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Well then it seems racers should be banned from the chairs and only allowed to ride surface lifts in the name of getting the best time!


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 19, 2018)

skiur said:


> Well then it seems racers should be banned from the chairs and only allowed to ride surface lifts in the name of getting the best time!



Dragged up by snowmobile


----------



## rtjcbrown (Jul 19, 2018)

I think that the "Benign Neglect" shown by ski resorts towards this minefield of equipment that the average skier must negotiate to get to the lodge will inevitably end when some poor soul will trip, fall, and get seriously hurt, and then sue the ski area. 
Not the same, but similar is the stroller problem in Disney World. Parents would just leave them anywhere, leading to clogged up pathways and entrances. This was addressed by creating roped off corrals for stroller parking, and a worker posted outside to direct people where to park the strollers, and to move the ones left by those who choose to think the rules don't apply to them.


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## tumbler (Jul 19, 2018)

Hire someone to pick my skis up and rack them then unrack and place on ground for me and clean off my boots when I am ready...


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2018)

machski said:


> There may be some truth to this, especially on a warmer day.  To keep the bases at the snowpack temp.  But *what about the lift ride up* if not a surface lift?



Completely negates the "some truth" mentioned prior.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 19, 2018)

This thread now makes me want to leave my skis on the ground so bad.  All you curmudgeons need an enema.  Next year I am going to go to the racks and move everybody's skis around from rack to rack so that I can watch the mayhem. I may even put them on the ground next to the door.  Yup that's it.   I will never put my skis on the rack again.  HA HA


----------



## skiur (Jul 19, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This thread now makes me want to leave my skis on the ground so bad.  All you curmudgeons need an enema.  Next year I am going to go to the racks and move everybody's skis around from rack to rack so that I can watch the mayhem. I may even put them on the ground next to the door.  Yup that's it.   I will never put my skis on the rack again.  HA HA




I wish I could be as cool as you!


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 19, 2018)

skiur said:


> I wish I could be as cool as you!



Lighten up francis,He was being sarcastic.

Leaving your skis on the ground is easier to click in after you had a few in the bar.

I don’t mind if there’s some order, like parking a lot arrangement. Bulwinkles at SL doesn’t quite have enough racks but the times I’ve been there most people seem to line up and not block the entrance. Better than leaning them on a fence and waiting for the domino effect.


----------



## benski (Jul 19, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Hire someone to pick my skis up and rack them then unrack and place on ground for me and clean off my boots when I am ready...



Better idea, throw them into the woods and leave a note so the kids can find them by the end of the day.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 20, 2018)

Silicone Bob is right.  I was kidding on the action part of my email.  I just don't see what the bid deal is as I have never even had a thought about this at Sugarbush.  The grand majority of people (at least the ones that I socialize with) are way laid back and don't have problems with most things.  This deep rooted hatred of the Ski Program kids is troubling to me.  I don't have kids in any programs but have friends with kids in the programs.  Those kids are nothing but kind and respectful.  When I come down to the lodge, there are skis on the ground and I ski around them.  Never had and issue and never had any thoughts of anger about them.  We are a community at Sugarbush and most of us coexist together with very little angst.  I have a feeling that most people that have issues are not really part of that community.  But then again maybe not.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> We are a community at Sugarbush and most of us coexist together with very little angst.  I have a feeling that most people that have issues are not really part of that community.


 +1


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Silicone Bob is right.  I was kidding on the action part of my email.  I just don't see what the bid deal is as I have never even had a thought about this at Sugarbush.  The grand majority of people (at least the ones that I socialize with) are way laid back and don't have problems with most things.  This deep rooted hatred of the Ski Program kids is troubling to me.  I don't have kids in any programs but have friends with kids in the programs.  Those kids are nothing but kind and respectful.  When I come down to the lodge, there are skis on the ground and I ski around them.  Never had and issue and never had any thoughts of anger about them.  We are a community at Sugarbush and most of us coexist together with very little angst.  I have a feeling that most people that have issues are not really part of that community.  But then again maybe not.



This is not just Sugarbush that people are speaking of when it comes to racers leaving their skis laying on the ground. Glad it is all kumbaya at Sugarbush though.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Silicone Bob is right.  I was kidding on the action part of my email.  I just don't see what the bid deal is as I have never even had a thought about this at Sugarbush.  The grand majority of people (at least the ones that I socialize with) are way laid back and don't have problems with most things.  This deep rooted hatred of the Ski Program kids is troubling to me.  I don't have kids in any programs but have friends with kids in the programs.  Those kids are nothing but kind and respectful.  When I come down to the lodge, there are skis on the ground and I ski around them.  Never had and issue and never had any thoughts of anger about them.  We are a community at Sugarbush and most of us coexist together with very little angst.  I have a feeling that most people that have issues are not really part of that community.  But then again maybe not.



I think people here are talking about two very different things. The racers at Mt Ellen are nothing like the kids in the Blazers programs at Lincoln Peak. I'm not going to necessarily say it is the racers leaving their skis on the ground, but at Mt Ellen it is a huge issue while at Lincoln Peak you rarely see the vast number of skis on the ground by the lodge that you often do at Mt Ellen. Even when it is racers, it easily could be racers from other ski areas that are at Mt Ellen for the day participating in an event. No one ever said they had a problem with the kids in the Ski Programs at Sugarbush in this thread.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I think people here are talking about two very different things. The racers at Mt Ellen are nothing like the kids in the Blazers programs at Lincoln Peak. I'm not going to necessarily say it is the racers leaving their skis on the ground, but at Mt Ellen it is a huge issue while at Lincoln Peak you rarely see the vast number of skis on the ground by the lodge that you often do at Mt Ellen. Even when it is racers, it easily could be racers from other ski areas that are at Mt Ellen for the day participating in an event. No one ever said they had a problem with the kids in the Ski Programs at Sugarbush in this thread.


Actually was generally speaking and had both mountains and all programs and Race programs in mind.  I have at least 4 friends/Families that are currently enrolled at GMVS or race ski at Mellon.  So it is just my opinion that even there, I do not have a problem with the ski on the ground or the kids in the race program.  In the end we all have our pet peeves.  Mine is snowmaking as you know.  Others it is this ski thing or the perception of the entitled kid thing.  That's not me.  To each his own.  ;-)


----------



## tumbler (Jul 20, 2018)

This was about Brambles being widened and closed all the time.  The skis on the ground was a joke to get people riled up.  And it worked!  In fact I leave my skis on the ground sometimes (GASP)


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I think people here are talking about two very different things. The racers at Mt Ellen are nothing like the kids in the Blazers programs at Lincoln Peak. I'm not going to necessarily say it is the racers leaving their skis on the ground, but at Mt Ellen it is a huge issue while at Lincoln Peak you rarely see the vast number of skis on the ground by the lodge that you often do at Mt Ellen. Even when it is racers, it easily could be racers from other ski areas that are at Mt Ellen for the day participating in an event. No one ever said they had a problem with the kids in the Ski Programs at Sugarbush in this thread.



Thats because at LP there is the long fence to lean the skis up against.  I really dont have a problem with the skis on the ground at mellon and do it myself when the racks are full.  I'd prefer it to be more orderly but in the grand scheme of things its not that big a deal and its actually nice to see that there is more than a smattering of skiers there.  but it is summertime so there has to be something to complain about.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Actually was generally speaking and had both mountains and all programs and Race programs in mind.  I have at least 4 friends/Families that are currently enrolled at GMVS or race ski at Mellon.  So it is just my opinion that even there, I do not have a problem with the ski on the ground or the kids in the race program.  In the end we all have our pet peeves.  Mine is snowmaking as you know.  Others it is this ski thing or the perception of the entitled kid thing.  That's not me.  To each his own.  ;-)



what?  you have snowmaking issues?  who knew.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> Thats because at LP there is the long fence to lean the skis up against.  I really dont have a problem with the skis on the ground at mellon and do it myself when the racks are full.  I'd prefer it to be more orderly but in the grand scheme of things its not that big a deal and its actually nice to see that there is more than a smattering of skiers there.  but it is summertime so there has to be something to complain about.



I've seen times at ME where the racks are half empty yet the ground is covered in skis. It was either last year or the year before that they even had signs out saying don't leave your skis on the ground it got so bad. Several times they had employees picking skis up and putting them in racks. When the racks are full I can't blame people for doing it as they really have no other option. In that case it is on the resort to ensure there are enough racks. But when the racks are half empty there really is no excuse. If it wasn't an issue, SB wouldn't have put out signs and sent employees to pick up skis and put them in the racks.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> *This deep rooted hatred of the Ski Program kids is troubling to me. *



There's a _"deep-rooted hatred"_ of the ski program kids at Sugarbush?   

Color me skeptical, that seems weird.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's a _"deep-rooted hatred"_ of the ski program kids at Sugarbush?
> 
> Color me skeptical, that seems weird.



There isn't. He was referring to what he was reading in this thread (which I think was misinterpreted as I didn't see what he saw).


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There isn't. He was referring to what he was reading in this thread (which I think was misinterpreted as I didn't see what he saw).



there have been some complaints in the past about the blazer kids cutting the lift lines and/or filling up the bus on german flats.  haters gonna hate.


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## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> there have been some complaints in the past about the blazer kids cutting the lift lines and/or filling up the bus on german flats.  haters gonna hate.



I was referring to not seeing any hatred toward them in the current conversation. I do vaguely remember the lift line complaints a while ago, although can't say I ever really saw that happen much personally. The coaches are very good about making sure the kids are respectful from what I've seen. One time my dad was standing at the top of Spring Fling and a kid almost skied into him. The coach made the kid apologize and reminded her that she always needs to watch where she is going.


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 20, 2018)

Ahh Sugarbush.... the only place where you can find grown men with neoprene boot coverings/heated socks fighting pre-teenaged kids. Love going there!


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## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Ahh Sugarbush.... the only place where you can find grown men with neoprene boot coverings/heated socks fighting pre-teenaged kids. Love going there!



That is a dead issue. It was one single guest that could have happened anywhere. I'm not aware of any resort that has a pre-screening process that would prevent idiots from buying a ticket. If I remember correctly, that person's ticket was also revoked once management was alerted.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's a _"deep-rooted hatred"_ of the ski program kids at Sugarbush?
> 
> Color me skeptical, that seems weird.



Agreed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Ahh Sugarbush.... the only place where you can find grown men with neoprene boot coverings/heated socks fighting pre-teenaged kids. Love going there!



Was this the guy?


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## Hawk (Jul 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There isn't. He was referring to what he was reading in this thread (which I think was misinterpreted as I didn't see what he saw).



Go back to posts 4382, 4388, 4392 and 4397 and tell me that these people do not have issues with ski racers.  It seems to me it is hard to misinterpret how they feel.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 20, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Was this the guy?



No sorry those kids in the video look old enough to actually defend themselves.....


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## cdskier (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Go back to posts 4382, 4388, 4392 and 4397 and tell me that these people do not have issues with ski racers.  It seems to me it is hard to misinterpret how they feel.



Issues is not the same as hatred. Even re-reading those posts, I don't see anything to that level. All those posts are pretty much talking in general, not really issues specifically at Sugarbush.

Oh well, slow day at work and I'm off to the lake for the weekend. No more posts from me today.


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## rtjcbrown (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Go back to posts 4382, 4388, 4392 and 4397 and tell me that these people do not have issues with ski racers.  It seems to me it is hard to misinterpret how they feel.



As the author of post 4397, I can tell you I do not have issues with ski racers, so you have "misinterpreted how they (I) feel". My issue is with ANYONE who leaves their skis in a place that makes it difficult for others to navigate access to the lodge when there is available space on the rack. If you need to turn it into an attack on ski racers, then that's on you. My point is one of common courtesy to other skiers.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Go back to posts 4382, 4388, 4392 and 4397 and tell me that these people do not have issues with ski racers.  It seems to me it is hard to misinterpret how they feel.



As the author of post 4392, I can tell you I do not have issues with ski racers (save the 1 mentioned), but I think you may have an issue with literary absolutism.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 20, 2018)

I really only play the part of a curmudgeon on the internet and don't get too bothered by the slobs in real life.

Having said that, F those punk kids

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mbedle (Jul 21, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> As the author of post 4392, I can tell you I do not have issues with ski racers (save the 1 mentioned), but I think you may have an issue with literary absolutism.



WTF are you talking about? - It seems pretty clear to me after reading your post below, that you do have issues. 

Quote Originally Posted by deadheadskier  View Post
The disrespect shown by racers really should be policed by their coaches. It's a big problem at Attitash
Quote Originally Posted by thetrailboss  View Post
Spot on
Where ISN'T it a "big problem" when racer kids descend upon a property?

I've noticed this for years, but I've never understood it from a sociological perspective.

1) Are racer kids simply raised more entitled to do whatever they want, with no control or accountability? 
2) Are racer kids statistically significantly more likely to have bad parents? 
3) Did it evolve culturally that racer kids can toss their crap anywhere they want (seems unlikely)? 

I. Dont. Get. It. 

But the "racer crap tossed everywhere", occurrence is undeniably real.


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## WWF-VT (Jul 21, 2018)

FWIW...new pump house building under construction at the pond at Mt Ellen


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2018)

mbedle said:


> *WTF are you talking about? - It seems pretty clear to me after reading your post below, that you do have issues.*



Hence, _"SAVE the 1 mentioned"._



BenedictGomez said:


> But *the "racer crap tossed everywhere", occurrence is undeniably real*.



And your _"issue"_ is apparently reading for content.


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## mbedle (Jul 23, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hence, _"SAVE the 1 mentioned"._
> 
> 
> 
> And your _"issue"_ is apparently reading for content.



You lost me on that one.


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## tumbler (Jul 23, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW...new pump house building under construction at the pond at Mt Ellen



I wonder if capacity is going up or just building a new structure.  The main pumphouse is down by the Fayston Elem School and the pond was used for boosting.  (this was years ago)


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## Newpylong (Jul 23, 2018)

Their systems are not configured like that. They are rebuilding the pumps and pumphouse at Ellen pond (next to Inverness) which feeds Inverness pod, down North Ridge/Terrain Park and base area. There is a 3rd wet pit but they chose not to add another pump. This pump house is 800 gpm.

The water for the rest of the system (seperate) comes from the "Van Loon" pump station at the 2 brooks next to the elementary school and is sent up to the main pumphouse to the left of the Alpine Comp Center. 2500 gpm.


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## Hawk (Jul 24, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I really only play the part of a curmudgeon on the internet and don't get too bothered by the slobs in real life.
> 
> Having said that, F those punk kids
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



HA, HA.   That's awesome.  I have to admire someone that can stick with their convictions.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 24, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Their systems are not configured like that. They are rebuilding the pumps and pumphouse at Ellen pond (next to Inverness) which feeds Inverness pod, down North Ridge/Terrain Park and base area. There is a 3rd wet pit but they chose not to add another pump. This pump house is 800 gpm.
> 
> The water for the rest of the system (seperate) comes from the "Van Loon" pump station at the 2 brooks next to the elementary school and is sent up to the main pumphouse to the left of the Alpine Comp Center. 2500 gpm.



Snowmaking upgrades?   Hmmm.  I like the sound of that.  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Their systems are not configured like that. They are rebuilding the pumps and pumphouse at Ellen pond (next to Inverness) which feeds Inverness pod, down North Ridge/Terrain Park and base area. There is a 3rd wet pit but they chose not to add another pump. This pump house is 800 gpm.
> 
> The water for the rest of the system (seperate) comes from the "Van Loon" pump station at the 2 brooks next to the elementary school and is sent up to the main pumphouse to the left of the Alpine Comp Center. 2500 gpm.



Interesting.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 1, 2018)

From Win: Last week a new owner closed on the Paradise Deli.  Already some nice improvements are noticeable and he plans to close for a short while this fall for further improvements.  Also, the former Terra Rosa on the Sugarbush Access Road is reopening  as Avalanche and will feature pizza in its wood oven. Richie who made pizza for us for the past few years in the Gatehouse Lodge will be the chef at Avalanche.  These happenings are in addition to Worthy Burger coming to the Valley and the reopening of Egan’s under new ownership this fall as Sage.


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## tumbler (Aug 1, 2018)

Good stuff for the valley!  Hopefully they will all succeed.  My kids love the gatehouse pizza so hopefully there has been an apprentice pizza chef.

What's next?  The old Egan's being sold and re-opened?!?!


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## djd66 (Aug 1, 2018)

tumbler said:


> What's next?  The old Egan's being sold and re-opened?!?!



Yes, that happened a few weeks ago.


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## tumbler (Aug 2, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Yes, that happened a few weeks ago.



I'm talking the original Egan's not the one at Gallagher's.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 3, 2018)

Would be nice to see something in there.


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## ducky (Aug 14, 2018)

Mad Burger (of Mad Taco) is going into the old Purple Moon/Shepherds Pub. They have been operating out of the Hostel Tevere this summer.

Also heard the folks from the Common Man will be running food service at The Pitcher Inn and Tracks.

My favorite new place from Royalton is Worthy Burger for their tur-duck-en burger with blue cheese and bacon served with Poutine fries. They'll be in the old Jay's. They're doing a full rebuild and redesign with a big bar down the back wall and no divider up the middle.

The hornets are nesting high this year.


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## cdskier (Aug 14, 2018)

ducky said:


> Also heard the folks from the Common Man will be running food service at The Pitcher Inn and Tracks.



I heard as well that Adam will be taking over there as chef when I was up in the valley this weekend. On a related note, I still can't believe Common Man is becoming condos. That was such a beautiful building for a restaurant, although I can see why it is tough to have a successful restaurant in the non-winter in that location.


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## tumbler (Aug 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I heard as well that Adam will be taking over there as chef when I was up in the valley this weekend. On a related note, I still can't believe Common Man is becoming condos. That was such a beautiful building for a restaurant, although I can see why it is tough to have a successful restaurant in the non-winter in that location.



I am honestly bummed out to hear that the people from the Common Man will be taking over Pitcher Inn and Tracks.  It has already gone through a change making the upstairs and Tracks the same menu.  Yes, upstairs was expensive but worth every penny and was the best food in the Valley.  I wonder how this will effect their Relaix & Chauteax membership.  Food is a huge part of that.  I found their food at the Common Man meh and the menu was small and never changing.  I was also very put off that they did not have a kids menu and would charge $20 for a pasta with butter.  I hope that they do not change the menu and make it smaller than it already is.

As for a restaurant being successful in that location?  When Mike owned it was tremendously successful year round.  That was the place in the Valley to get a high quality meal and the atmosphere was great.

I am looking forward to Worthy Burger and good news that Mad Burger is taking over the purple moon.  I hope that two burger places can do well.  If they do take out that would be even better...


----------



## cdskier (Aug 14, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I am honestly bummed out to hear that the people from the Common Man will be taking over Pitcher Inn and Tracks.  It has already gone through a change making the upstairs and Tracks the same menu.  Yes, upstairs was expensive but worth every penny and was the best food in the Valley.  I wonder how this will effect their Relaix & Chauteax membership.  Food is a huge part of that.  I found their food at the Common Man meh and the menu was small and never changing.  I was also very put off that they did not have a kids menu and would charge $20 for a pasta with butter.  I hope that they do not change the menu and make it smaller than it already is.
> 
> As for a restaurant being successful in that location?  When Mike owned it was tremendously successful year round.  That was the place in the Valley to get a high quality meal and the atmosphere was great.
> 
> I am looking forward to Worthy Burger and good news that Mad Burger is taking over the purple moon.  I hope that two burger places can do well.  If they do take out that would be even better...



I thought Pitcher Inn's food was amazing when Sue was the chef, but I never made it there last year and heard they had a different chef (Michael) so can't comment on the more recent changes that happened there.

Interesting that you say Adam's food was "meh". Personally I've always felt the same way but people seem to have loved his food so much that I'd often just not bother telling people I didn't care for it as I thought maybe it was just me. The few people I said that to seemed to think I was crazy.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 14, 2018)

Interesting the number of owners that signed up for the program.

https://snowbrains.com/sugarbush-vermont-affordable-housing/


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## HowieT2 (Aug 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I thought Pitcher Inn's food was amazing when Sue was the chef, but I never made it there last year and heard they had a different chef (Michael) so can't comment on the more recent changes that happened there.
> 
> Interesting that you say Adam's food was "meh". Personally I've always felt the same way but people seem to have loved his food so much that I'd often just not bother telling people I didn't care for it as I thought maybe it was just me. The few people I said that to seemed to think I was crazy.



too funny.  Ive always had this debate with my wife and daughter.  they loved common man.  I thought the menu was limited and the food good but nothing to get excited about.
psyched for the 2 new burger places.


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## Hawk (Aug 15, 2018)

I liked the common man.  I liked it more when the original owners were in charge but Adam did a pretty good job.  We ate there 2 or 3 times last year and I was not really disappointed.  Critiquing food is really hard.  Some peoples expectations are sometime so outrageous you can't tell if they just hate food.  ;-)  No really,  everybody is different and so I never take anybody's opinion on food.  I go myself and form my own opinion.  On more than one occasion my wife and I have sat at the end of a meal and said "Glad we didn't listen to that person".  

But what the valley does not need is more Burger joints.  You can get a Neil farm burger in just about any restaurant in the valley.  We need more diversity and more on the high end since Common Man went away and Pitcher Inn is changing although maybe not changing that much.  I like the Tucker Hill Inn lately.


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## cdskier (Aug 15, 2018)

Hawk said:


> But what the valley does not need is more Burger joints.  You can get a Neil farm burger in just about any restaurant in the valley.  We need more diversity and more on the high end since Common Man went away and Pitcher Inn is changing although maybe not changing that much.  I like the Tucker Hill Inn lately.



I agree with this. That's why I'm personally interested to see what Sage ends up doing. I've liked Tucker Hill the handful of times I've been there. Peasant is still my go to for a good dinner, but I'd like more higher end choices as well. In terms of diversity, I hope Fit2Be Thai'd continues to stick around for a long time as they are awesome for something different (and are a tremendous value too in my opinion).


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## HowieT2 (Aug 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I agree with this. That's why I'm personally interested to see what Sage ends up doing. I've liked Tucker Hill the handful of times I've been there. Peasant is still my go to for a good dinner, but I'd like more higher end choices as well. In terms of diversity, I hope Fit2Be Thai'd continues to stick around for a long time as they are awesome for something different (and are a tremendous value too in my opinion).



big fan of fit t b thaid.
I disagree about the burger situation.  while its true u can get a burger anywhere, there really is a limited selection of places for reasonably priced bar food.  CR pub closes before dinner.  mad river barn is impossible to get into.  I like dinos place in sb village but that's really it.
I have to go to too many fancy/expensive restaurants in my real world to have much of a desire for that up in the mrv.
As far as diversity, I'd like to see a sushi place and vietnamese.


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## spring_mountain_high (Aug 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I thought Pitcher Inn's food was amazing when Sue was the chef, but I never made it there last year and heard they had a different chef (Michael) so can't comment on the more recent changes that happened there.
> 
> Interesting that you say Adam's food was "meh". Personally I've always felt the same way but people seem to have loved his food so much that I'd often just not bother telling people I didn't care for it as I thought maybe it was just me. The few people I said that to seemed to think I was crazy.



+2...sue's food and mason's hospitality made pitcher inn one of my favorite dining experiences ever, totally worth the splurge.  common man never excited me that much, menu or execution, but that is, like, just my opinion, man

with 2 little kids the menu nowadays is cooking at home and saving money


----------



## cdskier (Aug 15, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I disagree about the burger situation.  while its true u can get a burger anywhere, there really is a limited selection of places for reasonably priced bar food.  CR pub closes before dinner.  mad river barn is impossible to get into.  I like dinos place in sb village but that's really it..



Hah. Dino's place is probably one of the few that I didn't care for (although I did like the sign over the bar about last call). What about Hyde Away, Localfolk, Blue Stone, or even Rumbles? Tucker Hill has a pub too. I normally don't have a problem squeezing into the barn, but I usually only have 1 or 2 people with me.

On another food note, The Butchery in Waitsfield is closed as they decided they were doing so well with their new Stowe location that they would just focus on that one. I don't think I saw that mentioned in this thread yet.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Hah. Dino's place is probably one of the few that I didn't care for (although I did like the sign over the bar about last call). What about Hyde Away, Localfolk, Blue Stone, or even Rumbles? Tucker Hill has a pub too. I normally don't have a problem squeezing into the barn, but I usually only have 1 or 2 people with me.
> 
> On another food note, The Butchery in Waitsfield is closed as they decided they were doing so well with their new Stowe location that they would just focus on that one. I don't think I saw that mentioned in this thread yet.



forgot about the hyde away which I love.  my wife doesnt dig bbq or the scene at the smokehouse so I rarely go there.  Ive never been to blue stone although Ive heard good things especially about their burgers.  also never been to tucker hill inn.

the butchery had some good steaks but that's more a summer thing for us grilling.

man, I need to get back up there.


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 15, 2018)

We had a great dinner at the Tucker Hill Inn this summer and will definitely go there more often.  Looking forward to Worthy Burger too.


----------



## teleo (Aug 15, 2018)

The butchery closed[emoji23] bummer.  Not so sure about the demand for 2 new burger joints.  Agree with Tucker Hill Inn. Went for 1st time in july, had dinner on the deck and it was great.


----------



## 1dog (Aug 16, 2018)

Just very happy there is no chains in valley. I don 't even like the flashing solar-powered speed signs - ruins the 1950's vibe.

Not sure of of the decade old fact of Stowe/K-Mart with 30-40K beds and MRV with 6K beds, but I bet the ratio is still around that. If you don't have the population you can't have 15-20 choices in a seasonal business. Certainly more people living in MRV that work remotely tho.
Summers have gotten much busier than 20 years ago, but volume is volume. Might not be there for sustainable businesses. And of course, the old adage - 85% of restaurants fail in 1st 5 years. . .  its a tough business. Like someone said here - Hawk or Howie maybe - one persons 'wow' is another persons 'eh'. Take people to Flatbread at least 3-4 times a year - some love, some say ' what? where the cheese? Tomato sauce? $24 a pie??'  Liberty and freedom to choose your own way. What a country, huh?. Snow flies in 3 months . . .


----------



## tumbler (Aug 16, 2018)

If one of the burger places can have a well run and timely to go/pick up operation then I think that will help it tremendously.  I'm thinking Mad Burger.  To be able to call in an order and pick it up about 30 minutes later is such a great option for dinners especially when getting off the hill and need to figure something easy out.  

So of all the new dining options, who is going to be serving breakfast?  I love Big Picture but another option would be great.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 16, 2018)

tumbler said:


> So of all the new dining options, who is going to be serving breakfast?  I love Big Picture but another option would be great.



Choices in that regard are certainly a bit lacking. I only eat breakfast out in the non-ski season when I'm up there though. I also wish the places that did have breakfast were open earlier. It would be nice to have a choice at 7AM other than Three Mountain Cafe.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 17, 2018)

Not to mention that when the Skinny Pancake is open, it's a virtual day care center.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 17, 2018)

The food & service at the Common Man before Adam & Lorien was always top notch.  So what came first, the decision to change the use of the property, or the decision to not reopen the restaurant?


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> The food & service at the Common Man before Adam & Lorien was always top notch.  So what came first, the decision to change the use of the property, or the decision to not reopen the restaurant?



Well they were trying to sell the business since winter 2016. 

So my take is the decision to change the use of the property was after the business itself wasn't selling and Adam and Lorien said they were done.

Technically according to the last article in the Valley Reporter the building itself wasn't owned by Adam and Lorien. The couple that did own it were supposedly business partners with them though, but not sure exactly how that partnership was structured and who had the money and was making the decisions.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 17, 2018)

Yes, saw that article, and was wondering if someone had the scoop.


----------



## Hawk (Aug 17, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> big fan of fit t b thaid.
> I disagree about the burger situation.  while its true u can get a burger anywhere, there really is a limited selection of places for reasonably priced bar food.  CR pub closes before dinner.  mad river barn is impossible to get into.  I like dinos place in sb village but that's really it.
> I have to go to too many fancy/expensive restaurants in my real world to have much of a desire for that up in the mrv.
> As far as diversity, I'd like to see a sushi place and vietnamese.


Hyde away served inexpensive bar food and has good burgers.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Yes, saw that article, and was wondering if someone had the scoop.



I'm curious too. I'm not particularly surprised they had no interest when trying to sell it though. The business was for sale for $195K plus $5K/month lease. I wish I could remember how much it was if you wanted to outright buy the whole building. I remember thinking the number was pretty crazy. I'm tempted to say close to $1M. In 2011 they paid a little under $600K for it. I'm guessing they tried to justify the price based on all the upgrades and brand new equipment they had put in the kitchen.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 17, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'm curious too. I'm not particularly surprised they had no interest when trying to sell it though. The business was for sale for $195K plus $5K/month lease. I wish I could remember how much it was if you wanted to outright buy the whole building. I remember thinking the number was pretty crazy. I'm tempted to say close to $1M. In 2011 they paid a little under $600K for it. I'm guessing they tried to justify the price based on all the upgrades and brand new equipment they had put in the kitchen.



Its just a shame to see it go.  Celebrated my sister's 40th birthday there years ago, and had the entire barn singing happy birthday to her.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Its just a shame to see it go.  Celebrated my sister's 40th birthday there years ago, and had the entire barn singing happy birthday to her.



Agreed. It was a really beautiful building with a unique vibe.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 17, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I heard as well that Adam will be taking over there as chef when I was up in the valley this weekend. On a related note, I still can't believe Common Man is becoming condos. That was such a beautiful building for a restaurant, although I can see why it is tough to have a successful restaurant in the non-winter in that location.


  So what does that mean for the Pitcher Inn's other chef, newly brought on in June 2018?  

https://www.pitcherinn.com/news/updates-to-our-dining-experience-pitcher-inn/


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> So what does that mean for the Pitcher Inn's other chef, newly brought on in June 2018?
> 
> https://www.pitcherinn.com/news/updates-to-our-dining-experience-pitcher-inn/



No idea what happened to him or where he's going, but he wasn't brought on as recently as that post makes it sound. Warren store mentioned him being the new chef back in December: 
https://www.warrenstore.com/news/delightful-december/


----------



## teleo (Aug 30, 2018)

Anyone else get a bunch of duplicate emails from sugarbush with subject of "We're glad to have you as part of our community"?  I've been getting almost every day for over a week now.


----------



## 1dog (Aug 30, 2018)

teleo said:


> Anyone else get a bunch of duplicate emails from sugarbush with subject of "We're glad to have you as part of our community"?  I've been getting almost every day for over a week now.



Got 2 in past week - only thing I've done outside the ordinary is post openings for our ski house. The posts have nothing to do with that subject, just like we're new here. But we're not. . .


----------



## cdskier (Aug 30, 2018)

teleo said:


> Anyone else get a bunch of duplicate emails from sugarbush with subject of "We're glad to have you as part of our community"?  I've been getting almost every day for over a week now.



Hmm...nope. I get Sugarbush e-mails on 3 different e-mail accounts and didn't get that one on any of them recently. I received one with that subject back in March on the one e-mail account associated with my Sugarbush online account that I used to purchase my season pass. That's it though.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 4, 2018)

updates from my week in Warren.
Mad burger is not taking over the purple moon/shepards pub location.  They are staying at hostel tavere.  went there and it was excellent.  Both food and the vibe.
pitcher inn is in transition mode while the new regime takes over.  only open weekends.
Paradise is upgraded with a glass wall although I didnt have a chance to go in.
construction going on at the old common man building.


----------



## Los (Sep 4, 2018)

off topic - I'm thinking about either volunteering or working at Sugarbush this season to help defray costs. If there's anyone who's done either and would be willing to PM me, I'd really appreciate it. Just have a couple questions... Thanks in advance!


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 20, 2018)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0

First day of Autumn is Saturday, so why not?


----------



## ducky (Oct 4, 2018)

New breakfast place Toast and Eggs opened today at the old Pizza in the Valley. You've all been asking for a breakfast place - here it is. Best of luck to the owners. I believe the hours are 7-2.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 4, 2018)

ducky said:


> New breakfast place Toast and Eggs opened today at the old Pizza in the Valley. You've all been asking for a breakfast place - here it is. Best of luck to the owners. I believe the hours are 7-2.



Of course a week after I'm up there! Based on what I saw last weekend, colors should be getting pretty close to near peak this coming one.


----------



## Glenn (Oct 5, 2018)

Great pics!


----------



## dustyroads (Oct 6, 2018)

*Groomers*

Win,
The groomers looked great lined up in the parking lot. You should keep them there all next summer.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 8, 2018)

ducky said:


> New breakfast place Toast and Eggs opened today at the old Pizza in the Valley. You've all been asking for a breakfast place - here it is. Best of luck to the owners. I believe the hours are 7-2.


What is the old Pizza in the valley?  Or Where is that?


----------



## cdskier (Oct 8, 2018)

Hawk said:


> What is the old Pizza in the valley?  Or Where is that?



Main St in Waitsfield just north of Big Picture Theater.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 8, 2018)

Not to be confused with Bongiorno's on Rt. 17.


----------



## ducky (Oct 8, 2018)

ducky said:


> New breakfast place Toast and Eggs opened today at the old Pizza in the Valley. You've all been asking for a breakfast place - here it is. Best of luck to the owners. I believe the hours are 7-2.



Hours supposedly 6-2, closed Tuesday.


----------



## ducky (Oct 8, 2018)

Nice dinner at Hyde Away last night. Solid food quality and service was attentive and professional with the owners and manager personally checking in with us. The young waiter was also quite competent. While the place was busy, we could still hear our conversation at our table off the bar area.

Good to hear Win's speech on Sat. Lots of new local things happening especially on the restaurant scene, a new Paradise market refresh, the Bundy Modern Gallery, Mad River Valley Chamber of Commerce plans, and Lawson's Taproom all adding to the Valley business vibe.

It may be the hardest part for these efforts is the lack of employees available. For the moment, Vermont is an aging state.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 8, 2018)

Did anyone attend Win's talk on Saturday?  Any big news/plans?


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 8, 2018)

In the current Valley Distorter:

https://www.valleyreporter.com/stories/12859-sugarbush-will-fight-14-story-tower-on-lincoln-peak


----------



## tumbler (Oct 8, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> In the current Valley Distorter:
> 
> https://www.valleyreporter.com/stories/12859-sugarbush-will-fight-14-story-tower-on-lincoln-peak



I saw that and read the article.  That would suck if it went through.  If they are going to put a 140' tower on the summit, I would rather see a wind turbine generating power and put the cell antennas on it.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 8, 2018)

I went to the meeting.  It was pretty good.  We got the usual facts and figures.  Win talk about how surprised they were at the end of last year when the skiing numbers actual were up.  If you remember they got crushed by rain and really bitter cold during MLK and things did not look good for the year.  I think everybody did the wait and see and came late.

They talk about this years improvements which were mostly cosmetic.  You know new carpet, new roof.  They did rebuild the North Linx drive and electronics so that lift should be better this year.  They also changed the shark pool to a salt water pool and added a outdoor hot tub.  The other big change is that the entire base area is now smoke free.  He said "no tobacco, no cannabis, no Vape".  Doesn't affect me but I am sure some will bitch.

The last 45 minutes was a bunch of people from Sugarbush's past telling stories.  I believe it was Sparky Potter, Chan Weller, John Egan and Jack Murphy’s Kids: Mike, Kelly & Casey.  It was to kick off the celebration of the 60th year in operation.  Win hosted and asked questions and stories followed.  I liked the stories about the old Wunderbar down stairs and how they used to rage.  I also like the story of how they landed a plane on snowball at the top of Spring Fling as a total gag.  Wild.  I enjoyed the nostalgia.  Wish I was there then.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 8, 2018)

I see they're going the Bicknell's Thrush route.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see they're going the Bicknell's Thrush route.



I saw that too.  :lol:

I somewhat understand the concern, but there are two points that make me go :???:  First, the photo in the article makes it look like the new tower will not be much higher than those on the summit already.  It probably is an optical illusion, but one tower as opposed to two or three sounds good to me.  Second, as much as I love Sugarbush, it seems to be ironic that a resort is upset about mountain development.  Sometimes you have to pick your battles wisely.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 9, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The other big change is that the entire base area is now smoke free.  He said "no tobacco, no cannabis, no Vape".


  What about the fire pit?


----------



## jaybird (Oct 9, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> In the current Valley Distorter:
> 
> https://www.valleyreporter.com/stories/12859-sugarbush-will-fight-14-story-tower-on-lincoln-peak



Lincoln Peak is an important relay for communications throughout the region.
If the artist rendering is accurate, consolidating everything to a single tower may be a better look.
It's not like there's no apparatus already up there.

Think Snowmaking !


----------



## cdskier (Oct 9, 2018)

jaybird said:


> Lincoln Peak is an important relay for communications throughout the region.
> If the artist rendering is accurate, consolidating everything to a single tower may be a better look.
> It's not like there's no apparatus already up there.
> 
> Think Snowmaking !



I'd like to see a real rendering before coming to any conclusions. The one in that article is from a weird angle and shows only a flag representing the height of the tower, not what the actual tower would look like.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 9, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'd like to see a real rendering before coming to any conclusions. The one in that article is from a weird angle and shows only a flag representing the height of the tower, not what the actual tower would look like.


 +1


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'd like to see a real rendering before coming to any conclusions. The one in that article is from a weird angle and shows only a flag representing the height of the tower, not what the actual tower would look like.



Agreed.  I don't think that the photo gives an accurate representation of what they are working with.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see they're going the Bicknell's Thrush route.


With all the ski area development that mythical bird has halted, it's some serious bad juju for Sugarbush to point to the Bicknells Thrush as a reason to halt development of the tower.   

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> *With all the ski area development that mythical bird has halted, it's some serious bad juju for Sugarbush to point to the Bicknells Thrush as a reason to halt development of the tower.   *



Yes. Bogus use of wildlife protections should be frowned upon, regardless of which side employs the tactic.

  There are plenty of species that greatly benefit from the legitimate use of protection acts for species, but when employed wantonly, greedily, or politically, it actually harms the very species that desperately need the benefit of this regulation in a, _The Boy Who Cried Wolf_ fashion.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> With all the ski area development that mythical bird has halted, it's some serious bad juju for Sugarbush to point to the Bicknells Thrush as a reason to halt development of the tower.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


  Seriously?  I disagree & say use it to your advantage- its far from a "bogus use of wildlife protections" (as any Bicknells Thrush google search will show you its range covers a good deal of VT).  Use it, and if the tower still gets built anyway, then there's your justification for future ski area expansion (not that Sugarbush needs it).


----------



## tumbler (Oct 9, 2018)

The rendering is totally bogus and misleading.  They are making it look like the 20-30' tower that is there now in foreground is the same height as the new 140' one.  Thing was drawn by a 1st grader and should be on engineered stamped drawings.  

As for the bird- agreed it feels like bad juju but it already has stopped and is stopping Bush from doing certain things so why not use it against someone else for something no one wants.  

Does Mansfield have antenna towers on top?  What do other ski areas have? 

I think this will be fought by many towns and entities- it smacks in the face of protecting the ridgelines and environment.  I remember being told stories from the Bush way oldtimers about people in Lincoln shooting out the windows of the gondola top terminal because they hated seeing the lights at night.  That went all the way to the summit, the top of HG is lower.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 9, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The other big change is that the entire base area is now smoke free.  He said "no tobacco, no cannabis, no Vape".  Doesn't affect me but I am sure some will bitch.



Seriously?  That sounds like a bit much without having a designated area to smoke.  What are all the employees going to do since I would guess about 75% of them smoke cigs, not to mention other stuff.  Doesn't affect me either but doesn't go with the laid back atmosphere they are trying to have.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 9, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Does Mansfield have antenna towers on top?  What do other ski areas have?



Here's a few of the ones on the Nose. There are others as well in other spots on Mansfield. Note that they are set back and down a bit on the western side of the ridge it looks like which probably makes them not quite as visible from the eastern side of the ridge.


But again, like you said, a real rendering is needed to see what the Lincoln Peak one would look like.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2018)

Mansfield has a crap load of towers on the nose and if I recall correctly a couple more on the middle of the ridge.  



Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## bdfreetuna (Oct 9, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> What about the fire pit?



I don't think a No-Vape rule is even enforceable on a reasonable basis. Although it's common courtesy to do so out of view of children and random families.

In fact all these rules are un-enforceable but I'm sure one or two employees will take it to heart.

Kind of like "tobacco-free zones" that include chew tobacco and dip.

At least we know gummies, cookies, lollipops and straight up eating distillate are acceptable.

I say if someone can huff a cigarette and still ski and not decide to quite either skiing or smoking, more power to them.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 9, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Seriously?  That sounds like a bit much without having a designated area to smoke.  What are all the employees going to do since I would guess about 75% of them smoke cigs, not to mention other stuff.  Doesn't affect me either but doesn't go with the laid back atmosphere they are trying to have.



You are way off assuming 75% of employees smoke cigarettes. My guess is the number is closer to 10% as as only about 15% of the population in VT smoke cigs.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Oct 9, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> You are way off assuming 75% of employees smoke cigarettes.



We're talking Vermont so I assume everyone has moved on to dabbing extracts of Nicotiana rustica by now.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 9, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> You are way off assuming 75% of employees smoke cigarettes. My guess is the number is closer to 10% as as only about 15% of the population in VT smoke cigs.



the employees have a designated smoking area hidden in the corner of the parking lot by the entrance to the claybrook road.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 9, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> * its far from a "bogus use of wildlife protections" (as any Bicknells Thrush google search will show you its range covers a good deal of VT).*



Hence why it is, in fact, bogus.  

And it's not just Vermont, the bird exists in the high country of New York, New Hampshire, Maine, New Brunswick, Quebec, etc....  

Not to mention the bird isn't classified as endangered or even as threatened, but merely vulnerable.  And not that it's classification should matter in the least bit from a ski resort perspective anyway, given the presence of skiers wont bother a bird that *winters* in Cuba, Haiti, and Jamaica.  Now you've got me all wound up, happy?


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 9, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> the employees have a designated smoking area hidden in the corner of the parking lot by the entrance to the claybrook road.



That would be one helluva crowded place if 75% of the employees smoked.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 9, 2018)

Yes, its range is the entire northern east coast, but this is the Sugarbush thread, not the Entire East Coast Thread.  And really who cares if its reference could mean one less mountaintop eyesore.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2018)

everybody wants great cell coverage but no one wants a cell tower. Or at least "not in my back yard"


----------



## bdfreetuna (Oct 9, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> everybody wants great cell coverage but no one wants a cell tower. Or at least "not in my back yard"



fortunately there exists a perfect solution..


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 9, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> fortunately there exists a perfect solution..
> 
> View attachment 24060



I know a guy who used to install those, he said they're *WAY more expensive* than a normal cell tower.  That's a pretty crappy one too, they make them with longer "branches" that look even better than that.  I do agree it helps blend a bit though.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 10, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know a guy who used to install those, he said they're *WAY more expensive* than a normal cell tower.  That's a pretty crappy one too, they make them with longer "branches" that look even better than that.  I do agree it helps blend a bit though.



Not when they are 100' higher than anything else around it.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 10, 2018)

Even when they're only a few feet higher than their surroundings, they're still an eyesore.


----------



## rtjcbrown (Oct 10, 2018)

https://youtu.be/EfIeOZAumvk


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Not when they are 100' higher than anything else around it.


It's a new species.  The Verizon Sequoia

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Edd (Oct 10, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Not when they are 100' higher than anything else around it.





ThinkSnow said:


> Even when they're only a few feet higher than their surroundings, they're still an eyesore.



It’s a step in the right direction, at least.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 10, 2018)

It would be nice if they could pile on the one that was installed on the ridge to lookers right of Slide Brook and make it work there.

If on the summit, if it was down on the western slope in elevation that would help. My guess is that they are more interested in the Champlain Valley side of the ridge line for cell service.  I know WDEV radio is up there now.  If more things at the summit then probably more power will need to be run up there.  Would be nice if the power lines going from base to bottom of HG could be buried.  From base of HG they run up Ripcord.  

At Mt Ellen the top terminal of Northridge has a bunch of cell antennas on it.

I think WCAX and other TV is on top of Mansfield.


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 10, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Mansfield has a crap load of towers on the nose and if I recall correctly a couple more on the middle of the ridge.
> 
> View attachment 24059
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app





Sectional Charts needs an Update ! Only shows one 300 footer , from the angle it looks like the other three are higher than the summit.


----------



## machski (Oct 10, 2018)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> View attachment 24063
> 
> Sectional Charts needs an Update ! Only shows one 300 footer , from the angle it looks like the other three are higher than the summit.


The towers are on the nose, yes?  The nose is much lower than the true Summit above the Gondi.  Don't worry, Stowe is away from the approach track for 33 at BTV.  Camel's Hump is of much greater concern for pilots, especially in cold weather.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 10, 2018)

machski said:


> Camel's Hump is of much greater concern for pilots, especially in cold weather.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



"Concern" From? CAT with a strong west wind?

Speaking of CAT it's been a busy few days at the Glider pilots  Wave camp in Gohram with somebody making it to 32,000ft 

http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=247536
Not Perlan worthy but still cool .

With more than one tower I was expecting to see a group obstruction symbol on the chart . I guess they just picked the tallest one? So none of the towers are above the summit elevation ?


----------



## machski (Oct 10, 2018)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> "Concern" From? CAT with a strong west wind?
> 
> Speaking of CAT it's been a busy few days at the Glider pilots  Wave camp in Gohram with somebody making it to 32,000ft
> 
> ...


I do not believe so.  Yes, in close enough proximity, only the tallest tower need be depicted.  I am not sure what the lateral spread is before multiple are depicted but the ones on Mansfield are in close proximity.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## nhskier1969 (Oct 11, 2018)

skimrv site is back up and running


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 17, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> skimrv site is back up and running



I'd rather Win keep posting on here...


----------



## ThinkSnow (Oct 17, 2018)

I like the SKIMRV site, but its now been so long, I can't remember my log-in info.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 17, 2018)

I still get blocked for phishing- i turn off my wifi then it works.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 18, 2018)

From Win: Not starting snowmaking until Nov 1 (no surprise), mountain not set up with guns and hoses yet.  Opening day Nov 17.


----------



## southvillager (Oct 19, 2018)

Nov 17 seems late. Killington and Sunday River opened for skiing today. Mt Snow has "138 guns going".  But Stowe opens Nov 17.


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## bigbog (Oct 19, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> I like the SKIMRV site, but its now been so long, I can't remember my log-in info.



You should create bookmarked logins, most all browsers now have a functioning password manager.


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## slatham (Oct 19, 2018)

southvillager said:


> Nov 17 seems late. Killington and Sunday River opened for skiing today. Mt Snow has "138 guns going".  But Stowe opens Nov 17.



I disagree. The last few/several years they have been clear that snowmaking starts Nov1 or as soon thereafter as weather permits, with a target opening of the weekend before Thanksgiving. Actually this year is a bit early since Thanksgiving is as early as it can be. Of course if conditions permit they will open earlier. Lets hope the cold holds.


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## IceEidolon (Oct 19, 2018)

November one may well be part of their power bill - on some billing structures, there's a demand charge based on the max amount of power used at any one time of that month. Running for 30 October hours could well cost an extra $60,000 or more. Plus a conservative opening date mitigates the blow-melt-blow-melt cycle of early base building somewhat and gives their Ops staff a much more predictable target to be ready by.

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 20, 2018)

bigbog said:


> You should create bookmarked logins, most all browsers now have a functioning password manager.



Yes, I realize that- but the last time I was able to log onto SKIMRV, was on my old computer.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 20, 2018)

Nevermind- found it!


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2018)

slatham said:


> I disagree. The last few/several years they have been clear that snowmaking starts Nov1 or as soon thereafter as weather permits, with a target opening of the weekend before Thanksgiving. Actually this year is a bit early since Thanksgiving is as early as it can be. Of course if conditions permit they will open earlier. Lets hope the cold holds.



Yup.  November 1st for start of snowmaking is what they have been doing for the last 10 or so years.  I gave up long ago wanting them to start earlier and open earlier.  I now bring all my stuff home at the end of the season and have it ready for early season.  I did ski Sunday River this weekend.  Saturday was sunny with temps in the 50's.  It was soft and bumpy and we basically skied right onto the lift. Absolutely a perfect day for day one.  Good friends, good snow, Sunny warm days and no one there.  I heard that Killington had a big line with tons of people.  I think my choice was a better one then going to K.8)


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## bumpcrasher (Oct 22, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Yup.  November 1st for start of snowmaking is what they have been doing for the last 10 or so years.  I gave up long ago wanting them to start earlier and open earlier.  I now bring all my stuff home at the end of the season and have it ready for early season.  I did ski Sunday River this weekend.  Saturday was sunny with temps in the 50's.  It was soft and bumpy and we basically skied right onto the lift. Absolutely a perfect day for day one.  Good friends, good snow, Sunny warm days and no one there.  I heard that Killington had a big line with tons of people.  I think my choice was a better one then going to K.8)



I am fine with the Bush not being in the early season game.  Even if we did open early, I don't think there would be enough people to justify it.  

And Hawk, there was a surprisingly LOW turnout at Killington both days (never got over like 1-2 minutes long).  Maybe Friday was crowded??  Still plenty of people to keep you "entertained" from the lift!!


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## tumbler (Oct 22, 2018)

It's pretty early for skiing, most flat landers have not turned their attention there yet.  Still lots to do before getting to winter, kids crap, yard work, etc.  Soon....


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## HowieT2 (Oct 22, 2018)

more importantly, Lawson's opened.  anyone been?


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2018)

bumpcrasher said:


> I am fine with the Bush not being in the early season game.  Even if we did open early, I don't think there would be enough people to justify it.
> 
> And Hawk, there was a surprisingly LOW turnout at Killington both days (never got over like 1-2 minutes long).  Maybe Friday was crowded??  Still plenty of people to keep you "entertained" from the lift!!



Really?  Huh....  I guess it might have been Friday or maybe it was some of that "fake news". I guess you can't trust second hand reporting.  If that was the case then I am sure it was good.  It was all the usual suspects at Sunday River.


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> more importantly, Lawson's opened.  anyone been?



Wasn't it a soft opening with invited guests this weekend?  I didn't think it was opening for a few weeks.  Ya, I would be interested to hear the reports if it did open.


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## WJenness (Oct 22, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Wasn't it a soft opening with invited guests this weekend?  I didn't think it was opening for a few weeks.  Ya, I would be interested to hear the reports if it did open.



Official opening today.


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## slatham (Oct 22, 2018)

WJenness said:


> Official opening today.



Saturday was general public.


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## WJenness (Oct 22, 2018)

slatham said:


> Saturday was general public.



Ok...

I was just going by their website:


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## mtl1076 (Oct 22, 2018)

slatham said:


> Saturday was general public.



no it wasn't. Last Thursday was locals day, Friday brewers day.  Definitely no public Saturday/Sunday but they might have had a private showing type thing.  Today is first official open to general public day.  

The place is pretty amazing and the beers are phenomenal.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 22, 2018)

Looking forward to going


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 23, 2018)

Anyone know when the cams at Sugarbush will be live?


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## cdskier (Oct 23, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Anyone know when the cams at Sugarbush will be live?



Which ones? The Lincoln Peak Courtyard, Valley House Quad, and Summit Snow Stake cams are all live. The other lift-specific ones usually go live only once those particular lifts are open for the season (or at least closer to that point).


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 23, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Which ones? The Lincoln Peak Courtyard, Valley House Quad, and Summit Snow Stake cams are all live. The other lift-specific ones usually go live only once those particular lifts are open for the season (or at least closer to that point).



It won't load on my mac.  I never had issues with it before.  I just assumed that they took them down this summer and never put them back live.


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## cdskier (Oct 23, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> It won't load on my mac.  I never had issues with it before.  I just assumed that they took them down this summer and never put them back live.



Strange...working fine on my PC in both Chrome and Firefox.


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## ducky (Oct 27, 2018)

Snowing!


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## slatham (Oct 27, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> It won't load on my mac.  I never had issues with it before.  I just assumed that they took them down this summer and never put them back live.



It takes a long time to load on my MAC but eventually it does. No live stream though....

The golf course driving range cam showed snow and people hitting golf balls?


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## tumbler (Oct 31, 2018)

So all along it been a Nov 1 snowmaking start to hit opening the 17th but yesterday's snow report is now saying a Nov 6th start.  Temps don't look great, I just don't like it when the ball moves.

I'm hoping for a big cold snap again like last year where they were able to cover snowball->spring fling and open valley house.

Let the annual snowmaking b*tch session begin!  :beer:


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## skiur (Oct 31, 2018)

tumbler said:


> So all along it been a Nov 1 snowmaking start to hit opening the 17th but yesterday's snow report is now saying a Nov 6th start.  Temps don't look great, I just don't like it when the ball moves.
> 
> I'm hoping for a big cold snap again like last year where they were able to cover snowball->spring fling and open valley house.
> 
> Let the annual snowmaking b*tch session begin!  :beer:



Be kinda hard to start making snow tomorrow when it's going to be in the 40s and raining.  Sugarbush didn't move the ball, mother nature did.


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## Hawk (Nov 1, 2018)

It's going to be pushed out even more if you look at the long range.  I'm peronally not worried about it.  Been skiing at Sunday River and will continue to do so until the weather turns.  Sugarbush is not about snowmaking.  They never have been and I am finally embracing that.  ;-)


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## HowieT2 (Nov 1, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It's going to be pushed out even more if you look at the long range.  I'm peronally not worried about it.  Been skiing at Sunday River and will continue to do so until the weather turns.  Sugarbush is not about snowmaking.  They never have been and I am finally embracing that.  ;-)



Looking like upwards of 4" of rain between now and tuesday.  Pond should be full when the temps get right.


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## Hawk (Nov 1, 2018)

That's it Howie.  Good glass half full.  Or pond that is.....


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## slatham (Nov 1, 2018)

Looks more like the 8th for high elevations temps and not until the 10th further down.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 1, 2018)

Hawk said:


> That's it Howie.  Good glass half full.  Or pond that is.....



pool or the pond.  pond is good for you.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2018)

I just heard that Shawn at Castlerock is leaving to go to Worthy Burger.  That is bad as the bar was already slow.  I wonder who will replace him. I wish him well and I hope it is not a bad decision for him.  Restaurants in that location have always not lasted very long.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 9, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I just heard that Shawn at Castlerock is leaving to go to Worthy Burger.  That is bad as the bar was already slow.  I wonder who will replace him. I wish him well and I hope it is not a bad decision for him.  Restaurants in that location have always not lasted very long.



That is a cursed location although the prior offerings there left much to be desired.  Hopefully worthy burger can make a go of it.
Don't know that Shawn had much of a choice since they've been closing the crp in favor of timbers/rumbles kitchen during off peak hours.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> That is a cursed location although the prior offerings there left much to be desired.  Hopefully worthy burger can make a go of it.
> Don't know that Shawn had much of a choice since they've been closing the crp in favor of timbers/rumbles kitchen during off peak hours.


I don't think this year will be any different then any other year for Shawn.  I talked to him a few weeks ago about work this year and he did not show any signs of leaving Sugarbush.  I will be us soon and will get the scoop.


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## WinS (Nov 9, 2018)

I guess it is time to return to this blog.  Hope everyone had a nice summer.  We had a dry summer and the rivers were low going into November, but the recent rains have them flowing well now.  We extracted gravel yesterday and finishing today in order to put in the weir to allow water to flow into our snowmaking pond which was full after the rain.  We have been making snow on Upper Organgrinder and Jester and Downspout as that is where temperatures allowed. We will be out of snowmaking later today as it warm up even at the summits, but then late tomorrow the temperatures are forecasted to be coming down and allow for snowmaking down low for a  few days at least, so we will shift the attention to Upper Snowball and Spring Fling with the goal of having those for opening day just as we did last year.  It made for a much better early experience than having heavy traffic on Downspout. See you all soon.


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## tumbler (Nov 9, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> That is a cursed location although the prior offerings there left much to be desired.  Hopefully worthy burger can make a go of it.
> Don't know that Shawn had much of a choice since they've been closing the crp in favor of timbers/rumbles kitchen during off peak hours.



I would think Worthy will make it there. Established brand that people will drive a distance to get to.  Maybe kinda like Pro Pig.  I just hope they can have good service and turn over tables, not the 2 hour shit show waiting to order on a Saturday night that some places have. 

I honestly found Shawn the reason for the slowness of the bar.  Would look right past people instead of helping them and slinging drinks.  Get less taps and more cans/bottles.  I think they can find another bartender or two to work there.


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## tumbler (Nov 9, 2018)

WinS said:


> I guess it is time to return to this blog.  Hope everyone had a nice summer.  We had a dry summer and the rivers were low going into November, but the recent rains have them flowing well now.  We extracted gravel yesterday and finishing today in order to put in the weir to allow water to flow into our snowmaking pond which was full after the rain.  We have been making snow on Upper Organgrinder and Jester and Downspout as that is where temperatures allowed. We will be out of snowmaking later today as it warm up even at the summits, but then late tomorrow the temperatures are forecasted to be coming down and allow for snowmaking down low for a  few days at least, so we will shift the attention to Upper Snowball and Spring Fling with the goal of having those for opening day just as we did last year.  It made for a much better early experience than having heavy traffic on Downspout. See you all soon.



Welcome back and thanks for the update.  Temps look very cold heading to Wednesday so hopefully Snowball->Fling can work out.  I did enjoy that as the opening runs.  Would be nice to get Lower Downspout- Lower Jester -Coffee run also so no downloading when Jester-Grinder open.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I would think Worthy will make it there. Established brand that people will drive a distance to get to.  Maybe kinda like Pro Pig.  I just hope they can have good service and turn over tables, not the 2 hour shit show waiting to order on a Saturday night that some places have.
> 
> I honestly found Shawn the reason for the slowness of the bar.  Would look right past people instead of helping them and slinging drinks.  Get less taps and more cans/bottles.  I think they can find another bartender or two to work there.


I think this is not accurate.  I never had any issues with Shawn and always got my drink.  The bar was not slow because of him, it was slow because there were not enough bar tenders which is not his fault.


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## cdskier (Nov 9, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I would think Worthy will make it there. Established brand that people will drive a distance to get to.  Maybe kinda like Pro Pig.  I just hope they can have good service and turn over tables, not the 2 hour shit show waiting to order on a Saturday night that some places have.



I'm not sure how much "established brand" matters for the MRV area, nevermind that particular spot in the MRV. Maybe I'll be blown away when I go there, but the menu I saw was not anything that amazing and actually surprised me on how limited it is. 



Hawk said:


> I think this is not accurate.  I never had any issues with Shawn and always got my drink.  The bar was not slow because of him, it was slow because there were not enough bar tenders which is not his fault.



I'd agree with Hawk here. I never had a problem with Shawn getting me drinks in a timely manner whenever I was there.

Also welcome back to Win! Looking forward to the start of the season although I doubt I'll make it up until December.


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## WinS (Nov 10, 2018)

I have not yet been to Worthy but look forward to going soon. The Valley needs more restaurants especially in the winter on weekends and holidays. It is great to see Worthy opening their second restaurant here, and Sage opening in the former Egan’s spot and Avalanche opening in the old Tera Rosa locationon the Access Road featuring pizza and Italian. Richie, who paid pizza for us the in Gatehouse the last few years, is the chef there. I always really liked what he made. I believe they are doing takeout too. Paradise Deli is now Paradise provision and Ashley Woods who formerly managed the East Warren Store and Home Plate is the manager. The ambience is greatly improved as is the food. They have more and better dry goods and a much greater selection of wine and beer. Whether or not they appeal to everyone they are all great additions to the Valley. And of course wonderful see Lawson’s open. I have been there twice after the official opening and it was rocking. It looks like it is attracting both locals as well as people driving in for a beer.  Their hours are 12-7pm. 
At Sugarbush we are still looking for Snowmakers, lift operators, experienced line chefs and housekeepers so pass the word to anyone looking to work and enjoy a winter of skiing or snowboarding.
We did get a good 6-7” of wet snow. Temps are coming down so we will be moving low later today. We might have a warm-up on Monday but Tuesday on looks cold at this point.


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## WinS (Nov 10, 2018)

southvillager said:


> Nov 17 seems late. Killington and Sunday River opened for skiing today. Mt Snow has "138 guns going".  But Stowe opens Nov 17.



Our plan has been to try to open the weekend before Thanksgiving. That is how we plan and staff,  and this year Thanksgiving is about as early as it can be.


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## AbominableSnowman (Nov 11, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I think this is not accurate.  I never had any issues with Shawn and always got my drink.  The bar was not slow because of him, it was slow because there were not enough bar tenders which is not his fault.



That is a true shame - Shawn, Rich and the wait-staff seemed to be the only things that gave that soulless dungeon any semblance of "life" and spirit (no pun intended).

The layout of the bar and the seeming ignorance of [some of] the patrons seemed to be far larger contributors to slow service than any of the staff.  People standing in spots that obstructed the movement of the waitresses and failing to move out of the way was common, and the location of the support posts and the shape of the bar also made it difficult to move out of the way and let other patrons advance to the bar.

Plus some of the regulars were not very courteous.  I recall one day that a guy they were calling "Goop" or "Poop" or something along those lines was regularly shoving his way in front of other people waiting at the bar, and then somewhat arrogantly telling them that they "need to be more aggressive" at the bar, on a particularly busy day.   To their credit, Shawn and Rich would apologize to the people for that one offender's behavior, and then would immediately serve everyone that the rude guy had cut in front of.

I think the Castlerock Pub will really miss Shawn.  Good for the Worthy Burger, though.


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## El Bishop (Nov 12, 2018)

WinS said:


> Our plan has been to try to open the weekend before Thanksgiving. That is how we plan and staff,  and this year Thanksgiving is about as early as it can be.



 - Win, does that mean it's looking like the 17th will not be opening day this year?


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## Los (Nov 12, 2018)

El Bishop said:


> - Win, does that mean it's looking like the 17th will not be opening day this year?



That was my question too... 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Nov 12, 2018)

I don't see anything in what Win said that would imply they won't hit their projected target of this weekend. He was responding to a comment from someone questioning that the 17th seemed late by saying it is in line with their usual planned target based on when Thanksgiving falls.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 12, 2018)

WinS said:


> I have not yet been to Worthy but look forward to going soon. The Valley needs more restaurants especially in the winter on weekends and holidays. It is great to see Worthy opening their second restaurant here, and Sage opening in the former Egan’s spot and Avalanche opening in the old Tera Rosa locationon the Access Road featuring pizza and Italian. Richie, who paid pizza for us the in Gatehouse the last few years, is the chef there. I always really liked what he made. I believe they are doing takeout too. Paradise Deli is now Paradise provision and Ashley Woods who formerly managed the East Warren Store and Home Plate is the manager. The ambience is greatly improved as is the food. They have more and better dry goods and a much greater selection of wine and beer. Whether or not they appeal to everyone they are all great additions to the Valley. And of course wonderful see Lawson’s open. I have been there twice after the official opening and it was rocking. It looks like it is attracting both locals as well as people driving in for a beer.  Their hours are 12-7pm.
> At Sugarbush we are still looking for Snowmakers, lift operators, experienced line chefs and housekeepers so pass the word to anyone looking to work and enjoy a winter of skiing or snowboarding.
> We did get a good 6-7” of wet snow. Temps are coming down so we will be moving low later today. We might have a warm-up on Monday but Tuesday on looks cold at this point.



I'm psyched for paradise 2.0.  it hadnt been the same since the managerial change some years ago.  also, anything should be better than the old terrible rosa.


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## Los (Nov 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I don't see anything in what Win said that would imply they won't hit their projected target of this weekend. He was responding to a comment from someone questioning that the 17th seemed late by saying it is in line with their usual planned target based on when Thanksgiving falls.



Whew! My kids would’ve rioted and burned my house down. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Nov 12, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm psyched for paradise 2.0.  it hadnt been the same since the managerial change some years ago.  also, anything should be better than the old terrible rosa.



Yea, I need to check out the new Paradise. Also looking forward to checking out Avalanche and Sage for some good non-pub food options. Worthy is probably the one I'm least looking forward to (but will definitely still be checking out) only because I feel we have so many burger options now that I worry they won't be able to set themselves apart (I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head in the MRV now). With the way people are hyping them up, I'm really expecting to be blown away somehow when I taste their burgers. Now I'm craving a burger at 10:30 in the morning in the office as I type this.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yea, I need to check out the new Paradise. Also looking forward to checking out Avalanche and Sage for some good non-pub food options. Worthy is probably the one I'm least looking forward to (but will definitely still be checking out) only because I feel we have so many burger options now that I worry they won't be able to set themselves apart (I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head in the MRV now). With the way people are hyping them up, I'm really expecting to be blown away somehow when I taste their burgers. Now I'm craving a burger at 10:30 in the morning in the office as I type this.



Worthy Burger is really good...we have been to South Royalton many times and now we can go in the MRV.  My observation is that it is a great burger place with an awesome beer selection and much more of a food focus than a drinking crowd.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 12, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yea, I need to check out the new Paradise. Also looking forward to checking out Avalanche and Sage for some good non-pub food options. Worthy is probably the one I'm least looking forward to (but will definitely still be checking out) only because I feel we have so many burger options now that I worry they won't be able to set themselves apart (I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head in the MRV now). With the way people are hyping them up, I'm really expecting to be blown away somehow when I taste their burgers. Now I'm craving a burger at 10:30 in the morning in the office as I type this.



burgers r good.  now I'm getting hungry.


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 13, 2018)

Over the weekend I was at Worthy in S.Royalton, and then later to Worthy2 in Waitsfield.  Food was very comparable- (had the Worthy burger at each location) with small menu differences (Salmon in Waitsfield vs Tuna in S.Royalton).  Waitsfield Beer selection was not huge, but still good.  Everyone behind the bar was very busy (including Shawn), and there was frequently a long line for people ordering food who were not sitting at the bar.  The biggest difference between the two locations is that Waitsfield is in desperate need of atmosphere.  Right now it’s just a big rectangular space, with a closed off kitchen.

Paradise Provisions was a nicely cleaned up version of the Paradise Deli.  The glass in the storefront was always there, but now it has been cleaned up, and there’s a counter inside which makes it look like a café.  It is looking very spacious; however they will need to get a lot more “provisions” in the store come ski season to keep up with demand.

Highlight of the weekend was going to Lawsons.  Absolutely beautiful tasting room.  Apparently the space only allows a limited number of people (due to fire codes), so groups of people were being let in, as others left with their canned goods.


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## rocks860 (Nov 13, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Over the weekend I was at Worthy in S.Royalton, and then later to Worthy2 in Waitsfield.  Food was very comparable- (had the Worthy burger at each location) with small menu differences (Salmon in Waitsfield vs Tuna in S.Royalton).  Waitsfield Beer selection was not huge, but still good.  Everyone behind the bar was very busy (including Shawn), and there was frequently a long line for people ordering food who were not sitting at the bar.  The biggest difference between the two locations is that Waitsfield is in desperate need of atmosphere.  Right now it’s just a big rectangular space, with a closed off kitchen.
> 
> Paradise Provisions was a nicely cleaned up version of the Paradise Deli.  The glass in the storefront was always there, but now it has been cleaned up, and there’s a counter inside which makes it look like a café.  It is looking very spacious; however they will need to get a lot more “provisions” in the store come ski season to keep up with demand.
> 
> Highlight of the weekend was going to Lawsons.  Absolutely beautiful tasting room.  Apparently the space only allows a limited number of people (due to fire codes), so groups of people were being let in, as others left with their canned goods.



I will definitely be checking out all 3 when I’m up there in January... and going to peasant again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2018)

rocks860 said:


> I will definitely be checking out all 3 when I’m up there in January... and going to peasant again



I'm hoping to check some of these new places out in December when I'm up there...(and Peasant goes without saying of course).

Anyone know when Sage is supposed to open? As far as I can tell from their online presence they aren't open yet but say they are still on schedule.


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 13, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Anyone know when Sage is supposed to open? As far as I can tell from their online presence they aren't open yet but say they are still on schedule.



One of the owners was at the bar when I stopped at the Hyde Away to grab a beer & some wings.  I heard her mention the restaurant, but she left before I could ask how things were going.


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2018)

AbominableSnowman said:


> That is a true shame - Shawn, Rich and the wait-staff seemed to be the only things that gave that soulless dungeon any semblance of "life" and spirit (no pun intended).
> 
> The layout of the bar and the seeming ignorance of [some of] the patrons seemed to be far larger contributors to slow service than any of the staff.  People standing in spots that obstructed the movement of the waitresses and failing to move out of the way was common, and the location of the support posts and the shape of the bar also made it difficult to move out of the way and let other patrons advance to the bar.
> 
> ...



Shawn was with us over two decades. He resigned to pursue some other things, and we wish him all the best. We have a great new Head Bartender, Nina, and the rest of the staff will be back. CRP will open this weekend.


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2018)

We will not be opening this Saturday as planned!............................Instead, we will open on Friday, 11/16 for all passholders and then on Saturday for everyone. On Friday, we will run the Valley lift and have skiing and riding on Upper Snowball and Spring Fling just like last year. As we will be blowing right through tomorrow we will not groom so it is for advanced skiing only Friday. On Saturday, we potentially could have more upper mountain terrain ready to go and we have been blowing on Valley Traverse to make it top to bottom hopefully. Will update more tomorrow. I plan to catch first chair on Friday and hope to see a lot of you here this weekend. CRP and Gatehouse cafeteria are what will be open during the day as well as Rumble’s for breakfast and dinner.


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 14, 2018)

NICE!!


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## 180 (Nov 14, 2018)

you mean 11/16?


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2018)

180 said:


> you mean 11/16?



And Valley House.  Must have been too excited when typing.  Wish I could be there this weekend but got to wrap up the chores before the season starts and everything gets neglected for 5 months.


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## Zand (Nov 14, 2018)

I was gonna say...that post seems quite upbeat if he really means they're delaying opening by 9 days and only the Village Lift will be available


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2018)

180 said:


> you mean 11/16?


Oops.  Yes!!!! To both. Was dashing to the airport to get home. Just edited the post!


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2018)

Very nice for those that can take advantage! Like tumbler I have things to finish up here at home before I can get my season started.


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## crazy (Nov 14, 2018)

Win, I love that you are contributing to this thread! I've only skied at Sugarbush once before, but now that I have the Ikon pass I am definitely going to take advantage of the Sugarbush days 8) hopefully with some friends.


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## slatham (Nov 14, 2018)

WinS said:


> We will not be opening this Saturday as planned!............................Instead, we will open on Friday, 11/16 for all passholders and then on Saturday for everyone. On Friday, we will run the Valley lift and have skiing and riding on Upper Snowball and Spring Fling just like last year. As we will be blowing right through tomorrow we will not groom so it is for advanced skiing only Friday. On Saturday, we potentially could have more upper mountain terrain ready to go and we have been blowing on Valley Traverse to make it top to bottom hopefully. Will update more tomorrow. I plan to catch first chair on Friday and hope to see a lot of you here this weekend. CRP and Gatehouse cafeteria are what will be open during the day as well as Rumble’s for breakfast and dinner.



It’s great that you got the temps and snow to do this, and of course the “lets ski” attitude!


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## WinS (Nov 15, 2018)

The 60th begins!


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## WinS (Nov 15, 2018)

crazy said:


> Win, I love that you are contributing to this thread! I've only skied at Sugarbush once before, but now that I have the Ikon pass I am definitely going to take advantage of the Sugarbush days 8) hopefully with some friends.



We look forward to seeing you and your friends.


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## rtjcbrown (Nov 16, 2018)

A question for Win: Is there a project that was proposed, but never completed, that you wish had been done? This can be anything over the previous 60 years that never was done, whether it be because of permitting, finances, poor management, or any other reason.
I would have loved to see the Slide Brook master plan from late 70s come to fruition, or perhaps the connection of Mt. Ellen to Mad River Glen.


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2018)

Are there a few errors on the trail report on the website? Snowball, Coffee Run, HG Traverse, Lower Jester, Header, and Reverse Traverse all are showing as black diamonds at the moment.


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## slatham (Nov 16, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Are there a few errors on the trail report on the website? Snowball, Coffee Run, HG Traverse, Lower Jester, Header, and Reverse Traverse all are showing as black diamonds at the moment.



Maybe because everything that is opened is ungroomed and not for the faint of heart? 

Though the written report this am made no mention of Coffee/Traverse/LJ etc....

But looking at CAM there are definitely people coming down Coffee Run so they must have dropped some ropes!

Yup update report: 

Valley House Quad is scheduled to run 9:00 AM - 4:00 PM, serving ungroomed, advanced terrain on Snowball, Spring Fling, Steins, The Mall, Twist, Lower Twist, Moonshine, and Coffee Run.


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2018)

slatham said:


> Maybe because everything that is opened is ungroomed and not for the faint of heart?



That would be a first if they are dynamically updating trail ratings on the trail report based on conditions. The thought did enter my mind, but wouldn't explain trails like HG Traverse, Lower Jester, Header, and Reverse Traverse being "upgraded" in difficulty when they aren't even open. Plus you have open ungroomed trails like Moonshine still listed as a blue square on the report. I'm more inclined to think it is an error.

Also of note, many (or maybe all) of those same trails I mentioned were listed as diamonds on the iPhone app days ago but now I'm not sure whether I ever double-checked the ratings on the website before now after noticing the iPhone app showing upgraded difficulty ratings on numerous trails. The iPhone app also shows snowmaking active on quite a few trails (including ones with no snowmaking capabilities like Domino and Cat's Meow). I think something is not quite right with the trail report.

PS - awesome that they dropped the ropes on a number of trails with only natural snow already.


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## Zand (Nov 16, 2018)

If they "accidentally" open Castlerock Connection I might accidentally start driving there.


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## WinS (Nov 16, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Are there a few errors on the trail report on the website? Snowball, Coffee Run, HG Traverse, Lower Jester, Header, and Reverse Traverse all are showing as black diamonds at the moment.



Yes. Some computer glitch. Not sure where it is pulling from. Working on fixing it.


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## WinS (Nov 16, 2018)

We have moved snowmaking to Upper Jester and Downspout.  We want to get these open as soon as possible because Riocord, Organgrinder and Spillsville will be openable. They still need more depth because of the water bars but will open as soon as Patrol feels they are ready. Should be a fun day tomorrow. Thanks to all who came out for a really great opening day.


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## benski (Nov 16, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Are there a few errors on the trail report on the website? Snowball, Coffee Run, HG Traverse, Lower Jester, Header, and Reverse Traverse all are showing as black diamonds at the moment.



The snowmaking trails are more challenging without the deep snow on them due to water bars. Natural snow trails lack this problem and can safely open once the ground is mostly covered in snow.


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## smac75 (Nov 17, 2018)

Anyone know if Nomad Coffee will be back?


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## WinS (Nov 17, 2018)

smac75 said:


> Anyone know if Nomad Coffee will be back?



Yes it will. Probably by mid-December.


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## Hawk (Nov 18, 2018)

benski said:


> The snowmaking trails are more challenging without the deep snow on them due to water bars. Natural snow trails lack this problem and can safely open once the ground is mostly covered in snow.



What Ben?    All trails have water bars and have the exact same issue when trying to open.  If you were here yesterday you would have seen this in action on Moonshine, Lexi's and lower snowball.


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2018)

Hawk is correct. Almost all trails have water bars, and that is one of the important considerations in determining whether or not to open trails. They are there to prevent erosion so each trail has its own configuration and some are deeper than others.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 18, 2018)

Disappointing to not have Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate options this weekend


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## tumbler (Nov 18, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Disappointing to not have Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate options this weekend



Would think they would be ready to go by now with temps in the teens since they moved off Snowball, Fling.


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Disappointing to not have Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate options this weekend



Well, it is November 18th and if we had not had temperatures rise Friday night we might have been able to get Downspout completed to open, but we have our focus now on Upper Jester and Downpout so we should have them open midweek. We made the choice to focus early on Upper Snowball, Spring Fling and Valley Traverse first as we did last year when we  had the temperatures down low, and I think that made for a quality opening weekend along with the natural trails that were skiiable.


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Would think they would be ready to go by now with temps in the teens since they moved off Snowball, Fling.



That is not correct. Friday night the temperature at mid we above 32 and around 35 at the base.  They did come down last night and have stayed in the 20's mid-mountain so the snowmaking is coming in well now.  Also the humidity was high but has come down now.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 18, 2018)

You'll be getting some good temps this coming week!


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You'll be getting some good temps this coming week!



Yes. Especially Weds and Thursday.


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## benski (Nov 18, 2018)

How does the rest of the mountain look. With Stains and the mall open all natural, most of the lower mountain trails closed now must have enough snow to open once downspout is open.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2018)

benski said:


> How does the rest of the mountain look. With Stains and the mall open all natural, most of the lower mountain trails closed now must have enough snow to open once downspout is open.



Patrol has not checked them out yet, but it is likely that many could open but they will all need more snow to last. There is some snow in the forecast.  Today and tomorrow snowmaking temps are marginal from mid-mountain down but starting Tuesday night we get some really cold air lasting through Thanksgiving. We are most likely coming off of Upper Jester today and staying on Upper Organgrinder and setting up the lower mountain to take advantage of the cold weather coming in tomorrow night. Downspout is getting close but it did warm up again overnight, so it may have to stay on more time to complete and make is deep enough to groom out.


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## tumbler (Nov 19, 2018)

So where to next?  Murphy's, Birdland, Lower Grinder?  Has Lower DS and Lower Jester from HG been blown yet?  Also stay up high and get Ripcord?  Hoping for more terrain by Turkey day.  Thanks as always for the updates Win.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2018)

tumbler said:


> So where to next?  Murphy's, Birdland, Lower Grinder?  Has Lower DS and Lower Jester from HG been blown yet?  Also stay up high and get Ripcord?  Hoping for more terrain by Turkey day.  Thanks as always for the updates Win.



We came off Upper Jester and Downspout today and lit up all of Organgrinder. We have moved the land guns down to Lower Downspout, Lower Jester and Gondolier to take advantage of cold temps. Hope to have them Open by Friday or Saturday.  After this we will move where temps allow - either going mid-mountain or up to Ripcord. Looks like another warm-up over the weekend. Bravo and HG should spin Wednesday and one can get to the bottom via valley Traverse to Snowball until the trails down from Bottom of HG are in.


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## Los (Nov 20, 2018)

Cannot wait for tomorrow - 31 trails - most natural. Woo hoo!


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## WinS (Nov 21, 2018)

Los said:


> Cannot wait for tomorrow - 31 trails - most natural. Woo hoo!



I hope you got here. It is awesome out there.  Over 4" on new snow so far today.  The groomer's did an outstanding job on Snowball and Spring Fling and did a first groom on Downspout and Jester.  But the natural trails are where you wanted to be.  It looks like the squalls will continue off and on this afternoon setting up a really nice few days. It is getting very  cold tonight and through tomorrow, but it is worth putting on those extra layers.  It could be windy too tomorrow so hopefully we will not have any windhold, but that is a possibility so check in the morning.  We have moved snowmaking down to Lower Downspout, Lower Jester and Gondolier but the way to the bottom is still via Snowball and Spring Fling.  When we turn the guns off we will have a second way down to the base area.  As far as Castlerock there in no exit because of all the hoses and guns across Gondolier, but after they are off we may have hiking over there on Saturday.  Patrol will be assessing the trails tomorrow to see if that is possible.  Happy Thanksgiving and please give thanks for Mother Nature for a fabulous start to the season.

Check out this Unofficial Network post today:  https://unofficialnetworks.com/2018/11/20/the-10-deepest-snowpack-in-north-america-right-now/


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2018)

WinS said:


> As far as Castlerock there in no exit because of all the hoses and guns across Gondolier, but after they are off we may have hiking over there on Saturday.  Patrol will be assessing the trails tomorrow to see if that is possible.



IF (and obviously still a big IF since patrol hasn't checked it out yet) Castlerock did open this weekend for hike access, would that be any sort of record for earliest opening? I thought it was pretty crazy when it opened in early December a couple times recently. To think there's even a chance it could be open in November is pretty unbelievable.


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## WinS (Nov 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> IF (and obviously still a big IF since patrol hasn't checked it out yet) Castlerock did open this weekend for hike access, would that be any sort of record for earliest opening? I thought it was pretty crazy when it opened in early December a couple times recently. To think there's even a chance it could be open in November is pretty unbelievable.



I believe there was a big dump in late November 1997 when everything opened ——- And then everything closed for awhile. Some other may remember that During the ASC era.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Nov 22, 2018)

WinS said:


> I believe there was a big dump in late November 1997 when everything opened ——- And then everything closed for awhile. Some other may remember that During the ASC era.



Something similar happened in Nov 99. Not saying it wasn't 97 also, but I specifically remember in 99 a Tuesday/Wednesday storm dumped about 3 ft up there. I was watching it from work that Wednesday and decided I *had* to get there for Thursday. Castlerock was entirely open ungroomed and deep. It got warm by midday especially at the base but that morning was pretty special. I also remember ppl were grumbling at the ticket window because the ticket price jumped overnight from like $39 to $59 or something in that range. A week or so later I was exchanging stoke with a sugarbush rep at the ski expo in Boston. Good times! 
Back in April (of this year) when that storm hit and you reopened castlerock I was thinking back to that 99 day. It was on that order of rareness, for me at least. [emoji961]


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## WinS (Nov 23, 2018)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Something similar happened in Nov 99. Not saying it wasn't 97 also, but I specifically remember in 99 a Tuesday/Wednesday storm dumped about 3 ft up there. I was watching it from work that Wednesday and decided I *had* to get there for Thursday. Castlerock was entirely open ungroomed and deep. It got warm by midday especially at the base but that morning was pretty special. I also remember ppl were grumbling at the ticket window because the ticket price jumped overnight from like $39 to $59 or something in that range. A week or so later I was exchanging stoke with a sugarbush rep at the ski expo in Boston. Good times!
> Back in April (of this year) when that storm hit and you reopened castlerock I was thinking back to that 99 day. It was on that order of rareness, for me at least. [emoji961]



According to John Hammond, our VP of Mountain Operations, we had 57" in last November of 1997.


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## WinS (Nov 23, 2018)

Tomorrow we will allowing hiking over to Castlerock from 10am to 3pm.  Patrol is stationed at the top.  Those first tracks should be sweet.

It looks like a much warmer but cloudy day tomorrow. The skiing and riding should be fabulous again.  All the snow guns will be coming off so one can get to the bottom via Downspout, Jester and Gondolier too but they will not be groomed until Saturday night to let the moisture drain. Unfortunately, we are in for some rain and freezing rain Saturday evening into Sunday but if we get a snow that some are now forecasting that could make for a terrific base underneath some fresh snow.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 23, 2018)

Bluebird skies and great skiing up on Heaven's Gate today. Ripcord, Spillsville and Paradise merited multiple laps.


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2018)

Win -

With all the new snow - will you be opening any other lifts/terrain this week or weekend?  Castlerock lift?  Gatehouse and North Lynx?


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 27, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Win -
> 
> With all the new snow - will you be opening any other lifts/terrain this week or weekend?  Castlerock lift?  Gatehouse and North Lynx?



Good question.  Would be a great marketing message for Sugarbush if they had Castlerock chair open on Friday.  Probably 1st time ever than ran the chair in November.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 27, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Good question.  Would be a great marketing message for Sugarbush if they had Castlerock chair open on Friday.  Probably 1st time ever than ran the chair in November.



+1. Not sure why they didn’t have valley house running this past weekend. I assume that will happen for this coming weekend. Bravo lines were getting long. Will be worse this weekend without the additional lifts running. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tumbler (Nov 27, 2018)

Budget and staffing.  This is not a usual November


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## tumbler (Nov 27, 2018)

My question would be with all the new snow, what natural trails will be groomed?  Amount and consistency of the snow would seem to be right to pack it with a cat.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 27, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Budget and staffing.  This is not a usual November



I know staffing is an issue across all of the resorts, but budget.... not something I care to hear about. They must be ahead in that regard and it wouldn’t exactly turn the place into the Hermitage Club to run an extra lift. 


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> I know staffing is an issue across all of the resorts, but budget.... not something I care to hear about. They must be ahead in that regard and it wouldn’t exactly turn the place into the Hermitage Club to run an extra lift.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



+1 Morningwoods!

I get budgets and staffing - but come on,... We have had so many shit days with ice and what not - If they have the coverage to open with ZERO snow making I say do it.  I have to believe the staffing cost is not that much of an additional expense.  The trails will have to be groomed at some point anyway - so that's not an extra cost.  The only additional cost I can see is a few more lifties, ski patrol + the power to turn the lifts.


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## slatham (Nov 27, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Good question.  Would be a great marketing message for Sugarbush if they had Castlerock chair open on Friday.  Probably 1st time ever than ran the chair in November.



Its definitely run in November, just not in recent memory......


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## ducky (Nov 27, 2018)

djd66 said:


> +1 Morningwoods!
> 
> I get budgets and staffing - but come on,... We have had so many shit days with ice and what not - If they have the coverage to open with ZERO snow making I say do it.  I have to believe the staffing cost is not that much of an additional expense.  The trails will have to be groomed at some point anyway - so that's not an extra cost.  The only additional cost I can see is a few more lifties, ski patrol + the power to turn the lifts.



It's not the staffing cost, it is the availability of staff. There is a severe shortage of staff in the MRV, not just at Sugarbush. Stowe is feeling it too. The foreign visa college employees do not arrive for a while yet.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 27, 2018)

ducky said:


> It's not the staffing cost, it is the availability of staff. There is a severe shortage of staff in the MRV, not just at Sugarbush. Stowe is feeling it too. The foreign visa college employees do not arrive for a while yet.


When I managed F&B at Snowshoe in WV, the foreign seasonal staff arrived on 12/20.  I oversaw 4 outlets.  I went from a staff of 15 to 100 overnight and had 5 days to train them up for the busiest week of the season.  

Most ski resort guests are completely clueless as to how difficult it is to staff a resort and do so profitably throughout a season.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Quietman (Nov 27, 2018)

And lifties are one of the hardest positions on the mountain to fill. Snowmakers make more $, and lifties are the only other staff that have to be outside in the cold all day/night.  And being a liftie on a H.S. lift is really boring.


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## machski (Nov 27, 2018)

With lifties as well, you are going to staff according to a "normal" year.  You ramp up that particular group as you head into December hoping that all lifts will turn for Christmas.  You don't plan to have all lifts staffed for Thanksgiving.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Quietman (Nov 27, 2018)

WinS said:


> At Sugarbush we are still looking for Snowmakers, lift operators, experienced line chefs and housekeepers so pass the word to anyone looking to work and enjoy a winter of skiing or snowboarding.



When the GM of a very large ski area is posting help wanteds on a forum for skiers in Nov, getting help must be tough!!  Got to give him credit for trying!


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Win -
> 
> With all the new snow - will you be opening any other lifts/terrain this week or weekend?  Castlerock lift?  Gatehouse and North Lynx?



We wil be looking at the best options for the weekend.  We are still building the lift operations team. Some of the veterans are starting to return but the J-1s do not arrive for another couple of weeks.


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Good question.  Would be a great marketing message for Sugarbush if they had Castlerock chair open on Friday.  Probably 1st time ever than ran the chair in November.



A 57” storm in November 1997 opened everything. Then I am today everything closed a few days later. The snow we have been letting has a lot more water content and will build a much better base.


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2018)

Quietman said:


> When the GM of a very large ski area is posting help wanteds on a forum for skiers in Nov, getting help must be tough!!  Got to give him credit for trying!



Almost every area in the country and most other hospitality businesses are experiencing the same thing. That is why the J-1 visa program is so important for us and others.


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2018)

djd66 said:


> +1 Morningwoods!
> 
> I get budgets and staffing - but come on,... We have had so many shit days with ice and what not - If they have the coverage to open with ZERO snow making I say do it.  I have to believe the staffing cost is not that much of an additional expense.  The trails will have to be groomed at some point anyway - so that's not an extra cost.  The only additional cost I can see is a few more lifties, ski patrol + the power to turn the lifts.



This is not a budget issue. As was said it was a staffing issue. Many veterans return when their summer jobs are completed. We are having to hire more and more J-1s because we can not find enough local employees. And the J-1s do not arrive for a couple of weeks have a limit on the number of days they can work. Last weekend we had three lifts and did not have the staff to open a fourth. A. Number of veterans are returning this week, the new staff is getting trained and some more new hires were made, so we should be able to open at least one more lift this week. Almost all ski areas and most hospitality businesses are experiencing the same thing. 

Affordable housing is another big issue to get employees. We have some housing of our own and are leasing several properties in the Valley and have just contracted to buy another place to house 25. This closes early December. The Tenant for Turns program has also provided some good lodging options.

We will groom a natural trail when it is best for snow preservation. And we will resume snowmaking once temps are again favorable.


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## Zermatt (Nov 28, 2018)

I'm watching the Mad River Glen live cam right now and the down mountain bound single chairs have at least 20" of snow on them.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> This is not a budget issue. As was said it was a staffing issue. Many veterans return when their summer jobs are completed. We are having to hire more and more J-1s because we can not find enough local employees. And the J-1s do not arrive for a couple of weeks have a limit on the number of days they can work. Last weekend we had three lifts and did not have the staff to open a fourth. A. Number of veterans are returning this week, the new staff is getting trained and some more new hires were made, so we should be able to open at least one more lift this week. Almost all ski areas and most hospitality businesses are experiencing the same thing.
> 
> Affordable housing is another big issue to get employees. We have some housing of our own and are leasing several properties in the Valley and have just contracted to buy another place to house 25. This closes early December. The Tenant for Turns program has also provided some good lodging options.
> 
> We will groom a natural trail when it is best for snow preservation. And we will resume snowmaking once temps are again favorable.



Thx for the transparency Win, hoping we get that extra lift for the weekend. It’s no secret that there is a labor issue and it isn’t just hospitality, that’s for sure. We are struggling in manufacturing. Much larger business, but we have several hundred open positions. 

What 3 lifts though? I only saw bravo and HG running this weekend? Welcome mat or is Inverness running for GMVS?




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## benski (Nov 28, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> Thx for the transparency Win, hoping we get that extra lift for the weekend. It’s no secret that there is a labor issue and it isn’t just hospitality, that’s for sure. We are struggling in manufacturing. Much larger business, but we have several hundred open positions.
> 
> What 3 lifts though? I only saw bravo and HG running this weekend? Welcome mat or is Inverness running for GMVS?
> 
> ...



Welcome matt is open now.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> And we will resume snowmaking once temps are again favorable.



Based on the snow report, it looks like the next trails for snowmaking are some of the mid and lower ones (Domino Chute, Coffee Run, Lower Jester) instead of Ripcord as mentioned a few days ago. Any insight into the change of plan from Ripcord being next up?


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## djd66 (Nov 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> This is not a budget issue. As was said it was a staffing issue. Many veterans return when their summer jobs are completed. We are having to hire more and more J-1s because we can not find enough local employees. And the J-1s do not arrive for a couple of weeks have a limit on the number of days they can work. Last weekend we had three lifts and did not have the staff to open a fourth. A. Number of veterans are returning this week, the new staff is getting trained and some more new hires were made, so we should be able to open at least one more lift this week. Almost all ski areas and most hospitality businesses are experiencing the same thing.
> 
> Affordable housing is another big issue to get employees. We have some housing of our own and are leasing several properties in the Valley and have just contracted to buy another place to house 25. This closes early December. The Tenant for Turns program has also provided some good lodging options.
> 
> We will groom a natural trail when it is best for snow preservation. And we will resume snowmaking once temps are again favorable.



Thanks for the detailed response Win.  Seasonal businesses are tough - I get it.  It is tough to plan for snowvember like we have had this year.  I'm sure you can appreciate as a pass holder - I just want to get as much value out of my passes as possible and have access to all the skiable terrain when the snow is good.


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## slatham (Nov 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> A 57” storm in November 1997 opened everything. Then I am today everything closed a few days later. The snow we have been letting has a lot more water content and will build a much better base.



I was up visiting relatives for thanksgiving that year. THERE WAS NO SNOW. Nothing! Not even the remnants of a mogul or a drift at the summit. It was too early, too light a snow, and got too warm (obviously). Much different this year, but lets remember the laws of New England weather have not been suspended......


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Based on the snow report, it looks like the next trails for snowmaking are some of the mid and lower ones (Domino Chute, Coffee Run, Lower Jester) instead of Ripcord as mentioned a few days ago. Any insight into the change of plan from Ripcord being next up?



Yes, we turned on Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder but only part way down for now.  The Temps are very marginal so we are only on Bank One and they will be running wet, but we want to get snow down there as soon as possible so they are groomable and we have another  groomed trail top to bottom as soon as possible.  We have a curtailable period tomorrow evening so we have to shut down for several hours and the temps may not allow snowmaking again until late Monday and then it looks a lot better.  (Ripcord now is also too good to risk snowmaking with marginal temps).  According to local meteorologist Saturday is the pick of the week with some funky weather coming in Saturday night into Sunday. But as you know it is too far away to call for certain. A couple of degree and funk turns into flush


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> (Ripcord now is also too good to risk snowmaking with marginal temps)



Hah! That thought actually entered my mind that that could be a possible explanation for not touching Ripcord yet.

My goal is to finally start my season next week (Monday) as I start burning up my remaining vacation days at work. Certainly jealous of all the pictures I've seen so far.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2018)

Nice to see the snow gods loving Sugarbush.  

I see that neighboring MRG is actively discouraging people from earning turns.  I don't recall ever seeing that before.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 28, 2018)

> According to local meteorologist Saturday is the pick of the week with some funky weather coming in Saturday night into Sunday. But as you know it is too far away to call for certain. A couple of degree and funk turns into flush



man tell me about it. i've been dying watching this sunday forecase. most recent GFS is trending cooler, but not cool enough yet.


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## Keelhauled (Nov 28, 2018)

Quietman said:


> And lifties are one of the hardest positions on the mountain to fill. Snowmakers make more $, and lifties are the only other staff that have to be outside in the cold all day/night.  And being a liftie on a H.S. lift is really boring.


Obviously it doesn't necessarily apply universally across the industry, but in my experience pay is based on tenure/seniority, not job--lifties/snowmakers/groomers/whatever have the same starting pay, but wage growth has a little more room for discretion on the part of the department.


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 29, 2018)

Was that hawk ahead of me in the woods? Nope, can’t and doesn’t get much better   One reason skiing is so sick is there is no ice or hard bumps it’s flat  going up for more today    Few more inches  last night and some wind. Happy 60th sugarbush


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## Hawk (Nov 29, 2018)

STREETSKIER said:


> Was that hawk ahead of me in the woods? Nope, can’t and doesn’t get much better   One reason skiing is so sick is there is no ice or hard bumps it’s flat  going up for more today    Few more inches  last night and some wind. Happy 60th sugarbush



Maybe.  I am kind of stealth you know.   LOL


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2018)

Hinting at additional terrain for the weekend, will it be the CR lift?  Also will they go to weekend hours and open at 8?


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## WinS (Nov 29, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Hinting at additional terrain for the weekend, will it be the CR lift?  Also will they go to weekend hours and open at 8?



Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.

We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.


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## benski (Nov 29, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Hinting at additional terrain for the weekend, will it be the CR lift?  Also will they go to weekend hours and open at 8?



That terrain is open already as hike to terrain. Its a nice hike, BTW, you should do it at least once. I suspect Castle rock is the next Lift to open, since otherwise they should have made snow on Pushover instead of Lower Jester. I can't imagine there is enough natural snow for a quad serving 3 natural snow trails and nothing else being a good idea. Gate house's capacity is like 10X Castle rocks, not exaggerating.


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## bumpcrasher (Nov 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.
> 
> We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.



VERY much appreciate the updates!!  Thank you.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.
> 
> We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.



Curious about the GMP curtailment.  I had always assumed that it was during periods of high electricity demand or anticipated demand, and that's why we would see them during holiday/vacation weeks.  But this is no peak demand period.  mid week. temperatures are moderate.  Most of the lifts arent running.


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.
> 
> We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.



Good stuff!! Thanks for the update!


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## MorningWoods (Nov 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.
> 
> We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.



Awesome! Great news.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## djd66 (Nov 29, 2018)

WinS said:


> Yes, Bravo will spin at 8am on Saturday. It is most likely that we will spin Gatehouse and North Lynx in addition to Bravo, HG  and the Welcome Mat with hiking over to Castlerock.  GH and North Lynx may only last a day since we have not had snow made there and given the Sunday forecast.  It is advanced skiing only as it is not groomed and there will be water bars. There is NO bus service between LP and ME so don't expect a pick-up if you head into Slidebrook.
> 
> We have a curtailment from GMP this evening so snowmaking will be off for awhile and will resume on  Domino, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder at LP when we come on until temps rise tomorrow night or Saturday morning.  We will likely be able to resume snowmaking on Tuesday after the warm-up coming in Sunday. After we finish  the middle of the mountain we will go over to Pushover, Slowpoke and Easy Rider to get all that terrain sustainable and then come back to finish the middle of the Mountain off of Bravo.  After that we have Ripcord, Stein's, Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge left and temps will determine where we go first. At ME we will be going up to Rim Run next and we will also need more snow at the top of Inverness for GMVS before moving to complete the rest of the terrain.




This is awesome!  I expect the mountain to be wide open on Saturday with all kinds of choices to ski!


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## Hawk (Nov 30, 2018)

Just a word of advice if you plan to park down at slidebrook this weekend.  That is an active driveway so please be considerate and do not block the driveway.  This has happened in past years and is totally disrespectful of the residents.  I cant believe they mentioned this on the snow report.  There are going to be so many cars that it will be a total crap show.


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## nelsapbm (Nov 30, 2018)

If I had to guess...the recent snow has been super heavy and there have been a lot of power outages. The school district on the back side of Sugarbush (Starksboro, Lincoln, Bristol, etc) was off yesterday because of power outages. Lots of trees and wires down etc.  GMP has been out straight for the past 3 or so days. So, maybe that's why? Just a possible explanation.


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## urungus (Nov 30, 2018)

Heading to Sugarbush for the first time this afternoon, planning on hitting Steins and Paradise,  can anyone one recommend some other open signature trails I shouldn’t miss?  Don’t care if it’s a green blue or black.  Also how long does the hike to Castle Rock take, and how strenuous is it?


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## skimagic (Nov 30, 2018)

All the runs off superbravo from spring fling to birdland are decent. I favor the old school runs- Twist, and Moonshine.  Up top, Organgrinder is fun.  Enjoy!


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2018)

urungus said:


> Heading to Sugarbush for the first time this afternoon, planning on hitting Steins and Paradise,  can anyone one recommend some other open signature trails I shouldn’t miss?  Don’t care if it’s a green blue or black.  Also how long does the hike to Castle Rock take, and how strenuous is it?



The hike is about 15-20 minutes. Some great views along the way that are nice to look at (specifically from "The Church" about halfway on the hike).

As someone else mentioned, Twist and Moonshine are great natural trails if cover looks good. I also love Domino and Lower Domino. Spillsville is another great natural trail up top.

Personally I think Murphy's Glade (not actually a glade as it is a regular trail with a couple trees here and there) is a ton of fun on all natural snow before they make snow on it.


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## Smellytele (Nov 30, 2018)

Who had paradise first? MRG or the bush? Also Birdland?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Personally I think Murphy's Glade (not actually a glade as it is a regular trail with a couple trees here and there) is a ton of fun on all natural snow before they make snow on it.



I agree, but it would be more fun were it actually a glade.  I wonder if there's a story there, like, did it used to be a glade and they cleared to to add a trail.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Who had paradise first? MRG or the bush? Also Birdland?



Bush had Paradise first from what I found. Not sure if it was one of the original summit trails or not, but it was there as of at least 1963's trail map. At MRG, Paradise was cut in 1968 and 1969 it seems.

(Edit: found a trail map from 1958 showing Paradise at Sugarbush as well, so it was an original trail)

Birdland was also one of the early trails at Sugarbush, but I'm not sure if the modern day Birdland is the same as the original one. For some reason I seem to recall reading/hearing that it was relocated at some point and was originally more in the area of either Egan's Woods or Stein's Woods before they moved it and allowed that area to grow back in more with trees.


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree, but it would be more fun were it actually a glade.  I wonder if there's a story there, like, did it used to be a glade and they cleared to to add a trail.



Snowmaking took care of the trees


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Bush had Paradise first from what I found. Not sure if it was one of the original summit trails or not, but it was there as of at least 1963's trail map. At MRG, Paradise was cut in 1968 and 1969 it seems.
> 
> Birdland was also one of the early trails at Sugarbush, but I'm not sure if the modern day Birdland is the same as the original one. For some reason I seem to recall reading/hearing that it was relocated at some point and was originally more in the area of either Egan's Woods or Stein's Woods before they moved it and allowed that area to grow back in more with trees.



I'm pretty sure Paradise is original.  Yes the original Birdland was over by Steins.  You can see there are trees that are much smaller than the surrounding forest where the trail used to be.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Snowmaking took care of the trees



This.  There were more trees years ago.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I'm pretty sure Paradise is original.  Yes the original Birdland was over by Steins.  You can see there are trees that are much smaller than the surrounding forest where the trail used to be.



Yea, I actually found an original 1958 trail map showing Paradise and went back and edited my post (probably right around the same time as you were replying)


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2018)

cdskier said:


> The hike is about 15-20 minutes. Some great views along the way that are nice to look at (specifically from "The Church" about halfway on the hike).
> 
> The hike is worth it, photo taken this morning


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> The hike is worth it, photo taken this morning
> 
> View attachment 24222



Damn that looks incredible. Of course by the time I get up there things could be changed a bit with the weather forecast for this weekend.


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## Rothski (Nov 30, 2018)

I grew up skiing at Sugarbush starting in the late 70’s. The existing Birdland was cut in 1984 or so to accomodate the liftline for Sugar Bravo, originally a triple, which along with Heavens Gate replaced the Gondola. Murphy’s Glade, was previously just called the The Glades, and it had a significant amout of trees through the middle of thr trail. What is really cool is that Moonshine used to be heavily gladed from edge to edge. It was by far the most fun on the mountain. The trees were cut sometime in the 80’s I think. We were so disappointed. Also, sleeper had way more trees as well.


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## urungus (Nov 30, 2018)

Thanks for the advice everybody, hit most of the trails mentioned and had a great time today during my first visit.  It was pretty foggy at the top, but conditions were awesome!  Paradise my was run of the day.  After climbing the lengthy staircase from the parking lot, I was not able to summon the energy for the walk to Castle Rock, but after seeing the photo above I wish I had been able to rally.  Does the Castle Rock chair only run on weekends?  (Although once the chair is running you wouldn’t get the splendid isolation of the photo.)


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## urungus (Nov 30, 2018)

Couple pix


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2018)

urungus said:


> Does the Castle Rock chair only run on weekends?  (Although once the chair is running you wouldn’t get the splendid isolation of the photo.)



No, once it starts running it will run all week. At times it won't run but they allow hiking if there's enough snow to support some traffic, but not as much traffic as the lift running would bring (a common scenario early season while the base builds up). Could also be early season staffing challenges right now though keeping it from running. There's a part of me that actually would not mind if the CR chair never ran and it was always hiking only. There's something pretty special about hiking over and being able to ski trails with only a handful of other people around. (Of course there's also a lazier part of me that very much enjoys riding that lift and not having to hike).


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Snowmaking took care of the trees



Can you explain that, I'm not getting it.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you explain that, I'm not getting it.


Snowmaking kills trees.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ss20 (Dec 1, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you explain that, I'm not getting it.



The heavy ice/water shit thrown out by the guns cakes themselves onto tree limbs and brings them down.  

The last tree on Upper East Fall at Killington fell a few years ago after snowmaking.  Big Dipper glade gets thinner by the year.


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## WinS (Dec 1, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> Curious about the GMP curtailment.  I had always assumed that it was during periods of high electricity demand or anticipated demand, and that's why we would see them during holiday/vacation weeks.  But this is no peak demand period.  mid week. temperatures are moderate.  Most of the lifts arent running.


In addition to curtailing when there are peak demand, there is a mandatory monthly curtailment. That is what this one wa. We had an earlier 50% curtailment. Because of our low energy equipment now we can run when 50% curtailed which is very helpful. There is nothing worse than having to shut down completely,  drain the lines, and the start back up. It takes hours and the pressure on the pipes increases the risk of a break.


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## phin (Dec 1, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Snowmaking kills trees.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sugarbush snowmaking kills trees.

It seriously has to be some of the worst man-made snow in the east.  That said snowmaking is not why we ski here, but I was thankful when guns started to turn off on Friday..  it was actually starting to ruin some of the trails.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 2, 2018)

I dare anyone to run snowguns in a glade without bringing a few branches down. It's easy if you're running a few hundred feet of trail, but much much harder once you have any significant amount of firepower going at once.

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2018)

urungus said:


> Thanks for the advice everybody, hit most of the trails mentioned and had a great time today during my first visit.  It was pretty foggy at the top, but conditions were awesome!  Paradise my was run of the day.  After climbing the lengthy staircase from the parking lot, I was not able to summon the energy for the walk to Castle Rock, but after seeing the photo above I wish I had been able to rally.  Does the Castle Rock chair only run on weekends?  (Although once the chair is running you wouldn’t get the splendid isolation of the photo.)



if the walk from the parking lot takes it out of you, you should probably consider your overall physical fitness


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## WinS (Dec 2, 2018)

phin said:


> Sugarbush snowmaking kills trees.
> 
> It seriously has to be some of the worst man-made snow in the east.  That said snowmaking is not why we ski here, but I was thankful when guns started to turn off on Friday..  it was actually starting to ruin some of the trails.



That is a very uninformed comment. It is very challenging to make snow on narrow trails. Winds direction, temperatures, humidity can change quickly. There  is not snowmaking on many of our classic New England trails such as Moonshine, Domino for this reason.
Almost all of the comments were dated and that tree damage happened years ago with very different equipment this used today. At times, we will make snow in marginal conditions to get a base down in preparation for the season. The snow being made on Lower Jester last week was an example of that. We pushed until it became counter productive and turned off to resume when the cold resumes next week. It was wet but it will allow us to get enough depth to groom and that is an important trail to have in place for intermediate level skiers.


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## spring_mountain_high (Dec 2, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if the walk from the parking lot takes it out of you, you should probably consider your overall physical fitness



lol what a douche...ok tough guy


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## TSQURD (Dec 2, 2018)

Said another way, the hike to CR is a little more strenuous then the walk from the lot. Probably best not to attempt the hike to CR if one finds the walk from the lot draining.


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## slatham (Dec 2, 2018)

WinS said:


> That is a very uninformed comment. It is very challenging to make snow on narrow trails. Winds direction, temperatures, humidity can change quickly. There  is not snowmaking on many of our classic New England trails such as Moonshine, Domino for this reason.
> Almost all of the comments were dated and that tree damage happened years ago with very different equipment this used today. At times, we will make snow in marginal conditions to get a base down in preparation for the season. The snow being made on Lower Jester last week was an example of that. We pushed until it became counter productive and turned off to resume when the cold resumes next week. It was wet but it will allow us to get enough depth to groom and that is an important trail to have in place for intermediate level skiers.



Win I think people are a bit "blinded by the white" and don't realize its late November/early Dec in VT. The great snow we've had doesn't change the need to take advantage of temps and put down base-type snow. Strange thing is with all the terrain open its pretty easy to avoid the guns if you know what your doing.....


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## HowieT2 (Dec 3, 2018)

WinS said:


> In addition to curtailing when there are peak demand, there is a mandatory monthly curtailment. That is what this one wa. We had an earlier 50% curtailment. Because of our low energy equipment now we can run when 50% curtailed which is very helpful. There is nothing worse than having to shut down completely,  drain the lines, and the start back up. It takes hours and the pressure on the pipes increases the risk of a break.



why do they do a mandatory monthly curtailment?


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 3, 2018)

urungus said:


> After climbing the lengthy staircase from the parking lot, I was not able to summon the energy for the walk to Castle Rock, but after seeing the photo above I wish I had been able to rally.


  This, is otherwise known as a "warm-up."


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## MorningWoods (Dec 3, 2018)

TSQURD said:


> Said another way, the hike to CR is a little more strenuous then the walk from the lot. Probably best not to attempt the hike to CR if one finds the walk from the lot draining.



+1.  The hike can be particularly challenging if the snow isn’t packed. So, wait till later in the day or the next day after a storm, if you are worried. That said, my 10 year old did it with me. So, it’s nothing to be afraid of and very worth it most times.  There are also a few places to stop and take in the view. There are also a couple of spots that need to be skied.  


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## Hawk (Dec 3, 2018)

This whole thread is hilarious. Was Happy to ski good conditions early.

But what I am wondering is who it was that cut the illegal trail?  It had to be totally obvious and stupid if they mountain found it on the first day they opened north linx.  Complete and utter baffonery.  LOL


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## mfi (Dec 3, 2018)

We climbed Mad River, then over the App trail and downclimbed CR..that was murderous....in June.


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This whole thread is hilarious. Was Happy to ski good conditions early.
> 
> But what I am wondering is who it was that cut the illegal trail?  It had to be totally obvious and stupid if they mountain found it on the first day they opened north linx.  Complete and utter baffonery.  LOL



I think they knew about it before Saturday, there was an article in the VR about it last week.  My guess is the Forest Service found it when they do their periodic site visits.  Utter buffoonery?  12/10 yes


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## MorningWoods (Dec 3, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I think they knew about it before Saturday, there was an article in the VR about it last week.  My guess is the Forest Service found it when they do their periodic site visits.  Utter buffoonery?  12/10 yes



The VR also mentioned a lean to shelter someone had built in there that SB was going to take down. Sounds like some kids. 


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> The VR also mentioned a lean to shelter someone had built in there that SB was going to take down. Sounds like some kids.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes, it was discovered earlier by the USFS. It was no kid as the construction of the lean to was quite sophisticated and large. The USFS has a lead and will prosecute if they can. This type of activity could ruin it for all. We have had a decade old vegetation management plan that was the first in the East. They have been very good about allowing us to have an open woods policy but this stupidity by an obviously irresponsible and selfish person could ruin this for all of us. Half of Sugarbush is on USFS land and we have a Special Use Permit that allows us to operate as we do. We have an excellent relationship and comply with the provisions of the permit. No cutting is allowed without permission. If any of you seen any unauthorized cutting or hear of it, please let us know so we keep what we all enjoy.


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2018)

What a fabulous run. Sunday and today did remind us that it is still early December in Vermont. As it warmed up and rained, we did lose some depth but are still is great shape for this time of year. Howwver, it will take another storm to bring back the superb conditions that we have been enjoying. But as we love to say here in the  NE, “ we are building a great base.” Today skied quite nicely from mid-mountain down as the summits had poorer visability and a thin glaze was forming as temps started down. The temps are falling quickly now with a possibility of an inch or two of snow overnight. We will resume snowmaking tonight on the GH side on Pushover, Slowepoke and Easy Rider so we have some good groomed beginner and intermediate terrain for next weekend. The GH lift will be closed until later in the week for that reason. Once done we will come back to mid- mountain on the Bravo side. Over at ME we need more depth on Upper Inverness and Brambles for GMVS and once done will be going back to Rim Run and completing a path to the bottom.


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## cdskier (Dec 3, 2018)

WinS said:


> Today skied quite nicely from mid-mountain down as the summits had poorer visability and a thin glaze was forming as temps started down.



This afternoon was my first day out finally. I ran some errands this morning when it was raining when I woke up. I’d fully agree with your assessment. From the top of bravo down was very nice and soft. Murphy’s and lower organgrinder had some nice soft bumps. Certainly nothing to complain about for the beginning of December.


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## benski (Dec 3, 2018)

Its to bad the illegal shelter is being taken down, I would have liked to see someone put a really sensitive smoke detector on there and a camera so we can watch whoever built it freak out.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 3, 2018)

mfi said:


> We climbed Mad River, then over the App trail and downclimbed CR..that was murderous....in June.



Nice. Do they still do the race up the mountain? I did the Vermont Gran Fondo. That was tough. Looking for a new challenge. Was hoping to see the AT race they used to do from MRG to Sugarbush. I think weather killed that the last couple times they tried. I wouldn’t mind doing that. 



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## Hawk (Dec 4, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I think they knew about it before Saturday, there was an article in the VR about it last week.  My guess is the Forest Service found it when they do their periodic site visits.  Utter buffoonery?  12/10 yes



When I say Utter buffoonery, I was obviously referring to how stupid the people that cut the trail and built a shelter were in the national forest.  I agree that doing this is not good for our relationship with he forest service.  But being so blatant about it to the point that you get caught and it goes in the paper even before the area opens for the season is just way beyond me.


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2018)

Hawk said:


> When I say Utter buffoonery, I was obviously referring to how stupid the people that cut the trail and built a shelter were in the national forest.  I agree that doing this is not good for our relationship with he forest service.  But being so blatant about it to the point that you get caught and it goes in the paper even before the area opens for the season is just way beyond me.



And I agree!


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## HowieT2 (Dec 4, 2018)

tumbler said:


> And I agree!


where is it?  off north lynx?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 4, 2018)

benski said:


> Its to bad the illegal shelter is being taken down, I would have liked to see someone put a really sensitive smoke detector on there *and a camera so we can watch whoever built it* freak out.



A $350 cellular game cam is all it would take to bust them.  

Pretty obvious, so hopefully they're doing that and we just don't know.


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## benski (Dec 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> A $350 cellular game cam is all it would take to bust them.
> 
> Pretty obvious, so hopefully they're doing that and we just don't know.



Yeah but a smoke alarm would give them a good scare, for our entertainment.


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> where is it?  off north lynx?



Yes, off Sunrise.


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Yes, off Sunrise.




Part of our agreement with the USFS it isolate this area with warning signs and to increase Patrols monitoring, so please do not try to locate it. They really do not want anyone in there. Lots of other woods to explore. And, yes there could be cameras around.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 4, 2018)

WinS said:


> Part of our agreement with the USFS it isolate this area with warning signs and to increase Patrols monitoring, so please do not try to locate it. They really do not want anyone in there. Lots of other woods to explore. And, yes *there could be cameras around.*



So tempting though.

https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Costumes...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=28621JQYRZW1XM4DHEYB


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So tempting though.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Costumes...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=28621JQYRZW1XM4DHEYB



Get the Yeti one Lol!


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2018)

WinS said:


> Part of our agreement with the USFS it isolate this area with warning signs and to increase Patrols monitoring, so please do not try to locate it. They really do not want anyone in there. Lots of other woods to explore. And, yes there could be cameras around.



No problemo.  If I'm up there and going in the woods, I'm going left into SB not right.


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2018)

The regular entrance is fine.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 4, 2018)

WinS said:


> The regular entrance is fine.



So what is the plan this week for snowmaking.  I saw on the website that you guys are working on the Gatehouse side.  Whats next, Ripcord?  Also after the rain/freeze how are the natural trails skiing?  Also is there enough snow to groom trails like Ripcord or Murphys?

Thanks Win


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## Tin Woodsman (Dec 4, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> So what is the plan this week for snowmaking.  I saw on the website that you guys are working on the Gatehouse side.  Whats next, Ripcord?  Also after the rain/freeze how are the natural trails skiing?  Also is there enough snow to groom trails like Ripcord or Murphys?
> 
> Thanks Win


Just need to look a few posts back where Win laid out the plan and answered your questions.


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## Hawk (Dec 5, 2018)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Just need to look a few posts back where Win laid out the plan and answered your questions.



Tin, I answered your PM but It does not show up as sent.  Did you see it?


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2018)

Here is what the weekend is looking like!  Starting off very cold in the morning on Saturday, but looks like both days should see good sun and not a lot of wind so it could be some nice mid-winter weather.  We have been making snow at LP on Pushover, Slowpoke, Easy Rider, Sugar Bear Road, Sugar Forest and Coffee Run.  We came off of Coffee Run this morning and portions of Pushover and Sugar Bear Road and Forest and moved up to Lower Organgrinder.  We are curtailed tomorrow (friday)  from 5-9pm and thus have to shut down entirely which is a huge pain in the *** for our snowmaking team.  We will resume where we were and also light up Domino Chutes and the lower sections of Jester and keep running there for most of the weekend.  We might have some capacity to get some towers on Murphy's as well.  Over at ME we finished with Inverness and NR Expressway and have turned on Riemergasse for the terrain park and are also going to Which Way.  Rim Run and Elbow will need more but ME is coming together very well.

The following lifts will most likely run on Saturday: Bravo, Valley, Gatehouse, North Lynx, Heaven's Gate and The Welcome Mat. There are some open water bars in Slidebrook so watch out for them.

Finally, we did get some snow squalls today and more are likely tonight with the possibility of a few inches of further accumulation.  It is skiing a lot better than Monday.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 6, 2018)

WinS said:


> Here is what the weekend is looking like!  Starting off very cold in the morning on Saturday, but looks like both days should see good sun and not a lot of wind so it could be some nice mid-winter weather.  We have been making snow at LP on Pushover, Slowpoke, Easy Rider, Sugar Bear Road, Sugar Forest and Coffee Run.  We came off of Coffee Run this morning and portions of Pushover and Sugar Bear Road and Forest and moved up to Lower Organgrinder.  We are curtailed tonight from 5-9pm and thus have to shut down entirely which is a huge pain in the *** for our snowmaking team.  We will resume where we were and also light up Domino Chutes and the lower sections of Jester and keep running there for most of the weekend.  We might have some capacity to get some towers on Murphy's as well.  Over at ME we finished with Inverness and NR Expressway and have turned on Riemergasse for the terrain park and are also going to Which Way.  Rim Run and Elbow will need more but ME is coming together very well.
> 
> The following lifts will most likely run on Saturday: Bravo, Valley, Gatehouse, North Lynx, Heaven's Gate and The Welcome Mat. There are some open water bars in Slidebrook so watch out for them.
> 
> Finally, we did get some snow squalls today and more are likely tonight with the possibility of a few inches of further accumulation.  It is skiing a lot better than Monday.



Thanks Win!  Just an FYI...as someone who is debating on whether or not to hit Sugarbush this weekend...this post and your communication in general is definitely working to bring me there!!

Castlerock still OK to hike this weekend I'd imagine?


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Thanks Win!  Just an FYI...as someone who is debating on whether or not to hit Sugarbush this weekend...this post and your communication in general is definitely working to bring me there!!
> 
> Castlerock still OK to hike this weekend I'd imagine?



Yes, CR is open to hiking.  I also corrected my post, curtailment in tomorrow (Friday) not tonight.  I am also get my edges sharpened as I did not really need them my first 15 days.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 6, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Thanks Win!  Just an FYI...as someone who is debating on whether or not to hit Sugarbush this weekend...this post and your communication in general is definitely working to bring me there!!
> 
> Castlerock still OK to hike this weekend I'd imagine?



Castlerock is open, I hiked it today.  However you can't ski any portion of the long trail.  There are alot of trees down.


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## ss20 (Dec 6, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Castlerock is open, I hiked it today.  However you can't ski any portion of the long trail.  There are alot of trees down.



Ooof...I've only done the hike once...skiing 1/3 of it really helped lol.  Thanks for the heads up.  How's coverage across the mountain?  I'd imagine it's still deep enough to cover a lot of stuff in the woods but ice skates required lmao.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 6, 2018)

WinS said:


> Here is what the weekend is looking like!  Starting off very cold in the morning on Saturday, but looks like both days should see good sun and not a lot of wind so it could be some nice mid-winter weather.  We have been making snow at LP on Pushover, Slowpoke, Easy Rider, Sugar Bear Road, Sugar Forest and Coffee Run.  We came off of Coffee Run this morning and portions of Pushover and Sugar Bear Road and Forest and moved up to Lower Organgrinder.  We are curtailed tomorrow (friday)  from 5-9pm and thus have to shut down entirely which is a huge pain in the *** for our snowmaking team.  We will resume where we were and also light up Domino Chutes and the lower sections of Jester and keep running there for most of the weekend.  We might have some capacity to get some towers on Murphy's as well.  Over at ME we finished with Inverness and NR Expressway and have turned on Riemergasse for the terrain park and are also going to Which Way.  Rim Run and Elbow will need more but ME is coming together very well.
> 
> The following lifts will most likely run on Saturday: Bravo, Valley, Gatehouse, North Lynx, Heaven's Gate and The Welcome Mat. There are some open water bars in Slidebrook so watch out for them.
> 
> Finally, we did get some snow squalls today and more are likely tonight with the possibility of a few inches of further accumulation.  It is skiing a lot better than Monday.



The curtailment comes at a most inopportune time with temps in the single digits.  

generator at my inlaws house just died and so I was looking at alternatives such as a battery like the Tesla powerpac.  Wonder if that would be a viable alternative.  Perhaps replace the the backup generators for the lifts with batteries and then use the power from them for snowmaking during curtailments.

anyway, expecting delivery of new skis today and hopefully heading up tomorrow.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 6, 2018)

It might be more economical to build a small or midsize pumped storage system - use pumps to move water to an upper pond, then use that water for hydro power later. Also it can be used to gravity feed snowmaking on the lower mountain. You'd need to navigate a minefield of regulation, though, to build a pond high enough and large enough to work well. 

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## HowieT2 (Dec 6, 2018)

IceEidolon said:


> It might be more economical to build a small or midsize pumped storage system - use pumps to move water to an upper pond, then use that water for hydro power later. Also it can be used to gravity feed snowmaking on the lower mountain. You'd need to navigate a minefield of regulation, though, to build a pond high enough and large enough to work well.
> 
> Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk



pumped water storage is probably cheaper but in no way practical for this application.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 6, 2018)

Back of the envelope math: at $400/kwh per https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/what-do-solar-batteries-cost/ using 2000 hp between pumps and compressors, 1491.4 kw × 5 hours × $400/kwh battery cost, 2,982,800 cost for a battery bank able to run a reasonably sized snowmaking system through a curtailment. Larger systems and a larger safety factor would cost more.

Jiminy Peak and Seven Springs both use gravity feed pumped storage, but for direct water supply rather than power generation. Being on forest service land or site geography may make pumped storage impractical for a given resort. https://www.saminfo.com/the-magazine/this-issue/item/164930-the-power-of-water goes into this in more detail.

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## MorningWoods (Dec 6, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Castlerock is open, I hiked it today.  However you can't ski any portion of the long trail.  There are alot of trees down.



Out of curiosity, any idea who maintains that trail?  


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## jaybird (Dec 6, 2018)

Saw bunch of timber on the ground on the way over there .. sadly

Couple decent squawls on paradise mid afternoon today.
Troughs are filling in ..

Superb overall


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## WWF-VT (Dec 6, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> Out of curiosity, any idea who maintains that trail?



Green Mountain Club - founder and maintainer of the Long Trail 

https://www.greenmountainclub.org/


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Castlerock is open, I hiked it today.  However you can't ski any portion of the long trail.  There are alot of trees down.



How were the conditions on CR itself? I noticed the sign at the top of HG this morning saying the hike was walking only due to trees down on the long trail.


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## Hawk (Dec 7, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> Out of curiosity, any idea who maintains that trail?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it is a joint effort.  I have seen patrollers using hand saws to clean up blow downs.  I have also seen fellow skiers doing it on a volunteer basis.  I myself have even moved a few downed trees.  it is after all, our forest.


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## WinS (Dec 7, 2018)

Quick update. Curtailments has been called off tonight. This is great for the snowmaking team and means that 1.5 -2million more gallons can be pumped out tonight.

Wundebar will be open Saturday this weekend and then to regular schedule next weekend.

Rumble's had a lucheon buffet last weekend which was very well received, so we will be doing that again tomorrow.  Give it a try and give us your feedback.


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## djd66 (Dec 8, 2018)

Cold skiing today, but awesome conditions!  Where was everyone today?  Trails and lift lines were like a Monday.  My guess is there were so many lifts/ trails open that it completely spread out the small amount of people skiing today.


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## WinS (Dec 8, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Cold skiing today, but awesome conditions!  Where was everyone today?  Trails and lift lines were like a Monday.  My guess is there were so many lifts/ trails open that it completely spread out the small amount of people skiing today.



Yes, for this time of year we had a nice number of  skier visit (3,300). Last week we had 50% more because of the ideal conditions and warmer temps.  But still much better than last year and what we normally see.  Tomorrow looks warmer.


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## ss20 (Dec 8, 2018)

They were all in the lodge!  As you said...very minimal liftlines or people on the hill.  I went in for lunch at 12:30...thinking I still had the "early season" lack of crowds...nope.  

Great skiing on Morning Star lift today.  Sunny and fresh snow.  Everything else pretty scratchy and cold.  Only my 4th day at Sugarbush ever...I get more and more impressed each time.  Absolutely lovely place.


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## benski (Dec 8, 2018)

ss20 said:


> They were all in the lodge!  As you said...very minimal liftlines or people on the hill.  I went in for lunch at 12:30...thinking I still had the "early season" lack of crowds...nope.
> 
> Great skiing on Morning Star lift today.  Sunny and fresh snow.  Everything else pretty scratchy and cold.  Only my 4th day at Sugarbush ever...I get more and more impressed each time.  Absolutely lovely place.



3,300 is not a massive crowd for a midwinter weekend, and having lots of moguls, and good conditions keep people from zooming back to the lift after getting off.


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2018)

Skiing was great.  Especially if you went to areas that no one has been.  We got out real early both days and the conditions overall were much better than expected.  The 4"-6" that they got went a long way.
So you're not going to believe this, but I have to say that the snowmaking on lower organ grinder was very good.  It seems that they got the mix right for most of the trail.  We did several runs on it before people figured it out and they were some of the best turns I had.  I have to give credit where credit is due.  Snowmaking is hard work.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Skiing was great.  Especially if you went to areas that no one has been.  We got out real early both days and the conditions overall were much better than expected.  The 4"-6" that they got went a long way.
> So you're not going to believe this, but I have to say that the snowmaking on lower organ grinder was very good.  It seems that they got the mix right for most of the trail.  We did several runs on it before people figured it out and they were some of the best turns I had.  I have to give credit where credit is due.  Snowmaking is hard work.



conditions were great.  hiked over to CR and middle earth was about the best Ive ever experienced outside a powder day.  ample base in the woods and nice cover.  hit paradise woods,  enchanted forest and between og and spills.. All were excellent.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2018)

didnt ski bush this weekend, but was at killington saturday, and the ~6-8" they got in 2" spurts over the week was tremendous for the woods. everything skied untracked and soft, but with a solid layer underneath. totally manageable and quite enjoyable.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2018)

forget to mention.  went lawson's saturday evening.  amazing.  even better than I had hoped it would be.


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 10, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> forget to mention.  went lawson's saturday evening.  amazing.  even better than I had hoped it would be.


How crowded was it?


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> How crowded was it?


It was packed but not uncomfortably so because they were controlling the number of people they allowed in.  There was a "bouncer" at the door, someone at the junction between the retail store and the beer hall (for lack of a better term) and there was parking lot attendant directing traffic.  So it was busy, but we didnt have to wait to get in and got a small table.


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 10, 2018)

Ok, that was what I was wondering about (crowd management).  Apparently they have to manage the number of people inside due to fire code.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 10, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Ok, that was what I was wondering about (crowd management).  Apparently they have to manage the number of people inside due to fire code.



I was there. I would agree crowded, but not mid season castle rock pub crowded. Comfortable. They did an awesome job with the place. Looks great. 


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## WinS (Dec 10, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Skiing was great.  Especially if you went to areas that no one has been.  We got out real early both days and the conditions overall were much better than expected.  The 4"-6" that they got went a long way.
> So you're not going to believe this, but I have to say that the snowmaking on lower organ grinder was very good.  It seems that they got the mix right for most of the trail.  We did several runs on it before people figured it out and they were some of the best turns I had.  I have to give credit where credit is due.  Snowmaking is hard work.



Is this the real Hawk????

Thank you.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2018)

WinS said:


> Is this the real Hawk????
> 
> Thank you.



Ha ha!
I think so.  Saw him in the gatehouse sunday morning and there were no complaints.  Happy as a clam.  funny what a four foot snow pack will do.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2018)

WinS said:


> Is this the real Hawk????
> 
> Thank you.



Hah!

To add to the snowmaking kudos, I thought lower snowball today under the guns was beautiful as well. Too bad I didn’t decide to check it out until what I had already decided was my last run for the day. Wanted to lap it but had other commitments this afternoon.


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## WinS (Dec 10, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Hah!
> 
> To add to the snowmaking kudos, I thought lower snowball today under the guns was beautiful as well. Too bad I didn’t decide to check it out until what I had already decided was my last run for the day. Wanted to lap it but had other commitments this afternoon.
> 
> ...



We will stay on Murphy’s, Birdland, Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge for couple more days. It will be warming up as we approach Saturday so we will have to see if it makes sense to go up to Ripcord or move back to the GH side to focus on Sleeper, Hot Shot and North Lynx. At ME, the terrain park is coming in well and we turned on Lower Cruiser. Still need more on Rim Run and Lower Elbow too.


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## tumbler (Dec 11, 2018)

Win- now that the natural has settled in and compacted into a good solid base, any thought of putting a groomer on some of the trails that are usually groomed but have not have snow made on them yet?  Now that you are on Murphy's and Birdland it leaves GH and NL trails and Ripcord.  Just curious.


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2018)

Just curious, was domino chute widened? I keep thinking it seems different this year every time I take it.


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## tumbler (Dec 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Just curious, was domino chute widened? I keep thinking it seems different this year every time I take it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I don't think so as there is a hill on the right and drop off on the left.  Probably some trees were trimmed by snowmaking.


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## WinS (Dec 11, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I don't think so as there is a hill on the right and drop off on the left.  Probably some trees were trimmed by snowmaking.



It is the same.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2018)

In football an alert quarterback knows when to call an audible.  That happens with snowmaking too.  We came off of Birdland and Murphy's earlier today but are staying on Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge a bit longer to make sure that is all set up for the winter.  We have a half-curtailment tonight but that allows us to keep running and then a full curtailment tomorrow. We were planning to move up to Ripcord but as we were charging the line it blew, so we are moving to Stein's tonight.  We will not have enough time to finish it before tomorrow's curtailment but I think with the cold temps tonight, there could be some really nice turns on it tomorrow. Over at ME  we are finishing up the terrain park and moving back up the mountain.  Things will be warming up Friday through Monday so unlikely we can turn the guns on until then.  Fortunately, the forecast for the weekend is looking a lot better at this point with colder temps and not a lot of precip.  Finger crossed that the warmer and wet stays south of us.


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## tumbler (Dec 12, 2018)

Ugh.  Hope you are not dragging an excavator and a winch up to Ripcord for a difficult repair.  Definitely fingers crossed on the weather for the weekend.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Ugh.  Hope you are not dragging an excavator and a winch up to Ripcord for a difficult repair.  Definitely fingers crossed on the weather for the weekend.



It happened just as it got dark so will find out in the morning what it looks like! But that may be what is required.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2018)

WinS said:


> It happened just as it got dark so will find out in the morning what it looks like! But that may be what is required.



Ouch. Hope it doesn’t turn out too bad once you can see the problem.

Looking forward to possibly checking out steins tomorrow though.

Today I ended up going over to mad river for the first time ever. Pretty amazing experience and glad I finally visited our neighbor in the valley.


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## tumbler (Dec 13, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Ouch. Hope it doesn’t turn out too bad once you can see the problem.
> 
> Looking forward to possibly checking out steins tomorrow though.
> 
> ...



Jealous of your mid week skiing.  Tough decisions of which lift to ski onto.


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Jealous of your mid week skiing.  Tough decisions of which lift to ski onto.



Hah. Usually only happens in December when I have to use up my vacation days before the end of the year. 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Ouch. Hope it doesn’t turn out too bad once you can see the problem.
> 
> Looking forward to possibly checking out steins tomorrow though.
> 
> ...



How long have you skied in the MRV before getting to MRG?  Both compliment each other pretty well IMHO.  It is definitely a huge selling point for the Valley.


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> How long have you skied in the MRV before getting to MRG?  Both compliment each other pretty well IMHO.  It is definitely a huge selling point for the Valley.



7th year as a condo owner and sugarbush pass holder. Prior to that I was up at sugarbush only 1 weekend a year since 2004 I want to say.

Been on my “need to get there one day” list for far too long needless to say. A big reason I never got there until now is that I always wanted to go there midweek and I’m not in the valley that often midweek.


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## ss20 (Dec 14, 2018)

Win- Are $30 Thursdays back at Mt. Ellen this season?  I can't find it on the website at all if that's still a thing.


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## tumbler (Dec 14, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Win- Are $30 Thursdays back at Mt. Ellen this season?  I can't find it on the website at all if that's still a thing.



Yes- starts Jan 3rd.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> 7th year as a condo owner and sugarbush pass holder. Prior to that I was up at sugarbush only 1 weekend a year since 2004 I want to say.
> 
> Been on my “need to get there one day” list for far too long needless to say. A big reason I never got there until now is that I always wanted to go there midweek and I’m not in the valley that often midweek.
> 
> ...



Where are you CD Snow Creek?


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Where are you CD Snow Creek?



North lynx


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## WinS (Dec 14, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Win- Are $30 Thursdays back at Mt. Ellen this season?  I can't find it on the website at all if that's still a thing.



I have to  quicker or Tumbler will take my job


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## tumbler (Dec 14, 2018)

WinS said:


> I have to  quicker or Tumbler will take my job



I did sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night...


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> North lynx
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I'm right above you.  Are you the one lighting off the fireworks?  LOL


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## ducky (Dec 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I'm right above you.  Are you the one lighting off the fireworks?  LOL



You at Summit?


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 14, 2018)

Looking at the new schedule for the Mad Bus.  The name will hold tree with the new schedule.
A. Their timeline for each stop isn't doable.
B. Looks like they are combining the mtn bus with access road bus
C.  They aren't taking into consideration stopping at slide brook.  Plus I heard they are only going to run the smaller buses.  Image stopping at all the access complexes for pick ups then stopping at slide brook.  Where is everyone going to sit.
D. They use to go thru lower club, they took that completely off their route.  If you live in lower club you will have to walk up to the access road to get picked up.
Whoever came up with the new schedule, really didn't think it thru.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2018)

ducky said:


> You at Summit?


Nope, Trail Side


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Looking at the new schedule for the Mad Bus.  The name will hold tree with the new schedule.
> A. Their timeline for each stop isn't doable.
> B. Looks like they are combining the mtn bus with access road bus
> C.  They aren't taking into consideration stopping at slide brook.  Plus I heard they are only going to run the smaller buses.  Image stopping at all the access complexes for pick ups then stopping at slide brook.  Where is everyone going to sit.
> ...


I think you are wrong about the buses.  I have friends that drive.  They always ramp up as the season goes on.  I wouldn't be alarmed.


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## tumbler (Dec 14, 2018)

I don't understand why they do not go to Warren Village.  There is a commuter parking lot there and enough to do for a little while.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> Looking at the new schedule for the Mad Bus.  The name will hold tree with the new schedule.
> A. Their timeline for each stop isn't doable.
> B. Looks like they are combining the mtn bus with access road bus
> C.  They aren't taking into consideration stopping at slide brook.  Plus I heard they are only going to run the smaller buses.  Image stopping at all the access complexes for pick ups then stopping at slide brook.  Where is everyone going to sit.
> ...



Kind of hard to complain about a free service....


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I'm right above you.  Are you the one lighting off the fireworks?  LOL



Nice. Nope, isn't me. If it was on weekends I haven't even been there! 



nhskier1969 said:


> Looking at the new schedule for the Mad Bus.  The name will hold tree with the new schedule.



I rode the bus a few years but then pretty much gave up on it. On weekends I like being at the lift right around 8 when they open. The first stop by my condo used to be 8:15 or something like that so was pretty useless if you wanted to be at the lifts when they open. Plus now on Saturdays a lot of the time I will just drive straight to ME and ski there. 

Just looked at the new schedule and it is a bit earlier now (8:02), but still gets you to the mountain after it opens. I'm completely confused why mid-week they're now picking up earlier than weekend for the mountain condo route. Lifts don't open until 9 but they're picking up starting at 7:42? That seems a bit backwards.


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## benski (Dec 14, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Kind of hard to complain about a free service....



True, but I think many people think of the Mount Ellen bus as another ski area tram. 90% of the people on it are using it in that way. Though with this route we do get an extra bus every hour.


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## benski (Dec 14, 2018)

I just pulled up the schedule. It says it will stop at Manlin Rd. and Slide Brook Rd. on request, so we get more service there.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 14, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Kind of hard to complain about a free service....



I could be wrong but I believe that the condo associations pay a portion of the shuttle cost


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## TSQURD (Dec 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> ...Just looked at the new schedule and it is a bit earlier now (8:02), but still gets you to the mountain after it opens. I'm completely confused why mid-week they're now picking up earlier than weekend for the mountain condo route. Lifts don't open until 9 but they're picking up starting at 7:42? That seems a bit backwards.



This has me scratching my head too


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## Oncefast (Dec 14, 2018)

How long is the boot pack off Lincoln Peak over to Castle rock? Anyone skied those trails recently and how is the coverage up there?


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2018)

Oncefast said:


> How long is the boot pack off Lincoln Peak over to Castle rock? Anyone skied those trails recently and how is the coverage up there?



Coverage is excellent. I skied it yesterday. 20 or so minute hike. Took me a bit longer but I stopped and took a lot of pictures along the way.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Coverage is excellent. I skied it yesterday. 20 or so minute hike. Took me a bit longer but I stopped and took a lot of pictures along the way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Here’s a couple pics





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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> I could be wrong but I believe that the condo associations pay a portion of the shuttle cost



I just looked at my condo association budget and don't see any line items for that unless it is hidden in something else.


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## benski (Dec 15, 2018)

nhskier1969 said:


> I could be wrong but I believe that the condo associations pay a portion of the shuttle cost



I have heard the same thing. Condos and the mountain pay for it. For the mountain it probably keeps the done people out of parking lots. In the Innsbruck area some mountains cover the fee for people dressed to ski on the route to their base. These are large ski area with small parking lots.


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2018)

TSQURD said:


> This has me scratching my head too



A lot of comments to try to reply to.  Sugarbush pays the majority of the private funds used for this service. I believe The Bridges is the only Condo that provides anything. It does receive Federal and State funding and is run by the Green Mountain Transit Authority. Each year we meet with them to negotiate routes. A key thing they look at is ridership. That is why there is no longer a Warren Village route. Not enough people were using it. One reason for some of the hour and route changes reflect our need to get employees to work who live in lodging on the Access Road, German Flats and Route 17.


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## Los (Dec 15, 2018)

Eating a Reuben at Gate House... DELICIOUS!! Just thought i’d share my joy.


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## TSQURD (Dec 15, 2018)

Thanks for the explanation Win. Change is always challenging at first. We did end up taking the shuttle today.  There was a supervisor riding along with the driver, in talking with him he said there would be a 7:40 condo bus on the weekends, but wasn't showing on the schedule as it was part of another route. I did happen to see a shuttle driving up Village Rd before 8:00 this morning, so apparently that is the case.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 15, 2018)

Los said:


> Eating a Reuben at Gate House... DELICIOUS!! Just thought i’d share my joy.



+1! It was delicious. Perhaps it was you I watched enjoying it before I got my own?


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## NYDB (Dec 15, 2018)

Is this craigslist missed connections?

"You had a mouthful of sandwich with russian dressing dripping down your chin.  We met eyes as you wiped the excess sauce from the collar of your stio puffy."

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## Los (Dec 16, 2018)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> +1! It was delicious. Perhaps it was you I watched enjoying it before I got my own?



Ha, maybe! If so, I’m glad I inspired you.


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## Los (Dec 16, 2018)

NY DirtBag said:


> Is this craigslist missed connections?
> 
> "You had a mouthful of sandwich with russian dressing dripping down your chin.  We met eyes as you wiped the excess sauce from the collar of your stio puffy."
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using AlpineZone mobile app



Hahaha gross!


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## WinS (Dec 16, 2018)

We are lucky that we do not experience a lot of ski or snowboard thefts here at Sugarbush, but on Saturday afternoon we had a few people come to guest services to report that their snowboard was missing. We alerted our team. Scott, a member of our facilities team noticed two men who did not appear to be snowboarders carrying boards down to the parking lot. He watched them throw the boards into the back of their vehicle and immediately called guest service with a description of them, their vehicle and their plate number. As they sped away at high speed, we called the State Police and they were pulled over and arrested. There were several boards in their vehicle and two matched the ones reported missing by our guests. The evening news tonight said they are facing grand larceny charges and asked anyone missing a board to call the State Police. Hopefully, this will serve as a deterrent to anyone else thinking of stealing someone’s skis or boards. Great job by both Scott and the State Police.


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## Plowboy (Dec 16, 2018)

http://vtstatepolice.blogspot.com/2018/12/middlesex-barracks-grand-larceny.html


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## slatham (Dec 16, 2018)

WinS said:


> We are lucky that we do not experience a lot of ski or snowboard thefts here at Sugarbush, but on Saturday afternoon we had a few people come to guest services to report that their snowboard was missing. We alerted our team. Scott, a member of our facilities team noticed two men who did not appear to be snowboarders carrying boards down to the parking lot. He watched them throw the boards into the back of their vehicle and immediately called guest service with a description of them, their vehicle and their plate number. As they sped away at high speed, we called the State Police and they were pulled over and arrested. There were several boards in their vehicle and two matched the ones reported missing by our guests. The evening news tonight said they are facing grand larceny charges and asked anyone missing a board to call the State Police. Hopefully, this will serve as a deterrent to anyone else thinking of stealing someone’s skis or boards. Great job by both Scott and the State Police.



Wow, you guys nailed this one, literally!! Well done Win and team. Well done.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 16, 2018)

Well done, and this should be shared across ALL the ski discussion boards in case anyone else lost equipment, or gets any ideas!


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2018)

Nice Work SB crew...

But seriously why do most people not lock their expensive ski equipment to a rack?   Yes if someone really wants my stuff they will cut the lock, but when there is so much low hanging fruit they are definitely moving on to one of the many unsecured pieces of equipment...

Maybe this is an idea for a new thread or bumming of an old thread.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2018)

jimmywilson69 said:


> But seriously *why do most people not lock their expensive ski equipment to a rack?* *Yes if someone really wants my stuff they will cut the lock, but when there is so much low hanging fruit they are definitely moving on to one of the many unsecured pieces of equipment...*



Ski/Snowboard theft happens a lot more than people think, sometimes it's not even reported to the mountain.

I recall one time when I was a kid learning to ski at Shawnee, 2 guys were arrested for stealing skis.  They had a big blue tarp over a pick-up truck, and the bed was decently filled by the time they were caught.


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ski/Snowboard theft happens a lot more than people think, sometimes it's not even reported to the mountain.
> 
> I recall one time when I was a kid learning to ski at Shawnee, 2 guys were arrested for stealing skis.  They had a big blue tarp over a pick-up truck, and the bed was decently filled by the time they were caught.



Wasn't there a thread on here about a guy in a Mercedes stealing skis a few years back as well?


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## NYDB (Dec 17, 2018)

Had a snowboard stolen at Stratton 2 years ago or so.  Put it down for 2 minutes when I picked my kid up from ski school.  Guest Services gave me a police report to fill out and just kept saying "wow, that never happens here.  This is the first one this year.  It was probably someone taking your board by mistake"  I told them I couldn't believe that was true, and why did they have a stack of police incident reports handy there on the front desk.  I asked them if they have video cams they could review and they said they do, but everyone has a black jacket with helmet on.  Its impossible to tell who it is.  And that was that.  

A basic shrug your shoulders to a 1k theft.  

Refreshing to see a Resort like sugarbush taking it so seriously and following through.


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## djd66 (Dec 17, 2018)

WinS said:


> Scott, a member of our facilities team noticed two men who did not appear to be snowboarders carrying boards down to the parking lot.



Great police work and great work by Scott.  What does a snowboarder look like?:grin:


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## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Wasn't there a thread on here about a guy in a Mercedes stealing skis a few years back as well?


Don't remember that one.

I do remember a guy coming on here to report his very expensive Folsom skis being stolen at Loon and how he felt the mountain shared some liability because they didn't have surveillance cameras everywhere to catch thieves.  

I'm 50/50 about when I lock my gear. Depends on where I'm skiing, how busy it is and how new the particular sets of skis I'm using are.  My current gear is pretty worn.  So, I don't lock it too often. 

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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2018)

djd66 said:


> What does a snowboarder look like?:grin:



Stated more correctly, what do they "not" look like?


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## benski (Dec 17, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stated more correctly, what do they "not" look like?



I read that as the guys left without basic clothing like snowboard boots, pants and jacket.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2018)

benski said:


> I read that as the guys left without basic clothing like snowboard boots, pants and jacket.




I feel bad they're from Milton, that town cant catch a break.


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## speden (Dec 17, 2018)

Always love to hear about some crooks getting caught. I hope they do some jail time over it instead of just getting a fine. I used to lock my stuff up regularly, but as it got more outdated I stopped bothering. One time like a bonehead I went home and had left my unlocked skis on the rack overnight and thought, oh man, they'll probably get stolen. Nope, guest services had them in safe keeping the next morning when I went looking for them. Seems like 99.9% of the people at the resorts are honest, but sometimes there are a few bad apples roaming around.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 17, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stated more correctly, what do they "not" look like?



Maybe they were rocking Mad River Glen sweatshirts? [emoji16]


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## 1dog (Dec 17, 2018)

*Skis left*



speden said:


> Always love to hear about some crooks getting caught. I hope they do some jail time over it instead of just getting a fine. I used to lock my stuff up regularly, but as it got more outdated I stopped bothering. One time like a bonehead I went home and had left my unlocked skis on the rack overnight and thought, oh man, they'll probably get stolen. Nope, guest services had them in safe keeping the next morning when I went looking for them. Seems like 99.9% of the people at the resorts are honest, but sometimes there are a few bad apples roaming around.



3 years ago at Tuckermans , huge day, blue bird, snow skiable all the way down Sherburne Trail to the lodge at Pinkham.

My 5 year old Samoyed climbed Hillmans with me even tho I implored him to stay -no luck - my other Sammie couldn't make the steep slope so had no choice and waited till I summitted and skied down to base of Hillmans. Not Polar. So we launch the small headwall at the  'V' entrance and I took 5 or 6 turns, stopped to make sure he was coming. . . .no luck. Skied all the way to Ho Jo's and then expected he'd finally come. He didn't, I had to hike up and get him - few steps at a time.

He had ( I didn't know at the time) bad premature arthritis. 3 hours later I get down to Pinkham with no less than 50-60 people justy hanging out tailgating and sitting on picnic tables - asked them to watch Polar and my gear because I had to park at least 1/2 mile down rt 16. 
He couldn't walk any more. Had to heave him into wagon back - drove home, next day realized I left my gear - skis, poles, out at table. Called Pinkham ' yep, got em right here. 

didn't pick up until late July.


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## djd66 (Dec 17, 2018)

MorningWoods said:


> Maybe they were rocking Mad River Glen sweatshirts? [emoji16]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That is funny MW!


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## Not Sure (Dec 17, 2018)

I never lock my skis although I separate them on the rack but have a look around to see if anyone is watching me first.  Further apart on weekdays though . 

How do you lock a Snowboard that the lock couldn't be skid off? Hole in the tip or tail ? 

I can still see the facial expression on one of my friends that had his skis stolen in 1978 ..... Sucks 

I remember some time ago "Killington  maybe" ?  putting out bait skis with transmitters on them .


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## cdskier (Dec 17, 2018)

I used to lock my skis all the time when I skied in NJ and the poconos. I don’t think I’ve ever locked them at sugarbush though. I rarely see anyone lock their skis here.


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## Julius (Dec 17, 2018)

Hey guys & gals I thought I'd introduce myself.  I'm a long time Sugarbusher and log a healthy number of days on the hill like many of you here.  Hi. 

I recall years ago somewhere in the 90s one night at the old base lodge bar around closing.  It was snowing at a good clip, visibility was low but you could see the spotlight shining below the outer deck for those that remember.  I had a brand new pair of red skis that day with a bit of reflective white.  Just happened that my girlfriend at the time saw a kid carrying two sets of skis and one caught her eye.

Before we knew what was going on she was out the door, around and down the corner and in process of tackling the guy (with reinforcement soon behind).  The guy was so startled he dropped and ran.  I bought her another beer and we have been together ever since. 

Never had another issue nor worry with not locking my skis since.


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## WinS (Dec 17, 2018)

The Heaven’s Gate lift will be closed tomorrow and the entire area will be closed including hiking over to CR. We are towing an excavator up in the early A.M. In order to repair the broken snowmaking pipe on Ripcord. It would be too dangerous to have anyone in the area. Hopefully, we can get in finished tomorrow and reopen that area on Wednesday.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 18, 2018)

Julius said:


> Hey guys & gals I thought I'd introduce myself.  I'm a long time Sugarbusher and log a healthy number of days on the hill like many of you here.  Hi.
> 
> I recall years ago somewhere in the 90s one night at the old base lodge bar around closing.  It was snowing at a good clip, visibility was low but you could see the spotlight shining below the outer deck for those that remember.  I had a brand new pair of red skis that day with a bit of reflective white.  Just happened that my girlfriend at the time saw a kid carrying two sets of skis and one caught her eye.
> 
> ...



That’s a good woman! [emoji109] 


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2018)

WinS said:


> The Heaven’s Gate lift will be closed tomorrow and the entire area will be closed including hiking over to CR. We are towing an excavator up in the early A.M. In order to repair the broken snowmaking pipe on Ripcord. It would be too dangerous to have anyone in the area. Hopefully, we can get in finished tomorrow and reopen that area on Wednesday.



Good luck, at least it looks like they can come across the Spills traverse to get to it. Slippery and steep no matter how you cut it


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 18, 2018)

Back in the late 90's I had my snowboard stolen at Haystack (when it was still Haystack) while packing up to go home.  Reported it to the mountain, who took a full report.  Later that week got a call the mountain had found my board & they shipped it to me-- I was quite impressed.  I think someone thought my piece of garbage board was much nicer than it was, took it out for a ride, and then brought it back.

Never lock my gear at SB, and probably never will.  When skiing with friends at someplace new, will frequently swap skis & put our unmatched pairs in different locations when heading inside.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2018)

The oft-cited, _ "my skis are 4 years old so I dont bother locking them"_ thing is a total fallacy.

The average person or gang stealing skis doesn't know the difference between the 2019 Rossignol Soul 7 model from a cheaply mass-produced straight to box store XYZ model from 2015.  They're not stealing skis due to a deep affinity they have for the sport.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> The oft-cited, _ "my skis are 4 years old so I dont bother locking them"_ thing is a total fallacy.
> 
> The average person or gang stealing skis doesn't know the difference between the 2019 Rossignol Soul 7 model from a cheaply mass-produced straight to box store XYZ model from 2015.  They're not stealing skis due to a deep affinity they have for the sport.


They might not know that, but they probably do at least look to see what condition the skis are in.  If there are two sets of unlocked skis next to each other and one set looks almost new and the other is full of scratches, which do you think they'll grab? 

That's my basic justification.  But I do tend to lock my gear about 50% of the time. 

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## Smellytele (Dec 18, 2018)

On any given day I never see more than 1 or 2 pairs locked up if any.


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## jaybird (Dec 18, 2018)

We usually mix gear and separate. Rarely a problem, other than finding them after a couple stiff drinks. 2 years ago walked out of lodge at K apres apres to find a crook holding a friends skis and 2 pair of crap rental skis. We Confronted him. He was apologetic but was definitely there with a purpose. Watched him walk down to a waiting van with a couple pair. Photo of the NY license plate went to Sherriff. The guy got picked up in Rutland .. turns out they had a dozen or more boards and stuff in the van. Sign of the times.

Many years ago .. midday .. went to the rack and my skis were gone .. was pissed. Reported it. Hung out for a couple hours waiting for the rest of my party to finish their day. On leaving, found my skis in a different rack .. way away from where I had placed them earlier. Bizarro .. musta been too long for the guy, or the wax wasn't right.


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## slatham (Dec 18, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> The oft-cited, _ "my skis are 4 years old so I dont bother locking them"_ thing is a total fallacy.
> 
> The average person or gang stealing skis doesn't know the difference between the 2019 Rossignol Soul 7 model from a cheaply mass-produced straight to box store XYZ model from 2015.  They're not stealing skis due to a deep affinity they have for the sport.



Part of this logic is that after 4 years your gear is beat up and ready for replacement so your not as concerned if someone swipes them and forces you to buy new gear. Whereas a brand spanking new pair of skis (or board) you'll be a bit more careful with.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2018)

slatham said:


> Part of this logic is that after 4 years your gear is beat up and ready for replacement so your not as concerned if someone swipes them and forces you to buy new gear. Whereas a brand spanking new pair of skis (or board) you'll be a bit more careful with.


This too

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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> On any given day I never see more than 1 or 2 pairs locked up if any.



It was easier when most resorts provided Ski Key racks.  Those things are fantastic, not the least of which because the locking mechanism is so small it's easily carried while skiing.  Sadly, many places got rid of them.   

 Smuggs still has them.  Whiteface still has them.  Jay Peak got rid of them several years ago. Some places like Gore, still maintain 1 or 2 racks for them, but far fewer than they once had.


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## Not Sure (Dec 18, 2018)

A long time ago I walked out of the lodge to find a guy holding up what looked like my skis. I was almost in full windup to kick his shin when I looked over to see an identical set ...same size ,same bindings ,same leashes ...yea leashes before brakes LOL.


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## Not Sure (Dec 18, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> It was easier when most resorts provided Ski Key racks.  Those things are fantastic, not the least of which because the locking mechanism is so small it's easily carried while skiing.  Sadly, many places got rid of them.
> 
> Smuggs still has them.  Whiteface still has them.  Jay Peak got rid of them several years ago. Some places like Gore, still maintain 1 or 2 racks for them, but far fewer than they once had.



Those were great but a lot of people used them without locking them but faked it by almost closing the mechanism .


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## Smellytele (Dec 18, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> It was easier when most resorts provided Ski Key racks.  Those things are fantastic, not the least of which because the locking mechanism is so small it's easily carried while skiing.  Sadly, many places got rid of them.
> 
> Smuggs still has them.  Whiteface still has them.  Jay Peak got rid of them several years ago. Some places like Gore, still maintain 1 or 2 racks for them, but far fewer than they once had.



Bretton Woods still has them


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## skiur (Dec 19, 2018)

Been skiing since 02, never locked em, never had a problem......let me go find some wood to knock on.....my skiing is all in New England though, if I was skiing the Poconos I don't think I would leave my skis unattended.


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 19, 2018)

Win, with Heavens Gate and the Castlerock hike-to access reopened, was the snowmaking repair successful?


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## HowieT2 (Dec 19, 2018)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Those were great but a lot of people used them without locking them but faked it by almost closing the mechanism .



SB had them for a number of years.  Nobody locked their skis on them.  Literally, never saw skis locked up on them.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 19, 2018)

I think the problem with something like Ski Key is end users are often reluctant to buy a product unless they know it's available most places.  

I'm fine with the pocket sized $15 cable lock I purchased years ago.  I don't really have a need to buy something else that can only be used in a specific product.  

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## tumbler (Dec 19, 2018)

Ski at SB  and I never lock anything.  Surprisingly we have had multiple sets of poles taken over the years.  Some we chalk up to kids taking the wrong pair in their ski groups but our adult size ones have walked.  They are nothing fancy.  But I will not be the person walking into the lodge with my poles, that cracks me up every time.


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## WinS (Dec 19, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Win, with Heavens Gate and the Castlerock hike-to access reopened, was the snowmaking repair successful?


Unfortunately, the contractor could not get up the slopes so we are going to get a different wide tract excavator and try again. HG and CR were open today. Hopefully, we can get this done before the Friday rain softens everything up and making it much harder to get up. This is a very challenging place to repair.


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## jaybird (Dec 19, 2018)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Those were great but a lot of people used them without locking them but faked it by almost closing the mechanism .



All well and good until someone does you a 'favor' and locks it for you ..


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 19, 2018)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, the contractor could not get up the slopes so we are going to get a different wide tract excavator and try again. HG and CR were open today. Hopefully, we can get this done before the Friday rain softens everything up and making it much harder to get up. This is a very challenging place to repair.


As always, thanks for the updates.  Good luck, we're all rooting for success!


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## HowieT2 (Dec 19, 2018)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, the contractor could not get up the slopes so we are going to get a different wide tract excavator and try again. HG and CR were open today. Hopefully, we can get this done before the Friday rain softens everything up and making it much harder to get up. This is a very challenging place to repair.



interesting.  I guess those excavators have different tracks than the snow cats.  Kind of like summer vs. winter tires.


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## tumbler (Dec 19, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> interesting.  I guess those excavators have different tracks than the snow cats.  Kind of like summer vs. winter tires.



It's like a racing tire vs a winter tire.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 19, 2018)

Aren't leaks always in the absolute worst possible spot?

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## slatham (Dec 19, 2018)

I am by no means an expert, but it seems to me groomers have wider tracts, lower center of gravity and are probably lighter than an excavator. And the Jester work road is pretty steep and with with snow, very much the challenge for an excavator. Soften the snow and forget it. Sunday won't be soft!


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## tumbler (Dec 19, 2018)

slatham said:


> I am by no means an expert, but it seems to me groomers have wider tracts, lower center of gravity and are probably lighter than an excavator. And the Jester work road is pretty steep and with with snow, very much the challenge for an excavator. Soften the snow and forget it. Sunday won't be soft!



Cats have around 3" metal tracks that dig into the snow plus sharp points that give traction on ice.  They are also connected with rubber bands that let snow through.  Excavator tracks are solid metal with maybe 1/2" square raised tracks for traction.  I operated both on a hill and the excavator is not fun.


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## tumbler (Dec 19, 2018)

On another note- who is picking the trails to be highlighted in the snow report?   "Start your morning off with clutch turns on Spring Road and Birdland."  Love the Spring Road fresh 'roy!  (Yes, I get that it was supposed to be Spring Fling)


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## jaybird (Dec 19, 2018)

Did sleeper get fixed..?
Please and thanks.


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## cdskier (Dec 19, 2018)

jaybird said:


> Did sleeper get fixed..?
> Please and thanks.



What was wrong with sleeper?


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## Plowboy (Dec 20, 2018)

Operating an excavator snow and ice is a challenge. Been operating a 49k excavator on snow and ice for the past 2 weeks. Best is to dig down to dirt, but that is not an option on a ski trail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjNnstHCpZk


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## cdskier (Dec 20, 2018)

Plowboy said:


> Operating an excavator snow and ice is a challenge. Been operating a 49k excavator on snow and ice for the past 2 weeks. Best is to dig down to dirt, but that is not an option on a ski trail.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjNnstHCpZk



On ripcord itself they did dig a path down to dirt from the top down to the break. Today they had covered that path back up and groomed it flat (somewhat of a pleasant surprise as I wasn’t expecting that and got to be the first one down it). I have a feeling they didn’t fix the pipe yet though as I didn’t see any signs of dirt being dug up unless they covered it back up really well


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2018)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, the contractor could not get up the slopes so we are going to get a different wide tract excavator and try again. HG and CR were open today. Hopefully, we can get this done before the Friday rain softens everything up and making it much harder to get up. This is a very challenging place to repair.



This was my earlier post.  We will not get up to Ripcord with a different excavator until after the New Year. We had an incredibly challenging set of conditions for snowmaking last night.  The temps were all over the place with warmer layers hitting the mid-mountain and fluctuating temperatures everywhere throughout the night.  We shut down in the early am and will be off until later on Saturday when temperatures allow snowmaking once again.   Sleeper came in very well and Hot Shot is close to being final.  It is likely that after the Warm-Up and rain we will move up to North Lynx and finish Hot Shot.  Then we will look to see where we need touching up so we have the mountain in the best shape possible when it starts to get very busy on the 27th.  At ME we will need work at the Top of Rim Rum, Elbow and Northstar and then assess the damage to the other trails.  We will also want to get on Looking Good and Clifffs as soon as we can. As you all can see from the weather stations we are in for some nasty weather beginning early tomorrow morning and lasting into Saturday. Likely it begins will some freezing rain before turning to all rain and very high winds.  We will be closing the natural terrain tomorrow and maybe Saturday to preserve it as best as possible. We could see a bit of snow at the end of this event as it cools down later Saturday and anything would really help. It really has been a great five weeks, and we will be back with 80% of the season remaining. Rain of Shine ME is opening tomorrow morning at 8am  (wind permitting).


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## jaybird (Dec 20, 2018)

Thank you for totally submerging Sleeper.
Snow surface everywhere was Primo today.
That Ripcord issue does look challenging :-(
Your team Rocks !


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## Julius (Dec 21, 2018)

Certainly a different day on the hill today vs yesterday.  Riding VH lift was like taking a convertible through a long slow car wash with the top down but mtn seems to be putting up a good fight for now. 

Any day on the hill is better than none.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 21, 2018)

Waitsfield webcam showing a pretty full mad river


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> Waitsfield webcam showing a pretty full mad river



The mountain has held up well so far, but morning will tell. The temps peak overnight and then start coming down so will will be back with snowmaking tomorrow afternoon or evening.  High winds tonight and some more rain likely. And, yes, the Mad River is raging.


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## AbominableSnowman (Dec 21, 2018)

Julius said:


> Certainly a different day on the hill today vs yesterday.  Riding VH lift was like taking a convertible through a long slow car wash with the top down but mtn seems to be putting up a good fight for now.
> 
> Any day on the hill is better than none.



Mt Ellen was in surprisingly good shape as well today.  Snow was eminently edge-able, with decent coverage.

Captain Ahab's snowmaking crew had apparently been busy on Straight Shot earlier, as "Win's wet white whales" (copyright 2018, 2019) were wetter than usual, yet quite fun to ski.    With any luck (and a bit of compassion on the part of Mother Nature), they will help to ensure coverage for the upcoming week in that area of the mountain.

Now, for two or three storms in a row that drop (at least) 4-5" of snow each....


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## Los (Dec 22, 2018)

I found conditions pretty rough this morning... (no fault of sugarbush of course). But fortunately the rain has turned to snow, I think earlier than expected...


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## WinS (Dec 22, 2018)

Los said:


> I found conditions pretty rough this morning... (no fault of sugarbush of course). But fortunately the rain has turned to snow, I think earlier than expected...



Conditions improved a lot as the day went on.  My worst run was around 9:15 and things got better from there. About two inches of snow is mixing in very well, and tonight's grooming should have those trials skiing nicely tomorrows am


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## benski (Dec 22, 2018)

WinS said:


> Conditions improved a lot as the day went on.  My worst run was around 9:15 and things got better from there. About two inches of snow is mixing in very well, and tonight's grooming should have those trials skiing nicely tomorrows am



I assumed 9:15 would be pretty close to iciest at conditions possible.


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2018)

I couldn't convince myself to leave my condo yesterday to ski in the rain after 14 other mid-week days this December which were generally speaking quite good (with a few really good ones). This ties last year's total for me at this same point (although last year all 14 days were at SB while this year it is 13 at SB and 1 at MRG). This morning I left to head back to NJ. It was switching over to snow right as I was leaving at 9:30.

Overall I'm quite happy with my season so far. I won't be back up until the weekend after New Year's and am looking forward to a snowy rest of the season!


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2018)

I hate skiing in the r&#$*n.  Depressing.

heading up tomorrow.


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## tumbler (Dec 23, 2018)

I was out at 8:30 and it was a bit challenging but loosened with each run. The snow helped a lot and Steins was skiing great. Then later in the afternoon as it got colder everything started to freeze. A pretty good day all things considered. I hope for big grooming plan.


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## WinS (Dec 23, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I was out at 8:30 and it was a bit challenging but loosened with each run. The snow helped a lot and Steins was skiing great. Then later in the afternoon as it got colder everything started to freeze. A pretty good day all things considered. I hope for big grooming plan.



Groomed a lot, but left a few trails to drain a bit more. Turned the guns on Upper Snowball and Spring Fling to dust them up so that is where to be first thing. Will turn off early in the day and move back to Hot Shot and North Lynx most likely. Staying on Rim Run at ME until that is finished.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 24, 2018)

Mt Ellen skid better than expected today.   Light snow most of the day and I hit a bunch of natural snow trails - Bravo, Exterminator, Encore and Tumbler that were a lot of fun without any moguls and good snow cover.


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## benski (Dec 24, 2018)

WinS said:


> Groomed a lot, but left a few trails to drain a bit more. Turned the guns on Upper Snowball and Spring Fling to dust them up so that is where to be first thing. Will turn off early in the day and move back to Hot Shot and North Lynx most likely. Staying on Rim Run at ME until that is finished.



Spring Fling?  That was all death cookies. Worst groomer on Super Bravo and Heavens gate. Paradise and Spillsville were actually in good shape. It was snowing pretty this afternoon.


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## WinS (Dec 25, 2018)

benski said:


> Spring Fling?  That was all death cookies. Worst groomer on Super Bravo and Heavens gate. Paradise and Spillsville were actually in good shape. It was snowing pretty this afternoon.





Yes. We winched it last night so it should be a lot better this morning.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 26, 2018)

Good skiing the last 2 days.  The ungroomed natural terrain was actually really good.  3-4” on paradise which we lapped multiple times.  Domino was good.  Off piste was not good.  The dust on crust did nothing for me.  Hiked over to castlerock yesterday and middle earth was well worth it.

fwiw-went to the pitcher inn/tracks which was on of my favorite places in the world.  No complaints about the service or the food, but the menu, to me, was totally unenticing.  Nothing I wanted to eat.  So disappointing. Kind of how I felt about the common man. Won’t be going back there other than maybe for an after dinner drink.


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## WinS (Dec 26, 2018)

Blowing snow on Birch and Sunrise and will hopefully open North Lynx on Friday once done there. Also turned the guns on Stein's last night. I just skied it around 11:30 under the towers on skier's left and it was terrific. Will stay there until we have to turn off last Thursday or Friday am. The next weather event is not great but much better than last Friday, and we might even get a net gain of snow this time. Ringers crossed. The top of ME is bare so we need to get snowmaking on Upper Rim run to open there.  Finishing on Northstar and then getting onto Cruiser which was actually skiing nicely on skier left yesterday.


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## tumbler (Dec 27, 2018)

I was wondering why Summit wasn’t running, I guess no snow up there. Kinda strange. Are people hiking to FIS and black diamond?


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## WinS (Dec 27, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I was wondering why Summit wasn’t running, I guess no snow up there. Kinda strange. Are people hiking to FIS and black diamond?



It is wind  scoured up there.  Need to make snow or get some. Rocks showing on Rim Run. When we turn on we will likely go to Cruiser and get Upper Rim Run after that.  FIS and Black Diamond are not very good now.


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## tumbler (Dec 27, 2018)

WinS said:


> It is wind  scoured up there.  Need to make snow or get some. Rocks showing on Rim Run. When we turn on we will likely go to Cruiser and get Upper Rim Run after that.  FIS and Black Diamond are not very good now.



Did snowmaking not start at rim run and panarama and work down to elbow? And no snowmaking on FIS yet?  Out of curiousity, how much does the park snowmaking take away from the rest of the hill? Would have thought RR and fis would be done by now.


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## tumbler (Dec 27, 2018)

Skiing very nice all things considered at LP. Steins has been fun and a blend of improving groomers and some natural trails has been fun.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Did snowmaking not start at rim run and panarama and work down to elbow? And no snowmaking on FIS yet?  Out of curiousity, how much does the park snowmaking take away from the rest of the hill? Would have thought RR and fis would be done by now.



Is that your post/thread on the STE Facebook group by any chance on this topic?


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## benski (Dec 27, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Is that your post/thread on the STE Facebook group by any chance on this topic?



what is this group?


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## WinS (Dec 28, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Is that your post/thread on the STE Facebook group by any chance on this topic?



We make snow where the best temperatures are. Historically, one needs to work from top to bottom but if we have the chance as in this year, we will take advantage of temps to make snow lower on the mountain first. Before last Friday natural snow was covering the upper mountain. Yes, making snow on both Inverness and The Terrain Park uses a lot of gallons. I think this is the first time we have had a full park  on opening day with 52 feautures.


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## tumbler (Dec 28, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Is that your post/thread on the STE Facebook group by any chance on this topic?



No, I have no idea what that is and I’m not on Facebook


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## djd66 (Dec 28, 2018)

tumbler said:


> No, I have no idea what that is and I’m not on Facebook



Must have been the Russians

Personally- I could care less about parks or features. Call me an old fart, but I just don’t get the idea of scraping my skis against some metal pipe.   I would much prefer that they open up all the skiable terrain before pumping 1000’s of gallons of water to build all the ramps and what not.


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## WinS (Dec 28, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Must have been the Russians&#55357;&#56860;
> 
> Personally- I could care less about parks or features. Call me an old fart, but I just don’t get the idea of scraping my skis against some metal pipe.   I would much prefer that they open up all the skiable terrain before pumping 1000’s of gallons of water to build all the ramps and what not.



You may not but we have a lot of younger guests who are also important for our success who do. We stopped building a pipe years ago which required a lot more snowmaking.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2018)

tumbler said:


> No, I have no idea what that is and I’m not on Facebook



STE is a "Ski The East" group on Facebook. Someone literally asked almost the exact same question you did on there nearly the same time you posted here with that question about snowmaking on the upper mountain at ME.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Personally- I could care less about parks or features. Call me an old fart, but I just don’t get the idea of scraping my skis against some metal pipe.   I would much prefer that they open up all the skiable terrain before pumping 1000’s of gallons of water to build all the ramps and what not.



I'm not old and I don't understand the desire to ski features in a terrain park either. I'd also rather see at least the main skiable terrain covered first, although I do also understand why Sugarbush chooses to create a park since there are people that are into that sort of thing that you can't just ignore.


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## djd66 (Dec 28, 2018)

WinS said:


> You may not but we have a lot of younger guests who are also important for our success who do. We stopped building a pipe years ago which required a lot more snowmaking.



I was referring to the those rail thingies,... not a half pipe.  Just my opinion


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## WinS (Dec 28, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I was referring to the those rail thingies,... not a half pipe.  Just my opinion



Understood.


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2018)

considering all the terrain that is open, I hardly think rim run, FIS and Black Diamond are a huge issue not being open.  Even if they were, how do you think they would ski today or all next week for that matter.  I am all for the parks and the parks crew.  So many kids love the park and if the kids want to ski then the parents get to ski.  Every major resort has a park and the data suggests it is a good investment.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2018)

Hawk said:


> considering all the terrain that is open, I hardly think rim run, FIS and Black Diamond are a huge issue not being open.  Even if they were, how do you think they would ski today or all next week for that matter.  I am all for the parks and the parks crew.  So many kids love the park and if the kids want to ski then the parents get to ski.  Every major resort has a park and the data suggests it is a good investment.



Still it seems odd not having the mountain open top-to-bottom.  I get that the summit is quite exposed, but I would’ve figured that they would’ve had that more than well covered for the season already.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## benski (Dec 28, 2018)

And it should hold snow well.  It used to be the spring skiing venue.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Still it seems odd not having the mountain open top-to-bottom.  I get that the summit is quite exposed, but I would’ve figured that they would’ve had that more than well covered for the season already.



I think you hit on an important point. While Rim Run itself is not a big deal from a "how much do you really ski it" perspective, it is a big deal from a "perception" perspective. SB regulars can easily say "well you're not missing much" especially if FIS and Black Diamond wouldn't be in good shape anyway as Hawk pointed out, but to a more casual "outsider" what they will say is "gee, why isn't SB top to bottom at ME when pretty much everyone else is already." There were already people throwing out rumors that SB has budget issues and that's the reason they haven't blown snow at the top yet. I fully get the "we blew down low while we had temps instead of starting at the top" strategy, but that's hard to convey to the general public that doesn't read forums like this and only looks at a trail report and sees an unopened summit.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2018)

benski said:


> And it should hold snow well.  It used to be the spring skiing venue.



I don't particular agree with this. That summit is pretty exposed and natural unpacked/unskied snow can easily be scoured by wind. Hell just look at the difference at Lincoln Peak many times at the true summit and how wind-scoured and bare it can be up there meanwhile there's plenty of snow just 50 or so feet below the summit at LP at the top of HG.


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## slatham (Dec 28, 2018)

Call me old fashion (and ignorant of current SB economics) but the priority used to be Rim, Elbow, FIS and Looking Good, before other lower mountain terrain, especially Reimergasse. If I was a Mt Ellen skier pass holder I’d be upset that the vast majority of deep base snowmaking terrain was either often off limits (Inverness for GMVS) or  not a “ski trail” (Reimergasse), and none rated Black. It’s a bit much for me, even though I am a huge fan of Win, to see the summit of Mt Ellen go from an early/late season meca to not even being open, in a year with lots of snow and cold spells, by the new Year. I guess Mt Ellen is racers and park rats first, at the expense of old fashion down the fall line skiers?


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## WWF-VT (Dec 28, 2018)

Anyone else commenting in this thread actually ski Mt Ellen ?  The best open terrain at Sugarbush has been on natural snow trails at Mt Ellen including Exterminator, Bravo, Cliffs, Hammerhead, Encore and Tumbler.  No one is bitching that we aren't skiing the summit chair.


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## benski (Dec 28, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Anyone else commenting in this thread actually ski Mt Ellen ?  The best open terrain at Sugarbush has been on natural snow trails at Mt Ellen including Exterminator, Bravo, Cliffs, Hammerhead, Encore and Tumbler.  No one is bitching that we aren't skiing the summit chair.



True. Summit is not the best. I ski half the time I go to Mt Ellen. North ridge and Inverness alone is easily an excellent ski area.


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## flakeydog (Dec 28, 2018)

I agree the park is needed.  People seek this out when they decide where to ski.  But... the summit is needed also.  Highest legit lift serviced skiing in the state, best view around.  People like to say they skied from "the top".  They want their money's worth.  Those of us in the know realize that 90% of the terrain is accessible from north ridge (and that is really the lift to ski on) but the optics are not good if we are not top-to-bottom. Just my 2 cents.


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## Los (Dec 28, 2018)

Hawk said:


> considering all the terrain that is open, I hardly think rim run, FIS and Black Diamond are a huge issue not being open.  Even if they were, how do you think they would ski today or all next week for that matter.  I am all for the parks and the parks crew.  So many kids love the park and if the kids want to ski then the parents get to ski.  Every major resort has a park and the data suggests it is a good investment.



Agree with your first two sentences. Could not disagree more with your opinion of the parks. I’d say that at least 80-90% of the “kids” who “love” the park are straight up adult male thugs who have absolutely zero respect for anything or anyone. That’s the demographic being catered to; and it is the demographic antithesis of “family-friendly” (not to mention horrifyingly incongruent with the adaptive skiing program that uses the sunshine quad as their main lift).


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## Julius (Dec 28, 2018)

Nvmind, deleted.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 28, 2018)

Los said:


> Agree with your first two sentences. Could not disagree more with your opinion of the parks. I’d say that at least 80-90% of the “kids” who “love” the park are straight up adult male thugs who have absolutely zero respect for anything or anyone. That’s the demographic being catered to; and it is the demographic antithesis of “family-friendly” (not to mention horrifyingly incongruent with the adaptive skiing program that uses the sunshine quad as their main lift).



Thanks for labeling my kids and their friends as "adult male thugs".


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Anyone else commenting in this thread actually ski Mt Ellen ?  The best open terrain at Sugarbush has been on natural snow trails at Mt Ellen including Exterminator, Bravo, Cliffs, Hammerhead, Encore and Tumbler.  No one is bitching that we aren't skiing the summit chair.



Right. This backs up my earlier statement. Most regulars don't see a lack of summit access at this point an issue. The problem is the negative perception it creates for "outsiders" (for lack of a better term).



flakeydog said:


> I agree the park is needed.  People seek this out when they decide where to ski.  But... the summit is needed also.  Highest legit lift serviced skiing in the state, best view around.  People like to say they skied from "the top".  They want their money's worth.  Those of us in the know realize that 90% of the terrain is accessible from north ridge (and that is really the lift to ski on) but the optics are not good if we are not top-to-bottom. Just my 2 cents.



I think you explained the point I was trying to make better than I did. I agree with everything you said though. I love lapping North Ridge.


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## ss20 (Dec 28, 2018)

Los said:


> Agree with your first two sentences. Could not disagree more with your opinion of the parks. I’d say that at least 80-90% of the “kids” who “love” the park are straight up adult male thugs who have absolutely zero respect for anything or anyone. That’s the demographic being catered to; and it is the demographic antithesis of “family-friendly” (not to mention horrifyingly incongruent with the adaptive skiing program that uses the sunshine quad as their main lift).



Wow...lotta fighting words in that post...:lol:

In my experience, the park skiers/riders are some of the most dedicated to the sport.  I have a lot of respect for early season when mountains set up temporary parks on ski trails.  There's always people hiking up to lap 3 or 4 small rails/boxes.  That's pretty hardcore, and that's coming from someone who does the WROD each October/November.


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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Still it seems odd not having the mountain open top-to-bottom.  I get that the summit is quite exposed, but I would’ve figured that they would’ve had that more than well covered for the season already.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


The thing is that there is only so much water and air they can use over there.  In the past I have always championed up grades, more compressors, more pumps, more pipe and guns.  But now I have given in to the new Philosophy that SB has embraced.  I can not affect it so I am going with it.  With that in mind they can only blow one trail at a time.  The GMVS Trails come first, then the long connection trails from the mid mountain to the bottom, then trails like Elbow and lower rim run.  Then comes the choice of the park and other trails  They had good snow all November and Early December and then Rain.  They made the decision to not do upper Rim Run and it is now not in play.  At the time it probably seemed to be a good decision I am sure.  Weather is a sh*ty thing.  The whole mountain was skiing great before it opened.


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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2018)

Los said:


> Agree with your first two sentences. Could not disagree more with your opinion of the parks. I’d say that at least 80-90% of the “kids” who “love” the park are straight up adult male thugs who have absolutely zero respect for anything or anyone. That’s the demographic being catered to; and it is the demographic antithesis of “family-friendly” (not to mention horrifyingly incongruent with the adaptive skiing program that uses the sunshine quad as their main lift).


You must not ski the park at North very much.  That does not describe the people that frequent the sugarbush parks at all.  Also I agree that there are a huge group that are dedicated to that sport and are there all the time.  You cannot look at the ski areas in NY or Mt Snow, Okemo and the rest down South and compare them to Sugarbush.  The people up here are dramatically different.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 29, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Right. This backs up my earlier statement. Most regulars don't see a lack of summit access at this point an issue. The problem is the negative perception it creates for "outsiders" (for lack of a better term).



How many "outsiders" are at Ellen, though?  I would think most of those people are based at Lincoln Peak. And furthermore, they would have all booked their vacations weeks/months ago.  Any loss of traffic from people who are turned off by no Summit Quad would have to be people who are both planning their trips days out or the day of, and also are not familiar with the trail layout and the existence of North Ridge.  That seems like a vanishingly small subset of Sugarbush's potential traffic.


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## flakeydog (Dec 29, 2018)

Ouch on the terrain park hate.... I am not a park rat by any means but wow... anyway, smart enough to know where a significant part of my bread is buttered.  Gotta have the park, it is part of the business and sugarbush has done a good job of attracting that demographic as they should.  You could look at places in canada (and some here in the states) where you need to sign up and adhere to the rules (helmets, courtesy, not being a total douche bag, etc are enforced) but this is America, we have a right to be this way as long as business tolerates this behavior.  Society doesn't make the rules, revenue does.  Only when behavior diminishes revenue does behavior change.  Keep the parks and the related expense, it is still a good investment.

I still think that summit should be open.  Risk was taken on making snow down low, bad luck prevailed.  This is why the ski industry is so hard.  You never catch a break and arm-chair a-holes (like most of us here) are not shy about chiming in.  Dont worry, I will be at the Bush for the next few days enjoying whatever there is to ski on.  My addiction at this point has no cure.  I'm a lifer!


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## dustyroads (Dec 30, 2018)

Dedicated skiers or thugs. It's additional income for the Bush and benefits  other areas of the mountain. So as long as it attracts skiers to an area I don't care to go and away to the areas I go, then I'm for it.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 30, 2018)

I’m blessed to have a family of dedicated skiers, but i imagine there are quite a few families where there r one or more park rats who need to be accommodated in planning where to ski.  Can’t have little Johnny refusing to go to sugarbush because there is no park for him to play in.


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## spring_mountain_high (Dec 30, 2018)

As a dad whose son is a long-time, frequent client of Vermont Adaptive, I can state unequivocally that we have never experienced any thuggery at the terrain park, on or around the sunnyside lift or any of the surrounding terrain...in fact quite the opposite, everyone is very cool and accommodating and my son loves to watch people hit jumps and rails while we ride the lift.

Would also like to take this opportunity to publicly thank Win and Sugarbush for their continued support of the program, especially the new facility, as it makes all the difference in getting our family out to ski.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2018)

flakeydog said:


> I agree the park is needed.  People seek this out when they decide where to ski.  But... the summit is needed also.  Highest legit lift serviced skiing in the state, best view around.  People like to say they skied from "the top".  They want their money's worth.  Those of us in the know realize that 90% of the terrain is accessible from north ridge (and that is really the lift to ski on) but the optics are not good if we are not top-to-bottom. Just my 2 cents.



Exactly.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2018)

Hawk said:


> The thing is that there is only so much water and air they can use over there.  In the past I have always championed up grades, more compressors, more pumps, more pipe and guns.  But now I have given in to the new Philosophy that SB has embraced.  I can not affect it so I am going with it.  With that in mind they can only blow one trail at a time.  The GMVS Trails come first, then the long connection trails from the mid mountain to the bottom, then trails like Elbow and lower rim run.  Then comes the choice of the park and other trails  They had good snow all November and Early December and then Rain.  They made the decision to not do upper Rim Run and it is now not in play.  At the time it probably seemed to be a good decision I am sure.  Weather is a sh*ty thing.  The whole mountain was skiing great before it opened.



What is this "new" philosophy exactly?  They never had a problem opening the main runs, top to bottom, at ME in the past.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 30, 2018)

FWIW...Summit chair ran today with Rim Run the only open option


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## jaybird (Dec 31, 2018)

Fwiw .. Little Johnny doesn't call the shots in this household.
Sugarbush does a fine job given the restrictions they face.

Have a Happy New Year !


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## skifree (Dec 31, 2018)

my college age kids and friends are park rats.
They are all respectful and a great addition to the mountain.
I enjoy watching them and actually jealous I can't do what they can.
Replacing broken equipment and constant tuning is another thing.


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## benski (Jan 2, 2019)

Win, when will Ripcord’s snowmaking be fixed. I  skiing all week.


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## WinS (Jan 2, 2019)

benski said:


> Win, when will Ripcord’s snowmaking be fixed. I  skiing all week.



Unfortunately, the excavator we need can't  be here until next week, so it won't  happen this week. Looks like we are in for a few inches of natural snow tonight, so that might be enough to open it again.  Grooming out Sunrise tonight, so some freshies on top of that could be sweet in the morning and Morning Star could be really nice too as it has a great base.  We will be winching Upper Organgrinder tonight as well.


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## Hawk (Jan 2, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> What is this "new" philosophy exactly?  They never had a problem opening the main runs, top to bottom, at ME in the past.



The new Philosophy is not to upgrade and grow the capacity via larger equipment.  Instead it's buy more efficient stuff so they can blow the same amount with less energy thus conserving resources.  It is my belief that the new guns do not blow as much and as good as the old guns with more air.  But Win and I have debated this before and I do not wish to get into this.  Not blowing the top with a deep base was a decision.  I think they chose other trails because there was a good base up there before the rain.  My guess.....the natural base wasn't good enough for the amount of wind, rain, fog and temps.  I guess they chose poorly.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 2, 2019)

I'm not totally familiar with the backend but I'm assuming like most resorts the limit at marginal temperatures is compressed air, not water. This changes as the wetbulb drops. New low energy guns let more snow be made earlier by using air more efficiently - an HKD Impulse has a 4:1 air water ratio (80 cfm, 20 gpm) at high pressure.* A straight air water gun might require 500 cfm to output the same amount of water at the same temp. There is absolutely a difference in surface quality at marginal temperatures, if you want quality snow. If you want base snow, there isn't - both will make a wet pile if you ask them to. 

So, if you have a fixed amount of air, say 20,000 cfm, and a fixed amount of water, say 5,000 gpm, and we can assume a typical 10:1 air water ratio. I usually see 13:1 but we can be optimistic. That's 2,000 gpm at startup with old school guns, focused on one trail. 

Compare to the modern system, with the full 5,000 gpm running on four trails. More than twice the snow gets made - even after accounting for drainage and other losses it's double at least. However, it's spread thinner, so to get the same base depth it takes twice as much run time. Early season, the first few trails take longer. The flipside is that more trails see more snowmaking sooner, the mountain opens faster overall, etc. That's assuming the same amount of snow gets made, that management doesn't put a little extra onto race trails, parks, or main avenues since the snow is on 33% off sale.

There are times that you need big air. A hybrid approach is better than scrapping all rats. Sometimes one pile tonight is better than four piles in two days - super low air guns like early Snowlogics, TA's EVO or TL6, often have this issue, where they use no air but take forever, not just a long time. But generally low energy guns are a godsend.



*This is very configurable - from well over 100 cfm down to below 50 - but 80 is a good baseline.

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## tumbler (Jan 2, 2019)

I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone.  I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive.  I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between.  I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking.  This could also be a product of staffing.

FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people.  I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming.  Just thought I would pass along.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 2, 2019)

Turning towers/dragging sleds is a crew problem, not the gun's fault. We have tower mounted big air and I see the same problem. As for refreshes, if there isn't a base deficit I'd usually rather see more terrain, no? Until late season or 100% at least. 

I'll definitely agree that having Z-1 and Rat sleds every 150' down a mile long run is a hell of a lot more fun - and more work - than the same trail with low E towers. 

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## djd66 (Jan 2, 2019)

I am looking forward to the day when they can automate the whole process.  In my snowmaking not wet dream - I would love to see permanently mounted towers with cameras - all the guns could be controlled by remote.  I have to believe I will see that technology in my lifetime.  Then the idea of a trail refresh is just a matter of a few clicks on a computer - not having to rely on seasonal workers showing up.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The new Philosophy is not to upgrade and grow the capacity via larger equipment.  Instead it's buy more efficient stuff so they can blow the same amount with less energy thus conserving resources.  It is my belief that the new guns do not blow as much and as good as the old guns with more air.  But Win and I have debated this before and I do not wish to get into this.  Not blowing the top with a deep base was a decision.  I think they chose other trails because there was a good base up there before the rain.  My guess.....the natural base wasn't good enough for the amount of wind, rain, fog and temps.  I guess they chose poorly.



Oh, that debate.   You and I are on the same side.  I noticed now almost ten years ago that they were slipping behind the competition when it came to snowmaking.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone.  I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive.  I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between.  I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking.  This could also be a product of staffing.
> 
> FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people.  I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming.  Just thought I would pass along.



Rude employees.  Sounds like Alta.  If the skiing is bad, it gets people down.  Agree that resort employees should be professional.


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## benski (Jan 2, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I am looking forward to the day when they can automate the whole process.  In my snowmaking not wet dream - I would love to see permanently mounted towers with cameras - all the guns could be controlled by remote.  I have to believe I will see that technology in my lifetime.  Then the idea of a trail refresh is just a matter of a few clicks on a computer - not having to rely on seasonal workers showing up.



It’s around now. I am not sure how reliable or expensive it is. I assume one of those is a big problem.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2019)

Do they make anything that can rotate the tower guns like tower mounted fan guns? or something simpler (mechanical non-powered) like how a sprinkler works?


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## benski (Jan 2, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Do they make anything that can rotate the tower guns like tower mounted fan guns? or something simpler (mechanical non-powered) like how a sprinkler works?



I was thinking the same thing. The tower guns are heavy, so that could be an issue. Having move slowly, like 180 degrees per hour might be smart.


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## djd66 (Jan 2, 2019)

benski said:


> I was thinking the same thing. The tower guns are heavy, so that could be an issue. Having move slowly, like 180 degrees per hour might be smart.



All I know is we can control drones and robots on Mars,.... this can’t be that far off


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## cdskier (Jan 2, 2019)

djd66 said:


> All I know is we can control drones and robots on Mars,.... this can’t be that far off



If you have extremely deep pockets anything is possible. Wasn't the Mars Rover cost something like $2.5B? I'm sure if someone has that type of cash around you could develop a fully automated snowmaking system to cover an entire mountain. :razz:


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## HowieT2 (Jan 2, 2019)

Ahhh, the great snowmaking debate.  ‘Nothing like some rainy cutters to bring out the nostalgia for the old snow guns.  
Clipper moving in tonight and I just happen to be up.  Maybe tomorrow will see a nice natural refresh.


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## djd66 (Jan 2, 2019)

benski said:


> It’s around now. I am not sure how reliable or expensive it is. I assume one of those is a big problem.



Yep, it is. http://www.hkdsnowmakers.com/klik-auto.asp http://www.hkdsnowmakers.com/products-isno-controls.asp 

I’m sure it is not cheap.  I have to believe full mountain automated systems like this will be more common in the future.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2019)

Klik doesn't yet rotate low energy guns, just fans. It does start, adjust and stop low energy guns with almost no delay.

A fan gun is much easier to balance than a low energy gun. The main tube on the low energy gun leans out over the trail, binding up the bearing surface - usually 4" pipe - and generally being heavy to move from the base and also amplifying the force of the wind at the head of the gun. An oscillator will have to account for that extra weight that's not present on most fangun designs. It's usually easier to design a wider spray pattern from the beginning, rather than a powered oscillator - look at the new triple Baby SG2 from Ratnik, the double Borax from TA, the Impulse or Method compared to a Phazer from HKD, or the double Eos from DemacLenko.

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## ducky (Jan 3, 2019)

The Sugarbush App was updated this morning. You can now "pinch out" the webcam images and see better what's going on. 

3" at my house today. Should be good up at the hill with lots of grooming last night and still snowing. Day 40.


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## djd66 (Jan 3, 2019)

IceEidolon said:


> Klik doesn't yet rotate low energy guns, just fans. It does start, adjust and stop low energy guns with almost no delay.
> 
> A fan gun is much easier to balance than a low energy gun. The main tube on the low energy gun leans out over the trail, binding up the bearing surface - usually 4" pipe - and generally being heavy to move from the base and also amplifying the force of the wind at the head of the gun. An oscillator will have to account for that extra weight that's not present on most fangun designs. It's usually easier to design a wider spray pattern from the beginning, rather than a powered oscillator - look at the new triple Baby SG2 from Ratnik, the double Borax from TA, the Impulse or Method compared to a Phazer from HKD, or the double Eos from DemacLenko.
> 
> Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk



You seem to be very knowledgeable on snow making and the equipment.  What your background?


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## WinS (Jan 3, 2019)

Automation is definitely in the future. We are  actually trying two towers up by the Valley House. It will  work on towers where you can bring in electrical  current but towers will not work everywhere and power can not get everywhere yet.


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## WinS (Jan 3, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I'm a leftover big air guy but it has gone the way of the rotary phone.  I understand why the new guns are used, snowmaking is expensive.  I just wish that the guns were moved during gun runs to give an even spread and not 20' whales and grass in between.  I also wish they would do refreshers, there are towers all over the hill, on cold nights light up Murphy's or Fling or grinder or whatever and let them have 16 hours of run time for some fresh, DRY snowmaking.  This could also be a product of staffing.
> 
> FWIW- I heard quite a few stories this week of the parking lot employees berating people.  I get that the out of state plates can be rude, dumb and clueless but their first contact with a resort employee should be welcoming.  Just thought I would pass along.



I have not heard any complaints, but if anyone sees an employee being rude to anyone, I hope it will be brought to our attention as we  do not accept that behavior. That also goes for any guest being rude  to any of my teammates.


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## benski (Jan 3, 2019)

Conditions are sweet on the mountain. I did paradise, domino, splis ripcord bellow the top of spills, paradise and a woods run. All good. Looking to do Castlerock after lunch.


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## WinS (Jan 3, 2019)

NEW SUBJECT AND I NEED YOUR HELP:

As you know we encourage off-hour skinning at both LP and ME.  We do have a policy on the website and designated routes and hours.  They are designated so for both the safety of the skinners as well as our employees. Recently, we have had numerous people especially at Mount Ellen not following this policy and skinning and skiing down in areas they should not be. Our groomers have had some close calls and are really concerned about hitting someone. This is not fair to them. Skinning is a privilege and we want it to continue, but I need everyone's help to spread the word that this must be done according to our policy,  or we will have no choice but to ban skinning. A number of homeowners at Mount Ellen have also complained that cars have blocked their driveways and are entering Mount Ellen and skiing down where they should not be.  A few irresponsible people could ruin this for the many who follow the policy.  Many thanks for spreading the word.


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## mfi (Jan 3, 2019)

Think we will come tomorrow..


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 3, 2019)

what's up everyone?

so, how's the skiing looking in northern vt now that we've received a bit of refresher snow?

considering smuggs saturday and then sugarbush or k for sunday. wondering if the noVT trip is worth my extra drive time with respect to snow conditions. i think it probably is.


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## cdskier (Jan 3, 2019)

WinS said:


> NEW SUBJECT AND I NEED YOUR HELP:
> 
> As you know we encourage off-hour skinning at both LP and ME.  We do have a policy on the website and designated routes and hours.  They are designated so for both the safety of the skinners as well as our employees. Recently, we have had numerous people especially at Mount Ellen not following this policy and skinning and skiing down in areas they should not be. Our groomers have had some close calls and are really concerned about hitting someone. This is not fair to them. Skinning is a privilege and we want it to continue, but I need everyone's help to spread the word that this must be done according to our policy,  or we will have no choice but to ban skinning. A number of homeowners at Mount Ellen have also complained that cars have blocked their driveways and are entering Mount Ellen and skiing down where they should not be.  A few irresponsible people could ruin this for the many who follow the policy.  Many thanks for spreading the word.



Very sad that a few people can't follow the rules and could ruin it for everyone else. I see a note on this issue was added to the snow report too.


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## blur (Jan 4, 2019)

Before moving to Vermont in 04 I skied at a Whitetail in PA. They pretty much relied on 100% snow making. All tower fan guns that appeared to be turned on remotely. If temps allowed they blew a re-fresh of a few inches over groomed or un-groomed surfaces, nothing but silk for a few hours every morning. Assuming expensive system, but must be a ROI down the road.


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## Hawk (Jan 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> NEW SUBJECT AND I NEED YOUR HELP:
> 
> As you know we encourage off-hour skinning at both LP and ME.  We do have a policy on the website and designated routes and hours.  They are designated so for both the safety of the skinners as well as our employees. Recently, we have had numerous people especially at Mount Ellen not following this policy and skinning and skiing down in areas they should not be. Our groomers have had some close calls and are really concerned about hitting someone. This is not fair to them. Skinning is a privilege and we want it to continue, but I need everyone's help to spread the word that this must be done according to our policy,  or we will have no choice but to ban skinning. A number of homeowners at Mount Ellen have also complained that cars have blocked their driveways and are entering Mount Ellen and skiing down where they should not be.  A few irresponsible people could ruin this for the many who follow the policy.  Many thanks for spreading the word.


I have been guilty in the past of skiing Mt Ellen before they open and at night.  Yes against policy.  I have to add that I have NEVER parked in a location that was not public parking and have never blocked a driveway.  Also I have never been foolish enough to be on a trail that had a groomer on it.  In fact, myself and the others I am with have never even come in contact with anybody on the mountain with the routes we have taken.  Not in the 10 or so years that we have been doing this.  I guess the rules are there to protect the idiots that do these things and screw it up for the people that actually have a clue and know how to operate in a fashion that is safe for everybody. If there is a chance that my actions will screw up things for others then I will stop.  But there are definitely locals and others that do not follow the forum and certainly do not read the report.  They will not be easily swayed.  They are Vermonters and will be independent thinkers as that is who they are.


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## WinS (Jan 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have been guilty in the past of skiing Mt Ellen before they open and at night.  Yes against policy.  I have to add that I have NEVER parked in a location that was not public parking and have never blocked a driveway.  Also I have never been foolish enough to be on a trail that had a groomer on it.  In fact, myself and the others I am with have never even come in contact with anybody on the mountain with the routes we have taken.  Not in the 10 or so years that we have been doing this.  I guess the rules are there to protect the idiots that do these things and screw it up for the people that actually have a clue and know how to operate in a fashion that is safe for everybody. If there is a chance that my actions will screw up things for others then I will stop.  But there are definitely locals and others that do not follow the forum and certainly do not read the report.  They will not be easily swayed.  They are Vermonters and will be independent thinkers as that is who they are.




You are not the problem. It is those skinning and skiing where the equipment is. One even purposely sprayed a groomer as they shot by. Imagine if you were a driver what that did to your heartbeat.


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2019)

I always thought it was generous to let people skin and ski after hours, it is too bad a few have to ruin it.  Not surprising it was over the vacation though.  I recall earlier this year Mad River closed the hill to uphill traffic to let the hill drain and preserve snow and they said a few people still ignored it and went up.  I have to imagine in this day the liability is huge.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is those skinning and skiing where the equipment is. One even purposely sprayed a groomer as they shot by.


  Perhaps the policy needs to be changed to anyone found in violation will be intentionally groomed over by the snowcats.


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## stovepipe (Jan 4, 2019)

OK,    My take on the "skinning Policy". Been skiing at Club North for many years . Think the mountain had it right in the old days. If you had a pass or ticket it was fine to hike up during the day. There was posted a few routes preferred for the uphill travel. During the day time the Cats are off the mountain. Now the hikers are one the hill with the groomers with the new policy looking like we traded one "risk and replaced it with the other,(Hikers on the hill while most are skiing down) . Honestly ,however if you for example you were going up say Lower FIS you are not in any ones way.
            Love skiing here and am thankfull for all the hard work your crew puts in keeping the runs in good shape.  My vote says we go back to the way it used to be.                   Think Snow,  JC


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is those skinning and skiing where the equipment is. One even purposely sprayed a groomer as they shot by. Imagine if you were a driver what that did to your heartbeat.



Sounds like someone that wouldn't care what the rules say they can or can't do.


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## djd66 (Jan 4, 2019)

Just curious - If they were to go to a No Skinning Policy after hours - how would it get enforced?


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## ss20 (Jan 4, 2019)

Pico had a big problem with skinners and grooming a few years back...I don't know what they did to resolve it.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 4, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Pico had a big problem with skinners and grooming a few years back...I don't know what they did to resolve it.



Probably started yanking passes and banning from property.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> You are not the problem. It is those skinning and skiing where the equipment is. One even purposely sprayed a groomer as they shot by. Imagine if you were a driver what that did to your heartbeat.



Vail and Beaver Creek used to run a noontime grooming shift.  There are appalling stories of skiers going between cats, following cats, and even using the tillers as jumps.  The practice was ended after several skier/cat incidents at Beaver Creek in a single day.  There is still overlap between when groomers are on the mountain before opening and other operations personnel (primarily lifties) are skiing around, and it is not a fun time to be in the cat.


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## slatham (Jan 4, 2019)

Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest would never mess with a groomer.....


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## benski (Jan 4, 2019)

Keelhauled said:


> Vail and Beaver Creek used to run a noontime grooming shift.  There are appalling stories of skiers going between cats, following cats, and even using the tillers as jumps.  The practice was ended after several skier/cat incidents at Beaver Creek in a single day.  There is still overlap between when groomers are on the mountain before opening and other operations personnel (primarily lifties) are skiing around, and it is not a fun time to be in the cat.



I have seen the Sugarbush groomers return to there enclosure on a powder day, but its been years since i have had a Sugarbush powder day.


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## jaybird (Jan 4, 2019)

Be that as it may ..

Conditions were quite good today !
Nice groom on Steins 

On the groomer spooking..
Knuckleheads are just that.

Please get some gear up Ripcord .. Please ..


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## teleo (Jan 4, 2019)

djd66 said:


> Just curious - If they were to go to a No Skinning Policy after hours - how would it get enforced?


This.

If you ban skinning, the people who follow rules will stop skinning, the people who don't follow rules will do what they do. Does that solve the problem?  Seems to me that enforcement of the violators is what needs to be figured out.

Worth a call to Pico to see if they had anything that helped. It's known as Hico for a reason.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2019)

FWIW...Castlerock chair spins today


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2019)

Slide brook chair soon?


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## mikec142 (Jan 5, 2019)

WinS said:


> I have not heard any complaints, but if anyone sees an employee being rude to anyone, I hope it will be brought to our attention as we  do not accept that behavior. That also goes for any guest being rude  to any of my teammates.



Hey Win,

We were up over Thanksgiving and again for a day during the Christmas week.  Each time, the person who greeted us at the base of the school house was very nice and helpful.  Same goes with all the folks I interact with at Sugarbush.  Looking forward to a great season.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2019)

Is making snow on the upper part of brambles something just started this year? I remember snow being made on the lower part previously, but not upper unless it is just more visible now with the trees showing signs of recent snowmaking. That must require some serious hose dragging as I don’t recall any hydrants nearby on the upper part. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Hey Win,
> 
> We were up over Thanksgiving and again for a day during the Christmas week.  Each time, the person who greeted us at the base of the school house was very nice and helpful.  Same goes with all the folks I interact with at Sugarbush.  Looking forward to a great season.



Thank you!


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Is making snow on the upper part of brambles something just started this year? I remember snow being made on the lower part previously, but not upper unless it is just more visible now with the trees showing signs of recent snowmaking. That must require some serious hose dragging as I don’t recall any hydrants nearby on the upper part.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes, we drag the hosse over from Inverness. The snowmaking there allows GMVS to set  gates for GS training and racing.


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Slide brook chair soon?



Probably need a good foot or more of heavy snow to cover up the water bars so snowmobiles can get in to the towers.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW...Castlerock chair spins today



and the skiing was way better than expected


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2019)

I agree.  Castlerock was good.  I really enjoyed lift line and a sunny Middle earth.

On a side note RIP Dave Gould.  He passed away quietly out in Big Sky this morning.  I spent a bunch of time with him here and out in Big Sky.  He always was great at making me laugh and having a good outlook on life.  If anyone on here knew him from the ski school here at the mountain or when he worked running the restaurant at the airport, you will definitely know what I mean.   He will be missed.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I agree.  Castlerock was good.  I really enjoyed lift line and a sunny Middle earth.
> 
> On a side note RIP Dave Gould.  He passed away quietly out in Big Sky this morning.  I spent a bunch of time with him here and out in Big Sky.  He always was great at making me laugh and having a good outlook on life.  If anyone on here knew him from the ski school here at the mountain or when he worked running the restaurant at the airport, you will definitely know what I mean.   He will be missed.



Sad news...


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## pinnoke (Jan 5, 2019)

*Our good friend deserved better...*



Hawk said:


> I agree.  Castlerock was good.  I really enjoyed lift line and a sunny Middle earth.
> 
> On a side note RIP Dave Gould.  He passed away quietly out in Big Sky this morning.  I spent a bunch of time with him here and out in Big Sky.  He always was great at making me laugh and having a good outlook on life.  If anyone on here knew him from the ski school here at the mountain or when he worked running the restaurant at the airport, you will definitely know what I mean.   He will be missed.



Enjoyed skiing with Dave at Sugarbush, and Big Sky...a great teacher and good friend. Always smiling. Gentle soul. Photo was taken 3/17/17, sharing a couple of beers at the base of Moonlight Basin after an awesome day together. RIP Dave, and condolences Sandra.


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## pinnoke (Jan 5, 2019)

I've just noticed, for the first time even though it's my photo, that Dave's wearing a Sugarbush jacket in this photo!


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## WinS (Jan 6, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I agree.  Castlerock was good.  I really enjoyed lift line and a sunny Middle earth.
> 
> On a side note RIP Dave Gould.  He passed away quietly out in Big Sky this morning.  I spent a bunch of time with him here and out in Big Sky.  He always was great at making me laugh and having a good outlook on life.  If anyone on here knew him from the ski school here at the mountain or when he worked running the restaurant at the airport, you will definitely know what I mean.   He will be missed.



Dave was the best. Not only was he one of our best instructors, but a really good guy. He will be missed greatly.


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## WinS (Jan 6, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> Enjoyed skiing with Dave at Sugarbush, and Big Sky...a great teacher and good friend. Always smiling. Gentle soul. Photo was taken 3/17/17, sharing a couple of beers at the base of Moonlight Basin after an awesome day together. RIP Dave, and condolences Sandra.



Thank you for sharing. This picture captures Dave perfectly.


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## shadyjay (Jan 6, 2019)

That picture is a great shot of him.  Over the years, I've worked with him at the golf course, in addition to seeing him around the mountain.  He was a great guy and will be missed.  RIP.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2019)

yesterday was a fantastic powder day.


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> yesterday was a fantastic powder day.



If anyone is around today, hit Stein's. It is silky smooth under the towers on skiers left.  The excavator is up at Ripcord working on repairing the snowmaking pipe, so hopefully that will be ready when the temps  turn cold again later in the week.


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## rocks860 (Jan 7, 2019)

I’ll be up there the week of 1/26 - 2/2, can’t wait


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jaybird (Jan 7, 2019)

WinS said:


> If anyone is around today, hit Stein's. It is silky smooth under the towers on skiers left.  The excavator is up at Ripcord working on repairing the snowmaking pipe, so hopefully that will be ready when the temps  turn cold again later in the week.



Thanks for attending to Ripcord! Has been sad looking at that .. especially with the buff wind blown under the lift.
Yesterday was well beyond wildest expectations. Pockets of Pow interspersed everywhere.
Baton down for a return to snow cycle 

Double Cheers !


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## Julius (Jan 7, 2019)

Boy Steins sure was fun last few days and that snow event yesterday was a plus.  As I always say, a little freshies go a long way.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2019)

Good to hear the excavator made it up to Ripcord! Agree the earlier statement that seeing that wind blown bare top of Ripcord is tough to see.

The new snow yesterday was nice. Middle Earth was great. And nice to see more snow in the forecast as we could sure use some to fill in some areas.

A big kudos to patrol as well for opening trails like Walts and Semi-Tough and doing some shoveling of snow so people could navigate the water bars! They may have been thin on Saturday, but I still enjoy natural trails like those with thin cover so was happy to see them open.

Overall I was a bit surprised how uncrowded it was this weekend. Even in my condo complex the lot had plenty of empty parking spots. Maybe people were up for the long holiday period and took a break this weekend?


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Good to hear the excavator made it up to Ripcord! Agree the earlier statement that seeing that wind blown bare top of Ripcord is tough to see.
> 
> The new snow yesterday was nice. Middle Earth was great. And nice to see more snow in the forecast as we could sure use some to fill in some areas.
> 
> ...



maybe Win can back me up with some real stats, but anecdotally, my observation over the last decade is that the first weekend after new years is usually light.  not many vacationers right after the holiday.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2019)

it was pretty sweet yesterday with the fresh snow.  so was moonshine fwiw.  and paradise.  and cr run. and snowball.....


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2019)

jaybird said:


> Thanks for attending to Ripcord! Has been sad looking at that .. especially with the buff wind blown under the lift.
> Yesterday was well beyond wildest expectations. Pockets of Pow interspersed everywhere.
> Baton down for a return to snow cycle
> 
> ...



hopefully once the repairs are done and excavator is out of there, they  will groom the entrance to paradise.  It is particularly harrowing even  for me and I've done it a few times before.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> maybe Win can back me up with some real stats, but anecdotally, my observation over the last decade is that the first weekend after new years is usually light.  not many vacationers right after the holiday.



Even some of the "regular" cars that I see in my condo parking lot every weekend weren't there. I tried to recall anecdotally from my own memory, but it is a bit fuzzy. Doesn't help that how the holiday falls, what the weather is, etc all impacts it too on a year to year basis.


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## tumbler (Jan 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> maybe Win can back me up with some real stats, but anecdotally, my observation over the last decade is that the first weekend after new years is usually light.  not many vacationers right after the holiday.



I agree with this and the weekend before Xmas is usually light on traffic too.  For a weekend warrior it was fun yesterday skiing a mini pow day with no crowd.  Felt like midweek.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> it was pretty sweet yesterday with the fresh snow.  so was moonshine fwiw.  and paradise.  and cr run. and snowball.....



Mt Ellen was also very good...first runs of the year on Walt's and Semi Tough.  Hammerhead and Tumbler much better with new snow.  Very windy on Lower Elbow but a lot of snow blew in deep on skier's left on Lower Exterminator.


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## WinS (Jan 8, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> maybe Win can back me up with some real stats, but anecdotally, my observation over the last decade is that the first weekend after new years is usually light.  not many vacationers right after the holiday.



Yes, the weeks and weekends in between Xmas and MLK are usually light, but this past week was busier than normal and a lot better than last year when it was frigid. Saturday we had around 6,300 visits and Sunday 5,300 but when we have as much open terrain and most lifts other than SB running, it does not appear that busy. 

Ripcord was fixed and the HG trails will be open but delayed a bit to get everything off and cleaned up. That is where we will make snow next.


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## WinS (Jan 8, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> hopefully once the repairs are done and excavator is out of there, they  will groom the entrance to paradise.  It is particularly harrowing even  for me and I've done it a few times before.



Will take a look but I do not think we could get a groomer down there and back up. More snow should help a lot.


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## cdskier (Jan 8, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> hopefully once the repairs are done and excavator is out of there, they  will groom the entrance to paradise.  It is particularly harrowing even  for me and I've done it a few times before.



I'd say that a difficult entrance helps keep people who shouldn't be there out...but a post I saw on Facebook from some guy during the Christmas holiday proves otherwise. The guy literally posted from the Nancy Hanks Peak summit marker saying he started going down Paradise but didn't want to ski a bump run so when he got to the top of the turn and saw how the rest of the trail was still bumpy he started going into "the path in the woods following some other tracks". He was asking on Facebook whether he should turn around or where he would end up if he kept going. I'd be worried that grooming that entrance and making it look too easy would just result in more people like him going down a trail they shouldn't be on in the first place.

Anyway, like Win said, I'm sure some fresh snow will help.


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## tumbler (Jan 8, 2019)

Congrats on the Ripcord fix- couldn't have been easy.  Hopefully it holds until spring.  Years ago we would take a land gun and shoot it down the entrance to paradise to try and fill in the random bumps


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## benski (Jan 8, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Congrats on the Ripcord fix- couldn't have been easy.  Hopefully it holds until spring.  Years ago we would take a land gun and shoot it down the entrance to paradise to try and fill in the random bumps



There is plenty of snow, they are just really poorly formed. they need to start over at the top, in a huge way.


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## Hawk (Jan 8, 2019)

It's paradise.  It's supposed to hard.  Don't groom it under any circumstances.  Howie and Ben, you guys both ski it well enough.  Stop being so  lazy.  LOL


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'd say that a difficult entrance helps keep people who shouldn't be there out...but a post I saw on Facebook from some guy during the Christmas holiday proves otherwise. The guy literally posted from the Nancy Hanks Peak summit marker saying he started going down Paradise but didn't want to ski a bump run so when he got to the top of the turn and saw how the rest of the trail was still bumpy he started going into "the path in the woods following some other tracks". He was asking on Facebook whether he should turn around or where he would end up if he kept going. I'd be worried that grooming that entrance and making it look too easy would just result in more people like him going down a trail they shouldn't be on in the first place.
> 
> Anyway, like Win said, I'm sure some fresh snow will help.



that post was insane. that ski the east facebook group is really full of some full on jerrytown gapers.

smuggler's skied incredibly on saturday. stratton skied miserably on sunday.

i'm probably going to be at sugarbush this saturday for my first visit of the season. can't wait.


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## urungus (Jan 8, 2019)

Anyone have a link to that Facebook post?


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2019)

urungus said:


> Anyone have a link to that Facebook post?



it was deleted in shame. people went to town on him.


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## cdskier (Jan 8, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it was deleted in shame. people went to town on him.



It was hysterical...and yet so sad at the same time. I had completely forgotten about it until the suggestion of grooming the Paradise entrance made me think of people like that being enticed to go ski Paradise.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 8, 2019)

Hawk said:


> It's paradise.  It's supposed to hard.  Don't groom it under any circumstances.  Howie and Ben, you guys both ski it well enough.  Stop being so  lazy.  LOL



I'm just talking about the very top.  not the whole traverse but right off the intersection with ripcord.
Like I said and you know very well, I've skied it a thousand times if Ive skied it once.  I can handle it.  But saturday, there were a bunch of people in front of me and as I went to pass them, one of them turned into me and I had to slide to avoid contact.  'nothing worse than a bruise to my ego but still think it best to groom it fresh.  It will get bumped up in no time.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 9, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



HowieT2 said:


> I'm just talking about the very top.  not the whole traverse but right off the intersection with ripcord.
> Like I said and you know very well, I've skied it a thousand times if Ive skied it once.  I can handle it.  But saturday, there were a bunch of people in front of me and as I went to pass them, one of them turned into me and I had to slide to avoid contact.  'nothing worse than a bruise to my ego but still think it best to groom it fresh.  It will get bumped up in no time.



That section of moguls has always been odd shaped. And it is definitely a good deterrent for people who don’t belong there. Always took it as part of the deal, but howie is right, It’s worse than usual. Which I have also seen before. I’ve  never seen it in the summer. Is it just the ground? 25 yards in and usually it’s totally fine. Like it is now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mfi (Jan 9, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that post was insane. that ski the east facebook group is really full of some full on jerrytown gapers.
> 
> smuggler's skied incredibly on saturday. stratton skied miserably on sunday.
> 
> i'm probably going to be at sugarbush this saturday for my first visit of the season. can't wait.


Suprised you didn't go further north Sunday..Stowe and Jay got pounded. 
oh well, this weekend should be very good. Stowe, SB and maybe Jay.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2019)

mfi said:


> Suprised you didn't go further north Sunday..Stowe and Jay got pounded.
> oh well, this weekend should be very good. Stowe, SB and maybe Jay.



skiing noVT on a sunday involves a 6+ hour drive home. i tend to ski noVT saturday, then drive south to rutland or manchester for a cheap hotel, and ski soVT on a sunday.


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## WinS (Jan 9, 2019)

We had a visit from Glen Plake and his wife Kimberly. What great people and fantastic skiers. Did some runs down Paradise, CR, Cotillion, Middle Earth and the toilet bowl with them and some others. Couldn’t believe how nice everything was and how deep the fresh powder in the woods was.  Then, on the runout back to the base I hit a dip and launched. As I caught myself, I tweaked my hamstring. Hadn’t done that since soccer days. Oh well, since there is a lot of season to go, I am going to be smart and miss today’s powder but it is sure looking good on the mountain. Dress warmly this weekend and enjoy our new snow.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 9, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> skiing noVT on a sunday involves a 6+ hour drive home. i tend to ski noVT saturday, then drive south to rutland or manchester for a cheap hotel, and ski soVT on a sunday.



move to westchester.  House next to me just sold to a couple from Brooklyn who said they have 8 other couples from brooklyn who just bought in the area.


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## mikec142 (Jan 9, 2019)

WinS said:


> We had a visit from Glen Plake and his wife Kimberly. What great people and fantastic skiers. Did some runs down Paradise, CR, Cotillion, Middle Earth and the toilet bowl with them and some others. Couldn’t believe how nice everything was and how deep the fresh powder in the woods was.  Then, on the runout back to the base I hit a dip and launched. As I caught myself, I tweaked my hamstring. Hadn’t done that since soccer days. Oh well, since there is a lot of season to go, I am going to be smart and miss today’s powder but it is sure looking good on the mountain. Dress warmly this weekend and enjoy our new snow.



Feel better Win.  Pretty sure I'm making the solo trip from NJ this weekend.  One sick kid, one kid studying for exams and a wife who knows I'll be a PITA if I'm sitting at home watching ski movies.


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## pinnoke (Jan 10, 2019)

What do you think, folks...would you say Sugarbush has under-reported the snow totals the past couple of days? Only 12" in past 48 hours? The powder skiing has been fantastic! The wind may be both the reason new snow amounts have been tough to measure, plus partly responsible for the free refills we've been enjoying!


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 10, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> What do you think, folks...would you say Sugarbush has under-reported the snow totals the past couple of days? Only 12" in past 48 hours? The powder skiing has been fantastic! The wind may be both the reason new snow amounts have been tough to measure, plus partly responsible for the free refills we've been enjoying!



I was curious about that myself.  Resorts to the south and north of them were all reporting more snow.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2019)

Funny...was just talking about that. Haven't seen in person how much they have (damn work!)...but have seen that resorts north and south are all reporting more (including even MRG which I always consider conservative).


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## Julius (Jan 10, 2019)

This topic often comes up with our crew.  Consensus is a head scratching one at best on how they arrive at those numbers.  Who's complaining though..our guess is the lower pow numbers are meant to keep the crowds away to retain more snow for us passholders.  Most likely not though.


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## TSQURD (Jan 10, 2019)

Skied today. The afternoon snow report is claiming 2" throughout the day. It was snowing pretty good all day, both my buddy and I thought the report was low based on what we saw.  Was quite windy which was redistributing the snow, doubt there was much accumulation on the snow stake platform... In any case skiing was incredible today!


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> What do you think, folks...would you say Sugarbush has under-reported the snow totals the past couple of days? Only 12" in past 48 hours? The powder skiing has been fantastic! The wind may be both the reason new snow amounts have been tough to measure, plus partly responsible for the free refills we've been enjoying!


 
Not sure how everyone measures or exactly when. The high wind does make it challenging and clearly piles it up deep in a lot of areas, especially the woods. We reported 16” in past 72 hours which we think it accurate. With clippers like we had there can be huge differences among mountains. We measure at LP and ME and MRG could be very different. Regardless, the skiing and riding is superb. Our lift team did a great job yesterday keeping as many lifts going as they did. Bundle up and co e on out.


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## pinnoke (Jan 11, 2019)

Thanks, Win. Your updated report of 16" is now consistently-expressed on website...the snow's been so plentiful that I realize it's hard to keep up! Hopefully, you're healing quickly enough to get some personal samples asap!


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> Thanks, Win. Your updated report of 16" is now consistently-expressed on website...the snow's been so plentiful that I realize it's hard to keep up! Hopefully, you're healing quickly enough to get some personal samples asap!



Thank you. Going to give it a try this am. Checked our neighbor, MRG, and they reported 16-19” over same period.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2019)

If you add in the 4-6" we got on Sunday last week and we are looking at over 2 feet in the woods on that hard icy base.  Things are looking up.  Hope you feel better Win.  Lots of people getting hurt this week.  A couple of my friends had ACL tears.  Not good. Stay safe out there.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 11, 2019)

Hawk said:


> If you add in the 4-6" we got on Sunday last week and we are looking at over 2 feet in the woods on that hard icy base.  Things are looking up.  Hope you feel better Win.  Lots of people getting hurt this week.  A couple of my friends had ACL tears.  Not good. Stay safe out there.



not just that its was 2 feet but the first part of the storm was wet dense and the second half light and fluffy.  perfect combination.  wish I wasnt stuck at home riding the mtn bike.


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## jaybird (Jan 11, 2019)

Skied weds and Thursday. There was absolutely 18" or more. As Win (aka Pele) mentioned, it must've been impossible to get an accurate measurement with the swirling white tornado that spun for >48 hours. The drop-in pillows at some trail entries were thigh deep and most excellent. Many different densities fell this week. It ended up as blower .. hoping Ops was able to work that raw material in.

Get well soon Win ! 
Looking forward to seeing you out there working that scissor kick


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## 1dog (Jan 14, 2019)

*Parking*

Would it be prudent to open the lower entrance to those looking not to drop off people up top?

Seems even when i try to drop off my little guy to Blazers on good snow weekends I can end up starting back up by Paradise Deli.

If lower entrance was opened to those looking to get on the jitney or walk up, it would prevent back ups - can let them in lower lot and lower lot of D.

Just a thought!

Great weekend this past Thur/Fri/Sat/Sunday


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2019)

1dog said:


> Would it be prudent to open the lower entrance to those looking not to drop off people up top?
> 
> Seems even when i try to drop off my little guy to Blazers on good snow weekends I can end up starting back up by Paradise Deli.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, no. I think this would not  be better. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to arrive at the same time. We have found that the system we are using is the most orderly.


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2019)

jaybird said:


> Skied weds and Thursday. There was absolutely 18" or more. As Win (aka Pele) mentioned, it must've been impossible to get an accurate measurement with the swirling white tornado that spun for >48 hours. The drop-in pillows at some trail entries were thigh deep and most excellent. Many different densities fell this week. It ended up as blower .. hoping Ops was able to work that raw material in.
> 
> Get well soon Win !
> Looking forward to seeing you out there working that scissor kick



Thank you. We are out in Taos at the annual winter meeting of the Mountain Collective resorts. First time here and it is an awesome mountain. There is some really good steep terrain that can be accessed both by lifts and hiking.  Skied Kachina Peak and the hamstring felt good


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## benski (Jan 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, no. I think this would not  be better. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to arrive at the same time. We have found that the system we are using is the most orderly.



It seams like the parking team attendants are the issue. Not sure what to do there. The individuals seam to do there job fine but as a team they just aren't fast enough. I saw Alta created a 3+ person a vehicle parking area in one of the closer lots. That might help keep the number of cars more manageable, and maybe the team operate more efficiently if they were split between two parking lots. Maybe a park and ride some where to the north so fewer people drive to the mountain will help.


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## jaybird (Jan 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Thank you. We are out in Taos at the annual winter meeting of the Mountain Collective resorts. First time here and it is an awesome mountain. There is some really good steep terrain that can be accessed both by lifts and hiking.  Skied Kachina Peak and the hamstring felt good ��



The winter prior to Ernie Blake's passing, we skied Taos in the deepest snow I have ever skied. After a 3 day storm they dug out and were able to get the primary chair running on pony motor. The Albuquerque paper that day was reporting 89" new. We trenched there for 4 days. They avi bombed Kachina and the debris was everywhere. Still, we hiked it and will never forget. Say hello to Rachel. See if she'd be interested in joining your Instructor team. That's one rippin' gal! We'll keep the gate on the house while you're away. Cheers!


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## 1dog (Jan 15, 2019)

*parking flow*



benski said:


> It seams like the parking team attendants are the issue. Not sure what to do there. The individuals seam to do there job fine but as a team they just aren't fast enough. I saw Alta created a 3+ person a vehicle parking area in one of the closer lots. That might help keep the number of cars more manageable, and maybe the team operate more efficiently if they were split between two parking lots. Maybe a park and ride some where to the north so fewer people drive to the mountain will help.



Well, understand the load at certain times - but giving cars more options to decrease the load at the 4-way intersection seems prudent. 
I have cut in before the conew were removed to park below and take the jit or walk up - didn't cause any problem and was one less car going thru the 'funnel'.

Lowest lot option for 8:30-9:30 seems easy to try, but as I suggested, its just an option. Northeast Americans despise waiting! 

( and hey if its not -4 I ski with my little guy from 8-9:30 removing the problem. Many families don't come until ski school starts - causing a forced jam at 9-9:30. Thx for the response Win.


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## Hawk (Jan 15, 2019)

Here is a suggestion.  If there is a back up to the paradise market, take the golf course road to West Hill to Inferno and you will be at the stop sign in no time.  Also Ben, it is not the parking attendants.  They do fine.  it the tourists in their cars that are the problem.  It seems that people are too distracted and can't figure out where or how to park.  Also they wait when the person before them pull up and swings the door open and get out right in the way of the next car.  Some people are clueless.


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2019)

My only "issue" with parking is how narrow the first row at Lincoln is. It can be a huge pain in the ass to get out with a bigger vehicle (I drive  a pickup). Was glad last Sunday that I had the "10 minute load/unload" spots in front of me and the one directly in front of me was empty so I could just pull straight through to get out. Backing out would have been a pain and probably would have looked like that scene in Austin Powers where he's trying to turn around the golf cart in the narrow tunnel!


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## Hawk (Jan 15, 2019)

So no Snowmaking again today at Lincoln Peak.  That is 4 days now over one of the coldest stretches.  Are they done for the year?


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## IceEidolon (Jan 15, 2019)

It could be a power curtailment or peak charges. Even if the restriction or extra charge is for a few hours, starting and stopping a manual snowmaking system takes several more hours and at cold temperatures can cause hydrant or pipeline freezes. Further, below zero or -10 snowmaking efficiency starts to drop as evaporation losses climb. This is especially true with new model low energy guns. Depending on the forecast, it might be prudent to give the ops guys a break or let them catch up on repairs while holding back snowmaking for a more advantageous time.

I'm not involved at all with this decision and it could well be anything from equipment trouble to a preplanned mtn ops trip to Vegas for all I know, that's just my first guess.

Sent from my Life Max using Tapatalk


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## Hawk (Jan 15, 2019)

I know all of the possible scenarios and I can speculate with the best as previously witnessed on here.  You don't have to elaborate.  I was looking for the honest answer.   They have been pretty much up front with their plans in the past.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 15, 2019)

And I'm just spitballing from a very long way away. Mostly I follow this thread because of that same openness.

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## tumbler (Jan 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> So no Snowmaking again today at Lincoln Peak.  That is 4 days now over one of the coldest stretches.  Are they done for the year?



Interesting.  Is Ripcord done?


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## WinS (Jan 15, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Interesting.  Is Ripcord done?



We have been making snow over at ME. No need in our opinion this week at LP. Will  notbe making snow until after MLK. May or may not need more on Ripcord, but will be doing more on spring trails and others if needed but we have a lot of depth and there is good snow in the forecast. We have consolidated crews and moved some Snowmakers to lifts and grooming as we do each year around this time.


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## Hawk (Jan 15, 2019)

Fair enough.  The forecast does look really good for the next 7 days.


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## benski (Jan 15, 2019)

Back on the subject of parking there is an opening for Parking lot Attendant posted on there website. With unemployment extremely low, in Montpelier and Burlington, local hiring must be hard.


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## ss20 (Jan 15, 2019)

benski said:


> Back on the subject of parking there is an opening for Parking lot Attendant posted on there website. With unemployment extremely low, in Montpelier and Burlington, local hiring must be hard.



Across the entire industry there are staffing shortages.  Sugarbush and MRG have it especially bad because there's minimal housing in the valley.  

Anyone who gets out there MLK Monday if this storm pans out will see the effects...


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## flakeydog (Jan 15, 2019)

If we are talking about the parking lots, the path from the lower lot (the last one over by the old Warren House), the path up to the mount us nice but it kind of dumps you out right in the middle of that 4-way intersection of the access road/inferno rd.  Would be nice to have some continuity and just cross on the inferno road and right up to the other path that takes you behind Clay Brook. I’d much rather walk than become roadkill in the hay wagon as it tries to bolt across the access road in front of the parade of impatient Suburbans doing the morning dump and run. BTW- parking crew is usually efficient and friendly.  Problems are mainly due to people not listening, paying attention, or just not getting it. Shuttle always waits but I ffeel bad waiving it on because I usually walk. 

Also- maybe I am late to the party but was surprised to see the collapsed Glen House deck. Looks like the fix is underway. Any changes planned or is it just a straight repair?


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> Also- maybe I am late to the party but was surprised to see the collapsed Glen House deck. Looks like the fix is underway. Any changes planned or is it just a straight repair?



What? When? I can't believe I wouldn't have seen/noticed that this weekend.


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## tumbler (Jan 16, 2019)

The parking is only an issue on Saturday and maybe some Sunday mornings.  It is what it is and it needs to be organized otherwise everyone would be pulling in to whatever lot they want and speeding to get as close as possible.  IF you get stuck in traffic, leave a little earlier next time.  This Saturday? Leave very early.

Glen house deck?!?!


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> What? When? I can't believe I wouldn't have seen/noticed that this weekend.



A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.



having looked at that structure in the summer, it was only a matter of time before something gave way.


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## tumbler (Jan 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.



What an unfortunate opportunity.  Already with power, water and sewer, could be quite the expanded lunch/early apres spot on the hill...


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## Julius (Jan 16, 2019)

There's nothing like making turns at North, then enjoying a beer with the sun beating upon your face on that deck.


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## Hawk (Jan 16, 2019)

Tear the whole thing down and make a condo hotel.    LOL  just kidding.  I know how touchy you north skier about that lodge.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.


  So will it not be just a straight repair?


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.


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## djd66 (Jan 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> A support beam collapsed. The area torn down was for safety reasons. Will now have to think about the future plan for the Glen House.



I personally would love to see some real money put into the Glen House.  How about tearing it down and triple or quadruple the size of it?  I am sure rebuilding it would be a nightmare with the permitting and then bringing it up to code.

Given the layout of North - it makes complete sense for that building to be a lot bigger.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 16, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I personally would love to see some real money put into the Glen House.  How about tearing it down and triple or quadruple the size of it?  I am sure rebuilding it would be a nightmare with the permitting and then bringing it up to code.
> 
> Given the layout of North - it makes complete sense for that building to be a lot bigger.



Agreed. Its a borderline fire hazard now! Cant tell you the amount of times ive tried to spend $$ there just to realize it was a nearly impossible feat with the crowds


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## HowieT2 (Jan 16, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Agreed. Its a borderline fire hazard now! Cant tell you the amount of times ive tried to spend $$ there just to realize it was a nearly impossible feat with the crowds



Agreed.  hopefully with a real fireplace (  realize thats extremely unlikely).


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## tumbler (Jan 16, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


>



Ah, the good old days rippin bumps on FIS in the spring


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## Hawk (Jan 16, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I personally would love to see some real money put into the Glen House.  How about tearing it down and triple or quadruple the size of it?  I am sure rebuilding it would be a nightmare with the permitting and then bringing it up to code.
> 
> Given the layout of North - it makes complete sense for that building to be a lot bigger.



Before that happens they will probably build the structure at the top of the Gatehouse so they can have an additional wedding venue up on the mountain that doubles as a lunch place in the winter for the programs.  There was talk about that.  Not sure if either will happen.


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## smac75 (Jan 16, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> having looked at that structure in the summer, it was only a matter of time before something gave way.



I have to say, I've had this thought on more than one occasion while hanging out on a packed ME base lodge deck!


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## WWF-VT (Jan 16, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Agreed. Its a borderline fire hazard now! Cant tell you the amount of times ive tried to spend $$ there just to realize it was a nearly impossible feat with the crowds



Lol...crowds between 11 and 1 on weekend days doesn't merit a 3-4x expansion in the size of the Glen House.


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## djd66 (Jan 16, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Lol...crowds between 11 and 1 on weekend days doesn't merit a 3-4x expansion in the size of the Glen House.



With that logic, they shouldn't build base lodges either.  They could have just stuck with the Yurt instead of building Gatehouse (way too small IMHO)


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## HowieT2 (Jan 16, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Lol...crowds between 11 and 1 on weekend days doesn't merit a 3-4x expansion in the size of the Glen House.



I dont know that that's true.  if they have to build something anyway, how much more would it cost to make it bigger.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 16, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont know that that's true.  if they have to build something anyway, how much more would it cost to make it bigger.



I agree bigger.  It’s a great opportunity to do something over there. While we’re at it we can put the lift in that was planned to go above Inverness. Bet you can get a screaming deal on the bubble lift from hermitage!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> I agree bigger.  It’s a great opportunity to do something over there. While we’re at it we can put the lift in that was planned to go above Inverness. Bet you can get a screaming deal on the bubble lift from hermitage!



No bubbles!


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 16, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Lol...crowds between 11 and 1 on weekend days doesn't merit a 3-4x expansion in the size of the Glen House.



LOL you must love the smell of some random dudes cheese breath down your back or something. Its safe to say bigger would be way better for a lodge in such an ideal place as the Glenn House is


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 16, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Rebuilding the Glen House bigger reminds me of expanding urban highways. You move more total traffic but at the same level of congestion.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 16, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> LOL you must love the smell of some random dudes cheese breath down your back or something. Its safe to say bigger would be way better for a lodge in such an ideal place as the Glenn House is



Bigger sure, but 3-4x as suggested is too much.  FWIW - I use the Glen House for a bio break and warm-up on cold days and have never experienced anyone's cheese breath.


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## 1dog (Jan 17, 2019)

*Since we are  suggesting how to spend all SV's cash*



WWF-VT said:


> Bigger sure, but 3-4x as suggested is too much.  FWIW - I use the Glen House for a bio break and warm-up on cold days and have never experienced anyone's cheese breath.



a 20 year member of our ski house is president of a well-known, highly-regarded architectual firm ( who's namesake owned a little hill out in Wyoming for a few years. . . . . ). We are always discussing how the Octagon would be the BEST BAR in ski country with stand up bar around the outside and 'tenders in the middle - hec charge a cover and you'd get it!

I'm sure there are structural issues, but he has offered a complimentary spec of the whole place for Win to look at. I'm not schooled in how all that works, but hes a Yale guy so I always say how sorry I am for him. . . . .  

Anyway, Mike is a Sugarbush loyalist from way back, and a talented fellow. 

So now three projects on the CapEx list - Walts, the Oct, and yeah, the only major mountain with no farily large lodge on the mountain itself needs that upper Gatehouse lodge. Permit it before DC turns hostile to development on or near givernment property! 
There - put that in your pipe and , er, ah, vape it?


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> No bubbles!


 +1


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## flakeydog (Jan 17, 2019)

By octagon, do you mean the mushroom?  I think another little place up here has dibs on the "Octagon" name.  

I think some sort of lodge on at the top of gatehouse would be great.  Lots of space up there, not particularly visible from below or other parts of the mountain (preserving aesthetics/views) and quite accessible (lift, truck, snowcat).  Also, perhaps the elevation is such that permits would not be as much of a challenge with higher areas.  Food, restrooms, etc would be good and puts us in line with other mountains.  It also holds potential for summer use.  Ride up chair, easy hike down (or even hike up destination).  The only downside I can think of is it would possibly put more people on gatehouse chair which tends to be the longest in terms of lines (when there are lines).

As far as the Glen House, I see permit issues preventing any type of expansion beyond current state.  I foresee a repair and that is about it.  Maybe a provision to expand ground floor under the current deck footprint perhaps.


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2019)

Mushroom has been discussed many times and I believe Win said it is a structural issue and an alcohol permit issue.  We all agree it would be an awesome bar and dance party place.

Lodge at top of GH would be sweet and it has been mentioned as a potential item but would be a huge expense.  Could be used for summer wedding venue and would be great for winter on mountain.  I think more needs to happen to make it work.  Turn GH into a 6 pack (no bubbles) and put a lift in from the intersection of CR runout and Header up to the GH flats.  Put some trails or wood skiing in there and a bridge over clay brook to get back to base of new lift.  I bet people would ride SB from North to get over there to eat too. 

I think a bigger glen house would be nice, maybe double the size at the most and put real food service in there to take the load off the base lodge.  Nice big deck too.  Could be a summer wedding venue also by using GMX.  Not gonna happen though as North is not the focus of capital and resources.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 17, 2019)

tumbler said:


> .  Turn GH into a 6 pack (no bubbles)


  No bubbles, no six-packs.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> +1



Ok fine no bubbles. Lol. 

But I am still a proponent of the terrain expansion at North that was once mentioned. New lodge and some enhancements over there and maybe that’s back on the table. I really don’t care to see much more on Lincoln peak side. Other than some non-ski related investments.  Time to start putting the traffic elsewhere. 


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## djd66 (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> No bubbles, no six-packs.



Yeah,.. enough with all this technology that could improve the customer experience on a cold windy day.  Let's go back to tow ropes.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 17, 2019)

djd66 said:


> Yeah,.. enough with all this technology that could improve the customer experience on a cold windy day.  Let's go back to tow ropes.


Not an issue with technology.  If Slide Brook was being considered for a bubble chair, that would be understandable due to the length of the ride.  For the short lift ride that is Gate House, it is totally unnecessary (and kind of laughable-just like a 6-pack), especially when talking about it in context of a new lodge at the top of the lift. A gondola to a new GH Mid-mountain lodge would be more in keeping with the mountain aesthetics, and better for off-season events.


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## djd66 (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Not an issue with technology.  If Slide Brook was being considered for a bubble chair, that would be understandable due to the length of the ride.  For the short lift ride that is Gate House, it is totally unnecessary (and kind of laughable-just like a 6-pack), especially when talking about it in context of a new lodge at the top of the lift. A gondola to a new GH Mid-mountain lodge would be more in keeping with the mountain aesthetics, and better for off-season events.



ok, point well taken.  

I doubt this would ever happen under Win,... but i would love to see the slidebrook chair converted to a Gondola or Chondola.  90% of the time I ride that thing - I freeze my ass off.  If you are coming from the South, you need to ride 3 lifts before you are skiing.


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## mrvpilgrim (Jan 17, 2019)

Winn posted this on the skimrv forum back in 2015    

"For the Mushrooom to operate again as a restaurant it certainly needs work, but the bones are good. However,t he biggest issue is permitting. It will require us to add additional water into the system. Permitting has a formula based on the type of use and the capacity. We would have to drill another well and add that into the system. That is certainly possible and one day we will do it, but it is not the highest priority right now. "


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2019)

djd66 said:


> ok, point well taken.
> 
> I doubt this would ever happen under Win,... but i would love to see the slidebrook chair converted to a Gondola or Chondola.  90% of the time I ride that thing - I freeze my ass off.  If you are coming from the South, you need to ride 3 lifts before you are skiing.



I highly doubt we will see Slide Brook become a gondola or bubble.  They have cut back its operations for quite some time now.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 17, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont know that that's true.  if they have to build something anyway, how much more would it cost to make it bigger.


With current usage patterns at North, I can't imagine building an entirely new or dramatically expanded Glen House would pencil out.  It's open for 3.5 months a year.  Different story if North was used as the early/late season venue (as it should be), but that ship as sailed.  

My guess is that an expanded deck with more seating room is the best you can expect.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I highly doubt we will see Slide Brook become a gondola or bubble.  They have cut back its operations for quite some time now.



While I agree that I doubt we would see Slide Brook become a gondola or bubble (just isn't a lot of value/ROI to do so), I'm not sure what you mean by they have cut back its operations for quite some time now. They run it 7 days a week if snow-pack on the access trails and temperatures along the line are sufficient. Not sure what more we could ask for.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Not an issue with technology.  If Slide Brook was being considered for a bubble chair, that would be understandable due to the length of the ride.  For the short lift ride that is Gate House, it is totally unnecessary (and kind of laughable-just like a 6-pack), especially when talking about it in context of a new lodge at the top of the lift. A gondola to a new GH Mid-mountain lodge would be more in keeping with the mountain aesthetics, and better for off-season events.



More so than being overkill for a pod like Gate House, a bubble 6-pack just isn't a smart investment in most cases.  There is a reason that Hermitage is BK.  There's a reason Ascutney is BK (even though that was a HSQ).  Smart, independent resorts don't make those commitments.  You're looking at anywhere from $6-10M or more in capital - imagine what SB could do with that money.

Now if you can get that Hermitage 6 pack for a 50% discount, then maybe that starts to make sense.  But even then, you'd want to prioritize Bravo well before GH.  Bravo is the year-round workhorse and has WAAAAAAYYY more hours on it than GH.  

Any suggestion to the contrary is basically fan fic.


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2019)

What is the life expectancy of a HSQ?  Bravo and Gatehouse are 23 years old and as stated above has lot of hours on it.  Slide Brook same age but much less hours.  

Look at the line at GH on the weekends, those are the skiers you want to get back up on the hill learning to ski and not remembering their experience as standing in line.  Thus the reasoning for a 6.

I would love to have Bravo be a 4 seater bubble- it's always windy.  Doesn't have to be heated but taking the chill off would be nice.  Nothing wrong with improved technology.  I don't hear anyone pining to bring the old slow Sugar Bravo triple back...


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## Hawk (Jan 17, 2019)

I think that they already spent a bunch of money the last couple of years upgrading and/or replacing the communications and electronics on Bravo and GH.  I doubt that any replacements are in order any time soon.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Look at the line at GH on the weekends, those are the skiers you want to get back up on the hill learning to ski and not remembering their experience as standing in line.  Thus the reasoning for a 6.



An HS-6 vs an HSQ doesn't really mean more capacity though. Spacing on a 6 pack is often wider than a quad to allow more time for loading to reduce load errors. So you have more people per chair, but less chairs on the line.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I highly doubt we will see Slide Brook become a gondola or bubble.  They have cut back its operations for quite some time now.



I wonder if converting it to a gondola (or bubble chair) would increase it's usage? Isn't the reason that it doesn't run, until there is sufficient snowpack underneath to allow rescue access, because of the risk of frost bite? Wouldn't that lower the risk?


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> An HS-6 vs an HSQ doesn't really mean more capacity though. Spacing on a 6 pack is often wider than a quad to allow more time for loading to reduce load errors. So you have more people per chair, but less chairs on the line.



good point


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 17, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Look at the line at GH on the weekends, those are the skiers you want to get back up on the hill learning to ski and not remembering their experience as standing in line.  Thus the reasoning for a 6.


  Referencing new skiers, they should be very happy with the new lift installed on the beginner hill last year.  I would hope the enjoyment of being on an uncrowded ski hill would greatly outweigh the memory of a few minutes wait in a lift line.  There is no need for a behemoth 6-pack at any ski hill, unless the need for more skier's on the hill ($$) outweighs the overall skier experience.  If you want to talk about long lift lines, I don't remember ever hearing anyone complain that at 6-pack is needed for Castlerock, btw.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Referencing new skiers, they should be very happy with the new lift installed on the beginner hill last year.  I would hope the enjoyment of being on an uncrowded ski hill would greatly outweigh the memory of a few minutes wait in a lift line.  There is no need for a behemoth 6-pack at any ski hill, unless the need for more skier's on the hill ($$) outweighs the overall skier experience.  If you want to talk about long lift lines, I don't remember ever hearing anyone complain that at 6-pack is needed for Castlerock, btw.



I agree. I see a 6-pack as a marketing gimmick primarily and don't see there being a good justification for them.

Very valid point about not wanting to overcrowd trails either. I think the uphill vs downhill capacity of the Gate House side is a very good match right now (particularly for beginners and intermediates).


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## MorningWoods (Jan 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Referencing new skiers, they should be very happy with the new lift installed on the beginner hill last year.  I would hope the enjoyment of being on an uncrowded ski hill would greatly outweigh the memory of a few minutes wait in a lift line.  There is no need for a behemoth 6-pack at any ski hill, unless the need for more skier's on the hill ($$) outweighs the overall skier experience.  If you want to talk about long lift lines, I don't remember ever hearing anyone complain that at 6-pack is needed for Castlerock, btw.



No, but that chair could have at least been a triple or put more chairs on. There is more than enough terrain to support more uphill capacity and take 0 away from the experience up there. 


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## flakeydog (Jan 17, 2019)

Lines at sugarbush are pretty short, especially compared to areas elsewhere like most of southern Vermont and certainly outside of VT.  Gatehouse is usually the longest but this often exacerbated by the large volume of ski school traffic that is folded into the line.  I would hate to see more downhill traffic than there is now.

As and aside, morningwoods I hope you have your helmet on.  I suspect bringing up increased capacity on Castlerock will be considered hostile action by some here...


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I agree. I see a 6-pack as a marketing gimmick primarily and don't see there being a good justification for them.
> 
> Very valid point about not wanting to overcrowd trails either. I think the uphill vs downhill capacity of the Gate House side is a very good match right now (particularly for beginners and intermediates).



Have to disagree with you here. Cant count the amount of days that have been extended because of that extra shelter/respite the bubble provides during the inclement weather days ie rain, wind, blowing snow.... I for one would rather sit on a chairlift than a lodge during those days.

There's a reason you see more of them being made every year. 

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who initially thought the same way you did until the bluebird was installed at my home mountain.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 17, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Have to disagree with you here. Cant count the amount of days that have been extended because of that extra shelter/respite the bubble provides during the inclement weather days ie rain, wind, blowing snow.... I for one would rather sit on a chairlift than a lodge during those days.
> 
> There's a reason you see more of them being made every year.
> 
> Keep in mind this is coming from someone who initially thought the same way you did until the bluebird was installed at my home mountain.



Your home mountain's core clientele is different than the typical Sugarbush skier/rider.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 17, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> No, but that chair could have at least been a triple or put more chairs on. There is more than enough terrain to support more uphill capacity and take 0 away from the experience up there.


Hard pass.

Just stop.  The current uphill capacity is what makes the experience.   A triple chair carries 1800 PPH vs. Castlerock which IIRC is at 600 PPH due to the chair spacing.  If you don't think that dumping 3x more people into that pod would impact the skiing experience, the very essence of what Castlerock is and represents, I don't know what to tell you.  If you want quantity over quality, go somewhere else.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Have to disagree with you here. Cant count the amount of days that have been extended because of that extra shelter/respite the bubble provides during the inclement weather days ie rain, wind, blowing snow.... I for one would rather sit on a chairlift than a lodge during those days.
> 
> There's a reason you see more of them being made every year.
> 
> Keep in mind this is coming from someone who initially thought the same way you did until the bluebird was installed at my home mountain.



I said 6-pack. I never mentioned a 6-pack bubble specifically in my comment and they do make non-bubble 6's. That said I'm also anti-bubble. I'm out in all kinds of weather and not having a bubble has never stopped me from skiing before. If the weather is good enough to ski in, then it is good enough to ride a chair in. No need to waste money on a bubble.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 17, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Have to disagree with you here. Cant count the amount of days that have been extended because of that extra shelter/respite the bubble provides during the inclement weather days ie rain, wind, blowing snow.... I for one would rather sit on a chairlift than a lodge during those days.
> 
> There's a reason you see more of them being made every year.
> 
> Keep in mind this is coming from someone who initially thought the same way you did until the bluebird was installed at my home mountain.


I would suggest you either put on another layer, or stay at your home mountain.

Self-selection is a wonderful thing.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 17, 2019)

Damn forgot you sugarbush skiers are so tough and enjoy layering up past the point of comfort! What im saying is that a bubble makes days that would otherwise be not worth  the ticket price actually somewhat enjoyable. But hey what do I know.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2019)

Everyone is different. I would never want to see a bubble added to the HSQ at Wildcat.  Some people prefer the MT Snow type experience, some want things a bit more rough around the edges.  

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## gregnye (Jan 17, 2019)

I agree that Sugarbush doesn't need a bubble chair or 6-pack. In fact, out of most resorts in the Northeast, Sugarbush's lift setup is perfect as is--the fast lifts get you out of the base, and then the real terrain worth skiing is accessed via slower lifts. It's a really good setup and doesn't need to be changed. 

As for bubble chairs, I think that they are just a fad. Don't believe me? Look at Vail. They had bubbles on Riva Bahn and Vista Bahn when these lifts were originally installed in the 80's and both of bubbles since have been removed, leaving just plain chairlifts. I suspect once the bubbles get all scratched up here in the Northeast the same thing will happen.


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## machski (Jan 17, 2019)

gregnye said:


> I agree that Sugarbush doesn't need a bubble chair or 6-pack. In fact, out of most resorts in the Northeast, Sugarbush's lift setup is perfect as is--the fast lifts get you out of the base, and then the real terrain worth skiing is accessed via slower lifts. It's a really good setup and doesn't need to be changed.
> 
> As for bubble chairs, I think that they are just a fad. Don't believe me? Look at Vail. They had bubbles on Riva Bahn and Vista Bahn when these lifts were originally installed in the 80's and both of bubbles since have been removed, leaving just plain chairlifts. I suspect once the bubbles get all scratched up here in the Northeast the same thing will happen.


That is because Katz was not CEO when the old bubble chairs went in.  He is on record as saying he does not like them.  Though he owns a few at Okemo now.

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## machski (Jan 17, 2019)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Hard pass.
> 
> Just stop.  The current uphill capacity is what makes the experience.   A triple chair carries 1800 PPH vs. Castlerock which IIRC is at 600 PPH due to the chair spacing.  If you don't think that dumping 3x more people into that pod would impact the skiing experience, the very essence of what Castlerock is and represents, I don't know what to tell you.  If you want quantity over quality, go somewhere else.


Agree, the double is fine as is spacing wise.  A bit more speed would be nice (I'm talking modest gain, upping it to Max allowed line speed for a FGD which it is not at right now) but not necessary.  Spent most of my day lapping it today and never waited once.  The space is nice, allows you to chat up the lift attendant unlike any other lift really.

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## machski (Jan 17, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> I wonder if converting it to a gondola (or bubble chair) would increase it's usage? Isn't the reason that it doesn't run, until there is sufficient snowpack underneath to allow rescue access, because of the risk of frost bite? Wouldn't that lower the risk?


Ok, anyone hoping maybe to see Gondola cabins on Slidebrook some day needs to do some history research.  That is what LBO wanted when he initially proposed Slidebrook (well, he initially wanted it higher from the top of Castkerock to Upper Ellen.  You can speculate what that would have meant).  It was shot down by the local community if memory serves me because there would be too much glare up on the mountain from sun reflecting off the cabins.  Hell, the final line was chosen to minimize it's appearance from the Valley.  So no way in hell cabins ever get on that line.

A bubble chair would also bring up the dreaded glare issue.  That could be minimized because they would need to build a storage barn for warranty purposes (plenty of room on Gatehouse side for one), allowing the chairs to be off the line whenever it wasn't in use.  Not sure that would be an easier sell to the current generation in the Valley though.  Don't let me stop you from dreaming, just realize that is what it is (beyond just ROI for the resort).

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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> I wonder if converting it to a gondola (or bubble chair) would increase it's usage? Isn't the reason that it doesn't run, until there is sufficient snowpack underneath to allow rescue access, because of the risk of frost bite? Wouldn't that lower the risk?



The reason they don’t run it is money.  It’s expensive for the limited ridership they saw.  


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2019)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Hard pass.
> 
> Just stop.  The current uphill capacity is what makes the experience.   A triple chair carries 1800 PPH vs. Castlerock which IIRC is at 600 PPH due to the chair spacing.  If you don't think that dumping 3x more people into that pod would impact the skiing experience, the very essence of what Castlerock is and represents, I don't know what to tell you.  If you want quantity over quality, go somewhere else.



Right. This is what makes Castlerock unique. It is kind of funny though considering that the whole reason for such limited uphill capacity was that they kept the original lift for so long.  This area just simply dodged being modernized several times.  


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## MorningWoods (Jan 17, 2019)

machski said:


> Agree, the double is fine as is spacing wise.  A bit more speed would be nice (I'm talking modest gain, upping it to Max allowed line speed for a FGD which it is not at right now) but not necessary.  Spent most of my day lapping it today and never waited once.  The space is nice, allows you to chat up the lift attendant unlike any other lift really.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah. When I said that. I wasn’t talking full on triple, but didn’t want to get into it. I meant existing spacing and 1 more seat. Or chairs a little closer together.  Can’t compare midweek to anything. Talking about weekends when most of the non local working stiffs have to ski. Just a few long @ss waits in a row got me thinking. 


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> The reason they don’t run it is money.  It’s expensive for the limited ridership they saw.



I still don't understand this comment. They run it 7 days a week when conditions allow. Are you talking about present day or years ago when they only ran it weekends/holidays?


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## ducky (Jan 17, 2019)

Quick subject change. 

Excellent dinner at Sage tonight. Saw many locals and ski friends at the bar. Paul and Ana (owners) were both there greeting and keeping a watchful eye. I had the mussels, steak au poivre, and tiramisu.

Best of luck to them, this their first big weekend!!


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2019)

ducky said:


> Quick subject change.
> 
> Excellent dinner at Sage tonight. Saw many locals and ski friends at the bar. Paul and Ana (owners) were both there greeting and keeping a watchful eye. I had the mussels, steak au poivre, and tiramisu.
> 
> Best of luck to them, this their first big weekend!!



Nice timing! Was just talking about Sage tonight and thinking about when we should go and check them out. Figured we would give them a few weeks to have a chance to hear some feedback from others around town.


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## benski (Jan 17, 2019)

WinS said:


> Thank you. We are out in Taos at the annual winter meeting of the Mountain Collective resorts. First time here and it is an awesome mountain. There is some really good steep terrain that can be accessed both by lifts and hiking.  Skied Kachina Peak and the hamstring felt good



I saw They had a big avalanche on the News. Did you see it?


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 18, 2019)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If you want quantity over quality, go somewhere else.


  +1.  Nicely stated.


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> The reason they don’t run it is money.  It’s expensive for the limited ridership they saw.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not true. May have once been the case, but it is scheduled to run everyday that Mount Ellen is open if we can. The only reason it will not run is insufficient snow depth to get snowmobiles in to the towers, cold, wind or a mechanical problem.


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2019)

benski said:


> I saw They had a big avalanche on the News. Did you see it?



Yes, very sad.  We skied Kachina Peak a couple of times while out there.  I was surprised to hear of the avalanche because they only received a few inches of snow on Wednesday.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2019)

WinS said:


> Not true. May have once been the case, but it is scheduled to run everyday that Mount Ellen is open if we can. The only reason it will not run is insufficient snow depth to get snowmobiles in to the towers, cold, wind or a mechanical problem.



I often think thetrailboss is stuck in the past from when he was at Sugarbush years ago and just uses that information as "current" when many things have changed since he moved out west.

On another note...glad to see you posting. The Taos news was a little scary as I knew you said previously that you were skiing Kachina peak earlier this week.


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## mikec142 (Jan 18, 2019)

Re: changing anything about the CR lift.  To me (and I'm sure to a ton of others) the allure of Castlerock is the terrain, the snow quality, and the lack of crowds.  I skied Middle Earth several times this past Saturday and Sunday and I was the only one on the trail (or at least visible).  For me, while I don't love standing in line, I do appreciate the chance to rest my legs.  

Bottom line...Don't change a thing about CR.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Re: changing anything about the CR lift.  To me (and I'm sure to a ton of others) the allure of Castlerock is the terrain, the snow quality, and the lack of crowds.  I skied Middle Earth several times this past Saturday and Sunday and I was the only one on the trail (or at least visible).  For me, while I don't love standing in line, I do appreciate the chance to rest my legs.
> 
> Bottom line...Don't change a thing about CR.



+1

I firmly believe anyone that says CR can (or should) support more uphill capacity doesn't "get it" about what that area of the mountain is all about.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> +1
> 
> I firmly believe anyone that says CR can (or should) support more uphill capacity doesn't "get it" about what that area of the mountain is all about.



I was under the impression that the mountain rebuilt the CR chair with as close to the exact specifications of the old one in order keep the same experience. Cant say there are many resorts willing to do that, but for this situation they really preserved a gem.....of which are becoming all to rare across the state.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 18, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Damn forgot you sugarbush skiers are so tough and enjoy layering up past the point of comfort! What im saying is that a bubble makes days that would otherwise be not worth  the ticket price actually somewhat enjoyable. But hey what do I know.


Yes - I'm sure all the people who bought into The Hermitage are super psyched about having that bubble 6-pack to protect them from the elements.  

Oh wait...


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 18, 2019)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Yes - I'm sure all the people who bought into The Hermitage are super psyched about having that bubble 6-pack to protect them from the elements.
> 
> Oh wait...



Yeah maybe the fact that they actually had to buy the damn thing should of been a red flag.....


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I was under the impression that the mountain rebuilt the CR chair with as close to the exact specifications of the old one in order keep the same experience. Cant say there are many resorts willing to do that, but for this situation they really preserved a gem.....of which are becoming all to rare across the state.



That is correct


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> +1
> 
> I firmly believe anyone that says CR can (or should) support more uphill capacity doesn't "get it" about what that area of the mountain is all about.


  ++1


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2019)

Loving the new Snowdon bubble 6.

After years of freezing in the wind riding the old quad it's nice to now ride a limo to the top in comfort. And so far it's still ski on. Although I'm sure that will change. Fast too, you can now actually rack up serious vertical lapping it.


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## djd66 (Jan 18, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Yeah. When I said that. I wasn’t talking full on triple, but didn’t want to get into it. I meant existing spacing and 1 more seat. Or chairs a little closer together.  Can’t compare midweek to anything. Talking about weekends when most of the non local working stiffs have to ski. Just a few long @ss waits in a row got me thinking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



MW - I completely get what you are saying and I agree.  Adding more chairs between existing chairs will not effect the current skiing experience at all. The only effect would be adding a few more people on the hill. Not sure what the up hill capacity with the set up they have, but adding 30% more (decrease spacing) will not change anything. 

Yeah, I am one of those working stiffs that skis weekends. Standing in line watching the chair go by every 30 seconds is right up there with watching paint dry. 

I’m sure there will be some castle rock Chair Huggers that will tell me I don’t get it. Yep, I don’t.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 18, 2019)

djd66 said:


> The only effect would be adding a few more people on the hill.



That's pretty much what the Chair Huggers don't want... it skied off any quicker.


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## Zand (Jan 18, 2019)

There's 50 other ski areas in New England with way too much uphill capacity that you can go to but sure let's try to ruin the one that doesn't.


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## benski (Jan 18, 2019)

I think the long lines for Casterock demonstrates how New England is currently deficient in narrow Ski trails.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2019)

Zand said:


> There's 50 other ski areas in New England with way too much uphill capacity that you can go to but sure let's try to ruin the one that doesn't.



Don’t worry. It won’t be changed any time soon.


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## djd66 (Jan 18, 2019)

benski said:


> I think the long lines for Casterock demonstrates how New England is currently deficient in narrow Ski trails.



I completely agree with this.  I would also add the fact that there is a network of trails that are completely natural and without snowmaking.


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## Newpylong (Jan 19, 2019)

I lived in Waitsfield in the mid 90s and when LBO bought the place there were plans for snowmaking, etc

The people wanted to crucify him, newspaper articles galore and he relented to transform everything but Castlerock. Glad that bullet got dodged.


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## ducky (Jan 19, 2019)

My favorite time of the year is before they open the Castlerock lift and we hike from Paradise. As a snowboarder I just walk the whole way and there is zero difference in time between me and the skiers who ski the flats - generally about 20 mins. I get out of the way of passing skiers and they generally let me pass on the up-hills. In my late 50s I am good for about four hikes in a day. If the lift line is 30-40 minutes, why not just do the hike and get some solitude and exercise in the process? Without a doubt the experience (at current capacity or less) of uncrowded, narrow, natural terrain trails is what makes this such a great place. That and the woods. Sometimes, when Heaven's Gate is down, the reverse hike is worth it.

Tonight's storm downgraded a bit but still looking at 9-18". Will the lifts be running with 50mph northerly gusts? Better wax with some hard blue if so.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2019)

Yeah, I remember that.  He probably would have turned Castle Rock into Oz or Whitecap.  Sunday River west.  

If the Balsams ever happens, I hope he isn't in charge of trail design.

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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I lived in Waitsfield in the mid 90s and when LBO bought the place there were plans for snowmaking, etc
> 
> The people wanted to crucify him, newspaper articles galore and he relented to transform everything but Castlerock. Glad that bullet got dodged.



I have a 1994 POWDER Magazine with an article on this.


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## 1dog (Jan 19, 2019)

*Village Quad*



tumbler said:


> What is the life expectancy of a HSQ?  Bravo and Gatehouse are 23 years old and as stated above has lot of hours on it.  Slide Brook same age but much less hours.
> 
> Look at the line at GH on the weekends, those are the skiers you want to get back up on the hill learning to ski and not remembering their experience as standing in line.  Thus the reasoning for a 6.
> 
> I would love to have Bravo be a 4 seater bubble- it's always windy.  Doesn't have to be heated but taking the chill off would be nice.  Nothing wrong with improved technology.  I don't hear anyone pining to bring the old slow Sugar Bravo triple back...



I am sure the reasons were many, but my wosh was the VQ would have gone up to GH are and relieved all the green trail riders and maybe some ski school folks. That would have solved the over-crowding GH - generally 9:30-11:30 or when SB is down. Has been a good year so far for lift issues.


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## machski (Jan 19, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I lived in Waitsfield in the mid 90s and when LBO bought the place there were plans for snowmaking, etc
> 
> The people wanted to crucify him, newspaper articles galore and he relented to transform everything but Castlerock. Glad that bullet got dodged.


Wasn't the top of Castlerock also the original proposal by him to connect North and South?  I seem to recall that as it was the shortest distance.

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## shadyjay (Jan 19, 2019)

machski said:


> Wasn't the top of Castlerock also the original proposal by him to connect North and South?  I seem to recall that as it was the shortest distance.



Top of North Lynx to top of GMX was the Slide Brook proposal, before LBO.  That's the reasoning behind the original name for the lift up there... North Link Poma.


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## benski (Jan 19, 2019)

shadyjay said:


> Top of North Lynx to top of GMX was the Slide Brook proposal, before LBO.  That's the reasoning behind the original name for the lift up there... North Link Poma.



Also its the shortest distance. that would be 1.36 miles vs 2.00. The left turn on Rim Run is the shortest distance, 1 mile. Along the ridge would be silly, 1.15 miles, wind exposed, and on the long trail rite of way. There was also a proposals for 2-5 lifts with trails in slide brook. I found them online once but can't find them again. but I think there would have been 2 more base areas off German flats under the plan. Maybe Win could post them, since I assume they are all on file.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2019)

benski said:


> Also its the shortest distance. that would be 1.36 miles vs 2.00. The left turn on Rim Run is the shortest distance, 1 mile. Along the ridge would be silly, 1.15 miles, wind exposed, and on the long trail rite of way. There was also a proposals for 2-5 lifts with trails in slide brook. I found them online once but can't find them again. but I think there would have been 2 more base areas off German flats under the plan. Maybe Win could post them, since I assume they are all on file.



Actually, I have never seen that plan but can check if we have something in the files. I do know that the compromise to get the Slidebrook lift in resulted in limiting anything further that can be done in the Slidebrook basin. No additional recreation or construction.  The Beech trees make this a very sensitive bear habitat. Another constraint built into the permit is only running the lift from the end of November through March. It would be a ride during peak foliage but that is not allowed.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

WinS said:


> Actually, I have never seen that plan but can check if we have something in the files. I do know that the compromise to get the Slidebrook lift in resulted in limiting anything further that can be done in the Slidebrook basin. No additional recreation or construction.  The Beech trees make this a very sensitive bear habitat. Another constraint built into the permit is only running the lift from the end of November through March. It would be a ride during peak foliage but that is not allowed.



That would actually be a beautiful ride during foliage season. Too bad.

In other news, is it accurate on the trail report that Exterminator was groomed last night? If so, I can't recall the last time that was done.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 21, 2019)

benski said:


> Also its the shortest distance. that would be 1.36 miles vs 2.00. The left turn on Rim Run is the shortest distance, 1 mile. Along the ridge would be silly, 1.15 miles, wind exposed, and on the long trail rite of way. There was also a proposals for 2-5 lifts with trails in slide brook. I found them online once but can't find them again. but I think there would have been 2 more base areas off German flats under the plan. Maybe Win could post them, since I assume they are all on file.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 21, 2019)




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## rtjcbrown (Jan 21, 2019)

Win: Are there any parts to these old master plans that are still a possibility?


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## machski (Jan 21, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> Win: Are there any parts to these old master plans that are still a possibility?


I would think the only thing possible would be the North expansion above Inverness.  The Slidebrook stuff as Win said is totally off the table 

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## Plowboy (Jan 21, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I lived in Waitsfield in the mid 90s and when LBO bought the place there were plans for snowmaking, etc
> 
> The people wanted to crucify him, newspaper articles galore and he relented to transform everything but Castlerock. Glad that bullet got dodged.



The bumper sticker was........"More Rock---Less Otten"


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

machski said:


> I would think the only thing possible would be the North expansion above Inverness.  The Slidebrook stuff as Win said is totally off the table



There are parts of that old plan that are not within Slide Brook other than just the Inverness peak expansion. Of course if you even suggested cutting some of those other trails today you might have a riot as a few go through some pretty popular unofficial glades.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> That would actually be a beautiful ride during foliage season. Too bad.
> 
> In other news, is it accurate on the trail report that Exterminator was groomed last night? If so, I can't recall the last time that was done.



We were going to do Lower Exterminator but did not get to it due to the wind and working elsewhere. We would not groom Upper Exterminator since we do not make snow up there.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2019)

machski said:


> I would think the only thing possible would be the North expansion above Inverness.  The Slidebrook stuff as Win said is totally off the table
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes, that area above Inverness is a possibility for trails or glades.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

WinS said:


> We were going to do Lower Exterminator but did not get to it due to the wind and working elsewhere. We would not groom Upper Exterminator since we do not make snow up there.



That makes much more sense. Someone must've just checked off the wrong trail on the report then.


Out of curiosity, why is no snow made on Upper Exterminator even though pipes are still there? Although in all honesty I like it completely natural and also find skiing around the hydrants sort of fun too in a weird way so I'm quite happy no snow is made on it.


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## 1dog (Jan 21, 2019)

And the potential for the Most Famous Bar in NE ski country? Mushroom???

The press would be amazing - as would the views. ( Just transfer Wunderbar license? or expand it)

Either way, Happy 60th anniversary SB. Been a great ride for many of us for years.  

Its a lot of fun speculating how we'd all spend OPM. ROI is the question.

Both monetary and experiential.


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## rocks860 (Jan 21, 2019)

I’ve been skiing at sugarbush basically my entire life (since I was 2 and am now 36) and I love it the way it is. Glad it never turned into a killington type mountain.


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## pinnoke (Jan 21, 2019)

If that's the criteria, why is Lower Domino on this evening's grooming plan (according to this afternoon's snow report update)? In addition, Moonshine and Lower Moonshine, which I've known to be groomed on rare occasions, are on the plan, too
. Of course, I look forward to the Spring's annual consideration of a Middle Earth groom, which is a treat if you catch it right!





WinS said:


> We were going to do Lower Exterminator but did not get to it due to the wind and working elsewhere. We would not groom Upper Exterminator since we do not make snow up there.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> If that's the criteria, why is Lower Domino on this evening's grooming plan (according to this afternoon's snow report update)? In addition, Moonshine and Lower Moonshine, which I've known to be groomed on rare occasions, are on the plan, too
> . Of course, I look forward to the Spring's annual consideration of a Middle Earth groom, which is a treat if you catch it right!



I guess I was not clear. We do occasionally groom trails without snowmaking if snow pack is deep enough and it will improve the conditions. Upper Exterminator has a lot of rock and steep so would not want to take a $350K groomer down it. The trails we will do once or twice a year include Middle Earth, Cotilllion, Twist, Moonshine, Lower Domino, Paradise Extension, Walt’s, Semi Tough. We have done Upper Domino but that is very tricky and really needs good depth as well as Castlerock Run.  It is ideal to do these ahead of fresh snow. Someone once asked if we ever groomed Rumble. Maybe the old orange Tucker could be brought out of retirement.&#55357;&#56832; nice to see everyone watching the snow reports.


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## Zand (Jan 21, 2019)

I suppose grooming Rumble would be slightly easier than Liftline


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> That makes much more sense. Someone must've just checked off the wrong trail on the report then.
> View attachment 24499
> 
> Out of curiosity, why is no snow made on Upper Exterminator even though pipes are still there? Although in all honesty I like it completely natural and also find skiing around the hydrants sort of fun too in a weird way so I'm quite happy no snow is made on it.



I imagine the issue is money.  Back in the day they used to make snow on it and once in a great while winch it.  Hell, they have even winched FIS before.  

I was quite surprised to see in the recent post that they have cut back on grooming Walt's and Semi-Tough.  The former was groomed regularly when I last skied there and is a great trail.  I guess if I were still in Vermont I would be even more disappointed with Sugarbush than I was my last season there.  Oh well.....


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## 1dog (Jan 21, 2019)

*Slide Brook Buses -*



thetrailboss said:


> I imagine the issue is money.  Back in the day they used to make snow on it and once in a great while winch it.  Hell, they have even winched FIS before.
> 
> I was quite surprised to see in the recent post that they have cut back on grooming Walt's and Semi-Tough.  The former was groomed regularly when I last skied there and is a great trail.  I guess if I were still in Vermont I would be even more disappointed with Sugarbush than I was my last season there.  Oh well.....



( a little self-interest here - we are ok with some being disappointed here - can't please everyone and certainy can't handle everyone in one ski hill.)

Speaking of dissapointed. . . . .  whats up with the small buses on North/South routes? Those larger buses could handle the crowds, no so with the half pints.

Along with everyone becoming a tree skier, its a circus down at the bottom weekends.

Thought we have Mad Bus, as well as Bush buses, last two times there only had the smaller ones.

Did I miss a thread?

Jay closed today -60 wind chill.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I imagine the issue is money.  Back in the day they used to make snow on it and once in a great while winch it.  Hell, they have even winched FIS before.
> 
> I was quite surprised to see in the recent post that they have cut back on grooming Walt's and Semi-Tough.  The former was groomed regularly when I last skied there and is a great trail.  I guess if I were still in Vermont I would be even more disappointed with Sugarbush than I was my last season there.  Oh well.....



FIS used to be groomed pretty regularly back when I first started skiing at SB. I'm perfectly ok with it not being groomed though. A groomed FIS only needs about a dozen or so turns to ski down and takes no time at all since the trail is rather short. Ungroomed is more challenging and more interesting.

As for Walt's and Semi-Tough, I think the current grooming strategy on them only when needed is perfect. Those trails are so much fun when left alone and only flattened once in a while to "reset" them or break up some firm conditions. There's no need to groom lower elevation natural trails like that too often. They can also act as a great introduction to natural terrain skiing for lower level skiers. Why ruin that by over-grooming them?

I don't get why you think these things would be "disappointing". As a passholder I see very little to be disappointed about most of the time. I think the investments and improvements over the past several years have been very prudent and well spent. We're not wasting money on flashy unnecessary items like some other resorts do. While I certainly don't agree with every single decision made, I think the vast majority of time Win and his team make the right calls overall.


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## ingsy (Jan 21, 2019)

^^ agreed.  Semi-Tough was awesome this weekend - no changes needed.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> FIS used to be groomed pretty regularly back when I first started skiing at SB. I'm perfectly ok with it not being groomed though. A groomed FIS only needs about a dozen or so turns to ski down and takes no time at all since the trail is rather short. Ungroomed is more challenging and more interesting.



To be clear, in my experience, they only groomed Upper FIS on rare events when things needed to be reset.  I was not saying that it was a regularly groomed trail.  Nor was I suggesting it should be.  



> As for Walt's and Semi-Tough, I think the current grooming strategy on them only when needed is perfect. Those trails are so much fun when left alone and only flattened once in a while to "reset" them or break up some firm conditions. There's no need to groom lower elevation natural trails like that too often. They can also act as a great introduction to natural terrain skiing for lower level skiers. Why ruin that by over-grooming them?



I think some clarification is needed here.  I was responding to the comment Win made that these two trails have been put in the category of groomed "once or twice a season".  Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that grooming these once a week or as needed is in any way "over-grooming."  It seems like there is a lot of room between once to twice a season and once a week, but to each his own.  My last season was 2011 and up until that point they regularly groomed Walt's...on the order of Friday, Saturday nights and then again as needed as you suggest.  This was because it is, as you said, a nice transition trail from the former Sunny D area to the upper mountain.  Personally, I liked it groomed when the base was sufficient.  

And there are lots of areas that regularly groom natural trails when there is sufficient base.  In the east it is a necessary thing with the freeze-thaw cycle.  



> I don't get why you think these things would be "disappointing". As a passholder I see very little to be disappointed about most of the time. I think the investments and improvements over the past several years have been very prudent and well spent. We're not wasting money on flashy unnecessary items like some other resorts do. While I certainly don't agree with every single decision made, I think the vast majority of time Win and his team make the right calls overall.



So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)?  When they are offering less services?  Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could?  When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things?  When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?  

Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons.  If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed.  I think justifiably so.  We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure.  I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).

One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier.  "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier.  Why don't you have an MRG pass?"  he asked.  "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski.  I want snowmaking and open terrain."  My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open.  A lot of us don't like that.  The way things used to be done was why I skied there.  But times change and I get that.  I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.


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## skiur (Jan 21, 2019)

In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.


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## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2019)

skiur said:


> In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.



If there is natural snow


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> If there is natural snow
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Bingo


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I think some clarification is needed here.  I was responding to the comment Win made that these two trails have been put in the category of groomed "once or twice a season".  Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that grooming these once a week or as needed is in any way "over-grooming."  It seems like there is a lot of room between once to twice a season and once a week, but to each his own.  My last season was 2011 and up until that point they regularly groomed Walt's...on the order of Friday, Saturday nights and then again as needed as you suggest.  This was because it is, as you said, a nice transition trail from the former Sunny D area to the upper mountain.  Personally, I liked it groomed when the base was sufficient.



I'd say even once a week is too much for those trails. I'd also say from my memory that Walts is groomed more than once a twice a year typically (in fact it was just on the grooming report last night and I doubt that's the last time for the season). As long as we keep getting snow to refresh surfaces, Walt's typically stays in very good shape. Semi-Tough is probably in the category of being only groomed once or twice a year. That's absolutely sufficient most years for that trail. Inverness is not a high traffic area so those trails tend to hold up really well.



> So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)?  When they are offering less services?  Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could?  When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things?  When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?



Well, I'm actually paying LESS now than I was just a few seasons ago. But even if I wasn't, I don't see not using snow-making on trails that often don't need it as offering less services. Bravo never "officially" had snow-making from what I remember. Years ago my understanding is they pulled hoses through the woods to make some snow on it a bunch of times. As for Exterminator, I said in one of my prior posts that I actually like it being left all natural and not having snow blown on it. So for me, this isn't a reduction of services either. It is actually "more services" for me as not covering it with man-made means there are more all-natural trails which are my preference. It happens that this "extra service" from my perspective also is lower cost. 

I also disagree with your band-aid statement. You do admit that lift issues have gone down...but that is because they spent significant capital to address the issues that they had for those couple years. A significant outlay of capex is not a "band-aid" approach. 



> Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons.  If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed.  I think justifiably so.  We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure.  I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).



Keep in mind, Lincoln Peak is the primary early/late season base now. Even if they did have Exterminator on the snow-making list, it would in all likelihood be at the bottom of the priority list. GMVS needs a shit-ton of snow for their trails (Inverness and now Brambles gets a ton of snow-making too) and is always given priority. Then you have a ton of snow used for the terrain park which is a rather important priority to give the terrain park crowd somewhere to go. Then you have to cover your core T2B trails (Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way, Mainstream, Straight Shot, etc). We've had pretty good temps this year and for the most part they've been blowing whenever temps allowed. Even so, the last couple snow-making trails at ME were just done last week (FIS and Cliffs). So the way I see it, Exterminator would only just be getting snow-making somewhere around now. Keep in mind that ME only has 4K GPM capacity for snow-making if I remember correctly. Hypothetically speaking, if you were making snow on Exterminator and wanted it done earlier, what other trails would you sacrifice/delay in the schedule to make that happen?



> One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier.  "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier.  Why don't you have an MRG pass?"  he asked.  "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski.  I want snowmaking and open terrain."  My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open.  A lot of us don't like that.  The way things used to be done was why I skied there.  But times change and I get that.  I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.



I don't particularly agree with your statement that they aren't aggressive in opening. Most years they are among the second group of ski areas in VT to open (with K being alone in the first group). Not like they are opening after everyone else. And they've been open until May for 10 of the last 12 years (which is more than most other VT resorts with the exception of K and perhaps Jay). As is they start making snow November 1. Making snow before that is quite risky in the east. Is that risk really worth it to _maybe _open the first or second weekend of November if you're lucky and the weather cooperates instead of the 3rd weekend as they currently do most years?

If they weren't opening until December or the very end of November then maybe I could see your argument. As is though, I just don't see it making good business sense to try to open earlier than they do. I'd rather see the resort make smart decisions that lead to long term sustainability rather than gamble and hope to get lucky and manage to open early November a handful of times.



skiur said:


> In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.



I fully agree. If someone wants excessive grooming, there are plenty of other mountains to visit. I like the fact that Sugarbush leaves so much ungroomed. And if there's no natural snow, that's when you ski the other 70% of terrain that does have snow-making.


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## Newpylong (Jan 21, 2019)

Bravo has never had snowmaking outside of one hydrant on the headwall off a short lateral through the woods that can be jumped from the Elbow line. It is very rarely if ever used, its one of those things you need to stick a double rat on to do any good.

ASC made snow on Exterminator every year. If it was groomed we actually used to run GS on it but more often than not the bumps were marvelous.

Win can you explain the thought process behind not putting a base down in lean years on this anymore? I know there was a serious snowmaker injury on it a while back and that pretty much ended it - but there certainly are more dangerous trails to make snow on there.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> To be clear, in my experience, they only groomed Upper FIS on rare events when things needed to be reset.  I was not saying that it was a regularly groomed trail.  Nor was I suggesting it should be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I won’t even respond to what are a number of opinions from someone who has not been here since 2011. Everyone is free to have their own opinion. 

But a couple of factual corrections. Yes, we do not make snow on Upper Exterminator any more. The only snow making on Bravo was when we dragged a gun through to cover the head fall.  My clarification on Walt’s and Semi-Tough. We will groom when enough snow to improve them.  I should not have included them in the ones I said were done a couple of times a year. They are important beginner/intermediate trails and we would like to groom as much as possible on at least one of them. 

And, if you were still around, you would know that we are one of the first to open and last to close in the East and not embarrassed by having a 160 plus day season. Pass prices are also less than they were in 2011.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)?  When they are offering less services?  Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could?  When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things?  When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?
> 
> Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons.  If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed.  I think justifiably so.  We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure.  I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).
> 
> One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier.  "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier.  Why don't you have an MRG pass?"  he asked.  "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski.  I want snowmaking and open terrain."  My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open.  A lot of us don't like that.  The way things used to be done was why I skied there.  But times change and I get that.  I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.



FWIW - season pass prices have down over last couple of years and there are many more options available.  

I spend a lot of time skiing at Mt Ellen and no one is complaining that there isn't snowmaking on Exterminator, Bravo and Lower Exterminator.  I personally prefer the natural snow trails at Mt Ellen and there are plenty of groomer options.   If you want steep, groomed styro snow then there are always Steins and Organ Grinder at Lincoln  Peak.  I'm fine with limited, if ever grooming of Walts and Semi-Tough.  Snowmaking has increased dramatically on Which Way and Brambles now has snowmaking and grooming. 

 2002 is a long time ago.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

WinS said:


> I won’t even respond to what are a number of opinions from someone who has not been here since 2011. Everyone is free to have their own opinion.
> 
> But a couple of factual corrections. Yes, we do not make snow on Upper Exterminator any more. The only snow making on Bravo was when we dragged a gun through to cover the head fall.  My clarification on Walt’s and Semi-Tough. We will groom when enough snow to improve them.  I should not have included them in the ones I said were done a couple of times a year. They are important beginner/intermediate trails and we would like to groom as much as possible on at least one of them.
> 
> And, if you were still around, you would know that we are one of the first to open and last to close in the East and not embarrassed by having a 160 plus day season. Pass prices are also less than they were in 2011.



With all due respect, Win (if this is really Win...I know that in the past there was a different handle and this poster has a different tone than the previous "Win"), you know that I have always been a big booster for the area and a big supporter.  Having a difference in opinion about the value received in terms of what one gets for the cost of a pass...or a $129 holiday lift ticket...is a valid discussion.  I know that the approach to mountain operations HAS changed.  I know that in the past you've explained your POV as to why.  That's fine.  But dismissing criticisms that a lot of folks other than me raised is easy to do when you are coming off a big snowstorm.  It's also easy to say you have a long season when mother nature HAS helped out with natural snow.  Unfortunately I know all too well that there have been a lot of times when the luck has not gone that way.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'd say even once a week is too much for those trails. I'd also say from my memory that Walts is groomed more than once a twice a year typically (in fact it was just on the grooming report last night and I doubt that's the last time for the season). As long as we keep getting snow to refresh surfaces, Walt's typically stays in very good shape. Semi-Tough is probably in the category of being only groomed once or twice a year. That's absolutely sufficient most years for that trail. Inverness is not a high traffic area so those trails tend to hold up really well.



Again, it's easy to say that natural snow is awesome when you are having a good year......




> Well, I'm actually paying LESS now than I was just a few seasons ago. But even if I wasn't, I don't see not using snow-making on trails that often don't need it as offering less services.



From that then I imagine that you are either in your 30's or at the other end of the scale.  Regardless, it still begs the question of the value received for the price.  You're happy.  Great.  



> Bravo never "officially" had snow-making from what I remember. Years ago my understanding is they pulled hoses through the woods to make some snow on it a bunch of times.



Check the maps.  It "did", but in the sense of a spur line to the head wall.  Again, it cost nothing to leave it there.  Why not maintain it and use it if needed?  Why are some so avoidant of just admitting that there is cost-cutting going on?  



> As for Exterminator, I said in one of my prior posts that I actually like it being left all natural and not having snow blown on it. So for me, this isn't a reduction of services either. It is actually "more services" for me as not covering it with man-made means there are more all-natural trails which are my preference. It happens that this "extra service" from my perspective also is lower cost.



I will be sure to check in with you after the next thaw.  I ask the question again, if the focus now is on less grooming and less snowmaking, why pay a premium when you can ski at MRG for less?  Consider that.  I like natural snow as much as the next guy, but I always paid and appreciated Sugarbush having ALL options available.  



> I also disagree with your band-aid statement. You do admit that lift issues have gone down...but that is because they spent significant capital to address the issues that they had for those couple years. A significant outlay of capex is not a "band-aid" approach.



Come on.  :roll:  How many posts can you find here complaining about Bravo, HG, NRX, and others frequently breaking down over the years?  Nowhere did I say that the latest replacements were band-aids.  They (finally) did replace Village and Sunny D...many years after most places would have. 



> Keep in mind, Lincoln Peak is the primary early/late season base now.



Yep.  And there are folks like me who still don't think this was a good idea.  But it is water under the bridge.  



> Even if they did have Exterminator on the snow-making list, it would in all likelihood be at the bottom of the priority list. GMVS needs a shit-ton of snow for their trails (Inverness and now Brambles gets a ton of snow-making too) and is always given priority. Then you have a ton of snow used for the terrain park which is a rather important priority to give the terrain park crowd somewhere to go. Then you have to cover your core T2B trails (Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way, Mainstream, Straight Shot, etc). We've had pretty good temps this year and for the most part they've been blowing whenever temps allowed. Even so, the last couple snow-making trails at ME were just done last week (FIS and Cliffs). So the way I see it, Exterminator would only just be getting snow-making somewhere around now. Keep in mind that ME only has 4K GPM capacity for snow-making if I remember correctly. Hypothetically speaking, if you were making snow on Exterminator and wanted it done earlier, what other trails would you sacrifice/delay in the schedule to make that happen?



And here is the bigger point me and others have made for years now....is the snowmaking sufficient for the kind of resort Sugarbush says it is and wants to be?  But it doesn't matter because you've got natural snow.  Enjoy it while it lasts.  



> I don't particularly agree with your statement that they aren't aggressive in opening. Most years they are among the second group of ski areas in VT to open (with K being alone in the first group). Not like they are opening after everyone else.



Again, if there is natural snow.....



> If they weren't opening until December or the very end of November then maybe I could see your argument.



Two of the last three seasons I was there this was the case.  Just FYI.  



> I fully agree. If someone wants excessive grooming, there are plenty of other mountains to visit. I like the fact that Sugarbush leaves so much ungroomed. And if there's no natural snow, that's when you ski the other 70% of terrain that does have snow-making.



Oh God.  That's not at all what I am saying.  :roll:


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> With all due respect, Win (if this is really Win...I know that in the past there was a different handle and this poster has a different tone than the previous "Win"), you know that I have always been a big booster for the area and a big supporter.  Having a difference in opinion about the value received in terms of what one gets for the cost of a pass...or a $129 holiday lift ticket.  I know that the approach to mountain operations HAS changed.  I know that in the past you've explained your POV as to why.  That's fine.  But dismissing criticisms that a lot of folks other than me raised is easy to do when you are coming off a big snowstorm.  It's also easy to say you have a long season when mother nature HAS helped out with natural snow.  Unfortunately I know all too well that there have been a lot of times when the luck has not gone that way.



LOL. Now you're questioning whether Win is really Win! This is priceless.

At any rate, who are all these "folks other than you" that have raised the concerns that you're raising? I see numerous people here (myself included) that regularly ski Sugarbush and don't have issues with the things you're mentioning. You seem like one of those people that pick the one negative review out of 100 other good ones and uses that as your "proof" that other people think that place isn't good.

PS...mother nature's natural snow assistance has virtually nothing to do with skiing Steins or Spring Fling in May. That's all on the amount of snow they make on those trails. A recent example would be that in the 2015-2016 season our total for snowfall was 156" at the summit and a mere 69" at the base. Yet we still skied on May 1st.


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## pinnoke (Jan 21, 2019)

+1 !!


cdskier said:


> FIS used to be groomed pretty regularly back when I first started skiing at SB. I'm perfectly ok with it not being groomed though. A groomed FIS only needs about a dozen or so turns to ski down and takes no time at all since the trail is rather short. Ungroomed is more challenging and more interesting.
> 
> As for Walt's and Semi-Tough, I think the current grooming strategy on them only when needed is perfect. Those trails are so much fun when left alone and only flattened once in a while to "reset" them or break up some firm conditions. There's no need to groom lower elevation natural trails like that too often. They can also act as a great introduction to natural terrain skiing for lower level skiers. Why ruin that by over-grooming them?
> 
> I don't get why you think these things would be "disappointing". As a passholder I see very little to be disappointed about most of the time. I think the investments and improvements over the past several years have been very prudent and well spent. We're not wasting money on flashy unnecessary items like some other resorts do. While I certainly don't agree with every single decision made, I think the vast majority of time Win and his team make the right calls overall.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> LOL. Now you're questioning whether Win is really Win! This is priceless.



As a Mod who dealt a lot with him, and have been here 15 years, yes I know the real McCoy.  I also know that the handle is different than the original one used.  We also gave Win special credentials (an "Industry Rep" label).  That said, if they are one and the same, great.  The Win I know was always quite diplomatic and understanding.  And I am in no way bashing. 

And you only have to go back in the 500 some pages of comments here over the years to see how my perspective takes into account a much longer period of time than the last two years.  It is OK to have constructive feedback for the places you love.


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## ss20 (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss has a lot of good points about reliability of the season in regards to snowmaking...that's why I have a pass for this little place an hour south down the street...but when the getting is good I am HAPPY to drive to Suagarbush because Killington has nothing on Castlerock and the Paradise ridgeline.  Sugarbush is wrapping up snowmaking while Killington will still be going full-bore for another 6-8 weeks.  

The bashing on Win is a bit ridiculous...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



ss20 said:


> thetrailboss has a lot of good points about reliability of the season in regards to snowmaking...that's why I have a pass for this little place an hour south down the street...but when the getting is good I am HAPPY to drive to Suagarbush because Killington has nothing on Castlerock and the Paradise ridgeline.  Sugarbush is wrapping up snowmaking while Killington will still be going full-bore for another 6-8 weeks.
> 
> The bashing on Win is a bit ridiculous...



To be clear, I'm not bashing.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, it's easy to say that natural snow is awesome when you are having a good year......



I've been skiing here in both good and bad snow years. Even in bad snow years I've never once thought "gee, I wish they had snow-making on <insert natural trail name here>". No, instead I sucked it up and skied on the 70% of trails that do have snow-making on them when the natural trails were closed.




> From that then I imagine that you are either in your 30's or at the other end of the scale.  Regardless, it still begs the question of the value received for the price.  You're happy.  Great.



30s...but not relevant as even the standard adult pass is less now than it was several years ago.



> I will be sure to check in with you after the next thaw.  I ask the question again, if the focus now is on less grooming and less snowmaking, why pay a premium when you can ski at MRG for less?  Consider that.  I like natural snow as much as the next guy, but I always paid and appreciated Sugarbush having ALL options available.



Less? MRG isn't cheap. My pass for SB was a good $200 or so cheaper than MRG's pass. And even a full-priced adult SB pass at the early rates was only $50 more than MRG. You're not even close to comparing apples to apples either. So if I was paying the adult rates, for $50 more at SB I get a longer season with a pretty good comfort level that at least 50-70% of the terrain would be open even in a year with virtually no natural snow. Meanwhile in that same scenario at MRG you'd be skiing their practice slope and that's about it. You might want to rethink your logic a bit. Even with no natural trails open SB still has a lot of terrain available. 



> Two of the last three seasons I was there this was the case. Just FYI.



Well if you left around 2011, that means 2009-2010 was one of the seasons you're referring to. That's a terrific reference point. That year SB opened December 6, Stowe opened December 6, Jay opened December 5, and Okemo opened December 5. Clearly there were some weather related challenges that year...but yea, blame Sugarbush for opening late.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> As a Mod who dealt a lot with him, and have been here 15 years, yes I know the real McCoy.  I also know that the handle is different than the original one used.  We also gave Win special credentials (an "Industry Rep" label).  That said, if they are one and the same, great.  The Win I know was always quite diplomatic and understanding.  And I am in no way bashing.
> 
> And you only have to go back in the 500 some pages of comments here over the years to see how my perspective takes into account a much longer period of time than the last two years.  It is OK to have constructive feedback for the places you love.



Win has several times here and on the MRV forums when we used them created new accounts at the start of the season and outright posted saying he forgot his username/password.

If you think his tone has changed, I'd suggest it is probably because he's tired of hearing complaints or even outright inaccurate information from someone that moved away 8 years ago and doesn't seem to have much first-hand knowledge of the current situation, yet continues to bring up things from the past even if they've already been addressed.

Constructive feedback is fine as long as it is relevant to the present day and not based on something that happened 10-15 years ago.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I've been skiing here in both good and bad snow years. Even in bad snow years I've never once thought "gee, I wish they had snow-making on <insert natural trail name here>". No, instead I sucked it up and skied on the 70% of trails that do have snow-making on them when the natural trails were closed.



Right.  But the whole point we've been discussing is that there are now at least two trails that no longer have snowmaking.  It doesn't matter when snow is good.  But there are a lot of times when having a base is critical...as you illustrated with your point about MRG and being limited to the Practice Slope.  My question is why take it out in the first place?  Why not maintain it and keep it and use it when needed? 



> So if I was paying the adult rates, for $50 more at SB I get a longer season with a pretty good comfort level that at least 50-70% of the terrain would be open even in a year with virtually no natural snow.



This is the whole debate....the amount of coverage, the speed of recovering, the ability to get terrain covered, etc.  Again, so far so good this year for you. 



> Well if you left around 2011, that means 2009-2010 was one of the seasons you're referring to. That's a terrific reference point. That year SB opened December 6, Stowe opened December 6, Jay opened December 5, and Okemo opened December 5. Clearly there were some weather related challenges that year...but yea, blame Sugarbush for opening late.



Yep.  If you go back in this long thread you will see comments about that season.  Sunday River and Killington opened in October.  The issue we had that year was that cold snaps were very short and it showed the shortcomings of SB and its ability to mobilize and cover terrain.  A lot of us wanted to see more capacity, but they have gone in a different direction.  It is what it is.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Constructive feedback is fine as long as it is relevant to the present day and not based on something that happened 10-15 years ago.



So, again, the whole big kurfuffle has been the question of why snowmaking was removed from two trails and a discussion about grooming of a couple of natural trails.  I came out and just said it was probably cost-related now probably 15 posts ago.  That's not a bad thing.  It is what it is.  I just don't understand why there's so much heat whenever the issue of snowmaking at Sugarbush is brought up.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2019)

Put me in the camp of leaving plenty of natural snow trails alone. I wouldn't groom them period. 

As for season length, Sugarbush has always been about top 5 for the past 10 years or so.  In recent memory K is always last man standing in New England.  The other players being Jay, Bush, Wildcat, Sugarloaf and Sunday River 

Hard to complain about that.  

Overall I think Sugarbush has struck a pretty good balance between modernizing infrastructure and amenities while still maintaining the classic feel it is known for.  I used to be a huge Stowe homer and a long time pass holder there. If I still lived in NVT today, Bush would get my pass business. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## benski (Jan 21, 2019)

Semi-tough should be groomed regularly? Its excellent with moguls. When I ski it, it often has great easy bump lines and good snow. Its a good gateway into mogul skiing.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 22, 2019)

benski said:


> Semi-tough should be groomed regularly? Its excellent with moguls. When I ski it, it often has great easy bump lines and good snow. Its a good gateway into mogul skiing.



+1. Same for lower domino and moonshine.  Good to have those trails for newbie bump training. 

If win ever decides to expand that terrain above Inverness. I hope it’s kept natural. Maybe some wide glades. A few skinny natural trails. Not sure what the terrain is like in there. Never skied those trees. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## benski (Jan 22, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> +1. Same for lower domino and moonshine.  Good to have those trails for newbie bump training.
> 
> If win ever decides to expand that terrain above Inverness. I hope it’s kept natural. Maybe some wide glades. A few skinny natural trails. Not sure what the terrain is like in there. Never skied those trees.
> 
> ...



I would like to see a new race course so GMVS never has to obstruct a unused trail for the course.


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## Krikaya (Jan 22, 2019)

Thanks Trailboss for speaking out about cost cutting at Sugarbush. Your experience and knowledge gives you the right to ask these questions and your tone is perfectly civil. I've often thought the same things about SB, but I don't have the history with the area like you do so I refrain from commenting.

Nothing draws the fanboys out like a criticism or even a factual or constructive comment about their favorite mountain. They lose all perspective but it's nice to see you've maintained an objective perspective.

Keep it up.


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2019)

I find that as the years go by I have less and less to complain about.  As everybody knows I would love more snow making on the cold days on the work horse trails so that we have something to ski after a rain event. I'm not going to critique the system that much any more because it is what it is.  They have a plan and that is what they have.  I now understand more since I know more people that actually work the system.  It's pretty much all good and they fight the battles they can fight.

As for cost, I am just not that cheap.  I do not see value in chasing bargains or limiting my skiing because of cost.  I buy my pass, get a MRG 3 pack and the SkiVT 4 pack and I am good to go for60 days a year.  Hell my pass this year included early ups and it was the same cost as my pass 3 years ago without the early ups.  My cost actually went down!  I realize that there are people that have cost constraints.  Its an expensive sport if you only go day by day and want to go to lots of mountains.  There are options for that with all the different group passes and discount vouchers.  You can always find an option you like if you look hard enough.  But I am not going to bitch about SB and what I get.  It's a special place that I have grown to call my home and Win is actually doing a pretty good job right now I think.


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## skiur (Jan 22, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> If there is natural snow
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Well of course that......which is why snowmaking is much less important in northern Vermont mountains than more southern locations.


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## Krikaya (Jan 22, 2019)

Please enlighten me, Hawk. Do you actually believe all these cliched, sycophantic things you write?  I'll have more respect for you if WinS actually pays you to write this nonsense.  Nobody could actually believe this.

_t's pretty much all good and they fight the battles they can fight._

it is what it is

I_t's a special place that I have grown to call my home and Win is actually doing a pretty good job right now I think. _

_They have a plan and that is what they have._

You gotta work on your turd polishing. You're not fooling anyone except the other fanboys.


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2019)

It's simple.  I pay my cost, ski a ton and get more then my fair share of untracked pow.  Probably more untracked than about 95% of the other paying customers.  I am there 50 or so days a year and have a ton of like minded friends.  We have a blast.  The costs I pay compared to Stowe, Killington, Sugarloaf, Sunday River and other comparative sized resorts are lower and it is my opinion that my experience is better here.  I used to relentlessly harp on Win about all the things I did not like.  Just go back into the history.  It was mostly snowmaking.  We had our debate, I did some research and got the facts from past and present mountain ops people, and now I do understand more about why they do the things they do.  It is not Sunday River or Killington, it will never be and that is not what they are trying to do.  If you want to call me a fanboy then great.  I have just given up being totally negative all the time.  Why, because I have no reason to.  This last weekend was a good example.  I skied down to the lift from my condo, skied like 6 slide brooks untracked and then ripped up all around the mountain for the rest of the afternoon.  Why should I be angry or have any issues with that?  and all I ask is for them to blow snow the day after a rain storm.  That's it.  Pretty simple. 
But mostly, I think that I have grown up enough to know that I do not want to be a total asshole all the time.  It's really hard work to work up that much negative energy.


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## machski (Jan 22, 2019)

I really like Sugarbush as is.  Skied it last Thursday before the storm and had a great time on just South (too cold for Slidebrook and didn't want to waste time on the bus).  My only disappointment was the end of day TTB run on Organgrinder.  Upper wasn't sure whether it wanted to be a bump run or not but not bad.  Lower was a groomer but a lot of blue ice groomer.  While a limited example, I seriously doubt the blower snow we got with wind after has helped that situation much.  So in that example, a bit more snowmaking to help dress out these types of conditions would be nice on groomed runs.

Hawk, unfortunately I believe Thursday and Friday they will get a chance to try and meet your ask.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 22, 2019)

Krikaya said:


> I don't have the history with the area like you do so I refrain from commenting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Krikaya (Jan 22, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Krikaya said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have the history with the area like you do so I refrain from commenting.
> ...


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## WWF-VT (Jan 22, 2019)

Krikaya said:


> ThinkSnow said:
> 
> 
> > Krikaya said:
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Krikaya said:
> 
> 
> > ThinkSnow said:
> ...


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## HowieT2 (Jan 22, 2019)

Krikaya said:


> ThinkSnow said:
> 
> 
> > Krikaya said:
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Krikaya said:
> 
> 
> > ThinkSnow said:
> ...


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 22, 2019)

Wow, I seem to be getting a lot of quotes incorrectly attributed to me.....


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> But I have been keeping tabs on the place and have a long history with it.  You certainly know that.  And I'm pretty sure we've met a few times.



Having a long history and knowing what happened in the past is fine. But for someone that has supposedly been keeping tabs on it you seem to have a lot of inaccurate information and seem to have missed an awful lot since you left. In the past 5 years alone there has been a rather significant investment of capital on mountain infrastructure.  I really can't say I would have done anything substantially different if I was the one making decisions on where to spend money. There's really nothing they've done on the mountain that I can think of offhand that I would say should have been skipped in favor of something else. 



thetrailboss said:


> I disagree.  Have I offered constructive criticism?  Yes, of course.  I have always supported Sugarbush as you know (or I thought you knew).  If you disagree with me that's fine.  I prefer keep the focus on the issues raised.



What issues? The perceived ones being raised by someone over two thousand miles away about a lack of snowmaking on Ext/Bravo and a lack of weekly grooming of Walt's and Semi-Tough? I don't know anyone that skis here that thinks either of those are issues. There have already been numerous people posting in this thread stating they prefer the way things are now. Just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn't mean it was the right way to do it back then. Just because a change may also coincidentally cost less doesn't mean that drove the decision or that it was the wrong decision. I'm generally very happy with the way Ext, Bravo, Walt's and Semi-tough all ski with the way they are currently handled by mountain ops.

If there are any real issues to raise, I think they would be some of the ones Howie mentioned. Those actually have merit.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 22, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> HowieT2 said:
> 
> 
> > Krikaya said:
> ...


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## HowieT2 (Jan 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Having a long history and knowing what happened in the past is fine. But for someone that has supposedly been keeping tabs on it you seem to have a lot of inaccurate information and seem to have missed an awful lot since you left. In the past 5 years alone there has been a rather significant investment of capital on mountain infrastructure.  I really can't say I would have done anything substantially different if I was the one making decisions on where to spend money. There's really nothing they've done on the mountain that I can think of offhand that I would say should have been skipped in favor of something else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



exactly.  mac n cheese cups r too small for $8.50!  This aggression shall not stand! (I kid)


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> There have already been numerous people posting in this thread stating they prefer the way things are now.



+1


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > HowieT2 said:
> ...


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## rocks860 (Jan 22, 2019)

Well I hate to derail this wonderful discussion but how is next week looking? Should I be concerned about the forecast for later this week? I’ll be heading up on Saturday but not skiing until Sunday at the earliest 


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2019)

As of right now this is the latest forecast....Snow - Freezing Rain - Rain - Snow.....Followed by really cold.  Take it as you will.  I go no matter what happens that way if it is real good I do not miss it.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 22, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> Well I hate to derail this wonderful discussion but how is next week looking? Should I be concerned about the forecast for later this week? I’ll be heading up on Saturday but not skiing until Sunday at the earliest
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'd be concerned that the surface conditions will not be what they are now, but, that being said, its not like its going to be washout thaw.  It is what it is, and it be east coast skiing.


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2019)

machski said:


> Hawk, unfortunately I believe Thursday and Friday they will get a chance to try and meet your ask.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yup.  I was just looking at that.  Lets hope we get a net gain and then that next storm they are talking about is another good one.  Pray for snow.


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## tumbler (Jan 22, 2019)

Weather's gonna do what it's gonna do, just hoping for some backside snow which always helps tremendously after a thaw/freeze event.


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## rocks860 (Jan 22, 2019)

I’ve been rather unlucky the last couple years with the week I’ve been up but being there is much better than being at work no matter what. Maybe this is just payback for the blizzard I was there for in March a couple years ago


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## machski (Jan 22, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> I’ve been rather unlucky the last couple years with the week I’ve been up but being there is much better than being at work no matter what. Maybe this is just payback for the blizzard I was there for in March a couple years ago
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't think payback, but this cycle kind of stinks.  Heck, many resorts will get what, one or 2 days tops after the storm without wind holds before the liquid comes in.  Cruel.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## rocks860 (Jan 22, 2019)

I’m just hoping it stays cold and it leans more snow than rain. It looks like there’s snow forecast next week at least


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Julius (Jan 22, 2019)

Well, stay tuned it's New England. I'll be out in it either way. Today was bluebird ass cold but the groomers offered that nice soft chalky consistency. It was a fierce wind last night, the woods filled in nicely.


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## ducky (Jan 22, 2019)

Quite mixed out there today after the wind. Groomers and bump runs somewhat icy, though some good drifts here and there. Woods up at CR, while pleasant and deep, needed very deliberate turn initiation due to wind packing - snow quite dense. Went in Gangsta woods after and, eeck, got out asap. Totally wind-blown, icy, rocks, stumps, - nasty. I guess as VHQ was open Monday there was not much else open so it got skied a lot. On the other hand, The Mall had nice little drifts between smallish bumps. Saw signs of grooming (pre-wind) on Lower Domino and Cotillion and Hi/Lo Road. Beautiful day and good to be out.

Regarding snowmaking and grooming: my wife and I also have Stowe passes (hoping to make business contacts there) and the grooming and snowmaking are no better/no worse than Sugarbush, imo. This may be different in a tougher year, dunno. The vibe at Stowe is decidedly more "corporate". One example is they no longer serve Vermont Artisan coffee (locally owned by a Waterbury family) as all Vail resorts now serve Starbucks. Their social media marketing is no longer Stowe-based reporters but is based in Pennsylvania. Sugarbush feels more authentic and independent, and more friendly, though perhaps not quite as buffed. Both mountains have great terrain - different feel though. 

Hope this event passes quickly. Josh Fox reckons more snow is coming next week.


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## ducky (Jan 22, 2019)

Sugarbush and MRG offering free skiing to furloughed Federal employees.

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/2...e-skiing-to-furloughed-workers-504707081.html


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2019)

ducky said:


> Sugarbush and MRG offering free skiing to furloughed Federal employees.
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/content/news/2...e-skiing-to-furloughed-workers-504707081.html



[emoji106]


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## 1dog (Jan 23, 2019)

*Public relations*



Edd said:


> [emoji106]



Its nice, if you're a federal employee out of work, I guess. I'd take it. That said, I'm self-employed, and when we get shut down ( snow - last year 5 days w no business) my co-workers and I don't get paid, don't get news crews there asking 'how are you gonna make it thru?' and of course, we absolutely know we are not getting back pay when the snow clears.

All these guys are gonna see back pay. 23 shutdowns since 1980 and all resolved and all get back pay. I think of it as unplanned vacation. 

I know of very few private businesses that operate with ' non-essential' employees. Those few times seem to be when they are supremely profitable and tend to waste a little more stockholders cash. Generally doesn't last more than a few years.

Well, we are all stockholders in the federal government and it's not awash in profits. 

Back pay, almost double the private sector pay when figuring in benefits/pensions/etc.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/federal-worker-pay


 I'm more inclined to see Bush give back with the ME disability program and local families passes and access to school kids programs.

I'd take it if I had access - human nature.


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## djd66 (Jan 23, 2019)

1dog said:


> Its nice, if you're a federal employee out of work, I guess. I'd take it. That said, I'm self-employed, and when we get shut down ( snow - last year 5 days w no business) my co-workers and I don't get paid, don't get news crews there asking 'how are you gonna make it thru?' and of course, we absolutely know we are not getting back pay when the snow clears.
> 
> All these guys are gonna see back pay. 23 shutdowns since 1980 and all resolved and all get back pay. I think of it as unplanned vacation.
> 
> ...




I'm self employed too,... where's the love for me when I have no income?

I do feel bad for the workers trying to make ends meet with no pay check for weeks.  They will get back pay though.  The people that are getting screwed are the non-government employees or government contractors.  No back pay for these people.

Quite honestly, if I were not getting a pay check and were concerned about feeding my family, i would not be off skiing, i would be looking for a job.


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## skiur (Jan 23, 2019)

The 10's of thousands of contractors out of work will not be getting paid.  Most services are contracted such as janitorial, food service, building maintance etc.  All these employees are out of work because of the shut down and will not be getting back pay.


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## NYDB (Jan 23, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I'm self employed too,... where's the love for me when I have no income?
> 
> I do feel bad for the workers trying to make ends meet with no pay check for weeks.  They will get back pay though.  The people that are getting screwed are the non-government employees or government contractors.  No back pay for these people.
> 
> Quite honestly, if I were not getting a pay check and were concerned about feeding my family, i would not be off skiing, i would be looking for a job.



Some people have their priorities all mixed up.


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## Los (Jan 23, 2019)

ducky said:


> Sugarbush and MRG offering free skiing to furloughed Federal employees.
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/content/news/2...e-skiing-to-furloughed-workers-504707081.html



It strikes me as a weird gesture. Something’s tone deaf about it...

Then again, who cares...


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## WinS (Jan 23, 2019)

Looking at our updated weather report it looks like temperatures will be rising through the night. We may start with some snow and wintry mix and then rain after midnight on the mountain as temps get above freezing. Rain will continue into the morning and we might get 1/2 an inch and hopefully not more, but then the temps start falling late morning with diminishing winds and we could end with 1-3" of snow before it ends.  If that happens we will be in good shape.  Unlikely to lose much base but the snow quality will depend on the actual outcome. I think the snow in the morning will actually be quite nice but we will see.


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## tumbler (Jan 23, 2019)

So why was the dedicated bus between LP and ME eliminated and replaced with a condo route?  Long wait times at Slide Brook b/c bus is full.  Now stating on snow report pack extra layers for wait times or skin to base area.  The free bus is great but seems like a goof here.  Bring back the big blue school buses!


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## djd66 (Jan 23, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So why was the dedicated bus between LP and ME eliminated and replaced with a condo route?  Long wait times at Slide Brook b/c bus is full.  Now stating on snow report pack extra layers for wait times or skin to base area.  The free bus is great but seems like a goof here.  Bring back the big blue school buses!



I agree.  I first noticed this earlier in the season (before slidebrook was skiable) when I took the bus from South to North.  The bus stopped at 4 different condos before heading over to North.  I thought maybe it was just an early season thing,... but I guess it is not.

Here's an opportunity for some local to make a few bucks on the side by shuttling people from Slidebook to the ski area for $5/head  Better yet, why doesn't the ski area just run the large bus back an forth like they did in the past?


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## benski (Jan 23, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So why was the dedicated bus between LP and ME eliminated and replaced with a condo route?  Long wait times at Slide Brook b/c bus is full.  Now stating on snow report pack extra layers for wait times or skin to base area.  The free bus is great but seems like a goof here.  Bring back the big blue school buses!



Getting to condos was an issue over MLK weekend was an issue too. They had a city bus back doing that route sunday.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 23, 2019)

coming up for sat and sunday. maybe mad river sunday. really hoping the backside of this storm produces. we are committed with a rental house in waterbury with another couple. my girlfriend's best friend and her boyfriend, and their dog. total beginner skiers so as long as its sunny and they have the bunny slope they are fine (yay $49 january learn to ski deals). but i'll be rather bummed if i am limited to the groomers one week after the major dump. i was in CO for the dump. was glad to miss the holiday weekend crowds and brutal monday cold, but always sad to not be in the east when the big snow falls. our rental is directly behind pro pig. beers will be beered.


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## mikec142 (Jan 23, 2019)

I know that people stash a car at the base of slide brook...but is there legal parking there?


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## benski (Jan 23, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I know that people stash a car at the base of slide brook...but is there legal parking there?



I think its legal to park I believe, but you can only fit 2 cars max.


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## TSQURD (Jan 23, 2019)

I think parking becomes a problem when the road gets blocked - like it was early sunday. People never cease to amaze me.

Shuttle driver told me they would only be running the big bus on holidays.


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes the buses have been an issue this year.  There are more and more people going into slide brook some totally unprepared and clueless.  Putting it on the snow report was the wrong thing to do.  The word of mouth method worked way better in my opinion.  They are not going to add additional buses so be prepared to wait anywhere from 30 minutes to over an hour at mid day.

Also do not plan to park down there.  The way it is plowed this year only 2 or 3 cars can park.  Also it is an active driveway! do not block the entrance as the residence need to get in  and out.  I know them and they said that there have been some total jackasses this year blocking them from getting in or out.  Please be respectful.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2019)

Prettt lame to not update the narrative section of the snow report by 8 am


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## WinS (Jan 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Prettt lame to not update the narrative section of the snow report by 8 am



Yes, sorry about that. We has a no show so it is getting out now.  Still some winds but dying down.  Wet soft snow and starting to cool down after noon.  It is around 40 base and summit. We hope we get an inch or two before the storm moves on.


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## WinS (Jan 24, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So why was the dedicated bus between LP and ME eliminated and replaced with a condo route?  Long wait times at Slide Brook b/c bus is full.  Now stating on snow report pack extra layers for wait times or skin to base area.  The free bus is great but seems like a goof here.  Bring back the big blue school buses!



This service is run by Green Mountain Transit and we supply the primarily private funding. The Bridges and Sugar Lodge pitch in too.  Each year we have to negotiate with them on the routes and they look at ride numbers in making decision. We have a bus that leaves LP and ME every 20 minutes and does back and  forth to the base areas stopping at Bridges, Club Sugarbush and the Sugarbush Inn along the way. On the busy weekends and Holidays they put the big bus on that runs continuously back and forth between the two areas and will pick up at Slidebrook.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Prettt lame to not update the narrative section of the snow report by 8 am



Lame to complain in a ski forum about the snow report ...are you heading to the mountain today ?


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## djd66 (Jan 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Prettt lame to not update the narrative section of the snow report by 8 am



I can do that for them - Its raining.


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## WinS (Jan 24, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Lame to complain in a ski forum about the snow report ...are you heading to the mountain today ?



It was a fair comment. We messed up.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2019)

thanks win. 

and no, i'm not skiing today, and yes, i can and do read weather reports. however, it's one of the ski area's jobs to post an accurate narrative report early enough in the morning for people to make the most informed decisions. once i saw them update the trail count etc but not the narrative this morning it almost felt to me like sugarbush was trying to avoid telling people that it was going to rain all day. 

in any event, thank you win for being so communicative on here. i am looking forward to this weekend and really hoping that the backside and the clippers produce enough to salvage some off-piste skiing. we wanted to do MRG on sunday but i'm thinking we should save the skiVT pass for when the getting will be gooder.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks win.
> 
> and no, i'm not skiing today, and yes, i can and do read weather reports. however, it's one of the ski area's jobs to post an accurate narrative report early enough in the morning for people to make the most informed decisions. once i saw them update the trail count etc but not the narrative this morning it almost felt to me like sugarbush was trying to avoid telling people that it was going to rain all day.
> 
> in any event, thank you win for being so communicative on here. i am looking forward to this weekend and really hoping that the backside and the clippers produce enough to salvage some off-piste skiing. we wanted to do MRG on sunday but i'm thinking we should save the skiVT pass for when the getting will be gooder.



I regularly read snow/weather reports every day. Mainly I look at Sugarbush and MRG, although I sometimes like to glance at our neighbors to the north and south to see what is going on there to try to get a better overall picture when weather gets "challenging". I noticed that Stowe seems to no longer have a narrative at all this year (unless it is just well hidden). I'm guessing that is the "Vail" model as I just went to Vail's website for comparison and don't see an actual narrative there either.

Glad to see Sugarbush still has a narrative, although I don't think it is as good as it was years ago. The snow reports back a number of years ago when Mark used to be the reporter are still some of my "reference points" for how reports should be written. I think now they tend to put a little too much of a positive spin on things at times. Then again, for anyone that follows the weather closely enough you usually will know what to expect for actual conditions without needing to read a snow report anyway!


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## rocks860 (Jan 24, 2019)

I remember being a kid and sitting and watching the trail report on tv (can’t remember what channel). I like the app much better although there’s certainly some nostalgia feeling for the old days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Julius (Jan 24, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> .. there’s certainly some nostalgia feeling for the old days.



Especially the older we get.  I felt the weather report when I took the dogs out at 6. Could've used a different wax today that's for sure.  Hoping for a quick changeover to that snow tail.


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## WinS (Jan 24, 2019)

Today was a one run and done type of day. I did find out though that my new Stio gear was  waterproof for at least a run. Tomorrow's conditions will depend totally on how this ends.  At 1:30pm the summit temps are down to 35 from the mid-40's and it looks like we will be all snow around 4:30pm for 3-4 hours.  A couple of inches will make a huge difference.  We are not starting grooming until late in order to let the trails dry out as much as possible and thus won't have the time to groom everything by tomorrow am but will have a very heavy grooming plan for Friday night.  Possibly a couple of clippers will freshen things up. I think we will turn snowmaking back on Sleeper to finish there and then on Downspout to refresh it.  After that we will likely be ready to focus on the spring trails to build more depth. Fingers crossed for next week.

If you want to see how the wind is blowing and how the snowpack is holding up look at the time laps on our two snow stacks on the webcams.  Works best from the website.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2019)

WinS said:


> If you want to see how the wind is blowing and how the snowpack is holding up look at the time laps on our two snow stacks on the webcams.  Works best from the website.



The time lapse on those web cams is a really great feature and very useful.


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## benski (Jan 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I regularly read snow/weather reports every day. Mainly I look at Sugarbush and MRG, although I sometimes like to glance at our neighbors to the north and south to see what is going on there to try to get a better overall picture when weather gets "challenging". I noticed that Stowe seems to no longer have a narrative at all this year (unless it is just well hidden). I'm guessing that is the "Vail" model as I just went to Vail's website for comparison and don't see an actual narrative there either.



I think this is a shame. The narrative makes a good venue for PSA's like the one about skinning, and the note that natural snow trails are closed to preserve snow pack during the rain in Sugarbush's trail report.


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I regularly read snow/weather reports every day. Mainly I look at Sugarbush and MRG, although I sometimes like to glance at our neighbors to the north and south to see what is going on there to try to get a better overall picture when weather gets "challenging". I noticed that Stowe seems to no longer have a narrative at all this year (unless it is just well hidden). I'm guessing that is the "Vail" model as I just went to Vail's website for comparison and don't see an actual narrative there either.



Scott Braaten used to do those write ups.  He was really good and I miss his reports on some of the other sites he visited.  Those corporate bastards over their must of gave him the gate.  Too bad, like you said, he was really good.


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## tumbler (Jan 24, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> I remember being a kid and sitting and watching the trail report on tv (can’t remember what channel). I like the app much better although there’s certainly some nostalgia feeling for the old days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Channel 44.  Doug Lewis hosting a morning show.  Classic.  Also back when the snow phone was a necessity.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Also back when the snow phone was a necessity.



My dad still calls the snow phone all the time. Considering the snow phone is usually word for word what is on the website, I don't know why my dad doesn't just look at the website from his smart phone.


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## WinS (Jan 24, 2019)

You will not see John Egan on the slopes this weekend. He is on the way to The Sundance Film Festival In Sundance for the premier of the film honoring Warren Miller. He and brother Dan are featured prominently in the film. We are so lucky to have John on the team here at Sugarbush.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 25, 2019)

Speaking of old time snow reports and snow phones without mentioning Roxy Rothafel would be a sin. 

As a kid, hearing his ski reports on the radio was a treat


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## ducky (Jan 25, 2019)

Did a couple runs this morning and it was remarkably good for a day after rain. Groomers were clean and carvable, not many lumps and really no ice.


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## Jully (Jan 25, 2019)

ducky said:


> Did a couple runs this morning and it was remarkably good for a day after rain. Groomers were clean and carvable, not many lumps and really no ice.



Ski anything ungroomed? It was all open today, right?


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## ducky (Jan 25, 2019)

Jully said:


> Ski anything ungroomed? It was all open today, right?



Just had time for a couple of groomers today on Hotshot. 

Did a snowshoe hike at 1200' this afternoon and the snow is soft and barely crusted over in the woods at my place. I was post-holing deeply with 22" snowshoes and still 12-18" at my place in Waitsfield. We have the Ole's XC trails across our field and the groomed XC trail was frozen firm on The Folsom Brook/Bundy Loop, Old #10. Off-trail was soft, almost quiet. Not sure what that says for the woods at Sugarbush but can't be all bad. I bet the moguls are a challenge.


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## Jully (Jan 25, 2019)

ducky said:


> Just had time for a couple of groomers today on Hotshot.
> 
> Did a snowshoe hike at 1200' this afternoon and the snow is soft and barely crusted over in the woods at my place. I was post-holing deeply with 22" snowshoes and still 12-18" at my place in Waitsfield. We have the Ole's XC trails across our field and the groomed XC trail was frozen firm on The Folsom Brook/Bundy Loop, Old #10. Off-trail was soft, almost quiet. Not sure what that says for the woods at Sugarbush but can't be all bad. I bet the moguls are a challenge.



Good intel! Sounds like the woods might be able to recover with just a few inches and a bunch of skier traffic. Moguls I agree are probably dead for a bit.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 25, 2019)

Jully said:


> Ski anything ungroomed? It was all open today, right?



Made a few runs in the afternoon and skied over at Castlerock.  I thought it skied decent.  Liftline was worth it.


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## Julius (Jan 25, 2019)

Ripcord/Spills was a nice surprise and had more pow coverage than expected.  Welcome rebound from yesterday.. My gloves are still wet inside.


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## Skrn (Jan 28, 2019)

I skied this weekend at Sugarbush. The groomers were good in the morning but got skied off by mid-afternoon. The natural trails were much better than expected. There were enough snow in mogul to make them skiable. High elevation trees were good. Low elevation trees have too many rocks. Will only get better with the snow this week.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2019)

Skied Lincoln peak Saturday - awful. Crowded. Icy. The gate house line was a shitshow at 10 am. RFID problems and a huge line with many chairs going up empty.

Skied Mount Ellen Sunday - excellent. Groomers skied top notch. High elevation and even lower (semi tough) woods skied awesome. Steady snow beginning at 11 am helped a lot. North ridge quad broke down. Was stuck on chair for 15 min or so. They got us all off and then closed it down. But that got me skiing top to bottom 2350 vert runs until summit went down for wind. At that point I started skiing Inverness and semi tough woods


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## Hawk (Jan 28, 2019)

Ya, the gatehouse is a beginner lift mostly.  It is always that way.  I stay clear.  Got to the hill late at 10am and the lines were manageable.  I skied about 6 castlerocks with no longer than a 10 minute wait.  Heavens gate was not bad either.  All in all not that bad all things considered. Any of the natural trails were much more edgeable than the snow making/groomed trails.  Especially on the edges. Wish they were blowing snow on something other then downspout and sleeper.  Oh well.


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2019)

Skied lincoln peak today, much better than I was expecting. Morningstar first thing was great. Ripcords was pretty scratchy but organ grinder was great. I’ve got 3 more days this week so didn’t want to kill myself today. Will likely hit up castle rock on Wednesday after the storm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WinS (Jan 28, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Skied Lincoln peak Saturday - awful. Crowded. Icy. The gate house line was a shitshow at 10 am. RFID problems and a huge line with many chairs going up empty.
> 
> Skied Mount Ellen Sunday - excellent. Groomers skied top notch. High elevation and even lower (semi tough) woods skied awesome. Steady snow beginning at 11 am helped a lot. North ridge quad broke down. Was stuck on chair for 15 min or so. They got us all off and then closed it down. But that got me skiing top to bottom 2350 vert runs until summit went down for wind. At that point I started skiing Inverness and semi tough woods



As Hawk said, that is where the most beginner and intermediate terrain is and a lot of first time visitors. The line looks worse than it is. I timed it at 10:30 and was 9 minutes, but that was the longest line. The problem with the RFID Gates is when someone has not put their card in correctly ( something else in the pocket like a piece of paper, keys or a pass from another mountain.) After learning they do not have a problem the second trip but most people are arriving for the first time between 9:30 and 10:30 am so that will always be the most congested.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2019)

WinS said:


> As Hawk said, that is where the most beginner and intermediate terrain is and a lot of first time visitors. The line looks worse than it is. I timed it at 10:30 and was 9 minutes, but that was the longest line. The problem with the RFID Gates is when someone has not put their card in correctly ( something else in the pocket like a piece of paper, keys or a pass from another mountain.) After learning they do not have a problem the second trip but most people are arriving for the first time between 9:30 and 10:30 am so that will always be the most congested.



yep, was trying to take a few laps with my beginner girlfriend before striking off on my own for the rest of the day. it was clear that a bunch of gaper types had no clue how RFID worked. but it was still frustrating to see empty chair after empty chair going up. i get that you need to police for theft of services, but with a backlog like that, and annoyed people yelling out at every empty chair leaving the station, i'd think the customer service perogative is to move the line, not check for passes. 

your lift ops manager was there and i asked him 'whats up with the empty and underloaded chairs' and his response was that people dont know how to use the rfid.

a totally separate aside - this is my girlfriends first season on skis. she had a major hip surgery 13 months ago. she's been relatively spoiled so far this season, skiing only on very nice packed powder groomers in vermont and colorado. saturday was her first exposure to ice. i've never seen someone so afraid of the pushover trail off of gate house. what a wildly dramatic hour+ of getting her top to bottom. there were tears. there were screams. there was a breakup that lasted 10 minutes. ive had good luck teaching her to ski, but woah, that was my first "leave it to the pros" moment with her. 

eventually we got her down, and i plied her with whiskey in castlerock pub til she loved me again.


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## rocks860 (Jan 28, 2019)

I had that exact experience with my ex when she was first learning to snowboard, complete breakdown screaming how much she hated me for taking her down a green at mount Ellen, it’s super rough. At least most of the people around you probably understood what was going on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tumbler (Jan 28, 2019)

Actually had a nice day Saturday on the natural and Sunday got better as the snow fell.  Low expectations were exceeded.


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Actually had a nice day Saturday on the natural and Sunday got better as the snow fell.  Low expectations were exceeded.



Yup...agreed. I only wish that snow fell a little earlier on Sunday so I could take more advantage of it. The natural terrain was surprisingly good and skiing better than the groomers (with the exception of any groomed runs that you were one of the first dozen or so people down...then they were decent).


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2019)

Will also add that on Sunday the gf’s reaction to mount Ellen was “why didn’t you take me here yesterday.” She didn’t even ski Sunday (she never does two days in a row bc her hip hurts her). She doesn’t know what she’s doing on skis, but the girl has a proper sense of vibe

Loves mad river, magic, platty, Pico, and a-basin

Hates Lincoln Peak, Stratton, Killington, copper

She recognizes that old school is cool and that bells and whistles are for the tourists

That’s rad. Now I’ve just got to get her skiing competently


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## slatham (Jan 28, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Will also add that on Sunday the gf’s reaction to mount Ellen was “why didn’t you take me here yesterday.” She didn’t even ski Sunday (she never does two days in a row bc her hip hurts her). She doesn’t know what she’s doing on skis, but the girl has a proper sense of vibe
> 
> Loves mad river, magic, platty, Pico, and a-basin
> 
> ...



She’s a keeper (possible issue with the comment on Copper, but hey nobody’s perfect)


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2019)

Nah, copper sucks. It’s stratton of the west


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Skied Lincoln peak Saturday - awful. Crowded. Icy. The gate house line was a shitshow at 10 am. RFID problems and a huge line with many chairs going up empty.
> 
> Skied Mount Ellen Sunday - excellent. Groomers skied top notch. High elevation and even lower (semi tough) woods skied awesome. Steady snow beginning at 11 am helped a lot. North ridge quad broke down. Was stuck on chair for 15 min or so. They got us all off and then closed it down. But that got me skiing top to bottom 2350 vert runs until summit went down for wind. At that point I started skiing Inverness and semi tough woods



You skied those in reverse! ME should be Saturday when LP is crowded and LP is better on Sunday when it has less people.

Actually Saturday wasn't too bad at LP relatively speaking in terms of crowds. I hit Gate House maybe around 9:15 to head up to North Lynx and didn't wait more than a minute or two. Did a couple runs up on North Lynx and then went back over to the Super Bravo side. Even at 11 the wait at SB was only a few minutes meanwhile the Valley House chair was virtually ski on.

It was a bit surprising how many people started showing up by 10 though. I thought maybe the thaw/freeze event would keep more people away.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2019)

we were with another couple taking advantage of January learn to ski deals. They needed to be at LP Saturday.

Sacrifices for socialability


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## machski (Jan 28, 2019)

cdskier said:


> It was a bit surprising how many people started showing up by 10 though. I thought maybe the thaw/freeze event would keep more people away.



That is probably because New Englanders are busy next weekend and wanted to get out on the "off" weekend (you know, Patriots and all).

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## crazy (Jan 28, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Nah, copper sucks. It’s stratton of the west



What? Have you been to Breckenridge, Keystone, Vail, Steamboat, or Beaver Creek? Copper is much more chill and less pretentious than ANY of the mountains that I just listed. It's corporate, sure, but it has character, and is less crowded than lots of the other Front Range mountains.


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## gregnye (Jan 28, 2019)

crazy said:


> What? Have you been to Breckenridge, Keystone, Vail, Steamboat, or Beaver Creek? Copper is much more chill and less pretentious than ANY of the mountains that I just listed. It's corporate, sure, but it has character, and is less crowded than lots of the other Front Range mountains.



I agree with you. Copper is definitely a better vibe than anything vail, with exception of A-basin of course. But right now on A-zone it's cool to hate on Copper. Just check out the Skiing on the cheap thread. That's ok with me. Y'all don't need to come. Just more mountain to myself.


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## mfi (Jan 29, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> I had that exact experience with my ex when she was first learning to snowboard, complete breakdown screaming how much she hated me for taking her down a green at mount Ellen, it’s super rough. At least most of the people around you probably understood what was going on
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its why when I went looking for another potential wife I kept it simple: must ski, please send pictures of skis and boots for evaluation


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## skiur (Jan 29, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yep, was trying to take a few laps with my beginner girlfriend before striking off on my own for the rest of the day. it was clear that a bunch of gaper types had no clue how RFID worked. but it was still frustrating to see empty chair after empty chair going up. i get that you need to police for theft of services, but with a backlog like that, and annoyed people yelling out at every empty chair leaving the station, i'd think the customer service perogative is to move the line, not check for passes.
> 
> your lift ops manager was there and i asked him 'whats up with the empty and underloaded chairs' and his response was that people dont know how to use the rfid.



So this was on the bunny hill?  I can see getting pissed with empty chairs going up on regular lifts but at the bunny hill its just something that is going to happen.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2019)

Not the bunny hill. High speed quad that accesses blue and green terrain and is a required lift to access two other lifts that serve expert terrain


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not the bunny hill. High speed quad that accesses blue and green terrain and is a required lift to access two other lifts that serve expert terrain



Two? I'd say one. North Lynx. There's no other lift above Gate House that services terrain at Lincoln Peak that you HAVE to take Gate House to get to.

But I agree chairs shouldn't be going up empty...although at the same time I think that was just bad luck for you as I rarely see that happening.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 29, 2019)

The forecast is saying it's going to be pretty windy on Sunday.  When it comes to wind holds at SB is Mt Ellen better than Lincoln?


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2019)

TheArchitect said:


> The forecast is saying it's going to be pretty windy on Sunday.  When it comes to wind holds at SB is Mt Ellen better than Lincoln?



Depends on the direction and speed of the wind. I've seen times where ME has many lifts on hold and LP has none and I've seen times where LP has lifts on hold yet ME is fully open.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Depends on the direction and speed of the wind. I've seen times where ME has many lifts on hold and LP has none and I've seen times where LP has lifts on hold yet ME is fully open.



It may change but right now it looks like winds from the west or southwest.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 29, 2019)

TheArchitect said:


> It may change but right now it looks like winds from the west or southwest.



You just don't know what might be affected by winds - need to look at the lift reports on Sunday AM.


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## Skrn (Jan 29, 2019)

We were at Sugarbush for the first time last weekend and loved it. Coming up this weekend again. We had good experience skiing higher elevation trees, like exterminator woods, bravinator woods, etc... All other wooded area marked on trail map seem to be at mid or lower mountain, where condition was less ideal. Are there any other unmarked wooded area at upper mountain? Many thanks.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 29, 2019)

Skrn said:


> We were at Sugarbush for the first time last weekend and loved it. Coming up this weekend again. We had good experience skiing higher elevation trees, like exterminator woods, bravinator woods, etc... All other wooded area marked on trail map seem to be at mid or lower mountain, where condition was less ideal. Are there any other unmarked wooded area at upper mountain? Many thanks.



Sounds like you skied Mt Ellen and yes there are other marked/unmarked woods options at both LP and Mt Ellen.  With new snow expected this week even mid and lower mountain options should be in play.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Two? I'd say one. North Lynx. There's no other lift above Gate House that services terrain at Lincoln Peak that you HAVE to take Gate House to get to.
> 
> But I agree chairs shouldn't be going up empty...although at the same time I think that was just bad luck for you as I rarely see that happening.



Was referring to slide brook. not a critical lift, but you do need to use gatehouse to access it


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2019)

some fun unmarked woods at mount Ellen off of elbow, and the lower part of the summit chair lift line skiers right


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> You just don't know what might be affected by winds - need to look at the lift reports on Sunday AM.



Yup...exactly. Winds on the mountain can be very tricky and strange at times. Have to just wait and see what actually happens.



KustyTheKlown said:


> some fun unmarked woods at mount Ellen off of elbow, and the lower part of the summit chair lift line skiers right



Yup, skier's right of Looking Good at ME are some nice lower angle woods higher up the mountain. From the lift you'll often see people going in there all the time including instructors taking kids in there.


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2019)

Skrn said:


> We were at Sugarbush for the first time last weekend and loved it. Coming up this weekend again. We had good experience skiing higher elevation trees, like exterminator woods, bravinator woods, etc... All other wooded area marked on trail map seem to be at mid or lower mountain, where condition was less ideal. Are there any other unmarked wooded area at upper mountain? Many thanks.



Everything should be a lot nicer this weekend. We had 3-4" the other night and hopefully 6-9" at least tonight so all wooded areas should be skiing a lot better than they did last weekend after 2" of rain on Thursday.  Tumbler Woods at ME is great fun as well.


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## Skrn (Jan 29, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some fun unmarked woods at mount Ellen off of elbow, and the lower part of the summit chair lift line skiers right



Thanks, all! Really appreciate the information. Will explore these areas this coming weekend.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2019)

that shot off of elbow can be accessed skier's right about 1/3 of the way down from the top of north ridge. its a little bushwhacky to get both in and out but you wind up in pretty open glades no one ever touches.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2019)

Just another great experience with Seth at infinite. Was having an issue with my boots and he probably spent a solid hour plus with me working on them. Another reason I love this place


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## crazy (Jan 29, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> Just another great experience with Seth at infinite. Was having an issue with my boots and he probably spent a solid hour plus with me working on them. Another reason I love this place
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Great bootfitters are so important. Glad you shared this.


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## rocks860 (Jan 29, 2019)

I would definitely recommend him, too bad I didn’t buy my boots up here


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 31, 2019)

a little cool this morning on the hill.


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## bill-now (Jan 31, 2019)

How cold is it?
Even the hot tub cover is frozen.


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## skiur (Jan 31, 2019)

surprising that lincoln base is only 8 degrees colder than my house on Long Island!


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## WinS (Jan 31, 2019)

I have my management team meeting every Thursday morning and take them for a quick two runs before making them sit inside.  Today was no exception despite -8 at the base when we took our first runs.  Layers and a face mask did the trick and the snow was quite nice. We turned the snowmaking  off on Spring Fling in early am, and the Styrofoam surface skied really nicely. Will leave the whales today and tomorrow to get skied in  and then groom out Friday night for the weekend.  We have the depth on the spring trails now to hopefully last right to Cinco De Mayo.

Today is the coldest of the week but the winds are diminishing, and the weekend forecast in looking very favorable.


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2019)

Yeah too cold for me today, taking today off and skiing my last day tomorrow


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## caribchakita (Jan 31, 2019)

WinS, here for our first time. Did the Mad Marathon in July and stopped here for a look. Decided to move our snowboarding from the NH hood, over here. Fingers crossed for a fun weekend.


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2019)

caribchakita said:


> WinS, here for our first time. Did the Mad Marathon in July and stopped here for a look. Decided to move our snowboarding from the NH hood, over here. Fingers crossed for a fun weekend.



I fully expect this weekend to be quite excellent. Counting down the hours until work is over tomorrow and I can head up!


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## WinS (Jan 31, 2019)

caribchakita said:


> WinS, here for our first time. Did the Mad Marathon in July and stopped here for a look. Decided to move our snowboarding from the NH hood, over here. Fingers crossed for a fun weekend.




Welcome. Hope you have a fun weekend.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2019)

At mount Ellen today. Very cold and sporadically windy but I made the trek over to semi tough and it was crazy good.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 1, 2019)

How are snow conditions overall?  Icy?  Frozen granular?  Packed powder?  I'm trying to decide which skis to bring this weekend.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2019)

Skied semi tough woods as well and there was an absurd amount of snow in there. The groomed stuff is packed powder to a little scratchy. The natural stuff is icy in parts and powder in some parts. I skied my 100 underfoot 181s today and was fine but that’s my all
Mountain ski. Skied the fatter ones on Wednesday 


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## blur (Feb 1, 2019)

Brovo down on a mechanical issue, anyone with any intel on this?
Hope that get it worked out before tomorrow, have a feeling the masses are showing up.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 1, 2019)

Thanks.  That helps with the decision.


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## caribchakita (Feb 1, 2019)

the average trail condition is rattle hard cord.....windy and cold..Super Bravo down..booo

Pluses: amazing staff, friendly folks on the mountain, empty trails, gorgeous views....love it..wish there was some powder...a few spots but not enough to speak of...


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 1, 2019)

caribchakita said:


> the average trail condition is rattle hard cord.....windy and cold..Super Bravo down..booo
> 
> Pluses: amazing staff, friendly folks on the mountain, empty trails, gorgeous views....love it..wish there was some powder...a few spots but not enough to speak of...



You are skiing in the wrong areas.  North Lynx skied good, castlerock trails were soft.  Rip cord was in great shape and the trees around Paradise were untouched.


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## caribchakita (Feb 1, 2019)

We boarded at N Lynx and Castlerock. Castlerock had the best powder but it was intense for me. I never boarded moguls. It was lovely though...didn't do Rip Cord


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## Julius (Feb 1, 2019)

At South today. Right side of Steins ginormous whales was consistent pow, point em and bust through.  Chalky carvable atop higher wind blown whales, really fun very surprised.  Reverse t-verse to any reachable woods (with Bravo dwn) was well worth it few times, untouched.  Upper Twist~Moonshine plenty of soft stuff to hit. I'd say tomorr anything upper mtn as not lot traffic up there with Bravo down most day.


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## rocks860 (Feb 1, 2019)

Guess I’m glad I skied mount Ellen today. Barely anyone on the mountain and all the groomers were skiing really nice. Hammerhead was a bit of an icy shit show but lower fis was pretty good. Semi tough and semi tough woods were awesome.


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## caribchakita (Feb 2, 2019)

Is Super Bravo out for today too? Heading to SB, first tracks  and ME for the 10 AM lift ...


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2019)

The app says all lifts are running today


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## teleo (Feb 2, 2019)

App video shows bravo loading.  Anyone know if the mt ellen bus is big or small today?


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2019)

I just saw 3 chartered busses heading towards Lincoln peak so mount Ellen might be a good idea 


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2019)

Good lord just looked at the webcams, glad I’m not skiing today. Huge line at valley house and huge line at gatehouse. Like 5 people at heavens gate


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> Good lord just looked at the webcams, glad I’m not skiing today. Huge line at valley house and huge line at gatehouse. Like 5 people at heavens gate
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Empty here at Ellen. And excellent.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Feb 2, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> Like 5 people at heavens gate



That'll change.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Feb 2, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Empty here at Ellen.



That'll change! [emoji16]

But in all seriousness I'll be happy for you guys if I'm wrong.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2019)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> That'll change! [emoji16]
> 
> But in all seriousness I'll be happy for you guys if I'm wrong.



Still empty! And rocks was so right about semi tough and semi tough woods. They are both really good.


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Still empty! And rocks was so right about semi tough and semi tough woods. They are both really good.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



[emoji106] glad I could be of help!


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## WinS (Feb 2, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> Good lord just looked at the webcams, glad I’m not skiing today. Huge line at valley house and huge line at gatehouse. Like 5 people at heavens gate
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Bravo went on windhold for awhile which is what caused the long line at GH and no line up top.  Everything skied really well again but the mid-mountain winds were brutal.  Interestingly, hardly any wind on Heaven's Gate.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 2, 2019)

On a happy note , it was cool to see the fighter jet formation buzz the mountain this am. We were at the top of spring Fling when they went over. Totally &#55357;&#56846;


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## smac75 (Feb 2, 2019)

WinS said:


> Bravo went on windhold for awhile which is what caused the long line at GH and no line up top.  Everything skied really well again but the mid-mountain winds were brutal.  Interestingly, hardly any wind on Heaven's Gate.



Agree - the no wind on HG was a nice surprise. I was expecting the opposite. We did a bunch of amazing runs on Paradise and Spills and rode singles line and pretty much skied on. Great day on the mountain. However, ended on a bit of a downer...stood at the bar at rumbles waiting a good long time to order a drink, finally got belly up to the bar, bar maid comes over to where I was standing and looks straight over my head to a tall dude behind me and took his drink order. I shook my head and walked out. Headed over to Green Mtn lodge for apres where it was 100% more civilized. I love how over there you can spread out and sit in the cafeteria seats behind the band and still enjoy listening to them and have easy access to the bar. The bartenders over there are great and super laid back. Also, those awesome views out those big beautiful windows. Everything apres should be!


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## TheArchitect (Feb 2, 2019)

No wind holds or crowds at Mt Ellen today. Snow was great, too. Glad I decided on going to Lincoln on Sunday


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2019)

No wind holds or crowds at HG and castlerock today.  Skied untracked Pow all day.  Conditions were excellent.  Glad I made the choice to ski there today.  ;-)


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## abc (Feb 2, 2019)

Everyone who chose to be (or ended up involuntary) on Mt Ellen are probably heading back to Lincoln Peak tomorrow morning!


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## flakeydog (Feb 2, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> On a happy note , it was cool to see the fighter jet formation buzz the mountain this am. We were at the top of spring Fling when they went over. Totally ��



Interesting you mention this. I happened to be over at smuggs today for a race and saw them pass low and slow over there as well. I live here and grew up here so I am used to seeing them fly around but they caught my attention more than usual today. I think the cold altered the sound a bit, sounded different today. Back at Sugarbush tomorrow but Smugglers skied well today and it was snowing at a good clip most of the late morning/afternoon.


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## WinS (Feb 3, 2019)

smac75 said:


> Agree - the no wind on HG was a nice surprise. I was expecting the opposite. We did a bunch of amazing runs on Paradise and Spills and rode singles line and pretty much skied on. Great day on the mountain. However, ended on a bit of a downer...stood at the bar at rumbles waiting a good long time to order a drink, finally got belly up to the bar, bar maid comes over to where I was standing and looks straight over my head to a tall dude behind me and took his drink order. I shook my head and walked out. Headed over to Green Mtn lodge for apres where it was 100% more civilized. I love how over there you can spread out and sit in the cafeteria seats behind the band and still enjoy listening to them and have easy access to the bar. The bartenders over there are great and super laid back. Also, those awesome views out those big beautiful windows. Everything apres should be!



Sorry about that. I will mention this to her. The band was good and did bring in a lot of people for apres.


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## Julius (Feb 3, 2019)

Skied North for a change Satrdy and was a fantastic day with both great conditions throughout and meeting up with the resident crew there.  No lines, good times was said. 

Aprés in the ole lodge was a welcome return to past times.  Great day for us.


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## machski (Feb 3, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> Interesting you mention this. I happened to be over at smuggs today for a race and saw them pass low and slow over there as well. I live here and grew up here so I am used to seeing them fly around but they caught my attention more than usual today. I think the cold altered the sound a bit, sounded different today. Back at Sugarbush tomorrow but Smugglers skied well today and it was snowing at a good clip most of the late morning/afternoon.


Colder air slows down sound waves so yes, deep cold changes the sound a bit 

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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm not surprised Hawk found good snow and conditions at LP while some others didn't. He clearly knows the mountain well and knows where to go. Like he said, avoiding the high traffic areas is key (more-so at LP than at ME due to the higher traffic volume LP sees).

I skied LP a bit Sunday morning and at least on mid-mountain and lower mountain areas I think ME was skiing better than LP. Due to the lower visibility up top, I only made 1 run up there so I'm sure trails like Spills, Paradise and areas of CR certainly could have been as good as the trails I skied at ME on Saturday. I just didn't get a chance to check them out.

Anyway, here's a few Ellen pics from Saturday:


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2019)

What I was trying to say is It's all really good no matter where you ski right now.  I just can't limit myself to just Mt Ellen all the time.  It's too small an area and I know it back and front as I used to ski there a lot.  I look at Sugarbush as one big resort and I ski it every weekend like that, using slide brook lift, slidebrook runs, the buses and my car to get the most out of it.  I think it is a waste to just limit myself to just one mountain or the other.  I think that people that have the Mt. Ellen only pass like to over state how good it is over there as that is the only option they have.  Don't get me wrong there are times that it is better but it's not every day.


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> What I was trying to say is It's all really good no matter where you ski right now.  I just can't limit myself to just Mt Ellen all the time.  It's too small an area and I know it back and front as I used to ski there a lot.  I look at Sugarbush as one big resort and I ski it every weekend like that, using slide brook lift, slidebrook runs, the buses and my car to get the most out of it.  I think it is a waste to just limit myself to just one mountain or the other.  I think that people that have the Mt. Ellen only pass like to over state how good it is over there as that is the only option they have.  Don't get me wrong there are times that it is better but it's not every day.



I would certainly never advocate anyone limiting themselves to only one "side" all the time either and don't mean to imply that. I usually make a decision the day of where to go. Personally I like to just stick to one side for that particular day unless I see a major reason to switch in the middle. I used to go back and forth mid-day more via the Slidebrook chair, but the past few years I've stopped doing that as much. Out of 21 days this season, only 3 of those days have been at ME. But when I do go to ME, I feel there's more than enough to keep me busy all day as long as everything is open.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 4, 2019)

i vastly prefer ME to LP. i am a weekends only skier, so that has something to do with it. but i also think the north ridge chair at mount ellen is easily the most interesting and varied terrain anywhere at sugarbush. followed by castle rock tho.


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## Skrn (Feb 4, 2019)

Skied ME on Saturday. No crowd and the condition was good on groomers and great in natural terrain. Mogul skied well and found fresh powder in semi tough woods, moose runs woods, bravo woods and exterminator woods. Had a great day.

Moved to LP on Sunday. Condition was good elsewhere but great in castle rock due to low traffic. Skied Rumble and Liftlines for the first time and they were crazy fun. Such interesting trails with characters! Snow coverage on rumble was really good. Ventured into rumble woods and found a lot of untracked powder. Had one more run on Rumble at 3pm and found the snow to be tracked out a bit more comparing to morning.

This is our 2nd weekend at Sugarbush ever. Skied in both icy and good conditions. So far we are REALLY impressed. Very interesting natural terrain with great variety. Staff is really friendly and the resort is not trying to squeeze every penny out of you. Can clearly tell this is well managed. This is just our 2nd ski season and we haven’t skied many places. But among the places we skied in New England (NE ikon resorts except Stratton plus some small resorts) sugarbush is clearly our favorite in the eastwith a wide margin. We probably will still go for multi resort pass for a few seasons to sample new places. But whenever we want to commit to one place in NE for whatever reason, we can definitely see ourselves becoming season pass holders here.


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## 1dog (Feb 5, 2019)

*Sshhhhh!*



Skrn said:


> Skied ME on Saturday. No crowd and the condition was good on groomers and great in natural terrain. Mogul skied well and found fresh powder in semi tough woods, moose runs woods, bravo woods and exterminator woods. Had a great day.
> 
> Moved to LP on Sunday. Condition was good elsewhere but great in castle rock due to low traffic. Skied Rumble and Liftlines for the first time and they were crazy fun. Such interesting trails with characters! Snow coverage on rumble was really good. Ventured into rumble woods and found a lot of untracked powder. Had one more run on Rumble at 3pm and found the snow to be tracked out a bit more comparing to morning.
> 
> This is our 2nd weekend at Sugarbush ever. Skied in both icy and good conditions. So far we are REALLY impressed. Very interesting natural terrain with great variety. Staff is really friendly and the resort is not trying to squeeze every penny out of you. Can clearly tell this is well managed. This is just our 2nd ski season and we haven’t skied many places. But among the places we skied in New England (NE ikon resorts except Stratton plus some small resorts) sugarbush is clearly our favorite in the eastwith a wide margin. We probably will still go for multi resort pass for a few seasons to sample new places. But whenever we want to commit to one place in NE for whatever reason, we can definitely see ourselves becoming season pass holders here.




Just don't tell too many friends ok?    
We are a little protective of our stash - organic growth not withstanding - Bush  has one of the highest season pass holder ratios for a reason. Glad you like it here.


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## Hawk (Feb 5, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i vastly prefer ME to LP. i am a weekends only skier, so that has something to do with it. but i also think the north ridge chair at mount ellen is easily the most interesting and varied terrain anywhere at sugarbush. followed by castle rock tho.


So you must not have skied there very much 2, 3 or 4 years ago when North ridge was down all the time.  I will agree that the terrain is good off that lift but the parts and pieces are short runs and are broken up with that flat in the middle.  Again there are times that I like it but the last few years I have taken to starting at Lincoln Peak and heading over via slide brook and skiing a few runs there, ski slide brook back and take the bus.  I'm not that nostalgic with the Mt Ellen base lodge like others on here.


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## MorningWoods (Feb 5, 2019)

Hawk said:


> So you must not have skied there very much 2, 3 or 4 years ago when North ridge was down all the time.  I will agree that the terrain is good off that lift but the parts and pieces are short runs and are broken up with that flat in the middle.  Again there are times that I like it but the last few years I have taken to starting at Lincoln Peak and heading over via slide brook and skiing a few runs there, ski slide brook back and take the bus.  I'm not that nostalgic with the Mt Ellen base lodge like others on here.



+1 on that last sentence. I think i and others would head there more if it was treated more like a destination and less like an overflow lot. I was there Friday and I felt like it was me and maybe 10 others with 5 skiing the park. If I had a nickel for every time someone said to me over the last 20 years “is it crowded maybe we should go to North”.


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## tumbler (Feb 7, 2019)

Been noticing the past few days that Northridge has been either delayed or closed for maintenance.  Any insight?


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## ducky (Feb 8, 2019)

Grim period of weather. One person yesterday said it was CSS (can't see shit) though the snow was soft and spring-like.

Had an excellent dinner last night at Hostel Tevere, aka the Mad Burger. Best burger in town, in my opinion. My wife had Falafel with Tsatziki sauce (really good) and I had a Venison Burger special with a craft blue, triple-cream cheese and pork belly. Dinners came with choice of excellent shoestring fries or a nice green salad.


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## WinS (Feb 8, 2019)

We had part of the rail that moves the chairs through the terminal needing to be replaced. It has been repaired.


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2019)

ducky said:


> Had an excellent dinner last night at Hostel Tevere, aka the Mad Burger. Best burger in town, in my opinion. My wife had Falafel with Tsatziki sauce (really good) and I had a Venison Burger special with a craft blue, triple-cream cheese and pork belly. Dinners came with choice of excellent shoestring fries or a nice green salad.



I had a regular burger with pork belly there a few weeks ago and thought it was just average (and seemed a bit on the small side). I'm not a huge fan of shoestring fries either, so that wasn't a selling point for me either.


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## tumbler (Feb 8, 2019)

I need to have a Mad burger and Worthy together to see which one I like better.  My tastings are too spread out but I liked them both.  I think I might have ordered a double at Mad burger...working on my insulating base layer...


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## Julius (Feb 8, 2019)

Worth mentioning for a buck (or two) more you can upgrade to a bigger burger at the Worthy.  Had an Elk burger at the Hostel couple wks ago, very tasty. 

Moving slow out the door to hill today.. Gotta burger on the mind now.


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2019)

Today is definitely a day I’m glad I’m a pass holder and not paying to ski. Fast and very firm for sure


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## WinS (Feb 9, 2019)

Fast and Firm is a "nice" description.  The early turns were actually quite nice especially up on Birch and Sunrise which were both groomed last.  But the hill got very sugary and hard and icy in spots as the day progressed. Winds stayed strong all day.  A second night of grooming will help especially with the winds diminishing over night.  We did plan to winch Upper Organgrinder tonight and do most of the other trails we groomed last night. Unfortunately, our winch is down so we will have to do another night.  We will do Stein's in the next couple of days in anticipation of some fresh snow on top of the courdoroy. It will take two full shifts to mow it down and make it nice.  Let's keep our fingers crossed for Tuesday and Wednesday and later in the week. We have the base. A  foot of new snow would bring the conditions back to where they were a week ago.


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2019)

I was actually a bit surprised to see how much snow was lost at lower elevations. Definitely more than I anticipated. That said there's still a good base and plenty of snow higher up. Just need a good 12" to get things going again.

All things considered with the weather we had, it wasn't too bad this weekend especially if you were out early before the top layer was scraped off. It reminded me of all that skiing I did in the Poconos when I was younger!


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 12, 2019)

Fingers crossed the 12-15 predicted this week will do the trick.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 12, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



ThinkSnow said:


> Fingers crossed the 12-15 predicted this week will do the trick.



Going to be fine ,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





weekend weather looks better too


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## jaybird (Feb 12, 2019)

Those are the bindings that failed McConkey..
.. and on Nice LLs no less.


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## flakeydog (Feb 13, 2019)

I shudder when I see these bindings.  Worked at a shop at the time and these came to us in droves.  450k sets recalled.  Plus the fun conversation you would have with the customer that we could not work on them.  Solidified my thinking that there was Salomon, Marker and then everything else (with Look and Tyrolia on the bottom of the pile).  Surprised to see a pair in circulation though the discoloration on the plastic is not a good sign, for any binding...


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## crazy (Feb 13, 2019)

Aren't the newer Look and Tyrolia bindings pretty good?

I would never subject my body to the old bindings posted above. The older I get, the more I value my health and safety. Paying for new bindings/boots is much, much cheaper than risking an injury due to dated equipment that, according to the posters above, has a history of failure.


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## flakeydog (Feb 13, 2019)

It's been some time since I worked in a shop.  I am sure most products today are far superior to even the best-of-breed 20-30 years ago.  Back then, we were still trying to invent a better mousetrap and there were pretty distinct differences in play on how that was done.  The evolution to more types of release scenarios (the most significant being the addition of an upward release component to a lateral-only releasing toepiece, without pre-release) while improving elasticity and retention was a technological revolution in the ski industry.  While not perfect, the binding industry's biggest issue today seems to be determining which skis they match.  I guess I still have my bias.  After torque testing thousands of bindings, it really stuck in my mind those that were spot on spec and those that were merely "in the range".


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## WinS (Feb 13, 2019)

Sorry that more of you were not here today. It was one one the best of the season in my opinion. The snow was heavy enough to bond but light enough to enjoy all day. The woods that I skied together were excellent. We did groom Stein’s and it took two shifts and did not get finished until 5am so there was only an inch or two on it, but it was sweet. Favorite runs of the day were Domino and Twist and Racer’s Edge Woods just before lunch which was untracked. Tomorrow looks like a great day with Friday still being the wild card. At this point it looks like a couple of inches of wetter snow which could change over to some rain showers later in the day at lower elevations but a chance it stays all white. The weekend forecast looks great. SB Lift has enough snow underneath so we are grooming the roads and plan to have it running tomorrow.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 13, 2019)

sweet win

re: look bindings. i dont know about bindings as old as the ones pictured above, or look's prior reputation. but the look pivots are the current standard bearer for a lightweight yet bombproof alpine ski binding. i think look was purchased by rossi (the fks by rossi are exactly the same as the pivots), so maybe that has something to do with it. but look makes highly regarded bindings in 2019. i have rossi fks on my kastles, look pivots on my dps, and marker barons on my moments. i used to have salomon guardian 16s on the kastles, but found them to be way too heavy


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## Julius (Feb 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Sorry that more of you were not here today. It was one one the best of the season in my opinion. The snow was heavy enough to bond but light enough to enjoy all day...



Couldn't agree more and that's with a great Nov/Dec and a number of other great days this Jan in the rear view.  All those natural trails that were in lock down lately rebounded beyond belief.  There were so many notable runs it seemed everywhere was a snow field as it pretty much fell/refreshed all day.  Whoa.  Total beat down but back again tomorrow.


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## Howitzer (Feb 14, 2019)

Sleeper Trail Widening Project and Snowmaking on the 'Jug Handle'

Two sections of Sleeper Trail would be widened between 20-40 feet in order to meet intermediate level standards totaling 0.40 acres. Trees would be removed, stumps pulled and final grading. Blasting not anticipated, but may be necessary in locations.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=53705


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## tumbler (Feb 14, 2019)

Interesting.  It looks like skiers left of the rock drop off heading straight into the Chute.  Unless the rock would be hammered out.  Putting snowmaking on the road will surely widen it!


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 15, 2019)

Not a fan of making any changes to Sleeper, but widening above the chute may alleviate the gaper lineup that frequently blocks the entire trail.  I would hope the intention is for some trees to remain with the widening.


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## jaybird (Feb 15, 2019)

WinS said:


> Sorry that more of you were not here today. It was one one the best of the season in my opinion. The snow was heavy enough to bond but light enough to enjoy all day. The woods that I skied together were excellent. We did groom Stein’s and it took two shifts and did not get finished until 5am so there was only an inch or two on it, but it was sweet. Favorite runs of the day were Domino and Twist and Racer’s Edge Woods just before lunch which was untracked. Tomorrow looks like a great day with Friday still being the wild card. At this point it looks like a couple of inches of wetter snow which could change over to some rain showers later in the day at lower elevations but a chance it stays all white. The weekend forecast looks great. SB Lift has enough snow underneath so we are grooming the roads and plan to have it running tomorrow.



Yes Weds was a very nice recovery. The upper lot was full kinda early .. that's always a good sign. The bonding process did seem to work everywhere except for a couple of the waterfalls mid trail on (insert trail name here). Overall the conditions are excellent. Hoping we can capitalize on the recovery effort with a bit more dense snow. That would set things up perfectly for the next few weeks.


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## gladerider (Feb 15, 2019)

good to hear the conditions are good. will be driving up there in a couple of hours.
can't wait.


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## WinS (Feb 15, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Not a fan of making any changes to Sleeper, but widening above the chute may alleviate the gaper lineup that frequently blocks the entire trail.  I would hope the intention is for some trees to remain with the widening.



As few a possible will be removed. This is just the jug handle entrance to avoid having to ski down the headwall which can be quite intimidating for an intermediate skier. With natural snow it can not be groomed a lot.  It is too nice a trail not to have more people enjoy it.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> As few a possible will be removed.


  Glad to hear it, thanks!


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## ktrerotola (Feb 16, 2019)

Anyone have intel on Slide Brook terrain after last night’s weather? Hit Semi-Tough woods today and the unskiied snow was heavy, hard-to-turn. Made me wonder about the condition on the lower elevation Slide Brook stuff....


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 16, 2019)

Top half skied real nice.  Bottom half not so much.  With skier traffic, the more frequently skied runs should improve.  Down low the untracked snow is heavy.


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## ktrerotola (Feb 17, 2019)

shipyardcreek said:


> Top half skied real nice.  Bottom half not so much.  With skier traffic, the more frequently skied runs should improve.  Down low the untracked snow is heavy.



Thanks for the intel. Went back today. Really nice up top, but definitely got slick by the bottom. Last half of run out was like a luge track. 


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 20, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Fantastic skiing and riding not that crowded  silky soft groomers lately ,woods are pounded out 3-5 tonight should freshen it nice see you there !!my plan up hg long trail to church for warm up then castle rock poop chute etc 


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## mikec142 (Feb 21, 2019)

Skied Saturday and Sunday of the holiday weekend.  The intention was to ski both days at Sugarbush, but we were staying in Burlington and major accidents on 100 and 100B closed the roads on Saturday and we ended up at Bolton Valley.  For the most part on what should be the busiest day of the ski season, the lifts at BV were ski on.  I think that we waited 4 chairs at one point on the Timberline and Vista lifts.  As an aside, I wonder if the road closures on Saturday made SB and MRG less crowded.

Sunday we skied Lincoln Peak.  The Gate House lines were some of the longest I've ever seen there.  There was a Sugarbush employee giving out free cookies on the line.  I think that's a nice touch and probably alleviates some tension.  There were five of us in my crew, and we elected to do the singles line pretty much all day.  The singles line at Gate House was long (as expected) but it moved at a decent clip. 
The singles line at Bravo, VH, HG, and NL were short to non-existent.  I get if you have little kids or have some sort of aversion to talking to others, but the singles line really makes crowded days much better.

Even with the lines (to be expected on the busiest ski weekend of the year) I found that the mountain didn't seem crowded.  There was a run on Paradise where my crew of five were the only people on the run.  We split up at one point and my daughter and I did Castlerock run and maybe saw 2-3 other people other than ski patrol.

I would say that conditions were a little bit scratchy which was a bit of a surprise because it was all powder and packed powder at BV the day before, but my gut says that on Friday night, SB got some mixed precip whereas BV remained all snow (who knows).  Either way, there were plenty of stashes in the trees at SB and for the most part the groomers were edgeable.  Downspout being the one exception.  It was really skied off.

I would say that over the past five years, my skiing days at SB have only gone up.  And it's pretty cool to discover stuff that I hadn't experienced before.  Little things like the fact that the PB&J sandwich at Allyn's is epic.  A couple of weeks ago I did a solo trip up to SB.  While riding the Castlerock lift with a fellow solo skier, I lamented the fact that I rarely get a chance to do the off piste stuff like Slidebrook or the trees that aren't on the map because I'm often with my wife (she's not up for that stuff) or when not with her I'm solo and I don't want to do anything unfamiliar if I'm alone.  The guy (Peter) said, hey I'm gonna do the woods on skier's right off of Middle Earth, so join me.  The guy was like a skiing ninja, but I had a blast trying to keep up and now I won't be as intimidated next time.  

Can't wait to be back next weekend.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 21, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I think that we waited 4 chairs at one point on the Timberline and Vista lifts.


 Curious- was the Wilderness chair running?


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I would say that conditions were a little bit scratchy which was a bit of a surprise because it was all powder and packed powder at BV the day before, but my gut says that on Friday night, SB got some mixed precip whereas BV remained all snow (who knows).



Another factor could be skier traffic/volume. I'm sure traffic at BV is much lighter which would help preserve the surface better/longer.


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## tumbler (Feb 21, 2019)

Lower angle bumps skiing better than steeper stuff.  Lot's of scratchy between the rock hard bumps, not as scraped off on lower angle.  Would be a great time for a reset on CR and ME...


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Skied Saturday and Sunday of the holiday weekend.  The intention was to ski both days at Sugarbush, but we were staying in Burlington and major accidents on 100 and 100B closed the roads on Saturday and we ended up at Bolton Valley.  For the most part on what should be the busiest day of the ski season, the lifts at BV were ski on.  I think that we waited 4 chairs at one point on the Timberline and Vista lifts.  As an aside, I wonder if the road closures on Saturday made SB and MRG less crowded.
> 
> Sunday we skied Lincoln Peak.  The Gate House lines were some of the longest I've ever seen there.  There was a Sugarbush employee giving out free cookies on the line.  I think that's a nice touch and probably alleviates some tension.  There were five of us in my crew, and we elected to do the singles line pretty much all day.  The singles line at Gate House was long (as expected) but it moved at a decent clip.
> The singles line at Bravo, VH, HG, and NL were short to non-existent.  I get if you have little kids or have some sort of aversion to talking to others, but the singles line really makes crowded days much better.
> ...



Oh yeah, the pb&j at the gatehouse is awesome too.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2019)

Please do not groom Castlerock.  It is not supposed to be groomed.


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## gladerider (Feb 21, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I would say that conditions were a little bit scratchy which was a bit of a surprise because it was all powder and packed powder at BV the day before, but my gut says that on Friday night, SB got some mixed precip whereas BV remained all snow (who knows).  Either way, there were plenty of stashes in the trees at SB and for the most part the groomers were edgeable.  Downspout being the one exception.  It was really skied off.



i drove up to SB on Friday from NNJ. the roads were clear. the sun was out the entire way up. arrived at 530pm. went to grab a dinner at the thai restaurant on the access road. coming out of the restaurant i realized it was raining pretty hard. i knew that was the forecast but i thought we got lucky. oh well.

on saturday, my crew spent most of the time in the woods left and right of the castle rock lift line. the top half of the mountain had fluffy snow. deep snow. the bottom half had some crusts below a few inches of powder but was not that bad at all. considering the fact that we had like an hour of so of rain friday night, the damage was minimal i thought.


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## WinS (Feb 21, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Please do not groom Castlerock.  It is not supposed to be groomed.



Welcome back. This is great. We can debate a new issue. I agree that CR should be rarely groomed. However, once or maybe twice a year grooming CR, Middle Earth and/or Cotillion can really improve the experience for all. The times I have loved it is just before a 6” plus storm. Flattening icy moguls and  then have it mogul up again with fresh snow is something we think makes for a great experience. It also allows a number of our skiers  who can no longer enjoy hard moguls to get a run or two on Castlerock.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 21, 2019)

WinS said:


> Welcome back. This is great. We can debate a new issue. I agree that CR should be rarely groomed. However, once or maybe twice a year grooming CR, Middle Earth and/or Cotillion can really improve the experience for all. The times I have loved it is just before a 6” plus storm. Flattening icy moguls and  then have it mogul up again with fresh snow is something we think makes for a great experience. It also allows a number of our skiers  who can no longer enjoy hard moguls to get a run or two on Castlerock.



+1


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2019)

WinS said:


> Welcome back. This is great. We can debate a new issue. I agree that CR should be rarely groomed. However, once or maybe twice a year grooming CR, Middle Earth and/or Cotillion can really improve the experience for all. The times I have loved it is just before a 6” plus storm. Flattening icy moguls and  then have it mogul up again with fresh snow is something we think makes for a great experience. It also allows a number of our skiers  who can no longer enjoy hard moguls to get a run or two on Castlerock.



I like this strategy as well. As soon as I saw tumbler make his post this afternoon I knew it would spark some debate! :lol:

Last year when it was flattened in the spring worked out well too. Was so much fun to see it go from flat in the morning to nice spring bumps by the afternoon!


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## mikec142 (Feb 21, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Curious- was the Wilderness chair running?



Yes and the glades off of it were glorious.


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2019)

I can understand the philosophy and why it is done but I do not agree that the experience I better for everybody.  Once it is groomed every Intermediate skier on the hill goes there and the line get even bigger than usual.  Also I think that the originally formed bumps have a better shape and spacing.  Once they put a groomer on it, they form more spaced out and have no even pattern.  This has been documented.  Just go and ski Mad River so see the difference.  Not earth shattering but this is my opinion.


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## tumbler (Feb 22, 2019)

WinS said:


> Welcome back. This is great. We can debate a new issue. I agree that CR should be rarely groomed. However, once or maybe twice a year grooming CR, Middle Earth and/or Cotillion can really improve the experience for all. The times I have loved it is just before a 6” plus storm. Flattening icy moguls and  then have it mogul up again with fresh snow is something we think makes for a great experience. It also allows a number of our skiers  who can no longer enjoy hard moguls to get a run or two on Castlerock.



This was the point of my post. Rarely groom just to get rid of the huge icy bumps and reset before a strorm.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 22, 2019)

tumbler said:


> This was the point of my post. Rarely groom just to get rid of the huge icy bumps and reset before a strorm.


Agreed.  Hawk is not wrong, but imho the benefits outweigh the costs.


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## crazy (Feb 22, 2019)

WinS said:


> Welcome back. This is great. We can debate a new issue. I agree that CR should be rarely groomed. However, once or maybe twice a year grooming CR, Middle Earth and/or Cotillion can really improve the experience for all. The times I have loved it is just before a 6” plus storm. Flattening icy moguls and  then have it mogul up again with fresh snow is something we think makes for a great experience. It also allows a number of our skiers  who can no longer enjoy hard moguls to get a run or two on Castlerock.



+ 1

Good idea


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## machski (Feb 22, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I can understand the philosophy and why it is done but I do not agree that the experience I better for everybody.  Once it is groomed every Intermediate skier on the hill goes there and the line get even bigger than usual.  Also I think that the originally formed bumps have a better shape and spacing.  Once they put a groomer on it, they form more spaced out and have no even pattern.  This has been documented.  Just go and ski Mad River so see the difference.  Not earth shattering but this is my opinion.


I get the whole Panic Bump Spacing issue after a groom, but at the same time, until spring or a very moist, dense dumping, how do ice bumps get any better?  They really don't is the answer, they just sit there basically unskied (or super little traffic).  So while I get the whole great spacing, don't ruin the spacing thing, I also get it from the resort's side of things that if they can make a better overall experience for more guests, than do it.

Hawk, you just have to get your whole crew and their extended crews up to CR morning after and be the first ones to ski it.  Then you can start the setup the way you want the bumps 

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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2019)

I don' know.  I am not a fan of grooming.  I ski castlerock every weekend and there are only a handful of days that it is bad enough that I will not ski it.  There are plenty of groomers on the hill.  Remember what the sign says, "for experts only".  You shouldn't have to dumb down castlerock so that the unskilled can ski it.  it's just how I fell.  Myself and most of the people that I ski with feel the same way.  But im not going to loose sleep over it because it is not my call.  Ill just ski rumble, lift line and the woods and leave the groomers to those others.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 22, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I can understand the philosophy and why it is done but I do not agree that the experience I better for everybody.  Once it is groomed every Intermediate skier on the hill goes there and the line get even bigger than usual.  Also I think that the originally formed bumps have a better shape and spacing.  Once they put a groomer on it, they form more spaced out and have no even pattern.  This has been documented.  Just go and ski Mad River so see the difference.  Not earth shattering but this is my opinion.



I disagree.  I think the ice bumps on the top half of Castlerock run aren't formed correctly at all.


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## Newpylong (Feb 24, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don' know.  I am not a fan of grooming.  I ski castlerock every weekend and there are only a handful of days that it is bad enough that I will not ski it.  There are plenty of groomers on the hill.  Remember what the sign says, "for experts only".  You shouldn't have to dumb down castlerock so that the unskilled can ski it.  it's just how I fell.  Myself and most of the people that I ski with feel the same way.  But im not going to loose sleep over it because it is not my call.  Ill just ski rumble, lift line and the woods and leave the groomers to those others.



If the aforementioned runs are buffed prior to a storm then they are not going to be groomers for more than an hour. It is absolutely the right call sometimes if the bumps are cement and a good dump is in the forecast. The end results are better bumps and less dentures.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 24, 2019)

I want to thank everyone who decided not to ski at SB today.  The conditions(ski surface) was excellent.  There was a light snow/sleet/frz rain snizzle in the morning but turned back to a little snow/sleet mix in the early afternoon.  The conditions in the morning were surfy, then to a nice loose powder in the afternoon.  half the chairs on bravo were going up empty.  I skied Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the pick of the three was Sunday.


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2019)

We had a great weekend of skiing and the skiing was excellent all over with no lines to speak of.  I did go over to North for half the day Saturday and skied a bunch of runs.  If you skied on any North facing slopes It was a lot better than anything that faced the sun and got affected.  Skied a lot of woods and most people kept out.  That helped.
I still disagree on the whole Castlerock grooming debate.  Bumps DO NOT form better once groomed.  Fact not fiction and this coming from an ex-freestyle guy with years of experience.  Your not gong to convince me otherwise.  But in the end it is Win's mountain after all and he will do what he sees best for the majority of skiers.  I am just not the majority I guess.  All good.


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## mikec142 (Feb 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> We had a great weekend of skiing and the skiing was excellent all over with no lines to speak of.  I did go over to North for half the day Saturday and skied a bunch of runs.  If you skied on any North facing slopes It was a lot better than anything that faced the sun and got affected.  Skied a lot of woods and most people kept out.  That helped.
> I still disagree on the whole Castlerock grooming debate.  Bumps DO NOT form better once groomed.  Fact not fiction and this coming from an ex-freestyle guy with years of experience.  Your not gong to convince me otherwise.  But in the end it is Win's mountain after all and he will do what he sees best for the majority of skiers.  I am just not the majority I guess.  All good.



Hey Hawk,

Glad you had a great weekend up at SB.  I'm heading up this weekend.

Don't want to debate the grooming vs. not grooming thing.  But am curious about your thoughts on how bumps form.  Is there a natural way for bumps to form "better"?  I would think that bumps just form eventually on any slope if you don't groom.


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## drjeff (Feb 25, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Hey Hawk,
> 
> Glad you had a great weekend up at SB.  I'm heading up this weekend.
> 
> Don't want to debate the grooming vs. not grooming thing.  But am curious about your thoughts on how bumps form.  Is there a natural way for bumps to form "better"?  I would think that bumps just form eventually on any slope if you don't groom.



Often the "quality" of bump formation has way more to do with the "quality" of skiers/riders on the trail than anything else.

Snow surface and weather play some part in it, but IMHO not nearly as much as the folks who are making turns in the same basic location as the bumps are forming....


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## mikec142 (Feb 25, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Often the "quality" of bump formation has way more to do with the "quality" of skiers/riders on the trail than anything else.
> 
> Snow surface and weather play some part in it, but IMHO not nearly as much as the folks who are making turns in the same basic location as the bumps are forming....



Hey Dr Jeff,

Thanks for the response.  I was wondering about about the folks that are making turns.  I would assume that where people make turns has a major part in it.  I was curious if someone was going to say that the "qaulity" of the skier has something to do with it.  The reason I say that is that using myself as an example, I might take two runs down Ripcord...first run making tight slalom like turns and the second run making longer GS type turns.  Same quality skier, just different turning points and thus pushing the snow in different spots.

My gut feeling is that if/when Castlerock Run gets groomed, bumps will eventually form after enough skier turns, snow, weather, etc.  But I don't think that the quality or the spacing of the bumps will be any better or worse than they were before the grooming.


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2019)

Yes drjeff is right.  The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps.  The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow.  They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over.  They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter.  Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way.   I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line.  There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.


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## mikec142 (Feb 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Yes drjeff is right.  The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps.  The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow.  They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over.  They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter.  Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way.   I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line.  There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.



Hawk,

Now this makes sense to me...appreciate the response.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2019)

The most interesting thing about mogul formation is that they dont stay in place, but they actually migrate uphill.


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## Domeskier (Feb 25, 2019)

Bumps are not static things.  Rain, new snow, freeze-thaw cycles, traffic from skiers and boarders of all ability levels with a myriad of bump skiing styles mean lines more or less in constant flux.  This is true even of seeded bump lines skied-in by competition level bump skiers.  The idea that bump lines set down in November by expert skiers (particularly those hiking for fresh turns on boards that are probably 95mm+ underfoot) are necessarily going to be better than the lines that will form in mid February after a foot or more of heavily trafficked powder over a groomed base is really out there.  I hate it when resorts mow down decent bump lines just because they're too big, or too hard or too icy for the groomer set, but to lay it down as a rule that bumps are better if they are formed earlier in the season before the trail was ever groomed is a lot to swallow.


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## Domeskier (Feb 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> The most interesting thing about mogul formation is that they dont stay in place, but they actually migrate uphill.



+1 (and change as they do).


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## djd66 (Feb 25, 2019)

I think a big reason why you see such a difference in the bumps at MRG vs SB has a lot to do with snowboarders and lack of them at MRG. I have not been to SB in a few weeks, so I don’t know exactly how rough the bumps are on CR. I know in the past when they have mowed down the ice bumps (not just on CR) it has improved the skiing and the bumps are better after being groomed. I have also seen them groom Lixi and MOonshine and there was not enough new snow - the net effect was there were crappy bumps and a really boring trail. Bottom line - if they have enough snow in the forecast, I think mowing ice bumps will be an improvement.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 25, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I think a big reason why you see such a difference in the bumps at MRG vs SB has a lot to do with snowboarders and lack of them at MRG. I have not been to SB in a few weeks, so I don’t know exactly how rough the bumps are on CR. I know in the past when they have mowed down the ice bumps (not just on CR) it has improved the skiing and the bumps are better after being groomed. I have also seen them groom Lixi and MOonshine and there was not enough new snow - the net effect was there were crappy bumps and a really boring trail. Bottom line - if they have enough snow in the forecast, I think mowing ice bumps will be an improvement.



Surprised that it took this long to blame snowboarders....and not everyone at MRG is an amazing expert skier


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## Domeskier (Feb 25, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Surprised that it took this long to blame snowboarders.



Heh.  Boarders do have a much more pronounced asymmetry in their left- and right-hand turns, which can have a noticeable affect on bump formation.  Those with a natural stance (the majority) tend to make more rounded, sweeping turns when facing downhill and turning to the left and much more quick, clipped turns when turning to the right.  This can result in bumps with troughs that are alternately broad and rounded toward the left and steep and narrow toward the right.  Seems to be more of an issue in steeper bumps where there is a greater tendency to want to check your speed.


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## flakeydog (Feb 25, 2019)

Sorry but I just have to call BS on thi one. Now that snowboarding has been a “thing” for a generation now, I see a bad skier does as much ‘damage’ to a ski hill than a snowboard. I know we will probably debate this for another generation to come but come on...  

Anyway I think subtle (and not so subtle) double fall lines can cause the aforementioned phenomenon. Many of the trails at North seem to favor a skiers left side approach for bumps. Cliffs, Bravo (esp lower), Black Diamond, Encore, most of Tumbler, etc. 

Also, a big factor is snowmaking vs not.  The primary factor between MRG and Sugarbush (more so than skiers vs snowboarders).  Firm base allows for bumps spread out. Compounded by the fact that snowmaking trails attract a more ‘diverse’ selection of skiers due to the perception of better conditions on snowmaking trails, ie better coverage. Bumps almost. always better on Bravo vs Cliffs because of this. Better skiers factor in as well. Why might there be better bumps on Middle Earth vs CR Run?  70% of the skier traffic heads to CR (over more of the ability spectrum) and the ones in the know head to Middle Earth.


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## Griswold (Feb 25, 2019)

I’ve never been a huge fan of the bumps on CR.  Love skiing CR but think there are usually better lines elsewhere on the Lincoln peak side.  The Mall, Domino, upper birdland (early and late season), Morningstar, spillsville are all places I’d rather go when lookin for zipper lines with mogul skis on.  


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## Domeskier (Feb 25, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> Sorry but I just have to call BS on thi one. Now that snowboarding has been a “thing” for a generation now, I see a bad skier does as much ‘damage’ to a ski hill than a snowboard. I know we will probably debate this for another generation to come but come on....



Do you board?  There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge.  Not a knock against boarders.  The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.


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## flakeydog (Feb 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Do you board?  There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge.  Not a knock against boarders.  The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.



I do snowboard.  My preference is definitely skiing but I have ridden all types of boards over the last 25-30 years. I still (respectfully) disagree.  You can have a lot of in in a nice line of bumps on the right board or tele skis for that matter.  In fact, many of my observations hold true in the period before snowboarding was a significant part of the snow sport population.  It has more to do with understanding how to navigate bump lines, not the equipment you happen to be using.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Do you board?  There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge.  Not a knock against boarders.  The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.



most boarders don’t like bumps anyway so this is a crock a board or ski basically the same oh yea the powder is better than it’s been in a while and the mountain is empty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









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## STREETSKIER (Feb 26, 2019)

65%skis35boarders right there your theory doesn’t work not everyone is an expert so.  Who cares ,people pay for it. you sound like a snobby old  skier 


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## dustyroads (Feb 26, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Yes drjeff is right.  The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps.  The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow.  They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over.  They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter.  Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way.   I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line.  There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.



Can you really compare the moguls at Sugarbush with those at Madriver? I would think snowboarders have a major impact on the quality of bumps and how they form. Especially as they get larger.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 26, 2019)

Maybe it’s just me, but i don’t see many boarders on castlerock.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Maybe it’s just me, but i don’t see many boarders on castlerock.



I'd agree. If I had to take an educated guess based on what I've seen, I'd say only 5-10% of the traffic on CR is boarders. That may even be a high estimate. So even if they did have an impact on mogul formation (not saying they do as I've known some boarders that could zipper bumps better than most skiers), the impact would be so minimal just due to the low volume on the trails on CR.

I'd be somewhat curious what some of the MRG people think about grooming moguls and the impact it has. There are a handful of trails at MRG that only see a groomer once in a while and then rebump up (Canyon/Grand Canyon, top of Quacky). How is the quality of those bumps when they reform?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 26, 2019)

Snowboarders are the Problem. Bumps started to change shape when the ski companies started changing the shape of skis. They were copying the shapes of snowboards to make skiing more fun. This in turn changed the shape of moguls.

I was an alpine skier from 1976 - 1982. In 82 I started telemarking and raced that circuit for years and spent a lot of time at MRG. In 1994 I started snowboarding and have never looked back. Now I only ride MRG early season on hikes. When I talk to my old tele friends, they complain the bumps are no longer as good as they used to be. It's not the snowboarders, it's the skis themselves.


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## Hawk (Feb 26, 2019)

Wow, this morphed a bit.  My opinion on snow boarders is that good snow boarders can ski bumps just fine.  Also I will agree that a good majority of boarders skip the bumps.  I do not see a huge impact from snowboarders over at Castlerock.  This conversation always brings wide differing opinions.  I spend about a 1/3 of my typical ski day at Castlerock on a usual ski weekend.  I stand by what I said previously and disagree totally that grooming makes better bumps in the long run. But the mountain will do what it sees best for the whole and whatever is said here has little to no impact on their plan.  I guess I will be seeing more of my intermediate friends in the line at castlerock.  ;-)


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 26, 2019)

They will groom and the bumps will come back pretty much the same as they are now. Enjoy the GS turns while you can.
If ya can't ski 'em, then you better look at yourself, 'cause there are folks out there rocking them, as is!
On skis and boards!!!


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## 180 (Feb 26, 2019)

I have to agree with Shredmonkey,  its the new shapes of skis that have allowed many more types of skiers to tackle more types of terrain.  So have shaped skis and poor turn types creating larger more spread out bumps.


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## Domeskier (Feb 26, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> 65%skis35boarders right there your theory doesn’t work not everyone is an expert so.  Who cares ,people pay for it. you sound like a snobby old  skier



No need to get defensive.  It's just an observation.  Nothing to do with Castle Rock or Sugarbush.  My home mountain seeds a lot of bumps and I've seen it first hand.  A weird asymmetry between right and left troughs on some steep lines that made complete sense after watching some boarders ride them.  It's a lot harder to make wide curving troughs with your toe edge, since it involves turning your back to the fall-line or twisting in a very unnatural way.  It's much easier to swoop out the tail of a board when turning on your heel edge and facing downhill.  I'm not saying this happens often - conditions and traffic have to be right and the bumps have to be pretty immature and soft.  I've seen may share of boarders who can rip bumps.  And I fully agree with those in the thread who noted that shaped skis have had much more of an impact on how natural bumps have changed over the past 20-25 years than boarders.  But the idea that board traffic will create the same kind of bump lines as skier traffic when the mechanics of the two are so different - well, I'm not convinced.


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## smac75 (Feb 26, 2019)

FWIW i'm a 20+ year boarder who lives in the bumps all.day.long. Middle Earth, Lift Line and Paradise are where you'll find me 75% of the time. I admit to tearing the head off of moguls if I get into a bit of trouble - I always make a silent apology to my fellow skiers/riders  

With that said, if any of the boarders on this thread can recommend a new board for me i'm all ears! Alpine Options just called and said my board is toast and no longer tune-able. Not a surprise as I've had it 5 years or so. I'm going to stop in to Splinters Sat am and try out a couple of demos. Sounds like they have nice selection.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 26, 2019)

If you are a one board guy, get a Burton Skeleton Key. It does everything really, really well!
Travis has a 154 demo


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## smac75 (Feb 26, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> If you are a one board guy, get a Burton Skeleton Key. It does everything really, really well!
> Travis has a 154 demo



Thanks! i'll check it out Sat. Definitely a one board "gal" :smile:


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## ducky (Feb 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> No need to get defensive.  It's just an observation.  Nothing to do with Castle Rock or Sugarbush.  My home mountain seeds a lot of bumps and I've seen it first hand.  A weird asymmetry between right and left troughs on some steep lines that made complete sense after watching some boarders ride them.  It's a lot harder to make wide curving troughs with your toe edge, since it involves turning your back to the fall-line or twisting in a very unnatural way.  It's much easier to swoop out the tail of a board when turning on your heel edge and facing downhill.  I'm not saying this happens often - conditions and traffic have to be right and the bumps have to be pretty immature and soft.  I've seen may share of boarders who can rip bumps.  And I fully agree with those in the thread who noted that shaped skis have had much more of an impact on how natural bumps have changed over the past 20-25 years than boarders.  But the idea that board traffic will create the same kind of bump lines as skier traffic when the mechanics of the two are so different - well, I'm not convinced.


Good thread and discussion. Rider here, 30 years exp starting in 1989, 100 days+/yr, etc. Riding has changed the last few years in that most everyone now, due to modern board technology, rides a duck stance with similar, symmetrical angles front and (-) rear. It took me a while to change from alpine (both feet pointing forward, shoulders facing the fall line) to duck (sideways stance) but I do prefer it now and toe-turn initiation is precise and tight. In the old alpine stance days, there were definitely more different turns shapes, toe and heelside - today not so much. Additionally, I have many boards in current rotation and they all ride differently; I suspect the same for skiers, say all-mountain carvers vs powder skies vs race skis, etc. 
I was on CR Liftline today with the thread in mind and observed there was no rhythm at all to the bumps and barely a snowboard ventures there. What you do see more of at CR and MRG are tele skiers and (perhaps not at MRG) kids with no poles in the backseat. No-pole skiers are skiing their tails more than their tips so this too changes bump shape.
There are just too many types of skis and skiers, riders and boards, tele-skiers (two main types here too with knee-to-the-ski vs the more elegant upright stance), park rats, etc to make any generalizations. My 2¢.
Damn cold today but conditions are excellent and a clipper to move through tomorrow. Bump runs' leeward left sides did better with lots of blown in snow.
To smac75: Travis will get you on the right board.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2019)

ducky said:


> To smac75: Travis will get you on the right board.



I'm a skier, but I'll say just in general that Travis is a great guy. Obviously have no experience with boards themselves, but I do go to his shop for other accessories (goggles, etc). Very fair prices too. The extra lens he ordered for me a few weeks ago was actually cheaper from him than it would have been online. (I didn't even find out the price until I was paying for it as I picked it up because I knew he would be reasonable).


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## Domeskier (Feb 26, 2019)

ducky said:


> Good thread and discussion. Rider here, 30 years exp starting in 1989, 100 days+/yr, etc. Riding has changed the last few years in that most everyone now, due to modern board technology, rides a duck stance with similar, symmetrical angles front and (-) rear. It took me a while to change from alpine (both feet pointing forward, shoulders facing the fall line) to duck (sideways stance) but I do prefer it now and toe-turn initiation is precise and tight.



Interesting.  It looks like the boarders competing in slalom events and hitting those incredible angles while carving still have both feet facing downhill, but I definitely see most boarders using a duck stance these days.  I imagine that is due in no small measure to the influence park riding and the need to land/take off switch.  I still get the impression that new boarders or boarder who find themselves in over their heads tend to dig in on their heel sides when the start getting too much speed.  That would be my instinctive way of stopping, but I have no idea if that's how new boarders are taught to stop.


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## ducky (Feb 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Interesting.  It looks like the boarders competing in slalom events and hitting those incredible angles while carving still have both feet facing downhill, but I definitely see most boarders using a duck stance these days.  I imagine that is due in no small measure to the influence park riding and the need to land/take off switch.  I still get the impression that new boarders or boarder who find themselves in over their heads tend to dig in on their heel sides when the start getting too much speed.  That would be my instinctive way of stopping, but I have no idea if that's how new boarders are taught to stop.



You are correct re race boards. Different tech, hard boots, metal bindings, canting. Sweet to watch a good hard-booter carving with hands down. In the late 80s and early 90s, many boards were asym and you had to buy either regular or goofy. Ester Ledecka (CZ) won the Olympic gold medal in Snowboard GS just a few days after stunning the ski racers and winning the Super G gold medal from a high bib number start.


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## ducky (Feb 26, 2019)

Ester on skis...


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## Domeskier (Feb 26, 2019)

ducky said:


> Ester Ledecka (CZ) won the Olympic gold medal in Snowboard GS just a few days after stunning the ski racers and winning the Super G gold medal from a high bib number start.



That was awesome!


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## flakeydog (Feb 26, 2019)

Yup- if you are good at going fast downhill, the equipment is secondary. You will be proficient on anything. I say after 30 years, sh**ty skiers and sh**ty snowboarders do equal damage to bump lines and narrow approach lines in the woods (if you believe that sort of thing).  Sideways is the same in both languages to me and now that ski and snowboard lengths are almost the same you can’t really tell the difference from their tracks. 

I still say that we all had to start somewhere, we were not born experts.  Plenty of room for all of us. I welcome anyone that is willing to flail their way down just about any trail. This is why we ski. After skiing most of my life in virtually every conceivable situation, I still feel I learn something each and every day I ski. The learning and growth never stops, and as far as I can see, it never will.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 27, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



smac75 said:


> FWIW i'm a 20+ year boarder who lives in the bumps all.day.long. Middle Earth, Lift Line and Paradise are where you'll find me 75% of the time. I admit to tearing the head off of moguls if I get into a bit of trouble - I always make a silent apology to my fellow skiers/riders
> 
> With that said, if any of the boarders on this thread can recommend a new board for me i'm all ears! Alpine Options just called and said my board is toast and no longer tune-able. Not a surprise as I've had it 5 years or so. I'm going to stop in to Splinters Sat am and try out a couple of demos. Sounds like they have nice selection.



Chech out burton the family tree woman’s  line    The boards rule. Learn to carve not skid ok


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2019)

Ducky, I would have never thought you were a snowboarder.  I thought you might ever be a Tele skier.  100 plus days???  WTF.  are you retired.

Also it would be interesting to see each of you ski the CR bumps to understand the style that you ski them.  There are so many people that say they ski bumps and do that Egan-esque style doing wider turns and airing out over some of the bumps.  To put this into perspective, I ski them with classic freestyle form meaning knees together with very short turns, hitting the sides of the bumps and staying out of the deep troughs.  I keep a very straight line.


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 27, 2019)

Nice to see skiers and boarders having a civil and respectful conversation! 

There is hope for this world after all.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Ducky, I would have never thought you were a snowboarder.  I thought you might ever be a Tele skier.  100 plus days???  WTF.  are you retired.
> 
> Also it would be interesting to see each of you ski the CR bumps to understand the style that you ski them.  There are so many people that say they ski bumps and do that Egan-esque style doing wider turns and airing out over some of the bumps.  To put this into perspective, I ski them with classic freestyle form meaning knees together with very short turns, hitting the sides of the bumps and staying out of the deep troughs.  I keep a very straight line.




Style?  I massacre those things with my clumsy fat boards.


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Also it would be interesting to see each of you ski the CR bumps to understand the style that you ski them.  There are so many people that say they ski bumps and do that Egan-esque style doing wider turns and airing out over some of the bumps.  To put this into perspective, I ski them with classic freestyle form meaning knees together with very short turns, hitting the sides of the bumps and staying out of the deep troughs.  I keep a very straight line.



The popularity of that Egan-esque style you describe is another reason why natural bumps these days are rarely great.  I prefer the modern variation on the classic freestyle form that competition bump skiers use (more absorption/extension, less bashing), but the differences are relatively minor and the two variations co-exist just fine in the zipper line.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 27, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Really if you enjoy what and how and where you slide is what it’s all about .only thing that bothers me is out of control backseat Bobby’s I find I don’t go in the bumps much now  I follow good textures where ever they are I prefer to really carve turns and push g’s I get out a lot so I’m fussy I like perfect turns not pinball zippers  nor skidding down steeps I do love the bike trails I can slay the walls and berms been here since 1980 special mountain and town  that’s why I’m still here  I would  like to take some runs with any of you but I work weekends I do get  early runs in at Lincoln peak  before teaching  IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/c46ae1cb8059907a7a849552d5451c5f.jpg[/IMG]


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> The popularity of that Egan-esque style you describe is another reason why natural bumps these days are rarely great.  I prefer the modern variation on the classic freestyle form that competition bump skiers use (more absorption/extension, less bashing), but the differences are relatively minor and the two variations co-exist just fine in the zipper line.



The modern version is what I was describing and how I ski.


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The modern version is what I was describing and how I ski.



Got it.  Internet descriptions of what's going in zipper-line bump skiing tend to get all over the place depending on what the skier finds most helpful in their own skiing (e.g., back-pedaling metaphors or driving the hips forward, etc.) but on the slopes we're all doing pretty much the same thing.


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## drjeff (Mar 1, 2019)

Absolutely gorgeous up here today! Minimal wind, bluebird sky, comfy temps, great snow! 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## slatham (Mar 1, 2019)

Ah, Dr Jeff must have a daughter in States this weekend. GOOD LUCK!


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## tumbler (Mar 1, 2019)

slatham said:


> Ah, Dr Jeff must have a daughter in States this weekend. GOOD LUCK!



Just don't look at her in her racing suit...:razz:


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## drjeff (Mar 1, 2019)

slatham said:


> Ah, Dr Jeff must have a daughter in States this weekend. GOOD LUCK!


Yup, on the long skis today and the short skis tomorrow! 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Mar 2, 2019)

Super Bravo going down just before noon today kind of stunk!! What made it even worse was that my friend who also had a daughter racing in States this weekend and I were literally going to be the next chair to load when the liftie jumped in front of our group, spread his arms wide and said that the lift was going on mechanical hold for a sensor error on tower 17! 

Still a great day, and ripping off 10k vertical feet at Mt Ellen in less than 90 minutes this morning between 8:45 and just before 10:15 was awesome! 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Still a great day, and ripping off 10k vertical feet at Mt Ellen in less than 90 minutes this morning between 8:45 and just before 10:15 was awesome!
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


 
That’s how I loved to ski ME!



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 3, 2019)

Had some runs with ducky In da wood man those snowboards can turn through those trees 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








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## ducky (Mar 3, 2019)

Greys on trays.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Super Bravo going down just before noon today kind of stunk!! What made it even worse was that my friend who also had a daughter racing in States this weekend and I were literally going to be the next chair to load when the liftie jumped in front of our group, spread his arms wide and said that the lift was going on mechanical hold for a sensor error on tower 17!



I wasn't surprised when it went on hold. For the past couple runs before it went on hold I had heard a noise coming from tower 17 (sounded like a bearing going to me...but what do I know). They must have closed it not long after I got on for the last run I took on it before lunch. I saw mechanics up on 17 when I got to the top, and by the time I got back down it was closed and fully unloaded.


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## WinS (Mar 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I wasn't surprised when it went on hold. For the past couple runs before it went on hold I had heard a noise coming from tower 17 (sounded like a bearing going to me...but what do I know). They must have closed it not long after I got on for the last run I took on it before lunch. I saw mechanics up on 17 when I got to the top, and by the time I got back down it was closed and fully unloaded.



It is always a bummer when something like this happens on a busy day, but we have a great lift team and they got it back up. Having our new Valley House Quad and located where it is has made a huge difference. Remember when the double was up behind the VH Lodge?


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is always a bummer when something like this happens on a busy day, but we have a great lift team and they got it back up. Having our new Valley House Quad and located where it is has made a huge difference. Remember when the double was up behind the VH Lodge?



I sure do. Having to hike up above the VH Lodge to get to the double if SB closed was such a pain! No doubt the new VHQ is a huge improvement. 

I think SB was back up in about 90 minutes on Saturday. Timing wise happening right around lunch time was probably not a bad thing either.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2019)

great day at mount ellen yesterday. some really nice snow in the woods, particularly brambles woods, right near where the race fence started. totally untracked boot deep. so nice. bravo woods and exterminator woods skied well. way back woods skied well. groomers skied great with the ~1 inch of fresh. 

had a really nice day at north skiing with friends.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is always a bummer when something like this happens on a busy day, but we have a great lift team and they got it back up. Having our new Valley House Quad and located where it is has made a huge difference. Remember when the double was up behind the VH Lodge?



no one talks about things when they go right, but the VHQ might be the best thing you've done at SB.


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2019)

You know I never realize that the Bravo went down.  I was either at HG, Castlerock or skiing slide brook all day.  No crowds to speak of and the snow was great.  I also really enjoyed the 90's set from the Grift on Friday night.  That was a fun weekend.


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2019)

Too funny.  I think we have skied together Ducky and know the same people.


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## Bumpsis (Mar 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> You know I never realize that the Bravo went down.  I was either at HG, Castlerock or skiing slide brook all day.  No crowds to speak of and the snow was great.  I also really enjoyed the 90's set from the Grift on Friday night.  That was a fun weekend.


I was there on Friday as well and was not affected by S. Bravo's issue - it did stop for probably 5-10 minutes when we were on it, but I didn't think much of it.
 I'm of slightly different opinion on the snow conditions.

 It was less than optimal on a lot of trails. By my reckoning, it was actually pretty icy just about everywhere I went on SB main. I did not venture into Slide brook or Sugarbush North. From Lincoln peak, - ice city.Ripcord up on the top - I just had to side slip a lot of my turns and check my speed on "snow islands". Lower Ripcord had a nice, short sequence of moguls. But that's about it.
Judging by a couple of mogul runs under the Valley House quad, which were the least skied off, I decided to not even bother with Castle Rock. From what I heard on the chair rides - it was quite icy up there as well.

The groomed blues skied fairly well and Spring Fling was where I really enjoyed some high speed turns. So, I did have fun, but really had to pick my way carefully on a lot of trails. They need a good dump or spring temps to start morphing their snow to corn.

Did you catch the two jet fighters (national guard??) buzzing Lincoln Peak?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2019)

lincoln peak is always ice city. they overgroom it, and a lot of the essential connectors (like the trails you take from super bravo to heavens gate) are a high traffic glare ice nightmare. 

i won't ski lincoln peak anymore unless its a powder day. the experience is better in every single way at mount ellen.

i saw fighter planes on saturday at stowe.


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lincoln peak is always ice city. they overgroom it, and a lot of the essential connectors (like the trails you take from super bravo to heavens gate) are a high traffic glare ice nightmare.
> 
> i won't ski lincoln peak anymore unless its a powder day. the experience is better in every single way at mount ellen.
> 
> i saw fighter planes on saturday at stowe.



The fighter planes on Saturday had one going basically between the top of North Lynx chair and Castlerock and the 2nd jet basically right over the top of the North Lynx Chair around noon, and an altitude I'm guessing not much more than 1000 feet above the ridges.  I was about 10 chairs from the top terminal of North Lynx when the fly by happened, and it was a really cool experience!  Spent the rest of the day with various songs and lines from Top Gun going through my head after that!


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2019)

Bumpsis said:


> I was there on Friday as well and was not affected by S. Bravo's issue - it did stop for probably 5-10 minutes when we were on it, but I didn't think much of it.
> I'm of slightly different opinion on the snow conditions.
> 
> It was less than optimal on a lot of trails. By my reckoning, it was actually pretty icy just about everywhere I went on SB main. I did not venture into Slide brook or Sugarbush North. From Lincoln peak, - ice city.Ripcord up on the top - I just had to side slip a lot of my turns and check my speed on "snow islands". Lower Ripcord had a nice, short sequence of moguls. But that's about it.
> ...



The Super Bravo issue was on Saturday, not Friday.

I thought Saturday at Lincoln Peak was quite good. I actually commented how I thought the groomed runs were some of the softest I had seen in quite a while. I also thought the natural trails had minimal ice and were in decent shape (actually ice isn't even the right word for what I did find as it was more just a couple hard-packed firm spots but not true ice).

Unbeknownst to me until today, my cousin was up there Thursday and Friday. He skied LP on Friday and when I was talking with him earlier today he said it was good. He mentioned two of his buddies went up Castlerock and reported that Middle Earth was in pretty good shape as well.


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## TSQURD (Mar 4, 2019)

It's funny how different perspectives are on the conditions. Yes, another storm would be nice, but we skied Lincoln Peak the past 4 days, and totally agree with Hawk. Unless one just wants to ski groomers, there is plenty of soft snow at LP, even off of Bravo. 

We were near the top on Bravo when the fighters flew by, the one seemed to be more next to us rather than above us.  At least one of the pilots skis at SB, met him on the lift last year, that was a pretty cool conversation.


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## smac75 (Mar 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> You know I never realize that the Bravo went down.  I was either at HG, Castlerock or skiing slide brook all day.  No crowds to speak of and the snow was great.  I also really enjoyed the 90's set from the Grift on Friday night.  That was a fun weekend.



Same! I had no idea Bravo was down. I was off riding trails I've never been on in the 15 years we've been going to SB - getting a little braver  - we tried the woods to the right of Spillsville (Spillsville Woods?). They were super fun! I think I can say I've graduated from Eden  

We attempted the woods at the top of Ripcord (that little chute behind the lift) but I think we messed up because it got thick real fast so we jumped back out.  SB is like the gift that keeps on giving. 

Travis from Splinters set me up on two awesome demo boards - the Never Summer Aura and the GNU Ladies Choice - it was a very tough decision but I went with the GNU and can't wait to break it in this weekend.


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## TSQURD (Mar 4, 2019)

smac75 said:


> Same! I had no idea Bravo was down. I was off riding trails I've never been on in the 15 years we've been going to SB - getting a little braver  - we tried the woods to the right of Spillsville (Spillsville Woods?). They were super fun! I think I can say I've graduated from Eden
> 
> We attempted the woods at the top of Ripcord (that little chute behind the lift) but I think we messed up because it got thick real fast so we jumped back out.  SB is like the gift that keeps on giving.
> 
> Travis from Splinters set me up on two awesome demo boards - the Never Summer Aura and the GNU Ladies Choice - it was a very tough decision but I went with the GNU and can't wait to break it in this weekend.



I think we took a few runs together after Blazer drop off - you have one in Bob's group?


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## smac75 (Mar 4, 2019)

TSQURD said:


> I think we took a few runs together after Blazer drop off - you have one in Bob's group?



Hey there! Yep, that was me! Thanks again for the awesome couple runs together!  I heard you guys ended up over at Church Sunday! Awesome! I'll do that one day! It was great skiing with you - let's do it again!


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## Julius (Mar 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I thought Saturday at Lincoln Peak was quite good. I actually commented how I thought the groomed runs were some of the softest I had seen in quite a while. I also thought the natural trails had minimal ice and were in decent shape (actually ice isn't even the right word for what I did find as it was more just a couple hard-packed firm spots but not true ice)...



With closing in on 65 days mostly at the Bushy, I couldn't agree more with Fri/Sat conditions for comparison at South.  Both sunny bluebird for the most part and very confident setting a big ole groomer edge. Had two separate crews from neighboring resorts so with Bravo going down was an initial bummer but that got resolved in good time and all had a blast.

Regarding the fly-over, We're honored to have known a couple of these pilots for a very long time. Many more that we've known over the yrs own condos at the Bush..big representation by the Green Mountain Boys so sometimes a fly-by here is a hats off to the Bush.


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## Bumpsis (Mar 4, 2019)

Julius said:


> With closing in on 65 days mostly at the Bushy, I couldn't agree more with Fri/Sat conditions for comparison.  Both sunny bluebird for the most part and very confident setting a big ole groomer edge. Had two separate crews from neighboring resorts so with Bravo going down was an initial bummer but that got resolved in good time and all had a blast.
> 
> Regarding the fly-over, I'm honored to have known a couple of these pilots for a very long time. Many more that I've met over the yrs own condos at the Bush..big representation so sometimes a fly-by here is a hats off to the Bush.  Ya might see em fly over next Wed/Thr.. not promising, just sayin.



Cool pic - it really was amazing to see of these things scream by, seemingly just in front of me, turned sideways (wings in vertical orientation). I'm also really glad I don't have to fear it when I see one in the sky


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2019)

Bumpsis said:


> Cool pic - it really was amazing to see of these things scream by, seemingly just in front of me, turned sideways (wings in vertical orientation). I'm also really glad I don't have to fear it when I see one in the sky


I will say, that the Friday/Saturday fly overs made the girls racing in the U16 states on Inverness/Brambles feel like the World Cup racers at Killington in November!!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 5, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



KustyTheKlown said:


> lincoln peak is always ice city. they overgroom it, and a lot of the essential connectors (like the trails you take from super bravo to heavens gate) are a high traffic glare ice nightmare.
> 
> i won't ski lincoln peak anymore unless its a powder day. the experience is better in every single way at mount ellen.
> 
> ...


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2019)

I know that my assessment is a little rosy but Krusty's is the other end of the spectrum.  I will say that where I skied was absolutely fine.  I ski all trail edges and in and out of the woods.  Yes if you skied the middles of the trails, then you got ice and considering the weather history over the past 2 weeks, what would you expect.  It has nothing to do with over grooming....and you have to remember that snowmaking ended over two weeks ago so It is what it is.  

I skied good edgable snow on trail edges and north facing woods both days at Ellen and Lincoln and they were both the same.


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## ducky (Mar 5, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I skied good edgable snow on trail edges and north facing woods both days at Ellen and Lincoln and they were both the same.



And they're still there and skiing quite well all week. Key is north-facing as south-facing woods are crusty. Groomers all morning before hitting the trees today and they were excellent too.


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## prsboogie (Mar 7, 2019)

I know this has been discussed in here somewhere BUT, safest route to Bush off 89N heading from NH would be??? Inquiring minds want to know. Also not sure if anyone will be around on Friday but I could have a pair of tickets for $100 if someone needed a pair, essentially BOGO - prepurchase today is $107.10. DM if interested.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ducky (Mar 7, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I know this has been discussed in here somewhere BUT, safest route to Bush off 89N heading from NH would be??? Inquiring minds want to know.



Having done this literally hundreds of times, I now usually take Exit 4, up 12A and over the Roxbury Gap. Depends on recent freeze/thaw, mud season, whether better to ride or get off 89, etc. Can take exits 3, 4, 5, and 9 with very little difference in the end drive times, +/- maybe 10 min. Safest is probably Exit 9 and down (Rte 2 to) 100B to 100 - all paved with longer but higher speed stretch of 89. That said if 89 is slow, get off earlier. Most scenic is Exit 3 to Bethel/Rochester Mtn Rd and up Rte 100.


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## mrvpilgrim (Mar 7, 2019)

I have been making the drive from south of Boston into the valley 20 - 25 weekends a year for the last 9 years
I have tried all possible options from the south exit 3 to route 107 to 100 , Exit 4 to 12a to Roxbury gap, exit 5 to lovers lane to Roxbury gap,and exit 9 to 100b to 100 into the valley.
In my opinion they all within 15 minutes of the same drive time.
Your question is the safest route. exit 9 to 100 b stays on all paved state Roads without dealing with gaps or passing through Granville gulch. This is my go to route at night or in inclement weather


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## bumpcrasher (Mar 7, 2019)

mrvpilgrim said:


> I have been making the drive from south of Boston into the valley 20 - 25 weekends a year for the last 9 years
> I have tried all possible options from the south exit 3 to route 107 to 100 , Exit 4 to 12a to Roxbury gap, exit 5 to lovers lane to Roxbury gap,and exit 9 to 100b to 100 into the valley.
> In my opinion they all within 15 minutes of the same drive time.
> Your question is the safest route. exit 9 to 100 b stays on all paved state Roads without dealing with gaps or passing through Granville gulch. This is my go to route at night or in inclement weather



AGREED!!  I'm a dork and have timed it out.  Exit 4 and 5 are almost the same.  Exit 9 is by far the safest but yeah, costs you 15 minutes.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2019)

Yes all good responses. exit 9 is safest with wider roads, all paved and less sharp corners. Exit 4 and 5 are the quickest and as much as 10 to 15 minutes faster.  I usually do not do exit 4 because inevitably you get caught behind someone going real slow and it is a longer stretch from 89 to Roxbury.  I also like driving the gap.  It is fun and the view at the top is the best.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 7, 2019)

Do they still do valet parking on weekends at LP????


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 7, 2019)

mrvpilgrim said:


> Your question is the safest route. exit 9 to 100 b stays on all paved state Roads without dealing with gaps or passing through Granville gulch.


  Funny, and here I thought I was the only one calling it that.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 7, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Funny, and here I thought I was the only one calling it that.



gulch?  I do the same, and every time I do, I recall that its proper name is "gulf"


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> gulch?  I do the same, and every time I do, I recall that its proper name is "gulf"



I've only ever called it the Granville Gulf.



HowieT2 said:


> Do they still do valet parking on weekends at LP????



I believe I still saw signs for valet parking last weekend.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Do they still do valet parking on weekends at LP????



Yes.  In front of Claybrook.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2019)

It is actually a State Reservation.  What I didn't know is that there a protected old growth Red Spruce and Hemlock grove somewhere in there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Gulf_Reservation


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## HowieT2 (Mar 7, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Yes.  In front of Claybrook.



Thanks.


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## tumbler (Mar 7, 2019)

When the gap is too muddy or closed take exit 3 to Bethel mountain road to 100. All paved and perhaps the mellowest gap ever.


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## prsboogie (Mar 7, 2019)

Thanks for the responses - I'm assuming that tomorrow will not be too muddy in the am so I will likely to exit 4. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2019)

I do exit 3 or 9. Mostly 9 because you don't have as much state highway to potentially get stuck behind a slowpoke. The 10-15 minutes time savings on the other routes isn't worth the added wear and tear on my vehicles from those crappy roads. 

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## Los (Mar 7, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Thanks.



It’s $20. Cash only. (Just in case you never carry cash, like me).


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## ducky (Mar 8, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I do exit 3 or 9. Mostly 9 because you don't have as much state highway to potentially get stuck behind a slowpoke.



Perfectly legal in Vermont to pass on a double-yellow line. Rte 12A is easy to overtake on.


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## jaybird (Mar 8, 2019)

The potholes and speed bumps are particularly nasty last 2 weeks. This makes it quite adventurous when passing on Rt 100.
Land Rover rollover in Granville last week was pretty ugly. The guy had gone by us doing about 80. Be sensible :smash:

.. anyone doing the 5 hour drive to ski boilerplate has got way worse than the 'itch' that DHS describes .. that's a rash .. call a dermo guy !


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 8, 2019)

i drive 4 hours at a minimum, in each direction, every weekend from november to late april, except for the occasional weekend of garbage weather or family/friends obligations. it's just a very accepted part of my life. i love living in brooklyn. its where my people are, its close to my job, my family is around, the food and culture are unmatced. unless and until i can have my career and my girlfriend can have her career closer to the mountains, this is my situation and i'm ok with it.

i definitely drive 5 hours for boilerplate in november and early december. i'm less keen to do it mid-season. but early season i just want to ski as much as possible.

this weekend is smuggs>rutland hotel>magic. im leaving brooklyn at 3 AM tonight. is what it is.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2019)

Excellent (and busy) weekend at Sugarbush this past weekend. I drove up Thursday night and skied Friday-Sunday. I actually thought Lincoln Peak was skiing better than Mt Ellen. At Ellen everything seemed a bit firmer and even the woods I was in seemed a bit more tracked out. Semi-tough bumps on Saturday were getting pretty big for that trail and I guess Mtn Ops agreed as I saw it listed on the grooming scheduled for Saturday night. Quite busy even at ME on Saturday. GMX and NRX were both ski on from 8-10. At that point I headed over to Inverness for a few runs on Walts, Semi-Tough, and Semi-Tough Woods. Went back over to NRX around 11:30 and the line was to the end of the gates (still only about a 5 minute wait...but pretty crowded by ME standards). Decided to take a run down Lower FIS to escape the crowds. Seems a lot of others had that same idea too as I've never seen so many people on that trail (and I heard numerous other people on the trail saying the same thing whenever I stopped).

On Friday I skied Paradise for the first time in several weeks. Did the top entrance flatten itself out naturally or was it "helped" at some point? I couldn't believe how flat and bump-less it was. That's such a fun and beautiful trail when conditions are good.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 11, 2019)

100% sunshine and a great day at Mt Ellen on Saturday.   It was a treat to ski a groomed Semi-Tough on Sunday.  Skied at Lincoln Peak this morning with 2-4" + of new snow after Heavens Gate and North Lynx were on wind hold Sunday.  Ripcord was the ROTD with a few creamy inches of fresh snow and everything off North Lyx was fun.


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## jaybird (Mar 11, 2019)

Yikes .. those lines looked long on the webcam all day Saturday ..

Thanks for today's intel. 
Planning to leverage that Tues and Weds 
Hoping the March Lion decides to make a visit ..


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## TSQURD (Mar 11, 2019)

Win - Your team has done a nice job of eliminating the sea of skis left in front of Valley House & ME lodges.  Thanks!


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## Julius (Mar 11, 2019)

TSQURD said:


> Win - Your team has done a nice job of eliminating the sea of skis left in front of Valley House & ME lodges.  Thanks!



I'll second that.. Thanked the staff for going around and picking up all the skis at VH and placing them in their proper place over the wknd as its been a cluster fart coming outta the mall/coffee run and to have to jimmy up around/through that mess. 

Today (Monday) was a nice refresh with at least 3-4 inches.   Many lifts were on wind hold for good reason but the lower woods filled in nicely.  Snowed all day.


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2019)

cdskier said:


> On Friday I skied Paradise for the first time in several weeks. Did the top entrance flatten itself out naturally or was it "helped" at some point? I couldn't believe how flat and bump-less it was. That's such a fun and beautiful trail when conditions are good.



I skied Paradise on 3/3 and the top entrance was groomed.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I skied Paradise on 3/3 and the top entrance was groomed.


On three separate occasions this weekend I ran into intermediate skiers walking back up paradise saying that they did not know how bad the section below was and declined to ski it.  The bumps at the top are there for a reason in my opinion.  Oh well.
Also, I still do not understand why people get so ramped up about the skis in front of the lodge(Valley House).  I skied past there at probably 100 times this year and never had an issue with navigating.  I can't get worked up about that.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> On three separate occasions this weekend I ran into intermediate skiers walking back up paradise saying that they did not know how bad the section below was and declined to ski it.  The bumps at the top are there for a reason in my opinion.  Oh well.



I agree. That's why I was surprised to see it flattened. At the very least they should put a caution/expert's only warning sign up now if there wasn't one (can't remember whether one was there or not).

I do find it funny that people considered the section below "bad". It was in great shape. Why do intermediates decide to go down a double-diamond trail without knowing what it is like? You can even see the bumps on Paradise from various points on the HG lift.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2019)

Nothing surprises me anymore CD.  We saw a group of people in slidebrook snow plowing down Pinball alley.  They asked if that was the way to Mt Ellen???   OMG.  I can't make this sh*t up.


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## slatham (Mar 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> They asked if that was the way to Mt Ellen???



Well technically it is, but they would need snowshoes or alpine gear cause it ain't all downhill!


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Nothing surprises me anymore CD.  We saw a group of people in slidebrook snow plowing down Pinball alley.  They asked if that was the way to Mt Ellen???   OMG.  I can't make this sh*t up.



Simply amazing. I don't remember seeing as many of these crazy things in the past. Are we seeing a change in the clientele at SB recently?



slatham said:


> Well technically it is, but they would need snowshoes or alpine gear cause it ain't all downhill!



Hah! Good point!


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## skiur (Mar 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Simply amazing. I don't remember seeing as many of these crazy things in the past. Are we seeing a change in the clientele at SB recently?
> 
> 
> 
> Hah! Good point!



Not a change in clientele, just a change in common sense!


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2019)

skiur said:


> Not a change in clientele, just a change in common sense!



I will say this...I've run into quite a few people this year that have said "this is my first time to SB" that are visiting now mainly due to it being on their Ikon pass.


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## TSQURD (Mar 12, 2019)

IDK about ramped up, but it had gotten to the point where, on occasion, the skis were blocking the run out from the Mall/Coffee Run. IMO, its a much better experience with out the skis all over the ground.

Didn't see anyone walking up Paradise, but saw several groups that were clearly over-terrained trying to get down. There's a lot of people that "ski" Ripcord in a power wedge so probably think why not try Paradise if it's groomed.  Then again, earlier this year, when the top was bumped up pretty good, I saw parents trying to get their little guy down Paradise. The parents seemed very capable of skiing Paradise, the little guy not so much. Dad tried to carry the little guy down, took a good fall with the kid on his back.  A ski patroller witnessed and called for a sled to get the little guy down. Point being, people sometimes just make bad decisions, even if they should know better.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2019)

TSQURD said:


> IDK about ramped up, but it had gotten to the point where, on occasion, the skis were blocking the run out from the Mall/Coffee Run. IMO, its a much better experience with out the skis all over the ground.
> 
> Didn't see anyone walking up Paradise, but saw several groups that were clearly over-terrained trying to get down. There's a lot of people that "ski" Ripcord in a power wedge so probably think why not try Paradise if it's groomed.  Then again, earlier this year, when the top was bumped up pretty good, I saw parents trying to get their little guy down Paradise. The parents seemed very capable of skiing Paradise, the little guy not so much. Dad tried to carry the little guy down, took a good fall with the kid on his back.  A ski patroller witnessed and called for a sled to get the little guy down. Point being, people sometimes just make bad decisions, even if they should know better.



I just go through the maze of skis and if I knock some poles down on my way by, oh well.  There needs to be more racks if they want all the skis off the ground and have the blazer coaches make their kids pick up their skis.  No biggie to be tho. 

Agree on the IKON adding more new people to the hill but business is business.  JH did a breakdown recently responding to overcrowding complaints and said IKON added 8% more skiers.  Big Sky wrote an open letter saying the need IKON and that locals were not welcoming and selling "IKON wait for you to leave" stickers.  I wonder the the breakdown is at the Bush?  There have been some busy days for sure but have been lucky everything is open to spread out the crowd 

Everyday I ski I see people in terrain above their ability but they are all trying to ski.  Yes, there will be people making stupid decisions but you can't get better if you don't push yourself.  We were  all there at one point.  Ironically, I have heard people asking about skiing to Slide Brook to Mt Ellen, and no, you take the Slide Brook lift.  Maybe the is some confusion there.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2019)

I have been taking the singles line quite a bit down at Bravo and gatehouse to get up and out.  I usually strike up a conversation.  Believe it or not, I think the majority of people are new IKON people to the resort.  I would say the percentage of people I have rode with is greater than 60%.  I am curious on the numbers also.  I am sure they know right down to the last person based on the RFID stats.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 12, 2019)

skied saturday through monday at LP.  packed on saturday.  I was happy to see the top of paradise mowed down.  definite contrast to the top of castlerock which was more than "firm" on sunday with the winds howling.  Steins was groomed too.  conditions were just fantastic.  bluebird staurday then fresh snow sunday and monday.  Untracked run through slidebrook yesterday.
shocked at how many people were there on monday.  Heli lot was full as was the CR pub for lunch.  Had one Ikon family up on saturday from stratton and another Ikon friend on sunday/monday.  wondering how this ikon thing is working out for the mtn.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have been taking the singles line quite a bit down at Bravo and gatehouse to get up and out.  I usually strike up a conversation.  Believe it or not, I think the majority of people are new IKON people to the resort.  I would say the percentage of people I have rode with is greater than 60%.  I am curious on the numbers also.  I am sure they know right down to the last person based on the RFID stats.



If I had to guess, I'd say the ticket revenue is about the same, but everything else (lodging, f&b) is up substantially.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Everyday I ski I see people in terrain above their ability but they are all trying to ski.  Yes, there will be people making stupid decisions but you can't get better if you don't push yourself.  We were  all there at one point.  Ironically, I have heard people asking about skiing to Slide Brook to Mt Ellen, and no, you take the Slide Brook lift.  Maybe the is some confusion there.



True about needing to push yourself in order to improve. Of course you also need to be smart about it and do it progressively. 

Also interesting point about the Slide Brook confusion. Certainly a possibility for people new to the resort. I don't think some people look carefully enough at maps anymore and just go thinking they'll figure it out along the way. Looking at the trail map would show someone there's a pretty big gully between LP and ME in the Slide brook basin. I was always the type of person that would intently study trail maps before I went to a resort for the first time. I suspect I'm more of the minority in that regards.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2019)

Winding up in slide brook by accident is bizarre tho.


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## djd66 (Mar 12, 2019)

I think a lot of the Ikon pass people are peeps that may have bought a quad pack before and decided to switch over to Ikon.  I have a few friends that went this route. Personally, I have not noticed a big difference in crowds from years past.  It is at its worst from 10:30-11:45 and then things open up.  As far as the Ikon - I wish they had an option where you could Pick your home resort and you get unlimited there and 5 days at all the others.

As far as people being over challenged on certain trails - if they paid full price for a ticket and that is what they want to do - good luck, it does not bother me one bit.  I guess the only way to know if it is a problem is to look at Ski Patrol numbers.  Have they had to pull more people out  of places like slidebrook?

Skis on the ground outside the lodge?  Doesn't bother me,... I have actually been guilty it when there is no place to put your skis.  I say this is more of an issue with not enough rack space - why not build 2X more racks - they are pretty cheap to make.  

One issue I do have while we are all bitching - there are not enough chairs in the valley house (or tables for that matter)  This is a really cheap problem to fix - plastic chairs cost $10 - buy 50 of them and leave them stacked in a corner.  

No other complaints - been a great March so far!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> True about needing to push yourself in order to improve. Of course you also need to be smart about it and do it progressively.
> 
> Also interesting point about the Slide Brook confusion. Certainly a possibility for people new to the resort. I don't think some people look carefully enough at maps anymore and just go thinking they'll figure it out along the way. Looking at the trail map would show someone there's a pretty big gully between LP and ME in the Slide brook basin. I was always the type of person that would intently study trail maps before I went to a resort for the first time. I suspect I'm more of the minority in that regards.



I think most people are clueless about the terrain and what they should or should not be skiing.  In their defense, there is no uniformity to the trail ratings.  I mean, there are blacks at other mountains that would be blues at SB.  I took a family from stratton down paradise some years ago, and the Mom hiked back out.
That being said, I may have taken my nephew down steins inappropriately on saturday.  He is in his thirties and just started skiing a few years ago since his now fiancee rips.  Anyway, we did a few runs with him on snowball, spring fling and lower snowball, and he was doing really well.  Looked good and I figured steins was groomed so it would be a good confidence builder for him to do it.  He fell into one of the snow gates at the top and then took a nice tumble about a third of the way down.  John Hammond came over to see if he was ok, which was funny.  No injury and he made it down the rest of the way without incident but my wife said I'm an idiot for taking him on Steins.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 12, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Winding up in slide brook by accident is bizarre tho.



Agreed.  This is no boating accident.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 12, 2019)

djd66 said:


> I think a lot of the Ikon pass people are peeps that may have bought a quad pack before and decided to switch over to Ikon.  I have a few friends that went this route. Personally, I have not noticed a big difference in crowds from years past.  It is at its worst from 10:30-11:45 and then things open up.  As far as the Ikon - I wish they had an option where you could Pick your home resort and you get unlimited there and 5 days at all the others.
> 
> As far as people being over challenged on certain trails - if they paid full price for a ticket and that is what they want to do - good luck, it does not bother me one bit.  I guess the only way to know if it is a problem is to look at Ski Patrol numbers.  Have they had to pull more people out  of places like slidebrook?
> 
> ...



some day, they are going expand/replace the valley house and make it a legit lunch option.  so much potential there.  Giant hot tub facing spring fling would be super cool. just sayin'


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## TSQURD (Mar 12, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Winding up in slide brook by accident is bizarre tho.



People are all too eager to follow tracks into the trees - can't say I haven't done it. Found a lot of good stuff that way. One would think that if you weren't confident in your abilities on all terrain you may be a little more careful, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've been asked numerous occasions what lift is at the bottom of slidebrook, spoke with a group that though the elevator shaft was the only way down slidebrook, even helped a couple looking for the bus stop at the bridge.  At least they knew they needed to catch a bus. Had a different couple in Mt Snow jackets come up behind me on the Long Trail last week and asked "what's in here".  I told them what they were getting into, they said "oh good".  Happened to run into them later in the day, didn't sound like they enjoyed it much.  Maybe its happening more, but it isn't new this year.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I think most people are clueless about the terrain and what they should or should not be skiing.  In their defense, there is no uniformity to the trail ratings.  I mean, there are blacks at other mountains that would be blues at SB.  I took a family from stratton down paradise some years ago, and the Mom hiked back out.



Agree most people are clueless about what they should or should not be skiing. I don't know how much the lack of uniformity to trail ratings can be used as an excuse though. Anytime you are at a new resort that you're not familiar with you should try to feel out the terrain a bit and work yourself up.

Of course even within a single resort I think there's a lot of variability. The diamonds on Gate House seem to be rated relative to that pod and not the resort as a whole for example. Someone new to the resort that doesn't know better could easily think "well I did Sleeper Chutes and Waterfall no problem so let me go tackle The Mall or Middle Earth since they're all rated the same" when in reality that isn't even close to accurate.

Another thing with people being clueless is that I think a lot of people don't even bother to look at trail reports at all to see what was groomed. If you want to avoid bumps or surprises, that's kind of important if you're not familiar with an area. Back in December at one point North Lynx was open on all natural snow and ungroomed. I had just come down Birch and a father with his young son getting off Gate House stopped me to ask how the trails were. When I mentioned there was no groomed option from the top of North Lynx and everything was bumped up he was a bit surprised and questioned me a bit saying "You mean there's moguls? But I thought there were blue options up there". "Yes, but they haven't made any snow yet up there and at the moment nothing is groomed. They're skiing well as long as you realize you'll be skiing bumps." I think at that point the only groomed option on Gatehouse was the Pushover route so I directed him to trails like Lower Jester off Bravo instead to get some other groomed options.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2019)

Winding up in slide brook by accident is bizarre tho.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 13, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Winding up in slide brook by accident is bizarre tho.




this can't be said enough...


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## WinS (Mar 13, 2019)

Just remember that we were all new to Sugarbush once.  We have seen a nice increase in new visitors this year.  Some of it is  due to the Ikon and MC passes but not entirely.  It seems about 6% total visits are Ikon. Still close to 60% of out visits are passholders and the frequency of the days skied this season so far is up over the past couple of years due to the conditions I believe.


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## jaybird (Mar 13, 2019)

Good to see you out there today.
Conditions on Cotillion ridge were PrimoSuperUltra !!
Streambeds are getting audibly active.
Thanks for a very nice light groom on the secondary 'roads'.
8)


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## prsboogie (Mar 13, 2019)

WinS said:


> Just remember that we were all new to Sugarbush once.  We have seen a nice increase in new visitors this year.  Some of it is  due to the Ikon and MC passes but not entirely.  It seems about 6% total visits are Ikon. Still close to 60% of out visits are passholders and the frequency of the days skied this season so far is up over the past couple of years due to the conditions I believe.


We had our first ever visit this past Friday and it was awesome. We will be back for sure.

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## STREETSKIER (Mar 14, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Tuesday was the day no crowds 4-8” fresh no wind ,sun broke out  .   longest day so far 8-3 non stop .started at mt ellen fresh-tracks down everything then started hitting woods did shots I hadn’t done in 20 years like tumbler woods (I went in at the third pine on the right) basically went in every patch of woods gravity took me and more  ended up at south twice due to bus timing which was good  liftline  in slide brook we couldn’t pass up !!also some raw north facing deep silky if you know what I mean yesterday was ok but  had to dig deep for clean lines snowed again last night but warm up is for real  looks too be  spring skiing next  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			

















https://


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## MorningWoods (Mar 14, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> some day, they are going expand/replace the valley house and make it a legit lunch option.  so much potential there.  Giant hot tub facing spring fling would be super cool. just sayin'



Cool, I think it’s legit now. I’d rather see something happen at north or top of gatehouse. Although I really like the green mountain lounge.

In the interim can they get some freaking chairs in there? Plastic cheapos will be just fine. They only need 10-20 more. I had to stand at the garbage to eat my lunch because it was the only place to rest my tray. Eventually dug a table out of the corner buried under 55 ski bags but no chairs so had to kneel at it. 


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## djd66 (Mar 14, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Cool, I think it’s legit now. I’d rather see something happen at north or top of gatehouse. Although I really like the green mountain lounge.
> 
> In the interim can they get some freaking chairs in there? Plastic cheapos will be just fine. They only need 10-20 more. I had to stand at the garbage to eat my lunch because it was the only place to rest my tray. Eventually dug a table out of the corner buried under 55 ski bags but no chairs so had to kneel at it.
> 
> ...



+1


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 14, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Cool, I think it’s legit now. I’d rather see something happen at north or top of gatehouse. Although I really like the green mountain lounge.


  Rumor has it Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports will be breaking ground on a new building aside of the Mt. Ellen base-lodge, which will closely resemble the existing lodge in its architecture.  The new building will have an elevator to make the second floor of both buildings accessible for all & supposed to have restrooms on the second floor as well.  Current deck on Mt. Ellen base-lodge also supposed to be expanded, or so I've heard....


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 14, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Rumor has it Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports will be breaking ground on a new building aside of the Mt. Ellen base-lodge, which will closely resemble the existing lodge in its architecture.  The new building will have an elevator to make the second floor of both buildings accessible for all & supposed to have restrooms on the second floor as well.  Current deck on Mt. Ellen base-lodge also supposed to be expanded, or so I've heard....



IT'S NOT A RUMAH!!! /arnold voice

https://www.vermontadaptive.org/


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## Julius (Mar 14, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Tuesday was the day...



Tuesday was No joke, I had to take a dog out early at 2:30am that morn and was pukin so knew it'd be one fun pow day. And that's on top of it snowing Sunday and all day Monday.  We hit and stayed on CR mostly.  Yesterday (wed) was still a few alternate/untracked lines to take in woods depending where you were.  Nice pics..


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 14, 2019)

spring_mountain_high said:


> IT'S NOT A RUMAH!!! /arnold voice
> 
> https://www.vermontadaptive.org/



Floor plans:

https://www.vermontadaptive.org/year-round-adaptive-facility-sugarbush-resort/


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## WinS (Mar 14, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Floor plans:
> 
> https://www.vermontadaptive.org/year-round-adaptive-facility-sugarbush-resort/



VASS is in the midst of a $ 2million  capital campaign to build this.  They already have one anonymous matching gift of $1million so they are well on their way.  I know they will appreciate any and all gifts. They do an incredible job for their students and this addition will be wonderful for them.


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## flakeydog (Mar 14, 2019)

This is awesome. Having known some that participate in the program to and some volunteer activity in the past, they deserve every sq ft of this and more. Time to get out the checkbook and make sure this happens.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 15, 2019)

WinS said:


> VASS is in the midst of a $ 2million  capital campaign to build this.  They already have one anonymous matching gift of $1million so they are well on their way.  I know they will appreciate any and all gifts. They do an incredible job for their students and this addition will be wonderful for them.


Donations:
https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/makeadonation/index.html


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## WinS (Mar 15, 2019)

We have had a nice run but that is likely ending for a day tomorrow. Soft turns today and only very light showers.  Unfortunately, it is not cooling off until very late, so that means we will not have a first shift of grooming and letting the snow set up.  As a result, the grooming plan will be lighter than normal.  We will  groom the Gatehouse side at LP first and open that lift at 8am and North Lynx at 9am.  Bravo will open as close to 9am as grooming allows, and we will rope off the trails off of the Valley House lift until groomers are finished over there. The temps near the base are not going below 32 until the morning, so lower trails will start off soft.  Others are likely to be firm and fast.  ME will schedule to open at 8am as normal on GMX.  Saturday night we will have a heavy grooming plan and will hope for some overnight snow.  Winter is back after today through most of next week. The pick of the  day might be Castlerock -----------Pub.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 15, 2019)

WinS said:


> We have had a nice run but that is likely ending for a day tomorrow. Soft turns today and only very light showers.  Unfortunately, it is not cooling off until very late, so that means we will not have a first shift of grooming and letting the snow set up.  As a result, the grooming plan will be lighter than normal.  We will  groom the Gatehouse side at LP first and open that lift at 8am and North Lynx at 9am.  Bravo will open as close to 9am as grooming allows, and we will rope off the trails off of the Valley House lift until groomers are finished over there. The temps near the base are not going below 32 until the morning, so lower trails will start off soft.  Others are likely to be firm and fast.  ME will schedule to open at 8am as normal on GMX.  Saturday night we will have a heavy grooming plan and will hope for some overnight snow.  Winter is back after today through most of next week. The pick of the  day might be Castlerock -----------Pub.



That's about as honest a snow report as I've ever seen.  Thanks.
I got two powder days last week and am emotionally ready for a corn harvest.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2019)

Perfect timing by Mother Nature for us weekend skiers! Lol. 


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## teleo (Mar 15, 2019)

Win,  I laughed.  I cried.  But gotta give you big bonus points for honesty!

Careful on the mud out there everyone.  Skipped rox gap due to rox gap stat.  But was behind a 2wd sedan with no clearance that stopped dead on west hill by the golf course.  Fortunately I squeeked by him. In Subie I trust.

Win, Why is that section not paved?  There must be a reason.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2019)

Amazes me how many people I overheard this morning that were surprised gate house was the early lift.

Conditions on gate house weren’t too bad. We’ll see how the bravo side is once it opens and see how things progress throughout the day.


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## WinS (Mar 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Amazes me how many people I overheard this morning that were surprised gate house was the early lift.
> 
> Conditions on gate house weren’t too bad. We’ll see how the bravo side is once it opens and see how things progress throughout the day.
> 
> ...



Our Groomers did the best job possible and finished faster than we expected so Bravo got open by 9am.  They had a really tough time climbing.  Some human grooming throughout the day, 1-2" of fresh snow and the grooming should come out a lot better tonight.  I actually enjoyed Snowball, Spring Fling, Murphy's and Lower Grinder.  Going out for some more.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2019)

WinS said:


> Our Groomers did the best job possible and finished faster than we expected so Bravo got open by 9am.  They had a really tough time climbing.  Some human grooming throughout the day, 1-2" of fresh snow and the grooming should come out a lot better tonight.  I actually enjoyed Snowball, Spring Fling, Murphy's and Lower Grinder.  Going out for some more.



Thought the Gh side skied better than bravo. Bravo side getting very chunky. Hopefully some human grooming breaks it up. Overall actually a bit better than I expected today given the weather challenges.


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## tumbler (Mar 16, 2019)

Getting better with human grooming chewing up the chunkies. Did about 10 runs and called it early. Lots of people, so little space. Tomorrow should be better.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Getting better with human grooming chewing up the chunkies. Did about 10 runs and called it early. Lots of people, so little space. Tomorrow should be better.



Think I’m making this my last run. Probably around a dozen for me.  Snowing good now. Hope this keeps up. Every little bit sure will help.


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## WinS (Mar 16, 2019)

Full grooming plan tonight with two shifts. Hopefully we get a bit more snow to mix in. That will make a big difference.  Probably will not have enough time to get to Stein's, though, but will get Ripcord and Birch and Cliffs.  Will definitely we a better morning and earlier will be the best.  It is the final day of Blazers so we are opening GH at 8am for them and the  Blazer Families in place of the annual luncheon party in the VH.  Bravo and GMX as normal will be open at 8am for everyone else as will GMX. Winter is definitely back for at least the next several days and the base is still deep.  I hope many of you enjoy the final Grift party tonight and/or the Tour de Moon skin up to Walt's.


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2019)

What a difference a day makes!


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## pinnoke (Mar 17, 2019)

+1    The "character built" by persevering Saturday's demanding, firm conditions, was rewarded with a very enjoyable day, Sunday. A second groom after the most recent thaw/freeze cycle, and the inch of new natural snow combined to noticeably improve surfaces, while the sun did its best to provide a nice-looking day. Far fewer people also resulted in more relaxed runs, though you still needed to stay attentive to the hardpack, of course. Bottom line is that after the challenges presented and by Saturday's frozen surfaces after the recent warm-up and light rain, Sunday's continued cold conditions seemed much easier to handle, and enjoy. Ski the East!


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## Hawk (Mar 18, 2019)

We have friends trying to plan coming up on April Vacation week 4/15 to 4/19.  We were wondering how long Sugarbush is planning to keep midweek operations going this year.  Win would you be willing to let us know your thoughts on this?  I know that it differs from year to year.


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## tumbler (Mar 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> We have friends trying to plan coming up on April Vacation week 4/15 to 4/19.  We were wondering how long Sugarbush is planning to keep midweek operations going this year.  Win would you be willing to let us know your thoughts on this?  I know that it differs from year to year.



They are traditionally open midweek then, at least I hope that is the plan, we are planning on being there for the vacation week especially with the current snow depths. A couple years ago we were still in upper mtn woods and it snowed!


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## WinS (Mar 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> We have friends trying to plan coming up on April Vacation week 4/15 to 4/19.  We were wondering how long Sugarbush is planning to keep midweek operations going this year.  Win would you be willing to let us know your thoughts on this?  I know that it differs from year to year.



We will be open midweek at least through 4/21.


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## rocks860 (Mar 20, 2019)

How are things looking currently? I have to go to a wedding this weekend but I was thinking about making the trek up next weekend for one last trip for the season as I’m pretty busy going forward


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## tumbler (Mar 20, 2019)

The northwest winds have me a bit concerned about Saturday, not a good direction for the lifts.  Still going up and we'll take it as it comes.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 20, 2019)

tumbler said:


> The northwest winds have me a bit concerned about Saturday, not a good direction for the lifts.  Still going up and we'll take it as it comes.



Agreed.  very concerned.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 20, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Storm for sat  forecasters are calling for 6-12 “of heavy wet snow , but Sunday warms up should be fun no matter what north will be the place right  ?this week so far has been excellent sunny crisp turns, today it got corny in  the sun I went up gate house after lunch did one run then back to bravo  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			















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## WWF-VT (Mar 20, 2019)

I did the 2:00 - 4:00 PM shift at Mt Ellen today.  Sunny with the temperature around 30 degrees at the summit. A few spots were close to "spring" skiing with the sun. There is still almost 100% cover on every trail with more snow on the way.  Glad to be here through the weekend.


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## Julius (Mar 20, 2019)

Got out early, took little longer than expected for the hill to unlock in those sunny areas but by the time we hit Castlerock just after noon (upper top leg CRrun was groomed) it was nice and soft.  Look fwd to the impending snow fall.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 20, 2019)

Julius said:


> Got out early, took little longer than expected for the hill to unlock in those sunny areas but by the time we hit Castlerock just after noon (upper top leg CRrun was groomed) it was nice and soft.  Look fwd to the impending snow fall.



What about middle earth?


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## Julius (Mar 20, 2019)

Didn't hit MEarth unfortunately, day 12 consecutive on the tele's so I tend to stay with a sure thing when I find it (esp. at my age) if you know where I'm coming from..Liftline was juicy skiers left.


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## mikec142 (Mar 20, 2019)

Julius said:


> Got out early, took little longer than expected for the hill to unlock in those sunny areas but by the time we hit Castlerock just after noon (upper top leg CRrun was groomed) it was nice and soft.  Look fwd to the impending snow fall.



Oh lord!  I was just in Utah this past week (without the fam).  Trying to justify a trip to SB (and the fam definitely ain't coming).  You're killing me.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 22, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Got deep today ,in the early morning you could feel and hear the bottom by 11 it had snowed almost a foot and was quiet  pretty busy things got tracked hard but they should fill in nicely tonight  .more on the way they say !!winters last gasp ,hit some sweet lines up high today 
Little Montana was  prime 

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## WWF-VT (Mar 22, 2019)

Easily 14+ inches at Sugarbush today.  Deep and lighter snow on everything off North Lynx.


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## Julius (Mar 22, 2019)

Here's my 14" painters stick at noon (lower mtn.) in what was a sun baked grassy area yesterday. It continued to puke remainder of the day and easily picked up a few more as the stick is now below.


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## WinS (Mar 23, 2019)

Julius said:


> Here's my 14" painters stick at noon (lower mtn.) in what was a sun baked grassy area yesterday. It continued to puke remainder of the day and easily picked up a few more as the stick is now below.




It was great yesterday. Unfortunately, today’s winds look terrible with gusts up to 50, so there will likely be a lot of windshield. Bummer because the powder is deep and fluffy.


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## WinS (Mar 23, 2019)

Wind was ferocious today.  Not much luck getting ME open other than Sunny Q. Did manage to get LP open as the morning progressed with the exception of North Lynx. With ME down the it is a lot more crowded than normal but still worth waiting for.  Hopefully the wind moderates by tomorrow because there is a ton of fresh powder around.


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## rocks860 (Mar 23, 2019)

Man now I think I’m definitely going to have to make the trek up next weekend, although I hope this wet forecast isn’t accurate 


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## flakeydog (Mar 23, 2019)

Wind was whipping today. Kudos to Sugarbush for opening and keeping open the lifts we had today. I was worried on a few trips up that they would shut down again. It was crowded for sure but all things considered, a great day. Really, days like today just remind me of what lines are often like on normal days at other places. We are spoiled at Sugarbush when it comes to lines. Looking forward to basically ski-on lifts tomorrow at North. 

Just out of curiosity, were North passes accepted today given Mg Ellen was essentially closed today? My opinion is they should be, even if it means I may have longer lines.  It is just the right thing to do.


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> Wind was whipping today. Kudos to Sugarbush for opening and keeping open the lifts we had today. I was worried on a few trips up that they would shut down again. It was crowded for sure but all things considered, a great day. Really, days like today just remind me of what lines are often like on normal days at other places. We are spoiled at Sugarbush when it comes to lines. Looking forward to basically ski-on lifts tomorrow at North.



Wind was definitely crazy. I was worried some lifts would go back on hold too. So glad they had almost all lifts open at Lincoln by late morning. Definitely spent far more time in lines today than usual, but each run was a quality run for sure. Was 7th or 8th chair up HG when it opened and had an awesome untracked run down ripcord!


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## WinS (Mar 24, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> Wind was whipping today. Kudos to Sugarbush for opening and keeping open the lifts we had today. I was worried on a few trips up that they would shut down again. It was crowded for sure but all things considered, a great day. Really, days like today just remind me of what lines are often like on normal days at other places. We are spoiled at Sugarbush when it comes to lines. Looking forward to basically ski-on lifts tomorrow at North.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, were North passes accepted today given Mg Ellen was essentially closed today? My opinion is they should be, even if it means I may have longer lines.  It is just the right thing to do.



No they were not. While we have on occasion allowed that when it is not that  busy or we had a lift issue like the one we had with Northridge a few years ago, we did not  yesterday.  The Values Pass and ME college pass are sold a a large discount to the All-Mountain.  As you know, yesterday, we started with VH and CR as the only lifts and gradually got all but North Lynx open by noon.  Given the lines that were forming which were longer than normal, we decided it would not be fair to those who chose to buy an All-Mountain as a premium for the Value or ME College Pass. It is hard to say how many more would have been added but another 15-20% would have added quite a bit more volume.

Our lift mechanics tried everything they could to see if we could get more open than Sunny-Q but determined it was not safe. Interestingly we had about 1,000 scan on Sunny-Q.


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## hub8 (Mar 24, 2019)

Curious as to what's the #of scans on an average Saturday on Sunshine?

My son and I skied LP on Friday.  Kept hoping to be on maybe first 10 chairs on Inverness or Green Mountain, but the wind never died down.

We got a lot of laps in though and the wait was never more than 10 minutes for us.

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## machski (Mar 24, 2019)

Great day today, Lincoln skied nice but Mount Ellen was my pick of the day.  Woods off NorthRidge were fantastic.

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## tumbler (Mar 24, 2019)

I’d be interested to know the Ikon % this weekend. There were a lot of them with their passes out and a lot of people I didn’t recognize. Started to hear the Ikon crowding grumbling during the day and at apres.


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## machski (Mar 24, 2019)

I'm sure there were quite a few Ikons, I was one of them.  But from what I'm hearing on the news, everywhere was very busy this weekend.  Even stuff not on Epic or Ikon in New England due to the snow.

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## JDMRoma (Mar 24, 2019)

machski said:


> I'm sure there were quite a few Ikons, I was one of them.  But from what I'm hearing on the news, everywhere was very busy this weekend.  Even stuff not on Epic or Ikon in New England due to the snow.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Burke with 31+ and Cannon with over 20, typical weekend crowds.........so no not everywhere !


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## flakeydog (Mar 24, 2019)

WinS said:


> No they were not. While we have on occasion allowed that when it is not that  busy or we had a lift issue like the one we had with Northridge a few years ago, we did not  yesterday.  The Values Pass and ME college pass are sold a a large discount to the All-Mountain.  As you know, yesterday, we started with VH and CR as the only lifts and gradually got all but North Lynx open by noon.  Given the lines that were forming which were longer than normal, we decided it would not be fair to those who chose to buy an All-Mountain as a premium for the Value or ME College Pass. It is hard to say how many more would have been added but another 15-20% would have added quite a bit more volume.
> 
> Our lift mechanics tried everything they could to see if we could get more open than Sunny-Q but determined it was not safe. Interestingly we had about 1,000 scan on Sunny-Q.



Not my call but I would have let them over as a good will gesture. Would not have bothered me even as a a “premium” passholder. I get the wind holds, things were swinging pretty good all day on the lifts that were open. Also begs the question, what happens when the parking lot at north fills up?  Never seen the parking like that ever at North, crazy. The amazing part was the short lift lines after the early rush. Even the lodge is was not that crowded all things considered. Guess everyone was at the race?  All in all, an amazing weekend for late March.


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## ryfitz47 (Mar 24, 2019)

Yeah the photos and posts on r/icecoast were a lot about lift lines. Massive everywhere





machski said:


> I'm sure there were quite a few Ikons, I was one of them.  But from what I'm hearing on the news, everywhere was very busy this weekend.  Even stuff not on Epic or Ikon in New England due to the snow.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



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## machski (Mar 25, 2019)

JDMRoma said:


> Burke with 31+ and Cannon with over 20, typical weekend crowds.........so no not everywhere !


Interesting your view since it was WMUR and they were at Cannon and Cannon said it was super busy for them.  Guess it's just your typical media spin then.  Thought lines were normal for a weekend yesterday at SB.  Bit longer at South than North but not too bad.

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## JDMRoma (Mar 25, 2019)

machski said:


> Interesting your view since it was WMUR and they were at Cannon and Cannon said it was super busy for them.  Guess it's just your typical media spin then.  Thought lines were normal for a weekend yesterday at SB.  Bit longer at South than North but not too bad.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah I was at Burke Saturday and it was busy for Burke but seriously nothing longer than 10 and for Cannon Sunday I dont remember any lines anywhere on the mountain !


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## WinS (Mar 25, 2019)

machski said:


> Interesting your view since it was WMUR and they were at Cannon and Cannon said it was super busy for them.  Guess it's just your typical media spin then.  Thought lines were normal for a weekend yesterday at SB.  Bit longer at South than North but not too bad.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Saturday we had about 7000 visits. About 800 of those skied Sunny-Q at ME, the only lift open. Had we allowed Value Passholders at LP we would have added 1,000-2,000 more we estimated and would be out of parking there and crested very long lift lines and lodge crowding. These is a reason the Value Pass costs less and is limited to ME on weekends and holidays. 

Sunday had about 8,500 and there really were long lines with exception of CR and everyone was spread out. That’s what happens when all trails, the woods and all 16 lifts are open that transport over 25,000 people per hour. Ikon passholders have been running 6% of total  visits this year (perhaps up a bit this weekend) and Mountain Collective far less and down from last year as we think many bought  the Ikon instead. The largest group of skiers are our still own passholders and they came out in force on both days. 

These numbers are what we see in February but last year and this March we have seen these numbers for the first time in a long time.


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## Hawk (Mar 25, 2019)

I have no issues with Epic or Icon people at all.  What that means to me is that many more of my friends that have never come to ski here at Sugarbush now come.  It has been awesome to show them around and rip it up.  I also did not have any issues at après as usual.  If you are a regular and you tip well you get the service.  Being loyal to a bartender at the pub pays dividends.  
I never understand the philosophy of giving someone that took a specific discount to save money, the added benefits that someone paid full price for.  This comes up every year with some of the ME only people, not all thought.  These people paid far less then the full pass people so sorry but that is down side.  Why do they need a good gesture? Are they being slighted by mother nature with the wind?
Also Machski, no heads up on the Sugarbush trip?  Geeze.


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## Hawk (Mar 25, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Got deep today ,in the early morning you could feel and hear the bottom by 11 it had snowed almost a foot and was quiet  pretty busy things got tracked hard but they should fill in nicely tonight  .more on the way they say !!winters last gasp ,hit some sweet lines up high today
> Little Montana was  prime
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with your observations on Friday.  As the morning went on, things got really good.  Three days of epic skiing.  So much untracked snow to ski.  It felt like a lot of people skipped some of the best lines.

Little Montana?  Never heard of that one.  Been hearing some new names for the old classics lately.  I usually just go by what the old timers call them.  It easer that way.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

Allyns traverse was roped off seemingly closing hiking/skinning up jester when heavens gate was on wind hold.  Noticed this another time recently when hg was on wind hold.  Is this new?  What’s up with that?


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## djd66 (Mar 25, 2019)

Glad to hear business was so good for the mountain this weekend!  Just curious- why would you close the food service and even the water fountain in the Valley House Lodge?  Given how crowded GH lodge is, seems like it would make sense to keep VH open through the end of March on weekends.


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## mikec142 (Mar 25, 2019)

Super jealous of all who had a great weekend at Sugarbush.  After a trip to Utah the week before and a bunch of solo trips to SB this year, I couldn't muster the energy to do the 5.5 hour drive.  Going up woulda been fine, but coming back woulda taken it out of me.  I still have one quad pack ticket left that may go unused...hoping to get up there over the next two weekends, but having trouble seeing it given all the family commitments.  Couldn't even muster up the energy to do a day trip this weekend to Windham or Bellayre.  Hate thinking that my season may be done, but it's trending that way given the anticipated weather this coming week/weekend.

I seemed to have really timed my trips to SB well this year.  Although I didn't manage to make it for every pow day, the vast majority of the days I spent on the mountain have been in superb conditions.


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## jaybird (Mar 25, 2019)

Biggest line that I saw this season was yesterday at the GH hydration station. :grin:

Conditions yesterday (once the jitney was done with the midday exodus) were splendid.
That rock hard base is gonna hold up very well this year.

Congrats Win on the 8500. Big Time !


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## machski (Mar 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have no issues with Epic or Icon people at all.  What that means to me is that many more of my friends that have never come to ski here at Sugarbush now come.  It has been awesome to show them around and rip it up.  I also did not have any issues at après as usual.  If you are a regular and you tip well you get the service.  Being loyal to a bartender at the pub pays dividends.
> I never understand the philosophy of giving someone that took a specific discount to save money, the added benefits that someone paid full price for.  This comes up every year with some of the ME only people, not all thought.  These people paid far less then the full pass people so sorry but that is down side.  Why do they need a good gesture? Are they being slighted by mother nature with the wind?
> Also Machski, no heads up on the Sugarbush trip?  Geeze.


I thought about it, but it was a one day last minute decision.  Should have.  Next year I will hit you up for sure when I head up.

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## STREETSKIER (Mar 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I agree with your observations on Friday.  As the morning went on, things got really good.  Three days of epic skiing.  So much untracked snow to ski.  It felt like a lot of people skipped some of the best lines.
> 
> Little Montana?  Never heard of that one.  Been hearing some new names for the old classics lately.  I usually just go by what the old timers call them.  It easer that way.







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## STREETSKIER (Mar 25, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



STREETSKIER said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hawk I am an old timer. we called a section of woods hit hard by acid rain .20 years ago little Montana  it was more open the pines have grown  up but still some sweet lines through, you have probably been in I wonder what you call it?Saturday  was all time even with the crowds .had an amazing run   Down ripcord  and so many uncut tree runs Sunday I skipped mtEllen  Lincoln peak provided wind buff silk all over I left when it got sticky ,going up tues  and Wednesday for corn !! how about the vulva you know that one?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			












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## Hawk (Mar 25, 2019)

I think I might know where that is.  Not too many places look like that.  Excellent skiing all over Friday, Saturday and Sunday.


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## Hawk (Mar 25, 2019)

Is that near Cosmic Vag????


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## WinS (Mar 25, 2019)

jaybird said:


> Biggest line that I saw this season was yesterday at the GH hydration station. :grin:
> 
> Conditions yesterday (once the jitney was done with the midday exodus) were splendid.
> That rock hard base is gonna hold up very well this year.
> ...




Ha! It was a long line. Was at a meeting with all the other Vermont ski area GMs today.  Everyone had a fabulous weekend. The Northern ones had the wind on Saturday and everyone had a huge Sunday with overflowing parking lots. This is great for Vermont.


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## WinS (Mar 25, 2019)

djd66 said:


> Glad to hear business was so good for the mountain this weekend!  Just curious- why would you close the food service and even the water fountain in the Valley House Lodge?  Given how crowded GH lodge is, seems like it would make sense to keep VH open through the end of March on weekends.




Staffing is the issue. We have lost almost all the J-1’s who have returned to school. Their Visa also only allows them to work 90 days. Next year we will be looking for more and adding to our inventory of employee housing. I did notice quite a number of brown baggers using the Blazer Room which helped take some pressure off of the GH.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> Ha! It was a long line. Was at a meeting with all the other Vermont ski area GMs today.  Everyone had a fabulous weekend. The Northern ones had the wind on Saturday and everyone had a huge Sunday with overflowing parking lots. This is great for Vermont.



i had to park down between k1 and ramshead at killington, but i arrived a bit late, and they had a good chunk of the k-1 lot occupied by the beer fest break-down. parking was crowded but on mountain was a breeze. never waited more than a couple chairs. great weekend. mrg on saturday was gorgeous so i'm sure sb was skiing great.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> Staffing is the issue. We have lost almost all the J-1’s who have returned to school. Their Visa also only allows them to work 90 days. Next year we will be looking for more and adding to our inventory of employee housing. I did notice quite a number of brown baggers using the Blazer Room which helped take some pressure off of the GH.



Does the resort provide housing for those kids on the work visas?  That’s a great deal.  Too bad that visa is only 90 days.  

Fwiw-i didn’t think gatehouse lodge was crowded at all on Saturday.  Everyone must have been out skiing.  A late season storm like that is really a blessing.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Fwiw-i didn’t think gatehouse lodge was crowded at all on Saturday.  Everyone must have been out skiing.  A late season storm like that is really a blessing.



Maybe it depended on what time you went in. I didn't go in GH lodge, but my dad went in for a break mid-morning and said it was nuts.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Maybe it depended on what time you went in. I didn't go in GH lodge, but my dad went in for a break mid-morning and said it was nuts.



11:45-12:15.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> 11:45-12:15.



I want to say it was around 10 or 10:30 that he went in for a break.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I want to say it was around 10 or 10:30 that he went in for a break.


Figured out why taking 73 makes more sense for you then me.  You come up 87 right?  So taking 73 allows you to bypass Rutland on the way to/from 4.  I come up the taconic/22/7 and so I have to go through Rutland.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Figured out why taking 73 makes more sense for you then me.  You come up 87 right?  So taking 73 allows you to bypass Rutland on the way to/from 4.  I come up the taconic/22/7 and so I have to go through Rutland.



Yup...although oddly enough we actually decided to take 4 to 100 this time. VTrans webcam showed Rt 4 in Mendon clear meanwhile the radar showed possibly more precip further north so thought at the time we were going through that Mendon pass would be the better option to cross to the eastern side of the greens. No idea how Brandon gap actually was at the time, but Rt 4 and 100 all the way up to SB were in great shape when we drove through.


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## Julius (Mar 25, 2019)

All I can manage to say is; I'm gonna have a mile long smile from this last snow show for a while.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yup...although oddly enough we actually decided to take 4 to 100 this time. VTrans webcam showed Rt 4 in Mendon clear meanwhile the radar showed possibly more precip further north so thought at the time we were going through that Mendon pass would be the better option to cross to the eastern side of the greens. No idea how Brandon gap actually was at the time, but Rt 4 and 100 all the way up to SB were in great shape when we drove through.



Great shape.  I kept waiting to see the roadway snow covered and it didn’t happen even though it was snowing pretty hard from Manchester up.
btw-if you turn at the McDonald’s 4 towards the hospital then turn again at the hospital, you skip about 6 traffic lights.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

Wednesday through Friday look like ideal corn harvest days.  I’m ready for spring after this weekend.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Great shape.  I kept waiting to see the roadway snow covered and it didn’t happen even though it was snowing pretty hard from Manchester up.
> btw-if you turn at the McDonald’s 4 towards the hospital then turn again at the hospital, you skip about 6 traffic lights.



LOL. I was literally just looking at google maps a few minutes ago and figured that out as I remembered someone saying something about the "hospital shortcut" at some point.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 25, 2019)

cdskier said:


> LOL. I was literally just looking at google maps a few minutes ago and figured that out as I remembered someone saying something about the "hospital shortcut" at some point.



Theres a McDonald’s at both intersections on 4 and signs for the hospital obviously.  You literally can’t miss it.  And it saves going through that mess on 4 through Rutland.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Theres a McDonald’s at both intersections on 4 and signs for the hospital obviously.  You literally can’t miss it.  And it saves going through that mess on 4 through Rutland.



Yea, thanks. Good to know if I take that route again for some reason.


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## WinS (Mar 26, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Does the resort provide housing for those kids on the work visas?  That’s a great deal.  Too bad that visa is only 90 days.
> 
> Fwiw-i didn’t think gatehouse lodge was crowded at all on Saturday.  Everyone must have been out skiing.  A late season storm like that is really a blessing.



We now have housing for approximately 130 employees. We own some but lease several other properties. In the future the plan is to build more of our own that is walking distance to the resort. Employees do pay rent but it is very very affordable. Almost all ski areas are doing this now in order to attract employees.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 26, 2019)

WinS said:


> In the future the plan is to build more of our own that is walking distance to the resort.


  Where might this be located?


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2019)

What are we thinking about this weekend? My weather app is saying 59 degrees and wet for Saturday but I’d really like to get up there one more time on the season


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## WinS (Mar 26, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Where might this be located?



We have two locations.  Expanding the building that we currently have at the Bottom of Lot F and building where the Old Rosita's Restaurant was just downhill from the Sugar Tree Inn that we bought and converted to employee housing.


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## WinS (Mar 26, 2019)

rocks860 said:


> What are we thinking about this weekend? My weather app is saying 59 degrees and wet for Saturday but I’d really like to get up there one more time on the season
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There will be some nice soft turns.  Too far out to call but it looks like some showers possible on Saturday but not a wash out.  There are some signs that there could be some accumulating snow Sunday night as it cools down again.


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## rocks860 (Mar 26, 2019)

Well I’m gonna roll the dice and buy a ticket tonight. Worse comes to worse I can make some turns then spend some time at Lawson’s !


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## HowieT2 (Mar 26, 2019)

WinS said:


> We now have housing for approximately 130 employees. We own some but lease several other properties. In the future the plan is to build more of our own that is walking distance to the resort. Employees do pay rent but it is very very affordable. Almost all ski areas are doing this now in order to attract employees.



130 seems like a lot of housing for only seasonal employees.  Are there also full time employees residing there?  Has running a shuttle from burlington or rutland been considered.  Not an option for the snow makers and lift mechanics who work overnight, but for non essential day workers maybe?  it must be really difficult to get these employees considering the cost to attract them.
I'm comparing what I've seen/learned from going out to BC the last several years and staying in Nelson.  They've got a fairly large population of young kids from Australia working, not just at whitewater but also in town.  It seems like every waitress is a twenty something Australian.  There's a shuttle that brings the employees from the city to the mountain (where there's no lodging whatsoever).  But they get 2 year work visas and I think its less a seasonal employment situation since the ski operation is much smaller (3 lifts) and mountain biking is huge.  anyway attracting 20 somethings to live and work in the valley is a valuable goal.


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## WinS (Mar 26, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> 130 seems like a lot of housing for only seasonal employees.  Are there also full time employees residing there?  Has running a shuttle from burlington or rutland been considered.  Not an option for the snow makers and lift mechanics who work overnight, but for non essential day workers maybe?  it must be really difficult to get these employees considering the cost to attract them.
> I'm comparing what I've seen/learned from going out to BC the last several years and staying in Nelson.  They've got a fairly large population of young kids from Australia working, not just at whitewater but also in town.  It seems like every waitress is a twenty something Australian.  There's a shuttle that brings the employees from the city to the mountain (where there's no lodging whatsoever).  But they get 2 year work visas and I think its less a seasonal employment situation since the ski operation is much smaller (3 lifts) and mountain biking is huge.  anyway attracting 20 somethings to live and work in the valley is a valuable goal.



Yes. We do have vans. Burlington and Montpelier/Barre are the markets for us. Since Australia and Canada are part of The Commonwealth, Australians can get the two year visas which is are available here in the USA. The other visa that some use is the H2-B but it is harder to qualify for and quite a bit more expensive. Some full time use our housing but usually temporarily until they find other housing.

The other thing that has impacted housing is Air B&B. Many seasonal spots have been taken off the market for employees.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 26, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes. We do have vans. Burlington and Montpelier/Barre are the markets for us. Since Australia and Canada are part of The Commonwealth, Australians can get the two year visas which is are available here in the USA. The other visa that some use is the H2-B but it is harder to qualify for and quite a bit more expensive. Some full time use our housing but usually temporarily until they find other housing.
> 
> The other thing that has impacted housing is Air B&B. Many seasonal spots have been taken off the market for employees.



interesting.  Thanks.
fwiw-I’ve noticed a dearth in seasonal rental and short term rentals the last few years.  Tight market.  Saw a report yesterday on the new hudson yards development in nyc.  2 of the 3 exclusively residential towers are rentals only.


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## rtjcbrown (Mar 27, 2019)

WinS said:


> We have two locations.  Expanding the building that we currently have at the Bottom of Lot F and building where the Old Rosita's Restaurant was just downhill from the Sugar Tree Inn that we bought and converted to employee housing.



Win: I did not notice Sugar Tree Inn was no longer open to the public. Sad to hear that as I have nice memories of that place. Curiosity got me looking about area inns for sale, and I noticed that there seems to be quite a lot. I found active listings for Mountain View, Slide Brook, Beaver Pond, Weather Top, Hostel Tevere, Christmas Tree, and there is still the old Egan's Big World Lodge on Rt.100. I know a few others, (Tucker Hill, Golden Lion, Hyde Away, etc..) have changed hands over the past couple of years. This seems like a lot of movement. Do you attribute this to any recent trends such as the growth of AirBnB?


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## WinS (Mar 27, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> Win: I did not notice Sugar Tree Inn was no longer open to the public. Sad to hear that as I have nice memories of that place. Curiosity got me looking about area inns for sale, and I noticed that there seems to be quite a lot. I found active listings for Mountain View, Slide Brook, Beaver Pond, Weather Top, Hostel Tevere, Christmas Tree, and there is still the old Egan's Big World Lodge on Rt.100. I know a few others, (Tucker Hill, Golden Lion, Hyde Away, etc..) have changed hands over the past couple of years. This seems like a lot of movement. Do you attribute this to any recent trends such as the growth of AirBnB?



I do not so.  I think each has its own story. It is a tough business and you are on 24/7.  Hard to say if Air B&B has hurts inns.  The Valley has always been short beds at key times, so I think Air B & B has allowed more supply for those times. The big challenge for inns and restaurants is the non-ski season. Losing the horse show was a terrible loss to the Valley and nothing has replaced it. Weddings, however, are big and growing and good for all.  I think that Lawson's will draw more into the Valley, and we need to better market what a great place this is in the warmer months and all the fun things to do here. Until we purchased Sugarbush we did not spend much time here in the summer and now know what we missed.


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## rocks860 (Mar 27, 2019)

I had been skiing sugarbush for about 30 years before I had made it up in the summertime and now I try to come up at some point every summer. It’s gorgeous up there and very relaxing 


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## HowieT2 (Mar 27, 2019)

WinS said:


> I do not so.  I think each has its own story. It is a tough business and you are on 24/7.  Hard to say if Air B&B has hurts inns.  The Valley has always been short beds at key times, so I think Air B & B has allowed more supply for those times. The big challenge for inns and restaurants is the non-ski season. Losing the horse show was a terrible loss to the Valley and nothing has replaced it. Weddings, however, are big and growing and good for all.  I think that Lawson's will draw more into the Valley, and we need to better market what a great place this is in the warmer months and all the fun things to do here. Until we purchased Sugarbush we did not spend much time here in the summer and now know what we missed.



imho-mtn biking expansion at the mtn especially easy flow trails like the ones at blueberry lake.


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## smac75 (Mar 27, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> imho-mtn biking expansion at the mtn especially easy flow trails like the ones at blueberry lake.



I agree - adding more bike trails at the mountain would be great. 

Also, I think a few of those for sale signs at the inns went up once word got out that SB was shopping for employee housing!


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## Killingtime (Mar 27, 2019)

WinS said:


> I think that Lawson's will draw more into the Valley, and we need to better market what a great place this is in the warmer months and all the fun things to do here. Until we purchased Sugarbush we did not spend much time here in the summer and now know what we missed.



Looking forward to a Lawson's run soon!!


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## Killingtime (Mar 27, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> imho-mtn biking expansion at the mtn especially easy flow trails like the ones at blueberry lake.



K expecting 37,000 bike visits this year. They did 30,000 last year. Haven't been to SB in the summer. I'll have to put it on my list.


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## Hawk (Mar 27, 2019)

I am headed to Aspen next week.  Does anybody know if Sugarbush pass holders are entitled to the Mountain Collective 50% discount at Aspen?


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## tumbler (Mar 27, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> imho-mtn biking expansion at the mtn especially easy flow trails like the ones at blueberry lake.



I agree that adding some easy flow type trails on the mtn would be great for more people to use them that are not very experienced.  The easy trails are pretty difficult and were pretty intimidating for a novice rider.


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## djd66 (Mar 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I am headed to Aspen next week.  Does anybody know if Sugarbush pass holders are entitled to the Mountain Collective 50% discount at Aspen?



I was there last year with my family and we all we able to use the Mtn Collective discount. Make sure to bring your pass!


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## kingslug (Mar 27, 2019)

I think we spent as much time in summer as winter in vt...would like to do some range shooting at one of the clubs..


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## MorningWoods (Mar 27, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> imho-mtn biking expansion at the mtn especially easy flow trails like the ones at blueberry lake.



My 9yo son did the MTB camp last year. They did an awesome job. Really great experience for him and can’t say enough good things about the instructors. 

That experience led us to checking out other bike parks in the area. SB terrain is high intermediate to expert only. Some of the other areas definitely have some more entry level terrain. I have to imagine it’s the national forest issues that handcuff SB from doing to much work?  Blueberry lake is a nice beginner trail network.  There are some climbs though.

Also. A lot of the other resorts have a few more summer activities for kids and families. Killington has a bunch of stuff. Ropes course, zip line, some eagle thing that made me almost puke, tubes, etc. My daughter and I drove down there for the day while my son was at MTB camp. 


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## Hawk (Mar 28, 2019)

Thank you.  That is awesome


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## WinS (Mar 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I am headed to Aspen next week.  Does anybody know if Sugarbush pass holders are entitled to the Mountain Collective 50% discount at Aspen?



Yes. You just need to go the the guest service desk and show you pass and a photo ID


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## NYDB (Mar 28, 2019)

I know its a ways off, but what would you guys expect to have open easter weekend this year?  Do you usually only plan on running a lift or 2 or will you open everything that has snow?  Weekend only?


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> I know its a ways off, but what would you guys expect to have open easter weekend this year?  Do you usually only plan on running a lift or 2 or will you open everything that has snow?  Weekend only?



Daily until at least 4/21 per what Win said a week or so ago when someone asked about that week. If they scale back operations, it would be closing the Gate House side at Lincoln Peak. Gate House often closes mid-April, but with the direction it faces it also melts out quickly in the spring. CR historically runs as long as it has snow (last year it was still open and skiing beautifully April 21/22...but that's highly weather dependent obviously and wasn't exactly normal).


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## Hawk (Mar 29, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes. You just need to go the the guest service desk and show you pass and a photo ID


Thanks Win.  That benefit really came in handy this year at Squaw and now Aspen.  First time going there.  From what I have heard it is a really cool place with lots of options for both on and off the mountain.


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## WinS (Mar 29, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Thanks Win.  That benefit really came in handy this year at Squaw and now Aspen.  First time going there.  From what I have heard it is a really cool place with lots of options for both on and off the mountain.



It is place with four separate area. I have alway stayed in Aspen itself and personally enjoy Highlands the best. There is good bus service if you aren't driving.  It has the most interesting  terrain and what I think you would enjoy the most. They have had a really good snow year too. Enjoy!


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## WinS (Mar 29, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> I know its a ways off, but what would you guys expect to have open easter weekend this year?  Do you usually only plan on running a lift or 2 or will you open everything that has snow?  Weekend only?



We are planning to stay open everyday through 4/28 and then reopen for a final Cinco de Mayo weekend.  Terrain and lifts will be scaling down after 4/14. If the snow holds we will likely run Bravo, Heaven's Gate and Castlerock through the 21st. After that we will need to begin summer maintenance on Bravo and will go to Valley House.  If the terrain holds up we will keep HG and CR going with access across Reverse Traverse.  Given the depth on Stein's, Coffee Run, Upper Snowball and Spring Fling those  should hold up though 5/5 unless we get some incredible warm days and nights.

And, remember that on Monday, April 1st we go to spring hours.  10am-5pm midweek and 9am to 5pm weekends.


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## kingslug (Apr 1, 2019)

Nice..I will be up 4-28 then...winter continues until further notice!


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Nice..I will be up 4-28 then...winter continues until further notice!



How long I go is going to depend on the weather and conditions I think. I made it to May at SB the past couple years and would love to do that again if possible. 4/27 I have my nephew's first birthday party and am debating what to do. If it is a beautiful spring weekend, I'd rather go up to SB. If the weather was iffy, then it makes more sense to stay home. Couple more weeks to figure that one out before the RSVP date lol.


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## kingslug (Apr 1, 2019)

I try to make it to May ...then figure out where to ski in the summer. Yes..I have a problem...


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## Kleetus (Apr 1, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is place with four separate area. I have alway stayed in Aspen itself and personally enjoy Highlands the best. There is good bus service if you aren't driving.  It has the most interesting  terrain and what I think you would enjoy the most. They have had a really good snow year too. Enjoy!



Just got back from there last week and echo what Win says. Highlands is pretty amazing and tons of snow out there right now.


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## jaybird (Apr 2, 2019)

.. what .. no groom on Sigi this morning?
That's OK .. we'll find a work around


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## WinS (Apr 2, 2019)

No, the groomers spend time doing some other work around the mountain.  Probably get to it tonight.


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## jaybird (Apr 2, 2019)

No worries Boss.
The surfaces are just fine today.. 
Cheers !


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 9, 2019)

Skied over the weekend, skiing was fun, visibility up top on Saturday was tough but conditions were good.  I thought I would share this photo with everyone.


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## cdskier (Apr 9, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> Skied over the weekend, skiing was fun, visibility up top on Saturday was tough but conditions were good.  I thought I would share this photo with everyone.
> View attachment 25103



LOL. At times this season they have had staff picking up skis that were left on the ground and putting them in the racks. Saw them doing that at the base of ME a couple weeks ago (might have been closing weekend when I saw that).


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## skiur (Apr 10, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> Skied over the weekend, skiing was fun, visibility up top on Saturday was tough but conditions were good.  I thought I would share this photo with everyone.
> View attachment 25103




I would have no problem stepping on/kicking those skis out of my way.  If the racks were full I would be a little more understanding but there are empty racks 10 feet away.


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## Smellytele (Apr 10, 2019)

skiur said:


> I would have no problem stepping on/kicking those skis out of my way.  If the racks were full I would be a little more understanding but there are empty racks 10 feet away.



I was thinking the ski area should throw them all together in a big pile like a bonfire ready to happen. With a can of gasoline next to it.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 10, 2019)

Ikon pass holders, for sure.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2019)

skiur said:


> I would have no problem stepping on/kicking those skis out of my way.  If the racks were full I would be a little more understanding but there are empty racks 10 feet away.



A pet peeve of mine as well.


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## ducky (Apr 10, 2019)

In case you hadn't heard, Roxbury Gap is closed until May 1st.


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## WinS (Apr 11, 2019)

That 





ThinkSnow said:


> Ikon pass holders, for sure.



That is not true. This is not limited to any one group of visitors. While this is aggravating, it has gotten better.

And it looks like we might have a decent Saturday and first part of Sunday with the Grift playing in the courtyard Saturday afternoon.


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2019)

The Grift on the courtyard and Sunny skies in the afternoon.  Temps are looking great also.  Truly a great weekend.  I will also be attending the celebration of Dave Gould.  I know it will be sad but in the spirit of Dave, I am going to smile and think of my best joke or funny story.  I may even leave my skis on the snow for good measure.  LOL  See you all there.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2019)

WinS said:


> That is not true. This is not limited to any one group of visitors. While this is aggravating, it has gotten better.
> 
> And it looks like we might have a decent Saturday and first part of Sunday with the Grift playing in the courtyard Saturday afternoon.



I'm thinking that ThinkSnow's comment may have been said a bit jokingly just because blaming Ikon is the popular thing to do nowadays! Anyone that has been here for a while knows that skis on the ground thing has been happening long before Ikon. I do agree it has gotten better most days.

Looking forward to some good spring skiing this weekend! Not many weekends left and I already am losing the one after Easter due to a family commitment.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 11, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Ikon pass holders, for sure.


  Yes, intended as a joke.  I've edited my post.


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## WinS (Apr 11, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Yes, intended as a joke.  I've edited my post.



Ha! Slow on the uptake this morning but looking out the window at a sunny day so headed out to enjoy Day 134


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2019)

WinS said:


> Ha! Slow on the uptake this morning but looking out the window at a sunny day so headed out to enjoy Day 134



You suck! (And I mean that in the nicest way possible while I sit here in my office 300 miles away from Sugarbush!) :razz: :grin:


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## HowieT2 (Apr 11, 2019)

cdskier said:


> You suck! (And I mean that in the nicest way possible while I sit here in my office 300 miles away from Sugarbush!) :razz: :grin:



Agreed.  depressing to us nyc metro folks.  But at 134 there's a legit shot at 150.  most impressive.  #jealous


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## tumbler (Apr 11, 2019)

I hope you will be able to farm enough snow to keep castlerock open this weekend.  I don't mind if I have to do a little walking.  

Off season improvement request- I'm all for natural skiing on castlerock but can a spur line be put down the connection from DS and across the bridge to hit the connection down from DS and just the work road under lift where is always melts out.  That's it.  5 hydrants.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I hope you will be able to farm enough snow to keep castlerock open this weekend.  I don't mind if I have to do a little walking.
> 
> Off season improvement request- I'm all for natural skiing on castlerock but can a spur line be put down the connection from DS and across the bridge to hit the connection down from DS and just the work road under lift where is always melts out.  That's it.  5 hydrants.



Are you listening in to my conversations? I was literally on the phone saying that exact same thing to my cousin about an hour ago!

Also hoping CR is open this weekend as I want to get some last runs in over there!


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 11, 2019)

I’m doing sugarbush Saturday specifically for castle rock

It’s open today so its should last til the weekend. Win?


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## tumbler (Apr 11, 2019)

Snow report this afternoon says it will be open but last weekend for it.  Also last weekend for north lynx and village Q


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## teleo (Apr 11, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The Grift on the courtyard and Sunny skies in the afternoon.  Temps are looking great also.  Truly a great weekend.



You better not have jinxed this.  Been waiting a while for a sat like that this yeat.  How do I put the reverse jinx on?

Thought last weekend was going to last for the rock.  Psyched thay moved some snow around. Although I'm fine with walking to the lift.


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## teleo (Apr 11, 2019)

Who's putting a snowman on the mid mtn snow stake?  2cnd time this week I've seen one.  Sorta cool though.[emoji3511]


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## HowieT2 (Apr 12, 2019)

teleo said:


> Who's putting a snowman on the mid mtn snow stake?  2cnd time this week I've seen one.  Sorta cool though.[emoji3511]


That’s awesome.


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2019)

teleo said:


> You better not have jinxed this.  Been waiting a while for a sat like that this yeat.  How do I put the reverse jinx on?
> 
> Thought last weekend was going to last for the rock.  Psyched thay moved some snow around. Although I'm fine with walking to the lift.


I don't believe on jinxing weather.  I just go by what I see.  Sunny or cloudy, it still will be warm.  That is not going to change.


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## Smellytele (Apr 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't believe on jinxing weather.  I just go by what I see.  Sunny or cloudy, it still will be warm.  That is not going to change.



Wow mr serious!


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## WinS (Apr 12, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I’m doing sugarbush Saturday specifically for castle rock
> 
> It’s open today so its should last til the weekend. Win?



It should last through Saturday at least and hopefully Sunday.  Patrol has been shoveling some snow to keep it going.  With the rain coming in Sunday night, I suspect it and some other natural trails will be done, but we do have a lot of depth in many spots still.

The spur line is something to think about for the future but will see where it ends up of the long list of CAPEX wishes.


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Wow mr serious!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Attack of the tele heads!    This looks like a conspiracy.


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## Smellytele (Apr 12, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Attack of the tele heads!    This looks like a conspiracy.



There much better with a sense of humor 


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## Julius (Apr 12, 2019)

couple shots of Liftline and Rumble today, 4/12..


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## smac75 (Apr 13, 2019)

Julius said:


> couple shots of Liftline and Rumble today, 4/12..



Today was just one of those those days. I will fall asleep tonight with a smile ear to ear.


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 16, 2019)

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## WinS (Apr 17, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Upper Organgrinder should be sweet today


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## Cornhead (Apr 17, 2019)

WinS said:


> Upper Organgrinder should be sweet today


It was

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## cdskier (Apr 18, 2019)

I couldn't justify 5 hours of solo driving tonight after work to ski only tomorrow morning and then have another 5 hours of a solo drive home Saturday for Easter on Sunday. Next weekend I have my nephew's 1st birthday party, so my only hope is that we make it to Cinco de Mayo weekend so I can get a couple more days in. I already took off work the Monday after that weekend so I can relax and stay as late as I want on Sunday. Keeping my fingers crossed that we make it to then.


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## Cornhead (Apr 19, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I couldn't justify 5 hours of solo driving tonight after work to ski only tomorrow morning and then have another 5 hours of a solo drive home Saturday for Easter on Sunday. Next weekend I have my nephew's 1st birthday party, so my only hope is that we make it to Cinco de Mayo weekend so I can get a couple more days in. I already took off work the Monday after that weekend so I can relax and stay as late as I want on Sunday. Keeping my fingers crossed that we make it to then.


It wasn't easy, 560 miles round trip, GPS sending me down flooded roads, but is sure was sweet, perfect spring skiing.

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## Scruffy (Apr 19, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> It wasn't easy, 560 miles round trip, GPS sending me down flooded roads, but is sure was sweet, perfect spring skiing.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Way to get after it, Cornhead!


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## Tonyr (Apr 19, 2019)

Sugarbush was great today. It didn't start raining until very late in the day, the morning was really nice. Coverage at Lincoln peak is still decent for this time of year. The run of the day for me was Steins. It's fully covered, all bumped up, and in great condition. I don't think that there is one patch of dirt showing on the trail. I was also able to make a run down Paradise as well the conditions/coverage was not nearly as good as Steins run. Other than short parts of Eden I stayed out of the woods, I think their pretty much cooked for the season. The photos below are all from Paradise. Don't let them fool you it was lots fun navigating though the rocks, streams, and dirt patches showing!

Tony

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## Bumpsis (Apr 19, 2019)

I scored a super nice spring day at Sugarbush this past Wednesday - snow froze overnight but with the wall to wall sunshine and rising temps, turned into a sweet corn fest and stayed that way for a long time up on top.
Pictures from Paradise
 Sorry for the sideways upload - can't seem to fix that.


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## ss20 (Apr 19, 2019)

Paradise was my pick of the day with Domino a close second.  The top of Organgrinder onto the bailout to Spillsville was some of the worst skiing I've done all year with blue ice and frozen cat tracks.  But Paradise was super soft with bumps, thin cover, and running water on the lower section. Great spring skiing.  Stein's was super super deep and SB should easily make their first weekend of May goal...hopefully they push it further.  Still a bit too frozen for my liking...

Tomorrow and Sunday for K.  Gonna do the PM shift tomorrow with less rain and Sunday looks like it'll be partly cloudy with temps in the 50s...can't complain about that...


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## WinS (Apr 20, 2019)

I am glad everyone got out earlier this week because today may  be the worst day of the season. The overnight rain left everything firm, fast and ugly.  The key was to turn on the white where you can find it.  Rain over cold snow creates terrible conditions. The rain paused this morning but is coming back for a bit and then it will clear out and we will get the groomers to work tonight so make things better for Easter Sunday. If the sun comes out tomorrow as it should, we will have a very different day and there is still a lot of depth on trails with  snowmaking. The Easter service in on!

And congrats to MRG for opening for day 136, an all time record for the longest season in their 70  years.


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## Tonyr (Apr 20, 2019)

WinS said:


> I am glad everyone got out earlier this week because today may  be the worst day of the season. The overnight rain left everything firm, fast and ugly.  The key was to turn on the white where you can find it.  Rain over cold snow creates terrible conditions. The rain paused this morning but is coming back for a bit and then it will clear out and we will get the groomers to work tonight so make things better for Easter Sunday. If the sun comes out tomorrow as it should, we will have a very different day and there is still a lot of depth on trails with  snowmaking. The Easter service in on!
> 
> And congrats to MRG for opening for day 136, an all time record for the longest season in their 70  years.




We are not pass holders (maybe next year) but our family skied Sugarbush 7 days this year and had a great time every day we skied there. Thanks for making the mountain such a great place to be along your contributions here on this forum Win, see you next year!

Tony


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## WinS (Apr 21, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> We are not pass holders (maybe next year) but our family skied Sugarbush 7 days this year and had a great time every day we skied there. Thanks for making the mountain such a great place to be along your contributions here on this forum Win, see you next year!
> 
> Tony



Thank you, Tony. A much better day today and with the sun coming out it will soften up a lot better.  Just about to head!


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## mikec142 (Apr 22, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> We are not pass holders (maybe next year) but our family skied Sugarbush 7 days this year and had a great time every day we skied there. Thanks for making the mountain such a great place to be along your contributions here on this forum Win, see you next year!
> 
> Tony



Tony,

I feel the same way.  Sugarbush is 5.5 hours from my house and I regularly make the drive.  My friends from home (NJ) don't understand why I'm not satisfied with Mount Snow or Stratton (both fun).  But there's something special about SB and MRG that make me want to spend as much time there as possible.


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## bumpcrasher (Apr 22, 2019)

Are both Heaven's Gate and Super Bravo done for the season??  I understand Super B has some maintenance issues yet the coverage on Heaven's Gate seemed good enough to keep it rolling and can get there via reverse traverse.


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## cdskier (Apr 22, 2019)

bumpcrasher said:


> Are both Heaven's Gate and Super Bravo done for the season??  I understand Super B has some maintenance issues yet the coverage on Heaven's Gate seemed good enough to keep it rolling and can get there via reverse traverse.



While Reverse Traverse is still open, HG Traverse was listed closed yesterday on the report so I suspect that trail and therefore access to HG is now the main problem even if there's still plenty of snow on the HG trails themselves.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> While Reverse Traverse is still open, HG Traverse was listed closed yesterday on the report so I suspect that trail and therefore access to HG is now the main problem even if there's still plenty of snow on the HG trails themselves.



Yep...HG Traverse is done.  Rode the HG chair yesterday and patroller  said it was the last day for the season. The HG Traverse was very bare looking uphill and it was closed on the Lower OG entrance.


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## bumpcrasher (Apr 22, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Yep...HG Traverse is done.  Rode the HG chair yesterday and patroller  said it was the last day for the season. The HG Traverse was very bare looking uphill and it was closed on the Lower OG entrance.



Well, not having Heaven's Gate for the next two weekends is kind of a buzzkill.  Organgrinder and Ripcord were likely deep enough to make it through this weekend at least.   Thanks for the information!!


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## Hawk (Apr 22, 2019)

What does heaven gate traverse have to do with it?  Is Bravo done for the year?   If not they need Downspout - upper jester or Lower Downspout-lower jester.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 22, 2019)

Hawk said:


> What does heaven gate traverse have to do with it?  Is Bravo done for the year?   If not they need Downspout - upper jester or Lower Downspout-lower jester.



Bravo is in scheduled maintenance mode.  Valley House is the only option.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 22, 2019)

bumpcrasher said:


> Well, not having Heaven's Gate for the next two weekends is kind of a buzzkill.  Organgrinder and Ripcord were likely deep enough to make it through this weekend at least.   Thanks for the information!!



Organgrider was in good shape....bunch of "crevasse" like breaks in the snow.  Ripcord was thin entering at the top and there were a few breaks happening down lower and the final stretch to the lift was closed.


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## cdskier (Apr 22, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Bravo is in scheduled maintenance mode.  Valley House is the only option.



Yea...they said a week or so ago that after Easter weekend they were starting "off-season" maintenance on Bravo so it is ready for the summer. That's the major downside of that lift being used all year. We sometimes lose it for the end of ski season (which really only matters if HG still would be skiable, otherwise just VH is fine).


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## 180 (Apr 22, 2019)

bumpcrasher said:


> Well, not having Heaven's Gate for the next two weekends is kind of a buzzkill.  Organgrinder and Ripcord were likely deep enough to make it through this weekend at least.   Thanks for the information!!



yes, no upper mtn = bummer


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## teleo (Apr 22, 2019)

That is a bummer.  If there is enough snow up top, just make valley house traverse go up. Nice little skin with very little vertical.


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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2019)

So this is all speculation until Win goes on the record.  Unless the snow is gone, why would no not run Bravo on the weekend so we can ski HG.  Schedule the maintenance one week later.  I bet the dam thing is broken.


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## teleo (Apr 23, 2019)

He sort of already did in case you missed his blog post from 4-18 at  https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins-word/sunshine-and-soft-snow-bring-the-people/ 

Since we need to begin summer maintenance on Bravo, next week we will move over to the Valley House Quad and if conditions still allow we will keep Heaven’s Gate spinning with access via Reverse Traverse and Heaven’s Gate Traverse. Unless the rain does more damage that we expect, this should be possible, hopefully with skiing still available on Downspout.   We will plan to run these lifts every day if possible right through Sunday, April 28th and then reopen Valley House for the next weekend and our grand finale with both skiing and golf along with some fun après. [emoji23]


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## cdskier (Apr 23, 2019)

Hawk said:


> So this is all speculation until Win goes on the record.  Unless the snow is gone, why would no not run Bravo on the weekend so we can ski HG.  Schedule the maintenance one week later.  I bet the dam thing is broken.



Not speculation at all. It was actually even longer ago than I thought that Win shared the plan here on this forum...Here's what he said right here back on March 29:



WinS said:


> We are planning to stay open everyday through 4/28 and then reopen for a final Cinco de Mayo weekend.  Terrain and lifts will be scaling down after 4/14. *If the snow holds we will likely run Bravo, Heaven's Gate and Castlerock through the 21st. After that we will need to begin summer maintenance on Bravo and will go to Valley House.*  If the terrain holds up we will keep HG and CR going with access across Reverse Traverse.  Given the depth on Stein's, Coffee Run, Upper Snowball and Spring Fling those  should hold up though 5/5 unless we get some incredible warm days and nights.
> 
> And, remember that on Monday, April 1st we go to spring hours.  10am-5pm midweek and 9am to 5pm weekends.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 23, 2019)

anyone know the status of the biking trails in the valley?
mad river riders posted last week that they were closed but trailforks says otherwise.


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## WinS (Apr 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Not speculation at all. It was actually even longer ago than I thought that Win shared the plan here on this forum...Here's what he said right here back on March 29:



Yes,  That is what I said awhile ago.  Summer maintenance takes that long and we have to have it inspected prior to opening for the summer. This is the first time that we have remained opened everyday the final week. We have normally closed and skiied VH the final two weekends.


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## mtl1076 (Apr 23, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> anyone know the status of the biking trails in the valley?
> mad river riders posted last week that they were closed but trailforks says otherwise.



still closed.  The local sports fields are just now drying up. I would expect another week or two at least for any trails to open.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 23, 2019)

Reports that I saw on Trailforks were from the Fall of 2018.  I took my dog for a short hike last weekend on the Catamount Trail and it was a wet, muddy mess with lots of water flowing on sections of the trail.


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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2019)

I guess you gotta pay attention to these things.  Still a shame that Hg is not open.  I was looking forward to it.


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## WinS (Apr 23, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I guess you gotta pay attention to these things.  Still a shame that Hg is not open.  I was looking forward to it.



Agreed. I said goodbye to all the trails on Sunday.  Stein's is skiing great yesterday and today.


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## Boxtop Willie (Apr 23, 2019)

Run the Jitney along HG Traverse?
Joking....sort of.


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## WinS (Apr 23, 2019)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Run the Jitney along HG Traverse?
> Joking....sort of.



Sorry. Just took the snow tires off


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## tumbler (Apr 24, 2019)

So what are the capital plans for the summer?  I recall something about the top of Sleeper and snowmaking on road around the chute.  Anything else?


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## slatham (Apr 24, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So what are the capital plans for the summer?  I recall something about the top of Sleeper and snowmaking on road around the chute.  Anything else?



Isn’t there pipe work required on Ripcord?


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## WinS (Apr 24, 2019)

slatham said:


> Isn’t there pipe work required on Ripcord?



We are finalizing the capital plans now.  Nothing very glamourous and visible but lots of items to keep everything functioning well on and of the mountain.  Ripcord was repaired.  Yes, we are adding snowmaking to Sleeper Road so we can groom it regularly and one can avoid Sleeper Chutes.  We are also putting the power lines that run from the base area to Heaven's Gate underground. With the volatility of the weather and snowmaking on Lower Downspout exposed power lines are risky. Losing them would cut off power for snowmaking up there and the power to run HG and CR lifts. This is an example of something not very glamorous or visible but important and not inexpensive. One visible project which is already underway is a redo of the courtyard. We are putting cobblestone down in place of the cement, adding more outdoor seating and putting in two fire pits. It is going to look really nice for all seasons. We are also permitting some additional and necessary employee housing which is going to be a multi-year effort. If total we will be investing at least $3 million in improvements this summer.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 24, 2019)

Thanks for that update Win.  What is happening with the Glen House deck?


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## tumbler (Apr 24, 2019)

Wow, burying those power lines is a huge expense, that's all 3 phase.


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## shadyjay (Apr 24, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Wow, burying those power lines is a huge expense, that's all 3 phase.



THAT is impressive!  It was one of my biggest fears during snowmaking, hitting those lines, and making sure I trained everyone else to know where they were, what they do, the dangers of hitting them on a Saturday morning, etc.  Luckily we only had to worry about them from HG down to CR cutoff, and again down by the maintenance shop.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 24, 2019)

WinS said:


> We are finalizing the capital plans now.  Nothing very glamourous and visible but lots of items to keep everything functioning well on and of the mountain.  Ripcord was repaired.  Yes, we are adding snowmaking to Sleeper Road so we can groom it regularly and one can avoid Sleeper Chutes.  We are also putting the power lines that run from the base area to Heaven's Gate underground. With the volatility of the weather and snowmaking on Lower Downspout exposed power lines are risky. Losing them would cut off power for snowmaking up there and the power to run HG and CR lifts. This is an example of something not very glamorous or visible but important and not inexpensive. One visible project which is already underway is a redo of the courtyard. We are putting cobblestone down in place of the cement, adding more outdoor seating and putting in two fire pits. It is going to look really nice for all seasons. We are also permitting some additional and necessary employee housing which is going to be a multi-year effort. If total we will be investing at least $3 million in improvements this summer.



yay to the cobblestone and fire pits.  that concrete could be slippery at times.


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## MommaBear (Apr 24, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> yay to the cobblestone and fire pits.  that concrete could be slippery at times.



Would think it would be a bear to clear of snow thou!


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## WinS (Apr 24, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Thanks for that update Win.  What is happening with the Glen House deck?



Staying as is until we decide what to do with the Glen House.  Expand and rebuild? Tear down and  build new?  Or more to another location?


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## WinS (Apr 24, 2019)

MommaBear said:


> Would think it would be a bear to clear of snow thou!



No. The cobblestone will actually hold up better.


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## WinS (Apr 24, 2019)

shadyjay said:


> THAT is impressive!  It was one of my biggest fears during snowmaking, hitting those lines, and making sure I trained everyone else to know where they were, what they do, the dangers of hitting them on a Saturday morning, etc.  Luckily we only had to worry about them from HG down to CR cutoff, and again down by the maintenance shop.



Does this mean you are coming back next winter? We miss you!


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## shadyjay (Apr 24, 2019)

WinS said:


> Does this mean you are coming back next winter? We miss you!



Thanks Win, I miss everyone too.  I do get a week off after New Years, so I could make an appearance to help out that week, though hopefully by then, we'd be off Downspout!

I can't come back for the entire winter, though.  It does feel weird to say I only rode twice this season, when I've been getting 70-90 days of riding in for the past 10 years.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> Staying as is until we decide what to do with the Glen House.  Expand and rebuild? Tear down and  build new?  Or more to another location?


  How will these decisions be determined?


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## tumbler (Apr 25, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> How will these decisions be determined?



permitting and $$$


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## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> How will these decisions be determined?



fwiw-I like the glen house just where it is.  dont think the view up the mtn could be duplicated elsewhere.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw-I like the glen house just where it is.  dont think the view up the mtn could be duplicated elsewhere.


 +1


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## Hawk (Apr 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw-I like the glen house just where it is.  dont think the view up the mtn could be duplicated elsewhere.


Not that I want it to move, but if they did don't you think just across from the bottom of FIS next to looking good would be awesome?  A big deck looking up FIS and Back diamond would be a fine alternative.  
I think the question of how the decision will be made is an odd question. I mean it is Win's mountain and Ellen is mostly not on public land.  He decides what he wants and does it.  That is how the decision gets made.  I would hope he ignores all the winey Mellon heads when the bitch about how things used to be.  HA HA


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## mikec142 (Apr 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> the winey Mellon heads



https://images.app.goo.gl/4MYq7VM83CPU2Es28


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## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Not that I want it to move, but if they did don't you think just across from the bottom of FIS next to looking good would be awesome?  A big deck looking up FIS and Back diamond would be a fine alternative.
> I think the question of how the decision will be made is an odd question. I mean it is Win's mountain and Ellen is mostly not on public land.  He decides what he wants and does it.  That is how the decision gets made.  I would hope he ignores all the winey Mellon heads when the bitch about how things used to be.  HA HA



no, I like it right by the lifts there.  just needs to be bigger.  and new bathrooms would be nice.


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## benski (Apr 25, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw-I like the glen house just where it is.  dont think the view up the mtn could be duplicated elsewhere.



I think moving it closer to the GMX might allow for better views towards the valley, and a little more space between summit and the Glen House is a good thing. A structure more appropriate for wedding could be useful, and might help keep people away from the Base Lodge. I also think GMX has a lot of potential for Mountain Biking.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2019)

So I have a question for all of you and for Win from the resorts perspective.  How do you like the reusable plates and bowls in the gatehouse cafeteria?  Is it working out for the mtn?  
I think its great and hope that its at least competitive cost wise with the disposable stuff.  Any chance the plastic cutlery is next to go?

my daughter is finishing her first year of college and her school only has disposable plates and cutlery.  she hates the food situation and I think that's in large measure due to not having real plates and silverware.  eating on paper plates with plastic cutlery every meal is depressing, I think.  I've been trying to cut back on my use of single use items at my office but its not easy.


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## Newpylong (Apr 26, 2019)

I have many fond memories of "hiding" in the Glen House while supposed to be running gates in the mid 90s. I say keep it right where it is, expanding towards the South if need be.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 26, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> no, I like it right by the lifts there.  just needs to be bigger.  and new bathrooms would be nice.


 +1


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## WinS (Apr 26, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> So I have a question for all of you and for Win from the resorts perspective.  How do you like the reusable plates and bowls in the gatehouse cafeteria?  Is it working out for the mtn?
> I think its great and hope that its at least competitive cost wise with the disposable stuff.  Any chance the plastic cutlery is next to go?
> 
> my daughter is finishing her first year of college and her school only has disposable plates and cutlery.  she hates the food situation and I think that's in large measure due to not having real plates and silverware.  eating on paper plates with plastic cutlery every meal is depressing, I think.  I've been trying to cut back on my use of single use items at my office but its not easy.



It is a bit more expensive but it is working.  We do find that plates are disappearing and some people are throwing them  in the trash. That is why we are experimenting with having people leave their full trays and we will do the sorting. We have been piloting this in the GH the past few weeks and it seems to be working well.


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## Hawk (Apr 27, 2019)

Smashing morning out there.   Sunny 50 light winds.........NOT!    I am gonna wait out the monsoon and get out there at some point.  I guess the good news is its got to get better.   #skiitnomaterwhat


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 27, 2019)

Sleeper pow day ??


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 27, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*








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## Hawk (Apr 27, 2019)

That looks encouraging. Too bad we can't get to the top.   Looking out my window right now at Spring Fling there is probably 3 skiers.  We are hold off until noon.  I am sure it will be fine.  LOL


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## teleo (Apr 27, 2019)

But Hawk, it's snowing out!  Seriously, it beats raining.  Will be out at some point with my daughter.  Gotta get to 50 and 40 days each.  Or, at least close down the condo.  Can't buy good weekend weather this spring.


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## skiur (Apr 27, 2019)

teleo said:


> But Hawk, it's snowing out!  Seriously, it beats raining.  Will be out at some point with my daughter.  Gotta get to 50 and 40 days each.  Or, at least close down the condo.  Can't buy good weekend weather this spring.



This time of year I would rather rain than snow, in rain at least the snow is soft.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 28, 2019)

skiur said:


> This time of year I would rather rain than snow, in rain at least the snow is soft.



such words should never be spoken.


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 28, 2019)

Sun 


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## HowieT2 (Apr 28, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is a bit more expensive but it is working.  We do find that plates are disappearing and some people are throwing them  in the trash. That is why we are experimenting with having people leave their full trays and we will do the sorting. We have been piloting this in the GH the past few weeks and it seems to be working well.



Thanks.


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## Hawk (Apr 28, 2019)

teleo said:


> But Hawk, it's snowing out!  Seriously, it beats raining.  Will be out at some point with my daughter.  Gotta get to 50 and 40 days each.  Or, at least close down the condo.  Can't buy good weekend weather this spring.



Not necessarily.  Sometimes it freezes and you get dust on crust.  But in this case you are correct.  we got out at 11:45 and the rain stopped all the way to the bottom with light snow and we skied until after 4.  Sun came out at 1 it warmed up a bit and it was actually really good.  The new snow mixed with the groomed mush and made it pretty consistent.   We preferred Steins because spring Fling, snowball and lower organgrinder were pretty sticky.  Steins skied really nice.  Many laps.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 28, 2019)

Today the temps dipped under freezing last night so pretty firm early on.  We will see what this afternoon brings.


----------



## teleo (Apr 28, 2019)

Yesterday turned out good.  Way better than expected.  Birdland was good too but lower grinder was as sticky as snowball.  Had to ski fast so the sticky stuff wouldn't slow you down. If that makes sense.  

Hope it's not frozen solid today.  Allready put away the stiff skiis.


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 29, 2019)

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## mikec142 (Apr 29, 2019)

Thanks for posting this picture...I think the latest I've ever skied SB was last season on 4/1.  Two weeks before they had winter storm Skylar which dropped 60 inches and even after a warm weekend the mountain was 100% open.  So interesting to see what it looks like this time of year.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Thanks for posting this picture...I think the latest I've ever skied SB was last season on 4/1.  Two weeks before they had winter storm Skylar which dropped 60 inches and even after a warm weekend the mountain was 100% open.  So interesting to see what it looks like this time of year.



Just look at the webcam on their website (pretty sure that pic posted was just a screenshot of it) 

There's also a nice view from across the valley of both LP and ME: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehASyl3MnLk

(The recent snow the past couple days made the mountains look pretty white again once you get a few hundred feet above the base)


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## mikec142 (Apr 29, 2019)

cdskier,

Thanks...actually didn't really occur to me to look at the webcams.  Frankly, once my season is over, I tend to stay away from the webcams because I know that it will make me want to do something stupid like anger my wife by heading up north for the weekend. 

Actually, while we are on the subject, I'd love to see a more extensive webcam network.  Not sure of the costs to install and maintain, but the happiness it would bring me would be worth it. What say you, Win?


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 29, 2019)

I look at all the cams all over to check current conditions even though I live right here yesterday I watched the clouds lift and went up for a great afternoon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









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## gladerider (Apr 29, 2019)

was there yesterday at 10. the conditions were firm. with a few places with untouched cords. was great. the sun started to beat down hard, by around 1130 we were moving slush. the cords started to slow us down. stein way was fantastic. i saw this couple taking their son and daughter down stein way. they couldn't have been more than 4 or 5. they were having fun. my daughter and i called it quits about 1230. then around 2, on our way home, we saw rain starting to move in. i think SB has enough snow to last another few weeks. this week's colder temp prolly extends another week or so. was a great finale to our season.


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## Julius (May 1, 2019)

I don't particularly like getting mail as it's usually a bill or junk mail, etc.  So when I saw an official looking envelope from Sugarbush today, I thought..what did I do now? Haha.

Well I have to say I was pleasantly surprised.  A letter with the simple acknowledgement of skiing 60 plus days at the Bush this season.  Much appreciated, thanks Win!

We'll be there this wknd!


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## cdskier (May 1, 2019)

That's a pretty cool gesture.


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## mikec142 (May 1, 2019)

I love this kind of stuff.  Customer service and true interaction with customers/clients/patients is sadly (for the most part) a thing of the past.  

Kudos to Win and the Sugarbush team for taking the time to acknowledge some of their best customers.


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## rtjcbrown (May 1, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I love this kind of stuff.  Customer service and true interaction with customers/clients/patients is sadly (for the most part) a thing of the past.
> 
> Kudos to Win and the Sugarbush team for taking the time to acknowledge some of their best customers.



I agree. A little bit goes a long way. 

Keep on doing the right thing Win!


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## HowieT2 (May 1, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> I agree. A little bit goes a long way.
> 
> Keep on doing the right thing Win!



bravo! (pun intended).


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## Hawk (May 2, 2019)

I did 60 days this year but 20 were out west or at other places.  This is pretty cool that they took the time to do that.  I have to say that based on what I here from so many other places, the value of being an independent area is really large.  They really seem to care and it shows.


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## skiur (May 2, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I did 60 days this year but 20 were out west or at other places.  This is pretty cool that they took the time to do that.  I have to say that based on what I here from so many other places, the value of being an independent area is really large.  They really seem to care and it shows.



Do many other places do something like that?  I know K does it for the 100 day club, 60 seems much more attainable for the average person.  Unless you live in a ski town it would be real tough to make 100.  Anybody know of other mountains doing something similar?


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## slatham (May 2, 2019)

Julius said:


> I don't particularly like getting mail as it's usually a bill or junk mail, etc.  So when I saw an official looking envelope from Sugarbush today, I thought..what did I do now? Haha.
> 
> Well I have to say I was pleasantly surprised.  A letter with the simple acknowledgement of skiing 60 plus days at the Bush this season.  Much appreciated, thanks Win!
> 
> We'll be there this wknd!



Class act!


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## machski (May 2, 2019)

Well, I can assure you SR does not do this.  In fact they can't, they do not even have a system to accurately count individual skier days. 

I really enjoyed the fact of receiving thank you emails for visiting when I skied with my Ikon at Sugarbush this year.  I realize some of that was marketing to have me come back (which I did but would have anyway) but it still was a nice touch.  Did I mention I love RFID systems?  So smooth and easy for direct to the lift and I can only imagine the benefit of that type of data for the areas, lift usage, skier numbers, patterns.  Some might say too much data, but I have to imagine it allows better info for future investment.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## rtjcbrown (May 2, 2019)

A pie in the sky question for Win: If permitting and money were no object, what major project/expansion/improvement would you like to do at the ski resort?


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## thebigo (May 2, 2019)

What is going to be my best option if driving up from NH on Sunday, is the route from exit 5 fully passable in a forester?


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## tumbler (May 2, 2019)

Roxbury gap still very muddy and rutty even though it says reopening on the 1st.  Bethel Mtn rd still closed also from flooding.


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## Hawk (May 2, 2019)

Take Exit 3 follow 107 to 100 it is a little shorter than going all the way up to exit 9.  Roxbury is still very muddy and it is going to rain tomorrow again.


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## WinS (May 2, 2019)

Some will be getting a 100 day letter soon.


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## WinS (May 2, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> A pie in the sky question for Win: If permitting and money were no object, what major project/expansion/improvement would you like to do at the ski resort?



My team already has their list:

Additional snowmaking pond for insurance and to allow more water capacity at LP. (We have excess air)
New Glen House Lodge
Additional mid- mountain Lodge at LP
More employee housing
Maybe replace HG with new fixed grip Quad with lower profile (more wind protection)
Replace Inverness lift
Expand ME base Lodge
Renovate Sugarbush Inn
Renovate SHARC
New vehicle maintenance building
New golf clubhouse 
Some additional summer activities
Replace Bravo in 5 years.
And that’s only some of the items.


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## slatham (May 2, 2019)

WinS said:


> My team already has their list:
> 
> Additional snowmaking pond for insurance and to allow more water capacity at LP. (We have excess air)
> New Glen House Lodge
> ...



Yikes! 

I don't think your being ambitious enough ;-)


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## ktrerotola (May 2, 2019)

skiur said:


> Do many other places do something like that?  I know K does it for the 100 day club, 60 seems much more attainable for the average person.  Unless you live in a ski town it would be real tough to make 100.  Anybody know of other mountains doing something similar?



LOVED SB’s 60 days in 60th year, great touch. Jackson Hole does 100 day club - invites those who ski 100+ days to a breakfast in Teton Village. Better yet, they post a list a several weeks from closing of those who have either made 100 days or will be eligible to make 100 days based on the remaining days in season.   

I’m right there with you Hawk, I hit 60 days and 80-90% of those were at SB.


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## cdskier (May 2, 2019)

ktrerotola said:


> LOVED SB’s 60 days in 60th year, great touch. Jackson Hole does 100 day club - invites those who ski 100+ days to a breakfast in Teton Village. Better yet, they post a list a several weeks from closing of those who have either made 100 days or will be eligible to make 100 days based on the remaining days in season.
> 
> I’m right there with you Hawk, I hit 60 days and 80-90% of those were at SB.



I'm down a bit from last year this year...I'm at 39 this year and going for 41 this weekend (only 1 day not at SB this season). My previous best was last year at 46.


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## cdskier (May 2, 2019)

WinS said:


> My team already has their list:
> 
> Additional snowmaking pond for insurance and to allow more water capacity at LP. (We have excess air)
> New Glen House Lodge
> ...



That's a great list. And all things that would keep Sugarbush "Sugarbush". Nothing super crazy in there that would drastically change the resort from what we love.


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## thetrailboss (May 2, 2019)

Good list.

Good for SB opening this weekend.


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## machski (May 3, 2019)

ktrerotola said:


> LOVED SB’s 60 days in 60th year, great touch. Jackson Hole does 100 day club - invites those who ski 100+ days to a breakfast in Teton Village. Better yet, they post a list a several weeks from closing of those who have either made 100 days or will be eligible to make 100 days based on the remaining days in season.
> 
> I’m right there with you Hawk, I hit 60 days and 80-90% of those were at SB.
> 
> ...


You don't have to go that far away to compare another resort that celebrates 100 day skiers.  Just go down Route 100 a bit.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## HowieT2 (May 3, 2019)

WinS said:


> My team already has their list:
> 
> Additional snowmaking pond for insurance and to allow more water capacity at LP. (We have excess air)
> New Glen House Lodge
> ...



awesome stuff.  If and when HG is replaced, is the thinking that the new lift ends at the same spot as the existing terminus, or someplace else, like up where the old gondola ended?


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## cdskier (May 3, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> awesome stuff.  If and when HG is replaced, is the thinking that the new lift ends at the same spot as the existing terminus, or someplace else, like up where the old gondola ended?



Wouldn't moving it up where the old gondola ended worsen the wind impact? I'd have to think they would keep it right around the current alignment.


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## slatham (May 3, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Wouldn't moving it up where the old gondola ended worsen the wind impact? I'd have to think they would keep it right around the current alignment.



That would be my conclusion too - too windy up where gondi was. A regrade of the lift terminus flow into OG/Jester would be nice.....


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2019)

slatham said:


> That would be my conclusion too - too windy up where gondi was. A regrade of the lift terminus flow into OG/Jester would be nice.....



Exactly.  Too exposed. 

Also agree that the regrade would be a good idea.


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## teleo (May 3, 2019)

Any word on what will officially be open this weekend?  Are we down to just Stiens? Or can you patch together Snowball, fling and a way to lower grinder?


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## HowieT2 (May 3, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  Too exposed.
> 
> Also agree that the regrade would be a good idea.



That would work.


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## cdskier (May 3, 2019)

Damn...you people are getting lazy! The short little hike from HG to Jester is good exercise!


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## rtjcbrown (May 3, 2019)

WinS said:


> My team already has their list:
> 
> Additional snowmaking pond for insurance and to allow more water capacity at LP. (We have excess air)
> New Glen House Lodge
> ...



Some very worthwhile items on that list! I'll send you a blank check next week. Just let me know the damage.


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Damn...you people are getting lazy! The short little hike from HG to Jester is good exercise!



Probably.  I am looking at it in hindsight by a few years admittedly.


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## WinS (May 3, 2019)

teleo said:


> Any word on what will officially be open this weekend?  Are we down to just Stiens? Or can you patch together Snowball, fling and a way to lower grinder?



Should have Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee Run too.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2019)

machski said:


> Well, I can assure you SR does not do this.  In fact they can't, they do not even have a system to accurately count individual skier days.
> 
> I really enjoyed the fact of receiving thank you emails for visiting when I skied with my Ikon at Sugarbush this year.  I realize some of that was marketing to have me come back (which I did but would have anyway) but it still was a nice touch.  Did I mention I love RFID systems?  So smooth and easy for direct to the lift and I can only imagine the benefit of that type of data for the areas, lift usage, skier numbers, patterns.  Some might say too much data, but I have to imagine it allows better info for future investment.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



That upgrade to RFID is very costly. Sugarbush had to do 7 lifts and win confirmed it was not inexpensive.  They have to install steel swing arms that could swing out of the path of the groomers so that they could groom around the base.  They do not have them on the upper mountain lifts because it is a pretty good hike to those locations.  Sunday river would have to do 11 I figure: (2) White cap, (2) Barker, (3) South Ridge, (1) North Peak, (2) Aurora, (1) Jordan.  There might be issues with short hikes to White Heat, Spruce and Oz.  White heat is the only one that I would hike to for the best skiing. Not a big deal.  I think people on the SR message board actually talked to Dana B about that and he thought it was cost prohibitive.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2019)

The depth and wall to wall coverage on steins is impressive. I can’t remember the last time it was that well covered on closing weekend. Nice job by mtn ops and snowmaking teams! Skiing very well too. Spring fling is a bit crispy though so I’ll stick to lapping steins for now.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> The depth and wall to wall coverage on steins is impressive. I can’t remember the last time it was that well covered on closing weekend. Nice job by mtn ops and snowmaking teams! Skiing very well too. Spring fling is a bit crispy though so I’ll stick to lapping steins for now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



See you out there shortly.  I was just waiting for people to body groom the snow and loosen it up.  Fog band seem to be lowering again.  Was hoping for some breaks of sun or so the satellite image shows.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> See you out there shortly.  I was just waiting for people to body groom the snow and loosen it up.  Fog band seem to be lowering again.  Was hoping for some breaks of sun or so the satellite image shows.



Fog band moving up and down a lot. One run you are clear top to bottom on steins and the next you have fog halfway down it.


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## machski (May 4, 2019)

Hawk said:


> That upgrade to RFID is very costly. Sugarbush had to do 7 lifts and win confirmed it was not inexpensive.  They have to install steel swing arms that could swing out of the path of the groomers so that they could groom around the base.  They do not have them on the upper mountain lifts because it is a pretty good hike to those locations.  Sunday river would have to do 11 I figure: (2) White cap, (2) Barker, (3) South Ridge, (1) North Peak, (2) Aurora, (1) Jordan.  There might be issues with short hikes to White Heat, Spruce and Oz.  White heat is the only one that I would hike to for the best skiing. Not a big deal.  I think people on the SR message board actually talked to Dana B about that and he thought it was cost prohibitive.


DB thinks a lot of things are too costly.  The lines at ticket windows/points this year for Ikon users to get day tickets was absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary if they would upgrade their tech.  I would change your layout of gates.  Only 2 in South ridge (carpet does not need it).  Spruce should have it with the uphill traffic being easily reached.  Aurora should not have any, hardest point to reach outside of other lifts and Jordan needs two, one on the double as well due to hotel there.  The mountain claims they tried it but the system they demo'd failed anytime the outside temp was below 0.  I know SB's system doesn't seem to have that problem as I skied at -5 this year and it worked fine that day.

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## Zand (May 4, 2019)

machski said:


> DB thinks a lot of things are too costly.  The lines at ticket windows/points this year for Ikon users to get day tickets was absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary if they would upgrade their tech.  I would change your layout of gates.  Only 2 in South ridge (carpet does not need it).  Spruce should have it with the uphill traffic being easily reached.  Aurora should not have any, hardest point to reach outside of other lifts and Jordan needs two, one on the double as well due to hotel there.  The mountain claims they tried it but the system they demo'd failed anytime the outside temp was below 0.  I know SB's system doesn't seem to have that problem as I skied at -5 this year and it worked fine that day.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



The thing I don't understand about the Boyne resorts is that you don't need RFID to make the Ikon Pass direct to lift. Stratton doesn't have RFID but the Ikon worked like a normal season pass...they scan it with handhelds and off you go. Maybe that can only be done at Alterra hills.

I was shocked to see Smuggs installed RFID. Never thought they'd spend money on ANYTHING


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## machski (May 4, 2019)

Zand said:


> The thing I don't understand about the Boyne resorts is that you don't need RFID to make the Ikon Pass direct to lift. Stratton doesn't have RFID but the Ikon worked like a normal season pass...they scan it with handhelds and off you go. Maybe that can only be done at Alterra hills.
> 
> I was shocked to see Smuggs installed RFID. Never thought they'd spend money on ANYTHING


SR doesn't scan passes anymore, Loon still does, not sure on SL but I think so.  My understanding is that Boyne's computer system in the East is too antiquated to handle New England and Ikon pass database.  It was suppose to be upgraded this year.  Let's just say the upgrade didn't go so well on the F&B side, can't imagine the ticketing side was any better.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (May 4, 2019)

machski said:


> SR doesn't scan passes anymore, Loon still does, not sure on SL but I think so.  My understanding is that Boyne's computer system in the East is too antiquated to handle New England and Ikon pass database.  It was suppose to be upgraded this year.  Let's just say the upgrade didn't go so well on the F&B side, can't imagine the ticketing side was any better.



How does sr know whether a pass is valid or not if they don’t scan at all?

And back on topic of sugarbush, I still can’t get over the coverage on steins.





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## Julius (May 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> .. And back on topic of sugarbush, I still can’t get over the coverage on steins.



oh ya, what a fun day of laps..


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## Hawk (May 5, 2019)

Good day yesterday.  All the regulars, a bunch of Mad River regulars and tons of quad pack & ICON people.  It was fun to ski in all kinds of mixed groups and rip it up together.  I even saw a good friend back from a season at Big Ski.   As usual at the end of the day in the castlerock, it was just us, the pass holders watching the Derby.  That was a crazy ending to the race.  I just wish we could get some sun, maybe today.


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## cdskier (May 5, 2019)

Thanks for getting reverse traverse back open! Good fun snow on the trails off it!


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## WinS (May 5, 2019)

Sorry to miss everyone on the final weekend, but did not make it back from the NSAA show to enjoy the final turns at SB. Only got to 148 days so may have to take a quick trip to get in another two. Thank you all for making our season a successful one again.


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## JimG. (May 5, 2019)

Hawk said:


> As usual at the end of the day in the castlerock, it was just us, the pass holders watching the Derby.  That was a crazy ending to the race.  I just wish we could get some sun, maybe today.



Yeah now they've managed to wreck the derby with that stupid DQ. Horse racing is in dire straights anyway, last thing needed was an unnecessary and heavy handed administrative ruling that screwed the winner. I have several friends who have been life long bettors who are swearing off of horse racing after yesterday.


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## WWF-VT (May 5, 2019)

Nice finale to the season today with a few hours of blue skies and sunshine and the unexpected bonus of Reverse Traverse and additional lower mountain terrain to ski.


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## tumbler (May 6, 2019)

For summer activities June 29th is later than previous years.  Does anyone know why?  Seems at least a week later.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2019)

Zand said:


> I was shocked to see Smuggs installed RFID. Never thought they'd spend money on ANYTHING



One of my friends skinned up there a couple weeks ago and posted pics on FB.  I thought I saw an RFID Gate at the bottom of one of Smuggs' chairs and I was like :blink:  :lol:


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## Zand (May 6, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> One of my friends skinned up there a couple weeks ago and posted pics on FB.  I thought I saw an RFID Gate at the bottom of one of Smuggs' chairs and I was like :blink:  :lol:



Funny part is every other mountain I went to on the VT 4 pass that has RFID was happy to include the RFID fee as part of the pass. But of course friendly ol' Smuggs made damn sure they got that 5 dollars and change from you. Worth it though


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## cdskier (May 6, 2019)

As nice as yesterday was, today would have been stunning. Perfect bluebird skies as I was leaving this morning




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## Hawk (May 7, 2019)

tumbler said:


> For summer activities June 29th is later than previous years.  Does anyone know why?  Seems at least a week later.



It might have to do with maintenance.  I guess there was some badly needed maintenance on the Bravo lift and that is why they closed the lift early causing the need to keep reverse traverse open.  They were saying they needed a certain amount of time to complete the work in time for summer activities.  I guess that means they also needed to delay summer activities also if you say it is a later start.  They started taking off all the chairs last week.


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## WinS (May 7, 2019)

Hawk said:


> It might have to do with maintenance.  I guess there was some badly needed maintenance on the Bravo lift and that is why they closed the lift early causing the need to keep reverse traverse open.  They were saying they needed a certain amount of time to complete the work in time for summer activities.  I guess that means they also needed to delay summer activities also if you say it is a later start.  They started taking off all the chairs last week.




We always close Bravo at this date. The difference this year is that we stayed open every days a week longer. Last year we closed and then reopened  two final weekends This is just routine maintenance to get prepared for the summer. We also have to get the state to inspect it. Our summer activities normally start the weekend before the fourth. It all gets done and we can get the lift inspected we will begin summer activities on the 22nd.


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## Hawk (Jun 7, 2019)

Sugarbush is having their Brewgrass festival this weekend.  Really good time if you like Vermont Beer.  23 Breweries in attendance:

• 14th Star • Citizen Cider • Collaborative Brewing • Cousins Brewing • Drop In • Farnham Ale & Lager • Fiddlehead • Frost Beer Works • Goodwater • Halyard • Harpoon • Hermit Thrush • Lawson’s Finest Liquids • Long Trail • Magic Hat • Otter Creek • Prohibition Pig • Shed • Stone Corral • Switchback • Upper Pass • Von Trapp • Zero Gravity •

We have a big ride planned for the morning and lots of beer for the afternoon.  I think Sunday is going to hurt.  ;-)


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Sugarbush is having their Brewgrass festival this weekend.  Really good time if you like Vermont Beer.  23 Breweries in attendance:
> 
> • 14th Star • Citizen Cider • Collaborative Brewing • Cousins Brewing • Drop In • Farnham Ale & Lager • Fiddlehead • Frost Beer Works • Goodwater • Halyard • Harpoon • Hermit Thrush • Lawson’s Finest Liquids • Long Trail • Magic Hat • Otter Creek • Prohibition Pig • Shed • Stone Corral • Switchback • Upper Pass • Von Trapp • Zero Gravity •
> 
> We have a big ride planned for the morning and lots of beer for the afternoon.  I think Sunday is going to hurt.  ;-)



Should be a good time. Weather looks excellent. I'm coming up late tonight.


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 21, 2019)

Does anyone have updates on the proposed regrading on parts of the Sleeper trail?


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## cdskier (Jun 21, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Does anyone have updates on the proposed regrading on parts of the Sleeper trail?



They posted some pictures on Facebook a week or so ago showing some of the widening. And I believe I read somewhere that pipe is now being laid


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 21, 2019)

Hm, ok- not on faceplace- thanks for the update!  Would be nice to see something on here.


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## cdskier (Jun 21, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Hm, ok- not on faceplace- thanks for the update!  Would be nice to see something on here.



Not particularly great angles, but here's what they posted:


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks- just rescued the Sugarblog from my Junk folder & see Win had mentioned that snowmaking pipes are also going in.


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## cdskier (Jul 9, 2019)

A bunch of interesting stats and information in this article:
https://www.valleyreporter.com/inde...3436-a-record-year-in-the-books-for-sugarbush


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## benski (Jul 9, 2019)

So they reduced electricity usage by more than 40% since 2012. I did a search on Skimrv.com and the first mention of low energy guns was November 2006 so I shudder to think how much energy they needed back in 2005 before they improved the guns.


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## Newpylong (Jul 10, 2019)

Helps people realize how much it costs to put the white stuff down.


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## urungus (Jul 10, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Helps people realize how much it costs to put the white stuff down.



Yes, was surprised that lift operations and snowmaking used 7 x the electricity of the resort itself (lodges, Clay Brook, etc.) ... 7 million kilowatt hours annually vs 1 million


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 25, 2019)

With all the chatter in other forums regarding Vail purchasing Peak resorts, I just wanted to thank Win for everything he's done for Sugarbush.  Please don't ever give in to selling to one of the giant ski conglomerates-- Sugarbush is just fine as-is.


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## slatham (Jul 25, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> With all the chatter in other forums regarding Vail purchasing Peak resorts, I just wanted to thank Win for everything he's done for Sugarbush.  Please don't ever give in to selling to one of the giant ski conglomerates-- Sugarbush is just fine as-is.



I second the motion!


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## cdskier (Jul 25, 2019)

slatham said:


> I second the motion!



+1


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## skimagic (Jul 25, 2019)

slatham said:


> I second the motion!



And thanks for continuing to partner with Warren Miller to offer free tickets in this era of dying discounts.


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## skiur (Jul 26, 2019)

skimagic said:


> And thanks for continuing to partner with Warren Miller to offer free tickets in this era of dying discounts.



Kinda tough to partner with a dead guy!


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## rtjcbrown (Jul 26, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> With all the chatter in other forums regarding Vail purchasing Peak resorts, I just wanted to thank Win for everything he's done for Sugarbush.  Please don't ever give in to selling to one of the giant ski conglomerates-- Sugarbush is just fine as-is.



Agreed. Thanks Win! 

This makes a strong co-marketing alliance with MRG even more important.


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## tumbler (Sep 9, 2019)

Just saw on Lift Blog that the GMVS platter lift is proposed to be replaced with a longer version- from the exit of Walt's and Semi-tough to the top of the Inverness lift.  Does that mean more trail closures for that area?  I really like skiing over there.


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## Newpylong (Sep 9, 2019)

It will be a T-Bar, and it just means the quad won't have to run midweek. You can still slog across Northway if you want to ski Semi Tough or the woods. That's all that would be open if they're training anyway.


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## drjeff (Sep 9, 2019)

I think that some of this also has to do with Sugarbush and GMVS working on Brambles to get it homologated last season all the way from just below the top of the Inverness Quad down to maybe 100 yards or so past where Brambles feeds back into Inverness


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## WinS (Sep 9, 2019)

No. GMVS is replacing their Poma, and it will come down further but will not change trail openings or closings.


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## tumbler (Sep 9, 2019)

WinS said:


> No. GMVS is replacing their Poma, and it will come down further but will not change trail openings or closings.



Thanks for the info!


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## slatham (Sep 17, 2019)

WinS said:


> No. GMVS is replacing their Poma, and it will come down further but will not change trail openings or closings.



Win I noticed that the new T-bar will cross both the entrance and exit of Semi-Tough. How will skiers access and exit Semi-Tough when the T-bar is running? There was no mention of trail work in the Act 250 filing - is there enough room skiers right of T-bar to get into and out of Semi-Tough? Thanks.


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## tumbler (Sep 17, 2019)

slatham said:


> Win I noticed that the new T-bar will cross both the entrance and exit of Semi-Tough. How will skiers access and exit Semi-Tough when the T-bar is running? There was no mention of trail work in the Act 250 filing - is there enough room skiers right of T-bar to get into and out of Semi-Tough? Thanks.



see above


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## slatham (Sep 17, 2019)

tumbler said:


> see above



If you mean "will not change trail openings or closings" I am curious as to how that happens with a T-bar running? I presume skiers dodging running T's is not the answer.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2019)

It sounds like you scoped it out and know the answer already.  Either way it should not affect you.  Just cut around the lift and access the trail.  Don't let silly rules get in your way.  LOL


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## cdskier (Sep 17, 2019)

slatham said:


> If you mean "will not change trail openings or closings" I am curious as to how that happens with a T-bar running? I presume skiers dodging running T's is not the answer.



I'm more interested in the plan for the exit vs the entrance. I think there's enough room along side the proposed T Bar for the entrance to Semi-Tough. Looking at the various documents and drawings, the T seems to cross right over the exit for Semi-Tough (which is also the exit for Walt's). In the drawings it didn't look like there was much room to squeeze around the lift shack and lower terminal.


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## 1dog (Sep 17, 2019)

And we can still dream of opening up vertical above Inverness - south facing I know, but trees left everywhere shade snow cover - and Ext Woods have some of the best terrain up there. You gotta admit, as much as the unseen improvements are all needed and appreciated, some new terrain would be just great for all. Snow flies in 2 months.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 19, 2019)

1dog said:


> You gotta admit, as much as the unseen improvements are all needed and appreciated, some new terrain would be just great for all.


  No need to fix what ain't broken.....go ski Slidebrook.


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## 1dog (Sep 19, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> No need to fix what ain't broken.....go ski Slidebrook.



Slidebrook - I'm a little bored with SB and the bus lines frankly - and then there are the bus lines - because it's now a regular trail network without a lift.

And did I mention bus lines?

great terrain coming in from Rim Run too. . . . .but then there are bus lines. . . . .


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## Newpylong (Sep 19, 2019)

There is so much terrain at the Bush there really is no need to expand.


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## 1dog (Sep 19, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> There is so much terrain at the Bush there really is no need to expand.



You're actually correct on that statement - but 37 years later - I'm being a selfish-need-gratification-American.

Still love to hike to stuff where ' if we take you, we're gonna have to kill you' terrain, but hasn't it been a long time since any new terrain - sans santified woods- were open? 

I skied a few NH mountains on a trip to a friends place and discovered all these woods and lifts that weren't there years ago - granted - I'm a VT snow-snob who knows we get better and more copious snow than any other NE area. ( Don't tell me Jay - they have nice woods that are lift-serviced- but it ain't da 'Bush)

Just recall as a 5 or 10 year skier the excitement and anticipation of any new terrain that was announced in the late 80's early 90's. Drew lots of interest. And yeah, I get it, don't come here - its ours - I do undertand that. 

lets hope Epic/Ikon/MC users go elsewhere more often. . . . . 

The fall anticipation never wanes for skiers who love the woods and the snow, does it?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2019)

Definitely hear you on how exciting all the development during the 80s and 90s was.

Only thing major in recent years has been Mittersill at Cannon, South Peak at Loon and Green Peak at Waterville.  Suppose Cascade Basin at Pat's as well.  

Would be nice to see a bit more of that. 

Maybe we get Sunapee West soon or Pinnacle at Ragged. 

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## ss20 (Sep 19, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Definitely hear you on how exciting all the development during the 80s and 90s was.
> 
> Only thing major in recent years has been Mittersill at Cannon, South Peak at Loon and Green Peak at Waterville.  Suppose Cascade Basin at Pat's as well.
> 
> ...



All ok examples but, imo, the last time a mountain truly went BIG was Okemo's Jackson Gore in the mid 00s.  2 hsq's, new base lodge, and a crapload of buildings, parking lots, and support infrastructure.


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## 1dog (Sep 20, 2019)

ss20 said:


> All ok examples but, imo, the last time a mountain truly went BIG was Okemo's Jackson Gore in the mid 00s.  2 hsq's, new base lodge, and a crapload of buildings, parking lots, and support infrastructure.



Oh please - not that - while we all like to spend SV's cash, other than a large mid-mountain lodge say - at the junction of SB/NL/GH lifts - and maybe a refurbed Mellen lodge, just a $5M lift serving some terrain that is higher up, shaded, but east/southeast facing ( think CR like) we don't need a whole separate area.

I like the old Mt Ellen lodge - the deck is great - the 60's feel still there, but there's a crowd now, who doesn't care about past glories and expects/wants shiny and new - think there was a song about them in the late 80's ' Shiny Happy People'.

But since we're on the subject - Allyns is just too small for a large area - same with Walts. I know they have plans. . . . . . patience pays off . . . . .


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## STREETSKIER (Sep 20, 2019)

Tons of new terrain try the backside for fresh lines  no waiting for bus.     Just leave a car over there  go get it  or ski bumps in slide  I would like to do tacos at the bus stop and maybe lattes. 


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## Hawk (Sep 20, 2019)

The back side is no joke if you do not know where you are going and do not have the right back county gear.  There are cliffs, gullys, large thickets of dense trees and in some places as much as a mile of flat terrain before you hit a road.  Do not send people out there.


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## 1dog (Sep 20, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The back side is no joke if you do not know where you are going and do not have the right back county gear.  There are cliffs, gullys, large thickets of dense trees and in some places as much as a mile of flat terrain before you hit a road.  Do not send people out there.



Hawk is correct - been there a few times, got lost a couple - Jerusalem is not a straight-forward , easy-to-navigate route.

Best kept to experienced folks and those who aren't - find someone who knows to take/guide you.

As the ol K-Mart signs used to say ' these mountains are as cold and lonely as they were 200 years ago - do not ski alone.'


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## STREETSKIER (Sep 21, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The back side is no joke if you do not know where you are going and do not have the right back county gear.  There are cliffs, gullys, large thickets of dense trees and in some places as much as a mile of flat terrain before you hit a road.  Do not send people out there.



Sounds killer


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## AbominableSnowman (Sep 29, 2019)

Haven't heard a peep from the Sugarbush folks about the bees' nests this year; are they building them low on the towers, high on the towers, or are they building them up in Stowe, where they can get a higher rate-of-return when they rent them out over the winter?

The fear is that if the marketing staff doesn't mention the nests, they aren't high [the nests aren't high, that is - no idea about the marketing staff:-D)


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## Hawk (Sep 30, 2019)

I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.

One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.


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## skiur (Sep 30, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.
> 
> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.




This is the internet, start the speculation!!


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 30, 2019)

Epic!?!?


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## ss20 (Sep 30, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.
> 
> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.



Fan guns and a high-speed six on Castlerock.  You heard it here first folks.


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## djd66 (Sep 30, 2019)

I love it,... spreading rumors about possible rumors.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Hawk said:


> I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.
> 
> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.



???

Yeah, you can’t leave us hanging....


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## Newpylong (Sep 30, 2019)

Slidebrook replaced with a Peak 2 Peak, you heard it first!


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## Dickc (Sep 30, 2019)

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=785


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## 1dog (Sep 30, 2019)

Dickc said:


> https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=785



Thats old news - so maybe the lift that was supposed to be cut above Inverness is happening!  

Or buses no longer picking up at SB lot, or hot chocolate is going to $11, or maybe SV is selling condos half price? Whatever it is, truth, fable or 'fake ski news', there will always be unhappy people because of something that changes, or doesn't.

Why do I think the Ikons and Epics will lure skiers to other areas for less than the price of a season pass at SB?  We have 4 openings at our house and this has been the slowest traffic we've ever had for inquiries?  Running houses since 1984, since '94 at SB. If it lowers traffic on weekends, those of us w passes and kids in programs won't mind too much. . . . . .  

3 or 4 of my regular ski buds who are up no less than 3 or 4 weekends a year now have Ikons - ostensibly thats less at our hill.

Either way these passes are disrupters somewhat like Airbnb and Uber, but may not be a permanent fixture.

We're all hanging on threads Hawk . . . .


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## slatham (Sep 30, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



ss20 said:


> Fan guns and a high-speed six on Castlerock.  You heard it here first folks.



And here I was thinking it would be something that would change the character of the mountain! 

But seriously Hawk, clue us in.


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2019)

bees will become extinct and we will no longer have fruits and veggies?


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## rtjcbrown (Oct 1, 2019)

Hawk said:


> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.



I remember doing that back in grammar school. "I've got a secret, I've got a secret. But I'm not gonna tell you".


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## tumbler (Oct 1, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.
> 
> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.



If you are not going to tell the rumor, then tell us who will be unhappy.


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## TheArchitect (Oct 1, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't know about bee's nests but if apples are any indication of how severe the winter will be then we are in business.  Lots of apple up in the valley.
> 
> One thing that was troubling to me is the rumors I have been hearing.  I'm not sure if anybody else heard them and I am not going to say anything here and now because at this point it is just a rumor.  But if they are true then there is going to be some unhappy people.



Aww, you can't leave us hanging!  How about sending PM's and swearing to secrecy?


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## tumbler (Oct 1, 2019)

Or let's start speculating...Mt Ellen closed Mon- Thurs.


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## NYDB (Oct 1, 2019)

Unlimited Ikon 

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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 1, 2019)

oo baby, if thats the case im pumped. i know it can cause shit-showiness, but the lack of a full season pass destination closer than tremblant is ikon's big negative vs epic, especially now that okemo, stowe, snow, hunter, and wildcat are all full season passes for them. 

id spend almost all my time at mount ellen where the crowding never struck me as an issue last year. i also vastly prefer the terrain


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## 1dog (Oct 1, 2019)

Im a huge fan of Mellen - same w terrain and lack of crowds. just colder and windier. Sowith Ikon you get 7 days but at aformentioned resorts with Epic its full season at all? That should create even more competition. Have a customer who has a house at Sunapee - so he gets all those included for unlimited with Epic?


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 1, 2019)

epic local:
unlimited at most
unlimited with blackouts at some (stowe)
10 days with blackouts (vail, bc, whistler)
2 days at sun valley, snowbasin
5 days japan
50% off on blackout dates

i just learned that the only option that includes fernie and kicking horse is the full epic pass, and that its only 7 days combined at all teh RCR resorts. 

by adding all the peaks places as full season passes, that's gotta light a fire under ikon to compete, and tremblant doesnt cut the mustard for this. i dont care for the peaks places, save for wildcat which is too far for me to go to very much, so peaks doesnt make me pine for epic, but i love it if it means ikon's next salvo in the pass wars is unlimited sugarbush.

i do hope that the peaks/epic merger makes epic the generally more crowded options in the east.


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## Zand (Oct 1, 2019)

Even better would be unlimited Powdr resorts as well. Then add Jay next year. Jay/Sugarbush/Killington>>>>>>Epic.


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## JimG. (Oct 1, 2019)

Zand said:


> Even better would be unlimited Powdr resorts as well. Then add Jay next year. Jay/Sugarbush/Killington>>>>>>Epic.



Bite your tongue.

Wait until one of these mega owners goes bankrupt and 25 ski hills close down at once. That'll be great, huh?


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## ss20 (Oct 1, 2019)

You know it's near ski season when the AZ community comes up with the following rumors...

Vail is closing Wildcat midweek
Mt Ellen will be closed midweek
K/Pico interconnect is happening
MRG and Smuggs should close midweek
Everyone including my aunt wants to buy Jay Peak


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## Zand (Oct 1, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Bite your tongue.
> 
> Wait until one of these mega owners goes bankrupt and 25 ski hills close down at once. That'll be great, huh?




ASC went belly up and they all came out okay. A company like Vail isn't going belly up any time soon because they keep their spending under control. And other than Alterra and mini-groups like Boyne, there aren't any large mega owners for any of the Ikon resorts.


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## JimG. (Oct 1, 2019)

Zand said:


> ASC went belly up and they all came out okay. A company like Vail isn't going belly up any time soon because they keep their spending under control. And other than Alterra and mini-groups like Boyne, there aren't any large mega owners for any of the Ikon resorts.



I would hate to see resorts like Killington or Sugarbush become unlimited access on any mega pass. The 7 day limited access on Ikon is bad enough.

Eventually season passholders at resorts that offer mega pass access will start to resent the added skier traffic. Especially since they get nothing in return. Many think that condo owners won't stop buying passes or that skiers won't sever social ties to move elsewhere. My experience says otherwise...you can abuse the golden goose only so long before it stops laying golden eggs. 

I doubt Killington or Sugarbush is going to go so far as to alienate their loyal season passholders.


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## EPB (Oct 1, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Vail is closing Wildcat midweek
> Mt Ellen will be closed midweek
> MRG and Smuggs should close midweek



Not rumors - merely suggesting what are likely rational moves. I'd love to know how many AZers ski their favorite areas on non-holiday Wednesdays (and if so, how many days). My guess is save for a handful of retired people, quite few. People on here acting like it would actually affect their lives to see their favorite place close on Wednesdays cracks me up.


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## urungus (Oct 1, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Eventually season passholders at resorts that offer mega pass access will start to resent the added skier traffic. Especially since they get nothing in return.



Don’t they now get to ski for free at all the other resorts on the mega-pass?  For instance, someone with a Mt Snow (Peak) season pass will now be able to ski at Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee.  Not to mention all the western resorts on the pass.


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## urungus (Oct 1, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd love to know how many AZers ski their favorite areas on non-holiday Wednesdays (and if so, how many days). My guess is save for a handful of retired people, quite few. People on here acting like it would actually affect their lives to see their favorite place close on Wednesdays cracks me up.



I ski every Wednesday in Jan and Feb at Berkshire East as a chaperone for my kids elementary school ski program.


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## thebigo (Oct 1, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Not rumors - merely suggesting what are likely rational moves. I'd love to know how many AZers ski their favorite areas on non-holiday Wednesdays (and if so, how many days). My guess is save for a handful of retired people, quite few. People on here acting like it would actually affect their lives to see their favorite place close on Wednesdays cracks me up.



I work from home in central NH. 1 - 2 days midweek I head up to wildcat for first chair, ski as many runs as possible until around noon then head home, if wildcat is just groomers or limited by wind I get my daughter off the bus and head to the crotch for night skiing. I would absolutely steer my family's ski budget  somewhere else if either wildcat or the crotch closed midweek - no question.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Not rumors - merely suggesting what are likely rational moves. I'd love to know how many AZers ski their favorite areas on non-holiday Wednesdays (and if so, how many days). My guess is save for a handful of retired people, quite few. People on here acting like it would actually affect their lives to see their favorite place close on Wednesdays cracks me up.


I can tell you when I worked in the service industry for 15 years, the answer was basically every week.  Midweek was my weekend.  Ski country economies are dominated by service industry jobs. So, you are going to piss off a lot of locals. All those locals are the ambassadors for the local hill and offer first hand information on conditions on the local hills when the weekend crowd arrives.

  I now work in healthcare. A lot of my customers work weekends in that industry too.  Yes, obviously the traffic is limited midweek, but I just again think it's pennywise for major resorts that are already profitable to be contracting services.  Small local hills that struggle ?  sure. Sugarbush type place? I'm not rooting for contraction. 

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## tumbler (Oct 2, 2019)

If it is Unlimited IKON then there will be a lot of pissed off people.  Saturdays were a zoo at South.  I can hear it now "the lift system really spreads people out and has more capacity."  Been there for over 20 years and last year were the longest lift lines I can remember seeing.  If they are going to bring more people in, then they need to beef up the lift capacity- especially gatehouse for the beginners and to get to slide brook lift, more seats to get food at both mountains and better busing between the two base areas.  And probably more toilets- see A-Basin.

Edit: I would be surprised if this happened with all the independent ski area ownership championing Win has done over the past few years


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## EPB (Oct 2, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I can tell you when I worked in the service industry for 15 years, the answer was basically every week.  Midweek was my weekend.  Ski country economies are dominated by service industry jobs. So, you are going to piss off a lot of locals. All those locals are the ambassadors for the local hill and offer first hand information on conditions on the local hills when the weekend crowd arrives.
> 
> I now work in healthcare. A lot of my customers work weekends in that industry too.  Yes, obviously the traffic is limited midweek, but I just again think it's pennywise for major resorts that are already profitable to be contracting services.  Small local hills that struggle ?  sure. Sugarbush type place? I'm not rooting for contraction.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I hear you and really don't want to drag this into multiple threads. I got called out for rumor mongering and wanted to set the record straight - that's a blatant misread of what I said in the Saddleback thread.

My family is made up of mostly medical professionals, so I'm well aware that not everyone works Mon-Fri like me. I've also indicated that without data, this is a hard issue to truly know anything about - it's more a gut feel. The mere facts that the decision to open for the day creates an observable fixed cost commitment (with limited incremental revenue opportunities via day ticket sales) and that non-resort areas seem to do just fine on limited operating schedules suggest that the economic engine behind ski resort operations are weekend and holiday crowds. 

Every place is a unique circumstance, and I've been happy to incorporate many legitimate points along the way from you and others. The finer points on where we disagree should be obvious at this point, which Is perfectly fine. That said, I'm done with this particular discussion, which I'm my estimation, has become too big for its britches and no longer worth the time.


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## JimG. (Oct 2, 2019)

urungus said:


> Don’t they now get to ski for free at all the other resorts on the mega-pass?  For instance, someone with a Mt Snow (Peak) season pass will now be able to ski at Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee.  Not to mention all the western resorts on the pass.



What does a Killington passholder get? We get to ski K and Pico, that's it. Which is fine by me.

But frankly, I don't want a lot of megapass freeloaders skiing at K for 7 days a season and get nothing in return. 

So, K would stand to lose me as a customer. What is the benefit to me?


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## cdskier (Oct 2, 2019)

urungus said:


> Don’t they now get to ski for free at all the other resorts on the mega-pass?  For instance, someone with a Mt Snow (Peak) season pass will now be able to ski at Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee.  Not to mention all the western resorts on the pass.





JimG. said:


> What does a Killington passholder get? We get to ski K and Pico, that's it. Which is fine by me.
> 
> But frankly, I don't want a lot of megapass freeloaders skiing at K for 7 days a season and get nothing in return.
> 
> So, K would stand to lose me as a customer. What is the benefit to me?



Yea...Ikon and Epic are two very different scenarios (even though they are both mega passes). 

Epic is mostly comprised of resorts actually owned by Vail (A-Basin was a notable exception to this before they left Epic). For the most part once a resort is integrated into Vail's portfolio there is no longer a standalone pass for that resort (i.e. no Stowe only pass or Okemo only pass) and the passholder at that resort has no choice but to purchase Epic (and thereby gets the benefits urungus refers to).

Ikon however is a combination of some resorts owned by Alterra and some independent resorts that still have their own passes (i.e. Killington and Sugarbush, etc). So for a place like K or SB to allow unlimited Ikon usage, there would be no benefits to the standalone K or SB passholders  (to Jim's point) and you would think they would only allow unlimited usage if the resort itself was actually purchased by Alterra. Otherwise I don't particularly know it would make much sense (for either Alterra or the partner/independent resort). For example the SB standalone pass is not substantially different from the Ikon pass in terms of price. If Ikon offered unlimited SB access, that would cut into SB's own standalone season pass sales as why would people get an SB pass when for a similar price they could get Ikon and get unlimited SB plus access to other resorts.

It would be nice to know what the rumor Hawk was talking about was instead of all this wild speculation now running rampant. Saying you heard a rumor and giving no details might actually be worse than sharing the rumor itself even if it was found to be untrue.


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## JimG. (Oct 2, 2019)

Good clarification I should have used the term "Ikon" instead of "Mega".

For me this is really just a good conversation because if K allowed unlimited access to Ikon passholders I would simply switch to a weekday K pass and ditch weekends altogether in VT. That would be if they continued to offer the midweek pass.
​
It makes little sense for K or SB to go unlimited Ikon but that does not mean it won't happen ever or that perhaps megapass mountains owned by one entity would not close midweek/midweek days at certain portfolio hills. That kind of crap is a direct shot at the season passholder. Eventually a percentage will walk.


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## NYDB (Oct 2, 2019)

JimG. said:


> What does a Killington passholder get? We get to ski K and Pico, that's it. Which is fine by me.
> 
> But frankly, I don't want a lot of megapass freeloaders skiing at K for 7 days a season and get nothing in return.
> 
> So, K would stand to lose me as a customer. What is the benefit to me?



Speaking as a megapass freeloader, Isn't that already happening?


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## WinS (Oct 2, 2019)

AbominableSnowman said:


> Haven't heard a peep from the Sugarbush folks about the bees' nests this year; are they building them low on the towers, high on the towers, or are they building them up in Stowe, where they can get a higher rate-of-return when they rent them out over the winter?
> 
> The fear is that if the marketing staff doesn't mention the nests, they aren't high [the nests aren't high, that is - no idea about the marketing staff:-D)



Our master groomer sent me a photo of a nest high in his apple tree. He also said that the "old timers say with the plentiful apple season 
that is also a sign of a good snow year."


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## djd66 (Oct 2, 2019)

WinS said:


> Our master groomer sent me a photo of a nest high in his apple tree. He also said that the "old timers say with the plentiful apple season
> that is also a sign of a good snow year."



Win -

Can you please clear up the rumor of a rumor that there are some changes happening this season?


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## urungus (Oct 2, 2019)

JimG. said:


> What does a Killington passholder get? We get to ski K and Pico, that's it. Which is fine by me.
> 
> But frankly, I don't want a lot of megapass freeloaders skiing at K for 7 days a season and get nothing in return.
> 
> So, K would stand to lose me as a customer. What is the benefit to me?



The benefit to you is that your pass will most likely cost less and you would be able to ski other resorts for free.  If Killington were to go unlimited Ikon, then you would buy an Ikon pass instead of a Killington pass, most likely for less money.  Then you would still be able to ski all year at Killington, plus you would be able to go to all the other resorts on the pass.  Isn’t that what happened at Stratton when they went unlimited Ikon?  Their season passes used to be well over $1k ...


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## Hawk (Oct 2, 2019)

Ok then, since Win is now here I guess I can ask him directly.

This past weekend I had more than one local say that your time of owning Sugarbush might be coming to an end soon.  I do not know the exact reason they thought this but they were sad about it.   Is there any truth to this?

I really hope this is not true.  I think that your body of work here has greatly exceeded expectations and there so much more to be done.


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## JimG. (Oct 2, 2019)

urungus said:


> The benefit to you is that your pass will most likely cost less and you would be able to ski other resorts for free.  If Killington were to go unlimited Ikon, then you would buy an Ikon pass instead of a Killington pass, most likely for less money.  Then you would still be able to ski all year at Killington, plus you would be able to go to all the other resorts on the pass.  Isn’t that what happened at Stratton when they went unlimited Ikon?  Their season passes used to be well over $1k ...



I paid 1K for my Killington/Pico pass. I consider that a good value considering where I live and my proximity to K (less than 3.5 hrs). I supplement that with a NYS 3 in 1 so I get Catskills access at Belleayre and Gore/Whiteface in the Daks. 

I'm an eastern skier. No interest in getting on a plane to go ski. I can ski whenever I want so I don't need to roll the dice and hope for powder out west. I see the logic, really I do. I don't need to do that. Lucky I guess.

Ikon doesn't work for me the way it is set up. The only other resort in the east I want to ski is Sugarbush. But I need unlimited access to one of those, preferably K it's an hour closer to home. Sugarloaf and Sunday River are just too far away for me.

And there you have it. So I guess I might save a little if K goes unlimited, and I might ski at Sugarbush a few times. But no pressing incentive for me to switch.


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## tumbler (Oct 3, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Ok then, since Win is now here I guess I can ask him directly.
> 
> This past weekend I had more than one local say that your time of owning Sugarbush might be coming to an end soon.  I do not know the exact reason they thought this but they were sad about it.   Is there any truth to this?
> 
> I really hope this is not true.  I think that your body of work here has greatly exceeded expectations and there so much more to be done.



The silence is telling.  I did some asking and got the same answer.  If it is true, a great run and legacy left.


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## cdskier (Oct 3, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Ok then, since Win is now here I guess I can ask him directly.
> 
> This past weekend I had more than one local say that your time of owning Sugarbush might be coming to an end soon.  I do not know the exact reason they thought this but they were sad about it.   Is there any truth to this?
> 
> I really hope this is not true.  I think that your body of work here has greatly exceeded expectations and there so much more to be done.



This would make me sad as well if true. Agree 110% with your last statement too.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 3, 2019)

Maybe we'll learn more from Win's Community Day presentation on Oct 12th


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## phin (Oct 7, 2019)

*crickets* yikes *crickets*


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## TheArchitect (Oct 7, 2019)

Is anyone really surprised that Win hasn't answered a question related to his ownership?  If I was him I wouldn't touch questions like that with a 10' ski pole.

As for the rumors/speculation, if SB is sold then I imagine it's to Alterra.  I'm sure they're looking to respond to VR's acquisition of Peak Resorts.  A announcement of purchasing SB...and more speculation....Jay Peak, sure would do that.

Anyway, if the speculation is true and Win IS selling Sugarbush then I have nothing but thanks and best wishes to him.  My favorite resort in NE and it's not close.


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## 1dog (Oct 7, 2019)

Amen

And he has partners who have a say too - and frankly its been a great ride, and the place and regulars have benefited - so has the entire MRV.

Lets speculate some more. . . .  if you had a place you loved, but your not 50 and someone offers you 3x/5x what you paid or what it's worth. You do whats best for you and your family. 

Its a business - and if he is able, he'll have covenants to ensure similar operation to protect the experience. If not, we've have 18 years of care.

snow will still fly - and hey, change happens.


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## BlueBirdayz (Oct 7, 2019)

Hope this is not a cycle-ASC buys from individual owners (hope we survive, almost don’t) — individuals buy — Alterra buys — ?


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## 1dog (Oct 8, 2019)

BlueBirdayz said:


> Hope this is not a cycle-ASC buys from individual owners (hope we survive, almost don’t) — individuals buy — Alterra buys — ?



Right - but it takes so much capital, and the liability of operations on one area - the economies of scale - legal and environmental regulations make it near impossible to operate with a margin. Real estate too - limits the market when there are no more affordable options - 

Guess if your Leon Hess - and you need a loss on a small part of your portfolio to balance taxable gains in other areas - you can spend like he did at Snowbasin - return or no return. He at least got the Olympics there. 

Just remember this - large companies come and go ( how many Dow components from 1930 are still there today?) but government grows and grows. . . .


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## Hawk (Oct 8, 2019)

Look, I was just struck by this news and wanted to know.  I have no idea if he is even considering selling.  But...Considering that Win has always been really proud that Sugarbush is one of the few remaining resorts that are privately and individually owned, I doubt that Alterra would be the obvious choice.    Just saying that shows a complete misunderstanding of what Sugarbush had been all about for the last 18 years.  It would really surprise me if he just dumped off the resort to some big ski operation in a cash grab.  He does not seem to be that type of person to me.
I have really enjoyed the ride over the last 18 years.  He has done some great things.  I know I have done my share of complaining but it was always around the snow making.  I have finally realized it has never been about that like other resorts.  I am good with it now.  The rest has been excellent in my opinion.


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## TheArchitect (Oct 8, 2019)

Well, I said I imagine it would be to Alterra but I didn't mean to imply it's the obvious choice.  Given how Vail and Alterra have been buying up mountains I'm sure _they'd_ be interested in buying, even if Win wasn't interested in selling to a big operation.  I don't follow the business side closely enough to know who other perspective buyers could be, if it's even up for sale.

It's all speculation anyway while we wait for the snow to fall...


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## slatham (Oct 8, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Look, I was just struck by this news and wanted to know.  I have no idea if he is even considering selling.  But...Considering that Win has always been really proud that Sugarbush is one of the few remaining resorts that are privately and individually owned, I doubt that Alterra would be the obvious choice.    Just saying that shows a complete misunderstanding of what Sugarbush had been all about for the last 18 years.  It would really surprise me if he just dumped off the resort to some big ski operation in a cash grab.  He does not seem to be that type of person to me.
> I have really enjoyed the ride over the last 18 years.  He has done some great things.  I know I have done my share of complaining but it was always around the snow making.  I have finally realized it has never been about that like other resorts.  I am good with it now.  The rest has been excellent in my opinion.



I agree. Too much personal and family history and connection to pass the Sugarbush legacy along to a yet another ski area conglomerate. Perhaps there is someone as passionate and dedicated to an independent Sugarbush who is part of Summit Ventures? Or is brought in?  Or maybe Win just wants to step back and not be THE man anymore (aka Chairman, not President?) but still maintains ownership? Rank speculation. But a sell out? I don't see it.


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## machski (Oct 8, 2019)

While Alterra is a big ski resort conglomerate, they do business quite differently inside their company than Vail does.  There is a lot of Independence in managing each resort or group of resorts (All the Aspen resorts are part of Alterra but they are not unlimited days on any Ikon as an example) that Vail does not do itself.  Of Win were to sell to one of the big groups, I would think Alterra would fit the idea of Sugarbush as a unique, singular product within a mix better than any other.  It is conceivable that Alterra might even keep it limited days on the Ikon were they to buy it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Hawk (Oct 8, 2019)

machski said:


> While Alterra is a big ski resort conglomerate, they do business quite differently inside their company than Vail does.  There is a lot of Independence in managing each resort or group of resorts (All the Aspen resorts are part of Alterra but they are not unlimited days on any Ikon as an example) that Vail does not do itself.  Of Win were to sell to one of the big groups, I would think Alterra would fit the idea of Sugarbush as a unique, singular product within a mix better than any other.  It is conceivable that Alterra might even keep it limited days on the Ikon were they to buy it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


Mach, they all suck.  Don't try to put lipstick on a pig around here.  I basically left SR because the big company ruined what was a perfect place for years.  And from what I see Boyne is not much better.  We have a special place here at Sugarbush.  So much so we have never look back.  No thanks.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 8, 2019)

Maybe the prices for tickets and meals will become more reasonable. Probably not, the only major difference I've noticed under current ownership are price hikes. In the 80s and 90s Sugarbush certainly had a more "top tier" image as a major destination resort with ultimate eastern skiing. I guess that role is now filled exclusively by western resorts and perhaps Stowe.

But as a mountain that currently sells walk-up weekend tickets at around $120, I'm OK with a change in ownership if that's the case. Obscene.


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## Hawk (Oct 8, 2019)

They are not $120 ever.  Not if you go on line and buy them.  And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area.  they are all close to that price now.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 8, 2019)

Hawk said:


> They are not $120 ever.  Not if you go on line and buy them.  And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area.  they are all close to that price now.



Well they are $120 if you walk up on a weekend and over $100 weekdays, maybe more or a couple $ less, but it's close either way.

I would say the same about Killington and Stowe. Okemo is right up there too now. Jay Peak is about $30 cheaper which IMO is a fair price to charge especially considering how others have broken the triple digit barrier.

Sugarbush, Killington and Jay I use 50% off passes and have for years. Stowe I use Ski VT passes.

Sometimes the topic comes up of "underserved populations" and their "access to the sport of skiing". Guess what, these are the same folks who simply drive up to a ski area and pay full price because they haven't been initiated into the art of getting deals for the season, as many of us do. I'm OK paying $60 to ski Sugarbush but the idea that some poor sap and his girlfriend just paid $120 each, and they took a few beginner runs before calling it quits... not a good situation!

Seems to me Eastern skiers should all rally around the concept of keeping tickets in the double digits. Or do we need more Hermitage Clubs?

edit: Yeah Jay Peak is $89 walk up rate this year. Up from $78 last I checked. So $30 cheaper than the Stowe/Sugar/Killington roughly.


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## machski (Oct 8, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Mach, they all suck.  Don't try to put lipstick on a pig around here.  I basically left SR because the big company ruined what was a perfect place for years.  And from what I see Boyne is not much better.  We have a special place here at Sugarbush.  So much so we have never look back.  No thanks.


Hawk, I'm not advocating Alterra buy it.  I like what I've skied at SB under Win.  But IF Win were to sell, Alterra would IMHO be the most likely to keep SB as close to as it is now.  Hopefully we won't have to contend with any of that.  Boyne may finally be turning the corner, we'll see for sure in a few more years.

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## cdskier (Oct 8, 2019)

Hawk said:


> They are not $120 ever.  Not if you go on line and buy them.  And I guess you would say the same thing about Killington, Stowe, Jay and any other ski major ski area.  they are all close to that price now.



Seriously...in this day and age of technology I can't really feel too bad for people that pay full price when there are so many ways to save money between Quad packs or even simply ordering online. Don't get me wrong, I think day ticket prices in general are too high across the industry as a whole, but Sugarbush is in line with their peers so it is hard to argue they should offer significantly cheaper tickets than those other resorts.

And the flip side of this high day ticket price thing is that season passes have actually come DOWN in price over the years. The resort does need to make money somehow in order to stay alive and be able to re-invest in the mountain. You can't have cheap prices AND expect constant upgrades to lifts, snowmaking, and other infrastructure.

Personally I had my cost per day at SB last year down to under $15 a day (and I'm primarily a weekend-only skier). Really hard to complain about that...

As for the high cost of food that tuna mentioned, I really don't find them out of line with other resorts there either. Cafeterias in general are a rip-off. Places like the Castlerock pub however are actually quite reasonably priced. A burger at CRP will cost you about the same as anywhere else in the valley.

Edit: and if someone wants cheap day skiing at Sugarbush, get a ME only ticket. Walk up they are $78 weekends and can be had in the 50s on weekends purchasing online in advance. Or $30 walk up on Thursdays at ME...


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## 1dog (Oct 8, 2019)

opinions are like nostrils - everyones got a couple - and prices are what the market will bear. As mentioned, you can't have reinvested capital if you don't have any. Unlike other short-lived companies, SV won't do debt ( exception some small EB-5 for the condo thing). 
If they were public, bet they'd have a more solid balance sheet than most larger solo operations in ski country.

If you have cut-rate prices, you'll have crowds. If you go the other way, ( Stowe walk up %159 last I heard) you might STILL have crowds because of Mass Pass Craze. 

The deals give more people access to try more areas  - if and when the dust settles, more may chose MRV to settle in and become a weekend local for all the reasons we're all here. 

Its never going to be a cheap sport - and this type thing may help it grow since feeder hills are MIA.  

Anyone have a Farmers or Old Farmers Almanac prediction? I always take the coldest, snowiest as gospel. 

Anticipation is almost as good as the real thing. Foreplay. Snow on the Presidentials anyway.


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## Hawk (Oct 9, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Well they are $120 if you walk up on a weekend and over $100 weekdays, maybe more or a couple $ less, but it's close either way.
> 
> I would say the same about Killington and Stowe. Okemo is right up there too now. Jay Peak is about $30 cheaper which IMO is a fair price to charge especially considering how others have broken the triple digit barrier.
> 
> ...



I guess I am just not that kind of skier to relate to the dilemma of the person that walks up to the window, not knowing all the options and just buying full price.  Who does that?  Well unless they are wealthy and really don't give a F@#$.  I ski Sugarbush for $25 a day, I can ski any day I want and I can ski at 7:30am Saturdays, Sundays and Holiday weeks.  Not bad if you ask me.
Actually and Additionally...Skiing is a privilege and not a right.  It is priced as the market goes.  I made sacrifices and cut cost else ware to subsidize my skiing addiction. This is what you have to do if you want to ski a lot when you are young and poor.  The ski areas do not owe us cheaper prices.  If you ask me the areas are staring to get overrun by the cheap ticket deals.  I can't wait until it all falls down and pricing goes up.  It will cut down on the numbers.  Hopefully.  ;-)


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## crazy (Oct 9, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Seriously...in this day and age of technology I can't really feel too bad for people that pay full price when there are so many ways to save money between Quad packs or even simply ordering online.





Hawk said:


> I guess I am just not that kind of skier to relate to the dilemma of the person that walks up to the window, not knowing all the options and just buying full price.  Who does that?



Count me in the group that doesn't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who pay walk-up rates. Skiing costs a ton of money. That's always been true, be it today, 10 years ago, or 30 years ago. I do not think that very many people from "underserved populations" are skiing, period. Whether or not you are paying a lot for a lift ticket, skiing requires expensive equipment and transportation, both of which cost way more than a few lift tickets if you're skiing for the first time, or only ski a couple of days a season.

For those without a lot of money, all it costs is a little bit of time to figure out how to get rates that are much better than the walk-up rates. Just buying tickets in advance on the resort webpages saves money. Using Liftopia saves money. With a bit more time, you can discover deals like the Ski VT 4-pack or the Fox44 card that save even more money. Or, better yet, if you know you're going to ski more than even a few times a season, get a season pass. The cost per visit can be very small. 

I've said this so many times but I have to keep saying it: if you are new to skiing, or you only want to ski a couple of times a year (likely this means your skill level isn't super high), ski at a small, independent resort! Instead of going to Sugarbush, a big fancy resort with a ton of vertical and lots of runs that you probably aren't capable of enjoying, go to Suicide Six. Or Cochran's. Or Bromley. Or Magic. It just doesn't make sense for a beginner to go somewhere like Killington, or Sugarbush, or Stowe over one of these smaller resorts, unless money isn't the paramount concern (as is the case for many skiers). 

Let's also be clear that high walk-up rates help subsidize season pass prices. What's incredible is that season pass prices across New England have mostly gone down over time, or come with much more value. Look at the price of a Stowe season pass now versus a few years ago. Or a Sugarbush or Cannon season pass. Not to mention the crazy value that is an Epic Pass or Ikon Pass. Now is an incredible time to be skiing. Your lift ticket $/day can be tiny very easily. Basically all skis and snowboards being manufactured now are of very high quality, so you can feel good about buying skis/snowboard from a few years ago and it will perform super well. 

In short, I know that walk-up rates are climbing much faster than inflation, but I believe that there is a bright side, and skiing as a whole is in a very good place now.


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## mister moose (Oct 9, 2019)

crazy said:


> For those without a lot of money, all it costs is a little bit of time to figure out how to get rates that are much better than the walk-up rates. ... ski at a small, independent resort! Instead of going to Sugarbush, a big fancy resort with a ton of vertical and lots of runs that you probably aren't capable of enjoying, go to Suicide Six. Or Cochran's. Or Bromley. Or Magic. It just doesn't make sense for a beginner to go somewhere like Killington, or Sugarbush, or Stowe over one of these smaller resorts, unless money isn't the paramount concern (as is the case for many skiers).



Excellent post.  To which I'll add the large resorts sometimes have outrageous learn to ski packages.  Cheaper than the local mole hill, especially in January.  The equipment you get and instructor teaching you will likely be better than the mole hill.  So yes, after the initial introduction, continue to learn at Bousquet, Middlebury, Butternut (season pass right now $349!!!).  Skiing is expensive, but it doesn't have to be out of reach.


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## 1dog (Oct 9, 2019)

used to be ( and may well still be in effect) at Sugarbush - buy a 1st time ever ski lesson package - 3 or 4 lessons/rentals maybe? and get a season pass for rest of the year - a great deal.
my local ski shop has a seasonal lease equipment package for kids and they get a season pass at Bretton Woods free.

All kinds of ways. both posts make good arguments for those on a budget - and lets not forget about Waitsfield Schoo Ski Swap next month.  Hard to beat those deals.

I've been hearing how outrageous  skiing costs are since I started - its never changed. 
Same answer to the question ' why is divorce so expensive? - 'cause it's worth it.'


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## cdskier (Oct 9, 2019)

At least I can understand the argument about high costs for someone that just wants to enter the sport. Programs like 1dog mentions are great (and that Sugarbush one for older first timers does still exist last I checked), but I can understand that a true beginner may not even think to look for things like that and may just hear about how expensive day tickets are and be scared off without doing much research. We always complain that we need new people in the sport in order for it to be sustainable long term. So I do understand that high entry costs can be one factor that hurts growth potential.

I have far less sympathy for people that have been skiing for a long time and still expect to be able to ski a large resort with high costs for next to nothing. If you want to commit to a single resort (or group of resorts under one ownership roof), then you can buy a season pass and be rewarded for your loyalty with a low cost per day. The break-even point on passes is ridiculously low now compared to years ago.

If however you want to go to a different resort every week, then that person needs to be prepared to put in the work to find deals. I'm ok with resorts opting not to cater to that crowd via low walk-up ticket rates. Those people can go to smaller resorts with lower overhead that can get away with lower ticket rates if they don't want to plan ahead or look for deals. But to expect the large resorts to bend over backwards to cater to a crowd that wants to make a last minute decision on when to go and that may ultimately only visit once or twice a season seems a bit silly. For people that are visiting 4 or more days, you already have great deals like the SB Quad packs. If that deal isn't cheap enough then I really don't know what to say. There are certainly choices and options available.


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## Hawk (Oct 10, 2019)

I hope that everybody realizes that the larger resorts and the big conglomerates are raising the daily window prices to basically force people to consider season passes so they get their operating capital up front.  That is the main reason the window prices are up so much.  This is the industry trend that was created first by Vail.


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## cdskier (Oct 10, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I hope that everybody realizes that the larger resorts and the big conglomerates are raising the daily window prices to basically force people to consider season passes so they get their operating capital up front.  That is the main reason the window prices are up so much.  This is the industry trend that was created first by Vail.



And the strategy certainly makes sense. Can't say I blame the resorts for wanting to shift their revenue to more of a stable "guaranteed" up front amount rather than a far more variable amount when a higher percentage of your visits are day tickets vs passes.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2019)

1dog said:


> Guess if your Leon Hess - and you need a loss on a small part of your portfolio to balance taxable gains in other areas - you can spend like he did at Snowbasin - return or no return. He at least got the Olympics there.



Earl Holding, not Leon Hess, owned Sinclair and Snowbasin (and Sun Valley).  He was in both oil and resort/hospitality industries.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## 1dog (Oct 10, 2019)

cdskier said:


> And the strategy certainly makes sense. Can't say I blame the resorts for wanting to shift their revenue to more of a stable "guaranteed" up front amount rather than a far more variable amount when a higher percentage of your visits are day tickets vs passes.



Makes sense to me - and it also forces those who are on the fence to ski more - and the more you ski. . . . . .  it's like safe sex, one has to practice, practice, practice to improve.

That old stat of most middle of road skiers having 3-4 days a year out on slopes - well - I don't  golf but can't imagine improving on 4 days a year. 
If you have option to ski at say $50/$60$70 a day and get 10-12 in you're gonna improve and like it more.

And the stable income is easier to allocate properly.

I'm all for it if it helps grow the industry.


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## Smellytele (Oct 10, 2019)

Although when the big guys raise their walk up rate they also lower or keep low the season pass rate. The non Vail’s tend to only raise their daily tickets and not lower their season pass rates. Well at least not to the “epic” value.


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## Orca (Oct 10, 2019)

Summit Ventures would be perfectly justified in taking the best offer (most lucrative) should Sugarbush be sold.


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## mister moose (Oct 10, 2019)

I got to wondering how walk up tickets have increased vs inflation.  According to snowdaze, in 1996 a Killington window ticket was $49.  This was before E-tickets, before Epic Passes.  Dollartimes.com provides that a 1996 dollar is worth $1.64 now.  So a walk up ticket should cost an inflation adjusted $80.36.  Killington's peak walk up rate this season looks like $129.  Killington's advance discount K-ticket is.... drum roll please....   $79.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2019)

mister moose said:


> I got to wondering how walk up tickets have increased vs inflation.  According to snowdaze, in 1996 a Killington window ticket was $49.  This was before E-tickets, before Epic Passes.  Dollartimes.com provides that a 1996 dollar is worth $1.64 now.  So a walk up ticket should cost an inflation adjusted $80.36.  Killington's peak walk up rate this season looks like $129.  Killington's advance discount K-ticket is.... drum roll please....   $79.


How far in advance does that K ticket need to be purchased and is it date specific? 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tonyr (Oct 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> How far in advance does that K ticket need to be purchased and is it date specific?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



You could get them through Morgan Stanley's reserved program for $72 a day last year with no blackouts. We stayed an extra day at Killington last year and bought tickets the morning of at that price. 

Tony


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## cdskier (Oct 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> How far in advance does that K ticket need to be purchased and is it date specific?



The "K-Ticket" product at the $79 price is only available through October 17th, but is valid any date of the season. I used to buy them years ago when they were in the $50-55 range (before I made Sugarbush my home mountain).


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## WWF-VT (Oct 10, 2019)

Enough already about season ticket and day ticket pricing. 
 Isn't this thread about Sugarbush ?


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## Julius (Oct 10, 2019)

back on message.. (sorry, had to do it [emoji16]) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(pic taken Mar2018)


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## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Enough already about season ticket and day ticket pricing.
> Isn't this thread about Sugarbush ?



Yes - Sugarbush’s season pass and day ticket prices


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## JDMRoma (Oct 11, 2019)

Julius said:


> back on message.. (sorry, had to do it [emoji16])



That Holiday Rate is Awesome !


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## cdskier (Oct 11, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Although when the big guys raise their walk up rate they also lower or keep low the season pass rate. The non Vail’s tend to only raise their daily tickets and not lower their season pass rates. Well at least not to the “epic” value.





Smellytele said:


> Yes - Sugarbush’s season pass and day ticket prices



FWIW, Sugarbush did lower their season pass prices around the time Vail bought Stowe. Prior to that they also created an additional "30s" age bracket that benefited some people (my price was basically cut in half when that age bracket came out).

A full adult pass (at the early purchase price) was $300 less this season than it was for the 2016-2017 season.


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## mister moose (Oct 11, 2019)

Another ratio that's changed … look at the half day rates.  $119 for any non holiday day, and $99 for a "half" day.  Half day rates were always more than half, but this is 83%.


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## crazy (Oct 11, 2019)

JDMRoma said:


> That Holiday Rate is Awesome !



I'm sensing some sarcasm here, but I want to reiterate what someone mentioned earlier in the thread: the tradeoff between price and crowds. Weather and price are the two most important factors in people's decisions to ski. If you make it cheaper to ski at a given time, more people will ski, and vice versa. I get annoyed when people complain about both crowding and prices - you can complain about one, but not both, because they're highly correlated with one another! Holidays are the most crowded times on the mountain, so why not raise prices to try and control crowds a bit? If higher prices lead to fewer crowds at peak times, it makes the experience for the people who did pay a little bit better. If you don't like crowds, or like low prices, go to the mountain when fewer people are going, i.e. on a Thursday at Mount Ellen :razz:



mister moose said:


> Another ratio that's changed … look at the half day rates.  $119 for any non holiday day, and $99 for a "half" day.  Half day rates were always more than half, but this is 83%.



Half day rates are always a lot more than half the cost of the full day rate for the same reason that a large popcorn only costs a buck more than a small popcorn at the movie theater. In essence, the resort is encouraging you via pricing to buy a full-day ticket because the cost to the resort of you skiing isn't proportional to the time you spend on the mountain. There are lots of fixed costs that go into opening the mountain for the day. 

(If there's any common thread to my responses in this thread on price, it's that I think Win and the team at Sugarbush are being totally fair when it comes to pricing.)


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## cdskier (Oct 11, 2019)

JDMRoma said:


> That Holiday Rate is Awesome !



To be fair though, if someone goes to a ski resort on a holiday and doesn't plan ahead, they get what they deserve with the high walk up rates.


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## rocks860 (Oct 11, 2019)

Looks like I’ll be up there this year from February 8-15


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## Orca (Oct 11, 2019)

All this fuss about ticket prices. We need a bigger solution. Much bigger. Universal skiing! Surely there must be a Democratic presidential candidate one-upping the field by advocating for a "free skiing for everyone" government program in a bid to win the free-stuff primary. Child care, college, guaranteed income, reparations, affordable housing, medicare for all -- don't stop there! -- FREE SKIING!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2019)

JDMRoma said:


> That Holiday Rate is Awesome !



$129 was Snowbird's holiday rate last season FWIW.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2019)

Orca said:


> All this fuss about ticket prices. We need a bigger solution. Much bigger. Universal skiing! Surely there must be a Democratic presidential candidate one-upping the field by advocating for a "free skiing for everyone" government program in a bid to win the free-stuff primary. Child care, college, guaranteed income, reparations, affordable housing, medicare for all -- don't stop there! -- FREE SKIING!



No doubt that will be Bernie's next move.  :lol:


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## Not Sure (Oct 11, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> No doubt that will be Bernie's next move.  :lol:



" Feel the Bern Turns" I may have to reconsider my political views ......Hmmmmm?


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## prsboogie (Oct 11, 2019)

Slight difference in what you get at the bird for the money.





thetrailboss said:


> $129 was Snowbird's holiday rate last season FWIW.



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## mister moose (Oct 11, 2019)

New Hampshire primary slalom:  Best time on a Nastar course gets all the delegates; Bernie should be a shoe in, he's lived in VT for decades.  Close second is Biden, who was born in Scranton and went to law school in Syracuse.  Forget Warren, she was born in Oklahoma and went to school in Texas.  Dark horse:  Yang, who went to high school at Exeter Academy in NH.


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## tumbler (Oct 12, 2019)

So anything from Win’s presentation today?


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## WWF-VT (Oct 12, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So anything from Win’s presentation today?



Nothing related to the "rumor" in this thread if that's what you want to know.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Nothing related to the "rumor" in this thread if that's what you want to know.



So I take it that the “rumor” is that SV is selling Sugarbush.


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## pinnoke (Oct 12, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So I take it that the “rumor” is that SV is selling Sugarbush.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Though several people I spoke with ahead of Win's (excellent) presentation were also anticipating validation of 'the rumor', and with many sound reasons to seek big money for future wish list upgrades, there was no bombshell news...just a thorough review of Sugarbush's current solid position amongst giants in the industry. Think snow!


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## Hawk (Oct 15, 2019)

No he did not say anything about selling.  He did say that he hoped to be the forerunner for the pond skimming for years to come.  ;-)

Highlights:
 - Spoke very broadly about the difficulties they are faced with.  This includes battling with the Giants with price structure, insurance costs are up, not enough labor to fill positions, Tax in VT and how it is not very business friendly, etc. '
 - He spoke about the fact that as an individual resort, they have very little negotiating power at the table when it comes to purchasing unlike the big companies. 
 - Spoke about the environment and their partnering with POW and 1% for the planet.  They have upped the anti and are giving back 1% of all food and beverage.
 - Spoke about the awards they have received for their commitment to the environment.
 - They have a new Food and Beverage Manager from France that has lots of experience.  Jerry Noonie retired this year.  (I liked Jerry.  He was a mountain biker and saw him all the time out on the trails.)
 - Spoke about the $4M capital outlay this year. - New $500K winch cat.  New gear box for Bravo.  Put power underground for HG and Castlerock.  New roofs and such.
 - Spoke about the need to expand snow-making to recover better after adverse weather. (Obviously I liked that one).  Unfortunately that will be a future item as the cash outlay will be huge to create new water reservoirs. 

I may have forgot a few things.  The overall presentation was good.  He does a nice job.  I could not help but think that all the discussion about the issues they are faced with was a little foreshadowing.  Maybe not.  Just a feeling.


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## 1dog (Oct 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> No he did not say anything about selling.  He did say that he hoped to be the forerunner for the pond skimming for years to come.  ;-)
> 
> Highlights:
> - Spoke very broadly about the difficulties they are faced with.  This includes battling with the Giants with price structure, insurance costs are up, not enough labor to fill positions, Tax in VT and how it is not very business friendly, etc. '
> ...


 
Thx Hawk, good intel for those of us who could not make it up.  I run a couple small businesses - and the pressure from regs and government ( but I repeat myself) couldn't be higher. 

I understand SV's struggles from his perspective. On top of that you have the weather, economy, and the help factor. 

 Also, everyone is leaving a given company at some point - even the president.

We hope there's a few more years of course. Change is inevitable.


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## slatham (Oct 15, 2019)

Re; the need for more water. Isn't the pond next to the Mad River enough, at least for Lincoln Peak? Have they run out of water before. IIRC it's 120 million gallons.


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## cdskier (Oct 15, 2019)

slatham said:


> Re; the need for more water. Isn't the pond next to the Mad River enough, at least for Lincoln Peak? Have they run out of water before. IIRC it's 120 million gallons.



Yes, they have run out of water (just a few years ago) and had to wait for river levels to rise and refill it (it was a drought or borderline drought year). And IIRC, it is permitted to 63M gallons, but only dug to a depth that allows less than that (~25M gallons).


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## Hawk (Oct 15, 2019)

The discussion was not about the total.  He said that they do not use even close to the allowed total.  it was about the GPM.  I think he was saying that they want to go from 2000 GPM to 6000 GPM.  In order to do that they would need to store more water close by or in another reservoir.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 15, 2019)

yeah that's a whole different ballgame there.  tripling uphill pumping capacity would require significant infrastructure from storage, to pumps, to on hill pipe system.


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## slatham (Oct 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yes, they have run out of water (just a few years ago) and had to wait for river levels to rise and refill it (it was a drought or borderline drought year). And IIRC, it is permitted to 63M gallons, but only dug to a depth that allows less than that (~25M gallons).



Yes, I recall that now. It was a fairly rare combo though - drought, cold snap reducing runoff, and cold snap causing constant snowmaking.



Hawk said:


> The discussion was not about the total.  He said that they do not use even close to the allowed total.  it was about the GPM.  I think he was saying that they want to go from 2000 GPM to 6000 GPM.  In order to do that they would need to store more water close by or in another reservoir.



That would explain the need for more on mountain storage. It would be cost prohibited to get that level of GPM from all the way down at the reservoir.


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## ss20 (Oct 15, 2019)

Tripling snowmaking pumping capacity is a bit excessive, imo.  Yes, they should be able to blow on more than three trails at a time.  But no one ever went to Sugarbush for their snowmaking ability.  

For me Killington has always been the dividing line between places where you could rely on natural snow vs places that have to rely on snowmaking.


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## cdskier (Oct 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The discussion was not about the total.  He said that they do not use even close to the allowed total.  it was about the GPM.  I think he was saying that they want to go from 2000 GPM to 6000 GPM.  In order to do that they would need to store more water close by or in another reservoir.



Is it maybe that they want to increase the GPM by 2000 to get to 6000 GPM at LP? I looked back at our previous discussions in this thread and they were around 4K GPM at LP right now (meanwhile ME is about 2-2.5K GPM on their system). Tripling capacity would be an aggressive goal, but increasing it by 50% seems like a reasonable longer term goal.

Makes complete sense to want to store water closer though and then potentially use the existing pond just to refill the "upper pond". Not sure where you would put one though and it would definitely not be cheap to do.


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## cdskier (Oct 15, 2019)

slatham said:


> Yes, I recall that now. It was a fairly rare combo though - drought, cold snap reducing runoff, and cold snap causing constant snowmaking.



Plan for the worst case scenario, hope for the best! 

Yes, it was a pretty rare combo. Although I seem to recall another year (either right before or after that one) where I was talking with one of the snowmaking ops guys in December and he was saying they were concerned again about water flow from the river and came close to running out before river levels rose just in time to start refilling the pond so they didn't have to think about shutting down during a nice stretch of cold weather. If you want to increase pumping capacity, makes sense to want to have a bit of insurance with being able to store more water than currently possible.


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## Hawk (Oct 16, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Tripling snow making pumping capacity is a bit excessive, imo.  Yes, they should be able to blow on more than three trails at a time.  But no one ever went to Sugarbush for their snow making ability.
> 
> For me Killington has always been the dividing line between places where you could rely on natural snow vs places that have to rely on snow making.



Excessive.  Have you ever been at Sugarbush for the weeks after a rain or thaw event mid winter?  It takes them a good long while to get things back in order.  Only trails like Snow ball, Spring Fling or Steins are set up to get a good coating after rain. That process is also hindered because they have to break down hoses and guns one trail, drag them to the next trail and set it up.  That is my opinion as well as the opinion of everybody I ski with.  This whole discussion about upgrading their capacity was part of the greater discussion on Climate change.  They realize that with the volatile weather patterns that are part of this new climate regime, they are going to need increased capacity to deal with it.  Recovery from warming events to maintain the skier experience will be a big part of what will make them better in the future.  They just have to figure out how to pay for that.  That is the rub.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2019)

I'm not sure I've ever contemplated snowmaking being "excessive" at any ski Eastern ski area in terms of capacity as long as the amount they use that capacity allows the ski area to still be comfortable with their profit margins. 

Excessive in terms of percentage of terrain covered? Sure.  I think many areas do not leave enough terrain all natural.  I'd rather more snowmaking resource spent on resurfacing terrain than trying to blanket almost everything. Sugarbush I think gets this mix right. 

Yes it sucks when all natural needs to remain closed for days, weeks at a time during bad weather, but the payoff is worth it when mother nature delivers

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## mister moose (Oct 16, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Excessive.  Have you ever been at Sugarbush for the weeks after a rain or thaw event mid winter?  It takes them a good long while to get things back in order.  Only trails like Snow ball, Spring Fling or Steins are set up to get a good coating after rain. That process is also hindered because they have to break down hoses and guns one trail, drag them to the next trail and set it up.  That is my opinion as well as the opinion of everybody I ski with.  This whole discussion about upgrading their capacity was part of the greater discussion on Climate change.  They realize that with the volatile weather patterns that are part of this new climate regime, they are going to need increased capacity to deal with it.  Recovery from warming events to maintain the skier experience will be a big part of what will make them better in the future.  They just have to figure out how to pay for that.  That is the rub.



This is the primary reason I'm at Killington instead of Sugarbush.  There were just too many days there was too little terrain at Sugarbush, and what was open was a slick mess.  There's nothing climate change about this.  Snowmaking was invented here in New England in the 60's for this reason - rain and lack of dependable natural snow.  Yes, when nature delivers the goods Sugarbush is a lot of fun.


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## crazy (Oct 16, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Excessive.  Have you ever been at Sugarbush for the weeks after a rain or thaw event mid winter?  It takes them a good long while to get things back in order.  Only trails like Snow ball, Spring Fling or Steins are set up to get a good coating after rain. That process is also hindered because they have to break down hoses and guns one trail, drag them to the next trail and set it up.  That is my opinion as well as the opinion of everybody I ski with.  This whole discussion about upgrading their capacity was part of the greater discussion on Climate change.  They realize that with the volatile weather patterns that are part of this new climate regime, they are going to need increased capacity to deal with it.  Recovery from warming events to maintain the skier experience will be a big part of what will make them better in the future.  They just have to figure out how to pay for that.  That is the rub.



100% agree. Recovery is incredibly important. The reason that skiing conditions are often much better in the American West than here in New England has less to do with snowfall (Jay, Smuggs, and Stowe get as much or more snow than a surprising number of western mountains) and much more to do with rain and freeze/thaw. The PNW also suffers from rain and freeze/thaw, just not quite as much, and they get quite a bit more snowfall than we do (even including Jay, Smuggs, and Stowe).


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## cdskier (Oct 16, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure I've ever contemplated snowmaking being "excessive" at any ski Eastern ski area in terms of capacity as long as the amount they use that capacity allows the ski area to still be comfortable with their profit margins.
> 
> Excessive in terms of percentage of terrain covered? Sure.  I think many areas do not leave enough terrain all natural.  I'd rather more snowmaking resource spent on resurfacing terrain than trying to blanket almost everything. Sugarbush I think gets this mix right.
> 
> Yes it sucks when all natural needs to remain closed for days, weeks at a time during bad weather, but the payoff is worth it when mother nature delivers



I think I pretty much agree with what you're saying across the board. The current % of terrain covered with snowmaking is fairly ideal (I could think of maybe a couple traverses or runouts where it may pay to add some snowmaking eventually such as Heaven's Gate traverse, but no major trails that don't currently have it would benefit as far as I'm concerned). Finding a way to increase capacity so you can either more quickly open those existing snowmaking trails or more quickly refresh them after a thaw/freeze type event would be a good long term strategy. As Hawk said though, the challenge is figuring out how to pay for it.


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## slatham (Oct 16, 2019)

The reality is IF you want to compete with the majors based on snowmaking alone, Sugarbush would have to be able to simultaneously make snow on multiple pods. To me this means at LEAST Jester/Downspout, Snowball/Spring Fling, Birch, Pushover and Village. Keep in mind this is for resurfacing, so you don't need every hydrant lit up all night. But still, this would require a massive uptick in capacity. 

Whether the cost/benefit analysis warrants this vs. current strategy is unknown to me.


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## 1dog (Oct 16, 2019)

I wonder what the cost of electricity contributes to this cost as a % of overall cost of say an acre of snow 12" deep ( or whatever standard the industry uses).

In MA, last I looked, we had the highest residential cost per kwH partly due to efficency regs, partly due to the blocking of that hydro line from Canada ( and I certainly understand those who oppose it in NH/VT)

Its gotta be a large factor right behind water access/storage?

Anyone?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2019)

I'm sure someone has the cost numbers. Likely varies a great deal depending on temperature and humidity.  Wind is obviously a big factor as well.  

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## bumpcrasher (Oct 16, 2019)

mister moose said:


> This is the primary reason I'm at Killington instead of Sugarbush.  There were just too many days there was too little terrain at Sugarbush, and what was open was a slick mess.  There's nothing climate change about this.  Snowmaking was invented here in New England in the 60's for this reason - rain and lack of dependable natural snow.  Yes, when nature delivers the goods Sugarbush is a lot of fun.



AGREED!!  We load up every year on ticket deals to Killington to be prepared for the thaw/freeze cycle.  The quality and quantity of snow at Killington is impressive by comparison.  

I must say, the Bush has gotten slightly better at resurfacing.  I'm thinking Stein's, Downsprout and Grinder in early February 2019.  Hope to see more of it!!


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## tumbler (Oct 16, 2019)

slatham said:


> The reality is IF you want to compete with the majors based on snowmaking alone, Sugarbush would have to be able to simultaneously make snow on multiple pods. To me this means at LEAST Jester/Downspout, Snowball/Spring Fling, Birch, Pushover and Village. Keep in mind this is for resurfacing, so you don't need every hydrant lit up all night. But still, this would require a massive uptick in capacity.
> 
> Whether the cost/benefit analysis warrants this vs. current strategy is unknown to me.



Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity.  Also the philosophy was different then.  Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail.  Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop.  Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter.  Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.


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## 1dog (Oct 16, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity.  Also the philosophy was different then.  Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail.  Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop.  Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter.  Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.



I recall those days. They dumped a lot of $$ in and those portable generators were hauled all over the place.

The new guns seem to give dryer snow, are much quieter and if  I remember correctly, use 80% less energy than ones they replaced. Also used less water ( which makes sense -dryer snow = less H2O)

ASC also can be used as an example of creative destruction in another string ( Jay)  - it went belly up and SV comes in and takes the place and makes it work - for a lot less than originally invested )


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## tumbler (Oct 16, 2019)

1dog said:


> I recall those days. They dumped a lot of $$ in and those portable generators were hauled all over the place.
> 
> The new guns seem to give dryer snow, are much quieter and if  I remember correctly, use 80% less energy than ones they replaced. Also used less water ( which makes sense -dryer snow = less H2O)
> 
> ASC also can be used as an example of creative destruction in another string ( Jay)  - it went belly up and SV comes in and takes the place and makes it work - for a lot less than originally invested )



New guns used less energy.  In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable.  More cold, more water used.  New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air.  I disagree on the quality of the snow though.  The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product.  The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter.  Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps.  ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.


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## mister moose (Oct 16, 2019)

tumbler said:


> New guns used less energy.  In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable.  More cold, more water used.  New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air.  I disagree on the quality of the snow though.  The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product.  The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter.  Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps.  ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.



Yes and no.  Yes, new guns use far less air.  The K3000s use on the order of 60 cfm each, and the new Snow Logics use a tenth of that.  Both frequently put out wet snow, and the only conclusion as a skier observer is it is for higher production and it forms a harder base.  No, both can make dry snow.  I've seen the snow logics put out talc dry snow when cold enough, below 20 degrees.  (They do have a characteristic plume, wetter closer in, drier farther out)  One thing the new guns can't do is make snow in marginal temps, the air hogs are always out early season.

Superstar right now is lined with a K3000 every 15 feet, later on in February for the big build they will run the Snow Logic towers for a week or more 24-7.


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## ss20 (Oct 16, 2019)

Sheesh...can't I get ONE other person who thinks tripling snowmaking capacity is "excessive"? ;-)

Perhaps I should have phrased it..."I'd prefer to see that money spent in other areas" such as a new Mt. Ellen lodge or saving up for an eventual replacement of Heaven's Gate or Gatehouse.  That said, I don't have an SB pass and can pick/choose my days for when there's good snow (which...imo...is often enough not to warrant tripling pumping capacity).


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2019)

Well to get agreement, you would need to put the financials on the table to compare and contrast.

Tripling snowmaking capacity costs "X"

Heavens Gate Chair has had it's issues, and will get replaced someday, but likely nothing more than a FG Quad due to exposure. Maybe with Conveyor.  Call that $4M

GateHouse is still young. Not going away anytime soon I would think. But call that $6M

New Ellen Lodge, which really is only needed on Saturdays and holidays?  That's big bucks for limited return.

I'll take the snowmaking capacity thanks. 

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## Newpylong (Oct 16, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Yes and no.  Yes, new guns use far less air.  The K3000s use on the order of 60 cfm each, and the new Snow Logics use a tenth of that.  Both frequently put out wet snow, and the only conclusion as a skier observer is it is for higher production and it forms a harder base.  No, both can make dry snow.  I've seen the snow logics put out talc dry snow when cold enough, below 20 degrees.  (They do have a characteristic plume, wetter closer in, drier farther out)  One thing the new guns can't do is make snow in marginal temps, the air hogs are always out early season.
> 
> Superstar right now is lined with a K3000 every 15 feet, later on in February for the big build they will run the Snow Logic towers for a week or more 24-7.



Add a 0 to that figure, the K3000 will use up to 600 CFM if you give it to them!


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## cdskier (Oct 16, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Well to get agreement, you would need to put the financials on the table to compare and contrast.
> 
> Tripling snowmaking capacity costs "X"
> 
> ...



And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.

I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.


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## Newpylong (Oct 16, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Used to run multiple pods at once back in the ASC days when portable air compressors were brought in for more air capacity.  Also the philosophy was different then.  Had guns, towers and hoses on almost every trail and would bounce around resurfacing instead of running on one trail for a week then having to strip and move everything to another trail.  Also the goal was to not make piles but move the guns to have an even surface of dry snow, not wet slop.  Only dry snow now is when it is so cold it can't be wetter.  Been lucky on Stein's a few times to get the cold dry gunpowder.



No - air is not their limiting factor, and never was, water is. ASC used rentals and Summit Ventures installed electric fixed air. ASC also required more air back then as SR7's, etc were the norm. They currently very rarely use all of the air compression that they own in house.


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## Newpylong (Oct 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.
> 
> I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.



3800 GPM Lincoln, 2500 GPM Ellen.

Not a lot of capacity for that much acreage. Wildcat has a similar situation.


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## Newpylong (Oct 16, 2019)

tumbler said:


> New guns used less energy.  In snowmaking air is the constant and water is the variable.  More cold, more water used.  New guns are much more quiet because they use much less air.  I disagree on the quality of the snow though.  The older air hogs made a finer water molecule for a lighter product.  The new less air guns have a larger molecule and I find wetter.  Much of it is up to snowmakers adjusting with the temps.  ASC did many things wrong, but they did know how to make snow.



In modern snowmaking with internal mix guns with selectable stages, both air and water are variables. The new guns are not quieter because they use less air, they are quieter because the orifices are smaller. 50 CFM or 500 CFM at 110 PSI is still going to be as loud as hell given the same size hole. But look at the size of a Ratnik or SR7 gun orifice to that of an HKD or Snow Logic (for example).

Low E guns are just as capable of making a dry product, and High E guns just as capable of making a wet product. A lot of that comes down to user error or a conscious decision to sacrifice quality for quantity.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.


  If you want to see the ME lodge expansion completed faster, donate to VT Adaptive:

https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/homesweethome/index.html


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## cdskier (Oct 17, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> If you want to see the ME lodge expansion completed faster, donate to VT Adaptive:
> 
> https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/homesweethome/index.html



Yup. Great suggestion. I did actually donate to VT Adaptive just a few months ago (although not specifically for the lodge expansion as it was a more general donation if I recall correctly).


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## 1dog (Oct 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.
> 
> I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.



Heard a year or so ago that an on-mountain lodge - terminus of GH/SB/NL area was in the mix - nothing except small warming lodges on mountain here compared to other 'larger' ice coast areas. It would relieve some pressure on the base area crowds too. And a another wedding venue - that seems to be growing in the valley.

It does appear that the snow gun tenders  have a say in air/water mix. Not a great analogy but great unprepared food at a restuarant still takes skilled hands to prepare it to make or break the customer experience. 

Turn over and lack of experienced help makes a difference there too.

Housing costs, pay, schedules,  competition, etc. lure people away.  

So many variables. . . . . and as Win mentioned, VT  is not business friendly. 

Someone always states this pre season  - soon as cold and dumps begin and a decent base is there - snowmaking discussions disppear.

Lets hope and pray thats the case come Dec - early Dec.


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## Hawk (Oct 17, 2019)

ASC's demise was about about leveraged buying and development of lodging.  They were trying to build housing and sell it to make money.  that is what did them in.  It has nothing to do with snow making.  For what it is worth I worked at an ASC resort for a while way back.  They made more snow and quality snow they anywhere else except probably Killington, another ASC resort.  They are the model that everybody looks at when building a new snow making system or expanding.


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## Hawk (Oct 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> And isn't the Ellen Lodge being expanded potentially next year anyway by Vermont Adaptive? Once they sink that money in I can't see the ME lodge being replaced at any point in the near future.
> 
> I'm also still not sure their goal is to ever "triple" snowmaking. I think the numbers may be off a bit because unless something has changed, they currently have around 4K GPM capacity at LP, not 2K. Tripling that brings you to 12K GPM which would be essentially Killington levels. I don't see that happening ever.


Listen, people are getting bogged down with the numbers based on what I reported. 2X, 3x what ever.  I thought Win said that they wanted to go from 2K to 6K.  That might be wrong.  The point he was trying to get across is they want to increase the GPM so that they can blow more snow faster when there is a thaw event.  Any increase is a win(no pun intended) to me.  I will repeat that he also said that it is not going to happen any time soon as they do not have the capital or governmental approval for such an increase.


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## mister moose (Oct 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The point [Sugarbush] was trying to get across is they want to increase the GPM so that they can blow more snow faster when there is a thaw event.  Any increase is a win(no pun intended) to me.  I will repeat that he also said that it is not going to happen any time soon as they do not have the capital *or governmental approval for such an increase*.



And here is a large problem for Eastern skiing in general, and Vermont in particular.  Just exactly what is the problem with spraying water on some trails?  Why isn't Montpelier saying, here, let me help you, of course you can draw more water to further your business, hiring, sales, and improve the struggling economy of Vermont?  Imagine how much better the East could compete with the West if they could adapt as they best saw fit to keeping snow conditions as high quality as possible, rather than have to spend large sums of money on permits, applications, lawyers, environmental studies and engineering to _just spray water_?


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## Hawk (Oct 18, 2019)

I think you are misunderstanding the issue.  Sugarbush has the approvals to draw water from the river.  They only use about 20% to 30% of whats allowed.  The approvals they will need are for the installation of new snow making ponds or storage facilities, piping etc.  Those will require engineering, drainage plans erosion control, etc that any state would require.  Granted that ACT 250 is pretty strict but you would have to do that for any type of constitution in VT or something similar in other states.  Even out West.


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## cdskier (Oct 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Listen, people are getting bogged down with the numbers based on what I reported. 2X, 3x what ever.  I thought Win said that they wanted to go from 2K to 6K.  That might be wrong.  The point he was trying to get across is they want to increase the GPM so that they can blow more snow faster when there is a thaw event.  Any increase is a win(no pun intended) to me.  I will repeat that he also said that it is not going to happen any time soon as they do not have the capital or governmental approval for such an increase.



Yes, I'm obsessive with numbers. Sorry, can't help it! I do agree that any increase is a win (even just a 50% increase from ~4K to 6K would be a decent improvement).



mister moose said:


> And here is a large problem for Eastern skiing in general, and Vermont in particular.  Just exactly what is the problem with spraying water on some trails?  Why isn't Montpelier saying, here, let me help you, of course you can draw more water to further your business, hiring, sales, and improve the struggling economy of Vermont?  Imagine how much better the East could compete with the West if they could adapt as they best saw fit to keeping snow conditions as high quality as possible, rather than have to spend large sums of money on permits, applications, lawyers, environmental studies and engineering to _just spray water_?



Like Hawk said earlier, they're nowhere near using the "amount" of water that they can. So I don't particularly think the government approvals would be related to the amount of water they spray on the trails. Rather I would guess the approvals are more related to having to dig a giant hole in the ground somewhere to build a new/bigger pond. And to be fair, something like that should need approval to make sure it is done properly.


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## urungus (Oct 18, 2019)

mister moose said:


> And here is a large problem for Eastern skiing in general, and Vermont in particular.  Just exactly what is the problem with spraying water on some trails?  Why isn't Montpelier saying, here, let me help you, of course you can draw more water to further your business, hiring, sales, and improve the struggling economy of Vermont?  Imagine how much better the East could compete with the West if they could adapt as they best saw fit to keeping snow conditions as high quality as possible, rather than have to spend large sums of money on permits, applications, lawyers, environmental studies and engineering to _just spray water_?



Water is not an unlimited resource and there are many other entities vying for it:  farms, towns, other industries, etc.  Extreme example ... How would you feel if the resort just upstream from your favorite ski hill built a giant reservoir and diverted the entire river into it, leaving your resort with zero water ?


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## mister moose (Oct 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I think you are misunderstanding the issue.  Sugarbush has the approvals to draw water from the river.  They only use about 20% to 30% of whats allowed.  The approvals they will need are for the installation of new snow making ponds or storage facilities, piping etc.  Those will require engineering, drainage plans erosion control, etc that any state would require.  Granted that ACT 250 is pretty strict but you would have to do that for any type of constitution in VT or something similar in other states.  Even out West.


You're correct in that I'm not familiar with Sugarbush's permits.  I was speaking for the entire state, and the degree of adversarial rather than cooperative relationships that exist.





urungus said:


> Water is not an unlimited resource and there are many other entities vying for it:  farms, towns, other industries, etc.  Extreme example ... How would you feel if the resort just upstream from your favorite ski hill built a giant reservoir and diverted the entire river into it, leaving your resort with zero water ?



I've seen no information on a lack of water in either the Connecticut river, the Hudson, Ottaquachee, Winooski, or any other smaller ski area related river, much less in the late fall or winter.  It melts and returns to the watershed.  Your issue could be solved with a $50 application and one question - does anyone downstream suffer a lack of water as a result of the amount of water you wish to pump from the river during the period in question?  ​


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## tumbler (Oct 18, 2019)

There are very tight restrictions to the amount of water that can be drawn from the Mad River (or any river) based on the low flow in the winter.  The level of the river and the amount of water withdrawn is monitored, documented and sent to the state.


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## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2019)

tumbler said:


> There are very tight restrictions to the amount of water that can be drawn from the Mad River (or any river) based on the low flow in the winter.  The level of the river and the amount of water withdrawn is monitored, documented and sent to the state.



Right so it isn’t just what humans need it down stream but fauna and floral as well


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mister moose (Oct 18, 2019)

tumbler said:


> There are very tight restrictions to the amount of water that can be drawn from the Mad River (or any river) based on the low flow in the winter.  The level of the river and the amount of water withdrawn is monitored, documented and sent to the state.




Looking at some data, the Mad River  at Mooretown flows 350 CFS at average river levels from November to January, the period of most snowmaking.  350 CFS is 157,500 GPM.  



So on a very  intermittent basis, Sugarbush at 4,000 GPM would draw 2.5% of the flow from the Mad River.  Yes, the flow at Warren is less than Mooretown, and yes, there would be some fish whose pool of water would be smaller during pumping periods, but what is the real demonstrable need to create such restrictions?


Look at the Ottauqueechee, which Killington feeds out of right at West Bridgewater



November to January flows average 900 CFS, which is 405,000 GPM.  Killington pumps from the two ponds at what, 12,000 GPM, and that total  is less than 3% of the river flow, yet Killington is restricted on the Ottauquechee and pumps the rest from Woodward Reservoir.

In both cases, the reduced river flow in the period is exponentially higher than low flows in July to September.

I don't see how any concern on water use by ski areas holds water.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 18, 2019)

JDMRoma said:


> That Holiday Rate is Awesome !



I think it's somewhat telling that when I mentioned the high walk up rates in the $120-range several folks here simply didn't believe it but chose to defend it anyway.

Look, I'd never pay that much. I will go to Sugarbush exactly one time this winter/spring on a Ski Vermont pass (and if I can't get enough I'll use Ride and Ski card for 50% off another day). This isn't really a selfish cause, but as a matter of principle and tradition I just don't see it as justified to even attempt to screw someone over that much on the way in, knowing the same fool (likely new skier or Lambo driver, probably not too many in between) is going to drop a $40 lunch tab, $20 for hand warmers, and $40 on souvenir items from their once-in-a-lifetime trip to Vermont.

I like Sugarbush though, as a naturally excellent ski resort. It's obviously top-tier in the East in terms of terrain, challenge and adventure.

By the way, add $5 to those prices because you need an RFID card... that's $134 on a holiday sucker! Nope not Vail Colorado, Warren Vermont.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 18, 2019)

mister moose said:


> I don't see how any concern on water use by ski areas holds water.



Didn't Mad River Glen say they purchased a few more fan guns this summer (bringing their total to something like four or five)?

This math may need to be completely redone if they ever decide to patch up a bare spot on Quacky II.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 18, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> I think it's somewhat telling that when I mentioned the high walk up rates in the $120-range several folks here simply didn't believe it but chose to defend it anyway.
> 
> Look, I'd never pay that much. I will go to Sugarbush exactly one time this winter/spring on a Ski Vermont pass (and if I can't get enough I'll use Ride and Ski card for 50% off another day). This isn't really a selfish cause, but as a matter of principle and tradition I just don't see it as justified to even attempt to screw someone over that much on the way in, knowing the same fool (likely new skier or Lambo driver, probably not too many in between) is going to drop a $40 lunch tab, $20 for hand warmers, and $40 on souvenir items from their once-in-a-lifetime trip to Vermont.
> 
> ...


Honestly, as much as seeing these three figure lift ticket prices is alarming in that many believe that it is contributing to the flat growth rate of the sport, I don't think many casual skiers think much about it; especially folks who spend any amount of time at all in cities.   The entertainment options these folks are used to cost way more.  Try seeing a professional sports team in Boston for $120 a ticket.  Your seats will be mediocre at best, your paying $13 for a decent beer and $6 for a hot dog. Popular concerts or Theater events you'll spend even more than that for good seats. Nevermind the parking expense.   I had to park in three locations in town yesterday for work meetings. 3 hours at each garage.  I spent $94 on parking.  Thankfully that's a business expense that I get reimbursed for.  Dinner out with my clients was $150 a person at Legal Seafoods, which isn't exactly a high cost Boston restaurant. 

I'm just grateful season pass price options are reasonable these days.  They were way more expensive in the past. 

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## 1dog (Oct 18, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Honestly, as much as seeing these three figure lift ticket prices is alarming in that many believe that it is contributing to the flat growth rate of the sport, I don't think many casual skiers think much about it; especially folks who spend any amount of time at all in cities.   The entertainment options these folks are used to cost way more.  Try seeing a professional sports team in Boston for $120 a ticket.  Your seats will be mediocre at best, your paying $13 for a decent beer and $6 for a hot dog. Popular concerts or Theater events you'll spend even more than that for good seats. Nevermind the parking expense.   I had to park in three locations in town yesterday for work meetings. 3 hours at each garage.  I spent $94 on parking.  Thankfully that's a business expense that I get reimbursed for.  Dinner out with my clients was $150 a person at Legal Seafoods, which isn't exactly a high cost Boston restaurant.
> 
> I'm just grateful season pass price options are reasonable these days.  They were way more expensive in the past.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Simple economics and a good comparison - choices. I was a season ticket holder for the Bruins in the past - but no real deal by purchasing 6 months in advance - plenty of people behind me when I chose not to renew.

As for the other choices DHS mentions, unlike the new options in skiing/riding, you can't purchase at $800- $900 6 months in advance to ski/ride  6-8 days to break even ( @$120) with dinner/parking/sporting event, etc.

Using inflation adjusted dollars it is getting cheaper using the various pass options, stack on that super cheap gas thanks to abundance and new tech  and deregulation making US the majot player in production, Airbnb/VRBO and ski house options, (not to mention friends with condos and houses) and its not as expensive as 1982.

I did pay $12 half a day at K -Mart back then, I did get $15 rentals, and gas was $1.25, but I made maybe $7-$10 an hour too.

Couldn't afford full day, were day trips mostly, but was never about the money when you become addicted to snowcaine  - as you all know - you'll do almost anything to make it happen. 

It's hard to go to Gillette for under a grand  for two and they have no tree-skiing there. Not a good comparison but Orthwein ( sp?) paid Sullivan $30 M for Pats in early 90's, sold to Kraft few yrs later for $150M - everyone said he was nuts - second or third highest valued sport franchise at around $1.5-$2B now. Can't say that for SV after they got a deal from ASC debacle. 

No one is forced to go to either sport - its great to have choices and competition.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 18, 2019)

Just for argument's sake...

#1 I understand that places like Bousquet, Otis Ridge, Blandford Ski Area, etc are open and their tickets are very affordable.

#2 I understand Bolton Valley hands out $39 passes like candy and nobody has an excuse to say they had to pay $80 more down the road for an experience that's arguably not much better anyway.

I'm just curious what the difference would be for places like Sugarbush or Killington to charge $99 walk up rate instead of $120+. Are they worried about the crowds? But wouldn't more skiers mean overall more cash flow especially with add-ons?

To me posting a price like $119 or $129 on the ticket window is pretty close to a blantant FU to anyone who showed up unprepared. And on the other point, I think it disproportionately affects new skiers and people not in the know. I'm not into radical social justice, but on some level I don't think access to these mountains should come with a prohibitive cost which only part of the population can shrug off.

I would just encourage these top-tier mountains to start working things in the other direction. If they don't, it really works out fine for me because many places I prefer to ski with lesser crowds will capitalize on the influx of skiers tired of the jacked up prices. Places like Bolton Valley or Black Mountain NH are probably getting a second look from a lot of folks.

Cannon prices are very acceptable and Wednesdays are 3-for-1. To me it's always a good look when a mountain offers a cheap deal on low traffic days. Allows more folks to participate in the sport which is good business all around. But when certain high-ticket locations like let's say Okemo charge $120 or so for a day pass, come on, I'm not wearing a fur coat to go skiing.

But it does appear the players in the industry are taking a few different approaches. We're lucky to live in a region with such geographically high density options.


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## 1dog (Oct 18, 2019)

Understand all those points - competition and variety and selection.

Still think its to drive people to purchase more long term passes. If say 10-20% of the 3-4 days a year skier got turned into a 8-10 day via early pass purchase - you have a larger  'faithful'' or bought-in customer.

If more did what Bolton or these other middle areas did, they'd suffer and so would the experience for those of us who already see largest crowds on weekends than  we've seen ever before. 

I'm glad I'm the customer and not developing the business stratigic plan. Happy customers come from different experiences, but few ( oer none) are from standing in line or getting squeezed on Deathspout


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## mister moose (Oct 18, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> #1 I understand that places like Bousquet, Otis Ridge, Blandford Ski Area, etc are open and their tickets are very affordable.


I grew up skiing places like this, as well as Catamount, Sundown, and small places since off the map like Hogback and Mt Tom.  My parents consciously avoided big resorts like Mt Snow and Killington.  Vacations were Bromely and Magic.  We'd day trip, and eat in the car on the way home.

I can't be the only one, and I'm guessing quite a few are doing the same thing today.


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## machski (Oct 19, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Looking at some data, the Mad River  at Mooretown flows 350 CFS at average river levels from November to January, the period of most snowmaking.  350 CFS is 157,500 GPM.
> 
> View attachment 25453
> 
> ...


Moose, what you are missing is Killington does not just draw from the Ottqueche but from the Woodward Reservoir and possibly one other source.  In addition, it is probably not a direct draw from either but those feed reservoirs Killington has that then feed the system.  

When Otten bought SB, they drew straight out of the Mad River.  Flow rates were issues so to avoid that, he built a reservoir on the river to store water during high flow times to not loose drawing capacity during low flow periods.

Sunday River has access to the most water of probably anywhere.  But even they use holding ponds just off the river to stockpile water for pumping up to the hill.  You do not want to pump straight from a river in the middle of winter as it can get super cold and River flows will almost halt, unless you have a deep holding reservoir.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 1dog (Oct 19, 2019)

http://www.nelsap.org


'How many more Mr. Speaker? How many more  ( ski areas) must die?'


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## Newpylong (Oct 19, 2019)

machski said:


> Moose, what you are missing is Killington does not just draw from the Ottqueche but from the Woodward Reservoir and possibly one other source.  In addition, it is probably not a direct draw from either but those feed reservoirs Killington has that then feed the system.
> 
> When Otten bought SB, they drew straight out of the Mad River.  Flow rates were issues so to avoid that, he built a reservoir on the river to store water during high flow times to not loose drawing capacity during low flow periods.
> 
> ...



Killington has 4 water sources - and they are used in this priority order as it is less expensive to use water close to where you need it.

-Roaring Brook (which replenishes the Snowshed Pond)
-Falls Brook (which replenishes the Bear Pond)
-Ottauquechee River/Gondola intake (which replenishes both the Bear and the Snowshed Pond). This pumping station is on the east side of Route 4 (underneath the walkway abutment) 
-Woodward Reservoir (which replenishes both the Bear Pond and Snowshed Ponds when they cannot withdraw from the 3 above due to conversation flows). Water is sent via gravity/siphon from the Reservoir to the main pumping station where Route 100 and 4 split in West Bridgewater. The pipe goes first to Bear then over to Snowshed.

Woodward was installed in a nutshell to meet conservation flows at the existing intakes and get more water at the same time.

They wanted to originally tap water sources up in Parker's Gore in the 80s (and build a pond there called "Mendon Pond") but gave up after considerable opposition. They later then swapped this land for the land in the basin between K and Pico with the state.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 19, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Just for argument's sake...
> 
> #1 I understand that places like Bousquet, Otis Ridge, Blandford Ski Area, etc are open and their tickets are very affordable.
> 
> ...



If you don't like to spend over $100 for a day ticket there is always the option of Mt Ellen at Sugarbush


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## Howitzer (Oct 19, 2019)

The window rate at a ski area is analogous to walking up to an airline ticket counter and buying a plane ticket. Do people do it? Absolutely. I am interested to see more ski areas utilize dynamic pricing for walk up lift tickets. It is common place in other industries. Why not skiing? It would help further drive season pass sales that are more and more important under the Vail/Alterra model.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> If you don't like to spend over $100 for a day ticket there is always the option of Mt Ellen at Sugarbush



That's true ... you know what really surprised me just now? I checked Mad Riven Glen... $92 day tickets (weekdays, weekends and holidays same price). Geez, that really jumped up! Imagine the day Mad River Glen goes triple digits, we're a long way from Kansas, Dorothy!


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## cdskier (Oct 19, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> That's true ... you know what really surprised me just now? I checked Mad Riven Glen... $92 day tickets (weekdays, weekends and holidays same price). Geez, that really jumped up! Imagine the day Mad River Glen goes triple digits, we're a long way from Kansas, Dorothy!



I was seriously tempted to bring MRG's price up in comparison to SB a few days ago when this conversation started. I know MRG is special and unique, but SB's daily rate really doesn't seem that unreasonable in comparison. Of course if you're actually paying window rates at either, you're doing it wrong anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 19, 2019)

If I were a MRG skier, I'd want the daily rate to be higher than my neighbors. Encourage casual visitors to head to SB instead to help  cut down on the worst lift lines in New England by far.  

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## tumbler (Oct 22, 2019)

machski said:


> When Otten bought SB, they drew straight out of the Mad River.  Flow rates were issues so to avoid that, he built a reservoir on the river to store water during high flow times to not loose drawing capacity during low flow periods.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Incorrect.  The water for South was pumped from Clay Brook at the Golf Course and there was a small intake at the old gondola building.  South had very little snowmaking then.  Les built the Mad River intake and pond and put in snowmaking all over the mountain.  North was the snowmaking mountain of SB before Les.


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## slatham (Oct 22, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Incorrect.  The water for South was pumped from Clay Brook at the Golf Course and there was a small intake at the old gondola building.  South had very little snowmaking then.  Les built the Mad River intake and pond and put in snowmaking all over the mountain.  North was the snowmaking mountain of SB before Les.



Yes people forget that in the late 80's early 90's Mt Ellen had a new, state-of-the-art snowmaking system covering a good portion of the mountain. Lincoln peak was extremely limited. It was day and night.

With regard to walk up rate - how much is the inflation meant to help the calculus of whether to buy a pass or a quad pack or simply get online a day or so before? I'll bet a lot. 

And I question 2 things - that people "not in the know" about skiing somehow don't know about the internet and buying online? I mean every major sporting or concert event is 100% sold online. Same with flights, hotels, etc. To think just because someone hasn't skied before that they don't know about checking online for tickets is ludicrous.

And also that people "new to skiing" aren't renting and thus getting a package deal that values the ticket well below walk up.


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## mikec142 (Oct 22, 2019)

I wish that there was a season pass that makes sense for me and my family.  But since there isn't, I'm pretty happy about the quad packs and especially the loyalty quad packs.  To be clear, I strongly consider Sugarbush to be my home mountain and for the past few years have done the vast majority of my east coast skiing there.  I've said it before, but as far as east coast skiing goes, SB has the best overall package for me.

If I had one minor nit to pick it would be that the high cost of day passes takes some of the spontaneity out of the decision making process.  This isn't confined to Sugarbush, it's everywhere.  I experienced this at Park City, Alta, and Canyons this past March as well.  

We live in NJ and it's a 5.5 hour drive to Burlington where we often stay with family.  From Burlington it's about 55-60 minutes to Stowe/SB/Smuggs/MRG and about 35-40 minutes to Bolton.  When we get on 89S from Burlington to go to the mountains we get off at exit 10 in Waterbury.  From there, you can go north to Stowe or south to the MRV.  By purchasing tix in advance I save $$$.  However, conditions change and when we wake up in the morning, my wife may want to go to Stowe where she can ride the gondola to warm up in between runs or sit in the lobby at the Stowe Mountain Lodge and read a book if she feels like calling it a day.  There are a million scenarios.  Last year I really stocked up on quad packs but turns out my wife and kids didn't ski as much as I expected so I shared a few tix with friends to make sure I used them up (I ended up eating one day).  But the flip side is that while my skiing at SB was really reasonably priced, I didn't ski at MRG or Stowe last year because I felt that I had to use my existing passes.  It's the high cost of day passes that takes the spontaneity out of the decision making process.

I experienced the same scenario in Utah.  We were staying in PC so we pre-purchased a 2 out of 3 day pass at PC to save some $$$.  We had four ski days total.  But because you never know what the weather would be like it was hard to purchase advance passes to Alta, Snowbird, Solitude, etc.  Ended up skiing at PC day one, Alta day two (paid full walk up price), PC day three (snowing and roads to Alta/SB closed) and the last day we planned to ski Snowbird, but ended up purchasing slightly discounted tix the night before to ski Canyons based on anticipated conditions.  Turns out it was a good idea as the road to Snowbird was closed.  But even if we went to Snowbird, we would have paid full walk up price.

I'm dealing with a ski family of four that tries to get out west each season, but there is zero guarantee of that happening.  So four Ikon passes would be expensive and I'm not sure we would get the value.  In the future, I might buy an Ikon pass for me and some quad packs for the family.  

This is a long way of saying there is no perfect solution so we play the cards we are dealt.


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## flakeydog (Oct 22, 2019)

Correct on where the snowmaking resided prior to the 90s.  It was all at North, dry as a bone over at South.

As complex as snowmaking is from a technical perspective, a lot has to happen before the first gallon of water ever enters a pipe.

Things changed in the early 90s and the Sugarbush snowmaking debate was one of 3 watershed cases (get it?) that set the stage for the future of snowmaking expansion and regulation in Vermont and elsewhere in New England.  The issues here are complex involving private industry, the economy, and environmental/ecological concerns all wrapped up in the concept of what we would define as the "Public Good".  We have a desire for the economy to thrive but that includes trout running in our streams as well as skiers on snow covered slopes.

Until it snows, I recommend the following light reading that profiles the resolution of the Sugarbush case along with some history on some of the other other cases at the time.  While this shaped regulatory policy going forward, the debate is far from over.

https://www.pressdozierlaw.com/files/Sugarbush.pdf

http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1297&context=ealr


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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> If I had one minor nit to pick it would be that the high cost of day passes takes some of the spontaneity out of the decision making process.  This isn't confined to Sugarbush, it's everywhere.  I experienced this at Park City, Alta, and Canyons this past March as well.
> 
> ... But the flip side is that while my skiing at SB was really reasonably priced, I didn't ski at MRG or Stowe last year because I felt that I had to use my existing passes.  It's the high cost of day passes that takes the spontaneity out of the decision making process.
> 
> ...in Utah.  ...But because you never know what the weather would be like it was hard to purchase advance passes to Alta, Snowbird, Solitude, etc.



This is all boiled down to the fact that the industry has monetized spontaneity.  You can buy a seasons pass* and be spontaneous about when you go, but you cannot be spontaneous about where you go, unless you want to pay top dollar.  I'm not saying that's a good thing for skiers, but it's the current reality.



*(Even then, it may depend on the type pass you bought)


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 22, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I wish that there was a season pass that makes sense for me and my family.  But since there isn't, I'm pretty happy about the quad packs and especially the loyalty quad packs.


  Since it sounds like you ski SB and out west, have you considered the Mountain Collective Pass?  You only get 2 days at each area, but then you get 50%off additional day tickets for each area after that.  For SB that is less than the Quad Pack with Loyalty discount per ticket.


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## JimG. (Oct 22, 2019)

mister moose said:


> This is all boiled down to the fact that the industry has monetized spontaneity.  You can buy a seasons pass* and be spontaneous about when you go, but you cannot be spontaneous about where you go, unless you want to pay top dollar.  I'm not saying that's a good thing for skiers, but it's the current reality.
> 
> 
> 
> *(Even then, it may depend on the type pass you bought)



This is a great synopsis.

I get 2 "mini" season passes, Killington/Pico and Belleayre/Gore/Whiteface. So I still get some variety. But I always enjoyed going to around 10 "off pass" mountains per season and I will no longer do that with the ridiculous walk up rates.


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## mikec142 (Oct 22, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Since it sounds like you ski SB and out west, have you considered the Mountain Collective Pass?  You only get 2 days at each area, but then you get 50%off additional day tickets for each area after that.  For SB that is less than the Quad Pack with Loyalty discount per ticket.



I'm actually not that familiar with the MC pass.  I ski Sugarbush 7-10x per season.  My family doesn't ski every day that I do.  Last year I bought twenty days worth of quad pack tix at the early bird price so that gave me 20 days at about $65/day all in.  For various reasons my family didn't ski nearly as much as I did last year so lets say we used 14 of those days as a family and I shared 5 days with friends and ate one day at the end of the season.  We try to get out west once/year, but realistically, it's closer to every other year.  How would the math work on that for me (and my family)?

For frame of reference, here was my skiing from last year.  It's pretty indicative of what normally happens.

11/22 - Sugarbush
12/24 - Gore
12/25 - Gore
12/27 - Sugarbush
1/12 - Sugarbush
1/13 - Sugarbush
1/26 - Windham
2/2 - Windham
2/16 - Bolton Valley (intended SB but big accident shut down route 100 and we turned around)
2/17 - Sugarbush
3/2 - Sugarbush
3/3 - Sugarbush
3/11 - Park City
3/12 - Alta
3/13 - Park City
3/14 - Park City - Canyons

That's just me.  That doesn't include the family.

I wonder if I pay for the MC pass and don't go out west where the break even point is for me at SB vs. quad packs.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 22, 2019)

i'm not running any numbers here, but it strikes me as absurd that you dont ikon (or epic) with that schedule. ikon will get you much more value than MC. replace your windham and gore with places on the passes and you're coming out so much better than quad packs and liftopia/day tickets. if you're married to the catskills, do epic/hunter, or ikon with some money thrown to platty and belle for affordable day tix. throw in a western trip and its an utter no brainer.


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## cdskier (Oct 22, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I wonder if I pay for the MC pass and don't go out west where the break even point is for me at SB vs. quad packs.



If you don't go out west at all you will never break even on the MC pass and the Quad Packs would be a far better value no matter how many days you ski at SB.

Current price on the MC pass is $509 (I think it was lower earlier in the year). SB is the only eastern resort on the pass. So if you only use 2 days at SB, you're paying way more than the daily rate. Additional days at SB would be 50% off as an MC pass holder, but even at 10 days at SB total with MC you'd still be at around $100/day average. MC only works out well if you plan to visit at least 2-3 of the resorts that are part of the pass.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 22, 2019)

i do miss the max pass' inclusion of whiteface gore and windham. was really nice to have a catskills and adks option.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 22, 2019)

mister moose said:


> This is all boiled down to the fact that the industry has monetized spontaneity.  You can buy a seasons pass* and be spontaneous about when you go, but you cannot be spontaneous about where you go, unless you want to pay top dollar.  I'm not saying that's a good thing for skiers, but it's the current reality.



Agree and it's a smart business move, but I'd like to see the liberals up in Vermont take this on as a social justice cause. Everything today is about how much "equity" people have. Even a man should be able to wear tampons and pay no tax on them.

I'd rather take a small step back and say even a poor immigrant or just any lower income person should be able to ski "legendary" terrain.

To be 100% my thought process on this comes from 2 places. 1) I don't like getting ripped off, and I have a limited middle class income. 2) I married into a Puerto Rican family, and along with that comes friends and relatives who have started to ski but on a limited basis due to the expense and hassle.

I'll step back again: I don't think people's backgrounds, race, or other circumstances should qualify for discounts at the door. I prefer a general notion of equality of opportunity over radical equity. That said -- I think we're shooting our own selves in the foot, long term, for the viability of the sport.

Wasn't this the promise of having all the condos and slopeside lodging in the first place?


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> If you don't go out west at all you will never break even on the MC pass and the Quad Packs would be a far better value no matter how many days you ski at SB.
> 
> Current price on the MC pass is $509 (I think it was lower earlier in the year). SB is the only eastern resort on the pass. So if you only use 2 days at SB, you're paying way more than the daily rate. Additional days at SB would be 50% off as an MC pass holder, but even at 10 days at SB total with MC you'd still be at around $100/day average. MC only works out well if you plan to visit at least 2-3 of the resorts that are part of the pass.


Completely agree.  I am skiing Banff area this season, and will get to ski at least 3 resorts out there.  MC was $459 a few weeks ago.


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## mikec142 (Oct 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> If you don't go out west at all you will never break even on the MC pass and the Quad Packs would be a far better value no matter how many days you ski at SB.
> 
> Current price on the MC pass is $509 (I think it was lower earlier in the year). SB is the only eastern resort on the pass. So if you only use 2 days at SB, you're paying way more than the daily rate. Additional days at SB would be 50% off as an MC pass holder, but even at 10 days at SB total with MC you'd still be at around $100/day average. MC only works out well if you plan to visit at least 2-3 of the resorts that are part of the pass.



I think MC was 449 initially and you got to add a third free day at any one resort.  So say I choose SB.  That gives me three days at SB for $449 (plus tax).  If I add a quad pack for $260 (that includes tax) that would give me 7 days at SB for $709 ($101/day).  If I added 2 more quad packs for a total of 15 ski days, it still leaves me at $82/day.  

There is clear value to me if I know I'm going out west, but right now, it doesn't seem to make sense.  I looked at the math on Ikon and Epic as well.  Unfortunately, it seems to me that if I don't know about going out west, the economics don't make sense.


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## cdskier (Oct 22, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I think MC was 449 initially and you got to add a third free day at any one resort.  So say I choose SB.  That gives me three days at SB for $449 (plus tax).  If I add a quad pack for $260 (that includes tax) that would give me 7 days at SB for $709 ($101/day).  If I added 2 more quad packs for a total of 15 ski days, it still leaves me at $82/day.



Are those 15 ski days just for you? If so, a season pass at that point is a better value. Right now an SB season pass is $1200 (and we're already at the 2nd price increase for it I think). One benefit of an SB pass is also that you get 50% off prices at all the other Mountain Collective resorts. So in a situation where you're not sure whether you're going west or not, that benefit being there at no extra cost either way could work out. Of course in the east you're locking yourself into SB, but by buying so many quad packs you're doing the same thing anyway.



> There is clear value to me if I know I'm going out west, but right now, it doesn't seem to make sense.  I looked at the math on Ikon and Epic as well.  Unfortunately, it seems to me that if I don't know about going out west, the economics don't make sense.



Yea, if you don't know for sure it makes the decision more challenging. No doubt about it.


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## mikec142 (Oct 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Are those 15 ski days just for you? If so, a season pass at that point is a better value. Right now an SB season pass is $1200 (and we're already at the 2nd price increase for it I think). One benefit of an SB pass is also that you get 50% off prices at all the other Mountain Collective resorts. So in a situation where you're not sure whether you're going west or not, that benefit being there at no extra cost either way could work out. Of course in the east you're locking yourself into SB, but by buying so many quad packs you're doing the same thing anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, if you don't know for sure it makes the decision more challenging. No doubt about it.



Right now, I buy between 12-20 days via quad pack for SB and split them among me, my wife and two teenage kids.  Let's say, at best, that 10 of the days at SB are used by me.  Tough to go the season pass route.

I truly love skiing at SB.  But living 5.5 hours away and having kids with active social lives and a wife who likes to ski but doesn't love to ski, makes it hard to make a commitment to any of the passes.

I envy your commitment to making the trip on a regular basis.  It seems like you have a place up there (super jealous) which makes things easier.  Hopefully someday...gotta pay for college first. 

FWIW, no matter what I do, it never seems to be right.  So last year, I woulda have come out on top if I bought the Ikon pass for me and two quad packs for the family.  But I wasn't planning on going to Utah and it happened last minute.  Plus, last year, I overbought quad packs and locked myself into SB and didn't get to ski MRG.  This year I bought 60% of the quad packs as the previous year and mark my words, we will have used them up by the end of Christmas (assuming good snow) and then I'll be stuck!!


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## Plowboy (Oct 22, 2019)

Not sure if this has been posted??  Bethel Mountain Road(Camp Brook road) is finally open!!!


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 22, 2019)

Plowboy said:


> Not sure if this has been posted??  Bethel Mountain Road(Camp Brook road) is finally open!!!



I'm just gonna assume I'll be mud-bogging the Subie just the same as when it was "closed" ...

2 years ago I was up on that road with an Xterra and the X turned around. I made it in the Legacy GT :lol: ... no damage to speak of, a good bit of mud though. Those washboard ruts were killer but even with lowering spring the Subie handled it.


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## 1dog (Oct 22, 2019)

Bethel Mt Road - pretty frost-heaved - but not dirt - are we talking about Rox Gap Rd? 

East side of that can get rutty in the flats - my Saab does it w snows - as long as one stays on the topf of the rut lines - very challenging - look forward to it - kinda like a little too much speed in Rumble Woods . . .  or even top of Grotto


Did they re-pave BMR?


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## 1dog (Oct 22, 2019)

miklec142,

you'd fit in nicely at our ski house - most of us - no wait - all of us have sometimes ski-spouses, teens w full social and school schedules, and  2/3 of the 3/4  weekends a month we are spouse-free. 


If you purchased early season pass your 10 days would be at $85  ( $850, or was it $799?)

1st year my 16 yr old didn't get a pass at $369 - she skied 3 days due to competition in club sports back home.

It's not an ad for the house  ( I have one on this forum) but for $2500 or so you get a place to stay Nov-April and a pass, and mid week it;s all empty for those fortunate enough to take time. Maybe next year - 5 hours - we have 3.5 - needs an early start Fri and a very early start Monday morning - coming that far its best to travel with friends to split driving too. 

I've had that never gotting it right feeling too - one year - when she got pregant with my 9 yr old  - was 1st and only year I purchased season pass for her - they reimbursed us - thats how they treat loyal customers - always have. I ate 4 Quad passes last year after giving some to customers and two more to friends/guests. Happens too often. Still $65 right? 

Anyway - come up as guests some weekend - cheap way to go. Got teens and good cooks too. 

I purchased MC two yrs ago - got 7 'free' at Revel/Lake Loiuse/Sunshine - record snow year there. My ski house group who came with us - just paid half price w no May outlay of $400 early pass price.

Each place was apprx $100 so I'm going with half price rom now on.


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## cdskier (Oct 22, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Right now, I buy between 12-20 days via quad pack for SB and split them among me, my wife and two teenage kids.  Let's say, at best, that 10 of the days at SB are used by me.  Tough to go the season pass route.
> 
> I truly love skiing at SB.  But living 5.5 hours away and having kids with active social lives and a wife who likes to ski but doesn't love to ski, makes it hard to make a commitment to any of the passes.
> 
> I envy your commitment to making the trip on a regular basis.  It seems like you have a place up there (super jealous) which makes things easier.  Hopefully someday...gotta pay for college first.



That scenario does make it tough to go the season pass route. I bought a place up there 8 years ago which does make things easier. I live 5 hours away, but no kids and no wife so that certainly makes things a little simpler in terms of planning. As long as the weather looks good, I can just go. First year I had the condo I only skied 9 days at SB (combination of a terrible winter that ended early along with trying to "plan" too much). I learned from those mistakes and now I've hit 40+ days in 5 of the 7 seasons since then.


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## Plowboy (Oct 22, 2019)

1dog said:


> Bethel Mt Road - pretty frost-heaved - but not dirt - are we talking about Rox Gap Rd?
> 
> East side of that can get rutty in the flats - my Saab does it w snows - as long as one stays on the topf of the rut lines - very challenging - look forward to it - kinda like a little too much speed in Rumble Woods . . .  or even top of Grotto
> 
> ...



Parts have been repaved, a big section just above Rochester was totally redone. We went over Friday and Saturday, It's in pretty good shape.


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## WinS (Oct 23, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Incorrect.  The water for South was pumped from Clay Brook at the Golf Course and there was a small intake at the old gondola building.  South had very little snowmaking then.  Les built the Mad River intake and pond and put in snowmaking all over the mountain.  North was the snowmaking mountain of SB before Les.



Correct


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## WinS (Oct 23, 2019)

I do not look at Alpine Zone during the warmer months that frequently but will start to again as opening day approaches. If anyone wants to reach out directly my email is wsmith@sugarbush.com. Think Snow!

And yes, the Quad Pack is good for those who only visit here a few days each season. There are no blackouts and they are transferable.
It pays to shop. Skiing has become very affordable if you search. The MC is a great deal for those chasing the powder.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 24, 2019)

without a doubt others will chime in, but your willingness to chat with us internet ski aficionados is greatly appreciated.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

WinS said:


> And yes, the Quad Pack is good for those who only visit here a few days each season. There are no blackouts and they are transferable. It pays to shop. Skiing has become very affordable if you search. The MC is a great deal for those chasing the powder.



$70 a day for a $279 quad pack is almost as bad as $129 walk up rate.

Currently there's a few affordable options for Sugarbush that are 50% off (Ride and Ski Card, hopefully again this year), BOGO (Mountain Sports Club) or about $45 (Ski Vermont). Maybe some ski club deals too.

How about making one or two of the weekdays a "cheap ticket day" when the crowds are low?

Edit: I realize after posting this $30 Thursday at Mt Ellen. That's exactly what I'm talking about -- beautiful. I hope to work that into my plans this season. How about a $60 Tuesday for the whole place?


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> $70 a day for a $279 quad pack is almost as bad as $129 walk up rate.
> 
> Currently there's a few affordable options for Sugarbush that are 50% off (Ride and Ski Card, hopefully again this year), BOGO (Mountain Sports Club) or about $45 (Ski Vermont). Maybe some ski club deals too.



You're ok with 50% off from the Ride and Ski card,  but 46% off from a quad pack isn't good? There was a cheaper "Quad Pass" earlier as well either the end of the summer or early Fall (difference from the Quad Pack being the "Pass" is non-transferable and can only be used by 1 person).


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## mikec142 (Oct 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> You're ok with 50% off from the Ride and Ski card,  but 46% off from a quad pack isn't good? There was a cheaper "Quad Pass" earlier as well either the end of the summer or early Fall (difference from the Quad Pack being the "Pass" is non-transferable and can only be used by 1 person).



Yeah...I thought Tuna's post was odd..."$70 is almost as bad as walk up of $129".  That's some pretty funky new math there.

Earlier in the season there was the four pass for $239.  Kicker being non-transferable and need to be used by the same person.  Which for me is perfect.  Then there was the loyalty quad pack for previous buyers for $259 (fully transferable) and now we are at the normal quad pack at $279.

Also, the Ski and Ride card...does it have blackout dates?  I'm assuming it does (could be wrong).

Bottom line is the quad packs from Sugarbush in any of the iterations is a pretty good deal for non-blackout tickets.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Yeah...I thought Tuna's post was odd



Comes naturally

Ride and Ski Card 50% off is only good for weekdays. So it's half off a lower rate, probably around $50 or so. Sugarbush is on my no-no list on weekends due to lift lines and crowds.

If someone who owns a ski resort wants to come on the forum that's fine, it's ultimately his job to passively defend having a $129 window rate and point out there are less expensive options.

46% off $129 is still 46% off $129. Just raise the price to $200 and call it 70% off, sounds better right.

I have no problem being the biggest cheapskate if that's how it is


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## crazy (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Comes naturally
> 
> Ride and Ski Card 50% off is only good for weekdays. So it's half off a lower rate, probably around $50 or so. Sugarbush is on my no-no list on weekends due to lift lines and crowds.
> 
> ...



If you bought the 4-pack over the summer it was just under $60/ticket. That feels very reasonable to me for a large, multimillion dollar operation like Sugarbush that has tons of terrain, one of the biggest vertical drops in the east, a quality snowmaking system, fancy lodges (at least at Lincoln), etc. There are plenty of smaller, struggling ski resorts who lack some of the things that I just mentioned, but who have plenty to offer, who would love your business. For a lot less. You are the one choosing to go to one of the big resorts! 

Look, if you can commit to one resort for the season, you can get an incredible per day rate. If you can't commit to one resort, it costs more. I don't see a problem with that. For example, if you're a 40 year old skier who visits Sugarbush 25 times in a season, your per day rate is $34. That's stupid cheap. If you're younger than 40 or older than 65, your per day rate is already going to be a lot lower. 

We're moving to a system where you can get fantastic deals by assuming some risk. If you don't assume any risk, you pay more. For people that ski a lot, this system generally works out pretty well. Resort season passes, multi-resort passes (Epic, Ikon), deals like the Ski VT 4 pack and the MyChamplainValley card, and Liftopia deals represent very reasonable ways to ski affordably. 

Plus, let's talk about the elephant in the room: skiing requires a lot more expense than just the lift tickets! Gear is expensive, especially if we're talking about people who are new to the sport. Transportation is very expensive. Not just gas, but depreciation is a hidden expense that few consider. Also opportunity cost: if skiing affects your decisions around where to live, what job to take, that all has a cost.

I don't feel any special compulsion to defend Sugarbush, I just feel like these ticket price arguments get blown way out of proportion.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

I mainly do go where I can go affordably. Bolton Valley and Burke get a lot of visits from me on that exact point.

I go to S-bush on average 1x a year, I'll probably do so again on a Ski VT pass this spring.

Stand by the point that $129 tickets in Vermont is laughable. It seems like Stowe gets more heat for jacking prices than Sugarbush, I think it's mainly a loyal base of season pass holders here who like to defend S-Bush.

Anyway, I'm gonna back out of this thread -- as a 1x a year S-bush skier I have very little stake in this. Also I intend to avoid pointless arguments if I'm back on AlpineZone for a while. I like the threads about glades and woods a lot better. Seeya!


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## mikec142 (Oct 24, 2019)

crazy said:


> If you bought the 4-pack over the summer it was just under $60/ticket. That feels very reasonable to me for a large, multimillion dollar operation like Sugarbush that has tons of terrain, one of the biggest vertical drops in the east, a quality snowmaking system, fancy lodges (at least at Lincoln), etc. There are plenty of smaller, struggling ski resorts who lack some of the things that I just mentioned, but who have plenty to offer, who would love your business. For a lot less. You are the one choosing to go to one of the big resorts!
> 
> Look, if you can commit to one resort for the season, you can get an incredible per day rate. If you can't commit to one resort, it costs more. I don't see a problem with that. For example, if you're a 40 year old skier who visits Sugarbush 25 times in a season, your per day rate is $34. That's stupid cheap. If you're younger than 40 or older than 65, your per day rate is already going to be a lot lower.
> 
> ...



Agree completely.  Well said.


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Ride and Ski Card 50% off is only good for weekdays. So it's half off a lower rate, probably around $50 or so. Sugarbush is on my no-no list on weekends due to lift lines and crowds.


Actually the weekday rate is the same as the weekend rate now. Holidays are the only time there's a different rate (last year it was 119 non-holiday vs 129 holiday). So no, you won't be paying around $50 or so for a mid-week day even with a 50% off Ski and Ride card. Other than the Ski VT deal (which sells out in minutes), you're really not going to find a better deal at SB for day tickets than one of the "Quad" products. And everyone I personally know that purchases/uses them finds them pretty reasonable for a resort the size of SB.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Actually the weekday rate is the same as the weekend rate now.



okie doke y'all enjoy!


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## mikec142 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hey Tuna,

Not to pile on, but to be clear, you can ski Bolton and Burke for less than you can at SB, but it's not the same overall package.

I love BV.  That's where my kids learned to ski.  Had a fantastic ski day there this past President's Day weekend.  But there is a major difference in snowmaking, grooming, facilities, lifts, etc. etc.  

To some, that might not matter at all.  But to others, it's a big deal.


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> I mainly do go where I can go affordably. Bolton Valley and Burke get a lot of visits from me on that exact point.
> 
> I go to S-bush on average 1x a year, I'll probably do so again on a Ski VT pass this spring.
> 
> Stand by the point that $129 tickets in Vermont is laughable. It seems like Stowe gets more heat for jacking prices than Sugarbush, I think it's mainly a loyal base of season pass holders here who like to defend S-Bush.



I also go where I can go affordably. And for me SB normally works out to under $20 a day. Hard to say that is expensive. But I opted to be loyal to a particular resort and was rewarded for that. Like crazy said, I also see no problem with a resort opting to reward their loyal customers instead of ones just looking to ski for nothing a couple times a year.

As for the $129 rate, I tend to think it is a bit high, but I also firmly believe you don't have a lot of people paying that rate anyway so the argument about it is largely pointless. And if your closest competitors/neighbors are charging that rate (or higher) for a walk up day ticket, why should you be substantially cheaper than them?


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

well not to "come back to the thread" when I said I was gonna leave...

But I can't ski 111 trails in a single day. There's only 25% of terrain at Sugarbush I'm really motivated to even go there occasionally for.

Bolton has many advantages too: 1) no lift lines... 2) park near by... 3) trails are less skied off and more consistent conditions... 4) woods are fresher and more snowfall... 5) facilities aren't crowded for lunch

Burke doesn't have quite the same advantage as Bolton but 1, 2 and 5 certainly as well.

Advantages for Sugarbush? 1) faster lifts (not Castlerock though, and possibility of lines or long lines) ... 2) most would say overall better terrain.

I ski Bolton Valley on average 3x a year so it's a pretty solid decision for me, if it was nearby I might even consider getting a pass. I should stop talking about Bolton probably...

EDIT: CDskier just to get you in here before I try to bounce again... If you are a season pass guy, and happy to pay $1000 or whatever for one mountain to ski 50 times in a season, well good for you, you've got it worked out. Probably some day I'll end up doing the same one way or another. For me 1/2 the excitement in skiing is going to places that feel new, or I've been yearning to return to for a while. Thus I rarely ski any area more than 3-4 times a season, Killington probably gets the most visits from me because of their long season, available discounts, and not being too far away.

So anyway I pay about $400-$500 for tickets a season, get in about 25-30 days, and probably ski 18 different places in a season. Different approach.

Go to Boston Ski Show I'm sure Bolton will be handing out $39 coupons in unlimited quantities.


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## mikec142 (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> well not to "come back to the thread" when I said I was gonna leave...
> 
> But I can't ski 111 trails in a single day. There's only 25% of terrain at Sugarbush I'm really motivated to even go there occasionally for.
> 
> ...



Tuna,

FWIW, I'm enjoying this conversation so I don't want you to think that I'm being contentious.  But...

Bolton (again I love it) has short lift lines, but very slow lifts.  Problematic on cold days.  Vista seems to be on windhold more than any other lift I've experienced.  Plus, Wilderness and Timberline aren't open all the time so the terrain is cut down significantly.

As much as I love SB, I agree that I like to get to MRG, Stowe, BV, Gore as well.  Variety is a good thing.  One can be a loyal SB skier and try other places.

As to $400-500/year for 25-30 days...that seems to stretch my imagination.  Even if you're doing a ton of midweek skiing (not so easy for me), that cost seems light.  If you're tracking it accurately and those are your numbers, more power to you.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Tuna,
> 
> FWIW, I'm enjoying this conversation so I don't want you to think that I'm being contentious.  But...



No worries wasn't taking it any other way



mikec142 said:


> Bolton (again I love it) has short lift lines, but very slow lifts.  Problematic on cold days.  Vista seems to be on windhold more than any other lift I've experienced.  Plus, Wilderness and Timberline aren't open all the time so the terrain is cut down significantly.



Yes very slow lifts, but Castlerock and Madonna 1 aren't hot rods either. I usually ski bell to bell at Bolton and leave very satisfied with my day. Wilderness and Timberline are issues I hope they work on, especially Wilderness which really has no excuse not to be open (it's full elevation after all). Timberline needs a little extra time to open. At least they're pretty clear on the snow report about what to expect. I've never shown up and been surprised in the wrong way.



mikec142 said:


> As to $400-500/year for 25-30 days...that seems to stretch my imagination.  Even if you're doing a ton of midweek skiing (not so easy for me), that cost seems light.  If you're tracking it accurately and those are your numbers, more power to you.



$180 Ski Vermont = 4 tickets I'll use at the expensive places ie Stowe, Sugarbush, and a couple quick-drive Southern VT days ie Stratton and maybe Bromley because I like it there

$185 MyChamplainValley = 1x each: Burke, Bretton, Gore, Whiteface, Mad River Glen, Smuggs, Magic, probably will ski Middlebury this year

We're up to 12 days and $365... not looking too good! So I get Ride and Ski Card for $30 at the Boston Ski Show and with that probably get 1x Berkshire East pass included.

13 days $395. Let's say I go to Bolton x3 for $112, I'm at 16 days $500. I can do Mt Ellen on a Thursday and be at 17 days for $530. Probably do a couple 1/2 off weekdays at Berkshire East so let's say we're around $600 for 19 days.

Bad math and correct to call me out. Still in the ballpark though. I'll probably do a day or two at Mount Snow and pony up about $48 on those passes too. Can't expect much more than 20 days this season with a kid turning 2 and a lot of commitments.


edit again: my easiest days off this season are going to be Monday, Thursday and Friday... so that helps. Can even do Magic Throwback Thursday and the Cannon cheap Thursday deal


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> well not to "come back to the thread" when I said I was gonna leave...
> 
> But I can't ski 111 trails in a single day. There's only 25% of terrain at Sugarbush I'm really motivated to even go there occasionally for.


To be fair, the "I can't ski xxx trails in a single day" comment is pretty irrelevant as it applies to most mid to large resorts. At least I have the choice of which 111 trails I want to ski though. No one bases their prices on how much of their terrain you can ski in a particular day.



> Bolton has many advantages too: 1) no lift lines... 2) park near by... 3) trails are less skied off and more consistent conditions... 4) woods are fresher and more snowfall... 5) facilities aren't crowded for lunch



Considering you said you only ski SB midweek, I don't see how 1, 2, and 5 are considered advantages as you'd have no issues midweek at SB with those either.




> EDIT: CDskier just to get you in here before I try to bounce again... If you are a season pass guy, and happy to pay $1000 or whatever for one mountain to ski 50 times in a season, well good for you, you've got it worked out. Probably some day I'll end up doing the same one way or another. For me 1/2 the excitement in skiing is going to places that feel new, or I've been yearning to return to for a while. Thus I rarely ski any area more than 3-4 times a season, Killington probably gets the most visits from me because of their long season, available discounts, and not being too far away.
> 
> So anyway I pay about $400-$500 for tickets a season, get in about 25-30 days, and probably ski 18 different places in a season. Different approach.



I've been there and done that method as well. For me the only real day trip options are the Catskills. VT or Adirondacks require a weekend trip. So right there my costs are going up with that method even if lift tickets were all equally priced across the board. So back when I used to do that, VT resorts (or Gore or Whiteface in NY) were places I'd overall only visit 2-3x per season. I finally decided I'd prefer to "settle down" somewhere. So I picked Sugarbush as it was my favorite out of all places I'd tried and also a place that I felt I wouldn't be easily bored at because of how much it has to offer. No regrets. I love having the flexibility to go whenever I want and not have to worry about searching for lodging (or ticket deals). And I can still do random trips to other places if I want. Technically with a condo by SB I could day trip to quite a few other places (although it is really hard to drive right by SB and drive 1-2 hours somewhere else).

FWIW, my pass is also under $600 because I'm in the "30s" age range. Even when I hit the full price pass in another couple years, I still wouldn't complain about ~$1000 to ski 40+ days.


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## Orca (Oct 24, 2019)

Costs for skiing are substantial for many people, and dedicated skiers do work to manage the expense. Nonetheless, I wonder if reading individuals on this forum competing back and forth to justify their financial approach to skiing and subjective valuations of different experiences is uninteresting to other people too.

I like Sugarbush plenty, have a pass, etc. But at $129 for a day ticket, I'm never going to invite friends to ski with me. I'd be very reluctant to obligate them to spend so much, and I'd be embarrassed by the cost to value ratio given that I ski enough to know what the "average" weekend day is like. Think Saturday, with the inevitable lift lines, variable weather, ice from eastern thaw-freeze cycles, mobbed lodge where you can't find a place to sit. Sugarbush is nice, but it's not that nice.


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## Hawk (Oct 25, 2019)

I think I have come to the realization that I am not like most of the people on here.  I really don't have a season pass to save money although to really do save a lot of money considering I ski 60 days.  I have the pass because I want to ski at a place and be part of the culture at the resort.  I love the friendships I have gathered and I love skiing and skinning with my friends.  I love going to the bar at the end of the day and knowing more than 50% of the people in there.  I love the after parties that occur all across the valley every weekend.  I love ski in ski out and not having to be in the car all weekend.  I love covert missions on skins at night.  (don't tell win!   ;-)  And most of all I love the calmness and the beauty of the area all year round.  Mountain Biking and hiking in the summer at just as good as the sking in the winter.  Well almost.  LOL  
I could never be bothered with all the chasing around with vouchers and different mountains.  Too much work, too much driving for limited rewards.  That's not to say that the SkiVT card and MRV 3 pack is not a purchase I make.  I do.  But that is just a supplement to what I already have.  That's me.


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## Orca (Oct 25, 2019)

https://www.channel3000.com/news/long-time-vermont-battery-producer-moving-to-wisconsin/1135691036

I wonder if this has anything to do with Vermont being relatively anti-business.


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## 1dog (Oct 25, 2019)

Hawk, 

You might not appear to be like most people who are posting pricing on this string, but I'm sure there are a lot who share the same sentiment.   They're reading, just not posting.

I'm in your camp for instance - except I skin via Slibebrook so as not to upset the cats on the hill - tho I have winter camped up on NL pod for a 1st thing AM powder run once - shhhhhhhh.

Got friends and other ski houses we hang with, and as much as I like to vist Jay, Magic , Smuggs and NH each year for 4 or 5 days, its the valley and the terrain and the people here - including MRG of course. 

at 25-30 days $28-$35 ain't expensive in 2019. 

 i get the different areas and terrain and exploring new or old terrain. 

If all lifts are working, one can avoid lines with the same kind of planning as is used to get deals at other areas - no one is gonna convince me that the upslope and lake effect snows we get that aren't always counted (Bush is now recognized as understating snow fall amounts) don't provide a superior experience to most other Ice Coast areas - maybe with the exception of Jay regarding snow - but not backcountry terrain. Or for that matter regular trails. 

Started years ago in NH, then K-Mart and somehow always ended up here more than anywhere else - so we've been staples since '93.


We're happy to have everyone and we're even happier people need other experiences. Choices are a great freedom we sometimes take for granted.

I try not to.


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## cdskier (Oct 25, 2019)

I'm not so sure if any of the people with season passes are saying they do it specifically to save money. That's a bonus of having a pass in my opinion. While I may be saving money on skiing itself with a pass compared to years ago, I'm still overall probably spending the same or more because there are expenses involved with owning a condo. But I love the convenience of having my own place where I can just leave all my stuff and not have to worry about carting it around. And I can use it year-round whenever I want. I personally don't make it up in the non-winter months anywhere near as much as during ski season (it is just much harder to justify a 5 hour drive for summer activities vs skiing in the winter). But I still at least have the option to go anytime I want.

Personally I've never been a big "hang out in the bar for apres" type of person. I'd rather go back to my condo and relax a bit before either cooking a nice dinner or going out somewhere in the valley for dinner. I do love the valley itself and often feel like I know more people up there than I do here at home in NJ. The valley itself was absolutely a factor in why I chose Sugarbush as my "home" mountain. I love the mountain itself, but the surrounding area is pretty much perfect for my tastes. It isn't too commercialized or crowded like some other areas. But there's still plenty of places to go out for a nice dinner or even just a good burger.


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## mikec142 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hawk,

Not sure we are that far apart.  But probably at different points on the same path.  Everything you said resonates deeply with me.  Even though we are over five hours away, I consider Sugarbush to be my “home” mountain and I ski there more than anywhere else season after season.  There are many reasons for this...even though there are many places to ski that are much closer to home, I make the trek to SB  because I find the combination of terrain, friendliness, activities, community and vibe to be unbeatable.  However, reality is still very much staring me in the face.  Both my wife and I work full time and we have teenage kids with active and diverse social lives.  We have two college tuitions coming up in the very near future.  Juggling all these factors takes some effort.  So while I would love to be able to buy a place or move to the MRV, for now we make do as best as possible with regular trips up there.  FWIW, I would go every weekend, but I’m not the only one who has a vote.

So to bring it all together, I’ll be up there on a much more regular basis eventually and in the meantime, I’m going to continue to take advantage of the quad packs that make sense for my situation.  Save me a seat at the bar.


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## Smellytele (Oct 25, 2019)

I am different than you for sure. I hate skiing with a lot of other people because I hate waiting , I hate skiing trails and ski areas I don’t want to ski. I like variety but do also have a season pass and split my time 50-50. I don’t have to drive more than 2:00 to any ski area I want to ski. I like a good bar but also like variety there as well. Love skinning alone.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 25, 2019)

the idea of skiing with other people aside from about 5 friends who rip hard and ski anything is just awful. every time i get roped into a group lodging ski thing, i wind up leaving the group after 1-2 runs tops. i just want to go hard all day non stop on the most challenging terrain available without compromising


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## slatham (Oct 25, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the idea of skiing with other people aside from about 5 friends who rip hard and ski anything is just awful. every time i get roped into a group lodging ski thing, i wind up leaving the group after 1-2 runs tops. i just want to go hard all day non stop on the most challenging terrain available without compromising



Ah yes the good old modified powder clause. 

"There are no friends on a powder day". 

I'm sorry, you must have miss heard me. 

"There are no friends on a ski day"!


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## Los (Oct 25, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the idea of skiing with other people aside from about 5 friends who rip hard and ski anything is just awful. every time i get roped into a group lodging ski thing, i wind up leaving the group after 1-2 runs tops. i just want to go hard all day non stop on the most challenging terrain available without compromising



lol you’re so hard core


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## mbedle (Oct 26, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I think I have come to the realization that I am not like most of the people on here.  I really don't have a season pass to save money although to really do save a lot of money considering I ski 60 days.  I have the pass because I want to ski at a place and be part of the culture at the resort.  I love the friendships I have gathered and I love skiing and skinning with my friends.  I love going to the bar at the end of the day and knowing more than 50% of the people in there.  I love the after parties that occur all across the valley every weekend.  I love ski in ski out and not having to be in the car all weekend.  I love covert missions on skins at night.  (don't tell win!   ;-)  And most of all I love the calmness and the beauty of the area all year round.  Mountain Biking and hiking in the summer at just as good as the sking in the winter.  Well almost.  LOL
> I could never be bothered with all the chasing around with vouchers and different mountains.  Too much work, too much driving for limited rewards.  That's not to say that the SkiVT card and MRV 3 pack is not a purchase I make.  I do.  But that is just a supplement to what I already have.  That's me.



Bingo....


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2019)

I hear what all of you are saying.  Yup to each his own and it always is that way.  For those of you that say I don't like skiing with people because they slow you down or don't like the terrain you like.  I say, get better friends.  ;-)  The golden rule is no more than 4 But 3 is best in case you have an issue and need help.  Skiing alone in the woods is foolish in my opinion and I never do that.  But I can respect that some people totally get off on the solitude.  It's who they are and if they are willing to look past the risk, then I guess that is their thing and I can't argue with that.

Myself and the people I ski with pretty much just ski woods, side country and less traveled areas.  We are all equally matched and ski at a good clip.  We all know the mountain and have meeting up points on certain runs.  So no one is held up.

I would say that after skiing Sugarbush for about 15 years now full time, there are very few places I have not ventured to or passed by.  There is a lot that the common skier just passes by.  It's what makes things really great once the snow flies and you can ski the woods.


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## mikec142 (Oct 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I would say that after skiing Sugarbush for about 15 years now full time, there are very few places I have not ventured to or passed by.  There is a lot that the common skier just passes by.  It's what makes things really great once the snow flies and you can ski the woods.



I'm still somewhat of a Sugarbush neophyte.  But what you wrote above is one of the many reasons that I find SB to be a special place.  Been skiing there regularly for 5-6 years now.  The past two years I've spent more time exploring the woods and every single time I'm up there I find a new experience.  Unfortunately for me, many times I'm up there alone and am hesitant to jump into Slidebrook (never done it) without a companion.  Last season, I rode the Castlerock lift with a local and he was kind enough to lead me through the trees about halfway down on the skier's right of Middle Earth.  I would have never found that on my own.  The opening to get into the trees was microscopic.  I'm looking forward to taking a guide/lesson this season to get into Slidebrook with someone who knows the terrain and can show me the ropes.


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## Orca (Oct 28, 2019)

Hawk, it's been a pleasure skiing with you over the last several years. Looking forward to this winter and sharing some quality time in the woods again.


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2019)

Orca said:


> Hawk, it's been a pleasure skiing with you over the last several years. Looking forward to this winter and sharing some quality time in the woods again.



Oh man.  Now this is going to twist my brain.  I don't think I have made this connection yet.


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2019)

Thanks for the PM Orca.  I don't know if you guys ever told me your handles.  I had a feeling it was you though.

Now this guy is one that I see all the time in the woods.  He knows his sugarbush stuff for sure.  
And yes we will do more runs this year.


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## cdskier (Oct 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I hear what all of you are saying.  Yup to each his own and it always is that way.  For those of you that say I don't like skiing with people because they slow you down or don't like the terrain you like.  I say, get better friends.  ;-)  The golden rule is no more than 4 But 3 is best in case you have an issue and need help.  Skiing alone in the woods is foolish in my opinion and I never do that.  But I can respect that some people totally get off on the solitude.  It's who they are and if they are willing to look past the risk, then I guess that is their thing and I can't argue with that.



I can see both sides. My biggest problem in skiing with others is finding someone around the same level as me. I'm nowhere near as good as some here in the woods and I always feel guilty about holding other people back. I also enjoy stopping a decent amount to take photos which would probably drive some people nuts. Sometimes I'm with someone at the right level and it works out well so I can push myself a bit more to go places I wouldn't go alone. On trail I don't mind being by myself at all. I find it peaceful and love being able to make every decision on where to go myself. In the woods I prefer not to be by myself, but I've done it before mainly in more well known areas.

On another note, anyone read Win's blog recently? Interesting comment about trying a different snowmaking plan at LP this year:


> Over at Lincoln Peak we are planning to do something different this year. If temperatures permit, we will focus on the Gate House terrain first in order to have both beginner and intermediate terrain open as early as possible and then put extra capacity to work on Snowball and Spring Fling. If the temperatures do not permit, we will work from the summit down.



We'll have to see how that works out and what the exact plan ends up being, but my initial reaction isn't overly excited about that. We'll see.


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## 1dog (Oct 28, 2019)

They have the more advanced customers come early and GH doesn't satisfy that customer - maybe they are expecting to get both open within a couple cays of each other.

I'm sure the faithful customer has family who want less challenging terrain but the weather will probably dictate top down from summit anyway.


After all, how many intermediate/beginners are out in November as a % of all the customers who come Nov 15- Dec 15?

Cold weather and a couple feet of snow make this subject evaporate. 

But if there is an early thaw and Spring/Snowball doesn't hold up  . . . . . .


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## ss20 (Oct 28, 2019)

1dog said:


> They have the more advanced customers come early and GH doesn't satisfy that customer - maybe they are expecting to get both open within a couple cays of each other.
> 
> After all, how many intermediate/beginners are out in November as a % of all the customers who come Nov 15- Dec 15?



This argument comes up time and time again in the early season discussion and I've never understood it.  Rime/Reason at Killington is (in my opinion) borderline low-intermediate terrain for Killington (compared to Bittersweet, Bearclaw, Vagabond to name a few).  Bretton opens with that flat wide beginner trail under the lift.  Wildcat on the beginner Polecat.  SR has T2 which is moderately steep, to be fair.  

All this to say I think people are just happy to be sliding in October/November, terrain be damned.  I'd take three flat trails over one steep trail on opening day.  Unless we get crazy natural snow, the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).


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## mister moose (Oct 28, 2019)

ss20 said:


> the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).


Sorta.  The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade).  The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam.  The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.


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## Orca (Oct 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Thanks for the PM Orca.  I don't know if you guys ever told me your handles.  I had a feeling it was you though.
> 
> Now this guy is one that I see all the time in the woods.  He knows his sugarbush stuff for sure.
> And yes we will do more runs this year.



Absolutely, my friend. Looking forward to compounding snowfalls that open the woods for us. May it be sooner than later.


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## ss20 (Oct 28, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Sorta.  The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade).  The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam.  The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.



Ah yes...it always slips my mind that Downdraft is fun for a couple weeks in November/December before it turns into the World's Steepest Ice Rink after the first rain/freeze cycle and the Killington snowmaking team abandons it.


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## Hawk (Oct 29, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Sorta.  The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade).  The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam.  The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.



I don't know about that.  At Sugarbush typically there is only cold enough temps upper mountain and they tend to start with the Heavens Gate chair.  That usually means Upper Organ Grinder and Upper Jester down to Downspout and down loading until they can get lower terrain open.  Upper OG is as steep and longer than either of those runs.


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## skiur (Oct 29, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Sorta.  The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade).  The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam.  The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.



Mousetrap normally opens before LEF, not as long but I would say just as steep......but then again its not a black anymore so maybe its less steep than it used to be


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## Newpylong (Oct 29, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I don't know about that.  At Sugarbush typically there is only cold enough temps upper mountain and they tend to start with the Heavens Gate chair.  That usually means Upper Organ Grinder and Upper Jester down to Downspout and down loading until they can get lower terrain open.  Upper OG is as steep and longer than either of those runs.



The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.

East Fall is similar in pitch to OG, but obviously nowhere near the length.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.



I laugh every time I see anyone reference a trail with a "headwall" at Killington


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## Hawk (Oct 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.
> 
> East Fall is similar in pitch to OG, but obviously nowhere near the length.



But we are talking early season.  Sugarbush always has OG open first as this is the higher altitude terrain.  I ski Killington basically every year early season.  They never have Downdraft or East Fall open before OG so I would not conside them opening trails.  This was about opening day steep trails right?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 29, 2019)

ss20 said:


> This argument comes up time and time again in the early season discussion and I've never understood it.  Rime/Reason at Killington is (in my opinion) borderline low-intermediate terrain for Killington (compared to Bittersweet, Bearclaw, Vagabond to name a few).  Bretton opens with that flat wide beginner trail under the lift.  Wildcat on the beginner Polecat.  SR has T2 which is moderately steep, to be fair.
> 
> All this to say I think people are just happy to be sliding in October/November, terrain be damned.  I'd take three flat trails over one steep trail on opening day.  Unless we get crazy natural snow, the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).


Wildcat opens with Lynx, not Polecat.  I'm biased, but IMO it's the best opening trail at any Eastern ski area.  2100 vert of consistent blue to black pitch with no run out.  

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## cdskier (Oct 29, 2019)

Now that some others have weighed in, here's the way I see it. Your core early season demographic is your "die hard" type skier. Sure you don't need a trail like Stein's open first, but you should definitely have intermediate to advanced terrain available (I think the current mix of OG, Jester, Spring Fling as some of the key early trails is pretty damn good). Even simply encouraging beginner/intermediate skiers to come out earlier is risky imo because they could be disappointed with the experience (too crowded trails, too many more advanced skiers sharing the trails with them if options are limited, early season conditions, etc).

Now of course as this is a thought on a new strategy, we don't know exactly how it will play out yet. In an ideal world you have about 3 weeks of time to make snow before opening day. If weather cooperated, you could get the Spring Fling/Snowball combo AND at least 1 way down GH open which would be fine to spread the different levels of skiers out. That's a big if though. Historically speaking we haven't been quite that lucky with enough good temps down low where that would work though from what I recall.

So let's play out another scenario. You only have good temps up top and make snow on the Jester/DS/OG routes. Now you get good temps down low after you made enough up top. Does it still make sense to now focus on GH first instead of creating a T2B route from the upper mountain terrain? If you do that, you have uploading/downloading on SB so people can get to HG to ski that terrain plus you're running the GH lift for that terrain. I'm obviously a bit biased, but I think at least 1 T2B route off SB/HG should be the primary focus. If you then want to switch to GH next instead of expanding further off the SB pod, that's acceptable I think. Just my 2 cents and curious to see how this ends up working out and what the exact plan ends up being.


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## Newpylong (Oct 29, 2019)

Hawk said:


> But we are talking early season.  Sugarbush always has OG open first as this is the higher altitude terrain.  I ski Killington basically every year early season.  They never have Downdraft or East Fall open before OG so I would not conside them opening trails.  This was about opening day steep trails right?



As soon as Great Northern is open to get you from K1 down to North Ridge, Downdraft is usually open as well. In 9/10 years, this is before Sugarbush is open.

Yes, East Fall comes much later on for K. Not early season by any means.


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## slatham (Oct 29, 2019)

First of all, my read of the statement is that if the first cold snap is significant enough to make "enough" snow on Gate House, then that would be the FIRST place lit up. So this scenario is a deep, multi-day event where they believe they can lay enough snow to open GH. Then they move on.

But the question is what next? IMHO, IF the next cold snap was deep/long enough, I presume they would go Snowball/Spring Fling, and then Valley House Traverse. Connect the two pods at the base. Then go to summit.

So a complete reversal of past years.

But the real question, the one that is likely to be faced, is what cdskier raised above. 

"You only have good temps up top and make snow on the Jester/DS/OG routes. Now you get good temps down low after you made enough up top. Does it still make sense to now focus on GH first instead of creating a T2B route from the upper mountain terrain? If you do that, you have uploading/downloading on SB so people can get to HG to ski that terrain plus you're running the GH lift for that terrain."

This is the rub. Two major cold waves (or one long enough for GH+SF/SB/VHT) with no intermediate opportunities to make snow at the summit is a unicorn.

The reality is you will have opportunities where the only place to make snow is the summit. And  then you come across this dilemma - go TTB, or go to GH and have 2 pods with downloading on Bravo.

Not an easy decision, and obviously very situational based on forecast, how deep into the fall we are, etc. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. And we won't be waiting long - pattern is changing and temps arrive this weekend, at least at the summit


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## Hawk (Oct 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> As soon as Great Northern is open to get you from K1 down to North Ridge, Downdraft is usually open as well. In 9/10 years, this is before Sugarbush is open.
> 
> Yes, East Fall comes much later on for K. Not early season by any means.



You are saying that Downdraft has been open from Great Northern to the bottom of the canyon quad before Sugarbush opens the last 9 of 10 years?  Maybe a couple of times.  Not last year or the year before.  I skied sugarbush last year on Saturday and K on Sunday and downdraft was not open.


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## Smellytele (Oct 29, 2019)

Hawk said:


> You are saying that Downdraft has been open from Great Northern to the bottom of the canyon quad before Sugarbush opens the last 9 of 10 years?  Maybe a couple of times.  Not last year or the year before.  I skied sugarbush last year on Saturday and K on Sunday and downdraft was not open.



I think downdraft headwall at the top down to Gr No is what they are talking about. Not down from GN to the canyon quad 


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## Newpylong (Oct 29, 2019)

Yes, just the "Headwall'. Quoted several times now for  emphasis.

It is their very early season expert run, more a way to use excess water and get another route down to North Ridge early on.

Organgrinder IMHO is a better run, was just trying to say that that section of DD is pretty damn steep and is in play early.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 29, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> I laugh every time I see anyone reference a trail with a "headwall" at Killington



Vertigo Headwall is pretty fun. It's lame to call everything a headwall but at least Killington has a few spots that sort of qualify. I guess you can laugh but they use the term to describe an upper steep section on a black diamond trail. Nothing wrong with that. At least they don't call all their wider trails "bowls".

I do like the wide flat trails being called "Meadows" though


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## STREETSKIER (Oct 29, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Sounds like this year we will get on the sleeper headwall soon.


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## slatham (Oct 29, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Sounds like this year we will get on the sleeper headwall soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah yes I would imagine the trail and snowmaking work on Sleeper has something to do with the motivation to hit Gate House a bit quicker.


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## jaybird (Oct 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> As soon as Great Northern is open to get you from K1 down to North Ridge, Downdraft is usually open as well. In 9/10 years, this is before Sugarbush is open.
> 
> Yes, East Fall comes much later on for K. Not early season by any means.



Not necessarily so..
2 years ago early season when Glade triple failed, East Fall was the best descent option.
It was goopy, but no sparks flew. That Stairway doohickey is eventually gonna take its toll on one of those obnoxious K fanboys. Can't ski .. barely can walk.

Their new lift up there should make for a much more comfortable ride. 

Think Snow !


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 30, 2019)

slatham said:


> Ah yes I would imagine the trail and snowmaking work on Sleeper has something to do with the motivation to hit Gate House a bit quicker.


  Has anyone been up to see what this looks like yet?


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 1, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Looks like this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





https://

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## flakeydog (Nov 1, 2019)

New signs going in for the wider trail.  Roundabout coming soon.


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## cdskier (Nov 1, 2019)

flakeydog said:


> View attachment 25498
> 
> new signs going in for the wider trail.  Roundabout coming soon.



lol!


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## tumbler (Nov 3, 2019)

Are they making snow?


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## ducky (Nov 3, 2019)

Not yet but a dusting last night.


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## tumbler (Nov 3, 2019)

ducky said:


> Not yet but a dusting last night.



Figures


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Figures



If the temps on the website and app are updating properly and accurate, then you've barely had marginal temps at the summit even at night anytime I've looked the past couple days so far...


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## machski (Nov 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> If the temps on the website and app are updating properly and accurate, then you've barely had marginal temps at the summit even at night anytime I've looked the past couple days so far...


Well, considering K is open and pushing to expand with the ingress route off the K1 this morning, I'd say Sugarbush has at least had marginal if not better temps up on the hill.  Granted, optimum temps pop into the picture Thursday on for several days if not more this week.

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## Hawk (Nov 4, 2019)

Win does not do early season.  I wouldn't get your hope up for skiing for another 2 weeks at least.  We did not do Killington this weekend.  Trying to clean up so we are not raking with headlights in the dark mid week.  We should be at Sunday River next weekend and hopefully they are top to bottom.  It is much more sane then Killington early season.  We will probably do Killington in two weeks once they have a little more open to disburse the crowds.


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## cdskier (Nov 4, 2019)

machski said:


> Well, considering K is open and pushing to expand with the ingress route off the K1 this morning, I'd say Sugarbush has at least had marginal if not better temps up on the hill.  Granted, optimum temps pop into the picture Thursday on for several days if not more this week.



Apples and oranges... Scheduled opening day for SB is approximately 3 weeks away so why push it in marginal temps if you see a forecast with more ideal temps coming up soon? It could snow 10 feet and they wouldn't open earlier than scheduled. Like Hawk said, they're not racing to see how quickly they can open. They set a date and stick with it. As long as they think they can make enough snow in the better upcoming windows, I'm fine with them saving money in these marginal windows at this point.

Still would love to get a better webcam view that included a more zoomed in view of the HG area. There's the view from across the valley on the MRVRE webcam, but it is too wide of a shot to see if anything is going on. Summit looks white, but I'm assuming that is just from natural snow. The golf course shot is a pretty wide shot too and doesn't show the summit well either.


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## slatham (Nov 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Apples and oranges... Scheduled opening day for SB is approximately 3 weeks away so why push it in marginal temps if you see a forecast with more ideal temps coming up soon? It could snow 10 feet and they wouldn't open earlier than scheduled. Like Hawk said, they're not racing to see how quickly they can open. They set a date and stick with it. As long as they think they can make enough snow in the better upcoming windows, I'm fine with them saving money in these marginal windows at this point.
> 
> Still would love to get a better webcam view that included a more zoomed in view of the HG area. There's the view from across the valley on the MRVRE webcam, but it is too wide of a shot to see if anything is going on. Summit looks white, but I'm assuming that is just from natural snow. The golf course shot is a pretty wide shot too and doesn't show the summit well either.



I agree with everything you wrote except: "It could snow 10 feet and they wouldn't open earlier than scheduled." Win would and has in the past. Lets hope he has that decision to make.


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## Xcreamus (Nov 5, 2019)

Did y'all see the note on the website that they are going to start Gatehouse first?  I agree with it being opened early. I think most of the ski instructors would want that, as it is the terrain they need.  But I have to think that everyone starting there at the beginning would be TERRIBLE.

Let's hope for a beginning like last year's.


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## slatham (Nov 5, 2019)

Xcreamus said:


> Did y'all see the note on the website that they are going to start Gatehouse first?  I agree with it being opened early. I think most of the ski instructors would want that, as it is the terrain they need.  But I have to think that everyone starting there at the beginning would be TERRIBLE.
> 
> Let's hope for a beginning like last year's.



Based on the forecast and longer range models, and assuming they don't open until advertised opening date of 11/23, this will be irrelevant. They will have Gate House and Valley House easy by 23rd, and likely TTB.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2019)

Xcreamus said:


> Did y'all see the note on the website that they are going to start Gatehouse first?  I agree with it being opened early. I think most of the ski instructors would want that, as it is the terrain they need.  But I have to think that everyone starting there at the beginning would be TERRIBLE.



Yea, this plan was announced in Win's blog a week or two ago and we did discuss it a bit here a few posts/pages back. Personally I'm not a  fan of the new plan, but am willing to wait to see how it plays out. If weather cooperates, you could have both GH and VH terrain ready by opening day in theory in which case that's fine. If you had only GH for opening day, then I think a lot of regulars would not be too happy.



slatham said:


> Based on the forecast and longer range models, and assuming they don't open until advertised opening date of 11/23, this will be irrelevant. They will have Gate House and Valley House easy by 23rd, and likely TTB.



Agreed. Let's hope the forecasts stay positive.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 5, 2019)

Sugarbush is one of the best for late season but IMO the early season game shouldn't be left exclusively to Killington and frankly Mount Snow will be kicking everyone's ass on skiable terrain again pretty soon.

Jiminy Peak will probably open in a week or so with 1,000' vert and some choices down the hill...

Not to bash the Bush (great terrain and great late season commitment to keeping trails open as long as possible), I've got 2 tickets to the main mountain I'm saving for spring, and I'll be doing $30 Thursdays at Mt Ellen


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## WinS (Nov 5, 2019)

As I have said in the past, one can't be all things to all people.  It is terrific to see Killington open early. They have the lift structure to let that done and it sets a tone for the season.  We always shoot for the weekend before Thanksgiving. That is how be plan, budget and staff.  We also plan to be one of the latest to remain open and this plan has worked well for us so please do not expect it to change.

Snowmaking temperatures will be good at the summits tonight so that is where we will be turning on. As the week progresses we can move down the mountain and 2 to 3 days of good temperatures should put Pushover, Slowepoke and First Time in good shape so we  can then focus on the other side. The hope and goal would be to have both Gatehouse and Valley House going to opening weekend November 23rd. At Mount Ellen we are trying to get Inverness dialed in so we the Swiss Women's team can train hear ahead of the 
World Cup at Killington.


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## WinS (Nov 5, 2019)

tumbler said:


> There are very tight restrictions to the amount of water that can be drawn from the Mad River (or any river) based on the low flow in the winter.  The level of the river and the amount of water withdrawn is monitored, documented and sent to the state.



The permit for Lincoln Peak allows an unlimited withdrawal when the river is flowing above the February mean flow. Water is withdrawn and stored in the pond and pumped uphill.  We can pump a maximum of around 4,000 GPM at LP and about 2,500 GPM at ME where the sources are the pond by Inverness and Chase Brook.  Someday building another reservoir and additional pumping capacity and larger diameter pipe to the mountain could allow us to get to a capacity of 6,000-8,000 GPM at LP.  We would not necessary use more water in a season but we would be putting it out faster.  We are planning for this, but it is a multi-year effort that takes planning, regulatory approval and the means to pay for it.  So when one talks about ticket prices remember that the costs of running a sustainable ski resort are not going down.


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## mikec142 (Nov 5, 2019)

Thanks for the update Win.  The family and I will be up over the Thanksgiving holiday.  Can't wait to get on the mountain.  Fingers crossed for another Snovember.


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## slatham (Nov 6, 2019)

FYI - the temperature reading at Lincoln Peak does not look correct. Mt Ellen at 25 I buy, LP at 34 no. Mansfield at 3,920' is 23 and Mt Snow at 3,600' is 27.5. It's either off or has bad sun exposure in morning (9:10am).


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 6, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Loving the fact they are 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





blowing up top  


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2019)

slatham said:


> FYI - the temperature reading at Lincoln Peak does not look correct. Mt Ellen at 25 I buy, LP at 34 no. Mansfield at 3,920' is 23 and Mt Snow at 3,600' is 27.5. It's either off or has bad sun exposure in morning (9:10am).



Once in a while they do get "stuck" and stop updating on the site for some reason (sometimes all, and sometimes just one or two sensors). If I see it not changing for a while, I usually assume that's the case.


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## Orca (Nov 6, 2019)

I'm glad Sugarbush doesn't waste operating budget to open before it is profitable to do so. Moreover, blowing snow in marginal early days just accumulates ice from the inevitable early season melts.


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## ducky (Nov 6, 2019)

It was 38˚ on my truck's thermometer at the base at 8:30am today but the guns were on Upper Jester.


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## WinS (Nov 6, 2019)

slatham said:


> FYI - the temperature reading at Lincoln Peak does not look correct. Mt Ellen at 25 I buy, LP at 34 no. Mansfield at 3,920' is 23 and Mt Snow at 3,600' is 27.5. It's either off or has bad sun exposure in morning (9:10am).



Nope. Working to get it reset. ME temps are accurate and LP’s should be close to them.


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## WinS (Nov 8, 2019)

6" on the Summit of LP this morning and in the low 20's at the base so the snowmaking moved down over night.  If temperatures hold as we think they should, we could be moving the firepower at LP over to Snowball/Spring Fling on Monday in time for the next blast of cold air after a bit of a warm-up on Monday.  Over at ME we have all of the guns focused on Inverness. It is 25 acres so takes a a lot of water to get in covered in sufficient depth.  The local news came by at 6am to get some shots of snowmaking and it felt like mid-winter out there


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 8, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Still coming down ,upslope in effect plus its cold


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 8, 2019)

Still snowing at noon & sticking to the access road.  Solid 3+ inches on the deck.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 8, 2019)

sweet. the k webcams have had light snow all morning too. sweet sweet upslope.


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## WinS (Nov 8, 2019)

9" at 1pm at the summit


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## ducky (Nov 8, 2019)

From the MRV FB page taken today at MRG. Brooks Curran, skier, Tucker Beatty, photographer.


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## slatham (Nov 9, 2019)

ducky said:


> View attachment 25544 From the MRV FB page taken today at MRG. Brooks Curran, skier, Tucker Beatty, photographer.



?????


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 9, 2019)

New top of Sleeper


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## ducky (Nov 9, 2019)

slatham said:


> ?????
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I can see the photo on a laptop but not on a phone for some reason.


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## cdskier (Nov 9, 2019)

ducky said:


> I can see the photo on a laptop but not on a phone for some reason.



Just checked and it shows fine from the alpine zone app on my iPhone. 


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## slatham (Nov 10, 2019)

ducky said:


> View attachment 25544 From the MRV FB page taken today at MRG. Brooks Curran, skier, Tucker Beatty, photographer.



Sorry to be clear I am questioning this photo was this week.


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## ducky (Nov 10, 2019)

slatham said:


> Sorry to be clear I am questioning this photo was this week.



Do you know Brooks Curran? He would not lie about this and is the biggest upcoming ski photog in the area. Further, Eric Friedman, new Mad River Valley Chamber Director and former 22-yr MRG Marketing Director, posted it on the Chamber's FB page. Brooks knows how to find snow and ski it in such a way to make for a great photo.

Here is Brooks' incredible video from the end of last season at MRG.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_enScZV8Pg0


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2019)

They got 11” on top of mad and mount ellen, and they know the terrain very well. my guess is they were riding low-medium angle stuff off the double, where they know it’s safe soft grass underneath, and they staged a photo with a big big slash to throw up a lot of pow, and the photog caught it just right. it’s real, just highly planned


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 10, 2019)

That’s not Darien Boyle ?


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## Hawk (Nov 11, 2019)

With all the new snow this week and good temps, is there any hope of opening this coming weekend?  I'm heading to Maine if they do not.  I just need to know which way to point my car.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 11, 2019)

No


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 11, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

That’s 
Hilarious 


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## Hawk (Nov 11, 2019)

You have to ask.  I know the boxed answer but sometimes Win surprises us.  You never know, he might be looking to make turns himself.  It would not be the first time that mother nature exceeds expectations and they open early.


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## WinS (Nov 11, 2019)

As much as I would personally like to do some official turns at Sugarbush this weekend, we will be sticking to our schedule of opening next weekend the 23rd.  We are still hiring, training, orienting, cleaning lodges and giving some of our F&B staff a break after a business summer and fall. By next weekend, I think it is very likely that we will be skiing off of both the Gate House and the Valley House lifts and possibly more if temperatures stay down. That should make for a very nice opening day for all abilities and also spread people out on the mountain. It does look like cold weather is in place for most of this week and then we will be warming up some next week which will mean returning snowmaking to the upper elevations if that comes to pass. Enjoy Maine, Hawk!


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## Los (Nov 11, 2019)

WinS said:


> As much as I would personally like to do some official turns at Sugarbush this weekend, we will be sticking to our schedule of opening next weekend the 23rd.  We are still hiring, training, orienting, cleaning lodges and giving some of our F&B staff a break after a business summer and fall. By next weekend, I think it is very likely that we will be skiing off of both the Gate House and the Valley House lifts and possibly more if temperatures stay down. That should make for a very nice opening day for all abilities and also spread people out on the mountain. It does look like cold weather is in place for most of this week and then we will be warming up some next week which will mean returning snowmaking to the upper elevations if that comes to pass. Enjoy Maine, Hawk!



Win - you are the man, and you're a huge part of what makes Sugarbush so special. Thanks for all that you do.


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## Hawk (Nov 11, 2019)

Fair enough.  I know that people at the mountain had a very busy summer and fall.  I am sure a little down time has been earned.  Thanks for the honest answer. See you all in two weeks.


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## smac75 (Nov 13, 2019)

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/4505502

who called it? At least Win is sticking around for the time being.


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

smac75 said:


> http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/4505502
> 
> who called it? At least Win is sticking around for the time being.



Happy Win is staying on as President/COO. Will definitely be interesting to see how they integrate SB into the Ikon pass next year though (glad we have at least no changes for this year). If it becomes unlimited on Ikon, I do have concerns about what that could do to crowds and would not particularly be looking forward to that possibility.


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 13, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Had a feeling


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## smac75 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> ...if it becomes unlimited on ikon, i do have concerns about what that could do to crowds and would not particularly be looking forward to that possibility.



same


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 13, 2019)

makes sense. they need a fully owned full pass option in vermont that is better than stratton


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## NYDB (Nov 13, 2019)

I don't think they can do an Aspen or Deer valley situation at Sugarbush.  Like KTK says, they need that unlimited Big terrain mountain in the east.  No way it won't be unlimited starting 20/21


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## MorningWoods (Nov 13, 2019)

smac75 said:


> http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/4505502
> 
> who called it? At least Win is sticking around for the time being.



Not surprised. With access to more capital will be interesting to see what the future holds. 


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## slatham (Nov 13, 2019)

smac75 said:


> http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/4505502
> 
> who called it? At least Win is sticking around for the time being.



Full on disappointment. I really felt Win would stay strong and independent. Is it really impossible to survive as an independent ski resort in VT? If so that is a sad state of affairs. Maybe I’m nostalgic for the old days of skiing, but I really do fear this trend will ruin the sport long term. 


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2019)

smac75 said:


> http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/4505502
> 
> who called it? At least Win is sticking around for the time being.



Someone called this a month ago.

Enjoy Ikon.  [emoji849]


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2019)

Sorry about the other post - I didn't see this thread.


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## Zand (Nov 13, 2019)

Now do Jay.


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2019)

Hopefully this will shift some of the crowds away from Stowe.


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Hopefully this will shift some of the crowds away from Stowe.



Hopefully not :razz:


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Hopefully not :razz:



Yes - it all depends on where you ski.... lol


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## machski (Nov 13, 2019)

Zand said:


> Now do Jay.


I would think this moves reduces the likelihood they will/can do Jay as well.  Then again, Vail controls more itself.  But the K connection could muddy things for Ikon.

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## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2019)

slatham said:


> *I really do fear this trend will ruin the sport long term. *



My prediction is you're going to see skier recruitment numbers drop materially, but it's probably going to take at least a decade to see it in the data.   I am not alone in this fear.


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## Killingtime (Nov 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Sorry about the other post - I didn't see this thread.



Me too.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2019)

Zand said:


> Now do Jay.



I really doubt it.  Any $$$ that would have been used for a Jay purchase went into buying Sugarbush.  As much as folks here love Jay, you have to admit that from a business perspective Sugarbush is a much better investment.  It has many more skier days, a much better location, more acreage, more vertical, much newer infrastructure, a stable ownership, no cloud of criminal activity, a solid four-season business, and has always been compared to Stowe.

As to Sugarbush, I will post a more thoughtful post later today summarizing my POV.


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## mikec142 (Nov 13, 2019)

I'm happy for Win and his partners.  Yet I'm a bit sad.  Hopefully this will be a net positive and very little will change.  That said, one of the big reasons that I love Sugarbush is the vibe that I get there that I rarely feel outside of SB and MRG.  Fingers crossed that the vibe will still be a good one.


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## WinS (Nov 13, 2019)

The biggest change is me learning to be an employee again :smile: But I was one  for 28 years so I guess it will come back.  I am actually very excited to stay on and help to maintain the vibe along with the rest of our great team. We are having a community forum next Wednesday at 5pm in the Gate House Lodge and all are welcome. Then we are shooting for a passholder appreciation day on Friday, November 22nd, followed by official opening on Saturday the 23rd.  I moved by ski gear into my mountain office so ready to go.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

WinS said:


> The biggest change is me learning to be an employee again :smile: But I was one  for 28 years so I guess it will come back.  I am actually very excited to stay on and help to maintain the vibe along with the rest of our great team. We are having a community forum next Wednesday at 5pm in the Gate House Lodge and all are welcome. Then we are shooting for a passholder appreciation day on Friday, November 22nd, followed by official opening on Saturday the 23rd.  I moved by ski gear into my mountain office so ready to go.



Congrats Win.
looking forward to many improvements in the near future.  
and, please ask Alterra to add the Hawk to the snowmaking advisory council.


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> and, please ask Alterra to add the Hawk to the snowmaking advisory council.



:beer:


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## Orca (Nov 13, 2019)

The Ikon pass will have benefits in terms of ski area choices, but costs are going up substantially for teens, college students, twentysomethings, thirtysomethings, and seniors. For a full pass (no blackouts, etc.), Ikon's early-purchase prices were: $949 (23+), $699 (13-22), $299 (5-12), $49 (0-4). Expect substantial cost increases for families with kids. College kids may prefer Bolton or Smugs to keep costs down. Additionally, Mount Ellen only passes may be a thing of the past. Sugarbush has had aggressively age discriminatory pricing that Ikon does not.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

Orca said:


> The Ikon pass will have benefits in terms of ski area choices, but costs are going up substantially for teens, college students, twentysomethings, thirtysomethings, and seniors. For a full pass (no blackouts, etc.), Ikon's early-purchase prices were: $949 (23+), $699 (13-22), $299 (5-12), $49 (0-4). Expect substantial cost increases for families with kids. College kids may prefer Bolton or Smugs to keep costs down. Additionally, Mount Ellen only passes may be a thing of the past. Sugarbush has had aggressively age discriminatory pricing that Ikon does not.



This is correct.  However, my daughter is in college and got the SB pass for this season.  I want to say it was $349.  She will be going with her school ski club on trips to Sugarbush, Tremblant and Breck.  The additional cost for tremblant and breck are going to be more than the increased price for the Ikon.


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## Orca (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> This is correct.  However, my daughter is in college and got the SB pass for this season.  I want to say it was $349.  She will be going with her school ski club on trips to Sugarbush, Tremblant and Breck.  The additional cost for tremblant and breck are going to be more than the increased price for the Ikon.



Yes, the Ikon pass is a better product -- meaning that it is an enhanced pass that can be used more widely. The utility of that benefit will be specifically situational. Some will use the benefit, some may not. Regardless, the entry cost for families is more.


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## teleo (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> [emoji481]


The Hawk snowmaking pond!  Where will it be?


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## teleo (Nov 13, 2019)

Congrats Win.  

We are all hoping you can make that transition and stay on for years to come.  But that transition is not always easy.


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## Orca (Nov 13, 2019)

teleo said:


> The Hawk snowmaking pond!  Where will it be?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2019)

So here are my thoughts, admittedly from afar, but I was a regular Sugarbush skier from 2000-2011, and a fan since at least 1994.

As to Win and Summit Ventures, they have been the best thing that could have happened to Sugarbush.  They have offered nearly 20 years of stability and consistent improvement.  This is not matched to probably as far back as the Gadds.  They were very much local and were at the right place at the right time.  I recall in 2001 being a bit hesitant because selfishly I loved having the student "ASC All East Pass", but it was clear very soon that Win and his investors were very much set on making much needed improvements to lifts and snowmaking.  

Taking our skier and rider interests aside, one has to admit that this was probably the very best time to sell in the last 10 years or so and probably will be the best window for the next 5-10 years.  The economy is hot.  Market prices are high.  There is an obvious arms race between two well-funded national resort companies, Vail and Alterra.  Labor is hard to come by.  And, nothing personal, but Win and his partners are getting up there in age.  As to the new owners, Alterra is probably the least evil option.  I will expand more upon that.  

As to what to expect--this is not the first time that a multi-resort national (or regional) resort group has owned Sugarbush.  Les Otten, then LBO Enterprises, first leased Sugarbush as his third resort in 1993 or 1994 and then took it over in 1995 investing $28 million in much needed improvements.  The love stopped in the late 1990's and 2000 or so because locals did not like the proposed Grand Summit Hotel.  That, as well as declining revenue from overexpansion, led to a very steady decline in the ski area.  So ASC/LBO had very much promise at the start and fizzled out.  

As to changes here, it depends on who you are and your perspective.  The folks who have shelled out for special access, early runs, VIP snowcat tours, etc. are going to be the ones who are most pissed.  That is because those things are likely coming to an end and there will be A LOT more folks on the slopes.  Not to burn any bridges or piss anyone off (admittedly these types of folks are NOT going to be on here), but one of the things that I really began to dislike in my last year was the "country club" atmosphere and entitlement culture that began to develop at Sugarbush, particularly LP.  That said, from a business perspective, I get why a business needs to do that in order to generate revenue.  But, these special people are going to be the ones who will get pissed first, just like at Deer Valley this past season with the new regime not doing as well with snowmaking, grooming, and operations and the resulting crowds from the Ikon pass.  I have talked to multiple DV regulars who have told me that a lot of folks are selling their homes and are not happy.  This is not to say that Sugarbush is most like Deer Valley--it isn't at all.  

If you're a regular weekend warrior, you will have to get used to set opening and closing dates, regardless of snow cover.  That will likely result in probably shorter seasons.  Who knows though.  You will also have to fend with more folks on the slopes, but you now have many more options for skiing and riding now all over NE.  So it is probably a wash.

If you were one of the folks who got the limited ME pass, which was a very good product for the VT locals market at a good pricepoint, say goodbye to that.  Same with the 20's pass and other discounted products.  

In the years I skied at SB, they did honor MRG passes on occasion for early season skiing.  They also offered some deals in between the two.  I don't know if that is still the case, but if it is, expect those to end.  And if you are an MRG skier, expect probably more folks jumping ship and going there if ihings to get too crowded and if decisions are not popular as to season length, snowmaking coverage, etc.  

As to a good comparison?  I don't really know of one.  Aspen, technically, is a part of the Ikon pass, but NOT an Alterra Resort per se.  AFAIK Aspen remains a Crown property that is affiliated with Alterra, but is not owned by Alterra.  Crown owns a piece of Alterra.  Likewise, Squaw/Alpine Meadows is still a KSL property and similarly is related to Alterra, but separate.  KSL has pissed a lot of locals off in Tahoe, but it is California and someone is always pissed off there.  Deer Valley and Aspen are "limited" Ikon resorts, meaning that Ikon only buys you five or seven days of access.  They are the premium product offerings that require folks to shell out a lot more money for a full pass.  Folks here are saying that SB is going to be an unlimited Ikon offering, so DV and Aspen are not at all good comparisons, except suffice to say that both have locals pissed at the amount of crowding that has occurred.

The only Alterra resort I can compare SB to, and probably not even very well, is the experience with Solitude.  Solitude was a DV resort meant to be a mainstream offering and meant to buffer DV from Vail's expansion.  Alterra bought and took over Solitude only last season.  The biggest thing was that it was the ONLY unlimited Ikon offering here in SLC and the Wasatch Front.  It is clear that Alterra really underestimated the impact of Ikon and demand.  They BS about "it was a good snow year", but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the discount pass was the main driver to crowding and parking problems that they had.  The paid parking idea was poorly rolled out and was really a lame way to control that crowding issue and force the problem onto other Ikon partner resorts.  That is not at all popular.  And no, the money was not to be used for more bussing or transit options but instead was a revenue generator.  

Overall, crowding was the biggest issue with Solitude.  Having a good snow year, snowmaking and grooming were not really tested.  Season length was shortened.  They started much later than in the past.  I know that staffing has turned over and a lot of folks at DV and Solitude have left.  This season, which is already warm and dry, is going to test Alterra's ops at Solitude.  Frankly, IMHO Solitude was always a sub-par ski area in this area when compared to the overwhelming competition.  I've skied there a few times and it is just OK.  I know a lot of folks love it on AZ, but it has a very odd layout and weird lift arrangement.  That said, DV and Alterra have added one new HSQ and another is coming.  Locals are pissed that their secret spot is now discovered and that parking is now no longer free.  Not a good place to be.  

So we will see what happens with SB.  I am interested to hear what people think now that a multi-resort company once again controls it.  The last one got run out of town by the locals.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 13, 2019)

good post

i think mrg and sugarbush still have companion products, student passes with cheap mrg add-ons, something like that

agreed re: solitude. place is weird. need to ride 4 lifts and ski 3 connector runs to lap the good terrain


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## machski (Nov 13, 2019)

Interesting perspective from TrailBoss.  I know Alterra is buying Sugarbush outright, but by keeping Win on as President and COO, I feel like they will let it run more by Win and local (a la Mammoth as a better example) than like DV.  I never followed DV too much, always thought pre Ikon it was far too pretentious without the type of terrain that interests me when I travel west, but it always struck me as a high end resort that had firmer open/close dates.  Perhaps I'm wrong there, not sure.  Anyway, I could maybe see SB getting a more firm open date moving forward, especially if K is still on the Ikon with them pushing the early opening just down the road.  I feel like the skiing into first weekend of May will go on, though the K arguement could be made here too.  I look to Crystal too in Washington, nw a full Alterra area and they reopened this year late spring given the snowpack.  So tough to call how this might go, but I feel like the way Win has driven the ship will continue to prevail moving forward.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2019)

machski said:


> Interesting perspective from TrailBoss.  I know Alterra is buying Sugarbush outright, but by keeping Win on as President and COO, I feel like they will let it run more by Win and local (a la Mammoth as a better example) than like DV.  I never followed DV too much, always thought pre Ikon it was far too pretentious without the type of terrain that interests me when I travel west, but it always struck me as a high end resort that had firmer open/close dates.  Perhaps I'm wrong there, not sure.  Anyway, I could maybe see SB getting a more firm open date moving forward, especially if K is still on the Ikon with them pushing the early opening just down the road.  I feel like the skiing into first weekend of May will go on, though the K arguement could be made here too.  I look to Crystal too in Washington, nw a full Alterra area and they reopened this year late spring given the snowpack.  So tough to call how this might go, but I feel like the way Win has driven the ship will continue to prevail moving forward.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Good points.  I don't know much about Mammoth or its operations.  Again, my perspective is limited only to DV and Solitude, which as I said are not really good benchmarks.  I would not expect much change this season.


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

machski said:


> Interesting perspective from TrailBoss.  I know Alterra is buying Sugarbush outright, but by keeping Win on as President and COO, I feel like they will let it run more by Win and local (a la Mammoth as a better example) than like DV.  I never followed DV too much, always thought pre Ikon it was far too pretentious without the type of terrain that interests me when I travel west, but it always struck me as a high end resort that had firmer open/close dates.  Perhaps I'm wrong there, not sure.  Anyway, I could maybe see SB getting a more firm open date moving forward, especially if K is still on the Ikon with them pushing the early opening just down the road.  I feel like the skiing into first weekend of May will go on, though the K arguement could be made here too.  I look to Crystal too in Washington, nw a full Alterra area and they reopened this year late spring given the snowpack.  So tough to call how this might go, but I feel like the way Win has driven the ship will continue to prevail moving forward.



I tend to agree with you. SB doesn't have a particularly aggressive opening date now and I don't see them pushing it back further. Keep in mind that Alterra presumably would rather people ski at their "own" resorts via Ikon rather than at partner resorts like K where they most likely have to pay something to K for each ticket scanned. So I could easily see SB continuing with the same open/close schedule as they have now. I don't see K being a partner on Ikon having a major influence on that.


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## TheArchitect (Nov 13, 2019)

WinS said:


> The biggest change is me learning to be an employee again :smile: But I was one  for 28 years so I guess it will come back.  I am actually very excited to stay on and help to maintain the vibe along with the rest of our great team. We are having a community forum next Wednesday at 5pm in the Gate House Lodge and all are welcome. Then we are shooting for a passholder appreciation day on Friday, November 22nd, followed by official opening on Saturday the 23rd.  I moved by ski gear into my mountain office so ready to go.



I imagine there must be some mixed emotions for you.  I just wanted to say that, like others, we all really appreciate what you've done with Sugarbush.  I'm REALLY happy that you and your team are staying!  The vibe at SB is one of the best things about skiing there and keeps me coming back every year.


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## WinS (Nov 13, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So here are my thoughts, admittedly from afar, but I was a regular Sugarbush skier from 2000-2011, and a fan since at least 1994.
> 
> As to Win and Summit Ventures, they have been the best thing that could have happened to Sugarbush.  They have offered nearly 20 years of stability and consistent improvement.  This is not matched to probably as far back as the Gadds.  They were very much local and were at the right place at the right time.  I recall in 2001 being a bit hesitant because selfishly I loved having the student "ASC All East Pass", but it was clear very soon that Win and his investors were very much set on making much needed improvements to lifts and snowmaking.
> 
> ...



Good thoughtful post but too tired to respond in detail tonight to a few points that I do not agree with. But I am PO’d about the age comment. You think 7O is old? You have to understand that we baby boomers have a Peter Pan complex. We never age :razz:


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## Howitzer (Nov 13, 2019)

More thoughts from afar, but most importantly Win and the Sugarbush team have been wonderful stewards of one of the premier ski areas in New England. Sugarbush is in a much better position relative to where the mountain was the day Summit Ventures bought it in 2001. 

Alterra leaves individual opening and closing dates up to each resort. These dates are obviously dictated by the calendar, snow, weather and business levels. Squaw Valley stayed open until the 4th of July for the second time in the last thee years after KSL brought Squaw under the Alterra umbrella. I would expect to see similar opening and closing dates for LP/ME moving forward.  

You quite simply can't be all things to all people. One of the biggest differences pass holders will notice is there is no senior Ikon Pass. It is the Ikon Pass, the Base Pass and what in all likelihood will be more expensive day tickets. Around $1000 for a full pass and $650 for the Base Pass that is blacked out 10 days. Alterra sells a June only pass at Mammoth, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar offer for ME moving forward.

Hopefully this proves to be the right move at the right time for Sugarbush given the current state of the industry. Congratulations Win on a job well done and I'm excited to see what the future holds for Sugarbush.


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## mbedle (Nov 14, 2019)

I'm a little confused but don't most of Alterra owned resorts still sell resort specific passes - outside of Ikon? Stratton and Snowshoe both have them. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like Alterra is open to having resort specific passes, which would apply to Sugarbush.


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I'm a little confused but don't most of Alterra owned resorts still sell resort specific passes - outside of Ikon? Stratton and Snowshoe both have them. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like Alterra is open to having resort specific passes, which would apply to Sugarbush.



Correct. Next year we will be looking a what is the right combination for us going forward.


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## Hawk (Nov 14, 2019)

I will jump in also and say basically the same thing.  Your body of work here will be looked at as a huge success.  Sugarbush and the Mad River Valley has been a special place for me and my Wife over the last 15 years.  We have skied more powder, gone on more adventures and gained so many(countless) new friends.  All because of the resort.  I think that the approach Summit Ventures has taken with it's business was thoughtful and respectful of the Valley and all it's businesses and people.  This is very unusual and hard to duplicate in this very competitive industry.  Much respect goes to you Win for always trying to do the right thing even when it might have cost you a few extra dollars.  I may have said a few things over the years about snow making or policies but those were minimal and sometimes selfish.  I apologize for that.  Customers always want more.  I realize that you can't do everything and have it exactly perfect for everybody.  

My fear and probably the fear of most regulars is that something might be lost with the big company.  Being a skier/owner is unique in that you want to see things go in a way that makes it better for the skiers.  You understand what we all want and like. Corporations and shareholders sometimes get lost in the numbers and loose site of the importance of the customers needs.  Time will see and I hope you can influence your newly arriving management to understand the valley, the people and the vibe that makes us so special.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Good thoughtful post but too tired to respond in detail tonight to a few points that I do not agree with. But I am PO’d about the age comment. You think 7O is old? You have to understand that we baby boomers have a Peter Pan complex. We never age :razz:



I figured you would love that comment.  :lol:  Well-written letter to folks yesterday.  You have nothing to be upset about--you really were very successful during a very interesting 18-year period.  Are they going to name a trail after you?

And I also apologize for getting after you about snowmaking (like Mr. Hawk).  It is easy for us to be arm-chair ski area owners without putting any skin in the game.


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## AbominableSnowman (Nov 14, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I figured you would love that comment.  :lol:  Well-written letter to folks yesterday.  You have nothing to be upset about--you really were very successful during a very interesting 18-year period.  Are they going to name a trail after you?
> 
> And I also apologize for getting after you about snowmaking (like Mr. Hawk).  It is easy for us to be arm-chair ski area owners without putting any skin in the game.



Of course, you may have spent enough at the CRP to have "skin in the game"....:razz:


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 14, 2019)

"Win's Way" rolls nicely off the tongue...


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I will jump in also and say basically the same thing.  Your body of work here will be looked at as a huge success.  Sugarbush and the Mad River Valley has been a special place for me and my Wife over the last 15 years.  We have skied more powder, gone on more adventures and gained so many(countless) new friends.  All because of the resort.  I think that the approach Summit Ventures has taken with it's business was thoughtful and respectful of the Valley and all it's businesses and people.  This is very unusual and hard to duplicate in this very competitive industry.  Much respect goes to you Win for always trying to do the right thing even when it might have cost you a few extra dollars.  I may have said a few things over the years about snow making or policies but those were minimal and sometimes selfish.  I apologize for that.  Customers always want more.  I realize that you can't do everything and have it exactly perfect for everybody.
> 
> My fear and probably the fear of most regulars is that something might be lost with the big company.  Being a skier/owner is unique in that you want to see things go in a way that makes it better for the skiers.  You understand what we all want and like. Corporations and shareholders sometimes get lost in the numbers and loose site of the importance of the customers needs.  Time will see and I hope you can influence your newly arriving management to understand the valley, the people and the vibe that makes us so special.




Thank you Hawk.


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I figured you would love that comment.  :lol:  Well-written letter to folks yesterday.  You have nothing to be upset about--you really were very successful during a very interesting 18-year period.  Are they going to name a trail after you?
> 
> And I also apologize for getting after you about snowmaking (like Mr. Hawk).  It is easy for us to be arm-chair ski area owners without putting any skin in the game.



Never name a Trail while one is still around this blog has also been fun to banter with because of the passion shown. That in my opinion is what makes our community special.  When I move on someday, maybe I will get a different account and become passionate too


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## ss20 (Nov 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Never name a Trail while one is still around &#55357;&#56832;this blog has also been fun to banter with because of the passion shown. That in my opinion is what makes our community special.  When I move on someday, maybe I will get a different account and become passionate too&#55357;&#56832;



In other words...expect the username NotWinSmith123 to tear Hawk a new one when he "critiques" Sugarbush's snowmaking strategy in the future :lol:


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Never name a Trail while one is still around ��this blog has also been fun to banter with because of the passion shown. That in my opinion is what makes our community special.  When I move on someday, maybe I will get a different account and become passionate too��



Just wondering if the golf course was part of the sale? What becomes of that, still yours?


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## WinS (Nov 15, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Just wondering if the golf course was part of the sale? What becomes of that, still yours?


Yes it is and all will remain the same. The only thing I retained are the four unsold Gadd Brook homes.


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## Vermonteer (Nov 17, 2019)

Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 17, 2019)

oh ok...

thanks for explaining business for us.


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## crystalmountainskier (Nov 17, 2019)

Win, can you give some insights into why Slide Brook operates only on weekends and holidays these days?  Are there weather and/or evacuation considerations that go into determining when that lift can run?  Thanks!


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2019)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Win, can you give some insights into why Slide Brook operates only on weekends and holidays these days?  Are there weather and/or evacuation considerations that go into determining when that lift can run?  Thanks!



?

As long as there is sufficient snow-pack on the access routes into Slide Brook and as long as the temps are above a certain value (5, 10, something like that...can't remember exactly), then the lift runs 7 days a week. Years ago it was weekends/holidays only. But it has been a 7 day a week lift for I want to say at least 5+ years now.


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2019)

Vermonteer said:


> Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.



Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings.  So when you buy a  failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price.  If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development)  to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course.  I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest.  I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2019)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Win, can you give some insights into why Slide Brook operates only on weekends and holidays these days?  Are there weather and/or evacuation considerations that go into determining when that lift can run?  Thanks!



Once Mount Ellen opens in December we schedule it to run every day until ME closes at the end of March.  Our lift mechanics have to be able to get to the 40 towers quickly and safely on snow mobiles.  They access them over a number of work roads in Slidebrook and it requires sufficient snow depth for that to happen.  Also in the unlikely event of a  lift evacuation we need to get patrol in there quickly as well and guests out safely.  Another reason the lift might not run is wind. As you know there are several places where it is very exposed to the elements which makes it quite vulnerable to wind from different directions. Finally, for safety we do not run it when the temps are below 5 degrees.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 18, 2019)

As always thanks Win!


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## mister moose (Nov 18, 2019)

Vermonteer said:


> Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.


Wondering if you're concerned with making bucks at your job.  Wondering if you'd feel better if Win lost money and SB was in deteriorating shape.  Wondering what you'd think if you'd invested your retirement in shares of a company that performed well and made a profit.


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## Hawk (Nov 18, 2019)

This is a new person to this forum.  He or she registered and posted their first post.  I have no idea who they are but it feels like either a current or past employee or a local that just plain does not like the sale.  As someone that has skied SB throughout the ASC and Summit Ventures periods, I certainly think there has been more than a modest improvement over the last 15 years.


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## mikec142 (Nov 18, 2019)

I would pay Vermonteer zero attention.  It's clear that's what he is after.  Guy's first post is trolling for attention.


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## pinnoke (Nov 18, 2019)

Win, I'm glad you quickly came to the same defense of your ownership tenure's accomomplishments at Sugarbush, as I already see others doing, as well. The success and growing popularity of Sugarbush is clearly evident, and owning/managing a ski resort ain't for the faint of heart, I'm sure! Besides substantial investment, you've brought passion and accessibility to the community. You're entitled to whatever the fair market has offered for Sugarbush's many assets. Good luck to you and your family, and Alterra, moving forward! Vermonteer has many options where he may bring his boards and opinions besides someplace he resents.


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2019)

I only started skiing at SB after Win purchased it, but I can without a doubt say that during that time I've seen many improvements that absolutely benefited us skiers (and boarders). I'd fully expect the owner and majority investor to be rewarded at some point for doing a good job and turning a business around. If I'm supposed to feel bad that Win profited on the sale, I don't.

In reality, it is quite impressive just how much Win accomplished. SB was a large resort with a handful of individual people as investors/owners during the Summit Ventures era. Meanwhile most other resorts of that size are owned by a large corporate conglomerate. And yet SB still managed to do all the various improvements that have already been mentioned during that time. Vermonteer comes off as either jealous, or someone like Hawk mentioned as possibilities.


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 18, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tonyr (Nov 18, 2019)

WinS said:


> Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings.  So when you buy a  failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price.  If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development)  to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course.  I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest.  I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.



Why has making money through the culmination of someone's hard work become a dirty word? Isn't that the whole point of working??? Unfortunately Win a shot like that at you is the new world we live in. Gone are the days of appreciating the people who risk capital and more importantly time, taking on a project like Sugarbush when you did. Instead they'll vilify a finacially successful transaction more times than not out of pure jealousy. I don't get it and never will but I can tell you that a large number of us here are very appreciative and thankful for your body of work as the owner of Sugarbush.

Tony


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2019)

WinS said:


> Vermonteer, I have to respond to this misinformation. Your numbers are wrong but you are correct directionally. Businesses are bought and sold on a multiple of cash earnings.  So when you buy a  failing and unprofitable business and sell a profitable one obviously you sell at a higher price.  If a business is not profitable you build up deferred maintenance and can not invest in improvements. You must not have been to Sugarbush these past 18 years if you think there have only been modest improvements. We have invested over $70 million in improvements (not including real estate development)  to both the mountain experience and other areas of the resort such as the golf course.  I do not think 7 new lifts, upgrades to most of the other 9, three new energy efficient snowmaking compressors, a fleet of new groomers, miles of new snowmaking pipe, hundreds of new energy efficient snow guns and towers, three new base lodges and hudnereds of over capital improvements qualifies as modest.  I am proud of what we have done and believe the vast majority of our guest are pleased with the results.



Nothing wrong with working hard to provide an appreciated product and making money doing it.

God bless, that's America! I hope that never changes.

Successful people unfortunately have to always deal with jealousy and haters.


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## 1dog (Nov 18, 2019)

Most people are unaware of it, add envy to the mix, and one can see why its easy to see wealth or capitlism attacked.

#8 Class Warfare - Divide the people into the  wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take ( tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

Rules for Radicals.


I'd counter with these: How many people were employed over the last 18 years because of ( short term) construction, new lodges and condos - housekeeping, maintenance, food service, and any number of permanent jobs associated with expansion/improvements?

How about the tax revenue generated by more paychecks, sales tax, etc.? How about home real estate appreciation which causes local taxes to increase due to value of homes/condos/commercial ventures?

Never seen or measured is the charities that benefit from some with means to give. ( not sure it should be either)
 How many colleges and hospital wings were built with wealth? 

Bet the guy in Mumbai with the cardboard shack is probably envious of the guy with corrugated metal  shack.

Humans - love the free speech though - 

+1  JimG;Tonyr


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 18, 2019)

I give Win at least partial credit for keeping Glen Ellen open, $30 Thursdays, and increasing the number of woods-in-play substantially. I've never skied Slide Brook but I'm sure that's a nice area.

I appreciate Sugarbush for a liberal/lax "open trail" policy in the spring (basically it's up to you and your skis if you want to ski it) and be very "sidecountry friendly" while other resorts were on the fence.

I have a few gripes that keep me from being a frequent skier (price/crowds/prefer the culture next door at MRG) ... but I look forward to going back there for a couple days in late March/ early April. Absolute top tier late season experience.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 18, 2019)

1dog said:


> Rules for Radicals.



Can we do a debate thread on the merits of Saul Alinsky? :lol:


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## 1dog (Nov 18, 2019)

Woods, - thats the biggest reason for me anyway to have made it my permanent home. 

and SB - Bdft - if you like the shorter woods ( at North or South - you'll really like SB - second entrance is the easiest way to start. Think they call it Slip 'N Slide. Closest to say,Eden in terrain. Go with at least one who is familiar. I've skied there for years - and my 9 year old showed me woods I  had no idea existed last year.

Alterra - put a large mid-mountain lodge SOMEWHERE above 2500. Gatehouse seems the obvious choice due to 3 lifts converging.

Bottom of Upper Organ Grinder too maybe, just below/beside Deathspout entrance.

That alone could keep the base lodge livable on weekends.

Me? Well, since you asked. . . . .  on top - where gondola ended. 360 views, amazing sunsets, year round events. You'll need another lift and at least two more trails down - just don't cut into my favorite woods trail - its not the real name - Spillsville Woods - 


Saul! At least he told you what he was gonna do and why, right?


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 18, 2019)

1dog said:


> Saul! At least he told you what he was gonna do and why, right?



They always do. It's one of the rules players of "the game" have to follow. Consent is important, whether explicit or implicit.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2019)

1dog said:


> W
> 
> Alterra - put a large mid-mountain lodge SOMEWHERE above 2500. Gatehouse seems the obvious choice due to 3 lifts converging.
> 
> ...



I highly doubt that will happen.  If it did not happen 25 years ago, it ain't happening now.  Why?  Vermont Environmental Regs.  I believe that development above 2,000 feet is really restricted.  I think that there was talk about "expanding" Allyn's a while back.  I know that they did upgrade it at some point after Win took over.

It is a good idea of course, but the State will not allow it.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2019)

Vermonteer said:


> Dudes, like Win must have made serious bucks on SB. Bought for $6m and sold for $60+m, or maybe more. All you guys talking bout how his tenure is so so wonderful. Well, sb has seen very modest improvements over the many years, but someone walked away with tens of mils. It ain't you, skiers, that benefited from Saint Win.



You know what they say about the ski resort industry..."how do you make a small fortune?  By investing a large one."  I highly doubt that it is as simple as you claim nor the payout is as large as you think.  It is surprising how many people in Vermont just assume that the ski areas have tons of money.  That is wrong.  Capital intensive business with risky returns.

And I will add that going on now 18+ years this ownership group has offered the most stability to the area.    That is worth its weight in gold.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 19, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> You know what they say about the ski resort industry..."how do you make a small fortune?  By investing a large one."  I highly doubt that it is as simple as you claim nor the payout is as large as you think.  It is surprising how many people in Vermont just assume that the ski areas have tons of money.  That is wrong.  Capital intensive business with risky returns.
> 
> And I will add that going on now 18+ years this ownership group has offered the most stability to the area.    That is worth its weight in gold.



Count me as one that is satisfied as well. I would agree with many on here that an additional lodge is needed to help spread out that lunch crowd. A new sharc for better off mountain activities for guests and non ski days. I wouldn’t like to see anything that increases uphill capacity at Lincoln peak. Would prefer investment in Mt Ellen both the planned but never executed terrain expansion and facility enhancements, make it a destination not an overflow lot. That will go a long way towards addressing crowding. 


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 19, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Count me as one that is satisfied as well. I would agree with many on here that an additional lodge is needed to help spread out that lunch crowd. A new sharc for better off mountain activities for guests and non ski days. I wouldn’t like to see anything that increases uphill capacity at Lincoln peak. Would prefer investment in Mt Ellen both the planned but never executed terrain expansion and facility enhancements, make it a destination not an overflow lot. That will go a long way towards addressing crowding.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A few guys I skied with last year spoke of the possibility of SB cutting in a skin track off of Northway or the top of Inverness to open that section as a sort of inbounds backcountry area. Given the headache/expenditure that comes with any sort of major terrain expansion combined with the current popularity in backcountry skiing, I could totally see it. It's also all south facing so gladed terrain would prob make the most sense there as well.


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## teleo (Nov 19, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> A few guys I skied with last year spoke of the possibility of SB cutting in a skin track off of Northway or the top of Inverness to open that section as a sort of inbounds backcountry area.



 That would be cool.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

Anyone and everyone who saw sugarbush in the years before Win took over, knows that its in much better shape, orders of magnitude better, than it was then.  Win's stewardship and investment saved a dying resort.  Its not debatable.  Sure, it was great for us back then that there was relatively no one skiing,  but the place was literally dying.  look at the skier visits from the end of the asc days. 

Personally, I have two kids who love skiing (and rip btw), love the MRV and I really dont think that would have happened if Win hadnt taken over and righted the ship.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 19, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> A few guys I skied with last year spoke of the possibility of SB cutting in a skin track off of Northway or the top of Inverness to open that section as a sort of inbounds backcountry area. Given the headache/expenditure that comes with any sort of major terrain expansion combined with the current popularity in backcountry skiing, I could totally see it. It's also all south facing so gladed terrain would prob make the most sense there as well.



That would be cool. I have not skied that area. Wonder how the lines are? That’s private land, correct? So sugarbush could do what they want, to a point? They don’t have to jump through all the forestry loops that they do on LP side. How far over do they own I wonder? 


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 19, 2019)

I haven't explored over there either. I do know the Glen Ellen Long Trail hut is about 2/3rds of the way up to the ridge line if you go straight uphill from the top of Inverness. I also chatted with a guy who lives up off of Fiddlehead Road who says he's good for a bunch of lost MRG skiers winding up in his backyard every year so I assume its definitely skiable as is and would be great with some glading.


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## 1dog (Nov 19, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I haven't explored over there either. I do know the Glen Ellen Long Trail hut is about 2/3rds of the way up to the ridge line if you go straight uphill from the top of Inverness. I also chatted with a guy who lives up off of Fiddlehead Road who says he's good for a bunch of lost MRG skiers winding up in his backyard every year so I assume its definitely skiable as is and would be great with some glading.




Think skiers left of far north Exterminator Woods - seems to have consistent pitch and fairly steep. Faces south just as Castlerock does but with just glades or very narrow trails or both and you'd have excitment that would sweep over the northeast . . . .so now that I think about that - forget it - sucks there - everyone pay no attention to the man beside Exterminator Woods!.

I've gotten stuck in ravines to the north of Mellen but that was off MRG as well. Lots of deep ravines in there. Last time I came out on Mellen Access road below parking lot.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Count me as one that is satisfied as well. I would agree with many on here that an additional lodge is needed to help spread out that lunch crowd. A new sharc for better off mountain activities for guests and non ski days. I wouldn’t like to see anything that increases uphill capacity at Lincoln peak. Would prefer investment in Mt Ellen both the planned but never executed terrain expansion and facility enhancements, make it a destination not an overflow lot. That will go a long way towards addressing crowding.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The two best options for a mid-mountain lodge are Gate House Plateau which is already part of our long-term plan with the USFS as well as new or expanded Glen House at ME. It might be possible to expand Allyn's a bit but lack of water limits the food options.


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## 1dog (Nov 19, 2019)

all good news Win, the question is, when?

Maybe cap-ex budget is increased with new company. Meanwhile, chairlift lunches on Sat and Sundays are a way to go - sometimes the Blazer lunchroom with my kid is less crowded.


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## Hawk (Nov 19, 2019)

1dog said:


> Think skiers left of far north Exterminator Woods - seems to have consistent pitch and fairly steep. Faces south just as Castlerock does but with just glades or very narrow trails or both and you'd have excitment that would sweep over the northeast . . . .so now that I think about that - forget it - sucks there - everyone pay no attention to the man beside Exterminator Woods!.
> 
> I've gotten stuck in ravines to the north of Mellen but that was off MRG as well. Lots of deep ravines in there. Last time I came out on Mellen Access road below parking lot.



I have struggled down from the long trail down to the top of inverness a couple of times.  The problem is the woods are real thick in there with evergreens.  it was a struggle.  I have also gone from the long trail starting at Mt Ellen and found my way to the 19th hole at MRG.  That was not bad but you need to make sure the mountain explorer is running.  ;-0


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 19, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have struggled down from the long trail down to the top of inverness a couple of times.  The problem is the woods are real thick in there with evergreens.  it was a struggle.  I have also gone from the long trail starting at Mt Ellen and found my way to the 19th hole at MRG.  That was not bad but you need to make sure the mountain explorer is running.  ;-0



Have you done the "big slide" on Mt Ellen into Slide Brook? That's kind of on my to-do list but I can't find a lot of info on it.

Sure looks good anyway.. I guess the main question is... if you ski this and end up bottom of Slide Brook, can you get a shuttle ride back to Mt Ellen base or just over to Lincoln?


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have struggled down from the long trail down to the top of inverness a couple of times.  The problem is the woods are real thick in there with evergreens.  it was a struggle.  I have also gone from the long trail starting at Mt Ellen and found my way to the 19th hole at MRG.  That was not bad but you need to make sure the mountain explorer is running.  ;-0




This.  the medium sized pine trees are packed in there tight.  Its unpleasant to have to bushwack through that stuff.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Have you done the "big slide" on Mt Ellen into Slide Brook? That's kind of on my to-do list but I can't find a lot of info on it.
> 
> Sure looks good anyway.. I guess the main question is... if you ski this and end up bottom of Slide Brook, can you get a shuttle ride back to Mt Ellen base or just over to Lincoln?




if you can get to the shuttle to lincoln, you can get to the one to mt ellen.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Have you done the "big slide" on Mt Ellen into Slide Brook? That's kind of on my to-do list but I can't find a lot of info on it.
> 
> Sure looks good anyway.. I guess the main question is... if you ski this and end up bottom of Slide Brook, can you get a shuttle ride back to Mt Ellen base or just over to Lincoln?



You can catch he bus either way


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

WinS said:


> The two best options for a mid-mountain lodge are Gate House Plateau which is already part of our long-term plan with the USFS as well as new or expanded Glen House at ME. It might be possible to expand Allyn's a bit but lack of water limits the food options.




Are there issues other than cost, involved in doing anything to the lodges at Mt Ellen (other than usual permits and what not)???  I had heard there were some kind of septic/sewage issue.


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## ducky (Nov 19, 2019)

As Hawk and Howie have said, the woods off the Long Trail north toward the Glen Ellen hut are very dense and it is bushwhacking the whole way. Be great if the Google satellite images offered a winter view so you could aim for the white and not the green, but they don't. There is a skin track up from Fiddlehead toward Antelope/Catamount.

Following the talk a few pages back of lodge expansions and crowding reminded me of the youTube from a few years ago, Hitler wants a Powder Day Sugarbush.... "we'll have to eat standing up in the boot room". One woman leans over to another, "You ski Middle Earth very well". Ha ha.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0

The wait is over, folks. Back on snow Friday. Looks like Mtn Ops have done a great job getting ready.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

ducky said:


> As Hawk and Howie have said, the woods off the Long Trail north toward the Glen Ellen hut are very dense and it is bushwhacking the whole way. Be great if the Google satellite images offered a winter view so you could aim for the white and not the green, but they don't. There is a skin track up from Fiddlehead toward Antelope/Catamount.
> 
> Following the talk a few pages back of lodge expansions and crowding reminded me of the youTube from a few years ago, Hitler wants a Powder Day Sugarbush.... "all we can get is an (f-ing) table in the boot room". One woman leans over to another, "You ski Middle Earth very well". Ha ha.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTOcGTJd0
> 
> The wait is over, folks. Back on snow Friday. Looks like Mtn Ops have done a great job getting ready.




that's my wife's handiwork.


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## ducky (Nov 19, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> that's my wife's handiwork.



I thought as much. Very funny lines - she's a keeper.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2019)

those hitler videos rule. i particularly like the ones about jambands (who woulda thunk?)


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 19, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> those hitler videos rule. i particularly like the ones about jambands (who woulda thunk?)



Speaking of Jambands... back in college there was a Phish 1994 show at Sugarbush I was playing pretty frequently.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2019)

i havent explored slidebrook very much. maybe two runs ever, both starting from LP, and nothing nearly as cool as that long open slide in the video. how access that?


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 19, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent explored slidebrook very much. maybe two runs ever, both starting from LP, and nothing nearly as cool as that long open slide in the video. how access that?



Somebody marked the access from the LT with surveyors tape a few years ago. I’ve never gone over there so can’t confirm whether or not it’s still there. Maybe someone else here has? 

https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/12147-large-mudslide-in-slide-brook


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## ducky (Nov 19, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent explored slidebrook very much. maybe two runs ever, both starting from LP, and nothing nearly as cool as that long open slide in the video. how access that?



20 minute hike south from ME Summit chair. Very steep and jump turns only with loose rocks getting in at the top. The bottom 3/4 goes quickly then a long semi-flatout back to the fire road. I was on a board and had to pull my way out. Looks better from far away than it is for the 20 seconds of glory.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2019)

thanks. it looks a little like poma line @ pico.


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## MorningWoods (Nov 19, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I have struggled down from the long trail down to the top of inverness a couple of times.  The problem is the woods are real thick in there with evergreens.  it was a struggle.  I have also gone from the long trail starting at Mt Ellen and found my way to the 19th hole at MRG.  That was not bad but you need to make sure the mountain explorer is running.  ;-0



Yeah. That’s what I was afraid of. If that rumor was true and about a skin track and some glades down through there that would be very cool. 


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 19, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks. it looks a little like poma line @ pico.



Its way tighter than PomaLine at Pico! That’s a super highway compared to accessing the slide. Then it's a good little drop to get into the slide. Then you gotta figure out the rest of the jouney when you re-enter the woods, don't forget about that part of the adventure! Good times coming our way soon!!


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 19, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Yeah. That’s what I was afraid of. If that rumor was true and about a skin track and some glades down through there that would be very cool.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Obviously wishful thinking here, especially now that we live in the days of lawsuits and insurance, but if SB were to do something a la the Angry Beavers of Black Mountain I'm sure their would be plenty of folks willing to lend a few weekends to get something going up there. Throw in a few lift ticket vouchers and you'd have folks lining up to do it. However I know nothing about ski area management so I'm sure there are still plenty of issues such as that the skin track would need to be cut wide enough to get a snowmobile / sled up there which could mean removing stumps, maybe minor blasting, etc.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Obviously wishful thinking here, especially now that we live in the days of lawsuits and insurance, but if SB were to do something a la the Angry Beavers of Black Mountain I'm sure their would be plenty of folks willing to lend a few weekends to get something going up there. Throw in a few lift ticket vouchers and you'd have folks lining up to do it. However I know nothing about ski area management so I'm sure there are still plenty of issues such as that the skin track would need to be cut wide enough to get a snowmobile / sled up there which could mean removing stumps, maybe minor blasting, etc.


some years ago, they used to do that in slidebrook in the summer.  Was fun.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2019)

ducky said:


> I thought as much. Very funny lines - she's a keeper.



And she cooks too!


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## WWF-VT (Nov 19, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Obviously wishful thinking here, especially now that we live in the days of lawsuits and insurance, but if SB were to do something a la the Angry Beavers of Black Mountain I'm sure their would be plenty of folks willing to lend a few weekends to get something going up there. Throw in a few lift ticket vouchers and you'd have folks lining up to do it. However I know nothing about ski area management so I'm sure there are still plenty of issues such as that the skin track would need to be cut wide enough to get a snowmobile / sled up there which could mean removing stumps, maybe minor blasting, etc.




Check out the "Tree Skiing Terrain  Prescriptions" in the 2008 Vegetation Management Plan with the USFS and you will get a better understanding of what can and can't be done: 

http://www.iabsi.com/ski/sugarbush/2008_Sugarbush_Vegetation Management Plan_With_Figures.pdf


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Check out the "Tree Skiing Terrain  Prescriptions" in the 2008 Vegetation Management Plan with the USFS and you will get a better understanding of what can and can't be done:
> 
> http://www.iabsi.com/ski/sugarbush/2008_Sugarbush_Vegetation Management Plan_With_Figures.pdf



I often look at that report and dream about some of that terrain. However, just because its on this plan doesn't mean "it can be done". Act 250 still rules as does the forest service. This was a plan by a third party and not approved by any regulatory authority to my knowledge (Win, that correct?).


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2019)

I think the community forum with Win and Alterra management today was pretty positive. Love that Win actually mentioned Alpine Zone! I think a lot of the "right" things were said. The key will be to see if the action over time matches the talk. Obviously there are some important questions some of us have that answers don't exist for yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

I think one big takeaway is that snowmaking improvements will definitely be at the top of the capital improvement demand list. I don't think there's any question about that after hearing it repeatedly mentioned multiple times.

Rusty may regret giving out his phone number at the end though!


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 21, 2019)

Be smart to blow upper mountain imo. 


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## MorningWoods (Nov 21, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I think the community forum with Win and Alterra management today was pretty positive. Love that Win actually mentioned Alpine Zone! I think a lot of the "right" things were said. The key will be to see if the action over time matches the talk. Obviously there are some important questions some of us have that answers don't exist for yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> I think one big takeaway is that snowmaking improvements will definitely be at the top of the capital improvement demand list. I don't think there's any question about that after hearing it repeatedly mentioned multiple times.
> 
> Rusty may regret giving out his phone number at the end though!



I thought they did a nice job as well. Proof is in the pudding I suppose. It is a sad state of affairs that the primary factor driving capex priorities is climate change, but that is the reality. Working for a large company I understand the comments around capex allocation and how that all works. Hoping that SB continues to get its fair share, because at the end of the day it’s not wins decision anymore. 

While I do have a wish list for the future and most of it is winter related. I hope they heard the comments about MTBing. They are way behind IMHO and I thinks it’s costing them summer traffic. That market has increased significantly. Bikes are significantly better and trails are popping up everywhere. Would think that is a much lower cost investment for them. I’d even consider it at ME, make it a summer MTB epi center. 


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## WinS (Nov 23, 2019)

slatham said:


> I often look at that report and dream about some of that terrain. However, just because its on this plan doesn't mean "it can be done". Act 250 still rules as does the forest service. This was a plan by a third party and not approved by any regulatory authority to my knowledge (Win, that correct?).



Yes, that is correct.


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## machski (Nov 23, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> I thought they did a nice job as well. Proof is in the pudding I suppose. It is a sad state of affairs that the primary factor driving capex priorities is climate change, but that is the reality. Working for a large company I understand the comments around capex allocation and how that all works. Hoping that SB continues to get its fair share, because at the end of the day it’s not wins decision anymore.
> 
> While I do have a wish list for the future and most of it is winter related. I hope they heard the comments about MTBing. They are way behind IMHO and I thinks it’s costing them summer traffic. That market has increased significantly. Bikes are significantly better and trails are popping up everywhere. Would think that is a much lower cost investment for them. I’d even consider it at ME, make it a summer MTB epi center.
> 
> ...


If you are talking cross country mountain biking around the lowest elevations and valley, then yes, it could be low cost.  If you are talking lift served, DH mountain biking, that is no low cost investment.  To do it right you need machine built trails, specialized carriers on the lifts and the upkeep of said trails after they are built is more than you might imagine.  And it has to be right location and marketed correctly.

Case in point, Sunday River.  They closed the bike park this year and it is done.  Never marketed right, terrain is actually a bit too steep here for good easier to intermediate flowy trails making the park loaded with advanced and above trails that were not conducive to learning and progression.  They did allow self climb this year but in just one winter with zero spring trail maintenance, many of the trails had gone to junk and some were impassable.

And in Vermont, Killington is already a huge bike magnet.  They have definitely spent quite a bit of $$ to get it there too.

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## machski (Nov 23, 2019)

I listened to the meeting on FB, all good stuff discussed.  I felt before this went through and Sugarbush were to be merged and still do, Alterra was the one company I'd want to see them in.  As many have noted, talk is cheap and action speaks louder than words, but I do believe Alterra will allow Sugarbush to stay Sugarbush.  Understanding Alterra as a company is still just in its infancy and things can and do change as businesses mature, but their foundations for the brand and values seem strong and are a good match for Sugarbush.  Overall I am optimistic about it's future, with a bit of trepidation to see what full Ikon integration looks like next season on the hill.

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## bdfreetuna (Nov 23, 2019)

machski said:


> Case in point, Sunday River.  They closed the bike park this year and it is done.  Never marketed right, terrain is actually a bit too steep here for good easier to intermediate flowy trails making the park loaded with advanced and above trails that were not conducive to learning and progression.



Pretty typical. It's a lot easier (and safer!) to ski steep stuff than bike down it IMO even with specialized gear ie 10" dual suspension and giant brakes.

I've downhilled at Mt Snow, Killington, Plattekill and Jiminy Peak and Mt Snow seemed to have the most trails that weren't literally death defying. At Plattekill my bike barely survived in functional condition and there were some pretty spectacular wipe-outs among our crew. From what I hear Berkshire East has put together a really nice network of downhill trails and surrounding XC trails, I guess kind of like Burke and Kingdom Trails.


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 23, 2019)

What was skiing like today? I saw on the cams gate house looked more popular 


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's a lot easier (and safer!) to ski steep stuff than bike down it



I tried mountain biking in Park City last summer and found it can be pretty terrifying.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/11/22/new...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-85eab8c42f-405558657


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## WinS (Nov 24, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> What was skiing like today? I saw on the cams gate house looked more popular
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here is some interesting trivia from yesterday.  

53.5% of the people here yesterday were scanned at VH, 40.3% at GH and 6.2% on the Welcome Mat.

For total scans 45% were at VH and 48% were at GH and 7% on the Welcome Mat.

Because we had a pulse surge on GH we were running it a bit slower than normal to make sure the circuit did not trip again until we could make switch change overnight.  That is why the GH line appeared longer that the actual difference in ridership between the two. Having GH open definitely brought people out who would not have skied this early in the season, and it was great to see so many on the Welcome Mat this time of the year.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 24, 2019)

Let's hope Alterra runs Slide Brook more this winter. It's a pain in the ass to take the bus


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## WinS (Nov 24, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Let's hope Alterra runs Slide Brook more this winter. It's a pain in the ass to take the bus



Read my early post on this. We (not Alterra) will make the decision based on safety. It is scheduled to run every day ME is open. There are 40 lift towers and lift maintenance has to be able to get to all quickly and safely on snowmobiles which requires sufficient snow depth. It is also very vulnerable to wind, and we do not run it when temps are below 5 degrees if case an evacuation occurs which it unlikely but still why we will not risk it. 

The bus may be a pain in the ass to,you but it takes the same time and is warmer.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 24, 2019)

The bus ride always stops at every condo there is and is packed with people. When Slide Brook is open it's awesome. What I've noticed is that once there is sufficient snow depth, it is usually a week before it opens due to the grooming of the access roads and other general preparation. Once it's running it usually stays open for most of the season, but it usually isn't until late January that it starts running. Hope to see you again this season. Let's hope it's just as good as last year!!


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> Read my early post on this. We (not Alterra) will make the decision based on safety. It is scheduled to run every day ME is open. There are 40 lift towers and lift maintenance has to be able to get to all quickly and safely on snowmobiles which requires sufficient snow depth. It is also very vulnerable to wind, and we do not run it when temps are below 5 degrees if case an evacuation occurs which it unlikely but still why we will not risk it.
> 
> The bus may be a pain in the ass to,you but it takes the same time and is warmer.



Where is your early post?


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## tumbler (Nov 25, 2019)

Win- what is the terrain expansion plan?  Will Jester, OG Downspout be open this weekend?


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Where is your early post?



On 11/18 he posted about slidebrook when someone questioned its operating schedule.



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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

PS...not too bad out today!


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 25, 2019)

Sweet spring like day  wonderful soft turns 


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## WinS (Nov 25, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Win- what is the terrain expansion plan?  Will Jester, OG Downspout be open this weekend?



Not sure. It depends when temps come back. Probably not until late Weds or early Thursday.  We are shooting to complete Jester and Downspout and Valley Traverse.  Probably need a good 48 hours at least with decent temps.  We were running at very marginal temperatures before we shut down yesterday so production was limited. We also had a pump down in the HG pump house, so we were only running at 2/3rd of capacity but that should be repaired by the time we resume.  We did use the excess water that we could not get up high on the Lower portions of Organgrinder so that will come in faster when we move down there.  Over at ME we will refocus on Rim Run and Elbow.  The Swiss woman will be training on Inverness tomorrow morning.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

Just a bit confused about what you said. What I'm thinking you said is that you'll try to get some terrain off of Bravo open this weekend, but at this stage, that might not be possible. If Bravo won't be open, will more trails off of Gate House or Valley House be open?


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## Hawk (Nov 25, 2019)

Definitely confused.
He said if temps allow they would blow downspout valley house traverse and Jester.  That would mean they are trying to bravo open and maybe Heavens gate.

You must be new around here. Ah.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

Ah, no need to be harsh. I was just a bit confused by the wording. The temps are predicted to be colder Thursday through Sunday, so hopefully, that allows for them to blow some snow. Too bad about the pump!!


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## Domeskier (Nov 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> The bus may be a pain in the ass to,you but it takes the same time and is warmer.



It is also less terrifying.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> It is also less terrifying.



I’ve never found it terrifying myself, but for someone scared of heights, I can see why it would be an issue.


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ah, no need to be harsh. I was just a bit confused by the wording. The temps are predicted to be colder Thursday through Sunday, so hopefully, that allows for them to blow some snow. Too bad about the pump!!



Geez...you thought hawk’s response was harsh? Seemed pretty tame to me lol.

Win’s post was pretty explicit about which trails they are working on next. I’ve reread it a few times and can’t really figure out what wasn’t clear. A route off heavens gate is the goal and VHT is needed to connect the upper mountain to existing lower mountain terrain (or to switch to using bravo instead of the VH chair).


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve never found it terrifying myself, but for someone scared of heights, I can see why it would be an issue.



Only 1 time did I find it pretty close to terrifying. Wind kicked up pretty good in a couple spots and it was a bit of a white knuckle ride. They shut it down shortly after that (very little wind on the rest of the mountain though, so I’m sure people were saying they closed it for no reason but I can personally state that it was fully warranted). When I unloaded the lifty asked if I enjoyed the roller coaster ride. Perfect example of how the wind can be vastly different on different parts of the mountain. I don’t recall any other lifts going on hold that day.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Only 1 time did I find it pretty close to terrifying. Wind kicked up pretty good in a couple spots and it was a bit of a white knuckle ride. They shut it down shortly after that (very little wind on the rest of the mountain though, so I’m sure people were saying they closed it for no reason but I can personally state that it was fully warranted). When I unloaded the lifty asked if I enjoyed the roller coaster ride. Perfect example of how the wind can be vastly different on different parts of the mountain. I don’t recall any other lifts going on hold that day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I was on Valley House one time when the wind kicked up. Chairs were swaying and it was utterly terrifying. After I got off all the Lincoln lifts shut down for the rest of the day. I took a bus packed with people over to Mt. Ellen. 45 minutes later I was on GMX. I was sure missing a sunny day with Slide Brook!!


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## tumbler (Nov 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> Read my early post on this. We (not Alterra) will make the decision based on safety. It is scheduled to run every day ME is open. There are 40 lift towers and lift maintenance has to be able to get to all quickly and safely on snowmobiles which requires sufficient snow depth. It is also very vulnerable to wind, and we do not run it when temps are below 5 degrees if case an evacuation occurs which it unlikely but still why we will not risk it.
> 
> The bus may be a pain in the ass to,you but it takes the same time and is warmer.



Can the dedicated big blue bus going base to base with slide brook stop come back?


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Can the dedicated big blue bus going base to base with slide brook stop come back?



Yes, the small busses are always packed and stop at every single place along the way.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 25, 2019)

I couldn't imagine what it would be like at 10 degree weather, stuck on the lift for a couple of hours during a lift evac.


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## WinS (Nov 25, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes, the small busses are always packed and stop at every single place along the way.



The routes are back to what they were two years ago and hopefully we will have the big bus running consistently on weekends and holidays.


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 25, 2019)

Ok back to skiing it was the best day  yet and tomorrow will be same 


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## rtjcbrown (Nov 25, 2019)

I saw that The Garrison has new owners and will get a major facelift. That place has been stuck in the 70s since the 80s, but has so much potential.


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Ok back to skiing it was the best day  yet and tomorrow will be same
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Looking forward to it. I’ll be out tomorrow for my 3rd day of the season. After that won’t be back until the 2nd week of December.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 25, 2019)

From the webcams, skiing looks pretty good. I'll see how it is next weekend. I imagine that pushover will be skiing better than Spring Fling, but we'll see.


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## tumbler (Nov 25, 2019)

WinS said:


> The routes are back to what they were two years ago and hopefully we will have the big bus running consistently on weekends and holidays.



Great!


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## crazy (Nov 25, 2019)

I can't wait to ski at Sugarbush later on this season. Win and the team have done an excellent job running the place. Happy that, if it has to be sold, Alterra is the buyer. They're cut from a different cloth than Vail. They will recognize and keep what makes Sugarbush special. Win, keep up the great work. Happy that you are staying on and helping with the transition. Cheers to a great season.


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## smac75 (Nov 25, 2019)

rtjcbrown said:


> I saw that The Garrison has new owners and will get a major facelift. That place has been stuck in the 70s since the 80s, but has so much potential.



Same people that bought the Golden Lion. Ever stay at the Garrison? That place was a fire trap! I remember climbing those skinny wooden stairs at the back all the way to the top level. It was the only way up or down from that top floor room.  Creepy!!


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



smac75 said:


> Same people that bought the Golden Lion. Ever stay at the Garrison? That place was a fire trap! I remember climbing those skinny wooden stairs at the back all the way to the top level. It was the only way up or down from that top floor room.  Creepy!!



Pretty small world. They happen to be neighbors back in NJ with one of my coworkers. I knew they had bought something else in the valley a while ago, but only found out this week when I saw the valley reporter article that it was the garrison.


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## WinS (Nov 26, 2019)

crazy said:


> I can't wait to ski at Sugarbush later on this season. Win and the team have done an excellent job running the place. Happy that, if it has to be sold, Alterra is the buyer. They're cut from a different cloth than Vail. They will recognize and keep what makes Sugarbush special. Win, keep up the great work. Happy that you are staying on and helping with the transition. Cheers to a great season.


Thank you and will do!


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 26, 2019)

Hi all, new member to the forum, I am heading up to sugarbush with the family on thanksgiving, I'll post a report after. Hopefully the rain on wednesday doesn't mess things up too badly. we will be skiing all the terrain that's open. 

Hi Win, great to see you are active here.  I spent 3 years living in VT, we look forward to coming back to VT and to SB every year! One of my best memories is skiing from the top of both peaks at SB with my kids ( 7 and 9 at the time ) for the first time last year. they skied the blues great and we got some awesome family pics from the summits.  Good luck going forward!

On the subject of Slidebrook: me and my kids love it. It scares the bejeezus out of my wife, especially the long descent. we call it the slow motion roller coaster. It just seems easier to jump on that than schelping on the bus, but maybe I'll try that this year.

Thanks all, I hope everyone has a great and safe season!


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 26, 2019)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Hi all, new member to the forum, I am heading up to sugarbush with the family on thanksgiving, I'll post a report after. Hopefully the rain on wednesday doesn't mess things up too badly. we will be skiing all the terrain that's open.
> 
> Hi Win, great to see you are active here.  I spent 3 years living in VT, we look forward to coming back to VT and to SB every year! One of my best memories is skiing from the top of both peaks at SB with my kids ( 7 and 9 at the time ) for the first time last year. they skied the blues great and we got some awesome family pics from the summits.  Good luck going forward!
> 
> ...



Slidebrook lift should have had a 2-way midstation for uploading at the bottom, huh?

Haven't skied it yet but I guess Alterra can credit me for that ingenious idea later.


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## WinS (Nov 26, 2019)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Hi all, new member to the forum, I am heading up to sugarbush with the family on thanksgiving, I'll post a report after. Hopefully the rain on wednesday doesn't mess things up too badly. we will be skiing all the terrain that's open.
> 
> Hi Win, great to see you are active here.  I spent 3 years living in VT, we look forward to coming back to VT and to SB every year! One of my best memories is skiing from the top of both peaks at SB with my kids ( 7 and 9 at the time ) for the first time last year. they skied the blues great and we got some awesome family pics from the summits.  Good luck going forward!
> 
> ...



Welcome back. We will have to see what Wednesday brings.  Looks like rain (maybe .4-.6") changing over to snow late on Wednesday.  There does not appear to be an inversion so we could see snow starting earlier on the summits and working its way down.  Snowmaking temps look like they return early Thursday and stay decent for a few days, but early to tell when we can get more terrain in shape to open. Hopefully sometime over the weekend.  Nice soft snow today and tomorrow.  The Swiss women are not liking that, but everyone else is.


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## machski (Nov 26, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Slidebrook lift should have had a 2-way midstation for uploading at the bottom, huh?
> 
> Haven't skied it yet but I guess Alterra can credit me for that ingenious idea later.


Too bad for your idea any type of lift served skiing in Slidebrook is D.O.A.  That is why it doesn't have a ski to midstation.

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## djd66 (Nov 26, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Slidebrook lift should have had a 2-way midstation for uploading at the bottom, huh?
> 
> Haven't skied it yet but I guess Alterra can credit me for that ingenious idea later.



It will never happen.  I'm not going to lie,... it would be awesome.


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## pinnoke (Nov 26, 2019)

The early skiing has been very enjoyable. Fun and soft snow conditions, and some delightful sunshine these past couple of days (Saturday being the exception). Don't let the snow report lead you to believe otherwise. Those of us who have taken advantage of the opportunity for early lift-served turns have been rewarded! Wednesday's later-afternoon weather may actually result in the "wet" snow conditions reported the past couple of afternoons. However, we'll bounce back soon after that as winter settles in for good (hopefully)!


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2019)

pinnoke said:


> The early skiing has been very enjoyable. Fun and soft snow conditions, and some delightful sunshine these past couple of days (Saturday being the exception). Don't let the snow report lead you to believe otherwise. Those of us who have taken advantage of the opportunity for early lift-served turns have been rewarded! Wednesday's later-afternoon weather may actually result in the "wet" snow conditions reported the past couple of afternoons. However, we'll bounce back soon after that as winter settles in for good (hopefully)!



Agreed. Started off with some nice groomed cord first thing this morning and transitioned to nice soft snow as the sun hit the trails.





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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 26, 2019)

looking at the NWS forecast, my biggest worry is the wind....gust to 40 mph....crap...but they may get 3-5 inches of new snow wednesday night...how does the wind effect the gatehouse and valley house lifts? are they low enough on the mountain to be protected at all? I've never been there on a windy day.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 26, 2019)

Wondering if anyone has ever skied every single trail at Sugarbush in one day. It's something that crossed my mind last night while driving home from a nice afternoon of spring skiing. Think it's something to try this winter to shake things up.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 26, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Wondering if anyone has ever skied every single trail at Sugarbush in one day. It's something that crossed my mind last night while driving home from a nice afternoon of spring skiing. Think it's something to try this winter to shake things up.



That would be extremely hard, especially considering that you would have to ski all the condo access trails.


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## WinS (Nov 26, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Wondering if anyone has ever skied every single trail at Sugarbush in one day. It's something that crossed my mind last night while driving home from a nice afternoon of spring skiing. Think it's something to try this winter to shake things up.



I know of at least one who has. There are two ways of thinking about this. One is touching a bit of multiple trails on one lift ride like Murphy’s, Birdland, lower organ grinder, jester, lower downspout, coffee run, spring fling. Or you could make the challenge only one trail every lift ride.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2019)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> looking at the NWS forecast, my biggest worry is the wind....gust to 40 mph....crap...but they may get 3-5 inches of new snow wednesday night...how does the wind effect the gatehouse and valley house lifts? are they low enough on the mountain to be protected at all? I've never been there on a windy day.



So many variables with the wind. Different directions impact different lifts. Every lift at some point as long as I’ve skied here has experienced a wind hold. But I’ve seen plenty of times that forecasts don’t materialize so I try not to worry about it too much until it actually happens.


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> That would be extremely hard, especially considering that you would have to ski all the condo access trails.



All 3 of them? Out to lunch goes right back to the mountain. Cats meow still lets you easily get back to the lifts. Village run is the only one that dumps you further away from any lifts. So just do it last.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> All 3 of them? Out to lunch goes right back to the mountain. Cats meow still lets you easily get back to the lifts. Village run is the only one that dumps you further away from any lifts. So just do it last.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah I was mainly thinking of Village Run. In order to do it, you’d have to be strategic and able to ski tough trails like Middle Earth and Rumble.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 27, 2019)

WinS said:


> I know of at least one who has. There are two ways of thinking about this. One is touching a bit of multiple trails on one lift ride like Murphy’s, Birdland, lower organ grinder, jester, lower downspout, coffee run, spring fling. Or you could make the challenge only one trail every lift ride.



Something else to try at SB which my family and I did it one day is to start on Inverness Quad and hit every upper mtn lift from right to left without going to the base until you finish up on snowball to lower snowball.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 27, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> Something else to try at SB which my family and I did it one day is to start on Inverness Quad and hit every upper mtn lift from right to left without going to the base until you finish up on snowball to lower snowball.



So Inverness, North Ridge, Summit, Slide Brook, North Lynx, Castlerock, and Heaven’s Gate. That would be the order that you would ride them in.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 27, 2019)

Yep


Slidebrook87 said:


> So Inverness, North Ridge, Summit, Slide Brook, North Lynx, Castlerock, and Heaven’s Gate. That would be the order that you would ride them in.


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## Hawk (Nov 27, 2019)

I heard that RFID scanners were installed at all upper mountain lifts.  I have not seen them yet.  Is that rumor or fact?


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I heard that RFID scanners were installed at all upper mountain lifts.  I have not seen them yet.  Is that rumor or fact?



I have heard from Win that they are installing RFID gates on all lifts. The reason for this is to receive more data as to what lifts skiers are riding most. I’m very curious to hear about some of this data. I predict that most people are scanned at Super Bravo and Gate House with GMX probably being second. I’m surprised more people don’t ride North Ridge than GMX. It is a much better way to ski Mt. Ellen as you don’t have to ski the long runout to GMX.


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## WinS (Nov 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I heard that RFID scanners were installed at all upper mountain lifts.  I have not seen them yet.  Is that rumor or fact?



We got a great deal. Sunapee had brand new ones and Vail does not use them. Our plan is to install them on all lifts so we can track usage and develop an APP like Epic Mix that allows one to see their vertical. This is also a safety feature to see where one rode last in case one goes missing.  This year, we only had time to get them on a couple of lifts (CR and NR). Next year we will have them on all.

We learned a lot then we installed them a couple of years ago.  For instance how many were riding the Welcome Mat and Village which led to our decision to try to open the GH and Welcome Mat early this year. Last Saturday we had 150 on the Welcome Mat for instance and our First Time program is full this weekend.

Investment is technology is another thing that I believe Alterra will help us with.


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## Howitzer (Nov 28, 2019)

WinS said:


> We got a great deal. Sunapee had brand new ones and Vail does not use them. Our plan is to install them on all lifts so we can track usage and develop an APP like Epic Mix that allows one to see their vertical. This is also a safety feature to see where one rode last in case one goes missing.  This year, we only had time to get them on a couple of lifts (CR and NR). Next year we will have them on all.
> 
> We learned a lot then we installed them a couple of years ago.  For instance how many were riding the Welcome Mat and Village which led to our decision to try to open the GH and Welcome Mat early this year. Last Saturday we had 150 on the Welcome Mat for instance and our First Time program is full this weekend.
> 
> Investment is technology is another thing that I believe Alterra will help us with.



Happy Thanksgiving. Doesn't the Ikon Pass App have this tracking available in an app format? I understand the user needs to have tracking enabled and the app on so the gates provide user data for all guests.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 28, 2019)

WinS said:


> We got a great deal. Sunapee had brand new ones and Vail does not use them. Our plan is to install them on all lifts so we can track usage and develop an APP like Epic Mix that allows one to see their vertical. This is also a safety feature to see where one rode last in case one goes missing.  This year, we only had time to get them on a couple of lifts (CR and NR). Next year we will have them on all.
> 
> We learned a lot then we installed them a couple of years ago.  For instance how many were riding the Welcome Mat and Village which led to our decision to try to open the GH and Welcome Mat early this year. Last Saturday we had 150 on the Welcome Mat for instance and our First Time program is full this weekend.
> 
> Investment is technology is another thing that I believe Alterra will help us with.



Great to hear about all the benefits of this. I didn’t realize that you were getting them from Sunapee. It’s a shame got rid of RFID at a lot of their resorts. When I skied Whistler last year they still had RFID made by SkiData. Slide Brook could use more than one gate only on the Ellen side. A lot of the times I rode it last year they weren’t even using it because the lines were too long to file through one gate. It will be cool to see how many people ride Castlerock as it’s not exactly a mainstream trail pod...


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## El Bishop (Nov 29, 2019)

Any intel on whether any upper mountain will open this weekend if snowmaking can connect the dots?


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

El Bishop said:


> Any intel on whether any upper mountain will open this weekend if snowmaking can connect the dots?



Pretty sure it will. I expect Super Bravo and possibly Heaven’s Gate to be spinning by tomorrow or Sunday. 


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## WinS (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Pretty sure it will. I expect Super Bravo and possibly Heaven’s Gate to be spinning by tomorrow or Sunday.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Please don't project from a distance.  We will not know until we ski it this morning and see how it is filling in. We will open when there is sufficient depth across trails. We do not want to open Downspout with the land guns running. That is a horrible experience and would prefer to be done since we have other terrain available. Saturday is unlikely.  Sunday maybe  but we won't know until later today. However, the temps are staying down, so next weekend we should really have some good terrain expansion.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Pretty sure it will. I expect Super Bravo and possibly Heaven’s Gate to be spinning by tomorrow or Sunday.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



LOL! Fairly certain El Bishop was directing the question at Win... not you. Try to lower your wishful level of self-importance.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> LOL! Fairly certain El Bishop was directing the question at Win... not you. Try to lower your wishful level of self-importance.



I was just predicting based off of a previous comment of Win. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

Nice day at the bush


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## WinS (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I was just predicting based off of a previous comment of Win.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



The rain the other day did more damage that we thought.  We think it is going to take another two full days of snowmaking to get Jester, Valley Traverse and Downspout done with a sufficient depth.  We will likely let it sit and cure for a couple of days before grooming it out which will take a few shifts with the winch on Downspout.  It we do is  correctly, it is set up well for the year. We are next going to use the temps in the forecast to get to the bottom from Heaven's Gate and also most likely finishing off Lower Grinder next.  By next weekend we should have too ways to the bottom and Bravo and Heaven's gate running. Fingers crossed for Sunday. Hopefully, it will come a bit more Northerly.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

WinS said:


> The rain the other day did more damage that we thought.  We think it is going to take another two full days of snowmaking to get Jester, Valley Traverse and Downspout done with a sufficient depth.  We will likely let it sit and cure for a couple of days before grooming it out which will take a few shifts with the winch on Downspout.  It we do is  correctly, it is set up well for the year. We are next going to use the temps in the forecast to get to the bottom from Heaven's Gate and also most likely finishing off Lower Grinder next.  By next weekend we should have too ways to the bottom and Bravo and Heaven's gate running. Fingers crossed for Sunday. Hopefully, it will come a bit more Northerly.



Ah, other than some ice, the conditions were pretty good today. I’m curious as to when snow making will begin on Gondolier or Coffee Run as either one of those runs is needed if Super Bravo and Heaven’s Gate are going to be open. 


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ah, other than some ice, the conditions were pretty good today. I’m curious as to when snow making will begin on Gondolier or Coffee Run as either one of those runs is needed if Super Bravo and Heaven’s Gate are going to be open.



Neither are needed for Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate to be open.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Neither are needed for Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate to be open.



How would one ski back to the base then after skiing Organgrinder or Downspout? The only way I can think of is to close off lower downspout and force everyone to Heaven’s Gate so they can take Jester to Valley House Traverse. 


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> How would one ski back to the base then after skiing Organgrinder or Downspout? The only way I can think of is to close off lower downspout and force everyone to Heaven’s Gate so they can take Jester to Valley House Traverse.



Exactly...and that's how it is done fairly often in the early season. I thought you were an expert that did all this research? (I really did try so hard to avoid making that last comment...but I'm from NJ so sarcasm runs deep in my blood  )


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Exactly...and that's how it is done fairly often in the early season. I thought you were an expert that did all this research? (I really did try so hard to avoid making that last comment...but I'm from NJ so sarcasm runs deep in my blood  )



I just wouldn’t have thought that it would be practical to force all downspout skiers on to Heaven’s Gate. It seems inefficient to me, but I guess it works.  


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I just wouldn’t have thought that it would be practical to force all downspout skiers on to Heaven’s Gate. It seems inefficient to me, but I guess it works.



Generally speaking most people would be aware that lower DS is not open and that the only reason to take DS is if you want to get on HG to go to the summit.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Generally speaking most people would be aware that lower DS is not open and that the only reason to take DS is if you want to get on HG to go to the summit.



I guess so. I didn’t ski this early in the season last year so that is why I was a bit confused. Last year my first day was around December 12th. All of the Lincoln lifts were open except Castlerock. I don’t think North Lynx was open, but I’m not sure. I can’t wait for more trails to be open. Today gave me a taste of what’s to come this season! 


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 29, 2019)

Win, I have a very important question   -- sorry if you answered it already. Is Nomad Coffee coming back this season?


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2019)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Win, I have a very important question   -- sorry if you answered it already. Is Nomad Coffee coming back this season?




Yes it is.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 30, 2019)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Win, I have a very important question   -- sorry if you answered it already. Is Nomad Coffee coming back this season?



How about the Waffle Cabin? By the way, the new menu at Rumble’s was great! 


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2019)

Interesting approach Sugarbush is taking to open terrain up this year.  If you look over the past several years at all Altera properties they seems to get all the beginner areas open first.  I am not sure if this is the approach Sugarbush is going to use going forward.  If it is, I bet you it won't make many people who read these forums too happy.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> Interesting approach Sugarbush is taking to open terrain up this year.  If you look over the past several years at all Altera properties they seems to get all the beginner areas open first.  I am not sure if this is the approach Sugarbush is going to use going forward.  If it is, I bet you it won't make many people who read these forums too happy.



I can see the value in wanting to spread people out and I think they were lucky this year in that they had the temps to get both a GH route and a VH route open. If they had only had enough temps down low to get the GH route done and couldn't finish Spring Fling/Snowball, then I think you'd hear quite the uproar. I'd reverse the snow-making order personally and hit the VH route first and GH second to avoid such a potential scenario.

Personally I'd rather be T2B before having GH open, but that's me and I get it that the mountain doesn't revolve around what I want. :smile:


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## smac75 (Nov 30, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes it is.



Ha! I was going to ask the same question! Move over Waffle House - gotta make room for Nomad! Such a nice addition to the courtyard.


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> How about the Waffle Cabin? By the way, the new menu at Rumble’s was great!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Waffle back too.


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I can see the value in wanting to spread people out and I think they were lucky this year in that they had the temps to get both a GH route and a VH route open. If they had only had enough temps down low to get the GH route done and couldn't finish Spring Fling/Snowball, then I think you'd hear quite the uproar. I'd reverse the snow-making order personally and hit the VH route first and GH second to avoid such a potential scenario.
> 
> Personally I'd rather be T2B before having GH open, but that's me and I get it that the mountain doesn't revolve around what I want. :smile:



Our goal was get all types of terrain open for opening day.  When you look at the people who have turned out either they would not have come or they would not have had a good experience on advanced terrain like Upper Snowball and Spring Fling.  Out plans are made looking out at the forecast, and we believed we had the hours of cold available  to start on the GH side as well as on Snowball Spring Fling.  Initially, we had about half the tower going on the latter until the GH side was done and then moved to 100%. Not only was this good for guest to  have this terrain but it made a number of our ski instructors happy to have work this early in the season. They have hoped for this for quite a while. This time of year it is all about where the cold temperatures are.


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> Interesting approach Sugarbush is taking to open terrain up this year.  If you look over the past several years at all Altera properties they seems to get all the beginner areas open first.  I am not sure if this is the approach Sugarbush is going to use going forward.  If it is, I bet you it won't make many people who read these forums too happy.



This is now and will be a local mountain decision.  Every resort is different!


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2019)

WinS said:


> Our goal was get all types of terrain open for opening day.  When you look at the people who have turned out either they would not have come or they would not have had a good experience on advanced terrain like Upper Snowball and Spring Fling.  Out plans are made looking out at the forecast, and we believed we had the hours of cold available  to start on the GH side as well as on Snowball Spring Fling.  Initially, we had about half the tower going on the latter until the GH side was done and then moved to 100%. Not only was this good for guest to  have this terrain but it made a number of our ski instructors happy to have work this early in the season. They have hoped for this for quite a while. This time of year it is all about where the cold temperatures are.



In the future when you get the proposed snowmaking upgrades done this all becomes a moot point as ideally you'll then be able to blow on multiple routes at once while you have good temps!

I do hear you though. Like I said, I understand it isn't about what just people like me want. Although to be fair, if for some reason only GH had been open, I wouldn't have made the drive up and skied earlier this week. Getting both GH and VH routes open is definitely quite ideal to satisfy a wider audience.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> In the future when you get the proposed snowmaking upgrades done this all becomes a moot point as ideally you'll then be able to blow on multiple routes at once while you have good temps!
> 
> I do hear you though. Like I said, I understand it isn't about what just people like me want. Although to be fair, if for some reason only GH had been open, I wouldn't have made the drive up and skied earlier this week. Getting both GH and VH routes open is definitely quite ideal to satisfy a wider audience.




But there original plan was to open GH this year.  They/us lucked out with the cold temps for them to blow enough snow and open VH.  I don't know.  based on what Win said about the traffic for the two lifts several post ago it balanced out traffic.  I just didn't know that there were so many beginner skiers jonesing to ski at the beginning of the year.


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2019)

Jester and Valley House Traverse are in good shape so we are pulling the guns off them and moving down to Domino Shoots, Lower Organgrinder and into Gondolier this afternoon.  Downspout still needs more and hopefully 24 hours will do it so we have use that production elsewhere and have two ways down to the base area. The temperatures are looking favorable for most of the week, so we might be able to fill in more of the middle mountain too. We will take advantage of cold temperatures to stay as low as we can this time of year. Some of the trails have a nice crust  base so 6-8" of snow could see some additional expansion.


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## Orca (Nov 30, 2019)

Generally good snowmaking temps and some snow in the forecast. Nice to have things running in a favorable direction.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 30, 2019)

WinS said:


> Jester and Valley House Traverse are in good shape so we are pulling the guns off them and moving down to Domino Shoots, Lower Organgrinder and into Gondolier this afternoon.  Downspout still needs more and hopefully 24 hours will do it so we have use that production elsewhere and have two ways down to the base area. The temperatures are looking favorable for most of the week, so we might be able to fill in more of the middle mountain too. We will take advantage of cold temperatures to stay as low as we can this time of year. Some of the trails have a nice crust  base so 6-8" of snow could see some additional expansion.



I was just noticing the lack of snowmaking on the traverse and Jester at the end of the day. Now I know why. By what time do you plan to have North Lynx open? The snow looked pretty good up there today. 


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I was just noticing the lack of snowmaking on the traverse and Jester at the end of the day. Now I know why. By what time do you plan to have North Lynx open? The snow looked pretty good up there today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



North Lynx is one of the last parts of the mtn they will blow snow on.


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## slatham (Nov 30, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> North Lynx is one of the last parts of the mtn they will blow snow on.



Yes it’s the last “pod” to get snowmaking, but Birch Run sees snowmaking before lots of other trails, typically, like Rip Cord (depending upon high vs low snowmaking temps), Steins, Murphy’s, Birdland, Sleeper, Waterfall, Racers Edge....

Having the extra lift is key.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 30, 2019)

Seems like Spring Fling and Steins have the best snowmaking capacity and equipment. They also seem to hold snow pretty well I imagine that Alterra will want install high efficiency guns on Hot Shot to get it open early along with pushover. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s in Alterra’s best interest to improve the snowmaking on current trails that already have it, not to add it to trails that are currently natural snow only. 


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## WinS (Dec 1, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Seems like Spring Fling and Steins have the best snowmaking capacity and equipment. They also seem to hold snow pretty well I imagine that Alterra will want install high efficiency guns on Hot Shot to get it open early along with pushover. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s in Alterra’s best interest to improve the snowmaking on current trails that already have it, not to add it to trails that are currently natural snow only.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Because of the lift, towers would not work on Hot Shot.  High Efficiency land guns are used there as well as on Sleeper.  Trails like Spring Fling and Stein's are good for Towers.  Numerous others need land guns for a variety of reasons including narrowness of trail or wind exposure.

There are very few if any trails where they is not snowmaking would we want to add it there. We could add some more land guns but we  have just about all the low energy equipment we need. Getting more capacity requires wider diameter pipes and addiitonal pumping capacity.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 1, 2019)

WinS said:


> Because of the lift, towers would not work on Hot Shot.  High Efficiency land guns are used there as well as on Sleeper.  Trails like Spring Fling and Stein's are good for Towers.  Numerous others need land guns for a variety of reasons including narrowness of trail or wind exposure.
> 
> There are very few if any trails where they is not snowmaking would we want to add it there. We could add some more land guns but we  have just about all the low energy equipment we need. Getting more capacity requires wider diameter pipes and addiitonal pumping capacity.



Ah, thanks for the explanation. Among improvements I have noticed, the new lift shack for Gate House looks great. Any idea why it was running close to 600 ft/min today? I sense it was because of a faulty RPD, but I could be wrong. The same thing happened to Super Bravo during late season operations last year. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 1, 2019)

On the note of the old Gate House lift shack, if anyone was wondering, this is what it looked like: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## mikec142 (Dec 1, 2019)

Skied on Thanksgiving day...so much fun.  Was planning to ski Saturday too, but with no new terrain opening, elected to give in to the kids who wanted to see their friends in NJ on Saturday night so we drove home.  All in all a super fun day.  Conditions were fine...a bit scratchy, but considering the rain the day/night before, I was pleased.  Such a great compromise for my family.  I ski with the kids, wife helps my aunt and uncle prepare for dinner, and parents and in-laws drive up...so we all get back to the house right around the same time.

Regarding GH vs. VH...based on the amount of cars I saw in the parking lot, there were a pretty decent amount of families celebrating the holiday at SB.  So having some beginner terrain open makes a lot of sense to me.  Obviously, it's hard to tell from a distance, but the North Lynx lift pod looked surprisingly close to opening given that it's usually the last on the list.  Also, Moonshine looked good (and poached, unless it was ski patrol). 

I probably won't be able to make it back up there until the Christmas week, but I feel like everything is heading in the right direction.  Fingers crossed that the weather continues to cooperate.


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## cdskier (Dec 1, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Obviously, it's hard to tell from a distance, but the North Lynx lift pod looked surprisingly close to opening given that it's usually the last on the list.  Also, Moonshine looked good (and poached, unless it was ski patrol).



I suspect that is a rather deceiving view. Here was North Lynx as of Monday. On Tuesday it had even more bare ground and less snow. Then you had some rain followed by about 3" of snow. It is pretty amazing how good a few inches of fresh snow can make things look though.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 1, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I suspect that is a rather deceiving view. Here was North Lynx as of Monday. On Tuesday it had even more bare ground and less snow. Then you had some rain followed by about 3" of snow. It is pretty amazing how good a few inches of fresh snow can make things look though.
> 
> View attachment 25700



This weekend it definitely had more snow on it than that picture, but still not enough to open it with. Maybe this storm will bring the opening date closer? I sure hope so. 


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## slatham (Dec 1, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> This weekend it definitely had more snow on it than that picture, but still not enough to open it with. Maybe this storm will bring the opening date closer? I sure hope so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



With the 3" of dense wet snow you could surely SKI it. But no way you could OPEN it. Needs over 12" more to open IMHO.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 1, 2019)

Yeah, you could skin up and do it that way, but it honestly just wouldn’t be worth it IMO. 


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 2, 2019)

How are we doing up in the MRV w/ this current storm? Driving back to NJ yesterday after a nice Thanksgiving weekend "home" in Boston got a little dicey thru central CT. Hoping that was a good sign for this thing moving further north. Rain just switched over to snow as I type this from my office in NYC. 

Wont be up to SB until the weekend after next but all this storm hype has me jonesing to purchase a couple day tix in the Catskills this coming weekend to start knocking the rust off!


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2019)

Any terrain expansion updates?  Starting to get a bit boring.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 3, 2019)

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## STREETSKIER (Dec 3, 2019)

IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191203/e0a40e62018c21b8d5f2022d3c7b17f2.jpg[/IMG]


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm quite surprised that Steins doesn't open early. It has great snowmaking, and having it open on opening day would've provided terrain for all abilities. Spring Fling and Pushover get pretty old after awhile.


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## Hawk (Dec 3, 2019)

They only have so much capacity.  2 or 3 trails at a time.  Also the temps play a role.  They did the best with what they got.  I have never seen them blow Steins that early so it is not surprising at all.


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2019)

Hoping Jester, OG and Downspout come online soon with VHT to get to the base.  Then Lower OG and start connecting to it with Lower Jester, Murphy's and Birdland.  

It would have been nice if Lower Snowball->Racers Edge could have been done with Snowball->Fling.


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## slatham (Dec 3, 2019)

I must say I am surprised, even being relatively aware of Sugarbush's snowmaking realities, that there is noting open off the summit. Was there an operational issue somewhere along the line?


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## cdskier (Dec 3, 2019)

Hawk said:


> They only have so much capacity.  2 or 3 trails at a time.  Also the temps play a role.  They did the best with what they got.  I have never seen them blow Steins that early so it is not surprising at all.



I vaguely recall one time they surprised everyone and blew on it early in December. Maybe somewhere in the 3-5 years ago range? But yea, usually early on it is only open if natural snow allows. Other trails are more important. So I'm not surprised at all either that they don't make snow on it this early.


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Hoping Jester, OG and Downspout come online soon with VHT to get to the base.  Then Lower OG and start connecting to it with Lower Jester, Murphy's and Birdland.
> 
> It would have been nice if Lower Snowball->Racers Edge could have been done with Snowball->Fling.



That’s the plan. Probably Thurs or Friday.
Pushing Valley House Traverse,, Jester and Downspout out now and snowmaking on  lower downspout, lower jester and coffee run to have two ways down. If we had not had those warm days and rain they would have been open now.


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## ktrerotola (Dec 3, 2019)

Just received an interesting email from Alterra welcoming me to the Ikon Pass this season and outlining the benefits. I AM a Sugarbush passholder, but have never purchased Ikon. I am, however, signed up for promotional Ikon Pass emails, but this email is clearly targeted at  current Ikon passholders. 

Win: Might this be a pre-closing treat to SB passholders... Ikon privileges this season? Or simply a segmented trigger email gone wrong?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2019)

lol. i'd say the latter.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 3, 2019)

Probably going to head to K-Mart this weekend. 10 trails may be fun for a few hours, but it gets old pretty quickly.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2019)

assuming you are on ikon, this is the one weekend where stratton will be a better bet. killington skied well last week, even the woods, and will ski well again and will have more terrain open this weekend (maybe even superstar pod if they've been able to soften it from the race conditions). but, stratton just got a 2 foot dump, and the woods should be more in play there than at k. for me, it's magic opening day saturday and stratton trees sunday. no brainer.

i agree that 10 trails including greens gets boring fast. i get where sugarbush was coming from with getting gate house open early, and i suppose my ikon visits don't really matter to their bottom line, but they did lose out on the food and beer money i would have spent there, by not having anything interesting open in november at any point.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 3, 2019)

Yeah, we would go to Stratton, but we’re staying at Sugarbush. Killington is easier for a day trip. I skied at Stratton for a few years, but I’ve never skied Killington other than late season Superstar. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2019)

interesting. lots to love at killington. i grew up skiing it with my family every year, and went thru a phase where i was pretty anti and would only ski it late and early season. that's changed over the past few years and i fell back in love with a lot of the terrain. your best bet for tree skiing at this point in the season are the glades on snowdon and between snowdon and rams head. some good unmarked tree skiing also on the north ridge between powerline and ridge run, accessed from ridge run. you can also get to cooper's cabin over there, out of bounds skier's left at the very top of ridge run, which is a fine place for a beer and a toke and a backpack sandwich, and some light tree skiing will take you back to ridge run. the trees between east fall and royal flush may be skiing well. not sure how the julio/anarchy/juanita glades are doing, but the bottom gets very steep so they do need a good amount of snow to even be poachably ok.

if you are ultimately driving back to the NYC area, hit stratton on sunday and shorten your final drive home? that is my general move. ski noVT saturday, stay cheap in rutland, ski soVT on sunday, starting and ending early, home by 7 in brooklyn. this weekend no need to noVT with magic in the game.


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2019)

WinS said:


> That’s the plan. Probably Thurs or Friday.
> Pushing Valley House Traverse,, Jester and Downspout out now and snowmaking on  lower downspout, lower jester and coffee run to have two ways down. If we had not had those warm days and rain they would have been open now.



Beauty, thanks!


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2019)

Email gone astray. I will see what happening.


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I vaguely recall one time they surprised everyone and blew on it early in December. Maybe somewhere in the 3-5 years ago range? But yea, usually early on it is only open if natural snow allows. Other trails are more important. So I'm not surprised at all either that they don't make snow on it this early.



As I have said before, the snowmaking plan is fluid depending on where temps fall. You can’t just jump around, so we are looking at 48-72 hours periods when deciding where to focus. Our trail system requires a lot of land guns which need to be moved around which also takes time, so you do not want to be doing this more than necessary. Usually North Lynx and then Stein’s will be last at LP. But that can change based on conditions. We also try to plan so we make snow on a trail like Hot Shot on a weekday rather than a weekend since the land guns are blowing beneath the lift. There really is a lot that goes into a snow plan other than just hitting a switch. Add to this that we are all understaffed in snowmaking, and we have to be thoughtful in planning shifts.


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2019)

Some trail expansion coming tomorrow. We will be turning Bravo, Heaven's Gate, Gate House and Welcomes Mat.  We will be skiing on a combination of trails with snowmaking and some natural trails which patrol accessed today and believes they are ready to go.  They will get skied in rapidly and will be "Windblown" conditions meaning there will be drifts that are deep in spots and very thin cover elsewhere, so "go slow until your know."  Tomorrow we will be top to bottom via Valley House and will be down by the weekend or earlier via Downspout, Jester and Coffee Run.  Check the ski report but likely opening Birdland, Murphy's, Ripcord and Organgrinder. Snowmaking temps were marginal toda, but we have a couple of good days and nights before we get another rise in temperatures on Sunday lasting for a couple of days and with showers unfortunately before it cools down again.  Likely to see this up and down for the next week or so.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 4, 2019)

cool, glad to see y'all expanding terrain. maybe next weekend, but the forecast is ugly right now.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 4, 2019)

Upslope tonight will help also  sounds like I should bring some rock  gear. To shred the gnar natch pow  waxing!!!!


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 4, 2019)

I think people are confused concerning Stiens.  It was open early last year on natural snow.  Opening weekend November 17th photo


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## cdskier (Dec 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> Snowmaking temps were marginal toda, but we have a couple of good days and nights before we get another rise in temperatures on Sunday lasting for a couple of days and with showers unfortunately before it cools down again.  Likely to see this up and down for the next week or so.



Hah...showers right on schedule for when I'm next back up there of course (I'm coming back up sometime on Sunday).


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## cdskier (Dec 4, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> I think people are confused concerning Stiens.  It was open early last year on natural snow.



Yes, a number of years it has been open early on natural snow. However in 2017 they actually started blowing on it November 20th and had it ready for the weekend after Thanksgiving (I knew I wasn't crazy so I just looked back through this thread to find the discussion about it to make sure I'm not actually losing it). To be fair, I thought it was more than only 2 years ago. I guess time flies!


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## tumbler (Dec 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> Some trail expansion coming tomorrow. We will be turning Bravo, Heaven's Gate, Gate House and Welcomes Mat.  We will be skiing on a combination of trails with snowmaking and some natural trails which patrol accessed today and believes they are ready to go.  They will get skied in rapidly and will be "Windblown" conditions meaning there will be drifts that are deep in spots and very thin cover elsewhere, so "go slow until your know."  Tomorrow we will be top to bottom via Valley House and will be down by the weekend or earlier via Downspout, Jester and Coffee Run.  Check the ski report but likely opening Birdland, Murphy's, Ripcord and Organgrinder. Snowmaking temps were marginal toda, but we have a couple of good days and nights before we get another rise in temperatures on Sunday lasting for a couple of days and with showers unfortunately before it cools down again.  Likely to see this up and down for the next week or so.



Excellent!


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 4, 2019)

wasn't sure the best thread to post this, but FYI mad river glen opening this weekend. just practice slope, but its nice to see them opening up.


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wasn't sure the best thread to post this, but FYI mad river glen opening this weekend. just practice slope, but its nice to see them opening up.




Yes, it is. Hopefully they can have another long season like last year. Matt has been blowing snow whenever he can.


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Hah...showers right on schedule for when I'm next back up there of course (I'm coming back up sometime on Sunday).



Skiing in the rain can be really nice. It is the day after when it cools down that sucks. But if the rain ends with some snow it is totally different.


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## cdskier (Dec 4, 2019)

WinS said:


> Skiing in the rain can be really nice. It is the day after when it cools down that sucks. But if the rain ends with some snow it is totally different.



Yea, unless it is pouring some immature snow doesn't usually stop me. Sometimes visibility can be a problem, but I have had some quite decent days in wet weather otherwise.

And yea, Wednesday after temps drop again could be crappy if there's no back-end snow. I'll just keep hoping that the weather models are way off!


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 5, 2019)

Upslope delivered  big time and still dumping up high  ,some sweet pow runs off hg  today  anyone who can come up here tomorrow will be rewarded  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 5, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Upslope delivered  big time and still dumping up high  ,some sweet pow runs off hg  today  anyone who can come up here tomorrow will be rewarded
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Saw they even dropped the ropes on Paradise. Lets hope that rain staves off!


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 5, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Saw they even dropped the ropes on Paradise. Lets hope that rain staves off!



I got one Sugarbush pass (two if you count Ski Vermont) and saving it for early April but darn that is tempting...

When does Mount Ellen open? Not seeing it on the website. (nm found it Friday Dec 20)


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## tumbler (Dec 6, 2019)

When do the weekend lift hours change for Bravo and HG opening at 8?


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## Hawk (Dec 6, 2019)

The week before Christmas was what I was told. So Sat the 21st I guess.


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2019)

Next weekend


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The week before Christmas was what I was told. So Sat the 21st I guess.



Friday the 20th


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## Hawk (Dec 6, 2019)

So will early Ups start that Saturday Morning the 21st or next weekend the 14th?


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2019)

Hawk said:


> So will early Ups start that Saturday Morning the 21st or next weekend the 14th?



We will start early ups next weekend the 14th


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 6, 2019)

Is the early Heaven’s Gate closing time due to the earlier sunset? I always love to hang out at the summit and get one of the last runs down with hardly any other people [emoji6]


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## WinS (Dec 7, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Is the early Heaven’s Gate closing time due to the earlier sunset? I always love to hang out at the summit and get one of the last runs down with hardly any other people [emoji6]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It is to allow patrol to sweep the upper trails safely before it gets too dark.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 7, 2019)

WinS said:


> It is to allow patrol to sweep the upper trails safely before it gets too dark.



[emoji1360]


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 7, 2019)

Cool day today. Would’ve been much better if my legs didn’t hurt so much. Will Coffee Run be groomed by tomorrow? It was brutal today. Almost fell multiple times. 


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## pinnoke (Dec 7, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Will Coffee Run be groomed by tomorrow? It was brutal today. Almost fell multiple times.
> 
> 
> Simply referring to the app or website's 'Trail Report', usually by mid-afternoon the day prior, will show you the next day's plan. Yes, Coffee Run indicates grooming for tomorrow.


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## Los (Dec 8, 2019)

conditions and coverage were absolutely phenomenal this weekend!!! And that's even without skiing Heaven's Gate (didn't get to it yesterday and was on wind hold today...) Not looking forward to the damage the monday-tuesday warm up will bring...


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## ss20 (Dec 9, 2019)

I can't find a link on the website to the at-mountain lift ticket prices.  I click lift tickets on the website and it only brings me to online rates.  

I'd simply call and ask but hopefully Win sees this and it's brought to his attention his walk-up prices are tough to find.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 9, 2019)

Kind of sad to see the trail count drop by 40 because of this ra*n. 


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## ducky (Dec 9, 2019)

"Kind of sad to see the trail count drop by 40 because of this ra*n."

Conditions today were absolutely prime on the manmade trails. Not bad on the natural trails with more coverage such as Spills and OG but Snowball to Fling was superstar carving material. Pushover was also excellent. 

You never know if you don't go. Hardly any rain at all.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 9, 2019)

ducky said:


> "Kind of sad to see the trail count drop by 40 because of this ra*n."
> 
> Conditions today were absolutely prime on the manmade trails. Not bad on the natural trails with more coverage such as Spills and OG but Snowball to Fling was superstar carving material. Pushover was also excellent.
> 
> You never know if you don't go. Hardly any rain at all.



I’m more talking about tomorrow. Most if not all of the natural trails closed, and it is forecasted to be very warm. Shame. 


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I can't find a link on the website to the at-mountain lift ticket prices.  I click lift tickets on the website and it only brings me to online rates.
> 
> I'd simply call and ask but hopefully Win sees this and it's brought to his attention his walk-up prices are tough to find.



If you do the math they are $139 holiday and $129 regular.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 10, 2019)

mbedle said:


> If you do the math they are $139 holiday and $129 regular.



Being such a large independent resort, having such high ticket prices is nescessary. Once Alterra owns it though, I think tickets at these prices will just be too much. $139 is really only worth it on a weekend like President’s when all trails and lifts (including Slide Brook are open). Never would I visit Sugarbush at a time like Presidents and only ski Lincoln. I would feel the need to ski both mountains to get my money’s worth. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2019)

lol at $139 day rate ever being “worth it”


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol at $139 day rate ever being “worth it”



Also lol at anyone that actually pays walk up rates...if someone hasn’t discovered the internet by now, there’s not much hope for them. 

Although oddly enough I know many people that have no problem paying $100+ for concert  or sporting event tickets for just a few hours of entertainment. (I personally won’t)


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 10, 2019)

Los said:


> conditions and coverage were absolutely phenomenal this weekend!!! And that's even without skiing Heaven's Gate (didn't get to it yesterday and was on wind hold today...)


  HG was open first thing Sunday morning.  Rode it twice & thought it probably should go on windhold, with the way the chairs were swinging.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2019)

ducky said:


> "Kind of sad to see the trail count drop by 40 because of this ra*n."
> 
> Conditions today were absolutely prime on the manmade trails. Not bad on the natural trails with more coverage such as Spills and OG but Snowball to Fling was superstar carving material. Pushover was also excellent.
> 
> You never know if you don't go. Hardly any rain at all.



Yesterday was very nice. I agree that the man made were excellent. The whales on lower og were fun too. The natural snow on lower domino and upper og was great as well.

Today’s a different story. Substantially firmer than I was expecting in many spots. Some definite damage was done by Mother Nature last night. 


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 10, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Whenever they say groomers took the night off I take the next day off  I like to leave it in a good note like yesterday if they had groomed late that would.be best but tough call with weather I’ve been hitting it hard so I’m taking the week  off  


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2019)

The sugar bash is this Saturday but no Grift.  Does anyone know why?  They have been playing the sugar bash for as long as I remember.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Whenever they say groomers took the night off I take the next day off  I like to leave it in a good note like yesterday if they had groomed late that would.be best but tough call with weather I’ve been hitting it hard so I’m taking the week  off
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I know it says no grooming. But it seems like they did make a quick pass this morning on a few trails. There’s no way that much cord is still showing from yesterday. And if you follow those paths you’re finding the softest snow today. 


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 10, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I know it says no grooming. But it seems like they did make a quick pass this morning on a few trails. There’s no way that much cord is still showing from yesterday. And if you follow those paths you’re finding the softest snow today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I saw one on spring fling  this am  I’m happy with my decision  


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2019)

I think the trail count going down to 20 does not mean that the closed trails will not open tomorrow.  Usually they close the natural trails so that they don't get all tracked up and rutted and stay more preserved. They wait for it to harden back up so at least they are smooth.  Maybe not as good as last weekend but at least not totally destroyed.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I think the trail count going down to 20 does not mean that the closed trails will not open tomorrow.  Usually they close the natural trails so that they don't get all tracked up and rutted and stay more preserved. They wait for it to harden back up so at least they are smooth.  Maybe not as good as last weekend but at least not totally destroyed.



From what I saw today on the mountain, we need some natural snow before most of the closed trails will reopen. Maybe some of the closed trails have a skiable line or two, but there’s a ton of bare ground showing through now on many of the trails that had been open on only natural snow.

Here’s looking up OG from DS today. And it has been raining more today since I skied this morning.

And here’s steins and lower bird land as of this morning

Meanwhile yesterday OG looked like this

The good news is temps are dropping and the webcam looks like it has changed to snow up top


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## ss20 (Dec 10, 2019)

mbedle said:


> If you do the math they are $139 holiday and $129 regular.



Thank you for answering...but what does "if you do the math" even mean? :lol:  Is it seriously not posted on the site?

For those curious folks wondering why I'm asking, their PSIA member rate has been 50% off the window rate.  I'm not cruising up to the mountain in my Jaguar paying walk-up rates when the skiing is good lol.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Thank you for answering...but what does "if you do the math" even mean? :lol:  Is it seriously not posted on the site?
> 
> For those curious folks wondering why I'm asking, their PSIA member rate has been 50% off the window rate.  I'm not cruising up to the mountain in my Jaguar paying walk-up rates when the skiing is good lol.



Do the math means if you go to the advanced online sales and use the rates listed and percent savings for each price listed you’ll be able to figure out the window rate.

In the past the window rates were posted online, but not sure if that changed for this year.


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Thank you for answering...but what does "if you do the math" even mean? :lol:  Is it seriously not posted on the site?
> 
> For those curious folks wondering why I'm asking, their PSIA member rate has been 50% off the window rate.  I'm not cruising up to the mountain in my Jaguar paying walk-up rates when the skiing is good lol.



LOL - that cracked me up.


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## flakeydog (Dec 10, 2019)

Two things....

First off, they would need a cardiologist in residence next To the ticket window if they actually posted those but I digress...

Second- ahhrgg! I almost can’t look at the carnage. But I am glad you sent it so we know what is going on. Prob be up there regardless anyway.  That is all...,


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## Orca (Dec 10, 2019)

Scummy if the window rates are not posted on the website -- I couldn't find them. Customers (and potential customers) go the the web site for INFORMATION, and there is a lot of information pushing the product on the site. Just not the actual price of consuming the product in the form of a day of skiing. Boo to Alterra if they are responsible for the deception of cloaking the price until the guy shows up at the window with family in tow. What, turn around now?

Not a very good showing in the "honest Vermont" category. Little steps in the wrong direction add up quickly.


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## Orca (Dec 10, 2019)

Sh*t. I am turning into SB87. Time to turn in and sleep it off.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 10, 2019)

If you go to the website to find the price of tickets it's your own fault if you don't find the option to "Buy Online" and save anywhere from 10% to 45% off by purchasing in advance.


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## ss20 (Dec 10, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> If you go to the website to find the price of tickets it's your own fault if you don't find the option to "Buy Online" and save anywhere from 10% to 45% off by purchasing in advance.



Yeah but lift ticket rates (walk-up) should still be posted.  Like every other public single ski area in existence ever.  And to be honest I'm tired of hearing the "no one ever pays walk-up anymore" and the "you're a fool to pay walk-up" comments.  Many people still fork over $100 and buy lift tickets at the mountain.  


It's probably just some IT guy never hit "publish" when editing the website for 2019-2020 and never posted it online or whatever and that's partially why I posted the question to get Win's attention on the issue.


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## ss20 (Dec 10, 2019)

Orca said:


> Scummy if the window rates are not posted on the website -- I couldn't find them. Customers (and potential customers) go the the web site for INFORMATION, and there is a lot of information pushing the product on the site. Just not the actual price of consuming the product in the form of a day of skiing. Boo to Alterra if they are responsible for the deception of cloaking the price until the guy shows up at the window with family in tow. What, turn around now?
> 
> Not a very good showing in the "honest Vermont" category. Little steps in the wrong direction add up quickly.



I'm very very sure it's just an oversight on someone's part and not SB trying to be "scummy".  In no way would advertising the walk-up rate hurt SB (in a way I can understand, at least).


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## Orca (Dec 10, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I'm very very sure it's just an oversight on someone's part and not SB trying to be "scummy".  In no way would advertising the walk-up rate hurt SB (in a way I can understand, at least).



I'm not so sure. I'd bet it was very very intentional.


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## djd66 (Dec 11, 2019)

This was sent by Julius back in October ‘19

Not sure why the walk-up price is not on the site,... it definitely should be.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2019)

Orca said:


> I'm not so sure. I'd bet it was very very intentional.



LOL - absolutely was intentional. Take a look at some other high priced sites and you'll see they don't list walkup prices.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 11, 2019)

Hawk said:


> The sugar bash is this Saturday but no Grift.  Does anyone know why?  They have been playing the sugar bash for as long as I remember.



Yeah. That’s a bummer. Was looking forward to seeing them. I don’t know the other band. I also don’t see the grift listed on any other events this year. I may have missed it though. 


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## machski (Dec 11, 2019)

Or SB as others have has/is transitioning to a dynamic pricing model for walk up tickets.  So the price on a given day can fluctuate based on demand.  Many are now doing this so they don't have a solid number.  Those that do this do usually post the maximum price for a ticket in the season.  For example, Vail's daily price fluctuates but they have a maximum day price of $219 this season.  Nuts, I know.  They probably don't cut too much off that, was just out and Sunday with only 19% of their terrain open, it was $179 (used my buddies Epic fiend so at least didn't pay that much).

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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2019)

FWIW, last year I don’t think they posted the walk up rates online until we actually hit the point where we were in regular season rates instead of early season rates.


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## 1dog (Dec 11, 2019)

What was the rate in 1980? If it was $40 then $120 would be about right for inflation figures. Still not a fair comparison because in 1980 other than a season pass there were no other options to ski for a more competitive rate.


I didn't start until Spring of 1982 and half day at K-Mart was $12 full day I think was $22 or $24. Rentals were $10 for half day. - I made $18K a year.

Assuming Bush was the same, stand alone rate of $75 would be about right. But there are far more options and the market will bear what it will bear. 

Dynamic pricing is happening everywhere - within seconds prices change on Amazon, Ebay, etc.

Its a private business and they can do whatever they want. Even if I had the means, I would not purchase a Bentley for $350K. 

Or a $5M house at Vail or Canyons w a heated drive and walkway. But some do. Happy to have them support the people who build all that stuff. ( and pay the majority of income taxes to the feds)

Its all interesting because its not a growing sport - few are - but fascinating to watch it all unfold. creative destruction.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 11, 2019)

FWIW - After early season, it's $139 for the walk up rate for All Mountain day tickets weekend/holidays and $129 weekdays

The math really isn't that hard to do


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## HowieT2 (Dec 11, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Yeah. That’s a bummer. Was looking forward to seeing them. I don’t know the other band. I also don’t see the grift listed on any other events this year. I may have missed it though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Is that even possible?  That would be extremely disappointing.  almost as much as the forecast for saturday.


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## Hawk (Dec 11, 2019)

MorningWoods said:


> Yeah. That’s a bummer. Was looking forward to seeing them. I don’t know the other band. I also don’t see the grift listed on any other events this year. I may have missed it though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They are on the schedule for Jan 11 and Feb 3 for Castlerock pub.  They are also playing the Hostel on New Year's Eve.  I was just psyched to see them this weekend.  They must of had a prior engagement.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hawk said:


> They are on the schedule for Jan 11 and Feb 3 for Castlerock pub.  They are also playing the Hostel on New Year's Eve.  I was just psyched to see them this weekend.  They must of had a prior engagement.



I think I saw them at the hostel last new years eve or thereabouts.  great show


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## ducky (Dec 11, 2019)

Today's conditions were not bad given the amount of rain yesterday. Admittedly, limited terrain and really only Upper Jester to SF, and Pushover/Slowpoke on GH. It was first-day groomed large-granular and will improve over the next few days until the rain hits Sat. Lots of snowmaking going on and they seem to be leaving the whales for preservation's sake.

Could it be all this rain means we won't see any more, like the usual Christmas rain-out? Let's hope.


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## WinS (Dec 11, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I'm very very sure it's just an oversight on someone's part and not SB trying to be "scummy".  In no way would advertising the walk-up rate hurt SB (in a way I can understand, at least).




Haven’t been on for a few days. It should be posted so will check on it on the am.  And, yes, very few buy at the window any more but it is still info one should have.


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## WinS (Dec 11, 2019)

ducky said:


> Today's conditions were not bad given the amount of rain yesterday. Admittedly, limited terrain and really only Upper Jester to SF, and Pushover/Slowpoke on GH. It was first-day groomed large-granular and will improve over the next few days until the rain hits Sat. Lots of snowmaking going on and they seem to be leaving the whales for preservation's sake.
> 
> Could it be all this rain means we won't see any more, like the usual Christmas rain-out? Let's hope.



The groomers did a really good job. Went over the trails 4 or 5 times. I did not get out until noon and it was still good. The early runs were better. Second grooming tonight will make it bette tomorrow.  We are also knocking down a lot of the Whales tonight on Lower Downspout, Domino Chutes, Lower Jester and Gondolier. Probably can not get to all of Lower Organgrinder tonight. Snowmaking at LP on Sleeper and Hot Shot and on Straight Shot and Terrain Park at ME.

Unfortunately warming up again Friday with rain on Saturday. Maybe ending in some snow. But...........next week looks a lot better and yes maybe we have this roller coaster over before the usual timing over The Holidays.

We have had a number of different band for the Sugar Bash over the years. Does anyone remember the Motor Booty?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 11, 2019)

is soul monde going to play again at any point? that was a very cool surprise walking into castlerock pub one day last season or the year prior and seeing trey's main dudes throwing down casually in the corner.


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## ss20 (Dec 11, 2019)

WinS said:


> Haven’t been on for a few days. It should be posted so will check on it on the am.  And, yes, very few buy at the window any more but it is still info one should have.



And the conspiracy of the unposted SB lift ticket rates gets put to rest... :lol:


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 12, 2019)

:lol:

YOu've got to love when the owner comes in and tells it to us Yahoos like it really is.  Thanks again Win for being transparent with this group of hardcore skiers.  A lot of people wouldn't put up with us...  :lol:


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## MorningWoods (Dec 12, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I think I saw them at the hostel last new years eve or thereabouts.  great show



Cool. Will be there for the Jan 11 show. Given the crowds the grift draws hopefully they will opening up main lodge again. Went to the 90’s night last year and they were awesome. I didn’t see that in the schedule, but wouldn’t mind seeing that again. 


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## HowieT2 (Dec 12, 2019)

WinS said:


> The groomers did a really good job. Went over the trails 4 or 5 times. I did not get out until noon and it was still good. The early runs were better. Second grooming tonight will make it bette tomorrow.  We are also knocking down a lot of the Whales tonight on Lower Downspout, Domino Chutes, Lower Jester and Gondolier. Probably can not get to all of Lower Organgrinder tonight. Snowmaking at LP on Sleeper and Hot Shot and on Straight Shot and Terrain Park at ME.
> 
> Unfortunately warming up again Friday with rain on Saturday. Maybe ending in some snow. But...........next week looks a lot better and yes maybe we have this roller coaster over before the usual timing over The Holidays.
> 
> We have had a number of different band for the Sugar Bash over the years. Does anyone remember the Motor Booty?



motor booty was great.  that was the 50th anniversary party, right?


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## Hawk (Dec 12, 2019)

Ha!  The motor booty was a common and consistent act at Sunday River 20 years ago and I thought I left them behind until they showed up to Sugarbush.  Honestly I have seen them too much and they are not nearly as good as the Grift.


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## tumbler (Dec 12, 2019)

So i see Sleeper for the weekend, will anything else be joining it?


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## ducky (Dec 12, 2019)

Another fine groomer day for carving, if you like that sort of thing, as I do. The chunks from yesterday were gone completely. Limited terrain but great conditions. Lower DS was groomed flat so less death-defying back to base. Saw guns running on Sleeper and Hot Shot. Looks like whales still to be groomed on Lower OG and Lower Jester.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2019)

tumbler said:


> So i see Sleeper for the weekend, will anything else be joining it?



Only other potential route would be the waterfall/hot shot route. Snowmaking looked like it was making good progress on those today. Not sure how much longer it needs. I can only go by what I saw from the lift.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2019)

ducky said:


> Another fine groomer day for carving, if you like that sort of thing, as I do. The chunks from yesterday were gone completely. Limited terrain but great conditions. Lower DS was groomed flat so less death-defying back to base. Saw guns running on Sleeper and Hot Shot. Looks like whales still to be groomed on Lower OG and Lower Jester.



Groomers were quite nice today. Always amazes me how they can groom those whales out into such a smooth surface. I’d have to imagine they were pretty firm whales after the rain and refreeze. You’d really never know that today was the first groom on lower DS.

Against my better judgement I tried lower og today for some reason. Quite frozen solid and looking forward to that being groomed out now. The GMVS kids that were at LP seemed to enjoy it though and flew down it pretty quickly. I didn’t particularly care for it and should have listened to my initial instinct to avoid it today.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Groomers were quite nice today. Always amazes me how they can groom those whales out into such a smooth surface. I’d have to imagine they were pretty firm whales after the rain and refreeze. You’d really never know that today was the first groom on lower DS.
> 
> Against my better judgement I tried lower og today for some reason. Quite frozen solid and looking forward to that being groomed out now. The GMVS kids that were at LP seemed to enjoy it though and flew down it pretty quickly. I didn’t particularly care for it and should have listened to my initial instinct to avoid it today.
> 
> ...



Didn't get to everything last night so grooming out all the whales on Domino Chute, Jester and Lower Organgrinder. Will keep snowmaking on Sleeper and Waterfall and Hot Shot as long a we can but they will likely we in the morning as it warms up and then he could open them.  They should ski nicely.  I doubt in much more terrain will be opened. We could get some snow at the end of the rain on Saturday and then will have to wait and see on the Tuesday storm. Looks like we will resume snowmaking sometime on Sunday and will look at the forecast on Saturday to see where we go next. ME open Friday so we will have that terrain for next weekend.


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## Greg (Dec 12, 2019)

WinS said:


> Didn't get to everything last night so grooming out all the whales on Domino Chute, Jester and Lower Organgrinder. Will keep snowmaking on Sleeper and Waterfall and Hot Shot as long a we can but they will likely we in the morning as it warms up and then he could open them.  They should ski nicely.  I doubt in much more terrain will be opened. We could get some snow at the end of the rain on Saturday and then will have to wait and see on the Tuesday storm. Looks like we will resume snowmaking sometime on Sunday and will look at the forecast on Saturday to see where we go next. ME open Friday so we will have that terrain for next weekend.



Hey there Win! Hope all is well. Hoping you get a reload next week. Heading up a week from Saturday for a few days.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2019)

Greg said:


> Hey there Win! Hope all is well. Hoping you get a reload next week. Heading up a week from Saturday for a few days.


Great. Look forward to seeing you. Give me a shout when you are here.


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## Orca (Dec 13, 2019)

Damnit Win! Can you quit with the rain!


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 13, 2019)

This seems to be the last of it thankfully. I’d rather see the rain now than mid season. 


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## Orca (Dec 13, 2019)

Is my Sugarbush pass (all mountain pass, full boat, no special 20s, 30s price) good for any Ikon-associated mountain discounts? Like free or reduced ticket prices? Haven't been paying much attention to this.


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## WinS (Dec 13, 2019)

Orca said:


> Damnit Win! Can you quit with the rain!


Our strategy is getting it done before the Holidays this year!


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 13, 2019)

You should invest in a giant tarp to cover all of Sugarbush!! Lol 


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## WinS (Dec 13, 2019)

Orca said:


> Is my Sugarbush pass (all mountain pass, full boat, no special 20s, 30s price) good for any Ikon-associated mountain discounts? Like free or reduced ticket prices? Haven't been paying much attention to this.




No. All is status quo this year.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 14, 2019)

Excellent sno conditions today and how about that.Bird land  /glade action  lots of sweet soft runs all over hot shot was nice too over twenty thousand vert  whoo


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## ss20 (Dec 15, 2019)

Everyone's attention please....on-mountain, at-window, day-of GENUINE lift tickets are now posted on the website!!!!

https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/day-of-tickets/

Please put away the tin foil hats!!!

But seriously, thanks Win!


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## Hawk (Dec 16, 2019)

Saturday ended up being pretty good.  The heavy rain let up in the morning and it ended up being soft and fun.  Nice to ski without any crowds to speak of and we did many laps covering all open terrain.  And some not so open. ;-)  Great apre with all locals and pass holders.  The sugar bash without the grift ended up being surprisingly great.  lots of dancing and good times.  Highlight for me was Franklin's Tower.

Sunday was very firm and fast.  We bugged out after about 10 runs.  The few trails that were open were very populated.  This weekend will be a 3 dayer.  Hope mother nature is kind to us.


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## Greg (Dec 16, 2019)

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what it might take to get some of the natural trails opened back up. Doesn't look like anything major is in the forecast, but I'm betting some rounds of upslope set up between now and the weekend. Just concerned if it will be enough to reopen things like Twist/Moonshine, Mall or Spills. How close was Castlerock before the weekend warmup? Keeping my reservation for the weekend for now, but would rather not burn days if it's just gonna be a groomer fest.


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## mbedle (Dec 16, 2019)

ss20 said:


> everyone's attention please....on-mountain, at-window, day-of genuine lift tickets are now posted on the website!!!!
> 
> https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/day-of-tickets/
> 
> ...



lol


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## AbominableSnowman (Dec 16, 2019)

mbedle said:


> lol



So much for dOrca's conspiracy theory....:-o


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2019)

Greg said:


> Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what it might take to get some of the natural trails opened back up. Doesn't look like anything major is in the forecast, but I'm betting some rounds of upslope set up between now and the weekend. Just concerned if it will be enough to reopen things like Twist/Moonshine, Mall or Spills. How close was Castlerock before the weekend warmup? Keeping my reservation for the weekend for now, but would rather not burn days if it's just gonna be a groomer fest.



Spills was reopened today.  As was organgrinder, Murphy’s and upper birdland on all natural. Of course it is just a tiny bit of powder on top of frozen bumps and/or bare ground at the moment...so may not be worth skiing to everyone. 

To make them a bit more enjoyable we’ll need some snow. Hoping we do get more than forecast over the next few days as I’m definitely reaching my limit of skiing mostly groomers all day. While I did ski OG and Murphy’s today, didn’t think either was worth more than 1 run. That’s me though. I’m sure someone out there would lap them.


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## 1dog (Dec 16, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Saturday ended up being pretty good.  The heavy rain let up in the morning and it ended up being soft and fun.  Nice to ski without any crowds to speak of and we did many laps covering all open terrain.  And some not so open. ;-)  Great apre with all locals and pass holders.  The sugar bash without the grift ended up being surprisingly great.  lots of dancing and good times.  Highlight for me was Franklin's Tower.
> 
> Sunday was very firm and fast.  We bugged out after about 10 runs.  The few trails that were open were very populated.  This weekend will be a 3 dayer.  Hope mother nature is kind to us.



Started at 12:30 Sunday - snowing pretty hard all day at the house - more on the hill- softer and silkier than I imagined - skied to 4 PM and it was still soft - only scratch was lower Organ - and some under GH lift.

Much better than anticipated and more snow than reported ( 3") 

Outside of Blazers there were few on the hill so that made it great -  even Jester - usually boring for me - skied very well.

Still, we need a foot or two - snow next day or two and no above freezing temps for a week ahead.


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## Greg (Dec 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Spills was reopened today.  As was organgrinder, Murphy’s and upper birdland on all natural. Of course it is just a tiny bit of powder on top of frozen bumps and/or bare ground at the moment...so may not be worth skiing to everyone.



Thanks for the update! That's promising and worth it to me! Hoping the midweek events over-deliver and something materializes for Saturday into Sunday. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 16, 2019)

I was wondering, is there a trick to ski Murphey’s? I always hate the fall line that makes you “fight” the trail the whole way down. Never liked it as much as trails like Domino. 


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I was wondering, is there a trick to ski Murphey’s? I always hate the fall line that makes you “fight” the trail the whole way down. Never liked it as much as trails like Domino.



Care to elaborate? I have absolutely no idea what you mean. I’ve never felt like I had to fight anything on Murphy’s and can ski any number of lines that I want on it.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Care to elaborate? I have absolutely no idea what you mean. I’ve never felt like I had to fight anything on Murphy’s and can ski any number of lines that I want on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Essentially what happens is I want to ski down the middle of it at a decent pace, but instead, to stay in the middle of the trail, I have to angle my tips towards the skiers right side of the trail. This slows down my speed and just makes it a forgettable trail in my opinion. It’s almost like the whole trail is on an angle if you know what I mean. 


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## Greg (Dec 16, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s almost like the whole trail is on an angle if you know what I mean.



Referred to as a double fall line. Like any other terrain that's "uncomfortable", just keep at it and it will come easier over time.


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Essentially what happens is I want to ski down the middle of it at a decent pace, but instead, to stay in the middle of the trail, I have to angle my tips towards the skiers right side of the trail. This slows down my speed and just makes it a forgettable trail in my opinion. It’s almost like the whole trail is on an angle if you know what I mean.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yea, like Greg said it has a bit of a double fall line, but I’ve never felt it was that much of one that changes the way I need to ski it.  When conditions are good I like that trail. Actually I personally really like it early season when it has enough natural to open before they make snow on it. Last December it had a lot of fun smallish all natural moguls. Once they make snow on it and start grooming it, it tends to get wind blown very easily and I find it less interesting.


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## tumbler (Dec 16, 2019)

Never really been a fan of Murphy’s “Glades”. I like Birdland much better.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 16, 2019)

Can’t wait to ski Ellen. Lincoln is nice, but gets a bit boring after skiing it for awhile. Hoping for a big dump towards the end of the month to get Slide Brook open earlier than MLK weekend. Any idea what terrain we’ll see on Ellen’s opening day? I remember that Summit opened last during last ski season. 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



tumbler said:


> Never really been a fan of Murphy’s “Glades”. I like Birdland much better.



That “glade” must be down to a handful of trees by now.  If I recall they were birches. 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Essentially what happens is I want to ski down the middle of it at a decent pace, but instead, to stay in the middle of the trail, I have to angle my tips towards the skiers right side of the trail. This slows down my speed and just makes it a forgettable trail in my opinion. It’s almost like the whole trail is on an angle if you know what I mean.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There’s a lot of double fall-line stuff at Sugarbush.  It makes for good technical expert terrain IMHO.  


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2019)

I love Murphy's and ski it all the time.  There is no defined "way" to ski it.  Sometimes I ski it far left on the tree line.  Some times far right.  Some times  Right down zee middle!


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I think that double fall line trails ski much better when they have natural snow and are bumped up. When Murphey’s is groomed, it’s really hard to get a good rhythm going for your turns. 


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2019)

Murphys is usually only groomed on one side.  The left side.  it is seldom groomed on the right.  Just ski it and move around.  you will find something you like.


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## Julius (Dec 17, 2019)

Hawk said:


> .. Sometimes I ski it far left on the tree line.  Some times far right.  Some times  Right down zee middle!



Ha,..nice.  Murphs has a little for everyone.  I love dropping in hard skiers left (with a little speed from bravo lift) and stay left as usually holds the sluff best. Certainly a fun one.. 

(couple nice pics looking down Murphs skiers left, 2nd pic is looking up still smiling)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








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## tumbler (Dec 17, 2019)

When I do ski it, it is almost always skiers left too


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## El Bishop (Dec 17, 2019)

Win, it looks like it's going to stay cold through new years (knock on wood).  Does the snowmaking plan include Steins and Ripcord, which seem to be a bit behind schedule.  It would be GREAT to get those online for the holiday week.  Thanks!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2019)

Personally, Murphy's is one of my favorites on LP.  I also like Birdland.  Lower Birdland is interesting.  I remember when ASC used to try to cover it with tons of snowmaking.  Never seemed to work.


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## cdskier (Dec 17, 2019)

tumbler said:


> When I do ski it, it is almost always skiers left too



Hah. I actually usually prefer skiers right on Murphy’s since it is never groomed. Nice low angle bumps that sometimes can catch the snow blown off the middle of the trail.


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## Greg (Dec 17, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Can’t wait to ski Ellen. Lincoln is nice, but gets a bit boring after skiing it for awhile.



Amazing how perceptions differ. I'm the complete opposite. If everything is open, I can't see getting bored of LP. Ellen has some great skiing, but I find myself usually only skiing there for a few hours before wanting to go back to south. Anything below the north ridge chair is hardly worth skiing IMO.


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## rocks860 (Dec 17, 2019)

I usually prefer skiers left of Murphy’s, especially when the snow is good.


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2019)

Greg said:


> Amazing how perceptions differ. I'm the complete opposite. If everything is open, I can't see getting bored of LP. Ellen has some great skiing, but I find myself usually only skiing there for a few hours before wanting to go back to south. Anything below the north ridge chair is hardly worth skiing IMO.



There are so many Mt Ellen people out there.  I like Mt Ellen but only to visit.  I much prefer to have my place over at Lincoln village.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 17, 2019)

For me, I spend so much time at Lincoln that it’s like a fresh breath of air skiing over there. I also like how it gets so sunny. At Ellen I can eat at Walt’s, but at Lincoln I have to eat in a cafeteria. Mid season I do some early runs at Lincoln and ride Slide Brook over, have lunch, ski, then head back at 3:00. I immediately go to the summit and wait up top until Heaven’s Gate has shut down for the day. 


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## mikec142 (Dec 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Hah. I actually usually prefer skiers right on Murphy’s since it is never groomed. Nice low angle bumps that sometimes can catch the snow blown off the middle of the trail.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I love this thread simply for the differences in how people view things.  I like Murphy's a lot.  Even though the "glade" is barely there at this point, I love that there are trees in the middle of the trail that you can ski in (same thing with Sleeper).  That said, to me, skiers right always looks more appealing (bumps, etc.) but I rarely ski Murphy's on a powder day so the skier's right is often pretty scratchy and thus I prefer the groomed part on skier's left.  I can totally see the appeal of Murphy's skier's right on a snow day and will make it a point to try it, but my first choice when fresh snow is on the ground is Castlerock.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 17, 2019)

mount ellen squad 4 lyphe yo.


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2019)

I ski the whole mountain.  On trail, off trail, between the trails, off the side of the resort, behind the resort, everywhere.  I have no favorites.  Where I am skiing is my favorite run at that particular point in time.  That way it is always really fun.  I am not a fan of any particular place.  I am a fan of Sugarbush as a whole.  I certainly do not want to waste time or energy wanting or waiting for some particular area to open because it is all good.  Isn't it?


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Hah. I actually usually prefer *skiers right* on Murphy’s since it is never groomed. Nice low angle bumps that *sometimes can catch the snow blown off the middle of the trail*.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


^^^^This.   and sometimes it blows out of the woods.


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## shadyjay (Dec 17, 2019)

I've never been a big fan of Murphy's.  Don't know why, but I've had more bad times on that trail than good times.  Past couple seasons, I've enjoyed the left side better.  But given the option, I'll take Birdland over Murph's any day.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 17, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Can’t wait to ski Ellen. Lincoln is nice, but gets a bit boring after skiing it for awhile. Hoping for a big dump towards the end of the month to get Slide Brook open earlier than MLK weekend. Any idea what terrain we’ll see on Ellen’s opening day? I remember that Summit opened last during last ski season.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I was there for opening day, I think it was two years ago.  It was -19 below and the mountain picked up something crazy like 6 feet of snow in December.  Exterminator that day skied bottomless, what a great feeling.


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## WinS (Dec 18, 2019)

El Bishop said:


> Win, it looks like it's going to stay cold through new years (knock on wood).  Does the snowmaking plan include Steins and Ripcord, which seem to be a bit behind schedule.  It would be GREAT to get those online for the holiday week.  Thanks!



Yes. we have been taking advantage of the colder temperatures getting the lower part of the mountain completed. Today, we have moved to Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge and putting finishing touches on Easy Rider. These next two days should get it done and then we will move up. With Towers those trails can be skied with snowmaking going. ME will have much of it open but not sure all natural trails will have enough snow, but we will see tomorrow after tonight’s snowfall.


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## Hawk (Dec 18, 2019)

Steins is also on the snow report as having ongoing snow making.


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## shipyardcreek (Dec 18, 2019)

I skied that day.  The snow was so cold it was like skiing in sand.  I had waxed for Saturday's conditions.  On Sunday it was over 40 deg. and raining.


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## cdskier (Dec 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Steins is also on the snow report as having ongoing snow making.



They just finished lighting it up within the past hour or so.


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## WinS (Dec 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> They just finished lighting it up within the past hour or so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes, decided to move there first with the cold lower elevation temps.  Easy Rider should be in good shape by tomorrow afternoon. We do have a curtailment tomorrow from 5-9pm so will be shut down. Maybe another on Friday. It takes a few hours to come down and another few to restart, so a lot of production hours get lost. We have decided to move the land gear from Hot Shot and Sleeper up to North Lynx and focus there over the weekend with that area closed. Then we will have it for next week when we can finish first wave of snowmaking with Birdland, Murphy’s, Ripcord and Organgrinder. Another nice squalls is producing a couple of more inches of snow this afternoon.


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## djd66 (Dec 18, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes, decided to move there first with the cold lower elevation temps.  Easy Rider should be in good shape by tomorrow afternoon. We do have a curtailment tomorrow from 5-9pm so will be shut down. Maybe another on Friday. It takes a few hours to come down and another few to restart, so a lot of production hours get lost. We have decided to move the land gear from Hot Shot and Sleeper up to North Lynx and focus there over the weekend with that area closed. Then we will have it for next week when we can finish first wave of snowmaking with Birdland, Murphy’s, Ripcord and Organgrinder. Another nice squalls is producing a couple of more inches of snow this afternoon.



Is the curtailment due to energy use restrictions?  How often does that happen during the year?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2019)

djd66 said:


> Is the curtailment due to energy use restrictions?  How often does that happen during the year?



Good questions.  Curious myself.  I imagine those are peak hours for usage.


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## slatham (Dec 18, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Good questions.  Curious myself.  I imagine those are peak hours for usage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes my understanding is that based on contract with GMP under certain circumstances - major cold wave - at set times they have to reduce or eliminate snowmaking power consumption. By definition this occurs during optimal snowmaking conditions. I believe they can opt out but at a very high price. 


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## NYDB (Dec 19, 2019)

Anyone know approx. how many trails are going to be open on North Friday?  "Big Chunk'' per the snow report seems a bit nebulous.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2019)

T-Minus one day until ME opens.  I remember a pretty sick opening day I had there a few years back.


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## Greg (Dec 19, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> Anyone know approx. how many trails are going to be open on North Friday?  "Big Chunk'' per the snow report seems a bit nebulous.



Interested as well. Wondering what if any nattys will be opening. Stein's is open with whales it seems. Happy that I held onto the reservation for the weekend. With Ellen joining the mix, the weekend looks solid! Good weather too.


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## cdskier (Dec 19, 2019)

Greg said:


> Interested as well. Wondering what if any nattys will be opening. Stein's is open with whales it seems. Happy that I held onto the reservation for the weekend. With Ellen joining the mix, the weekend looks solid! Good weather too.



The whales on steins aren’t that tall yet, but the gun powder was pretty silky and nice. Wind right now is blowing the snow off most of the trails though. Upper mountain is not too windy, but from allyns lodge down is pretty brutal.

Looking forward to Ellen tomorrow!


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## Greg (Dec 19, 2019)

Mt Ellen open trails posted  https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/snow-report/

A few nattys coming online!


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## ducky (Dec 19, 2019)

MRG opens Friday too.


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## Greg (Dec 20, 2019)

Pretty much all of Gadd and LP aside from Paradise opened up! Whoot!


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## WinS (Dec 20, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes, decided to move there first with the cold lower elevation temps.  Easy Rider should be in good shape by tomorrow afternoon. We do have a curtailment tomorrow from 5-9pm so will be shut down. Maybe another on Friday. It takes a few hours to come down and another few to restart, so a lot of production hours get lost. We have decided to move the land gear from Hot Shot and Sleeper up to North Lynx and focus there over the weekend with that area closed. Then we will have it for next week when we can finish first wave of snowmaking with Birdland, Murphy’s, Ripcord and Organgrinder. Another nice squalls is producing a couple of more inches of snow this afternoon.



Bit of a change with snowmaking plans for LP. We had the overflow valve on Stein's rupture last night as we were starting up after the curtailment.  Really unfortunate since the temps were so good for snowmaking.  This is one of the issues with a curtailment as the pipes are most vulnerable as pressure builds up on a restart. We have a 1/2 curtailment again tonight.  Some snowmaking can continue but we have to ramp down from 5pm to 9pm.  The forecast has changed a bit and it looks like we will be out of snowmaking Monday and into Tuesday. So we will finish up Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge and then move to Organgrinder and Ripcord where the temps look best over the weekend. Possibly moving up to Looking Good and Elbow over at ME after we more off of the terrain park.


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## NYDB (Dec 20, 2019)

North was great this morning.  Was on the first North Ridge chair.  Exterminator, bravo, encore, hammerhead were great until late morning.  Lightly tracked Wind buff for a few and then rode great after it was chopped up.  

Groomers were rough until the sun on em.  Still firm and fast.  

Didnt make it over to South.  Legs done by lunch


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 20, 2019)

Wow skiing was so good again  today I did runs on upper jester snoball racers edge  and gate house laps  natural trails look like mad river grass and rocks  sleeper was chunky  hot shot whales-still  , saw locals  getting it while they can  going to Be warmer next few days  


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 20, 2019)

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## Griswold (Dec 20, 2019)

Who’s up this weekend and wants to meet up?


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## Greg (Dec 21, 2019)

Great day with my younger daughter today. Hit all the nattys at LP. Will explore Ellen tomorrow.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 21, 2019)

I heard that GMX was running on diesel today. Can somebody verify this? 


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## drjeff (Dec 21, 2019)

Greg said:


> View attachment 25847
> 
> Great day with my younger daughter today. Hit all the nattys at LP. Will explore Ellen tomorrow.


AWESOME!! 

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## Los (Dec 22, 2019)

Greg said:


> View attachment 25847
> 
> Great day with my younger daughter today. Hit all the nattys at LP. Will explore Ellen tomorrow.



Where is that? Spillsville?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 22, 2019)

Los said:


> Where is that? Spillsville?



Looks like CR run to me, but I could be wrong. 


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## Los (Dec 22, 2019)

If it’s castlerock, nice job to them because it’s hike only right now. (Nice job as in there’s no way I’m hiking over to castlerock especially when the cover is so thin).


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2019)

Los said:


> If it’s castlerock, nice job to them because it’s hike only right now. (Nice job as in there’s no way I’m hiking over to castlerock especially when the cover is so thin).



Agreed on the nice job if it is cr (cr or spills were my first thoughts on that photo).

Although I bet cover on the cr trails is better than most of the trails I’ve been skiing. I just don’t think my legs could handle the hike right now otherwise I’d be checking them out.


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## mrvpilgrim (Dec 22, 2019)

Bravo did offload on deisall shortyly after 10am
looking at web cam it seems to be back loading


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 22, 2019)

It’s back up and running, but it’s not running very fast. Not a surprise to see it be on mechanical hold. 


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## SkierDude (Dec 22, 2019)

Maintenance holds happen everywhere. When you have tens of thousands of tiny (or big) moving parts, something is bound to break. It’s not just at Sugarbush. Sugarloaf, for example, has had a lot of issues this winter, and I couldn’t tell you what other resorts but I’m sure it’s the same for them as well. Just be thankful Valley House exists


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 22, 2019)

SkierDude said:


> Maintenance holds happen everywhere. When you have tens of thousands of tiny (or big) moving parts, something is bound to break. It’s not just at Sugarbush. Sugarloaf, for example, has had a lot of issues this winter, and I couldn’t tell you what other resorts but I’m sure it’s the same for them as well. Just be thankful Valley House exists



Yes. I’m heading to Sugarloaf in a week or so and have heard about the issues with the SuperQuad. Some mountains are worse than others and every mountain has their lemon lift. For Sugarbush it’s probably Bravo or North Ridge and for Sugarloaf it’s the SuperQuad. Barker at Sunday River is pretty bad and Little Whiteface is constantly down on mechanical hold. A lot of it depends on routine maintenance, which certain mountains are better at than others. Not going to name names. 


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## djd66 (Dec 22, 2019)

As someone that skis Sugarbush regularly, the lifts have been very reliable over the past few years.  Hopefully I have not jinxed myself with this post,... I was evacuated from Heaven’s gate about 5 years ago,... not fun, but shit happens


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 22, 2019)

It’s funny you say that, I was just watching a video on YouTube of that rope evac. Not a fun time. It happened to Lookout at Stowe last year and then again to Challenger at Mount Snow. 


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2019)

djd66 said:


> As someone that skis Sugarbush regularly, the lifts have been very reliable over the past few years.  Hopefully I have not jinxed myself with this post,... I was evacuated from Heaven’s gate about 5 years ago,... not fun, but shit happens



Agreed. No idea what happened to bravo today but for the most part that thing is a work horse and other than wind holds I’ve rarely seen it down lately. 

I also remember that day HG was evac’d. I missed being on it for that by a mere 10 minutes or so. They had a lot of issues with HG that year and spent a lot of money in the off season doing major work on quite a few lifts after that.


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## Greg (Dec 22, 2019)

Los said:


> Where is that? Spillsville?



Paradise.


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## WinS (Dec 23, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I heard that GMX was running on diesel today. Can somebody verify this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



GMX was lit by lightning this summer and it took out all the tower switches and did damage to some components in the drive. Poma no longer manufacturer some of the component so we had to have a card manufactured in Finland of all places. In is in transit somewhere and hopefully will be the final fix to get GMX running on electric again. Fortunately, we have two diesel motors so GMX can run at speed on the diesel backup.  Not great to burn diesel and it costs a lot to do it, but it is running.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 23, 2019)

WinS said:


> GMX was lit by lightning this summer and it took out all the tower switches and did damage to some components in the drive. Poma no longer manufacturer some of the component so we had to have a card manufactured in Finland of all places. In is in transit somewhere and hopefully will be the final fix to get GMX running on electric again. Fortunately, we have two diesel motors so GMX can run at speed on the diesel backup.  Not great to burn diesel and it costs a lot to do it, but it is running.



Didn’t know about that. It’s a good thing that it was ordered with the 2 diesel backups, not all lifts can run full speed on backup power. I know Super Bravo and Gate House can’t. I remember during the 2017/18 season Ursa Express ran on diesel power for most of the season which destroyed capacity due to it only running at 700 ft/min. Even to this day, that lift has so many issues. It won’t be long before it’s scrap metal. Most recently the grips have been having force issues which is a potential safety threat. 


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## WinS (Dec 23, 2019)

djd66 said:


> As someone that skis Sugarbush regularly, the lifts have been very reliable over the past few years.  Hopefully I have not jinxed myself with this post,... I was evacuated from Heaven’s gate about 5 years ago,... not fun, but shit happens



Yes, they have. We keep detailed statistics and can see exactly how many hours lifts are scheduled to run and how many hours they are down for a mechanical or electrical reason.  All 16 lifts have run well over 99% of the scheduled thousands of hours that they are scheduled to run Lift are complicated and sophisticated pieces of equipment and things  happen. That is why we have experienced, professional and dedicated lift mechanics who work all summer on scheduled maintenance, get in pre-dawn to get all lifts going and then are here all day to respond to an problem. In our climate weather can affect lifts more than in other areas. . For instance, the other day we had a frozen contact on a Northridge Tower and it takes times to actual find which tower and which contact was affected. 

A lift evacuation  is rare but it can happen to any lift. All patrols are professionally trained to get every down safely and as quickly as possible.


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## Newpylong (Dec 23, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Didn’t know about that. It’s a good thing that it was ordered with the 2 diesel backups, not all lifts can run full speed on backup power. I know Super Bravo and Gate House can’t. I remember during the 2017/18 season Ursa Express ran on diesel power for most of the season which destroyed capacity due to it only running at 700 ft/min. Even to this day, that lift has so many issues. It won’t be long before it’s scrap metal. Most recently the grips have been having force issues which is a potential safety threat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Two operating forms of propulsion are needed to start the lift. Usually this is Electric (sized to operate at design speed) and a backup diesel APU (sized to only unload the lift slowly). However as Win said, detaches can be purchased with three motors - Electric, Diesel, and Diesel (APU). The primary diesel is usually sized to operate at 75-100% of design speed and can do for long periods of time. The second diesel is again only used to unload the lift.


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## Orca (Dec 23, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Even to this day, [North Ridge Express] has so many issues. It won’t be long before it’s scrap metal. Most recently the grips have been having force issues which is a potential safety threat.



You are asserting that NRX has been having malfunctioning grip problems (at least to some degree) on the detachable chairs. Source?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 23, 2019)

I meant Ursa at Stratton. It was one of only a few lifts built with Garaventa’s AK-680 grips which were poorly manufactured. According to my friend who’s a ski patroller at Stratton, there is almost always a grip force error. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 23, 2019)

I said “that lift” referring to Ursa which I made a comment about earlier in that post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## Orca (Dec 23, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I meant Ursa at Stratton. It was one of only a few lifts built with Garaventa’s AK-680 grips which were poorly manufactured. According to my friend who’s a ski patroller at Stratton, there is almost always a grip force error.



Thanks for the clarification. I reread your post and see that I had read it wrong.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 23, 2019)

Alterra has been doing great things for Stratton so far. Snow Bowl replacement, turning an underutilized and poorly maintained lift (Solstice) into a useful one for this season, and hopefully replacing Tamarack and South American with a High Speed Quad. A summit lodge is also planned. So far they have brought in far better maintenance that has rebuilt a lot of the controls on lifts. Looking forward to seeing some similar changes at Sugarbush. [emoji1360]


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## Newpylong (Dec 23, 2019)

What did they do specifically with Solstice? I've never seen it run. Sorry to hijack the Bush thread for a minute.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 23, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> What did they do specifically with Solstice? I've never seen it run. Sorry to hijack the Bush thread for a minute.



For many years it didn’t run very often and was essentially useless unless Sunrise went down. This past offseason, the lift’s controls were overhauled in order to prepare it for the season. In order to provide a new use, Shortcut  
Big Ben and Big Ben are now the mountain’s star terrain parks. This means that Solstice is now a park lift! It runs weekends so skiers can lap the park efficiently. I’m very pleased to see a simple, but very important upgrade made. 


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## smac75 (Dec 23, 2019)

Another sidetrack post: on Sunday we will be driving from Sugarbush to Lake Placid. Has anyone done that drive before? Wondering what to expect. Thx


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## Orca (Dec 23, 2019)

smac75 said:


> Another sidetrack post: on Sunday we will be driving from Sugarbush to Lake Placid. Has anyone done that drive before? Wondering what to expect. Thx



I've done it, but a quite a few years back. The drive takes a while (nominally 2.5 hours), and the roads are all secondary. Not quite half way, you cross the southern end of the Lake Champlain and start crossing Adirondack Park. I found the park a little unsettling. It has some pretty bleak and, by all appearances, dying towns. It is strangely non-commercial in an unhealthy, despairing way. Like time forgot the place. Lake Placid is nice and quite vibrant. Whiteface is an awesome mountain -- I think you'll be surprised at its size. Western type vertical. Please report back on your impressions after your trip. I'd be interested to hear.


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## Orca (Dec 23, 2019)

The Gate House quad could profitably be a six pack since lines there are a nightmare on most winter Saturdays. The existing quad could be repurposed elsewhere on the mountain.


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## MorningWoods (Dec 24, 2019)

Orca said:


> The Gate House quad could profitably be a six pack since lines there are a nightmare on most winter Saturdays. The existing quad could be repurposed elsewhere on the mountain.



I would rather wait in that line that deal with more skier traffic on that side by increasing uphill capacity. Those trails are already packed as it is. North Lynx makes its slightly better. But still gets busy on a Saturday. I don’t find the lines bad when there is more accessible terrain. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

Keep in mind that upgrading to a six pack doesn’t nescessarily mean an increase in capacity. Gate House’s design capacity is technically 3,000 p/h, but that is unrealistic since chairs have been removed. If it runs at its design speed of 1,000 ft/min, the capacity would be 2,800 p/h which is high for a detachable quad. Its spec sheet says 2,400 p/h @ 1,000 ft/min, but looking at its loading interval, it’s closer to 2,800. Since it is a beginner lift it usually runs at 830 ft/min but is sometimes sped up to around 900 on holiday weekends. This means capacity is closer to 2,400. 

A six pack could be built with a design capacity of 2,800 and have a larger loading interval, but due to that loading interval, it could run at its design speed and keep capacity at 2,800 without causing issues with beginners. It would most likely have a standard design speed of 1,000 ft/min. 

Gate House is more of a core lift than one might realize. It provides access to all of Lincoln’s only beginner terrain, it is the go-to lift for ski school programs, and families love it due to the lapability of it, said factors being the reason it often gets long lines. An often overlooked factor is back in 1995 when Otten built it, one of its main duties was to access Slide Brook. This is why it was built with a higher capacity than Bravo. 


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## slatham (Dec 24, 2019)

Orca said:


> The Gate House quad could profitably be a six pack since lines there are a nightmare on most winter Saturdays. The existing quad could be repurposed elsewhere on the mountain.



Unless GH has heavy usage to get to Slidebrook and North Linx (which I believe not), I don't think there's enough terrain to warrant a 6 pack.


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## cdskier (Dec 24, 2019)

slatham said:


> Unless GH has heavy usage to get to Slidebrook and North Linx (which I believe not), I don't think there's enough terrain to warrant a 6 pack.



Like Sb87 said, you can design a 6 pack that doesn't increase capacity, but then it seems like you're spending money for no real advantage (and there's enough times now that quad chairs go up empty because people have problems at the RFID gates because they refuse to read and/or follow instructions...we don't need 6-pack chairs going up empty). I agree that the existing terrain on GH really shouldn't have more people added to it. Those trails can already feel crowded and for beginners you really don't want to overwhelm them with even more people. I also think that the lift line at GH often looks worse than it is. The lines at one point this weekend when Super Bravo went on hold were well past the end of the corrals, yet I still made it through the line in only about 5 minutes.


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## 1dog (Dec 24, 2019)

Do wonder if the new owners will add any terrain to any of the complex - and, if they do, will it take years of governmental red tape?

When I started skiing in the '80s, the lure of the areas to newer skiers was adding terrain and lift capacity. Since growth is limited in the sport, maybe terrain would be something to draw more numbers.

Looks like Vail is attempting that at Sunapee  - what was the last major terrain expansion in the NE? Bretton Woods maybe? Have not been there in years - and look how long it took Loon to access the South Peak area.

If I could pick (for business purposes) a second blue off Heavens Gate, and another blue/black off Jester down fall line. And of course some larger full service mid or summit lodge. That would bring more customers who ski 8-12 days a year.

North - blue south route off Summit circling back to lower Rim or crossing Tumbler to NR chair, and of course a tree'd lift access above Inverness because its southern exposure.

Christmas Wish List -


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

I would love to see an Inverness expansion especially since the two groomed runs are often closed for racing. Maybe convert Inverness to a detachable and relocate the quad to serve terrain higher up on the mountain. 


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## Howitzer (Dec 24, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I would love to see an Inverness expansion especially since the two groomed runs are often closed for racing. Maybe convert Inverness to a detachable and relocate the quad to serve terrain higher up on the mountain.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The experts are really good at spending other people's money. Hard to justify a HSQ on Inverness when the lift only operates on weekends and holidays from late December-March. North has plenty of uphill capacity as built. One would have to think Sugarbush's near term cap ex plan does not include any lift replacements given what they have done the last few years. On the other hand, it's pretty cool that GMVS is installing a full length T Bar that will run at 700 ft/min even if it will not be open to the public. Merry Christmas to all and let it snow.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

My point being that if there were to be an Inverness expansion, a new detachable would probably be the anchor of it. In its current state, the quad is fine, although it should operate more frequently as it’s a pain to lap the terrain via Northway. I highly doubt that the T-Bar will operate at its design speed of 700 ft/min. It will most likely be slowed down for easier loading. I would really like to ride (and film) the Poma before it leaves, but it’s a challenge to load those pomas that come swinging around the bullwheel. The current T-Bar will become essentially useless with the new one being installed. 


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## cdskier (Dec 24, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> My point being that if there were to be an Inverness expansion, a new detachable would probably be the anchor of it.



I'm not so sure about that. An old plan was to add another lift that serves terrain on the upper part of Inverness (above where there is currently terrain). The higher elevation of that terrain would allow it to be open more often than anything new lower on Inverness. Any terrain expansion at ME would in all likelihood have to be dependent on natural snow anyway as I believe from what I remember that the current grandfathered permit for the ME snowmaking infrastructure would not allow any additional expansion to add more coverage. As a result, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut much in the way of new lower elevation terrain.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'm not so sure about that. An old plan was to add another lift that serves terrain on the upper part of Inverness (above where there is currently terrain). The higher elevation of that terrain would allow it to be open more often than anything new lower on Inverness. Any terrain expansion at ME would in all likelihood have to be dependent on natural snow anyway as I believe from what I remember that the current grandfathered permit for the ME snowmaking infrastructure would not allow any additional expansion to add more coverage. As a result, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut much in the way of new lower elevation terrain.



I originally mentioned relocating the quad to serve higher elevation terrain. Judging on how Mt. Ellen is treated though, I doubt anything will be happening over there for awhile. I’d love to see a base lodge remodel (not replacement) that is more open. Feels kind of dingy in there. 


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## cdskier (Dec 24, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I originally mentioned relocating the quad to serve higher elevation terrain. Judging on how Mt. Ellen is treated though, I doubt anything will be happening over there for awhile. I’d love to see a base lodge remodel (not replacement) that is more open. Feels kind of dingy in there.



Relocating the lift to go higher creates a potential issue as well...since the theoretical upper elevation Inverness terrain would be natural snow only, you now would have no lift serving the Inverness trail itself if you don't have enough snow to open the upper terrain. Sure you'd have the new GMVS T-Bar, and maybe that's enough simply for Inverness since it is closed to the public most of the time anyway. But I'd imagine that lift would be for GMVS use only, so then you'd lose your backup lift to GMX. At least now the current Inverness lift can get you to NRX if GMX isn't open for some reason.

Although I do agree that I wouldn't expect to see anything happening for a while. If there was ever terrain expansion though, I think ME has more possibilities than LP since LP is already fairly well built out (and some of the spots where you could add terrain at LP would probably get a lot of push-back from all the people that currently use the woods in those areas). And if you want to increase usage of ME, adding terrain might be the way to do it. An entire new pod of all natural terrain (maybe a mix of trails and glades) might be pretty enticing...


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

Sorry for so many comments, but their seems to be a bit of confusion. I suggested a new HSQ to replace the existing quad and to relocate that quad to start at the top of the HSQ and continue up the mountain to serve those natural trails. I do agree with you that there are potential issues with this plan though. 


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 24, 2019)

Enough ,no expansion  especially  Inverness  ever 


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## ducky (Dec 24, 2019)

If GMX is down, top of Sunny Q is only a 3 min hike to NRX. 

One of my fav lines is skier's left outside the B-net on Inverness, or down the Poma line on skier's right behind the shack. The new cut to Brambles may put a damper on the left side poach.

STREETSKIER, who is older than dirt and has been here for decades, is probably right re expansion.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 24, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Enough ,no expansion  especially  Inverness  ever
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I’m curious why you are against the expansion? Do you want it to happen but just not see it possible? 


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## Newpylong (Dec 25, 2019)

Why do you people want expansion? They already have arguably the best terrain in all categories in New England, along with a great lift system to serve it. I don't know how you could get bored but try somewhere else - any more acreage is not only hard to cover with snowmaking but logistically just doesnt make sense.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 25, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Why do you people want expansion? They already have arguably the best terrain in all categories in New England, along with a great lift system to serve it. Getting bored? Try somewhere else - too much acreage is not only hard to cover with snowmaking but logistically just doesnt make sense.



Not necessarily saying they need one, but it’s always a fun topic to discuss. At some point, could be another 30 or so years, but an expansion will occur, especially since there really hasn’t been anything since the 1970s. 


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## Orca (Dec 25, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Why do you people want expansion? They already have arguably the best terrain in all categories in New England, along with a great lift system to serve it. Getting bored? Try somewhere else - too much acreage is not only hard to cover with snowmaking but logistically just doesnt make sense.



Sidecountry/tree skiing expansion. Low budget: no trails, no snowmaking, no grooming. Just thinning. Think MRG off-piste terrain.


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## ducky (Dec 26, 2019)

This is a topo screenshot of Mt E showing the old planned ski lift above Invermess. If you introduce sidecountry, presumably off the top of Exterm and up the LT north, you have to be careful people don't hike the little ridge spur off the the left/west and drop in on the right side thinking they're inbounds. There is a similar ridge spur on the LT just before Castlerock that has also led people down the back side in error. How do I know this?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 26, 2019)

ducky said:


> View attachment 25853
> 
> This is a topo screenshot of Mt E showing the old planned ski lift above Invermess. If you introduce sidecountry, presumably off the top of Exterm and up the LT north, you have to be careful people don't hike the little ridge spur off the the left/west and drop in on the right side thinking they're inbounds. There is a similar ridge spur on the LT just before Castlerock that has also led people down the back side in error. How do I know this?



Wouldn’t this have caused issues on days with racing on Brambles? Seems pretty cool other than that though. 


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## ducky (Dec 26, 2019)

Spur marked.


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## ducky (Dec 26, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Wouldn’t this have caused issues on days with racing on Brambles? Seems pretty cool other than that though.



Was designed before GMVS was there.


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## ducky (Dec 26, 2019)

The two middle pins I dropped are way out, staying high and hard left from Extermintaor Woods, one might be at Hole in the Wall from the LT. I used this Topo Maps app often about 8-10 years ago and haven't really opened it since. The black dot is the Glen Ellen house lodge and not advisable to drop in from there as it is a hard, dense, bushwhacking slog below. The top pin was my attempt to find the old ski lift trail, but again too dense and pulling your way through thick undergrowth. If I recall, the lowest pins were marking a line between the Mother and BD back to Rim Run, or maybe the entry to which. Lines do change yearly with knockdowns and it seems different each year. As far as I know, the land is not GMNF and could be thinned. The LT is there now and runs all the way to and past MRG, so why make it official? Just be subtle (less is more re cutting, ..like a folding hand saw only) and be respectful to the forest, environment, and land owners if you do. I, personally, have never cut but have seen trimmed lines.

Be nice if Google/Apple Maps offered a "winter view" showing snow cover so you could find what was brush and what was more open.


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## cdskier (Dec 26, 2019)

Just finished going through my photos from the past couple weeks...here are a few of my favorites.

Last Saturday morning (12/21) around 8:30 on Jester:



Exterminator on opening day at ME:


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## kingslug (Dec 26, 2019)

Might be there this week..hoping for..something.


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## teleo (Dec 26, 2019)

When GMVS builds the t-bar, can sugarbush get the old poma, put it above inverness and just thin the trees for some more natural woods?  Would be super cheap and fit with the sugarbush sidecountry vibe.  Win?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 26, 2019)

teleo said:


> When GMVS builds the t-bar, can sugarbush get the old poma, put it above inverness and just thin the trees for some more natural woods?  Would be super cheap and fit with the sugarbush sidecountry vibe.  Win?



I’d love to see something similar to that, but the old Poma is in very rough shape. It derived multiple times last year. It’s already been relocated, and I think it’s just too far past the end of its service life. GMVS May remove the current T-Bar as it will become redundant. I could see that being used as the side country lift. 


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## Newpylong (Dec 26, 2019)

Even if the club/school decided to sell, you're not going to see a 1400/300' back country lift.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 27, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

1 southern exposure terrain not ideal 
2 to close to mrg 
3 in the way of gmvs
4 north is only open 90 days 
5 money spent elsewhere like the lodge would be better 
Reality is slide brook would-be where expansion should happen but we know why it won’t happen  they gave the top of Lincoln peak and. Slide  brook for slidebrook express lift  also the best skiing on that exposure is there already brambles woods  up above.  Is Fine for exploration with your buddy’s 



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## AbominableSnowman (Dec 27, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> 1 southern exposure terrain not ideal
> 2 to close to mrg
> 3 in the way of gmvs
> 4 north is only open 90 days
> ...




Plus, adding yet another "used" lift to the equation - when they are already ordering parts from where, Wakanda?, to keep their primary base lifts such as GMX running - seems like a very questionable business move.  

While it is a credit to the outgoing management that they did make investments in Sugarbush over the years (e.g. the Valley House Quad), it does seem as though an infusion of capital is necessary in order to bring the existing infrastructure (including GMX, NRX and Heaven's Gate lifts) fully back up to the level of "sustainable and reliable".

After that is done would likely be the more appropriate and responsible time to start investing in any possible expansion alternatives....

P.S. Those are beautiful photos above, cdskier - nicely done!  If you are not already a professional photographer, you may have discovered a second career....


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> 1 southern exposure terrain not ideal
> 2 to close to mrg
> 3 in the way of gmvs
> 4 north is only open 90 days
> ...



A Slide Brook Basin expansion is very unlikely. Alterra would have to invest a ton of money into trails and lifts that would connect both peaks. Although it would be cool, things like that never happen. Look how the Killington/Pico interconnect turned out. They got rid of a large trail pod for a "land swap" and never completed the interconnect. All that remains today is a dirt road between mountains. Unless they have superpowers like Otten had in 1995 completing 6 lift related projects not to mention snowmaking in one year, it's impossible to remove Slide Brook, connect the mountains with trails, and install lifts to connect.


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## Hawk (Dec 27, 2019)

A slidebrook expansions are not very unlikely, they can NEVER be done by Altura or anybody else for that matter.  Les Otten gave away any rights or any expansion possibility in that whole area between North and Lincoln peak areas so that they could put in your beloved lift.  Actually, that was a blessing for people like me and my friends who prefer no lifts or listed trails out there.  It keeps the population low.

As for North, I think that the area above inverness is the only place that could possibly make it through act 250 but that would take quite some time and lots of money.  They already have an approved master plan for the new building at the bottom of lincoln peak and Win has mentioned the possibility of another lodge at the top of gate house, snow making expansions and possibly work to the Glen house.  Alterra has not even said a word about what they will do so I have to look at the hints that Win has mentioned.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> A slidebrook expansions are not very unlikely, they can NEVER be done by Altura or anybody else for that matter.  Les Otten gave away any rights or any expansion possibility in that whole area between North and Lincoln peak areas so that they could put in your beloved lift.  Actually, that was a blessing for people like me and my friends who prefer no lifts or listed trails out there.  It keeps the population low.
> 
> As for North, I think that the area above inverness is the only place that could possibly make it through act 250 but that would take quite some time and lots of money.  They already have an approved master plan for the new building at the bottom of lincoln peak and Win has mentioned the possibility of another lodge at the top of gate house, snow making expansions and possibly work to the Glen house.  Alterra has not even said a word about what they will do so I have to look at the hints that Win has mentioned.



It's hard for any operator of Sugarbush to justify spending all that money on connecting both peaks with trails. Ever since Glen Ellen was acquired, there were ambitions of a connector lift. In 1995, Otten purchased the mountains and had a vision for them that included SLide Brook. He wasn't going to connect the peaks with trails, so he settled on Slide Brook. Like it or not, Slide Brook (the lift) was an important component of Otten's vision. Every owner of Sugarbush has had a vision and this was his. I really liked his vision of Sugarbush unlike others, but that's just personal preference. I don't want to speak for Win, but I think he had the vision of developing a Village at Lincoln and creating a more unique kind of vibe.


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## Hawk (Dec 27, 2019)

No you are wrong.  He wanted to connect the two with lifts and trails but due to push back from the national forest service and local outcry he settled on the lift.  It was never his original intent, just an afterthought.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

AbominableSnowman said:


> P.S. Those are beautiful photos above, cdskier - nicely done!  If you are not already a professional photographer, you may have discovered a second career....



Thanks! Just a hobby that I've started to have a lot of fun with the past few years (although I'd love to one day figure out how to make some side money off it lol).


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> No you are wrong.  He wanted to connect the two with lifts and trails but due to push back from the national forest service and local outcry he settled on the lift.  It was never his original intent, just an afterthought.


Protecting Bear habitat too if I recall

Otten also had designs on "modernizing" Castle Rock with a higher capacity lift and snowmaking.  Probably would've turned into Vermont's version of OZ if he had his way.

IMO Sugarbush is better off today for people pushing back on his plans.  He was a McSkiarea designer

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Protecting Bear habitat too if I recall
> 
> Otten also had designs on "modernizing" Castle Rock with a higher capacity lift and snowmaking.  Probably would've turned into Vermont's version of OZ if he had his way.
> 
> ...



The Castlerock plan was the one thing that he wanted to do that I do not agree with. Other than that though, I think he had some pretty cool plans for Sugarbush, if only ASC hadn’t ended up failing. 


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## machski (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Protecting Bear habitat too if I recall
> 
> Otten also had designs on "modernizing" Castle Rock with a higher capacity lift and snowmaking.  Probably would've turned into Vermont's version of OZ if he had his way.
> 
> ...


Yes on the CR modernization, part of which Otten wanted because his original connector lift proposal was from top of CR to Ellen (shortest distance).  Of course, that was shot down not just due to CR being hosed but the visual ruined from the valley.  The visual beauty preservation is also why Slidebrook is a chair and not a Gondola today and why it is so low to the ridge lines at times (so as to minimize it's profile when view from the valley).

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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Protecting Bear habitat too if I recall
> 
> Otten also had designs on "modernizing" Castle Rock with a higher capacity lift and snowmaking.  Probably would've turned into Vermont's version of OZ if he had his way.
> 
> IMO Sugarbush is better off today for people pushing back on his plans.  He was a McSkiarea designer



Count me as another person that is quite happy that much of Otten's plans never happened. His "vision" was to turn it into a mega resort so he could make a lot of money. He didn't care about respecting the community. He didn't care about the things that made SB unique and special (like CR being an all natural area with limited capacity). So I'm ultimately quite happy ASC failed.

I also don't understand why we're crediting Otten with the "vision" for connecting North and South in the first place. That was part of the plan over 10 years before Otten bought SB. He may have been the one that finally managed to do it with the installation of the SB chair, which as Hawk pointed out was ultimately a blessing since it prevented any further development in that area.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The Castlerock plan was the one thing that he wanted to do that I do not agree with. Other than that though, I think he had some pretty cool plans for Sugarbush, if only ASC hadn’t ended up failing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad they failed to be honest.  

I suppose if lots of slopeside real estate development and wide trails with tons of grooming is your thing, then I could see their appeal.  

To me they were just a McSkiarea company.  



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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Count me as another person that is quite happy that much of Otten's plans never happened. His "vision" was to turn it into a mega resort so he could make a lot of money. He didn't care about respecting the community. He didn't care about the things that made SB unique and special (like CR being an all natural area with limited capacity). So I'm ultimately quite happy ASC failed.
> 
> I also don't understand why we're crediting Otten with the "vision" for connecting North and South in the first place. That was part of the plan over 10 years before Otten bought SB. He may have been the one that finally managed to do it with the installation of the SB chair, which as Hawk pointed out was ultimately a blessing since it prevented any further development in that area.



When somebody owns a ski resort, they naturally have a vision for it. Otten's vision was to center everything around Slide Brook. This explains the reconfiguration of Mount Ellen and the reason why the Gate House area was completely redeveloped. I can definitely see why you are happier with current ownership but here's a quick explanation of why I liked ASC's ownership better:

It was predictable. Some hate it and some love it, but I would rather ski at a mountain where I know that reliable mountain operations are guaranteed. He treated Sugarbush as one large mountain instead of two separate mountains similar to how it is now by configuring everything around Slide Brook. The idea was that a day-tripper would get to experience what both mountains had to offer by just a short 10-minute lift ride. Nowadays, most people park at Lincoln and only ski there while Ellen is left in the dust. When Slide Brook does run, Ellen almost seems like a "reliever" mountain. Since Sugarbush is such an amazing and more importantly, large mountain, it made sense to have it be a bit more commercial than a smaller mountain. To be clear there are certain things I prefer about the current ownership such as the attention to detail with new facilities, the unique events happening around the mountain, and the connection to local MRV culture, but I do think some aspects of the mountain have suffered under this new vision. Again, this is just my opinion. Feel free to have yours.


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## Orca (Dec 27, 2019)

I'll make the following assertion: Sugarbush is not absolutely and immaculately perfect in its current state. The logical consequence of that assertion is that there exist things that could be done to improve it. However, it is my observation that approximately 80% of posters on this forum poo poo any and all suggestions for any type of change or improvement. It is bizarre.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

It's not just Sugarbush. I'm generally against "improvements" at all ski areas outside of upgrading lifts or cutting glades.  90% of new trails cut in the Northeast in the past 30 years have been a massive disappointment.  Too wide, too void of character and always with snowmaking.  Why not cut a new Rumble or Goat type trail?  That's what I'd like to see more of.  A return to old school, classic New England trail design.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> It's not just Sugarbush. I'm generally against "improvements" at all ski areas outside of upgrading lifts or cutting glades.  90% of new trails cut in the Northeast in the past 30 years have been a massive disappointment.  Too wide, too void of character and always with snowmaking.  Why not cut a new Rumble or Goat type trail?  That's what I'd like to see more of.  A return to old school, classic New England trail design.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



While hardcore skiers might consider the new trails "boring", it's just the reality. Unless there is a dedicated sidecountry expansion, a ski resort is not going to just throw in some extreme terrain that only 5% of their visitors actually ski. They would rather cut something that appeals to a more broad audience. On the positive side of things though, there has been an increase in new sidecountry areas at resorts throughout the country. Take Bretton Woods as an example: In 2012 they cut some nice glades and put in a simple T-Bar to create a new expansion. Something like this only runs a resort about $1,000,000 and is pretty easy to justify. Trails like Rumble and Goat, however, were cut years ago when the technology used today just didn't exist. These days it is just not worth it to do a trail expansion like that. Also, don't be against improvements as at least they are something new for the mountain. Some places go years without any improvements kind of like Stowe in recent years...


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## ducky (Dec 27, 2019)

Another day much better than expected. Bit wet early but soft and nice turning. Looks like some light snow coming Monday.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> It's not just Sugarbush. I'm generally against "improvements" at all ski areas outside of upgrading lifts or cutting glades.  90% of new trails cut in the Northeast in the past 30 years have been a massive disappointment.  Too wide, too void of character and always with snowmaking.  Why not cut a new Rumble or Goat type trail?  That's what I'd like to see more of.  A return to old school, classic New England trail design.



I like the way you think! I'm ok with expansion in the right place if it is done "right" with classic old school New England style trails. I agree that there's no reason for new wide boring groomer runs. We have enough of those... Even if you want to add mellower terrain, it can still be done without resorting to wide trails. To me, Walt's at ME is a great example of a green trail with a lot of character. Or pretty much most of the greens and blues at MRG would be great examples of lower level trails that are fun and have a lot of character as well.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> While hardcore skiers might consider the new trails "boring", it's just the reality. Unless there is a dedicated sidecountry expansion, a ski resort is not going to just throw in some extreme terrain that only 5% of their visitors actually ski. They would rather cut something that appeals to a more broad audience.



I don't think you understand the Sugarbush clientele if you think only 5% of their visitors would ski new more challenging "classic" terrain.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

I'll take the Stowe I moved to in 1995 over what exists there today any day of the week.  Wish I was around for Liftline and National during their heyday before they got neutered.  

You want McSkiing? Go to Okemo or Stratton.  Leave the places like Sugarbush and Smuggs that retain a certain amount of old school character alone.  Thanks

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't think you understand the Sugarbush clientele if you think only 5% of their visitors would ski new more challenging "classic" terrain.



I said “a ski resort” referring to your average ski resort. Even Sugarbush, if you look at the skier data, only about 5% ski Rumble on an average day. Maybe even less... 


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I said “a ski resort” referring to your average ski resort. Even Sugarbush, if you look at the skier data, only about 5% ski Rumble on an average day. Maybe even less...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What "data" is being collected on people skiing Rumble.  They got a secret RFID gate at the top of it? 

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> What "data" is being collected on people skiing Rumble.  They got a secret RFID gate at the top of it?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



If there was data, it would back up the information I said. 


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## mbedle (Dec 27, 2019)

Look at a couple of resort master plans and most state that the expert skier market in North America is around 5%.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Look at a couple of resort master plans and most state that the expert skier market in North America is around 5%.


That distribution varies widely depending on type of terrain available.  A place like Sugarbush might have 20% of their market be expert skiers vs a place like Okemo having 2%.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> That distribution varies widely depending on type of terrain available.  A place like Sugarbush might have 20% of their market be expert skiers vs a place like Okemo having 2%.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Fair enough, but as the climate warms, it’s increasingly harder to justify cutting a natural snow trail that won’t always be open. It just doesn’t appeal to the average customer either. Look at Sugarbush, many of the people are just families lapping Gate House all day long. 


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## ducky (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> That distribution varies widely depending on type of terrain available.  A place like Sugarbush might have 20% of their market be expert skiers vs a place like Okemo having 2%.



And much higher midweek.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Fair enough, but as the climate warms, it’s increasingly harder to justify cutting a natural snow trail that won’t always be open. It just doesn’t appeal to the average customer either. Look at Sugarbush, many of the people are just families lapping Gate House all day long.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't see a point being reached where a trail like Rumble doesn't open at least 30 days a season.  If it does get to that point, the people who want to ski that type of terrain aren't going to say, "screw it. widen it and put in snowmaking and grooming on it."

Just look at Tramline at Cannon.  It probably opens less than 30 days a season on average.  I don't think you'll find many people suggesting they should line it with dynamite, flatten it and put in snowmaking.  They've already got Profile or Avalanche to ski that type of experience.  You simply just have to be patient and opportunistic to experience it for what it is. 

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 27, 2019)

I never said that those trails would change, but it would not be economically viable to cut new ones. 


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 27, 2019)

I'm envisioning lifts, trail pods and connector trails added into the spaces between LP, ME and MRG and it sort of, abstractly, reminds me of another place LBO once owned...


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

But it would be to replace Inverness with a HSQ and move that chair onto a new terrain pod above it?  That's like a $15M project.  

You could literaly put another trail like Rumble between it and Middle Earth for probably a couple hundred grand.  That's something different and unique that other areas aren't doing and most certainly would generate some buzz.  

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## Hawk (Dec 27, 2019)

I will say this.  Yes he is right in a general scene.  There are more beginner-intermediate skiers at Sugarbush then there are experts.  These people may want to see more trails and marked areas than there are now.  Problem is the areas that they put the new trails will most likely be were we already ski.  I don't care If I am a minority, I don't want to see good areas get wiped out because we have to cater to people.  Call me selfish.


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## Smellytele (Dec 27, 2019)

When I think of old school New England trails color doesn’t come into it. Cut a polecat ( green) cut an upper Cannon or Ravine (blue) or cut a chin clip (black). Twists and turns is what defines it. Don’t cut a profile or an Okemo/newer Sunday river trail - wide straight down the hill trail.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I will say this.  Yes he is right in a general scene.  There are more beginner-intermediate skiers at Sugarbush then there are experts.  These people may want to see more trails and marked areas than there are now.  Problem is the areas that they put the new trails will most likely be were we already ski.  I don't care If I am a minority, I don't want to see good areas get wiped out because we have to cater to people.  Call me selfish.



I don't think you're as much of a minority as you think you are. Even with the kids there are a significant number of them that are skiing areas like CR and even unmarked woods as part of the various Blazer programs. Yes, there are more beginner-intermediate skiers than experts...but that's going to be the case almost anywhere. The distribution between the two at Sugarbush is not nearly as wide of a gap as at other areas though. I think that's the point some people are trying to make (and my argument at least).

Over 50% of terrain (even including the marked glades) already serves the beginner-intermediate market. If you include only actual trails and exclude marked glades, that number rises to nearly 70%. That's plenty of terrain for that segment of users even if they're a bit of a  majority. There's no need to cater more to that market. There are plenty of other mountains that already do that. Sugarbush also already has a reputation as a more "hardcore" mountain than some other resorts. They should continue to stick to that market because it is what sets them apart from other mountains and makes them attractive to many of the people that call SB home. And I think in general you're going to actually see the demand for what SB offers continue to increase. Just look at how much more popular the woods are now compared to years ago. I don't think that is some fad that is going to die off any time soon.

Of course this is largely all irrelevant anyway. There's not going to be any expansions any point soon period. Lots of other priorities that would have to be addressed first.


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## Boxtop Willie (Dec 27, 2019)

For a day that had the potential to be a complete washout, it was pretty good. Wind was roaring, lots on windhold, but no crowds and silky soft snow. Big, carved turns down Snowball; Spring Fling fantastic. A little moisture in the morning, quick immature snow event around 1 (luckily in having lunch) and then a few peeks of sun. I'm glad I went out. Tomorrow looks to be great. And then Monday?????


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## Orca (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> 90% of new trails cut in the Northeast in the past 30 years have been a massive disappointment.  Too wide, too void of character and always with snowmaking.  Why not cut a new Rumble or Goat type trail?  That's what I'd like to see more of.  A return to old school, classic New England trail design.



Amen, brother.

I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Orca said:


> Amen, brother.
> 
> I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.



You said what I wanted to say in far fewer words and much more effectively!


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## ducky (Dec 27, 2019)

Orca said:


> Amen, brother.
> 
> I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.



Totally agree and well said ..however the counterpoint is that this is called Mad River Glen and it is just 3 miles away and they struggle to break even each year. It's a magical place with incredible and natural winding terrain. The even have snowmaking on major trails, and grooming on some, and have a blue/green area served by the Double, even a race hill. Some of the best tree skiing in Vermont.


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## mikec142 (Dec 27, 2019)

Skied 24-26 at Lincoln Peak.  Pretty fun skiing overall, but SB could use a good storm.  Seems like the warmth on the 23rd hurt.  Twist and Moonshine took some wax off my skis as did Paradise.  Organgrinder had the guns on it most of the time and it was a ton of fun, but I came out looking like the abominable snowman.  

I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it.  I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike.  To be frank, that ain't so.  Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two.  We were all pretty wrecked afterwards.  The top of Castlerock Run was really fun, but from the junction of Lower Castlerock Run/Cotillion on down it was pretty pretty bad, especially the run out back to the base.  Very happy we checked this experience off the list, but unless it's a pow day and the CR lift isn't running, I'm going to find other things to ski and wait until the lift is running.  Snowball/Spring Fling, Jester were in solid shape.  Sleeper was solid too.  Especially after the sun hit it a bit.

Plan was to ski today as well and hop in the car to head home right from the mountain, but the weather and the family overruled me and we had a leisurely morning in Burlington and headed back to NJ.  

Weather looks pretty good, so I'm planning to head back up next weekend.

Last season, I overbought quad packs and ended up struggling to use them all.  So this season I bought a bit less.  But between me and my kids, we've already used the vast majority of the days.  Gonna have to be strategic about my plans to keep the rest of the season's ticket costs at a reasonable level.  Unless any of you guys want to sell a few days...


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> When I think of old school New England trails color doesn’t come into it. Cut a polecat ( green) cut an upper Cannon or Ravine (blue) or cut a chin clip (black). Twists and turns is what defines it. Don’t cut a profile or an Okemo/newer Sunday river trail - wide straight down the hill trail.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I referenced Rumble and Goat, but you are right in that "classic" New England trails don't have to be for experts only.

Take Wildcat. I'm content if Wildcat never changes, but Ive often said I'd be open to two things.  Some inbounds upper mountain glades and another Polecat type trail going out past Upper Wildcat that connects with Wild Kitten down below.  How cool would that be? 



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## WWF-VT (Dec 27, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> Skied 24-26 at Lincoln Peak.  Pretty fun skiing overall, but SB could use a good storm.  Seems like the warmth on the 23rd hurt.  Twist and Moonshine took some wax off my skis as did Paradise.  Organgrinder had the guns on it most of the time and it was a ton of fun, but I came out looking like the abominable snowman.
> 
> I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it.  I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike.  To be frank, that ain't so.  Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two.  We were all pretty wrecked afterwards.  The top of Castlerock Run was really fun, but from the junction of Lower Castlerock Run/Cotillion on down it was pretty pretty bad, especially the run out back to the base.  Very happy we checked this experience off the list, but unless it's a pow day and the CR lift isn't running, I'm going to find other things to ski and wait until the lift is running.



Twist, Moonshine and Paradise should have been enough to tell you that the trek to Castlerock wasn't worth the effort.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I've never done the hike from Paradise to Castlerock so my two teenagers and I decided to try it.  I vaguely recall one of you fine folk here saying it was a 15-20 minute hike.  To be frank, that ain't so.  Took us about 35 minutes with a picture stop or two.



Many people say it is around 15 minutes or so. Probably takes me about 20-25 (typically with a photo stop at The Church). And I consider myself slow as people are always passing me (one of the big reasons I hate doing it on a weekend and prefer to do it midweek when no one is around so I'm not in anyone's way on the LT). It definitely is a workout though. I still think it can be worth it when conditions are right.


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## raisingarizona (Dec 27, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't see a point being reached where a trail like Rumble doesn't open at least 30 days a season.  If it does get to that point, the people who want to ski that type of terrain aren't going to say, "screw it. widen it and put in snowmaking and grooming on it."
> 
> Just look at Tramline at Cannon.  It probably opens less than 30 days a season on average.  I don't think you'll find many people suggesting they should line it with dynamite, flatten it and put in snowmaking.  They've already got Profile or Avalanche to ski that type of experience.  You simply just have to be patient and opportunistic to experience it for what it is.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



The point that you completely miss here though is at what point does the costs to maintain natural trails and in the castle rock example, a whole pod and lift outweigh its actual value. If you are spending x amount of dollars every year to get an average of 30 days a season is it worth it?


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## Orca (Dec 27, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> The point that you completely miss here though is at what point does the costs to maintain natural trails and in the castle rock example, a whole pod and lift outweigh its actual value. If you are spending x amount of dollars every year to get an average of 30 days a season is it worth it?



I don't think your "outweigh its actual value" can be easily figured. It is very hard to put a revenue valuation on a portion of a ski area. I don't think it can be readily or reliably computed. For instance, how much is Sugarbush diminished when North Lynx isn't running, and specifically how much revenue is lost on a given day by it not running? Maybe almost nothing is lost, so why ever run it at all? I could argue that the incremental value of any single trail is, in fact, zero. It is the whole offering that seems to matter.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 27, 2019)

Orca said:


> I don't think your "outweigh its actual value" can be easily figured. It is very hard to put a revenue valuation on a portion of a ski area. I don't think it can be readily or reliably computed.


I would think that the RFID scanners will help them to quantify that a bit.  If you have a significant chunk of skiers at one lift--particularly if those skiers aren't on the mountain when that lift isn't running--then you can probably say that a particular pod is worth x amount of revenue.  On the other hand, if skier traffic is dispersed among terrain, then maybe you don't push to open a particular pod if those people are on the mountain already anyway.  You could probably try to correlate skier traffic to your grooming plan later in the season too, if you see a jump in traffic when you groom a particular trail then maybe you make it more regular.

Now that I think about it, it seems that long range RFID scanners already exist. I imagine they are more expensive than short range ones, but I wonder if we will see ski areas install them in certain areas to get an even closer look at traffic now that the cards are in use already.


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## cdskier (Dec 27, 2019)

Keelhauled said:


> I would think that the RFID scanners will help them to quantify that a bit.  If you have a significant chunk of skiers at one lift--particularly if those skiers aren't on the mountain when that lift isn't running--then you can probably say that a particular pod is worth x amount of revenue.  On the other hand, if skier traffic is dispersed among terrain, then maybe you don't push to open a particular pod if those people are on the mountain already anyway.  You could probably try to correlate skier traffic to your grooming plan later in the season too, if you see a jump in traffic when you groom a particular trail then maybe you make it more regular.
> 
> Now that I think about it, it seems that long range RFID scanners already exist. I imagine they are more expensive than short range ones, but I wonder if we will see ski areas install them in certain areas to get an even closer look at traffic now that the cards are in use already.



RFID will give them more data once fully deployed, sure. But at the same time look at a lift like CR that is intentionally a low capacity lift. When that lift is open and conditions are good, demand often far outweighs supply. RFID would just tell you that you have 1000 pph using it or whatever the capacity is. It wouldn't tell you that you had another 1000 pph that went elsewhere because they didn't feel like standing in line at CR, etc. I'm a good example of that. I love CR, but hate lines. I'd rather go ski the natural runs on HG or Bravo or VH or even over at ME before I stand too much in line at CR. I don't ski CR anywhere near as much as I'd like to simply because I'd rather actually ski than wait in line.


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## Greg (Dec 28, 2019)

Orca said:


> Amen, brother.
> 
> I don't buy that the fraction of expert skiers is 5%. Castlerock always has a long line when it is open. Heck, people hike there from LP when the lift isn't running. I see tons of folks in the woods, including plenty of kids. Try to catch a bus from the Slidebrook outlet and you may have to wait a few busses because they are filling up. There is demand out there for this type of skiing, and the market is under-served. Sugarbush is well positioned to attract more of that cohort. And those people, like me, are pretty hard core and reliable sources of revenue.



Agreed. And you don't have to be an "expert" to ski Castlerock or a lot of the more advanced natural terrain at SB. My 13 year old daughter is a good example. She's a solid skier who I would rate a higher intermediate but loves technical, natural trails and tree skiing (admittedly might be a result of some dad brainwashing over the years, but....)

With that said, I don't see any mountain adding CR type skiing, as much as I would love to see that. I also don't think SB *needs* more of it anyway. I just hope they don't ever convert any existing classic trails to boring groomers covered in snowmaking. I also applaud SB's willingness to open with even thin cover. Not sure if it was a play to get the holiday week trail count up, but when I was there last weekend, I appreciated having the option to ski the nattys despite beating up a brand new pair of skis! :lol:


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2019)

my wife and I have done castlerock a few time this week.  My average time is about 20 minutes but I do not stop and I am in pretty good shape.  As for being worth it, it totally was every time.  I would add that the majority of people go down castelrock run so it gets beat up.  Middle Earth was way better.  I think the wind continuously blew in a way that brought snow out of the woods so there seemed to be more over there.

In general, I felt that with all the cold we had over the last two weeks, there should have been more snow blown.  Not sure what happened there but the expansion of trails last week and the week before was not that progressive.  Just my observation.


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## Orca (Dec 28, 2019)

Hawk said:


> In general, I felt that with all the cold we had over the last two weeks, there should have been more snow blown.  Not sure what happened there but the expansion of trails last week and the week before was not that progressive.  Just my observation.



It is an unfortunate irony that the deep cold temperatures that are best for blowing snow -- by best I mean most efficient production of quantity with the driest quality -- are accompanied by power restrictions that limit snowmaking operations. It is a situation that plain old sucks.


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## WinS (Dec 28, 2019)

Orca said:


> It is an unfortunate irony that the deep cold temperatures that are best for blowing snow -- by best I mean most efficient production of quantity with the driest quality -- are accompanied by power restrictions that limit snowmaking operations. It is a situation that plain old sucks.



Yes, that is a problem.  Also we you power down and start up you have the greatest risk of a rupture in a pipe and/or a valve.  We id lose at least 18 hours of good production time because of the curtailment and a rupture which is very frustrating.  Would have liked to have been further along on either Ripcord or the North Lynx area before it warmed up again.  You can see that we are set-up to go in both areas once the temperatures come down.


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## skimagic (Dec 28, 2019)

WinS said:


> Yes, that is a problem.  Also we you power down and start up you have the greatest risk of a rupture in a pipe and/or a valve.  We id lose at least 18 hours of good production time because of the curtailment...



Why are there power restrictions? Is this a recent development due to the closure of the nuclear power plant in Vernon Vermont, or an ongoing problem for years?


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## HowieT2 (Dec 28, 2019)

skimagic said:


> Why are there power restrictions? Is this a recent development due to the closure of the nuclear power plant in Vernon Vermont, or an ongoing problem for years?



my recollection is they have had these power curtailments for as long as I can remember.

a bit firm out there today, except off gatehouse.  Sleeper was like spring conditions.  Forecast looking good.


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## skiur (Dec 29, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> my recollection is they have had these power curtailments for as long as I can remember.
> 
> a bit firm out there today, except off gatehouse.  Sleeper was like spring conditions.  Forecast looking good.



I've often wondered about the power curtailments as well.  Killington does not have these so why does sugarbush have them only an hour up the road?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

Just saw the 2-20” prediction for snow. Does that mean we could possibly seeing Slide Brook running in about a week or so? 


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## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2019)

2-20? Where did you get this accurate finely narrowed down forecast?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> 2-20? Where did you get this accurate finely narrowed down forecast?



The snow report.


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2019)

skiur said:


> I've often wondered about the power curtailments as well.  Killington does not have these so why does sugarbush have them only an hour up the road?



An hour away is a big difference. Wasn't Killington previously covered by CVPS before the merger with GMP? So the grids/infrastructure covering the MRV vs K could be vastly different. Even if they had both been from the same company, the grids could still be significantly more robust in the K area since it is a much more populated area than the MRV. I've always wondered though if other ski areas had curtailments as well or whether it was just something to do with a lack of capacity specifically within the MRV.

In general though I will say I have heard in other areas/industries of power companies requesting reduced power consumption from some of their larger commercial customers during periods of peak demand.


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## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The snow report.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I guess this could be evidence for why ski report verbiage is useless...


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> I guess this could be evidence for why ski report verbiage is useless...



To be fair, it was an intentional play at saying "we really have no idea what we're getting so we're giving a big range to cover everything".


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## WinS (Dec 29, 2019)

skiur said:


> I've often wondered about the power curtailments as well.  Killington does not have these so why does sugarbush have them only an hour up the road?



They do now as part of GMP.


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## WinS (Dec 29, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> 2-20? Where did you get this accurate finely narrowed down forecast?



Tongue in Cheek


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## pinnoke (Dec 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> To be fair, it was an intentional play at saying "we really have no idea what we're getting so we're giving a big range to cover everything".



+1


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## bigbob (Dec 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> An hour away is a big difference. Wasn't Killington previously covered by CVPS before the merger with GMP? So the grids/infrastructure covering the MRV vs K could be vastly different. Even if they had both been from the same company, the grids could still be significantly more robust in the K area since it is a much more populated area than the MRV. I've always wondered though if other ski areas had curtailments as well or whether it was just something to do with a lack of capacity specifically within the MRV.
> 
> In general though I will say I have heard in other areas/industries of power companies requesting reduced power consumption from some of their larger commercial customers during periods of peak demand.




Killington is tied into the Cow Power grid, plenty of juice


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## WinS (Dec 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> An hour away is a big difference. Wasn't Killington previously covered by CVPS before the merger with GMP? So the grids/infrastructure covering the MRV vs K could be vastly different. Even if they had both been from the same company, the grids could still be significantly more robust in the K area since it is a much more populated area than the MRV. I've always wondered though if other ski areas had curtailments as well or whether it was just something to do with a lack of capacity specifically within the MRV.
> 
> In general though I will say I have heard in other areas/industries of power companies requesting reduced power consumption from some of their larger commercial customers during periods of peak demand.



You are correct. This is the rate agreement that industrial clients have with GMP and has been this way as long as we have owned Sugarbush.


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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just saw the 2-20” prediction for snow. Does that mean we could possibly seeing Slide Brook running in about a week or so?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope.  No slidebrook for you.  HA HA.  You can take the bus.  LOL


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Nope.  No slidebrook for you.  HA HA.  You can take the bus.  LOL



Hahahahah, very funny. Wasn’t exactly the answer I was looking for... 


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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2019)

Honestly, Win has always said that they need enough snow to run equipment out to the far reaches of slidebrook in case of evac.  there is zero snow on the ground.  even if it snowed 20"  it would have  be packed in and the water bars filled.  So I doubt that would happen any time soon.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

Just curious, how difficult would it be to spend $25,000-$50,000 in providing better access to the Slide Brook liftline? This would ensure a reliable connection between both mountains most days of the days that Mt. Ellen is open. Up until somewhere 2004, evacuation of Slide Brook was disregarded. $50,000 to make a lift a heck of a lot more reliable would be worth it in the long run. I understand that the lift operations department makes choices about when to run lifts, but if Alterra were to invest in this and provide yearly evacuation trainings, the lift could run a lot more than it currently does. 

One of the main reasons that I originally wanted to ski Sugarbush was the fact of how big it was and two unique mountains could be skied in one day by only a short lift ride. When I got to Sugarbush however, I was disappointed to see that I had to take a bus instead. I schlepped my ski gear down to the parking lot and waited 15 minutes for a bus (it arrived about 10 minutes late). I had to wait inside the bus for about 10 more minutes waiting for other people. The bus ride took another 10 minutes until I was finally at Mt. Ellen. In this time I could’ve ridden SlideBrook 3 times. 

It may seem odd to you why I like Slide Brook so much, but when I’m up skiing for one day, I want to be able to ski both mountains in a quick and efficient manner. 


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Where does your $25-50k figure come from?  What exactly does that buy you?

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Where does your $25-50k figure come from?  What exactly does that buy you?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Just figuring that this is the amount of money that it might take to regrade, widen, and clear the routes and liftline. 


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

LoL

If you had even said $250-500k, I'd have said that sounds low.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> LoL
> 
> If you had even said $250-500k, I'd have said that sounds low.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Still much less than installing a new lift... 


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Where are you trying to move the goal posts now?

They don't need a new Slidebrook lift.  

Instead of constantly whining about that lift's schedule, maybe just schedule your visits to SB later in the season when it's reliably open. 

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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Where are you trying to move the goal posts now?
> 
> They don't need a new Slidebrook lift.
> 
> ...



They don’t need a new Slide Brook lift, you are correct, but it would be an investment to make sure that the lift can operate reliably for most of the season. I’m not whining about Slide Brook, but it is a crucial lift to the Sugarbush lift system. I am just trying to point out ways to make sure that the two mountains are connected more often that do not require too much $$$ 


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They don’t need a new Slide Brook lift, you are correct, but it would be an investment to make sure that the lift can operate reliably for most of the season. I’m not whining about Slide Brook,* but it is a crucial lift* to the Sugarbush lift system. I am just trying to point out ways to make sure that the two mountains are connected more often that do not require too much $$$



No it isn't. You can ski 100% of Sugarbush's terrain without Slide Brook running. And you have shuttles as an alternate when it is not running to get between the mountains. Therefore I fail to see how it can be classified as "crucial".

I'm still not even sure I understand what you think you can regrade/widen/etc and how that would actually help the lift run more. Many years it does run the majority of the time that ME is open, so no matter what you do I still don't see that you're even going to add that many more days to justify any ROI on even a small investment.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

yet you don't know how much it would cost

I don't either, but I'd imagine it's probably seven figures given the length and topography; nevermind what you'd pay the state for the permits

And that money spent doesn't guarantee it snows enough to have it running Christmas week.....

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## MilanYVR (Dec 29, 2019)

You why U gotta be rude like that. Hes just asking a valid question about most likely his favourite ski lift. Also, nobody wants to the bus. Its like taking a stupid tram where you have to take off your skis. Nobody likes that.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

MilanYVR said:


> You why U gotta be rude like that. Hes just asking a valid question about most likely his favourite ski lift. Also, nobody wants to the bus. Its like taking a stupid tram where you have to take off your skis. Nobody likes that.


Slidebrook

Let me make this clear.  We don't allow aliases / imaginary friends on this forum

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Slidebrook
> 
> Let me make this clear.  We don't allow aliases / imaginary friends on this forum
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Let me make this clear. I have no idea who MilanYVR is. It’s unfair to assume that he’s an alias when he doesn’t share your opinion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Let me make this clear. I have no idea who MilanYVR is. It’s unfair to assume that he’s an alias when he doesn’t share your opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


riiiiiight.....just like that other "random" poster NewEnglandChairlifts

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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook, instead of coming on here and asking the same question over and over again.  You should just use your energy to convince your father to sell his claybrook unit and buy over at north.  That way the lift will never be an issue.  ;-)


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## pinnoke (Dec 29, 2019)

Funny comment about the aliases, especially in light of the recent Burlington, VT police chief situation 
Slidebrook has singlehandedly brought pages and pages of responses these past couple of weeks. As soon as there's some decent snow on the slopes, we'll have a lot less time to be focusing on the what ifs, and will be quite satisfied with what Sugarbush does indeed have to deliver.


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## machski (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They don’t need a new Slide Brook lift, you are correct, but it would be an investment to make sure that the lift can operate reliably for most of the season. I’m not whining about Slide Brook, but it is a crucial lift to the Sugarbush lift system. I am just trying to point out ways to make sure that the two mountains are connected more often that do not require too much $$$
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do get that Slidebrook is suppose to remain undeveloped and in its natural state.  Do you honestly think given the history of Slidebrook that a regrading/widening project would get Act 250 approval?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Greg (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It may seem odd to you why I like Slide Brook so much, but when I’m up skiing for one day, I want to be able to ski both mountains in a quick and efficient manner.



Take your right ski boot off and drive over. If you drive a stick, I don't have a solution for ya...


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## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2019)

Greg said:


> Take your right ski boot off and drive over. If you drive a stick, I don't have a solution for ya...



Actually have done this there before (rest of the fam kept their boots on) and also between Wildcat and Attitash (wildcat had a power outage).


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## skiur (Dec 29, 2019)

Greg said:


> Take your right ski boot off and drive over. If you drive a stick, I don't have a solution for ya...



To be fair, 12 year olds can't drive.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 29, 2019)

Dude how is slide-brook crucial to sugarbush lifts system it never runs , who cares like hawk said take the bus   I would rather ski to the bus  when possible enough slide brook banter  lets  talk weather,  skiing fun  face shots sick lines deep pow , blower  , gnar , off the richter etc yea like today           this is what I heard they were Planning on building a tunnel lift in slide brook so they did some testing that caused a major slide  which  is  visible  from the top of north lynx project scrapped  dam 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2019)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just curious, how difficult would it be to spend $25,000-$50,000 in providing better access to the Slide Brook liftline? This would ensure a reliable connection between both mountains most days of the days that Mt. Ellen is open. Up until somewhere 2004, evacuation of Slide Brook was disregarded. $50,000 to make a lift a heck of a lot more reliable would be worth it in the long run. I understand that the lift operations department makes choices about when to run lifts, but if Alterra were to invest in this and provide yearly evacuation trainings, the lift could run a lot more than it currently does.
> 
> One of the main reasons that I originally wanted to ski Sugarbush was the fact of how big it was and two unique mountains could be skied in one day by only a short lift ride. When I got to Sugarbush however, I was disappointed to see that I had to take a bus instead. I schlepped my ski gear down to the parking lot and waited 15 minutes for a bus (it arrived about 10 minutes late). I had to wait inside the bus for about 10 more minutes waiting for other people. The bus ride took another 10 minutes until I was finally at Mt. Ellen. In this time I could’ve ridden SlideBrook 3 times.
> 
> ...



I don’t think money solves the issue.  The GMNF/NFS set the rule regarding snow cover IIRC.


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## SlidebrookB7 (Dec 29, 2019)

O how I dream at night of riding the glorious Slidebrook lift into the heady azure sky, light the color of rich honey streaming from the morning sun. The chair, like an iron cradle, sweeps me swiftly through the cold alpine air above a pure white snowpack. I ride like a god, fire in my blood as I survey infinity in all directions, and lo! I can feel the world tremble before me. My soul is free and unfettered as I am raised immortal in spirit, liberated from all that is earthly and base. Transcendence is mine for I am not on the lowly bus, that sooty tool of the devil. And I be not alone! No, I share these deepest moments of meaning with my dearest friends, "NE Chairlifts & Skiing" and MilanYVR. They share my bliss, and our hearts beat as one. We three, speeding over majestic towers, have magnificence in our grasp. Is it not too much to ask that the ride never end?


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## Hawk (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm out boys.  I am going to be on first chair tomorrow to reap whatever comes.  Good luck with your poet Laurent friend here.  LOL


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## JimG. (Dec 29, 2019)

Glad this person skis at SB and not K.


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## ss20 (Dec 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I've always wondered though if other ski areas had curtailments as well or whether it was just something to do with a lack of capacity specifically within the MRV.



NYSEG charges significantly more/less for electrical power at Thunder Ridge depending on the time of day... and we're smack in the middle of suburban NY.  So it's definitely not a rural/MRV thing.  It's more expensive in the day and at night it's a lot cheaper as demand drops off.  This is at least my understanding of it. 

That said, Gsotto and crew will still be making snow in the middle of March, and be one of the final few ski areas in the northeast to blow snow for the season :beer:


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2019)

ss20 said:


> NYSEG charges significantly more/less for electrical power at Thunder Ridge depending on the time of day... and we're smack in the middle of suburban NY.  So it's definitely not a rural/MRV thing.  It's more expensive in the day and at night it's a lot cheaper as demand drops off.  This is at least my understanding of it.



That's still a little different than a power company outright saying "stop using power during these specific hours on this particular day since we anticipate unusually high demand" though.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 29, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Glad this person skis at SB and not K.



He needs to go back to wherever he came from. He is clearly not a SB skier.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2019)

cdskier said:


> An hour away is a big difference. Wasn't Killington previously covered by CVPS before the merger with GMP? So the grids/infrastructure covering the MRV vs K could be vastly different. Even if they had both been from the same company, the grids could still be significantly more robust in the K area since it is a much more populated area than the MRV. I've always wondered though if other ski areas had curtailments as well or whether it was just something to do with a lack of capacity specifically within the MRV.



Bingo.  As you said, Killington was on the now-former CVPS whereas GMP provides electricity to the MRV.  Different systems, different markets, different deals that were negotiated.  Killington also was the 500 lb gorilla for CVPS along with Sister Mount Snow.  Now of course both CVPS and GMP are one.  I won't comment any further on that travesty other than to say that once again Vermont shows that while it talks about local control when the rubber hits the road big money calls the shots and monopolies rule the state in various industries.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 30, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I'm out boys.  I am going to be on first chair tomorrow to reap whatever comes.  Good luck with your poet Laurent friend here.  LOL



How is it up there? Sitting in the valley and it's all frozen rain.


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## Domeskier (Dec 30, 2019)

SlidebrookB7 said:


> O how I dream at night of riding the glorious Slidebrook lift into the heady azure sky, light the color of rich honey streaming from the morning sun. The chair, like an iron cradle, sweeps me swiftly through the cold alpine air above a pure white snowpack. I ride like a god, fire in my blood as I survey infinity in all directions, and lo! I can feel the world tremble before me. My soul is free and unfettered as I am raised immortal in spirit, liberated from all that is earthly and base. Transcendence is mine for I am not on the lowly bus, that sooty tool of the devil. And I be not alone! No, I share these deepest moments of meaning with my dearest friends, "NE Chairlifts & Skiing" and MilanYVR. They share my bliss, and our hearts beat as one. We three, speeding over majestic towers, have magnificence in our grasp. Is it not too much to ask that the ride never end?



Encore!


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 30, 2019)

Sweet morning  dense sleet/snow did not get wet lots of laps got  chopped and crowded  amazing stuff


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## WinS (Dec 30, 2019)

STREETSKIER said:


> Sweet morning  dense sleet/snow did not get wet lots of laps got  chopped and crowded  amazing stuff
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just the type of snow we needed. We feared an inversion but that did not happen at least at the Summit - maybe higher up.  The first runs of the day were buttery and the snow is bonding well. It is getting chopped up as the crowd builds. It should all groom in well tonight and it now looks like snow will possibly continue into Wednesday. Early tracks tomorrow will be worth it.


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## Hawk (Dec 30, 2019)

3 to 4 inches of sleet.  Actually skied great.  I was on the first chair and skied steins. What a difference a day makes.  Went up HG 3rd chair and it was a little different up there.  The warm air must have moved in over night for a period of time as there was a coating of freezing rain from the top down to about spills.  It did break up with skier traffic.  Paradise skied great until skier traffic did its damage.  I had a great half day.


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## mikec142 (Dec 30, 2019)

I know it's just Monday, but what's the prevailing thought on this weekend.  Saturday doesn't look good.  I was planning to come up (5.5 hours) with my 17 year old daughter.  But if it's gonna be rain on Saturday, I'll never hear the end of it.


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## ducky (Dec 30, 2019)

mikec142 said:


> I know it's just Monday, but what's the prevailing thought on this weekend.  Saturday doesn't look good.  I was planning to come up (5.5 hours) with my 17 year old daughter.  But if it's gonna be rain on Saturday, I'll never hear the end of it.



Unfortunately, my iPhone weather forecast says rain Fri 39˚ and rain Sat too 42˚. Subject to change though - stay tuned. Think snow.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 30, 2019)

Mt Ellen was a lot of fun today.  Winds blowing hard at the top of North Ridge chair.  Nice refill on Exterminator.


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## shadyjay (Dec 30, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, is Summit not yet open for the season at the MEllen?  Has snow been made up top yet, or was it similar to last year when the temps were better to make snow down low, and then a break in the temps, hence what's happening now?  I know the chair doesn't give you much (FIS, BD, Upper Rim Run), but those views on a nice day from the summit can't be beat!  From a business perspective, its better probably to have the terrain park and other lower elevation intermediate runs open at this stage of the game.  In fact, this was an early opening of the big park.  

Probably going to wait until March to make my trip up north for a few days.  Next week I have off, but more pressing family issues have come up.


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## kingslug (Dec 30, 2019)

Good day today..everything got better as the day went on..murphy glade was cool..run under HG chair was fun way to end the day..more tomorrow


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 30, 2019)

Ended up doing the Noon-4pm shift at North today. Fantastic skiing. Really happy to get out there after the ice we dealt w/ this weekend.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 30, 2019)

*Why so popular?*

Sugarbush thread is closing in on 700 pages, nearly 900,000 views. No other thread comes close, except big burke, which was a crime site! Why is that?


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## Los (Dec 30, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Good day today..everything got better as the day went on..murphy glade was cool..run under HG chair was fun way to end the day..more tomorrow



How were crowds today? Maybe as compared to an average Sugarbush Saturday?


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## TSQURD (Dec 30, 2019)

Los said:


> How were crowds today? Maybe as compared to an average Sugarbush Saturday?



We only skied in the PM, but way less than an average Sat. HG was ski right on. Don't think we ever waited more than a chair or 2 on Bravo.


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## cdskier (Dec 30, 2019)

TSQURD said:


> We only skied in the PM, but way less than an average Sat. HG was ski right on. Don't think we ever waited more than a chair or 2 on Bravo.



I'm not there, but anytime I peaked at the webcams I thought it looked surprisingly uncrowded. Super Bravo and HG both definitely looked less crowded than typical mid-winter weekend days.


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## kingslug (Dec 30, 2019)

Minimal crowds..


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## HowieT2 (Dec 30, 2019)

Wasn’t really crowded.
skiing was super fun.  Even got into the woods a bit.  A little thin but surprisingly good coverage in there.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 31, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

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## STREETSKIER (Dec 31, 2019)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



STREETSKIER said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No coverage is good coverage ? Really  ? I know better  you should too , only a fool would go in this early    Have at it

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## kingslug (Dec 31, 2019)

Looks like real snow coming down now here at sb...they say an inch...a BIG inch..supposed to snow all day and night...going to be a good day


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## skiur (Dec 31, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Sugarbush thread is closing in on 700 pages, nearly 900,000 views. No other thread comes close, except big burke, which was a crime site! Why is that?



Maybe because the thread is 15 years old.


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## WinS (Dec 31, 2019)

shadyjay said:


> Just out of curiosity, is Summit not yet open for the season at the MEllen?  Has snow been made up top yet, or was it similar to last year when the temps were better to make snow down low, and then a break in the temps, hence what's happening now?  I know the chair doesn't give you much (FIS, BD, Upper Rim Run), but those views on a nice day from the summit can't be beat!  From a business perspective, its better probably to have the terrain park and other lower elevation intermediate runs open at this stage of the game.  In fact, this was an early opening of the big park.
> 
> Probably going to wait until March to make my trip up north for a few days.  Next week I have off, but more pressing family issues have come up.



Yes, Shady, that is the reason. It is really Baldy that needs the snow. After we get Northstar and Cruiser finished we will go there  and get Summit going.


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## WinS (Dec 31, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Wasn’t really crowded.
> skiing was super fun.  Even got into the woods a bit.  A little thin but surprisingly good coverage in there.



About 6,400 which is not bad. The big days are 8,000 plus.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2019)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Sugarbush thread is closing in on 700 pages, nearly 900,000 views. No other thread comes close, except big burke, which was a crime site! Why is that?



Because a lot of AZers are passionate skiers of SB.


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## kingslug (Dec 31, 2019)

And it was awesome today


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## WWF-VT (Dec 31, 2019)

kingslug said:


> And it was awesome today




+ 1 Mt Ellen was great - Natural snow on Cliffs, Tumbler, Hammerhead and Lower Exterminator were the winners - and it's always nice to never wait in a lift line.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 31, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> + 1 Mt Ellen was great - Natural snow on Cliffs, Tumbler, Hammerhead and Lower Exterminator were the winners - and it's always nice to never wait in a lift line.



Ditto. Started at South and had my 2 best runs of the season so far (missed the storm in early December) on Paradise to start they day. Moved over to North after Lunch and it was ski on to the lift. Exterminator was great.


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## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2019)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Ditto. Started at South and had my 2 best runs of the season so far (missed the storm in early December) on Paradise to start they day. Moved over to North after Lunch and it was ski on to the lift. Exterminator was great.



How did you get there without slidebrook open?


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 31, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> How did you get there without slidebrook open?



Long hike from North but it was worth it!


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## kingslug (Jan 1, 2020)

8 inches so far and still coming down!


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## HowieT2 (Jan 1, 2020)

Happy new year!
castlerock was awesome yesterday.  Hiked over around 1:30.  Did castlerock run over to cotillion.


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## flakeydog (Jan 1, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Sugarbush thread is closing in on 700 pages, nearly 900,000 views. No other thread comes close, except big burke, which was a crime site! Why is that?



SKIMRV seems to be chronically out of service- this is the next best alternative.  All in a single thread no less.  And clearly, Sugarbush is really the only mountain worth talking about this much. :lol:


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## WinS (Jan 1, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> SKIMRV seems to be chronically out of service- this is the next best alternative.  All in a single thread no less.  And clearly, Sugarbush is really the only mountain worth talking about this much. :lol:



I would echo the statement that this is one passionate group.  Has always been fun to engage with most everyone. Happy New Year to all.  Keep the snow dances going. It is working.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 1, 2020)

Another fun day here on Mt Ellen...still snowing at 1 PM.  Happy New Year !


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## kingslug (Jan 1, 2020)

And...still snowing


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## ducky (Jan 1, 2020)

Two nice hikes to CR today. Really was a powder day over there. We happened to do Middle Earth both times and I was lucky enough to get untracked down most of the left shoulder. Figure-8'ed my line the second run.

Just a comment about trail hiking etiquette (on the Long Trail) as a fight nearly broke out ahead of me: just let faster people pass and move aside. No need to deliberately hold up folks who are either fitter or faster. You wouldn't do it if hiking in the summer, don't do it in the winter.


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## kingslug (Jan 1, 2020)

Some pics..steins..lower paradise..and others


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## cdskier (Jan 1, 2020)

ducky said:


> Just a comment about trail hiking etiquette (on the Long Trail) as a fight nearly broke out ahead of me: just let faster people pass and move aside. No need to deliberately hold up folks who are either fitter or faster. You wouldn't do it if hiking in the summer, don't do it in the winter.



What the heck do people think they accomplish by trying not to let others pass them? I'm perfectly content to let people pass me as I hate  when I have the feeling of people catching up to me.


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## TSQURD (Jan 1, 2020)

cdskier said:


> What the heck do people think they accomplish by trying not to let others pass them? I'm perfectly content to let people pass me as I hate  when I have the feeling of people catching up to me.



I think everyone needs to be a little more courteous. I've hiked over to CR only twice this year, but both times witnessed people almost come to blows.  I just don't get it. Today, I was waiting for the slower part of my group (off to the side so people could get by) at the spot where you click in for the last down before castlerock. A family making the hike for the first time was starting down leaving appropriate space.  In the time they took to get going a small (3-4 people) back up formed.  The next guy comes up and just about pushed the the guy ahead of him over to get by. Really unnecessary, and didn't go over well, obviously, with the guy that got pushed.  In both cases the instigator was old enough to know better.


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## shipyardcreek (Jan 1, 2020)

I have not witnessed any confrontations when I hike.  I always let faster people pass, but there a few places where it is not possible to step aside, so those in back have to be patient for a minute or two.  Everyone has been polite.  Anyway, what does it matter if you are a minute later, the snow is not going to melt.


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## ducky (Jan 2, 2020)

Forever the optimist:

http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/2020/01/forecast-for-weekend-storm-shifts.html


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## Greg (Jan 2, 2020)

ducky said:


> Forever the optimist:
> 
> http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/2020/01/forecast-for-weekend-storm-shifts.html



I've been following this blog for years and I think he's been pretty solid. Heading up next weekend so hopefully things set up well next week. Would like to see CR start spinning.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 2, 2020)

Greg said:


> I've been following this blog for years and I think he's been pretty solid. Heading up next weekend so hopefully things set up well next week. Would like to see CR start spinning.



unfortunately the overnight model runs didn’t do us any favors.


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## slatham (Jan 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> unfortunately the overnight model runs didn’t do us any favors.



Not according to the Euro. And the Euro has been trending better. It caught onto the Sunday storm being cold/snow well before GFS. Though admittedly for SB there is the risk the storm goes TOO far south. Has been trending better for Wednesday too and now would be as modeled all snow.


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## cdskier (Jan 2, 2020)

Greg said:


> I've been following this blog for years and I think he's been pretty solid. Heading up next weekend so hopefully things set up well next week. Would like to see CR start spinning.



Same here...although I do think the past few years he's been a bit more guilty of "wish-casting" at times.


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## jaybird (Jan 2, 2020)

Josh Rocks !

What's all this about Skate / Golf at North on Friday?
Is it a par 5 and are East German judges involved?

Happy New Year !


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 2, 2020)

This uncourteous behavior is not something new with Suugarbush. 

Every time ive skied there I get the worst sense of entitlement from the skiers which sucks because the employees, mountain setup and terrain are all top notch. I was there last year when a grown man physically fought a 13 year old kid in the lift line and I am now seriously contemplating trying out Bolton Valley or MRG instead on my yearly NVT trip this year.

Ive never seen so many goretex wearing NE skiing hardos in my life. 4 inches of snow doesnt give you the right to run through people like bowling pins just so you can "get yours"........


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## ducky (Jan 2, 2020)

On the other hand, the guy could have just stepped aside and let them pass.


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## mikec142 (Jan 2, 2020)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> This uncourteous behavior is not something new with Suugarbush.
> 
> Every time ive skied there I get the worst sense of entitlement from the skiers which sucks because the employees, mountain setup and terrain are all top notch. I was there last year when a grown man physically fought a 13 year old kid in the lift line and I am now seriously contemplating trying out Bolton Valley or MRG instead on my yearly NVT trip this year.
> 
> Ive never seen so many goretex wearing NE skiing hardos in my life. 4 inches of snow doesnt give you the right to run through people like bowling pins just so you can "get yours"........



I don't want to discount your experience.  However, these kind of posts crack me up.  Your data subset is so small as to be statistically insignificant.  Not to mention that your data set is subject to your feelings.  I would counter your comments with, I regularly drive 90 minutes further north than I have to just to ski at SB for multiple reasons. One of them is that I find the skiers to be kind, courteous and talented.  What does this show?  It shows that it's easy to have the exact opposite experience when analyzing poor data.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 2, 2020)

ducky said:


> On the other hand, the guy could have just stepped aside and let them pass.



Do you think it's okay for someone who's acting like a jerk to get his way (aka passing the guy who was pushed)?  There is no "on the other hand" when it comes to someone pushing down  another person to get by.  None.  Maybe the guy should have stepped  aside but that doesn't make the aggressors behavior acceptable.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 2, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I don't want to discount your experience.  However, these kind of posts crack me up.  Your data subset is so small as to be statistically insignificant.  Not to mention that your data set is subject to your feelings.  I would counter your comments with, I regularly drive 90 minutes further north than I have to just to ski at SB for multiple reasons. One of them is that I find the skiers to be kind, courteous and talented.  What does this show?  It shows that it's easy to have the exact opposite experience when analyzing poor data.



Agreed...I'm a 40+ day a year skier at SB (and from January-closing day those days are pretty much weekends only). I've rarely seen any rude behavior from the skiers at SB. I'm sure it happens from time to time (as it does probably at almost all major resorts), however the vast majority of skiers I've interacted with have been exactly as you describe. As for the specific incident mentioned in the previous post, if my memory serves me correct, that person was essentially banned from SB after that incident (and wasn't a passholder).


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## HowieT2 (Jan 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Agreed...I'm a 40+ day a year skier at SB (and from January-closing day those days are pretty much weekends only). I've rarely seen any rude behavior from the skiers at SB. I'm sure it happens from time to time (as it does probably at almost all major resorts), however the vast majority of skiers I've interacted with have been exactly as you describe. As for the specific incident mentioned in the previous post, if my memory serves me correct, that person was essentially banned from SB after that incident (and wasn't a passholder).



+1.


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## ducky (Jan 2, 2020)

TheArchitect said:


> Do you think it's okay for someone who's acting like a jerk to get his way (aka passing the guy who was pushed)?  There is no "on the other hand" when it comes to someone pushing down  another person to get by.  None.  Maybe the guy should have stepped  aside but that doesn't make the aggressors behavior acceptable.



I was actually there, literally behind these two, and your description is not what happened at all. Nobody got pushed down. Frankly the guy in front did not have his skis on and the guy behind did and was ready to go. The skiers that were waiting for friends were standing aside and the guy behind with his GF asked if he could pass and the guy in front said, "yes, I do mind, I was here first." To which the guy behind pointed out the other's skis were not on and tried make his way past. The first guy blocked his way, made a big fuss and put his skis on and went first.

2 minutes later, the guy in front was complaining to patrol in the shack when the guy who tried to push past walked in and totally apologized. In the end the air was clear and all was good. Frankly, the guy who tried to get past totally took responsibility and was quite honorable.

Probably, both guys acted out of character and regret the whole thing.


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## Griswold (Jan 2, 2020)

Complaining to Patrol?  Haha what a baby.  Not seeing how this is the 2nd guy’s fault.  What’s the harm in someone going first if you’re not ready?


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## Griswold (Jan 2, 2020)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> This uncourteous behavior is not something new with Suugarbush.
> 
> Every time ive skied there I get the worst sense of entitlement from the skiers which sucks because the employees, mountain setup and terrain are all top notch. I was there last year when a grown man physically fought a 13 year old kid in the lift line and I am now seriously contemplating trying out Bolton Valley or MRG instead on my yearly NVT trip this year.
> 
> Ive never seen so many goretex wearing NE skiing hardos in my life. 4 inches of snow doesnt give you the right to run through people like bowling pins just so you can "get yours"........



There is no denying there are plenty of people with the entitled, God’s gift to skiing attitude at Sugarbush, especially on a powder day. Now that I think of it, plenty of people on here have that attitude.  Guess that’s why this thread gets so much action!


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 2, 2020)

Amazing what a feeding frenzy  happens when it snows  
Today was really good  light crowds super snow  , looks  like north lynx next  ? Tomorrow ? Or sat 


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 2, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Griswold said:


> There is no denying there are plenty of people with the entitled, God’s gift to skiing attitude at Sugarbush, especially on a powder day. Now that I think of it, plenty of people on here have that attitude.  Guess that’s why this thread gets so much action!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
> ...


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 2, 2020)

I was just a kid when I first started skiing here I came over from mad river  one spring , skiing at north those years they were battling Killy I met a bunch of locals and skied fis and a ribbon down looking good or hike to elbow  
. One of the guys asked me my name he looked  at me and said you have to get a pass here  I spent the spring (may)with this crew and took his advice that was 40 years ago  the skier was John Egan 




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## TheArchitect (Jan 2, 2020)

ducky said:


> I was actually there, literally behind these two, and your description is not what happened at all. Nobody got pushed down. Frankly the guy in front did not have his skis on and the guy behind did and was ready to go. The skiers that were waiting for friends were standing aside and the guy behind with his GF asked if he could pass and the guy in front said, "yes, I do mind, I was here first." To which the guy behind pointed out the other's skis were not on and tried make his way past. The first guy blocked his way, made a big fuss and put his skis on and went first.
> 
> 2 minutes later, the guy in front was complaining to patrol in the shack when the guy who tried to push past walked in and totally apologized. In the end the air was clear and all was good. Frankly, the guy who tried to get past totally took responsibility and was quite honorable.
> 
> Probably, both guys acted out of character and regret the whole thing.



My apologies, ducky.  I read it quickly and missed "just about" with regard to him being pushed.  Sorry for the confusion.  With your description of what happened I agree, the guy should have moved over.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 2, 2020)

Griswold said:


> There is no denying there are plenty of people with the entitled, God’s gift to skiing attitude at Sugarbush, especially on a powder day. Now that I think of it, plenty of people on here have that attitude.  Guess that’s why this thread gets so much action!



It gets a lot of action because of how great the mountain is.  The attitude you speak of is more prevalent up at Stowe, IMO, but it's also being expressed more in general.  People feeling entitled isn't anything new but what IS new is that in the current culture people seem to think you can say and do rude things without getting in trouble.  I don't want to go into politics here


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## jaybird (Jan 2, 2020)

It's a sign of the times and the dearth of snow doesn't help.
Being considerate doesn't involve politics.
It's just the right thing to do.
You want to see some rude skiers, hit Europe sometime.
Sugarbush is pretty tame.

Cant wait to ski birch tomorrow


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## Hawk (Jan 3, 2020)

This is all very foreign to me.  I have never seen any of these tactics on my way to Castlerock and I have gone there at least 2 or 3 times a weekend for the past few weeks not to mention past years.  I would bet that the people that had the attitude were not from the valley.  Most people here are very courteous and friendly.  Also this whole entitlement thing it do not understand.  I think that people that come here and draw these kinds of conclusions, do so because they have a predetermined perception.  I came here 15 years ago and was taken in immediately by the community.  Now I know probably 50% of the regulars by name and probably another 25% by face.  My perception is that this valley is way more friendly than any other area I have skied.  Places like Killington, Stowe and several of the NY areas I skied were more like that to me but In general I just ignore Assholes and ski away.  I am not in the mountains to deal with people like that.


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## ducky (Jan 3, 2020)

From today's snow report...

Castlerock is open for hiking from Paradise 10AM - 3PM. Be respectful of other travelers. The route via the Long Trail is narrow. Please step to the side and allow faster folks to pass.


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## slatham (Jan 3, 2020)

ducky said:


> From today's snow report...
> 
> Castlerock is open for hiking from Paradise 10AM - 3PM. Be respectful of other travelers. The route via the Long Trail is narrow. Please step to the side and allow faster folks to pass.



This is proper Long Trail hiking etiquette. Should apply regardless of season.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 3, 2020)

TheArchitect said:


> It gets a lot of action because of how great the mountain is.  The attitude you speak of is more prevalent up at Stowe, IMO, but it's also being expressed more in general.  People feeling entitled isn't anything new but what IS new is that in the current culture people seem to think you can say and do rude things without getting in trouble.  I don't want to go into politics here



I hiked it 2x today, it was crowded in the morning but people were nothing but courteous. This has been my experience for the past 20 years. The only time people get snarky with each other is on this board. [emoji23]Lift line skied great. A little sticky at the bottom, especially on the run out, but a small price to pay IMHO. 


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## Orca (Jan 4, 2020)

Oh so good to be out there today! Paradise was especially fun. I was thinking of hiking to Castlerock just for the fun of cursing abusively and shoving people in my way into the snow, but well you can't do _everything_ in one day


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## Hawk (Jan 4, 2020)

3 labs today on Castlerock.  Middle Earth, Lift Line and then liftline- hi-lo-castlerock-cotillion-cats paw-liftline finsh.  Run of the day.........Liftline!  really good snow.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 4, 2020)

What's the bet on which chair will spin first -Castlerock or Summit at Mt Ellen ?


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## Orca (Jan 4, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> What's the bet on which chair will spin first -Castlerock or Summit at Mt Ellen ?



Why is summit not turning? There is snow up there


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## djd66 (Jan 4, 2020)

Orca said:


> Why is summit not turning? There is snow up there



Agreed,.. I was at North today and there was a ton of snow up top, not sure why they did not turn the summit lift.


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## Griswold (Jan 4, 2020)

How many of you literally ski next to each other alone and have no interest in skiing together?  I don’t get the point of these forums.  Is it just to come on here and throw out opinions or some conditions report?  Add in the fact that there are like 5 other forums with the same members posting the exact same things with the exact same people responding and it starts seem ridiculous to me.  




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## ducky (Jan 5, 2020)

I hiked up to top of FIS yesterday around 9:30 and it was indeed white but not really ready. I have skied FIS in much worse conditions however.
In years of being on skimrv before here, think I only know one or two people in person.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2020)

Griswold said:


> How many of you literally ski next to each other alone and have no interest in skiing together?  I don’t get the point of these forums.  Is it just to come on here and throw out opinions or some conditions report?  Add in the fact that there are like 5 other forums with the same members posting the exact same things with the exact same people responding and it starts seem ridiculous to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



What are the other forums?

Personally, there are a lot of very funny people on here I enjoy reading. Then there are the ski God types,... they make me laugh too


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## Orca (Jan 5, 2020)

This is a re-post of *thetrailboss* from another thread focused on the effect of Vermont's governmental posture and taxes on the economic vibrancy of the state. It is the most thoughtful post I have read on this forum. Certainly worth the time to read.



flakeydog said:


> Bottom line is I can live very well here on a decent salary in a vacation paradise and still be productive in life and raise kids. What could be better than that?  Virtually anywhere else that has this kind of access to outdoor recreation (skiing, hiking, boating, fishing, hunting, etc) is expensive, devoid of legit job opportunities, isolated from quality cultural and medical facilities, or is not a great place to live year round.





thetrailboss said:


> I used to think the same, but once I got out and traveled I found a lot of places that have all of these things and lower costs of living and better income and career potential.  I'm living in one area now.





flakeydog said:


> That “premium” I spoke of before is the quality of life here, it has value. I would have to be a very wealthy man to live this way anywhere else.





thetrailboss said:


> I get this as well, but again, my question was how does paying high taxes contribute to this quality of life?  It doesn't in fact.  Vermont's infrastructure is in shambles because lawmakers from Chittenden county decided that VTrans should not determine what roads need work and they instead shifted control and money to Chittenden County.  Look at Route 2.  I won't comment about the complete lack of oversight and accountability by Vermont's government the last 10 years other than to say that there is a lot of conflicts of interest, self-dealing, and complete fraud.  The attitude is that just because such deals benefit the "left" it is OK.  Well, that doesn't make this kind of behavior acceptable.  Need I remind folks about the EB-5 scandal?  What sensible investor would ever invest in a Vermont business after that debacle?
> 
> While I agree that some schools are very good, the fact is that most of Vermont's are not doing that "great" compared to the national average, and when considering the amount of money spent.  I'm sure you have read the many articles about how schools are closing and consolidating because of costs.  And, most disappointing, the State took over education funding in the late 1990's thanks to the Brigham decision in order to provide all kids with the same opportunities.  Now more than 20 years later, guess what?  The "gold towns" still have great schools while the rest of the towns are struggling.  Here is one article on school performance in Vermont by Art Woolf, and before anyone labels him as "far-right", realize that he is Governor Kunin's former Chief Economist for the State back in the 1980's:  https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...ent-test-results-arent-worth-money/525909002/
> 
> ...


----------



## MorningWoods (Jan 5, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Griswold said:


> How many of you literally ski next to each other alone and have no interest in skiing together?  I don’t get the point of these forums.  Is it just to come on here and throw out opinions or some conditions report?  Add in the fact that there are like 5 other forums with the same members posting the exact same things with the exact same people responding and it starts seem ridiculous to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just a group of people who are passionate about skiing who like to share thoughts and opinions and directly interact with a very engaged owner. More of a lurker than a poster, but I’ve enjoyed the differences of opinions feedback, intel and general banter. If you don’t get that forums probably aren’t for you. 

P.S. not having pizza soul in the village totally sux. I hope Jason is doing ok in the valley, but i wish there was a closer pizza option for last minute meals and convenience 


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## teleo (Jan 5, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> P.S. not having pizza soul in the village totally sux. I hope Jason is doing ok in the valley, but i wish there was a closer pizza option for last minute meals and convenience
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



+1
Pizza Soul was so much more useful than an expanded realty office.  Jason seemed to be doing well when I stopped in to chat last week.  Apparently they wouldn't renew the lease or something like that.  He said he never would have abandoned the village.  
Good luck to him.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Just a group of people who are passionate about skiing who like to share thoughts and opinions and directly interact with a very engaged owner. More of a lurker than a poster, but I’ve enjoyed the differences of opinions feedback, intel and general banter. If you don’t get that forums probably aren’t for you.
> 
> P.S. not having pizza soul in the village totally sux. I hope Jason is doing ok in the valley, but i wish there was a closer pizza option for last minute meals and convenience
> 
> ...



+1 on the Pizza Soul!  He was the “Soul of the Village”. Quite honestly, it really sucks if they upped his rent so much that he had to move.  I would love to know the story and if there is any way to get the guy back up to the Village. If they did up his rent, that was pretty stupid, as the guy brought a ton of value to the aging village.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2020)

teleo said:


> +1
> Pizza Soul was so much more useful than an expanded realty office.  Jason seemed to be doing well when I stopped in to chat last week.  Apparently they wouldn't renew the lease or something like that.  He said he never would have abandoned the village.
> Good luck to him.



Blame the tenants upstairs. They kept taking the building owner to court over the "smell of pizza" and the "floor being too hot" from the pizza oven. Building owner got tired of constantly having to fight it. He told Jason that Jason could take over the court battles and fight it if he wanted to...but obviously Jason went the route of moving elsewhere (can't say I blame him).

But yes, not having Pizza Soul right there sucks.


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2020)

Is it a requirement of IKon to display the pass outside your jacket?  Have seen them everywhere this weekend.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Is it a requirement of IKon to display the pass outside your jacket?  Have seen them everywhere this weekend.



Only if you're at a resort that doesn't use RFID...


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Is it a requirement of IKon to display the pass outside your jacket?  Have seen them everywhere this weekend.



Nope. That is a personal decision.  You will see some Sugarbush passholders theirs outside as well, but ours are not as noticeable since they are smaller and do not have a photo on them.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Blame the tenants upstairs. They kept taking the building owner to court over the "smell of pizza" and the "floor being too hot" from the pizza oven. Building owner got tired of constantly having to fight it. He told Jason that Jason could take over the court battles and fight it if he wanted to...but obviously Jason went the route of moving elsewhere (can't say I blame him).
> 
> But yes, not having Pizza Soul right there sucks.




That is really a shame.  Too bad he could not just move into the first floor of the Reks.  The guy was always super nice and worked his ass off during the season.  In the past, I would place an order on Friday night after getting off exit 5 and he would have it waiting for me. Where is his new location?  If possible I would like to try and continue doing business with him.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2020)

djd66 said:


> That is really a shame.  Too bad he could not just move into the first floor of the Reks.  The guy was always super nice and worked his ass off during the season.  In the past, I would place an order on Friday night after getting off exit 5 and he would have it waiting for me. Where is his new location?  If possible I would like to try and continue doing business with him.



Yea, I would order from Rochester or so coming up 100 a lot of times on a Friday night and pick it up on the way to my condo. His new location is next to Mad Taco.


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## ducky (Jan 5, 2020)

He'll do much better downtown. He's in the same row as Mad Taco, right by Mehurons. Village Square has got it going on with Stoke Ramen also open. Mad Taco, Canteen Creemee, Pizza Soul, and Stoke Ramen all in the same complex.


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2020)

I think Jason is doing really well down in the plaza.  The people in the Mad Taco said his business has doubled down there.  Much more traffic in town ya know.

I started coming on here to see what was going on at the mountain.  Now I find there are a ton of people on here I know.  Some of the things we talk about are fun and some are informative.  There are people I would really like to meet.  There are others not so much.  It is clear who is like minded.


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2020)

ducky said:


> He'll do much better downtown. He's in the same row as Mad Taco, right by Mehurons. Village Square has got it going on with Stoke Ramen also open. Mad Taco, Canteen Creemee, Pizza Soul, and Stoke Ramen all in the same complex.


Ducky did you hear there was a big fire at Infinite sports today.  I heard that Mehurons and the other businesses on that side will be closed for at least a few weeks.


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## ducky (Jan 5, 2020)

I did hear that. Not sure if it affected the side buildings or not. Sad for everyone. My wife's office is down by Tempest Books in Village Square.


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2020)

If true, that is terrible. 

On another note, was surprised to walk into the Pub and had to wait to be seated.  People hovering for your seats sometimes got annoying but was part of the charm, it is an art.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2020)

https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/13979-four-alarm-fire-at-village-square


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> If true, that is terrible.
> 
> On another note, was surprised to walk into the Pub and had to wait to be seated.  People hovering for your seats sometimes got annoying but was part of the charm, it is an art.



The system is actually working really well. I was a bit skeptical when originally proposed, but it has improved the guest experience and made it better for the Pub team. My family tried it for the first time today and gave it &#55357;&#56397;


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> If true, that is terrible.
> 
> On another note, was surprised to walk into the Pub and had to wait to be seated.  People hovering for your seats sometimes got annoying but was part of the charm, it is an art.



I was talking to Nina about the seating.  They are doing that for Lunch only. After 3pm it goes back to the way it was.  They wanted to try to maximize the seating for lunch because they have had to turn people away in the past,


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## rocks860 (Jan 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/13979-four-alarm-fire-at-village-square



That’s awful, I’ve been going there for years, Seth is a great guy and has always been super helpful


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 6, 2020)

Wil the real street skier please stand up 
Please stand up 



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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2020)

Not sure what that means but sure.  Stand up all you want.


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## mikec142 (Jan 6, 2020)

Super happy that I went up this past weekend.  The forecast early in the week was creating doubt in my mind, but the forecast changed on Thursday.  As I drove into the valley from Burlington on Saturday, it was misting/drizzling ever so slightly, but it changed to snow about a third of the way up the Lincoln Peak access road.  Discovered some new (to me) stuff like Grand Stand Glades.  Thought Cruiser and Exterminator skied really, really well.

The plan is to go up again this coming weekend, but it's weather dependent for me, and it's not looking good.  Fingers crossed for forecast to change like it did this past week.


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## bumpcrasher (Jan 7, 2020)

I know people enjoy hiking yet is Castlerock LIFT ever going to open?  There appears to be sufficient coverage at this point in the season.


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2020)

bumpcrasher said:


> I know people enjoy hiking yet is Castlerock LIFT ever going to open?  There appears to be sufficient coverage at this point in the season.



It is lack of snow around the base lift and entrance that is the issue.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> It is lack of snow around the base lift and entrance that is the issue.



I know that there was some talk of installing snowmaking at the base of CR lift.  Has that happen or is it still in the plan?


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I know that there was some talk of installing snowmaking at the base of CR lift.  Has that happen or is it still in the plan?



Maybe some day. Has not been the highest priority but now that power lines are gone might be more feasible.


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## machski (Jan 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> Maybe some day. Has not been the highest priority but now that power lines are gone might be more feasible.


If this gets considered, consider running the line up to about tower 3 on Liftline.  Always seems like that tower and below on Liftline tends to run the thinnest once the lift turns while the balance of CR pod holds snow quite well.  It's the only section I've ever wished for snowmaking assistance in CR.

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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2020)

machski said:


> If this gets considered, consider running the line up to about tower 3 on Liftline.  Always seems like that tower and below on Liftline tends to run the thinnest once the lift turns while the balance of CR pod holds snow quite well.  It's the only section I've ever wished for snowmaking assistance in CR.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



IIRC that was the plan.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2020)

I hope Jason kills it with pizza soul in what should be be called the mehurons food court.  He makes a great pizza.  Always did back to his days at the gatehouse.  I havent tried the ramen place yet but there are some seriously good eats there.

I happened to stop in to infinite sports last week and it didnt appear to be doing so well.  strange for a ski shop to have no skis

so after affirming how nice and courteous skiers were at sugarbush, I had karma bite me in the ass. 
 I came down downspout in the afternoon on friday, all the way skiers right and made a sharp left turn to the corral for heavens gate.  There were a few people standing by the corral but the lift was ski on.  I saw an older couple standing right before the corral and as I proceeded, they started to slowly move to go down lower downspout, perpendicular to me, into my path.  So I went by them and stopped at the entrance to the corral.  The older man started yelling at me, that I cut him off, cut his wife off and was out of control.  I was standing near his wife and I explained to her that it was kind of an intersection since I was going straight to the lift, and that I was sorry if they were offended but that I didnt make any contact with them.  and technically they were the uphill skiers.  Then the man, who I would estimate was in his 70's raised his ski pole and started yelling at me that he was going to stick it up my ass.  At this point I was standing next to a patroller and we both looked at each other like, wtf?  He kept pointing his pole and yelling at me so I approached him and told him to go ahead and try it. We exchanged pleasantries while he continued to menace me with his pole and threaten me verbally.  When he finally stopped, I told his wife  that she should get her man some anger management.  I was kind of upset because I really try to be courteous and didnt want them thinking I wasnt, but it was like the guy had the skiing equivalent to road rage.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I hope Jason kills it with pizza soul in what should be be called the mehurons food court.  He makes a great pizza.  Always did back to his days at the gatehouse.  I havent tried the ramen place yet but there are some seriously good eats there.



I hope Jason does well there too. I always tell him he makes better pizza than most places here in NJ!

The Ramen place is great. I checked them out a few weeks ago. Not a lot of seats though (maybe ~20 including the 10 at the bar).


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I happened to stop in to infinite sports last week and it didnt appear to be doing so well.  strange for a ski shop to have no skis


  Seth stopped selling skis last season (or the one prior), as he said he couldn't complete with sales online, and was always eating the previous years inventory.


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## pinnoke (Jan 7, 2020)

ThinkSnow said:


> Seth stopped selling skis last season (or the one prior), as he said he couldn't complete with sales online, and was always eating the previous years inventory.



Correct. He was limited to whatever was left on hand (some nice skis...Dynastars and a few Scotts). Seth is a helpful and friendly guy to know is there with quality merchandise. I share the sympathetic feelings for what he'll now be dealing with, and wish him good luck in how he chooses to proceed...which I hope will be to repair, re-stock, and reopen.


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## Orca (Jan 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> The older man started yelling at me, that I cut him off, cut his wife off...and technically they were the uphill skiers.



I am sick of the "cut me off" excuse that uphill skiers use. Every skier has to expect that a downhill skier might change direction in an unpredictable way, especially since the downhill skier most often cannot see the uphill skier.

It used to be that on the towers of most ski areas were signs that presented the various rules of skiing. It's too bad they've gone away because there is a whole generation missing that basic education.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2020)

Orca said:


> I am sick of the "cut me off" excuse that uphill skiers use. Every skier has to expect that a downhill skier might change direction in an unpredictable way, especially since the downhill skier most often cannot see the uphill skier.



Additionally, Howie said the other skiers were stopped. Skier code says before starting you're supposed to look and not just go.  (I see people just start going all the time without looking first).


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Additionally, Howie said the other skiers were stopped. Skier code says before starting you're supposed to look and not just go.  (I see people just start going all the time without looking first).




We do have the code posted in a number of areas and have safety messages on the towers on Bravo and GH, but sounds like we could use more. This is NSAA safety month and we are trying raise awareness with a number of initiatives.


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I hope Jason does well there too. I always tell him he makes better pizza than most places here in NJ!
> 
> The Ramen place is great. I checked them out a few weeks ago. Not a lot of seats though (maybe ~20 including the 10 at the bar).



I too tried Ramen for the first time and enjoyed it a lot. Echo the sentiment about Jason. He did a great job for us in the GH for several years.


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## Orca (Jan 7, 2020)

I think I'm going to puke.

Top of West Hill station:


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2020)

fucking inch of rain at 48 degrees. brutal


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## Greg (Jan 7, 2020)

Bagging this weekend and rescheduled for 2/8-9...


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2020)

Update from the VSP Fire Inspector on the Infinite Sports fire:



> The origin of the fire was determined to be at a wooden countertop where several electronic devices were plugged in, to include a cash register, computer with monitor, power strips, and some lithium battery charging ports. The cause of the fire is undetermined but is directly related to some sort of electrical malfunction/issue at the wooden countertop. The entire inventory of the ski shop is considered a total loss and the dollar value amount is yet to be determined; there were no deaths or injuries. The business structure is salvageable but will need extensive cleanup from the heavy soot deposits and fire damage along with the melting of the electrical wires and any plastics/rubber. Many of the business in the building were already back in operation within a few hours while some may require some repairs before they open again.


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## MorningWoods (Jan 7, 2020)

Orca said:


> I think I'm going to puke.
> 
> Top of West Hill station:
> View attachment 25927



Is it too much to ask to have a winter that sticks around. And why do these rain events always seem to fall on the weekend and pour salt in the wound?! Sux 


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Is it too much to ask to have a winter that sticks around. And why do these rain events always seem to fall on the weekend and pour salt in the wound?! Sux



Seriously...I just love sitting at my desk at work seeing photos of constant snow and great conditions mid-week knowing that they will likely be screwed up by the time the weekend rolls around!


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## Base_consolidation (Jan 8, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Is it too much to ask to have a winter that sticks around. And why do these rain events always seem to fall on the weekend and pour salt in the wound?! Sux
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hoping this leads to base consolidation and not elimination [emoji53][emoji22]


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## machski (Jan 8, 2020)

It's New England, been happening as long as I can seriously remember (about '80 and on).  All it takes is the Jet to ridge west and there ALWAYS seems to be a strong Low tracking in when it does.

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## Hawk (Jan 8, 2020)

The long range looks like we might see a shift.  But who knows.  We have been due for a really crappy year.  I just hope it is not all of this year.


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## WinS (Jan 8, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The long range looks like we might see a shift.  But who knows.  We have been due for a really crappy year.  I just hope it is not all of this year.



I remember the winter that Claneil threw in the towel. Grass was growing under the Bravo lift on MLK weekend. We have always had January thaws but the multiple roller coasters this year are more than I remember. As we all know, forecasts more than some hours out can be very unreliable. That said our proprietary weather forecast is calling for “showers” during the day on Saturday and then rain overnight changing to snow. If there is no inversion the summits could see snow earlier. The forecast is calling for more “normal” temps and weather settling on next week. Stay tuned. At least we know the turns will be soft on Saturday.  Stein’s and some others might be a nice as the last time we had a day like what is forecasted for Saturday.


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## flakeydog (Jan 8, 2020)

Could certainly be better, but also worse... 

Granted this is Mt Mansfield but you can see we are below average this year.  For contrast, last year was great (upper line) but 2015-16 was definitely an off year (lower line).  

I added 2006-07 in there because that was the year of the infamous Valentine's day storm followed by the St Patrick's day storm after.  That season started out like this one and really ended up being "average" even though it is often cited as a great season.  We shall see what happens in Feb-March.  The long-range basically has most of the rest of January holding as it has been so far.


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## Newpylong (Jan 8, 2020)

machski said:


> It's New England, been happening as long as I can seriously remember (about '80 and on).  All it takes is the Jet to ridge west and there ALWAYS seems to be a strong Low tracking in when it does.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



This will be the 4th large scale rain/thaw event since the beginning of December - fairly exceptional I think if you laid it all out.


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## cdskier (Jan 8, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> I added 2006-07 in there because that was the year of the infamous Valentine's day storm followed by the St Patrick's day storm after.  That season started out like this one and really ended up being "average" even though it is often cited as a great season.  We shall see what happens in Feb-March.  The long-range basically has most of the rest of January holding as it has been so far.



I was actually just thinking of that season last night. Back then I was only doing about 1 weekend a year at SB (and it happened to be St Patrick's weekend that year). Even though I was skiing all over the place, I still closely followed SB's conditions and weather. MLK was when the weather really turned around and if I remember correctly, one key to great conditions after that was the fact that temps did not really go above freezing from MLK until shortly before the St Patrick's day storm. So that helped preserve conditions nicely. St Patrick's day weekend that year also happened to be the first time I ever skied Castlerock. I was obviously a bit spoiled by that experience!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 8, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> This will be the 4th large scale rain/thaw event since the beginning of December - fairly exceptional I think if you laid it all out.



...and if the long range models are anywhere near close, it may not be the last either...


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## HowieT2 (Jan 8, 2020)

my recollection of '06-'07 is that it started off much worse than this season has.  either way, it seems january is almost always up and down before things start to turn around super bowl weekend.  Then the snowpack gets going around presidents day vacation week.
I've been hedging my bets by going to bc the last 4 years in early to mid february.  While I miss being at sb consistently all season, the snow out there has been dreamy.


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## slatham (Jan 8, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> my recollection of '06-'07 is that it started off much worse than this season has.  either way, it seems january is almost always up and down before things start to turn around super bowl weekend.  Then the snowpack gets going around presidents day vacation week.
> I've been hedging my bets by going to bc the last 4 years in early to mid february.  While I miss being at sb consistently all season, the snow out there has been dreamy.



Yes, MLK was more like a well covered thanksgiving or a poor christmas, with many areas having little/no natural snow. Then at the end of the MLK weekend it flipped and pounded. But beforehand it looked it would be the worst season ever.


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## kingslug (Jan 8, 2020)

I remember the St pats storm. Met a bunch of people from Alta and JH on Chinclip at Stowe..why??..they were having having a crappy period..warm
Chinclip was knee deep due to the gondi being out the day before.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I remember the St pats storm. Met a bunch of people from Alta and JH on Chinclip at Stowe..why??..they were having having a crappy period..warm
> Chinclip was knee deep due to the gondi being out the day before.



and easter too.


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## ktrerotola (Jan 8, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> This will be the 4th large scale rain/thaw event since the beginning of December - fairly exceptional I think if you laid it all out.



We haven’t had windchill days yet either... and certainly saw them in December 2018 and 2017 as well as seasons prior. I’d take those over rain any day. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## tumbler (Jan 8, 2020)

If rain holds off until Saturday late afternoon and night I might still consider the trip.  I don't need to sit up there drinking and watching it rain the whole time, i can do that at home...


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2020)

ugh, fighting my way up to noVT for saturday only, after a warm up and likely freeze friday night into saturday, with sunday as a total washout. not gonna happen.

next weekend (MLK) my only free option is magic, and it will take a major turnaround next week to get them worthwhile. i suppose i could go pay up at smuggs or bolton if the skiing is worth it. 

i hate the prospect of missing two consecutive weekends in january. 

i usually go out west for mlk but gave my girlfriend and wallet a rest. regret. flights to seattle and denver are now $500 for friday - monday


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## kingslug (Jan 8, 2020)

Yup..Jan is a great time to escape..but it really has been a good early season..both south and north..
Ill ski in the rain localy if i have to sunday at Hunter..a warm afternoon there is ok. 
Seems like very few people here consider it an option..but its so close to many areas and is..steep..
I think sunday will be empty and if the sun comes out in the afternoon..it will be a good day


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## tumbler (Jan 9, 2020)

Forecast starting to change, Saturday not looking as bad.  Now overnight into Sunday morning


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Forecast starting to change, Saturday not looking as bad.  Now overnight into Sunday morning



Still having a hard time convincing myself it is worth a 5 hour drive for one day of spring skiing that may or may not involve rain and/or wind.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2020)

^yep, that. my eggs are all in the next weekend basket. i reserved a room near burke and one near magic. i can ski free/pre-paid at magic, but if conditions are seriously better at burke (they will be), i'll pay for a couple days. final decisions this time next week.


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## kingslug (Jan 9, 2020)

I'm seeing rain in all the forecasts for points North. Hunter reports possible early sprinkle then clearing up Sunday. Makes sense since the winds are coming from the South.


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2020)

Latest on the Infinite Sports fire...may be a few weeks before Mehurons reopens according to the article:

https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/13996-four-alarm-fire-closes-businesses


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 9, 2020)

Oh man that sucks.


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## ss20 (Jan 9, 2020)

Killington and places on north are around or over 100".  Everyone in the spine other than the southern mountains are nearly 90% open.  It's been rainy and this will obliterate much of the base but I struggle how anyone could call this season "poor" or "below average".

South of the Mass Pike it's been pretty tough.  Butternut and Wachusett not being 100% open this time of year is pretty rare.  Lots of places just haven't been able to make significant snow the past couple of weeks.


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Killington and places on north are around or over 100".  Everyone in the spine other than the southern mountains are nearly 90% open.  It's been rainy and this will obliterate much of the base but I struggle how anyone could call this season "poor" or "below average".



The amount of snow is largely irrelevant when it is coupled with multiple bouts of rain/warm/re-freeze scenarios. Snowfall totals at SB are probably actually right around or even slightly below average for this time of year (42" at the base and 73" at the summit as of this morning). But when you combine that with multiple rain events, the overall result is absolutely "below average".


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## jaybird (Jan 9, 2020)

Well .. wasn't below average on Lynx today.
Light crowd good surface everywhere.
The assault on Sigi is impressive.

These warm ups are beginning to piss me off.


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## skiur (Jan 10, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Killington and places on north are around or over 100".  Everyone in the spine other than the southern mountains are nearly 90% open.  It's been rainy and this will obliterate much of the base but I struggle how anyone could call this season "poor" or "below average".
> 
> South of the Mass Pike it's been pretty tough.  Butternut and Wachusett not being 100% open this time of year is pretty rare.  Lots of places just haven't been able to make significant snow the past couple of weeks.




How much of that 100" has melted away with the 4 or 5 thaws we have had this year?  Ullr is very upset with us this season.


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## Hawk (Jan 10, 2020)

So here is the reality check from what I saw in the woods last weekend.
 - Up high above 2000' - in the woods or off trail there is still a hard icy base about 1' to 1.5' thick.  There was about 4-5" of fluff on that and some more fell this week.
 - Anything under 2000' had varying amount of cover from 0 to about 4-5" depending on how much sun it got.
 - Obviously the trails that have snow making have a lot more snow in varying condition.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 10, 2020)

I managed 2 core shots in 2 days last weekend because I insisted on skiing trees nearly top-to-bottom. Oh well...tools not jewels. 

Looks like I'm gonna have to burn some PTO that I don't really have to catch a piece of the midweek action if mother nature wont give us a break from these freeze/thaw/rain cycles soon.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 10, 2020)

I managed 2 core shots in 2 days last weekend because I insisted on skiing trees nearly top-to-bottom. Oh well...tools not jewels. 

Looks like I'm gonna have to burn some PTO that I don't really have to catch a piece of the midweek action if mother nature wont give us a break from these freeze/thaw/rain cycles soon.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 10, 2020)

we accidentally wound up in moose run woods last weekend after skiing tumbler woods. i skied tumbler woods earlier in the day and the coverage was fine. went back with a friend later on and missed the turnout and wound up in moose run woods all the way down to the southbound run out. "dude's car got a little dinged up."


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## Hawk (Jan 10, 2020)

You mean you ended up on lower FIS.  Not sure what the dudes car has to do with it thou.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You mean you ended up on lower FIS.  Not sure what the dudes car has to do with it thou.



yes, lower fis thank you.

'dude's car got a little dinged up' is a quote from the big lebowski. after his car is shot up or torched (i cant remember). its a classic understatement of damage in regards to my own skis.


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## slatham (Jan 10, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Killington and places on north are around or over 100".  Everyone in the spine other than the southern mountains are nearly 90% open.  It's been rainy and this will obliterate much of the base but I struggle how anyone could call this season "poor" or "below average".
> 
> South of the Mass Pike it's been pretty tough.  Butternut and Wachusett not being 100% open this time of year is pretty rare.  Lots of places just haven't been able to make significant snow the past couple of weeks.



I struggle to understand how anyone could call this season "good" or "above average" from a snow conditions (vs. snowfall) perspective. The rain/thaws with no true dumps have not been pleasant. I am at "average" but unless the weather turns cold/snowy next week I will downgrade that assessment.

Now luckily from what I am seeing the pattern is looking to change so let's hope that verifies and holds for more than 5 days......


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 10, 2020)

as of now next sunday looks like a nice storm. hopefully it holds.


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## Hawk (Jan 10, 2020)

I am at "Suck" for this season.  it ranks as one of the 5 worst years that I can remember.  I ski every weekend rain or shine so my perspective comes from feeling the actual punishment on my body.  Maybe I am getting old.
I don't know what you guys are looking at but with not a lot of cold air around for the next week or so, storms are going to be marginal at best.  Maybe we luck out but that is looking at the bright side at best.
GFS latest Run:
http://coolwx.com/ptype/


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## slatham (Jan 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> as of now next sunday looks like a nice storm. hopefully it holds.



I do not have confidence in the models regarding a storm in over a weeks time (they have been very poor of late, even the Euro). I do have more confidence in the ensemble mean 500mb pattern that looks to be changing across the three models I follow (GFS, Euro, Canadian). How that translates into the particulars of sensible weather at ground level is TBD.

I do hope for a repeat of last years MLK storm though!


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2020)

slatham said:


> I struggle to understand how anyone could call this season "good" or "above average" from a snow conditions (vs. snowfall) perspective. The rain/thaws with no true dumps have not been pleasant. I am at "average" but unless the weather turns cold/snowy next week I will downgrade that assessment.
> 
> Now luckily from what I am seeing the pattern is looking to change so let's hope that verifies and holds for more than 5 days......



Exactly. Of course even a "below average" year can have great days. And I think there have been a number of those (particularly this week it seems when many of us were at work). So a few people here and there saying "well day xyz was great" does nothing to disprove that the season has only been "average" or even "below average" up to this point.

I'm hearing from multiple sources (even weather people here in NJ that don't care at all about skiing) that the pattern is changing soon. Hopefully that translates into some meaningful cold and snow for us skiers without anymore of these unpleasant events. Time will tell. 

This is the first year in a long time that I've had MLK day off from work, so I'm looking forward to hopefully having a good long weekend next weekend.


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## WinS (Jan 10, 2020)

Today was my 45th day out on the mountain, so I have seen most of the days this season.  I can certainly remember far worse starts to the year and some better ones. The one thing I can say is that every season is different.  There have been some really good days so far this year and many were midweek when many of you are not here, and there have been numerous mediocre and a few terrible days IMHO. Today, was incredibly windy but I got some nice early runs in at ME before heading into the office to work on some final transaction details.  I think early tomorrow might actually be recent with soft snow and rain building later in the day. But the winds may be wicked so there will most likely be windholds. It is a WSW wind. The heaviest rain seems to be tomorrow night into Sunday and it is no clear when the cold will settle in.  But our forecast does call for the cold to finally settle in next week and any precipitation will be snow through MLK weekend. We still have 110 days or more to go!


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## kingslug (Jan 10, 2020)

I had a very good time at SB last monday (30th)to wednesday...
Steins was particularly sporty..
Have to get a pass next year as i think im liking the Bush better than Stowe


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## Scruffy (Jan 10, 2020)

WinS said:


> Today was my 45th day out on the mountain, so I have seen most of the days this season.  I can certainly remember far worse starts to the year and some better ones. The one thing I can say is that every season is different.  There have been some really good days so far this year and many were midweek when many of you are not here, and there have been numerous mediocre and a few terrible days IMHO. Today, was incredibly windy but I got some nice early runs in at ME before heading into the office to work on some final transaction details.  I think early tomorrow might actually be recent with soft snow and rain building later in the day. But the winds may be wicked so there will most likely be windholds. It is a WSW wind. The heaviest rain seems to be tomorrow night into Sunday and it is no clear when the cold will settle in.  But our forecast does call for the cold to finally settle in next week and any precipitation will be snow through MLK weekend. We still have 110 days or more to go!



Agreed. I was at Sugarbush this past week and it skied amazing well for the rain events that happened in the past few weeks. Every day we got a few inches of fresh. Kudos to SB for not grooming everything to death; moguls galore--thank you. I skied Mt. Ellen Thursday and Exterminator was the run, and I had it all to myself. Everyone was on Bravo, a rock strewn, skied out mess, but Exterminator was big puffy bumps, with virtually no one there.


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## ducky (Jan 11, 2020)

Way behind Win with 34! Haven't made it to MRG or Stowe yet.

I noticed the snowmakers made large mounds near the main lifts presumably to rebuild if needed after the non-snow event tonight/Sunday. Good planning.


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2020)

ducky said:


> Way behind Win with 34! Haven't made it to MRG or Stowe yet.
> 
> I noticed the snowmakers made large mounds near the main lifts presumably to rebuild if needed after the non-snow event tonight/Sunday. Good planning.



Yes, we are going to need them. We have already lost quite a bit of depth,and we have another 30-36 or so hours until it cools down enough to begin making snow again.  So far today has been dry with the rain looking to come in early afternoon with the heaviest overnight. Sunday is likely to be better than tonight, but the winds will still be around.  It is howling from mid-mountain up.  Glad we have at least some of the lifts going at LP.  At ME the winds have shut down Inverness and GMX but Northridge and Summit are open so people are riding Sunny Q and hiking up Cracker jack to Northridge.  In my memory that is a first.  Southerly winds always have less of an impact on the ME summits.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2020)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Ski-mountains-prepare-for-messy-forecast-566914851.html


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## tumbler (Jan 12, 2020)

Sugarbush app question- when they put up important information like lifts on windhold, after the first line a black box blocks the rest of the text.  Does anyone get this also?  I have the most updated version.


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## baseconsolidation (Jan 12, 2020)

ducky said:


> Way behind Win with 34! Haven't made it to MRG or Stowe yet.
> 
> I noticed the snowmakers made large mounds near the main lifts presumably to rebuild if needed after the non-snow event tonight/Sunday. Good planning.



Steins was a blast yesterday, the grift was great, and there’s still snow at the top as the temp is dropping below freezing. Good luck with the closing and resurfacing this week, win! Looking forward to the annual mlk weekend snowstorm and fireworks, onward and upward...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ducky (Jan 12, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Sugarbush app question- when they put up important information like lifts on windhold, after the first line a black box blocks the rest of the text.  Does anyone get this also?  I have the most updated version.



Works fine on my iPhone X, no black boxes. In the am lifts are marked as Windhold but after lunch they are marked as closed, once the decision has been made. Funny though, on my MacBook the webcams will not go live when double-clicked but will on the iPhone, so  not entirely Apple friendly.

Just four runs today; Pushover, Hotshot, SF, Snowball. Not terrible but the natural snow has gone for now. Some skimo kids said Steins was great but I could hear it from the lift so stayed away. Starting to snow at my house now right after a big rainbow and blowing like crazy.


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2020)

ducky said:


> Works fine on my iPhone X, no black boxes. In the am lifts are marked as Windhold but after lunch they are marked as closed, once the decision has been made. Funny though, on my MacBook the webcams will not go live when double-clicked but will on the iPhone, so  not entirely Apple friendly.



No black box for me either on my old iPhone 7. The lift status page for me never shows holds correctly though. If a lift is on hold, it shows the status for that lift as "unknown" and it shows up in grey. Super Bravo and GMX both show that way right now on the app for me.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 12, 2020)

As usual I went first thing just a few core at VHouse  chute man and his wife  and another friend  went down the only groomed swath if you got off it was glazed snoballl fling did two runs then went in .patrol had   breakfast meet and greet they invited me in I had French toast and coffee great guys for sure I am a former patrol from both sugarbush and mrg  some did not know that .after watching the rainbow   I then caught gate house for three sick groomed   spring runs then I had a lesson I left after that today was day40 I’m hoping for a big Blizzard because it’s going to be hard to catch up on a scale of1-10 I give this season a   3.5 so far


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## ducky (Jan 12, 2020)

Just got a nice signed letter in the mail from Win with a "Sugarbush 100 Days" sticker for last season. Nice touch. Love this place. Thanks, Win.


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## pinnoke (Jan 12, 2020)

VERY NICE Ducky! Well-earned. Hope for the best for 19/20!


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 13, 2020)

That's awesome! Certainly something to aspire too!!

I cracked 30 days for the first time ever last year. Looking to hit 40 this year with 30 at SB. Don't think I'll be able to get much higher than that until I own my own place or retire in 35 years lol.


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## baseconsolidation (Jan 14, 2020)

Anyone know how the upper mountain coverage (trails/trees) fared after the thaw? Is there something to build on and spread crowds out this weekend? 

Forecast looks promising!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hawk (Jan 14, 2020)

I would say that the coverage all over up top was sketchy at best last weekend.  Not sure of the total damage because the lifts were all shut down up there.  Someone that skied this week will have to answer.


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## Orca (Jan 14, 2020)

Looks like maybe 7-8 inches spread over the next three days, which is surely a turn for the better.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2020)

8 inches by thursday, with a 6-12" sat-sun. i'm cautiously optimistic.


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## cdskier (Jan 14, 2020)

Looks like the closing of the sale has been completed...

https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/01/14/sugarbush-closing


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Looks like the closing of the sale has been completed...
> 
> https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/01/14/sugarbush-closing



Just got this:



> Dear Sugarbush Community Member,
> 
> Today, Sugarbush officially became a member of the Alterra Mountain Company family.
> 
> ...


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## ducky (Jan 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I would say that the coverage all over up top was sketchy at best last weekend.  Not sure of the total damage because the lifts were all shut down up there.  Someone that skied this week will have to answer.



Ripcord and Jester were groomed today. It is coming back. 1-3 forecast Weds night and 2-4 on Thursday with more maybe Sat afternoon.

I could not tell that the mountain is now owned by Alterra. 

First pic was The Mall from Sunday, the other is from HG today.


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## AbominableSnowman (Jan 14, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ripcord and Jester were groomed today. It is coming back. 1-3 forecast Weds night and 2-4 on Thursday with more maybe Sat afternoon.
> 
> I could not tell that the mountain is now owned by Alterra.
> 
> First pic was The Mall from Sunday, the other is from HG today.



Wow, that second picture is encouraging!

On a different note, kudos to two lifties at Gatehouse for their actions this past weekend:
(1) first liftie did a *great* job proactively grouping people together down the lift lines, which paid off on Saturday when Super Bravo was shut down due to wind
(2) second liftie proactively stepped up and had groups of four singles grouped and alternated into the rest of the groups in the lift line - which helped keep the singles line from getting excessively long and impeding traffic around the lift corral

Nice job!  Hope those two set an example for the upcoming weekend (and MLK weekend is typically a nightmare at Sugarbush around the base lifts)!

It would be great, too, if the lifties were to proactively go down the singles line and ask skiers to angle their skis a bit to allow traffic to flow through the singles line more easily.  That used to happen when ASC owned Sugarbush, and it seemed to work well.  [And yes, I agree that skiers should be able to figure it out on their own, yet typically that does not seem to happen there].


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2020)

i wasn't going to post this, but your post commending sugarbush lifties made this more apropos...

i had a different experience with sugarbush lifties the weekend before last. mainly, they werent cleaning the half inch of snow off of any of the chairs. this was on gmx, and the small lift by the park, at mt ellen. so each time i took the chair, i had to kind of anticipate it and brush the snow off so the back of my legs wouldnt freeze. not a big deal, and not even worth posting but for your post.


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## AbominableSnowman (Jan 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i wasn't going to post this, but your post commending sugarbush lifties made this more apropos...
> 
> i had a different experience with sugarbush lifties the weekend before last. mainly, they werent cleaning the half inch of snow off of any of the chairs. this was on gmx, and the small lift by the park, at mt ellen. so each time i took the chair, i had to kind of anticipate it and brush the snow off so the back of my legs wouldnt freeze. not a big deal, and not even worth posting but for your post.



Just for the sake of clarity and accuracy, I did specify the lifties at Gatehouse.   No comment on observations at other lifts there....


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## Scruffy (Jan 14, 2020)

ducky said:


> First pic was The Mall from Sunday, the other is from HG today.



Wow... I skied the Mall last Tues, and Wed. :-o  They lost a lot. Hoping for a quick recovery,


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2020)

the weds-thurs storm that was just a little guy is now a big guy. sat-sun remains a big guy. it could get good.


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## tumbler (Jan 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i wasn't going to post this, but your post commending sugarbush lifties made this more apropos...
> 
> i had a different experience with sugarbush lifties the weekend before last. mainly, they werent cleaning the half inch of snow off of any of the chairs. this was on gmx, and the small lift by the park, at mt ellen. so each time i took the chair, i had to kind of anticipate it and brush the snow off so the back of my legs wouldnt freeze. not a big deal, and not even worth posting but for your post.



I had the same thing at VH that weekend while three lifties sat outside.  One eventually got a broom and did a tiny bit of clearing.  The other was on that Sunday seats were coming into Bravo flipped up from the wind that the liftie wasn't paying attention to.  The chair is slow enough through the terminal that we could flip it down before sitting.  No biggie.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2020)

not flipping the seats down kind of is a biggie. you were aware, but plenty of people arent, and that could really fuck you up. i was pretty unimpressed with the lifties when i was there. i get it, its a peanuts hourly wage, generally being worked by a south american kid on a work visa, but these are the employees who guests interact with the most. they weren't friendly (not a big deal), but they also werent doing the basic tasks of their job (bigger deal). they just sat inside every time i saw them. one of them was constantly scanning the ipad. so they are looking for pass poachers but dont care to clean the chairs or flip down the seats.


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## Greg (Jan 14, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Wow... I skied the Mall last Tues, and Wed. :-o  They lost a lot. Hoping for a quick recovery,



Shocking. You could see it happen over the weekend on the webcams. Hopefully we're past it for now!


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## Orca (Jan 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the weds-thurs storm that was just a little guy is now a big guy. sat-sun remains a big guy. it could get good.



I am seeing the predicted snow totals retreating a bit


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## crazy (Jan 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> I am seeing the predicted snow totals retreating a bit



Sugarbush is now forecast to 2-4" Wednesday night and 3-7" during the day on Thursday, while they are only supposed to get 2-6" now on Saturday night. Thursday will be the better powder day, except that there isn't much of a base for the natural trails.

But we're still a few days out. Those numbers could go back up, or they could keep going down. Who knows.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 15, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

What happened to roger ? Haven’t seen him in a while ?

Big dust  on crust holiday  weekend the base is like early November   Will there be hiking to castle rock? Can’t see how ,but this year standards are really low 
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## baseconsolidation (Jan 15, 2020)

Thanks for the report ducky!


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## ducky (Jan 15, 2020)

Improving conditions. Today's groomers were pretty nice if a bit glazed down low. Got warm and sticky below 2000' by lunchtime. Mountain Ops have been resurfacing but stopped due to temps and guns are set up all over inc Murphy's, Birdland, Jester, Lower OG just waiting for the super cold coming Friday, if not sooner. We'll get a few inches tonight and more during the day Thursday. Optimistic.

This pic looking up Birdland around 1:00.


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## smac75 (Jan 15, 2020)

Question for Win - were blazer groups asked to refrain or cut back on using ski school lanes at the lifts?  Were there  complaints?


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i wasn't going to post this, but your post commending sugarbush lifties made this more apropos...
> 
> i had a different experience with sugarbush lifties the weekend before last. mainly, they werent cleaning the half inch of snow off of any of the chairs. this was on gmx, and the small lift by the park, at mt ellen. so each time i took the chair, i had to kind of anticipate it and brush the snow off so the back of my legs wouldnt freeze. not a big deal, and not even worth posting but for your post.




Good comment. We will speak to them about this


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2020)

smac75 said:


> Question for Win - were blazer groups asked to refrain or cut back on using ski school lanes at the lifts?  Were there  complaints?




No.


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2020)

Looks like some good natural snow tonight and also temps will allow snowmaking to get back on. At LP we will be on Murphy’s, Birdland and Stein’s and Whichway and Sugar Run at ME. Thursday and Friday have really cold temps. More snow this weekend, so we should be vastly improved over last weekend. Taking the red eye back from Squaw where the NSAA Board meeting and winter shoe was held. They are getting dumped on tomorrow so hopefully this continues East.


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## smac75 (Jan 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> No.



Glad to hear it. Thanks!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> Good comment. We will speak to them about this



thanks win. i was with a buddy who doesnt read/post here. and i jokingly said something to the effect of "oh boy you better believe win is gonna hear about this". always appreciate your participation here. thanks. enjoy the new snow.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 16, 2020)

Flakes still flying but no real accumulation on the snow stake since they cleared off the 6" that fell overnight this morning. Mad River is showing close to 10" on their cam but I think there may be some drifting driving that number up a bit. Most of the projections seem to be in the 5"+ neighborhood for Sat/Sun. Keep the snow dances going!


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## Orca (Jan 16, 2020)

Cheddar at SB


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 16, 2020)

reporter should learn how to pronounce the place she is talking about. its the nev-el-eee. not the nev-elle. the nevele (eleven backwards for its 11 original owners) was not really a "ski resort". it was a catskills borscht belt spot that happened to have a lift and a few trails. it was a 4-season resort that had golf, tennis, a nice pool compound, and two hotels on the property (the fallsview was next door). i wouldn't attribute the downfall of the nevele to ski economics. the whole catskills borscht belt thing peaked in the mid 20th century and all of those places shuttered as people (mainly nyc and suburbs jewish people who were the clientele for these places) started using airplanes to travel more. 

i went to summer camp 20 min away from the nevele and my parents would stay there every summer for visiting day weekend and they would take us out of camp and to the hotel pools. the fallsview next door was the site for a lot of youth group convention things i attended in middle and high school. i got to third base for the first time at the fallsview, ohhh yea. 

i'm going to go back and watch the remaining 7 min of the video now, but i had to post when she called it the nev-elle.


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## pinnoke (Jan 16, 2020)

A good reminder of the times we're in, in regards to the health of our beloved sport. I had to do a double-take right from the start, with the mispronunciation of the Nevele Resort (where I skied for the first time in my life approx. 57 years ago, before graduating to Hunter, Bellayre, and others). It's pronounced Ne-ve-lee, and is the number eleven spelled backwards...there were 11 brothers or family members involved in the creation of this wonderful Catskills relic, mentioned in the same breath as The Concord, Grossingers, Kutchers, etc. In any event, I'm certainly rooting for Alterra, Vail, and other savvy groups to keep the sport attractive to new and old skiers/riders alike.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 16, 2020)

lol. ya, what he said.

we did nevele for camp visiting day, but really we were a kutschers family. so many great memories at kutschers. they opened a trendy "new-jewish" food restaurant in tribeca a few years ago. t'was a fail. 

the concord site is now the big casino.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 16, 2020)

Orca said:


> Cheddar at SB



I just watched up until Win's first segment where he discusses skier visits being flat and future challenges.

Then I remembered they have a walk-up ticket price of $129-$139 for the main ski area (Lincoln Peak).

Nobody's fault but the people setting these absurd rates. I can't afford that and if I wasn't so savvy and dedicated I'd be skiing much less on account of that too. It definitely limits my Sugarbush visits, although I'm hoping to make use of Mt Ellen $30 Thursday pretty soon.


I bet Six Flags New England and the Big E would see their visits drop too if they started charging triple digit admissions.


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## JimG. (Jan 16, 2020)

My first day of skiing was at The Concord December 1962. It was my father's first day too.

My mom was already an avid skier.


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## TyWebb (Jan 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> reporter should learn how to pronounce the place she is talking about. its the nev-el-eee. not the nev-elle. the nevele (eleven backwards for its 11 original owners) was not really a "ski resort". it was a catskills borscht belt spot that happened to have a lift and a few trails. it was a 4-season resort that had golf, tennis, a nice pool compound, and two hotels on the property (the fallsview was next door). i wouldn't attribute the downfall of the nevele to ski economics. the whole catskills borscht belt thing peaked in the mid 20th century and all of those places shuttered as people (mainly nyc and suburbs jewish people who were the clientele for these places) started using airplanes to travel more.
> 
> i went to summer camp 20 min away from the nevele and my parents would stay there every summer for visiting day weekend and they would take us out of camp and to the hotel pools. the fallsview next door was the site for a lot of youth group convention things i attended in middle and high school. i got to third base for the first time at the fallsview, ohhh yea.
> 
> i'm going to go back and watch the remaining 7 min of the video now, but i had to post when she called it the nev-elle.


Born in Brooklyn (1971) and b4 my parents moved us to LI ... spent a few summers @ one of the borscht belt bungalow colonies.  My summer camp was in the Poconos.   

As far as the video goes ... She hit on some good points and as with most luxuries, it all comes down to economics.  For most 20'somethings, if you're just getting into skiing entry costs are just to high.  They have less disposable income for various reasons and trying out a cold weather hobby/trip is not very high on their list.  As she wrote, if you're a first time skier .. clothing, beginner package with lessons and rentals, food, transport etc .. gets expensive.  If you grew up skiing and with all the mega-pass options it has become more affordable.

My parents did not ski but I got introduced to the sport by a friend whose family did.  He persuaded me join the HS ski club with him and once I became an advance beginner I'd tag along with his fam on many trips.  I'd only have to pay for lift and food as they always rented a home for the season.

I will say for parents with young children I never found it too expensive in Pa and other states. There are a ton of elementary school specials and discounts.  I've utilized the 3rd, 4th and 5th grade passes in Pa and VT.  I think next year will be my first venture into the mega pass as my youngest is in 6th now.  Have some coupons but still more $$$ the I've been spending.  Also hoping to go out west next year as well so the mega pass will be the way to go.  

// Hope one of them purchases Blue Mt outside of Allentown as that would be great for us.


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## ducky (Jan 16, 2020)

The point of high walk-up rates is to drive people to buy a multi-mountain season pass. It's the business model. Epic and Ikon are under $700 if you buy early, and there's always the SB Value Pass around $500. Also, cheaper if you buy a day pass online, even in the parking lot on your phone. For me as a passholder, I'm at day 38, or about $18/day and it's only mid-Jan. Hoping to get that under $6/day by April. 

Now back to the weather: Ripcord and OG were very tasty today, probably 6" overall and it was dumping right up to 4:00. Guns were on all over in preparation for MLK weekend. No woods back yet but some were doing the bike paths today.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 16, 2020)

ducky said:


> The point of high walk-up rates is to drive people to buy a multi-mountain season pass. It's the business model.



So just admit the business model is killing new skier visits instead of acting mystified by it?


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## ducky (Jan 16, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> So just admit the business model is killing new skier visits instead of acting mystified by it?



For me, the season pass rate went down $350 since Vail bought Stowe and SB followed suit with reduced season pass pricing. Not sure I know anyone who buys day tickets.


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## ss20 (Jan 16, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> So just admit the business model is killing new skier visits instead of acting mystified by it?



BenediztGomez is that you?  

Don't worry about growing skiing, the Asian-Invasion is happening.  Skiing is becoming huge in China.  I see it in the lessons I teach- there's substantially more Asian kids (and some adults) now than when I started just six years ago.  Many have trickled up to Mount Snow I see as well.


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## Orca (Jan 16, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Then I remembered they have a walk-up ticket price of $129-$139 for the main ski area (Lincoln Peak).



Yes, I get that the day rate is a means to force skiers into passes that commit the customer to a substantial fixed expenditure (subscription model with revenue known before start of season). However, there are people that buy day tickets that are pushed away. Specific example: I refuse to invite friends to SB because I'd be obligating that person to an expenditure that I know is likely to prove a bad value.


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## ducky (Jan 16, 2020)

Orca said:


> Yes, I get that the day rate is a means to force skiers into passes that commit the customer to a substantial fixed expenditure (subscription model with revenue known before start of season). However, there are people that buy day tickets that are pushed away. Specific example: I refuse to invite friends to SB because I'd be obligating that person to an expenditure that I know is likely to prove a bad value.



Agreed. Stowe does offer 10 buddy tickets with the Epic and Epic Local - 1/2 price of the posted day rate. Not sure if Ikon does the same. Our friends that visit at least don't pay for lodging plus I usually have some vouchers.

I'm not saying the sport is affordable, just more so if you buy a pass and also have the option to ski multiple resorts. It is also more affordable than three years ago.

SB does a bunch to get young people interested starting with free skiing for the local elementary schools on certain days. Additionally, high school students with good grades get free passes. The mountain was full of kids today with busses from Warren and Fayston schools. Don't forget the For20s and For30s passes. We bought our son the For20s for $329 and he got 11 days out of it over Christmas.


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## Howitzer (Jan 16, 2020)

ducky said:


> Agreed. Stowe does offer 10 buddy tickets with the Epic and Epic Local - 1/2 price of the posted day rate. Not sure if Ikon does the same. Our friends that visit at least don't pay for lodging plus I usually have some vouchers.
> 
> I'm not saying the sport is affordable, just more so if you buy a pass and also have the option to ski multiple resorts. It is also more affordable than three years ago.
> 
> SB does a bunch to get young people interested starting with free skiing for the local elementary schools on certain days. Additionally, high school students with good grades get free passes. The mountain was full of kids today with busses from Warren and Fayston schools. Don't forget the For20s and For30s passes. We bought our son the For20s for $329 and he got 11 days out of it over Christmas.



The Ikon Pass comes with 10 Friends and Family tickets and the Ikon Base Pass comes with 8 Friends and Family tickets (with holiday restrictions) for 25% off the 1-day window rate. 

One interesting thing of note is there is no senior discount on the Ikon or Ikon Base Pass.


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2020)

The Sugarbush season pass itself also this year comes with 5* "Ski with me" tickets which give 25% off the 1 day window rate as well. (Can't remember whether it did last year or not).

And if you do anticipate having friends up, you could always pick up a quad pack (or 2) in the fall. I know some pass-holders do that. Of course if friends don't come for some reason, then you're out the money or need to find someone that needs tickets!

*Or 10 if you are a repeat passholder that purchased during the extra early "Loyalty passholder" timeframe


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## machski (Jan 16, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> So just admit the business model is killing new skier visits instead of acting mystified by it?


IDK, the new covered carpets at SR have been extremely busy and packed this season.

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## djd66 (Jan 16, 2020)

she lost me when she said snowfall was down 40% out west,... that is complete BS


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## jaybird (Jan 16, 2020)

Welcome back from a momentous trip for you. We missed you !
Great recovery job by your team this week ! 

The chair seats are just fine .. real Vermonters can handle it


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## MorningWoods (Jan 16, 2020)

djd66 said:


> she lost me when she said snowfall was down 40% out west,... that is complete BS



I can tell you one thing impacting young kids skiing is the club sport phenomenon.  Club soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, basketball, baseball. Goes on all year long and is a major impact on people’s ability to get away for weekends. Messes with summer businesses as well. Gets worse as kids get older. 


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## TyWebb (Jan 16, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> I can tell you one thing impacting young kids skiing is the club sport phenomenon.  Club soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, basketball, baseball. Goes on all year long and is a major impact on people’s ability to get away for weekends. Messes with summer businesses as well. Gets worse as kids get older.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So true.  My son plays 3 sports but footie is his big one and he goes 10 months a year.  I’d do all 3 days this weekend but Sat his team travels to Harrisburg for an indoor tourney.  Missed many Sats past few years but he’s still at the age where I have no problem heading up to Vt. to ski on a Sun, Mon and Tues and bring any school work with us to do in the evening.


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2020)

jaybird said:


> Welcome back from a momentous trip for you. We missed you !
> Great recovery job by your team this week !
> 
> The chair seats are just fine .. real Vermonters can handle it



Thanks. If I hadn’t taken the red eye, I would have been out today but will be first thing in Friday. The Cheddar piece hit on some good points  but doesn’t tell the full story. People love to say  how expensive skiing is but look at the cost of going to Disney or a professional sports game! The window rate is very misleading and most people do not purchase this way any more. They are purchasing passes, products like our Quad Pack or purchasing ahead on time online at a much lower rate.  So when you look at the average yield per day it is a big discount to the window rate. Consumers are smart. Chris Diamond is his new book says that we are entering a new era which will be great for the ski industry. I agree with him.


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> Thanks. If I hadn’t taken the red eye, I would have been out today but will be first thing in Friday. The Cheddar piece hit on some good points  but doesn’t tell the full story. People love to say  how expensive skiing is but look at the cost of going to Disney or a professional sports game! The window rate is very misleading and most people do not purchase this way any more. They are purchasing passes, products like our Quad Pack or purchasing ahead on time online at a much lower rate.  So when you look at the average yield per day it is a big discount to the window rate. Consumers are smart. Chris Diamond is his new book says that we are entering a new era which will be great for the ski industry. I agree with him.



I need to finish that book...I have only 2 or 3 chapters left to go...

Very worthwhile read for probably almost anyone on this board.


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## mister moose (Jan 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> The window rate is very misleading and most people do not purchase this way any more. They are purchasing passes, products like our Quad Pack or purchasing ahead on time online at a much lower rate.  So when you look at the average yield per day it is a big discount to the window rate. Consumers are smart. Chris Diamond is his new book says that we are entering a new era which will be great for the ski industry. I agree with him.



Win - 

Have you ever seen the industry, particularly New England,  discuss how many skiers learn at feeder hills vs larger resorts?

With respect to the dismal retention rate you mentioned, I see a lot of casual experimenters giving it a try at the resort, like you might try tubing, a zip line, or get a ride on a horse drawn sleigh.  It's one activity of many on a Vermont weekend for someone who has no long term interest, doesn't like the cold, is not involved in any other outdoor activity whatsoever, any part of the year.  The likelihood of retention on that person is very low right out of the gate.  For those people a ski lesson is a day's diversion, nothing more.  And how does the industry measure retention if they spend their first lesson with you and their second and third closer to home in NJ?   I bet the real number is higher than what you measure.

I wonder what the retention rate is on kids that were introduced to skiing by their parents.  Or High School kids that take more than one bus trip to a resort.  Or with kids that go to a feeder hill after school once a week for 6 weeks?


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## Orca (Jan 16, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The Sugarbush season pass itself also this year comes with 5* "Ski with me" tickets which give 25% off the 1 day window rate as well. (Can't remember whether it did last year or not).
> 
> And if you do anticipate having friends up, you could always pick up a quad pack (or 2) in the fall. I know some pass-holders do that. Of course if friends don't come for some reason, then you're out the money or need to find someone that needs tickets!
> 
> *Or 10 if you are a repeat passholder that purchased during the extra early "Loyalty passholder" timeframe



I am an SB passholder. Didn't know about this benefit.


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## WinS (Jan 16, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Win -
> 
> Have you ever seen the industry, particularly New England,  discuss how many skiers learn at feeder hills vs larger resorts?
> 
> ...




I have not,  but I am confident that the smaller feeder hills are incredibly important for all of us and many of them are doing well. In our back yard Cochran’s and Bolton are great examples. Wachusett in MA is another good example that has a great school program. If they are smart and well run smaller areas can afford to  make the necessary investments to remain sustainable. I am very positive about the new indoor ski areain the NJ Meadow lands. They expect 650,000 visits with 2/3rds first timers. One thing the industry is focused on and unified on is growing and maintaining first timers. 

On thing the Cheddar prodcast did not include was the fact that we Baby Boomers are aging, but we are skiing more and have  a “Peter Pan” complex so we are not going away as fast as some thought.

Ps: Thanks for the nice Killington Zone comments.


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## Orca (Jan 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> The window rate is very misleading and most people do not purchase this way any more. They are purchasing passes, products like our Quad Pack or purchasing ahead on time online at a much lower rate.



But some do pay the window rate! And it's a pretty tough one at that. Pre-purchasing online or via Quad pack isn't necessarily a better deal. The ski area is not in the business of arbitrarily rewarding the virtue of those that plan ahead. They know pre-purchasing shifts the risk of the product going sour to the purchaser. The ski area realizes that selling at a discount works because some of those tickets are never used, or are used on ski days that would otherwise be "unattractive". Nothing comes for free and discounts aren't arbitrary. Win, you know this. Consumers who have eaten Quad Pack tickets (like me) know this too.


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2020)

Orca said:


> I am an SB passholder. Didn't know about this benefit.



The benefits are linked from the Season Pass page on the SB website:
https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/season-passes/pass-benefits/


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## mikec142 (Jan 16, 2020)

I’ll happily take a quad pack off someone’s hands.  Already burned thru most of mine.


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## Orca (Jan 17, 2020)

How is it that at 6a today Mad River is claiming 14-16 inches in the last 48 hours, but Sugarbush is claiming only 4-5 in the same 48 hours?

Edit: Never mind. I think this morning's Sugarbush snow report is ahead of its snow total table. They appear not to have been updated at the same time.

At least it is good news!!!!!


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## WinS (Jan 17, 2020)

Orca said:


> How is it that at 6a today Mad River is claiming 14-16 inches in the last 48 hours, but Sugarbush is claiming only 4-5 in the same 48 hours?



Not sure where you  saw that. Skivermont.com had them at 4”. The only mountain showing a big difference from us was Stowe at 11”.


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## WinS (Jan 17, 2020)

Orca said:


> But some do pay the window rate! And it's a pretty tough one at that. Pre-purchasing online or via Quad pack isn't necessarily a better deal. The ski area is not in the business of arbitrarily rewarding the virtue of those that plan ahead. They know pre-purchasing shifts the risk of the product going sour to the purchaser. The ski area realizes that selling at a discount works because some of those tickets are never used, or are used on ski days that would otherwise be "unattractive". Nothing comes for free and discounts aren't arbitrary. Win, you know this. Consumers who have eaten Quad Pack tickets (like me) know this too.



Orcsa, you are correct that some do not get to use all four but it isn’t a large percentage and we prefer to have them fully utilized. As you know, they are about a 50% discount, have no blackouts and are fully transferable, so I do think they are a very good deal for both of us.


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## Hawk (Jan 17, 2020)

This whole argument about the price of walk up day tickets is getting old.  I really do not care at all.  I have been buying a season pass for the better part of 33 years and have never had my daily cost go over $25 a day.  If you are not savvy enough to find a deal that suits you then tough.  Personally I hope skier visits go down so the crowds will go away. But what irks me the most is people think is it some kind of right or responsibility of the business owners to provide an inexpensive ticket to people.  it is not and guess what, skiing is a very expensive operation for these people.  I have zero issues with the pricing structure right now.  It is is actually cheaper for me to ski right now then in the past.  Well except for when I did college passes.


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## Los (Jan 17, 2020)

WinS said:


> Not sure where you  saw that. Skivermont.com had them at 4”. The only mountain showing a big difference from us was Stowe at 11”.



Win - MRG is indeed reporting 14-16 inches in the last 48 hours. From their 1/17/20 snow report:


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## mrvpilgrim (Jan 17, 2020)

I believe that I have brought this up before but Sugarbush has a $25 pass good for the magic carpet and village chair that is always available. There is no need for first timers to be buying full mountain tickets


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## Greg (Jan 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This whole argument about the price of walk up day tickets is getting old.  I really do not care at all.  I have been buying a season pass for the better part of 33 years and have never had my daily cost go over $25 a day.  If you are not savvy enough to find a deal that suits you then tough.  Personally I hope skier visits go down so the crowds will go away. But what irks me the most is people think is it some kind of right or responsibility of the business owners to provide an inexpensive ticket to people.  it is not and guess what, skiing is a very expensive operation for these people.  I have zero issues with the pricing structure right now.  It is is actually cheaper for me to ski right now then in the past.  Well except for when I did college passes.



Well said. I won't get down to $25 a day anytime soon, but I generally find value in what I pay per day for skiing, especially at a place like Sugarbush where, to me, the terrain is unmatched.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> But what irks me the most is people think is it some kind of right or responsibility of the business owners to provide an inexpensive ticket to people.  it is not and guess what, skiing is a very expensive operation for these people.



Yea...it also pisses me off when people think SB day ticket prices should be substantially lower than their neighbors for some reason. The "I'm not going to SB and going to go elsewhere due to high ticket prices at SB" argument doesn't hold water with me. Where are they going instead? K is nearly the same price. Stowe we know is higher. Sure they can go to Bolton and pay less, but it is also a much smaller resort. People that expect to pay Bolton prices at a major resort like SB are just living in fantasy land.


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## Greg (Jan 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yea...it also pisses me off when people think SB day ticket prices should be substantially lower than their neighbors for some reason. The "I'm not going to SB and going to go elsewhere due to high ticket prices at SB" argument doesn't hold water with me. Where are they going instead? K is nearly the same price. Stowe we know is higher. Sure they can go to Bolton and pay less, but it is also a much smaller resort. People that expect to pay Bolton prices at a major resort like SB are just living in fantasy land.



I went to Stowe for the first time last season and paid $250 for an advanced online two-day ticket. The whole time I was there, I thought to myself how much of a better value Sugarbush is. Better terrain than both Stowe and Killington in my opinion.


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2020)

The ticket window price horse is beaten, dead and still being beaten.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 17, 2020)

ducky said:


> Don't forget the For20s and For30s passes. We bought our son the For20s for $329 and he got 11 days out of it over Christmas.



Amen to this. I started skiing SB exclusively after graduating college thanks to the For20's pass. Did many a 4:30am hungover Saturday wake up for day-trips from Boston when we were too broke to afford lodging. I don't think I would be a ~30 day per year skier if not not for that pass. It was the conduit to me falling in love w/ the Valley as a whole -- now coming up in the off-season to MTB and fly fish, and also patronizing the local businesses, restaurants, and breweries every weekend I'm up. I even met my fiance on the Summit Chair at Ellen 5 years ago. We've both skied SB every year since graduating college thanks to that pass; even during a 2 year stretch when living in TX b/c it was possible to come up and get good days in over the Xmas-New Year stretch. Now we're about to age out of For20's but are looking to buy a condo in the next year or 2 (once I make back those wedding bills lol). I'd go as far as saying that the affordable pass options have had an outsized impact on the economy of the Valley as a whole because I am sure there are many others in my shoes who have become repeat visitors, purchased real estate and become tax payers, etc. 

I sincerely hope For20's and For30's stick around w/ Alterra.


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Amen to this. I started skiing SB exclusively after graduating college thanks to the For20's pass. Did many a 4:30am hungover Saturday wake up for day-trips from Boston when we were too broke to afford lodging. I don't think I would be a ~30 day per year skier if not not for that pass. It was the conduit to me falling in love w/ the Valley as a whole -- now coming up in the off-season to MTB and fly fish, and also patronizing the local businesses, restaurants, and breweries every weekend I'm up. I even met my fiance on the Summit Chair at Ellen 5 years ago. We've both skied SB every year since graduating college thanks to that pass; even during a 2 year stretch when living in TX b/c it was possible to come up and get good days in over the Xmas-New Year stretch. Now we're about to age out of For20's but are looking to buy a condo in the next year or 2 (once I make back those wedding bills lol). I'd go as far as saying that the affordable pass options have had an outsized impact on the economy of the Valley as a whole because I am sure there are many others in my shoes who have become repeat visitors, purchased real estate and become tax payers, etc.
> 
> I sincerely hope For20's and For30's stick around w/ Alterra.



Similar situation here. I'm a bit older (getting close to aging out of the For 30s pass!), but the For 20s pass the first year it was offered was what drove me to decide to buy a condo in the valley (I already loved SB and the valley at that point, but an extremely affordable pass is what gave me the push to say "hey, maybe I should buy something up here and make it my home mountain" . I went from a 3 or 4 day a year SB skier prior to that For 20s pass coming out to a 40+ day a year skier now that spends a considerable amount of time (and money) in the valley.


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## Orca (Jan 17, 2020)

Look, I have a season pass and have for many years. I haven't bought a window price day ticket at Sugarbush in at least a decade. The whole window rate discussion is related to its relative expense as related to other ways of acquiring a day's (or a season's) access to the mountain. It is not helpful for pass holders to wave around that they are only paying $10 a day because they ski so much, etc. It comes across as a little smug and self-serving; it is a bit like saying "hey, I've got mine, so I don't give a crap about the casual skier". Well, $10 or $25 as an average source of revenue all the skier days would put SB out of business fast, so you are getting a subsidy if your costs are that low. So have some tolerance for those that might not like the idea of anyone paying $129 for a day.

I get it too that SB is aligned with the greater industry in charging much increased window rates. I am not asking for SB to atone for the industry trend. I just lament that the trend is a little ugly for the casual skier.


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## ducky (Jan 17, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I even met my fiance on the Summit Chair at Ellen 5 years ago.



I love hearing this stuff.


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## mister moose (Jan 17, 2020)

Orca said:


> Well, $10 or $25 as an average source of revenue all the skier days would put SB out of business fast, so you are getting a subsidy if your costs are that low. So have some tolerance for those that might not like the idea of anyone paying $129 for a day.
> 
> I get it too that SB is aligned with the greater industry in charging much increased window rates. I am not asking for SB to atone for the industry trend. I just lament that the trend is a little ugly for the casual skier.



Maybe not so much.  Using some rough numbers, if Sugarbush gets 400k skier visits, and the ratio to unique skiers is about 7:1, then there are 57,000 unique skiers at Sugarbush.  If all those 57,000 skiers bought a $900 pass, and zero day tickets were sold, that's 51 million in pass revenue.  Somehow I think Sugarbush could run on that.  So each passholder's contribution is a reasonable percentage of seasonal revenue on a per skier basis, even though the cost per day might be lower for a high volume user.

The industry is rewarding a lack of spontaneity in how they sell tickets.  They want advance commitment, and an earlier revenue stream.  Until that changes, window prices are going to be rough.


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## Orca (Jan 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Maybe not so much.  Using some rough numbers, if Sugarbush gets 400k skier visits, and the ratio to unique skiers is about 7:1, then there are 57,000 unique skiers at Sugarbush.  If all those 57,000 skiers bought a $900 pass, and zero day tickets were sold, that's 51 million in pass revenue.



Sure, if each pass holder skied only 7 days (400k / 57k). If each skied 21 days, lift lines would triple. You want that?


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2020)

Orca said:


> Look, I have a season pass and have for many years. I haven't bought a window price day ticket at Sugarbush in at least a decade. The whole window rate discussion is related to its relative expense as related to other ways of acquiring a day's (or a season's) access to the mountain. It is not helpful for pass holders to wave around that they are only paying $10 a day because they ski so much, etc. It comes across as a little smug and self-serving; it is a bit like saying "hey, I've got mine, so I don't give a crap about the casual skier". Well, $10 or $25 as an average source of revenue all the skier days would put SB out of business fast, so you are getting a subsidy if your costs are that low. So have some tolerance for those that might not like the idea of anyone paying $129 for a day.
> 
> I get it too that SB is aligned with the greater industry in charging much increased window rates. I am not asking for SB to atone for the industry trend. I just lament that the trend is a little ugly for the casual skier.



I know a number of casual skiers that only go to sb a few days a year. They don’t pay anywhere near the window price either. You just have to be a smart consumer and pay attention. No one should ever pay a window rate (even day of from the parking lot you can save something just ordering from your phone)


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Orca (Jan 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I know a number of casual skiers that only go to sb a few days a year. They don’t pay anywhere near the window price either. You just have to be a smart consumer and pay attention. No one should ever pay a window rate (even day of from the parking lot you can save something just ordering from your phone)



We agree. No one should pay that rate.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2020)

WinS said:


> smaller feeder hills are incredibly important for all of us and many of them are doing well. In our back yard Cochran’s and Bolton are great example



lol Win.. Bolton Valley is not a "feeder hill". It's a destination for skiers who enjoy tree skiing, powder conditions, low crowds, and good deals.

I drive up from Western MA and day trip Bolton Valley usually a few times a season because the terrain/value/conditions is a winning combination.

You might as well call Mad River Glen a feeder hill :lol:

I haven't read all the recent posts in this thread but as long as (any ski area) charges $139 walk up rate in Vermont, it's going to be a topic that comes up.

10 years ago Stowe went triple digits and everyone wigged out like it was breaking a sacred oath. I guess if it keeps increasing well beyond the rate of inflation now, that's OK though.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

its also closest to burlington, has inexpensive lift tix, even less expensive night ski tix. its a large feeder hill, but its still a feeder hill in that it serves as an inexpensive option for noobies and is closest to the biggest town in the state.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its also closest to burlington, has inexpensive lift tix, even less expensive night ski tix. its a large feeder hill, but its still a feeder hill in that it serves as an inexpensive option for noobies and is closest to the biggest town in the state.



I guess Sugarbush is now a feeder hill for Winter Park, Deer Valley and Stratton then


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

well, we're using feeder hill in two different ways. both make sense for the term

1) a place for beginners to learn inexpensively before graduating to bigger/better places. bolton fits in here, tho i agree its a lot bigger and better than the typical northeastern/midatlantic feeder hill

2) a place owned by or affiliated with one of the conglomerates where the major purpose of the affiliation or acquisition was to get locals to visit the far off destination resorts. sugarbush does fit this definition. tho i dont think sugarbush is feeding stratton. stratton and sugarbush are both feeding winter park tho for sure.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2020)

Totally agree. Just seemed odd to lump in Bolton Valley -- a hill I ski more often than Sugarbush for a few reasons -- with Cochran's (what is that like 200 vertical feet or less?)

A feeder hill is not a hill that expert skiers will travel to ski their quality terrain. If you call Bolton a feeder hill, Mad River Glen and Pico fall into the same category. Burke too, right?

So at that point it's basically just calling every ski resort that's not quite as big and expensive a feeder hill. A few "feeder hills" do exist in Vermont, but they are almost never discussed here.

Massachusetts and New York have a lot more actual feeder hills, such as Blanford Ski Area, West Mountain, Butternut, Nashoba Valley, Titus Mountain, etc

To call a 1,700 vert mountain on I-89 with first rate tree skiing, 3 mountains, legit technical terrain and > 300" snowfall a feeder hill just sounds like someone speaking from a radically different perspective.

By the way the Bolton/Burlington locals and regular skiers don't consider it a feeder hill either, and an extra half hour to Sugarbush doesn't exactly make it out of range. It's the ticket price!

But if Bolton is a feeder thank God feeder hills such as this do exist


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2020)

Win- snow report says “lifts start turning at 8am”. Does that mean everything or just the usual bravo HG and GMX?  If all opening at 8, I likey.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 17, 2020)

JimG. said:


> My first day of skiing was at The Concord December 1962. It was my father's first day too.
> 
> My mom was already an avid skier.



I first skied at grossingers around 1971.

kind of silly to use the nevelle as an example of a failed ski resort.

i dont know if this is a factor in the lack of growth in skiers, but, and please don’t take this the wrong way, isn’t population growth in the United States mostly among people from warm climates, like central/South America, Southeast Asia, and Africa?  Cold weather activities are just totally foreign to people from these cultures, which is totally understandable.


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## Los (Jan 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> kind of silly to use the nevelle as an example of a failed ski resort.



YES - totally bizarre! Of ALL the closed ski areas, they pick the NEVELE as the example of a changing/declining ski industry?!? The Nevele was one of the classic Catskill resorts, all of which are now gone (and have mostly been for some time now). The ski area was a minor accessory to the hotel (by contrast, the Monster golf course at the Concord was it's own attraction and survived even after the resort closed). The closing of Nevele's ski area was a byproduct of the closing of the Nevele hotel, which itself was a byproduct of a the overall death of the Catskill resorts. I would guess that whatever changes occurred in the ski industry up until the time the Nevele closed had ALMOST NOTHING TO DO with the Nevele closing or the closing of its accessory ski area!


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## crazy (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> lol Win.. Bolton Valley is not a "feeder hill". It's a destination for skiers who enjoy tree skiing, powder conditions, low crowds, and good deals.



There's no reason why Bolton Valley can't be both a feeder hill, and a legitimate destination. If we define a feeder hill as somewhere near a metropolitan area with affordable lessons where lots of people have learned how to ski, then yes, Bolton Valley is a feeder hill. Talk to skiers who grew up in the Burlington area, and a lot of them will say that they learned how to ski at Bolton Valley.

What's tripping you up is that most feeder hills are not also destinations with good vertical, terrain, and snowfall. Bolton Valley checks both boxes. Now, to be sure, I bet that if you polled people at Bolton Valley on a weekend, you would see fewer out-of-state skiers than a place like Sugarbush or Stowe or even MRG. It's more of a locals mountain. But I agree with you completely that Bolton Valley is worth traveling from far away to check out. It's truly a gem.


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## crazy (Jan 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This whole argument about the price of walk up day tickets is getting old.  I really do not care at all.  I have been buying a season pass for the better part of 33 years and have never had my daily cost go over $25 a day.  If you are not savvy enough to find a deal that suits you then tough.  Personally I hope skier visits go down so the crowds will go away. But what irks me the most is people think is it some kind of right or responsibility of the business owners to provide an inexpensive ticket to people.  it is not and guess what, skiing is a very expensive operation for these people.  I have zero issues with the pricing structure right now.  It is is actually cheaper for me to ski right now then in the past.  Well except for when I did college passes.



I completely agree. 

All of the talk of high walk-up rates killing the industry is way overblown. People for the most part are savvy in finding deals, I just don't buy this argument that casual skiers are ignorant and don't know to look for deals before showing up. I'm sure that some people get burned once paying walk-up rates, but then you learn and it doesn't happen again. There are so many apps and websites these days for finding deals, there just isn't really an excuse for paying walk-up rates. 

For some reason people are stuck in the mindset that the cost of skiing is the cost of a walk-up ticket. That's certainly not the case in other industries like hotels, where you would be laughed at for complaining about the cost of a hotel that you didn't book in advance. 

It doesn't seem genuine to me to complain about the cost of a walk-up Sugarbush lift ticket without also discussing the many ways that Sugarbush helps customers realize a lot of value through pass products, four packs, advanced sales, and more.


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Win- snow report says “lifts start turning at 8am”. Does that mean everything or just the usual bravo HG and GMX?  If all opening at 8, I likey.



Just GMX and Bravo.


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## Orca (Jan 18, 2020)

crazy said:


> It doesn't seem genuine to me to complain about the cost of a walk-up Sugarbush lift ticket without also discussing the many ways that Sugarbush helps customers realize a lot of value through pass products, four packs, advanced sales, and more.



Well it is genuine. It is the large and growing disparity between the window rate and the other products that is the crux of the discussion. The question isn't why not use clever means to reduce your ski day cost; the question is why that has become so necessary. Why does the window rate have to be so punishing?


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## mikec142 (Jan 18, 2020)

Orca said:


> Well it is genuine. It is the large and growing disparity between the window rate and the other products that is the crux of the discussion. The question isn't why not use clever means to reduce your ski day cost; the question is why that has become so necessary. Why does the window rate have to be so punishing?



A couple of thoughts.  First, it's a business.  And if it's to be an ongoing successful business it needs cashflow.  So the earlier they can obtain cash, the healthier the business will be.  Second, because businesses require healthy cashflow, it behooves them to incentivize their customers to pay up front.  How do you do that?  By giving upfront discounts and making late decisions more painful.  Last, I think that Win and crew are exceptional business people.  But other than the kindness of their hearts, they should be combining their best interests with the best interests of their customers to find the ideal mix.  It's not the customer first.  It's the customer and the business at the same time to find the optimal situation.  

And, my final point...the whole discussion of the high cost of day passes is tiring.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 18, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> And, my final point...the whole discussion of the high cost of day passes is tiring.



This is becoming a trend on this forum: Participate in discussing a topic wherein some disagreement exists and at the same time complain about the fact that it's being discussed.

Blame whoever decided to charge $139 walk up rate in Vermont, reducing that window rate would eliminate the entire discussion.


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## Greg (Jan 18, 2020)

I don't see why so many here are now consumed with complaining about this stuff. High window ticket prices, megapass hate, more crowds, blah blah, blah. Newsflash - skiing has always been relatively expensive and midwinter Saturdays at major reports have always been crowded. Just friggin' ski. Or don't.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 18, 2020)

Greg said:


> I don't see why so many here are now consumed with complaining about this stuff. High window ticket prices, megapass hate, more crowds, blah blah, blah. Newsflash - skiing has always been relatively expensive and midwinter Saturdays at major reports have always been crowded. Just friggin' ski. Or don't.



Why are people complaining about the biggest problems in the sport of skiing on a ski forum? C'mon.

How is Bretton Woods able to charge $104/$88 when they do more grooming and snowmaking and just installed a new summit gondola? Maybe not apples to apples ... but I'm curious why not, and why such a large price difference?

The ski areas that decide to charge the "new highest rates" are a problem for everyone even if you don't want to ski there; it causes prices to go up everywhere in a proportional sense. We're way beyond the rate of inflation on these price hikes. Why wouldn't you complain unless you have unlimited funds to play with?


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## crazy (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Why are people complaining about the biggest problems in the sport of skiing on a ski forum? C'mon.
> 
> *How is Bretton Woods able to charge $104/$88* when they do more grooming and snowmaking and just installed a new summit gondola? Maybe not apples to apples ... but I'm curious why not, and why such a large price difference?
> 
> The ski areas that decide to charge the "new highest rates" are a problem for everyone even if you don't want to ski there; it causes prices to go up everywhere in a proportional sense. We're way beyond the rate of inflation on these price hikes. *Why wouldn't you complain unless you have unlimited funds to play with?*



To your first point about Bretton Woods: pricing is generally dictated by supply and demand. If Sugarbush is charging $139 as their walk-up price, that probably means that either 1) there are people willing to pay that price, or 2) that price encourages people to buy tickets or passes in advance. If nobody was willing to pay $139, or transition to another pass product, Sugarbush would be forced to lower their prices to compete. It's not like Sugarbush is a monopoly, MRG is right next door, and there are plenty of other high-quality resorts in the area, including Bolton Valley, Cochran's, the Middlebury Snow Bowl, Stowe, Killington, Pico, etc.

To your second point saying that unless we all have unlimited funds we should all be complaining...have you been reading the rest of the thread? There are tons of examples of people here who have passes who are skiing for as little as $10/day. The reason that I am not complaining isn't that I have unlimited funds, far from it, it's that I do my research and make smart decisions. I have the Ikon Pass along with some other early season discounts. My per-day cost of skiing is pretty low. I'm getting the best value that I've ever gotten as far as ski passes are concerned. 

Due to price discrimination, most people are NOT paying the walk-up rates! Win, if you have data on what percentage of skier visits are from people who paid walk-up rates, or even what the average yield is per customer as you were alluding to earlier, that would be helpful. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't allowed to disclose that data, but it would be informative for these discussions.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 18, 2020)

crazy said:


> To your first point about Bretton Woods: pricing is generally dictated by supply and demand. If Sugarbush is charging $139 as their walk-up price, that probably means that either 1) there are people willing to pay that price, or 2) that price encourages people to buy tickets or passes in advance. If nobody was willing to pay $139, or transition to another pass product, Sugarbush would be forced to lower their prices to compete. It's not like Sugarbush is a monopoly, MRG is right next door, and there are plenty of other high-quality resorts in the area, including Bolton Valley, Cochran's, the Middlebury Snow Bowl, Stowe, Killington, Pico, etc.



I think the expectation is Bretton Woods prices will rise pretty soon. Right now it's practically a bargain among top-tier Eastern ski resorts. On the topic of MRG they've raised their prices quite a bit in the last couple years, which I blame partially on Sugarbush raising the prices next door so drastically... good for them I guess, I still get to ski there 3 times a year on various promo passes. 



crazy said:


> To your second point saying that unless we all have unlimited funds we should all be complaining...have you been reading the rest of the thread? There are tons of examples of people here who have passes who are skiing for as little as $10/day. The reason that I am not complaining isn't that I have unlimited funds, far from it, it's that I do my research and make smart decisions. I have the Ikon Pass along with some other early season discounts. My per-day cost of skiing is pretty low. I'm getting the best value that I've ever gotten as far as ski passes are concerned.



I hear that for sure. However I'm going to go the other direction and support/use the Indy Pass (starting next year, I have enough passes for this year already). I'm not able to drive to a place like Sugarbush often enough, and I'd get bored if I skied any place more than a few times a season. That's my issue and my "problem" I guess.



crazy said:


> Due to price discrimination, most people are NOT paying the walk-up rates! Win, if you have data on what percentage of skier visits are from people who paid walk-up rates, or even what the average yield is per customer as you were alluding to earlier, that would be helpful. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't allowed to disclose that data, but it would be informative for these discussions.



"Price discrimination" sure is an interesting term. I think it mostly discriminates against new skiers and/or recent immigrants who have various hurdles acquainting themselves with not only a new (expensive) sport but also the topographical and social learning curve involved. Learning how to get tickets without paying window rate is certainly a learning curve as well.

Appreciate the nuanced & productive reply.


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## Greg (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Why wouldn't you complain unless you have unlimited funds to play with?



Because I try not to complain about things I have no control over. I do however vote with my dollars and overall, I normally find value in the things I spend money on. If not, I'll spend it elsewhere. Probably just easier to complain though... :lol:


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## Greg (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> We're way beyond the rate of inflation on these price hikes.



Not saying this isn't true, but I wonder if this has been examined and whether the ski industry is that much different than other recreational activities.


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

How do yall think crowds will be tomorrow...deciding where to go...


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 18, 2020)

Greg said:


> Because I try not to complain about things I have no control over. I do however vote with my dollars and overall, I normally find value in the things I spend money on. If not, I'll spend it elsewhere. Probably just easier to complain though... :lol:



In the 31,000 posts you made on AlpineZone before I even signed up here you never complained? 

Of course it's easier to complain! But we have a thread dedicated to Sugarbush, and they are charging slap-in-the-face walk up rates. I'm not the only one to notice but some folks are more concerned if they offend Sugarbush (even with anonymous handles -- I'll be skiing there on a Warren Miller pass this season either way).

$129/$139 weekends. #NotNormal #RESIST  :flag:

Again as someone who considers myself an "over-poster" on this forum... lol


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## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> In the 31,000 posts you made on AlpineZone before I even signed up here you never complained?
> 
> Of course it's easier to complain! But we have a thread dedicated to Sugarbush, and they are charging slap-in-the-face walk up rates. I'm not the only one to notice but some folks are more concerned if they offend Sugarbush (even with anonymous handles -- I'll be skiing there on a Warren Miller pass this season either way).
> 
> ...



Quit bitching and go skiing


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## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> How do yall think crowds will be tomorrow...deciding where to go...



Mt Ellen was pretty much ski on all day today in the singles line.  Likely pent up demand for a powder day so tomorrow will see more people on the mountain.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 18, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Quit bitching and go skiing



Got $139 I can borrow?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 18, 2020)

At least you get 8 hours of skiing for the $139 you are borrowing. Figure that you’re not a golfer, where you can pay even more for only 3 to 4 hours of recreation.


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## djd66 (Jan 18, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Got $139 I can borrow?



I paid for my seasons pass up front.  Personally, I’m glad the walk up rate is $139 and there are (hopefully) fewer people in line tomorrow.


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## Scruffy (Jan 18, 2020)

It's whatever the market will bear. If you don't like the Vail/Altera walk up rates and can't do the mega pass, go ski the indie mountains. They are half the price of Sugarbush's walkup rate, even on weekends and holidays. Who knows, this whole mega pass thing could wind up saving the small indie mountains from NELSAP?


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## Orca (Jan 18, 2020)

Not a single person has advanced a single reason as to why the day rate should be so punishing.


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## Orca (Jan 18, 2020)

So you have a friend and he's a pretty good guy. Treats most people fairly, but gives the sh*t to one guy in particular. You can't quite see why he's reasonable with everyone but this one guy. Maybe you suggest to your friend that he ease up on the guy that he's knocking around unnecessarily. That it isn't warranted to treat him so.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2020)

Orca said:


> So you have a friend and he's a pretty good guy. Treats most people fairly, but gives the sh*t to one guy in particular. You can't quite see why he's reasonable with everyone but this one guy. Maybe you suggest to your friend that he ease up on the guy that he's knocking around unnecessarily. That it isn't warranted to treat him so.


This is an excellent post

but, umm...wut?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mikec142 (Jan 18, 2020)

Orca said:


> Not a single person has advanced a single reason as to why the day rate should be so punishing.



I have.  You just choose to hear what you want to hear.


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## Orca (Jan 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> This is an excellent post
> 
> but, umm...wut?



Analogy. Guy that is getting the sh*t is the window rate payer.


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## Orca (Jan 19, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I have.  You just choose to hear what you want to hear.



I wish it were so! But no one has said why it is _*necessary and good*_ for the window rate to be so high. People have only asserted that you can work around it.


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## Not Sure (Jan 19, 2020)

Orca said:


> Not a single person has advanced a single reason as to why the day rate should be so punishing.



My friend is retiring CFO of a packaging Co. He's from a long line of businessmen ,his dad had a saying " When you have someone by the Ba**s you don't let go to get a better grip "


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Why are people complaining about the biggest problems in the sport of skiing on a ski forum? C'mon.
> 
> How is Bretton Woods able to charge $104/$88 when they do more grooming and snowmaking and just installed a new summit gondola? Maybe not apples to apples ... but I'm curious why not, and why such a large price difference?
> 
> The ski areas that decide to charge the "new highest rates" are a problem for everyone even if you don't want to ski there; it causes prices to go up everywhere in a proportional sense. We're way beyond the rate of inflation on these price hikes. Why wouldn't you complain unless you have unlimited funds to play with?




This is the snapshot the online ticket sales.  Yes today and tomorrow are peak and holiday so expensive but just 2 days in advance they are $74 and as high as 96 on the weekends.  This is not killing the industry.  You guys are just cheap.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 19, 2020)

This just isn't at SB its at every ikon and epic run property.  But I'll throw this at the discussion.  The consumer that is waiting last minute to buy a lift ticket is probably waiting on conditions that day.  On a day like this, sure he should pay top dollar for waiting and the conditions probably will warrant it.  My thing is then it should be the other way around too.  If it is -10 below or the ski area has half the mtn open or it just finished up a thaw freeze cycle, then I think they should reduce the ticket window price to warrant conditions.  Case in point.  My son was racing at Mt. Sunapee on Friday.  I was thinking about making a few runs before hand.  I called up the ticket office to see if there were discount for racing parents or half day rate.  NO and NO.  Even though I was only skiing a half day(afternoon) we just go off a thaw freeze cycle and it was only 2 degrees that day, Sunapee still wanted to whack me for $104 dollars.


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## djd66 (Jan 19, 2020)

Great weekend! This has been some of the best conditions of the year.  The hike to Castlerock was like the line that forms on the Hillary Step (not that I have been there) - just crazy how many people are hiking to castlerock!

My only comment is the new configuration of the line going to Gatehouse.  Not good having the line go up hill when it works much better the way it has been for so long.  I don’t like to bitch about anything when the conditions are so good, but I think the old way works much better


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## Orca (Jan 19, 2020)

Never seen longer lift lines. SB was overwhelmed. Must have been an excellent revenue day.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> At least you get 8 hours of skiing for the $139 you are borrowing. Figure that you’re not a golfer, where you can pay even more for only 3 to 4 hours of recreation.[/QUOTE
> 
> Never thought of it this way but absolutely right. This is the best point so far


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## baseconsolidation (Jan 19, 2020)

Anyone know what was happening with the summit chair today? Lifties were loading every other chair and said it was because they didn’t have enough power. Then it shut down soon after. Is this curtailments or something with the chair itself?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WWF-VT (Jan 19, 2020)

baseconsolidation said:


> Anyone know what was happening with the summit chair today? Lifties were loading every other chair and said it was because they didn’t have enough power. Then it shut down soon after. Is this curtailments or something with the chair itself?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't know about the Summit chair,   but wondering if the GMX is going to get fixed and not be running on diesel.


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## slatham (Jan 19, 2020)

Orca said:


> Not a single person has advanced a single reason as to why the day rate should be so punishing.



To encourage: season passes; quad packs, and pre bought online day tickets. So there’s three.


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## slatham (Jan 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> This just isn't at SB its at every ikon and epic run property.  But I'll throw this at the discussion.  The consumer that is waiting last minute to buy a lift ticket is probably waiting on conditions that day.  On a day like this, sure he should pay top dollar for waiting and the conditions probably will warrant it.  My thing is then it should be the other way around too.  If it is -10 below or the ski area has half the mtn open or it just finished up a thaw freeze cycle, then I think they should reduce the ticket window price to warrant conditions.  Case in point.  My son was racing at Mt. Sunapee on Friday.  I was thinking about making a few runs before hand.  I called up the ticket office to see if there were discount for racing parents or half day rate.  NO and NO.  Even though I was only skiing a half day(afternoon) we just go off a thaw freeze cycle and it was only 2 degrees that day, Sunapee still wanted to whack me for $104 dollars.



This is where “policy” gets in the way of making money......


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## WinS (Jan 19, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> I don't know about the Summit chair,   but wondering if the GMX is going to get fixed and not be running on diesel.



As I mentioned previously, we had a major lightning strike. Poma and subcontractor AB&B have been trying multiple things to repair the drive. We may be at the point where we need to replace with a new drive. Once built and delivered we would likely have to take GMX offline for a couple of days to install and then have a load test. Would obviously do midweek and have Inverness as  the lift to get over to Northridge and then Summit.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks for the update on the GMX


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 19, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> *It's whatever the market will bear.* If you don't like the Vail/Altera walk up rates and can't do the mega pass, go ski the indie mountains.



In almost every instance in life, you'd be correct, but not in this rather unusual instance, as ski industry "walk up rates" are now completely detached from financial reasonableness, and intentionally so to drive pass sales.  

Thus the market actually isn't "bearing" it, but that's the point.


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## Scruffy (Jan 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> In almost every instance in life, you'd be correct, but not in this rather unusual instance, as ski industry "walk up rates" are now completely detached from financial reasonableness, and intentionally so to drive pass sales.
> 
> Thus the market actually isn't "bearing" it, but that's the point.



I would submit the market is bearing it - 7000 tickets were sold at Hunter on Sat. That's in addition to the _intentional_ drive to the mega passes. And by all accounts, all the NE mountains were packed this weekend.  So, as a customer, either play ball and get a mega pass, or pay up at the window, or seek alternatives, like the small indie mountains.


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## Orca (Jan 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> To encourage: season passes; quad packs, and pre bought online day tickets. So there’s three.



I think you're right. It does appear to be intended to compel a subscription model by making the traditional day ticket unappealing. The next question would be: who benefits from this?


----------



## Orca (Jan 19, 2020)

I am surprised that there isn't more talk about how overwhelmed SB was today. Mad house, really. Parking was all backed up (though I heard it was much worse at Stowe). Super Bravo and Valley House lines merged in an indistinct mass of people. Gate House line wrapped up the hill and sideways. (Appreciated Win out there organizing the flow to keep things moving -- nice work.) I asked someone who works with Vermont Adaptive and skis Mt. Ellen a lot what the Ellen base lodge was like and she responded with three words: it was impossible. Guess there were a lot of folks with pent up desire to get out, plus a holiday weekend, and it showed!


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 19, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> I would submit the market is bearing it - 7000 tickets were sold at Hunter on Sat.



Hunter doesnt count, it's lift ticket price is $90, which is not akin to the insane $140, $150, $200 ticket prices we're talking about.  Not to mention, it's a bit of an outlier given it's market is the richest in America.

And not that it matters, but where does that 7k figure for walk-ups come from, as it's tough to believe?



Orca said:


> I am* surprised that there isn't more talk about how overwhelmed SB was today. Mad house, really. Parking was all backed up*



Sounds like a truly IKONic day!


----------



## slatham (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> I think you're right. It does appear to be intended to compel a subscription model by making the traditional day ticket unappealing. The next question would be: who benefits from this?



Not just passes/subscription but online. Wednesday tickets are selling for $74. Next Saturday $96. A little risk, a little forethought, very reasonable pricing.


----------



## Scruffy (Jan 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hunter doesnt count, it's lift ticket price is $90, which is not akin to the insane $140, $150, $200 ticket prices we're talking about.  Not to mention, it's a bit of an outlier given it's market is the richest in America.
> 
> And not that it matters, but where does that 7k figure for walk-ups come from, as it's tough to believe?
> 
> ...



It's Vail now, it counts ( it's a mega resort now :roll:  .) And we don't know what Sugarbush or Vail proper sold this weekend on top of all the season pass holders and IKON/EPIC, so it's hard to discuss it without numbers. Furthermore, as you know, there are cutoff dates to buy EPIC/IKON passes, so anyone not planning way ahead is forced to the window price or any online discounts by buying in multiple days in advance. Regardless, the market is *bearing the new model *( and the high walk up rates are part of that new model), was my point, the proof is in the number of ski areas reporting record crowds. We'll see over time where the number of skiers or ski days (same skiers, more days) goes.  Meantime I'm enjoying the new model. My skiing has never been as inexpensive as it is right now. Last year on IKON my ski days were $11.99 when all said and done.  :beer:


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 20, 2020)

slatham said:


> To encourage: season passes; quad packs, and pre bought online day tickets. So there’s three.



Remember when the mountains would offer a "conditions" money-back guarantee for the first 30-60 minutes of the day? LOL, that's long gone.


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## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

slatham said:


> Not just passes/subscription but online. Wednesday tickets are selling for $74. Next Saturday $96. A little risk, a little forethought, very reasonable pricing.



Agree. However advanced purchase does shift risk to the consumer. It is a back door way of imposing a 100% cancelation fee on your ski plans.


----------



## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Last year on IKON my ski days were $11.99 when all said and done.  :beer:



Terrific for you that your circumstances allow you to take such good advantage of the pass. However, your usage is not scalable across the population of IKON pass holders. The model would break down if everyone used that much product, most notably on high-demand days.

I think you are right that the IKON pass (and Epic too) are attractive products. I'll likely have one next year.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> I am surprised that there isn't more talk about how overwhelmed SB was today. Mad house, really. Parking was all backed up (though I heard it was much worse at Stowe). Super Bravo and Valley House lines merged in an indistinct mass of people. Gate House line wrapped up the hill and sideways. (Appreciated Win out there organizing the flow to keep things moving -- nice work.) I asked someone who works with Vermont Adaptive and skis Mt. Ellen a lot what the Ellen base lodge was like and she responded with three words: it was impossible. Guess there were a lot of folks with pent up desire to get out, plus a holiday weekend, and it showed!




I have a friend who got stuck on the mountain road for 2 hours going to stowe before turning around and coming to sugarbush yesterday.


----------



## WinS (Jan 20, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I have a friend who got stuck on the mountain road for 2 hours going to stowe before turning around and coming to sugarbush yesterday.



I think we met him at the ticket window. Yes, it is was a very busy day yesterday.  A record for us.  But, when I timed the base area lines they were mostly under 10 minutes which for a Holiday anywhere is pretty good.  The shortest lift lines are early and at noon. And that was without Castlerock or Slidebrook running. We need another foot of snow to get safe snowmobile access into SB for the lift mechanics.  We also had parking still available in Lot G although Mount Ellen did fill up early. The vast majority of the skiers here as always were season pass holders.  And, yes, the lodges on the Holidays get jammed because most people come in at the same time, and we do have future plans as I have mentioned in the past to expand our mid-mountain lodges to take the load of the base area lodges.


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## 1dog (Jan 20, 2020)

WinS said:


> I think we met him at the ticket window. Yes, it is was a very busy day yesterday.  A record for us.  But, when I timed the base area lines they were mostly under 10 minutes which for a Holiday anywhere is pretty good.  The shortest lift lines are early and at noon. And that was without Castlerock or Slidebrook running. We need another foot of snow to get safe snowmobile access into SB for the lift mechanics.  We also had parking still available in Lot G although Mount Ellen did fill up early. The vast majority of the skiers here as always were season pass holders.  And, yes, the lodges on the Holidays get jammed because most people come in at the same time, and we do have future plans as I have mentioned in the past to expand our mid-mountain lodges to take the load of the base area lodges.



Thx Win,

Those of us who are pass holders expect this, plan for it, and don't get our panties in a twist when the place has record crowds. Skied both days, and frankly Sat wasn't bad because we had no wind. Kept the holiday 3-4 day a year skiers/riders down. They came out for the new snow and  moderating temps - who'd of thunk it? Of course they did.

Got to the mountain early and  skied 4 runs w no lines before 9:30 - VH was ski on and SB was reasonable- 10 mins maybe. Does anyone remember the 80's???

Went over to north at 10 Sunday - maybe a mistake- cars parked to German Flats. . . .dropped off my skis and found a front row - ok ok maybe not perfectly legal. . . .but lines there were not bad except 10:30-11:30 at GMX while Inverness was ski on. 

Another 1' or two.

Glad the new owners were handed a gem, lets hope they keep it that way. Lodges are packed but most on this forum are here to ski. I ate my lunch on the lift. I didn't see a lot of unhappy people in lodges when I went to use restrooms, not Walts nor GH. They expect this. 

Once that mid mountain odge gets built it might help, but I am sure it and the valley will draw more people. Thats the goal of a business. . . to expand and enhance its shareholders value.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 20, 2020)

PS

Also didn't hurt to have no northeast teams in playoffs. . . . .  1st time in a while


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## WinS (Jan 20, 2020)

1dog said:


> PS
> 
> Also didn't hurt to have no northeast teams in playoffs. . . . .  1st time in a while



Yes. That is a big factor too.

 Cold today and no lines. The sun helps and the snow is really nice.  Snowmaking on Stein's (after a groom last night) and Brambles at ME and moving next to Cliffs at ME and then building up the Spring trails at LP to get us to May again. Headed out to do a few more runs with the grandkids.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> I think you're right. It does appear to be intended to compel a subscription model by making the traditional day ticket unappealing. The next question would be: who benefits from this?



You keep moving the goal posts.  Who benefits?  Both skiers and resort owners.  Skiers benefit because more revenue for the mountain will lead to more investment and improvements on the mountain.  Owners hopefully benefit with higher profits.


----------



## WWF-VT (Jan 20, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> You keep moving the goal posts.  Who benefits?  Both skiers and resort owners.  Skiers benefit because more revenue for the mountain will lead to more investment and improvements on the mountain.  Owners hopefully benefit with higher profits.



Can we move this topic to it's own thread ?  It's getting to be annoying and more relevant to the industry at large than just Sugarbush.  Maybe the thread can be titled "I'm Stupid Enough to Pay the Walk Up Ticket Price and I Want to Bitch About It".


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> Agree. However advanced purchase does shift risk to the consumer. It is a back door way of imposing a 100% cancelation fee on your ski plans.



Any purchase in advance comes with risk.  But with risk comes reward.  Purchasing a few days in advance comes with relatively low risk.

Frankly, I'm not sure what your concern is.  It seems that you believe that day rates should be lower because you feel that they are cost prohibitive.  But you haven't shown any logic that indicates that this would be better for the business owner.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we move this topic to it's own thread ?  It's getting to be annoying and more relevant to the industry at large than just Sugarbush.  Maybe the thread can be titled "I'm Stupid Enough to Pay the Walk Up Ticket Price and I Want to Bitch About It".




I agree with you completely and apologize for furthering the conversation.  Would love to see it as its own thread.  Only I would want the title to be "I have a season pass, but that won't stop me from bitching about the day rates"


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## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> You keep moving the goal posts.  Who benefits?  Both skiers and resort owners.  Skiers benefit because more revenue for the mountain will lead to more investment and improvements on the mountain.  Owners hopefully benefit with higher profits.



It's not moving the goalposts when you ask a follow up question. I am not so sure everyone benefits. You are making assertions without backing them up. It is not at all clear that the skier benefits from the increased risk exposure.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 20, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we move this topic to it's own thread ?  It's getting to be annoying and more relevant to the industry at large than just Sugarbush.  Maybe the thread can be titled "I'm Stupid Enough to Pay the Walk Up Ticket Price and I Want to Bitch About It".



+100000


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## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I agree with you completely and apologize for furthering the conversation.  Would love to see it as its own thread.  Only I would want the title to be "I have a season pass, but that won't stop me from bitching about the day rates"



Or we could title the thread "F*ck the casual skier, I've got mine", which is the prevalent attitude here.


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## djd66 (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca - just curious,... how do you feel about the airline industry charging significantly more for the price for a ticket that you purchase in the airport VS the guy that plans ahead (months ahead) and buys a ticket at the lowest rate?


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## tumbler (Jan 20, 2020)

WinS said:


> I think we met him at the ticket window. Yes, it is was a very busy day yesterday.  A record for us.  But, when I timed the base area lines they were mostly under 10 minutes which for a Holiday anywhere is pretty good.  The shortest lift lines are early and at noon. And that was without Castlerock or Slidebrook running. We need another foot of snow to get safe snowmobile access into SB for the lift mechanics.  We also had parking still available in Lot G although Mount Ellen did fill up early. The vast majority of the skiers here as always were season pass holders.  And, yes, the lodges on the Holidays get jammed because most people come in at the same time, and we do have future plans as I have mentioned in the past to expand our mid-mountain lodges to take the load of the base area lodges.



It was jammed for sure but was not unbearable, at least for me.  Congrats on the record day, hopefully some good $$$ from it.  Give the staff a rest, they deserve it.

Now that the closing has happened, when do you think the capital plan for the next 5 years will be revealed?  We know what you would like, will it be funded?


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## AbominableSnowman (Jan 20, 2020)

Heard a report today [Monday, 1/20/20] that someone fell off a chair on the Gatehouse lift yesterday.  Anyone know if that is true?  Also heard that it took a while for a proper response (which I fervently hope is NOT true).....


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sounds like a truly IKONic day!



Nice try, but Ikon base was blacked out...(and base supposedly sells far more passes than the full Ikon).

At any rate, as crowded as it was on Sunday, I still never waited more than 5-10 minutes max at ME (and it was probably the most crowded day I've personally ever seen at ME). Saturday felt like a busy weekend day at LP, but it wasn't too bad as LP can handle a lot of people. I really don't recall waiting more than a few minutes in any lift lines. And today was downright empty and ski on to the lifts. Most of the time I wasn't even sharing a chair with anyone today.

As for parking, what do people expect on a holiday weekend that includes fresh snow? Get there early and you'll have no problem.


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## Smellytele (Jan 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> Agree. However advanced purchase does shift risk to the consumer. It is a back door way of imposing a 100% cancelation fee on your ski plans.



Actually you can call up and move your ski day to another day. If It is cheaper you get a credit. If is is more expensive, you pay the difference. I have done it twice this year. So only risk is you have to use it this year. This is different than something like liftopia.


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## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Actually you can call up and move your ski day to another day. If It is cheaper you get a credit. If is is more expensive, you pay the difference. I have done it twice this year. So only risk is you have to use it this year. This is different than something like liftopia.



Didn't know that. Very good information. Thank you.


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## Orca (Jan 20, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Orca - just curious,... how do you feel about the airline industry charging significantly more for the price for a ticket that you purchase in the airport VS the guy that plans ahead (months ahead) and buys a ticket at the lowest rate?



That is a reasonable comparison. I suppose the relative penalty of buying last minute is similar.

One could argue the virtues of variable pricing based on a combination of demand and risk that is facilitated by the online model.

You guys make some good points.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 21, 2020)

AbominableSnowman said:


> Heard a report today [Monday, 1/20/20] that someone fell off a chair on the Gatehouse lift yesterday.  Anyone know if that is true?  Also heard that it took a while for a proper response (which I fervently hope is NOT true).....



We came by shortly after it happened I believe and saw patrol and others on the scene as we skated over from Bravo. Happened about 150ft from the loading area. A good ~20ft drop. SB team made the call to shut the lift down and send everyone back to Bravo and VH so they could provide some privacy while treating the injured person. We didn’t linger so I don’t know much else. I hope whomever fell is alright.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> We came by shortly after it happened I believe and saw patrol and others on the scene as we skated over from Bravo. Happened about 150ft from the loading area. A good ~20ft drop. SB team made the call to shut the lift down and send everyone back to Bravo and VH so they could provide some privacy while treating the injured person. We didn’t linger so I don’t know much else. I hope whomever fell is alright.



Yes, fortunately, he is fine. And help was there very quickly.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

Any issue with snowmaking at LP? This morning when I woke up the website listed several trails at LP (including Stein's and Pushover) with snowmaking. There was even a note in the snow report to be careful at the top of Pushover with the guns/piles or something like that. By the time I got to work and refreshed the snow report, all mention of LP snowmaking was gone.


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2020)

I was wondering if there were issues myself.  They shut the guns down on Saturday at noon and they did not go back on until Monday morning on Steins.  Now they are off again?  Interesting. You know we do not want to make John Bleh a liar.  He said in this Blog, "Shedding some light on our snowmaking" that we will be blowing snow at every possible window.  it was awfully cold the past few days.

http://www.sugarbush.com/blog/around-the-mountain/shedding-some-light-on-our-snowmaking/


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## tumbler (Jan 21, 2020)

I'm glad they shut down Steins on Saturday before it warmed up.  It was skiing really nice with dry snow, did it a bunch of times.  It was 28 at the base Sunday morning so it would have been the wet stuff.


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2020)

For the record I was watching the temps all day Saturday.  It never went above 20 degrees all the way until I went to bed at 10:00.  In fact it was in the low teens most of the day. Sunday morning it was 28 and then it started dropping once the cold winds started up.  Monday Morning it 3 degrees.  There was only a 12 hour window that the temps were not favorable.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

Interesting...now Stein's is listed on the trail report as closed. I have visions in my head of a pipe bursting and turning Steins into a sheet of ice... Let's hope I'm wrong and that's just my crazy imagination!


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Interesting...now Stein's is listed on the trail report as closed. I have visions in my head of a pipe bursting and turning Steins into a sheet of ice... Let's hope I'm wrong and that's just my crazy imagination!



Yes, That is exactly what happened at 7:20am this morning. The main air pipe exploded,and we had to scramble to shut down Stein's and Slowpoke but a bunch of water was sprayed on those trails. We are digging now to find the break and repair it. We will have to groom Stein's  first before turning the towers back on so we don't get an ice layer below the new snow. Hopefully we can will get it back on tomorrow am. We are sending the crew over to help out at ME where we will be finishing on Brambles by morning and moving over to Cliffs.

 As to Hawk's comments we make our snow plan based on the weather forecast we receive each morning. It has precise forecasts about temperatures at different elevations, humidity, wind. etc and that is what we use to put the plan together.  As you know forecasts don't always reflect what actually happens. John Bleh was correct in what he said.  Unfortunately, later in the week it looks to be warming up again


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes, That is exactly what happened at 7:20am this morning. The main air pipe exploded,and we had to scramble to shut down Stein's and Slowpoke but a bunch of water was sprayed on those trails. We are digging now to find the break and repair it. We will have to groom Stein's  first before turning the towers back on so we don't get an ice layer below the new snow. Hopefully we can will get it back on tomorrow am. We are sending the crew over to help out at ME where we will be finishing on Brambles by morning and moving over to Cliffs.



Ouch...I don't like being right about something like that.


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## tumbler (Jan 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ouch...I don't like being right about something like that.



At least it was the air line, not the water line on Steins.  That would be a major mess.


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## slatham (Jan 21, 2020)

Orca said:


> Agree. However advanced purchase does shift risk to the consumer. It is a back door way of imposing a 100% cancelation fee on your ski plans.



Actually the cancellation fee is built into the walk up rate. If the early purchase online rate is $90, and walk up is $135, the cancellation fee is effectively $45. You pay an extra $45 to have zero risk of losing $90.

Edit: wrote this before seeing the requests to put the subject in a separate thread. So I’ll leave it here.

And sorry about the pipe issue.  Not fun.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2020)

slatham said:


> Actually the cancellation fee is built into the walk up rate. If the early purchase online rate is $90, and walk up is $135, the cancellation fee is effectively $45. You pay an extra $45 to have zero risk of losing $90.
> 
> Edit: wrote this before seeing the requests to put the subject in a separate thread. So I’ll leave it here.
> 
> And sorry about the pipe issue.  Not fun.



It was in a very challenging spot. Just behind the new Lift Maintenance and Water Treatment plant to the uphill side of the Valley House lift. Their is a lot of stuff down there so the dig has to bee done very carefully. They just found the pipe and it has a big crack that needed welding so that is in progress.  A real bummer to be missing they great cold temperatures. If there is any good news it is that we are half curtailed from 5-9pm tonight but with LP down we can keep going at ME.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 21, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we move this topic to it's own thread ?  It's getting to be annoying and more relevant to the industry at large than just Sugarbush.  Maybe the thread can be titled "I'm Stupid Enough to Pay the Walk Up Ticket Price and I Want to Bitch About It".



I think it's fair the topic be discussed in a thread devoted to the resort with the single most expensive Eastern lift ticket. Not that it's a very interesting topic, but the $139/$129 strikes me as highway robbery. Does Stowe even cost as much? Killington is a few bucks less. I can't find the rates for Stowe. I guess it's like a Rolls Royce where "horsepower is sufficient".

Killington was practically my home mountain for years but they priced me out lately


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I think it's fair the topic be discussed in a thread devoted to the resort with the single most expensive Eastern lift ticket. Not that it's a very interesting topic, but the $139/$129 strikes me as highway robbery. Does Stowe even cost as much? Killington is a few bucks less. I can't find the rates for Stowe. I guess it's like a Rolls Royce where "horsepower is sufficient".
> 
> Killington was practically my home mountain for years but they priced me out lately



Stowe is $139/149 window rate. So move this over to the Stowe thread if you think it belongs in "a thread devoted to the resort with the single most expensive Eastern lift ticket"!


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Stowe is $139/149 window rate. So move this over to the Stowe thread if you think it belongs in "a thread devoted to the resort with the single most expensive Eastern lift ticket"!



Really! All I knew was 3 years ago they were $119/$129.

You make a good point about putting it in the Stowe thread (not that there is one, and you Sugarbush regulars are a particularly ornery bunch when it comes to criticism)... but my point that this is way outpacing inflation is also very valid.

But it would also be a much more boring conversation if you guys didn't get defensive AF about absurd window rates. Sugarbush is one of my favorite ski areas too ya know. Lucky I get to hit it once or twice a year on various promos I guess.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Really! All I knew was 3 years ago they were $119/$129.
> 
> You make a good point about putting it in the Stowe thread (not that there is one, and you Sugarbush regulars are a particularly ornery bunch when it comes to criticism)... but my point that this is way outpacing inflation is also very valid.
> 
> But it would also be a much more boring conversation if you guys didn't get defensive AF about absurd window rates. Sugarbush is one of my favorite ski areas too ya know. Lucky I get to hit it once or twice a year on various promos I guess.



I'd genuinely be interested in seeing your answers to the questions I posed in the other thread that dhs created dedicated to this topic.

And again though, there are so many ways to save significant amount of money off that window rate that really make it completely irrelevant. You can even pick up a discounted ticket from REI if you're a member there.


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## jaybird (Jan 21, 2020)

.. back to Steins ..
Reflected as groomed/open for Weds ..
True or false?
Additionally, when was sigi last groomed?
Gracias


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## MorningWoods (Jan 21, 2020)

How about some interesting questions not related to window rates?

Like why was Lixi removed from Twist?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shadyjay (Jan 21, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> How about some interesting questions not related to window rates?
> Like why was Lixi removed from Twist?



I see it shown as such on the 19/20 trail map online, but the trail report link on the web site has always left out "Lixi's".  Same goes for the "Rush" in Black Diamond Rush and the "Joe's" in Cruiser.  Come to think of it, it was only a couple years ago when Lixi's and Joe's were added to the map, despite being signed in the field for several few years prior.


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## WinS (Jan 22, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> I see it shown as such on the 19/20 trail map online, but the trail report link on the web site has always left out "Lixi's".  Same goes for the "Rush" in Black Diamond Rush and the "Joe's" in Cruiser.  Come to think of it, it was only a couple years ago when Lixi's and Joe's were added to the map, despite being signed in the field for several few years prior.



They are still officially Lixi’s Twist, Joe’s Cruiser and Sigi’s Ripcord. Just abbreviated on snow report. The air pipe should be prepared but the temps are going to be only in the mid to high twenties so we will likely hold off for some colder temps this evening.  We are  just building depth for the spring so want to cover with nice dry powder. That will keep Stein’s alt nice for the rest of the season.


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Really! All I knew was 3 years ago they were $119/$129.
> 
> You make a good point about putting it in the Stowe thread (not that there is one, and you Sugarbush regulars are a particularly ornery bunch when it comes to criticism)... but my point that this is way outpacing inflation is also very valid.
> 
> But it would also be a much more boring conversation if you guys didn't get defensive AF about absurd window rates. Sugarbush is one of my favorite ski areas too ya know. Lucky I get to hit it once or twice a year on various promos I guess.


Sugarbush had a record day on Saturday with 10,000 skiers I believe.  I would say that your absurd ticket price didn't have that much affect.  I really do not care about the daily ticket prices and I will not defend the policies.  These prices have little to do with anything unless you are a very specific minority.  The topic is dead and if the price keeps a few stingy people away from Sugarbush then so be it.  Also you must realize your rant will have zero affect.  Alterra now sets the prices.  You will have to wait until next year to see if there is any changes.  Snowmaking affects me.  That is what I spend my time commenting on.


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## flakeydog (Jan 22, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> How about some interesting questions not related to window rates?
> 
> Like why was Lixi removed from Twist?



How about these?

- Why does a bowl of soup cast the same as chili?  Soup should be marginally less don't you think?
- Can we get a piece of bread when we order a salad?
- Can you add an extra cross piece to the ski racks so that the poles don't fall over at the slightest touch?
- Would it be possible to open (or re-open actually) a connection from Semi-Tough to the area south of the GMVS Poma so it can be skied while racing/training is possible? Come in from S-T below the 1st pitch, exit back to S-T just before the bottom of the poma.
- Why are ticket prices so h--  Wait, never mind...

On a positive note- I have been meaning to tell the powers that be that the splash guards they put in the urinals last year, or maybe the prior year, are much better than what was there before.  And you may have thought people don't notice these things.

Oh yeah- is was crowded this last weekend, as it should have been.  Parking was a challenge but not impossible.  Lift lines were really not an issue.  If this is as long as they get, we are spoiled.  Was much worse when all chairs were doubles back in the day.  Still better than just about any area in southern VT on a regular weekend.  I guess it is just such a shock to see a measurable line that people go all nutso about it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Alterra now sets the *prices.*  You will have to wait until next year to see* if* there is any changes.



If?


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Alterra now sets the prices.  You will have to wait until next year to see if there is any changes.  Snowmaking affects me.  That is what I spend my time commenting on.



Regarding pricing with Alterra, my only worry is they do away with the Quad Pack.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 22, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Regarding pricing with Alterra, my only worry is they do away with the Quad Pack.



Stratton has something similar (and actually even has them currently for sale):
https://www.stratton.com/plan-your-trip/deals-and-packages/four-fun-pak

So that may be a positive indication that the potential for Quad packs certainly still exists next year.


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## tumbler (Jan 22, 2020)

It's the quad packs that are causing the crowds because people are too smart to pay the walk up price.


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2020)

tumbler said:


> It's the quad packs that are causing the crowds because people are too smart to pay the walk up price.



This makes no sense.


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## WinS (Jan 22, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> How about these?
> 
> - Why does a bowl of soup cast the same as chili?  Soup should be marginally less don't you think?
> - Can we get a piece of bread when we order a salad?
> ...



WOW!  Thank you so much for noticing the splash guards.  That made my day.  :beer: How about the new towel dispensers???


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## AbominableSnowman (Jan 22, 2020)

WinS said:


> WOW!  Thank you so much for noticing the splash guards.  That made my day.  :beer: How about the new towel dispensers???



The non-slip rubber mats on the floors of the bathrooms (well, the men's room at least) were a great addition, too.  No one wanted to "lose an edge" on the tile floors....


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## ducky (Jan 22, 2020)

If anyone cares about actual skiing anymore (vs pricing), the groomer conditions are prime. There is a few inches coming this weekend, not enough to put the trees in play, but a little more snow is always good. Josh Fox's newest post is slightly more optimistic. http://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com

Steins skied well after the regroom of the ice.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 22, 2020)

something about win's excitement over you noticing the piss spray guards is really cute.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 22, 2020)

just received a sugarbush marketing email with subject line "fresh snow at sugarbush resort" and the first block of text in the email itself reading "Over a foot of snow in the past week!". While technically true, seems a bit dishonest to me. it snowed last sat>sun and we've been in a steady high pressure system with increasing temps all week. any fresh snow from last weekend is well tracked out by now and certainly is not "fresh." i'd take less issue if the subject line was "over a foot of snow in the past week" because at least that is literally true. "fresh snow" is not true, and people less in tune to the weather than we are can be easily misled by that


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2020)

tumbler said:


> It's the quad packs that are causing the crowds because people are too smart to pay the walk up price.



:lol:


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## djd66 (Jan 22, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> just received a sugarbush marketing email with subject line "fresh snow at sugarbush resort" and the first block of text in the email itself reading "Over a foot of snow in the past week!". While technically true, seems a bit dishonest to me. it snowed last sat>sun and we've been in a steady high pressure system with increasing temps all week. any fresh snow from last weekend is well tracked out by now and certainly is not "fresh." i'd take less issue if the subject line was "over a foot of snow in the past week" because at least that is literally true. "fresh snow" is not true, and people less in tune to the weather than we are can be easily misled by that



It’s Wednesday, it snowed on Sunday. Given the winter we have had, I have no problem with the email calling the snow fresh snow in the last week. Would it be better if they said over a foot of snow in the last week, but caution, it may be difficult to get fresh tracks?  I think most people know what they mean. Quite honestly, Sugarbush normally under reports, from what I can see, they don’t play games with over reporting the snow fall.


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## flakeydog (Jan 22, 2020)

WinS said:


> WOW!  Thank you so much for noticing the splash guards.  That made my day.  :beer: How about the new towel dispensers???



Holy sh!t- I knew I forgot something. I did notice that they are better. The waiting 30 seconds for 2 inches of scratchy paper towel to creep out of the dispenser was cutting into my leisure time. These you can grab and run and they work well as tissue. I call the new towel dispensers a success.   

Still wondering about the other items like soup etc. 1st world people have 1st world problems you know...


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## Orca (Jan 22, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> just received a sugarbush marketing email with subject line "fresh snow at sugarbush resort" ... "fresh snow" is not true, and people less in tune to the weather than we are can be easily misled by that



In the spirit of the recent prevalent condescension, you have to be stupider than buying a ticket at the window if you believe ski area snow reports.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 23, 2020)

I'm headed up Sunday and Monday, was hoping someone who skied recently could let me know how the conditions are. Me and my kids stick to the blue trails on both mountains but may try some of the less challenging single diamond trails this time. 

We will be skiing both mountains over the two days.

Especially interested in what Murphys glade looks like these days, bumpiness, cover depth etc. 

Also, I have never skied Sugarbush on a weekend day, last-minute decision because of the weather made us decide to come up and ski Sunday on a Mount Ellen only ticket.  Curious what to expect rthere as far as the lift lines on a Sunday. Jammed,  super jammed or you're gonna regret it LOL. I'm expecting pretty long lines because of the weekend day and the weather that day.

One online purchase and one of my quad packs at work!

Thanks all


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## 1dog (Jan 23, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I'm headed up Sunday and Monday, was hoping someone who skied recently could let me know how the conditions are. Me and my kids stick to the blue trails on both mountains but may try some of the less challenging single diamond trails this time.
> 
> We will be skiing both mountains over the two days.
> 
> ...



While always a crapshoot  - Mellen generally has less lines, or none at all. You might start at 8 AM when GMX opens then head to NorthRidge Chair at 9-, but its a non-holiday weekend, there is no football, and snow predicted so chances are a normal to above normal crowds.

Early , then ski 11:30-1 while the sardines pack Walts, you should be fine.

For single blacks on Ellen maybe  upper Bravo -  then left to lower Exterminator.

Cliffs under GMX and thats about it for North. Let us know how it  works.


As for overstating snow - that's not in Bush 18 year tradition - understating is - and we like it - keeps people away ( we selfishly hope).

What happens with Alterra is yet to be determined.


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Especially interested in what Murphys glade looks like these days, bumpiness, cover depth etc.
> 
> Also, I have never skied Sugarbush on a weekend day, last-minute decision because of the weather made us decide to come up and ski Sunday on a Mount Ellen only ticket.  Curious what to expect rthere as far as the lift lines on a Sunday. Jammed,  super jammed or you're gonna regret it LOL. I'm expecting pretty long lines because of the weekend day and the weather that day.



Murphys should have fine cover/depth. They just finished making snow on it last weekend. Other than some bumps skier's right where they don't groom, it will be pretty flat. Midweek it isn't groomed every day, but on the weekend it often is frequently freshly groomed each night.

As for crowds this Sunday...well...we need to see what happens with the weather. I'm not particularly optimistic that this is going to be the powder day people were expecting just a few days ago. Right now the latest models are definitely showing some non-snow precip types for a period Saturday night. If that ends up becoming reality, Sunday could be pretty damn well empty.

Generally speaking though, Sundays are much less crowded than Saturday to begin with. (And crowds on a typical Saturday are rarely an issue at ME, so Sunday would be even less of a concern).


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 23, 2020)

Nothing better than skiing right on to the chair and hammering runs on a Sunday at Mellen. If done right (an extra helping of Bravo and Exterminator laps) I feel like I got a full day in by lunch. It's nice to not feel bad about leaving the Valley at a time that makes it possible for me to get home and prepare for the week ahead.


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## tumbler (Jan 23, 2020)

I would not recommend Bravo, the rock/ice area is difficult for an intermediate.


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2020)

I think he was saying/thinking ski Bravo top and cut over to exterminator above the rock section.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 23, 2020)

1dog said:


> While always a crapshoot  - Mellen generally has less lines, or none at all. You might start at 8 AM when GMX opens then head to NorthRidge Chair at 9-, but its a non-holiday weekend, there is no football, and snow predicted so chances are a normal to above normal crowds.
> 
> Early , then ski 11:30-1 while the sardines pack Walts, you should be fine.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I watch the weather on my own and go by that. last couple days I've been watching the snow totals go down and rain become a possibility sat night,  but thats OK, still going to be great to be up there!


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Murphys should have fine cover/depth. They just finished making snow on it last weekend. Other than some bumps skier's right where they don't groom, it will be pretty flat. Midweek it isn't groomed every day, but on the weekend it often is frequently freshly groomed each night.
> 
> As for crowds this Sunday...well...we need to see what happens with the weather. I'm not particularly optimistic that this is going to be the powder day people were expecting just a few days ago. Right now the latest models are definitely showing some non-snow precip types for a period Saturday night. If that ends up becoming reality, Sunday could be pretty damn well empty.
> 
> Generally speaking though, Sundays are much less crowded than Saturday to begin with. (And crowds on a typical Saturday are rarely an issue at ME, so Sunday would be even less of a concern).



thanks, I agree on the weather, man it looked great 3-4 days ago, as soon as I bought the extra day at MT ellen, it went downhill lol. sorry everyone!


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## skiur (Jan 23, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I'm headed up Sunday and Monday, was hoping someone who skied recently could let me know how the conditions are. Me and my kids stick to the blue trails on both mountains but may try some of the less challenging single diamond trails this time.
> 
> We will be skiing both mountains over the two days.
> 
> ...





cdskier said:


> Murphys should have fine cover/depth. They just finished making snow on it last weekend. Other than some bumps skier's right where they don't groom, it will be pretty flat. Midweek it isn't groomed every day, but on the weekend it often is frequently freshly groomed each night.
> 
> As for crowds this Sunday...well...we need to see what happens with the weather. I'm not particularly optimistic that this is going to be the powder day people were expecting just a few days ago. Right now the latest models are definitely showing some non-snow precip types for a period Saturday night. If that ends up becoming reality, Sunday could be pretty damn well empty.
> 
> Generally speaking though, Sundays are much less crowded than Saturday to begin with. (And crowds on a typical Saturday are rarely an issue at ME, so Sunday would be even less of a concern).



Is Murphys glade not a glade or are you saying that sugarbush makes snow in the woods?


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 23, 2020)

It's not really a glade. I don't remember it very well but I think there's just a few bunches of trees here and there.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 23, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's not really a glade. I don't remember it very well but I think there's just a few bunches of trees here and there.



I believe it was one of several trails originally cut to be reminiscent of Western style open glades. Another example would be Sleeper off of Gate House. However when snow-making and more importantly grooming became big things those trees became cumbersome to maneuver a cat around and were thinned substantially.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 23, 2020)

skiur said:


> *Is Murphys glade not a glade *or are you saying that sugarbush makes snow in the woods?



Murphy's Glade is not even remotely close to gladed terrain, which confuses everyone the first time they ski Sugarbush, I'm sure.  Not sure why they havent changed the name to Murphy's Trail or Murphy's Run, but they 100% should.




CastlerockMRV said:


> *I believe it was one of several trails originally cut to be reminiscent of Western style open glades.*.......* those trees became cumbersome to maneuver a cat around and were thinned substantially*.



Well that really is a shame if that's the case.  

Still, the worst example of, _"Ski Area Bosses Destroying A Trail" _is and will forever go to Liftline at Stowe.


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2020)

Murphy's Glade is one of the original trails at Sugarbush.  It was cut and named after one of the original founders, Jack Murphy.  It is in fact a trail with trees that you ski in and around so it is actually a glade but a shade of it's original layout.  It was never thinned on purpose.  The thinning was a by product of blowing machine made snow and Ice on the trees bringing them down and also exposure to high winds.  Just because you don't feel it exactly meets your standard of a glade, that is no reason to change the traditional name that has been here since 1958.


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2020)

skiur said:


> Is Murphys glade not a glade or are you saying that sugarbush makes snow in the woods?



Looks like everyone else answered this before I got around to looking back at this thread to see this. I'm intrigued though that you picked up on the snow-making part but missed the mention of them grooming it as well. :lol: Making snow in the woods wouldn't be entirely impossible (but certainly not a great idea). Grooming in the woods however would take some serious skill (and miniature groomers!)


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2020)

Not sure I agree with Stowe Lift Line being the worst design screw up, but it's up there.   I mean it was already pretty wide back in 1960 when they put the double chair in.  

My vote for worst is definitely Double Dipper at Killington with Superstar and Ovation not too far behind it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> *It is in fact a trail with trees that you ski in and around so it is actually a glade*



Come on.  

A handful of pathetic lonely trees widely dispersed on a massively wide open octuple-lane freeway is not a glade to 99% of people.  LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlUEwhAahxs


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2020)

The trail was widened on both sides to fit the groomers and is not a massively wide.  The original trail was thinner with a lot more trees.  There is also more than just a handful of a lonely trees.  You exaggerate how it actually is.  You should ski it. 

I will never stop calling it Murphys Glade.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Making snow in the woods wouldn't be entirely impossible (but certainly not a great idea).



I often wonder how certain tree skiing that is right next to snowmaking trails indirectly benefits. And if a keen operations manager ever does this intentionally. When you see those snowmaking clouds kicking up you know some of it's going in there.

Woods tend to hold snow better in the spring (more shade) so it's not the worst idea in some cases.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 23, 2020)

^woods between powerline and ridge run are always skiable first at k because of the north ridge assault.


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2020)

After they blow steins, Christmas Tree woods is usually good to go for the season.  At lease on the left side.  ;-)


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## slatham (Jan 23, 2020)

I've always thought ski areas should cut glades on the down wind side of snowmaking trails. "Side Glades". Also a great way to introduce skiers to glade skiing without literally throwing them into the woods.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Grooming in the woods however would take some serious skill (and miniature groomers!)



Vail grooms some pretty heavily wooded terrain out in Blue Sky.  I don't think there's anything comparable in VT.


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## spring_mountain_high (Jan 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The trail was widened on both sides to fit the groomers and is not a massively wide.  The original trail was thinner with a lot more trees.  There is also more than just a handful of a lonely trees.  You exaggerate how it actually is.  You should ski it.
> 
> I will never stop calling it Murphys Glade.



so it sounds like you're telling us this benedork gomez guy speaks like he's the utmost authority on shit he knows nothing about...

huh...


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## mikec142 (Jan 23, 2020)

Personally I love Sleeper, Birch, and Murphy’s.  I love those widely spaced trees.  I can see both sides of things here.  While I have no issue referring to Murphy’s by its full name, I would say these three trails qualify as trails with trees.  Whereas Eden or Deeper Sleeper or Evans Woods, etc. classify as glades.  But it’s all good.  I like to ski it all.  My first choice warm up is birch to sleeper.

FWIW, of those three trails, Murphy’s is my least fav. It’s because I usually find the bottom to be very scrapey.  But I’m picking at nits here.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 23, 2020)

spring_mountain_high said:


> so it sounds like you're telling us this benedork gomez guy speaks like he's the utmost authority on shit he knows nothing about...



Wow!  Someone's really butthurt from that other thread.  LOL


EDIT:  And I am correct, Murphy's Glade would not be considered a "glade" by pretty much anyone who skis glades.  Also, it's a rather wide trail.  With scant trees on it.




mikec142 said:


> My first choice warm up is birch to sleeper.



We do the same thing.  Absolutely love that run.  Especially if the diamond sleeper part has some baby moguls.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2020)

spring_mountain_high said:


> so it sounds like you're telling us this benedork gomez guy speaks like he's the utmost authority on shit he knows nothing about...
> 
> huh...


That's not true.  BG IS the utmost authority on virtually any subject.  Just ask him.  Big brain on that guy. Tremendous IQ.  No one knows more about all the things than he does. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## HowieT2 (Jan 24, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Personally I love Sleeper, Birch, and Murphy’s.  I love those widely spaced trees.  I can see both sides of things here.  While I have no issue referring to Murphy’s by its full name, I would say these three trails qualify as trails with trees.  Whereas Eden or Deeper Sleeper or Evans Woods, etc. classify as glades.  But it’s all good.  I like to ski it all.  My first choice warm up is birch to sleeper.
> 
> FWIW, of those three trails, Murphy’s is my least fav. It’s because I usually find the bottom to be very scrapey.  But I’m picking at nits here.



same here.  dont know what it is about murphy's but I rarely hit it.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 24, 2020)

I like the wide spaced trees, makes for a prettier trail, and I'm not comfortable in a true glade just yet. Murphys, sleeper, and birches are all just more terrain that are great for my skill level and thats cool with me! just hoping for no rain and no bad winds at this point.

I seem to bring rain and wind with me every freakin time I come up north...:sad:  I was at bretton woods over new years, the mountain that never has wind effecting the lifts, right? they did the day I was there. quad shut down 1/2 hour into the day. at least we got a ton of powder though.


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## ducky (Jan 24, 2020)

Does this Endless Winter Pow-chaser belong to anyone here? Living the dream... (note the NJ plates)


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2020)

i should do that. i've looked into tear drop trailers, but my little rogue sport isn't really built to tow, and i dont have a garage/driveway and parking my car with a trailer on brooklyn streets is just a comical concept. pick up with a camper would be more doable. would be a pretty hardcore move, but would save me a lot of midnight driving if i could just comfortably sleep in parking lots.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 24, 2020)

I was thinking of adding a used Nissan Xterra to my vehicular line-up and potentially car camping.

I think I have higher aspirations now though.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 24, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> That's not true.  BG IS the utmost authority on virtually any subject.  Just ask him.  Big brain on that guy. Tremendous IQ.  *No one knows more about all the things than he does. *



PROJECTING: _psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person._


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 24, 2020)

ducky said:


> *Does this Endless Winter Pow-chaser belong to anyone here? Living the dream*... (note the NJ plates)



That.  Is.  Awesome.

Not really needed at Sugarbush, but it would be great for places with little to no lodging (e.g. Plattekill, Gore, etc.)


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That.  Is.  Awesome.
> 
> Not really needed at Sugarbush, but it would be great for places with little to no lodging (e.g. Plattekill, Gore, etc.)



my interest in teardrop trailers was piqued at belleayre two years ago. this couple had the coolest set up and were gracious enough to let my gf and i take a very close look. super cool. basically a small queen size bedroom on wheels with a kitchen that pops up out of the back of the trailer.


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## parahelia (Jan 24, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

We rented a truck camper just like that to travel around BC/Alberta last summer - it was amazing.  Truck campers are great because they can go almost anywhere and you’ve always got your kit with you.  After a hike we could take a beer out of the propane fridge, cook something on the stove, then take a shower.  Totally luxurious after decades of tent camping.  It even had a propane heater so we didn’t get cold when nighttime temps dropped below freezing. 

Definitely gave us the itch to get one for ski bumming....







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my interest in teardrop trailers was piqued at belleayre two years ago. this couple had the coolest set up and were gracious enough to let my gf and i take a very close look. super cool. basically a small queen size bedroom on wheels with a kitchen that pops up out of the back of the trailer.



Wife and I keep talking about a T@B teardrop trailer. When we were dating a got a fortune cookie that said I would spend my old age traveling around in a motor home.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 24, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *got a fortune cookie that said I would spend my old age traveling around in a motor home.*



Most oddly specific fortune cookie ever.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 24, 2020)

parahelia said:


> We rented a truck camper just like that to travel around BC/Alberta last summer - it was amazing.



I've noticed truck camper, pop-up camper, and RV ownership in some places out west is astronomically high, and I'm guessing it's because of all the amazing National & State parks out there.  Utah for instance, it seems like every third home you pass has an RV or camper of some form, many of the houses even have RV-specific garages.  Just seems bizarre to an easterner (but in a cool way).


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## Orca (Jan 24, 2020)

FYI, GMX is down tomorrow. Maintenance action, probably related to the lightning strike and running on diesel this season. Why choose Saturday? Don't know.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> PROJECTING: _psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person._


Yup, you're the foremost expert on psychology too BG aren't you?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## parahelia (Jan 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've noticed truck camper, pop-up camper, and RV ownership in some places out west is astronomically high, and I'm guessing it's because of all the amazing National & State parks out there.  Utah for instance, it seems like every third home you pass has an RV or camper of some form, many of the houses even have RV-specific garages.  Just seems bizarre to an easterner (but in a cool way).



No kidding - they’re everywhere.  There’s actually an Airbnb-like service where people rent out their campers while they’re sitting idle.  I looked into it (outdoorsy.com) but decided to go with one of the big rental companies; lots of fiddly systems that can go wrong with a camper.  But there were oodles of people renting out their personal campers out of Calgary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WinS (Jan 25, 2020)

Orca said:


> FYI, GMX is down tomorrow. Maintenance action, probably related to the lightning strike and running on diesel this season. Why choose Saturday? Don't know.



Orca, you don't do an optional maintenance on a Saturday. We had a small electrical fire in the upper terminal and the lift maintenance  crew have been doing a great job of getting things repaired and hopefully can have it completed today.  Nothing related to lightning strike of running on diesel.


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## Orca (Jan 25, 2020)

WinS said:


> Orca, you don't do an optional maintenance on a Saturday. We had a small electrical fire in the upper terminal and the lift maintenance  crew have been doing a great job of getting things repaired and hopefully can have it completed today.  Nothing related to lightning strike of running on diesel.



Fair enough, you are right. I should not have casually speculated as to why GMX is down, but it has been operating in a suboptimal mode. Perhaps when such things are put on the website, "_unanticipated_ maintenance action" would help readers understand. You might even receive more goodwill from anyone frustrated by the closing using the words "we apologize that GMX will be down for unanticipated maintenance are are hopeful to return it to service..."


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 25, 2020)

Orca said:


> Fair enough, you are right. I should not have casually speculated as to why GMX is down, but it has been operating in a suboptimal mode. Perhaps when such things are put on the website, "_unanticipated_ maintenance action" would help readers understand. You might even receive more goodwill from anyone frustrated by the closing using the words "we apologize that GMX will be down for unanticipated maintenance are are hopeful to return it to service..."



You were just hired as the new web services reporter. Please report to Human Resources in the morning... :lol::lol::lol:


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## WinS (Jan 25, 2020)

Orca said:


> Fair enough, you are right. I should not have casually speculated as to why GMX is down, but it has been operating in a suboptimal mode. Perhaps when such things are put on the website, "_unanticipated_ maintenance action" would help readers understand. You might even receive more goodwill from anyone frustrated by the closing using the words "we apologize that GMX will be down for unanticipated maintenance are are hopeful to return it to service..."



Valid point. We did get GMX open at 8:42am. Our lift team did an incredible job of problem solving and finding the solutions to get GMX up and running as quickly as they did. When I first heard the news, I feared it might have been a lot worse that it was and we might have been down for days in not weeks. I just came back from ME and it is busy but no lift lines. The fear of it  being down for the day may have moved more over to LP today where it is busier.


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## jaybird (Jan 25, 2020)

Nice job resolving the GMX issue.
Team Win!


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## ducky (Jan 25, 2020)

Along the lines of renting an RV, my wife went fat biking on the Rikert Trails at Middlebury today. $15 to rent a maybe $1000 fat bike and $15 for the trail pass. Would seem that renting vs buying is the smarter play when you consider how much mud and salt are kicked up hanging off the back of a vehicle during transport. I guess it depends on how often you ride. A great sport for ski fitness and another thing to do on snow.

She is on the board of the Mad River Riders and always checking out potential options to improve riding here in the MRV. Rikert and Burke's Kingdom Trails can charge usage fees, whereas the MRR depend on donations to ride the terrain they improve on public forest land in the MRV. If you can, consider a donation.  http://www.madriverriders.com


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## Orca (Jan 25, 2020)

A buddy of mine says SB was a sh*t show today. Horrible lift lines, super crowded trails, overrun lodges. He said everyone was talking IKON on the lift. Anyone else have any observations to report?


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## MorningWoods (Jan 25, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Orca said:


> A buddy of mine says SB was a sh*t show today. Horrible lift lines, super crowded trails, overrun lodges. He said everyone was talking IKON on the lift. Anyone else have any observations to report?



It was busy. No woods in play and very thin natural trails had all the traffic on the groomers. Layer in the report that GMX would be down and I think you had some extra stress. But sh!t show. That’s a stretch. I got a bunch of skiing in before 10. Lines were long between 10-1. But never outrageous. I think people just like to B!tch. I went to Rumbles $20 all you can eat and got a table for 7 at noon. 


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> It was busy. No woods in play and very thin natural trails had all the traffic on the groomers. Layer in the report that GMX would be down and I think you had some extra stress. But sh!t show. That’s a stretch. I got a bunch of skiing in before 10. Lines were long between 10-1. But never outrageous. I think people just like to B!tch. I went to Rumbles $20 all you can eat and got a table for 7 at noon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agree with this. I think the fact that gmx planned to be down definitely shifted some extra people to LP. Lines were long by sugarbush standards, but I still never waited more than 10 minutes even so. Getting woods in play will definitely help disburse crowds better too.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2020)

How are woods not in play? Mad river is fully open and I was skiing strattons woods yesterday. They were a little thin but totally skiable with rock skis.

Worst thing about Lincoln peak is that most woods are so low elevation except for heavens gate... I’d assume the mount Ellen woods are fine?


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## MorningWoods (Jan 26, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> How are woods not in play? Mad river is fully open and I was skiing strattons woods yesterday. They were a little thin but totally skiable with rock skis.
> 
> Worst thing about Lincoln peak is that most woods are so low elevation except for heavens gate... I’d assume the mount Ellen woods are fine?



Not in play for vast majority of people that don’t carry multiple pairs of skis or have the skills to navigate thin cover. I knew when I posted that there would be a flurry of posts about how “I’m skiing the woods”. I just don’t think that is a representative sample of the people you need to ski in the woods to thin the traffic. 


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> How are woods not in play? Mad river is fully open



I had that exact same question. I'm sure they're skiable..


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Not in play for vast majority of people that don’t carry multiple pairs of skis or have the skills to navigate thin cover. I knew when I posted that there would be a flurry of posts about how “I’m skiing the woods”. I just don’t think that is a representative sample of the people you need to ski in the woods to thin the traffic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Completely agree with you. There’s a distinct difference between being skiable for the hardcore tree skiers vs being enjoyable enough for normal people to the point where it gets people off the trails. I was in the woods a bit both yesterday and today. I don’t blame most people at all for not being in there. I don’t like having to be quite that cautious. Definitely thin and lots of things to watch out for. I’m sure higher elevations are better, but those are also tighter at LP so they don’t pull in as wide of an audience.

Usually I see tons of people going into and coming out of the woods. I didn’t see that yesterday so that tells me I’m not exactly crazy and neither is morningwoods.

Ps...we really lucked out with this storm I think. Skiing very well today. This denser stuff is good for the base. Also empty out here compared to yesterday. And yet conditions are better. Go figure...


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Woods are always in play they just suck and only an idiot would ski them thsnks 


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## Orca (Jan 26, 2020)

Woods right now are a mixed bag. Snowpack is thin. Depends on the woods.

You'll have the most fun if you are willing to let your skis get acquainted with rocks, logs, dirt, and moss. It is that type of January.


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## ducky (Jan 26, 2020)

None of the locals are in the woods yet. Even the skimo groups are staying away. Patrol doesn't want to be in there either.


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## WinS (Jan 26, 2020)

Let me get ahead of rumors.  Starting tomorrow we will be running Inverness instead of GMX on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday instead of GMX. It will open at 8am as will Northridge. As you know the lift was struck by lightning this summer and neither Poma nor their subcontractor AB&B has come up with a solution. As you know we have been running on diesel since opening day. However, this is stressing the lift, and we do not like transporting diesel fuel up the mountain every day risking a spill. If we can not get a solution we will plan to install a drive. In the meantime running GMX three days less each day is a good solution. We understand that we are adding some minutes to accessing the upper mountain, but that can be done as you know by riding Inverness and taking Northridge Expressway over to the Northridge chair. Having Northridge open a 8am means you only have to ride Inverness once if you wish. We will clear GMX every day as a back-up. We apologize for this but we think it is the best solution in the near term when we have the lightest visitations at ME.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2020)

WinS said:


> we have been running on diesel since opening day. However, this is stressing the lift, and we do not like transporting diesel fuel up the mountain every day risking a spill.



Curious how many gallons of diesel per day does it take to run a lift?


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## Plowboy (Jan 26, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> Woods ate always in play they just suck and only an idiot would ski them thsnks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear Hughy's is deep and ready! LMAO


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

WinS said:


> Let me get ahead of rumors.  Starting tomorrow we will be running Inverness instead of GMX on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday instead of GMX. It will open at 8am as will Northridge. As you know the lift was struck by lightning this summer and neither Poma nor their subcontractor AB&B has come up with a solution. As you know we have been running on diesel since opening day. However, this is stressing the lift, and we do not like transporting diesel fuel up the mountain every day risking a spill. If we can not get a solution we will plan to install a drive. In the meantime running GMX three days less each day is a good solution. We understand that we are adding some minutes to accessing the upper mountain, but that can be done as you know by riding Inverness and taking Northridge Expressway over to the Northridge chair. Having Northridge open a 8am means you only have to ride Inverness once if you wish. We will clear GMX every day as a back-up. We apologize for this but we think it is the best solution in the near term when we have the lightest visitations at ME.



That's cool really a minor inconvenience IMO... nice to have a back up plan that works


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## WinS (Jan 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Curious how many gallons of diesel per day does it take to run a lift?



Approximately 100. GMX has two diesel motors. That is why we are able to run it and at about the same speed as on electical. One motor runs the lift and the other is the auxiliary.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

I don’t care where you ski or what you ski on   Go for itISent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> I don’t care where you ski or what you ski on I don’t like trashing my gear I use it too much it’s the weekend chumps pounding the bare ground  and then  bragging about it there has not  has been safe or decent tree skiing yet



you already posted "only an idiot would ski them". Again, MRG has 100% terrain open next door with zero snowmaking. Maybe you're not a great technical skier in the woods... that's fine


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2020)

Mrg skiers  are skiing crap go see for yourself g


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2020)

I bet I’m more technical than you  any day anywhere 


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2020)

yup there’s been no safe or decent tree skiing this season...


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

I wonder what you consider technical skiing if not avoiding obstacles on challenging terrain with variable conditions...

Almost as if I haven't been keeping a very close eye on MRG conditions and know they are pretty sweet (if technical) right now. You must be kidding me or just a blow hard.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2020)

Looks like your hitting bottom not impressed. Nice try 


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yup there’s been no safe or decent tree skiing this season...View attachment 26112



Where's that pic? I want to say it looks familiar but I can't place it.

You were skiing West Pilot glades @ Stratton and all the other woods just a day or two ago,  no?

I would have too

I'm going somewhere Wednesday and somewhere in NH Thursday. MRG is a top 3 option for Wednesday. I got 2 passes to use this season so wouldn't be a bad idea. Let's see how the upslope goes next day or two.


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## ducky (Jan 26, 2020)

Ha ha. Not a person at SB gets through the trees with same finesse or speed than Street. Ask Egan. He's only been doing 120 days a year for the last 30+ years.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ha ha. Not a person at SB gets through the trees with same finesse or speed than Street. Ask Egan. He's only been doing 120 days a year for the last 30+ years.



I don't doubt it. Just doesn't come across that way calling MRG current conditions trash (when 100% terrain open and looks beautiful and MRG is saying it skis sweet) and then claiming to be #1 technical skier.

Some people are paradoxical though.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2020)

That pic is beaver pond glades at Jay on 1/18. I skied all the Stratton woods on 1/25. They skied fine, just thin. More fun than groomers. Safer now packed down vs right after the snow. Treacherous when it looks fresh but it’s full of snakes. 

West Pilot


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## ducky (Jan 26, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I don't doubt it. Just doesn't come across that way calling MRG current conditions trash (when 100% terrain open and looks beautiful and MRG is saying it skis sweet)



With MRG regulars last night (both eternally optimistic shareholders) who told me it was "rugged" and "grassy" ...but the 2" today made a big difference for sure. Might go Tuesday on my teles and see.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I don't doubt it. Just doesn't come across that way calling MRG current conditions trash (when 100% terrain open and looks beautiful and MRG is saying it skis sweet) and then claiming to be #1 technical skier.



As for looks, it is quite easy for something to "look" far better than it really is. Where do you see MRG saying the woods are skiing sweet anyway? 

I'm a bit amazed that people that haven't been there recently are questioning people that either live in the valley or at least ski in the valley quite a bit...


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 26, 2020)

A trip report was posted only a few days ago including photos of Paradise and other glades steeps and the only thing that looked rocky was Lower Antelope. I find MRG to have the most detailed and honest snow report in the game and they've been saying it's sweet albeit thin base. The webcam clearly depicts the woods are covered in snow regardless of the depth. What else is there to know?

Different standards for different folks. It's frankly retarded to start an argument because I said I'd be skiing woods up there right now.

So some of you wouldn't... I don't give a shit... I happen to like it bony and hairy when I'm not skiing powder

Have fun debating would you ski the woods right now vs. not, I'll check back in...


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## MorningWoods (Jan 26, 2020)

cdskier said:


> As for looks, it is quite easy for something to "look" far better than it really is. Where do you see MRG saying the woods are skiing sweet anyway?
> 
> I'm a bit amazed that people that haven't been there recently are questioning people that either live in the valley or at least ski in the valley quite a bit...



I know right. Anyway, today’s snow made a HUGE difference. Perfect recipe. And looks like some more has fallen since closure. Took a ride down Rumble, was pleasantly surprised how much snow it was holding.  Maybe next weekend will see the cr lift running. 


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## Tonyr (Jan 26, 2020)

cdskier said:


> As for looks, it is quite easy for something to "look" far better than it really is. Where do you see MRG saying the woods are skiing sweet anyway?
> 
> I'm a bit amazed that people that haven't been there recently are questioning people that either live in the valley or at least ski in the valley quite a bit...



I'm not sure how it looks up there now but I was at MRG last weekend. The glades were pretty full of snow. Some spots were icy underneath but the snow in the woods were good, much better than the non gladed trails which were scratchy underneath. The trees to the skiers left of Paradise had knee deep snow in some areas.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2020)

WinS said:


> *Approximately 100. *GMX has two diesel motors. That is why we are able to run it and at about the same speed as on electical. One motor runs the lift and the other is the auxiliary.



Wow, that's not bad at all, I definitely would have lost an Over/Under bet on that guess.


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## Hawk (Jan 26, 2020)

I skied all over this weekend.  Castlerock, paradise, Heweys, gangstas, Christmas tree woods, and some low angel stuff.  At the best case there is about 18" of snow and in most areas less.  I hit all kinds of shit.  logs stumps rocks.  Enough so that I gave up and just skied trails.  At sugarbush and mad river there really is not enough snow just yet and if you do ski the woods you are risking injury.  I don't care how good you are.

The good news was that we didn't really have any rain this weekend.  Maybe a touch at the bottom but a total net gain with mostly sleet, grapple and snow.


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## Plowboy (Jan 26, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ha ha. Not a person at SB gets through the trees with same finesse or speed than Street. Ask Egan. He's only been doing 120 days a year for the last 30+ years.


Ha ha is right!! Street has been rippin it up at SB since 1982. Doesn't have to claim to be # 1 technical...He is # 1 finesse and speed in the trees though!!!!


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## mikec142 (Jan 26, 2020)

ducky said:


> Does this Endless Winter Pow-chaser belong to anyone here? Living the dream... (note the NJ plates)
> 
> View attachment 26081



Not mine, but passed him driving south on 87.  Great looking truck.  Huge in person.  Felt like it was bigger than my first NYC apartment.


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## NYDB (Jan 27, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> you already posted "only an idiot would ski them". Again, MRG has 100% terrain open next door with zero snowmaking. Maybe you're not a great technical skier in the woods... that's fine





STREETSKIER said:


> I bet I’m more technical than you  any day anywhere
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ski off?


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 27, 2020)

Nope. He wins. I'm not going to beat the best skier at Sugarbush.

I figured my comment would be taken as a joke by most level-headed individuals. Wonder what it's like inside the head of the best skier who's insecure about that fact on an anonymous internet forum...


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## mtl1076 (Jan 27, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> you already posted "only an idiot would ski them". Again, MRG has 100% terrain open next door with zero snowmaking. Maybe you're not a great technical skier in the woods... that's fine



hey hey now, MRG makes snow.....


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 27, 2020)

Sunday was a fantastic day at Mt. Ellen! Groomers were fast and grippy and skied the best they have all year IMO, also early runs down Exterminator were excellent before getting skied off around 10:30-11. We also had lots of fun jibbing around Walts too and lapped that 3 or 4 times to end the day. Probably the best trail at the Bush for "my legs are shot but I still want to mess around" type skiing IMO.


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## ducky (Jan 27, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Nope. He wins. I'm not going to beat the best skier at Sugarbush.
> 
> I figured my comment would be taken as a joke by most level-headed individuals. Wonder what it's like inside the head of the best skier who's insecure about that fact on an anonymous internet forum...



He didn't say it. I did about him. You should really know who it is you are trashing.

Today was the best day of the year. Even got in the woods up high.

Tuna, if you can make it up to MRG Weds, it will def be a good day to use those tickets.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 27, 2020)

(dead horse) :smash:

thinking about it for Wednesday though Ducky, leaning more towards it after your recommendation. I was thinking do VT Friday on the way home from NH but I think Wednesday should be the nicer conditions


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## pinnoke (Jan 27, 2020)

Castlerock lift to spin tomorrow!


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## ducky (Jan 27, 2020)

MRG has $3.50 lift tickets tomorrow, Tuesday.


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## WinS (Jan 27, 2020)

ducky said:


> MRG has $3.50 lift tickets tomorrow, Tuesday.




Happy Birthday neighbor!


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## smac75 (Jan 27, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> Castlerock lift to spin tomorrow!



Makes me a bit sad - it was so damn good and untracked yesterday.  That’ll all change quickly by the weekend!


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## MorningWoods (Jan 28, 2020)

How old is the GMX lift? I could have sworn I rode the old super slow lift that terminated between slide brook and north ridge around 2000. The Poma website says it was installed in 1990 and the first 1100 ft per minute chair. I think that’s wrong. 








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## tumbler (Jan 28, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> How old is the GMX lift? I could have sworn I rode the old super slow lift that terminated between slide brook and north ridge around 2000. The Poma website says it was installed in 1990 and the first 1100 ft per minute chair. I think that’s wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was the first GMX that is now Northridge.  It was moved when ASC put Slide Brook in and moved GMX to Northridge and installed the "Slug" from the base area to bottom of Northridge and Slide Brook.  Win's group installed GMX 2.0.


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## cdskier (Jan 28, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> How old is the GMX lift? I could have sworn I rode the old super slow lift that terminated between slide brook and north ridge around 2000. The Poma website says it was installed in 1990 and the first 1100 ft per minute chair. I think that’s wrong.



Technically it is not wrong, however that also is not the current GMX. The 1990 GMX was moved to North Ridge in 1995. The current GMX was installed in 2002. From 1995 to 2001 you had the slow fixed grip Green Mountain quad.


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## PearlRiverDad (Jan 28, 2020)

*Sugarbush for groomers?????? Let me know*



bdfreetuna said:


> (dead horse) :smash:
> 
> thinking about it for Wednesday though Ducky, leaning more towards it after your recommendation. I was thinking do VT Friday on the way home from NH but I think Wednesday should be the nicer conditions



Hi All

I am thinking of playing hookie with my son and skiing at Sugarbush on Friday. I am an intermediate skier and prefer long winding groomers.........Is this a good place for that? If not - What's a better option in VT? We live near the Catskills - but based on recent weather we want to head north for better snow


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## flakeydog (Jan 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Technically it is not wrong, however that also is not the current GMX. The 1990 GMX was moved to North Ridge in 1995. The current GMX was installed in 2002. From 1995 to 2001 you had the slow fixed grip Green Mountain quad.



If you are feeling nostalgic, you can still ride the "slug" up at Jay- now the Metro quad.  Still a slow ride to nowhere though.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 28, 2020)

PearlRiverDad said:


> Hi All
> 
> * I am an intermediate skier and prefer long winding groomers.........Is this a good place for that? If not - What's a better option in VT?* We live near the Catskills - but based on recent weather we want to head north for better snow



I'd suggest Sugarbush & Stowe are the best spots for intermediate,_ "long winding groomers"_ in Vermont.  I'd personally go with Stowe #1 for that, but you'll love Sugarbush too if that's what you're after.


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## drjeff (Jan 28, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd suggest Sugarbush & Stowe are the best spots for intermediate,_ "long winding groomers"_ in Vermont.  I'd personally go with Stowe #1 for that, but you'll love Sugarbush too if that's what you're after.



Really can't go wrong with those 2 choices for what the OP is looking for.

Heck, if it's an option for the OP, just stay in Waterbury and hit both of them up


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## MorningWoods (Jan 28, 2020)

PearlRiverDad said:


> Hi All
> 
> I am thinking of playing hookie with my son and skiing at Sugarbush on Friday. I am an intermediate skier and prefer long winding groomers.........Is this a good place for that? If not - What's a better option in VT? We live near the Catskills - but based on recent weather we want to head north for better snow



Usually when we have visitors looking for that we head to Mount Ellen @ Sugarbush. You can definitely hit both mountains in one day without an issue though. Maybe you’ll get lucky and the slidebrook lift will open up.  It’s got to be getting close. Makes it just a little easier to get between mountains. 


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 28, 2020)

Skied Mount Ellen on Sunday and Lincoln Peak Monday. Awesome conditions both days, although visibility at the peaks was a bit limited but doable. We skied pretty much all the blues on both mountains, only Got on lower organ grinder and water fall and sleeper chutes for diamond trails. They easily got 7 inches of snow between Sunday and Monday, both days were what I would call powder days. It snowed most of the day Sunday. rim run, Jester, and the harder blues like Snowball, moonshine and spring fling  were awesome. Which way and Joe's cruiser were so silky smooth Sunday morning it was unreal.

walts trail and lower domino were a little thin in a few spots between the bumps but otherwise great. Murphy's was left umgroomed for Monday, it was bumps covered in powder..

If you were a strong intermediate skier like me and my kids looking to do all the blues and get some good practice in the bumps in great conditions Sunday and Monday were the days to be there.

Best of all I never waited in a line at all either day.

I can't speak to the conditions of the woods or the harder diamonds as we did not do them. 

Last two days truly spoiled me. I've done 10 trips this year to four different Mountains including Bretton Woods during winter storm gage over New Year's and these are the best two days I've had by far. I'll be back one more time by the end of the year, if it's half as good I'll be happy.


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## mikec142 (Jan 28, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Skied Mount Ellen on Sunday and Lincoln Peak Monday. Awesome conditions both days, although visibility at the peaks was a bit limited but doable. We skied pretty much all the blues on both mountains, only Got on lower organ grinder and water fall and sleeper chutes for diamond trails. They easily got 7 inches of snow between Sunday and Monday, both days were what I would call powder days. It snowed most of the day Sunday. rim run, Jester, and the harder blues like Snowball, moonshine and spring fling  were awesome. Which way and Joe's cruiser were so silky smooth Sunday morning it was unreal.
> 
> walts trail and lower domino were a little thin in a few spots between the bumps but otherwise great. Murphy's was left umgroomed for Monday, it was bumps covered in powder..
> 
> ...



Love hearing this!  Glad you enjoyed.


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## djd66 (Jan 28, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Usually when we have visitors looking for that we head to Mount Ellen @ Sugarbush. You can definitely hit both mountains in one day without an issue though. Maybe you’ll get lucky and the slidebrook lift will open up.  It’s got to be getting close. Makes it just a little easier to get between mountains.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Speaking of Slidebrook,... what ever happened to "Slidebrook87"?  I kind of miss him and all the excitement he brought to the forum! :lol:


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 28, 2020)

View attachment 26117

my 2 kids at the top of Mt Ellen about 11 or so....picture dosent do the snow coming down justice but you get the idea:grin: .


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## WinS (Jan 28, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> View attachment 26117
> 
> my 2 kids at the top of Mt Ellen about 11 or so....picture dosent do the snow coming down justice but you get the idea:grin: .



I am delighted you enjoyed your days here.


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## dustyroads (Jan 29, 2020)

Win,
My question is probably not so cut and dry, but is it possible to give maximum wind speeds and wind directions for Bravo, Heaven's Gate, and North Ridge before they shut down?


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Speaking of Slidebrook,... what ever happened to "Slidebrook87"?  I kind of miss him and all the excitement he brought to the forum! :lol:



Back on 12/29 he went on another rant about the Slidebrook lift and people including myself started calling him out.  That when he hit us with that Poetry and then disappeared.  Prior to that, I took a guess and told him to have his father sell his Claybrook unit and move to North.  I get the feeling I was not far off.


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## Skrn (Jan 29, 2020)

Anybody skied Castlerock chair since it is open? Wonder what the condition is back. Thinking about coming this weekend. Thanks!


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm not gone. I just haven't been too active recently. I am part of other skiing blogs that aren't quite as toxic so I tend to spend most of my time there. I'm quite glad Castlerock is finally open, but still waiting on Slide Brook. With the snow coming next week, I can't imagine it will be too much longer. Does anyone know how Castlerock has been skiing ever since the lift opened? I'm probably going to head up there on Friday and ski Liftline and CR Run.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 29, 2020)

In all my years here I've never thought of this place as toxic.  Sure, we occasionally have a clueless member show up trying to troll on a given topic but they're usually gone once people start calling them out for their BS.  The vast majority of people on AZ are friendly.


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## chuckstah (Jan 29, 2020)

Skrn said:


> Anybody skied Castlerock chair since it is open? Wonder what the condition is back. Thinking about coming this weekend. Thanks!


I skied everything off it this am. Nice soft bumps everywhere. Bit a scratch on Castleroock run. A few rocks to dodge on the steeps. 

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## nhskier1969 (Jan 29, 2020)

Since their sale to Alterra, does anyone know if SB will try to stay open to the first weekend of May?


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2020)

Win has stated multiple times that is the goal.  He likes to ski on the Cinco de Mayo - Kentucky Derby Weekend.  ;-)


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## Cornhead (Jan 29, 2020)

Nice score Chuck, looked like a beautiful day to boot. Warren Miller day?

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## WinS (Jan 29, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Since their sale to Alterra, does anyone know if SB will try to stay open to the first weekend of May?



Yes. They do not micro-manage. This is our decision. Unfortunately, the NSAA Board meeting conflicts with that weekend so I will have to leave it to you to close out the season that weekend.  I will watch the webcam though.

Blowing a bunch of snow now and into Friday on Stein's, Upper Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee Run so we get to May.


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Win,
> My question is probably not so cut and dry, but is it possible to give maximum wind speeds and wind directions for Bravo, Heaven's Gate, and North Ridge before they shut down?



Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that.  When we see a forecast of 40 MPH or more we get nervous, but it has as much about the direction of the wind as the speed. If the wind is coming right down the line we can operate safely at higher winds than if it coming across the lift line. Our lift mechanics make the call, and they are looking a how chairs are swaying.  You do not want a chair                                                   swaying into a tower or oming into the top terminal in way that could get in hung up on the Bullwheel.  Winds are really tricky. There are times when it can be very windy say at Tower 15 on Bravo and there will be no wind at the top of Heaven's Gate.  As the wind picks up the lift mechanics do all they can to keep a lift running safely. For instance, they can slow it down which can help.  But once they notice any action that creates a safety risk they shut in down.  This is not scientific.  It is sound and experienced judgment.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 29, 2020)

WinS said:


> Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that.  When we see a forecast of 40 MPH or more we get nervous, but it has as much about the direction of the wind as the speed. If the wind is coming right down the line we can operate safely at higher winds than if it coming across the lift line. Our lift mechanics make the call, and they are looking a how chairs are swaying.  You do not want a chair                                                   swaying into a tower or oming into the top terminal in way that could get in hung up on the Bullwheel.  Winds are really tricky. There are times when it can be very windy say at Tower 15 on Bravo and there will be no wind at the top of Heaven's Gate.  As the wind picks up the lift mechanics do all they can to keep a lift running safely. For instance, they can slow it down which can help.  But once they notice any action that creates a safety risk they shut in down.  This is not scientific.  It is sound and experienced judgment.



I believe Doppelmayr lifts are equipped with a wind monitoring system that will slow or stop the lift when the wind reaches a certain level. Do lift mechanics ever use this or do they only make the decision based off of their own judgement?


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 29, 2020)

Great to hear. I do usually get to Sugarbush once a year in April. It may even be my favorite spring time mountain over Jay. Close call though.

BTW I did get up to Mad River Glen today and had a rippin' time. My wife wanted me to take a lot of photos, and since it was a beautiful day and I was skiing great powder in the woods I took quite a few pics. Check later for a trip report posted to that sub forum.


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## chuckstah (Jan 29, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Nice score Chuck, looked like a beautiful day to boot. Warren Miller day?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


You know it. MRG and Bush for $3.50. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Great to hear. I do usually get to Sugarbush once a year in April. It may even be my favorite spring time mountain over Jay. Close call though.
> 
> BTW I did get up to Mad River Glen today and had a rippin' time. My wife wanted me to take a lot of photos, and since it was a beautiful day and I was skiing great powder in the woods I took quite a few pics. Check later for a trip report posted to that sub forum.



glad to hear "great powder in the woods" and "mad river glen" in the same sentence - remember, the woods in the mad river valley will kill you right now  . i will be at mrg or sugarbush on saturday. hoping for mrg. my girlfriend doesnt have a ticket there, but she usually only skis one day in a weekend. thinking drive up friday night to rutland hotel, head up to mrg saturday morning, park the girl in general starks, back to rutland, then to stratton in the morning to ski with the lady. wanted magic on sunday but as this nor'easter fizzled so did my plan.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 29, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> glad to hear "great powder in the woods" and "mad river glen" in the same sentence - remember, the woods in the mad river valley will kill you right now  . i will be at mrg or sugarbush on saturday. hoping for mrg. my girlfriend doesnt have a ticket there, but she usually only skis one day in a weekend. thinking drive up friday night to rutland hotel, head up to mrg saturday morning, park the girl in general starks, back to rutland, then to stratton in the morning to ski with the lady. wanted magic on sunday but as this nor'easter fizzled so did my plan.


That's a plan.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 29, 2020)

Here ya go, this one's dedicated to all the idiots out there

https://forums.alpinezone.com/showt...020-unskiable-dangerous-quot-idiots-only-quot


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## tumbler (Jan 29, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes. They do not micro-manage. This is our decision. Unfortunately, the NSAA Board meeting conflicts with that weekend so I will have to leave it to you to close out the season that weekend.  I will watch the webcam though.
> 
> Blowing a bunch of snow now and into Friday on Stein's, Upper Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee Run so we get to May.



I wish there were a couple more weeks of resurfacing then focusing on the spring stockpiles.


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I wish there were a couple more weeks of resurfacing then focusing on the spring stockpiles.



The mountain is skiing beautifully with the natural snow.


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I believe Doppelmayr lifts are equipped with a wind monitoring system that will slow or stop the lift when the wind reaches a certain level. Do lift mechanics ever use this or do they only make the decision based off of their own judgement?



Their own judgment. It is not just about the wind level.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 29, 2020)

Win... a question out of personal interest and you already know I'm a cheapskate -- what are the chances that Sugarbush continues sponsoring Warren Miller movies with a free early/late season pass?

It's basically the only way I ski there unless I use a Ski VT pass (maybe I will do that too)

That's also basically the only way I'll bother showing up to Warren Miller movies


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 29, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> what are the chances that Sugarbush continues sponsoring Warren Miller movies with a free early/late season pass?




Unless there's some multi-year agreement, I think we know the answer to that!


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## ducky (Jan 30, 2020)

Re woods: Monday's very dense 4-6" really helped. It was also not an elevation snowfall and Steins got as much as Ripcord. Did some trees at CR (hiked) and off HG and CR on Tuesday, but really the lower angle woods were better and you did not find as much shwack. One note; MRG's woods are trimmed each year whereas SB's, being GMNF, are not - it makes a difference. Remember that some natural trails like Tumbler and Cliffs only just reopened due to base depth, though in comparison, Lower Birdland is covered.

Yesterday was particularly nice under blue skies and Ripcord had been groomed. Guns running all day on Steins, SF, and Snowball.

Conditions are very good considering how little snow we've had. Day 50 for me.


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## Howitzer (Jan 30, 2020)

Win Smith on the Storm Skiing Podcast. Some good material here for the faithful.

https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-11-sugarbush-president-and


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## Skrn (Jan 30, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> I skied everything off it this am. Nice soft bumps everywhere. Bit a scratch on Castleroock run. A few rocks to dodge on the steeps. View attachment 26120View attachment 26121View attachment 26122
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



Thank you!


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## pinnoke (Jan 30, 2020)

Howitzer said:


> Win Smith on the Storm Skiing Podcast. Some good material here for the faithful.
> 
> https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-11-sugarbush-president-and



Thanks Howitzer...good insights whether already familiar or a bit more obscure to the listener.
Conditions and weather still beautiful (today, Thursday) all over Lincoln Peak (I haven't been to ME this week)!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 30, 2020)

wooooo girlfriend is bailing on this weekends plan, which allows me to smuggs and mad river. sick.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 30, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wooooo girlfriend is bailing on this weekends plan, which allows me to smuggs and mad river. sick.



I'm gonna be real curious to hear how Smuggs is doing with the passes I'm holding. I assume pretty darn good. Too bad about your GF, I bet she was gonna love sitting in MRG base lodge watching you lap single chair all day


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## cdskier (Jan 30, 2020)

Howitzer said:


> Win Smith on the Storm Skiing Podcast. Some good material here for the faithful.
> 
> https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-11-sugarbush-president-and



Great interview. I don't think there was anything particularly unexpected here, but still a lot of good stuff to hear.


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## ducky (Jan 31, 2020)

Today's NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/...?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

Liftblog.org reports that Inverness will run in place of GMX based on this from the SB Report:



> A message from Win Smith - "As many of you know, this summer the Green Mountain Express Quad was hit by lightning. All issues associated with the lightning strike have been resolved, except an issue with a component that controls the electric motor. As a result, we have been running GMX on diesel fuel since opening day. In an effort to balance the guest experience with our environmental values, we have decided to run Inverness and Northridge as the 8:00 AM lifts Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays moving forward. GMX will still run Thursday – Sunday. We apologize for the inconvenience, but believe this is the correct short term solution until GMX can be brought back on with electric."


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Liftblog.org reports that Inverness will run in place of GMX based on this from the SB Report:



Yes, on Monday-Wednesdays only...Win already posted that here all the way back in post #6971 in this thread 

https://forums.alpinezone.com/showt...-Thread-quot?p=1035395&viewfull=1#post1035395


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## rocks860 (Jan 31, 2020)

I’m heading up on the 8th of February for my yearly week at sugarbush, can’t wait!


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 31, 2020)

I skied SB Thursday and Friday and since I am not skiing this weekend I'll tell you what skied well.  Down low, I would recommend hitting Lexi's and Moonshine.  Both had nice soft bumps the past two days.  But probably get skied out by noon Sat.  Woods are in Play above 2,000Ft. but especially about 2,500. If you are going into Slide Brook, entrance one skied really nice, got a bit thing at the very bottom.  2nd entrance again skied well, but after the cat track I would say you got 500ft vertical before its real thing.  At Castlerock, Castle rock run, Cotillion ski really good.  Middle earth was bumped up pretty good but you have the normal choke point on middle earth 2/3rds the way down.   By Friday afternoon both headwalls on Liftline are down to rock.  I didn't hit any of the woods around Castlerock but there is enough snow in there, just take it slow.
Have fun.


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## shadyjay (Jan 31, 2020)

From this afternoon's snow report:



> Slide Brook Express opens Sat. Feb 1st from 10:00AM - 3:15PM.




Where's our friend SB87 now???  Maybe he just can't contain his excitement!


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> From this afternoon's snow report:
> 
> 
> 
> Where's our friend SB87 now???  Maybe he just can't contain his excitement!



I foresee Slidebrook riding his beloved lift back and forth  all day with a huge smile.  I will pause a minute today just after pinball alley and watch the lift to see if he goes by.  ;-)


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## WinS (Feb 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I foresee Slidebrook riding his beloved lift back and forth  all day with a huge smile.  I will pause a minute today just after pinball alley and watch the lift to see if he goes by.  ;-)



In Walt's having an Eggterminator


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 1, 2020)

I think he’s at whistler riding the peak to peak lift  


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## smac75 (Feb 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I foresee Slidebrook riding his beloved lift back and forth  all day with a huge smile.  I will pause a minute today just after pinball alley and watch the lift to see if he goes by.  ;-)



Hahaha good one


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## Orca (Feb 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I foresee Slidebrook riding his beloved lift back and forth  all day with a huge smile.  I will pause a minute today just after pinball alley and watch the lift to see if he goes by.  ;-)



And glorious light shall shine down from Heaven as angels sing Hosannas on high.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 1, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm gonna be real curious to hear how Smuggs is doing with the passes I'm holding. I assume pretty darn good. Too bad about your GF, I bet she was gonna love sitting in MRG base lodge watching you lap single chair all day



Not the smuggs thread, but to answer your question - it was great! Very happy with my decision today. nice chalky snow, great coverage in the woods, some untracked lines taboot


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## pinnoke (Feb 1, 2020)

Orca said:


> And glorious light shall shine down from Heaven as angels sing Hosannas on high.



Haha...perfect!


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I foresee Slidebrook riding his beloved lift back and forth  all day with a huge smile.



LOL. I was thinking this exact same thing!

Nice day out there today!


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## Orca (Feb 1, 2020)

Nice day out on the snow today. Mostly chalky. Low angle stuff really good, and some of the steeps too.


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2020)

It was nice. I have to say though, not a fan of the HG corral setup especially on busy days.


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## WinS (Feb 2, 2020)

tumbler said:


> It was nice. I have to say though, not a fan of the HG corral setup especially on busy days.



We have been experimenting with different corral designs to try to keep line from blocking Downspout.  Tried a different one today.


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## medfordmike (Feb 2, 2020)

I went to Lincoln and Ellen Saturday.  Visibility wasn't good at Lincoln but the snow conditions were great.  I have not been to Sugarbush in years for no other reason  than distance and it has not been on any pass I had and I am cheap.  Really enjoyed it.  Lines were busy but as a single I flew through on the quads.  Ellen was never an issue.  BTW i recommend the pretzel and sausage combo for lunch at Ellen with a Citizen.  Just saying. Anyone regular there on Saturday who can give me a sense of how the lines compare to other Saturdays this season would be appreciated.


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## smac75 (Feb 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> We have been experimenting with different corral designs to try to keep line from blocking Downspout.  Tried a different one today.



I like the concept. It’s always been a challenge on a board to get all the way over to the end of the singles line on long line days. But having the singles line over on the ripcord side was causing confusion -  couldn’t tell if it wrapped or went down the hill.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2020)

medfordmike said:


> Just saying. Anyone regular there on Saturday who can give me a sense of how the lines compare to other Saturdays this season would be appreciated.



Less crowded than the last 2 weekends (but those had some pent up demand and/or holiday and/or fresh snow...so hard to judge what is typical so far this year), although about what I would consider fairly normal from prior season experience.


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## shadyjay (Feb 2, 2020)

Over the years I tried a few different configurations at the HG corral.  Its a tough spot, with Downspout seeing as much traffic as it does, and on the busiest days, the line almost stretches over to the booster pump house.  There never appears to be a big enough flat area there to do the corral before it drops off, and its going to spill into Downspout.  

One solution possibly is to close off access from Lower Ripcord to the lift and utilize more space to the west.  Anyone coming down Ripcord would have to use the cutoff to Downspout (Bailout extension) up by Tower 4 if they want to get to Heaven's Gate, and keep everything below that access to the base only, utilizing Lower Lower Ripcord.  Perhaps put up some big orange fencing to close it off on the busy periods, and reopen it for midweek.  Or maybe just make the flat area larger by filling in more further down Lower Downspout.


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## MorningWoods (Feb 2, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> Over the years I tried a few different configurations at the HG corral.  Its a tough spot, with Downspout seeing as much traffic as it does, and on the busiest days, the line almost stretches over to the booster pump house.  There never appears to be a big enough flat area there to do the corral before it drops off, and its going to spill into Downspout.
> 
> One solution possibly is to close off access from Lower Ripcord to the lift and utilize more space to the west.  Anyone coming down Ripcord would have to use the cutoff to Downspout (Bailout extension) up by Tower 4 if they want to get to Heaven's Gate, and keep everything below that access to the base only, utilizing Lower Lower Ripcord.  Perhaps put up some big orange fencing to close it off on the busy periods, and reopen it for midweek.  Or maybe just make the flat area larger by filling in more further down Lower Downspout.



Good ideas. But, Please god no more traffic on deathspout . I like the regrading idea so it can extend straight back. 

PS. The Grift was awesome last night.  That guy on the keyboard was going crazy. [emoji1787]


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2020)

got to lincoln peak today for the first time this season. was gonna go to mad river but decided id rather start earlier at 8 and save mrg for a day without a sunday rush to get home. i really liked what i found at sugarbush today! started off on heavens gate, skiing the unmarked woods off of jester/spillsville and paradise. jester woods were too untracked and tight to be very fun today, as the snow had consolidated a bit and hadn't yet been skier packed. but paradise skied great - can confirm that the woods at sugarbush are skiable and will not kill you. moved on to castlerock and got 2 runs in right after they opened the chair and before there was any line. skied rumble and liftline. rumble is such a classic. i can't imagine what it would be like with lots of fresh snow on it. or the first time its opened before the bumps form. moved over to super bravo/valley house and skied steins, eden, twist, race course woods, grotto, sap line woods, spring fling. great fun riding the wales on steins. looks like that snow will be there for a while. impressive. also big wales on snowball.  back to heavens gate via murphys>traverse and finished hte day with 2 final heavens gate rides, a second lap through paradise, and then organgrinder. i wish you could really ski organgrinder t2b. its such an attractive 2000 foot straight line, but that uphill after the upper portion is a bitch and i skied around it. 

at 12:30 i had skied 20k and decided it would be nice to drive in the daylight. home in brooklyn at 6:30. 

great day.


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## smac75 (Feb 2, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Good ideas. But, Please god no more traffic on deathspout . I like the regrading idea so it can extend straight back.
> 
> PS. The Grift was awesome last night.  That guy on the keyboard was going crazy. [emoji1787]
> 
> ...



Been avoiding downspout the past couple weeks by doing domino then doing that little woods cut thru (wood lot?) off domino down to bottom of downspout to get to HG lift. So much more civilized than downspout!


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## WinS (Feb 3, 2020)

smac75 said:


> Been avoiding downspout the past couple weeks by doing domino then doing that little woods cut thru (wood lot?) off domino down to bottom of downspout to get to HG lift. So much more civilized than downspout!



That is Heaven’s Gate Traverse and a great way to get to HG. Get there by either Organgrinder or Domino. You can also get there from Reverse Traverse from Valley House lift.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 3, 2020)

Haha nope. I skied at Lincoln until about 9:50 on Saturday morning, caught first chair to Ellen, got on North Ridge and stopped by Walt’s to grab a bite to eat before it got crowded. I skied at Ellen until about 2:15 and then headed back over to Lincoln and skied there for the rest of the day. Tumbler and Hammerhead had very thin cover, but they’re cool trails. Lower FIS had great snow. Probably my favorite run of the day. Attached is a picture of my ski tracks. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 3, 2020)

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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Technically it is not wrong, however that also is not the current GMX. The 1990 GMX was moved to North Ridge in 1995. The current GMX was installed in 2002. From 1995 to 2001 you had the slow fixed grip Green Mountain quad.



The idea behind this was to make North Ridge the main lift that people would lap. Skiers would only ride the GMQ to get out of the base area and nothing else. It essentially created a second base area with skiers coming in on Slide Brook, people coming up from the base area, and skiers going up on North Ridge to ski the mountain’s terrain. It was an interesting system that had its advantages and disadvantages. If a large mid-mountain lodge had been built at the top of the GMQ, the system would’ve made more sense. As North Ridge ages, the chain driven contours are known to be a problem. North Ridge is one of only 3 lifts in the US to use this terminal style, the others being at Squaw Valley and Copper (now removed). Most other resorts have replaced the chain driven contours with tire driven ones. Each year work has been done to keep North Ridge going so I wouldn’t be surprised to see this change occur. North Ridge ran a tad faster in previous years, but the current speed seems to be sufficient. It’s about  4.6 m/s or 900 ft/min. 


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> It was nice. I have to say though, not a fan of the HG corral setup especially on busy days.



That is funny you should say that.  We all thought is was great.  All the newbies were lining up and going up the hill on the downspout side.  We skied down the Ripchord side and got right into line on the right side.  No one knew to just go and fill all he lines in the corral.  Perfect for us regulars.  Even when the corral filled up we got into the singles line.  I never waited for more than 5 minutes all day both days.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2020)

I also enjoyed the Grift on Saturday night.  It was interesting to see the different crowd with not that many locals and regulars.  I talked to a few people who have never seen them before.   They were blown away by the song selection.


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## MorningWoods (Feb 3, 2020)

Hawk said:


> That is funny you should say that.  We all thought is was great.  All the newbies were lining up and going up the hill on the downspout side.  We skied down the Ripchord side and got right into line on the right side.  No one knew to just go and fill all he lines in the corral.  Perfect for us regulars.  Even when the corral filled up we got into the singles line.  I never waited for more than 5 minutes all day both days.



Yeah. I did the exact same thing. On second thought, that set up is perfect, leave it just like it is. [emoji1787]


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 3, 2020)

I also noticed the setup on Saturday and was impressed. Much better than before. Won’t result in overflow like last weekend. 


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## flakeydog (Feb 3, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The idea behind this was to make North Ridge the main lift that people would lap. Skiers would only ride the GMQ to get out of the base area and nothing else. It essentially created a second base area with skiers coming in on Slide Brook, people coming up from the base area, and skiers going up on North Ridge to ski the mountain’s terrain. It was an interesting system that had its advantages and disadvantages. If a large mid-mountain lodge had been built at the top of the GMQ, the system would’ve made more sense.



I think at the time it was seen by the locals as ASC taking North to just use the parking lot.  All of the real activity was shuffled all to South at that point and they figured people would just park and ride straight over to Lincoln Peak.  Nothing to see at Ellen...  Yes, a pessimistic view but fit in with the "slash and burn" attitude ASC approached ski area management at the time.


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## mikec142 (Feb 3, 2020)

Super bummed out. I've been in a great place with working out and my Peloton. Took a spill while skiing yesterday. Went to the ortho today and found out I tore the big muscle in my left calf. Crutches for 7-10 days and no skiing or riding for a while. I'll find out more next week at the follow up.  Was so looking forward to the next two weekends at SB. &#55357;&#56873;


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## baseconsolidation (Feb 4, 2020)

Did the same thing last year in egans woods last March. Got turned around and leaned forward as backs of skis got stuck in the snow. Was really bad for a few weeks but with pt i was back on skis    in a few weeks. I think skiing was better than walking, definitely better than stairs. How bad is the tear?

Good luck and let me know if I can help. 


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## Scruffy (Feb 4, 2020)

Tore my calf badly during a GS race a number of years ago. It had snowed heavily the night before and it was warm so it was manky snow. I got ejected from the course and into a big wet pile of snow--skis stopped abruptly while body was flying. Bindings did not release. Anyway, I'm sure you'll learn all this during PT, but you want to get as much blood flow into the injury as possible to facilitate healing. Ice 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off--this causes a blood flow rush into area during the off cycle. Go see a sports rehabilitation massage therapist a.k.a clinical massage therapist, as well as any P.T.  I was skiing again in 5 weeks, YMMV, every injury is different. Heal quickly.


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## pinnoke (Feb 4, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Super bummed out. I've been in a great place with working out and my Peloton. Took a spill while skiing yesterday. Went to the ortho today and found out I tore the big muscle in my left calf. Crutches for 7-10 days and no skiing or riding for a while. I'll find out more next week at the follow up.  Was so looking forward to the next two weekends at SB. ��



Good luck with your recovery and temporary absence from the slopes. Groundhog Day was the ninth anniversary of my surgical reconstruction of the knee 'cords' I 'ripped' on Ripcord. Injuries can occur anywhere...woods; groomers; bunny slopes; slips/falls. You'll come back strong and will do all you can to avoid any repeats! Sorry to hear. But, know that you've got plenty of support to get you back on boards when you're able (don't rush it). I think the groundhog has predicted an awesome 20-21 season!


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## urungus (Feb 4, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Super bummed out. I've been in a great place with working out and my Peloton. Took a spill while skiing yesterday. Went to the ortho today and found out I tore the big muscle in my left calf. Crutches for 7-10 days and no skiing or riding for a while. I'll find out more next week at the follow up.  Was so looking forward to the next two weekends at SB. ��



That sucks.  Hang in there, do your PT and you will be back out there before long.  I’m still recovering from broken arm so I know what you’re going through.  Hopefully season lasts until May and we will be back out there


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## mikec142 (Feb 4, 2020)

Thanks guys!  I know it's a temporary setback.  But it stings a bit as the season feels like it's picking up and we were about to book a trip out west.  Now I'm gonna hold off on out west and wait to hear what the doctor says next week.  I was looking forward to breaking the 20 day mark for the first time in years...I've been around 15-18 days for a while now.  I think we are going to head up to VT over President's Day anyway.  We were planning to go with another family and ski SB and MRG.  My kids can still ski with their friends and I can nurse a beer or two anywhere.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2020)

Being hurt sucks.  I know this first hand.  But you just have to put your head down and push through it.  Stay positive, stay committed to the PT process and we will see you on the slopes soon dude.  Good luck.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 4, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Thanks guys!  I know it's a temporary setback.  But it stings a bit as the season feels like it's picking up and we were about to book a trip out west.  Now I'm gonna hold off on out west and wait to hear what the doctor says next week.  I was looking forward to breaking the 20 day mark for the first time in years...I've been around 15-18 days for a while now.  I think we are going to head up to VT over President's Day anyway.  We were planning to go with another family and ski SB and MRG.  My kids can still ski with their friends and I can nurse a beer or two anywhere.



Sorry to hear but you'll heal up sooner than you think.  Friend tore his calf a few years ago at Jay and he was back in no time. In the future, you want to time your injuries a little better.  Like mid to late march.


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## skiur (Feb 5, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Sorry to hear but you'll heal up sooner than you think.  Friend tore his calf a few years ago at Jay and he was back in no time. In the future, you want to time your injuries a little better.  Like mid to late march.



Why would you want to get injured in mid to late March?  Thats when things start to really get good!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Why would you want to get injured in mid to late March?  Thats when things start to really get good!


On the balance, there's greater potential for good days 2/1-3/15 than 3/15-5/1.  I say that as someone who loves the corn season as much as the next guy, but for every great, sunny, corn day in April, there's either a cold coral reef surface day or rain. 

Also, if the OP has kids, April starts to tighten up on free time with spring sports season. 

I've suffered injuries that required a month rehab at both times of a ski season. Early Feb and late March.  The early Feb injury had a much greater impact on the number of quality days I had that season. 

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## skiur (Feb 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> On the balance, there's greater potential for good days 2/1-3/15 than 3/15-5/1.  I say that as someone who loves the corn season as much as the next guy, but for every great, sunny, corn day in April, there's either a cold coral reef surface day or rain.
> 
> Also, if the OP has kids, April starts to tighten up on free time with spring sports season.
> 
> ...



Good point about the kids, luckily I dont have any of those, but late March is when the tailgating season starts, and I would say there are more good days between 3/15-6/1 as all you need for a good day is warm weather, a bbq and some beer.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2020)

Peak base depths in the east are generally mid to late'ish March.  Most people are surprised by this, but it's true.


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## ducky (Feb 6, 2020)

Nice 4"++ covering overnight but the freezing rain made it almost impossible. Got some good (woods) runs in but had to quit at lunchtime, like many others, as you could not see anything through iced goggles and somehow the goretex was frozen yet soaking wet. When we left it was 37˚ at the base and 22˚ on Rte 100 just as forecast. Roads pretty bad too even with studs. Hoping tomorrow brings the goods.


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## slatham (Feb 6, 2020)

ducky said:


> Nice 4"++ covering overnight but the freezing rain made it almost impossible. Got some good (woods) runs in but had to quit at lunchtime, like many others, as you could not see anything through iced goggles and somehow the goretex was frozen yet soaking wet. When we left it was 37˚ at the base and 22˚ on Rte 100 just as forecast. Roads pretty bad too even with studs. Hoping tomorrow brings the goods.



37 at base? Web site says 27 as do other weather stations. You have to go all the way to Rutland before the temp is above 30......


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## rocks860 (Feb 6, 2020)

I’m heading up on Saturday for the week, hopefully the roads will be ok by then


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## ducky (Feb 6, 2020)

slatham said:


> 37 at base? Web site says 27 as do other weather stations. You have to go all the way to Rutland before the temp is above 30......



Not to argue the point but that was in my truck actually here in the base parking lot rather than reading from a website. The engine had been off for 3-1/2 hours so not reading adjacent engine temps, I assume. We were soaked. It didn't drop below freezing until below Alpine Options. Josh Fox called it correctly with an inversion from 3,000'-5,000'. And it was windy on top coming right up Castlerock, which is unusual.

Considering it was a school snow day with 4" fresh snow, the main lot was not full. Maybe they were all at Mt Ellen.

Looking like the freezing rain won't be gone until roughly tomorrow after 1:00, then heavy snow. Sat might be the day if you can get here safely.


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## slatham (Feb 6, 2020)

First of all, jealous I'm not there to ski and argue car temps vs web sites with you!

I find car temp gauges to be way less accurate, especially when the car is stationary, than the weather stations I have access too. I have also found the Sugarbush web site temps to be very accurate, as they too are taking a direct feed from a high end weather station that they own and have placed around the mountain (same one's they rely on to make snow).

I think the issue is that, even with cloud cover, solar radiation will impact the cars external temp reading. It would be interesting to see how residual heat from the engine block effects it too. 

Now, if you had a legit thermometer I would stand down...

Josh is obviously right that there's an inversion and a warm layer causing non-snow. But the warm layer is much higher than 1,800' base elevation, and right now, even above summit elevation.


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## smac75 (Feb 6, 2020)

If anyone has 89N from NH road reports tonight would love to hear.  Getting on the road from Boston area around 8pm.


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## ducky (Feb 6, 2020)

smac75 said:


> If anyone has 89N from NH road reports tonight would love to hear.  Getting on the road from Boston area around 8pm.



Was just nearby on Rte 100 in Moretown and it is icy, though the roads are clear and sanded and I was doing 50 - full-size truck, sand bags, new studded snows. Problem is the windscreen is icing over every 30 seconds and only blasting with lots of screenwash will clear it. ...Probably someone else here with access to very accurate online weather stations can tell it to you better though.

Seriously though, if you can get some deicing orange screenwash and fill your reservoir before you go, should be ok. Hope you have a safe drive up and some good snow tomorrow.


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## smac75 (Feb 6, 2020)

ducky said:


> Was just nearby on Rte 100 in Moretown and it is icy, though the roads are clear and sanded and I was doing 50 - full-size truck, sand bags, new studded snows. Problem is the windscreen is icing over every 30 seconds and only blasting with lots of screenwash will clear it. ...Probably someone else here with access to very accurate online weather stations can tell it to you better though.
> 
> Seriously though, if you can get some deicing orange screenwash and fill your reservoir before you go, should be ok. Hope you have a safe drive up and some good snow tomorrow.



Thank you!!


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## ScottySkis (Feb 6, 2020)

slatham said:


> First of all, jealous I'm not there to ski and argue car temps vs web sites with you!
> 
> I find car temp gauges to be way less accurate, especially when the car is stationary, than the weather stations I have access too. I have also found the Sugarbush web site temps to be very accurate, as they too are taking a direct feed from a high end weather station that they own and have placed around the mountain (same one's they rely on to make snow).
> 
> ...



I know someone on this fourm who car says it 10 degrees all time
Summer or winter

Sugars b is awesome ski snowboard experience
I need to get soon 
With the Warren Miller voucher hopefully


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 6, 2020)

7pm, Fayston at 1600 ft. 26 degrees, freezing rain and some sleet. Maybe 6 inches of snow today. Was on 89 near Stowe at 6, road was treated and reasonably clear. The road is OK, the bozos driving on it not so much.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2020)

Around 30 on the valley floor at flatbread at the moment. Was a mix of everything from Rutland north on 100 but seems to have mostly stopped for now.  Roads weren’t too bad. Decided to eat before going up the mountain to my condo though.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2020)

Interesting...currently snowing from the valley floor all the way up to my condo a bit above the base elevation.


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## Julius (Feb 7, 2020)

Was out of town last couple days and just drove back up 89 from below ski country (Thr nite). Road conditions NH/VT were icy slow to say the least- an 18 wheeler turned over in the median near Royalton and a one lane crane crew attending to it.. couple other cars snow biffed.  As of 1am, there's a light crust coat atop the latest snowfall at the mtn base. 

Friday looks to be skiventful. 

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## smac75 (Feb 7, 2020)

Julius said:


> Was out of town last couple days and just drove back up 89 from below ski country (Thr nite). Road conditions NH/VT were icy slow to say the least- an 18 wheeler turned over in the median near Royalton and a one lane crane crew attending to it.. couple other cars snow biffed.  As of 1am, there's a light crust coat atop the latest snowfall at the mtn base.
> 
> Friday looks to be skiventful.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk



You must have been one of the very few cars we saw on the road last night! Saw that rolled over semi - I think it happened much earlier in the day. Super quiet and better than I expected visibility-wise for sure.  Saw some cars off the road but we didn’t feel the car slip once.  I think we made the right choice driving last night instead of later today.  Now let’s get on with the 3”/hr snow!


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## WinS (Feb 7, 2020)

slatham said:


> First of all, jealous I'm not there to ski and argue car temps vs web sites with you!
> 
> I find car temp gauges to be way less accurate, especially when the car is stationary, than the weather stations I have access too. I have also found the Sugarbush web site temps to be very accurate, as they too are taking a direct feed from a high end weather station that they own and have placed around the mountain (same one's they rely on to make snow).
> 
> ...




The accurate reading was 27 degrees. The Inversion was up around 9,000 feet yesterday.


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## WinS (Feb 7, 2020)

The early bird doesn't get the worm today. Things should start getting good around 10am. That's when I plan to suit up today.   Not as much freezing rain as feared to the GMX was only slightly delayed and the LP lifts should be close to scheduled opening this morning although we do have some initial delays on Bravo, NR, Summit and Castlerock.   It will get better and better as day goes on and tomorrow even though cold should see some great skiing.


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## Greg (Feb 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> The early bird doesn't get the worm today. Things should start getting good around 10am. That's when I plan to suit up today.   Not as much freezing rain as feared to the GMX was only slightly delayed and the LP lifts should be close to scheduled opening this morning although we do have some initial delays on Bravo, NR, Summit and Castlerock.   It will get better and better as day goes on and tomorrow even though cold should see some great skiing.



Nice! Looking like a solid weekend. We'll be up this evening. SB tomorrow, MRG Sunday. Can't wait!


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 7, 2020)

Right on cue, it's turned to snow in Fayston. 27 degrees.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 7, 2020)

Looks like North Ridge has some icing issues. Slide Brook is closed but no reason is given. Any idea what’s going on here? 


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 7, 2020)

^If you reverse the order of your sentences, you have your answer.


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## TSQURD (Feb 7, 2020)

Or read the snow report - First line:

*North Ridge is delayed due to icing. Slide Brook Express is closed for the day due to icing*

32* @~ 1700' - Its coming down heavy now!


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 7, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Or read the snow report - First line:
> 
> *North Ridge is delayed due to icing. Slide Brook Express is closed for the day due to icing*
> 
> 32* @~ 1700' - Its coming down heavy now!



Checked it about 45 minutes ago when that wasn’t there. Thanks. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 7, 2020)

Hmmmm... Still not showing up. 


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## TSQURD (Feb 7, 2020)

Maybe someone is screwing with you


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## WinS (Feb 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Looks like North Ridge has some icing issues. Slide Brook is closed but no reason is given. Any idea what’s going on here?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



NR is open now and SB is closed due to icing.  Working on it now, but it will take all day most likely.


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2020)

Switched over to snow at the base just before 10am this morning. Coming down at a good rate now. Little mixing at the base once in a while, but things are filling in nicely and the crust is getting broken up with some human grooming.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 7, 2020)

A good 6 - 7" in Fayston since 10am. Still snowing hard. Wind blowing with some urgency. Temps dropping. Light, fluffy consistency.
Not sure I would want to be coming up 89 in this.


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## smac75 (Feb 7, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> A good 6 - 7" in Fayston since 10am. Still snowing hard. Wind blowing with some urgency. Temps dropping. Light, fluffy consistency.
> Not sure I would want to be coming up 89 in this.



That wind kicked up out of now where! One very pleasant lift ride and run down CR then very next ride up was insane! Was sure they were going to close the lift. Huge gusts kicked up while on the lift and it stopped the lift a few times then moved along very slowly. One of the more white-knuckle lift rides I i've been on. And the temps plummeted! Strange (but fun) day. Tomorrow will be a mob scene i'm sure.


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2020)

smac75 said:


> That wind kicked up out of now where! One very pleasant lift ride and run down CR then very next ride up was insane! Was sure they were going to close the lift. Huge gusts kicked up while on the lift and it stopped the lift a few times then moved along very slowly. One of the more white-knuckle lift rides I i've been on. And the temps plummeted! Strange (but fun) day. Tomorrow will be a mob scene i'm sure.



Was in the CR lift at the same time as you it sounds like. That wind kicked up crazy about a minute after I got on it. My clothes were frozen solid when I got off the lift!

Runs just got better and better all day today.





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## TSQURD (Feb 7, 2020)

smac75 said:


> Tomorrow will be a mob scene i'm sure.



The -30 windchill may help with that.


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## Skrn (Feb 7, 2020)

Tomorrow has pretty strong wind from the west. Which lift are less likely to be affected from west wind in your opinion? Trying to decide whether we should go to my Ellen or Lincoln peak? Thanks


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## snow.bunny (Feb 7, 2020)

Skrn said:


> Tomorrow has pretty strong wind from the west. Which lift are less likely to be affected from west wind in your opinion? Trying to decide whether we should go to my Ellen or Lincoln peak? Thanks
> 
> I would ski both if I were you. No point in being locked to only one. Slide Brook may go on wind hold, but if not, and lifts at either Lincoln or Ellen go on hold, you can just head over to the other side. Winds can be very unpredictable so take it as the day goes. By the way, I’m new around here. Anything I should know?
> 
> ...


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## WinS (Feb 8, 2020)

snow.bunny said:


> Skrn said:
> 
> 
> > Tomorrow has pretty strong wind from the west. Which lift are less likely to be affected from west wind in your opinion? Trying to decide whether we should go to my Ellen or Lincoln peak? Thanks
> ...


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## pinnoke (Feb 9, 2020)

How/why do you think yesterday's reporting of 7"-9" of new snow (up to 12" 3-day storm total) has now been revised to 12"-17" (14"-19" past 3-day total)? It was weird to see such a low amount reported while so many of us were comparing stories of how much snow we needed to clear from our nearby driveways! Having been away during the storm and looking at webcams, it did seem like there wasn't as much accumulation on the mid and summit snow stakes, perhaps due to wind? Was the low number a 'video' or human observation?


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## jpf72 (Feb 9, 2020)

Excellent conditions this weekend


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## WinS (Feb 9, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> How/why do you think yesterday's reporting of 7"-9" of new snow (up to 12" 3-day storm total) has now been revised to 12"-17" (14"-19" past 3-day total)? It was weird to see such a low amount reported while so many of us were comparing stories of how much snow we needed to clear from our nearby driveways! Having been away during the storm and looking at webcams, it did seem like there wasn't as much accumulation on the mid and summit snow stakes, perhaps due to wind? Was the low number a 'video' or human observation?



The wind overnight really kicked in and swept both of the snow shakes which the Snowreporter used to estimate the total at 6:30am. When we all got out on the mountain it was obvious that we had a lot more. The time lapse didn’t really help since it was blowing steadily, so we used the old fashioned human measurement. Having skied around myself first thing I am very comfortable with the revision which is just about what neighbor MRG reported.


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## WinS (Feb 9, 2020)

snow.bunny said:


> Skrn said:
> 
> 
> > Tomorrow has pretty strong wind from the west. Which lift are less likely to be affected from west wind in your opinion? Trying to decide whether we should go to my Ellen or Lincoln peak? Thanks
> ...


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## Greg (Feb 10, 2020)

WinS said:


> The wind overnight really kicked in and swept both of the snow shakes which the Snowreporter used to estimate the total at 6:30am. When we all got out on the mountain it was obvious that we had a lot more. The time lapse didn’t really help since it was blowing steadily, so we used the old fashioned human measurement. Having skied around myself first thing I am very comfortable with the revision which is just about what neighbor MRG reported.



We were probably among the first dozen or so tracks down Castlerock Run Saturday morning and probably close to a foot of fresh overnight was what we experienced. Conditions held up nicely for yesterday at MRG. I think it was the first bluebird morning I've had there and with the fresh snow it was something special. Great weekend!


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## WinS (Feb 10, 2020)

Greg said:


> We were probably among the first dozen or so tracks down Castlerock Run Saturday morning and probably close to a foot of fresh overnight was what we experienced. Conditions held up nicely for yesterday at MRG. I think it was the first bluebird morning I've had there and with the fresh snow it was something special. Great weekend!



The head of patrol and I were the first &#55357;&#56832; and that is where we took a measurement. It was a good foot! Glad you got out this weekend.


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## SkierDude (Feb 10, 2020)

I think I found Slidebrook! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=283G2x8_T-M
Does anyone else find it ridiculous how he bashes Win for no reason? It is totally disrespectful. If he is going to do it, atleast say it to his face and not make rude comments behind his back. He literally attacks Win so often... Now I do not know if this is him, but considering all the sugarbush lift videos, many of which criticizing Win, I am going to assume it is. Win is a highly intelligent, qualified resort president, and this person needs to stop. If you want to talk lousy management, look at Vail at many of their recently purchased resorts. Constant mechanical issues, deceptive marketing, etc.

Look at the video description for this and many other vides of his...


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 10, 2020)

.    Sweet day 


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## rocks860 (Feb 10, 2020)

Skied at mount Ellen today. Snow was great but visibility basically at the top of Inverness was rather challenging. Exterminator and semi tough woods were great


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## slatham (Feb 10, 2020)

Win, heard last Saturday could have been a record? Hope all went well. Looks like it might be set up to be a great Presidents weekend.


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## WinS (Feb 10, 2020)

SkierDude said:


> I think I found Slidebrook! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=283G2x8_T-M
> Does anyone else find it ridiculous how he bashes Win for no reason? It is totally disrespectful. If he is going to do it, atleast say it to his face and not make rude comments behind his back. He literally attacks Win so often... Now I do not know if this is him, but considering all the sugarbush lift videos, many of which criticizing Win, I am going to assume it is. Win is a highly intelligent, qualified resort president, and this person needs to stop. If you want to talk lousy management, look at Vail at many of their recently purchased resorts. Constant mechanical issues, deceptive marketing, etc.
> 
> Look at the video description for this and many other vides of his...



He is actually a very nice young man who is passionate about lifts. He does a lot of research and knows a great deal. He means very well and enjoys Sugarbush a lot. We were all young once and learn along the way. I am not at all offended. I admire his passion


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## WinS (Feb 10, 2020)

slatham said:


> Win, heard last Saturday could have been a record? Hope all went well. Looks like it might be set up to be a great Presidents weekend.



Nope, but a very busy day. Powder days brings ‘em out and we missed the icings others had south of us. Having SB and CR spinning now and the woods skiing well really helps on a busy day. I am sure Saturday  and Sunday will be very busy. Early turns are what to do.


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## rocks860 (Feb 10, 2020)

Also took my yearly trek down lower fis, snow was ok but run out was rough as usual


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 10, 2020)

Yes that was my video. I was not trying to bash Win in any way, but I was talking about how Slide Brook has changed since the 90s. Win and I get along well and I hope to continue that.  Much of this is just stating ideas that I hope can happen in the future of Sugarbush and problems as a skier that I have noticed. I’ll be skiing with some friends this weekend so it will be nice to have the crowds spread out a bit with Slide Brook running. More people are riding it this season than I have ever seen before. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 10, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> Also took my yearly trek down lower fis, snow was ok but run out was rough as usual
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Last time I skied it the conditions were amazing. I can't decide what's my favorite run at Sugarbush, but Lower FIS is in the top 5 for sure. Recently I found the history of why that runout is there. Pretty interesting to think that it used to be a regulation length race course back in the Glen Ellen days. Surprised the rest wasn't cut some time in the 80s or 90s.


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## djd66 (Feb 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes that was my video. I was not trying to bash Win in any way, but I was talking about how Slide Brook has changed since the 90s. Win and I get along well and I hope to continue that.  Much of this is just stating ideas that I hope can happen in the future of Sugarbush and problems as a skier that I have noticed. I’ll be skiing with some friends this weekend so it will be nice to have the crowds spread out a bit with Slide Brook running. More people are riding it this season than I have ever seen before.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



SB87 - I know people on this board have given you a lot of shit,... you actually seem to be very passionate and knowledgeable about ski lifts.  What is your background?  How do you know all this stuff about all these lifts?


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 10, 2020)

djd66 said:


> SB87 - I know people on this board have given you a lot of shit,... you actually seem to be very passionate and knowledgeable about ski lifts.  What is your background?  How do you know all this stuff about all these lifts?



I’ve never really introduced myself on this forum so I might as well do it now. My name’s Teddy and I’ll be turning 14 in 2 weeks. I started skiing at the age of 5, and skied about 5-10 days per year until the 2017/18 season. I started skiing a lot more than I used to at that time and made my first trip to Sugarbush for my birthday. It had always been on my bucket list and the sheer size and varied terrain is what originally drew me to it. Now I ski there quite a bit and have a condo. On the topic of lifts, after a trip to Stratton in 2015, I was amazed at how all the technology worked. I went home and discovered chairlift.org and similar websites. Ever since then I’ve been very into ski lifts and mountain operations. I got to go into the motor room of Super Bravo last spring and on my trip to Big Sky I got the chance to go inside Ramcharger 8’s and Swift Current’s motor rooms. Both are pretty impressive lifts. It’s truly one of the most difficult businesses and it’s quite interesting to see how each mountain has gone about combatting the challenges that come along with it. 


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## Cornhead (Feb 11, 2020)

Gladerunner at Sugarbush yesterday. 

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## ScottySkis (Feb 11, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Gladerunner at Sugarbush yesterday. View attachment 26250
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Wonder if he ran into sir Ban a lot that guy said he was going to sugarbush yesterday also


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## rocks860 (Feb 11, 2020)

Skied Lincoln peak today. Snow was great but the visibility not so much, also ended up soaked after a few runs. Ripcord was excellent, rarely have I seen the snow so good on there and it wasn’t groomed at all


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## shadyjay (Feb 11, 2020)

Damn... all these reports make me really want to get up there.  Got a few days planned vaca from work in mid March.  Hoping for several good dumps between now and then.  

There's been zero snow all winter here in southern CT and my longing to ride is suppressed for now.  But still can't wait to get up there and ride!!!


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 11, 2020)

I can’t wait for this weekend. Unfortunately I missed last weekend as I wasn’t feeling great, but looks like there should still be a good amount of fresh snow for this weekend. What trails have been skiing best recently? 


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2020)

A few pics from the weekend...





I tried to upload a couple others too, but for some reason a few photos just won't attach. I also didn't take too many on Friday and Saturday as the snow was just too much fun.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I can’t wait for this weekend. Unfortunately I missed last weekend as I wasn’t feeling great, but looks like there should still be a good amount of fresh snow for this weekend. What trails have been skiing best recently?



Really hard for me to pick a favorite. Everything was skiing well last weekend.

President's weekend coming up so I won't be up there this weekend as my cousin and his family are using my condo for their annual family trip. But he has a track record of bringing powder with him whenever he comes up (he was up this past weekend with a bunch of buddies on a trip he planned months ago!), so it should be good again!


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> A few pics from the weekend...
> 
> View attachment 26252
> View attachment 26253
> ...



Ripcord looks great though I imagine they’ve groomed it out by now. I think Friday’s cold temps might drive some people away. Could be a great day on the mountain. 


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ripcord looks great though I imagine they’ve groomed it out by now. I think Friday’s cold temps might drive some people away. Could be a great day on the mountain.



Per the snow report, it is on tonight's grooming schedule. This will be the first time for upper Ripcord since prior to the storm. Lower Ripcord was groomed Saturday night though.


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## rocks860 (Feb 12, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Per the snow report, it is on tonight's grooming schedule. This will be the first time for upper Ripcord since prior to the storm. Lower Ripcord was groomed Saturday night though.



When I skied it yesterday it didn’t seem like it had been groomed at all


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## rocks860 (Feb 12, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> Damn... all these reports make me really want to get up there.  Got a few days planned vaca from work in mid March.  Hoping for several good dumps between now and then.
> 
> There's been zero snow all winter here in southern CT and my longing to ride is suppressed for now.  But still can't wait to get up there and ride!!!



Jay where are you in southern CT? I moved down to my girlfriends place in new haven a few months ago


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## shadyjay (Feb 12, 2020)

I'm in Ivoryton/Essex, about 1/2 hour east of New Haven off I-95.  We've gotten almost no snow and every day since New Years has been 40 degrees or higher.  Doesn't even feel like winter... more like sprinter (spring weather in winter vs winter in spring), or an endless stick season/mud season.


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## rocks860 (Feb 12, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> I'm in Ivoryton/Essex, about 1/2 hour east of New Haven off I-95.  We've gotten almost no snow and every day since New Years has been 40 degrees or higher.  Doesn't even feel like winter... more like sprinter (spring weather in winter vs winter in spring), or an endless stick season/mud season.



Yeah I definitely know Essex. You’re right it hasn’t felt like winter at all down there, my girlfriend said the same exact thing yesterday when we were up in Burlington. I plan on skiing tomorrow but not sure about Friday, looks like it’s going to be frigid


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## shadyjay (Feb 12, 2020)

Yeah I had my share of frigid days (and nights) up there making snow and on the lifts.  Enjoy it up there, man!


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## jaybird (Feb 13, 2020)

Best day we've had all season was Weds.
Sigi's groom was a beauty.
Castlerock is filled in nicely.
Seems all the wooded debris is now smothered.

Alterra influence now in effect ..
.. charging 25 cents for a paper cup.
Yikes.


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## machski (Feb 13, 2020)

jaybird said:


> Best day we've had all season was Weds.
> Sigi's groom was a beauty.
> Castlerock is filled in nicely.
> Seems all the wooded debris is now smothered.
> ...


.25 for a paper cup is to convince folks to bring a reusable, collapsible beverage cup/container.  Doing it at Boyne resorts too (or jacking bottled 20oz beverages to $5 which they have)

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## Plowboy (Feb 13, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last time I skied it the conditions were amazing. I can't decide what's my favorite run at Sugarbush, but Lower FIS is in the top 5 for sure. Recently I found the history of why that runout is there. Pretty interesting to think that it used to be a regulation length race course back in the Glen Ellen days. Surprised the rest wasn't cut some time in the 80s or 90s.


The regulation length is past the run out. It's overgrown now, but the old timing shack is still there. It's down aways on the right.


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## tumbler (Feb 13, 2020)

machski said:


> .25 for a paper cup is to convince folks to bring a reusable, collapsible beverage cup/container.  Doing it at Boyne resorts too (or jacking bottled 20oz beverages to $5 which they have)
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Did they get rid of the plastic red cups at the bottle filler?


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## TSQURD (Feb 13, 2020)

Yes, switched to disposable cups at the beginning of the season, started charging this past weekend. 

Was hoping the gear shop would be selling some sort of reusable/collapsible cup (preferably including a size that would fit into a kids jacket pocket), but they didn't have any.


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## smac75 (Feb 13, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Yes, switched to disposable cups at the beginning of the season, started charging this past weekend.
> 
> Was hoping the gear shop would be selling some sort of reusable/collapsible cup (preferably including a size that would fit into a kids jacket pocket), but they didn't have any.



My kids were actually using the condiment cups to drink out of. They bring reusable bottles but they are kept up at valley house which isn’t always where they stop for quick breaks. They didn’t realize they could pay for a paper cup.


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## TSQURD (Feb 13, 2020)

There is a tall woman that works in the gear shop, that seems very knowledgeable and is super helpful. Had a brief conversation with her when I was in looking for cups. She seemed receptive to the idea of stocking collapsible cups.  We shall see.


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## Harvey (Feb 13, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> Wonder if he ran into sir Ban a lot that guy said he was going to sugarbush yesterday also



Doh!


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## WinS (Feb 13, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Yes, switched to disposable cups at the beginning of the season, started charging this past weekend.
> 
> Was hoping the gear shop would be selling some sort of reusable/collapsible cup (preferably including a size that would fit into a kids jacket pocket), but they didn't have any.



We found that the energy used to wash the cups was not very environmentally responsible, and also putting al out of extra work on the kitchen staff, we wanted to use compostable cups but Grow Compost who collect our compostable material does not yet accept them. Hopefully that will change. We have ordered some reusable water ouches that will be very affordable and available for sale soon in the cafeteria. In the meantime, if you have a bottle or ouch please bring it.  Thank you.


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## 1dog (Feb 13, 2020)

Bubblers - free - at least for now. . . . .


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 13, 2020)

I guess nobody can complain about it being too warm tomorrow... At least it’s sunny...


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## rocks860 (Feb 13, 2020)

Yeah I think I’m gonna be taking tomorrow off


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## jaybird (Feb 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Did they get rid of the plastic red cups at the bottle filler?



Tumbler .. in a water discussion ..
They really need a second hydration station.
One is .. well .. it's a bottleneck :lol:
Surface conditions are still 'Steak Sauce' .. 
.. as in A-1 .. ha !


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 13, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve never really introduced myself on this forum so I might as well do it now. My name’s* Teddy* and I’ll be turning 14 in 2 weeks. I started skiing at the age of 5, and skied about 5-10 days per year until the 2017/18 season. I started skiing a lot more than I used to at that time and made my first trip to Sugarbush for my birthday. It had always been on my bucket list and the sheer size and varied terrain is what originally drew me to it. *Now I ski there quite a bit and have a condo.* On the topic of lifts, after a trip to Stratton in 2015, I was amazed at how all the technology worked. I went home and discovered chairlift.org and similar websites. Ever since then I’ve been very into ski lifts and mountain operations. I got to go into the motor room of Super Bravo last spring and on my trip to Big Sky I got the chance to go inside Ramcharger 8’s and Swift Current’s motor rooms. Both are pretty impressive lifts. It’s truly one of the most difficult businesses and it’s quite interesting to see how each mountain has gone about combatting the challenges that come along with it.



Teddy, I have to ask. I did pretty well as a teenager, worked hard and bought myself quite a few toys and whatnot, but I'd like to know where I went wrong. Figured you could let us in on your secret, on how to purchase affordable vacation properties at such a young age?

:lol::lol::lol:


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## djd66 (Feb 13, 2020)

1dog said:


> Bubblers - free - at least for now. . . . .



Pro tip: free pitchers and clean glasses at Rumble’s Kitchen


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## WinS (Feb 13, 2020)

jaybird said:


> Tumbler .. in a water discussion ..
> They really need a second hydration station.
> One is .. well .. it's a bottleneck :lol:
> Surface conditions are still 'Steak Sauce' ..
> .. as in A-1 .. ha !



There is one downstairs two :-D


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## mikec142 (Feb 14, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Teddy, I have to ask. I did pretty well as a teenager, worked hard and bought myself quite a few toys and whatnot, but I'd like to know where I went wrong. Figured you could let us in on your secret, on how to purchase affordable vacation properties at such a young age?
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:



Had the same thought.  Well played sir!


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## kingslug (Feb 15, 2020)

A balmy 12 below here


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## rocks860 (Feb 15, 2020)

Yeah I barely went outside yesterday let alone skied, just walked to take some garbage out and my beard froze pretty much immediately


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## 1dog (Feb 15, 2020)

9:52 am and place is deserted -it’s like an alternate universe


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## kingslug (Feb 15, 2020)

Yup..where is everyone??


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## rocks860 (Feb 15, 2020)

Parking lot looked packed when I drove by Lincoln peak on my way out


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## WinS (Feb 15, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> Parking lot looked packed when I drove by Lincoln peak on my way out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It was a late starting day.  IT was -17 when I drove is  around 7am and is now 21 at 2:45. It was a busy non-holiday Saturday.  My guess is you will see a very different day tomorrow with the Temps a lot higher at the beginning on the day. Anyone who did come out found some great conditions.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Feb 15, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



1dog said:


> 9:52 am and place is deserted -it’s like an alternate universe


Maybe there's a Native American burial site somewhere with a portal to a counterpart world where people enjoy standing in hour long liftlines to ski ribbons of dirt in the rain.


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## josh59x (Feb 15, 2020)

This might have been covered before and I missed it, but what happened to Valley House’s carpet? It’s so slow. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 15, 2020)

josh59x said:


> This might have been covered before and I missed it, but what happened to Valley House’s carpet? It’s so slow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Noticed the exact same thing. So many slows and stops. Rode it once but just rode Bravo for the rest of the day. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 15, 2020)

Skied a lot today 


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## josh59x (Feb 15, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Noticed the exact same thing. So many slows and stops. Rode it once but just rode Bravo for the rest of the day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Lift attendant said the carpet froze and snapped yesterday, may be down for the rest of season. Sad — SB + traverse faster when lines are reasonable. 


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 15, 2020)

Slidebrook terrain was money today. So nice I had to do it twice. Also skied Castlerock 9-11 this morning and the cold kept lift lines there to as good as I've seen it on a Holiday Weekend in a long time.

I suspect tomorrow will be much busier on the hill with the warmer temps so we're headed to Mellen. Great conditions!!


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 15, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Skied a lot today
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do you have one of those massive battery packs on your phone? Various LG and Samsung phones we own barely survive the cold, let alone can be relied on to run GPS the whole day.


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## ducky (Feb 15, 2020)

Anyone know of an app that shows a winter satellite view (with snow)?


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## urungus (Feb 15, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Do you have one of those massive battery packs on your phone? Various LG and Samsung phones we own barely survive the cold, let alone can be relied on to run GPS the whole day.



I had problems with my iPhone shutting down in the cold and solved it by putting the phone in a mitten along with a hand warmer.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 15, 2020)

I just keep my phone (iPhone XS) in the pocket of my snow pants. About 60% by the end of the day. 


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## WWF-VT (Feb 15, 2020)

Great day on Mt Ellen today with the sunshine and empty slopes.    No one else in sight on runs down Elbow, Cliffs, Tumbler and Hammerhead.


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## rocks860 (Feb 15, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Great day on Mt Ellen today with the sunshine and empty slopes.    No one else in sight on runs down Elbow, Cliffs, Tumbler and Hammerhead.



How was cliffs? It was pretty fantastic when I skied it on Monday 


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## kingslug (Feb 15, 2020)

Everything today had the same conditions..hard pack...good stuff...


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## WWF-VT (Feb 15, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Everything today had the same conditions..hard pack...good stuff...



FWIW...I would call the groomers at Mt Ellen legitimate packed powder.  Natural snow trails were a lot of fun too.  Walt's and the lower part of Semi Tough were groomed which eliminated the water bars.


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## WinS (Feb 15, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Noticed the exact same thing. So many slows and stops. Rode it once but just rode Bravo for the rest of the day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The carpet was frozen and damaged so we have to order material to fix it. It had to be slowed down and bumped like a fixed grip without a carpet loader.


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## WinS (Feb 15, 2020)

Ok. To get ahead of question of why was GMX down for three hours midday? Amazed no one asked? The 5” diameter hose that goes from the motor to the exhaust to cool it started leaking. Try to find that on a holiday weekend. Our lift mechanics problem solved and made a temporary fix that got it running again at 3:30pm. Found a hose in New Jersey that is supposed to arrive at 1:00am. Will stay with temporary fix so no downtime tomorrow with scheduled opening 8am and will put in new hose when a bit less busy as it will take a vouokebif hours.


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## slatham (Feb 15, 2020)

WinS said:


> Ok. To get ahead of question of why was GMX down for three hours midday? Amazed no one asked? The 5” diameter hose that goes from the motor to the exhaust to cool it started leaking. Try to find that on a holiday weekend. Our lift mechanics problem solved and made a temporary fix that got it running again at 3:30pm. Found a hose in New Jersey that is supposed to arrive at 1:00am. Will stay with temporary fix so no downtime tomorrow with scheduled opening 8am and will put in new hose when a bit less busy as it will take a vouokebif hours.



Ha, the people on AZ who were at Ellen probably stayed upper mountain and didn’t even notice! Great to get in front of it Win. Couldn’t happen on a quiet Tuesday could it? I think Mt Snow management needs to attend Ski Area Communication 101 by Win Smith.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 15, 2020)

slatham said:


> Ha, the people on AZ who were at Ellen probably stayed upper mountain and didn’t even notice! Great to get in front of it Win. Couldn’t happen on a quiet Tuesday could it? I think Mt Snow management needs to attend Ski Area Communication 101 by Win Smith.



I certainly noticed it, just forgot to bring it up. I had just gotten off the T-Bar and noticed a huge line at Inverness. I rode Inverness up to North Ridge and skied Elbow-Hammerhead back to Slide Brook. I rarely ride GMX as I really just use North Ridge and Inverness. I only ride GMX to get out of the base if I’m already down there. 

Here’s the line at Inverness: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## Greg (Feb 16, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Skied a lot today
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You forgot Castlerock!


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 16, 2020)

Greg said:


> You forgot Castlerock!



Did that today! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 16, 2020)

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## ScottySkis (Feb 16, 2020)

Greg said:


> You forgot Castlerock!



Can u buy AZ back needs an owner who cares about skiers and snowboarders
Since Nick Mia all time
It's falling apart
Like all needed is bandaid
But becoming infected 
I know most of regular here agree


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## urungus (Feb 16, 2020)

Wow you really straightlined run #6, LOL.  I’ve noticed Ski Tracks had the same problem at the Peak to Peak gondola at Whistler.


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## Smellytele (Feb 16, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

Skied Mt Ellen today. It skied well. Place was dead then the lift at the top went down around 10:30 and lines built at North ridge and gmx. Took a break. Then waited in fairly long lines at gmx and north ridge. Went into exterminator woods and when I came out north ridge was ski on as the upper chair had started back up. Skied to 345 , dropped my son back off at Norwich university and drove back home. Good day


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 16, 2020)

urungus said:


> Wow you really straightlined run #6, LOL.  I’ve noticed Ski Tracks had the same problem at the Peak to Peak gondola at Whistler.



I would use slopes if they didn’t charge so much for a subscription. Another issue I’ve noticed is that you can’t leave it on when you’re walking down stairs in a lodge. Then it will calculate your slope as over 40 degrees! 


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## Hawk (Feb 17, 2020)

I used to track my data with my garmin years ago.  I just grew out of that whole data capture thing.  I found it to be a big wast of time.  I do not have a lot of that these days.  I do get the photography thing though and tend to take a few beautiful pics from time to time.  To each his own.


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## WinS (Feb 17, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Skied Mt Ellen today. It skied well. Place was dead then the lift at the top went down around 10:30 and lines built at North ridge and gmx. Took a break. Then waited in fairly long lines at gmx and north ridge. Went into exterminator woods and when I came out north ridge was ski on as the upper chair had started back up. Skied to 345 , dropped my son back off at Norwich university and drove back home. Good day
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



A washer fell off the e-brake. Simple part but the brake had to be taken apart to replace it, so it took about an hour or so.


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2020)

WinS said:


> A washer fell off the e-brake. Simple part but the brake had to be taken apart to replace it, so it took about an hour or so.



Ah thanks for the update. Had a great time skiing with my middle son. Plenty to keeps us busy at Ellen for the day. 

Plan to hit Lincoln one day and Ellen on Thursday during my youngest son’s vaca next week. 


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2020)

I know this has been discussed some where at some point on here but...
Can you ski to and from the The historic Sugarbush village? I was thinking about having lunch over there one day and was wondering when skiing, how you got there and back? Thanks


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## slatham (Feb 17, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I know this has been discussed some where at some point on here but...
> Can you ski to and from the The historic Sugarbush village? I was thinking about having lunch over there one day and was wondering when skiing, how you got there and back? Thanks



Approximately named “Out to Lunch” trail skiers left of Village Quad. Then on way back ski/traverse past the new condos down to said Quad.


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## Hawk (Feb 17, 2020)

You can ski down to Henri's or Rev / Mother Stuffers via out to lunch.  Due to the new config of the Rice brook and Gadd Brook buildings, you have to either walk up to out to lunch or walk between the  buildings over to where you can ski.


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## ducky (Feb 17, 2020)

Unfortunately, Chez Henri is not open for lunch at all this year.


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## Hawk (Feb 17, 2020)

Is that confirmed?  I heard that Henri is back and they were going to open for lunch this week and on the weekends.  Did that change?


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## ducky (Feb 17, 2020)

I called on Friday for a guest and that's what Bernard told me.


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## WinS (Feb 17, 2020)

ducky said:


> I called on Friday for a guest and that's what Bertrand told me.




Like so many, they have had difficulty getting enough staff. This is a shame, because that was a very special place to have lunch after a morning of skiing.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 17, 2020)

Just curious, why are Summit and Slide Brook run so slow? Inverness runs much faster than Summit even though they were both built the same year and have the same components. Slide Brook isn’t really slow, but considering it could go 1,100, I’m surprised it doesn’t run at at least 950. It seems to run at about 900. It’s a 13 minute ride at 900 and 10 minutes at 1,100. 13 minutes isn’t too bad, but just curious to hear the reasoning behind this. 


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2020)

WinS said:


> Like so many, they have had difficulty getting enough staff. This is a shame, because that was a very special place to have lunch after a morning of skiing.



Well if Bernard can not open then they must be short.  Sorry to hear that.
I agree totally.  What they have there is something very special, straight out of Europe and is lost at most places in the US.  I was in Zermatt this past week and did a sit down lunch pretty much every day.  It is what they do.  One of the days we stopped at Chez Verony and it was run by an older man not unlike Henri.  I laughed when he wanted my phone to take pictures.  Zermatt is a magical place that every skier should experience at least once.


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## ktrerotola (Feb 18, 2020)

ducky said:


> Anyone know of an app that shows a winter satellite view (with snow)?



Have you tried FATMAP? It shows winter views and you can track via Strava or FATMAP.


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## rocks860 (Feb 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Well if Bernard can not open then they must be short.  Sorry to hear that.
> I agree totally.  What they have there is something very special, straight out of Europe and is lost at most places in the US.  I was in Zermatt this past week and did a sit down lunch pretty much every day.  It is what they do.  One of the days we stopped at Chez Verony and it was run by an older man not unlike Henri.  I laughed when he wanted my phone to take pictures.  Zermatt is a magical place that every skier should experience at least once.
> View attachment 26320



I skied zermatt for a week on spring break when I was studying abroad in Paris in 2002/2003 and it was amazing. I would love to get back there


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Well if Bernard can not open then they must be short.  Sorry to hear that.
> I agree totally.  What they have there is something very special, straight out of Europe and is lost at most places in the US.  I was in Zermatt this past week and did a sit down lunch pretty much every day.  It is what they do.  One of the days we stopped at Chez Verony and it was run by an older man not unlike Henri.  I laughed when he wanted my phone to take pictures.  Zermatt is a magical place that every skier should experience at least once.
> View attachment 26320



We are headed to Zermatt next Thursday and will be there for a week. Doing sit down lunches at Chez Vrony and Zum See as well as a few dinners in town and plans to hit the big Apres spots like Hennu Stall, Papperla Pub, etc. 

Any advice on good terrain? I've heard good things about the Stokhorn area and have a few other notes in a Google doc but Zermatt is so massive and the Euro's seem to be extra groomer-centric.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 18, 2020)

I skied Zermatt in 2016, but at that time I wasn’t a great skier. The lunches are awesome, but they definitely eat into your ski day. 


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> We are headed to Zermatt next Thursday and will be there for a week. Doing sit down lunches at Chez Vrony and Zum See as well as a few dinners in town and plans to hit the big Apres spots like Hennu Stall, Papperla Pub, etc.
> 
> Any advice on good terrain? I've heard good things about the Stokhorn area and have a few other notes in a Google doc but Zermatt is so massive and the Euro's seem to be extra groomer-centric.


Castlerock, you sound like an adventurous type from your postings on here so I know you will love this place.  I skied around a few place in Europe and Zermatt is easily the most aesthetic place I have ever been.  I have a wealth of info.  In short get a guide, especially if there is not a lot of new fresh snow.  They know were to find it.  Bring your avalanche transverse and gear.
 - Rothhorn - Take the tram to the top and ski the front face down.  there are Several really good routes.  Cross trail # 9 and ski the woods all the way down to the bottom of the Patrullarve lift.  Don't worry you cant get lost and there are no cliffs.  There are many options.
 - Stockhorn - Take the GANT - HOHTÄLLI tram to the top.  Two options: from there take the ROTE NASE tram across and ski that ridge all the way down or take trail 28 from the tram and drop off to the right.  You will see the tracks.  do not worry as it will send you back to the lift.
 - When you are at Chez Veroni look across and you will see a wall of north facing woods.  Ski that!
 - From the top of Schwarzee, ski the north face towards the Hirli lift and bear to the right.  There are shoots and woods there and it all ends up on the traverse back to Firi. All Good.
There is snow in your long range forecast so hopefully it is good.  You want between 6-12 inches.  Big storms shut the mountain down for days with Avi control.
Advice - Go early in the morning or go late.  Between 9 and 10 at the bottow is a shit show.
When you leave the Hennu Stall, at the bottom pitch with the speed control gate, look to the Left.  You will see new Chalets Flamma, Terra and Aqua.  We stayed in Aqua.
Let me know if you need any other info.  Have a good trip.


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Rote Nase Tram and the other terminus.  The run below goes about 3000 vert I think.


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 18, 2020)

This is great intel, thank you for sharing! Those Schwarzee routes you mentioned came up during my searches and I was pretty high on them b/c it looks like my buddy and I could ski them and still meet the fiance at the same lift if she wants to take a more civilized route down.


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## ducky (Feb 18, 2020)

ktrerotola said:


> Have you tried FATMAP? It shows winter views and you can track via Strava or FATMAP.



Much better, thanks. Do you use it with a subscription? Seems to work in basic sat map without.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

What happened to this so called storm?   Sugarbush is saying 2".  Looks like it totally crapped out.
Too bad.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What happened to this so called storm?   Sugarbush is saying 2".  Looks like it totally crapped out.
> Too bad.



Mad River Glen snow reports says "Overnight the mountain received another 1-2” of snow bringing the 24 hour total up to 4-6”.


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## Smellytele (Feb 19, 2020)

Hit northern NH. Reports of 7-10


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## WinS (Feb 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What happened to this so called storm?   Sugarbush is saying 2".  Looks like it totally crapped out.
> Too bad.



Yup, but the skiing is still really good.


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 19, 2020)

ducky said:


> Much better, thanks. Do you use it with a subscription? Seems to work in basic sat map without.



On this subject, anyone notice that the one for SB had a bunch of stuff added to it? Can whoever is doing that please chill out? MRG doesn't even have the least-secret-secret-stash-of-all-time 20th Hole listed on theirs. 

Good news for SB is that there's also a few BS lines on ours and plenty of stuff that isn't mapped, but at the same time I worry some 10 day per year skier is gonna break a leg when he decides to drop into "The Saddle" during his hike to Castlerock next year.

I'm also fully aware that I'm being a bit of a hypocrite in saying all this b/c it's a resource I check out every time I visit a new resort on a ski vacation ... but at least I can see almost all those lines from the lift right?! Right? Right?!!


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 19, 2020)

This weekend and early next week aren’t looking good for the base. Upper mountain should be fine though. 


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> On this subject, anyone notice that the one for SB had a bunch of stuff added to it? Can whoever is doing that please chill out?



If you click on the "trail" you can see the name of the person that added it (or maybe last edited it...not sure exactly how it works if multiple people are involved). Some pretty well known ones aren't there, and I'd say a good majority of what is on the map are known anyway. But I do understand your point. Hard to keep this stuff secret for too long though with all these "Crowd sourced" maps nowadays...


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## WinS (Feb 19, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just curious, why are Summit and Slide Brook run so slow? Inverness runs much faster than Summit even though they were both built the same year and have the same components. Slide Brook isn’t really slow, but considering it could go 1,100, I’m surprised it doesn’t run at at least 950. It seems to run at about 900. It’s a 13 minute ride at 900 and 10 minutes at 1,100. 13 minutes isn’t too bad, but just curious to hear the reasoning behind this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We knew that you were riding Slidebrook, so we slowed it down to see if you would time it running only 900 feet per minute...........
Just kidding, it normally runs around 1.000. On day last week the lift was run a bit slower because of the off-ramp being a bit slick.  Iverness and Summit should be running about the same speed.  There are a number of reason why any given lift would be slowed down,


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> On this subject, anyone notice that the one for SB had a bunch of stuff added to it? Can whoever is doing that please chill out? MRG doesn't even have the least-secret-secret-stash-of-all-time 20th Hole listed on theirs.
> 
> Good news for SB is that there's also a few BS lines on ours and plenty of stuff that isn't mapped, but at the same time I worry some 10 day per year skier is gonna break a leg when he decides to drop into "The Saddle" during his hike to Castlerock next year.
> 
> I'm also fully aware that I'm being a bit of a hypocrite in saying all this b/c it's a resource I check out every time I visit a new resort on a ski vacation ... but at least I can see almost all those lines from the lift right?! Right? Right?!!



The kids name is Ryan Delena.  He has a whole youtube site.  My guess is he has a big look at me complex.  I am not a fan if posting all the places that are not on the map.  This has been completely debated on here.  At least he hasn't posted the best stuff.  Whatever.  you can't fix stupid.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> If you click on the "trail" you can see the name of the person that added it (or maybe last edited it...not sure exactly how it works if multiple people are involved). Some pretty well known ones aren't there, and I'd say a good majority of what is on the map are known anyway. But I do understand your point. Hard to keep this stuff secret for too long though with all these "Crowd sourced" maps nowadays...


At this point it is not about keeping a secret.  It is about keeping the numbers down.  You just have to look at Bear Claw and Gangstas to see what has happened.  Those runs get skied to the dirt, rocks and stumps and never recover anymore.  I mean if you are aware enough to find these things then enjoy.  But what is the point of saying "Hey World look at this".  You are only ruining it for yourself.


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> At this point it is not about keeping a secret.  It is about keeping the numbers down.  You just have to look at Bear Claw and Gangstas to see what has happened.  Those runs get skied to the dirt, rocks and stumps and never recover anymore.  I mean if you are aware enough to find these things then enjoy.  But what is the point of saying "Hey World look at this".  You are only ruining it for yourself.



Yea...I've never been a fan of openly publishing this stuff because I agree that it really only ruins it for yourself. Just so hard to stop it nowadays. Maybe some people don't care because they ski it only once in a while and aren't a "local"? I just googled that Ryan kid and it looks like he's skiing all over the place so he probably doesn't care about the impact to SB (or any other mountain where he published that info).

Of course I also think numbers would be going up anyway even without any info online just because it is something so many more people are interested in today. Would be interesting to know how much of the increased usage of these areas is due to online info vs other ways. I also think "exploring" and finding some of these by "being aware" is part of the fun. Having the info spoon fed via an online map ruins that part too.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

I think it has a huge impact.  So much so that on Powder days I don't ever bother with skiing trails any more first.  I go directly to my favorite tree run and hit that first.


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## Cornhead (Feb 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The kids name is Ryan Delena.  He has a whole youtube site.  My guess is he has a big look at me complex.  I am not a fan if posting all the places that are not on the map.  This has been completely debated on here.  At least he hasn't posted the best stuff.  Whatever.  you can't fix stupid.


Is this the same guy?
https://rockypointfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/677/Ryan-Delena/obituary.html
Maybe he died skiing, or someone killed him for revealing their private stash.

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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Is this the same guy?
> https://rockypointfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/677/Ryan-Delena/obituary.html
> Maybe he died skiing, or someone killed him for revealing their private stash.



I don't think so...the Ryan Delena skier has posts on Instagram as recently as today with current skiing photos.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Is this the same guy?
> https://rockypointfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/677/Ryan-Delena/obituary.html
> Maybe he died skiing, or someone killed him for revealing their private stash.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



IF so that would suck.  I guess I need to have some perspective.  I don't wish anyone dead.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 19, 2020)

WinS said:


> We knew that you were riding Slidebrook, so we slowed it down to see if you would time it running only 900 feet per minute...........
> Just kidding, it normally runs around 1.000. On day last week the lift was run a bit slower because of the off-ramp being a bit slick.  Iverness and Summit should be running about the same speed.  There are a number of reason why any given lift would be slowed down,



Only once have I seen Slide Brook run 1,000 for the public which was the Friday before MLK weekend of 2019. Inverness actually runs at a good speed for a fixed grip. I calculated it to be around 450. Summit I timed closer to 400. I rarely ever ride Summit purely based off of how slow it is. I’d much rather just lap North Ridge which runs around 950 according to your lift mechanics. 


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2020)

Your just too young and totally missed out.  I rode it when it was installed and it was going light speed.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Your just too young and totally missed out.  I rode it when it was installed and it was going light speed.



I wish I could’ve seen that. The issue with that speed is that it’s hard on the combo and depression sheave assemblies. 1,000 would be nice to see more often. I don’t know where the claim of it being the fastest detachable quad in the world at the time of installation came from. Heck, at the same ski area, there was one installed 5 years earlier that could run the same speed. 


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## machski (Feb 19, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I wish I could’ve seen that. The issue with that speed is that it’s hard on the combo and depression sheave assemblies. 1,000 would be nice to see more often. I don’t know where the claim of it being the fastest detachable quad in the world at the time of installation came from. Heck, at the same ski area, there was one installed 5 years earlier that could run the same speed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was probably a Les-ism.  You know, like White Heat being the steepest/widest/longest?  SlideBrook was probably the fastest/longest HSQ when installed :}

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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 19, 2020)

Sorry if this was answered already - is gmx @ellen back to normal this weekend. gf is irrationally scared of gate house greens, so will put her on gmx and Ellen park lift


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 19, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Sorry if this was answered already - is gmx @ellen back to normal this weekend. gf is irrationally scared of gate house greens, so will put her on gmx and Ellen park lift



It’s running all of this week if that’s what you’re asking. It is still on diesel power though. 


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## Orca (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> At this point it is not about keeping a secret.  It is about keeping the numbers down.  You just have to look at Bear Claw and Gangstas to see what has happened.  Those runs get skied to the dirt, rocks and stumps and never recover anymore.  I mean if you are aware enough to find these things then enjoy.  But what is the point of saying "Hey World look at this".  You are only ruining it for yourself.



Game is changing. Apps and GPS have made info on sidecountry easier attain and that trend will inevitably continue. I am sympathetic to keeping sidecountry lines quiet, but ultimately it is a zero sum mentality -- I get mine by keeping someone else out. Given that sidecountry is in increasing demand (look at all the little kids in the woods, they grow up you know), a place like Sugarbush could optimize its competitive position in the market by cutting and opening more sidecountry. Sugarbush has the advantage of copious terrain over which to do this. A pod served by a modest fixed grip double and dedicated to "no trail" skiing would be unique in the east. Don't believe such tree thinning can be done: look no further than MRG with its boatloads of tree skiing.


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## AbominableSnowman (Feb 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> Game is changing. Apps and GPS have made info on sidecountry easier attain and that trend will inevitably continue. I am sympathetic to keeping sidecountry lines quiet, but ultimately it is a zero sum mentality -- I get mine by keeping someone else out. Given that sidecountry is in increasing demand (look at all the little kids in the woods, they grow up you know), a place like Sugarbush could optimize its competitive position in the market by cutting and opening more sidecountry. Sugarbush has the advantage of copious terrain over which to do this. A pod served by a modest fixed grip double and dedicated to "no trail" skiing would be unique in the east. Don't believe such tree thinning can be done: look no further than MRG with its boatloads of tree skiing.



Surely you meant Mt. Snow or Okemo; there is no tree skiing at MRG....nothing to see there...


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## Newpylong (Feb 20, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Only once have I seen Slide Brook run 1,000 for the public which was the Friday before MLK weekend of 2019. Inverness actually runs at a good speed for a fixed grip. I calculated it to be around 450. Summit I timed closer to 400. I rarely ever ride Summit purely based off of how slow it is. I’d much rather just lap North Ridge which runs around 950 according to your lift mechanics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The moral of the story if you're not there every day and rough "timing" does not portray an accurate overall picture. As Win said, there are many reasons why a lift is running slower or faster one day. With modern lifts and "dial a speed" it's a lot different than analog controls ie stop, slow, fast.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2020)

Orca said:


> Given that sidecountry is in increasing demand (look at all the little kids in the woods, they grow up you know).



And in some cases they're also the ones showing their parents some of these spots. I recall a few years ago being on Super Bravo with a bunch of very young kids that were talking about skiing Bear Claw. No doubt demand for this type of terrain is increasingly quite a bit... Even the ski school programs regularly go in the woods.


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## ktrerotola (Feb 20, 2020)

ducky said:


> Much better, thanks. Do you use it with a subscription? Seems to work in basic sat map without.



I don’t have the paid subscription. Put my paid subscription funds towards OpenSnow. 

Funny enough, I haven’t tracked resort skiing in a few years (back when Snocru was “big”), but have considered tracking in FATMAP. I will, however, track backcountry turns in TrailForks. 



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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2020)

I scout, recon, hike and visit my potential back country lines in the summer and then Ski them in the winter.  I never post them or tell anybody were I have been or where I am considering going.  Only my ski partner wife.  You know what?  When I get there and ski these lines, there are absolutely no tracks.....ever.  This used to be the case for side country also.  No more.  Today this is totally lost with a young culture that wants everything handed to them.  I will just keep my secrets to myself and never give them up.  Posting them on any form of electronic tracking system is just giving it away for free.  I will have no part of that.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> a bunch of very young kids that were talking about skiing Bear Claw



kids go on YouTube... hell if I can be resourceful enough to figure out sidecountry and stashes with easy YouTube searches the kids are twice as good at it.

Apparently John Egan didn't consider it much of a secret in 2012

Agree with Orca's sentiment. Sidecountry is fair game, and locals have basically already lost these mountains to high prices. And if I'm traveling to pay high prices, I'm going there to ski the goods and not putz around.

High traffic mountains like Sugarbush can only benefit from adding more off map terrain to the map, knowing that it will serve to help preserve the *real* off map terrain just a little more.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

and look at this beautiful little bastard mapping out 4 different chutes past Paradise...






You want freshies on that stuff, be first on a powder day. Same rules apply to everyone

People who act like sidecountry at lift serviced resorts is sacred terrain make me laugh. Go skin up a mountain and have it all to yourself.


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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2020)

Ya bear Claw and all the paradise Chutes are all part of the mix now.  That is fine. They are obvious.  There are other places that are now on the radar that were never even considered until people posted them online.  It's ok.  I am going to get there first anyway.  I just hate that I have to race to ski them.  And then there are the gems that most people will never find.  There are always those.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> And then there are the gems that most people will never find.  There are always those.



Well I know asking you won't get me there any quicker than ducking around in the woods on my own 

But do you really give up on skiing chutes and sidecountry if it's tracked out? I'll take it any way I can get it. You're pretty lucky if you ski up there regularly... you're getting a lot more fresh runs in than the tourists by a long shot.

And you know I'm sure at least 4x as much hidden stashes at SB. If you ski a place like that often enough you can create your own "go to" lines. I can think of several areas that get low overall traffic and have nice fall lines through the woods that I just haven't had time to fully explore.


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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2020)

Tuna the thing is that you actually go out and find this shit on your own like it did.  I can appreciate that.  it seems to be a lost art.  It's call adventure.  I'm just being an old crusty fart.  I too will take whatever I can get.  I just don't understand the point of posting it on line.  I never will.  Maybe we will cross paths some day.  I always have an extra Lawsons in my pack.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 20, 2020)

What the hell is going on?? Lower FIS is being groomed? Last time I skied it with natural snow it was great. What’s the point in grooming it? 


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## Hawk (Feb 20, 2020)

They knew you were going to ski it and bitch so they groomed it.   Ha ha  ;-)


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Maybe we will cross paths some day.  I always have an extra Lawsons in my pack.



I keep thinking I have eye drops in my ski jacked but each time I check it turns out to be a dropper bottle of THC tincture with grand daddy purple terps. Fair trade -- then you show me the goods


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I think it has a huge impact.  So much so that on Powder days I don't ever bother with skiing trails any more first.  I go directly to my favorite tree run and hit that first.



This is whats the biggest bummer in all this to me...powder days are more like powder hours these days and it takes legitimate plan of attack down to the turn to maximize your returns. I'd estimate I'm keyed into about half of the unmapped terrain at SB so on the rare powder day that overlaps with me being on mtn it's always a major internal debate.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Tuna the thing is that you actually go out and find this shit on your own like it did.  I can appreciate that.  it seems to be a lost art.  It's call adventure.  I'm just being an old crusty fart.  I too will take whatever I can get.  I just don't understand the point of posting it on line.  I never will.  Maybe we will cross paths some day.  I always have an extra Lawsons in my pack.



Just back from BC.  The lead cat guide was in Pakistan scouting out lines with the help of a military heli for a bunch of super rich guys to ski in a few weeks.  Now that's an adventure.  and he got 100k for the month of work.

here's my bearclaw video from 2012.  My daughter was 11 then.  https://youtu.be/tnHSlyrKQ98


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## HowieT2 (Feb 20, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> This is whats the biggest bummer in all this to me...powder days are more like powder hours these days and it takes legitimate plan of attack down to the turn to maximize your returns. I'd estimate I'm keyed into about half of the unmapped terrain at SB so on the rare powder day that overlaps with me being on mtn it's always a major internal debate.



Hasnt it always been this way?
two words for you, cat skiing.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> This is whats the biggest bummer in all this to me...powder days are more like powder hours these days and it takes legitimate plan of attack down to the turn to maximize your returns.



I go into basically every ski day with that mentality. I only even expect half good conditions if I'm in time for first chair and I typically have the whole day planned with room for variation.


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## shadyjay (Feb 20, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> What the hell is going on?? Lower FIS is being groomed? Last time I skied it with natural snow it was great. What’s the point in grooming it?



Sometimes it's done prior to a big dump.  Other times its done to just reset the bumps if they have become misshapen.  I've seen Lower FIS groomed a few times, so it does happen.  Same goes for Semi-Tough.  At South, the oddest grooming I experienced was The Mall, which was done just before the old double was removed, to make tower removal easier.  Talk about a fast run that was!


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## Smellytele (Feb 20, 2020)

Hawk = old man screaming “get off my lawn!” [emoji36][emoji1]


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 20, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> Sometimes it's done prior to a big dump.  Other times its done to just reset the bumps if they have become misshapen.  I've seen Lower FIS groomed a few times, so it does happen.  Same goes for Semi-Tough.  At South, the oddest grooming I experienced was The Mall, which was done just before the old double was removed, to make tower removal easier.  Talk about a fast run that was!



Thanks for the info. Think it’s in preparation for the possible snow/ra*n next week? 


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 20, 2020)

Possible base builder which is still needed to give us a moderately lengthy spring.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> Sometimes it's done prior to a big dump.  Other times its done to just reset the bumps if they have become misshapen.  I've seen Lower FIS groomed a few times, so it does happen.  Same goes for Semi-Tough.  At South, the oddest grooming I experienced was The Mall, which was done just before the old double was removed, to make tower removal easier.  Talk about a fast run that was!



Hah! I was just telling someone pretty recently about The Mall being groomed that one time. Was quite a different trail for sure!

As for Lower FIS, yup, I've seen it groomed a bunch of times over the years as well. Without having skied it in a couple weeks, can't say why they thought it should be done this time. Plenty of reasons to do so though as you noted.


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## rocks860 (Feb 20, 2020)

It was getting a little thin between some of the bumps when I skied it last week but I’ve definitely seen it much worse


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## Griswold (Feb 20, 2020)

There’s nothing I like to read more on here than people complaining that “their” “secret” stashes are no longer secret because of an online post or YouTube video that gets a couple hundred views.  Do you really think the people actively looking online for info aren’t just as willing to following some obvious tracks into the woods?  Or have you secret stash owners figured out a way to float over snow and not create tracks into them?



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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 20, 2020)

Griswold said:


> There’s nothing I like to read more on here than people complaining that “their” “secret” stashes are no longer secret because of an online post or YouTube video that gets a couple hundred views.  Do you really think the people actively looking online for info aren’t just as willing to following some obvious tracks into the woods?  Or have you secret stash owners figured out a way to float over snow and not create tracks into them?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Agreed. 


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## Whitey (Feb 21, 2020)

Griswold said:


> There’s nothing I like to read more on here than people complaining that “their” “secret” stashes are no longer secret because of an online post or YouTube video that gets a couple hundred views.  Do you really think the people actively looking online for info aren’t just as willing to following some obvious tracks into the woods?  Or have you secret stash owners figured out a way to float over snow and not create tracks into them?



This.

I was going to say something along the lines of this.    A couple of years ago I did a TR where I talked about some "secret" stuff we went into.   I thought about not including it as I might "give it away".   And then I realized that on this northeast skiers forum a well trafficked post might get a 600-700 views, sometimes a lot less than that.   Of those, how many of those people would go to that ski area and ski that "secret" area because of what they read in that post?   Maybe 10-20?  If that.  And how many of those people would have found that secret area anyway as they are hardcore enough to be reading a skiers forum?  So, what are we "hiding"?  

I think the increase of people "finding" these secret areas is due to an increase in the enthusiasm for tree skiing in the northeast.   Many, many more skiers and the fearless younger set are searching for these opportunities when they go skiing in the northeast than there were 20 years ago.   Almost all ski areas have changed their policies about tree skiing and have actively opened up more of that type of terrain.   

It's about the increase in the % of the ski population that is looking for that type of experience, not because tuna (or anyone else) posted a pic of themselves on facebook dropping into a "secret" chute at a ski area.


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## Orca (Feb 21, 2020)

Griswold said:


> Or have you secret stash owners figured out a way to float over snow and not create tracks into them?



Yes, I float. And it's my secret and I'm not telling anyone!


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## Orca (Feb 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I scout, recon, hike and visit my potential back country lines in the summer and then Ski them in the winter.  I never post them or tell anybody were I have been or where I am considering going.  Only my ski partner wife.  You know what?  When I get there and ski these lines, there are absolutely no tracks.....ever.  This used to be the case for side country also.  No more.  Today this is totally lost with a young culture that wants everything handed to them.  I will just keep my secrets to myself and never give them up.  Posting them on any form of electronic tracking system is just giving it away for free.  I will have no part of that.



Hawk makes a salient point: effort matters, both in investigation and getting your arse out there early


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## dustyroads (Feb 21, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Just back from BC.  The lead cat guide was in Pakistan scouting out lines with the help of a military heli for a bunch of super rich guys to ski in a few weeks.  Now that's an adventure.  and he got 100k for the month of work.
> 
> What Cat Operation were you at?


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## Smellytele (Feb 21, 2020)

So it’s okay to pay someone to show you were the secret stashes are but not to get the info for free on the interwebs? Only rich people can ski those stashes.


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## Whitey (Feb 21, 2020)

Orca said:


> Yes, I float. And it's my secret and I'm not telling anyone!



I think after reading Tuna's post about his "eye drops", it is pretty certain that he's "floating" over the snow most days. . .


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## 56fish (Feb 21, 2020)

Whitey said:


> This.
> 
> I was going to say something along the lines of this.    A couple of years ago I did a TR where I talked about some "secret" stuff we went into.   I thought about not including it as I might "give it away".   And then I realized that on this northeast skiers forum a well trafficked post might get a 600-700 views, sometimes a lot less than that.   Of those, how many of those people would go to that ski area and ski that "secret" area because of what they read in that post?   May 10-20?  If that.  And how many of those people would have found that secret area anyway as they are hardcore enough to be reading a skiers forum?  So, what are we "hiding"?
> 
> ...



Chicken or egg  ...  images on screens drive sales :beer:


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 21, 2020)

Whitey said:


> I think after reading Tuna's post about his "eye drops", it is pretty certain that he's "floating" over the snow most days. . .



those get saved for apres ski... I'm a coffee man while I'm skiing. I'm always a little nervous about serious injuries, so alertness/awakeness=good. The last thing I want is a helicopter ride to the hospital while I'm impaired, or God forbid cause injury to someone else.


Re secret stashes about 1/3rd of them I've found by poking around or following random people into rabbit holes, 1/3rd I've been clued into on this forum, and the other 1/3rd I found on YouTube

Like at Smuggs last week I skied Weed Bag, Mustache and Back Bowls all 1st time because it's not a mountain I get to very often. I did a little research on NewSchoolers and YouTube, basically finding names of the stashes and then YouTubing to confirm how to find them etc. And a couple posters here answered a couple questions on the back bowl situation.

modern life


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> HowieT2 said:
> 
> 
> > Just back from BC.  The lead cat guide was in Pakistan scouting out lines with the help of a military heli for a bunch of super rich guys to ski in a few weeks.  Now that's an adventure.  and he got 100k for the month of work.
> ...


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## ktrerotola (Feb 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I scout, recon, hike and visit my potential back country lines in the summer and then Ski them in the winter.  I never post them or tell anybody were I have been or where I am considering going.  Only my ski partner wife.  You know what?  When I get there and ski these lines, there are absolutely no tracks.....ever.  This used to be the case for side country also.  No more.  Today this is totally lost with a young culture that wants everything handed to them.  I will just keep my secrets to myself and never give them up.  Posting them on any form of electronic tracking system is just giving it away for free.  I will have no part of that.



I hear you Hawk. Any tracking I do is uploaded privately (and really done for 1) safety in the Backcountry and 2) future self reference) - I’m definitely not sharing that. However, I will reference what other people have tracked to inform my summer/fall scouting efforts. 

But whoever said “powder hours not powder day” is so spot on. Amazing how quick we see it all get tracked out.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 21, 2020)

It is annoying that people are posting these routes on FATMAP and elsewhere, but what are you gonna do?(_Immediately goes to check if someone put up a route for the South Bowl at Cannon..._


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 21, 2020)

Griswold said:


> Theres nothing I like to read more on here than people complaining that their secret stashes are no longer secret because of an online post or YouTube video that gets a couple hundred views.  Do you really think the people actively looking online for info arent just as willing to following some obvious tracks into the woods?  Or have you secret stash owners figured out a way to float over snow and not create tracks into them?



I take off my skis and carefully climb trees limb to limb until it's safe enough to drop in. Leave No Trace. 

But realistically I do think there's a legitimate difference between talking about it on a place like this forum which seems to have maybe 2-3 dozen active participants vs. logging stuff on FATMAP or Strava.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Hawk = old man screaming “get off my lawn!” [emoji36][emoji1]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yup, you are basically correct.  although is does make me fell better to go on that rand occasionally.  I will now go fade back onto my woods lair.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 21, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> But realistically I do think there's a legitimate difference between talking about it on a place like this forum which seems to have maybe 2-3 dozen active participants vs. logging stuff on FATMAP or Strava.






> There are currently 864 users online. 59 members and 805 guests


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2020)

This is the internet and we live in America.  To that extent you can have whatever opinion you want.  But I am not showing anyone anything unless you come to me and ask and show me you can actually ski.  I do share on occasion.  Just like Treeskier and others did for people like me and Orca.  Howie is a different animal.  He appears and then disappears in a white puff of snow.  I never know where he is going.  The community in the back country is the same people day in and day out.  I see the same faces at the bus and in the woods every weekend.  But my favorite is when I see people in the woods that ask "where does this go" or "can i follow you"  It takes all I have not to tell them to go blow or send them in the wrong direction.  I don't because I feel responsible and usually screw up my own plan to get them out.  I truly hate that.


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## sankaty (Feb 21, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I take off my skis and carefully climb trees limb to limb until it's safe enough to drop in. Leave No Trace.



This is why I scan for places where snow has been disturbed on tree branches.  If you're following tracks in the snow, you've already lost.


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## Los (Feb 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This is the internet and we live in America.  To that extent you can have whatever opinion you want.  But I am not showing anyone anything unless you come to me and ask and show me you can actually ski.  I do share on occasion.  Just like Treeskier and others did for people like me and Orca.  Howie is a different animal.  He appears and then disappears in a white puff of snow.  I never know where he is going.  The community in the back country is the same people day in and day out.  I see the same faces at the bus and in the woods every weekend.  But my favorite is when I see people in the woods that ask "where does this go" or "can i follow you"  It takes all I have not to tell them to go blow or send them in the wrong direction.  I don't because I feel responsible and usually screw up my own plan to get them out.  I truly hate that.



Wow. Just... wow.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2020)

Wow what?


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This is the internet and we live in America.  To that extent you can have whatever opinion you want.  But I am not showing anyone anything unless you come to me and ask and show me you can actually ski.  I do share on occasion.  Just like Treeskier and others did for people like me and Orca.  Howie is a different animal.  He appears and then disappears in a white puff of snow.  I never know where he is going.  The community in the back country is the same people day in and day out.  I see the same faces at the bus and in the woods every weekend.  But my favorite is when I see people in the woods that ask "where does this go" or "can i follow you"  It takes all I have not to tell them to go blow or send them in the wrong direction.  I don't because I feel responsible and usually screw up my own plan to get them out.  I truly hate that.




Lol!  I don't even know where Im going or where I am for that matter.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Lol!  I don't even know where Im going or where I am for that matter.


you mean like this?


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## kingslug (Feb 21, 2020)

Read Bugaboo Dreams...about the invention of heli skiing and hiking..very interesting how they did it back then...


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 21, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> you mean like this?
> View attachment 26351



Damn snowballs ruining all that fresh powder. How can you even enjoy that?


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## Orca (Feb 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This is the internet and we live in America.  To that extent you can have whatever opinion you want.  But I am not showing anyone anything unless you come to me and ask and show me you can actually ski.  I do share on occasion.  Just like Treeskier and others did for people like me and Orca.  Howie is a different animal.  He appears and then disappears in a white puff of snow.  I never know where he is going.  The community in the back country is the same people day in and day out.  I see the same faces at the bus and in the woods every weekend.  But my favorite is when I see people in the woods that ask "where does this go" or "can i follow you"  It takes all I have not to tell them to go blow or send them in the wrong direction.  I don't because I feel responsible and usually screw up my own plan to get them out.  I truly hate that.



I can personally attest that Hawk has a generous spirit and is a lot of fun to ski trees with. He's even pointed me in the right direction a time or two.


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## 180 (Feb 21, 2020)

How was it today?
What is the crowd expectations? thanks+


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## ducky (Feb 22, 2020)

Article on snowmaking...


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...?action=click&module=Features&pgtype=Homepage


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## MorningWoods (Feb 22, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I take off my skis and carefully climb trees limb to limb until it's safe enough to drop in. Leave No Trace.
> 
> But realistically I do think there's a legitimate difference between talking about it on a place like this forum which seems to have maybe 2-3 dozen active participants vs. logging stuff on FATMAP or Strava.



I think it’s a combination of technology, better equipment and the growing popularity of backcountry skiing. Just look at the skimos and the wait list associated with that program. If you’re worried about people finding lines reasonably accessible off of a lift served resort in this day and age, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. I wouldn’t count marked woods trails on the sugarbush map. That’s crazy town, of course those get skied to death. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 22, 2020)

Great day today. A bit crowded but good conditions other than the wind blown stuff off of Bravo. Lower FIS skied great groomed but it makes the runout seem so much longer. I skied Exterminator and Spillsville for the first time too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2020)

fun at Lincoln Peak today, especially walking to the car at ~3:45 as a hundred costumed dogs were all arriving and walking past me


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## Orca (Feb 22, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fun at Lincoln Peak today, especially walking to the car at ~3:45 as a hundred costumed dogs were all arriving and walking past me



Have some respect for the women of the valley!


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## 1dog (Feb 23, 2020)

Orca said:


> Have some respect for the women of the valley!



I shouted out to the pups  ' you lying dog-faced pony soldiers!'

No crowds at Lincoln - if any lines - 5 mins 10:30-11:30 HG at 2 - 10 chairs in front of me at the Rock at 9:45-10 AM.

Same later in day.

Everyone has spread out to go to other  Ikon mountains maybe? 

trees were good - the wet snow/rain early in week packed it down. 

lots of newbies out there - just like each of us were some time, somewhere. . . 

Any news on next years arrangements w regard to passes? People want to know. . . .


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 23, 2020)

Very warm today but good conditions early in the day. Started at Ellen and went back to Lincoln around 10:30. I timed the bus too: 20 minutes. Keep in mind this was the first run of the morning (8:00) so there were no crowds to wait for... 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 23, 2020)

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## Hawk (Feb 23, 2020)

Orca said:


> Have some respect for the women of the valley!



LOL  Nice


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## Hawk (Feb 23, 2020)

This weekend was really big fun for my wife and I.  We lapped woods run after run on Saturday.  First time this year.  Rode singes line all Saturday so we didn't feel the lines as much.  Today everybody left.  No lines.  lift line and Middle earth softened and were great.  No complaints. Did Slidebrook a bunch.  Coverage was fine.  Actually my faith was a little restored.  Skied several places that no one had been.  I guess the internet has not ruined everything.


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## mikec142 (Feb 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> But my favorite is when I see people in the woods that ask "where does this go" or "can i follow you"  It takes all I have not to tell them to go blow or send them in the wrong direction.  I don't because I feel responsible and usually screw up my own plan to get them out.  I truly hate that.



Can I follow you?  :razz:


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 24, 2020)

lol based on this thread I set out to find bear claw, which I’ve probably skied before as I’ve explored most of the gap between HG and CR just not knowing names. I’ve skied the easier entrance to the church once a few years ago. Anyway, I set out to find bear claw, and I found it, but managed to cliff out on the way to it. I had a nice skiable path but noticed at least one set of footprints climbing back up. I decided to roll the dice and proceeded. It wasn’t a bad cliff, maybe a 10-15 footer with a gap in the middle so you could hop to it, pivot and hop down to the clear area below. I successfully hopped to the first landing. Then, as I am pivoting to turn mid air and stick the second drop, my high ski caught a branch and it spun me out and I fell on my shoulder and kind of my head. Was fine, got up, skied away, had a great run. Gotta go to know.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 24, 2020)

How much of an affect did this warm weather have on the snow cover? 


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2020)

The overall coverage and snow depth so far has not gone down that much but the condition of the snow will be just like any other time that it gets warm and then it freezes.  Unless of course we get some snow.  The forecast is looking a little better on that front.  I think the higher up the hill you go the more snow you will see by Thursday night.  There is also talk of Upslope.  We will see.


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## Smellytele (Feb 25, 2020)

Talk 8-12 through Thursday. Wind is looking nasty at45-55 with 70mph gusts


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 26, 2020)

One issue that I’ve noticed lately has been the lack of beginner terrain on the Lincoln side of the mountain. Most beginners gravitate towards the Gate House Express which also happens to be the most crowded lift on the mountain. Once at the top of Gate House, the only obvious easy way down is Pushover. The main issue with Pushover is the park rats bombing down it. Do you think that it will ever be a possibility to cut another trail to the skier’s right of Birch similar to the photo shown here? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 26, 2020)

^this. my girlfriend is a true beginner and not very likely to ever progress to intermediate. the one time she skied at Lincoln peak she experienced icy pushover, with zipping park kids, and she fell a few times and she yelled and cursed at me, and now she won’t ski at Lincoln Peak. There really is nothing there for the beginner who has progressed just a little past the bunny slopes.


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## WinS (Feb 26, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ^this. my girlfriend is a true beginner and not very likely to ever progress to intermediate. the one time she skied at Lincoln peak she experienced icy pushover, with zipping park kids, and she fell a few times and she yelled and cursed at me, and now she won’t ski at Lincoln Peak. There really is nothing there for the beginner who has progressed just a little past the bunny slopes.



Hmm.  Somehow lots of first timer skiers and riders are still here and quite good. 

As far as beginner off of North Lynx a better option is skier’s left of Sunrise.


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## WinS (Feb 26, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Talk 8-12 through Thursday. Wind is looking nasty at45-55 with 70mph gusts
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



The worst is forecasted to pass through in the morning. We should get some decent accumulation on the mountain.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 26, 2020)

WinS said:


> Hmm.  Somehow lots of first timer skiers and riders are still here and quite good.
> 
> As far as beginner off of North Lynx a better option is skier’s left of Sunrise.



You’re right about it being better to the skier’s left of Sunrise. Much better profile with no double fall line. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2020)

There's another reason why skier's right of Birch would be a potentially unpopular option... :grin:


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 26, 2020)

The same for skier's left of sunrise.


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## Sirbannedalot (Feb 26, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> One issue that I’ve noticed lately has been the lack of beginner terrain on the Lincoln side of the mountain. Most beginners gravitate towards the Gate House Express which also happens to be the most crowded lift on the mountain. Once at the top of Gate House, the only obvious easy way down is Pushover. The main issue with Pushover is the park rats bombing down it. Do you think that it will ever be a possibility to cut another trail to the skier’s right of Birch similar to the photo shown here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a trail there if you ski the trees.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

Sirbannedalot said:


> There is a trail there if you ski the trees.



But this is beginner terrain and I’m pretty sure a run through the woods is quite the opposite of that. 


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## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> But this is beginner terrain and I’m pretty sure a run through the woods is quite the opposite of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Right people wouldn’t be happy if you built a run where there was already a tree run is what they are saying.


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## ducky (Feb 27, 2020)

Kusty - Consider getting her a lesson with an instructor. SB has a really good crew of PSIA/AASI certified pros and offers a first-timer program which includes 3 lessons and a season pass for $300. My experience has been that trying to learn with a significant other can be frustrating. I've seen newbies doing great then fall apart when their BF shows up mid-lesson to see how they're doing. Just a thought.


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## Zermatt (Feb 27, 2020)

ducky said:


> Kusty - Consider getting her a lesson with an instructor. SB has a really good crew of PSIA/AASI certified pros and offers a first-timer program which includes 3 lessons and a season pass for $300. My experience has been that trying to learn with a significant other can be frustrating. I've seen newbies doing great then fall apart when their BF shows up mid-lesson to see how they're doing. Just a thought.



Pretty sure they are not offering 3 lessons and a season pass next season.


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## ducky (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> Pretty sure they are not offering 3 lessons and a season pass next season.



Correct, remainder of 2019/2020 season or get the lessons beginning of 2020/2021 (starts Nov 30th) for next year's pass. Add a fourth lesson and get new skis or snowboard added, total $399.

https://sugarbush.com/plan/deals/first-timer-to-life-timer-program/


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> But this is beginner terrain and I’m pretty sure a run through the woods is quite the opposite of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Considering the terrain neither side would most certainly not be a place for a beginner trail.  It is steep and is off camber.  The trail would have to go way out and then come back to take out the steepness.


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

Going up tonight.  Hoping that the winds don't shut down too much although I will have my skins just in case.  Might be a good day for Rochester.  On Saturday night it is the Grift at Gate house 8:00 i believe.  I will most certainly be there.


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## AbominableSnowman (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> Hmm.  Somehow lots of first timer skiers and riders are still here and quite good.
> 
> As far as beginner off of North Lynx a better option is skier’s left of Sunrise.



So, ^this response does come across as a bit "tone deaf" and incomplete, and I suspect that - given another chance - a more informed response would be made.

At Lincoln Peak, at least, the amount of beginner/low intermediate terrain seems quite limited relative to more advanced terrain.  Furthermore, most of it is serviced by the Gate House lift, and there are often long lift lines there, as well as heavy traffic on some of the beginner runs.  These are observations, not criticisms.  The Lincoln Peak ski area is what it is, and it seems likely that current boundaries and regulations limit the options available to deal with the issue of limited beginner terrain there.

Mt. Ellen may offer more options for beginners and low intermediates, and the Slidebrook lift (when/if it runs) plus bus service offer a convenient means to get over there from Lincoln Peak, so that helps the situation a bit during the months that Mt. Ellen is open.

It seems likely that other mountains represent better options for beginners and intermediates aspiring to improve their ski abilities, and an enterprising individual/group might recognize that and come up with a novel plan to leverage the complementary assets of those other mountains...perhaps in the form of a partner "learn to ski" program.

Yet perhaps the ever-increasing number of new skiers joining the ranks make such forward-thinking ideas unnecessary.  Oh wait...:wink:

It does seem that a run to skier's left of Sunrise would represent a better option for a new intermediate run than to skier's right of Birch.  Unmentioned, though, was that such a run might not likely be permitted by the Forestry Service, as would a proposed lift running from near the top of the Village Quad up to the clearing at the top of Gate House lift (which would provide a means to ease the lines at Gate House), as several have proposed.

That being written, the advanced terrain at Lincoln Peak is quite good, and there is some excellent tree skiing there, too - just like Stowe and Jay.

It does sound as though a bit more enforcement of speed and control in the beginner areas referenced by Kusty would be appreciated [and reduce potential liability issues]....


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

I can't relate to this so I guess I will stay out of it.  BUT....  In general Sugarbush is experiencing major growth as it is.  Cutting a couple of beginners trails will make no difference to the locals or the regulars or most people in general.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

The issue is unless Slide Brook runs more, the majority of beginner skiers that go to Lincoln will stay there. Since the Farmhouse etc. is at Lincoln, most beginners start their day there. I also think beginner skiers just aren’t adventurous to go over to Ellen. The nice thing about Ellen’s beginner terrain is that you can ski a green all the way down from the top of GMX (Northstar). Last year there were some boarders on the chair with me complaining about the lack of parks at Lincoln. I told them about Reimergasse and Ellen and they rode Slide Brook over to ski at the park. Each side offers something unique and if they are connected, many of the issues that pertain to one particular side can be solved. I always make it a point to ski both sides in one day as they both have something unique to offer.


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## ducky (Feb 27, 2020)

Was raining hard this morning at our place until 8:00, 3 miles from the mountain at 1,100'. Now dumping all snow and hard; forecast to keep coming. Zero wind at our place but see from the report it is windy uphill.

Heading up.


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Considering the terrain neither side would most certainly not be a place for a beginner trail.  It is steep and is off camber.  The trail would have to go way out and then come back to take out the steepness.



Correct but feasible.


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## tumbler (Feb 27, 2020)

If you think people bomb down Pushover then you have never really experienced Northstar.  Taking the features off Slow Poke would help as that is a good trail to build confidence on the pitch at the end.  But I'm sure they don't want to have all the features at Mt Ellen (I'm good with it though...).  Look at the crowds at Gatehouse lift on the weekends, huge amount of beginners and low intermediates that want to ski over there.  Up the capacity of GH to a 6, build the lodge at the top of GH and cut a work road trail like Jester skiers left of Sunrise so people can spread out.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2020)

AbominableSnowman said:


> So, ^this response does come across as a bit "tone deaf" and incomplete, and I suspect that - given another chance - a more informed response would be made.
> 
> At Lincoln Peak, at least, the amount of beginner/low intermediate terrain seems quite limited relative to more advanced terrain.  Furthermore, most of it is serviced by the Gate House lift, and there are often long lift lines there, as well as heavy traffic on some of the beginner runs.  These are observations, not criticisms.  The Lincoln Peak ski area is what it is, and it seems likely that current boundaries and regulations limit the options available to deal with the issue of limited beginner terrain there.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply I didn’t feel like typing.

Honestly was a bit surprised at the tone of win’s response. I don’t think my comment was rude or unreasonable, and I do think my comment holds a lot of truth. And I love sugarbush, ski there regularly, but it’s an issue when my SO comes along for the weekend. And even if we base at Mount Ellen, the girlfriend skis for 2 hours max and then is a fixture in the lodge til I’m done, and mount Ellen isn’t a comfortable place for her to hang due to the crowded old lodge full of racer kids. I know that part is being fixed with the lodge upgrade


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## tumbler (Feb 27, 2020)

So unlimited Ikon next year on full pass and blackouts on base pass...oh boy.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2020)

ducky said:


> Kusty - Consider getting her a lesson with an instructor. SB has a really good crew of PSIA/AASI certified pros and offers a first-timer program which includes 3 lessons and a season pass for $300. My experience has been that trying to learn with a significant other can be frustrating. I've seen newbies doing great then fall apart when their BF shows up mid-lesson to see how they're doing. Just a thought.



Thanks, yea, she’s had some lessons. She’s just plateaued at a very beginner level, mostly bc she had major hip surgery two years ago and is a bit limited physically. She’s not hobbling around nyc but she hasn’t been able to run or surf since her surgery. And she was a runner and a surfer the way I am a skier. It’s horrible for her.


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

It is an interesting topic that I really never thought about. But looking at a map there really isn't that much true beginner terrain at LP. You can argue that tons of kids successfully manage to progress through the ski school programs each year even with the limited beginner terrain. But I also think it is probably easier for kids to pick up skiing and progress through a program like the ones SB has even without a ton of beginner terrain choices vs an "older" person trying to do it (and by older I really mean anyone just learning to ski that isn't a kid). Taking a program like the "First timer to life timer" one would definitely help I think. Don't know if Kusty's gf did anything like that.

I also have often thought that having a terrain park off a beginner run was a bit strange though. It really does encourage too much use of Pushover by people that have no respect for the fact that it is a beginner trail. So I can definitely understand why Kusty's gf had an issue there.


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> So unlimited Ikon next year on full pass and blackouts on base pass...oh boy.



I'm not surprised by unlimited on full and definitely expected that. I am surprised by unlimited (with blackouts) on base though. That's the part that concerns me a bit more...we'll see what happens.


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## AbominableSnowman (Feb 27, 2020)

Your post came across as reasonable to me, Kusty.  Perhaps the inclusion of a few reasonable solutions to the issues [something everybody might consider], and an explicit acknowledgement that there are limitations due to terrain and regulations may have made it a bit more "palatable" initially; I can see where someone might bristle a little bit when anything that can be perceived as negative is written about "their baby"...and it also seems possible that if someone were to ski a few good runs before hitting the "Reply" button, the response might be more constructive.   

Still, overall, most posts on this thread seem relatively harmless and w/o a lot of vitriol, at least.

Here's to the upcoming weekend


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## tumbler (Feb 27, 2020)

My guess is he is bracing for the Ikon displeasure.  I'm bummed out.  Big time.


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## NYDB (Feb 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not surprised by unlimited on full and definitely expected that. I am surprised by unlimited (with blackouts) on base though. That's the part that concerns me a bit more...we'll see what happens.



yeah, you'll probably end up with the crowd inversion factor on Holiday Weekends like the big places out west.  Some relatives that go to Stratton report the same.  The random saturday in january after a good snow week is busier than mlk sat.


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## teleo (Feb 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> So unlimited Ikon next year on full pass and blackouts on base pass...oh boy.


This scares the sh!t out of me.  I guess we can only pray it isn't the sh!tshow that mlk sunday was every sat next year[emoji31][emoji23]
Win what are you doing to our beloved mountain? I can't ski mid-week regularly for another 3 seasons!


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## tumbler (Feb 27, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> yeah, you'll probably end up with the crowd inversion factor on Holiday Weekends like the big places out west.  Some relatives that go to Stratton report the same.  The random saturday in january after a good snow week is busier than mlk sat.



SB was like that President's Day weekend, empty on blackout Sat & Sun.


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply I didn’t feel like typing.
> 
> Honestly was a bit surprised at the tone of win’s response. I don’t think my comment was rude or unreasonable, and I do think my comment holds a lot of truth. And I love sugarbush, ski there regularly, but it’s an issue when my SO comes along for the weekend. And even if we base at Mount Ellen, the girlfriend skis for 2 hours max and then is a fixture in the lodge til I’m done, and mount Ellen isn’t a comfortable place for her to hang due to the crowded old lodge full of racer kids. I know that part is being fixed with the lodge upgrade




Sorry if it came across that way. It was not meant to. It is a fact that as a percentage we have less beginner terrain than many, but many beginners can progress here despite that. As someone who began late in life it took me awhile to realize I needed some coaching from a pro rather than trying to do it all alone.


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not surprised by unlimited on full and definitely expected that. I am surprised by unlimited (with blackouts) on base though. That's the part that concerns me a bit more...we'll see what happens.



Most Ikon do not use their full 5 or 7 days other than when it is their home mountain, so I am not concerned about going to unlimited. Obviously, we will see. As all of you know, when we are 100% open with 16 lifts running and good wood skiing, you all know where to go. The Holidays will be busy when there are good conditions and the beginner and intermediate trails will be the busiest.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

One of my best friends (in her late 30's) started skiing two years ago. She did the learn-to-ski package at Sugarbush (and got her free pair of skis, which was awesome). She found Mascara Mountain challenging, partially because of the limited amount of green terrain, and partially because of all the people apparently passing her within inches (someone actually hit her this past weekend on Birch and didn't even stop / in any way acknowledge what had happened). So, we spent a good deal of last year and the earlier part of this year at Ellen, with some side trips to Bolton (which she loves) on holiday weekends. She's practiced a lot and has now come pack to LP, doing all the fun blues (Jester, Spring Fling, Birch) and even a (groomed) black or two. To summarize her experience, LP is *not* easiest mountain to learn at, and if it was the only option, I don't know how far this little experiment would have gone. But the learn to ski program really helped (with the exception of one really awful instructor), as did Mt Ellen.


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> Most Ikon do not use their full 5 or 7 days other than when it is their home mountain, so I am not concerned about going to unlimited. Obviously, we will see. As all of you know, when we are 100% open with 16 lifts running and good wood skiing, you all know where to go. The Holidays will be busy when there are good conditions and the beginner and intermediate trails will be the busiest.



Can't say whether I speak for anyone else that is concerned, but at least from my perspective I'm wondering if MORE people will choose Ikon in general because SB is unlimited even on base. I'm less concerned about increased usage from existing Ikon holders that weren't using all their days anyway. A $700 "unlimited" SB pass could be a big draw for additional Ikon base users.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

Also, I've been doing an informal little survey on lift rides this season about where people are visiting from and if they are using the Ikon pass etc. I had a chat with someone going up Castlerock chair last weekend that kinda summed up the positive side of all of this (and was representative of a lot of people I talked to). It was a guy who used to ski a lot years ago but then had given it up for a while. But last year he was living in Denver for a while and had an Epic pass, and this year he was doing Ikon. He'd done a seasonal rental of skis for the first time, was really seeing his skiing improve, and was really enjoying the ability to explore around at different places, which being on Ikon or Epic really helped. It was his second ride up Castlerock ever, on his third visit to SB. I'm as anxious about crowding as anyone else (actually, no I'm not. With the money I'm saving from old SB season passes I can just go to Bolton or the Snowbowl or bc off the Lincoln Gap on the really crowded days), but if this guy and the many others I've talked to are not the kind of person you would want to see growing the skier base, I don't who is.


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## Greg (Feb 27, 2020)

Win - is the Quad Pack still going to be offered next year?


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Can't say whether I speak for anyone else that is concerned, but at least from my perspective I'm wondering if MORE people will choose Ikon in general because SB is unlimited even on base. I'm less concerned about increased usage from existing Ikon holders that weren't using all their days anyway. A $700 "unlimited" SB pass could be a big draw for additional Ikon base users.



The $700 has the blackout days.  It's $899 as a refresh price on a full pass.
https://www.ikonpass.com/en/shop-passes


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## 1dog (Feb 27, 2020)

Last two weekends - holiday bookends - were not even as bad a regular Saturdays.

'Win' isn't doing anything. . . . .  its free markets and capital. We will see some of it as good - a new mid mountain lodge and more snow making, maybe lift upgrades or even new ones. We will see some of it as terrible - NIMBY - because we already passed the beginner stage - to Kustys point - but change is inevitable. And mostly good. 

In his waning days of CEO he's gonna expand the shareholders value as much as possible. Isn't all except the top 1000' not NF and privately owned so expansion of trails shouldn't be the regulatory issue it is with the feds? 

Crowds - well they haven't been a huge issue except Saturday Sunday mornings - and now they may be more consistent. 

But we also have chances to spend time at other areas 'free'. A basin if you like steeps and trees, Buttermilk if you like to cruise ( Ikon includes free flights and accommodations similar to what we have in MRV - cause we deserve it - we're Americans) and a boatload of other areas - heck, dollar stays strong I might consider a romantic weekend in Tremblant with my 4-6 day a year skier wife ( my other one pounds Liftline 6 x a day)


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

Greg said:


> Win - is the Quad Pack still going to be offered next year?


 

Most likely.


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## 1dog (Feb 27, 2020)

Consider we paid $1100-$1400 for a season pass back in the 90's I think? 

I'm done with it all now, but one main reason I was a regular here was kids under 6 free and under 13 free w season pass - all thats gone now I think. . . . . .  and Blazer program is not cheap - and my youngest - only one of 5 to use it - loves it.

Change.

Try stopping it.


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## MorningWoods (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> Correct but feasible.



If it goes way out. Would nice to have a connector to the village run trail that removes that ridiculous flat out before the turn. 




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## Whitey (Feb 27, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ^this. my girlfriend is a true beginner and not very likely to ever progress to intermediate. the one time she skied at Lincoln peak she experienced icy pushover, with zipping park kids, and she fell a few times and she yelled and cursed at me, and now she won’t ski at Lincoln Peak. There really is nothing there for the beginner who has progressed just a little past the bunny slopes.



I think we are all missing the real controversy here.    That Kusty would date someone who is a beginner skier.    I would have assumed that "can ski" would have been qualification # 2 on Kusty's new girlfriend checklist.    Right behind qualification #1;  "has a vagina and a pulse"


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## TSQURD (Feb 27, 2020)

Win - What are the chances current Sugarbush pass holders would be able get the IKON renewal discount since we are new to their ecosystem?


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Win - What are the chances current Sugarbush pass holders would be able get the IKON renewal discount since we are new to their ecosystem?



I second this question! I actually think it would be a really nice gesture, especially for those of us who are losing the For30's pass.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

Win the FAQ site might need a little, um, polishing. : https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/season-passes/pass-options-faqs/

"Q: I’m in my thirty’s and I don’t see a For30’s pass, what pass is best for me?

A: Product went away. They will need to buy Ikon or Ikon Base. Need to say this delicately, more options and value for them to travel and explore with Ikon."


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Win the FAQ site might need a little, um, polishing. : https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/season-passes/pass-options-faqs/
> 
> "Q: I’m in my thirty’s and I don’t see a For30’s pass, what pass is best for me?
> 
> A: Product went away. *They will need to buy Ikon or Ikon Base.** Need to say this delicately*, more options and value for them to travel and explore with Ikon."



OMG that's hysterical.   When the rough draft gets posted online without the "spin" first removed. LOL


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2020)

Whitey said:


> I think we are all missing the real controversy here.    That Kusty would date someone who is a beginner skier.    I would have assumed that "can ski" would have been qualification # 2 on Kusty's new girlfriend checklist.    Right behind qualification #1;  "has a vagina and a pulse"



In the nyc dating market I’d be quite single.

My only qualification is “can handle the fact that I ski every weekend and work vacation”

That she used to be an avid surfer who would travel to places like Hawaii and the Philippines to surf helps, since she “gets it”


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

Another oopsie:

Q:_ Is Sugarbush still part of the Mountain Collective?_

A: _Yes. (*discuss the product* *not the 50% off benefit*)_


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> OMG that's hysterical.   When the rough draft gets posted online without the "spin" first removed. LOL



I do sort of appreciate the, um, honesty though the way it is.


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The $700 has the blackout days.  It's $899 as a refresh price on a full pass.
> https://www.ikonpass.com/en/shop-passes



I know. Hence the reason I had "unlimited" in quotes. There's a lot of people that stay away holidays to begin with, so a relatively cheap pass that gives you access all other times I think will attract new people (potentially even people that previously were Epic local holders)


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> OMG that's hysterical.   When the rough draft gets posted online without the "spin" first removed. LOL



That really is hilarious. The entire FAQ looks a bit "rough" from a grammar perspective, never mind the internal notes about how to spin things not being removed.


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Win - What are the chances current Sugarbush pass holders would be able get the IKON renewal discount since we are new to their ecosystem?


Very good. Details ate forthcoming.


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## TSQURD (Feb 27, 2020)

Awesome!  Thanks Win.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> If you think people bomb down Pushover then you have never really experienced Northstar.  Taking the features off Slow Poke would help as that is a good trail to build confidence on the pitch at the end.  But I'm sure they don't want to have all the features at Mt Ellen (I'm good with it though...).  Look at the crowds at Gatehouse lift on the weekends, huge amount of beginners and low intermediates that want to ski over there.  Up the capacity of GH to a 6, build the lodge at the top of GH and cut a work road trail like Jester skiers left of Sunrise so people can spread out.



I completely agree with this plan. Along with the lodge at the Lincoln side of the mountain, I could see a small lodge going at the bottom of North Ridge. Skiers coming either way on Slide Brook could have a lodge to go to on either side. It would form a “hub” of sorts. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not surprised by unlimited on full and definitely expected that. I am surprised by unlimited (with blackouts) on base though. That's the part that concerns me a bit more...we'll see what happens.



I don't get to Sugarbush very often, so it isn't gonna affect me that much, but I feel for you regulars.


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## djd66 (Feb 27, 2020)

The way I look at the new pass is more positives than negatives. 

Yeah, it’s possible some weekends will be more crowded.  But now I can take my family out west for ZERO cost in lift tickets. That’s a huge savings and a huge benefit (for me and my wallet)

As far as the mountain infrastructure, they need more lodge space on both North and South.  Gatehouse lodge could have been double the size. I’d be happy if they added more trails and I’d also be happy if they increased snowmaking capacity.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The way I look at the new pass is more positives than negatives.
> 
> Yeah, it’s possible some weekends will be more crowded.  But now I can take my family out west for ZERO cost in lift tickets. That’s a huge savings and a huge benefit (for me and my wallet)
> 
> As far as the mountain infrastructure, they need more lodge space on both North and South.  Gatehouse lodge could have been double the size. I’d be happy if they added more trails and I’d also be happy if they increased snowmaking capacity.



I totally agree. Paying less and getting all of those added destinations is a HUGE bonus, but as many have mentioned crowds will be an issue. In my opinion, there are 3 key steps that need to be taken to help with the added skier visits: 
1. New Ellen lodge - the current one is just far too small and outdated to handle the added traffic. The amenities should be as similar to possible to Lincoln to make sure that people don’t feel like they’re making a compromise by not starting at Lincoln

2. New Gate House lift - with it being the most popular lift on the mountain and it having such a crucial role, Gate House needs to be upgraded. 1,900 p/h at 800 ft/min just isn’t enough. 

3. Reliable connection restored between the two sides of the mountain. Whatever can be done to ensure Slide Brook can run for most of the season needs to be done. Crowds need to be spread out across the whole resort. With some marketing of the connection and ability to ski both sides in one day, skiers should be spread out much more and crowds should be relieved. 

Along with these upgrades it will be nice to see snowmaking improvements and a new/expanded mid mountain lodge at both sides. New trails would be nice, but I don’t see it to be that likely to happen. 


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## djd66 (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I totally agree. Paying less and getting all of those added destinations is a HUGE bonus, but as many have mentioned crowds will be an issue. In my opinion, there are 3 key steps that need to be taken to help with the added skier visits:
> 1. New Ellen lodge - the current one is just far too small and outdated to handle the added traffic. The amenities should be as similar to possible to Lincoln to make sure that people don’t feel like they’re making a compromise by not starting at Lincoln
> 
> 2. New Gate House lift - with it being the most popular lift on the mountain and it having such a crucial role, Gate House needs to be upgraded. 1,900 p/h at 800 ft/min just isn’t enough.
> ...



All great ideas,...  I am not sure they will ever be able to fix the slidebrook lift issue.  Personally I would love it if they had a few gondolas, but I think this was shot down by the locals long time ago.  

What it will come down to for all improvements is money.  If it does not make financial sense, I doubt these things will get done.  It’s a business after all.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

A lot can be done with Slide Brook but it just hasn’t been done. In its current state it’s a mess with a bunch of deep water bars that make it difficult to evacuate. The lift line could be cleared with new water management systems as well as widened evac access roads. Is it cheap? No. But this along with a refurbishment of the lift could bring back the connection they need. Very few skiers actually bother riding the bus so in order to consider it one ski area it needs to run. By marketing the idea of it being one connected resort (which Alterra and Ikon have been doing) skiers can be spread out much better. 


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## Molsonatslu (Feb 27, 2020)

Any chance the blackout dates on the base pass only are applicable at LP and you can still ski ME on those dates?  Locals would greatly appreciate this. 


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> A lot can be done with Slide Brook but it just hasn’t been done. In its current state it’s a mess with a bunch of deep water bars that make it difficult to evacuate. The lift line could be cleared with new water management systems as well as widened evac access roads. Is it cheap? No. But this along with a refurbishment of the lift could bring back the connection they need. Very few skiers actually bother riding the bus so in order to consider it one ski area it needs to run. By marketing the idea of it being one connected resort (which Alterra and Ikon have been doing) skiers can be spread out much better.



Where do you get your stats that "very few skiers actually ride the bus"?

Also, forget about cost...what makes you think you would ever get approval to do ANYTHING in Slide Brook?


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## MorningWoods (Feb 27, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The way I look at the new pass is more positives than negatives.
> 
> Yeah, it’s possible some weekends will be more crowded.  But now I can take my family out west for ZERO cost in lift tickets. That’s a huge savings and a huge benefit (for me and my wallet)
> 
> As far as the mountain infrastructure, they need more lodge space on both North and South.  Gatehouse lodge could have been double the size. I’d be happy if they added more trails and I’d also be happy if they increased snowmaking capacity.



Yeah. After spending a week elsewhere. I really appreciated not having to circle tables in the lodge like a great white circling a seal off Monomoy. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Where do you get your stats that "very few skiers actually ride the bus"?
> 
> Also, forget about cost...what makes you think you would ever get approval to do ANYTHING in Slide Brook?



I have been on that bus with more than 4 people other than when Lincoln got shut down because of wind last New Year’s Day. Nobody wants to bother riding the bus because it’s just not convenient. Most of the people I talk to on the lift say they only go to Ellen when Slide Brook runs. If Alterra was serious about this project (and they seem like they actually care about Slide Brook), they could find a way to permit it without disturbing the Bear habitat. The liftline and lift have already been built so they don’t have that to worry about. 


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 27, 2020)

You don't ski the same Slidebrook as I do.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I have been on that bus with more than 4 people other than when Lincoln got shut down because of wind last New Year’s Day. Nobody wants to bother riding the bus because it’s just not convenient. Most of the people I talk to on the lift say they only go to Ellen when Slide Brook runs. If Alterra was serious about this project (and they seem like they actually care about Slide Brook), they could find a way to permit it without disturbing the Bear habitat. The liftline and lift have already been built so they don’t have that to worry about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Correction - I have never been on the bus with more than 4 people except for New Years. Oops... 


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> A lot can be done with Slide Brook but it just hasn’t been done. In its current state it’s a mess with a bunch of deep water bars that make it difficult to evacuate. The lift line could be cleared with new water management systems as well as widened evac access roads. Is it cheap? No. But this along with a refurbishment of the lift could bring back the connection they need. Very few skiers actually bother riding the bus so in order to consider it one ski area it needs to run. By marketing the idea of it being one connected resort (which Alterra and Ikon have been doing) skiers can be spread out much better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You really need to get over this.  Alterra won't be doing any of that anytime soon.  It's so far down on the capital improvement priority list for them with so little ROI, you're best to let that dream go.  There are people in this thread with decades of SB experience.  No one is seeing Slidebrook improvements as a priority.  

Most importantly, little chance they get permits as cd points out

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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Correction - I have never been on the bus with more than 4 people except for New Years. Oops...



Doesn't match any of my experiences riding the bus...(or the number of people I see getting off the bus when I'm at either GMX or walking back to my car in the LP parking lot)


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You really need to get over this.  Alterra won't be doing any of that anytime soon.  It's so far down on the capital improvement priority list for them with so little ROI, you're best to let that dream go.  There are people in this thread with decades of SB experience.  No one is seeing Slidebrook improvements as a priority.
> 
> Most importantly, little chance they get permits as cd points out
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Why should I “get over this” when it is a crucial part of Sugarbush. Both sides being connected doubles the amount of terrain and vastly improves skier distribution and guest satisfaction. In fact I know people that will not come to Sugarbush unless it is running as they don’t want to be stuck at only one side for the whole day. With some upgrades Sugarbush can be brought to how it used to be, one connected resort. Why do you think Alterra doesn’t see it as a priority. On both their Ikon and Alterra website descriptions of Sugarbush they mention “two mountains connected by a high speed quad”. When the manager of the Ikon Instagram visited recently they posted on their story promoting Slide Brook and skiing both sides of the mountain. With more and more skier visits, it’s in their best interest to spread out crowds. Whenever Slide Brook is open I am always going to ski all of Sugarbush and not just one side. Why pick one side when you can ski both! 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 27, 2020)

Squaw Alpine is a good example of their desire to have connected resorts. Currently a bus services the two, but they are spending $10,000,000+ on a new gondola to connect them. Not saying they should spend $10,000,000 on Slide Brook, but it gives you an  idea of their priorities. 


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Why should I “get over this” when it is a crucial part of Sugarbush. Both sides being connected doubles the amount of terrain and vastly improves skier distribution and guest satisfaction. In fact I know people that will not come to Sugarbush unless it is running as they don’t want to be stuck at only one side for the whole day. With some upgrades Sugarbush can be brought to how it used to be, one connected resort. Why do you think Alterra doesn’t see it as a priority. On both their Ikon and Alterra website descriptions of Sugarbush they mention “two mountains connected by a high speed quad”. When the manager of the Ikon Instagram visited recently they posted on their story promoting Slide Brook and skiing both sides of the mountain. With more and more skier visits, it’s in their best interest to spread out crowds. Whenever Slide Brook is open I am always going to ski all of Sugarbush and not just one side. Why pick one side when you can ski both!



It really doesn't "double" the amount of terrain first of all. Secondly, it is NOT a crucial part of Sugarbush. Alterra doesn't see it as a priority because they already stated what their priorities were during the town hall back after the acquisition was announced (lifts were not in the top 3 at all).

I'd also argue that the Slide Brook chair is only faster going from ME to LP. From LP to ME it is really not faster than the bus. From ME, Slide Brook is easily accessible from the vast majority of terrain. From LP, from most terrain you're going to have to take the GH lift first. On a crowded day that easily adds 10-15 minutes to the time required to get from LP to ME via Slide Brook.

And finally, even in years where Slide Brook runs nearly every day that ME is open it still doesn't result in driving much more traffic to ME. There are a lot of other factors in why a lot of people choose to stay at LP instead of going over to ME.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 27, 2020)

Is there an "Ignore User" function on this site?

Edit:  There is!!!  No more reading posts by people with serious Dunning-Kruger effect.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Why should I “get over this” when it is a crucial part of Sugarbush. Both sides being connected doubles the amount of terrain and vastly improves skier distribution and guest satisfaction. In fact I know people that will not come to Sugarbush unless it is running as they don’t want to be stuck at only one side for the whole day. With some upgrades Sugarbush can be brought to how it used to be, one connected resort. Why do you think Alterra doesn’t see it as a priority. On both their Ikon and Alterra website descriptions of Sugarbush they mention “two mountains connected by a high speed quad”. When the manager of the Ikon Instagram visited recently they posted on their story promoting Slide Brook and skiing both sides of the mountain. With more and more skier visits, it’s in their best interest to spread out crowds. Whenever Slide Brook is open I am always going to ski all of Sugarbush and not just one side. Why pick one side when you can ski both!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need to get over SB upgrades for the exact reasons everyone is telling you.  

It's LOW on the list of importance for customer experience and potential ROI.  

More snowmaking capacity, more lodge space with year round potential uses, planning for Heaven's Gate eventual replacement as well as other lifts are all significantly more important. 

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## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2020)

Isn’t sb87 a teenager? You’re all arguing with someone who’s brain is not fully developed yet. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

All I’m saying is that Alterra clearly sees the value in connector lifts. If they’re spending 10+ million on a new gondola to connect Squaw and Alpine Meadows, they’re not going to merely accept the fact that one of Sugarbush’s assets is a lift that in this year’s case, didn’t start running until the 3rd month of the ski season and sits for the rest of the year. With warmer and warmer winters, it’s not logical to have a lift depend on so much snow. I have seen a fair share of reviews regarding the fact that people wished they could ski both sides, but Slide Brook was closed so they only stuck to one and as I mentioned, in its current state, yes, Slide Brook is a mess, but it could be improved and a reliable connection could be restored. Alterra is not going to want to force people on to a state-run public bus service in order to ski both sides. For most people that’s too much of a disruption so they’ll just stay at that side. When I skied at Sugarbush for the first time, I was intrigued by the fact that there were two large mountains with plenty of terrain, but without the vibe of a place like Mt. Snow. I went in without any idea that Slide Brook rarely ran and was very disappointed to see that I couldn’t get to the other side. I went to guest services to ask about a bus and they sent me down to the stop in front of Clay Brook and rode it over to Ellen. It was deserted over there and decently crowded at Lincoln. This along with the lack of snow left a bad taste in my mouth until I came back in March and it was Sugarbush how it should be: plenty of snow with two connected sides. 


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Isn’t sb87 a teenager? You’re all arguing with someone who’s brain is not fully developed yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not sure about that  
You never know  who’s behind  the screen 
A teenager would be talking park and stuff must be a nerd 


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> Not sure about that
> You never know  who’s behind  the screen
> A teenager would be talking park and stuff must be a nerd
> 
> ...



Not all teens are park rats... 


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## MorningWoods (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Not all teens are park rats...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I actually agree with some of what you are saying. And with more skier visits it would be better if slide Brook ran more often, I for one think the bus is a PIA. But the lodge situation is a priority. As is snowmaking. So those will likely be addressed first if you believe anything they have said to date. Of course if ikon really drives significant overcrowding priorities can change. I’m not sure that will happen though. 


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## tumbler (Feb 28, 2020)

Look, we get your love for the Slide Brook lift.  On a tolerable day it is a fun ride. NOTHING is going to happen in the basin PERIOD.  You have no idea of the history of the permitting and the opposition.  The lift was the compromise and that's all that can happen.  I have seen the old plans 25-30 years ago with 4-6 lift pods running along the ridge and another base area off German Flats and it would have been sweet to ski.  The valley would have been changed into Killington though.


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## djd66 (Feb 28, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> Not sure about that
> You never know  who’s behind  the screen
> A teenager would be talking park and stuff must be a nerd
> 
> ...



Because he has an opinion and is young he is a “nerd”? Weather you agree with him or not,  If SB87 is in fact only 13 YO (and I have no reason the believe he is not) I find his knowledge pretty impressive.


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## Hawk (Feb 28, 2020)

Yes he is 14.  Someone I know confirmed it that knows him.  He does a lot of reading and does know a lot about lifts and other SB things.  What he lacks is the understanding of how to interact on this forum.  I have and will cut him some slack because he has not learned that yet and I have to say, I have been obnoxious in the past myself.  One thing for sure is his love of that blasted lift is not shared by many of us.    I have to go now and ski the pow.  Top lot is more than half full at 8:30.  lots of thirsty pow hounds.  Not feeling good with the amount of wind though but VH, Bravo and Gatehouse are turning at this point.


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## MorningWoods (Feb 28, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Because he has an opinion and is young he is a “nerd”? Weather you agree with him or not,  If SB87 is in fact only 13 YO (and I have no reason the believe he is not) I find his knowledge pretty impressive.



I know right.  Sad to see this. Let’s pick on the kid behind anonymous screen names? He’s never once got personal and that stupid poem was written by a made up handle if you actually read it. Yet he remains above board. Good for you teddy, some these guys can learn something from you. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Isn’t sb87 a teenager? You’re all arguing with someone who’s brain is not fully developed yet.



It's so funny they keep arguing with a 13 year old who believes he knows everything. 

Win has stated multiple times, that Slidebrook runs EVERY DAY that it is possible to run it. Should be the end of the discussion right there.


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## ktrerotola (Feb 28, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> OMG that's hysterical.   When the rough draft gets posted online without the "spin" first removed. LOL



Ouch. Super bummed the For30s went away, it was actually a key factor in choosing Sugarbush for a group house years back. Was hoping to get this cheaper option for a few more years. 

To add insult to injury, Jackson Hole add on to Ikon is $150 - we have family there (lucky I know) so that’s where we are planning to use IKON next year. The $100 for SB pass holders almost offsets this, but my pass price has nearly doubled for next year, from the ~$539 rate I paid early For30s.


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## folledeski (Feb 28, 2020)

You are way more obnoxious than slidebrook is, Hawk.  Many of you may not agree with his opinions but he presents them logically and respectfully.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 28, 2020)

ktrerotola said:


> To add insult to injury, Jackson Hole add on to Ikon is $150 - we have family there (lucky I know) so that’s where we are planning to use IKON next year.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



An online day ticket to JH for today, is $99.   ski 2 days and you are making out with that $150 "upgrade".


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## tumbler (Feb 28, 2020)

upper mtn wind holds keeping it fresh for tomorrow.  looks like bravo running slow for wind


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook is at least advocating for improvements and doing so with reasoned arguments. That's a good thing, whether you agree with him or not.


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## Zermatt (Feb 28, 2020)

Lifts in Europe traverse crevasse covered glaciers and 1,000' cliffs, there doesn't appear to be a requirement that people have to be lowered down to terrain they can ski out from in an emergency.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 28, 2020)

billo said:


> Lifts in Europe traverse crevasse covered glaciers and 1,000' cliffs, there doesn't appear to be a requirement that people have to be lowered down to terrain they can ski out from in an emergency.



That may be so but last I checked Europe wasn't under the jurisdiction of the State of Vermont.


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## Hawk (Feb 28, 2020)

folledeski said:


> You are way more obnoxious than slidebrook is, Hawk.  Many of you may not agree with his opinions but he presents them logically and respectfully.



Fair enough.  I can understand that but you also forgot to add persistently.  He is like a dog on a bone.  And many if not most disagree with a lot of his opinions.  So the debate is fine i guess.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

So...... How could North Ridge and Summit be running with no way of getting to them today? 


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Hawk, how was it out there today?

I'm standing down on this weekend due to a fresh cold. Killing me to do so.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 28, 2020)

No offense slidebrook  nothing wrong with being a nerd   Seriously 
We need people like you 
I prefer them to park rats 
Have a great weekend 




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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> No offense slidebrook  nothing wrong with being a nerd   Seriously
> We need people like you
> I prefer them to park rats
> Have a great weekend
> ...



I wouldn’t really consider myself a nerd but thanks for the comment nonetheless. Have a good weekend too. 


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## Griswold (Feb 28, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yes he is 14.  Someone I know confirmed it that knows him.  He does a lot of reading and does know a lot about lifts and other SB things.  What he lacks is the understanding of how to interact on this forum.  I have and will cut him some slack because he has not learned that yet and I have to say, I have been obnoxious in the past myself.  One thing for sure is his love of that blasted lift is not shared by many of us.    I have to go now and ski the pow.  Top lot is more than half full at 8:30.  lots of thirsty pow hounds.  Not feeling good with the amount of wind though but VH, Bravo and Gatehouse are turning at this point.



The first two sentences of this are creepy as hell and the fourth is laughable.  In the last week or so I’ve seen you publicly name a teenager who is posting all your secret stashes and somehow confirm a 14 year old’s age and announce it.  He’s the one who needs the lesson on how to interact on here?


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yes he is 14.  Someone I know confirmed it that knows him.  He does a lot of reading and does know a lot about lifts and other SB things.  What he lacks is the understanding of how to interact on this forum.  I have and will cut him some slack because he has not learned that yet and I have to say, I have been obnoxious in the past myself.  One thing for sure is his love of that blasted lift is not shared by many of us.    I have to go now and ski the pow.  Top lot is more than half full at 8:30.  lots of thirsty pow hounds.  Not feeling good with the amount of wind though but VH, Bravo and Gatehouse are turning at this point.



Hawk, who exactly told you my personal information and why do you feel the need to share it on this thread. I turned 14 about a week ago so I find it a little bit scary that you know how old I am... 


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I have been on that bus with more than 4 people other than when Lincoln got shut down because of wind last New Year’s Day. Nobody wants to bother riding the bus because it’s just not convenient. Most of the people I talk to on the lift say they only go to Ellen when Slide Brook runs. If Alterra was serious about this project (and they seem like they actually care about Slide Brook), they could find a way to permit it without disturbing the Bear habitat. The liftline and lift have already been built so they don’t have that to worry about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't want to turn this thread in again concerning improvements that Alterra should make.  And this is probably the last thing they would do but I agree with slidebrook87 to some extent.  Without Slidebrook running it really skis like two mtns.  Every weekend LP is packed and Ellen is empty.  When Slide brook is running, its a lot faster than taking the shuttle.  First off you have to time the shuttle just right down near Claybrook and not stop at any of the stops between ellen and LP.  Then it is about the same time.  Also most of the winter Slidebrook is either too cold to run or frankly it's just too cold to ride.  I don't know the weight capacity of lifts but why couldn't they take the chairs down and replace them with 1/3 gondola cabins.  I don't know if the cable can take the weight but I you would bet you would get more people bouncing between mtns thus reducing some of the traffic at LP.


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## TSQURD (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Hawk, who exactly told you my personal information and why do you feel the need to share it on this thread. I turned 14 about a week ago so I find it a little bit scary that you know how old I am...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You outed yourself a few weeks ago, just saying...



Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve never really introduced myself on this forum so I might as well do it now. My name’s Teddy and I’ll be turning 14 in 2 weeks.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WWF-VT (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So...... How could North Ridge and Summit be running with no way of getting to them today?



Take the Sunshine Quad and then head up Crackerjack to the North Ridge


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> You outed yourself a few weeks ago, just saying...



Yes, but the fact that he got information from “people that know me” then shares it on this thread is what’s concerning to me. Other than Egan and Win, I really don’t know too many people at Sugarbush... 


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## machski (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> A lot can be done with Slide Brook but it just hasn’t been done. In its current state it’s a mess with a bunch of deep water bars that make it difficult to evacuate. The lift line could be cleared with new water management systems as well as widened evac access roads. Is it cheap? No. But this along with a refurbishment of the lift could bring back the connection they need. Very few skiers actually bother riding the bus so in order to consider it one ski area it needs to run. By marketing the idea of it being one connected resort (which Alterra and Ikon have been doing) skiers can be spread out much better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Slidebrook, you need to go dig up articles and do some history research on what it took LBO to get Slidebrook Express installed in the first place.  The minimally cleared line was part of the restrictions/compromise to getting it in at all, and things haven't gotten any easier since to work in Slidebrook.  Face it, what is there is staying for quite a while.  Even when it mechanically needs replacement, I wouldn't bet for much more (maybe a bubble quad) but that is years if not decades down the road.  What is there now works fine, may not be a perfect fit for all, but it is better than nothing.

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## Hawk (Feb 28, 2020)

Griswold said:


> The first two sentences of this are creepy as hell and the fourth is laughable.  In the last week or so I’ve seen you publicly name a teenager who is posting all your secret stashes and somehow confirm a 14 year old’s age and announce it.  He’s the one who needs the lesson on how to interact on here?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Thanks Griswold.  I appreciate the feedback.


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## Hawk (Feb 28, 2020)

Orca said:


> Hawk, how was it out there today?
> 
> I'm standing down on this weekend due to a fresh cold. Killing me to do so.


Actually really good.  The higher up the better but you had to figure out where the snow blew to get the deeper shots.  Too bad North Linx shut down by about 10:15.  North stayed open mostly.  I heard the 3 sisters was pertty good.  Never made it over there.  Killed too much time with a hike or two.


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## machski (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> All I’m saying is that Alterra clearly sees the value in connector lifts. If they’re spending 10+ million on a new gondola to connect Squaw and Alpine Meadows, they’re not going to merely accept the fact that one of Sugarbush’s assets is a lift that in this year’s case, didn’t start running until the 3rd month of the ski season and sits for the rest of the year. With warmer and warmer winters, it’s not logical to have a lift depend on so much snow. I have seen a fair share of reviews regarding the fact that people wished they could ski both sides, but Slide Brook was closed so they only stuck to one and as I mentioned, in its current state, yes, Slide Brook is a mess, but it could be improved and a reliable connection could be restored. Alterra is not going to want to force people on to a state-run public bus service in order to ski both sides. For most people that’s too much of a disruption so they’ll just stay at that side. When I skied at Sugarbush for the first time, I was intrigued by the fact that there were two large mountains with plenty of terrain, but without the vibe of a place like Mt. Snow. I went in without any idea that Slide Brook rarely ran and was very disappointed to see that I couldn’t get to the other side. I went to guest services to ask about a bus and they sent me down to the stop in front of Clay Brook and rode it over to Ellen. It was deserted over there and decently crowded at Lincoln. This along with the lack of snow left a bad taste in my mouth until I came back in March and it was Sugarbush how it should be: plenty of snow with two connected sides.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do recall the connecting Gondola at Squaw/Alpine had been a battle going on far longer than Alterra has even existed.  Squaw and Alpine have been co-owned for quite some and connecting these two "resorts" with a lift is huge, given it can take upwards of an hour to drive between the two.  It also took three different alignments for the Gondola before one was accepted, even them with a ton of opposition against any of them.

I appreciate your passion for lift improvements and upgrades Slidebrook, I have similar desires at Sunday River (let's see, a Barker "HSQ" that currently runs slower than the new racing T-Bar for starters) but understand it's a business and they need to prioritize Capital dollars in what is a marginal return business.  Sugarbush is a resort at South, and a ski area at North.  The Dynamics of connecting the two have different financial driver's than Squaw/Alpine.

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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2020)

machski said:


> Sugarbush is a resort at South, and a ski area at North.



And this is a a major reason why no matter what type of lift is between lp and me or how often it runs you will still see a ton of people stay at south.

There really is very limited roi doing anything more with that lift at this point.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> And this is a a major reason why no matter what type of lift is between lp and me or how often it runs you will still see a ton of people stay at south.
> 
> There really is very limited roi doing anything more with that lift at this point.
> 
> ...



And the reason behind this is because EVERYTHING has been developed at Lincoln and not Ellen. With upgraded base facilities at Ellen, there may be an increase of people beginning there. Simple things like Ellen only having 1 webcam are an example of the lack of investment for that side. A new lodge over there would vastly improve the experience. 


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Hawk, who exactly told you my personal information and why do you feel the need to share it on this thread. I turned 14 about a week ago so I find it a little bit scary that you know how old I am...



Teddy, *you* told _*everyone*_ your personal information in your post about two weeks ago (Feb 10, 2020, 7:55 PM):



Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve never really introduced myself on this forum so I might as well do it now. My name’s Teddy and I’ll be turning 14 in 2 weeks. I started skiing at the age of 5, and skied about 5-10 days per year until the 2017/18 season. I started skiing a lot more than I used to at that time and made my first trip to Sugarbush for my birthday. It had always been on my bucket list and the sheer size and varied terrain is what originally drew me to it. Now I ski there quite a bit and have a condo. ....



_EDIT: Didn't notice that this point had been made previously._


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes, but the fact that he got information from “people that know me” then shares it on this thread is what’s concerning to me. Other than Egan and Win, I really don’t know too many people at Sugarbush...



Good gracious! Hawk is probably stalking "NE Chairlifts & Skiing" and MilanYVR too! Best lay low for a bit.


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Actually really good.  The higher up the better but you had to figure out where the snow blew to get the deeper shots.  Too bad North Linx shut down by about 10:15.  North stayed open mostly.  I heard the 3 sisters was pertty good.  Never made it over there.  Killed too much time with a hike or two.



Glad to hear it. I hope the rest of the weekend is good to you.


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> And the reason behind this is because EVERYTHING has been developed at Lincoln and not Ellen. With upgraded base facilities at Ellen, there may be an increase of people beginning there. Simple things like Ellen only having 1 webcam are an example of the lack of investment for that side. A new lodge over there would vastly improve the experience.



I'm 100% with Teddybrook on this one. Ellen has been neglected.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 28, 2020)

I mean come on, last time I was at Ellen when I went to use the bathroom, one of the toilets was flooding everywhere and it was a mess. It was packed in there with little natural light. I know there are plans for an adaptive sports expansion, but the current adaptive facility is pathetic. Not trying to bash on Sugarbush, but compared to the Gate House Lodge which is one of the best ski lodges I’ve been in, the Ellen lodge is pathetic. While it may be fine midweek, on weekends its flaws are definitely made clear. 

Another side note. When I was skiing with my sister and her boyfriend last weekend he asked the Slide Brook liftie why there was only one RFID gate and he simply replied “they’re too cheap to add more”. Haha. 


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## Orca (Feb 28, 2020)

I can't think of any major improvement that should take precedence over replacing the Ellen lodge.

(Just you watch, SB87, this is when the luddites opine theatrically about the subtle virtues of the lodge and their undying love for it.)


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## djd66 (Feb 28, 2020)

Griswold said:


> The first two sentences of this are creepy as hell and the fourth is laughable.  In the last week or so I’ve seen you publicly name a teenager who is posting all your secret stashes and somehow confirm a 14 year old’s age and announce it.  He’s the one who needs the lesson on how to interact on here?
> '
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Thank you so much for saying exactly what I have been thinking all day.  Really creepy that someone is investigating  the age and background of some kid on a public forum.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> And the reason behind this is because EVERYTHING has been developed at Lincoln and not Ellen. With upgraded base facilities at Ellen, there may be an increase of people beginning there. Simple things like Ellen only having 1 webcam are an example of the lack of investment for that side. A new lodge over there would vastly improve the experience.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Amen.  I love Sugarbush North and miss it.


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2020)

Orca said:


> I can't think of any major improvement that should take precedence over replacing the Ellen lodge.
> 
> (Just you watch, SB87, this is when the luddites opine theatrically about the subtle virtues of the lodge and their undying love for it.)



That depends. If you’re talking about just ME, then I can agree. If you’re talking about SB overall, then I disagree. Increasing snowmaking capacity at LP is at the top of that overall list.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

I’m curious to experience Middle Earth groomed today. Quite a rare sight to see! 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 29, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Hawk, who exactly told you my personal information and why do you feel the need to share it on this thread. I turned 14 about a week ago so I find it a little bit scary that you know how old I am...



Ya posted it on here for the whole world to see ya little brat Teddy! The fuck you accusing him of, when you posted it yourself!?


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Ya posted it on here for the whole world to see ya little brat Teddy! The fuck you accusing him of, when you posted it yourself!?



Yes, but the fact that he talked to someone who knows me after the fact and found out information about me is a bit creepy...


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## djd66 (Feb 29, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Ya posted it on here for the whole world to see ya little brat Teddy! The fuck you accusing him of, when you posted it yourself!?



Dude - he’s 14 years old,... he has been nothing but courteous and respectful on this board.   Calm the fuck down you old man.

I say keep going with you passion Teddy!  Don’t let the old men bother you. You have quite the knowledge and passion for ski lifts,.... you know a lot more than most!

As far as the guy calling you out about your age,... you must have really got in his head - as he was up here for a powder day and made that post just before 8:00AM.  Last thing I’m doing on a powder day is checking in on the AZ forum


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## Newpylong (Feb 29, 2020)

I respect anyone regardless of age who is passionate about the industry and wants to learn more. However in my limited view/observation he throws out far too many operational accusations, statement of opinion as fact, etc.   It comes off as a know it all attitude. Hopefully with age this gets toned down.


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## tumbler (Feb 29, 2020)

Scavenger hunt today. Find the cat...


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

Groomshine!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Thank you so much for saying exactly what I have been thinking all day.  Really creepy that someone is investigating  the age and background of some kid on a public forum.



Read back a few pages. SB87 published his own age and background. It would help to be informed before venturing an opinion accusing someone of being creepy.


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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes, but the fact that he talked to someone who knows me after the fact and found out information about me is a bit creepy...



No, it's not. You both know Win at a minimum. It's a product of normal conversation between people that know each other. I know it's fashionable to try to carve out victim status, but this is a long stretch.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 29, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I respect anyone regardless of age who is passionate about the industry and wants to learn more. However in my limited view/observation he throws out far too many operational accusations, statement of opinion as fact, etc.   It comes off as a know it all attitude. Hopefully with age this gets toned down.



Exactly!


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## cdskier (Feb 29, 2020)

Terrible out here today. Everyone should stay home! 


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## Griswold (Feb 29, 2020)

Orca said:


> Read back a few pages. SB87 published his own age and background. It would help to be informed before venturing an opinion accusing someone of being creepy.



What are you Hawk’s lawyer or something?  The creep factor is that he was discussing and verifying a 14 year olds age with “someone that knows him”.  Unless he lied and just used the info shared in the post then sorry Hawk you’re not a creep, just a liar.   


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 29, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes, but the fact that he talked to someone who knows me after the fact and found out information about me is a bit creepy...



I would want to know if I was wasting my time interacting with someone who can't even legally operate a motor vehicle. Wouldn't it be hilarious if half this forum turned out to be in middle school?

 I have no formed opinion of said poster but he did choose to make his age public, likely a mistake.

But anyone falling for the "u creeps stalking me" line is being willingly gaslit, and it's a cheap play at that.

Anyway at least SB87 is a forum member with good intentions, yeah he screwed up but let's give him a chance to move on.



Griswold said:


> What are you Hawk’s lawyer or something?  The  creep factor is that he was discussing and verifying a 14 year olds age  with “someone that knows him”.  Unless he lied and just used the info  shared in the post then sorry Hawk you’re not a creep, just a liar.



Inaccurate instigation


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## Griswold (Feb 29, 2020)

Oh ya?  What’s inaccurate about it?


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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

Griswold said:


> What are you Hawk’s lawyer or something?  The creep factor is that he was discussing and verifying a 14 year olds age with “someone that knows him”.  Unless he lied and just used the info shared in the post then sorry Hawk you’re not a creep, just a liar.



Lots of elbows in your post. Imagine that Hawk and Win had a chance meeting and conversation, and Teddy came up in the course of it. Maybe Win even brought him up saying Teddy is a nice kid and means well. That is normal, ordinary stuff. But you, you are so certain Hawk is either a creep or a liar. I hope you are as hard on yourself as you are on others.


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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Terrible out here today. Everyone should stay home!



Thanks, CD for posting the pics. Looks awesome out there!


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## djd66 (Feb 29, 2020)

Orca said:


> Read back a few pages. SB87 published his own age and background. It would help to be informed before venturing an opinion accusing someone of being creepy.



Yes, he did announce his age. Then creepy old man went around investigate to confirm his age and made the announcement to this forum.

I honestly have never seen so many whacked out people. Is it that you can post anonymous?

I have said it before and will say it again, this kid is 14 years old,... why do you old men feel the need to pick on him?

Street Skier is calling him a nerd,.... other guys are swearing at him. What is it with you guys? Did you get picked on as a kid and you want to show you inner bully by picking on some kid in an Internet forum???

I have a 14 year old son, I would be pissed off to all hell if someone ever called my kid a nerd.

Seriously guys,... think about what you are saying and who you are saying it to.  Then maybe go look up cyber bullying.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Street Skier is calling him a nerd,....
> 
> I have a 14 year old son, I would be pissed off to all hell if someone ever called my kid a nerd.
> 
> Seriously guys,... think about what you are saying and who you are saying it to.  Then maybe go look up cyber bullying.



I didn't think "nerd" was even on the spectrum of outdated insults nobody cares about. If your 14 yr old isn't called worse than that on a regular basis, well maybe you've done a good job as a parent.

I was on mountain bike forums very similar but more popular than this at age 14 and got my ass handed to me on a regular basis, still kept coming back for more. Some things don't change. But you don't use your age as a shield either... you want to duke it out with a bunch of stressed out, alcoholic, partially insane middle aged boomers already on their 3rd knee -- good luck!


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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Yes, he did announce his age. Then creepy old man went around investigate to confirm his age and made the announcement to this forum.
> 
> I honestly have never seen so many whacked out people. Is it that you can post anonymous?
> 
> ...



Two separable things:
1. Hawk is old creepy man: No evidence to suggest such a thing, just insinuations.
2. SB87 has been treated poorly: Certainly true at least in some posts, but not in others, which pretty much makes him like everyone else on the forum. We all get some unfair and baseless shots leveled at us. For example, Hawk is a recipient of that right now.

I'd argue there is tremendous merit in decorum and restraint. Perhaps we can each challenge ourselves to quietly do better, give each other more of the benefit of the doubt, avoid ad hominem assaults, indulge in less virtue-signaling outrage, and offer fewer sanctimonious censures. Maybe a modicum of politeness could ensue. You know, it is said that rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 29, 2020)

Did seven runs from the cat this am with a core local crew two other guests  who could rip  
 Thanks to our guide Ben and driver Tom cat   basically go any where you want just don’t go near the cat and beat it down the run which is easy 
Did woods and trails ended it with  a run in slide that was truly epic  
I  apologized to sb14 I like him  he’s an intelligent young man  I try to be nice  sometimes it’s hard especially with people who aren’t even regulars  telling me how it is  !!my relationship with weekend  go getters is great I respect there  skiing passion   I’ve givin up being a crusty local   Cant  Win the battle so I just do my thing  I m on here because I like to talk about the mountain I chose as my home    Sorry to offend  anyone.     thanks 
Probably stood right next to me  if you’re out early.  The next Dick that gives me shit I’m going to bitch slap   Oops there’s that old me surfacing  again  


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

Great conditions today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

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## Griswold (Feb 29, 2020)

Orca said:


> Lots of elbows in your post. Imagine that Hawk and Win had a chance meeting and conversation, and Teddy came up in the course of it. Maybe Win even brought him up saying Teddy is a nice kid and means well. That is normal, ordinary stuff. But you, you are so certain Hawk is either a creep or a liar. I hope you are as hard on yourself as you are on others.



This is the only scenario where it’s not a little creepy and weird and if this is the case, would have read much better to have said that instead of the anonymous “someone who knows him”.

Even saying “he reads a lot” seems odd to me given they don’t know each other at all.  I am not going to look back and see if Teddy himself said he reads a lot, but if he didn’t and this is known to Hawk though whatever means he has received his Teddy knowledge through then sorry, it’s creepy.

Hawk has made no attempt to clarify his comment, not that he needs to, but until he does my opinion of the situation will not change.


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## WinS (Feb 29, 2020)

Orca said:


> Lots of elbows in your post. Imagine that Hawk and Win had a chance meeting and conversation, and Teddy came up in the course of it. Maybe Win even brought him up saying Teddy is a nice kid and means well. That is normal, ordinary stuff. But you, you are so certain Hawk is either a creep or a liar. I hope you are as hard on yourself as you are on others.



I really do not want to get into this conversation. But I know both and love the passions they both have in their own way for our Sugarbush. They are both very good people as are all the others I know who contribute to the conversations.As said earlier, when I move onto a third career I too will become an anonymous member of The Sugarbush Thread.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 29, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Great conditions today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh FIS how I miss thee!


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## thebigo (Feb 29, 2020)

We were planning on k spring passes to cover nh april vacation week but looks like ikon covers this april at sb, next year early season at sr, next nh april vacation at sb and next may at k. Need to sell wife on a family vacation at sb, last week of april into may. Seven year old and I will ski, old lady and three year old will swim.

Is there any reason to believe that sb will not be open the last week of april?
Are there any other family activities near sb? Minigolf? Arcade? Bowling? Museum?
What about restaurants? Nothing fancy, local beer, wings, nachos and kids food.


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## tumbler (Feb 29, 2020)

Enough already analyzing this. The kids spends more time at SB than 95% of you so you know nothing. Can we stop with this shit? Skiing great. You losers not here.


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## skiur (Feb 29, 2020)

The creepy thing is that 3 pages later people are still discussing it.  Skiing was great today, people need to grow up and I ain't talking about SB87


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## WWF-VT (Feb 29, 2020)

Did the 8:00 - 3:30 shift today at Lincoln Peak and skiing was fun.  Two early laps off HG including Paradise and still got in the first wave on Castlerock.  Lots of great bumps where you expect them and fun skiing where they weren't including Castlerock Run, Middle Earth, Moonshine and Lower Twist.   Spillsville and Cotillion were peaking today.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 29, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Did the 8:00 - 3:30 shift today at Lincoln Peak and skiing was fun.  Two early laps off HG including Paradise and still got in the first wave on Castlerock.  Lots of great bumps where you expect them and fun skiing where they weren't including Castlerock Run, Middle Earth, Moonshine and Lower Twist.   Spillsville and Cotillion were peaking today.



The only bad runs I did were Sleeper Chutes and Sunrise. Both were extremely icy. Other than that, prime conditions were everywhere. Organgrinder, Spillsville and Spin Out were all great. So glad Brambles wasn’t closed for no reason like it often is. It skied great today. Can GMVS only close it when they’re actually doing racing?? Half the time it is closed even when they’re not racing! 


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 29, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Is there any reason to believe that sb will not be open the last week of april?



Assuming you mean more than a WROD or two, weather could easily kill that.  Always depends upon the year.


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## Orca (Feb 29, 2020)

Griswold said:


> This is the only scenario where it’s not a little creepy and weird and if this is the case, would have read much better to have said that instead of the anonymous “someone who knows him”.
> 
> Even saying “he reads a lot” seems odd to me given they don’t know each other at all.  I am not going to look back and see if Teddy himself said he reads a lot, but if he didn’t and this is known to Hawk though whatever means he has received his Teddy knowledge through then sorry, it’s creepy.
> 
> Hawk has made no attempt to clarify his comment, not that he needs to, but until he does my opinion of the situation will not change.



Jeez, Grizz. Give it up. So certain of yourself on such scant information. Did you read Win's comments? There is nothing to it. Hawk is OK. SB87 is OK. Let it go.


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## Griswold (Feb 29, 2020)

Orca said:


> Jeez, Grizz. Give it up. So certain of yourself on such scant information. Did you read Win's comments? There is nothing to it. Hawk is OK. SB87 is OK. Let it go.



It would have been over after my first post if you didn’t feel the need to stick your nose in it.  Feel free to take your own advice and give it a rest.


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2020)

Haven't read through all 7,000+ posts in this thread but does Sugarbush use alternate facts to define their 4,000 acres of skiable terrain.

I mean that's quite impressive compared to the tiny 2,500 acres of Jackson Hole or the mediocre 3,100 acres at Revelstoke.  Maybe it was the elevation change getting to me, but I could swear a run like Pitch Black at Revy (one cut trail) could easily fit every single cut trail at SB within it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2020)

They include the woods and slide brook basin.


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## Hawk (Mar 1, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Thank you so much for saying exactly what I have been thinking all day.  Really creepy that someone is investigating  the age and background of some kid on a public forum.


Alright you two.  Fine you both don't like me.  I get it.  FYI there was no investigation on Teddy.  I was just told by someone in a conversation about the forum and I thought taht his age might get him some slack.  I will not longer say anything about him so I don't have to be scolded by you two and the forum can go back to normal.  You two feel better now?  Thanks for the misinterpretation.  I know a lot of people around here.  Most really nice.  I hope I never have to meet you to idiots.   BTW thanks Orca


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## Hawk (Mar 1, 2020)

yes skiing yesterday was great.  Probably the best day of the year I would say for me. 7:30 to 3:30 and the first 5 runs were totally un-tracked.  Lines were manageable.  Didn't make it over to Ellen.  Woods were great all day.  Lower down it got a little crusty underneath but it was manageable. 
We saw the cat on moonshine.  That was interesting.  It was gone by the afternoon so they must of figured out the issue. We also saw the High Fives crew loading at 7:15 before the early ups crew.  So cool what they are doing.  If you have some extra cash, that is a worthy cause.


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## Hawk (Mar 1, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Groomshine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Slidebrook, What did you think about that Cat?   Lift ops said the controls malfunctioned but it was gone later so they mush have figured it out.  Imagine what the operator was feeling like when the controls failed?  Pretty scary.


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## WinS (Mar 1, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The only bad runs I did were Sleeper Chutes and Sunrise. Both were extremely icy. Other than that, prime conditions were everywhere. Organgrinder, Spillsville and Spin Out were all great. So glad Brambles wasn’t closed for no reason like it often is. It skied great today. Can GMVS only close it when they’re actually doing racing?? Half the time it is closed even when they’re not racing!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It is not closed for no reason. You exit into Inverness so that has to be available too and not exiting into a race lane.
GMVS does not close trails. We do and obviously consider requests from GMVS.


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## WinS (Mar 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Slidebrook, What did you think about that Cat?   Lift ops said the controls malfunctioned but it was gone later so they mush have figured it out.  Imagine what the operator was feeling like when the controls failed?  Pretty scary.



It is a very challenging trail to groom. I rode in the cab over evening when we groomed it one evening and the view from that seat made me appreciate the skill of our groomers.


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## WinS (Mar 1, 2020)

thebigo said:


> We were planning on k spring passes to cover nh april vacation week but looks like ikon covers this april at sb, next year early season at sr, next nh april vacation at sb and next may at k. Need to sell wife on a family vacation at sb, last week of april into may. Seven year old and I will ski, old lady and three year old will swim.
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that sb will not be open the last week of april?
> Are there any other family activities near sb? Minigolf? Arcade? Bowling? Museum?
> What about restaurants? Nothing fancy, local beer, wings, nachos and kids food.



Our plan is to stay open every day at Lincoln Peak until Sunday April 26th and reopen the next weekend for a final two days. Like past years we have made extra snow of Stein’s, Upper Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee Run.


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## WinS (Mar 1, 2020)

billo said:


> Haven't read through all 7,000+ posts in this thread but does Sugarbush use alternate facts to define their 4,000 acres of skiable terrain.
> 
> I mean that's quite impressive compared to the tiny 2,500 acres of Jackson Hole or the mediocre 3,100 acres at Revelstoke.  Maybe it was the elevation change getting to me, but I could swear a run like Pitch Black at Revy (one cut trail) could easily fit every single cut trail at SB within it.



4,000 is our inbounds acreage and does include Slidebrook Basin.


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2020)

WinS said:


> 4,000 is our inbounds acreage and does include Slidebrook Basin.



It seems like just the mathematical area bound by the ski area boundaries that is very unlikely to be 100% skiable (even in the best snow conditions).


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## mister moose (Mar 1, 2020)

billo said:


> It seems like just the mathematical area bound by the ski area boundaries that is very unlikely to be 100% skiable (even in the best snow conditions).


The area contained by resort boundaries is by definition skiable acreage for resorts that have an all woods skiing policy.  Jackson is a tall triangle, whereas Sugarbush is a wide rectangle.  I'm pretty sure Jackson has contained areas that are not skiable, what's your point?  I'd guess Sugarbush pumps more water up the hill in a season than Jackson as well, but neither marketing factoid changes the obvious and significant differences that exist between the two.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Slidebrook, What did you think about that Cat?   Lift ops said the controls malfunctioned but it was gone later so they mush have figured it out.  Imagine what the operator was feeling like when the controls failed?  Pretty scary.



The sprocket for one of the treads broke and it slid off the trail. They were able to fix it during the day. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 1, 2020)

WinS said:


> It is not closed for no reason. You exit into Inverness so that has to be available too and not exiting into a race lane.
> GMVS does not close trails. We do and obviously consider requests from GMVS.



Many times when Inverness is clear and open with no racing Brambles is still closed even though no racing is occurring. 


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 1, 2020)

billo said:


> *It seems like just** the mathematical area bound by the ski area boundaries that is very unlikely to be 100% skiable **(even in the best snow conditions).*



*Ski Marketing 101:* _ If you're not lying, you're not trying_


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2020)

cdskier said:


> And this is a a major reason why no matter what type of lift is between lp and me or how often it runs you will still see a ton of people stay at south.
> 
> There really is very limited roi doing anything more with that lift at this point.
> 
> ...



Agree with this completely.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2020)

I prefer we keep talking about Sugarbush instead of individual posters.


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## p_levert (Mar 1, 2020)

WinS said:


> Like past years we have made extra snow of Stein’s, Upper Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee Run.



It's a good plan, but the weak link is Upper Snowball, right?  Upper Snowball is ridiculously exposed to the sun.  Wouldn't it make sense to plant some spruce trees to create a sun-protected alley on the north side?  This seems like a more efficient way to go, rather than blowing giant whales, as you do now.


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## machski (Mar 1, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I mean come on, last time I was at Ellen when I went to use the bathroom, one of the toilets was flooding everywhere and it was a mess. It was packed in there with little natural light. I know there are plans for an adaptive sports expansion, but the current adaptive facility is pathetic. Not trying to bash on Sugarbush, but compared to the Gate House Lodge which is one of the best ski lodges I’ve been in, the Ellen lodge is pathetic. While it may be fine midweek, on weekends its flaws are definitely made clear.
> 
> Another side note. When I was skiing with my sister and her boyfriend last weekend he asked the Slide Brook liftie why there was only one RFID gate and he simply replied “they’re too cheap to add more”. Haha.
> 
> ...


Would this work for you:

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=820

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 1, 2020)

machski said:


> Would this work for you:
> 
> https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=820
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I’ve seen that. It’s honestly just better IMO to start over. I can’t imagine matching the expansion to the same design as the rest of the lodge is cheap to do. Expanding it is only going to be a minor improvement and not something that will bring more skiers in to start at that side of the mountain. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 1, 2020)

So... why is Slide Brook not running tomorrow? There is plenty of snow and temperatures are warm enough. If it has to do with wind I have never seen any mountain guarantee that a lift won’t run a day in advance. Did it have mechanical issues today? 


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## rocks860 (Mar 1, 2020)

I’m thinking of going up this coming Saturday to use my last quad pack ticket. Looks like snow forecasted as well


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2020)

mister moose said:


> The area contained by resort boundaries is by definition skiable acreage for resorts that have an all woods skiing policy.  Jackson is a tall triangle, whereas Sugarbush is a wide rectangle.  I'm pretty sure Jackson has contained areas that are not skiable, what's your point?  I'd guess Sugarbush pumps more water up the hill in a season than Jackson as well, but neither marketing factoid changes the obvious and significant differences that exist between the two.



The point, Sugarbush has nowhere near 4000 acres of skiable terrain. Jackson Hole has every bit of 2500 acres of skiable terrain, conservatively.


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## Hawk (Mar 1, 2020)

Today was pretty awesome again but where did all the people go.  No lines at all.  Looks like IKON skiers only ski Saturdays.  LOL 
So the plan today was to go to very obscure places in search of Powder snow.  But that got canned when we discovered.......there were places not so off the beaten path that were untracked.  Again faith restored.  Also met two different 2 skier pairs at the slidebrook bus that are long time SB skiers that ski basically the same places we do.  have never met them before. After conversations and a few laughs we went our separate ways.  Really nice like minded people.  Another faith restored moment.  I really love this place.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2020)

Enough Snow: yes
Above 5 degrees: yes
Little wind: yes 

What’s going on here?? 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

The bigger question is why would they run it?  It's a Monday following a holiday period.  Peak season is over. The mountain will be quiet today. 

 It honestly probably only makes fiscal sense to run it weekends for a few more weeks and that's it.  You want investment in snowmaking, lift and lodge infrastructure or new trails?  That doesn't happen if you waste money operationally. 

The number of M-F skiers this time of year  who will be upset that SB is closed is inconsequential.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> The bigger question is why would they run it?  It's a Monday following a holiday period.  Peak season is over. The mountain will be quiet today.
> 
> It honestly probably only makes fiscal sense to run it weekends for a few more weeks and that's it.  You want investment in snowmaking, lift and lodge infrastructure or new trails?  That doesn't happen if you waste money operationally.
> 
> ...



Then how come it has always run midweek since around 2016?? If you run it only on weekends the thing will only run about 12-16 days per year which unless it’s a backup lift, just isn’t sustainable. Win realized how little it ran and tried to improve it by running it midweek. People appreciate it midweek too. I’m almost certain that the reason for the closure was not because of the crowds as it has been known to run M-F whenever the list of things they want to have in order to run it is met. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

Time of year.  It's March.  The number of midweek skiers nosedives after February break unless it's a powder day.  I didn't say close it M-F all season, but off peak? Yes, it makes fiscal sense to close it M-F.  

If I were running the show I would aim to operate SB 7 days a week from XMas through end of February provided the weather and snowpack permits.  Then from there, weekends only until Mt Ellen closes. 

Now is the time of year to preserve profits to carry you through the off season and help fund summer capital projects.  That means lift closures and reduced F&B operations midweek.  

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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2020)

I think things have changed.  We have a new owner.  I would speculate that there are bigger or different priorities now.  You just can't say, well they did it in the past so it should be the same now.  Things change and inevitably there will be things that we all will not like.  But there will also be things we do like.  Honestly I still have not rode the SB lift this year so it's lost on me.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

I've never been to SB when Slidebrook was open. Generally a mid week skier.

So then the concept of an "all mountain" pass at SB midweek is a little misleading, unless you want to shuttle around.

Days that SB doesn't run should have a lower Lincoln Peak only pass price... why pay for what you can't realistically ski


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I think things have changed.  We have a new owner.  I would speculate that there are bigger or different priorities now.  You just can't say, well they did it in the past so it should be the same now.  Things change and inevitably there will be things that we all will not like.  But there will also be things we do like.  Honestly I still have not rode the SB lift this year so it's lost on me.



Just curious, why wouldn’t you ride it. Wouldn’t you rather ski your favorite trails/woods at both sides each day? I would rather ski Spillsville and Semi Tough in the same day rather than just one of those. 


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Little wind: yes



Well NL at LP is on wind hold right now per the report, so I don't know that's necessarily true that there's little wind. However as you already pointed out they planned this closure yesterday, so I doubt wind is the reason (although may have closed it anyway even if it was scheduled today).

I am a bit curious too on the reason for the closure, but I'm not there so don't really care quite that much. I'm sure SB has a reason. And they really don't need to explain every single operational decision to us. We're a bit spoiled that Win has been so active over the years as a participant here to give us a lot of details. Most resorts don't have that type of interaction and "insider info" shared.


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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2020)

I can understand your point but I will offer this.  Last Friday was an example of why the all mountain pass was key.  I was there for the powder day.  Everything started out OK at 9 until they stated closing lifts.  First HG then CR and finally NL.  At that point it was Bravo and Gate house which got all tracked and beat down.  A quick hop on the bus and Bang, back in business.  Mt Ellen was fully open.  The winds effect both areas totally different and it is a great benefit when the weather is challenging.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I've never been to SB when Slidebrook was open. Generally a mid week skier.
> 
> So then the concept of an "all mountain" pass at SB midweek is a little misleading, unless you want to shuttle around.
> 
> Days that SB doesn't run should have a lower Lincoln Peak only pass price... why pay for what you can't realistically ski



You must just have had bad luck. I've been there dozens of midweek days over the years where it has been running and only a few where it hasn't been.

However saying LP should be discounted when SB isn't running is a stretch. You can absolutely "realistically" ski both on the same day without Slidebrook running. K's ticket includes access to Pico (which isn't connected via a lift any day of the week). Yet they don't lower their price further on the days when Pico isn't even open at all.


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## tumbler (Mar 2, 2020)

You can ski both mountains easily in the same day by taking the bus.  And the bus has longer operating hours than the lift.

Great skiing this weekend, Saturday was awesome.  Sunday was moving slow after apres into the Grift.  Good times.


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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2020)

I do ski both mountains in the same day.  I just ski the slidebrook area down to the bus and in about 5 minutes I am at Ellen skiing those trails.  Also consider this.  You have to take the Gatehouse lift, then the slidebrook lift, then the North ridge.  Usually by that time I am cold and sick of being on lifts.  The way I do it I have a great run all by myself, the bus comes every 30 minutes so if you time it right it is a 5 minute wait, a warm 5 minute bus ride and then straight onto GMX.  I enjoy that way more.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just curious, why wouldn’t you ride it. Wouldn’t you rather ski your favorite trails/woods at both sides each day? I would rather ski Spillsville and Semi Tough in the same day rather than just one of those.



Honestly I've only taken it once or twice so far this season. LP and ME each have more terrain than I can realistically ski in a day. There needs to be a compelling reason to make me switch between the two once I start at one mountain (i.e. crowds, lift holds, or not liking conditions for some reason and thinking maybe the other mountain will be different).

This weekend I was at LP the whole time and was just having too much fun to even think about taking time to get over to ME (and I still missed a few things at LP that I would have liked to have skied there).


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

I've never been to Sugarbush South and thought "this is boring I need another mountain". Although as Hawk points out its perfectly reasonable to do so, given the opportunity.

It would certainly be more customer oriented to offer a Sugarbush South only ticket though. Current pricing scheme seems like a "Mount Ellen tax" for people that have no intention of skiing it on any given day.


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## jaybird (Mar 2, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I can understand your point but I will offer this.  Last Friday was an example of why the all mountain pass was key.  I was there for the powder day.  Everything started out OK at 9 until they stated closing lifts.  First HG then CR and finally NL.  At that point it was Bravo and Gate house which got all tracked and beat down.  A quick hop on the bus and Bang, back in business.  Mt Ellen was fully open.  The winds effect both areas totally different and it is a great benefit when the weather is challenging.


The bus is absolutely the best option between bases .. and especially on a windy day like last Friday. Interestingly, we didn't find the snow at LP that 'beaten down' although the woods bump lines did get a tad gnarly.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I've never been to Sugarbush South and thought "this is boring I need another mountain". Although as Hawk points out its perfectly reasonable to do so, given the opportunity.
> 
> It would certainly be more customer oriented to offer a Sugarbush South only ticket though. Current pricing scheme seems like a "Mount Ellen tax" for people that have no intention of skiing it on any given day.


Do you feel the same way about Killington/Pico?

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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> It would certainly be more customer oriented to offer a Sugarbush South only ticket though. Current pricing scheme seems like a "Mount Ellen tax" for people that have no intention of skiing it on any given day.



Mathematically speaking, if you compare the amount of terrain at each and use ME's day ticket price as the basis to create an "LP only" ticket, then LP should actually be priced right around where it is today for an "LP-only" ticket. (ME has somewhere around 35-40% of SB's terrain while LP has 60-65%). From that perspective, you could say you're actually getting ME as a "free bonus" when you buy an LP ticket today.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you feel the same way about Killington/Pico?



It's marketed a little differently, as in "Your Killington Pass is also good at Pico Mountain!", which implies it's a free bonus if you choose to take it. (re: cdskier)

Both resorts seem to be using their multiple mountains as a reason to have among the highest ticket prices in the East, but it's not actually justified for the large majority who won't bother switching mountains mid-day. (yes they are still very large resorts even without their satellite areas)

Don't have "strong feelings" on the matter -- I only ski either of these mountains anymore on promo passes. Just pointing out what seems right + fair.

Was there ever a time when LP only, ME only, and "North/South" tickets were offered simultaneously?


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## granite (Mar 2, 2020)

I paid $58 to ski Mount Ellen on Saturday (02-29-20), great deal-great terrain-great snow-practically no lift lines.  People coming over from SB said it was crowded on that side.


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## WinS (Mar 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Enough Snow: yes
> Above 5 degrees: yes
> Little wind: yes
> 
> ...



There is always a good reason why it doesn’t run since it is scheduled every day that ME is open. Late yesterday we had an electrical breaker fail on Bravo, so we borrowed the one from SB until we can get an new one. It is more important to have Bravo running. 

As far as the discussion on the separate pricing for a ME ticket and pass it began when it was deemed discriminatory to have a local or a VT price on USFS land. Our response was to have a ME ONLY price which anyone can buy. Also supply and demand says the less expensive should be where there is less demand or more supply. That was not the original intent but it makes sense today.


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## mikec142 (Mar 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> There is always a good reason why it doesn’t run since it is scheduled every day that ME is open. Late yesterday we had an electrical breaker fail on Bravo, so we borrowed the one from SB until we can get an new one. It is more important to have Bravo running.
> 
> As far as the discussion on the separate pricing for a ME ticket and pass it began when it was deemed discriminatory to have a local or a VT price on USFS land. Our response was to have a ME ONLY price which anyone can buy. Also supply and demand says the less expensive should be where there is less demand or more supply. That was not the original intent but it makes sense today.



Win,

Thanks as always for the very reasonable explanation.


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## Orca (Mar 2, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I do ski both mountains in the same day.  I just ski the slidebrook area down to the bus and in about 5 minutes I am at Ellen skiing those trails.  Also consider this.  You have to take the Gatehouse lift, then the slidebrook lift, then the North ridge.  Usually by that time I am cold and sick of being on lifts.  The way I do it I have a great run all by myself, the bus comes every 30 minutes so if you time it right it is a 5 minute wait, a warm 5 minute bus ride and then straight onto GMX.  I enjoy that way more.



That is what I do too


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## hub8 (Mar 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> There is always a good reason why it doesn’t run since it is scheduled every day that ME is open. Late yesterday we had an electrical breaker fail on Bravo, so we borrowed the one from SB until we can get an new one. It is more important to have Bravo running.
> 
> As far as the discussion on the separate pricing for a ME ticket and pass it began when it was deemed discriminatory to have a local or a VT price on USFS land. Our response was to have a ME ONLY price which anyone can buy. Also supply and demand says the less expensive should be where there is less demand or more supply. That was not the original intent but it makes sense today.


Yes. We have been spoiled!  Hope there will still be this kind of insights or scoops in the future.

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> There is always a good reason why it doesn’t run since it is scheduled every day that ME is open. Late yesterday we had an electrical breaker fail on Bravo, so we borrowed the one from SB until we can get an new one. It is more important to have Bravo running.
> 
> As far as the discussion on the separate pricing for a ME ticket and pass it began when it was deemed discriminatory to have a local or a VT price on USFS land. Our response was to have a ME ONLY price which anyone can buy. Also supply and demand says the less expensive should be where there is less demand or more supply. That was not the original intent but it makes sense today.



So when is it expected to be fixed? Also, what do you mean by a breaker? 


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## Hawk (Mar 2, 2020)

Look up electrical Circuit Breaker on Google.  You know the big switch that protects the circuitry from overload or ground fault.  Is also used to kill the power.


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## ducky (Mar 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> ....it began when it was deemed discriminatory to have a local or a VT price on USFS land.



Ha. That was my old neighbor, Mike Krapowski, a lawyer from CT who objected to a discounted VT Day. There was even a bumper sticker, "Who is Mike Krapowski anyway?" Locals were pissed.

I believe SB bought him out with caveats never to return.

Skied quite well today despite having to scramble around the windholds. CR was ok as were some of the lower trees. Got warm in the pm with some stickiness, despite my yellow wax efforts.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ha. That was my old neighbor, Mike Krapowski, a lawyer from CT who objected to a discounted VT Day. There was even a bumper sticker, "Who is Mike Krapowski anyway?" Locals were pissed.
> 
> I believe SB bought him out with caveats never to return.



Sounds like a special kind of awful human being.

Though is doesnt surprise me.  The one I'm shocked by is how Jay Peak can accept CAD at par with USD, which I would think could be attacked from several different angles.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sounds like a special kind of awful human being.
> 
> Though is doesnt surprise me.  The one I'm shocked by is how Jay Peak can accept CAD at par with USD, which I would think could be attacked from several different angles.



if you really care, just go to the bank and exchange for some canadian currency, and then use it to pay jay in cash. seems like a lot of effort to save like $10/ticket, and do you really care so much about jay throwing a bone to canadians when montreal is their closest major market?


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## WinS (Mar 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So when is it expected to be fixed? Also, what do you mean by a breaker?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hawk answered what it is.When? As soon as the $4,000 breaker arrives. Hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2020)

WinS said:


> Hawk answered what it is.When? As soon as the $4,000 breaker arrives. Hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday.



Wow. Glad it is coming so quickly. Are those sold by Doppelmayr directly or is it a separate supplier? How do you simply move a breaker from Slide Brook to Bravo? Doesn’t seem like an easy process. 


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## urungus (Mar 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you really care, just go to the bank and exchange for some canadian currency, and then use it to pay jay in cash. seems like a lot of effort to save like $10/ticket, and do you really care so much about jay throwing a bone to canadians when montreal is their closest major market?



You also have to show proof of Canadian residency.  https://jaypeakresort.com/trip-planning/par-policy


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you really care, just go to the bank and exchange for some canadian currency, and then use it to pay jay in cash. seems like a lot of effort to save like $10/ticket, and do you really care so much about jay throwing a bone to canadians when montreal is their closest major market?



You need to show Canadian residency I believe 


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 2, 2020)

Me and the family will be there monday the 9th. Hoping the forecast stays just as it is. 

and Win, please dont shut down slidebrook that day:lol:


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## Newpylong (Mar 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Wow. Glad it is coming so quickly. Are those sold by Doppelmayr directly or is it a separate supplier? How do you simply move a breaker from Slide Brook to Bravo? Doesn’t seem like an easy process.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



An electrician who deals with high voltage can do it. The breakers themselves for that many amps and either 480 or 4160 volts are about the size of your fist. However the housing for the breaker is substantially larger. As Win mentioned they by no means are readily availably usually custom order. We had to pull one off an old snowmaking pump (drive) to keep our lift going a while back mid-winter.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you really care, just *go to the bank and exchange for some canadian currency, and then use it to pay jay in cash. *seems like a lot of effort to save like $10/ticket



Trust me, I did this when I was young & poor; and it was way more than $10 back then!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

urungus said:


> You also have to show proof of Canadian residency.  https://jaypeakresort.com/trip-planning/par-policy


Interesting.  Either wasn't the policy or wasn't enforced when I skied Jay while at UVM in the late 90s.  Jay tickets were around $45 US, but about $30 Canadian back then.  The couple times I went as a student we just went to a bank in Burlington and headed on up. Never got questioned.  Considering I made about $60 a night delivering pizza for Leonardo's then, saving $15 was a big deal.  

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

^  And Jay's ticket window was the size of a photobooth, and it was a bit before where the stairs are now.


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> An electrician who deals with high voltage can do it. The breakers themselves for that many amps and either 480 or 4160 volts are about the size of your fist. However the housing for the breaker is substantially larger. As Win mentioned they by no means are readily availably usually custom order. We had to pull one off an old snowmaking pump (drive) to keep our lift going a while back mid-winter.



Actually size can vary widely depending on the manufacturer.  Cutler Hammer, Siemens and Square D are the main suppliers.  I think Sugarbush has mostly Siemens gear.  I would imagine all the systems up there are 480 Volt.  Larger specialty voltages can make for long lead times to get parts.  Seeing as it sounds like they are over-nighting it from somewhere it must be on a shelf but at $4,000 it must be something that is specialized.  That is a lot of money for a breaker.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 3, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Actually size can vary widely depending on the manufacturer.  Cutler Hammer, Siemens and Square D are the main suppliers.  I think Sugarbush has mostly Siemens gear.  I would imagine all the systems up there are 480 Volt.  Larger specialty voltages can make for long lead times to get parts.  Seeing as it sounds like they are over-nighting it from somewhere it must be on a shelf but at $4,000 it must be something that is specialized.  That is a lot of money for a breaker.



I know Sugarbush uses Cutler Hammer buttons on their Dopp detaches as well as Telux switches. They could be using Siemens as you mentioned though for electrical equipment. 
The picture shows the Doppelmayr control dashboards on Slide Brook. 








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## tumbler (Mar 3, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ha. That was my old neighbor, Mike Krapowski, a lawyer from CT who objected to a discounted VT Day. There was even a bumper sticker, "Who is Mike Krapowski anyway?" Locals were pissed.
> 
> I believe SB bought him out with caveats never to return.
> 
> Skied quite well today despite having to scramble around the windholds. CR was ok as were some of the lower trees. Got warm in the pm with some stickiness, despite my yellow wax efforts.



Haha!! I forgot about that A-Hole.  Thanks for the chuckle.


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## Newpylong (Mar 3, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Actually size can vary widely depending on the manufacturer.  Cutler Hammer, Siemens and Square D are the main suppliers.  I think Sugarbush has mostly Siemens gear.  I would imagine all the systems up there are 480 Volt.  Larger specialty voltages can make for long lead times to get parts.  Seeing as it sounds like they are over-nighting it from somewhere it must be on a shelf but at $4,000 it must be something that is specialized.  That is a lot of money for a breaker.



$4,000 is absolutely in line with what I have seen for a breaker of that size. If that motor is 750 HP, then the breaker would be a 1,000 amps assuming 480V/3PH which it more than likely is. That is a massive breaker. For comparison, the last round of 60A/480V Siemens breakers I put in just for fan guns were just shy of 2 grand. The 300A/480V Square D breaker we put in for a pump was nearly 3 grand. The stuff aint cheap and the amperage is what makes it specialized for industrial applications - no local electrical supplier would stock equipment like that.


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## Hawk (Mar 3, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> $4,000 is absolutely in line with what I have seen for a breaker of that size. If that motor is 750 HP, then the breaker would be a 1,000 amps assuming 480V/3PH which it more than likely is. That is a massive breaker. For comparison, the last round of 60A/480V Siemens breakers I put in just for fan guns were just shy of 2 grand. The 300A/480V Square D breaker we put in for a pump was nearly 3 grand. The stuff aint cheap and the amperage is what makes it specialized for industrial applications - no local electrical supplier would stock equipment like that.



No I agree.  It certainly isn't. Sounds like we should be in the breaker business.  ;-)


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## Newpylong (Mar 3, 2020)

Someone has to be making out on it!


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## rocks860 (Mar 3, 2020)

Looks like I’ll be up there on Saturday if anyone is around and wants to take a run or two


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## WinS (Mar 3, 2020)

Hawk said:


> No I agree.  It certainly isn't. Sounds like we should be in the breaker business.  ;-)




You all know a lot and spared me from having respond to SB 87 about the breaker. Should be here tomorrow.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 4, 2020)

I believe today is when Alterra announces their investments for next season. I expect a new lift at Mammoth, Squaw Alpine gondola, timber expansion at Tremblant and expanded/new mid-mountain dining at Sugarbush along with snowmaking upgrades. 


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 4, 2020)

new mid mountain lodge sounds great.  Seems aggressive for year 1 unless SB has had this in the works all along for announcement this spring.


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2020)

There is no way they do a mid mountain lodge right now.  They have to do all the study work and get an Act 250 approval.  I think Win was saying that the new conference center in the space between the Village Quad and the Farm house is a more likely option.  They have already done work on that and have that slot approved in the master plan.


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## slatham (Mar 4, 2020)

Hawk said:


> There is no way they do a mid mountain lodge right now.  They have to do all the study work and get an Act 250 approval.  I think Win was saying that the new conference center in the space between the Village Quad and the Farm house is a more likely option.  They have already done work on that and have that slot approved in the master plan.



Agreed, though you don't need Act 250 approval to announce plans for a mid-mountain lodge!


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2020)

Slidebrook was saying that Altera is announcing next years work.  My point was that they would not be able to start a project that they have not even started the ground work on next year.  It is at least 2-3 years out if that is something they are planning.


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Slidebrook was saying that Altera is announcing next years work.  My point was that they would not be able to start a project that they have not even started the ground work on next year.  It is at least 2-3 years out if that is something they are planning.



Agreed...and this was the first thing that entered my mind too when I read his post. I'm honestly not expecting a ton of CapEx spending in year 1 from Alterra. Even if they "want to make a big splash" and show commitment to SB early on, I still think most of what needs to be done requires more time for planning and permitting. Even the snow-making upgrades which I know they said they started planning I don't think has made it to ACT 250 permit submission yet (or at least I didn't see any submissions on it yet in the ACT 250 db).


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 4, 2020)

Hi Win quick question for you if you see this.

I'm thinking about bringing the family up Sunday or Monday. I see that you guys have a pretty light grooming pattern going on today, I think something was mentioned about it being due to the warmer temperatures.

Do you have any idea if this pattern will continue through the weekend and next Monday? I personally like it when a lot of the the trails are groomed. If the light grooming pattern will most likely continue through Sunday and Monday I may postpone using my last quad pass for another week. If that's too far out to look forward and predict what you guys will do I totally get it.

Thanks, I'm not complaining, just trying to make the most informed decision I can so that we have the best day that we can up there. You guys know more about running a ski resort than I do LOL

Best, Eric


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2020)

Eric - not sure if this helps or not, but I can at least give you some info from the perspective of a "regular" that has seen what has been done historically. Light grooming plans are traditionally done when temps overnight are above freezing or drop below freezing really late. If it was warm and/or rainy during the day, ideally you need temps to drop before you groom to allow the snow to "set up". Looking at forecasts for the next few days shows cold nights through Saturday night. So I'd expect pretty typical grooming plans during that time. Sunday will be warm and Sunday night could be a question mark on how cold it gets and how quickly it gets there. So Sunday night into Monday could be a scenario where you again have a lighter grooming plan.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 4, 2020)

what I'd like to see year 1? 

keep $30 thursdays at mount Ellen,  keep mT ellen only passes, No change to the costs/conditions of the quad passes, re-enegage with ski shops to offer free kids lift tickets as a perk for renting skis for the season at local shops. 

All of the above would show a commitment to the community and traditions of Sugarbush. Anything else in year 1 is gravy to me.

all of the above help me ski more at SB as well. $30 thursdays let me have a thur-fri or wed-thur 2 day family trip instead of a 1 day trip. The quadpasses let me pick the days I want to go so we go on the best days. If the day Im looking at isnt a wednesday or friday, we buy ME only tix for the 2nd day as we can afford that and again, we get 2 days instead of 1.

We started skiing sugarbush because one year a couple years back my kids season lease package from our local ski shop included free kids all mountain passes at SB.  Nows it our favorite place to ski. But last year, the shop said SB was not going to do that deal with them. I'd like to see then rethink that, 2 free kids passes means I'm buying an extra quad pass to go up there one extra time each year with the family and a couple solo trips. They'd come out ahead on that one.

Very curious and hopeful about what the future holds.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 4, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Eric - not sure if this helps or not, but I can at least give you some info from the perspective of a "regular" that has seen what has been done historically. Light grooming plans are traditionally done when temps overnight are above freezing or drop below freezing really late. If it was warm and/or rainy during the day, ideally you need temps to drop before you groom to allow the snow to "set up". Looking at forecasts for the next few days shows cold nights through Saturday night. So I'd expect pretty typical grooming plans during that time. Sunday will be warm and Sunday night could be a question mark on how cold it gets and how quickly it gets there. So Sunday night into Monday could be a scenario where you again have a lighter grooming plan.



Thank you very much my friend that is very helpful!

 I was considering going monday instead of sunday to avoid crowds, but now i may go Sunday or hold off. Sunday looks great but with those warm temps Im thinking the place will be crowded so maybe not. thanks again!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2020)

It’s March. Crowds are done. Sundays are never that bad and will be less bad than midwinter now that casual skier types are moving on and it’s warm in the suburbs


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## MorningWoods (Mar 4, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Agreed...and this was the first thing that entered my mind too when I read his post. I'm honestly not expecting a ton of CapEx spending in year 1 from Alterra. Even if they "want to make a big splash" and show commitment to SB early on, I still think most of what needs to be done requires more time for planning and permitting. Even the snow-making upgrades which I know they said they started planning I don't think has made it to ACT 250 permit submission yet (or at least I didn't see any submissions on it yet in the ACT 250 db).



I read somewhere that there are changes coming to Act 250. Wonder if that will have any impact on what sugarbush can do going forward? 


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 4, 2020)

Thx!


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## WinS (Mar 4, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Hi Win quick question for you if you see this.
> 
> I'm thinking about bringing the family up Sunday or Monday. I see that you guys have a pretty light grooming pattern going on today, I think something was mentioned about it being due to the warmer temperatures.
> 
> ...



Hi Eric,

Given the soft snow and the rain yesterday evening we did not groom first shift, so we had a limited plan. Tonight we will be back to a more normal plan grooming 50 trails and so long as conditions permit will continue doing so.


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## WinS (Mar 4, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I believe today is when Alterra announces their investments for next season. I expect a new lift at Mammoth, Squaw Alpine gondola, timber expansion at Tremblant and expanded/new mid-mountain dining at Sugarbush along with snowmaking upgrades.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We were purchased after the other Alterra CAPEX budgets were completed, so we are working on this year's plan now.  As I have said in the past we have three priorities that we have been focused on and will continue to recommend. This is a resort up process not a Denver down one.  First priority is basic maintenance. Second is snowmaking.  The master plan is to increase snowmaking capacity at LP and there will be several steps in a multi-year plan.  First is to replace the weir (dam) at the Mad River do ensure we can withdraw water into the pond.  Second is to move to new and larger diameter pipe on certain trails and to install some Klik hydrants to allow for faster start-up on trails where we have towers. Ultimately, we are planning to build another snowmaking pond and to increase the water capacity up to the mountain to significantly increase our GPM.  The third priority is to design, permit and build a new mid-mountain lodge at the Gatehouse plateau and to build a new Glen House lodge for Walt's at ME. Both have the opportunities for summer as well as winter business. As Hawk said this will require local as well as Act 250 planning so the earliest this could be completed would be the for the 21/22 winter season. We will also have to look at a better long-term solution for employee housing rather than renting all over the Valley.
These are our ideas and obviously need to be approved, so don't take them as done.

As you have seen from our season pass announcement we have retained many of our local products in addition to offering the Ikon passes as a replacement for others.  Alterra obviously wants consistency across their resorts in important ways, but does not micro manage and looks to the local team to recommend what they feel is best for their resort.


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## 1dog (Mar 4, 2020)

WinS said:


> We were purchased after the other Alterra CAPEX budgets were completed, so we are working on this year's plan now.  As I have said in the past we have three priorities that we have been focused on and will continue to recommend. This is a resort up process not a Denver down one.  First priority is basic maintenance. Second is snowmaking.  The master plan is to increase snowmaking capacity at LP and there will be several steps in a multi-year plan.  First is to replace the weir (dam) at the Mad River do ensure we can withdraw water into the pond.  Second is to move to new and larger diameter pipe on certain trails and to install some Klik hydrants to allow for faster start-up on trails where we have towers. Ultimately, we are planning to build another snowmaking pond and to increase the water capacity up to the mountain to significantly increase our GPM.  The third priority is to design, permit and build a new mid-mountain lodge at the Gatehouse plateau and to build a new Glen House lodge for Walt's at ME. Both have the opportunities for summer as well as winter business. As Hawk said this will require local as well as Act 250 planning so the earliest this could be completed would be the for the 21/22 winter season. We will also have to look at a better long-term solution for employee housing rather than renting all over the Valley.
> These are our ideas and obviously need to be approved, so don't take them as done.
> 
> As you have seen from our season pass announcement we have retained many of our local products in addition to offering the Ikon passes as a replacement for others.  Alterra obviously wants consistency across their resorts in important ways, but does not micro manage and looks to the local team to recommend what they feel is best for their resort.



Couldn't ask for more really. Clear objectives and benefits to most all. I'm sure there will be lift critiques - can't please everyone. Thx Win.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 4, 2020)

WinS said:


> We were purchased after the other Alterra CAPEX budgets were completed, so we are working on this year's plan now.  As I have said in the past we have three priorities that we have been focused on and will continue to recommend. This is a resort up process not a Denver down one.  First priority is basic maintenance. Second is snowmaking.  The master plan is to increase snowmaking capacity at LP and there will be several steps in a multi-year plan.  First is to replace the weir (dam) at the Mad River do ensure we can withdraw water into the pond.  Second is to move to new and larger diameter pipe on certain trails and to install some Klik hydrants to allow for faster start-up on trails where we have towers. Ultimately, we are planning to build another snowmaking pond and to increase the water capacity up to the mountain to significantly increase our GPM.  The third priority is to design, permit and build a new mid-mountain lodge at the Gatehouse plateau and to build a new Glen House lodge for Walt's at ME. Both have the opportunities for summer as well as winter business. As Hawk said this will require local as well as Act 250 planning so the earliest this could be completed would be the for the 21/22 winter season. We will also have to look at a better long-term solution for employee housing rather than renting all over the Valley.
> These are our ideas and obviously need to be approved, so don't take them as done.
> 
> As you have seen from our season pass announcement we have retained many of our local products in addition to offering the Ikon passes as a replacement for others.  Alterra obviously wants consistency across their resorts in important ways, but does not micro manage and looks to the local team to recommend what they feel is best for their resort.



I really like the idea of the lodge at the top of Gate House. It will serve as a much needed “hub”. I have mentioned this before along with a restored connection between sides. As much as a Glen House rebuild is nescessary, a new Ellen Lodge is also needed. I would think that it would be better to start by expanding base facilities in need of upgrade before moving onto the Glen House. Are you looking at putting snowmaking on Sugar Run? I’ve heard that is in pretty desperate need of snowmaking. 


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## TheArchitect (Mar 4, 2020)

Win, I hope you know how much we appreciate the information you share with us.


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I really like the idea of the lodge at the top of Gate House. It will serve as a much needed “hub”. I have mentioned this before along with a restored connection between sides. As much as a Glen House rebuild is nescessary, a new Ellen Lodge is also needed. I would think that it would be better to start by expanding base facilities in need of upgrade before moving onto the Glen House. Are you looking at putting snowmaking on Sugar Run? I’ve heard that is in pretty desperate need of snowmaking.



Considering that they're moving ahead with the Vermont Adaptive addition to the Ellen lodge, I wouldn't expect a new Ellen Lodge anytime in the near future. I'm sure VT Adaptive has discussed the plans for Ellen's base lodge with SB and wouldn't be spending $2M on the expansion if a new Ellen base lodge was part of any sort of near term plan. I think a new Glen House makes more sense than completely redoing the base lodge at Ellen anyway especially if there's an opportunity to potentially make it a bit bigger. More ROI with that than with a new base lodge which would cost substantially more money than a new Glen House.


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## Newpylong (Mar 4, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I really like the idea of the lodge at the top of Gate House. It will serve as a much needed “hub”. I have mentioned this before along with a restored connection between sides. As much as a Glen House rebuild is nescessary, a new Ellen Lodge is also needed. I would think that it would be better to start by expanding base facilities in need of upgrade before moving onto the Glen House. Are you looking at putting snowmaking on Sugar Run? I’ve heard that is in pretty desperate need of snowmaking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sugar Run is a fairly short drag through the woods from Riemer if it was critical that it be covered.

Win - has there been any discussion of increasing capacity at Ellen? On the water side that system seems undersized for the acreage covered - but obviously if you're meeting your coverage targets it may me a moot point, but figured I'd ask.


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Sugar Run is a fairly short drag through the woods from Riemer if it was critical that it be covered.
> 
> Win - has there been any discussion of increasing capacity at Ellen? On the water side that system seems undersized for the acreage covered - but obviously if you're meeting your coverage targets it may me a moot point, but figured I'd ask.



They put park features on Sugar Run, so they must be dragging hoses today to do that.

As for Ellen's capacity...why do I think I remember something about not being able to expand it due to some sort of grandfathered permit?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

I remember overhearing a conversation in mountain ops about how crucial beginner terrain at the Ellen side has no snowmaking. I just assumed it was Sugar Run. How much work is it to drag hoses and is it worth it to invest in snowmaking on that trail when hoses can be dragged over? 


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## Greg (Mar 5, 2020)

WinS said:


> Alterra obviously wants consistency across their resorts in important ways, but does not micro manage and looks to the local team to recommend what they feel is best for their resort.



Good to hear. With that said, should we expect daily operations to remain constant (early season trail openings with thin cover, minimal grooming, preserving most of the classic natural snow trails?) I know infrastructure, lifts, snowmaking, etc. are important to some, but I love Sugarbush predominantly for the terrain so I hope that aspect never changes.


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## dustyroads (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Considering that they're moving ahead with the Vermont Adaptive addition to the Ellen lodge, I wouldn't expect a new Ellen Lodge anytime in the near future. I'm sure VT Adaptive has discussed the plans for Ellen's base lodge with SB and wouldn't be spending $2M on the expansion if a new Ellen base lodge was part of any sort of near term plan. I think a new Glen House makes more sense than completely redoing the base lodge at Ellen anyway especially if there's an opportunity to potentially make it a bit bigger. More ROI with that than with a new base lodge which would cost substantially more money than a new Glen House.



One would think it would be way more cost effective, less disruptive and less time consuming to do the Adaptive addition and new Ellen lodge at the same time.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> One would think it would be way more cost effective, less disruptive and less time consuming to do the Adaptive addition and new Ellen lodge at the same time.



^^


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2020)

Glad to hear a new (hopefully expanded) Glen House is in the near future plans.  As for the base lodge, it would function better if all the obnoxious race parents and kids weren't clogging it up.  Can they go to the GMVS building?  How about putting something temporary for the winter in for them?  I like the character of the building and that the bar is on the top floor with windows and not in the basement.  
Also more happy about the Gatehouse flats lodge.  Having that be full service will be sweet.  Just add a lift from the intersection of CR runout and Header up to the flats so GH lift isn't the only way there.  Nice terrain in there, just need another bridge over Clay brook.


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## 1dog (Mar 5, 2020)

but its all south-facing terrain - Orchard and Emerald are good the way they are - maybe a T bar to keep the 'Rock vibe' w shady  trees to keep sun off? And maybe more people would leave CR for NL - ok I'm sold.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> One would think it would be way more cost effective, less disruptive and less time consuming to do the Adaptive addition and new Ellen lodge at the same time.



I think you missed my point. You're right about what you said, but since they're not doing that, the logical conclusion is that there are no immediate plans to actually have a new Ellen lodge in the near future. If there were, then VT Adaptive wouldn't be spending the $2M now. I'm not personally convinced a "new" Ellen base lodge is needed to begin with. The other lodge items Win mentioned already (top of GH and Glen House) are more of a priority.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

So is the Conference Center and Hotel at the bottom near the School House off the table?  Just curious.  We were thinking that the Wedding and conference revenue coming in year round would virtually pay for it.


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## tumbler (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> So is the Conference Center and Hotel at the bottom near the School House off the table?  Just curious.  We were thinking that the Wedding and conference revenue coming in year round would virtually pay for it.



I bet weddings will make a huge profit center for the Gatehouse flats lodge.  And form what Win wrote they must be thinking about he new Glen House for this.


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## dustyroads (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I think you missed my point. You're right about what you said, but since they're not doing that, the logical conclusion is that there are no immediate plans to actually have a new Ellen lodge in the near future. If there were, then VT Adaptive wouldn't be spending the $2M now. I'm not personally convinced a "new" Ellen base lodge is needed to begin with. The other lodge items Win mentioned already (top of GH and Glen House) are more of a priority.



I don't disagree with anything you are saying ether. I just see a lot of shared expenses being lost. Starting with permitting, legal, engineering, excavation, demolition, ground utilities and going forward.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I bet weddings will make a huge profit center for the Gatehouse flats lodge.  And form what Win wrote they must be thinking about he new Glen House for this.



The issue with that is they need to either install a gondola at Gate House or install a road to shuttle the guests.  Any weather or cold basically a disaster for the wedding party.  If I was paying Thousands to have a wedding I wouldn't book without either of these.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The issue with that is they need to either install a gondola at Gate House or install a road to shuttle the guests.  Any weather or cold basically a disaster for the wedding party.  If I was paying Thousands to have a wedding I wouldn't book without either of these.



I know they've done ceremonies at the top of GH in the past and I've personally seen guests for a wedding going up the GH lift for the event (one was the same day as Brew fest a few years ago). Depends how they do it, but you could always have a base area location as a backup option in case of inclement weather that would make getting up GH challenging.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

I've been to three weddings up at the top of gate house.  It is nice for the ceremony, but if you now have a building up there and you set up for a wedding, tables, chairs, decorations, food, band, it would be really hard to call an audible.


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## rocks860 (Mar 5, 2020)

So how crappy should I expect it to be going up on Saturday? I have one last quad pack ticket to use and no opportunity for the foreseeable future to get up there


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

Groomers and hard moguls with some dust on top...


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Groomers and hard moguls with some dust on top...



Sadly...yes. It is a shame how quickly we go from amazing last week to "meh" this week. Sunday could be nice once things warm up though.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

And we could still get dumped on at any time..remember last year. March 22 23..big dump


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath this season.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> So is the Conference Center and Hotel at the bottom near the School House off the table?  Just curious.  We were thinking that the Wedding and conference revenue coming in year round would virtually pay for it.



maybe its just not considered an on mountain project.  fwiw-I think the demand is there for a hotel.  I know people have had trouble getting rooms.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> maybe its just not considered an on mountain project.  fwiw-I think the demand is there for a hotel.  I know people have had trouble getting rooms.



Then again...if we don't add rooms, it helps limit our potential crowds to a point :razz:


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## MorningWoods (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I've been to three weddings up at the top of gate house.  It is nice for the ceremony, but if you now have a building up there and you set up for a wedding, tables, chairs, decorations, food, band, it would be really hard to call an audible.



Yes. Exactly. Major issue. Yeah we have a great lodge for 40k or whatever it costs. But you may be in a tent because we don’t have an alternative to get up there in bad weather? 


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## rocks860 (Mar 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Groomers and hard moguls with some dust on top...



Ugh. Not ideal. In hindsight really wish I had gone up last week


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 5, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> Ugh. Not ideal. In hindsight really wish I had gone up last week
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I try not to miss many weekends, but this weekend is out for me. Yard work and bike riding is much more appealing to me than driving north for the hardpack. This does break rule #1 which is "Always go the mountain, there is always some fun"
I would wait for a spring weekend in April when you can have some real fun if you are not booked that far out.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

I missed all the good stuff too. If its going to be warm later in the day I just...go later. But I can do that at Stowe as its close.


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## ducky (Mar 5, 2020)

Today started out firm but was beautiful corn by 10:30. Felt much warmer than 42˚ in the sun.


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## WinS (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> So is the Conference Center and Hotel at the bottom near the School House off the table?  Just curious.  We were thinking that the Wedding and conference revenue coming in year round would virtually pay for it.



No just a separate project to look at and see if the ROI if there. Personally, I think it is but will have to prove it.


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## WinS (Mar 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> One would think it would be way more cost effective, less disruptive and less time consuming to do the Adaptive addition and new Ellen lodge at the same time.



The issue with ME Lodge is we are maxed out on water and waste water, but would need to find more of both to do any expansion. That is likely but will take time and planning.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

ducky said:


> Today started out firm but was beautiful corn by 10:30. Felt much warmer than 42˚ in the sun.



Nice Ducky.  Today looked to be the day.  Tomorrow will be clouds, colder with some light snow.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

The idea should be that one can start their day at either side and not feel like they’re compromising in terms of amenities. Things like the fireplace and deck should be kept as design features of the new lodge. I feel like more natural light would also be a nice improvement. Seeing what has been done with Gate House, I’m sure something great could be designed. 


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

I like to feel I'm "compromising" on amenities and focusing on skiing. That's why I'm usually down the road


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I like to feel I'm "compromising" on amenities and focusing on skiing. That's why I'm usually down the road



I focus on skiing as well. I have 30 days at SB this year and could probably count on 1 hand the number of days I've been in any of the base lodges at either Lincoln or Ellen.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I like to feel I'm "compromising" on amenities and focusing on skiing. That's why I'm usually down the road



Mad River will always be a unique place, but Sugarbush is a resort not a simple ski area like MRG. Sugarbush is a resort, and the drastic difference in amenities at Lincoln versus Ellen is astonishing. The Lincoln Peak base area has been invested in so much and early/late season operations have all been switched to Lincoln. It’s a shame. If I had it my way I would’ve invested in both sides gradually with Lincoln having more of a focus on real estate since much of it was developed years ago. At this point I don’t think Ellen should get much more than a nice and large base lodge. I actually like Ellen in many aspects better than Lincoln, the main aspect being the lift system. Two relatively fast detachables get you to a lot of vertical in a short time. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I focus on skiing as well. I have 30 days at SB this year and could probably count on 1 hand the number of days I've been in any of the base lodges at either Lincoln or Ellen.



Yes, but most families and guests appreciate nice base facilities. Ski bums will always be ski bums no matter where they go. 


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## mikec142 (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The idea should be that one can start their day at either side and not feel like they’re compromising in terms of amenities. Things like the fireplace and deck should be kept as design features of the new lodge. I feel like more natural light would also be a nice improvement. Seeing what has been done with Gate House, I’m sure something great could be designed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Would love to see all the great ideas for Sugarbush put into action.  However, the real world includes the financial aspect of any improvements.  So to me, the question would be, how bad do you want a new lodge at ME?  Would you be willing to pay $20/day pass more?  What's the number?


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

I like Ellen too but haven't been in years. If it wasn't right next door to MRG might be a different story. I usually ski mid week so skiing right on to Single chair or Sunny Side is the East Coast dream.

That said I have *never* booted up @ my car without bringing a packpack and boots into the lodge to change into. Even if there is a shuttle bus, it's just my habit. My least favorite part of skiing is the walk from car to lodge -- and usually I'm buying a lift ticket in the lodge anyway. Walking with ski boots ain't my thing.

So Sugarbush South, the lodge being so far away from the parking and generally crowded and annoying, you gotta climb a bunch of stairs and walk past giant Protect Our Winter banners (political charlatan NGO), a slight deterrent. I won't go on weekends until late March at least (and I hope to if Win doesn't ban me). Mt Ellen I can't even accurately remember the lodge it's been too long. I remember it being similar to Bolton lodge though, which is smallish yet adequate most of the time.



mikec142 said:


> Would you be willing to pay  $20/day pass more?  What's the number?



$159


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I like Ellen too but haven't been in years. If it wasn't right next door to MRG might be a different story. I usually ski mid week so skiing right on to Single chair or Sunny Side is the East Coast dream.
> 
> That said I have *never* booted up @ my car without bringing a packpack and boots into the lodge to change into. My least favorite part of skiing is the walk from car to lodge -- and usually I'm buying a lift ticket in the lodge anyway. Walking with boots ain't my thing.
> 
> So Sugarbush South, the lodge being so far away from the parking and generally crowded and annoying, a slight deterrent. Mt Ellen I can't even accurately remember the lodge it's been too long. I remember it being similar to Bolton lodge though, which is smallish yet adequate most of the time.



There’s always the Jitney


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Would love to see all the great ideas for Sugarbush put into action.  However, the real world includes the financial aspect of any improvements.  So to me, the question would be, how bad do you want a new lodge at ME?  Would you be willing to pay $20/day pass more?  What's the number?



lol, as if he pays anything for anything.


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## mikec142 (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Sugarbush is a resort, and the drastic difference in amenities at Lincoln versus Ellen is astonishing. The Lincoln Peak base area has been invested in so much and early/late season operations have all been switched to Lincoln. It’s a shame. If I had it my way I would’ve invested in both sides gradually with Lincoln having more of a focus on real estate since much of it was developed years ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



SB87...have you skied at Stowe in the past 10 years?  The Spruce side is gorgeous and the Mansfield side has a base lodge that makes Mount Ellen look good.

It's hard to build both sides gradually.  There has been a lot of (money generating) real estate built at LP.  People won't buy there if there aren't amenities.


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## mikec142 (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> That said I have *never* booted up @ my car without bringing a packpack and boots into the lodge to change into. Even if there is a shuttle bus, it's just my habit. My least favorite part of skiing is the walk from car to lodge -- and usually I'm buying a lift ticket in the lodge anyway. Walking with ski boots ain't my thing.



Interesting.  I'm almost the exact opposite.  I'm wearing my ski gear (minus jacket, gloves, helmet, boots, etc.) on the ride from lodging to the mountain.  After dropping the family or companions off with their gear as close to the mountain as possible, I park and gear up at the car.  I'm not carrying anything with me that can't fit in a jacket or pant pocket.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> SB87...have you skied at Stowe in the past 10 years?  The Spruce side is gorgeous and the Mansfield side has a base lodge that makes Mount Ellen look good.
> 
> It's hard to build both sides gradually.  There has been a lot of (money generating) real estate built at LP.  People won't buy there if there aren't amenities.



Yes. If this was a Stowe thread I would have the same thinking, but not quite as strong. Since Spruce and Mansfield are so close together, you can easily boot up at Spruce and hop on the gondola over. I heard somewhere that they can’t change the Mansfield lodge because it is on forest service land. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

i also tend to get dressed in the lodge, but im starting in brooklyn at 2:30 AM and i just put socks and base layers and jeans on, then finish dressing when i arrive. 

on sundays i typically get fully dressed at lodging and drive to mountain, but bring bag with civilian clothes to change into in the lodge before driving home sunday afternoon/evening

i change right in the lodge/cafeteria and don't really care. ski base layers all come off and get replaced with a t-shirt. bottom base layers come off and i'm standing there in t-shirts and boxer briefs for two seconds while i put my jeans back on. get a few weird looks but for the most part no one seems to care.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

Yeah that's why I wear nylon/poly running pants with zipper bottoms to fit over the boots over my underwear and under my ski pants on ski days.

Perfectly comfortable to drive in there and back and I don't have to expose myself in the lodge (always thinking of the women and children). If it's a really warm spring day I can just ditch the ski pants altogether.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes. If this was a Stowe thread I would have the same thinking, but not quite as strong. Since Spruce and Mansfield are so close together, you can easily boot up at Spruce and hop on the gondola over. I heard somewhere that they can’t change the Mansfield lodge because it is on forest service land.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Basically no parking at Spruce.  Have to boot up at Mansfield and take Over Easy Gondola over to Spruce.  Totally blows for families with young kids.  Bar none Stowe has the worst setup in New England for young families unless you are Uber wealthy and can afford staying in the lodge at Spruce.

Mansfield lodge is preserved on the list of National Historic places.  That's why it can't be augmented.  

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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

When I am not booting up in my living room and skiing over to hill, I park and walk up to gate house lodge and boot up in the plaza on one of the benches.  I find that when I boot up in the lodge I get too hot.  Unless it is a blizzard outside.  Then I usually boot up upstairs were there is more room.  I have to have my bag with me so so I can change out of my wet gear and have a few drinks with friends in the bar.


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## rocks860 (Mar 5, 2020)

Not sure I’m going to have another free weekend so I’m gonna head up on Saturday, at least it will be a day of skiing


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## shadyjay (Mar 5, 2020)

I really like the Mt Ellen base lodge, as well as the GML upstairs.  Sure, it can get crowded on weekends, but that's part of the charm.  There is usually space available upstairs on the flanks on either side of GML. 

One big drawback is the restrooms all the way in the basement.  This makes it a trek if you're up at GML and nature calls.  I don't ski so my snowboard boots are more comfortable and more stair friendly, but still.  I believe this is being rectified as part of the Vermont Adaptive expansion, at least with restrooms on the main level.  

I'd like to see Castlerock Pub out of the basement before a new ME base.  Imagine how cool it would be if the pub was upstairs, somehow.  Maybe expand closer to the plaza and put the pub above, to the east of the Courtyard Room.  It could still have access during an event in the upstairs rooms via the existing elevator and another stairway?  Main entrance to the pub would be by the Bag Storage room.  

All for a lodge at Gate House plateau.  Have always thought something like that would be very popular.  

Hoping for a good storm soon... coming up in 2 weeks!!!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

mount ellen base lodge would be fine if it wasnt overrun by racer children and their parents with their tableclothes and crock pots and seat saving bullshit.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> mount ellen base lodge would be fine if it wasnt overrun by racer children and their parents with their tableclothes and crock pots and seat saving bullshit.



Agreed. Those GMVS kids have to be some of the most annoying people I have ever encountered. Then again, they barely ever say a word. Haha. 


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yes, but most families and guests appreciate nice base facilities. Ski bums will always be ski bums no matter where they go.



If you're calling me a ski bum, then we must have different definitions of ski bums...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

Not a 100% thing, but generally, the shittier the non-skiing amenities, the more I like the place

see: magic, mad river, mount ellen, silverton, a-basin, crystal, alta, kicking horse, etc

You can take your fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters and shove it. nothing worse than an okemo, Stratton, vail, etc. places like k and bush fall in the middle of the spectrum. soul skiing is about skiing.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> If you're calling me a ski bum, then we must have different definitions of ski bums...



Just curious, what would be your definition of a ski bum? I usually just use it as a general term for someone that only cares about the skiing itself and is generally hardcore. 


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not a 100% thing, but generally, the shittier the non-skiing amenities, the more I like the place
> 
> see: magic, mad river, mount ellen, silverton, a-basin, crystal, alta, kicking horse, etc
> 
> You can take your fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters and shove it. nothing worse than an okemo, Stratton, vail, etc. places like k and bush fall in the middle of the spectrum. soul skiing is about skiing.



I'd personally be a bit disappointed to see Ellen with flashy new base facilities. I do think it would negatively impact the character that makes ME so cool today.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not a 100% thing, but generally, the shittier the non-skiing amenities, the more I like the place
> 
> see: magic, mad river, mount ellen, silverton, a-basin, crystal, alta, kicking horse, etc
> 
> You can take your fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters and shove it. nothing worse than an okemo, Stratton, vail, etc. places like k and bush fall in the middle of the spectrum. soul skiing is about skiing.



I think a good mix like Sugarbush and Killington are definitely my favorite. There is a reason that Okemo and Stratton have been so successful though and that has to be considered. Not saying every place should be like that, but a place like Sugarbush is able to take what has worked at a place like Stratton and take it to a mountain that is more focused on the skiing.  


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

My family (3 kids and a wife) boot up in the parking lot unless the weather says otherwise - cold and wind. Learned when the kids were young that it was a PIA to carry all their shit up their and we stuck with it. They see people carrying shit in and laugh at them now. 

And agree with KtK about the places I love.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think a good mix like Sugarbush and Killington are definitely my favorite. There is a reason that Okemo and Stratton have been so successful though and that has to be considered. Not saying every place should be like that, but a place like Sugarbush is able to take what has worked at a place like Stratton and take it to a mountain that is more focused on the skiing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Right but they have the fancy Lincoln side and the down home side of Ellen. I like to see it stay that way.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just curious, what would be your definition of a ski bum? I usually just use it as a general term for someone that only cares about the skiing itself and is generally hardcore.



From https://blog.liftopia.com/ways-spot-a-ski-bum/ -

_Ski Bum (noun phrase): A person who frequents ski resorts habitually, often doing casual jobs, for the sake of skiing.

–The Dictionary of American Slang, Fourth Edition by Barbara Ann Kipfer, PhD. and Robert L. Chapman, Ph.D.

Or, to put it in more illustrative terms, a ski bum is one who, in order to epitomize a snow-loving Peter Pan, avoids all trappings of adulthood. This may include accepting: mediocre to deplorable living situations, jobs that pay in pizza and wearing a nametag that also includes one’s hometown. All of these elements, which would be indignities for anyone else in their 20s, 30s, 40s or beyond, are acceptable to the ski bum, as they are small sacrifices to make on the road to achieving nirvana (nirvana = as many days on the mountain as possible)._

I work a normal job in corporate America and ski primarily weekends...I don't consider that a ski bum. I may be hardcore in the sense that I'm crazy enough to drive 5 hours each way every weekend to do so. But that's about it...



Smellytele said:


> Right but they have the fancy Lincoln side and the down home side of Ellen. I like to see it stay that way.



I know a lot of people agree with that as well. SB87 is like the new guy at work that shows up and wants to start changing everything on day 1 before even understanding how or why things are done a certain way.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not a 100% thing, but generally, the shittier the non-skiing amenities, the more I like the place
> 
> see: magic, mad river, mount ellen, silverton, a-basin, crystal, alta, kicking horse, etc
> 
> You can take your fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters and shove it. nothing worse than an okemo, Stratton, vail, etc. places like k and bush fall in the middle of the spectrum. soul skiing is about skiing.


+1

Ideally I want a stripped down mountain experience that's close to a town with decent nightlife.   I don't like seeing massive slopeside lodging or faux base villages.  

So, Wildcat is just about perfect for me here in New England.  Old School skiing with a decent Apres scene in the Valley.  Cannon / Lincoln is a good mix too.  Stowe was perfect until they screwed it up with Uber Spruce.  Still killer terrain, but the vibe is so different from the 90s.  I don't know a single Stowe local who wishes they couldn't turn the clock back 20 years or more. 

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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

the worst offender, maybe even worse than vail, is tremblant. that faux euro ski village is the absolute worst. and the crowds and general quality of skier is always worse at these sorts of places, and tremblant exemplifies that best.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not a 100% thing, but generally, the shittier the non-skiing amenities, the more I like the place
> 
> see: magic, mad river, mount ellen, silverton, a-basin, crystal, alta, kicking horse, etc
> 
> You can take your fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters and shove it. nothing worse than an okemo, Stratton, vail, etc. places like k and bush fall in the middle of the spectrum. soul skiing is about skiing.



Pretty much.   The only thing you left out is the fact the, "fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters" places also attract terrible skiers and/or people who aren't even really there to ski first-and-foremost.

DHS mentioned Stowe; I'll add that Jay Peak is on its' way to being destroyed as well.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> mount ellen base lodge would be fine if it wasnt overrun by racer children and their parents with their tableclothes and crock pots and seat saving bullshit.



I am in the Mt Ellen base lodge almost every weekend I don't see "racer children and their parents with their tableclothes and crock pots and seat saving bullshit".  

What I do see are a lot of real skiers and riders, locals and families there to have a good time.  Spring is around the corner and IMHO there is no better place to be then the deck at Mt Ellen for apres ski beers on a sunny day.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Pretty much.   The only thing you left out is the fact the, "fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters" places also attract terrible skiers and/or people who aren't even really there to ski first-and-foremost.
> 
> DHS mentioned Stowe; I'll add that Jay Peak is on its' way to being destroyed as well.



lol see follow up post re: tremblant, above.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> I am in the Mt Ellen base lodge almost every weekend I don't see "racer children and their parents with their tableclothes and crock pots and seat saving bullshit".
> 
> What I do see are a lot of real skiers and riders, locals and families there to have a good time.  Spring is around the corner and IMHO there is no better place to be then the deck at Mt Ellen for apres ski beers on a sunny day.



im there less than you are, but i find myself there ~3 days a season, almost always a saturday, and every time i've ever gone to the 2nd floor i have needed to fight thru hordes of rude little racers, and mom is def holding down the fort, sitting alone at a table for 10, with a checked picnic tablecloth to hold the space for when her precious little future bodes and mikaelas want a hot cocoa and homemade chili.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im there less than you are, but i find myself there ~3 days a season, almost always a saturday, and every time i've ever gone to the 2nd floor i have needed to fight thru hordes of rude little racers, and mom is def holding down the fort, sitting alone at a table for 10, with a checked picnic tablecloth to hold the space for when her precious little future bodes and mikaelas want a hot cocoa and homemade chili.



You hate children so...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

i do. so i am more prone to notice when a place is overrun with that specific vermin.

but really, my girlfriend generally spends most of the day in the lodge, and mount ellen was problematic for her because she couldnt find a comfortable seat with power and she had to listen to racer kids screeching all day long. i came in for a beer and to say hi at some point and couldnt believe how many of them were scurrying around with their dirty little noses running.

honestly, best lodge in the east we've found for sole purpose of girlfriend sitting around and working/reading/drinking all day = whiteface by a mile. couches, fireplaces, three separate dining options (cafeteria, restaurant, bar). bar with big views of the mountain. multiple decks and outdoor spaces. very nice lodge, while never venturing into bougie territory.

she also had fun at belleayre. again, couches, fireplaces, outdoor decks. that was also pond skimming day with 50 degrees and sunny, so hard to have a bad time. but, ya, go ORDA, diggin the lodge situations.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i do. so i am more prone to notice when a place is overrun with that specific vermin.
> 
> but really, my girlfriend generally spends most of the day in the lodge, and mount ellen was problematic for her because she couldnt find a comfortable seat with power and she had to listen to racer kids screeching all day long. i came in for a beer and to say hi at some point and couldnt believe how many of them were scurrying around with their dirty little noses running.
> 
> honestly, best lodge in the east we've found for sole purpose of girlfriend sitting around and working/reading/drinking all day = whiteface by a mile. couches, fireplaces, three separate dining options (cafeteria, restaurant, bar). bar with big views of the mountain. multiple decks and outdoor spaces. very nice lodge.



So you hate kids even though you were one... Interesting... 

I do agree though that ski racers have to be some of the most obnoxious kids ever. I was at Berkshire East and they were jumping around near the table. Next thing you knew while they were fighting a water bottle got knocked over and spilled all over someone’s ski bag. 


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So you hate kids even though you were one... Interesting...
> 
> I do agree though that ski racers have to be some of the most obnoxious kids ever. I was at Berkshire East and they were jumping around near the table. Next thing you knew while they were fighting a water bottle got knocked over and spilled all over someone’s ski bag.
> 
> ...



Thing is the coaches and parents let them get away with it. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

i noticed it on an even more extreme level at burke earlier this season. the BMA kids seem to be a whole other level of entitled racer child given the prestige of their training grounds and program.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Pretty much.   The only thing you left out is the fact the, "fancy restaurants, spas, and mountain coasters" places also attract terrible skiers and/or people who aren't even really there to ski first-and-foremost.
> 
> DHS mentioned Stowe; I'll add that Jay Peak is on its' way to being destroyed as well.


I don't like what happened to Jay, but I understand it.  They had no town or bed base.  It's a similar scenario to Sugarloaf in that it's so remote, they had to develop big to make it more viable.

Stowe?  They didn't have to do anything. It was plenty busy and successful as it once was.  Though I remember very well Hank Lunde crying poverty, saying they couldn't compete with their neighbors to the South and without Spruce Village, Stowe would have to resort to a shorter season and more Spartan MRG type operation.  

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## nhskier1969 (Mar 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Glad to hear a new (hopefully expanded) Glen House is in the near future plans.  As for the base lodge, it would function better if all the obnoxious race parents and kids weren't clogging it up.  Can they go to the GMVS building?  How about putting something temporary for the winter in for them?  I like the character of the building and that the bar is on the top floor with windows and not in the basement.
> Also more happy about the Gatehouse flats lodge.  Having that be full service will be sweet.  Just add a lift from the intersection of CR runout and Header up to the flats so GH lift isn't the only way there.  Nice terrain in there, just need another bridge over Clay brook.



I've been thinking that also.  This would take pressure off Gatehouse quad.  It will also get more people over to Ellen.  How many of you wanted to Go to Ellen or ski North Lynx only to see a Sh*t show of a line a Gatehouse. then you change your mind?


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

Strange I haven’t taken the gatehouse chair in years. I only ski there 3 or 4 times a year but never take it. Even more so since the upgrade of the valley house chair.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I've been thinking that also.  This would take pressure off Gatehouse quad.  It will also get more people over to Ellen.  How many of you wanted to Go to Ellen or ski North Lynx only to see a Sh*t show of a line a Gatehouse. then you change your mind?



I just suck it up and wait in the singles line, but I won’t come back down to Gate House. I love to lap Gate House but it’s been so hard to do this year because of the ridiculous lines. At the speed it runs at it only moves 1,900 p/h up the mountain. Design capacity is 2,400 p/h. Because of the abundance of beginners it has to run slow. A simple fix for the short time is to create a new loading ramp setup. The current one is awful. It’s relatively steep and worse of all it gets narrower. This results in people trying to use a pizza stop to slow down and getting tangled with other people’s skis. A flatter loading setup possibly with loading gates could help bump the speed up a bit and therefore increase capacity. 


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## MorningWoods (Mar 5, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I've been thinking that also.  This would take pressure off Gatehouse quad.  It will also get more people over to Ellen.  How many of you wanted to Go to Ellen or ski North Lynx only to see a Sh*t show of a line a Gatehouse. then you change your mind?



Yup. Gatehouse is an issue. I’d like to hear what the plan is to mitigate that when they build a new lodge up there. Won’t that make the situation worse? Realistically I can’t imagine the lift you are describing would be in the cards. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Yup. Gatehouse is an issue. I’d like to hear what the plan is to mitigate that when they build a new lodge up there. Won’t that make the situation worse? Realistically I can’t imagine the lift you are describing would be in the cards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The Castlerock Connection lift is just silly and a waste of money. 20 minutes in line isn’t worth a lift purely built for access. Unless terrain was built there, I just can’t see that happening. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

So just curious, why is the Inverness Quad open today and tomorrow since it is usually a weekends only lift? Same goes with Valley House. 


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So just curious, why is the Inverness Quad open today and tomorrow since it is usually a weekends only lift? Same goes with Valley House.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Can't speak to Inverness as I don't pay as much attention to it...but VH is always open on Fridays.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Can't speak to Inverness as I don't pay as much attention to it...but VH is always open on Fridays.



Wasn’t it open today though? 


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Wasn’t it open today though?



Not based on the report when I looked at it this morning...


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Not based on the report when I looked at it this morning...



Maybe not then. Must’ve been confusing it with tomorrow’s report. 


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## teleo (Mar 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Wasn’t it open today though?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wasn't running this afternoon.  Had to take bravo to snowball, which had some sweet corn!


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## Orca (Mar 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd personally be a bit disappointed to see Ellen with flashy new base facilities. I do think it would negatively impact the character that makes ME so cool today.



Yeah. A new ME base lodge would be great if we liked nice things, which we don't! Maybe it could be made crappier (though that is hard to imagine) and thus cooler!

It's disgusting in there on a Saturday. Overrun, ugly. Can't get out of there quick enough.

Mad River's basebox is charming and commodious by comparison. I like it. Likening the two seems like a sin.


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## djd66 (Mar 6, 2020)

Orca said:


> Yeah. A new ME base lodge would be great if we liked nice things, which we don't! Maybe it could be made crappier (though that is hard to imagine) and thus cooler!
> 
> It's disgusting in there on a Saturday. Overrun, ugly. Can't get out of there quick enough.
> 
> Mad River's basebox is charming and commodious by comparison. I like it. Likening the two seems like a sin.



This is funny!


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## ducky (Mar 6, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im there less than you are, but i find myself there ~3 days a season, almost always a saturday, and every time i've ever gone to the 2nd floor i have needed to fight thru hordes of rude little racers, and mom is def holding down the fort, sitting alone at a table for 10, with a checked picnic tablecloth to hold the space for when her precious little future bodes and mikaelas want a hot cocoa and homemade chili.



Those are race families from other VT areas racing against GMVS Club kids on Invy - agreed it can be annoying. Most of the GMVS Club parents (big difference from proper GMVS Academy) are skiing the woods and bumps (rather well too) and drinking at GML apres. There are loads of regulars at GML who have been GMVS Club parents at some point in their lives, some going back decades. In contrast, the academy kids are only there midweek, 8-12, and on specific training plans, unless they're hosting a big race like this weekend. It is probably good financially and from a PR perspective to have 200 or so people from all over Vermont, NH, and the ADK coming to race on Inverness, even if a bit crowded in the lodge. There are big plans afoot to improve what is known as the Kelly Brush Race Arena. Like it or not, GMVS and Sugarbush have been partners since 1973 and GMVS has been representing SB all over the world; Doug Lewis being one name that jumps to mind. During the World Cup Women's Slalom at K in November, the Swiss National Team trains at SB. There are currently roughly a dozen GMVS grads skiing on one of the US or Canadian National teams and many more skiing NCAA or USCSA.

https://www.skiracing.com/stories/g...llar-transformation-of-kelly-brush-race-arena

I too prefer the down-scale Mt Ellen to the upscale-ish LP. My tendency is to ski/ride LP weekdays and MtE on weekends. I'd hate to see much "improvement" of the Mt Ellen Base Lodge, bathrooms aside. 

Worried by some of the "ski bum" definitions above, I may qualify.


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The Castlerock Connection lift is just silly and a waste of money. 20 minutes in line isn’t worth a lift purely built for access. Unless terrain was built there, I just can’t see that happening.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't think an inexpensive T bar from the intersection of Castlerock Runout / Gondolier to the flat at the top of gatehouse Quad would relieve a ton of pressure off the gatehouse lift once the lodge is installed?  I think you are being silly.


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

It's funny, all the same topics revolve across the internet.  The nostalgic people that love the old charm vs the renovators, the kid/racer haters vs the parents with kids and my favorite on here The ME only people vs the rest of the world.  And no one is wrong, ever.  LOL


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

Since I always ski both and consider it one resort, the difference and lack of amenities at Ellen is crazy. While some people may like this lower key vibe, back to the point of spreading people out, it’s ridiculous to have a tiny base lodge at one side and an extensively developed base village at the Lincoln side. It’s almost like Ellen just got frozen in time while Lincoln kept growing. With everything that has happened at Lincoln in the past 20 years I would expect something, at least something, other than buying some panini makers and turning the Glen House into Walt’s. Win has shown that he cares about the aesthetic element of a base area and I’m sure the classic look of the current lodge could be replicated by a new one. A small courtyard of sorts should also be added sort of where the ticket building is right now. This could provide something similar to what Lincoln has and would draw in many families at the end of the day for s’mores, waffles, music, etc. If the Lincoln Peak Village didn’t exist, I wouldn’t be writing this comment, but because of the drastic difference, Ellen just seems completely neglected. 


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

I was a ski bum for 3 years between College and my first real job.  The criteria for a ski bum is shunning any kind of real job back where you live and taking any old job you can find to sustain living at the mountain or near so you ski as may days as you can.  I skied 100 days, barely slept, drank a ton.  Got fired from at least 2 small jobs for not showing up on a powder day and didn't pay Sh*t for anything.  We split a house with 12 people.  I slept in a closet but at least I could lock it so that my roommates would not steal my stuff.  Lived off Ramen, PB&J and Grill cheese with government issued cheese blocks.  How many of you remember those days?  That by definition is a ski bum.  I am sure Slidebrook you would never have to resort to any of that.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You don't think an inexpensive T bar from the intersection of Castlerock Runout / Gondolier to the flat at the top of gatehouse Quad would relieve a ton of pressure off the gatehouse lift once the lodge is installed?  I think you are being silly.



T-Bars usually run around $500,000 to $1,000,000 so they’re not exactly cheap. For a lift that you can’t lap and really isn’t logistical if you think about it, just isn’t worth it. Unless more trails were developed over there, I could never see that happening. 


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> T-Bars usually run around $500,000 to $1,000,000 so they’re not exactly cheap. For a lift that you can’t lap and really isn’t logistical if you think about it, just isn’t worth it. Unless more trails were developed over there, I could never see that happening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Highly disagree with everything you say up here.  What about buying a used Tbar.  Also the run is not that long.  You can do it for less that $1M.  And when the line at Gate house is 20+ minutes long which it has been all year long this year, that T-Bar would not be the most popular lift to get to you slidebrook or North links?  You are wrong.  That is very logistical and totally worth it.


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> T-Bars usually run around $500,000 to $1,000,000 so they’re not exactly cheap. For a lift that you can’t lap and really isn’t logistical if you think about it, just isn’t worth it. Unless more trails were developed over there, I could never see that happening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you read the rest of my original post proposing this, is that it would have terrain in there but would need a bridge to cross Clay Brook to get back to the bottom of the lift.


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The Castlerock Connection lift is just silly and a waste of money. 20 minutes in line isn’t worth a lift purely built for access. Unless terrain was built there, I just can’t see that happening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is coming from the guy who is obsessed with Slide Brook lift?  I would say that lift is purely built for access.  You?


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Since I always ski both and consider it one resort, the difference and lack of amenities at Ellen is crazy. While some people may like this lower key vibe, back to the point of spreading people out, it’s ridiculous to have a tiny base lodge at one side and an extensively developed base village at the Lincoln side. It’s almost like Ellen just got frozen in time while Lincoln kept growing. With everything that has happened at Lincoln in the past 20 years I would expect something, at least something, other than buying some panini makers and turning the Glen House into Walt’s. Win has shown that he cares about the aesthetic element of a base area and I’m sure the classic look of the current lodge could be replicated by a new one. A small courtyard of sorts should also be added sort of where the ticket building is right now. This could provide something similar to what Lincoln has and would draw in many families at the end of the day for s’mores, waffles, music, etc. If the Lincoln Peak Village didn’t exist, I wouldn’t be writing this comment, but because of the drastic difference, Ellen just seems completely neglected.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do some more research on the history of the two areas.  Mt Ellen was the progressive mountain with all the amenities and snowmaking until 1995 when Les transformed South into what it is now with all the lifts and snowmaking.  South barely had any snowmaking then.  Win was able to build the new lodges and base area off that.


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## Orca (Mar 6, 2020)

99% percent of people would agree that Ellen has suffered neglect. About 50% of people like that it suffered neglect and want it to continue.


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## Newpylong (Mar 6, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Highly disagree with everything you say up here.  What about buying a used Tbar.  Also the run is not that long.  You can do it for less that $1M.  And when the line at Gate house is 20+ minutes long which it has been all year long this year, that T-Bar would not be the most popular lift to get to you slidebrook or North links?  You are wrong.  That is very logistical and totally worth it.



There are very few if any used decent T-Bars available to acquire and re-install. Most of them are old Halls sitting on NELSAP hills out of service for 20-30 years. That is a 3500' lift, once you build a new liftline, acquire and install the lift, they'll be in for a million easy. Do the comparisons. We put in a 800' used T-bar on an existing liftline that cost $150,000. Act 250 permitting on cutting a new line would be a nightmare. Not to mention this would be a lift that starts nowhere and has no lapping ability. A project with very little/no ROI.


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

how about something like this.....

A small trail off of Gondolier over to it so traffic from the Bravo side can ski directly over.  Or you could ski Header I guess.


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

Actually put the t bar base right at the bottom of Header so that the line does not affect Sleeper.  The return on investment is shorter lines at Gate house.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 6, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You don't think an inexpensive T bar from the intersection of Castlerock Runout / Gondolier to the flat at the top of gatehouse Quad would relieve a ton of pressure off the gatehouse lift once the lodge is installed?  I think you are being silly.



They could get a used double someplace.  It's only going up about 400-500 vertical.


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> They could get a used double someplace.  It's only going up about 400-500 vertical.



Sure that also.  What lift is slated to be replaced next.  Use parts from whatever lift that is.  Make the lift line a new trail and also you could ski Castlerock Connector / Castlerock run-out as a new beginner trail!  There you go everything solved.  LOL


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

Here.  Fixed.....


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

I like it


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## TSQURD (Mar 6, 2020)

*Pass Add-ons*

I can't seem to figure out how to purchase any of the Pass Add-ons.  Wasn't given any options on the ikon site, other than the pass insurance. The SB site will link you back to the ikon site to purchase an adult pass.  Looks like the only way to get the add-ons is with a SB specific pass (young adult, 80+, or under 4).  Not sure if Im missing something or if there is a bug in the site.

Has anyone been able to purchase an Add-on with the Ikon?


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## Hawk (Mar 6, 2020)

We did this yesterday.  We bought the IKON Pass online and then called the pass office at Sugarbush and did it over the phone because we could not figure that portion out on line.


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## ducky (Mar 6, 2020)

Check the GMVS link. I believe they are replacing one of their surface lifts.


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## ducky (Mar 6, 2020)

Btw, super nice soft conditions today.


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## rocks860 (Mar 6, 2020)

Lovely, that means rock hard misery tomorrow. Fingers crossed the temp goes up a bit


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 6, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Yeah that's why I wear nylon/poly running pants with zipper bottoms to fit over the boots over my underwear and under my ski pants on ski days.
> 
> Perfectly comfortable to drive in there and back and I don't have to expose myself in the lodge (always thinking of the women and children). If it's a really warm spring day I can just ditch the ski pants altogether.



Ha! At the end of a day I usually change completely out of my ski gear into comfortable street clothes for the drive home. I turn whichever direction in the lodge feels least crowded when I’m actually shirtless and pantless... out of respect for the kids mostly


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 6, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> SB87...have you skied at Stowe in the past 10 years?  The Spruce side is gorgeous and the Mansfield side has a base lodge that makes Mount Ellen look good.


Huh? Disagree completely about Mansfield vs Mt Ellen base lodges. I’m not saying I mind the ME lodge just that IMO Mansfield is the better.


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## Edd (Mar 6, 2020)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Huh? Disagree completely about Mansfield vs Mt Ellen base lodges. I’m not saying I mind the ME lodge just that IMO Mansfield is the better.



Why? In my memory, Mansfield may have more space for changing into ski gear but the bar setup at ME is way better. Haven’t been to both in years and I’m not a pro about either place.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 6, 2020)

+1Great shortcut!


Hawk said:


> Here.  Fixed.....
> View attachment 26523


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 6, 2020)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Ha! At the end of a day I usually change completely out of my ski gear into comfortable street clothes for the drive home. I turn whichever direction in the lodge feels least crowded when I’m actually shirtless and pantless... out of respect for the kids mostly藍


  BTW in case you were not aware, Gatehouse lower bag storage has 2 completely private changing rooms.


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## WinS (Mar 6, 2020)

ducky said:


> Check the GMVS link. I believe they are replacing one of their surface lifts.



Yes, they are.  Planning a new Poma from the base up to the plateau.  Scheduled for this summer.  It will follow the same line as the existing one. It will just come down lower.


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> Lovely, that means rock hard misery tomorrow. Fingers crossed the temp goes up a bit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I go no matter what and always find something fun to do. :beer:


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 6, 2020)

Edd said:


> Why? In my memory, Mansfield may have more space for changing into ski gear but the bar setup at ME is way better. Haven’t been to both in years and I’m not a pro about either place.



Ok I agree about the bar situation. But in every other aspect I stand by my previous statement. That said I wouldn’t use the Mansfield BL for lunch even if it were free.


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## rocks860 (Mar 6, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I go no matter what and always find something fun to do. :beer:



Oh yeah, I’ll be there, just tempering my expectations, hoping to be surprised 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes, they are.  Planning a new Poma from the base up to the plateau.  Scheduled for this summer.  It will follow the same line as the existing one. It will just come down lower.



It’s a new Leitner Poma T-Bar that will begin where the current t bar does and continue up the skier’s right side of the trail. I’ve ridden both surface lifts and the system works well enough already. Spending $500,000-1,000,000 on a new lift when racers could just ride the Inverness Quad which follows the same line is just a complete waste of money. The current t bar that they spent a ton of money on in 2011 will become completely redundant as people can unload the new t bar at the same spot that the current one ends. Having 3 lifts on one trail just over complicates things. Ideally Inverness would be replaced with a detachable and there would only be one lift. This would also reduce the staffing needed. The only benefit I can think of with this t bar is that it if it runs more often than the current Poma like Valar at Cannon or the one at Sunday River, it can be used for some quick laps on Inverness.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 6, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Here.  Fixed.....
> View attachment 26523




It would be cool to have a trail underneath the lift.  Would ski like Bear Trap at Mount Snow.  Decent pitch, could see huge bumps in the spring.


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2020)

I’ll be there tomorrow as well. Stinking up the place.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

Not up this weekend. Skiing Stratton instead with some friends. 


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## machski (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s a new Leitner Poma T-Bar that will begin where the current t bar does and continue up the skier’s right side of the trail. I’ve ridden both surface lifts and the system works well enough already. Spending $500,000-1,000,000 on a new lift when racers could just ride the Inverness Quad which follows the same line is just a complete waste of money. The current t bar that they spent a ton of money on in 2011 will become completely redundant as people can unload the new t bar at the same spot that the current one ends. Having 3 lifts on one trail just over complicates things. Ideally Inverness would be replaced with a detachable and there would only be one lift. This would also reduce the staffing needed. The only benefit I can think of with this t bar is that it if it runs more often than the current Poma like Valar at Cannon or the one at Sunday River, it can be used for some quick laps on Inverness.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not an additional lift, replacing the one already there I believe.  And while it may seem redundant to you, new high speed T-Bars are the rage with racing programs as it allows the racers to keep their skis on snow and get in more laps per training session.  Look at all the ones going up or in already, Burke/Killington/Sunday River/Sugarbush/Cannon and Sugarloaf is talking of adding one too.  Out west, Vail just installed one with all new race training terrain on the front side.  I wouldn't say it's a waste of money, and most are funded by the racing programs either directly or through fund raising efforts.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## WWF-VT (Mar 6, 2020)

Looks like a firm and fast day on groomers tomorrow....


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

machski said:


> Not an additional lift, replacing the one already there I believe.  And while it may seem redundant to you, new high speed T-Bars are the rage with racing programs as it allows the racers to keep their skis on snow and get in more laps per training session.  Look at all the ones going up or in already, Burke/Killington/Sunday River/Sugarbush/Cannon and Sugarloaf is talking of adding one too.  Out west, Vail just installed one with all new race training terrain on the front side.  I wouldn't say it's a waste of money, and most are funded by the racing programs either directly or through fund raising efforts.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



It’s an indirect replacement of the existing GMVS Poma along a different and longer alignment. The difference with all the other lifts you mentioned is that there isn’t a lift that runs on the exact same alignment as the t bar. Sure, the T-Bar is helpful, but just not worth how much it is. Having to staff 2-3 lifts on one trail can’t be easy. What I have found is that the T-Bar runs for casual race training while the Poma operates to serve races on the headwall. To be honest, this system is fine, if not a bit too complicated. The quad really doesn’t take that long and is only necessary if they are racing along the whole length of the trail which almost never happens. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

https://youtu.be/NzRngXx0Z-0 - Video if existing Poma


https://youtu.be/ltHzXTl2rF8 - Video of T-Bar


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 6, 2020)

This is rule #1. And I'm breaking the rule this weekend!


tumbler said:


> I go no matter what and always find something fun to do. :beer:


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2020)

machski said:


> Not an additional lift, replacing the one already there I believe.  And while it may seem redundant to you, new high speed T-Bars are the rage with racing programs as it allows the racers to keep their skis on snow and get in more laps per training session.  Look at all the ones going up or in already, Burke/Killington/Sunday River/Sugarbush/Cannon and Sugarloaf is talking of adding one too.  Out west, Vail just installed one with all new race training terrain on the front side.  I wouldn't say it's a waste of money, and most are funded by the racing programs either directly or through fund raising efforts.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


All of this plus being more weather resistant too

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Looks like *a firm and fast day on groomers tomorrow*....



And on a Saturday to boot.   Those are the days when bad things sadly happen.


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s a new Leitner Poma T-Bar that will begin where the current t bar does and continue up the skier’s right side of the trail. I’ve ridden both surface lifts and the system works well enough already. Spending $500,000-1,000,000 on a new lift when racers could just ride the Inverness Quad which follows the same line is just a complete waste of money. The current t bar that they spent a ton of money on in 2011 will become completely redundant as people can unload the new t bar at the same spot that the current one ends. Having 3 lifts on one trail just over complicates things. Ideally Inverness would be replaced with a detachable and there would only be one lift. This would also reduce the staffing needed. The only benefit I can think of with this t bar is that it if it runs more often than the current Poma like Valar at Cannon or the one at Sunday River, it can be used for some quick laps on Inverness.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It costs much less to operate and maintain the surface lifts than the I. Don’t need operators for surface lifts, sometimes I see a parent there but never a liftie.  Less towers, simple lift in comparison, less moving parts. And as stated in another post, can run in the wind. GMVS can replace it because...it can.


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## tumbler (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Not up this weekend. Skiing Stratton instead with some friends.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We’ll be expecting a full report on their mountain operations.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

tumbler said:


> We’ll be expecting a full report on their mountain operations.



I haven’t skied there in quite a bit so it’ll be interesting to see how it is. Their mountain ops have always been decent, but there was a lot of deferred maintenance under Intrawest’s ownership. From what I have heard it has gotten much better under Alterra’s ownership. Simple things like making Big Ben a park in order to draw more people to the Solstice lift are great improvements. 


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## Newpylong (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s an indirect replacement of the existing GMVS Poma along a different and longer alignment. The difference with all the other lifts you mentioned is that there isn’t a lift that runs on the exact same alignment as the t bar. Sure, the T-Bar is helpful, but just not worth how much it is. Having to staff 2-3 lifts on one trail can’t be easy. What I have found is that the T-Bar runs for casual race training while the Poma operates to serve races on the headwall. To be honest, this system is fine, if not a bit too complicated. The quad really doesn’t take that long and is only necessary if they are racing along the whole length of the trail which almost never happens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you're not paying to install or operate it can you really say "it's not worth it?"

The fact of the matter is the GMVS Poma is no longer serviceable and rather than do a 1 for 1 they want to extend it's replacement down and only have to run 1 lift vs 2 for T2B training. 

The Inverness Quad is brutal when you need to get as many runs in a short amount of time - take it from a GMVS grad (I was class of 1999). They have 1 class in the AM first thing then they pile into vans and go train for a couple hours, then they have to be back for lunch then classes for the afternoon. But it really doesn't matter, they're paying for it, not the Bush.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I haven’t skied there in quite a bit so it’ll be interesting to see how it is. Their mountain ops have always been decent, but there was a lot of deferred maintenance under Intrawest’s ownership. From what I have heard it has gotten much better under Alterra’s ownership. Simple things like making Big Ben a park in order to draw more people to the Solstice lift are great improvements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ummm what? !?!?  Stratton is at the bottom of the list for mountains that slacked on deferred maintenance over the past 20 years here in New England.  They installed four High speed six packs in that time, upgraded their snowmaking to be as good as anywhere in New England and made major improvements to their base lodge and F&B operations.  Most all of it under Intrawest. 

But it's better now under Alterra because they moved the park?  Newsflash, the Solstice lift is long and SLOW.  The park rats are for certain mostly lapping it via the Sunbowl 6. 

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Ummm what? !?!?  Stratton is at the bottom of the list for mountains that slacked on deferred maintenance over the past 20 years here in New England.  They installed four High speed six packs in that time, upgraded their snowmaking to be as good as anywhere in New England and made major improvements to their base lodge and F&B operations.  Most all of it under Intrawest.
> 
> But it's better now under Alterra because they moved the park?  Newsflash, the Solstice lift is long and SLOW.  The park rats are for certain mostly lapping it via the Sunbowl 6.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Everyone I have talked to about Stratton including my friend who is a ski patroller there has talked about their deferred maintenance. Ursa has been a complete mess. Garaventa CTEC lifts tend to be reliable, but there is almost always a fault with the lift that they have to override. Also, not true about Solstice. It has seen a lot more ridership this year except during the week when it is closed. Alterra even did a minor refurbishment of the lift over the summer. I am skiing with my friend who is a patroller there tomorrow so I can verify. Look what happened. Stratton was expanding at a rapid rate until the recession. There wasn’t one substantial thing after 2010 that Stratton got. Also after 2010, their maintenance started to really suffer. The South American Quad is a prime example of this. 

I will report back tomorrow to let you know how it was. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Everyone I have talked to about Stratton including my friend who is a ski patroller there has talked about their deferred maintenance. Ursa has been a complete mess. Garaventa CTEC lifts tend to be reliable, but there is almost always a fault with the lift that they have to override. Also, not true about Solstice. It has seen a lot more ridership this year except during the week when it is closed. Alterra even did a minor refurbishment of the lift over the summer. I am skiing with my friend who is a patroller there tomorrow so I can verify. Look what happened. Stratton was expanding at a rapid rate until the recession. There wasn’t one substantial thing after 2010 that Stratton got. Also after 2010, their maintenance started to really suffer. The South American Quad is a prime example of this.
> 
> I will report back tomorrow to let you know how it was.
> 
> ...


Okay. Please do. Very interested in hearing how you'd run it better than Alterra

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay. Please do. Very interested in hearing how you'd run it better than Alterra
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



From what I’ve heard, Alterra is doing pretty well... 


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## WWF-VT (Mar 7, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Looks like a firm and fast day on groomers tomorrow....



Better than expected at Mt Ellen today.  Sunny, a couple of inches of new snow up high and the groomers off North Ridge chair were in great shape and uncrowded.  Ventured down Lower Exterminator and Hammerhead with rocks860 for today's fun runs.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

Fun day at Stratton. Pretty typical eastern conditions with pretty firm conditions. Good mountain operations but the lift maintenance clearly suffered under Intrawest’s ownership. Ursa had a grip force fault all day long. The last time I skied at Stratton was before the Snow Bowl Express and that new lift has completely changed the way the mountain skis. It helps ease crowds at other lifts as well as provide a short 5 minute ride to a lot of terrain on that side of the mountain. The old quad took 13 minutes and while a nice way to escape crowds on a busy day, the new lift is certainly appreciated. 


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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2020)

Was at Lincoln peak today and also better than expected. As noted 2 inches fell over night. Bumps runs skied okay early but we’re scraped later. People were afraid of the woods but they skied well better than the bump runs.
Normal busy time 10-12 but besides that no more than a 3-5 minute wait.
Castle rock had a 17 minute wait ( timed by John Coltrane’s favorite things) around 11. Castle rock lift line skied pretty good today.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Fun day at Stratton. Pretty typical eastern conditions with pretty firm conditions. Good mountain operations but the lift maintenance clearly suffered under Intrawest’s ownership. Ursa had a grip force fault all day long. The last time I skied at Stratton was before the Snow Bowl Express and that new lift has completely changed the way the mountain skis. It helps ease crowds at other lifts as well as provide a short 5 minute ride to a lot of terrain on that side of the mountain. The old quad took 13 minutes and while a nice way to escape crowds on a busy day, the new lift is certainly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alterra has owned Stratton since 2017.  Any deferred maintenance issues at this point falls squarely on them and not Intrawest.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Alterra has owned Stratton since 2017.  Any deferred maintenance issues at this point falls squarely on them and not Intrawest.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Deferred maintenance isn’t exactly something that simply goes away as it has lasting impacts on lifts. While Alterra is doing a better job maintaining them, the lasting effects definitely show. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ursa is replaced soon. It had a mechanical issue later today which caused it to close early and is not in good condition at all. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Deferred maintenance isn’t exactly something that simply goes away as it has lasting impacts on lifts. While Alterra is doing a better job maintaining them, the lasting effects definitely show. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ursa is replaced soon. It had a mechanical issue later today which caused it to close early and is not in good condition at all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course it isn't, but Alterra is into their third season.  It's on them.  You were 11 when Intrawest owned it.  Life experience matters grasshopper.  What you read on some chairlift website doesn't make you some all knowing pro about how the mountain was operated when you were in 5th grade.  Newsflash, there are Stratton regulars on this site.  Some of us have friends who worked there for years in MTN ops.  There literally hasn't been a peep about Intrawest mismanagement of lift maintenance in that time from forum members or employees. 

Ursa was installed in 99.  Not going anywhere for probably five years.  There's been only one HSQ replacement in New England due to age as opposed to increasing capacity.  The Forerunner at Stowe, which was 25 years old and I believe the very first HSQ installed in New England. Sometimes I think you believe ski areas have a blank checkbook with unlimited resources to spend.  Ski areas lose money many seasons; even the best operated ones. 

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## rocks860 (Mar 7, 2020)

Yeah the snow at mount elllen was very nice today, much better than I thought it would be. As @WWF-VT mentioned there was still legit packed powder on some trails there at 2 pm. I skied Lincoln before I met up with him and morning star and castle rock run were quite nice, I was pleasantly surprised. By the time I got back to LP the snow had basically turned to corn between ice patches on a lot of stuff.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

Surprisingly Stratton had very little corn and a lot more firm groomers. Upper Downeaster had to be the iciest trail I have ever skied, at least for this year. Literally no snow on top of complete ice... and a steep pitch. By the end of the day most people were just taking their skis off and sliding down. I wish they would leave a few trails moguled as skiing groomers all day gets boring after awhile. 


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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Slidebrook87 said:


> Surprisingly Stratton had very little corn and a lot more firm groomers. Upper Downeaster had to be the iciest trail I have ever skied, at least for this year. Literally no snow on top of complete ice... and a steep pitch. By the end of the day most people were just taking their skis off and sliding down. I wish they would leave a few trails moguled as skiing groomers all day gets boring after awhile.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Why is that surprising? Everywhere saw a thaw freeze. If you were surprised then you should look at weather reports before going...


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

So I saw this building today and it kind of reminded me what a new Ellen lodge could look like. It would obviously be on a larger scale, but this type of architecture along with larger windows could work very well. A deck could also be built on the front portion. 


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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So I saw this building today and it kind of reminded me what a new Ellen lodge could look like. It would obviously be on a larger scale, but this type of architecture along with larger windows could work very well. A deck could also be built on the front portion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So a barn wow where did you get that idea for sugarbush? Did you suggest clay brook to win as well?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> So a barn wow where did you get that idea for sugarbush? Did you suggest clay brook to win as well?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Similar to Clay Brook but more of a style for a base lodge. This obviously wouldn’t be exactly what I imagine it looking like, but I feel like this sort of modern barn style architecture would work well for the new lodge. 


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## rocks860 (Mar 7, 2020)

Also why is there Stratton discussion here?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

tumbler said:


> We’ll be expecting a full report on their mountain operations.



This is why. There is no dedicated Stratton thread either. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> This is why. There is no dedicated Stratton thread either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


start one. Having the Sugarbush thread get taken over by Stratton discussions will get real annoying, real quick to many people

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> start one. Having the Sugarbush thread get taken over by Stratton discussions will get real annoying, real quick to many people
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



The discussion is basically over now. I just wrote that original comment as a trip report. If there’s enough interest in a Stratton thread I’m create one. 


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## Orca (Mar 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> So a barn wow where did you get that idea for sugarbush? Did you suggest clay brook to win as well?



Does anyone else find Clay Brook hideous? Goofy barn motif with its ridiculous faux silos, and it's totally in the way. Everyone has to walk around the horrible monstrosity to get to the lodge and slopes. It has no use to the general public, unlike say the Cliff at Snowbird that has shops and restaurants. The outdoor pool is in a fishbowl, gawkers walking along the walkway looking down the pool that sees little use but is constantly spilling wasted energy into the atmosphere. Sugarbush would be better off without it.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

Orca said:


> Does anyone else find Clay Brook hideous?



The silo is ridiculously poorly executed, it looks nothing like a farm silo and sticks out like a swollen thumb.  

Remove the rocket ship, errrr, I mean "silo", and I think the building is pleasing to the eye.


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## Newpylong (Mar 8, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Deferred maintenance isn’t exactly something that simply goes away as it has lasting impacts on lifts. While Alterra is doing a better job maintaining them, the lasting effects definitely show. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ursa is replaced soon. It had a mechanical issue later today which caused it to close early and is not in good condition at all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You don't need to replace a lift with high hours, especially  a 6 pack. What you need to do is replace or rebuild vital components - motor, gearbox, controls, comm line, etc.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 8, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> You don't need to replace a lift with high hours, especially  a 6 pack. What you need to do is replace or rebuild vital components - motor, gearbox, controls, comm line, etc.



It’s to the point where there are so many issues with that if one thing is replaced, there’s always going to be another issue with it. Yesterday the gates were broken, there was a grip force fault and another mechanical issue. Half the control systems don’t even work and it’s overall just a mess. Normally I would agree with you on this point, but it’s sort of like Barker where it’s too far to do this. A lift from 1999 shouldn’t be like this, but that’s what poor maintenance will do. Thankfully Alterra has been running it much faster than it used to run. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 8, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> You don't need to replace a lift with high hours, especially  a 6 pack. What you need to do is replace or rebuild vital components - motor, gearbox, controls, comm line, etc.



It’s to the point where there are so many issues with that if one thing is replaced, there’s always going to be another issue with it. Yesterday the gates were broken, there was a grip force fault and another mechanical issue. Half the control systems don’t even work and it’s overall just a mess. Normally I would agree with you on this point, but it’s sort of like Barker where it’s too far to do this. A lift from 1999 shouldn’t be like this, but that’s what poor maintenance will do. Thankfully Alterra has been running it much faster than it used to run. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s to the point where there are so many issues with that if one thing is replaced, there’s always going to be another issue with it. Yesterday the gates were broken, there was a grip force fault and another mechanical issue. Half the control systems don’t even work and it’s overall just a mess. Normally I would agree with you on this point, but it’s sort of like Barker where it’s too far to do this. A lift from 1999 shouldn’t be like this, but that’s what poor maintenance will do. Thankfully Alterra has been running it much faster than it used to run.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In case you are unaware, Newpy is a former ski area GM and has an extensive background in mountain operations.  He quite literally has had his hands in lift maintenance longer than you've been alive.   

Just saying...

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## Hawk (Mar 8, 2020)

Orca said:


> Does anyone else find Clay Brook hideous? Goofy barn motif with its ridiculous faux silos, and it's totally in the way. Everyone has to walk around the horrible monstrosity to get to the lodge and slopes. It has no use to the general public, unlike say the Cliff at Snowbird that has shops and restaurants. The outdoor pool is in a fishbowl, gawkers walking along the walkway looking down the pool that sees little use but is constantly spilling wasted energy into the atmosphere. Sugarbush would be better off without it.



Nope.  We love the design of the Linclon base except for a few things.  It is uniquely Vermont and has it's owe charm.  I think it is easily the nicest looking and coolest base in new England.  Who has a nicer looking base? But being in construction I know there tons of opinions on design and you cant please everybody.  I think Win did a good job.

I think that Mt Ellen if it ever gets redesigned, should also be unique and not the exact same as Lincoln peak.  I think it should be retro and mimic elements that come from that period it came from in the 60's with obviously some new modern things like updated bathrooms and a new kitchen and servery.  Also a large deck is a must over there.


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## Newpylong (Mar 8, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s to the point where there are so many issues with that if one thing is replaced, there’s always going to be another issue with it. Yesterday the gates were broken, there was a grip force fault and another mechanical issue. Half the control systems don’t even work and it’s overall just a mess. Normally I would agree with you on this point, but it’s sort of like Barker where it’s too far to do this. A lift from 1999 shouldn’t be like this, but that’s what poor maintenance will do. Thankfully Alterra has been running it much faster than it used to run.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I do not think it is the same as Barker. Barker is now over 30 years old and is a frankenlift. No one in the region except Killington seems to still be operating these "YOMAs" reliably.

Gates, controls, prime mover with high hours - none of these items warrant a wholescale replacement of a 1999 lift. The steel hasn't gone bad. What they do likely need to do is embark on a fairly capital intensive rebuild. I'm sure it's on their roadmap. Snow Bowl definitely should take the pressure off this lift - I need to get down there some day to ride that.

We should get back to Sugarbush not fair to hijack.


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## slatham (Mar 8, 2020)

Orca said:


> Does anyone else find Clay Brook hideous? Goofy barn motif with its ridiculous faux silos, and it's totally in the way. Everyone has to walk around the horrible monstrosity to get to the lodge and slopes. It has no use to the general public, unlike say the Cliff at Snowbird that has shops and restaurants. The outdoor pool is in a fishbowl, gawkers walking along the walkway looking down the pool that sees little use but is constantly spilling wasted energy into the atmosphere. Sugarbush would be better off without it.



No totally disagree. I find it unique for a base area and very in style with the MRV. Walkway up to right with Farmhouse, Gatehouse, tickets, ski school, drop off etc. all works. I’ve been in the pool/ hot tub many times and people walking by no issue. 

Do we not remember the prior, mish mash of temporary buildings that made up the base area prior?


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## Orca (Mar 8, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Nope.  We love the design of the Linclon base except for a few things.  It is uniquely Vermont and has it's owe charm.  I think it is easily the nicest looking and coolest base in new England.  Who has a nicer looking base? But being in construction I know there tons of opinions on design and you cant please everybody.  I think Win did a good job.
> 
> I think that Mt Ellen if it ever gets redesigned, should also be unique and not the exact same as Lincoln peak.  I think it should be retro and mimic elements that come from that period it came from in the 60's with obviously some new modern things like updated bathrooms and a new kitchen and servery.  Also a large deck is a must over there.



Absolutely agree about the Sugarbush base in general. Just think that Clay Brook itself is poorly sited and could be better looking. No qualms about the other buildings.


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## rocks860 (Mar 8, 2020)

slatham said:


> No totally disagree. I find it unique for a base area and very in style with the MRV. Walkway up to right with Farmhouse, Gatehouse, tickets, ski school, drop off etc. all works. I’ve been in the pool/ hot tub many times and people walking by no issue.
> 
> Do we not remember the prior, mish mash of temporary buildings that made up the base area prior?



Agreed. I remember that old ramshackle base area that looked like a shanty town. I really like the new base area and claybrook


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2020)

The only thing wonky & awful about the Sugarbush base, is the number of stairs.  But I'm not an engineer, so I suspect a better option than the numerous stairs would have cost millions.


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## rocks860 (Mar 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only thing wonky & awful about the Sugarbush base, is the number of stairs.  But I'm not an engineer, so I suspect a better option than the numerous stairs would have cost millions.



Yeah there are a lot of stairs but that probably just bothers me because I’m lazy and out of shape. Although the traffics on said stairs is sometimes kind of a mess due to the people that randomly stop in the middle of them and block everyone’s way


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## WinS (Mar 8, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> Yeah there are a lot of stairs but that probably just bothers me because I’m lazy and out of shape. Although the traffics on said stairs is sometimes kind of a mess due to the people that randomly stop in the middle of them and block everyone’s way
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



One can always walk up Gatehouse Lane.  Same elevation change.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 8, 2020)

I personally love the Lincoln Peak village, but wish there was a better store. The thing I don’t like about it is how lackluster the Ellen base feels compared to it. 


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## tumbler (Mar 8, 2020)

I like the base area and the silo does not bother me. Huge improvement over what was there and it has character. As for stairs, most ski areas have them because you know, it’s a mountain. When I used to ski Ellen all the time I considered the walk from my car up to the base area my warm up run.


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## Smellytele (Mar 8, 2020)

While I like the exterior design of the individual buildings, I am not a fan of the layout of the buildings. Why do we need to walk around a building to get to the lodge. The lodge should be what welcomes me to the mountain not condos.


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## prsboogie (Mar 8, 2020)

Worst stairs ever...Mt Mansfield lodge to the lifts, ugg!

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## mikec142 (Mar 8, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Worst stairs ever...Mt Mansfield lodge to the lifts, ugg!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



Yep!


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 8, 2020)

Tomorrow may unfortunately be Slide Brook’s last day. This means that it would only have run for 38 days this season. 


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## Orca (Mar 8, 2020)

Three observations today:
1. The men's room at Gatehouse is more pleasant than I remember it being before. Not sure exactly what might have changed, but kudos to management. It seems nice, at least inasmuch as a men's room can be.
2. Downspout was fantastic today, whereas for years it has been an icy catastrophe. And this is not the first time this year it as has been good. It was good the last time I skied it. Whatever snowmaking and grooming magic is in play, keep it up.
3. The new bars in the outside CRP and across the way in the courtyard area are a very welcome addition. It was nice to see people outside having a beer in the sun. Glad Sugarbush is capitalizing on the opportunity to make a few more pesos serving cervezas.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2020)

I have a question pertaining to the IKON Pass Benefits.  On the front page for the full IKON pass it mentions 10 tickets for Friends and Family with no percent discount so I would read that as 10 tickets for free.  When you click on the details link it says 25% off.  Is it 10 Free tickets or 10 at 25%.  Just wondering.  The other thing I was thinking is that if you pre-purchase your tickets on line in advance isn't the discount more than 25%?  That would kind of negate the whole idea of that benefit wouldn't it?


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## Zermatt (Mar 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I have a question pertaining to the IKON Pass Benefits.  On the front page for the full IKON pass it mentions 10 tickets for Friends and Family with no percent discount so I would read that as 10 tickets for free.  When you click on the details link it says 25% off.  Is it 10 Free tickets or 10 at 25%.  Just wondering.  The other thing I was thinking is that if you pre-purchase your tickets on line in advance isn't the discount more than 25%?  That would kind of negate the whole idea of that benefit wouldn't it?




It's 10 25% off tickets. And it's 25% off the full window price


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2020)

Hmm.  I just went on line to the on line tickets. If I buy my ticket even a couple days in advance the lowest discount is 25% on Saturdays and anywhere from 30 to 45% any other day.  That does not seem like much of a benefit.  Just sayin.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Hmm.  I just went on line to the on line tickets. If I buy my ticket even a couple days in advance the lowest discount is 25% on Saturdays and anywhere from 30 to 45% any other day.  That does not seem like much of a benefit.  Just sayin.



Yeah, they'll want you to spend extra time and jump thru more hoops to find better discounts. They are betting on that most folks will only want to deal with it once and be done with it.


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Hmm.  I just went on line to the on line tickets. If I buy my ticket even a couple days in advance the lowest discount is 25% on Saturdays and anywhere from 30 to 45% any other day.  That does not seem like much of a benefit.  Just sayin.



Agreed...I don't really understand the point of that benefit either if you can for the most part already get online tickets in advance for the same or even cheaper. Only real benefit is for a last minute decision I guess when the online price would be a smaller discount.


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## jaybird (Mar 9, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Tomorrow may unfortunately be Slide Brook’s last day. This means that it would only have run for 38 days this season.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Our Sunday Slidebrook journey was by far the most enjoyable 40 tower excursion we've taken this season. Everything both sides was mint. Most particularly .. even late afternoon on Sigi's and Spillsville was fully carve-able and completely uncluttered. Cotilion woods was decent. Courtyard was packed and the Jitney was quite busy all day. We spotted a moose in the gulch as we headed south late afternoon.


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## WinS (Mar 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Hmm.  I just went on line to the on line tickets. If I buy my ticket even a couple days in advance the lowest discount is 25% on Saturdays and anywhere from 30 to 45% any other day.  That does not seem like much of a benefit.  Just sayin.



You are correct in that sense. However, what is does offer is the flexibility of not having to do it ahead of time. Also not all Ikon Resort have the same ticket pricing schedules and this is good at all Ikon Resorts.  I think the benefit that you might enjoy the most is the 15% F&B discount. For the frequent skier that adds up.


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## WinS (Mar 9, 2020)

Orca said:


> Three observations today:
> 1. The men's room at Gatehouse is more pleasant than I remember it being before. Not sure exactly what might have changed, but kudos to management. It seems nice, at least inasmuch as a men's room can be.
> 2. Downspout was fantastic today, whereas for years it has been an icy catastrophe. And this is not the first time this year it as has been good. It was good the last time I skied it. Whatever snowmaking and grooming magic is in play, keep it up.
> 3. The new bars in the outside CRP and across the way in the courtyard area are a very welcome addition. It was nice to see people outside having a beer in the sun. Glad Sugarbush is capitalizing on the opportunity to make a few more pesos serving cervezas.




The floor, the safety posters and the paper towel dispensers are the only thing that has changed in the Men's Room. Glad you like the Courtyard. It is getting great use in all seasons.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 9, 2020)

Win, what happened to North Ridge today? Anything due to the tensioning system? There has been a severe lack of tension ever since I first rode it. I also know that the chain driven contours and spacing systems can be complex on these vintage Poma Competition lifts.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2020)

WinS said:


> You are correct in that sense. However, what is does offer is the flexibility of not having to do it ahead of time. Also not all Ikon Resort have the same ticket pricing schedules and this is good at all Ikon Resorts.  I think the benefit that you might enjoy the most is the 15% F&B discount. For the frequent skier that adds up.



i didn't think about the other Ikon resorts.  That is a good point and might come in handy.  I will definitely use the 15% discount on the F&B.


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## Smellytele (Mar 9, 2020)

WinS said:


> You are correct in that sense. However, what is does offer is the flexibility of not having to do it ahead of time. Also not all Ikon Resort have the same ticket pricing schedules and this is good at all Ikon Resorts.  I think the benefit that you might enjoy the most is the 15% F&B discount. For the frequent *Eater* that adds up.



Fixed it...


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## 1dog (Mar 9, 2020)

Especially for you SB87

https://www.facebook.com/BenPhillipsUK/videos/3291058380923442/

Crazy - 

Bush was great this weekend - except I couldn't renew my nor my sons eason passes at desk - I tried online - couldn't get both early season discounts - fellow was very nice, said to call instead - problem is I leave my pass in our jacket sleeve zips - so I do not have the #'s.

Hope they can look them up.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 9, 2020)

that guy laying still and face down under the massive pile of chairs is prob in great shape.'

the people who hang from their fingers and then drop in the soft snow at the lowest point are smart. 

in communist russia, chair lift you!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2020)

Wasn’t that video from a few years ago?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 9, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Wasn’t that video from a few years ago?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It was. I believe it was blamed on both poor maintenance and operator failure. 


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd personally be a bit disappointed to see Ellen with flashy new base facilities. I do think it would negatively impact the character that makes ME so cool today.



agreed. I ski mid week so i don't deal with the weekend crowd. the 1 time I have skied a sunday there, the racer families were there and it was a pain but we ( me, wife, 2 kids 8 and 10) got changed downstairs and got a table for lunch.  later in the day, we came in and me and the wife got seats next to the fireplace while kids did a few last runs in the terrain park. good times.

One thing about ME lodge- its crampedness kinda forces comradery between the people in it, at least in my experience. everyone has to work together to get everyone seated when its lunchtime. I've seen some cool interactions among people there, just helping each other out to make the most of it.

i also just like the place, the feel and character of it. same with walts. I'll miss the old walts when its gone but more space will be nice.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> My family (3 kids and a wife) boot up in the parking lot unless the weather says otherwise - cold and wind. Learned when the kids were young that it was a PIA to carry all their shit up their and we stuck with it. They see people carrying shit in and laugh at them now.
> 
> And agree with KtK about the places I love.



this is why my kids got backpacks as soon as they were physically capable of handing them, and learned to carry their own skis just as early. 

 my mantra: I'm your dad, not your butler. So, carry your own stuff. I now have completely self sufficient 8 and 10 years old kids. 

we also get in the lodge at least 30 minutes before the lifts start so that helps as well.

I also just hate doing it at the car, but to each his own.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> agreed. I ski mid week so i don't deal with the weekend crowd. the 1 time I have skied a sunday there, the racer families were there and it was a pain but we ( me, wife, 2 kids 8 and 10) got changed downstairs and got a table for lunch.  later in the day, we came in and me and the wife got seats next to the fireplace while kids did a few last runs in the terrain park. good times.
> 
> One thing about ME lodge- its crampedness kinda forces comradery between the people in it, at least in my experience. everyone has to work together to get everyone seated when its lunchtime. I've seen some cool interactions among people there, just helping each other out to make the most of it.
> 
> i also just like the place, the feel and character of it. same with walts. I'll miss the old walts when its gone but more space will be nice.



I see what you mean, but to me it's not a preservation of character and instead just a lack of investment. Other than GMX in 2002, Ellen really hasn't seen much investment. If the current lodge was tastefully refurbished then I would think differently about it. I typically only get to ski one or two midweek days at Sugarbush. So far it has only been one midweek day and Slide Brook was closed so I didn't ski Ellen. I don't think anything about the new base facilities would be flashy. Nothing about the Gate House lodge screams flashy to me, and a new Ellen lodge probably wouldn't be as big as that. As some have mentioned, it would be a good idea for architects to use current design elements such as the deck, fireplace, etc. A small courtyard should probably be added where the current unused ticket booth is. I'll create a simple drawing of the footprint of the new lodge. About a year ago I made a sketchup representation of what a new mid mountain lodge and Heaven's Gate terminal combined could look like. I'll try to attach a photo of it.


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## Greg (Mar 10, 2020)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> this is why my kids got backpacks as soon as they were physically capable of handing them, and learned to carry their own skis just as early.
> 
> my mantra: I'm your dad, not your butler. So, carry your own stuff. I now have completely self sufficient 8 and 10 years old kids.
> 
> ...



This. The boot backpacks are critical for kids. It actually makes them enjoy carrying their stuff. I also try to get to the lodge early and boot up leisurely. Will boot up at the car if the weather is nice, but generally don't like to.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

This is a very simple approximation of how I would design a new Ellen base.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 10, 2020)

Win, will quad passes be available next year? was looking at the new pass prices and saw no mention of them. thx!


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> View attachment 26535
> 
> This is a very simple approximation of how I would design a new Ellen base.



You forgot about the new adaptive building.  I think that is going mess up your plan


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You forgot about the new adaptive building.  I think that is going mess up your plan



It would be on the bottom floor of the right side of the lodge in the photo. Bathrooms would be on level two with two single person restrooms for the adaptive facility on the lower level. 


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

That is already in the works.  I doubt they would build it and then rip it down.  It will have to be incorporated into any future design.


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## Smellytele (Mar 10, 2020)

Sb87 You mention unused ticket booth. It is actually used. I got my tickets there the last 2 times I skied Ellen 


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## prsboogie (Mar 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Sb87 You mention unused ticket booth. It is actually used. I got my tickets there the last 2 times I skied Ellen
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Do you keep the RFID cards? You can just reload them if you buy ahead and go direct to the lifts

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> That is already in the works.  I doubt they would build it and then rip it down.  It will have to be incorporated into any future design.



Win said that they anticipate a new Ellen lodge some time in the next 10 years. I do agree that it seems odd that they would do this small expansion matching the architecture of the old lodge only to tear it down.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Sb87 You mention unused ticket booth. It is actually used. I got my tickets there the last 2 times I skied Ellen
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Interesting. Whenever I have gone it looks abandoned. Maybe I just missed it.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87,

I admire your enthusiasm.  However, you neglected to answer my earlier question.  How much more would you be willing to pay in order to have an updated ME lodge?  Capital expenditure decisions are not made in a vacuum.  They have to be analyzed, prioritized, and planned.  There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis.  Does the return on investment make sense now and in the future?


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## Smellytele (Mar 10, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Do you keep the RFID cards? You can just reload them if you buy ahead and go direct to the lifts
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



I went during a snow storm a few Thursdays ago so wanted to make sure I got there before spending my $30 per ticket. 


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2020)

Kinda bummed and looking for input.  I mentioned earlier that I tore a calf muscle on Super Bowl Sunday and have been on the IR since then.  I got the go ahead from the doctor to ski this weekend.  I have one quad pack ticket left and 3 days left on my ski vermont four pack (one of which is good at SB).  I'd love to ski at SB this weekend, and usually I'm fine with making the 5.5 hour drive, but if the conditions are bad and I'm just coming back from injury so probably sticking to groomers, I'm having a hard time justifying the drive.  I don't want to eat the four tix I have left, but I also don't want to incur the expense and time away of the weekend if the conditions suck.  Thoughts?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Slidebrook87,
> 
> I admire your enthusiasm.  However, you neglected to answer my earlier question.  How much more would you be willing to pay in order to have an updated ME lodge?  Capital expenditure decisions are not made in a vacuum.  They have to be analyzed, prioritized, and planned.  There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis.  Does the return on investment make sense now and in the future?



Investments are not necessarily something that drives up a ticket price. A ticket price may increase slightly over time. Building a new base lodge won’t exactly make the ticket price shoot up a certain amount of money. This new base area would be something that I would expect to happen some time in the next 10 years. Right now the ROI might not be there, but within 5-10 years it might be a more feasible investment. It’s similar to how Win waited 5 years before doing the Lincoln base area development. With Alterra owning Sugarbush now, they can get better deals on certain things. They have more power to make deals with the state than Win did, but either way Vermont will never be an easy state to do business in. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

kid plays a lot of roller coaster tycoon and fancies himself a ski resort CEO. cute (but really not at all, just annoying).


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Investments are not necessarily something that drives up a ticket price. A ticket price may increase slightly over time. Building a new base lodge won’t exactly make the ticket price shoot up a certain amount of money. This new base area would be something that I would expect to happen some time in the next 10 years. Right now the ROI might not be there, but within 5-10 years it might be a more feasible investment. It’s similar to how Win waited 5 years before doing the Lincoln base area development. With Alterra owning Sugarbush now, they can get better deals on certain things. They have more power to make deals with the state than Win did, but either way Vermont will never be an easy state to do business in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I understand your point, but I still think you're missing mine.  It's a business.  And while it would be awesome if SB had the ability to invest unlimited dollars and stay in business, that's not how it works.  The goal of a business is to make money not lose it. 

Any capital expenditure has to be paid for somehow.  How would you propose that SB finances the renovation of the ME lodge?

Again, I admire your enthusiasm, but if we are to have a serious conversation about the future of Sugarbush, we should inject some sense of reality into the process.

Let me ask you this, what sort of return would SB get from a renovated lodge?  To be clear, it needs to be functional, safe, clean, etc. so if anything needs to be done on that end, it has to happen.  But renovating just to renovate and provide a nicer lodge experience isn't going to generate additional dollars.  Maybe if they could build homes at the base or host weddings, etc.  So, again, what's the return on investment?


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## slatham (Mar 10, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Kinda bummed and looking for input.  I mentioned earlier that I tore a calf muscle on Super Bowl Sunday and have been on the IR since then.  I got the go ahead from the doctor to ski this weekend.  I have one quad pack ticket left and 3 days left on my ski vermont four pack (one of which is good at SB).  I'd love to ski at SB this weekend, and usually I'm fine with making the 5.5 hour drive, but if the conditions are bad and I'm just coming back from injury so probably sticking to groomers, I'm having a hard time justifying the drive.  I don't want to eat the four tix I have left, but I also don't want to incur the expense and time away of the weekend if the conditions suck.  Thoughts?



Doubtful there is any new snow to warrant the trip north. If anything, further south will be warmer/softer.


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## MorningWoods (Mar 10, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I understand your point, but I still think you're missing mine.  It's a business.  And while it would be awesome if SB had the ability to invest unlimited dollars and stay in business, that's not how it works.  The goal of a business is to make money not lose it.
> 
> Any capital expenditure has to be paid for somehow.  How would you propose that SB finances the renovation of the ME lodge?
> 
> ...



Weddings. More skier visits at north. Expanded GML. Maybe move MTB to north where they have more flexibility with trails etc. so summer income potential. I actually think you can more easily stick a ROI on this vs snowmaking. I’m not saying that snowmaking is not needed, just easier to measure a ROI. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I understand your point, but I still think you're missing mine.  It's a business.  And while it would be awesome if SB had the ability to invest unlimited dollars and stay in business, that's not how it works.  The goal of a business is to make money not lose it.
> 
> Any capital expenditure has to be paid for somehow.  How would you propose that SB finances the renovation of the ME lodge?
> 
> ...



I understand your point here but I would compare this to the Lincoln base area. Look how much of an improvement it has been for that side of the mountain. To be honest there’s a reason most people start their day over there. I can only predict that the new Ellen base would be just as popular with guests. At some point those base facilities need to be upgraded similarly to how Lincoln’s were upgraded. To answer your question, there really is no huge return, but it will help spread out crowds and generally improve that side of the mountain. Most “Sugarbush” skiers only stick to Lincoln. I don’t know the official numbers but when Slide Brook isn’t running I imagine that 85% of Lincoln skiers stay at Lincoln and when it is running I predict that around 65-70% of Lincoln skiers stay at Lincoln. Most Ellen skiers stay at Ellen as it is their goal to escape crowds on weekends. These are also local people that aren’t only able to ski for one day. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Another point I forgot to mention is that more Ikon skiers will mean even more traffic at the main base “Lincoln”. The Gate House Lodge can often become a mess so having an extra base for weekend traffic that doesn’t mean a small, crowded and dingy lodge would definelty help spread out crowds. I think you would be surprised as to what a new Ellen lodge and restored connection could do to improve skier flow. 


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## MorningWoods (Mar 10, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Weddings. More skier visits at north. Expanded GML. Maybe move MTB to north where they have more flexibility with trails etc. so summer income potential. I actually think you can more easily stick a ROI on this vs snowmaking. I’m not saying that snowmaking is not needed, just easier to measure a ROI.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And Alterra just announced their capex plans. The largest share is base area improvements. Why do you think that is?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> And Alterra just announced their capex plans. The largest share is base area improvements. Why do you think that is?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Still nothing about Sugarbush on those plans... I do think that since they’re prioritizing lodging will mean the same for Sugarbush. 


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I do think that since they’re prioritizing lodging will mean the same for Sugarbush.



Lodging in general - yes, as that was already stated by Win as one of the 3 main priorities (but not this year for reasons already stated). That still doesn't mean a new ME base lodge is anywhere near the top of that lodging list though...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Food for thought SlideBrook, I imagine a very high percentage Mt Ellen skiers absolutely do not want more Lincoln skiers to migrate over to Ellen.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to find places to escape crowds at major Northeast ski areas.  Mt Ellen is a rarity.  I know I wouldn't want Mt Ellen to become a lot busier with the only benefit of having Lincoln be a little less crowded.  I'd just assume Sugarbush keep Lincoln the cash cow capturing the tourist revenue and Mt Ellen stay almost exactly as is as a respite from the madness. 

Down the road at Killington many skiers feel the same way about Pico and are decidedly against an Interconnect that would ruin the uncrowded experience Pico provides.  

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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

agreed completely. i'd blow up slidebrook lift if i could.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> agreed completely. i'd blow up slidebrook lift if i could.


No way bro.  Make SlideBrook two stages and have it run all the way to MRG. Connect the whole valley!  Put a fancy mid mountain Lodge in at MRG with a Waffle Hut.  Think of all the weddings they could host!  Retire the Single chair for a HSQ.  Do it all with only minor increases in pass prices!

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## WinS (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I see what you mean, but to me it's not a preservation of character and instead just a lack of investment. Other than GMX in 2002, Ellen really hasn't seen much investment. If the current lodge was tastefully refurbished then I would think differently about it. I typically only get to ski one or two midweek days at Sugarbush. So far it has only been one midweek day and Slide Brook was closed so I didn't ski Ellen. I don't think anything about the new base facilities would be flashy. Nothing about the Gate House lodge screams flashy to me, and a new Ellen lodge probably wouldn't be as big as that. As some have mentioned, it would be a good idea for architects to use current design elements such as the deck, fireplace, etc. A small courtyard should probably be added where the current unused ticket booth is. I'll create a simple drawing of the footprint of the new lodge. About a year ago I made a sketchup representation of what a new mid mountain lodge and Heaven's Gate terminal combined could look like. I'll try to attach a photo of it.



Slidebrook87, you know a lot  but really do not know ,so I would encourage you to be careful of some uniformed comments. We are happy to speak with you in person and answer any questions you might have and help you better understand how a business operates and how decisions are made and prioritized. As far as your comment about lack of investment in ME that is very uniformed.  There have been significant investments in snowmaking equipment including low energy towers and guns on all trails, two new compressors, refreshed grooming fleet, new Sunny-Q lift, new drive and communication and tower wiring line for Northridge, many new park features, Walt's Restaurant in the Glen House and additional snowmaking motor in the pond pump house, new kitchen for Green Mountain Lounge which allowed expansion of the menu there, road paving.  Those investment are in the millions.


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2020)

Kitchen for the GML was a great call the burgers are top notch!


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Food for thought SlideBrook, I imagine a very high percentage Mt Ellen skiers absolutely do not want more Lincoln skiers to migrate over to Ellen.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to find places to escape crowds at major Northeast ski areas.  Mt Ellen is a rarity.  I know I wouldn't want Mt Ellen to become a lot busier with the only benefit of having Lincoln be a little less crowded.  I'd just assume Sugarbush keep Lincoln the cash cow capturing the tourist revenue and Mt Ellen stay almost exactly as is as a respite from the madness.



I've been trying to hint at this without outright coming out and saying it for fear of looking a bit selfish. But count me in the group that honestly has no desire to see more people at ME.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

the lodge is crappy and old and can't handle current weekend capacity, but beyond making hte lodge more comfortable i dont want to see mount ellen change or take on more people. i hope most ikon-ers dont even know it exists.


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> View attachment 26535
> 
> This is a very simple approximation of how I would design a new Ellen base.



Holy crap that thing is a monster!  Way too big.  Where would the racers be able to leave their skis strewn all over the ground?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Food for thought SlideBrook, I imagine a very high percentage Mt Ellen skiers absolutely do not want more Lincoln skiers to migrate over to Ellen.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to find places to escape crowds at major Northeast ski areas.  Mt Ellen is a rarity.  I know I wouldn't want Mt Ellen to become a lot busier with the only benefit of having Lincoln be a little less crowded.  I'd just assume Sugarbush keep Lincoln the cash cow capturing the tourist revenue and Mt Ellen stay almost exactly as is as a respite from the madness.
> 
> Down the road at Killington many skiers feel the same way about Pico and are decidedly against an Interconnect that would ruin the uncrowded experience Pico provides.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



It’s one resort though not two like Pico and Killington. I would never consider myself a “Lincoln skier” or an “Ellen skier”. I consider myself a Sugarbush skier. When you look at the trail map you see two mountain areas connected by a high speed quad. There aren’t two separate trail maps and two separate brandings. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s one resort though not two like Pico and Killington. I would never consider myself a “Lincoln skier” or an “Ellen skier”. I consider myself a Sugarbush skier. When you look at the trail map you see two mountain areas connected by a high speed quad. There aren’t two separate trail maps and two separate brandings.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The comparison is apt.  Pre-slidebrook both mountains were on the same map.  The chair didn't change anything in that regard. Again there are a number of Pico skiers that don't want an Interconnect and the crowds it will bring.  There are plenty of Killington regulars who ski Pico on Saturdays to avoid crowds and they don't want to see the Interconnect.  It's been many years, but when I had a pass at Sugarbush, I spent Saturdays at Ellen almost exclusively. 

As for branding? I bet less than 5% of existing passholders give a shit about that.    

If you prefer the more posh experience, Lincoln is right there for you.  You don't have to have that level of services at all mountain locations. 



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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

Isn't that a little selfish Slidebrook?  DHS crafted a very well thought out explanation for you about the locals and the culture over there and you basically crapped on the North skiers and said it was all about what you want.  Personally it baffles me how many North skiers come on here and say, "Ya come on over to North there is no on here!"   I wouldn't go there.  Much like I wouldn't tell people to come into the woods where I ski.  Actually that is a little selfish also.  But your selfish is worse than my selfish.  lol....


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> The comparison is apt.  Pre-slidebrook both mountains were on the same map.  The chair didn't change anything in that regard. Again there are a number of Pico skiers that don't want an Interconnect and the crowds it will bring.  There are plenty of Killington regulars who ski Pico on Saturdays to avoid crowds and they don't want to see the Interconnect.  It's been many years, but when I had a pass at Sugarbush, I spent Saturdays at Ellen almost exclusively.
> 
> As for branding? I bet less than 5% of existing passholders give a shit about that.
> 
> ...



We should do a poll on who likes North the way it is and who wants to trick it out like Lincoln.  I bet I know the results.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Ellen isn’t exactly a private mountain and the attitude that it is a “local’s mountain” is quite bothersome to me. Sugarbush is one resort, not two separate mountains and because of this it shouldn’t be treated like two mountains with completely different kinds of people at each side. I don’t think I’m being selfish at all, rather it’s the people at Ellen that get frustrated when people from Lincoln ski there that are selfish. 


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ellen isn’t exactly a private mountain and the attitude that it is a “local’s mountain” is quite bothersome to me. Sugarbush is one resort, not two separate mountains and because of this it shouldn’t be treated like two mountains with completely different kinds of people at each side. I don’t think I’m being selfish at all, rather it’s the people at Ellen that get frustrated when people from Lincoln ski there that are selfish.



You're heading down a slippery slope. Pissing off the locals is a BIG mistake for a business to make. 

"More Rock, Less Otten" would be just one example of what happens when you try to do something that causes outrage from the locals...


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## Domeskier (Mar 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Pissing off the locals is a BIG mistake for a business to make.



Helping isolated "locals" overcome the xenophobia and other negative attributes inherent in their simian heritage is one of the better things a business (or anyone else who cares about the future of humanity) can do.


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## Orca (Mar 10, 2020)

What language is spoken at Ellen? Is it an old Vermont dialect of farmer's pidgin English?

We all know that received pronunciation English is de rigueur at the posh Lincoln.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Weddings. More skier visits at north. Expanded GML. Maybe move MTB to north where they have more flexibility with trails etc. so summer income potential. I actually think you can more easily stick a ROI on this vs snowmaking. I’m not saying that snowmaking is not needed, just easier to measure a ROI.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



MorningWoods,

I agree with you that you can make a ROI case for the lodge.  As far as snowmaking...the ROI is very apparent.  Without it, there is no winter business.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> You're heading down a slippery slope. Pissing off the locals is a BIG mistake for a business to make.
> 
> "More Rock, Less Otten" would be just one example of what happens when you try to do something that causes outrage from the locals...



But mountains are also running a business... More rock less Otten is much different than improving base facilities and trying to spread out crowds. News flash, you buy a ticket for Sugarbush and get to ski both sides. There’s not any restriction that in any way should prevent skiers from skiing where they want to ski. 


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ellen isn’t exactly a private mountain and the attitude that it is a “local’s mountain” is quite bothersome to me. Sugarbush is one resort, not two separate mountains and because of this it shouldn’t be treated like two mountains with completely different kinds of people at each side. I don’t think I’m being selfish at all, rather it’s the people at Ellen that get frustrated when people from Lincoln ski there that are selfish.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The problem is that you don't understand the culture or the traditions.  You are young and inexperienced and brash and whan everything easy and your way.  But some things are hard.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The problem is that you don't understand the culture or the traditions.  You are young and inexperienced and brash and whan everything easy and your way.  But some things are hard.



You know that you can maintain traditions while still building a new base lodge right? Why are you complaining about an obvious fact that you have known for years: Sugarbush is one resort with one lift ticket. Mountains are in business to make money and that means that they can’t keep that tiny lodge forever. It will have to go at some point. Why was there no backlash against the Lincoln village even though both base areas are at the same resort? I don’t know. 


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

Also, the people at Ellen are some of the most pleasant and kind at Sugarbush.  I have never had any issues over there, only good times and good people.  They have never had an issue with people coming over.  They have issues with people saying that their mountain is not good enough and it should be changed.  Now some change is good but homogenization is not what is needed.


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

You know, I don't know why I am arguing about this.  They are never going to to anything.  At least no time soon so keep wishing.  That will be the fact Jack!


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Sugarbush is one resort with one lift ticket.



Not entirely accurate. There IS a separate ME only ticket.



Hawk said:


> Also, the people at Ellen are some of the most pleasant and kind at Sugarbush.  I have never had any issues over there, only good times and good people.  They have never had an issue with people coming over.  They have issues with people saying that their mountain is not good enough and it should be changed.  Now some change is good but homogenization is not what is needed.



Agreed 100%. ME has a nice laid-back vibe. SB87 may find this hard to believe, but that character actually appeals to certain people. If you turn ME into LP 2.0, you may "spread people out", but you'll also lose some people that like ME for ME (and could also see the sales of the ME season passes decline as a result). So ultimately you have a net gain of 0, spent millions, and now have pissed off some locals. Doesn't sound like a particularly good decision for a business.

And you're absolutely right that you can make some changes to improve things without going anywhere near to the degree of what was done at LP. Smaller, gradual upgrades would go over just fine. LP 2.0 would not.



Hawk said:


> You know, I don't know why I am arguing about this.  They are never going to to anything.  At least no time soon so keep wishing.  That will be the fact Jack!



Hah...so true!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

The slopes are more crowded and get skied off quicker, the lift lines are longer but look at this nice courtyard where I can sit and relax and have my hot cocoa. They also got them fancy waterless urinals that don't even need cakes!  Ahhh progress

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## bdfreetuna (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Sugarbush is one resort with one lift ticket.



It's obviously 2 ski areas that are loosely connected and down the road from each other owned by the same establishment. Technically you can ski both in one day if you pay the high price for both/Lincoln but most people, most of the time, will see no need to do so.

The one lift ticket concept is a scam on those skiing Lincoln Peak / South as has already been discussed.


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## Orca (Mar 10, 2020)

Yes, the locals feel quite comfortable in their ramshackle barn-like lodge. It reminds them of their homes minus the hay on the floor. They simply don't have the taste or appreciation for anything of refinement. Best the unwashed know their place, and we ought let them be.


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## urungus (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> But mountains are also running a business... More rock less Otten is much different than improving base facilities and trying to spread out crowds.



I’m sure Otten thought his plans for Castle Rock were an improvement.  Sometimes things don’t need to be “improved”.


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2020)

Orca said:


> Yes, the locals feel quite comfortable in their ramshackle barn-like lodge. It reminds them of their homes minus the hay on the floor. They simply don't have the taste or appreciation for anything of refinement. Best the unwashed know their place, and we ought let them be.


Hey my ramshackle home is quite nice and cozy even with the sap buckets collecting the leaks when it rains.  I also appreciate refinement.  My still does a fine job refining for my moonshine. Ha!


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> But mountains are also running a business... More rock less Otten is much different than improving base facilities and trying to spread out crowds. News flash, you buy a ticket for Sugarbush and get to ski both sides. There’s not any restriction that in any way should prevent skiers from skiing where they want to ski.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



News flash on running a business.  Not building a new lodge costs a lot less and has significantly higher ROI than building a new one when it is not needed.  Breaking news- contrary to what you think, ski areas have a very difficult time making money.  Reread Win's diplomatic post to you every time you start to post about how you know it all.


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## Orca (Mar 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Hey my ramshackle home is quite nice and cozy even with the sap buckets collecting the leaks when it rains.  I also appreciate refinement.  My still does a fine job refining for my moonshine. Ha!



Did someone hear and animal braying?


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## Orca (Mar 10, 2020)

This weekend looks a little awful. Wet lead up then freeze. Any thoughts?



(Clip from TOP OF WEST HILL STATION)


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Orca said:


> This weekend looks a little awful. Wet lead up then freeze. Any thoughts?



Pretty accurate assessment based on current data...but then again I also thought last weekend might suck and was pleasantly surprised. So I'll be there even if it just means a few runs on firm groomers before calling it quits.


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## djd66 (Mar 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> If you turn ME into LP 2.0, you may "spread people out", but you'll also lose some people that like ME for ME (and could also see the sales of the ME season passes decline as a result). So ultimately you have a net gain of 0, spent millions, and now have pissed off some locals. Doesn't sound like a particularly good decision for a business.



So just so I understand,... you think if they upgrade the Lodge it will piss off locals so much that they won't come to Sugarbush?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

i think thats a hyperbolic interpretation of his post. his point was that if sugarbush under alterra takes steps to significantly develop mount ellen (not just the base lodge upgrade, which is needed, but also things like putting lodging, restaurants, spas, etc there), then they risk losing a significant chunk of their business, who would say fuck this shit and go to mad river glen or bolton, because lots of us prefer the old fashioned experience.


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think thats a hyperbolic interpretation of his post. his point was that if sugarbush under alterra takes steps to significantly develop mount ellen (not just the base lodge upgrade, which is needed, but also things like putting lodging, restaurants, spas, etc there), then they risk losing a significant chunk of their business, who would say fuck this shit and go to mad river glen or bolton, because lots of us prefer the old fashioned experience.



Thank you...yes...exactly this.

In the same post that djd quoted, I also said the following which should have made the point pretty clear that I'm not against ALL changes. They just need to be smaller in scale and maintain the character of ME to distinguish it from LP.



cdskier said:


> you can make some changes to improve things without going anywhere near to the degree of what was done at LP. Smaller, gradual upgrades would go over just fine. LP 2.0 would not.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think thats a hyperbolic interpretation of his post. his point was that if sugarbush under alterra takes steps to significantly develop mount ellen (not just the base lodge upgrade, which is needed, but also things like putting lodging, restaurants, spas, etc there), then they risk losing a significant chunk of their business, who would say fuck this shit and go to mad river glen or bolton, because lots of us prefer the old fashioned experience.



True, but I don’t think anybody explicitly mentioned anything other than a new lodge and small courtyard. I think that was assumed from an “Ellen base upgrade”. To be clear I think that Ellen needs a new base lodge using design elements similar to the Lincoln base while still retaining features like the deck of the current lodge. A small courtyard and bar on weekends would also be ideal as a gathering place. Think of it as a slightly scaled down version of the Lincoln base minus Clay Brook, the Schoolhouse and the Farmhouse. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

too much. make the existing lodge bigger. replace plastic folding tables and chairs with higher end furnishings. thats it. nothing else. 

stay at lincoln peak with your fake silo.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think thats a hyperbolic interpretation of his post. his point was that if sugarbush under alterra takes steps to significantly develop mount ellen (not just the base lodge upgrade, which is needed, but also things like putting lodging, restaurants, spas, etc there), then they risk losing a significant chunk of their business, who would say fuck this shit and go to mad river glen or bolton, because lots of us prefer the old fashioned experience.


Bingo 

I used to be the biggest Stowe homer you would ever meet.  I detest what they've done to the place.  I spent my winter vacation there this year with the family.  We will be back slumming it at Wildcat and Black next season.  I still do love the terrain at Stowe and will continue to visit occasionally , especially because of Epic.  But overall I miss what it was.  You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube though.  

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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> True, but I don’t think anybody explicitly mentioned anything other than a new lodge and small courtyard. I think that was assumed from an “Ellen base upgrade”. To be clear I think that Ellen needs a new base lodge using design elements similar to the Lincoln base while still retaining features like the deck of the current lodge. A small courtyard and bar on weekends would also be ideal as a gathering place. Think of it as a slightly scaled down version of the Lincoln base minus Clay Brook, the Schoolhouse and the Farmhouse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The thing is though, most of the time ski areas look at such a thing and say, "Ya know what? Why are we upgrading the lodge with operations profit from the ski area when we can finance it with the proceeds from real estate sales?"

And then you get Claybrook 2.0

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## djd66 (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think thats a hyperbolic interpretation of his post. his point was that if sugarbush under alterra takes steps to significantly develop mount ellen (not just the base lodge upgrade, which is needed, but also things like putting lodging, restaurants, spas, etc there), then they risk losing a significant chunk of their business, who would say fuck this shit and go to mad river glen or bolton, because lots of us prefer the old fashioned experience.



Sorry, I don’t buy it.

Long lines at MRG
No snow making at MRG 

As much as everyone loves MRG, the place is not sustainable in the long term.


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## urungus (Mar 10, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Sorry, I don’t buy it.
> 
> Long lines at MRG
> No snow making at MRG
> ...



MRG has snowmaking


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## jaytrem (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube though.



Actually you can, and it's really not that hard to do.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

yes, the skier owned, passionately loved, national historic landmark, in it's 70th+ year of operation, is bound to fail. ok guy.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Actually you can, and it's really not that hard to do.


Burn Spruce Peak Village to the ground and return Stowe to it's former self?  I mean sure, starting a fire isn't all that difficult

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## Tonyr (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Burn Spruce Peak Village to the ground and return Stowe to it's former self?  I mean sure, starting a fire isn't all that difficult
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



The lodge at spruce peak is one of the best ski in/ski out hotels in the country. Its certainly tops on the east coast.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Tonyr said:


> The lodge at spruce peak is one of the best ski in/ski out hotels in the country. Its certainly tops on the east coast.


It is a monstrosity that's totally out of place.  F that lodge, club and village.  Stowe was a hard core skiers mountain with little fluff pre-Spruce.  It's now Disney Vermont. 

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> It is a monstrosity that's totally out of place.  F that lodge, club and village.  Stowe was a hard core skiers mountain with little fluff pre-Spruce.  It's now Disney Vermont.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



But has it been successful? Yes. They are running a business after all. I definitely see your point, but it is more than just that development that has “ruined” Stowe. There will always be hardcore skiers’ mountains like smuggs, MRG, etc, but since Stowe was owned by AIG, something like that was bound to happen. 


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## Orca (Mar 10, 2020)

Add homeless people and the Ellen base lodge has all the charm of an overcrowded, squirming NY subway station.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> But has it been successful? Yes. They are running a business after all. I definitely see your point, but it is more than just that development that has “ruined” Stowe. There will always be hardcore skiers’ mountains like smuggs, MRG, etc, but since Stowe was owned by AIG, something like that was bound to happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oil refineries a pretty darn profitable businesses.   Do I want one on the scenic Bay my town resides on? No.  Almost happened once the next town over.  People get uptight about the challenges with Act 250 in VT.  I'd say it failed it's intentions with the Spruce development.  Massively out of place due to it's scale.  It's one of the tallest and largest buildings in the state, at the base of Mt Mansfield for crying out loud.  

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## prsboogie (Mar 10, 2020)

Tonyr said:


> The lodge at spruce peak is one of the best ski in/ski out hotels in the country. Its certainly tops on the east coast.


Yes and complete inaccessible to "regular" skiers

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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2020)

Tonyr said:


> The lodge at spruce peak is one of the best ski in/ski out hotels in the country. Its certainly tops on the east coast.



eww you are gross.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 10, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> eww you are gross.



It is a beautiful hotel, that’s a fact. I think this project was a bit over the top though. Stowe is just too far for most people to drive for a weekend. As nice as it is, I think this would’ve worked better at a place like Okemo, Stratton or Killington. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It is a beautiful hotel, that’s a fact. I think this project was a bit over the top though. Stowe is just too far for most people to drive for a weekend. As nice as it is, I think this would’ve worked better at a place like Okemo, Stratton or Killington.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope you mean work better aesthetically?  

If you mean do more revenue as a business you obviously don't know that Stowe has been the busiest four season resort town in VT with some of the highest priced lodging properties for decades.  Okemo and Stratton are absolute ghost towns in comparison during summer and fall.  No chance in hell that hotel does more annual revenue at probably any other ski area in the East.

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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It is a beautiful hotel, that’s a fact. I think this project was a bit over the top though. Stowe is just too far for most people to drive for a weekend. As nice as it is, I think this would’ve worked better at a place like Okemo, Stratton or Killington.



Huh? Stowe is too far for most people to drive? Since when? It has been a popular mountain for a long time. Where are all the people coming from if it is too far? It is under 4 hours from several major metro areas (i.e. Boston, Albany, Montreal). Even from the outside the NYC area it is under 6.


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## prsboogie (Mar 10, 2020)

Shit I have day tripped Stowe before. I was junk by the time I got home but it was a great day. 4 hours from door to door. 

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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

I've been to the Spruce Lodge.  Even up stairs to the owners lounge with a very wealthy friend.  She pointed out Abigail Johnson's private table.  LOL It's really not my cup of tea either.  They did spend a mint to build it thought.  From a construction stand point, they did a good job but I agree it is out of scale for Stowe and really changed the character. 

So this is another case of people that are less concerned about amenities and just want to ski and others that want all the bells and whistles.  We even have people that live for the most part at areas and are part of the community.  What does this mean? no one will ever agree on anything because everybody has their own preconception of what an area should be like.  Most of which is based on a past experience that was pleasurable.  Problem is things are changing in the industry and we are just along for the ride.


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## Orca (Mar 11, 2020)

I'd like a new Ellen base lodge because I don't have quite the taste for squalor that many posters profess.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Huh? Stowe is too far for most people to drive? Since when? It has been a popular mountain for a long time. Where are all the people coming from if it is too far? It is under 4 hours from several major metro areas (i.e. Boston, Albany, Montreal). Even from the outside the NYC area it is under 6.



I’ve always gotten the sense, at least from NYC people that it’s too far. It’s not less than 6 hours as Sugarbush is about 5.5 and stowe is about 45-1 hour more. While it may be doable for Christmas or a holiday weekend, 12 hours in the car each weekend is too much. Even Sugarbush is pushing it for most. Almost every skier that I know from around where I live thinks Stowe is too far for an average weekend. 


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

Orca said:


> I'd like a new Ellen base lodge because I don't have quite the taste for squalor that many posters profess.



Come on Orca.  It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  LOL  OK  I will buy into some upgrades and possibly a new lodge but building something that is the scale of Lincoln peak would not be my pick.  And I think that Ellen has become the place that just regular people flock to.  People that brown bag and buy discounted tickets or just are plain frugal and don't need the polished look.  I am not one of those people by any stretch but I do agree that it does not make sense to turn your back on those people and tell them to pound sand.


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve always gotten the sense, at least from NYC people that it’s too far. It’s not less than 6 hours as Sugarbush is about 5.5 and stowe is about 45-1 hour more. While it may be doable for Christmas or a holiday weekend, 12 hours in the car each weekend is too much. Even Sugarbush is pushing it for most. Almost every skier that I know from around where I live thinks Stowe is too far for an average weekend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



With the people you are talking to on this board, I would say your opinion about travel is not valid.  Haven't you been listening to the stories from all the road warriors on here?  Most commute 5 to 6 hours from NY, NJ or PA.  So for me from Boston, Stowe is only about the same time as Sugarbush. 3:15 or so.


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## Orca (Mar 11, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Come on Orca.  It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  LOL  OK  I will buy into some upgrades and possibly a new lodge but building something that is the scale of Lincoln peak would not be my pick.  And I think that Ellen has become the place that just regular people flock to.  People that brown bag and buy discounted tickets or just are plain frugal and don't need the polished look.  I am not one of those people by any stretch but I do agree that it does not make sense to turn your back on those people and tell them to pound sand.



A whole village like Lincoln peak suddenly appearing at Ellen seems a very small risk given that new paint appearing on the existing lodge took quite a while to happen. A new base lodge with decent amenities and generous space would be nice though, and likely appreciated by many who are more concerned with consuming lunch than consuming the building's "character".


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

OK fair enough.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2020)

the last few pages have certainly had some twists and turns.  I think we should discuss the viability of the proposed Killington Village just so the discussion can span the entire spine of the green mountains without any major gaps :lol:


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve always gotten the sense, at least from NYC people that it’s too far. It’s not less than 6 hours as Sugarbush is about 5.5 and stowe is about 45-1 hour more. While it may be doable for Christmas or a holiday weekend, 12 hours in the car each weekend is too much. Even Sugarbush is pushing it for most. Almost every skier that I know from around where I live thinks Stowe is too far for an average weekend.



NYC is just ONE of the metro areas in the northeast. Sure a decent number of those people don't go north of K (which is fine with me). However it takes me under 5 hours to get to Sugarbush from NJ. I live 8 miles from NYC. For Stowe I'd take a slightly different route that only adds about 30-45 minutes. If you live IN NYC (or on LI where you need to go through NYC), then it will take longer. But I specifically said "outside NYC" in my previous post for a reason. A lot of people live in the suburbs north and west of NYC and can make it to SB under 5 hours or Stowe under 6.

But again, Stowe certainly has no problem with a lack of people. It doesn't matter whether they are coming from NYC or Boston or Albany or elsewhere. Bottom line is that there are clearly quite a few people that don't consider it "too far". Just because the people you know think it is too far doesn't mean that is what most people in the entire northeast think.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> NYC is just ONE of the metro areas in the northeast. Sure a decent number of those people don't go north of K (which is fine with me). However it takes me under 5 hours to get to Sugarbush from NJ. I live 8 miles from NYC. For Stowe I'd take a slightly different route that only adds about 30-45 minutes. If you live IN NYC (or on LI where you need to go through NYC), then it will take longer. But I specifically said "outside NYC" in my previous post for a reason. A lot of people live in the suburbs north and west of NYC and can make it to SB under 5 hours or Stowe under 6.
> 
> But again, Stowe certainly has no problem with a lack of people. It doesn't matter whether they are coming from NYC or Boston or Albany or elsewhere. Bottom line is that there are clearly quite a few people that don't consider it "too far". Just because the people you know think it is too far doesn't mean that is what most people in the entire northeast think.



I live outside NYC and it takes a minimum of 5 hours 15 minutes to Sugarbush on most weekends. I think the record is 5 hours and 12 minutes for us. One time it took about 7. It all depends. I do agree that Boston and Montreal may be a lot of the people at Stowe but still, there’s a reason they had trouble selling those multi million dollar homes at Spruce. 


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## Tonyr (Mar 11, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> eww you are gross.



Why because I've stayed at the lodge at spruce peak before? I have stayed at the Claybrook as well which is just as nice, is that gross too?


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## dustyroads (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Stowe is just too far for most people to drive for a weekend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Actually from Boston on a clear day, Stowe might be a little quicker to get too. Stowe maybe farther mile wise but much easier drive. It's been awhile but I've day tripped both.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

Is North Ridge broken down again or is it delayed due to icing? 


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

Some people like high end.  Some don't.  If I was wealthy I would probably have bought something higher end.  Actually I probably would not be skiing at Sugarbush and would be flying to exotic destinations and heli and cat skiing only.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I live outside NYC and it takes a minimum of 5 hours 15 minutes to Sugarbush on most weekends. I think the record is 5 hours and 12 minutes for us. One time it took about 7. It all depends. I do agree that Boston and Montreal may be a lot of the people at Stowe but still, there’s a reason they had trouble selling those multi million dollar homes at Spruce.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And you came to this conclusion how? I know two realtors who were / are heavily involved in those sales.  They hardly would categorize the sales pace as slow. I mean sure from 2009-2014 things stayed on the market longer than normal, but that was due to the recession.  Overall though Stowe has by far the most robust luxury real estate conditions of any ski resort town in the East.  It's been that way for decades.

Go to Stowe in the summer or Fall then go to Ludlow, Stratton or Killington.  You will see that there are thousands more visitors going to Stowe.  A hotel wants the maximum occupancy possible 12 months a year, not just ski season.  

Maybe do a little research before making business commentary based upon the preferences of your NYC friends.  It's a big world out there SB!

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## Tonyr (Mar 11, 2020)

Stowe and Sugarbush both take around 5 hours and 15 minutes for me with no traffic coming from NYC.


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## tumbler (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’ve always gotten the sense, at least from NYC people that it’s too far. It’s not less than 6 hours as Sugarbush is about 5.5 and stowe is about 45-1 hour more. While it may be doable for Christmas or a holiday weekend, 12 hours in the car each weekend is too much. Even Sugarbush is pushing it for most. Almost every skier that I know from around where I live thinks Stowe is too far for an average weekend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It must be tough sitting in the back seat with your phone and ipad while Dad drives


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## tumbler (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Is North Ridge broken down again or is it delayed due to icing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I hope you get an answer before you get off the school bus


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I live outside NYC and it takes a minimum of 5 hours 15 minutes to Sugarbush on most weekends. I think the record is 5 hours and 12 minutes for us. One time it took about 7. It all depends. I do agree that Boston and Montreal may be a lot of the people at Stowe but still, there’s a reason they had trouble selling those *multi million dollar homes* at Spruce.



While certainly no means any sort of scientific analysis, I'm going to go out on a limb and say your "average" skier doesn't have millions of dollars to spend on a ski home. Distance has nothing to do with it.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Go to Stowe in the summer or Fall then go to Ludlow, Stratton or Killington.  You will see that there are thousands more visitors going to Stowe.  A hotel wants the maximum occupancy possible 12 months a year, not just ski season.



Whenever I go to Stowe in the summer or fall I'm always thinking to myself "get me out of here...too many people. This isn't what I came to VT for!" No doubt that place is busy all the time (maybe with the exception of a couple weeks in mud season or stick season). But yea...it is "too far".


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Whenever I go to Stowe in the summer or fall I'm always thinking to myself "get me out of here...too many people. This isn't what I came to VT for!" No doubt that place is busy all the time (maybe with the exception of a couple weeks in mud season or stick season). But yea...it is "too far".


Despite it being my former home and still having lots of friends there, Stowe has essentially become a midweek only destination for me no matter the season.  

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## ducky (Mar 11, 2020)

As a member of both Stowe and MRV’s chambers of commerce I can tell you that Stowe’s economy is close to tenfold that of the MRV. Would I want to live there? Not really.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2020)

if you were old enough to drive a car you would know that without traffic, and approaching via 89, sugarbush and stowe are almost the exact same drive time from nyc.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you were old enough to drive a car you would know that without traffic, and approaching via 89, sugarbush and stowe are almost the exact same drive time from nyc.



We always go up Taconic - 22 - 7 - 4 - 100 meaning that Stowe is 45 minutes to an hour further. 


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## dustyroads (Mar 11, 2020)

I would never want SB or the Valley to become like Stowe. Even in the summer the traffic in Stowe can suck. However, looking at the bigger picture, the success of the Mountain and the local area go hand in hand. Local business and the mountain need to offer more year round attractions to sustain the health of both. I think the valley has the potential to be something more unique without becoming a Stowe. Growth has to progress in intelligent stages. It's fun to talk about what SB needs,but it's more than just skiing.  I'm sure Win can elaborate more.


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## snoloco (Mar 11, 2020)

I've seen SB87 taking so much heat for simply thinking Slide Brook is important.  I'm here to say that he's not alone.  I came to Sugarbush for the first time ever this year and have 3 visits.  One time early with just Lincoln open and twice with everything open and connected.  The full Sugarbush experience of getting to ski everything on both sides was so good that it shot Sugarbush straight into my top 5 eastern ski areas list.

Both sides have great terrain, but they are stronger together, not apart.  Slide Brook makes a seamless connection between the two sides where you don't even need to take your skis off to go everywhere on the mountain.  No need to worry about shuttle schedules, or driving over and losing your close parking spot if you got there early.  Once both sides are open, I only go when Slide Brook is open.

I like to start at Lincoln on weekends at 8am.  I'll ski Bravo and Heaven's Gate until 9, then Castlerock, Gate House, or North Lynx till 10 and take Slide Brook over right when it opens.  On the Ellen side, I mostly focus on lapping North Ridge which serves the best terrain.  I will also ski every open trail on Inverness, and make one trip to the summit.  I usually get done with everything I want to ski on Ellen by 1:30-2 including a lunch break while I'm there.  After I'm done at Ellen, I take Slide Brook back to Lincoln and ski everything I wasn't able to ski in the morning.  I'll never be convinced that any other way is better.

And to those who don't want Slide Brook to run because it brings "riff raff" to Ellen, you should just shut the hell up.  Seriously, every non-local hates people like that.  Sugarbush is not your mountain.  It's everyone's mountain who pays to ski there.  If someone bought a lift ticket or pass, they have equal access to all parts of the resort.  It's inefficient for Ellen to be underutilized because people don't have easy access to it through Slide Brook.  Most people don't know about the bus or don't want to take it.  They go up Gate House, see Slide Brook closed, and then go back to ski somewhere else on Lincoln.  Slide Brook needs to be restored to full time, daily operations like in the Otten-era, and anything less is unacceptable.


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## Harvey (Mar 11, 2020)

Haha.

I agree that locals who don't want flatlanders to visit their mountain are delusional.

We're "this close" to seeing how interdependent the economy is.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

So what exactly is wrong with North Ridge now? 


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

snoloco said:


> I've seen SB87 taking so much heat for simply thinking Slide Brook is important.  I'm here to say that he's not alone.  I came to Sugarbush for the first time ever this year and have 3 visits.  One time early with just Lincoln open and twice with everything open and connected.  The full Sugarbush experience of getting to ski everything on both sides was so good that it shot Sugarbush straight into my top 5 eastern ski areas list.
> 
> Both sides have great terrain, but they are stronger together, not apart.  Slide Brook makes a seamless connection between the two sides where you don't even need to take your skis off to go everywhere on the mountain.  No need to worry about shuttle schedules, or driving over and losing your close parking spot if you got there early.  Once both sides are open, I only go when Slide Brook is open.
> 
> ...



As I have said numerous times SB is scheduled to run every day that Mount Ellen is open.  It needs sufficient snow to allow lift mechanics to get in quickly and safely to all 40 towers. It does not run if temps are below 5 degrees for safety reasons, and it is one of the most vulnerable to windholds.


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Is North Ridge broken down again or is it delayed due to icing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There was a drive zone fault yesterday. Today we think we are having some icing issues on GMX and NR and CR lift that are impacting connections.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

WinS said:


> There was a drive zone fault yesterday. Today we think we are having some icing issues on GMX and NR and CR lift that are impacting connections.



Ah. Thanks for the response. 


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## Domeskier (Mar 11, 2020)

Hawk said:


> And I think that Ellen has become the place that just regular people flock to.  People that brown bag and buy discounted tickets or just are plain frugal and don't need the polished look.



Are these skiers really the kind of customers a major resort wants to cater to?  I have no objection to frugal ski bum culture or derelict lodges, but I wouldn't expect a major resort to subsidize them by avoiding improvements that have the potential to attract and bring in much greater revenue from less parsimonious skiers.


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2020)

ducky said:


> As a member of both Stowe and MRV’s chambers of commerce I can tell you that Stowe’s economy is close to tenfold that of the MRV. Would I want to live there? Not really.



Ducky,

This is interesting to me and a key point IMHO.  Having skied and stayed in both places many times, I prefer the MRV and SB/MRG.  

Being on the Chamber of Commerce, I'm sure that you can attest that retail businesses need a certain amount of foot traffic to remain viable.  We've seen businesses in the MRV struggle because of that lack of foot traffic, especially in the off season.  I like to eat in a restaurant with people in it.  Not so crowded that I can't get a table, but enough people for the place to feel vibrant.  Same goes for the movies.  It's weird to me when my wife and I are in a theater that is mostly empty.  

There is a delicate balance that can be met where both camps are happy, but it isn't easy to achieve.


----------



## machski (Mar 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> It is a monstrosity that's totally out of place.  F that lodge, club and village.  Stowe was a hard core skiers mountain with little fluff pre-Spruce.  It's now Disney Vermont.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Funny, Sugarbush South was once known as Mascara Mountain.  My how times have changed.  Sorry DHS, been skiing Stowe since 1990, even then I always felt like the terrain was great but the area was already gravitating to catering to the high end clientel.  Spruce Village in my mind was inevitable.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## smac75 (Mar 11, 2020)

What do we think the chances are of CR challenge happening on lift line this weekend?


----------



## machski (Mar 11, 2020)

Look, from a visiting/destination skier, Sugarbush is obviously better when lift connected with Slidebrook.  It makes the resort ski and feel that much bigger.  And if they are staying in Lincoln Village, all the more so.  I like both sides, can enjoy both sides separately but being that I am a day skier from SoNH, I always park at South.  If Slidebrook isn't running for whatever reason, its a bit of a bummer for me as I have some favorites on North I like to hit, but South for the day has more than enough terrain published and not to keep me happy for the day.

As to Ellen's baselodge, could it be dressed up?  Sure, but its OK as is for now as I believe the typical destnation skier to SB is normally using Lincoln as a gateway entrance given the ammenities it offers.  I like the proposed expansion of Ellen Lodge, especially the slopeside deck part.  May not be perfect for all tastes, but should help make it more comfortable to carry the typical Ellen crowd.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 11, 2020)

Question for Win.  Win is Sugarbush planning on keeping their mobile App or will Sugarbush be lumped in together with the other resorts on the ikon app?
BTW, I feel Sugarbush by far has the best resort app.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

snoloco said:


> I've seen SB87 taking so much heat for simply thinking Slide Brook is important.  I'm here to say that he's not alone.  I came to Sugarbush for the first time ever this year and have 3 visits.  One time early with just Lincoln open and twice with everything open and connected.  The full Sugarbush experience of getting to ski everything on both sides was so good that it shot Sugarbush straight into my top 5 eastern ski areas list.
> 
> Both sides have great terrain, but they are stronger together, not apart.  Slide Brook makes a seamless connection between the two sides where you don't even need to take your skis off to go everywhere on the mountain.  No need to worry about shuttle schedules, or driving over and losing your close parking spot if you got there early.  Once both sides are open, I only go when Slide Brook is open.
> 
> ...



Oh look! K-Zone's version of Slidebrook87 has showed up! 

:lol:


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2020)

machski said:


> Look, from a visiting/destination skier, Sugarbush is obviously better when lift connected with Slidebrook.  It makes the resort ski and feel that much bigger.  And if they are staying in Lincoln Village, all the more so.  I like both sides, can enjoy both sides separately but being that I am a day skier from SoNH, I always park at South.  If Slidebrook isn't running for whatever reason, its a bit of a bummer for me as I have some favorites on North I like to hit, but South for the day has more than enough terrain published and not to keep me happy for the day.
> 
> As to Ellen's baselodge, could it be dressed up?  Sure, but its OK as is for now as I believe the typical destnation skier to SB is normally using Lincoln as a gateway entrance given the ammenities it offers.  I like the proposed expansion of Ellen Lodge, especially the slopeside deck part.  May not be perfect for all tastes, but should help make it more comfortable to carry the typical Ellen crowd.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



This is pretty much where I fall too.  Almost always (unless buying a ME only day pass) parking at South and starting my day there.  Plenty of terrain for me to have a full day.  I'm happy to take SB or the shuttle over to ME for a bit to mix it up, but I'm equally cool with staying at South for the day.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ah. Thanks for the response.



Because it really matters that Win responds to EVERY SINGLE lift situation to some 14 year old twerp who likes to complain constantly.

:roll::roll::roll:


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Because it really matters that Win responds to EVERY SINGLE lift situation to some 14 year old twerp who likes to complain constantly.
> 
> :roll::roll::roll:



I actually think it would be interesting for SB87 to get some sort of internship in the business department at Sugarbush.  Might actually get a better understanding of how things actually run.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I actually think it would be interesting for SB87 to get some sort of internship in the business department at Sugarbush.  Might actually get a better understanding of how things actually run.



I would actually like to do something like this when I get older. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I actually think it would be interesting for SB87 to get some sort of internship in the business department at Sugarbush.  Might actually get a better understanding of how things actually run.



...And then poor Win's staff will all walk off the job by the end of the week! 

:lol:


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2020)

machski said:


> Funny, Sugarbush South was once known as Mascara Mountain.  My how times have changed.  Sorry DHS, been skiing Stowe since 1990, even then I always felt like the terrain was great but the area was already gravitating to catering to the high end clientel.  Spruce Village in my mind was inevitable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


I don't disagree with that, especially having lived there from the majority of 95 to 05 and knowing the culture of the town / mountain. I disagree with the scale.  I would have been fine with something on the scale of Claybrook.  The monstrosity built at Spruce could've been denied along with blowing up the side of the mountain to put in a golf course.  Much of this required swapping land with the state park system.   

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Please stop pestering him with every little operational question.



listen SB87 I get it you are super interested in the ski area and industry, but your tone is pretty harsh at times.  Without stifling your interest sit back and take it all in and maybe you'll learn even more. 

your enthusiasm is pretty cool, but its become a bit over the top with the direct questions and seemingly no it all attitude.  You can still be a valuable member to this forum, but think a little before you fire off every little question or opinion.  This will help you not only here but in life in general.


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## snoloco (Mar 11, 2020)

I'm 21, so I'm a bit older than Slidebrook 87.  I was just like him when I was his age.  It's a phase we all go through, so please stop the hate.


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2020)

You asked the owner of a mountain every single day exactly why a particular lift isn’t running?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

rocks860 said:


> You asked the owner of a mountain every single day exactly why a particular lift isn’t running?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



How is that a bad thing to ask why a lift is shut down? It’s out of curiosity. Also, it’s not every day. It’s whenever a lift that usually runs is closed for an unspecified reason. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2020)

I can understand if you’re planning on skiing on a given day and you don’t know why a lift isn’t running but it comes off a just incessant badgering and I’m sure win has important stuff to do. Also your tone is rather snarky


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2020)

snoloco said:


> I'm 21, so I'm a bit older than Slidebrook 87.  I was just like him when I was his age.  It's a phase we all go through, so please stop the hate.



not hating on anyone but frankly you and him should re-read my last paragraph and take that advice if not for here but in life.

SB87 its annoying because Win has shit to do/. Thankfully he participates in this forum and again thankfully he feels the need to respond.  There is literally no one else in his position answering questions as often like he does.


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## rocks860 (Mar 11, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> not hating on anyone but frankly you and him should re-read my last paragraph and take that advice if not for here but in life.
> 
> SB87 its annoying because Win has shit to do/. Thankfully he participates in this forum and again thankfully he feels the need to respond.  There is literally no one else in his position answering questions as often like he does.



This


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> Are these skiers really the kind of customers a major resort wants to cater to?  I have no objection to frugal ski bum culture or derelict lodges, but I wouldn't expect a major resort to subsidize them by avoiding improvements that have the potential to attract and bring in much greater revenue from less parsimonious skiers.



Dome, who said that the North regulars were subsidized or the owners would avoid improvements because of these people?  That wasn't the point.  There are some of us that don't want a huge modern glitzy lodge.  The lodge does need work but we don't want it homogenized or super high end.  Just something that fits with the people, the mountain and the history.  And calling the locals and the regulars over there ski bums is not accurate also.  There is a lot of people jumping to conclusions here saying that the North crowd does not like the day ticket people or the people that usually ski south, that is also not true.  In fact on here there are several that always say it was better at north and you should come over there and ski.  But there has to be a balance over there that is all I am saying.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> How is that a bad thing to ask why a lift is shut down? It’s out of curiosity. Also, it’s not every day. It’s whenever a lift that usually runs is closed for an unspecified reason.




Snarky with a capitol S. Complaints to Praise ratio is extremely skewed. Ask/complain about issues when you aren't even there/going to be there?? Really? Tell us the truth, you're Home-schooled and Mommy left the room so you're screwing off instead of doing your schoolwork, right? ;-)

:lol::lol::lol:


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## tumbler (Mar 11, 2020)

Maybe Dad can buy Haystack for him and he can put his mountain ops expertise to use.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Maybe Dad can buy Haystack for him and he can put his mountain ops expertise to use.



Talk about a mountain ops fail... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 11, 2020)

And speaking of a crowded Mt Ellen lodge. Could be a bit cozy this weekend, SB is hosting the U14 Eastern Championships. Lot's o' race parents lounging inside between runs. It's always a great event, with some unbelievable skiers, but it it's cold, clouding and icy, they don't go out much.


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## Domeskier (Mar 11, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Dome, who said that the North regulars were subsidized or the owners would avoid improvements because of these people?  That wasn't the point.  There are some of us that don't want a huge modern glitzy lodge.  The lodge does need work but we don't want it homogenized or super high end.  Just something that fits with the people, the mountain and the history.  And calling the locals and the regulars over there ski bums is not accurate also.  There is a lot of people jumping to conclusions here saying that the North crowd does not like the day ticket people or the people that usually ski south, that is also not true.  In fact on here there are several that always say it was better at north and you should come over there and ski.  But there has to be a balance over there that is all I am saying.



I think it's fine that you and others want SB to keep ME the way it is.  I would happily trade luxurious base lodges for uncrowded slopes and limited lift lines.  My point is that preserving this type of experience has its opportunity costs and the SB probably doesn't have to worry too much about the economic impact of changing the culture if ME attracts the type of skiers you described in the post I quoted.  Another poster suggested that developing ME would just shift more SB South skiers without creating a net gain on investment.  That seems like wishful thinking in light of the crowds that SB South and Stowe attract.  Most of the arguments for preserving the character of ME are from the skier's perspective.  What is needed is a persuasive argument that it's in SB's economic interest to preserve ME's culture.


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## tumbler (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Talk about a mountain ops fail...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No, that was a business failure


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2020)

tumbler said:


> No, that was a business failure



When I skied there in 2018 they had horrible mountain ops. It was a business failure that had horrible mountain ops. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2020)

Does anyone know deadline you have to purchase the Ikon Pass to get the biggest discount?


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## SkiTheEast (Mar 11, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Does anyone know deadline you have to purchase the Ikon Pass to get the biggest discount?



Just went thru Win's letter, looks like April 22nd.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2020)

lol have the actual ski the east guys been lurking here for a year and just decided to post for the first time to answer a random ikon pass question?


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## SkiTheEast (Mar 11, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol have the actual ski the east guys been lurking here for a year and just decided to post for the first time to answer a random ikon pass question?



Lol, nope, no affiliation, just a long time lurker.  Was surprised to see name available when I signed up and just never got around to changing it, since I obviously am not an active poster...not trying to misrepresent.


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> How is that a bad thing to ask why a lift is shut down? It’s out of curiosity. Also, it’s not every day. It’s whenever a lift that usually runs is closed for an unspecified reason.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Today it turned out a rodent chewed through a wire!  This happens occasionally. Try problem solving that one!  I am very proud of the lift team we have.


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## Tonyr (Mar 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't disagree with that, especially having lived there from the majority of 95 to 05 and knowing the culture of the town / mountain. I disagree with the scale.  I would have been fine with something on the scale of Claybrook.  The monstrosity built at Spruce could've been denied along with blowing up the side of the mountain to put in a golf course.  Much of this required swapping land with the state park system.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



The problem with a hotel at the scale of the Claybrook is that there isn't enough regular sized hotel rooms to fill the demand for slopeside lodging. I don't know if you've ever tried staying at the Claybrook or not but they have very few hotel style rooms, if you want to stay there more times than not you have to book a 1,2,or 3 bedroom suite which costs substantially more than a regular hotel room.  The Claybrook also requires a 4 or 5 night minimum stay during peak season every time I've tried to book there.

Spruce Peak is very large but on the other hand has plenty of rooms. During MLK week (Monday thru Thursday) they had standard rooms going for around $200 per night with no minimum stay requirement. The Claybrook's standard rooms during that time where 2 or 3 times that price assuming that you could even get one. I've also never had a hard time getting a seat for lunch at Spruce Peak. 

Other than the skating rink at Stowe both Spruce and Lincoln Peak villages have a very similar posh feel to me. Saying that the Spruce Peak development ruined the ski resort and should "F" themselves but the Claybrook/Lincoln Peak development is fine because of its scale sounds incredibly silly to me. Isn't Sugarbush trying to add more slopeside lodging to Lincoln Peak anyway?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

SkiTheEast said:


> Lol, nope, no affiliation, just a long time lurker.  Was surprised to see name available when I signed up and just never got around to changing it, since I obviously am not an active poster...not trying to misrepresent.



You must be the one from Sugarloaftoday


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## crippity (Mar 11, 2020)

Never had a hard time getting a seat at spruce peak?  you must be kidding (unless you are talking midweek which then all bets are off for all of this), ive been stowe 15-20 days a year since it was built.   that layout and trying to get a table in the middle of that cluster is the dumbest set up i have ever seen.  Full disclosure i hang on the other side  but have witnessed enough guests trying to spend their 100 dollar lunch there.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

crippity said:


> Never had a hard time getting a seat at spruce peak?  you must be kidding (unless you are talking midweek which then all bets are off for all of this), ive been stowe 15-20 days a year since it was built.   that layout and trying to get a table in the middle of that cluster is the dumbest set up i have ever seen.  Full disclosure i hang on the other side  but have witnessed enough guests trying to spend their 100 dollar lunch there.



Wow, you can tell the stress level is high this winter, even the Lurkers are coming out of the woodwork! :lol:

Welcome! 13 months before your first post. You must rank up in the top 3 Lurkers haha! 

:beer:


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## Tonyr (Mar 11, 2020)

crippity said:


> Never had a hard time getting a seat at spruce peak?  you must be kidding (unless you are talking midweek which then all bets are off for all of this), ive been stowe 15-20 days a year since it was built.   that layout and trying to get a table in the middle of that cluster is the dumbest set up i have ever seen.  Full disclosure i hang on the other side  but have witnessed enough guests trying to spend their 100 dollar lunch there.



The Hourglass lounge inside the hotel is never full during lunch and that includes the times I've been there over MLK and President's weekends. The main dining hall at Spruce does get very busy.


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## Tonyr (Mar 11, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Wow, you can tell the stress level is high this winter, even the Lurkers are coming out of the woodwork! :lol:
> 
> Welcome! 13 months before your first post. You must rank up in the top 3 Lurkers haha!
> 
> :beer:



I wonder who that could be?!


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## crippity (Mar 11, 2020)

full on lurking like a madman for last few months, have had a good season during vaca weeks but kids hoops in a great/miserable way has kept me from VT for last few weekends and am losing mind .  do have plenty to offer on all these topics so i will be proactive going forward as i bush/stowe/bolton have been my goto for last 20years, keep up good work


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## crippity (Mar 11, 2020)

and i hear both sides 100 percent but i am leaning on side of leaving ellen way it is (vibe wise, sure bigger deck would be nice)


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## ScottySkis (Mar 11, 2020)

Tonyr said:


> I wonder who that could be?!



Not glade runner( sir Ban a lot)


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## shadyjay (Mar 11, 2020)

WinS said:


> Today it turned out a rodent chewed through a wire!  This happens occasionally. Try problem solving that one!  I am very proud of the lift team we have.



Haha - yes it does.  I remember (and Win might too) when I was working top of Bravo one day a few years back and we had 10-15 "mystery" stops within a 15-20 minute period.  One of them occurred right as Win got to Tower 18, just shy of the ramp.  After some investigation by lift maintenance, it was determined a rodent chewed through the wire going to one of the stop buttons.  It was just enough not to trigger all the time, as everything checked out in the AM.  It does happen, but it took some diagnosing.  Always enjoyed working lifts and dealing with the lift maintenance staff.... great group of guys.  They didn't like me so much during snowmaking, but that's a different story for another time.  :lol:

Can't wait for my now-yearly visit next week!!!


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> haha - yes it does.  I remember (and win might too) when i was working top of bravo one day a few years back and we had 10-15 "mystery" stops within a 15-20 minute period.  One of them occurred right as win got to tower 18, just shy of the ramp.  After some investigation by lift maintenance, it was determined a rodent chewed through the wire going to one of the stop buttons.  It was just enough not to trigger all the time, as everything checked out in the am.  It does happen, but it took some diagnosing.  Always enjoyed working lifts and dealing with the lift maintenance staff.... Great group of guys.  They didn't like me so much during snowmaking, but that's a different story for another time.  :lol:
> 
> Can't wait for my now-yearly visit next week!!!



welcome home!


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2020)

Tonyr said:


> The problem with a hotel at the scale of the Claybrook is that there isn't enough regular sized hotel rooms to fill the demand for slopeside lodging. I don't know if you've ever tried staying at the Claybrook or not but they have very few hotel style rooms, if you want to stay there more times than not you have to book a 1,2,or 3 bedroom suite which costs substantially more than a regular hotel room.  The Claybrook also requires a 4 or 5 night minimum stay during peak season every time I've tried to book there.
> 
> Spruce Peak is very large but on the other hand has plenty of rooms. During MLK week (Monday thru Thursday) they had standard rooms going for around $200 per night with no minimum stay requirement. The Claybrook's standard rooms during that time where 2 or 3 times that price assuming that you could even get one. I've also never had a hard time getting a seat for lunch at Spruce Peak.
> 
> Other than the skating rink at Stowe both Spruce and Lincoln Peak villages have a very similar posh feel to me. Saying that the Spruce Peak development ruined the ski resort and should "F" themselves but the Claybrook/Lincoln Peak development is fine because of its scale sounds incredibly silly to me. Isn't Sugarbush trying to add more slopeside lodging to Lincoln Peak anyway?



Tony, the Claybrook was designed and sold as a time share with the units designed for families. It is not a hotel by any means and because of this there are very few studio units.  I looked at one a while back as in investment but backed away at the time.  So people are basically selling their slot based on what their cost is based on the spend for their week.  It is bound to higher because of that fact.
Also the spruce village area and the Claybrook area are nothing alike.  Just last weekend on Saturday there were hundreds of people hanging our in the plaza with (2) bars open plus the outside bar.  It was really cool that you could walk around and catch two different bands for free and you were aloud to walk around with a cocktail or beer freely.  This only gets bigger as the spring rolls on.  Once it gets warmer Win has bands outside.  There is nothing like that at spruce so your comparison is off.  Sugarbush is way cooler.


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## Tonyr (Mar 12, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Tony, the Claybrook was designed and sold as a time share with the units designed for families. It is not a hotel by any means and because of this there are very few studio units.  I looked at one a while back as in investment but backed away at the time.  So people are basically selling their slot based on what their cost is based on the spend for their week.  It is bound to higher because of that fact.
> Also the spruce village area and the Claybrook area are nothing alike.  Just last weekend on Saturday there were hundreds of people hanging our in the plaza with (2) bars open plus the outside bar.  It was really cool that you could walk around and catch two different bands for free and you were aloud to walk around with a cocktail or beer freely.  This only gets bigger as the spring rolls on.  Once it gets warmer Win has bands outside.  There is nothing like that at spruce so your comparison is off.  Sugarbush is way cooler.



I'm not denying that Sugarbush is way cooler!!! It's my favorite place in the east to ski.


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## Orca (Mar 12, 2020)

Going to be a short season if March doesn't start producing more snow than rain. Friday looks dismal.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 12, 2020)

Orca said:


> Going to be a short season if March doesn't start producing more snow than rain. Friday looks dismal.



Down here the buds are already coming out on the trees. What happened to winter???


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## Newpylong (Mar 12, 2020)

It never really happened for half of New England.


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## mikec142 (Mar 12, 2020)

I read somewhere recently that there have been more days above 60 degrees than days below freezing this winter in NYC.  With the exception of just a handful of days, I've worn a relatively light puffer jacket instead of my winter coat.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 12, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I read somewhere recently that there have been more days above 60 degrees than days below freezing this winter in NYC.  With the exception of just a handful of days, I've worn a relatively light puffer jacket instead of my winter coat.



Yeah it’s been insane. For Sugarbush at least, February was great, but December, January and March have all sucked. 


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## icecoast1 (Mar 12, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I read somewhere recently that there have been more days above 60 degrees than days below freezing this winter in NYC.  With the exception of just a handful of days, I've worn a relatively light puffer jacket instead of my winter coat.



Alaska has broken records for the cold they've seen this year, unfortunately the rest of us are seeing above average temps.


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## Bhumper (Mar 12, 2020)

Win -

I hate to even bring this up, but with the current events surrounding Covid-19 and many events being cancelled, the closure of Berkshire East and Catamount could you share how the Sugarbush team is thinking about this? Thanks


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## WinS (Mar 12, 2020)

Bhumper said:


> Win -
> 
> I hate to even bring this up, but with the current events surrounding Covid-19 and many events being cancelled, the closure of Berkshire East and Catamount could you share how the Sugarbush team is thinking about this? Thanks



I am going to send a note out to everyone tomorrow with more detail. We have not changed our operating plan and are following CDC guidelines to protect the safety of employees and guests. Quite a few people enjoying last night's grooming. I skied Lower Spring Fling where we still have 8-10 feet of depth.  If you know where the mountain biking trails comes out from Moonshine you can see how much snow is left there.  The natural trails are getting thin, and we can't operate Slidebrook until we get more snow.  We have been shoveling at CR so that is still open.  I was very  pleasantly surprised how nice the groomed trails were this morning. As of this morning still had 101 of 111 trails open. Will reopen Cliffs once groomed tonight. One of our winch cats went down last night but brought our second from LP over to ME today to get to Cliffs tonight.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2020)

how do you think we'll weather the rain and freeze? i'd love to ski this weekend to take my mind off of the nightmare that this world is becoming. wary of conditions, but also wary of the ability to keep skiing over the next month or two due to lack of snow and the end of the god damn world.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> how do you think we'll weather the rain and freeze? i'd love to ski this weekend to take my mind off of the nightmare that this world is becoming. wary of conditions, but also wary of the ability to keep skiing over the next month or two due to lack of snow and the end of the god damn world.



Just go ski


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## 1dog (Mar 12, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Just go ski



Best advice I've ever seen on this forum. If it's white, it's skiable. My problem is kids on Extreme this weekend - jumping from rock to rock pile I'd guess. Still - mountains over unrelenting craziness. . . .  it feeds off itself. Great ratings for the media tho. . . .


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2020)

Yup, my plan is to head up ski and then sit in the plaza and watch the world go by with a fiddle head in my hand.  Maybe catch some music.  Good luck to your kids 1dog.  Gonna be rough but that never stops them.  I have no idea how Wayne the mailman does that every year.  He's my age role model.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2020)

The skiing might be shitty this weekend, but you don't know for sure if you don't go. I plan to be up there making the best of whatever we have.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 12, 2020)

I got a new jacket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 12, 2020)

Bhumper said:


> Win -
> 
> I hate to even bring this up, but with the current events surrounding Covid-19 and many events being cancelled, the closure of Berkshire East and Catamount could you share how the Sugarbush team is thinking about this? Thanks



Another Lurker out of the woodwork. Member for 2 years posting first time. Welcome! 

:-D


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## WinS (Mar 12, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yup, my plan is to head up ski and then sit in the plaza and watch the world go by with a fiddle head in my hand.  Maybe catch some music.  Good luck to your kids 1dog.  Gonna be rough but that never stops them.  I have no idea how Wayne the mailman does that every year.  He's my age role model.



Today was day 98 for me and also hosted an Allyn’s Lodge dinner with a fun ski down. Definitely planning on day 99 in the rain tomorrow followed by hosting another Allyn’s Lodge dinner and day 100 on Saturday with Lili, my kids and grand kids on Saturday. We bought some more beach chairs so Hawk will be more comfortable with his apres Fiddlehead.


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## tumbler (Mar 13, 2020)

Might have a busier couple weeks than anticipated with schools closing for weeks in MA.


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## Edd (Mar 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Might have a busier couple weeks than anticipated with schools closing for weeks in MA.



This weekday skier shudders at the thought.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Might have a busier couple weeks than anticipated with schools closing for weeks in MA.



But there are online classes... I wish I could do that, trust me, but I have work to do. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Might have a busier couple weeks than anticipated with schools closing for weeks in MA.



eh, unless they are seniors, they still need their parents to drive them and pay for their accomodations, and most people still need to work from home and unless they have a second home probably dont want to pay for lodging for an extended period amongst this uncertainty

i floated the 'lets move to vermont for 2-3 weeks' idea to my gf last night and she was less enthused than me. she's worried about paying $1000-$1500 for a vt place while we still need to pay rent. her job is stable. so is mine. tho my company is a bit less stable than hers as we're start-up-ish and she works for the largest evil law firm in the world (she does graphic design type work for skadden arps)


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## Hawk (Mar 13, 2020)

You mean Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates.  I was just reading last week that they are being investigated by the department of justice in NY over the whole Paul Manafort business and also had to pay some fine for improper billing.  BTW they are # 5 but that is still a giant among giants.


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## tumbler (Mar 13, 2020)

It will be the 2nd homeowners and seasonal renters for sure.  People will work from there and take the 10 minutes to drop their kids off at the hill and maybe take some lunch runs themselves.  I don't think it will be Xmas week crowded, but a slight noticeable increase.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 13, 2020)

Ski/quarantine vacation?  maybe I'll float this by my wife...  :lol:


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You mean Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates.  I was just reading last week that they are being investigated by the department of justice in NY over the whole Paul Manafort business and also had to pay some fine for improper billing.  BTW they are # 5 but that is still a giant among giants.



yea they were into all kinds of shady manafort shit. but my point is her employer aint goin nowhere, whereas a downturn could significantly impact mine. fortunately we make cloud software for lawyers that enables them to work remotely from any device, so there's a business upside to this horrific situation for us.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 13, 2020)

How is it today other than the fact that a good portion of the mountain isn’t open? Soft? Icy? Mix? 


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## skiur (Mar 13, 2020)

Its raining, do you really need to ask how the snow is? Of course its soft.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2020)

seriously. must you ask these questions every single day even when the answer is painfully fucking obvious?


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## Hawk (Mar 13, 2020)

Headed up shortly.  I gotta get out of here it is too depressing.  On my floor, (100,000sf) there is usually about 300 or so people.  There are 25 of us today.  On the web cam there looks to be some freezing rain so maybe it is not soft all around.  Also they sometimes close the trails so preserve the snow for the weekend and not have it all rutted up.


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## TSQURD (Mar 13, 2020)

Skied for a few hours this morning.  Most upper mtn lifts were on hold. Heard Bravo wasn't skiing well, so started on GH. Everything off of Gate House was soft.  Went up North Lynx, liftie had to clear the ice off the chair, about 1/3 of the way up noticed a nice coating of ice on the trees and starting to form on the chair, got heavier up higher.  Everything was still frozen up solid at the top and the wind was enough to blow me sideways.  Looks like NL is down for the day now.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 13, 2020)

Under quarantine in westchester.  Looking like this corona thing will Be the end of my ski season.  Not happy about that.

my 2 cents on this whole mt Ellen lodge issue.
in addition to being a sugarbush fan boy, I’m also a huge yankee baseball fan.  Furthermore I worked predominately at the courthouse by the stadium for almost 30 years.  I was a season ticket holder at the old yankee stadium from ‘96 through ‘07.  Id go to games during lunch.  I barely missed any of the playoff/ws games those years and there were many (good times).  You’d be hard pressed to find more than a handful of people who went to more games the last decade of the old stadium.  
I know, the old stadium, as beloved as it was, absolutely had to be replaced.  It was getting to the point where it was not structurally sound.  The corridors were dangerously narrow making exiting difficult on a good day.  If there was an incident there, it would have been a death trap.when they built the new stadium, there were many critical of its design.  Many, especially old timers, hated the new stadium, too many corporate seats, didn’t have the same charm, blah blah blah.  I had my own issues with it.  The level of complaining about the new stadium rose when the team was old boring and non competitive.  As soon as the team got good 3 years ago, the complaining about the new stadium stopped.

the mt Ellen base lodge is a classic.  Everybody loves it.  It has charm.  If it were ever to be replaced, everyone would be nostalgic for the old lodge.  But it’s also too small.  The bathroom and kitchen facilities are inadequate today and certainly not able to accommodate increased traffic in the future.  The inside stairwell from the first to second floor is hazardous.  Has anyone taken a dive on that thing yet?It’s not handicapped accessible (although the vt adaptive addition would address this).  I can’t speak to the structural integrity of the building, but I’d imagine that a wood framed building Which is almost 60 years old must have some issues.  
when the time comes to replace the old building, there will be plenty of bitching and moaning about the new one.  There will be a long period of mourning.  But in the end, we all go there for the skiing.  as long as ullr blesses us with some pow, and the god damned north ridge is running, we’ll be in the new lodge, making new memories, telling stories about the great old lodge.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 13, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Under quarantine in westchester.  Looking like this corona thing will Be the end of my ski season.  Not happy about that.
> 
> Very sorry to hear this saw news. Get well soon wish u the best.
> 
> my 2 cents on this whole mt Ellen lodge issue.


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## MorningWoods (Mar 13, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Under quarantine in westchester.  Looking like this corona thing will Be the end of my ski season.  Not happy about that.
> 
> my 2 cents on this whole mt Ellen lodge issue.
> in addition to being a sugarbush fan boy, I’m also a huge yankee baseball fan.  Furthermore I worked predominately at the courthouse by the stadium for almost 30 years.  I was a season ticket holder at the old yankee stadium from ‘96 through ‘07.  Id go to games during lunch.  I barely missed any of the playoff/ws games those years and there were many (good times).  You’d be hard pressed to find more than a handful of people who went to more games the last decade of the old stadium.
> ...



Good post. I’ll miss the GML, nothing else. As I’m sure anything in it’s place could only be a massive improvement. 

Curious, I know mt Ellen base was not in the near term plans. A new walts and mid mountain GH is. But GH is already kind of a shit show 9-2. Won’t putting a lodge at the top of GH make that whole situation worse and actually make it more of an issue to get over to north when SB is running? I already give up on it on Saturdays after taking one look at that gatehouse madness. Why not do North first and spread the volume a little more?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 13, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> Good post. I’ll miss the GML, nothing else. As I’m sure anything in it’s place could only be a massive improvement.
> 
> Curious, I know mt Ellen base was not in the near term plans. A new walts and mid mountain GH is. But GH is already kind of a shit show 9-2. Won’t putting a lodge at the top of GH make that whole situation worse and actually make it more of an issue to get over to north when SB is running? I already give up on it on Saturdays after taking one look at that gatehouse madness. Why not do North first and spread the volume a little more?
> 
> ...



I agree with this. Either a new GH six pack or a new Ellen lodge would be needed to help spread out crowds and make these mid mountain lodges functional. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Any reason why the Lincoln lifts are opening at 9:00 today? No more early ups? 


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> seriously. must you ask these questions every single day even when the answer is painfully fucking obvious?



You know what? It’s not obvious. When it rains I obviously expect it to be soft but that isn’t always the case. At the end of April last year it rained and stayed above freezing yet everything was a complete sheet of ice. I have a photo from that day too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## pinnoke (Mar 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Any reason why the Lincoln lifts are opening at 9:00 today? No more early ups?
> 
> I'd be pretty sure that the answer lies with an oversight by the snow reporter.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> You know what? It’s not obvious. When it rains I obviously expect it to be soft but that isn’t always the case. At the end of April last year it rained and stayed above freezing yet everything was a complete sheet of ice. I have a photo from that day too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Slidebrook, here is spring/rain lesson 101.  Snow Rule #1 - natural snow is generally a softer and is more pliable and manageable substance than Machine made snow.  When it is created the density is lighter because it is made of smaller crystals that have a lighter and different structure from the man made crystals.  Generally on most trails that are remaining, there is a large very hard man made base underneath the overall depth of the snow pack.  In spring the rains come and melt from the top down.  Once all the natural is melted out we are left with a glacier of that hard icey base.  So even when it is warm, all the soft snow melts off and you get what we have on days like yesterday on some trails.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> Slidebrook87 said:
> 
> 
> > Any reason why the Lincoln lifts are opening at 9:00 today? No more early ups?
> ...


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Slidebrook, here is spring/rain lesson 101.  Snow Rule #1 - natural snow is generally a softer and is more pliable and manageable substance than Machine made snow.  When it is created the density is lighter because it is made of smaller crystals that have a lighter and different structure from the man made crystals.  Generally on most trails that are remaining, there is a large very hard man made base underneath the overall depth of the snow pack.  In spring the rains come and melt from the top down.  Once all the natural is melted out we are left with a glacier of that hard icey base.  So even when it is warm, all the soft snow melts off and you get what we have on days like yesterday on some trails.



Interesting. I heard they were refunding people that day because of how poor the conditions were. That was the one day in my life where I would rather not ski than ski. 


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

They should not refund anybody this time of the year that does not understand the weather and conditions.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

FYI, Sugarbush pass holders can purchase Ikon passes on or before April 21 with a renewal discount. You were emailed a discount code on March 5 in case you are having trouble finding it in your inbox.


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## WinS (Mar 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Any reason why the Lincoln lifts are opening at 9:00 today? No more early ups?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It was a snow reporting error. Forgot to change from midweek to weekend.  Sorry about that.


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## shadyjay (Mar 14, 2020)

I have decided to not come up this coming week.  With uncertainty with my own job at the present time, I need to work for as long as I can, as my job is the mechanical side of the entertainment/resort industry, and not exactly "take home".  This will most likely mean the first winter season since c 1992 that I have not been on snow.  I wanted to come up to Sugarbush really bad and socialize with friends and my mountain folk but those activities are virtually non-existent at the present.  I was looking forward to a $30 Thursday Apres party with music and reminiscing at GML and cruising down some of my favorite trails.  I was ready to accept the fact that it was probably just going to be groomers.  But, oh well.  Things happen.  We will make it through this hiccup and live to shred another day!


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

So that’s a wrap for the season... It’s a shame. 


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## TSQURD (Mar 14, 2020)

Can anyone make sense of the press release?


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## TSQURD (Mar 14, 2020)

Looks like a copy paste issue:

Alterra Mountain Company owned destinations are Steamboat and Winter Park in Colorado; Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows, Mammoth Mountain, June Mountain and Big Bear Mountain Resort in California; Stratton and Sugarbush Resort in Vermont; Snowshoe in West Virginia; Tremblant in Quebec, Blue Mountain in Ontario; Crystal Mountain in Washington; Deer Valley Resort and Solitude Mountain Resort in Utah; and CMH Heli-Skiing & Summer Adventures in British Columbia (CMH Heli-Skiing & Summer Adventures will continue to operate through Tuesday, March 17th).

Alterra Mountain Company owned destinations are Steamboat and Winter Park in Colorado; Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows, Mammoth Mountain, June Mountain and Big Bear Mountain Resort in California; Stratton and Sugarbush Resort in Vermont; Snowshoe in West Virginia; Tremblant in Quebec, Blue Mountain in Ontario; Crystal Mountain in Washington; Deer Valley Resort and Solitude Mountain Resort in Utah; and CMH Heli-Skiing & Summer Adventures in British Columbia.

Each resort will work directly with guests in canceling their visit and will provide refunds to those who have hotel and other bookings during this closure period. We anticipate heavy call volume over the next several days and appreciate guests’ patience as we work hard to respond to all inquiries.

I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this short notice will undoubtedly create. We look forward to welcoming you back to your mountains as circumstances improve.

Rusty Gregory

Chief Executive Officer

Alterra Mountain Company


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

Well it’s a good thing I own touring equipment... But very unclear note. Doesn’t say when closing begins. IF it will end (Vail is closing 3/15-22) or if employees will be paid for those next 8 days (Bravo to Vail for this). https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/03/14/alterra-mountain-company-closure-announcement.html


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## Keelhauled (Mar 14, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Looks like a copy paste issue:



Yeah someone cut off the first couple paragraphs that said, more or less, "you ain't skiing."  They were there fifteen minutes ago.  Probably they're trying to draft new language.


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## TSQURD (Mar 14, 2020)

The summary on the press release page clearly says tomorrow, but the actual press release is screwed up


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

Hey guys just got intel from a trusted ski industry source - they’re working on details, this was reactionary. (But also a copy-and-paste issue it appears)


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## NickDanger (Mar 14, 2020)

Just got this. https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/03/14/alterra-mountain-company-closure-announcement


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## tumbler (Mar 14, 2020)

Had a sneaky great day following the sun. Skied like today was the last day and it was good.  Had a blast!  

To bad but closing is the right thing to do.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 14, 2020)

ktrerotola said:


> Well it’s a good thing I own touring equipment... But very unclear note. Doesn’t say when closing begins. IF it will end (Vail is closing 3/15-22) or if employees will be paid for those next 8 days (Bravo to Vail for this). https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/03/14/alterra-mountain-company-closure-announcement.html
> e



I dunno, I just heard on twitter that RASTA was suspending all lift and food service operations in the Brandon Gap.


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## tumbler (Mar 14, 2020)

NickDanger said:


> Just got this. https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2020/03/14/alterra-mountain-company-closure-announcement
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I didn’t see that before my previous post. I though closing Monday or Tuesday was good. 

So,  Bush not open tomorrow?


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## CastlerockMRV (Mar 14, 2020)

Does the closure affect the the uphill policy too? Don’t wanna be a rule breaker but...I don’t want to be done yet. 


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## shadyjay (Mar 14, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I didn’t see that before my previous post. I though closing Monday or Tuesday was good.
> 
> So,  Bush not open tomorrow?



It would appear no...



> [FONT=&quot]Alterra Mountain Company will suspend operations at our 15 North American ski resorts, starting the morning of Sunday, March 15, until further notice. All lift operations, food and beverage, retail and rental services will be closed until further notice.





[/FONT]


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## Los (Mar 14, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I didn’t see that before my previous post. I though closing Monday or Tuesday was good.
> 
> So,  Bush not open tomorrow?



Correct. Per the announcement. Although nothing yet on the sugarbush website. So, but for reading this forum, I’d have no idea sugarbush will apparently be closed tomorrow...


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## TSQURD (Mar 14, 2020)

Im guessing Win is scrambling the team now. Assuming we will see something from Win or SB shortly.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 14, 2020)

Damn...I only skied until 3 today figuring they might have called  it done after tomorrow


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2020)

Definitely didn’t expect a closure in the middle of the weekend once everyone was already here...



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## slatham (Mar 14, 2020)

Why do I have a sense that Win is on the phone with Alterra right now.....

It's just time to go back to the old days. Park car, put boots on in parking lot, head to lift, ski, brown bag in car. The only "communal" activity is going to the bathroom.


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## djd66 (Mar 14, 2020)

Wow, what a bummer.  Would have been nice if Sunday was the last day of lift service. 

I completely understand the policy and decision. I really hope this thing is not as bad as they are say it could be. Everyone on the zone, please stay healthy!


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I dunno, I just heard on twitter that RASTA was suspending all lift and food service operations in the Brandon Gap.



Hah! But you know the parking lot will be full there. 


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Does the closure affect the the uphill policy too? Don’t wanna be a rule breaker but...I don’t want to be done yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I’d say uphill is a VERY safe social distance. See ya on the skin track! (My response is only my opinion!) 


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## teleo (Mar 14, 2020)

This is nuts.  Just stepped outside my condo and there are mutiple cats on the hill.  So this was quick.  Skinning time.  And we'll have some groomed runs.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

Three Words.  Mad River Glen.


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## teleo (Mar 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Three Words.  Mad River Glen.


Thought of that.  And they have the social distancing advantage with the single. But it will be packed with sb closed.  Skin sunday, mrg mon if still open.


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

teleo said:


> This is nuts.  Just stepped outside my condo and there are mutiple cats on the hill.  So this was quick.  Skinning time.  And we'll have some groomed runs.



Skinning season starts early. Glad to hear there’ll be one last day of cord. 


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## ktrerotola (Mar 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Three Words.  Mad River Glen.



Now the safest chair out there. There goes the plethora of mad cards on Front Porch Forum! 


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## teleo (Mar 14, 2020)

Would sort of be cool if all resorts closed in north america except MRG running only the single with basebox closed.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

Yup that is also an option.  it was discussed.  This is all so Fucked up.  I can't even understand what is going on.  I need another drink.


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## tumbler (Mar 14, 2020)

This sucks. Wanted one more day. First time Win overruled on a decision. That’s got to be tough. Fun day to end on.


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## WinS (Mar 14, 2020)

I have always tried to be open and honest with all of you. I am still learning the details of what will be happening so until I do I will not be posting. Hope you understand.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yup that is also an option.  it was discussed.  This is all so Fucked up.  I can't even understand what is going on.  I need another drink.



I legitimately don’t understand the logic in the timing of this. Would staying open until the end of Sunday really made a difference? I just poured myself another glass of wine. 


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## teleo (Mar 14, 2020)

WinS said:


> I have always tried to be open and honest with all of you. I am still learning the details of what will be happening so until I do I will not be posting. Hope you understand.


Welcome to corporate life.  Sympathies.
  We all hope you survive it and stick with it.  Crazy times.


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## Dickc (Mar 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Three Words.  Mad River Glen.



While riding single might be safe, consider the lifty that has to bump the chair.  All it will take is one sick individual that breaths his (or her) way to make that employee ill.  The only safe chairs would be HS Quads with the center two gates closed so only two skiers load, and load on the outside of the chair.  No bubbles, no gondolas.


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## Dickc (Mar 14, 2020)

WinS said:


> I have always tried to be open and honest with all of you. I am still learning the details of what will be happening so until I do I will not be posting. Hope you understand.



I am impressed you actually took time out of what must be a real busy time for you to post.  I FULLY understand why you cannot comment.  Stay safe and healthy Win.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

Yup it was Tumbler.  Skied all day.   Then I sat in Win;s new chairs on the plaza and drank several Fiddleheads and talk to all kinds of people.  After that was the infamous Bob Father car bomb party for St paddys day.  
Kind of fitting that between Friday the 13th and the Ides of March on Sunday the ski season ended.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

I will throw this out there.  Tomorrow many of us are thinking that we will skin up to Allyns tomorrow and have a drink in  honor or memory of this season.  One last hurrah.  Not sure of timing yet.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

Really hard not to be cynical about this: get out of jail free card for the ski operators. Cut bait after the most profitable part of the season passes, especially so in a bad snow year. Expenses go to zero. Everyone with any advanced purchase skiing, including pass holders feeling ripped off. Not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia. Closing the lodges, but keeping the lifts running is actually biologically sensible if you're not simply greedy and motivated by the bottom line. Bullshit. Alterra and Vail and the losers making the decisions will not soon live down the loss of trust. The fuckers. F U Rusty. You suck.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

#HatingSugarbush

#RustyIsAPussy

#FakeVirtueSignalingIsASin


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> Really hard not to be cynical about this: get out of jail free card for the ski operators. Cut bait after the most profitable part of the season passes, especially so in a bad snow year. Expenses go to zero. Everyone with any advanced purchase skiing, including pass holders feeling ripped off. Not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia. Closing the lodges, but keeping the lifts running is actually biologically sensible if you're not simply greedy and motivated by the bottom line. Bullshit. Alterra and Vail and the losers making the decisions will not soon live down the loss of trust. The fuckers. F U Rusty. You suck.



Skiing unless it is at a place like Mountain Creek which is near an area with many cases generally is very safe. I totally agree with you on this. I was excited about the acquisition but now, not so much... 


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2020)

if you open the sugarbush app the message from Rusty in on there now.,,,,,


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Skiing unless it is at a place like Mountain Creek which is near an area with many cases generally is very safe. I totally agree with you on this. I was excited about the acquisition but now, not so much...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You are a fucking idiot.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

Rusty: "One of our ethics is this idea of being brutally honest and transparent, and hold me to that"

Call Rusty's cell phone 760 914 0333.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> Rusty: "One of our ethics is this idea of being brutally honest and transparent, and hold me to that"
> 
> Call Rusty's cell phone 760 914 0333.



LOL 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> Really hard not to be cynical about this: get out of jail free card for the ski operators. Cut bait after the most profitable part of the season passes, especially so in a bad snow year. Expenses go to zero. Everyone with any advanced purchase skiing, including pass holders feeling ripped off. Not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia. Closing the lodges, but keeping the lifts running is actually biologically sensible if you're not simply greedy and motivated by the bottom line. Bullshit. Alterra and Vail and the losers making the decisions will not soon live down the loss of trust. The fuckers. F U Rusty. You suck.



Or the people in charge realize that there is potentially going to be a severe restriction in the movement of people in this country real soon and it's prudent to preserve whatever cash reserves they have to survive for hopefully a better season next year.

You can spin the lifts and tell people to bag lunch at their cars and piss in the woods.  Those same people are still moving about from other states to get to the mountain; stopping for gas and coffee on the way to the hill and potentially infecting others. 

The US government is going to want our citizens to pause almost all travel and avoid contact with others for the near future.  That's what is happening every where else in the world.  Not sure why folks think it won't happen here. 



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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

That is the cell phone he gave out at the Sugarbush event when Alterra was introduced. It is valid, unless he was just being deceitful then too.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Or the people in charge realize that there is potentially going to be a severe restriction in the movement of people in this country real soon and it's prudent to preserve whatever cash reserves they have to survive for hopefully a better season next year.
> 
> You can spin the lifts and tell people to bag lunch at their cars and piss in the woods.  Those same people are still moving about from other states to get to the mountain; stopping for gas and coffee on the way to the hill and potentially infecting others.
> 
> ...



Skiing is an outdoor activity. Fundamentally they can continue, but choose not to, sucka. You are a fool if you think it's based on virtue. It's based on dollars, and you pre-payers just got f**ed.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

Win, my quad pack going to be good next year? Ha! If you're a man you'd say yes.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2020)

“If you’re a man”? Get fucked dude. This isn’t normal circumstances. Get over your $200 loss.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> Skiing is an outdoor activity. Fundamentally they can continue, but choose not to, sucka. You are a fool if you think it's based on virtue. It's based on dollars, and you pre-payers just got f**ed.


Get back to me in a few days......

The decision was going to be made for them

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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> “If you’re a man”? Get fucked dude. This isn’t normal circumstances. Get over your $200 loss.



Dude, it is at their discretion that they could hold the quad packs valid into next year. If the closure is virtuous, they'd carry the passes forward into next year.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Mad River closing after tomorrow


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2020)

It’s about your petulant tone in these extraordinary circumstances. You sound pathetic.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> It’s about your petulant tone in these extraordinary circumstances. You sound pathetic.



I sound pissed because I am. I believe that this is a cynical move masquerading as virtue.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2020)

And you’re wrong.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> And you’re wrong.



You're a fool, klownboy.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> I sound pissed because I am. I believe that this is a cynical move masquerading as virtue.


The whole freaking world is shutting down around you and somehow you are blaming the ski industry for "virtue signalling" and screwing their customers?

And you are bent about an unused four pack?  (You did have at least 100 days to use that up already BTW)

AND

You want Sugarbush to build you a fancy Glen Ellen lodge?

You serious Clark?

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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



teleo said:


> This is nuts.  Just stepped outside my condo and there are mutiple cats on the hill.  So this was quick.  Skinning time.  And we'll have some groomed runs.



Like Burke, the thing that is stunning is the lack of notice.  It just happened. At least Burke skiers got today and knew last night this was it. I thought Alterra was open tomorrow but guess not.  

Boyne Resorts still going. 

I feel terrible for all the seasonal staff now out of work.  

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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Heading up to SR and the Loaf tomorrow. Hopefully they stay open a bit longer. Can’t really trust anybody right now. 


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

The ski areas appreciate apologists. They are so appreciative that you are so easily manipulated. Bless your hearts.


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## flakeydog (Mar 14, 2020)

This sucks beyond belief. Likely a Corp decision but best case was prob a Monday closure anyway. I am also pretty sure Sugarbush and any other resort closing now is not going to come out if this better financially. As bad as it is for us, this is the nightmare scenario for them. Anyone in a people oriented business is shitting bricks right now.  I don’t care what conspiracy theory you may subscribe to, there is no upside here, period.  It’s obvious from some posts here that in times like these you see those that think of themselves first and those that consider the greater good. We need more of the latter to get through this. Like most things in life, as much as this might suck for you or me you generally don’t have to look too far to find someone worse off.


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## JimG. (Mar 14, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> It’s obvious from some posts here that in times like these you see those that think of themselves first and those that consider the greater good. We need more of the latter to get through this. Like most things in life, as much as this might suck for you or me you generally don’t have to look too far to find someone worse off.



Bless you sir.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Bless you sir.
> 
> The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.



The Soviets would love the sentiment. This isn't selfishness. This is practical utility speaking.

I have an immunocompromised daughter in strict self isolation. I fear for her life and her peril is real. In no way do ski area closures make me feel the slightest bit better. I see it as cynical in an ugly way with no beneficial effect at all.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Orca said:


> The Soviets would love the sentiment. This isn't selfishness. This is practical utility speaking.
> 
> I have an immunocompromised daughter in strict self isolation. I fear for her life and her peril is real. In no way do ski area closures make me feel the slightest bit better. I see it as cynical in an ugly way with no beneficial effect at all.



I wish all the best to your daughter. I’m curious to see what Win would do if Alterra didn’t own Sugarbush. I’m sure he would eventually shut it down, but I’m sure it wouldn’t be with such short notice. I don’t think anywhere is going to make it this season. Maybe Killington, but I would set my hopes very low. I was excited to ski the glacier again this spring. 


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## Orca (Mar 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I wish all the best to your daughter. I’m curious to see what Win would do if Alterra didn’t own Sugarbush. I’m sure he would eventually shut it down, but I’m sure it wouldn’t be with such short notice. I don’t think anywhere is going to make it this season. Maybe Killington, but I would set my hopes very low. I was excited to ski the glacier again this spring.



Thank you, SB87. Much appreciated. Don't let the folks on the forum get you down. You write exceedingly well for your age, and your measured restraint in the face of criticism is a credit to your character. Keep it up.

This season will be a disappointment. It is deserved that we deliver the message to the owners and decision makers that they are acting in bad faith.


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## Howitzer (Mar 14, 2020)

WinS said:


> I have always tried to be open and honest with all of you. I am still learning the details of what will be happening so until I do I will not be posting. Hope you understand.



Thank you for taking the time to update this forum in what must be a very difficult time. The honesty is very much appreciated.

My understanding is that the governor of Colorado ordered all resorts in the state to suspend operations from March 15 to March 22. At that point, Vail and Alterra had no choice but to pull the plug. The ability to remain calm will get us through this and hopefully we can all live to ski another day.


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## Tonyr (Mar 15, 2020)

Orca said:


> Really hard not to be cynical about this: get out of jail free card for the ski operators. Cut bait after the most profitable part of the season passes, especially so in a bad snow year. Expenses go to zero. Everyone with any advanced purchase skiing, including pass holders feeling ripped off. Not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia. Closing the lodges, but keeping the lifts running is actually biologically sensible if you're not simply greedy and motivated by the bottom line. Bullshit. Alterra and Vail and the losers making the decisions will not soon live down the loss of trust. The fuckers. F U Rusty. You suck.



The Governor of Colorado closed down all ski resorts in the state via executive order, whether you agree with his decision or not that has a ripple effect across the entire industry. Our thoughts should be with the local businesses in each ski town (and in general for that matter) that relies on visitors to survive. Restaurants and most retailers are really hurting over this, we are going to see lots of businesses around the world close by the time this is all said and done.


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## crazy (Mar 15, 2020)

Orca said:


> Really hard not to be cynical about this: get out of jail free card for the ski operators. Cut bait after the most profitable part of the season passes, especially so in a bad snow year. Expenses go to zero. Everyone with any advanced purchase skiing, including pass holders feeling ripped off. *Not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia. Closing the lodges, but keeping the lifts running is actually biologically sensible if you're not simply greedy and motivated by the bottom line.* Bullshit. Alterra and Vail and the losers making the decisions will not soon live down the loss of trust. The fuckers. F U Rusty. You suck.



Fuck you and your bullshit. There absolutely is a chance of catching COVID-19 on the slopes, or rather, on the chair, in the bathroom, in the ticket line. Not to mention you are putting all of the employees at risk. What about the person who cleans the restroom? Or the people who work the chairlifts? What you are saying is pure selfishness. 



Orca said:


> Win, my quad pack going to be good next year? Ha! If you're a man you'd say yes.



"If you're a man"...what does that even mean? It's hard to be sympathetic when you waited until mid-March to use your quad pack. In some unlucky years the season is already over by this point. Sure, I hope that Sugarbush makes good in some way pass products that went unused this year next season, but why not be polite about it? 

Win is obviously going through a lot right now, I'm sure he feels really shitty already and is trying to do the best he can by his staff, who by the way, might be prematurely out of a job. Hmm...prematurely out of a job, or you not being able to use up your quad pack. Which do I feel worse about? 



flakeydog said:


> This sucks beyond belief. Likely a Corp decision but best case was prob a Monday closure anyway. I am also pretty sure Sugarbush and any other resort closing now is not going to come out if this better financially. As bad as it is for us, this is the nightmare scenario for them. Anyone in a people oriented business is shitting bricks right now.  I don’t care what conspiracy theory you may subscribe to, there is no upside here, period.  It’s obvious from some posts here that in times like these you see those that think of themselves first and those that consider the greater good. We need more of the latter to get through this. Like most things in life, as much as this might suck for you or me you generally don’t have to look too far to find someone worse off.



Fully agreed. Wise words.



Orca said:


> The Soviets would love the sentiment. This isn't selfishness. This is practical utility speaking.
> 
> I have an immunocompromised daughter in strict self isolation. I fear for her life and her peril is real. In no way do ski area closures make me feel the slightest bit better. I see it as cynical in an ugly way with no beneficial effect at all.



You are a fucking idiot. You have an immunocompromised daughter in strict self isolation, and yet you claimed earlier that you are "not likely to catch CoV on the slopes, and it might be a good medicine for housebound claustrophobia." That's wrong, you absolutely can watch COVID-19 on the slopes. How fucking selfish are you to compromise your daughter so that you can get a few more turns in this season? 

I have a loved one with a pre-existing condition that puts them at heightened risk if they get COVID-19. I've just decided not to see this loved one unless I have self-isolated for 14 or more days without symptoms. Do you know why? Because I prioritize their health over things like seeing my friends or going skiing. 

Jesus, it's crazy how selfish and entitled some people are.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2020)

Seriously. For him to be such a shortsighted selfish prick and then reveal he has an immunocompromised person in his immediate family is absolutely wild. The depth of the selfishness among some of the people on this board is insane.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 15, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

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## ktrerotola (Mar 15, 2020)

Well. Killington is now closed March 15-22 and sounds like today will be MRG’s last day. 


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## WWF-VT (Mar 15, 2020)

FWIW - skiing would have really sucked today.  Cold, windy, 20 degrees and the snow they groomed last night is ice packed corduroy.


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## ktrerotola (Mar 15, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - skiing would have really sucked today.  Cold, windy, 20 degrees and the snow they groomed last night is ice packed corduroy.



Skinned up Ellen today and all chatters on the way down. Icey AF. But the sun (and sweat) felt good. 


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## Skid (Mar 15, 2020)

Orca said:


> Win, my quad pack going to be good next year? Ha! If you're a man you'd say yes.


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## MorningWoods (Mar 15, 2020)

ktrerotola said:


> Skinned up Ellen today and all chatters on the way down. Icey AF. But the sun (and sweat) felt good. View attachment 26600
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Was nice to be outside. But man it was eerie being on fresh, albeit it frozen, corduroy without a soul around In the middle of the day on Sunday in March. Looking at the long range, looks like a crappy run for the next couple weeks. 


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## flakeydog (Mar 15, 2020)

Stages of narcissistic grief:

Disbelief- This is not happening, no one does this to me.  You are all crazy
Denial- I don’t care what you read/saw.  It’s not true because I (and only I) would know (because I know everything)
Deflection- they are doing this to save money or screw someone over 
Blame- it’s (fill in the blank) fault because they suck and just want to f%#k people over for no reason 
Victim stage- they are doing this to ME.  They don’t care about ME. Blah blah blah, me me me. (insert red herring about how bad my life is because of this here)
Lashing out- you all don’t get it! I was screwed and you all don’t care. You are all probably in on it. 
Revenge- no one does this to me and gets away with it!  If you were a man you would compensate me ( but the hell with everyone else!) 

Take care of yourselves and those around you. This ain’t getting better anytime soon. Let’s not make this harder than it needs to be.


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## JimG. (Mar 15, 2020)

Orca said:


> The Soviets would love the sentiment. This isn't selfishness. This is practical utility speaking.
> 
> I have an immunocompromised daughter in strict self isolation. I fear for her life and her peril is real. In no way do ski area closures make me feel the slightest bit better. I see it as cynical in an ugly way with no beneficial effect at all.



I try to avoid hyperbole but you are truly a world class moron.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2020)

Win just announced that your quad pack is good til 12/24/20. Good enough for you you asshole?


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## SkierDude (Mar 15, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Win just announced that your quad pack is good til 12/24/20. Good enough for you you asshole?



Hey,
I know Orca has said some egregious things, but maybe we should all try to calm down just a tad. Jim said in another thread just now that nothing will improve if all we do is yell and insult each other. I agree with you don't get me wrong, but I think if we try and talk slightly more civilized we will be more productive and maybe even Orca will stop posting because you are feeding him fuel to argue with you.

Cheers,


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2020)

Disagree. People on the wrong side of this issue need to be berated and shamed at all opportunities.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 15, 2020)

Everyone, just chill. It’s obviously a stressful time and the best thing we can do is just help everyone get through this while ensuring that they are healthy. It will pass by soon enough. Have a little respect in times like these, and all times for that matter. 


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## Newpylong (Mar 15, 2020)

And people wonder why other ski area representatives do not participate here or other forums...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Everyone, just chill. It’s obviously a stressful time and the best thing we can do is just help everyone get through this while ensuring that they are healthy. It will pass by soon enough. Have a little respect in times like these, and all times for that matter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Go to smuggs asshole.


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## tumbler (Mar 15, 2020)

Big ripple effect on the local businesses here. Let’s do our part and support them.  Buy some gear in the ski shops, sales are underway. Get takeout food and keep spending. Support the resort when anything is able to reopen there.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 15, 2020)

tumbler said:


> *Get takeout food*



I'll have the coronavirus soup to start, and viral venison for my entree.


I do feel for the small business operators of America, but the very last behaviour I'll be engaging in is ordering from a restaurant over the next month.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2020)

dont recall my specific source because ive been consuming an unhealthy amount of journalism this weekend, but i read earlier that cooked food does not pose much of a risk, and if you limit the delivery/takeout interaction as much as possible its relatively low risk behavior. people gotta eat. 

that being said, we are ready to cook for the next two weeks. our little freezer is stocked with meat. we got a sous vide recently, which is nice.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Big ripple effect on the local businesses here. Let’s do our part and support them.  Buy some gear in the ski shops, sales are underway. Get takeout food and keep spending. Support the resort when anything is able to reopen there.



I picked up a new pair of skis at Alpine Options on Saturday. Was looking for something to replace my probably about 10 year old Volkl AC-50s for use on those firmer days (which this year was far more than I would have liked). Last weekend I demo'd the Volkl Deacon 84s (essentially the replacement for the AC50) from the mountain. Went into AO this Saturday and told them what I had and what I was looking for. The Deacon was one of the choices they suggested, but also said the Salomon S-Force Bold was worth checking out and might pleasantly surprise me. They set me up with a demo pair of them and I ran back to the mountain for a few more runs (having no idea those demo runs would end up being my probably last runs of the season). The skis really impressed me. They had no problem holding an edge even on the scraped off spots of Ripcord where you could see the groomer treads. They were also a bit lighter and more playful than the Deacons. Anyway, went back to AO and said I wanted them. They didn't have any brand new ones left in the size I wanted, but gave me a great deal on the demo pair (same bindings as the retail version and had only been taken out a few days this year).

Quite a bit of inventory still left though and I was thinking about them (and other local businesses) today and how much they will be impacted by this.


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## phin (Mar 16, 2020)

Are unused quad pack tickets null and void now?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2020)

phin said:


> Are unused quad pack tickets null and void now?



honored til 12/24/20 per win's 3/15 email


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## phin (Mar 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> honored til 12/24/20 per win's 3/15 email



Cool, thanks man.


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## ducky (Mar 16, 2020)

They are still grooming.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2020)

So it appears.  For the Skinners?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2020)

for the skinners and maybe to pay their groomers for another paycheck?


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## gregnye (Mar 16, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Big ripple effect on the local businesses here. Let’s do our part and support them.  Buy some gear in the ski shops, sales are underway. Get takeout food and keep spending. Support the resort when anything is able to reopen there.



Why should I keep supporting businesses that are open? Obviously the ones that are open currently do not care about their employee's wellbeing otherwise they would also be closed.

If you are not closed right now and are not a supermarket or gas station, you do not deserve my money. 

And don't argue "But if the businesses aren't open, hourly-workers will be unemployed. True, that's part of the problem. Everyone deserves paid sick time in this country (including myself--I get no sick time)." I don't support this foolishness of making minimum wage people come in with no paid sick time just to "support struggling businesses".

People first, economy second. End of rant.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2020)

gregnye said:


> I get no sick time



Maybe "get" a new job.


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## tumbler (Mar 16, 2020)

ducky said:


> They are still grooming.



My guess is they are using the cats to help strip the hill of all the operations stuff that is still there and are putting the tiller down.  They are not grooming for the sake of grooming or for the skinners.


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## cdskier (Mar 16, 2020)

tumbler said:


> My guess is they are using the cats to help strip the hill of all the operations stuff that is still there and are putting the tiller down.  They are not grooming for the sake of grooming or for the skinners.



That's what I was thinking as well...


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## icecoast1 (Mar 16, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Why should I keep supporting businesses that are open? Obviously the ones that are open currently do not care about their employee's wellbeing otherwise they would also be closed.
> 
> If you are not closed right now and are not a supermarket or gas station, you do not deserve my money.
> 
> ...



If small businesses close and go out of business cause of this, there will be less jobs with the benefits you say every employer should provide


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## Harvey (Mar 16, 2020)

Gang we are all in the same boat.  A few industries will be able to capitalize on the fear, but guaranteed that growth is negative.

When the season ends many lifties and low wage earners go on unemployment.  At my home mountain, those I spoke to are ok with the end of the season.


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## Hawk (Mar 16, 2020)

Boston and Cambridge just shut down Inspectional services and all Construction projects.  I guess I can go home now.  Nothing to do.


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## tumbler (Mar 16, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Boston and Cambridge just shut down Inspectional services and all Construction projects.  I guess I can go home now.  Nothing to do.



I had not heard about Cambridge.  It will be statewide by tomorrow.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> honored til 12/24/20 per win's 3/15 email



That's cool and I would have liked to have seen it be good the whole 2021 season. I'll get over it and hope we get a ton of snow early next year. 

Also, wont ME still be closed? If so that's another bummer. I don't go up there until after ME opens so I get to ski both mountains. 

also bummed as I was going to go this coming weekend. Our last big trip for the year.

I agree with the decision, lets hope we get a reopening or a kick ass year next year!


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## djd66 (Mar 16, 2020)

Just imagine how much this would suck if it all of a sudden dumped 24”!

I wonder if the Lincoln Limo is available to rent? That has always been on my bucket list to do one day at ME in the spring.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Just imagine how much this would suck if it all of a sudden dumped 24”!
> 
> I wonder if the Cabin Cat is available to rent? That has always been on my bucket list to do one day at ME in the spring.



tahoe. so sad. first massive storm of the winter on the night they close everything.


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## JimG. (Mar 16, 2020)

Snowfall now totally predictable.


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## Smellytele (Mar 17, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Why should I keep supporting businesses that are open? Obviously the ones that are open currently do not care about their employee's wellbeing otherwise they would also be closed.
> 
> If you are not closed right now and are not a supermarket or gas station, you do not deserve my money.
> 
> ...



what about the trucking companies? The producers of food, the people who make the packaging for food, The company that fixes the machines that produce the packaging and food? Just to name a few. All business is connected in the long run and it isn't easy just saying only supermarkets and gas stations should be open...


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> tahoe. so sad. first massive storm of the winter on the night they close everything.


One of my Best friends moved to Squaw this year from Sunday River.  I can't imagine how frustrating it has been for him.  They skied Mt Rose Sunday and Homewood is still open but WTF.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 17, 2020)

Warren Store is closing this afternoon


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 17, 2020)

Hyde Away closed.
Worthy Burger going to take-out only
Lawson's closed


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## icecoast1 (Mar 17, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Snowfall now totally predictable.



Its inevitable.  The last two bad winters like this one in the last decade have always had late season storms right after resorts close.  Was looking like a shift in the patterns late month/early april, not sure if it's still the case


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## WinS (Mar 17, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Just imagine how much this would suck if it all of a sudden dumped 24”!
> 
> I wonder if the Lincoln Limo is available to rent? That has always been on my bucket list to do one day at ME in the spring.



Unfortunately, no.  We are not running anything for guests other than our water and waste water operations and property management services until further notice.  The mountain is open for skinning but watch out for mountain operations clearing the hill of equipment.


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## WinS (Mar 17, 2020)

tumbler said:


> My guess is they are using the cats to help strip the hill of all the operations stuff that is still there and are putting the tiller down.  They are not grooming for the sake of grooming or for the skinners.



That is correct.


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## erdb1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Hi, I'm a season pass holder at SB. I missed the opportunity to get a last ski in on the weekend. Psychologically, I'm just not ready to finish the season, I need that last run) I don't have AT gear, and I'm not going shopping now. Is it OK to walk up the mountain on the side and ski down?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2020)

erdb1 said:


> Hi, I'm a season pass holder at SB. I missed the opportunity to get a last ski in on the weekend. Psychologically, I'm just not ready to finish the season, I need that last run) I don't have AT gear, and I'm not going shopping now. Is it OK to walk up the mountain on the side and ski down?



See Win’s post above


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## WinS (Mar 17, 2020)

erdb1 said:


> Hi, I'm a season pass holder at SB. I missed the opportunity to get a last ski in on the weekend. Psychologically, I'm just not ready to finish the season, I need that last run) I don't have AT gear, and I'm not going shopping now. Is it OK to walk up the mountain on the side and ski down?



Yes. Not the best way to hike up but go for it.


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## erdb1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Great, thanks.


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## Hawk (Mar 18, 2020)

I saw on the news that Killington gave all the surplus food to their laid off employees and food banks.  That is a nice gesture.


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## skiur (Mar 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I saw on the news that Killington gave all the surplus food to their laid off employees and food banks.  That is a nice gesture.



http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45884


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## machski (Mar 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I saw on the news that Killington gave all the surplus food to their laid off employees and food banks.  That is a nice gesture.


Sunday River did the same.  Nice to see, it would have just gone to waste otherwise with the E-Brake ending of the season.  I can't imagine how much food they had on hand at any resort, all of them should have done similar.

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## teleo (Mar 18, 2020)

Sugarbush doing the same today in the courtyard.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 19, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/328d70fd53f68b8334edd6ea75ccc356.jpg[/
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/47555b2a47d69400dc9d6f86405e5ef5.jpg


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## Hawk (Mar 19, 2020)

Dam going to be cold this weekend.  I was hoping it would be warm and ski nice soft snow.  Skinning for hard scratchy snow is a bummer.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

at least its an option for you...


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## Hawk (Mar 19, 2020)

What is all the snow in PA gone Jimmy?  Just go to the nearest place and get some turns.  No one is going to stop you.   No one is around.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

unfortunately my local Viail owned place is on private property and after catching hikers Sunday morning they drove groomers down the slopes to mess up the snow and make it undesirable to ski...

its mostly melted now anyways 

I had strongly considered skinning Sunday Dawn Patrol but I knew the potential to get caught was high.  So I bailed...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> unfortunately my local Viail owned place is on private property and after catching hikers Sunday morning they drove groomers down the slopes to mess up the snow and make it undesirable to ski...



You sure about that?  I ask because when ski areas are stripping slopes after the season they normally drive snowcats up and down the slopes like that when getting items.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/328d70fd53f68b8334edd6ea75ccc356.jpg[/
> [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/47555b2a47d69400dc9d6f86405e5ef5.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Looks nice...and spooky.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You sure about that?  I ask because when ski areas are stripping slopes after the season they normally drive snowcats up and down the slopes like that when getting items.



I saw a photo on Facebook of I think it was a PA resort where the groomers literally plowed crisscross lines down every trail. Not sure if that's perhaps jimmy's local mountain. Definitely looked intentional to ruin the skinning/skiing option.


----------



## tumbler (Mar 19, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/328d70fd53f68b8334edd6ea75ccc356.jpg[/
> [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200319/47555b2a47d69400dc9d6f86405e5ef5.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This makes me sad.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You sure about that?  I ask because when ski areas are stripping slopes after the season they normally drive snowcats up and down the slopes like that when getting items.




100% intentional per the grooming crew at the direction of the  mountain manager, who is known to be a dick/hardass

adding picture


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 19, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

I hiked Wednesday it was very strange for sure


----------



## Newpylong (Mar 19, 2020)

I can't imagine burning diesel to do something like that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2020)

Is there real liability for skinning after you close for the season & vacate your property?


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I can't imagine burning diesel to do something like that.




see my comment about mountain manager...   I bet he was waiting to catch people.

their take even when owned by snowtime was that its private property and when they're closed you're trespassing

whatever...  

If it was state or national forest I think it'd be different.  Although A Basin was asked to close uphill to comply with govenors shutdown of ski areas


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## mister moose (Mar 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> 100% intentional per the grooming crew at the direction of the  mountain manager, who is known to be a dick/hardass
> 
> adding picture
> 
> View attachment 26612


I see a ribbon...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

:lol:

Here's the current state of affairs... uke:

https://www.skiroundtop.com/live-cameras


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## skiur (Mar 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Here's the current state of affairs... uke:
> 
> https://www.skiroundtop.com/live-cameras



When was the first picture taken?


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

last Sunday morning, which was the previously determined closing day.


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## slatham (Mar 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> 100% intentional per the grooming crew at the direction of the  mountain manager, who is known to be a dick/hardass
> 
> adding picture
> 
> View attachment 26612



Is that Roundtop? Looks steeper than I remember. And what a stupid ass move.


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## Domeskier (Mar 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Is that Roundtop? Looks steeper than I remember.



At first glance it looked to me like a pic of OL.


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## JimG. (Mar 19, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Dam going to be cold this weekend.  I was hoping it would be warm and ski nice soft snow.  Skinning for hard scratchy snow is a bummer.



You didn't hear? Winter has arrived!


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Tomorrow looks awful. Thunderstorms and 61 immediately followed by a freeze. Well, at least I’m not missing out... 


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## Cornhead (Mar 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You didn't hear? Winter has arrived!


Lol, hey don't be surprised if we actually get snow before March is over. Our biggest ever snowstorms locally have been in March. The Blizzard of 93, and Stella. 36", and 37" respectively.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2020)

Yes Roundtop and LOL definitely not OL

It's my little slice of heaven from December to March.  

Sent from my SM-G973U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2020)

Well this is downright shitty...


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Mar 20, 2020)

Well, even if everything stayed open, I don’t think it would be good at all this weekend. Taken from the GMX webcam: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## slatham (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Well this is downright shitty...
> 
> View attachment 26615



YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! WTF. String them up......


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

slatham said:


> YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! WTF. String them up......



Complete assholes but this is only the beginning.  Small crimes like this arent going to be given the time of day


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## skiur (Mar 20, 2020)

I have to worry about my ski house now, over the summer there is basically nothing in it so not that worried, but it has everything in it right now, and the town is a ghost town so I worry that when I come back up someone will have cleaned it out.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 20, 2020)

jesus...  what a bunch of assholes


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Well this is downright shitty...
> 
> View attachment 26615



I am surprised we have not heard of more of this.


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## Howitzer (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Well this is downright shitty...
> 
> View attachment 26615



Security Cameras?


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## prsboogie (Mar 20, 2020)

Howitzer said:


> Security Cameras?


They were down with a virus! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## ScottySkis (Mar 20, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised we have not heard of more of this.



I saw it on few different facecrap ski and snowboard pages
Very sad for everyone who stuff was stolen


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## ducky (Mar 22, 2020)

Too much pressure on responders:

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020...vz_Ui8f4pCRs3WIX-mqt4YLkQ0ttL_XNaIXptOi1BGM-w


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 27, 2020)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 27, 2020)

1995/96 news articles 


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## pinnoke (Mar 28, 2020)

HaHa...Free Press writes (start of 5th paragraph in above full article "top speed - 11,000 feet per minute..." WOW, that's FAST!


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 28, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> HaHa...Free Press writes (start of 5th paragraph in above full article "top speed - 11,000 feet per minute..." WOW, that's FAST!



Lol. Noticed that too. It’s supposed to be 1,100. 


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## MorningWoods (Mar 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Lol. Noticed that too. It’s supposed to be 1,100.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No trail maps on the safety bar though. Must have come later. 


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 29, 2020)

Apologies if this has already been discussed before. I don't get Sugarbush emails anymore for some reason (despite being a passholder for years), so I don't know if anything has been announced. Are the deadlines for the Ikon Pass still the original ones? I'm just sort of a little hesitant to put down 900 bucks per person in my family right now when I don't know when we'll be able to get on a plane again (or heck, the way things are going, even cross state boundaries for reasons other than just emergency home maintenance). I can't imagine I'm the only person feeling this way. I'm sort of wondering if the thing to do is just wait it out to the fall and then pick up relatively cheap pass to Bolton or something.


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## JimG. (Mar 29, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Apologies if this has already been discussed before. I don't get Sugarbush emails anymore for some reason (despite being a passholder for years), so I don't know if anything has been announced. Are the deadlines for the Ikon Pass still the original ones? I'm just sort of a little hesitant to put down 900 bucks per person in my family right now when I don't know when we'll be able to get on a plane again (or heck, the way things are going, even cross state boundaries for reasons other than just emergency home maintenance). I can't imagine I'm the only person feeling this way. I'm sort of wondering if the thing to do is just wait it out to the fall and then pick up relatively cheap pass to Bolton or something.



I've mentioned this before. 

Maybe it's unfair to the season pass and megapass providers that people want more time to decide if a season pass for 20-21 makes sense or perhaps they don't want people to think about it too much and just pull the trigger and buy. Or maybe they want the early discount deadlines to pass and then people will have to pay more.

They are going to lose season pass business because people will not just plop down $1000 or so on the hope there will be skiing next season. And some then will not buy because if they buy later the price will be higher. And who knows if people will be able to fly and how much more will that cost?

I'm glad my deadlines are June 12th the earliest but even then who knows. I think ski areas are in for a rough ride.


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## NYDB (Mar 29, 2020)

Win - great timing on cashing out!


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## mbedle (Mar 29, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Win - great timing on cashing out!



Thats rough... lol


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## skiur (Mar 29, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Thats rough... lol



But true....he is still in charge though so. ....


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## Hawk (Mar 30, 2020)

Already put my money down.  I have faith that we will be skiing.  I am not going to loose faith no matter what anybody says.
I do/did in the past, a good amount of construction for the Bio tech industry.  Novartis, Biogen, Charles River, etc.  I still have relationships with a bunch of people in the industry.   These people are saying to me off the record that most likely by the fall they will at least have a much better understanding.  They might even have a remedy with a few breaks.  I will take what they say over the news wires any day.  But I am not going to sit here and get all depressed.  I can't.


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## tumbler (Mar 30, 2020)

Bought our passes too.


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## JimG. (Mar 30, 2020)

And I'm sure I'll buy mine too...but not until my deadlines.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2020)

JimG. said:


> And I'm sure I'll buy mine too...but not until my deadlines.



Yea...I'm a bit of a procrastinator. I plan to buy, but wait until a little closer to the deadline. Probably by mid-April I'll buy mine unless something drastically changes between now and then.


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## djd66 (Mar 30, 2020)

Given what is going on with the economy, I would not be surprised if they extended the deadline.  It is really tough for me to think about the possibility of next year's ski season being a bust.  This whole situation is pretty awful, but going a winter with no skiing - that would really suck!


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## tumbler (Mar 30, 2020)

Sure would.  At this moment I'm more concerned about going into golf season with no golf


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Sure would.  At this moment I'm more concerned about going into golf season with no golf



I wonder if the Golf courses would mind golfers "earning their turns" if the course is closed.  If you got out as a twosome and you both are walking, I don't see that as a big deal.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 30, 2020)

Except its trespassing and theft of services...

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## icecoast1 (Mar 30, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I wonder if the Golf courses would mind golfers "earning their turns" if the course is closed.  If you got out as a twosome and you both are walking, I don't see that as a big deal.




We're getting to the point where law enforcement is starting to enforce stuff like this, if they aren't doing it yet where you live, they will be soon


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## ducky (Mar 31, 2020)

Stowe just closed to uphill traffic. Tucks closed also as 200/400 skiers there this weekend were from out of state.


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## nhskier1969 (Mar 31, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> We're getting to the point where law enforcement is starting to enforce stuff like this, if they aren't doing it yet where you live, they will be soon




Guys don't get me wrong, I want to Pay.  Maybe and Honor system that you put money into a box or something like that at the first hole.  I know around me that some of the secondary courses would think it's a good idea.  At least it's some revenue coming in.


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## ScottySkis (Apr 2, 2020)

Dear Sugarbush and Mad River Glen Communities,

Over the last few difficult weeks we know that many of you have enjoyed skinning, hiking, skiing and riding at our mountains. While we fully embrace outdoor recreation, we have reluctantly made the decision to end uphill travel for the rest of this season at both Sugarbush and Mad River Glen, effective at dusk today. As we have become two of the last areas permitting this activity, we are concerned that this will now bring even more people into our community at a time when it is not in anyone’s best interest. Last weekend both Sugarbush and Mad River Glen saw a large volume of visitors traveling here from around the state and beyond. Though most were practicing social distancing we unfortunately understand that some may not have been following the proper guidelines. Given the favorable weather this weekend, we would anticipate even larger numbers if we don’t close uphill travel.

We know that outdoor exercise is something that we all enjoy and what is strongly recommended by the medical community and exempted under the Stay at Home order by Governor Scott. However, as the worst of the Coronavirus is still in front of us, we believe that this is the most appropriate action to take. Being good community members and looking out for the best interests of the community is a core value that we both hold. We thank you for your understanding and ask that you help us spread the word and keep people safe. We look forward to the return of normalcy. In the meantime, stay healthy.

All the best,

Matt & Win


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## ducky (Apr 2, 2020)

Good call.


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## stovepipe (Apr 2, 2020)

Watch  Now we will get a giant snow storm in April.   Has happened before


----------



## Dickc (Apr 2, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Watch  Now we will get a giant snow storm in April.   Has happened before



The best ever day of skiing in New England I have EVER had came late in the first week of April.  Blower powder at Stowe in 1976.  The snow was knee to mid thigh in depth and virtually no one was there.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 2, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Watch  Now we will get a giant snow storm in April.   Has happened before



Been snowing like crazy in the mountains here in Colorado which sucks big!  So you know you will get a dump and have to just watch.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 4, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> We're getting to the point where law enforcement is starting to enforce stuff like this, if they aren't doing it yet where you live, they will be soon



I guess you can't go golfing.  Especially in Rhode Island

https://www.foxnews.com/us/3-massac...de-island-coronavirus-quarantine-order-police


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 4, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I guess you can't go golfing.  Especially in Rhode Island
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/3-massac...de-island-coronavirus-quarantine-order-police



NH is thinking of actually opening their golf courses. 


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## dustyroads (Apr 5, 2020)

Win,
My wife and I were Senior Premium Pass Holders this year and the year(s) before. I logged into the Sugarbush and Ikon website to buy passes for next year at the discounted rate. The Bush website redirects me to the Ikon site. However, the Ikon site doesn't recognize me as a previous passholder. Can you tell me what to do to get the discounted rate?


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## icecoast1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> NH is thinking of actually opening their golf courses.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




They're open in Florida, but you have to maintain social distancing and can only share a cart with people you live with.


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## NickDanger (Apr 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Win,
> My wife and I were Senior Premium Pass Holders this year and the year(s) before. I logged into the Sugarbush and Ikon website to buy passes for next year at the discounted rate. The Bush website redirects me to the Ikon site. However, the Ikon site doesn't recognize me as a previous passholder. Can you tell me what to do to get the discounted rate?



Same thing happened to me. Call Sugarbush and they’ll email you a promo code.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Win,
> My wife and I were Senior Premium Pass Holders this year and the year(s) before. I logged into the Sugarbush and Ikon website to buy passes for next year at the discounted rate. The Bush website redirects me to the Ikon site. However, the Ikon site doesn't recognize me as a previous passholder. Can you tell me what to do to get the discounted rate?



I got an email a few weeks ago with the subject line "Renewal Discounts Now Available!" a while ago that had the discount code


----------



## Howitzer (Apr 5, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Win,
> My wife and I were Senior Premium Pass Holders this year and the year(s) before. I logged into the Sugarbush and Ikon website to buy passes for next year at the discounted rate. The Bush website redirects me to the Ikon site. However, the Ikon site doesn't recognize me as a previous passholder. Can you tell me what to do to get the discounted rate?



FYI any mention of the original April 22nd early deadline has been removed from the Ikon and Sugarbush websites. Essentially a deadline extension without explicitly phrasing it that way.


----------



## dustyroads (Apr 5, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> I got an email a few weeks ago with the subject line "Renewal Discounts Now Available!" a while ago that had the discount code



Yep, Found it in old email. Thanks.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Apr 5, 2020)

For quite a while I've been searching for footage/remaining parts of the North Ridge Double. It is kind of a "mystery lift" in that it it only lasted 14 years and was never relocated. It was built new by Poma and from what I can tell used their "Delta" drive model. The chairs were relocated to Village in 1995 when the lift was removed. You would think that the lift would be in good enough condition to relocate, but I guess it never happened. I have been looking for photos for quite a while and I think I found some. I have a picture of part of the drive as well as the lifting frames.  

If anyone has more information/pictures on this lift please post it in this thread or private message me. 
Thanks.


----------



## shadyjay (Apr 6, 2020)

I rode the old North Ridge once.... way back around 1991/92.  My cousin and I looked at (the original) GMX and saw the chairs flying up the hill and opted for a slower lift.  I couldn't understand how to get on it at that speed, so we took the Inverness to North Ridge.  Only things I remember about North Ridge were the slow ride, and the chairs coming down being at a much higher elevation than those going uphill, similar to the GMVS Poma setup.  Never realized that the old Village Double chairs came from the North Ridge double, but if it was a Poma, it makes sense, as the Village had nice Poma chairs up until the end, with comfortable padding.  

Later that day back in '91, we noticed the chairs slowed down in the terminals for the Green Mountain Express, so we decided to ride it.  I may have ridden North Ridge once or twice after that before it was replaced with the original GMX.


----------



## Newpylong (Apr 7, 2020)

That is a funny story and similar to mine of the Yankee Clipper at Mount Snow. I was told I would be riding a high speed lift at the time and was pretty nervous especially after seeing it run lol. I was much delighted to see the terminal slowdowns. This was the late 80s.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 8, 2020)

I am so bored, I go onto Sugarbush cams a couple times a day to watch the snow melt.  Speak of that, I hope Win turns on the Heavengate cam, Can watch the snow melt there too.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am so bored, I go onto Sugarbush cams a couple times a day to watch the snow melt.  Speak of that, I hope Win turns on the Heavengate cam, Can watch the snow melt there too.



I do the same thing. I was also disappointed when they turned off the HG cam.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 8, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am so bored, I go onto Sugarbush cams a couple times a day to watch the snow melt.  Speak of that, I hope Win turns on the Heavengate cam, Can watch the snow melt there too.



I've stopped watching as often as I was, it was bumming me out too much.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Apr 8, 2020)

So after over a year of on and off searching, I've finally found footage of the North Ridge Double. It's very minimal, but I learned that I was quite wrong about a few things. First of all, the chairs used were the Poma "teardrop" style double chairs, therefore, Village's chairs were not North Ridge's old chairs. Another thing I thought was that it had a top Delta drive, but it turns out that it had a bottom drive. I'm not sure what the model was as the motor room looks different than a typical Delta motor room. I'm still very surprised that it wasn't relocated as it was still very new at the time of removal.  

If anyone has more information or pictures relating to the lift, please post them. 
Thanks to shadyjay for helping me out as well.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Apr 8, 2020)

After closer examination, it looks like the drive is a Delta drive. Attached is a picture of what that type of drive looks like:


----------



## 1dog (Apr 9, 2020)

Bet you don't have this lift in your catalog 



https://www.facebook.com/misssnowitall/videos/687794132023352/?vh=e&d=n


----------



## cdskier (Apr 9, 2020)

1dog said:


> Bet you don't have this lift in your catalog
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/misssnowitall/videos/687794132023352/?vh=e&d=n



LOL. That might be one of the few new lift installs that gets completed this year!


----------



## teleo (Apr 10, 2020)

Bummer looking at the cams and realizing we'd just be arriving now under normal circumstances[emoji26][emoji24]


----------



## WinS (Apr 11, 2020)

teleo said:


> Bummer looking at the cams and realizing we'd just be arriving now under normal circumstances[emoji26][emoji24]



To break your heart further there was 11" of fresh powder on the summits this morning.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Apr 11, 2020)

WinS said:


> To break your heart further there was 11" of fresh powder on the summits this morning.



Win, my family always spends Easter at Sugarbush.  A top 5 ski weekend every year. I can't imagine the conditions are like on upper mtn.  We've had close to a month of non grooming, nobody skiing it with off and on snow filling in the nooks and crannies of the MTN. Now you tell us about 11 inches on upper Mtn.  You are breaking my heart.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 13, 2020)

Win -

You may be in the best position to relay the concerns of pretty much all passholders for next season.

If Ikon does not extend their renewal discounts and does not form some sort of plan for next season we simply will not be skiing in 20/21 (I'll go to Hawaii instead, my kids will love it).

Nothing is guaranteed but I simply will not flush $2,200 down the toilet.  I have to assume pass sales are utterly abysmal and low preseason funding will seriously threaten the ability for many areas to open next season.  Ikon's complete silence is not helping.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 13, 2020)

billo said:


> Win -
> 
> You may be in the best position to relay the concerns of pretty much all passholders for next season.
> 
> ...



Billo -

If there is no ski season 20/21, I don't think you will be going to Hawaii.

I do agree that it would be nice if Ikon did something to extend the renewal period.  If they don't want to extend, then how about they lower the cost? Or - they could give some kind of guarantee that is the season is cut short B/C of Covid - they will do XYZ for the following season.   If they did something, I would risk that there may be issues next year and buy anyway.  Otherwise, I will just wait and buy my pass at a higher price.

I have to believe that pass sales are way the heck off for next year.


----------



## teleo (Apr 13, 2020)

From Wins blog 4/8


> In the near future, we will be renewing our season pass campaign and providing you with more details next week.



Sounds like theye are trying to figure out what to do.  Hopefully some news this week.

https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins...pJobID=1000420904&spReportId=MTAwMDQyMDkwNAS2


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 13, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Billo -
> 
> If there is no ski season 20/21, I don't think you will be going to Hawaii.
> 
> ...



Not looking for a perfect plan or one ultimate solution....just some sort of update.

Yes, Hawaii could become Florida could become a drive to Rhode Island could become just staying at home and watching more movies....


----------



## Edd (Apr 13, 2020)

Ha! I love Hawaii but I’d never trade a ski season for a trip there. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## CastlerockMRV (Apr 13, 2020)

From what I understand Alterra is in a battle with their insurance provider over this and the insurance provider is holding fast that they will not provide any protection if resorts are forced to close to due COVID. Further the "quarantine" part of the pass insurance offered apparently covers personal quarantine but doesn't do anything about stay-at-home orders. (Wouldn't be shocked if they stripped that part out for 2020-21 either.)

There are a bunch of threads in the Ikon Pass Holders Facebook group with screenshots from conversations with Alterra Customer Service as well as with Red Sky Insurance who covers Ikon. Pretty informative if you want to check it out: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ikonpassholders

I would be surprised if Alterra doesn't issue a formal statement on this soon. 

I upgraded from my SB pass to full Ikon they day they went on sale. Wishing I had waited now...


----------



## dustyroads (Apr 14, 2020)

For the last several years I have bought my passes early to save. However, the 20/21 ski season is 8 months away and  I'm beginning to think the 10% savings might not be worth the risk/reward. Lots of different things could happen in that time. For instance, although another risk, but if the stock market rebounded would I make out better keeping my money in stocks than buying passes early? There are some advantages to hanging onto you money longer when the reward is minimal.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 14, 2020)

Bought my passes for family.  Even though SB is now part of Alterra, I feel I should support them and that hopefully some of the money will make it down to the employees that are furloughed


----------



## WinS (Apr 14, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Bought my passes for family.  Even though SB is now part of Alterra, I feel I should support them and that hopefully some of the money will make it down to the employees that are furloughed




Yes it will. Thank you.  More details out this morning about passes. Renewal discount on Ikon Passes has been increased and will be retroactive if you purchased already. My email about passes is also going out this morning . Deadline also extended to May 26th and there is a financing option available for Ikon Passes. 

Stay healthy everyone.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 14, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> For the last several years I have bought my passes early to save. However, the 20/21 ski season is 8 months away and  I'm beginning to think the 10% savings might not be worth the risk/reward. Lots of different things could happen in that time. For instance, although another risk, but if the stock market rebounded would I make out better keeping my money in stocks than buying passes early? There are some advantages to hanging onto you money longer when the reward is minimal.



One reason I always wait until the deadline regardless.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 14, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes it will. Thank you.  More details out this morning about passes. Renewal discount on Ikon Passes has been increased and will be retroactive if you purchased already. My email about passes is also going out this morning . Deadline also extended to May 26th and there is a financing option available for Ikon Passes.
> 
> Stay healthy everyone.



I got an email from Stratton about this pass info.


----------



## dustyroads (Apr 15, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes it will. Thank you.  More details out this morning about passes. Renewal discount on Ikon Passes has been increased and will be retroactive if you purchased already. My email about passes is also going out this morning . Deadline also extended to May 26th and there is a financing option available for Ikon Passes.
> 
> Stay healthy everyone.



Yup, The Ikon website is now giving a $200.00 discount to previous passholders and extending the time to May 27th. That makes it worth buying early now.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 15, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Yup, The Ikon website is now giving a $200.00 discount to previous passholders and extending the time to May 27th. That makes it worth buying early now.



By early, it means not a day before May 26th.


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## AbominableSnowman (Apr 15, 2020)

To clarify the deadline date, from the email that Sugarbush sent out: 
"Given the circumstances, we have decided to extend our early spring pass pricing through May 26th. "

So, sure, buy it on May 26th...but don't wait until the 27th...


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Bought my passes for family.  Even though SB is now part of Alterra, I feel I should support them and that hopefully some of the money will make it down to the employees that are furloughed



Well said tumbler. I bought mine today. At this point I see little value in waiting further.


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## jdr14 (Apr 15, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Yup, The Ikon website is now giving a $200.00 discount to previous passholders and extending the time to May 27th. That makes it worth buying early now.



Apparently, they are only giving the $200 discount for former Ikon pass holders. So if you are a SB season pass holder, you only get the $100 off renewal discount. Not $200. Pretty lame of Alterra.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2020)

jdr14 said:


> Apparently, they are only giving the $200 discount for former Ikon pass holders. So if you are a SB season pass holder, you only get the $100 off renewal discount. Not $200. Pretty lame of Alterra.



Definitely not true. I got the $200 off and I'm a former SB season pass holder. Never had Ikon previously. The coupon code that SB e-mailed back in March automatically gave me the $200 off today when I used it.


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## jdr14 (Apr 15, 2020)

Hmm. I called ikon today since I already renewed my pass and they told me it was only $100 for SB pass holders. Will call them back.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2020)

jdr14 said:


> Hmm. I called ikon today since I already renewed my pass and they told me it was only $100 for SB pass holders. Will call them back.



Probably someone going off the original info that doesn't have all the details. I'd imagine at some point they automatically would be refunding the additional discount to people that already purchased since they said it would be retroactive.



I also didn't realize until today that tax was already included in the listed prices. I'm used to the old SB prices where they were pre-tax. So the expectation of the tax cost essentially offset the added insurance cost. (And yes, before someone else comments on the insurance, I have no expectations that the insurance covers a pandemic...however there are plenty of other things it does cover that seem worthwhile to me).


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## WinS (Apr 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Probably someone going off the original info that doesn't have all the details. I'd imagine at some point they automatically would be refunding the additional discount to people that already purchased since they said it would be retroactive.
> 
> View attachment 26761
> 
> I also didn't realize until today that tax was already included in the listed prices. I'm used to the old SB prices where they were pre-tax. So the expectation of the tax cost essentially offset the added insurance cost. (And yes, before someone else comments on the insurance, I have no expectations that the insurance covers a pandemic...however there are plenty of other things it does cover that seem worthwhile to me).




Correct. It is $200 for Ikon and $100 for Ikon Base and Ikon Base Plus.  6% Tax is included in that price.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 15, 2020)

Win, is Sugarbush going to keep their existing website or are you going with the corporate Alterra site?  If so, maybe you guys could teach Alterra website providers a few things, have them look at the Sugarbush site.  Sugarbush's site is extremely useful and has a great app.  I skied several Alterra mtns out west this year, I didn't like their websites at all.  Alterra's app isn't easy to use, especially if you are trying to use it while skiing. You have to scroll too much to find the information you are looking for.  Then the information is either hard to find or you can't find at all.   They Alterra sites just look too corporate.  Each Alterra  resort needs to have their own identity.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. 
From a Sugarbush skier


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## WinS (Apr 15, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Win, is Sugarbush going to keep their existing website or are you going with the corporate Alterra site?  If so, maybe you guys could teach Alterra website providers a few things, have them look at the Sugarbush site.  Sugarbush's site is extremely useful and has a great app.  I skied several Alterra mtns out west this year, I didn't like their websites at all.  Alterra's app isn't easy to use, especially if you are trying to use it while skiing. You have to scroll too much to find the information you are looking for.  Then the information is either hard to find or you can't find at all.   They Alterra sites just look too corporate.  Each Alterra  resort needs to have their own identity.
> Anyway, those are my thoughts.
> From a Sugarbush skier



We will be keeping our own. Thanks for the observations.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 15, 2020)

WinS said:


> We will be keeping our own. Thanks for the observations.



Awesome...


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## crystalmountainskier (Apr 15, 2020)

Win, do you know if GMVS is going ahead with swapping the Poma for a new T-Bar this summer?  Thanks for continuing to answer questions on here.


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## Slidebrook87 (Apr 16, 2020)

I have that same question 


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## WinS (Apr 16, 2020)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Win, do you know if GMVS is going ahead with swapping the Poma for a new T-Bar this summer?  Thanks for continuing to answer questions on here.



The last I heard "yes". Of course, a lot depends on when everyone can get back to work including suppliers like lift manufacturers.


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## Slidebrook87 (Apr 16, 2020)

I’m pretty sure most of the parts have already been manufactured, at least that’s the case with most of the cancelled or delayed projects this year. It’s more about the shipment and installation crews. 


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 16, 2020)

WIn, I noticed the Chairs as still up on Bravo and Valley house.  Anyway Sugarbush is holding out hope for one more weekend?  Maybe the 2nd weekend of May.


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## skiur (Apr 16, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> WIn, I noticed the Chairs as still up on Bravo and Valley house.  Anyway Sugarbush is holding out hope for one more weekend?  Maybe the 2nd weekend of May.



Being that Vermonts stay at home order is until may 15th I don't think it's up to Win.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> Being that Vermonts stay at home order is until may 15th I don't think it's up to Win.



OK,I thought is was like NH and Mass which is May 4th


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## machski (Apr 16, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> OK,I thought is was like NH and Mass which is May 4th


NH is May 4th for now, but Sununu indicates today when he extended the remote learning for the balance of the school year the stay at home is likely to be extended next week.

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## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2020)

machski said:


> NH is May 4th for now, but Sununu indicates today when he extended the remote learning for the balance of the school year the stay at home is likely to be extended next week.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


I expect a middle of May date at minimum unless the numbers down in Mass improve drastically in the next week.  NH has faired fairly well. I've had a number of order cancellations in the past week because my hospital partners feel we won't get much of a surge up here.  They were panicking two weeks ago, but have calmed down a lot since. The virus is still raging just to the South of us though.  Mass has quickly climbed to having the fourth most deaths in the country.  Until they level off, I expect Sununu to be quite cautious  

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## WinS (Apr 17, 2020)

skiur said:


> Being that Vermonts stay at home order is until may 15th I don't think it's up to Win.



Unfortunately, this won’t happen. Governor is having a press conference at 11am on Friday so we might know more about how things will be allowed to reopen is the trend stays positive.


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## WinS (Apr 17, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> WIn, I noticed the Chairs as still up on Bravo and Valley house.  Anyway Sugarbush is holding out hope for one more weekend?  Maybe the 2nd weekend of May.



They are up because all our employees are at home. We are hoping jobs like lift maintenance will be allowed to resume before too much longer as they area able to work at the proper social distancing.


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## Hawk (Apr 17, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> WIn, I noticed the Chairs as still up on Bravo and Valley house.  Anyway Sugarbush is holding out hope for one more weekend?  Maybe the 2nd weekend of May.


What does that mean. "Chairs as still up" ?  Are you saying they have not removed the chairs from the cables?


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## mikec142 (Apr 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What does that mean. "Chairs as still up" ?  Are you saying they have not removed the chairs from the cables?



Just looked at the web cams now...first off, it's flurrying.  Second, yes, the chairs are still on the cables on SB and VH.  Also on GMX.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 17, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Just looked at the web cams now...first off, it's flurrying.  Second, yes, the chairs are still on the cables on SB and VH.  Also on GMX.



Repost


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## tumbler (Apr 17, 2020)

WinS said:


> They are up because all our employees are at home. We are hoping jobs like lift maintenance will be allowed to resume before too much longer as they area able to work at the proper social distancing.



Wearing proper PPE like mask, glasses and gloves will allow you to work closer than 6'


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 17, 2020)

The only reason I was asking was,  Sugarbushs website says "we are suspending operations."  It didn't say we are closing for the season.  There are quite a few New England ski resorts are saying on their website closed for the season.  Then I saw the lifts still had chairs on them.


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## Hawk (Apr 18, 2020)

Correct me if I am wrong but Sugarbush does not remove the chairs from the cables unless they do maintenance.  Which does not happen most years.  Also Bravo has to be up and running on typical years by June for the mountain biking and Summer lift access so that is why I did not understand your question.


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## ss20 (Apr 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but Sugarbush does not remove the chairs from the cables unless they do maintenance.  Which does not happen most years.  Also Bravo has to be up and running on typical years by June for the mountain biking and Summer lift access so that is why I did not understand your question.



A certain % of chairs have to be removed from fixed-grip lifts each off season.  

I was very concerned when this started about chairlifts, and not seeing anything spinning on any webcam I looked at.  A month without maintenance is fine, but if that grows to 2-3 months you're getting into trouble.  Lots of things need to happen in the off-season at a big place like Sugarbush.  Chairs taken off the line, hundreds of detachable grips rebuilt, sheave wheels greased, and a lot more stuff that's wayyyy beyond my level of mechanical comprehension.


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## cdskier (Apr 18, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but Sugarbush does not remove the chairs from the cables unless they do maintenance.  Which does not happen most years.  Also Bravo has to be up and running on typical years by June for the mountain biking and Summer lift access so that is why I did not understand your question.



I could have sworn I've always seen at least some chairs taken off of SB and GH every year. Here's what I found online about detachable lift maintenance that seems in line with what I remember hearing in the past.



> Every year 20% of the chairs get removed from the lift so they can be fully inspected and the grip gets rebuilt. This ensures that each chair gets done once every 5 years.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 18, 2020)

20% of each lifts grips get sent out for NDT testing.


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## WinS (Apr 18, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> 20% of each lifts grips get sent out for NDT testing.



No need for me to respond. You got it correct.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 19, 2020)

No what sucks, photo take same weekend last year.


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## Slidebrook87 (Apr 20, 2020)

This was 4/19 last year 


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2020)

Today was when the flooding happened that closed Bethel Mtn Rd. and a bunch of damage on 100 and 107.


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I could have sworn I've always seen at least some chairs taken off of SB and GH every year. Here's what I found online about detachable lift maintenance that seems in line with what I remember hearing in the past.



OK, but that would happen later in the summer and in the fall.  They wouldn't be testing for next year this early and especially when people are not supposed to be at work.  That is why I was questioning the OP MikeC142 when he saying the chairs were still on the cables.  They would not be off the cables this time of year in any circumstance unless they were replacing them or had an issue.


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## Newpylong (Apr 20, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Wearing proper PPE like mask, glasses and gloves will allow you to work closer than 6'



Technically sure, but not legally as the industry is not essential.


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## Newpylong (Apr 20, 2020)

WinS said:


> No need for me to respond. You got it correct.



Do you guys really need to send them out? Is that because they are detach? Ours are NDT'd onsite, but they're all fixed grip.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2020)

Hawk said:


> OK, but that would happen later in the summer and in the fall.  They wouldn't be testing for next year this early and especially when people are not supposed to be at work.  That is why I was questioning the OP MikeC142 when he saying the chairs were still on the cables.  They would not be off the cables this time of year in any circumstance unless they were replacing them or had an issue.



No, they usually start all that work as early as possible. I just looked back at some of the photos I took and on 4/28/18 I can see chairs on the ground around GH from a shot looking towards the base from Spring Fling. From a pic on 5/5/19 taken in the base area I see chairs on the ground by SB (that one is critical to do early since it needs to be done between ski season and mountain biking season). For SB they will start that work as soon as they switch to using VH full time. I recall last year that Super Bravo's last day was 4/21 to give them a head start on the work and they ran only VH after that.

Granted this question came up on 4/16, so even that would have been a tad early under normal circumstances and I wouldn't have even thought to question by that point not seeing chairs off. End of April/early May if nothing happened then it might have entered my mind to wonder about it.


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## stovepipe (Apr 23, 2020)

Long Time SB skier here.  Just throwing this out there.   If the Bush wants to sell passes for next year ,the best thing (providing weather allows) is OPEN IT BACK UP!  Of course would have to have the Gov's ok . Has been a very cool April, can't count the number of times I have woke up to find snow in the yard this month and I live at a low elevation up the road.   In my humble opinion -you are not "killing grandma " by taking a few runs.   Hope this collective stupidity ends soon.


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## Harvey (Apr 23, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> stupidity



Defined differently by different people.


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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2020)

I would say that if you think your safe and want to do something like that, then if you get sick you forfeit your right to go to the hospital for help.  That is a fair and equitable trade off in my opinion.  No?


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## prsboogie (Apr 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I would say that if you think your safe and want to do something like that, then if you get sick you forfeit your right to go to the hospital for help.  That is a fair and equitable trade off in my opinion.  No?


^this... they should have scanned all ID s during the protests this weekend and put them on a pay the full bill list if they get sick. 

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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2020)

Don't get me wrong.  I more than anyone want to ski.  I have even praised the poaching that some locals have done.  But I do not live there so I am not going to travel and endanger others as much as I want to. Skinning by yourself and in secret is fairly safe for you, but as others have said, it provokes the weak minded into thinking it's OK to travel and do it. 
But...If people can't understand the theory behind flattening the curve then you are not going to teach them.  I now know 3 people personally that have died.  I know at least 10 acquaintances that are in the hospital with uncertain futures.  Most people will never understand until it affects them.  They say 90% of the US has not been in contact with he virus at this point maybe even more.  Do we want to just infect everybody and let the chips fall where they fall?  That my friend is a tough moral and ethical question. People that are young, healthy and in shape with low risk might say fine....until they start loosing family members or someone they care about.  It's easy to think this is nothing until it effects you.  Myself, I am willing to wait it out and stay safe.  I will not be selfish and put myself in front of the general overall good.


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## stovepipe (Apr 23, 2020)

Man--- Is this the country that defeated the Nazi's in WWII and won the war in the Pacific?  Is this the Country that sent a man too the Moon in the 60's?  Is this the country that sent the British packing in 1776?   My Dad was in a Sub during the second world war and have Revolutionary War Hero's buried in a Stowe.  My guess is  you guys have the similar story's in your family tree and I bet they are ALL rolling in there graves.   This is PATHETIC.  Time to get to work!  Turn Off the TV !              OK Rant over.


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## prsboogie (Apr 23, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Man--- Is this the country that defeated the Nazi's in WWII and won the war in the Pacific?  Is this the Country that sent a man too the Moon in the 60's?  Is this the country that sent the British packing in 1776?   My Dad was in a Sub during the second world war and have Revolutionary War Hero's buried in a Stowe.  My guess is  you guys have the similar story's in your family tree and I bet they are ALL rolling in there graves.   This is PATHETIC.  Time to get to work!  Turn Off the TV !              OK Rant over.


You should do a little history lesson about the Spanish Flu and how the first year there were very few deaths (relative to itself) and it was largely ignored and the following year just over 600K died in the us.

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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2020)

I never left work.  I am still employed.  Took a 20% cut but still working for now.


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## stovepipe (Apr 23, 2020)

Prsbooglie mentioned "History lesson about Spanish flu" Perhaps proper prospective on what's really going on . Dr.Gary G. Kohls has a great article posted in Globalresearch.ca .   Some points he makes is look--- 7755 people a day die in the US. We are a big country. Allso discusses the fact how the PCR tests are crap.  After reading many articles that say much the same I think he is right.  Look the way life  works you could put on your Gloves and face mask to "Brave a grocery store run" and trip and fall in the driveway.


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## Hawk (Apr 23, 2020)

Do what you want my friend.  Feel whatever way you want to feel  it is a free country.  All I am saying is I know people that have died.  If you had the same experience you might feel different.  But being isolated in the fair safe valley is not like being in the thick of it.  Maybe we should all come up and visit you.  I am sure there are others in the valley that would not be happy if Win opened and we all came flocking up there.


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## cdskier (Apr 23, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Prsbooglie mentioned "History lesson about Spanish flu" Perhaps proper prospective on what's really going on . Dr.Gary G. Kohls has a great article posted in Globalresearch.ca .   Some points he makes is look--- 7755 people a day die in the US. We are a big country. Allso discusses the fact how the PCR tests are crap.  After reading many articles that say much the same I think he is right.  Look the way life  works you could put on your Gloves and face mask to "Brave a grocery store run" and trip and fall in the driveway.



LOL. That guy is an anti-vax nutjob. So I'm not going to waste my time even reading a word he has to say about our current situation.

Oh...he's also a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 23, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Prsbooglie mentioned "History lesson about Spanish flu" Perhaps proper prospective on what's really going on . Dr.Gary G. Kohls has a great article posted in Globalresearch.ca .   Some points he makes is look--- 7755 people a day die in the US. We are a big country. Allso discusses the fact how the PCR tests are crap.  After reading many articles that say much the same I think he is right.  Look the way life  works you could put on your Gloves and face mask to "Brave a grocery store run" and trip and fall in the driveway.



You joined this forum in 2006 and have 8 posts.  After 14 years you've got nothing better to add than this ?

"Globalresearch.ca, a conspiracy theories spreading website operated by Michel Chossudovsky's Centre for Research on Globalization"


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## tumbler (Apr 23, 2020)

stovepipe said:


> Prsbooglie mentioned "History lesson about Spanish flu" Perhaps proper prospective on what's really going on . Dr.Gary G. Kohls has a great article posted in Globalresearch.ca .   Some points he makes is look--- 7755 people a day die in the US. We are a big country. Allso discusses the fact how the PCR tests are crap.  After reading many articles that say much the same I think he is right.  Look the way life  works you could put on your Gloves and face mask to "Brave a grocery store run" and trip and fall in the driveway.



So are you protesting at the State House to let all the out of staters in?


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 23, 2020)

Anyway Sugarbush will allow uphill access in May?
https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020/04/23/aspen-skiing-co-grooming/

Aspen has.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 23, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Anyway Sugarbush will allow uphill access in May?
> https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020/04/23/aspen-skiing-co-grooming/
> 
> Aspen has.



Only thing - Colorado does not want people to head into the mountains so it will be a locals only thing.


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## WinS (Apr 27, 2020)

I hate to be the one to let you know. 17’ at the summit, 12” at mid-mountain and 0” at the base. I wish we could all be enjoying this. We all really appreciate, though, how everyone has respected the Governor’s Stay at Home Order. It is frustrating when we see so much snow still on the trails but it is making a difference. Hopefully, we will be back to normalcy before too much longer. Stay well !


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## cdskier (Apr 27, 2020)

That's a pretty impressive snowfall gradient from 0"-12" bottom to top on Super Bravo basically.

It would have been an interesting end of the season if things had been open, although I still think that the lack of grooming and skier traffic has had some degree of impact as well on how much snow still seems to be left on trails.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> I hate to be the one to let you know. 17’ at the summit, 12” at mid-mountain and 0” at the base. I wish we could all be enjoying this. We all really appreciate, though, how everyone has respected the Governor’s Stay at Home Order. It is frustrating when we see so much snow still on the trails but it is making a difference. Hopefully, we will be back to normalcy before too much longer. Stay well !


 
I still haven''t heard Win putting a close to the season yet.  Maybe he did a few pages ago. Could we get one last weekend.
 If Mass and NH ease their restrictions begining of next week.  It wouldn't surprised if the Governor of Vermont eases the restrictions next week too.  If you take a look at the back of the Sugarbush snowstakes, there is still a lot of snow still mid mtn up.  

Could we possible have one more weekend with some social distancing and wear a mask or neck warming in lines and on the lift.  Have two people per quad not sitting next to each other, one person on a triple.


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## tumbler (Apr 27, 2020)

Skiing is not happening.  Mass and NH are not going to ease restrictions yet and if they do, Vermont will clamp down on out of state visits.  So will NH.  I would think the Govs of neighboring states are all working together.  Virus still going strong in Mass unfortunately, I see another 4 weeks of stay at home at least.  Which sucks but won't suck as bad if we go back to normal life and virus comes roaring back.


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## nhskier1969 (Apr 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Skiing is not happening.  Mass and NH are not going to ease restrictions yet and if they do, Vermont will clamp down on out of state visits.  So will NH.  I would think the Govs of neighboring states are all working together.  Virus still going strong in Mass unfortunately, I see another 4 weeks of stay at home at least.  Which sucks but won't suck as bad if we go back to normal life and virus comes roaring back.



Did you see the news over weekend, they were talking about the crowds at Mt. Major.  The parking lot were packed and their were cars parked on one side of the road for a good 1/4 mile.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Did you see the news over weekend, they were talking about the crowds at Mt. Major.  The parking lot were packed and their were cars parked on one side of the road for a good 1/4 mile.



And the hike takes about a 1/2 hour


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## Hawk (Apr 27, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I still haven''t heard Win putting a close to the season yet.  Maybe he did a few pages ago. Could we get one last weekend.
> If Mass and NH ease their restrictions begining of next week.  It wouldn't surprised if the Governor of Vermont eases the restrictions next week too.  If you take a look at the back of the Sugarbush snowstakes, there is still a lot of snow still mid mtn up.
> 
> Could we possible have one more weekend with some social distancing and wear a mask or neck warming in lines and on the lift.  Have two people per quad not sitting next to each other, one person on a triple.



I don't know, it sounds pretty final here on Instagram.....
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_bFUclgYcp/


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## SkiTheEast (Apr 28, 2020)

Wow, pretty surprising coming from Vail but Epic stepped up a bit, wondering if Ikon will respond:

"We are providing season pass holders a minimum credit of 20% of the price of their 2019/20 pass, which can be applied to a 2020/21 season pass of equal or greater value. If you waited until Spring to use your pass and used your pass less than five days, or didn’t use your pass at all, you’ll receive more credits - up to 80% of what you paid for your pass. And as you may need extra time to make winter plans, your credit will be available through Monday, September 7th, 2020." and also including free pass insurance for everyone

https://www.epicpass.com/info/2019-2020-pass-holder-credit.aspx


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2020)

SkiTheEast said:


> Wow, pretty surprising coming from Vail but Epic stepped up a bit, wondering if Ikon will respond:
> 
> "We are providing season pass holders a minimum credit of 20% of the price of their 2019/20 pass, which can be applied to a 2020/21 season pass of equal or greater value. If you waited until Spring to use your pass and used your pass less than five days, or didn’t use your pass at all, you’ll receive more credits - up to 80% of what you paid for your pass. And as you may need extra time to make winter plans, your credit will be available through Monday, September 7th, 2020." and also including free pass insurance for everyone
> 
> https://www.epicpass.com/info/2019-2020-pass-holder-credit.aspx



Knowing how they have acted so far, methinks no.


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## cdskier (Apr 28, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Knowing how they have acted so far, methinks no.



Ikon offered an extra discount for renewing under the circumstances and offered an assurance of protection for next year's season pass before Epic did either. So I don't quite understand the attitude that "Ikon needs to respond" along with comments that seem to indicate Ikon has acted poorly somehow so far.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ikon offered an extra discount for renewing under the circumstances and offered an assurance of protection for next year's season pass before Epic did either. So I don't quite understand the attitude that "Ikon needs to respond" along with comments that seem to indicate Ikon has acted poorly somehow so far.



I'm answering his question as to if IKON will do more in response.  Great that they did something before.  As to me, color me skeptical if not cynical about IKON.  They've really ruined the skiing experience here in my neck of the woods.  So yes, that will taint everything IKON for me.  It is what it is.


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## SkiTheEast (Apr 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ikon offered an extra discount for renewing under the circumstances and offered an assurance of protection for next year's season pass before Epic did either. So I don't quite understand the attitude that "Ikon needs to respond" along with comments that seem to indicate Ikon has acted poorly somehow so far.



I never said they "need to respond" even though you're quoting me as such.  You're right they were the first mover on announcing their plan, kudos for that.  That being said some of the comments on social media (and I know social media commenters are never satisfied) lead me to believe that there are probably many people who aren't happy with how Ikon has responded so far.  Now that their main competitor has completely one-upped them I'm simply hypothetically wondering whether they're under pressure to take another look at their own plan.


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## cdskier (Apr 28, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm answering his question as to if IKON will do more in response.  Great that they did something before.  As to me, color me skeptical if not cynical about IKON.  They've really ruined the skiing experience here in my neck of the woods.  So yes, that will taint everything IKON for me.  It is what it is.



Believe me...your dislike (to put it mildly) of Ikon is very evident.

I just don't understand why people think Ikon needs to "do more". The constant "one-upmanship" people seem to be expecting between Ikon and Epic is already tiring. Ikon gave a response. Epic gave a response. If people don't like one or the other, they're free to do what they want. I think both made very decent offers given the situation. It is a very fine line they need to walk and balance. If you give too much back, it ultimately just weakens the financial position of the resorts and makes it harder for them to invest money in the capital improvements everyone wants. If you don't do enough, it could cut into your sales and also weaken your bottom line.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I just don't understand why people think Ikon needs to "do more". The constant "one-upmanship" people seem to be expecting between Ikon and Epic is already tiring. Ikon gave a response. Epic gave a response. If people don't like one or the other, they're free to do what they want. I think both made very decent offers given the situation. It is a very fine line they need to walk and balance. If you give too much back, it ultimately just weakens the financial position of the resorts and makes it harder for them to invest money in the capital improvements everyone wants. If you don't do enough, it could cut into your sales and also weaken your bottom line.



The OP asked a question.  That's his right.

As to why he asked it, that is because IKON is subject to at least one class action suit...despite their response.  That's why it is coming up.


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## SkiTheEast (Apr 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Believe me...your dislike (to put it mildly) of Ikon is very evident.
> 
> I just don't understand why people think Ikon needs to "do more". The constant "one-upmanship" people seem to be expecting between Ikon and Epic is already tiring. Ikon gave a response. Epic gave a response. If people don't like one or the other, they're free to do what they want. I think both made very decent offers given the situation. It is a very fine line they need to walk and balance. If you give too much back, it ultimately just weakens the financial position of the resorts and makes it harder for them to invest money in the capital improvements everyone wants. If you don't do enough, it could cut into your sales and also weaken your bottom line.



Yeah, I agree that the race to the bottom serves no one in the end.  But what are the actual differences/costs?  I guess if you were to break it down for most of us the differences between the 2 offers for someone who skiied more than 5 days (probably most people here) its really 20% discount and pass insurance for the season (Epic) vs 7%-10% discount and ability to roll over to next season if uncertain by December (Ikon).  

Epic is able make a big splash though by throwing larger discounts for people who went <5 times (80% credit if you never used it).  I suspect its a small number of passholders you're pacifying with a goodwill credit (and I'm sure they ran the numbers on the the cost to offering this).  Not that I necessarily agree to buying a pass for one specific late season trip but there are definitely people who probably feel burned and probably appreciate getting thrown a bone after feeling like they flushed big $$ down the drain...

Anyway...let's just hope this ends sooner rather than later and everyone can slowly start making their way out of their bunkers.  I'd love some fresh air.  How's the golf course looking?


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 28, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*

This topic is in about a half dozen threads- would be nice to consolidate!

But to continue someone was trying to show the advantage or disadvantage and as far as I know Ikon has no Veteran product while Epic does and take 20% from that well it sounds pretty sweet!


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## cdskier (Apr 28, 2020)

SkiTheEast said:


> Yeah, I agree that the race to the bottom serves no one in the end.  But what are the actual differences/costs?  I guess if you were to break it down for most of us the differences between the 2 offers for someone who skiied more than 5 days (probably most people here) its really 20% discount and pass insurance for the season (Epic) vs 7%-10% discount and ability to roll over to next season if uncertain by December (Ikon).
> 
> Epic is able make a big splash though by throwing larger discounts for people who went <5 times (80% credit if you never used it).  I suspect its a small number of passholders you're pacifying with a goodwill credit (and I'm sure they ran the numbers on the the cost to offering this).  Not that I necessarily agree to buying a pass for one specific late season trip but there are definitely people who probably feel burned and probably appreciate getting thrown a bone after feeling like they flushed big $$ down the drain...
> 
> Anyway...let's just hope this ends sooner rather than later and everyone can slowly start making their way out of their bunkers.  I'd love some fresh air.  How's the golf course looking?



Actually the numbers are even closer than you mentioned. Ikon is giving $200 off the full pass which is basically 20% so right in line with Epic's 20% off a full Epic. Ikon base gives you $100 off for a renewal (slightly over 14%), while Epic local holders would get $140 credit. However Epic Local costs $30 more than Ikon base, so the net difference is $10 for Ikon base vs Epic local renewals.

Ikon gives everyone the option to rollover their pass to the following year for ANY reason if you decide by Dec 10th (and haven't used it yet). This coverage is free. If you want coverage for injuries, job loss, etc, then at the moment that costs extra ($~40 for the full Ikon).

Epic gives an actual insurance policy for free with all their passes that explicitly includes the pandemic scenario. Since this is insurance, you can get an actual refund instead of just a pass rollover. It would cover any problems during the entire "core season" next year (Thanksgiving to Easter). However you do need to be careful about what options you choose. There's some options available that can impact how much you get back based on which resorts close and when. However one downside here vs Ikon is that if the resorts are open and you're not comfortable skiing, too bad. With Ikon you can defer your pass simply for not being comfortable with the situation.

Epic is giving the higher percentages to people that skied less than 7 days...but like you said, I'm sure they ran the numbers and realized this is a tiny fraction of their overall sales that fall in this category anyway. Epic did have the 1-7 "Epic Day" passes which you can easily argue were bought with the intention of using them at a specific period such as late March/early April while Ikon had no comparable pass option. Sure you could have bought a full Ikon or an Ikon base and only planned to use it for a one week trip in the spring, but I have no idea how many people would have really done that. I can't imagine it is that many.

And no idea on the golf course...I don't golf


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Actually the numbers are even closer than you mentioned. Ikon is giving $200 off the full pass which is basically 20% so right in line with Epic's 20% off a full Epic. Ikon base gives you $100 off for a renewal (slightly over 14%), while Epic local holders would get $140 credit. However Epic Local costs $30 more than Ikon base, so the net difference is $10 for Ikon base vs Epic local renewals.
> 
> Ikon gives everyone the option to rollover their pass to the following year for ANY reason if you decide by Dec 10th (and haven't used it yet). This coverage is free. If you want coverage for injuries, job loss, etc, then at the moment that costs extra ($~40 for the full Ikon).
> 
> ...



$447.20 for the Epic Veteran that is pretty good!


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## mbedle (Apr 28, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> This topic is in about a half dozen threads- would be nice to consolidate!
> 
> But to continue someone was trying to show the advantage or disadvantage and as far as I know Ikon has no Veteran product while Epic does and take 20% from that well it sounds pretty sweet!
> 
> ...



They do have a military discount for active, reserve, retiree and spouses/dependents.


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## Domeskier (Apr 28, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> This topic is in about a half dozen threads- would be nice to consolidate!



I vote on moving it to the Flatty thread!


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 28, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



mbedle said:


> They do have a military discount for active, reserve, retiree and spouses/dependents.



Being a veteran does not help!  We will get the Epic Veteran Pass for $559 and add A Basin Military which includes veterans for $179 which a great deal on its own.

Edit: $447 with a twenty percent credit which is great for skiing Breck, Ketstone, Vail, Beaver Creek and Crested Butte and that is Colorado alone nearly 15,000 acres.

A Basin pass includes 3 days at Monarch3 Days at Taos and a day at Silverton


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## Hawk (Apr 29, 2020)

The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?  

It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.  Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.  And as for IKON ruining the ski experience, it's exactly the same at Sugarbush.  Boo Hoo if you have to wait in a line for 5 or 10 minutes instead of skiing right on.


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## prsboogie (Apr 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?
> 
> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.  Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.  And as for IKON ruining the ski experience, it's exactly the same at Sugarbush.  Boo Hoo if you have to wait in a line for 5 or 10 minutes instead of skiing right on.


THIS* 1 MILLION I have not agreed with an entire post more since jointing this board.

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## gregnye (Apr 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.  Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.



Considering that mountains seem to value day tickets at $50s a day, calling a $600-700" pass cheap" is a little bit out of touch. Most people aren't like us on this board. They don't ski over 20 days a year.

Go to sunday river on Ikon, they make you sign a receipt that values the pass ticket at $50. Why not just have $50 lift tickets then? Why the artificial inflation to over $100 a day walk-up rates that prevent people from joining the sport. Ikon and Epic are just shooting themselves in the foot--new generations have less disposable income. They are not going to spend $100 a day to try out skiing.

Increasing the price to make things look like deals is a disease that has overtaken all industries. Started with the clothing industry, and now it's finally entered the skiing industry. When there's so many rapidly-changing "deals" (and price increases), the customer can no longer buy stuff rationally, and must make an emotional decision.

Ikon's pass purchasing page also preys on the un-tech savy. In order to get the full discount you must click "renew pass" from your existing pass profile. If you try to add a pass to your cart, it doesn't actually give you the discount. They aren't making it easy. I have no sympathy for these companies.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?
> 
> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.  Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.  And as for IKON ruining the ski experience, it's exactly the same at Sugarbush.  Boo Hoo if you have to wait in a line for 5 or 10 minutes instead of skiing right on.



Couple points.  First, a lot of folks who are skiing and riding do have money.  And frankly a lot of them are folks who are "new money" and have a sense of entitlement.  It's the sense of entitlement that is the issue.

Second point:  for a lot of folks they are now out of work or have found themselves with less money than expected.  So folks are penny pinching.  Makes sense.  Plus, like any other risk, folks want to push the risk onto others.  Here, folks feel that Alterra/IKON should bear the loss of the closures, not the skiers/riders.  Is that right?  Some say yes, some say no.  It would be interesting to see if Alterra or Vail got some kind of relief from the Feds or States (unlikely) because tourism is in the toilet for now.    

Push come to shove, it becomes a PR issue.  Contractually, sure, they can say tough luck to folks.  In these times though that poses a risk to sales and image.  So the cheaper route is to pay folks to shut up.

And frankly things are really skewed right now because people are stuck at home and not skiing, hiking, biking, etc. and are grumpy as hell.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?
> 
> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.  Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.  And as for IKON ruining the ski experience, it's exactly the same at Sugarbush.  Boo Hoo if you have to wait in a line for 5 or 10 minutes instead of skiing right on.





prsboogie said:


> THIS* 1 MILLION I have not agreed with an entire post more since jointing this board.



Count me on board with agreeing with Hawk's post as well.



gregnye said:


> Considering that mountains seem to value day tickets at $50s a day, calling a $600-700" pass cheap" is a little bit out of touch. Most people aren't like us on this board. They don't ski over 20 days a year.



Considering that even 20 years ago pass prices were over $1000 to some of the larger ski resorts...yes, they are "cheap" at current prices especially when you factor in that you get access to a hell of a lot more than just a single ski area. High day ticket prices are a separate issue. From an inflation perspective, resorts could be charging almost $2k for season passes, yet we're paying less than half that in many cases. (Using newenglandskihistory's website for historical pricing figures...ymmv). FWIW, walk up day rates at larger resorts were also in the $50s back then. While they shouldn't be $100+ today, they should at least be valued higher than $50.



> Go to sunday river on Ikon, they make you sign a receipt that values the pass ticket at $50. Why not just have $50 lift tickets then? Why the artificial inflation to over $100 a day walk-up rates that prevent people from joining the sport. Ikon and Epic are just shooting themselves in the foot--new generations have less disposable income. They are not going to spend $100 a day to try out skiing.



Essentially an Ikon partner ticket is a discounted pre-purchased ticket. So it isn't at all surprising to see it valued substantially less than a standard day ticket. Over inflated walk-up rates are a separate issue. Overall, I'm paying less now per day of skiing with a season pass than I was 15-20 years ago buying day tickets (and I'm skiing more days now and still paying about the same total per season). And fwiw, even 15-20 years ago I was rarely paying walk up rates.

The disposable income argument is perhaps valid, but does that mean ski areas should be the ones to address it and start catering to people with less money? There's a lot of factors playing into that... Overinflated college costs and overinflated housing markets are a big part of the blame. But there's also some blame to some younger people themselves that don't understand the value of money and put themselves in those situations to begin with. I've seen a number of examples in young people I know where fiscal responsibility is severely lacking. Then again, maybe it really has always been that way but is just more visible to me now. 

Of course, I'd also argue that you shouldn't be going to a big resort to "try out skiing" in the first place (maybe with the exception of using a special "first timer to life timer" type of discount program). Go to a local hill that's going to be much cheaper to begin with anyway. 



> Ikon's pass purchasing page also preys on the un-tech savy. In order to get the full discount you must click "renew pass" from your existing pass profile. If you try to add a pass to your cart, it doesn't actually give you the discount. They aren't making it easy. I have no sympathy for these companies.



This could simply be that they themselves are new and still working out the kinks. I really don't think it is intentionally done to "trick" people into paying more and not receiving the discounts. As someone that works in IT, our perspective can often be that something seems "easy" and "logical" to us, yet only after it is released or has extensive user piloting and feedback do we learn that our "users" see things differently and we need to make changes.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?
> 
> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.
> 
> Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.



The first part I do not think people are being cheap!  I think you buy the experience you want like I mentioned in the earlier post.  A lot come into play like “Will I travel?” or “Do I want to ski resorts that are closer?” or “Do I like the resorts on the pass making a fur the drive worth it?”.  There is also the bang for the buck!  Which I think you refer to as being cheap.  I used to ski Cannon for $273 per season could I have skied elsewhere?  Absolutely!  But for the price it was worth choosing Cannon because the experience was good and the price was right.

I do not think that anyone on this forum expects Ikon or Epic or independents owe them anything but t here are those that do, hence the class action suits.  As a result, new offerings  have been crafted.  So people are looking at the choices which differ for everyone.



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## dustyroads (May 9, 2020)

Win,
I'm looking at your May 7th Win Word post and thinking about the season snow total. I'm assuming the 193 inches was when your season abruptly ended. If so, are you recording snow which fell after the mountain closed? I'm guessing snow that fell up to this date is more like 200 to 215". If you’re not doing it, I think season totals should be recorded from a specific date to a specific date each year. Otherwise this will lower your historical average and will not be an accurate representation or good marketing.


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## WWF-VT (May 9, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> Win,
> I'm looking at your May 7th Win Word post and thinking about the season snow total. I'm assuming the 193 inches was when your season abruptly ended. If so, are you recording snow which fell after the mountain closed? I'm guessing snow that fell up to this date is more like 200 to 215". If you’re not doing it, I think season totals should be recorded from a specific date to a specific date each year. Otherwise this will lower your historical average and will not be an accurate representation or good marketing.



The season total was 141" when the mountain closed on March 14th


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## WinS (May 9, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> The season total was 141" when the mountain closed on March 14th



That’s correct. We picked up another 6-8” on the summit last night.


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## slatham (May 9, 2020)

WinS said:


> That’s correct. We picked up another 6-8” on the summit last night.



Well from what I’ve seen these last nearly 2 months the mountain certainly surpassed 200”. Heck it’s probably snowed 20” in MAY!!!


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## WinS (May 12, 2020)

slatham said:


> Well from what I’ve seen these last nearly 2 months the mountain certainly surpassed 200”. Heck it’s probably snowed 20” in MAY!!!



Another 9” Summit and 3” mid.  1816 was the year that summer never came and it snowed in June.  The  result of a volcanic eruption in Indonesia.


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## Hawk (May 12, 2020)

Yup.  That was the eruption of Mt Tambora in Indonesia.  Also famous for that winter was Mary Shelly hanging out with Lord Byron in Geneva and writing Frankenstein as the result of a friendly horror writing competition.


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## machski (May 12, 2020)

WinS said:


> Another 9’ Summit and 3” mid.  1816 was the year that summer never came and it snowed in June.  The  result of a volcanic eruption in Indonesia.


9 feet at the summit, holy crap!  [emoji6]

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## WinS (May 13, 2020)

139” by 3/14, 193” by 5/3, 200” until today.


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## cdskier (May 13, 2020)

How did the totals at the base and mid compare this year?


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## nhskier1969 (May 14, 2020)

Looks like Heavens Gate is holding up strong


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## WinS (May 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> How did the totals at the base and mid compare this year?


 

A huge difference. I think as of 3/14 we had 90” vs 139”.


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## jaybird (May 15, 2020)

Sigi and Stein still looking excellent 
Power to the Valley !

:beer:


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## HowieT2 (May 23, 2020)

I’m down to my last Lawson’s at home.  Hoping to hit the mrv for July 4.  Seems to me this vt quarantine is a bit of overkill at this point.  Anyone have any visibility on when it gets lifted?


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## Smellytele (May 23, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I’m down to my last Lawson’s at home.  Hoping to hit the mrv for July 4.  Seems to me this vt quarantine is a bit of overkill at this point.  Anyone have any visibility on when it gets lifted?



I am really craving a double SOS.
Local NH brewery (Henniker Brewery) opened up this week with outdoor seating. Stopped in yesterday to have a couple with the wife and picked up a couple of 4-packs.


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## HowieT2 (May 23, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I am really craving a double SOS.
> Local NH brewery (Henniker Brewery) opened up this week with outdoor seating. Stopped in yesterday to have a couple with the wife and picked up a couple of 4-packs.



exactly!  I can get sos here in ny, but not the double or triple.  And I’m partial to the latter.  I need more than a sip.


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## Zermatt (May 23, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I’m down to my last Lawson’s at home.  Hoping to hit the mrv for July 4.  Seems to me this vt quarantine is a bit of overkill at this point.  Anyone have any visibility on when it gets lifted?



Considering Vermont has multiple days with no new cases I doubt they end that anytime soon.

With that said I'm sure thousands of tourists are in Vermont this weekend and are not hiding in their homes.


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## skiur (May 23, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> exactly!  I can get sos here in ny, but not the double or triple.  And I’m partial to the latter.  I need more than a sip.



If you live in NY you can order from here and get free delivery.....I ordered and got my order the next day.

https://taprm.com/


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## BenedictGomez (May 23, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I’m down to my last Lawson’s at home.  Hoping to hit the mrv for July 4.  Seems to me this* vt quarantine is a bit of overkill at this point.  *Anyone have any visibility on when it gets lifted?



Understatement.  Probably the most absurd response of all 50 states (certainly top 5).


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## LasersInTheTaiga (May 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Understatement.  Probably the most absurd response of all 50 states (certainly top 5).



It seems clear that they've decided to go with the "any risk of a singe transmission is too much" philosophy, at least officially. Their messaging on Friday about being worried about cases in neighboring states is telling. I loved how they even threw Quebec in there, as if anyone thinks Canada is going to allow their border to open this summer. Super rich. (We own a few seasonal rentals in Old Orchard Beach and Maine's similar policy has completely hosed us for the summer -- the Quebec folks can't even get there if they wanted to and everyone else isn't going to quarantine for two weeks, and Maine has placed the burden of enforcement on business owners, as has Vermont). 

I could maybe understand this policy for maybe the first month or so while there was still a great deal of uncertainty, but now that there are effectively zero cases and plenty of healthcare capacity it's really pissing me off. In addition the state *knows* that there have been plenty of people coming north and yet there hasn't been a problem. It's just so much xenophobic selfishness. It seems like there are plenty of people in Vermont that would be willing to keep "out of state" plates out for the next two or so years while this gets sorted out (or permanently). The whole reaction to out-of-staters has been so disgusting, but I keep telling myself that sentiment has always been there just waiting for an excuse.

I've pretty much decided I'm out for next winter, not because of a virus I've already had, but because the MRV has become a pretty nasty place the last couple of months and I'd rather spend my time and money elsewhere. Anyone looking for a house in East Warren with a beautiful view of the Northfield Range?


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## Hawk (May 24, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> exactly!  I can get sos here in ny, but not the double or triple.  And I’m partial to the latter.  I need more than a sip.


Howie, Terri and I went up Thursday night and came back today.  It was kind of crazy.  No one with green plates wears masks or social distance for the most part.  Just the NY and MA people.  We brought all of our own food and drink but when we got there, people were very chill.  Flat bread was doing take out as was most of the others.  Considering how long I have been home and seen no one,  I felt more unsafe up there considering how many people did no social distancing or wearing of masks.  FYI I heard there is an abundance of beer because no one is up there buying it.  I think if you are responsible and use your common sense there is no issues.


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## djd66 (May 24, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> It seems clear that they've decided to go with the "any risk of a singe transmission is too much" philosophy, at least officially. Their messaging on Friday about being worried about cases in neighboring states is telling. I loved how they even threw Quebec in there, as if anyone thinks Canada is going to allow their border to open this summer. Super rich. (We own a few seasonal rentals in Old Orchard Beach and Maine's similar policy has completely hosed us for the summer -- the Quebec folks can't even get there if they wanted to and everyone else isn't going to quarantine for two weeks, and Maine has placed the burden of enforcement on business owners, as has Vermont).
> 
> I could maybe understand this policy for maybe the first month or so while there was still a great deal of uncertainty, but now that there are effectively zero cases and plenty of healthcare capacity it's really pissing me off. In addition the state *knows* that there have been plenty of people coming north and yet there hasn't been a problem. It's just so much xenophobic selfishness. It seems like there are plenty of people in Vermont that would be willing to keep "out of state" plates out for the next two or so years while this gets sorted out (or permanently). The whole reaction to out-of-staters has been so disgusting, but I keep telling myself that sentiment has always been there just waiting for an excuse.
> 
> I've pretty much decided I'm out for next winter, not because of a virus I've already had, but because the MRV has become a pretty nasty place the last couple of months and I'd rather spend my time and money elsewhere. Anyone looking for a house in East Warren with a beautiful view of the Northfield Range?




You are not the only one that has this same feeling. It’s very disturbing to hear the sentiment towards anyone with an out of state plate. If/when I go to VT, I will be keeping to myself just like I have been doing at home in Mass for the past 2 months. 
If the businesses of VT want to have any kind of recovery, they should encourage the locals to make visitors to feel welcome.


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## Smellytele (May 24, 2020)

djd66 said:


> You are not the only one that has this same feeling. It’s very disturbing to hear the sentiment towards anyone with an out of state plate. If/when I go to VT, I will be keeping to myself just like I have been doing at home in Mass for the past 2 months.
> If the businesses of VT want to have any kind of recovery, they should encourage the locals to make visitors to feel welcome.



Says the visitor...


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## skiur (May 24, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Says the visitor...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Being that Vermonts economy lives and dies with tourism......


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## Smellytele (May 24, 2020)

skiur said:


> Being that Vermonts economy lives and dies with tourism......



Says the tourist...
Some people in VT don’t care about tourism believe or not. They move there to get away from people. Others born there don’t care about tourism either. Do a lot of them? Yes but a lot don’t.


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## djd66 (May 24, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Says the visitor...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I own a home in VT and pay over $12,000/year in property taxes. Am I a visitor?


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## LasersInTheTaiga (May 24, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I own a home in VT and pay over $12,000/year in property taxes. Am I a visitor?



Now you've done it  Pointing out that  property and sales tax revenue from non-residents is pretty much the only reason many towns can have Nice Things and why the state doesn't have the same standard of living as West Virginia really gets Vermonters angry ...


----------



## icecoast1 (May 24, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Says the tourist...
> Some people in VT don’t care about tourism believe or not. They move there to get away from people. Others born there don’t care about tourism either. Do a lot of them? Yes but a lot don’t.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




It's still the truth.  Shunning people based on the color of the license plate on their car can only go on for so long unless the "locals" plan on finding another way of bringing all of the lost revenue into their state


----------



## Smellytele (May 24, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



icecoast1 said:


> It's still the truth.  Shunning people based on the color of the license plate on their car can only go on for so long unless the "locals" plan on finding another way of bringing all of the lost revenue into their state



I am not from VT but what I said is the truth as well. Some locals really don’t like out of staters. It happens in any state or country. The ones who directly make money from tourism are one thing but others who don’t see it directly see it differently. Loggers, farmers, hospital workers and etc may not see it the same as restaurants/ store owners and inn keeps.


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## Smellytele (May 24, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I own a home in VT and pay over $12,000/year in property taxes. Am I a visitor?



To the locals who live there 365? Yes


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## djd66 (May 25, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> To the locals who live there 365? Yes
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I get it.  The same thing goes on in many communities where there are second home owners.  

I guess if I lived there year round and I had a problem with Mass plates,... I would not live in the MRV.


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## Newpylong (May 25, 2020)

There are always going to be those who don't get it and always frown upon out of staters, they can't be helped. However what is chapping people's asses (mine included) are the second home owners coming up for a day or two, heading out like a normal spring, then going back south on Sunday. "Locals" have been largely sheltered in place outside of passive outdoor activity and don't take kindly to it. This is how the persona of second home owners is made in my mind - it has nothing to do with money. It's no different (but potentially deadlier) than the family down the road who rides their snowmobiles back and forth in the road, and in summer on their ATVs like this is their playground for 2 days and no one else lives here. It is unfortunate because the vast majority of second home owners if it wasn't for the plate you would never know they're there. Some eventually retire to their second home and become primary residents.


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I am not from VT but what I said is the truth as well. Some locals really don’t like out of staters. It happens in any state or country. The ones who directly make money from tourism are one thing but others who don’t see it directly see it differently. Loggers, farmers, hospital workers and etc may not see it the same as restaurants/ store owners and inn keeps.


Loggers, farmers and hospital workers should view it just the same as restaurant, store and inn owners.  

For one, they should be concerned that their neighbors are suffering great economic harm.  

For two, the economic loss from lack of tourism ultimately will hurt everyone.  Less money for police and fire departments, schools and local infrastructure that everyone relies on.  

Living on the NH Seacoast, I get the annoyance that tourism crowds can bring.  Now through foliage season I have to think a bit more about travel planning because of how jammed up 16, 95 and the local roads get.  Numerous local places I enjoy going to the rest of the year I completely avoid right now.  But, I realize the seasonal annoyance all serves to benefit me in the long run even though I don't rely on tourism for my personal income.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## HowieT2 (May 25, 2020)

skiur said:


> If you live in NY you can order from here and get free delivery.....I ordered and got my order the next day.
> 
> https://taprm.com/



you can only get the Lawson’s brewed in ct, not anything from waitsfield.

i think it’s misguided to believe that vt is somehow unique in being leery of outsiders.  The same sentiment exists in other tourist locales whether it’s the berkshires, Catskills, jersey shore or the hamptons.  People are scared and freaking out.  It’s easy and understandable to blame the govt and the lockdown orders but what I’m seeing and hearing, is that people are afraid to reengage even after the orders have been lifted.  We are going into phase one of the lifting of our lockdown, and most people I’ve spoken to aren’t ready to go out to restaurants or return to their offices even though it will be legally permissible.  It’s my nieces daughters 3rd birthday today and my niece won’t even let her mother come in to her house.  My in-laws are holed up in the berkshires and I doubt they will interact with anyone, their children included, until there is a vaccine.  Fear is a terrible thing.


----------



## tumbler (May 25, 2020)

What I don't get is how the virus is any different in VT than in MA?  If I have been quarantined in my house for the past 9 weeks in MA why do I need to do 2 weeks if I go to VT?  I'm not talking about doing anything different in VT than I would do in MA.  I can play golf in MA, why can i not play in VT before 14 days?  Why can I not go to the market with a mask on like I would in MA?

Having lived in the MRV full time for many years and still have a home and good friends there, the out of state xenophobia has really escalated as Laser said.  My friends are divided about it between safety and the economy and the right of a property owner to occupy their property.  The out of stater disdain has always been there, but now public safety gives everyone an excuse.  Would be curious to know the breakdown and % of primary and second home owners that contribute to the MRV Relief fund.


----------



## JimG. (May 25, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Fear is a terrible thing.



I get the fear. But basing it on the color of a license plate is "racism".

More and more I'm leaning towards a NY ski pass only this upcoming season. I don't go skiing to deal with fear, anger, and stereotyping. Pretty funny to say being that I'm going to limit my skiing to NY only! 

I'm guessing that in the 21-22 season states that shun out of staters will be BEGGING them to return because the industry and those states are hurting for revenue.


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## djd66 (May 25, 2020)

Has anyone with out of state plates been up to the MRV recently?  I would be curious to hear of any first hand accounts and if you felt unwelcome or unsafe.


----------



## icecoast1 (May 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I get the fear. But basing it on the color of a license plate is "racism"..



Yup, also pretty misinformed an ignorant as many parts of NY have the same low ( or lower) case rates as Vermont but people see the yellow plates and automatically assume you are from NYC.  Maybe these people should just stay inside for the next year until we get a vaccine or herd immunity


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## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2020)

It's becoming very aggravating.  

My wife (Vermonter) hasn't seen her family in months now, usually we go to Vermont quite a bit, and has a new little niece she'd like to see to boot.  I would understand completely if the science backed things up, but Vermont is basically being anti-science now with how ridiculous they're taking this.  They can come HERE to NJ easier than we can go THERE to VT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Assuming what I read on here's correct it arguably stricter up there than here in my rural NJ county, which has the same number of people dead as in the entire state of Vermont.  Again, I go on what I read here (limited base of Vermont posters), but if it's accurate it sounds like State of Vermont is approaching Salem Witch Trials levels of lunacy.  More people die from flu/pneumonia per year in Vermont than the 54 people who've died from COVID19 thus far for heaven's sake.


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## slatham (May 25, 2020)

So I finally came up Thursday, heading back tomorrow. I’ve been in stay at home mode since mid-March. 14 day added quarantine in VT before going to any store, grocery, gas, restaurant etc? Stupid. We are well attuned to masks, social distancing, etc and have been beyond safe (and well).

But given all the unmasked VT locals at hardware stores and grocery stores and a walk up pizza window (!) we saw as we drove by I think our plan of not going anywhere (wide ski trail hiking the exception) worked in our favor. But the local businesses lost a bit (more) business.

Beautiful weekend up here.  

Stay safe.


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## Smellytele (May 25, 2020)

To argue against VT’s lockdown by saying NJ is more lenient then VT and NJ has more deaths in a rural county is rather stupid. This is the exact reason they don’t want people traveling to their state which may cause more cases. How is this so hard to understand?
Do I 100% agree with them? No but it isn’t my state so I have no say in the matter nor do most of you.


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## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *To argue against VT’s lockdown by saying NJ is more lenient then VT and NJ has more deaths in a rural county is rather stupid. *This is the exact reason they don’t want people traveling to their state which may cause more cases. *How is this so hard to understand?*Do I 100% agree with them? No but it isn’t my state so I have no say in the matter nor do most of you.



It's not, and the answer is you're not following the science & math involved as well as the fact you didnt pay attention to the fact I specifically posted about _"my rural NJ county"_ (i.e. not a COVID19 hotbed). 

  I'll skip the lockdown science & math as it's been beaten to death already on threads here whether some choose to listen to it or instead subscribe to the media fear-mongering; but as for my hills & horse farms pocket of NJ, in my rural NJ county our death rate while worse than Vermont isn't terribly horrific.  We're one of the least affected counties in NJ, and over 1/2 of our deaths occurred in a state prison via people who arent even from the county.   It's pretty obvious & frustrating that many Americans havent figured out that every state in America isnt NY or NJ, but they also havent figured out that much of NY and NJ isnt the "NY and NJ" they're hearing about on television (thank god).


----------



## Smellytele (May 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not, and the answer is you're not following the science & math involved as well as the fact you didnt pay attention to the fact I specifically posted about _"my rural NJ county"_ (i.e. not a COVID19 hotbed).
> 
> I'll skip the lockdown science & math as it's been beaten to death already on threads here whether some choose to listen to it or instead subscribe to the media fear-mongering; but as for my hills & horse farms pocket of NJ, in my rural NJ county our death rate while worse than Vermont isn't terribly horrific.  We're one of the least affected counties in NJ, and over 1/2 of our deaths occurred in a state prison via people who arent even from the county.   It's pretty obvious & frustrating that many Americans havent figured out that every state in America isnt NY or NJ, but they also havent figured out that much of NY and NJ isnt the "NY and NJ" they're hearing about on television (thank god).



So your non hot bed small county has more deaths than all of VT and is more lenient? Do I have that part right? 
Not saying anything about the science that you know everything about.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> So *your non hot bed small county has more deaths than all of VT and is more lenient? Do I have that part right?*



It has fewer deaths.   And if you adjust it with ex-State prison figures as one should, it has < 1/2 the deaths.

  Of course, that's not logical as you need to adjust it for population, then it has about 2.5x more deaths than Vermont.   Guess what?   That's still fairly trivial as Vermont has only about 1 COVID19 death per 12,000 people, which gets us back to the main point regarding Vermont taking lockdown regulations over-the-top.  Vermont's COVID19 death rate is lower than Vermont's annual influenza/pneumonia death rate.  I genuinely wonder how many Vermonters are aware of that?  My guess is not many.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 25, 2020)

My personal experience with a few VT hospitals has been this:

In the early onset of Covid, they actually admitted way more people than they should have.  They did get pretty busy with brief hospitalizations, just not ICU level care. There wasn't a strong enough playbook 6-8 weeks ago, so anyone with a diagnosis and even moderate symptoms spent a night or three in the hospital because there was fear these folks would quickly crash hard and end up on a vent. My company actually supplied a couple dozen vents to the state in early April because what they got from the National stockpile was garbage.  I had a lot of daily conversations with medical leaders at these hospitals who were totally freaked out then.  Capital expenditure decisions that typically take months to a year were green lighted in hours. 

Fast forward to today and those same medical leaders who were freaked out are now pretty calm and understanding that while this virus can be downright deadly for a very small percentage of people; for the most part it is manageable and VT isn't at risk of getting overwhelmed.  

Seems to me the caution in moving forward towards normal now is more about fear of litigation and political fallout than actual deadly statistics. 

 That's not to minimize 100k people dying. That's not to minimize my own concern that I could become infected and be unlucky with my own immune response.  While minimal, healthy people in their 40s like me have died from this virus. I'll take many precautions during my work activities visiting ICUs around New England all week.  I'm in no rush to hang in a packed music club anytime soon, but I'm not freaked out carrying on 90+% of my typical life activities.  I'll wear a mask in a store no problem.  I won't shake hands and I'll wash my own frequently. 

The 14 day quarantine BS needs to stop though.  All 50 states should rapidly open.  Let consumers, businesses and employees decide their personal risk tolerance. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Keelhauled (May 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Again, I go on what I read here (limited base of Vermont posters), but if it's accurate it sounds like State of Vermont is approaching Salem Witch Trials levels of lunacy.


Oh bullshit, you know not of what you speak.  The state has been gradually opening back up for weeks now.  Most businesses are open in some fashion, with the major exceptions of restaurant dining rooms and barbershops/salons/similar.  As for the former, outdoor dining is now allowed, and the latter will be reopening on Friday.  Unfortunately but understandably, the summer fairs have been canceled.  Otherwise I expect the state will be mostly back to normal, albeit with a lot of curbside transactions, in the next month or so.


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> *Oh bullshit, you know not of what you speak.*  The state has been gradually opening back up for weeks now.  Most businesses are open in some fashion, with the major exceptions of restaurant dining rooms and barbershops/salons/similar.  As for the former, outdoor dining is now allowed, and the latter will be reopening on Friday.  Unfortunately but understandably, the summer fairs have been canceled.  Otherwise* I expect the state will be mostly back to normal*, albeit with a lot of curbside transactions, *in the next month or so.*



This is the same state with about 50 total deaths in 625,000 people, right?  Yeah,  that's pretty much exactly what I'm speaking about,  but thanks for confirming.


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## Keelhauled (May 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the same state with about 50 total deaths in 625,000 people, right?  Yeah,  that's pretty much exactly what I'm speaking about,  but thanks for confirming.




I don't know what to tell you.  My life has changed only to the extent that I carry a mask in my truck for when I go grocery shopping.  Otherwise it is the same as it ever was, as is true for everyone I know.  Being considered an essential worker means that my employment has stayed constant, so that colors my experience a bit, but the Salem Witch Trials these are not.  If you would rather us walk away entirely from everything that has kept the state largely unscathed so far, please feel free to keep yourself and your stupid ideas in New Jersey.


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## dustyroads (May 26, 2020)

I guess we can assume that those Vermonters who yap about people coming into their state never have or never will travel outside of Vermont.


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## Smellytele (May 26, 2020)

dustyroads said:


> I guess we can assume that those Vermonters who yap about people coming into their state never have or never will travel outside of Vermont.



This is so off mark right now. At this moment they probably are not leaving VT but they don’t want people from states that have higher numbers than they have coming to their state. 


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## skiur (May 26, 2020)

Vermont will have to return to normal soon, it's economy cannot survive without tourism and most of those tourists are from the NY and Boston areas.  They can't have their cake and eat it too, the economy wouldn't survive.


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## NYDB (May 26, 2020)

skiur said:


> Vermont will have to return to normal soon, it's economy cannot survive without tourism and most of those tourists are from the NY and Boston areas.  They can't have their cake and eat it too, the economy wouldn't survive.



I don't know if that's the case.  There may already be a bunch of NY and MA people up there riding out the summer in their second homes since camps, schools have canceled and WFH is the new normal for awhile.  

anecdotally, I know several friends who have been 'up north' since March with their families.  That doesn't help hotels, B&B's etc. but I've heard trails, golf courses and mountains have been packed.


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> * If you would rather us* *walk away entirely from everything that has kept the state largely unscathed so far, please feel free to keep yourself and your stupid ideas in New Jersey.*



What you think has _"kept the state largely unscathed"_ has not done so; correlation does not imply causation.  

 The world is starting to figure this out & it will be widely known before too long despite politicians of both domestic parties & various international nations telling you otherwise to protect their self-interest.  

The lockdown versus non-lockdown data are too disparate, the results too widely varied, and with little cohesiveness of outcome effectiveness in either direction.  Lockdown has done little else but harm lives & wreck global economies.


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## flakeydog (May 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the same state with about 50 total deaths in 625,000 people, right?



Yeah- that's right.  Were you hoping for more?  

This did not happen by accident, Vermont is doing the right thing and continues to do so.  We could have been Corona-central up here had we not taken the measures we did (and continue to).  Sorry the caution tape is still up on what you (and 100,000 of your friends) view as your personal amusement park.  We still have to live up here.  

I hear Lake of the Ozarks is very nice this time of year.  Their philosophy on business and social distance there seems more in line with yours.


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## Smellytele (May 26, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Yeah- that's right.  Were you hoping for more?
> 
> This did not happen by accident, Vermont is doing the right thing and continues to do so.  We could have been Corona-central up here had we not taken the measures we did (and continue to).  Sorry the caution tape is still up on what you (and 100,000 of your friends) view as your personal amusement park.  We still have to live up here.
> 
> I hear Lake of the Ozarks is very nice this time of year.  Their philosophy on business and social distance there seems more in line with yours.



Just watch out for Marty Bird and his cohorts.


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## tumbler (May 26, 2020)

I wish there was an app that could prove through my phone gps that it has not moved in 9 weeks, therefore quarantined and I could go to the grocery store and gas station before 2 weeks.  I know quite a few families that have been in VT since the ski shutdown in March and they get constantly questioned.


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> This did not happen by accident, Vermont is doing the right thing and continues to do so. * We could have been Corona-central up here had we not taken the measures we did (and continue to).  *



Wrong; you may believe that, but it is false, and as I noted the data are beginning to be virtually incontrovertible to deny this. 

 In fact, numerous states infection rates decreased after ending lockdown.  One hypothesis is that by keeping everyone bottled inside it on balance actually had a more of a negative effect than a positive effect.


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## WWF-VT (May 26, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Has anyone with out of state plates been up to the MRV recently?  I would be curious to hear of any first hand accounts and if you felt unwelcome or unsafe.



Went up this weekend and saw other MA and out of state plates driving around the MRV.  Bottom line is that we packed everything we needed so no trips to the Mehuron's, Bisbees,or even take out food.  I did go fishing in the Mad River early in the morning each day (15 trout!) and we hiked on the Catamount trail and at Mt Ellen and saw very few other people.  My kid that lives in VT pre-loaded my refrigerator with Sip of Sunshine - curbside drive thru.The only money I spent was on gas at Valero.  We did not feel unwelcome or unsafe, we just tried to play by the rules.


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## djd66 (May 26, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Went up this weekend and saw other MA and out of state plates driving around the MRV.  Bottom line is that we packed everything we needed so no trips to the Mehuron's, Bisbees,or even take out food.  I did go fishing in the Mad River early in the morning each day (15 trout!) and we hiked on the Catamount trail and at Mt Ellen and saw very few other people.  My kid that lives in VT pre-loaded my refrigerator with Sip of Sunshine - curbside drive thru.The only money I spent was on gas at Valero.  We did not feel unwelcome or unsafe, we just tried to play by the rules.



Thanks for the insight on what I can expect. When I go up, I do not plan on visiting any stores either.


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## Smellytele (May 27, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Thanks for the insight on what I can expect. When I go up, I do not plan on visiting any stores either.



You should and help out that economy you are worried about.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## slatham (May 27, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> You should and help out that economy you are worried about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes that is one side of the argument, but given the official guideline to quarantine for 14 days, the official view of VT is to NOT do business when in State. Before I went up to SoVT (sorry for referencing a non-MRV region) I asked a local friend what his read was - Bring everything and interface with no-one, or bring your business to local establishments. He suggested the former. Thats what we did. 

I hope that when we come up in a few weeks the situation will be clearer that we can and should do business with the local establishments. I certainly prefer to support them, as long as they want my bizz.


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## Smellytele (May 27, 2020)

slatham said:


> Yes that is one side of the argument, but given the official guideline to quarantine for 14 days, the official view of VT is to NOT do business when in State. Before I went up to SoVT (sorry for referencing a non-MRV region) I asked a local friend what his read was - Bring everything and interface with no-one, or bring your business to local establishments. He suggested the former. Thats what we did.
> 
> I hope that when we come up in a few weeks the situation will be clearer that we can and should do business with the local establishments. I certainly prefer to support them, as long as they want my bizz.



I was poking at them because they said they were concerned with the economy when really they just want to go to VT for their own selfish reasons.


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## slatham (May 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wrong; you may believe that, but it is false, and as I noted the data are beginning to be virtually incontrovertible to deny this.
> 
> In fact, numerous states infection rates decreased after ending lockdown.  One hypothesis is that by keeping everyone bottled inside it on balance actually had a more of a negative effect than a positive effect.



If you are arguing that the initial lock down was unwarranted based on changes in R0 post opening up, you are wrong - this is apples and oranges. The only way to determine if the initial lockdown was ineffective is to compare it to a "control" - a State that both did not lock down, and did not learn the lessons of the pandemic (masks, hand washing, etc). Such a control does not exist.

What I think you are arguing, and this data supports, is that lifting the lockdown has not resulted in a spike in cases and increase in R0. That would argue for those States that are being too slow in opening to accelerate the process. I hope this trend continues.


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## slatham (May 27, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I was poking at them because they said they were concerned with the economy when really they just want to go to VT for their own selfish reasons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Got it. To be clear, I went for my own selfish reasons. But supporting local businesses is also in my own selfish interest - I want them to remain in business!


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## LasersInTheTaiga (May 27, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> I did go fishing in the Mad River early in the morning each day (15 trout!)



Pardon my ignorance, I've only down this out west -- what do we have in the MRV, brookies?


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## WWF-VT (May 27, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Pardon my ignorance, I've only down this out west -- what do we have in the MRV, brookies?



Mostly stocked rainbows, some brook trout and for all the times I have fished in the Mad River I have only caught 2 brown trout.


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## djd66 (May 27, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> You should and help out that economy you are worried about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I would be happy to support the local economy if I am welcome to spend money in any of the local establishments. However if I am to follow the guidelines of the state of VT, I need to come with my own supplies and stay in my house.  This is selfish? 

Sorry, I don't get your logic.


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## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2020)

slatham said:


> What I think you are arguing, and this data supports, is that lifting the lockdown has not resulted in a spike in cases and increase in R0. That would argue for those States that are being too slow in opening to accelerate the process. I hope this trend continues.



That's precisely what I've been stating.  

Though as to your first part, I'm not even sure the initial lockdowns in non-hotspot areas helped much.  It's very difficult to compare as you note, but there are some states like South Dakota that did virtually nothing other than close schools & dial back large gatherings which are not having any COVID19 problems.


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## Hawk (May 27, 2020)

I went Thursday night and came back Saturday night. We shut down the heat, put all our ski gear away, spring cleaned, grabbed all the booze, pantry items and freezer stuff.  Enough for about 3 weeks I bet!   We did all the right things so I am not going in details on how safe we were.  I will say this, There are large numbers of the local residents that think it is over and do not social distance or wear masks.  I saw this all over as I drove around and heard it in conversations with people up here.  With tourist season coming it will be interesting to see if the number go up.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 27, 2020)

another good thread ruined.   


Good Work AZ...


----------



## ScottySkis (May 27, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> another good thread ruined.
> 
> 
> Good Work AZ...



+1000&#55357;&#56867;&#55357;&#56867;&#55357;&#56867;


----------



## p_levert (May 27, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> +1000������



Yeah, this has been an amazing thread, going strong since 2005 with 8,296 replies.  Let's keep it going in a positive way.


----------



## Hawk (May 28, 2020)

Sorry.  Back to the regularly scheduled program.

FYI, the mountain bike trails are in the best shape for May I have ever seen.  Usually it is a total mud bath.  We did Revolution, Evolution, decapitator to Swell hill and then down plumb line and there was basically no real mud.  They have done a fine job up there.


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## ThinkSnow (May 28, 2020)

May 28, 2020 

I  understand that these are difficult times for many, and I hope this  email is reaching you in a place where you are healthy and safe, and  hanging in there during this new daily life. We think of everyone in our  community every day and wonder how folks are doing. We miss you and  truly hope you are well. Unfortunately,  I have made the hard decision, with input from Sugarbush Resort and the  support of the Vermont Adaptive Board of Directors, to postpone the  construction of our new adaptive sports center at Mt. Ellen at Sugarbush  until Spring 2021.  While  it is disappointing to be delayed, I believe this is the right and  prudent decision now, given the many variables and open-ended questions  about our ever-changing environment during this Coronavirus pandemic. Thoughtful consideration went into this decision including: 

In  April, Vermont Adaptive learned it had the green light from Sugarbush  to proceed with the build of the facility, pending approval of all  permits and only if working in compliance with the State of Vermont Stay  Home Stay Safe orders from the governor.
On  May 1, given the CDC predictions that a second wave of COVID-19 could  hit in the Fall, potentially shutting down construction projects  indefinitely, Win Smith and the Sugarbush Resort Leadership Team  suggested a delay due to the construction project’s timeline of seven  months to completion.
Because  the new building includes renovations to the existing bathrooms, dining  services, and locker rooms in the Mt. Ellen base lodge, the  construction must be completed, and a certificate of occupancy must be  obtained, one month prior to opening day at Mt. Ellen next season. 
While  the builder on the project feels this timeline is possible, it cannot  be guaranteed in the event that the State of Vermont orders another shut  down. There are just too many variables.
I  am confident in this decision. We will continue to move forward and  build a stronger rapport with Alterra Mountain Co. and the Sugarbush  team, as well as fundraise and secure in-kind donations in the  meantime. Most permits have been approved and all should be complete  within the next 60 days. We will get extensions on these permits for the  new build timeline. Fundraising Update
Thus far we have raised approximately $1.5 million in cash and in-kind donations and will continue to raise funds  for the facility and a sustainability fund. Jenn Rand, our Director  of Development, is working closely with a small committee to develop new  ideas and strategies for raising the remaining funds needed. If you can  help, please be in touch with her at jenn@vermontadaptive.org.  In-Kind Donations
Jeff  Alexander, our Director of Strategic Partnerships, has been working to  secure in-kind donations of building materials and labor. He is working  closely with Naylor and Breen Builders to establish relationships with  their extensive network of suppliers and contractors. He has obtained  in-kind commitments from window and flooring suppliers, as well as an  office furniture outfitter. This will help off-set the actual cash in  hand we need to raise. If you have any leads, please reach out to Jeff  at partners@vermontadaptive.org.  We  look forward to keeping up the momentum because this is absolutely a  necessity for our growing programs and will make a difference for all  our participants and the Vermont Adaptive community. Most  of all, thank you. Your unwavering support of our mission and what we  do for our athletes and participants is not taken for granted. We  couldn’t do what we do – and serve this important community – without  you. Thank you again for your donation and support. Please reach out if you have any questions. 



 
Erin Fernandez
Executive Director


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## Hawk (May 29, 2020)

I don't know what to say about that.  It's sad.  People were very psyched to get that done.  There are lots of things that are getting postponed or canceled that help people.  What can they do.


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## machski (May 29, 2020)

Anything that isn't completely new and "extra" to the current offering almost has to be delayed if what is being redone is critical to ops for the coming season.  Just too much unknown risk in construction timelines given the environment we find ourselves in.  At least it will still be done for 21-22 and not just shelved indefinitely.

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## icecoast1 (May 29, 2020)

machski said:


> At least it will still be done for 21-22 and not just shelved indefinitely



MAYBE.  If the upcoming ski season shapes up like its looking it might with greatly reduced capacities and impacts on operation, theres going to be coattails from that  for the 21-22 season after places operate at a loss or barely break even all winter


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## WinS (Jun 5, 2020)

VASS has not completed the capital campaign, so I know they would appreciate any and all new contributions. They have an incredibly generous $1 million match from an anonymous donor. We are proud to support them as well as High Fives and the Kelly Brush Foundation. They all do amazing work.


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 9, 2020)

Tax Deductible Donation Link:

https://vermontadaptive.salsalabs.org/makeadonation/index.html


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## Hawk (Jun 10, 2020)

Thanks Thinksnow.  We were thinking to doing just that.


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## Hawk (Jun 10, 2020)

More bad news in the valley.  

https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/14639-mad-river-barn-seeks-a-path-forward

Heather rips the governor pretty good.  I can't blame her.  There is a strong tone in this article about the VT Government that has been expressed many times on here by lots of people.

Does anyone know what is wrong with Andy?  The article says he is going through medical treatment and then moving to Florida.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Hawk said:


> More bad news in the valley.
> 
> https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/local-news/14639-mad-river-barn-seeks-a-path-forward
> 
> ...



$49 an hour to wait tables?!

And most of her anger was towards the legislature.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 10, 2020)

You can average $50/hr as a waiter at high end city restaurant.  

In ski country VT? Definitely not.  Maybe at a place like Hen of the Wood in Burlington if the server is very skilled at selling wine.  Maybe...

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## Hawk (Jun 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> $49 an hour to wait tables?!
> 
> And most of her anger was towards the legislature.
> 
> ...



Yes you are correct.  But the governor for the slow process for reopening and no clear direction on how and when as well as the legislature for installing unfriendly to business policies that are crushing.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You can average $50/hr as a waiter at high end city restaurant.
> 
> In ski country VT? Definitely not.  Maybe at a place like Hen of the Wood in Burlington if the server is very skilled at selling wine.  Maybe...
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I didn't believe it either.  But the article says:



> Brown said that the impact of the political climate in Vermont on their ability to run a successful business was significant. She cited a minimum wage law that increased front-of-the-house hourly wages by 50 percent which means that front-of-the-house workers (receiving tips) are earning an average of $49 an hour which can’t be shared with back-of-the-house employees.



That's crazy.  And if it is true, I think this plays a role in the owner's woes.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yes you are correct.  But the governor for the slow process for reopening and no clear direction on how and when as well as the legislature for installing unfriendly to business policies that are crushing.



As to the Vermont response to COVID: it is what it is.  We have multiple pages/threads on the debate as to this.  The big issues with Vermont are (a) limited hospital capacity, and (b) older demographic.  

As to the legislature:  another thing that we have pages upon pages of comments about.


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## cdskier (Jun 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I didn't believe it either.  But the article says:
> 
> 
> 
> That's crazy.  And if it is true, I think this plays a role in the owner's woes.



I'm wondering if that is some sort of typo. I read the article and that part raised an eyebrow for me as well. I don't really get what she's referring to though. Unless I'm missing something, VT raised the minimum wage effective Jan 1 to $10.96 for non-tipped employees (from 10.78 previously). The minimum wage for tipped employees raised to half that ($5.48 from a previously rate of 5.39). I don't see where the law is that increased hourly wages by 50% for tipped employees. Maybe it was a few years ago and not something that recent? Because at least for this year, we're talking about a 9 cent an hour increase for those tipped employees (if we assume they were paying only the minimum to begin with). That's a little over a 1.5% increase. Certainly nowhere near 50%.


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## tumbler (Jun 11, 2020)

I think that she meant the front of house employees were averaging $49 per hour with tips.  The minimum wage went up but it is a bit misleading that they are paying $49 per hour to each employee.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 11, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think that she meant the front of house employees were averaging $49 per hour with tips.  The minimum wage went up but it is a bit misleading that they are paying $49 per hour to each employee.



I understand her frustration, but the challenges going forward, imho, are more to do with people not traveling than any government edict.  The quarantine, what's left of it, could be lifted tomorrow, and at least judging from the people I speak to, most arent remotely ready to stay at an inn or attend a wedding.  NYC is on the cusp of "reopening" legally but that doesnt mean people are going back to their offices right away.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I understand her frustration, but the challenges going forward, imho, are more to do with people not traveling than any government edict.  The quarantine, what's left of it, could be lifted tomorrow, and at least judging from the people I speak to, most arent remotely ready to stay at an inn or attend a wedding.  NYC is on the cusp of "reopening" legally but that doesnt mean people are going back to their offices right away.



Exactly 


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## Boxtop Willie (Jun 12, 2020)

Not sure if I agree. Granted this is anecdotal, but I have a home on Lake Champlain that I rent out in the summer. I'm fully booked until mid-September with no discounts. Busiest rental season I've ever had and it filled fast. Calls keep coming in. All are for a month and agree to the guidelines (quarantine, distancing, etc.) Friends with similar situations are also busy and full. Some people are traveling.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 12, 2020)

While not Vermont I just booked a place in the finger lakes for 7/4/11.  Pickings were slim being that it was fairly last minute. 

Quite frankly I'm looking forward to lake living for a week  I need to get away...


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## mbedle (Jun 12, 2020)

$49 per hour over the course of the entire year does seem crazy. I do think that some of the confusion is coming from they way minimum wage laws work in Vermont and other states. In Vermont, an employer is required to make sure that tipped employees (front of the house) get the minimum wage though a combination of the base pay and tips. So basically if you pay a tipped employee $5.48, they need to make enough in tips to bring that hourly wage up to $10.96 per hour. When an employer does this, its called taking a tip credit. If the amount the employee makes does not equal out to $10.96 per hour, the employer must pay the difference. However, when doing this, the employees are not allow to pool tips with non tipped employees (i.e., the back of the house employees). That in effect forces the employer to pay back of the house employees the full minimum wage. In order to allow tipped employees to share tips with back of the house employees, all employees must be paid the $10.96 minimum wage.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 16, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Not sure if I agree. Granted this is anecdotal, but I have a home on Lake Champlain that I rent out in the summer. I'm fully booked until mid-September with no discounts. Busiest rental season I've ever had and it filled fast. Calls keep coming in. All are for a month and agree to the guidelines (quarantine, distancing, etc.) Friends with similar situations are also busy and full. Some people are traveling.



I hope you’re right.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 16, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> While not Vermont I just booked a place in the finger lakes for 7/4/11.  Pickings were slim being that it was fairly last minute.
> 
> Quite frankly I'm looking forward to lake living for a week  I need to get away...



have you ever been up there in the summer before?  It’s great.  Way underrated.


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## JimG. (Jun 16, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> have you ever been up there in the summer before?  It’s great.  Way underrated.



My son Peter works and lives in Ithaca. Another area my wife and I have considered retiring to.

Great outdoor living.


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## cdskier (Jun 16, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> have you ever been up there in the summer before?  It’s great.  Way underrated.



I fully agree...

At the moment I'm still waiting a bit for the wineries to get all this new "normal" stuff sorted out and let things settle down a bit before I head up there though. Thinking maybe late July or early August...


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## Boxtop Willie (Jun 16, 2020)

Finger Lakes area is beautiful...in September. Kids went to school in Geneva, Syracuse and Rochester. Off season, like January, and it's tundra. Cold, windy and flat as Kansas. Skiing Bristol is fun, but a bit limited.


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## cdskier (Jun 16, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Finger Lakes area is beautiful...in September. Kids went to school in Geneva, Syracuse and Rochester. Off season, like January, and it's tundra. Cold, windy and flat as Kansas. Skiing Bristol is fun, but a bit limited.



I'll disagree with it not being beautiful in the off-season. I think it is beautiful up there in the winter. Never really thought of it as flat either. I went to Rochester for college. Still odd to me that Rochester is technically considered part of the Finger Lakes. It feels a world apart from the area around the actual lakes themselves. 

I'll agree with your assessment of Bristol though. It is fun, but nothing compared to ski areas in the Adirondacks or New England. For being only 45 minutes from Rochester though, it was perfect for day trips during college.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> have you ever been up there in the summer before?  It’s great.  Way underrated.



Oh yeah I've been there in the summer...  so nice. 

I can't wait!


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## Smellytele (Jun 17, 2020)

Finger lakes nice - rotchester not so much.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 18, 2020)

A huge bonus I just realized is that Other Half Brewing's "Rochester" outpost is ~ 8 miles from the house we rented!   Can't wait to grab fresh beer from them on a daily basis and bring home a treasure trove to drink for the next few weeks


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 18, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Finger lakes nice - rotchester not so much.e



I've never been to Rochester, but my company has a building there & I know when coworkers need to go for a site visit & work late they get escorts back to their cars in the parking lot.  That tells me all I need to know.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> My son Peter works and lives in Ithaca. Another area my wife and I have considered retiring to.
> 
> Great outdoor living.



My daughter is up there now and I went to college there.  I could easily see living there.


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## JimG. (Jun 18, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> My daughter is up there now and I went to college there.  I could easily see living there.



Peter and his GF graduated from Cornell; she is currently in veterinary school there. My oldest David went to RIT which is in a suburb of Rochester and very nice. City proper not so much.

My youngest starts college at Alfred University late August. About an hour south of Rochester, small school and beautiful location but pretty isolated. James loved it when we visited which was about 2 weeks before the virus hell broke loose officially. I wasn't wild about him being so isolated at the time but think differently about that now.


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## cdskier (Jun 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> My oldest David went to RIT which is in a suburb of Rochester and very nice. City proper not so much.



Good old Henrietta! I know it well (or at least I did 15-20 years ago) :-D Go Tigers!


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## JimG. (Jun 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Good old Henrietta! I know it well (or at least I did 15-20 years ago) :-D Go Tigers!



It came down to a choice between RIT and Alfred for James. It was a tough call for him. 

I personally love RIT and believe the coop program they have is the best in the country. 

Wow way off topic sorry.


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## Boxtop Willie (Jun 19, 2020)

Daughter is a Sophomore at RIT in Computer Animation. Loves it there. She can't wait to go back.  They've announced that in-peson classes willstart up in August.


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## cdskier (Jun 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It came down to a choice between RIT and Alfred for James. It was a tough call for him.
> 
> I personally love RIT and believe the coop program they have is the best in the country.
> 
> Wow way off topic sorry.



Hah...I'm pretty amazed that we went from Sugarbush -> Vermont -> Finger Lakes -> Rochester -> RIT somehow!

Definitely a great school. Although I'm not personally happy about some of the changes since I graduated (I was a huge proponent of their previous quarter system vs switching to semesters for example). I also think the price today is insane (although this applies to most schools). Hard to believe that tuition has more than doubled in the ~15 years since I graduated!


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 19, 2020)

I have that same thought about tuition every time I make a payment for my son except its been 20 years for me...

Back to SugarBush

are they opening for summer?  I haven't seen any email updates.


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## tumbler (Jun 19, 2020)

Looked like they were load testing Bravo yesterday.  I think they do not know if they are opening or not.  Depends what the next state directive is.


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## cdskier (Jun 19, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Looked like they were load testing Bravo yesterday.  I think they do not know if they are opening or not.  Depends what the next state directive is.



The latest Win's word talked about the plans for fireworks for July 4th (watch from the parking lot by your car, limited number of parking spots). It also mentioned golf being open. But beyond that no mention of other summer activities yet. I agree that I think they're pretty much waiting to see what the state continues to say. I still haven't been up to my condo since things shut down in March to do my usual end of season clean up.


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## nhskier1969 (Aug 2, 2020)

So on those super cold days, no Allyn's Lodge?


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## Hawk (Aug 5, 2020)

I would bet they will have to limit the capacity.  How they would do that is probably not determined yet.  I am sure Patrol will be there and if it was an emergency they would let you in.  I think if you made it up there you can probably make your way to the bottom.


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## ducky (Aug 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I would bet they will have to limit the capacity.  How they would do that is probably not determined yet.  I am sure Patrol will be there and if it was an emergency they would let you in.  I think if you made it up there you can probably make your way to the bottom.



The current Vermont regs are 50% of fire marshall posted capacity, up from 25% last week. The big question will be how they regulate and enforce State quarantine rules which require anyone coming from a county with cases higher than 400/100,000 to 14 day quarantine, or 7 days with a test. Possibly using a tracing app? Guessing a large proportion of weekend skiers are normally from higher risk areas, though NY has changed significantly, Boston not so much.

Our business has been asking all visitors using the honor system and we have only turned away two groups this summer. Masks are already mandated and we require sanitizer use to enter. Even then we stay 6' apart.

Stowe and Killington, and everywhere else, are facing the same dilemma. Perhaps the areas will get together and figure out an industry-wide strategy. I'd be surprised if Rob Katz and Rusty Gregory had not discussed it with 49 ski areas between them.

https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## teleo (Aug 10, 2020)

https://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php/news/sports/14910-yes-virginia-there-will-be-a-ski-season


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## mtl1076 (Aug 13, 2020)

This crew is slacking......

Thanks Win for 19 amazing years at Sugarbush.  See you on the mountain!


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## mikec142 (Aug 13, 2020)

Just saw this on the MRG facebook feed. 

Win, thanks for making Sugarbush such a fantastic place.


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## cdskier (Aug 13, 2020)

Ok, I honestly didn't expect Win to retire so soon after the Alterra sale. But congrats and good luck to John Hammond on being the new Sugarbush President!

https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins-word/handing-over-the-reins/


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## teleo (Aug 13, 2020)

Win, thanks for everything you've done for sugarbush and the valley over 19 years.

John, congrats and keep it going.

Hope to see you both on the mountain, whatever the covid operations turn out to be.


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## cdskier (Aug 13, 2020)

PS...I hope as part of the transition Win tells John about this forum! :razz: :beer:


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## shadyjay (Aug 13, 2020)

Thank you Win for everything you've done for Sugarbush since 2001.  It was a pleasure to work for you and the mtn for 10 years, and I can't wait to visit and ride again, and this winter.  

Enjoy your retirement!


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## Hawk (Aug 13, 2020)

This is not unexpected but still I wish Win stayed for a little longer.  There still are a few things that were needed to be done.  I fear that Without Win things might get lost.  I wish him well and hope to see him like usual on those early runs.


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## Smellytele (Aug 13, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ok, I honestly didn't expect Win to retire so soon after the Alterra sale. But congrats and good luck to John Hammond on being the new Sugarbush President!
> 
> https://www.sugarbush.com/blog/wins-word/handing-over-the-reins/



John Hammond from ingen, starter of Jurassic Park?


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## cdskier (Aug 13, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> John Hammond from ingen, starter of Jurassic Park?



LOL! He'll spare no expense!


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## slatham (Aug 13, 2020)

Congrats Win and thanks for all you've done for Sugarbush. Glad to hear you'll be an advisor - that should assure a smooth transition and hopefully no serious deviation from the direction you have set.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *Ok, I honestly didn't expect Win to retire so soon after the Alterra sale.*



Guess all the checkmarks below are checked.



> _I have been asked to remain as president for as long as I wish in order to facilitate a smooth transition, to maintain our commitment to our guests and to the entire Sugarbush community, and to prepare the next generation of leaders to succeed me when I decide to move on to a third career. More importantly, Alterra Mountain Company wants our entire Sugarbush team to remain in place._


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## WinS (Aug 13, 2020)

This will be my last Forum post. It has been fun conversing with all of you over the years. While we did not always agree on everything I always wanted to give you an honest answer, and I have always respected the passion that has been shown here. I feel I am leaving Sugarbush in very good hands with John and the rest of the team. And yes, you will continue to see me out early unless I am skiing elsewhere that day. Thanks you your great support.


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## hovercraft (Aug 13, 2020)

WinS said:


> This will be my last Forum post. It has been fun conversing with all of you over the years. While we did not always agree on everything I always wanted to give you an honest answer, and I have always respected the passion that has been shown here. I feel I am leaving Sugarbush in very good hands with John and the rest of the team. And yes, you will continue to see me our early unless I am skiing elsewhere that day. Thanks you your great support.



See you at Stowe on your other days....


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## ss20 (Aug 13, 2020)

WinS said:


> This will be my last Forum post. It has been fun conversing with all of you over the years. While we did not always agree on everything I always wanted to give you an honest answer, and I have always respected the passion that has been shown here. I feel I am leaving Sugarbush in very good hands with John and the rest of the team. And yes, you will continue to see me our early unless I am skiing elsewhere that day. Thanks you your great support.



Now we just wait for SBsnowmakingfan#1 to sign-up...


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## p_levert (Aug 14, 2020)

WinS said:


> This will be my last Forum post. It has been fun conversing with all of you over the years. While we did not always agree on everything I always wanted to give you an honest answer, and I have always respected the passion that has been shown here. I feel I am leaving Sugarbush in very good hands with John and the rest of the team. And yes, you will continue to see me out early unless I am skiing elsewhere that day. Thanks you your great support.



You have been awesome.  Thanks so much for communicating with us on a regular basis.


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## jimk (Aug 15, 2020)

p_levert said:


> You have been awesome.  Thanks so much for communicating with us on a regular basis.



+1


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## machski (Aug 16, 2020)

Thank you Win and enjoy your retirement.  Well deserved!!

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## MorningWoods (Aug 26, 2020)

WinS said:


> This will be my last Forum post. It has been fun conversing with all of you over the years. While we did not always agree on everything I always wanted to give you an honest answer, and I have always respected the passion that has been shown here. I feel I am leaving Sugarbush in very good hands with John and the rest of the team. And yes, you will continue to see me out early unless I am skiing elsewhere that day. Thanks you your great support.



Thx Win. Appreciate everything you did for the mountain. 

Separate topic. LOVE the new MTB trail Sugarbush Parks built at end of Shady Lane. Someone mentioned to me there is a larger expansion plan for trails. Just curious if anyone has any details? 


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## Hawk (Aug 26, 2020)

I live in that general area.  Those trails were created and maintained for years by the local land owners.  I heard that the mountain might get involved over there a bit but I have not seen or heard anything actually happened with Sugarbush parks.  I was assuming with the current crisis that it got dropped for the foreseeable future.


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## TSQURD (Aug 26, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I live in that general area.  Those trails were created and maintained for years by the local land owners.  I heard that the mountain might get involved over there a bit but I have not seen or heard anything actually happened with Sugarbush parks.  I was assuming with the current crisis that it got dropped for the foreseeable future.



The trail that was there has been bull dozed into a smooth 4' wide jump trail.  The 'new' trail is fun, but its really disappointing that the old school technical trail was flattened to create it.  Really hope if there are plans to extend the new trail it can be done in a way that doesn't ruin the excellent trails that are already there.


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## Hawk (Aug 26, 2020)

Where exactly does the new trail start and end up?  There are actually several routes you can take starting from the upper most concrete vessel on Village Run all the way down to club sugarbush.  Interesting.


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## TSQURD (Aug 26, 2020)

UFO is gone. It’s been plowed from the gnome tree down.  The bottom has been rerouted to above the gate on Norm Robinson Rd. The bridge before the little climb to club Sugarbush has been removed.  They also dozed smooth parts of the snowshoe trail to create a climbing route back to the gnome tree.  Everything above shady lane hasn’t been touched. I don’t believe they are planning to smooth any more, at least not this year.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2020)

Mad River Riders did give a shout-out earlier this summer on social media to Sugarbush Parks for putting in the jump trail off Shady Lane...so they were involved at least with that specific part.


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## TSQURD (Aug 26, 2020)

I don’t think mrr was involved much with the new trail, beyond adding it to the trail map - Trevor and a crew from Sugarbush did all of the work


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> I don’t think mrr was involved much with the new trail, beyond adding it to the trail map - Trevor and a crew from Sugarbush did all of the work



Sorry that wasn't clear in my post. My "they were involved" was referring to Sugarbush Parks, not MRR. MRR just gave the shout-out. I didn't mean to imply anything beyond that done by MRR for this specific section that we're talking about.


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## ducky (Aug 27, 2020)

Anyone read about Stowe doing a reservation-only plan this winter with priority given to pass holders? 

_But the most important change is that for your safety, we will be managing mountain access this season with a new reservation system that gives pass holders priority access. We know this season will be different, but we want to give you peace of mind knowing you’ll have the space you need at our resort. _


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## cdskier (Aug 27, 2020)

ducky said:


> Anyone read about Stowe doing a reservation-only plan this winter with priority given to pass holders?
> 
> _But the most important change is that for your safety, we will be managing mountain access this season with a new reservation system that gives pass holders priority access. We know this season will be different, but we want to give you peace of mind knowing you’ll have the space you need at our resort. _



I'm fully expecting something similar from Alterra...


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## HowieT2 (Aug 28, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> UFO is gone. It’s been plowed from the gnome tree down.  The bottom has been rerouted to above the gate on Norm Robinson Rd. The bridge before the little climb to club Sugarbush has been removed.  They also dozed smooth parts of the snowshoe trail to create a climbing route back to the gnome tree.  Everything above shady lane hasn’t been touched. I don’t believe they are planning to smooth any more, at least not this year.



when did this happen?  I rode from shady lane down to club sugarbush July 4th week and didn’t notice anything.
fwiw-I’ve been biking rocky rooty old school technical trails for 30 years.  I love the new smooth flow trails.  So much fun.  There are plenty of old technical trails to kill myself on.


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## HowieT2 (Aug 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm fully expecting something similar from Alterra...


Agreed. 
upon returning to my office after the lockdown we were presented with a laundry list of new rules and restrictions, including but not limited to, being instructed to close the lid on the toilet before flushing so as not to spread the virus.  It took about a day to get used.  Totally normal now.  New normal but no big deal.  I suspect, and hope, the changes to our skiing routines will be similarly easy.   Except for eating lunch in a crowded cafeteria and drinking in a packed indoor bar for apres, which won’t happen at all.  
im thinking of getting some kind of pop up tent or something for tailgating.


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## Hawk (Aug 28, 2020)

We are planning apre at our condo outside on most Saturdays Howie.  You know where we are.  We are thinking fire pit and some other shinanigans.  Come by.


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## TSQURD (Aug 28, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> when did this happen?  I rode from shady lane down to club sugarbush July 4th week and didn’t notice anything.
> fwiw-I’ve been biking rocky rooty old school technical trails for 30 years.  I love the new smooth flow trails.  So much fun.  There are plenty of old technical trails to kill myself on.



 It was definitely started by the week of the 4th, they had from the middle down finished and were working on the climb around then.  After they finished the climb they went back and did from the gnome tree down to where they had started.  This one isn't like swell or evo II, this one is more like a BMX track going down hill.

I agree the new style of trail definitely can be fun, but it is certainly a different kind of riding.  IMO, its disappointing that old school tech is getting ripped out for the new stuff, and this isn't the first flow trail to replace a tech trail in the area. Dont like the direction this is heading, ripping up a groomer occasionally is a blast, but I wouldn't want to spend my full day doing that either. Be nice to see a real tech trail get built along with the flow stuff. Looking at the some of the strava segment names for these new trails, there are others that feel this way too


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## HowieT2 (Aug 28, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> It was definitely started by the week of the 4th, they had from the middle down finished and were working on the climb around then.  After they finished the climb they went back and did from the gnome tree down to where they had started.  This one isn't like swell or evo II, this one is more like a BMX track going down hill.
> 
> I agree the new style of trail definitely can be fun, but it is certainly a different kind of riding.  IMO, its disappointing that old school tech is getting ripped out for the new stuff, and this isn't the first flow trail to replace a tech trail in the area. Dont like the direction this is heading, ripping up a groomer occasionally is a blast, but I wouldn't want to spend my full day doing that either. Be nice to see a real tech trail get built along with the flow stuff. Looking at the some of the strava segment names for these new trails, there are others that feel this way too


I hear what your saying.  Ideally I like to mix my ride.  Like in camels hump, do swell hill to evo 2, then over to clinic to gs up enchanted forest, cyclone to evo and revolution.  But there’s plenty of technical and the new flowy trails bring a good balance.  And they open the sport to a much larger audience who would hate doing technical.


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## Hawk (Aug 31, 2020)

The mix that all the different MTB groups are bringing is good.  For the record the individuals that originally built the trails from village run down were not impressed that their original "vision" for those trails was reworked.  I can understand that but change always happens.  As long as new trails and maintenance is ongoing I am happy.  It really amazes me that Sugarbush has not made several cross country loops around the base area.  All of the terrain from Snow Creek to the bottom of Eden over to the bottom of castle rock over to the gate house area and over to above the old village could all be made into a fairly reasonable cross country loop with manageable climbs and rolly terrain.  They could tie it into the trails over at Village run and then off you go to Eurich Pond and Swell hill and Plum Line.  That would be a hell of a ride.


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## MorningWoods (Aug 31, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> when did this happen?  I rode from shady lane down to club sugarbush July 4th week and didn’t notice anything.
> fwiw-I’ve been biking rocky rooty old school technical trails for 30 years.  I love the new smooth flow trails.  So much fun.  There are plenty of old technical trails to kill myself on.



Yeah. I feel the same way. It’s a mile of trail.  So grand scheme of things doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.  Plenty of tech stuff to ride and assume tech trails will continue to grow at an even faster clip. Yes, I rode the trails that were there prior. I am not a COVID biker . 


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## Hawk (Sep 1, 2020)

What does that mean?  I am not a COVID biker?


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## HowieT2 (Sep 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What does that mean?  I am not a COVID biker?



I assumed it means he didnt pick up biking during the pandemic.

Red mtn added to Icon.  Great ski mountain.


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## MorningWoods (Sep 1, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I assumed it means he didnt pick up biking during the pandemic.
> 
> Red mtn added to Icon.  Great ski mountain.



Correct. There are a lot of new bikers out there. Probably get a great deal on a bike in about a years time.


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## Hawk (Sep 2, 2020)

LOL.  I didn't know if you were saying that you have not ridden up there because of covid.  "not a covid rider"

You are 100% correct. The last ride I did in the MVR was a few weeks ago and we ran into at least a few people that were lost looking for directions on Brand new bikes.


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## ducky (Sep 4, 2020)

Mad River Riders will have a table set up at Blueberry Lake tomorrow. Come by and say hi and enjoy the ride.


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2020)

A little insight into the plans for the shuttle buses in the MRV this winter:

https://www.valleyreporter.com/inde...this-winter-select-board-comments-on-policing


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## ducky (Sep 11, 2020)

Words from Win, John, Rusty, and Matt (MRG) at the MRV Chamber meeting. No real insight to this season's rules and regs as those are coming in an announcement after Sept 14th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIE1GKezbsE&feature=youtu.be


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2020)

ducky said:


> Words from Win, John, Rusty, and Matt (MRG) at the MRV Chamber meeting. No real insight to this season's rules and regs as those are coming in an announcement after Sept 14th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIE1GKezbsE&feature=youtu.be



Thanks ducky. Certainly a few interesting things at least...

Alterra's announcement comes out Sept 14th with more specific announcements sometime after that from individual resorts.
Per Matt a lot of people still either have no idea VT has a map detailing the restrictions or they have no idea how to read it.
No Mad Cards this year at MRG (will be interesting to see if SB also eliminates or limits the Quad pack this year)


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## Hawk (Sep 14, 2020)

This is what they sent out today.  
" We are prioritizing access for season pass holders and will tightly regulate the number of daily lift tickets that will be available by advance purchase only. To this end, walk-up window sales will be eliminated, and the sale of most undated lift ticket products will be discontinued until further notice. Please visit our resort website for more information regarding our policies"

I have my pass.  Hope you bought yours.


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## cdskier (Sep 14, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This is what they sent out today.
> " We are prioritizing access for season pass holders and will tightly regulate the number of daily lift tickets that will be available by advance purchase only. To this end, walk-up window sales will be eliminated, and the sale of most undated lift ticket products will be discontinued until further notice. Please visit our resort website for more information regarding our policies"
> 
> I have my pass.  Hope you bought yours.



Just finished reading that same e-mail. I have my pass. I suspect you'll see no Quad packs this year based on what was said in that e-mail.


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## mikec142 (Sep 14, 2020)

I actually just got off the phone with Sugarbush.  I have my Ikon Pass, but my two teenagers have nothing, and I was planning to rely on quad packs.  They said they were a hard yes on quad packs up thru July, but now its more of a qualified maybe and they are stuck waiting to tailor their offerings and policies around whatever the state mandates.  Quad packs unrestricted but anonymous nature make it hard to predict usage whereas Ikon or season passes have years of data to draw conclusions from.

I may have to buy my kids young adult passes.  Would not be my first choice as it's always a huge question as to the amount they will ski.  Sometimes its 10-15 days, sometimes its 3 days.


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## Hawk (Sep 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Just finished reading that same e-mail. I have my pass. I suspect you'll see no Quad packs this year based on what was said in that e-mail.



I would also think they do away with the cabin cat powder mornings and the cat dinners at Alynns this year also.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2020)

I think that's a pretty safe bet.


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## Hawk (Sep 14, 2020)

I was talking to Alpine options today.  They are saying that the manufacturers are cutting down on what they produce and ship for winter goods.  So If you plan to buy something for this winter, you better do it now before the small stock they get is gone.


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## dustyroads (Sep 14, 2020)

I have my Alterra pass and I'm not worried about skiing at the Bush or other Alterra owned mountains. I'm wondering if this will affect us at the Ikon mountains where we have limited days?


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## Hawk (Sep 15, 2020)

That is the million dollar question.


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## cdskier (Sep 15, 2020)

Ikon has a nice page on their website that shows the status of all Alterra and partner resorts and whether you need reservations, etc.

https://www.ikonpass.com/en/reservations


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## Hawk (Sep 15, 2020)

So how are they going to limit the sales of advanced purchased lift tickets based on the amount of season pass holders showing up if pass holders don't at least send in some sense of how much they will show up.  If it was me I would send out a pass holders survey and see what the general thinking is of the pass holder.


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## tumbler (Sep 15, 2020)

Seems like the plan is to try to drive revenue by increasing pass sales by announcing no day tickets.  My guess for operating is limited lifts.  No VH (only when Bravo on hold), no slide brook, no summit (hike to FIS) and maybe no Inverness (GMVS can use their pomas).  I'm not banking on the lodge for eating or drinking.. Maybe some warmth.  Finding employees will be tough.


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## Hawk (Sep 15, 2020)

But that does not make sense when you are trying to keep lines down so that spacing can occur.  Wouldn't you want more lifts operating?


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## cdskier (Sep 15, 2020)

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe relying a lot on historical passholder data? And then as the season goes on they could also judge season pass usage and make adjustments if they see it as necessary.


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## cdskier (Sep 15, 2020)

Hawk said:


> But that does not make sense when you are trying to keep lines down so that spacing can occur.  Wouldn't you want more lifts operating?



I agree. Running less lifts doesn't make any sense.


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## tumbler (Sep 15, 2020)

I agree with your points, I just don't think they will have the bodies to run them all.


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## Hawk (Sep 15, 2020)

That may very well be the case.  We are also dealing with a new mountain manager in John Hammond.  Unlike Win who owned the mountain and also ran the daily operations, John will not have much leverage when Altera comes calling.  It will be interesting to see how they do things.


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## mikec142 (Sep 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I was wondering the same thing. Maybe relying a lot on historical passholder data? And then as the season goes on they could also judge season pass usage and make adjustments if they see it as necessary.



When I spoke to someone at SB yesterday he said they have tons of historical passholder data to use in order to make assumptions.  Harder to predict day pass usage and quad pack usage.


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## Hawk (Sep 15, 2020)

They may have data from a normal year but I think this year might be different.  What do you think the impact will be from people not willing to come up or follow the letter of the law and think that the social distancing will not be sufficient and stay home?  I just think the numbers will be a little lower and also there might be a bunch of people that choose to work remotely and live up at the mountain, ski mid week and skip the weekends.  Lots of uncertainty in my opinion.  Probably a wait and see.


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## cdskier (Sep 15, 2020)

Historical data gives you a starting point. You can then estimate the impact of the other points you mentioned. And if you estimate incorrectly, then you adjust as time goes on. Honestly if they don't end up offering the Quad pack, then I think that right there cuts out a lot of people to help control your numbers.

They're going to be far more focused on making sure too many people don't show up rather than on too few people showing up. The points you're raising about reasons numbers might be lower are not exactly the initial issue they're going to be addressing. You can always make more tickets available or lower prices or offer some sort of mid-season deal if you see your numbers are well below expectations.

Could end up being an interesting year if there are less people on the mountain. Not necessarily great from a financial perspective for the mountain, but certainly could make things more enjoyable from a skiing perspective.


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## tumbler (Sep 15, 2020)

Hawk said:


> That may very well be the case.  We are also dealing with a new mountain manager in John Hammond.  Unlike Win who owned the mountain and also ran the daily operations, John will not have much leverage when Altera comes calling.  It will be interesting to see how they do things.



Yup, very good point


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## 1dog (Sep 15, 2020)

Will be interesting to see, but memory lane for thos eof us who have been in valley for 30+ years. . . .  we used to quietly brag about having terrain for ourselves and fresh tracks for longer than most other major resorts.

However, I can't believe they  won't want to maximize traffic since their larger profit centers - F&B - is even more limited.

My businesses are 50-60% of normal volume and I can barely hang on - with almost no debt - so, how they do it, well, its gonna be something to watch.


I'd think selling Quads would still be a best as they can get some cash flow and predictable management, yet place limits on when they can be used. ( The 'limits' of course, would be the challenge)

As others have mentioned, Bush has ( much?) higher % of season pass holders than other resorts. So it would be hard to gauge Quad pack traffic with unlimited season pass traffic. It is paramount that SP holders have unlimited access. 

No ticket at windows is a start.


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## bill-now (Sep 15, 2020)

I think the key to success this season would be to encourage weekday and discourage weekend visits. On a typical weekday SB is, historically,  close to the current social distancing guidelines. One approach would be to sell Quad packs that are only valid Monday thru Friday. Also a decrease in weekday ticket prices and an increase in weekend prices would also help.
I'm thinking that surge pricing, such as practiced by Uber, may be an interesting approach to this problem.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2020)

how do you do surge pricing with a season pass?


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## bill-now (Sep 15, 2020)

I was only thinking about non season pass sales. Although certain passes, such as the boomer pass, are already only valid on weekdays.


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## Edd (Sep 16, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I was talking to Alpine options today.  They are saying that the manufacturers are cutting down on what they produce and ship for winter goods.  So If you plan to buy something for this winter, you better do it now before the small stock they get is gone.



Seems strange to cut production since outdoor goods have been selling out. I wonder if they’ve determined that restricted access to ski areas will cut demand?


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 16, 2020)

Seems to me they could require quad pack holders to just try to reserve a date(s) for usage by a minimum waiting period of a week or something of that sort.


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## Hawk (Sep 16, 2020)

Edd said:


> Seems strange to cut production since outdoor goods have been selling out. I wonder if they’ve determined that restricted access to ski areas will cut demand?



That very well may be the case.  I can't speak to why but I know that it is happening.


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## noworriesvt (Sep 16, 2020)

Hawk said:


> That very well may be the case.  I can't speak to why but I know that it is happening.



Supply chain issues in Asia from Jan-March. Most factories begin production for then and were closed for a period of time. 


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2020)

bill-now said:


> On a typical weekday SB is, historically,  close to the current social distancing guidelines.



What makes you say that? Any time I've been there midweek (non-holiday), most lifts were virtually ski on unless it was a powder day.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 16, 2020)

I think that's what he is saying.
I saw somewhere that Alterra isn't going to require reservations for passholders.  But does that include parking?  I think Killington is going to have reservations for parking.


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## JimG. (Sep 16, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I think that's what he is saying.
> I saw somewhere that Alterra isn't going to require reservations for passholders.  But does that include parking?  I think Killington is going to have reservations for parking.



Since K has notified everyone who skis there this season to boot up at the car they are limiting parking to create physical distancing in parking lots. So you have to call in advance to let them know you are coming.

Like everything else this will be an issue on weekends, not weekdays.


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## skiur (Sep 16, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Since K has notified everyone who skis there this season to boot up at the car they are limiting parking to create physical distancing in parking lots. So you have to call in advance to let them know you are coming.
> 
> Like everything else this will be an issue on weekends, not weekdays.



What if you get dropped off at the mountain?  What if you take the bus (if there is a bus this year)  what about people that live in the on trail condos?  Do all those people not have to worry?  K needs to make these questions clear.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2020)

If you get dropped off, you can boot up at the car that dropped you off. If you came long distance by bus, your gear would be on it? The local bus, you would be booting up before you load the bus, at your home/condo. And on trail condos, really? why would you take anything from there?


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## urungus (Sep 16, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> If you get dropped off, you can boot up at the car that dropped you off. If you came long distance by bus, your gear would be on it? The local bus, you would be booting up before you load the bus, at your home/condo. And on trail condos, really? why would you take anything from there?



The question is not where you would boot up, but how to make Killington aware of your intention to ski, so they can manage capacity ..


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I think that's what he is saying.
> I saw somewhere that Alterra isn't going to require reservations for passholders.  But does that include parking?  I think Killington is going to have reservations for parking.


At Alterra owned properties, that is correct on Passholders not needing reservations.  At resorts that are affiliated on Ikon and not Alterra owned, reservations may be required including parking (seems all Powdr resorts will require parking reservations, just saw Bachelor joined that party) or reservations to ski (all the western Boyne's will require this along with Taos.  Loon and Windham in the East will too) for Ikon passholders.  Bachelor said something like they may increase the number of blackout days for Ikon Base Pass guests.  Without a reservation to ski, not sure how they could do that as it would change the actual terms of the pass.

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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2020)

urungus said:


> The question is not where you would boot up, but how to make Killington aware of your intention to ski, so they can manage capacity ..



Ah, perhaps any riding the buses and trail-side would have already had to state parking intentions for their condo/hotel locations? Actual drop offs, may be such a minuscule number they just factor in? I'd bet they've got a clue on their incoming reservations.


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Ah, perhaps any riding the buses and trail-side would have already had to state parking intentions for their condo/hotel locations? Actual drop offs, may be such a minuscule number they just factor in? I'd bet they've got a clue on their incoming reservations.


Doubtful, but then again Killington nor Powdr has explained exactly how the Parking Reservations system(s) will work.  (S) because all Powdr resorts appear to be adopting parking reservations for this season, not just K.

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## JimG. (Sep 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> What if you get dropped off at the mountain?  What if you take the bus (if there is a bus this year)  what about people that live in the on trail condos?  Do all those people not have to worry?  K needs to make these questions clear.



Not disagreeing with you. 

But things have been clear as mud so far.


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## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2020)

Went to visit the Sugarbush thread and got detoured to Killington?


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## skiur (Sep 16, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Went to visit the Sugarbush thread and got detoured to Killington?



Well K is on the way to sugarbush!


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> Well K is on the way to sugarbush!



Depends on where you're coming from and what roads you take!


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

Well it started as a comparison of how other Ikon resorts are handling things and Killington hijacked the thread.  I really do not care what the challenges are down at Killington.  They are totally different from Sugarbush with far more day trippers then we have.  I also do not have any concerns about parking at Sugarbush as I have a place to park.  I do want to know if there will be some kind of process that I need to do to actually go skiing this winter.  As of now there is not but I think it is coming.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Well it started as a comparison of how other Ikon resorts are handling things and Killington hijacked the thread.  I really do not care what the challenges are down at Killington.  They are totally different from Sugarbush with far more day trippers then we have.  I also do not have any concerns about parking at Sugarbush as I have a place to park.  I do want to know if there will be some kind of process that I need to do to actually go skiing this winter.  As of now there is not but I think it is coming.



Any thoughts on what the uphill travel policy will be?


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

I was told that it will be the same as most years with approved routes and times.  If the mountain shuts down I am not sure what will happen.  Last year there was a period of about 2 or 2 weeks after the close that skinning was just fantastic.  But then people inevitably  screwed it up by not social distancing, having parties in the parking lot and gathering on the hill.  Maybe we can do it better this time.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I was told that it will be the same as most years with approved routes and times.  If the mountain shuts down I am not sure what will happen.  Last year there was a period of about 2 or 2 weeks after the close that skinning was just fantastic.  But then people inevitably  screwed it up by not social distancing, having parties in the parking lot and gathering on the hill.  Maybe we can do it better this time.



i'm getting a new touring setup just in case.


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## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

If the current VT COVID19 travel restrictions stay the same it seems like many out of state skiers "technically" cannot come to VT 2 ski for a few days & return home and repeat again the following week.  It is going to push people to make a tough decision do what is right for safety of others or what they feel is right for them and not obey the travel restrictions.  At this point it seems the mountains are leaving this up to the individual to follow the states policy or not.  It will be interesting to see if the Governor will pass the responsibility & enforcement onto the businesses that draw tourist.
To me this is what us out of state skiers should be most concerned with.
If the resorts turn into Covid 19 smuggle fest, it will game over for everyone.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

I hear that the vaccine is coming in November.  If I get the vaccine am I good to go?  This is going to be way more complicated then everyone thinks.


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## ducky (Sep 17, 2020)

Blurski said:


> If the current VT COVID19 travel restrictions stay the same it seems like many out of state skiers "technically" cannot come to VT 2 ski for a few days & return home and repeat again the following week.  It is going to push people to make a tough decision do what is right for safety of others or what they feel is right for them and not obey the travel restrictions.  At this point it seems the mountains are leaving this up to the individual to follow the states policy or not.  It will be interesting to see if the Governor will pass the responsibility & enforcement onto the businesses that draw tourist.
> To me this is what us out of state skiers should be most concerned with.
> If the resorts turn into Covid 19 smuggle fest, it will game over for everyone.



This is the big question. Surely Sugarbush will follow the state guidelines. We have two businesses in the valley and have turned away visitors this summer for having not quarantined; we face fines if not. The guidelines may change between now and winter but I bet not too much and suspect John Hammond will see they comply. Dr Fauci was on the bi-weekly call with Gov Phil Scott and DoH Director Dr Levine on Tuesday and commended Vermont for being a leader. So many weekend visitors come from red or yellow counties including all of the NY and Boston metro areas and Fairfield Cty, CT... https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

How is John Hamnond and Sugarbush going to be able to confirm that people are following the guidelines and restrict people that are not?  In my condo complex there are families from MA that have been living up there and will remain there for the winter working remotely.  They comply but how would you know?
Also, hypothetically, if I chose to go up every weekend and I am isolated at my house in MA, ski from my condo so I am not interacting at the base.  Ski with a mask on with my significant other and bring all my own food, How am I not complaint?  Common sense would dictate that I am.  So very complicated.


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## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

I guess it works if you and whoever you live with never leave your house in MA for any reason. Seems like a tall order not interact with anyone for 5 months, but skiing is a very powerful drug and can make people do really crazing things! 

You better start to stock pile the gasoline now in both places.

Mathematically imposable to meet the 7 day quarantining + test or 14 day quarantining required from out of state when you come & go every week.

The big man say vaccine is right around the corner, problem fix, it is that easy.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

There are acceptable practices for going to get gas and getting food.  Correct Masks, Sanitizer immediately after touching anything, social distance.  If you are thorough and diligent you have basically no risk.  The guide lines are there as a catch all for people that do not follow any of these practices.  I am just throwing it out there.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

Hmm  Blurski = John Hammond ???

2 posts.   That would make sense.


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## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

I get it, but there is no way to know if the person in front of you in line coughing & sneezing follows the recommended safe practices, you cant fix stupid.
Once we invent the stupid filter many problems will be solved.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

Yup the stupid filter is a much needed amenity nowadays.  I understand.  Just playing the devils advocate.


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## cdskier (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> There are acceptable practices for going to get gas and getting food.  Correct Masks, Sanitizer immediately after touching anything, social distance.  If you are thorough and diligent you have basically no risk.  The guide lines are there as a catch all for people that do not follow any of these practices.  I am just throwing it out there.



I agree. I'd also say that if anyone thinks the ski areas (and businesses in the surrounding communities) could legitimately survive in the winter with "locals only", they're very much mistaken. We know a lot more now than we did when this first started about what works best to reduce any risks. VT just seems extremely slow to react to this information and best practices (just look how long it took them until they finally mandated masks statewide).


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## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I agree. I'd also say that if anyone thinks the ski areas (and businesses in the surrounding communities) could legitimately survive in the winter with "locals only", they're very much mistaken. We know a lot more now than we did when this first started about what works best to reduce any risks. VT just seems extremely slow to react to this information and best practices (just look how long it took them until they finally mandated masks statewide).



What I dont understand is the algorithm vt is using to determine the active cases per million.  The threshold for quarantine is 400/million.  my county in NY, westchester, has been consistently for months in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period and yet VT has the active cases above 800/million.  The population of westchester is just shy of 1m.  I dont get it.


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## ducky (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> How is John Hamnond and Sugarbush going to be able to confirm that people are following the guidelines and restrict people that are not?  In my condo complex there are families from MA that have been living up there and will remain there for the winter working remotely.  They comply but how would you know?
> Also, hypothetically, if I chose to go up every weekend and I am isolated at my house in MA, ski from my condo so I am not interacting at the base.  Ski with a mask on with my significant other and bring all my own food, How am I not complaint?  Common sense would dictate that I am.  So very complicated.



Not sure quarantining at home in your state's red or yellow county qualifies as being compliant. Perhaps in theory you can think so, but not legally.

I think condo associations (via airbnb) are not able to or care to police who rents or stays whereas Sugarbush, being licensed by the state, is held to a much higher standard and has an obligation to the health of their guests, employees, indeed the whole local population. Ethically, does a major local employer wants to take that risk for profit? Not a resort in the country wants to be THE place where the inevitable outbreak happens. Our local middle school, CBMS, had two cases last week and is now closed. It has folks on edge around here.


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## ducky (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> What I dont understand is the algorithm vt is using to determine the active cases per million.  The threshold for quarantine is 400/million.  my county in NY, westchester, has been consistently for months in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period and yet VT has the active cases above 800/million.  The population of westchester is just shy of 1m.  I dont get it.



If you write or call the VT ACCD or DoH you will get an answer to their sources quite quickly. If you have the VPR app on your phone, you can listen to the weekly briefings on Tuesday and Friday at 11:00. One problem is the 400/100k is updated every Friday which means it is often too late for weekend travel.

Howie, just found the algorithm:  https://dfr.vermont.gov/sites/finreg/files/doc_library/dfr-travel-map-methodology-071620.pdf


----------



## mister moose (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I hear that the vaccine is coming in November. If I get the vaccine am I good to go? This is going to be way more complicated then everyone thinks.





Blurski said:


> The big man say vaccine is right around the corner, problem fix, it is that easy.


There's some talking past each other out there.  The White House says the vaccine will be available this fall.  I interpret that to mean the first distributed doses that will go to medical workers, military.  Initial production will be less at first than after it's ramped up.  So availability to the general public will be quite a bit later, which is what the other story in the news is.  Neither one acknowledges the other.  Read and assimilate both.  And of course it might not be ready this fall either.



HowieT2 said:


> What I dont understand is the algorithm vt is using to determine the active cases per million. The threshold for quarantine is 400/million. my county in NY, westchester, has been consistently for months in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period and yet VT has the active cases above 800/million. The population of westchester is just shy of 1m. I dont get it.


There was an interesting discussion on this on Kzone.  Briefly, VT uses a 30 day look back algorithm to calculate the theoretical number of cases in each county today, using John Hopkins data.  It is not based on today's testing.  Other states, like mine, get their numbers from recent testing.  The numbers are considerably different.  Population size doesn't figure in, it's the rate.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2020)

ducky said:


> Not sure quarantining at home in your state's red or yellow county qualifies as being compliant. Perhaps in theory you can think so, but not legally.



It absolutely does count. This is straight from VT's ACCD website:


> Residents of other states who live in a quarantine county or are from any other state outside of the Northeast (including New England; New York; Pennsylvania; Ohio; New Jersey; Delaware; Maryland; Washington, D.C.; Virginia; and West Virginia), must follow quarantine guidelines:
> 
> *Travelers arriving to Vermont in a personal vehicle, may complete either a 14-day quarantine or a 7-day quarantine followed by a negative test in their home state and enter Vermont without further quarantine restrictions*.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

ducky said:


> If you write or call the VT ACCD or DoH you will get an answer to their sources quite quickly. If you have the VPR app on your phone, you can listen to the weekly briefings on Tuesday and Friday at 11:00. One problem is the 400/100k is updated every Friday which means it is often too late for weekend travel.
> 
> Howie, just found the algorithm:  https://dfr.vermont.gov/sites/finreg/files/doc_library/dfr-travel-map-methodology-071620.pdf



my head just exploded reading that.  just seems to me the number should be substantially lower based on the data.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It absolutely does count. This is straight from VT's ACCD website:



That's correct.  Absolutely legal and within the rules to quarantine at home.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 17, 2020)

We visited up there a while back to clean out our condo for a renovation that is happening.  I have to say just driving around , there are not a lot of people wearing masks and social distancing.  If there is an out break it will be because the locals refuse to follow the guidelines themselves.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> There's some talking past each other out there.  The White House says the vaccine will be available this fall.  I interpret that to mean the first distributed doses that will go to medical workers, military.  Initial production will be less at first than after it's ramped up.  So availability to the general public will be quite a bit later, which is what the other story in the news is.  Neither one acknowledges the other.  Read and assimilate both.  And of course it might not be ready this fall either.
> 
> 
> There was an interesting discussion on this on Kzone.  Briefly, VT uses a 30 day look back algorithm to calculate the theoretical number of cases in each county today, using John Hopkins data.  It is not based on today's testing.  Other states, like mine, get their numbers from recent testing.  The numbers are considerably different.  Population size doesn't figure in, it's the rate.



I get the look back but like I said, I've been monitoring the data and for months, the number of cases have been in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period.  That's in the 200's per million over 7 days.  how then does the algorithm get to 800+ per million active cases.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> There's some talking past each other out there.  The White House says the vaccine will be available this fall.  I interpret that to mean the first distributed doses that will go to medical workers, military.  Initial production will be less at first than after it's ramped up.  So availability to the general public will be quite a bit later, which is what the other story in the news is.  Neither one acknowledges the other.  Read and assimilate both.  And of course it might not be ready this fall either.
> 
> 
> There was an interesting discussion on this on Kzone.  Briefly, VT uses a 30 day look back algorithm to calculate the theoretical number of cases in each county today, using John Hopkins data.  It is not based on today's testing.  Other states, like mine, get their numbers from recent testing.  The numbers are considerably different.  Population size doesn't figure in, it's the rate.




you guys dont actually believe there's going to be a vaccine distributed and administered widely enough to make any difference before next spring???  I mean, really, you are being facetious, no?


----------



## ducky (Sep 17, 2020)

Hawk said:


> We visited up there a while back to clean out our condo for a renovation that is happening.  I have to say just driving around , there are not a lot of people wearing masks and social distancing.  If there is an out break it will be because the locals refuse to follow the guidelines themselves.



It's not the locals who are not wearing masks.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I get the look back but like I said, I've been monitoring the data and for months, the number of cases have been in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period. That's in the 200's per million over 7 days. how then does the algorithm get to 800+ per million active cases.


Just a guess, but if your county for all 30 days has been less than VT's current estimate of your county's rate, then that would imply that VT's transmission rate in the model is faulty.  Or another possibility is your county is talented relative to the average county at reducing transmission rates.  VT is much more model based, others are more current testing based.



HowieT2 said:


> you guys dont actually believe there's going to be a vaccine distributed and administered widely enough to make any difference before next spring???  I mean, really, you are being facetious, no?


To quote Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the papers.  Who knows what will actually happen when.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I get the look back but like I said, I've been monitoring the data and for months, the number of cases have been in the 20's per 100k for 7 day period.  That's in the 200's per million over 7 days.  how then does the algorithm get to 800+ per million active cases.



Vermont's algorithm to estimate the number of active cases is rather bizarre and definitely seems to be overestimating the number of actual cases by a decent amount. If I'm reading it correctly, they are using historical data of reported infections to basically attempt to predict how many other people they may have infected to figure out how many cases there currently should be? That's just strange...

Also, the whole thing has very little relevance to an individual's actual risk anyway. If person A living in a red county rarely leaves their house and practices proper social distancing, that person has a "low risk". Meanwhile person B could be living in a green county and leave their house non-stop and never social distance and never wear a mask. I trust person A's risk level more than I trust person B's. Bottom line is it should be more about common sense instead of some bizarre overly conservative algorithm. If people follow social distancing rules and are minimizing their risk at home, then they should be welcomed (as long as they agree to continue to follow the guidelines).


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Just a guess, but if your county for all 30 days has been less than VT's current estimate of your county's rate, then that would imply that VT's transmission rate in the model is faulty.  Or another possibility is your county is talented relative to the average county at reducing transmission rates.  VT is much more model based, others are more current testing based.
> 
> 
> To quote Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the papers.  Who knows what will actually happen when.



I don't know what papers you're reading, but there isn't anyone saying there will be a vaccine widely distributed to the population before next spring at the earliest.  Even the idiot who said this was all going to go away isnt saying that.


----------



## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> you guys dont actually believe there's going to be a vaccine distributed and administered widely enough to make any difference before next spring???  I mean, really, you are being facetious, no?



Not Me, just being facetious.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Vermont's algorithm to estimate the number of active cases is rather bizarre and definitely seems to be overestimating the number of actual cases by a decent amount. If I'm reading it correctly, they are using historical data of reported infections to basically attempt to predict how many other people they may have infected to figure out how many cases there currently should be? That's just strange...
> 
> Also, the whole thing has very little relevance to an individual's actual risk anyway. If person A living in a red county rarely leaves their house and practices proper social distancing, that person has a "low risk". Meanwhile person B could be living in a green county and leave their house non-stop and never social distance and never wear a mask. I trust person A's risk level more than I trust person B's. Bottom line is it should be more about common sense instead of some bizarre overly conservative algorithm. If people follow social distancing rules and are minimizing their risk at home, then they should be welcomed (as long as they agree to continue to follow the guidelines).




That's what I'm talking about.  I get that the state wants people from areas where there is a high level of infection, to quarantine.  And there are areas where that is the case.  But not in NY/New England since june really.


----------



## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

The resorts can survive for one season at a big loss, some local businesses not so.  It will take deep pockets to make it, but if this goes off the rails there will be no revenue coming in, ever try to run a business with zero cash flow!  Survive so you can and fight for next year.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't know what papers you're reading, but there isn't anyone saying there will be a vaccine widely distributed to the population before next spring at the earliest.  Even the idiot who said this was all going to go away isnt saying that.


I'd say different papers than you.  It's been out for a while.  Here's an updated article, first google hit.

Biotech firm Moderna expects to know by November whether its coronavirus vaccine is effective at warding off the deadly disease, CEO Stephane Bancel said Thursday.

Massachusetts-based Moderna says it has enrolled 25,296 people in the late-stage clinical trial of its COVID-19 vaccine that kicked off in July, one of three such studies currently underway in the US.

The company will most likely have results from the trial indicating whether the shot works in November, Bancel said. He added that it’s possible but “unlikely” that the results could arrive in October, when fellow drugmaker Pfizer expects to know whether its own vaccine works.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/17/moderna-expects-covid-19-vaccine-trial-results-by-november-ceo/


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> you guys dont actually believe there's going to be a vaccine distributed and administered widely enough to make any difference before next spring???  I mean, really, you are being facetious, no?



I agree. I see little chance of it happening for a variety of reasons.

A) High risk and essential workers will be prioritized.
B) Needing two doses 30 days apart is a distinct possibility (which further makes this a logistical nightmare as you just effectively doubled the number of vaccinations that need to happen AND need to carefully plan/time them)
C) Some people (perhaps even many people) will be reluctant to get the vaccine when it first comes out
D) Even with ramping up production before the vaccines are approved it will still take months to get the amount of vaccines produced that you truly need
E) Combine point B with the fact that it takes another couple weeks for your body's immune response to get you to actually be immune and you now have at least a 6 week window after you even get the first dose before you're actually "safe". So even if you could somehow get the vaccine in late Q4, you still wouldn't be immune until early Q1. And there's simply no way every skier could get to the front of the line.


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## cdskier (Sep 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> I'd say different papers than you.  It's been out for a while.  Here's an updated article, first google hit.
> 
> Biotech firm Moderna expects to know by November whether its coronavirus vaccine is effective at warding off the deadly disease, CEO Stephane Bancel said Thursday.
> 
> ...



All that says is that they expect to have the results of their latest clinical trials by November. It doesn't say anything about the vaccine actually being approved and available by November. There's a big difference between "ready" and "available".


----------



## Blurski (Sep 17, 2020)

But if you are in VT to ski on Saturday & Sunday and go back home, you are back in VT in 5 days. How do squeeze 14 days into 5.  Or are you thinking, 1 pre 14 day quarantine sets you up for the entire season and basically never leave your house. Not thinking that is what they had in mind.


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## mister moose (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> All that says is that they expect to have the results of their latest clinical trials by November. It doesn't say anything about the vaccine actually being approved and available by November. There's a big difference between "ready" and "available".


Yes, and available to who is also a factor.  That post was in furtherance of a previous post that illustrated how folks are talking past each other.  Sorta like now.




mister moose said:


> There's some talking past each other out there. The White House says the vaccine will be *available this fall. I interpret that to mean the first distributed doses that will go to medical workers, military. Initial production will be less at first than after it's ramped up. So availability to the general public will be quite a bit later, which is what the other story in the news is. Neither one acknowledges the other. Read and assimilate both. And of course it might not be ready this fall either.



*Available, in the pipeline, not approved yet for public distribution.  Not as in at your local CVS for free.


----------



## skiur (Sep 17, 2020)

ducky said:


> It's not the locals who are not wearing masks.



I find that very hard to believe.  In reality, it is both locals and out of towner's walking around with and without masks.


----------



## ducky (Sep 17, 2020)

skiur said:


> I find that very hard to believe.  In reality, it is both locals and out of towner's walking around with and without masks.



Fair enough and definitely politics are involved. It is now pretty rare to see someone in a public area without a mask. It is prohibited in all businesses by state mandate. I live and work in the valley and that's what I have seen mostly the last 2-3 months. 

We have seen a fair number of visitors at our business, perhaps 75% of usual, all prescreened by text for appointment. A common line I hear is, "we've been living here since March 14th and never went home", or "we've just moved here from...(SF, NY, Boston)". Real estate is booming with some homes sold sight-unseen.


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## p_levert (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I agree. I'd also say that if anyone thinks the ski areas (and businesses in the surrounding communities) could legitimately survive in the winter with "locals only", they're very much mistaken. We know a lot more now than we did when this first started about what works best to reduce any risks. VT just seems extremely slow to react to this information and best practices (just look how long it took them until they finally mandated masks statewide).



I certainly don't endorse VT's incredibly conservative approach to Covid.  OTOH, should the nightmare come true, where only Vermonters get to ski, some ski areas will do reasonably well.  If you're close to Burlington and market to locals, things would not be so bad.  So Bolton and Smuggs would be in the best shape.  MRG has a lot of local skiers and a lot of support from their members.  Stowe might do alright.  OTOH, it would be a real disaster for the southern VT resorts.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 17, 2020)

mister moose said:


> I'd say different papers than you.  It's been out for a while.  Here's an updated article, first google hit.
> 
> Biotech firm Moderna expects to know by November whether its coronavirus vaccine is effective at warding off the deadly disease, CEO Stephane Bancel said Thursday.
> 
> ...



This is regarding late stage trials for one of three companies performing them in the US. It has nothing to do with wide scale availability of an approved vaccine. IF the late trials are successful (and let's hope they are), healthcare workers and other high risk demographics are going to get the limited initial doses (as they well should). The CDC said as much today as part of their rollout plan. You're not going to be able to go to CVS or your PCP anytime before spring.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 17, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> This is regarding late stage trials for one of three companies performing them in the US. It has nothing to do with wide scale availability of an approved vaccine. IF the late trials are successful (and let's hope they are), healthcare workers and other high risk demographics are going to get the limited initial doses (as they well should). The CDC said as much today as part of their rollout plan. You're not going to be able to go to CVS or your PCP anytime before spring.





mister moose said:


> There's some talking past each other out there.





mister moose said:


> Yes, and available to who is also a factor. That post was in furtherance of a previous post that illustrated how folks are talking past each other. Sorta like now.
> 
> *Available, in the pipeline, not approved yet for public distribution. Not as in at your local CVS for free.



Thanks for helping to further illustrate my point.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> All that says is that they expect to have the results of their latest clinical trials by November. It doesn't say anything about the vaccine actually being approved and available by November. There's a big difference between "ready" and "available".


This.  Not only won’t they know the efficacy results before November at the earliest for the leading candidates, they still have to verify safety before any vaccine can even begin to be distributed.  And this isn’t a movie.  In the real world,  distribution and inoculation of 200 million people Or so takes some time.


----------



## machski (Sep 18, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> This.  Not only won’t they know the efficacy results before November at the earliest for the leading candidates, they still have to verify safety before any vaccine can even begin to be distributed.  And this isn’t a movie.  In the real world,  distribution and inoculation of 200 million people Or so takes some time.


Not really.  You all have missed the fact that EVERY pharma company in trials with a Vaccine have already started and ramped up production NOW.  Is this a corporate risk as their Vaccine hasn't finished trials and been approved?  You bet!  But they all agree that this particular event mandated they all take on that risk so that if/when a Vaccine proves successful there would be very little lapse time between the approval and broad scale distribution.  The amount of available doses are beyond the amount just for essential medical workers.  And also recall, the US government has already contract purchased 100's of millions of doses for the US.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Sep 18, 2020)

machski said:


> Not really.  You all have missed the fact that EVERY pharma company in trials with a Vaccine have already started and ramped up production NOW.  Is this a corporate risk as their Vaccine hasn't finished trials and been approved?  You bet!  But they all agree that this particular event mandated they all take on that risk so that if/when a Vaccine proves successful there would be very little lapse time between the approval and broad scale distribution.  The amount of available doses are beyond the amount just for essential medical workers.  And also recall, the US government has already contract purchased 100's of millions of doses for the US.



No. I certainly haven't missed the fact that they already ramped up production. But you don't create millions of doses of a vaccine overnight. To put it in perspective, it takes one of the leading flu vaccine producers about 6 months to make 200 million doses. Every vaccine is different and may have different timelines, but it will still take many months to get the amount of vaccines produced for COVID that would be needed (especially if you need 2 doses which doubles the number of vaccines that need to be produced).

The flu vaccine is the largest produced vaccine out there on a yearly basis. And yet with the flu vaccine you have a lot of people that don't get it (thus reducing the number of vaccines that need to be produced) as well as you get to focus on production for only one hemisphere at a time. With covid it is a global issue where everyone wants/needs the vaccine at the same time. Just because the US government contracted for 100s of millions of doses doesn't mean they get them all on day 1. Many other countries have done the same thing. Vaccine production will be shared with the world. The US isn't going to simply get ours before everyone else.


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## jdr14 (Sep 18, 2020)

Winter operations plan is up on the website now:
https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/mountain-operations-protocol/

Of note:
Different groups of guests will not be forced to sit together on lift
No group lessons or seasonal programs


----------



## machski (Sep 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> No. I certainly haven't missed the fact that they already ramped up production. But you don't create millions of doses of a vaccine overnight. To put it in perspective, it takes one of the leading flu vaccine producers about 6 months to make 200 million doses. Every vaccine is different and may have different timelines, but it will still take many months to get the amount of vaccines produced for COVID that would be needed (especially if you need 2 doses which doubles the number of vaccines that need to be produced).
> 
> The flu vaccine is the largest produced vaccine out there on a yearly basis. And yet with the flu vaccine you have a lot of people that don't get it (thus reducing the number of vaccines that need to be produced) as well as you get to focus on production for only one hemisphere at a time. With covid it is a global issue where everyone wants/needs the vaccine at the same time. Just because the US government contracted for 100s of millions of doses doesn't mean they get them all on day 1. Many other countries have done the same thing. Vaccine production will be shared with the world. The US isn't going to simply get ours before everyone else.


That's why most pharma manufacturers have been manufacturing their vaccine for several months now (basically as soon as they had locked in their formulations).  Granted they might have to destroy them if it doesn't pan out, but just like the development timeline has been drastically shrunk with new tech, I think distribution will blow away previous expectations.

You cannot really compare this Vaccine to the annual Flu.  Flu vaccines have to wait for the experts to determine the 3 or 4 most likely dominant strains for the upcoming season BEFORE they can formulate and begin production.  With Covid, they are using specific m-RNA to target a common part of the virus that is present in the limited number of partial strains out there now.  The two vaccine types are common only in they are vaccines, kind of like an apple and an orange are common only in they are both fruits.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Sep 18, 2020)

machski said:


> That's why most pharma manufacturers have been manufacturing their vaccine for several months now (basically as soon as they had locked in their formulations).  Granted they might have to destroy them if it doesn't pan out, but just like the development timeline has been drastically shrunk with new tech, I think distribution will blow away previous expectations.
> 
> You cannot really compare this Vaccine to the annual Flu.  Flu vaccines have to wait for the experts to determine the 3 or 4 most likely dominant strains for the upcoming season BEFORE they can formulate and begin production.  With Covid, they are using specific m-RNA to target a common part of the virus that is present in the limited number of partial strains out there now.  The two vaccine types are common only in they are vaccines, kind of like an apple and an orange are common only in they are both fruits.



The 6 month window I gave was from the point AFTER the strains are identified. And yes I acknowledged different types of vaccines have different timelines. That doesn't change the fact that you don't manufacture hundreds of millions of doses overnight no matter what technology you're using.

Since you brought up m-RNA, let's focus on Moderna's capabilities and production targets as they have one of the leading covid candidates using that technology. Moderna has stated their goal is to be able to ramp up to get to a point of being able to produce at least 500M doses in 2021 (ideally they want to hit 1B). IF they managed to hit 1B, that still only is enough to vaccinate 500M people (globally). So 6% of the world population. That's nothing. Even if the US somehow gets their 100M doses first from Moderna, that still only cover 50M people (about 15% of the US population)

And for this year, they expect to be able to hit a whopping 20M doses produced by year end.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/18/mod...doses-of-coronavirus-vaccine-by-2020-end.html

I really don't think some of you have any idea what is truly involved in producing vaccines (and let's not even get into the distribution challenges...)


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## dlague (Sep 18, 2020)

Blurski said:


> I guess it works if you and whoever you live with never leave your house in MA for any reason. Seems like a tall order not interact with anyone for 5 months, but skiing is a very powerful drug and can make people do really crazing things!
> 
> You better start to stock pile the gasoline now in both places.
> 
> ...



Were we all not quarantine when stay at home orders came out?  Yet we were still allowed to get gas and groceries and take out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlague (Sep 18, 2020)

Blurski said:


> I guess it works if you and whoever you live with never leave your house in MA for any reason. Seems like a tall order not interact with anyone for 5 months, but skiing is a very powerful drug and can make people do really crazing things!
> 
> You better start to stock pile the gasoline now in both places.
> 
> ...



And who gets it first?  Those in most dire situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Los (Sep 18, 2020)

jdr14 said:


> Winter operations plan is up on the website now:
> https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/mountain-operations-protocol/
> 
> Of note:
> ...



Where are you seeing no seasonal programs?


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## cdskier (Sep 18, 2020)

Los said:


> Where are you seeing no seasonal programs?



https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/winter-operations/


> Lessons
> 
> Changes and offerings for the Ski & Ride School will be announced soon, but we have made the difficult decision to not offer any group lessons or seasonal programs this season. Although we know how disappointing this will be to many of our guests, there is just not a great way to limit interaction between participants in these groups, many of whom will be from different households or bubbles. Private lessons will still be offered, and we are continuing to work on additional offerings as we plan through the fall.


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## JimG. (Sep 18, 2020)

Summarizing last 5 pages:

Don't discuss Killington in the Sugarbush thread. Then 5 pages of COVID discussion. 

You guys make my head hurt.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Summarizing last 5 pages:
> 
> Don't discuss Killington in the Sugarbush thread. Then 5 pages of COVID discussion.
> 
> You guys make my head hurt.



Me too


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## 1dog (Sep 18, 2020)

Don't see anything regarding group lessons or seasonal programs on this link?


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## cdskier (Sep 18, 2020)

1dog said:


> Don't see anything regarding group lessons or seasonal programs on this link?



On this one it is there under the section labeled "Lessons". Also mentioned in the e-mail from John Hammond today (which is mostly a repeat of the info in the following link).

https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/winter-operations/


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## 1dog (Sep 18, 2020)

Sorry just saw the following post.

This is just in:

Gov. Scott rolled back restrictions on the hospitality industry today. Bars/restaurants are allowed indoor service  w restrictions. Hotel/lodges are allowed to operate @ full capacity. The updated travel map def has some more green on it compared to last week .


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## 1dog (Sep 21, 2020)

Any Blazer parents on this string who are trying to figure out alternatives to kids program being cancelled? From what I understand the mountain is looking at semi private alternatives.

We have a 10 yr old hoping to ski with some semblance of his group this winter.


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## Boxtop Willie (Sep 21, 2020)

From what I hear from the inside, the Ski and Ride School is looking at forming "recurring semi-private" group lessons. The school won't form groups, but if a pre-formed group (i.e. a Blazers group) approaches the school they'll set it up. Odds are you can request and get your coach from last year. Things still feel a little "dynamic" but they seem rather confident that some sort of Blazer-like program will form that passes all the Governor's COVID requirements


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## smac75 (Sep 21, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> From what I hear from the inside, the Ski and Ride School is looking at forming "recurring semi-private" group lessons. The school won't form groups, but if a pre-formed group (i.e. a Blazers group) approaches the school they'll set it up. Odds are you can request and get your coach from last year. Things still feel a little "dynamic" but they seem rather confident that some sort of Blazer-like program will form that passes all the Governor's COVID requirements



Thanks, this sounds encouraging!


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## djd66 (Sep 21, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> From what I hear from the inside, the Ski and Ride School is looking at forming "recurring semi-private" group lessons. The school won't form groups, but if a pre-formed group (i.e. a Blazers group) approaches the school they'll set it up. Odds are you can request and get your coach from last year. Things still feel a little "dynamic" but they seem rather confident that some sort of Blazer-like program will form that passes all the Governor's COVID requirements



Given how conservative the state of VT has been, I am very surprised to hear that the MTN will be offering a "work-around" so they can essentially run blazers.


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## Hawk (Sep 22, 2020)

I think the less these type of things are discussed on a forum, the better it will be to actually get them done.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2020)

This...

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## NYDB (Sep 22, 2020)

yeah, you guys are already famous on TGR


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> yeah, you guys are already famous on TGR



The xenophobia in that thread on TGR is crazy (and is exactly why I still don't have much desire to go visit my condo up in VT).


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## HowieT2 (Sep 22, 2020)

f the 'rona.  I just ordered a new touring setup just in case things go south with the chairlifts.


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## Hawk (Sep 22, 2020)

That guy is a little off base.  There are tons of people that have relocated to there place in VT and have been living there for months.  There are still people coming up now that quarantine and plan to stay for the winter.  All well within the rules because they quarneteened for 14 before going out in public.   In my building alone there are 4 families that have relocated.  So seeing non-green plates and saying they are weekenders breaking the rules is a sterotype and shows complete ignorance.  

Personally, I think I should get a tax break from VT if I am not allowed to come up but that is just me.  ;-)


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

Agree on all counts Hawk... :-D

I very much don't like the attitude that just because someone has a non-green plate automatically means they must be breaking the rules.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2020)

Its the "Get off my lawn" mentality.


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

But they're perfectly happy to keep taking our money!


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## deckrdshaw (Sep 22, 2020)

I've seen plans to replace the Valley House double with a high speed quad while extending the base terminal downhill to where the rental shop has been. Clearly the goal is to increase the out of base lift capacity so that the Super Bravo and Gate House quads aren't overwhelmed as they usually are on busy weekend/holiday mornings. But this plan concerns me for two reasons. First, the current intersection with the Valley House traverse and the top terminal of the VH lift is a disaster. The traverse gets scraped down to bare ice by 10:30AM and I see multiple collisions and near misses every day I'm there. Aren't you concerned that a quad would exacerbate this problem? Second, the trails in that pod are already quite heavily used, especially Spring Fling and Snowball/Racers Edge. Why would you want to double lift capacity for a pod with two crowded snowmaking trails, and four expert/upper intermediate natural trails that can't handle many more skiers as it is? Throw in the fact that half of Spring Fling is often closed and you really are setting yourselves up for a diminution of the skiing experience. Lift lines are, by and large, not a big problem at SB.


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## djd66 (Sep 22, 2020)

deckrdshaw said:


> I've seen plans to replace the Valley House double with a high speed quad while extending the base terminal downhill to where the rental shop has been. Clearly the goal is to increase the out of base lift capacity so that the Super Bravo and Gate House quads aren't overwhelmed as they usually are on busy weekend/holiday mornings. But this plan concerns me for two reasons. First, the current intersection with the Valley House traverse and the top terminal of the VH lift is a disaster. The traverse gets scraped down to bare ice by 10:30AM and I see multiple collisions and near misses every day I'm there. Aren't you concerned that a quad would exacerbate this problem? Second, the trails in that pod are already quite heavily used, especially Spring Fling and Snowball/Racers Edge. Why would you want to double lift capacity for a pod with two crowded snowmaking trails, and four expert/upper intermediate natural trails that can't handle many more skiers as it is? Throw in the fact that half of Spring Fling is often closed and you really are setting yourselves up for a diminution of the skiing experience. Lift lines are, by and large, not a big problem at SB.



Have you been asleep for the past few years? This lift has already been replaced,... and btw - it works great.


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Have you been asleep for the past few years? This lift has already been replaced,... and btw - it works great.



LOL. I was literally wondering the same thing. The new lift is great. The redesigned VH traverse merge is great. The loading terminal being lower down the mountain is great. Really odd first post on the forum for sure!


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2020)

Hasn't it been like 5 years? [emoji38]

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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Hasn't it been like 5 years? [emoji38]



Yup...if this post had been just a few days later, we could have said that it was made on the 5th year anniversary of the new towers being delivered!


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## dlague (Sep 22, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Hasn't it been like 5 years? [emoji38]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using AlpineZone mobile app



We were last a SB about five years ago and it was installed which I think was the first year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hawk (Sep 23, 2020)

That is really weird.  It's this guy's first post. If you read this, it does not seem to be related to the current Covid concerns.  It is almost like it was trapped in the sent folder and the moderator clear it out and it was released 5 years later.

Welcome to the twilight zone.


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## tumbler (Sep 23, 2020)

Where's Slidebrook when we need him to discuss lifts?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 23, 2020)

high school


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## cdskier (Sep 23, 2020)

I'm just wondering if there will be a second post from this new person. Potential topics could include rumors of Win selling the mountain and debate about who potential buyers would be!


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## HowieT2 (Sep 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> That is really weird.  It's this guy's first post. If you read this, it does not seem to be related to the current Covid concerns.  It is almost like it was trapped in the sent folder and the moderator clear it out and it was released 5 years later.
> 
> Welcome to the twilight zone.



Russian bot


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## djd66 (Sep 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm just wondering if there will be a second post from this new person. Potential topics could include rumors of Win selling the mountain and debate about who potential buyers would be!



That was funny, thanks for the chuckle!


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## Slidebrook87 (Sep 23, 2020)

deckrdshaw said:


> I've seen plans to replace the Valley House double with a high speed quad while extending the base terminal downhill to where the rental shop has been. Clearly the goal is to increase the out of base lift capacity so that the Super Bravo and Gate House quads aren't overwhelmed as they usually are on busy weekend/holiday mornings. But this plan concerns me for two reasons. First, the current intersection with the Valley House traverse and the top terminal of the VH lift is a disaster. The traverse gets scraped down to bare ice by 10:30AM and I see multiple collisions and near misses every day I'm there. Aren't you concerned that a quad would exacerbate this problem? Second, the trails in that pod are already quite heavily used, especially Spring Fling and Snowball/Racers Edge. Why would you want to double lift capacity for a pod with two crowded snowmaking trails, and four expert/upper intermediate natural trails that can't handle many more skiers as it is? Throw in the fact that half of Spring Fling is often closed and you really are setting yourselves up for a diminution of the skiing experience. Lift lines are, by and large, not a big problem at SB.



Those were the original plans before the fixed quad, and I think the general consensus is that the fixed quad is great and serves as a reliable backup to bravo. 


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## p_levert (Sep 23, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Those were the original plans before the fixed quad, and I think the general consensus is that the fixed quad is great and serves as a reliable backup to bravo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Valley house quad is perfection.  Warm lift, not crowded, can watch skiers on the ride up, and you can access all sorts of interesting terrain.

The only downside is that the lift does not run 7 days a week.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 23, 2020)

but to be fair, its not really warranted to run 7 days a week.  I agree though that it perfectly services the mountain.  whatever additional expense or headache to move the terminal down to the true base level was 100% worth it.


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## Zand (Sep 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm just wondering if there will be a second post from this new person. Potential topics could include rumors of Win selling the mountain and debate about who potential buyers would be!



Did you hear that Killington is replacing the double with gondola?


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## ducky (Sep 23, 2020)

Travel map now updates on Tuesdays. https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## ducky (Sep 26, 2020)

Full-on peak foliage now.


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2020)

Will the bridge on 100b in Moretown be done by ski season? Makes a trip there much longer if Roxbury gap is too sketchy on a given day.


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## stovepipe (Sep 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Will the bridge on 100b in Moretown be done by ski season? Makes a trip there much longer if Roxbury gap is too sketchy on a given day.



   Last I heard was open by October 17th.   They have been working 7-days a week.            JC


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Will the bridge on 100b in Moretown be done by ski season? Makes a trip there much longer if Roxbury gap is too sketchy on a given day.



Supposed to be done by mid-October per VT AOT. It is currently on schedule per the latest reports...


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2020)

ducky said:


> Full-on peak foliage now.View attachment 27052



I know where that is.  Pretty cool place.


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Supposed to be done by mid-October per VT AOT. It is currently on schedule per the latest reports...



The 17th is the date but don't be surprised if it is a few day's earlier.


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## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2020)

Why are they not union?[emoji16]


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Not sure but being union or not has nothing to do with speed.  Cost is another story.  I work with both and usually the union guys are quicker on my projects.


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## skiur (Sep 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Not sure but being union or not has nothing to do with speed.  Cost is another story.  I work with both and usually the union guys are quicker on my projects.



The union jobs that I have had we were always slower and more expensive.


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## Hawk (Sep 30, 2020)

The open shop jobs I have had were good and bad but usually slower.  This was largely because they were undermanned and with less skilled workers.  This sometimes caused quality issues that forced us to redo portions of the work.  It was cheaper but you get what you pay for.  My experiences are from doing construction work in the Boston Market over the last 27 years.  I am sure things differ greatly from market to market.  I can only comment on what I have experienced doing 100's of projects with both union and non-union companies.  There is one thing that holds true for Union companies.  The owners are paying a premium for the labor so they are very organized and push he schedule very hard so they do not loose money.  That is why I always chuckle when people throw out the "it's a union job"  I think it comes from places where Unions have bearing on production like the NYC waterfront and the teamsters.  That is a different dynamic from construction.  Construction has contracts with liquidated damages when schedules get missed.  These get shared with the subcontractors so working slow is usually not the concern.  It's the quality that takes the hit so skilled workers are key.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 6, 2020)

This thread has gotten pretty boring since Winn left :-(


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## cdskier (Oct 6, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> This thread has gotten pretty boring since Winn left :-(



Win usually only posted during ski season for the most part...so I really don't see his leaving as having much to do with the quiet at the moment.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Oct 6, 2020)

So, Hawk, if I remember correctly, you are a big fan of Sunday River. We recently spent a long weekend at our friends new home in downtown Bethel. With the great mountain biking, golfing, restaurants, bars, grocery shopping and a hardware store in walking distance from home and Sunday River 10 minutes away, I’m wondering what brought you to the MRV? Our Maine visit has us questioning where we want to be!


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## ScottySkis (Oct 6, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> So, Hawk, if I remember correctly, you are a big fan of Sunday River. We recently spent a long weekend at our friends new home in downtown Bethel. With the great mountain biking, golfing, restaurants, bars, grocery shopping and a hardware store in walking distance from home and Sunday River 10 minutes away, I’m wondering what brought you to the MRV? Our Maine visit has us questioning where we want to be!



I would guess more natural snow steep trails big vert but I ovisly not hawk


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## Hawk (Oct 12, 2020)

There were lots of reasons.  I still love the people at Sunday River.  I have family members that live there and still visit a ton.  But we needed a change after 17 years.  Sugarbush has, like Scotty says, more snow, Vert, etc.  But is also has tons more woods skiing, side country and back country which is what I like to ski most. As a side note, there is also much better mountain biking in the MRV whish was a great side benefit. In general, ski people are ski people.  We have the same interests and get stoke about the same things.  I have found that my Sugarbush friends are the exact same as my SR friends.  Now I just have more friends.  ;-)


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## Nick (Oct 12, 2020)

By the way, I got skimrv back again online. &#55357;&#56882;


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## Hawk (Oct 12, 2020)

So we attended the socially distanced Community day and got to talk to Winn and John Hamond a bit.  It really sounds like they are going to make every effort to pull off this season.  Some takeaways:
 - Lodges will only have a 150 person capacity.  They want everybody to try plan to stay out of the lodge as much as possible.
 - Boot up at car or at your lodging before coming.  They won't let you do this in the lodge or leave your bag.
 - Outside Apre on the plaza as long as the crowds are kept down and people are responsible. 
 - Bathrooms will be a challenge and distancing will be the key with masks.
 - Food options will be take out, grab-n-go, etc.
 - Ikon Pass holders will get priority but this has been discussed.

Winn was very upbeat and thought that Altura has the capacity to weather the storm.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 12, 2020)

Hawk said:


> So we attended the socially distanced Community day and got to talk to Winn and John Hamond a bit.  It really sounds like they are going to make every effort to pull off this season.  Some takeaways:
> - Lodges will only have a 150 person capacity.  They want everybody to try plan to stay out of the lodge as much as possible.
> - Boot up at car or at your lodging before coming.  They won't let you do this in the lodge or leave your bag.
> - Outside Apre on the plaza as long as the crowds are kept down and people are responsible.
> ...




any mention of adding additional bathroom facilities outside of the lodges especially for the ladies?


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## Hawk (Oct 12, 2020)

They didn't mention that but I am sure that is something they are considering.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Oct 12, 2020)

Hawk, any mention if they were going to be checking the color of people's license plates and asking them to pronounce "mountain", "cow", or "vermont" before letting them ski?


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## Hawk (Oct 12, 2020)

They said that whatever the state regulations are at the time of operations, they will adhere to.


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## Hawk (Oct 12, 2020)

I also thought I heard that they were going to restrict anybody with green plates so they could protect the Vermont citizens from the incoming threat.  LOL


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 12, 2020)

LOL

that's funny...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Oct 12, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I also thought I heard that they were going to restrict anybody with green plates so they could protect the Vermont citizens from the incoming threat.  LOL



Oh yeah, good call  Maybe send all the green plates to Ellen to start the day. And then if you want to go there from Lincoln they'll administer a Covid test when you get on Slidebrook ... by the time you get to the other side the results should be back from the lab.


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## pinnoke (Oct 12, 2020)

*Thanks nick!!!*



Nick said:


> By the way, I got skimrv back again online. ��



Good to see everything properly restored. Thinking SNOW, SAFETY, AND SANITY!!!


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## rocks860 (Oct 18, 2020)

Well based on the current travel restrictions it doesn’t look like I’ll be skiing sugarbush or anywhere in Vermont this year. I usually go up to sugarbush for a week and stay at eagles but at this point I’d have to quarantine for a week before and a week when I get up there which would eat up the whole time I’m there


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## Gmarty (Oct 19, 2020)

So, has it been determined this is an accurate read of the rule?  I can certainly see how it could be read that way.  

Would you rat out your neighbor if you know they are coming and going against the rules?  It is fairly silly because you could live in a green community and go to red community to work every day - so the rule is not accomplishing much.








HowieT2 said:


> That's correct.  Absolutely legal and within the rules to quarantine at home.


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## mbedle (Oct 19, 2020)

The way things are going now, there are not going to be many, if any, green counties on the Vermont map...


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## Hawk (Oct 20, 2020)

Gmarty said:


> So, has it been determined this is an accurate read of the rule?  I can certainly see how it could be read that way.
> 
> Would you rat out your neighbor if you know they are coming and going against the rules?  It is fairly silly because you could live in a green community and go to red community to work every day - so the rule is not accomplishing much.



Would I rat out my neighbor?  Absolutely not.  It is not my business to be the police and I would not know exactly what the circumstances. are for any particular family.  There is nothing I hate more in life than rats.  I say, mind your own business and deal with your own Safety and let the resort, restaurants and the other businesses deal with their safety.


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## slatham (Oct 20, 2020)

Gmarty said:


> So, has it been determined this is an accurate read of the rule?  I can certainly see how it could be read that way.
> 
> Would you rat out your neighbor if you know they are coming and going against the rules?  It is fairly silly because you could live in a green community and go to red community to work every day - so the rule is not accomplishing much.



Not exactly sure the question but you can complete a 14 day quarantine (or 7 days and then negative PCR test) in your home state (regardless of color) as long as you drive a personal vehicle to VT without stops etc.

You can also drive to VT with no stops (in VT) and then quarantine (14 or 7 + test) at your own VT residence. Of course this means bringing 14 days of food etc.

Net-net, unless you (and family if applicable) are all working from home, with no outside contact, then obeying these rules for a ski trip is impossible.


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## Blurski (Oct 20, 2020)

Agree, no need to rat anyone out, it is going to be pretty easy to tell what is going on, when the condo lots and hotel lots are empty from M- TH and full F-S of out of state plates.  
People are going to have to practice what they will say and be consistent & unified throughout all family members, what a mess. Hoping it does not cause a shut down and cost us a ski season.
Maybe the Governor is waiting to get elected first before he makes a big change to the travel guidelines, if he did it before the election it could go badly for him. Does not seem like either candidate is addressing the issue specifically to winter tourism and the impact it will have on the safety of VT residents or VT economy, I think they both know it is a lightning rod and would be a lose/lose for them.


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## ducky (Oct 20, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Agree, no need to rat anyone out, it is going to be pretty easy to tell what is going on, when the condo lots and hotel lots are empty from M- TH and full F-S of out of state plates.
> People are going to have to practice what they will say and be consistent & unified throughout all family members, what a mess. Hoping it does not cause a shut down and cost us a ski season.
> Maybe the Governor is waiting to get elected first before he makes a big change to the travel guidelines, if he did it before the election it could go badly for him. Does not seem like either candidate is addressing the issue specifically to winter tourism and the impact it will have on the safety of VT residents or VT economy, I think they both know it is a lightning rod and would be a lose/lose for them.



Just wondering if you listen to Gov Scott's biweekly radio addresses? He is pretty clear about quarantining, the economy, and the ski season. Sure, there are unanswered questions about the future and what it holds for the ski industry this winter and if other states will go back to green, but he is not willing to simply open up VT for business at the expense of the health of Vermonters. To that he is very clear. His method has been to "open the spigot" slowly and see if flare ups happen, then back off as necessary. Currently, the red areas are creeping back right up to our borders. Fwiw, Zuckerman has way outraised/outspent Scott campaigning and he has little chance of winning due to Scott's popularity based on his handling of the pandemic. Today Gov Scott said it will be a tough year for ski resorts and at best they will see little business.

I am considering an uncle's 80th birthday party in CT (all red) next week and would be outside under a tent, only eight ppl, distanced and with masks on. I feel I would have to quarantine on my return to be safe to my family and local community; 14 days or 7 days and a test. By quarantine, I mean no shopping, no post office, no gas station. Staying home or in the woods. As my wife is recovering from a knee replacement, I may not go as I'm her carer.


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## Harvey (Oct 20, 2020)

ducky said:


> he is not willing to simply open up VT for business at the expense of the health of Vermonters. To that he is very clear. His method has been to "open the spigot" slowly and see if flare ups happen, then back off as necessary



He has a huge structural advantage, leading Vermont.

Power to him.


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## tumbler (Oct 20, 2020)

Has there been a big spike in cases from the huge influx of people on Columbus Day weekend?  Not that I have heard about.  The state was packed and news reports about fully occupied hotels.   One outbreak was from apple orchard workers and the current one is from a rink in Barre that I doubt is related to out of state visitors.  Everyone that is going there for the weekend doesn't want to get sick either and are practicing social distancing and mask wearing at home and there.  I bet a huge majority are doing nothing more than going to the market with a mask and seeing their close group of friends that are in their bubble.  It's not like it is life as usual for everyone outside Vermont.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 20, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Has there been a big spike in cases from the huge influx of people on Columbus Day weekend?  Not that I have heard about.  The state was packed and news reports about fully occupied hotels.   One outbreak was from apple orchard workers and the current one is from a rink in Barre that I doubt is related to out of state visitors.  Everyone that is going there for the weekend doesn't want to get sick either and are practicing social distancing and mask wearing at home and there.  I bet a huge majority are doing nothing more than going to the market with a mask and seeing their close group of friends that are in their bubble.  It's not like it is life as usual for everyone outside Vermont.



This ^


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## djd66 (Oct 20, 2020)

The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 20, 2020)

Safety measures (distancing, masks, etc) should take priority over travel restrictions as both masks and distancing have proven to be extremely effective at reducing the risk of transmission. IMO enforcement of these policies should be quite strict whereas the travel ban, not so much. 


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 20, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.



If one person comes from out of state, they may give him a hard time.  If 1000's come from out of state, they won't be able to do anything about it.

If they shut down the ski areas, it would be like when Hawaii had the lockdowns for Tourist, it almost destroyed Hawaii's  economy.

They won't shut down Ski areas,  The resorts bring alot of dollars and jobs towards their local communities.   It would cost the state more to shutdown the ski areas than to keep them open.


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## slatham (Oct 20, 2020)

ducky said:


> I am considering an uncle's 80th birthday party in CT (all red) next week and would be outside under a tent, only eight ppl, distanced and with masks on. I feel I would have to quarantine on my return to be safe to my family and local community; 14 days or 7 days and a test. By quarantine, I mean no shopping, no post office, no gas station. Staying home or in the woods. As my wife is recovering from a knee replacement, I may not go as I'm her carer.



This is where VT's travel rules fail. According to the CDC people at such an event are not "exposed" to Covid. 6' distance, masks, outside, limited size. This is how its supposed to be done! Yet VT thinks you should quarantine for 14 days after such an event because of the county it happened in? It misses the point, hurts the economy, and hurts the businesses and people of VT.

And as noted elsewhere, the influx of out-of-staters for July 4th, Labor Day and Columbus Day weekend/foliage season did NOT cause a spike.

Because it's not where you're from, its how you act! Have you followed protocol and avoided exposure or not?  And when you get to VT, do you follow the protocol.


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.



You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people.  This adds another good layer to the equation.  People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick.  My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer.  But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up.  If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.


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## skiur (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people.  This adds another good layer to the equation.  People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick.  My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer.  But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up.  If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.



The town of warren may disagree with you on that one!


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## Harvey (Oct 21, 2020)

People who have to work jobs where getting covid is inevitable really get the shit end of the stick.


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

I couldn't care less what they think.  
I have a lawyer friend that is toying with the idea of a law suit.  It probably wont work but hell it's a protest of sorts.  Even if I stop paying and then eventually pay, it will make me feel a little better.  It's a little early to be on this path so lets see how it shake out.  But I would think that at least a credit for a portion would be something that is logically fair if I was restricted from using what I legally paid for and owned. No?


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

Harvey said:


> People who have to work jobs where getting covid is inevitable really get the shit end of the stick.



Yes that is a whole different level of shitty stick.  I have friends now that have actually caught the disease in the health care industry.  I am grateful for their loyalty to their work.


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## tumbler (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people.  This adds another good layer to the equation.  People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick.  My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer.  But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up.  If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.



I heard that MA is going to change their measuring metric and remove nursing homes and jails that are skewing the numbers.  You're absolutely right on the county thing.  It should be by town.  The state has a nice map that is updated weekly showing cases in each town.  It is not done by county.


----------



## skiur (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I couldn't care less what they think.
> I have a lawyer friend that is toying with the idea of a law suit.  It probably wont work but hell it's a protest of sorts.  Even if I stop paying and then eventually pay, it will make me feel a little better.  It's a little early to be on this path so lets see how it shake out.  But I would think that at least a credit for a portion would be something that is logically fair if I was restricted from using what I legally paid for and owned. No?



I agree with you in principle, but in reality I think the only outcome would be you paying late fees on top of your tax bill.


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## mikec142 (Oct 21, 2020)

skiur said:


> I agree with you in principle, but in reality I think the only outcome would be you paying late fees on top of your tax bill.



Yep.  Could turn into a hassle.

FWIW...I'm not trying to stir anything up.  Just genuinely curious.  You're not willing to break the quarantine rules to make a point, but your willing to break the law (not paying taxes) to make a point?


----------



## machski (Oct 21, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Yep.  Could turn into a hassle.
> 
> FWIW...I'm not trying to stir anything up.  Just genuinely curious.  You're not willing to break the quarantine rules to make a point, but your willing to break the law (not paying taxes) to make a point?


If it is not his permanent residence and he has to pay taxes on the property, then isn't it more of a use tax?  Regardless, a use/proerty tax is kind of a two way agreement.  If so, if the munincipality restricts him for using what he owns haven't they already violated that tax agreement then by prohibiting him from using it?  I guess one could argue he could rent it out (assuming there are renters looking/could use as well) and then he is still using his property.  Still, I see a lot of legal questions this could raise up if these measures continue.  When it first hit and we didn't really have a handle on how it spreads etc, that was one thing.  Public health emergency, sucked but I think most of us got that.  Now?  How long does this go on?  Too much longer it will get like the Boston Tea Party days, taxation without representation (in this case, that being allowed to even use one's property).

And before you say no way, look at NH taking MA to the Supreme Court to challenge MA income taxes being withheld from now fully remote workers living and working out of NH.  These measures will surely draw legal challenges on property taxes of owners being barred from use should this carry on much longer as well.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## skiur (Oct 21, 2020)

machski said:


> If it is not his permanent residence and he has to pay taxes on the property, then isn't it more of a use tax?  Regardless, a use/proerty tax is kind of a two way agreement.  If so, if the munincipality restricts him for using what he owns haven't they already violated that tax agreement then by prohibiting him from using it?  I guess one could argue he could rent it out (assuming there are renters looking/could use as well) and then he is still using his property.  Still, I see a lot of legal questions this could raise up if these measures continue.  When it first hit and we didn't really have a handle on how it spreads etc, that was one thing.  Public health emergency, sucked but I think most of us got that.  Now?  How long does this go on?  Too much longer it will get like the Boston Tea Party days, taxation without representation (in this case, that being allowed to even use one's property).
> 
> And before you say no way, look at NH taking MA to the Supreme Court to challenge MA income taxes being withheld from now fully remote workers living and working out of NH.  These measures will surely draw legal challenges on property taxes of owners being barred from use should this carry on much longer as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



The state isn't saying he can't use his property, he just can't commute back and forth from boston without quarantine.  I'm sure some lawyers or people with money to throw away will challenge the taxes but I don't see them winning.


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## tumbler (Oct 21, 2020)

machski said:


> If it is not his permanent residence and he has to pay taxes on the property, then isn't it more of a use tax?  Regardless, a use/proerty tax is kind of a two way agreement.  If so, if the munincipality restricts him for using what he owns haven't they already violated that tax agreement then by prohibiting him from using it?  I guess one could argue he could rent it out (assuming there are renters looking/could use as well) and then he is still using his property.  Still, I see a lot of legal questions this could raise up if these measures continue.  When it first hit and we didn't really have a handle on how it spreads etc, that was one thing.  Public health emergency, sucked but I think most of us got that.  Now?  How long does this go on?  Too much longer it will get like the Boston Tea Party days, taxation without representation (in this case, that being allowed to even use one's property).
> 
> And before you say no way, look at NH taking MA to the Supreme Court to challenge MA income taxes being withheld from now fully remote workers living and working out of NH.  These measures will surely draw legal challenges on property taxes of owners being barred from use should this carry on much longer as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



With the high rates second homeowners pay it has always been taxation without representation.


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## djd66 (Oct 21, 2020)

Nothing like some good old fashion Covid-19 talk to bring the Sugarbush Thread back to life!


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## HowieT2 (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people.  This adds another good layer to the equation.  People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick.  My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer.  But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up.  If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.




But its not the town of warren imposing restrictions, its the state.
Also, your county is in no way unique in having covid numbers skewed by outbreaks in a small segment of the population.  In fact new york state recently announced restrictions on a micro neighborhood level for this very reason.  perhaps VT would do well to adopt a more focused quarantine criteria rather than at a county level, although I'm not sure that such refined data is readily available.

but hey, on the bright side, we have something fresh and new to discuss as opposed to the annual snowmaking debate.  So we got that going for us.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 21, 2020)

I'm a lawyer and I often have to admonish my clients that its easy to bring a case but winning is a different story.


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Yep.  Could turn into a hassle.
> 
> FWIW...I'm not trying to stir anything up.  Just genuinely curious.  You're not willing to break the quarantine rules to make a point, but your willing to break the law (not paying taxes) to make a point?



Not paying taxes is not that big a deal.  There are thousands of people that do it each year.  They hire a company that bargains with the municipality and pay only a small percentage.  For the record I do not plan to do that.
Short Answer is.... I'm not making any point by considering to hold the line on the governors conservative guidelines but you won't infect and possibly kill people by not paying your taxes.
For the first time, ever,  I can truly understand where the conservative right wing people are coming from.  Not until just now.  The government over taxes us and then restricts us from doing the things we love.  My god, the next thing you know I'm gong to change my vote to Trump.  LOL


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## Blurski (Oct 21, 2020)

Speaking of snowmaking, anyone take a look at the snowmaking pond, is it full now that we have had some rain over the past several weeks.
Figuring if it is not full the mountain will be able to pull the we are not making snow due to the drought and low pond levels.

Also, did they ever publish the youtube link for community day that had audio, seems like the website is void of any mention of it.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Oct 21, 2020)

My policy for quarantining has evolved over the course of the last six months. For March - end of May, I didn't go to VT at all. From June to end of August I would go up w/ groceries and not interact with anyone local up close, at all. From Sep - now I will go into the grocery store (wearing a mask) but that's it -- no restaurants, etc. Last weekend I went backpacking in the Breadloaf Wilderness and saw a total of two people. I have very low risk of exposure in my day to day life, *and* I already had Covid-19 in March, and I always wear a mask in public settings, so I do not feel like I am putting people at risk. Also, everyone in the valley now seems to be pretty chill.  If I feel like i can go skiing without interacting closely with the locals, I probably will, regardless of what the state policy is. I think their precise methods for determining who can travel are ill-advised. But I also have a backcountry setup and snowshoes, so I'm prepared to not do lift-served skiing this season if need be.


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## ducky (Oct 21, 2020)

tumbler said:


> With the high rates second homeowners pay it has always been taxation without representation.



Actually, for about 15 years now, in both Warren and Waitsfield, non-resident rates are lower than resident. There is not much difference in the rates but they are lower. This is a second-homeowner myth and often incorrectly stated when arguing about the "unfairness" of taxes. Being as there's really only road crews in the town budget, and this is heavily weighted on winter months, residents and non-residents see similar usage. Education benefits all in higher property values. (ever wonder why Roxbury is so much less to buy into than Warren?)

Warren 2020 Tax rates:
Residential; municipal 0.41 + educational 1.6814 = 2.0914
Non-Resident; municipal 0.41 + educational 1.6761 = 2.0861

Waitsfield:
Total FY20 residential property tax rate = $2.0891 per $100 of assessed value.
Total FY20 non-residential property tax rate = $2.0560 per $100 of assessed value. 

Re Hawk and not paying the taxes: As it's been said, nothing stopping you from quarantining and using your second home or renting it. I think you'll find it is like Howie said; tough to win. My guess is you're coming anyway.

My 82yo mom stopped paying her 2020 taxes in Florida in protest and it cost me $800 to get the property out of a tax lien sale, or about 20% of her total bill.


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## ss20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Speaking of snowmaking, anyone take a look at the snowmaking pond, is it full now that we have had some rain over the past several weeks.
> Figuring if it is not full the mountain will be able to pull the we are not making snow due to the drought and low pond levels.



Even with the rain most streams and rivers are below average still.  Got another soaker coming up Sunday night to Monday.  

I wouldn't worry about SB not blowing snow early.  Places are gonna want to open as much terrain as they can to keep their capacity up.


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## djd66 (Oct 21, 2020)

ducky said:


> Warren 2020 Tax rates:
> Residential; municipal 0.41 + educational 1.6814 = 2.0914
> Non-Resident; municipal 0.41 + educational 1.6761 = 2.0861
> 
> ...



The question is, Why is there a different rate for residential VS non-residential? Seems strange to me and I'm surprised that this has not been questioned in the courts. In the past the rate for non-residential was higher than residential and I think that was what pissed people off so much.   In Massachusetts it does not matter where you live full time, everyone pays the same rate.


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## skiur (Oct 21, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Even with the rain most streams and rivers are below average still.  Got another soaker coming up Sunday night to Monday.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about SB not blowing snow early.  Places are gonna want to open as much terrain as they can to keep their capacity up.



The downside is they will probably be painting them pretty thin then get on to the next one to keep capacity up.


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## ducky (Oct 21, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The question is, Why is there a different rate for residential VS non-residential? Seems strange to me and I'm surprised that this has not been questioned in the courts. In the past the rate for non-residential was higher than residential and I think that was what pissed people off so much.   In Massachusetts it does not matter where you live full time, everyone pays the same rate.



There are homestead rules in Vermont (like Florida) and taxes are abated on a sliding income scale up to $138,250/pa based on federal and state returns filed each year. See Vermont Forms HS-122/HI-144. https://tax.vermont.gov/property-owners/homestead-declaration


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2020)

Ducky, are you a tax accountant?  LOL  I knew it was not that much of a difference.  I think they changed it recently though?  It is certainly really high compared to my taxes in MA.
I actually have not made my decision on what I am going to do this winter.  We are leaning to actually come up for a month or 6 weeks starting just before Christmas.  7day Quarantine - test and then go and work from up there and ski a bunch.  Living on the mountain gives us an advantage of not having to mingle with the masses at all except for lift line and I expect that people are freeked out enough that there are not going to be any lines anyway.


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2020)

skiur said:


> The downside is they will probably be painting them pretty thin then get on to the next one to keep capacity up.



I highly doubt that.  John Hammond has the same mindset as Winn.  They set up the guns on one trail at a time and bury it so they don't have to come back for a long while.  It saves them labor.  They do not have enough guns and hoses to set up on multiple trials so they have to breakdown and move everything.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2020)

It really seems silly that Sugarbush has such a small arsenal of snowmaking equipment.  Winters aren't getting colder.  They should be able to be setup on 2 trails at a time...  even if they are only blowing one at a time.   then while they are blowing they can be moving the setup in a leapfrog fashion.   That doesn't seem like such a huge expense to have 2 sets of ground guns and hoses.  My little hill in PA probably has more ground equipment that SB, in addition to all of the tower and permanent fan guns.  They also have to make 100% of their snow most winters.

I know everyone likes SB because they let it somewhat a la natural, but it seems kind archaic.


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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The question is, Why is there a different rate for residential VS non-residential? Seems strange to me and I'm surprised that this has not been questioned in the courts. In the past the rate for non-residential was higher than residential and I think that was what pissed people off so much.   In Massachusetts it does not matter where you live full time, everyone pays the same rate.


So non residents pay higher taxes *and* have zero kids in the local school system *and* cannot vote locally.  No money grab there.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> So non residents pay higher taxes *and* have zero kids in the local school system *and* cannot vote locally.  No money grab there.



In some towns non-residents pay lower taxes.  Locals are punished if they increase taxes at too high a rate.  If I lived in one of those towns I would be very tempted to NOT file the homestead declaration.

That said, I have never understood why you have to be a resident in order to vote on the town budget.  If you own property and pay taxes, you should be able to vote.


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## slatham (Oct 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I highly doubt that.  John Hammond has the same mindset as Winn.  They set up the guns on one trail at a time and bury it so they don't have to come back for a long while.  It saves them labor.  They do not have enough guns and hoses to set up on multiple trials so they have to breakdown and move everything.



Agree. But is this year different due to 1) need for more trails and lifts pods as quick as possible and 2) less skier traffic on those trails? I'm wondering if laying down 25-35% less and moving on that much faster might be a good trade off?


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2020)

I guess we will see.  With John on his own without Winn, things might change.  He did say on Community day that they will start snowmaking on time on Nov 1 and open three weeks later with the same plan as last year.  Spring fling and Gate house as the priority.


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## Smellytele (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> .
> 
> That said, I have never understood why you have to be a resident in order to vote on the town budget.  If you own property and pay taxes, you should be able to vote.



Why would someone who isn’t a resident want school funding? Or a library etc? Specially in a ski town?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Why would someone who isn’t a resident want school funding? Or a library etc? Specially in a ski town?


Therein lies the problem.  It just seems odd to me that someone can be taxed and have absolutely no say in the matter.


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## skiur (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Therein lies the problem.  It just seems odd to me that someone can be taxed and have absolutely no say in the matter.



Taxation without representation huh? Where have I heard that before?


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 25, 2020)

I wonder if Steins is going to be open early season along with Spring Fling. It would give a great variety going from the trail off the carpet all the way to a difficult trail like Steins. I felt like they could’ve used at least one more trail last season. 


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## slatham (Oct 25, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I wonder if Steins is going to be open early season along with Spring Fling. It would give a great variety going from the trail off the carpet all the way to a difficult trail like Steins. I felt like they could’ve used at least one more trail last season.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Social distancing is the priority so Steins will not be hit until all lifts serviced by snowmaking are open IMHO.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 25, 2020)

slatham said:


> Social distancing is the priority so Steins will not be hit until all lifts serviced by snowmaking are open IMHO.


If I recall correctly, last season, they didn’t hit steins until later in the program.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 26, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> If I recall correctly, last season, they didn’t hit steins until later in the program.



I think they did too, but I was just wondering if it could be open this year given that it’s off of Valley House and has a pretty advanced snowmaking system. 


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## 1dog (Oct 26, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think they did too, but I was just wondering if it could be open this year given that it’s off of Valley House and has a pretty advanced snowmaking system.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



https://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Mount-Ellen-Vermont/forecasts/1244

looks like they will have the cool they need to get started.


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## Hawk (Oct 26, 2020)

If you click on the base elevation of 1600 feet you will see that the low temps only go down to the upper 20's and only for a couple of days.  We need the highs to go to the 20's for an extended period to have a window large enough to make good snow.


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## 1dog (Oct 26, 2020)

and deeper, frozen ground to hold it.


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## Hawk (Oct 26, 2020)

I guess my point is that those temps won't work and the ground is not frozen yet.  Not even close.


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## skiur (Oct 26, 2020)

Hawk said:


> If you click on the base elevation of 1600 feet you will see that the low temps only go down to the upper 20's and only for a couple of days.  We need the highs to go to the 20's for an extended period to have a window large enough to make good snow.



They could stockpile snow at the higher elevations, no need to blow top to bottom.  Then when they get the good temps down low they are already halfway there.


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## Hawk (Oct 26, 2020)

You don't understand how they operate.  They will blow up top but they want to open the lower slopes of Spring fling and gate house first.  Blowing up top is a last case thing these days for them.


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## djd66 (Oct 26, 2020)

Personally, I would rather they wait until there is consistent cold weather - rather then blowing too early, only to watch is wash out.  Last year they opened Gatehouse and Spring fling early - anyone know if this is the plan for this year?


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## Hawk (Oct 26, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Personally, I would rather they wait until there is consistent cold weather - rather then blowing too early, only to watch is wash out.  Last year they opened Gatehouse and Spring fling early - anyone know if this is the plan for this year?



Yes.  I went to community day and John Hammond said they will do the exact same thing as last year and that it work well for them.


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## tumbler (Oct 26, 2020)

And they are going to stick to their snowmaking start date regardless of temps.  I think it's Nov 6th.


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## tumbler (Oct 26, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yes.  I went to community day and John Hammond said they will do the exact same thing as last year and that it work well for them.



I was skeptical about it working but I really liked it instead of Jester/Downspout.


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## Hawk (Oct 26, 2020)

Here is the community day speech if you want to hear the whole thing:
https://blog.sugarbush.com/mountain/watch-the-community-day-presidents-speech/


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## cdskier (Oct 26, 2020)

And here's info on just their snowmaking plan for people that don't want to listen to the whole thing:
https://blog.sugarbush.com/mountain/an-early-season-snowmaking-update/

The plan to do the same thing as last year with a run off both VH and GH first is also mentioned on their snow report page on the website.


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## slatham (Oct 26, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You don't understand how they operate.  They will blow up top but they want to open the lower slopes of Spring fling and gate house first.  Blowing up top is a last case thing these days for them.



Agreed, they won't pull the plug on the plan unless we're into Nov with little production down low and only temps up top.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some guns on this weekend, they'll certainly have temps at least at night.

And Mother Nature may throw in a few inches too.....


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## tumbler (Oct 27, 2020)

slatham said:


> Agreed, they won't pull the plug on the plan unless we're into Nov with little production down low and only temps up top.
> 
> That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some guns on this weekend, they'll certainly have temps at least at night.
> 
> And Mother Nature may throw in a few inches too.....



Highly doubt they will fire up before their start date.


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## Hawk (Oct 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Highly doubt they will fire up before their start date.



They said November 3rd I think?  Which does not make sense as it is a Tuesday (Election Day).  November 2 is a Monday but if cold is moving in I bet one day earlier is not a bid deal.


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## slatham (Oct 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Highly doubt they will fire up before their start date.



The start date has always been on or after Nov 1st which is part of this coming weekend (the article references Nov 4 but that was based on then current forecasts). Though I think its 50/50 they go this weekend. Killington and SR for sure. It'll be interesting to see if Mt Snow, Okemo, Stowe etc go. There are several windows Friday night through early/midweek next week.


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## tumbler (Oct 27, 2020)

Nov 4th is the date.  On the snow report.


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## slatham (Oct 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Nov 4th is the date.  On the snow report.



We're arguing two different things and are both right.


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## ducky (Oct 27, 2020)

Could see the frost line hovering around Allyn's Lodge elevation today. Was 43˚ at my house in Waitsfield at 1,100', despite what NOAA said.

Winter will come soon and Sugarbush will make snow when they are able to. Got deer hunting season to get through first for many.

Couple of interesting flyovers this afternoon; first a Bald Eagle, then shortly after, an F-35.


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## ducky (Oct 27, 2020)

Snowing now!


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2020)

Green Mountain Boys on the move.  Nice.


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## djd66 (Oct 28, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Green Mountain Boys on the move.  Nice.



Not to be confused with the “Proud Boys”


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## ducky (Oct 28, 2020)

https://www.158fw.ang.af.mil


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2020)

I once was at the top of Heavens Gate and 2 F-35's flew over.  One right side up, one upside down.  They were so close that we could see their faces.  I will never forget that.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 28, 2020)

woah...  that sounds cool


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## machski (Oct 28, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Green Mountain Boys on the move.  Nice.


I believe that squadron name has been nixed.

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## teleo (Oct 28, 2020)

Couple of the boys own condos at the bush so they liked to fly the f15s over.  Must be training with the f35s now.


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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2020)

machski said:


> I believe that squadron name has been nixed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



What do you mean?


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## urungus (Oct 28, 2020)

They were waving the Green Mountain Boys flag as of two weeks ago https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/14/wheels-down-for-20th-f-35-in-vermont/


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## urungus (Oct 28, 2020)




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## Hawk (Oct 28, 2020)

machski said:


> I believe that squadron name has been nixed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I think they were F-16's before these new F-35's came.  So I stand corrected, it was F-16 that I saw because that was like 10 years ago.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 28, 2020)

I just left the bottom of Bravo when they flew over and for a split second the sound of the jets mimicked the sound of the grips leaving the terminal. I looked back thinking it was something wrong with the lift only to see two fighter jets come soaring over. 


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 28, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I just left the bottom of Bravo when they flew over and for a split second the sound of the jets mimicked the sound of the grips leaving the terminal. I looked back thinking it was something wrong with the lift only to see two fighter jets come soaring over.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The instance I’m referring to was during the 2018/19 season I believe. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1dog (Oct 28, 2020)

Same here on the low flying Air National Guard  - also had them in close proximity on North Twin Mt a few summers ago. . .  they were practicing maneuvers and what a show that was at 4300 feet. Felt  like it was just for me and my hiking buds.

I bet GMB's wouldn't have much disagreement with PB's tenets:

    Minimal Government
Maximum Freedom
Anti-Political Correctness
Anti-Drug War
Closed Borders
Anti-Racial Guilt
Anti-Racism
Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
Glorifying the Entrepreneur
Venerating the Housewife
Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism

1st time Ive actually seen their site. I'm sure they will be banned from most SM sites. Aaaah. . . freedom of speech. 

Speaking of Ethan Allen - one of the best books  I've ever read was the History of the White Mountains written by his wife, Lucy Crawford.  He was the definition of tough.


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## mister moose (Oct 28, 2020)

1dog said:


> Same here on the low flying Air National Guard  - also had them in close proximity on North Twin Mt a few summers ago. . .  they were practicing maneuvers and what a show that was at 4300 feet. Felt  like it was just for me and my hiking buds.


That area is within the Yankee One Military Operation Area, so military traffic there is expected.  Lots of MOAs around the country.  My cousin lives in an area of Virginia where they practice low level flight.  One passing overhead at ~200 feet is pulse stopping.


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## djd66 (Oct 28, 2020)

Anybody know what the deal is with John Egan? I am heard a rumor he is not with the company anymore.


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## machski (Oct 28, 2020)

urungus said:


> They were waving the Green Mountain Boys flag as of two weeks ago https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/14/wheels-down-for-20th-f-35-in-vermont/


Flag may have stayed, but the squadron nickname Green Mountain Boys had to go.  At least the Boys part, what I had heard is the squadron got a female commander who took offense at Boys in the squad Nickname.

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## mikec142 (Oct 28, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Anybody know what the deal is with John Egan? I am heard a rumor he is not with the company anymore.



That would be a major bummer for me.  Every year, I say I'm gonna take a lesson/tour with him and my plans always seem to get screwed up.  Would love to do a guided tour through Slidebrook with him.


----------



## djd66 (Oct 28, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> That would be a major bummer for me.  Every year, I say I'm gonna take a lesson/tour with him and my plans always seem to get screwed up.  Would love to do a guided tour through Slidebrook with him.



I heard this from a couple of people. Apparently there is a letter writing campaign going on to Rusty(CEO of Altera) to see if they will reconsider this move.


----------



## mtl1076 (Oct 28, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Anybody know what the deal is with John Egan? I am heard a rumor he is not with the company anymore.



I heard he has a pass at a neighboring ski area this season.


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 28, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> I heard he has a pass at a neighboring ski area this season.



Do you know what Mtn he is at?


----------



## STREETSKIER (Oct 29, 2020)

*The &quot;Sugarbush Thread&quot;*



Cobbold said:


> Do you know what Mtn he is at?


 Crickets 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hawk (Oct 29, 2020)

machski said:


> Flag may have stayed, but the squadron nickname Green Mountain Boys had to go.  At least the Boys part, what I had heard is the squadron got a female commander who took offense at Boys in the squad Nickname.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Their official website has has that video that was posted on here earlier that still has the Green mountain boys name in the title of the video.  It is recent so whatever you heard is not been taken seriously.  Also if you do a search on it, nothing comes up as news.  You would think it would show up.  I don't care what people think, I will always call them the Green Mountain Boys.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 29, 2020)

STREETSKIER said:


> Crickets
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What I heard was that "management", I am not sure if that means John Hammond or not, eliminated that position that Winn gave him.  What was it, VP of Fun or something?  To date they have not offered or given him a new position.  I think with Ski School being such a question mark they did not want to commit the full time position dollars to him?  I can't confirm what they were thinking.  I will have more once I talk to people this weekend.  I bet he gets a pass at MRG.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 29, 2020)

Either way, he is Sugarbush and deserves to be employed there.  He has spent most of his later years promoting this mountain.  I will miss seeing him out on the hill if he is actually gone.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What I heard was that "management", I am not sure if that means John Hammond or not, eliminated that position that Winn gave him.  What was it, VP of Fun or something?  To date they have not offered or given him a new position.  I think with Ski School being such a question mark they did not want to commit the full time position dollars to him?  I can't confirm what they were thinking.  I will have more once I talk to people this weekend.  I bet he gets a pass at MRG.



"Chief Recreational Officer" was the official title he had. I'd bet MRG as well. And I'm assuming that was what mtl1076 was implying (especially if mtl1076 is who I think he is).



Hawk said:


> Either way, he is Sugarbush and deserves to be employed there.  He has spent most of his later years promoting this mountain.  I will miss seeing him out on the hill if he is actually gone.



Agreed.


----------



## djd66 (Oct 29, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Either way, he is Sugarbush and deserves to be employed there.  He has spent most of his later years promoting this mountain.  I will miss seeing him out on the hill if he is actually gone.



Completely agree.  All that he has done to promote SB over the years, I think it’s complete BS that they let him go at this stage in his career.  No idea what he was getting paid, but it will be tough for MRG to match SB money I’m sure.


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Completely agree.  All that he has done to promote SB over the years, I think it’s complete BS that they let him go at this stage in his career.  No idea what he was getting paid, but it will be tough for MRG to match SB money I’m sure.



Another mistake by alterra, people rave about alterra but in my eyes they make mistake after mistake, this is another example, Eagan brothers are huge, would not be shocked if he ends up at Stowe for all their back country skiing.  One less reason for me to ski sugarbush without the Eagan’s their.


----------



## 1dog (Oct 29, 2020)

The good news forecast calls for a steady dose of cold and snow:

https://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Mount-Ellen-Vermont/forecasts/1244


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## Hawk (Oct 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Another mistake by alterra, people rave about alterra but in my eyes they make mistake after mistake, this is another example, Eagan brothers are huge, would not be shocked if he ends up at Stowe for all their back country skiing.  One less reason for me to ski sugarbush without the Eagan’s their.



It's just John at Sugarbush.  Dan does extreme clinics and spends most of his time at Big Sky, Jackson and Squaw.


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## mikec142 (Oct 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> One less reason for me to ski sugarbush without the Eagan’s their.



Frustrating for sure.  And I'm happy to be part of any letter writing campaign directed at keeping Egan there.  But I'm not writing SB off in any way.  Will it be different without John and Win?  I'm sure it will.  Will it be better or worse (or the same)?  That remains to be seen.  Going to a corporate owner will change things.  Just not sure which direction it will be.  So, in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy SB the same way I've done in the past.  I'm going to cherish the vibe, the terrain, the people, and the feeling I have when I'm there.


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## 1dog (Oct 29, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Frustrating for sure.  And I'm happy to be part of any letter writing campaign directed at keeping Egan there.  But I'm not writing SB off in any way.  Will it be different without John and Win?  I'm sure it will.  Will it be better or worse (or the same)?  That remains to be seen.  Going to a corporate owner will change things.  Just not sure which direction it will be.  So, in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy SB the same way I've done in the past.  I'm going to cherish the vibe, the terrain, the people, and the feeling I have when I'm there.


ditto


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 29, 2020)

1dog said:


> ditto



This has a deer valley feel to it, bob wheaton left deer valley after alterra bought it and lots of skiers think deer valley has lost some of their mojo, looks like mojo loss coming up for sugarbush


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## tumbler (Oct 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> This has a deer valley feel to it, bob wheaton left deer valley after alterra bought it and lots of skiers think deer valley has lost some of their mojo, looks like mojo loss coming up for sugarbush



This will undoubtedly happen regardless if Egan is gone (which does suck btw).  It went from a private hands on, present owner to a corporation.  As long as it does not become homogeneous like the Vail model it will be ok.  The terrain is not changing and hopefully it snows.


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## Cobbold (Oct 29, 2020)

Time will tell, hopefully sugarbush doesn’t miss a beat, but not having win smith around hurts.


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## djd66 (Oct 29, 2020)

as long as they make a shit load of snow, I will be happy.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 30, 2020)

I'm not sure I've ever heard shit load of man made snow and Sugarbush in the same sentence  :lol:


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## tumbler (Oct 30, 2020)

"we're not doing it for the money, we're doing it for a shitload of money!"


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## machski (Oct 30, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Their official website has has that video that was posted on here earlier that still has the Green mountain boys name in the title of the video.  It is recent so whatever you heard is not been taken seriously.  Also if you do a search on it, nothing comes up as news.  You would think it would show up.  I don't care what people think, I will always call them the Green Mountain Boys.


I agree.  I had heard that several years ago now, long before the F35's were on their way.  I know there was a lot of disagreement on dropping the nickname.  If it has stayed, glad it did. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## flakeydog (Oct 30, 2020)

_The Vermont Air National Guard, home of the 158th Fighter Wing, became federally recognized nearly a century ago, on 1 August 1946. The Green Mountain Boys began their first major mission flying the P-47 Thunderbolt, and by 1950 were flying the historic P-51 Mustang. In all, the Vermont Air National Guard has flown more than eight different aircraft missions, including bombers and fighters.
Over 30 years ago, in 1986, the unit transitioned from the F-4 Phantom to the F-16 Fighting Falcon. On 11 September 2001, members of the 134th Fighter Squadron were returning from a training mission and received real-world orders to respond to the terrorist attacks. Weapons technicians loaded live ordinances on the aircraft, and the Green Mountain Boys began daily Combat Air Patrols over New York City and other locations in the eastern region of the United States. During the following months, approximately 500 members of the unit were activated and successfully flew missions for 122 consecutive days. It is because of the dedication and fortitude of the men and women of the Vermont Air National Guard that has allowed for such a successful and effective flying force.
After more than three decades of successful flying operations with the F-16, the Vermont Air National Guard began transitioning to the F-35 Lightning II in 2019. The legacy of the Green Mountain Boys will continue with its ninth airframe, as they approach their 75th anniversary in 2021.  _

I think that sums it up nicely.  From the VTANG website.  Next time you fly into BTV, look across the runway and you cant miss it.


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## djd66 (Oct 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> "we're not doing it for the money, we're doing it for a shitload of money!"



I don't think they will be making a shit load of money this year, lets just hope we have a shit load of natural snow and we all get to ski a shit load!


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 30, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Frustrating for sure.  And I'm happy to be part of any letter writing campaign directed at keeping Egan there.  But I'm not writing SB off in any way.  Will it be different without John and Win?  I'm sure it will.  Will it be better or worse (or the same)?  That remains to be seen.  Going to a corporate owner will change things.  Just not sure which direction it will be.  So, in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy SB the same way I've done in the past.  I'm going to cherish the vibe, the terrain, the people, and the feeling I have when I'm there.



This.

Sorry to see Egan's position eliminated.  That being said, Not knowing anything about what his prior deal involved, I'll hold off from criticizing.  I mean, having Egan around as the minister of fun, was great, but not priceless.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 30, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> This.
> 
> Sorry to see Egan's position eliminated.  That being said, Not knowing anything about what his prior deal involved, I'll hold off from criticizing.  I mean, having Egan around as the minister of fun, was great, but not priceless.



Agreed. I'd like to know more as well before criticizing the decision. Him not being around really isn't going to have any direct impact on my enjoyment of skiing at Sugarbush.

That being said, I did just come across a petition being circulated on Facebook for anyone interested:
https://www.change.org/p/sugarbush-...he-guardian-of-the-great-culture-at-sugarbush


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## nicsterdowner (Oct 30, 2020)

Please read the enclosed and consider supporting this petition to Alterra to reconsider their decision to terminate John Egan, ski legend and mater teacher.  We feel this is a terrible decision that jeopardizes the culture of our wonderful mountain.  Here is the petition -- 

https://www.change.org/sugarbushneedsegan


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## nicsterdowner (Oct 30, 2020)

It does hurt, and Egan is a double whammy.  Please consider supporting this petition to Alterra to reconsider its horrible decision about terminating Egan.  https://www.change.org/sugarbushneedsegan


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## WinS (Oct 31, 2020)

nicsterdowner said:


> It does hurt, and Egan is a double whammy.  Please consider supporting this petition to Alterra to reconsider its horrible decision about terminating Egan.  https://www.change.org/sugarbushneedsegan



I said I would not be posting any more on this forum now that I am retired, but I do have to break that this once. I am no longer involved in management now that I have retired but available to give advice it asked.

There are always two sides of a story and I am not sure all the facts are known. John was a very respected colleague and is a good friend. He was very good for Sugarbush and Sugarbush was very good to John. However, COVID is presenting very difficult and complex issues for Sugarbush and all other ski areas. As much we may dislike it the status quo will not be in place this winter. Everyone is going to have to adapt and not all may want to. That’s it, back to “retirement” and preparing to get on the slopes soon. I have my new downhill boots and new  and AT Gear.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 31, 2020)

WinS said:


> I said I would not be posting any more on this forum now that I am retired, but I do have to break that this once. I am no longer involved in management now that I have retired but available to give advice it asked.
> 
> There are always two sides of a story and I am not sure all the facts are known. John was a very respected colleague and is a good friend. He was very good for Sugarbush and Sugarbush was very good to John. However, COVID is presenting very difficult and complex issues for Sugarbush and all other ski areas. As much we may dislike it the status quo will not be in place this winter. Everyone is going to have to adapt and not all may want to. That’s it, back to “retirement” and preparing to get on the slopes soon. I have my new downhill boots and new  and AT Gear.



Thanks for chiming in Win, hope all is well. See you on the slopes.


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## 1dog (Oct 31, 2020)

Certainly can understand the squeeze as a small business owner. Ski area cash flow is,  like many other businesses, going to be devastated by lack of F&B sales, and probably limited traffic.

They are obligated to protect and enhance shareholder value.  Many of us are doing the same, cutting out all non-essential expenses to stay above water until we get back to some standard of normal.


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## Cobbold (Oct 31, 2020)

Mr smith,   Thank you for all you did at sugarbush, every couple of years I would come thru sugarbush for a few days, and every trip it was better that the previous trip, well done sir, well done


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## ducky (Nov 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> Certainly can understand the squeeze as a small business owner. Ski area cash flow is,  like many other businesses, going to be devastated by lack of F&B sales, and probably limited traffic.
> 
> They are obligated to protect and enhance shareholder value.  Many of us are doing the same, cutting out all non-essential expenses to stay above water until we get back to some standard of normal.



Alterra is a privately-held company.


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## NYDB (Nov 2, 2020)

^ privately held companies are responsible to shareholders  as well


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

They're making snow per the snow report and have picked up 6" up top


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## Blurski (Nov 3, 2020)

Another customer satisfaction move, the snow report say "Skinning is not permitted" at either mountain.  This one kills me as they do not own the land that South is on. Yes they have this mysterious "Special Use Permit" the state issues them, good luck trying to find it in the public records to see what it actually says.  It would be nice if Mr. "H" would post the entire permit for all to read.


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## tumbler (Nov 3, 2020)

It's the National Forest Service, not the state.  It's an operating agreement, they have the right to make the rules.  No different than setting dates for opening and closing.


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## machski (Nov 3, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Another customer satisfaction move, the snow report say "Skinning is not permitted" at either mountain.  This one kills me as they do not own the land that South is on. Yes they have this mysterious "Special Use Permit" the state issues them, good luck trying to find it in the public records to see what it actually says.  It would be nice if Mr. "H" would post the entire permit for all to read.


Since they have an operating permit and they are in the process of preparing the mountain for the season, they are likely moving heavy machinery around and not looking out for skinners/skiers and guns/hoses may be pulled out and not fully obvious on trails.  Its a safety issue and if an injury happens and they didn't post this first, the NFS would likely investigate and could limit/pull their operating certificate if they felt the resort was negligent. 

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Nov 3, 2020)

John Hammond on Storm Skiing Podcast this week.  Gives a few insights to what they may be planning expansion-wise as well.  Little tidbits, nothing solid but they have recently been exploring at Mount Ellen above Inverness.  Also talking about a new small pod away from current lift tops that may be a skinning accessible only zone, though no decision on that as of now.  Check it out.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2020)

They also typically don't allow skinning every year prior to opening...this is nothing new. They often cite safety concerns about snow making equipment, grooming equipment, winching, etc being all over the place this time of year. Later on once most terrain is open they can go back to their regular operating plans that allow them to ensure the skinning routes are clear and safe at the defined times. Makes perfect sense to me...


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## Hawk (Nov 3, 2020)

The agreement with the national forest service gives them the rights to the land and and allows them to set the regulations on how and when we can access the land.  This is not news and the policy for years has been no Skiing on the trials while early season snowmaking is in operation.  There is no customer dissatisfaction from any of the regulars about this.  If you want to skin, MRG is 10 minutes up the road and they don't have snowmaking operations.  ;-)


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## Blurski (Nov 3, 2020)

So you are good with not being able to skin to & from your property and don't see it as kick in the nuts?


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## Hawk (Nov 3, 2020)

No I do not.  To be totally honest, I can skin from my property and not have to enter a trail that has mountain ops working snowmaking so it is not an issue.  Also some of us are discrete, smart, respectful of mountain ops and conscious of what is going on.  You can find tons to ski and not be impacting mountain operations.  Usually there is tons to ski without skiing the trails so we don't really take the time to bitch and piss off the mountain.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2020)

machski said:


> John Hammond on Storm Skiing Podcast this week.  Gives a few insights to what they may be planning expansion-wise as well.  Little tidbits, nothing solid but they have recently been exploring at Mount Ellen above Inverness.  Also talking about a new small pod away from current lift tops that may be a skinning accessible only zone, though no decision on that as of now.  Check it out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Link - https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-28-sugarbush-president-and


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## tumbler (Nov 3, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Link - https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-28-sugarbush-president-and



Pic is top of HG not Castlerock...


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## HowieT2 (Nov 4, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Link - https://skiing.substack.com/p/podcast-28-sugarbush-president-and



Did he say something about them building cabins at the LP base???


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## tumbler (Nov 4, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Did he say something about them building cabins at the LP base???



Yes, they are little day rental lodge things for a family or group to rent.  Like a cabana at a resort pool.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 4, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Yes, they are little day rental lodge things for a family or group to rent.  Like a cabana at a resort pool.


where are they?
how much they charging?


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## pinnoke (Nov 4, 2020)

I also equate this to 'luxury' cabanas for rent...likely to be utilized by the 'top 1%' (not his words; my thoughts)


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## djd66 (Nov 4, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> where are they?
> how much they charging?



If you have to ask,... you can't afford it


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## HowieT2 (Nov 4, 2020)

djd66 said:


> If you have to ask,... you can't afford it




I'm cheap as fook but I can see going in on this with a whole bunch of people


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## mister moose (Nov 4, 2020)

djd66 said:


> If you have to ask,... you can't afford it



Look up the cost of a prefab 12x16 garden shed.  I get about $4,500 painted, delivered.  Divide by 14 weekends.  $321 per weekend with the resort not marking it up a penny and magically getting 100% occupancy.  Might be useless next year, so you'd need to recover the cost this year.  Can you beat that production line price with local labor from scratch, and have time to get it done?

No, not cheap.


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## djd66 (Nov 4, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Look up the cost of a prefab 12x16 garden shed.  I get about $4,500 painted, delivered.  Divide by 14 weekends.  $321 per weekend with the resort not marking it up a penny and magically getting 100% occupancy.  Might be useless next year, so you'd need to recover the cost this year.  Can you beat that production line price with local labor from scratch, and have time to get it done?
> 
> No, not cheap.



$321.00 to sit in an extra large unheated outhouse? No thanks


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## Powder Whore (Nov 4, 2020)

Hello all, after a few years of following this forum I finally created a profile. 
 Can you imagine how many snowboardes will be poaching  MRG if there is lift service above Inverness???


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

I think that I heard that they would be more like yurts or something like that?  Not sure.  And of course it would be for people with money.


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## 1dog (Nov 5, 2020)

Powder Whore said:


> Hello all, after a few years of following this forum I finally created a profile.
> Can you imagine how many snowboardes will be poaching  MRG if there is lift service above Inverness???



between NFS permitting and Act 250, among all the other overreaching regulations, unless you're under 30, don't count on it anytime soon.

ski it if enough snow on far skiers right - just left of Ext Woods. 

Its south facing so they'd need to leave trees or tight trails . . . . some good pitch in there. And sure, poaching would occur over to MRG.

'because they could'


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

I been out there a few times. Enough to know it is really not worth it unless you go far enough to make it to the 19th hole.  First off it is really thick with evergreens so skiing and boarding is not ideal.  Secondly people have got lost on that ridge a few times and had a decent slog out after dark.  Be careful and do your research well.


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## smac75 (Nov 5, 2020)

Hi, looking for route advice from NY'ers. We just moved from MA to Saratoga Springs and would love to know your winter routes to Sugarbush. We tried a couple this summer but they didn't seem ideal. I would like to avoid ending with going over the mountain on 117 to MRG if possible. Thanks!


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

Well there are 3 gaps and you have to make your way to one of them to get to rt 100.  Since you do not like Appellation gap.(rt 17) try Middlebury gap (Rt 125) or Brandon Gap (Rt 73)  I would say Middlebury is what you want and then head north on 100.


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

Actually rt 4 to Killington and then north on 100 might be faster.


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## smac75 (Nov 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Actually rt 4 to Killington and then north on 100 might be faster.



Thank you!


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## ducky (Nov 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I been out there a few times. Enough to know it is really not worth it unless you go far enough to make it to the 19th hole.  First off it is really thick with evergreens so skiing and boarding is not ideal.  Secondly people have got lost on that ridge a few times and had a decent slog out after dark.  Be careful and do your research well.



I dropped in from the Glen Ellen Lodge (off the LT roughly 3/4 of the way to MRG from Exterminator) one sunny afternoon and it was a big mistake. This is right in the area we are talking about and it is so dense with low conifers, it is not worth the bushwhacking. If I recall, it was about 45 minutes to hike in and over an hour to get back to the base.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I been out there a few times. Enough to know it is really not worth it unless you go far enough to make it to the 19th hole.  First off it is really thick with evergreens so skiing and boarding is not ideal.  Secondly people have got lost on that ridge a few times and had a decent slog out after dark.  Be careful and do your research well.




There would have to be some tree clearing for sure but the terrain is good.  Having an expert pod above inverness is ideal.  This is obviously years down the road, but I suspect they would start by thinning the woods and clearing a lift line.  Maybe start with skiining access only before installing a lift.
I wonder if they would put the new lift running from the top of inverness or from the base all the way to the top.  personally, I think I'd prefer two lifts but I think the current inverness quad probably will need to be replaced anyway in the next decade or so and two new lifts might be prohibitively expensive.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Actually rt 4 to Killington and then north on 100 might be faster.




This is the best route and least likely to be treacherous.  While the hill on route 4 in killington can be scary, it is an interstate highway, well traveled and gets plowed frequently.  Can't say the same for 125 or 73.  I think in normal conditions, navigation (waze or google maps) will tell you the fastest route is 73 brandon gap, but I've tried it multiple times and never found the time saving to be significant.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 5, 2020)

ducky said:


> I dropped in from the Glen Ellen Lodge (off the LT roughly 3/4 of the way to MRG from Exterminator) one sunny afternoon and it was a big mistake. This is right in the area we are talking about and it is so dense with low conifers, it is not worth the bushwhacking. If I recall, it was about 45 minutes to hike in and over an hour to get back to the base.




The pines are so dense there its not even bushwacking


----------



## mikec142 (Nov 5, 2020)

smac75 said:


> We just moved from MA to Saratoga Springs!



Congrats!  I love Saratoga.  We've spent a bunch of time there over the years and it's our customary rest stop on our way to Burlington or Sugarbush coming from NJ.  I'm sure you already know, but the coffee at Uncommon Grounds is fantastic and the sandwiches at Mrs. London's are excellent.

Although I'm a ways away, I've told my wife, that Saratoga would be a great place to retire.  There's a ton of cultural things.  It's in the ADK's so tons of outdoor activities.  The track in the summer brings in a lot of excitement.  And it's a college town which helps to maintain a youthful feeling.  Gore is exactly one hour away and it's a little over 2 hours to Burlington and Sugarbush.

Congrats on the move.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Well there are 3 gaps and you have to make your way to one of them to get to rt 100.  Since you do not like Appellation gap.(rt 17) try Middlebury gap (Rt 125) or Brandon Gap (Rt 73)  I would say Middlebury is what you want and then head north on 100.



Personally I use the Brandon Gap 95% of the time. I find it is faster than going through Rutland/Killington (even with the hospital bypass shortcut a lot of people use). Only time I'll use the Rt 4 to 100 through Rutland option is if I'm concerned about the weather on the gap. At least with the Mendon Pass area there are VTrans webcams you can use to see road conditions before you get there.


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## kbroderick (Nov 5, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> There would have to be some tree clearing for sure but the terrain is good.  Having an expert pod above inverness is ideal.  This is obviously years down the road, but I suspect they would start by thinning the woods and clearing a lift line.  Maybe start with skiining access only before installing a lift.



Wasn't there a trail pod proposed up there many years ago, and some stuff cut? I seem to recall seeing it on old orthoimagery and then trying to follow it. In hindsight, it would have been a better idea to avoid the old cut, because it had grown in thicker than the surrounding (and more mature) forest.


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## slatham (Nov 5, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Wasn't there a trail pod proposed up there many years ago, and some stuff cut? I seem to recall seeing it on old orthoimagery and then trying to follow it. In hindsight, it would have been a better idea to avoid the old cut, because it had grown in thicker than the surrounding (and more mature) forest.



Correct. Cut and on a trail map for a year or two. Never opened obviously.


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## Powder Whore (Nov 5, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Wasn't there a trail pod proposed up there many years ago, and some stuff cut? I seem to recall seeing it on old orthoimagery and then trying to follow it. In hindsight, it would have been a better idea to avoid the old cut, because it had grown in thicker than the surrounding (and more mature) forest.


if you do a little research on Glen Ellen there Is a decent amount of 
info there.


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Wasn't there a trail pod proposed up there many years ago, and some stuff cut? I seem to recall seeing it on old orthoimagery and then trying to follow it. In hindsight, it would have been a better idea to avoid the old cut, because it had grown in thicker than the surrounding (and more mature) forest.


Yes the new growth is really thick spruce, hemlock and birches.  Also being south facing it gets a ton of sun so the trees grew fast and heathy.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 5, 2020)

I listened to the podcast and John referenced the '95 master plan is that what's incorporated in the '08 vegetation plan?

https://skimap.org/data/205/3535/1590556476.pdf

Only reason I ask is I see there's an area noted as expansion potential (with some sort of new lift) just north of the North Lynx and Summit condo complexes around the end of Shady Lane.  I know that would be a long ways off (and prob not the priority) since I haven't heard anything recently but you guys think that would ever happen or completely off the table?  I know the mtn was doing a bunch of work in there building out the flow mtb terrain.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

SkiTheEast said:


> I listened to the podcast and John referenced the '95 master plan is that what's incorporated in the '08 vegetation plan?
> 
> https://skimap.org/data/205/3535/1590556476.pdf
> 
> Only reason I ask is I see there's an area noted as expansion potential (with some sort of new lift) just north of the North Lynx and Summit condo complexes around the end of Shady Lane.  I know that would be a long ways off (and prob not the priority) since I haven't heard anything recently but you guys think that would ever happen or completely off the table?  I know the mtn was doing a bunch of work in there building out the flow mtb terrain.



I'd say that area is off the table. I think it at least partially falls within the Slide Brook area that they agreed to never develop (although exactly where the boundary is of the area they agreed to never develop I'm not entirely sure). That terrain would also be relatively low elevation especially on the lower portions which makes it less than ideal.


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

I was told by several people at Sugarbush that Les Otten and ASC made a deal with the state and Warren VT.  in order to get the slidebrook lift approved, Les made a deal to never develop that area.  It is full of beech trees and prime bear habitat.  So the state made the deal.  Not sure how true that is but I heard that from more than one person.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd say that area is off the table. I think it at least partially falls within the Slide Brook area that they agreed to never develop (although exactly where the boundary is of the area they agreed to never develop I'm not entirely sure). That terrain would also be relatively low elevation especially on the lower portions which makes it less than ideal.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well.  I have heard about the SB deal...just curious since that doc was from '08 so I just didn't know if they were still eligible to do it or where the boundaries of the agreement are...

Full disclosure - that's around where my condo is so wishfully thinking about whether lift serviced ski-in/ski-off would ever be realistic wayyyy down the line :smile:


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## Hawk (Nov 5, 2020)

I am near there also.  I will say one thing.  If it goes in property values go way up!  ;-)


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

Hah...my condo is near there as well (North Lynx) so it certainly would benefit me too.


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## smac75 (Nov 5, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> This is the best route and least likely to be treacherous.  While the hill on route 4 in killington can be scary, it is an interstate highway, well traveled and gets plowed frequently.  Can't say the same for 125 or 73.  I think in normal conditions, navigation (waze or google maps) will tell you the fastest route is 73 brandon gap, but I've tried it multiple times and never found the time saving to be significant.



Thanks for this helpful info!


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## smac75 (Nov 5, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Congrats!  I love Saratoga.  We've spent a bunch of time there over the years and it's our customary rest stop on our way to Burlington or Sugarbush coming from NJ.  I'm sure you already know, but the coffee at Uncommon Grounds is fantastic and the sandwiches at Mrs. London's are excellent.
> 
> Although I'm a ways away, I've told my wife, that Saratoga would be a great place to retire.  There's a ton of cultural things.  It's in the ADK's so tons of outdoor activities.  The track in the summer brings in a lot of excitement.  And it's a college town which helps to maintain a youthful feeling.  Gore is exactly one hour away and it's a little over 2 hours to Burlington and Sugarbush.
> 
> Congrats on the move.



Thank you! Just settling in and know none of the "gems" yet so thank you for the recommendations. Can't wait to try Gore...everyone around here says good things about it.


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## tumbler (Nov 5, 2020)

I love that pod b/w Castlerock and North Lynx and the one next to lower FIS.  I know, I know, a bunch of stashes in both...


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## shipyardcreek (Nov 5, 2020)

I know about a half dozen routes from the Northway to MRV.  They are all about the same distance and take the same time.  If you are going over Brandon Gap use McConnell Rd. to avoid having to go through Brandon.  If you like beer, Foley Bros. is just to the west of where McConnell Rd. hits 73.  I do try and avoid the 100 to 4 going home because of the Killington traffic.  Do obey the 25 mph speed limits going through the little towns, the cops like to write tickets.


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## slatham (Nov 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd say that area is off the table. I think it at least partially falls within the Slide Brook area that they agreed to never develop (although exactly where the boundary is of the area they agreed to never develop I'm not entirely sure). That terrain would also be relatively low elevation especially on the lower portions which makes it less than ideal.



Except the plan is post Slidebrook so I would say that area and the one above lower FIS are not eliminated by the Slidebrook agreement. Getting ACT 250 and other approvals might be a challenge however.


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## Powder Whore (Nov 5, 2020)

The map that shows the lower fis area is terrifying . 3 trails and a lift off of tumbler? I ski this area frequently. IMO what makes it great is that most of the entrances are off of a bump run & the long flat runout. Both of these factors help keep traffic down . A lift in there will change things for sure.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

Powder Whore said:


> The map that shows the lower fis area is terrifying . 3 trails and a lift off of tumbler? I ski this area frequently. IMO what makes it great is that most of the entrances are off of a bump run & the long flat runout. Both of these factors help keep traffic down . A lift in there will change things for sure.



I wouldn't worry about it. That plan is old and I think it would be hard to justify adding lift serviced lower elevation terrain with no snowmaking. At least above Inverness you have higher elevation terrain so could get by easier without snowmaking.


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## djd66 (Nov 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Hah...my condo is near there as well (North Lynx) so it certainly would benefit me too.



I live in the village as well,... I never understood why they never completed the village trail.  They could have built a bridge or tunnel or a lift at the bottom of the village trail.  I have to believe there are a ton of property owners that would kick in some money to cover the cost of a lift so the 200+ houses/condos could be ski in/ski out.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 5, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I live in the village as well,... I never understood why they never completed the village trail.  They could have built a bridge or tunnel or a lift at the bottom of the village trail.  I have to believe there are a ton of property owners that would kick in some money to cover the cost of a lift so the 200+ houses/condos could be ski in/ski out.



Ha, I've often thought the same thing!  Who knows maybe Alterra will throw us a bone - one can dream!


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## MorningWoods (Nov 5, 2020)

SkiTheEast said:


> Ha, I've often thought the same thing!  Who knows maybe Alterra will throw us a bone - one can dream!



I’m down for that!  Win mentioned that area between NL and Castlerock as well as a potential area. I would be more interested in the area above Inverness though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HowieT2 (Nov 6, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. That plan is old and I think it would be hard to justify adding lift serviced lower elevation terrain with no snowmaking. At least above Inverness you have higher elevation terrain so could get by easier without snowmaking.



Agreed.  
With respect to any expansion, the mt ellen areas are on private land whereas lincoln peak is USFS.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 6, 2020)

MorningWoods said:


> I’m down for that!  Win mentioned that area between NL and Castlerock as well as a potential area. I would be more interested in the area above Inverness though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'd prefer seeing the area between castlerock and north lynx stay just the way it is, thank you.  There is 'nothing to see there.  The terrain is horrible.  It doesnt get any snow.  Some people say there's an old nuclear waste dump in there.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 6, 2020)

That's pretty much the case in any of these expansion areas! Speaking of Slidebrook... are the buses going to run? Would you want to get on that bus? ugh


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## TSQURD (Nov 6, 2020)

Im wondering when/if the lifts are going to run at this point.  no below freezing temps in the 10 day at this point and the mountain is looking awfully green


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 6, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> That's pretty much the case in any of these expansion areas! Speaking of Slidebrook... are the buses going to run? Would you want to get on that bus? ugh



I've been wondering this myself. Maybe they could run the jitney for open air transport when the weather permits? Insurance folks may not love that tho... Or just run the bus 1-way to North when Slide Brook is running. That's like a <5 minute bus ride which doesn't really present any issues if everyone is masked up. 

Or just simply limit capacity, trust folks to take the right precautions, and run the bus as normal.


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## ducky (Nov 6, 2020)

Update from the Gov's press conference today outlining ski resorts' plans with covid...

https://vtdigger.org/2020/11/03/sta...-ski-resort-operations-to-deal-with-covid-19/


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 6, 2020)

With these warm temperatures I’m not quite sure about how they’re going to blow snow on snowball, spring fling, pushover and slowpoke by opening day. Looks like above freezing for the next week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Powder Whore (Nov 6, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> That's pretty much the case in any of these expansion areas! Speaking of Slidebrook... are the buses going to run? Would you want to get on that bus? ugh



I asked JH about this during an online “townhall”. His response was that the busses will be running and will adhere to whatever capacity restrictions the state sets fourth


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## Powder Whore (Nov 6, 2020)

Sets Forth*


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> With these warm temperatures I’m not quite sure about how they’re going to blow snow on snowball, spring fling, pushover and slowpoke by opening day. Looks like above freezing for the next week.



You won't even have snow-making temps up high for at least the next week...Going to be challenging to hit their opening date target with the terrain they want/need unless it gets very cold after next weekend.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2020)

The bus will have a capacity of 15 people and that is the large bus.  Win was saying that if you want to ski slidebrook you had better plan to skin or get picked up. If the Bus is at capacity it will not even stop.   Also that is a road with a house on it and it can not be blocked so parking is very limited.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The bus will have a capacity of 15 people and that is the large bus.  Win was saying that if you want to ski slidebrook you had better plan to skin or get picked up. If the Bus is at capacity it will not even stop.   Also that is a road with a house on it and it can not be blocked so parking is very limited.


and thats why I have a wife and a pickup truck


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> and thats why I have a wife and a pickup truck


my new best friend!  ;-)


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## HowieT2 (Nov 9, 2020)

Hawk said:


> my new best friend!  ;-)


my wife or the pickup?  because if its the former you can have her, the pickup, not so much


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## pinnoke (Nov 10, 2020)

Today's the last day of our beautiful summer weather here in VT. After Wednesday's showers, temps fall to a more seasonal normal range, with nighttime numbers rather marginal for SB's best snowmaking conditions. Perhaps some good 'base-building' production down low. Might Mt. Ops consider opening the top half of the mountain (with downloading Bravo) as in days of yore? I doubt it. So, looking ahead, extended forecast appears to support decent opportunity. Remaining cautiously optimistic for green lights to get our season started ASAP!


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 10, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> Today's the last day of our beautiful summer weather here in VT. After Wednesday's showers, temps fall to a more seasonal normal range, with nighttime numbers rather marginal for SB's best snowmaking conditions. Perhaps some good 'base-building' production down low. Might Mt. Ops consider opening the top half of the mountain (with downloading Bravo) as in days of yore? I doubt it. So, looking ahead, extended forecast appears to support decent opportunity. Remaining cautiously optimistic for green lights to get our season started ASAP!


Originally the forecast predicted warmer nighttime temps, but it just changed and it looks like there's a consistent pattern of cold starting on the 14th. Hopefully it's cold enough and they have enough time to get open on the 21st.


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## tumbler (Nov 10, 2020)

After seeing Solitude (Alterra) postpone their opening date indefinitely after getting pounded with snow has me concerned.  There is also an operations update coming this week from Sugarbush, we'll see what that says...


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 10, 2020)

Delayed opening + all the local mtb trails shutting down on Saturday for Deer hunting = an extra boring stick season.


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## Hawk (Nov 10, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Delayed opening + all the local mtb trails shutting down on Saturday for Deer hunting = an extra boring stick season.


Hunting is not allowed on the mountain.  I guess you could pedal up the work roads and go down the MTB trails?


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## ducky (Nov 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Hunting is not allowed on the mountain.  I guess you could pedal up the work roads and go down the MTB trails?


I believe hunting is allowed on the mountain.


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## Hawk (Nov 11, 2020)

You are not supposed to discharge a fire arm while hunting within 500 feet of buildings or areas that are are occupied.  Given that the mountain is prepping lifts and conducting preseason activities on trails, that would put where the trails are in the 500 foot zone.  Also, if I was a hunter, I would not be hunting around where people and machinery are working.  The chances of seeing deer, moose or bear are greatly diminished.


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## ducky (Nov 11, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You are not supposed to discharge a fire arm while hunting within 500 feet of buildings or areas that are are occupied.  Given that the mountain is prepping lifts and conducting preseason activities on trails, that would put where the trails are in the 500 foot zone.  Also, if I was a hunter, I would not be hunting around where people and machinery are working.  The chances of seeing deer, moose or bear are greatly diminished.


The 500' rule only applies to the creation of a property owner's Safety Zone and must be posted as such. True that most hunters do not hunt at SB but there are some and it's legal. Hunters' rights are pretty strong and it is the culture here. The default rule is that any property that is not posted is open to hunting, unless a designated prohibited WMU. Being as the primary quarry is white tail deer, they are more likely to be found in the lowlands. Grouse are in season through Dec 31, though hunted with shotgun so no worries about stray shots, and they are often at higher elevations.

"A property owner may establish a 500-foot Safety Zone around an occupied dwelling, residence, barn, stable or other building with signs provided by the Fish & Wildlife Department. These signs shall be placed at each corner of the safety zone and no more than 200 feet apart. Shooting is prohibited in the Safety Zone and no wild animal may be taken within it without permission from the owner."

Fwiw, I have a current hunting license and have passed hunter safety in VT. Funny though, I see the most deer right on the roadside, where it is illegal to hunt, and they're clearly not too afraid of vehicles.


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## Nick (Nov 11, 2020)

this thread is 438 pages and 8700 entries long. believe it or not skimrv.com is back up again but I was debating adding in a VT subforum specifically instead of just the skiing forum. thoughts? or we could use tags instead.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2020)

Worth a listen.  John Hammond talks about taking the helm of Sugarbush.  Some teasers--he talks about what Sugarbush was like in 1991 compared to now.  He also talks quite a bit about Slidebrook Express (it isn't going to be removed anytime soon) and he also talks about some future terrain expansion.  Yes, you read that right.









						Podcast #28: Sugarbush President and General Manager John Hammond
					

Listen now (63 min) | The Storm Skiing Podcast is sponsored by Mountain Gazette. The first issue drops in November, and you can get 10 percent off subscriptions with the code “GOHIGHER10” at check-out. Get 10 percent off everything else with the code “EASTCOAST.” Who: John Hammond, President and...




					skiing.substack.com


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## mbedle (Nov 11, 2020)

ducky said:


> The 500' rule only applies to the creation of a property owner's Safety Zone and must be posted as such. True that most hunters do not hunt at SB but there are some and it's legal. Hunters' rights are pretty strong and it is the culture here. The default rule is that any property that is not posted is open to hunting, unless a designated prohibited WMU. Being as the primary quarry is white tail deer, they are more likely to be found in the lowlands. Grouse are in season through Dec 31, though hunted with shotgun so no worries about stray shots, and they are often at higher elevations.
> 
> "A property owner may establish a 500-foot Safety Zone around an occupied dwelling, residence, barn, stable or other building with signs provided by the Fish & Wildlife Department. These signs shall be placed at each corner of the safety zone and no more than 200 feet apart. Shooting is prohibited in the Safety Zone and no wild animal may be taken within it without permission from the owner."
> 
> Fwiw, I have a current hunting license and have passed hunter safety in VT. Funny though, I see the most deer right on the roadside, where it is illegal to hunt, and they're clearly not too afraid of vehicles.


The USDA Forest Service website states that you can not discharge a firearm with 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area. I would think that would cover a lot of the resort considering its a developed recreation site. And the fact that Vermont hunting regulations allow someone to hunt on private property without permission is beyond messed up....


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## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> The USDA Forest Service website states that you can not discharge a firearm with 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area. I would think that would cover a lot of the resort considering its a developed recreation site. And the fact that Vermont hunting regulations allow someone to hunt on private property without permission is beyond messed up....



It is common courtesy to ask permission.  But AFAIK the rule is if it is not posted than it is open to hunting.


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## mbedle (Nov 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> It is common courtesy to ask permission.  But AFAIK the rule is if it is not posted than it is open to hunting.


I know its the rule, but that just seems really messed up. Couldn't see that flying too well down here in PA. Do you know what happens if the owner asks the hunter to leave? Do landowners have the right to kick a hunter off the property, even if it is not posted?


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## ducky (Nov 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I know its the rule, but that just seems really messed up. Couldn't see that flying too well down here in PA. Do you know what happens if the owner asks the hunter to leave? Do landowners have the right to kick a hunter off the property, even if it is not posted?


Not really. Just post the property if you don't want hunters. Most hunters in VT are very respectful and the lands are mostly posted because of the few bad apples out there that ruin it for everyone else. There are like three deer-jackers who are almost solely responsible for all the Posted signs in Warren and none of then are from the Valley.

Btw, Vermont is also an open carry state and you may carry a handgun open or concealed without a permit. Only a federal background check is required when purchasing a firearm. That said, you never see anyone open carrying other than in the woods sometimes. 

Ironically, it is perfectly legal to have a loaded handgun on the dashboard or seat of your car (if you get  pulled over), however, it is not legal to carry a loaded long gun (rifle or shotgun) in a vehicle or ATV. This law is to prevent "truck hunting" or hunting from the road.


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## kbroderick (Nov 12, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I know its the rule, but that just seems really messed up. Couldn't see that flying too well down here in PA. Do you know what happens if the owner asks the hunter to leave? Do landowners have the right to kick a hunter off the property, even if it is not posted?


Kindly don't Pennsylvania Vermont.

Vermont has (state) constitutional protection for the right to hunt, and the history to go with that. Hunters are required to vacate a property if asked to do so by the owner, and—as has been said—it sure seems like more are respectful than not.

For those of us who enjoy outdoor recreation, that strong traditional of public access to private lands is important. Sadly, the number of posted signs going up does seem to regularly increase, even if not all of them are proper postings (to have legal weight, signs must be signed and dated annually by the landowner; they must be hung at corners and across property boundaries within a certain distance, which the Internet says is 400 feet; they must be at least 8.5x11 inches with high-contrast text; and the posting must then be registered with the town clerk).


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## flakeydog (Nov 12, 2020)

Perhaps not knowing the laws and traditions, many move in from other areas and simply post their property by default, thinking they have to for liability protection.  Vermont actually has very favorable liability protection for land owners (by design) to keep lands open and accessible for recreation.  Posting property does not enhance your liability protection.

Here is a blurb from a VT Fish and Wildlife website on land use:
_Liability Protection_​_Vermont's landowner liability statutes are designed to encourage public access by protecting you from liability.

Provided that you do not charge a fee, you are generally not liable for any property damage or personal injury to a person who uses your property for recreation._

_Under 12 V.S.A. §5793, a landowner is not liable for property damage or personal injury for the recreational use of their property, unless the damage or injury is the result of the intentional, willful, or wanton misconduct or gross negligence on the part of the landowner._
_Landowner liability increases if a fee or some other consideration is required for the use of the property, since a "higher level of care" (responsibility) is owed to recreationists._
_Posting Does Not Affect Liability_​_The landowner is protected whether or not the land is posted._


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## 1dog (Nov 12, 2020)

Nick said:


> this thread is 438 pages and 8700 entries long. believe it or not skimrv.com is back up again but I was debating adding in a VT subforum specifically instead of just the skiing forum. thoughts? or we could use tags instead.


All in one place Nick seems 'betterer' - thx for the work either way


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## 1dog (Nov 12, 2020)

No Quad Passes this year? I guess they believe it wouldn't sell with all the uncertainty, and/or the new company didn't want to offer it. I would generally buy 3 or four paks for customers, spouse, etc.
Estimate I  have been stuck with as many as 3 or 4 in April a few years too.


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## cdskier (Nov 12, 2020)

1dog said:


> No Quad Passes this year? I guess they believe it wouldn't sell with all the uncertainty, and/or the new company didn't want to offer it. I would generally buy 3 or four paks for customers, spouse, etc.
> Estimate I  have been stuck with as many as 3 or 4 in April a few years too.


No...the reason was they're trying to limit capacity without putting restrictions on pass-holders. So they're limiting (or eliminating) all day ticket products that aren't for a specific date. Without having a big unknown of what quad pack holders are going to show up what day, they have more control as now there are pretty much only 2 main variables...pass-holders (which you can estimate from historical data to some degree) and day tickets (which you can easily limit and control by selling them all online in advance).


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## WWF-VT (Nov 13, 2020)

Looks like it's either move to VT or skip skiing this season:

*Visiting Sugarbush Resort*
ALL guests coming to ski at Sugarbush must sign a one-time attestation with the state of Vermont. *More information on how to do this is forthcoming*.

Anyone entering the state of Vermont from another state must quarantine, either prior to arrival at their own home or once they reach Vermont, before coming to Sugarbush. https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel.

Residents of other states must adhere to the quarantine guidelines:

Travelers arriving to Vermont in a personal vehicle must complete either a 14-day quarantine or a 7-day quarantine followed by a negative test in their home state and enter Vermont without further quarantine restrictions.

Travelers arriving to Vermont who have not completed a pre-arrival quarantine must complete either a 14-day quarantine or a 7-day quarantine followed by a negative test in a Vermont lodging establishment or with friends and family (travelers must stay in their quarantine location for the duration of quarantine other than to travel to and from a test site).


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## tumbler (Nov 13, 2020)

I think a lot of people will be moving up.  The real estate market is out of control, stuff doesn't even last 2 days, low priced, high priced, doesn't matter.  If you were ever thinking about selling this is the time!


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## slatham (Nov 13, 2020)

cdskier said:


> No...the reason was they're trying to limit capacity without putting restrictions on pass-holders. So they're limiting (or eliminating) all day ticket products that aren't for a specific date. Without having a big unknown of what quad pack holders are going to show up what day, they have more control as now there are pretty much only 2 main variables...pass-holders (which you can estimate from historical data to some degree) and day tickets (which you can easily limit and control by selling them all online in advance).


Agreed, but with added motivation to get top dollar for any day tickets sold. This is the season of no discounts.


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think a lot of people will be moving up.  The real estate market is out of control, stuff doesn't even last 2 days, low priced, high priced, doesn't matter.  If you were ever thinking about selling this is the time!



Yep. We pulled the trigger on a seasonal rental and have been living here since September. The market was moving so quickly we weren't even able to come visit the place first..after we struck out twice we ended up renting our current place site unseen.


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 13, 2020)

Gov. Scott's latest Executive Order doesn't do many favors for skiers. 2 things that stick out:



> Multiple Household Social Gatherings Suspended. Attendance at all public and private social, recreational and entertainment gatherings, indoor and outdoor, including large social gatherings incidental to ceremonies, holiday gatherings, parties and celebrations, shall be limited to participation with only members of a single household. For the sake of clarity, nothing in this Order prohibits the gathering of members living in the same residence. Individuals who live alone may gather with members of their immediate family residing in a different household.


and


> Contact Log. All restaurants and other public accommodations which host organized non-essential activities shall maintain an easily accessible, legible log of all employees, customers, members and guests and their contact information, including name, address, phone number and email address for 30 days in the event contact tracing is required by VDH. For the sake of clarity, this requirement applies to all employees and all guests in every party.



So this means no hosting of guests for folks who live in the valley for guests who meet the 2-Week, or more realistic, 1 Week+Test Quarantine procedures. And also that the resort will be forced to collect contact information for every person who rides the lifts on a given day. The former is just a buzzkill but yet another hit for local biz, but unless pass scans can be used to facilitate contract tracing the latter just seems damn near impossible. Woof. Hopefully this is just to get us thru Thanksgiving and get cases back where the were prior to the weather turning. 

Must stay f*cking positive!


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2020)

slatham said:


> Agreed, but with added motivation to get top dollar for any day tickets sold. This is the season of no discounts.


Definitely. Pretty much the only "discounts" you see will be whatever you get off by purchasing a day ticket online through a resort's website in advance. They keep saying "the further you book in advance, the more you save", although I'm sure no matter what the discounts are still substantially less than last year (or the % off may be the same, but the base pre-discount price will be much higher).

Of course this is assuming we even have a ski season. I'm far less optimistic than I was during the summer.


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## tumbler (Nov 13, 2020)

I'm far less optimistic than I was this morning about having a season.  This will not be lifted by Thanksgiving, judging by Scott's track record once he puts something in place it stays in place for a long time.


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 13, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I'm far less optimistic than I was this morning about having a season.  This will not be lifted by Thanksgiving, judging by Scott's track record once he puts something in place it stays in place for a long time.


Yup. This latest Executive Order "shall continue in full force and effect until midnight on December 15, 2020". Even if the VT case load takes a nose-dive for the better I don't see how this doesn't get extended thru Jan 15 w/ the Holidays on the horizon. Glad my new touring bindings arrived in the mail today... Might have to blow the tax return on xc skis and a fat bike too. Bleh.

The state needs to address their plans and thresholds for the ski industry.


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## pinnoke (Nov 16, 2020)

Monitoring Sugarbush's (windy) weather forecast and State protocols to try to determine if they'll indeed open as scheduled is like watching a Pats football game...you just don't know what's going to happen!!


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## Hawk (Nov 16, 2020)

So based on what they are saying, Share houses with people coming up from all different locations are basically screwed.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 16, 2020)

They have attempted to put some snow down on upper Jester with some isolated efforts a little lower. Same with Elbow at North. We had heavy rain last night. The ground is soft and not frozen even at higher elevations. Today it is above freezing and very windy.

The new Covid guidelines from Scott a very restrictive and I fear that it will reduce snow making efforts. I do not think that Killington has done much better, their opening day was supposed to be last Saturday


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 16, 2020)

Castlerockrisk said:


> They have attempted to put some snow down on upper Jester with some isolated efforts a little lower. Same with Elbow at North. We had heavy rain last night. The ground is soft and not frozen even at higher elevations. Today it is above freezing and very windy.
> 
> The new Covid guidelines from Scott a very restrictive and I fear that it will reduce snow making efforts. I do not think that Killington has done much better, their opening day was supposed to be last Saturday


I think the lack of snowmaking has really been more about temperatures and weather conditions and not about the guidelines that the gov. put out. After all most areas making snow or trying to make snow right now are just trying to get a few trails open which isn’t a huge risk for mountains if it fails, but a big reward with opening day profits. I’d predict that Mt. Snow can open this weekend since they have optimal temps for snowmaking while Killington and Sugarbush will have to postpone their opening another week. There’s no point in rushing in such an unusual season.


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think the lack of snowmaking has really been more about temperatures and weather conditions and not about the guidelines that the gov. put out. After all most areas making snow or trying to make snow right now are just trying to get a few trails open which isn’t a huge risk for mountains if it fails, but a big reward with opening day profits. I’d predict that Mt. Snow can open this weekend since they have optimal temps for snowmaking while Killington and Sugarbush will have to postpone their opening another week. There’s no point in rushing in such an unusual season.


I agree with your first part...but what makes you say that Mt Snow has better temps than Killington? They both have powerful snowmaking systems and K has an elevation advantage which would help them with temps more-so than Mt Snow...


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 16, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think the lack of snowmaking has really been more about temperatures and weather conditions and not about the guidelines that the gov. put out. After all most areas making snow or trying to make snow right now are just trying to get a few trails open which isn’t a huge risk for mountains if it fails, but a big reward with opening day profits. I’d predict that Mt. Snow can open this weekend since they have optimal temps for snowmaking while Killington and Sugarbush will have to postpone their opening another week. There’s no point in rushing in such an unusual season.


Profits? There are no profits for ski areas this year. They have our money, are not selling day tickets, restaurants limited and bars are closed. I believe that 75% of skier traffic at any given mountain is from out of state. If out of staters adhere to the law, why would a ski area open for the extremely limited amount of people that can come out and play. There is really no incentive for anyone to make snow this season.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 16, 2020)

Mt. Snow’s forecast shows a consistant pattern of colder weather compared to Killington and Sugarbush. Even though K has an elevation advantage, they won’t be able to make snow enough snow across the mountain with limited time this week. Not sure about Mt. Snow either but if I had to guess, they have a bit better of a chance of opening. To shredmonkey’s point, he’s right about the profit already being there with pass sales, but you can’t sell passes and then open on only natural snow on a much later date than normal. They don’t have to rush, but they should give an attempt to open.


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## djd66 (Nov 16, 2020)

There definitely will be no profits this year and certainly not on opening day.


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Mt. Snow’s forecast shows a consistant pattern of colder weather compared to Killington and Sugarbush. Even though K has an elevation advantage, they won’t be able to make snow enough snow across the mountain with limited time this week. Not sure about Mt. Snow either but if I had to guess, they have a bit better of a chance of opening. To shredmonkey’s point, he’s right about the profit already being there with pass sales, but you can’t sell passes and then open on only natural snow on a much later date than normal. They don’t have to rush, but they should give an attempt to open.


Still not seeing whatever you're seeing. I just looked at NWS and see temps within a degree or two of each other at Mt Snow and K through Friday night. In some cases K is colder and in some cases Mt Snow is. Overall it averages out pretty close. And I still think the elevation advantage helps K.

Another factor...does Mt Snow push it in marginal temps? K will (especially using their old air hog guns). Does Mt Snow use those style guns or are they only using all newer low-E guns? Is Mt Snow blowing snow right now? I don't know if there's a webcam view anywhere. The one on their website doesn't seem to work.

Honestly I don't really care who opens when right now. I'm in no rush to get out there as I want better clarity on what's going to happen this year. Unless I move up to VT for the winter, I don't see how the current rules would allow me to make it up there much.


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## skiur (Nov 16, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Mt. Snow’s forecast shows a consistant pattern of colder weather compared to Killington and Sugarbush. Even though K has an elevation advantage, they won’t be able to make snow enough snow across the mountain with limited time this week. Not sure about Mt. Snow either but if I had to guess, they have a bit better of a chance of opening. To shredmonkey’s point, he’s right about the profit already being there with pass sales, but you can’t sell passes and then open on only natural snow on a much later date than normal. They don’t have to rush, but they should give an attempt to open.








						National Weather Service
					






					forecast.weather.gov
				




This killingtons forecast for the week at 3500'.  They could open this weekend if they wanted to with the k1, north ridge quad and snowdon triple.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 16, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Still not seeing whatever you're seeing. I just looked at NWS and see temps within a degree or two of each other at Mt Snow and K through Friday night. In some cases K is colder and in some cases Mt Snow is. Overall it averages out pretty close. And I still think the elevation advantage helps K.
> 
> Another factor...does Mt Snow push it in marginal temps? K will (especially using their old air hog guns). Does Mt Snow use those style guns or are they only using all newer low-E guns? Is Mt Snow blowing snow right now? I don't know if there's a webcam view anywhere. The one on their website doesn't seem to work.
> 
> Honestly I don't really care who opens when right now. I'm in no rush to get out there as I want better clarity on what's going to happen this year. Unless I move up to VT for the winter, I don't see how the current rules would allow me to make it up there much.


You’re right. Temps have warmed up since I last checked. They were below freezing/at freezing for 3 days straight.


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## CastlerockMRV (Nov 16, 2020)

Snowing here at the mountain now. 3-4" expected thru tomorrow. Temps look good for snowmaking the next 2 days as well. Not sure if it will be enough tho.


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## Hawk (Nov 16, 2020)

Nope.  Just basing it on prior years.


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## pinnoke (Nov 16, 2020)

UGH

From today's snow report update:

Given the mild temperatures we have seen recently, *our original projected Opening Day of Saturday, November 21st for Lincoln Peak has been delayed*. Currently, we are looking at later this month for an opening, weather dependent, and will update you as soon as we have more clarity.


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> UGH
> 
> From today's snow report update:
> 
> Given the mild temperatures we have seen recently, *our original projected Opening Day of Saturday, November 21st for Lincoln Peak has been delayed*. Currently, we are looking at later this month for an opening, weather dependent, and will update you as soon as we have more clarity.



Not one bit surprised. Even later this month could be a struggle to get the bottom of the mountain open given the weather patterns at the moment.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 16, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> UGH
> 
> From today's snow report update:
> 
> Given the mild temperatures we have seen recently, *our original projected Opening Day of Saturday, November 21st for Lincoln Peak has been delayed*. Currently, we are looking at later this month for an opening, weather dependent, and will update you as soon as we have more clarity.


Makes total sense considering the temperatures they’re working with. Hopefully the following weekend.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 16, 2020)

i guess the upside of all of this is that I can look at these bad snow reports and just ... not care.


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## gorgonzola (Nov 17, 2020)

My daughter has a 4-pack of passes from a spring trip she had planned  for last season that didn't happen due to the 'rona. It doesn't look like she'll be able to use them this season either as 'bush is only giving her until 12/24, sucks as she is a health care worker in pa that sb won't give her until the end of the season to try to use them. Seems goofy to me as they already have her money, why wouldn't they extend them in hopes she may be able to use them and spend more?
I assume they are transferable, pm me if anyone is interested in them


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2020)

gorgonzola said:


> My daughter has a 4-pack of passes from a spring trip she had planned  for last season that didn't happen due to the 'rona. It doesn't look like she'll be able to use them this season either as 'bush is only giving her until 12/24, sucks as she is a health care worker in pa that sb won't give her until the end of the season to try to use them. Seems goofy to me as they already have her money, why wouldn't they extend them in hopes she may be able to use them and spend more?
> I assume they are transferable, pm me if anyone is interested in them



I'm not sure how it works this year with the leftover ones, but historically the owner/purchaser of the quad pack had to actually be the one to redeem them at the window (although they could then subsequently give them to whoever they wanted to). So they were transferable to a point.

That said, in this particular situation have you tried reaching out to them directly to see if they could do anything? With the current current travel restrictions from the state, they really should be a bit more lenient if people aren't able to "legally" get there. I understand the original logic in why they didn't want to let them be used all season, but that decision was announced long before most people expected there to still be major issues by this point.


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## mikec142 (Nov 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure how it works this year with the leftover ones, but historically the owner/purchaser of the quad pack had to actually be the one to redeem them at the window (although they could then subsequently give them to whoever they wanted to). So they were transferable to a point.
> 
> That said, in this particular situation have you tried reaching out to them directly to see if they could do anything? With the current current travel restrictions from the state, they really should be a bit more lenient if people aren't able to "legally" get there. I understand the original logic in why they didn't want to let them be used all season, but that decision was announced long before most people expected there to still be major issues by this point.


Not sure if it's the case for everyone, but for the past two years, the quad packs get mailed to you in advance.  They look like the reloadable cards you get for the SugarXpress.  If so, easily transferable.


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## witchway (Nov 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure how it works this year with the leftover ones, but historically the owner/purchaser of the quad pack had to actually be the one to redeem them at the window (although they could then subsequently give them to whoever they wanted to). So they were transferable to a point.
> 
> That said, in this particular situation have you tried reaching out to them directly to see if they could do anything? With the current current travel restrictions from the state, they really should be a bit more lenient if people aren't able to "legally" get there. I understand the original logic in why they didn't want to let them be used all season, but that decision was announced long before most people expected there to still be major issues by this point.


I wouldn't expect much help. I know of a college senior that skied only one day last year ( March 14th) the day they shut down for covid. He was planning to ski that spring after finishing classes and they wouldn't do anything for him.


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## djd66 (Nov 17, 2020)

gorgonzola said:


> My daughter has a 4-pack of passes from a spring trip she had planned  for last season that didn't happen due to the 'rona. It doesn't look like she'll be able to use them this season either as 'bush is only giving her until 12/24, sucks as she is a health care worker in pa that sb won't give her until the end of the season to try to use them. Seems goofy to me as they already have her money, why wouldn't they extend them in hopes she may be able to use them and spend more?
> I assume they are transferable, pm me if anyone is interested in them


I feel bad for your daughter, but they easily could have been shut down early due to a massive meltdown.  That is the chance you take when you buy quad packs at a discount and don't use them during the winter season.


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## SLyardsale (Nov 17, 2020)

I have a quad pack as well and had scheduled my trip the week of 3/17 well in advance.  Indeed, they announced you could use em this year until 12/24.  They keep sending updates that info about how to redeem them will be forthcoming - but nothing yet.


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## hovercraft (Nov 17, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I feel bad for your daughter, but they easily could have been shut down early due to a massive meltdown.  That is the chance you take when you buy quad packs at a discount and don't use them during the winter season.


Stop,  only giving people till 12/24 to use the quad pack is total BS.  That is horrible guest service.  They won’t even open to Thanksgiving weekend so you think 4 weeks to use the quad pack is reasonable?


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> Stop,  only giving people till 12/24 to use the quad pack is total BS.  That is horrible guest service.  They won’t even open to Thanksgiving weekend so you think 4 weeks to use the quad pack is reasonable?



To be fair, people had about 17 weeks last year to use them and only had 6 or so weeks left in the season at the point they closed (if you wanted to take the risk that the snow would last that long). And let's be honest...most people last year that still had quad packs left by mid-March were probably planning to use them within the next few weeks after that. I doubt very many are typically saved until late April.

Personally I probably would have allowed leftover quad packs from last year to be used this year anytime from mid-March on to make it truly comparable. But at the same time I wouldn't have found requiring them to be used by 12/24 if they opened on time and things were normal to be unreasonable. With a delayed opening and covid still going strong, I can see the argument that maybe they should reconsider (And who knows...maybe they still will. The current decision being talked about was made quite a while ago. And with everything else going on right now revisiting that decision probably hasn't exactly been a priority up to this point).


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## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> To be fair, people had about 17 weeks last year to use them and only had 6 or so weeks left in the season at the point they closed (if you wanted to take the risk that the snow would last that long). And let's be honest...most people last year that still had quad packs left by mid-March were probably planning to use them within the next few weeks after that. I doubt very many are typically saved until late April.
> 
> Personally I probably would have allowed leftover quad packs from last year to be used this year anytime from mid-March on to make it truly comparable. But at the same time I wouldn't have found requiring them to be used by 12/24 if they opened on time and things were normal to be unreasonable. With a delayed opening and covid still going strong, I can see the argument that maybe they should reconsider (And who knows...maybe they still will. The current decision being talked about was made quite a while ago. And with everything else going on right now revisiting that decision probably hasn't exactly been a priority up to this point).


The intent when buying the quad is you get to use them for the whole season whenever you want.  The season wasn’t cut sure for a massive heatwave.  It wouldn’t hurt them to let you use them for the whole season this year.  Black out the typical busy holiday weekends which is reasonable.  It doesn’t cost them anything except good PR.   Just my two cents......


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## ducky (Nov 18, 2020)

Each year folks try to unload Quad Packs (and the MRG equivalent) late-season on Front Porch Forum at discounted prices, some even free as April arrives. My guess is they will extend the expiration date. As CD said, they're kinds busy.

Due to the recent spike here (of around 100 new cases a day, 40% in the MRV's Washington County), Vermonters are now on CT's quarantine list! It took 88 days to reach 1,000, 142 days to reach 2,000, and just 23 days to reach 3,000. Gov Scott and his excellent team are scrambling to "put out the fires" with contact tracing and cross-family social gathering restrictions. He did say most new cases were not caused by out-of-state visitors but by Vermonters dropping their guard over Halloween; pandemic fatigue or over-confidence, bit of both maybe. Hopefully, we'll all be skiing soon. On a personal note, we cancelled Thanksgiving dinner with our in-laws who live in Warren and have not left the state.

Over 150 Valley homes have sold this year, a huge number, and many second-homes are occupied so expect to see a spike in midweek skiing vs weekends. Many of these buyers are younger families so this bodes well for the future, both for schools and the local economy.


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## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

I sent an email to Sugarbush yesterday about the quad packs asking what the thought process was on the end date of the 24th.  Here is their response.  Case closed environmentally unaware!  

“Your Quad Pack is can be redeemed until December 24th 2020. We are currently making and receiving snow and opening day is just around the corner.”


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## gorgonzola (Nov 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure how it works this year with the leftover ones, but historically the owner/purchaser of the quad pack had to actually be the one to redeem them at the window (although they could then subsequently give them to whoever they wanted to). So they were transferable to a point.
> 
> That said, in this particular situation have you tried reaching out to them directly to see if they could do anything? With the current current travel restrictions from the state, they really should be a bit more lenient if people aren't able to "legally" get there. I understand the original logic in why they didn't want to let them be used all season, but that decision was announced long before most people expected there to still be major issues by this point.


yea she's emailed them a few times and gotten a surprisingly snarky response each time.  I told her to try calling... humans are usually not so douchey face to face  or on the phone

Just seems like a really shitty move on their part, bad customer relations and turning away potential future $ in a potentially disasterous year?!?!? 
This kind of thing sticks with people and as a young adult starting a family she'll probably look elsewhere for future trips


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2020)

gorgonzola said:


> yea she's emailed them a few times and gotten a surprisingly snarky response each time.  I told her to try calling... humans are usually not so douchey face to face  or on the phone
> 
> Just seems like a really shitty move on their part, bad customer relations and turning away potential future $ in a potentially disasterous year?!?!?
> This kind of thing sticks with people and as a young adult starting a family she'll probably look elsewhere for future trips



Well I think one other question is how does this compare to what other resorts are doing with this situation? I know Magic previously stated they would do pretty much exactly what I thought was a good idea (allow unused 4-packs to be used from 3/15 this year onwards). Although Magic's end of season is usually much earlier than SB so I wouldn't think there would be too many of those left at Magic. Any unused Ski VT passes from last year were simply told "too bad". K gave vouchers of the value of any unused K-tickets which was pretty nice (although I can't recall if they had a similar product available this season, so it may not really be an even exchange for a day of skiing this coming season and could still end up costing someone to use it). Who else sold pre-paid non-date specific lift tickets and how did they handle unused ones?


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

gorgonzola said:


> yea she's emailed them a few times and gotten a surprisingly snarky response each time.  I told her to try calling... humans are usually not so douchey face to face  or on the phone
> 
> Just seems like a really shitty move on their part, bad customer relations and turning away potential future $ in a potentially disasterous year?!?!?
> This kind of thing sticks with people and as a young adult starting a family she'll probably look elsewhere for future trips


Agreed. We bought two sets of Quad packs to ski March 14 and 15. Conditions were decent. We were a bit on the fence about skiing because we were just learning about the virus. Way before masks, etc.
Received an email from Winn on the 13th encouraging everyone to come up (the “I’ll be skiing with my grandkids” email). We ski’d the14th and then they closed that night leaving us with the unused Quad pack (about $400 - I forget the actual amount).

We are from Mass, considered skiing Thanksgiving but with the travel restrictions and the fact that they are not open (not to mention spending another grand on lodging), I am pretty upset that Sugarbush won’t extend the 12/24 deadline. I’ve called and gotten no where. I’ve even considered some type of small claims action just to get a rational explanation for the heist 

Happy to unload at a fraction if anyone is looking for a pre-12/24 deal.


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> To be fair, people had about 17 weeks last year to use them and only had 6 or so weeks left in the season at the point they closed (if you wanted to take the risk that the snow would last that long). And let's be honest...most people last year that still had quad packs left by mid-March were probably planning to use them within the next few weeks after that. I doubt very many are typically saved until late April.
> 
> Personally I probably would have allowed leftover quad packs from last year to be used this year anytime from mid-March on to make it truly comparable. But at the same time I wouldn't have found requiring them to be used by 12/24 if they opened on time and things were normal to be unreasonable. With a delayed opening and covid still going strong, I can see the argument that maybe they should reconsider (And who knows...maybe they still will. The current decision being talked about was made quite a while ago. And with everything else going on right now revisiting that decision probably hasn't exactly been a priority up to this point).


Right...but I bought them specifically for the weekend of March 14th. Agree with the rest of your statement though.


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## djd66 (Nov 18, 2020)

Personally, I buy season passes and spent close to $4000 on them.  My season got cut short too and I am not able to use my 2020 pass for the 2021 season.  I don't get the idea of buying 4 packs to use at the end of March - when there is a high probability of the season being cut short or limited skiing. Why wouldn't you just buy a spring pass for $200?


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## WWF-VT (Nov 18, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> Stop,  only giving people till 12/24 to use the quad pack is total BS.  That is horrible guest service.  They won’t even open to Thanksgiving weekend so you think 4 weeks to use the quad pack is reasonable?



Yes that's reasonable.  Sugarbush sold Quad Packs in November with the expectation that they would be used last season.  You had from opening day on November 23rd to March 14th when the mountain closed to use the transferable, unrestricted tickets.  It's a good gesture to extend the use of Quad Packs until 12/24.


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Personally, I buy season passes and spent close to $4000 on them.  My season got cut short too and I am not able to use my 2020 pass for the 2021 season.  I don't get the idea of buying 4 packs to use at the end of March - when there is a high probability of the season being cut short or limited skiing. Why wouldn't you just buy a spring pass for $200?


Mid-March, not end of. At any rate, we have skiid the ‘Bush that weekend for 20 years and have never had a problem. No reason to buy a more expensive spring pass as we ski that one weekend and are from out if state. This wasn’t a heat wave and there was never a ‘high chance’ of the season being cut short. They historically close in May


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## gorgonzola (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> Mid-March, not end of. At any rate, we have skiid the ‘Bush that weekend for 20 years and have never had a problem. No reason to buy a more expensive spring pass as we ski that one weekend and are from out if state. This wasn’t a heat wave and there was never a ‘high chance’ of the season being cut short.


^ this, she and her husband  have been going with a group of friends on or around St. Patty's for the last few years. I joined them two years ago and ski'd a nice storm (damn I need to lower those elbows!)


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## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2020)

What does it mean that the quad packs need to be redeemed by 12/24?  Can the tickets be used after 12/24?

In fairness, this is going to be a challenging season for all ski resorts to say the least.  Personally, I have tickets left over from last season and I don't think I had any right to expect they would honor those tickets this season at all.  Certainly not their fault the mountain closed early.


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

gorgonzola said:


> ^ this, she and her husband  have been going with a group of friends on or around St. Patty's for the last few years. I joined them two years ago and ski'd a nice storm (damn I need to lower those elbows!)


Yep - St Patty’s day tradition for us, too.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 18, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> What does it mean that the quad packs need to be redeemed by 12/24?  Can the tickets be used after 12/24?
> 
> In fairness, this is going to be a challenging season for all ski resorts to say the least.  Personally, I have tickets left over from last season and I don't think I had any right to expect they would honor those tickets this season at all.  Certainly not their fault the mountain closed early.




it means they need to be used by 12/24. they only carried over for early season pre x-mas.

i agree that this is more than fair. global pandemic shut the season down. you win some you lose some. had all year to use the tickets.

i prefer magic's policy tho, of the tickets becoming valid after 3/14. my magic quad pack was destined for one of the last weekends in march, so it also was unused. this year i have a magic sunday pass in my quiver, and an indy pass, and 4 late season magic any-days, so i can string together at least 6 fully magic weekends, which is nice.

i think magic and sugarbush are both being reasonable, but it would also be reasonable for them to say 'sorry no luck'


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it means they need to be used by 12/24. they only carried over for early season pre x-mas.
> 
> i agree that this is more than fair. global pandemic shut the season down. you win some you lose some. had all year to use the tickets.
> 
> ...


I don’t know if it’s fair. We bought quad passes specifically for March 14 and 15. They closed weeks earlier than usual, have been closed for the past 249 days (since March 15), are still closed and yet we only have 36 days until the quad passes expire. On top of that, Winn sent us all an email on March 13th encouraging us to buy tickets. If I was a local, OK - might be able to squeeze a day in December but we are not (plus 14 day quarantines).


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 18, 2020)

it is fair. you had november to march to use the tickets before an act of god shut down the world. its courteous of them to accept them at any point in 20-21


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 18, 2020)

With this colder weather today and tomorrow it would make sense if Sugarbush made snow on Spring Fling. Obviously there’s no need to rush this season, but I figured they’d try to blow a bit on it while they can.


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it is fair. you had november to march to use the tickets before an act of god shut down the world. its courteous of them to accept them at any point in 20-21


I didn’t plan to use them until annual St Patrick’s Day ski trip on March 14 and 15.  Winn sent us the attached email on March 13th confirming closing date of May 2nd


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> I didn’t buy them until Winn sent us the attached email on March 13th confirming closing date of May 2nd  View attachment 42581


Huh? There's no way you bought "Quad pack" tickets on March 13th. They're only for sale through the end of November.


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it is fair. you had november to march to use the tickets before an act of god shut down the world. its courteous of them to accept them at any point in 20-21





cdskier said:


> Huh?


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> With this colder weather today and tomorrow it would make sense if Sugarbush made snow on Spring Fling. Obviously there’s no need to rush this season, but I figured they’d try to blow a bit on it while they can.



I'm a bit surprised they don't have guns going yet down low from what I can see on the base area webcams. I would have thought as well that they would be taking advantage of these lower mountain cold temps while they have them. I know they've been making snow on the upper mountain recently, but that doesn't help the opening day goal.


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## gorgonzola (Nov 18, 2020)

I have no interest in debating fairness,  if there is such a thing in a pandemic. I made my points from a business and PR perspective. 
We all have the ability to do the right thing and Sugarbush dropped the ball on this one

Anyways if anyone can use these pm me an offer, she just wants to move on and cut her losses at this point


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## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

Edited. I didn’t plan to use them until that weekend. Anyway, don’t want to argue with locals. Just think it’s a bit disingenuous and poor business.  Take care!!

I’ve attached Win’s email from March 13th, two days before the closed for the season.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> I didn’t plan to use them until annual St Patrick’s Day ski trip on March 14 and 15.  Winn sent us the attached email on March 13th confirming closing date of May 2nd  View attachment 42581


C'mon, you can't really blame anyone for the way shit went down in March.  Maybe I'm interpreting what youre saying incorrectly, but it sounds like you feel like Win "promised" you the mountain would be open as usual, and that he tricked you into not using your tickets.  I don't know where you were, but where I was in NY, no one knew what was going to happen from one day to the next.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> Edited. I didn’t plan to use them until that weekend. Anyway, don’t want to argue with locals. Just think it’s a bit disingenuous and poor business.  Take care!!
> 
> I’ve attached Win’s email from March 13th, two days before the closed for the season.


What locals? I think ducky is the only local that's been posting on this topic about the quad packs so far...

And what does what was said on March 13th have to do with what happened on March 15th? This was an incredibly unique and fluid situation. As of that Saturday night when I went out to dinner they were fully expecting to open the next day (groomers were out working the first shift already). While I was having dinner word came out that Alterra was shutting things down and overruled the local decisions to stay open. By the time I finished dinner, all the groomers had been called back in and basically stopped work mid-shift.

There's a lot of passholders that lost out on part of the season as well. There's a lot of employees and local businesses around the mountains that suddenly had no work and had to shut down. Everyone was impacted by this. I doubt anyone expected us to still have all these issues now. No one expected the weather to not cooperate to get enough snow down in November. Quad pack holders are making it sound like they're the only ones that lost out and are somehow owed more than what was offered. Yes, it sucks. But this is an unprecedented situation.


----------



## mikec142 (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> I don’t know if it’s fair. We bought quad passes specifically for March 14 and 15. They closed weeks earlier than usual, have been closed for the past 249 days (since March 15), are still closed and yet we only have 36 days until the quad passes expire. On top of that, Winn sent us all an email on March 13th encouraging us to buy tickets. If I was a local, OK - might be able to squeeze a day in December but we are not (plus 14 day quarantines).


I feel for you.  I have one unused quad pack ticket from last year.  I also have one unused one from the year before as well.  I also have 3 days of unused Ski VT tickets from last year. 

But I believe that you are conflating two issue.  First is you bought quad packs sometime from September to November.  Win's email that you posted gave the best information that he had at the time.  If you had bought day tix for the weekend of 3/14-15 they would have been refunded if you couldn't use them.  It's two separate issues.  Getting credit for unused quad packs vs. getting a refund for unused day tix purchased after his email.  You had from opening day until March 14th  to use the quad pack tix.  

My family and I knew things were getting weird in late February.  But we still went about our days as normally as possible.  We went out to dinner (ate inside) on March 13th with two other couples.  Our kids went to indoor parties with their friends on March 14th while we had friends over for dinner the same night. We knew things were about to change, but we certainly didn't think we would be on lock down with no in person school, working from home, etc.  We certainly didn't foresee being in essentially the same place 8 months later.  

My point is that you're making it seem like there was an intentional effort to screw people and I think that's unfair.  People are doing the best they can.  When SB made the decision to honor unused quad pack tix until 12/24 I thought that was gravy.  I'm pretty sure that very few folks thought that the world would basically come to a stop.


----------



## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> C'mon, you can't really blame anyone for the way shit went down in March.  Maybe I'm interpreting what youre saying incorrectly, but it sounds like you feel like Win "promised" you the mountain would be open as usual, and that he tricked you into not using your tickets.  I don't know where you were, but where I was in NY, no one knew what was going to happen from one day to the next.


Yes, you are correct in your misinterpretation.


----------



## Sully (Nov 18, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I feel for you.  I have one unused quad pack ticket from last year.  I also have one unused one from the year before as well.  I also have 3 days of unused Ski VT tickets from last year.
> 
> But I believe that you are conflating two issue.  First is you bought quad packs sometime from September to November.  Win's email that you posted gave the best information that he had at the time.  If you had bought day tix for the weekend of 3/14-15 they would have been refunded if you couldn't use them.  It's two separate issues.  Getting credit for unused quad packs vs. getting a refund for unused day tix purchased after his email.  You had from opening day until March 14th  to use the quad pack tix.
> 
> ...


No. That’s not my point. My point is that they should give us more time to use the passes.


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## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

Sully said:


> No. That’s not my point. My point is that they should give us more time to use the passes.


They should it cost them nothing to do that.  It’s the right thing to do.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 18, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> They should it cost them nothing to do that.  It’s the right thing to do.


Is losing a sale because someone is using a ticket from last year a cost?


----------



## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Is losing a sale because someone is using a ticket from last year a cost?


How would they lose a sale?


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 18, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> How would they lose a sale?


If these people go every year on st patty’s day and they can use their ticket from last year they aren’t buying another for this year.


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## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> If these people go every year on st patty’s day and they can use their ticket from last year they aren’t buying another for this year.


I guess you can look at it that way.  Being a small business owner I look at the value of a long term guest.  In our case I have a season pass at another mountain but we still like going to Sugarbush in the spring.  With this policy of giving us about three weeks to use the tickets in a COVID environment we decided we will not go back to Sugarbush again.  So in this case they lost way more then one sale this year.


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## MisterMagoo (Nov 18, 2020)

Hey HC,

Sugarbush is not a business as much as it is an entire community w/ many different stakeholders. We’ve got folks that visit all season and some that only visit every few years - the distinguishing factor is that it’s a community of like-minded people that believe in the resort, believe in the valley, believe in arguably the best skiing experience around and believe in keeping the mojo that makes it all so special. What we’ve got is so much more than just a small business like you have.

I could repeat what others have already said about pass holders, employees, etc. But if you really feel that you’re done w/ Sugarbush, then that’s your loss. But let’s be honest, that’s on you, not the mountain.


----------



## Powder Whore (Nov 18, 2020)

It seems pretty cut and dry to me? Quad pass lost about a month of skiing last season. It was replaced with about a month of skiing this season.


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## Smellytele (Nov 18, 2020)

Powder Whore said:


> It seems pretty cut and dry to me? Quad pass lost about a month of skiing last season. It was replaced with about a month of skiing this season.


Obviously dec < late mar/early Apr


----------



## Keelhauled (Nov 18, 2020)

MisterMagoo said:


> Hey HC,
> 
> Sugarbush is not a business as much as it is an entire community w/ many different stakeholders. We’ve got folks that visit all season and some that only visit every few years - the distinguishing factor is that it’s a community of like-minded people that believe in the resort, believe in the valley, believe in arguably the best skiing experience around and believe in keeping the mojo that makes it all so special. What we’ve got is so much more than just a small business like you have.
> 
> I could repeat what others have already said about pass holders, employees, etc. But if you really feel that you’re done w/ Sugarbush, then that’s your loss. But let’s be honest, that’s on you, not the mountain.


...it's also wholly owned by a multi-billion dollar Denver conglomerate bankrolled by private equity investors.  You can pretend it's "not a business" as much as you want, but for better or worse the industry is always answerable to turning a profit, and Sugarbush is no exception.  I'm sure the folks at Alterra HQ are looking for a return on their purchase, valley and community be damned.

Nice advertising copy, though.


----------



## Powder Whore (Nov 18, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Obviously dec < late mar/early Apr


In my opinion last spring was shaping up to be short lived. It’s also possible November ‘20 could have been cold/snowy with an early opening.


----------



## hovercraft (Nov 18, 2020)

MisterMagoo said:


> Hey HC,
> 
> Sugarbush is not a business as much as it is an entire community w/ many different stakeholders. We’ve got folks that visit all season and some that only visit every few years - the distinguishing factor is that it’s a community of like-minded people that believe in the resort, believe in the valley, believe in arguably the best skiing experience around and believe in keeping the mojo that makes it all so special. What we’ve got is so much more than just a small business like you have.
> 
> I could repeat what others have already said about pass holders, employees, etc. But if you really feel that you’re done w/ Sugarbush, then that’s your loss. But let’s be honest, that’s on you, not the mountain.


Your response is laughable on so many levels I’m not even sure where to start.  What I will congratulate you on is living in an “entire community” where the first orgasm was created.  Way better then my small business could ever achieve. ......


----------



## tumbler (Nov 19, 2020)

This has gotten painful to read of self entitled d-bags that think Sugarbush owes them something.  You didn't buy a membership in a club.  And when you are here on your special annual trip for your 2 ski days a year you are probable berating a lift op about why the didn't groom Middle Earth for you.  Go to Killington.

Can we get back to bitching about snowmaking?


----------



## slatham (Nov 19, 2020)

Changing subject. With terrible CAMs to begin with and now best one down, where exactly are they making snow? From the golf club view it does not look like Spring Fling or Gate House seeing any?


----------



## tumbler (Nov 19, 2020)

You can see from the golf course cam they are running up top on Jester.  Use the app, the cameras work better on that and you can zoom in.  Switch to summer setting.  Except for the one that is broken


----------



## cdskier (Nov 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Changing subject. With terrible CAMs to begin with and now best one down, where exactly are they making snow? From the golf club view it does not look like Spring Fling or Gate House seeing any?


On the mobile app you can still get to most of the cams. And yes, the Super Bravo cams and Gate House cams confirm that it doesn't look like anything being made on the Spring Fling trail or in the base area by Super Bravo or Gate House...definitely bizarre to not take advantage of those cold temps down low while you have them. You can always go back up high later.


----------



## Castlerockrisk (Nov 19, 2020)

From my house the only activity I can see is on upper organginder and jester at south and possibly elbow at North. All the trails are white but only sporadic white spots at lower elevations, it looks like 1.5/2” above 2000’ feet. 

Kmart opens tomorrow


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## slatham (Nov 19, 2020)

Thanks, I wan't aware of the App. 

I know they were making snow on Jester prior to this cold snap, which was smart since they only had temps up high. But now it appears there has not been any snowmaking at lower elevations? I am baffled by this, especially given the weather forecast I see. While there will be a few windows between now and next Friday, none of them appear to be anywhere close to the one now, especially down low. Assuming they are doing the old fashioned Jester/Downspout/runout, and I am sure they also need (at least) Snowball/Spring Fling, I find it hard to believe they make next weekend. Unless maybe they hit the runout almost to the base but not in view? Or they have better weather intelligence than I do.....


----------



## ducky (Nov 19, 2020)

High of 52˚ tomorrow, then back to colder temps. Plan is to wash my motorcycle then stick it in the living room for the winter, maybe a quick ride first up the App Gap. 

I can see from the top of Spring Fling up to Paradise (the Church) from my bedroom but hard to tell if it's wind or guns running up on Jester. Certainly, the whole view is snow covered and there's an inch on my lawn at 1,100'. Elbow had snow last time I looked, presumably for early season GMVS race training. Why send them to Quebec if you can keep them here?

Rutland (where Kmart is) just reported two more covid deaths this morning. Let's hope Vermont can control its own outbreaks soon with the new restrictions imposed last week. We still have the lowest rate of the whole 50 states in just about every category but the recent flare ups are concerning.

We'll be skiing soon enough. Be safe.


----------



## witchway (Nov 19, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> I guess you can look at it that way.  Being a small business owner I look at the value of a long term guest.  In our case I have a season pass at another mountain but we still like going to Sugarbush in the spring.  With this policy of giving us about three weeks to use the tickets in a COVID environment we decided we will not go back to Sugarbush again.  So in this case they lost way more then one sale this year.


I agree with this sentiment.  Win understood that finding a way to accommodate a long time customer was usually in the best interest of the Resort. In this way a customer can be made to feel valued without going to any great expense. IMO the new management team hasn't figured this out.


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## hovercraft (Nov 19, 2020)

tumbler said:


> This has gotten painful to read of self entitled d-bags that think Sugarbush owes them something.  You didn't buy a membership in a club.  And when you are here on your special annual trip for your 2 ski days a year you are probable berating a lift op about why the didn't groom Middle Earth for you.  Go to Killington.
> 
> Can we get back to bitching about snowmaking?


Lot of hostilities in this reply maybe it’s time to look in the mirror before calling people d-bags.   Just saying....


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## gorgonzola (Nov 19, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> Lot of hostilities in this reply maybe it’s time to look in the mirror before calling people d-bags.   Just saying....


yea i'd have to say tumbler speaks from experience to make those assumptions or he's just an angry elf...


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## jaybird (Nov 19, 2020)

Yeah .. Middle Earth needs a groom..
The Troll Road on here is troubling.
Sign of the times .
Killington will set the tone .. Friday.
Gov Scott will be watching .. closely.
Cheers!


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## Hawk (Nov 19, 2020)

Maybe everybody need so get out on their bike and Ride.  Tonight will be 4 out of 5 nights for me.  Riding is still really good down here.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Thanks, I wan't aware of the App.
> 
> I know they were making snow on Jester prior to this cold snap, which was smart since they only had temps up high. But now it appears there has not been any snowmaking at lower elevations? I am baffled by this, especially given the weather forecast I see. While there will be a few windows between now and next Friday, none of them appear to be anywhere close to the one now, especially down low. Assuming they are doing the old fashioned Jester/Downspout/runout, and I am sure they also need (at least) Snowball/Spring Fling, I find it hard to believe they make next weekend. Unless maybe they hit the runout almost to the base but not in view? Or they have better weather intelligence than I do.....


Looks like the window of good temps at lower elevations was around 36 hours or so (temps are already in the mid 30s at the base now). My best guess is they didn't think that window was long enough to get the progress they wanted down low so figured just stay higher up where they could run the guns continually for a longer time.

I'm currently only seeing 1 day with below freezing high temps at the base in the 10 day forecast...so that's not particularly encouraging for another opportunity to make snow at the bottom. Even at night you only have 2-3 days with temps in the 20s for lows at the base in the current forecast that I see. This weather pattern isn't very helpful.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2020)

witchway said:


> I agree with this sentiment.  Win understood that finding a way to accommodate a long time customer was usually in the best interest of the Resort. In this way a customer can be made to feel valued without going to any great expense. IMO the new management team hasn't figured this out.


wasn't Win still in charge when they decided to honor last seasons quad packs until 12/24?

I get feeling that this policy is unfair, even though I disagree.  I don't get whining about it.  This fooking pandemic sucks for everyone but this issue hardly seems worthy of comment.  and I have 5 quad pack tickets left over which will likely go to waste.


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## ducky (Nov 19, 2020)

Taken about an hour ago. Can see guns running on Jester and top of Valley House, so my guess is they're working on Bravo to HG, down Jester and not Lower Downspout, and then Valley House Quad via Spring Fling to get back to base. They've been saying they want to get Gatehouse open too so there is beginner terrain open and the crowds will be widespread. Two years ago we were in the woods first week of December so all it takes is a few dumps. The best base-maker is actually continuous 3-4" nightly snowfall.

While it looks like winter in this pic you can see the grass on Spring Fling.


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## hovercraft (Nov 19, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> wasn't Win still in charge when they decided to honor last seasons quad packs until 12/24?
> 
> I get feeling that this policy is unfair, even though I disagree.  I don't get whining about it.  This fooking pandemic sucks for everyone but this issue hardly seems worthy of comment.  and I have 5 quad pack tickets left over which will likely go to waste.


I don’t think anyone is whining.  Just stating how we feel about this situation and disappointed that it wasn’t handled differently.  It’s their business they can do what they want.  Not sure why people feel the neeed to demonize others for stating how they feel about the policy at hand.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2020)

that pic makes me feel a bit better about mid December intentions


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## witchway (Nov 19, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> I don’t think anyone is whining.  Just stating how we feel about this situation and disappointed that it wasn’t handled differently.  It’s their business they can do what they want.  Not sure why people feel the neeed to demonize others for stating how they feel about the policy at hand.


Not whining here either.  Just pointing out what I believe to be some short sighted decisions.  My original post was about a season pass stance they have taken, but I think it relates to quad packs or any other customer relations issues as well.  I think Win was better at it.


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## Hawk (Nov 19, 2020)

I like Win and how he ran the place in general, but I think it is tough to say that win was better at it based on the short sampling period.  I mean the pandemic hit and he was still in charge until August right?  He was around when they made the deal about the quad packs. At that time people were being lead to believe that the pandemic was possibly gong away or maybe even a hoax of sorts.  Things have certainly changed since then and there is no way they knew the future events.  The final decision has not been made and people are already throwing them under the bus.  Wait until they open and see what they say before passing judgement.
I have no skin in the game as I have always just paid for the season pass.  This year I bought 2.  IKON and a MRG pass for insurance.  If there is skiing I will certainly be skiing hell or high water and not even a closure is going to stop  me.


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## Smellytele (Nov 19, 2020)

Drove by earlier today. Looked like they were blowing snow on organ grinder. Maybe blow over from jester.
Over at Ellen they blew humps on Inverness and looked like they may have been blowing up above.
MRG actually blew snow at the base as well.
These were just drive-byes as my main mission was to hit Lawson’s for some curbside pickup after picking my son up from college. Got some double, space in between, chinook’d, fayeston maple and homestead haze.


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## Smellytele (Nov 19, 2020)




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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2020)

Latest info on opening day plans from the Sugarbush blog today:



> As you already know, we had to delay our Opening Day scheduled for this weekend due to a lack of snow. The recent warm-up, and subsequent warm-up happening right now, have altered our snowmaking plans. Right now we’re making snow off of Heaven’s Gate since base temps have been too warm. That means we will likely adjust what terrain we plan to have available when we do open. We’ll be sending out updates and updating our snow report as soon as we have a set Opening Day in mind.



So looks like they may no longer be targeting a VH and GH route for opening day...


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Thanks, I wan't aware of the App.
> 
> I know they were making snow on Jester prior to this cold snap, which was smart since they only had temps up high. But now it appears there has not been any snowmaking at lower elevations? I am baffled by this, especially given the weather forecast I see. While there will be a few windows between now and next Friday, none of them appear to be anywhere close to the one now, especially down low. Assuming they are doing the old fashioned Jester/Downspout/runout, and I am sure they also need (at least) Snowball/Spring Fling, I find it hard to believe they make next weekend. Unless maybe they hit the runout almost to the base but not in view? Or they have better weather intelligence than I do.....


Don't they normally blow a valve or something every year at this time.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 19, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> I don’t think anyone is whining.  Just stating how we feel about this situation and disappointed that it wasn’t handled differently.  It’s their business they can do what they want.  Not sure why people feel the neeed to demonize others for stating how they feel about the policy at hand.


Didn’t intend to demonize or offend.


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## TSQURD (Nov 19, 2020)

Slight correction.  2 years ago we were skiing in the woods right about now.  Photo from 11/21/18


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## hovercraft (Nov 19, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Didn’t intend to demonize or offend.


Thank you, I didn’t think you were at all.  It was other comments that I was speaking of.


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## tumbler (Nov 20, 2020)

Geez, sorry to offend everyone.  And yes, I am a tremendous d-bag


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## ducky (Nov 20, 2020)

I think someone asked last week for the official State ski resort guidance:



			https://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accdnew/files/documents/Vermont%20Ski%20Resort%20COVID-19%20Winter%20Operations%20Guidance%20-%202020-11-03.pdf
		


News article from today's VT Digger: https://vtdigger.org/2020/11/19/qua...hange-the-face-of-vermont-skiing-this-season/

Hoping the vaccine comes quickly. Vermont needs you.


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## slatham (Nov 20, 2020)

Per web site, opening day is now Monday Nov 30th........

I guess they do want VH and GH, plus whatever they may be able to open up high.

Or maybe they just want to avoid Thanksgiving weekend and see how things go, and start on a quiet Monday?


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## Powder Whore (Nov 20, 2020)

Has anyone seen the latest Sugarblog? There is a section labeled "attestation".  It sounds to me like everyone will have to certify their  quarantine compliance with the  state of Vt "under the pains & penalties of perjury" before visiting the resort . Heavy Stuff.


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## kingslug (Nov 20, 2020)

yup..not worth it.


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## hovercraft (Nov 20, 2020)

I just got an email stating that any unused quad pack tickets can be used until 12/24 or starting 3/15 to the end of the season.  Thank you that is a fair resolve.


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## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2020)

ducky said:


> The official State ski resort guidance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1989 wants its stock ski lift photo back!


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> 1989 wants its stock ski lift photo back!


The spring fling triple I believe


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> I just got an email stating that any unused quad pack tickets can be used until 12/24 or starting 3/15 to the end of the season.  Thank you that is a fair resolve.



See...I said they still had time to change their mind and that the decision wasn't necessarily final. So much for all the complaints about their "horrible" customer service.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 20, 2020)

I drove down to Kmart this morning. They did an amazing snow making job. I skied onto the chair for 19 of my 20 runs in 4 hours and 20k vert. The minor crowd dissipated by 11. Pretty much low level intermediate but it was great to feel normal again. I hope that today was the beginning of a great season for all of us- in state or out. 

Most wore masks even when skiing. They have a parking reservation system that is pretty easy to use. The snow was pretty soft, never got sloppy despite the warm temps and wind. A couple ways down via three lifts on two seperate areas. Each run had good to edge no rocks, water bars filled in - top to bottom. I heard that they covered everything from zerro to skiable in 72 hours - most impressive for this 34x sugarbush season  pass holder. For what Killington is they have a great execution of a good product- no complaints and the lift never stopped all day- go figure.


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## ducky (Nov 21, 2020)

Nice article about Sugarbush history.

The Roth Family: Rooted in Sugarbush


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2020)

I heard a couple of rumors this weekend in the valley.  I will say this now, they are rumors but from a fairly good source.  I heard that they are having issues with the snowmaking system down low.  There is not a single stich of snow blown on Gate house or spring fling and they did have a few nights that they could have started.  I guess we will see on that one.  Tomorrow will be real cold so if they don't start then I will believe what I am hearing.  The other one is that the Bravo did not pass state inspection.  Again I can not confirm but we will see if if runs in a week.  I guess it is all irrelevant as they really do not have any incentive to open right now.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I heard a couple of rumors this weekend in the valley.  I will say this now, they are rumors but from a fairly good source.  I heard that they are having issues with the snowmaking system down low.  There is not a single stich of snow blown on Gate house or spring fling and they did have a few nights that they could have started.  I guess we will see on that one.  Tomorrow will be real cold so if they don't start then I will believe what I am hearing.  The other one is that the Bravo did not pass state inspection.  Again I can not confirm but we will see if if runs in a week.  I guess it is all irrelevant as they really do not have any incentive to open right now.


I had a feeling about the snowmaking since they have had quite a few opportunities already, but the Super Bravo thing is interesting. Hopefully both can be fixed in the coming weeks (if these are true).


----------



## gorgonzola (Nov 23, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> I just got an email stating that any unused quad pack tickets can be used until 12/24 or starting 3/15 to the end of the season.  Thank you that is a fair resolve.


my daughter got same, awesome and much appreciated!


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2020)

Who knows.  Both things, if they are true could be solved by now.  I am not sure of the timing on the issues.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 23, 2020)

I was hiking yesterday around 1 pm. They  blew about two inches of snow on a patch at-the base of the valley house. They had snow makers opening and closing valves on the lower mountain. Opening rumored the Monday after TG. Looks like most activity is at or above Allens lodge. Raining at low 40’s currently. So far mountain operations is not presenting any real time info. Hope they realize that a spokesperson that provides transparency is great marketing and goodwill to loyal pass holders who fork over lots of money up front.


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## tumbler (Nov 23, 2020)

It's one pumping system out of the base so either they have some pipe breaks or valves broken closed.  They had the towers on at bottom of Fling yesterday which helps get rid of the pressure since it deadheads at the top of Snowball, they probably had a tower on at the top too.  They only put water down Steins when they are making snow on it.  I take that as a good sign that Snowball/Fling can get fired up.  Gatehouse- everything is sent up Hot Shot.


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2020)

Guns have been set up on Hotshot since the first week in November.  Same with Spring Fling.  They may have just opted to not blow seeing all the warm and rain in the forecast.  But they was a couple of windows that were in the lower twenties on the hill for a few days.


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

Got an e-mail saying day lift tickets were now on sale and I was curious what they were charging...the cheapest tickets for a mid-week day are $100 (that's 41% off...which means full price is $169). The cheapest weekend days are typically around $139. Those prices alone should do a pretty good job limiting day ticket sales... Mt Ellen only tickets seem to start at $89 (10% off).


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## HowieT2 (Nov 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Guns have been set up on Hotshot since the first week in November.  Same with Spring Fling.  They may have just opted to not blow seeing all the warm and rain in the forecast.  But they was a couple of windows that were in the lower twenties on the hill for a few days.


Good temps forecast starting this afternoon until wednesday morning then back in the shitter again.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

looks like it was snow at the peaks this morning and now at the base too. 1" on the stake.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 23, 2020)

Castlerockrisk said:


> I drove down to Kmart this morning. They did an amazing snow making job. I skied onto the chair for 19 of my 20 runs in 4 hours and 20k vert. The minor crowd dissipated by 11. Pretty much low level intermediate but it was great to feel normal again. I hope that today was the beginning of a great season for all of us- in state or out.
> 
> Most wore masks even when skiing. They have a parking reservation system that is pretty easy to use. The snow was pretty soft, never got sloppy despite the warm temps and wind. A couple ways down via three lifts on two seperate areas. Each run had good to edge no rocks, water bars filled in - top to bottom. I heard that they covered everything from zerro to skiable in 72 hours - most impressive for this 34x sugarbush season  pass holder. For what Killington is they have a great execution of a good product- no complaints and the lift never stopped all day- go figure.


Seems like they run into an issue every early season.  Low water, pipe burst etc.  It's always the same problem.  The only difference this year, we don't have Win to keeps us up to date.


----------



## djd66 (Nov 23, 2020)

Not sure if anyone is listening over there,... but it would be nice if they could fix the webcams.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

Ikon's VT Attestation form is now live. I got an e-mail from Sugarbush a little while ago about it. Looks like it is a manual process for Alterra to activate your pass though after signing and it could take them up to 48 hours they say. Signing my signature using a mouse was interesting...not sure I've ever done that before.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

ya i got the same email from stratton and sugarbush and attested twice. wasn't sure if my pass number is the number beneath the bar code or the number on the rear. also if it is the number on the front, i don't know if it includes what looks like a capital letter i or whatever this key is "|", which precedes the number on the front. oh well?


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya i got the same email from stratton and sugarbush and attested twice. wasn't sure if my pass number is the number beneath the bar code or the number on the rear. also if it is the number on the front, i don't know if it includes what looks like a capital letter i or whatever this key is "|", which precedes the number on the front. oh well?



I went with the one on front and took the first character for an uppercase "i".


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

i left the i or | off but also went with the front number


----------



## 1dog (Nov 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I went with the one on front and took the first character for an uppercase "i".


Didn't have passes, logged onto Ikon, no pass numbers, still checked off that I was 'Complete'


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Nov 23, 2020)

Just checked the webcam. It looks like they’re making snow at the base area but I can’t tell if they are anywhere else on the mountain. Earlier today they had bravo spinning as well.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ikon's VT Attestation form is now live. I got an e-mail from Sugarbush a little while ago about it. Looks like it is a manual process for Alterra to activate your pass though after signing and it could take them up to 48 hours they say. Signing my signature using a mouse was interesting...not sure I've ever done that before.


Please post the link or the details.  Some have not received the email.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Please post the link or the details.  Some have not received the email.



​
Dear Ikon Pass holder,

Vermont is requiring that season pass holders attest to compliance with all current travel guidelines before you ski or snowboard in Vermont this winter. Your Ikon Pass will not be active in Vermont until you have completed this form. This attestation is required for *ALL* guests visiting Sugarbush.

Please complete your Season Pass Attestation as soon as possible; the activation of your pass may take up to 48 hours. *Your pass will not be active until you have completed this form. *

While the attestation is a one-time process, we ask that you please check the most current guidelines before each visit to Vermont.

We look forward to seeing you soon, and appreciate your support and cooperation with these protocols, developed to help keep us all healthy and our ski and snowboard season long. 
Thank You,

Sugarbush Resort​​
 

SEASON PASS ATTESTATION​
 
 

*Instructions for completing the form:* Each person age 18 and older must complete and submit the form. One adult in the household may fill out the form for themselves and anyone in the household under the age of 18.

To take advantage of Ikon Friends and Family tickets (25% discount), the Ikon Pass holder, or their guest, must go to IKON F&F by noon the day prior to arrival, purchase the ticket and attest for their guest, Ikon pass number required for validation. The ticket will be available for pickup at any ticket window or SugarXpress kiosk with order confirmation email.​


----------



## shadyjay (Nov 23, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Gatehouse- everything is sent up Hot Shot.



Not necessarily.  Pushover is charged from a bunker at the bottom of Easy Rider and that line stops at the top of Pushover.  Hot Shot line is for Hot Shot, Sleeper, and the North Lynx duo.  Its an above ground line, unlike Pushover.  We would often charge the HS line to get Pushover since we needed to make snow closer to the lift for unloading, so with that you used the HS hydrants.  HS line started directly across from North Lynx chair.  The first Pushover hydrant is just down the breakover. 

At one point, Pushover did used to charge thru Hot Shot... I've seen the pipe in North Lynx, but it no longer is possible to do so, IIRC.  I was never a huge fan of charging lines, espec with the system already pressurized, but got it done nevertheless.

Hope everyone stays safe!


----------



## Hawk (Nov 24, 2020)

Looks like they are blowing snow on Spring Fling.  The web cam on the apps shows it.  They should be in good shape for the opening on Monday if all goes well.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 24, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Looks like they are blowing snow on Spring Fling.  The web cam on the apps shows it.  They should be in good shape for the opening on Monday if all goes well.


surprised I don't see a fan gun running there.


----------



## ducky (Nov 24, 2020)

The weather is not looking good for the next week.


----------



## slatham (Nov 24, 2020)

ducky said:


> The weather is not looking good for the next week.


Be careful with next week. Don’t get too depressed or excited by one run of one model. Upper pattern is actually turning favorable. Might not deliver. But models not on it yet.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 24, 2020)

Anyone want to put a date on when mrg opens?


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## mtl1076 (Nov 24, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Anyone want to put a date on when mrg opens?


12/12


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## Hawk (Nov 25, 2020)

Soon as I mention that the web cams are all working on the app, they shut them all off.  WTF


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 25, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> 12/12


Thinking that's optimistic.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 25, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Thinking that's optimistic.



only takes one good storm really. skied magic in November on the two big early storms past two years.


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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Thinking that's optimistic.



Perhaps...but I also think mtl1076 would be in a pretty good position to know what they need to open...


----------



## cdskier (Nov 25, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Soon as I mention that the web cams are all working on the app, they shut them all off.  WTF



Seems to be working fine now for me...maybe it was a temporary issue this morning?


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## mtl1076 (Nov 25, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Thinking that's optimistic.


MRG will open 12/12 even it it has to be the practice slope only.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 25, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> only takes one good storm really. skied magic in November on the two big early storms past two years.


true but that's what I'm afraid of.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 25, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> MRG will open 12/12 even it it has to be the practice slope only.


Thanks.  Practice slope won't do it for me.  Tomorrow I start my snow dancing and juju shrine.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 25, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Thanks.  Practice slope won't do it for me.  Tomorrow I start my snow dancing and juju shrine.



My one and only day ever at MRG was on 12/12 (of 2018). Of course that year they were nearly 100% open at the time and it was incredible (and empty).


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 25, 2020)

Not only do we have the Virus to be depressed about but know we have Josh Fox's single chair blog winter outlook.


----------



## pinnoke (Nov 25, 2020)

Fox's outlook seems inconclusive, so hoping for the best (and that I'll be able to take advantage of those 'good' spans on the winter calendar. It's 5PM, and still no indication on the SB website regarding locking in an Opening date, which had been promised for today. Damn!! Indeed, though the past 48 hours have produced images and a taste of winter, the next several days' forecast looks crappy for our purpose!! No Snovember this year...


----------



## Blurski (Nov 25, 2020)

pinnoke said:


> Fox's outlook seems inconclusive, so hoping for the best (and that I'll be able to take advantage of those 'good' spans on the winter calendar. It's 5PM, and still no indication on the SB website regarding locking in an Opening date, which had been promised for today. Damn!! Indeed, though the past 48 hours have produced images and a taste of winter, the next several days' forecast looks crappy for our purpose!! No Snovember this year...


They just posted, Thursday now.


----------



## ducky (Nov 25, 2020)

Blurski said:


> They just posted, Thursday now.


Where did they post? Can't find it.


----------



## WWF-VT (Nov 25, 2020)

ducky said:


> Where did they post? Can't find it.








						Sugarbush Snow Report & Mountain Conditions
					

Discover all information surrounding open trails, snow making and chair operations here!




					www.sugarbush.com
				




Our new Opening Day is now tentatively scheduled for Thursday, December 3rd. 
Mt. Ellen remains on track for an opening on Friday, December 18th.


----------



## bumpcrasher (Nov 27, 2020)

Very much appreciate the benefit of being on the Ikon and using up the 7 days at Killington.  Yet does anyone know why Sugarbush is the last major mountain in the East to open this year?  Was there a pipe burst??


----------



## Blurski (Nov 28, 2020)

Many reasons come to mind, but one big one stands out in my mind, $$$.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 28, 2020)

Biggest reason that comes to my mind is that they simply have less snowmaking capacity than many other major resorts. When you have marginal temperatures...that weakness shows prominently.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Biggest reason that comes to my mind is that they simply have less snowmaking capacity than many other major resorts. When you have marginal temperatures...that weakness shows prominently.


The two Alterra owned resorts are the only two major resorts that are not open or making snow in VT. Wondering if their other resorts are closed in other states.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 28, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> The two Alterra owned resorts are the only two major resorts that are not open or making snow in VT. Wondering if their other resorts are closed in other states.


Stratton was making snow and stockpiling it when they had temps.  But they dont seem to be in a rush to open.  Might be smart with the short term weather patterns


----------



## 1dog (Nov 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Biggest reason that comes to my mind is that they simply have less snowmaking capacity than many other major resorts. When you have marginal temperatures...that weakness shows prominently.


How much has to do with weather, and more likely, the state doing everything it can to dissuade people from coming from out of state.

Say you were going to have a major business conference, and you had an $X budget. You find out all from out of state - a large % of your attendees, were ( asked, told, warned, etc.) not to come due to a potential spread of a disease and a possible fine.

You'd probably downsize or cancel the event until things improved. 

Skiing at K-Mart was pretty good yesterday - soft snow, not too crowded - except at the usual intersections - and a LOT of newbies, despite the warning that there is ' no beginner terrain'.


Plates from all 6 NE states plus MY/NJ.  Did I mention a lot of beginners? 5 or 6 lifts open- few if any lines, pretty much everyone wore ( or were asked to) wear masks.

Worth the trip. I have an Ikon so the Bush thing is less important to me -  turns on snow - where ever they are, as long as they are 'included' is ok with me.

stays cool above 3000' after Tuesday.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 28, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> The two Alterra owned resorts are the only two major resorts that are not open or making snow in VT. Wondering if their other resorts are closed in other states.



It is currently 38 at the base and 30 at the summit at Sugarbush. Where would you like them to make snow? Since early November they've had guns running whenever it was cold enough. They simply don't have the firepower that other resorts have to make it fast enough (particularly at lower elevations) to take advantage of the short windows we've had this year. This has been an issue for years. It just often gets overlooked and forgotten about once they start getting natural snow and have long enough cold spells to finish snow-making. Often the argument is "why is it taking Sugarbush so long to expand their terrain". Just look back through this thread over the years in the early season. Comes up quite often and long before Alterra bought them...


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 28, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> The two Alterra owned resorts are the only two major resorts that are not open or making snow in VT. Wondering if their other resorts are closed in other states.


I was wondering myself.  As of a day or so ago the only Alterra resort open is Crystal mtn and that is on natural snow. None of their resorts were pushing to open up early.  I wonder if Alterra have a whole bunch of actuaries sitting in a room to figure out how to squeeze as much money out of the year as possible.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 28, 2020)

Here's a video update from John Hammond:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=382070863229424


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 28, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I was wondering myself.  As of a day or so ago the only Alterra resort open is Crystal mtn and that is on natural snow. None of their resorts were pushing to open up early.  I wonder if Alterra have a whole bunch of actuaries sitting in a room to figure out how to squeeze as much money out of the year as possible.


Mammoth, Squaw, and Big Bear are open (and have been for a little while). I genuinely don't blame them (yet) for not rushing to open in VT -- what's the point?


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 28, 2020)

Also it's really sad that friggin' Big Bear (and also a ski hill in *North Carolina*) opened before someplace like Sugarbush.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 28, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Also it's really sad that friggin' Big Bear (and also a ski hill in *North Carolina*) opened before someplace like Sugarbush.



What's so special about Big Bear that you think it is sad they opened before Sugarbush? They regularly open around mid to late November. As for the area in North Carolina that opened...they need to cover something like 700' of vertical while Sugarbush is trying to cover 2400' of vertical. In a normal year, Sugarbush would have been opened already with skiing off of Heaven's Gate. But this year they don't want to open until they have multiple routes/lifts available. Can't say I blame them one bit for that strategy.

There's plenty of other major resorts that haven't opened yet in the Northeast (look at NH).

For all the people that think SB should be open by now...what would you have done differently if you were in charge? It isn't like they haven't been making snow. Back in early November they even had piles on Pushover that were visible from the golf course cam (all completely melted out now...which shows the weather challenges they're dealing with). As far as I can tell, they've been running guns on the same number of trails simultaneously that they would have any other year, so I can't say they're cutting back and blowing less snow to save money (if they do that, it will be something seen later on with not blowing them as deep or skipping some trails or something along those lines).


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 28, 2020)

pretty grim snow scene at the moment, but single chair weather blog latest post talks about incoming series of storms thru mid December and looking much better in 2 weeks, which is when i show up in the valley. so that's cool i guess.

i got a new avatar. it felt on brand.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I was wondering myself.  As of a day or so ago the only Alterra resort open is Crystal mtn and that is on natural snow. None of their resorts were pushing to open up early.  I wonder if Alterra have a whole bunch of actuaries sitting in a room to figure out how to squeeze as much money out of the year as possible.


They've been dragging with Solitude.  As was said in another thread, they had a malfunction of their snowmaking system and they were not too fast in getting it fixed.  

As to SB, it is not at all a normal year.  COVID means that things are much different.  Now under the ownership of a larger national company also means that they need to work through that.  And SB, for a while now, has not been in the "first to open" market anyways.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Here's a video update from John Hammond:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, they have done a lot from what I see there.  The upper mountain looks pretty good.  Spring Fling looks pretty thin, but it is lower.


----------



## machski (Nov 28, 2020)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Also it's really sad that friggin' Big Bear (and also a ski hill in *North Carolina*) opened before someplace like Sugarbush.


They have been getting natural snow since November in pretty good amounts.  This was from two weeks ago flying by.


----------



## ducky (Nov 30, 2020)

8 Rules for Skiing This Season8 Rules for Skiing This SeasonBeing out on the slopes is a perfect pandemic escape. It’s everything around the skiing that’s hard.Being out on the slopes is a perfect pandemic escape. It’s everything around the skiing that’s hard.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Nov 30, 2020)

BIG rains here in the valley tonight. Wondering how well the base will make it thru...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333568091712843776


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> BIG rains here in the valley tonight. Wondering how well the base will make it thru...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333568091712843776


How long will it take for the resorts to recover.  I know most aren't open yet but this is really going to be a hit for the snow that has been made.


----------



## ducky (Dec 1, 2020)

We probably had 2" of rain yesterday. I can still see white trails up there, however.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 1, 2020)

Web cams are still out on both app and the website.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 1, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Web cams are still out on both app and the website.


I got the super bravo one to work on the app and there is some snow left on Fling but not a lot.  Temps don't look too good either.  Thursday not gonna happen


----------



## Castlerockrisk (Dec 1, 2020)

Currently hovering around sixty and windy at about 1200’ in Valley. i just went for a run in Tshirt and shorts. Almost same temp as Florida with snow forecast in Buffalo and down to West Virginia. Go figure? I would be surprised if they open, they blew some pretty high burms above Valley house but near as much below. temps will start to drop later but I forecast another delay in opening. Cross your fingers for some colder temps, we would be in epic conditions if the rain was snow. At least there is plenty of water for snow making.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 1, 2020)

Temps look decent after tonight so there is still a chance they could open this weekend if they’re on top of the snowmaking, but I wouldn’t count on it. Thursday is definitely not happening.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 1, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Temps look decent after tonight so there is still a chance they could open this weekend if they’re on top of the snowmaking, but I wouldn’t count on it. Thursday is definitely not happening.


short window until Wednesday morning.  Not looking good.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Dec 1, 2020)

Snowball and spring fling got pretty blown out. No longer edge to edge on either of them ... still some whales though. Organgrinder looks like it faired better.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 1, 2020)

Looks much better after tonight:






						National Weather Service
					






					forecast.weather.gov
				




Most natural snow coming Sunday night.


----------



## ducky (Dec 1, 2020)

New snow report: 
The weather has continued to remain uncooperative with getting the necessary terrain needed to open. With the recent warm temps, we haven't had the opportunity to properly cover lower mountain terrain. Knowing that, *we have once again been forced to push our Opening Day at Lincoln Peak into the middle of next week.* Based on the forecasts, December 10th seems most likely, but we will continue to update the snow report as things become clearer. Mt. Ellen tentatively remains on track for an opening on Friday, December 18th.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2020)

ducky said:


> We probably had 2" of rain yesterday. I can still see white trails up there, however.


Machine made snow is incredibly durable due to its density.  That said, 2" of rain doesn't help the cause.  

I'm not sure which is worse--heavy rains and warm temps or warm and dry temps as we are having out here.  Our drought continues.....


----------



## cdskier (Dec 1, 2020)

This could be one of the latest opening days in a long time. Granted if it wasn't COVID they could be open with just the top of the mountain, so it isn't exactly a like for like comparison with other late opening years.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 1, 2020)

They are in no rush to open.


----------



## ducky (Dec 1, 2020)

tumbler said:


> They are in no rush to ope


New covid rules by Gov Scott's Executive order today: You can quarantine for 14 days and come to VT to ski ..but you cannot interact with other families or have cross-family gatherings. This means your relatives and friends cannot quarantine then visit you for the holidays but they can come and ski without seeing you. It is rather confusing. The push comes as daily infections continue to come more from casual social gathering. I listened to the deputy health secretary and even she seemed to be not 100% informed. This also means no airbnb or ski house sharing, etc. 

Here's the new brief as of today:

The State of Vermont has suspended all social gatherings between multiple households. While in Vermont, you may not participate in social gatherings, this includes sharing an accommodation with another household outside of your own. Travelers may not stay with a Vermont host or stay in a Vermont lodging establishment or short-term rental with another household. Even if you have completed a quarantine, or intend to quarantine with another household, you may not gather with another household in Vermont. (Individuals who live alone may gather with members of their immediate family residing in a different household).


----------



## ducky (Dec 1, 2020)

On the plus side, Josh Fox says ...Expected 7-day Snowfall: 5-25"


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 1, 2020)

What's the dining story in VT?  Is there indoor dining?  Are there places that are doing outdoor dining with heaters (and doing it well)?


----------



## 1dog (Dec 1, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> What's the dining story in VT?  Is there indoor dining?  Are there places that are doing outdoor dining with heaters (and doing it well)?


Thats a question that probably can't get a correct ( state-wide) answer. In MA, 37 % of all small businesses are shuttered - but you won't hear that on the news feeds - its amazing the black out of objective news. 


If they are limiting travel to VT, I imagine its not doing too well. Kind of cold to eat outdoors after tonight. 

Last time I read it, the contact tracing in NY metropolitan area had less than 2% of cases traced to dining establishments. No matter. 

I've been twice in past month- only dining in Killington Lodge - 30 minute time limit- 8 or so table of 4 max in a room that holds maybe 10X that number of tables.  Staff there were very courteous. Ditto for lifties.


----------



## Blurski (Dec 1, 2020)

The weather has continued to remain uncooperative with getting the necessary terrain needed to open. With the recent warm temps, we haven't had the opportunity to properly cover lower mountain terrain. Knowing that, *we have once again been forced to push our Opening Day at Lincoln Peak into the middle of next week.* Based on the forecasts, December 10th seems most likely, but we will continue to update the snow report as things become clearer. Mt. Ellen tentatively remains on track for an opening on Friday, December 18th.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2020)

ducky said:


> New covid rules by Gov Scott's Executive order today: You can quarantine for 14 days and come to VT to ski ..but you cannot interact with other families or have cross-family gatherings. This means your relatives and friends cannot quarantine then visit you for the holidays but they can come and ski without seeing you. It is rather confusing. The push comes as daily infections continue to come more from casual social gathering. I listened to the deputy health secretary and even she seemed to be not 100% informed. This also means no airbnb or ski house sharing, etc.
> 
> Here's the new brief as of today:
> 
> The State of Vermont has suspended all social gatherings between multiple households. While in Vermont, you may not participate in social gatherings, this includes sharing an accommodation with another household outside of your own. Travelers may not stay with a Vermont host or stay in a Vermont lodging establishment or short-term rental with another household. Even if you have completed a quarantine, or intend to quarantine with another household, you may not gather with another household in Vermont. (Individuals who live alone may gather with members of their immediate family residing in a different household).


So if one comes to Vermont to ski, does one have to quarantine?  I’m confused.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 1, 2020)

you can quarantine prior to your visit to the state or once you arrive, but you cant visit with people once you are in the state. so something like going to stay with your friends at their ski house is against the rules. going to an airbnb or a hotel with just your household is fine. that's how i read it.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Dec 1, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> What's the dining story in VT?  Is there indoor dining?  Are there places that are doing outdoor dining with heaters (and doing it well)?


A significant number of establishments have been converted to / continue to be take out only (Taco, Flatbread, Stoke Ramen, Lawson’s to name a few.) 

Hyde Away, Peasant, Worthy, Toast and Eggs, and the Hostel are all open for indoor dining but capacity has been heavily reduced. Most places had heaters / tents too but I don’t know who or if anyone is planning on keeping that going thru winter. The hostel and Hyde Away both took their tents down a few weeks ago.

It’s been a couple of weeks since we last went out to eat but have been to almost all of the names mentioned above at some point in the last couple months. Everyone’s done a bang up job dealing with the shitty hand they’ve been dealt, safety-wise. Just hope there’s enough folks able to patronize to help them do well enough money-wise. Especially knowing a second round of small biz assistance funding won’t be coming until Jan/Feb most likely.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 2, 2020)

Tucker Hill also had limited indoor dining a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 2, 2020)

Did anyone listen to the zoom call last night? (It was put on by the MRV Chamber of Commerce.) it was an informational zoom on what to expect.  Jon Hammond and MRG General Manager were going to take questions.  They opened it up to everyone- but only had 100 seats available,... apparently they did not want to pay the extra $5.00 for an unlimited number of seats. WTF?  Anyway, would be curious if there was any new information.


----------



## mtl1076 (Dec 2, 2020)

It was also available to watch via youtube live and you can watch the recording; 




And yes, the MRV chamber could use a lesson on Zoom meetings and how to effectively set them up and run them.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

years ago i had a professional connection with hammond's wife, who is an attorney in Burlington (or at least was at the time). then one day i rode heavens gate with Hammond and put 2+2 together. nice people. glad he got the nod to step up into his role.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 2, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> It was also available to watch via youtube live and you can watch the recording;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks,... just watched the Sugarbush part,... no surprises - sounds like it will be a complete shit show. Outside of powder days - I am really questioning if it will even be enjoyable to be at the mountain.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

i'm fairly resigned to using my ikon for a lot of mid-week early season skiing this month, and then retreating to mostly indy and magic. I've also thought about doing some a la carte skiing all the way up at saddleback. that may be the best terrain to crowds situation going this season. sweet 9 hour drive.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 2, 2020)

And CDC just announced they suggest ( or demand?) a quarantine be reduced to 10 days from 14. Some suggest 7 days.









						The CDC is expected to shorten Covid quarantine time, something most everyone seems to agree on
					

"I mean, frankly we probably should have done this sooner," Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the former U.S. Food and Drug Administration commissioner, told CNBC.




					www.cnbc.com
				












						CDC is about to make a surprising change to coronavirus quarantine guidelines
					

The CDC is working on a big change to coronavirus quarantine guidelines for people who have been in contact with infected individuals. The new recommendations will advise a quarantine period of 7-1…




					bgr.com
				












						CDC to shorten COVID-19 quarantine to 10 days, 7 with test
					

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is set to shorten the recommended length of quarantine after exposure to someone who is positive for COVID-19, as the virus rages across the nation. Acco




					www.newsday.com
				




The theme? Constantly moving the goal posts - at least in this they are consistent.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Thanks,... just watched the Sugarbush part,... no surprises - sounds like it will be a complete shit show. Outside of powder days - I am really questioning if it will even be enjoyable to be at the mountain.


I dont want to watch an hour of this, can you summarize?  What's the "complete shit show"?


----------



## Blurski (Dec 2, 2020)

Anyone want to take a guess at how many skiers a "Busy Friday" equals? 
Cagey way to answer how many skiers they can handle.
Seems like that number is going to force them into a Reservation system even for pass holders on weekends, thoughts?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> And CDC just announced they suggest ( or demand?) a quarantine be reduced to 10 days from 14. Some suggest 7 days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reduction is politically motivated.


----------



## crank (Dec 2, 2020)

They are hoping that more people will comply with the shortened time period.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 2, 2020)

Scott will extend it 21 days.


----------



## ducky (Dec 2, 2020)

What may not be apparent in the YouTube recording are all the comments written during the zoom in the chat bar on the side. Probably 3/4 were by one person, "Sarah", who does not want to see any skiing in the MRV or elsewhere this winter. Her comments were addressed fairly by the panel but she was out of control and endless. Most of her comments were just plain wrong such as SB and MRV having zero covid info on their websites or social media posts. She started by saying "nobody cares where you are making snow but that you are even opening and inviting swarms of out-of-staters to the valley" or words to that effect. Matt Lillard, GM at MRG, replied that (having lived 6 winters in Alaska) without an outlet to get outside, the mental health of valley residents would be adversely affected as would the economy on which so many relied. The resorts are following the state's guidelines to the letter and doing the best they can. If further guidance comes that they must close, that's what they'll do.


----------



## ducky (Dec 2, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Anyone want to take a guess at how many skiers a "Busy Friday" equals?
> Cagey way to answer how many skiers they can handle.
> Seems like that number is going to force them into a Reservation system even for pass holders on weekends, thoughts?


I thought about 2500 at Lincoln and 1200 more at MtE.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont want to watch an hour of this, can you summarize?  What's the "complete shit show"?


 I don't think it sounded bad at all:

Significantly limiting # of lift tickets sold, "a high capacity day will look like a really busy Friday"
Focus is on passholders. (Same deal at MRG, 75% of season passes purchased there are VT residents or ppl who moved up for the season.)
This is also dependent upon the amount of terrain open

Your car is your base area. Lodge access will be available but limited to 50% of fire code or 75 people in a give space maximum.
Castlerock, the big room (forget the name), and the cafeteria room will all function as their own spaces within Gatehouse Lodge @ South. Same deal for GML.

If you bought a SB pass or an Ikon pass it's been deactivated and you'll need to fill out the SB attestation form to get it reactivated.
New lift loading methodology. No multiple merging lanes this year - will go by callouts instead. (Referenced a return to how it was done in the 90's, "ghost lines") For those familiar it sounded similar to what they do on the Lincoln Express lift at Loon?
No midweek access to Allyn's lodge
No anticipated changes to uphill travel rules
They bought a bunch of new picnic tables and outdoor space heaters for South patio. Also opening a foodtruck down by the schoolhouse, "802 Burrito"
ALL food orders will be done online. Same goes for marking a reservation for indoor dining.
Designated mandatory mask areas (basically the entire base area unless you're seated and actively eating)
Honestly, anyone who gets to the mtn early and is OK w/ either eating at their car or skiing thru lunch and calling it quits early should be fine. RIP Apres, but we all knew that a loooong time ago.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 2, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> The reduction is politically motivated.


agree


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

that all sounds totally reasonable and barely affects my sugarbush experience.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> No midweek access to Allyn's lodge


This is the only one that is strange to me. What's the logic behind not allowing access mid-week? Simply less for them to worry about cleaning?

Ironically Allyn's lodge is without a doubt the lodge I historically use the most simply to take a quick break and warmup. #2 would be the Glen House (the lower floor again just to take a short break). I could probably count on 1 hand the number of times I'm in any of the base lodges at SB each season...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

staffing i assume. less visa workers this year (if any), and wanting to keep payroll low in a year they will prob lose money


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> staffing i assume. less visa workers this year (if any), and wanting to keep payroll low in a year they will prob lose money


Mid-week Allyn's never had regular staff previously. The food service portion was only open Fri-Sun.


----------



## Blurski (Dec 2, 2020)

Did not hear John mention Valley House, Farm House or School House each of those buildings have multiple floors and spaces. Seems like 75 people max per floor/space seems to be governing. There are 7 levels total in those buildings that is space for another 525 people. I’m sure access or some other limitations to drive the number down but all good spaces for warming.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

Looks like they're blowing snow on Ripcord now from the golf course cam since temps are still too warm down low. So on the plus side, all snow-making trails on the upper mountain off HG should be covered by the time they finally have temps down low to work on those trails.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont want to watch an hour of this, can you summarize?  What's the "complete shit show"?


Most of the info relevant to Sugarbush was on the first 12 minutes.

I was not on the zoom, so I do not know what all the questions were and who was posting - but there were a ton of questions that made it seem  - people from out of state are not welcome by the locals,.. I may be wrong (doubt I am), but that was my take away.  People taking the questions did their best to make it seem otherwise.

As far as the lodges - Don't expect to use them.  If you want food, you need to order online and pick up in the blazer room.  Do I need to make a 10:30 bathroom reservation?

On a side note, I have a friend that was recently at his house (Sugarbush Village) and the local game warden was poking around and writing down his out of state license plate number. WTF?? Really?


----------



## mtl1076 (Dec 2, 2020)

as noted there were a ton of questions from one person about out of stater's etc.  It wasn't predominant across the whole audience. That said, there is a vocal group that feels that way and it was a good forum to try to ease their concerns.  Nothing short of closure will likely make most of that group happy though.  

And game wardens are hardly any sort of enforcement of covid travel policies. I may be wrong (doubt I am), but I imagine there is another reason for your friends situation.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

ducky said:


> What may not be apparent in the YouTube recording are all the comments written during the zoom in the chat bar on the side. Probably 3/4 were by one person, "Sarah", who does not want to see any skiing in the MRV or elsewhere this winter. Her comments were addressed fairly by the panel but she was out of control and endless. Most of her comments were just plain wrong such as SB and MRV having zero covid info on their websites or social media posts. She started by saying "nobody cares where you are making snow but that you are even opening and inviting swarms of out-of-staters to the valley" or words to that effect. Matt Lillard, GM at MRG, replied that (having lived 6 winters in Alaska) without an outlet to get outside, the mental health of valley residents would be adversely affected as would the economy on which so many relied. The resorts are following the state's guidelines to the letter and doing the best they can. If further guidance comes that they must close, that's what they'll do.


Glad I don't live near "Sarah".


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

the type of people to participate in an online community forum probably skew towards the 'get off my lawn' variant and don't necessarily represent the broad community view. tho maybe they do all hate us. i dunno. they've got plenty of their own covid and they sure like ny, nj, ma, ct money at their seasonal businesses


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the type of people to participate in an online community forum probably skew towards the 'get off my lawn' variant and don't necessarily represent the broad community view. tho maybe they do all hate us. i dunno. they've got plenty of their own covid and they sure like ny, nj, ma, ct money at their seasonal businesses


I think you misread me. I'm not offended nor do I feel any hatred.

I just don't want to live near people like her; I can be a fairly "stay off my lawn" type of person too.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

not directed at you jim  directed at djd's comment about an attitude of localism

i also used "the online community forum" to refer to the mad river valley event/youtube, not alpinezone. my bad.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> agree


You guys, don't go dragging all that political BS into this thread.  This thread has been a breath of fresh air.  Leave that talk for every other thread on any other forum.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the type of people to participate in an online community forum probably skew towards the 'get off my lawn' variant and don't necessarily represent the broad community view. tho maybe they do all hate us. i dunno. they've got plenty of their own covid and they sure like ny, nj, ma, ct money at their seasonal businesses


I'm inclined to agree that people like "Sarah" don't represent the broad community view. There's also a lot of non-local transplants that live (and work) up there full time including some of the valley business owners, so realistically a lot of "outsiders" are already part of the community.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 2, 2020)

Why doesn’t “Sarah” try running sugarbush for a year without out of staters. Let’s see how well that goes. She’ll be the same one bitching about the shuttered businesses in the valley a year from now.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 2, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> And game wardens are hardly any sort of enforcement of covid travel policies. I may be wrong (doubt I am), but I imagine there is another reason for your friends situation.


I am not sure what the reason was,.. All I know is his car was parked in the driveway and the game warden stopped in front of his house, got out of the truck and took down his license plate number.  This friend was not hunting and doesn't have guns.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 2, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Why doesn’t “Sarah” try running sugarbush for a year without out of staters. Let’s see how well that goes. She’ll be the same one bitching about the shuttered businesses in the valley a year from now.


FWIW - Sarah has a sister named Karen


----------



## Hawk (Dec 2, 2020)

I know at least 5 people exactly like Sara personally that live in the valley.  Three of them are so call locals and two are transplants.  I also know many people in the valley that are calm and collected about this whole thing and fell there can be a common ground that will allow people from out of state to ski.   I tend to walk away from the Sara types and just ignore them.  Their paranoia is not my problem.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

Sorry I helped get us onto the Sarah track; Hawk is right, lets keep this thread more positive.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2020)

one last thing on Karen, I mean Sarah.   

She probably doesn't want out of staters in her playground without COVID.  Those types live in every place that relies on tourists to fuel the economy. 

I hope SB can get open soon  this shitty year is propagating itself into a shitty start to ski season...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

eh, i dont really think this thread has been 'politics' the past few pages, nor contentious. we're talking about the reality we live in as it relates to sugarbush and a specific piece of sugarbush related content that came out yesterday. 

anyway, fucking snow already jesus crips.


----------



## Blurski (Dec 2, 2020)

VT Game Wardens are fully certified law enforcement officers that can arrest anyone who is violating any state laws, anywhere in the state.
Just not their focus.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I don't think it sounded bad at all:
> 
> Significantly limiting # of lift tickets sold, "a high capacity day will look like a really busy Friday"
> Focus is on passholders. (Same deal at MRG, 75% of season passes purchased there are VT residents or ppl who moved up for the season.)
> ...


That all sounds ok and in line with what we already knew.  Now if we can just get some cold temps and snow for gods sake.
personally- I have a real issue resisting the french fries when I stop for lunch, so maybe this will help me cut a few pounds off me belly.  

anyone have any insight into running a crock pot or what not off the outlet in a truck?  thinking maybe I can fill it with chili, remote start the truck while im skiing and have it hot when I get there.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> agree


could you explain???


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> That all sounds ok and in line with what we already knew.  Now if we can just get some cold temps and snow for gods sake.
> personally- I have a real issue resisting the french fries when I stop for lunch, so maybe this will help me cut a few pounds off me belly.
> 
> anyone have any insight into running a crock pot or what not off the outlet in a truck?  thinking maybe I can fill it with chili, remote start the truck while im skiing and have it hot when I get there.



its all about assorted meats cheeses and baby food fruit squishy packs in your pockets, covid times or not. hot food is for apres.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> as noted there were a ton of questions from one person about out of stater's etc.  It wasn't predominant across the whole audience. That said, there is a vocal group that feels that way and it was a good forum to try to ease their concerns.  Nothing short of closure will likely make most of that group happy though.
> 
> And game wardens are hardly any sort of enforcement of covid travel policies. I may be wrong (doubt I am), but I imagine there is another reason for your friends situation.


fwiw-this hate the foreigner thing is pretty ubiquitous and in no way confined to the MRV and/or VT.  Same thing heard from locals wherever the city folk retreated to.


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 2, 2020)

Blurski said:


> VT Game Wardens are fully certified law enforcement officers that can arrest anyone who is violating any state laws, anywhere in the state.
> Just not their focus.


Can a person be arrested or fined for not following the QT rules?  Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen that.


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its all about assorted meats cheeses and baby food fruit squishy packs in your pockets, covid times or not. hot food is for apres.


Pocket bacon!


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its all about assorted meats cheeses and baby food fruit squishy packs in your pockets, covid times or not. hot food is for apres.


well, we'll see what you prefer when I'm dining on a hot bowl of chili on my tailgate.  I make a pretty good chili.


----------



## mbedle (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> That all sounds ok and in line with what we already knew.  Now if we can just get some cold temps and snow for gods sake.
> personally- I have a real issue resisting the french fries when I stop for lunch, so maybe this will help me cut a few pounds off me belly.
> 
> anyone have any insight into running a crock pot or what not off the outlet in a truck?  thinking maybe I can fill it with chili, remote start the truck while im skiing and have it hot when I get there.


Not sure you are going to get enough watts out of that outlet to heat up a crock pot.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I am not sure what the reason was,.. All I know is his car was parked in the driveway and the game warden stopped in front of his house, got out of the truck and took down his license plate number.  This friend was not hunting and doesn't have guns.


fwiw- This summer, my wife and I were driving to go paddling when I passed a police car going the opposite direction on the way into the launch site.  We pulled the truck into a spot to unload the boards/kayak when we saw the police car pull a uturn and make a bee line back towards us.  he pulled in diagonally behind us as I was in the bed unloading the kayak.  I was like, oh shit, what did I do.  Then the cop got out and asked how I liked the truck as he was thinking of getting one.


----------



## mtl1076 (Dec 2, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Can a person be arrested or fined for not following the QT rules?  Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen that.


Not that I am aware of. The ski area guidance says skiing privileges can be revoked.  As noted last night their isn't a ski area person in the state who know what that would even look like if it were to go down. The ski industry may be the only industry with that type of clause in its guidance. 

And while a game warden may have the power I highly doubt he has any interest in getting himself involved in this issue.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Not sure you are going to get enough watts out of that outlet to heat up a crock pot.


me neither. that's why I was asking.  Guess I need to check owners manual.


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw- This summer, my wife and I were driving to go paddling when I passed a police car going the opposite direction on the way into the launch site.  We pulled the truck into a spot to unload the boards/kayak when we saw the police car pull a uturn and make a bee line back towards us.  he pulled in diagonally behind us as I was in the bed unloading the kayak.  I was like, oh shit, what did I do.  Then the cop got out and asked how I liked the truck as he was thinking of getting one.


Hahahaha.  That's a great story.  I wonder if the cop realized the moment of anxiety that he caused.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw- This summer, my wife and I were driving to go paddling when I passed a police car going the opposite direction on the way into the launch site.  We pulled the truck into a spot to unload the boards/kayak when we saw the police car pull a uturn and make a bee line back towards us.  he pulled in diagonally behind us as I was in the bed unloading the kayak.  I was like, oh shit, what did I do.  Then the cop got out and asked how I liked the truck as he was thinking of getting one.


Nice...what kind of truck?


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Nice...what kind of truck?


Ford Ranger


----------



## villager (Dec 2, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I know at least 5 people exactly like Sara personally that live in the valley.  Three of them are so call locals and two are transplants.  I also know many people in the valley that are calm and collected about this whole thing and fell there can be a common ground that will allow people from out of state to ski.   I tend to walk away from the Sara types and just ignore them.  Their paranoia is not my problem.


I tried to take some notes from the Zoom call last night. There were a lot of good questions, but most of the chat was completely hijacked by Sarah.  I gave up after about 35 minutes.  At least a couple of people were pushing back agianst her on the chat.  Here are some excerpts:

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:13 PM

To be very frank - we don’t really care about where you’re making snow.
Please tell us why you are inviting swaths of people to visit this area when we
are all just trying to stay safe and have limited resources here in the valley

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:13 PM

Sugarbush - how many of YOUR pass holders are VT residents vs not?
How are you certain that those people who are inviting from out-of-state to the MRV this winter 
to ski will tell the truth about quarantining?

From Don to Everyone: 07:13 PM

People will falsify it
It is a charade

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:16 PM

Why are you encouraging/inviting people to visit the Mad River Valley
this winter when the VT Dept of Health (and the CDC) have issued travel
advisories against non-essential travel, including locally even within the state?
Residents of Vermont aren’t supposed to be traveling even outside their local area,
except for essential reasons. So out-of-state visitors aside, why are encouraging people
from outside the MRV to travel from elsewhere (i.e. Burlington) to ski at Sugarbush and Mad River?

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:21 PM

Sugarbush - why have you not put anything on your website homepage about discouraging travel
to Vermont and the state quarantine guidelines for non-essential travel?
You’re trying to make it work for you but not for the local residents who are just trying to stay safe
Why are you encouraging people to visit the ski resorts which are gathering places
(whether it be in the outside base areas or parking lots) where multiple households will
interact for a non-essential purpose, when the state of VT has banned multi-household gatherings?
Why are you encouraging visitors to the MRV and ski resorts when local families are hunkered down at home unable to even socialize with neighbors?

"Staying safe" competes with the unsafety of economic distress and social despair.
Local xenophobia with respect to people from elsewhere isn't always helpful

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:25 PM

Saving lives is more important than skiing
If people want to go outside, they can go on a walk, snowshoe, bike, backcountry ski….
You don’t need to open a large resort attracting hoards of people to our town for locals to
be able to get outside this winter. Not many locals will feel safe going up to the mountain this winter.

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:27 PM

People who don’t get tested within Vermont are not part of the contract tracing in Vermont.
So if someone lies about quarantining and turns out they have Covid and don’t find out till they get
home after a weekend skiing in Vermont, the state of VT will never know about that case. T
he current stats on causes of cases in VT right now are just based on the data that the state has, not
data from other states of people who have visited here for a few days.

From Don to Everyone: 07:27 PM

The rules are unworkable for the lodging industry. Everyone knows that.

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:27 PM

You should be going above and beyond what the state is requiring to keep our small rural community safe.
On the topic of educating people…. Can sugarbush please tell us why they haven’t been educating people
about all of the quarantine rules? There’s been nothing in their marketing emails or on their website or on their social media.
Nothing even on their homepage. Why?

From Don to Everyone: 07:29 PM

Sarah, you are asking people to go broke. Perhaps you are too comfortable and have lost perspective for the working class.

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:29 PM

The only reason we know vermonters who have Covid is cause we don’t know of people who get tested once they return
to their home out of state.

From mwade to Everyone: 07:30 PM

Sarah, the 2020/21 Winter Operating link at the top of the Sugarbush home page provides this info.

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:31 PM

Sugarbush should have this info right on the website - it shouldn’t require a click through.
Actually it requires several click throughs to get to even just basic info about the travel guidelines
and then deflects it to the state website. It should be very obvious on the homepage.
And should be in every single marketing email that goes out. This isn’t hard to do.
It makes it seem like sugarbush is avoiding trying to educate people about the state policies

--Sarah then asks "encouraging" question again--

From Don to Everyone: 07:34 PM

Sarah, the ski areas and lodgers are conspiring against you!

From Sarah to Everyone: 07:36 PM

Sugarbush - Especially not knowing where Ikon holders are from and what days they’ll planning to visit,
why have you not implemented a restricted reservation system, which was recommended but not required by
the state, when other large comparible resorts (Killington and Stowe) have gone above and beyond the state guidelines?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

lol. bitches be crazy?


----------



## tumbler (Dec 2, 2020)

Les Sarah, More Rock


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

She seems...umm...pleasant...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Glad I don't live near "Sarah".


Sounds like I should watch this video for a good laugh.  

Out of staters vs. locals is a recurrent theme for conflict in Vermont and other resort communities.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 2, 2020)

villager said:


> I tried to take some notes from the Zoom call last night. There were a lot of good questions, but most of the chat was completely hijacked by Sarah.  I gave up after about 35 minutes.  At least a couple of people were pushing back agianst her on the chat.  Here are some excerpts:
> 
> From Sarah to Everyone: 07:13 PM
> 
> ...


If she’s so scared, why doesn’t she lock herself up in her house for the winter??


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2020)

sounds like Sarah could use a sedative.  Maybe she can protest the lack of retail marijuana in the MRV.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 2, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> could you explain???


Well Howie,
I could, but the moderator suggests we leave it alone.  Suffice to say that shortening the quarantine may relieve some pressure from constituents whose businesses (and therefore livelihood) are suffering terribly.


----------



## ducky (Dec 2, 2020)

The reason Allyn's will be closed midweek is that Sugarbush is required to keep and, if necessary, provide contact tracing information for all buildings to the State. Hammond said that was not possible without having a reservation system, so Allyn's would remain closed midweek and by res on weekends.

As I said before, Sarah dominated about 3/4 of the conversation. Eric, to his credit, did address some of her concerns and kept the meeting on-track.

Not sure how they enforce the attestation, license plate readers on some VSP cars maybe, but skiing privileges will be revoked for those who do not quarantine as they promise. My guesstimate is roughly 20% will lie and come anyway, 20% will follow the rules and do the quarantining, and 60% will not come at all.

I know the warden personally and he tirelessly enforces state game laws. Chances are your friend's vehicle was similar to one that was called in. He gets texts all day from landowners and hunters alike.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

villager said:


> I tried to take some notes from the Zoom call last night. There were a lot of good questions, but most of the chat was completely hijacked by Sarah.  I gave up after about 35 minutes.  At least a couple of people were pushing back agianst her on the chat.  Here are some excerpts:
> 
> From Sarah to Everyone: 07:13 PM
> 
> ...



I just watched the whole video...wish I had the entire chat transcript. You could periodically see the first few words of new comments popping up and would love to have seen them all. Definitely seems to be some completely inaccurate things said by Sarah (particularly around lack of communications by SB to their visitors and her statement that other resorts are doing more than SB by having reservations).

To the communications point, I think I've received via e-mail (and seen on their website) plenty of communication from Sugarbush alerting me to what the rules are. The very fact that they are disabling passes until you sign the attestation is a rather significant step as well that at least forces people to say they read the rules (which as far as I know, K didn't do and not sure if Stowe/Vail did either).

To the reservation point, as I think it was John pointed out, simply requiring a reservation doesn't have any bearing on whether that person is following the rules and guidelines. Realistically the only thing it does is help you manage capacity. If SB and MRG think they can accomplish the same thing by basically being mostly pass-holder only with just a limited number of day tickets being made available, then good for them. They know their historical numbers and how many are typically passholders vs day ticket holders on any given day. It isn't like they don't have a plan. We'll find out soon enough how it works out.


----------



## TSQURD (Dec 2, 2020)

Speaking of the attestation, is it just me or is the site note working properly?  It crashes after I put my initials in


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2020)

villager said:


> I tried to take some notes from the Zoom call last night. There were a lot of good questions, but most of the chat was completely hijacked by Sarah.  I gave up after about 35 minutes.  At least a couple of people were pushing back agianst her on the chat.  Here are some excerpts:
> 
> From Sarah to Everyone: 07:13 PM
> 
> ...


WTF??!!  

She must not understand that for about the last 75 years or so skiing and tourism have been essential for the survival of the Mad River Valley. What planet is she on?  I also think she might not be a fan of IKON.  Willing to bet she has not lived in the MRV for that long.

Someone should have told her to go to the TGR forums to share her ideas.  She would have been eaten alive


----------



## Powder Whore (Dec 3, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> well, we'll see what you prefer when I'm dining on a hot bowl of chili on my tailgate.  I make a pretty good chili.





HowieT2 said:


> Ford Ranger


A co-worker of mine used to have a 12V lunch box. He put his lunch into metal to-go containers then inside the lunch box. He would plug it into the cig lighter about 20 min before lunch. I remember it working very well. I also remember how jealous I was of his hot food. I would check your power points to see how they operate in relation to your auto start.


----------



## dustyroads (Dec 3, 2020)

Powder Whore said:


> A co-worker of mine used to have a 12V lunch box. He put his lunch into metal to-go containers then inside the lunch box. He would plug it into the cig lighter about 20 min before lunch. I remember it working very well. I also remember how jealous I was of his hot food. I would check your power points to see how they operate in relation to your auto start.


When I was a kid my mother would put hot dogs in one thermos and hot chocolate  in another. Best lunch ever.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 3, 2020)

It looks like another snowmaking window hasn’t been taken advantage of. It doesn’t look like the guns have been on at all. It just seems a bit odd that places like magic are making snow while sugarbush isn’t...


----------



## tumbler (Dec 3, 2020)

I think they are on Ripcord.  Look at the golf course cam.  Temps no good down low.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 3, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> me neither. that's why I was asking.  Guess I need to check owners manual.


Try the big 64oz yeti.  Preheat it with hot water then put the chili in.  Works like a champ.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It looks like another snowmaking window hasn’t been taken advantage of. It doesn’t look like the guns have been on at all. It just seems a bit odd that places like magic are making snow while sugarbush isn’t...





tumbler said:


> I think they are on Ripcord.  Look at the golf course cam.  Temps no good down low.


Yup...what tumbler said. I saw guns going on Ripcord yesterday from the golf course cam as well (and posted here mentioning it...but I think that was overlooked with all the Sarah posts!)

Right now it is 34 at the base. When I went to sleep last night it was only down to the upper 20s at the base. That's not a big window of barely marginal temps at the base (and wet bulb may have even been above freezing). Makes much more sense to just leave the guns running on Ripcord overnight instead of shutting that down and firing up down low for a few hours of minimal production. Better off waiting until you have a colder/longer window down low so you can maximize your output and efficiency.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think they are on Ripcord.  Look at the golf course cam.  Temps no good down low.


Couldn’t see any clouds from the golf course cam. If only their webcams were working. Strange.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> WTF??!!
> 
> She must not understand that for about the last 75 years or so skiing and tourism have been essential for the survival of the Mad River Valley. What planet is she on?  I also think she might not be a fan of IKON.  Willing to bet she has not lived in the MRV for that long.
> 
> Someone should have told her to go to the TGR forums to share her ideas.  She would have been eaten alive


Truer words never spoken TB. She can't on this forum. TGR is a cesspool - must admit, it can be entertaining at times though. If you ever want ski comedy, read Gaper string. Pee your pants kinda laughs . . .


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Couldn’t see any clouds from the golf course cam. If only their webcams were working. Strange.


It was much more visible/easier to see yesterday with the way it was blowing. You don't always see big snowmaking clouds though depending on weather/wind (especially when looking from a cam so far away). I do wish they had a better cam angle that zoomed in on the summit more.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 3, 2020)

This might change some locals feelings towards a shut down.  And also second homeowners...taxation without...








						Vt. officials forecasting 9% property tax hike
					

A new report from Vermont’s tax department forecasts property taxes to increase by an average of nine percent this year.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2020)

nice to see white on the golf course and hill and ~1.5 on the 24 hour stake. at least its cold enough now that it wont just disappear.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> This might change some locals feelings towards a shut down.  And also second homeowners...taxation without...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow.  Can't say that I am surprised.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> This might change some locals feelings towards a shut down.  And also second homeowners...taxation without...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gotta make up those self induced budget deficits somehow


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 3, 2020)

Hi all, I have a quad pack for sugarbush for sale. 4 live all mountain tickets, you still have to make reservations. 

They are leftovers from last year, extended till 12/24/2020 or after 3/14/2021. 100% live tickets, make reservations, show up, go to lift, ski. 

I just looked at their lift ticket prices to see what these are worth, and holy crap! lift tickets are $100  a day in  mid december if you buy on line, up to $169 for later in the month.

So yeah, these are a good deal.

My family  cannot go as  we cannot meet the quarantine restrictions.  

I am in NH and have paypal, if you are reasonably close I can deliver.  if interested, IM me and I will respond.

If its improper to post this here my apologies, I just thought this would be the best place for interested parties to see this.

Thanks!


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> A significant number of establishments have been converted to / continue to be take out only (Taco, Flatbread, Stoke Ramen, Lawson’s to name a few.)
> 
> Hyde Away, Peasant, Worthy, Toast and Eggs, and the Hostel are all open for indoor dining but capacity has been heavily reduced. Most places had heaters / tents too but I don’t know who or if anyone is planning on keeping that going thru winter. The hostel and Hyde Away both took their tents down a few weeks ago.
> 
> It’s been a couple of weeks since we last went out to eat but have been to almost all of the names mentioned above at some point in the last couple months. Everyone’s done a bang up job dealing with the shitty hand they’ve been dealt, safety-wise. Just hope there’s enough folks able to patronize to help them do well enough money-wise. Especially knowing a second round of small biz assistance funding won’t be coming until Jan/Feb most likely.



Take Peasant off that list...they just decided to stop indoor dining for the foreseeable future. They're still doing take-out though Thursday-Sundays with online ordering.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 4, 2020)

Looks like a solid week of snowmaking temps starting tomorrow.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 4, 2020)

and 2-4" natural




__





						National Weather Service
					






					forecast.weather.gov


----------



## cdskier (Dec 4, 2020)

I made the mistake of updating the Sugarbush app on my phone to the latest version...now from the app you can only see the same 3 webcams that are on the website.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 4, 2020)

Sugarbush is actually spinning a lift now. You just have to be affiliated with GMVS to get on Inverness now per one of my Mount Snow friends whose daughter is in her senior year at GMVS! 

Trail width is a bit narrow, and the new GMVS t-bar isn't quite ready to haul athletes up Inverness, but the snow is good from what my friend, via his daughter, told me!


----------



## kingslug (Dec 5, 2020)

9% tax hike..hmm. Guess I could sell the condo in Stowe and get one in NH. Seems to be a lot less BS there than in VT.  Probably less crowded as well.


----------



## ScottySkis (Dec 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> 9% tax hike..hmm. Guess I could sell the condo in Stowe and get one in NH. Seems to be a lot less BS there than in VT.  Probably less crowded as well.


Leuffs natural white st


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> 9% tax hike..hmm. Guess I could sell the condo in Stowe and get one in NH. Seems to be a lot less BS there than in VT.  Probably less crowded as well.


FWIW maybe not.  NH only has a property tax and it is pretty significant.  But that is the only tax.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 5, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW maybe not.  NH only has a property tax and it is pretty significant.  But that is the only tax.


It is higher per thousand than other places, but as TB says, its the only tax, and what's more important, unless you are on one of the major lakes the RE town estimates are very conservative as compared the say MA. My house would be. valued at least $200K less in NH than here in MA. Maybe more.  Meanwhile taxes in VT ( before this proposed increase) have doubled in 17 years in Fayston - a lower tax town than Waitsfield or Warren. Offset ( if you live there) by no income tax or sales tax. You will have higher auto insurance fees because NH does not require drivers ( last time I check with my daughter who lives there) so uninsured motorist insurance is significantly higher. 

Heres the dilemma - Like Utah, Greens get more snow than the Whites even though 1500 feet lower - that lake effect and grabbing those Alberta clippers before NH, and of course, outside of Wildcat, most NH areas are lower elevations than K-Mart.Stowe.Bush.MRG.Jay.etc. 

You pay for the additional 100 " a year - its worth it. Have customers every week with places in the Whites - we do better- just don't tell any more people,ok?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2020)

1dog said:


> Heres the dilemma - Like Utah, Greens get more snow than the Whites even though 1500 feet lower - that lake effect and grabbing those Alberta clippers before NH, and of course, outside of Wildcat, most NH areas are lower elevations than K-Mart.Stowe.Bush.MRG.Jay.etc.


Cannon and Waterville both state they are over 4k elevations. (Cannon definitely, Waterville umm...)


----------



## 1dog (Dec 5, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon and Waterville both state they are over 4k elevations. (Cannon definitely, Waterville umm...)


Thats true, only skied WV a handful of times, that's where one customer has a place - last time I looked, 140-150" a year. Cannon more fun, but I've never been there when it wasn't windblown - all that north wind gets funneled between Lafayette and Cannon into the Notch. That Kinsman trail though, reminds me of Castlerock. Does it ever have enough snow to open?


----------



## Puck it (Dec 5, 2020)

1dog said:


> Thats true, only skied WV a handful of times, that's where one customer has a place - last time I looked, 140-150" a year. Cannon more fun, but I've never been there when it wasn't windblown - all that north wind gets funneled between Lafayette and Cannon into the Notch. That Kinsman trail though, reminds me of Castlerock. Does it ever have enough snow to open?


Yes it does and you can ski it from the top along with everything to the left and right.  Best terrain on the mountain.  2K glade. 

The top of WV is not above 4K. Tescumsch is though.  

Btw, real estate taxes are made up of town, state, county and school.  Each have a different rate.  There are place with very low tax rates like Lincoln and Bartlett. They have a lot of condos and vacation homes that do use the infrastructure.  Also in  MA, Nantucket tax rate is $3 per$1000 assessment.  Another fact.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 5, 2020)

$3? No services and avg $3M price tag. Great place to go if you don't want people dropping in too.

Newcastle NH has lowest tax rate on the state last I knew - if you can afford to buy there.


----------



## ducky (Dec 6, 2020)

Picked up a gentleman hitchhiking a few years back going from Littleton to Sugar Hill. I say gentleman as he was wearing a button-down shirt with an ascot and khakis and carrying multiple bags of shopping, not your usual I-93 sight. We got to talking ski racing as we could see Franconia Notch from the truck and my son was racing overseas at the time. He was very knowledgeable going back to the 70s and knew everyone in the racing circles. Turned out to be Bode Miller's uncle just out doing some shopping and didn't own a car. New Hampshire!


----------



## djd66 (Dec 6, 2020)

ducky said:


> Picked up a gentleman hitchhiking a few years back going from Littleton to Sugar Hill. I say gentleman as he was wearing a button-down shirt with an ascot and khakis and carrying multiple bags of shopping, not your usual I-93 sight. We got to talking ski racing as we could see Franconia Notch from the truck and my son was racing overseas at the time. He was very knowledgeable going back to the 70s and knew everyone in the racing circles. Turned out to be Bode Miller's uncle just out doing some shopping and didn't own a car. New Hampshire!


Great story,... thanks for sharing!


----------



## Blurski (Dec 7, 2020)

Looks like $550 for the cabin rental.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Looks like $550 for the cabin rental.


Turning into deer valley?


----------



## djd66 (Dec 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Turning into deer valley?


How much were you expecting them to charge?  Given how much money they are going to lose this season, I have no issue with them being creative to create new revenue streams.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 7, 2020)

Really hoping that Sugarbush can get their webcams up again soon. It’s impossible to see snowmaking progress from the golf course...


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Really hoping that Sugarbush can get their webcams up again soon. It’s impossible to see snowmaking progress from the golf course...



They're technically up, just not visible from the site. Here's the current view from the Super Bravo cam:


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 7, 2020)

looks pretty good and white. the golf course cam makes me sad


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## mikec142 (Dec 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Turning into deer valley?


I'm all for SB being creative, especially this season.  No one is forcing you to use these cabins.  But there are people who are thrilled to have the option to use them.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> They're technically up, just not visible from the site. Here's the current view from the Super Bravo cam:
> 
> View attachment 49644


Looking good - If they’re not on the site or app, how are they visible?


----------



## Blurski (Dec 7, 2020)

djd66 said:


> How much were you expecting them to charge?  Given how much money they are going to lose this season, I have no issue with them being creative to create new revenue streams.


Seems in line as Clay Brook starts at $569/night and goes up from there.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 7, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I'm all for SB being creative, especially this season.  No one is forcing you to use these cabins.  But there are people who are thrilled to have the option to use them.


and not for nothing, but those things did cost something to build.


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> and not for nothing, but those things did cost something to build.


Totally.  

There are those who object to any type of change...especially if they perceive that someone else is "gaining" from it.  It's the if I have to rough it and warm up in my car, then everyone should have to rough it just like me mentality.


----------



## pinnoke (Dec 7, 2020)

that snowmaking image posted by cdskier is a sight for sore (and bored) eyes!


----------



## 1dog (Dec 7, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Totally.
> 
> There are those who object to any type of change...especially if they perceive that someone else is "gaining" from it.  It's the if I have to rough it and warm up in my car, then everyone should have to rough it just like me mentality.


Same with 1st tracks in the Cat way back when - if someone wants to spend that kinda dough on 1st runs on Spring Fling God Bless 'em!  Human nature I guess, we always look up instead of down.  We were built on equal opportunity not equal outcomes. If I had to dough, I'd consider a mobile home for base lodging and lunch too!


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 7, 2020)

1dog said:


> Same with 1st tracks in the Cat way back when - if someone wants to spend that kinda dough on 1st runs on Spring Fling God Bless 'em!  Human nature I guess, we always look up instead of down.  We were built on equal opportunity not equal outcomes. If I had to dough, I'd consider a mobile home for base lodging and lunch too!


Yep.  I feel the same way.  Would love to spend the money to rent  one of these cabins.  Would make my life so much easier.  But other spending/savings plans take precedence.  Happy for those who choose to make use of the cabins.  Such is life.


----------



## Powder Whore (Dec 7, 2020)

I'm curious to see what the policy will be for these when there not rented? It would be nice if they were open to mid-week skiers for short lunch breaks. Given the state of the world right now I doubt it though.


----------



## noworriesvt (Dec 7, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Looking good - If they’re not on the site or app, how are they visible?


IKON app has them.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 7, 2020)

$550 divided by 8 is 68.75, by 12 is 45.83.  I assume if you rent it you can share it, and the cost, with as many people as you'd like.  Doesnt really work for me personally, but I can see if you have a family with little kids and can share the costs with other similarly situated, it could make sense.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> $550 divided by 8 is 68.75, by 12 is 45.83.  I assume if you rent it you can share it, and the cost, with as many people as you'd like.  Doesnt really work for me personally, but I can see if you have a family with little kids and can share the costs with other similarly situated, it could make sense.


when I had little kids adding 550 to a ski day wouldn’t have worked. If I was going in on it with some of my 7 buddies maybe but I just hope this isn’t going to be the “lodges of the future”.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> $550 divided by 8 is 68.75, by 12 is 45.83.  I assume if you rent it you can share it, and the cost, with as many people as you'd like.  Doesnt really work for me personally, but I can see if you have a family with little kids and can share the costs with other similarly situated, it could make sense.



Except VT expressly forbids "gathering" with people outside your household. So I don't think multiple families sharing a small cabin would go over too well. They only hold 8 people each anyway...


----------



## ducky (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Except VT expressly forbids "gathering" with people outside your household. So I don't think multiple families sharing a small cabin would go over too well. They only hold 8 people each anyway...


Exactly


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Dec 7, 2020)

I skied Kmart yesterday. What I saw has me feeling good about the season. They were much more crowded than I expected, but they did a great job managing crowds and facilitating line control. There were also employees walking thru the lift lines reminding folks to keep masks above the nose, as well as at the top of the lifts in the unloading areas where people congregate before dropping in. Lift lines were definitely longer due to lots of groups of 2 getting their own gondola or 6-pack but it was never unbearable. 

I will say this tho: if there's going to be some "percentage of out of state plates in the lot on a Saturday" litmus test for if folks feel comfortable skiing or not I'd recommend you purchase your backcountry gear now. (Or get comfortable with the fact that a lot of those white and yellow plates have been doing their quarantines and/or relocated to VT for the season.)


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Except VT expressly forbids "gathering" with people outside your household. So I don't think multiple families sharing a small cabin would go over too well. They only hold 8 people each anyway...


I wonder if two families split it and just alternate usage time...would that fly?  No big deal either way.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I wonder if two families split it and just alternate usage time...would that fly?  No big deal either way.


Will it be cleaned in-between?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I wonder if two families split it and just alternate usage time...would that fly?  No big deal either way.


Honestly I doubt it. If people kept it quiet, who would know? But if the state did somehow find out people were doing that, then I wouldn't be surprised if they requested that the cabins be completely shut down to avoid that potential from happening.



Smellytele said:


> Will it be cleaned in-between?


Exactly why I don't think that "splitting time" scenario would fly...


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 7, 2020)

Obviously a whole different ballgame but check out these cabins at red in bc.  literally on trail up the mountain to sleep in.








						The Constella: A Cabin Collective - RED Mountain Resort
					

Your Content Goes Here   Our newest bucket list experience here at RED Mountain in Rossland, BC provides you an overnight resort stay as remote and unique as ever. Bookings are open




					www.redresort.com
				



now if we could just travel to canadia.....


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Obviously a whole different ballgame but check out these cabins at red in bc.  literally on trail up the mountain to sleep in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


seems like a much better deal (although not sure  of the exchange rate) for $695.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 8, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> seems like a much better deal (although not sure  of the exchange rate) for $695.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 8, 2020)

Almost 30% off. Think it's a $1.28 for every US dollar. Borders still closed? Both ways?


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 8, 2020)

Today’s webcam footage - looking good


----------



## jaybird (Dec 8, 2020)

That's what we're talkin bout


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2020)

looks like their rain proofing the base.  Those Whales are enormous


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## Blurski (Dec 8, 2020)

Looks like great production, what is the over under on if they groom it out for Thursday or leave the whales and let it drain?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 8, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> looks like their rain proofing the base.  Those Whales are enormous


I don't think they're as big as you think they are. They need a fairly large amount of snow in that base area. When they're done pushing those piles out, you'd never know they ever had piles that size.

Here's the current view from the Bravo cam:


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 8, 2020)

Wow.  I so miss this!


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Dec 8, 2020)

Can anyone share insight on when they usually open for uphill? Is it usually just once snow making is done on Racer's Edge and Snowball, so maybe as early as next week? This winter is my first living in the valley full-time so I obviously was one of those people who went out and splurged on full AT setup in hopes of many pre-work turns. 

If I'm being honest an AT lap at MRG and a few rides up Inverness before logging on for the 9-to-5 seems a bit friendlier to my sleep schedule but I'm jonesing get out there and validate all of the money I set on fire..


----------



## Hawk (Dec 8, 2020)

I think you can go to MRG anytime if there is snow.  At SB, right now with snow on only 6 or 8 trails it is hard.  In the past they have not officially open up the uphill until the majority of the snowmaking is complete.  or they have a big snow year early.  There simply aren't enough routes to keep people off trails with hoses, cats, ski mobiles, etc.  I have in the past, suggested that asking only gets you an answer you won't like.  Be smart, be courteous but most importantly be stealthy. ;-)


----------



## cdskier (Dec 8, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Can anyone share insight on when they usually open for uphill? Is it usually just once snow making is done on Racer's Edge and Snowball, so maybe as early as next week? This winter is my first living in the valley full-time so I obviously was one of those people who went out and splurged on full AT setup in hopes of many pre-work turns.
> 
> If I'm being honest an AT lap at MRG and a few rides up Inverness before logging on for the 9-to-5 seems a bit friendlier to my sleep schedule but I'm jonesing get out there and validate all of the money I set on fire..


Sometimes later than that. If they're moving equipment around at all for snowmaking or have to do any winching out of piles, etc, they'll usually keep the uphill routes closed until that is completed. I'm not even sure if Racers/Lower Snowball would be next in line for snowmaking. They may want to try to spread out terrain more to other pods (i.e. Gatehouse) first before making snow on those trails on the VH side. Some of the mid-mountain trails off Super Bravo may also be earlier in line than Lower Snowball/Racers (i.e. Lower OG or Lower Jester) to help spread people out away from the VH side.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 8, 2020)

dot gov is saying good things about weds>thurs.


----------



## Blurski (Dec 8, 2020)

Looks like getting up close parking for the early bird is going away, lost the closest lot last year to valet, guessing we will loose the next tier this season to paid parking. I feel this would happen eventually regardless of COVID.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

Sucking 


Blurski said:


> View attachment 49658
> Looks like getting up close parking for the early bird is going away, lost the closest lot last year to valet, guessing we will loose the next tier this season to paid parking. I feel this would happen eventually regardless of COVID.


Sucking pennies out of everything. What is next? Charging for the shuttle? Starting to be Like airlines!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 8, 2020)

I JUST PACKED, AND MADE A SANDWICH THAT I WILL EAT TOMORROW, WHILE SKIING.


----------



## ducky (Dec 8, 2020)

My wife watched a zoom today with the GM of Killington. He said they're having a parking reservations problem where the lot is fully booked on the system but many slots are open, thus they're losing business to those who don't show up after reserving. He said they'll allow it once, maybe twice, then any other no-shows will lose their ability to park for the season. In my opinion, they should take a reservation with a refundable booking fee which you get back when you show up, much like some more popular restaurants do in metro areas.

Meanwhile, Sugarbush seems ready to go. Plan to arrive fashionably late, enough to miss the initial crowd, and grab some morning runs.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 8, 2020)

i plan to arrive stupidly early to get firsts 

killington tomorrow. sugarbush on Thursday on what tentatively looks like a little powder


----------



## JimG. (Dec 8, 2020)

ducky said:


> My wife watched a zoom today with the GM of Killington. He said they're having a parking reservations problem where the lot is fully booked on the system but many slots are open, thus they're losing business to those who don't show up after reserving. He said they'll allow it once, maybe twice, then any other no-shows will lose their ability to park for the season. In my opinion, they should take a reservation with a refundable booking fee which you get back when you show up, much like some more popular restaurants do in metro areas.
> 
> Meanwhile, Sugarbush seems ready to go. Plan to arrive fashionably late, enough to miss the initial crowd, and grab some morning runs.


I got this email today and didn't realize the no show thing would become a problem so quickly.


----------



## WWF-VT (Dec 8, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i plan to arrive stupidly early to get firsts
> 
> killington tomorrow. sugarbush on Thursday on what tentatively looks like a little powder


Assume you have done your quarantine and PCR test.....


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 8, 2020)

Does anyone know if Lower Downspout will be open? It would be nice to have 2 options from super bravo back down to the base. It looks like they made snow on it, but I’m not sure if it will be open or not.


----------



## ducky (Dec 9, 2020)

Win to speak tonight:


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Sugarbush opening today from 12-4PM


----------



## slatham (Dec 9, 2020)

Yes Sugarbush written snow report should be more detailed, but they have updated the trail report and Lower Downspout is not open (plan for tomorrow I presume) but they are making snow on it.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 9, 2020)

My guess is that tomorrow they’ll groom out Snowball, Spring Fling and Lower Downspout. They’ll wait for the minor warmup to pass and then start making snow elsewhere. Most likely organgrinder and lower jester. That’s just my hunch.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 9, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> My guess is that tomorrow they’ll groom out Snowball, Spring Fling and Lower Downspout. They’ll wait for the minor warmup to pass and then start making snow elsewhere. Most likely organgrinder and lower jester. That’s just my hunch.


As well as off of Gate House


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2020)

Could simply be an oversight on the snow/trail report, but nowhere does it say they're making snow on any of the trails below Lower Downspout that would be needed to finish the connection to the base area. Technically Lower DS only runs from the base of Heaven's Gate to where Lower Jester comes out by the entrance to the Castlerock chair. To finish the run to the base, they need to make snow on that last section of Lower Jester below that point plus either Gondolier or Coffee Run. Entirely possible they've been doing that and just haven't mentioned it...but also entirely possible they only had capacity to do Lower DS itself with all the other trails they've been working on and will only start the rest of the route below that once they turn guns off elsewhere.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2020)

They are skiing now on 7 trails.


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## slatham (Dec 9, 2020)

Just got email announcing 12-4pm opening TODAY Wednesday 12/9.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2020)

Based on the amount of people skiing as shown on the web cam, I think they are open now.


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## tumbler (Dec 9, 2020)

Bravo corral looks like it is turned 90' so you enter from the parking lot side.  HG corral looks the same entry but much larger as every other lane is blocked off.


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## FBGM (Dec 9, 2020)

These guys ever hire a new mountain ops director?


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2020)

That's a good question.  I have not heard anything on that.  I wonder if Hammond is GM and also still has his Mountain ops responsibilities.


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## WinS (Dec 9, 2020)

That was me and some of John’s mangers checking out the conditions for noon opening. Downspout, Jester, Organgrinder nicely groomed with light snow falling. Organgrinder was superb, just be careful halfway down on skiers left. Snowball and Spring Fling have big whales with good quality snow. Plan is to groom them out tonight. With trails getting skied in a bit today and groomed tonight the morning conditions should be excellent. Making snow on Ripcord, but it is warming up through the weekend so I am sure snowmaking will be off. I know they have set up Lower Downspout through Coffee Run to get another way to the bottom when temps allow, hopefully early next week. Good to be back on skis after nearly nine months.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 9, 2020)

Just got back from taking a few laps between calls. The gunpowder on Snowball and Spring Fling was fun!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2020)

So happy to see that they opened.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2020)

I have been getting pics texted to me all afternoon.  Very frustrating to be working and have this happen.  DOAH!


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## Blurski (Dec 9, 2020)

I got caught with my paints down and did not pack the gear in the car, it cost me a day.
Last time that happens for the season.


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## Castlerockrisk (Dec 9, 2020)

The mountain skied great. Edge to edge cover on everything open with good consistent edge-able product. I noticed that the snow makers were constantly adjusting guns on ripcord and all of the guns were producing snow and not slurpie glop. Noticeably absent  was a wet gun or a big area of ice on the runs from a poorly adjusted gun. On snowball, jester and spring fling they added some good amount of air to the snow on the last layer and it remained dry and powdery all day. There are some large mounds “curing” below valley house upper on snowball and spring fling. Upper organ-grinder and downspout skied well but had some cookies. Jester, snowball and spring fling had no frozen ice balls. I hope that is is what we will get from John’s team now that he is the head chef, cook and bottlewasher. Well done Sugarbush!!

ps everyone was wearing a mask in the corals and offloading locations - it felt very safe.


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2020)

Interesting.  You are the 3rd person I have heard say this.  Hmm, maybe they have figured it out.  That would be awesome.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Interesting.  You are the 3rd person I have heard say this.  Hmm, maybe they have figured it out.  That would be awesome.


Also the 6” of relatively dry real snow probably didn’t hurt the product.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2020)

This will be of interest to folks:









						FAQ LIVE: Win Smith answers your questions about the pandemic ski season
					

'Hopefully people are going to act responsibly. And if they don't, that puts the entire sport in jeopardy,' Smith says.



					vtdigger.org


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2020)

I was actually just wondering if there were any updates on the John Egan situation...here's a letter direct from John:


			https://feeltheturn.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-sugarbush-community


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## Blurski (Dec 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I was actually just wondering if there were any updates on the John Egan situation...here's a letter direct from John:
> 
> 
> https://feeltheturn.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-sugarbush-community


Seems like he only fired off 1 barrel, but very telling.


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2020)

I'm sorry but this pisses me off.  I will miss seeing him.


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## ducky (Dec 10, 2020)

Lines were well managed today and this is much appreciated. An attendant was there to keep the flow from each line in a fair manner. Masks must be worn over the nose and mouth while in the base area, lift line, and lift ride all the way to the top and the supervisors were enforcing this. Once you're on snow at the top they can come off. "Don't be the reason we don't have a season" was the word. Someone in the line mentioned that Lake Tahoe just shot down to locals only today.

Heaven's Gate was about 15 minutes' wait around 10:00am. Valley House is running and no wait at Bravo.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Seems like he only fired off 1 barrel, but very telling.



I found this line to be particularly interesting..._"When my colleague’s promotion was announced from vice president of mountain operations and recreational services to president and COO, my phone rang off the hook with speculation that one of his first moves would be to eliminate my position."_

Why was this speculation so rampant? That thought would have never entered my mind, but I also don't know Hammond that well. 



Hawk said:


> I'm sorry but this pisses me off.  I will miss seeing him.



Agreed...Would things have been different if the transition happened during a normal year where there wasn't any major budget challenges expected?


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I found this line to be particularly interesting..._"When my colleague’s promotion was announced from vice president of mountain operations and recreational services to president and COO, my phone rang off the hook with speculation that one of his first moves would be to eliminate my position."_
> 
> Why was this speculation so rampant? That thought would have never entered my mind, but I also don't know Hammond that well.
> 
> ...


seems there was no love lost between Hammond and Egan.  I'd imagine Hammond working his ass off for 30 years while Egan got paid to ski might have something to do with it.  That being said, I hope they can work something out.  Egan to me is like a community leader.  The soul of sugarbush. I'm going to miss his presence even though his tangible work for the resort is impossible to quantify.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> seems there was no love lost between Hammond and Egan.  I'd imagine Hammond working his ass off for 30 years while Egan got paid to ski might have something to do with it.  That being said, I hope they can work something out.  Egan to me is like a community leader.  The soul of sugarbush. I'm going to miss his presence even though his tangible work for the resort is impossible to quantify.



Yea, I could see that. I was thinking something along those lines, but didn't want to really jump to any conclusions since I don't know Hammond well enough.

You're completely right that it is hard to put a firm ROI value on someone like Egan. I'd love to say I hope Hammond changes his mind one day, but even if he does, it may be too late at that point.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I was actually just wondering if there were any updates on the John Egan situation...here's a letter direct from John:
> 
> 
> https://feeltheturn.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-sugarbush-community



Well, this is pretty direct.....



> When my colleague’s promotion was announced from vice president of mountain operations and recreational services to president and COO, my phone rang off the hook with speculation that one of his first moves would be to eliminate my position.  So, when I was asked to meet with him on September 25th, I hoped it was about how I could come off zero hours to help with what this winter might bring. I was, however, not entirely shocked when he announced that “what you did for Sugarbush is no longer needed” and that he eliminated my position. I was terminated with no pay, no benefits, no health insurance, and ultimately, no severance package. I was, he said, “welcome” to submit a proposal of what I could do for Sugarbush next, but with no promise of benefits and certainly nothing to be had at the salary I had been making.



If I had to guess, it was a corporate decision made at Alterra headquarters in Colorado.  I imagine that they said, "so, what exactly do you do around here?"








That's the downside of a discount IKON pass.  Certainly common for a corporate ski resort.  Doesn't mean it is right, but it is what it is.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> If I had to guess, it was a corporate decision.



Supposedly from what I heard, Alterra claims it was a local management decision. Of course that doesn't mean Alterra didn't say to Hammond "find a way to trim $x out of your budget for this year. How you accomplish that is up to you." And then this was his answer.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Supposedly from what I heard, Alterra claims it was a local management decision. Of course that doesn't mean Alterra didn't say to Hammond "find a way to trim $x out of your budget for this year. How you accomplish that is up to you." And then this was his answer.


I think you summarized it very well.  SB was told to cut expenses.  Convenient excuse to blame local management.  Not really a good sign either if you are local management considering that we heard that Alterra was so good with local relations.  Who knows.  I am certainly less than impressed with Alterra after they appeared on the scene.  They certainly have done a good job of brainwashing folks and dodging accountability for a lot of the mess they have created here.  Based on what I have seen at Solitude I think that SB skiers are in for a rude awakening in the next few years.  Hopefully I am wrong.

Clearly I am suffering from ski withdrawal!


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## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I think you summarized it very well.  SB was told to cut expenses.  Convenient excuse to blame local management.  Not really a good sign either if you are local management considering that we heard that Alterra was so good with local relations.  Who knows.  I am certainly less than impressed with Alterra after they appeared on the scene.  If what I have seen at Solitude than SB skiers are in for a rude awakening in the next few years.


If Alterra is just saying cut expenses  and not being specific then local management is better off than Vail’s local management


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> If Alterra is just saying cut expenses  and not being specific then local management is better off than Vail’s local management


Well, my point is how Alterra is playing off of the decision to dodge being in the crosshairs of Egan fans.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2020)

man oh man does it feel good to be skiing on snow.

even with this limited terrain and no woods and etc., skiing is a blessing and i'm so grateful just to be here

killington yesterday - not crowded exactly but busier than i expected for an 'early season' Wednesday. two singles to the six pack (all good), two singles to the gondola (no thank you). snowdown stuff skied very well, specifically full house/royal flush and mouse run under the guns. far right of mouse trap with the thwack sticking out actually skied pretty good. they opened ridge run and powerline late in the day which were thin but fun. woods between the two were not skiable, but definitely piss and smoke pot-able

sugarbush today - again, not crowded, but busier than i expected. i came across a line at heavens gate at about 10:30 AM which LOOKED kind of nuts, but actually was not nuts. it was about an 8-10 minute wait. it was just well spaced and there isn't much room there so it snaked up hill. singles rode alone at sugarbush. spring fling first thing in the morning with the huge whales and untouched gun powder on the sides was so fun. after 11 every lift was ski on

Saturdays are going to be rough until they get more terrain open. i intend to sleep in, make breakfast, read a book, and hit the hill after 12. this is a luxury i NEVER have. the whole pace this trip is just mellow mellow mellow

people need to wear their masks. employees are enforcing but they need to walk this fine line of customer service. almost everyone is all good but some people are not, whether inadvertently or intentionally. encountered an intentional outspoken anti masker at killington. i refused to ride with him and waited for the next chair. the liftie didn't do anything about him. i'm not all that concerned about outdoor transmission tho standing on a lift line for 5+ minutes isn't ideal. really i just want skiing to not be shut down, so fuck that guy and his anti mask cohort. 'freedom' my dick.

great airbnb in waitsfield 5 min from the commercial strip. $90 a night for 12 nights. pretty unbeatable. would be killer if this was a rocking December, but I'll conclude how i started - skiing is an absolute blessing

i went to hill farmstead and spent $320. half of that is Christmas presents/orders for friends. so i'm here alone with $160 worth of hill farmstead.


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## jaybird (Dec 10, 2020)

First Win .. now John .. BIG losses.
No fan of Corporate Skiing any longer.
A crappy year .. Ides of March to now..
Ski you tomorrow .. Finally ✌


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 10, 2020)

From John Egan 


			https://feeltheturn.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-sugarbush-community


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## Cobbold (Dec 11, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> From John Egan
> 
> 
> https://feeltheturn.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-sugarbush-community


Feel bad for mr. Eagan, hopefully Stowe Mtn resort has a half brain and understands what mr Egan means to New England skiers and hires the man.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Feel bad for mr. Eagan, hopefully Stowe Mtn resort has a half brain and understands what mr Egan means to New England skiers and hires the man.


So what was the last movie he was in?  

And if SB let him go I certainly don't see him at Stowe.  Not with Vail.  I'd say MRG, but they don't have the $$$.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2020)

What exactly to John do at Sugarbush?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> What exactly to John do at Sugarbush?


I can't speak to the last few years, but he was generally a "brand ambassador" of sorts.  He used to do private lessons and was involved with a kids program for a while.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 11, 2020)

ie, he got paid well to be a figurehead with no real job aside from skiing with high paying or important guests


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 11, 2020)

Its a shitty situation but when the bottom line is in question positions like his are expendable.  It sort of sounds like there might be more to this story, but whatever.  In a lot of ways he should consider himself lucky to have had the job he did for as long as he did.

I agree that some other mountain should look to add him , but again with 2020 the way it ended and potentially a covid forced lean year  its got to be hard for anyone to pay for that sort of position.


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So what was the last movie he was in?
> 
> And if SB let him go I certainly don't see him at Stowe.  Not with Vail.  I'd say MRG, but they don't have the $$$.


He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


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## jaybird (Dec 11, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


.. lots of em


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## flakeydog (Dec 11, 2020)

what's with the perpetual earthquake on the webcam?  Getting seasick watching it.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 11, 2020)

Ripcord opening tomorrow per snow report.


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## machski (Dec 11, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


And if I got it right, his brother


Smellytele said:


> He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


Isn't his brother out in Big Sky now?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ripcord opening tomorrow per snow report.



yea, looked just about ready today, they just need to roll it out, push a bit of the whales downhill, fill like one dippy water bar. its good to go. 

concerned about a major shit show tomorrow tho. I'm probably not going to turn up until noon


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, looked just about ready today, they just need to roll it out, push a bit of the whales downhill, fill like one dippy water bar. its good to go.
> 
> concerned about a major shit show tomorrow tho. I'm probably not going to turn up until noon



There's no plans to roll it out tonight according to the snow report...


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2020)

machski said:


> And if I got it right, his brother
> 
> Isn't his brother out in Big Sky now?


yes his brother Dan and he does seem to be out there in Big Sky. Not sure how long he has been out there but he has been hosting some WM movies here in NH for the last few years (obviously not this year) wonder if next year he will.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 11, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Ripcord opening tomorrow per snow report.


Maybe theres a chance they open up spillsville.  It's pretty much all grass underneath. Killington had natural trails open with less snow on them.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 11, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Maybe theres a chance they open up spillsville.  It's pretty much all grass underneath. Killington had natural trails open with less snow on them.


One can only hope


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2020)

He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


Smellytele said:


> He was actually in this year's Warren Miller movie.


Really?  I haven’t seen a WM movie in 2 years.  We’ve boycotted them because of the terrible quality and over the top product placement.


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## jaybird (Dec 12, 2020)

Thank Moseley for that 
.. the Queen of the Jelly Roll


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2020)

not that i am surprised at 10:50 AM on the first Saturday of the season, but the webcam shows quite the line at both bravo and valley house, and i don't even want to think about what heavens gate looks like. i may just take today off altogether and go for a drive or something.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> not that i am surprised at 10:50 AM on the first Saturday of the season, but the webcam shows quite the line at both bravo and valley house, and i don't even want to think about what heavens gate looks like. i may just take today off altogether and go for a drive or something.


Just looked at all the webcams...HG looks worse than the base for sure (and it is a slow lift so the lines won't move as quickly). Super Bravo doesn't look too bad considering how spaced out everyone is and how fast the lift is. The amount of skiers coming down Spring Fling however looks terrible. That's the problem with only 1 route to the base open...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2020)

yea i just skied 20k vertical per day for the first 3 days of the season after 9 months off skis. my legs actually feel great, but i still think a rest day is fine considering the crowds, terrain options, and that i'm here for the next 8 consecutive days. biking this fall was a huge good idea.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 12, 2020)

HG is awful - line extends further uphill


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2020)

lol thanks, ya, day off.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2020)

This is why I don't typically ski weekends early season even in a normal year...just not enough open terrain/lifts to spread people out and make it enjoyable.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2020)

No lines at the base now on the webcams...HG is still pretty crowded though:


I always hear people stating that the length of skis helps people "naturally" social distance in lift lines. When everyone is standing sideways though, that argument pretty much goes right out the window...


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## JimG. (Dec 12, 2020)

Keep posting pictures like that and eventually someone with an authority complex may just shut your mountain down...or the whole state.

I guess it doesn't really matter since it's a webcam available to everyone. If they were serious about the virus there either:
1) wouldn't be a line like that or
2) would be a dark webcam.


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## kingslug (Dec 12, 2020)

Pics on public forums don't help though.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 12, 2020)

cdskier said:


> No lines at the base now on the webcams...HG is still pretty crowded though:
> View attachment 49667
> 
> I always hear people stating that the length of skis helps people "naturally" social distance in lift lines. When everyone is standing sideways though, that argument pretty much goes right out the window...


It’s honestly ridiculous. I had two guys without masks just crowd right next to me. Later a line manager told them to put their masks on and they said bullshit and skied away. There’s gotta be a bit more distancing and better mask compliance if people want to see this season last.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Keep posting pictures like that and eventually someone with an authority complex may just shut your mountain down...or the whole state.
> 
> I guess it doesn't really matter since it's a webcam available to everyone. If they were serious about the virus there either:
> 1) wouldn't be a line like that or
> 2) would be a dark webcam.



I agree with number 1 and hope they're seeing the problems themselves (this is their first weekend day after all) and thinking of ways to address it...but I don't agree with the suggestion of covering up/hiding problems via suggestion #2.

Early season is tough with limited terrain/lift options. From a lift capacity standpoint overall, honestly right now SB has enough capacity for the number of people that appear to be on the mountain. The problem is the lower mountain lifts have excess capacity because a lot of people are choosing to instead use the 1 upper mountain lift (which is where most of your open terrain is...so it makes sense that's where people want to be). You have about triple the uphill capacity on the lower mountain with the 2 open lifts that you do on the upper mountain with the 1 lift open there. Yet downhill wise you have nearly the exact opposite with 3 distinct routes from the top and only 1 on the bottom.

People need to start taking this a little more seriously. I think the ski areas themselves are trying...but I really don't think enough of the people visiting and skiing are taking it seriously enough.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Keep posting pictures like that and eventually someone with an authority complex may just shut your mountain down...or the whole state.
> 
> I guess it doesn't really matter since it's a webcam available to everyone. If they were serious about the virus there either:
> 1) wouldn't be a line like that or
> 2) would be a dark webcam.


I'm surprised any ski area would have a webcam pointed at a lift this winter.  No good could possibly come from that.


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## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> I'm surprised any ski area would have a webcam pointed at a lift this winter.  No good could possibly come from that.


Yes keeps some away


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## Powder Whore (Dec 12, 2020)

Is  anyone really shocked that there's a lift line at HG? Its Sat of opening weekend!!! I love how people complain about crowds. If you are at the mountain then  you are part of the crowd  you're complaining  about. Kind of ironic.


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## Blurski (Dec 12, 2020)

Been there the past 2 days, have not seen you know who on the front lines talking to people. Wonder why!


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## Blurski (Dec 12, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> I'm surprised any ski area would have a webcam pointed at a lift this winter.  No good could possibly come from that.


Hope crazy Sara does not get a hold of this pictures, she will be banging on the governor’s door


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## NYDB (Dec 12, 2020)

Meh...  its outdoors with sun and wind.  Not the problem.  When we start seeing pics of crowded bars or condo parties with 40 people, then we'll be talkin.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Keep posting pictures like that and eventually someone with an authority complex may just shut your mountain down...or the whole state.
> 
> I guess it doesn't really matter since it's a webcam available to everyone. If they were serious about the virus there either:
> 1) wouldn't be a line like that or
> 2) would be a dark webcam.


Good point


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2020)

Blurski said:


> Hope crazy Sara does not get a hold of this pictures, she will be banging on the governor’s door


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> HG is awful - line extends further uphill


Might I suggest:


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 12, 2020)

She's probably the one who started standing sideways


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## skiur (Dec 12, 2020)

Thats how K looked last Saturday.  K was empty today.  Must be the ikon effect.


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## Blurski (Dec 12, 2020)

As far as making your car your base lodge, be nice if they would instruct the parking attendants to let you leave a little more room between cars, at least enough to fully open the car door. Friday I thought they were doing this but today he looked a little angry when I kept some space.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2020)

skiur said:


> Thats how K looked last Saturday.  K was empty today.  Must be the ikon effect.



FWIW Alterra's "unlimited" Utah resort, Solitude, had its first Saturday of the season.  This morning they had maybe 3" of new snow--6 trails and three lifts.  The traffic was backed up for miles and caused a massive problem.  I wish I got a picture--for those familiar with the area, the traffic was from the mouth of BCC all the way back and onto 215.  Two lines of it.  Unreal.  Of course Alterra will tell you it is not IKON.  





__ https://www.facebook.com/fox13newsutah/posts/10158748945985586


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## keyser soze (Dec 12, 2020)

People who have Ikon don't want to use up days at Killington of Alta/Snowbird on marginal conditions days, but they still want to get out so they go to the place with unlimited days.  That was my plan if I made it up this weekend.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 13, 2020)

Mild day and then we get real good snow making temps the rest of the week.  That and getting mt Ellen online friday will spread the crowds.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2020)

They lost a ton of snow overnight and to call this current precip sleet would be charitable. Testing my new outerwear for waterproofing. This is what season passes are for. Skiing is a blessing, just keep telling myself that skiing is a blessibg


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2020)

Actually not so bad. Last post was after first run down ripcord, which was bad. They never groomed it out, people skied the snowmaking snow yesterday and now there’s bare spots and exposed bars and gloppy snow

However, organgrinder is wet but super slarvable and fun. And there’s no line at all at heavens gate as of 10 am. I will lap organgrinder for a few hours and recognize my immense privilege to be alive and skiing

and for the moment precip has stopped


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 13, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Mild day and then we get real good snow making temps the rest of the week.  That and getting mt Ellen online friday will spread the crowds.


I don' think opening up Ellen is going to matter that much.  The problem with the lift system as sugarbush is it is to tight to the base area.  I don't know what they are going to do at Gatehouse quad corral  there is no room at the corral for social distancing.  The line will surely go past the magic carpet.   Saturday at  heaven gate was awful.  If Sugarbush had downspout open top to bottom, you wouldn't be able to get thru the line at Heavens Gate to continue skiing.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2020)

There’s no one here today and the snow is soft and fun. I’ve already skied 15k vert. Rain stopped. Glad I skipped yesterday


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## JimG. (Dec 13, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I will lap organgrinder for a few hours and recognize my immense privilege to be alive and skiing


Love the gratitude.

Gratitude is power, makes you realize how good you have it.


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don' think opening up Ellen is going to matter that much.  The problem with the lift system as sugarbush is it is to tight to the base area.  I don't know what they are going to do at Gatehouse quad corral  there is no room at the corral for social distancing.  The line will surely go past the magic carpet.   Saturday at  heaven gate was awful.  If Sugarbush had downspout open top to bottom, you wouldn't be able to get thru the line at Heavens Gate to continue skiing.



Yes, but don't forget they're supposedly limiting capacity to a "busy Friday". I can't really recall long GH lines on any busy Fridays that I've ever been there. Although I'm also curious to see how successful they are at limiting capacity simply by limiting the day ticket portion of skiers and eliminating discounts like the Quad packs. With there being more Ikon passholders than there ever were standalone SB passholders, it will be interesting to see whether the "no reservations needed for passholders" strategy works.


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## Tin (Dec 13, 2020)

Good stuff krusty. Them having Organgrinder and Ripcord even open is better than anything else happening in the east.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 13, 2020)

Wouldn't it elevate congestion at the base if they took bravos corral and had it go down towards the road next to clay brook and the building on the right side of the road?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 13, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don' think opening up Ellen is going to matter that much.  The problem with the lift system as sugarbush is it is to tight to the base area.  I don't know what they are going to do at Gatehouse quad corral  there is no room at the corral for social distancing.  The line will surely go past the magic carpet.   Saturday at  heaven gate was awful.  If Sugarbush had downspout open top to bottom, you wouldn't be able to get thru the line at Heavens Gate to continue skiing.


The reality is, if they did have Downspout open to the base, the line for Heaven’s Gate probably wouldn’t have been as bad. Some of the people who were waiting in line weren’t doing so because they wanted to ski off the summit, but rather they had no other choice after skiing downspout.


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## Not Sure (Dec 13, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW Alterra's "unlimited" Utah resort, Solitude, had its first Saturday of the season.  This morning they had maybe 3" of new snow--6 trails and three lifts.  The traffic was backed up for miles and caused a massive problem.  I wish I got a picture--for those familiar with the area, the traffic was from the mouth of BCC all the way back and onto 215.  Two lines of it.  Unreal.  Of course Alterra will tell you it is not IKON.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO " Solitude"


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> LMAO " Solitude"


Yeah, time to rename it.


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## flakeydog (Dec 13, 2020)

Don’t believe the hype, skiing was good both days. Sat actually saw hosts telling folks getting off SBravo to heed the lines on  HG. Skied SB for a few runs then went down to HG and all was good.  Line manageable and skiing was good. You can tell the lifties don’t love the mask routine but I hope they come around. It sucks for all of us but the dude 1 ft away from guests bumping chairs should prob just get over it an wear the darned thing. Anyway  just as I have been reading here, things clear out later in the day and All was well. Ditto for Sunday. Great skiing, rain cleared out and what a good day.

Looking at all of the bad in the world right now, it was so nice to be ripping turns at Sugarbush these last 2 days. It is so nice to leave the problems of the world behind for a brief period as I spent some quality time on the mountain. Despite the lack of snow, I still feel blessed. Let’s keep this going!!


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Looking at all of the bad in the world right now, it was so nice to be ripping turns at Sugarbush these last 2 days. It is so nice to leave the problems of the world behind for a brief period as I spent some quality time on the mountain. Despite the lack of snow, I still feel blessed. Let’s keep this going!!



This should be the post of the year.

I too got out skiing, not in VT, this weekend and felt the same way.

Thank you


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Don’t believe the hype, skiing was good both days. Sat actually saw hosts telling folks getting off SBravo to heed the lines on  HG. Skied SB for a few runs then went down to HG and all was good.  Line manageable and skiing was good. You can tell the lifties don’t love the mask routine but I hope they come around. It sucks for all of us but the dude 1 ft away from guests bumping chairs should prob just get over it an wear the darned thing. Anyway  just as I have been reading here, things clear out later in the day and All was well. Ditto for Sunday. Great skiing, rain cleared out and what a good day.
> 
> Looking at all of the bad in the world right now, it was so nice to be ripping turns at Sugarbush these last 2 days. It is so nice to leave the problems of the world behind for a brief period as I spent some quality time on the mountain. Despite the lack of snow, I still feel blessed. Let’s keep this going!!



one lifty in particular at heavens gate was not wearing a mask repeatedly, and i will tattletale his ass if i see it again. it was every time i saw him, both days. hes also the only one who made me take my backpack off. need to catch a nametag.


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2020)

Skiing right now is the only thing that lets me get away from all this crap. Got in 3 days at Hunter so far. WIsh I was at Stowe though...or SB.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2020)

Next weekend they will have gate house open, downspout and gondolier to the bottom and also Mt. Ellen.  If you think that will not have a positive impact you are wrong.  I will also agree that posting pictures serves no purpose other than to hurt our chances of staying open.  This is especially odd if you live up there and plan to ski a bunch.  Be smart.  Use your head.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2020)

i know they are saying they will have gatehouse open, but it is literally grass right now. they've got much work to do.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> one lifty in particular at heavens gate was not wearing a mask repeatedly, and i will tattletale his ass if i see it again. it was every time i saw him, both days. hes also the only one who made me take my backpack off. need to catch a nametag.


I got his name tag but don’t necessarily want to expose him unless he does it again. He’s the lift operations coordinator or something.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2020)

The backpack thing is something they have to doing for a long time.  I ski with a pack sometimes and have been asked to take it off.  Not that big a deal for me.  As for the mask, that can be corrected and probably already has.  They do watch this site.  I know that for a fact.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i know they are saying they will have gatehouse open, but it is literally grass right now. they've got much work to do.


Yes, but with good temps it would only take a few days. So still within the realm of possibility. And I fully agree with others that opening GH and also having lower DS open will help take pressure off HG. As will ME opening next weekend. That's a lot more terrain (and lifts) to spread people out across.


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## El Bishop (Dec 14, 2020)

Anyone else only seeing a limited number of webcams on the updated app?  Only "LP Base Area," Golf Course and Snow Stakes.  No HG etc.  In Winter mode. Perhaps that's intentional.  Can't really make out the line length.  But that's what we use it for.  Older versions of the app still have the cams even though I don't think they're active.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2020)

I said this exact same thing a couple of weeks ago.  I actually emailed guest services and they responded that they were upgrading the system.  Some are saying that the IKON app has more cameras but I downloaded it and can see basically the same 4 cameras.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

El Bishop said:


> Anyone else only seeing a limited number of webcams on the updated app?  Only "LP Base Area," Golf Course and Snow Stakes.  No HG etc.  In Winter mode. Perhaps that's intentional.  Can't really make out the line length.  But that's what we use it for.  Older versions of the app still have the cams even though I don't think they're active.



Yes...newer version shows more limited number. The older version still shows all the cams and I'd say most are active as long as you go to live video mode instead of just the static screenshot (HG, GH, LP, ME base cams are all active on the old version...CR and the ME park cams weren't last I saw).


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## HowieT2 (Dec 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes, but with good temps it would only take a few days. So still within the realm of possibility. And I fully agree with others that opening GH and also having lower DS open will help take pressure off HG. As will ME opening next weekend. That's a lot more terrain (and lifts) to spread people out across.


really good temps through saturday.  They should be able to make significant headway on gatehouse.


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## flakeydog (Dec 14, 2020)

This on the website today:

_Webcams:
We are currently in the process of upgrading our webcams and updating their locations to better benefit our guests. In response to COVID-19, lift lines have been reworked to promote social distancing, and we no longer felt our lift line webcams provided an accurate representation of wait times and mountain capacity. We expect these new webcams to be available soon and give a better depiction of mountain conditions._

Would be nice to have some way of gauging the lines.  I often use these to "social distance" myself to somewhere with a shorter line.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> This on the website today:
> 
> _Webcams:
> We are currently in the process of upgrading our webcams and updating their locations to better benefit our guests. In response to COVID-19, lift lines have been reworked to promote social distancing, and we no longer felt our lift line webcams provided an accurate representation of wait times and mountain capacity. We expect these new webcams to be available soon and give a better depiction of mountain conditions._
> ...



I use them the same way (or at least used to). This sounds like code for "we don't want people to see what's really happening because we know it won't look good".

That said, SB should find out how K is doing it in their app with the lift wait times. Their app shows the estimated wait times at all open lifts. For example the K app right now shows a 0-2 minute wait at all open lifts other than the Gondola which has a 2-5 minute wait. That seems like a good system to help people do what they used to do with the lift line cams at SB.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2020)

See, I told you they are listening.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes, but with good temps it would only take a few days. So still within the realm of possibility. And I fully agree with others that opening GH and also having lower DS open will help take pressure off HG. As will ME opening next weekend. That's a lot more terrain (and lifts) to spread people out across.


If they have lower downspout open to the base it won't make a difference.  The only good terrain open on the mountain is off of Heaven Gate.  Adding lower downspout isn't going to excite anyone.  It's basically a runout to the bottom.  They really need to open up terrain off of bravo.  IE domino, lower OG and bird land.  This would take traffic off of Heaven Gate.  Gatehouse opening won't elevate the crowd on bravo or HG, they will only have beginner terrain open.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 14, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> If they have lower downspout open to the base it won't make a difference.  The only good terrain open on the mountain is off of Heaven Gate.  Adding lower downspout isn't going to excite anyone.  It's basically a runout to the bottom.  They really need to open up terrain off of bravo.  IE domino, lower OG and bird land.  This would take traffic off of Heaven Gate.  Gatehouse opening won't elevate the crowd on bravo or HG, they will only have beginner terrain open.


I think what he means is that if someone sees an extremely long line at Heaven’s Gate, they have the choice to bypass it and ski to the base where the lines are most likely shorter. And to your point, I think more trails off of Bravo will also help ease crowds at Heaven’s Gate. As I mentioned in a post a little back, if for some reason you skied downspout, organgrinder or ripcord and didn’t know how long the line was, you had to wait in it no matter what.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think what he means is that if someone sees an extremely long line at Heaven’s Gate, they have the choice to bypass it and ski to the base where the lines are most likely shorter. And to your point, I think more trails off of Bravo will also help ease crowds at Heaven’s Gate. As I mentioned in a post a little back, if for some reason you skied downspout, organgrinder or ripcord and didn’t know how long the line was, you had to wait in it no matter what.


Exactly...And count me as someone that has skied right by the HG lift line plenty of times in the past when it had a long line and I knew other lifts didn't. I'd sooner go lap Snowball/Spring Fling for a bit rather than wait in a long line at HG (although if it was a powder day then that would be a different story).


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## djd66 (Dec 14, 2020)

+1


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes, but don't forget they're supposedly limiting capacity to a "busy Friday". I can't really recall long GH lines on any busy Fridays that I've ever been there. Although I'm also curious to see how successful they are at limiting capacity simply by limiting the day ticket portion of skiers and eliminating discounts like the Quad packs. With there being more Ikon passholders than there ever were standalone SB passholders, it will be interesting to see whether the "no reservations needed for passholders" strategy works.



Lift lines are going to be a worse than usual shit show on weekends at LP.  Sugarbush has traditionally had a high percentage of skiers and riders that were passholders and Ikon is just going to put more people on the hill and in lift lines.  Forget about the usual uphill capacity when you need to limit the number of people per chair.


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## jaybird (Dec 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I use them the same way (or at least used to). This sounds like code for "we don't want people to see what's really happening because we know it won't look good".
> 
> That said, SB should find out how K is doing it in their app with the lift wait times. Their app shows the estimated wait times at all open lifts. For example the K app right now shows a 0-2 minute wait at all open lifts other than the Gondola which has a 2-5 minute wait. That seems like a good system to help people do what they used to do with the lift line cams at SB.


No thank you to 2-5 min at the K1 slab ..


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Lift lines are going to be a worse than usual shit show on weekends at LP.  Sugarbush has traditionally had a high percentage of skiers and riders that were passholders and Ikon is just going to put more people on the hill and in lift lines.  Forget about the usual uphill capacity when you need to limit the number of people per chair.


Exactly why I was surprised they didn't think there was a need for a reservation system. Although maybe the "high percentage" being passholders that they always talked about isn't as high as we think it is. It could just be higher compared to their peers. The travel restrictions could also stop at least some percentage of people as well from visiting...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> This on the website today:
> 
> _Webcams:
> We are currently in the process of upgrading our webcams and updating their locations to better benefit our guests. In response to COVID-19, lift lines have been reworked to promote social distancing, and we no longer felt our lift line webcams provided an accurate representation of wait times and mountain capacity. We expect these new webcams to be available soon and give a better depiction of mountain conditions._
> ...


Looks like someone read the comments in here.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2020)

As to web cams, I find this one very helpful


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## WinS (Dec 15, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> If they have lower downspout open to the base it won't make a difference.  The only good terrain open on the mountain is off of Heaven Gate.  Adding lower downspout isn't going to excite anyone.  It's basically a runout to the bottom.  They really need to open up terrain off of bravo.  IE domino, lower OG and bird land.  This would take traffic off of Heaven Gate.  Gatehouse opening won't elevate the crowd on bravo or HG, they will only have beginner terrain open.


It is important to get Lower Downspout open to the bottom for two reasons. First, it does allows someone to bail out if they do not like the line or need to get to the bottom quicker than riding HG up and going down that way. But the more important reason is in case HG goes on windhold or has a mechanical. One would not want everyone walking down. It is important to get GH open for beginner and intermediate skiers, especially for the Holidays.  They aren’ t the Alpine Zone participants for the most part but there are a lot and we saw that last year when GH was able to open on the first day. Many skied earlier than they ever have. Pushover and Slowepoke given their acreage come in quickly. 48 hours of really cold temps can get them in. With this week‘s temps it makes sense to go their after the second way down is completed.

Hawk is absolutely correct about pictures. There  are some who are not thrilled about ski resorts being open and looking for examples. After six days,  my observation is that almost all are behaving well and wearing masks,  and I have observed lifties asking those who aren‘t to pull them up and people are doing it.

Final topic. Every ski area I know want lifties to ask people to take off their back packs. This is for safety. A few years ago at a western resort some had their pack caught getting off and chimed to death as I recall.

Hope the Euro model is the right one and we get some good snow with the weeks Nor’Easter.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 15, 2020)

I wear a pack and take it off when getting on the chair.  Memory of wearing the pack whilst on a chair with no bar at Alta and feeling like I was imminently going to fall to my demise.

Nam trending north too.


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## kingslug (Dec 15, 2020)

Even more fun when your pack snags on the chair while you are trying to get off. I managed to rip the strap off before I went for a little ride.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> It is important to get Lower Downspout open to the bottom for two reasons. First, it does allows someone to bail out if they do not like the line or need to get to the bottom quicker than riding HG up and going down that way. But the more important reason is in case HG goes on windhold or has a mechanical. One would not want everyone walking down. It is important to get GH open for beginner and intermediate skiers, especially for the Holidays.  They aren’ t the Alpine Zone participants for the most part but there are a lot and we saw that last year when GH was able to open on the first day. Many skied earlier than they ever have. Pushover and Slowepoke given their acreage come in quickly. 48 hours of really cold temps can get them in. With this week‘s temps it makes sense to go their after the second way down is completed.
> 
> Hawk is absolutely correct about pictures. There  are some who are not thrilled about ski resorts being open and looking for examples. After six days,  my observation is that almost all are behaving well and wearing masks,  and I have observed lifties asking those who aren‘t to pull them up and people are doing it.
> 
> ...



my comment about the backpack was really more made to identify the mask-less liftie, and less a comment on removing the backpack. i do find it annoying, but i get it.


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 16, 2020)

Anyone know why the snowguns are off over at Gate House?  No snow being made over there today.


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## WinS (Dec 16, 2020)

bumpcrasher said:


> Anyone know why the snowguns are off over at Gate House?  No snow being made over there today.


I actually do speaking with someone from Mt Ops today. They were finishing on Downspout, Lower Jester and Coffee run and the base areas with guns firing on stage 4 in these temps and using all the water capacity. GMP is curtailing them for a few hours tonight.  After that they will be switching over to Pushover on the GH side as the other trails should be done.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 16, 2020)

WinS said:


> I actually do speaking with someone from Mt Ops today. They were finishing on Downspout, Lower Jester and Coffee run and the base areas with guns firing on stage 4 in these temps and using all the water capacity. GMP is curtailing them for a few hours tonight.  After that they will be switching over to Pushover on the GH side as the other trails should be done.


The amount of progress made this week seems to be pretty great. This weekend will be substantially different from the last. ME being open should help a lot with crowds.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 17, 2020)

Any idea if Lower Downspout could possibly open this by this weekend? It would be great to have an option to bypass the Heaven’s Gate lift line and to be able to ski Ripcord/Spillsville and not have to ride Heaven’s Gate up again.


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## cdskier (Dec 17, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Any idea if Lower Downspout could possibly open this by this weekend? It would be great to have an option to bypass the Heaven’s Gate lift line and to be able to ski Ripcord/Spillsville and not have to ride Heaven’s Gate up again.



It is open as of some point this afternoon, the trail report just isn't reflecting that for some reason. The snow report says this though: "Ripcord has bumps and snowmaking whales for terrain fun and *the way down from Heaven's Gate is open.*" The trail report does list Coffee run as open as well as Lower Jester as partially open. You'd have no way to get to either of those if Lower DS wasn't open as well...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 17, 2020)

the snow gradient on this was crazy. i skied stratton all day, they reported 24. okemo reported 36. killington 25. i got to Granville gulf and the snow got noticeably less. got back to my airbnb in waitsfield and there's only 5" on the deck. crazy. i wanted to go back down to pico for opening day tomorrow but parking is sold out, so i think i will be at mount ellen. i cant do that drive to magic again. so glad i got the hotel last night in manchester, but it just took me over 3 hours to get back from stratton to waitsfield on 100, with lots of un fun skids and 30 mph stretches


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 18, 2020)

killington opened parking reservations early this morning, but after the big day of powder skiing and long icy driving yesterday, i didn't feel super motivated to drive an hour+ and deal with what i assume are going to be pretty big crowds at killington, so i just took it easy and did about 2.5 hours at lincoln peak. the ~5" made a big difference, and everything is skiing pretty nice. ripcord is bumped up, but still has big whales. organgrinder skied great. snowball/fling also very nice. but the treat was twist, which was not open but was totally skiable. the top was gorgeous, untouched, no bottoming out, silky smooth. the lower half had some chunk and bumps and snakes, but that's why we have rock skis. 

i will prob ski mount ellens one route tomorrow, to avoid crowds again, and then magic sunday. 11 ski days out of 12 days in Vermont. good start to my season this.


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## mikec142 (Dec 19, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killington opened parking reservations early this morning, but after the big day of powder skiing and long icy driving yesterday, i didn't feel super motivated to drive an hour+ and deal with what i assume are going to be pretty big crowds at killington, so i just took it easy and did about 2.5 hours at lincoln peak. the ~5" made a big difference, and everything is skiing pretty nice. ripcord is bumped up, but still has big whales. organgrinder skied great. snowball/fling also very nice. but the treat was twist, which was not open but was totally skiable. the top was gorgeous, untouched, no bottoming out, silky smooth. the lower half had some chunk and bumps and snakes, but that's why we have rock skis.
> 
> i will prob ski mount ellens one route tomorrow, to avoid crowds again, and then magic sunday. 11 ski days out of 12 days in Vermont. good start to my season this.


Super jealous.  Skied Windham today.  First day of the season.  Actually first time since 2/2/20 when I tore a calf muscle.  Surprised how tentative I was today.  But c'est la vie.  Can't wait to get back to SB.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Does anyone know if the shuttle bus is running? I checked the schedule online and it was still last year’s schedule.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 19, 2020)

@WinS - do you have any insight you would be willing to share regarding patrol's willingness to open terrain in marginal conditions? one thing i always loved about sugarbush during your tenure was that there was a very noticeable 'let them ski it' vibe to opening terrain. I've skied castlerock and paradise in some extremely sketchy thin conditions. you guys would mark it as sketchy at the top and say ski at your own risk. this week, it seemed to me patrol was holding back on some things that would have been open previously. specifically, paradise was a little sketchy but had enough snow to be open (maybe they want to dissuade people from hiking towards castlerock and the church?), twist and moonshine would have been open, and lower snowball is closed right now but 100% tracked out and packed down from people accessing via eden, but still officially closed. not complaining, just curious. cheers.


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## WinS (Dec 19, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Does anyone know if the shuttle bus is running? I checked the schedule online and it was still last year’s schedule.





KustyTheKlown said:


> @WinS - do you have any insight you would be willing to share regarding patrol's willingness to open terrain in marginal conditions? one thing i always loved about sugarbush during your tenure was that there was a very noticeable 'let them ski it' vibe to opening terrain. I've skied castlerock and paradise in some extremely sketchy thin conditions. you guys would mark it as sketchy at the top and say ski at your own risk. this week, it seemed to me patrol was holding back on some things that would have been open previously. specifically, paradise was a little sketchy but had enough snow to be open (maybe they want to dissuade people from hiking towards castlerock and the church?), twist and moonshine would have been open, and lower snowball is closed right now but 100% tracked out and packed down from people accessing via eden, but still officially closed. not complaining, just curious. cheers.


As far as I know nothing has changed. Same team that made the calls for me, With only 4“ the first down might enjoy it, but not enough to take traffic and hold up. All the trails have water bars which can be very hazardous if not covered properly.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 19, 2020)

thanks for the reply. yeah, admittedly twist runout and snowball had water bars to navigate.


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## Howitzer (Dec 19, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks for the reply. yeah, admittedly twist runout and snowball had water bars to navigate.


Posting on public forums about skiing closed trails doesn't help get them open any sooner.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Lower Snowball was roped off, but a patroller was letting people access it via eden. It had pretty good snow at the top and bottom. Spillsville was good since it had no ice, but definitely not something you want to ski if you care about your skis. Tons of rocks, grass, roots, etc, but I was glad to see a natural trail open. Overall today was pretty good, especially on some of the early runs at Ellen. Rim Run and Elbow were great. Lincoln in the afternoon was good, but spring fling, organgrinder, downspout and ripcord were pretty much sheets of ice, which is typical.


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## mikec142 (Dec 19, 2020)

Anyone know anything about the Forum condo complex?  Positives, negatives?


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## HowieT2 (Dec 19, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Super jealous.  Skied Windham today.  First day of the season.  Actually first time since 2/2/20 when I tore a calf muscle.  Surprised how tentative I was today.  But c'est la vie.  Can't wait to get back to SB.


Skied killington.  First turns since last February.  Felt great.  Crowds manageable.  Great snow.  Beautiful day.


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## shadyjay (Dec 19, 2020)

According to this evening's snow report, looks like Lower Snowball has been added to the mix.  

I will admit that my years working on the team, I noticed the ski patrol dropped the ropes quicker than other resorts down south would have.  Perhaps its the better ability of skiers up here.  Patrol knew that by putting up a few discos (thin cover, etc), you could deter those who wanted to stick with groomers, but also give those with the ability a bit of a challenge.  Going on that assumption, I wouldn't tread on any trail with a rope up.  If its closed, it's closed for a reason.  And I definitely wouldn't be advertising here about ducking ropes.

One of my best runs was on my birthday a few years ago... after slashing though Murphys, I got to the entrance to Lower Birdland right when the rope was dropped.  It was go time.  I was so tired from working the previous night snowmaking, but had an absolute blast heading down, and hearing the cheers from the crowd on Bravo above...Win included!  Then, flat ass into that big waterbar near the bottom.  Still, one of the best runs I've ever had on that trail, and what a great memory!


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 20, 2020)

Is the Bravo cam a previous still shot they put up?


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## Hawk (Dec 21, 2020)

The Forums are directly below me.  They seldom come up for sale.  I might have changed now with the ongoing sell-a-thon.  Anybody that I have talk to says they are in good condition and  work well.  Units have 3 to 5 bedrooms .  They have been on the pricy side at  any ware from $350K to $550K.  I know that some of the well known old time Sugarbush people have lived there.  With a very short walk they are ski in/Ski out.  Used to be better before the Rice brook and Gadd brook buildings were put in.  They have a garage so that is awesome.  I think wood is supplied as part of the fees.  Not sure of the Monthly/Quarterly HOA expenses.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The Forums are directly below me.  They seldom come up for sale.  I might have changed now with the ongoing sell-a-thon.  Anybody that I have talk to says they are in good condition and  work well.  Units have 3 to 5 bedrooms .  They have been on the pricy side at  any ware from $350K to $550K.  I know that some of the well known old time Sugarbush people have lived there.  With a very short walk they are ski in/Ski out.  Used to be better before the Rice brook and Gadd brook buildings were put in.  They have a garage so that is awesome.  I think wood is supplied as part of the fees.  Not sure of the Monthly/Quarterly HOA expenses.


They probably aren't all like this since it was a remodel but they look pretty sweet: https://newschoolbuilders.com/portfolio-condo-forum-sugarbush.php


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 21, 2020)

Out of curiosity...anyone able to share which complexes have more favorable HOA fees? I'm a year or 2 out from buying but it seems like a ton of the more moderately priced units are near $1k/mo..is that the norm?


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## Hawk (Dec 21, 2020)

No that is not.  Funny we were just doing a research for a comparison sheet and asking around because someone said we were high at $425/mo.  We found that we are average.  But some complexes have assessment for everything including common area maintenance.  others are higher but include things like wood and have a pool and large landscaped areas.  So like everything else it's what is included for what you pay.  Does anybody have any actuals to add to this discussion?


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## ss20 (Dec 21, 2020)

Rule number 1 of Eastern skiing....NEVER duck ropes at SB unless you plan on walking down or getting 3 coreshots lol.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

Mine is just under $300/mo at North Lynx...but it varies a lot depending on the size of your unit. I believe mine is on the lower end at North Lynx. We're an older complex, and sometimes do have special assessments if any big repair/maintenance items come up.

On another note, I just bit the bullet this morning and called Waitsfield Telecom to have them install Internet in my condo so I can work remotely this winter. My plan is to come up sometime in early January after quarantining after the holidays.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 21, 2020)

oh man, you're so lucky to have that option. i was officially on leave, but i checked in to work often while i was up there, and i could totally get used to living that life all the time while working. just cant carry two homes yet, or make the full move north. jealous. good for you


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> oh man, you're so lucky to have that option. i was officially on leave, but i checked in to work often while i was up there, and i could totally get used to living that life all the time while working. just cant carry two homes yet, or make the full move north. jealous. good for you



I don't think I could make a full/permanent move north, but at least temporary for the winter should be interesting. The condo in VT is the only home I own. (I bought my vacation home before a real one lol...but NJ prices are crazy by me while the VT condo was relatively cheap).


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Mine is just under $300/mo at North Lynx...but it varies a lot depending on the size of your unit. I believe mine is on the lower end at North Lynx. We're an older complex, and sometimes do have special assessments if any big repair/maintenance items come up.
> 
> On another note, I just bit the bullet this morning and called Waitsfield Telecom to have them install Internet in my condo so I can work remotely this winter. My plan is to come up sometime in early January after quarantining after the holidays.


That's awesome


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 21, 2020)

The data I'm seeing online must just be off re: my $1k/mo comment

https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4841776/161-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,431
https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4825973/251-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,571

Can't imagine these are the right numbers for those Mountainside Condos -- unless the number is for the full year?

Maybe that's it since it's $421 for this larger more updated unit at North Lynx which is inline w/ the numbers Hawk and cdskier mentioned: https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4815555/43-hobbit-hill-warren-vt-05674/

But then again $755 for a 1BR at Christmas Tree seems high even if you're getting unlimited firewood and utilities covered: https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4837775/18-christmas-tree-road-warren-vt-05674/


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> The data I'm seeing online must just be off re: my $1k/mo comment
> 
> https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4841776/161-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,431
> https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4825973/251-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,571
> ...



I'd discuss with a realtor to get the details. For Mountainside if the old info I have from 2011 is right when I was looking, a small mountainside unit was about $230/mo back then...or $2750/year. There's little chance it went down. The cost could temporarily be high due to some sort of special assessment (some complexes do HUGE projects all at once to just get everything done if there's a lot of deferred maint costs). Mountainside did have to rebuild some units/buildings due to the fire a bunch of years ago. Not sure if that somehow drove up the HOA costs as well. Also possible they decided to do major repair to the rest of the units. A realtor should have the details though on why it is high (or if those costs are right).

Also if my notes are accurate, Mountainside's HOA fees included the cable costs potentially...Odd but that's what my notes say.


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## smac75 (Dec 21, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> The data I'm seeing online must just be off re: my $1k/mo comment
> 
> https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4841776/161-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,431
> https://sugarbushrealestate.com/listing/4825973/251-mountainside-drive-warren-vt-05674/ - $1,571
> ...


I was told by SB realty that it's usually presented as quarterly fees.


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 21, 2020)

I'm in the Summit.  Fee is $350/month. As previously mentioned the fees at the various complexes are all over the place depending on the amenities.  We're pretty bare bones...snow removal, trash and firewood.  One thing to keep in mind is if you are in the village dont forget the extra ~$100/mth paid to the Mountain Utility company for water and roads.

Whoops - just noticed ducky mentioned the water/sewer charges above


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 21, 2020)

smac75 said:


> I was told by SB realty that it's usually presented as quarterly fees.


And yes that is true. We purchased a few years back and yes most of the fees you see on the real estate listings are quarterly


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## JimG. (Dec 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Mine is just under $300/mo at North Lynx...but it varies a lot depending on the size of your unit. I believe mine is on the lower end at North Lynx. We're an older complex, and sometimes do have special assessments if any big repair/maintenance items come up.
> 
> On another note, I just bit the bullet this morning and called Waitsfield Telecom to have them install Internet in my condo so I can work remotely this winter. My plan is to come up sometime in early January after quarantining after the holidays.


That's a smart move.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

JimG. said:


> That's a smart move.


Yea...I really don't see a way to follow the rules otherwise unless I only want to ski once in a while. I'm sure there are some people still doing the "come up every weekend" thing and ignoring the rules, but I can't in good conscience do that. That just isn't me. And maybe I'll be able to get out at least a few hours here and there mid-week as well (i.e. take a break in the afternoon when I tend to have fewer meetings and then finish up work in the evening). And if there's a mid-week storm, I could always just use a vacation day at work and ski since I'll already be there.

It is weird though that my first day out on the slopes won't be until sometime in January.


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## Hawk (Dec 22, 2020)

Montainside it absurdly high and a bad example because of the fire.  A whole building burnt down with many units and then a lengthy ugly court battle ensued. They have a huge assessment going on.   Like I said, we found that the average Monthly HOA costs are around $400.  We looked at North Linx, Summit, Castlerock, Trailside 2, Trailside 10, Unihab, Village Run, Paradise, Clarieire , Glades, Mountain Side, Rowe Houses, Fiddle head, Bridges, Snow Creek and South Village,


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## mrvpilgrim (Dec 22, 2020)

Christmas Tree one bedroom fees are just under $300 per month
Landscaping, Plowing , Trash ,Building Maintenance, and Hot water is included as there is a central boiler for all units
No tv or firewood


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 22, 2020)

Mountain skied well today w/ the warmer temps. Surprisingly, Spillsville is still going quite strong if you pick the right line, also the water bars on Lower Snowball are quite fun to pop around on. 

Get out there if you can - looks like we're in for another reset just in time for Christmas...


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## Hawk (Dec 22, 2020)

It's Christmas Castlerock!  What would Christmas and New Years be without a little R#@* at Sugarbush.  LOL
My first year at sugarbush we rented at Village Run in the upper units.  It poured rain and the roof leaked.  My first Christmas experience at sugarbush was collecting water drops in pans.  I remember that ping, ping, ping of drops so clearly.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> What would Christmas and New Years be without a little R#@* at Sugarbush.  LOL
> My first year at sugarbush we rented at Village Run in the upper units.  It poured rain and the roof leaked.  My first Christmas experience at sugarbush was collecting water drops in pans.  I remember that ping, ping, ping of drops so clearly.



I suppose this year's proverbial Christmas fruitcake is that gift of this thaw is it wont actually have any base to murder. 

I just took a look at the Mansfield snow stake depths for this time of year. My unscientific analysis: Glass half-empty I'm looking hatefully at the 2015-16 chart as Corona's final FU. Glass half-full I'm telling everyone this looks just like it did winters of '11-12 and '12-13 and to keep those cups full. https://matthewparrilla.com/mansfield-stake/

(Everyone, this is your excuse to have an extra beer or 3 tonight.)

_Dear Santa,

All I want for Christmas is Negative Arctic Oscillation_


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## shadyjay (Dec 22, 2020)

IIRC there was a year within the past 10 when there was not a rain day during the holiday break.  But instead, maybe even just as bad (from a management standpoint),, there was arctic cold and wind so the place was empty.  One day the wind was so bad all lifts at LP were shut down.  Not what you want to see or happen during a holiday week.


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## slatham (Dec 22, 2020)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I suppose this year's proverbial Christmas fruitcake is that gift of this thaw is it wont actually have any base to murder.
> 
> I just took a look at the Mansfield snow stake depths for this time of year. My unscientific analysis: Glass half-empty I'm looking hatefully at the 2015-16 chart as Corona's final FU. Glass half-full I'm telling everyone this looks just like it did winters of '11-12 and '12-13 and to keep those cups full. https://matthewparrilla.com/mansfield-stake/
> 
> ...


Models have -NAO and a -AO and a +PNA from post grinch storm until sometime in Jan. Not a guarantee but it puts the odds for snow and cold in our favor.


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## Dickc (Dec 22, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> IIRC there was a year within the past 10 when there was not a rain day during the holiday break.  But instead, maybe even just as bad (from a management standpoint),, there was arctic cold and wind so the place was empty.  One day the wind was so bad all lifts at LP were shut down.  Not what you want to see or happen during a holiday week.


I think that was 18-19.  I do remember it was either 16-17, or 17-18 and we had a HUUUUGE dumpo two days after Christmas and the crowds were the WORST I have ever seen in the modern slki resort times.  Sunday River traffic was backed up all the way out to Route 2.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 22, 2020)

The MLK Weekend storm from 2019 was pretty nuts crowds-wise too. I think that was the one that caused a 3hr backup on the Stowe Mtn road and ppl were literally ditching their cars and skinning up to the resort. I chose to ski North that day to try avoid crowds somewhat and was still like the 25th chair despite getting in line at like 7:00am


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yea...I really don't see a way to follow the rules otherwise unless I only want to ski once in a while. I'm sure there are some people still doing the "come up every weekend" thing and ignoring the rules, but I can't in good conscience do that. That just isn't me. And maybe I'll be able to get out at least a few hours here and there mid-week as well (i.e. take a break in the afternoon when I tend to have fewer meetings and then finish up work in the evening). And if there's a mid-week storm, I could always just use a vacation day at work and ski since I'll already be there.
> 
> It is weird though that my first day out on the slopes won't be until sometime in January.


That’s what I’m doing.  Up here until mid January or so depending on the snow.  For me though, I’m going to try and ski a couple hours early and then sit down to work.


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> That’s what I’m doing.  Up here until mid January or so depending on the snow.  For me though, I’m going to try and ski a couple hours early and then sit down to work.



I'd love to do that...but most of my meetings tend to be in the morning since that's when the US and European work days overlap.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2020)

shadyjay said:


> IIRC there was a year within the past 10 when there was not a rain day during the holiday break.  But instead, maybe even just as bad (from a management standpoint),, there was arctic cold and wind so the place was empty.  One day the wind was so bad all lifts at LP were shut down.  Not what you want to see or happen during a holiday week.


I think it was 2017.  it was freezing after Xmas but we had a good base going into the holiday.  Temps and winds kept the crowds at bay.  Pic from 12/27/17 somewhere in castlerock woods.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd love to do that...but most of my meetings tend to be in the morning since that's when the US and European work days overlap.


Uphill travel permitted at LP 4-7am.  Just sayin’


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 22, 2020)

Dickc said:


> I think that was 18-19.  I do remember it was either 16-17, or 17-18 and we had a HUUUUGE dumpo two days after Christmas and the crowds were the WORST I have ever seen in the modern slki resort times.  Sunday River traffic was backed up all the way out to Route 2.


I believe it was at the end of 2017. There was some bullshit name for it like a “bomb cyclone” or something. Further south it remained under freezing for a week or more IIRC which is almost unheard of.


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## Blurski (Dec 23, 2020)

I witnessed something at Sugarbush today that I cannot recall seeing in the past. Snow guns blazing when a major R event is in the forecast. Much more aggressive.
On the flip side they kept the gun pow run closed to skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2020)

Blurski said:


> I witnessed something at Sugarbush today that I cannot recall seeing in the past. Snow guns blazing when a major R event is in the forecast. Much more aggressive.
> On the flip side they kept the gun pow run closed to skiing.


It's called they don't really have a choice.  Time is now of the essence for the holiday and unless it is really, really bad, SOME of it will remain.


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## tumbler (Dec 23, 2020)

It's not looking good but fingers crossed for something on the backside...You never know...


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## Blurski (Dec 23, 2020)

I think this is a good move, Kinda  like Eagan’s philosophy “ You only get one turn per turn to make that turn. Otherwise you lose your turn with that turn. Just make the next turn."
So make snow!


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## ducky (Dec 23, 2020)

Ski areas prepare for crowds and unsettled weather


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## WWF-VT (Dec 23, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ski areas prepare for crowds and unsettled weather


The only bright spot in the upcoming week is that at Mad River Glen....

“Also, worth mentioning, we will be selling four-packs of Lawson's Finest Liquids "Still Single" IPA from the pub Wednesday and Thursday."


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## Castlerockrisk (Dec 24, 2020)

I hope that everyone has a great holiday. While out skiing at the end of the day yesterday I wanted to order a few beers from the pub on the app. I know that we are facing tough times and that safety is paramount but the ordering app is cumbersome at best. My entire group tried  the app and in the end we went home. If you intend to use the app set it up at home first. It does not link up to resort charge or apple pay and the app crashes often. For the mountains financial sake I hope that they improve the ordering process and possibly utilize a third party app, or allow ordering at a window with touch-less pay.  I love this mountain and hope to see it do well regardless of ownership. Again make every turn count and enjoy the holidays.


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## WinS (Dec 24, 2020)

Castlerockrisk said:


> I hope that everyone has a great holiday. While out skiing at the end of the day yesterday I wanted to order a few beers from the pub on the app. I know that we are facing tough times and that safety is paramount but the ordering app is cumbersome at best. My entire group tried  the app and in the end we went home. If you intend to use the app set it up at home first. It does not link up to resort charge or apple pay and the app crashes often. For the mountains financial sake I hope that they improve the ordering process and possibly utilize a third party app, or allow ordering at a window with touch-less pay.  I love this mountain and hope to see it do well regardless of ownership. Again make every turn count and enjoy the holidays.


Sugarbush is actually using the food and beverage TOK app. I have used it a number of times and it worked well, but it took me a few tries to get comfortable. But like anything new there are glitches which they are aware of especially if you just want to order a beer and get it quickly.  I know all at Sugarbush  appreciate feedback like this. The groomed trails today were the best of the year as the warmer temps softened them up. Unfortunately, Saturday morning will be a a different story, but they will have extra groomers going once the snow sets up late  Friday evening. Hope for some snow at the end of the rain. Even an inch would make a big difference. The whales will start getting groomed, some Saturday night and more Sunday and maybe Monday depending on what the rain does.


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## ducky (Dec 25, 2020)

Avalanche damages lodge at Belleayre Mountain Ski ... - WRGBcbs6albany.com › news › local › avalanche-damages-lo...


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 25, 2020)

Hate to be negative here, but if this storm wasn’t awful enough, there’s gonna be more rain and warm temps this week.


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## Newpylong (Dec 25, 2020)

That is unbelievable, the lodge and the forecast. I've never seen 30" melt so fast in my life as the past 24 hrs or so.


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## jaybird (Dec 26, 2020)

Well, you've never seen a year like 2020 before either .. so at this point nothing should surprise you. Wink.

As to TOK, the IT guys are working on improving the responsiveness and shortening the delays .. largely attributable to an issue with their iPads .. those serve as the primary app interface devices. It appears that the 802Burrito process is the best operational flow they can offer now.  No worries, by the time we have good skiing wall to wall, this will fade to black.


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## ducky (Dec 26, 2020)

At French Resorts, Skiing Has Become an Uphill SportAt French Resorts, Skiing Has Become an Uphill SportThe government closed ski lifts, fearing they might spread the coronavirus. The skiers came anyway.The government closed ski lifts, fearing they might spread the coronavirus. The skiers came anyway.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 26, 2020)

ducky said:


> Ski areas prepare for crowds and unsettled weather


It's not a good sign when a ski area brags about selling 4-packs of local beer instead of talking about skiing.....


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## ducky (Dec 27, 2020)

On the flip side, it snowed hard yesterday afternoon and everything is white again. Not enough to plow but I'll take it.


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## kingslug (Dec 27, 2020)

Better weather maybe for points north this weekend..I'll try Gore...


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## WinS (Dec 27, 2020)

The 3” of fresh snow really improved the quality of the skiing. Ripcord was groomed last night and the early runs on Ripcord, Upper Organgrinder and Snowball/Spring Fling were excellent. The Chicken heads were ground up nicely. I think the plan is to groom out Domino Chute and Lower Organgrinder tonight so they should ski really nicely in the morning. Fingers crossed - the end of the week forecast is improving.


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## ducky (Dec 28, 2020)

As a half-Brit this is embarrassing. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55465079

_Britain's reputation hasn't been trashed enough this week, so let's add the story of 200 British tourists who had been quarantining in Verbier doing a runner in the middle of the night. Charming._


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## Howitzer (Dec 30, 2020)

Any update on the webcams at Sugarbush? LFG!


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## 1dog (Dec 30, 2020)

ducky said:


> As a half-Brit this is embarrassing. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55465079
> 
> _Britain's reputation hasn't been trashed enough this week, so let's add the story of 200 British tourists who had been quarantining in Verbier doing a runner in the middle of the night. Charming._


Well, at least they get their independence back.


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## djd66 (Dec 30, 2020)

Howitzer said:


> Any update on the webcams at Sugarbush? LFG!


I think they are purposely blocking web cams.  I can’t think of any other reason for them not to be working.


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## ss20 (Dec 30, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I think they are purposely blocking web cams.  I can’t think of any other reason for them not to be working.



other than the fact that its literally one of the last priorities mountain ops/IT has this season....


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## El Bishop (Dec 30, 2020)

Please make snow on Steins if Mtn Ops is paying attention or Win can influence!


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## Boxtop Willie (Dec 30, 2020)

Interesting day today. Still limited terrain but Grinder/Ripcord skied well. Spring Fling a little scratchy. Minimal lift lines, never more than 2-3minutes. Gate House was practially ski on for most of the day. Trail of the day was Sleeper/sleeper chute. They've been blowing snow on it for days (and through today), ropes dropped yesterday. Not groomed, huge whales, incredible terrain for a blue. Lapped all afternoon. Other than iced up googles an great experience.


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## mikec142 (Dec 30, 2020)

Spent three past three days at SB.  Couple of observations:

1.  First and foremost, I would say mask wearing was at least 98% and the folks who weren’t wearing properly were asked to mask up by staffers very quickly. 

2.  Lift lines were small and very well managed.  Never waited more than a few minutes.

3.  Skied every open trail at LP.  Didn’t get over to ME.  To me, Organgrinder was the trail of the trip.  We did ski Sleeper this AM and while a lot of fun with all the whales and drops, I don’t love skiing under the guns.  Came out of sleeper looking like the abominable snow man.  Also, really loved railing GS turns on Snowball on the way down to Spring Fling.

4.  Curious why Steins isn’t getting any snowmaking.  Isn’t that one of the early trails that gets filled in?  Maybe I’m wrong.

5.  I’ve skied all over VT.  I would say the quality of the average skier at SB is higher than most anywhere else in VT with maybe the exception of MRG.  It was an absolute pleasure just watching from the lift.

6.  Saw a guest argue with with a parking lot attendant who asked him to park closer to the car next to him so they could get more cars into the main lot.  I just don’t get people.  We have a million problems and you want to rip into a parking lot attendant. Kudos to the PA for just letting it slide off his back.

7.  I’ve skied some ridiculously cold days at SB.  Days where the temps didn’t come close to positive numbers.  But Tuesday with the wind whipping the snow uphill on Spring Fling was downright chilly.

8.  Impressed with what was there snow wise after the soaking they got over Christmas.

Thanks for a great couple of days.


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## cdskier (Dec 30, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> 4.  Curious why Steins isn’t getting any snowmaking.  Isn’t that one of the early trails that gets filled in?  Maybe I’m wrong.


It has varied a bit over the years. Some years it is earlier in the plan, others it is later. Based on temps/weather/etc so far, I'm not at all surprised it hasn't been touched yet. It really isn't a priority and doesn't help much in spreading people out. Getting a couple options off GH plus a couple options for Intermediates/families on the Super Bravo side is more important (especially since both OG and Ripcord have been hit already with the guns on the upper mountain). I really can't say there's anything they've blown snow on so far on the lower mountain that they should have skipped in favor of Steins instead...


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## djd66 (Dec 31, 2020)

ss20 said:


> other than the fact that its literally one of the last priorities mountain ops/IT has this season....


Listen, I get the priority thing. However,  It’s not like they need to add an air compressor to get the cams to work - They already do work If you have not updated the app. The web cam page is probably one of the top visited pages on their website, there is no other logical explanation for them not working ( 2 months into the season) other than they don’t want them to work by choice.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 31, 2020)

I skied Sugarbush on Sunday and Monday and Killington on Tuesday and Wednesday. Both skied well considering the recent weather. At Sugarbush the lines were minimal and the terrain at both sides was generally good, but I would’ve liked to see a bit more open at Ellen, but then again, they’ve had limited opportunities to make snow. Mask compliance was okay, but I did see less compliance than at Killington. Even though it was icy, Ripcord was pretty fun, especially on the edges. Jester was great as well. At Killington it was great to see just how much terrain they had open and how much resurfacing work they were doing. They were not focusing on new trails, but they were blowing snow on many of the existing trails. Everything was pretty icy, but really nothing more than any other eastern ski day. As Mike said, Tuesday was really chilly, much more so than I was expecting, but it was the first real bluebird day of the season which was great to see. Overall both mountains were fun to ski at, but they really need a dump of snow, and both Killington and Sugarbush have a lot of snowmaking to do before MLK weekend. Superstar doesn’t have any snow on it yet, which is almost unheard of since they usually have it open for the race in November.


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## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Superstar doesn’t have any snow on it yet, which is almost unheard of since they usually have it open for the race in November.


usually? Maybe in your life time but the race has only been the last few years.


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## slatham (Dec 31, 2020)

Doubt they hit Steins until they can get North Lynx open. They need to spread people out.


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## mikec142 (Dec 31, 2020)

slatham said:


> Doubt they hit Steins until they can get North Lynx open. They need to spread people out.


That works for me.  One of my guilty pleasures is the getting warmed up by taking a ride up Gate House and North Lynx, then doing a Birch to Sleeper run and taking it over to Bravo.

I've been skiing SB for years, but don't really follow the ins and outs of the mountain operations.  So Steins just stood out to me, but it's also very possible that I just don't remember previous years operation patterns that well.


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## mikec142 (Dec 31, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It has varied a bit over the years. Some years it is earlier in the plan, others it is later. Based on temps/weather/etc so far, I'm not at all surprised it hasn't been touched yet. It really isn't a priority and doesn't help much in spreading people out. Getting a couple options off GH plus a couple options for Intermediates/families on the Super Bravo side is more important (especially since both OG and Ripcord have been hit already with the guns on the upper mountain). I really can't say there's anything they've blown snow on so far on the lower mountain that they should have skipped in favor of Steins instead...


Makes sense to me.  Totally agree with the idea that I wouldn't swap out any of the existing terrain for Steins.  As I said just a second ago up thread, I rarely pay attention to the operations patterns.  But for some reason Steins stood out to me on this trip.


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## mikec142 (Dec 31, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I skied Sugarbush on Sunday and Monday and Killington on Tuesday and Wednesday. Both skied well considering the recent weather. At Sugarbush the lines were minimal and the terrain at both sides was generally good, but I would’ve liked to see a bit more open at Ellen, but then again, they’ve had limited opportunities to make snow. Mask compliance was okay, but I did see less compliance than at Killington. Even though it was icy, Ripcord was pretty fun, especially on the edges. Jester was great as well. At Killington it was great to see just how much terrain they had open and how much resurfacing work they were doing. They were not focusing on new trails, but they were blowing snow on many of the existing trails. Everything was pretty icy, but really nothing more than any other eastern ski day. As Mike said, Tuesday was really chilly, much more so than I was expecting, but it was the first real bluebird day of the season which was great to see. Overall both mountains were fun to ski at, but they really need a dump of snow, and both Killington and Sugarbush have a lot of snowmaking to do before MLK weekend. Superstar doesn’t have any snow on it yet, which is almost unheard of since they usually have it open for the race in November.


I'm surprised to hear that you felt mask compliance was better at K.  I really didn't see much room for improvement because compliance and enforcement was already extremely high.  As a side note, I skied earlier this season at Windham and I would say mask compliance was at best 30% and lift line management (to keep distance) was terrible.  So in contrast, SB was a delightful experience.

I thought Ripcord was good at the top, icy in the steep middle part and really fun towards the bottom where it flattens out a bit.

I usually find Jester to be icy and crowded as it's the only way for people to get down from HG without skiing a black, but it was in very good condition.


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## Blurski (Dec 31, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Makes sense to me.  Totally agree with the idea that I wouldn't swap out any of the existing terrain for Steins.  As I said just a second ago up thread, I rarely pay attention to the operations patterns.  But for some reason Steins stood out to me on this trip.


I would prefer they keep the guns off Steins, assuming we actually get some natural snow, it skis very nice natural.  There has been years in the past where they would drop back to blow and burry it for spring.


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## WinS (Dec 31, 2020)

El Bishop said:


> Please make snow on Steins if Mtn Ops is paying attention or Win can influence!


Many have answered this accurately already. Stein‘s is one of the last trails we historically have made snow on. Going into the Christmas Holidays the priority has always been getting as much beginner and intermediate terrain open and to spread people out. Many ski only one vacation a year, so the priority is this group rather than those of us who ski all reason and love trails like Stein‘s. Temperatures also determine what can be accomplished and when as there can be a huge difference between the lower and upper mountains. We have also tried to avoid snowmaking under a lift like Gatehouse during a Holiday week. Sleeper may be groomed tonight. It did ski great yesterday even with the guns on. I know the next move is Birch and Sunrise at LP and likely Looking Good at ME given the temp forecast. Having North Lynx also spreads the crowds out.

The trails that yet have to get snowmaking are Lower Snowball, Racer’s Edge, Birdland, Murphy’s, Steins’,Hot Shot, Birch and Sunrise at LP and Looking Good, Cliffs, Reimergasse, Sugar Run, Cruiser and Brambles at ME. Some trails in additional to the spring trails may also need more depth .

The good news for the New Year is it looks like we may actually get a few waves of ”Nor’inchers” hitting us over the next week. Even a few inches will make everything ski much better.


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## CastlerockMRV (Dec 31, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Listen, I get the priority thing. However,  It’s not like they need to add an air compressor to get the cams to work - They already do work If you have not updated the app. The web cam page is probably one of the top visited pages on their website, there is no other logical explanation for them not working ( 2 months into the season) other than they don’t want them to work by choice.


To be honest, I think it’s a good idea to not have lift line cams this year. Better to not have them than to have a “Sarah” send misleading screenshots to the Boston Globe of ppl not doing a good job social distancing at Heavens Gate on a Holiday Weekend. Etc.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 1, 2021)

I know SB does this every year but why blow on upper FIS when there are other areas to cover.  Every year they blow on that trail, skiers right is shear ice and skiers way left is good.  Skiers way left near the edge of the trail and the trees aren't hit with snowmaking.  I say let it ski natural like Black Diamond, BTW Black Diamond is a much better trail.


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## cdskier (Jan 1, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> I know SB does this every year but why blow on upper FIS when there are other areas to cover.  Every year they blow on that trail, skiers right is shear ice and skiers way left is good.  Skiers way left near the edge of the trail and the trees aren't hit with snowmaking.  I say let it ski natural like Black Diamond, BTW Black Diamond is a much better trail.



I could be wrong, but my guess would be FIS is too wide and exposed to hold only natural snow well except for right along the edges. It needs help from at least some man-made. Black Diamond is fairly sheltered so can hold the natural snow well. There's really no comparing the trails with how completely different they are.

I have no issues with making snow on FIS and really don't think the trail would do well left all natural (or would simply be rarely open).


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 1, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I could be wrong, but my guess would be FIS is too wide and exposed to hold only natural snow well except for right along the edges. It needs help from at least some man-made. Black Diamond is fairly sheltered so can hold the natural snow well. There's really no comparing the trails with how completely different they are.
> 
> I have no issues with making snow on FIS and really don't think the trail would do well left all natural (or would simply be rarely open).


I don't know if it had snowmaking on it back in 1980-1981 but it looked pretty good back then.


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## cdskier (Jan 1, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don't know if it had snowmaking on it back in 1980-1981 but it looked pretty good back then.



The 1980-81 trail map says Upper FIS had snow-making at that point... Can't say whether it was used or not the year/date that photo was taken though.

Edit - The first appearance of "snowmaking" listed on a trail map for Upper FIS (or any upper mountain trails at Mt Ellen) was for the 1979-1980 season. Prior to that snow-making only existed on Inverness and a couple other beginner trails on the lower mountain.


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## ducky (Jan 1, 2021)

They used to make snow on Exterminator and Bravo not too long ago; Bravo by pulling hoses from Elbow. Helps quite a bit to hit the faces.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Listen, I get the priority thing. However,  It’s not like they need to add an air compressor to get the cams to work - They already do work If you have not updated the app. The web cam page is probably one of the top visited pages on their website, there is no other logical explanation for them not working ( 2 months into the season) other than they don’t want them to work by choice.


Considering that folks here posted about what they were seeing on the cams it is no surprise that they are now turned off.  Both to avoid the State threatening them as to crowds/masking and due to the conditions..


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2021)

ducky said:


> They used to make snow on Exterminator and Bravo not too long ago; Bravo by pulling hoses from Elbow. Helps quite a bit to hit the faces.


I loved that.  Exterminator was fun.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don't know if it had snowmaking on it back in 1980-1981 but it looked pretty good back then.


Love me some FIS.  It has had snowmaking as long as I can remember.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> I know SB does this every year but why blow on upper FIS when there are other areas to cover.  Every year they blow on that trail, skiers right is shear ice and skiers way left is good.  Skiers way left near the edge of the trail and the trees aren't hit with snowmaking.  I say let it ski natural like Black Diamond, BTW Black Diamond is a much better trail.


As said, it’s too steep to hold natural snow.  Skier’s left was always consistent in terms of decent conditions.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 2, 2021)

ducky said:


> They used to make snow on Exterminator and Bravo not too long ago; Bravo by pulling hoses from Elbow. Helps quite a bit to hit the faces.


I could very well be wrong, but aren’t there snowmaking hydrants still on Exterminator? I could’ve sworn I remembered seeing one when I skied it last.


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## cdskier (Jan 2, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I could very well be wrong, but aren’t there snowmaking hydrants still on Exterminator? I could’ve sworn I remembered seeing one when I skied it last.



Yes, they're still there along skier's left. They're a couple feet out into the trail, so you can easily ski around them too. I can't remember the last time they used them though. And Exterminator is a trail that skis just fine with only natural snow so I'm fine with not making snow there.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes, they're still there along skier's left. They're a couple feet out into the trail, so you can easily ski around them too. I can't remember the last time they used them though. And Exterminator is a trail that skis just fine with only natural snow so I'm fine with not making snow there.


Looks like they can be seen exactly as you described them in this photo.


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## Castlerockrisk (Jan 2, 2021)

Exterminator used to have glades and when they installed snowmaking they cut the trees down. Niot sure about the year. Fis traditionally hosted the turkey tumble - a pretty good bump contest on thanks giving. On many years Fis had snowmaking on the slope around the ski and skate sale mid November. Mt Ellen was electric in those days and the vibe was so positive. The decks on all the lodges had great barbecues and the beer was flowing from kegs. It was the place to be early and late season. The bump skiing and skill level of the skiers was fun to be part of. Sking Fis to cliffs in the spring with vw sized bumps into late April and May was a given. Even though the snow making was limited they added air to the snow and it was better than the snow thirty years later. Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 2, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.



Yep.  In my humble opinion an old Ratnik "air hog" from 30 years ago makes better snow than a new $20k fan gun.  Of course, only if the ops are putting a crapload of air in the Ratnik.  Also those old in-house K and SR ground guns make amazing snow when you're running (almost literally) a compressor's worth of air into them hahaha.


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## jaybird (Jan 2, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> Exterminator used to have glades and when they installed snowmaking they cut the trees down. Niot sure about the year. Fis traditionally hosted the turkey tumble - a pretty good bump contest on thanks giving. On many years Fis had snowmaking on the slope around the ski and skate sale mid November. Mt Ellen was electric in those days and the vibe was so positive. The decks on all the lodges had great barbecues and the beer was flowing from kegs. It was the place to be early and late season. The bump skiing and skill level of the skiers was fun to be part of. Sking Fis to cliffs in the spring with vw sized bumps into late April and May was a given. Even though the snow making was limited they added air to the snow and it was better than the snow thirty years later. Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.


.. Spring Fling .. SKI magazine party


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 3, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yep.  In my humble opinion an old Ratnik "air hog" from 30 years ago makes better snow than a new $20k fan gun.  Of course, only if the ops are putting a crapload of air in the Ratnik.  Also those old in-house K and SR ground guns make amazing snow when you're running (almost literally) a compressor's worth of air into them hahaha.


So is it true that Killington has their own guns? They looked pretty unique and old school to me compared to the HKD guns I’m used to seeing.


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## ss20 (Jan 3, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So is it true that Killington has their own guns? They looked pretty unique and old school to me compared to the HKD guns I’m used to seeing.



Yes they developed their own guns in the 80s and 90s (and perhaps before as well....many places did their own thing in the early days of snowmaking).  Most "famous" is the K3000 which they still use frequently.  If you do a post search of highwaystar on KillingtonZone you'll find all kinds of info on it.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yes they developed their own guns in the 80s and 90s (and perhaps before as well....many places did their own thing in the early days of snowmaking).  Most "famous" is the K3000 which they still use frequently.  If you do a post search of highwaystar on KillingtonZone you'll find all kinds of info on it.


Highwaystar.  That's a guy I have not seen in a while.


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## ss20 (Jan 3, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Highwaystar.  That's a guy I have not seen in a while.



I tried @'ing him on this site and his name didn't pop up...wondering if he deleted his account.  He started the k zone mega covid thread in early March and accurately sounded the alarm on the topic.  His ego probably got so big he exploded 

While he was mostly a troll he had accumulated a huuuuge amount of knowledge on the industry and Killingtons snowmaking system.


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## skiur (Jan 3, 2021)

On kzone somebody posted that hwystar was his friend and had  died last night.  Then the next day hwystar logged in.  That was probably 2 months ago and he hasn't logged in since the day after he died.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 3, 2021)

For anyone that has been at Sugarbush today or yesterday, where are they currently making snow, if at all? From Win’s comments I assume they’re working on North Lynx and Lookin Good, but I obviously don’t know for sure since I am not there right now.


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## teleo (Jan 3, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> For anyone that has been at Sugarbush today or yesterday, where are they currently making snow, if at all? From Win’s comments I assume they’re working on North Lynx and Lookin Good, but I obviously don’t know for sure since I am not there right now.


Were blowing birch on NL and started some on murphys.


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## machski (Jan 3, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> Exterminator used to have glades and when they installed snowmaking they cut the trees down. Niot sure about the year. Fis traditionally hosted the turkey tumble - a pretty good bump contest on thanks giving. On many years Fis had snowmaking on the slope around the ski and skate sale mid November. Mt Ellen was electric in those days and the vibe was so positive. The decks on all the lodges had great barbecues and the beer was flowing from kegs. It was the place to be early and late season. The bump skiing and skill level of the skiers was fun to be part of. Sking Fis to cliffs in the spring with vw sized bumps into late April and May was a given. Even though the snow making was limited they added air to the snow and it was better than the snow thirty years later. Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.


Not sure the year, but most likely when LBO came to town and swung the GMX to the North Ridge


Castlerockrisk said:


> Exterminator used to have glades and when they installed snowmaking they cut the trees down. Niot sure about the year. Fis traditionally hosted the turkey tumble - a pretty good bump contest on thanks giving. On many years Fis had snowmaking on the slope around the ski and skate sale mid November. Mt Ellen was electric in those days and the vibe was so positive. The decks on all the lodges had great barbecues and the beer was flowing from kegs. It was the place to be early and late season. The bump skiing and skill level of the skiers was fun to be part of. Sking Fis to cliffs in the spring with vw sized bumps into late April and May was a given. Even though the snow making was limited they added air to the snow and it was better than the snow thirty years later. Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.


Not sure the exact year, but I do believe Exterminator got widened and Snowmaking added when LBO came to town and moved GMX to become the North Ridge Express.  He focused a lot on that new pod he created with the lift move at North.


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## cdskier (Jan 3, 2021)

machski said:


> Not sure the exact year, but I do believe Exterminator got widened and Snowmaking added when LBO came to town and moved GMX to become the North Ridge Express.  He focused a lot on that new pod he created with the lift move at North.



Going back to the historical trail maps, looks like Exterminator snowmaking was installed the same year as all the other upper mountain snowmaking (for the 1979-1980 season).


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2021)

95% of LBO work was at South.  The only work that was done at North was moving GMX to Northridge and installing the Slug.  No snowmaking work, it already had almost 90% coverage.  The huge focus was at South.  Hard to believe a mountain of that size had such a feeble snowmaking system.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 4, 2021)

tumbler said:


> 95% of LBO work was at South.  The only work that was done at North was moving GMX to Northridge and installing the Slug.  No snowmaking work, it already had almost 90% coverage.  The huge focus was at South.  Hard to believe a mountain of that size had such a feeble snowmaking system.


Correct, the main reason for this was because Claneil invested heavily in North in 1990 and improved the snowmaking. They also put in the original Green Mountain Express (now North Ridge) as well as Inverness and Summit. This ownership seemed to prioritize Ellen over Lincoln. Lincoln at the time had aging, slow lifts and a poor snowmaking system. Then Otten came in and invested a shit ton of money into lift and snowmaking improvements which Win all inherited when he bought the place for close to what Otten payed for it. I still find it astonishing that in LBO’s first year of ownership 6 lift projects AND snowmaking improvements were all done in one year. Crazy.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 4, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> Exterminator used to have glades and when they installed snowmaking they cut the trees down. Niot sure about the year. Fis traditionally hosted the turkey tumble - a pretty good bump contest on thanks giving. On many years Fis had snowmaking on the slope around the ski and skate sale mid November. Mt Ellen was electric in those days and the vibe was so positive. The decks on all the lodges had great barbecues and the beer was flowing from kegs. It was the place to be early and late season. The bump skiing and skill level of the skiers was fun to be part of. Sking Fis to cliffs in the spring with vw sized bumps into late April and May was a given. Even though the snow making was limited they added air to the snow and it was better than the snow thirty years later. Go figure - cheap energy and archaic snow guns with loud compressors made snow that was pretty good.


ME is still the place to be imo.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> ME is still the place to be imo.


It's funny.  I guess that I'm just so used to LP.  I would say that 75%+ of my time is spent at LP.  Whenever I'm at ME, I'm very happy.  Guess I need to just give it more chances.

There are a few simple reasons for it.  First, I'm much more familiar with LP.  Second, pre-Covid, when my non-skiing wife would join us, it's more comfortable for her to chill in the lodge at LP.  Third, it takes a bit of effort to get back and forth.  Especially in this environment.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

I know the webcams are low priority.  And I understand why SB doesn't want to show the new lift lines.  But, I do love checking them out and watching what I'm missing while stuck at the office.  

So...help a brother out.  Give me something to look forward to and make me smile.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

Getting back to Mount Ellen for a second: what are the natural snow only trails there?


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## NYDB (Jan 4, 2021)

Anyone rent a Cabana yet?  I need a Cabana trip report.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Getting back to Mount Ellen for a second: what are the natural snow only trails there?


There's quite a few...

Black Diamond, Exterminator, Bravo, Hammerhead, Tumbler, Lower FIS, Walt's, Semi-Tough, Encore, Upper Looking Good


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There's quite a few...
> 
> Black Diamond, Exterminator, Bravo, Hammerhead, Tumbler, Lower FIS, Walt's, Semi-Tough, Encore, Upper Looking Good


Unless something has changed, Bravo and Exterminator at least "technically" had snowmaking.  That said, the latest trail map does not have a snowmaking symbol for either of these trails.  Did they remove pipe?


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Unless something has changed, Bravo and Exterminator at least "technically" had snowmaking.  That said, the latest trail map does not have a snowmaking symbol for either of these trails.  Did they remove pipe?


Hah. I almost put an * next to Exterminator. Technically it has snow-making capability, but it has to have been at least 10 years now since they last blew anything on it so for all intents and purposes you can consider it a natural trail. Bravo if memory serves me correct they used to make snow on by pulling hoses from an adjacent trail, so while snow was made on it in the past (again at least 10+ years ago now), it doesn't actually have snowmaking itself (unless it has 1 or 2 hydrants somewhere near the top that I'm forgetting about).


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## Powder Whore (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> It's funny.  I guess that I'm just so used to LP.  I would say that 75%+ of my time is spent at LP.  Whenever I'm at ME, I'm very happy.  Guess I need to just give it more chances.
> 
> There are a few simple reasons for it.  First, I'm much more familiar with LP.  Second, pre-Covid, when my non-skiing wife would join us, it's more comfortable for her to chill in the lodge at LP.  Third, it takes a bit of effort to get back and forth.  Especially in this environment.


It’s certainly nice to have the option. You could always hop on the Slidebrook chair.   ( conditions permitting).


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Hah. I almost put an * next to Exterminator. Technically it has snow-making capability, but it has to have been at least 10 years now since they last blew anything on it so for all intents and purposes you can consider it a natural trail. Bravo if memory serves me correct they used to make snow on by pulling hoses from an adjacent trail, so while snow was made on it in the past (again at least 10+ years ago now), it doesn't actually have snowmaking itself (unless it has 1 or 2 hydrants somewhere near the top that I'm forgetting about).


Yeah, it's weird that both lost their "*'s" in around 2018.  

I think the last season I skied there, 2010-2011, they did make snow on Exterminator.  

Yes, they had limited snowmaking on Bravo.  They had a pipe spur that ran to the headwall area.  There were one or two hydrants there IIRC.  I also saw them drag hoses from time to time, but that is now going on a decade ago (wow, time flies).  

It's also interesting how they had a dedicated snowmaking line for Way Back.  I can remember 2002-2003 when they opened the Summit Quad area early season and used Way Back to allow skiers to return to the Summit Quad.  It's too bad that they don't do that anymore.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, it's weird that both lost their "*'s" in around 2018.


Agree that Ext lost the snowmaking symbol around 2018 or 2019 (although the pipes are definitely still there), but I can't find a map that ever showed Bravo with the symbol.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> It’s certainly nice to have the option. You could always hop on the Slidebrook chair.   ( conditions permitting).


The option to ski both is great for sure.  The SB chair is awesome.  Unfortunately, it needs the right conditions to run.  The Mad Bus is fine too, but I'm not doing that in today's environment.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not complaining.  I'm lamenting the fact that I'm often too content to make the effort to get to ME.

Another factor for me is that I'm now an Ikon Pass holder and for several years before that I would buy tons of quad packs.  So as of a couple of years ago, I never felt the need to save a few bucks by buying an ME only ticket.  Although, for those who don't have a pass, it's a great option.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Correct, the main reason for this was because Claneil invested heavily in North in 1990 and improved the snowmaking. They also put in the original Green Mountain Express (now North Ridge) as well as Inverness and Summit. This ownership seemed to prioritize Ellen over Lincoln. Lincoln at the time had aging, slow lifts and a poor snowmaking system. Then Otten came in and invested a shit ton of money into lift and snowmaking improvements which Win all inherited when he bought the place for close to what Otten payed for it. I still find it astonishing that in LBO’s first year of ownership 6 lift projects AND snowmaking improvements were all done in one year. Crazy.


Well, it's all relative. 

Pre LBO there was SOME snowmaking on LP.  IIRC they had a York Automated System for Murphy's Glade and parts of Birdland down to Lower Jester.  They also had snowmaking on Stein's, Spring Fling, and Ripcord.  Additionally, Snowball and parts of Gatehouse had snowmaking.  But yes, North was the focus because they could more easily open it earlier in the season and have it be last to close. 

LBO invested $28 million in that one season.  It was nuts.  The lifts were a huge improvement as was the increase in snowmaking.  That said, after that one summer, ASC did not have any money left to do much more.  Once the hotel was delayed they really cut back.  Win (who can speak personally) and his partners inherited a lot of deferred maintenance and a condemned Castlerock Double chair.  I also know that over the years we have talked about all the snowmaking pipe that they have replaced because LBO used cheaper grade pipe.

North, in some ways, saw a downgrade under ASC.  One now had to ride three lifts to ski the entire mountain.  The Snail sucked big time.  Their idea was that skiers and riders would ride Slidebrook over from LP and that ME would essentially be another trail pod of sorts.  That didn't really work.  ASC also moved early and late ops from Ellen to LP.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> The option to ski both is great for sure.  The SB chair is awesome.  Unfortunately, it needs the right conditions to run.  The Mad Bus is fine too, but I'm not doing that in today's environment.
> 
> Don't get me wrong...I'm not complaining.  I'm lamenting the fact that I'm often too content to make the effort to get to ME.
> 
> Another factor for me is that I'm now an Ikon Pass holder and for several years before that I would buy tons of quad packs.  So as of a couple of years ago, I never felt the need to save a few bucks by buying an ME only ticket.  Although, for those who don't have a pass, it's a great option.



I've had a season pass for a while and still ski ME a decent number of days each season. I like the terrain there and generally speaking it also has less people than LP so tends to be a nice choice for Saturdays if LP is crowded.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I've had a season pass for a while and still ski ME a decent number of days each season. I like the terrain there and generally speaking it also has less people than LP so tends to be a nice choice for Saturdays if LP is crowded.


I'm with you.  I'm basically using a lot of words to say I'm too lazy and content to make it to ME that often.

Whenever I do, I have a great time.  Last season (injury and covid shortened), my favorite run of the season was lapping Exterminator on a January powder day.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> The option to ski both is great for sure.  The SB chair is awesome.  Unfortunately, it needs the right conditions to run.  The Mad Bus is fine too, but I'm not doing that in today's environment.
> 
> Don't get me wrong...I'm not complaining.  I'm lamenting the fact that I'm often too content to make the effort to get to ME.
> 
> Another factor for me is that I'm now an Ikon Pass holder and for several years before that I would buy tons of quad packs.  So as of a couple of years ago, I never felt the need to save a few bucks by buying an ME only ticket.  Although, for those who don't have a pass, it's a great option.


I always try and ski both on a full day, even when SB isn’t running. I just like the variety and how the two sides complement each other in terms of terrain variety. SB definitely makes it easier to get between the two, but COVID wise, the busses haven’t been too crowded this year.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Agree that Ext lost the snowmaking symbol around 2018 or 2019 (although the pipes are definitely still there), but I can't find a map that ever showed Bravo with the symbol.


Now that you mention it, I went back through trail maps to 1992 and don't see a "*" for Bravo anywhere.  That said, I was pretty sure that I had seen at least one map with such indication on it.  I didn't think that it was completely honest as there was literally one or two hydrants,.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I always try and ski both on a full day, even when SB isn’t running. I just like the variety and how the two sides complement each other in terms of terrain variety. SB definitely makes it easier to get between the two, but COVID wise, the busses haven’t been too crowded this year.


Another fan of North/Ellen here.  I've seen comments made that traffic at LP vs. Ellen is almost 2 to 1.  The difference is noticeable with conditions and lift lines.  The woods were also much less tracked out.


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2021)

The used to be snowmaking on Hammerhead, we dragged hoses through the woods from Cliffs, some were 3 hose lengths long!  Also went though the woods to hit Upper Looking Good and Brambles.  The spur line to the Bravo rock is relatively new, that was another hose drag from Elbow.

I used to be a ME guy only but once I skied LP a lot I like to size, more space to spread out.  I still love ME though.  Exterm to Tumbler- great run.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The used to be snowmaking on Hammerhead, we dragged hoses through the woods from Cliffs, some were 3 hose lengths long!  Also went though the woods to hit Upper Looking Good and Brambles.  The spur line to the Bravo rock is relatively new, that was another hose drag from Elbow.
> 
> I used to be a ME guy only but once I skied LP a lot I like to size, more space to spread out.  I still love ME though.  Exterm to Tumbler- great run.


Some of the older trail maps even did show Hammerhead as a "snowmaking" trail (just looked and it is on the 1991 through 2002 trail maps marked as snowmaking). Trying to make snow on that trail seems weird with how narrow it is though.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, it's all relative.
> 
> Pre LBO there was SOME snowmaking on LP.  IIRC they had a York Automated System for Murphy's Glade and parts of Birdland down to Lower Jester.  They also had snowmaking on Stein's, Spring Fling, and Ripcord.  Additionally, Snowball and parts of Gatehouse had snowmaking.  But yes, North was the focus because they could more easily open it earlier in the season and have it be last to close.
> 
> ...


A long time ago, didn't they make snow on lower birdland?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> A long time ago, didn't they make snow on lower birdland?


Not before LBO.  LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland.  I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down.  But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.


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## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Not before LBO.  LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland.  I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down.  But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.


Going back 7-8 years, I don't recall ever seeing snowmaking on Lower Birdland.  But I wouldn't count on my recollections.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Going back 7-8 years, I don't recall ever seeing snowmaking on Lower Birdland.  But I wouldn't count on my recollections.


Lower Birdland first showed as a "snowmaking" trail on the 1995 trail map. It remained marked as a snowmaking trail on the map until 2018 or 2019 (which is odd, as I feel like the hydrants have been gone for a number of years now, although I do remember seeing them back in the early 2000s on some of my earlier trips).


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Going back 7-8 years, I don't recall ever seeing snowmaking on Lower Birdland.  But I wouldn't count on my recollections.


Yeah.  The last time I saw snowmaking was way back in 2000-2001 or so.  They had a lot of hydrants on it.


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## WinS (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Not before LBO.  LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland.  I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down.  But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.


No. We did not. Very tough trail with the pitch, rock, double fall line and positioning of the lift and inability to groom. 

ME is a grandfathered snowmaking permit with no ability to expand without possibly putting the existing water withdrawal permit in jeopardy. However, one day it might be possible to add snowmaking to a trail like Walt’s and permanently remove it from Exterminator which is still an approved snowmaking trail even though snow is no longer made there. Having a green trail off on Inverness that could be groomed every night would be a big plus.

The $28 million that LBO advertised included the acquisition cost of the resort from Claneil. About $20 million represented capital improvememts, I believe.


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2021)

Even though snowmaking was on lower birdland it was rarely used, like less than 5 times.  Win's team pulled the hydrants and now there is just one pipe that I think it an air line.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

WinS said:


> No. We did not. Very tough trail with the pitch, rock, double fall line and positioning of the lift and inability to groom.
> 
> ME is a grandfathered snowmaking permit with no ability to expand without possibly putting the existing water withdrawal permit in jeopardy. However, one day it might be possible to add snowmaking to a trail like Walt’s and permanently remove it from Exterminator which is still an approved snowmaking trail even though snow is no longer made there. Having a green trail off on Inverness that could be groomed every night would be a big plus.
> 
> The $28 million that LBO advertised included the acquisition cost of the resort from Claneil. About $20 million represented capital improvememts, I believe.


I legitimately might cry if snowmaking was ever added to Walts. That is one of the most fun green all natural snow trails around... I think it is a great introduction to a natural trail for "advanced" beginners and something you don't see much of.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I legitimately might cry if snowmaking was ever added to Walts. That is one of the most fun green all natural snow trails around... I think it is a great introduction to a natural trail for "advanced" beginners and something you don't see much of.


It love Walt’s too, but it might make sense, especially if they do that expansion they’ve been hinting about. Inverness is almost always being used by racer kids, ditto for brambles. A groomed way down would be nice for some. Hopefully semi tough stays natural though.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I legitimately might cry if snowmaking was ever added to Walts. That is one of the most fun green all natural snow trails around... I think it is a great introduction to a natural trail for "advanced" beginners and something you don't see much of.


Similar to Fox / Vixen at MRG but Walt’s has much better pitch.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 4, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It love Walt’s too, but it might make sense, especially if they do that expansion they’ve been hinting about. Inverness is almost always being used by racer kids, ditto for brambles. A groomed way down would be nice for some. Hopefully semi tough stays natural though.


If that expansion ends up being the gladed terrain with with a skin track off of Exterminator that’s been discussed before then I’ll cry too. Albeit tears of joy!

Semi Tough Woods and Brambles Woods are 2 of the best runs at ME. Top to bottom tree skiing of that quality would be to die for.


(@Sugarbush sign me up if your need volunteers to come make this happen. I’m handy with the chainsaw! )


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## pinnoke (Jan 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I legitimately might cry if snowmaking was ever added to Walts. That is one of the most fun green all natural snow trails around... I think it is a great introduction to a natural trail for "advanced" beginners and something you don't see much of.


Agreed...100%! The few times where I've run a Meet The Mountain tour at ME and conditions were right, I'd take a small group there for a treat! Even better...when I'm all alone, and a few inches of fresh have fallen. Such a pleasure; pristine; and a throwback to the way skiing 'used to be' enjoyed. Sure, it's a 'green'; but I can't imagine anyone who considers themselves a skier not able to appreciate it. Semi-Tough, as a tough blue when it's bumped up, is also great. Snowmaking and grooming (on Walt's) would be regrettable. Let Northstar handle the novices.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> Agreed...100%! The few times where I've run a Meet The Mountain tour at ME and conditions were right, I'd take a small group there for a treat! Even better...when I'm all alone, and a few inches of fresh have fallen. Such a pleasure; pristine; and a throwback to the way skiing 'used to be' enjoyed. Sure, it's a 'green'; but I can't imagine anyone who considers themselves a skier not able to appreciate it. Semi-Tough, as a tough blue when it's bumped up, is also great. Snowmaking and grooming (on Walt's) would be regrettable. Let Northstar handle the novices.


I also loved Walt's.


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## shadyjay (Jan 4, 2021)

Many years ago before I got to ski the natural trails, I wondered "why not make snow on this trail?"  "Why not this trail?"  After many years, finally experiencing many trails that I had circled as possible snowmaking trails, the shear thought of snowmaking on those trails struck me with terror.  For example, look at a trail like Sleeper or Murphys and what snowmaking has done to them.  It used to be Murphy's Glades.  Now I think its down to one Glade.  Now putting snowmaking into a trail like Moonshine or Twist would do the same thing.  With regular snowmaking comes regular grooming.  A groomed Moonshine doesn't strike me as a lot of fun as an untouched a'natural Moonshine.  Hammerhead would also lose a lot if it got regular snowmaking.  Semi-Tough too.  God I love those hidden gems off Inverness, especially on a powder day.  It was worth the trek across Northway on my board to get freshies even in the afternoon on Brambles, Semi, or Walts.  If conditions were real good, it was Exterminator to Northway, just to keep your speed up.  The map trailboss posted earlier is THE best Mt Ellen map, as it shows the general layout of Mt Ellen more accurately, but not as easily shown if you're trying to keep the two mountains "continuous".  

I feel the trails that have snowmaking are the right number for now.  If snowmaking was added anywhere, I'd say a spur line down the CR cutoff, around the lift, and down the runout.  It wouldn't help in a low snow year (as CR trails wouldn't get any help from it), but it would give you some more time when the upper reaches still have plenty of snow but the runout is gone... or that last corner before the liftline.  

I believe the only trail where hoses are stretched through the woods to reach is Sugar Run and perhaps lower Brambles.  I was on when the Bravo headwall was hit (though I was a South guy so I wasn't a part of it).  Snowmaking was no longer occurring on Lower Birdland or Exterm when I started c 2011-12.  We did have several hydrants labelled "LBL" in the boneyard, and some were reused as needed.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> I feel the trails that have snowmaking are the right number for now.  If snowmaking was added anywhere, I'd say a spur line down the CR cutoff, around the lift, and down the runout.  It wouldn't help in a low snow year (as CR trails wouldn't get any help from it), but it would give you some more time when the upper reaches still have plenty of snow but the runout is gone... or that last corner before the liftline.


That's exactly the main additional place I would want any snow-making added as well. Only other thing I can think of that might have some decent value would be adding a couple hydrants on some of the traverses (i.e. Reverse Traverse or HG Traverse).


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## shadyjay (Jan 4, 2021)

Yes, HG Traverse indeed, as it does serve as an alternate access to Heaven's Gate to avoid Downspout.  Reverse Traverse "usually" is only utilized when you're trying to get to Heaven's Gate or Castlerock, and Super Bravo is down, and "usually", those cases are few and far between.  I can only imagine trying to navigate that trail with whales on it.  

I did forget to mention a couple trails we did make snow on that are not shown as having snowmaking on the maps... Pushover Chute, Second Thoughts, and actually, the far end of HG Traverse as well as CR Cutoff.  Certain lines around the mountain are "always charged" and if you've got some extra capacity, it doesn't hurt to throw on a gun just downhill of the booster and add some lengths to shoot up the Traverse, or at the cutoff and add some lengths going down.  Doesn't hurt, that is, until you have to remove all the hoses or change one out that blew, or you're doing any/all of the above solo.  I want to say at one point we did run a gun up the bottom of Moonshine from Spring Fling.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> I did forget to mention a couple trails we did make snow on that are not shown as having snowmaking on the maps... Pushover Chute, Second Thoughts, and actually, the far end of HG Traverse as well as CR Cutoff.


Yea...Pushover Chute and Second Thoughts still regularly have snow made on them using the lines from other trails. CR Cutoff I also still see whales made and pushed out some years.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 4, 2021)

It would be really nice if reverse traverse could be modified to have less uphill and to have snowmaking. It would be really nice to be able to easily access Heaven’s Gate and some trails off of Bravo from Valley House on some days and it would further allow for Valley House to be much better suited as a true backup lift to Super Bravo. I don’t know how difficult this would do just with grading, permitting, etc, but it would be nice to have.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 4, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It would be really nice if reverse traverse could be modified to have less uphill and to have snowmaking. It would be really nice to be able to easily access Heaven’s Gate and some trails off of Bravo from Valley House on some days and it would further allow for Valley House to be much better suited as a true backup lift to Super Bravo. I don’t know how difficult this would do just with grading, permitting, etc, but it would be nice to have.


I agree on reverse traverse.  It sucks the only time you need to take it is when Bravo is down.  If Bravo is down, it means you are polling Reverse Traverse into a headwind.


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## jaybird (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Not before LBO.  LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland.  I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down.  But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.


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## Castlerockrisk (Jan 4, 2021)

I will place a vote for quality of snow making vs quantity. Its not only about the water - additional air and adding snow a little at a time instead of making a pile of ice thats needs to cure would be nice. I agree that the current system is impervious to most thaws and rain events and may be economical but the snow making of old skied better on most days. I have said my peace. Having said that I am glad that the mountain hosted a great holiday week considering the weather. I think that the guests were happy.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2021)

I understand that funds are very limited this season, it does seem like it has effected snowmaking production.   I know that the rain they have over Xmas kllled them.  But currently they are only blowing Murphy's and North Lynx.  Is it limited capacity or they are just trying not to spend what they would have in a normal year?


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2021)

They only have capacity to blow one trail at a time more or less.  What they are dong sounds about right.  Also it is not super cold so I bet they are confided to upper mountain.


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## mikec142 (Jan 5, 2021)

I'm certainly not a snowmaking expert, but it seems like SB is going to have a solid 10 day run of prime snowmaking conditions.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm certainly not a snowmaking expert, but it seems like SB is going to have a solid 10 day run of prime snowmaking conditions.


With no natural insight


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2021)

It is certainly getting colder this week.  Not so much last week.  They also have had lots of R*%$ so the water flow in the Mad River is up.  We will see how they do.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2021)

Honestly I think SB is doing quite well in the snow-making dept. They only have a handful of trails left at LP that they haven't blown snow on yet (Birdland, the Hot-Shot/Waterfall/Lower Hot-Shot route, Lower Snowball/Racer's, and Steins for the most part if I'm remembering everything correctly). That's pretty good considering the weather they've had.

If right now they're running guns on Murphy's, Birch, and Sunrise...I'd agree with Hawk that those together would be pretty much use up their capacity.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I understand that funds are very limited this season, it does seem like it has effected snowmaking production.   I know that the rain they have over Xmas kllled them.  But currently they are only blowing Murphy's and North Lynx.  Is it limited capacity or they are just trying not to spend what they would have in a normal year?


Funds are limited?  We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass.  They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC.  I'm not buying it.  That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2021)

Based on the temps and weather they have received, I think they are doing the best they can do.  We can't compare SB to other snowmaking giants.  They do not have the same philosophy.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Based on the temps and weather they have received, I think they are doing the best they can do.  We can't compare SB to other snowmaking giants.  They do not have the same philosophy.


Exactly.


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Funds are limited?  We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass.  They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC.  I'm not buying it.  That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.


The new team at Sugarbush has been blowing as much snow as physically possible. They can put out approximately 3,800 gallons per minute at LP and close to 2,500  at ME.  The amount depends upon Wet bulb temperatures and snowmaking doesn‘t begin to get efficient until it is below 25 wet bulb. The low energy guns can max around 80 GPM at cold temps so if you do the math who can figure out how many guns can run. When wet bulb temps are higher the guns may do only 20-30 GMP.  Earlier they were making snow at more marginal temperatures (28 wet bulb) than normal because the weather had been so warm and the Holidays were approaching. You also do not want snowmaking scattered all over the hill. The snowmakers have to stay on top of their work and be able to monitor and adjust as needed. Shady Jay can tell you what that is like.  Yesterday and today the temps are marginal but the week is getting colder. I would guess that the clusters will be Birch, Sunrise, Hot Shot. Alternatively Murphy‘s, Birdland and maybe capacity for elsewhere. Or Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge and finally Stein’s. After that at LP I would guess they will refresh where some more depth is needed and then on to the traditional Spring trails.  At ME after Cruiser and Looking look are done, Reimergasse (terrain park), Cliffs, CrackerJack Brambles remain.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

WinS said:


> The new team at Sugarbush has been blowing as much snow as physically possible. They can put out approximately 3,800 gallons per minute at LP and close to 2,500  at ME.  The amount depends upon Wet bulb temperatures and snowmaking doesn‘t begin to get efficient until it is below 25 wet bulb. The low energy guns can max around 80 GPM at cold temps so if you do the math who can figure out how many guns can run. When wet bulb temps are higher the guns may do only 20-30 GMP.  Earlier they were making snow at more marginal temperatures (28 wet bulb) than normal because the weather had been so warm and the Holidays were approaching. You also do not want snowmaking scattered all over the hill. The snowmakers have to stay on top of their work and be able to monitor and adjust as needed. Shady Jay can tell you what that is like.  Yesterday and today the temps are marginal but the week is getting colder. I would guess that the clusters will be Birch, Sunrise, Hot Shot. Alternatively Murphy‘s, Birdland and maybe capacity for elsewhere. Or Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge and finally Stein’s. After that at LP I would guess they will refresh where some more depth is needed and then on to the traditional Spring trails.  At ME after Cruiser and Looking look are done, Reimergasse (terrain park), Cliffs, CrackerJack Brambles remain.


Makes sense.  I figured it was more due to weather than money.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Funds are limited?  We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass.  They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC.  I'm not buying it.  That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.


They are making next to nothing in Food/Beverage, no Seasonal Programs, not many lessons, very few rentals,... do I need to go on? I am just being realistic about the top line revenue.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 5, 2021)

The issue with the snowmaking isnt money or intentions, its the temperatures.  Its been relatively warm.  see below from someone at Stowe.

    The temperatures have been very warm too.  Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....


    December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal.  And here's where it impacts snowmaking:


    Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min


    This December... 29F Max and 17F Min


    The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally.  That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking.  Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable.  MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

djd66 said:


> They are making next to nothing in Food/Beverage, no Seasonal Programs, not many lessons, very few rentals,... do I need to go on? I am just being realistic about the top line revenue.


Right, but as BMM posted, most of their revenue is from pass sales--IKON in particular.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but as BMM posted, most of their revenue is from pass sales--IKON in particular.


This is what he posted:
45% Mountain Access (lift tix, passes, etc.)
15% F&B
10% Ski School
10% Lodging
7% Retail
5% Rental
8% Misc./Other

55% is from everything else, I know nothing about their financials, but I am fairly certain the bottom line is way off.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

djd66 said:


> This is what he posted:
> 45% Mountain Access (lift tix, passes, etc.)
> 15% F&B
> 10% Ski School
> ...


Right.  

But this is moot since Win and others have said that it's the weather that is the big issue.  My point is it is not money.


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2021)

I'll give them credit for doing well making snow with their philosophy.  My preference would be to not park on a trail for a week and make giant piles but maybe run a couple days trying for even coverage by moving the guns, then move on for a couple days elsewhere then come back.  If this was done there could be more open like Murphy's and Birdland on snowmaking.  Yes, I am old school and love the Ratnicks and SR-7 guns and the snow they make but they just cost too much money to run.


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## mikec142 (Jan 5, 2021)

Base web cam shows it's been snowing for at least the past hour.  However, I'm not seeing snow at the summit snow stake and it looks like an inch at the mid-mountain stake with flurries there.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 5, 2021)

So is snow made on Upper FIS anymore and is that occurring right now or later this month?


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Funds are limited?  We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass.  They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC.  I'm not buying it.  That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.


What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So is snow made on Upper FIS anymore and is that occurring right now or later this month?



It was listed one day last week I think it was as having snow being made on it on the trail report that day. Not sure if that actually happened or not though. In general, yes, snow is still made on it.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 5, 2021)

Interesting article today re: the current winter weather situation. Outlook appears very boom or bust:









						The polar vortex is splitting in two, which may lead to weeks of wild winter weather
					

A dramatic spike in temperatures is occurring at high altitudes above the North Pole, where the air is thin and typically frigid. Known as a sudden stratospheric warming event, experts […]



					www.boston.com


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
> Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.


Well, again, does anyone have anything solid to say it was money as opposed to staffing and/or weather?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> What about epic and the snowmaking budget they gave Wildcat.
> Probably the slowest opening they've had in a very long time.


See the post in the Vail thread.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2021)

given the weather, i'm pretty impressed that they've gotten almost everything off of bravo, valley house, heavens gate, and gate house open. also lots at ellen. I'll be there, likely ellen, Saturday. been holed up since before new years eve.


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## shadyjay (Jan 5, 2021)

Ahhh... snowmaking up on North Lynx.  Always had mixed feelings about that pod.  It was a difficult area to set up, lots of double/triple hoses, the endless trail, a case or two of an emergency shutdown, and the task of stripping the trail (it was a lot easier in those Ratnik days).  Birch has something close to 40 hydrants and the trail is quite wide once you get past the first drop.  Sunrise always seemed to be less of a headache and came together quickly.   Typically, we'd tackle North Lynx essentially as its own operation for X amount of days.  You did not want to spread yourself out too thin (though one year IIRC we did Steins at the same time).  North Lynx was always a good time to run a couple towers on Pushover where you could always use snow, such as top of Pushover, top of Slowpoke, or top Easy Rider.  You don't want to leave any gun under a liftline unattended for too long, especially when a gun run could take as long as 4 hours (or more).  Wind shifts, frozen nukes, busted hoses, etc all come into play quite frequently on that little peak.  As a shift leader, you hoped by that point in the season that your crew has gotten it together before you get up there, 'cause you're gonna need everyone on their game.  They should be good with a shovel by that point, after dealing with the always-entertaining Downspout.

Given the way the weather's been, and I'm sure there are staffing issues as well, I'd say they're doing pretty good this year.  It does seem like North hasn't gotten much snowmaking so far.  The warmup didn't help, otherwise Inverness and Brambles would've been done by early Dec for GMVS.  I think I did see a mention of FIS getting a night or two of snowmaking in the past week.  That's an interesting and fun little trail to make on.


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## ducky (Jan 5, 2021)

There were some guns in place on FIS the other day.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 6, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Interesting article today re: the current winter weather situation. Outlook appears very boom or bust:
> 
> https://www.boston.com/uncategorize...ead-to-weeks-of-wild-winter-weather
> [/QUOTE]
> hopefully it’s a boom! We need a dump so we can put all this banter about snow making to bed.


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## shadyjay (Jan 6, 2021)

Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:

I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock.  Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT?  Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate?  I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:
> 
> I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock.  Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT?  Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate?  I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?


Probably not much natural over there.


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## Blurski (Jan 6, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:
> 
> I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock.  Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT?  Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate?  I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?


CR is my favorite, I’m hoping the mountain decides not to run the CR chair this season & is open for hiking only.


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## Castlerockrisk (Jan 6, 2021)

I would be interested to understand how the new low energy guns output at different temp/ wet bulb temp by a measurement such as cubic feet of snow and the weight of that snow per cubic foot that is produced per gallon of water at various temperatures and if the addition of addition of air or the reduction of water  or other atomization can improve the volume to weight.  I would think that the ultimate snow would be high volume low weight? Just curious if anyone knows the science and the way to measure performance? We all have preferences but wondering what we are comparing.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 6, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> Just out of curiosity sake, not necessarily for myself, but for others on here:
> 
> I have yet to see any mention of hiking permitted over to Castlerock.  Given the fact that most of the mountain is open, including the much lower elevation terrain, is there a reason why hiking has not been permitted via the LT?  Could it be because it would put too many people up on Heaven's Gate?  I can only imagine what the lift line would look like at the Rock this season (especially on a Saturday), given it being a double and the chairs spaced so far apart?


assume its thin as fuck and they dont want to have to send their patrol down after people who cant hack it.


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## cdskier (Jan 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> assume its thin as fuck and they dont want to have to send their patrol down after people who cant hack it.


That would be my guess as well. As of 1/2*, there was only 27" total snowfall for the season at the base and 39" at the mid-mountain (and that's not accounting for what was washed away in the rain and warmth). That's not much at lower elevations.

*I used 1/2 as the date as that's the last day I have an e-mailed snow report for some reason and only the e-mail version includes the base and mid-mountain totals. The website only shows the summit total. Does anyone else subscribe to the daily snow report and did anyone else stop receiving it suddenly a few days ago or is it just me? I checked my mailing list preferences and "Daily Snow Report" is still checked. And I did receive one of the "News" type e-mails this afternoon from Sugarbush.


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## shadyjay (Jan 6, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> I would be interested to understand how the new low energy guns output at different temp/ wet bulb temp by a measurement such as cubic feet of snow and the weight of that snow per cubic foot that is produced per gallon of water at various temperatures and if the addition of addition of air or the reduction of water  or other atomization can improve the volume to weight.  I would think that the ultimate snow would be high volume low weight? Just curious if anyone knows the science and the way to measure performance? We all have preferences but wondering what we are comparing.



For those just joining us, and for a quick refresher:

The "new" guns are designed to operate at a specific water pressure and use a miniscule amount of air compared to the older Ratnik guns.  They are considered "fixed flow".   The Ratniks you could adjust the water depending on the temperature... in marginal temps, you could turn the water way down and make snow, but the downside was they took up more air.  Way more air.  The colder it gets, the more water can be applied and thus less air is used.  Prior to the mtn getting the "low e" guns, early season, we may have gotten 5, 10, 15 guns online.  That doesn't get you very far down Jester or Downspout.  At the same time, we'd have all 3 compressors running (and in earlier years, they'd rent compressors) in order to produce the air needed for that small amount of guns.  As the temps got colder, air could be "gotten back" by wetting up the existing running guns.   

Now fast forward to the past 5-8 years... the new guns can now enable us to get all of Jester and a god portion of Downspout going, if not all of Downspout, on 1 compressor.  That is a considerable amount of cost (power) savings, and that is significant especially in these times.  The new guns are more elaborate, with moving parts, gauges, handles, etc, that are all suspeptible to the cold.   You can't just load 50 of them in the truck and toss them out like you could the Rats.  They also are considerably heavy, top heavy, and require more babysitting, especially if pointed the wrong way.  A ratnik tripod could be yanked out of a snowbank fairly easy, whereas a Snow Logic gun on a sled needs to be cleared of snow before you can move it, otherwise you're breaking the sled and rendering the gun useless.   The less air used also meant the guns have less of a throw, so the snow tends to end up closer to the sled, or on the sled itself, vs a Ratnik that could throw the snow 5-10' away.

Having worked with both, there are pros and cons to each.  The work got a lot more intense when the logics came out.  It required more manpower, more gun runs, more maintenance.  Some of the "art" of snowmaking was lost.... you no longer had to walk into the plume and check snow quality and then have your hydrant guy adjust the water up or down.  Finding that perfect mix of air and water was something I enjoyed... until you walked into a plume with the water cranked way up.... you were soaked for the rest of the run.... so you just worked extra hard to warm up (or have the rookie go into the plume on the next gun ;-) ).  

Yes, the logics do make a heavier snow consistency, especially in the high teens->20s range.  We did try to wait for a trail to "cure" before grooming it, so that mitigated the wet snow factor.  For snowmaking snow, you want a degree of heavier snow, since that's what makes it last through the season and able to take the beating of groomers nightly.   What does help the snow consistency with logics is the towers, which give the snow more "hangtime" before landing.  Logic (and HKD) towers do very well.  

During yearly orientation, we were given a manual to study and a couple hours of orientation was dedicated to talking about "snow science".  If you're interested in those details, you can apply in the fall.  I just wanted to touch on a few basics and a little insight.  This topic seems to come up every year.  And even though I'm out of the game now (maybe not forever... who knows what the future holds), I will continue to defend my "brothers in black" in the ongoing battle between man and mother nature, so that all can enjoy the winter season.  I enjoy talking about it and some nights, I really do miss it... not just snowmaking, but the mountain in general.


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## ducky (Jan 7, 2021)

Hiking to CR not open yet. I ducked onto Paradise woods but despite pretty good coverage, found the bottom several times. Minor edge damage. Still was fun to make some turns.


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> For those just joining us, and for a quick refresher:
> 
> The "new" guns are designed to operate at a specific water pressure and use a miniscule amount of air compared to the older Ratnik guns.  They are considered "fixed flow".   The Ratniks you could adjust the water depending on the temperature... in marginal temps, you could turn the water way down and make snow, but the downside was they took up more air.  Way more air.  The colder it gets, the more water can be applied and thus less air is used.  Prior to the mtn getting the "low e" guns, early season, we may have gotten 5, 10, 15 guns online.  That doesn't get you very far down Jester or Downspout.  At the same time, we'd have all 3 compressors running (and in earlier years, they'd rent compressors) in order to produce the air needed for that small amount of guns.  As the temps got colder, air could be "gotten back" by wetting up the existing running guns.
> 
> ...


Shady Jay, it is great  you are still engaging as you were one of our best and hardest working shift leaders and then were one of our lift leaders after snowmaking. I would add that before the low energy guns Sugarbush was ”air short”. We had three 6,000 CFM compressors at LP and two at ME. In early season all had to run and supplemental diesel compressors were brought it. Now it is rare when more than one runs on either side before the water is maxed out. The future the plan will be to increase the amount of water that can be brought up the mountain by increasing pipe diameter and some additional pump. Before COVID hit the initial planning for this was beginning. This is a multi-year and costly initiative. An unlimited amount of water can be withdrawn from the Mad River so long as the flow exceeds the February Mean Level flow. Thus, a plan for an additional snowmaking pond higher on the mountain. The water source at ME is much more limited.

FIS did run briefly but there were some valve leaks which needed repairing. I presume they will return there, but one wants to take advantage of temperatures lower when they are available.


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## Castlerockrisk (Jan 7, 2021)

Shady thanks for that. Compressors are dirty and energy hogs and since we all love the outdoors the reduction of energy use is important for all of us. I make my home in the MRV and after 35 plus season passes I fully respect the efforts of the team that keeps the mountain going. Your description about the sleds and weights of the guns was probably more enlightening than the physics of the snow making and I now better understand the mounding and the snow water density that requires curing. I have noticed that the groomers are taking extra efforts this year to grind out the cookies- and the slopes are noticeably more skiable after a couple of nights grooming. The new snow is also helping out tremondously and the skiing is getting better daily.

The water bars and runouts on CR are unsafe for most at this time.


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2021)

Jay and the boys work very hard.  I greatly appreciate what they do.  I have always wondered why SB has not budgeted and provided more hoses and gun set ups so that they do not have to break down and move the stuff.  That is a huge waste of time and effort.  This is what other mountains do.  I wonder what the payback is if you look at the hours spent breaking down, lugging equipment and setting up.
Also, If you run compressors with energy produced by solar or wind energy then you take that out of the equation.  Make no mistake, snowmaking made with more air is far better quality snowmaking.  Generally is has less water content at temps between 20 - 30.  This is fact not my interpretation.  
Again it comes down to the philosophy of the mountain.  They do the best they can with the funds they have allotted.


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## keyser soze (Jan 7, 2021)

Very interesting inside scoop on snowmaking above.  It seems to be great weather make snow this week.  Are they currently blowing any snow?


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## mikec142 (Jan 7, 2021)

Awesome info ShadyJay.  Thanks!


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 7, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Awesome info ShadyJay.  Thanks!



yes thank you.  I love hearing about stuff like that. 

And thanks to Win for still stopping by and keeping us in the loop.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> *I used 1/2 as the date as that's the last day I have an e-mailed snow report for some reason and only the e-mail version includes the base and mid-mountain totals. The website only shows the summit total. Does anyone else subscribe to the daily snow report and did anyone else stop receiving it suddenly a few days ago or is it just me? I checked my mailing list preferences and "Daily Snow Report" is still checked. And I did receive one of the "News" type e-mails this afternoon from Sugarbush.


And just like that...this morning I received the snow report by e-mail again!


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## HowieT2 (Jan 7, 2021)

great progress on opening terrain.  North lynx should come online shortly and then it’s pretty much there.  I feel as if every year these first 2 weeks in January r tough.  Real tough when following a bad December, both snowfall and temperature wise.  generally things pick up around mlk.


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## shadyjay (Jan 7, 2021)

And I answered my own question about the 'Rock...






						Sugarbush Snow Report & Mountain Conditions
					

Discover all information surrounding open trails, snow making and chair operations here!




					www.sugarbush.com
				






> On top of the current 83 trails, much of the Castlerock area opens for hiking from Paradise 10AM -3PM tomorrow and North Lynx is scheduled to open Saturday morning.


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## pinnoke (Jan 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> And just like that...this morning I received the snow report by e-mail again!


Having a connection to the reporting in the past, my guess is that someone unfamiliar with all the outlets might have been filling in for the regular reporter on that/those day(s).


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## slatham (Jan 7, 2021)

Shady great info, thanks. One question - the Snowlogics run on constant water, always? It just doesn't make sense to not alter water flow at 26WB vs 16 WB.

Do HKD's operate in the same way? I thought water flow was adjusted but I'm just an interested tourist not a snowmaker.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 7, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> great progress on opening terrain.  North lynx should come online shortly and then it’s pretty much there.  I feel as if every year these first 2 weeks in January r tough.  Real tough when following a bad December, both snowfall and temperature wise.  generally things pick up around mlk.


Don't they still have Steins to make snow on?  Do you guys think they will blow enough snow on Steins this year to stay open until May 2nd?


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## shadyjay (Jan 7, 2021)

slatham said:


> Shady great info, thanks. One question - the Snowlogics run on constant water, always? It just doesn't make sense to not alter water flow at 26WB vs 16 WB.
> 
> Do HKD's operate in the same way? I thought water flow was adjusted but I'm just an interested tourist not a snowmaker.



With SnowLogics (SLs), you have what are called "Steps" or "Banks".  As the temps drop, you can add more water to the gun to produce more snow.  As you add a bank, the water pressure at the gun drops, so you turn up the pressure at the hydrant to get it back up to the 400-600 range.  

HKDs essentially operate the same way, though they do use more air than the logics, but still significantly less than the Ratniks.  The HKD company is more tried and true than snow logic, they have been around for many years prior to SL with their tower guns.  The land guns are a relatively new tool in the arsenal.  I love their towers - they make really good snow and are less maintenance headaches than the SLs.  Trails like Spring Fling, SB, Racer's, Pushover really come together nice with the HKD towers, providing the wind is right.  Downspout used to be lined with them from OG flats down to HG, but we got rid of them due to the nightmare of skiers and groomers continuously burying them.  Then again, the wind was never right on DS for towers.

According to the report, looks like Birdland, Murphys, and Sunrise are currently getting treatment.  With North Lynx, you can't run both trails top to bottom at the same time due to the water pressure on the line.  The lower half of Sunrise always takes a little more, since its wider and there's some good waterbars/streams to fill in.  Then there's still HS/Waterfall, Lower SB/Racer's, and Stein's, then the spring build-up.  

All this talk of snowmaking makes me want to come up there so bad.  I've got a week off next week.,... not enough time for a 14-day quarantine.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2021)

ooo they're gonna open the hike this weekend eh? nice. i was gonna mount ellen saturday but this has me lincoln peakin i think. hopefully not too crowded (which is why the plan was for ellen). killington sunday.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 7, 2021)

So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making  snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?


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## Hawk (Jan 8, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ooo they're gonna open the hike this weekend eh? nice. i was gonna mount ellen saturday but this has me lincoln peakin i think. hopefully not too crowded (which is why the plan was for ellen). killington sunday.


From reports I got, there is less than a foot of natural snow in most locations.  Bring your rock skis.  Considering the amount of poaching that must be occurring,


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## ss20 (Jan 8, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making  snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?



Whales sit to let the water drain out of them so they'll groom out better.  SB blows wet snow- so they let the snow sit for a while.  K generally blows drier snow as most of their fleet is older high air guns, therefore they don't have to let the trail sit and drain as long.  Killington will let the whales sit for a few days when they use their low energy guns, which are similar Snowlogic's SB uses, iirc.  Even still it's pretty rare for K to immediately push out a trail after blowing regardless of the snow guns.  No matter what gun you use that's going to be a pretty crappy first groom if you immediately push it out.


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## Mt St Pipier (Jan 8, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making  snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?


The Bush seems to have cornered the market on blowing wet crappy snow into your face and then letting it sit for a week because 4 year olds find it fun.  You don't see it many other places.  Hopefully they'll eventually change.

Skiing With Whales​Bob Ackland • Feb 17, 2016
Here in the East, this season’s natural snow has been in short supply so skiing has been pretty much confined to manmade snow trails, and the short windows of good snowmaking temperatures have made me more aware of huge mounds of manmade snow often referred to as whales. Snowmaking whales are not new to me; I have disliked them for many years. I hate skiing amongst them, and think it is lousy skiing, and frankly unsafe in many situations. My own ops team would push back and say it was necessary to let the snow drain, which initially made sense, but drain for how long? What made me question the concept more recently is that I experienced certain mountains pushing manmade snow much sooner than what I was used to and the skiing at these mountains on these surfaces was very good. This triggered a bunch of questions.

I had the recent opportunity to share my questions with someone who knows a whole lot more than I do about snow making, that being Brian “Tito” Alex. Here’s what Tito shared with me:

Snowmaking Whales
“Skiing on “whales” can lend itself to liability, whereas “porpoises” (smaller rounded piles) are often welcomed by ski Instructors. The reason is because when compared to flat groomed trials, these features naturally force students to off-weight and turn. Before terrain parks were formalized, these porpoises were the “features” that attracted snowboarders for hits and air.

The newer snow guns are only a small part of the blame for the whales. The low-e snow particles are not the issue. The whales are commonly formed because the trend is to use stationary guns and hydrant spacing is incorrect. Thus snowmakers make big piles to cover the distance between hydrants. Proper hydrant spacing reduces this problem.

A bigger part of the blame for whales is how snowmaking is managed. Well-trained teams seldom make whales. This is due to the following reasons:

1. The cost is expensive for grooming machines to doze piles.

2. Deep snow insulates itself. The lack of surface area hinders evaporation and drying. Thus, product in the middle of the pile is wetter. When dozed and groomed the quality can be poor.

3. Snow Quality – Most snowmakers are taught to make wet snow from the belief that it is more durable: which is not true. Reality is that these snow particles are not fully frozen. In other words, a hard-boiled egg vs a soft-boiled egg. Thus, when a groomer gets on a new pile of snow, the water is released and the wet snow does not till well. “Death Cookies” is slang term for the poorly tilled snow. So once the problem has been created, the solution is to stay off the piles until the water drains out. (Waiting for piles to leach out also minimizes trail counts which directly effects revenue)

4. Low-e technology has significantly increased the number of snow guns that are running, while labor has remained the same. It is impossible for a crew to give the same attention to many more snow guns, thus whales are more common. Most snowmaking crews are understaffed and this is the fault of management. The ratio of online snow guns to field staff tells the story for at your resort. Does the ratio remain similar in all operating conditions?

5. The most guns are running when it is the coldest. This is the opportunity to make the most snow for the least expense. Comparably, food service, retail and rentals increase staff for peak performance periods like weekends and holidays. Yet, when it is cold and snowmaking has the opportunity for peak performance, the staff size typically remains the same. This management error can be solved with flex staffing. (We have data from many resorts that shows the decrease in efficiency when temps are cold. But because piles are big, managers believe that productivity is high and this is incorrect)

6. The easiest solution to having no whales and improved snow quality is to move and pivot the snow guns more frequently. For manual guns, this takes labor.

7. Automation – process control will always produce more snow, better quality and superior placement than manual operated equipment. Most automated fan guns have an oscillator function which reduces whales and allows for better evaporation of moisture.

In my experience, proper snow quality is ready to ski without any time for water to drain from it. Progressive resorts often groom first, and then make snow on the trail so that skiers get a better experience. This takes a well-trained crew and cooperating wind. It is often done with manual snow guns, although automation helps. ASC used to refer to this as retail snow – and customers loved it.”

Tito and I are sharing information that might be disputed and questions management practices as they relate to snowmaking. We both fully recognize many of the challenges, money, labor and weather. However, I will add, significant amounts of dollars are being invested in snowmaking equipment without addressing the operational issues pointed out here. This is unfortunate and only compounds the disappointment of the skier or rider experience.

The challenge of labor has been apparent this season especially in the East, where snowmaking windows have been tight and crews are not large enough to take advantage of the weather windows. This problem will not fix itself as we all know, and as we look to next year’s planning, the discussions as to snowmaking management should be front and center with new ideas batted around the table.

Tito and I would be more than happy to work with you on developing a training/operating plan that enables you to maximize the output of your system and chases the whales out to sea.

whales-2Contact information for Tito:
Brian Tito Alex
SnowmakingEfficiency.com
406-261-6216


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## Blurski (Jan 8, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Jay and the boys work very hard.  I greatly appreciate what they do.  I have always wondered why SB has not budgeted and provided more hoses and gun set ups so that they do not have to break down and move the stuff.  That is a huge waste of time and effort.  This is what other mountains do.  I wonder what the payback is if you look at the hours spent breaking down, lugging equipment and setting up.
> Also, If you run compressors with energy produced by solar or wind energy then you take that out of the equation.  Make no mistake, snowmaking made with more air is far better quality snowmaking.  Generally is has less water content at temps between 20 - 30.  This is fact not my interpretation.
> Again it comes down to the philosophy of the mountain.  They do the best they can with the funds they have allotted.


AT $850/100ft x 75 guns x 4/gun = $255k/$30/hr Burden rate = 8,500mh/5man crew/8hr shift = 212days of snow making and paid off, say 4 years. Dont know if they last that long or not.


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## machski (Jan 8, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making  snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?





Mt St Pipier said:


> The Bush seems to have cornered the market on blowing wet crappy snow into your face and then letting it sit for a week because 4 year olds find it fun.  You don't see it many other places.  Hopefully they'll eventually change.
> 
> Skiing With Whales​Bob Ackland • Feb 17, 2016
> Here in the East, this season’s natural snow has been in short supply so skiing has been pretty much confined to manmade snow trails, and the short windows of good snowmaking temperatures have made me more aware of huge mounds of manmade snow often referred to as whales. Snowmaking whales are not new to me; I have disliked them for many years. I hate skiing amongst them, and think it is lousy skiing, and frankly unsafe in many situations. My own ops team would push back and say it was necessary to let the snow drain, which initially made sense, but drain for how long? What made me question the concept more recently is that I experienced certain mountains pushing manmade snow much sooner than what I was used to and the skiing at these mountains on these surfaces was very good. This triggered a bunch of questions.
> ...


Interesting article, unfortunately the authors are quite late to the party.  Decades ago when Sunday River (and yes, after LBO bought SB, SB too to some extent) used ground SR7/14 guns that were easily moved around, it was rare to see a newly blown trail with huge whales.  The snowmaking team would move the guns around quite a bit during the make cycle to give a more uniform coverage over the trails.  When the first tower air guns came out and started reducing energy use, SR bucked that trend and stayed with its ground guns to maintain a uniform distribution rather than blowing a trail with huge Whales.  That gave way to the SR7 tower guns, which still used a ton of air but were constantly set up and ready to go (maybe you had to drag hose to and from) saving manpower time.  They make whales, but elongated ones due to the substantial throw distance they have.  Sugarbush had some of these, the last I remember were on Stein's.  Don't ski enough to know if they finally changed those out, others will need to verify.  Then the push to Low-E style guns, now SR is predominantly HKD SV-10 or its successors.  And we often get big, wet whales very close to the guns that then need to "cure" usually for 24-48 hours depending on humidity levels before being pushed out .  Obviously the old way witht he ground guns produced a better immediate product which was fine when electrical energy was cheap in the 80's/90's.  Now, if we want the snow down, we have to deal with the less immediately good version.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 8, 2021)

ahhhh, what would a ski season be without the annual snowmaking debate?  carry on.

Hawk, Ben skied yesterday and reported definite rock ski conditions on the natural snow trails.


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## TSQURD (Jan 8, 2021)

But the rocks and grass poking through on the natural trails really help with depth perception in the flat light late in the day! The snow that is there is really nice


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## ducky (Jan 8, 2021)

Hiked over today. Plenty of rocks, open water bars, and mostly wind slab. Only went once as a result.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2021)

ducky said:


> Hiked over today. Plenty of rocks, open water bars, and mostly wind slab. Only went once as a result.



yea that makes sense. think i will stick w original plan to ski ellen tomorrow. havent been yet this year and would like to avoid Saturday pile ups waiting for heavens gate


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## shipyardcreek (Jan 8, 2021)

Middle Earth was good except for Jaws.  The down hill sections of the Long Trail had rocks and other debris so be cautious if you go over.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 9, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea that makes sense. think i will stick w original plan to ski ellen tomorrow. havent been yet this year and would like to avoid Saturday pile ups waiting for heavens


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## WinS (Jan 9, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Jay and the boys work very hard.  I greatly appreciate what they do.  I have always wondered why SB has not budgeted and provided more hoses and gun set ups so that they do not have to break down and move the stuff.  That is a huge waste of time and effort.  This is what other mountains do.  I wonder what the payback is if you look at the hours spent breaking down, lugging equipment and setting up.
> Also, If you run compressors with energy produced by solar or wind energy then you take that out of the equation.  Make no mistake, snowmaking made with more air is far better quality snowmaking.  Generally is has less water content at temps between 20 - 30.  This is fact not my interpretation.
> Again it comes down to the philosophy of the mountain.  They do the best they can with the funds they have allotted.


Every year there are many many CAPEX requests and available dollars need to be prioritized. A lot of land gear has been added and each year hose is purchased. If one had unlimited capital or free money of course the ideal would be to have all hydrants set up and ready to go, but that is not practical. Part of the annual snowmaking capital improvement dollars have gone to repairing valves and hydrants, patching and /or replacing older pipe as well as purchasing new towers, land guns, hoses, compressors, manifolds, pumps, etc.  There is a lot that goes into maintaining a snowmaking system. 

Snowlogic (an Australian company) actually pioneered the low energy equipment over a decade ago, and we were one of the first in the USA to use them. The first were very large, heavy and challenging to move around, but they added towers and smaller land guns which you now see. HKD followed and Sugarbush has  also purchased their SV-10 towers and land guns. Each have certain advantages.

Hawk is right about air, but  just about everyone I know has moved to low energy equipment when they purchase new equipment. Of course, many like Killington who have very large air capacity still use ratniks and other “air pigs” but the future is low energy for many reasons. 

Also it is important to understand that every mountain has unique characteristics that determine what equipment is best for them. Ideally one would love to have towers but they can not be used on narrow trails like Jester or under lifts. They are great on trails like Snowball, Spring Fling, Stein‘s, Cruiser, Inverness.  Wind is also a consideration.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2021)

ellen was fun today. thin as all fuck, but widely open and fun. i went to the woods skiers left of bravo just to pee and look and promptly turned around post pee. woods are sketch, especially ellen woods which tend to be kind of tight and debris-ish. and i have a high tolerance for sketch woods.


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## Boxtop Willie (Jan 10, 2021)

Absolutely a beautiful day at SB. Sunny, low 20s, not too crowed, snow is good.. Gate House was busy, Bravo not so much, Valley House ski on at 11am. Heavens' gate ebbed and flowed. They are blowing a ton on snow. Guns on Murphys and Birdland, towers and land guns on Snowball, Lower Snowball and Racers Edge. Based on Win's snow making math from earlier in this thread SB is making snow at their maximum water capacity. 
Given reports from other New England resorts, anybody else real happy SB was sold to Alterra and not Vail?


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 10, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Absolutely a beautiful day at SB. Sunny, low 20s, not too crowed, snow is good.. Gate House was busy, Bravo not so much, Valley House ski on at 11am. Heavens' gate ebbed and flowed. They are blowing a ton on snow. Guns on Murphys and Birdland, towers and land guns on Snowball, Lower Snowball and Racers Edge. Based on Win's snow making math from earlier in this thread SB is making snow at their maximum water capacity.
> Given reports from other New England resorts, anybody else real happy SB was sold to Alterra and not Vail?


Agreed. Pretty incredible snow conditions (on snowmaking trails) and weather with that awesome inversion this morning. Other than Sunrise, every other groomed trail was incredible.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 10, 2021)

The whales on Murphys are gigantic,  Are they going to try to keep it open latter in the season?

Edit:  Beautiful inversion on top of HG today


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## WinS (Jan 10, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Agreed. Pretty incredible snow conditions (on snowmaking trails) and weather with that awesome inversion this morning. Other than Sunrise, every other groomed trail was incredible.


First grooms on trails line Sunrise are rarely great except for first runs down. I was one of the first down Sunrise, and it skied well but after that ”chicken heads“ appear. Second groom will be must better. What has helped a lot is temperatures have stayed below freezing so the quality has held up. While you see a lot of guns  running the temps have been marginal so they are probably only running on bank two. I suspect Murphy’s will be shut down and capacity used elsewhere. The Whales have been this big in prior years and the snow is pushed over to cover Skier’s left.


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## tumbler (Jan 10, 2021)

*skiers right


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## WinS (Jan 10, 2021)

tumbler said:


> *skiers right


Of course, looker’s left skier’s right! Must be tired after a good day on the slopes


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 10, 2021)

WinS said:


> First grooms on trails line Sunrise are rarely great except for first runs down. I was one of the first down Sunrise, and it skied well but after that ”chicken heads“ appear. Second groom will be must better. What has helped a lot is temperatures have stayed below freezing so the quality has held up. While you see a lot of guns  running the temps have been marginal so they are probably only running on bank two. I suspect Murphy’s will be shut down and capacity used elsewhere. The Whales have been this big in prior years and the snow is pushed over to cover Skier’s left.


It seems that the first groom is always chunky. Birch skied much better than yesterday. I remember Pushover’s first groom was similar. One thing I did notice was a Ratnik style gun running on Lower Snowball. It’s the only one I’ve seen running this season.


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## mikec142 (Jan 11, 2021)

Skied as a single both days.  Couple of thoughts:

1.  The inversion on Sunday provided some of the coolest views I've ever experienced in VT.  I'd seen people post pix all week and rushed over on Saturday to see if I could see it firsthand.  Was bummed that it wasn't there so I was pretty excited as I drove up on Sunday to see the clouds and sun.  Couldn't wait to get up top.

2.  Again, staff and skiers are making skiing during Covid a comfortable experience for me.  Lifties are really managing the lines well.  I never waited more than a few minutes anywhere.

3.  While not ideal, I didn't mind the grooms on Birch and Sunrise.  I finished the weekend with a run down Sunrise to Sleeper.  Was planning to head straight to the car, but Sleeper was so good that I felt the need to take a quick ride up GH and do one more down Sleeper.  I wanted to do a finishing run on Snowball to Lower Snowball, but didn't like the idea of finishing up under the guns and throwing all my wet clothes in the car.

4.  On Saturday, I skied LP til 1pm and then hopped in my car and drove to ME.  Wolfed down a PB&J along the way and skied ME from 1:30-3:30pm.  I thought that ME's groomed runs (Rim Run, Joe's, Which Way, etc.) were significantly icier than any of the groomed runs at LP.  Maybe it can be contributed to a later in the day thing or tired legs.

5.  Was surprised at how packed the lot was at ME at 1:15pm although there were no lift lines at all.

6.  What's the latest date that Slidebrook and Castlerock (lifts) ever started?


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2021)

The big talk form Sunday was the Spectacular sun-bow with multiple sun-dogs that appeared when you made it above the cloud level.  People were saying that they have never soon anything like it.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ellen was fun today. thin as all fuck, but widely open and fun. i went to the woods skiers left of bravo just to pee and look and promptly turned around post pee. woods are sketch, especially ellen woods which tend to be kind of tight and debris-ish. and i have a high tolerance for sketch woods.


"High tolerance for sketch woods." that's great!  I might have to borrow that 1.  I know I've found  the goods when I get back to the lift and somebody tells me my face is bleeding.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 11, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Skied as a single both days.  Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1.  The inversion on Sunday provided some of the coolest views I've ever experienced in VT.  I'd seen people post pix all week and rushed over on Saturday to see if I could see it firsthand.  Was bummed that it wasn't there so I was pretty excited as I drove up on Sunday to see the clouds and sun.  Couldn't wait to get up top.
> 
> ...


From what I’ve heard, there’s been a few seasons where Slide Brook and Castlerock either didn’t open at all or only operated for a few days. Looking at last year, January was kind of meh for the most part, but February was great. 100% open and quite a few bluebird days and a lot of snow too. February 2018 had that 70 degree day which knocked their trail count way down and even trails like Lower Jester were closed. I believe they also got a big storm in the beginning of March that year which allowed them to bounce back. I came later that month and it was pretty much 100% open IIRC.


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## mikec142 (Jan 11, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> February 2018 had that 70 degree day which knocked their trail count way down and even trails like Lower Jester were closed. I believe they also got a big storm in the beginning of March that year which allowed them to bounce back. I came later that month and it was pretty much 100% open IIRC.


If I'm remembering my years correctly, March 2018 was winter storm Skylar where SB received 60" over 3 days.  I skied the weekend that followed (3/17-18) and to this day it was one of the best weekends I can recall.  I also skied two weeks later on 4/1-2 right after a quick warm spell and it was like night and day.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 11, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> "High tolerance for sketch woods." that's great!  I might have to borrow that 1.  I know I've found  the goods when I get back to the lift and somebody tells me my face is bleeding.



glad to say that killington's sketch woods on Sunday were not too sketch to ski. 

'dude's car got a little dinged up tho' - walter sobchek


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## Powder Whore (Jan 11, 2021)

Any body been down tumbler?  It's roped off  at the bottom where the access road for the sb chair is .  If one was to exit skiers  left it's 70 yards  or so of moderate uphill pitch. To the right its even more uphill all the way to sb lifeline. I ducked the rope and skied down in clear view of a patroller. I was nervous that we were going to have  a " talk".  Luckily said patroller didn't hassle me.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 11, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Any body been down tumbler?  It's roped off  at the bottom where the access road for the sb chair is .  If one was to exit skiers  left it's 70 yards  or so of moderate uphill pitch. To the right its even more uphill all the way to sb lifeline. I ducked the rope and skied down in clear view of a patroller. I was nervous that we were going to have  a " talk".  Luckily said patroller didn't hassle me.



i skied tumbler saturday. it was kind of weirdly roped off at the bottom. i presume there's waterbars? the exit is a narrow path thru the woods skier's left but it wasn't at all obvious at first. i wouldn't say it was moderate uphill pitch tho, a few shuffle steps and a shimmy thru the trees to pop out onto the next trail skier's left.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i skied tumbler saturday. it was kind of weirdly roped off at the bottom. i presume there's waterbars? the exit is a narrow path thru the woods skier's left but it wasn't at all obvious at first. i wouldn't say it was moderate uphill pitch tho, a few shuffle steps and a shimmy thru the trees to pop out onto the next trail skier's left.


I was talking about the access rd as an exit. I may have embellished a little to justify ducking the rope! Ether way its kind of odd, as you mentioned 
there is no clear direction.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Any body been down tumbler?  It's roped off  at the bottom where the access road for the sb chair is .  If one was to exit skiers  left it's 70 yards  or so of moderate uphill pitch. To the right its even more uphill all the way to sb lifeline. I ducked the rope and skied down in clear view of a patroller. I was nervous that we were going to have  a " talk".  Luckily said patroller didn't hassle me.


I skied Hammerhead. Really rocky.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2021)

A video with Hammond was posted on SB's social media channels... Nothing particularly noteworthy other than the fact that apparently a lot of people have been e-mailing him complaining about "dangerous trails being open". WTF? Who are these people? SB is pretty well known for having a lenient trail opening policy. If you think a trail is too "dangerous" (due to thin cover, snowmaking whales, etc)...stay off it and go ski a different trail (there's plenty of groomed options). I guess people think those warning signs patrol puts up about "advanced skiers only" or "thin cover", etc are just for show? Hammond did tell those people politely in the video that their complaints aren't valid...


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 11, 2021)

i would hate to see sugarbush retreat from the 'throw up an experts only disc and let them have at it' terrain opening policy

safe assumption that these complaints are from new ikon customers who have never had a sugarbush season pass before?


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i would hate to see sugarbush retreat from the 'throw up an experts only disc and let them have at it' terrain opening policy
> 
> safe assumption that these complaints are from new ikon customers who have never had a sugarbush season pass before?



Definitely possible that's where they're from. Doubt they're longtime SB regulars. I don't think you'll see SB change their policy anytime soon. Hammond talked about SB believing in "personal responsibility" or something like that.


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## shadyjay (Jan 11, 2021)

I think Hammond addressed it quite well in the video.  If you don't like the way the trail looks, don't take it!  Don't knock people who will.  It's their choice.  I used to look at those trails and be like "yeah, right" and move on.... way beyond my ability, but if someone wants to have at it, then go for it!  I believed Sugarbush had/has some of the best skiers around, and they didn't get that good by just skiing the groomers.  And that goes for the patrollers too... excellent skiers and riders!  If Sugarbush patrol thinks a trail should be closed, then up goes the rope.  And like I've said before... if the rope is up, it's up for a reason!


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## ducky (Jan 12, 2021)

Ha ha


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## ss20 (Jan 12, 2021)

I understand what people are saying about SB's policy.  It is very lenient which is great.  I don't think this should change, but sometimes I've skied "thin cover" stuff  that's awesome and other times I've skied "thin cover" stuff that just destroys skis, requires picking your way down, and wastes 15 minutes of the day.  

Maybe there could be a way to differentiate different levels of coverage on the natural trails?  If there's a green lollipop up top it's good/well-covered.  Yellow lollipop means use extra caution/quite a few hazards/low snow pack.  Red mean many hazards, rocks, walking may be necessary.  

This would be simple and cheap to implement.  And a great way to keep the trail policy but give people an adequate head's up.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2021)

meh. if you proceed onto a black with an experts only - thin cover disc at the top, you deserve your fate whatever it may be.


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## mikec142 (Jan 12, 2021)

I love the sign at the base of the Castlerock lift.  

"Please Note:  The trails accessed by this lift are for EXPERTS ONLY!  Every trail has moguls with thin cover!  There is no easy way down!  Did we mention rocks?!?!  NO GROOMING!!


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## ktrerotola (Jan 12, 2021)

Really liked the candor in Hammond's video - Sugarbush should probably consider using that same candor in the daily snow report, not unlike MRG does. Look I am ALL for opening the thin cover trails and allowing skiers to assume such risk - frankly, the groomers get boring and I welcome the challenge of the gnarly terrain (my skis may have a different opinion) -  but putting myself in the shoes of someone unfamiliar with the mountain and its terrain, reading that SB "has the most open acreage in the East," could be misleading without REALLY disclosing the condition of many trails. If anything, I hope that Hammond's video is that start of Sugarbush sharing more honest snow reports, too. Honestly getting tired of the slander that is East Coast ski resort snow reports!


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I understand what people are saying about SB's policy.  It is very lenient which is great.  I don't think this should change, but sometimes I've skied "thin cover" stuff  that's awesome and other times I've skied "thin cover" stuff that just destroys skis, requires picking your way down, and wastes 15 minutes of the day.
> 
> Maybe there could be a way to differentiate different levels of coverage on the natural trails?  If there's a green lollipop up top it's good/well-covered.  Yellow lollipop means use extra caution/quite a few hazards/low snow pack.  Red mean many hazards, rocks, walking may be necessary.
> 
> This would be simple and cheap to implement.  And a great way to keep the trail policy but give people an adequate head's up.



An open trail at Sugarbush marked as "thin cover" means it is skiable, but you may or may not encounter the items listed under your "yellow" and "red" definitions. Two of us can ski the same trail at the same time but take different lines and encounter substantially different conditions. I might know skier's right of a particular section of trail is usually thinner than skier's left while you might not know that. I'll say "that run was thin but great" based on the experience on my line while you'll say "that was thin and a challenge to navigate." Simply saying "thin cover" covers all the bases. When you start providing "Ratings" of the "thin cover", then you open yourself up to further problems (conditions changing throughout the day from one rating to another, one person's definition of yellow may be different than someone else's, etc). A rating system just over-complicates things and is nowhere near as simple as you suggest. People sometimes have a hard enough time grasping the concept that a black diamond at Sugarbush is not the same as a black diamond at some ski area in the Poconos. I can only imagine how much of a problem people would have with a color coded "coverage" rating system.

It comes down to you need to take personal accountability/responsibility and learn the area you are visiting/skiing and become familiar with how they rate trails and conditions. Don't just jump onto a trail without knowing anything about it. Worst case, ask someone else. You also need to use some common sense. We haven't exactly had a lot of natural snow yet this year. What do people expect to encounter on natural trails with so little snow having fallen?


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

ktrerotola said:


> Really liked the candor in Hammond's video - Sugarbush should probably consider using that same candor in the daily snow report, not unlike MRG does. Look I am ALL for opening the thin cover trails and allowing skiers to assume such risk - frankly, the groomers get boring and I welcome the challenge of the gnarly terrain (my skis may have a different opinion) -  but putting myself in the shoes of someone unfamiliar with the mountain and its terrain, reading that SB "has the most open acreage in the East," could be misleading without REALLY disclosing the condition of many trails. If anything, I hope that Hammond's video is that start of Sugarbush sharing more honest snow reports, too. Honestly getting tired of the slander that is East Coast ski resort snow reports!



I'm in favor of more of that same candor in the snow report. And it is something SB has certainly done plenty of times (i.e. they often say things like "Natural trails are thin and obstacles do exist. Take it slow until you know.")

But then again, I've come across a lot of people over the years that don't even bother to read the reports or look at a map. I've had questions on the lifts from people asking questions about what trails were groomed or what time a particular chairlift opens/closes or how you get to the Gatehouse lift, etc. (I always help people out when they ask, but it often is abundantly clear they didn't even look at the snow or trail report).


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 12, 2021)

There is open,  then there is Sugarbush open which is a joke amongst some people I have traveled to VT with in the past.   I appreciate that they sign appropriately and give you a warning.  That's enough.


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## djd66 (Jan 12, 2021)

Not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying - But - did any of you ski Sleeper 2 days after it opened? I have no idea what people are complaining about to Hammond, but the day I skied it was absolutely horrendous - complete bullet proof on the headwall.  Yeah, they had a gate at the top advising people what they were getting into - but plenty of peeps still went.  I made it down fine.  But I was watching people go down it and it was scary to watch. I always think of the guy that died on that trail a few years back coming off the headwall - and certainly was thinking of him that day.


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## ss20 (Jan 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> An open trail at Sugarbush marked as "thin cover" means it is skiable, but you may or may not encounter the items listed under your "yellow" and "red" definitions. Two of us can ski the same trail at the same time but take different lines and encounter substantially different conditions. I might know skier's right of a particular section of trail is usually thinner than skier's left while you might not know that. I'll say "that run was thin but great" based on the experience on my line while you'll say "that was thin and a challenge to navigate." Simply saying "thin cover" covers all the bases. When you start providing "Ratings" of the "thin cover", then you open yourself up to further problems (conditions changing throughout the day from one rating to another, one person's definition of yellow may be different than someone else's, etc). A rating system just over-complicates things and is nowhere near as simple as you suggest. People sometimes have a hard enough time grasping the concept that a black diamond at Sugarbush is not the same as a black diamond at some ski area in the Poconos. I can only imagine how much of a problem people would have with a color coded "coverage" rating system.
> 
> It comes down to you need to take personal accountability/responsibility and learn the area you are visiting/skiing and become familiar with how they rate trails and conditions. Don't just jump onto a trail without knowing anything about it. Worst case, ask someone else. You also need to use some common sense. We haven't exactly had a lot of natural snow yet this year. What do people expect to encounter on natural trails with so little snow having fallen?



I totally agree- it's certainly a judgement call on conditions and yes they change rapidly and it can vary depending on which side of the trail you're on.  But it's quite similar to the trail difficulty rating system as you bring up, in that it's never going to be perfect and is always subjective.  I certainly think my idea would help people out with deciding whether or not they want to ski that trail.  Especially for someone like myself who's been to SB 10-15 times in my life- I certainly know my way around the the basic trouble spots, but I'm still hesitant to ski a trail with "thin cover" I'm not totally familiar with.


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## njred (Jan 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i would hate to see sugarbush retreat from the 'throw up an experts only disc and let them have at it' terrain opening policy
> 
> safe assumption that these complaints are from new ikon customers who have never had a sugarbush season pass before?


I am one of those new ikon customers who never had a sugarbush season pass before.   I skied at SB once last season for the first time ever before heading out to Tahoe for the winter.  This season so far I've done 3 days at SB and I thought the terrain opening was totally reasonable and even a little bit conservative.  Although I recommend they switch the warnings to a rating system based on a number of rock skis.  One rock skis = expect some minor scratches.  Two rock skis = expect deep gashes.  Three rock skis = core shot time!


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## HowieT2 (Jan 12, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying - But - did any of you ski Sleeper 2 days after it opened? I have no idea what people are complaining about to Hammond, but the day I skied it was absolutely horrendous - complete bullet proof on the headwall.  Yeah, they had a gate at the top advising people what they were getting into - but plenty of peeps still went.  I made it down fine.  But I was watching people go down it and it was scary to watch. I always think of the guy that died on that trail a few years back coming off the headwall - and certainly was thinking of him that day.


funny.  I skied sleeper one of those days.  I should have known better because my son, who had skied it the day before, and is usually up for anything, refused to go.  Anyway, I skied down the headwall and there were 2 patrollers trying to get a pole in the ground where sleeper road meets sleeper, so I stopped to tell them that the ice was really bad, like for real bad.  That's when I fell on my ass (actually my side and my elbow).    thankfull I can laugh about it now.


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## Blurski (Jan 12, 2021)

I don't see any change required, the majority of the runs are somewhat visible from a chair or skiing an intersecting trail, if in doubt don't go pretty simple. Remember you can't fix stupid.

I skied multiple runs on Steins and The Mall this weekend snow was good, looking ahead and turn placement was key, I actually enjoyed it, much more technical skiing, a few minor rock hits but nothing of concern. Don't get me wrong, if you do not have the ability to place your turns precisely you could wreck a pair of skis in a heart beat.

I also ventured over to CR for a Middle Earth run, the Long Trail in my book was treacherous for both body & skis, I chose to boot pack the entire length to save both, again once skiing I had no issues linking turns and enjoyed the challenge it presented.

This type of skiing is great training in my book for skiing much more difficult terrain, just not for most I guess.

Everyone needs to analyze their own risk reward meter.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 12, 2021)

njred said:


> I am one of those new ikon customers who never had a sugarbush season pass before.   I skied at SB once last season for the first time ever before heading out to Tahoe for the winter.  This season so far I've done 3 days at SB and I thought the terrain opening was totally reasonable and even a little bit conservative.  Although I recommend they switch the warnings to a rating system based on a number of rock skis.  One rock skis = expect some minor scratches.  Two rock skis = expect deep gashes.  Three rock skis = core shot time!


welcome aboard!

I'm fine with the way it is.  If the sign says thin cover, its thin cover.  If the trail is closed, it must be for damned good reason, and since I pay for my own skis, I ain't messing around.


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## kingslug (Jan 12, 2021)

The megapasses are bringing new people to these places..they will learn soon enough.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2021)

this thin cover season has had me on my rock skis each of my 13 days so far. even the big pow day. was nervous with no base underneath. i have brand new unskied black crows corvus that I'm scared to take out yet. the rock skis have gotten absolutely trashed. and the rock skis double as my touring ski, so its a bit annoying. but all good. skis are made to be shredded.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 12, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I love the sign at the base of the Castlerock lift.
> 
> "Please Note:  The trails accessed by this lift are for EXPERTS ONLY!  Every trail has moguls with thin cover!  There is no easy way down!  Did we mention rocks?!?!  NO GROOMING!!


Today at MRG.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 12, 2021)

As far as SB If people can't ski the natural trials with thin cover do they really belong on these trails in the first place?


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## njred (Jan 12, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> welcome aboard!
> 
> I'm fine with the way it is.  If the sign says thin cover, its thin cover.  If the trail is closed, it must be for damned good reason, and since I pay for my own skis, I ain't messing around.



Thanks!

I was mostly tongue-in-cheek with the comment about switching to rock skis rating system.. Overall I didn't think any of the opened diamonds were bad.. Most of them had good skiing.   Some just looked bad but had tons of soft snow.   I only got some scratches on my new Volkl Mantra after 3 days of "rock skiing" on those thinly covered trails. No big deal.


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> View attachment 50022Today at MRG.



Hah! Dust on Dirt...that's a good one!


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## kingslug (Jan 12, 2021)

expert skier you better be hunter sign - Google Search
		


Always a favorite.


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## teleo (Jan 12, 2021)

I like the policy as it is.  Take the rock skiis if U plan on skiing thin cover trails.

I have seen "thin cover,  some walking required" a couple times to let people know what to expect on jaws and the usual part of paradise.  

The other interesting one is the 2 ways out to lunch is marked.  A closed sign means closed for the beginners but go ahead homeowners.  A rope means you'll soon be walking home.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> this thin cover season has had me on my rock skis each of my 13 days so far. even the big pow day. was nervous with no base underneath. i have brand new unskied black crows corvus that I'm scared to take out yet. the rock skis have gotten absolutely trashed. and the rock skis double as my touring ski, so its a bit annoying. but all good. skis are made to be shredded.


I also had rock skis that doubled as my touring skis.  Unfortunately, the bindings suffered a catastrophic failure.  So now I have brand new blizzard zero G 95's but no rock skis.


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## ktrerotola (Jan 12, 2021)

Blurski said:


> I don't see any change required, the majority of the runs are somewhat visible from a chair or skiing an intersecting trail, if in doubt don't go pretty simple. Remember you can't fix stupid.
> 
> I skied multiple runs on Steins and The Mall this weekend snow was good, looking ahead and turn placement was key, I actually enjoyed it, much more technical skiing, a few minor rock hits but nothing of concern. Don't get me wrong, if you do not have the ability to place your turns precisely you could wreck a pair of skis in a heart beat.
> 
> ...


Totally agree -- the worst part of CR was the ski sections of the LT. Aside from the standard river on Middle Earth, the snow held nicely there on Saturday. Castle Rock run snow was good on both Saturday and Sunday. I love feeling like you have the place to yourself (especially when the lift lines elsewhere are a tad insufferable.)

Anything thing they counted the LT in the "most open acreage in the East"?


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

teleo said:


> I like the policy as it is.  Take the rock skiis if U plan on skiing thin cover trails.
> 
> I have seen "thin cover,  some walking required" a couple times to let people know what to expect on jaws and the usual part of paradise.
> 
> The other interesting one is the 2 ways out to lunch is marked.  A closed sign means closed for the beginners but go ahead homeowners.  A rope means you'll soon be walking home.


Interesting...I never knew that about Out to Lunch. 

I have also seen the "some walking required" signs in the past (namely I recall seeing it at the CR cutoff trail warning you what to expect at CR). I still recall skiing all the way down CR that day without any walking (although I'm sure it depends what trail you took).


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## ss20 (Jan 12, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> As far as SB If people can't ski the natural trials with thin cover do they really belong on these trails in the first place?



It's not a question of "can" it's more about desire and preserving skis/boards.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2021)

i just learned that the 'sugarbush historic village' was a thing. i have never seen it or been to it or any of the businesses that are allegedly in it. weird.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> As far as SB If people can't ski the natural trials with thin cover do they really belong on these trails in the first place?


Yep, those natural trials are always fun.....


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## Powder Whore (Jan 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep, those natural trials are always fun.....


They certainly don't  get any less difficult  with waist  high bumps lol.


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## Howitzer (Jan 12, 2021)

ktrerotola said:


> Really liked the candor in Hammond's video - Sugarbush should probably consider using that same candor in the daily snow report, not unlike MRG does. Look I am ALL for opening the thin cover trails and allowing skiers to assume such risk - frankly, the groomers get boring and I welcome the challenge of the gnarly terrain (my skis may have a different opinion) -  but putting myself in the shoes of someone unfamiliar with the mountain and its terrain, reading that SB "has the most open acreage in the East," could be misleading without REALLY disclosing the condition of many trails. If anything, I hope that Hammond's video is that start of Sugarbush sharing more honest snow reports, too. Honestly getting tired of the slander that is East Coast ski resort snow reports!


Might as well do away with the 'Double Black' Diamond rating while they're at it. Novice, intermediate and expert covers the spectrum. I never understood the need for double diamonds in the first place outside of marketing. It seems to work fine at other ski areas that keep it simple in this regard. Any update on those new and improved webcams?


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## kingslug (Jan 12, 2021)

Well..depends on where you are..The double d's at some places are far more difficult than a single D. You would not want to jump into something like upper Starr or Goat after doing something like Hayride. Even Hunter has a big difference from the easy blacks to something like Lower k or Annapurna


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## njred (Jan 12, 2021)

Howitzer said:


> Might as well do away with the 'Double Black' Diamond rating while they're at it. Novice, intermediate and expert covers the spectrum. I never understood the need for double diamonds in the first place outside of marketing. It seems to work fine at other ski areas that keep it simple in this regard. Any update on those new and improved webcams?


I like this idea.. neither Alta nor Squaw has the double diamonds,.. and those ski places run just fine.


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just learned that the 'sugarbush historic village' was a thing. i have never seen it or been to it or any of the businesses that are allegedly in it. weird.



Not necessarily a lot of businesses and they've changed a bit over the years, but what little is there was always great. For a while you had one of the best NY-style pizza places around in SB village (Pizza Soul). I would easily take Pizza Soul over most of the pizzerias by me in NJ. Pizza Soul moved a year or so ago over to the plaza in Waitsfield by Mehurons (he didn't want to leave, but the tenant upstairs from him was constantly suing the landlord over stupid things like the smell of pizza and the "heat" from the pizza oven making the apt above it hot, etc. The landlord always won, but was just tired of fighting in court all the time).

Then there's Mutha Stuffers. They're a sandwich shop and make some good stuff (uses Boar's Head cold cuts and Dino, the owner is originally from Staten Island). Dino also has the bar over there called "The Rex". That part I've never been overly blown away by, but it was a good option for a quick burger close to my condo if I didn't want to drive down to town (particularly if weather was bad).

For a long time Mutha Stuffers and Pizza Soul were my lunch options to avoid eating in the lodges.

There's also Chez Henri which I believe is the oldest restaurant in the valley (been there over 50 years). It is a French bistro type of place and definitely on the pricey side. To me it isn't worth it, but others may disagree.

There's also a ski shop and a daycare center. Not sure what else is there this season. I heard there's another new take-out food place under Mutha Stuffer's but I know nothing about it.


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

njred said:


> I like this idea.. neither Alta nor Squaw has the double diamonds,.. and those ski places run just fine.


Double-Diamonds are fine and I can see them being useful. There's a definite difference between a trail like Cliffs vs FIS or Black Diamond at ME. And a big difference between trails like CR Run, Cotillion, and Middle Earth vs Liftline and Rumble on CR peak. I think the double-diamonds make sense to at least give some guidance to new people. I may not agree with each individual trail rating (i.e. Ripcord is really a questionable double unless it is a sheet of ice).


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## Powder Whore (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm kind of new here so I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in so much. I feel like ripcord is for the  people who absolutely have  to ride HG and ski a "Double" so they can go home feeling like they got the goods.


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## kingslug (Jan 12, 2021)

Squaw's old trail map didn't even rate runs..just the lift. 
And if you want to run natural trails you can find skis made for them..hardened thick edges and bases. A little research needed but not all skis are made equal..


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 12, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I'm kind of new here so I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in so much. I feel like ripcord is for the  people who absolutely have  to ride HG and ski a "Double" so they can go home feeling like they got the goods.


100%.  Any given weekend you’re almost sure to see some person skidding down ripcord over-and-over-over again from the chair if you spend enough time lapping HG.

Keeps the traffic down on OG and Paradise tho so I ain’t complaining.


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## foofy (Jan 12, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> If Sugarbush patrol thinks a trail should be closed, then up goes the rope. And like I've said before... if the rope is up, it's up for a reason!


I do generally abide by the ropes, but there are definitely exceptions to that SB "it's up for a reason."

One powder day at ME a bunch of years ago, Lower FIS remained roped.  Saw a few poachers from the lift, I followed suit with my crew, and headed straight back up for another round.  Conditions were absolutely prime and the runout was covered.


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## Blurski (Jan 13, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> I think Hammond addressed it quite well in the video.  If you don't like the way the trail looks, don't take it!  Don't knock people who will.  It's their choice.  I used to look at those trails and be like "yeah, right" and move on.... way beyond my ability, but if someone wants to have at it, then go for it!  I believed Sugarbush had/has some of the best skiers around, and they didn't get that good by just skiing the groomers.  And that goes for the patrollers too... excellent skiers and riders!  If Sugarbush patrol thinks a trail should be closed, then up goes the rope.  And like I've said before... if the rope is up, it's up for a reason!


There is a pattern to patrol dropping ropes at Sugarbush, weekend before last was a example, almost no ropes were dropped on Saturday or Sunday, come Monday & Tuesday almost all came down.  I get it dropping the ropes with such thin cover on the weekend will be a nightmare for patrol.  Midweek rope drops, trails get skied and by the next weekend they look like hell, so the majority of the tourists will stay off them.


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## tumbler (Jan 13, 2021)

Many years ago Ripcord was rarely groomed and was wall to wall bumps.  The second pitch is also one of the steepest on the mountain although it is short.  Jester and OG were groomed every night.  That made Downspout even worse with a lot of traffic coming off OG.


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2021)

Exactly this.  I prefer it like this and it makes total sense.  I just wish they didn't blow the really hard pack snow on OG early season and then leave it.  It makes for some very hard and fast conditions until we get an large amount of snow.


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## 1dog (Jan 13, 2021)

few thoughts - agree with 'some of the best skiers/riders in the East'. Trails open mean it's doable, but take responsibility. It's a risk, just like getting over the Rox Gap in April in 2-WD and low height vehicle.
Recall the only bumped up days of Ripcord. But those 'sliders' who keep. going up and down and up and down - we were all there at one point - reason we improved. We didn't learn how to control speed or edge hard pack/ice on Jester.

There are a few of us who almost (I mean almost) prefer CR being hike to only.  But even that pod. is self-limiting.  Always wondered what % of those newer expert wanna-be's take CR Run as opposed to ME or Liftline/Rumble. I bet it's 60% ( or they take CR to lower LL to avoid headwall.)

Either way, snow making was. great this past weekend and its impossible to compare it to other years or teams. Weather, $$, management, employment, and crowds all factor in. Heard from employee there was 30% of normal holiday week crowd on the slopes. Between weather and Cold, that makes perfect sense to me.

Have never been in a longer than 5-8 min line except once on HG in 8 days.


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## mikec142 (Jan 13, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Exactly this.  I prefer it like this and it makes total sense.  I just wish they didn't blow the really hard pack snow on OG early season and then leave it.  It makes for some very hard and fast conditions until we get an large amount of snow.


What can be done to change this?  I skied at SB on 12/28-30 and OG was one of the best runs from an edgeable snow standpoint and there was  pretty solid amount of people on it.  I also skied at SB on 1/9-10 and OG looked pretty slick and there were very few (almost none) people on it.


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2021)

Wait for colder temps, deep groom it and then blow a thick layer of snow with less water content.  Up the air.  Or wait for a huge dump to be in the forecast and deep groom it the day before.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Many years ago Ripcord was rarely groomed and was wall to wall bumps.  The second pitch is also one of the steepest on the mountain although it is short.  Jester and OG were groomed every night.  That made Downspout even worse with a lot of traffic coming off OG.


I think thats exactly right.  Ripcord was designated double black when it was ungroomed and left to bump up.  IIRC, It wasn't until about 10 years ago that they started grooming it regularly.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Wait for colder temps, deep groom it and then blow a thick layer of snow with less water content.  Up the air.  Or wait for a huge dump to be in the forecast and deep groom it the day before.


They are blowing snow again, but I heard that they are running low on water in the pond.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I'm kind of new here so I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in so much. I feel like ripcord is for the  people who absolutely have  to ride HG and ski a "Double" so they can go home feeling like they got the goods.


chime away!  Where in NJ are u coming from?  Im originally from englewood.

About 10 years ago, we had a family come up for the day from their place at Okemo.  They insisted on skiing paradise.  The Mom, took off her skis on the top section and hiked back up.  Dad wasn't much better but eventually made it down, although the kids were psyched.


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2021)

Steins that is Howie!


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I think thats exactly right.  Ripcord was designated double black when it was ungroomed and left to bump up.  IIRC, It wasn't until about 10 years ago that they started grooming it regularly.


I like the switch in strategy on those two trails. OG seems to hold snow better so it can be a lot of fun bumped up. RC is fun to hit first thing in the morning on a fresh groom to just rip down.


HowieT2 said:


> chime away!  Where in NJ are u coming from?  Im originally from englewood.



Either I never knew that or I forgot...I've lived in Bergen county most of my life.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Not necessarily a lot of businesses and they've changed a bit over the years, but what little is there was always great. For a while you had one of the best NY-style pizza places around in SB village (Pizza Soul). I would easily take Pizza Soul over most of the pizzerias by me in NJ. Pizza Soul moved a year or so ago over to the plaza in Waitsfield by Mehurons (he didn't want to leave, but the tenant upstairs from him was constantly suing the landlord over stupid things like the smell of pizza and the "heat" from the pizza oven making the apt above it hot, etc. The landlord always won, but was just tired of fighting in court all the time).
> 
> Then there's Mutha Stuffers. They're a sandwich shop and make some good stuff (uses Boar's Head cold cuts and Dino, the owner is originally from Staten Island). Dino also has the bar over there called "The Rex". That part I've never been overly blown away by, but it was a good option for a quick burger close to my condo if I didn't want to drive down to town (particularly if weather was bad).
> 
> ...



thanks - i knew of chez henri but then realized i had never seen it. i will take a drive that way next time i am there. i assume you keep going straight where you would turn left to enter the main parking lot or right to enter the overflow lot at lincoln peak. i always just assumed condos/homes were down there, not businesses. maybe chez henri with the lady when the world returns to some sort of normal. next season.


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## flakeydog (Jan 13, 2021)

Couple of things here-

First, trail ratings are designed to show the relative difficulty of trails at a particular mountain.  Black means trail is the most difficult at _this mountain_, etc.  Double black was created 20-25 years ago to further differentiate those that fell in the black diamond category.  Think Cliffs vs Paradise at Sugarbush or Hayride vs Starr at Stowe.

Next, on thin cover- I am sure some that are new to Sugarbush are a bit surprised that the perfunctory "Thin Cover" sign actually means what it says.  Sugarbush is, and always has been, a skier's mountain and this policy reflects that.  I recall being at a certain mountain south of here that actually had large signs at the top of certain trails warning of "MOGULS".  The horror!  and yes, their Double Black trails are not quite on par with those at Sugarbush (see above).  I did feel a little bad for those skiing Inverness on Sunday and had to navigate the waterbars on the bottom of Semi-Tough.  I think that caught a lot of people off guard.

My thoughts on the Village:
- Chez Henri is fantastic.  It's not a bar and grill so if that is what you are looking for, go elsewhere.  Worth the $ for fondue and a true dining experience.
- Mutha Stuffas has the best italian sandwich around.  Dino is awesome and has really put a lot of energy into the Village space over the years- no easy task.
- the new place downstairs (sorry I forgot the name).  Combo store and takeout, very nicely set up.  Got some really good grilled burrito/wrap items there.  It also looks like they are well set up for grab-and-go breakfast sandwiches. We were there late afternoon so we did not see those.  Go here and support!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 13, 2021)

lol. the bottom of semi tough was not fun saturday, that's for sure. 

honestly i am kinda shocked the village businesses can sustain themselves. I've been skiing sugarbush for years, always stay in off mountain lodging as far as montpelier or Waterbury, and i just learned these places exist. i imagine most visitors are totally ignorant of their existence.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks - i knew of chez henri but then realized i had never seen it. i will take a drive that way next time i am there. i assume you keep going straight where you would turn left to enter the main parking lot or right to enter the overflow lot at lincoln peak. i always just assumed condos/homes were down there, not businesses. maybe chez henri with the lady when the world returns to some sort of normal. next season.



Yes, literally the next driveway on the left after passing the main parking lot entrance. You can also take the "Out to Lunch" trail to ski to the covered bridge leading to SB village.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. the bottom of semi tough was not fun saturday, that's for sure.
> 
> honestly i am kinda shocked the village businesses can sustain themselves. I've been skiing sugarbush for years, always stay in off mountain lodging as far as montpelier or Waterbury, and i just learned these places exist. i imagine most visitors are totally ignorant of their existence.


The one bar/restaurant (the location where Mutha Stuffers and The Reks is currently) has changed hands a bunch of times over the years. (Mutha Stuffers itself has been in the village for a while now, but has just moved locations a few times within the village).

Mutha Stuffers gets a consistent flow of people and has a pretty loyal following. Chez Henri is pretty well known as well. VT ski and ride magazine had an article on legaendary Vermont ski bars a few years back where it was featured.









						4 Of Vermont's Legendary Ski Bars — VT SKI + RIDE Magazine
					

What makes a ski bar a legend? It’s the abundance of good times, year after year, and the people who bring those good times into your life.




					vtskiandride.com


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## shadyjay (Jan 13, 2021)

I lived in the village for many years... first in Trailside towards the top, working my way down to North Lynx, and finally Village Gate (the hotel-looking one at the stop sign by the SHaRC).  Especially from my years at VG, I'd frequent the village often, as it was easy to grab a bite at the Reks or something from Mutha Stuffers.  Its definitely a case of "you have to know its there", otherwise you wouldn't know what's in there.  Even on a Friday or Saturday night mid-winter, the Village would be dead in recent years.  Not sure why.  The Phoenix used to be quite the place some 15+ years ago.  Pine Tree was good for its first year or so, but fell off.  Was it changing demographics?  Less of a party scene?  Families wanting to stay in?  Or is it a case of just too far off the path (from the mtn) to be totally integrated and thus lacks the foot traffic?  I'm guessing its that.  Perhaps if it had been built where the Rice/Gadd Brook are, that would put it a little closer to the action.  In reality, the whole design of the area left much to be desired, with the Village chair in the pit all those years and the large expanse of vacant land between it and the Village.  

Also the Village was IIRC a privately owned venture and never part of Sugarbush itself, despite its name.


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## WinS (Jan 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Double-Diamonds are fine and I can see them being useful. There's a definite difference between a trail like Cliffs vs FIS or Black Diamond at ME. And a big difference between trails like CR Run, Cotillion, and Middle Earth vs Liftline and Rumble on CR peak. I think the double-diamonds make sense to at least give some guidance to new people. I may not agree with each individual trail rating (i.e. Ripcord is really a questionable double unless it is a sheet of ice).


A few thoughts on this topic. There are no definite industry standard about what constitutes a green, blue, black or double black, so each resort determines the trail classifications.  There is no question that some VT resorts have blacks that are rated blue here at Sugarbush and that can be a surprise. What is a double black? Once again these is no firm standard, but think of it as a “do not fall” meaning the slope could cause a long slide even with Moguls but even more possible if groomed. Stein’s and FIS fit as so portions of a trail like Ripcord.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. the bottom of semi tough was not fun saturday, that's for sure.
> 
> honestly i am kinda shocked the village businesses can sustain themselves. I've been skiing sugarbush for years, always stay in off mountain lodging as far as montpelier or Waterbury, and i just learned these places exist. i imagine most visitors are totally ignorant of their existence.


I've always made it a point to patronize mutha stuffas and pizza soul, even though they are out of my way.  Dino is a great guy as is the guy from pizza soul, whose name escapes me.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. the bottom of semi tough was not fun saturday, that's for sure.
> 
> honestly i am kinda shocked the village businesses can sustain themselves. I've been skiing sugarbush for years, always stay in off mountain lodging as far as montpelier or Waterbury, and i just learned these places exist. i imagine most visitors are totally ignorant of their existence.


you also have to understand that prior to 2005 or so when the gatehouse/claybrook was built, there wasn't much of a base area at LP and sugarbush village was the only game in town.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I've always made it a point to patronize mutha stuffas and pizza soul, even though they are out of my way.  Dino is a great guy as is the guy from pizza soul, whose name escapes me.



Jason is the owner of Pizza Soul. Agree that both him and Dino are great guys.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> you also have to understand that prior to 2005 or so when the gatehouse/claybrook was built, there wasn't much of a base area at LP and sugarbush village was the only game in town.



yea that is before my time. i didn't start skiing sugarbush until i graduated college in 2007. my very casual skier family were killington and mount snow loyalists. rented same house near snow, and high ridge condos at killington, every mlk and presidents week. plus a few day trips a year to hunter with dad. 

after college and with my own car and a desire to ski a lot more, i started exploring and hunting deals.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea that is before my time. i didn't start skiing sugarbush until i graduated college in 2007. my very casual skier family were killington and mount snow loyalists. rented same house near snow, and high ridge condos at killington, every mlk and presidents week. plus a few day trips a year to hunter with dad.
> 
> after college and with my own car and a desire to ski a lot more, i started exploring and hunting deals.



I started skiing in HS (96/97), first trip to VT was 2001 (my dad took me and a few friends to Okemo for spring break in late March). 2002 we did another Okemo trip. 2003 and 2004 we moved up to K/Pico. Then after I graduated college I wanted to go further north. 2005 I took my brother to Sugarbush for a mid-week trip in January. Immediately fell in love. Just looked back at my old pics to see if I had any of the base area at the time. It looks so strange! Wish I had more looking at it from on the mountain, but these are the best I have.


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## tumbler (Jan 13, 2021)

The only thing I miss from the old base area is the clock tower.  Other than that is was pretty bad with trailers and portable buildings.  The old pub in the gatehouse was on the 2nd floor and did have windows looking out at spring fling


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## mikec142 (Jan 13, 2021)

WinS said:


> A few thoughts on this topic. There are no definite industry standard about what constitutes a green, blue, black or double black, so each resort determines the trail classifications.  There is no question that some VT resorts have blacks that are rated blue here at Sugarbush and that can be a surprise. What is a double black? Once again these is no firm standard, but think of it as a “do not fall” meaning the slope could cause a long slide even with Moguls but even more possible if groomed. Stein’s and FIS fit as so portions of a trail like Ripcord.



I'm all for a distinction between black and double black.  As others have posted, Rumble and Sunrise aren't exactly the same and they should be marked as such.

Rode Heaven's Gate on Saturday.  Saw two skiers of note.  First was a guy who was absolutely flying down Ripcord making beautiful GS turns.  A picture of power and grace.  Later in the day, I saw a different guy flying down Ripcord.  Couldn't believe how fast he was going.  Immediately thought about the first guy but also thought this guy seemed out of control.  He hit a tiny bump at the bottom of the second (steeper) pitch and launched into a full on yard sale complete with full football field face first slide.  There was a collective gasp from the 10-15 chairs that witnessed it.  Thankfully he got up and started marching back up the hill to retrieve his gear.


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## WinS (Jan 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> They are blowing snow again, but I heard that they are running low on water in the pond.


The way it works at LP is that water is withdrawn from the Mad River into the pond whenever the flow is above the February Mean Level which is somewhere around 44 cfs. The river is flowing a bit slow now because we have not have much rain or snow, but it will definitely get recharged this weekend. At ME the water source is from streams and the pond at the bottom of Inverness.


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## ducky (Jan 13, 2021)

Pizza Soul is now in the Village Square complex in Waitsfield, next to Mehurons and Mad Taco. It was a good move for them.

Smuggs has some Triple Blacks off Madona and they are very steep, narrow, and gnarly. Not saying they're worthy, or if there should be doubles or triples, but they do have them. Great woods there and you can return down Rte 108 much like you can at Stowe's Bench, Angel Food, or Hell Brook, only going the opposite direction, of course, Smuggs being on the other side of the Notch.

The trail rating discussion is a bit like the binding setting on a rental form; choices are I II III. While you can ski in higher dins than III by setting yourself, the shops can only go by the chart. III is considered expert as is (single) black diamond.





__





						Smugglers Notch Trail map
					

Smuggs Trail Map so you can check out our 3 Big Mountains!




					www.smuggs.com


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## Dickc (Jan 13, 2021)

ducky said:


> The trail rating discussion is a bit like the binding setting on a rental form; choices are I II III. While you can ski in higher dins than III by setting yourself, the shops can only go by the chart. III is considered expert as is (single) black diamond.


For some of you who have not hit 50 years of age yet, that type III setting is not a type III setting if OVER 50.  They will automatically knock it down one.  If you select III, they set it II.  If you select II, they set it to a I.  Same goes in retail shops that set bindings for customers.  Over 50 gets the downgrade.

When I last skied, I could stand with my feet about 24 inches apart and bend my knees forward, and turn my toes inward, standing still of course, and pop my toes right out of my bindings.  I ski hard (no moguls, really bad back), but I never had a release on the hill unless I fell and put enough stress on the binding to cause the release.  One ski shop employee I knew once told me that expert skiers should be able to ski in a type I binding and not have it come out for normal skiing.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 13, 2021)

Dickc said:


> For some of you who have not hit 50 years of age yet, that type III setting is not a type III setting if OVER 50.  They will automatically knock it down one.  If you select III, they set it II.  If you select II, they set it to a I.  Same goes in retail shops that set bindings for customers.  Over 50 gets the downgrade.
> 
> When I last skied, I could stand with my feet about 24 inches apart and bend my knees forward, and turn my toes inward, standing still of course, and pop my toes right out of my bindings.  I ski hard (no moguls, really bad back), but I never had a release on the hill unless I fell and put enough stress on the binding to cause the release.  One ski shop employee I knew once told me that expert skiers should be able to ski in a type I binding and not have it come out for normal skiing.


That’s right.  I had this issue after turning 50.  Shop turned my din down to 6.5.  Almost lost a ski in deep powder out in bc Before cranking it back up to 8.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> chime away!  Where in NJ are u coming from?  Im originally from englewood.
> 
> About 10 years ago, we had a family come up for the day from their place at Okemo.  They insisted on skiing paradise.  The Mom, took off her skis on the top section and hiked back up.  Dad wasn't much better but eventually made it down, although the kids were psyched.


Im originally from Bellville. I live in Bradley Beach now. I have made a few other stops along the way in Monmouth County. Just out of curiosity where does it say that Im form Nj? I thought I left that stuff blank?


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## Powder Whore (Jan 13, 2021)

Is  anyone else really enjoying having the small park setup under GMX? I love watching the new schoolers  ski. Its not for me but I def respect it. Its also cool seeing them absolutely shredding side hits around the mountain.


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## cdskier (Jan 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Im originally from Bellville. I live in Bradley Beach now. I have made a few other stops along the way in Monmouth County. Just out of curiosity where does it say that Im form Nj? I thought I left that stuff blank?



Hah...I was wondering what prompted Howie to ask that as well... Thought I missed a post or something...


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> That’s right.  I had this issue after turning 50.  Shop turned my din down to 6.5.  Almost lost a ski in deep powder out in bc Before cranking it back up to 8.


I just put my age down as 42.


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## machski (Jan 14, 2021)

Most shop tickets I've seen these days have a III+ in very fine print you can circle as well.  I don't think they add much, maybe 0.5.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> In





cdskier said:


> Hah...I was wondering what prompted Howie to ask that as well... Thought I missed a post or something...


We can smell our own kind!


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Im originally from Bellville. I live in Bradley Beach now. I have made a few other stops along the way in Monmouth County. Just out of curiosity where does it say that Im form Nj? I thought I left that stuff blank?


I lived in Belleville for 6 days while I was in law school in Newark.  Long story.  I recalled you had mentioned earlier that you were from my home state.  That's a shlep from the shore to SB.  Bravo to you.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

machski said:


> Most shop tickets I've seen these days have a III+ in very fine print you can circle as well.  I don't think they add much, maybe 0.5.


I think adding the plus pushed my Din from 6.5 to 8.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2021)

you just tell the shop exactly what value to set the din. its not that complicated.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Hah...I was wondering what prompted Howie to ask that as well... Thought I missed a post or something...


I'm always on the lookout for NJ brothers who have the moral fortitude to drive past many lesser mountains to ski at SB


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## 1dog (Jan 14, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The only thing I miss from the old base area is the clock tower.  Other than that is was pretty bad with trailers and portable buildings.  The old pub in the gatehouse was on the 2nd floor and did have windows looking out at spring fling


Miss clock tower as well - and the much better vibe of the Castlerock Pub upstairs with windows towards Spring Fling and that great deck on same side.  

Still believe the Mushroom would be one of the greatest locations for a 'windowed bar' but the nostalgia on Wunderbar - which is very good, has to be enough for us old-timers. It still smells 1960's . . . .  and well, so do I.

Can't argue with progress. Overall, its far better than it was as a base area. 

Sill holding out for 8"-12" this weekend but wind ( and maybe immature snow) may hamper that prediction.


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## mikec142 (Jan 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm always on the lookout for NJ brothers who have the moral fortitude to drive past many lesser mountains to ski at SB


Union county here.  Make the drive regularly.  5.5 hours each way not including a quick stop in Saratoga for coffee and a snack.


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## FBGM (Jan 14, 2021)

These guys still have their director of mountain operations position open. Guess they can’t find anyone? Odd to be this far into a season with that position not filled.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm always on the lookout for NJ brothers who have the moral fortitude to drive past many lesser mountains to ski at SB


I still try to ski some "lesser" resorts every now & again.  Platty in NY was  typically my day trip spot. I enjoy Magic Mtn also and Gore is a blast after a good snow.
The thing that hooked me about SB was the access to the trees. I was kind of blown away at first, somewhat by the gnarly lines but more so by  how accessible these lines are  to everyone.


----------



## WinS (Jan 14, 2021)

FBGM said:


> These guys still have their director of mountain operations position open. Guess they can’t find anyone? Odd to be this far into a season with that position not filled.


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2021)

FBGM said:


> These guys still have their director of mountain operations position open. Guess they can’t find anyone? Odd to be this far into a season with that position not filled.


John Hammond‘s job of VP Mountain Operations and Recreational Services was filled awhile ago by Patrick Konvicka from Wildcat.


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## FBGM (Jan 14, 2021)

WinS said:


> John Hammond‘s job of VP Mountain Operations and Recreational Services was filled awhile ago by Patrick Konvicka from Wildcat.


Huh, weird they still have the ad up


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## mikec142 (Jan 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I still try to ski some "lesser" resorts every now & again.  Platty in NY was  typically my day trip spot. I enjoy Magic Mtn also and Gore is a blast after a good snow.
> The thing that hooked me about SB was the access to the trees. I was kind of blown away at first, somewhat by the gnarly lines but more so by  how accessible these lines are  to everyone.


Over the years, I'd narrowed my spots down.  A lot of that had to do with my love for Sugarbush in general and their value oriented quad packs.  For me a day trip is to Windham.  I long ago stopped making the quicker day trips to Blue or Camelback.  I also have a special place in my heart for Gore as it's where I really learned to ski and my closest friend has a place up there.  I will say that Gore's terrain beats anything in southern VT and stacks up really well against most places on the east coast.

These days, even though I have the Ikon Pass, I still have a love for SB and Gore and I'm kind of a creature of habit.  My feeling is that if I'm going to get in the car and make the 4 hour drive to Stratton (on the Ikon Pass), I might as well drive the extra 90 minutes and to get to much better terrain and a place I love.  Plus, if I go to Stratton, I don't get to stop in Saratoga for Uncommon Grounds coffee.

Obviously this season is unique due to Covid.  The Ikon Pass has really come in handy for me as I tend to do things last minute so buying day tix would have been impossible for me.  I think the thing that I will likely miss the most this year will be not getting my typical weekend or two at Gore, not getting the day or two at MRG and Stowe.  There's always next year.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2021)

"I will say that Gore's terrain beats anything in southern VT"

except for magic.


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## mikec142 (Jan 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> "I will say that Gore's terrain beats anything in southern VT"
> 
> except for magic.


I've never had the pleasure of skiing Magic so I'll have to take your word for it.


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## keyser soze (Jan 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I still try to ski some "lesser" resorts every now & again.  Platty in NY was  typically my day trip spot. I enjoy Magic Mtn also and Gore is a blast after a good snow.
> The thing that hooked me about SB was the access to the trees. I was kind of blown away at first, somewhat by the gnarly lines but more so by  how accessible these lines are  to everyone.


I've skied SB many times, but am not familiar with the tree skiing as I am usually following people around and they don't know the mountain well.  I belong to a ski club that has a lodge on 100 about midway between SB and Killington.  I got the full ikon this year in hopes of getting plenty of days at SB since it is unlimited.

A day trip for me used to be Hunter on a Sunday as I could get many laps in and bail by 2 if you get there at opening.  That being said I have not been there in a few years.  I worked in Newark for several years at the now closed tannery on Broadway if you know where that is.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2021)

ive passed those ski club houses on 100 near Granville Gulf many times. that is a pretty desolate area. no gas, restaurants, food shops. no cell service. when i do my crazy man night drives i sometimes worry thru that stretch, especially if there is weather.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

keyser soze said:


> I've skied SB many times, but am not familiar with the tree skiing as I am usually following people around and they don't know the mountain well.  I belong to a ski club that has a lodge on 100 about midway between SB and Killington.  I got the full ikon this year in hopes of getting plenty of days at SB since it is unlimited.
> 
> A day trip for me used to be Hunter on a Sunday as I could get many laps in and bail by 2 if you get there at opening.  That being said I have not been there in a few years.  I worked in Newark for several years at the now closed tannery on Broadway if you know where that is.


short hills ski club?  That house looks nice.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I still try to ski some "lesser" resorts every now & again.  Platty in NY was  typically my day trip spot. I enjoy Magic Mtn also and Gore is a blast after a good snow.
> The thing that hooked me about SB was the access to the trees. I was kind of blown away at first, somewhat by the gnarly lines but more so by  how accessible these lines are  to everyone.


The vibe at Platty reminds me of Mt. Ellen.  My buddy lives near windham so I've hit platty for powder days a bunch the last few years.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> "I will say that Gore's terrain beats anything in southern VT"
> 
> except for magic.


I've only been to Gore a few times and unfortunately, each time the conditions have been abysmal.


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## kingslug (Jan 14, 2021)

So far Gore has been great. Even though I have an epic I'm still driving the extra 1.5 hours and buying tickets there. 
Damn good chile too.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I've only been to Gore a few times and unfortunately, each time the conditions have been abysmal.



lots of on map tree skiing. some of it quite long in terms of vertical drop (burnt ridge). weird layout - unkind to snowboards. old school vibes. gore is good. would rather ski gore than stratton or okemo for sure. but not magic.


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## cdskier (Jan 14, 2021)

I really liked Gore the bunch of times I was there (this was before the expansion to Burnt Ridge as well). The town of North Creek doesn't have much to offer though and turned me off from considering it as a "home mountain". The MRV on the other hand is a great asset and compliment to the ski areas here.


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## skiur (Jan 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you just tell the shop exactly what value to set the din. its not that complicated.



Or just set it yourself, all it takes is a screwdriver.


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## mikec142 (Jan 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I really liked Gore the bunch of times I was there (this was before the expansion to Burnt Ridge as well). The town of North Creek doesn't have much to offer though and turned me off from considering it as a "home mountain". The MRV on the other hand is a great asset and compliment to the ski areas here.


I've mentioned this before.  Gore has excellent terrain.  There are several drawbacks, some of which have been solved.  

First was it's a state owned mountain and for many years the lodge and snow making ability reflected that.  That's been alleviated as NY has put in a ton of money to expand terrain, add equipment, redo parts of the lodge and add lifts.  There are still parts of the lodge that are what I would politely refer to as old school, but it's improved immensely over the years.

The second issue can't be resolved.  I can't explain why, but if the temperature at Sugarbush is 15 degrees, you can guarantee that Gore and Whiteface are several degrees colder.  For some reason, I feel like Gore doesn't get as much natural snow as areas in VT but I could be comparing that to the northern greens.  It's probably on par with the southern greens for snowfall.

The third issue is that Gore is truly in the middle of nowhere.  North Creek has virtually zero to offer and the lodging in the area is lame.  My best friend has a lake house about 25 minutes from the mountain so we spend all of our non-ski time at his place.  But if you don't have access to a private home, there ain't much going on.  Another friend bought a house up there too, but I haven't visited in the winter.

If I were buying a ski house, Gore would not be the first place I would choose.  Certainly would be hard to become part of the community as it doesn't feel like there is much of one.  The four hour drive is nice though.

My wife and I love Saratoga...lots to do, culture, food, college town, track, etc.  It's exactly an hour away from Gore with about half of that driving on the highway.  Wouldn't be a bad place to retire...


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## kingslug (Jan 14, 2021)

The few hotels, motels and Bb's are expensive. I stayed at one last week and it was 170.00 for a room that is 90 at Hunter. I have stayed at the Sunview motel in Hunter after skiing there then drive the 2 hours to Gore on Sunday. Cuts the cost in half. Or just day trip to Gore. Not taking any west or Europe trips saves a ton of money..to be spent right here..which is good for local businesses that desperately need it.


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## keyser soze (Jan 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> short hills ski club?  That house looks nice.


No, Central Jersey Ski Club.  It's very close to SHSC though in Rochester.  There are places nearby to eat, but we have a huge kitchen with 2 of each stoves, ovens, fridges, microwaves, dishwashers, etc.  There's a couple of good places nearby if you want to go out.  15 miles to Killington and about 25 to Sugarbush.  Nice setup and only $25/night.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 14, 2021)

Gore is def a hidden gem when it has snow. They simply don't get as much snow  as Vt. The glades are good & they open all of the lifelines when its deep. The mountain bike trails & bushwhacking type stuff is amazing .  Heads up, there is rock bands everywhere. I have followed tracks  into the woods there an unknowingly found substantial mandatory airs.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 15, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> The vibe at Platty reminds me of Mt. Ellen.  My buddy lives near windham so I've hit platty for powder days a bunch the last few years.


LAKE EFFECT!!   Family owned & operated, very high percentage of good skiers, personal accountability policy,
 & LAKE EFFECT.


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## WinS (Jan 15, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Huh, weird they still have the ad up


I believe that job is the one  Dave Ulbrich had. He has moved on to another job in the Valley. The mountain divisions ( patrol, lifts, snowmaking, etc) report directly to PK now. All of those positions are held by people who have been with Sugarbush for some time.


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## tumbler (Jan 15, 2021)

Since so many natural trails are open, when is slidebrook lift opening?


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## WWF-VT (Jan 15, 2021)

Don't confuse "open" with any depth of snow on natural trails.  Slidebrook lift needs significant snow depth before it will run.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 15, 2021)

I would assume (I’m not sure) if they do get 8 inches or so from this storm, Slide Brook _could _be a possibility. I remember technically it’s a foot and a half, but it’s really more about when the water bars are full and snowmobiles are able to traverse the liftline.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 15, 2021)

I think there might be a p-tex shortage in valley soon if this storm doesn't deliver! I stopped into 2 shops this week and both were suuuuper backed up with repairs and not doing overnight turnarounds.


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## Blurski (Jan 15, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I think there might be a p-tex shortage in valley soon if this storm doesn't deliver! I stopped into 2 shops this week and both were suuuuper backed up with repairs and not doing overnight turnarounds.


This wind forecast might slow down the ski damage via "Wind Hold"

The forecast for Mount Ellen, Vermont at 4,083 ft: Last Updated at 329 PM EST Fri Jan 15 2021 .TONIGHT...Summits in and out of clouds until midnight, then becoming obscured in clouds. Snow after midnight. Lows in the mid 20s. Southeast winds 30 to 40 mph, increasing to 40 to 50 mph with gusts up to 60 mph after midnight. .SATURDAY...Summits in and out of clouds in the morning, then becoming cloudy. Snow. Highs in the lower 30s. Southeast winds 50 to 55 mph with gusts up to 70 mph, diminishing to 30 to 45 mph with gusts up to 60 mph in the afternoon. .SATURDAY NIGHT...Cloudy. Snow until midnight, then snow showers after midnight. Lows in the mid 20s. West winds 15 to 30 mph, increasing to 30 to 35 mph after midnight. .SUNDAY...Cloudy. Snow showers likely. Highs in the mid 20s. West winds 35 to 40 mph.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 16, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I think there might be a p-tex shortage in valley soon if this storm doesn't deliver! I stopped into 2 shops this week and both were suuuuper backed up with repairs and not doing overnight turnarounds.


Hey this seemed odd to me. I dropped 1 pair off AO last Sat and was told to pick them up on Wends. Those skis actually needed a fair amount of work so ok.
 When I picked those skis up Wends morn I tried to drop another pair off for a quick tune. I was told they won't be read until sunday?


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## smac75 (Jan 16, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> The Phoenix used to be quite the place some 15+ years ago.


 Man, we had a couple of really fun nights at the Phoenix back in the day. It used to be quite the dance party! It felt so short-lived.


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## jaybird (Jan 16, 2021)

smac75 said:


> We moved to Saratoga Springs this past fall and it looks like we will be deferring our passes due to travel restrictions. I really want to check out Gore this season; some mid-week day while kids are in school maybe. Having been a passholder at SB forever it's a tough $500 pill to swallow taking the family to Gore (or anywhere for that matter!). But I should reason that we aren't paying for lodging in SB every weekend either. So there's that.  Still haven't had the pleasure of trying Uncommon Grounds yet! Every time we head down it's packed! Soon though!


When did this become a Saratoga thread .. just sayin'


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

Nice fireworks tonight. I've never actually watched them before (not often up on holiday weekends). Here's a few shots I took tonight...View attachment DSC_0957.jpg
View attachment DSC_0964.jpgView attachment DSC_0968a.jpgView attachment DSC_0969a.jpg


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 17, 2021)

With all this snow, how long before Castlerock and Slide Brook begin spinning?Assuming there are no warmups, pretty much every mountain in Vermont is set to have a good rest of January in terms of coverage.


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## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> With all this snow, how long before Castlerock and Slide Brook begin spinning?Assuming there are no warmups, pretty much every mountain in Vermont is set to have a good rest of January in terms of coverage.


Who are you asking? You just want guesses? 
No knowledge just a WAG - Feb 5 for slidebrook and Castlerock 1/29.


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## 1dog (Jan 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Nice fireworks tonight. I've never actually watched them before (not often up on holiday weekends). Here's a few shots I took tonight...View attachment 50056
> View attachment 50057View attachment 50058View attachment 50059


great shot


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2021)

I give Sugarbush a lot of credit with their COVID protocols. Lift lines are well setup, spaced, and managed. Mask compliance was quite high and staff in the lift lines gave gentle reminders to people that didn't have them on properly and no one argued or pushed back. I really don't even feel like it was that crowded. The lines at some points may have looked long, but they moved pretty fast (I stuck mainly to SB and HG with a couple VH thrown in, so can't comment on GH or anything at ME).

And conditions were fantastic this weekend. There's a lot of stuff I would have loved to have skied, but my legs could only take so much with this being my first days of the season.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I give Sugarbush a lot of credit with their COVID protocols. Lift lines are well setup, spaced, and managed. Mask compliance was quite high and staff in the lift lines gave gentle reminders to people that didn't have them on properly and no one argued or pushed back. I really don't even feel like it was that crowded. The lines at some points may have looked long, but they moved pretty fast (I stuck mainly to SB and HG with a couple VH thrown in, so can't comment on GH or anything at ME).
> 
> And conditions were fantastic this weekend. There's a lot of stuff I would have loved to have skied, but my legs could only take so much with this being my first days of the season.


It only got better today. The new snow on top is very dry.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> It only got better today. The new snow on top is very dry.



I considered today part of the weekend.


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## bumpcrasher (Jan 19, 2021)

Does anyone know if all of Inverness will remain closed to the public during the week?   I know GMVS always reserved Inverness (the trail) and 4 seasons ago also took Brambles.  Yet now, Walts and Semi-Tough have both been off-limits during the week and yesterday.  These trail closures are new this season yet any info is appreciated as Mt Ellen skis so much larger with access to that area.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I considered today part of the weekend.


Gotcha, Enjoy.



bumpcrasher said:


> Does anyone know if all of Inverness will remain closed to the public during the week?   I know GMVS always reserved Inverness (the trail) and 4 seasons ago also took Brambles.  Yet now, Walts and Semi-Tough have both been off-limits during the week and yesterday.  These trail closures are new this season yet any info is appreciated as Mt Ellen skis so much larger with access to that area.


Both Brambles & Inverness have been open.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Nice fireworks tonight. I've never actually watched them before (not often up on holiday weekends). Here's a few shots I took tonight...View attachment 50056
> View attachment 50057View attachment 50058View attachment 50059


Looks like you guys walked up to the Unihab parking lot above the Village Run Condos.  I only know that because I used to rent one of the units in the picture.  ;-)


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2021)

bumpcrasher said:


> Does anyone know if all of Inverness will remain closed to the public during the week?   I know GMVS always reserved Inverness (the trail) and 4 seasons ago also took Brambles.  Yet now, Walts and Semi-Tough have both been off-limits during the week and yesterday.  These trail closures are new this season yet any info is appreciated as Mt Ellen skis so much larger with access to that area.


They are closed again today.  Very annoying, they do not interfere with GMVS racing.  My hunch it is a patrol staffing issue.  Close those trails and patrol only needed if a GMVS racer gets injured.


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Looks like you guys walked up to the Unihab parking lot above the Village Run Condos.  I only know that because I used to rent one of the units in the picture.  ;-)



Isn't Unihab the complex above North Lynx? "Next door" to me is one of the Village Run phases I could have sworn. I was actually a little further back with my camera setup right before the little footbridge/walkway from the North Lynx property to that parking lot though.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 19, 2021)

I spoke with a " friend" who may have skied them both yesterday. He said there is still several water bars  that are not filled in. There was also hoses stretched across the runout for these trails.


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## CastlerockMRV (Jan 19, 2021)

Walt's was open this morning and you can always traverse into Semi Tough after that first left-hander.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Isn't Unihab the complex above North Lynx? "Next door" to me is one of the Village Run phases I could have sworn. I was actually a little further back with my camera setup right before the little footbridge/walkway from the North Lynx property to that parking lot though.


OK so that is the lower Village Run units and you are in one of the North Linx next to it.  My bad.  I am right around the corner from there also.  Nice pics.  I guess the fog rolled in shortly after.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> OK so that is the lower Village Run units and you are in one of the North Linx next to it.  My bad.  I am right around the corner from there also.  Nice pics.  I guess the fog rolled in shortly after.


Thanks. Couldn't see much of the last few minutes of the show other than some colored flashes for the most part. Wasn't sure if it was fog/clouds or smoke from the fireworks. I know the best fireworks shots are typically early on before the sky gets filled with too much smoke anyway.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2021)

Did you guys hear the fireworks on Village Run before the mountains fireworks?


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Did you guys hear the fireworks on Village Run before the mountains fireworks?



Yes, I did. That's actually what reminded me there were fireworks by the mountain that night and to get my camera ready (and double-check what time they were). I didn't know where those earlier ones were coming from though.


----------



## witchway (Jan 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I give Sugarbush a lot of credit with their COVID protocols. Lift lines are well setup, spaced, and managed. Mask compliance was quite high and staff in the lift lines gave gentle reminders to people that didn't have them on properly and no one argued or pushed back. I really don't even feel like it was that crowded. The lines at some points may have looked long, but they moved pretty fast (I stuck mainly to SB and HG with a couple VH thrown in, so can't comment on GH or anything at ME).
> 
> And conditions were fantastic this weekend. There's a lot of stuff I would have loved to have skied, but my legs could only take so much with this being my first days of the season.


I completely agree, additionally I think the behavior of the skiers deserves complements as well.  On Saturday when Bravo went down, and with Heavens Gate on wind hold the Valley House line stretched out and made a couple of S turns however everyone I saw acted respectfully and with consideration to everyone else.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 19, 2021)

Anyone else find it kinda strange Castlerock isn't spinning yet?  There's plenty of base....not like it'd get chewed up in three days if they ran the lift....


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Jan 19, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Anyone else find it kinda strange Castlerock isn't spinning yet?  There's plenty of base....not like it'd get chewed up in three days if they ran the lift....


I do too. Slide Brook is spinning this weekend but no word on Castlerock yet that I know of.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2021)

perhaps intentionally keeping it closed to avoid bad covid practices? theres hardly any physical area for the lift-line, and the chair only takes 2 people every 15-20 seconds or so. just seems hard to maintain the policy over there.


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

I really don't find it all that strange...natural trails just barely finished opening. And the terrain is accessible...so I'm really not overly concerned about the CR lift not running.


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## hub8 (Jan 19, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I do too. Slide Brook is spinning this weekend but no word on Castlerock yet that I know of.


Have always been impressed with your knowledge of lifts, but just want to point out that I was at the ME side Sunday and Monday.  Didn't see Slide Brook running on either day.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Not bad out there for my first weekend of the season... Here's a few photos I took... Nothing too crazy, but I had a blast out there. Felt so good being back on the mountain.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Jan 19, 2021)

hub8 said:


> Have always been impressed with your knowledge of lifts, but just want to point out that I was at the ME side Sunday and Monday.  Didn't see Slide Brook running on either day.


It didn’t run this past weekend, but is scheduled to run this weekend. Temps look a bit cold so it may be on “cold hold” at times.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 19, 2021)

I’m baffled that cr isn’t running.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> perhaps intentionally keeping it closed to avoid bad covid practices? theres hardly any physical area for the lift-line, and the chair only takes 2 people every 15-20 seconds or so. just seems hard to maintain the policy over there.


This is on point and probably the true reason.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 19, 2021)

JimG. said:


> This is on point and probably the true reason.


Why? Because it’s a double?  I don’t see it.


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## bumpcrasher (Jan 20, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I’m baffled that cr isn’t running.


Castlerock should be running!!   There is plenty of coverage everywhere!   On a positive note, SlideBrook was spinning (not loading) yesterday afternoon.


----------



## Powder Whore (Jan 20, 2021)

I don't understand the rush to open CR? What purpose does it serve to have hoards of skiers ski it down to the rocks only a few days after it finally got coverage?


----------



## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

They will probably open this weekend if we keep getting these little snow shots this week.  If you check the snow board cam it looks like 3 or 4 " this morning and there is snow showers in the forecast all week.  That is what I heard from a kind of reliable source.  Not one from the mountain.  Personally I like the hike policy because there are less people over there and the snow stays better.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Why? Because it’s a double?  I don’t see it.


It’s a double with massive space between chairs that only takes 2 people every 15-20 seconds or so, with a tiny physical area for the actual line to go, and no room to distance the line the way they’ve distanced every other line with empty lanes


----------



## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

I am sure they will do 2 lanes with a decent space in-between.  I think if they assign someone to manage the line and snake the line up the hill  after the flat is filled, it will manage the crowd down there.  I know if I was coming down lower downspout and saw the line coming up I would just go by.  But just the same I would like a little more snow over there before they open.  They are close I think.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Jan 20, 2021)

If they really wanted, they could have a person at the top of the entrance off of Lower Downspout opening and closing it based on the current line. That way there isn’t too much crowding at the base of the lift.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 20, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> If they really wanted, they could have a person at the top of the entrance off of Lower Downspout opening and closing it based on the current line. That way there isn’t too much crowding at the base of the lift.


Wouldn’t that cause more congestion @ your new “checkpoint”. Do u honestly think that people will ski on by even though the  lift spinning? I find that hard to believe.

The entire mountain is skiing fantastic. Don’t sweat the small stuff. Enjoy.


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

last year we would check the web cam and if the line was long we would do the hike anyway.  Good to stretch the legs and it was faster.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> last year we would check the web cam and if the line was long we would do the hike anyway.  Good to stretch the legs and it was faster.



kind of a great point that I've never even thought about. the hike and the lift with even a medium sized line is probably about the same time. that's going to influence future decision making. thanks.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> last year we would check the web cam and if the line was long we would do the hike anyway.  Good to stretch the legs and it was faster.



That thought has entered my mind numerous times but I've never followed through on it.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

You guys must be really fast skaters/hikers.  I fully confess to not being the fittest 50 year old on the hill, but there is no way that I'm hiking the LT to get to CR faster than waiting on the lift line.

As to those that want it open vs. those that don't mind the hike...I'm all for it opening (this weekend when I will be up there).  Under normal circumstances, at best, I might hike the ridge once.  On a good day I will spend the whole day lapping the CR pod via the lift.  Not exactly the same.


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

OK.  Not killing yourself it is about 20 minutes.  I have done it in 15.  So if you use the top of HG as a starting point and there is a line at Castlerock it is easily faster.  It is 7 minutes up the lift so the line would need to be less than 13 minutes to make it a wash and then there is the time to ski down to the lift from HG to consider.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> OK.  Not killing yourself it is about 20 minutes.  I have done it in 15.  So if you use the top of HG as a starting point and there is a line at Castlerock it is easily faster.  It is 7 minutes up the lift so the line would need to be less than 13 minutes to make it a wash and then there is the time to ski down to the lift from HG to consider.


Couple of thoughts...kind of a big difference if you start at the top of HG as opposed to say, the bottom of HG.  20 minutes sounds really, really fast to me.  I think the last time I did it, it was closer to 35 minutes (I was with my kids).


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

What I said before is that I would look at the cam when at the top of HG and see what the line looked like before heading down there.  If the line was long I would not go down, I would go over.  With the cams out this year I would just make the assumption that the lines are always long there.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Couple of thoughts...kind of a big difference if you start at the top of HG as opposed to say, the bottom of HG.  20 minutes sounds really, really fast to me.  I think the last time I did it, it was closer to 35 minutes (I was with my kids).



Takes me about 20-25ish (and I usually consider myself on the slower side as I stop a lot on the uphill parts).



mikec142 said:


> As to those that want it open vs. those that don't mind the hike...I'm all for it opening (this weekend when I will be up there).  Under normal circumstances, at best, I might hike the ridge once.  On a good day I will spend the whole day lapping the CR pod via the lift.  Not exactly the same.



The most I've ever done via the lift is maybe 3 runs in a row at CR. Conditions would have to be incredible or there would have to be no one there for me to lap it more than that with all the other terrain to ski. Hard for me to justify waiting in line at CR otherwise. As for hiking the ridge, I've done it twice in a day but never more than that. Again, usually too much other terrain I want to ski.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2021)

its not a strenuous hike. its actually a very chill enjoyable little walk. 

i once did that hike with like 101 fever. not in covid times. it was the first and only trip i took with my dad and my sister since we were little kids, and i was desperate to not cancel. i kept my sickness secret. they didn't get sick. we had a great time.


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## JimG. (Jan 20, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Why? Because it’s a double?  I don’t see it.


Because the boarding and liftline area is cramped. Tough to maintain distance with all the skiers who will want to ski there when the lift opens.

Plus most SB regulars seem to prefer the lift stays closed and it remains hiking only. Easy management decision IMO, no need for extra staff, keep the area uncrowded and please your core group of skiers. A no brainer.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Because the boarding and liftline area is cramped. Tough to maintain distance with all the skiers who will want to ski there when the lift opens.
> 
> Plus most SB regulars seem to prefer the lift stays closed and it remains hiking only. Easy management decision IMO, no need for extra staff, keep the area uncrowded and please your core group of skiers. A no brainer.


Personally I think if they were not planning to run if this year due to COVID, they would have announced that. Instead I'm of the mindset that it is a temporary decision that they simply don't believe it is "time" to run it yet.

Personally I'm a bit torn. On the one hand I'm a bit lazy and am more likely to ski it via the lift than the ridge hike. But on the other hand I also really like how peaceful it is over there when hiking is the only option.


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2021)

Like I said if it keeps snowing I bet we see it for this weekend.  I will go out on a limb and predict we see it Friday.  Its snowing now and there is more in the forcast.  Go look at the web cam.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 20, 2021)

Personally I think the lift should run. Castlerock is a legendary area of Sugarbush and is quite well known with eastern skiers. While some people enjoy when the lift is closed, to say it’s open on the trail report is a bit misleading. Not everyone wants/can hike across the Ridgeline, but they still want to experience Castlerock. I say if there’s enough snow, run the lift. People enjoy the area and a lot of Sugarbush skiers won’t bother skiing it until the lift is open. In my opinion, to truly be 100% open like they say they are, all trails have to be easily accessible to the average person. Plus, Castlerock is already a very low capacity lift which does not put many skiers per hour on the trails. Combine that with COVID capacity restrictions on chairs and even with the lift, it won’t be very crowded at all.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> What I said before is that I would look at the cam when at the top of HG and see what the line looked like before heading down there.  If the line was long I would not go down, I would go over.  With the cams out this year I would just make the assumption that the lines are always long there.


Sorry.  I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension a bit.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Like I said if it keeps snowing I bet we see it for this weekend.  I will go out on a limb and predict we see it Friday.  Its snowing now and there is more in the forcast.  Go look at the web cam.


I'm inclined to agree. Definitely had more snow today than we were supposed to get. It was sunny when I first woke up this morning...but that lasted about 30 minutes before clouds took over completely. It has been snowing on and off most of the day. Pretty decent squalls a couple times too.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Personally I think the lift should run. Castlerock is a legendary area of Sugarbush and is quite well known with eastern skiers. While some people enjoy when the lift is closed, to say it’s open on the trail report is a bit misleading. Not everyone wants/can hike across the Ridgeline, but they still want to experience Castlerock. I say if there’s enough snow, run the lift. People enjoy the area and a lot of Sugarbush skiers won’t bother skiing it until the lift is open. In my opinion, to truly be 100% open like they say they are, all trails have to be easily accessible to the average person. Plus, Castlerock is already a very low capacity lift which does not put many skiers per hour on the trails. Combine that with COVID capacity restrictions on chairs and even with the lift, it won’t be very crowded at all.


I agree with this 100%.  I'm not complaining that it's not open yet as there hasn't been enough snow.  But I'm hoping that it will be open this weekend.

Even with the lift running, it's incredibly peaceful up there.  I've been on Middle Earth many times on a prime day and been the only one there.

As a side note, I make it a point to take a picture looking what I assume is South from the same place each day that I'm up there.  I blew one of them up and had it framed...pretty cool.  Will try to post a picture.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 20, 2021)

that's bad ass!  nice work!


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

Two more from different days (obviously) on Castlerock.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> As a side note, I make it a point to take a picture looking what I assume is South from the same place each day that I'm up there.  I blew one of them up and had it framed...pretty cool.  Will try to post a picture.


I like the lighting in that shot...very interesting. Almost looks like it was taken at night.


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## NYDB (Jan 20, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Personally I think the lift should run. Castlerock is a legendary area of Sugarbush and is quite well known with eastern skiers. While some people enjoy when the lift is closed, to say it’s open on the trail report is a bit misleading. Not everyone wants/can hike across the Ridgeline, but they still want to experience Castlerock. I say if there’s enough snow, run the lift. People enjoy the area and a lot of Sugarbush skiers won’t bother skiing it until the lift is open. In my opinion, to truly be 100% open like they say they are, all trails have to be easily accessible to the average person. Plus, Castlerock is already a very low capacity lift which does not put many skiers per hour on the trails. Combine that with COVID capacity restrictions on chairs and even with the lift, it won’t be very crowded at all.


I am trying to imagine the person who is able to ski/ride the castlerock area but not able to do the 25 min hike.  Seems to be a very east coast viewpoint to say that if it is 'open' you have to have a lift running to it.  A lot of runs out west you have to hike to and they are considered open.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2021)

someone on this board was asking about the hike once some time ago and said he gets winded walking from the car to super bravo. jesus crips.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> You guys must be really fast skaters/hikers.  I fully confess to not being the fittest 50 year old on the hill, but there is no way that I'm hiking the LT to get to CR faster than waiting on the lift line.
> 
> As to those that want it open vs. those that don't mind the hike...I'm all for it opening (this weekend when I will be up there).  Under normal circumstances, at best, I might hike the ridge once.  On a good day I will spend the whole day lapping the CR pod via the lift.  Not exactly the same.


Mike in my opinion this is the problem. You and about 1000 other people will hot lap this pod  and it will be beat down to the rocks within a few hours. I mean no disrespect when I say that. 

Also for you guys who really need some lift serviced gnar why not ski Mrg for a day.  The entire place is like CR and it probably 10x the size.


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## bumpcrasher (Jan 20, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Personally I think the lift should run. Castlerock is a legendary area of Sugarbush and is quite well known with eastern skiers. While some people enjoy when the lift is closed, to say it’s open on the trail report is a bit misleading. Not everyone wants/can hike across the Ridgeline, but they still want to experience Castlerock. I say if there’s enough snow, run the lift. People enjoy the area and a lot of Sugarbush skiers won’t bother skiing it until the lift is open. In my opinion, to truly be 100% open like they say they are, all trails have to be easily accessible to the average person. Plus, Castlerock is already a very low capacity lift which does not put many skiers per hour on the trails. Combine that with COVID capacity restrictions on chairs and even with the lift, it won’t be very crowded at all.


Castlerock is lift accessible!!  There are plenty of places we can hike to earn our turns or get sidecountry (like Slidebrook).  
And right now, it is NOT a coverage issue.  At MRG, Chute, Paradise & Fall Line (similar terrain) had great coverage yesterday and are not "skied down to rocks".  Not sure why the "wait for the weekend"  as the chair would put as many people up the hill tomorrow as it would on a Saturday.  PLEASE OPEN!!


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## ss20 (Jan 20, 2021)

@WinS what was the thought process behind opening/closing Castlerock back in ye olden days when you ran the hill?  Snow depth is the natural answer...any other factors?


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I like the lighting in that shot...very interesting. Almost looks like it was taken at night.


Thanks.  It was definitely a special day.  If I recall correctly, the picture was taken later in the afternoon, I'm going to guess around 3pm.  FWIW, it was shot with an iPhone Xs.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Mike in my opinion this is the problem. You and about 1000 other people will hot lap this pod  and it will be beat down to the rocks within a few hours. I mean no disrespect when I say that.
> 
> Also for you guys who really need some lift serviced gnar why not ski Mrg for a day.  The entire place is like CR and it probably 10x the size.


No disrespect taken.  Your point is a valid one.  And it's one that I truly understand.  I love the wild and untamed feeling that Castlerock exudes.  It's why I love MRG too.  I wish that somehow my Ikon Pass would include a few days at MRG.  Even with the IP, I make it a point to ski MRG a few times each year (this year may be tough). 

The other side to that coin is that there is a lift there for a reason.  Slidebrook and the Church area are all there for hike to terrain.  Given the slow and widely spaced double lift, you can't really hot lap CR.  Even on a great day, I find there are so few people up there.  I'll add one of my favorite pictures to this post.  It was taken on a Saturday after winter storm Skylar dumped 60" earlier in the week.  The picture is near the top of Castlerock Run.  You can see how crowded it can get.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I am trying to imagine the person who is able to ski/ride the castlerock area but not able to do the 25 min hike.  Seems to be a very east coast viewpoint to say that if it is 'open' you have to have a lift running to it.  A lot of runs out west you have to hike to and they are considered open.


I'm able to hike it.  That's not the issue.  The issue is do I want to hike it.  Yeah sure, every once in a while it's fine.  But I have no interest in doing it multiple times per day.

My knowledge of western ski resorts is only so, so.  But how many of those hike to runs that you're talking about actually have lift service at all?


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Thanks.  It was definitely a special day.  If I recall correctly, the picture was taken later in the afternoon, I'm going to guess around 3pm.  FWIW, it was shot with an iPhone Xs.


Makes sense it was late afternoon with the direction of the light and shadows.

I have this over my fireplace here in VT. Took the photo years ago and had it printed on canvas. My dad custom made the frame as a Christmas present one year.


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## djd66 (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I agree with this 100%.  I'm not complaining that it's not open yet as there hasn't been enough snow.  But I'm hoping that it will be open this weekend.
> 
> Even with the lift running, it's incredibly peaceful up there.  I've been on Middle Earth many times on a prime day and been the only one there.
> 
> As a side note, I make it a point to take a picture looking what I assume is South from the same place each day that I'm up there.  I blew one of them up and had it framed...pretty cool.  Will try to post a picture.


That picture is awesome!  What settings did you use on the iPhone to get that effect?


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## djd66 (Jan 20, 2021)

Personally, I’ve done the hike plenty of times. It certainly is a treat to ski CR when there is no lift running.  My issue is the trail on the way over,.. I’ve done more damage to my skis is that trail than I have skiing CR. That final downhill before you get to CR can be a bitch. Would be nice if they widened it slightLy in a few spots - mainly for those days when it has a ton of traffic/ice and is extremely difficult to maneuver the trail.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 20, 2021)

bumpcrasher said:


> Castlerock is lift accessible!!  There are plenty of places we can hike to earn our turns or get sidecountry (like Slidebrook).
> And right now, it is NOT a coverage issue.  At MRG, Chute, Paradise & Fall Line (similar terrain) had great coverage yesterday and are not "skied down to rocks".  Not sure why the "wait for the weekend"  as the chair would put as many people up the hill tomorrow as it would on a Saturday.  PLEASE OPEN!!


Your comparing apples & oranges but ok.
 This is also kind of ironic seeing how Paradise @ Mrg involves quite a bit of side stepping & a traverse to access .


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## HowieT2 (Jan 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> OK.  Not killing yourself it is about 20 minutes.  I have done it in 15.  So if you use the top of HG as a starting point and there is a line at Castlerock it is easily faster.  It is 7 minutes up the lift so the line would need to be less than 13 minutes to make it a wash and then there is the time to ski down to the lift from HG to consider.


Exactly.  It’s no longer than 20 minutes taking it easy.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 20, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Because the boarding and liftline area is cramped. Tough to maintain distance with all the skiers who will want to ski there when the lift opens.
> 
> Plus most SB regulars seem to prefer the lift stays closed and it remains hiking only. Easy management decision IMO, no need for extra staff, keep the area uncrowded and please your core group of skiers. A no brainer.


theres enough room to socially distance a double lift line.  I agree it’s not ideal, but no reason not to use the lift.  Maybe they’ll have to regulate traffic at the top of the run in if the line gets too long.
If they want to save cr for the weekend, I’m personally cool with that, but theres enough snow.  Frankly, tomorrow morning being frigid, is the perfect time to hike.

started the day with 4-6”.  Dumped from about 10:30 to noon and then again around 3.  I don’t know what they’re reporting, but I’d guess there was a total of 8-10” of pure blower pow.  Needless to say, fantastic ski day.  Lews line was the best I’ve ever seen it.  Paradise woods not to shabby either.  Racers edge bumped up and in need of a groom.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 20, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm able to hike it.  That's not the issue.  The issue is do I want to hike it.  Yeah sure, every once in a while it's fine.  But I have no interest in doing it multiple times per day.
> 
> My knowledge of western ski resorts is only so, so.  But how many of those hike to runs that you're talking about actually have lift service at all?


Having at boots that are light and have a walk mode does make a significant difference.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Makes sense it was late afternoon with the direction of the light and shadows.
> 
> I have this over my fireplace here in VT. Took the photo years ago and had it printed on canvas. My dad custom made the frame as a Christmas present one year.View attachment 50131


Love it!


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2021)

djd66 said:


> That picture is awesome!  What settings did you use on the iPhone to get that effect?


Thanks!  I took it using the amazing app Camera+2 (it's like $5) and then used one of the preset effects (don't recall which one, but there is a scenery effect that I like a lot)

To me, the most amazing part of it, is that the phone takes a picture with enough data that it can be enlarged (I think the pic on my wall is 30x22.5) without losing quality.


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2021)

Mike,  That's a great image.  We have accumulated a ton of images over the years and I think you motivated me to pick a couple get them printed.  Are you up in the village like CDskier and I?  Looks like it.


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## flakeydog (Jan 21, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Personally, I’ve done the hike plenty of times. It certainly is a treat to ski CR when there is no lift running.  My issue is the trail on the way over,.. I’ve done more damage to my skis is that trail than I have skiing CR. That final downhill before you get to CR can be a bitch. Would be nice if they widened it slightLy in a few spots - mainly for those days when it has a ton of traffic/ice and is extremely difficult to maneuver the trail.


Not to nit-pick but that "trail" is the Long Trail.  Probably the only thing up on the mountain seen as more sacred than Castlerock itself.  Don't F with it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 21, 2021)

Yeah they aren't doing anything to the Long Trail...


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2021)

I don't think you can touch it without a huge process that involves the state and the Federal government.  It is National Forest.


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## 1dog (Jan 21, 2021)

and really, no one wants to change anything. Now that snowmaking is not an issue ( we come to this place almost every season, don't we?) we gotta find something else to chat about. Hiked it last Sunday - that trail IS getting wider by the year - more  traffic the last 10 years than I bet the entire 50 years before then.

It's a classic either way - I've hiked MRG from the App Gap a few times and and skied it, a lot more work than CR 'walk'. Part of me likes the not open, but those quiet rides on CR chair are almost church-like. No noise from snow guns, excess people under lift line, and south-facing so sometimes only sun on the mountain. 

It looks like another classic weekend at da 'Bush. between Ikon and Covid, crowds have been halved or more. With SB appearing to be open it's gonna spread out even more, and cold single digits mean less people with no lodge-warming. 

-1 Sat night with 22-29 MPH winds. . . .  @ 3000'

Got cayenne pepper?


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Mike,  That's a great image.  We have accumulated a ton of images over the years and I think you motivated me to pick a couple get them printed.  Are you up in the village like CDskier and I?  Looks like it.


Thanks!  Gosh, I wish I had a place up at SB.  I have to improve my sales pitch to my wife.


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Having at boots that are light and have a walk mode does make a significant difference.


For sure.  I have Technica Cochise with the walk mode.  But they are a few years old.  They don't feel that light.  I'm probably due for a boot update next season.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 21, 2021)

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that Castlerock and Slide Brook will both make their debut this Saturday. Could very well be wrong, just a thought.


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## SkiTheEast (Jan 21, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that Castlerock and Slide Brook will both make their debut this Saturday. Could very well be wrong, just a thought.


I'm less optimistic on Slidebrook given the temperature and wind forecasts...


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> I'm less optimistic on Slidebrook given the temperature and wind forecasts...


Agreed.  Even if SB is running, I'm not sure that I'm eager to take it.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 21, 2021)

I’m pretty sure the guidance is that it won’t operate below 5 degrees and of course if it’s on wind hold. Forecasts for Saturday roughly predict a low of 3 and a high of 11. Winds aren’t predicted to be horrible either. Given that it stays above 5 degrees for most of the day and that winds aren’t too bad, it should be able to operate.


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2021)

ss20 said:


> @WinS what was the thought process behind opening/closing Castlerock back in ye olden days when you ran the hill?  Snow depth is the natural answer...any other factors?


Staffing is a challenge this reason for a couple of reason. Last year we had 120 J’1’s and nearly 50% were devoted to lifts. Covid eliminated that option. Fortunately a lot of college students have taken gap years or have extended vacation. Also COVID protocols require any one who had been in close contact with someone testing positive has to quarantine. If someone has the sniffles or a fever, they have to quarantine and get tested. I believe there will be adequate staffing to run both CR and SB this Saturday.  But, each day is different staffing can be impacted. The SB roads have been groomed out so access to the towers for the lift mechanics is good.

When snowmaking is done which should be soon, hopefully a number of the Snowmakers will move over to lifts as in the past. This will heLP because a number of the students will be returning to college at the end of January. They are still hiring if you know of anyone wanting work.


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2021)

Website says both CR and SB to run this Saturday!


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 21, 2021)

Good news on today’s snow report


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## WinS (Jan 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I don't think you can touch it without a huge process that involves the state and the Federal government.  It is National Forest.


That is correct. As was said, “don’t f***” with it“ or it could be shut down.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 21, 2021)

WinS said:


> They are still hiring if you know of anyone wanting work.


I can't help but notice they don't advertise the starting pay...


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## HowieT2 (Jan 21, 2021)

I took one for the team this morning and hiked over to castlerock.  ‘Nothing to see there.  Avoid it if you can.  There definitely isn’t untouched blower powder all over.


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## ss20 (Jan 21, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I took one for the team this morning and hiked over to castlerock.  ‘Nothing to see there.  Avoid it if you can.  There definitely isn’t untouched blower powder all over.



Totally agree...hiked it at 2:00 today...what a waste of time.  The skiing at SB just really sucks overall right now...

They've nickeled and dimed their way to at least another foot since the weekend.  2" fell today on top of 2" the night before and 4" the day before that.  If you do find some untouched it's getting stupid deep.  I passed through pockets up in Paradise woods that were easily 18"-24"+.  It's great now...just give us one more 1-2 footer and we'll be sitting REALLY pretty!


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## 1dog (Jan 22, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Totally agree...hiked it at 2:00 today...what a waste of time.  The skiing at SB just really sucks overall right now...
> 
> They've nickeled and dimed their way to at least another foot since the weekend.  2" fell today on top of 2" the night before and 4" the day before that.  If you do find some untouched it's getting stupid deep.  I passed through pockets up in Paradise woods that were easily 18"-24"+.  It's great now...just give us one more 1-2 footer and we'll be sitting REALLY pretty!


This reminds me of an interview with JD Rockefeller when he was the richest man on the face of the earth. . ' you own Standard Oil, ( listed all his major company holdings), sir, how much is enough? ' JD puts his thumb and forefinger together ' juuuuuust a little bit more. . '


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2021)

Looks like it's gonna be chilly this weekend!


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## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

10 degrees at Gore this Saturday..better than..9 degrees...


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## Powder Whore (Jan 22, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I took one for the team this morning and hiked over to castlerock.  ‘Nothing to see there.  Avoid it if you can.  There definitely isn’t untouched blower powder all over.


I got 2 laps in late on Thursday. WOW, it is dreamy over there.


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 10 degrees at Gore this Saturday..better than..9 degrees...


Weather Underground saying high of 3 on Saturday and 6 on Sunday.  Down from yesterday when it was looking like 10 and 11.

edited...and now a couple of hours later back up to 9 and 11.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 22, 2021)

Can someone explain how the snow report has zero snow in the last 24 hours.  unless I’m losing my mind it snowed yesterday during the day and last night covering the car multiple times.  I know it wasn’t much, but it definitely snowed.


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## 1dog (Jan 22, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Can someone explain how the snow report has zero snow in the last 24 hours.  unless I’m losing my mind it snowed yesterday during the day and last night covering the car multiple times.  I know it wasn’t much, but it definitely snowed.


Keeps crowds away-I like it-and your report of how crappy and uninteresting CR was.


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Can someone explain how the snow report has zero snow in the last 24 hours.  unless I’m losing my mind it snowed yesterday during the day and last night covering the car multiple times.  I know it wasn’t much, but it definitely snowed.


Yea...that seemed a little odd to me too. Although if that is intended to be reflecting how much new snow there was since the lifts closed yesterday, then about 0" is right at least for the base. There wasn't much after that point. I drove down to town to get some groceries and pickup some takeout from Peasant (left my condo at 4 and was back at 6). There was only a dusting on my truck this morning when I looked out the window. It was so little that the sun has since melted it.


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## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

You can't rely on any reports. I just go. Look at the last rain event..that turned into a 17 inch storm. How many people relied on that.


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I took one for the team this morning and hiked over to castlerock.  ‘Nothing to see there.  Avoid it if you can.  There definitely isn’t untouched blower powder all over.



Got out for some runs this afternoon after I finished working. Hiked over to CR to get a run in there before the lift turns tomorrow. Absolutely terrible! They definitely should hold off on running that lift for at least a few more weeks.  

And that hike always reminds me how badly out of shape I am (especially this year where I didn't do a whole lot for the last 9 months!)


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## HowieT2 (Jan 23, 2021)

For the record, the snow report which yesterday had zero in 24 hours, now has 3” in the past 24 and 5” in the past 48”.  So they found the 2” that wasn’t reported yesterday.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 23, 2021)

Wow, there's Bernie going up Heaven Gate(lol) but I didn't take him as a snowboarder.


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## shadyjay (Jan 23, 2021)

Haha... but that's not heaven's gate... Chairs are too wide and its a Doppelmayr (Heaven's Gate is a Poma).  Given the fact that the chair has leg rests and the chair spacing, I don't believe that's at Sugarbush.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 23, 2021)

A wonderful day, waxing now for COLD. 
get it while ya can


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## mikec142 (Jan 23, 2021)

Today was amazing!  Cold and windy AF though.  I didn't notice if Slidebrook was running (so cold) but Castlerock was great.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 23, 2021)

Snow conditions were good today, but the wind, extreme cold, lack of slide Brook and a bunch of other little stuff like icy goggles and skiing into a water bar and having to scrape the ice off the bottom of my skis kinda made it only a decent day for me. I had some good runs at Ellen, but Lincoln got crowded early and was extremely windy and cold by the time I got back. In line for HG the wind came whipping down downspout and knocked over all the gates in the corral. Even knocked over a couple little kids behind me. Around 3:15 ish all the lifts except Valley House and Village at Lincoln and Inverness and Sunshine at Ellen were on wind hold. Apparently tomorrow is gonna be bad with wind, but who knows.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Snow conditions were good today, but the wind, extreme cold, lack of slide Brook and a bunch of other little stuff like icy goggles and skiing into a water bar and having to scrape the ice off the bottom of my skis kinda made it only a decent day for me. I had some good runs at Ellen, but Lincoln got crowded early and was extremely windy and cold by the time I got back. In line for HG the wind came whipping down downspout and knocked over all the gates in the corral. Even knocked over a couple little kids behind me. Around 3:15 ish all the lifts except Valley House and Village at Lincoln and Inverness and Sunshine at Ellen were on wind hold. Apparently tomorrow is gonna be bad with wind, but who knows.


I was waiting for the bus to mt ellen on German flats around 11 when someone had major ice to scrape off the bottom of his skis.  Was that you?


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 24, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I was waiting for the bus to mt ellen on German flats around 11 when someone had major ice to scrape off the bottom of his skis.  Was that you?


Nope. I was on Lower FIS. They groomed the runout last night which helped a lot with filling in the water bars.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 24, 2021)

Good morning today. Started at Ellen because of all the lifts at Lincoln being on wind hold. Skiing was decent over there but the corduroy was very firm. After I got back to Lincoln I did two runs on Castlerock, both of which were amazing.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Nope. I was on Lower FIS. They groomed the runout last night which helped a lot with filling in the water bars.


 oh, yah...did lower fis Saturday and really enjoyed the mandatory air over the first water bar.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 25, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I was waiting for the bus to mt ellen on German flats around 11 when someone had major ice to scrape off the bottom of his skis.





HowieT2 said:


> oh, yah...did lower fis Saturday and really enjoyed the mandatory air over the first water bar.


Here’s lower fis at around 10 
Classic Vermont cycle  and week of pow !!!


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## Hawk (Jan 25, 2021)

This was posted elsewhere but I thought it appropriate to share it here.  Dean has been an inspiration to me in so many ways.  I miss seeing him around the place.  Some of you know him from his teachings with the Bush Pilots or from just skiing around.  I have had the pleasure of both skiing and mountain biking with him.  He was the one that stoked me and my wife up for go to Cham multiple time.  Anyway enjoy....

the blackcrows, episode 14 - Tony & Deano, ski bums forever


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## mikec142 (Jan 25, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Good morning today. Started at Ellen because of all the lifts at Lincoln being on wind hold. Skiing was decent over there but the corduroy was very firm. After I got back to Lincoln I did two runs on Castlerock, both of which were amazing.


On my drive over from Burlington I saw that the lower lifts at LP were on hold.  I figured by the time I got there everything would be spinning.  On the drive up the access road I noticed an unusual amount of cars heading down so I knew that the lifts weren't spinning still.  Pulled into a mostly empty lot at 8:45.  Figured I'd eat my breakfast sandwich and wait til 9am.  Pulled the ripcord and headed over to Mount Ellen and hopped on GMX.  Quick warm up on Joe's Cruiser (firm cord) and then over to Inverness.  I had such a blast the day before skiing Eden, I figured I'd check out Brambles woods and Semi-Tough woods.  By the time I got back down I noticed the line at Inverness was longer than before and realized that GMX was on hold.  Got on line at Inverness and checked the app.  Of course Bravo was open...debated hopping in the car and driving over in my ski boots.  But said screw it.  Tooled around in Semi-Tough woods for the rest of the morning.  Really spectacular in there.  Eden but steeper in certain areas.  And felt longer.  Never got back to LP.  but c'est la vie.  Had a great, but cold day.

As an FYI, yesterday, Castlerock Run was some of the most enjoyable east coast skiing I've ever experienced.  Oddly, to me, and this is all subjective, Middle Earth was not nearly as enjoyable.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> On my drive over from Burlington I saw that the lower lifts at LP were on hold.  I figured by the time I got there everything would be spinning.  On the drive up the access road I noticed an unusual amount of cars heading down so I knew that the lifts weren't spinning still.  Pulled into a mostly empty lot at 8:45.  Figured I'd eat my breakfast sandwich and wait til 9am.  Pulled the ripcord and headed over to Mount Ellen and hopped on GMX.  Quick warm up on Joe's Cruiser (firm cord) and then over to Inverness.  I had such a blast the day before skiing Eden, I figured I'd check out Brambles woods and Semi-Tough woods.  By the time I got back down I noticed the line at Inverness was longer than before and realized that GMX was on hold.  Got on line at Inverness and checked the app.  Of course Bravo was open...debated hopping in the car and driving over in my ski boots.  But said screw it.  Tooled around in Semi-Tough woods for the rest of the morning.  Really spectacular in there.  Eden but steeper in certain areas.  And felt longer.  Never got back to LP.  but c'est la vie.  Had a great, but cold day.
> 
> As an FYI, yesterday, Castlerock Run was some of the most enjoyable east coast skiing I've ever experienced.  Oddly, to me, and this is all subjective, Middle Earth was not nearly as enjoyable.


There is more than meets the eye at Ellen.....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

STREETSKIER said:


> Here’s lower fis at around 10
> Classic Vermont cycle  and week of pow !!!


Nice!


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> On my drive over from Burlington I saw that the lower lifts at LP were on hold.  I figured by the time I got there everything would be spinning.  On the drive up the access road I noticed an unusual amount of cars heading down so I knew that the lifts weren't spinning still.  Pulled into a mostly empty lot at 8:45.  Figured I'd eat my breakfast sandwich and wait til 9am.  Pulled the ripcord and headed over to Mount Ellen and hopped on GMX.  Quick warm up on Joe's Cruiser (firm cord) and then over to Inverness.  I had such a blast the day before skiing Eden, I figured I'd check out Brambles woods and Semi-Tough woods.  By the time I got back down I noticed the line at Inverness was longer than before and realized that GMX was on hold.  Got on line at Inverness and checked the app.  Of course Bravo was open...debated hopping in the car and driving over in my ski boots.  But said screw it.  Tooled around in Semi-Tough woods for the rest of the morning.  Really spectacular in there.  Eden but steeper in certain areas.  And felt longer.  Never got back to LP.  but c'est la vie.  Had a great, but cold day.
> 
> As an FYI, yesterday, Castlerock Run was some of the most enjoyable east coast skiing I've ever experienced.  Oddly, to me, and this is all subjective, Middle Earth was not nearly as enjoyable.



I must have just missed the update on things going on hold at LP in the morning before I left my condo and drove down to the parking lot. I ended up sitting outside of the GH lodge in the little courtyard area by Bravo for about an hour. SB came off hold right around 9. Did a couple runs off SB and then went up HG. I was having a terrible time with my glasses and goggles fogging/freezing up on Sunday morning so only actually skied 90 minutes or so before I called it a day. I would have loved to go up CR as there was no one there at first when the holds were lifted, but bumps when you can't see well are a bit problematic.

I skied ME on Saturday. I was a bit surprised at a few of the natural trails how they seemed to have less cover than the ones at LP (Hammerhead, Bravo). Not sure if it was the wind or just that they normally need more snow than some of the trails at LP to cover up all the rocks. ME seemed empty on Saturday. Other than a couple minute wait at GMX, all the other lifts were ski on (before the wind holds started). I thought about skiing Lower FIS, but was concerned the waterbars at the bottom could be "fun" so opted to skip them. Based on others reports here, I'm happy with my decision there (although I'm sure Lower FIS itself before the runout was probably fantastic).


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## WWF-VT (Jan 25, 2021)

I skied Mt Ellen on Saturday and Sunday and it was very quiet both days.  On Saturday, Graduation was pretty much untracked powder and it was different skiing Riemergasse without any park features. Exterminator/Lower Exterminator were a lot of fun..  I got out late in the morning on Sunday when the Sunny Q and Inverness were the only lift options.  Inverness is one of my favorite pods to ski at Mt Ellen -  Brambles, Semi-Tough and the woods were all great.  Walt's had been recently groomed and the water bars filled in.  FWIW - the new GMVS t-bar moves fasted than the Inverness lift.

cdskier - no matter how much snow we get there are almost always exposed rocks on the steep pitches of Bravo and Hammerhead.


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## WinS (Jan 25, 2021)

The new T-bar can run around 650 feet per minute and I think the ride time is 5.5 minutes versus nearly 12 minutes for the Inverness quad. It will likely run most of the time around 550 per minute I believe so the ride time is a bit longer but still a lot faster than the Quad. This is a big improvement for GMVS and these surface lifts are not vulnerable to the wind as was demonstrated last weekend.


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## mikec142 (Jan 25, 2021)

Based on cdskier's report I must have left the LP parking lot a minute or two before Bravo started spinning.  Part of me is bummed because I had such a good time at LP on Saturday, but I really enjoyed ME and as I've said before, I ski a lot more at LP than ME so it was good to have some different experiences.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> I skied Mt Ellen on Saturday and Sunday and it was very quiet both days.  On Saturday, Graduation was pretty much untracked powder and it was different skiing Riemergasse without any park features. Exterminator/Lower Exterminator were a lot of fun..  I got out late in the morning on Sunday when the Sunny Q and Inverness were the only lift options.  Inverness is one of my favorite pods to ski at Mt Ellen -  Brambles, Semi-Tough and the woods were all great.  Walt's had been recently groomed and the water bars filled in.  FWIW - the new GMVS t-bar moves fasted than the Inverness lift.
> 
> cdskier - no matter how much snow we get there are almost always exposed rocks on the steep pitches of Bravo and Hammerhead.



Walts was phenomenal on Saturday. Really amazing how different natural groomed snow skies vs man-made groomed snow. I noticed the same thing about how fast the new GMVS t-bar was moving when I rode the Inverness lift on Saturday.

And it wasn't just the steep pitches of Bravo and Hammerhead that had a decent amount of rocks poking through. I expect rocks on the top part of Hammerhead and the main headwall of Bravo all the time. I wasn't quite as used to seeing them elsewhere on those trails while I feel like at LP I was barely seeing/finding any. Those were just 2 examples...others seemed to have thinner cover than I expected as well. Could just be the timing and which trails I was hitting when... I guess it just surprised me considering the natural trails I skied at LP on Friday afternoon vs ME on Saturday morning.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 25, 2021)

WinS said:


> The new T-bar can run around 650 feet per minute and I think the ride time is 5.5 minutes versus nearly 12 minutes for the Inverness quad. It will likely run most of the time around 550 per minute I believe so the ride time is a bit longer but still a lot faster than the Quad. This is a big improvement for GMVS and these surface lifts are not vulnerable to the wind as was demonstrated last weekend.


If only the public could ride it... it would be great to get to do some laps over there without waiting 12 minutes while you see racer kids flying right by underneath you. Also, what’s the deal with the Inverness/Sunshine schedule. On the lift report it says that Sunshine is now closed midweek while Inverness runs midweek (reverse of years prior) but this week it seems as though Sunshine is running in place of Inverness. Was this a temporary thing before Sugar Run and soon Reimergasse were set up?


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## flakeydog (Jan 25, 2021)

I noticed after we got that first slug of wet snow that the very highest of elevations actually got dry snow and consequently lacked the base.  Black Diamond in particular was a bit sketchy because a lot of rocks were poking through the lighter snow while down below the snow we got was firmly pasted down.  I found similar on the very top of Bravo but it got better even down on the headwall.  We are still a bit light on the natural snow though, still a lot of waterbars out there showing more than we would like.  Not a big issue but usually they are somewhat covered by now.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> There is more than meets the eye at Ellen.....


I skied Ellen today. Its definitely out there if your willing to go find it.  Many of the stashes held up through the wknd. I'm assuming bc of weather & wind holds. I guess the sacrificial lamb for the weekend was Inverness, Its beat to heck over there.
Also the guns were BLAZING on Reimergasse. It's really impressive to see the amount of  "firepower" when ops cranks  it up.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 26, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I skied Ellen today. Its definitely out there if your willing to go find it.  Many of the stashes held up through the wknd. I'm assuming bc of weather & wind holds. I guess the sacrificial lamb for the weekend was Inverness, Its beat to heck over there.
> Also the guns were BLAZING on Reimergasse. It's really impressive to see the amount of  "firepower" when ops cranks  it up.


Picture taken Sunday just before the guns were turned on. I can assume that some whales are starting to form. They gotta build up a lot of snow on that trail for the jumps. I’m by no means a snowmaking expert, but I’d guess it would be at least 4-7 days of the guns running before they can shut them off and let the massive whales drain. I’m surprised they’re running sunshine midweek with active snowmaking under it and no large park. Certainly less people riding it this past weekend than on a typical weekend (due to Reimergasse not being set up)


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## Hawk (Jan 27, 2021)

The long range GFS Model has us coming into a very active pattern.  There are 4 storms shown.  Feb 1-2nd, 6-7th, 9th and maybe the 12th but that is way out there.  The first on seems to be trending south.  The second looks  ah Wet. :-( The 3rd looks big!  We will see.  This may define the rest of the winter.  Pray for snow.


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## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The long range GFS Model has us coming into a very active pattern.  There are 4 storms shown.  Feb 1-2nd, 6-7th, 9th and maybe the 12th but that is way out there.  The first on seems to be trending south.  The second looks  ah Wet. :-( The 3rd looks big!  We will see.  This may define the rest of the winter.  Pray for snow.


Well, nice little 4 inch refresh today that 2 days ago was suppose to produce at most flurries.  Heck, after it started in SoNH, channel 9 was changing their snowfall maps upward on this one.  Odd year, models haven't been all that good.  Beyond 72 hours I don't trust any of it this year.  Hope your second GFS hint trends the way of the first.  VT might be able to ride a NCP event, but NH and ME can't.


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## Hawk (Jan 27, 2021)

We see what shakes out.  I just hope it's a net gain.  Who knows right?  I am supposed to head your way for some Backcountry with my counterparts once conditions warrant.  I think you guys need one more good storm.  Lets just hope.


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## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> We see what shakes out.  I just hope it's a net gain.  Who knows right?  I am supposed to head your way for some Backcountry with my counterparts once conditions warrant.  I think you guys need one more good storm.  Lets just hope.


Would totally depend on "how good" for just 1 more.


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## Hawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Agreed.  It must be good to come over here and not have to deal with all the "Noise".  Those guys have ruined that place.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

In other Central Vermont news...Keurig laid off a bunch of Waterbury employees yesterday.  Anyone impacted or know anything about it?


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## tumbler (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> In other Central Vermont news...Keurig laid off a bunch of Waterbury employees yesterday.  Anyone impacted or know anything about it?


Business demand for their products is down with offices being empty?


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## WinS (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> In other Central Vermont news...Keurig laid off a bunch of Waterbury employees yesterday.  Anyone impacted or know anything about it?


I believe it was the store they had at the old Waterbury train station which has been closed since March. They are still hiring for their Essex plant.


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## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> In other Central Vermont news...Keurig laid off a bunch of Waterbury employees yesterday.  Anyone impacted or know anything about it?


Our company switched from their machines to Nesspresso's, so we certainly didn't help.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 27, 2021)

WinS said:


> I believe it was the stire they had at the old Waterbury train station which has been closed since March. They are still hiring for their Essex plant.


Yes, WCAX says it was at a cafe (I didn't even realize there was one), not the manufacturing plant.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

WinS said:


> I believe it was the stire they had at the old Waterbury train station which has been closed since March. They are still hiring for their Essex plant.


That's what WCAX reported but I know that the manufacturing facility had many higher-ups that were let go.....


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## WinS (Jan 28, 2021)

There has been discussion about the missing lift web cams. This is from this week’s Sugar Blog. The view for the web cams would have told a different story. This shows what lift lines really looked like a one of the busiest days this year.

http://links.email1.ascent360.org/e...hCMlpsZ0haRzlab0RCcVFlRms5NHZFdXNTYTZUTUU9S0/

if you have not seen these weekly blogs, John Bleh has been putting out really interesting weekly information.


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## Howitzer (Jan 29, 2021)

WinS said:


> There has been discussion about the missing lift web cams. This is from this week’s Sugar Blog. The view for the web cams would have told a different story. This shows what lift lines really looked like a one of the busiest days this year.
> 
> http://links.email1.ascent360.org/e...hCMlpsZ0haRzlab0RCcVFlRms5NHZFdXNTYTZUTUU9S0/
> 
> if you have not seen these weekly blogs, John Bleh has been putting out really interesting weekly information.


Wonderful insight and thanks for sharing. Turn on the webcams and let people be the judge. Other Alterra properties have them and they seem to be working fine. The counter to Bleh's 'angle in which you are viewing things' argument is that limited chair capacity due to C-19 makes the lift wait times comparable, if not longer. MRG even offers better publicly available webcams than Sugarbush. Who would have thought we would ever say that? Some people are fortunate enough to pick and choose when they ski, and the cams are simply another tool in the quiver. The more information, the better. Help your customers make informed decisions.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 29, 2021)

Howitzer said:


> Wonderful insight and thanks for sharing. Turn on the webcams and let people be the judge. Other Alterra properties have them and they seem to be working fine. The counter to Bleh's 'angle in which you are viewing things' argument is that limited chair capacity due to C-19 makes the lift wait times comparable, if not longer. MRG even offers better publicly available webcams than Sugarbush. Who would have thought we would ever say that? Some people are fortunate enough to pick and choose when they ski, and the cams are simply another tool in the quiver. The more information, the better. Help your customers make informed decisions.


Agreed, but then again there is Sarah...


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## tumbler (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm not really following why the webcams are so important.  They were a nice luxury but not a necessity by any means.  Leave them off, I don't need to be studying the corral at HG from my desk.  If you get there and the line is too long, move on to another lift.


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## kingslug (Jan 29, 2021)

People have become obsessed with lift lines. And posting pics of them everywhere. Pics of them actualy skiing..not so much.


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## keyser soze (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm all for posting web cams so people can decide if they want the hassle and waiting on a typical day.  That may keep some people away and reduced traffic is a good thing, both COVID spread-wise and for the people who do come out and get shorter lines and better conditions.


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## Hawk (Jan 29, 2021)

I see both sides.  My interest is definitely not for looking at lines before I go or from my desk.  I go no matter what.  It is more about checking the app before I move to a new pod like Castlerock for come back down to Gatehouse.  It's just convenient to know.   The other side is that there are way too many asshats that want to whip up fear and show the lines.  It can only end poorly for us skiers.  I guess I lean more to not giving these people ammo.


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## kingslug (Jan 29, 2021)

Some places webcam shows huge line at the bottom...I'm always at the top lifts. Which have none.


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## mikec142 (Jan 29, 2021)

Win,

Thanks as always for the insight.  Count me as firmly in the camp of Sugarbush is doing a great job keeping people safe and making me feel comfortable with my decision to ski there.  I was there on the day that those drone videos were shot and I never felt like the lines were unsafe and the waits were very reasonable for a Saturday after some fresh snow.  To those that are critical, all I can say is, try skiing somewhere else and compare the experiences.  I've detailed my exploits skiing at another mountain and how all covid safety protocols are out the window.

I would love to see SB add the webcams back.  On days that I'm stuck at my desk, I often have the SB webcam up on a separate screen to keep me entertained.

See ya soon!

Mike


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## cdskier (Jan 29, 2021)

The gunpowder on Stein's this afternoon was so silky smooth! And the mountain was completely empty this afternoon. Every lift was ski on. Very unusual for a Friday, but I guess the cold kept people away. No wind at all at LP this afternoon unless it was windy on HG. I took SB, GH, NL, and CR and barely even a breeze on any of them.

I also forgot just how flat the damn top of Village Run is. Now I remember why I don't use it that often to ski back to my condo...


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## WinS (Jan 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The gunpowder on Stein's this afternoon was so silky smooth! And the mountain was completely empty this afternoon. Every lift was ski on. Very unusual for a Friday, but I guess the cold kept people away. No wind at all at LP this afternoon unless it was windy on HG. I took SB, GH, NL, and CR and barely even a breeze on any of them.
> 
> I also forgot just how flat the damn top of Village Run is. Now I remember why I don't use it that often to ski back to my condo...


Here is an interesting statistic. Just looked at Mammoth website and they are showing 113” of new snow. An an amazing depth. Groomer Dan told me the other day that the geo sat on his groomer showed an average of 9.25th feet or 111”. That was before the new round of snowmaking. He said one whale at the bottom was 27’ deep before he plowed into it. No longer in charge but nice to still get some info to share. Looking forward to some great spring skiing on Stein‘s in addition to what is there now.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 30, 2021)

kingslug said:


> People have become obsessed with lift lines. And posting pics of them everywhere. Pics of them actualy skiing..not so much.


I can start posting pics Monday-Friday just to get under their skin. I ski right onto the chair damn near every run.


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## jaybird (Jan 30, 2021)

Yeah that Steinsnow is truly primo 
As was everything on CR this week .. hit some dolomite .. 1 time only.
As long as the snowstake cameras are operational, no complaints from here.
Gotta love Hotronics


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## cdskier (Jan 30, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I can start posting pics Monday-Friday just to get under their skin. I ski right onto the chair damn near every run.


You could do the same thing this morning at Lincoln! Too cold for a lot of people I guess? Had a feeling it would be somewhat uncrowded today when my condo parking lot didn't fill completely up last night.


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## kingslug (Jan 30, 2021)

Post em..drive em nuts...


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## SkiSarah (Jan 30, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Agreed, but then again there is Sarah...


As a local Sarah, who skis between 80-115 days/season, may I just suggest the “Karenization” of “Sarah” is, at best, tired by this point. Let’s move on.


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## Powder Whore (Jan 31, 2021)

SkiSarah said:


> As a local Sarah, who skis between 80-115 days/season, may I just suggest the “Karenization” of “Sarah” is, at best, tired by this point. Let’s move on.


That’s a lot of skiing. You have my respect.


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## 1dog (Feb 2, 2021)

PH is also single and available Sarah, I wouldn't be enamored by his favorable comments. . . .  he may be a PH, but he is very respectful of the female gender. . . .if I can say that anymore? Just don't follow him into the woods off  lower T* * * * * * * * . . that's where he stashes his, well, stash. A Karen told me this - think that's her leg in the pic.


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## SkiSarah (Feb 2, 2021)

1dog said:


> PH is also single and available Sarah, I wouldn't be enamored by his favorable comments. . . .  he may be a PH, but he is very respectful of the female gender. . . .if I can say that anymore? Just don't follow him into the woods off  lower T* * * * * * * * . . that's where he stashes his, well, stash. A Karen told me this - think that's her leg in the pic.


Hold up, is this some kind of dating site?  I thought we were here to complain about lift lines, etc. Enjoy the snow, everyone!


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 2, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Win,
> 
> Thanks as always for the insight.  Count me as firmly in the camp of Sugarbush is doing a great job keeping people safe and making me feel comfortable with my decision to ski there.  I was there on the day that those drone videos were shot and I never felt like the lines were unsafe and the waits were very reasonable for a Saturday after some fresh snow.  To those that are critical, all I can say is, try skiing somewhere else and compare the experiences.  I've detailed my exploits skiing at another mountain and how all covid safety protocols are out the window.
> 
> ...


I agree, they are doing a good job with the lines.  Mtn is in great shape.  The only criticism I would have, the dinner ordering system at Rumbles is difficult to use.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Feb 2, 2021)

Nice skiing this morning with ~4.5" of fluff on the ground. Check out all the drifting on the 24-hour loop for the summit cam. The goods are definitely in the woods! Hopefully we can pick up another 6 or so tonight.


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## Powder Whore (Feb 2, 2021)

1dog said:


> PH is also single and available Sarah, I wouldn't be enamored by his favorable comments. . . .  he may be a PH, but he is very respectful of the female gender. . . .if I can say that anymore? Just don't follow him into the woods off  lower T* * * * * * * * . . that's where he stashes his, well, stash. A Karen told me this - think that's her leg in the pic.


Wow, I"m Lmao. At least somebody knows where to look for me if I turn up missing ! My avatar pic is a "MAJOR AWARD". Btw skiing was fantastic today.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 3, 2021)

1dog said:


> PH is also single and available Sarah, I wouldn't be enamored by his favorable comments. . . .  he may be a PH, but he is very respectful of the female gender. . . .if I can say that anymore? Just don't follow him into the woods off  lower T* * * * * * * * . . that's where he stashes his, well, stash. A Karen told me this - think that's her leg in the pic.


Isn't it PW?


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## HowieT2 (Feb 3, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Wow, I"m Lmao. At least somebody knows where to look for me if I turn up missing ! My avatar pic is a "MAJOR AWARD". Btw skiing was fantastic today.


fantastic is right.  might be the best conditions I've ever experienced in slidebrook.  That being said, with HG down on windhold, we headed to castlerock first thing.  Mistake.  Top 1000' was completely wind scoured.  Did CR run and middle earth.  same story.  woods were good.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2021)

I was thinking that also by just let it fly.  Also funny seeing the Covid online pick up attempt.  Can't blame a guy for trying.  ;-)


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2021)

Stay out of Slidebrook Howie.  Way to dangerous for you.


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## 1dog (Feb 3, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> fantastic is right.  might be the best conditions I've ever experienced in slidebrook.  That being said, with HG down on windhold, we headed to castlerock first thing.  Mistake.  Top 1000' was completely wind scoured.  Did CR run and middle earth.  same story.  woods were good.


Exactly right! Apologize, I’m still using phonics. Or is that Pppfonics?

SB report is amazing- I hope this post doesn’t wreck it. Bus social distancing helps a lot.
As fo CR- that leaves only 637 ‘ of soft turn verts.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2021)

Evaluating Our Lift Lines From Above - SugarBlog
					

On ground level, lift lines can look like crowded areas with poor social distancing, but these aerial photos tell a different story.




					blog.sugarbush.com


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## keyser soze (Feb 6, 2021)

1dog said:


> Exactly right! Apologize, I’m still using phonics. Or is that Pppfonics?
> 
> SB report is amazing- I hope this post doesn’t wreck it. Bus social distancing helps a lot.
> As fo CR- that leaves only 637 ‘ of soft turn verts.


Nor sure if you're referencing the Brian Regan Hooked on Phonics skit, but it's good.


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## mikec142 (Feb 6, 2021)

Today was spectacular.  A bit windy, but really great snow.  A few inches fell Friday night which made for amazing turns all over the mountain.  Spent the day at Lincoln Peak.  One weird note...my first ride on Heaven's Gate (9:15ish) was weird.  It felt very herky jerky every time it ran past the lift poles.  Never felt that before.  I moved on to other areas, but when I came back around 12:30 it was fine.  FWIW, this was the most crowded I've seen it this season.  And I still never felt like it was a long wait (castlerock was long but noting out of the ordinary).

What a great run SB has been having!  Deservedly so after a frustrating start.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Today was spectacular.  A bit windy, but really great snow.  A few inches fell Friday night which made for amazing turns all over the mountain.  Spent the day at Lincoln Peak.  One weird note...my first ride on Heaven's Gate (9:15ish) was weird.  It felt very herky jerky every time it ran past the lift poles.  Never felt that before.  I moved on to other areas, but when I came back around 12:30 it was fine.  FWIW, this was the most crowded I've seen it this season.  And I still never felt like it was a long wait (castlerock was long but noting out of the ordinary).
> 
> What a great run SB has been having!  Deservedly so after a frustrating start.



I was at ME and it was fantastic all over the mountain. Wind wasn't too bad at ME. Although I must say I was amazed how thin/narrow it still is around some of the waterbars on the Lower FIS runout.

I'll concur on most crowded I've seen it this season so far. By late morning every lift at ME had a 5-10 minute line (GMX, NRX, Summit, and even Inverness). Cars were parked most of the way down the access road at ME when I left. I knew it was going to be busy today when on my way to ME this morning I had to wait about 2 minutes on the SB access road turning left onto German Flats until there was a break in the cars driving up to LP. I've never seen that many cars coming up the access road that early in the morning with the possible exception of a major powder day.


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## Cobbold (Feb 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I was at ME and it was fantastic all over the mountain. Wind wasn't too bad at ME. Although I must say I was amazed how thin/narrow it still is around some of the waterbars on the Lower FIS runout.
> 
> I'll concur on most crowded I've seen it this season so far. By late morning every lift at ME had a 5-10 minute line (GMX, NRX, Summit, and even Inverness). Cars were parked most of the way down the access road at ME when I left. I knew it was going to be busy today when on my way to ME this morning I had to wait about 2 minutes on the SB access road turning left onto German Flats until there was a break in the cars driving up to LP. I've never seen that many cars coming up the access road that early in the morning with the possible exception of a major powder day.


What ski area is me?


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What ski area is me?


Sugarbush North (Mt Ellen)


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 6, 2021)

Today was great, but crowded. Surprisingly Ellen had really long lines at GMX and North Ridge. North Ridge was running very slow too which didn’t help. The snow was amazing though and the patches of sun were nice. I really didn’t find the wind too bothersome either.


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 8, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> One weird note...my first ride on Heaven's Gate (9:15ish) was weird.  It felt very herky jerky every time it ran past the lift poles.  Never felt that before.  I moved on to other areas, but when I came back around 12:30 it was fine.


This happened to me a few weeks ago as well. Do you recall the chair number? We were on chair #67 I believe and when I went back up later in the day I noticed ops had tied some orange ribbon off the back of chair when we passed it. Guessing it had something to do with the grip being weird going thru the rollers on the towers but who knows?


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> This happened to me a few weeks ago as well. Do you recall the chair number? We were on chair #67 I believe and when I went back up later in the day I noticed ops had tied some orange ribbon off the back of chair when we passed it. Guessing it had something to do with the grip being weird going thru the rollers on the towers but who knows?


I didn't catch the chair number.  But that's an interesting thought.  I only felt it when the chair ran past the lift pole.


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## tumbler (Feb 8, 2021)

Sometimes the cable can be a bit bumpy where the splice was done and you feel the bumps when you go over the wheels


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

Sunday was another great day.  I got there a bit earlier than normal (wanted to get on the road and home earlier than normal) and had a couple runs up Bravo and HG before everything else opened.  I always find that Super Bowl Sunday tends to be a solid ski day.  The mountain clears out early because people either never showed, or they leave early to get home.  From 8-9am, SB and HG were maybe a 2-3 minute wait if that.  I only did one run on CR and was on line there before it even opened.  I was maybe the 15-20th chair.  VH was basically ski on while I was there.

Took some runs this weekend that I really enjoyed as I either normally don't get to do them cuz of conditions or for some other reason.  Started Sunday with GS turns on a groomed upper birdland.  I often find it icy, but yesterday it was skiing well.  Saturday, I did a late afternoon run on Murphy's (ungroomed on skiers right was really good) down to lower birdland (which I don't believe I've ever skied).  LB was oddly challenging with the double fall line.  Sunday I had a great run on Domino (the skier's right headwall is a sheet of ice, better to jump in on skier's left).  Took a run down the Wild Turkey/Big Birch Glades.  They weren't really tracked with the exception of a luge track.  I know this is blasphemy, but I get a bit concerned when there are few tracks in the woods as I don't know what's underneath.  Castlerock Run was great (especially the lower part that fewer people seem to ski).  Paradise was a ton of fun, but pretty thin up top.  On Sunday, I took the bailout back to Ripcord to preserve my legs.  Did Morningstar (I find it to be a hidden gem) from the top.  I usually slide in from Birch about a quarter of the way down.

Couple of runs that I've done many, many times that I've come to the conclusion that I don't love.  First was Stein's.  I guess it should be obvious when there aren't many skiers on it.  The snow is hard chalk that's tough to edge, but there's a lot of loose snow on top of that when you get about a third of the way down.  I'm also a bit down on Ripcord.  More often than not it's just icy  I like those smaller, low angle bumps on the lower part.  

SB is set up very nicely for the holiday weekend.  Hopefully some of these small snow events coming up over perform.  This coming weekend looks to be really cold.  Hope it warms up a bit.


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Sometimes the cable can be a bit bumpy where the splice was done and you feel the bumps when you go over the wheels


Yeah...I'm not sure what it was.  But it was odd enough that I elected to move to a different area for a while.  It was significant enough that when I raised the bar near the top, I held on t the back of the chair as we went past the last pole.


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

I think that I've mentioned this before.  I've never skied the Slidebrook area.   Although I've been skiing at Sugarbush regularly for about 10 years, maybe a bit more, there are a couple of reasons I've never done it.  Earlier on, my wife was skiing with my kids and me and she's more on the low intermediate side of things so I didn't want to bring her in there and I didn't want to leave her to ski alone.  These days she really doesn't ski much and my kids have gotten much, much better (better than me) so I'd love to jump into Slidebrook.  But I've always hesitated because I don't know my way around in there.  Also, due to kids schedules, I'm at SB alone a lot and thus didn't want to go in alone.  I've always meant to get an intstructor/guide, but an injury (and pandemic) cut the season short last year.  I've been trying to think of a way to do it this season, but I just don't see it.  I'm very hesitant to go it alone.  I'm also hesitant to get on the Mad Bus (covid precautions) to get back to the base.  Further, my wife would be happy to pick us up in the car, but I don't know how I feel about having a guide in the car with us (or how he or she feels about that prospect, covid wise) and as I mentioned, I'm hesitant to go it alone.  I really don't see a lot of good options for this season.

To be clear, I'm very very comfortable skiing in glades like Semi-Tough, Eden, Deeper Sleeper.  I can do steeper, tighter glades, I just take more time to do it and I'm linking fewer turns.

In previous seasons, I've struck up conversations on the lift with various other singles line skiers and been introduced to some pretty cool terrain.  Jumped into the woods on skier's right of Middle Earth down near the waterbar area.  The entrance is tiny and would have never ever found that on my own.  Just yet to get into SB.


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## Powder Whore (Feb 8, 2021)

ME was ridiculous today.  You didn’t have to look hard to find it.  Freshies everywhere between the trails & lots of sunshine.


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## Hawk (Feb 8, 2021)

Mike, I am sure you are capable to ski Slidebrook.  Unfortunately this year with only 16 seats on the large bus, makes it very hard to go down there.  I have heard people waiting 2 to 3 buses on the weekends.  Midweek might be better.  If you don't like the bus for covid reasons then skinning out is a great option.  I am sure you find someone to take you if you don't feel comfortable.


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Took a run down the Wild Turkey/Big Birch Glades.  They weren't really tracked with the exception of a luge track.  I know this is blasphemy, but I get a bit concerned when there are few tracks in the woods as I don't know what's underneath.



So much that I agree with in your post...but this stood out to me. Nice to see I'm not the only one that has that thought go through his head in the woods...


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 8, 2021)

the logistics of getting back to the base are more of an issue than the skiing itself. slide brook is not gnarly and all roads kinda just lead to the runout.


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 8, 2021)

If you can arrange a pick up, I wouldn't be too nervous about doing Slidebrook alone. The cut glades are very distinct and if you stick too them and don't go hunting for powder it's pretty hard to get lost. Honestly, if you ski trees alone on the resort there's not much to worry about. Slidebrook is low angle compared to most of the on-map trees at SB.

It takes me about 30 minutes from when I get off the chair at the top of North Lynx until I hit German Flats. My fiancee doesn't ski trees, so this season I've been calling her just before I drop in and she'll do a lap or 2 and then come get me before heading home for lunch or for the day. I tell her which door I'm skiing and if she shows up and I'm still not there she'll know something is up. Mountain Uber!


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## HowieT2 (Feb 8, 2021)

I haven’t had a problem getting the bus from slidebrook.  Maybe I’ve just been lucky.  Although, now that I think about it, ive only done on a Saturday once.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 8, 2021)

yea, i just personally wouldnt really want to get on a bus full of people this year, and i reckon there is probably quite the wait on a typical saturday. i will be at sugarbush from feb 28-march 9 and will probably do some mid week slide brook skiing.


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## kingslug (Feb 8, 2021)

If your not comfortable skiing trees alone..don't. 
I've never thought its a good idea..


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> If your not comfortable skiing trees alone..don't.
> I've never thought its a good idea..


I get it.  That said, I'm very comfortable skiing the in bounds trees by myself and do so at SB on a regular basis. 

However, there are three differences in my mind.  First is that while I may not be able to see the marked trail from where I am in the glades, I inherently know that there is a trail to my left or right or both.  The second part is that I also know that I will eventually reach a lift.  The last thing is that while there are some pretty nice glades in bounds, there is nothing the size of Slidebrook where you in theory could end up lost.  Even if I tried, it would be pretty hard for me to get lost in Semi-Tough or Eden.


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2021)

Guys, 

I appreciate all the Slidebrook feedback.  Part of what makes this site so valuable to me is the knowledge and the generosity of the participants.

Mike


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I get it.  That said, I'm very comfortable skiing the in bounds trees by myself and do so at SB on a regular basis.
> 
> However, there are three differences in my mind.  First is that while I may not be able to see the marked trail from where I am in the glades, I inherently know that there is a trail to my left or right or both.  The second part is that I also know that I will eventually reach a lift.  The last thing is that while there are some pretty nice glades in bounds, there is nothing the size of Slidebrook where you in theory could end up lost.  Even if I tried, it would be pretty hard for me to get lost in Semi-Tough or Eden.


I think that they used to offer group tours.....I don't know if they still do.  This would be a great way to introduce the area to you.  I finally skied it my last two seasons there with a buddy and it is really nice.  Long runs and nice trees.  Yes, you would be SOL if you were hurt and alone in there.  It is pretty big but generally it all leads to the Slide Brook and down to German Flats or back to the resort via the Condos.


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## pinnoke (Feb 8, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> ME was ridiculous today.  You didn’t have to look hard to find it.  Freshies everywhere between the trails & lots of sunshine.


+1 !!!!!  Lots of powder; lots of sunshine; wonderfully uncrowded. Today was a perfect day to ski trails often avoided; a special day, indeed.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2021)

I am not sure if anybody on here knew this guy.  I remember him from MRG and from seeing the pictures posted from Ember Photography about the Mt. Cardigan skin they did.  He seems like a nice guy.  Goes to show even in New England there is serious risk in the back country.

Ian Forgays - Mt Washington Avalanche


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2021)

Wow, that sucks.  14 feet down?  Holy crap!


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 9, 2021)

wow... that's too bad. 

RIP


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## CastlerockMRV (Feb 9, 2021)

That is tragic. My sincerest condolences to anyone on this board who may have known Ian.

The mention of the terrain trap was particularly eye opening to me. Seems like the situation may not have been any different even if he had an airbag and/or been skiing with a partner that day. I haven't skied any BC lines in VT w/ a  >30* sustained pitch, but this will be something I consider if I ever choose to tackle some of those lines up near Stowe or in NH.


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## 1dog (Feb 9, 2021)

Thx Hawk,

That line is a familiar one. Gives one pause . . . Recall the Cardigan photos - want to go based on them. Nice or not, when it's time, it's time.

I don't like skiing bc alone - but even a friend or two doesn't seem like he'd have been dug out.  RIP


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2021)

all this avalanche stuff is making me queasy.  terrible.


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## 1dog (Feb 9, 2021)

Agree

Back to our show:


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## Powder Whore (Feb 9, 2021)

1dog said:


> Agree
> 
> Back to our show:
> View attachment 50326


Plenty of pow to go around today. Possibly the best day of the year. Even the trails were caked up .


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## pinnoke (Feb 10, 2021)

And again, the words in PW's post from yesterday, above, can be repeated TODAY. And, I'll repeat a word from another of his/her/they's recent posts: "RIDICULOUS"! I'm officially bringing out an overused word from a few years back (not necessarily related to skiing)...EPIC.


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## Hawk (Feb 10, 2021)

I am hearing that word a lot Pinnoke.  Very jealous.  Rip it up.


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## kingslug (Feb 10, 2021)

Knee deep in some areas of Castlerock...pow day today.


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2021)

This is one of those days I really wish I could have snuck out for a few runs instead of working...looked empty on the webcams and I was a bit surprised to wake up to another 4" of snow this morning.


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## kingslug (Feb 10, 2021)

Empty..dumped most of the day..sun came out..went back in..snowed again. 
Blower Pow..face shots...


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Empty..dumped most of the day..sun came out..went back in..snowed again.
> Blower Pow..face shots...



I didn't expect to see you posting about skiing here at SB. I know you've been doing a lot of NY skiing. Did you completely skip the Epic pass this year?


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 10, 2021)

Last 2 days, easily top 10 of all time at SB over 25 years of skiing here. Untracked, knee deep lines in Race Course Woods. Morning Star just perfect. Paradise Woods best ever. Christmas Tree, Eagan's excellent. Amazing what it's like without a January thaw
Moving Zoom meetings around to get more tomorrow.


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## jaybird (Feb 10, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Last 2 days, easily top 10 of all time at SB over 25 years of skiing here. Untracked, knee deep lines in Race Course Woods. Morning Star just perfect. Paradise Woods best ever. Christmas Tree, Eagan's excellent. Amazing what it's like without a January thaw
> Moving Zoom meetings around to get more tomorrow.


Exits over snowmaking pipes all clear 
Blower .. with density beneath .. ahhhh !


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Empty..dumped most of the day..sun came out..went back in..snowed again.
> Blower Pow..face shots...


Be Better Here!!!


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2021)

Ski enough there and you will..


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## Hawk (Feb 11, 2021)

Jay I like the new avitar.  It reminds me of what I looked like after following the boys down that trail from the top of Perry Hill Waterbury.  LOL


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## JEEPSKIBUM (Feb 11, 2021)

Is there good cell service down at Slide Brook Rd/German Flats?   Thinking I could call for a pickup after a Slide Brook run.  If I end up elsewhere on German Flats Rd, could I make the call to get picked up?


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## Hawk (Feb 11, 2021)

I would not count on it.  Not sure which carriers work done there.  spotty at best.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

JEEPSKIBUM said:


> Is there good cell service down at Slide Brook Rd/German Flats?   Thinking I could call for a pickup after a Slide Brook run.  If I end up elsewhere on German Flats Rd, could I make the call to get picked up?





Hawk said:


> I would not count on it.  Not sure which carriers work done there.  spotty at best.



I can say that Verizon works along nearly the entire length of German Flats Rd itself. I was on the phone with my dad as I was driving back to my condo from town last week and maybe I lost him for a couple seconds once on the Warren side of German Flats closer to the SB Access Rd. I was a bit surprised honestly. I was expecting the call to drop.


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## WinS (Feb 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I can say that Verizon works along nearly the entire length of German Flats Rd itself. I was on the phone with my dad as I was driving back to my condo from town last week and maybe I lost him for a couple seconds once on the Warren side of German Flats closer to the SB Access Rd. I was a bit surprised honestly. I was expecting the call to drop.


Verizon and AT&T should work fine. Sprint not so. AT&T and Verizon are on  the same tower above Village Run. I have AT&T and have always been connected the entirety of German Flat’s. The dead zones I find in the Valley are in Warren Village, between Citgo and Kingsbury road on 100 and between Mad River Barn and Mad River Glen on 17.


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## WinS (Feb 11, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Last 2 days, easily top 10 of all time at SB over 25 years of skiing here. Untracked, knee deep lines in Race Course Woods. Morning Star just perfect. Paradise Woods best ever. Christmas Tree, Eagan's excellent. Amazing what it's like without a January thaw
> Moving Zoom meetings around to get more tomorrow.


I was wondering who got into Racer’s Edge Woods. It is often overlooked and I have had a couple of first tracks in there the past couple of weeks.


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2021)

Worth every penny we spent on day tix rather than stand on lines at Stowe. It was even snowing a little today..Thats like 7 days in a row so far. Still great turns at Castle rock, spillsville, Eden, ...guess I passed Racers edge woods though. Yesterday was a top 5 for the season.. Getting a pass for next season for sure. Liking it better than Stowe for sure.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

WinS said:


> Verizon and AT&T should work fine. Sprint not so. AT&T and Verizon are on  the same tower above Village Run. I have AT&T and have always been connected the entirety of German Flat’s. The dead zones I find in the Valley are in Warren Village, between Citgo and Kingsbury road on 100 and between Mad River Barn and Mad River Glen on 17.


That's interesting that AT&T and Verizon are on the same tower above Village Run. AT&T at my condo is absolutely terrible, especially with trying to load anything data related (my work phone is AT&T, personal is Verizon).


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Worth every penny we spent on day tix rather than stand on lines at Stowe. It was even snowing a little today..Thats like 7 days in a row so far. Still great turns at Castle rock, spillsville, Eden, ...guess I passed Racers edge woods though. Yesterday was a top 5 for the season.. Getting a pass for next season for sure. Liking it better than Stowe for sure.



Wow...does Stowe still have lines even mid-week? Awesome that you like SB so much though.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Worth every penny we spent on day tix rather than stand on lines at Stowe. It was even snowing a little today..Thats like 7 days in a row so far. Still great turns at Castle rock, spillsville, Eden, ...guess I passed Racers edge woods though. Yesterday was a top 5 for the season.. Getting a pass for next season for sure. Liking it better than Stowe for sure.


Wait until you see how little traffic we have in town and how laid back the area is compared to Stowe. There may not be as many dining/shopping options, but who cares, we can still get around easily and with the goods at Meuhurons, I'd rather cook! and then there is Slidebrook... maybe not the gnar of the notch, but finding endless amounts of powder to cruise seals the deal. You'll be selling your condo in no time! The mountain biking is pretty good around here too!


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## hovercraft (Feb 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Wow...does Stowe still have lines even mid-week? Awesome that you like SB so much though.


I have been to Stowe everyday this week, no lines.  Snow was waist deep in the notch….


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2021)

No lines? I was there saturday Sunday Monday...quad isn't too bad 10 to 12 minutes..on a monday. The gondi is almost 20 minutes due to limited loading. I never waited on any line at SB Tues,wed, and today. Driving to SB I passed hundreds of cars heading to Stowe. And yesterday was a legitimate powder day...empty.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Wait until you see how little traffic we have in town and how laid back the area is compared to Stowe. There may not be as many dining/shopping options, but who cares, we can still get around easily and with the goods at Meuhurons, I'd rather cook! and then there is Slidebrook... maybe not the gnar of the notch, but finding endless amounts of powder to cruise seals the deal. You'll be selling your condo in no time! The mountain biking is pretty good around here too!



There may not be as many dining options, but we do have some damn good (and creative/different) ones. Peasant, Fit 2 Be Thai'd, Mad River Barn, Tucker Hill Inn, American Flatbread, Mad Taco, Stoke Ramen.

Although I do enjoy cooking as well and Mehurons is a great market.


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2021)

9Am... at the Bush
Saturday,Sunday and Monday the 730 chair at Stowe had at least 50 people waiting.  People want to ski...its a good thing in the end. Conditions are primo all over..who wouldn't want to.


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## WinS (Feb 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That's interesting that AT&T and Verizon are on the same tower above Village Run. AT&T at my condo is absolutely terrible, especially with trying to load anything data related (my work phone is AT&T, personal is Verizon).


That’s interesting. I often use AT&T instead of my wireless at home in East Warren for email and searches. Posting that way now from my Ipad.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

WinS said:


> That’s interesting. I often use AT&T instead of my wireless at home in East Warren for email and searches. Posting that way now from my Ipad.


Works fine other spots in the valley (including anywhere on the mountain itself), but around my condo and even in Sugarbush Village at places like Mutha Stuffers it is so painfully slow that at times you can't even refresh the Sugarbush App or website (or it takes several minutes or multiple retries to load). Very strange. No such issues with my Verizon phone though.


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## hovercraft (Feb 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 9Am... at the BushView attachment 50345
> Saturday,Sunday and Monday the 730 chair at Stowe had at least 50 people waiting.  People want to ski...its a good thing in the end. Conditions are primo all over..who wouldn't want to.


When I said this week I wasn’t thinking of Saturday as I don’t go on Saturday’s.  Sunday the line wasn’t more then 5 minutes and Monday-Today there was maybe a 2 minute wait at times.  I also wouldn’t consider 50 people waiting for the 7:30 chair much of a line.  Anyway like you said the Conditions are stellar.


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## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

Last season on the weekends i woukd get there around 715..empty..maybe 10 people at first on line..around 9 it would start to get busy..this season has changed it..have to see what happens next season.
Windchills 35 below at the top today...hmmm


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## Powder Whore (Feb 12, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> And again, the words in PW's post from yesterday, above, can be repeated TODAY. And, I'll repeat a word from another of his/her/they's recent posts: "RIDICULOUS"! I'm officially bringing out an overused word from a few years back (not necessarily related to skiing)...EPIC.


How those legs feeling Pinnoke? I have been trying to work in an off day all week but the snow is to good. I skied fat skis tues-thurs, my legs are spent!


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## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

Brought out the big bazookas as well wed and thurs...now lying here contemplating ...35 below windchills at the top of stowe..gondi on windhold..skied 6 days in a row so far..motivation a bit low right now..


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## djd66 (Feb 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Works fine other spots in the valley (including anywhere on the mountain itself), but around my condo and even in Sugarbush Village at places like Mutha Stuffers it is so painfully slow that at times you can't even refresh the Sugarbush App or website (or it takes several minutes or multiple retries to load). Very strange. No such issues with my Verizon phone though.


CD - I have ATT and have the same issues on trying to upload anything. i wonder if it is being throttled by Verizon?  Have you done a speed test on your Verizon phone?


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2021)

djd66 said:


> CD - I have ATT and have the same issues on trying to upload anything. i wonder if it is being throttled by Verizon?  Have you done a speed test on your Verizon phone?


I get 5 down and 4 up on my Verizon and at the moment got 6.4 down and 0.5 up on my AT&T. I'll be curious to retest this weekend when there are more people around to see if that makes a difference. Verizon has 3-4 bars and AT&T has 1-2 bars currently. Very interesting if they're both coming off the same tower above Village Run.


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Last season on the weekends i woukd get there around 715..empty..maybe 10 people at first on line..around 9 it would start to get busy..this season has changed it..have to see what happens next season.
> Windchills 35 below at the top today...hmmm


Agreed, I am a first chair person as well and this year is much different then last year.  Can’t even get over to the Gondi as the line is always long, just the nature of the beast.  Overall I think they have done a good job managing the Covid environment we find ourselves in.  Will be interesting to see what next season brings.  In the meantime bring on more snow and enjoy what we have!


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Brought out the big bazookas as well wed and thurs...now lying here contemplating ...35 below windchills at the top of stowe..gondi on windhold..skied 6 days in a row so far..motivation a bit low right now..


your dreams of an uncrowded sugarbush most likely will be shattered if you show up this weekend!


----------



## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

Going to Stowe in a little while..for a little while. This cold may keep some away, or drive them out after a while..
The difference between Stowe and SB is you have a lot more options at SB. Stowe, its a quad or a gondi. Although Spruce is a good place to hide a little. 
This is the first season I really got to check out SB when its fully open. Really like Castlerock..exhausting but cool.


----------



## HowieT2 (Feb 12, 2021)

Same tower doesn’t mean it’s the same antenna/equipment.I believe att and Verizon run on different technology standards.

yesterday was wow.  I’ve had many powder days here at sugarbush, but not any that I can recall when castlerock is ski on the entire time.  Did 6 laps, 3 each on castlerock run and middle earth with some woods mixed in.  Just awesome conditions.  Even the creeks are filling in.  Then I headed over to north lynx for some runs to time the bus and slidebrook door one Which was about as good as it gets.  No problem with the bus back to the base.

has anyone recently done the slidebrook run back to out to lunch which is known to me as south beach?  Wondering if its overgrown as I havent done it in a few seasons.


----------



## HowieT2 (Feb 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Going to Stowe in a little while..for a little while. This cold may keep some away, or drive them out after a while..
> The difference between Stowe and SB is you have a lot more options at SB. Stowe, its a quad or a gondi. Although Spruce is a good place to hide a little.
> This is the first season I really got to check out SB when its fully open. Really like Castlerock..exhausting but cool.


I think you’ll find that the way sugarbush lifts are set up, in a hub and spoke system, is really beneficial to regular skiers looking to lap the upper mountain terrain without having to deal with the crowds on the base lifts.  There are downsides when pods aren’t open due to windhold, lack of snow or mechanical, but when everything is up and running, it’s a huge advantage imho.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 12, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Same tower doesn’t mean it’s the same antenna/equipment.I believe att and Verizon run on different technology standards.
> 
> yesterday was wow.  I’ve had many powder days here at sugarbush, but not any that I can recall when castlerock is ski on the entire time.  Did 6 laps, 3 each on castlerock run and middle earth with some woods mixed in.  Just awesome conditions.  Even the creeks are filling in.  Then I headed over to north lynx for some runs to time the bus and slidebrook door one Which was about as good as it gets.  No problem with the bus back to the base.
> 
> has anyone recently done the slidebrook run back to out to lunch which is known to me as south beach?  Wondering if its overgrown as I havent done it in a few seasons.


South Beach is serving it up as smooth and wonderful as any Mojito can be had. Drink up!


----------



## djd66 (Feb 12, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Same tower doesn’t mean it’s the same antenna/equipment.I believe att and Verizon run on different technology standards.
> 
> yesterday was wow.  I’ve had many powder days here at sugarbush, but not any that I can recall when castlerock is ski on the entire time.  Did 6 laps, 3 each on castlerock run and middle earth with some woods mixed in.  Just awesome conditions.  Even the creeks are filling in.  Then I headed over to north lynx for some runs to time the bus and slidebrook door one Which was about as good as it gets.  No problem with the bus back to the base.
> 
> has anyone recently done the slidebrook run back to out to lunch which is known to me as south beach?  Wondering if its overgrown as I havent done it in a few seasons.


I did slidebrook back to the village run trail last weekend and it skied great.  How do you ski to the OTL trail?


----------



## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

_its like Gore..you can avoid crowds at the bottom. Today at Stowe wasn't busy at all..cold as hell but not busy. And my favorite run was closed..again..Goat.
Meanwhile yesterday going up CR chair looking at the rock face and a few skiing down it..I was thinking..nope..Vail would never open that. I'm an SB convert for sure now. _


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Same tower doesn’t mean it’s the same antenna/equipment.I believe att and Verizon run on different technology standards.



Agreed that it may be different equipment. And years ago you are 100% correct that they had different technology (Verizon used CDMA while AT&T used GSM). That's one of the big reasons we had a lot of AT&T (and T-Mobile) devices at work for years (GSM was much more compatible Internationally while CDMA worked in only a handful of other countries). I'm not quite as up to date on the technology today, but I believe they both now use LTE as of 4G devices. Still doesn't mean they share equipment on the tower or allow one another to use each other's network.



HowieT2 said:


> I think you’ll find that the way sugarbush lifts are set up, in a hub and spoke system, is really beneficial to regular skiers looking to lap the upper mountain terrain without having to deal with the crowds on the base lifts.  There are downsides when pods aren’t open due to windhold, lack of snow or mechanical, but when everything is up and running, it’s a huge advantage imho.


I personally much prefer this type of lift setup over a more top to bottom setup like Stowe has. (I've been criticized in other threads for that opinion in the past though!). I think it has a lot of advantages with helping spread people out and actually also think there are upsides when it comes to wind holds since you can potentially isolate and shut down just certain lifts/pods. If a top to bottom lift goes down due to wind, that can have a major impact on terrain availability depending on how other lifts are setup.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 12, 2021)

PS...went out this afternoon around 1 after I finished work. Couldn't believe how empty it was. Every lift was pretty much ski on (including Castlerock). Wish I was able to get out earlier in the week when the snow as fresher everywhere, but there's still plenty of leftovers out there. Top of CR Run was worn out a bit, but Lower CR Run seemed like barely anyone skied it!


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## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

Hit Castlerock run several times this week as well as middle earth and cotillion..with a few breaks through the toll road which was almost knee deep. Best lines of the year.
even the bumps on right side of ripcord were deep.


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 12, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> South Beach is serving it up as smooth and wonderful as any Mojito can be had. Drink up!


It is South Beech, and yesterday it absolutely sucked. Stay out of there, there be dragons.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> _its like Gore..you can avoid crowds at the bottom. Today at Stowe wasn't busy at all..cold as hell but not busy. And my favorite run was closed..again..Goat.
> Meanwhile yesterday going up CR chair looking at the rock face and a few skiing down it..I was thinking..nope..Vail would never open that. I'm an SB convert for sure now. _


How could Goat possibly be closed these days?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 12, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> How could Goat possibly be closed these days?



because vail.


----------



## jaybird (Feb 12, 2021)

Weds blower called for nonstop CR ski-on ascents .. best it's been all year .. easy   
.. and Ripcord filled in down the right hand alley is worth the effort.
This refresh cycle is one of the most consistent stretches we've seen in a decade.
That rodent Phil is a pal 



kingslug said:


> Hit Castlerock run several times this week as well as middle earth and cotillion..with a few breaks through the toll road which was almost knee deep. Best lines of the year.
> even the bumps on right side of ripcord were deep.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

Goat..upper liftline, upper starr , lookout..all closed. Its Vail..they wouldn't want you hitting a rock or something. Very lame. But you can still hit the middle of all of them except Goat..totaly closed.


----------



## Lynxewoods (Feb 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Hit Castlerock run several times this week as well as middle earth and cotillion..with a few breaks through the toll road which was almost knee deep. Best lines of the year.
> even the bumps on right side of ripcord were deep.


This fantastic ski season is brought to you by me finally committing to getting my knee replacement. Rip it up out there for me!


----------



## teleo (Feb 12, 2021)

shipyardcreek said:


> It is South Beech, and yesterday it absolutely sucked. Stay out of there, there be dragons.


Tried to take it home to my condo. Overgrown, blowdowns.  Sucks in there. I'd vote stay out too.


----------



## Hawk (Feb 13, 2021)

Been skiing back to my condo for 15 years now. Sorry but I find really sad that this is the first year that it is totally overrun.  used to be very quiet.  Lots of first timers I have run into outside of my condo asking how to get back to the base.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 13, 2021)

Damn..it is friggin cold out there..day 8..motivation...low


----------



## jaybird (Feb 13, 2021)

Goat is overrated.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 13, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Goat is overrated.



the narrow double fall line isn't the most fun ski. def not my favorite at stowe, which would probably be bypass and the woods beyond bypass. but the point is that they're keeping their steepest and rockiest terrain closed when conditions are primo.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 13, 2021)

And closed. Yet you can go through the woods into lookout or Starr. Still good in there.


----------



## ducky (Feb 13, 2021)

Was actually overdressed today with double longjohns and my regular gear. Walk on at Gate House 10am, same for Lynx.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 13, 2021)

Actually planned ahead a bit for the Fireworks tonight and had a much better spot in mind to take some photos:




Skiing wasn't too bad either...
View attachment DSC_0612a.jpg


----------



## keyser soze (Feb 13, 2021)

How were the conditions at  Sugarbush today?  Getting scraped off??


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Feb 13, 2021)

Excellent fireworks tonight. 
Another fantastic day at SB. Not quite the fresh snow of last Tuesday and Wednesday, but still excellent. Minimal crowds. Max 5 minutes at Gate House at 11am. Cold, but confortable since there was no wind. Prepped for the arctic and was way overdressed. Essentially ski on at all lifts for most of the day.  At Ellen all afternoon. Spent the afternoon doing high speed cruisers, lapping North Ridge (son brought out the GS skis) lift was ski on all the time. Snow conditions were very good, nothing skied off. Another 2-3 inches tonight will refresh things nicely.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 13, 2021)

BTW, great photos CD. The fireworks were really good. Some unique shells that I hadn't seen before.


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## Tonyr (Feb 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Actually planned ahead a bit for the Fireworks tonight and had a much better spot in mind to take some photos:
> View attachment 50372
> View attachment 50373View attachment 50374View attachment 50375
> 
> ...


Great photos!


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 14, 2021)

a real camera ya? everytime ive ever taken a picture of a firework with an iphone its been a waste of storage space on the phone/icloud


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## Powder Whore (Feb 14, 2021)

ducky said:


> Was actually overdressed today with double longjohns and my regular gear. Walk on at Gate House 10am, same for Lynx.


I went with an extra layer most of the week and regretted it most of the week.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a real camera ya? everytime ive ever taken a picture of a firework with an iphone its been a waste of storage space on the phone/icloud


Yes, real DSLR camera with a tripod and remote shutter so I don't shake the camera while taking a shot and can control how long the shutter is open manually


----------



## WinS (Feb 15, 2021)

Su


HowieT2 said:


> I think you’ll find that the way sugarbush lifts are set up, in a hub and spoke system, is really beneficial to regular skiers looking to lap the upper mountain terrain without having to deal with the crowds on the base lifts.  There are downsides when pods aren’t open due to windhold, lack of snow or mechanical, but when everything is up and running, it’s a huge advantage imho.


As I recall the Vertical lift capacity at Sugarbush is 25,225  people  for the 16 lifts (non including GMVS surface lifts).  For Stowe’s 10 it in 19,700 and much of that is on Spruce Peak side.


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## kingslug (Feb 15, 2021)

At Spruce I head right for the Sensation quad..which is usually one of the colder places on earth so lines are non existent. Just wish they had more back there.


----------



## mikec142 (Feb 16, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> your dreams of an uncrowded sugarbush most likely will be shattered if you show up this weekend!


Surprisingly not true.  Was with the family this weekend so got out a bit later than normal.  But both Saturday and Sunday, arrived at Lincoln Peak around 8:50 and got spots in the main, upper lot.  Totally expected to be way down the parking totem pole.  Not sure what to attribute it to...maybe on Saturday people got scared away due to the cold.  I dressed normally and was fine.  It was sunny and no wind, so really not a big deal.  All the lifts were maybe 1-2 minute waits with Castlerock  being a 3-5 minute wait.  Sunday I expected the crowds to be there for sure and got the same exact spot in the lot.  GH and SB started to have lines around 11am but still very reasonable.

Saturday was the better conditions of the two days.  Cold, but sunny and no wind.  Sunday was much warmer, but freezing fog from the top of Super Bravo upward.  It was the kind of misty fog that instantly froze on your goggles.  It got better as the day wore on, but visibility was challenging up top for a decent part of the day.  A couple of highlights for me from the weekend.  My youngest (16) continues to progress and it's really fun to watch.  Pretty sure I mentioned it upthread, but I can no longer keep up with her.  She's fast and graceful.  Also discovered Lew's Line and Ruffed Up.  Went down Domino with my kid and two bumps in she's in the woods.  I followed her in...plenty of soft snow in there.  A lot of fun.  More challenging than Eden and Deeper Sleeper, but really fun.  Since I had never been in there, I took my time...enough time that my kid texted me (twice) from the HG traverse asking if I was all good...LOL.  Talk about a blow to the ego. 

Castlerock Run was really fun on Saturday, but by Sunday, the top was a bit scraped off and the bumps were bigger and firmer.  Lower CRR was still excellent.  The top of Paradise has a lot of exposed rocks, but if you navigate down about 50 yards, the coverage is much better.  I think both trails will benefit from the additional snow this week.  Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to do both.  But CRR took a lot out of me.

Was planning on skiing Monday, but tired legs and the prospect of a long, treacherous drive home after skiing a couple of hours didn't sit well.  As sad as I was to miss a ski day, it was the right call.


----------



## jaybird (Feb 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes, real DSLR camera with a tripod and remote shutter so I don't shake the camera while taking a shot and can control how long the shutter is open manually





mikec142 said:


> Surprisingly not true.  Was with the family this weekend so got out a bit later than normal.  But both Saturday and Sunday, arrived at Lincoln Peak around 8:50 and got spots in the main, upper lot.  Totally expected to be way down the parking totem pole.  Not sure what to attribute it to...maybe on Saturday people got scared away due to the cold.  I dressed normally and was fine.  It was sunny and no wind, so really not a big deal.  All the lifts were maybe 1-2 minute waits with Castlerock  being a 3-5 minute wait.  Sunday I expected the crowds to be there for sure and got the same exact spot in the lot.  GH and SB started to have lines around 11am but still very reasonable.
> 
> Saturday was the better conditions of the two days.  Cold, but sunny and no wind.  Sunday was much warmer, but freezing fog from the top of Super Bravo upward.  It was the kind of misty fog that instantly froze on your goggles.  It got better as the day wore on, but visibility was challenging up top for a decent part of the day.  A couple of highlights for me from the weekend.  My youngest (16) continues to progress and it's really fun to watch.  Pretty sure I mentioned it upthread, but I can no longer keep up with her.  She's fast and graceful.  Also discovered Lew's Line and Ruffed Up.  Went down Domino with my kid and two bumps in she's in the woods.  I followed her in...plenty of soft snow in there.  A lot of fun.  More challenging than Eden and Deeper Sleeper, but really fun.  Since I had never been in there, I took my time...enough time that my kid texted me (twice) from the HG traverse asking if I was all good...LOL.  Talk about a blow to the ego.
> 
> ...


----------



## jaybird (Feb 16, 2021)

Eeegads.
When did they last groom Middle Earth


----------



## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Eeegads.
> When did they last groom Middle Earth



I'm tempted to say late April 2018 unless I forgot about something since then... everyone in the CR lift line that morning gave a big cheer to the groomer (Dan?) when he skied down and got into line to go ski his handiwork.


----------



## mikec142 (Feb 16, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Eeegads.
> When did they last groom Middle Earth


I saw that on the snow report this AM.  Previously, I've read Win's reasoning for a once in a blue moon Castlerock area groom.  I see the logic there.


----------



## jaybird (Feb 16, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I saw that on the snow report this AM.  Previously, I've read Win's reasoning for a once in a blue moon Castlerock area groom.  I see the logic there.


The 'sluice' covered ?
Gotta ski that to believe it.


----------



## Powder Whore (Feb 16, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Surprisingly not true.  Was with the family this weekend so got out a bit later than normal.  But both Saturday and Sunday, arrived at Lincoln Peak around 8:50 and got spots in the main, upper lot.  Totally expected to be way down the parking totem pole.  Not sure what to attribute it to...maybe on Saturday people got scared away due to the cold.  I dressed normally and was fine.  It was sunny and no wind, so really not a big deal.  All the lifts were maybe 1-2 minute waits with Castlerock  being a 3-5 minute wait.  Sunday I expected the crowds to be there for sure and got the same exact spot in the lot.  GH and SB started to have lines around 11am but still very reasonable.
> 
> Saturday was the better conditions of the two days.  Cold, but sunny and no wind.  Sunday was much warmer, but freezing fog from the top of Super Bravo upward.  It was the kind of misty fog that instantly froze on your goggles.  It got better as the day wore on, but visibility was challenging up top for a decent part of the day.  A couple of highlights for me from the weekend.  My youngest (16) continues to progress and it's really fun to watch.  Pretty sure I mentioned it upthread, but I can no longer keep up with her.  She's fast and graceful.  Also discovered Lew's Line and Ruffed Up.  Went down Domino with my kid and two bumps in she's in the woods.  I followed her in...plenty of soft snow in there.  A lot of fun.  More challenging than Eden and Deeper Sleeper, but really fun.  Since I had never been in there, I took my time...enough time that my kid texted me (twice) from the HG traverse asking if I was all good...LOL.  Talk about a blow to the ego.
> 
> ...


Last weekend was a “blackout” weekend for icon base pass holders.


----------



## tumbler (Feb 16, 2021)

The bumps were not very good on Middle earth, big and not spaced well.  Jaws was covered.  It is nice to do a reset up there every once in a while.


----------



## mikec142 (Feb 16, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Last weekend was a “blackout” weekend for icon base pass holders.


Ahhhhhh...totally forgot about that.

Anyone know the cost of the base pass vs. the full pass.  I have the full pass and it was $1000.  I'm fascinated to know how much savings you get.  For me, I can't imagine the savings being worth it.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Ahhhhhh...totally forgot about that.
> 
> Anyone know the cost of the base pass vs. the full pass.  I have the full pass and it was $1000.  I'm fascinated to know how much savings you get.  For me, I can't imagine the savings being worth it.



I feel like it was less than a $200 difference after you factored in the "renewal" discounts existing SB pass-holders were given...


----------



## jaybird (Feb 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I feel like it was less than a $200 difference after you factored in the "renewal" discounts existing SB pass-holders were given...


My renewal ikon base cost $635 including pass insurance. The insurance factored well for us last year .. sciatica sucks.


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## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

jaybird said:


> My renewal ikon base cost $635 including pass insurance. The insurance factored well for us last year .. sciatica sucks.



I wasn't far off then. My Ikon full cost just under $850 including the optional pass insurance.


----------



## WWF-VT (Feb 16, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Eeegads.
> When did they last groom Middle Earth



Around this time last season


----------



## Hawk (Feb 16, 2021)

Typically they hit Castlerock run before Middle Earth.  But yes it is usually around now when a storm is coming.


----------



## Hawk (Feb 16, 2021)

I believe the full IKON Renewal was originally $799 early season and then they gave us an other $100 off so $699 without any insurance costs?  Then we added some things.


----------



## WinS (Feb 16, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Around this time last season


There has to be enough depth so one doesn’t have to buy a new tiller and ideally before a storm. Middle Earth needed on more than CR imho. Just a shame we did not get 6 more inches but is skied well and set up for Thursday night/Friday snow which should be lighter. I bet they do a couple more of the other infrequently groomed trails this week too. Today’s snow is good for that.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 16, 2021)

i think my icon renewal was $650ish and i'd much rather have the base pass + indy pass than the full ikon pass. love the variety on the indy and the ability to skip holiday weekends at the big players (even tho it appears this weekend was strangely quiet at the majors). i regret not getting out on Saturday, but with valentines day Sunday my presence was expected at home, and two day trips in a 3 day weekend is a lot of back and forth. hit berkshire east on Monday and loved it.


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## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

I saw Cliffs on the grooming report today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's all natural snow this year on Cliffs, right? That's the only trail that usually gets hit with snowmaking that I don't think I ever saw any snowmaking on this year.


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## mikec142 (Feb 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think my icon renewal was $650ish and i'd much rather have the base pass + indy pass than the full ikon pass. love the variety on the indy and the ability to skip holiday weekends at the big players (even tho it appears this weekend was strangely quiet at the majors). i regret not getting out on Saturday, but with valentines day Sunday my presence was expected at home, and two day trips in a 3 day weekend is a lot of back and forth. hit berkshire east on Monday and loved it.


I get that.  But with kids, there is a necessity to plan around their school vacations.  Getting the 10 days of friends and family passes this year has been a huge perk. Saving 25% (maybe a bit less if you plan way in advance) on tix for my kids and not having to make a reservation way in advance has taken a lot of pressure off of me.

This has been my first year with the Ikon Pass (which is why I had to pay full boat).  Previous years I'd been hesitant because the dollars didn't always make sense due to the availability of quad packs).  But this season...combine the lack of quad packs with the addition of Windham for day trips and it's been a win for me.  If I somehow (doubtful) find a way to get out west this season it will be a massive win.  And to think, I was hesitant not only to buy it, but to even use it this year as I was thinking about punting on the season and rolling the dollars over to next year.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Feb 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm tempted to say late April 2018 unless I forgot about something since then... everyone in the CR lift line that morning gave a big cheer to the groomer (Dan?) when he skied down and got into line to go ski his handiwork.


They did it last year in late February along with Castlerock run.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They did it last year in late February along with Castlerock run.


You're right, both were groomed for Feb 29th. Same day the groomer got stuck or broke down or whatever on either Twist or Moonshine...


----------



## WWF-VT (Feb 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I saw Cliffs on the grooming report today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's all natural snow this year on Cliffs, right? That's the only trail that usually gets hit with snowmaking that I don't think I ever saw any snowmaking on this year.



To the best of my knowledge there has been no snowmaking on FIS this year and there are no plans to do it


----------



## cdskier (Feb 16, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> To the best of my knowledge there has been no snowmaking on FIS this year and there are no plans to do it



FIS did run briefly in late December/early January but there were some valve leaks which needed repairing if I recall correctly. I don't think they went back to it after that though. It has been skiing quite well anytime I've been on it the past couple weeks. I think I've actually already skied it more this year than I do most years...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 17, 2021)

sugarbush's report today is way too rosy. alluding to great packed powder conditions and such. no mention of crap weather yesterday.

i have a feeling MRG is telling the truer tale: "The mixed precipitation and generally wet snow, has firmed up quite a bit under last night’s below 0 temperatures. This has resulted in a surface crust layer with some soft, wind-blown snow on top thanks to the high winds we are currently experiencing. Skier traffic will likely go a long way to breaking up said crust layer and bringing our previously packed powder ski condition back to the surface."


----------



## Hawk (Feb 17, 2021)

This is nothing new Kusty.  Unless it is absolutely horrid they are usually reluctant to paint a bleak picture.  Whatever.  I can usually read between the lines.

Obviously it did not fool you.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 17, 2021)

Sugarbush's snow reports used to not be quite as positive all the time...but that's why I always take a peak at MRG's report too (and you tend to know what to expect generally anyway based on the recent weather).


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush's snow reports used to not be quite as positive all the time...but that's why I always take a peak at MRG's report too (and you tend to know what to expect generally anyway based on the recent weather).


from the couple reports I have received from folks skiing today, the MRG report is the true report.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush's snow reports used to not be quite as positive all the time...but that's why I always take a peak at MRG's report too (and you tend to know what to expect generally anyway based on the recent weather).



yea, that was my recollection as well. i could be wrong, but i thought i recalled them being pretty straight shooters in past years.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Feb 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> You're right, both were groomed for Feb 29th. Same day the groomer got stuck or broke down or whatever on either Twist or Moonshine...


Yep. That was a cool weekend with all those groomed trails, only for the work to essentially be meaningless as the dominos fell about 2 weeks later. I prefer all of those trails with moguls, but it’s cool to get to experience something new and different. It was also a bit of a powder day. Organgrinder had amazing powder on it and nobody was skiing it early in the morning.


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> from the couple reports I have received from folks skiing today, the MRG report is the true report.



Not surprised with what I just scraped off my truck. I should have cleaned it off yesterday when it was above freezing out...


----------



## HowieT2 (Feb 17, 2021)

I thought the top of castlerock run needed grooming more than middle earth, but whatever.
yesterday was a weird day.  disappointed when I got up and it was mixed precip.  I knew that was a bad sign.  The snow surface was actually great especially where a base refresh was in order.  Having to clear the goggles constantly is huge turn off for me.  I'm not a naturally good skier so when I can't see, I get tentative and sit in the back seat.  not good.
I'd imagine we need some snow to bury the thaw freeze layer before surface conditions become good again.


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Yep. That was a cool weekend with all those groomed trails, only for the work to essentially be meaningless as the dominos fell about 2 weeks later. I prefer all of those trails with moguls, but it’s cool to get to experience something new and different. It was also a bit of a powder day. Organgrinder had amazing powder on it and nobody was skiing it early in the morning.


Yea...summit lifts the couple days before that had some wind holds, so a lot of the upper mountain had barely touched powder from the previous few days. I skied Spillsville and Paradise early that morning with some great conditions. That was what stuck out in my memory and why I completely forgot they groomed CR that day.


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> from the couple reports I have received from folks skiing today, the MRG report is the true report.


This is the email sugarbush sent out


​




A Week of Snowstorms​Mother Nature brought five inches of fresh snow yesterday and we’re expected to get six to eight more inches tomorrow! All 111 of our trails are skiing and riding great, and conditions just keep getting better. Keep an eye on the Snow Report and make your plans to get in a powder day here at Sugarbush Resort! It’s a great week to be at the mountain​


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 17, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> This is the email sugarbush sent out
> 
> ​
> ​
> ...


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 17, 2021)

ya thats the report language i was referring to above. pretty shitty of them to paint it like that.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya thats the report language i was referring to above. pretty shitty of them to paint it like that.


even shittier is that the 6-8" is unlikely to happen


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2021)

They did update the snow report this afternoon to be a little more honest (maybe someone's listening to us!)



> While all of the precipitation that fell during Monday and Tuesday's storm remained all frozen, it wasn't all snowflakes that made it to the ground. A dash of sleet and splash of freezing rain did reach us, so if you're venturing off-piste or onto an ungroomed trail, take it a little slower til you know how conditions have changed, especially down low towards the base.


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## Harvey (Feb 17, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> OK, we're getting a lot of good questions in here...let's plan on wrapping it up TOMORROW Noon or so.


Why is "Sugarbush Thread" in quotes?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 17, 2021)

alleged ski area located between waitsfield and warren vermont


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Why is "Sugarbush Thread" in quotes?


Because, at the time, we wanted to make one thread to have discussion that was Sugarbush-specific.  What happened was that we did an AZ Challenge and the questions turned into discussion, so we split off the thread into its own thing.  That was how many years ago?


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## ducky (Feb 17, 2021)

Eric at Mad River used to refer to it as "Loud Powder." Even posted a sarcastic video on a freeze-up day of the noise coming down Chute. "The most honest snow reports in the business."

Folks, it was 39˚ yesterday and 6˚ last night. Those of us who plow snow understand. Dirts roads are now like cement - frozen mud ruts from yesterday.


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## flakeydog (Feb 18, 2021)

Coming in at a blistering 10 posts, the "Stowe Thread" is really making a run for us over here.  I was going to post something over there but I didnt want to push the post count up too high.

Meanwhile, "Vail Sucks" is at 79 pages and counting....a thread of epic proportions!


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## kingslug (Feb 18, 2021)

Vail epically sux...


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## tumbler (Feb 18, 2021)

Could use an honest conditions report on today's skiing.  Is it just frozen groomers or is some of the natural ok?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Could use an honest conditions report on today's skiing.  Is it just frozen groomers or is some of the natural ok?



i'm not there, and i am also curious, but i would have to assume ungroomed terrain = bad until new snow and/or warm for corn


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2021)

I was told that there is a "Death Crust" from the above freezing period on  Monday.  He said that it is not a "ziper crust".   Up top might be a little better but my report was not that specific.  Saw a short video of a ski boot crunching the crust on facebook.  This person said we will need a refresher of 6" to make it better.


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## 1dog (Feb 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I was told that there is a "Death Crust" from the above freezing period on  Monday.  He said that it is not a "ziper crust".   Up top might be a little better but my report was not that specific.  Saw a short video of a ski boot crunching the crust on facebook.  This person said we will need a refresher of 6" to make it better.


Here is your 6":





						Mount Ellen (Vermont) Weather Forecast (1244m)
					

Mount Ellen (Vermont), Green Mountains, Appalachians, United States Mountain weather forecast for 1244m. Detailed 6 day mountain weather forecast for climbers and mountaineers.



					www.mountain-forecast.com


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2021)

I will count that when it is on the ground.  Weather forecasts this year have been all over the place.  We will see.  I will be there.


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## 1dog (Feb 18, 2021)

Understand. In my experience they have been under-estimating snowfall on the hill. And that's just fine with me as well. Stay home everyone, nothing to see here. Matter of fact, we are instituting mail-in-ski days, so you don't have to drive, break 'laws' by crossing state lines, and Dominion will now be counting ski runs on your mail-in lift tickets. If you are dead, ski in another state, won't matter, because every lift ticket counts - even twice. 

Bush has been conservative on estimates, and like most NIMBY's those of us who call it home are ok with it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

the gfs has snow setting up across all of Vermont and NH for a pretty long chunk of time. lets hope it piles up.


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## Powder Whore (Feb 18, 2021)

I find it best not to talk about the  “w” word.


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2021)

1dog said:


> Understand. In my experience they have been under-estimating snowfall on the hill. And that's just fine with me as well. Stay home everyone, nothing to see here. Matter of fact, we are instituting mail-in-ski days, so you don't have to drive, break 'laws' by crossing state lines, and Dominion will now be counting ski runs on your mail-in lift tickets. If you are dead, ski in another state, won't matter, because every lift ticket counts - even twice.
> 
> Bush has been conservative on estimates, and like most NIMBY's those of us who call it home are ok with it.


I love your optimism but I have to point out just this last Monday.  They predicted anywhere from 6 to12 and we got 5 and freezing rain.  That is not underestimating in my book.  Again I will be there and count it on the ground.  Hoping for the best.


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## Hawk (Feb 18, 2021)

Also, I have no idea what you were trying to say in that last post at all. I guess I am way to old to understand all that millennial speak.  LOL


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

encouraging assessment from mrg today. ive got a bed Friday and Saturday in rutland. but i haven't the slightest idea yet of where i will ski this weekend. 

"We put out the call this morning and the Mad River faithful came out and went to work. After a day of hammering on the moguls and non-groomed runs, we’re starting to see some softer snow make its way to the surface from underneath the crust layer. This increase in traffic and slightly warmer temperatures have gone a long way to improving the surface condition of the snowpack. Skiers could even find some decent turns out in the woods after a little work to get underneath the crust. The groomed trails were phenomenal once again, perfect for both arcing serious turns and cruising at a gentle pace. We’re all set up for soft snow to return to the mountain with coverage and depth remaining strong across all of our trails. We might not have to wait long either with more weather moving into the Valley tonight and tomorrow with the promise of new snow. The Mountain Operations team will be back out in force tonight with the goal of laying down fresh corduroy on nearly 25 trails before we ring in the day with first chair at 8:30 am tomorrow morning. Be sure to stay tuned to the conditions page tomorrow morning to stay up to date on any changes in the weather."


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## tumbler (Feb 18, 2021)

Encouraging but how was Bush today?  two storm busts this week sucks.  Hoping for upslope from this one...


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 18, 2021)

SB could use a refresher. Conditions today were "firm, with a side of concrete." Groomers skied well, and improved with traffic but definitely way more solid than pre-storm. Woods? Challenging. Rock hard, Nasty crust. Awful. Need either more snow or a string of 50 degree days. I'll take the former.


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## kingslug (Feb 18, 2021)

And I just started exploring the woods at Gore and Belleayre..oh well.


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## JimG. (Feb 18, 2021)

kingslug said:


> And I just started exploring the woods at Gore and Belleayre..oh well.


The naturals and trees at Gore had a thick shiny crust on them today, remarkable because the sun never came out. But you could still clearly see the shine. 

6" of new snow will make things much better there is a ton of snow.


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## Powder Whore (Feb 18, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> SB could use a refresher. Conditions today were "firm, with a side of concrete." Groomers skied well, and improved with traffic but definitely way more solid than pre-storm. Woods? Challenging. Rock hard, Nasty crust. Awful. Need either more snow or a string of 50 degree days. I'll take the former.


I agree with you on the refresh . Im not sure about “concrete or rock hard “ . I found most of Lincoln very skiable in the afternoon today.


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## jaybird (Feb 18, 2021)

2" wafer crust is a tough surface unless you're 200 lbs.

Hope you bottled up the last 6 weeks.
Now .. pray for forgiveness for taking that for granted.


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## kingslug (Feb 19, 2021)

Gore webcam shows...snow. I certainly had fun driving to work in it today..but at least this time no one was doing 80mph.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2021)

it wont be the first time I have done gorilla turns in the crust.  gonna need a whole bunch of upslope today to get the that 6".  Hope we were not jinxed with all the talk yesterday. ;-)


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## machski (Feb 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> it wont be the first time I have done gorilla turns in the crust.  gonna need a whole bunch of upslope today to get the that 6".  Hope we were not jinxed with all the talk yesterday. ;-)


Tim Kelly indicated this morning you could get that at SB by Sunday AM all said.  Hope you do, not much chance for more than an inch or 2 at SR.  Maybe Mon-Tues,


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 19, 2021)

machski said:


> Tim Kelly indicated this morning you could get that at SB by Sunday AM all said.  Hope you do, not much chance for more than an inch or 2 at SR.  Maybe Mon-Tues,



tim, single chair, skiology idiot, and dot gov are all looking pretty ok. fingers crossed.

Mount Ellen, via Dot Gov - 9" on the high end by Sunday.

*Today*
Light snow likely, mainly after noon. Cloudy, with a high near 20. South wind around 11 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. Total daytime snow accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.
*Tonight*
Snow showers likely, mainly before 4am. Cloudy, with a low around 13. Wind chill values as low as -1. South wind 13 to 16 mph becoming northwest after midnight. Chance of precipitation is 60%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 3 inches possible.
*Saturday*
Snow showers likely, mainly after 1pm. Cloudy, with a high near 17. Wind chill values as low as -3. Blustery, with a northwest wind 17 to 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 60%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.
*Saturday Night*
A 50 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 8. Wind chill values as low as -10. Windy, with a northwest wind 24 to 26 mph. New snow accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.


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## mikec142 (Feb 19, 2021)

Hmmmm...maybe not such a good decision to skip this weekend.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 19, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Hmmmm...maybe not such a good decision to skip this weekend.


Love the sounds of that weather report! However, sitting here at my computer and looking out my window here in Waitsfield, not a flake has fallen so thinking another 1 to 2 is not likely before sunset. Hope I’m wrong. Was going to ride today but chose to work instead. Thinking snowboards will rule off piste this weekend, we’ll break up that crust for ya’s!


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Love the sounds of that weather report! However, sitting here at my computer and looking out my window here in Waitsfield, not a flake has fallen so thinking another 1 to 2 is not likely before sunset. Hope I’m wrong. Was going to ride today but chose to work instead. Thinking snowboards will rule off piste this weekend, we’ll break up that crust for ya’s!


I'm questioning that additional 1-2 today as well. No flakes falling in Warren, although I still think I'll head out in a bit for a few runs this afternoon once I finish up work.


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## jaybird (Feb 19, 2021)

Centimeters more likely.


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## WinS (Feb 19, 2021)

It was a solid inch plus at first tracks this am and only did 8 runs on the groomers which we very pleasant, especially Ripcord. Birdland. Lower Grinder and Birch. Crusty elsewhere. I did hear one Blazer coach commenting that the Lower woods we’re Ok but no first hand experience. Early runs on the groomers tomorrow will be very nice and this new snow from last night and a bit more later mix in nicely. But, we do need at least 3-6” fit the woods to me fun again.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 19, 2021)

Still Flakeless in Fayston


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 19, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Still Flakeless in Fayston



the radar has had snow basically up to ludlow all day and nothing north of. stratton web cams have snow. hopefully it punches north this afternoon and evening.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the radar has had snow basically up to ludlow all day and nothing north of. stratton web cams have snow. hopefully it punches north this afternoon and evening.


still on the computer, just noticed it is flurries out there now.... hope that means snow's coming as promised!


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2021)

Started snowing lightly at Lincoln Peak around 2PM. Maybe my expectations were set too low today, but I was pleasantly surprised this afternoon when I went out. Middle Earth was much better than I expected (and has bumped up a decent amount already). Ripcord was actually still nice this afternoon with very few slick spots. Usually I avoid that trail in the afternoon. Organgrinder had a surprising amount of soft snow on the bumps... I think the natural/ungroomed trails lower down may be a bit firmer than we would like though (only skied Lower Domino down low in terms of natural terrain and I didn't care for it that much...firmed up quite a bit since I last skied it on Monday). Overall the skiing is certainly "louder" now, but simply a more typical New England ski experience and still much better than what we've had at times other years. I didn't venture into the woods, although I did see quite a few others going in some of the more well known places.

Here's a few photos from Middle Earth and Organgrinder:
View attachment DSC_0786a.jpg
View attachment DSC_0795a.jpg
View attachment DSC_0803a.jpg

(I have no idea why sometimes my images display inline just fine and other times they only show as clickable attachments...I upload them the same way each time. Maybe something with the image sizes since they're from my regular camera).


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 20, 2021)

Having low expectations results in good times. First chair on castle rock helps


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 20, 2021)

better than just ok!


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## WWF-VT (Feb 20, 2021)

Better than expected at Mt Ellen today.  Skiing is fun !


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 20, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Better than expected at Mt Ellen today.  Skiing is fun !


There was fun to be had today


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2021)

I'm sorry but I guess I was spoiled.  Yes this weekend was OK but not even close to the last 6 weeks.  I guess I will take it all things considered.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Started snowing lightly at Lincoln Peak around 2PM. Maybe my expectations were set too low today, but I was pleasantly surprised this afternoon when I went out. Middle Earth was much better than I expected (and has bumped up a decent amount already). Ripcord was actually still nice this afternoon with very few slick spots. Usually I avoid that trail in the afternoon. Organgrinder had a surprising amount of soft snow on the bumps... I think the natural/ungroomed trails lower down may be a bit firmer than we would like though (only skied Lower Domino down low in terms of natural terrain and I didn't care for it that much...firmed up quite a bit since I last skied it on Monday). Overall the skiing is certainly "louder" now, but simply a more typical New England ski experience and still much better than what we've had at times other years. I didn't venture into the woods, although I did see quite a few others going in some of the more well known places.
> 
> Here's a few photos from Middle Earth and Organgrinder:
> View attachment 50423
> ...


CD, I have to ask.  Was that you walking through the Trailside II/Village Run parking lot at around 4 on Friday afternoon?  If so that us me and my Wife you stopped ;to talk to.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I'm sorry but I guess I was spoiled.  Yes this weekend was OK but not even close to the last 6 weeks.  I guess I will take it all things considered.


The past 6 weeks were incredible. But considering the doom and gloom midweek yesterday was a big win. At magic now and the crust layer is much more pronounced, even with the larger deposit of new snow.

it’s like we went from having a western snowpack, and now have a better than average eastern one

I’ll take it for now, but more snow would be cool


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> CD, I have to ask.  Was that you walking through the Trailside II/Village Run parking lot at around 4 on Friday afternoon?  If so that us me and my Wife you stopped ;to talk to.



Very good possibility. I did walk through there around that time on my way back to my condo and I did talk briefly with a couple. I had black pants, blue jacket, grey helmet, and a backpack...

That's pretty funny. I didn't even realize you were right next door basically if so.



Hawk said:


> I'm sorry but I guess I was spoiled.  Yes this weekend was OK but not even close to the last 6 weeks.  I guess I will take it all things considered.



Definitely not close to the last 6 weeks, but still much better than I expected given the way some people were talking earlier in the week. And I'd still say conditions and coverage are better than in your average season.


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2021)

Yup that was us.  Nice to meet you Neighbor.

Went to MRG today.  I love the vibe over there on Sundays.  Actually I have to agree with Kusty.  All things considered it is pretty good and could have been a whole lot worse with just a few added degrees this week.  I guess count our blessings.


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## tumbler (Feb 22, 2021)

Kusty hit it right- low expectations=good time.  You don't know if you don't go.  Had a good weekend and far exceeded my expectations.


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2021)

Skiing the open woods was tricky this weekend if it was not tracked up a little.  Crust was breakable but better up high.  I bet there were some injuries.  Saw a few.
My expectations were 100 accurate and what I skied was what I expected.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 22, 2021)

Eagan's Woods was excellent this weekend. Once you got through the first 3 turns the snow got soft, not a lot of crust, well exceeded expectations.


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## JEEPSKIBUM (Feb 22, 2021)

Looking for some April suggestions.. 

Do you think Sugarbush will be running lifts mid week around April 20th?    If so, what's typically open then?  Would Gate House be open still?  How about groomed blues for kids?  Wishful thinking....... Should I hold off on booking until April?


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2021)

JEEPSKIBUM said:


> Looking for some April suggestions..
> 
> Do you think Sugarbush will be running lifts mid week around April 20th?    If so, what's typically open then?  Would Gate House be open still?  How about groomed blues for kids?  Wishful thinking....... Should I hold off on booking until April?



That's tricky. Usually only the last week of April is when they stop mid-week operations and go to weekends only, but who knows this year. Doubtful Gate House would be still open at that point. Those trails are more southerly facing and melt out quicker in April. Most years you have somewhere between 15 and 30 trails still open at that point (off Super Bravo, Valley House, and Heaven's Gate). They do still groom a few routes, but if the weather is warm even the groomed blues will bump up quickly at that point in the season as the day goes on).


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2021)

Typically we are down to just Bravo or Valley house by then.  I would bet on only Steins, snowball and Spring fling unless we get a ton more snow and temps stay cold.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Eagan's Woods was excellent this weekend. Once you got through the first 3 turns the snow got soft, not a lot of crust, well exceeded expectations.



i had good skiing in all of the woods off of north ridge at ellen, egan's woods, grotto, eden, lews>birch. it all skied much better than expected.

somehow this was the first time I've ever actually rode the slidebrook chair. which was super useful in avoiding peak lincoln peak times. 

heavens gate 8-9
castlerock 9-10:30
one nasty line at gate house at 10:30 to get to slide brook
mount ellen 11-1
super bravo/valley house - 1-3

perfect.

i also never quite realized that you could take the slide brook traverse from north lynx, hike up a small hill on the slide brook liftline, and then have a pretty nice and steep ski back down to slidebrook chair, so there's a route that doesn't put you all the way down at the road. good to know. snow looked tasty there and had a few tracks.


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## keyser soze (Feb 22, 2021)

JEEPSKIBUM said:


> Looking for some April suggestions..
> 
> Do you think Sugarbush will be running lifts mid week around April 20th?    If so, what's typically open then?  Would Gate House be open still?  How about groomed blues for kids?  Wishful thinking....... Should I hold off on booking until April?


Killington should have a bit open then and their spring pass is on sale now for $250, so cost is good if more than a few days,  Price holds until March 14th so you have time to see what conditions are like then.


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## JEEPSKIBUM (Feb 22, 2021)

I'm Ikonic so I can ski at both but the Sugarbush scenario seems a little more feasible for me assuming conditions are ok.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 23, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> There was fun to be had todayView attachment 50434


----------



## jaybird (Feb 23, 2021)

The grooming fleet has done a fine job this season. Yes, they HAVE had abundant material to work with, but the lines they leave are very tidy .. no ugly lapped edges and few death cookies.
Thanks to Dan and Team 

The sleet accumulation last week set up interestingly in the LP woods. Despite the drizzle last week, the crust layer was easy to break up, making for a continuation of the best string of woods skiing weeks in quite a long time. 

We're on the edge of this next thaw.
Praying things remain superb.


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## ss20 (Feb 23, 2021)

Quiet storm cycle coming up for Northern VT this week...3" yesterday, another couple inches tonight, same for tomorrow night.  Quiet refreshes are my favorite.  You get 1 foot of snow in a big, well-known storm and it's scraped/chopped to nothing in a day.  A few inches getting packed each day is the way to go.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2021)

quiet constant refreshes is the best. excellent conditions, no hype crowds, safe driving.

i am in waitsfield, same house i rented in December, from this Sunday thru March 9. hoping our good fortune continues. i am a bit wary of sunday/monday timeframe as of now.


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## ss20 (Feb 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> quiet constant refreshes is the best. excellent conditions, no hype crowds, safe driving.
> 
> i am in waitsfield, same house i rented in December, from this Sunday thru March 9. hoping our good fortune continues. i am a bit wary of sunday/monday timeframe as of now.



It's also crazy to me how you can get 4" of upslope from a 2"-4" forecast and crowds will be dead, but you put 6" in the forecast from a true "storm" and the resort will be packed should it actually happen.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It's also crazy to me how you can get 4" of upslope from a 2"-4" forecast and crowds will be dead, but you put 6" in the forecast from a true "storm" and the resort will be packed should it actually happen.



A lot of times the resort will be packed even if it DOESN'T actually happen in your latter scenario.


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## mikec142 (Feb 23, 2021)

Concerned about Saturday into Sunday...skipped last weekend with the hopes that this weekend would be better...


----------



## kingslug (Feb 23, 2021)

Well..its only Tuesday..I don't look that far ahead anymore..shit changes.


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## WinS (Feb 23, 2021)

JEEPSKIBUM said:


> Looking for some April suggestions..
> 
> Do you think Sugarbush will be running lifts mid week around April 20th?    If so, what's typically open then?  Would Gate House be open still?  How about groomed blues for kids?  Wishful thinking....... Should I hold off on booking until April


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## WinS (Feb 23, 2021)

The plan is to be open every day through April 25th I believe, and to reopen the next weekend for a final two days.  (Maybe golf too). By the end of April Gatehouse pod will be closed. If there is adequate snowpack both Bravo and Heaven’s Gate could be running with grooming on trails like Jester, Snowball and Spring Fling. However, by that time of year it could just be Valley House lift with Stein‘s and a groomed Upper Snowball and Spring Fling. However,  every year is different so one can not predictat this point.


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## JEEPSKIBUM (Feb 23, 2021)

WinS said:


> The plan is to be open every day through April 25th I believe, and to reopen the next weekend for a final two days.  (Maybe golf too). By the end of April Gatehouse pod will be closed. If there is adequate snowpack both Bravo and Heaven’s Gate could be running with grooming on trails like Jester, Snowball and Spring Fling. However, by that time of year it could just be Valley House lift with Stein‘s and a groomed Upper Snowball and Spring Fling. However,  every year is different so one can not predictat this point.


Thanks!  That gives me to confidence to book provided I think there will be coverage.  I was more concerned with booking and then finding it the hill is closed M-F that week.  Ill probably wait a couple weeks but it's a start.


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## ss20 (Feb 24, 2021)

Beautiful day out there today.  Spent the day lapping Castlerock and Heaven's Gate.  Opened with an inch or so for first tracks on Middle Earth.  Everything in CR is well-covered save for the top 1/4 of Rumble and the nastier sections of liftline.  The fresh snow quickly turned to sticky mashed potatoes everywhere but the top 1/4 of the mountain due to the sunshine and temps in the mid 30s.  But the coating of snow was so light it didn't effect things much once it was skied in.  My favorite run of the day was dropping into Paradise woods....quite a special place in there.  I skied on to CR chair all day, no wait.  Same at Heaven's Gate.  Surprising given we're at peak season and everything is open.  After noon the clouds rolled in and the snow un-stickified itself with the cooler temps...it never froze luckily, just dried out a bit so that was nice.

I do have a question from today...are those chutes that drop into Paradise cut?  Or are/were they slide paths?  I know they're not THAT steep but maybe 50 years ago before skiers were packing it down I could see some small slides forming up there if they are indeed natural openings.  

It is plain rain now (and heavy too) at the base but MRG and SB webcams showing steady snow mid-mountain and up.  Not sure what to expect tomorrow.


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## cdskier (Feb 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It is plain rain now (and heavy too) at the base but MRG and SB webcams showing steady snow mid-mountain and up.  Not sure what to expect tomorrow.



I didn't even hear/see it. Was it only for a short time? Just stepped out on my deck and it didn't seem to be doing much of anything now.


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## WinS (Feb 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Beautiful day out there today.  Spent the day lapping Castlerock and Heaven's Gate.  Opened with an inch or so for first tracks on Middle Earth.  Everything in CR is well-covered save for the top 1/4 of Rumble and the nastier sections of liftline.  The fresh snow quickly turned to sticky mashed potatoes everywhere but the top 1/4 of the mountain due to the sunshine and temps in the mid 30s.  But the coating of snow was so light it didn't effect things much once it was skied in.  My favorite run of the day was dropping into Paradise woods....quite a special place in there.  I skied on to CR chair all day, no wait.  Same at Heaven's Gate.  Surprising given we're at peak season and everything is open.  After noon the clouds rolled in and the snow un-stickified itself with the cooler temps...it never froze luckily, just dried out a bit so that was nice.
> 
> I do have a question from today...are those chutes that drop into Paradise cut?  Or are/were they slide paths?  I know they're not THAT steep but maybe 50 years ago before skiers were packing it down I could see some small slides forming up there if they are indeed natural openings.
> 
> It is plain rain now (and heavy too) at the base but MRG and SB webcams showing steady snow mid-mountain and up.  Not sure what to expect tomorrow.


No they were not cut unless someone did it unnoticed which I doubt. It you look at older photos it was actually more open in the early days of Sugarbush. But protecting this upper mountain habitat is important, so please be respectful or the USFS will shut it down.


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## ss20 (Feb 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I didn't even hear/see it. Was it only for a short time? Just stepped out on my deck and it didn't seem to be doing much of anything now.



Yes, about 20 minutes maybe.


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 24, 2021)

WinS said:


> No they were not cut unless someone did it unnoticed which I doubt. It you look at older photos it was actually more open in the early days of Sugarbush. But protecting this upper mountain habitat is important, so please be respectful or the USFS will shut it down.


There actually is a slide from 4 or 5 years ago called Paradise Lost by some people.  It is a nice run that puts you on the bottom of The Bear/Supper Chute.  Problem is a couple of trees fell over on the route to the slide, the last of which you had to either climb over or crawl under, a real pain in the ass.  I haven't been over there this year so I don't know if anyone has dealt with the trees.


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2021)

To be clear the paradise slide was a mud/dirt slide and not a snow slide that cleared it.  Much like the big slide below Cutts Peak above slide brook.  I think Bear is the only route that has seen some minor maintenance.  Blow downs and such.  The rest is naturally occurring in my opinion.


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## 1dog (Feb 25, 2021)

shipyardcreek said:


> There actually is a slide from 4 or 5 years ago called Paradise Lost by some people.  It is a nice run that puts you on the bottom of The Bear/Supper Chute.  Problem is a couple of trees fell over on the route to the slide, the last of which you had to either climb over or crawl under, a real pain in the ass.  I haven't been over there this year so I don't know if anyone has dealt with the trees.


am I being selfish by regretting this whole string of ( relatively) unknown woods stashes. 25 years after I started exploring there are a lot more chowder runs than powder runs. Aaah, its NIMBY I guess. Pushes the rest of us to further out places unknown. . . .as a diversion though, check out this post from VT Digger on ' The Way We Were'.








						Stratton town report cover draws attention for all the wrong reasons
					

‘I apologize to anyone who was offended or affected by it,’ the town clerk says. ‘It was definitely a stupid decision. I just didn’t think it through.’



					vtdigger.org


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## tumbler (Feb 25, 2021)

Yikes.  That was a big mistake.  I also think there are the folks that move up and do not want anything to change so they get on the town boards and vote no on almost all development to preserve the quaintness but are stifling the economic growth.  Ex: Farmers that can't sell their land because they won't allow houses to built on them.  The worst one that I can quickly recall was Green Mountain Coffee Roasters getting rejected to expand in Waitsfield and moving to Waterbury.  All that tax money...missed


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2021)

No 1dog, it is not selfish.  For years the commonly know policy was to earn it yourself or have a friend show you.  I always cringe when I see posts giving details.  I personally will never give out details except to people I trust and know can ski.  Powder skiing is a very finite thing and goes quicker than ever.  I truly can not understand how people can be so inclusive that they have to give it out to everyone.  I guess that is another reason why social media has ruined everything.  It ruins the thing that you love to do.  So Silly.  Maybe people are just lazy now and don't want to earn it?  For those of us that have been skiing Sugarbush for more that 15 or 20 years, it has totally changed.  When I tell people that there might have been 20 people that skied slidebrook regularly when I first came here, I get total disbelief.  The genie is out of the bottle now.  But I will still never tell anybody anything.  ;-)
Streetskier knows what I am talking about.  He ran into me years ago and asked me how I found the place I was skiing.  I said "follow your nose".  He skied off without saying anything.  LOL


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 25, 2021)

Hawk said:


> No 1dog, it is not selfish.  For years the commonly know policy was to earn it yourself or have a friend show you.  I always cringe when I see posts giving details.  I personally will never give out details except to people I trust and know can ski.  Powder skiing is a very finite thing and goes quicker than ever.  I truly can not understand how people can be so inclusive that they have to give it out to everyone.  I guess that is another reason why social media has ruined everything.  It ruins the thing that you love to do.  So Silly.  Maybe people are just lazy now and don't want to earn it?  For those of us that have been skiing Sugarbush for more that 15 or 20 years, it has totally changed.  When I tell people that there might have been 20 people that skied slidebrook regularly when I first came here, I get total disbelief.  The genie is out of the bottle now.  But I will still never tell anybody anything.  ;-)
> Streetskier knows what I am talking about.  He ran into me years ago and asked me how I found the place I was skiing.  I said "follow your nose".  He skied off without saying anything.  LOL


The slide area (Hawk is correct it was a summer time mud slide) I mentioned was on this message board right after it happened.  Anyway, it is visible from the HG lift so it is hardly anyone's secret powder stash.  I did not say how to get to it.  The trees I mentioned were not cut down but fell over due to natural causes.  To clear them out of the way you would need a large chain saw or a lot of chopping with a large axe.


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## Hawk (Feb 25, 2021)

Shipyard I was not talking about your post.  That is very much inbounds and well known.  I was speaking more in general terms across all social media.


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## shipyardcreek (Feb 25, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Shipyard I was not talking about your post.  That is very much inbounds and well known.  I was speaking more in general terms across all social media.


Sorry to misunderstand.  While I know almost every inbounds run and most in Slide Brook, I cannot divulge any of the runs you are concerned about as I do not know the location of any BC runs except for Brandon Gap, which was written up in the NYT.


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## flakeydog (Feb 25, 2021)

1dog said:


> Stratton town report cover draws attention for all the wrong reasons
> 
> 
> ‘I apologize to anyone who was offended or affected by it,’ the town clerk says. ‘It was definitely a stupid decision. I just didn’t think it through.’
> ...


Oops- I guess they said the quite part out loud.  Though as someone that is from "here", i would object to two points in this verse...  First, people have a lot of reasons for coming here, not just because they did not like it back where they came from.  There are a thousand other reasons why people end up here.  Thats kind of what makes "here" special.  I have had so many great conversations that started with "so how did you end up here in Vermont?"  Second, the idea that we all just want things to stay the same and never change is off the mark.  We are not as folksy and old-timey as the passage suggests.  Those of us that live, work and raise families here want to see growth and prosperity, just in a controlled and sustainable fashion.

But this was supposed to be about skiing...  there was a time when you could not ski in the woods, you could get your pass yanked (crazy, right? You had to go to Mad River for that). People skied the woods anyway and eventually it became embraced by the industry.  A lot more terrain was in play but with that came many more of us in the woods.  On top of that, interest level increased and exploration into every part of the mountain exploded.  It is part of the evolution of skiing.  As an extension of that, people are now seeking out destinations beyond ski mountains.  Social media is a blessing and curse in this.  The increased flow of information helps us find new opportunities and share those experiences but we all want to be the last one in before we lock the door.  Oversharing can be the death of special places but we can also use social media to educate participants and preserve these areas.  I agree we should not share our secret stashes on forums like these but I am never surprised if I see a set of tracks when I get there.  Hopefully that person had the same thrill in discovering a "secret stash" as those that came before.


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## flakeydog (Feb 25, 2021)

Found this out there in internet-land.  Guess who in VT?
The Longest Lift-Serviced Vertical In Each State (True-Up Vertical) | Unofficial Networks


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2021)

without clicking first - i think mount ellen has the longest continuous vertical in Vermont. we are also in the sugarbush thread.

slidebrook is the longest chairlift in the world, I'm pretty sure?


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## mikec142 (Feb 25, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Found this out there in internet-land.  Guess who in VT?
> The Longest Lift-Serviced Vertical In Each State (True-Up Vertical) | Unofficial Networks


I thought Killington was over 3k?  Or so it says on their website.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I thought Killington was over 3k?  Or so it says on their website.



killingtons 3k is marketing bullshit, and that site is tracking true vertical, like an actual top to bottom run. to get the 3k at killington you need to go from the top of killington peak to the bottom of the skyeship and its a weird run with a lot of connector nonsense happening. killington is truly a bunch of 1000-1500 foot pods.


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## mikec142 (Feb 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killingtons 3k is marketing bullshit, and that site is tracking true vertical, like an actual top to bottom run. to get the 3k at killington you need to go from the top of killington peak to the bottom of the skyeship and its a weird run with a lot of connector nonsense happening. killington is truly a bunch of 1000-1500 foot pods.


Interesting.  Oddly enough, I've never skied K.  Skied pretty much all of Southern VT and most of Northern VT, but of the bigger places have somehow missed K and Jay.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Interesting.  Oddly enough, I've never skied K.  Skied pretty much all of Southern VT and most of Northern VT, but of the bigger places have somehow missed K and Jay.



yea, K is sort of comparable to Sunday River, but SR is even more pod-esque. super spread out/wide on the trail map. not so much size t2b.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2021)

the sugarbush vert is also probably even bigger if you were to count slide brook runout as the low point


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2021)

shipyardcreek said:


> There actually is a slide from 4 or 5 years ago called Paradise Lost by some people.  It is a nice run that puts you on the bottom of The Bear/Supper Chute.  Problem is a couple of trees fell over on the route to the slide, the last of which you had to either climb over or crawl under, a real pain in the ass.  I haven't been over there this year so I don't know if anyone has dealt with the trees.


When trees come down, the USFS wants them left as is unless on a trail.


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the sugarbush vert is also probably even bigger if you were to count slide brook runout as the low point


That is correct. But there is no lift, so it does not count officially.


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> without clicking first - i think mount ellen has the longest continuous vertical in Vermont. we are also in the sugarbush thread.
> 
> slidebrook is the longest chairlift in the world, I'm pretty sure?


I think the answer to both is “yes”


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2021)

shipyardcreek said:


> The slide area (Hawk is correct it was a summer time mud slide) I mentioned was on this message board right after it happened.  Anyway, it is visible from the HG lift so it is hardly anyone's secret powder stash.  I did not say how to get to it.  The trees I mentioned were not cut down but fell over due to natural causes.  To clear them out of the way you would need a large chain saw or a lot of chopping with a large axe.


If anyone cuts, it jeapordizes Sugarbush’s open wood policy. The USFS owns the land and does not accept unapproved cutting. They are very serious about this.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 25, 2021)

Conditions were great today.  there was more than the inch reported.


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## Hawk (Feb 26, 2021)

The maintenance I was referring to was many years ago.  I think people don't cross the line anymore because of what happened to those guys at Jay Peak.  I was in no way condoning cutting in the nation forest.  Sorry.


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## ss20 (Feb 26, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Conditions were great today.  there was more than the inch reported.



Yes, Thursday up high was awesome.  I made lots of first tracks through Exterminator woods.  Awesome day at Mt Ellen for me.  Today I did both peaks and took the Slidebrook for the first time (despite being to SB 20-25 times).  Sunshine was beautiful and I did a full sample hitting what I liked previous days.  Both FIS and Black Diamond Rush (lol) skiing REALLY good with Diamond being the best because of it being sheltered.  Hammerhead was the best I've ever seen it.  Lincoln was more scratchy due to more traffic.  Still really good, but back to typical NE conditions with soft snow stashes and icy troughs in the bumps.  Get Rumble and Liftline while you can in CR, not yet boney but it most certainly will be after this weekend.  The extreme lower Liftline has taken a beating already from the sun...kinda wish they would blow snow up to the 3rd tower of the CR double and the very bottom on Middle Earth when the turn is.  Yes, rocks and dirt are part of the CR experience but covering literally the bottom 50 vertical feet would help a lot of ski bases and extend the season over there a week or so each year, imo.  Great 3 days at SB, hope to to it again real soon.  

FYI, it did indeed rain Wednesday night for a bit down low.  Luckily it's the very very bottom.  Below the Slidebrook/North Ridge load on Ellen and really just the final 100-200 vertical feet on Lincoln.  But it is nasty fyi...death cookies and unedgable ice even after two grooms.  And the transition is pretty much instant from "average" skiing to "f*** is going on?" skiing.


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## hub8 (Feb 27, 2021)

How was condition today at LP or ME?  Went to Loon today as both GFS and European models suggested later  transition to rain, but  transitioned to pellets at 2pm and freezing rain at 3pm.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 27, 2021)

hub8 said:


> How was condition today at LP or ME?  Went to Loon today as both GFS and European models suggested later  transition to rain, but  transitioned to pellets at 2pm and freezing rain at 3pm.


Great.  Changed over after noon.  Ski surface was exceptionally good top to bottom.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 28, 2021)

tis firm out here, but skiable. good exercise these conditions. need a tune up that’s for sure.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> tis firm out here, but skiable. good exercise these conditions. need a tune up that’s for sure.


I skied mt ellen.  top was fine.  FIS and BD good.  ungroomed below not so much.  took a foray into exterminator woods.  That was a mistake.  life preservation.  stick to groomers until there's a resurfacing.


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## CastlerockMRV (Mar 1, 2021)

Saturday was some fantastic skiing if you had gore-tex on! Powder is always preferable, but slush bumps are are just so damn fun too. 

Yesterday was tough - things stayed very firm until after lunch. Got my ass handed to me on Domino headed to Castlerock my first time up and decided to stick to groomers for the morning. Ended up having a few good runs on Castlerock, Middle Earth and Rumble after the temps and ski traffic (thanks guys!) had a chance to do their thing but overheard more than one convo in the courtyard during apres that Organgrinder was actually the choice run of the day. 

Fingers crossed that the single chair weather report is right and this ra*n turns to snow and nets us 4-5 overnight. The tree skiing has been so good lately, hopefully mother nature can keep it going!


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2021)

So fun reading and comparing the SB and MRG snow reports today. If you gave those 2 reports to people without telling them what resorts they were from, most people would probably never guess they're right next to each other.


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2021)

I had a great day on Saturday.  I have a relatively new insulated jacket, but when it snowed or rained, by the middle of the day it was always soggy and heavy.  Even though I didn't NEED it, over the summer I bit on a high end half price gore tex shell.  It's become my go to and basically has replaced the insulated jacket.  It kept me warm and dry on Saturday. Visibility was an issue up high so spent more time than normal on the lower half.  Domino and Moonshine were a ton of fun as was Eden.  By the end of the day, my pants below the knee were heavy with water and there was a ton of heavy slushy snow stuck on top of my boots and skis making them really heavy so I called it a day around 3pm.

What a difference a day makes.  Got there early. Snow report said the naturals/woods/ungroomed were crispy.  So I stayed on the groomers.  Murphy's was actually pretty good as was Ripcord and Upper Jester.  But there was a bunch of groomers that were rock hard.  Spring Fling wasn't very fun.  I felt that I was spending more energy concentrating on surviving then on enjoying myself.  So I called it a day at noon and jumped in the car for the drive home.  Definitely need to sharpen those edges.

HowieT - was gonna take you up on your slidebrook offer.  But had a friend's son with me on Saturday and he wasn't up for it and Sunday was definitely not the day!  Next time.


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## flakeydog (Mar 1, 2021)

Organgrinder _was_ the pick of the day on Sunday, that was a pleasant surprise.  Overall things were pretty good sunday after what transpired on Saturday.  I was expecting a real old fashion "Ski the East" day but I thought things were good, bumps and all.  I think that this was effectively a slow-motion freeze and that helped tremendously.  I am a bit less optimistic for tonight into tomorrow.


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Organgrinder _was_ the pick of the day on Sunday, that was a pleasant surprise.  Overall things were pretty good sunday after what transpired on Saturday.  I was expecting a real old fashion "Ski the East" day but I thought things were good, bumps and all.  I think that this was effectively a slow-motion freeze and that helped tremendously.  I am a bit less optimistic for tonight into tomorrow.


That's awesome!  I skied past the top of OG twice.  I looked down and thought the first 15 yards looked like a sheet of ice.  Then you hit the bumps which actually looked okay, but I assumed they would be firm.  I watched from the lift as a few people did Spillsville and it sounded really scratchy.  So my assumption was that OG would be more of the same.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I had a great day on Saturday.  I have a relatively new insulated jacket, but when it snowed or rained, by the middle of the day it was always soggy and heavy.  Even though I didn't NEED it, over the summer I bit on a high end half price gore tex shell.  It's become my go to and basically has replaced the insulated jacket.  It kept me warm and dry on Saturday. Visibility was an issue up high so spent more time than normal on the lower half.  Domino and Moonshine were a ton of fun as was Eden.  By the end of the day, my pants below the knee were heavy with water and there was a ton of heavy slushy snow stuck on top of my boots and skis making them really heavy so I called it a day around 3pm.
> 
> What a difference a day makes.  Got there early. Snow report said the naturals/woods/ungroomed were crispy.  So I stayed on the groomers.  Murphy's was actually pretty good as was Ripcord and Upper Jester.  But there was a bunch of groomers that were rock hard.  Spring Fling wasn't very fun.  I felt that I was spending more energy concentrating on surviving then on enjoying myself.  So I called it a day at noon and jumped in the car for the drive home.  Definitely need to sharpen those edges.
> 
> HowieT - was gonna take you up on your slidebrook offer.  But had a friend's son with me on Saturday and he wasn't up for it and Sunday was definitely not the day!  Next time.


funny, my son and I did slidebrook around 1ish, brought sandwiches and had lunch in there.


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## Hawk (Mar 1, 2021)

We still need to do that tour we were talking about Howie.  After a refresh we will do that.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> tis firm out here, but skiable. good exercise these conditions. need a tune up that’s for sure.


You covered a lot of ground


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2021)

Hawk said:


> We still need to do that tour we were talking about Howie.  After a refresh we will do that.


I was thinking about doing it sunday which shows what an idiot I am.  what we really need to do also is the route to jerusalem.


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2021)

I’m impressed with all you guys who skied the non-groomers on Sunday.  I stopped at the top of the entrance to Castlerock around 10:30/11am and looked down towards the lift.  Probably watched for a few minutes and didn’t see anyone go up the lift or come down to the lift from one of the trails.  I figured that was a good indicator that it wasn’t for me.  From the HG lift I did see a few people on Paradise.  But not many.


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I’m impressed with all you guys who skied the non-groomers on Sunday.  I stopped at the top of the entrance to Castlerock around 10:30/11am and looked down towards the lift.  Probably watched for a few minutes and didn’t see anyone go up the lift or come down to the lift from one of the trails.  I figured that was a good indicator that it wasn’t for me.  From the HG lift I did see a few people on Paradise.  But not many.


I was much like you on Sunday. I stuck to the groomers and stayed away from the ungroomed. I tested the ungroomed skier's right on Birch shortly after 10:30 and that was enough for me to know I wouldn't enjoy it. I actually did something I rarely do on the weekend and didn't go out first thing yesterday morning. I went out around 10:30 hoping maybe it would have started softening up. Around 1:30 it did seem to start softening up down low a bit in spots and I was almost tempted to check out Deeper Sleeper but ultimately decided against it. It was one of those days where I just wasn't feeling it and didn't want to push myself in questionable conditions. I had some great runs Friday afternoon and Saturday morning.

On the other hand, Friday afternoon was downright beautiful out...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Organgrinder _was_ the pick of the day on Sunday, that was a pleasant surprise.  Overall things were pretty good sunday after what transpired on Saturday.  I was expecting a real old fashion "Ski the East" day but I thought things were good, bumps and all.  I think that this was effectively a slow-motion freeze and that helped tremendously.  I am a bit less optimistic for tonight into tomorrow.



organgrinder was gorgeous on sunday, and early too. i don't understand how. i guess exposure? it was perfect corn bumps. i couldn't find anything else similar anywhere. deeper sleeper and eden also skied pretty well.

so, today i chased. i know, quarantine rules violated and shame on me. setting that aside tho - all intel said saddleback avoided any rain and never got over 32 degrees and was skiing as soft pow sat and sunday. i'm at an airbnb in waitsfield thru next weekend so i figure fuck it, when i am i ONLY 4 hours away from saddleback, a bucket list location that was just added to my indy pass. set the alarm for 4 AM, made breakfast, left at 5 for a 3:45 drive to saddleback. pulled over at 7 to check their 7 AM report "rained in town, snow on the hill, should be a great day but we're watching the wind." ugh. kept going. at 9 i got to a junction that i presumed was my deciding point between loaf and saddleback. checked both sites. all lifts on wind hold, everywhere. went to loaf, figured they had a better chance of getting up and running. got there around 9:30. no lifts. alternating between a fat wet snow and straight up rain. waited about half an hour. no updates. defeated, turned around. got back to waitsfield at 3. apparently they eventually opened super quad.

i am bummed. its snowing in waitsfield now but tmrw gonna be hella cold and the wind will be a problem again.


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## CastlerockMRV (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> so, today i chased. i know, quarantine rules violated and shame on me. setting that aside tho - all intel said saddleback avoided any rain and never got over 32 degrees and was skiing as soft pow sat and sunday. i'm at an airbnb in waitsfield thru next weekend so i figure fuck it, when i am i ONLY 4 hours away from saddleback, a bucket list location that was just added to my indy pass. set the alarm for 4 AM, made breakfast, left at 5 for a 3:45 drive to saddleback. pulled over at 7 to check their 7 AM report "rained in town, snow on the hill, should be a great day but we're watching the wind." ugh. kept going. at 9 i got to a junction that i presumed was my deciding point between loaf and saddleback. checked both sites. all lifts on wind hold, everywhere. went to loaf, figured they had a better chance of getting up and running. got there around 9:30. no lifts. alternating between a fat wet snow and straight up rain. waited about half an hour. no updates. defeated, turned around. got back to waitsfield at 3. apparently they eventually opened super quad.
> 
> i am bummed. its snowing in waitsfield now but tmrw gonna be hella cold and the wind will be a problem again.



That is brutal but I respect the hell out of your hustle. 

Saddleback is on the bucket list for me as well. Also Black Mountain looks like a great time.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2021)

fucking 10 hour drive in a circle to not ski. brutal. and it was like sunny and 40 when i pulled back into waitsfield. i almost rolled up to lincoln peak just to say i skied today, even if it would have been for 40 minutes. but then said no, and came home, and now I'm eating the chicky parm i just cooked.

i left a part of the story out out of pure embarrassment and feeling like tuna - i skidded into a dang snowbank on the way to loaf and needed a tow out. it was a non event. like a real slow 'welp, I'm gonna end up in this snowbank'. a utility worker in a big ass rig came by, pulled me out in two seconds. the whole ordeal was about 10 minutes. it was actually bizarre. no damage, no injury, quickly helped by the first passerby. on my way back out, someone else had skidded out in the exact same spot.

today was an 8 out of 10 bad day. (9 reserved for injury to vehicle, 10 reserved for injury to person).


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I was much like you on Sunday. I stuck to the groomers and stayed away from the ungroomed. I tested the ungroomed skier's right on Birch shortly after 10:30 and that was enough for me to know I wouldn't enjoy it. I actually did something I rarely do on the weekend and didn't go out first thing yesterday morning. I went out around 10:30 hoping maybe it would have started softening up. Around 1:30 it did seem to start softening up down low a bit in spots and I was almost tempted to check out Deeper Sleeper but ultimately decided against it. It was one of those days where I just wasn't feeling it and didn't want to push myself in questionable conditions. I had some great runs Friday afternoon and Saturday morning.
> 
> On the other hand, Friday afternoon was downright beautiful out...
> View attachment 50701
> ...


Gorgeous pix!  The bottom one is bugging me cuz I can’t place where it is.


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## mikec142 (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fucking 10 hour drive in a circle to not ski. brutal. and it was like sunny and 40 when i pulled back into waitsfield. i almost rolled up to lincoln peak just to say i skied today, even if it would have been for 40 minutes. but then said no, and came home, and now I'm eating the chicky parm i just cooked.
> 
> i left a part of the story out out of pure embarrassment and feeling like tuna - i skidded into a dang snowbank on the way to loaf and needed a tow out. it was a non event. like a real slow 'welp, I'm gonna end up in this snowbank'. a utility worker in a big ass rig came by, pulled me out in two seconds. the whole ordeal was about 10 minutes. it was actually bizarre. no damage, no injury, quickly helped by the first passerby. on my way back out, someone else had skidded out in the exact same spot.
> 
> today was an 8 out of 10 bad day. (9 reserved for injury to vehicle, 10 reserved for injury to person).


I’m impressed.  Btw the full day on Sunday and then 10 hours in the car today.  Hardcore!


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Gorgeous pix!  The bottom one is bugging me cuz I can’t place where it is.


Thanks. It was easy to take great photos on Friday afternoon. Both were from Paradise. The views were just perfect up there.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fucking 10 hour drive in a circle to not ski. brutal. and it was like sunny and 40 when i pulled back into waitsfield. i almost rolled up to lincoln peak just to say i skied today, even if it would have been for 40 minutes. but then said no, and came home, and now I'm eating the chicky parm i just cooked.
> 
> i left a part of the story out out of pure embarrassment and feeling like tuna - i skidded into a dang snowbank on the way to loaf and needed a tow out. it was a non event. like a real slow 'welp, I'm gonna end up in this snowbank'. a utility worker in a big ass rig came by, pulled me out in two seconds. the whole ordeal was about 10 minutes. it was actually bizarre. no damage, no injury, quickly helped by the first passerby. on my way back out, someone else had skidded out in the exact same spot.
> 
> today was an 8 out of 10 bad day. (9 reserved for injury to vehicle, 10 reserved for injury to person).


I’ve had this debate with my family.  I say, no injury/no damage, it’s not an accident.  No harm, no foul.  They say otherwise.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I’ve had this debate with my family.  I say, no injury/no damage, it’s not an accident.  No harm, no foul.  They say otherwise.



it was an “incident” at most


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I’m impressed.  Btw the full day on Sunday and then 10 hours in the car today.  Hardcore!



I also left nyc at 4 am on Friday night and skied magic from first chair to 230 on Saturday in the snow>rain>fog and then drove up to waitsfield from there. But who’s counting


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2021)

Hope this keeps up and I don't jinx anything, but it is absolutely dumping here on the mountain now.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Hope this keeps up and I don't jinx anything, but it is absolutely dumping here on the mountain now.



2” on the stake

I’m chatting to a buddy and I just said moments ago;

“2” on top of brutal ice pack. if we can get 4” maybe we got a stew goin. I’ll wake up at 3 am and check and be disappointed”

LoL

the wind at the summit is evident. nothing can stay on the plate. the mid mountain stake is stacking. almost 3" now.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it was an “incident” at most


That’s what I’m talking ‘bout.


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> 2” on the stake
> 
> I’m chatting to a buddy and I just said moments ago;
> 
> ...


Good luck getting any sort of remotely accurate measurement from this! Wind is really picking up even down at the base now. Wonder how much will actually manage to stay on the trails. That temp dropped fast tonight. Unless this snow managed to bond to it while it was freezing, it is going to be pretty solid underneath.


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## kingslug (Mar 2, 2021)

The Stowe report : I would sit that out for sure
Today's forecast calls for a windy day with isolated snow showers, a Hazardous Weather Outlook and Wind Chill Advisory are in effect. Temps -14 degrees up top and -3 degrees at the base this morning, forecast to rise to 5 degrees up top and 7 degrees at the base by noon. Northwest winds at 40 to 55 mph at the summit, with gusts up to 70 mph. Wind chill values as low as -40 degrees this morning, so bundle up and think twice Stowefamily if you plan to join us for first chair.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2021)

so far i am firmly watching tv in bed, but i think i will venture out around lunch time and try a run or two. 4" reported. mad reported 5". im cautiously optimistic about snow surfaces and i will wear every article of clothing in this house. just realized i left my wool beanie somewhere, so i'll be shopping for a new one wearing a ski balaclava and my baseball hat. gotta pick skis up from a tune at vt north anyway, and i assume they have a new beanie for me.

the mid mountain stake was holding the snow at 9 pm, but by 10 the whole pile basically had blown away

**


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## kingslug (Mar 2, 2021)

sporty day......


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## crank (Mar 2, 2021)

Top of Organgrinder was good but lower grinder was frozen solid Sunday. We ventured out of the conndo around 1 yesterday iafter the rain.  Snow was actually ok on groomers and lower mountain bumps had softened.  

Hanging in again this morning.  May go for a snowshoe walk.  Possibly make some runs this afternoon...cold and windy out for sure.


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## tumbler (Mar 2, 2021)

Pretty much everything on wind hold except CR.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2021)

yikes. so hiking to castlerock is the only option. NO THANKS.

if they get valley house open later i will go out.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yikes. so hiking to castlerock is the only option. NO THANKS.
> 
> if they get valley house open later i will go out.



I'm surprised...you're one of the few people I would have expected to be up for a hike to the CR lift.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2021)

im all the way down in the valley and the wind is pummeling this house. just doesnt sound super pleasant. the 4-5" will be there tomorrow, blown around, but there. today seems a very reasonable day to not ski. im mostly annoyed with myself for wasting yesterday. i should have gone to maine sunday and slush skied sugarbush yesterday. oh well. first world problems.

its only 9 am. we'll see where the day goes. hope is valley house laps by like 1 or 2. if that doesnt happen, thats fine.

castlerock is on maintenance hold. officially no real skiing to be skied over there at the moment.


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## ss20 (Mar 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm surprised...you're one of the few people I would have expected to be up for a hike to the CR lift.



Yeah really, sounds like a wet dream to me lol.  4" of windblown pow for you and probably a couple dozen people tops.  The hike is probably easier and shorter than the long trail hike-in during the early season before the chair is spinning.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2021)

im not opposed to the thought of hiking up the runout. that's easy. its the wind and the cold. but castlerock is also down now. i will go out later if things open.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yeah really, sounds like a wet dream to me lol.  4" of windblown pow for you and probably a couple dozen people tops.  The hike is probably easier and shorter than the long trail hike-in during the early season before the chair is spinning.



Irrelevant at least for now as CR is on a maintenance delay. So basically right now you can lap the terrain park at ME or the Village Quad and bunny slope at LP...


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## jaybird (Mar 2, 2021)

Amazing that we still have power .. 
They're going to need to sharpen the tiller blades ..


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Mar 2, 2021)

Not a scientific assessment but the winds didn't seem to be coming from a consistent direction last night so will be interesting to see if it's piling up in all the usual spots or not. With no ski traffic today, tomorrow could be a very good day in a few areas.......or straight up survival skiing. Hopefully they do a deep groom tonight.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2021)

groomers early AM = great
steep natural/bump runs = terrible
mellow natural/bump runs = tolerable
low angle woods = surprisingly pretty dang good

i did a one hour work zoom in my car in the mount ellen lot. going to 4 today, making up for the past two days of nonsense



Paradise chutes and woods next to spillsville skiing legit good. That’s great. I almost didn’t even bother coming up heavens gate and I’m glad I did.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 3, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> groomers early AM = great
> steep natural/bump runs = terrible
> mellow natural/bump runs = tolerable
> low angle woods = surprisingly pretty dang good
> ...


mtn reporting 9" sunday overnight until today.  more in the forecast.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2021)

full 8 AM - 4 PM day with a stop to take a work call. 40,000 vertical. good snow in the high woods! ended the day on paradise chutes, and the off map woods right of spillsville and right of organgrinder, and then back over to ellen for bravo woods and exterminator woods - its good in the woods! the steep/bumpy trails are not very good. at least at mount ellen. i didn't really try the trails at lincoln peak, all woods. will venture to castlerock tmrw but i expect it to be similar to the mount ellen steeps with bumps. not enough soft snow covering giant ice moguls. all in all tho, a really good day. 40k feet makes up for yesterday.

do the off map woods i am describing have names?


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## shipyardcreek (Mar 3, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> full 8 AM - 4 PM day with a stop to take a work call. 40,000 vertical. good snow in the high woods! ended the day on paradise chutes, and the off map woods right of spillsville and right of organgrinder, and then back over to ellen for bravo woods and exterminator woods - its good in the woods! the steep/bumpy trails are not very good. at least at mount ellen. i didn't really try the trails at lincoln peak, all woods. will venture to castlerock tmrw but i expect it to be similar to the mount ellen steeps with bumps. not enough soft snow covering giant ice moguls. all in all tho, a really good day. 40k feet makes up for yesterday.
> 
> do the off map woods i am describing have names?


To the right of Spills is Hewey's (spelling may be off) and to right of OG is Hi-Way 22.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2021)

gorgeous day out here. woods are skiing really well. alleged snow tonight. pretty damn well recovered from sunday


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## mikec142 (Mar 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> gorgeous day out here. woods are skiing really well. alleged snow tonight. pretty damn well recovered from sunday


Very happy to hear that.  Not gonna make it up this weekend unfortunately.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2021)

It’s a tree tour of Lincoln Peak today. Hit every on map glade except deeper sleeper. Off map glades off spills, og, castlerock run, and middle earth. I found the poop chute and it’s super fun. Got a few more laps in my legs, heading to rumble now


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## HowieT2 (Mar 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> It’s a tree tour of Lincoln Peak today. Hit every on map glade except deeper sleeper. Off map glades off spills, og, castlerock run, and middle earth.* I found the poop chute and it’s super fun.* Got a few more laps in my legs, heading to rumble now


If I didnt know what you were referring to, I'd say that's inappropriate for a public forum.


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2021)

Greg was a really cool guy.  I miss seeing him and his son out there.  I would run into them in slidebrook all the time.  I am sure most on here did not know him.  Maybe a few of the old-timers.


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## Hawk (Mar 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> It’s a tree tour of Lincoln Peak today. Hit every on map glade except deeper sleeper. Off map glades off spills, og, castlerock run, and middle earth. I found the poop chute and it’s super fun. Got a few more laps in my legs, heading to rumble now


Good catch Kusty.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Good catch Kusty.



i had read some very scary write ups of the poopchute, maybe on strava, with mandatory airs and things mentioned. i found no mandatory airs. i found very nice steep multiple option tree chutes with excellent snow.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2021)

hedging against the wind, i just used a visa gift card to buy a mad river glen ticket for tomorrow.

heavens gate went down around 12 and never came back on today. tmrw is more windier. mrg ran both chairs all day on Tuesday, so i think I'll be ok. i have been to mrg one time when they could only run the double. there were some epic hike to midstation laps.


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## TSQURD (Mar 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i had read some very scary write ups of the poopchute, maybe on strava, with mandatory airs and things mentioned. i found no mandatory airs. i found very nice steep multiple option tree chutes with excellent snow.


Perhaps you're thinking of Church? You definitely make the most out of the day, that's a lot of skiing. I agree the woods are skiing better than anything else right now, but im missing the conditions from a few weeks ago.  Didn't get out till late after HG was shut down so I cant speak for the stuff up there, but found the woods a variable mix of wind packed, crust, ice and a little powder.  None of the woods I skied today have had much traffic since last weekends warm up though.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 4, 2021)

Nah, I know the Church, have dropped in sort of along the side of it once. Whatever I read about Poop Chute was overdramatized


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i had read some very scary write ups of the poopchute, maybe on strava, with mandatory airs and things mentioned. i found no mandatory airs. i found very nice steep multiple option tree chutes with excellent snow.


 The only place you can cliff out is if you fade right.  Actually this year it is skiing harder. There was a big blow down near the top and things have grown a  little.  if you like it now you would have loved it a couple or years back.  it is much tighter now.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2021)

Looking at the trail reports for both Stowe and SB. Stowe has everything good closed..SB everything open. Can't wait until next season when I get an Ikon pass and hit SB more.


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## mikec142 (Mar 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i had read some very scary write ups of the poopchute, maybe on strava, with mandatory airs and things mentioned. i found no mandatory airs. i found very nice steep multiple option tree chutes with excellent snow.


I feel like I read the same thing somewhere about mandatory airs and I've stayed away from even trying to find it.  Although it's probably out of my league even without the air.  Lol


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I feel like I read the same thing somewhere about mandatory airs and I've stayed away from even trying to find it.  Although it's probably out of my league even without the air.  Lol


I don't recall ever reading/hearing/seeing anything about mandatory airs. I have a pretty good idea how to get to it, but I'm just pretty sure it is steeper/tighter than I like in the woods so I wouldn't even try...


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## mikec142 (Mar 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I don't recall ever reading/hearing/seeing anything about mandatory airs. I have a pretty good idea how to get to it, but I'm just pretty sure it is steeper/tighter than I like in the woods so I wouldn't even try...


I feel like you and I are on the same page regarding terrain quite often.


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## Powder Whore (Mar 5, 2021)

I thought we were not supposed to speak of lines that are not on the map? This week I have read about the  lines between N Lynx & CR, the poop chutes, Huey’s, & HW 22 all on this forum. I realize these lines are far from secret but I also don’t think we need to be advertising them. Just my 2 cents.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I feel like you and I are on the same page regarding terrain quite often.


Hah. I've gotten that same impression.


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## ducky (Mar 5, 2021)

Friends don't let friends share about sidecountry on social media.


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## 1dog (Mar 5, 2021)

ducky said:


> Friends don't let friends share about sidecountry on social media.


unless we take'em there and kill 'em there - sort of a forest sacrifice. . . .  some of my best tree skiing partners were one and done. Its a good way to go tho . . .


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2021)

None of it is side country. It’s all in bounds. I’ve been giving conditions reports in a week of rapidly changing conditions and talking about where I’ve skied, in bounds, and finding with just my nose for pow. Not asking for directions or write ups.

mrg is super variable today


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## HowieT2 (Mar 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> None of it is side country. It’s all in bounds. I’ve been giving conditions reports in a week of rapidly changing conditions and talking about where I’ve skied, in bounds, and finding with just my nose for pow. Not asking for directions or write ups.
> 
> mrg is super variable today


Thanks to your report I hit the woods today.  Thank you.  I won’t say where, but somewhere on castlerock was very nice.  Repeatedly.  Good light powder on top of a scratchy base.  On the trails there was snow in the troughs.  Groomers were firm.


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2021)

I found LP quite variable this afternoon. Lots of icy spots showing up on groomers in many of the usual spots. Groomers I'm sure were better in the morning. Bumps are way too firm/solid for me. Tried a few lower elevation/low angle woods. Eden and Deeper Sleeper were decent (although lots of small branches down in lower Eden). Fischer Cat was very variable. One minute you're on 1/2" of snow covering a solid sub-surface, then all of a sudden you're hitting half foot+ drifts (and some of it looked deceptively similar until you hit it). A little too inconsistent for me to be that comfortable on...

Unless we get some decent snow tonight/this weekend, I think I'm going to try to take it pretty easy and stick to mostly groomers. Oh well...


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 5, 2021)

Any idea what’s going on with Heaven’s Gate? It went on mechanical hold according to the snow report mid-day today, and the lift status page says it’s still on hold, possibly for tomorrow. What’s the chance it’ll be open tomorrow?


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Any idea what’s going on with Heaven’s Gate? It went on mechanical hold according to the snow report mid-day today, and the lift status page says it’s still on hold, possibly for tomorrow. What’s the chance it’ll be open tomorrow?


I wouldn't read too much into the status page still saying it is on hold. For some reason the end of day update hasn't been done yet (trails, lifts, and text are all unchanged since early afternoon)


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## flakeydog (Mar 5, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> I thought we were not supposed to speak of lines that are not on the map? This week I have read about the  lines between N Lynx & CR, the poop chutes, Huey’s, & HW 22 all on this forum. I realize these lines are far from secret but I also don’t think we need to be advertising them. Just my 2 cents.


You mean like you just did here?  Sorry, couldn’t resist.


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## 180 (Mar 6, 2021)

How were Organgrinder and Rip Cord today?  Lot of scratch? Woods?


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Natural stuff was pretty icy today. Groomers were about average for a normal season. Ice patches by the end of the day, but not too bad. The woods that weren’t too skied off (Big Birch, Grand Stand, etc) had the best snow. Some runs like Upper Rim Run had great snow as well.


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## TSQURD (Mar 6, 2021)

Sucked today. You wouldn't believe the lift lines. Everyone should stick with Stowe. Even had to help rescue my buddy on one of the unsafe trails.  Lucky people at Stowe dont have to worry about things like that anymore, so I hear.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 6, 2021)

It was a firm and fast on the groomers at Mt Ellen today like it would be on a typical day in early January vs March 6th.   No lines on North Ridge chair.


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## cdskier (Mar 6, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> It was a firm and fast on the groomers at Mt Ellen today like it would be on a typical day in early January vs March 6th.   No lines on North Ridge chair.



Every chair at ME was virtually ski on all morning. A bit windy though at times...

I was pleasantly surprised by Exterminator. Those bumps actually held the snow somehow and were pretty nice. Of the groomed trails, I think Cliffs and Walt's skied the best and didn't scrape off like many others (natural snow vs man-made perhaps making a difference?). In terms of naturals, I thought Semi-Tough was actually somewhat decent too. I only ventured into the woods once off Looking Good. Decent snow in there for the most part, although also a thin crust on the untracked snow there in spots.


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## Powder Whore (Mar 6, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> You mean like you just did here?  Sorry, couldn’t resist.


 I hope that made you feel better


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## HowieT2 (Mar 6, 2021)

The woods at mt Ellen were fantastic.  So was lower fis And bravo.  Tumbler woods into lower fis plenty of fresh Lines.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2021)

People have mentioned lines but have not specifically said where they went in.  Also the lines they have mentioned are known to most regulars.  As long as people do not specifically give directions I am OK with talking about conditions.


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2021)

I have skied all over the place the last couple of days.  Conditions in the woods remain mixed in my opinion.  We found a few places that were 4 to 5 inches deep of wind blown that skied extremely well.  We found other aspects that were very tricky with variable conditions.  Crust, wind slab, ice, etc.  Some of the best skiing is gullies that collected snow.  Be carful out there. Saw patrol carting out a kid that smashed his knee after slipping in the woods.  Hope he is alright.  Headed out for another day of exploration.  Going real deep today.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 7, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I have skied all over the place the last couple of days.  Conditions in the woods remain mixed in my opinion.  We found a few places that were 4 to 5 inches deep of wind blown that skied extremely well.  We found other aspects that were very tricky with variable conditions.  Crust, wind slab, ice, etc.  Some of the best skiing is gullies that collected snow.  Be carful out there. Saw patrol carting out a kid that smashed his knee after slipping in the woods.  Hope he is alright.  Headed out for another day of exploration.  Going real deep today.



yea, getting scratchy out there today. thursday i thought sugarbush skied great. mad river on friday was weird - super wind affected. went to jay Saturday, very cold, very windy - was on the flyer just before they took it down for wind hold and it was straight up scary - but the snow at jay was pretty good, as it usually is. sugarbush today and its getting pretty scratchy and skied out, even in harder to find lines. i am going home tomorrow and will ski stratton bc its free and on the way. saving killington for later. hoping it gets >32 in the sun and things get soft.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 7, 2021)

Skied Lincoln peak today and it was good.  Maybe I’m just finding my rhythm but I thought everything skied great.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 7, 2021)

A very brief summary would be good groomers, icy natural, good woods.


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## 180 (Mar 7, 2021)

groomers scratchy after the morning. Bumps soft above 3000 feet.  Woods variable depending on aspect.  Sun helped the bumps on the left edge in many places


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## Hawk (Mar 8, 2021)

Tomorrow we plan to have some company finally.  I think Treeskier


HowieT2 said:


> Skied Lincoln peak today and it was good.  Maybe I’m just finding my rhythm but I thought everything skied great.


You my friend have successfully lowered your expectation to the right level.  LOL


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## Hawk (Mar 8, 2021)

A lot of angry regulars and locals on Sugarbush facebook this weekend.  Seems the recent firings have not gone over well.  Before I get pumbled with comments about how the business is loosing money and there are always two sides to the story, I just want to say this.  When this pandemic is over things will not look the same at all.  That is expected.  But what I hope is not lost is the soul of this place.  After all, for some of us, Sugarbush is not just about the great skiing, it's the people.  We have lost a ton of people that contributed a ton to make this place what it is.  I just hope the management has not lost sight of what made this place great.  I'm not blaming anyone just voicing what I and a lot of other long time regulars are thinking.  The people that are gone are not just employees, they are our friends and have always been a part of the fabric of what made this place great.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2021)

Firings as in plural? I only heard of 1 (and then another that quit as a result of the first firing). I'd love to know the justification for that firing though. I can sort of maybe understand the Egan one earlier this year (although even if justified from a financial perspective think it was handled poorly). The latest one that I know of I can't think of a good logical justification. Even if they're losing money, this latest one still wouldn't make sense from that perspective.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 8, 2021)

Hawk said:


> A lot of angry regulars and locals on Sugarbush facebook this weekend.  Seems the recent firings have not gone over well.  Before I get pumbled with comments about how the business is loosing money and there are always two sides to the story, I just want to say this.  When this pandemic is over things will not look the same at all.  That is expected.  But what I hope is not lost is the soul of this place.  After all, for some of us, Sugarbush is not just about the great skiing, it's the people.  We have lost a ton of people that contributed a ton to make this place what it is.  I just hope the management has not lost sight of what made this place great.  I'm not blaming anyone just voicing what I and a lot of other long time regulars are thinking.  The people that are gone are not just employees, they are our friends and have always been a part of the fabric of what made this place great.


what happened?


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## djd66 (Mar 8, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> what happened?


Apparently, Emily got fired and Jenny quit.  No idea what the reason was.  you can read about it here: https://www.facebook.com/SBWunderbar


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## NYDB (Mar 8, 2021)

From Hawks post I thought the Snowmaking Ops Manager and the General manager got fired or something.

1 long time food service person got fired?  and her friend quit?   Soul of the mountain?  You guys must really drink a lot.  

Sorry to be glib -  but just be glad your mountain didn't get bought by Vail.


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## tumbler (Mar 8, 2021)

We do drink a lot but your Vail point is well taken.


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## djd66 (Mar 8, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> From Hawks post I thought the Snowmaking Ops Manager and the General manager got fired or something.
> 
> 1 long time food service person got fired?  and her friend quit?   Soul of the mountain?  You guys must really drink a lot.
> 
> Sorry to be glib -  but just be glad your mountain didn't get bought by Vail.


Personally I have not been to any bar since last year.  I do however know all of the regular food service staff and I enjoy the upbeat vibe they bring to the MTN every day. Is it the end of the world for Sugarbush - NO.  People that have been coming to Sugarbush for years, getting a beer from the same bar tender and all of a sudden they get fired - it seems strange.  I guess I would like to know the back story.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 8, 2021)

I met a girl on a ski trip looong time ago when I was just starting to teach skiing.  Didn't exchange numbers or anything like that, just hung out a bit.  A few years later I ran into her (still can't believe I recognized her).  She was jumping from school to school trying to finish up her degree.  Later still we ran into each other again and she told me she was gonna go up and be a ski bum and teach skiing at SB.  I was so happy for her...finally getting to do what she wanted to do and enjoy some time in the industry, like I was myself (on the weekends at least!).  That was maybe 3 years ago.  This season at SB, I'm waiting in line for the Super Bravo and she looks at me and I look at her and she's the rfid scanner/checker.  We stopped and talked for a few minutes and did our every-couple-of-years-random-chance-encounter-catch-up before I finally got on the lift.  That's a true ski bum who's living the dream... only at Sugarbush.  The "good vibes" will remain at Sugrbush even without Win and the Egan brothers because of people like her. 

Hope this message finds you well, Ash!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 9, 2021)

the Facebook comment mutiny seems wild overblown. The overwhelming majority of skier customers can’t ID a bartender. In a year where there is basically no bar.


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## Hawk (Mar 9, 2021)

Kusty, I can understand your perspective.  You don't know these people.  FWIW - Jess was another girl that was let go recently.  I do know some of the people speaking up and I certainly know the people that have left.    A couple in particular that are speaking up have never been outspoken before.  That says volumes to me.  Look, like I said, I just hope they don't change what this special place is about.  I would not expect people that travel here occasionally to have forged relationships and understand.


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Kusty, I can understand your perspective.  You don't know these people.  FWIW - Jess was another girl that was let go recently.  I do know some of the people speaking up and I certainly know the people that have left.    A couple in particular that are speaking up have never been outspoken before.  That says volumes to me.  Look, like I said, I just hope they don't change what this special place is about.  I would not expect people that travel here occasionally to have forged relationships and understand.



I'll add a couple things here. My cousin only comes up here a couple times a year typically (he lives in MD so it is a bit of a haul). He heard about Emily on Facebook and already last night told me that Wunderbar is dead to him without Emily. So even some people that come here only occasionally recognize the impact if they were at all into the Apres scene.

Also for people like Kusty that don't know, she's not just a bartender on the mountain during ski season. She's also a bartender at the pub at the golf course the rest of the year. I personally don't golf, but in the past my dad and uncle would sometimes come up in the summer to golf. While they golf, I'd go for a hike. If they finish golf before I'm done hiking, they'd go to the pub for a drink. Emily would always ask if I still out hiking and if I would be joining them later on.

So in conclusion I completely disagree with people that say the reaction is overblown. To us regulars and locals, this is a big slap in the face of the culture here. As for comments like "well at least you weren't bought by Vail", that's irrelevant. Just because there's a worse possibility doesn't mean you should sit back and accept bad things simply because they aren't as bad as they could be.


----------



## Powder Whore (Mar 9, 2021)

It's interesting to me that people rush to vilify the resort and or Alterra without knowing any of the specifics of this situation. Graze on.


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## ss20 (Mar 9, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> It's interesting to me that people rush to vilify the resort and or Alterra without knowing any of the specifics of this situation. Graze on.



I agree with that.  Doubt this person/people were fired "just because" mid-season.  There's _always_ a back story.  

It's a tough industry with high turnover.... I'm not sure why we're letting a couple isolated events define company culture.


----------



## skierinri (Mar 9, 2021)

Considering the staffing issues for the industry, it seems hard to believe there isn't another side to the story.


----------



## skiur (Mar 9, 2021)

What did you guys think was going to happen when alterra bought the mountain? It was not going to remain the same as it was.


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## djd66 (Mar 9, 2021)

skiur said:


> What did you guys think was going to happen when alterra bought the mountain? It was not going to remain the same as it was.


1) Unless either party will tell us what actually happened - it is tough to make judgement.
2) As far as Altera goes,  I would find it impossible to grade Altera's performance during a pandemic.  Lots of people have died and lost jobs/businesses - it would be extremely selfish of me to complain about anything this year.  I was able to ski a shit ton and the mountain has been great.


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## mikec142 (Mar 9, 2021)

djd66 said:


> 1) Unless either party will tell us what actually happened - it is tough to make judgement.
> 2) As far as Altera goes,  I would find it impossible to grade Altera's performance during a pandemic.  Lots of people have died and lost jobs/businesses - it would be extremely selfish of me to complain about anything this year.  I was able to ski a shit ton and the mountain has been great.


It's funny...you say it would be impossible to grade Alterra's performance during the pandemic, yet you said you skied a ton and the mountain has been great.  

I was ready to punt on the season, but took a chance.  So far, I've skied a ton, felt very safe while doing it, & haven't noticed any negative changes to mountain operations as it relates to skiing.  From my perspective, that's a huge win and Alterra deserves kudo's.  We've all seen the complaints regarding Vail operated mountains.  

I think we are both giving Alterra high marks for dealing with the cards they were dealt.  

Parting thought.  Win really sold at the ideal time.  SB's value might never be higher than when he sold.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 9, 2021)

skiur said:


> What did you guys think was going to happen when alterra bought the mountain? It was not going to remain the same as it was.


you think Alterra had anything to do with firing a bartender of a bar that operates a few afternoons a week in season?  I would think they have bigger fish to fry


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## NYDB (Mar 9, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Kusty, I can understand your perspective.  You don't know these people.  FWIW - Jess was another girl that was let go recently.  I do know some of the people speaking up and I certainly know the people that have left.    A couple in particular that are speaking up have never been outspoken before.  That says volumes to me.  Look, like I said, I just hope they don't change what this special place is about.  I would not expect people that travel here occasionally to have forged relationships and understand.



But whats the issue? 

 I know we all like to have bartenders know our names and act friendly like (thats what they do since they rely on tips)  and treat us special but are they guaranteed employment or something?  

Are you long time sugarbush skiers in denial?  You got sold out to a giant corp.  15 years of service means fuck all to the new management. 

Look on the bright side, you still have probably the best hill(s) in VT to ski.    which is nice.


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2021)

They got rid of Egan without batting an eye..things change when owners change..not always for the best. He was a giant part of the place. Can't put a price on that..yet they did. In the end..we are all expendable in corporate culture.


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## skiur (Mar 9, 2021)

What I'm saying is personal relations won't matter with alterra like they did previously.  Employees are a number, not a face. That  can be a good and a bad thing.


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## tumbler (Mar 10, 2021)

Yes and no.  Alterra has stated that they will let the mountains run themselves in order to keep their individuality.  I have more than a feeling this is about the newly promoted sheriff in town.


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2021)

Everybody has the right to their opinion.  But a couple of things.  Altera has been pretty much hands off with Sugarbush.  Win told me that they did not want to poke into the daily business as Sugarbush was run very efficiently.  So the stance that a big company came in and is cleaning house is not the case.  I am most certain sure of this as it has been confirmed to me.

I guess it is hard for newcommers and part time people to understand the long time culture here so for the long time people and regulars we will just have to grin and bear it.  I was lucky enough to be embraced by the mountain community as a 15 year 50-60 day person.  It was not just a bartender or ski instructor that knew my name or got me my drink.  They were friends that I hung out with occasionally and shared experiences.  Hard to understand when you are here because you got a bargain pass.


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## Blurski (Mar 10, 2021)

Would anyone like to see another expert run groomed other than RC, I don't count waterfall, Lwr Grinder, etc.  Puts us at 1 groomed expert run at south.
Practically no one skies Steins or Grinder.  I take my obligatory Steins & Grinder no matter what the conditions are but it would be nice to a least have 1 more choice to make steeper groomed turns on.


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## djd66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Steins is pretty awful right now. Not sure if not grooming it makes the snow last longer for the spring?


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2021)

Most years Steins usually sees a groomer pretty regularly. I was wondering a bit why it hasn't really been groomed much at all this year. Like djd, one thought I had was maybe it was a test of preserving the snow longer on it for spring...

I last skied Stein's 2 Saturdays ago (the day it changed from snow to non-snow as the day went on). That day skier's right was really nice. I haven't touched it since then as it looked way too shiny this past weekend.


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## kingslug (Mar 10, 2021)

Steins deserves better..you know..because its named after Stein. Skied it last year and it was sporty for sure. So I did it twice.
But I never see too many on it.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2021)

Blurski said:


> Would anyone like to see another expert run groomed other than RC, I don't count waterfall, Lwr Grinder, etc.  Puts us at 1 groomed expert run at south.
> Practically no one skies Steins or Grinder.  I take my obligatory Steins & Grinder no matter what the conditions are but it would be nice to a least have 1 more choice to make steeper groomed turns on.


I guess the question would be, which expert run would you want to see groomed?  While I do see the appeal of another groomed expert, I can't think of one expert trail that is bumped that I'd rather see groomed.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Steins deserves better..you know..because its named after Stein. Skied it last year and it was sporty for sure. So I did it twice.
> But I never see too many on it.


I'd love to see data on how many people ski Steins before the spring.  I rarely see people on it and it rarely looks appealing to me.


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'd love to see data on how many people ski Steins before the spring.  I rarely see people on it and it rarely looks appealing to me.


I think it depends a lot on the conditions. There are some days other years where I've seen a ton of people pretty regularly on Steins. This year not so much...



mikec142 said:


> I guess the question would be, which expert run would you want to see groomed?  While I do see the appeal of another groomed expert, I can't think of one expert trail that is bumped that I'd rather see groomed.



Stein's would be fine with me if they groomed it somewhat regularly. But other than that, I agree there's no bumped trail I'd rather they groom.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> They got rid of Egan without batting an eye..things change when owners change..not always for the best. He was a giant part of the place. Can't put a price on that..yet they did. In the end..we are all expendable in corporate culture.


I love Egan and hope they find a way bring him back in the fold, but saying you "can't put a price on that", is disingenious.  You don't actually believe that SB should hand Egan a blank check.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think it depends a lot on the conditions. There are some days other years where I've seen a ton of people pretty regularly on Steins. This year not so much...
> 
> 
> 
> Stein's would be fine with me if they groomed it somewhat regularly. But other than that, I agree there's no bumped trail I'd rather they groom.


This.  It needs some grooming.  seeing glare ice on the the trail from the bravo does not make me want to ski it.  Been there, done that.  I'll pass until it softens up one way or the other.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I love Egan and hope they find a way bring him back in the fold, but saying you "can't put a price on that", is disingenious.  You don't actually believe that SB should hand Egan a blank check.


I don't personally know John Egan.  But I do love the idea of him and I love the idea of him being associated with Sugarbush.  And like Howie (and others) I'd be very happy to see him back.

That said, things just don't work like that anymore.  Sports teams move on from players all the time.  Key people leave corporations all the time and the next guy steps up his game.

Personally, I'd love to see John back.  In the meantime, I'd really like to see some young, hotshot instructor become the next "skiing face" of SB.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 10, 2021)

I've been to Sugarbush about 8 or 9 times and I've only ever skied it twice.  It often is glistening in the sunshine and that's just not fun for me...


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## kingslug (Mar 10, 2021)

I met john in the airport going to chile..didn't really recognize him but I was sure I knew him. Had on a VT shirt. Then I saw him at a Warren Miller movie night in Westchester..ahh..thats who it was. 
I hope he finds something rewarding to do. Maybe start his own ski tour company.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 10, 2021)

Steins is a lot of fun to ski when there is good early season natural snow cover.  Then they blow a ton of snow and it becomes a styro-snow ice sheet that most people avoid until it softens up again in late March.


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Steins is a lot of fun to ski when there is good early season natural snow cover.  Then they blow a ton of snow and it becomes a styro-snow ice sheet that most people avoid until it softens up again in late March.


styro-snow...perfect descriptor


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2021)

I skied Steins last weekend and I literally could have been on my Bauer Ice Skates.  FWIW, its always something I have been curious to try on the bullet proof stuff.


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## kingslug (Mar 11, 2021)

Stein would not approve...


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 11, 2021)

It’s a shame to be honest. I wish they would make snow on it early season, groom it relatively often, and let it be groomed every few days until mid-late February when snowmaking starts to build more coverage for the spring. It has been practically unskiable for the whole season. I would also add Sunrise to the list of trails that should be groomed more often. Nobody skis it bumped up.


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## kingslug (Mar 11, 2021)

Imagine if they named a run after you..and it sucked most of the time and no one liked to ski it.


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s a shame to be honest. I wish they would make snow on it early season, groom it relatively often, and let it be groomed every few days until mid-late February when snowmaking starts to build more coverage for the spring. It has been practically unskiable for the whole season. I would also add Sunrise to the list of trails that should be groomed more often. Nobody skis it bumped up.


sunrise was groomed last week.  Personally, I like when sunrise is bumped up, however after the thaw/freeze - it needed a grooming.


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s a shame to be honest. I wish they would make snow on it early season, groom it relatively often, and let it be groomed every few days until mid-late February when snowmaking starts to build more coverage for the spring. It has been practically unskiable for the whole season. I would also add Sunrise to the list of trails that should be groomed more often. Nobody skis it bumped up.


Sunrise is a good one!  That pod already has Morningstar (a hidden gem imho) for bumps and Birch gets the vast majority of the traffic.  Would be cool to move some traffic to Sunrise.  It's also wide enough that you could leave half bumped up kinda like Ripcord.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Sunrise is a good one!  That pod already has Morningstar (a hidden gem imho) for bumps and Birch gets the vast majority of the traffic.  Would be cool to move some traffic to Sunrise.  It's also wide enough that you could leave half bumped up kinda like Ripcord.


When they groom Sunrise, that's exactly what they do in the middle section. The top isn't really wide enough to do half groom/half bumps IMO...

Personally I like Sunrise being left to bump up and only groom it as needed when it gets too icy/firm.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’s a shame to be honest. I wish they would make snow on it early season, groom it relatively often, and let it be groomed every few days until mid-late February when snowmaking starts to build more coverage for the spring. It has been practically unskiable for the whole season. I would also add Sunrise to the list of trails that should be groomed more often. Nobody skis it bumped up.


I think they used to make snow on it earlier, but it needs so much snow to survive the spring, that it significantly delayed making snow on multiple other trails.  With respect to grooming I think it needs to be winched.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> When they groom Sunrise, that's exactly what they do in the middle section. The top isn't really wide enough to do half groom/half bumps IMO...
> 
> Personally I like Sunrise being left to bump up and only groom it as needed when it gets too icy/firm.


I like the bumps on sunrise especially with the ability to lap it quickly.  That being said, its where I tore my acl.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2021)

Article on ski area tailgating.  I noticed last weekend that SB put in the snow report that no tailgating is allowed anywhere and I saw the parking lot guys break up a nice one in the heli lot.  It went from encouraged to not allowed.








						Skiers get creative with tailgating options
					

The pandemic has changed the ski experience this season. With limited or even no access to some resort’s lodges, skiers have been forced to improvise.




					www.wcax.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 12, 2021)

wow that sucks...


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Article on ski area tailgating.  I noticed last weekend that SB put in the snow report that no tailgating is allowed anywhere and I saw the parking lot guys break up a nice one in the heli lot.  It went from encouraged to not allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The tailgating restrictions at SB were actually mentioned over a month ago in one of the blog posts. See here down towards the bottom:








						A Thank You and Mid-Season Ops Update - SugarBlog
					

Two months into the season, everyone deserves a big thank you, as well as an operational update on how things are going.




					blog.sugarbush.com


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## Blurski (Mar 12, 2021)

Grooming, I know Sugarbush & Killington are two totally different animals however they are both in Vermont.

Sugarbush groomed 17/111 trails 15% based on today’s report, reason stated “Warm overnight Temperatures”, and Killington groomed 70/86 trails 81%.

Is what it is, it is more giving a questionable excuse why so little was groomed. Maybe total legit, K’s base does sit at 2,000’.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2021)

when killington has 86 trails open, that is basically only their groomers. their trail count shoots to about 150 when the natural terrain is open. killington's groomers get a pass with a groomer just about every night. they also probably have a pretty deep snowmaking base on their groomers

sugarbush has all 111 trails open, which is typical - they are very laissez faire about letting the skier decide for themself. when sugarbush rolls out a full groom it is about 60 trails, so they definitely went light last night, but the killington comparison is a bit off bc killington simply closed all of their natural terrain


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2021)

When temps don't drop below freezing overnight it makes absolute sense to limit your grooming to just a couple routes. Running a heavy groomer over wet snow is not at all good for snow preservation (or for quality after a refreeze due to the compaction of wet snow by a heavy machine).


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## slatham (Mar 12, 2021)

Agreed, and especially when the temps are going to be warm enough to create spring snow anyhow.

Now tonight you should see everyone implement a maximum grooming plan as temps will drop and not come up enough tomorrow.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2021)

The issue is when you groom when it is above freezing and then it drops below freezing which was the case last night.  It is a much more enjoyable skiing experience to ski on groomed spring snow than non groomed.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2021)

Beautiful spring afternoon out there today. But boy are we going to need some snow to keep some of the natural terrain open much longer. I was amazed how many bare spots are up on Castlerock. Tomorrow is going to be interesting. Hope those temps drop early enough so the trails freeze up before they're ready to start grooming.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2021)

Mad River Glen was awesome as usual today. 

Yes the snow is going quick, but what did we all expect.  Look at the total for the season.  148 is far below average.   We were just lucky that the temps stayed cold for 6 weeks and we got small refreshes the whole time.  Basically a perfect storm for not that much snow I think.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Mad River Glen was awesome as usual today.
> 
> Yes the snow is going quick, but what did we all expect.  Look at the total for the season.  148 is far below average.   We were just lucky that the temps stayed cold for 6 weeks and we got small refreshes the whole time.  Basically a perfect storm for not that much snow I think.



Yea...in the past 10 years this is the 4th lowest snowfall total we've had at this point in the season. 10 year average for March 12th over the previous 10 years is 190". Easy to forget with that extended stretch of great conditions we had this season.

Interestingly enough we seem to be in a snow hole again in the MRV. Both K and Stowe have about 40" more than we do this season so far...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2021)

about 25" of killington's is the december storm that totally missed north


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## jaybird (Mar 14, 2021)

.. Sugarbush snowfall reports are generally more accurate than K. Bush opts to the conservative side. The three foot storm only made it as far as Chittenden. As to grooming, there is no comparison whatsoever. K absolutely pulverizes their snow with excessive multiple passes. The water content of their machine made snow is generally higher due to water supply and equipment. This time of year, sun orientation has a significant impact on snow surface. Of course, add that to the fact that they support two or three times the skier traffic and it’s no surprise that the place skis very LOUD. Having skied both last week, there was a noticeable difference.


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## slatham (Mar 14, 2021)

Amazing and disappointing how little snow has fallen since late Feb. The last 4 weeks are typically a time of year where you get good March storms. Maybe at the end of this week we'll get something but that could easily miss to the south.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 15, 2021)

Looking like corn peel away
Wednesday/Thursday this  week
Then a real cycle for the weekend and week after
Sat and Sunday could be top spring days


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## ducky (Mar 16, 2021)

Yesterday felt like the coldest day of the year.


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 16, 2021)

Damn close. Was in a PSIA clinic all day...nasty cold. Sleeper was the trail of the day because it's protected from the wind.
Snow was pretty firm everywhere.


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## WinS (Mar 16, 2021)

ducky said:


> Yesterday felt like the coldest day of the year.


I will second that. It was a four run day. The weekend is looking really nice at this point and probably a good time to enjoy some trails like Castlerock and Sunrise before the spring sun does it’s thing. Stein’s with 10 feet of depth is going to last for awhile and maybe the wishes of some of you will come to pass one night this week.


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## ss20 (Mar 16, 2021)

WinS said:


> I will second that. It was a four run day. The weekend is looking really nice at this point and probably a good time to enjoy some trails like Castlerock and Sunrise before the spring sun does it’s thing. Stein’s with 10 feet of depth is going to last for awhile and maybe the wishes of some of you will come to pass one night this week.



Sounded like a lot of innuendos to say "groom"!  It's the only trail closed on the trail report so it's gotta be absolutely nasty.


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## WinS (Mar 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Sounded like a lot of innuendos to say "groom"!  It's the only trail closed on the trail report so it's gotta be absolutely nasty.


Some reflections from past experience. It takes a lot of time to winch Stein’s, so it has to fit into an overall grooming plan. Once groomed unless there is new snow or the sun softens it, it has to be groomed every night or it becomes very slick. The ideal time is to groom is just before or as new snow is falling or an evening when it is set up and the morning spring sun will soften it and new moguls  can be formed.


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## jaybird (Mar 16, 2021)

Paquette once showed me a video of him grooming Steins one night a couple years ago. He bladed a 3 foot ridge near the top and the whole slab took off downhill since the underlying layer was porcelain. Pretty cool footage .. avalanche worthy .. he was pretty amped about it. Looking forward to bumping the crap out of that pitch soon


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## TSQURD (Mar 17, 2021)

Heard today there is a problem with the backup diesel motor on North Lynx, and might be down for some time, or even the rest of the season.


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## tumbler (Mar 17, 2021)

Bummer.  Spring is the one time of year I make an effort to get up to there.  Bumps on Sunrise are fun


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Bummer.  Spring is the one time of year I make an effort to get up to there.  Bumps on Sunrise are fun


Maybe they'll get it fixed sooner. Although with the current weather forecast, we may not have much time left on North Lynx this season anyway.


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## WinS (Mar 17, 2021)

Leak in the radiator on the Cummins motor. Not a part that is easy to find, but I know they are searching. Sunrise is going to be so sweet this weekend. It would be worth a skin if the lift doesn’t turn.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 17, 2021)

WinS said:


> Leak in the radiator on the Cummins motor. Not a part that is easy to find, but I know they are searching. Sunrise is going to be so sweet this weekend. It would be worth a skin if the lift doesn’t turn.


duct tape?


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## djd66 (Mar 17, 2021)

WinS said:


> Leak in the radiator on the Cummins motor. Not a part that is easy to find, but I know they are searching. Sunrise is going to be so sweet this weekend. It would be worth a skin if the lift doesn’t turn.


Try some black pepper


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## ss20 (Mar 17, 2021)

I thought lifts need the primary drive and 2 back-up options?  If one back-up is down can they still run a lift with a primary and one aux?

@Sotto


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## Hawk (Mar 18, 2021)

I am not sure what a second back up option can be.  The lift runs on 3 phase power and has a diesel motor as a back up.  What am I missing here?


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I am not sure what a second back up option can be.  The lift runs on 3 phase power and has a diesel motor as a back up.  What am I missing here?


I know there are some lifts that have 2 back-ups, although I didn't think it was necessarily the case with all lifts. For example doesn't GMX have 2 diesel back-ups? That's why they were able to run it on the primary diesel back-up last year when they had problems with the electric motor because it still had a secondary emergency backup. I didn't think that was standard though.


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 18, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I thought lifts need the primary drive and 2 back-up options?  If one back-up is down can they still run a lift with a primary and one aux?
> 
> @Sotto


I believe that’s usually found on detachables but isn’t required. Super Bravo only has a primary electric motor and an evac drive to my knowledge but some others, swift current at big sky for example has a backup diesel that can run it closer to full speed if needed. The evac runs the lift at a crawl and is only intended to clear the line before shutting down the lift for the day to fix the issue/regain power.


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## flakeydog (Mar 18, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I thought lifts need the primary drive and 2 back-up options?  If one back-up is down can they still run a lift with a primary and one aux?
> 
> @Sotto


I think just 1 primary and 1 backup (2nd backup is Patrol, ropes and a harness).  GMX had 2 primaries, I believe, electric and diesel.  This worked in their favor for this key lift allowing them to run on the diesel primary for weeks while waiting for parts/repair on the electric motor.  They could do this because they still had another diesel backup motor. Otherwise that lift would have been idle that whole time.


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## jaybird (Mar 18, 2021)

I'll donate several gallons of coolant in order to keep the grillin' goin' up there

Always carry 30 feet of rope.


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## tumbler (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm gonna need about 10 quarts of antifreeze preferably Prestone...no, make the Quaker State


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## mikec142 (Mar 18, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I'm gonna need about 10 quarts of antifreeze preferably Prestone...no, make the Quaker State


Well done.  Love a good Fletch reference.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 18, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Well done.  Love a good Fletch reference.


its all ball bearings nowadays


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## WinS (Mar 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I know there are some lifts that have 2 back-ups, although I didn't think it was necessarily the case with all lifts. For example doesn't GMX have 2 diesel back-ups? That's why they were able to run it on the primary diesel back-up last year when they had problems with the electric motor because it still had a secondary emergency backup. I didn't think that was standard though.


Hawk if correct for most. CD is correct for GMX. That is why it was able to run last year after lightning blew out the drive. It ran on one diesel motor and there was a back-up diesel. Lifts must have at least one back-up motor.


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## PAabe (Mar 18, 2021)

Go get some squirrels and nuts on the line to use as backup power then it'll be all set


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## djd66 (Mar 18, 2021)

Amazing how many lift mechanics are on this board!


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## mikec142 (Mar 18, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Amazing how many lift mechanics are on this board!


Well...I did stay at a Holiday Inn once...


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2021)

I see the statement about North Lynx being closed for maintenance has been taken out of the snow report. Perhaps they fixed the issue?


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## TSQURD (Mar 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I see the statement about North Lynx being closed for maintenance has been taken out of the snow report. Perhaps they fixed the issue?


It appeared there was a handful of mechanics working on it this afternoon, so hopefully!


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 18, 2021)

TSQURD said:


> It appeared there was a handful of mechanics working on it this afternoon, so hopefully!


Pretty sure that was Slidebrook87 getting after it.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 18, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Amazing how many lift mechanics are on this board!



Lot of wannabe mechanics at least...hahaha.  

Out of all the mountains this forum has "insiders" on, with SB you get by farrrr the most knowledge between Win, former emps, and of course the locals.  Y'all are a treasure.


----------



## HowieT2 (Mar 18, 2021)

North lynx open on the lift status.  That’s a good sign.
I didn’t ski, bit I hear the 2” skied nicely today.


----------



## teleo (Mar 18, 2021)

If they fix it, there goes the skinning oppty. Not sure which I like better.


----------



## teleo (Mar 18, 2021)

while we're on NL, those lifties have been killing it on the grill this year.  Kudos to them.


----------



## WinS (Mar 18, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> North lynx open on the lift status.  That’s a good sign.
> I didn’t ski, bit I hear the 2” skied nicely today.


First tracks after patrol on Ripcord. Could not see a thing, but knowing Dan P winched it last night, I trusted the terrain and the 1” made is sweet.


----------



## Powder Whore (Mar 19, 2021)

2” of mank  never skied so good! Wow it was great to feel fresh snow under my feet again. The bumps off of gmx skied the best IMO.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 19, 2021)

Headed out now after work commitments.  So psyched.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Headed out now after work commitments.  So psyched.


Hah...I think I left my condo right around the same time you posted this.

Here's my take...Gate House side was softening up fairly nicely. Up off Heaven's Gate was decent. Valley House side was an ice skating rink (going to guess those trails hadn't fully drained and setup by the time they groomed them).


----------



## WinS (Mar 20, 2021)

The 


cdskier said:


> Hah...I think I left my condo right around the same time you posted this.
> 
> Here's my take...Gate House side was softening up fairly nicely. Up off Heaven's Gate was decent. Valley House side was an ice skating rink (going to guess those trails hadn't fully drained and setup by the time they groomed them).


Bravo side is the evening groom and Spring  Fling is usually first to get groomed, so it has the longest time to set up. Also a NW wind can buff it out as happened Thursday night. GH is last groomed and gets the best morning sun, so it will almost always be softer after as warm up cool down. That’s where I am headed at 9am on Saturday.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 20, 2021)

If it wasn't for the runout, I'd be lapping Lower FIS today. The spring bumps there were soft and fun. ROTD for me...


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 21, 2021)

Hey all, hope its Ok to post this here, if not my apologies. 

I have a quad pack for sugarbush for sale. Its good now thru whenever they close. Its a leftover bought pre pandemic. I've been holding onto them hoping the travel restrictions to VT would change, but looks like thats not gonna happen.

I cannot go as I cannot meet the quarantine restrictions. Im bummed, but that means I'll go twice as much next year.

Its 4 live all mountain tickets, assign a day on-line, show up, and ski, they are RFID cards.

I hope someone can put these to good use.

Given Sugarbush's prices these days these are a sweet deal.

I am in southern NH and have paypal, if you are reasonably close I can deliver. if interested, IM me and I will respond.


Thanks!


----------



## WinS (Mar 21, 2021)

I am sure SB would prefer to have some one buy them from you and and buy at least a beer and slice of pizza than having them go to waist. Hopefully there are 37 more days of lift accessed skiing left to enjoy.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 21, 2021)

WinS said:


> I am sure SB would prefer to have some one buy them from you and and buy at least a beer and slice of pizza than having them go to waist. Hopefully there are 37 more days of lift accessed skiing left to enjoy.


Thanks Win, hope all is well.

What's the 37 days mean BTW? thx!


----------



## cdskier (Mar 22, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Thanks Win, hope all is well.
> 
> What's the 37 days mean BTW? thx!



There are 37 more days this season that Sugarbush plans to be open (weather permitting...)


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There are 37 more days this season that Sugarbush plans to be open (weather permitting...)


Roger that, thx!


----------



## ducky (Mar 22, 2021)

Eric, try Front Porch Forum. They seem to go fast there. https://frontporchforum.com/areas/179/current-issue


----------



## jaybird (Mar 23, 2021)

Castlerocks showing .. but we aired it out a few times,
Still only a few takers on Steins .. wont be long now.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Castlerocks showing .. but we aired it out a few times,
> Still only a few takers on Steins .. wont be long now.



Looks like the Rock might be done 

Also sad that it is ME's last weekend coming up already.

Interesting memories for today on my Facebook that show how amazingly different every year is. 2 years ago we were skiing a 20-30" dump today. 9 years ago we were uploading/downloading on GMX at ME just so we could ski a few very thin trails off the summit lift... (that was a pretty sad first year of condo ownership up here for me!)


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 23, 2021)

Can someone post a representative picture of Castlerock?  I haven't been up in a while...combination of so-so conditions, responsibilities at home, and an upcoming trip to Colorado have gotten in the way.  Would love to get up for a weekend in April, but not even sure if I see that happening.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Mar 23, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Can someone post a representative picture of Castlerock?  I haven't been up in a while...combination of so-so conditions, responsibilities at home, and an upcoming trip to Colorado have gotten in the way.  Would love to get up for a weekend in April, but not even sure if I see that happening.


These are not mine, but 2 photos of Middleearth and CR Run on Sunday.


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 23, 2021)

Thanks.  What a weird season.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2021)

aint over yet if the forecast for early next week holds


----------



## flakeydog (Mar 23, 2021)

I am confident that they will hold out to may like they always do.  We are below average on snowfall for sure but we hung on to it pretty well with no major thaws until now.  It is a little scary to compare the big meltdown of 11-12 to this in terms of snow depth (see pic, Mt Mansfield stake) but that year we were in the 80s for almost a week, this is just 60s.  Also, we stay open on man-made snow and those depths look good as compared to most other years.  And of course we will get that april storm, we did in 2012 but it was just too late.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2021)

yep. we got less snow this year, but it all came in a ~6-8 time period with no mid winter thaws. jan-feb was so dreamy. of course my big trips this year were in December and March


----------



## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> aint over yet if the forecast for early next week holds


I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for next week. Last week I decided to take next week off in case it stays warm so I can still ski mid-week before we're down to only a few trails (still had 5 rollover days from last year to use). With some luck, maybe I'll get to ski some actual real snow. Also toying with the idea of making a drive down to K one day next week if I need a change of scenery.


----------



## HowieT2 (Mar 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> aint over yet if the forecast for early next week holds


This.


----------



## slatham (Mar 23, 2021)

Castlerock no surprise given YTD snowfall, steep, natural and south facing. A decent storm puts it back in action though.


----------



## jaybird (Mar 23, 2021)

Castlemossweed Run .. 
Was great while it lasted ..


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 23, 2021)

ducky said:


> Eric, try Front Porch Forum. They seem to go fast there. https://frontporchforum.com/areas/179/current-issue


Thank you very much! I will check that out.


----------



## WinS (Mar 24, 2021)

Still 10’ deep on Stein’s.


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 24, 2021)

Over the past 10 years, my season has finished at the end of March mostly due to my kids local commitments.  These days that isn't an issue.  It's more of a...is it worth the 5.5 hour drive each direction...kinda thing.  I think I skied on 3/31 and 4/1 after that huge spring storm in Mid-March...maybe that was three seasons ago.  Because of that storm, pretty much all of LP was open and actually I think one of those days was ME's final day so we skied there too and it was almost all open.

Realistically, what will be skiable this season the weekend of 4/16-4/17 and after?


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Over the past 10 years, my season has finished at the end of March mostly due to my kids local commitments.  These days that isn't an issue.  It's more of a...is it worth the 5.5 hour drive each direction...kinda thing.  I think I skied on 3/31 and 4/1 after that huge spring storm in Mid-March...maybe that was three seasons ago.  Because of that storm, pretty much all of LP was open and actually I think one of those days was ME's final day so we skied there too and it was almost all open.
> 
> Realistically, what will be skiable this season the weekend of 4/16-4/17 and after?



I have absolutely no idea and wouldn't want to try to speculate too much now. It all depends on the weather. Obviously ME will be closed. Most likely Gate House would be done by then. So you're most likely looking at some form of skiing off Super Bravo/Valley House and maybe Heaven's Gate. On the low end, you could be down to just Stein's and Spring Fling. If it stays cool or we get snow, it could be more. Hard to say too much without knowing what will happen in terms of weather over the next 3 weeks. A lot can change in that time.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 24, 2021)

Unless we get snow and it stays cold, my prediction for that weekend is this.  And this might be a little wishful thinking:
 - Snowball, Spring Fling, Steins, Allyns Travers, Ripchord, Upper Organgrinder, Domino Chute to Lower Organgrinder, Downspout, Lower Downspout, Coffee Run.
No Castlerock, no North Linx and I think the sun will kill Gate House


----------



## STREETSKIER (Mar 26, 2021)

Total sno pack  devastation in progress 
Going to be an early end 
Unless you like steins 
Was a good week but very sad 
Mrg closed yesterday


----------



## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)




----------



## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

Taking a walk yesterday afternoon and seeing everything melting even on the mountain was downright depressing...


----------



## urungus (Mar 26, 2021)

STREETSKIER said:


> Mrg closed yesterday



But still hoping to reopen for the weekend


----------



## ducky (Mar 26, 2021)

Mt Mansfield snow stake is at 36”. Last year was 36” until May 22nd.


----------



## flakeydog (Mar 26, 2021)

ducky said:


> Mt Mansfield snow stake is at 36”. Last year was 36” until May 22nd.


Last year was wacky (aside from the not being able to ski in April/May part) it was a a bit chilly mid april into early may.  The snow depth on Mansfield really held steady from mid-March all the way to early May, very unusual.  Then it warmed up, 5/15/20 was at 60", 5/22 30", 5/28 was 3".  If you look at the records, the snow always goes super fast in May, even if it's at 80+ in mid-April.  We are still a squeak ahead of the 2012 meltdown (36 vs 30 on that same day).  Luckily we have man-made snow so what happens on top of Mt Mansfield does not always apply here but still interesting.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 26, 2021)

You can add twist, moonshine, paradise, morning star and lower bird land to the carnage list.  Domino, mall and Spills will be your natural snow options for today.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

I was thinking this morning...things really started to go downhill right after they groomed Middle Earth this year. Two predicted storms that week turned into duds. We then started having some thaw/freeze cycles. Mother Nature wasn't too happy with that decision apparently!


----------



## Hawk (Mar 26, 2021)

You know.... your right!   I also thought that was bad Karma.

LOL


----------



## JimG. (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I was thinking this morning...things really started to go downhill right after they groomed Middle Earth this year. Two predicted storms that week turned into duds. We then started having some thaw/freeze cycles. Mother Nature wasn't too happy with that decision apparently!


Mother Nature wears a "stop the brutal grooming" shirt.


----------



## ducky (Mar 26, 2021)

People are still buying Quad Packs on Front Porch Forum. Several "in search of" posts lately. 






						Login  - Front Porch Forum
					






					frontporchforum.com


----------



## Hawk (Mar 27, 2021)

woke up this morning and looked at the thermometer.  33 at 1800 feet.  Yikes.  there are about 20 brave skiers out there mostly skiing spring fling.  I hope it warms up.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 27, 2021)




----------



## pinnoke (Mar 27, 2021)

but snow report indicates "buttery turns"!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2021)

i am actually glad to see snow on the trails from that view. i expected a more grim picture. twist and moonshine look like they are still skiable once the corn cycles.

your house view? very nice. good for you.


----------



## TSQURD (Mar 27, 2021)

Here's a pic from about 3:30 yesterday from a slightly different perspective.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2021)

lol. woof. still skiable!


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Mar 27, 2021)

Excellent spring day. Snow is holding up well. Warmed up to mid 40s. Natural snow trails will be done after tomorrow's weather.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> woke up this morning and looked at the thermometer.  33 at 1800 feet.  Yikes.  there are about 20 brave skiers out there mostly skiing spring fling.  I hope it warms up.



I went to Ellen to get some final turns in there. It softened up surprisingly quickly even though the temp wasn't changing much early on. Good thing this is the last weekend though for ME. Not much snow left below North Ridge over there.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 27, 2021)

This is moot at this point but just out curiosity, does anyone know or wants to guess how Slidebrook was last weekend? (3/20-21). I was there and had the option of a private pickup at German Farts Rd on Sunday, but opted not to. (Would've been taking first timers and was worried it'd be a Bad Time if coverage and surfaces were poor).


----------



## cdskier (Mar 28, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Unless we get snow and it stays cold, my prediction for that weekend is this.  And this might be a little wishful thinking:
> - Snowball, Spring Fling, Steins, Allyns Travers, Ripchord, Upper Organgrinder, Domino Chute to Lower Organgrinder, Downspout, Lower Downspout, Coffee Run.
> No Castlerock, no North Linx and I think the sun will kill Gate House



I'd put a giant question mark next to Lower Organgrinder and Downspout at least for the weekend in question after what I saw on the mountain today. I'm not sure either makes it another 2 weeks unless it gets and stays cold. And if they can't keep DS patched together, then we'd lose all the HG terrain no matter how much snow OG/RC still have. Even Snowball is going to give the groomers some work to keep open it seems...


----------



## jaybird (Mar 28, 2021)

Rescue Downspout !
HG is worth keeping for a week or so


----------



## Tonyr (Mar 28, 2021)

Skied Lincoln Peak on Wednesday, Mt Ellen on Thursday, and Mt Ellen again today. There was a big difference in conditions from Wednesday through Sunday the sun and rain really did alot of damage. The bumps on Steins, Organgrinder, Spillsville, and even Paradise were really good on Wednesday. Thursday we called it early due to the sticky sink-in snow. I'm guessing those runs we did on Wednesday would be close to unskiable today from what I saw at Mt Ellen. Cinco de Mayo is going to be tough to make this year. 

From Wednesday of Organgrinder, Steins, and Paradise....




These photos were from today under the Green Mountain Lift.....


----------



## tumbler (Mar 29, 2021)

Is Roxbury Gap a mess?


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Is Roxbury Gap a mess?



...yes...https://www.facebook.com/RoxburyGapStat/


----------



## tumbler (Mar 29, 2021)

Figured, thanks I forgot about that FB page.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

Anyone know why they don't pave the Gap?  It's not a major road but there's always a decent number of cars/trucks on it I see (local and out-of-state) @cdskier @Hawk @shadyjay


----------



## pinnoke (Mar 29, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Anyone know why they don't pave the Gap?  It's not a major road but there's always a decent number of cars/trucks on it I see (local and out-of-state) @cdskier @Hawk @shadyjay


not from around here, huh?


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> not from around here, huh?



lol nope.  But been over the road plenty.  I'm ASSuming it's local opposition as people don't want a small increase of cars on that road from additional ski traffic as a trade-off for having a safe and passable road 365 days a year (save heavy snows of course).


----------



## pinnoke (Mar 29, 2021)

cost of installing and maintaining a paved (State-funded) road vs. rural (character) unpaved route must certainly be a factor. I don't live uber-locally, but in Chittenden County, often taking the App Gap (paved but never smooth) #17 to SB. A major investment, with a most-certain increase in traffic if paved.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 29, 2021)

ss20 said:


> lol nope.  But been over the road plenty.  I'm ASSuming it's local opposition as people don't want a small increase of cars on that road from additional ski traffic as a trade-off for having a safe and passable road 365 days a year (save heavy snows of course).



That road gets really muddy on one side and has good pitch on the other and when it freezes it is a mess.  Had to straddle a snow bank to get down due to freezing rain.  It was a nail biter!  Cars off the road everywhere and you hoped that you were not going to hit them or join them.


----------



## ducky (Mar 29, 2021)

Paved roads on higher elevation steep slopes last about 3-5 years. Dirt roads easier to maintain. Also, the road falls within two towns' designations (not state).


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That road gets really muddy on one side and has good pitch on the other and when it freezes it is a mess.  Had to straddle a snow bank to get down due to freezing rain.  It was a nail biter!  Cars off the road everywhere and you hoped that you were not going to hit them or join them.



I don't take the Gap unless it's been below freezing for a week, hasn't snowed at all for a few days, and there's blue sky with no chance of precip.  Heck I took it once this year and at the bottom of the dirt section the temp had gotten into the mid-30s with sun and it was already super muddy and rutted up.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

ducky said:


> Paved roads on higher elevation steep slopes last about 3-5 years. Dirt roads easier to maintain. Also, the road falls within two towns' designations (not state).



Ah thank you.  Did not realize it was not a state road.  I could see how a municipality would have a tough time getting the funds to pave that road.  I'm sure it would also need some structural improvements to the sides as well.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 29, 2021)

ducky's answer makes sense. I always sort of wondered myself and just figured it was a combination of cost and paving not holding up well to all the freeze/thaws and heaving it would experience in that area. I think I've only gone all the way over that road once (in the summer or fall). I'm coming from the western side of the greens when I drive up from NJ, so I have no reason to ever be on Roxbury gap road.


----------



## pinnoke (Mar 29, 2021)

Settled! 
Who skied today?! Upper mountain shut off due to wind holds. Sun's out now, but still windy and below freezing. Tuesday, and Wednesday morning look like more fun...


----------



## HowieT2 (Mar 29, 2021)

ducky said:


> Paved roads on higher elevation steep slopes last about 3-5 years. Dirt roads easier to maintain. Also, the road falls within two towns' designations (not state).


I've often wondered about this as I careened from frost heave to pothole on route 100.  seems to me there hasnt been much progress in road construction tech since the days of the horse and buggy or the romans for that matter.  
That being said, I have about 100 yards of dirt road to get to my driveway at home in westchester.  The town has to do maintenance about 3-4 times a year on it.  While I understand paving is expensive, constantly having to repair adds up to.


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Mar 29, 2021)

Skied 10 to 1. Tale of two seasons. Practically mid winter at 10. Cold, windy as hell, HG/NL on wind hold. Fresh windblown 1-2". If waxed right, very nice "cream" on top of groomed. Exposed trails that were groomed early (Spring Fling) had a wind blown crust on top with fresh in the troughs. Upper Birdland was run of the day.
Then the sun came out, wind lessened (a bit) and all the groomers became excellent. Even though temps never got over 35, sun softened up the surface and everything improved. If it weren't for a work call at 2, I would have skied all day.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 29, 2021)

im cautiously optimistic for friday to sunday. tho i am not sure yet if i have sights set on northern vermont or western maine


----------



## ss20 (Mar 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im cautiously optimistic for friday to sunday. tho i am not sure yet if i have sights set on northern vermont or western maine



The further west you go the better the snow with this system.  ADK's have the best shot at 6"+, then northern VT.  Very questionable for western Maine right now.  Still a good amount of base left- I was doing some trees at SL over the weekend.  Saddleback tomorrow!


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im cautiously optimistic for friday to sunday. tho i am not sure yet if i have sights set on northern vermont or western maine


NoVT looking like its going to get more snow.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 30, 2021)

We...shall see......


----------



## Zand (Mar 30, 2021)

As far as New England goes... Wouldnt count out a Jay jackpot in this one.

Whiteface might do the best overall though.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2021)

Zand said:


> As far as New England goes... Wouldnt count out a Jay jackpot in this one.
> 
> Whiteface might do the best overall though.



yea i just booked a room in stowe for thurs-fri nights and will ski jay fri and bush sat. then rutland hotel sat, killignton or stratton sun.

may be last hurrah, tho id like to hump out one more k weekend.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 30, 2021)

Planning on Jay for Saturday.


----------



## ducky (Mar 30, 2021)

The frost line around here is 60”, more at elevation. If you are building a house, this is how deep your footings must be. Highways are built with this much base stone to avoid heaving. Expensive process. Look at 17. Gets repaved all the time and it’s currently like a mogul run.


----------



## Zand (Mar 30, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea i just booked a room in stowe for thurs-fri nights and will ski jay fri and bush sat. then rutland hotel sat, killignton or stratton sun.
> 
> may be last hurrah, tho id like to hump out one more k weekend.


I already told the wife that if Jay gets a foot then I'm not celebrating Easter this year lol.

It's killed me not going to Vermont this year (especially in mid January when they got crushed and NH got nothing). Glad Jay might give me a chance for one good Vermont day this year now that I'm good.

Is there an attestation form for the Indy Pass like they had for the Ikon pass? Haven't really paid attention.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2021)

no, not that i can recall. you just turn up and say you have indy and show your id. they look you up and issue you a ticket.

i am going to need to use my 25% off day. i have plenty of places i can ski for free but this is last licks and i am going Friday where there is snow.


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 30, 2021)

Zand said:


> Is there an attestation form for the Indy Pass like they had for the Ikon pass? Haven't really paid attention.


They just give you a little slip to sign with your name and phone number when you get the ticket at Jay.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 31, 2021)

I have to wait 16 more days to use my quad pass from last year.  I am not optimistic. I need an early-mid april miracle storm. Having lived in VT for 3 years I know it can happen, but I;m thinking I'll be screwed.

anyone hear if they are doing anything for those who could not use an old quadpass this year?

I played by the rules and all it Looks like 'm gonna get is screwed.


----------



## JEEPSKIBUM (Mar 31, 2021)

Is Out to Lunch still skiable back to Mountainside parking lot? Wonder if tomorrows precip will make it better?


----------



## cdskier (Mar 31, 2021)

JEEPSKIBUM said:


> Is Out to Lunch still skiable back to Mountainside parking lot? Wonder if tomorrows precip will make it better?


Not unless you like skiing dirt/grass/rocks. I walked over to it from Upper Village rd last Thursday I think it was and was amazed how much was gone. And we've had more wet weather and warm temps since then...


----------



## Hawk (Apr 1, 2021)

Yup, not even close.  It is also not long before they shut down the Gate house side all together I think.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 1, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Yup, not even close.  It is also not long before they shut down the Gate house side all together I think.


Probably after the weekend


----------



## JEEPSKIBUM (Apr 1, 2021)

Just need Gatehouse open thru the weekend.  Kids can walk back via Chez Henri.


----------



## pinnoke (Apr 1, 2021)

have fun sharing this around:








						Single-Day Lift Ticket on Vail Mountain Hits $1,566
					

Price is exactly double the cost of a full 2021-22 Epic Pass




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 1, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> have fun sharing this around:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the Vail Sucks thread already which seems appropriate


----------



## kingslug (Apr 1, 2021)

As good as the 3000 foot wind turbine for Mt Washington


----------



## Powder Whore (Apr 1, 2021)

“I ski here all the time – this will be day nine this season. When you have a house right on the mountain, you tend to use it.”

   I hope this is a hoax. It is 4/1.


----------



## WWF-VT (Apr 4, 2021)

Lincoln Peak was empty today with lifts pretty much ski on after noon.  Warmer and real spring skiing compared to Saturday.  My guess is that North Lynx is done after today.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 4, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Lincoln Peak was empty today with lifts pretty much ski on after noon.  Warmer and real spring skiing compared to Saturday.  My guess is that North Lynx is done after today.


The bumps on sunrise were soft with nice lines.


----------



## WinS (Apr 5, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Lincoln Peak was empty today with lifts pretty much ski on after noon.  Warmer and real spring skiing compared to Saturday.  My guess is that North Lynx is done after today.


The groomers have done a great job putting together a path on skier‘s right so maybe a day or two more, but it is getting close to the end with the spring sun.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 5, 2021)

WinS said:


> The groomers have done a great job putting together a path on skier‘s right so maybe a day or two more, but it is getting close to the end with the spring sun.


They've definitely done a great job there. I'm glad they've been able to keep the North Lynx area open this long. The Sunrise bumps were a lot of fun this weekend.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The Sunrise bumps were a lot of fun this weekend.


They were fun,... trekking through the mud,... not so fun


----------



## cdskier (Apr 5, 2021)

djd66 said:


> They were fun,... trekking through the mud,... not so fun



Hah! At least they let us walk through the mud and opened the trail though!


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## kingslug (Apr 5, 2021)

Playing in the mud never gets old.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Hah! At least they let us walk through the mud and opened the trail though!



i always ski with headphones on, so i'm functionally deaf.

i was taking my skis off to walk thru to the sunrise bumps, and these two dudes on skis behind me i'm pretty sure said something rude to me about being in their way. they then proceeded to try to ski over the mud pit. and i just casually walked thru and passed them and put my skis back on on the other side.


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## cdskier (Apr 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i always ski with headphones on, so i'm functionally deaf.
> 
> i was taking my skis off to walk thru to the sunrise bumps, and these two dudes on skis behind me i'm pretty sure said something rude to me about being in their way. they then proceeded to try to ski over the mud pit. and i just casually walked thru and passed them and put my skis back on on the other side.



I did see several people ski through the mud instead of take their skis off and walk. I like my skis a little too much to take that chance.


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## skiur (Apr 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I did see several people ski through the mud instead of take their skis off and walk. I like my skis a little too much to take that chance.



Skis I care about don't get used in april, may or October.  Mud/grass skiing is great, just lean back and don't try and turn.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 5, 2021)

skiur said:


> Skis I care about don't get used in april, may or October.  Mud/grass skiing is great, just lean back and don't try and turn.



ya but this wasnt skiing. it was a totally flat soaking wet mud pit that you needed to walk thru/around to access a trail. it was a downright silly thing to trudge thru in your skis.


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 5, 2021)

it’s still open people were going over ther more than birch they left that wonderful groomed flat corn untouched  
Everything got soft glades, birdland , rip 
Repeat  again tomorrow


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## WinS (Apr 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They've definitely done a great job there. I'm glad they've been able to keep the North Lynx area open this long. The Sunrise bumps were a lot of fun this weekend.


Still open Tuesday. Another nice job last night. Not sure it can last another day though, but if the path can be put together again Birch will be a place to be at10am. Then up to Ripcord.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 8, 2021)

Anyone with any visibility into mountian bike trail conditions?  Looks like theutre all closed on trail forks.


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## Castlerockrisk (Apr 8, 2021)

I was riding this morning on roads, the dirt roads are getting firmer but most if not all single track trails will need a few more weeks to firm up. Its important not to trench out the trails. 
There are great gravel and secondary road rides with great views to enjoy. Great time of year to ride and ski on same day. 

I am hoping that the Golf Course will open before the late May scheduled opening if conditions permit.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> I was riding this morning on roads, the dirt roads are getting firmer but most if not all single track trails will need a few more weeks to firm up. Its important not to trench out the trails.
> There are great gravel and secondary road rides with great views to enjoy. Great time of year to ride and ski on same day.
> 
> I am hoping that the Golf Course will open before the late May scheduled opening if conditions permit.


trails are open for biking at Stowe already.  Its been really dry.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 10, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> trails are open for biking at Stowe already.  Its been really dry.


I really love spring skiing!


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## WWF-VT (Apr 11, 2021)

Sunny and warm weekend was fun but took a toll on open terrain.  My guess is that it's down to Steins and Coffee Run by next weekend if not sooner.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Sunny and warm weekend was fun but took a toll on open terrain.  My guess is that it's down to Steins and Coffee Run by next weekend if not sooner.



I'm fearing that as well. Spring Fling itself has good cover, but Snowball will require serious work from the groomers to keep patched together. Snow seemed to be visibly melting every run this weekend. Loved the effort and dedication from patrol with shoveling snow this weekend to keep things open and skiable though.


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2021)

Down spout will be cooked so Heavens gate is out probably in the next day or two if not today unless they do some serious snow farming.  Same for Snowball.  I think they could manage to work some magic but I think it is only a day or two at most.  Especially if it rains. 

I will agree that it will most likely be Steins for the remainder.  Tons of snow there.  It will probably last 2 maybe 3 weeks if they choose unless we get really warm and wet weather.


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## flakeydog (Apr 12, 2021)

Also agree- I am usually pretty optimistic but I was was there on saturday (missed sunday) and Ripcord --> RIP, Organgrinder looked good but was much thinner than it looked from afar, Downspout was not doing well either.  Spring Fling was well covered but Snowball will be a challenge, though I have been surprised in many years how they manage to patch that trail together.  So HG definitely not in play for next weekend, question is if/when we are just down to Steins.


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2021)

To give a little visual representation of how quickly things are changing...here's a shot of Ripcord from roughly the same spot from both Friday afternoon and then Sunday morning (apparently I didn't take a photo on Saturday of Ripcord):


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## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

It was friggin hot Saturday...


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 12, 2021)

Holy Crap!


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## HowieT2 (Apr 12, 2021)

the fat lady is tuning up.


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## Tonyr (Apr 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> To give a little visual representation of how quickly things are changing...here's a shot of Ripcord from roughly the same spot from both Friday afternoon and then Sunday morning (apparently I didn't take a photo on Saturday of Ripcord):
> View attachment 51380



Wow, the end is near.....


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> Wow, the end is near.....



Stein's on the other hand though is still quite deep and edge to edge... (figured I better post something positive in here!)


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## Tonyr (Apr 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Stein's on the other hand though is still quite deep and edge to edge... (figured I better post something positive in here!)
> 
> View attachment 51389


That one will last a while longer. I'll take Stein's over Superstar anyday for spring bumps.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 12, 2021)

i will prob ski sugarbush saturday and killington sunday, and then thats it.

going all the way to sugarloaf/saddleback for what is available seems like a lot of effort for a minimal payoff

i got my first dose on Saturday and my second on May 1, and i am considering a May 15 weekend at A-Basin. its a little dream right now, haven't even verbalized to my girlfriend. somewhat fearful of reaction...


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i will prob ski sugarbush saturday and killington sunday, and then thats it.
> 
> going all the way to sugarloaf/saddleback for what is available seems like a lot of effort for a minimal payoff
> 
> i got my first dose on Saturday and my second on May 1, and i am considering a May 15 weekend at A-Basin. its a little dream right now, haven't even verbalized to my girlfriend. somewhat fearful of reaction...



Ah go for it!  We have been out there twice and plan on going around the end of May as well.


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## pinnoke (Apr 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i will prob ski sugarbush saturday and killington sunday, and then thats it.
> 
> going all the way to sugarloaf/saddleback for what is available seems like a lot of effort for a minimal payoff
> 
> i got my first dose on Saturday and my second on May 1, and i am considering a May 15 weekend at A-Basin. its a little dream right now, haven't even verbalized to my girlfriend. somewhat fearful of reaction...


I'm going to be skiing Copper tomorrow, and Breck on Wednesday before flying home to VT on Thursday...just these two days of skiing after accompanying my brother in law on his cross-country drive, from Long Island, for the first week of his newly-separated road odyssey (and he's not a skier!). It's going to start snowing tonight, and up to a couple of feet are in the ski country forecast over the next 5+ days! At least I'll get 2 days of skiing fun in, with a transplanted Sugarbush buddy, though I've missed some fabulous Sugarbush spring skiing the past week and a half, from everyone's reports. Oh well. As far as that little dream, before this 'call' came to help my brother in law, I was keeping a kayak.com window open on my computer, checking airfares and resort closing dates, for that last hurrah...and my wife (who's also a non-skier) didn't know about it. Well, I only needed a flight to get me home from Denver the night BEFORE my 39th anniversary!


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

Friday at K looks to be the big day.


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## Blurski (Apr 14, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Friday at K looks to be the big day.


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

There's like 5 of us currently looking at this..I think were good.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

its not the chatter on alpine zone that is concerning, its that fuckstick and his skiology facebook page that blasts information to people who frankly don't really deserve to have it. bunch of low effort fucking gapers.


----------



## slatham (Apr 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its not the chatter on alpine zone that is concerning, its that fuckstick and his skiology facebook page that blasts information to people who frankly don't really deserve to have it. bunch of low effort fucking gapers.


Yes especially when there are what, 50 total TRAILS open across the entire northeast? I would be coming up for this but without a really amazing dump that is enough in and of itself to open trails, not worth it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

slatham said:


> Yes especially when there are what, 50 total TRAILS open across the entire northeast? I would be coming up for this but without a really amazing dump that is enough in and of itself to open trails, not worth it.



i'm hoping for a good wet thick dump (lol - nice), my rock skis, and the ability to poach into terrain.

i pinged magic on Instagram to ask if there's a chance. there is no chance.


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

Yeah..FB certainly alerts the masses..Well..it is what it is. Good way to end the season though..or..extend it enough for a few more.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its not the chatter on alpine zone that is concerning, its that fuckstick and his skiology facebook page that blasts information to people who frankly don't really deserve to have it. bunch of low effort fucking gapers.



The part that bothers me the most is that I think a lot of his followers truly believe he's some sort of professional in terms of weather. When in reality he has 0 formal training or experience and yet often criticizes the true professionals in that field. And even worse is that people are actually donating money to him to "support" his "service".


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

most people on his page wouldn't have any idea it was about to dump in ski country if they weren't on his page. there is no chatter about this storm in ny media market, because its a non event here. the people on his page aren't the ones on alpine zone, single chair weather blog, opensnow, and first hand weather sources. its just this culture of oversharing on the internet that is so bogus. i know i get a slap on the wrists around here for talking about off map stuff, but there are like 50 regular posters here, and of those 50, maybe half who ski regularly in vermont and want to do the type of terrain i talk about, and i have no qualms sharing and learning from those posters here. maybe there are thousands of unregistered lurkers, but i really don't think so. on facebook this fuck is blasting information to 18000 members of his dumb page.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 14, 2021)

Wow, you sound like THE most hard core skier,... or at least you like to tell everyone you are.
As far as people knowing about this storm - are you kidding? Down here in Boston it’s on the front page of the Globe and on every news channel- including national.  Sure, people will go up, but it’s not because of some guy posting about a storm on the internets.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

cool.


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 14, 2021)

Still got my snows on


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## mikec142 (Apr 14, 2021)

STREETSKIER said:


> Still got my snows on


Just took mine off on Monday!


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

I was going to...but I usually wait till end of April...cause...ya never know.


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## tumbler (Apr 14, 2021)

I wouldn't worry about a FB wanna be Al Roker sending the masses to ski this weekend.  Almost everyone except the hard core and 2nd homeowners have moved on to spring activities.  Seasonal rentals are over, golf courses are open and kids have sports.  I know many locals that have moved on already.  10" of glop on top of bumps is not the easiest to ski...


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## slatham (Apr 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i pinged magic on Instagram to ask if there's a chance. there is no chance.



Yeah Geoff is pretty game to open when it snows but this storm would be a bridge too far on many levels.


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

Glop on top=good


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

Back on topic...

After today we're down to just Valley House for the rest of the season. I really don't think they're going to reopen any lifts this weekend no matter how much snow we get either.


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## Hawk (Apr 14, 2021)

I expected it go fast.  They are still saying they will be open to May 1, daily until 4/25.  So much for the 10" glop storm.  LOL

Answer me this.  On the web cam page, what lift and trail is that they are showing?.  I have not seen this view on the site before.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I expected it go fast.  They are still saying they will be open to May 1, daily until 4/25.  So much for the 10" glop storm.  LOL
> 
> Answer me this.  On the web cam page, what lift and trail is that they are showing?.  I have not seen this view on the site before.



that is the terrain park at mount ellen downhill of and looker's left of the main chair to mid mountain


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I expected it go fast.  They are still saying they will be open to May 1, daily until 4/25.  So much for the 10" glop storm.  LOL
> 
> Answer me this.  On the web cam page, what lift and trail is that they are showing?.  I have not seen this view on the site before.



I assume you mean the Terrain Park cam. That's the Sunshine Quad at ME next to Riemergasse.


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## Hawk (Apr 14, 2021)

Holy Shit.  All that snow is gone?  That's why I did not recognize it.  it was 10 feet deep like Steins.  They must of mowed it down with a cat or something.
Also I don't understand why they had to remove the view of Lincoln base that has been there all year.  Who want's to see the empty slope.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Holy Shit.  All that snow is gone?  That's why I did not recognize it.  it was 10 feet deep like Steins.  They must of mowed it down with a cat or something.
> Also I don't understand why they had to remove the view of Lincoln base that has been there all year.  Who want's to see the empty slope.



Yea...that is strange that they took that LP cam off the website. I don't really see a reason behind that. I also don't know why the webcam page still says they're "upgrading" the webcams and will have "new webcams available soon". The 2nd sentence about the lift-line cams not accurately reflecting waits and capacity would have been a sufficient statement this season if they didn't want to post all the other cams on the website.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

I just read Josh Fox's latest blog post. He's saying this could be the biggest storm of the season (I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this). His predictions are 4-12 below 2000' and 10-20 above that. Figures we would get a big storm once all the rest of the snow from the season is melted...


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

the two biggest storms this year were before there was a base and after it melted. i know the December storm didn't really touch sugarbush, but it was easily the biggest single event from killington south


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the two biggest storms this year were before there was a base and after it melted. i know the December storm didn't really touch sugarbush, but it was easily the biggest single event from killington south


I think the fact that SB didn't get much from that one is why I blocked that early one from my mind and keep forgetting about that.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2021)

not to dwell on regrets, but i had my airbnb near sugarbush for the December storm, and i ate the cost of a motel near stratton the night before the big storm, so i wouldn't need to drive south during it. but i was too dumb and cheap to hold that hotel room one more night, and went back to sugarbush after storm skiing stratton. the leftovers down south would have been primo that day, and the weathervane motel is $70. dumb cheap fuck over here.


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## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

Hunter got 20 inches 12-17..that was the most from my notes.
Then in Feb it snowed about 5 days in a row..that was good.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2021)

timing is everything.  NWS has 8-13" lincoln peak at 3k.


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 14, 2021)

I try not to second guess mountain ops decisions as I have little idea what factors are behind them.  But the one complaint I would have is the lack of the web-cams this season.  It shouldn't be that hard to take care of this issue.


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## kingslug (Apr 15, 2021)

A lot of places had these cam "issues".....


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## djd66 (Apr 15, 2021)

ALL The cams are 100% working.  I never updated the Sugarbush app and I am able to see every view that they previously had been showing. (Include Catslerock and HG). I figured this hack out when they first stop showing certain views on the website  and decided to not upgrad because of it. The CAMS are really the only thing I use on the app.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

djd66 said:


> ALL The cams are 100% working.  I never updated the Sugarbush app and I am able to see every view that they previously had been showing. (Include Catslerock and HG). I figured this hack out when they first stop showing certain views on the website  and decided to not upgrad because of it. The CAMS are really the only thing I use on the app.



Yup...very true. I've been accessing the cams all winter to check on lines at different lifts (but have kept that quiet as I didn't want someone to actually turn them off).


----------



## slatham (Apr 15, 2021)

Yikes lower Spring Fling is close to toast. Too bad no base for upcoming snow.


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## djd66 (Apr 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yup...very true. I've been accessing the cams all winter to check on lines at different lifts (but have kept that quiet as I didn't want someone to actually turn them off).


I just don’t get it at this point in the season.  Why are they showing the Park as the only view? Are they hoping to turn off someone deciding on coming up to ski? Strange.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I just don’t get it at this point in the season.  Why are they showing the Park as the only view? Are they hoping to turn off someone deciding on coming up to ski? Strange.


Maybe they're concerned that with only VH running you'll be able to see a line in the LP view webcam and don't want that seen?


----------



## Hawk (Apr 15, 2021)

I am sure they shut off the base view because of the very real possibility that with only one lift and a snow storm in the forecast, there might be a huge line?  Just a guess.  And you know the paranoid few will make a huge deal about the covid ridden masses coming up from the flat lands to contaminate the super safe few.  LOL


----------



## WWF-VT (Apr 15, 2021)

LOL....there isn't going to be a huge line.   The season is essentially done at this time.  If there is a significant snow fall there will be more cars in the parking lot and people skinning Mt Ellen than you will see riding the Valley House chair at Lincoln Peak.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 15, 2021)

Maybe, but I think what people are missing is that all the new IKON people are a different lot then our regular community from years past.  It would not surprise me at all if there was a big line on Saturday noontime especially if the weather clears.  We will see.  I will be in that line at least for a while.  So will all my friends.  Mt Ellen will be where all the locals will be and the usual skinning suspects.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 15, 2021)

i am going to killington saturday, and sugarbush sunday, which is opposite my usual routine - i like a shorter drive home Sunday when possible. but killington will get more snow, have more lifts turning, is more likely to re-open closed terrain, and most people have spent their 5/7 ikon days already hopefully.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

With only VH, it wouldn't take much to generate a line (especially as we're still not fully loading chairs). I also wouldn't be surprised at all to see a decent line on Saturday. I'll be in it...


----------



## flakeydog (Apr 15, 2021)

I am usually an optimist but this storm will likely not move the chains, even at 12+.  Without a base and how warm its been last week, snow will best accumulate on existing snow.  Ground will be covered but it will not last, but the mountain will be open for the next 1-2 weeks with Steins at least.

This is a flashback to the 2011-12 season.  Sugarbush closes on April 8th after several days of temps in the 70s and even 80s late March.  Then it gets cold and we ski a crusty Steins to wrap up a shortened season.  Later that week, it snows, a lot, but it is not enough and Sugarbush remains closed.  Not ready to hang em up yet, we trek to Killington to get out at least one more time.  They got 20 inches but it went fast.  It remained cold for a few days but we were there 4 days post-storm (as it warmed up) and anything not covered previously was pretty much gone already.

Here is the Mansfield snow stake from now vs 2012.  It picked up 20 inches mid April (went from 27 up to 47) and then melted.  We are only at 11 right now, ouch!  Snow or rain, we need precipitation as it is super dry out there.  Lake Champlain was very low last fall and is at least 2+ feet lower than it should be right now.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> I am usually an optimist but this storm will likely not move the chains, even at 12+.  Without a base and how warm its been last week, snow will best accumulate on existing snow.  Ground will be covered but it will not last, but the mountain will be open for the next 1-2 weeks with Steins at least.



I agree. I just hope other people don't see a storm coming and think we're going to magically have more of the mountain open. I don't see it happening either personally, but I'm worried others will expect that. I'm guessing my neighbor plans to come up as their condo is being cleaned right now. Last weekend they weren't up and I thought they were done for the season.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I agree. I just hope other people don't see a storm coming and think we're going to magically have more of the mountain open. I don't see it happening either personally, but I'm worried others will expect that. I'm guessing my neighbor plans to come up as their condo is being cleaned right now. Last weekend they weren't up and I thought they were done for the season.



Any chance they re-open Heaven's Gate?  Should be a foot+ even at the base of that chair and I'm sure there's some snowmaking piles left up there.  


As Kusty said Killington will most certainly re-open terrain.  Lots of low-angle, grassy terrain above 3000' there.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Any chance they re-open Heaven's Gate?  Should be a foot+ even at the base of that chair and I'm sure there's some snowmaking piles left up there.



My gut feeling is no. You'd either need to reopen SB as well or have the Reverse Traverse/HG Traverse route open and skiable (heavy wet snow on a fairly flat traverse isn't exactly a great combination from the skier's perspective on traveling the traverse...). Someone asked the same question on SB's Instragram post last night but there hasn't been a response yet from SB. I'll keep an eye on that and see if they end up posting a response though.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yup...very true. I've been accessing the cams all winter to check on lines at different lifts (but have kept that quiet as I didn't want someone to actually turn them off).



Coincidence that shortly after djd and myself posted about this that the LP webcam was taken offline entirely and that the Super Bravo cam was re-positioned to point/zoom in on Stein's it seems? (Not that that is a bad thing to get a good view of Stein's from a webcam).


----------



## tumbler (Apr 15, 2021)

I think no chance they open other lifts besides VH.  Lifties and other staff have been laid off.


----------



## slatham (Apr 15, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I think no chance they open other lifts besides VH.  Lifties and other staff have been laid off.



And perhaps they already started summer prep and literally can't run SB?

Also, if I were management I'd be quiet until the snow is on the ground. Assuming I had flexibility to do something other run VH and maybe open Twist/Moonshine/Mall.  
Of course the delta between summit snow and base elevation snow is likely to be historic.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 15, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I think no chance they open other lifts besides VH.  Lifties and other staff have been laid off.


agreed, unfortunately.


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 15, 2021)

How much snow needs to be on a trail to safely open it?  I haven't seen them recently, but I would assume that Twist and Moonshine are totally bare.  Could this storm conceivably drop enough to open them safely?


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 15, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> LOL....there isn't going to be a huge line.   The season is essentially done at this time.  If there is a significant snow fall there will be more cars in the parking lot and people skinning Mt Ellen than you will see riding the Valley House chair at Lincoln Peak.



When ever I skied Sugarbush late season, VH always hade a pretty decent line - not huge but there was a wait.  I always made the mistake of going on Saturday too!  It was really bad when there was a double there so it is much improved now.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 15, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> How much snow needs to be on a trail to safely open it?  I haven't seen them recently, but I would assume that Twist and Moonshine are totally bare.  Could this storm conceivably drop enough to open them safely?


More than what is forecasted but with the skeleton staff of patrollers they are not going to be dropping ropes.  They are hanging on for marketing at this point with the crappy coverage, lots of money being lost this time of year.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 15, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> How much snow needs to be on a trail to safely open it?  I haven't seen them recently, but I would assume that Twist and Moonshine are totally bare.  Could this storm conceivably drop enough to open them safely?



Probably not on terrain that is that low.  As someone said this storm is going to be EXTREMELY elevation dependent.  Case-in-point, temps are just above freezing at the top of Lincoln per the snow report and it should change to snow in the next couple hours, but it's still 44 degrees at the base and will be raining down their til nightfall.  

The base of Lincoln is 1,600 feet.  The base of K1 at Killington is 2,400.  The top of Valley House is 3,000 feet while Killington had lots of terrain above that elevation still open (North Ridge, most of Canyon, tops of Snowdon and Superstar.


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## Hawk (Apr 15, 2021)

Even if it snowed a foot down to the base, this snow is going to be heavy wet on top of warm ground.  There is no way the will reopen anything.  Once the sun comes out it will be gone in a day or two.  There is more rain in the forecast for Sunday also.  Go ski Steins and poach if you have to find out.  I will bet this kind of snow will stop you in your tracks.  I'm good with skiing steins and maybe spring fling.


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## kingslug (Apr 15, 2021)

Skiing Friday is key as it will ..well either slowly accumulate or major dump..either way I think its way better to ski it as it comes rather than wait for the whole dump. Saturday will be tricky if its a mass of glop.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

Not that anyone should be surprised, but SB confirmed in the afternoon Snow Report that they will not open any additional lifts. They did leave open the possibility of opening additional terrain off VH though. I don't really see us getting enough snow at low elevations on bare, wet ground to make that happen, but you never know.



> We're rolling on Valley House lift for the rest of the season, with mid-week openings at 10AM, weekends at 9AM and closes at 5PM every day. *We may decide to open additional terrain, depending on snow accumulations, but it will all be accessed from Valley House.*


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Apr 15, 2021)

From the snow report:


> Skinning is not currently permitted on Super Bravo and Heaven's Gate areas.


Odds this changes tomorrow? Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission? Skinning up VH Traverse > Jester for an OG lap or 2 could be nice. Coming down at an inch per hour now based on the mid mtn stake cam...


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## mikec142 (Apr 16, 2021)

The webcam that now shows Steins is very helpful right now.


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## Powder Whore (Apr 16, 2021)

There's a handful of days left in the season and its snowing. Either you're skiing or you're not. Does the webcam really make a difference?


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## mikec142 (Apr 16, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> There's a handful of days left in the season and its snowing. Either you're skiing or you're not. Does the webcam really make a difference?


I was making a bit of a joke.  Hence the winking emoji.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Apr 16, 2021)

Skiers left of Stein's this morning was 

Apparently one more surge of heavy snow mid afternoon before tapering back to lighter snow in the evening. Summit snow stake has been showing nothing w/ the wind but it looks like the storm total is 7" so far mid-mtn. KMart, Mt. Ellen tour, or hold out for some permissible uphill access to HG terrain tomorrow? Decisions decisions...


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## ss20 (Apr 16, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Skiers left of Stein's this morning was
> 
> Apparently one more surge of heavy snow mid afternoon before tapering back to lighter snow in the evening. Summit snow stake has been showing nothing w/ the wind but it looks like the storm total is 7" so far mid-mtn. KMart, Mt. Ellen tour, or hold out for some permissible uphill access to HG terrain tomorrow? Decisions decisions...



I don't want to sound like a Killington Fanboy as this is probably my 5th-ish positive Killington post in the SB thread!  BUT...as far as lift-served terrain tomorrow Killington will have an infinitely better product than SB and all at higher elevation.  North Ridge, Canyon, Superstar, K1, Snowdon 6 (probably the triple too), even Ramshead all spinning still.  And also Killington can open up the top of Needle's, top of South Ridge, and top of Skyeburst IF they drop the nets and open up the Snowshed Crossover in its entirety.  That's a lot of work so I'm not sure they'll do that but it's an easy poach once it's tracked out.


----------



## CastlerockMRV (Apr 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I don't want to sound like a Killington Fanboy as this is probably my 5th-ish positive Killington post in the SB thread!  BUT...as far as lift-served terrain tomorrow Killington will have an infinitely better product than SB and all at higher elevation.  North Ridge, Canyon, Superstar, K1, Snowdon 6 (probably the triple too), even Ramshead all spinning still.  And also Killington can open up the top of Needle's, top of South Ridge, and top of Skyeburst IF they drop the nets and open up the Snowshed Crossover in its entirety.  That's a lot of work so I'm not sure they'll do that but it's an easy poach once it's tracked out.



I'm leaning in that direction too tbh. Saved 6 out of my 7 my Killington days for May Superstar bumps so might as well use one tomorrow, especially if they might pick up another 8" today on what already fell last night. Just hope it's not a total zoo!


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 16, 2021)

killington is the obvious play tomorrow for many reasons. i'm also very hopeful that most ikon holders have already exhausted their allotments.


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## djd66 (Apr 16, 2021)

And they have 7 working web cams.


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## ss20 (Apr 16, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> I'm leaning in that direction too tbh. Saved 6 out of my 7 my Killington days for May Superstar bumps so might as well use one tomorrow, especially if they might pick up another 8" today on what already fell last night. Just hope it's not a total zoo!



I would not save for May.  They blew very lean on Supe this year.  I was thinking first weekend in May would be it, but this storm and a colder, possibly snowy week next week will certainly help them.  

Not to say they didn't blow snow.  They went deeper than I've seen in many years on Outer Limits and Skyeburst trying to keep Bear going further in the season to have an additional base area to spread people out.  Unfortunately with the warm spring Bear still got nuked.  OL was still very awesome and deep last weekend on its last day though!


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 16, 2021)

i was holding out hope they'd re-open bear, but i don't think that is happening. needles eye and skyeship stage 2 maybe...


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 16, 2021)

F


CastlerockMRV said:


> From the snow report:
> 
> Odds this changes tomorrow? Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission? Skinning up VH Traverse > Jester for an OG lap or 2 could be nice. Coming down at an inch per hour now based on the mid mtn stake


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2021)

Wow...it is dumping out there. There's about 2-3" now sticking in my parking lot that wasn't there at 1PM. Personally I didn't care for the conditions this afternoon. Went out at 1PM and took 2 runs and called it a day. I wasn't a fan of the surface underneath the new snow on Snowball/Spring Fling. Maybe Steins was better this morning, but I wasn't super crazy about it either when I skied it (low vis wasn't helping though...).


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I don't want to sound like a Killington Fanboy as this is probably my 5th-ish positive Killington post in the SB thread!  BUT...as far as lift-served terrain tomorrow Killington will have an infinitely better product than SB and all at higher elevation.  North Ridge, Canyon, Superstar, K1, Snowdon 6 (probably the triple too), even Ramshead all spinning still.  And also Killington can open up the top of Needle's, top of South Ridge, and top of Skyeburst IF they drop the nets and open up the Snowshed Crossover in its entirety.  That's a lot of work so I'm not sure they'll do that but it's an easy poach once it's tracked out.


Personally I'm inclined to agree. Not that I have an interest in driving down there, but they're definitely much better setup to take advantage of a storm like this late in the season. If this storm was a week or 2 earlier it would have worked out well at SB with the terrain/lifts they still had open at the time.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Personally I'm inclined to agree. Not that I have an interest in driving down there, but they're definitely much better setup to take advantage of a storm like this late in the season. If this storm was a week or 2 earlier it would have worked out well at SB with the terrain/lifts they still had open at the time.


If only mt Ellen was open.  Laps off the summit chair.  Oh well.


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## kingslug (Apr 17, 2021)

ok..K was the place to be..with 15 inches..and it snowed more today. And yes..it got very busy today at noon...very busy.


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## skierinri (Apr 17, 2021)

It got busy at noon?? Did you get there at noon?? It felt like a winter holiday week most of the day


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 17, 2021)

i started skiing at open and went sixpack>north ridge, took 3 laps on north ridge before a line formed, headed to canyon quad at 9 when it opened, and lapped it ski-on til 11. helps that the only way to get to canyon are blacks, mostly ungroomed, and some technically closed. went to superstar at 11 and the line was physically super long but it was really because they didn't have the corrals set up and it was a single file line. wait time was <10 min. then i went back over to the six and it was crazy, so i went to rams head, which was not ski on but like a 2 min wait. i never really ski ramshead, but with the fresh snow and the easy poaches it was fun. i didnt realize that poma lift was over there, and its liftline skied great. good day at killington. too many people but they were avoidable. i blame skiology facebook. i skied 26k vert in 6:15. normally at killington i can ski 40k in a 6 hour session, especially with no trees, so yea, some lines.

first few runs on ridge run, power line, side of rime, escapade, catwalk, downdraft were powder skiing. it got chowder chopped and a bit manky as the day went


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## ss20 (Apr 17, 2021)

I've never seen a more blatant disrespect for ropes than today!   Tons of adventure skiing.  East Fall had the quad-fecta of ice, rocks, dirt, oh and a rapidly eroding ice bridge over the sizable stream that runs under that trail.  Dipper was fun but technically closed.  Downdraft was my ROTD, with Ovation a close second.  While ropes were still up, Needle's and High Road skied fair and K pushed the Crossover nets over so people could get by....kudos for that.   

Wet snow that got wetter as the day continued.  I have zero idea what to expect tomorrow for conditions.  Hopefully we freeze tonight and let the groomers do their magic with plenty of new material to work with.


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## kingslug (Apr 18, 2021)

skierinri said:


> It got busy at noon?? Did you get there at noon?? It felt like a winter holiday week most of the day


I was there Friday and Saturday..At noon the lines got super long. I left.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 18, 2021)

Line at the valley house appeared long in the morning, but it really was that it was single spaced into a double corral.  Dissipated for the most part by noon.


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## ducky (Apr 18, 2021)

Isn't there a Killington forum for this stuff?


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## skiur (Apr 18, 2021)

ducky said:


> Isn't there a Killington forum for this stuff?



Well Killington is in the northeast and this is a northeast ski forum..... shouldn't be in the sugarbush thread, K needs it's own thread.


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## mrvpilgrim (Apr 18, 2021)

Steins got a grooming last night
what a difference from yesterday
my five year old grandson took his first run on steins this morning
next year paradise
snowball patched between twist and moonshine the rest still in good shape
spring fling still side to side coverage
lower snow ball some hunting and pecking but still ski able
Lines were minimal this morning


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## cdskier (Apr 18, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Line at the valley house appeared long in the morning, but it really was that it was single spaced into a double corral.  Dissipated for the most part by noon.



Yea...even when it was all the way up the hill to the "Slow" sign it still was only a 5 minute line or so yesterday. Of course if someone saw it from a webcam they could easily say it "looked long".

Virtually ski on most of the morning today. Longest line was about 1-2 minutes at a couple points. Steins is starting to get some nice soft corn bumps on it now. Was going to stop around noon, but I was having too much fun on Steins.


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## teleo (Apr 18, 2021)

Steins was awesome today.  Sun came out eventually to cap off the day.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 19, 2021)

skiur said:


> Well Killington is in the northeast and this is a northeast ski forum..... shouldn't be in the sugarbush thread, K needs it's own thread.



Right!  That way there is a place to talk about Sugarbush!


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## jaybird (Apr 20, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Right!  That way there is a place to talk about Sugarbush!


Killingtonzone serves that role ..
Albeit most K patrons are Joeys.
Steins beats Superstar for constant pitch.
.. it's just Better Here


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## CastlerockMRV (Apr 20, 2021)

Thought this was cool. Current snow depth readings on Stein's.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

CastlerockMRV said:


> Thought this was cool. Current snow depth readings on Stein's.



Thanks for sharing that I saw the depths from the week prior, but hadn't seen these new ones. Interesting to compare (I'm guessing those 12' spots that disappeared were moved around a bit and didn't simply melt...)


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2021)

Where are you guys getting that map?  That's pretty cool.


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2021)

Saw ad in SAM for lift maint manager.  Not sure what the current structure of the dept is but more turnover bums me out.  I thought they really turned it around after having a bad year with lift shutdowns a few years ago.  Hopefully they keep consistently spinning.


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2021)

What is SAM?  Dam acronyms.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Where are you guys getting that map?  That's pretty cool.


The one I had was from a recent post on the SugarBlog on SB's website. I searched around a bit for the one CastlerockMRV posted and looks like it came from John Bleh's twitter feed and Sugarbush's twitter feed retweeted it (I don't follow twitter, so never would have found that one on my own).


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> What is SAM?  Dam acronyms.


https://www.saminfo.com/ (Ski Area Management)


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2021)

SAM is Ski Area Management magazine/website.


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## Hawk (Apr 20, 2021)

How do you guys find this stuff?  I had no idea.  I guess I don't surf the net enough.  LOL


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

I peak at the https://blog.sugarbush.com/ site once in a while to see if they have any interesting info. Not the same as when we used to have regular "Win's Word" updates there, but still sometimes interesting info (like the Stein's snow-depth one).


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> How do you guys find this stuff?  I had no idea.  I guess I don't surf the net enough.  LOL


Got to do something at work


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## CastlerockMRV (Apr 21, 2021)

Yeah - I found it on Twitter: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384285888587309063
The week over week change is attributed to pushing snow down onto Coffee Run. Genuine snow farming to keep the season going! Pretty neat.


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## Blurski (Apr 21, 2021)

Anyone know what time they have been grooming spring fling?


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## tumbler (Apr 21, 2021)

This time of year it is normally in the morning just before opening.


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## spiderpig (Apr 23, 2021)

A groomer had an accident all over Stein's. Delayed opening until 11 today.


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## cdskier (Apr 23, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> A groomer had an accident all over Stein's. Delayed opening until 11 today.
> View attachment 51546



I saw the groomer parked 1/4 of the way down Stein's on the webcam this morning when I woke up and suspected something was wrong... Right now I see Stein's is marked closed on the trail report. Any idea if that is just a temporary delay? Suppose I'll find out myself later this afternoon after work when I go out for a few runs.


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## Blurski (Apr 23, 2021)

I cant get there until tomorrow morning, so hope it is stuck there all day.


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## spiderpig (Apr 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I saw the groomer parked 1/4 of the way down Stein's on the webcam this morning when I woke up and suspected something was wrong... Right now I see Stein's is marked closed on the trail report. Any idea if that is just a temporary delay? Suppose I'll find out myself later this afternoon after work when I go out for a few runs.


They have to clean up all the fluid, so it depends on how quickly that goes. They thought it would definitely be done by tomorrow.


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## tumbler (Apr 23, 2021)

Blowing a hose on something that steep will make the most experienced operator pucker a bit.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 23, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> They have to clean up all the fluid, so it depends on how quickly that goes. They thought it would definitely be done by tomorrow.


what a chore that must be!


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## WinS (Apr 23, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> what a chore that must be!


It is. It could be open today but for sure tomorrow. i believe Skier’s right was groomed out this morning so it would ski ok today if it opens. Fortunately, Sugarbush has two winches on the LP side.


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## Newpylong (Apr 23, 2021)

That must have been one bad hydraulic leak. I've never seen anyone take the time to remove it, we usually just tilled it under.


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## WinS (Apr 24, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> That must have been one bad hydraulic leak. I've never seen anyone take the time to remove it, we usually just tilled it under.


This does not “just get tilled under”. A spill like this is a serious environmental issue, is a reportable event to the State and Sugarbush has very strict clean-up protocols which it follows. Yesterday the patrollers and others shoveled the snow where the hydraulic fluid was into plastic bags and  transported in them sleds down to Base area where it could be discarded properly as a hazardous waste material. One does not want stuff like hydraulic fluid getting into the water shed. It took the team all day to clean-up the spill. In speaking with a couple of patrollers at the top of the Valley lift, I learned that a number has been called and asked to wok even though they had left for the season. They are a very dedicated group of professionals. I think a few people got in a run just before the lift closed at 5pm, and the morning report shows that Stein‘s was groomed again last night, so it should be sweet and it softens up this Morning.


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## Hawk (Apr 24, 2021)

All things look great.  Small crowd today.  Headed out now and they are still parking in the main lot.


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## Newpylong (Apr 24, 2021)

WinS said:


> This does not “just get tilled under”. A spill like this is a serious environmental issue, is a reportable event to the State and Sugarbush has very strict clean-up protocols which it follows. Yesterday the patrollers and others shoveled the snow where the hydraulic fluid was into plastic bags and  transported in them sleds down to Base area where it could be discarded properly as a hazardous waste material. One does not want stuff like hydraulic fluid getting into the water shed. It took the team all day to clean-up the spill. In speaking with a couple of patrollers at the top of the Valley lift, I learned that a number has been called and asked to wok even though they had left for the season. They are a very dedicated group of professionals. I think a few people got in a run just before the lift closed at 5pm, and the morning report shows that Stein‘s was groomed again last night, so it should be sweet and it softens up this Morning.


I think you'd be surprised at how few cat operators are going to get out of their warm machine at 2am in -5 to shovel up a small hydro leak. However I didn't say THIS spill would. Considering you could see it from the parking lot the entire length of Stein's, it must have been bad. That is a serious clean up job they deserve serious props.


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## cdskier (Apr 25, 2021)

WinS said:


> This does not “just get tilled under”. A spill like this is a serious environmental issue, is a reportable event to the State and Sugarbush has very strict clean-up protocols which it follows. Yesterday the patrollers and others shoveled the snow where the hydraulic fluid was into plastic bags and  transported in them sleds down to Base area where it could be discarded properly as a hazardous waste material. One does not want stuff like hydraulic fluid getting into the water shed. It took the team all day to clean-up the spill. In speaking with a couple of patrollers at the top of the Valley lift, I learned that a number has been called and asked to wok even though they had left for the season. They are a very dedicated group of professionals. I think a few people got in a run just before the lift closed at 5pm, and the morning report shows that Stein‘s was groomed again last night, so it should be sweet and it softens up this Morning.



Great team effort on Friday to get Stein's cleaned up and ready for Saturday. Saturday was a great classic day of Spring skiing. Steins was just terrific and it was so much fun to see how much it changed from run to run. Skied non-stop from 9-3 before my legs had enough. Great job by the groomers too to keep Snowball open to get to Spring Fling which was fun to mix things up and rest a bit.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 27, 2021)

i had a really nice mellow weekend at home, the first in a very long time, but a not small part of me regrets not skiing saturday.

this weekend I have my second vaccine dose on saturday, so that's out

so if anything, maybe 1-2 more days on superstar in mid-may, but I am probably done.


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## mikec142 (Apr 27, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i had a really nice mellow weekend at home, the first in a very long time, but a not small part of me regrets not skiing saturday.
> 
> this weekend I have my second vaccine dose on saturday, so that's out
> 
> so if anything, maybe 1-2 more days on superstar in mid-may, but I am probably done.


It's definitely a weird feeling.  Almost like an on/off switch that gets flipped.  I go from having zero issues with driving 5.5 hours in each direction to ski to not wanting to drive 1 mile to the local grocery store.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 27, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> It's definitely a weird feeling.  Almost like an on/off switch that gets flipped.  I go from having zero issues with driving 5.5 hours in each direction to ski to not wanting to drive 1 mile to the local grocery store.


Wow! It's a good thing you can't ski year round in these parts...
I've skied in New England during the months of October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, June and July 5th (at tuck's). Been down south doing it in August so I've missed only September. Just gotta string that together in the same year and I would be a happy fella! Wish I wasn't done this year :-(


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 27, 2021)

i typically ski from november to may. i started in December this year and will likely miss May, but covid + slow start + bad spring.

if I lived out west I would probably hike to ski a little bit in most months if not all


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## kingslug (Apr 27, 2021)

Was nice not driving 600  miles on a weekend..but bike season starts soon..so it will be down to 300 miles. And I'm going back to taking the trains..can't take the traffic and the driving..my car can't take it either..and it will be 400 a month cheaper..and less stress.


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## ss20 (Apr 27, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Was nice not driving 600  miles on a weekend..but bike season starts soon..so it will be down to 300 miles. And I'm going back to taking the trains..can't take the traffic and the driving..my car can't take it either..and it will be 400 a month cheaper..and less stress.



You putting in liquid gold as a gasoline additive?  Or is your job to be a Federal Toll Bridge Inspector and you lap the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, and Triborough bridges all day?


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## kingslug (Apr 28, 2021)

Parking: 408.50
tolls : 60.00
gas 450.00       918.00 a month to drive and park in NYC

train 335.00
parking 70.0
gas 40           445.00 train


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## ss20 (Apr 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Parking: 408.50
> tolls : 60.00
> gas 450.00       918.00 a month to drive and park in NYC
> 
> ...



Both of those are nucking futs lol.


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## Smellytele (Apr 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Both of those are nucking futs lol.


Drive option is more than my mortgage.


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## cdskier (Apr 28, 2021)

How is gas 450 a month for commuting? Based on your profile, you're in Stamford. Stamford to NYC round trip would be 80-90 miles a day. So let's say 450 miles a week. Even if you had a car that only got 20mpg, that's 22.5 gallons of gas per week or about 90 gallons a month. You'd have to be paying $5/gallon to hit $450 in gas expenses.

Anyway, those costs in general are a big reason for why I'd never want to commute into NYC.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> How is gas 450 a month for commuting? Based on your profile, you're in Stamford. Stamford to NYC round trip would be 80-90 miles a day. So let's say 450 miles a week. Even if you had a car that only got 20mpg, that's 22.5 gallons of gas per week or about 90 gallons a month. You'd have to be paying $5/gallon to hit $450 in gas expenses.
> 
> Anyway, those costs in general are a big reason for why I'd never want to commute into NYC.


What do commuting costs to NYC have to do with Sugarbush?


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## Hawk (Apr 28, 2021)

If there is snow we ski.  It always has been that way since the 80's  I'll say that not having the full apre at Castlerock/Rumbles/on the plaza with bands and all kinds of comradery with my friends was kind of a drag.  The first time I had beers on the plaza was 2 weeks ago.  The rest of the year was on my deck or someone else's deck.  I will not miss this years protocols.

To me bike season is all year so there is no real switchover except we do much more road biking.  I think we had 3 weeks on the North Shore of Boston that we did not mountain bike but we did XC ski.  Great year for biking.


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## cdskier (Apr 28, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> What do commuting costs to NYC have to do with Sugarbush?



I'm not the one that started that discussion...doesn't mean I can't be curious about the numbers though.


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## kingslug (Apr 28, 2021)

Back to skiing..can't wait to ski more at the Bush with the new pass...It was better in many ways than Stowe
yes gas calc was off...gas= 225.00 month just for commute
yes..it all sux


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 28, 2021)

Hawk said:


> If there is snow we ski.  It always has been that way since the 80's  I'll say that not having the full apre at Castlerock/Rumbles/on the plaza with bands and all kinds of comradery with my friends was kind of a drag.  The first time I had beers on the plaza was 2 weeks ago.  The rest of the year was on my deck or someone else's deck.  I will not miss this years protocols.
> 
> To me bike season is all year so there is no real switchover except we do much more road biking.  I think we had 3 weeks on the North Shore of Boston that we did not mountain bike but we did XC ski.  Great year for biking.


did my first warm weather shorts bike ride this past saturday.  felt good.

I thoroughly enjoyed this ski season.  It was infinitely better than what I was expecting.  My wife, on the other hand, had a much bigger problem with the pandemic related changes.  She hated booting up in the parking lot and having restrictions on going inside.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Back to skiing..can't wait to ski more at the Bush with the new pass...It was better in many ways than Stowe.


let's all hope/pray we got some more snow next season.


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## kingslug (Apr 28, 2021)

I got lucky..snowed every day i was there..


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## mikec142 (Apr 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> did my first warm weather shorts bike ride this past saturday.  felt good.
> 
> I thoroughly enjoyed this ski season.  It was infinitely better than what I was expecting.  My wife, on the other hand, had a much bigger problem with the pandemic related changes.  She hated booting up in the parking lot and having restrictions on going inside.


I also thoroughly enjoyed the season and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it.  Zero issues for me with booting up at the car...I've always done it.  It would be nice for my wife to be able to hang at the lodge (she doesn't really ski much these days), but she also has little problem occupying herself while I ski with the kids.   Skiing was one of the few things that really kept me sane during the colder months.  I would have been pretty miserable if the season didn't pan out the way it did.

While I'm sure it wasn't great for Sugarbush, I found the lack of lift lines to be wonderful.  Even the most busy day that I experienced this season was well within a reasonable wait.

The thing I missed was going out to dinner.  Although to be frank, even that wasn't so bad...did a lot of take out.  The kids were happy cuz they could watch netflix.  I was okay with it because I'm exhausted after skiing anyway.  That said, eating in your hotel room isn't ideal.  Got better as the season went on and you could eat in the hotel lobby.


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## kingslug (Apr 28, 2021)

At Hunter I ate in my truck..which was great as I had no crowds and the music was good


----------



## cdskier (Apr 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I also thoroughly enjoyed the season and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it.  Zero issues for me with booting up at the car...I've always done it.  It would be nice for my wife to be able to hang at the lodge (she doesn't really ski much these days), but she also has little problem occupying herself while I ski with the kids.   Skiing was one of the few things that really kept me sane during the colder months.  I would have been pretty miserable if the season didn't pan out the way it did.
> 
> While I'm sure it wasn't great for Sugarbush, I found the lack of lift lines to be wonderful.  Even the most busy day that I experienced this season was well within a reasonable wait.
> 
> The thing I missed was going out to dinner.  Although to be frank, even that wasn't so bad...did a lot of take out.  The kids were happy cuz they could watch netflix.  I was okay with it because I'm exhausted after skiing anyway.  That said, eating in your hotel room isn't ideal.  Got better as the season went on and you could eat in the hotel lobby.



I'd echo most of these sentiments as well. I wasn't sure what to expect and thoroughly enjoyed the ability to be out there skiing. I'll also agree that a few less people on the slopes was definitely nice.

I did miss going out to dinner as well. Take-out just isn't the same, but I still tried to do it 1-2 times a week to make sure I was supporting the local restaurants.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 29, 2021)

Hello

Ikon Pass First Tracks will be available to eligible pass holders one designated morning per month in January, February and March 2022 at each participating destination. Participating destinations will designate the Ikon Pass First Track dates for each month, which may vary by destination. Ikon Pass First Track dates and more details will be announced by November 1, 2021. All dates are subject to change due to weather and operations.
Currently Steamboat, Winter Park Resort, Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows, Mammoth Mountain, June Mountain, Big Bear Mountain Resort, Stratton, Sugarbush Resort, Snowshoe, Crystal Mountain, Tremblant, Blue Mountain, Deer Valley Resort, and Solitude Mountain Resort will offer Ikon Pass First Tracks during the 21/22 season. Ikon Pass First Tracks is not available in the Southern Hemisphere for the 2021 winter season.
21/22 Ikon Pass, Ikon Base Pass, Ikon Base Plus Pass and Ikon Session Pass holders are eligible for Ikon Pass First Tracks, subject to pass access restrictions.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 29, 2021)

looking forward to that 30 minutes of extra access on one random tuesday a month. (not hating, just in reality it will be a very difficult benefit for most to use).


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## Hawk (Apr 29, 2021)

That sucks for me.  I already bought the early ups.  I think that they should either discount my early ups or.....let us out even earlier at 7am.  Ya that's the ticket.


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## kingslug (Apr 29, 2021)

This season first tracks was easy midweek..no one was there.


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## Hawk (Apr 29, 2021)

Howie, where did you see that?  Did you get a email presser?


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 29, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Howie, where did you see that?  Did you get a email presser?



its an email but its only one day a month in January feb and march with the specific day chosen by the resorts. appears to apply at all wholly owned alterras. you are fine with your easy ups purchase. this benefit is uber limited.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2021)

I just got the e-mail on that a couple minutes ago. Agree with Kusty though that this appears very limited compared to the Early Ups that Hawk purchased.


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## tumbler (Apr 29, 2021)

Hawk said:


> That sucks for me.  I already bought the early ups.  I think that they should either discount my early ups or.....let us out even earlier at 7am.  Ya that's the ticket.


Except it's still dark!  There some mornings when it is snowing that 7:30 is pushing for daylight.  Not complaining though!


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## WinS (Apr 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I just got the e-mail on that a couple minutes ago. Agree with Kusty though that this appears very limited compared to the Early Ups that Hawk purchased.


It is very limited as I understand It. One day a month and each Resort chooses their own day. Hawk’s early-ups are weekends and Holidays.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 29, 2021)

WinS said:


> It is very limited as I understand It. One day a month and each Resort chooses their own day. Hawk’s early-ups are weekends and Holidays.


Better than 'nothing.


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## WWF-VT (May 2, 2021)

One run and done on Steins today the finale to  my 20-21 ski season.


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2021)

Sugarbush Resort’s Mount Ellen powered by solar
					

Resort officials say a warming climate is a threat to the entire industry, something they take seriously. That’s why they, along with many businesses in Vermont, are thinking clean and green.




					www.wcax.com


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## djd66 (May 3, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Sugarbush Resort’s Mount Ellen powered by solar
> 
> 
> Resort officials say a warming climate is a threat to the entire industry, something they take seriously. That’s why they, along with many businesses in Vermont, are thinking clean and green.
> ...


That is very impressive (if it is true) that the solar is paying for 41% of ALL energy consumed.


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## cdskier (May 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> That is very impressive (if it is true) that the solar is paying for 41% of ALL energy consumed.


The various arrays in Sugarbush's "solar portfolio" generate 2.3MW. The newest one in the parking lot along the access road generates 133kW. The other arrays are off-site in several different locations in VT.


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## HowieT2 (May 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> That is very impressive (if it is true) that the solar is paying for 41% of ALL energy consumed.


and they're saving 130k/year.  I wonder of they have batteries attached to the arrays.


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## djd66 (May 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The various arrays in Sugarbush's "solar portfolio" generate 2.3MW. The newest one in the parking lot along the access road generates 133kW. The other arrays are off-site in several different locations in VT.


Thanks CD, I just re-read the article, now it makes sense. I questioned them generating enough power with the solar array they have on site.  I’m all for solar, I’m just not a huge fan of the solar panels on route 100


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## djd66 (May 4, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> and they're saving 130k/year.  I wonder of they have batteries attached to the arrays.


I don’t think they have batteries- most likely all power that is generated goes right back into the grid.


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I don’t think they have batteries- most likely all power that is generated goes right back into the grid.


That’s how I read it.


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## mikec142 (May 4, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Thanks CD, I just re-read the article, now it makes sense. I questioned them generating enough power with the solar array they have on site.  I’m all for solar, I’m just not a huge fan of the solar panels on route 100


I get your concern for the aesthetics along route 100.  But I wonder what the viable options would be?  Personally, at this point I'm so used to solar arrays that they just become part of the landscape.  To me, it's almost like wearing a ski helmet.  At first it was shocking and weird.  Now its like second nature.

Good for SB for doing its part to help our environment.  I'd love to find a way to go solar with no up front costs!


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## Hawk (May 4, 2021)

I am completely the opposite.  I really do not care about the aesthetic in areas that are already populated.  Solar panels, wind farms, cell towers, whatever.  The benefit far outweighs the detraction from whatever perceived beauty.  I guess putting a tower in the middle of a pristine conservation area or a fragile environment is not ok.  But in populated areas with lots of cars, houses and infrastructure, that should not be an issue if it is not overdone.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Thanks CD, I just re-read the article, now it makes sense. I questioned them generating enough power with the solar array they have on site.  I’m all for solar, I’m just not a huge fan of the solar panels on route 100



What solar panels on route 100 are you referring to? I can't recall being bothered by any. I know there are some small panels down by Yestermorrow and Flatbread, but I don't think either of those have anything to do with Sugarbush and never saw a problem with either.


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I am completely the opposite.  I really do not care about the aesthetic in areas that are already populated.  Solar panels, wind farms, cell towers, whatever.  The benefit far outweighs the detraction from whatever perceived beauty.  I guess putting a tower in the middle of a pristine conservation area or a fragile environment is not ok.  But in populated areas with lots of cars, houses and infrastructure, that should not be an issue if it is not overdone.


This and consider the alternative fossil fuel burning generating stations


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## 1dog (May 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> What solar panels on route 100 are you referring to? I can't recall being bothered by any. I know there are some small panels down by Yestermorrow and Flatbread, but I don't think either of those have anything to do with Sugarbush and never saw a problem with either.


F'ugly and really don't work very well. Best thing VT ever did was ban those gawd-awful windmills from the spin of the Greens.  If you've seen the travesty of those just NW of Newfound Lake in NH - just an eyesore.  So many of them do not operate on a regular basis either. 
Drive to the Cape and see a couple spinning, a couple not so much.

Then there's this: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy/

There's more than one side to the energy story. Follow the money. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/04/why-wind-and-solar-energy-are-doomed-to-failure.php

If it wasn't subsidized, it wouldn't be built, as its not cost-effective. French don't have a lot right, but they do have the nuclear gig right, clean, cheap, and 'renewable'.

Apparently they've solved the storage problem as well. 

OK, hit it hard. I can take it. ( while you're at it, how do you solve the dead solar panel waste problem?)









						Solar Power: An Environmental Disaster
					

Solar power is expensive, unreliable and environmentally destructive. So it doesn't come into being through consumer demand; rather, by government fiat or subsidy. The federal government controls the military, so, sadly, our armed forces have been dragged into the government's alleged fight...




					www.powerlineblog.com


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## tumbler (May 4, 2021)

The panels at Yestermorrow and Flatbread were a bit jarring when they went in but I have kind of gotten used to them.  I'm all for alternative energy but I find it a bit hypocritical that on a scenic corridor those are acceptable but the local zoning boards (for example) are telling people what their houses can and can't look like when they are not visible from major roads.


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## dblskifanatic (May 4, 2021)

Well there is this in VT









						Kingdom Community Wind (KCW) Project, Vermont
					

The Kingdom Community Wind (KCW) project is a 63MW wind farm built in Lowell, Orleans County, Vermont, in the US.…




					www.power-technology.com
				




Drive through Eastern Colorado and Kansas there are literally 1000s of wind turbines and it is ugly as all get out.  They are visible as far as the eyes can see.  Heading out to Palm Springs in CA there are what looks like thousands there too.  When you drive by them some are spinning while others are not.  What are they built out of,  Where are they built.  What is the chemical impact of building them?  How long does one of these have to operate to breakeven?


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## djd66 (May 4, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The panels at Yestermorrow and Flatbread were a bit jarring when they went in but I have kind of gotten used to them.  I'm all for alternative energy but I find it a bit hypocritical that on a scenic corridor those are acceptable but the local zoning boards (for example) are telling people what their houses can and can't look like when they are not visible from major roads.


Those are the ones I was referring to.  Its personal preference - those things are butt ugly.  I guess I am glad I don't live across the street from them.

Down here in Mass, I am putting them on top of my building and getting paid to do it.


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## Smellytele (May 4, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Well there is this in VT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eastern Colorado and Kansas are ugly on there own anyway


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## kingslug (May 5, 2021)

When you add it all up..what's the alternative looking forward?


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## HowieT2 (May 5, 2021)

1dog said:


> F'ugly and really don't work very well. Best thing VT ever did was ban those gawd-awful windmills from the spin of the Greens.  If you've seen the travesty of those just NW of Newfound Lake in NH - just an eyesore.  So many of them do not operate on a regular basis either.
> Drive to the Cape and see a couple spinning, a couple not so much.
> 
> Then there's this: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy/
> ...


unfortunately for your argument you are quoting 5 year old propaganda.  In those 5 years the cost of solar has plummeted, more so than even the rosiest forecasts.  So it is incorrect to say solar is only being built because of subsidies.  Just not true.  What is true is that solar is now lower cost than natural gas or coal, which is why solar installations are being installed by consumers, businesses and electricity providers not just in the US but all over the world.


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## thebigo (May 5, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> unfortunately for your argument you are quoting 5 year old propaganda.  In those 5 years the cost of solar has plummeted, more so than even the rosiest forecasts.  So it is incorrect to say solar is only being built because of subsidies.  Just not true.  What is true is that solar is now lower cost than natural gas or coal, which is why solar installations are being installed by consumers, businesses and electricity providers not just in the US but all over the world.


You may be entirely correct on the economics of solar but it does not change the fact that solar arrays are ugly and require direct sunlight to be cost effective. I looked at rooftop panels on my house but had to cut down several dozen trees, including a several foot diameter boss pine and what I am told are colonial era old growth shade trees. As much as I like the idea of solar, I like the trees more.

In my estimation we are still in the early days of solar. Solar is not going to truly take off until incorporated into items already accepted as ugly. Examples include solar asphalt, durable low cost solar shingles/siding and solar paint.


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## cdskier (May 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You may be entirely correct on the economics of solar but it does not change the fact that solar arrays are ugly and require direct sunlight to be cost effective. I looked at rooftop panels on my house but had to cut down several dozen trees, including a several foot diameter boss pine and what I am told are colonial era old growth shade trees. As much as I like the idea of solar, I like the trees more.
> 
> In my estimation we are still in the early days of solar. Solar is not going to truly take off until incorporated into items already accepted as ugly. Examples include solar asphalt, durable low cost solar shingles/siding and solar paint.



I'd argue solar arrays are less ugly than a power plant...

You're right that they're not appropriate for all locations though.


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## kingslug (May 5, 2021)

Like this: https://www.tesla.com/solarroof


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## mikec142 (May 5, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Like this: https://www.tesla.com/solarroof


Oddly enough, I just read an article about these.  They sound amazing, but apparently Tesla is having a problem with the costs and they are quoting one thing and then when it comes time to deliver the price is much, much higher.


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## mikec142 (May 5, 2021)

I'm all for solar.  Even if it's more costly.  At the end of the day, it's gonna cost society a lot more if climate change continues at current pace.


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## Hawk (May 5, 2021)

1dog said:


> F'ugly and really don't work very well. Best thing VT ever did was ban those gawd-awful windmills from the spin of the Greens.  If you've seen the travesty of those just NW of Newfound Lake in NH - just an eyesore.  So many of them do not operate on a regular basis either.
> Drive to the Cape and see a couple spinning, a couple not so much.
> 
> Then there's this: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy/
> ...


Sorry you feel that way.  Also it is funny that both articles are from Republican based entities that have ties to big oil.  No wonder they done like wind or solar energy.


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## dblskifanatic (May 5, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Oddly enough, I just read an article about these.  They sound amazing, but apparently Tesla is having a problem with the costs and they are quoting one thing and then when it comes time to deliver the price is much, much higher.



Like a moving company!  Get a quote then day before they review inventory and quote you higher then the day they arrive they go for the big bump in price.


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## kingslug (May 5, 2021)

The boss is getting his done now...I'll find out how it goes.


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## djd66 (May 5, 2021)

The cost of panels (from China) would be a lot less if they were not subject to 106% duty


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## NYDB (May 5, 2021)

Someone needs to delete the last 2 pages of this thread. Jesus enjoy your summer folks.


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## Not Sure (May 5, 2021)

djd66 said:


> The cost of panels (from China) would be a lot less if they were not subject to 106% duty


Solar panels contribute to global warming ...bad albedo number . Manufacturing in China has little environmental regulations.

 Buy a Heat pump and recycle some global warming or go geothermal if your planning on owning the same residence for a long period.


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## SkiTheEast (May 5, 2021)

Wow, I love the annual brew grass festival but just saw $135 per ticket (think that is 3x what it was in 2019)...welcome to covid pricing with limited crowds


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## cdskier (May 5, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Wow, I love the annual brew grass festival but just saw $135 per ticket (think that is 3x what it was in 2019)...welcome to covid pricing with limited crowds


It was $40 in 2019, so more than 3x this year (although the price does include some sort of food this year and a hat!). I wasn't planning on attending this year anyway, but when I saw the price that definitely sealed the deal on not going.


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## KustyTheKlown (May 6, 2021)

i am all about things being more expensive and less crowded.

going to see the disco biscuits next weekend. its a drive in. my friends and I get a huge private pod that other people can't tromp through. the tickets are more expensive than a normal concert, but you better believe lots of byobooze is getting snuck into that venue in our private vehicle.


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## Hawk (May 6, 2021)

Ya, that is usually our first big cycling weekend in the Champlain Valley coupled with that.  No one in my group is willing to pay that price so we are planning to have our local buddies stock up on all kinds of VT beer and have our own brew fest after the ride.  That is too bad.  I have not missed this in past years.


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## cdskier (May 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i am all about things being more expensive and less crowded.



I'm fine with that to a point. But when you couple a >3x price increase with the fact that there are also only going to be about 1/3 of the breweries that they'd normally have, I can't justify it.


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## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Wow, I love the annual brew grass festival but just saw $135 per ticket (think that is 3x what it was in 2019)...welcome to covid pricing with limited crowds



It is absurd - we looked in some concerts at Meadow Brook and the prices are through the roof.  It is like they are trying to recoup some of the losses from last year and make money this year.  Auto sale prices are higher as well, Gas prices.  it has gone nuts.


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## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm fine with that to a point. But when you couple a >3x price increase with the fact that there are also only going to be about 1/3 of the breweries that they'd normally have, I can't justify it.



A Basins Brew festival did the same thing.  They give you a plastic mug that gets refilled for the equivalent price of 6 pints at the bar.  Did not make sense economically.  I guess price events so it is a elite status thing?


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## JimG. (May 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I am all about things being more expensive and less crowded.


I agree.

It's pretty funny that the only thing that isn't getting more expensive (actually less expensive) are ski passes. Who wants to bet on how long that lasts?


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## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I agree.
> 
> It's pretty funny that the only thing that isn't getting more expensive (actually less expensive) are ski passes. Who wants to bet on how long that lasts?


That questions has been asked over and over for the past 5 years,  Ikon is going in that direction of being more expensive.


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## kingslug (May 6, 2021)

Depends on the area..People have a lot of money to spend these days..well those that  kept their jobs and did well with the market. Look at the home and second home buying craze...


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## Hawk (May 10, 2021)

I don't think that the general reason that the real-estate market is booming in VT is because people have extra money to burn.  I think there is a movement with some people to get out of the city areas and live a cleaner quieter life.  That holds true for the people I know that moved to VT.  It is certainly not for tax reasons.  LOL


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## mikec142 (May 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I don't think that the general reason that the real-estate market is booming in VT is because people have extra money to burn.  I think there is a movement with some people to get out of the city areas and live a cleaner quieter life.  That holds true for the people I know that moved to VT.  It is certainly not for tax reasons.  LOL


I agree with this.  It's coupled with the ability to WFH.  Be interested to see how long the trend lasts.


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## mbedle (May 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I don't think that the general reason that the real-estate market is booming in VT is because people have extra money to burn.  I think there is a movement with some people to get out of the city areas and live a cleaner quieter life.  That holds true for the people I know that moved to VT.  It is certainly not for tax reasons.  LOL


I believe that the booming real estate market is more a reflection of the lack of actual homes to purchase. There was very little new construction last year. Combine that with a large demand, excellent returns on investments and historically low mortgage rates also helps to fuel what is happening.


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## kingslug (May 11, 2021)

Agree to all that but in the end you still need money to support 2 homes. Its why we bought a small 2 bedroom condo rather than the large ones we checked out. I already deal with monster real estate in NYC. and the house in CT....not interested in adding too much more.  Just looking at what they are building right at Stowe..some pretty expensive condos..and I'm sure they will sell them.


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## Hawk (May 12, 2021)

If you're selling your house in Mass, CT, RI, NY or NJ I think you should have enough capital to afford a condo or small house in VT.  What I have seen in the MRV that is driving the market is mostly people moving up to VT not second home buyers. That is what our RE agent told us.   Maybe it is different else were.


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## mikec142 (May 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> If you're selling your house in Mass, CT, RI, NY or NJ I think you should have enough capital to afford a condo or small house in VT.  What I have seen in the MRV that is driving the market is mostly people moving up to VT not second home buyers. That is what our RE agent told us.   Maybe it is different else were.


^This is my take too.  The big cities are seeing a lot of outward migration.  It's being driven by several factors: greatly increased ability to work from anywhere, desire for more (outdoor) space, realization that commuting 2+ hours a day sucks, etc. etc.  While I'm sure there were plenty of second home buyers, I would think that the great migration we are witnessing is being driven by primary home buyers.

The thing that I will be curious about is how long will these feelings last.  Will city folk embrace the slower lifestyle?  Will they have short memories and once again desire the restaurants, theater, etc?  Will they realize that mud and stick season may not be for them?

Time will tell.


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## Smellytele (May 12, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> ^This is my take too.  The big cities are seeing a lot of outward migration.  It's being driven by several factors: greatly increased ability to work from anywhere, desire for more (outdoor) space, realization that commuting 2+ hours a day sucks, etc. etc.  While I'm sure there were plenty of second home buyers, I would think that the great migration we are witnessing is being driven by primary home buyers.
> 
> The thing that I will be curious about is how long will these feelings last.  Will city folk embrace the slower lifestyle?  Will they have short memories and once again desire the restaurants, theater, etc?  Will they realize that mud and stick season may not be for them?
> 
> Time will tell.


No garbage pick, no side walks, no public transportation (or uber). chickens and pigs at the neighbors that smell all so good come August. People shooting shotguns all hours of the day (well I guess they maybe used to gun shots but shot guns/rifles are louder than hand guns)


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## dblskifanatic (May 12, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> No garbage pick, no side walks, no public transportation (or uber). chickens and pigs at the neighbors that smell all so good come August. People shooting shotguns all hours of the day (well I guess they maybe used to gun shots but shot guns/rifles are louder than hand guns)



Wow you have a very interesting view or is that the Cannon way of saying stay away?


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## Smellytele (May 12, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Wow you have a very interesting view or is that the Cannon way of saying stay away?


I live with out sidewalks, garbage pickup and the other situations I mentioned and love it well except for the smelly pigs.
I have just seen people move out of heavily populated areas and then start asking for side walks, garbage pickup and other nonessential perks. These things drive up taxes.
Also have seen someone build a house next to a pig farm and then try to outlaw said pig farm.


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## dblskifanatic (May 12, 2021)

That is


Smellytele said:


> I live with out sidewalks, garbage pickup and the other situations I mentioned and love it well except for the smelly pigs.
> I have just seen people move out of heavily populated areas and then start asking for side walks, garbage pickup and other nonessential perks. These things drive up taxes.
> Also have seen someone build a house next to a pig farm and then try to outlaw said pig farm.



What I suspected.  I saw the same in my home town in VT.  I lived next to a farm and never thought twice about it.  When some people move nearby from out of state they went the town and asked to do something about the manure smell.  Pretty much were told - Oh well not much you can do about that!


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## PAabe (May 12, 2021)

I don't mind the smell of chicken or cow manure but pig houses can be pretty smelly
But yeah people moving in from the city and getting mad at farmers for farming is pretty common unfortunately
Here in Lancaster another common complaint from the city slickers is the horses and horse manure on the road.  The horses which have been using the roads far longer than automobiles have


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## Dickc (May 13, 2021)

Its like buying a house next to a busy airport, then complaining about the noise.  Its an AIRPORT fer crying out loud!


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## cdskier (May 13, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Its like buying a house next to a busy airport, then complaining about the noise.  Its an AIRPORT fer crying out loud!


Those "complaints" come up all the time in my area in NJ due to our proximity to Teterboro and Newark. How either of those is suddenly a surprise to people after they buy a home in this area is beyond me...


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## 1dog (May 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> unfortunately for your argument you are quoting 5 year old propaganda.  In those 5 years the cost of solar has plummeted, more so than even the rosiest forecasts.  So it is incorrect to say solar is only being built because of subsidies.  Just not true.  What is true is that solar is now lower cost than natural gas or coal, which is why solar installations are being installed by consumers, businesses and electricity providers not just in the US but all over the world.


5 year old? propaganda? 'Big Oil' has beendropped from the S&P ( Exxon/Mobil) it's so big. Well, they said that about Columbus and threw Galileo in jail. . .  so . . Here's more recent evidence it's a large waste of taxpayer dollars. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/05/the-green-fantasy-is-a-nightmare.php

Someday it could be a good thing, but since natural gas is half as 'dirty' as oil, and cheaper, why not go there? Best thing for struggling people is to hale lower cost energy, food and housing. And since we are inflation hard assets with cheap money, and food is going way up, heat is good as cheap as we can get it. 

Until they can figure out how to store energy, that wind and solar combo are low on the reliance side. Finally, government is the worst allocator of dollars there is.

OPM always is last. Ask the kids who get a free ride their entire life then when money gets tight as adults - they want yours and mine to help out. 

The skiing was good on the backside of Monroe last month, but it was a short season for fresh. Hope you all have a good spring/summer. Enjoyable banter.


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## Hawk (May 17, 2021)

1Dog, again you use articles from Powerline to discredit solar energy.  Did you bother to understand who the people writing the articles are?  They are a conservative based think tank with ties to many big businesses including big oil.  Hardly a fair source to use to discredit  solar energy.  Do you think your getting an objective spin from them.   Nope.  Now get me a more credible source and I might listen to the argument.  But since I know several people that have successfully paid off their initial investment in solar and are making money now, it will be a hard sell. 

And by the way, I like the rural smells of pigs, chickens and cows.  HA!


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## kingslug (May 17, 2021)

Theres a farm across from me in CT...they have a Peacock..that howls..never heard anything like it..and we have no sidewalks. I like it. So VT would be just fine. Some day.


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## djd66 (May 18, 2021)

Just pave Roxbury Gap and I'll be happy.


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## 1dog (May 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> 1Dog, again you use articles from Powerline to discredit solar energy.  Did you bother to understand who the people writing the articles are?  They are a conservative based think tank with ties to many big businesses including big oil.  Hardly a fair source to use to discredit  solar energy.  Do you think your getting an objective spin from them.   Nope.  Now get me a more credible source and I might listen to the argument.  But since I know several people that have successfully paid off their initial investment in solar and are making money now, it will be a hard sell.
> 
> And by the way, I like the rural smells of pigs, chickens and cows.  HA!


I grew up on/next to farms - cows, sure. . . pigs, well, I like bacon, . . .all kinds. . . . .  good, natural scents, right?  If anyone thinks there are objective views from those  who benefits from subsidies, those who's checks are paid for by Big Media ( far more powerful than 'Big Oil- who btw invests more and more in alternative energy, because hey, if DC is gonna throw $$ around, they will get in line)

Forget for a minute the source - just take a look at the graphs, the amount of energy it would take to replace fossil fuel is years away. And just try, for a day, to live without all it creates. . . . .  it can't be done ( easily, I'd say, at all.









						The Geek in Pictures: Special Energy Fantasy League Edition
					

Here's a great barroom game you can play (well okay, at a nerd bar anyway): what would a 'Green Energy Fantasy League' draft look like? How high would the bids go to have Greta Thunberg and Al Gore on your fantasy team? Can Amory Lovins be the Tom Brady of energy hucksters, still able to throw...




					www.powerlineblog.com
				




Can't say you didn't like the last one, eh?







Suffice to say there will be more tree-huggers than not on a forum like this. . . . I'm not for doing nothing, but not at the expense of the poor - 35-75% increase in energy 'because we don't like fossil fuels' aren't gonna help them pay their heat or gas bill. 

It was fun to read the dreamers visions. . . .  meanwhile, I'll take my fossil fuel-made skis, ride in our fossil fuel lifts, and even ski on fossil fuel, fueled man-made snow - 40-45% of all electricity still comes from coal. . . clean coal they call it now. . . . . .  over and out.


----------



## Hawk (May 19, 2021)

I am really not a total environmentalist but I do like to think that our country would move in a positive direction.  But I also get your attitude. The,  Fuck it - lets kick the can down the road and deal with it later.  Actually and In reality it does not effect me.  No kids to worry about and I will be long gone when the earth is scorched because the atmosphere has been depleted.  The argument that the tech does not work well and the production has negative effects is old.  You have to start somewhere or nothing will ever happen.  So lets keep with the status quo and burn more oil and coal and just say fuck it.  No big deal.


----------



## Hawk (May 19, 2021)

Also you were touting the use of Nuclear Energy.  I would say be careful what you ask for.  Aside from Chernobyl and other smaller accidents, you only have to look at Fukushima and the long term effects from that to understand we don't have a handle on that form of energy either.  Read this and your taste for Pacific tuna might go away.  10 years later and they are still releasing tons of radioactive water into the ocean.  Low levels now but not at the start.

Fukushima Radiation


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 19, 2021)

I do believe that renewables will be the way to go, however, the technology for storage is not there yet.  Many solar farms and wind farms sell their carbon credits to utilities/businesses that are not so clean to offset oil and coal use.  I helped to develop a solar farm and part of paying for it was selling off carbon credits.  It is a chess match.  If energy gets more expensive it will not be you or I that will be impacted the most it will be the low income folks and families.  Even as we speak, gas prices are higher and like I said - the impact is nothing much to me besides paying more at the pump.  it hurts the folks that make low wages and have to drive to work.


----------



## Hawk (Jun 17, 2021)

Anybody paying the $135 this weekend to drink beer?  HA   We are having our own party and going to another with really good music by a well know band.  MTB, Beer and Music.  Covid must be over now.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 17, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Anybody paying the $135 this weekend to drink beer?  HA   We are having our own party and going to another with really good music by a well know band.  MTB, Beer and Music.  Covid must be over now.



Hah. I guess 300 people must have paid that as they did finally sell out I noticed. So not worth it and I'm not exactly blown away by the lineup of the 7 breweries they're having either.


----------



## Hawk (Jun 17, 2021)

CD, from your place on the mountain you will hear the music I was talking about.  It will be fun.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 17, 2021)

Hawk said:


> CD, from your place on the mountain you will hear the music I was talking about.  It will be fun.



Damn...wish I was going to be up there but I'll be home in NJ this weekend. Not sure yet exactly when I'm getting back up there. Still trying to catch up on shit here at home that I neglected or have to do after spending all winter up there!


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Jun 29, 2021)

Hope no one here was attached to the sun deck, as it’s no longer attached


----------



## cdskier (Jun 29, 2021)

There will be a new deck once the VT Adaptive addition is completed according to the last plans I saw...


----------



## WinS (Jun 30, 2021)

That is correct. Will be entire length with the new VASS addition.


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 3, 2021)

Hope everyone is enjoying their summer.

Any inside info on how Sugarbush will operate this coming season?  Back to normal?  Retain any of the changes that were in place for this past season?

I know that we are in a world where it's hard to plan and things are subject to change, but some planning must be going on at this point.


----------



## djd66 (Aug 3, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Hope everyone is enjoying their summer.
> 
> Any inside info on how Sugarbush will operate this coming season?  Back to normal?  Retain any of the changes that were in place for this past season?
> 
> I know that we are in a world where it's hard to plan and things are subject to change, but some planning must be going on at this point.


I’m guessing they will follow guidelines set up by the state.  Hopefully, there will be no mask requirement when you are outside and they can load chairs with max capacity. Wearing a mask outside is rediculous.


----------



## WinS (Aug 3, 2021)

I am sure that Sugarbush and all other Vermont ski areas will follow State and CDC guidelines as they did last winter.  There was no evidence of any community spread of COVID-19 last winter at Sugarbush. The few employees who got COVID were infected elsewhere and quarantined along with any others exposed for the required time period. Hopefully, the current spike in the Delta virus is contained so the indoor activities can return to normal which is what all want. I would surmise that some of the new dining options like the Lunchbox and 802 Burrito will be back and the Courtyard will be a popular place to gather. i would also guess that some of the reservations systems will continue with upgrades to them. I believe this is a trend you will see in the industry to improve the guest experience. Over at Mount Ellen the VASS addition with create more space for seating on the first floor and new bathrooms will be present on both floors which will be very nice. The biggest issue facing everyone will be staffing and hopefully J-1s will be allowed back into the USA.


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 3, 2021)

WinS said:


> I am sure that Sugarbush and all other Vermont ski areas will follow State and CDC guidelines as they did last winter.  There was no evidence of any community spread of COVID-19 last winter at Sugarbush. The few employees who got COVID were infected elsewhere and quarantined along with any others exposed for the required time period. Hopefully, the current spike in the Delta virus is contained so the indoor activities can return to normal which is what all want. I would surmise that some of the new dining options like the Lunchbox and 802 Burrito will be back and the Courtyard will be a popular place to gather. i would also guess that some of the reservations systems will continue with upgrades to them. I believe this is a trend you will see in the industry to improve the guest experience. Over at Mount Ellen the VASS addition with create more space for seating on the first floor and new bathrooms will be present on both floors which will be very nice. The biggest issue facing everyone will be staffing and hopefully J-1s will be allowed back into the USA.


Thanks Win.  I suspect you're right regarding staffing.  I know that the vast majority of summer camps (sleep away) have had serious staffing issues especially with the lack of foreign staff.


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 3, 2021)

I’ll be up in waitsfield/Warren next weekend for the first time since winter 2020. Anything particular I should know about/may have missed. Was hoping to go to peasant for dinner on Saturday and maybe American flatbread on friday


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Aug 3, 2021)

rocks860 said:


> I’ll be up in waitsfield/Warren next weekend for the first time since winter 2020. Anything particular I should know about/may have missed. Was hoping to go to peasant for dinner on Saturday and maybe American flatbread on friday


Roxbury Gap will close on 8/15 for 3 weeks so avoid that road if traveling after that date.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 3, 2021)

WinS said:


> I am sure that Sugarbush and all other Vermont ski areas will follow State and CDC guidelines as they did last winter.  There was no evidence of any community spread of COVID-19 last winter at Sugarbush. The few employees who got COVID were infected elsewhere and quarantined along with any others exposed for the required time period. Hopefully, the current spike in the Delta virus is contained so the indoor activities can return to normal which is what all want. I would surmise that some of the new dining options like the Lunchbox and 802 Burrito will be back and the Courtyard will be a popular place to gather. i would also guess that some of the reservations systems will continue with upgrades to them. I believe this is a trend you will see in the industry to improve the guest experience. Over at Mount Ellen the VASS addition with create more space for seating on the first floor and new bathrooms will be present on both floors which will be very nice. The biggest issue facing everyone will be staffing and hopefully J-1s will be allowed back into the USA.


the vass addition will be done for this upcoming season? 
Surprised SB didnt expand the lodge at least under the deck while the vass project was going on.  Seems like it would have been easy/cheap if the deck was being replaced anyway.


----------



## Hawk (Aug 5, 2021)

rocks860 said:


> I’ll be up in waitsfield/Warren next weekend for the first time since winter 2020. Anything particular I should know about/may have missed. Was hoping to go to peasant for dinner on Saturday and maybe American flatbread on friday


Flatbread's system of booking is different.  No more going early to book your seating.  You have to call during business hours and book.  FYI they book out for the weekend very fast so you have to call on Thursday if you hope to get a seating.  We got shut out last weekend.  Well that's not totally true.  They offered us 5 or 8 on Saturday but we were not up for real early or thar late.  We called on Friday.

The other resurraunts are all different and have various meathods.  I would call them to find out sooner than later.  Not sure of the status of Peasant.  I heard they might be closing?  not sure.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The other resurraunts are all different and have various meathods.  I would call them to find out sooner than later.  Not sure of the status of Peasant.  I heard they might be closing?  not sure.



Peasant is very much still open. Need to call for reservations though. And I'd call sooner rather than later as they book up fast.


----------



## WinS (Aug 6, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> the vass addition will be done for this upcoming season?
> Surprised SB didnt expand the lodge at least under the deck while the vass project was going on.  Seems like it would have been easy/cheap if the deck was being replaced anyway.


The existing water and septic requirements did do not allow for anymore expansion.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2021)

FYI:  









						Sugarbush Raises Minimum Wage to $15
					

SAM Magazine—Warren, Vt., August 5, 2021—Sugarbush Resort raised its minimum wage to $15 per hour for all non-tipped positions. To maintain the pay differe




					www.saminfo.com
				




No surprise.  On my recent visit, a lot of places could not fully reopen because there are NO employees or people looking for work.


----------



## djd66 (Aug 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> FYI:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly the reason why there is absolutely no need for the government to raise the minimum wage to $15/hr. Adam Smiths invisible hand at work.  Take note all socialists.


----------



## IceEidolon (Aug 8, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Exactly the reason why there is absolutely no need for the government to raise the minimum wage to $15/hr. Adam Smiths invisible hand at work.  Take note all socialists.


I'd rather see businesses like Sugarbush that are doing the right thing and raising wages not be unfairly disadvantaged by competitors paying less, even if it's marginally less.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 8, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> I'd rather see businesses like Sugarbush that are doing the right thing and raising wages not be unfairly disadvantaged by competitors paying less, even if it's marginally less.


DOn't think that they aren't doing this for their own good as well. To get employees they needed to raise their pay rate. Do it earlier than the other guys then you get the employees first.


----------



## rocks860 (Aug 8, 2021)

Yeah I called on Friday of this week and got a reservation for both, Friday for flatbread and saturday for peasant


----------



## IceEidolon (Aug 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> DOn't think that they aren't doing this for their own good as well. To get employees they needed to raise their pay rate. Do it earlier than the other guys then you get the employees first.


If it wasn't good for business they wouldn't do it, but it's still good to see wages rising.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 9, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> I'd rather see businesses like Sugarbush that are doing the right thing and raising wages not be unfairly disadvantaged by competitors paying less, even if it's marginally less.


They will not be disadvantaged!  They will get people because they are paying $15 and those that do not will be disadvantaged.


----------



## djd66 (Aug 9, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> If it wasn't good for business they wouldn't do it, but it's still good to see wages rising.


It because they need to attract employees and not for a marketing play.  People are not willing to work for the current $11.75 minimum wage, so they are offering what they think the market will bare. Good for business? Ah, yeah - they need employees to run the business - as most businesses do.


----------



## IceEidolon (Aug 10, 2021)

DBL, they'd only be disadvantaged in the sense that another resort paying $13/hr instead will have theoretically better margins. Some of that will be made up in intangibles by hiring better or more easily.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 11, 2021)

The $15/hr min wage is a good step and will hopefully generate some more employees, but what hurts the Valley is the small labor pool to pull from and the lack of affordable housing for the $15/hr seasonal worker.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The $15/hr min wage is a good step and will hopefully generate some more employees, but what hurts the Valley is the small labor pool to pull from and the lack of affordable housing for the $15/hr seasonal worker.


How will it effect the small businesses in the valley that now need to compete with getting seasonal help at this rate?


----------



## ss20 (Aug 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The $15/hr min wage is a good step and will hopefully generate some more employees, but what hurts the Valley is the small labor pool to pull from and the lack of affordable housing for the $15/hr seasonal worker.



Correct.  And with employees making more $$$$ you should expect prices for the seasonal rentals they live in to go up.  

This is why the people arguing for ridiculous wages for ski resort employees made no sense ($15 isn't ridiculous....$20 or $25 is).  The wages aren't the key issue in most places, it's the housing.  If 2,000 affordable apartments were built overnight in Aspen they'd be sold out the next morning.  If lifties in Jackson Hole made $30 an hour one bedroom apartments would cost $3,000 a month instead of $2,000 (or is it more currently?).


----------



## JimG. (Aug 11, 2021)

After the nightmare that the eviction moratorium has been for landlords I fully expect rent to become more expensive than buying a house and paying the mortgage. Forget about the local employment situation. Rentals will be dominated by large corporations and the mom and pop landlords will sell their properties to avoid the risks associated with being a renter. Or they will go the short term rental route.

It's already happening. I know several small landlords who are selling ASAP, especially since the housing market is hot. I was considering renting out our house after we fully retire but no way after this pandemic.


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> How will it effect the small businesses in the valley that now need to compete with getting seasonal help at this rate?


It's a good question and I'm not sure of the answer...but my gut feeling is that the more successful that Sugarbush is, the better it is for the other local businesses.  More people come to visit.  More employees with cash in their pocket who will spend in the valley, etc.  A rising tide lifts all boats.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2021)

JimG. said:


> After the nightmare that the eviction moratorium has been for landlords I fully expect rent to become more expensive than buying a house and paying the mortgage. Forget about the local employment situation. Rentals will be dominated by large corporations and the mom and pop landlords will sell their properties to avoid the risks associated with being a renter. Or they will go the short term rental route.
> 
> It's already happening. I know several small landlords who are selling ASAP, especially since the housing market is hot. I was considering renting out our house after we fully retire but no way after this pandemic.


Apparently the eviction moratorium is back "on", at least until October.  It is not clear at all.


----------



## Dickc (Aug 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Apparently the eviction moratorium is back "on", at least until October.  It is not clear at all.


Bad news for the small landlord.  More of them will sell to the big landlords.  Those big Landlords will have to answer to the politicians, and the politicians will answer to their lobby.  Its LOSE, LOSE for the average citizen.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Apparently the eviction moratorium is back "on", at least until October.  It is not clear at all.


There is no plan. Genuine Keystone Kops stuff. Making it all up as they go.


----------



## urungus (Aug 12, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Bad news for the small landlord.  More of them will sell to the big landlords.  Those big Landlords will have to answer to the politicians, and the politicians will answer to their lobby.  Its LOSE, LOSE for the average citizen.


For the “average citizen”, it’s still better than getting thrown out on the street tomorrow.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 12, 2021)

JimG. said:


> There is no plan. Genuine Keystone Kops stuff. Making it all up as they go.











						Major Wall Street investment firms go on a home buying sprees amid housing boom
					

WASHINGTON (SBG) — Major investment firms are buying up thousands of homes, and sometimes entire neighborhoods, across the country and turning them into single-family rental houses as the housing market experiences a major boom.  More than 200 companies and investment firms like BlackRock and J...




					www.google.com
				




Or planned? Shake the tree for low hanging fruit. 
when the moratorium is gone cash in .


----------



## JimG. (Aug 12, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Major Wall Street investment firms go on a home buying sprees amid housing boom
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (SBG) — Major investment firms are buying up thousands of homes, and sometimes entire neighborhoods, across the country and turning them into single-family rental houses as the housing market experiences a major boom.  More than 200 companies and investment firms like BlackRock and J...
> ...


My comment about there being no plan refers to the government, not the corporate world.

I get at least 2 calls a week from these companies asking me to sell my house. My response is "I'm not selling my house to you" and hanging up.

Since the end of 2019 the appraisal for my house has increased 20%. I have made no upgrades of any kind in that time period. Insane!


----------



## Hawk (Aug 12, 2021)

Mine has gone up 50%.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 12, 2021)

JimG. said:


> My comment about there being no plan refers to the government, not the corporate world.
> 
> I get at least 2 calls a week from these companies asking me to sell my house. My response is "I'm not selling my house to you" and hanging up.
> 
> Since the end of 2019 the appraisal for my house has increased 20%. I have made no upgrades of any kind in that time period. Insane!


so people are cold calling you to see if you want to sell your house? 

what an awful soulless job that must be...


----------



## JimG. (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so people are cold calling you to see if you want to sell your house?
> 
> what an awful soulless job that must be...


Exactly.


----------



## kingslug (Aug 16, 2021)

Better than calling to see if you want to buy a bridge.......


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 16, 2021)

I mean if the price is right...


----------



## JimG. (Aug 16, 2021)

My home is not for sale. I like it here.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

I was refering to buying a bridge


----------



## skiur (Aug 17, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I was refering to buying a bridge



I've got a few for sale, how many do you need?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

I'm in the market for late 1800s truss bridges  


okay enough with this terrible joke...


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm in the market for late 1800s truss bridges
> 
> 
> okay enough with this terrible joke...


No 1800s truss bridges, but there are 2 Bridges condos currently for sale!





__





						Bridges - Sugarbush and Mad River Valley's Leading Agency for Buyers and Sellers
					






					sugarbushrealestate.com
				




(Sorry...had to try to somehow bring this back on a somewhat relevant topic for this thread)


----------



## kingslug (Aug 17, 2021)

I need one from my house to Stowe..that only I can use.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

if only I had some additional capital I'd buy one of those condos!


----------



## kingslug (Aug 17, 2021)

Hmmm....
HOA fee &1600.00 a month..forget it.


----------



## flakeydog (Aug 17, 2021)

you had your chance a few years ago....

https://www.valleyreporter.com/inde.../8435-construction-begins-on-kingsbury-bridge

"_The 1929 bridge will be removed next spring and although it has been offered to the public, LaCroix said that he didn’t think there had been any takers. He said that typically the state will offer these aging historic truss bridges to the public and that they are sometimes used for non-vehicular traffic on bike and pedestrian paths.

If no one has a use for the Kingsbury bridge, it will be destroyed after the Agency of Transportation ensures that the bridge is properly photographed and documented for the state historic structures division._"

But there is still hope, several makes and models available but shipping could be a deal breaker:

https://bridgehunter.com/category/status/available-for-reuse/


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

your level of research is appreciated!


Actually there is a a late 1800s truss bridge that just closed about a mile from me.   Its on my bike route, I hope they replace it.


----------



## flakeydog (Aug 17, 2021)

Maybe it is on the market.

https://www.penndot.gov/ProjectAndPrograms/Cultural Resources/Bridge Marketing/Pages/default.aspx


----------



## nhskier1969 (Aug 22, 2021)

Is anyone having virus issues coming from the skimrv site lately?
I haven't been on the site since it went done several years ago.


----------



## djd66 (Aug 22, 2021)

10,000 Vermonters to lose at least some unemployment benefits Sept. 4
					

About 14,000 Vermonters are collecting unemployment benefits. Most will lose supplemental federal benefits in a couple weeks.



					vtdigger.org
				




Maybe this will help many of the businesses that are desperately looking for help.  Blows me away that there are actually over 10,000 people in VT still collecting when there is 3% unemployment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 22, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Maybe this will help many of the businesses that are desperately looking for help.  Blows me away that there are actually over 10,000 people in VT still collecting when there is 3% unemployment.



From my recent trip to n.VT, it felt like every door in Chittendon & Franklin County has a "HELP WANTED" sign on it.  It was crazy!  One gets the sense that if you live in Vermont & dont have a job, there's a good chance it's by choice.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> From my recent trip to n.VT, it felt like every door in Chittendon & Franklin County has a "HELP WANTED" sign on it.  It was crazy!  One gets the sense that if you live in Vermont & dont have a job, there's a good chance it's by choice.


While I was out in Leadville Colorado this past week it was the same way. Restaurants and stores were closed certain days of the week. Mostly Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Of course I was in town Tuesday and Wednesday.


----------



## urungus (Aug 23, 2021)

djd66 said:


> 10,000 Vermonters to lose at least some unemployment benefits Sept. 4
> 
> 
> About 14,000 Vermonters are collecting unemployment benefits. Most will lose supplemental federal benefits in a couple weeks.
> ...


3% of Vermont’s population of 623,989 would be 18,720 people.  So the number of people collecting seems about right, when you consider some people are too young to work, etc

Also I find it sad that the reaction to people losing their unemployment benefits is not sympathy for the destitute, but “this will be great for businesses”.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 23, 2021)

Get back to work and stop living off my hard work.   If you don't think people are loving not having to work and getting another $300 per week, you are sorely mistaken.

Hell I had an engineer apply for a position who lost his job last year and hasn't worked in a year. When asked in an initial phone interview why he hasn't worked, he essentially said that he was living off unemployment.    Needless to say his resume went into the trash.   I need motivated people not someone who is willing to coast ont the work of others. 

So the moral of the story is we've been paying people to not work for way too long.  EVERYONE is hiring and in most cases way above Minimum wage.  Time for these folks tp Get off their ass and get a job.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 23, 2021)

djd66 said:


> 10,000 Vermonters to lose at least some unemployment benefits Sept. 4
> 
> 
> About 14,000 Vermonters are collecting unemployment benefits. Most will lose supplemental federal benefits in a couple weeks.
> ...


NH got rid of the unemployment top-up several months ago, did not make a difference. The three amusement parks in the state are operating five days a week and when you go there are closed attractions; the attractions that are open are operated by one person instead of 2 - 3. Same with restaurants, most are reduced hours and only five days a week, others are at half capacity. We need the foreign labor back, people staying unemployed to collect an extra $300 / week are not about to stand in the blazing sun and run a roller-coaster all summer.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> NH got rid of the unemployment top-up several months ago, did not make a difference. The three amusement parks in the state are operating five days a week and when you go there are closed attractions; the attractions that are open are operated by one person instead of 2 - 3. Same with restaurants, most are reduced hours and only five days a week, others are at half capacity. We need the foreign labor back, people staying unemployed to collect an extra $300 / week are not about to stand in the blazing sun and run a roller-coaster all summer.


You have to remember that while they may not work at the amusement park but the higher end (not saying high end) jobs are hiring less qualified people so the pool gets smaller for the low end jobs. It’s a domino effect.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Get back to work and stop living off my hard work.   If you don't think people are loving not having to work and getting another $300 per week, you are sorely mistaken.
> 
> Hell I had an engineer apply for a position who lost his job last year and hasn't worked in a year. When asked in an initial phone interview why he hasn't worked, he essentially said that he was living off unemployment.    Needless to say his resume went into the trash.   I need motivated people not someone who is willing to coast ont the work of others.
> 
> So the moral of the story is we've been paying people to not work for way too long.  EVERYONE is hiring and in most cases way above Minimum wage.  Time for these folks tp Get off their ass and get a job.


I agree with you but I can also see how people are fed up with giving up their time to make paychecks that can’t cover their basic bills.


----------



## kingslug (Aug 24, 2021)

A vid I watched a few weeks ago put an interesting spin on the NYC problem. People are not only sick of making crap money and then spend it all on living in a small crap apt..but the whole scene is a bit depressing. He focused on riding the subways..and yeah I get it. But I never in my life went on unemployment. I always felt that even if you start at the bottom..if your good and someone sees that you can move up..you can't move up if you do nothing. After I sold my business I worked 3 jobs 7 days a week to pay for my house..so I have no sympathy for this. Now is a great opportunity for those willing to work..you may start at minimum wage but end up doing well.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 24, 2021)

Isn't private industry attempting to deal with the minimum wage?  not because they want to, but because they have to.  Yeah $15/hr isn't going to get you shit in NY

the fact of the matter is everything probably needs to cost more if labor is more expensive.  I'm willing to deal with that


----------



## Hawk (Aug 24, 2021)

Sugarbush theard goes covid, housing, NYC or politics once again.   LOL

Back on Track......The Von Trapp greenhouse is closing at the end of the month.  I will miss that place.  If you have never walkded thier gardens, it is a spcail place.  I think half of the perrenials that my wife has planted came from there.  Good people.


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Aug 24, 2021)

Industry needs to stop whining and step up if they want to get employees. And if they want decent employees they need to step up even more. Mount Bohemia gets it….



MOUNT BOHEMIA BUMPS TO $20 AN HOUR​
https://www.saminfo.com/news/sam-he...ps_to_20_an_hour_and_more&utm_term=2021-08-23


----------



## cdskier (Aug 24, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Back on Track......The Von Trapp greenhouse is closing at the end of the month.  I will miss that place.  If you have never walkded thier gardens, it is a spcail place.  I think half of the perrenials that my wife has planted came from there.  Good people.



Oh...that's sad. They have some absolutely beautiful gardens.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

urungus said:


> 3% of Vermont’s population of 623,989 would be 18,720 people.  So the number of people collecting seems about right, when you consider some people are too young to work, etc
> 
> Also I find it sad that the reaction to people losing their unemployment benefits is not sympathy for the destitute, but “this will be great for businesses”.



There have always been those who live off the system and many very capable.  But many are uneducated and have nor drive so getting a check from the government is the easier thing to do.  Unfortunately those ranks have grow with Covid.  It is a different life style than most of us will ever understand.  I knew people in my home town that got welfare checks and would work under the table at a local farm and do pretty good.  There are two camps in the unemployed those who are looking for a job but cannot find one - I feel bad for them, and those who are collecting a check an do not plan to work I do not feel bad for those.

Great for business is not a bad thing - it is what drives our economy.  Many of the businesses are the small businesses that struggle to exist.


----------



## Hawk (Aug 24, 2021)

My wife was there last weekend and they said that it's time to do something different.  The greenhouse and garden take up all of their time.  They may do so pop up locations to sell perrenials and they will be letting people take picures in the gardens with appointments I thiink.


----------



## Hawk (Aug 24, 2021)

It's easy for well off people to look down thier nose at the less fortunate.  It's easy for well off people to classify anybody that needs a helping hand as lazy. It is hard to look at the overall picture and understand what the differences are. 

Suagarbush looks awsome later this week.  cant wait to get up there.  Soon enough.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 24, 2021)

Coming up on the 10 year anniversary of Irene.  I wish the country had rallied around Covid they way Vermonters rallied around each other to recover from Irene.  I spent a lot of time up there after Irene volunteering and I have never experienced a sense of community like that.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 24, 2021)

sandy was similar in nyc. neighbors helping neighbors in a big way. and I presume new orleans after katrina felt similarly. 

these were all localized disasters, with massive physical impacts in specific geographic areas and communities. its a lot easier to rally around your neighbors in the face of physical destruction vs doing anything on a national level, especially when the danger is so abstract and invisible

irene was such a nothing in nyc. i remember preparing as if we were about to get walloped and then it was a fizzle to nothing


----------



## djd66 (Aug 24, 2021)

I was up at the Bush last week and  the Paradise Deli had to shut down the deli on Sunday because they did not have anyone to work. I have no idea what they are paying for wages, but they are certainly not some huge conglomerate that is banking million of $$.   Will shutting off unemployment for the 3% that are on it help? Probably not, but at the end of the day - enough is enough!  The small businesses that are relying on help to run their business are getting killed right now for many reasons and it certainly does not help matters when you are paying people who refuse to work.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

Hawk said:


> It's easy for well off people to look down thier nose at the less fortunate.  It's easy for well off people to classify anybody that needs a helping hand as lazy. It is hard to look at the overall picture and understand what the differences are.
> 
> Suagarbush looks awesome later this week.  cant wait to get up there.  Soon enough.



Look there are plenty of people that are able to work but the government dole is too easy to take and for some they make more.  Our family got hit last year 3 of four boys lost their jobs and my wife and I also lost our jobs.  Did any of us stick around to collect?  NO!  Two of our sons were getting more on unemployment yet for one his pride got him focused on a new job with in a month.  Our other son, did take advantage of it for a bit then got bored and also found a job.  Our youngest went into the military, I was furloughed with 2 months severance and found a job in about 1.5 months and my wife (3 months severance) had the greatest difficulty since the recruiting industry decided to under cut salaries big time.   She was patient and got he old job back. 

So I do have empathy the the truly unable to work of FIND a job.  For those who want to kick back and have a hyper long vacation well I do not feel sorry for that.  And yes there are many that are lazy.  There are also some that do not want to start at the bottom but you have to start somewhere.  Opportunity does not come looking for you it is the other way around.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 24, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I was up at the Bush last week and  the Paradise Deli had to shut down the deli on Sunday because they did not have anyone to work. I have no idea what they are paying for wages, but they are certainly not some huge conglomerate that is banking million of $$.   Will shutting off unemployment for the 3% that are on it help? Probably not, but at the end of the day - enough is enough!  The small businesses that are relying on help to run their business are getting killed right now for many reasons and it certainly does not help matters when you are paying people who refuse to work.


I don't know why there is such a problem finding workers but the evidence to date doesnt support the argument that its due to overly generous unemployment benefits.  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/23/opinion/workers-wages-recovery.html
maybe those benefits have to be unavailable for some time before workers feel compelled to return to work.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 24, 2021)

i almost posted that krugman piece in here earlier today.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't know why there is such a problem finding workers but the evidence to date doesnt support the argument that its due to overly generous unemployment benefits.  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/23/opinion/workers-wages-recovery.html
> maybe those benefits have to be unavailable for some time before workers feel compelled to return to work.



it does not have to be overly generous it could even be equal.  There is a woman I know that worked for the same company I did who had a very good salary - over 90K.  She lost here job and started looking for a new job but after a couple months, there was not job that replaced her old income.  She has been riding this out to the max because while it is still less than here old income, new jobs would be less than unemployment with the extra $300 per week.  She is part of the discouraged worked that is counted in the real unemployment numbers.  And she will stay there since she was schedule to retire in a year or so.

Discouraged workers are people who have given up looking for work but would take a job if offered at the right wage.


----------



## HowieT2 (Aug 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> it does not have to be overly generous it could even be equal.  There is a woman I know that worked for the same company I did who had a very good salary - over 90K.  She lost here job and started looking for a new job but after a couple months, there was not job that replaced her old income.  She has been riding this out to the max because while it is still less than here old income, new jobs would be less than unemployment with the extra $300 per week.  She is part of the discouraged worked that is counted in the real unemployment numbers.  And she will stay there since she was schedule to retire in a year or so.
> 
> Discouraged workers are people who have given up looking for work but would take a job if offered at the right wage.


the woman isnt really looking to work again, she is just collecting unemployment benefits while eligible and the additional $300 is immaterial to her calculus.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> the woman isnt really looking to work again, she is just collecting unemployment benefits while eligible and the additional $300 is immaterial to her calculus.



and extra $300 definitely helps - she qualifies for max unemployment in CO and then the extra $300 per week on top of that?  If that would not have been the case she told me that she would have had to find another job.  300 per week is like $15000+ per year and there are no weeks without pay while collecting it.


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Aug 24, 2021)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> *  There are also some that do not want to start at the bottom* but you have to start somewhere.



_The Millennials_


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i almost posted that krugman piece in here earlier today.



There's never a correct time to post a Paul Krugman piece.  Economic Pravda of the (intentionally & necessarily) most facile & often deceptive sort.


----------



## slatham (Aug 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> _The Millennials_


Ha one of the best non-skiing pieces posted here, *ever *


----------



## ducky (Sep 12, 2021)

AirBnb owners are frequently offering $35-$40/hr to clean their places for the next weekend renter. Restaurant owners are offering $20-$25 and getting nobody. AirBnb has slowly taken the long-term rental housing stock off the market. Why wait tables or work a lift when you can clean rich peoples' second homes for $35-$40/hr? I'm considering doing it myself.


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## kingslug (Sep 13, 2021)

I'll be moving to VT soon..cleaning houses...hmmm...I owned a commercial cleaning company for 5 years...30 to 40 an hour..I'm in.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Sep 13, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I'll be moving to VT soon..cleaning houses...hmmm...I owned a commercial cleaning company for 5 years...30 to 40 an hour..I'm in.


Here you go, another ad, just posted this morning. Time to apply!


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## kingslug (Sep 13, 2021)

Then again..there was a reason I sold the company..


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## HowieT2 (Sep 13, 2021)

when do the bike trails close?  11/1?


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## kingslug (Sep 13, 2021)

Going to take the winter off and put the house for sale in March...Then move into the condo and look for a house and a part time job...thats the plan anyway.


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## ducky (Sep 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> when do the bike trails close?  11/1?


Hunting season. Youth Weekend is Oct 23-24. Muzzle Antlerless (doe) is Oct 28-31, Rifle Nov 13-28. Main muzzle Dec 4-12. Bike trails are closed during hunting season. (there is also no house cleaning during this time)






						White-Tailed Deer | Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department
					






					vtfishandwildlife.com


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Sep 13, 2021)

Has anyone heard if sugarbush will do quad packs or $30 thursdays at Mt Ellen again this year? I havent heard/seen anything but I figure some here may be "in the know".

In the past we would ski either wednesday or friday with the quad pass, and thurday at Mt Ellen  2-3 times per year.

Sadly, I think they are a thing of the past and if so, my days at Sugarbush will be severly limited if not gone....I cant swing last year's day pass prices for a famlty of four for 1 day + a night at a hotel on top of my other winter commitiments. 

Thanks all, wont be too long now.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 13, 2021)

ducky said:


> Hunting season. Youth Weekend is Oct 23-24. Muzzle Antlerless (doe) is Oct 28-31, Rifle Nov 13-28. Main muzzle Dec 4-12. Bike trails are closed during hunting season. (there is also no house cleaning during this time)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks ducky


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## ducky (Sep 14, 2021)

I see many NFL stadiums (inc last night's Raiders/Ravens game in LV) and the US Open Tennis tournament require proof of vaccination to enter. Wonder if SB and MRG will do this. There was talk of Stowe leaning that direction too. If not, I would expect restrictions to be like last year with masks, limited lift capacity, etc.


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## mikec142 (Sep 14, 2021)

ducky said:


> I see many NFL stadiums (inc last night's Raiders/Ravens game in LV) and the US Open Tennis tournament require proof of vaccination to enter. Wonder if SB and MRG will do this. There was talk of Stowe leaning that direction too. If not, I would expect restrictions to be like last year with masks, limited lift capacity, etc.


I hope they require proof of vax although I don't know how easy it would be to police that.  If there are lift capacity limits like last year, but no strict quarantine limits to visit VT, it could be a mess.  Last years lift lines at SB were a pleasant surprise.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 14, 2021)

I don't think we're going to see requirements for outside.  Inside masking.


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## slatham (Sep 14, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I hope they require proof of vax although I don't know how easy it would be to police that.  If there are lift capacity limits like last year, but no strict quarantine limits to visit VT, it could be a mess.  Last years lift lines at SB were a pleasant surprise.


On vaccination policing, first stop would be IKON passes, but they probably can't limit access to only vaccinated pass holders without offering a refund to the unvaccinated. But easy to require pass holders to load CDC card just like they do for picture. Then for any online sales, require the same loading of proof of vaccination before sale goes through. For the few walks ups (they still do that?) you would have to show the card.

Of course there is always the fake card, but that is fraud and that is hard to police.


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## tumbler (Sep 14, 2021)

The VT State Police can get you the fake card if you need.


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## mikec142 (Sep 14, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The VT State Police can get you the fake card if you need.


Hahaha.  Saw that.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 15, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Has anyone heard if sugarbush will do quad packs or $30 thursdays at Mt Ellen again this year? I havent heard/seen anything but I figure some here may be "in the know".
> 
> In the past we would ski either wednesday or friday with the quad pass, and thurday at Mt Ellen  2-3 times per year.
> 
> ...



Just received an e-mail today saying Quad Packs are back. I believe the prices seem higher than I remember, although it has been a while since I bought one (and honestly I thought they were a bit TOO cheap for a while).

Purchase by October 14th and it is $399 for a transferable unrestricted quad pack. There's also a new mid-week Quad pack that is $299 through October 14th.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 15, 2021)

Ask anybody who’s done it for a season or more: working on a mountain can be one of the best ways to spend a winter. A $15 resort-wide minimum wage, affordable employee housing options, free skiing, resort discounts, and flexible schedules are all great perks, but getting to join a hardworking, like-minded community that’s dedicated to enjoying our endless outdoor playground makes working at Sugarbush unlike anywhere else. The Mad River Valley is an amazing place to grow and call home, and truly let’s you enjoy the best of what Vermont has to offer. If you’re considering heading to the mountains this winter, or you’re already here and looking for a fun and exciting new opportunity- Sugarbush is hiring! Head to the link below for more information about open roles. Make this your best winter yet. 





__





						Employment Opportunities
					

Have a love for the mountains? Have a Season Worthwhile.




					www.sugarbush.com


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Just received an e-mail today saying Quad Packs are back. I believe the prices seem higher than I remember, although it has been a while since I bought one (and honestly I thought they were a bit TOO cheap for a while).
> 
> Purchase by October 14th and it is $399 for a transferable unrestricted quad pack. There's also a new mid-week Quad pack that is $299 through October 14th.



$100 for a day - nope!


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## mikec142 (Sep 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Just received an e-mail today saying Quad Packs are back. I believe the prices seem higher than I remember, although it has been a while since I bought one (and honestly I thought they were a bit TOO cheap for a while).
> 
> Purchase by October 14th and it is $399 for a transferable unrestricted quad pack. There's also a new mid-week Quad pack that is $299 through October 14th.


In 2019 I believe the early bird price on a no restriction quad pack was all in with taxes $285.  The raise to $400 before taxes is a lot.  It's indicative of what full pay single day lift tickets will cost (last year $169).


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> In 2019 I believe the early bird price on a no restriction quad pack was all in with taxes $285.  The raise to $400 before taxes is a lot.  It's indicative of what full pay single day lift tickets will cost (last year $169).


Yea...it is pretty high (although as a passholder I'm not necessarily complaining if it means a bit less crowds). For comparison you could get a 4-pack of Epic tickets valid at Stowe for $300 (or only $255 if you're ok with holiday blackouts). Granted that is not a transferable product, so not an apples to apples comparison, but still pretty close.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 16, 2021)

you can buy tickets to Killington now for $85 I don't believe they have blackouts either.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Ask anybody who’s done it for a season or more: working on a mountain can be one of the best ways to spend a winter. A $15 resort-wide minimum wage, affordable employee housing options, free skiing, resort discounts, and flexible schedules are all great perks, but getting to join a hardworking, like-minded community that’s dedicated to enjoying our endless outdoor playground makes working at Sugarbush unlike anywhere else. The Mad River Valley is an amazing place to grow and call home, and truly let’s you enjoy the best of what Vermont has to offer. If you’re considering heading to the mountains this winter, or you’re already here and looking for a fun and exciting new opportunity- Sugarbush is hiring! Head to the link below for more information about open roles. Make this your best winter yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did it once a long time ago.  Super fun and made life long friends.  The issue at sugarbush is finding a place to live.  Share house is the only way and Covid has made that option much more limited.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

The lack of qualified people for certain staffing positions will be a very big issue this year.  I bet we see issues across the board that effect operations like lifts and food services.


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## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

The price of the quad pack is a harbinger of the prices we will see at the window.  Hold on to your wallet.

Personally I am not that concerned as a pass holder.  Based on my observations and coversations last year, I think we at Sugarbush are going to see unpesidented numbers at the mountain this year.  I am getting out early and then going skinning I think.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 17, 2021)

To me $18.00 an hour to be a lift mechanic is a bit low..not an easy job and a lot of peoples lives are at stake due to the work performed on these machines.


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## mikec142 (Sep 17, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The price of the quad pack is a harbinger of the prices we will see at the window.  Hold on to your wallet.
> 
> Personally I am not that concerned as a pass holder.  Based on my observations and coversations last year, I think we at Sugarbush are going to see unpesidented numbers at the mountain this year.  I am getting out early and then going skinning I think.


I'm somewhat concerned about crowding as well.  For me, last season was great crowd wise.  Even the most crowded weekend wasn't that bad.  But I believe that was due to two main reasons.  First, VT's strict quarantine rules kept some people away.  Second, some people were more cautious than others (not judging) and that kept some people away.  If VT doesn't have quarantine rules in place then all of those people will come.  I would think running the lifts at full capacity will alleviate some of that crowding, but we shall see.

I'll be interested to see how the new season plays out for me and my family.  We boot up at the car anyway, so no changes there.  I think the biggest changes for us will be that my kids like to grab lunch in the lodge and my wife who no longer skis tends to hang in the lodge with a book or her laptop.  If those options are available, they might be of interest to them.  I'm cool either way...fully vaxxed, cool with wearing a mask indoors, also cool with sitting outside and grabbing a bite or using my car as my own personal ski lodge.  Bottom line, when skiing solo, I'm all good.  When skiing with the family, I'm happier, but have a few more logistical concerns on my mind because I'm all about making sure my family is happy.  The happier they are, the more likely they are to endure the drive with me more often.

Either way, it is what it is.  I'm just excited to be skiing again.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

Funny you use the lift mechanics as an example.  Those positions will playout as a key in near future.


----------



## SkiTheEast (Sep 17, 2021)

Don't want this to come across as tone deaf given we're still in the throes of a pandemic but genuinely curious what Alterra's longer term plan/vision is for Sugarbush, i.e. how they're prioritizing capital expenditures.  I know Win has posted his wish list here in the past so wondering how that dovetails with any new corporate plans. 

Given the timing of the sale right at the start of the pandemic we never saw any announcements from either Sugarbush or Alterra on 2020 or 2021 capital improvements (understandably given these trying times - though they still announced big investments in other portfolio resorts).


----------



## kingslug (Sep 17, 2021)

If these things don't work..people don't ski...yes it will be a big problem.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

I have been up here a fair amount.  If they are doing any upgrades other than the new Vermont Adaptive expansion at North, it is not noticible.  Actually they reworked the stream at the bottom of the Village Quad.  They took out the culvert piping and made it open so you can see it.  Not sure why but it looks nice.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 17, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm somewhat concerned about crowding as well.  For me, last season was great crowd wise.  Even the most crowded weekend wasn't that bad.  But I believe that was due to two main reasons.  First, VT's strict quarantine rules kept some people away.  Second, some people were more cautious than others (not judging) and that kept some people away.  If VT doesn't have quarantine rules in place then all of those people will come.  I would think running the lifts at full capacity will alleviate some of that crowding, but we shall see.
> 
> I'll be interested to see how the new season plays out for me and my family.  We boot up at the car anyway, so no changes there.  I think the biggest changes for us will be that my kids like to grab lunch in the lodge and my wife who no longer skis tends to hang in the lodge with a book or her laptop.  If those options are available, they might be of interest to them.  I'm cool either way...fully vaxxed, cool with wearing a mask indoors, also cool with sitting outside and grabbing a bite or using my car as my own personal ski lodge.  Bottom line, when skiing solo, I'm all good.  When skiing with the family, I'm happier, but have a few more logistical concerns on my mind because I'm all about making sure my family is happy.  The happier they are, the more likely they are to endure the drive with me more often.
> 
> Either way, it is what it is.  I'm just excited to be skiing again.


Yes I agree.  It is what it is.  I spent a good amount of time last year talking to bunches of new people.  I was interested in what they thought.  Just about every last one said that they loved Sugarbush and the vibe.  They did not realize that the skiing was so good and the variety of options for skiing were so vase.  Most were psyched that it became part of the IKON World and they were making it thier base mountian.  The cat is out of the bag so to speak.  ;-)  There are going to be many, many new people out there.  If you have a share house up here and are not afraid of new people, I would float it out there if you are looking for people.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2021)

This is the last I recall seeing about what was planned this summer...



> One of this summer’s bigger capital projects has already kicked off, as we have begun replacing all the snowmaking lines on Northstar at Mt. Ellen.
> 
> This snowmaking project is important as it will allow us to get beginner terrain at Mt. Ellen open much earlier in the season, which is feedback we hear from many of you. Other projects this year are focused on cleaning up our skiable wooded areas and slope maintenance (water bars, mowing, trail edging). We are also finalizing some other additional improvements and will be sharing them with you soon



Maybe those other "additional improvements" never came to fruition. Or I missed the announcement...


----------



## tumbler (Sep 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I have been up here a fair amount.  If they are doing any upgrades other than the new Vermont Adaptive expansion at North, it is not noticible.  Actually they reworked the stream at the bottom of the Village Quad.  They took out the culvert piping and made it open so you can see it.  Not sure why but it looks nice.


My guess is it was a stream reclamation project required by the NFS as part of the new lift.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Just received an e-mail today saying Quad Packs are back. I believe the prices seem higher than I remember, although it has been a while since I bought one (and honestly I thought they were a bit TOO cheap for a while).
> 
> Purchase by October 14th and it is $399 for a transferable unrestricted quad pack. There's also a new mid-week Quad pack that is $299 through October 14th.



yep, saw that this weekend. disapointed but not surprised.

The old Quadpacks were $259 in 2019. that year I could get a day pass for 70-80 bucks max if I bought it ahead of time. They were a good deal. 

Last year I saw the jump in ticket prices,  thought "well, thats OK its just this year". 

Shame on me.

The midweek one isnt that bad a deal but the blackout dates in february kills it for me because I used the quad passes to get my kids up there midweek. I've never skied Sugarbush on a weekend and don't want to start this year. In the past I would get a couple quad packs,  pull my kids out of elementary school and we would go spend a couple days up there midweek once or twice a year. Thats place really helped them develop into great skiers. 

Now my son is in seventh grade and missing a day of school really makes him work hard to catch up on homework etc., So pulling him out midweek is no longer an option, his mid week ski days will be on school vacation days....so that mid week pass dosent help me.

If me and friends want to buy it for mid week trips i may get one, but the days of me skiing there with my kids are over, which sucks. I will not pay $100 a day to ski. I'm sorry, thats just my limit.  I havent seen the per day pricing yet, but I'm sure it'll be $100+ no matter how far in advance you buy them. 

I'm assuming $30 Thursdays at ME are a thing of the past as well.

We got the epic pass this year so I will take the $400 I'd spend on that quad pass and spend it on a cheap hotel near Stowe (it will buy me 2 nights at a dive hotel, I've checked) and we will ski Stow 3 days midweek in school vacation week instead of Sugarbush this year. New Hampshire and Vermont's school vacation weeks in February is the week after New York and Massachusetts so the crowds shouldn't be that bad. They've never been that bad in New Hampshire that week anyway. And yes I bought the epic pass that lets me ski stowe with no blackout dates. We may spend some time around Christmas up there as well depending on conditions.

I know there's a lot of hatred for Vail on this site and who knows after this year maybe I'll hate them too, but until they give me a reason to I'm excited for the epic pass but I will miss Sugarbush.

Enjoy fellas I hope you have a kick ass season up there this year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> yep, saw that this weekend. disapointed but not surprised.
> 
> The old Quadpacks were $259 in 2019. that year I could get a day pass for 70-80 bucks max if I bought it ahead of time. They were a good deal.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think it is fair to say that local deals are now history at Sugarbush.  The model that Vail and Alterra follow means that those programs are cut in favor of the big pass product and forcing people to that product.


----------



## WWF-VT (Sep 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> We got the epic pass this year so I will take the $400 I'd spend on that quad pass and spend it on a cheap hotel near Stowe (it will buy me 2 nights at a dive hotel, I've checked) and we will ski Stow 3 days midweek in school vacation week instead of Sugarbush this year. New Hampshire and Vermont's school vacation weeks in February is the week after New York and Massachusetts so the crowds shouldn't be that bad. They've never been that bad in New Hampshire that week anyway. And yes I bought the epic pass that lets me ski stowe with no blackout dates. We may spend some time around Christmas up there as well depending on conditions.


You bought an Epic Pass and bitching that Sugarbush has raised the price for Quad Packs. 

Welcome to the world where an unrestricted day ticket for $100 is considered a deal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> You bought an Epic Pass and bitching that Sugarbush has raised the price for Quad Packs.
> 
> Welcome to the world where an unrestricted day ticket for $100 is considered a deal.


You do have a point….


----------



## kingslug (Sep 21, 2021)

Don't know if this year will be the same as last..but SB was not crowded at all on weekend..even when it was dumping. They were all at Stowe.


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## Hawk (Sep 21, 2021)

We will see but as I stated above,  I think the wave is coming like we have never seen before.


----------



## ducky (Sep 21, 2021)

Stowe has a proof of vaccine requirement for all dining facilities, as well as all employees.








						Winter Experience | Stowe
					






					www.stowe.com
				




Stowe's pass prices (Epic) came down this year. The Epic Local was 539, now 599, and the full Epic pass is still just 799. SB seems to have a similar pricing structure if a tad higher. I am always shocked that anyone buys day tickets considering the season pass platforms available and the unlimited access options they provide.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> We will see but as I stated above,  I think the wave is coming like we have never seen before.


Yeah, I don't wish what we have experienced out here in SLC with IKON on you.  But I think that there are major differences--namely that Sugarbush is 4 hours away from a metro area (BOS) and is the northernmost IKON resort in Vermont.  We, in the SLC metro area, have over 1 mill people within an hour from the areas (and growing).  I would expect that LP would have some busy days but ME would still be relatively quiet.  Pretty good for a 2,000+ vertical area.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Sep 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Don't know if this year will be the same as last..but SB was not crowded at all on weekend..even when it was dumping. They were all at Stowe.


That's the way it's always been... it was crowded at SB last year... I thinks that you are just used to $teaux


----------



## Hawk (Sep 21, 2021)

The lines we have seen over the last 10 years have been very consitent.  Standing in line for 10 minutes or less is not that bad.   I do not call that crowded.  Last year the numbers were less but we had no singles or grouping up. Still it was not that bad.  it moved along.  I think that this year we will see bunches on new full time skiers.  I gess we will see and have something to talk about.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Sep 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Don't know if this year will be the same as last..but SB was not crowded at all on weekend..even when it was dumping. They were all at Stowe.


If this is any indication, I normally book New Years at SB in October.  I was bored and started looking for lodging a few weeks ago.  There is nothing, I mean nothing for lodging around SB.  Years past this wouldn't be a problem.  I then went to other Ikon properties and it was the same thing, no lodging.  It seems that if you want to ski Ikon you will have issues with lodging this year.  If you go to an indenpent resort like Smuggs thier won't be as much as an issue.


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## cdskier (Sep 21, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> If this is any indication, I normally book New Years at SB in October.  I was bored and started looking for lodging a few weeks ago.  There is nothing, I mean nothing for lodging around SB.  Years past this wouldn't be a problem.  I then went to other Ikon properties and it was the same thing, no lodging.  It seems that if you want to ski Ikon you will have issues with lodging this year.  If you go to an indenpent resort like Smuggs thier won't be as much as an issue.



What kind of lodging are you looking for? I just looked at 5 different lodges/inns in the area as well as AirBnB and see quite a bit of availability around New Years weekend.


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## kingslug (Sep 21, 2021)

I was there when it snowed 3 days straight 2/8, 2/9, 2/10..never stood on a line..it was empty..I was shocked..yes it was a mon, tues, wed..but at Stowe they come out of the woodworks no matter what day it is if its snowing...all I kept asking was..where are the people??


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> If this is any indication, I normally book New Years at SB in October.  I was bored and started looking for lodging a few weeks ago.  There is nothing, I mean nothing for lodging around SB.  Years past this wouldn't be a problem.  I then went to other Ikon properties and it was the same thing, no lodging.  It seems that if you want to ski Ikon you will have issues with lodging this year.  If you go to an indenpent resort like Smuggs thier won't be as much as an issue.



i mean, that's just simply not true.

these are the first 4 results for Thursday December 30 to Sunday January 2. if i were to expand the search out to Waterbury there would be even more. 

this is the result of about 15 seconds of low effort.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

and an additional 2 seconds of scrolling to reveal the next 4 fine options within 5 miles of sugarbush...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

I really think the Al natural state that SB is left in keeps people away.  While most on a ski forum like it this way, the masses want nice groomed terrain.


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## tumbler (Sep 21, 2021)

I'm cautiously optimistic that the crowds will not be awful because there are other options for people to do, like go to warmth and the kids extracurricular activities will be happening where last winter not many were.  Regardless, we are on the hill early and know how to move around with the crowd.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

place is def pretty rowdy for gen-pop. there is also a serious lack of true beginner terrain. a modestly icey push-over scared the crap out of my girlfriend and she was limited to easy rider and the village quad. she's a true spaz of a beginner but I reckon many other true spaz beginners have the same experience off of gatehouse.


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## cdskier (Sep 21, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i mean, that's just simply not true.
> 
> these are the first 4 results for Thursday December 30 to Sunday January 2. if i were to expand the search out to Waterbury there would be even more.
> 
> this is the result of about 15 seconds of low effort.


Yea...nearly all lodges I looked at right in the Mad River Valley had more rooms available than booked in the New Years time-frame. Only website I went to that came up with nearly nothing was Sugarbush's own site (but you can't really see many details on why they show nothing...is it because the haven't made stuff available? Or are they really sold out? Or are they only accepting longer stays, etc. When you go to many of the individual lodges, they show you room by room what is available vs booked).


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## kingslug (Sep 21, 2021)

SB is a very different place than Stowe..Now that I've been there more I prefer it. The terrain for the most part is pretty hairy..not that Stowe isn't ..but they tend to close runs when SB keeps them open no matter what. And CR..is like no other..


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

i think stowe is better for high elevation open tree skiing, but sugarbush is better for just about everything else. a lot of the trees at sugarbush are fairly low on the mountain. at least the marked ones. plenty of unmarked ones higher up but they are pretty dang tight.


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## kingslug (Sep 21, 2021)

Its the one thing I really wish I was better at..tree skiing . It opens up a whole world at Stowe. But I'm not venturing too far in there alone..I've been in there with some very good skiers and it was a bit over my head. Getting better at it though..Last season I spent as much time in the trees at Gore as I could..when they were open. And some at SB.


----------



## HowieT2 (Sep 21, 2021)

My daughter is on the exec board of her college ski club and interest in it has exploded.  Their annual trip to tremblant sold out in minutes.

personally, our seasonal rental fell through recently when the owner backed out so I'm scrounging for anything.  may have to actually fly somewhere to ski.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> SB is a very different place than Stowe..Now that I've been there more I prefer it. The terrain for the most part is pretty hairy..not that Stowe isn't ..but they tend to close runs when SB keeps them open no matter what. And CR..is like no other..


I wonder if Alterra will continue the liberal open-terrain policy.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

i dont think its gonna change. they kept hammond in charge of things and seem to mean it when they say they don't want to change local character and culture. last season was typical liberal ski it if you dare sugarbush.


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 21, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> If this is any indication, I normally book New Years at SB in October.  I was bored and started looking for lodging a few weeks ago.  There is nothing, I mean nothing for lodging around SB.  Years past this wouldn't be a problem.  I then went to other Ikon properties and it was the same thing, no lodging.  It seems that if you want to ski Ikon you will have issues with lodging this year.  If you go to an indenpent resort like Smuggs thier won't be as much as an issue.


 condo or house. 2bed if possible.  I looked on VRBO and SB site


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

so you checked the shitty airbnb and official resort lodging? way to go.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Sep 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> SB is a very different place than Stowe..Now that I've been there more I prefer it. The terrain for the most part is pretty hairy..not that Stowe isn't ..but they tend to close runs when SB keeps them open no matter what. And CR..is like no other..


My biggest fear about IKON, even more than crowds, is that they start closing trails down like that. I love that it is up to the skier to determine where they want to ski, regardless. It is one of the biggest things that separates SB from other areas and helps make trails less crowded for everyone. People may bitch about lack of snowmaking (some of which may be true), but I love the gnar they leave open for us!


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## tumbler (Sep 21, 2021)

The factor on trail openings or closings will have to do with the number of patrollers that are on the mountain.  I hope that they are fully staffed, if not stuff going to be closed.


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## cdskier (Sep 21, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> condo or house. 2bed if possible.  I looked on VRBO and SB site



AirBnB shows multiple listing that meet that criteria in the MRV for New Years weekend.


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## mikec142 (Sep 22, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> That's the way it's always been... it was crowded at SB last year... I thinks that you are just used to $teaux


I guess you would have to define "crowded".  For me, I felt that last year was the least crowded it's been in years.


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## Hawk (Sep 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont think its gonna change. they kept hammond in charge of things and seem to mean it when they say they don't want to change local character and culture. last season was typical liberal ski it if you dare sugarbush.


To add to this, I had a conversation with Win last year and also on the lift with Hammond.  They both said that Altura has no interest in fooling around with the Daily operations or culture of Sugasrbush.  They have stated on multiple ocasions that the loyalty and devotion of the people at Sugarbush is what makes the place work so why mess with that.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 22, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I guess you would have to define "crowded".  For me, I felt that last year was the least crowded it's been in years.


I agree with this.  Like I said above, taking into acount the lift restrictions and weird line configurations, the wait times basically the same as the last 10 or so years.  10 minutes at most.   I say this as a person that skies 40+ days a year for the last 15 at shugarbush.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 22, 2021)

Its why I was willing to spend day tix prices 4 times..It was worth it. And why we are going to move in between Stowe and SB..hopefully Waterbury.


----------



## mikec142 (Sep 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Its why I was willing to spend day tix prices 4 times..It was worth it. And why we are going to move in between Stowe and SB..hopefully Waterbury.


FWIW, I think Waterbury gives a ton of optionality.  Skiing wise, it's pretty much equidistant from SB, MRG, and Stowe. It's about 10 minutes further to Smuggs and It's very close to Bolton.  Additionally you are 30 minutes from downtown Burlington.  On days where it's nuking snow, it might not be that great a solution.  But most days it sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2021)

i'd love to buy in waterbury, it really has it all. solid little local food and beer scene. proximity to stowe, sugarbush, mad river glen. proximity to montpelier and to burlington. just off an interstate.


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## mikec142 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I agree with this.  Like I said above, taking into acount the lift restrictions and weird line configurations, the wait times basically the same as the last 10 or so years.  10 minutes at most.   I say this as a person that skies 40+ days a year for the last 15 at shugarbush.


Hawk, I would say 10 minutes at Gate House on the most crowded weekend.  Most days were less than five minutes everywhere on the mountain (except CR) and many times (especially after 11am) it was ski right onto the lift.

Last season we skied on President's day weekend and it was practically empty on Saturday and Sunday.  Granted it was very cold, but that shouldn't have kept the masses away.  I was told later that it's a black out weekend for the Ikon Base pass which certainly helps explain things.  But still, I was shocked!

Side note, I'd be curious to know the breakdown of the Ikon Pass and Epic Pass.  What percentage of the purchasers get the full pass vs. the base pass.  For a guy like me who still has a kid in high school (and another in college) the MLK, PD and Christmas week holidays are still gonna be prime ski times.  So to save the $260 and give up those times doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Then again, if I were retired or not accounting for my kids, and I was already skiing a ton I could see bowing out of those days.  My parents spend the winter in Florida.  They play golf 5 days/week.  They don't play Saturday cuz it's crowded (and they need a day to run errands).


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2021)

i do base pass plus indy pass. indy covers blackout dates and gives me places that are less likely to be crowded on those primo family weekends.


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## kingslug (Sep 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i do base pass plus indy pass. indy covers blackout dates and gives me places that are less likely to be crowded on those primo family weekends.


Probably why inventory is limited..but we will find something.


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## ducky (Sep 23, 2021)

10 min lift lines send me running.

Wonder if SB and Stowe would ever work together to offer a dual mountain pass, say $1200 that they could both share in. Otoh, An early buy Mt Ellen Pass plus an Epic Local costs under $1,100. I bought the Epic Local to ski with Stowe friends two years in a row but only made it 13 times each year. Hard to justify for me with SB and MRG right here and not an hour away and I usually log over a hundred days.

The Stowe Area Association, Waterbury Chamber, and MRV Chamber of Commerce have a group marketing effort this year, spearheaded by Eric Friedman, featuring Vermont Route 100 as a multi-town destination.


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## Hawk (Sep 23, 2021)

LOL says the local guy that skis mostly midweek.  I do envy you.


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## Hawk (Sep 23, 2021)

ducky said:


> 10 min lift lines send me running.
> 
> Wonder if SB and Stowe would ever work together to offer a dual mountain pass, say $1200 that they could both share in. Otoh, An early buy Mt Ellen Pass plus an Epic Local costs under $1,100. I bought the Epic Local to ski with Stowe friends two years in a row but only made it 13 times each year. Hard to justify for me with SB and MRG right here and not an hour away and I usually log over a hundred days.
> 
> The Stowe Area Association, Waterbury Chamber, and MRV Chamber of Commerce have a group marketing effort this year, spearheaded by Eric Friedman, featuring Vermont Route 100 as a multi-town destination.


I had a beer with Ed Reed and Eric last year and talk about this very thing.  Sounds like they have some good ideas but nothing concrete yet?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Sep 23, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Hawk, I would say 10 minutes at Gate House on the most crowded weekend.  Most days were less than five minutes everywhere on the mountain (except CR) and many times (especially after 11am) it was ski right onto the lift.
> 
> Last season we skied on President's day weekend and it was practically empty on Saturday and Sunday.  Granted it was very cold, but that shouldn't have kept the masses away.  I was told later that it's a black out weekend for the Ikon Base pass which certainly helps explain things.  But still, I was shocked!
> 
> Side note, I'd be curious to know the breakdown of the Ikon Pass and Epic Pass.  What percentage of the purchasers get the full pass vs. the base pass.  For a guy like me who still has a kid in high school (and another in college) the MLK, PD and Christmas week holidays are still gonna be prime ski times.  So to save the $260 and give up those times doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Then again, if I were retired or not accounting for my kids, and I was already skiing a ton I could see bowing out of those days.  My parents spend the winter in Florida.  They play golf 5 days/week.  They don't play Saturday cuz it's crowded (and they need a day to run errands).


I think nobody here encountered (or remembers!) the insane lines at Heavens Gate last year. The worst and longest lines ever. They will need traffic direction down there this year if we are more crowded as is being predicted here. Maybe get one of those dancing cops you see.... keep it fun for all!


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

the heavens gate lines were a result of distancing the queues in a limited amount of space that is also an intersection for lower downspout. some days the heavens gate line snaked up the hill but it was a single file line and it didn't take that long to get to the front. easing the distancing between lanes and sending up singles with doubles will make that minor issue irrelevant this year.

i also only saw that happen between like 10 and 12 on Saturdays, and that just meant it was time to go ski castlerock and bravo for a while.


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## kingslug (Sep 23, 2021)

Last year was the first time I spent several days skiing CR..when my legs where shot I just snaked around the Troll road which was almost knee deep..a  nice escape from ..well pretty small lift lines at the time..but its an escape that Stowe does not have...there is no escape at Stowe..your stuck with everyone.


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## cdskier (Sep 23, 2021)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> I think nobody here encountered (or remembers!) the insane lines at Heavens Gate last year. The worst and longest lines ever. They will need traffic direction down there this year if we are more crowded as is being predicted here. Maybe get one of those dancing cops you see.... keep it fun for all!


I skied HG plenty last year (including weekends) and really don't think they were bad at all. They were well managed and I still don't think I ever waited more than 10 minutes even though they might have looked long. But there's also only a few trails up there. If the line gets too crazy, there's plenty of other terrain on LP to ski. I don't need to take every run from HG.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> WIW, I think Waterbury gives a ton of optionality.  Skiing wise, it's pretty much equidistant from SB, MRG, and Stowe. It's about 10 minutes further to Smuggs and It's very close to Bolton.  Additionally you are 30 minutes from downtown Burlington.  On days where it's nuking snow, it might not be that great a solution.  But most days it sounds pretty good to me.



10 minutes further to Smuggs.....except from mid October to May when the Notch is closed to winter travel


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## kingslug (Sep 24, 2021)

If I can wait 10 minutes to get on a stinking subway..10 minutes for a lift is ...easy.  But that all ends in 3 months...weekday skiing will be a nice change


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## machski (Sep 26, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I had a beer with Ed Reed and Eric last year and talk about this very thing.  Sounds like they have some good ideas but nothing concrete yet?


I can see the towns/regions working together from a common marketing approach OUTSIDE of the ski resorts.  Vail and Alterra offering a combined pass?  Not ever going to happen.


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## Howitzer (Sep 26, 2021)

Is Sugarbush footing the bill for part of the VT Adaptive expansion at Mt Ellen? It looks from afar like Sugarbush will see ancillary benefits such as improved restroom facilities from this project. Should be a wonderful addition to Mt Ellen and improve access for program participants.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 26, 2021)

Howitzer said:


> Is Sugarbush footing the bill for part of the VT Adaptive expansion at Mt Ellen? It looks from afar like Sugarbush will see ancillary benefits such as improved restroom facilities from this project. Should be a wonderful addition to Mt Ellen and improve access for program participants.












						Vermont Adaptive breaks ground on $2.5M Sugarbush facility
					

Work is underway on Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports' second permanent home -- a $2.5 million adaptive sports facility that will be connected to Sugarbush’s Mt. Ellen base lodge.




					www.wcax.com
				













						Donate Now to Our Home Sweet Home - Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports
					

Make a Tax-Deductible Donation Today for Vermont Adaptive’s NEW $2.5 Million Adaptive Sports Facility at Sugarbush Your gift will be matched dollar for dollar up to $1 million. Vermont Adaptive is officially underway with the second of three phases of our Home Sweet Home Permanent Homes Campaign...




					www.vermontadaptive.org


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## cdskier (Sep 27, 2021)

Fall colors are just starting to show up around Sugarbush and the Mad River Valley...


----------



## mbedle (Sep 28, 2021)

Is that Blueberry Lake?


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Is that Blueberry Lake?


Yes


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## mikec142 (Sep 28, 2021)

Those are two fantastic pix.  DSLR or iPhone?  If phone, which one?


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Those are two fantastic pix.  DSLR or iPhone?  If phone, which one?


Thanks!

DSLR. (Nikon D7500...first pic with a Sigma 17-50 lens and 2nd pic with a Nikon wide angle 10-20 lens)


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## mikec142 (Sep 29, 2021)

Forgot to mention...my Ikon Pass came on Monday!


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2021)

Do you get a new one every year or if you had one last year, do you just use that one?


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## teleo (Sep 29, 2021)

Seems like they are sending new o es to everyone.  We got a new ones last week.  So have a number of friends. But not all yet so they are still in process.


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## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Forgot to mention...my Ikon Pass came on Monday!


Wife and I got ours on Monday as well.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 29, 2021)

new one every year, slightly different color patterns year to year

it came with fun magnets


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 29, 2021)




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## cdskier (Sep 29, 2021)

I got my new Ikon I think it was Monday too. I don't really understand why they waste time/resources to send new ones for people that are renewals and already have passes. Seems like unnecessary effort (and expense).


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## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I got my new Ikon I think it was Monday too. I don't really understand why they waste time/resources to send new ones for people that are renewals and already have passes. Seems like unnecessary effort (and expense).


And all the stupid swag with it.


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## djd66 (Sep 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> And all the stupid swag with it.


I agree,… no idea why they send out new passes when they could have just renewed the old one I have - that’s what Sugarbush did every year.  Given all the green initiatives- sending out more plastic is counterintuitive.


----------



## Blurski (Sep 30, 2021)

Killington's K Ticket deal 1 up's Sugarbushes Quad pack. $85 ea no black out, by as few or as many as you want, transfer to anyone.


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## tumbler (Sep 30, 2021)

Blurski said:


> Killington's K Ticket deal 1 up's Sugarbushes Quad pack. $85 ea no black out, by as few or as many as you want, transfer to anyone.


Perfect, send them all to K!


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 30, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Perfect, send them all to K!


LOL


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## Hawk (Sep 30, 2021)

I already get 7 days at Killington with my pass.  I think Sugarbush one upped K.  HA!
Actually I did get my new pass this week.  The Wife was holding out on important info.
I actually like that I get new passes.  I can now continue my project of adding to my pass display year by year.  I have a bunch of place holders for the years that Sugarbush reused the media.  It starts in 87 with my Sunday River passes, then ASC, then Sugarbush.  Funny to see pics when I had hair and a mustache. LOL


----------



## skiur (Sep 30, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I already get 7 days at Killington with my pass.  I think Sugarbush one upped K.  HA!
> Actually I did get my new pass this week.  The Wife was holding out on important info.
> I actually like that I get new passes.  I can now continue my project of adding to my pass display year by year.  I have a bunch of place holders for the years that Sugarbush reused the media.  It starts in 87 with my Sunday River passes, then ASC, then Sugarbush.  Funny to see pics when I had hair and a mustache. LOL



If you get the Killington 365 pass you get unlimited days at the bush as it comes with a iKon pass.


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## Hawk (Sep 30, 2021)

skiur said:


> If you get the Killington 365 pass you get unlimited days at the bush as it comes with a iKon pass.


Ahhh, read the details my man.  That pass is $1,579 and you get a base IKON pass that has blackout days.  I live at sugarbush and it is my base mountain so that would not make any sence for me.  So for $500 less I get unlimited at sugarbush, 7 days at K and other places I go, early ups and mountain biking all summer.


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## ducky (Sep 30, 2021)

Killington, lol. 

Last time I went I got knocked down by a guy in a satin Jets jacket skiing full speed into the lift line.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 30, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I agree,… no idea why they send out new passes when they could have just renewed the old one I have - that’s what Sugarbush did every year.  Given all the green initiatives- sending out more plastic is counterintuitive.


marketing?
I'm stoked and was like a kid when I saw that package in the mail.  Also got texts from like 5 friends with similar reactions.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 30, 2021)

is there any Uber or Taxi service in the valley???  I'm going to need a ride from Lareau up the access road in a few weeks.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Sep 30, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> marketing?
> I'm stoked and was like a kid when I saw that package in the mail.  Also got texts from like 5 friends with similar reactions.


Glad to hear this... guys like me make their living producing marketing materials like this package. Yes, I bet it was expensive. Wish I printed and mailed it! How many IKON Pass holders are out there? Thousands or tens of thousands? How many passes do they sell?


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2021)

i threw it all away except for the magnets and the holographic sticker. I'm a sucker for shiny shit, but in reality i know i don't want to stick an ikon logo on anything i own, so I'll prob dispose of the sticker

there's a lotto style scratch off to win stance socks or dakine backpacks, so you all should at least try your luck before throwing away the swag


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Sep 30, 2021)

At the risk of using this board for commercial reasons....
I have a 2 bed, 2 full bath apartment available for a seasonal rental at Sugarbush. Off Rt 17, 5 minutes from either SB Mt Ellen or MRG. (essentially across the street and up the hill from Mad River Barn)
Apt is the first floor of my house (with private entrance). Fully furniished. Complete kitchen, Washer/dryer. $10,000 plus utilities., Plowing included.
vermont.craigslist.org/vac/d/waitsfield-sugarbush-bed-bath-apartment/7387819785.html


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## tumbler (Oct 1, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i threw it all away except for the magnets and the holographic sticker. I'm a sucker for shiny shit, but in reality i know i don't want to stick an ikon logo on anything i own, so I'll prob dispose of the sticker
> 
> there's a lotto style scratch off to win stance socks or dakine backpacks, so you all should at least try your luck before throwing away the swag


You mean you don't have your ikon pass hanging on the outside of your jacket flapping in the wind so we can all see your are ikon?


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 1, 2021)

tumbler said:


> You mean you don't have your ikon pass hanging on the outside of your jacket flapping in the wind so we can all see your are ikon?



strapped to my helmet actually


----------



## STREETSKIER (Oct 5, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> is there any Uber or Taxi service in the valley???  I'm going to need a ride from Lareau up the access road in a few weeks.


Stark mt bikes runs a shuttle  perfect for you 10$
But you must have a  
yeti 
Super stoked for winter


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 5, 2021)

STREETSKIER said:


> Stark mt bikes runs a shuttle  perfect for you 10$
> But you must have a
> yeti
> Super stoked for winter


saw that after I posted.  would be perfect.


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## tumbler (Oct 10, 2021)

Anyone go to Community Day? Anything notable from Hammonds speech?


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## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

I posted this on the covid Thread. 

The Sugarbush yearly update was short and to the point this year. As we all here know there was not a lot planned for upgrades this year. The big news was about the new Vermont adaptive sports building and upgrades to the Mt Ellen lodge. I stopped by and this looks pretty cool. they expanded the right side of the building to incorporate the space. Highlights are new bathrooms on all three levels, en elevator for access to all floors, a new huge deck on the back and modifications and upgrades to the rest of the lodge. For the rest of the mountain: They did a bunch of maintanence, restored the gadd brook by removing the culvert and exposing the brook, bought a new groomer and excavator, bought more guns, dug out the Mt Ellen snowmaking pond for more capacity, put new snowmaking pipes on Northstar I think, maybe is was cruiser. One of those that takes all the traffic back down to Northridge chair.

Lastly they did not mention the rules this season for Covid safety. It sounded like the lodges will still be somewhat restricted as they talked about keeping the online ordering and pick up. They did not mention crowd levels in the lodge for warming and hanging out. They did not mention the lift lines. But in an off the record conversation I had with a couple of people, it sounded like they were going to ease or not enforce masks in line, get rid of the empty coral lines inbetween and the singles line might be back. So somewhat back to normal outside and maybe a little easing with the indoor policies. I think it is still a wait and see how the infection levels are come November and what the state publishes for guildlines. It sounded positive.


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## SkiTheEast (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I posted this on the covid Thread.
> 
> The Sugarbush yearly update was short and to the point this year. As we all here know there was not a lot planned for upgrades this year. The big news was about the new Vermont adaptive sports building and upgrades to the Mt Ellen lodge. I stopped by and this looks pretty cool. they expanded the right side of the building to incorporate the space. Highlights are new bathrooms on all three levels, en elevator for access to all floors, a new huge deck on the back and modifications and upgrades to the rest of the lodge. For the rest of the mountain: They did a bunch of maintanence, restored the gadd brook by removing the culvert and exposing the brook, bought a new groomer and excavator, bought more guns, dug out the Mt Ellen snowmaking pond for more capacity, put new snowmaking pipes on Northstar I think, maybe is was cruiser. One of those that takes all the traffic back down to Northridge chair.
> 
> Lastly they did not mention the rules this season for Covid safety. It sounded like the lodges will still be somewhat restricted as they talked about keeping the online ordering and pick up. They did not mention crowd levels in the lodge for warming and hanging out. They did not mention the lift lines. But in an off the record conversation I had with a couple of people, it sounded like they were going to ease or not enforce masks in line, get rid of the empty coral lines inbetween and the singles line might be back. So somewhat back to normal outside and maybe a little easing with the indoor policies. I think it is still a wait and see how the infection levels are come November and what the state publishes for guildlines. It sounded positive.


Thanks Hawk. Great color there.  I'm pretty impressed with the speed that the VT adaptive space is going up.  Though still hard to believe they'll get everything done by ski season.


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## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

Ya it will be a great space.  I didn't talk about the new Adaptive space that much.  It is going to be a great thing for so many people that are challenged by injury or born with illness. It will make things so much easier for this program and bring a lot of great experiences to people who have physical challenges.  They had a booth at the courtyard and were giving out info and collecting donations.  Hammond said they are still $350k away from thier goal.  We will donate to this great cause.  Yes lots of work to do but they still have 2 months and a lot can happen.


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## cdskier (Oct 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Ya it will be a great space.  I didn't talk about the new Adaptive space that much.  It is going to be a great thing for so many people that are challenged by injury or born with illness. It will make things so much easier for this program and bring a lot of great experiences to people who have physical challenges.  They had a booth at the courtyard and were giving out info and collecting donations.  Hammond said they are still $350k away from thier goal.  We will donate to this great cause.  Yes lots of work to do but they still have 2 months and a lot can happen.


An e-mail was sent out from Sugarbush on behalf of John Hammond today about the Vermont Adaptive space (and also mentioned the $350K they still need). I definitely think this is a fantastic cause and have been meaning to donate for a while to help them cross the finish line. I finally made my donation tonight.

And if anyone wants to donate, more information as well as the link to donate can be found here: http://www.vermontadaptive.org/sugarbushfacility/


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## mikec142 (Oct 19, 2021)

Stunned that I'm the first to mention that SB got snow yesterday!  Winter is coming!


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## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Stunned that I'm the first to mention that SB got snow yesterday!  Winter is coming!


It was mentioned in First!


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 19, 2021)

By.....me


----------



## witchway (Oct 19, 2021)

Has anyone else heard that Jerry Nooney will be in charge of food service at Solitude this year?


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 19, 2021)

who is that?


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## HowieT2 (Oct 19, 2021)

On Good Morning America this morning they had video of snow from the top of LP showing Heaven's gate.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 19, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> who is that?


he was head of F&B at sugarbush and/or chef at timbers for awhile


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 19, 2021)

cool.  Good for him I suppose this is a promotion then.


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## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> By.....me


Winner of the internet!


----------



## Hawk (Oct 19, 2021)

Yup the front was a little colder then they expected.  Dusting looks good.
I will miss Gerry.  I thought he did an excelent job.  We still use his pizza dough recipe and he turned us on to going to King Arthur to get the right flour.  As some know on here, he was a pretty avid MRV mountan biker.  we used to run into him going up enchanted forest or revolution quite often.  It word was that he was kind of retiring or moving to Florida.  I guess not.


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## Boxtop Willie (Oct 19, 2021)

Former Sugarbush VP, Amber B, is now running Solitude. Rumor has it Solitude needed serious help with F&B and she coaxed Gerry to postpone retirement and go help turn it around. He used to run a consulting company that did that kind of work.


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Winner of the internet!


any prizes?   a cookie will do.


----------



## keyser soze (Oct 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I posted this on the covid Thread.
> 
> The Sugarbush yearly update was short and to the point this year. As we all here know there was not a lot planned for upgrades this year. The big news was about the new Vermont adaptive sports building and upgrades to the Mt Ellen lodge. I stopped by and this looks pretty cool. they expanded the right side of the building to incorporate the space. Highlights are new bathrooms on all three levels, en elevator for access to all floors,


Bathrooms on all 3 levels.  Ridiculous.  Bathrooms in ski areas should be in the basement cuz it's fun climbing stairs in ski boots.  Seriously, not having to walk down flights of stairs is a good thing.


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 25, 2021)

One more perk of wearing AT boots..stairs are no problem..except if someone wearing regular boots falls on you..


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## SkiTheEast (Oct 26, 2021)

Bit off topic...and I'll caveat by saying I completely understand given the shattered finances from the pandemic but is anyone else noticing that the Alterra playbook has just brought exponential cost increases across everything?

We already talked about the astronomical cost of those single day tickets, base cabins and Brewfest tickets this year.  Just for fun I just looked in to Allyn's Lodge dinners.  In previous years - correct me if I'm wrong but - I think the Lawson's dinners up there were around 150 bucks (beer included).  This year the dinners are pricing out at $240 with no included alcohol. I know most here on the forum, myself include, won't care but just seems wild the way costs have exploded. Obviously the market will dictate whether these prices are justified but based upon how empty the base cabins were for most of last season I'm wondering if this will result in a supply/demand disequilibrium.


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## mikec142 (Oct 26, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Bit off topic...and I'll caveat by saying I completely understand given the shattered finances from the pandemic but is anyone else noticing that the Alterra playbook has just brought exponential cost increases across everything?
> 
> We already talked about the astronomical cost of those single day tickets, base cabins and Brewfest tickets this year.  Just for fun I just looked in to Allyn's Lodge dinners.  In previous years - correct me if I'm wrong but - I think the Lawson's dinners up there were around 150 bucks (beer included).  This year the dinners are pricing out at $240 with no included alcohol. I know most here on the forum, myself include, won't care but just seems wild the way costs have exploded. Obviously the market will dictate whether these prices are justified but based upon how empty the base cabins were for most of last season I'm wondering if this will result in a supply/demand disequilibrium.


The thing is we will most likely never know.  The pandemic threw a wrench in everything.  It would have been easy to compare a 2019 day ticket to 2020 day ticket to a 2021 day ticket.  Then you would have easily been able to measure the Alterra effect.  But the pandemic makes the comparison apples to oranges and harder to measure what is because of Alterra and what is because of the pandemic.  If Win were still the owner, would the price jumps have been the same?  Bottom line, we will never know. 

From my perspective, I'm pretty happy with my Ikon pass and the benefits it gets me at Sugarbush.


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## SkiTheEast (Oct 26, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> The thing is we will most likely never know.  The pandemic threw a wrench in everything.  It would have been easy to compare a 2019 day ticket to 2020 day ticket to a 2021 day ticket.  Then you would have easily been able to measure the Alterra effect.  But the pandemic makes the comparison apples to oranges and harder to measure what is because of Alterra and what is because of the pandemic.  If Win were still the owner, would the price jumps have been the same?  Bottom line, we will never know.
> 
> From my perspective, I'm pretty happy with my Ikon pass and the benefits it gets me at Sugarbush.


Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing).  Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.

Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.


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## mikec142 (Oct 26, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing).  Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.
> 
> Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.


Yeah...I get you.  My kids are 19 and 17, so no programs for them.  But man do I wish we had done the blazer program when they were young.  

I hope that both of our families can enjoy many seasons to come at an affordable cost.


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## cdskier (Oct 26, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing).  Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.
> 
> Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.



The base cabins didn't even exist until COVID. So there's no basis to compare them with anything. I thought they were ridiculously priced, but also didn't care. I've never been one to use the lodge that much at all even in a normal year. As for the dinners at Allyn's lodge...I always thought those were overpriced too (even pre-COVID). I never looked specifically at the Lawson's ones since beer dinner pairings don't appeal to me, so I'm comparing with the normal ones. I specifically remember the "normal" Allyn's lodge dinner pricing not including alcohol the last time I looked pre-COVID (although I also don't think they were $240/person last time I looked). And when it comes to dining out, I'm not exactly the type of person that cheaps out when I think the food or wine you're getting is worth it. $240 for Allyn's lodge dinner before alcohol is over my line though. I get that it is a unique experience, but that price is still over the top for me and not worth it. If they can charge those prices though and sell out...good for them. If they can't sell out, then they'll adjust accordingly (just like they did adjust the base cabin prices a bit last year after what was originally announced). I'm not too worried about the high prices for "non essential nice to haves" I guess. The skiing itself is still a ridiculous steal.


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## Smellytele (Oct 26, 2021)

Prices are going up everywhere. My buddy works for a very large food distributor (C&S) and he says their costs are up almost 20%. This will trickle down sooner rather than later.


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## rocojerry (Oct 27, 2021)

Looking forward to Sugarbush this year -- I dont think I entered VT last year.     Friday 12/17 best guess on Mt Ellen home opener?


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## ducky (Oct 27, 2021)

Ikon does not seem to be taking the Epic pricing bait. $1149 Ikon vs $819 Epic for full passes, or $849 vs $619 for the discounted, holiday blackout pass. MRG did not play the price game either and passes sold out a couple of months ago.

It's a strange year with real estate sales at dizzying heights here and practically zero season rentals. This true for local apartment rentals too and is a real problem for employers in the valley. Many former long-term rentals are now AirBnb/VRBO, aka STRs. All the restaurants are currently under-staffed with many closing midweek to give their staff a break.

Rob Katz (Vail CEO) happened to sit down next to me on a streetcar in New Orleans just after they bought Stowe for $50m. He explained the logic behind the purchase and how slashing pass prices had the effect of increasing overall revenue by 30%+/-. While reviled by the Stowe regulars, he was nice enough and engaging in person. Stowe has changed though and with just one way in and out, the traffic can be a big challenge and too much for many locals to deal with.

I think the biggest effect from the pricing will be with the Burlington-area locals and UVM students who truly have a choice where price is a concern.


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## tumbler (Oct 27, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing).  Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.
> 
> Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.


Seasonal program prices have gone up and have been shortened by a few weekends.  Ski areas barely make money anyway and coming out of Covid they need to try to do what they can.  I think the pricing is a reflection of their pass sales, more passes sold=more expensive.  Selfishly I would rather the more expensive pass and and services to keep the crowds away.  See Epic and Stowe.


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## djd66 (Oct 27, 2021)

I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a  shit show.  Service was always on the edge pre-covid.  Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home.  Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,...  it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!)  This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook.  I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.

My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.


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## ThatGuy (Oct 27, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a  shit show.  Service was always on the edge pre-covid.  Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home.  Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,...  it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!)  This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook.  I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.
> 
> My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.


The problem is the cost of living has drastically outpaced the ability to raise pay. The owners have no options since they’re already on such thin margins and the costs (food, labor, ect) continue to rise.


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## slatham (Oct 27, 2021)

Well once trend that started pre-covid but has since accelerated is the requirement for ski areas to provide housing to staff. I can see this bleeding into other business, especially restaurants. If I were to open a restaurant right now I would only look for a building that has apartments above, or could easily accommodate apartments above.


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## djd66 (Oct 27, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> The problem is the cost of living has drastically outpaced the ability to raise pay. The owners have no options since they’re already on such thin margins and the costs (food, labor, ect) continue to rise.


having unlimited unemployment benefits and a moratorium on evictions definitely did not help matters.


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 27, 2021)

Buying or building housing for employees is now..a huge cost..had they done this before everything went through the roof it would not be as bad. I doubt they can do it now regardless of how big a company they are....not impossible though..if they really want to solve the problem. Raise wages..or provide housing.


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## Hawk (Oct 27, 2021)

I paid like $800 for my pass this year.  Not bad  I think the lift lines will be long because of it.
The cost for the warmng huts last year were cut in half because no one was biting.  Still I never would have paid for that.
I have never done Allyns but friends do it all the time and then ski down with head lights.  I see them all the time from my livingroom window.  Looks like fun but I don't want to pay that kind of money.  

I don't think the costs for the programs, meals and other things come from Altera.  Sugarbush management set all the rates with very little input from the parent company.


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## ducky (Nov 1, 2021)

Vermont's unemployment rate is currently 2.9% and the job vacancy rate is 7.4%. Vermont's workforce is about 54% of the 625,000 population, the rest being retired or too young. Even Casella was advertising locally for help during last night's NFL game. Covid crisis measures taken (by the last administration) regarding unemployment benefits and evictions had little to do with these figures in Vermont. There are simply more people here demanding goods and services than the workforce can provide. Almost everyone is short staffed and on top of that there is a global supply chain problem. Covid 19 has disrupted the economy. Many new people have moved here with remote jobs and it will take time for the equilibrium to be restored.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 1, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a  shit show.  Service was always on the edge pre-covid.  Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home.  Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,...  it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!)  This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook.  I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.
> 
> My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.


With the shortage in the hospitality business, I feel the owners will adapt.  How many have you been to the airport and sat down at the restaurant?  Most of the restaurants have a iPad on each table. After you order from the iPad a runner brings over your drinks and food.  This will probably happen in all hospitality businesses.  Reducing staff increases the bottom line. We have already seen it with RFID tickets.


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## djd66 (Nov 2, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> With the shortage in the hospitality business, I feel the owners will adapt.  How many have you been to the airport and sat down at the restaurant?  Most of the restaurants have a iPad on each table. After you order from the iPad a runner brings over your drinks and food.  This will probably happen in all hospitality businesses.  Reducing staff increases the bottom line. We have already seen it with RFID tickets.


How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 2, 2021)

Robots.....


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## NYDB (Nov 2, 2021)

djd66 said:


> How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.


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## slatham (Nov 2, 2021)

Meanwhile, a new Sugarbush web site, with a very revamped conditions page.

Also, please keep me informed of any establishments implementing a self serve beer tap!


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> Meanwhile, a new Sugarbush web site, with a very revamped conditions page.
> 
> Also, please keep me informed of any establishments implementing a self serve beer tap!


Went to a brewery in Omaha that had them at your table and they had flow meters on them to charge you.


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> Meanwhile, a new Sugarbush web site, with a very revamped conditions page.


Umm...eww...that's my first impression!

Although the 2 new webcams that I see are interesting.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> Meanwhile, a new Sugarbush web site, with a very revamped conditions page.
> 
> Also, please keep me informed of any establishments implementing a self serve beer tap!



there's a place in brooklyn with a self serve tap. you give the bar your credit card, they hand you a "debit card". you swipe when you serve yourself. at the end you re-exchange cards and settle.









						Brooklyn Bars Beer Wall Offers Self-Serve Suds
					

TAGS: Randolph Beer, Williamsburg beer, Brooklyn beer, Williamsburg Brooklyn beer, Brooklyn brewery, beer ATM, self-serve beer, self serve beer, pour your own beer BROOKLYN, NY -- Williamsburg's Randolph Beer is now offering self-serve suds in what it calls the "beer…




					www.vendingtimes.com


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 2, 2021)

That could be...dangerous...


----------



## mikec142 (Nov 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Umm...eww...that's my first impression!
> 
> Although the 2 new webcams that I see are interesting.


I'll get used to the changes...

Agree that I like the two new webcams.  Hopefully they add a few more and fix what was turned off last year.


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'll get used to the changes...
> 
> Agree that I like the two new webcams.  Hopefully they add a few more and fix what was turned off last year.


I'll probably get used to the new look too, although I'm more concerned about the missing info that the old site had that the new one doesn't...

Old site - 6 different temperatures (base, mid, and summit at both LP and ME). New site - 1 (base at LP?)
Old site - 10 different snowfall totals (base/mid/summit at 24/48/72 hr intervals plus 1 summit season snowfall total). New site - 1? (Maybe this will change as we get some actual snow to include in the report...so I'll give them a little benefit of the doubt on this for now)
Substantially shorter text blurb on the conditions page (and having to click "read more" to see the full text of it)...

Also...why is "Lower Snowball Woods" the only wooded area listed on the list of trails?


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## mikec142 (Nov 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'll probably get used to the new look too, although I'm more concerned about the missing info that the old site had that the new one doesn't...
> 
> Old site - 6 different temperatures (base, mid, and summit at both LP and ME). New site - 1 (base at LP?)
> Old site - 10 different snowfall totals (base/mid/summit at 24/48/72 hr intervals plus 1 summit season snowfall total). New site - 1? (Maybe this will change as we get some actual snow to include in the report...so I'll give them a little benefit of the doubt on this for now)
> ...


I didn't explore the site that much, but all of your points are most definitely concerns that I would have too.


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## Hawk (Nov 2, 2021)

This year they will never increase the number of Bar Tenders.  Quite simply there is no one to fill the positions they have already open.  I have never had any issues at Castlerock getting service.  I get to know the bartenders and tip them heavily early on.  That way when I walk into the room during the season, I get my drink.  Even if I am not at the front of the bar.  That is how it works.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 2, 2021)

djd66 said:


> How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.


Thinking the same thing but what about a beer truck with the taps on the side.  You get the beer by scanning your ikon pass.  Shows age and gives payment.

Edit: didn't see the following post.  But I do like the idea with the ikon pass


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## tumbler (Nov 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'll probably get used to the new look too, although I'm more concerned about the missing info that the old site had that the new one doesn't...
> 
> Old site - 6 different temperatures (base, mid, and summit at both LP and ME). New site - 1 (base at LP?)
> Old site - 10 different snowfall totals (base/mid/summit at 24/48/72 hr intervals plus 1 summit season snowfall total). New site - 1? (Maybe this will change as we get some actual snow to include in the report...so I'll give them a little benefit of the doubt on this for now)
> ...


There is a button you select next to the temp to change the location, base, mid, summit.  New site seems fine, need to check out the app though as that is what I use more.  I do like the new cameras especially the one to watch the carnage on Downspout.


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

tumbler said:


> There is a button you select next to the temp to change the location, base, mid, summit.  New site seems fine, need to check out the app though as that is what I use more.  I do like the new cameras especially the one to watch the carnage on Downspout.



Ahh, either that wasn't there this morning or I missed it. I swear I tried to click on the temp just for the hell of it earlier thinking maybe it would bring up more info. Still though...extra clicks to see info that can be all displayed on one page is such poor UX design... (so we have half the number of temps we used to have...not that there should be a huge difference between ME and LP so I'm somewhat ok only having 1 set of base/mid/temps).

I see another new camera added now too that wasn't there this morning...view from Walts up towards the ME summit. That's another nice new one.

Edit...one more odd thing I just noticed...the order of the trail groupings isn't logical to the way the mountain is laid out. You have Lincoln Peak (summit trails) followed by Mt Ellen, followed by Gadd Peak trails, then North Lynx Peak trails, then Castlerock and finally Inverness. Mt Ellen and Inverness sections should both be one after the other and follow all the LP area groupings. Kind of like the info was put on the new site by someone not familiar with Sugarbush.


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## djd66 (Nov 2, 2021)

Hawk said:


> This year they will never increase the number of Bar Tenders.  Quite simply there is no one to fill the positions they have already open.  I have never had any issues at Castlerock getting service.  I get to know the bartenders and tip them heavily early on.  That way when I walk into the room during the season, I get my drink.  Even if I am not at the front of the bar.  That is how it works.


Hawk -

Trust me,... I know how the bar works - my wife might say too well.   I've been going to all the bars up there for too many years and I am a very heavy tipper.  But plenty of times, I go and there is just 1 (maybe 2) bar tenders serving drinks for 200+ thirsty people + the wait staff.  Maybe I'm too old, but I just don't have the patience to wait and try to get the bartenders attention when there are 20 others trying to do the same.  I agree, staffing is an issue this year, however, I would think the amount of money the bartender makes for 4 hours of work - they could easily find more people.  If not,... so be it.  I just can't count the amount of times I have skipped happy hour and I'm sure I am not the only one.  The Bar is one of the biggest profit centers - if they want to try and make up some revenue - that is one place they could. But what do I know?


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

I just noticed there was a blog post in the Sugarblog made last week about the "upcoming" new website (and app, webcams, etc). (For some reason I'm no longer getting the Sugarblog e-mails on my primary e-mail address and only noticed the e-mail mentioning the website upgrade when I just checked one of my other e-mail accounts).

Anyway...I thought this blurb from the blog about the website was somewhat interesting:


> One of our most frequently visited webpages, the snow report, is also getting a nice overhaul. We know that change can be hard, particularly with a webpage you check as often as many of you likely check the snow report, but we think that once you get used to it you’ll love it. The backend for our snow reporters is going to be much easier to navigate and with that comes the ability to offer you new information. There are a lot of possibilities that we’re still tweaking, but* more clarity on what part of a trail was groomed, what shift it was groomed, or whether snowmaking is happening at night or during the day* are just a few of the cool new labels we can give things.



Those are potentially good enhancements.


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 3, 2021)

Hi Sugarbush folks! New member here. Joined the forums mostly to chime in on the Sugarbush thread. I will be at Sugarbush about every other weekend this season and staying at Mt. Ellen, which is a totally new plan for me. I have only skied at SB a handful of times. In past years we skiied all over NY and VT with our club and on Epic Pass. Hoping to meet some regulars to ski groomers with at SB because my peeps are all working at the mtn and I am the only one freeskiing. Covid and Vail/Alterra destroyed our ski club day trip routine, so I guess this is how we adapt.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 3, 2021)

Last month they were looking for a snow reporter on their hiring site..guess they found him/her?


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## skiur (Nov 3, 2021)

If skiing groomers is your thing, sugarbush would be pretty low on my list.  Certainly not what they are known for.


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 3, 2021)

skiur said:


> If skiing groomers is your thing, sugarbush would be pretty low on my list.  Certainly not what they are known for.


Well my friends bought a condo up there and invited us to stay with them. My significant other has taken a job as an instructor there as well. I am along for the ride. I’ve always enjoyed myself when I’ve been there.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

skiur said:


> If skiing groomers is your thing, sugarbush would be pretty low on my list.  Certainly not what they are known for.


I was thinking the same thing. Not that someone can't have fun skiing the groomers as they do have enough of them to keep someone entertained. My brother is a primarily groomer guy and likes Sugarbush. My dad now sticks to groomers per doctor's orders and still loves SB.


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## machski (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.


They actually have this in the Delta Sky Clubs at DTW.  The smaller ones on either end of the A concourse up on the Tram levels.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2021)

machski said:


> They actually have this in the Delta Sky Clubs at DTW.  The smaller ones on either end of the A concourse up on the Tram levels.


The international clubs (Air France in Terminal E) have self service for all the booze - including the scotch.


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Not that someone can't have fun skiing the groomers as they do have enough of them to keep someone entertained. My brother is a primarily groomer guy and likes Sugarbush. My dad now sticks to groomers per doctor's orders and still loves SB.


Now that I think of it the past few times I’ve been at Sugarbush I skied trails that were not groomed and I was fine. I just stay off of Castlerock.


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## Hawk (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Hawk -
> 
> Trust me,... I know how the bar works - my wife might say too well.   I've been going to all the bars up there for too many years and I am a very heavy tipper.  But plenty of times, I go and there is just 1 (maybe 2) bar tenders serving drinks for 200+ thirsty people + the wait staff.  Maybe I'm too old, but I just don't have the patience to wait and try to get the bartenders attention when there are 20 others trying to do the same.  I agree, staffing is an issue this year, however, I would think the amount of money the bartender makes for 4 hours of work - they could easily find more people.  If not,... so be it.  I just can't count the amount of times I have skipped happy hour and I'm sure I am not the only one.  The Bar is one of the biggest profit centers - if they want to try and make up some revenue - that is one place they could. But what do I know?


I can understand the patience thing.  I have less and less as I age also.  It will be interestng to see what the landscape will be like.  They still haven't formally stated what the indoor situation will be this year.  Also with Shawn, Emily and a bunch of others now gone and Nina in charge of Castlerock and Hogans, maybe things will change.  But I doubt we will see much this year.  Not until they get the personnell thing figured out.

For the record I have never skipped apre at the castlerock excect for the peak holiday weekends or if we are doing something at Chez Henri's.  It's where all my people are.


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## Hawk (Nov 3, 2021)

They now have 6 camer's working on the web site.
 I though they were starting snowmaking this week?  I guess we will see.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

Hawk said:


> They now have 6 camer's working on the web site.
> I though they were starting snowmaking this week?  I guess we will see.


The snow report says November 3rd is their expected start for snowmaking weather permitting...so that's today. Just need the temps now I guess. Currently 27 at the summit and 35 at mid... A few degrees colder at the summit would be good to start working their way down.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The snow report says November 3rd is their expected start for snowmaking weather permitting...so that's today. Just need the temps now I guess. Currently 27 at the summit and 35 at mid... A few degrees colder at the summit would be good to start working their way down.


it depends on the wet bulb temps but they may have a marginal opportunity before saturday.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 3, 2021)

Plenty of groomers at SB..they just tend to get bumped up here and there.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2021)

They now have 9 web cams up and running!  https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/webcams 

The new website will take some getting use to, but 9 web cams is definitely progress in the right direction. I remember when just get 1 web cam up was an issue.  

Also, the cool thing about these web cams, they are recording 12 hours and you can actually slide back in time (up to 12 hours)

I would like to see the base, mid and peak temps as they had previously though,... that was very helpful in the morning when deciding how many layers to wear.


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## mikec142 (Nov 3, 2021)

Loving the new webcams.  Would like to see the CR lift cam again too.  Maybe a ME base cam as well.


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2021)

They now have 9 web cams up and running!  https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/webcams


djd66 said:


> The new website will take some getting use to, but 9 web cams is definitely progress in the right direction. I remember when just get 1 web cam up was an issue.
> 
> Also, the cool thing about these web cams, they are recording 12 hours and you can actually slide back in time (up to 12 hours)
> 
> I would like to see the base, mid and peak temps as they had previously though,... that was very helpful in the morning when deciding how many layers to wear.


You can see all three temps just need the click on the upper left(I think)


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Loving the new webcams.  Would like to see the CR lift cam again too.  Maybe a ME base cam as well.


I bet those will come back too...in the past they often didn't put up certain cam feeds until the lifts were actually open. So them not being there now is in line with what they did in the past. Plus it looks like they're constantly adding stuff a little bit at a time to the new site (although I have to say as an IT guy, this sort of is a pet peeve of mine as I would want everything ready to go first in a dev/staging/pre-prod type environment and only move to production when everything is ready).


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## Newpylong (Nov 3, 2021)

Most places don't do that anymore. With agile development the push is to get components out in smaller sprints vs massive releases. It makes a lot of sense to do this when adding features to a web site.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Most places don't do that anymore. With agile development the push is to get components out in smaller sprints vs massive releases. It makes a lot of sense to do this when adding features to a web site.


Yea...we've had a big push over the last year or so to move to agile. There are certainly a lot of benefits to it, although I also have some mixed feelings on agile methodology (not agile itself, but the way people use it). Too often people use it as an excuse to release half-finished things in my experience. Then users notice missing/broken features/functionality and complain. Wanting to get things out there faster in smaller pieces is one thing, but a sprint should be properly setup so it doesn't "appear" to be a half-finished idea/system/rollout from a user perspective and doesn't break things (or it should be properly communicated that more features are planned).


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## teleo (Nov 3, 2021)

Like the new cams.  Hope all the lift line ones are added back.

Bummer that you have to click for upper, mid, base temps when old app showed all 3 for both mountains at once.  And their blog states "You’ll find that information is much more centralized and consolidated." DOH.

Feature request please if anyone is looking here.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> They now have 9 web cams up and running!  https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/webcams
> 
> You can see all three temps just need the click on the upper left(I think)


I'm not seeing it,... I have a month to figure it out!


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I'm not seeing it,... I have a month to figure it out!


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

The new app is also available to be downloaded/installed.

There's 2 ways to get to weather info. From the main screen there's a weather "widget" that you can click on. Shows 1 temp plus forecast and snow info. You can also click "Info" on the bottom menu and then click "Temperatures" from there which essentially just brings you to the conditions page on the SB website (where you can get to the base/mid/summit temps via additional clicks...which again is just silly and pointless).

Webcams can also be accessed via the app 2 different ways. On the main screen there's a "View our Webcams" widget which opens up a lovely page that says "Webcams" at the top and is completely blank. The 2nd way is to again go to "Info" on the bottom menu and click "Webcams" from there which opens the Webcams page from their website and seems to work fine to see all the cams.

Trail status from the main screen of the app again is another "Did anyone familiar with Sugarbush actually test this out" example... It is one giant list of every single trail (and the status of it) in alphabetical order. No separation of LP vs ME trails even...

To access the "Live map and tracking" you have to sign in...which I'm not about to do. The "Map" menu option at the bottom of the app might be ok if you want to find where different services are located in the base area...but it seems useless as an actual trail map.

Hopefully they get this refined and release an updated version...


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 3, 2021)

Saw the new app is out as well.  Name of the app comes up as SugarBush (d'oh!). First impressions are that the map feature is cool to point out all the various services/restaurants, etc for people that have never been.  One thing that would be cool to integrate would be the
ski shuttle up along the access road and the condo routes.  I see they marked the stops for the Lincoln Peak base and Mt. Ellen base.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The new app is also available to be downloaded/installed.
> 
> There's 2 ways to get to weather info. From the main screen there's a weather "widget" that you can click on. Shows 1 temp plus forecast and snow info. You can also click "Info" on the bottom menu and then click "Temperatures" from there which essentially just brings you to the conditions page on the SB website (where you can get to the base/mid/summit temps via additional clicks...which again is just silly and pointless).
> 
> ...


Good call, literally just downloaded so hadn't put it thru the paces yet but good observations.  Can't really see myself using the map in it's current form.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The new app is also available to be downloaded/installed.
> 
> There's 2 ways to get to weather info. From the main screen there's a weather "widget" that you can click on. Shows 1 temp plus forecast and snow info. You can also click "Info" on the bottom menu and then click "Temperatures" from there which essentially just brings you to the conditions page on the SB website (where you can get to the base/mid/summit temps via additional clicks...which again is just silly and pointless).
> 
> ...


CD - you should be given a free pass for your QC consulting!  Seems strange that it was not given a basic QC before going live,… maybe they were counting on us to do the QC for them!


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> View attachment 52083


Got it,… thanks. ( that is a little clunky and not sure most would even know it’s there


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Got it,… thanks. ( that is a little clunky and not sure most would even know it’s there


I just started clicking on shit.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> CD - you should be given a free pass for your QC consulting!  Seems strange that it was not given a basic QC before going live,… maybe they were counting on us to do the QC for them!


LOL. I'd gladly take a free pass in exchange for beta testing and providing this feedback. But yes, I don't understand some of this seemingly basic stuff being overlooked. Honestly it isn't like we needed the new app released 3 weeks before the mountain even opens for the season. I get that the old app essentially stopped working when they released the new website due to the way it pulled data, but we could have gone without an app for a couple more weeks if that is what it took to iron out the bugs and tweak it. Again, I have issues with releasing something that is only going to frustrate people when they try to use it because it isn't truly finished. (Or if someone did actually sign off on this version thinking it was "final" and truly good to go, then that's even worse).

Edit...there is another option I just thought of too. This may be a "standard" app Alterra has that they use across multiple resorts and some of these things may not be overly customizable for each individual resort app if the core platform is the same. I've never seen/used apps from other Alterra resorts before, so this is just a random guess as to another explanation for some of the things that seem "odd" to us.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Got it,… thanks. ( that is a little clunky and not sure most would even know it’s there


Yea...I totally missed that too until someone else pointed it out. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but something that was visible in 1 click on the old site/app shouldn't take 4-5 clicks to get the same info on the new one.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> This may be a "standard" app Alterra has that they use across multiple resorts and some of these things may not be overly customizable for each individual resort app if the core platform is the same.


Bingo. The publisher is "Ikon Pass" and a quick peruse through the app store shows the Deer Valley app with the same exact layout and publisher.


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## cdskier (Nov 4, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Bingo. The publisher is "Ikon Pass" and a quick peruse through the app store shows the Deer Valley app with the same exact layout and publisher.


I just tried the Deer Valley app but it was pretty useless to use to compare skiing related info as it seems to be in summer mode. I couldn't find apps for a bunch of their other resorts (or some were apps clearly done by other developers where maybe they haven't moved the apps for those resorts over to the "Alterra" platform app so I didn't want to waste time looking at them). I did finally find the app for Mammoth which is clearly the same platform as the SB app. Definitely the same "quirks" that the new SB app has as well. It makes no sense for the Alterra web platform to be capable of grouping trails by mountain area on the conditions report page but for the app to only show all trails in 1 big list. Logically they should both be pulling from the same database. If the website is capable of grouping trails into sections, that means the data is in the database. Someone just needs to actually update the app to utilize that data.

Now I just went really nerdy and did some looking at the feed data that is being pulled to populate the conditions page on the website. There's a lot of data coming across that they're not using/displaying on the website (yet). For example all the snowfall data I want to see is being passed across as fields in the feed... So at the very least this is something that they're capable of tracking and potentially adding to the website without any major changes on the backend needing to happen.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 4, 2021)

apps shmapps.  are they making snow?


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## cdskier (Nov 4, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> apps shmapps.  are they making snow?


Yes! I saw snow blowing on Downspout from the new Allyn's lodge webcam this morning!


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## HowieT2 (Nov 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes! I saw snow blowing on Downspout from the new Allyn's lodge webcam this morning!
> 
> View attachment 52133


Nice!  Thanks.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes! I saw snow blowing on Downspout from the new Allyn's lodge webcam this morning!
> 
> View attachment 52133


It’ll be interesting to see how the lower downspout bottleneck plays out this year. On opening weekend last year everyone who went right off of Bravo had no choice but to take Heaven’s Gate since lower downspout was closed. The lines at HG were some of the longest I’ve seen at that lift.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> It’ll be interesting to see how the lower downspout bottleneck plays out this year. On opening weekend last year everyone who went right off of Bravo had no choice but to take Heaven’s Gate since lower downspout was closed. The lines at HG were some of the longest I’ve seen at that lift.


I don’t miss the Deathspout.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2021)

The new app sucks.  What do I need to sign in for?  All I need is temps and webcams and neither of them work or take 6 clicks to get to.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The new app sucks.  What do I need to sign in for?  All I need is temps and webcams and neither of them work or take 6 clicks to get to.



Glad I'm not the only one with those complaints!


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## skiur (Nov 8, 2021)

Still better than Killingtons website, you guys should consider yourselves lucky!


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 8, 2021)

i was gonna do rut-vegas motel for friday nov 19 to ski sugarbush saturday. but i just got an airbnb in waitsfield for sat 20 and will ski sat and sunday. prob cancel the Friday hotel and just late night drive it to waitsfield. i don't even care if it will be 2 trails. i am getting so excited to ski again.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 8, 2021)

Packing the house up..pretty much sold..or I would be heading up there. I need to ski!


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## bumpsAndTrees (Nov 9, 2021)

I hope they will add webcams that show the bases of the lifts. Otherwise, the webcams are fairly useless. The main reason for looking at webcams is to see what the lift lines look like.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2021)

They were there on day one but have been removed.  I would guess they will add them back once lifts open.  I disagree that they are useless.  I look at them for other reason also.


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## bumpsAndTrees (Nov 9, 2021)

If they show lift lines, I'll look at the webcams many times throughout the day, even when it's bitter cold. Otherwise, I would only use the webcams in April, in order to gauge whether the sun has softened snow. When I'm not at the mountain,  I'll occasionally look at the snow stakes to see how much snow fell.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2021)

I look at them to see the weather, the snow stake or if the lifts are spinning.  I know the crowd patterns at sugarbush and what lines to avoid at what time.  Other than that, I just go and deal with it.  The lines are not that bad at Sugarbush anyway. For me,  I hate skiing with my phone anyway.  I am not the type of person that takes my phone out that much.  But I can understand your point.  Some people like to look at it all the time.  I bet they will have the cameras up when the season starts.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 9, 2021)

I used MRG's webcams whenever it was snowing on one of my computers..made a great moving picture when I was stuck in the office..


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## bumpsAndTrees (Nov 9, 2021)

Perhaps it's worth listing the use cases for web cams: Here are the cases I can think of:
1) Deciding which lift to take -- taking into account the length of the line
2) Determining what trail conditions are: whether the snow has warmed up and softened, whether there's enough snow coverage, or whether a trail is crowded
3) Determining how much snow fell, to decide whether to go skiing at all, or which mountain to go to.
4) Determining whether the outdoor  apres ski scene is happening
5) Inspiration -- providing something nice to look at while at work

Use case 1 needs a webcam that points at the base of the lift.
Use case 2 wants a picture of the trail.
Use case 3 wants a picture of the snow take
Use case 4 wants a picture of the plaza outside Castlerock pub
Use case 5 wants a vista or trail picture

I assume there are other use cases. Hopefully, the webcams will serve all use cases. For me, use case 1 is the most important.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2021)

I think you need to just go ski.  LOL  That is way too much information.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 9, 2021)

Speaking of apres - did anyone else catch in John Bleh's wrap that they expanded the Wunderbar downstairs and added a new bar?


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## djd66 (Nov 9, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Speaking of apres - did anyone else catch in John Bleh's wrap that they expanded the Wunderbar downstairs and added a new bar?


Link?


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 9, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Link?











						New Website, New App, More Webcams! - SugarBlog
					

We're launching a new website, a new mobile app, and adding new webcams alongside bringing back some old favorites.




					blog.sugarbush.com
				




"When you think about capital improvements and upgrades heading into the winter season, it’s probably fair to say you usually think about something tangible. A new base lodge (like the new VT Adaptive addition over at Mt. Ellen), new equipment (like the new groomer and excavator we purchased), or even a new bar (like how we expanded the Wunderbar onto the Valley House Cafeteria floor with a brand new bar and seating)."


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## Hawk (Nov 10, 2021)

Yes, I forgat to mention that in my post about the community day meeting.  They did mention the new Wunderbar extension into the old location that was used as the ski school lunch room.  When I first skied Sugarbush back around 1983, that same location was the Wunderbar.  I guess things come full circle.


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## tumbler (Nov 10, 2021)

Down by the bathrooms?  I read it that is was the cafeteria space that the Wunderbar used last year which made me wonder if the VH cafeteria was not going to be open this year and used as the Wunderbar kitchen again this year.  I wonder who is going to be running the WB operation this year?


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2021)

the new season of big mouth (netflix cartoon for adults from nick kroll and john mulaney) has an episode where they go skiing. the show is about kids going thru puberty, and adolescent raging hormones, and dick jokes, so i initially took sugarbush as the name of the ski area to be a dick joke type coincidence. however, a plot point then involves the main character working up the balls to ski organgrinder, and another joke later in the episode mentions how this place is bullshit and there are real mountains out west. I'm assuming a writer, possibly kroll himself (who is a rich kid from rye ny), had family trips to sugarbush as a youth


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the new season of big mouth (netflix cartoon for adults from nick kroll and john mulaney) has an episode where they go skiing. the show is about kids going thru puberty, and adolescent raging hormones, and dick jokes, so i initially took sugarbush as the name of the ski area to be a dick joke type coincidence. however, a plot point then involves the main character working up the balls to ski organgrinder, and another joke later in the episode mentions how this place is bullshit and there are real mountains out west. I'm assuming a writer, possibly kroll himself (who is a rich kid from rye ny), had family trips to sugarbush as a youth


that show is funny if highly highly inappropriate for those easily offended.  and that's correct about Nick Kroll.  went to same high school years earlier as my kids.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2021)

i'm actually seeing kroll do stand up this Friday as part of the NY Comedy Festival. it's at carnegie hall, which I've managed to never visit despite my 36 years as a new yorker. practice practice practice.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm actually seeing kroll do stand up this Friday as part of the NY Comedy Festival. it's at carnegie hall, which I've managed to never visit despite my 36 years as a new yorker. practice practice practice.


He's funny as is the rest of that crew.  do u listen to how did this get made?


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2021)

i dont but i am aware of it and i really should, especially with long drive season approaching. love jason mantzoukas and paul scheer. and in my opinion paul scheer punches way above his weight class with june diane - she's very pretty and very funny. saw john mulaney twice in the past few months and his new hour is fantastic. i am sure it will eventually be a netflix special.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont but i am aware of it and i really should, especially with long drive season approaching. love jason mantzoukas and paul scheer. and in my opinion paul scheer punches way above his weight class with june diane - she's very pretty and very funny. saw john mulaney twice in the past few months and his new hour is fantastic. i am sure it will eventually be a netflix special.


its perfect for the car ride.  We saw Mulaney live before his troubles, great show.


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## cdskier (Nov 10, 2021)

The Firing of Skiing Legend John Egan Leaves Many Die-Hard Downhillers Soured on Sugarbush
					

In the last four decades, extreme skier John Egan earned international acclaim for descending some of the world's gnarliest peaks, many of which had never...




					www.sevendaysvt.com


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 10, 2021)

What’s the best aprés ski spot at sugarbush?


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## cdskier (Nov 10, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> What’s the best aprés ski spot at sugarbush?



What kind of vibe are you looking for? Are you looking for something on-mountain at the end of the ski day? Or something off-mountain in the evening?


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> What kind of vibe are you looking for? Are you looking for something on-mountain at the end of the ski day? Or something off-mountain in the evening?


We’re going to be up there quite a bit this season so I think we would try several different places. Starting with on Mountain at the end of the ski day…


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2021)

Sugarbush is kind of sleepy compared to killington and Stowe. There’s two bars at the base area basically, one in the old lodge by the valley house chair, and the castlerock pub in the main lodge. Castlerock is the only apres scene I really know of. There may be something at the bar at rumbles, the higher end restaurant at the base.


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## cdskier (Nov 10, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> We’re going to be up there quite a bit this season so I think we would try several different places. Starting with on Mountain at the end of the ski day…



At Lincoln Peak, Castlerock pub is the main spot for apres. Wunderbar is another option that had a loyal following in the past. Not sure what the vibe at Wunderbar is going to be like this year though. They've made some changes there (a combination of what was mentioned above in this thread a few posts back along with some people's favorite bartenders at Wunderbar leaving last year).

Off mountain we'll have to see what happens this year with which places open. A few off the top of my head that could be options would be Lawson's, Mad River Barn, and Hyde Away, There's a new wine bar that is just opening in the valley called Alpino Vino. I'm curious to check that one out myself...

I'm sure there are other regulars in this thread that can chime in with more details/options. I'm personally a big fan of just going back to my condo and relaxing there before going out to dinner in the valley.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 11, 2021)

Castlerock is good if you get there a bit early..then it gets totally jammed up. I prefer to head back to the condo after 1 beer...its a good 1 beer though..


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## Hawk (Nov 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> At Lincoln Peak, Castlerock pub is the main spot for apres. Wunderbar is another option that had a loyal following in the past. Not sure what the vibe at Wunderbar is going to be like this year though. They've made some changes there (a combination of what was mentioned above in this thread a few posts back along with some people's favorite bartenders at Wunderbar leaving last year).
> 
> Off mountain we'll have to see what happens this year with which places open. A few off the top of my head that could be options would be Lawson's, Mad River Barn, and Hyde Away, There's a new wine bar that is just opening in the valley called Alpino Vino. I'm curious to check that one out myself...
> 
> I'm sure there are other regulars in this thread that can chime in with more details/options. I'm personally a big fan of just going back to my condo and relaxing there before going out to dinner in the valley.


I will add Chez Henry for a quiet glass of wine or cocktail( more of an older crowd and long time locals) and Reks if Dino gets his act together with covid and all.  Both are on mountain in the village next to Rice brook and Gadd brook.
Not sure if the Slidebrook pub will reopen any time but that was also a cool low key place.

I am a Castlerock pub person or just buy a beer and hang out on the plaza.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The Firing of Skiing Legend John Egan Leaves Many Die-Hard Downhillers Soured on Sugarbush
> 
> 
> In the last four decades, extreme skier John Egan earned international acclaim for descending some of the world's gnarliest peaks, many of which had never...
> ...


I truely miss seeing John around.  He is and will always be a great inspration for me.  Always approchable and always freindly to all.  It didn't matter if I saw him on the mountian bike trails, on the mountain skiing or in town.  He always would stop and talk and have some kind of possitive thing to say.  I true Ikon in the ski industry and Sugarbush's only real ski celeberty.   I understand the circumstances around his departure but I just wish they could have worked things out.  I large number of people that I ski with are realy pissed off and the community as a whole is not better for it.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I truely miss seeing John around.  He is and will always be a great inspration for me.  Always approchable and always freindly to all.  It didn't matter if I saw him on the mountian bike trails, on the mountain skiing or in town.  He always would stop and talk and have some kind of possitive thing to say.  I true Ikon in the ski industry and Sugarbush's only real ski celeberty.   I understand the circumstances around his departure but I just wish they could have worked things out.  I large number of people that I ski with are realy pissed off and the community as a whole is not better for it.


It definitely wasn’t done the right way. Even if it didn’t make financial sense to have him in the position he was they could have tried to work something out or part on better terms.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 11, 2021)

Funny story about John. Standing in line at the airport waiting to go ski in chille I see a guy with a vermont t shirt...beard, hat. Blabbed with him for a while, hes going to Portillo to ski. No idea who he is..but he looked familiar.
I go to a Warren Miller movie event..and there he is on stage...ah..now I recognize him. 
He was wronged...thats all.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I will add Chez Henry for a quiet glass of wine or cocktail( more of an older crowd and long time locals) and Reks if Dino gets his act together with covid and all.  Both are on mountain in the village next to Rice brook and Gadd brook.
> Not sure if the Slidebrook pub will reopen any time but that was also a cool low key place.
> 
> I am a Castlerock pub person or just buy a beer and hang out on the plaza.


Wondering if anyone heard anything definitive on Chez Henri.  I heard a rumor that they might not open this season.  Henri is obv like 94 years old and they've had such a fantastic almost 60 year run. No one would blame them for hanging it up (especially given challenges with food costs and labor mkt) but it would be a really shame if they were gone. Hopefully not true.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 11, 2021)

maybe they want it that way, but i have found henri and the sugarbush village shops to be extremely hidden and underpromoted to the general visitor base. i didn't even realize there was anything over there until i decided to explore going straight past the turn off for the parking lot one day last season, and I've been a pretty regular sugarbush skier for like 10 years


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## teleo (Nov 11, 2021)

Chez henri opened last year with limited hours due to not being able to find help.  Doubt that has gotten any better.  Hope they and Rex are open this year.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> maybe they want it that way, but i have found henri and the sugarbush village shops to be extremely hidden and underpromoted to the general visitor base. i didn't even realize there was anything over there until i decided to explore going straight past the turn off for the parking lot one day last season, and I've been a pretty regular sugarbush skier for like 10 years


That’s what happens when the resort doesn’t own the real estate.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 12, 2021)

Went there my first time at SB..I was like..a french restaurant in the middle of a VT ski hill...very cool. And the food was great.


----------



## crank (Nov 12, 2021)

Chez Henri has been there for a long time and I think they get plenty of biz without having to promote it.

We stayed in those condos last year and ate there one evening.  Great ambience.  Henri was very gracious.  Our food was undercooked.  Normally I would have sent it back, but we just ate what we could.  We are staying in teh same condos for NYE and may see of we can get a reservation there.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 12, 2021)

do we think they will make 11/20 opening? looking iffy. i know it will just be a shitshow on jester and upper organgrinder, but I'm really looking forward to it. and i wont have another chance til the weekend of 12/17 bc of moving apartments and my sister's wedding, so i really need these 2 early days next weekend.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 12, 2021)

I'm hoping they do open..I could use it.


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## NYSnowflake (Nov 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> do we think they will make 11/20 opening? looking iffy. i know it will just be a shitshow on jester and upper organgrinder, but I'm really looking forward to it. and i wont have another chance til the weekend of 12/17 bc of moving apartments and my sister's wedding, so i really need these 2 early days next weekend.


I spoke to friends at Mount Ellen yesterday. They said there is no snow on the mountain yet. Not looking good for skiing on Thanksgiving. I know some places online are saying they expect to open before Thanksgiving but word around the ski school is that they’re planning to open after Thanksgiving.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 12, 2021)

no snow on the mountain doesnt matter. their intended opening is 11/20, not thanksgiving. they need a solid cold snap to blow snow on the limited terrain for opening. they could do it with 0 natural snow. they just need temps, and its marginal.


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2021)

Saturday night they may get a little natural 1-3.
K 2-4


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## slatham (Nov 12, 2021)

No snow on Mt Ellen, yes. I highly doubt the snow they made on OG and Jester is gone. Heck even the dusting Stratton made is still showing, and Sugarbush pounded. They did not however hit Downspout. This week's window looks like late Saturday evening up high through Wednesday, IMHO they can't get enough snow down to open anything other than Jester, DS and OG. That would require downloading. I do not know if they would consider that.


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## tumbler (Nov 12, 2021)

They normally open with downloading Bravo except the past couple years when they got a cold snap to open snowball Spring Fling.


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## djd66 (Nov 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> do we think they will make 11/20 opening? looking iffy. i know it will just be a shitshow on jester and upper organgrinder, but I'm really looking forward to it. and i wont have another chance til the weekend of 12/17 bc of moving apartments and my sister's wedding, so i really need these 2 early days next weekend.


no way


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## STREETSKIER (Nov 12, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> What’s the best aprés ski spot at sugarbus


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## djd66 (Nov 12, 2021)

I know other may feel differently, but I would prefer they don't blow the snow making budget just to get a couple of early trails open,... only to watch them melt away a week later.  I'd prefer they wait until there is sustainable cold weather and then just blast away!  Then, any of that snow making budget that they save now, use that for multiple refreshes after the inevitable melt down(s) we get throughout the meat of the season - including after February vacation which is typically when they completely shut down snowmaking.


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## tumbler (Nov 12, 2021)

They don't do refreshes anymore, it's park on trail for a week, put down a bunch of slop then strip it and move on.  They gamble that after the ra*n events that the backside will turn to snow and bond to the wet snowpack.


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## ss20 (Nov 12, 2021)

Sb needs all the help they can get with time.  They open trails so slowly.  Being two weeks behind where they want to be with making snow is a bad start.


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## slatham (Nov 12, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I know other may feel differently, but I would prefer they don't blow the snow making budget just to get a couple of early trails open,... only to watch them melt away a week later.  I'd prefer they wait until there is sustainable cold weather and then just blast away!  Then, any of that snow making budget that they save now, use that for multiple refreshes after the inevitable melt down(s) we get throughout the meat of the season - including after February vacation which is typically when they completely shut down snowmaking.


I disagree. Its past mid-November, and while this cold snap is only fair, the following warm up looks to be minor and only 36 hours. Then it's cold again. I'd agree if this cold snap was followed by a furnace blast but right now given calendar and forecast it is go time. And go hard.


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## djd66 (Nov 12, 2021)

Just like the Orange Cones set up on the Mass Pike in April,... you can always count on Arm Chair Quarterbacking of what is the best for snowmaking approach in November!  I actually enjoy reading all the opinions until it gets old!  Have at it!


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## teleo (Nov 12, 2021)

Sugarbush and Mad River Glen ready for winter and return of out-of-state visitors
					

Sugarbush and Mad River Glen ski areas prepare for winter.




					www.valleyreporter.com


----------



## cdskier (Nov 12, 2021)

slatham said:


> No snow on Mt Ellen, yes. I highly doubt the snow they made on OG and Jester is gone. Heck even the dusting Stratton made is still showing, and Sugarbush pounded. They did not however hit Downspout. This week's window looks like late Saturday evening up high through Wednesday, IMHO they can't get enough snow down to open anything other than Jester, DS and OG. That would require downloading. I do not know if they would consider that.


I agree they may have to do only Jester, DS, and OG to hit their target date. And they've certainly done that in the past with downloading on bravo (last year they could have done that but chose not to open until they could get lower terrain open to spread people out more due to COVID...this year that really isn't really relevant), so I'd say it is something they would definitely consider.

As for snowmaking last week, anything below Allyn's lodge that they made was minimal due to the marginal temps at that elevation. Even what was made on DS just below Allyn's where they did try has melted a lot. I'm sure production higher up was much better though and is holding on more.


----------



## villager (Nov 13, 2021)

teleo said:


> Sugarbush and Mad River Glen ready for winter and return of out-of-state visitors
> 
> 
> Sugarbush and Mad River Glen ski areas prepare for winter.
> ...


Interesting article in the Valley Reporter. I wonder what lifts they're considering adding or replacing?

     “Does that mean new lifts?” Friedman asked.

     “Absolutely, but we’re not ready to announce those details right now. We do have master development plans for other projects including an employee village,” he (Hammond) explained.


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## Powder Whore (Nov 13, 2021)

villager said:


> Interesting article in the Valley Reporter. I wonder what lifts they're considering adding or replacing?
> 
> “Does that mean new lifts?” Friedman asked.
> 
> “Absolutely, but we’re not ready to announce those details right now. We do have master development plans for other projects including an employee village,” he (Hammond) explained.


Does this elude to replacing existing lifts or terrain expansions?  I fear it's the latter.
 #SAVEtheSTASHES


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## machski (Nov 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Does this elude to replacing existing lifts or terrain expansions?  I fear it's the latter.
> #SAVEtheSTASHES


Seriously, do you understand VT laws specifically ACT250?  They MAY WANT expansion, but that is a long way from here to there.  Especially when you are completely in the GMNF.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2021)

machski said:


> Seriously, do you understand VT laws specifically ACT250?  They MAY WANT expansion, but that is a long way from here to there.  Especially when you are completely in the GMNF.


I largely agree that expansion is a long way off (and it isn't even clear if the reference to new lifts was as replacements for existing ones or something entirely new), however Sugarbush is not "completely in the GMNF". Lincoln Peak is mostly USFS land, however Mt Ellen is mostly privately owned with the exception of a bit near the summit plus there's an easement for the long trail along the entire ridgeline along the privately owned part of the property.


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## Powder Whore (Nov 14, 2021)

machski said:


> Seriously, do you understand VT laws specifically ACT250?  They MAY WANT expansion, but that is a long way from here to there.  Especially when you are completely in the GMNF.


Seriously, you don't have to yell. I got feelings also. I have seen an expansion plan for ME & and it totally blows up spots that I ski 3-4 days a week.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 14, 2021)

Powder Whore said:


> Seriously, you don't have to yell. I got feelings also. I have seen an expansion plan for ME & and it totally blows up spots that I ski 3-4 days a week.


Yeah, it's no secret Hammond has discussed potential for new trail pod above Inverness pretty recently. As noted above though, shouldn't jump to conclusion on new vs expansion. I'd assume they'd have to start putting plans to together for eventual replacement of some of the lifts. The vast majority are approaching 30 years old...would expect to see a little of both. 

I've posted this before but heres the 2008 Vegetation Management Plan which shows a few potential expansion spots from 10+ years ago:



			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://skimap.org/data/205/3535/1590556476.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjggPaDq5n0AhUic98KHdfRBPUQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0p2FmeMe-a4_wqrQGGeJEY


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Yeah, it's no secret Hammond has discussed potential for new trail pod above Inverness pretty recently. As noted above though, shouldn't jump to conclusion on new vs expansion. I'd assume they'd have to start putting plans to together for eventual replacement of some of the lifts. The vast majority are approaching 30 years old...would expect to see a little of both.
> 
> I've posted this before but heres the 2008 Vegetation Management Plan which shows a few potential expansion spots from 10+ years ago:
> 
> ...



I almost posted a screenshot of the page from that document showing the boundaries of USFS vs private land in my earlier post. I do think the pod above Inverness probably makes more sense than most other locations if they were to follow through with any terrain expansions. With the snow-making limitations, you need something higher elevation.

On a snow-making note, that project that was previously discussed to build a holding pond by the Sugarbush Inn so they can increase capacity at LP really needs to be one of the first priorities in my opinion for any CapEx projects. You really need to be able to take full advantage of smaller cold snaps early in the season to get terrain ready and open.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 15, 2021)

Stowe yesterday


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I almost posted a screenshot of the page from that document showing the boundaries of USFS vs private land in my earlier post. I do think the pod above Inverness probably makes more sense than most other locations if they were to follow through with any terrain expansions. With the snow-making limitations, you need something higher elevation.
> 
> On a snow-making note, that project that was previously discussed to build a holding pond by the Sugarbush Inn so they can increase capacity at LP really needs to be one of the first priorities in my opinion for any CapEx projects. You really need to be able to take full advantage of smaller cold snaps early in the season to get terrain ready and open.


Like said above, Win and now John Hammond have said that the new focus is climate based and they understand the need for inproved water capacity and snow making ability.  The new pond and better piping and pumps will be the first focus.  Then they will be looking at lifts and lift maintenence.  The new terrain is pretty far off although the pod above inverness is something that has been on the radar for years.   I would bet that is the first place they are going.   I think your"stashes" are safe.  LOL 

The other thing that I heard is somthing of insterest to Altera is the new hotel / conference center that can be used for both seasons.  This will be located in the space between the Village quad and the school house.   It gives them a new venue for wedding overflow, conferences of all sizes and ski and stay options for short term stays for smaller groups that do not want a condo or Claybrook's amenities.


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I agree they may have to do only Jester, DS, and OG to hit their target date. And they've certainly done that in the past with downloading on bravo (last year they could have done that but chose not to open until they could get lower terrain open to spread people out more due to COVID...this year that really isn't really relevant), so I'd say it is something they would definitely consider.
> 
> As for snowmaking last week, anything below Allyn's lodge that they made was minimal due to the marginal temps at that elevation. Even what was made on DS just below Allyn's where they did try has melted a lot. I'm sure production higher up was much better though and is holding on more.


I ski early and late pretty much every year and I will always advocate for early snowmaking.  The snow making budget is always the same and they always start at the same time.  This has never changed in the last 20 years or so.   I actually really like the early season becuse it is always the same people, we have the mountain to ourselves and it is always really fun no mater the conditions.  Actually the skiing is usually pretty good with either fresh snow or soft snow when it warms up.  It is what it is and I just hope to be on snow soon.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2021)

6” on the stake, more to come this afternoon, warm up with rain weds but back end gets snowy, then cold temps into and thru the weekend. we skiing Saturday?


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> 6” on the stake, more to come this afternoon, warm up with rain weds but back end gets snowy, then cold temps into and thru the weekend. we skiing Saturday?


I hope so as I don't want to go to Killington this weekend. I will be there Saturday if they are open.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 15, 2021)

Think I'll be up at Stowe the 27th if all my packing is done for the house...or..maybe if it all isn't totally done...


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> 6” on the stake, more to come this afternoon, warm up with rain weds but back end gets snowy, then cold temps into and thru the weekend. we skiing Saturday?


It is going to come down to how cold it gets and whether they can get enough production on Downspout. Right now there's nothing (other than whatever little natural fell) at the base of the HG chair. Can't tell how much more to go there is on Jester either, but I'd assume they've made decent progress there so far and Downspout with the lower elevation is going to be the limiting factor.


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## djd66 (Nov 15, 2021)

I just figured out a webcam hack,... it looks like all of the webcams are being hosted on youtube.  There are actually 10 of them that I found.  If you use this link, you can view all of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAOLnxrstEVaTZeWu_jIZWQ   Its better than going on the website, as they are not showing all the cams.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I just figured out a webcam hack,... it looks like all of the webcams are being hosted on youtube.  There are actually 10 of them that I found.  If you use this link, you can view all of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAOLnxrstEVaTZeWu_jIZWQ   Its better than going on the website, as they are not showing all the cams.


Yup...that's how I knew how much (or rather how little) snow there was so far at the base of the HG chair.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 15, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I just figured out a webcam hack,... it looks like all of the webcams are being hosted on youtube.  There are actually 10 of them that I found.  If you use this link, you can view all of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAOLnxrstEVaTZeWu_jIZWQ   Its better than going on the website, as they are not showing all the cams.


nice work.


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## slatham (Nov 15, 2021)

Thanks for the link! Looks pretty up there. Surprised all cams aren't on SB web site?

They will have solid snowmaking temps tonight and Tuesday night all elevations, tomorrow during the day certainly from base of HG on up. It then gets cold again Thursday night and Friday at least up high, and Friday night all elevations. I would have to think, assuming decent base made already on upper OG and Jester, and willingness to download, they could make Saturday.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2021)

slatham said:


> Thanks for the link! Looks pretty up there. Surprised all cams aren't on SB web site?


Some of them were there and then they took them off. I think they're basically going with the way they did things in the past for the lift cams...only showing on the site itself when the lift opens for the season.

(FWIW...even last year all the webcams were technically available and broadcasting on the Internet even though they weren't on the SB website itself...you just had to know the direct links to the streams, which if you grabbed 1 stream url from the website itself, you could guess the others since they were simply sequentially numbered)


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

djd66 said:


> I just figured out a webcam hack,... it looks like all of the webcams are being hosted on youtube.  There are actually 10 of them that I found.  If you use this link, you can view all of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAOLnxrstEVaTZeWu_jIZWQ   Its better than going on the website, as they are not showing all the cams.


There are 11 on their app including lifts


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2021)

snowing pretty decently now. we've hit the time of year where my extra laptop runs webcams all day. snow stake tv is live and on the air.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2021)

7" line is now covered. still snowing. lets go!


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## slatham (Nov 15, 2021)

From conditions report:

Snowmaking is now underway, weather permitting, with snowmakers first focusing on Jester, Allyn's Traverse, Downspout, and Organgrinder. Opening Day is tentatively scheduled for November 20th, though we will make an announcement later this if we need to postpone. Mother Nature has been doing her part, with 6" of new snow in the last 24 hours.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2021)

coming down nice.  8" line now covered.

also a pretty stoke-y Instagram post with a drone shot from today as well as the stake with 8" on it and a message to tune up your gear. digging it.

stake cleared with just under 9"


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2021)

active guns visible on webcam on downspout just below allyn's


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> active guns visible on webcam on downspout just below allyn's


They're blowing down DS to the base of the HG chair currently. Temps are still pretty marginal at the moment below Allyn's though...


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They're blowing down DS to the base of the HG chair currently. Temps are still pretty marginal at the moment below Allyn's though...



nice. heavens gate cam shows a gun 'below' HG blowing, but this may just be building a base in the load area, not on downspout run out


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## Hawk (Nov 16, 2021)

When I looked today there was a guy trying to de-ice the chairs.  Also last week there were the barrels around the lift they use to load test the lift.  All good signs.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2021)

Hawk said:


> When I looked today there was a guy trying to de-ice the chairs.  Also last week there were the barrels around the lift they use to load test the lift.  All good signs.



yep. heavens gate is moving right now and there are people working. I'm letting my stoke build a bit


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yep. heavens gate is moving right now and there are people working. I'm letting my stoke build a bit


HG was also spinning last night. Pretty weird (and cool) seeing it going at night in the dark.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> HG was also spinning last night. Pretty weird (and cool) seeing it going at night in the dark.


That's how snowmakers get to the top for gun run.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2021)

i brought all my skis from my parents house when i went to visit a few weeks ago and just realized my boot bag is still there. fuck me. looks like a Thursday night of traffic to long island is in the cards. MOM COME VISIT RIGHT NOW?


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2021)

tumbler said:


> That's how snowmakers get to the top for gun run.


Yea...I figured as much. That must be interesting riding the lift at night in the dark.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i brought all my skis from my parents house when i went to visit a few weeks ago and just realized my boot bag is still there. fuck me. looks like a Thursday night of traffic to long island is in the cards. MOM COME VISIT RIGHT NOW?


Love the motivation but opening day Jester>Deathspout is not for me.  Terrible snow quality and a total shit show


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Love the motivation but opening day Jester>Deathspout is not for me.  Terrible snow quality and a total shit show



i wouldn't be in a big rush but i am moving on december 8 and my sisters wedding is december 11. so the weekend of december 4 is for packing, and the weekend of december 17 is for settling in to new house. we are going to visit my girl's family for the first time since pre-covid from 12/22-27, and new years weekend is kind of shitty. i have concert tix over thanksgiving weekend. so if i don't ski this weekend it is quite possible i don't ski til the weekend of jan 7 which is fucking unacceptable.


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 16, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I ski early and late pretty much every year and I will always advocate for early snowmaking.  The snow making budget is always the same and they always start at the same time.  This has never changed in the last 20 years or so.   I actually really like the early season becuse it is always the same people, we have the mountain to ourselves and it is always really fun no mater the conditions.  Actually the skiing is usually pretty good with either fresh snow or soft snow when it warms up.  It is what it is and I just hope to be on snow soon.


Also, it's not all gonna melt away. The later you get started, everything else to get worked on keeps getting pushed back, so they should probably start even earlier than they do, even if they keep the same opening weekend.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i wouldn't be in a big rush but i am moving on december 8 and my sisters wedding is december 11. so the weekend of december 4 is for packing, and the weekend of december 17 is for settling in to new house. we are going to visit my girl's family for the first time since pre-covid from 12/22-27, and new years weekend is kind of shitty. i have concert tix over thanksgiving weekend. so if i don't ski this weekend it is quite possible i don't ski til the weekend of jan 7 which is fucking unacceptable.


Then you got to go skiing this weekend!


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## shadyjay (Nov 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yea...I figured as much. That must be interesting riding the lift at night in the dark.



Haha... you have no idea!  


Got a SkiVermont 4-pass so I'm hoping to get up to Sugarbush at least once.   Won't be until the new year, since work has got me tied up until Christmas.  Still have lots of friends up there that I haven't seen in a couple years.  Heck, my board didn't even see snow last year for the first time in 20+ years.


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Love the motivation but opening day Jester>Deathspout is not for me.  Terrible snow quality and a total shit show


Tumbler I am sure you are talking from your experiences but that is certainly not case on most years.  Usually there is nobody there, no lift line and nothing that resembles a shit show at all.  Conditions have varied but more often than not, if you wait until noon or after, the conditions are soft with small bumps and skiing is great.  I am there pretty much every year.


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2021)

I have had some decent days going early too but I am fine waiting until there is a bit more terrain open.  I know it's only Wednesday but bottom of HG not looking close to ready for opening with warm spell coming.  There are some big water bars down there and off camera to the left.


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2021)

I saw that.  I am sceptical also.  I will be up there anyway and ready to go.  We will see.  Worst case is Margaritas and some hiking around.  Not in that order of course.


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## jaybird (Nov 17, 2021)

Have you people signed the Egan petition?
Doubt he’d return given what they did to him.

Hammond needs a spokesperson other than Bleh.
Too bad Win doesn’t post any longer.


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I saw that.  I am sceptical also.  I will be up there anyway and ready to go.  We will see.  Worst case is Margaritas and some hiking around.  Not in that order of course.


At least you can start getting into apres shape!


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## Cobbold (Nov 17, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Have you people signed the Egan petition?
> Doubt he’d return given what they did to him.
> 
> Hammond needs a spokesperson other than Bleh.
> Too bad Win doesn’t post any longer.


I signed it like a year ago wasn’t it posted on ski talk forum


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2021)

heaven's gate cam guns are now off 

and killington got the green light for the race


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> heaven's gate cam guns are now off
> 
> and killington got the green light for the race


Not surprising considering it is 35 at Allyn's lodge at the moment...

Also awesome to hear K got the green light from the FIS.


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2021)

Not opening this weekend


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2021)

bummer. got a source? not seeing it on site or socials.


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2021)

Got an email:

While Mother Nature delivered this week with 10” of new snow, we are unfortunately preparing for a significant warm-up tomorrow with temperatures in the 50s and rain. Knowing that, we are planning to postpone opening day, hopefully to sometime in the next week, when we can get some better snowmaking temps. In the meantime, get those skis and boards tuned and keep checking the snow report for updates.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2021)

yea, just got it. bummer. i may burn an ikon killington day since my next chance to ski is very far from now


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## Smellytele (Nov 17, 2021)

bummer
May take a ride up to SR to deal with the midstation...


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 18, 2021)

Maybe burn a Killington day after bird day...


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 18, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Got an email:
> 
> While Mother Nature delivered this week with 10” of new snow, we are unfortunately preparing for a significant warm-up tomorrow with temperatures in the 50s and rain. Knowing that, we are planning to postpone opening day, hopefully to sometime in the next week, when we can get some better snowmaking temps. In the meantime, get those skis and boards tuned and keep checking the snow report for updates.


The email went out at 1700 yesterday and their website still notes that they may open. You would think that they would make a better effort to provide current information. The current management has no ability to provide a stoke for the upcoming season and has no ability to communicate with their loyal season pass holders- 35 years for me.


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2021)

Castlerockrisk said:


> The email went out at 1700 yesterday and their website still notes that they may open. You would think that they would make a better effort to provide current information. The current management has no ability to provide a stoke for the upcoming season and has no ability to communicate with their loyal season pass holders- 35 years for me.


Yea...there's little excuse for not updating the website the same time the e-mail went out saying they would be delaying the opening date.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 18, 2021)

They also had a glaring typo in the website snow report all week


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## tumbler (Nov 18, 2021)

Meanwhile the app seems to have gotten worse.  Under weather and conditions its not even Sugarbush lifts and trail count that is there, its a different mountain.


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Meanwhile the app seems to have gotten worse.  Under weather and conditions its not even Sugarbush lifts and trail count that is there, its a different mountain.


That has happened to me quite a few times. Usually reopening the app "fixes" it. Sometimes you go to the webcam section in the app and you'll get an error saying "configfile not found" as well or something like that too. Extremely buggy.


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## tumbler (Nov 18, 2021)

Looking pretty toasty on the webcams


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Looking pretty toasty on the webcams


Damn...I hadn't looked at them today until now. Now that the natural that fell has nearly disappeared it makes it much easier to see how much is still needed. Even DS just below Allyn's looks like it has quite a ways to go yet.


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## Hawk (Nov 18, 2021)

Looks at the camera this afternoon, they were not even close.  That system just has no balls whatsoever.  Oh well.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Looks at the camera this afternoon, they were not even close.  That system just has no balls whatsoever.  Oh well.


De ja vu all over again.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2021)

forecast isnt promising either.  same thing as last year iirc.


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## djd66 (Nov 18, 2021)

seeing how little snow they blew, why did they even bother? They knew last week that we would have this warm up, so unless they were factorIng in the warmth, I just don’t get the logic of spending money to blow snow that is only going to melt away to nothing after a day of warm weather.  we are only seeing what is visible from the 2 cams,… although I doubt there are huge whales that are out of view.


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2021)

djd66 said:


> seeing how little snow they blew, why did they even bother? They knew last week that we would have this warm up, so unless they were factorIng in the warmth, I just don’t get the logic of spending money to blow snow that is only going to melt away to nothing after a day of warm weather.  we are only seeing what is visible from the 2 cams,… although I doubt there are huge whales that are out of view.



Temps were much better above Allyns...so I bet there are some decent whales higher up on Jester and OG. DS though is a tough call. Everything they blew isn't going to melt. And the temperature forecasts aren't always entirely accurate. Just a few degrees can make a big difference. If they hadn't tried to make any snow on DS, people would be complaining about that. I think they made the right call. The weather just didn't cooperate.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2021)

These early snowmaking discussions are indeed “deja vu all over again“. I don’t plan to post a lot or offer opinions But I might occasionally attempt to clarify some things based on my experience these past 20 years. I am available to advise Sugarbush if asked if asked but am not part of any management meetings, don‘t attend snow plan and don’t see the daily weather report Sugarbush receives which forecasts important details such as temperatures, humidity, wind, snow. That said here are a few thoughts.

Sugarbush has and I suspect will continue to turn snowmaking on immediately after the meter is read in the first days of November and temperatures allow. As many of you know, it is not just  the ambient temperature that matters. Humidity is a big factor and one looks at what is called the wet-bulb temperature. The lower the humidity the lower the wet-bulb and better for both quality and quantity of snowmaking. It is very inefficient making snow above 28 degrees wb, and it really only starts to get efficient below 25wb. Snowmakers loved it in the the low teens. As you can observe there can be a 10 degree or more difference between summit and base and this time of year we can also experience inversions when base temps are higher than summit temps. Thus, each day a snow plan meeting is held and based on the forecast the next 24 hour plan is put into place. But audibles often have to be called on a moments notice when reality becomes different than reality.

Because Killington is making snow for an FIS event and racers love “ice” they will push the limit even is the snow is glop. Doing that on other trails can create lousy condition that last all season. I would also add as many of you know it is best to let the whales sit for 48 hours to drain. It makes for much better conditions.

The new low efficient equipment means that only  compressor is needed at both LP and ME. In the past the mountain was short of air, now the limitation is the amount of water that can be moved those the pipes. LP will peak around 3,800-4,000 gallons per minute (GMP) while ME‘s peak is around 2,500. Elevation can make a difference too as more pressure is required the higher you go. It takes approximately 180,000 gallons of water to make one acre  foot of snow. Sugarbush‘s plan has been and I think still is to try to feet three feet of snow out down before moving on. That creates sufficient depth to do and continue to groom well. Take a trail like Inverness which is twenty five acres. That requires 13.5 million gallons.

We had a long-term plan to increase the snowmaking capacity at LP to get more water through the system, but this is a multi-year permitting process and a very large investment. I have not heard anything that this has changed.

There was a comment about wasting energy in marginal temps. Once a compressor is turned on it is the same cost whether one gun is one or 75 are. Guns may run at the summit and halfway down Organgrinder for example but may not be able to go lower. It makes sense to do that because when temps fall the top can be finished and you can continue marching down the slope.

It looks like snowmaking resumed overnight on the lower portions of Jester and Downs and maybe lower Organgrinder (but the app is not showing accurate temps so I am really guessing having coffee over in East Warren). The big issue is going to be wants happens on later Sunday and Monday. It looks like a good window of opportunity until then.

Hope this was useful.  My skis are tuned and I am eager to get out and see you all,on the slopes.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 19, 2021)

"It takes approximately 180,000 gallons of water to make one cubic foot of snow." What.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2021)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> "It takes approximately 180,000 gallons of water to make one cubic foot of snow." What.


HA HA. Good catch. Should have waiting to second cup of coffee. One word missing. it is 180,000 per acre foot. One Acre one foot deep. As I recall Upper Snowball/Spring Fling is 15-18 acres so that can get done running at 3,800 gmp in about 2 -21/2 days. If temps are in the 20s it will take longer.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 19, 2021)

43500 sq ft in an acre...thats a lot of snow if you look at it that way.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2021)

blowing on allyns and heavens gate cams again. wonder if they are shooting for sunday? I'm gonna do a day trip to killington tomorrow just to get my legs under me


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 19, 2021)

WinS said:


> HA HA. Good catch. Should have waiting to second cup of coffee. One word missing. it is 180,000 per acre foot. One Acre one foot deep. As I recall Upper Snowball/Spring Fling is 15-18 acres so that can get done running at 3,800 gmp in about 2 -21/2 days. If temps are in the 20s it will take longer.


I was almost about to swear off skiing anywhere that makes snow ever again


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## mikec142 (Nov 19, 2021)

The quote below is from the Egan article.  It's the kind of journalism that I despise.  Put numbers to the quote...don't use the words many or most.

"Regardless of the reason, Egan's firing has led many longtime Sugarbush skiers and riders to reconsider whether they'll buy Alterra's season passes this winter. Many Sugarbush employees resigned in protest, including veteran lift mechanics and most instructors in the resort's elite ski programs."


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 19, 2021)

Is that true or is it conjecture?


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## mikec142 (Nov 19, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Is that true or is it conjecture?


I have no idea, but how many "longtime sugarbush skiers and riders" do we believe that the author talked to?  Five at most?  Or did they talk to one who said, many of my friends are pissed.  And then they write the line "many longtime sugarbush skiers and riders"  It's embarrassingly bad journalism that's designed to stoke anger and division which leads to clicks on the internet.


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## Hawk (Nov 19, 2021)

So I can verify that up until about a couple months ago, they did have a real shortage of lift machanics.  I heard something like 8 left.  I assumed is was to better paying jobs or something like that.  I can not say if they left in protest.  I can also confirm that a large group of the Bushpilot, adventure blazer crew left.  This includes most of the Vermont North crew.  Not sure of the numbers but in my opinion it was substancial.  I also know of a few other people that have been here for years left.  I can understand the article entirely.  I personlly know that a good portion of the long time regulars are pissed.  I ski and bike with a lot of these guys.  For someone that is not invested in the community, is woudl be hard to understand the impact.  I for one feel it is a big disapontment.  Those people and those programs were something that made Sugarbush different and better than other places.  Just ask any person or parent that was involved.  
Will it stop me from sking here no.  Do I think things are better...absolutely not.  We lost part of our identity and to some extent, our soul.  But that is just my opinion.  Like everything there are two sides.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2021)

I will comment on lift mechanics.  For a number of years this has been the most challenging position in the ski industry to fill, especially in the East. Tough job, dangerous and often long hours. Imagine climbing towers after an ice storm and chipping ice. Almost every resort I knew has been advertising for lift mechanics the past few years. There is a shortage of trained mechanics especially with electrical backgrounds. Sugarbush lost some this past summer to employers like Darned Tough Socks and Global Foundries. Good pay, 40 hours, indoors. Even after leaving, however, they helped in the transition. I know one experienced mechanic who returned to Sugarbush this summer after a few years  at Cooper.  This lift mechanic issue was a discussion at a recent NSAA meeting I attended. My understanding is the summer maintenance and State inspections stayed on schedule.


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## Cobbold (Nov 19, 2021)

WinS said:


> These early snowmaking discussions are indeed “deja vu all over again“. I don’t plan to post a lot or offer opinions But I might occasionally attempt to clarify some things based on my experience these past 20 years. I am available to advise Sugarbush if asked if asked but am not part of any management meetings, don‘t attend snow plan and don’t see the daily weather report Sugarbush receives which forecasts important details such as temperatures, humidity, wind, snow. That said here are a few thoughts.
> 
> Sugarbush has and I suspect will continue to turn snowmaking on immediately after the meter is read in the first days of November and temperatures allow. As many of you know, it is not just  the ambient temperature that matters. Humidity is a big factor and one looks at what is called the wet-bulb temperature. The lower the humidity the lower the wet-bulb and better for both quality and quantity of snowmaking. It is very inefficient making snow above 28 degrees wb, and it really only starts to get efficient below 25wb. Snowmakers loved it in the the low teens. As you can observe there can be a 10 degree or more difference between summit and base and this time of year we can also experience inversions when base temps are higher than summit temps. Thus, each day a snow plan meeting is held and based on the forecast the next 24 hour plan is put into place. But audibles often have to be called on a moments notice when reality becomes different than reality.
> 
> ...


ot , but in my younger years I worked three years with Bart Hendricks, a wonderful man, he owned the land and was part of the original group of skiers who started jiminy peak, he would pop into my office from time to time and talk about jiminy, one time he talked about the cost of snowmaking, it shocked me how expensive it was to lay down a foot of snow over a one acre location, but his exact words were ,where are you without it.   Warren Miller in his film, many moods of skiing, shot in 1960, showed in 61, spends a lot of time on bousquet’s snowmaking expertise and mentions one acre snowmaking cost is 20 dollars can’t remember whether that was one inch or a foot, watched this movie about 6 months ago.


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## WinS (Nov 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> So I can verify that up until about a couple months ago, they did have a real shortage of lift machanics.  I heard something like 8 left.  I assumed is was to better paying jobs or something like that.  I can not say if they left in protest.  I can also confirm that a large group of the Bushpilot, adventure blazer crew left.  This includes most of the Vermont North crew.  Not sure of the numbers but in my opinion it was substancial.  I also know of a few other people that have been here for years left.  I can understand the article entirely.  I personlly know that a good portion of the long time regulars are pissed.  I ski and bike with a lot of these guys.  For someone that is not invested in the community, is woudl be hard to understand the impact.  I for one feel it is a big disapontment.  Those people and those programs were something that made Sugarbush different and better than other places.  Just ask any person or parent that was involved.
> Will it stop me from sking here no.  Do I think things are better...absolutely not.  We lost part of our identity and to some extent, our soul.  But that is just my opinion.  Like everything there are two sides.


As I recall there were 8-10 Bush Pilot coaches who alternated weekends. Several had shop commitments on the weekends.  The program was on Saturdays. The program was John’s idea to to create a few years ago,  and he recruited the Vermont North team for the program. Bush Pilots did not happen last year due to COVID, so they obviously were not at Sugarbush, and I would  guess without John they would not come back.The total instructors in Ski & Ride usually run around 450 as a I recall.  I have no idea who will be back this year, but the several veterans who have been here decades and whom  I have seen recently said they will be back this year. I guess we will see. I have heard that a few are reluctant to get vaccinated which is a requirement for ski& ride, patrol, rentals and employee housing. That was announced recently. I did hear that Blazers are sold out with a waiting list.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 20, 2021)

WinS said:


> As I recall there were 8-10 Bush Pilot coaches who alternated weekends. Several had shop commitments on the weekends.  The program was on Saturdays. The program was John’s idea to to create a few years ago,  and he recruited the Vermont North team for the program. Bush Pilots did not happen last year due to COVID, so they obviously were not at Sugarbush, and I would  guess without John they would not come back.The total instructors in Ski & Ride usually run around 450 as a I recall.  I have no idea who will be back this year, but the several veterans who have been here decades and whom  I have seen recently said they will be back this year. I guess we will see. I have heard that a few are reluctant to get vaccinated which is a requirement for ski& ride, patrol, rentals and employee housing. That was announced recently. I did hear that Blazers are sold out with a waiting list.


Win thank you for jumping back in and providing input and your local knowledge to this forum. Your stewardship is missed, and We all hope that you can use your influence to try to get someone on the current management team to be more transparent and open with the community. I know John H, and he is a very hard worker, being a COO can be a burdon and tough decisions and chnges are always embraced. He needs to get someone on his team to take over what you perfected- which is great transparent community dialogue. I realize that it sometimes takes someone with thick skin to do what you did with class for many years at ML and for the mountain.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 20, 2021)

Latest snow report:

Good news! We have a new projected Opening Day planned for Wednesday, November 24th. We plan to open with Heaven's Gate spinning 9:00 AM - 3:00 PM and Super Bravo loading 9:00 AM - 2:45 PM (with downloading running later until all trails are cleared). Join us for the first turns of the season on Jester, Organgrinder, Allyn’s Traverse and Downspout. Snowmaking will continue as temps allow, and we will begin moving down the mountain to hopefully open top-to-bottom as soon as we can.


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## Hawk (Nov 20, 2021)

They are currently blowing snow all the way to the bottom this morning.  Temp is headed upwards.  It is 35 right now at just above the base.


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2021)

They keep doing little tweaks here and there to the website/trail report. All the glades now say "Not Patrolled" instead of the "Closed" listed on the other trails which makes sense with the way SB handles glades. I see the uphill routes are now listed too so you can see the status of them easily. I still think they need to refine which "area" some of the glades are listed in though...for example how can "Lower Snowball Woods" and "Eden" be on Lincoln Peak when the trails you enter/exit those glades from are listed on "Gadd Peak"? Realistically Grandstand is probably the only official glad that should be listed under the "Lincoln Peak" section. Little details like that bug me...

I also see another "bug" on the app... (or perhaps just a missing feature). It doesn't show the snow-making status of trails on the trail list in the app. The website shows several trails with snow-making active, yet looking at the trail report on the app you can't see that same info.


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## Newpylong (Nov 21, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> ot , but in my younger years I worked three years with Bart Hendricks, a wonderful man, he owned the land and was part of the original group of skiers who started jiminy peak, he would pop into my office from time to time and talk about jiminy, one time he talked about the cost of snowmaking, it shocked me how expensive it was to lay down a foot of snow over a one acre location, but his exact words were ,where are you without it.   Warren Miller in his film, many moods of skiing, shot in 1960, showed in 61, spends a lot of time on bousquet’s snowmaking expertise and mentions one acre snowmaking cost is 20 dollars can’t remember whether that was one inch or a foot, watched this movie about 6 months ago.



At the small ski area I ran we figured it cost us 2-3 grand to make snow for a 24 hour period. That's a single pump, a single compressor (sometimes we would augment more air with a rental), and labor. That is a lot of money for a small hill to swallow so every snowmaking window has to be productive. Multiply this cost by the higher energy and labor costs of a large mountain and the number is astronomical.


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## WinS (Nov 21, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> At the small ski area I ran we figured it cost us 2-3 grand to make snow for a 24 hour period. That's a single pump, a single compressor (sometimes we would augment more air with a rental), and labor. That is a lot of money for a small hill to swallow so every snowmaking window has to be productive. Multiply this cost by the higher energy and labor costs of a large mountain and the number is astronomical.


The good news is that the low energy equipment allowed Sugarbush to reduce the Kwhs used over a season 30% or more. Good for the environment and the bottom line.


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## mister moose (Nov 21, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> At the small ski area I ran we figured it cost us 2-3 grand to make snow for a 24 hour period. That's a single pump, a single compressor (sometimes we would augment more air with a rental), and labor. That is a lot of money for a small hill to swallow so every snowmaking window has to be productive. Multiply this cost by the higher energy and labor costs of a large mountain and the number is astronomical.


Run these numbers the other way - when it snows, what's it worth?  That's where you get a really astronomical number.


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## mikec142 (Nov 22, 2021)

WinS said:


> As I recall there were 8-10 Bush Pilot coaches who alternated weekends. Several had shop commitments on the weekends.  The program was on Saturdays. The program was John’s idea to to create a few years ago,  and he recruited the Vermont North team for the program. Bush Pilots did not happen last year due to COVID, so they obviously were not at Sugarbush, and I would  guess without John they would not come back.The total instructors in Ski & Ride usually run around 450 as a I recall.  I have no idea who will be back this year, but the several veterans who have been here decades and whom  I have seen recently said they will be back this year. I guess we will see. I have heard that a few are reluctant to get vaccinated which is a requirement for ski& ride, patrol, rentals and employee housing. That was announced recently. I did hear that Blazers are sold out with a waiting list.


Win and Hawk,

I very much appreciate all the insight you provide about Sugarbush.  It helps provide much needed context.

I've never met John.  I'm sure he's a huge presence in the skiing world and at SB.  But I find that articles like the one that was quoted upthread are usually written from a POV that the author wants to get across.  In this case, it felt like the author wanted to stir up controversy.  There very well may be something there as I'm sure that his departure hurts, but I highly doubt its as significant as the author tries to make it by using words like most and many.  I also find that people are looking for convenient ways to make a decision, so in the case of instructors who weren't willing to get vaxxed, it's very easy to say, we are quitting in support of John.


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2021)

They stopped blowing on Downspout and they started blowing on Spring Fling.  The question I have, is there enough snow on Donwspout to ski down to the lift?  The bottom camera makes it look a little thin.  Just wontering.


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## flakeydog (Nov 23, 2021)

I can only assume they are taking advantage of the cold and making as much as they can down low.  Low 20s at the base now so production should be decent.  They can always pull back up the hill if it warms up to marginal territory.  Also, maybe there is some snow to push from Downspout to the HG base area? or they will cover this afternoon.  Who knows?  Looking forward to seeing in person tomorrow in any case.


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2021)

Roger that!


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2021)

dunno when it was last cleared but there's 3" on the stake and looks like a nice squall on other webcams right now


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 23, 2021)

While I understand about making snow lower on the mountain when possible, I'm surprised they're focusing on SF instead of lower DS and Coffee Run to get TTB skiing?


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2021)

The guns and piping on snowball/spring fling are new and have a much better output.  They will have top to bottom Jester>Allyns Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling.  If you chose to ski Organ Grinder you just have to go back up HG lift or if the line is long, just take off your skis and walk up DS about 50 yards.


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2021)

FYI last year it took them at least 4 or 5 days to get enough coverage from HG chair bottom down to the bottom.  Snowball / Spring Fling took 2 or 3.


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## flakeydog (Nov 23, 2021)

Maybe they are looking at Snowball/Spring Fling as TTB route?  Though prob not tomorrow, perhaps by the weekend?

There have been years where they under-promise and over-deliver on opening days.  I don't mind one run down lower jester under the guns so we don't have to download.

Spotted on cam, pushing for HG load area:


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## slatham (Nov 23, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Maybe they are looking at Snowball/Spring Fling as TTB route?  Though prob not tomorrow, perhaps by the weekend?
> 
> There have been years where they under-promise and over-deliver on opening days.  I don't mind one run down lower jester under the guns so we don't have to download.
> 
> ...


Yes you can't go off of what you can see on the cam. There's a lot of territory out of picture. Looks like they have plenty of snow to push to the lift load area. 

Also, VHT/SB/SF is a way better route, and a separate pod, to add vs lower DS.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 23, 2021)

Just watched for a few minutes.  They are pushing from a decent distance, as the CAT disappeared for a while off camera.  They also just pushed snow into the lift terminal, so I'd say they are definitely getting HG ready!


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The guns and piping on snowball/spring fling are new and have a much better output.  They will have top to bottom Jester>Allyns Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling.  If you chose to ski Organ Grinder you just have to go back up HG lift or if the line is long, just take off your skis and walk up DS about 50 yards.


Yup... Spring Fling/Snowball is a much better/faster route to cover than lower DS with those upgraded pipes and guns over there. Doesn't surprise me one bit that they started on that once they had temps and felt they had enough on DS. Ever since they upgraded those pipes they've made that route a lower mountain priority. Gives more room to spread out too as Snowball/Spring Fling is something you can lap while lower DS really isn't intended for that.


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## Hawk (Nov 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Just watched for a few minutes.  They are pushing from a decent distance, as the CAT disappeared for a while off camera.  They also just pushed snow into the lift terminal, so I'd say they are definitely getting HG ready!



Here you go.


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## teleo (Nov 23, 2021)

Hopefully VHT, SB, SF by fri.  A much better option than everyone must go down from HG.  That's how deathspout earns it's name.


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## WinS (Nov 23, 2021)

I was just up at the base area and ran into John Hammond who was checking out a flood in Rumble’s. They are maxing out on water and looking at the forecast that should last at least until morning. I believe snow has also been made on Valley House Traverse so that would create top to bottom. Hawk is correct. At this level of production we could be skiing whales on SB/SF by Thanksgiving if nothing goes wrong. I also know that getting a trail or two on GH and the Welcome Mat is a priority, so I am sure the forecast will determine where they go next. Over at ME the guns are on Inverness to get that ready for GMVS. see you early birds tomorrow.


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## Hawk (Nov 24, 2021)

I just watched the first chair go up on the web cam.  Got my blood pumpin!  So jealous.  Friday for me.

Look like Will Waite(Bill Belichick) was first chair.  LOL


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## tumbler (Nov 24, 2021)

Looked like a decent crowd.  Encouraging progress for Snowball/Spring Fling.  Another good snowmaking window Saturday so maybe they can get to the  base from HG.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 24, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I just watched the first chair go up on the web cam.  Got my blood pumpin!  So jealous.  Friday for me.
> 
> Look like Will Waite(Bill Belichick) was first chair.  LOL


so I'm not the only one who noticed the belichek doppleganger.

friday night straight through monday temps look great for snowmaking


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 24, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Love the motivation but opening day Jester>Deathspout is not for me.  Terrible snow quality and a total shit show


I'm glad Im not the only one who dislikes downspout...


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 24, 2021)

Then you would have loved it 6 to 7 years ago when we have an awful winter.  Christmas holiday, it was pretty much the only trail open.  Ski school had a conga line going down the middle of the trail. while hundreds of people skiing around them.


ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I'm glad Im not the only one who dislikes downspout...


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## Hawk (Nov 25, 2021)

I like skiing on any trail.  This time of year I am not discriminating any trail so I guess I like downspout.  I am grateful there is snow.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 25, 2021)

Day 1 for me today.  Warmer temperature and softer snow than expected. Skiing is fun !


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## WWF-VT (Nov 26, 2021)

Switched to snow at elevation around 10:30 AM.  Looks like it's time to do the afternoon shift.  Gary at WCAX says there could be 8" to 14" at some of the higher mountain peaks before this storms winds down on Saturday.


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## WinS (Nov 26, 2021)

Snowball and Spring Fling had really nice soft snow today. It is so nice to be top to bottom and not down loading. They did a groom last night which made a big difference. I think the plan is to winch Organgrinder tonight and turn the snowmaking back on SB/SF to finish up. The lower portion of SF needs another good 24 hours to fill in the water bars. It will be in high teens or low 20’s so snowmaking should come in well along with the natural snow we are getting. The forecast for the next week to ten days is looking good, so GH should come in quickly and that will spread people out even more.


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## ducky (Nov 26, 2021)

Soft snow top to bottom, nobody there. Snow tonight but forecast big winds tomorrow.


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## Hawk (Nov 27, 2021)

Yup the skiing was great yesterday.  Started the day with soft spring like conditions and fairly smothing skiing.  The cold front starting coming in around 11:00 so the temps started dropping from top to bottom.  Upper OG started to get a little firmer as the afternooon went on but SB/SF was soft all afternoon.  Especially the right side.  There was no sh*# show or white ribbon of death and Downspout was actually fine.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 28, 2021)

Looks like some really good snowmaking temps this week.  Beside the learning area, where will they expand next?  Will Lower downspout/lower jest/coffee run take the entire week? Or will they be able to add Domino chute/lower og/lower Jester?


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## teleo (Nov 28, 2021)

Thay were setting up hoses on village beginner area.  I think win mentioned pushover to open GH side, spread people out and have terrain for all abilities.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> Looks like some really good snowmaking temps this week.  Beside the learning area, where will they expand next?  Will Lower downspout/lower jest/coffee run take the entire week? Or will they be able to add Domino chute/lower og/lower Jester?


This was posted on the Sugarbush blog on their website yesterday....



> Now that we have a full route down, our snowmaking teams will move to the next phase of terrain expansion: beginner trails. With this string of cold temperatures coming in for the next week plus, we have ample opportunity to start getting some beginner terrain online. The benefits are two-fold. Not only do we get terrain open for all ability levels, it also allows different skill groups to enjoy their own designated areas. When you have beginners, intermediates, and experts all sharing a trail, it can make for some tricky maneuvering for everyone involved. Once we have some beginner terrain open, it should move that group off of the intermediate/expert trails for the most part and provide a better overall experience.
> 
> Once that’s through, we’ll likely return to the Lincoln Peak/Gadd Peak sections of the mountain, with the goal to start providing multiple routes down the hill.


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## ss20 (Nov 28, 2021)

I'd think a better strategy would be to blow up high.  With the natural snow and cold temps it wouldn't take many snowmaking hours to get upper mountain terrain open.  Then once there's a few routes to spread people out go back and work down low.  Kinda like how Killington will almost always (but not this year) get Upper Dipper, Downdraft Headwall, and Upper East Fall open in the North Ridge before moving on the GN down to the bottom of the K1.


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I'd think a better strategy would be to blow up high.  With the natural snow and cold temps it wouldn't take many snowmaking hours to get upper mountain terrain open.  Then once there's a few routes to spread people out go back and work down low.  Kinda like how Killington will almost always (but not this year) get Upper Dipper, Downdraft Headwall, and Upper East Fall open in the North Ridge before moving on the GN down to the bottom of the K1.


Up high where? Ripcord? (Upper Jester and Organgrinder are both already open...) That doesn't gain you much...blowing on Gate House terrain gets you an entire extra lift to help spread people out and take some pressure off of Heaven's Gate. Another route off the summit would just drive more people to Heaven's Gate...which is not what you need if the goal is to spread people out.

With cold temps down low it makes complete sense to hit whatever you can closer to the bottom first. You can always go back up higher on the mountain to Ripcord (or even mid-mountain routes) when the base temps warm up a bit and limit your options at the base.


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## ss20 (Nov 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Up high where? Ripcord? (Upper Jester and Organgrinder are both already open...) That doesn't gain you much...blowing on Gate House terrain gets you an entire extra lift to help spread people out and take some pressure off of Heaven's Gate. Another route off the summit would just drive more people to Heaven's Gate...which is not what you need if the goal is to spread people out.
> 
> With cold temps down low it makes complete sense to hit whatever you can closer to the bottom first. You can always go back up higher on the mountain to Ripcord (or even mid-mountain routes) when the base temps warm up a bit and limit your options at the base.



Ah ok.  I thought it was just U. Jester.


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2021)

Getting GH open will help getting beginners off SB but they need to get lower jester and lower downspout done.  Having those open frees up Lower OG, Birdland and Murphys which really starts to spread the crowd out.  But they will be on GH for the next week.

And like a broken record, the new app is terrible.  So little info and too many clicks to get somewhere.  Only shows the base temp.  I just use the website.


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## Hawk (Nov 29, 2021)

I was lookng at the app on Friday and saturday to see if they had snow totals and I could not find that.  Also it looks like they rmoved the time lapse on the snow board so you can't tell how much fell over night or over the course of the day.  I think that is a minus.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2021)

tumbler said:


> And like a broken record, the new app is terrible.  So little info and too many clicks to get somewhere.  Only shows the base temp.  I just use the website.


My dad installed the new app over Thanksgiving after he asked me why the old app wasn't working anymore and I told him he needed to install the new app. First thing he said was "wtf is this shit? This is terrible. Why did they change something that worked great? Why are all the trails in 1 big alphabetical list? This is useless..."


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## tumbler (Nov 29, 2021)

We'll see how things progress as the season goes along but it feels more "corporatety" up there now.  Not to be unexpected I guess with all the turnover.


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2021)

Getting GH open will help getting beginners off SB but they need to get lower jester and lower downspout done.  Having those open frees up Lower OG, Birdland and Murphys which really starts to spread the crowd out.  But they will be on GH for the next week.


tumbler said:


> And like a broken record, the new app is terrible.  So little info and too many clicks to get somewhere.  Only shows the base temp.  I just use the website.


As noted before all the temps are on there for peak, middle and base just need to click on the left where it says “Today (base)” and you can choose the other 2.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> As noted before all the temps are on there for peak, middle and base just need to click on the left where it says “Today (base)” and you can choose the other 2.



I'm not seeing any way to click/tap on the temp on the "Weather & Snow Conditions" section within the app... This is the info that is 1 click from the main page.


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not seeing any way to click/tap on the temp on the "Weather & Snow Conditions" section within the app... This is the info that is 1 click from the main page.
> 
> View attachment 52288


Right it is under Infó temps. As noted too many clicks though to get to them.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Right it is under Infó temps. As noted too many clicks though to get to them.


Yea...the option you're talking about via the Info menu is really just displaying that page from their website within the app itself. At that point you may as well bypass the app and use the website. An app that acts as a browser to display an actual webpage is a waste of an app...


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 30, 2021)

Gosh, they opened Ripchord - no snowmaking thank goodness!
After 6 consecutive top to bottoms of pure bliss, took life in hands heading down Spring Fling - which was so bumpilicous on Sunday - straight to Castlerock Pub for a couple Fiddlehead Aethereum’s on tap. Life was really good yesterday!


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## jaybird (Nov 30, 2021)

Ripcord top was snausages.
Mid was decent.
Spillsville Funtastik.
GMVS peeps radar violations ongoing.


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## WinS (Nov 30, 2021)

Some perspective. The temps of the past few days were good for lower level snowmaking. It looks like temps will rise and snowmaking will stop tomorrow morning,  but looking at things today I think  that Pushover, Slowpoke, Easy Rider, First Time, Welcome Mat and Sugar Bear Road will be ready for the weekend. Having beginner and intermediate terrain available is a huge plus.  In my opinion, the next priority is moving ground gear over to Lower Downspout, Lower Jester, Coffee Run tomorrow to turn on when temps fall late Thursday. A path down from Heaven’s Gate is a priority. If temps stay down focusing on mid-mountain makes the most sense next.  Jester is an important trail to get open ASAP and needs land gear set up on it. The towers on Lower Organgrinder are very efficient and that trail can come in fast.  No one focuses on ME yet. However, it looks like Inverness is close to being finished so snowmaking can move elsewhere to get terrain ready for opening in three weeks.

Ripcord was good for first run, but I would not ski it now. A lot poached on Saturday when Windhold came off.

Like all of you I am getting used to new APP so holding judgment, I do see all three level temps. I understand more web cams are coming which will be helpful.


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## tumbler (Dec 1, 2021)

Looking at the cams there is a demo day today?  A Wednesday in early December seems a bit random.  Nothing about it in the events calendar and while I was in the calendar no mentions of apres music.  I hope there will be music this year.


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## ss20 (Dec 1, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Looking at the cams there is a demo day today?  A Wednesday in early December seems a bit random.  Nothing about it in the events calendar and while I was in the calendar no mentions of apres music.  I hope there will be music this year.



Could be ski shops/industry reps.  They do a lot of private events with the manufacturers.


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## Hawk (Dec 1, 2021)

I am sure it is something like that.  There is no point in having a general demo day and not advertising.


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## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Could be ski shops/industry reps.  They do a lot of private events with the manufacturers.


It’s for employees only…


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## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> It’s for employees only…


Also HG went down and they are shuttling people to the bottom.


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## Tin Woodsman (Dec 1, 2021)

Indeed.   Looks like they are having an impromptu lift ops staff meeting to figure it out.  Also looks like they are about to go all in on Lower Downspout/Jester to the base.


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## cdskier (Dec 1, 2021)

Snow report says HG will be running tomorrow...


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## WinS (Dec 1, 2021)

tumbler said:


> We'll see how things progress as the season goes along but it feels more "corporatety" up there now.  Not to be unexpected I guess with all the turnover.





Smellytele said:


> It’s for employees only…


It was for Outdoor Gear employees. They have done this before.


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## WinS (Dec 1, 2021)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Indeed.   Looks like they are having an impromptu lift ops staff meeting to figure it out.  Also looks like they are about to go all in on Lower Downspout/Jester to the base.
> View attachment 52304


Someone did not unload correctly at the top and caused a misalignment in the haul rope. Yup, they are setting up to go down to the base once temps come in again late tomorrow.


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## mikec142 (Dec 1, 2021)

WinS said:


> It was for Outdoor Gear employees. They have fine this before.


One of my favorite stores in the world.  It's so hard to find a store where the employees have expertise around the products they sell.  OGE is a champ in that area.


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## jaybird (Dec 2, 2021)

What we’re they demoing? Clothing ? Helmets ?
Tough to get a reading on ski responsiveness with the surface the way it is ..


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 2, 2021)

jaybird said:


> What we’re they demoing? Clothing ? Helmets ?
> Tough to get a reading on ski responsiveness with the surface the way it is ..


Soft turns made for excellent testing conditions today!!! tomorrow not so!!!!


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2021)

WinS said:


> Someone did not unload correctly at the top and caused a misalignment in the haul rope. Yup, they are setting up to go down to the base once temps come in again late tomorrow.



I've heard of guest interactions accidently doing that on surface lifts but never on a modern chairlift!


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## WinS (Dec 3, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I've heard of guest interactions accidently doing that on surface lifts but never on a modern chairlift!


First time for me too.


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## Hawk (Dec 4, 2021)

Headed out soon.  Looking out the window I see Gate house, Valley House and Bravo spinning with lines at all three.  Should be a good day.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 4, 2021)

Looked on their website and it looks like they are blowing snow on the lower downspout route to the bottom.  This is sure happy news for everyone.  The one criticism I have, why are the blowing on both Coffee and gondolier runs.  How much more snow making does it take to cover Domino, lower OG to lower Jester. instead on Gondolier?  Gondolier has to be wider and longer the lower OG.  Plus they will have the down hill route using Coffee run.  Anyone thoughts?


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## WinS (Dec 4, 2021)

nhskier1969 said:


> Looked on their website and it looks like they are blowing snow on the lower downspout route to the bottom.  This is sure happy news for everyone.  The one criticism I have, why are the blowing on both Coffee and gondolier runs.  How much more snow making does it take to cover Domino, lower OG to lower Jester. instead on Gondolier?  Gondolier has to be wider and longer the lower OG.  Plus they will have the down hill route using Coffee run.  Anyone thoughts?


Gondolier is the entrance and exit to the vehicle maintenance area where groomers and snowmobiles are kept and repaired, so it is good to get this done as soon as possible. Also this provides the best route to GH area so one does not have to ski around Bravo coral. I think the next movement will be to Domino Chute, Middle Jester and Lower Organgrinder. You can see land gear set up on Jester already and Lower Grinder has the HKD towers.


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## tumbler (Dec 6, 2021)

Just looked and no update on when more food and bars are opening like Wunderbar, burrito place and nomad coffee.  I hope they are are opening soon.  And very quiet on Mt Ellen opening- is that on track for next weekend?


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## WinS (Dec 6, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Just looked and no update on when more food and bars are opening like Wunderbar, burrito place and nomad coffee.  I hope they are are opening soon.  And very quiet on Mt Ellen opening- is that on track for next weekend?


802 Burritto opened last weekend. ME is scheduled to open next weekend. There is a ribbon cutting for VASS addition on Friday 12/17. I believe Wunderbar is scheduled for next weekend too, but I have not asked. Will do next time I am up at the Mtn.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 6, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Just looked and no update on when more food and bars are opening like Wunderbar, burrito place and nomad coffee.  I hope they are are opening soon.  And very quiet on Mt Ellen opening- is that on track for next weekend?


Mt Ellen gets a  Miso Hungry this season


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## IceEidolon (Dec 6, 2021)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Indeed.   Looks like they are having an impromptu lift ops staff meeting to figure it out.  Also looks like they are about to go all in on Lower Downspout/Jester to the base.
> View attachment 52304


My sympathy to their ops team for being stuck with the boat anchor Snowlogics.


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## ss20 (Dec 6, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> My sympathy to their ops team for being stuck with the boat anchor Snowlogics.



snowlogics are the absolute worst snow guns I have ever had the pleasure of skiing on.  The funky whale shapes they make almost killed me on South Bowl at Mount Snow years ago.  Shitty to ski under, and shitty quality.  I remember K tried putting them on Outer Limits for a season and there was a revolt amongst the passholders.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 6, 2021)

Yep. Neat internal concept, there's a lot of engineering involved, but they - especially the early versions - are really only happy with 700+ psi water. And they take a lot of labor to adjust on towers to drain. And they're heavy as sin. And they clog. And...

Give me an Impulse for portables and low pressure, or an SV14 if I get 450+ psi water.


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## skiur (Dec 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> snowlogics are the absolute worst snow guns I have ever had the pleasure of skiing on.  The funky whale shapes they make almost killed me on South Bowl at Mount Snow years ago.  Shitty to ski under, and shitty quality.  I remember K tried putting them on Outer Limits for a season and there was a revolt amongst the passholders.



Problem was they were only able to make snow on skiers left of the trail as the guns couldn't get snow more than halfway across the trail!


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## IceEidolon (Dec 7, 2021)

If you notice there's a lot of portable K guns and Ratniks that run under the Superstar Nologics for the same reason. This is even more true as you get further up the mountain and lose pressure and throw. Honestly at some point Killington is gonna have to bite the several million dollar bullet and run some serious fan power up Superstar.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 7, 2021)

I would be curious what it would cost to run more fans on Superstar.   I'm guessing you'd need a larger water pipe, although maybe not considering they've run 100+ air/water guns on that trail while building the race course.  You'd definitely need an electric feed.  I wonder if they could put in the feed and then run it off of a diesel generator?  

At the same time, I'm not sure any of that is really needed. You can still get better production out of their air hog fleet (K guns, ratniks) in the super marginal temps where fans don't run.  that was evident this year as there was a lot of times that the fans they had at the bottom weren't running while they were blowing with land guns and presumably a shit ton of air.


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## ss20 (Dec 7, 2021)

I doubt Killington puts fans on Supe.  As stated, the house guns and ratniks are better in marginal temps than the fans.  And they're small, portable, compact.  World Cup probably wouldn't have happened this year if they hadn't blown the absolute shit outta the top of Superstar with dozens of guns going in marginal temps when guns further down the hill couldn't.  Even with non-mounted fan guns you wouldn't get dozens of guns moved to the top and quickly to make snow in a super marginal window.  

The only places I want fans at K are Snowshed under the quad, so they can retire the snow guns that currently run dead center of the trail (stupid, dangerous for beginners, take up valuable slope space, etc).  Needle's so the natural side gets a little more blown in.  And Outer Limits so they can do more "Dust and cover"'s throughout the season after freeze-thaws so they don't have to knock down the moguls everytime they get stiff.


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## skiur (Dec 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I doubt Killington puts fans on Supe.  As stated, the house guns and ratniks are better in marginal temps than the fans.  And they're small, portable, compact.  World Cup probably wouldn't have happened this year if they hadn't blown the absolute shit outta the top of Superstar with dozens of guns going in marginal temps when guns further down the hill couldn't.  Even with non-mounted fan guns you wouldn't get dozens of guns moved to the top and quickly to make snow in a super marginal window.
> 
> The only places I want fans at K are Snowshed under the quad, so they can retire the snow guns that currently run dead center of the trail (stupid, dangerous for beginners, take up valuable slope space, etc).  Needle's so the natural side gets a little more blown in.  And Outer Limits so they can do more "Dust and cover"'s throughout the season after freeze-thaws so they don't have to knock down the moguls everytime they get stiff.



I do not want them on needles, I love how skiers right stays natural and never gets groomed. Putting more man made there ruins it in my opinion, even just a little.  I agree with ol but unfortunately the reality of today is ol will be groomed every Friday and Saturday night.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 7, 2021)

Adding fans to Superstar has nothing to do with world cup snowmaking (well, adding auto adjusting high flow high throw guns doesn't exactly hurt) and everything to do with saving labor and fuel and power while building up the Superstar Glacier. I don't recall low E guns at the top of Superstar because of water pressure issues - correct me if I'm misremembering. Fans can tolerate lower pressure than low E guns. There are also times when the towers just run out of room to put more snow - fans have double or triple the throw of a low energy tower, and can put down far more water before they run out of room. Plus, with arm mounts or convertible fan towers, you can get even more reach and altitude. 

Fans would range from $40k to $60k per, plus the cost to get substantial power to them which I'm not even going to speculate on. This is not a cheap project, but neither is making a 1000' drop 30' deep glacier out of manmade snow.


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## machski (Dec 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I doubt Killington puts fans on Supe.  As stated, the house guns and ratniks are better in marginal temps than the fans.  And they're small, portable, compact.  World Cup probably wouldn't have happened this year if they hadn't blown the absolute shit outta the top of Superstar with dozens of guns going in marginal temps when guns further down the hill couldn't.  Even with non-mounted fan guns you wouldn't get dozens of guns moved to the top and quickly to make snow in a super marginal window.
> 
> The only places I want fans at K are Snowshed under the quad, so they can retire the snow guns that currently run dead center of the trail (stupid, dangerous for beginners, take up valuable slope space, etc).  Needle's so the natural side gets a little more blown in.  And Outer Limits so they can do more "Dust and cover"'s throughout the season after freeze-thaws so they don't have to knock down the moguls everytime they get stiff.


Outer Limits is fine back with the SR7 towers for now.  Someone in the industry needs to come up with a lower energy stick with the throw distance of the SR7.  Sunday River has tested a bunch but has yet to find a good replacement for the steeper and wider runs.


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## ducky (Dec 7, 2021)

The Killington Forum


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## Hawk (Dec 7, 2021)

Wow, we went from snowmaking on Lower Downdraft, to Snowlogic guns suck to a Killington snowmaking discussion in one page.  I realize the Killington drones can't help themselves.
So back to the present, they are continuing with the snowmaking on Lower Downspout - Lower Jester - Gonollier - Coffee Run.  They should be good to go by tomorrow I would think.  They seemed close on Sunday.  Also all the guns are set up on hot shot, middle jester and organ grinder.  Warm temps Saturday.


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## cdskier (Dec 7, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Wow, we went from snowmaking on Lower *Downdraft*, to Snowlogic guns suck to a Killington snowmaking discussion in one page.


Freudian slip? LOL


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## Hawk (Dec 7, 2021)

ya that was from my old SR days.  Good catch.


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## WinS (Dec 7, 2021)

Update on F&B. Ran into Keith Paxman today. He said plan is to open downstairs of the new Wunderbar on Friday. Plan is likely both floors on weekends and Holidays probably starting Xmas week. He said it will operate similar to Worthy Burger. Order beer and food at new bar. Take beer and sit down. Runner brings you food.


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## tumbler (Dec 8, 2021)

Thanks for the update. Wunderbar concept sounds different but probably easier with less staff.


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## djd66 (Dec 8, 2021)

WinS said:


> Update on F&B. Ran into Keith Paxman today. He said plan is to open downstairs of the new Wunderbar on Friday. Plan is likely both floors on weekends and Holidays probably starting Xmas week. He said it will operate similar to Worthy Burger. Order beer and food at new bar. Take beer and sit down. Runner brings you food.


So will the existing cafeteria still be operating as it’s has in the past?


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## mrvpilgrim (Dec 8, 2021)

Another thought
Valley house cafe has historically been the lunch spot for the program kids. Blazers etc
If valley house becomes a sit down restaurant does that put this group back in Gate House for their chicken fingers and fries


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## Boxtop Willie (Dec 8, 2021)

I've heard that Blazers, etc. will be lunching in the Gate House. Valley House Cafe as we have known it is no more.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 8, 2021)

mrvpilgrim said:


> Another thought
> Valley house cafe has historically been the lunch spot for the program kids. Blazers etc
> If valley house becomes a sit down restaurant does that put this group back in Gate House for their chicken fingers and fries


maybe the last 6-8 years but before they were in the gatehouse cafeteria.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 8, 2021)

Something I've noticed about Killington vs. Sugarbush (I think this has been discussed here before) is that Sugarbush typically makes snow with high efficiency guns, lets it form whales, then lets them cure before grooming them out and opening the trail. Typically Killington makes drier, more skiable snow, and keeps the trail open while the snow is being made or grooms the trail immediately after snowmaking has been completed. I'd assume this is because of the less efficient guns that end up producing drier snow.


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## Newpylong (Dec 8, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> Adding fans to Superstar has nothing to do with world cup snowmaking (well, adding auto adjusting high flow high throw guns doesn't exactly hurt) and everything to do with saving labor and fuel and power while building up the Superstar Glacier. I don't recall low E guns at the top of Superstar because of water pressure issues - correct me if I'm misremembering. Fans can tolerate lower pressure than low E guns. There are also times when the towers just run out of room to put more snow - fans have double or triple the throw of a low energy tower, and can put down far more water before they run out of room. Plus, with arm mounts or convertible fan towers, you can get even more reach and altitude.
> 
> Fans would range from $40k to $60k per, plus the cost to get substantial power to them which I'm not even going to speculate on. This is not a cheap project, but neither is making a 1000' drop 30' deep glacier out of manmade snow.



There are no pressure issues on Superstar. Everything above Preston's Pitch where fixed equipment can reach is all No Logics (and the oddball SR7 mixed in where the Snow Logics have broken). Those are used later in the season for the glacier build with the lower wet bulb. Below tower 3 is all 30' Impulse towers.

A brand new manual Polecat (on carriage) can be had as part of a bulk buy for $25K. Add a 5 more grand for the auto model, similar cost for the tower mount options as you're just dropping the chassis and putting in more steel.

That said, you will never see a fan deployment on Superstar or anywhere at Killington other than high traffic or base areas. It is not their style. They rather have the flexibility of using different equipment in different conditions. Another issue is GMP is pretty taxed on power into the Basin. That is a large reason Killington uses so many diesel compressors vs owning more electric in house.

I am continually amazed at the lack of fixed equipment there. They don't seem overly concerned about the labor line. But, if that's how they want to roll that's how they roll. They must be doing something right.


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## Hawk (Dec 8, 2021)

Move this to the Killington Thread please.  This is Sugarbush.


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## TSQURD (Dec 8, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> maybe the last 6-8 years but before they were in the gatehouse cafeteria.


Many of the groups still ate in Valley House. The Blazers has a whole room on the bathroom level that was packed on a regular basis.  Some of the groups used the small room next to the cafeteria, but that room is way too small for the Blazers program from 2 years ago. I have heard they have a sizable waiting list this year, not sure if that's because of staffing issues or because of more interest, or some combo.  Really curious if it is more interest because the groups of my three kids fell apart, so we decided against it.  Also talked to several other families beyond our old Blazer groups that will not be doing the program due to the shortened season, cost increase, and/or old coaches not returning.   Also interestingly, a dedicated lunch room was one of the selling points when they sent the email out about the shorted program and cost increase.


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## Los (Dec 8, 2021)

TSQURD said:


> Many of the groups still ate in Valley House. The Blazers has a whole room on the bathroom level that was packed on a regular basis.  Some of the groups used the small room next to the cafeteria, but that room is way too small for the Blazers program from 2 years ago. I have heard they have a sizable waiting list this year, not sure if that's because of staffing issues or because of more interest, or some combo.  Really curious if it is more interest because the groups of my three kids fell apart, so we decided against it.  Also talked to several other families beyond our old Blazer groups that will not be doing the program due to the shortened season, cost increase, and/or old coaches not returning.   Also interestingly, a dedicated lunch room was one of the selling points when they sent the email out about the shorted program and cost increase.


Shortened hours too - now running until 2 pm instead of 3.


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## tumbler (Dec 9, 2021)

It will be fine.  A majority of the groups ate the Gatehouse anyway, the food was better than the VH cafeteria.  Plus the groups are normally in early and out before the lunch crush.  I'm intrigued to see what coaches are back this year.  Glad my kids went through the program, it is great.


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## djd66 (Dec 9, 2021)

My 2 kids went through the blazer program and had great experiences.  This Year they are both going to be blazer coaches,… full circle!


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## tumbler (Dec 9, 2021)

Awesome!


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## Los (Dec 9, 2021)

tumbler said:


> It will be fine.  A majority of the groups ate the Gatehouse anyway, the food was better than the VH cafeteria.  Plus the groups are normally in early and out before the lunch crush.  I'm intrigued to see what coaches are back this year.  Glad my kids went through the program, it is great.


There will be additional seating now in the bag room next to the cafeteria (currently being used for storage) - is what I’ve been told anyway. Unfortunately though, that means as far as bag areas go, only the two on the first floor of gate house and the one in the farmhouse remain. OTOH, people seem to have gotten used to booting at the car (good - more room for me to boot up comfortably inside).

And I believe the other room right off the cafeteria (opposite the old bag room), can’t remember what it’s called, will now be open for general seating - but I might have misunderstood.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 9, 2021)

Los said:


> There will be additional seating now in the bag room next to the cafeteria (currently being used for storage) - is what I’ve been told anyway. Unfortunately though, that means as far as bag areas go, only the two on the first floor of gate house and the one in the farmhouse remain. OTOH, people seem to have gotten used to booting at the car (good - more room for me to boot up comfortably inside).
> 
> And I believe the other room right off the cafeteria (opposite the old bag room), can’t remember what it’s called, will now be open for general seating - but I might have misunderstood.


That's not cool.  need the bag room upstairs.  without that bag room, people will leave their crap all over the place, ironically wasting more seating space in the cafeteria than will be gained in the bag room.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 9, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> That's not cool.  need the bag room upstairs.  without that bag room, people will leave their crap all over the place, ironically wasting more seating space in the cafeteria than will be gained in the bag room.


FWIW - the signs all over the place and reminders that there is no bag storage has kept the Gate House cafeteria clutter free over the past two weekends


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## flakeydog (Dec 9, 2021)

Los said:


> And I believe the other room right off the cafeteria (opposite the old bag room), can’t remember what it’s called, will now be open for general seating


You mean the room that was called the "Blazer Room"?

Also interested in what the new Valley House will look like.  Seems the order at the counter, run it to the table is becoming the new normal in the age of help wanted/ none found.  Lawson's in town is that way, and many more will prob follow suit.

And speaking of staffing, in the event that there is not someone to manage the lines at the Heaven's Gate lift, it should be converted to a series of simple 2 into 1 merges like we see on SuperBravo, Valley House, etc.  Right now it is 4-5 across into the final queue and without someone to direct it, people just pour through.


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## ducky (Dec 9, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> And speaking of staffing, in the event that there is not someone to manage the lines at the Heaven's Gate lift, it should be converted to a series of simple 2 into 1 merges like we see on SuperBravo, Valley House, etc.  Right now it is 4-5 across into the final queue and without someone to direct it, people just pour through.


No problem waiting in line if it's fair and well-managed.


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## Los (Dec 9, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW - the signs all over the place and reminders that there is no bag storage has kept the Gate House cafeteria clutter free over the past two weekends


Exactly. Storage is no longer allowed in the cafeteria.


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## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> You mean the room that was called the "Blazer Room"?
> 
> Also interested in what the new Valley House will look like.  Seems the order at the counter, run it to the table is becoming the new normal in the age of help wanted/ none found.  Lawson's in town is that way, and many more will prob follow suit.
> 
> And speaking of staffing, in the event that there is not someone to manage the lines at the Heaven's Gate lift, it should be converted to a series of simple 2 into 1 merges like we see on SuperBravo, Valley House, etc.  Right now it is 4-5 across into the final queue and without someone to direct it, people just pour through.


Lawson’s is order at counter, we give you a pager, you come get your food when it goes off.


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## flakeydog (Dec 9, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Lawson’s is order at counter, we give you a pager, you come get your food when it goes off.


Oh yes, that's right, I remember now.  I often end up on the wrong side and it is a long-ass walk with heavy plates.  Anyway staffing shortages and rising costs are giving rise to new versions of self and semi-self service to stay operational.  Some you get your own, some bring it to you, I have even had it brought over when i was supposed to get it myself.  Order at the counter or order from the table online and they find you.  I have seen lots of different iterations of food service as of late and I am sure we will see more evolve as time goes on.


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## WinS (Dec 9, 2021)

I asked about Blazer dining today. Blazers will be using the same downstairs room in the Valley House as they have the past few winters. Finalizing logistics of feeding them given the new set up.

FYI. When I first came to SB this was where the Wunderbar was located.


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## WinS (Dec 9, 2021)

Los said:


> There will be additional seating now in the bag room next to the cafeteria (currently being used for storage) - is what I’ve been told anyway. Unfortunately though, that means as far as bag areas go, only the two on the first floor of gate house and the one in the farmhouse remain. OTOH, people seem to have gotten used to booting at the car (good - more room for me to boot up comfortably inside).
> 
> And I believe the other room right off the cafeteria (opposite the old bag room), can’t remember what it’s called, will now be open for general seating - but I might have misunderstood.


I spent the last two days skiing at Stowe. Proof of full vaccination is required to enter all lodges. Then mask required unless eating or drinking. I booted up in the Mansfield Lodge and it was empty. Most seem to still be booting up in their cars. It will be interesting to see if this is the norm again and people feel safer outside. If so, the bag storage discussion will be irrelevant.


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## jaybird (Dec 9, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> If you notice there's a lot of portable K guns and Ratniks that run under the Superstar Nologics for the same reason. This is even more true as you get further up the mountain and lose pressure and throw. Honestly at some point Killington is gonna have to bite the several million dollar bullet and run some serious fan power up Superstar.


The mighty K3000 is still a significant weapon at K .. and likely will be well into the future. Hard to beat for rock hard base


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## IceEidolon (Dec 9, 2021)

They're actually very easy to beat for production per kW (so is any air water gun). More and more trails are going to see low E guns or fans added. Exactly when and which guns are up in the air, but if you need over a hundred thousand horsepower of compressed air to max out a 10,000 gpm pumping system in moderate temperatures... Better to relegate the old school to Plan B wherever possible. And that applies to the K3000 and any air hog at any resort.


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## snoloco (Dec 9, 2021)

Most resorts are trying to phase out the Ratniks and other air hogs where possible, but they can make better snow in marginal temps, so resorts still keep some for situations where they are needed.  Killington is different because they are trying to open first and hold a World Cup, and they need the air hogs to make that happen.  Most resorts don't need to be as aggressive that early, so they will mostly use low-E guns, as does Sugarbush.  It's really a no brainer when it comes down to the energy costs.


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2021)

WinS said:


> I asked about Blazer dining today. Blazers will be using the same downstairs room in the Valley House as they have the past few winters. Finalizing logistics of feeding them given the new set up.
> 
> FYI. When I first came to SB this was where the Wunderbar was located.


I remember having lunch in that old Wunderbar location.  We sat at the window looking out at the gondola cars.  The Mushroom bar was also there at that time.  Probably circa 1983.  Pretty cool memories.  I have always wished you guys renovated and reserected the mushroom bar and added a center fireplace.  That would have been easily the best apre bar in VT. IMO


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## jaybird (Dec 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I remember having lunch in that old Wunderbar location.  We sat at the window looking out at the gondola cars.  The Mushroom bar was also there at that time.  Probably circa 1983.  Pretty cool memories.  I have always wished you guys renovated and reserected the mushroom bar and added a center fireplace.  That would have been easily the best apre bar in VT. IMO


The obsession with mushrooms is somewhat troubling .. 
Sad but true .. best apres bars in VT are not, and have never been in Warren.


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## WinS (Dec 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I remember having lunch in that old Wunderbar location.  We sat at the window looking out at the gondola cars.  The Mushroom bar was also there at that time.  Probably circa 1983.  Pretty cool memories.  I have always wished you guys renovated and reserected the mushroom bar and added a center fireplace.  That would have been easily the best apre bar in VT. IMO


It was and could be a great location. Without getting into all the minutia, permitting for the base area lodges required eliminating the Mushroom and Wunderbar. Subsequent new wells and efficiency allowed more F&B back in the VH. When the new VH lift was out in mountain ops offices were removed and they moved into the old Mushroom space. The Wunderbar was restored in the top floor and the cafeteria reopened. The old Mushroom space works well for Mtn ops, but perhaps in the long range plans this could be brought back as you recommended. I really enjoyed having lunch there.


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## mrvpilgrim (Dec 10, 2021)

Looking at HGTV's web site The 2022 HGTV dream home give away house has been built in Warren
Watching the video tour I think i can see some trails it the distance
Does anyone have any intel on where the house was actually built


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## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2021)

Agreed, the mushroom was a great place for lunch with all the windows.


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 10, 2021)

mrvpilgrim said:


> Looking at HGTV's web site The 2022 HGTV dream home give away house has been built in Warren
> Watching the video tour I think i can see some trails it the distance
> Does anyone have any intel on where the house was actually built


I believe I read somewhere that its on West Hill Road - my best guess would be past the Inferno Rd split heading toward the Lincoln Gap Road - like around Sugarloaf Hill Road.


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## ducky (Dec 10, 2021)

Yes, West Hill Rd. Locals are pretty pissed they're building these things here when there is such a shortage of affordable housing. At least those are some of the FPF posts and Valley Reporter comments. Some have called for them to not Stowe-ify the MRV.

This rain event tomorrow looks less damaging than before. Turning to showers by 1:00. Let's hope.


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## cdskier (Dec 10, 2021)

ducky said:


> Yes, West Hill Rd. Locals are pretty pissed they're building these things here when there is such a shortage of affordable housing. At least those are some of the FPF posts and Valley Reporter comments. Some have called for them to not Stowe-ify the MRV.


One has nothing to do with the other. Hate to break it to those people...but a property like that had 0 chance of being ever turned into affordable housing. If HGTV didn't build there, it would have either stayed whatever it was before (I'm assuming an empty lot) or would have eventually been turned into a nice house by whoever eventually bought the property.

On the bright side...this property should now generate some nice property tax revenue for Warren...


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## djd66 (Dec 11, 2021)

Locals are pissed that a home was built on a vacant lot? Really? I suspect that is a very small percentage of locals.


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## ducky (Dec 11, 2021)

djd66 said:


> Locals are pissed that a home was built on a vacant lot? Really? I suspect that is a very small percentage of locals.


You'd be surprised. It's actually quite a large (and vocal)  movement from across socio-economic backgrounds (see front page of this week's VR). The other component is to create affordable child care and this is being done at Neck of the Woods.
The feeling is that HGTV would have got far more traction and good press (certainly amongst Vermonters) creating say 8-12 affordable units  on the lot vs one extravagant luxury home, and quite possibly higher profits. It may well have attracted national press. One Warren selectman, Bob Ackland, is spearheading the Warren contingent and would like to see housing developed in the West Hill Rd area near the mountain. AirBnB investment buyers have stripped the valley of long-term rentals and both Warren and Waitsfield trailer parks are full. Many hourly employees have to travel up to an hour to work here. This recent and crazy real estate spike has exacerbated the problem.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2021)

ducky said:


> You'd be surprised. It's actually quite a large (and vocal)  movement from across socio-economic backgrounds (see front page of this week's VR). The other component is to create affordable child care and this is being done at Neck of the Woods.
> The feeling is that HGTV would have got far more traction and good press (certainly amongst Vermonters) creating say 8-12 affordable units  on the lot vs one extravagant luxury home, and quite possibly higher profits. It may well have attracted national press. One Warren selectman, Bob Ackland, is spearheading the Warren contingent and would like to see housing developed in the West Hill Rd area near the mountain. AirBnB investment buyers have stripped the valley of long-term rentals and both Warren and Waitsfield trailer parks are full. Many hourly employees have to travel up to an hour to work here. This recent and crazy real estate spike has exacerbated the problem.



Nice thought, but when has HGTV ever built affordable housing for give aways?   Dream Home is a lottery show.  Lottery = luxury.  I don't disagree that them building and giving away affordable homes would generate great press.  But they also do just fine marketing to house wives watching the show with a dream.


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## 1dog (Dec 11, 2021)

ducky said:


> You'd be surprised. It's actually quite a large (and vocal)  movement from across socio-economic backgrounds (see front page of this week's VR). The other component is to create affordable child care and this is being done at Neck of the Woods.
> The feeling is that HGTV would have got far more traction and good press (certainly amongst Vermonters) creating say 8-12 affordable units  on the lot vs one extravagant luxury home, and quite possibly higher profits. It may well have attracted national press. One Warren selectman, Bob Ackland, is spearheading the Warren contingent and would like to see housing developed in the West Hill Rd area near the mountain. AirBnB investment buyers have stripped the valley of long-term rentals and both Warren and Waitsfield trailer parks are full. Many hourly employees have to travel up to an hour to work here. This recent and crazy real estate spike has exacerbated the problem.


When all is said and done, who actually pays for those affordable housing units - soon as I see that word, I assume it is subsidized and that means tax payer money and who pays into the funds that subsidize? Generally top 10% pay 90% of the Federal take on income taxes - we're all paying the freight on fuel, telecom and property tax. 



			https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200225110058/Summary-of-the-Latest-Federal-Income-Tax-Data-2020-Update.pdf
		


Its an evolution that has been slow and sure - Aspen - 1 hour plus commute for most workers - Park City happening now, Stowe not far behind.

How do you balance the growth of business ( if it isn't growing it's 'going' out) with crowd control?  Don't have the answers, except I'm sure it isn't Montpelier or Washington.

I wonder if 'Bush Inn was converted to employee housing how much they would lose? If that is the largest impediment to workforce, maybe subside housing and lower wages make up the difference.  Don't wanna end up like Wildcat or Attitash ( who I've heard from this forum have workforce issues) but have far more housing choices than MRV.


And lastly, the 'transient' inflation ( who here really believed that statement?) is the biggest tax on all - and the bottom 50% can ill afford more pressure on living expenses than existed before 2020.


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2021)

1dog said:


> I wonder if 'Bush Inn was converted to employee housing how much they would lose? If that is the largest impediment to workforce, maybe subside housing and lower wages make up the difference.



FWIW, according to an article in the Valley Reporter back in November, the Sugarbush Inn IS being used for employee housing this season (I'm thinking just part of it and not the whole thing...the quote in the article wasn't very specific on that part though so I could be wrong).


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2021)

1dog said:


> When all is said and done, who actually pays for those affordable housing units - soon as I see that word, I assume it is subsidized and that means tax payer money and who pays into the funds that subsidize? Generally top 10% pay 90% of the Federal take on income taxes - we're all paying the freight on fuel, telecom and property tax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not that I care one way or the other but if they are giving away affordable housing What would be subsidized? Then On the other hand if those “affordable” were resold would they be affordable still?


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> FWIW, according to an article in the Valley Reporter back in November, the Sugarbush Inn IS being used for employee housing this season (I'm thinking just part of it and not the whole thing...the quote in the article wasn't very specific on that part though so I could be wrong).


The entire Inn is being used for employee housing. Something we considered in the past but we’re able to rent enough seasonal not to have to do it.


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## Hawk (Dec 12, 2021)

Went to the wunderbar late yesterday afternoon.  I must have missed something.  It is actually in the valley house caffiteria and not in the original space that the Wunderbar was in down stair next to the bathrooms.  The blazers lunch room seems to still exist there.  I think it will work well with lots of seating and good views out the big windows.  Good selection of beer and nice people serving and a few TV's with ski movies on.  They need to do a little decorating.  it is a little generic looking but overall I think it will work.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 12, 2021)

1dog said:


> When all is said and done, who actually pays for those affordable housing units - soon as I see that word, I assume it is subsidized and that means tax payer money and who pays into the funds that subsidize? Generally top 10% pay 90% of the Federal take on income taxes - we're all paying the freight on fuel, telecom and property tax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a note on that link to the tax data.  It is solely looking federal income taxes, but that doesn’t include include payroll taxes, which are withheld from income.  all wage earners pay payroll taxes at equal rates up to a little over 100k.  these Taxes are in lieu of “income” taxes, so low wage earners don’t pay the “income“ tax because they’ve already paid it in the form of payroll taxes.


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## WinS (Dec 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Went to the wunderbar late yesterday afternoon.  I must have missed something.  It is actually in the valley house caffiteria and not in the original space that the Wunderbar was in down stair next to the bathrooms.  The blazers lunch room seems to still exist there.  I think it will work well with lots of seating and good views out the big windows.  Good selection of beer and nice people serving and a few TV's with ski movies on.  They need to do a little decorating.  it is a little generic looking but overall I think it will work.


The Wunderbar is now both levels. I believe both levels will be open weekends and Holidays And downstairs open Thursday and Friday. Tara behind the bar worked at Tracks at The Pitcher Inn for a few years and just returned to the Valley. She is a great addition.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2021)

WinS said:


> The entire Inn is being used for employee housing. Something we considered in the past but we’re able to rent enough seasonal not to have to do it.


Wow. That's pretty impressive.

Is Sugar Lodge now owned by Sugarbush? As I drove by this afternoon I noticed a sign saying Sugarbush Condo Rental check-ins were now there.


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## ducky (Dec 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Wow. That's pretty impressive.
> 
> Is Sugar Lodge now owned by Sugarbush? As I drove by this afternoon I noticed a sign saying Sugarbush Condo Rental check-ins were now there.


Yes, Sugar Lodge was bought by Sugarbush for guest rentals. SB Inn is now all employee housing.


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## jaybird (Dec 12, 2021)

Back on subject..
How many guns firing on Sigi's?
TIA

Think Snow .. maybe burn a pair of wood core


----------



## 1dog (Dec 13, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Just a note on that link to the tax data.  It is solely looking federal income taxes, but that doesn’t include include payroll taxes, which are withheld from income.  all wage earners pay payroll taxes at equal rates up to a little over 100k.  these Taxes are in lieu of “income” taxes, so low wage earners don’t pay the “income“ tax because they’ve already paid it in the form of payroll taxes.


I'm no CPA or tax expert ( yeah, yeah, take the shots! LOL) but payroll taxes are by definition supposed to be still our money for Supplemental Social Security payments back to us when we are over 62-70.5 ( depending on when you wanna start drawing it). There were never intended for anything else except that. 

Short history is it was proposed to be 1% then 'shut off' as the large sum of money would throw off cash from interest investments to pay out.

Started as somewhere between 11 and 22 'payers to takers' ratio. . . now it is 2.5 to 1. And of course its roughly 15%- half by employees and half by employer.

Congress ( who else?) voted to throw it in with the general. fund in the 80's and now its ion deep deficit, but not worse off than Medicare or even worse, Medicaid, all three which will break the country eventually.  Sorry about the tangent but point still stands: Its always best to have the money earned be controlled by the earner as opposed to central control.  We've rarely had and income problem as a country, as its always a spending problem. . . . . back to our show now. . .


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## 1dog (Dec 13, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Went to the wunderbar late yesterday afternoon.  I must have missed something.  It is actually in the valley house caffiteria and not in the original space that the Wunderbar was in down stair next to the bathrooms.  The blazers lunch room seems to still exist there.  I think it will work well with lots of seating and good views out the big windows.  Good selection of beer and nice people serving and a few TV's with ski movies on.  They need to do a little decorating.  it is a little generic looking but overall I think it will work.


so no more upstairs Wunderbar??That atmosphere and views is hard to replace.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 13, 2021)

jaybird said:


> Back on subject..
> How many guns firing on Sigi's?
> TIA
> 
> Think Snow .. maybe burn a pair of wood core


Looked like quite a few were setup and making snow (they were all off by this morning). The wind though looks like it was not too friendly to the snow-making attempts on Ripcord and it looks like maybe as much snow went on the trees behind the guns and in the woods as went on the trail itself. Wind was really howling last night at my condo.

Considering the weather and limitations of the SB snowmaking system, it is actually pretty impressive how much the snow-making and grooming teams were able to get open already. Some trails definitely seem thinner than they probably wanted them to be (i.e. Downspout), but at least they got them open.

Looked like they were working on some digging and pipe repair at the bottom of Lower Hotshot today where Sugarbear Road comes across.

Overall not too bad for my first day out today for the season.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Looked like quite a few were setup and making snow (they were all off by this morning). The wind though looks like it was not too friendly to the snow-making attempts on Ripcord and it looks like maybe as much snow went on the trees behind the guns and in the woods as went on the trail itself. Wind was really howling last night at my condo.
> 
> Considering the weather and limitations of the SB snowmaking system, it is actually pretty impressive how much the snow-making and grooming teams were able to get open already. Some trails definitely seem thinner than they probably wanted them to be (i.e. Downspout), but at least they got them open.
> 
> ...


Was there yesterday. They had every tower gun going and at least 7 or 8 ground guns on rip cord. Had 1 going at the intersection of organ grinder and death spout. Deathspout needs to be just about completely reblown. Mostly last pitch before bottom of heaven’s gate. Trail was like skiing on chocolate chip ice cream with freezer burn.


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## cdskier (Dec 13, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Was there yesterday. They had every tower gun going and at least 7 or 8 ground guns on rip cord. Had 1 going at the intersection of organ grinder and death spout. Deathspout needs to be just about completely reblown. Mostly last pitch before bottom of heaven’s gate. Trail was like skiing on chocolate chip ice cream with freezer burn.


I had a feeling there was one going at the intersection of OG and DS. The surface on skier's left exactly at that point felt like freshly frozen man-made snow...


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## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I had a feeling there was one going at the intersection of OG and DS. The surface on skier's left exactly at that point felt like freshly frozen man-made snow...


They had one down further one lower jester (maybe at the junction with lower organ grinder). Weird that it was just this lonely one going where there was lots of other thin to bare trail around it.


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## WinS (Dec 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> They had one down further one lower jester (maybe at the junction with lower organ grinder). Weird that it was just this lonely one going where there was lots of other thin to bare trail around it.


That was most likely the overflow for what was running up higher.


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## jaybird (Dec 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Was there yesterday. They had every tower gun going and at least 7 or 8 ground guns on rip cord. Had 1 going at the intersection of organ grinder and death spout. Deathspout needs to be just about completely reblown. Mostly last pitch before bottom of heaven’s gate. Trail was like skiing on chocolate chip ice cream with freezer burn.


Yeah .. snausages .. everywhere.
At least the snow makers had a good shingle slide run down Ripcord. Sad the groomers have such little to work with. 

Maybe next week. Keep hope alive.


----------



## slatham (Dec 14, 2021)

They will have an opportunity this afternoon through tomorrow am. Then the weekend with a pattern change. Finally. Hope it holds.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2021)

They were making snow today on DS on the last section between Paradise Extension and the HG chair loading area. They were also making snow on Ripcord and then turned the guns on Lower Ripcord on too as the morning went on.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They were making snow today on DS on the last section between Paradise Extension and the HG chair loading area. They were also making snow on Ripcord and then turned the guns on Lower Ripcord on too as the morning went on.


forecast improves once the ugliness of tomorrow passes.  maybe we can avoid the grinch this year for a change.


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 15, 2021)

Not sure if it will come to fruition or not, but it looks like there's some potential for snow Saturday evening and night.


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2021)

They had the tower guns going on DS overnight and were turning them off at open this morning. They were also shutting down the guns on Ripcord this morning. Production overnight looked pretty good, although it still looks like lower RC needs more snow-making time before they'll be able to open it. Upper RC looks much closer. They also pushed out at least the bottom part of lower OG, although I couldn't tell how high up they were able to push it out. The entrances off DS aren't pushed out and look like they need more snow (although it is hard to get a good view so I could easily be wrong).


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## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They had the tower guns going on DS overnight and were turning them off at open this morning. They were also shutting down the guns on Ripcord this morning. Production overnight looked pretty good, although it still looks like lower RC needs more snow-making time before they'll be able to open it. Upper RC looks much closer. They also pushed out at least the bottom part of lower OG, although I couldn't tell how high up they were able to push it out. The entrances off DS aren't pushed out and look like they need more snow (although it is hard to get a good view so I could easily be wrong).


Upper RC looked like it could have opened Sunday afternoon


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## keyser soze (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm not sure which trails the webcams are on, but it looked like a couple of trails had good cover, but there was no traffic on them so I assume they are not opened yet.


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2021)

keyser soze said:


> I'm not sure which trails the webcams are on, but it looked like a couple of trails had good cover, but there was no traffic on them so I assume they are not opened yet.


Which webcam(s)? Most trails visible on the webcams should be open...


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2021)

I think he's talking about upper rip chord.  If it is not open it is probably because it is thick and sticky.  The coverage is there.  it is listed as not open.


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I think he's talking about upper rip chord.  If it is not open it is probably because it is thick and sticky.  The coverage is there.  it is listed as not open.


I just went through the cams and agree that must be what he's talking about since it is visible from the HG Top webcam. Coverage on RC itself is there...but I'm not sure where you'd exit after RC. Lower RC still had a ways to go from what it looked like this morning. Paradise Extension looked pretty bare at the end by DS.


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## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I just went through the cams and agree that must be what he's talking about since it is visible from the HG Top webcam. Coverage on RC itself is there...but I'm not sure where you'd exit after RC. Lower RC still had a ways to go from what it looked like this morning. Paradise Extension looked pretty bare at the end by DS.


Couple of weeks ago I was exiting where spillsville and ripcord join


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Couple of weeks ago I was exiting where spillsville and ripcord join


That would be Paradise Extension...which was open for a bit when RC and Spillsville were both open on natural snow. I didn't see anything in person until after last weekend's warmth and rain, but it looks like that weather last Saturday wiped out that option until more snow falls.

There's another "path" that cuts off Spillsville close to the bottom but above Paradise Extension that goes over to OG. It is usually roped off, but I have seen it used once in a while early season to give a route off SV/RC. I don't recall looking at how much snow was on that route on any of my trips up HG this week though.


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## shadyjay (Dec 15, 2021)

That would be Route 21.... or is it Route 22.


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## tumbler (Dec 16, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> That would be Route 21.... or is it Route 22.


22


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2021)

Yup...I knew it was "Route" something...but always forget the number.


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## Hawk (Dec 16, 2021)

Sugarbash this Friday from 6 to 9 in the Castlerock?  No Grift it seems either.  Kind of depressing.   Most of the regular people will not be able to attend.  Must be a covid thing so keep the numbers down.


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2021)

From the webcam, looks like they opened Ripcord. The trail report doesn't say anything yet and I didn't feel like going out today, so just going off webcams. I just saw someone come out Lower RC by the bottom of the HG chair, so guess they did have enough cover to open that too.


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2021)

Looks like ME will have 1 route open tomorrow off GMX and that's it (Northstar to Mainstream to Straight Shot). I was thinking of hitting opening day there, but I don't really think that is worth it. I'm better off just sticking with a few runs at LP in the morning before heading home.


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## STREETSKIER (Dec 16, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> That would be Route 21.... or is it Route 22.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 16, 2021)

Weekend looks promising...


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## cdskier (Dec 16, 2021)

The snow report was updated sometime this evening/tonight to say that ME's opening has now been pushed back to Saturday.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 16, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Sugarbash this Friday from 6 to 9 in the Castlerock?  No Grift it seems either.  Kind of depressing.   Most of the regular people will not be able to attend.  Must be a covid thing so keep the numbers down


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 16, 2021)

Today was wicked good fun! Not the usual fun for this particular day, but still big time fun!


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 16, 2021)

Hopefully is warm enough tomorrow, had the usual lake at top of stairs heading to bravo. Felt like April


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## WinS (Dec 17, 2021)

route 22


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## cdskier (Dec 17, 2021)

Damn they lost a pretty decent amount of snow yesterday/last night. DS has a couple sections that are now only about half the trail width wide. Lower Ripcord has numerous large bare spots now too between the snowmaking piles.


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## shipyardcreek (Dec 17, 2021)

WinS said:


> route 22


My understanding is that Rt. 21 and 22 are on skier's right off of OG and not off the bottom of Spills. Rt. 21 was near unskiable last year because of deadfall and the odd dead tree. A little rearrangement of this debris would go a long way.


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 17, 2021)

Stopped by Mt Ellen today - opening day postponed (rumor is they were waiting on a part for GMX and were working on it when I was there). I must say I was very impressed with the modest facelift given to the base lodge in consortium with the VT Adaptive addition. The main floor seems so much more spacious and open (no more stairs downstairs when you first walk in).  There are bathrooms on all levels and a enormous new deck off of the GML.  Also amazing what new carpet and a fresh coat of paint will do too.  Still work to be done (brand new picture windows still to go in).  

Overall, the charm is still there - just freshened up a bit. Bravo!


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 17, 2021)

Happy holidays from us to you! Please note all ornaments in the trees were filled with bourbon or heady topper. Today was a one run day…


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## Hawk (Dec 18, 2021)

Too funny and also Awesome.  I recognize a bunch of your people.  Happy Holidays to you also.


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## tumbler (Dec 18, 2021)

Tough day out there today. Snowmaking (irrigating) downspout was awful. It wasn’t crazy crowded but that trail is bad enough with out daytime Saturday snowmaking. What happened to the towers on that trail? Also you can tell what a difference the HKD equipment is over the snow logic guns.  Snow tonight should help, please.


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## shadyjay (Dec 18, 2021)

Ahhh... the saga of towers on Downspout.  The problem was due to the nature of the trail (pitch, grooming, where the snow gets plowed by skiers), it buried the tower bases.  A few years back, my crew and I spent all night digging out 4 towers.  Sure, you could put them on higher bases, but you'd need ladders to get up to them to connect hoses, spin the tower, etc.  Some already were nearly 4' high before we start making snow.  

The decision was made to remove/relocate the towers to other trails and to install land guns.  Since Downspout is a critical trail, and the wind is never perfect on that trail, land guns make more sense.  They can be pulled way out early season in order to get skier's right, or can be aimed up/down hill to work with the wind.  Most of the hydrants on Downspout are in large culverts which protects them from the pushing/moving of snow.  The use of land guns also means a more even distrubution of man-made snow across the trail.  Often with the towers, the left side of the trail would be buried, but the right side would have much less base.

Early season, it did make more work for us with land guns (Snow Logics, as the days of Ratniks had long come and gone unfortunately), but it did save us from having to dig 4' down through every layer of snow known to man.  Towers I believe still survive down to OG flats, but were removed below there.

HKD vs Logic... there are things that can go wrong with either, but personally I always thought the HKDs produce better snow.  Maybe because I'm more accustomed to the HKD towers.  The logics are more susceptible to having their "nukes" not work.  If that occurs... you're not getting the air/water mixture critical to making snow.


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## WinS (Dec 18, 2021)

Shady knows what he is talking about. Hope you see you this winter!


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## shadyjay (Dec 18, 2021)

WinS said:


> Shady knows what he is talking about. Hope you see you this winter!


Thanks, Win!  Hope to come up for a few days in Jan.  Happy Holidays to you, your fam, and the community!


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## Hawk (Dec 20, 2021)

Skiing this weekend was fun.  Saturday was a little techical but the new snow made Sunday morning nice.  Early ups Sunday was a blast.  Good to see all the usual people.  Where were you Win! 

We even went to visit Henri and Bernard.  Awsome as usual.  They are understaffed and need help.  Hopefully they find some people to fill in as runners and servers.


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## cdskier (Dec 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Skiing this weekend was fun.  Saturday was a little techical but the new snow made Sunday morning nice.  Early ups Sunday was a blast.  Good to see all the usual people.  Where were you Win!


Maybe Win is sticking to mid-week skiing now that he's retired!   I did run into him on the hill last week one day (Tuesday maybe it was?) and we had a nice chat for a few minutes.


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## pinnoke (Dec 20, 2021)

Look who I found at Solitude today (while looking to say hello to Amber)!


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Maybe Win is sticking to mid-week skiing now that he's retired!   I did run into him on the hill last week one day (Tuesday maybe it was?) and we had a nice chat for a few minutes.


Did an early Xmas in CT with kids and grandchildren, so did not get back until late Sunday. So did some nice early Monday.


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## bumpcrasher (Dec 21, 2021)

Beautiful snowmaking on Ripcord the past few days, yet any knowledge of what is going on at Mt Ellen??   Only 1 true run off GMX.   Nothing open for the Summit Quad or NorthRidge, nor are they making any snow on the main mountain.  Looks like none of the normal early season trails like Rim Run/Elbow will be open to at least spread out the masses.


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> View attachment 52451
> Look who I found at Solitude today (while looking to say hello to Amber)!





bumpcrasher said:


> Beautiful snowmaking on Ripcord the past few days, yet any knowledge of what is going on at Mt Ellen??   Only 1 true run off GMX.   Nothing open for the Summit Quad or NorthRidge, nor are they making any snow on the main mountain.  Looks like none of the normal early season trails like Rim Run/Elbow will be open to at least spread out the masses.


A lot of effort was placed on Inverness to get it ready for racing. It is 25 acres and takes nearly 10 million gallons of water. The next focus was getting Northstar, Mainstream and Straight Shot when the temps were good down low so there was a easy way to the gas from the top of GMX. They did have a break on Elbow which needed repair. As I understand it the focus is now on Crackerjack so there is a second route to the base and Inverness to get the park open. Not everyone will like that but it does get a lot of people over to Riemergasse. I think they plan to blow on Which Way too which comes in faster than Cruisier. After that I would guess the focus be be up top on Rim Run and Elbow. Not ideal but the temperatures have been challenging and the last rain and warm-up,caused the need to resurface a lot. I do see on the snow report that Inverness opens to the public at 11:30am today after GMVS is finished training.

Pinnoke, great you saw Gerry and hope to got to see Amber too.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2021)

They need to do a slightly better job updating the snow report. The text part of the report says they've been making snow on 7 trails including Riemergasse, yet I can only find 2 trails with the snowmaking symbol next to them in the report (DS and Crackerjack).


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They need to do a slightly better job updating the snow report. The text part of the report says they've been making snow on 7 trails including Riemergasse, yet I can only find 2 trails with the snowmaking symbol next to them in the report (DS and Crackerjack).


Was actually about say the same thing.  Snow report needs a bit of work. The text itself is basically a copy/paste job everyday and doesn't have any real information. 

And not to continue to crap on the app but I'm pretty much done with it for now.  Just thinking about this from a visitors perspective, just clunky and confusing.  Webcams are easier to access on the YouTube app and I've just bookmarked the conditions page on my phone.  The open trails section on the app doesn't include icons to see where they are making snow / been groomed and still doesn't differentiate between Mt Ellen and Lincoln Peak.  The lift section section doesn't include operating hours like the website does. 

The forecast section is also worthless.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Was actually about say the same thing.  Snow report needs a bit of work. The text itself is basically a copy/paste job everyday and doesn't have any real information.
> 
> And not to continue to crap on the app but I'm pretty much done with it for now.  Just thinking about this from a visitors perspective, just clunky and confusing.  Webcams are easier to access on the YouTube app and I've just bookmarked the conditions page on my phone.  The open trails section on the app doesn't include icons to see where they are making snow / been groomed and still doesn't differentiate between Mt Ellen and Lincoln Peak.  The lift section section doesn't include operating hours like the website does.
> 
> The forecast section is also worthless.


I'd agree pretty much 100% with all of this. I'd also add that it is still incredibly annoying to have to click "Read more" to see the full text blurb on the website. There's more than enough room on the snow report webpage to have a text block dedicated to the blurb that doesn't requiring an extra click to see the whole thing. I just don't understand the obsession by whoever Alterra hired to design this template with requiring so many extra clicks to see info that could easily be on 1 page with no additional clicks. Just a poor design that makes little sense.


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Was actually about say the same thing.  Snow report needs a bit of work. The text itself is basically a copy/paste job everyday and doesn't have any real information.
> 
> And not to continue to crap on the app but I'm pretty much done with it for now.  Just thinking about this from a visitors perspective, just clunky and confusing.  Webcams are easier to access on the YouTube app and I've just bookmarked the conditions page on my phone.  The open trails section on the app doesn't include icons to see where they are making snow / been groomed and still doesn't differentiate between Mt Ellen and Lincoln Peak.  The lift section section doesn't include operating hours like the website does.
> 
> The forecast section is also worthless.


I brought the snowmaking reporting  to their attention today. For the past few years Sugarbush used a third party app that was customized to some degree for Sugarbush, but it had limitations. Alterra decided to create their own App but to allow flexibility at the Rescort level. Unfortunately, as I understand it, there is not the flexibility one would want. It was rolled out just before the season began so not an opportunity to do many changes yet.  That snow forecast is a case in point. I know they are trying to get some of this issues fixed but it is not in their control. I have been figuring out better ways to get the info I want but it is not as easy as it should be. For instance finding temperatures at the different levels requires going to the home page and then the info icon and then “snow report on the website”. Then hit down arrow on “Today” to get temps at base, mid, summit.  Hopefully, the fixes can be made sooner rather than later.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2021)

WinS said:


> I brought the snowmaking reporting  to their attention today. For the past few years Sugarbush used a third party app that was customized to some degree for Sugarbush, but it had limitations. Alterra decided to create their own App but to allow flexibility at the Rescort level. Unfortunately, as I understand it, there is not the flexibility one would want. It was rolled out just before the season began so not an opportunity to do many changes yet.  That snow forecast is a case in point. I know they are trying to get some of this issues fixed but it is not in their control. I have been figuring out better ways to get the info I want but it is not as easy as it should be. For instance finding temperatures at the different levels requires going to the home page and then the info icon and then “snow report on the website”. Then hit down arrow on “Today” to get temps at base, mid, summit.  Hopefully, the fixes can be made sooner rather than later.


So I think the one thing that I have seen consistently about Vail and Alterra is the complaint that snow reporting is not done well. If you look in the “Vail sucks” thread you’ll see people consistently saying that there is not enough information. I understand that the companies want to streamline things but that is one area that is important to the more serious skiers and riders.

It has been 10 years for me, but one of the things that Sugarbush used to do very well under your ownership was snow reporting.


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## tumbler (Dec 21, 2021)

Trying to figure out where they moved the snowmaking to from Ripcord.  Looks like DS is still on.  Hopefully they are not wasting the good temps.  And I'm sorry but making snow on Crackerjack is a joke, the trail is flat from slidebrook to the top of Sunny Q.  The park has it's own lift.  Sad that Northstar>Mainstream>SS (with a park) is the only thing open there.


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## The Poacher (Dec 21, 2021)

I am also curious about the snowmaking. They are not mentioning it on the trail report, I don't see it on any Webcam and I don't see any signs of it from the gf course view. And yes, the snowmaking they've done on north makes no sense to me.


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## Hawk (Dec 21, 2021)

1st post from the poacher.  Welcome.  With a name like that I am not showing you anything.  LOL   JK


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## The Poacher (Dec 21, 2021)

Hahaha, I've actually been on here for years and skimrv prior to that. Normally I just pop in and read.  Haven't posted in long time, not sure why it said new. My family will be up next week for roughly our 30th Xmas week in the valley. Can't wait! Say hi if you see us


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> I am also curious about the snowmaking. They are not mentioning it on the trail report, I don't see it on any Webcam and I don't see any signs of it from the gf course view. And yes, the snowmaking they've done on north makes no sense to me.


The only thing I would say in their defense is that the temps at lower elevations in particular seem a bit marginal at the moment (if the website readings are accurate). They're starting to drop a bit now, but earlier when I looked it was 28 at the mid and around 30-32 at the base. Not exactly good for snow-making on most of the trails left at LP...


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## The Poacher (Dec 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The only thing I would say in their defense is that the temps at lower elevations in particular seem a bit marginal at the moment (if the website readings are accurate). They're starting to drop a bit now, but earlier when I looked it was 28 at the mid and around 30-32 at the base. Not exactly good for snow-making on most of the trails left at LP...


Good point. I do see guns on now.


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## WinS (Dec 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The only thing I would say in their defense is that the temps at lower elevations in particular seem a bit marginal at the moment (if the website readings are accurate). They're starting to drop a bit now, but earlier when I looked it was 28 at the mid and around 30-32 at the base. Not exactly good for snow-making on most of the trails left at LP...


I was out today. Very marginal temperatures so not great production until later this evening. They were half-curtailed yesterday which cut into production. Guns still on  DS. Still quite gravelly on lower portion so need to keep going. Guns running on middle jester and upper part of Lower Organgrinder. Organgrinder and SB Spring Fling were nicely groomed when I was on first  thing.


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## jaybird (Dec 21, 2021)

Ripcord tower line was sweet today, eh?
Paradise extension .. not so much.

Curious, has that rock pile on lower Steins been there all along?  Dont recall it being as pronounced .. but such little snow does bring certain 'features' into sharper focus ..


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## dustyroads (Dec 22, 2021)

WinS said:


> I brought the snowmaking reporting  to their attention today. For the past few years Sugarbush used a third party app that was customized to some degree for Sugarbush, but it had limitations. Alterra decided to create their own App but to allow flexibility at the Rescort level. Unfortunately, as I understand it, there is not the flexibility one would want. It was rolled out just before the season began so not an opportunity to do many changes yet.  That snow forecast is a case in point. I know they are trying to get some of this issues fixed but it is not in their control. I have been figuring out better ways to get the info I want but it is not as easy as it should be. For instance finding temperatures at the different levels requires going to the home page and then the info icon and then “snow report on the website”. Then hit down arrow on “Today” to get temps at base, mid, summit.  Hopefully, the fixes can be made sooner rather than later.



Plus, I noticed the app won't download to a slightly older iPad.


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## Hawk (Dec 22, 2021)

Always been there.  I hit it last year early when Steins was just natural snow before they blew it and blew out an edge on my old skis.  I was also checking that out last weekend and commented about that.


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## pinnoke (Dec 22, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So I think the one thing that I have seen consistently about Vail and Alterra is the complaint that snow reporting is not done well. If you look in the “Vail sucks” thread you’ll see people consistently saying that there is not enough information. I understand that the companies want to streamline things but that is one area that is important to the more serious skiers and riders.
> 
> It has been 10 years for me, but one of the things that Sugarbush used to do very well under your ownership was snow reporting.


And, if you'd like TMI, then I could be coaxed out of Sugarbush snow reporting retirement! What a wonderful 4 seasons I enjoyed in that chair and on my skis (minus the ACL year), when a snow reporter was given the freedom to give a first-hand report. Win only had to call me a FEW times (to tell me there was more new snow than I might have recorded)!


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2021)

pinnoke said:


> And, if you'd like TMI, then I could be coaxed out of Sugarbush snow reporting retirement! What a wonderful 4 seasons I enjoyed in that chair and on my skis (minus the ACL year), when a snow reporter was given the freedom to give a first-hand report. Win only had to call me a FEW times (to tell me there was more new snow than I might have recorded)!


Your reports were always the absolute best!


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## jaybird (Dec 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Always been there.  I hit it last year early when Steins was just natural snow before they blew it and blew out an edge on my old skis.  I was also checking that out last weekend and commented about that.


Can picture the blowout .. not surprising.
Small bobcat could easily dislodge the boulder cap on that motha'.

Gonna be awhile til THAT gets covered.
Stay vigilant


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2021)

Pretty cool looking at the webcam at the top of HG tonight and seeing the groomer winch RC for the first time of the season.


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## WinS (Dec 23, 2021)

Dan Paquette was probably the one in the winch. He has been grooming here over 30 years. (I think 35). And he loves to ski in the morning what he groomed overnight.


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## Blurski (Dec 23, 2021)

Another feature gone from the app I found real useful was the trail map that highlighted what trails are open, groomed, even think it had a snow making symbol, also noted open lifts. One click and you got the big picture.


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## The Poacher (Dec 23, 2021)

Interactive trail maps are very useful, seems many have gone away from. Killington still uses it. I find more disturbing the snow report which says, we are making snow on select areas. Worst reporting I've seen done. The whole snow/trail report is useless. Also seems very strange there has been no trail expansion while every other resort is expanding daily.


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## Hawk (Dec 23, 2021)

Poacher it is what it is here at Suarbush for snow making.  Plain and simple.  They can do one loop of piping at a time and no more.  They don't have multiple sets of guns and hoses or capacity.  So with the small water and air capacity, they slowly blow the route they set up until there is ample depth, Break down everything, move it to the new location, Set up and blow again.  Win has said in the past the Altura has plans to upgrade the system but that will take time.  

As for the app, this is what everybody is looking for.  When people show up they want an accurate resource that simply shows what trails were groomed, where snow was blown and what's open.  Also they want easy access to see the cams so they can avoid lines.  The old app was not perfect but at lease it was way easier to see this data.  I think the developer of this new app initially missed the mark but they have made some tweeks and it is getting better.  The missing part is to get Carly sinc-ed up with the app with the most up to date report.  How much snow, what trails were groomed, where the snowmaking is and where the snowmaking is going next should be updated by 7am each day so it is completely and thoroughly accurate.


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Poacher it is what it is here at Suarbush for snow making.  Plain and simple.  They can do one loop of piping at a time and no more.  They don't have multiple sets of guns and hoses or capacity.  So with the small water and air capacity, they slowly blow the route they set up until there is ample depth, Break down everything, move it to the new location, Set up and blow again.  Win has said in the past the Altura has plans to upgrade the system but that will take time.
> 
> As for the app, this is what everybody is looking for.  When people show up they want an accurate resource that simply shows what trails were groomed, where snow was blown and what's open.  Also they want easy access to see the cams so they can avoid lines.  The old app was not perfect but at lease it was way easier to see this data.  I think the developer of this new app initially missed the mark but they have made some tweeks and it is getting better.  The missing part is to get Carly sinc-ed up with the app with the most up to date report.  How much snow, what trails were groomed, where the snowmaking is and where the snowmaking is going next should be updated by 7am each day so it is completely and thoroughly accurate.


Well said Hawk...

To add from a snow-making perspective, they DID expand terrain recently. Ripcord only came online this week. That took a lot of snow. Then they also had to add substantial depth/cover to DS (it definitely needed it especially going into a holiday period). Knowing the limitations of the current capacity, it should be no surprise to anyone that they didn't expand much more beyond that. I really can't complain about the snow-making plans at LP at all so far.

ME on the other hand is a different story. Very much a shame that there's no route above GMX open over there yet. There were certainly windows with cold temps up high where you didn't have them down low that should have allowed you to cover something up there. I know it was mentioned a pipe broke and had to be fixed...but still disappointing that ME is so limited for now.


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## The Poacher (Dec 23, 2021)

Yes, I'm well aware of the limitations of the snowmaking at Sugarbush and have been ok with it.  I suppose I'm more disappointed in what they are focusing on and lack of updates. Every other mountain is trying to get people excited, talking about where they blowing and whats opening next. As far as i can tell, they just keep blowing crackerjack. Also, if you position yourself as now the most expensive mountain in the east, with that comes expectations. That being said, I still think it's the best ski mountain east of the Mississippi.


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## TSQURD (Dec 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I know it was mentioned a pipe broke and had to be fixed...



Was talking to a snowmaker as they were shutting down DS yesterday.  He said it wasnt just one pipe.


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## machski (Dec 23, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> Yes, I'm well aware of the limitations of the snowmaking at Sugarbush and have been ok with it.  I suppose I'm more disappointed in what they are focusing on and lack of updates. Every other mountain is trying to get people excited, talking about where they blowing and whats opening next. As far as i can tell, they just keep blowing crackerjack. Also, if you position yourself as now the most expensive mountain in the east, with that comes expectations. That being said, I still think it's the best ski mountain east of the Mississippi.


Every other mountain is talking that way?  You must be excluding ALL Vail properties then....


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> Yes, I'm well aware of the limitations of the snowmaking at Sugarbush and have been ok with it.  I suppose I'm more disappointed in what they are focusing on and lack of updates. Every other mountain is trying to get people excited, talking about where they blowing and whats opening next. As far as i can tell, they just keep blowing crackerjack.


Crackerjack and Riemergasse at ME. Between those 2 you're probably pretty close to maxing out the system over there. Maybe with the way the snow-making pumps/system is setup, it just is easier to blow Crackerjack at the same time as Riemergasse. Or maybe if you're running water to the terrain park, you don't even have enough capacity to pump water to some other section of the mountain.



TSQURD said:


> Was talking to a snowmaker as they were shutting down DS yesterday.  He said it wasnt just one pipe.


Ouch...that's tough if true and would certainly explain it a bit better than a single pipe.


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## The Poacher (Dec 23, 2021)

machski said:


> Every other mountain is talking that way?  You must be excluding ALL Vail properties then....


It's OK if I think the reporting is not great. But yes, even vail resorts talk it up much better.  Below is okemo today. Guys I love Sugarbush, but the approach does seem a bit off right now. The old snow reports were the best. If the multiple broken pipes is true, why not share that with us? Seems like a good idea

*Trails to look forwards to in the future:*

A few trails that Snowmaking worked on last night are Moment’s Rest, Sprint, Lower Rim Rock and Sidewinder. Thanks to our hard working Snowmaking Team we hope to add these trails in the near future.


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> It's OK if I think the reporting is not great. But yes, even vail resorts talk it up much better.  Below is okemo today. Guys I love Sugarbush, but the approach does seem a bit off right now. The old snow reports were the best. If the multiple broken pipes is true, why not share that with us? Seems like a good idea



Yea...that's a tricky situation. I like transparency myself (even if it is bad news), but can also understand not exactly wanting to advertise that you had multiple broken pipes that prevented you from making snow on upper ME terrain (assuming that is true). I do recall a couple years ago when the pipe on Ripcord blew and required an excavator to repair that they mentioned it in the report. So there is a bit of precedent for doing that though. (Although that was also a very visible issue that would have been difficult to hide/ignore)


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## HowieT2 (Dec 23, 2021)

I hope there's more trails coming online this weekend.  heading up tomorrow for my first turns of the season.


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## tumbler (Dec 23, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I hope there's more trails coming online this weekend.  heading up tomorrow for my first turns of the season.


Fingers crossed for Crackerjack...


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## WinS (Dec 24, 2021)

Just a bit of clarification on snowmaking capacity. The limitation is not the amount of gear (guns, hoses).it is actually the volume of water that can pass through the existing snowmaking pipes. At LP that is around 4,000 gallons per minute and an ME it is now close to 3,000. At LP is it possible to charge more than one line. For instance, guns could run on Sleeper and Lower Organgrinder simultaneously. But one thing to keep in mind is not to spread the Snowmakers too thin so they can not stay on top of it. Conditions can change quickly and they need to be able to respond. Sugarbush uses both towers and land guns. Towers, especially those that have HKD SV-10’s, turn out great snow on trails like Upper Ripcord, Snowball and Spring Fling. But many of our trails are too narrow or under lifts and have to use land guns. They are more labor intensive. You will notice that Snowmakers anticipate where snow will next be made and will move equipment in anticipation of that. They were doing that yesterday getting ready to blow on Sleeper. Some additional  land guns might help a bit but the real need is larger arteries which is what my long-term plan was and I would imagine what Alterra will support too. That is a multi-year permitting and construction process and very expensive. The problem with trail expansion has been the need to go back and start almost from scratch after the few warm and rain events we have experienced, Downspout was almost down to gravel after the last one. Sugsrbush was not alone in needing to do this.

The plan at ME is a judgment call, and I said I would not give opinions but just try to clarify based on my experience. Here is the thinking I believe. The Christmas Holiday crowd is largely beginner/intermediate skiers who often ski once or twice a year. Having two easy trails to the base is preferable than having everyone going down Straight Shot Which can turn into a luge run after a few hours. While  snow was being made on Crackerjack, the guns were also on at Riemergasse (yes, the snow report was not showing that until yesterday). I believe the park is viewed as too as a Holiday priority as it also allows another lift and keeps a lot of skiers and riders in the park instead of on other trails. The park requires a lot of snow to construct the hits. The pipe break on Elbow hurt because there were days when only snowmaking at higher elevations was possible. The snow report now shows Which Way is opening today (snowmaking on it was not shown on the snow report).

If you got out yesterday, you would have experienced a very different DS. Nice dry snowmaking with the trail much better covered. ( it was an ideal night for snowmaking). The first groom on Ripcord was great and should be even better this morning. Dan did the initial groom on the first shift and Warren finished on the second. Dan texted me in the am to say GPS showed depth of 6-10’ across Ripcord as he groomed the whales out. They started with depth in the middle teens up top.

Now we will have to wait and see what this next weather events brings. I don’t think we will lose snow, but we could see some freezing rain Go make things slick. Hopefully it will end with some inches of snow.

ps: last Christmas it was 65 in Burlington so things are better this year.


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## Hawk (Dec 24, 2021)

machski said:


> Every other mountain is talking that way?  You must be excluding ALL Vail properties then....


Sunday River is certainly kicking ass and taking names.  You guys have routes down every peak this weekend with over 50 trails.  This at a mountain that is 1000 feet shorter.  If Sugarbush had 1/2 that capacity we would be killing it right now.  And the head lines on the website front page always say what is opening next.  I am not sure how many here have skied so far this year but I am worried about how many will show this year.  You can feel the pulse.  It is different.  Very shortly we will need more terrain or it will be chaos.


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## shadyjay (Dec 24, 2021)

Spreading yourself thin is something you do not want to do when it comes to snowmaking.  As Win said, things can turn bad really quickly... especially with wind changes and working around lift lines.  If they're making on Sleeper, that means they're probably also hitting (at least) the upper half of Hot Shot.  Hot Shot itself requires 40 land guns (from top of GH down to Sugarbear Rd) on a lift line so that requires a lot of maintenance right there.  Getting trails like Birdland/Murphy's online I would think would be next, as it helps to spread out the crowds off the top of Bravo.  They're both "main mtn" supply trails so you don't have to charge those lines like you do with routes off Spring Fling.  Charging the lines takes water away from other guns too so that reduces your capacity.  We all know Sleeper is one of the busiest trails on the mtn... all the kids love it, so getting it open ASAP is a big plus.


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## mikec142 (Dec 24, 2021)

First day out today.  A couple of thoughts.  First, I am rusty and out of shape.  Second, oddly enough Downspout to lower DS to lower jester to gondolier was my favorite run today.  Even the upper part of  downspout to HG was chalky and edgeable. Snowball to Spring Fling was a mixed bag. I went from loose edgeable  snow to boilerplate and back.  Made for some tougher skiing.  We didn’t ride up HG.  Don’t know why.

Skiing again tomorrow and praying for an all snow event.  I’m an ikon pass holder but I bought multi day tix for my two kids and would hate to waste them.  They are for tmrw and Sunday.


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## machski (Dec 24, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Sunday River is certainly kicking ass and taking names.  You guys have routes down every peak this weekend with over 50 trails.  This at a mountain that is 1000 feet shorter.  If Sugarbush had 1/2 that capacity we would be killing it right now.  And the head lines on the website front page always say what is opening next.  I am not sure how many here have skied so far this year but I am worried about how many will show this year.  You can feel the pulse.  It is different.  Very shortly we will need more terrain or it will be chaos.


Yup, they are doing great at both making and expanding and keeping everyone informed of the plans.  We have Epic locals this year too, and Vail is horrible at communications (though Crotched just bucked that trend) and not great at expanding out.  Sugarbush probably lands in between but far better than Vail stuff.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 25, 2021)

TSQURD said:


> Was talking to a snowmaker as they were shutting down DS yesterday.  He said it wasnt just one pipe.


Heard that upper mountain snow making at Mt Ellen is not so much an issue with pipes but the lack of ability to have lift access if the terrain was open.   Riemergasse is still likely a week away from opening .


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## mikec142 (Dec 25, 2021)

This was from a text I sent to a friend this AM.

Got on Interstate 89 from Burlington towards Sugarbush in a light rain.  After about two exits felt the car slide just slightly (thought I was imagining things).  Then noticed the car ahead of me fishtailing all over the road.  Started to fishtail a bit.  Managed to get it under control (as did the car in front of me).  Passed a couple of cars  in the ditch on the side of the road.  Made the executive decision to turn around.  SB crediting the kids lift tix to a future day (very appreciative of their generosity) Apparently that light rain is freezing rain.  Car is totally crusted over.  It’s about an hour later and I think my heart rate has normalized.  FYI…I have snow tires on my car.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2021)

Going to be a sporty drive tomorrow.....crap...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 25, 2021)

Driving tomorrow will be fine. Today isn’t. They closed a huge stretch of 91 this morning.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2021)

Hope so..ive done some sliding around up there when its like this....worried about my wife..she hasnt done much driving lately..we have snow tires though...
Moving in the winter was not in the plan


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## ThatGuy (Dec 25, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hope so..ive done some sliding around up there when its like this....worried about my wife..she hasnt done much driving lately..we have snow tires though...
> Moving in the winter was not in the plan


Stay safe out there MrSlug winter moves are definitely no fun


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## Smellytele (Dec 25, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hope so..ive done some sliding around up there when its like this....worried about my wife..she hasnt done much driving lately..we have snow tires though...
> Moving in the winter was not in the plan


Snow tires on ice don’t help that much


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## Newpylong (Dec 25, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Sunday River is certainly kicking ass and taking names.  You guys have routes down every peak this weekend with over 50 trails.  This at a mountain that is 1000 feet shorter.  If Sugarbush had 1/2 that capacity we would be killing it right now.  And the head lines on the website front page always say what is opening next.  I am not sure how many here have skied so far this year but I am worried about how many will show this year.  You can feel the pulse.  It is different.  Very shortly we will need more terrain or it will be chaos.



Unless things have changed recently they have a ways to go. Lincoln is roughly 3500 GPM / 16000 CFM and the Ellen side (2800 GPM / 12000 CFM) is a little weird with the split system (smaller pumps only on Inverness and the rest for the balance of the mountain.) In general, both of those systems are very undersized per skiable acre.

I haven't been a Sugarbush regular since I was in the valley from 95 to 99 but I can tell you that ASC blew the snot out of both sides. They also covered Exterminator in lean years (we actually used to train GS on it sometimes). They had supplemental diesel to get around the curtailment that shut those Centacs down now. They used the SR7s and Rats to handle the marginal (when the Snow Logics can't run now.)  It seems like they're now dealing with all of that cheap steel that ASC put in from the sounds of it. Obviously not an apples to apples comparison as energy costs have skyrocketed since that era, but just to provide some historical info.

I think Win's plan (and Alterra's if they do it) to upgrade the uplines on the water distribution side will probably have the most positive effect. Your uplines need to be of a sufficient diameter to handle the volume (and reduce friction loss) to be able to split and feed your smaller feeds on multiple trails. Then you need to be able to supply those feeds with adequate water. May be an issue bringing more up from the Mad River pond and the Brook weir at Ellen?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Snow tires on ice don’t help that much


They are stickier..ive had them for 3 seasons and feel they are far superior to all season.
I worry more about the other cars sliding around.  Lot of crazy drivers out there..


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## Smellytele (Dec 25, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> They are stickier..ive had them for 3 seasons and feel they are far superior to all season.
> I worry more about the other cars sliding around.  Lot of crazy drivers out there..


They are superior in snow but ice is ice and unless studded then no matter what tires you have they won’t help.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 25, 2021)

Any tips on which trails will be the best tomorrow? I am skiing solo while Mr. Snowflake teaches (first day). I usually stick to single diamonds or easier. I also wouldn’t mind meeting up to make a few turns if anyone is around.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 25, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hope so..ive done some sliding around up there when its like this....worried about my wife..she hasnt done much driving lately..we have snow tires though...
> Moving in the winter was not in the plan


I’ve moved twice during the winter (last two moves actually).  We were pretty lucky.  After the last move we got two huge snowstorms so I learned that a snowblower was a must!


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2021)

We sold our house so quick we had to buy another one..we had planned on doing all this in the spring.


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## ss20 (Dec 26, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> Any tips on which trails will be the best tomorrow? I am skiing solo while Mr. Snowflake teaches (first day). I usually stick to single diamonds or easier. I also wouldn’t mind meeting up to make a few turns if anyone is around.



First day ever?  On the post-Christmas weekend in freeze thaw conditions?

Buy him his favorite, strongest liquor!


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> First day ever?  On the post-Christmas weekend in freeze thaw conditions?
> 
> Buy him his favorite, strongest liquor!


First day teaching at SB. He taught previously through our ski club and has PSIA level 1.


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## The Poacher (Dec 26, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Heard that upper mountain snow making at Mt Ellen is not so much an issue with pipes but the lack of ability to have lift access if the terrain was open.   Riemergasse is still likely a week away from opening .


Are there lifts down at North or staffing issues? I'm confused by the lack of ability to have lift access comment. Thanks


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## HowieT2 (Dec 26, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> Are there lifts down at North or staffing issues? I'm confused by the lack of ability to have lift access comment. Thanks


I would guess there’s icing issues.


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## TSQURD (Dec 26, 2021)

It was spinning for a bit but appears GH is down again, as it was yesterday, PM at least.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 26, 2021)

The Poacher said:


> Are there lifts down at North or staffing issues? I'm confused by the lack of ability to have lift access comment. Thanks


Limited number of lift mechanics available


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Limited number of lift mechanics available





TSQURD said:


> It was spinning for a bit but appears GH is down again, as it was yesterday, PM at least.


I was on Bravo at 8:15 this morning when the chair failed to detach and launched us off at the top. It was intermittently running and down for a while after that due to icing problems.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

Can anyone give a snow report for Mt Ellen- specifically inverness? Wondering if I should ski there tomorrow AM.


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## TSQURD (Dec 26, 2021)

Less crowded this morning than expected but people seemed to be trickling in scraping the mountain clean in the process.  Asked one of the ambassadors, he said they were replacing a wheel and then needed to reset all the chairs on GH this morning.  

As far as Ellen tomorrow, going out on a limb but I wouldn't expect drastically different conditions anywhere. North is usually less crowded, which should help it hold up longer, but with the even more limited number of trails it might not.  Also, GMVS has a training this week so be sure to check if Inverness is open to the public if that's why you are heading over there.


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## WinS (Dec 26, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Limited number of lift mechanics available


Icing was the issue on GMX and GH. Detachables are far more vulnerable to icing than fixed grips are. I was actually surprised Bravo did not have delays yesterday or today but it did have some early collision faults that stopped it several times due  to the freezing mist that was still here early today.

What was getting replaced were a couple of the rubber tires in the terminal which were impacted by icing. The ice also caused issues with the chair spacing and they had to be reset once the ice was cleared. There are anti-collusion sensors that stop the lift if chairs are not spaced properly.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 26, 2021)

My comment regarding the limited number of lift mechanics was not related to GMX or GH icing but the fact that they are not blowing snow on the upper mountain at Mt Ellen as both the Summit and Northridge chairs are currently idle.  Why make snow if you aren't going to run lifts to access the trails?


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## WWF-VT (Dec 26, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> Can anyone give a snow report for Mt Ellen- specifically inverness? Wondering if I should ski there tomorrow AM.



Everything at Mt Ellen was a "one and done" today.  Northstar was firm until the lower half, Which Way was extra chunky, Inverness was GMVS race ready hard pack.  The best snow was on Crackerjack.  Another groom tonight should improve conditions.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> First day ever?  On the post-Christmas weekend in freeze thaw conditions?
> 
> Buy him his favorite, strongest liquor!


He said the snow was great in the learning areas today. He had a good time today teaching 2 adult never evers and a teenager learning to parallel. Still had a nice stiff drink when he got home.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

WWF-VT said:


> Everything at Mt Ellen was a "one and done" today.  Northstar was firm until the lower half, Which Way was extra chunky, Inverness was GMVS race ready hard pack.  The best snow was on Crackerjack.  Another groom tonight should improve conditions.


Thanks! Sounds like I will head over to Lincoln Peak again tomorrow! Spring fling held up pretty well until 1pm today.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 26, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> Thanks! Sounds like I will head over to Lincoln Peak again tomorrow! Spring fling held up pretty well until 1pm today.


we skied lp this morning and then my son went over to mt eLen.  Found the snow over there to be better.
lodge is much improved.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 26, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> we skied lp this morning and then my son went over to mt eLen.  Found the snow over there to be better.
> lodge is much improved.


Which trails did you ski at LP? Mt. Ellen?


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## ss20 (Dec 26, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> He said the snow was great in the learning areas today. He had a good time today teaching 2 adult never evers and a teenager learning to parallel. Still had a nice stiff drink when he got home.



The most sore days of my entire ski season each year were always my first day teaching, the first busy day, and the first day teaching kids on the carpet!  The first powder day... a little stiff but fine in comparison!


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## HowieT2 (Dec 27, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> Which trails did you ski at LP? Mt. Ellen?


Most, if not all of the few that are open.


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## Hawk (Dec 27, 2021)

It rained, they groomed and it froze.  The terrain is what is to be expected.  It will get gradually better with grooming and small doses of natural snow this week.  I skied yesterday and headed out now.  Bad visibility at the top.  Rip chord was actiually better where they did not groom.  At lease the surface was uniform and not varied with sheets of ice.  I cant stand skiing that long runout at the bottom of Ellen so until they open at least North Ridge, you won't see me over there.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 27, 2021)

The summit at the top of Ripcord was gorgeous this AM! The clouds were down below and the top was blue skies! The snow/grooming  on upper Jester was very good this AM.


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## crank (Dec 27, 2021)

NYSnowflake said:


> The summit at the top of Ripcord was gorgeous this AM! The clouds were down below and the top was blue skies! The snow/grooming  on upper Jester was very good this AM.


Yeah it was!


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## WinS (Dec 27, 2021)

Heaven’s Gate this morning.


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## Hawk (Dec 27, 2021)

Today, the good.  Ripchord skiers right, spring fling, Pushover
the bad, Middle organgrinder, whats up with leaving the wales for a week?  Ice and whales are a bad combo.
The ugly, upper organgrinder.  That trail needs a resurface but don't stop expanding for me.  ;-)


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## WWF-VT (Dec 27, 2021)

Mt Ellen was much better today after the Sunday night groom but still very limited terrain.  Heard that Elbow had previously had snow blown and has solid cover but still no effort to get Summit or North Ridge chairs spinning.


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 27, 2021)

Interesting article about the supercharged demand (coupled with ongoing supply chain issues) for new lifts from Poma and Doppelmayr.  Based upon the below quote it will be interesting to see what the timeline ultimately will look like if Sugarbush has plans for new lifts as John Hammond mentioned recently...

“But now, very quickly, everybody starts wanting lifts,” says Landsman, whose day job entails supervising lift operations at Wyoming’s Jackson Hole ski area. “Used to be that resorts could call up their lift company in February, order a new lift, sign a deal in March and have it installed by November. I think those days are gone.”

Quick installs of multi-million dollar chairlifts are gone for the foreseeable future. Cole’s team is backed up into 2023.









						Busier-than-ever year for Grand Junction chairlift maker reveals strength of nation’s resort industry
					

Leitner Poma in Grand Junction sees record orders for chairlifts as ski resorts upgrade to higher capacity to handle increased traffic




					coloradosun.com


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2021)

From the various conversations I have had, lifts are not the priority right now.  I think it is more about replacing old snowmaking piping and posibly building a new pond.  

Snow report this morning shows Birch and Rimrun as the next snowmaking trails.  What is the over-under for when they will open the new lifts?  I say next week.  Tuesday is my call.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2021)

Love this from the snow report: "We have been enjoying laps on the freshly dropped ropes of In Road, Out Road, Out to Lunch, and Heaven's Gate Traverse." Seriously? None of those are exactly trails to hype dropping ropes on nor is anyone lapping any of those...


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## teleo (Dec 28, 2021)

That's funny.  I stopped reading the reports.  They add no value.  Not how it's supposed to be.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 28, 2021)

i have really been hating the website lately. so many clicks to get to actual info.


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## WinS (Dec 28, 2021)

Hawk said:


> It rained, they groomed and it froze.  The terrain is what is to be expected.  It will get gradually better with grooming and small doses of natural snow this week.  I skied yesterday and headed out now.  Bad visibility at the top.  Rip chord was actiually better where they did not groom.  At lease the surface was uniform and not varied with sheets of ice.  I cant stand skiing that long runout at the bottom of Ellen so until they open at least North Ridge, you won't see me over there.


Looking at the weather forecast I think you are most likely correct. They did lose a pump  as the Mad River which is out for repair, so snowmaking is about 70% of capacity until it comes back. Hopefully only a few days. Next week‘s temperatures look a lot better so I would guess Birch and Sunrise  will come in well and so too Rim Run and Elbow. Five lifts got hit hard this summer by lightening (GMX, Northridge, Summit, Inverness and SB). Northridge was hit the hardest and like two summer ago it fried  the PLCs among other things. I understand the electrical system is fixed and there are a only a few more mechanical fixes for it to run. Summit is ready for inspection tomorrow. So North Lynx and Summit may  be the next lifts when snowmaking  allows the  trails to  open.

We are definitely seeing more intensive weather events and this summer’s lightening strike is another example.

Early turns on Ripcord, Upper and Lower Organgrinder, Snowball, Spring Fling, Pushover and Slowepoke were really nice. Upper Organgrinder was my pick of the day if there early and it was groomed after Ripcord. Loved cruising In and Out Road and Out to Lunch too, CD Skier. . By 10:30am things were getting very firm and crowded.

i hear that Sleeper may be groomed and opened tomorrow.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2021)

WinS said:


> Looking at the weather forecast I think you are most likely correct. They did lose a pump  as the Mad River which is out for repair, so snowmaking is about 70% of capacity until it comes back. Hopefully only a few days. Next week‘s temperatures look a lot better so I would guess Birch and Sunrise  will come in well and so too Rim Run and Elbow. Five lifts got hit hard this summer by lightening (GMX, Northridge, Summit, Inverness and SB). Northridge was hit the hardest and like two summer ago it fried  the PLCs among other things. I understand the electrical system is fixed and there are a only a few more mechanical fixes for it to run. Summit is ready for inspection tomorrow. So North Lynx and Summit may  be the next lifts when snowmaking  allows the  trails to  open.


That's some interesting info...and something I wish there was a bit more transparency regarding from the current management team. I feel like this is something you would have told us in a "Win's Word" blog post back when you still owned SB and wouldn't have left us speculating so much on why the effort to open upper ME terrain seemed a bit minimal so far. That helps explain some of the recent snow-making choices at ME too.



WinS said:


> Loved cruising In and Out Road and Out to Lunch too, CD Skier. .


LOL!


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## mikec142 (Dec 28, 2021)

I skied on the 24th, 26th, and 27th at LP.  The 27th was the best day.  Given the limited terrain I was just pretty happy to knock the rust off and get my legs under me.

One quick thing I wanted to mention.  I very much appreciate SB's policy of open the trail and put caution signs up.  However, I skied Upper Organgrinder yesterday...the first-third of the trail had me thinking, this is fun, I'm gonna do it again.  The bottom two-thirds had me hanging on for dear life.  It was a sheet of boilerplate.  I also found Ripcord to be bad between lift towers 7-9, but not as bad as OG.

I could use a couple of lessons.  Can any of you regulars suggest an instructor who is a great teacher?  I'm 51 years old, I've been skiing since I was a kid.  I would say that I can get down pretty much anything inbounds, but I might not look the best while doing it.  Would love to just improve my overall form.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Love this from the snow report: "We have been enjoying laps on the freshly dropped ropes of In Road, Out Road, Out to Lunch, and Heaven's Gate Traverse." Seriously? None of those are exactly trails to hype dropping ropes on nor is anyone lapping any of those...


My thoughts exactly when I read that!!


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 28, 2021)

I saw a groomer out on a closed trail on far skier’s right at Mt Ellen around lunchtime today…. Maybe they are going to open a new trail?

Lower organ grinder was too firm for my tastes at 8:30am today but by  10:00 it had softened up beautifully! That was my favorite trail today.


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## teleo (Dec 28, 2021)

Win,  thank you for your updates here.   Very much appreciated.


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## shadyjay (Dec 28, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i have really been hating the website lately. so many clicks to get to actual info.


There have been a few days in the past week or so when the lifts/trails page didn't display any information whatsoever on the web site (using Google Chrome).  The new interactive map is nice.  I miss that feature on the app... now all it gives you is an alphabetical resort-wide trail listing with no indication of whether or not there is snowmaking or grooming on a particular trail.  

Having HG Traverse now open may not seem like much, but it does give you an alternative to Heaven's Gate (via Middle Jester or Lower OG).  I've gotten a turn or two on that trail in the past... many more than on In-Road, Out-Road, or the dreaded Reverse Traverse.  Out to Lunch has some fun turns on it too, and I've gotten a few groomed runs on it.  I used to live in the village so it was a good "last run".  

At North, I'm kind of surprised not to see Northridge Expressway open or having snow made.  That's a good backup trail to get to more of the "main face" if wind or other issues have GMX on delay.  And Brambles too... love that trail!!!


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## ducky (Dec 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I could use a couple of lessons.  Can any of you regulars suggest an instructor who is a great teacher?  I'm 51 years old, I've been skiing since I was a kid.  I would say that I can get down pretty much anything inbounds, but I might not look the best while doing it.  Would love to just improve my overall form.


Terry Barbour, the former ski school director, is perhaps the best and has beautiful form and would be my choice. It is hard to go wrong with any private lesson instructor though.


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## ss20 (Dec 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I could use a couple of lessons.  Can any of you regulars suggest an instructor who is a great teacher?  I'm 51 years old, I've been skiing since I was a kid.  I would say that I can get down pretty much anything inbounds, but I might not look the best while doing it.  Would love to just improve my overall form.



I can't give one...but I have a question for you that may help regulars on this site give you a recommendation.  Do you want a drill sergeant or do you want someone with a more relaxed pace (but still educational/valuable)?  When it comes to intermediate+ level adults, there's a ton of different preferences.  I've had people (almost always males) that almost demand a new drill/feedback/demo literally every 500 feet down the mountain.  I've also had adults who want to spend more of our time with me taking their picture against the scenery than actually skiing, and giving instruction when they want.  Not saying you're the former or the latter...but if you're the type that wants to be viewed, analyzed, videoed, and scrutinized there's an instructor for you.  If you want to take a couple runs and get some good feedback/things-to-try while riding the lift up and have a mostly quiet instructor on the way down... that's (usually) a different instructor.  

Give a few more details on your expectations and I'm sure the regulars can give their opinion.  There's lots of good instructors for advanced skiers...lets help find you the one that best fits you!


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2021)

shadyjay said:


> There have been a few days in the past week or so when the lifts/trails page didn't display any information whatsoever on the web site (using Google Chrome).



I've had that happen a few times in Safari on my iPhone. Usually reloading the page a couple times "fixes" it. The "content" for the snow-report is pulled via javascript by the Sugarbush site from an entirely different site that simply hosts the "live" data (presumably it is used to host the dynamic data for all the Alterra resorts using this platform). If the content from that 2nd site isn't pulled quickly enough by your browser or for whatever reason that other site gives an error or something like that, you'll get the "blank" data issue on the SB website.


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 28, 2021)

ducky said:


> Terry Barbour, the former ski school director, is perhaps the best and has beautiful form and would be my choice. It is hard to go wrong with any private lesson instructor though.


Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop but I thought T-Bar was the current ski school director. Who's in that role now?


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## ducky (Dec 29, 2021)

SkiTheEast said:


> Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop but I thought T-Bar was the current ski school director. Who's in that role now?


Joey Carey from Killington is the new director. Terry is still available to teach but is pursuing his career as a contractor. ss20 makes a valid point but I'd say most instructors can fill both roles.


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## tumbler (Dec 29, 2021)

If they are going to keep the same Bravo corral setup as last year they need to have someone organizing when the lines go. They had a person at HG which helped a lot. If no staff for Bravo go back to the alternating funnel down to one lane. 
And we need snow!


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## WinS (Dec 29, 2021)

tumbler said:


> If they are going to keep the same Bravo corral setup as last year they need to have someone organizing when the lines go. They had a person at HG which helped a lot. If no staff for Bravo go back to the alternating funnel down to one lane.
> And we need snow!


I am surprised. There was someone yesterday.  What time were you there? The staff comes in at different  hours. The corral manager might be scheduled to start at 9am as the line usually does not need someone until then, but the crowd seemed to come in earlier today. I did not ride Bravo after 8am so don’t know what it was like later.


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## TSQURD (Dec 29, 2021)

WinS said:


> ...but the crowd seemed to come in earlier today...



Did they ever.  

The lifties at HG this morning were great. Lots of positive energy, keeping it upbeat and seemed to be having fun and kept the line flowing smoothly.


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## tumbler (Dec 29, 2021)

WinS said:


> I am surprised. There was someone yesterday.  What time were you there? The staff comes in at different  hours. The corral manager might be scheduled to start at 9am as the line usually does not need someone until then, but the crowd seemed to come in earlier today. I did not ride Bravo after 8am so don’t know what it was like later.


9:30-11:30.


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2021)

tumbler said:


> 9:30-11:30.


I just looked at the webcam for the SB lift line. I took a quick look at 30 minute intervals from 9:30 to now and see someone managing the lanes at every point where I checked... Maybe you were just unlucky a few times when the person had to walk away for a couple minutes for some reason?


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## tumbler (Dec 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I just looked at the webcam for the SB lift line. I took a quick look at 30 minute intervals from 9:30 to now and see someone managing the lanes at every point where I checked... Maybe you were just unlucky a few times when the person had to walk away for a couple minutes for some reason?


Must have been. It’s a zoo up there today. Good for business.


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## Hawk (Dec 31, 2021)

The skiing and lines have not been too bad this week.  Don't get me wrong it is busy but not a bad as I expected.  Ripchord was really good early and the sun came out on the top for a cool inversion type of ski.  Between here and Killington I have racked up a ton of runs and I can truely say I have honed my ice skills.  I am ready for the snow!


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## crank (Dec 31, 2021)

Today featured the longest lines and the best conditions of the week.  Started sprinkling sometime in the afternoon and we called it a day though the lines were gone by then and so were my legs.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

Stowe had pretty quick lines...hmm
Havent made it to sb yet..maybe next week..
Are they...blowing more than Fail is..
Going to need to after this rain...
That will probably detrrmine where i spend my time as i have epic and ikon..
Really pissed at Fail though..they are getting worse and worse...


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## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe had pretty quick lines...hmm
> Havent made it to sb yet..maybe next week..
> Are they...blowing more than Fail is..
> Going to need to after this rain...
> ...


Even the VT faithful are now starting to see Fail for what they are. When dr Jeff starts bashing them at Mt snow then the end will be reached.


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## NYSnowflake (Dec 31, 2021)

crank said:


> Today featured the longest lines and the best conditions of the week.  Started sprinkling sometime in the afternoon and we called it a day though the lines were gone by then and so were my legs.


Definitely! Even deathspout was fun!


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## Hawk (Jan 1, 2022)

Happy New Year all!  Headed out for some turns.  I need to clear my big fat head.  Whoa big night.  Cocktails with the condo association peeps, Village Run Pre-fireworks (nice job guys, good size for a homemade display), cocktails at the base and more fireworks fun, cocktails back at the place with family.  All good.  

Skiing yesterday was soft and nice.  Hoping for more today befire the temp change.
Pray for snow!


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## jaybird (Jan 1, 2022)

We are quickly running out of wood core skis to burn in our sacrificial powder pyre..
Happy Year of the Tiger !


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 1, 2022)

Happy New Year! These soft turns allowed me to take my first runs down Ripcord this AM! A few days ago I said I would be skiing Ripcord by the end of the season… this was sooner than I expected though!


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## crank (Jan 1, 2022)

We made it out for the afternoon.  No crowds.  Everything was skiing well.  Hate to see spring conditions, but they were fun to ski.  No lines at all.  No rain, just mist and fog. Warm. Still like that out now.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 1, 2022)

Spectacular conditions this afternoon. The only ice spot was after the lift gates at Super Bravo.  Ripcord and Sleeper chute were the best runs.  One of the things I really love about how Sugarbush is run is that the lifts actually run till 4 (one was loading until 4:05).


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2022)

Hopefully this storm pans out..then ill hit sb this week...


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 2, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Spectacular conditions this afternoon. The only ice spot was after the lift gates at Super Bravo.  Ripcord and Sleeper chute were the best runs.  One of the things I really love about how Sugarbush is run is that the lifts actually run till 4 (one was loading until 4:05).



nothing against you personally, but its a huge pet peeve (particularly on skiology facebook fan posts) when people use hyperbolic language to describe conditions. nothing is spectacular right now in the east. nothing. nowhere. 'pretty good all things considered' is like as far as you can reasonably go right now.


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## skimagic (Jan 2, 2022)

"spectacular".   its either genuine New Years optimism or classic skifishing.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hopefully this storm pans out..then ill hit sb this week...


Which storm do you speak?


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## sugarbushskier16 (Jan 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Which storm do you speak?


I saw Josh Fox was talking about the possibility of a nor’easter on Friday.  Would be the biggest storm so far this season But how this season is going I’m not getting my hopes up too high but there’s still a possibility


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## slatham (Jan 2, 2022)

Definitely potential. Track key of course. Could be coastal where SB too far north for core of it. In the meantime east coast powder skiing tomorrow will be in NC, WV and VA.


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## JimG. (Jan 2, 2022)

slatham said:


> In the meantime east coast powder skiing tomorrow will be in NC, WV and VA.


Ya another meteorological kick in the balls for NE in 21-22.


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## pinnoke (Jan 2, 2022)

New Year; new potential. Tips Up! Good to see some newer posters on our thread...


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2022)

sugarbushskier16 said:


> I saw Josh Fox was talking about the possibility of a nor’easter on Friday.  Would be the biggest storm so far this season But how this season is going I’m not getting my hopes up too high but there’s still a possibility


It seems like a 50/50 chance of nor’easter or nothing.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 2, 2022)

As my ski instructor told me… there’s good skiing… and skiing that’s good for you! Before saying “let’s go find some nice ice!” Today’s skiing was definitely good for me! I remembered my ice skiing skills today while making the best of dust on crust conditions. I hope the snowmakers will be extra busy tonight!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 2, 2022)

Its snowed all day up here and is still snowing in williston...stowe got abkut 3 inches which made the "frozen granular" a bit better.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Its snowed all day up here and is still snowing in williston...stowe got abkut 3 inches which made the "frozen granular" a bit better.


Up here? You were at sugarbush?


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## jaybird (Jan 2, 2022)

At this point, we’re resisting any talk about a storm until it manifests itself on the ground.
Thank you to the operations team for doing the best they can with the hand they’re playing


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

No..i was at stowe..snow was tapering off but when i got back to williston it was still coming down..
My neighbors had their snow blowers going..
Mine is coming next week...all i got..is a shovel.
Think ill hit sb tomorrow or wednesday..still have a lot of painting do before next week..when all our stuff arrives


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## Lotso (Jan 3, 2022)

Nice to see Elbow and RR lit up, as well as Expressway. Looks like NR should be up and running soon.

Still baffled by lack of snowmaking on Murphy's, Lower SB, and Birdland. Maybe that will change once they are done with Birch.

Really frustrated by the BAD website. Often it won't load, and the report is meh and filled with just recycled info.


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## tumbler (Jan 3, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Nice to see Elbow and RR lit up, as well as Expressway. Looks like NR should be up and running soon.
> 
> Still baffled by lack of snowmaking on Murphy's, Lower SB, and Birdland. Maybe that will change once they are done with Birch.
> 
> Really frustrated by the BAD website. Often it won't load, and the report is meh and filled with just recycled info.


Looks like pushover, lower pushover to easy rider are getting a refresh, must have gotten thin.  It would be nice to get the trails you mentioned done especially murphy's and birdland, but if they are up on Birch hopefully blow sunrise too in these temps and be done up there.  Don't forget about Steins too.


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## slatham (Jan 3, 2022)

Remember what Win said about spreading team too thin with multiple, disconnected pods, having simultaneous snowmaking? My bet is they blow enough to get North Lynx open, refresh open Gate House terrain, and open Hot Shot. Then they move to Steins, Birdland, Murphy's.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

About to head back up and may just lap where they are making snow. Bumps are forming on slowpoke. Don’t ski over there much but top is getting scraped off.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

And spring fling ain’t skiing well either.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 3, 2022)

I noticed on the morning report that Spillsville is open. Was it open over the weekend?  How can there be enough snow?


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## djd66 (Jan 3, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> I noticed on the morning report that Spillsville is open. Was it open over the weekend?  How can there be enough snow?


It was not open over the weekend.  The inch of new snow I'm sure helped - ski it if you can!


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> I noticed on the morning report that Spillsville is open. Was it open over the weekend?  How can there be enough snow?


The cross over from og was open and only saw 2 people ski it before noon. I was not one of them. 
On another note I shouldn’t have went to ME in the afternoon. Worse conditions I have encountered all season(day16). Icy hard pack. Only reason to be over here would be racing and the park. Blowing on north peak - elbow and looked like maybe northway or northridge exp.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 3, 2022)

Icy with scant amounts of dust blowing around over the surface of jester, lower organ grinder, snowball/spring fling, and sleeper. Today is day 10 for me at SB. Heading back to NY. See you in a couple weeks and hopefully there will be better conditions by then!


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 3, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> About to head back up and may just lap where they are making snow. Bumps are forming on slowpoke. Don’t ski over there much but top is getting scraped off.


The guns are spraying very wet snow… my goggles got hit directly and took forever to de-ice!


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## tumbler (Jan 3, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> The guns are spraying very wet snow… my goggles got hit directly and took forever to de-ice!


This drives me nuts, it's in the single digits and they still have to make slop snow.


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## slatham (Jan 3, 2022)

tumbler said:


> This drives me nuts, it's in the single digits and they still have to make slop snow.


Yes that is not how you 'resurface' open terrain. Base building up on North Lynx, fine. But not resurfacing.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> The guns are spraying very wet snow… my goggles got hit directly and took forever to de-ice!


Only the guns by the split were blowing that wet shit. Rest were dry


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## shadyjay (Jan 3, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Only the guns by the split were blowing that wet shit. Rest were dry



Your best bet to rectify this problem (for yourself and for others) is to tell someone... a lift operator or patrol or anyone with a radio.  Then they can radio to snowmaking control and then forward that info to the guys on the hill.  

When I worked day shift, we would get calls like that all the time... wasn't necessarily our fault, just the guns having issues at times, hoses freezing up, air lines freezing, etc.  We'd put on our gear, go out and fix it, and then dry off again.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Your best bet to rectify this problem (for yourself and for others) is to tell someone... a lift operator or patrol or anyone with a radio.  Then they can radio to snowmaking control and then forward that info to the guys on the hill.
> 
> When I worked day shift, we would get calls like that all the time... wasn't necessarily our fault, just the guns having issues at times, hoses freezing up, air lines freezing, etc.  We'd put on our gear, go out and fix it, and then dry off again.


Didn’t bother me. There was an opening you could ski through without it affecting you.


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## WinS (Jan 3, 2022)

I skied all those trails first thing and found the guns running well. A tip is to ski under the towers rather than the middle of trail when the towers are blowing snow. It is often the best snow. Looking at mountain late afternoon from home it seems GMP may have called a full curtailment,  meaning snowmaking has to be shut off for three hours. But more than three hours are lost due to shutting down and starting up. GMP is likely projecting this as the coldest night on the foreseeable future. Shady can tell you how much we hated curtailments. Losing hours of snowmaking in these ideal conditions ( cold and calm) is very frustrating. As said slatham said, I would guess the plan would be to finish GH trail including Sunrise and then  move to Birdland, Murphy’s. Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge would be important for MLK. Stein‘s (while a favorite of mine) is likely the last priority.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

WinS said:


> I skied all those trails first thing and found the guns running well. A tip is to ski under the towers rather than the middle of trail when the towers are blowing snow. It is often the best snow. Looking at mountain late afternoon from home it seems GMP may have called a full curtailment,  meaning snowmaking has to be shut off for three hours. But more than three hours are lost due to shutting down and starting up. GMP is likely projecting this as the coldest night on the foreseeable future. Shady can tell you how much we hated curtailments. Losing hours of snowmaking in these ideal conditions ( cold and calm) is very frustrating. As said slatham said, I would guess the plan would be to finish GH trail including Sunrise and then  move to Birdland, Murphy’s. Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge would be important for MLK. Stein‘s (while a favorite of mine) is likely the last priority.


Agree on skiing close to the towers usually. At the split they were crossing and both were wet but there was a space in the middle to sneak through. Those were the only 2. This was around 11:30 and again around 1.


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## djd66 (Jan 3, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Your best bet to rectify this problem (for yourself and for others) is to tell someone... a lift operator or patrol or anyone with a radio.  Then they can radio to snowmaking control and then forward that info to the guys on the hill.


Wow, in all my years of skiing Sugarbush, this is the first I have ever heard that it would be helpful to actually report snow making issues. I don't mean this in a wise or snark way,...

What would be awesome is for them to incorporated something in the app for people to report issues.  Think of WAZE for the mountain.  You get enough reports of wet snow being blown and that would set off alerts to the snowmaking team.  

I'm sure the whole snow making operation is extremely difficult to monitor and adjust if you are blowing a big area - why not use the guest data to help out the team?


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Wow, in all my years of skiing Sugarbush, this is the first I have ever heard that it would be helpful to actually report snow making issues. I don't mean this in a wise or snark way,...
> 
> What would be awesome is for them to incorporated something in the app for people to report issues.  Think of WAZE for the mountain.  You get enough reports of wet snow being blown and that would set off alerts to the snowmaking team.
> 
> I'm sure the whole snow making operation is extremely difficult to monitor and adjust if you are blowing a big area - why not use the guest data to help out the team?


The app doesn’t even tell you where snow is being made now you want to do this? 1 step at a time.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

At least snow is being blown...


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## jaybird (Jan 3, 2022)

Shame on GMP.
It was getting so nice.
We miss birch 
Steins can always be had at pub later.


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## djd66 (Jan 3, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The app doesn’t even tell you where snow is being made now you want to do this? 1 step at a time.


Yeah, there’s that issue too.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 4, 2022)

WinS said:


> I skied all those trails first thing and found the guns running well. A tip is to ski under the towers rather than the middle of trail when the towers are blowing snow. It is often the best snow. Looking at mountain late afternoon from home it seems GMP may have called a full curtailment,  meaning snowmaking has to be shut off for three hours. But more than three hours are lost due to shutting down and starting up. GMP is likely projecting this as the coldest night on the foreseeable future. Shady can tell you how much we hated curtailments. Losing hours of snowmaking in these ideal conditions ( cold and calm) is very frustrating. As said slatham said, I would guess the plan would be to finish GH trail including Sunrise and then  move to Birdland, Murphy’s. Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge would be important for MLK. Stein‘s (while a favorite of mine) is likely the last priority.


These curtailments are certainly a problem.  Is there any way they can source the power from elsewhere?  I assume whatever is coming out of the solar arrays is insufficient.


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2022)

Back when air was the limiting factor they could run the diesel compressors for air and a couple water pumps on electricity to keep going at reduced capacity.  The water pumps are 3 phase electricity so that would take some sizable generators and the transfer panel to switch off the grid.  I think someone back in the day, maybe Killington had a very powerful generator that could power them through curtailments.


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## Hawk (Jan 4, 2022)

They could make a huge pond and collect water for snowmaking.  Durring curtailments, they could release the water through a turbine to produce power.  They are already planning to build a new pond so kill two birds with one stone.


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## 1dog (Jan 4, 2022)

Its the 21st century and we are low on available power. . . .that amazes me. 
We have ability to develop hydro, nuclear, nat. gas ( at less than half the carbon issue as other fossil fuels), as well as coal and oil for back up ( like what was used at COP21 when the wind farms failed)
If its price, one can understand not paying the price, but when its limited by the power company because they can't generate enough - that just seems like  we are in a time warp.
Wonder what the kilowatt usage is compared to last 5-7 years for the state of Vermont.

We had an old village colonial in Quechee in the 80's - a red light would come on around 4:30 PM to 7 - if you used power then, it was gonna cost you more.

Thats different than limiting power usage.


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## shadyjay (Jan 4, 2022)

> I skied all those trails first thing and found the guns running well. A tip is to ski under the towers rather than the middle of trail when the towers are blowing snow. It is often the best snow. Looking at mountain late afternoon from home it seems GMP may have called a full curtailment,  meaning snowmaking has to be shut off for three hours. But more than three hours are lost due to shutting down and starting up. GMP is likely projecting this as the coldest night on the foreseeable future. Shady can tell you how much we hated curtailments. Losing hours of snowmaking in these ideal conditions ( cold and calm) is very frustrating.



Oh ain't that the truth!  For example, if a curtailment runs from 6-9, you have to make sure you have the guns all off line before 6.  Depending on how many guns are running, what trail, and how many guys, and when your last gun run was, you may have to start this procedure at 3pm, or earlier.  Birch is mostly land guns so those take longer.  Its not a matter of shutting the hydrants and going to the next one... you also have to blow out the hoses before they freeze, and make sure the gun is drained properly (and some guns on Birch are double-hosed (or triple hosed, 75 feet x 3) to get through the "islands".  Then when everything's offline, you have to blow down the hill so the pipes don't freeze (above ground lines up there).  And you have to have that all done before curtailment starts.  If you don't, IIRC there are some pretty hefty fines.

The really fun part is firing back up.... You now have to re-charge the area where you were making snow (with Birch, again, that involves some valving and time to get the water "up and over".  Check your overflows, call control, then its time to go up.  Don't forget the torch and some extra hoses - you're gonna need them!  You pray that day crew blew out everything properly.  You fire up the first gun... not too bad.  The next gun... frozen air hydrant.  Get the torch!  The next... frozen water.  You finally make it through all 35 guns and are at the bottom of North Lynx.  By this time, if you're lucky, its midnight or later and nearly zero deg.  So that's nearly 8 hours of lost production due to a curtailment... roughly... for a trail like Birch.   The thing you have going for you on a night like that, is if its calm, you don't have to worry too much about the guns burying themselves.  Drag it to the top of a pile and aim it down.  Fill in the gaps.  Make it easier for the groomers.  Pray you did it right, since a change in wind direction will make your last run of the night downright miserable.   Don't worry, though... you'll see a nice sunrise!

Ahhh.... good times!


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## slatham (Jan 4, 2022)

Thanks Shady, I've always heard what a PIA it is but nobody ever gave the whole, sad story. It amazing that in this day and age, with skiing such an important economic driver in VT, and global warming and fickle weather, that at peak snowmaking times you....shut down?

One question I've always wondered was, can you run the system at 50% (or some level) of power so the system doesn't have to be fully shut off? If so I would hazard to guess that 50% for 6 hours would be better than full-off for 3, given no breakdown needed at 50%?

Assuming we're all on board with diesel compressors not being the answer, maybe battery technology will help fill the void. Though thats a lot of battery storage to run a snowmaking system. Elon, you out there??


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## mtl1076 (Jan 4, 2022)

1) there are half curtailments where you just need to be below a certain level, generally half your peak usage over the past year. Those are much easier to deal with.

2) the curtailable program is not due to lack of power. It’s an economic “thing”. Gmp trys to shave their peak usage where they would be buying the excess capacity at a premium. I assume from hydro quebec or something. Gmp passes some of those cost savings on to those who are in the curtailable program. It’s a significant savings over the course of a year for ski areas. An area can choose not to be in the curtailable program but it will cost $$ to do so. Question is does the lost snowmaking time outweigh the $$ savings. For most, it doesn’t.


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## thebigo (Jan 4, 2022)

Why don't ski areas build water storage at elevation? Fill the reservoir when electricity is cheap, gravity feed the system when electricity is expensive. Same concept as pumped storage.


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## shadyjay (Jan 4, 2022)

Good luck getting something like that built in the middle of the national forest... or anywhere in VT for that matter!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

Just follow Vails plan...dont blow anything...
Problem solved...


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## IceEidolon (Jan 4, 2022)

Building a second power source just to fight through power curtailments isn't likely good ROI, even with how inconvenient they are. If someplace had a very large summit pond, maybe being a gravity storage system would make sense - but you need an empty pond or river at the bottom of the hill and a huge reservoir - the 50 million gallon ponds at Holiday Valley and Seven Springs are probably too small to be viable as grid scale pumped storage. Building new ponds at the top of mountains requires removing the pointy bit so the water stays put, which upsets some people who like steep mountains and not flat, damp plateaus.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 4, 2022)

This is a fun read on Mass's hydro-battery:  https://www.wbur.org/news/2016/12/02/northfield-mountain-hydroelectric-station

Obviously it is at a much larger scale than a ski area would need, but still fun to dream about.


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## pinnoke (Jan 4, 2022)

mtl1076 said:


> 2) the curtailable program is not due to lack of power. It’s an economic “thing”. Gmp trys to shave their peak usage where they would be buying the excess capacity at a premium. I assume from hydro quebec or something. Gmp passes some of those cost savings on to those who are in the curtailable program. It’s a significant savings over the course of a year for ski areas. An area can choose not to be in the curtailable program but it will cost $$ to do so. Question is does the lost snowmaking time outweigh the $$ savings. For most, it doesn’t.


I believe this is the correct interpretation. Based on shadyjay's procedural outline, and multiplied by perhaps more than 1 line, and 1 curtailment, the question raised is appropriate. Perhaps GMP can make it more interesting by factoring in (lack of) natural snowfall and give Sugarbush a break!!!!!!


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## jaybird (Jan 4, 2022)

Some may find this intetesting ..
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/england-one-cold-snap-away-230000107.html

 .. especially the restrictions imposed by the Jones act. (as to LNG supply fuel for many NE generating stations.)

Particularly.. ". A key stipulation of the law is that foreign-owned ships cannot transport goods *between* two US ports – only ships built, owned, and crewed by Americans .. 

Sadly .. 3 Mile Island was a death blow.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jan 4, 2022)

mtl1076 said:


> 2) the curtailable program is not due to lack of power. It’s an economic “thing”. Gmp trys to shave their peak usage where they would be buying the excess capacity at a premium. I assume from hydro quebec or something. Gmp passes some of those cost savings on to those who are in the curtailable program. It’s a significant savings over the course of a year for ski areas. An area can choose not to be in the curtailable program but it will cost $$ to do so. Question is does the lost snowmaking time outweigh the $$ savings. For most, it doesn’t.






1dog said:


> Its the 21st century and we are low on available power. . . .that amazes me.
> We have ability to develop hydro, nuclear, nat. gas ( at less than half the carbon issue as other fossil fuels), as well as coal and oil for back up ( like what was used at COP21 when the wind farms failed)
> If its price, one can understand not paying the price, but when its limited by the power company because they can't generate enough - that just seems like  we are in a time warp.
> Wonder what the kilowatt usage is compared to last 5-7 years for the state of Vermont.
> ...




The problem has nothing to do with either power generation or economic incentives. This is a transmission issue. The mad river valley simply does not have the transmission capability to supply the power needed for snow making on the mountain and for heating all of the homes that are going to need to be heating on such a cold night that snowmaking would be fruitful. If they upgraded the transmission lines, then they could do both things without any problem. This problem does not only affect Sugarbush. Stowe is also at the end of the transmission line and their needs come after the needs of the town of Stowe.


The ski areas are not having curtailment imposed upon them. The curtailment‘s are part of their overall electrical contract. In order to get the cheaper rates if they would like to have the majority of the time, they agree to put up with curtailment at high energy demand times.


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## mtl1076 (Jan 5, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> I believe this is the correct interpretation. Based on shadyjay's procedural outline, and multiplied by perhaps more than 1 line, and 1 curtailment, the question raised is appropriate. Perhaps GMP can make it more interesting by factoring in (lack of) natural snowfall and give Sugarbush a break!!!!!!



Curtailments are called across the entire GMP system, not specific to a single ski area.  GMP does work with ski areas (and I'd imagine other big users) to try and not cause too much trouble with curtailments, but GMP has certain requirements of their own and sometimes they are left with little choice but to call one.  Like I said, a ski area has options to not be in the program, but the cost is not insignificant.


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## mtl1076 (Jan 5, 2022)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> The problem has nothing to do with either power generation or economic incentives. This is a transmission issue. The mad river valley simply does not have the transmission capability to supply the power needed for snow making on the mountain and for heating all of the homes that are going to need to be heating on such a cold night that snowmaking would be fruitful. If they upgraded the transmission lines, then they could do both things without any problem. This problem does not only affect Sugarbush. Stowe is also at the end of the transmission line and their needs come after the needs of the town of Stowe.
> 
> 
> The ski areas are not having curtailment imposed upon them. The curtailment‘s are part of their overall electrical contract. In order to get the cheaper rates if they would like to have the majority of the time, they agree to put up with curtailment at high energy demand times.



I know nothing of the transmission restraints but the curtailable program was never explained to me as an issue with transmission. There are curtailable events in the summer.  Are you telling me those are due to lack of ability to supply/transmit power? There may be more air conditioners running, but I can't imagine that gets anywhere close to the amount of power ski areas use to make snow.


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2022)

Great to see such well informed posts by Shady and Mtl1076.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2022)

i was gonna do sugarbush saturday but this Friday snow looks like a bust and Saturday looks really really cold

i think sunday only in soVt (barf stratton) is more likely for me this weekend


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## Newpylong (Jan 5, 2022)

Regarding curtailment: That is the largest factor why Killington chooses to still lease a lot of Diesel compressed air. There also is limited amount of power in general into the basin. They own roughly 38,000 CFM of in house electric and lease (roughly) an equal amount of air for the first half of the season, some of that departing after the World Cup. It allows them to mix and match but largely not be effected.


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2022)

Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless.  Every day they say it is going to "soften up."  With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up.  Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area.  I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...


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## skiur (Jan 5, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless.  Every day they say it is going to "soften up."  With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up.  Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area.  I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...


What did you think was going to happen when alterra bought them?


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## tumbler (Jan 5, 2022)

Agreed, but the pitch was that Alterra was going to be hands off and let each resort have it's own identity.  I was too optimistic.


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## skiur (Jan 5, 2022)

At least they aren't doing as bad as Vail, but  the bottom line is going to run things as the shareholders have to be kept happy.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2022)

alterra is privately held, so the stock price is less of a thing. 

i also would give sugarbush the benefit of the doubt since the season has been so shit for weather so far. my one day at sugarbush so far was operationally sound, uncrowded, and fun. the website/app sucks but there's other ways to get good weather and conditions info for the region, especially with mad river glen being adjacent and having good no bullshit reporting, and the single chair weather blog focusing exclusively on that part of the state.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Agreed, but the pitch was that Alterra was going to be hands off and let each resort have it's own identity.  I was too optimistic.


Exactly.  As I posted back in November, Deer Valley's COO resigned literally days before the start of the season (or was let go).  He had publicly spoken as to his desire to limit the IKON Pass to reduce crowding.  I imagine that Alterra was not happy about that.  Alterra tapped a Mammoth Bro to take over.

A source at Solitude told me that Alterra calls the shots there too.


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2022)

I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win.  I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around.  It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do.  The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use.  The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.  

My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created.  cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates.  This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here.  Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like.  We will see.

The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created.  cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates.  This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here.  Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like.  We will see.
> 
> The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


Good points.  As to the family and friends, like Vail, Alterra's main focus is the IKON Pass product.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 5, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Back to the snow report on the app and website- worthless.  Every day they say it is going to "soften up."  With temps staying below freezing, nothing is going to soften up.  Not just because of the snow report but in conjunction with other things around the resort, the soul of the place is slowly leaving and becoming just another area.  I'm worried it is going the way of a Vail mountain...


Yeah, I find the snow reporting to be an absolute  snore… same old copy and paste drivel day after day… no useful tips or insight on the available terrain. Uninspiring.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win.  I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around.  It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do.  The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use.  The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.
> 
> My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created.  cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates.  This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here.  Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like.  We will see.
> 
> The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


The opinion of those who have had passes for over 10 years.


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## SkiTheEast (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win.  I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around.  It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do.  The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use.  The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.
> 
> My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created.  cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates.  This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here.  Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like.  We will see.
> 
> The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


Great point on the friends and family. The Ikon pass advertises the friends and family discount as some kind of great benefit when in reality it's useless at Sugarbush.  They've set their window rate at $180 (highest in the east I believe) - which makes Ikon discount tickets $135. Hardly a bargain when there is only a few days on the calendar that are more than that ($139) with the majority between 110 and 120.  So Sugarbush has found a way to participate in the letter of the program but not necessarily the spirit.

Understand they are probably doing it for crowd management but not really a useful benefit for the full-time Sugarbush skier who wants to bring their friends and family up for a day at the mountain.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 5, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Yeah, I find the snow reporting to be an absolute  snore… same old copy and paste drivel day after day… no useful tips or insight on the available terrain. Uninspiring.


Especially from a mountain that used to have some of the best snow reports around...


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## SkiTheEast (Jan 5, 2022)

Would really be nice to get a nice walloping dump.  Feel like we're all just sitting around nitpicking because mother nature has been holding out on giving us the good stuff. Bet it's hard to write an inspiring snow report when 30% of the trails are open and not much new terrain coming online yet I suppose.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2022)

Im going tomorrow regardless..cant...paint...anymore...


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## slatham (Jan 5, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Great point on the friends and family. The Ikon pass advertises the friends and family discount as some kind of great benefit when in reality it's useless at Sugarbush.  They've set their window rate at $180 (highest in the east I believe) - which makes Ikon discount tickets $135. Hardly a bargain when there is only a few days on the calendar that are more than that ($139) with the majority between 110 and 120.  So Sugarbush has found a way to participate in the letter of the program but not necessarily the spirit.
> 
> Understand they are probably doing it for crowd management but not really a useful benefit for the full-time Sugarbush skier who wants to bring their friends and family up for a day at the mountain.



Two major negative side affects of Ikon/Epic - friends/family not skiing together because they are on different passes, or because they simply can’t afford the “discounted” day rate of $125 and up. Really disappointing. Personally I think they should scale the discount based on demand. So less of a discount on a holiday, a bit more on a non holiday weekend, and still more on a weekday.


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## WinS (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I personally think that all decisions at Sugarbush this year are coming from John Hammonds team with input from his trusted friends like Win.  I have not heard any scuttlebutt to the contrary and I have asked around.  It looks like they sink or swim with whatever they choose to do.  The only exception was that they were given the direction to go with App Altura wanted to use.  The snowmaking is an existing problem, the power company and weather is not under thier control.
> 
> My only concern about Altera is the legacy of what thier pass structure has created.  cheaper passes and sugarbush as a base mountain is a no brainer for opening the flood gates.  This is exactly what happened at Snowbird and Crystal and I can only hope it does not happen here.  Once the snow starts falling, what are the crowds going to look like.  We will see.
> 
> The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


There is nothing worse than an ex CEO meddling, so I normally limit by advice to when asked. However, I am going to share some thoughts on the snow report. I believe the new web and app limit the words that are possible as  did the old ones, but I think improvements can be made. There is a new snow reporter, and she is located here not Denver, so there should be a way to get more useful information in the report. I normally ski first thing but today I had a call and can attest that is did not get softer. Yesterday, a useful tip would have been that Spring Fling got a late groom, so it would be the best to hit first. I saw that from my home and had some great runs. Today it was hard packed as it set up after an early groom and hard to get an edge in. Plan to pass that along. I think the whales on Pushover and Slowpoke will groom out nicely [when they do it. I do see that Sunrise is set up to turn on tonight and based on the forecast I would presume they will finish up GH trails and then move over to Snowball and Racer‘s Edge and then mid-mountain Birdland and Murphy’s. Just an educated guess though. The Summit Chair at ME is opening tomorrow, so it will be great to be able to ski Elbow and Rim Run finally.


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## shadyjay (Jan 5, 2022)

Whales on Pushover..... that is DEFINITELY something that should be mentioned in the snow report.  Especially since the app doesn't show grooming status on trails.   A mention of no easier route open from the top of Gate House may be important information to pass along. 

I did get a good laugh on Monday's report when it said things were going to "soften up".  It was in the 20s down here in CT on Monday.   Given the freeze/thaws and lack of natural lately, I think I'm going to delay my visit up there until early March.  I can't imagine going to Mt Ellen and not being able to lap some of my favorite runs off Summit/NRE.  In lean snow years in the early 90s during the Christmas/NYE holiday, Lincoln Peak had minimal trails open (picture what was open on GH side this year + Downspout + Spring Fling... that's it), while Mt Ellen had pretty much all of its snowmaking-capable trails open.  Mt Ellen was the early/late season mtn too, so you started with Summit and worked down.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The other thing that I am sure they did not plan on is the cost barrier that will exclude friends and families from coming up.  I have seen it this year in dramatic fasion.  None of my friends and family will come up because they will not pay over $100 in advance to ski a mountain that may have questionable conditions or massive crowds.  Not worth it to them.  I truely think that pass holders that have had passes at one mountain for over 10 years should get a break so that they can have these people come to ski with them.  Just my opinion.  Actually the opinion of many.


10 years is both arbitrary and an extremely high bar. However, they really should get creative and solve this for the good of the industry.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> 10 years is both arbitrary and an extremely high bar. However, they really should get creative and solve this for the good of the industry.


This issue as well as the high-cost barrier for entry into the sport.  Win's SB had a product to address the latter.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2022)

WinS said:


> However, I am going to share some thoughts on the snow report. I believe the new web and app limit the words that are possible as  did the old ones, but I think improvements can be made.



So just for reference I took a look at Stratton's website right now (which seems to be on the same Alterra web platform best I can tell as they both pull the snow report info via a JSON feed from the same underlying database) and they are putting a heck of a lot more text on their snow report page somehow (granted a lot of that is info on special deals and promotions similar to what SB used to do on in their report in the past, but at least it seems to indicate there's somehow a way to put more text than SB is doing now). It is also formatted much nicer which makes it much easier to read. When you click "continue reading" on Stratton's page, it just expands the text box on that page as opposed to on the SB site when you click "read more" it pops up an annoying popup box with the text.


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## slatham (Jan 5, 2022)

The old sugarbush snow reports were awesome. “Firm and Fast” was often used, accurately. On natural snow trails “know before you go”, “Thin with exposed water bars”. I even saw the rarely used phrase “dust on crust” in reference to anything not groomed. They weren’t quite as detailed as last weeks MRG report on the opening of the double, but still......


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## Hawk (Jan 5, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> 10 years is both arbitrary and an extremely high bar. However, they really should get creative and solve this for the good of the industry.


I am approaching 20.  Most of the people I ski with are 30 plus.  Most of us spend upwards of 5 grand a person per year not to mention the hundreds of converts we have brought before this whole cheap pass thing came around.  To say this is becomming disappointing is an understatment.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 5, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So just for reference I took a look at Stratton's website right now (which seems to be on the same Alterra web platform best I can tell as they both pull the snow report info via a JSON feed from the same underlying database) and they are putting a heck of a lot more text on their snow report page somehow (granted a lot of that is info on special deals and promotions similar to what SB used to do on in their report in the past, but at least it seems to indicate there's somehow a way to put more text than SB is doing now). It is also formatted much nicer which makes it much easier to read. When you click "continue reading" on Stratton's page, it just expands the text box on that page as opposed to on the SB site when you click "read more" it pops up an annoying popup box with the text.


I mentioned this issue right when Win sold SB.  Website is stale, too corporate.  You can't treat each ski resort like a Best Buy website, insert name here on the bottom of site. Ski resorts websites need more of a local feel, kinda like the old site.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I am approaching 20.  Most of the people I ski with are 30 plus.  Most of us spend upwards of 5 grand a person per year not to mention the hundreds of converts we have brought before this whole cheap pass thing came around.  To say this is becomming disappointing is an understatment.


This is our 17th year. Tonight we were talking about quitting the sport,  but then said “who are we kidding”... We are responsible for 3 families moving to the valley.  My sisters family was thinking of coming up to visit this weekend, but changed their mind after learning of the new deal. A small loss for the mountain, the town and us too. Couldn't agree with Hawk more!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2022)

Worth a visit tomorrow??


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## Johnny B (Jan 5, 2022)

slatham said:


> The old sugarbush snow reports were awesome. “Firm and Fast” was often used, accurately. On natural snow trails “know before you go”, “Thin with exposed water bars”. I even saw the rarely used phrase “dust on crust” in reference to anything not groomed. They weren’t quite as detailed as last weeks MRG report on the opening of the double, but still......


Hey everyone! JB from Sugarbush here, resident PR man. I'm overdue to get involved on here and help answer questions when I can. I think I got so used to Win always doing it I forgot all about these forums!

On the snow report...It's something I've overseen at Sugarbush for nearly a decade now. I think we can all agree that the old app and snow report layout we had built with our last website worked great. We've always worked to be pretty transparent in our report, and we had a lot of extra stats and details other resorts didn't. With our move to this new app and website, there are definitely some limitations compared to what we used to be able to do. Believe me when I say we've been working hard with Alterra to make improvements where possible. In fact, hopefully pretty soon, you should see some nice layout changes to the main conditions page, removing extraneous icons and info like wind speed (it's never accurate!) and adding in what we feel is more important stuff like easy to locate snowfall totals. While we can't create links or do any sort of formating in our narrative right now (for what it's worth we are NOT on the same version as Stratton - various Alterra resorts are in different phases of the snow report system. I believe Big Bear is on the same version as us), we are working to add some "hot links" up near the top of the report to things like Uphill Travel, Health Guidelines, and an Operational Updates page we're building. Bit by bit, we'll work to improve the report with the resources we've been given. The app is obviously a priority too (for now I recommend you always click the info button in bottom right and view the snow report on web tab).

From an actual narrative and language standpoint, I agree the verbiage needs to improve. It's an ongoing training whenever we get a new snow reporter. I always welcome feedback on the snow report (or anything else for that matter)! Just shoot an email over to communications@sugarbush.com anytime you want to connect. Or I'll work to check the forums every now and then.

Now how about some damn snow?!


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2022)

Welcome John! Good to have you on board here in these forums!


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## SkiTheEast (Jan 5, 2022)

Thanks alot John! Appreciate you jumping in here... we're definitely some well intentioned Sugarbush lovers so you'll have no shortage of suggestions.


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## pinnoke (Jan 5, 2022)

Welcome Johnny B!


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2022)

Glad to hear about the uphill link as I can never find all the info. Can see the uphill maps but then can never find the way to actually get to the registration for it that the maps mention.


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## jaybird (Jan 6, 2022)

Seems that in times of low snowfall, it is often the snow report and reporters that end up taking the blame. That's just nuts. Anyone with a browser or window should know by now that there has been sparse natural and thaws have wreaked havoc.The trail report is generally informative as relates to grooming .. but with only 30 trails open, not much a reporter can do to sweeten your coffee.

It is what it is .. ski it by 10:30 or forget it.


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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2022)

Jay, I don't think that peole are blaming the snow reporter for the weather.  It's just this era of super fast tech and information that is to blame.  People look at the apps and actually plan and live their day based on what it says and actually depend on it.  Seems old school people like you and me that just go out no mater what and just ski are few and far between.  It's the world that we live in now.


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## slatham (Jan 6, 2022)

Johnny B said:


> Hey everyone! JB from Sugarbush here, resident PR man. I'm overdue to get involved on here and help answer questions when I can. I think I got so used to Win always doing it I forgot all about these forums!
> 
> On the snow report...It's something I've overseen at Sugarbush for nearly a decade now. I think we can all agree that the old app and snow report layout we had built with our last website worked great. We've always worked to be pretty transparent in our report, and we had a lot of extra stats and details other resorts didn't. With our move to this new app and website, there are definitely some limitations compared to what we used to be able to do. Believe me when I say we've been working hard with Alterra to make improvements where possible. In fact, hopefully pretty soon, you should see some nice layout changes to the main conditions page, removing extraneous icons and info like wind speed (it's never accurate!) and adding in what we feel is more important stuff like easy to locate snowfall totals. While we can't create links or do any sort of formating in our narrative right now (for what it's worth we are NOT on the same version as Stratton - various Alterra resorts are in different phases of the snow report system. I believe Big Bear is on the same version as us), we are working to add some "hot links" up near the top of the report to things like Uphill Travel, Health Guidelines, and an Operational Updates page we're building. Bit by bit, we'll work to improve the report with the resources we've been given. The app is obviously a priority too (for now I recommend you always click the info button in bottom right and view the snow report on web tab).
> 
> ...



Thanks John. I actually came here this morning to comment on how todays narrative was much improved!

Weather pattern has some potential - certainly colder with numerous shots of snow coming up. But no clear indication yet of what we really want, which is a dump! But there are hints at something going into MLK weekend, which would be interesting given how last winter really kicked-off with MLK snows.


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## witchway (Jan 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I am approaching 20.  Most of the people I ski with are 30 plus.  Most of us spend upwards of 5 grand a person per year not to mention the hundreds of converts we have brought before this whole cheap pass thing came around.  To say this is becomming disappointing is an understatment.


We have been pass holders since pre- ASC days.  Many people have stayed with us and skied, some have bought places and made Sugarbush their home mountain.  We watched many kids grow up skiing here.  Later, ours bought the 4 20's pass for a couple of years and would also pick up a quad pass for his friends and other guests.  They are now opting for smaller areas like Gunstock, Ragged, and Sunnapee. I guess that's good for the smaller areas but unfortunate for our family and others like us. They are finding Sugarbush to be too crowded and too expensive to visit even with my IKON discount.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 6, 2022)

witchway said:


> We have been pass holders since pre- ASC days.  Many people have stayed with us and skied, some have bought places and made Sugarbush their home mountain.  We watched many kids grow up skiing here.  Later, ours bought the 4 20's pass for a couple of years and would also pick up a quad pass for his friends and other guests.  They are now opting for smaller areas like Gunstock, Ragged, and Sunnapee. I guess that's good for the smaller areas but unfortunate for our family and others like us. They are finding Sugarbush to be too crowded and too expensive to visit even with my IKON discount.


I havent found crowding to be an issue at sugarbush in the Ikon era.  That's not to say there havent been days when its crowded, but that was true pre icon also.
I also wouldnt put gunstock ragged and sunnapee in the same category as sugarbush.  My daughter is going to Stowe this weekend and had to get a ticket using the epic discount and its the same thing as Icon, somewhere around $130.


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## witchway (Jan 6, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I havent found crowding to be an issue at sugarbush in the Ikon era.  That's not to say there havent been days when its crowded, but that was true pre icon also.
> I also wouldnt put gunstock ragged and sunnapee in the same category as sugarbush.  My daughter is going to Stowe this weekend and had to get a ticket using the epic discount and its the same thing as Icon, somewhere around $130.


Definitely not in the same category as Sugarbush, just a less expensive option.  I do think that Sugarbush has gotten busier especially on Saturdays since becoming a full IKON mountain.  Other than Stratton we are the only unlimited IKON option in the east.


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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I havent found crowding to be an issue at sugarbush in the Ikon era.  That's not to say there havent been days when its crowded, but that was true pre icon also.
> I also wouldnt put gunstock ragged and sunnapee in the same category as sugarbush.  My daughter is going to Stowe this weekend and had to get a ticket using the epic discount and its the same thing as Icon, somewhere around $130.


Howie, so far the IKON era has been two covid years with very sub-par conditions.  I have skied pretty much every weekend and some good weeks and have seen the pulse.  You would have thought the numbers would have been lower but they have not.  Last year the woods were over-run with people like nothing I have seen before.  I would wait until the Covid veil is lifted and it snows before I pass judgement.  I will bet you a weekend's worth of beer you will change your opinion.


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## hovercraft (Jan 6, 2022)

Ikon or Epic, both cheap passes = overcrowded mountains.  Bring back the good old days when you spent more money for the pass with less people on the mountain.  That is where the value was.


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## mikec142 (Jan 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Jay, I don't think that peole are blaming the snow reporter for the weather.  It's just this era of super fast tech and information that is to blame.  People look at the apps and actually plan and live their day based on what it says and actually depend on it.  Seems old school people like you and me that just go out no mater what and just ski are few and far between.  It's the world that we live in now.


I think that's fair to some degree.  For me personally, I live 300+ miles from SB.  Until last year I was using quad packs to keep costs down but was always hesitant to burn a quad pack ticket (or four tickets if the family was joining me) for marginal (or worse) conditions.  These days I have an Ikon pass, but its important to me to have good information on the conditions before I commit to driving 600 miles for the weekend.  Also, I typically leave before the end of the work day on Friday so that's a consideration as well and clear information helps me make the decision to head up or not.


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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I think that's fair to some degree.  For me personally, I live 300+ miles from SB.  Until last year I was using quad packs to keep costs down but was always hesitant to burn a quad pack ticket (or four tickets if the family was joining me) for marginal (or worse) conditions.  These days I have an Ikon pass, but its important to me to have good information on the conditions before I commit to driving 600 miles for the weekend.  Also, I typically leave before the end of the work day on Friday so that's a consideration as well and clear information helps me make the decision to head up or not.


Mike you are right.  There are multiple reasons for accurate information on both the app and the website.


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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2022)

OK just constructive critisim for today.  The report on both the website and app says the summit lift is open but it shows Rim Run, FIS and Black Diamond are closed.  I think it would be really hard to get down from the top is one of those 3 trails were not open.  No?


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## Lotso (Jan 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> OK just constructive critisim for today.  The report on both the website and app says the summit lift is open but it shows Rim Run, FIS and Black Diamond are closed.  I think it would be really hard to get down from the top is one of those 3 trails were not open.  No?


Good catch...that would be quite the trick...
Also- Listing the (for now)  unskiable woods areas on the 'open' filter is silly and misleading.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Howie, so far the IKON era has been two covid years with very sub-par conditions.  I have skied pretty much every weekend and some good weeks and have seen the pulse.  You would have thought the numbers would have been lower but they have not.  Last year the woods were over-run with people like nothing I have seen before.  I would wait until the Covid veil is lifted and it snows before I pass judgement.  I will bet you a weekend's worth of beer you will change your opinion.


I'll take your beer but I think we're saying the same thing.  We haven't seen it get too crowded to date.  Maybe that's because of covid and/or crappy conditions, and that may change in the future, but so far, the crowing hasnt been overwhelming since going full Ikon.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 6, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Ikon or Epic, both cheap passes = overcrowded mountains.  Bring back the good old days when you spent more money for the pass with less people on the mountain.  That is where the value was.


would be nice to know what the actual numbers are.
last weekend there were a ton of cars in the lots and early, not a lot of terrain/lifts open and yet it still didnt seem to me to be "crowded".  lift lines were reasonable.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 6, 2022)

Does anyone have any info on the Advanced Adult Lesson Series? I am wondering who will be teaching it and whether I would be a good fit.  I have skied diamonds at all the mountains I frequent. Skyward at Whiteface and Claire’s way at Hunter were the gnarliest… but I was with an instructor who coached me along on the toughest spots. I will also ask my people who work at ski and ride… but looking for additional perspectives here. I tend to avoid the double diamonds when it’s icy. I may struggle in ungroomed conditions.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 6, 2022)

jaybird said:


> Seems that in times of low snowfall, it is often the snow report and reporters that end up taking the blame. That's just nuts. Anyone with a browser or window should know by now that there has been sparse natural and thaws have wreaked havoc.The trail report is generally informative as relates to grooming .. but with only 30 trails open, not much a reporter can do to sweeten your coffee.
> 
> It is what it is .. ski it by 10:30 or forget it.



I actively blame skiology Matt for the shit snow even if that is ridiculous. Fuck that guy with his hyping of the gfs 10+ days out to hordes who don’t even know how to read a weather map


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## tumbler (Jan 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I actively blame skiology Matt for the shit snow even if that is ridiculous. Fuck that guy with his hyping of the gfs 10+ days out to hordes who don’t even know how to read a weather map


He's probably getting paid by areas to hype and drive people to ski.  All I know of him is from here, I'm not on the Myface.


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## Hawk (Jan 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I actively blame skiology Matt for the shit snow even if that is ridiculous. Fuck that guy with his hyping of the gfs 10+ days out to hordes who don’t even know how to read a weather map


LOL  That is great.  I was wondering if that topic would boil over into other threads.  I have no Idea who he is but reading the back and fouth made me crindge.  He can't be trusted.  HA   might as well blame someone.  But I have a feeling the pattern is going to chance and we will be better.  Just using the law of averages.


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## WinS (Jan 6, 2022)

slatham said:


> Thanks John. I actually came here this morning to comment on how todays narrative was much improved!
> 
> Weather pattern has some potential - certainly colder with numerous shots of snow coming up. But no clear indication yet of what we really want, which is a dump! But there are hints at something going into MLK weekend, which would be interesting given how last winter really kicked-off with MLK snows.


I agree with your comment about the narrative, and I know John had a hand in that yesterday. John is a great member of the team and very competent. With his focus now I would be confident of seeing improvements both in what he can control and getting improvements to the App and Website with his input. He is serious about emailing him directly, so take him up on that. Today’s report still had some errors that were corrected, so it is still a work in progress. I skied ME today. Snowmaking on Rim Run B and C, Looking Good and upper portion of Elbow. Only Rim Run A and Elbow were open and not groomed, but the snow quality was very good, and it will groom out nicely. The other trails need more snow but the temps were going down as the day progressed. I was wrong in my guess at L.P.  They split the snowmaking crew today. Guns and Towers were running on all of Sunrise, and they were lighting up the towers on Murphy‘s. They started on Racer’s Edge but a pipe broke, so they called an audible and moved over to Murphy’s. Land guns are also being set up on Waterfall and Hot Shot.

A lot of the terrain gets firm really fast. The groomers can only do so much so we really need snow. Even a few inches will improve the Trail quality when groomed in.


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## Lotso (Jan 6, 2022)

WinS said:


> I agree with your comment about the narrative, and I know John had a hand in that yesterday. John is a great member of the team and very competent. With his focus now I would be confident of seeing improvements both in what he can control and getting improvements to the App and Website with his input. He is serious about emailing him directly, so take him up on that. Today’s report still had some errors that were corrected, so it is still a work in progress. I skied ME today. Snowmaking on Rim Run B and C, Looking Good and upper portion of Elbow. Only Rim Run A and Elbow were open and not groomed, but the snow quality was very good, and it will groom out nicely. The other trails need more snow but the temps were going down as the day progressed. I was wrong in my guess at L.P.  They split the snowmaking crew today. Guns and Towers were running on all of Sunrise, and they were lighting up the towers on Murphy‘s. They started on Racer’s Edge but a pipe broke, so they called an audible and moved over to Murphy’s. Land guns are also being set up on Waterfall and Hot Shot.
> 
> A lot of the terrain gets firm really fast. The groomers can only do so much so we really need snow. Even a few inches will improve the Trail quality when groomed in.


Another broken pipe...brutal. Holdover from ASC cost-cutting or younger vintage? Shame b/c that still means too many people on SB/SF unless Murphy's/Birdland get covered fast. 

Hang in there and thank you for the candor!!!


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## MisterMagoo (Jan 6, 2022)

WinS, JohnnyB: Has mid-day grooming ever been considered at SB? Seems that closing a trail or 2 for a bit during the day for resurfacing would boost overall customer satisfaction… especially during lean-snow times like we’ve got now.

Just a thought…..

—MM


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## Lotso (Jan 6, 2022)

MisterMagoo said:


> WinS, JohnnyB: Has mid-day grooming ever been considered at SB? Seems that closing a trail or 2 for a bit during the day for resurfacing would boost overall customer satisfaction… especially during lean-snow times like we’ve got now.
> 
> Just a thought…..
> 
> —MM


+1
Gunstock or Crotched used to do this, I think...The Noon Groom

Once LSnowball and RE are done you could close SF pretty easily. Would be huge PR boost. Same for Elbow or Cruiser. Would have to stage cats so you don't have them cruising through customers to get there, but could be done (until you ask the Risk Manager or the lawyers)


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## MadPadraic (Jan 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I am approaching 20.  Most of the people I ski with are 30 plus.  Most of us spend upwards of 5 grand a person per year not to mention the hundreds of converts we have brought before this whole cheap pass thing came around.  To say this is becomming disappointing is an understatment.



My point was just that everyone who commits to SB is in the same boat.  I'm quite sympathetic to your position, but I don't see the 10 year thing as a useful threshold. 

I'm having trouble convincing friends w/o passes to spend the money on a day ticket. My friends on Epic see a walk-up price at SB as being about 1/3rd of their pass and can't stomach the cost.  We have nieces and nephews who are at the age to start snowboarding, but the current mountain alignments prevent it (specific but a real PIA).


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2022)

Lotso said:


> +1
> Gunstock or Crotched used to do this, I think...The Noon Groom
> 
> Once LSnowball and RE are done you could close SF pretty easily. Would be huge PR boost. Same for Elbow or Cruiser. Would have to stage cats so you don't have them cruising through customers to get there, but could be done (until you ask the Risk Manager or the lawyers)


They used to do a noon groom at SB for a brief time.  On Gatehouse side IIRC.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 6, 2022)

There is a decent bit of extra effort to a Noon Groom - if you do it right you need patrollers to sweep and block trails, you have to have cats staged and kept warm or shuttled over with an escort, it can cause traffic problems while it's closed, and then you probably want to put the cats back in the barn so more patrol work there. It's certainly not insurmountable but it's not trivial either, especially if patrol and ops are shorthanded. In the Southeast a lot of resorts used to fully close down from 4:30-6PM and then reopen with fresh till on basically the whole mountain for night skiing, but they could set up the whole operating schedule around it and it's a lot easier to control access to one trail pod with one main access point.


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## teleo (Jan 6, 2022)

My take on Ikon is it crowds powder days more as ikon holders follow the snow more than individual mountain season passes ever did. Agree that with covid we have not seen the real affect yet.  I'm worried about what will happen.


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## shadyjay (Jan 6, 2022)

During the winter 2008/2009 (or maybe the year after), there was a midday groom on Birch Run and Sleeper.  It didn't last more than that one season.  Sleeper is really the only base area trail you could do it with since there is the back door to the maintenance area where the groomers are kept... otherwise you're driving groomers behind the base lodge, and that's never a good thing, espec on a busy weekend/holiday period.  Regarding Spring Fling, there's no easy access midday between the maintenance lot and the trail.  If you really wanted to do it, you could stash a groomer way off to skier's left at the bottom (below Moonshine but above Coffee Run), but you'd probably have to put up some substantial barricades or something to keep the skiers away.  

When looking at a midday groom, you also have to not just close the trail, but keep people away.  A simple "closed" rope isn't going to cut it... you need a couple patrollers at that rope explaining why the trail is closed.  And then there's the woods areas... Deeper sleeper is in between Hot Shot and Sleeper and we all know that you enter/exit the woods from a designated open trail, right?  So the same problem could crop up with Eden... popping out onto Spring Fling, while its being groomed.  Not the greatest.

Groomers are very dangerous machines and they need to be respected by all.  Its best to keep them off the hill during business hours, and hope that after-hours uphill/downhill traffic, as well as other employees keep their distance during off-hours.  (Unfortunately, this came up at another ski area in New England recently, with tragic results.  My condolences to all involved).


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## Keelhauled (Jan 6, 2022)

Vail and Beaver Creek used to do a noon groom, which led to skiers following close behind, and even among, the cats, until the day the inevitable happened, fortunately without fatal results.  The practice ended with that shift and did not resume.


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## urungus (Jan 6, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> Vail and Beaver Creek used to do a noon groom, which led to skiers following close behind, and even among, the cats, until the day the inevitable happened, fortunately without fatal results.  The practice ended with that shift and did not resume.


Tragically there was a fatal result just this week at Jiminy Peak.  Not related to a mid-day groom in this case, but illustrates the danger.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 6, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Whales on Pushover..... that is DEFINITELY something that should be mentioned in the snow report.  Especially since the app doesn't show grooming status on trails.   A mention of no easier route open from the top of Gate House may be important information to pass along.
> 
> I did get a good laugh on Monday's report when it said things were going to "soften up".  It was in the 20s down here in CT on Monday.   Given the freeze/thaws and lack of natural lately, I think I'm going to delay my visit up there until early March.  I can't imagine going to Mt Ellen and not being able to lap some of my favorite runs off Summit/NRE.  In lean snow years in the early 90s during the Christmas/NYE holiday, Lincoln Peak had minimal trails open (picture what was open on GH side this year + Downspout + Spring Fling... that's it), while Mt Ellen had pretty much all of its snowmaking-capable trails open.  Mt Ellen was the early/late season mtn too, so you started with Summit and worked down.


I learned to ski in 2018-2019 and whales combined with low visibility made me totally nauseous! Some folks want to play on the whales and others want to avoid them at all costs. Whales info on the snow report is appreciated… as well as recommendations such as “trail X is firm and fast! Sharpen your skis or sharpen your skills with a lesson and get after it”. There’s still a way to inspire a little stoke even in sub par conditions. Nobody hits 50+ days of skiing in VT if they only ski on pow days.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 7, 2022)

Wait until it snows and then see how big the crowds are nowhere to run nowhere to hide


teleo said:


> My take on Ikon is it crowds powder days more as ikon holders follow the snow more than individual mountain season passes ever did. Agree that with covid we have not seen the real affect yet.  I'm worried about what will happen.





NYSnowflake said:


> I learned to ski in 2018-2019 and whales combined with low visibility made me totally nauseous! Some folks want to play on the whales and others want to avoid them at all costs. Whales info on the snow report is appreciated… as well as recommendations such as “trail X is firm and fast! Sharpen your skis or sharpen your skills with a lesson and get after it”. There’s still a way to inspire a little stoke even in sub par conditions. Nobody hits 50+ days of skiing in VT if they only ski on pow days.


You don’t know the Mohr family ?


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 7, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> Wait until it snows and then see how big the crowds are nowhere to run nowhere to hide
> 
> 
> You don’t know the Mohr family ?


Mohr family? No… is there a joke here I am missing?


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## Blurski (Jan 7, 2022)

1dog said:


> Its the 21st century and we are low on available power. . . .that amazes me.
> We have ability to develop hydro, nuclear, nat. gas ( at less than half the carbon issue as other fossil fuels), as well as coal and oil for back up ( like what was used at COP21 when the wind farms failed)
> If its price, one can understand not paying the price, but when its limited by the power company because they can't generate enough - that just seems like  we are in a time warp.
> Wonder what the kilowatt usage is compared to last 5-7 years for the state of Vermont.
> ...


VT, decided to close the only Nuc power plant that VT received power from, as far as i know without opening up a new power plant.


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Mohr family? No… is there a joke here I am missing?


Emily Johnson and Brian Mohr.  They are a VT institution. Google them.  They are know for skinning and skiing all over VT and actuall the world.  They are responcible for many of the Iconic snow photos you see in VT publications.  They ski a lot of Pow.

Ember Photography

Brian Mohr Insta


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2022)

Go to the Ember website to Gallery and look at VT Skiing for some good stoke and an idea of what they ski.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2022)

thius morning the view conditions button brings me to a totally blank page.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 7, 2022)

You know we definitely need snow when people are debating the merits of a mid day groom at Sugarbush


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thius morning the view conditions button brings me to a totally blank page.


The website is working fine for me...


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thius morning the view conditions button brings me to a totally blank page.


That happens to me everyday.  I think it is an issue with the browser.  I just refresh several times and It comes up.


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## Hawk (Jan 7, 2022)

At lease it is white now.  Maybe an inch or two.  Headed out soon after my last call.


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## Lotso (Jan 7, 2022)

Great to see some natural snow trails opening up...I imagine it's rugged, but that's what rock skis are for!

Would be great if web cams could be cleaned off once in a while...just sayin'. ME and Allyn's ones are iced over


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2022)

MisterMagoo said:


> WinS, JohnnyB: Has mid-day grooming ever been considered at SB? Seems that closing a trail or 2 for a bit during the day for resurfacing would boost overall customer satisfaction… especially during lean-snow times like we’ve got now.
> 
> Just a thought…..
> 
> —MM


Shady gave a detailed and accurate answer. We did groom on Sleeper for awhile, but it was logistically challenging and we concluded not worth continuing. An additional reason other than what Shady said is the difficulty of preventing someone from coming out of the woods onto the trail even if the trail is roped off. One could enter Deeper Sleeper and pop out right in front of a groomer on Sleeper. A few year again Vail had a young child killed by a mid-day groomer.


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## shadyjay (Jan 7, 2022)

Hawk said:


> That happens to me everyday.  I think it is an issue with the browser.  I just refresh several times and It comes up.



Yeah its a daily occurrence for me as well.  Refreshing doesn't always work.  I have to be ready to click on "VIEW MORE" on the Conditions text and then I get it.  

Another app glitch... if you try to click INFO at bottom right, then "Snow Report on Website", it takes you to a snow report from this past Monday.  I tried to use this workaround to view what's been groomed or where snowmaking is taking place, and then I noticed the report it was linking me to was 5 days old.  This could really confuse someone.


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## WinS (Jan 7, 2022)

That is r


shadyjay said:


> Yeah its a daily occurrence for me as well.  Refreshing doesn't always work.  I have to be ready to click on "VIEW MORE" on the Conditions text and then I get it.
> 
> Another app glitch... if you try to click INFO at bottom right, then "Snow Report on Website", it takes you to a snow report from this past Monday.  I tried to use this workaround to view what's been groomed or where snowmaking is taking place, and then I noticed the report it was linking me to was 5 days old.  This could really confuse someone.


That is really strange. I never have these problems. Just got the newest I-phone. The issue I sometimes face when clicking on a web cam is getting another Sugarbush You Tube video. But hitting “X” in upper left and then clicking on gets the correct view. I did pass this along a few weeks ago. Email John B with the specifics of what you are encountering. By the way, the snow first run on Birch was exquisite (no hyperbole). Good quality snowmaking, sat the right amount of  time and groomed out beautifully. I think they did a couple of grooms to get it that creamy. I was second one down until I passed him and then enjoyed first runs for,the second half. Not siire how it held up but I did enjoy my two runs before moving on. I think it will groom out really nicely tonight with the Nor’Incher we received today. Bet I will see Hawk at First tracks tomorrow.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 7, 2022)

WinS said:


> That is r
> 
> That is really strange. I never have these problems. Just got the newest I-phone. The issue I sometimes face when clicking on a web cam is getting another Sugarbush You Tube video. But hitting “X” in upper left and then clicking on gets the correct view. I did pass this along a few weeks ago. Email John B with the specifics of what you are encountering. By the way, the snow first run on Birch was exquisite (no hyperbole). Good quality snowmaking, sat the right amount of  time and groomed out beautifully. I think they did a couple of grooms to get it that creamy. I was second one down until I passed him and then enjoyed first runs for,the second half. Not siire how it held up but I did enjoy my two runs before moving on. I think it will groom out really nicely tonight with the Nor’Incher we received today. Bet I will see Hawk at First tracks tomorrow.


Thanks for the update! I can’t wait to ski Birch Run again when I get back up to SB!


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## MisterMagoo (Jan 7, 2022)

Thx WinS, Shady and others for your insights and thoughts on midday grooming.

— MM


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## Lotso (Jan 8, 2022)

Nice change in view on the Walt's ME cam! Much nicer to look at the summit than across the flat...


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## cdskier (Jan 8, 2022)

Lower half of ME was surprisingly firm this morning. I'm thinking windblown after being groomed...

The top half was quite nice though...Rim Run to Elbow was great. Lower Rim Run under the guns was nice too. Good quality snow being made (although considering the temps, you'd hope that's the case). Definitely need some natural snow though...


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## Zand (Jan 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Lower half of ME was surprisingly firm this morning. I'm thinking windblown after being groomed...
> 
> The top half was quite nice though...Rim Run to Elbow was great. Lower Rim Run under the guns was nice too. Good quality snow being made (although considering the temps, you'd hope that's the case). Definitely need some natural snow though...


How were Black Diamond, Exterminator, and Bravo? Saw they're open ungroomed. Willing to bring some rock skis up.


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## shadyjay (Jan 8, 2022)

Given the fact that trails like HG Traverse, Reverse Traverse, and Northway aren't open yet, and they're usually some of the first natural trails to open... I can't imagine how much snow is on those 3.  Black Diamond is a little protected, Exterminator not as much.  

But I could be wrong...


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## foofy (Jan 8, 2022)

Zand said:


> How were Black Diamond, Exterminator, and Bravo? Saw they're open ungroomed. Willing to bring some rock skis up.


Black Diamond was bony and popular - bring rock skis or your A game.  I had fun lapping Exterminator...chalky powder mixed with cut up ice crust...rock skis still a good idea.  Didn't try Bravo but from afar looked more skied off.

Lower mountain ice a bit terrifying late afternoon.


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## Smellytele (Jan 9, 2022)

Just about everything on windhold.


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## Lotso (Jan 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Just about everything on windhold.


Looks like freezing rain...probably tough to see


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## Smellytele (Jan 9, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Looks like freezing rain...probably tough to see


Actually now it is frozen. Stuff bouncing. Wind is the issue right now.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 9, 2022)

Glad i stayed home


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## pinnoke (Jan 9, 2022)

10:33 AM: We are wrapping up this weekend with possible snow flurries in the morning that may turn into mixed precipitation as the day moves forward. Temperatures today should be in the mid-20s and 30s with the potential for windy conditions at the peak. Sugarbush PARKS crew has upped the number of features on Riemergasse to a total of 73 and added a small park on Slowpoke with 5 features to hit. Groomers were out and about last night to repack the snow and give us fresh corduroy turns this morning. Snowmakers are continuing to help refresh some of our favorite runs as well as prepare new terrain for us to enjoy in the future. With the forecasted weather we should see crisp turns this morning that will likely loosen up as the day continues. Due to heavy winds Heaven's Gate, Super Bravo, GMX, Inverness, Sunshine, North Lynx, Village, and Summit quad are on wind hold temporarily. Currently, Valley House and Gatehouse are open to the public and hiking will be available at Heaven's Gate starting at 9am.

NOT THE REPORT I WOULD ISSUE. Obviously, the wind holds, etc., would be the lead. Any "fresh corduroy turns this morning" might have been only for 'early ups'. Driving was treacherous. The web/app report as well as phone ought to be updated with current and accurate info!


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## TSQURD (Jan 9, 2022)

Its been updated:

“1/9/22, 11:29 AM
11:28 AM: Due to heavy winds Heaven's Gate, Super Bravo, GMX, Inverness, Sunshine, North Lynx, Village, and Summit quad are on wind hold temporarily. Currently, Valley House is open to the public and hiking will be available at Heaven's Gate starting at 9am. We are wrapping up this weekend with possible snow flurries in the morning that may turn into mixed precipitation as the day moves forward. Temperatures today should be in the mid-20s and 30s….”


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## erdb1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Is there any update on North Ridge Express? Yesterday I asked one of the lift operators, he said he didn't know why it's not running. They can't blame the snow anymore. I saw no obvious sign of any work being done on it. 

A somewhat frustrated de-Valued pass  passholder would love to know...


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## WinS (Jan 9, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Is there any update on North Ridge Express? Yesterday I asked one of the lift operators, he said he didn't know why it's not running. They can't blame the snow anymore. I saw no obvious sign of any work being done on it.
> 
> A somewhat frustrated de-Valued pass  passholder would love to know...


I posted a few weeks ago about this. Over the summer 5 lifts were hit with lightning with NR the worst. There was a lot of damage to the electrical system. The last I heard was the electrical issues have been resolved including a new PLC. There were a few more mechanical repairs to go. The. The tram authority need to,come to inspect and a load rest will be required. You can see the barrels lined up for that. One other complication with NR is that it is a Poma Lift and Les Otten had Doplemayr more it to the current position so they is a bit of “who is responsible to help,with repairs.” A couple of years ago we replaced the drive in NR, put in a new communication line and rewired all the tower. So the electrical system is now Dopplemayrs, but the mechanical parts are still Poma. I would, or be at all surprised if there are supply chain issues with lift parts too. I will see if I can get a update tomorrow when I am around the mountain.

A couple of years ago a similar strike hit GMX and we had to run on diesel the entire winter. The insurance company finally approved a new drive but that did not happen until spring.  As you are all witnessing the weather volatility has increased and creating a lot of challenges for the mountain team. 

I actually had three nice runs off of VH and one down Sleeper first  before the freezing rain hit just after 9am. Called it quits then.the wind walking in this morning was fierce and  interestingly it was calm in East Warren.


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2022)

I woke up this morning, made breakfast, saw all the windholds starting to be announced and went back to sleep. I heard the wind howling all night long so wasn't surprised at the windholds.


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## cdskier (Jan 9, 2022)

TSQURD said:


> Its been updated:
> 
> “1/9/22, 11:29 AM
> 11:28 AM: Due to heavy winds Heaven's Gate, Super Bravo, GMX, Inverness, Sunshine, North Lynx, Village, and Summit quad are on wind hold temporarily. Currently, Valley House is open to the public and hiking will be available at Heaven's Gate starting at 9am. We are wrapping up this weekend with possible snow flurries in the morning that may turn into mixed precipitation as the day moves forward. Temperatures today should be in the mid-20s and 30s….”


I still think they were putting a bit too much positive spin on the precip that was falling/predicted. It was mixed precip from at least 6:30AM this morning when I woke up. So by the time of the first update this morning, the whole "possible snow flurries turning to mixed precip" line was already a bit too much wishful thinking.


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Jan 9, 2022)

we had a few flakes around 5:30am (Fayston at 1400'), then no precip on the hill until around 9:30, then freezing rain, then nothing, then sleet around 11, then freezing rain, then nothing. The report wasn't that far off for a very variable day (Accuweather wasn't any better) But we did have wind, then wind, then more wind then big wind. Having only Valley house open was a challenge. Afternoon actually improved a bit. No precip, Gate House opened around 1. By afternoon it was a Blazers playground as it seemed they were the only ones skiing. But the wind! Micro Blazers program never went back outside...the kids kept being blown over. on a moderatley positive note, some seriously good snowmaking weather coming in...stupid cold. Is there something like a tip jar for the snowmakers? the next 7 hours are going to be brutal.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

Yesterday the APP (unlike the webpage) was showing lifts open even though they were on wind hold.  As far as the webpage goes, I wish they could sort out the loading problems when going directly to the conditions page.


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## bill-now (Jan 10, 2022)

I just noticed that the two "scenic" webcams (Walts and Allyns Lodge) now change their view periodically. Nice!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

bill-now said:


> I just noticed that the two "scenic" webcams (Walts and Allyns Lodge) now change their view periodically. Nice!


I take it that is on the App only?  I can't find them on the website.


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## Lotso (Jan 10, 2022)

I see it on the website- like the zoom and the movement!

https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/webcams


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## erdb1 (Jan 10, 2022)

WinS said:


> I posted a few weeks ago about this. Over the summer 5 lifts were hit with lightning with NR the worst. There was a lot of damage to the electrical system. The last I heard was the electrical issues have been resolved including a new PLC. There were a few more mechanical repairs to go. The. The tram authority need to,come to inspect and a load rest will be required. You can see the barrels lined up for that. One other complication with NR is that it is a Poma Lift and Les Otten had Doplemayr more it to the current position so they is a bit of “who is responsible to help,with repairs.” A couple of years ago we replaced the drive in NR, put in a new communication line and rewired all the tower. So the electrical system is now Dopplemayrs, but the mechanical parts are still Poma. I would, or be at all surprised if there are supply chain issues with lift parts too. I will see if I can get a update tomorrow when I am around the mountain.
> 
> A couple of years ago a similar strike hit GMX and we had to run on diesel the entire winter. The insurance company finally approved a new drive but that did not happen until spring.  As you are all witnessing the weather volatility has increased and creating a lot of challenges for the mountain team.
> 
> I actually had three nice runs off of VH and one down Sleeper first  before the freezing rain hit just after 9am. Called it quits then.the wind walking in this morning was fierce and  interestingly it was calm in East Warren.


Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution. 

It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


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## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution.
> 
> It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


NR being the Main lift???


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> NR being the Main lift???


I guess it depends how you define "main". When it is running, it is definitely the lift I spend the most time lapping because it access the vast majority of terrain and avoids the runout at the bottom. Covers the most vertical in one shot as well. You can still access everything without that lift running, but it sure cuts into your uphill capacity at ME quite a bit with it being down.


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## Slidebrook87 (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I guess it depends how you define "main". When it is running, it is definitely the lift I spend the most time lapping because it access the vast majority of terrain and avoids the runout at the bottom. Covers the most vertical in one shot as well. You can still access everything without that lift running, but it sure cuts into your uphill capacity at ME quite a bit with it being down.


I take it for granted, but North Ridge is really crucial to the skiing experience at Ellen. You avoid the runout at the base and get to ski the mountain's best terrain on a fast, relatively high capacity lift. Hope it's back up soon.


----------



## erdb1 (Jan 10, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I take it for granted, but North Ridge is really crucial to the skiing experience at Ellen. You avoid the runout at the base and get to ski the mountain's best terrain on a fast, relatively high capacity lift. Hope it's back up soon.


Exactly. Normally I only use GMX to go up in the morning, switch back from Inverness, which is now often closed or when skiing Lower FIS that needs a lot more snow. Plus Summit is much slower than GMX, so the line grows very quickly there.


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## mikec142 (Jan 10, 2022)

New, panning web cams are great!

Other than Slide Brook, what would everyone say is the coldest lift at SB?


----------



## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> New, panning web cams are great!
> 
> Other than Slide Brook, what would everyone say is the coldest lift at SB?


Depends which way the wind is blowing!


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## mikec142 (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Depends which way the wind is blowing!


For sure.  On average tho...

I've had some seriously cold rides on Summit and Super Bravo.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> For sure.  On average tho...
> 
> I've had some seriously cold rides on Summit and Super Bravo.


I wouldn't have put Summit on my list. I feel usually it is pretty well protected from the wind.

Super Bravo tends to be breezy at several points along the way a lot which makes it feel cold more often. So I'd definitely agree with that one.


----------



## Blurski (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution.
> 
> It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


It comes off like PPP=PPP even though the Pandemic has made some simple things difficult.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution.
> 
> It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


Is it really going to be out most of the season????  where did you get that from?
I happened to be chatting with one of lift mechanics while waiting for a sandwich at the paradise last week and he didn't indicate any long term problem with NRX.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution.
> 
> It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


So NRX is down for this season?


----------



## erdb1 (Jan 10, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Is it really going to be out most of the season????  where did you get that from?
> I happened to be chatting with one of lift mechanics while waiting for a sandwich at the paradise last week and he didn't indicate any long term problem with NRX.


I have no idea. I hope not, but I didn't see any work being done on it, and the resort didn't say anything about it either.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So NRX is down for this season?


Where did you get that from? No one has said anything about that. This is exactly how bad rumors spread. We went from waiting on a couple mechanical fixes/parts to someone turning that into down most of the season...to the next person somehow saying down all season.

This is another reason I think it is important for Sugarbush to share updates directly and be completely transparent. To avoid rumors like this...


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Where did you get that from? No one has said anything about that. This is exactly how bad rumors spread. We went from waiting on a couple mechanical fixes/parts to someone turning that into down most of the season...to the next person somehow saying down all season.
> 
> This is another reason I think it is important for Sugarbush to share updates directly and be completely transparent. To avoid rumors like this...


I'd bet it gets inspected and operating before MLK.


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## WinS (Jan 10, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I'd bet it gets inspected and operating before MLK.


Howie, I would bet they will do everything possible to make that happen. Hopefully, it will. Tomorrow will be a tough day to do any line work.


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## WinS (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> Thanks Win, yes I saw your earlier post. I guess I was hoping for a quicker resolution.
> 
> It looks pretty bad that they knew since Summer they had a problem but failed to mention that the main lift at ME will be out for much of the season while people were buying their season passes. I still haven't seen any communication about it from the resort other than your (much appreciated) post here. The crazy thing is that if I had known the NR would be out this long, I would have bought the IKON pass. Now I'm thinking of not coming back at all next year...


It is really impossible to predict how long it will take to fix problems like this. Until you get into the fix, you really do not know what has been impacted and then the problem solving begins. NR is a key lift and lots of us love riding and lapping off to it. But GMX and Summit let one to all the trails. i know that it not what I or most others prefer but it does work.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 10, 2022)

WinS said:


> Howie, I would bet they will do everything possible to make that happen. Hopefully, it will. Tomorrow will be a tough day to do any line work.


Fwiw-I’d imagine lift mechanics and state inspectors are dealing with their share of covid related absences.


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## pinnoke (Jan 10, 2022)

A good day, today. Not too cold (or windy) and very good surfaces, at least on groomed terrain, I didn't ski any 'natural' trails, though ropes continue to be dropped (Lower Morningstar and Lower Paradise amongst them). Impressive amount of snowmaking lighting up Waterfall (plus wherever it's blowing). Recent snowmaking completion on Sunrise and Murphy's should be more inviting once groomed, soon, I'm sure. Birch was very nice today, too, as a couple of grooms have had a positive impact. I almost didn't ski today; I'm happy I did! Nice work, Mountain Ops!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Where did you get that from? No one has said anything about that. This is exactly how bad rumors spread. We went from waiting on a couple mechanical fixes/parts to someone turning that into down most of the season...to the next person somehow saying down all season.
> 
> This is another reason I think it is important for Sugarbush to share updates directly and be completely transparent. To avoid rumors like this...


I asked if it was down for the season.  I did not state that it was.

And I am interested to hear how and when NRX gets resolved.  We've had issues with Alterra out here.  Most recent lift issue was the mechanical failure at Deer Valley on Christmas Eve in which Alterra's first reaction was to blame it on a manufacturing defect in the part so as to deny any responsibility.  Those with the technical knowledge tell me that the issue could have been due to a mistake by DVR installing the component (a misalignment). 

I just hope NRX gets fixed.  Sugarbush deserves better attention.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

WinS said:


> I posted a few weeks ago about this. Over the summer 5 lifts were hit with lightning with NR the worst.



Win, first off I love that you still advocate for the SB with such good intentions.  I'm curious how often lifts get hit by lightning? I assume 5 is high, but I'm surprised (shocked) it happened at all?  Does it happen most summers?


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I asked if it was down for the season.  I did not state that it was.
> 
> And I am interested to hear how and when NRX gets resolved.  We've had issues with Alterra out here.  Most recent lift issue was the mechanical failure at Deer Valley on Christmas Eve in which Alterra's first reaction was to blame it on a manufacturing defect in the part so as to deny any responsibility.  Those with the technical knowledge tell me that the issue could have been due to a mistake by DVR installing the component (a misalignment).
> 
> I just hope NRX gets fixed.  Sugarbush deserves better attention.



There was no logical reason to even ask that question based on any of the statements made so far in this thread about the lift repairs/status...

On a different note, I'm seeing no active snowmaking listed on the report anywhere at Lincoln Peak currently. Another GMP curtailment perhaps?


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## Lotso (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> There was no logical reason to even ask that question based on any of the statements made so far in this thread about the lift repairs/status...
> 
> On a different note, I'm seeing no active snowmaking listed on the report anywhere at Lincoln Peak currently. Another GMP curtailment perhaps?


Has to be. Nearing zero now, will be well below by daybreak.


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## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> There was no logical reason to even ask that question based on any of the statements made so far in this thread about the lift repairs/status...
> 
> On a different note, I'm seeing no active snowmaking listed on the report anywhere at Lincoln Peak currently. Another GMP curtailment perhaps?


Erdb1 did say something about it being down for most of the season


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Erdb1 did say something about it being down for most of the season


That he did.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Erdb1 did say something about it being down for most of the season


Of course that was another comment made with no basis for making it...as Erdb1 admitted in a follow-up post when Howie questioned him about where he heard that. Still a big jump from "most" to "all" even if that post had any basis (which it didn't).

It is one thing to spread a rumor when you at least have some inside or reliable info. It is another thing entirely though to just jump to conclusions with each person jumping to worse and worse conclusions.

The only facts we have are what Win shared...Those facts are that it was hit by lightning in the summer, the electrical issues have been resolved, a few mechanical repairs are pending, and then a load test/inspection needs to be completed (for which barrels are already staged at the loading area of the lift). There would be no need to even talk about a load test if someone at SB didn't think it was going to be fixed and run this year. Granted it is always possible when they fix one thing they find something else that needs repairs, but until we reach that point, it is pointless to speculate about that. The discussion on the NRX issues is a perfect example of how false rumors start...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Of course that was another comment made with no basis for making it...as Erdb1 admitted in a follow-up post when Howie questioned him about where he heard that. Still a big jump from "most" to "all" even if that post had any basis (which it didn't).
> 
> It is one thing to spread a rumor when you at least have some inside or reliable info. It is another thing entirely though to just jump to conclusions with each person jumping to worse and worse conclusions.
> 
> The only facts we have are what Win shared...Those facts are that it was hit by lightning in the summer, the electrical issues have been resolved, a few mechanical repairs are pending, and then a load test/inspection needs to be completed (for which barrels are already staged at the loading area of the lift). There would be no need to even talk about a load test if someone at SB didn't think it was going to be fixed and run this year. Granted it is always possible when they fix one thing they find something else that needs repairs, but until we reach that point, it is pointless to speculate about that. The discussion on the NRX issues is a perfect example of how false rumors start...


Lighten up Francis.  Folks did not say it was closed for the season.  The question was what is the deal.  That’s all.  And historically this board does get legit info from those in the know.  There’s no harm in folks asking and discussing this topic.  It’s not like NRX has historically been a perfectly reliable lift in its 27-year run.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Lighten up Francis.  Folks did not say it was closed for the season.  The question was what is the deal.  That’s all.  And historically this board does get legit info from those in the know.  There’s no harm in folks asking and discussing this topic.  It’s not like NRX has historically been a perfectly reliable lift in its 27-year run.


You might want to re-read the way you phrased your original question. You could have said "So how long is it going to be down?" or "So is there any ETA for the repair being completed?" or "Does anyone have any additional details?", or dozens of other ways to ask "what is the deal". Instead you said:


thetrailboss said:


> So NRX is down for this season?



That's a very different question...


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## erdb1 (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That he did.


I came here asking for an update on NRX. Why would I do that if I knew what's happening with the lift? Sorry if anyone misunderstood my post, I jumped in and clarified immediately that I had no idea how long it's going to be out. And that's the thing - how can SB not say anything about NRX? I understand that weather, Covid, supply chain issues can throw a curveball, but they should have been honest about their problems, especially if they knew about it since the Summer.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

Will the skinny pancake be returning? Is there room for them at the new Ellen base lodge?


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> I came here asking for an update on NRX. Why would I do that if I knew what's happening with the lift? Sorry if anyone misunderstood my post, I jumped in and clarified immediately that I had no idea how long it's going to be out. And that's the thing - how can SB not say anything about NRX? I understand that weather, Covid, supply chain issues can throw a curveball, but they should have been honest about their problems, especially if they knew about it since the Summer.



I don't think they're necessarily not being honest...they're just not communicating at all about this topic officially. We definitely need more transparency, openness and communication on things like this. (Like we had under the previous ownership via things like the Win's Word blog posts on the SB site in addition to the posts here on AZ). I'm glad Win still manages to get us some good info and am keeping my fingers crossed that @Johnny B can start to do the same from time to time now that he's registered here on this forum.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

erdb1 said:


> I came here asking for an update on NRX. Why would I do that if I knew what's happening with the lift? Sorry if anyone misunderstood my post, I jumped in and clarified immediately that I had no idea how long it's going to be out. And that's the thing - how can SB not say anything about NRX? I understand that weather, Covid, supply chain issues can throw a curveball, but they should have been honest about their problems, especially if they knew about it since the Summer.


No worries.  You're good.  Not your fault.


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## hovercraft (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't think they're necessarily not being honest...they're just not communicating at all about this topic officially. We definitely need more transparency, openness and communication on things like this. (Like we had under the previous ownership via things like the Win's Word blog posts on the SB site in addition to the posts here on AZ). I'm glad Win still manages to get us some good info and am keeping my fingers crossed that @Johnny B can start to do the same from time to time now that he's registered here on this forum.


So basically you are saying they aren’t being honest in a nice way


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## jaybird (Jan 10, 2022)

Yikes. 
More proof that thunder follows lightning..  
A detailed explanation from management doesn’t resolve the operational issue(s).
Given multiple challenges, i believe the resort is trying hard to provide the best experience they can.

Sooner or later snow will fall


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> So basically you are saying they aren’t being honest in a nice way


Hah! To me not being honest generally means lying. Saying nothing at all is not necessarily lying. Although I also suppose intent comes into play as well. Are they not saying anything because they were hoping it was going to be fixed before anyone noticed? Or are they not saying anything because they just don't realize they should say something?


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Win, first off I love that you still advocate for the SB with such good intentions.  I'm curious how often lifts get hit by lightning? I assume 5 is high, but I'm surprised (shocked) it happened at all?  Does it happen most summers?


Big metal towers on top of a mountain. From memory it is not unusual and to get hit but five with the intensity of what has happened the past few years is more than the past. They do have lightening protection but it is not perfect - obviously.


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Will the skinny pancake be returning? Is there room for them at the new Ellen base lodge?


Skinny pancake is no longer here. There were in the Farmhouse Lodge (next to ticket windows) at Lincoln Peak but Nomad took their space last year and are back this year. There isn’t space in the ME lodge for them to operate there unless Sugarbush gave them cafeteria or Green Mountain space.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Hah! To me not being honest generally means lying. Saying nothing at all is not necessarily lying. Although I also suppose intent comes into play as well. Are they not saying anything because they were hoping it was going to be fixed before anyone noticed? Or are they not saying anything because they just don't realize they should say something?


My impression is, the lift needs to be inspected, which is not something they can conjure up at the snap of a finger in the best of times.  Given the covid situation, there very well might be a delay of unknown duration to get the inspection.  Hence why the barrels have been sitting there.  I dont think they would have put in the effort to move the barrels there if they knew the lift wasn't going to be operational.  And they can't really say when the inspection is going to get done because they don't know.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 11, 2022)

WinS said:


> Skinny pancake is no longer here. There were in the Farmhouse Lodge (next to ticket windows) at Lincoln Peak but Nomad took their space last year and are back this year. There isn’t space in the ME lodge for them to operate there unless Sugarbush gave them cafeteria or Green Mountain space.


really liked skinny pancake.  family loves the miso hungry hut at Mellon.


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## Lotso (Jan 11, 2022)

Trail count coming up....still thin I am sure on some, but fun to see! ME now just needs the snowmaking love on FIS, Cliffs, and Brambles...I imagine the days of Exterm getting guns going are over, but anyway.

Maybe Stein's lights up soon at LP? Don't know if pipes fixed on REdge.


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## Hawk (Jan 11, 2022)

Below zero and not a single gun running on Lincoln Peak.  I am sure there is another excuse.  Too cold.  LOL


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## Lotso (Jan 11, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Below zero and not a single gun running on Lincoln Peak.  I am sure there is another excuse.  Too cold.  LOL


That is disappointing...


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## hovercraft (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Hah! To me not being honest generally means lying. Saying nothing at all is not necessarily lying. Although I also suppose intent comes into play as well. Are they not saying anything because they were hoping it was going to be fixed before anyone noticed? Or are they not saying anything because they just don't realize they should say something


I wouldn’t want to speculate on their intentions.  I would say if you know that a crucial lift might not be working for an indefinite period of time you might want to mention it.  Just Saying


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I wouldn’t want to speculate on their intentions.  I would say if you know that a crucial lift might not be working for an indefinite period of time you might want to mention it.  Just Saying


I'm in complete agreement there...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Trail count coming up....still thin I am sure on some, but fun to see! ME now just needs the snowmaking love on FIS, Cliffs, and Brambles...I imagine the days of Exterm getting guns going are over, but anyway.
> 
> Maybe Stein's lights up soon at LP? Don't know if pipes fixed on REdge.


I think they removed snowmaking from Exterminator.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I think they removed snowmaking from Exterminator.


The pipes/hydrants are still there. Whether they are connected to the rest of the system I couldn't say though...

Probably been at least 10+ years now since they last made snow there. I'm fine with no snow-making on Exterminator.


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## Lotso (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The pipes/hydrants are still there. Whether they are connected to the rest of the system I couldn't say though...
> 
> Probably been at least 10+ years now since they last made snow there. I'm fine with no snow-making on Exterminator.


Top 30 yards nice to have cover over the rubble; the rest gets filled in pretty well. Lower Exterm (below the cut back to midstation) is one of the nicest cruisers that no one skis, when there is snow on it.


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Below zero and not a single gun running on Lincoln Peak.  I am sure there is another excuse.  Too cold.  LOL



Well now the report says "Snowmaking will be back in the game tonight to help prepare new terrain that we will hopefully have our skis and boards on soon." Not sure what trails they're firing up though as there are no snowmaking symbols in the trail report at LP. I don't know how far they got on the ones they were working on before they stopped last night.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 11, 2022)

Finaly will be there thursday..


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## mikec142 (Jan 11, 2022)

It's been a wildly disappointing season for me so far...Mother Nature has been trampling all over my fun.  The lack of snow.  The freezing rain on Christmas Day.  The past two weekends I haven't been able to get up to VT and even if so, there isn't much snow.  Was planning to take an extra day and make the MLK weekend a four day ski-fest.  Now with the insane temps forecasted, it looks like I'm not even making the trip.  Praying something changes soon.


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Well now the report says "Snowmaking will be back in the game tonight to help prepare new terrain that we will hopefully have our skis and boards on soon." Not sure what trails they're firing up though as there are no snowmaking symbols in the trail report at LP. I don't know how far they got on the ones they were working on before they stopped last night.


They made snow on Cruiser last night which was using all towers. With the brutal temps last night the judgment was not to continue with the land guns on Waterfall and Hot Shot. IMHO that was the right safety call. And the crew needed a rest. Spoke to one Snowmaker who had done 7 days in a row. Shady can tell you what that if like. I did not stay around long enough today  to hear if they will finish WF and HD or move on, but I suspect they will (Guns are still set up there) and then maybe move over to Birdland. Racer’s Edge needs Tatro to get up to repair the broken pipe before they can go to Lower SB and RE.  If that’s the case they could run on Birdland and Stein’s, but it warming up a bit on Thursday before another cold wave comes in Friday afternoon so will have to see what makes the most sense.

I looked at Ski Vermont conditions and we are comparing very favorably with the other VT areas.

Take a look at the Sugarbush snowmaking video submitted to Ski Area Management and vote for it if you like it:

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https://www.saminfo.com/i-am-a-snowmaker&data=04|01|wsmith@sugarbush.com|d26747a36ce84cf86d6f08d9d5172b35|bb43b24f11394bd9821c6cebb99a16cf|0|0|637775117888441217|Unknown|TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0=|3000&sdata=9vV+81SrzxEl7Sc6BO/LZQ/2AO6KUdw/zfEO+oSs2VA=&reserved=0

Point about NR. VT Tram Authority does need to inspect it. There are only three inspectors for the State, so it can take time to get on their schedule. Also since a load test is required this has to be done after operating hours in case a barrel fell off as the lift crosses trails.


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I think they removed snowmaking from Exterminator.


Yes.


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## jaybird (Jan 11, 2022)

Exterminating Exterminator..
Kinda Oxymoronic 

How'd Birch ski today ?


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## cdskier (Jan 11, 2022)

WinS said:


> They made snow on Cruiser last night which was using all towers. With the brutal temps last night the judgment was not to continue with the land guns on Waterfall and Hot Shot. IMHO that was the right safety call. And the crew needed a rest. Spoke to one Snowmaker who had done 7 days in a row. Shady can tell you what that if like. I did not stay around long enough today  to hear if they will finish WF and HD or move on, but I suspect they will (Guns are still set up there) and then maybe move over to Birdland. Racer’s Edge needs Tatro to get up to repair the broken pipe before they can go to Lower SB and RE.  If that’s the case they could run on Birdland and Stein’s, but it warming up a bit on Thursday before another cold wave comes in Friday afternoon so will have to see what makes the most sense.
> 
> I looked at Ski Vermont conditions and we are comparing very favorably with the other VT areas.
> 
> ...


I saw the post on Facebook about the SAM snow-maker contest entry as I was about to eat dinner. Just watched the video (and voted). Do they really have 40 people on the team this year? That's impressive (particularly when you hear some of the horror stories from other resorts about how few people they have in the snow-making department this year).

Also the new pipe on North Star at ME is pretty impressive. I noticed this weekend when I was there that it has all new HKD towers with the HKD Kilk manual hydrants. (Since this contest is sponsored by HKD...they should have had some shots of using those new towers/hydrants at ME in the video!) I knew SB was putting in new pipe on that trail, but didn't realize they were also putting in all new towers with the Klik hydrants as well.


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## WinS (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I saw the post on Facebook about the SAM snow-maker contest entry as I was about to eat dinner. Just watched the video (and voted). Do they really have 40 people on the team this year? That's impressive (particularly when you hear some of the horror stories from other resorts about how few people they have in the snow-making department this year).
> 
> Also the new pipe on North Star at ME is pretty impressive. I noticed this weekend when I was there that it has all new HKD towers with the HKD Kilk manual hydrants. (Since this contest is sponsored by HKD...they should have had some shots of using those new towers/hydrants at ME in the video!) I knew SB was putting in new pipe on that trail, but didn't realize they were also putting in all new towers with the Klik hydrants as well.


I thought they actually started with 50+ and half were returnees which is best in a few years. Attrition after work begins always happens. The Kliks are great. Much faster and easier to get going and requires a smaller crew. We were going to do in this directions,  so I presume it will still be the plan.


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## shadyjay (Jan 12, 2022)

Oh I definitely have had some 7 days+ of snowmaking.  Its rough, especially in these temps.  A trail like HS is even worse, since its 100% land gear and needs constant attention with the liftline.  Most of the hydrants on Waterfall are double hydrants, so you have one gun stretched out ~ 50' on the headwall and the next one is 50' further out.  Then there are the hoses to deal with, and you hope with your positioning that you're not burying the adjacent gun, the hoses, or (worse) the lift.  Nothing is worse than going into lift maintenance in the am and telling them you got a chair.  [[[In fact, I just read a line in a book about 1-1 adjusting a gun that was hitting a chair.... hmmm.....]]].  Its probably the second most challenging trail at LP to make snow on.... Lower Downspout would probably be the worst, with Birch being #3.  

In a typical snow year, Mt Ellen would be done with snowmaking by now and the crews consolidated at Lincoln Peak.  Some years, we were essentially done at LP by Christmas week (with the exception of Stein's and spring-depth increases for SB->Fling) and it was back to lift ops.  I feel for the crew this year, dealing with the ever- changing weather and poor temps, then the push to get it made while the gettin's good.  

[And if you're looking for snowmaking icons on the web site, you're not alone.  I was surprised to read that HS->Waterfall was opening, not realizing they were making snow on it.  There has been no snow icons on any trail at LP recently except Birch and Pushover].


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## IceEidolon (Jan 12, 2022)

Your snowmakers get days off when it isn't above freezing? Is that just a function of staffing enough people to give actual days off - how do you manage full coverage especially of highly experienced positions like shift/team lead and pumphose controllers? My experience has been "If it's snowing or it's below freezing or there's setup/maintenance, you're working." And we'd run clear through mid March that way.


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## dustyroads (Jan 12, 2022)

I walked the dog at the snowmaking pond yesterday and noticed the water was down about 3 to 4 feet. Is that going to be a problem?


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## Lotso (Jan 12, 2022)

Stein's is smoking this morning


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## Hawk (Jan 12, 2022)

There is a storm in the forecast.  I am not going to comment on it other than it is good to see something after so many blank weeks.  lets all pray for snow!  as Herni Burell always says to me.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2022)

im really glad to see it, but worried about a westward shift in the track. the timing is also tricky for anyone trying to ski the holiday weekend.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 12, 2022)

the models will be all over the place with a storm of this magnitude.   Its only Wednesday ...


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## djd66 (Jan 12, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Oh I definitely have had some 7 days+ of snowmaking.  Its rough, especially in these temps.  A trail like HS is even worse, since its 100% land gear and needs constant attention with the liftline.  Most of the hydrants on Waterfall are double hydrants, so you have one gun stretched out ~ 50' on the headwall and the next one is 50' further out.  Then there are the hoses to deal with, and you hope with your positioning that you're not burying the adjacent gun, the hoses, or (worse) the lift.  Nothing is worse than going into lift maintenance in the am and telling them you got a chair.  [[[In fact, I just read a line in a book about 1-1 adjusting a gun that was hitting a chair.... hmmm.....]]].  Its probably the second most challenging trail at LP to make snow on.... Lower Downspout would probably be the worst, with Birch being #3.
> 
> In a typical snow year, Mt Ellen would be done with snowmaking by now and the crews consolidated at Lincoln Peak.  Some years, we were essentially done at LP by Christmas week (with the exception of Stein's and spring-depth increases for SB->Fling) and it was back to lift ops.  I feel for the crew this year, dealing with the ever- changing weather and poor temps, then the push to get it made while the gettin's good.
> 
> [And if you're looking for snowmaking icons on the web site, you're not alone.  I was surprised to read that HS->Waterfall was opening, not realizing they were making snow on it.  There has been no snow icons on any trail at LP recently except Birch and Pushover].


Shady - Thank you for all the info you provide this forum! Its awesome to hear from someone that actually did the work.  Based on your posts, you seem extremely knowledgeable with the current snowmaking system and what it takes to run it.  If you were to make changes to the current system - what would you do? Love to hear where you see shortfalls and easy improvements to the existing system.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

The Sugarbush "I am a Snowmaker" video:  




To vote:  https://www.saminfo.com/i-am-a-snowmaker?start=5


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## shadyjay (Jan 12, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Shady - Thank you for all the info you provide this forum! Its awesome to hear from someone that actually did the work.  Based on your posts, you seem extremely knowledgeable with the current snowmaking system and what it takes to run it.  If you were to make changes to the current system - what would you do? Love to hear where you see shortfalls and easy improvements to the existing system.



What would I do.... hmmmmmm....

Well the replacement of pipe throughout the mountain is #1.  This is slowly being done, but takes time, $$$, and resources.
As far as towers, you really can't convert too many other trails... maybe Murphy's, Birch, and Sunrise, and a few more on Sleeper.   But that's it.  Convert towers/hydrants to the Klik system for a much quicker fireup.  Since you're stuck with ground gear on a lot of trails (Birdland, DS runout, Middle Jester, Upper Jester, etc), you need the manpower to run the system.  And since good snowmakers are hard to come by, incentives for the crew to stay and keep coming back year-after-year.  

Snowmaking is a fight with mother nature.  She's gonna throw curveballs at you and do everything she can so that you don't make snow.  Those things you can't overcome, but you can be more prepared.  It would be awesome to be able to have a gun/hoses stationed at each hydrant, so that you don't have to waste time moving gear to go from one trail to another.  That would require, what, another 100 land guns?  They take up a lot more space than the ratniks did. 
But look how much easier it would be to resurface, without having to set up a trail/move guns around?  We really weren't allowed to do much setup during the day (and for good reason, a snowmobile pulling hoses and guns up and down open trails... ).  Sure, you'd have to worry about the gear getting burried in a snowstorm, but when it did, then you didn't need to make snow.  In the spring, go through and collect all the gear and bring it down for storage.  

Long term, another water source further up the access road.


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## Hawk (Jan 12, 2022)

Thanks Shady.
So baically what we have been saying on here for what, the last 15 years?  Don't worry.  Altera is listening and it's on their radar.


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## WinS (Jan 12, 2022)

dustyroads said:


> I walked the dog at the snowmaking pond yesterday and noticed the water was down about 3 to 4 feet. Is that going to be a problem?


The very cold locks up the streams that feed The Mad River. Sugarbush can only refill when the River in flowing above the February mean flow level. Tomorrow‘s warm-up should cause more flow and allow the lord to refill.


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## WinS (Jan 12, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> What would I do.... hmmmmmm....
> 
> Well the replacement of pipe throughout the mountain is #1.  This is slowly being done, but takes time, $$$, and resources.
> As far as towers, you really can't convert too many other trails... maybe Murphy's, Birch, and Sunrise, and a few more on Sleeper.   But that's it.  Convert towers/hydrants to the Klik system for a much quicker fireup.  Since you're stuck with ground gear on a lot of trails (Birdland, DS runout, Middle Jester, Upper Jester, etc), you need the manpower to run the system.  And since good snowmakers are hard to come by, incentives for the crew to stay and keep coming back year-after-year.
> ...


The last item is the most important and the most expensive. The main pipe running up to the mountain from the pond is 18” in diameter. A new pond could allow another 18” pipe from there (across from the Sugarbush Inn) or 36” from there and the old 18” only refilling the new pond. In the meantime the other items Shady mentioned will hopefully get funded. Not sure about leaving land guns out all season though for a number of reasons including safety and grooming.


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## El Bishop (Jan 13, 2022)

Anyone know what shape the uphill route at Mt. Ellen is in?  It's advertised daily in the snow report but I imagine it's a bit gnarly.


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## Lotso (Jan 13, 2022)

El Bishop said:


> Anyone know what shape the uphill route at Mt. Ellen is in?  It's advertised daily in the snow report but I imagine it's a bit gnarly.


I heard it is "a rubble pile" above the Lower FIS runout


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## El Bishop (Jan 13, 2022)

I think the daytime uphill route idea is fantastic -- just need some snow!


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## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2022)

El Bishop said:


> I think the daytime uphill route idea is fantastic -- just need some snow!


I just can’t find the paper work on line they want you to fill out before hand.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I just can’t find the paper work on line they want you to fill out before hand.


The link is on this page (agreed that it is not very easy to find):





__





						Uphill Travel
					

Learn more about skinning at Sugarbush!




					www.sugarbush.com


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2022)

Can someone please explain to me why you need to apply for an uphill pass if you already have a season pass that releases the mountain from any liability?  It does not may sence to me.  I have skinned up Ellen at lease a half a dozen times and have yet to be stopped or checked.  I didn't realize you needed a pass until recently but until someone stops me I am not going to bother.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Can someone please explain to me why you need to apply for an uphill pass if you already have a season pass that releases the mountain from any liability?  It does not may sence to me.  I have skinned up Ellen at lease a half a dozen times and have yet to be stopped or checked.  I didn't realize you needed a pass until recently but until someone stops me I am not going to bother.



My guess is it is a way for them to get you to acknowledge that you read and understand the uphill policy specifically. At least it is free!


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2022)

You might be right but I think it is overkill.  I have been skinning at Sugarbush for years, before there was such a thing as policy, under the radar, day or night, without incident.  I have sucessfully evaded ski patrol, groomers, sleds, snowmakers, whatever.  Never had an issue and never caused a problem.  Like anything it is the advent of the new un-educated, over stepping people that ruin everything and force policy.

No I will keep doing my covernt thing unti they come get me.  Good luck to them.  ;-)


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## Hawk (Jan 13, 2022)

El Bishop said:


> I think the daytime uphill route idea is fantastic -- just need some snow!


To anwser your question, it is doable right now but will be much improved after Monday's storm.


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## Newpylong (Jan 13, 2022)

A couple comments:

Has Sugarbush run into capacity issues with the 18" pipe from the Mad River up to the base? Granted velocity is usually lower discharging from transfer pumps vs the high pressure distribution pumps, that pipe should still be able to pass >5,000 GPM, which is beyond Lincoln's pumping capacity.

A former night supervisor there mentioned to me there was an injury to a snowmaker on Exterminator a while back and the mountain put the kibosh on making snow there from that point forward. So it doesn't surprise me to hear the line is disconnected. Still odd, there are more dangerous locations to be making snow on that mountain IMO.

As far as capital improvements to gain efficiency, HKD offers a boom solution (of varying lengths) which solves the issue of close clearances where land guns typically have to be used. Where labor has become such a concern, far more efficient than lugging rats or Snow Logics around. Does not solve the issue of expanding reach though, no easy solution there other than putting pipe on both sides of the trail (then having to wait for friendly wind), or using the land guns. Or fans if there are no obstructions.

As far as not making snow in sub zero temps, yes the wet bulb is tempting but there gets to be a point where the risk of freezing equipment (and the crews fight this all night) and personal injury outweigh the benefits. Several mountains did not make snow at all over both negative degree evenings this week for this reason.


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## STREETSKIER (Jan 13, 2022)

I think this uphill travel is a bunch of bullshit
You should be required to have a valid pass
These skinning dorks are annoying
One reason it’s popular is  there s nowhere to skin but a resort ,      backcountry  ha sure  pal take your stuff somewhere real.   Thanks enjoy your day


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## WinS (Jan 13, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> A couple comments:
> 
> Has Sugarbush run into capacity issues with the 18" pipe from the Mad River up to the base? Granted velocity is usually lower discharging from transfer pumps vs the high pressure distribution pumps, that pipe should still be able to pass >5,000 GPM, which is beyond Lincoln's pumping capacity.
> 
> ...


The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to  7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond. 

A Snowmaker was injured a number of years ago but that was not the reason for removing snowmaking from Exterminator. ME has a grandfathered water withdrawal permit that will not allow an expansion of snowmaking. This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day  a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more. 

You are spot on about the reason one might not make snow in really frigid conditions. Running towers on a trail like Cruiser is a very different risk than land guns on Waterfall and Hot Shot.

Another subject. Day 45 and today was my best for far. Birch and Sunrise were superbly groomed. Very soft. Enjoyed Morning Star and a groomed Murphy‘s too, but what made the day were turns down Stein‘s. The snow was across the trail and very dry. It was shut down after 11:30am and glad that happened as the temps were rising and guns would have gotten wet. Today Killington had the most trails  open in VT with 70. Sugarbush was second with 69 (Paradise and Stein‘s were opened after the morning snow report came out). I think that speaks to what the Snowmakers have been doing in really challenging conditions this year.


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## jaybird (Jan 13, 2022)

Sigi woulda loved Stein's today 
Though Stein woulda skipped Sigi's.

Nice crevasse


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 13, 2022)

SB was great today..Steins was the best.


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## Lotso (Jan 13, 2022)

WinS said:


> The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to  7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond.
> 
> A Snowmaker was injured a number of years ago but that was not the reason for removing snowmaking from Exterminator. ME has a grandfathered water withdrawal permit that will not allow an expansion of snowmaking. This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day  a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.
> 
> ...


This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.

Is this is the plan in the near future? Would be great


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2022)

Lotso said:


> This prior capacity on Exterminator could one day we moved to day to day a trail like Walt’s. That would allow for beginner and intermediate skiers to use that pod more.
> 
> Is this is the plan in the near future? Would be great


Hopefully not...Walts is an awesome introduction to natural snow/terrain skiing. 

We've had this debate in the past (maybe a year or 2 ago in this forum). Quite a few people were firmly in the "no snowmaking on Walts" camp.


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## Lotso (Jan 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Hopefully not...Walts is an awesome introduction to natural snow/terrain skiing.
> 
> We've had this debate in the past (maybe a year or 2 ago in this forum). Quite a few people were firmly in the "no snowmaking on Walts" camp.


I wasn't on that debate, but my 2 cents says it could then be open more than it is now with no snowmaking, given its exposure and the water bars. But plenty of green circle terrain at ME, I guess


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 13, 2022)

WinS said:


> The issue with the 18” pipe is you can only get so much volume through it so that is why the max is around 4,500 GMP. Sugarbush should be planning to get to  7,000,or more. It will require more pump capacity too but that is a lesser expense than the pipe and an uphill pond.


Respectfully, couldn't this have been addressed in part when you guys replaced the main line from the pond up to the mountain 5-6 years back?  I thought it strange at the time that the plan was to use the same diameter pipe instead of increasing it to support future needs, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding where the bottleneck is.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2022)

So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...

Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
Overall snowmaking on/off icon is gone (not sure I see the value in getting rid of that one...)
Font being larger also means some stuff is now weirdly formatted...aka:


At least there's some progress/attempts at changes being done though...


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## djd66 (Jan 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...
> 
> Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
> Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
> ...


They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?


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## Lotso (Jan 14, 2022)

djd66 said:


> They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?


Agreed. Silly to have them in there.


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Respectfully, couldn't this have been addressed in part when you guys replaced the main line from the pond up to the mountain 5-6 years back?  I thought it strange at the time that the plan was to use the same diameter pipe instead of increasing it to support future needs, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding where the bottleneck is.


Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately.  We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us  $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before  I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking  capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is_ in process,  but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate._


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## WinS (Jan 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So I see some changes on the snow report page on the website...
> 
> Windchill value is gone (which as Johnny B pointed out was useless anyway as it wasn't accurate)
> Font/text size on the snow report text is larger/easier to read plus it is broken into paragraphs AND they now have links in the verbiage (specifically to the Uphill policy and pass). Of course you still have to click "read more" to see the full text and it still opens an annoying popup.
> ...


Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying


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## cdskier (Jan 14, 2022)

djd66 said:


> They should also get rid of all the woods trails and just have them in a section of their own. Way too much noise with those in the trail report and the status is always NOT PATROLLED. And if the status will always be NOT PATROLLED, why even list them on a trail report, when there is nothing to report?


Yup...put them in their own sections. You can have a "Lincoln Peak Woods" section and a "Mt Ellen Woods" section. They definitely just clutter the report at the moment. Plus it still drives me nuts that woods trails like Eden, Lower Snowball Woods, Fischer Cat, Big Birch, etc are all listed in the "Lincoln Peak" section even though all the trails surrounding those areas are listed in the "Gadd Peak" section.


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## Lotso (Jan 14, 2022)

WinS said:


> Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying





cdskier said:


> Yup...put them in their own sections. You can have a "Lincoln Peak Woods" section and a "Mt Ellen Woods" section. They definitely just clutter the report at the moment. Plus it still drives me nuts that woods trails like Eden, Lower Snowball Woods, Fischer Cat, Big Birch, etc are all listed in the "Lincoln Peak" section even though all the trails surrounding those areas are listed in the "Gadd Peak" section.


Good points. I wonder if the report layout was done by people who are familiar with the mountain, or just looking at a trail map, or if it was ever beta-tested with people who ski there. Or maybe we are that group?
In any case, glad they are making some changes, and getting the clutter of the woods areas out will be a big help.


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## jaybird (Jan 14, 2022)

WinS said:


> Wish they had bragged a bit this morning about having most trails open in VT. Sugarbush 71, Killington 72. Just saying


None of K’s 72 trails skied as well as the black terrain at LP yesterday. Fact not opinion.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Good points. I wonder if the report layout was done by people who are familiar with the mountain, or just looking at a trail map, or if it was ever beta-tested with people who ski there. Or maybe we are that group?
> In any case, glad they are making some changes, and getting the clutter of the woods areas out will be a big help.


This website/app morass is music to my ears.  daughter is cs major graduating this spring.  Apparently, there is big demand for this type of work.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 14, 2022)

WinS said:


> Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately.  We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us  $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before  I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking  capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is_ in process,  but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate._


what size pond we talking about?
Wouldnt it be better to have the pond up higher up like by Inferno road?
I've been following some guy on youtube building a 5 acre bass pond in alabama.  not a small endeavor.


----------



## dustyroads (Jan 14, 2022)

How early does Castlerock Warming Hut, Walt's and Allen's open for warming?


----------



## Lotso (Jan 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> This website/app morass is music to my ears.  daughter is cs major graduating this spring.  Apparently, there is big demand for this type of work.


Beta test using actual humans who relate to the product, in this case, skiers who frequent THAT ski area. Too often it is clear that sites (not just SB/Alterra) are designed by web designers/engineers who have no connection with the product. When that happens, you get user-unfriendly pages.


----------



## teleo (Jan 14, 2022)

Thought of going to K today for variety.  But then realized they have almost no expert terrain open and stayed at SB.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2022)

its kinda typical early season killington offerings but there's plenty of 'expert terrain'. superstar, skyelark, powerline, ridge run, cascade, downdraft, east fall, wildfire. even a couple of glades have opened. its pretty par considering the weather.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jan 14, 2022)

WinS said:


> Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately.  We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us  $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before  I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking  capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is_ in process,  but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate._


Thanks Win.  I haven't always agreed with the decisions you've made, but your transparency here is truly appreciated, and allows us to have a window into some facts/considerations that us armchair QBs don't have outside in.


----------



## jaybird (Jan 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its kinda typical early season killington offerings but there's plenty of 'expert terrain'. superstar, skyelark, powerline, ridge run, cascade, downdraft, east fall, wildfire. even a couple of glades have opened. its pretty par considering the weather.


Open at K ?
The front side is essentially closed.
Cascade, Downdraft, Dipper ..etc.
They appear focused on park features, and like many are dealing with the workforce challenges.

Ridge Run is a light blue .. at best.
Lots of horizontal trails open there..


----------



## WinS (Jan 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> what size pond we talking about?
> Wouldnt it be better to have the pond up higher up like by Inferno road?
> I've been following some guy on youtube building a 5 acre bass pond in alabama.  not a small endeavor.


We were hoping 15-20 million gallons. The existing pond is 25 million but you can not draw down all the way with out sucking up sludge.  The challenged is finding land that has the right soils and works.  We had looked at numerous options and this was the best while I was involved. Sugarbush owns the land and the connect to the mountain is already permitted and soils was been tested. No, it is not a small endeavor.


----------



## WinS (Jan 14, 2022)

dustyroads said:


> How early does Castlerock Warming Hut, Walt's and Allen's open for warming?


When the lifts are open. Downstairs Walt’s is open for bathrooms even when upstairs is closed. Hopefully Castlerock will be open after this storm on Monday. It has a firm base.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 14, 2022)

A Mountain Update Heading Into MLK - SugarBlog
					

With MLK Weekend here, more terrain has opened, events are moving to Sunday, the latest on lifts, and some snow report updates.




					blog.sugarbush.com
				




Nice to see the mention of the North Ridge issues being discussed publicly! Also some mentions of the recent snow report changes/improvements too!


----------



## Johnny B (Jan 14, 2022)

Hey everyone. I see you're quick to notice a few snow report updates that just hit last night. This is one of hopefully many waves, but nice to see some of these take effect before MLK, Most noticeably, we can now actually format and link in our snow report narrative. So you'll see next time you click read more on the conditions page that we have (gasp!) paragraphs and links. Now that we can actually format like we used to, we'll start organizing the report just like "good old days". I'll probably jump in tonight and move some things around. Regarding listing wooded areas, we've been working to get them all listed together at the BOTTOM of each mountain area, like it used to be. I was hoping that fix would hit last night, but it looks like it's still in the works. I agree as is it can be a bit chaotic, but I still think it's worth listing wooded areas in general.

I see that my blog post is already getting shared around. Man you guys are fast! I came here to do just that. Hopefully it sheds some more light on a few areas we've been hearing concerns about. Long story short on North Ridge, hopefully by next weekend.

Now let's get stoked for Monday. Pending some decent snowfall, we could be looking at 100% open sometime next week (C Rock probably hiking).


----------



## jaybird (Jan 14, 2022)

.. " Many people coming from miles around
To hear you play your music when the sun go down
Maybe someday your name will be in lights
Saying "*Johnny B. Goode* tonight" "..

Keep it Up !


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 14, 2022)

Skied Sugarbush earlier today, was real nice out there. They had over 70 trails opened with lots of great terrain available to ski, probably the best in the east right now for expert terrain. I will say though that Stein's was absolutely bulletproof pretty much the whole way down. My wife and son had a tough time but they got down!


----------



## Newpylong (Jan 14, 2022)

WinS said:


> Short answer - maybe but probably not. We had a major break just below Alpine Options and some other minor leaks. This was old used pipe purchased by ASC in Mexico. Our concern was another break that could have been even more severe and stopped snowmaking completely. At time the time the urgency was to fix what we had Immediately.  We replaced the pipe from the pond to Alpine Options. This portion is where the highest pressure occurs and thus the most vulnerable. Subsequently, we began thinking of longer term improvements to address a couple of things. One is the vulnerability of having a snowmaking pond in a flood zone. It was breached once in July when ASC owned Sugarbush and again in August of 2011 when Irene hit, it cost us  $1million to repair (uninsured) and was finished just prior to November. We also discovered that the original weir that is put in each fall to allow withdrawal from The Mad River into the pond was bring compromised by winter ice flows. We have repaired it once but the risk of climate change impact has been growing. Before  I sold we we’re putting together a long-term plan to replace the existing weir with a bladder one that would be deflated after snowmaking and inflated in the fall. It could also be deflated if there were ice jams. Secondly, for insurance if the pond is breached again, we wanted to build a second reservoir out of the flood zone. So far, the improvement we made to the pond in 2011 have held up but I always lost sleep when the River came up. The most logical spot for a second pond was likely the area (old tennis courts) across from the Sugarbush Inn. Then we thought about how to get more snowmaking  capacity. The initial thinking was using the existing pipe fill the pond as well continuing up for snowmaking and putting in a new parallel pipe from the new pond up to the mountain or just putting in a new 36” pipe from the new pond up. We did have an initial preliminary meeting in 2019 with the community to outline this idea. Then Covid hit. I think this is still the long-term idea, but it will require engineering to see what’s viable, permitting after that and a lot of capital. I believe the planning for the new weir is_ in process,  but I have not asked about the status of the rest of this preliminary plan so don’t want to speculate._



I think the engineers would settle on something more like 24" steel or ductile iron which will accommodate 10,000 GPM at industry standard design velocities. This would have to occur in lock step with a capacity upgrade as well. You do not want to use too large a diameter pipe if you're not going to be passing sufficient volume (ie if Lincoln stays where it is or only goes to 7,000 GPM) because you risk freeze ups due to velocity issues. In this respect too little volume in too large a pipe can be as bad or worse than too small a pipe and too much volume. 

Mount Snow and Sunday River both recently installed 24" transfer lines of significant length to each accommodate 10K GPM.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 14, 2022)

So who is going to brave the cold to get some turns in tomorrow? And who’s going to be snuggled up in front of a fire with a dog/cat, and tea/coffee/scotch/bourbon etc. resting up for Monday? 

I run cold, so I won’t be out long tomorrow. My thumb froze this afternoon despite Hestra mittens and hand warmers. Had to go in at 2 to thaw out.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> Skied Sugarbush earlier today, was real nice out there. They had over 70 trails opened with lots of great terrain available to ski, probably the best in the east right now for expert terrain. I will say though that Stein's was absolutely bulletproof pretty much the whole way down. My wife and son had a tough time but they got down!
> 
> View attachment 52681
> View attachment 52683
> ...


Too bad about Steins..I was lucky to hit it right after they blew it...we knew that wouldnt last..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> So who is going to brave the cold to get some turns in tomorrow? And who’s going to be snuggled up in front of a fire with a dog/cat, and tea/coffee/scotch/bourbon etc. resting up for Monday?
> 
> I run cold, so I won’t be out long tomorrow. My thumb froze this afternoon despite Hestra mittens and hand warmers. Had to go in at 2 to thaw out.


Little trick i use..1 handwarmer in the main part of the mitt...and 1 in the thumb..works great..


----------



## NYSnowflake (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Little trick i use..1 handwarmer in the main part of the mitt...and 1 in the thumb..works great..


I don’t think there’s room in the thumb for a handwarmer but I will give it a try!


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Too bad about Steins..I was lucky to hit it right after they blew it...we knew that wouldnt last..



Yea that was lucky. Stein's is one of my favorite trails in the east especially when the conditions are good but yesterday around mid-morning the trail was brutal.

They skied down the Tower 3 Chute at Jackson last year which is substantially steeper and narrower than Stein's. The difference though was that the Tower 3 Chute had a foot of fresh snow laying on it Stein's conditions yesterday were similar to a skating rink.


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## jaybird (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Too bad about Steins..I was lucky to hit it right after they blew it...we knew that wouldnt last..


Yeah, not surprising lower steins turned titanium. 
The multiple descents Thursday AM were our best of the season .. no question 
Curious, did they pack in the crevasse up top ?
Have never seen a fracture there.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 15, 2022)

jaybird said:


> Yeah, not surprising lower steins turned titanium.
> The multiple descents Thursday AM were our best of the season .. no question
> Curious, did they pack in the crevasse up top ?
> Have never seen a fracture there.



They must have, I didn’t notice and crevasses up top. As a matter of fact the top skied much better than the mid and lower sections of the run.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> I don’t think there’s room in the thumb for a handwarmer but I will give it a try!


Try it..mine are  large gloves..or just 2 warmers in the mitt..toasty...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

The top of steins was like a western type drop in..
Skating rink..yup did that last sesson..in between the moguls..1 and done


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## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2022)

Hopefully noaa forecasts are wrong - they are showing mixing on Monday all the way up to Jay


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## Tonyr (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The top of steins was like a western type drop in..
> Skating rink..yup did that last sesson..in between the moguls..1 and done


I watched multiple people fall on Stein's yesterday and they could not stop the slid. One guy yard saled near the top and wasn't able stop himself until he got about half way down the run. It was actually kind of unnerving to witness.


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## Lotso (Jan 15, 2022)

NOAA, 1700' elly:

*Sunday Night*
Snow likely, mainly after 4am. Increasing clouds, with a low around 9. Wind chill values as low as -6. South wind 10 to 17 mph. Chance of precipitation is 60%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.
*M.L.King Day*
Snow before noon, then sleet. High near 30. Windy, with an east wind 27 to 32 mph decreasing to 17 to 22 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 45 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow and sleet accumulation of 3 to 7 inches possible.

Hmmmmm


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

Reports like this are rarely right for mountain conditions


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## rocks860 (Jan 15, 2022)

Looks like I’ll be going up to eagles feb 5-12 (was the only week I could trade for). Heres to hoping for a snowy rest of the month


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## mikec142 (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Too bad about Steins..I was lucky to hit it right after they blew it...we knew that wouldnt last..


I honestly don't get Steins.  How could it become bulletproof overnight?  Win said it skied great the day before. 

I may get flamed for this, but I've said it before.  IMHO, Steins has a legendary reputation and yet I avoid it for the most part as I rarely find it in good condition.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

Wet snow..temps dropped quite a bit
The top and bottom guns were on blowing pretty wet stuff..


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

Anyone ski today?
Crowds?
Deciding between stowe and here for tommorow


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## TSQURD (Jan 15, 2022)

Skied mid day for a couple hours.  Cold. HG was on wind hold all day, I think GMX was too. No lines, no one on the trails.  Conditions as expected given the weather - everything was firm and scratchy.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 15, 2022)

Sounds better than the shitshow at stowe
Guess ill hit sb tomorrow..


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## TSQURD (Jan 15, 2022)

Full disclosure - A lot of skis on the racks today, so im expecting something closer to a typical holiday weekend crowd tomorrow.


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## Lotso (Jan 15, 2022)

I think tomorrow will be excellent. Very cold right off, but by late morning, much better. No idea on crowds, but Sundays are never as bad as Saturdays, even on MLK weekend. 

Pats fans will be sleeping in after the game going late...


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Anyone ski today?
> Crowds?
> Deciding between stowe and here for tommorow


Today was empty (I just drove up today so didn't ski, but had drinks with people that did at Castlerock once I got up here). This has nothing to do with what could happen tomorrow though. I'm thinking it'll be decently crowded with people making up for not going out today. Although who knows...


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## SkiTheEast (Jan 15, 2022)

We're up here now, definitely the holiday feel around the valley...suspect tomorrow will be decently busy given how many people passed on today.  Our condo complex is packed and all of the usual restaurants seem quite full (relative to last few weekends).  There were even like 15 cars in the Alpine Options parking lot just before closing so figure a good amount of people gearing up.


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## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2022)

Lotso said:


> I think tomorrow will be excellent. Very cold right off, but by late morning, much better. No idea on crowds, but Sundays are never as bad as Saturdays, even on MLK weekend.
> 
> Pats fans will be sleeping in after the game going late...


Pats fans can go to bed early tonight.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

At least SB has lifts spread out.. its why I like Gore as well...Big line on one..find another...


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## Hawk (Jan 16, 2022)

I ventured over to Sunday River this weekend to ski with my sister and the family.  As I have always said, they are snowmaking gods.  Tremendous conditions of expertly blown and groomed man made snow.  Trails open everywhere with very little ice.  Refreshing after 3 weeks of technical training on Ripcord and Organgrinder.  I did 4 top to bottom White Heats for old time sake.  Felt good to rip that trail once again.  No lines  good weekend but really cold.  One more day.


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## mikec142 (Jan 16, 2022)

What's everyone thinking about tomorrow?  Thinking of driving up (leaving NJ in an hour or so).  Grabbing a local room and skiing Monday/Tuesday.  Concerned about two things:  

1.  Monday is full of wind holds
2.  Access to dinner on Monday


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 16, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I ventured over to Sunday River this weekend to ski with my sister and the family.  As I have always said, they are snowmaking gods.  Tremendous conditions of expertly blown and groomed man made snow.  Trails open everywhere with very little ice.  Refreshing after 3 weeks of technical training on Ripcord and Organgrinder.  I did 4 top to bottom White Heats for old time sake.  Felt good to rip that trail once again.  No lines  good weekend but really cold.  One more day.


Thanks for the report. I am heading up there for the first time in a few weeks. Sounds amazing!

Fwiw… ripcord was really nice at 8:30AM today! Hot Shot and Waterfall were also beautifully groomed this AM. I actually got to ski on gorgeous corduroy for the first time ever at SB this AM.


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## Joshco0752 (Jan 16, 2022)

I don't get why the upstairs boot room in the Gatehouse lodge has been closed. I see they've put tables for sixteen people in there and I've yet to see anyone using it. When I asked guest services about the change, they said it would be a "better guest experience." I've been skiing at SB for over sixty years. I have no idea how moving the boot room to only be downstairs improves the guest experience. I thought that was one of the better changes that SB had made when they opened the upstairs boot room. 

I'm 6"5" and I don't fit in the downstairs boot area. That means I have to schlep my stuff upstairs, change, schlep my boot bag downstairs. 

This is not the biggest deal by any stretch of the imagination. At the same time, it surely doesn't make a better guest experience than a few tables and chairs in the old boot room.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

Paradise...


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## WWF-VT (Jan 16, 2022)

Fun day today at Mt Ellen.  Upper mountain groomers in great shape, took an adventure down the "Experts Only" version of Walt's Trail and Hammerhead was so nice that I skied it twice.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 16, 2022)

Ok local experts- what will be the best trails to hit first thing tomorrow AM? 

I don’t have much powder skiing experience- just that big 30” storm at Hunter a few years ago, and another 36” of powder at Whiteface 2 years ago.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

Anything will be good..depends on the wind and whats open..also when this thing starts..
I usualy just bomb right under the lift first thing


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

But..wondering if SB  be better than Stowe if heavy winds hit...more lifts?


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## sugarbushskier16 (Jan 16, 2022)

I don’t think heavens gate, summit quad, or bravo will be open tomorrow morning cuz of the 55 mph wind as I know from my personal experience that those lifts are most susceptible to winds. I could be wrong tho, but the winds do seem to die down later in the day I’m pretty sure.  Tuesday will be the day for sure but I got school :|


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## HowieT2 (Jan 16, 2022)

A bit windy but just what the doctor ordered for the base.




__





						Enhanced Mountain Point Forecasts
					





					www.weather.gov


----------



## Lotso (Jan 16, 2022)

sugarbushskier16 said:


> I don’t think heavens gate, summit quad, or bravo will be open tomorrow morning cuz of the 55 mph wind as I know from my personal experience that those lifts are most susceptible to winds. I could be wrong tho, but the winds do seem to die down later in the day I’m pretty sure.  Tuesday will be the day for sure but I got school :|


Agreed. East wind though so it may be a mess. My call would be Inverness pod, either by GMX if it opens (wind will hurt) or Inverness (later than GMX). If we have 5+ by then, Semi Tough and Inverness will be the call, with Brambles also possibly good. All nets stowed on Inverness so it's wide open, but I'd go under t-bar and skier's right of that line midway.

Basically anything that is sheltered is the place to be. Exterm can also be good if things align, as can Tumbler. Wind is the key factor. Looking at webcams of souther resorts (Snowshoe, Blue Mt) the winds are crazy...


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## Lotso (Jan 17, 2022)

Stein's closed today? 1/17 Avalanche danger? Halfway serious, given the above reports of ice...


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Ok local experts- what will be the best trails to hit first thing tomorrow AM?
> 
> I don’t have much powder skiing experience- just that big 30” storm at Hunter a few years ago, and another 36” of powder at Whiteface 2 years ago.



none because none of the lifts will be running


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## Lotso (Jan 17, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> none because none of the lifts will be running


Bravo and GMX must be running or all those people visible on the webcam skinned up. Summit and HG will probably stay down, given the winds


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Bravo and GMX must be running or all those people visible on the webcam skinned up. Summit and HG will probably stay down, given the winds


I'm actually pretty amazed that only HG and Summit are on wind hold. I expected more. Seems the worst wind must be staying a bit further south so far. K and Pico have a substantial amount of wind holds at the moment.


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## Lotso (Jan 17, 2022)

Fingers crossed! Having them stay closed today means some great pow up there when they do open....especially with NR down


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## Johnny B (Jan 17, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> I don't get why the upstairs boot room in the Gatehouse lodge has been closed. I see they've put tables for sixteen people in there and I've yet to see anyone using it. When I asked guest services about the change, they said it would be a "better guest experience." I've been skiing at SB for over sixty years. I have no idea how moving the boot room to only be downstairs improves the guest experience. I thought that was one of the better changes that SB had made when they opened the upstairs boot room.
> 
> I'm 6"5" and I don't fit in the downstairs boot area. That means I have to schlep my stuff upstairs, change, schlep my boot bag downstairs.
> 
> This is not the biggest deal by any stretch of the imagination. At the same time, it surely doesn't make a better guest experience than a few tables and chairs in the old boot room.


One of the major points of feedback we used to receive was how congested things could become upstairs in the Gate House Lodge with people leaving bags everywhere, taking up space, taking up tables, acting as fire hazards strewn about. When we got rid of boot rooms during last year's operational changes, we started to see what a better experience it could be for people dining indoors. So we decided to go with a hybrid approach, keep the boot room downstairs (and one in Farmhouse too), and eliminate the upstairs bag storage. You could say we should have kept the boot room and just said no to bags elsewhere upstairs, but that's actually what we did for the previous few years and people didn't listen. Signage fatigue perhaps! We had staff essentially dedicated to moving bags from the cafeteria into the storage room, only to then be reprimanded by guests who didn't want their bags moved. The solution was to just keep things downstairs. 

For what it's worth, I always try to sit on the end of the bench for more leg room. I'm 6' 3", so I hear you


----------



## Hawk (Jan 17, 2022)

Personally I think the downstairs bootroom was way undersized even when they had the upstairs room.  I just gave up and booted up at my car or I just use other covert options that I am not willing to disclose.


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## WinS (Jan 17, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Stein's closed today? 1/17 Avalanche danger? Halfway serious, given the above reports of ice...


Groomed last night so early runs were sweet but you could feel the hard pack underneath after awhile.


----------



## WWF-VT (Jan 17, 2022)

Mt Ellen was about as good as it gets today.  Easily 8-12" of new snow and all the natural snow trails in play.  Got early runs on Brambles and Semi Tough off the Inverness chair which were awesome and uncrowded.  Hit Encore, Hammerhead and Tumbler off the GMX and literally saw only two other skiers the whole way down Encore.   Was really lucky timing a GMX lap with the opening of the Summit chair,  I had a sublime trip down Exterminator / Lower Exterminator to wrap up the day after an early start and non-stop skiing.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2022)

I am jonesing to get back up there. Will be there Sunday with my wife and middle son.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 17, 2022)

Hmm...maybe tomorrow


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## mikec142 (Jan 17, 2022)

Today was pretty great.  Hope tomorrow will be another great day.  

I need to invest in gore-tex gloves.  Mine were drenched.


----------



## TSQURD (Jan 17, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I need to invest in gore-tex gloves.  Mine were drenched.


Went down that road before. Gloves were always wet, and since the liner wasnt removable took for ever to dry, even on a glove dryer.  If you go that route, 2 things to watch look for: 1) Removable liners 2) make sure the membrane has all seams sealed.  Apparently its common not to have the stitching around the fingers sealed, or so I was told.

Oh, BTW, what a blast today!


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Jan 17, 2022)

It really was a great day at SB today. Me thinks they are being a little conservative on their snow reports. Got home to Fayston at 5 and was greeted with at least fourteen inches of fresh (and unfortunately unplowed) snow. And it's snowing again. Might need to get some early runs tomorrow before the work calls begin.


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## djd66 (Jan 17, 2022)

Today was much needed love for SB! As crappy as the season has been, it’s amazing how quickly think get to awesome with a little pow. Actually there’s a lot of new pow, I estimate about 15”. Today was easily the best day of the season!  The Mtn is in great shape, however if you are going in the woods, be careful- there was not much of a base before the storm.


----------



## NYSnowflake (Jan 17, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Today was pretty great.  Hope tomorrow will be another great day.
> 
> I need to invest in gore-tex gloves.  Mine were drenched.


Mine too! Lucky me, Mr. Snowflake gave me his gloves when he was done at 2 so I could keep skiing ‘till 4. The best part of today was making quiet turns… no scratching or scraping. Zen!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 18, 2022)

Going there today...and hey..blew my whole driveway last night..just woke up and its covered...oy


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## HowieT2 (Jan 18, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Today was pretty great.  Hope tomorrow will be another great day.
> 
> I need to invest in gore-tex gloves.  Mine were drenched.


Leather kinkos


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## Hawk (Jan 18, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Today was pretty great.  Hope tomorrow will be another great day.
> 
> I need to invest in gore-tex gloves.  Mine were drenched.


Mike, maybe expensive but I swear by my Hestra Gloves.  Gortex, leather palms, durable and they have removable liners.

Hestra Gloves


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## Hawk (Jan 18, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Today was much needed love for SB! As crappy as the season has been, it’s amazing how quickly think get to awesome with a little pow. Actually there’s a lot of new pow, I estimate about 15”. Today was easily the best day of the season!  The Mtn is in great shape, however if you are going in the woods, be careful- there was not much of a base before the storm.


To add to the woods discussion, below say the Allyns / Glen House level there is just a skim of frozen snow.  The snow that fell just covers up the blowdowns and rocks.  I have already heard of numerous injury's on Monday from my ski patrol friends.  Be extremely carful and keep your tips up if you plan to be foolish.


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## jimmck (Jan 18, 2022)

Some work in progress today just uphill of the Valley Lodge...


----------



## Hawk (Jan 18, 2022)

Maybe the snowball - Racers edge snowmating pipe?


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Maybe the snowball - Racers edge snowmating pipe?


That was my guess as well. If so, happy to see them working on fixing that so they can get that route blown in to give another groomed option down the VH side for people that want that (i.e. my dad lol)


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## djd66 (Jan 18, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Maybe the snowball - Racers edge snowmating pipe?


That would explain why they had not blown snow on lower SB.  Hopefully they can get the fired up soon.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 18, 2022)

Today was interesting..about 5 inches ontop of nice crunchy stuff
Still a powder day in my book


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## Johnny B (Jan 18, 2022)

Castlerock opened for hiking today. It was as good as it gets over there. If anyone is thinking of going tomorrow, I'm sure it'd still be worth the hike!


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## Hawk (Jan 18, 2022)

I don't know Johny.  As good as it gets?   I will say great but I have had many years of as good as it gets.  Glad they opened it up for the masses.


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## crank (Jan 18, 2022)

Yesh.  I like it better when I can ride the chairlift up.

I'm sure it was pretty good though.  We are at Sugarbush this weekend and so glad to see so much more open than when we were there over the holidays.

Did I miss something earlier in this thread; I'm wondering why no Slidebrook Express this year and has that already been discussed?


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## HowieT2 (Jan 18, 2022)

crank said:


> Yesh.  I like it better when I can ride the chairlift up.
> 
> I'm sure it was pretty good though.  We are at Sugarbush this weekend and so glad to see so much more open than when we were there over the holidays.
> 
> Did I miss something earlier in this thread; I'm wondering why no Slidebrook Express this year and has that already been discussed?


SBX requires snow cover for evacuation purposes.  It should soon be running when temps permit.


----------



## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2022)

I did the early shift at Mt Ellen today and was on the Summit chair at 9 AM.  Lots of fun on Looking Good with untracked powder, Elbow windblown at the the top but fresh and deep the rest of the way. The  Inverness chair wasn't running so my guess is that I was one of 5 people that had skied Brambles by 10:30  AM.  ROTD was definitely Bravo with knee+ deep powder.


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## ducky (Jan 18, 2022)

CR is way better without the lift running.

Bailed out on LP today when I hit the Access Rd traffic jam at The Bridges at 9:00. Quick U-ey and over to MtE. Windblown but some soft turns leftover on the sides.


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> SBX requires snow cover for evacuation purposes.  It should soon be running when temps permit.


Additionally, the lift mechanics have to be able to get to all 40 towers safely and quickly on their snow mobiles.


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## WinS (Jan 18, 2022)

WWF-VT said:


> I did the early shift at Mt Ellen today and was on the Summit chair at 9 AM.  Lots of fun on Looking Good with untracked powder, Elbow windblown at the the top but fresh and deep the rest of the way. The  Inverness chair wasn't running so my guess is that I was one of 5 people that had skied Brambles by 10:30  AM.  ROTD was definitely Bravo with knee+ deep powder.


Shot across Northway first thing and had first tracks on Inverness, That is a rare pleasure when there are a few inches of fresh powder over a groomed surface and GMVS is not training. Only one person ahead of me on Northway, and he turned into Walt’s which  looked really nice too.


----------



## NYSnowflake (Jan 18, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Mike, maybe expensive but I swear by my Hestra Gloves.  Gortex, leather palms, durable and they have removable liners.
> 
> Hestra Gloves


My Hestras got saturated on Monday


----------



## shadyjay (Jan 18, 2022)

WinS said:


> Shot across Northway first thing and had first tracks on Inverness, That is a rare pleasure when there are a few inches of fresh powder over a groomed surface and GMVS is not training. Only one person ahead of me on Northway, and he turned into Walt’s which  looked really nice too.



I used to love heading over there on a day like that and point right towards either Semi-Tough or Brambles.  Getting the speed to get through Northway was the challenge, so I'd try to bomb down from Lower Elbow and hope to make it across Exterm, or just suck it up and hit Exterm.  The struggle was always worth it!

If only this was my week off...


----------



## TSQURD (Jan 18, 2022)

The Gore Tex gloves that i tried and would not dry were the Hestra Army Gore Tex. Maybe i ended up with a defective pair.

I do love the regular Army Leather version though -  pulled the liner out last night and they were dry this morning.


----------



## flakeydog (Jan 18, 2022)

of course you could buy 2 or 3 pr of Kincos and keep them dry.  I will say after sampling all of the best handwear, Kinco  performs the best.  This is at any price, and I get cold hands.  I have been wearing mittens since high school because of this, just sayin'....


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## Smellytele (Jan 18, 2022)

WinS said:


> Additionally, the lift mechanics have to be able to get to all 40 towers safely and quickly on their snow mobiles.


Why not use atv’s


----------



## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

ATV's would not be a good option unless it was dry and there was no snow.  The terain is very hilly obviously so they would be slower and would rip up the traverses that the skiers use to enter and exit slidebrook.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> of course you could buy 2 or 3 pr of Kincos and keep them dry.  I will say after sampling all of the best handwear, Kinco  performs the best.  This is at any price, and I get cold hands.  I have been wearing mittens since high school because of this, just sayin'....


I disagree.  I used Kincos for a few years and they are not nearly as good as my current Hestra's.  My hands got wet and cold with them.  Just my opinion.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I disagree.  I used Kincos for a few years and they are not nearly as good as my current Hestra's.  My hands got wet and cold with them.  Just my opinion.


The insulated kinkos?
i have hestras and kinkos, and the hestras stay in my bag.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

You must have old shitt Hestras or weird hands    lol


----------



## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

Send me a link to the Kinkos you have..


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 19, 2022)

Ski Off!


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

crank said:


> Yesh.  I like it better when I can ride the chairlift up.
> 
> I'm sure it was pretty good though.  We are at Sugarbush this weekend and so glad to see so much more open than when we were there over the holidays.
> 
> Did I miss something earlier in this thread; I'm wondering why no Slidebrook Express this year and has that already been discussed?


Crank, my comment had nothing to do with the lift by the way.  I was just looking back at old pitures and vids from a bunch of years back when we were skiing early season pow at Castlerock, long before the lift was open.  It used to be that only locals and long time regulars skied castlerock before it was open and the ski patrol just looked the other way.  We have skied waste deep pow over there in the past with no one around.  That is why I laughted at the "good as it gets".  Johny is new so we will cut him some slack.

Slidebrook will probably open soon now that they have snow on the ground.  The other thing they usually need is enough snow to get skiers out of slidebrook in the event of an evacuation.  Not sure if we are there yet.


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## crank (Jan 19, 2022)

First, I did not know that about Slidebrook chair so thanks for the info.  Now I know.

2nd,  I used to ski Sugarbush a bunch back in the '70s.  Had some wonderful days skiing powder at Castlerock but have never been a "regular" and have never hiked there.  I am one of the Ikon masses who is enjoying getting back into skiing the area regularly.

3rd,  I've been using Kincos for a few years and just went out and bought a super warm pair of Hestra primaloft mitten liners with Goretex outer mitts.  Never spent half that much on mittens r gloves. This weekend will be the acid test.  the Kincos, while rugged and a great value, have never been great at keeping my hands warm when it's cold. My 3- pairs of Kincos cost less together than just the 1 pair of Hestra liners!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> ATV's would not be a good option unless it was dry and there was no snow.  The terain is very hilly obviously so they would be slower and would rip up the traverses that the skiers use to enter and exit slidebrook.


Well if there was snow then you could use snow mobiles


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## Newpylong (Jan 19, 2022)

Kincos are only good because they are cheap. I keep two pair on me because they get soaked easy (but dry out quick).


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

NP on the Slidebrook info
Great to have you back as a new Regular.  I converted 20 years ago and I don't look back
Everybody's hands are different based on how good your circulation is, that type of skier you are and how much your hands sweat.  I am thinking I might try the Kincos again if Everybody is saying they are good.  It's been a few years so maybe they are better.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2022)

You have to waterproof the Kincos or they are worthless.  I use the gloves and when it get super cold I switch to the mittens.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Well if there was snow then you could use snow mobiles


If there was no snow then the ATV's would be moot.  There has to be snow so the evac-ed skiers can ski out of the slidebrook area.  They don't sled out all the evacuee's.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

tumbler said:


> You have to waterproof the Kincos or they are worthless.  I use the gloves and when it get super cold I switch to the mittens.


I have good waterproofing stuff I use on my work gloves.  I am going to give this a whirl with the Kinkos just to see.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I have good waterproofing stuff I use on my work gloves.  I am going to give this a whirl with the Kinkos just to see.


Snoseal works great, you just have to do it in your oven and it stinks up the house.  It's lasted 3 seasons so far without having to reapply.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 19, 2022)

check youtube for how to waterproof the kinkos gloves.  heat in oven at 175f, coat in snoseal.  repeat multiple times until the leather is saturated.
they shouldnt be getting wet at all.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> check youtube for how to waterproof the kinkos gloves.  heat in oven at 175f, coat in snoseal.  repeat multiple times until the leather is saturated.
> they shouldnt be getting wet at all.


Correct, but don't leave them to long, they don't need to get very warm.  If too hot the snoseal gets too liquidity and soaks through the leather and into the insulation.  I learned that on the first pair I tried.


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## mikec142 (Jan 19, 2022)

A couple of things:

Thank you to all who provided glove feed back.  I have a pair of leather hestra army heli's that I like quite a bit.  They are plenty warm, but not ideal on wet days.  I'll look at the hestra army heli goretex.  I'm not a guy who spends $ just to spend it.  But I have no problem paying for a great product that I will get a ton of use out of.

Monday and Tuesday were pretty epic IMHO.  Especially when you consider what we've been skiing so far this season.  I drove up on Sunday and grabbed a room at the Sugar Lodge...skied bell to bell on Monday and 9am to 1pm on Tuesday before hopping in the car and driving back to NJ.  I rarely stay at the mountain...usually in Burlington.  But I wanted to be close by as I didn't really want to drive in the storm.  It was fun as I got to catch the torchlight parade and fireworks on Sunday night.  Also got to eat at Rumbles.  Wish I wasn't doing dry January as it would have been the ideal situation to enjoy Apres at the mountain.

Even though I knew it would have been a good idea to wait until the next storm cycle to try out the woods, I couldn't resist and popped into the top half of Deeper Sleeper as my last run on Tuesday.  I had fun, but it needs more coverage.  It's actually deceiving as it looks pretty good, but there are obstacles that are poking through and ones that are covered by a half inch of snow.

Castlerock.  I love everything about CR.  It's special.  And I get that there is a contingent who would keep it as hiking only if they had their way.  I'm totally cool with starting the CR season as hike only to "ski" in the moguls.  Count me firmly in the camp of "there is a lift there for a reason".  I like that the lift is slow and the chairs spaced.  It never feels crowded up there and anyone who shouldn't be up there finds out the hard way and doesn't go back for a second run.  I've done the hike and I'm happy I've tried it, and every once in a while it's fine.  But if its a fun day on the mountain and I want to get in a bunch of runs, hiking doesn't work.


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## Newpylong (Jan 19, 2022)

I Snosealed mine when they were new. Think they can be washed and reapply it once clean(er)?


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## ingsy (Jan 19, 2022)

I am not a fan of the final skiing portion of the 'hike' to CR.  I get nervous w/ the narrowness of the trail and possibility of someone coming in fast behind me.  Always worth the effort though.  Any thoughts on when the CR chair will start running?  I forget how long they leave it open for hiking only.  The conditions update says 'near future'.


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## Hawk (Jan 19, 2022)

There are lift maintenence sleds at CR as seen on the web cam.  That is a good sign.  The also need staff.  Haven't heard the status.  I bet this weekend.


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## djd66 (Jan 19, 2022)

ingsy said:


> I am not a fan of the final skiing portion of the 'hike' to CR.  I get nervous w/ the narrowness of the trail and possibility of someone coming in fast behind me.  Always worth the effort though.  Any thoughts on when the CR chair will start running?  I forget how long they leave it open for hiking only.  The conditions update says 'near future'.


I agree with what you are saying on the "final ski" of the hike to Castlerock.  I personally don't mind the hike as its a nice workout - its the last ski section that is a bitch! Its really bad when there is a ton of traffic and the trail has open/exposed areas.  

Hey, its really nice that we are actually talking about Castlerock now!  A few weeks ago we didn't even have North Lynx.  Lets hope the weather pattern stays cold and we can start talking about skiing Slidebrook!


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## Johnny B (Jan 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Crank, my comment had nothing to do with the lift by the way.  I was just looking back at old pitures and vids from a bunch of years back when we were skiing early season pow at Castlerock, long before the lift was open.  It used to be that only locals and long time regulars skied castlerock before it was open and the ski patrol just looked the other way.  We have skied waste deep pow over there in the past with no one around.  That is why I laughted at the "good as it gets".  Johny is new so we will cut him some slack.
> 
> Slidebrook will probably open soon now that they have snow on the ground.  The other thing they usually need is enough snow to get skiers out of slidebrook in the event of an evacuation.  Not sure if we are there yet.


For what it's worth, I've worked at Sugarbush for 10 years, so not new by any means! But I hear you. Point is the Castlerock skiing was excellent. Pre-lift spinning it's always worth the hike in my opinion. We just don't get to ski that much untouched powder without moguls underneath typically. Skiing any natural terrain before it transforms to bumps (and I love bumps) is a great time.

*Anyway, some news for all of you regarding lifts*! Tomorrow we're doing our load test for North Ridge. That means we can't have anyone skiing near the lift as a safety precaution because we load barrels of water on the chairs to test weight. So heads up, Summit and Inverness will both have a delayed opening (we hope 11:00 AM at the latest), along with a number of trails they access. Spread the news. Cliffs will be groomed as the best route down from GMX.

Additionally, we're expecting both North Ridge and Castlerock to start spinning Saturday (potentially Friday). Hooray! Slide Brook isn't quite there yet.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2022)

Johnny B said:


> For what it's worth, I've worked at Sugarbush for 10 years, so not new by any means! But I hear you. Point is the Castlerock skiing was excellent. Pre-lift spinning it's always worth the hike in my opinion. We just don't get to ski that much untouched powder without moguls underneath typically. Skiing any natural terrain before it transforms to bumps (and I love bumps) is a great time.
> 
> *Anyway, some news for all of you regarding lifts*! Tomorrow we're doing our load test for North Ridge. That means we can't have anyone skiing near the lift as a safety precaution because we load barrels of water on the chairs to test weight. So heads up, Summit and Inverness will both have a delayed opening (we hope 11:00 AM at the latest), along with a number of trails they access. Spread the news. Cliffs will be groomed as the best route down from GMX.
> 
> Additionally, we're expecting both North Ridge and Castlerock to start spinning Saturday (potentially Friday). Hooray! Slide Brook isn't quite there yet.


Fingers crossed on NRX.


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## Boxtop Willie (Jan 19, 2022)

BTW, great opening video up on the Sugarbush web site right now. Looks like Johnny B has been doing a little more work than just talking to us on AZ,
Nice work.


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2022)

Boxtop Willie said:


> BTW, great opening video up on the Sugarbush web site right now. Looks like Johnny B has been doing a little more work than just talking to us on AZ,
> Nice work.


People actually go to the main page of the website?    I just keep the conditions page open in a browser tab and look mainly at that.

Seriously though, it would have taken me probably weeks to notice that new opening video if you hadn't pointed it out.  It does look great fwiw.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 19, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I Snosealed mine when they were new. Think they can be washed and reapply it once clean(er)?


I always just piled more snoseal on whenever it felt like the waterproofing was fading, every couple weeks or so with daily work use. Those gloves got water, road salt, grease, gasoline, motor oil and hydraulic fluid on 'em and seemed to waterproof fine. I usually trashed a pair and a half in a season snowmaking.


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## Newpylong (Jan 19, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I always just piled more snoseal on whenever it felt like the waterproofing was fading, every couple weeks or so with daily work use. Those gloves got water, road salt, grease, gasoline, motor oil and hydraulic fluid on 'em and seemed to waterproof fine. I usually trashed a pair and a half in a season snowmaking.



I will have to keep reapplying. Mine smelled like PB Blaster, and had pipe dope and Duck Butter all over them when I worked on the mountain haah.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 19, 2022)

Nothing like a pocket zipper breaking..on an arcterx.alpha jacket...only way to get it fixed is send it back to canada...its so beat and ripped..they will give me a new one...years from now?


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## mikec142 (Jan 19, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Nothing like a pocket zipper breaking..on an arcterx.alpha jacket...only way to get it fixed is send it back to canada...its so beat and ripped..they will give me a new one...years from now?


That sucks.  They are great about standing behind their stuff though.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 19, 2022)

Yup..this is the one they gave me when the first one ripped..but now with all this going on i would not send it to them.
I have a backup one..just as good..but this one is better in some ways..
I tried to fix it..the pull just snapped...waterproof zippers are not very strong..


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## djd66 (Jan 19, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Nothing like a pocket zipper breaking..on an arcterx.alpha jacket...only way to get it fixed is send it back to canada...its so beat and ripped..they will give me a new one...years from now?


As someone that make stuff for consumers,... how about just accept the fact that eventually products do wear out after normal use?  I know they do have a very generous return policy, but come on, they already replaced the jacket for you.  At some point, a business model of replacing a product that has been used for years -  does not work.  There are no jackets (or any clothing for that matter) that are meant to last for ever. Be reasonable.


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2022)

djd66 said:


> As someone that make stuff for consumers,... how about just accept the fact that eventually products do wear out after normal use?  I know they do have a very generous return policy, but come on, they already replaced the jacket for you.  At some point, a business model of replacing a product that has been used for years -  does not work.  There are no jackets (or any clothing for that matter) that are meant to last for ever. Be reasonable.



Agreed. Darn Tough has a lifetime guarantee on their socks...yet I would feel absolutely terrible about taking them up on it for socks that I've used for a decent length of time. (Obviously their socks are a lot cheaper than Arc'terx jackets...but still your point is entirely valid...)

Now how did this turn into a clothing thread?


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## djd66 (Jan 19, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Now how did this turn into a clothing thread?


let’s just not turn this into a thread about drinking with Harvey!


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## HowieT2 (Jan 19, 2022)

Ha funny.  Arcteryx is great.  I ripped my shell when I fell my ass onto a rock on the downhill part of the castlerock hike.  they fixed it for like 40 bucks.

I’ve seen that they and some others are buying used gear and reselling it.  Prices for the used stuff didn’t seem too enticing to my eyes.


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## Lotso (Jan 19, 2022)

Curious why Sugar Run has had guns going for what seems like a week. Nice to see snow made, but I can think of other trails that get more traffic that could use the love (FIS, Cruiser, RR)?


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## cdskier (Jan 19, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Curious why Sugar Run has had guns going for what seems like a week. Nice to see snow made, but I can think of other trails that get more traffic that could use the love (FIS, Cruiser, RR)?


Doesn't Sugar Run usually get terrain park features on it? That takes a bit extra snow so could explain it (although lower elevation temps have also not been ideal non-stop for the past few days, so perhaps there were also times the report had the icon next to the trail but snow wasn't actually being made at the time). I see Which Way and Brambles now listed with the snow-making icon at ME on the report, so I'm thinking they're just about wrapped up on Sugar Run.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 20, 2022)

djd66 said:


> As someone that make stuff for consumers,... how about just accept the fact that eventually products do wear out after normal use?  I know they do have a very generous return policy, but come on, they already replaced the jacket for you.  At some point, a business model of replacing a product that has been used for years -  does not work.  There are no jackets (or any clothing for that matter) that are meant to last for ever. Be reasonable.


I have stuff that is ...lets say very old...and still works..these jackets cost over $1000.00
But they come with a lifetime warranty..i am reasonable...
I have many jackets many times older than this...that work perfectly....
Its not a big deal...now its a 1 pocket...


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 20, 2022)

And now...back to skiing...


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## ducky (Jan 20, 2022)

A patroller once described to me "a bunch of MAMIA's" heading into Slide Brook. Middle Aged Men in Arcteryx. 


On a more serious note and speaking to whether the woods are "ready" or not, ..this from the Ski Ride VT FB page, incident at Stowe on Tuesday from an experienced skier:

_A word of caution: the woods might look great after yesterday’s storm, but be careful…. very careful. Even though we are close to the magic 40” mark, there is no base.
Yesterday was an amazing powder day. Well, it was great until it wasn’t. After hearing people rave about how well Angel Food was skiing, we traversed out to the bench. After five or six beautiful yet cautious powder turns, I hit something below the snow. Next thing I know, I was ten feet below my right ski and my right leg was bending in ways it never should. Luckily, I was not skiing alone and Stowe ski patrol went above and beyond. They were amazing. They got me safely down in less than ideal conditions and loaded into an ambulance and off to Copley. Diagnosis: 2 fractures in the right tibia along with a right fibula fracture. I believe they call it a “boot top fracture”. 36 hours in the hospital, a 2 hour surgery, a boat load of pain, a titanium rod, six screws, and a ton of pain meds later, I’m home and expected to make a full recovery. It’s going to be a long road though, and it’s safe to say my ski season is over.
Learn from my mistake. Just because the trees look good doesn’t mean they are safe. Do your research. 40 inches of power isn’t the same as 40 inches of hard-packed. I know there were plenty of others out in the notch yesterday too who didn’t have an issue, but just one unlucky turn ruined my season. I’m grateful that ski patrol got me down, the orthos put me back together, and that I’m going to eventually make a full recovery, but in retrospect, I wish I would have waited for another foot or two of snow before venturing into the notch._


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 20, 2022)

Avalanche in a chute in the notch..cartied 2 about 700 feet...its sporty back there


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have stuff that is ...lets say very old...and still works..these jackets cost over $1000.00
> But they come with a lifetime warranty..i am reasonable...
> I have many jackets many times older than this...that work perfectly....
> Its not a big deal...now its a 1 pocket...


I just go to my local taylor shop in my home town.  They have 3 russian ladies that can fix anything.  I know it voids the warranty but I get it fixed in a week and it is as good as new.

AJ's on the access road in Stowe in the spring is the place to go for bargins on Arcteryx, Marmut and Patagonia.  I am sure you have been in there.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have stuff that is ...lets say very old...and still works..these jackets cost over $1000.00
> But they come with a lifetime warranty..i am reasonable...


Actually they do not come with a "lifetime" warranty. Arc'teryx apparel has a "Practical Product Lifespan" warranty.

_What does Practical Product Lifespan mean?

Practical Product Lifespan means the usual and customary wearable life of the product. The Practical Product Lifespan does not mean for your lifetime or mean a time period that is indefinite. The manner in which the product is used directly impacts the usual and customary wearable life of the product, as materials will deteriorate and fade over time and moving parts will also wear.

Arc’teryx Products are designed for long life and durability, if care instructions are followed carefully. If your Product appears worn out, then it may be time to replace your product and we hope that Arc’teryx will be a part of your next buying decision. Practical Product Lifespan will be determined in the reasonable discretion of an authorized Arc’teryx Customer Service representative who shall take into account at least the following factors: the type and nature of the Product, the nature of the use of the Product, nature of the Product issue involved, and age of the Product. The Arc’teryx Customer Service representative may require consumer information in order to make the foregoing determination and may not be able to make a determination without such accurate information from the consumer._


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## HowieT2 (Jan 20, 2022)

ducky said:


> A patroller once described to me "a bunch of MAMIA's" heading into Slide Brook. *Middle Aged Men in Arcteryx.
> *
> 
> On a more serious note and speaking to whether the woods are "ready" or not, ..this from the Ski Ride VT FB page, incident at Stowe on Tuesday from an experienced skier:
> ...


Hey, if the shoe fits.....


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## Hawk (Jan 20, 2022)

That describes me and my group of friends on most days.  Sadly the middle aged part is fleeting for some of us.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 20, 2022)

Taped up all the rips and pocket...
Done.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2022)

in today's installment of first world problems... i wanted to ski sugarbush this sat and magic sun and normally i'd drug myself to sleep at 8 PM on Friday night to get a solid 7 hours of sleep and then drive. however, free luxury box tickets for trevor noah at msg fell into my girlfriends lap for Friday night and i feel bad telling her no i wont go on a nice date with you because i am going to sleep on drugs at 8 PM. so we are going to the comedy show, and I'll get home by 12, and I'll sleep til 4, and I'll go to stratton instead of sugarbush and still be in sunbowl lot by 830.


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## ducky (Jan 20, 2022)

Hiked over today. Definite thaw-freeze all over from yesterday. Groomers were cementy and CR was slabby, either from the thaw or from wind. Not to say it wasn't fun (CR), just no longer powder. More snow is needed and tomorrow will be much colder.


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## ducky (Jan 20, 2022)

Also, Emily E, formerly of the Wonderbar and Hogan's, opened her own place yesterday in Waitsfield opposite Canteen Creemee in the old Stoke Ramen location.


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## mikec142 (Jan 20, 2022)

ducky said:


> Hiked over today. Definite thaw-freeze all over from yesterday. Groomers were cementy and CR was slabby, either from the thaw or from wind. Not to say it wasn't fun (CR), just no longer powder. More snow is needed and tomorrow will be much colder.


Man...that really blows.  I was wondering about the temps yesterday.  We had such a glorious run last season from mid-January thru February.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2022)

thanks for that report. makes me feel better about being a good boyfriend Friday and not pushing for northern Vermont saturday


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## Johnny B (Jan 20, 2022)

Hey everyone. You'll likely see it on social and the snow report, but I wanted to update you all here about uphill travel. Here's our uphill policy for reference: https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/terrain-and-maps/uphill-travel#uphill-travel. 

*Attention uphill travelers*: effective immediately we will be suspending uphill travel at both Lincoln Peak and Mt. Ellen outside of operating hours. Mt. Ellen's daytime uphill route will remain open but all early morning and evening routes at both mountains will be closed. Unfortunately, we have experienced several incidents this season with guests not abiding by our uphill travel guidelines, in particular our designated downhill routes. We have worked hard to support uphill enthusiasts and continue to find ways to expand and improve our policy, but when guests don't adhere to our policy it puts both them and our mountain operations teams at risk. We ask that you help spread the word on our uphill policy and proper etiquette and we are hopeful we can open it back up in the near future.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2022)

ouch, that sucks that people ruin a good thing


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

That's crazy that the policy this year was more lenient than ever with regards to downhill routes...and yet people still couldn't follow it?


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

I'm guessing this incident may be the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak...



> We have had a number of repeat incidents in just the last week culminating with two skiers skiing past our flashing winch signage onto Cliffs and hitting the winch cable, ejecting out of their skis, and then fleeing the scene before our winch operator could get up to check on them.



To be blunt...people are fucking stupid!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2022)

lol did they leave their skis at the scene? dumb dumbs. could have killed themselves. winch cables are no joke.


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## tumbler (Jan 20, 2022)

That is scary.  They should be up a video of a winch cable going under tension, that would cut someone in half!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

A few dumb people is why we can't have nice things.....


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## teleo (Jan 20, 2022)

Fing morons ruining it for everyone.  Lucky the didn't get killed.

On the plus side, the new uphill route is nice.  I guess last mondays pre opening skin was the last for a while


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## El Bishop (Jan 20, 2022)

Johnny B said:


> Hey everyone. You'll likely see it on social and the snow report, but I wanted to update you all here about uphill travel. Here's our uphill policy for reference: https://www.sugarbush.com/mountain/terrain-and-maps/uphill-travel#uphill-travel.
> 
> *Attention uphill travelers*: effective immediately we will be suspending uphill travel at both Lincoln Peak and Mt. Ellen outside of operating hours. Mt. Ellen's daytime uphill route will remain open but all early morning and evening routes at both mountains will be closed. Unfortunately, we have experienced several incidents this season with guests not abiding by our uphill travel guidelines, in particular our designated downhill routes. We have worked hard to support uphill enthusiasts and continue to find ways to expand and improve our policy, but when guests don't adhere to our policy it puts both them and our mountain operations teams at risk. We ask that you help spread the word on our uphill policy and proper etiquette and we are hopeful we can open it back up in the near future.


Johnny, I get it.  You guys have to do something.  But this sucks! For so many of us that follow the rules, laps in the AM and a quick after-work skin trip is exercise, therapy, etc.  Perhaps check Strava to see if those guys recorded their trip and deal with them directly.  I hope there's another way to handle this.


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## urungus (Jan 20, 2022)

Apparently uphillers are also causing problems at Black Mountain (NH)








						Black Mountain (NH) Threatens to Cancel Uphill Skinning Due to Trespassers
					

Black Mountain in Jackson, New Hampshire is one of the most popular skinning ski areas in the country. Andrew Drummonds founded the Friday Night Lights event, where tourers get to shred the mountai…




					unofficialnetworks.com


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## Lotso (Jan 21, 2022)

Selfish and ignorant people


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## HowieT2 (Jan 21, 2022)

Moerons.


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2022)

I understand that these people suck.  I get it.  But you get a few Morons so you shut it down?  How about enforsement and penalties first or a warning before you shut it down.  Looks to me that you guys were looking for a reason to shut it down and they handed it to you.

Your rules will not stop the responsible people that know where to go and what to ski.  They have been skinning at the mountain for years.  Long before there were such policies.


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2022)

ducky said:


> Also, Emily E, formerly of the Wonderbar and Hogan's, opened her own place yesterday in Waitsfield opposite Canteen Creemee in the old Stoke Ramen location.


That is good news.  She has a huge following and I am sure she will do fine.  Is she going to have music?


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2022)

Castlerock opens today.  I will be out for some of that after morning work.  CD are you headed out?  Maybe I will see you over there.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Castlerock opens today.  I will be out for some of that after morning work.  CD are you headed out?  Maybe I will see you over there.


I've actually been back to my "In NJ midweek, drive up Friday after work, drive home Sunday" routine so far this year. I'm still not going into the office and working remotely, but I have some other reasons for going back and forth so far...


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## Big Wave Dave (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I understand that these people suck.  I get it.  But you get a few Morons so you shut it down?  How about enforsement and penalties first or a warning before you shut it down.  Looks to me that you guys were looking for a reason to shut it down and they handed it to you.
> 
> Your rules will not stop the responsible people that know where to go and what to ski.  They have been skinning at the mountain for years.  Long before there were such policies.


Aaaand this is the attitude causing the issues. “Your rules”.  Plenty of mountains in Vermont for you to go be a hard ass at that aren’t subject to liability concerns. Make your own ski hill if the rules are so hard for you.  Isn’t that really what skins are for?


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## Hawk (Jan 21, 2022)

What, the attiture of the people that have never broken the rules and are now being limited by idiots?
The locals and the regulars here at sugarbush have been skinning and skiing without issues for years.  it was a don't ask don't tell policy that worked.  Enter the new gernation of skinners and the conservative rule makers.  Now it's all f-ed up.  I skin and ski on and mostly off the mountain for the past 20 years.  Sometimes at night.  I have never been approached by a groomer, sled or any mountain peronell.  Why is that?  Because I have common sence and a good sence of what would be safe and acceptable.  That will remain as my cannon.  I say send out patrol to bust and prosicute the idiots and then it will leave the respocble people like the original crew and the newer responcibe people.  I might add that some of the people that skin and ski are ex and current employees and patrol.  So throw stone if you like.  There is more to this then you understand.


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## Big Wave Dave (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> What, the attiture of the people that have never broken the rules and are now being limited by idiots?
> The locals and the regulars here at sugarbush have been skinning and skiing without issues for years.  it was a don't ask don't tell policy that worked.  Enter the new gernation of skinners and the conservative rule makers.  Now it's all f-ed up.  I skin and ski on and mostly off the mountain for the past 20 years.  Sometimes at night.  I have never been approached by a groomer, sled or any mountain peronell.  Why is that?  Because I have common sence and a good sence of what would be safe and acceptable.  That will remain as my cannon.  I say send out patrol to bust and prosicute the idiots and then it will leave the respocble people like the original crew and the newer responcibe people.  I might add that some of the people that skin and ski are ex and current employees and patrol.  So throw stone if you like.  There is more to this then you understand.


Your missing the point. It’s not up to you to determine the rules that apply to you when using the facilities of a private organization.  Whether I, or you, disagree,  is irrelevant.  I wish it was different and we had more of a European attitude towards personal risk. But we don’t. 

I watched two skinners argue with patrol last year when they were skinning a closed trail and the attitude they had infuriated me. Absolute entitlement with no reasonable basis to back it up beyond their opinion. This was at another mountain that had a recent winch cat incident and the patrollers we’re doing their jobs. 

I have seen that enough in the skin crowd to know it is more than a few bad apples.  The basis of skinning is freedom to move where you want- it’s inherently antithetical to order in some ways.


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## Johnny B (Jan 21, 2022)

We are hopeful this tosses some awareness on the issues we're having and we can all work to educate each other and hold each other accountable. Walt's After Dark on Saturday will still happen at this point and we will allow skinning. We hope to turn the policy back on soon, assuming we don't continue to see abuse over the next few days. The daytime Mt. Ellen route is also still open.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2022)

On another topic...I haven't seen any mention of snow-making at LP in I think over a week now. Any information on what's going on there or what the plan is to finish up the trails that still haven't been started or finished?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I watched two skinners argue with patrol last year when they were skinning a closed trail and the attitude they had infuriated me. Absolute entitlement with no reasonable basis to back it up beyond their opinion. This was at another mountain that had a recent winch cat incident and the patrollers we’re doing their jobs.
> 
> I have seen that enough in the skin crowd to know it is more than a few bad apples.  The basis of skinning is freedom to move where you want- it’s inherently antithetical to order in some ways.


I was going to ask if the sense of entitlement was an issue.  Sounds like it is.  I remember several years ago an incident at SB where, despite MULTIPLE warnings, a few uphillers felt it was OK to go up LP right in the middle of snowmaking operations that were underway and they did not know what the problem was.

And was said mountain Burke by chance?  I know that they had issues with skiers and winch cats recently.


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## Johnny B (Jan 21, 2022)

cdskier said:


> On another topic...I haven't seen any mention of snow-making at LP in I think over a week now. Any information on what's going on there or what the plan is to finish up the trails that still haven't been started or finished?


Working on a blog post right now 

Generally speaking, we're out of water right now. We're pretty much tapped out at Lincoln Peak on withdrawal from the Mad River/snowmaking pond given where water levels are and the super cold weather has really slowed down the recharge of all our water resources. Mt. Ellen is still in decent shape which is why you're seeing snowmaking continue over there.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I understand that these people suck.  I get it.  But you get a few Morons so you shut it down?  How about enforsement and penalties first or a warning before you shut it down.  Looks to me that you guys were looking for a reason to shut it down and they handed it to you.
> 
> Your rules will not stop the responsible people that know where to go and what to ski.  They have been skinning at the mountain for years.  Long before there were such policies.


I get what you are saying, but how does SB enforce the policy when, in the referenced incident, the culprits who skied into the winch cable simply ran off and are unknown?


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## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2022)

"Do you know who I am?"
"I was skinning up these trails before you were born"


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2022)

Johnny B said:


> Working on a blog post right now
> 
> Generally speaking, we're out of water right now. We're pretty much tapped out at Lincoln Peak on withdrawal from the Mad River/snowmaking pond given where water levels are and the super cold weather has really slowed down the recharge of all our water resources. Mt. Ellen is still in decent shape which is why you're seeing snowmaking continue over there.



I was actually afraid that was the reason...


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I get what you are saying, but how does SB enforce the policy when, in the referenced incident, the culprits who skied into the winch cable simply ran off and are unknown?


I saw elsewhere that it can be that a groomer can see someone skinning (and breaking the rules) from a distance and have no chance to catch them.

My gut feeling is that short of someone actually running into a patroller or groomer, it's not so easy to catch people.

Also, during the pandemic, there has been an explosion in popularity of ski touring.  This will obviously increase the number of folks who are unaware of the proper etiquette.  It will also (obviously) increase the number of people who are aware, but choose to ignore the rules/etiquette.


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## mikec142 (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I understand that these people suck.  I get it.  But you get a few Morons so you shut it down?  How about enforsement and penalties first or a warning before you shut it down.  Looks to me that you guys were looking for a reason to shut it down and they handed it to you.
> 
> Your rules will not stop the responsible people that know where to go and what to ski.  They have been skinning at the mountain for years.  Long before there were such policies.


I don't think this is necessarily fair.  If it was easy to catch and punish the few bad apples, I'm sure that SB would go that route first.  Why would you assume that SB is/was looking for a reason to shut down uphill travel?  Seems counterintuitive to me.

I have a ton of respect for your love of SB and your institutional knowledge of the area.  That said, I wish you would rethink your last three sentences.  I get your frustration.  I really do.  But the answer isn't to intentionally disregard the rules under the guise of "I'm one of the responsible rule breakers"


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I get what you are saying, but how does SB enforce the policy when, in the referenced incident, the culprits who skied into the winch cable simply ran off and are unknown?



Agreed...and asking SB to hire someone to "patrol" and "enforce" rules during off-hours for a service that SB provides for FREE really doesn't seem like a good idea either. It is definitely a difficult and complicated situation that SB is being put into by a handful of idiots.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

The harsh reality is this:  it only takes ONE bad accident and one ambitious/desperate injury attorney to threaten or file suit against Sugarbush.  Granted that the Vermont Skier Act, as well as other laws, may protect SB, but that does not prevent someone from filing suit requiring SB to notify its insurer and/or retain an attorney to defend and get the case tossed (which costs money).  That is also assuming that SB follows its own rules and its winch cat driver took all the precautions perfectly which is not always the case (we're human). 

A death or serious injury is "worth enough" for someone to try suing because they will get SOMETHING that is worth the time and effort even if it is nuisance value.  It sucks, but that is where it is.  Add to it the fact that a lot of people STILL don't have health insurance and if they get hurt they can't pay their medical bills so they still go to an attorney and try to sue. 

Just a claim on the liability policy will increase premiums a lot for SB.

So that is why the stakes are high for a ski area like SB and why some places simply say no to uphillers.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The harsh reality is this:  it only takes ONE bad accident and one ambitious/desperate injury attorney to threaten or file suit against Sugarbush.  Granted that the Vermont Skier Act, as well as other laws, may protect SB, but that does not prevent someone from filing suit requiring SB to notify its insurer and/or retain an attorney to defend and get the case tossed (which costs money).  That is also assuming that SB follows its own rules and its winch cat driver took all the precautions perfectly which is not always the case (we're human).
> 
> A death or serious injury is "worth enough" for someone to try suing because they will get SOMETHING that is worth the time and effort even if it is nuisance value.  It sucks, but that is where it is.  Add to it the fact that a lot of people STILL don't have health insurance and if they get hurt they can't pay their medical bills so they still go to an attorney and try to sue.
> 
> ...


Oh right, blame it on the lawyers.  If it wasn’t for the lawyers, who cares about the injured victims.  They probably only break their legs and will never be the same again.  Probably after 6 months or so they can even get back to walking.  And of course, in the unlikely event that someone dies or is paralyzed, well, shit happens.  Who gives a crap about them and their families.  And who cares about the groomer who has to live with the memory that he chopped someone up.
I’m obviously being facetious but this post is infuriating.  ill informed.  First of all, the mountain has zero liability for an incident in these circumstances.  Sure, anyone can sue for anything but lawyers in this business don’t get paid unless theres a recovery so its highly unlikely any lawyer would spend his time and money on a loser case like this.  And insurance companies don’t just hand out money, ever, especially when there’s any kind of a defense to liability.  They have armies of lawyers in house that vigorously defend even the most meritorious cases.  They are on the payroll and it doesn’t cost the insurance company or the insured anything additional to defend another case.
medical costs-it isn’t uninsured victims seeking recovery for medical costs in injury lawsuits, its the health insurers, medicare Medicaid and medical providers who are seeking reimbursement from the 3rd party tortfeasor.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Oh right, blame it on the lawyers.  If it wasn’t for the lawyers, who cares about the injured victims.  They probably only break their legs and will never be the same again.  Probably after 6 months or so they can even get back to walking.  And of course, in the unlikely event that someone dies or is paralyzed, well, shit happens.  Who gives a crap about them and their families.  And who cares about the groomer who has to live with the memory that he chopped someone up.


Wow, tell me how you really feel.....


HowieT2 said:


> I’m obviously being facetious but this post is infuriating.  ill informed.  First of all, the mountain has zero liability for an incident in these circumstances.  Sure, anyone can sue for anything but lawyers in this business don’t get paid unless theres a recovery so its highly unlikely any lawyer would spend his time and money on a loser case like this.  And insurance companies don’t just hand out money, ever, especially when there’s any kind of a defense to liability.  They have armies of lawyers in house that vigorously defend even the most meritorious cases.  They are on the payroll and it doesn’t cost the insurance company or the insured anything additional to defend another case.
> medical costs-it isn’t uninsured victims seeking recovery for medical costs in injury lawsuits, its the health insurers, medicare Medicaid and medical providers who are seeking reimbursement from the 3rd party tortfeasor.


Ill informed?   No.  More like the pot calling the kettle black.

Yes there is statutory protection but I've explained that people still will try to sue.  And that costs something to defend against.  A claim by SB, no matter how frivolous, will increase its premiums.  That's how it works.  If SB opts to not file a claim and defend itself that also costs money.

And the idea that Medicare/Medicaid/insurers initiate suits is complete nonsense.  They don't.  They will assert a lien on the injured person's case and even then accept pennies on the dollar if there is any award or settlement.  That's how it works.  

More important you missed the the point which is the motivation behind SB's decision to avoid any issues, let alone anyone getting hurt or killed.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, tell me how you really feel.....
> 
> Ill informed?   No.  More like the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> ...


You're simply wrong and don't know what you're talking about.  I've been in the business for 30 years.  You're just regurgitating false, albeit widely held misapprehensions about how the system works.  But believe want you want to believe, facts be damned.  People contact lawyers all the time seeking recovery for personal injuries and its the lawyers who have to decline to bring cases that dont have any merit.  You think lawyers want to spend their time and money for years of work on a case that is going to be summarily dismissed.  It is not the case, although that's not to say there arent exceptions to the general rule.  and insurance companies don't just settle cases where there is no liability.  Believe me, its a hard fought battle to get paid on a meritorious case let alone a case that will be dismissed outright.
I never said health insurers initiate suits against tortfeasors to recover medical expenses.  They don't.  But they do seek reimbursement when there is a lawsuit and they usually recover most, if not all, of their costs if the case has any merit.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> You're simply wrong and don't know what you're talking about.  I've been in the business for 30 years.  You're just regurgitating false, albeit widely held misapprehensions about how the system works.  But believe want you want to believe, facts be damned.  People contact lawyers all the time seeking recovery for personal injuries and its the lawyers who have to decline to bring cases that dont have any merit.  You think lawyers want to spend their time and money for years of work on a case that is going to be summarily dismissed.  It is not the case, although that's not to say there arent exceptions to the general rule.  and insurance companies don't just settle cases where there is no liability.  Believe me, its a hard fought battle to get paid on a meritorious case let alone a case that will be dismissed outright.
> I never said health insurers initiate suits against tortfeasors to recover medical expenses.  They don't.  But they do seek reimbursement when there is a lawsuit and they usually recover most, if not all, of their costs if the case has any merit.


Guess what?  I'm in the business as well (insurance and liability) and what I've said is pretty accurate as to business side of things.  It's apparent that you take issue with how I've framed things. We can differ on that but you certainly are on a soapbox.  I almost shed a tear over what you said.

Judging by your tone and perspective it seems that you are on the plaintiff's side of things.  If so, I suggest that you not hand your card out on SB's lifts this weekend.   I've seen some pretty ridiculous claims over my time.  Such as the guy with 20 years painting experience who sued a ladder manufacturer after he got hurt after falling off a ladder he put up upside down.  Yes, a lawyer took that case on and it was not outright dismissed.  People do bring dumb cases and the fact is that accidents will increase insurance costs.  In a business with tight margins every little bit counts.  Does that mean that a business gets carte blanche when it comes to not complying with safety standards and doing the right thing?  Absolutely not.  But my point is that SB is taking the action it is to avoid any claims.

Now that I've said that, it's time to go skiing.  I suggest you do the same.


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## ducky (Jan 21, 2022)

Instead of SB policing the BC policy, maybe the MRVBC should be doing it, or policing themselves? https://www.mrvbc.org


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I just go to my local taylor shop in my home town.  They have 3 russian ladies that can fix anything.  I know it voids the warranty but I get it fixed in a week and it is as good as new.
> 
> AJ's on the access road in Stowe in the spring is the place to go for bargins on Arcteryx, Marmut and Patagonia.  I am sure you have been in there.





ducky said:


> Instead of SB policing the BC policy, maybe the MRVBC should be doing it, or policing themselves? https://www.mrvbc.org


wondering if you were out there again Ducky and if it is still rock hard surfaces. losing motivation to be out there on this cold weekend.


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## ducky (Jan 21, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> wondering if you were out there again Ducky and if it is still rock hard surfaces. losing motivation to be out there on this cold weekend.


I was out until 1:00. Surfaces were less hard than yesterday. I did not try CR as there was a lift line (I don't do that). Did a few on Birch and one Upper Jester, also a bike path trail.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Guess what?  I'm in the business as well (insurance and liability) and what I've said is pretty accurate as to business side of things.  It's apparent that you take issue with how I've framed things. We can differ on that but you certainly are on a soapbox.  I almost shed a tear over what you said.
> 
> Judging by your tone and perspective it seems that you are on the plaintiff's side of things.  If so, I suggest that you not hand your card out on SB's lifts this weekend.   I've seen some pretty ridiculous claims over my time.  Such as the guy with 20 years painting experience who sued a ladder manufacturer after he got hurt after falling off a ladder he put up upside down.  Yes, a lawyer took that case on and it was not outright dismissed.  People do bring dumb cases and the fact is that accidents will increase insurance costs.  In a business with tight margins every little bit counts.  Does that mean that a business gets carte blanche when it comes to not complying with safety standards and doing the right thing?  Absolutely not.  But my point is that SB is taking the action it is to avoid any claims.
> 
> Now that I've said that, it's time to go skiing.  I suggest you do the same.


Oh yeah, the poor insurance companies with their "tight" margins.  Come on,  do you really believe that crap?  There's a reason why allstate, liberty mutual, geico, progressive and the like are such big advertisers.  You can't watch a ball game on tv without seeing them.  Because they make tons of money.  Warren Buffett is no dummy.  Its a great business.  
and sure there are many cases where the liability is questionable, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.  Do you want me to list the cases I've had over the last 30 years where I should have won but didnt, or all the cases with perfect liability and huge damages but limited coverage.  I've had death cases with perfect liability and only 50k in coverage.  Try telling that to a grieving family.

SB is taking action to prevent incidents where people can be grievously injured.  Avoiding a potential claim is secondary.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 21, 2022)

he meant the ski areas have tight margins and don't want claims causing the ski areas insurance premiums to increase. no one is saying geico is in a tight margin business.


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## djd66 (Jan 21, 2022)

What I find kind of funny, if you are just going to break the rules, why do you need to get on a public forum and announce to the world (including Sugarbush management) that you plan on breaking the rules? I am not judging about anyone‘s decisions regarding after hours skining, but why go and basically say F U to SB?


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## JimG. (Jan 21, 2022)

"Rules for thee, not for me"

A phrase we hear often today. This behavior pisses me off.  Entitled and disrespectful.

And now back to the lawyers.


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## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2022)

To make Hawk happy
Beginning tomorrow, all uphill routes will reopen. We have experienced several incidents this season with guests not abiding by our uphill travel guidelines. We have worked hard to support uphill enthusiasts and continue to find ways to expand and improve our policy. We ask that you review, follow, and help spread the word on our uphill policy and proper etiquette.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I get what you are saying, but how does SB enforce the policy when, in the referenced incident, the culprits who skied into the winch cable simply ran off and are unknown?


They are skiing down mount Ellen or Lincoln peak.  All the trails end up at the bottom and these people have head lighs on and skis.  I would think it would be easy enough for the cat driver to get on the radio and say "Hey two guys, snow boarder and skier, red jacked and blue jacket just skied down XYZ trail"  Please intercept.  security or ski patrol gets on a ski mobile and intercepts.  That way the people who were idiots get the punishment and not the people that followed the rules.  That is all I am saying.

I never said I was going to break any rules I am just pissed that we now can not do something that we always did because of stupid people.  I also think it is comical that the people that do not skin on a regualr basis are so concern about the new rules.

Castlerock was good today.  I did 5 runs over there.  Tomorrow it will be totally beat up down to the rocks and dirt so I am happy I got it when I did. 


djd66 said:


> What I find kind of funny, if you are just going to break the rules, why do you need to get on a public forum and announce to the world (including Sugarbush management) that you plan on breaking the rules? I am not judging about anyone‘s decisions regarding after wjphours skining, but why go and basically say F U to SB?


I Never said I was going to break the rules by the way and I never said FU to SB.  I think they sould just enforce rules they created and not pelalize good people.  What I did say is that I know people that will continue to do things under the radar.  That probably will not be me but maybe it will.  I not sure yet.


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## flakeydog (Jan 21, 2022)

Discretion is always good, for so many things in life.  Problem is that the typical entitled douchebag hipster-dufus that inevitably ruins it for everyone else is not, and probably does not want to be.  Whee, look at me! I am skiing uphill on $2,000 of super trendy gear.  Maybe if I post this on Insta I can get kinda-sponsored.

Anyway, there is a lot of legit backcountry out there that's open 24/7 with no pesky limits.  Once you park in a lot or set foot on a cut trail you are utilizing the services of that resort so you get to play by their rules.  The groomers and snowmakers have way better things to do than chase down people and I seriously doubt there is "security" or ski patrol hanging around all night that could do the same.  Again, this is where discretion goes a long way.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> They are skiing down mount Ellen or Lincoln peak.  All the trails end up at the bottom and these people have head lighs on and skis.  I would think it would be easy enough for the cat driver to get on the radio and say "Hey two guys, snow boarder and skier, red jacked and blue jacket just skied down XYZ trail"  Please intercept.  security or ski patrol gets on a ski mobile and intercepts.  That way the people who were idiots get the punishment and not the people that followed the rules.  That is all I am saying.
> 
> I never said I was going to break any rules I am just pissed that we now can not do something that we always did because of stupid people.  I also think it is comical that the people that do not skin on a regualr basis are so concern about the new rules.
> 
> ...


I get you,  but at night time it is literally the snow cat operators on the mountain and that is it.  During early season of course there’s snow making cruise on the mountain. Ski patrol has enough to deal with during operating hours.


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## WinS (Jan 22, 2022)

Here is one thing that has not been discussed. The impact on our groomers. Sugarbush is very fortunate to have some excellent pros driving these machines. The last thing they want is to injure or kill someone. They work hard to deliver a good product for all of us. Not all skiers wear a night light especially when where they are not supposed to be. a groomer’s focus is on the plow and the surface in front and not skiers who are not supposed to be on the trail. When an incident like the recent one occurs they are really shaken and question if they want to stay employed. A couple of years ago when we had a similar incident a few threatened to quit unless we could keep skiers on the approved trails.


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## ducky (Jan 22, 2022)

"He had lots of guts"


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## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2022)

With a name like Telly of course he skied.


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## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2022)

How are the glades skiing at the bush (if at all)? Haven't been in a few weeks and heading up tomorrow.


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## Zand (Jan 22, 2022)

Noticed the report is showing 100% open with Castlerock debuting today. First in New England to 100%?


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## Zand (Jan 22, 2022)

As for glades...this is in MRG's report if that's any indication:

"Ski Patrol is strongly advising that skiers hold off on woods skiing until we see more snowfall. The snow in the trees has settled and changed, and while you may have found some soft turns just after the storm, at this point we’re still a few inches away from comfortably suggesting the glades. Coverage is thin and hazards lie just below the surface of the snow. Stick to on-piste terrain today and you’re likely to have a better, safer time, but if you cannot overcome the overwhelming urge to venture into the trees, at least ski with a buddy so they can help you when you double-eject after hooking on a half-buried log…"


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## Hawk (Jan 22, 2022)

Depends on your tolerance of dirt, rocks and sticks.  Above Allyns and the Glen house there was about a 2 to 4 inch frozen base before we got 12" tp 14" of snow.  If you ski in the remaining untracked ares it is not too bad except for the hidden treasures.  Where people have skied is more safe but all kinds of things showing and the cover is very thin.

Below this area the icey base goes from 2 inches to non-existent depending on the sun angle.  Also the snow cover varies from about 12 inches and shrinks based on wind and sun effect.  Crusty areas exist and the base is very suspect.  Tried a few areas and almost killed myself.  If you are adverse to the risk, I would stay high and attempt lower angle skiing.


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## slatham (Jan 22, 2022)

The key to being a life long glade skier is to know when NOT to go.....(and of course, always look between the trees, never at them!).


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## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2022)

slatham said:


> The key to being a life long glade skier is to know when NOT to go.....(and of course, always look between the trees, never at them!).


I look at trees as the tops of bumps.


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2022)

I mentioned it upthread...on my last run on Tuesday, I was peeking into the top of Deeper Sleeper from Hot Shot.  Even though I suspected it wasn't ideal, I couldn't resist as it looked good from afar.  I took my time...2-3 turns linked at a time...and carefully picked my way down.  While fun, it's clearly not ready and still dangerous.  There are still a lot of exposed roots, rocks, stumps, etc.  And even more concerning were the obstacles that were mostly covered by a half inch of snow, but I could still see.  When I got to the midpoint at Sleeper Road, I decided not to continue and to just pop over to Sleeper for the rest of the run.  IMHO, the glades need another good storm to be safe.

As an aside, clearly this was my observation on a lower elevation glade.  I can't speak to stuff higher up, but whatever the conditions, I can't imagine they've improved since Tuesday.

Bummed I'm not there this weekend, but plan to be there next weekend.


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## NYDB (Jan 22, 2022)

Zand said:


> Noticed the report is showing 100% open with Castlerock debuting today. First in New England to 100%?


Pico was 100% a couple of days ago


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I look at trees as the tops of bumps.


Unfortunately a lot of glade runs seem to be bump runs in the woods…


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## urungus (Jan 22, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> Pico was 100% a couple of days ago


Pats Peak is also 100%.  Also Ski Sundown.


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## jaybird (Jan 22, 2022)

We applaud enforcement of the Rules 

Skinning in backcountry/non lift serviced terrain has never caused us any problem.
(Other than disturbing wildlife and having to defend ourselves from attack .. )

The primary reason we skin is to ascend wilderness areas and descend lines that are untracked and totally 'pure'. Having seen many of those skinning up groomed trails during the day and watching some of their descents, not surprised that these 'newby/rona' skinners would be so outside of their skill zone that disagreements and problems would develop. Simply donning AT gear assures no level of competence. Add a helmet cam to the mix .. resulting outcome can lead to disaster.

Mastery in a backcountry setting is hard-earned. There is plenty of beautiful territory all around the State of Vermont. Gear up. Plan your work .. work your plan.

Keep Thinking Snow! It may be paying off.

Cheers !


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## Newpylong (Jan 22, 2022)

There is a sense of entitlement with some uphill traveller's. Show up, skin up private property, ski down on hard earned (and expensive) man made snow, get in your Subaru and drive home without spending a buck.

Skinning up in the middle of snowmaking and grooming operations. Skiing over our snowmaking hoses, getting in the way of our snowmobiles sending staff off the trail. I saw enough to certainly form a stereotype in my head.

I say require a pro-rated pass or ticket (based on no lift service) or turn them away as simple as that.


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Unfortunately a lot of glade runs seem to be bump runs in the woods…


Isn't that often the case?


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## jaybird (Jan 22, 2022)

Roger that ..
.. and mtn bike berms .. treacherous


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## IceEidolon (Jan 22, 2022)

Yep. They're exposing the resort to liability, using a cleared trail probably with grooming and possibly with snowmaking. All of that takes money to maintain. Unless the resort is feeling generous and lenient, an access fee is totally reasonable.


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## MadPadraic (Jan 22, 2022)

Anyone know what was going on with GMX and North Ridge today?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 22, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Anyone know what was going on with GMX and North Ridge today?


Nothing good. By end of day both chairs seemed to spin dependably


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 22, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Nothing good. By end of day both chairs seemed to spin dependably


Hopefully each are 
working well tomorrow


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

Vermont Ski Resort Perfectly Captured From Space
					

Tyler Jankoski (@TylerJankoski) of NBC5 shared an awesome picture of Sugarbush that appears to be captured from space. Unclear if was taken from a plane or satellite, but saying it was captured fro…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

Uphill travelers warned to follow resort rules following suspension
					

Earlier this week, Sugarbush suspended the activity outside of operating hours because skiers and hikers weren’t respecting policy.




					www.wcax.com


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## Smellytele (Jan 23, 2022)

The natural trails (did castlerock, lower paradise and moonshine)today were fun although pretty thin. 
Some of the other trails were a little slick (Murphy’s, sunrise, organgrinder, upper part of ripcord, stein’s).
Liftlines were nothing today except Bravo. Only rode gatehouse first thing, it looked a little longer later. Never got over to Ellen today.


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## WinS (Jan 23, 2022)

8:20 pm Sunday night. A nice Champlain Powder surprise while watching the playoffs.


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2022)

WinS said:


> 8:20 pm Sunday night. A nice Champlain Powder surprise while watching the playoffs.


Hah...why couldn't that happen last night?


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## crank (Jan 23, 2022)

We skied Ellen today.  No lines to speak of and similar conditions to Lincoln.  Nice snow between the granite and the grass.

Looks like they got about 4" since we left this afternoon.


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2022)

crank said:


> We skied Ellen today.  No lines to speak of and similar conditions to Lincoln.  Nice snow between the granite and the grass.
> 
> Looks like they got about 4" since we left this afternoon.


It did start snowing light around 3 then picked up around 4 when we were leaving


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 24, 2022)

You can thank me later...


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## jaybird (Jan 24, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> You can thank me later...


Consider yourself thanked 
It's a cold smoke primo morning.
Nice filler .. careful of the snausages


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 24, 2022)

Snausages....mmmmm


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## Joshco0752 (Jan 24, 2022)

Does anyone know what was happening with the parking lot at North yesterday? I've never seen that many cars there, even on a Holiday weekend. At 12:30 PM all lots were full, cars were parked down the access road and there were tons of cars trying to get into the parking lot.

The trails weren't crazy, but the parking lot certainly was.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> Does anyone know what was happening with the parking lot at North yesterday? I've never seen that many cars there, even on a Holiday weekend. At 12:30 PM all lots were full, cars were parked down the access road and there were tons of cars trying to get into the parking lot.
> 
> The trails weren't crazy, but the parking lot certainly was.


Race?


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## Joshco0752 (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Race?


The parking lot was only 1/3 full at 9:30 when I got there and the race was underway by that time. The cars were streaming in at 12:30 when the racers were starting their second run.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> The parking lot was only 1/3 full at 9:30 when I got there and the race was underway by that time. The cars were streaming in at 12:30 when the racers were starting their second run.


Interesting.  Some promo going on?  I bet Win knows.


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## Lotso (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Some promo going on?  I bet Win knows.


Agreed with Josh, and most racers were brought by team vans; very few parents in tow. My guess is the combination of sunshine, temps finally getting reasonable, and LP likely overflowing sent people to ME. 

Hope they sold some burgers and fries...


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 24, 2022)

I wonder if sometimes ME gets slammed while LP is (sort of) empty because everyone goes to ME hoping to escape the hordes. Kind of like mis-timing the tide


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Agreed with Josh, and most racers were brought by team vans; very few parents in tow. My guess is the combination of sunshine, temps finally getting reasonable, and LP likely overflowing sent people to ME.
> 
> Hope they sold some burgers and fries...


I remember back way-back-when they had "Mount Ellen Only" and "Mount Ellen Plus" season passes that it would get busy on nice spring days.


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## Lotso (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I remember back way-back-when they had "Mount Ellen Only" and "Mount Ellen Plus" season passes that it would get busy on nice spring days.


I think the 'Sugarbush Value Pass' is essentially ME pass. Some access to LP before ME opens and after it closes.


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2022)

Lotso said:


> I think the 'Sugarbush Value Pass' is essentially ME pass. Some access to LP before ME opens and after it closes.



Basically...although it also allows LP access midweek non-holiday now too.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2022)

my former almost every weekend ski bud had a baby who just turned 1 and he didn't ski at all last season. he rented a sweet place in warren with his wife and baby and is skiing today thru Friday while his wife stays at the place with the baby. she will maybe want to ski a run or two all week, if that. lucky bastard skiing freshies on an empty monday.


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2022)

Must have been nice to ski the lower angle trails like domino and Moonshine.  I dont think 4'' of fluff would have helped castlerock or Paradise except to discise the rocks.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 24, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Must have been nice to ski the lower angle trails like domino and Moonshine.  I dont think 4'' of fluff would have helped castlerock or Paradise except to discise the rocks.



lol buddy is a decent skier, but not the strongest, and very very tentative about steeps, bumps, and trees. he always does fine (better than fine), but he's just a scared little bitch. i was very surprised when he sent me a photo from the CR double. cant wait to find out how he fared coming down lol. i presume its not perma-moguls yet, so he's got that going for him


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## Lotso (Jan 24, 2022)

Looks like another little sneaker 'storm' tonight and tomorrow...these little 3-4 inch events will make things nice...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 24, 2022)

Took an extended lunch break and did a few runs, including one on castlerock. The few inches did actually help vs yesterday.


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## Los (Jan 24, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> I wonder if sometimes ME gets slammed while LP is (sort of) empty because everyone goes to ME hoping to escape the hordes. Kind of like mis-timing the tide


Interesting theory, but I don’t think so…


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## ss20 (Jan 24, 2022)

I think Mt. Ellen just has a shitload of parking given its relatively low uphill capacity.  That's a TON of cars for 4 quad chair lifts, imo.  Pico probably has 2/3 the parking capacity as ME and definitely has a bit more lift capacity.


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## ducky (Jan 25, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I think Mt. Ellen just has a shitload of parking given its relatively low uphill capacity.  That's a TON of cars for 4 quad chair lifts, imo.  Pico probably has 2/3 the parking capacity as ME and definitely has a bit more lift capacity.


And nobody in the lot helping you park closely to the next car like Lincoln. 5' apart is a big difference from 3' apart. If anyone wants to amuse themselves, there is an interesting IG feed called stoweparkinglot. Full of the stupid shit people do.


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2022)

ducky said:


> And nobody in the lot helping you park closely to the next car like Lincoln. 5' apart is a big difference from 3' apart. If anyone wants to amuse themselves, there is an interesting IG feed called stoweparkinglot. Full of the stupid shit people do.


Actually at Lincoln on Sunday they didn’t direct spacing. Well not when I got there at 8:30( later than planned for multiple reasons).


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Actually at Lincoln on Sunday they didn’t direct spacing. Well not when I got there at 8:30( later than planned for multiple reasons).



Saturday they weren't either when I got there at 7:45. Sunday morning around the same time I did see several staff in the parking lot, but they weren't directing parking. Very unusual.


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## Hawk (Jan 25, 2022)

I skied over and missed all the excitement.  I am so happy there is snow now.  
Yes it is very unusual that they did not have a full staff.  They always do.


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I skied over and missed all the excitement.  I am so happy there is snow now.
> Yes it is very unusual that they did not have a full staff.  They always do.


They were directing you were to go but not the actual spacing. There were many of them.


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## Hawk (Jan 25, 2022)

Sounds like new or inexperienced people.  Usually not the case.


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## djd66 (Jan 25, 2022)

I would love to see them start spinning Slidebrook,... I would think that they have enough base given the recent 9"


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2022)

S


djd66 said:


> I would love to see them start spinning Slidebrook,... I would think that they have enough base given the recent 9"


Still looks a little thin coming out of the Lincoln side


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## WinS (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Some promo going on?  I bet Win knows.


No promo. A lot of racers but both Saturday and Sunday had almost the same number of people. One of the busiest non-holidays weekends I have seen. I guess snow brought out a lot of pent up demand.


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## WinS (Jan 25, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Must have been nice to ski the lower angle trails like domino and Moonshine.  I dont think 4'' of fluff would have helped castlerock or Paradise except to discise the rocks.


Another 3” last night. Morningstar and Domino skied well. Middle Earth was gnarly through Jaws then better but I did not ski it until 11am so it may have been better first thing. Sunrise was groomed and the trail of the day. Did 3 laps before it was discovered.


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## Hawk (Jan 25, 2022)

That's what I thought.   Would have loved to get up but work is killing me this week.  Crossing my fingers about this weekend.  Maybe a little more.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

WinS said:


> No promo. A lot of racers but both Saturday and Sunday had almost the same number of people. One of the busiest non-holidays weekends I have seen. I guess snow brought out a lot of pent up demand.


Wonder if it is also partially a black-out effect. Since a number of people were blacked out the weekend prior for MLK that led to more pent up demand and they all made up for it by coming this weekend. I was pretty surprised how quickly it got crowded Sunday morning at LP. There were more people early on at LP on Sunday than on Saturday. Sure it was colder Saturday, but it was also sunnier.

My condo complex seemed a bit more crowded this weekend than last weekend as well which I thought was interesting. I don't think there was a single spot left to park this weekend at my complex.


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## djd66 (Jan 25, 2022)

There were definitely a lot of people skiing this past weekend - not just at SB.  Rt. 89 coming home on Sunday was backed up for 2 miles getting on 93.  And then 93 was backed up to the first set of tolls.  Normally I only see it like that for the busiest holiday weekends, I think there is a lot of pent up demand.


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## crank (Jan 25, 2022)

djd66 said:


> There were definitely a lot of people skiing this past weekend - not just at SB.  Rt. 89 coming home on Sunday was backed up for 2 miles getting on 93.  And then 93 was backed up to the first set of tolls.  Normally I only see it like that for the busiest holiday weekends, I think there is a lot of pent up demand.



Coming down 89 to 91 Sunday afternoon/evening.  Sugarbush to Westchester County, NY we hit no traffic at all and made it home in under 5-hours.  Fastest time ever!  Guess everyone was going to Boston.

Saturday crowds at Lincoln were lighter than what we experienced over the holidays.  Cold Saturday morning may have kept folks off the hill and being fully open terrain-wise must have spread people out more.  Castlerock had a long line mid-day but that's par for the course.  Mt. Ellen on Sunday did not seem that crowded on the hill.  We got there early enough and left late enough that we didn't notice a particularly full parking lot.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

crank said:


> Coming down 89 to 91 Sunday afternoon/evening.  Sugarbush to Westchester County, NY we hit no traffic at all and made it home in under 5-hours.  Fastest time ever!  Guess everyone was going to Boston.


I can't say the same for the NY Thruway heading back to NJ from SB on late Sunday afternoon. Definitely a lot of stop and go traffic once you got south of the Belleayre exit. More-so than I've seen normally around that time. It wasn't terrible, but it did probably add about 15 minutes or so to the drive home over "normal" traffic.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Wonder if it is also partially a black-out effect. Since a number of people were blacked out the weekend prior for MLK that led to more pent up demand and they all made up for it by coming this weekend. I was pretty surprised how quickly it got crowded Sunday morning at LP. There were more people early on at LP on Sunday than on Saturday. Sure it was colder Saturday, but it was also sunnier.
> 
> My condo complex seemed a bit more crowded this weekend than last weekend as well which I thought was interesting. I don't think there was a single spot left to park this weekend at my complex.


That's what I was thinking and, at least anecdotally, what I saw out here.


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## tumbler (Jan 25, 2022)

I am a bit surprised that LP is out of water.  It has been warm and wet up until a couple weeks ago and the river was running pretty high?  Is there an issue with the intake that they could be taking the proportional amount of water when the river is below the high flow intake?  Would like to see more snowmaking but don't want ra*n.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I am a bit surprised that LP is out of water.  It has been warm and wet up until a couple weeks ago and the river was running pretty high?  Is there an issue with the intake that they could be taking the proportional amount of water when the river is below the high flow intake?  Would like to see more snowmaking but don't want ra*n.



Looks like maybe the pond refilled enough to re-start some LP snow-making. Just saw this on the report indicating snowmaking tonight for Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge (which will actually disappoint me slightly as I quite enjoyed a bumped up natural Lower Snowball and Racer's this past weekend...)


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## pinnoke (Jan 25, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like maybe the pond refilled enough to re-start some LP snow-making. Just saw this on the report indicating snowmaking tonight for Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge (which will actually disappoint me slightly as I quite enjoyed a bumped up natural Lower Snowball and Racer's this past weekend...)
> 
> View attachment 52852


Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge were even more fun today (as was everything I sampled, beginning at 9am at LP), with addition of this morning's snow PLUS a bonus 1-2" mid-afternoon with some beautiful squalls. Bring on the natural; bring on the man-made...whatever keeps  the base growing and the season getting better and better.


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## El Bishop (Jan 25, 2022)

Hey Johnny B -- thanks for clearing up the uphill mess.  I hope it served as a lesson to the community that we have to behave to have nice things.  As of this afternoon, there is still a closed sign tacked up on the uphill info sign near Sunny-D/Q.  See attached. Assume that should come down.


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## jaybird (Jan 25, 2022)

Nice Camera 

Today was splendid on Heavens gate.
Low angle lower woods filling in


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge were even more fun today (as was everything I sampled, beginning at 9am at LP), with addition of this morning's snow PLUS a bonus 1-2" mid-afternoon with some beautiful squalls. Bring on the natural; bring on the man-made...whatever keeps  the base growing and the season getting better and better.


lower snowball was not so good Sunday. Hit quite a few rocks in there. Actually it was only the middle of lower that was sketchy. Hit less on castlerock and moonshine.


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## machski (Jan 25, 2022)

Hawk said:


> That's what I thought.   Would have loved to get up but work is killing me this week.  Crossing my fingers about this weekend.  Maybe a little more.


Based on the models I've seen Hawk, you should come back for another SR weekend


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> lower snowball was not so good Sunday. Hit quite a few rocks in there. Actually it was only the middle of lower that was sketchy. Hit less on castlerock and moonshine.


I think I hit one rock on lower snowball on Sunday (in the last section right before the Spring Road/Racer's Edge junction). I had way more issues with the thin cover on Moonshine on Saturday than I did on Lower SB either Sat or Sun. I didn't bother to ski Moonshine on Sunday after not particularly enjoying it on Saturday.


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## djd66 (Jan 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> lower snowball was not so good Sunday. Hit quite a few rocks in there. Actually it was only the middle of lower that was sketchy. Hit less on castlerock and moonshine.


I hit a shit ton of rocks on lower snowball - mainly on that last steep pitch… along with every natural trail I skied on Sunday. Don’t get me wrong, I alway prefer ‘o-natural over man made, I just hate it when I kill my skis.   I’m hoping to see some big changes with all the new snow.


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## WinS (Jan 26, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like maybe the pond refilled enough to re-start some LP snow-making. Just saw this on the report indicating snowmaking tonight for Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge (which will actually disappoint me slightly as I quite enjoyed a bumped up natural Lower Snowball and Racer's this past weekend...)
> 
> View attachment 52852


The pond will refill a bit even when not permitted  to draw from the Mad River but not enough to get to capacity. I would guess it might last only a day. The problem is it has been dry. Little rain or snow and now the cold locking up the mountain streams that flow into the River. I am sure they have checked the intake to make sure it is not blocked.


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## jaybird (Jan 26, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I hit a shit ton of rocks on lower snowball - mainly on that last steep pitch… along with every natural trail I skied on Sunday. Don’t get me wrong, I alway prefer ‘o-natural over man made, I just hate it when I kill my skis.   I’m hoping to see some big changes with all the new snow.


Last steep pitch on Snowball ..
Where is that exactly ..

Guns & hoses were positioned there.


----------



## Lotso (Jan 26, 2022)

jaybird said:


> Last steep pitch on Snowball ..
> Where is that ..


ALWAYS there, year in, year out. You are referring to the section from just below Lixi's to just above Moonshine. Never holds/gets enough snow. Gets worse when sun has an impact. Wish they could plant a gun there and make a huge stockpile.

And if you mean the last pitch on L SB above RE, same deal. Often rubble in there.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 26, 2022)

Lotso said:


> ALWAYS there, year in, year out. You are referring to the section from just below Lixi's to just above Moonshine. Never holds/gets enough snow. Gets worse when sun has an impact. Wish they could plant a gun there and make a huge stockpile.
> 
> And if you mean the last pitch on L SB above RE, same deal. Often rubble in there.


He is talking about the pitch on lower snowball on that last corner just above spring road and the start of Racers Edge.  There are montain bike berms and all kinds of rocks showing.  I skied it.  He is right.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 26, 2022)

machski said:


> Based on the models I've seen Hawk, you should come back for another SR weekend


Nope.  I am sticking around.  Acutally my sister from Sunday River is coming here also.  IF I were you I would dust off your skins because I bet sunday all the lifts will be closed at SR.


----------



## Lotso (Jan 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> He is talking about the pitch on lower snowball on that last corner just above spring road and the start of Racers Edge.  There are montain bike berms and all kinds of rocks showing.  I skied it.  He is right.


Ah, yes, that clarifies things. Didn't say he was wrong, just trying to figure out where he was talking about. Hopefully it gets covered up well and soon


----------



## djd66 (Jan 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> He is talking about the pitch on lower snowball on that last corner just above spring road and the start of Racers Edge.  There are montain bike berms and all kinds of rocks showing.  I skied it.  He is right.


Yep, that‘s exactly where I am talking about Hawk.


----------



## machski (Jan 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Nope.  I am sticking around.  Acutally my sister from Sunday River is coming here also.  IF I were you I would dust off your skins because I bet sunday all the lifts will be closed at SR.


They are, finally have Hybrid Boots to go with (yes, until now had been skinning in full alpine boots).  Probably try out the setup today.  Not sure we are staying the weekend, suppose to be in a snowshoe race back in Canterbury, NH Saturday.  Game time decision, waiting to see how this thing tracks and if the race folks call it off Friday we stay.


----------



## jaybird (Jan 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> He is talking about the pitch on lower snowball on that last corner just above spring road and the start of Racers Edge.  There are montain bike berms and all kinds of rocks showing.  I skied it.  He is right.


We skied it yesterday .. no problemo.
Less turns .. more Air !


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2022)

got an airbnb in waitsfield locked down for fri-sun. im very wary of driving out of NYC area late Friday>Saturday so i want to be posted up at a mountain ASAP. got a work think 3-330 Friday but I'll head out asap after that. I'll prob ski sugarbush sat and wake early Sunday and drive down to magic if the driving is safe. looks like this bomb storm is coastal, so I'm not too afraid of driving in noVT. even if the big storm doesn't hit vt, looks like sb is skiing pretty dang good this week.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 26, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> got an airbnb in waitsfield locked down for fri-sun. im very wary of driving out of NYC area late Friday>Saturday so i want to be posted up at a mountain ASAP. got a work think 3-330 Friday but I'll head out asap after that. I'll prob ski sugarbush sat and wake early Sunday and drive down to magic if the driving is safe. looks like this bomb storm is coastal, so I'm not too afraid of driving in noVT. even if the big storm doesn't hit vt, looks like sb is skiing pretty dang good this week.


According to Weather Underground, it's not looking like a significant event for SB...just over an inch.  Lookinf more like 6-7" by me in NJ.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 26, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> According to Weather Underground, it's not looking like a significant event for SB...just over an inch.  Lookinf more like 6-7" by me in NJ.


At this moment it is pushing further east. Still 3 days out but...


----------



## STREETSKIER (Jan 26, 2022)

jaybird said:


> We skied it yesterday .. no problemo.
> Less turns .. more Air !


Today  both snoball and racers edge we’re getting pounded with dry gunpowder   nice day best day so far without snow no wind  No people great snow and  grooming


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> According to Weather Underground, it's not looking like a significant event for SB...just over an inch.  Lookinf more like 6-7" by me in NJ.



yea i know, its the driving out of the NYC area that I'm mostly concerned about so i just want to hit the road Friday before it starts.

its looking increasingly like i can scrap the airbnb tho and stay in a cheap hotel in montpelier Friday night and still arrive safely at sugarbush Saturday morning, and then also safely drive to manchester for another cheap motel to ski sunday at magic. 

wind hold concerns for me at sugarbush, but not at magic. i guess if sugarbush is howling i can audible to MRG for $


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 26, 2022)

Hoping flight back doesnt get canceled..


----------



## mulva (Jan 26, 2022)

How is this Sugarbush skiing compared to Killington?  Planning on Sugarbush Friday and Monday but my place is in Killington.  Is Castlerock ok, Paradise area?  Thanks!


----------



## Los (Jan 27, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea i know, its the driving out of the NYC area that I'm mostly concerned about so i just want to hit the road Friday before it starts.
> 
> its looking increasingly like i can scrap the airbnb tho and stay in a cheap hotel in montpelier Friday night and still arrive safely at sugarbush Saturday morning, and then also safely drive to manchester for another cheap motel to ski sunday at magic.
> 
> wind hold concerns for me at sugarbush, but not at magic. i guess if sugarbush is howling i can audible to MRG for $


Please keep us updated about your plans for the weekend! Always so fascinating to hear.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2022)

Looks like VT is getting passed by on this snow Saturday


----------



## Hawk (Jan 27, 2022)

mulva said:


> How is this Sugarbush skiing compared to Killington?  Planning on Sugarbush Friday and Monday but my place is in Killington.  Is Castlerock ok, Paradise area?  Thanks!


IF you don't mind thin cover it is fine.  I have no idea what Killington is like.  I just know there is a lack of significant snow everywhere,


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2022)

Camden Snowbowl is the place to be on Sunday


----------



## Hawk (Jan 27, 2022)

I bet the loaf and saddleback do not do bad either.


----------



## machski (Jan 27, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I bet the loaf and saddleback do not do bad either.


Models I'm seeing continue the trend East.  One map I saw from a reputable source had dropped SR/SB/SL to just 1-4".  As this storm is still forecast to come intensify and tighten up it's circulation, it is also forecast to have a very narrow precipitation shield.  As such, they expect and abrupt cutoff on the western side of the storm.  Time will tell, but trends are poor for everything except Blue Hills and Yawago right now


----------



## ducky (Jan 27, 2022)

For Skiers, a Winter of Discontent
					

With resorts having trouble hiring and employees calling out sick, visitors have been frustrated by idled lifts, limited services and closed terrain. Some of the biggest complaints have come from Epic Pass holders.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Not about SB, just a general article in today's NYT.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 27, 2022)

Sorry, Pay wall.  What's it saying?


----------



## tumbler (Jan 27, 2022)

Even with getting skunked on snow there is the wind factor


----------



## Hawk (Jan 27, 2022)

Yup they are saying possibly 30-40 on Saturday.  We will see.


----------



## tumbler (Jan 27, 2022)

And it's looking very cold. Again.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

According to WCAX, the number of uphillers at SB has gone from 300 to 1,500 in five years!









						Vermont ski resorts work to accommodate boom in uphill skiers
					

Vermonters embrace winter like no others. Many take to the slopes to ski and ride, but some go the extra mile in the fast-growing sport of uphill skiing.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## cdskier (Jan 27, 2022)

An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
					

What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.




					blog.sugarbush.com
				




New blog post talking about snowmaking, the slide-brook chair, and uphill travel.

The cliff-notes for people that don't want to read:

It took 10 days to refill the LP pond enough to run the guns for 18 hours the past couple days. They're hopeful they can make more snow to touch up and build spring depths at some point...but it is a wait and see scenario (I really hope they can build spring depths as I don't think we have nearly enough snow on Steins in particular at this point)
Slide Brook still does not have enough depth to run on the evac routes...BUT there's also a good chance the lift may not run at all due to staffing issues. (I'd agree with SB's stance that other lifts should take staffing priority over Slide Brook...so while disappointing, still the better decision over sacrificing some other lift)
Uphill behavior has vastly improved since the restart. Hopefully the trend continues and people are now more aware of the rules.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 28, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Yup they are saying possibly 30-40 on Saturday.  We will see.


Yes kind of 2 issues - only about a 1" of snow and the wind not much better on Sunday.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 28, 2022)

Except in nyc...where my damn plane...was going to land
This sux...


----------



## Hawk (Jan 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
> 
> 
> What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.
> ...


I can understand the slidebrook chair.  I picked my way down slide brook. Huge mistake and it is not skiable for anyone itermediate or below.  Especially the bottom 1/3.  Evac would be a nightmare.  You should see the bottoms of my skis.
If you look at the 10 day there are 2 events that will most likely add enough water to the river.  If it R*%#s I will not listen to any BS that there is not enough water to blow snow.  Steilns is in OK condition to last a wihile.  Snowball between Lixies and Moonshine is really thin.  It won't last into March at the rate we are going let alone April.  I would expect them to blow those trails as well as downspout and upper jester to keep the season going longer.  Those trails are usually the deteriming factors to extending the season.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2022)

single chair weather blog says westward shift puts mrv in for 5-10"





__





						The Single Chair Weather Blog
					

blog'n for powder




					madriverglenweather.blogspot.com


----------



## Johnny B (Jan 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
> 
> 
> What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.
> ...


Couldn't have spark noted any better myself! Thanks for posting here, you beat me to it. The only other thing to add is that we've added Northstar and Which Way as downhill routes over at Mt. Ellen. More options and hopefully less confusion on what you can/can't ski.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> single chair weather blog says westward shift puts mrv in for 5-10"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm still a little concerned that Josh is wish-casting a bit too much with this one...but we'll see. I hope he's right, but I'm not counting on it yet.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 28, 2022)

Nice day today.  Lightly snowing 22 degress, light breeze.  Headed out now.  NO MORE CALLS TODAY!   YAY


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2022)

ECMWF has the low posting up at the tip of the cape for quite a while with vt in the zone...


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2022)

I hope it tracks more West. Who knows since it hasn’t even formed yet.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2022)

Sunday River Special...


----------



## Powder Whore (Jan 28, 2022)

I have not followed this forum for a while so excuse me if someone has already touched on this. Does anyone else have a problem with the "uphill travel route" at ME? Parts of the route that they have designated have  been one of my regular downhill lines for some time. sometimes I ski it for fun and sometimes I use it as a "way back" to the resort from other places.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 28, 2022)

new gfs run is getting on board with the westward shift but still has vt in the fringe. but every prior gfs run had vt almost all white. so this is progress...


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2022)

Breezy...


----------



## djd66 (Jan 28, 2022)

Something (mechanical)was up with Bravo today. They did finally get it running late in the day. Hopefully there are no issues this weekend. Mtn skied great with it down,… no people on the upper Mtn.


----------



## SkiTheEast (Jan 28, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Something (mechanical)was up with Bravo today. They did finally get it running late in the day. Hopefully there are no issues this weekend. Mtn skied great with it down,… no people on the upper Mtn.


Yeah Bravo has been down the past 2 days - yesterday was a wind hold and today started as a wind hold but apparently turned into a mech.  Was told a sheave wheel needed to be swapped out on one of the towers so hopefully issue resolved for this weekend.


----------



## slatham (Jan 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> single chair weather blog says westward shift puts mrv in for 5-10"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hummmmm, I thought that guy knew what he was doing. 5" is even a stetch. 10"? He must be including what fell this week LOL.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 29, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Yeah Bravo has been down the past 2 days - yesterday was a wind hold and today started as a wind hold but apparently turned into a mech.  Was told a sheave wheel needed to be swapped out on one of the towers so hopefully issue resolved for this weekend.


The sheave was fixed around 2:30.  It was on tower 12 I think.  I skied lower bird land a couple of time and they were working on it for a few hours.  It is working this morning and we should be all set.  That kind of thing happens occasionally.  2 degrees this morning.  Brrrr again.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The sheave was fixed around 2:30.  It was on tower 12 I think.  I skied lower bird land a couple of time and they were working on it for a few hours.  It is working this morning and we should be all set.  That kind of thing happens occasionally.  2 degrees this morning.  Brrrr again.


How was LP today? I spent the day at ME. It was pretty empty over there. Lifts were sheltered from the wind for the most part, but boy was it whipping at the summit (only took 1 run up there mainly to see what the wind was like). Walt's was a nice warm-up run this morning since GMX was delayed. Exterminator was pretty nice despite the thin cover. Did that a few times. Overall a good day, but some fresh snow sure would be nice!

Was snow-making being contemplated this year on the Bravo headwall? I noticed a lone gun right at the top of headwall with hoses connected and stretched out up to the cutover from Elbow. No idea how long that has been there as this was my first time at ME in a couple weeks and first time I would have had a view of Bravo since NRX wasn't running last time I was there and I didn't ski Bravo that time either.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Was snow-making being contemplated this year on the Bravo headwall? I noticed a lone gun right at the top of headwall with hoses connected and stretched out up to the cutover from Elbow. No idea how long that has been there as this was my first time at ME in a couple weeks and first time I would have had a view of Bravo since NRX wasn't running last time I was there and I didn't ski Bravo that time either.


That's what they used to do.....


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That's what they used to do.....


Yea...but it has been ages since they've done that so I was pretty surprised to see that gun and hose over there. No sign that it was actually used though as the headwall looked like its normal rocky bare self!


----------



## NYSnowflake (Jan 29, 2022)

I skied Steins for the first time today. Took it slow, traversed a lot, and turned on top of the bumps, but I didn’t fall! The snow was soft on the bumps and there was some ice in the troughs.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 29, 2022)

How was the wind today? Trying to decide if I should go tomorrow. Worried about the wind.


----------



## NYSnowflake (Jan 29, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> How was the wind today? Trying to decide if I should go tomorrow. Worried about the wind.


There was a windchill advisory in my weather app for Saturday that disappeared this AM… but now my app says there’s another windchill advisory for Sunday, but it ends at 10am. Today definitely felt cold but not windy. Murphys was the most wind blown of any trail I skied. That said, I had Hottronnics running in my boots, plus boot gloves on, plus toe warmers in the boot glove and I had to quit at 2:50 PM because my feet were frozen. it was cold today!


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> How was the wind today? Trying to decide if I should go tomorrow. Worried about the wind.


Not sure at LP...but at ME the lifts were pretty sheltered with the direction the wind was coming from. Only felt the wind on the lifts 2 places at ME...very top of NRX and maybe the top couple towers on Summit. Wind was whipping hard at the summit. On trail...you felt the wind all along Rim Run (decent size drifts and rollers on skier's right as well). The wind was also pretty strong blowing up Elbow. Didn't feel the wind on Exterminator or Looking Good though and felt no wind on any trails below mid-mountain.

Direction will shift though I believe...so what we experienced today could be completely different tomorrow.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 29, 2022)

I skied LP today. Early this morning I thought heavens gate would go on hold but it never did. 100% open but some sketchy stuff out there. lots of people on castlerock who did not belong there. fuckin cold out there today. I’m gonna wake up super early and go to magic tomorrow morning I think. Shortens my final drive home and they picked up about 3-4”


----------



## jaybird (Jan 29, 2022)

It appears Josh Fox scared Kenan away  .. but all is not lost 
Dress warm and look for heavy drifting on Sunday


----------



## Newpylong (Jan 30, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yea...but it has been ages since they've done that so I was pretty surprised to see that gun and hose over there. No sign that it was actually used though as the headwall looked like its normal rocky bare self!



I remember them doing that in the ASC days didn't know they still did. There's a "jumper" line over from Elbow.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I remember them doing that in the ASC days didn't know they still did. There's a "jumper" line over from Elbow.


Exactly.  I saw them do it in the 2007-2011 era (give or take).


----------



## Los (Jan 31, 2022)

jaybird said:


> It appears Josh Fox scared Kenan away


Yeah. And he hasn’t said much about the upcoming Thursday/Friday storm, so maybe that’s a good sign.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

I'm not getting my hopes up but we need snow desparately.  Did a few castlerock runs this weekend.  Those will be my last unless it snows or I swap down to my beater skis.  The bottom runout just above the lift bottom was a rock strewn mess. Actually everywhere was a rock strewn mess.  Super cold, no snowmaking, no woods.  Jezze it's February for god sake.  Lets get some snow please.  Pray for snow!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I'm not getting my hopes up but we need snow desparately.  Did a few castlerock runs this weekend.  Those will be my last unless it snows or I swap down to my beater skis.  The bottom runout just above the lift bottom was a rock strewn mess. Actually everywhere was a rock strewn mess.  Super cold, no snowmaking, no woods.  Jezze it's February for god sake.  Lets get some snow please.  Pray for snow!



yea i used the wrong skis on saturday. oh well. all skis are rock skis if you ski in new england and like anything other than boring groomers.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2022)

uhhhh...ummmm....what?


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

Didn't think that systems was supposed to be that big of a producer.


----------



## crank (Jan 31, 2022)

Maybe those inches are supposed to be degrees.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2022)

def not meant to be temperatures. whatever model is feeding opensnow's API is just calling friday big and cold enough but that's not even close to verifiable yet. the gfs shows it tho.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Jan 31, 2022)

Thursday and Friday seem to have some big potential for snow. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

I saw that but figured it was gong to be a few inches.  Maybe a long duation event?  I will be up on Thursday night.  Hopefully it is something good.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> def not meant to be temperatures. whatever model is feeding opensnow's API is just calling friday big and cold enough but that's not even close to verifiable yet. the gfs shows it tho.
> 
> View attachment 52920



The GFS taken at face value shows about 12" from that for the central VT area. The Canadian shows 2 feet + in Central/Northern VT. The Euro also shows about 12" or so for Central/Northern VT. 

Opensnow seems to be higher than all of these models though...so not sure what they're using.

At any rate, too early to tell any details. Although travel may be a bit challenging potentially starting as early as Wednesday night through later Friday as this front moves through.


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## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

At this point I will take anything.  I do like the looks of the jet stream stayting in the area with small waves forming over the next 10 days.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Jan 31, 2022)

Just off the basic Weather Channel forecast it looks like 1-3" on Thursday, 5-8" on Thursday night, and 5-8" on Friday. Even at the low end this could be a foot. Certainly something to keep an eye on.


----------



## djd66 (Jan 31, 2022)

SCWB is going very conservative on his most recent post https://madriverglenweather.blogspot.com/   He actually talks about ra*& and then switching over to snow with 4-10" total. I'm thinking he wants to back off the Dream Casting he did on the last storm.  Not one single flake fell on the MRV this past storm - wtf?

I am getting pretty frustrated with the lack of snow this year.  Natural snow trails are really beat to shit.  Even if you don't care about equipment, ... its just not fun to ski on rocks and dirt all season long. The brutally cold weather does not help either - especially if you are not skiing woods or moguls

Not sure where that forecast that Krusty just posted came from - I will take it!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Not sure where that forecast that Krusty just posted came from - I will take it!



it came from here - https://opensnow.com/dailysnow/newengland

and the automation feeding that interface has already dialed back a little. it changes in real time more or less. its not a trusted source. the narrative reports are what i use that site for, not the numbers 5 days out.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

We just need something. A straight 7 inches will make everything better this weekend.

... that's what my wife tells me...


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

djd66 and I are aligned in our thinking.  That's pretty unusual and It might be a first.  ;-)  We just need snow plain and simple.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 31, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I am getting pretty frustrated with the lack of snow this year.  Natural snow trails are really beat to shit.  Even if you don't care about equipment, ... its just not fun to ski on rocks and dirt all season long. The brutally cold weather does not help either - especially if you are not skiing woods or moguls



Agreed 100%. I'm definitely getting extremely frustrated as well. There's a lot of trails I have no desire to touch right now. These also have been some of the most consistently cold weekends I can remember a stretch of in a while. Seems like every weekend lately we've been dealing with temps either side of 0. Only good side is those cold temps help keep some people away a bit.


----------



## djd66 (Jan 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> djd66 and I are aligned in our thinking.  That's pretty unusual and It might be a first.  ;-)  We just need snow plain and simple.


30" and we can all have a big group hug!


----------



## tumbler (Jan 31, 2022)

I stopped reading the single chair weather a few years ago because the forecasts were rarely accurate and more wish casting as someone put it well earlier.


----------



## Los (Jan 31, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just off the basic Weather Channel forecast it looks like 1-3" on Thursday, 5-8" on Thursday night, and 5-8" on Friday. Even at the low end this could be a foot. Certainly something to keep an eye on.


Weather.com constantly overestimates snow totals by a wide margin. But I keep tabs just for fun. As of this moment they’ve upped their forecast to 14-23 inches. I won’t hold my breath!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

The kingslug effect..ill be home then..yall can buy me beers..i like IPA's


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The kingslug effect..ill be home then..yall can buy me beers..i like IPA's


So do I and would gladly buy you a beer if we get any snow!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

We will...have faith...jackson got no snow for weeks..it dumped all day here...
I bringeth...the snow


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> We will...have faith...jackson got no snow for weeks..it dumped all day here...
> I bringeth...the snow


Bring that snow Mr.Slug I’m planning for Thursday and Friday at Stowe if it pans out.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 31, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I stopped reading the single chair weather a few years ago because the forecasts were rarely accurate and more wish casting as someone put it well earlier.



I still think he's worth reading. He does a good job explaining the systems and dynamics and reasons for why he expects certain things to happen. Overall I think he's still more accurate than not, but you do have to absolutely watch out for him wish-casting with certain storms (i.e. this last one that really had little model support for what he was expecting would happen). I think it was actually me earlier in this thread that said he was wish-casting this storm before it happened.

Realistically he's just one more piece of information in the grand scheme of things. No single source is infallible and it makes sense to look at as many different sources as possible to see the range of possibilities and draw your own conclusions - i.e. Josh, Scott Braaten, BTV NWS forecast discussion, and even looking at some of the models yourself.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

Ill be there


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ill be there


If you go there, you’ll save me ten bucks!


----------



## cdskier (Jan 31, 2022)

A couple pics of Exterminator from Saturday. The thin cover is much more apparent looking back up the trail than it is looking down the trail. Definitely need snow!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> A couple pics of Exterminator from Saturday. The thin cover is much more apparent looking back up the trail than it is looking down the trail. Definitely need snow!
> 
> View attachment 52950
> 
> View attachment 52951


Looks like good "technical" skiing to me.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like good "technical" skiing to me.


Been so long since Utah got new snow you might be serious


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like good "technical" skiing to me.


I lapped it a few times. Honestly not bad all things considered. And still probably one of the natural snow trails with better coverage than many others.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Been so long since Utah got new snow you might be serious


Right?!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

Looks a bit thin but skiable for sure


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 1, 2022)

I’d  buy you a beer but how come it took so long  for the slo called slug effect?  Nevermind 

I’ll keep a eye out for shred monkey did you get that hth?  maybe we can do some runs


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 1, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> I’d  buy you a beer but how come it took so long  for the slo called slug effect?  Nevermind
> 
> I’ll keep a eye out for shred monkey did you get that hth?  maybe we can do some runs


If we get “slugged”, I’m hoping to break out my Branch Manager for the first time this season.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 1, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> If we get “slugged”, I’m hoping to break out my Branch Manager for the first time this season.


Then drink beers!


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 1, 2022)

I am looking for suggestions on showing my sister from SE Michigan a good time at Sugarbush March 4-7. She is a first year adult skier at a small 300’ vert hill in SE Michigan. She has had a few lessons and can ski basic parallel on blues and greens at pine knob in MI. She skis 1-2 times a week. She’s going to have a lesson or two with my husband who is an instructor (but doesn’t know the whole mtn that well yet because he teaches beginners). I’m just looking for suggestions on the best green to easy blue terrain progression for her. I hope we might be able to get her up to jester before the end of the trip. Easy Rider, >Pushover, > ?? Sleeper has bumps which she probably has never seen before but maybe could do on day 2 with instruction. Jester is pretty long but I think approachable if you take it pitch by pitch. Snowball and Spring Fling are usually pretty darn icy which I think can suck for a beginner. Same with Murphys. Birch Run might be nice for her. What about Mt Ellen? Other suggestions to make sure she enjoys herself?


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

Ellen would be a good option also.  From the top Rim Run, Elbow and looking good.  Then Cruiser, Witch Way and Northstar.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

Ya, the snow is not going to be a big deal and there will be icy roads to deal with.  People should not come up if they are expecting snow.


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## Newpylong (Feb 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like good "technical" skiing to me.


They need to rethink the notion of trading that acreage for hypothetical future coverage somewhere else and reconnect the snowmaking on that trail, for exactly seasons like this. It was put in for a reason...

ASC would fill it in to start and let natural (if we got any take it over) to bump up and it worked well. If there was lack of natural they would just groom it. We actually trained GS on it numerous times.


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## djd66 (Feb 1, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> They need to rethink the notion of trading that acreage for hypothetical future coverage somewhere else and reconnect the snowmaking on that trail, for exactly seasons like this. It was put in for a reason...
> 
> ASC would fill it in to start and let natural (if we got any take it over) to bump up and it worked well. If there was lack of natural they would just groom it. We actually trained GS on it numerous times.


I think they should fix the water issue before they expand the snow making (not that I'm opposed to that) They basically ran out of water this year and can't blow anywhere.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I think they should fix the water issue before they expand the snow making (not that I'm opposed to that) They basically ran out of water this year and can't blow anywhere.


Well, water in the MRV has ALWAYS been an issue.  And unlike the solutions Killington (Woodward Reservoir tie in) and Mount Snow (West Lake) employed at considerable costs, there isn't a tie in solution like that around SB.  So, to fix the water issue, SB basically has to dump huge $$ to create long term water storage.  Not cheap and I doubt ACT250 friendly to boot.  Could LBO have done their reservoir and improvements better back in the day?  Absolutely, but unfortunately it wasn't how LBO operated back then (Even SR has suffered from substandard piping feeding and on hill in their system).

SB would be fantastic if they ever were able to access water at the rate they wanted/needed all season.  The question is at what cost to get to that point and is it even feasible in tws of ROI?


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I think they should fix the water issue before they expand the snow making (not that I'm opposed to that) They basically ran out of water this year and can't blow anywhere.


Except that the water issues at LP have nothing to do with ME as they come from different sources. ME still has water and didn't have any issues with running out of water this year per the last blog post on this subject.


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## ducky (Feb 1, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> I am looking for suggestions on showing my sister from SE Michigan a good time at Sugarbush March 4-7. She is a first year adult skier at a small 300’ vert hill in SE Michigan. She has had a few lessons and can ski basic parallel on blues and greens at pine knob in MI. She skis 1-2 times a week. She’s going to have a lesson or two with my husband who is an instructor (but doesn’t know the whole mtn that well yet because he teaches beginners). I’m just looking for suggestions on the best green to easy blue terrain progression for her. I hope we might be able to get her up to jester before the end of the trip. Easy Rider, >Pushover, > ?? Sleeper has bumps which she probably has never seen before but maybe could do on day 2 with instruction. Jester is pretty long but I think approachable if you take it pitch by pitch. Snowball and Spring Fling are usually pretty darn icy which I think can suck for a beginner. Same with Murphys. Birch Run might be nice for her. What about Mt Ellen? Other suggestions to make sure she enjoys herself?


Get her on Gatehouse (Pushover) to start out, nothing steeper, and let her progress gradually. As an instructor myself I know there is nothing worse than pushing too fast, too steep. Build confidence and let her lead the progression.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

What you are forgetting is we are now owned by a very large corporation now that has money.  The snowmaking is on their agenda, coming soon and permits will not be an issue.


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## ss20 (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Except that the water issues at LP have nothing to do with ME as they come from different sources. ME still has water and didn't have any issues with running out of water this year per the last blog post on this subject.



I was always under the impression ME had plenty of water.  Maybe a connection pipe between LP/ME is a possible solution?  Killington just did that to connect Pico to Killington's system so they don't have to rely on the pond at Pico as much.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

For LP in simple terms they need to build a reservoir closer to the resort and then use the lower reservoir to refill the upper reservoir during higher flows, correct?


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I was always under the impression ME had plenty of water.  Maybe a connection pipe between LP/ME is a possible solution?  Killington just did that to connect Pico to Killington's system so they don't have to rely on the pond at Pico as much.


Yes, but that was a hugely contested issue because Pico is in a separate drainage from Killington proper.  Moving water from one drainage area to another was a large hurdle that took multiple years to clear.  My guess is Killington leveraged the potential interconnect and this the tie in of snowmaking when that happens to get the water link to Pico now.  Sugarbush does not have that same caveat waiting in the wings due to Slidebrook being never developed lands.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I was always under the impression ME had plenty of water.  Maybe a connection pipe between LP/ME is a possible solution?  Killington just did that to connect Pico to Killington's system so they don't have to rely on the pond at Pico as much.


I believe the pond at ME is relatively small, but due to the low capacity that ME has (only something like 2000-2500GPM if I remember correctly), it is sufficient for their needs and refills pretty good to keep up with that level of usage. I know the amount of terrain that ME can have snow-making on is limited due to their grand-fathered permit (hence why they disconnected Exterminator so they can potentially eventually put snow-making somewhere else at ME). I could be wrong, but I would assume that is primarily related to essentially a way to limit how much water they use. In that case, connecting LP and ME could violate that ME snow-making permit. I also don't know that the water storage amount at ME would be enough to keep up with the higher usage needs of LP anyway even if the permit wasn't an issue.



jimmywilson69 said:


> For LP in simple terms they need to build a reservoir closer to the resort and then use the lower reservoir to refill the upper reservoir during higher flows, correct?


That would likely be the ideal scenario and what was most recently discussed as the potential solution.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> For LP in simple terms they need to build a reservoir closer to the resort and then use the lower reservoir to refill the upper reservoir during higher flows, correct?


Sort of, they need a large enough storage set-up to not need a refill from the Mad River midseason or once min flow rates in the river happen (all depends on cold.  Early cold is great for snowmaking but can put the river to min flows early in too)


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

right but you fill the big reservoir in the summer and then hopefully refill it multiple times until the low flows appear on the Mad River.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

Hawk said:


> What you are forgetting is we are now owned by a very large corporation now that has money.  The snowmaking is on their agenda, coming soon and permits will not be an issue.


Hawk, I would agree to some extent.  However, pre-covid Alterra had a bunch of lift upgrades planed across many of it's resorts.  Unlike Vail which postponed those but reinstated all the following year, Alterra did not.  Nor have they mentioned plans for next year at places like Tremblant and Mammoth.  Mammoth is particularly peculiar as they were going to replace two major Yan converted by Dopp HSQs to HSS out of Main and Canyon bases.  Still no new plans for this.  Seems they have taken all their Capital investments to just Palisades and Steamboat these days.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> right but you fill the big reservoir in the summer and then hopefully refill it multiple times until the low flows appear on the Mad River.


I would agree, but building a big mountain level reservoir is not a cheap endeavor.  Especially if the desired location does not possess the correct soil types to hold water well.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Feb 1, 2022)

If they want more storage capacity during February freeze ups, then they should dig that Reservoir out to its full 61,000,000 gallon permitted capacity.  They stop digging that thing at about 25,000,000 gallons of which they can only use about 18,000,000 gallons.

Nothing is going to stop the river from freezing up in February, the only way to deal with that is to increase your storage capacity in the first place.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

machski said:


> Hawk, I would agree to some extent.  However, pre-covid Alterra had a bunch of lift upgrades planed across many of it's resorts.  Unlike Vail which postponed those but reinstated all the following year, Alterra did not.  Nor have they mentioned plans for next year at places like Tremblant and Mammoth.  Mammoth is particularly peculiar as they were going to replace two major Yan converted by Dopp HSQs to HSS out of Main and Canyon bases.  Still no new plans for this.  Seems they have taken all their Capital investments to just Palisades and Steamboat these days.


I am going from the words that were said directly to me from the horses mouth so to speak.  And they were said to me this year,  That makes it sort of post covid.  Look, they know the issue, they know the solution, they have a plan.  I was told it is a priority maybe not this year or next but in the near future.  Speculate all you want but for IKON in the East, Sugarbush is a gem in the rough and I think they have big plans.  What that means for us long time regulars and the locals is another discussion.


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## Newpylong (Feb 1, 2022)

I would trust the horses mouth as we can speculate all we want but they are the ones that have had the studies done.

As for using ME water for LP etc that is a non-starter. ME is limited by how much they can withdraw down by the school (and how fast the little Inverness pound refills naturally) and that is largely why their pumping capacity is undersized (and split between Inverness and the hill proper) for that much acreage. What they have refills fine for the pumping capacity, but no more.

My point in mentioning Exterminator was that it seems silly to decommission already permitted acreage when there is no infrastructure in place to swap it with something else. Use it until if and when more acreage is wished to be added to the system, then completely tear it out, not just disconnect it. I keep mentioning ASC, but for all their faults and cheap steel, they "blew the snot" out of everything. We had cold winters in the 90s too...

The plan going forward should be interesting.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> My point in mentioning Exterminator was that it seems silly to decommission already permitted acreage when there is no infrastructure in place to swap it with something else. Use it until if and when more acreage is wished to be added to the system, then completely tear it out, not just disconnect it. I keep mentioning ASC, but for all their faults and cheap steel, they "blew the snot" out of everything. We had cold winters in the 90s too...



It never made sense to me either to disconnect it for "future" use elsewhere. Although I'm still not really going to advocate for blowing snow on Ext anyway. Even right now it is skiing fairly well with minimal natural snow. I'd rather they blow on other trails at ME that I don't think they blew on yet like FIS. FIS doesn't seem to cover up as well with only limited natural snow. A bit of a man-made base to cover up all the rocks over there would be nice.

Also call me crazy, but I love the hydrants being left on Ext sticking out on the trails even if they aren't connected. Adds a unique character and I like skiing around them.


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## tumbler (Feb 1, 2022)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> If they want more storage capacity during February freeze ups, then they should dig that Reservoir out to its full 61,000,000 gallon permitted capacity.  They stop digging that thing at about 25,000,000 gallons of which they can only use about 18,000,000 gallons.
> 
> Nothing is going to stop the river from freezing up in February, the only way to deal with that is to increase your storage capacity in the first place.


This would be my plan also, dig out the current pond.  There is room for another pump down there and another 5 at base to send it up the hill high pressure.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

wasn't there a reason they didn't dig the thing out the entire way?


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

The problem with the existing pond is it get filled with new sediment everytime there is a big storm.  They have fixed and dug it out at least twice in the last 10 years and have replaced the pipe from that pond up to somewhere above.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

I'm also tempted to say I recall hearing they ran into an issue digging it out deeper due to a change in the soil type or something like that. (I.e. they hit solid rock that would have required significant blasting or something like that to get through)


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## WinS (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'm also tempted to say I recall hearing they ran into an issue digging it out deeper due to a change in the soil type or something like that. (I.e. they hit solid rock that would have required significant blasting or something like that to get through)


That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

WinS said:


> That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.



Yea...the plan I remember you previously sharing makes sense. I definitely hope to see Alterra follow through with it sooner rather than later as it will definitely take some time to implement and build out.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

although if the water is seeping in that would be free refills!   I know the challenges digging a major reservoir out anywhere, especially next to a river, are pretty major.  

New Weir, secondary reservoir are definitely a good way forward.


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## Newpylong (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> It never made sense to me either to disconnect it for "future" use elsewhere. Although I'm still not really going to advocate for blowing snow on Ext anyway. Even right now it is skiing fairly well with minimal natural snow. I'd rather they blow on other trails at ME that I don't think they blew on yet like FIS. FIS doesn't seem to cover up as well with only limited natural snow. A bit of a man-made base to cover up all the rocks over there would be nice.
> 
> Also call me crazy, but I love the hydrants being left on Ext sticking out on the trails even if they aren't connected. Adds a unique character and I like skiing around them.


Is that typical to also not make snow on Upper FIS now? That one absolutely need something down to bind to those rocks.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

WinS said:


> That is correct. It was permitted for 61 million gallons, but when the pond was being excavated water began seeping in at the current level and that was as far as ASC could dig. Envision digging in the sand new the water. You can go down so far and then water seeps in. As Hawk said, we had a plan that makes the most sense, and I believe that Alterra will support it. The first step was replacing the current weir in the Mad River and that is going forward.


I wonder if they could have drove in sheet piles around the perimeter to stablize the soil.  Actually I bet it would have had to be part of the permit process and not an after thought.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Is that typical to also not make snow on Upper FIS now? That one absolutely need something down to bind to those rocks.


I don't hthink it is typical.  I think they blew FIS last year?  Anybody?


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I don't hthink it is typical.  I think they blew FIS last year?  Anybody?


I recall them starting to blow snow on FIS last year and then a pipe blew. I can't recall if they ever went back to it after that.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I recall them starting to blow snow on FIS last year and then a pipe blew. I can't recall if they ever went back to it after that.


Ouch.  That sucks.  That is a steep trail to do a repair on in the off-season.

That trail is a personal favorite of mine.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Ouch.  That sucks.  That is a steep trail to do a repair on in the off-season.
> 
> That trail is a personal favorite of mine.


I'm hoping it is fixed by now since that was over a year ago...but for all I know maybe that's the reason they haven't touched it this year yet.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 1, 2022)

To be fair, nobody really skis the part of FIS that they blow snow on. That typically becomes pure ice and everyone resorts to the skier's left side of the trail with natural snow. It's virtually impossible to create a good, non-icy surface on a natural trail with snowmaking unless it is groomed at some point. Sunday River really has the problem of making snow on their natural trials, then just leaving it. All of these trails were pure ice and virtually unskiable when I went in February last year. Honestly a better route would be to abandon snowmaking on Upper FIS just like they did on Exterminator about 10 years ago.


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## Hawk (Feb 1, 2022)

I almost always ski the right side away from the guns.  Also I have to disagree with most everything you just said.  Sunday River makes some of the best man made snow on the planet.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> To be fair, nobody really skis the part of FIS that they blow snow on. That typically becomes pure ice and everyone resorts to the skier's left side of the trail with natural snow. It's virtually impossible to create a good, non-icy surface on a natural trail with snowmaking unless it is groomed at some point. Sunday River really has the problem of making snow on their natural trials, then just leaving it. All of these trails were pure ice and virtually unskiable when I went in February last year. Honestly a better route would be to abandon snowmaking on Upper FIS just like they did on Exterminator about 10 years ago.


Then it would never open.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> To be fair, nobody really skis the part of FIS that they blow snow on. That typically becomes pure ice and everyone resorts to the skier's left side of the trail with natural snow. It's virtually impossible to create a good, non-icy surface on a natural trail with snowmaking unless it is groomed at some point. Sunday River really has the problem of making snow on their natural trials, then just leaving it. All of these trails were pure ice and virtually unskiable when I went in February last year. Honestly a better route would be to abandon snowmaking on Upper FIS just like they did on Exterminator about 10 years ago.


Eh? Skier's left is under the guns...or do you mean between the guns and the tree-line where there's a little bit of room. I ski both skier's left and skier's right (and down the middle) depending on conditions. I've never had a particular issue anywhere they made snow on FIS. Whatever they've done in the past on that trail has worked well I think.


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## Lotso (Feb 1, 2022)

Skied LP today. Wonderful to ski in the sun with no wind and pleasant temps. Started on GH side with Birch and Sunrise- lovely surface and casual bumps on Sunrise. Then to Slowpoke and Sleeper. Jumped on SB then Domino and Lower Domino...very pleasant, given the lack of snowfall. Then laps on Jester/Snowball/LS/ SFling...'Jestercross' was a hoot with no traffic and fantastic snow.

And all this was after noon, so nice job on the surface, folks! 

Now let's hope we get the goods on Thursday and Friday...


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## mikec142 (Feb 1, 2022)

My big concern is the ride up...and then a secondary concern is where to stay (at mountain somewhere or further out).


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 1, 2022)

Last time I skied it in 2020 the skier’s right was pure ice and the skier’s left was much nicer in comparison. All of Sunday River’s natural trails with snowmaking were pure ice when I skied them compared to the ones without which were rather pleasant. Last year a bit of snow was made on FIS before the pipe burst but the rest of it opened on natural alone.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last time I skied it in 2020 the skier’s right was pure ice and the skier’s left was much nicer in comparison. All of Sunday River’s natural trails with snowmaking were pure ice when I skied them compared to the ones without which were rather pleasant. Last year a bit of snow was made on FIS before the pipe burst but the rest of it opened on natural alone.



If skier's right was pure ice, I can't see how that has much to do with snow-making. You may get some blowover from the guns (which would be lighter/drier snow and shouldn't really ice up much), but the majority of the man-made will be closer to the guns themselves on skier's left.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last time I skied it in 2020 the skier’s right was pure ice and the skier’s left was much nicer in comparison. All of Sunday River’s natural trails with snowmaking were pure ice when I skied them compared to the ones without which were rather pleasant. Last year a bit of snow was made on FIS before the pipe burst but the rest of it opened on natural alone.


Yes, the ungroomed experts at SR can get icy on the snowmaking snow, but often that is because those trails HAD SNOW prior to a R@!n event. Often, the pure naturals had nothing so no water saturated snow after the natural did fall.  We would never want the mountain not to make snow on say Shockwave, Top Gun, Vortex or Lost Princess.  Most of those would never open without snowmaking because of rock fields below.  Vortex opened once on 100% natural in '18 after the Snovember November.  Yes, it was awesome but you HAD to respect patrol bamboo pole markers or the end result would be very bad.

I do not know what Upper FISlooks like on bare ground, but it is quite a wide trail as compared to it's next door neighbor under the Summit Quad.  Without snowmaking, it would likely get windblown out at a minimum, resulting in it not being able to be open very often.


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## ducky (Feb 1, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last time I skied it in 2020 the skier’s right was pure ice and the skier’s left was much nicer in comparison. All of Sunday River’s natural trails with snowmaking were pure ice when I skied them compared to the ones without which were rather pleasant. Last year a bit of snow was made on FIS before the pipe burst but the rest of it opened on natural alone.


We ski the right, ice or not. It's called the mens tee for a reason.


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## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

machski said:


> I do not know what Upper FISlooks like on bare ground, but it is quite a wide trail as compared to it's next door neighbor under the Summit Quad.  Without snowmaking, it would likely get windblown out at a minimum, resulting in it not being able to be open very often.


A little rocky


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## pinion247 (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> A little rocky
> 
> 
> View attachment 52967



Wow, never realized it was that rocky. The few times I've been on it must have been great coverage (would have been 1999 and 2000). 

Also, slap a "thin cover" flag on that pic and it'd be "Open" at Wildcat.


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last time I skied it in 2020 the skier’s right was pure ice and the skier’s left was much nicer in comparison. All of Sunday River’s natural trails with snowmaking were pure ice when I skied them compared to the ones without which were rather pleasant. Last year a bit of snow was made on FIS before the pipe burst but the rest of it opened on natural alone.


This is what I don't get about your post.  The guns do not reach over to the right side so it is most likely blown in natural snow with a mix of the lighter man made that traveld all the way across.  Almost always good for me.  I think your limited experience with that trail has given you a bad impression.  Also at Sunday River, if a trail is a "natural" trail" it does not have snow making.  So what exactly are you talking about?  Again I think your experience is based on limited times spent there and not knowing which trails are natural or snowmaking.  I skied there for 15 years, 50 plus days a year so I truely understand what they do and how good it is on most days.


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## Lotso (Feb 2, 2022)

I usually stay right, from the men's tee, unless things are really slick on the entrance. More often than not, there is a nice line of bumps on the treeline. Can get pretty boney though. It really depends on the winds and the snow year. One of the best runs I had there was while tower guns were on, skiing under the guns themselves. Then skiing it right after it's been groomed....wow. I guess I am saying that it can have many different 'moods', from day to day and from side to side. Pretty cool for such a short trail. I imagine it won't see snowmaking this year, especially with the storm coming in. Might be a good thing!


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## jaybird (Feb 2, 2022)

This may all be moot Friday pm .. if Punxsutawney has any say in the matter


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2022)

What will be moot?


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## jaybird (Feb 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> What will be moot?


How FIS gets covered. The right side tree line has always relied on drifting. That problem doesn't exist on BDR 

Less turns .. more air


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2022)

Right!  I have not been over there in a couple of weeks and was wondering how the wind affected things.  The new snow should start heavey and get lighter hopefully.  Probably what we need.


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## Newpylong (Feb 2, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> To be fair, nobody really skis the part of FIS that they blow snow on. That typically becomes pure ice and everyone resorts to the skier's left side of the trail with natural snow. It's virtually impossible to create a good, non-icy surface on a natural trail with snowmaking unless it is groomed at some point. Sunday River really has the problem of making snow on their natural trials, then just leaving it. All of these trails were pure ice and virtually unskiable when I went in February last year. Honestly a better route would be to abandon snowmaking on Upper FIS just like they did on Exterminator about 10 years ago.



The pipe's are on skier's left, natural is skier's right. But what is a natural trail with snowmaking? Isn't that contradictory?

When snowmaking was first deployed on these trails, they were specifically chosen for a reason. Skier density, pitch, topology, etc and so on.

I keep bringing up ASC but, like with Exterminator, Upper FIS was opened on manmade (actually very early in the season) every single year and it just worked. If there were refreshes it was kept as is. If it locked up, they winched it. This is just the nature of the beast. As you can see from that picture, it takes a lot to get it covered au naturel. Sunday River is no different and they handle doing the same just fine. Sometimes when you catch things locked up it's best not to assume it's always that way.

We are talking about a manufactured problem. Snowmaking is paramount in New England to having a consistent product.


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## Castlerockrisk (Feb 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Right!  I have not been over there in a couple of weeks and was wondering how the wind affected things.  The new snow should start heavey and get lighter hopefully.  Probably what we need.


I skied BD yesterday, top is a mine field but bottom 80 percent is skiable. FIS is not skiable and a windblown rock garden- ugly. The skiers right of FIS relies on natural and blown in snow. The upper 10% middle of the run is always porcelain except for early and late season. From the 1970’s up until the past and current owners it was one of the best bump runs in America. Unfortunately the run has been neglected and I can only hope that management will once again return FIS to the king of bump runs. Black Diamond and FIS were the proving grounds for some of the best skiers in North America during the glory days of North.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2022)

This storm is looking good from the perspective of what we need on the mountain. Not so good for driving up there from points south...


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2022)

Bring back the Turkey Tumble!


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> This storm is looking good from the perspective of what we need on the mountain. Not so good for driving up there from points south...



its gonna come down to timing. i'm hoping its clear enough to take 95>91 late night friday/saturday morning. id prefer not to take 87>7>4>100 in the snow/slush. 100 kinda scares me in the no service dead zone after i had a near miss last month. otherwise may need to just scrap the Saturday ski and get up for a motel sat night and a ski sunday. either way so happy to see a storm coming in that will actually hit mountains.


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## Smellytele (Feb 2, 2022)

87 way looks like a better option as the back edge clears that way out a lot sooner than 95/91 route.


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2022)

So after a few good years with lift performance we seem to have hit a bit of a rough patch with mechanical issues.  Has there been turnover in the lift maint dept, budget issues?


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2022)

Why are you saying this?  Were there more issues this week?  I have my opinios but will get shouted down if I voice them.


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2022)

Just seems like more issues than usual especially on the weekends (when I'm mostly there).  Bravo & VH being down for a while.  GMX having issues, luckily Inverness for backup, NRX issues, stuck on it for 10+ minutes.  Looking today Bravo and NL both down for mechanical issues.  Not trying to stir the pot, just curious.  Big strides were made after a rough patch several years ago and just hoping not a backslide happening.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Just seems like more issues than usual especially on the weekends (when I'm mostly there).  Bravo & VH being down for a while.  GMX having issues, luckily Inverness for backup, NRX issues, stuck on it for 10+ minutes.  Looking today Bravo and NL both down for mechanical issues.  Not trying to stir the pot, just curious.  Big strides were made after a rough patch several years ago and just hoping not a backslide happening.



Yea...I've been noticing as well that there seem to be more issues than usual this year so far. I've seen several days with GH going on mechanical holds or having delayed starts as well. Definitely numerous mornings with GMX delayed which has been annoying when trying to decide whether to go over to ME to start the day or not.


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## Hawk (Feb 2, 2022)

Well there were those lightning strikes that Win mentioned.  Also I know that a bunch of mechanics left but I was strongly corrected in the past that those positions were filled.  Let's face it.  Sh*#'s getting old.  Altera has a long road ahead of them with lift and snowmaking projects.  Let's hope nothing major goes wrong so we loose a lift for a year like Sunday River.


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## cdskier (Feb 2, 2022)

Depends on the definition of "old". What's considered the life-span of a detachable chair these days? GMX is only 20 years old. SB, GH and several others are getting closer to 30 though. The other question though is what have the actual issues been? Is it things breaking down that are items that normally get replaced periodically as they wear out anyway? Or is it things breaking down that are more serious and more indicative of a lift being near the end of its life?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 2, 2022)

Not a lift expert at all..just a former chief of maintenance...20 years is getting old for most mechanical things. Metal fatigue sets in...


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## mikec142 (Feb 2, 2022)

It's looking like I'm driving up to Gore tonight to ski and hang with friends.  Skiing Gore on Thursday/Friday.  Gore tix sold out for Sat/Sun so thinking of driving from Gore to SB on Friday after skiing and skiing SB on Saturday.  All that depends on how I feel after skiing on Friday and what I think the roads will be like.  I could always drive Gore to Burlington, stay in Burlington on Friday night and head to the mountain on Saturday AM.  That might be the play.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> It's looking like I'm driving up to Gore tonight to ski and hang with friends.  Skiing Gore on Thursday/Friday.  Gore tix sold out for Sat/Sun so thinking of driving from Gore to SB on Friday after skiing and skiing SB on Saturday.  All that depends on how I feel after skiing on Friday and what I think the roads will be like.  I could always drive Gore to Burlington, stay in Burlington on Friday night and head to the mountain on Saturday AM.  That might be the play.



i'm having similar frets about road conditions and am just hoping that by late night friday/early morning saturday things have calmed to a point of safety. i love sugarbush, but the fastest and most direct routes for me all take me down some roads that sketch me out in the wrong conditions. I'm either going to middlebury/bristol and then taking 17 up and over which is short but dangerous and stressful, Brandon gap which can be fucked in snow, or taking 7>4>100 and driving route 100 for like 40 miles in pitch black with no cell service. I've opted to take the long way up 95>91 to just avoid these roads sometimes. spinning out on 100 a few weeks ago was really frightening and could have ended so much worse.


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## mikec142 (Feb 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm having similar frets about road conditions and am just hoping that by late night friday/early morning saturday things have calmed to a point of safety. i love sugarbush, but the fastest and most direct routes for me all take me down some roads that sketch me out in the wrong conditions. I'm either going to middlebury/bristol and then taking 17 up and over which is short but dangerous and stressful, Brandon gap which can be fucked in snow, or taking 7>4>100 and driving route 100 for like 40 miles in pitch black with no cell service. I've opted to take the long way up 95>91 to just avoid these roads sometimes. spinning out on 100 a few weeks ago was really frightening and could have ended so much worse.


Yeah...I completely get it.  I detailed my experience on Christmas Day on 89S from Burlington that could have ended really badly and that's stressed me out a bit.  Most of the time I'm driving to Burlington via 87N.  The last 2.5 hours are on single lane roads...the most nervewracking being 22A for 42 miles.  If I go directly to SB it's usually over the Brandon Gap and often on Friday as it's getting dark.  Later in the season I can usually do the vast majority if not all of the ride in the daylight.  But my most recent trip over MLK weekend was in the dark with no cell service.  Luckily the roads were fine.  But I definitely understand your stress and sympathize.

If I decide to head to SB or Burlington on Friday after skiing, it's 2-2.5 hours on mostly single lane roads after a lot of snow.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 2, 2022)

Thursday will be interesting no point  in going early , snow really won’t start until late day
Friday will be the day if   But I think very crowded
Don’t know if winds will be an issue
6-12  sweet    going out for some warm windy runs today
Two thoughts on getting fresh runs
Bolton Thursday night , could be horrible roads  though
Sno bowl Friday no big mountain shitshiw and a backside to explore  been a while since I have gone there  I haven’t   been anywhere this season


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2022)

Do we think the roads will be cleared up by Saturday? Driving up Saturday and staying for the week. We usually take 100 up from Brattleboro as the scenic route but if the roads will be a mess maybe that’s not the best idea


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## tumbler (Feb 2, 2022)

rocks860 said:


> Do we think the roads will be cleared up by Saturday? Driving up Saturday and staying for the week. We usually take 100 up from Brattleboro as the scenic route but if the roads will be a mess maybe that’s not the best idea


100 from Brattleboro, that's a long drive.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 2, 2022)

I have no clue why and this was my only time ever seeing it, but during January/February of the 19/20 ski season, the skier's right had what seemed to be man made snow covered in a sheet of ice. Nobody was skiing that side due to it being practically unskiable. Instead, people were skiing the skier's left closer to the tower guns where there was relatively thin cover. 

I typically use "natural", especially when referring to Sunday River to describe an ungroomed trail (eg. Tin Woodsman or South Paw). Both of those trails are rarely ever groomed from what I understand but still have snowmaking. I'd consider FIS to be a natural trail since it is almost never groomed even though it does still have snowmaking.


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## rocks860 (Feb 2, 2022)

tumbler said:


> 100 from Brattleboro, that's a long drive.


Yeah but it’s nice if you’re not in a hurry. Usually stop in Manchester for lunch then drive up by Okemo and killington and up by the falls


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## shadyjay (Feb 2, 2022)

100 from Brattleboro?  I'm assuming you'd take 30 to get to 100, as 100 runs N/S and closest it gets to Brattleboro is Wilmington.

There are a lot of tight curves/roads on 100 between Wilmington and Ludlow.  The section to the north has always seemed to have more "breathing room".  Then there's  always the Bridgewater "toll" to watch out for.  The climb up the east side of K-mart is pretty significant and could be a challenge.  My favorite way to go is still 107 to Stockbridge, then 100.

If you're stopping in Manchester for lunch (which if you do, you're taking 30 from BBoro to Manch-vegas)... I'd head up Rt 7 to Rutland and then cut over Rt 4.  Either way, on that side of the ridge, you still have to climb it to get to the eastern side, and that could be variable in a storm.  But given the traffic on Rt 4 heading to K-mart, by Sat you should be in good shape.


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## ThatGuy (Feb 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> id prefer not to take 87>7>4>100 in the snow/slush. 100 kinda scares me in the no service dead zone after i had a near miss last month.


Do you have snow tires, awd?
I’m driving home friday night and I’ll give you an update on the road conditions.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Do you have snow tires, awd?
> I’m driving home friday night and I’ll give you an update on the road conditions.



thanks. drive safe.

i have a nissan rogue awd but all season tires, and i'm at the end of my lease so they have like 35k miles on them, and i don't know yet if i am going to buy out the lease or get a new car so i have been reluctant to get snows. i've managed without them for the past few years but have had enough oh fuck moments that i now fully acknowledge the need, but it just wont be til next season when i know my long term car situation


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 2, 2022)

Wind is picking up at casa slug..very warm..about 38 degrees.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 2, 2022)

Wish me luck in my Grand Cherokee with snow tires driving from Albany to Sugarbush EARLY Saturday AM!


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 2, 2022)

Should be fine


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 2, 2022)

I have an all day lesson Saturday… with this storm I am keeping my fingers crossed to explore some new trails I have never been on before!


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## tumbler (Feb 3, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> I have an all day lesson Saturday… with this storm I am keeping my fingers crossed to explore some new trails I have never been on before!


I hope you get to!  Love the enthusiasm for learning.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

Roads already starting to get slick in the North country.  Gonna be a tough drive from here on out.  Be careful.


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## tumbler (Feb 3, 2022)

Gonna make a run for it in a few hours and stick to main roads with pavement and take it slow.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

In my experience, dirt roads are better in this situation.  The dirt mixes in with the snow and sleet and is more consistant.


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## tumbler (Feb 3, 2022)

Thanks.  It's only Roxbury Gap so not a huge deal to avoid.  It's the freezing rain that really effects the dirt roads, hopefully none of that.


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## skiur (Feb 3, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I have no clue why and this was my only time ever seeing it, but during January/February of the 19/20 ski season, the skier's right had what seemed to be man made snow covered in a sheet of ice. Nobody was skiing that side due to it being practically unskiable. Instead, people were skiing the skier's left closer to the tower guns where there was relatively thin cover.
> 
> I typically use "natural", especially when referring to Sunday River to describe an ungroomed trail (eg. Tin Woodsman or South Paw). Both of those trails are rarely ever groomed from what I understand but still have snowmaking. I'd consider FIS to be a natural trail since it is almost never groomed even though it does still have snowmaking.


That's great that you use "natural" to describe ungroomed, but pretty much every other skier/snowboarder uses the term "natural" to describe trails without snowmaking.


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## crank (Feb 3, 2022)

I drove up in a foot plus storm that started out as rain and freezing rain a bunch of years ago.  Even with my 4 wheel drive HIghlander it was definitely a white knuckle drive.

All y'all be careful out there.  We are flying out Saturday morning from Newark to Jackson Hole where there is no new snow.  Wishing we could pivot and drive to VT.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 3, 2022)

Well JH did get a big 3 inches a few days ago..trust me..its good there..plenty to ski on..


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## cdskier (Feb 3, 2022)

Still not quite sure when I'm getting up there. Hoping it clears out early enough tomorrow to drive up in the afternoon at some point.

I think I may need to start planning to spend some extended time in the MRV and just working from there mid-week instead of driving back and forth . One of the big reasons I was driving back and forth is no longer a factor...


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2022)

Ah yeah sorry, I meant 30 up to Manchester then 100 from about that area over to ludlow


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2022)

We probably won’t leave ct until about 10 on Saturday as we can’t check in at eagles until 4 so we would be up to the killington area until afternoon on Saturday. If the snow stops Friday I’m hoping we’re good taking 100 by Saturday afternoon


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2022)

you'll be totally fine by saturday daylight. it is now thru sunrise saturday that i am worried about driving. and i am hoping my worry for late Friday night/early Sat morning is misplaced and overblown. if things remain sketch tomorrow night, i do as you do and drive Saturday afternoon too, and i have zero drive worry if that is what goes down


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## rocks860 (Feb 3, 2022)

Couldn’t make it up last year for our normal week at sugarbush so I’m pumped to get there this year. What are the current covid regulations at the mountain? I only got out to magic last year and you basically couldn’t go inside at all


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## TSQURD (Feb 3, 2022)

rocks860 said:


> What are the current covid regulations at the mountain?



Masks inside.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 3, 2022)

Changed over. Snowing in the valley
With a little wind also
Here we go


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## TSQURD (Feb 3, 2022)

Send it this way please - Still 38* and rain at the base.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 3, 2022)

Dumping at Stowe...all....snow


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## TSQURD (Feb 3, 2022)

The RADAR is showing all snow, but looking out my window says otherwise.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2022)

a friend who lives near hardwick (northeast kingdom-ish) just posted that its now snowing 'after hours of dumping rain'


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## TSQURD (Feb 3, 2022)

And now we are all snow. Temp still needs to come down though


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

Two new webcams at North on Youtube.  One at Northridge and a new one at the bottem which is not online.  All cams show snowing.  It is a good thing to start off with heavey wet snow.  The base needs it.  There is plenty of time for the temps to drop.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 3, 2022)

also the rain should refill the reservoir at South for snowmaking.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

Jimmy the combo of some rain and the temps we had over the last 48 hours should make for plenty of water.  It will be interesting to see what they do.  They really need to blow Snowball, Spring Fling, Steins and Coffee run if we are to ski in April and make it to Cinco de Mayo.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 3, 2022)

Changed from light drizzle to snow here in Fayston (1400 ft) around Noon. Temps are falling.


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## cdskier (Feb 3, 2022)

Wonder what's up with North Lynx. Was on mechanical hold most (or maybe even all?) of the day yesterday and started off on hold today and has now switched to closed per the snow report status page.


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

Interesting.  Maybe a good time to rent the cabin cat. ?


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## WinS (Feb 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I recall them starting to blow snow on FIS last year and then a pipe blew. I can't recall if they ever went back to it after that.


Correct


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## Hawk (Feb 3, 2022)

Hell ride.  Actually not bad until after New London on 89 Exit 14 in NH then the fun began.  It is absolutely NUKING up here now. Less than 1/4 mile viz.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 4, 2022)

Thought of going to sb but stowe is easier ride...until i got behind the old woman in a volkswagon...who works here..thst slowed the conga line down a bit


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2022)

It is 17 and snowing moderately this morning with barely any wind.  I would say about 10" so far.  NWS is saying another 3 to 5.  It's not the 18 to 24 they were saying but we will certainly take it.  Tons of people out this morning.  I think it is going to be busy like Street Skier was saying the other day.


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## SkiTheEast (Feb 4, 2022)

Just fyi, heard that a portion of German Flats was closed as of 7:30 this morning. Apparently an 18 wheeler jack knifed on the hill near Sugar Run so plan accordingly.


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## tumbler (Feb 4, 2022)

Better not be the beer truck!


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## tumbler (Feb 4, 2022)

Looks like North Lynx is dead.  Anyone got an update?


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 4, 2022)

webcam for mT ellen base has a ton of snow and no line at the lift...lucky bastards.


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## Lotso (Feb 4, 2022)

Love the lift cams...very helpful


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## Smellytele (Feb 4, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> webcam for mT ellen base has a ton of snow and no line at the lift...lucky bastards.


The bottom of gmx isn’t a good measuring stick for the line. It is a transport to the upper 2 lifts


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## Lotso (Feb 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The bottom of gmx isn’t a good measuring stick for the line. It is a transport to the upper 2 lifts


NRE is basically ski on all day. Big fun


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The bottom of gmx isn’t a good measuring stick for the line. It is a transport to the upper 2 lifts


oh yeah i forgot about that. I always do top to bottom runs at Mt Ellen so I'm always getting on that lift. I haven't been there since 2019...my march 2020 trip was.... well, you know....

But I'll be there next week


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## Joshco0752 (Feb 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The bottom of gmx isn’t a good measuring stick for the line. It is a transport to the upper 2 lifts


There seems to be a new webcam that's showing the lift line at the NR chair. There was no line there either from the webcam at the lift.


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> There seems to be a new webcam that's showing the lift line at the NR chair. There was no line there either from the webcam at the lift.


And the Walt's Scenic cam also allows you to see the line at the Summit chair...which also seemed to be minimal most of the time today from what I saw on that cam.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Better not be the beer truck!


Guiness Truck so yes.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> There seems to be a new webcam that's showing the lift line at the NR chair. There was no line there either from the webcam at the lift.


Mentioned that yesterday.  There is also a second camera at the base that has not come on line yet.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Looks like North Lynx is dead.  Anyone got an update?


Been dead for a couple of days.  Something to do with electical.  Maybe a water issue in the wiring?  I head something like that.  they are trying to get it up for tomorrow.


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## Hawk (Feb 4, 2022)

So today.  Excellent!  was in line at bravo at 8:25 and there were about 100 people there already.  got up on maybe the 25th chair?  something like that.  My early estimate was wrong. . Up on the mountain above allyns there was probably 16-18" of snow that had a dense underlayer and got lighter as it accunulated..  Skied awsome.  Just what we needed.  Went to HG, lift broke.  Castlerock was packed and had bunches of people around the turn doubled back so we did not ski it.  All natural trails like Domino, Moodshine and Lixis are all good  packed Pow with only a touch of the base showing.  Hit the bus when HG went down and over to Ellen.  There may have been even more snow there.  Tumbler, Bravo, Encore, Hammerhead all skied great.  FIs looked in better shape wut we skiing Black Diamond instead.  It was in great shape with only a few rocks showing.  Looking good woods skied well also.  Storm was jsut what we needed.  No lines at all at Ellen but once HG broke down, Lincoln Peak was medium lines.  First time I have seen cars in Lot F on a Friday.


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## WinS (Feb 4, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Interesting.  Maybe a good time to rent the cabin cat. ?





tumbler said:


> Looks like North Lynx is dead.  Anyone got an update?


From what I understand water leaked through the roof into the drive. Envision spilling a glass of water on your PC. My guess is this is a complicated fix of the drive electrical system.


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## WinS (Feb 4, 2022)

Hawk said:


> So today.  Excellent!  was in line at bravo at 8:25 and there were about 100 people there already.  got up on maybe the 25th chair?  something like that.  My early estimate was wrong. . Up on the mountain above allyns there was probably 16-18" of snow that had a dense underlayer and got lighter as it accunulated..  Skied awsome.  Just what we needed.  Went to HG, lift broke.  Castlerock was packed and had bunches of people around the turn doubled back so we did not ski it.  All natural trails like Domino, Moodshine and Lixis are all good  packed Pow with only a touch of the base showing.  Hit the bus when HG went down and over to Ellen.  There may have been even more snow there.  Tumbler, Bravo, Encore, Hammerhead all skied great.  FIs looked in better shape wut we skiing Black Diamond instead.  It was in great shape with only a few rocks showing.  Looking good woods skied well also.  Storm was jsut what we needed.  No lines at all at Ellen but once HG broke down, Lincoln Peak was medium lines.  First time I have seen cars in Lot F on a Friday.


Lot G filled too and HG reopened. It was an awesome morning and first day in the woods. I bet tomorrow will be busy too.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 4, 2022)

drooling.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> drooling.


So… is it possible to have to much snow? Had multiple woods failures today, humping thru thigh deep, untracked. Runs we have done many times over the years, FAIL. Is it we are out of practice, too many trees down or was just too much snow? Is that even f’ing possible? Do the woods really change that much from year to year? You guys stop pruning!? God. Beers never tasted so good this afternoon, thanks Kingslug!


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 4, 2022)

Skiing deep pow is simply not easy...trees i imagine are not easy either if its super deep...


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## bumpsAndTrees (Feb 5, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> So… is it possible to have to much snow? Had multiple woods failures today, humping thru thigh deep, untracked. Runs we have done many times over the years, FAIL. Is it we are out of practice, too many trees down or was just too much snow? Is that even f’ing possible? Do the woods really change that much from year to year? You guys stop pruning!? God. Beers never tasted so good this afternoon, thanks Kingslug!


There seems to be much less pruning than there used to be, both by the mountain and privately. Exterminator woods were very much overgrown yesterday. Exterminator was always tight, but with the minimal snowpack & lack of pruning, has become treacherous. I don’t ski Walt’s much, but it had no obvious exit.


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## bumpsAndTrees (Feb 5, 2022)

bumpsAndTrees said:


> There seems to be much less pruning than there used to be, both by the mountain and privately. Exterminator woods were very much overgrown yesterday. Exterminator was always tight, but with the minimal snowpack & lack of pruning, has become treacherous. I don’t ski Walt’s much, but it had no obvious exit.


I might add that Mad River Glen doesn’t seem to have this problem. Unfortunately, the lift lines were horrendous there yesterday.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 5, 2022)

MRG must be on ok shape now after this..i hope..


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## Tonyr (Feb 5, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> So… is it possible to have to much snow? Had multiple woods failures today, humping thru thigh deep, untracked. Runs we have done many times over the years, FAIL. Is it we are out of practice, too many trees down or was just too much snow? Is that even f’ing possible? Do the woods really change that much from year to year? You guys stop pruning!? God. Beers never tasted so good this afternoon, thanks Kingslug!


Too much snow can definitely make the trees more challenging especially if the run isn't super steep and the snow is heavy. You end up humping through alot of stuff on the untouched snow when your momentum stops. Looks like a great day was had though yesterday!


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## Hawk (Feb 5, 2022)

It's an experience thing and you learn the snow type and quality as you go.  The snow we recieved Friday was pretty heavy underneith and about 18 to 20 " deep.  Fat skis, tip rocker and speed are your 3 friends that keep you up and going.  If you are heavier, it is certainly a disadvantage because you sink sooner when your speed decreases and once that happens, the snow on your legs slows you even more.  At north yesterday I sank and got stuck a bunch usually at the bottom of steeper pitches.  I knew better but got lured in.  The tip is to find steeper terrain and make less short truns.  You will plane out higher in the snow.  Pow loves speed!  The other thing you can do is follow another track and go in and out as you slow down.
So no there is no such thing to have too much snow.  Well unless it shuts down the ski area but that usually only happens out West.
Now back out for phase 2.  Afternoon skin.


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## Hawk (Feb 5, 2022)

bumpsAndTrees said:


> There seems to be much less pruning than there used to be, both by the mountain and privately. Exterminator woods were very much overgrown yesterday. Exterminator was always tight, but with the minimal snowpack & lack of pruning, has become treacherous. I don’t ski Walt’s much, but it had no obvious exit.


Private pruning?  In the national forest?  I don't think so.  All pruning is done by the mountain and pre approved by the us Forest service.  In my opinion it is mostly an issue with the thin snow pack.  Most years by now we have 3 or 4 feet in the woods or on the trials.  That is the difference.


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## WinS (Feb 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> It's an experience thing and you learn the snow type and quality as you go.  The snow we recieved Friday was pretty heavy underneith and about 18 to 20 " deep.  Fat skis, tip rocker and speed are your 3 friends that keep you up and going.  If you are heavier, it is certainly a disadvantage because you sink sooner when your speed decreases and once that happens, the snow on your legs slows you even more.  At north yesterday I sank and got stuck a bunch usually at the bottom of steeper pitches.  I knew better but got lured in.  The tip is to find steeper terrain and make less short truns.  You will plane out higher in the snow.  Pow loves speed!  The other thing you can do is follow another track and go in and out as you slow down.
> So no there is no such thing to have too much snow.  Well unless it shuts down the ski area but that usually only happens out West.
> Now back out for phase 2.  Afternoon skin.


Hawk is absolutely correct. The marked wooded areas at Lincoln Peak were approved by the USFS as part of Sugarbush’s forest management plan with them. They do not take kindly at all to any unauthorized cutting and hold Sugarbush accountable. They are supportive of the current open wood policy but could shut that down and allow only trail skiing if they felt Sugarbush was not following their directions on cutting. A few year ago someone did some serious cutting off of North Lynx and they were furious.


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## jaybird (Feb 5, 2022)

WinS said:


> Hawk is absolutely correct. The marked wooded areas at Lincoln Peak were approved by the USFS as part of Sugarbush’s forest management plan with them. They do not take kindly at all to any unauthorized cutting and hold Sugarbush accountable. They are supportive of the current open wood policy but could shut that down and allow only trail skiing if they felt Sugarbush was not following their directions on cutting. A few year ago someone did some serious cutting off of North Lynx and they were furious.


Yeah .. that lean-to was ridiculous


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 6, 2022)

Think ill head to sb tomorrow for a change..


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## Smellytele (Feb 6, 2022)

Why wasn’t summit quad at Ellen running today?


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## Lotso (Feb 6, 2022)

Any chance this weekend set a record for skier visits on a non-holiday WE? Crazy crowds but glad they could spread out.


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## Smellytele (Feb 6, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Any chance this weekend set a record for skier visits on a non-holiday WE? Crazy crowds but glad they could spread out.


Skied mt Ellen in the morning and crowds were not bad at all. Went over to Lincoln in the after noon and had no lines except bravo and last run up gate house around 3. Even CR had no line. Parking at Lincoln on the other hand.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Skied mt Ellen in the morning and crowds were not bad at all. Went over to Lincoln in the after noon and had no lines except bravo and last run up gate house around 3. Even CR had no lune. Parking at Lincoln on the other hand.


I skied LP from 8-1 today. Longest line I waited in was 5 minutes at SB once (and most of that was due to it stopping for a couple minutes). I did stay away from GH and CR though, so perhaps there were some longer lines there. I was expecting much worse with the number of cars I saw already in the lot a few minutes before 8 when I got there.


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## WinS (Feb 6, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Why wasn’t summit quad at Ellen running today?


When the lift was being checked this morning, two sheaves were in need of replacing. . They were replaced and the lift opened.


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## WinS (Feb 6, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Any chance this weekend set a record for skier visits on a non-holiday WE? Crazy crowds but glad they could spread out.


Close. But we had a slightly larger day a few years ago over MLK. I suspect it was largest non-holiday though.


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## Lotso (Feb 6, 2022)

WinS said:


> Close. But we had a slightly larger day a few years ago over MLK. I suspect it was largest non-holiday though.


Thanks. Yeah, I am counting Fri-Sun, no holiday. Parking to the road and beyond on ME access rd is my barometer. Nutty but nutty is good for business. Nice that the jitney came down the road.


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## cdskier (Feb 6, 2022)

The gunpowder on Stein's today was excellent btw...


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## teleo (Feb 7, 2022)

Top of snowball too.  Glad to see some depth being added for april and may.


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## Hawk (Feb 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The gunpowder on Stein's today was excellent btw...


I will totally agree.  Did you ski the center of the trail over the huge whales?  They were super steep on the back side and the snow sluff would cascade down in front of you like in you see in those videos from AK.  Well kind of.  LOL  I will admit the qualiy was fine on Steins.


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## Hawk (Feb 7, 2022)

When North Links started up around 2 on Saturday it was like a frenzy.  People pouring into slide brook.  I have to say it kills me to see groups of people snowplowing on that terrain and asking how to get back to the resort.  It happened to me on more that one occasion.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 7, 2022)

Hey all, quick question re: the new app.

I can log into my sugarbush acct online at the SB website no issues.

I try to log into the new app with the same user name/PW as my Sugarbush acct and i get a a message that says "not authorized".

any advice on what to do to get into the app? I'm coming up with the kids wed/Thursday and want to know lift status, trail status, what's groomed etc. They had that on the old app I assume they have it on this one. 

Thanks!


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## pinion247 (Feb 7, 2022)

Hawk said:


> When North Links started up around 2 on Saturday it was like a frenzy.  People pouring into slide brook.  I have to say it kills me to see groups of people snowplowing on that terrain and asking how to get back to the resort.  It happened to me on more that one occasion.


This sort of thing "feels" more common in the past 5 years, seemingly correlated with the uptick in skier visits across all mountains. Watching people boot out of Elevator Shaft at Wildcat, snowplow down Centennial Trees at Deer Valley, and ragdoll slide through Ripcord at Snow. Would not surprise me if something like Slide Brook is getting the same treatment. Do they still market SB as "official sidecountry" like they used to? Haven't been to Bush in 12 years sadly.

*edit: reading Sugarbush's blog and it seems like they are on top of their communication/explanation strategy more-so than other NE mountains. I gotta get up there, if not this year, then definitely next year.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 7, 2022)

gapers sliding down ripcord at mount snow is a tale as old as time and a short marked black trail with a short but steep headwall is not remotely in the same conversation as thousands of acres of unpatrolled tree skiing.


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I will totally agree.  Did you ski the center of the trail over the huge whales?  They were super steep on the back side and the snow sluff would cascade down in front of you like in you see in those videos from AK.  Well kind of.  LOL  I will admit the qualiy was fine on Steins.


I stuck more to the right, although did go a bit more towards center over some of the whales a few times. I did enjoy watching the snow cascade down in front of me lol!


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Hey all, quick question re: the new app.
> 
> I can log into my sugarbush acct online at the SB website no issues.
> 
> ...



To be blunt...the new app sucks. Better off looking at the website for lift and trail status as the app doesn't show grooming status and shows all the trails in 1 giant alphabetical list.

That said, you don't need to sign in to use at least the basic features of the app. (Annoying that it constantly prompts you to login, but you can just hit "dismiss"). I believe the app has its own login/account that you'd need to create separate from the SB website account.


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## teleo (Feb 7, 2022)

Just bookmark the website conditions page and the youtube channel live video feed page.  Still not great, but much better than the app.


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## rocks860 (Feb 7, 2022)

Yeah the app has a separate login, for what purpose I have no idea


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## ducky (Feb 7, 2022)

Deleted it. Useless.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 7, 2022)

So I got into it, its tied to your IKON acct not your sugarbush acct. i just had to create an acct in the app.

Once I got in, i saw how useless it is. what a waste the other 1 was great with the grooming trails pink, etc.

and then I deleted it. 

Is there any way to see what trails are groomed on a given day now?  thanks!


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> So I got into it, its tied to your IKON acct not your sugarbush acct. i just had to create an acct in the app.
> 
> Once I got in, i saw how useless it is. what a waste the other 1 was great with the grooming trails pink, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes...the snow report on the website. The information is accurate and updated every day. Lift information is updated pretty close to real-time as well if something is delayed, or on a hold etc.





__





						Sugarbush Summer Report & Mountain Conditions
					

Discover all information surrounding open bike trails, and lift operations here!




					www.sugarbush.com


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yes...the snow report on the website. The information is accurate and updated every day. Lift information is updated pretty close to real-time as well if something is delayed, or on a hold etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! anyone been to mount ellen lately? wondering which non black trails have been left alone to get moguls. Me and my kids are working on getting better at moguls, bumps on blacks is still above my our pay grade.  Lower FIS used to get bumpy and wasn't too steep either.  And I cant wait to ski walts!!! thx!


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Thanks! anyone been to mount ellen lately? wondering which non black trails have been left alone to get moguls. Me and my kids are working on getting better at moguls, bumps on blacks is still above my our pay grade.  Lower FIS used to get bumpy and wasn't too steep either.  And I cant wait to ski walts!!! thx!


I haven't been to ME since before the storm, but I do look at the trail report every day and scroll through what was groomed. I don't recall seeing Semi-Tough, Walts, or Upper Lookin Good on the groomed list recently. Those would probably be the main non-blacks that don't get groomed too often. Lower FIS hasn't been groomed either, but that's a black, although you're already familiar with it so it certainly meets the bumped up criteria.


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## mikec142 (Feb 7, 2022)

While I was sad to miss out on Sugarbush this past weekend, I made it to Gore.  Drove up with a buddy late on Wednesday night.  Skied Thursday by myself.  It was raining lightly at the base, but a third of the way up the gondola it changed over to snow.  Stayed up top for the day and ended up having a really great time.  I'm going to guess that it was me and about 99 other people at the mountain.  Ski onto any lift.  Friday it nuked snow all day and I think that the treacherous driving kept people away.  There might have been a 2-3 minute line at the Gondola but everywhere else was pretty much ski on.  I think they said they ended up with about 20" total.  The glades off of Burnt Ridge were amazing. Saturday was bluebird and crowded.  The parking lot was busier than I had ever seen it.  That said, the gondola line was only about 8-10 minutes.  The Burnt Ridge quad is usally ski on and there was a long but fast moving line there.  I think they are so unused to having crowds over there that they didn't set up a rope queue and the line went about 100 yards up the hill. 

Not sure when I'm getting back to SB...I think my wife would be pretty unforgiving if I was AWOL four out of five weekends and then followed that up with a trip out west.


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## tumbler (Feb 7, 2022)

So sitting in Gatehouse upstairs this weekend and I noticed over both entry doors something that looked like a RFID reader.  I know we are getting tracked at every lift but are they tracking how much you use the lodge?  Data, data, data.

Great weekend, less lines on Sunday was nice.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 7, 2022)

Hit SB today..much windier than expected. Top lifts were closed so i ended up at CR for a while. Middle earth was pretty banged up..CR run and Cotillion in much better shape. Should have hit Steins...looks sporty.


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## WinS (Feb 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Hey all, quick question re: the new app.
> 
> I can log into my sugarbush acct online at the SB website no issues.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. It should work. Maybe try your email and then password. That’s how I do it. To get basic info though you don’t need to log in, just get new app. It is different and you will need to learn to navigate it.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 7, 2022)

Heard Slidebrook will not run this season?


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## Smellytele (Feb 7, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heard Slidebrook will not run this season?


Someone said that to me the other day as well. Not a known source just some random guy.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 7, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heard Slidebrook will not run this season?


Heard the same thing -- was sitting next to someone in Mountain Ops after work at the Reks yesterday who told us that. Also that Saturday was SB's second busiest day (i can't remember, it was either second-busiest or second-busiest non-holiday day). I said "well, at least we know that's the worst it's going to get", and the response was something like "wait until all the Epic people defect next year".


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## pinion247 (Feb 7, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heard Slidebrook will not run this season?











						An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
					

What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.




					blog.sugarbush.com


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
> 
> 
> What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.
> ...


Well, that blog entry predates the last storm(s).  Any update?


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## pinion247 (Feb 7, 2022)

“However, the reality is at this point we’re not optimistic that Slide Brook will spin this year. The main reason for this is predominantly staffing.”

Read that earlier today and thought it was relevant to this convo.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 7, 2022)

Guess..its the bus...


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heard Slidebrook will not run this season?



This was mentioned a little over 10 pages ago in this thread due to staffing issues 



cdskier said:


> An Update on Snowmaking, Slide Brook, and Uphill Travel - SugarBlog
> 
> 
> What's happening with Lincoln Peak snowmaking? Will Slide Brook run? How's uphill travel been lately? Get these answers and more.
> ...



On a related topic...it is amazing how many people don't read the blog posts that Sugarbush posts. I spoke to numerous people on the lifts this weekend that had no idea the reason building spring depths on Steins and Snowball/Spring Fling was delayed was due to running out of water (and one of those people even works for SB and said "wow...usually I hear these things through the grape-vine earlier").


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## pinion247 (Feb 7, 2022)

Not the best news I’m sure, but it could be worse. 

If SB were a Vail property they just wouldn’t say anything. That or the EpicMix app would claim it’s open with a mid-station loading in the basin.


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## cdskier (Feb 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Not the best news I’m sure, but it could be worse.
> 
> If SB were a Vail property they just wouldn’t say anything. That or the EpicMix app would claim it’s open with a mid-station loading in the basin.


And at least even without this lift you can still access all terrain. Not having this lift doesn't even have an impact on uphill capacity in reality. Definitely not ideal, but also not necessarily a huge issue.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> And at least even without this lift you can still access all terrain. Not having this lift doesn't even have an impact on uphill capacity in reality. Definitely not ideal, but also not necessarily a huge issue.



its actually kinda better for the people who consciously ski mount ellen to avoid crowds. 

but slidebrook87 is PISSED


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## djd66 (Feb 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> This was mentioned a little over 10 pages ago in this thread due to staffing issues


personally,… I kind of question the staffing issue.  Are there not enough lift opps?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 8, 2022)

I went to paradise provisions for a sandwich..deli closed..all out sick with covid.
I don't question this anymore..


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## Hawk (Feb 8, 2022)

The slidebrook chair does not really affect me personally.  The only time I really take it is when I have visitors that ask to go on it.  I either take the bus or drive there and start my day.  Basically it is a no go for my wife.  Especially on colder days.  3 high speed quads in a row(GH, SB and NR) and she is frozen and done.  

I know for a fact that the numbers are down with the Lift ops personel and they have a large number of inexperienced new people.  Also with the thin numbers, if someone gets sick, there is no one to replace them and they have to pull from other areas.  if any lift is sacrificed that is the one I want.


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## Hawk (Feb 8, 2022)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Heard the same thing -- was sitting next to someone in Mountain Ops after work at the Reks yesterday who told us that. Also that Saturday was SB's second busiest day (i can't remember, it was either second-busiest or second-busiest non-holiday day). I said "well, at least we know that's the worst it's going to get", and the response was something like "wait until all the Epic people defect next year".


I have not been in Rek's this year.  Kind of forgot about it.  How is Deano doing with this venture?  Food good?  any music?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 8, 2022)

Yup


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I have not been in Rek's this year.  Kind of forgot about it.  How is Deano doing with this venture?  Food good?  any music?


Dino's music is not my kind of music (and I'm going to suspect not yours either lol). He's doing his "Rock the Bush" show in early March at the Reks featuring a number of hip hop artists.

I've been into Mutha Stuffers a few times already this year for a sandwich, but haven't eaten at Reks yet. I did have a burger from the Reks last season. It is ok for something close to the village if you don't feel like going any further. I don't know if he changed it much, but his menu was fairly limited last time I saw it at the Reks.


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## Hawk (Feb 8, 2022)

LOL Ya I know Dino's taste.  Too his credit, he has had some of the bigger names in NYC Hip Hop up at the bush in past years.  Tickets were big money if I remember correctly.  I was wonderng if he has had any apre music or local bands.  I will have to stop in.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> LOL Ya I know Dino's taste.  Too his credit, he has had some of the bigger names in NYC Hip Hop up at the bush in past years.  Tickets were big money if I remember correctly.  I was wonderng if he has had any apre music or local bands.  I will have to stop in.


back east from snowy BC.  got really lucky out there but time to head back up to the bush.  
personally, slidebrook lift does 'nothing for me.  would be nice for the tourists.


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## tumbler (Feb 8, 2022)

I'm glad they have the staff to run all the lifts except SB.  An easy one to sacrifice.  That and Tommy's Toy 

Saturday was definitely way up there for the size of the crowds I have seen over the past 25+ years.  I feel that there will be some epic switchovers to Ikon and I hope Alterra is planning for that with improvements beyond snowmaking.  I bring it up every year but a real mid mountain lodge at top of GH would really help take the load off GH lodge and since VH is now all Wunderbar with no cafeteria.  New lodge would be great venue for weddings too.  Some aging HSQ's, I would make GH a six pack and add a lift up to the GH flats from the intersection of CR Runout and Header so you can get up there without standing in GH line.  I know not happening next year but fun to discuss.


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## Smellytele (Feb 8, 2022)

Lifts and snowmaking. Don’t care about lodges. Just need rest rooms.   Besides using a restroom I have not been in a lodge in over 2 years. Not even a mountain bar.

Edit:
I lied I have been into Pats peak  lodge on race nights 3 times this year.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 8, 2022)

Last weekend really showed the issues with not having it going on such a busy weekend. The bus stops at both sides were packed. There was only one bus running the route and was at least 10 minutes late by the time it arrived. There was a long line of traffic going into the Ellen base so the ride took about 25 minutes since we were at a standstill for awhile. On the way back the bus was late again and packed as it was. When stopping at German Flats the bus seats were already full with people from Ellen and the driver was able to let some people on, but it was standing room only. Most couldn't get on the bus. Because of the stop and some more traffic, the bus was late again. Point being, the lift is far more convenient (13 minute ride without taking skis off), but if it truly can't run this year, then there should at least be a better bus system. One bus on busy weekends simply isn't enough. I heard that a bunch of people were waiting only for the bus to pull in and have the driver go on lunch break. When you ski Lincoln you pay nearly $170 depending on the day which counts towards both mountains. It should be more convenient to ski both in one day, lift or not. I could be wrong, but wasn't Slide Brook one of the lifts struck by lightning this summer that has yet to be repaired?


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## Hawk (Feb 8, 2022)

The bus was fine. Your being dramatic to suit your story.  I rode it also and had no issues on Saturday.  None.  You must have been on the bus first thing which is always Busy,  FYI - The slidebrook used to open at 10am.  At that time on Saturday the bus was not crowded at all so your point is basically mute.  That lift is not going to open so people need to adapt and I am fine with that.


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Last weekend really showed the issues with not having it going on such a busy weekend. The bus stops at both sides were packed. There was only one bus running the route and was at least 10 minutes late by the time it arrived. There was a long line of traffic going into the Ellen base so the ride took about 25 minutes since we were at a standstill for awhile. On the way back the bus was late again and packed as it was. When stopping at German Flats the bus seats were already full with people from Ellen and the driver was able to let some people on, but it was standing room only. Most couldn't get on the bus. Because of the stop and some more traffic, the bus was late again. Point being, the lift is far more convenient (*13 minute ride *without taking skis off) but if it truly can't run this year, then there should at least be a better bus system. One bus on busy weekends simply isn't enough. I heard that a bunch of people were waiting only for the bus to pull in and have the driver go on lunch break. When you ski Lincoln you pay nearly $170 depending on the day which counts towards both mountains. It should be more convenient to ski both in one day, lift or not. I could be wrong, but wasn't Slide Brook one of the lifts struck by lightning this summer that has yet to be repaired?



13 minute lift ride ONCE you get to the lift. If you're skiing HG or off Super Bravo or CR, you need to then take the GH lift to get to the Slide Brook chair. So add in another 10-15 minutes for the GH lift ride plus waiting in line at GH on a busy day. In the end, it often really isn't as much of a difference as you think it is at least going from LP to ME. Going from ME to LP is a bit faster since the SB lift on that side is more centrally located no matter where you're skiing at ME for the most part. You're still blowing this a bit out of proportion though. It really isn't a big deal to not have the lift this year.

Also, how do you propose they offer a "better bus system"? I somehow doubt that GMT has a surplus of staff on their end.

Finally, anyone that pays $170 for a day ticket at SB is nuts.


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## Smellytele (Feb 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The bus was fine. Your being dramatic to suit your story.  I rode it also and had no issues on Saturday.  None.  You must have been on the bus first thing which is always Busy,  FYI - The slidebrook used to open at 10am.  At that time on Saturday the bus was not crowded at all so your point is basically mute.  That lift is not going to open so people need to adapt and I am fine with that.


On Sunday I drove from Ellen to Lincoln around 12:30 and there was no real traffic. Find a spot to park and life was good


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## mikec142 (Feb 8, 2022)

Slidebrook not running this year is disappointing, but certainly far from life changing.  Over the years, I've spent most of my time at LP.  I'd like to even that out a bit so any way I can make it more convenient would be great.  All things being equal, I'd prefer to ride SB.  But again, I'll survive (seeing how I have little choice)


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## HowieT2 (Feb 8, 2022)

It could be also that with the impending end to snowmaking operations and the precipitous decline in covid cases in vt, that the staffing shortages will ease somewhat in the next few weeks such that they can run the lift


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2022)

The simple fact that Slide Brook doesn't run until 10am normally is a factor for me in not using it too much in general. If I want to ski ME, I usually want to be there first thing in the morning. So I just drive directly there so I can start skiing it around 8 or so.

To me the Slide Brook chair is a "nice to have", but nothing more than that. In an average year, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I take that chair mid-day to switch between mountains.


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## WinS (Feb 8, 2022)

djd66 said:


> personally,… I kind of question the staffing issue.  Are there not enough lift opps?


This issue is not lift ops. It is the number of lift mechanics. The past several years this has been  the most challenging position to fill. (Even pre-COVID0. Just about every ski area has been advertising for mechanics. Experienced people with mechanical and electrical skills are in short supply. Last summer Sugarbush lost a few long-term mechanics to places like Darn Tough Socks and IBM -40 hour week, no climbing towers to chip ice,  good pay, no weekends or overtime. So Sugarbush is down 5-6 mechanics to service 16 lifts plus two owned by GMVS. To check Slidebrook‘s 40 towers each morning takes someone nearly two hours. When you are down 5-6 it is very challenging to get Slidebrook going. I am also not sure but some of the summer line work may not have been completed because of the shortages and lightning strike. I know Sugarbush has continued to hire as the season has progressed, but it is not easy.  Personally, I ride SB on a nice warm day, but have no problem taking the bus most of the time for a ten minute ride. Did not use it last year before being vaccinated but have no problem this year.


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## djd66 (Feb 8, 2022)

WinS said:


> This issue is not lift ops. It is the number of lift mechanics. The past several years this has been  the most challenging position to fill. (Even pre-COVID0. Just about every ski area has been advertising for mechanics. Experienced people with mechanical and electrical skills are in short supply. Last summer Sugarbush lost a few long-term mechanics to places like Darn Tough Socks and IBM -40 hour week, no climbing towers to chip ice,  good pay, no weekends or overtime. So Sugarbush is down 5-6 mechanics to service 16 lifts plus two owned by GMVS. To check Slidebrook‘s 40 towers each morning takes someone nearly two hours. When you are down 5-6 it is very challenging to get Slidebrook going. I am also not sure but some of the summer line work may not have been completed because of the shortages and lightning strike. I know Sugarbush has continued to hire as the season has progressed, but it is not easy.  Personally, I ride SB on a nice warm day, but have no problem taking the bus most of the time for a ten minute ride. Did not use it last year before being vaccinated but have no problem this year.


Thanks for the response Win,... this makes sense and its understandable the SB made the decision to not open the lift.  Hopefully things will change going into next season and we will be closer to "normal"

BTW, the crew of lift ops you have this year from South America are AWESOME.  They are all super friendly and hard working - great group of kids!


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## cdskier (Feb 8, 2022)

A few quick photos from Sunday...I really loved the view first thing Sunday morning heading up HG!


View attachment DS7_3453c.jpg
View attachment DS7_3432c.jpg


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2022)

There is something to be said about having Slide Brook running because it makes Sugarbush one big resort.  That was LBO's intent.  I get the hassle and expense, but it is a big selling point.


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## teleo (Feb 8, 2022)

I like having SB as an option.  Definitely get to ME more with it running.  Either as a ski SB - bus to ME - SB chair back to LP or a GH a bit after 9 before it gets crowded, ski NL till 10 and take SB chair to get out of a crowded LP.

Heck preCovid I used to take it just to get a grilled cheese at walts on a warm, midweek day.

The bus can be a pain.

Guess I won't get to ME much this year☹


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 8, 2022)

So...whats the solution to hiring mechanics whi have to work in dangerouse freezing conditions?
Pay them what they are worth...thats...it.


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## foofy (Feb 8, 2022)

I get those who prefer the bus to SB.  For me though, the bus is only as a means back to the base from skiing SB.  If SB isn't running, I'll stay wherever I started.  I find the bus base-to-base way more hassle than the lift.


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## Newpylong (Feb 8, 2022)

Les put the lift in for a reason (besides to say he put in a 2 mile lift) and it ran every single day under ASC when coverage and weather requirements were met. The bus is a PITA.


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## Smellytele (Feb 8, 2022)

Hate the bus not a fan of sb either. Usually just take 1 boot off and drive myself the times I ski both.


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## foofy (Feb 8, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Usually just take 1 boot off and drive myself the times I ski both.


Easier to do when you don't drive a stick.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 8, 2022)

The reality is that ever since Glen Ellen became Sugarbush North, there were ambitions to connect the sides of the resort. In the summer of 1995 there were a total of six lift projects, 4 of them being new installs. Significant oversights were made in terms of evac access and permitting that makes it impossible to develop in the basin. From a skier's perspective you can get to all of the resort's terrain without ever taking your skis off and from a resort-wide perspective it helps disperse crowds across both sides. However, from a maintenance perspective it's a complete pain in the ass to do any line work in the basin (eg. sheave bearing replacements like Summit the other day). Assuming there's enough staff to run it, it's a real perk to be able to access all of the resort's terrain, especially with what a day ticket costs now.


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## djd66 (Feb 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...whats the solution to hiring mechanics whi have to work in dangerouse freezing conditions?
> Pay them what they are worth...thats...it.


What is the going rate for an experienced lift mechanic?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 9, 2022)

20 bucks an hour..
You can be a greeter in Walmart for 17.
But the real perspective is their is a shortage of mechanics,electricians,etc. They can get a much better job with benefits and work inside ,for more money. 
Why would they want to be a lift mechanic?
Why would anyone want to be a snow maker?
Things have to change.


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## djd66 (Feb 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 20 bucks an hour..
> You can be a greeter in Walmart for 17.
> But the real perspective is their is a shortage of mechanics,electricians,etc. They can get a much better job with benefits and work inside ,for more money.
> Why would they want to be a lift mechanic?
> ...


I agree, if that is the going rate - they need to pay more.  Hell, my 15 yo son makes 14.50 and hr as a part time grocery bagger.


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## tumbler (Feb 9, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> The reality is that ever since Glen Ellen became Sugarbush North, there were ambitions to connect the sides of the resort. In the summer of 1995 there were a total of six lift projects, 4 of them being new installs. *Significant oversights were made in terms of evac access and permitting that makes it impossible to develop in the basin.* From a skier's perspective you can get to all of the resort's terrain without ever taking your skis off and from a resort-wide perspective it helps disperse crowds across both sides. However, from a maintenance perspective it's a complete pain in the ass to do any line work in the basin (eg. sheave bearing replacements like Summit the other day). Assuming there's enough staff to run it, it's a real perk to be able to access all of the resort's terrain, especially with what a day ticket costs now.


Dude, I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.  It was never going to be developed because of the bear habitat, the lift is the only thing that was going in there.  Plus something of that scale does not get installed without significant approvals and permitting.  

I wish the plans that were drawn up for that area were done, it was awesome and would have made SB bigger than K.  Awesome for terrain but not awesome for how it would have changed the Valley imo.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Dude, I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.  It was never going to be developed because of the bear habitat, the lift is the only thing that was going in there.  Plus something of that scale does not get installed without significant approvals and permitting.
> 
> I wish the plans that were drawn up for that area were done, it was awesome and would have made SB bigger than K.  Awesome for terrain but not awesome for how it would have changed the Valley imo.


Also people forget that Les had to give up rights to develope other areas around the resort as a barganing chip to get that lift installed.  I think that sucks more.   I am sorry, I don't ride that lift, never have and never will.  I ski slidebrook, get on the bus for 5 minutes and I am at North.  Same going South at the end of the day.  No fuss no muss.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 9, 2022)

I'm heading up tomorrow to ski mount Ellen, anyone been lately? Wondering what conditions are like generally. haven't been there since 2019, cant wait. thanks!


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## Smellytele (Feb 9, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I'm heading up tomorrow to ski mount Ellen, anyone been lately? Wondering what conditions are like generally. haven't been there since 2019, cant wait. thanks!


Went Sunday and they were pretty good. Bravo was thin but everything else skied pretty good. Upper glades were scraped in spots.


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## djd66 (Feb 9, 2022)

I agree that taking slidebrook from South is a serious Schelp. After 3 chairs, it’s about 35-40 minutes before I’m skiing,… by that time on a cold day - I’m chilled. It would have been great if there were Gondola cars on the line,… yeah I know - will never happen.  What I do like about Slidebrook is coming back to South.  It’s a quick ride and I can get to 4 pods from there.  

Personally, I’m not a big bus person - especially with Covid.  If I’m going to North, I’ll just drive as I think it’s much quicker than the bus.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 20 bucks an hour..
> You can be a greeter in Walmart for 17.
> But the real perspective is their is a shortage of mechanics,electricians,etc. They can get a much better job with benefits and work inside ,for more money.
> Why would they want to be a lift mechanic?
> ...


Are you sure that's what the lift mechanics make?  My understanding is that it is considerably more.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Went Sunday and they were pretty good. Bravo was thin but everything else skied pretty good. Upper glades were scraped in spots.


Thanks, how were tumbler hammerhead and encore? Also did lower FIS have alot of bumps? thanks!


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Also people forget that Les had to give up rights to develope other areas around the resort as a barganing chip to get that lift installed.  I think that sucks more.   I am sorry, I don't ride that lift, never have and never will.  I ski slidebrook, get on the bus for 5 minutes and I am at North.  Same going South at the end of the day.  No fuss no muss.


I like slidebrook being sidecountry without vertical lifts.  IMHO, it was a blessing in disguise not being able to develop in there.  

Hawk-I'm going to your old haunt, SR for PD weekend.  first time ever for me.  anything I should know.


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I like slidebrook being sidecountry without vertical lifts.  IMHO, it was a blessing in disguise not being able to develop in there.


I tend to agree. It gives them a rather unique "feature" that most resorts can't offer.


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## Smellytele (Feb 9, 2022)

Actually just stuck to the top for the morning but did hit FIS on our last run over there and yes all bumps. (Run on sentence).


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## jaybird (Feb 9, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Dude, I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.  It was never going to be developed because of the bear habitat, the lift is the only thing that was going in there.  Plus something of that scale does not get installed without significant approvals and permitting.
> 
> I wish the plans that were drawn up for that area were done, it was awesome and would have made SB bigger than K.  Awesome for terrain but not awesome for how it would have changed the Valley imo.


Being Bigger than K was not likely ever part of anyone's plan. The Bigness of K is not all it's cracked up to be. Vertical beats horizontal any day .. in my book


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 9, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Dude, I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.  It was never going to be developed because of the bear habitat, the lift is the only thing that was going in there.  Plus something of that scale does not get installed without significant approvals and permitting.
> 
> I wish the plans that were drawn up for that area were done, it was awesome and would have made SB bigger than K.  Awesome for terrain but not awesome for how it would have changed the Valley imo.


When Otten put the lift in he signed a contract to never build in the basin. Now, even if the lift was never installed, the bear habitat would prevent the area from development and the lift would not likely be able to be built if it were now. As it is, I believe it can't run from May until November-ish because of the bears coming out of hibernation. Considering nothing else can happen now or likely could've happened then, I think it's good that the lift even exists at all.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 9, 2022)

FIS is quite bumped up now. This was it on Saturday.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Are you sure that's what the lift mechanics make?  My understanding is that it is considerably more.


How much?
If its a lot more..and they still cant get people..then it needs to be A LOT MORE..
Its a brutal job...i wouldnt do it for any money..


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> How much?
> If its a lot more..and they still cant get people..then it needs to be A LOT MORE..
> Its a brutal job...i wouldnt do it for any money..


I was under the impression it was a full time position with benefits at about 60-70k/year.  Maybe I'm nuts but that's what I thought.


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I was under the impression it was a full time position with benefits at about 60-70k/year.  Maybe I'm nuts but that's what I thought.


The listing on their open positions link on their website does indeed list it as a full-time year round position. It doesn't list the salary range, although there is a $1500 sign on bonus at the moment...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 9, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Thanks, how were tumbler hammerhead and encore? Also did lower FIS have alot of bumps? thanks!


Skied there yesterday (Tues) morning before work. Tumbler was pretty good, Hammerhead not so much in parts (the dusting of snow Monday night did a god job hiding all the rocks). Woods off of Tumbler looked pretty good but I didn't go in because I didn't want to risk taking my 9:30 call from a Ski Patrol sled.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I like slidebrook being sidecountry without vertical lifts.  IMHO, it was a blessing in disguise not being able to develop in there.
> 
> Hawk-I'm going to your old haunt, SR for PD weekend.  first time ever for me.  anything I should know.


Text me when you have a chance.  I can send you to a couple of places you may not find.


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## ducky (Feb 9, 2022)

Hmmm...


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## tumbler (Feb 9, 2022)

No Bueno.  Looks like the Subie's fault.


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2022)

I fail to understand how people can be this stupid and have absolutely no awareness of their surroundings.


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## Lotso (Feb 9, 2022)

need broader view...looks like multiple maroons


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 9, 2022)

70k with full bennies...would attract a lot of people


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

ducky said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> View attachment 53115


It's called a sense of entitlement.  And maybe I am looking at this wrong but it seems that multiple cars are blocking.  Specifically the Red Forester and the Gold Honda CRV.


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## ducky (Feb 9, 2022)

Def the red Subie. There was a neat double row going on, then that one just parked in a third row and the whole thing jogged over with maybe the three cars blocked in. I watched endless cars driving down the one way the wrong way.

Yesterday saw a guy parked 2-3 slots over from Win's spot. He got out of his car to rotate the handicapped parking sign away from his car. I said something to him about moving parking signs to suit his needs - not being handicapped or 80+, but kinda wish I hadn't as he got ugly about it. Mass plates, um, real nice guy. 

My wife says I should have hit him up for a Vermont Adaptive or High Fives donation if he was going to use their parking. Wish I'd just filmed it for the Jerry of the Day highlight reel.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Text me when you have a chance.  I can send you to a couple of places you may not find.


will do.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

ducky said:


> Def the red Subie. There was a neat double row going on, then that one just parked in a third row and the whole thing jogged over with maybe the three cars blocked in. I watched endless cars driving down the one way the wrong way.
> 
> Yesterday saw a guy parked 2-3 slots over from Win's spot. He got out of his car to rotate the handicapped parking sign away from his car. I said something to him about moving parking signs to suit his needs - not being handicapped or 80+, but kinda wish I hadn't as he got ugly about it. Mass plates, um, real nice guy.
> 
> My wife says I should have hit him up for a Vermont Adaptive or High Fives donation if he was going to use their parking. Wish I'd just filmed it for the Jerry of the Day highlight reel.


ha, my wife had an issue there some years ago.  She had broken her foot and was in one of those walking boots but the doctor said she could ski because the ski boot would act as the boot.  She got a handicapped pass from the doctors office and parked in the handicapped spot.  Some woman lit into her when she saw her grabbing her skis from the car.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 9, 2022)

Wonder what she would have done if she saw someone in a wheelchair..with skis..


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

ducky said:


> Yesterday saw a guy parked 2-3 slots over from Win's spot. He got out of his car to rotate the handicapped parking sign away from his car. I said something to him about moving parking signs to suit his needs - not being handicapped or 80+, but kinda wish I hadn't as he got ugly about it. Mass plates, um, real nice guy.
> 
> My wife says I should have hit him up for a Vermont Adaptive or High Fives donation if he was going to use their parking. Wish I'd just filmed it for the Jerry of the Day highlight reel.


That guy is the epitomy of douchiness.  And love the idea of asking for a donation.  Great idea!


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 9, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> View attachment 53114
> FIS is quite bumped up now. This was it on Saturday.


Thank you very much! As I recall that run is not very steep, relatively speaking. Low angle bumps are perfect for me now as I try to get better them.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Thank you very much! As I recall that run is not very steep, relatively speaking. Low angle bumps are perfect for me now as I try to get better them.


I've always found the bumps on upper looking good to be good to practice on.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 9, 2022)

Lower Domino, Moonshine, and Semi Tough are the best practice bumps in my book. The upper section of Lower FIS is relatively steep but you can always cut in on South Bound and bypass that section.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> ha, my wife had an issue there some years ago.  She had broken her foot and was in one of those walking boots but the doctor said she could ski because the ski boot would act as the boot.  She got a handicapped pass from the doctors office and parked in the handicapped spot.  Some woman lit into her when she saw her grabbing her skis from the car.


So what did B do Howie?  I bet she gave it right back to her.  LOL.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2022)

There is always morningstar also.  That is my favorite.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 9, 2022)

Just jump into castle rock...if you make it out..youll be a great bump skier...as youll have had lots of practice..


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## HowieT2 (Feb 9, 2022)

Hawk said:


> So what did B do Howie?  I bet she gave it right back to her.  LOL.


no doubt.  She's no shrinking violet.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 9, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Lower Domino, Moonshine, and Semi Tough are the best practice bumps in my book. The upper section of Lower FIS is relatively steep but you can always cut in on South Bound and bypass that section.


Thanks for the tip on lwr FIS.  we will be on semi tough and walts trail for sure!


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## WinS (Feb 9, 2022)

New subject. Today (day 78) was the first day of the second half of the ski season at Sugarbush and what a gorgeous day it was. This assumes that the mountain stays open every day through Sunday, April 24th and then reopens the following weekend as in past years. Sugarbush is normally a second half player. Remember all the snow in March and April when COVID shut us down two years ago?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 9, 2022)

WinS said:


> New subject. Today (day 78) was the first day of the second half of the ski season at Sugarbush and what a gorgeous day it was. This assumes that the mountain stays open every day through Sunday, April 24th and then reopens the following weekend as in past years. Sugarbush is normally a second half player. Remember all the snow in March and April when COVID shut us down two years ago?


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## MadPadraic (Feb 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Hate the bus not a fan of sb either. Usually just take 1 boot off and drive myself the times I ski both.


We have a manual transmission, so taking just one boot off isn't an option.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 9, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I agree that taking slidebrook from South is a serious Schelp. After 3 chairs, it’s about 35-40 minutes before I’m skiing,… by that time on a cold day - I’m chilled. It would have been great if there were Gondola cars on the line,… yeah I know - will never happen.  What I do like about Slidebrook is coming back to South.  It’s a quick ride and I can get to 4 pods from there.
> 
> Personally, I’m not a big bus person - especially with Covid.  If I’m going to North, I’ll just drive as I think it’s much quicker than the bus.



Pivoting this super hard away from the original intent, but I do with that the MRV had better bus service. It would really help us support local restaurants and breweries.


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## Smellytele (Feb 10, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> We have a manual transmission, so taking just one boot off isn't an option.


Only takes another  minute to take the other off


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## rocks860 (Feb 10, 2022)

ducky said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> View attachment 53115


Ha that Subaru is not my car but the subie in front of that truck with the top racks open is in fact mine


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 11, 2022)

Awesome day at mt ellen yesterday. the mountain got about 2-3 inches of snow Wednesday night and another 1-2 inches during the day Thursday. top half of the mountain was in the clouds, even the top half of Joes Cruiser, whichway, and all those trails that start there were socked in,  but you could see well enough to ski, and the fact that it was basically deserted helped. Nice soft coating of powder on top of really good snow all day long, just perfect. we skied 20 runs and 32 miles and stayed all day. The bumps we did were all nice and soft for the most part.

highlight: watching my kids (10 and 12) just rip. By the time they are in high school I'm sure they will be able to ski anything anywhere.

Lowlight: hiking/crawling through the woods from which way to what ever they call the trail under the northridge lift and back again to retrieve a helmet earpad that somehow fell off my son's helmet while we were on the lift.  I can report the snow in those trees is soft and 4 feet deep in spots. People have been skiing in there. The huge  moguls on that trail kept me from skiing down to get it and it was late in the day, my legs were too tired to do it safely.

I had no idea if it could be replaced but since we knew where it was hiking to get it seemed like a good idea at the time....in hindsight I would not recommend. But I now know my new ski pants and waterproof hoodie can withstand just about anything.

Sorry, no pics, we were just having too much fun skiing non stop to take any other than a couple pics of the kids for my wife but trust me, conditions were great. Not sure what this warm/cold cycle will do but man it was awesome yesterday.


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## foofy (Feb 11, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Sorry, no pics, we were just having too much fun skiing non stop


My problem as well, if you can call it a problem.  More, the way it should be!


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## shadyjay (Feb 11, 2022)

Anyone having this issue with the Sugarbush app.....

Mine refuses to update the "Weather and Snow Conditions" narrative.  The only way I can get it to update to the current narrative is to remove the app and reinstall it.


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## pinnoke (Feb 11, 2022)

I almost always need to shock it out of its coma by clicking on Events and then the back arrow, top left. The conditions are then refreshed (for me). 
And, quite the diverse conditions this season has seen!


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## Hawk (Feb 12, 2022)

Today was really good.  There were lines but they died by about 1:00.  Not sure where everybody went.  Skied right on to Castlerock at 12:30 and then Heavens gate at right after.  I was so sick of freezing my ass off and this weekend was what I needed.  Temps ranged from in the middle 30's up top to near 40 at the bottom I bet.  Spills and ripchord on the right stayed dry packed power.  Domino, Moonshine Lixi's and lower birdland got a litte more damp but still supper fun.  Castlerock must have been a little sun baked as it was more crispy but soft in most places.  Skied castlerock, Cotilion parts of liftline and Rumble.  Lots of rock on Rumble.  Pretty windy but nothing shut down.  Tomorrow back into the freezer.  Not sure what the refreeze will bring but we will see.  I see them gooming now.


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## djd66 (Feb 12, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Today was really good.  There were lines but they died by about 1:00.  Not sure where everybody went.  Skied right on to Castlerock at 12:30 and then Heavens gate at right after.  I was so sick of freezing my ass off and this weekend was what I needed.  Temps ranged from in the middle 30's up top to near 40 at the bottom I bet.  Spills and ripchord on the right stayed dry packed power.  Domino, Moonshine Lixi's and lower birdland got a litte more damp but still supper fun.  Castlerock must have been a little sun baked as it was more crispy but soft in most places.  Skied castlerock, Cotilion parts of liftline and Rumble.  Lots of rock on Rumble.  Pretty windy but nothing shut down.  Tomorrow back into the freezer.  Not sure what the refreeze will bring but we will see.  I see them gooming now.


Totally agree Hawk,… I have been freezing my ass off ALL SEASON,… today was exactly what I needed. Everything was totally carvable. No hand warmers, no heated socks and only 1 layer up top.   It was great to get on edge and have full confidence.  Tomorrow should be “interesting “ after things set up.


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## machski (Feb 12, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I agree that taking slidebrook from South is a serious Schelp. After 3 chairs, it’s about 35-40 minutes before I’m skiing,… by that time on a cold day - I’m chilled. It would have been great if there were Gondola cars on the line,… yeah I know - will never happen.  What I do like about Slidebrook is coming back to South.  It’s a quick ride and I can get to 4 pods from there.
> 
> Personally, I’m not a big bus person - especially with Covid.  If I’m going to North, I’ll just drive as I think it’s much quicker than the bus.


Les would have loved a Gondola on the current SB line.  That didn't happen because the towers have had to be higher for ground clearance.  It was built as it is to minimize it's visibility from the valley floor.  Yes, that was also a huge sticking point.

Final historical note.  LBO's initial interconnect plans included upgrading Castlerock to a HSQ, installing snowmaking on that pod and stringing a much shorter summit to summit connector chair.  Luckily, he was talked down from that.


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## cdskier (Feb 12, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Today was really good.  There were lines but they died by about 1:00.  Not sure where everybody went.  Skied right on to Castlerock at 12:30 and then Heavens gate at right after.  I was so sick of freezing my ass off and this weekend was what I needed.  Temps ranged from in the middle 30's up top to near 40 at the bottom I bet.  Spills and ripchord on the right stayed dry packed power.  Domino, Moonshine Lixi's and lower birdland got a litte more damp but still supper fun.  Castlerock must have been a little sun baked as it was more crispy but soft in most places.  Skied castlerock, Cotilion parts of liftline and Rumble.  Lots of rock on Rumble.  Pretty windy but nothing shut down.  Tomorrow back into the freezer.  Not sure what the refreeze will bring but we will see.  I see them gooming now.



Agreed. I was one of the people that disappeared by 1 though...my legs were shot by that point after skiing lots of soft bumps today combined with skiing a few hours after work yesterday. I didn't venture over to CR, but hit many of the others that you mentioned. Longest line I waited on was around 5 minutes or so. I was expecting much worse with Super Bravo being down to start the day.



machski said:


> Final historical note.  LBO's initial interconnect plans included upgrading Castlerock to a HSQ, installing snowmaking on that pod and stringing a much shorter summit to summit connector chair.  Luckily, he was talked down from that.


He was practically run out of town for that...there were bumper stickers saying "More rock, Less Otten" at the time of that proposal.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 12, 2022)

Does anyone know anything about Walt’s After Dark? Specifically, which trails you can ski down after you leave? I’d like to take my sister up there when she visits but I would need to take her down a green route, which would be Northstar.


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## Hawk (Feb 13, 2022)

I am sure you can ski Cruiser, Whichway or Northstar.  If she can't ski those then maybe not a good idea to be out at night?

So last night at around 9:30 I was looking out the window and there was about 20 people sking down Springfling in a big group with head lights.  Pretty cool looking.  Was that the Allyns Valentines Dinner group?  If so I did realize that event was that big for that much money.  At any rate it looked fun.


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## SkiTheEast (Feb 14, 2022)

Looks like app was just updated and I must say on the face it looks pretty impressive. Map now overlays which trails are groomed and the list of trails also includes icons to indicate grooming and snowmaking.  Haven't fully gone thru everything yet but definitely a step in the right direction, sounds like someone is listening...

Full description from the app store:
* Updated trail map to allow viewing for unauthenticated guests
* Added toggle overlay option for "open" and "groomed" trails on the trail map
* Added grooming status icon to trails on lift/trail detail screen
* Added text to help show that each Home screen element is tappable for details
* Updated snowfall numbers on Home to reflect recent snowfall rather than upcoming snowfall
* Updated weather detail page to shorten data caching time and show data that is more relevant to guests


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## cdskier (Feb 14, 2022)

The updated app is definitely a step in the right direction.


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## shadyjay (Feb 15, 2022)

MUCH BETTER as far as the map goes.... nice to be able to see what's been groomed.  Conditions page is still not updating for me.  As of this afternoon (2/15), I'm stuck on Monday's report.


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## WinS (Feb 17, 2022)

I had early morning  commitments on the other side of the mountain. When I left Shelburne at 9:30 am it was raining so I was thinking today would not be day 80. Crossing over the APP GAP the skies were clearing. No rain on the radar until later in the afternoon, so I headed to the mountain. What a great decision. It was spring skiing and the emptiest parking lot I have seen all season. Upper lifts were on windhold and Sugarbush wisely closed all natural trails to preserve them. You can already see losses on a number of trails after last evening rains and warm winds. The fun run of  the day was Stein’s - soft snow on all the whales and sides. Too bad most missed it because tomorrow will be awful. The groomers are going to be hard at work early tomorrow morning. If we can get 2-3” after the rain and fall in temps it will make a huge difference. Otherwise, it will be bullet proof until a second groom tomorrow night,


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## cdskier (Feb 17, 2022)

It has been quite depressing today seeing less and less snow around my condo every time I look out the window.

This could be one of those weekends where if I had to drive 5 hours to get up here, I'd seriously think twice about making the drive. Since I'm already up here though, I'll get out there for a few groomer laps first thing in the morning each day this weekend and then probably call it a day. I feel bad for the people that only come up on holiday weekends/weeks. This is certainly not going to be a good weekend/week to ski much other than whatever is groomed.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 17, 2022)

Will Sugarbush even try to make snow again? Or are they done making snow for the season?


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## Blurski (Feb 17, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Will Sugarbush even try to make snow again? Or are they done making snow for the season?


Ha, that is funny.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 17, 2022)

Guess i shoukd have gone...at least for steins...but it was raining and the wind was howling at my house...


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## ss20 (Feb 17, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Will Sugarbush even try to make snow again? Or are they done making snow for the season?



I don't think they'll have a choice.  Golf course cam gonna be green in the AM.


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## ThatGuy (Feb 17, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think they'll have a choice.  Golf course cam gonna be green in the AM.


Water won’t be an issue after tonight


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## ducky (Feb 18, 2022)




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## NYSnowflake (Feb 18, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think they'll have a choice.  Golf course cam gonna be green in the AM.


Magic is going to try. C’mon Sugarbush! Make snow!


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## cdskier (Feb 18, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Magic is going to try. C’mon Sugarbush! Make snow!



Historically speaking, Sugarbush is not one of the resorts that plays the "resurfacing via snowmaking" game after a thaw/freeze event. They rely on grooming to fix the surfaces. Their snowmaking strategy is to make the amount of snow they need on each trail to get through the season in 1 main shot (with the exception of going back to add depth to the spring trails once primary snowmaking is completed on all other trails).

I'm not going to say they've never made snow this late to resurface some key areas...just it is very unlikely and not their SOP so don't get your hopes up.


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## Los (Feb 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Historically speaking, Sugarbush is not one of the resorts that plays the "resurfacing via snowmaking" game after a thaw/freeze event. They rely on grooming to fix the surfaces. Their snowmaking strategy is to make the amount of snow they need on each trail to get through the season in 1 main shot (with the exception of going back to add depth to the spring trails once primary snowmaking is completed on all other trails).
> 
> I'm not going to say they've never made snow this late to resurface some key areas...just it is very unlikely and not their SOP so don't get your hopes up.


Agreed, but still wish they would - I presume the ponds are filled to the brim…


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## tumbler (Feb 19, 2022)

Whaleback was making snow last night…


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## Newpylong (Feb 19, 2022)

They had to or they couldn't reopen. They only dusted under the lift at the top in early Jan.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2022)

Policy or not it is foolish not to at least resurface one or two trials for vacation week.  People have shelled out thousands to stay for the week.  I will never agree with this policy they have.  I skied yesterday and it was not pretty.  Just a couple more days for snowmaking on Spring fling, snowball, downspout and organgrinder maybe slowpoke for the beginners would make a world of difference.

I can't wait for the rosey colored outlook saying that the groomers are doing a great job and the little bit of snow mixed in is making a huge difference.  Wait and watch for it.  LOL


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> They had to or they couldn't reopen. They only dusted under the lift at the top in early Jan.


Those poor guys.  weather this year and didn't the lift break down also.  I feel bad.  That is a cool little mountain.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Policy or not it is foolish not to at least resurface one or two trials for vacation week.  People have shelled out thousands to stay for the week.  I will never agree with this policy they have.  I skied yesterday and it was not pretty.  Just a couple more days for snowmaking on Spring fling, snowball, downspout and organgrinder maybe slowpoke for the beginners would make a world of difference.
> 
> I can't wait for the rosey colored outlook saying that the groomers are doing a great job and the little bit of snow mixed in is making a huge difference.  Wait and watch for it.  LOL


I blew off driving to sunday river.  Didnt want to go ice skating.


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Policy or not it is foolish not to at least resurface one or two trials for vacation week.  People have shelled out thousands to stay for the week.  I will never agree with this policy they have.  I skied yesterday and it was not pretty.  Just a couple more days for snowmaking on Spring fling, snowball, downspout and organgrinder maybe slowpoke for the beginners would make a world of difference.
> 
> I can't wait for the rosey colored outlook saying that the groomers are doing a great job and the little bit of snow mixed in is making a huge difference.  Wait and watch for it.  LOL


I agree with you. At least running a few guns on several different trails in key spots would make a huge difference. I skipped skiing yesterday after work as I figured it would be terrible. Today was ok the first few runs, but getting very scraped off with lots of ice being exposed after that. Just grabbed a sandwich at Mutha Stuffers and will be relaxing in my condo the rest of the day lol.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 19, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I agree with you. At least running a few guns on several different trails in key spots would make a huge difference. I skipped skiing yesterday after work as I figured it would be terrible. Today was ok the first few runs, but getting very scraped off with lots of ice being exposed after that. Just grabbed a sandwich at Mutha Stuffers and will be relaxing in my condo the rest of the day lol.


I miss Peak Resorts. They used to work absolute miracles resurfacing Mt. Snow after a thaw event.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2022)

So I basically skied Birdland to lower organgrinder 10 x.  a couple or snowball - Springflings and a couple of domino chutes to organgriners and I was done.  Definately not a top 10 day but I got out.  Margaritas and nachos now on the docket. 

This is the way!


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 19, 2022)

Hit it!


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> So I basically skied Birdland to lower organgrinder 10 x.  a couple or snowball - Springflings and a couple of domino chutes to organgriners and I was done.  Definately not a top 10 day but I got out.  Margaritas and nachos now on the docket.
> 
> This is the way!



Birdland 10x? I couldn't convince myself it would be worth it to even ski it 1x today. I basically hit all the groomed runs off SB/VH a bunch of times and that was it.

Now I'm trying to decide whether I want to walk over to take photos of the fireworks or not tonight.


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## Hawk (Feb 19, 2022)

Perfect timing tonight.  Just as the torchlight started a huge squall rolled in and obsured everything.  Not very good for pictures. Soon as the fire works were over the skies cleared.  The mountain can't buy a break this weekend.  Oh well.


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## cdskier (Feb 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Perfect timing tonight.  Just as the torchlight started a huge squall rolled in and obsured everything.  Not very good for pictures. Soon as the fire works were over the skies cleared.  The mountain can't buy a break this weekend.  Oh well.


HAHA. That timing was uncanny. I did end up walking all the way down to the road by the parking lot and grabbed a bunch of photos. Definitely some of the most unique fireworks photos I've ever taken.


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## tumbler (Feb 20, 2022)

I’ve been wondering why Birdland is no longer groomed, it’s one of my favorites to start the day on.


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## pinnoke (Feb 20, 2022)

My guess is that they didn't get to make as much snow on it as they would've liked, due to the pipe repair that needed to be completed, first?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 20, 2022)

They groomed upper birdland?
Kind of rocky in there..
Murphys is more of a morning run


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> My guess is that they didn't get to make as much snow on it as they would've liked, due to the pipe repair that needed to be completed, first?


My guess as well was because they didn't make as much snow...although I thought Birdland had less snow made due to running out of water before they could finish it.



Kingslug20 said:


> They groomed upper birdland?
> Kind of rocky in there..
> Murphys is more of a morning run


You're thinking of lower birdland. Upper Birdland most years is regularly groomed. Mid-week they'll sometimes alternate between grooming Birdland and Murphys and then on the weekends groom both typically. This year I think Upper Birdland has only been groomed once or twice (I know it was done at least once to spread the snowmaking piles out...but can't remember if it was groomed again after that).


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## SkiTheEast (Feb 20, 2022)

Ouch, more mechanical issues on Bravo? - seem to be piling up this season...,tough start to the holiday week.  And not doing a Sugarbush vs K thing but since people mentioned snowmaking after the recent r*** I see on the 'gram that they have 125 guns going right now...


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## WinS (Feb 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I agree with you. At least running a few guns on several different trails in key spots would make a huge difference. I skipped skiing yesterday after work as I figured it would be terrible. Today was ok the first few runs, but getting very scraped off with lots of ice being exposed after that. Just grabbed a sandwich at Mutha Stuffers and will be relaxing in my condo the rest of the day lol.


I have not spoken to anyone about the snowmaking plan, but this is how I believe it will be thought about to decide. First, is the cost. GMP read the meter in the first few days of the month after snowmaking ceased. By turning on now there is a significant demand charge for the month. This  year snowmaking expense has risen significantly, and I am quite sure the electricity cost is way over budget. Under the tariff agreement GMP can curtail in a couple of ways. One they can mandate a total or partial shutdown or they can allow snowmaking to continue if Sugarbush buys through in the spot market. They did that once to us a few years ago and have done this on multiple days this winter. Say the tariff is 13 cents a KWH, buying through this winter has been as high as 29c a KWH. I am sure the Sugarbush team is very frustrated with this. The second decisiom is getting the staffing. The snowmakers who stay around are working lifts now. Also control room personnel have to be brought back. A few years ago we turned snowmaking back on later than this. I believe Shady was here and one of the 4 or so we pulled fro lifts for a couple of days of snowmaking. If I were betting I would out it at 50/50 with the focus on some of the spring trails where it is not as deep as past years and where there are towers.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 20, 2022)

Between the temperatures, energy costs, labor issues, and lack of water, making snow at Sugarbush sounds like trying to sail between Scylla and Charybdis.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Ouch, more mechanical issues on Bravo? - seem to be piling up this season...,tough start to the holiday week.



I was at ME this morning so missed out on the Bravo issues, but looking back at the webcam looks like it was down from pretty early on this morning and even as of 4pm they still appeared to be working on it. Hope it is back up for tomorrow.


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## Smellytele (Feb 20, 2022)

Just wondering do other major VT ski areas have the issues with GMP or does sugarbush just have some crazy weird deal with them?


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 20, 2022)

Anyone know what the problem is with Summit Lift at Mt. Ellen and if it will be back up and running again soon?


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> Anyone know what the problem is with Summit Lift at Mt. Ellen and if it will be back up and running again soon?



It was loading as of a little after 1PM this afternoon and ran the rest of the day as far as I know.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> It was loading as of a little after 1PM this afternoon and ran the rest of the day as far as I know.


Thanks! It must have started right after I left.


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## jdr14 (Feb 20, 2022)

I got caught on Super Bravo yesterday for 20+ mins and again this morning for about the same. Feels like Bravo has been having issues all season. But this was a particularly bad weekend. Anyone know what the deal is? Time for a new lift? Or short handed lift maintenance team?


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## SkiTheEast (Feb 20, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> I got caught on Super Bravo yesterday for 20+ mins and again this morning for about the same. Feels like Bravo has been having issues all season. But this was a particularly bad weekend. Anyone know what the deal is? Time for a new lift? Or short handed lift maintenance team?


I know it was a sheave issue a few weeks ago. Don't know what the specific issue yday and today was but overall probably a little of each - suspect the shortage (and maybe overall experience) of lift mechanics and the fact its been the workhorse of the mountain for almost 30 years (and wear and tear that comes with that).

Mentioned this earlier but if they are thinking of replacing any of the lifts I'd hope the appropriate planning is being done now.  I posted an article a while back about the backlog at Poma and Doppelmayr for years to come given supply chain issues (and Vail buying all the lifts).


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> I know it was a sheave issue a few weeks ago. Don't know what the specific issue yday and today was but overall probably a little of each - suspect the shortage (and maybe overall experience) of lift mechanics and the fact its been the workhorse of the mountain for almost 30 years (and wear and tear that comes with that).



I'm not sure when the snow report was actually updated with this info (I swear it wasn't there at the end of the ski day), but here's the info on what happened with Bravo today per the snow report:

"Today an electrical component for Super Bravo's drive went down. We were luckily able to pull that component from Slide Brook, which will allow us to run Bravo tomorrow, pending any winds affecting operations."


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## Hawk (Feb 21, 2022)

A lot of unhappy people yesterday. Due to the lift lines I rode single most of the day and heard it on the lift pretty much every ride.  Lift issues, Ice, lack of snowmaking, lines.  People were not happy that I rode with.  Whatever.  I sounded like people were not used to this kind of thing.
You have to look at the bright side.  Maybe numbers will go down and we can have the place back.  Just a thought.


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## hovercraft (Feb 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> A lot of unhappy people yesterday. Due to the lift lines I rode single most of the day and heard it on the lift pretty much every ride.  Lift issues, Ice, lack of snowmaking, lines.  People were not happy that I rode with.  Whatever.  I sounded like people were not used to this kind of thing.
> You have to look at the bright side.  Maybe numbers will go down and we can have the place back.  Just a thought.


Welcome to the era of the cheap season pass.  Not sure how or when it gets better.


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## 1dog (Feb 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Just wondering do other major VT ski areas have the issues with GMP or does sugarbush just have some crazy weird deal with them?











						America’s Power Grid Is Increasingly Unreliable
					

Behind a rising number of outages are new stresses on the system caused by aging power lines, a changing climate and a power-plant fleet rapidly going green




					www.wsj.com


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## machski (Feb 21, 2022)

1dog said:


> America’s Power Grid Is Increasingly Unreliable
> 
> 
> Behind a rising number of outages are new stresses on the system caused by aging power lines, a changing climate and a power-plant fleet rapidly going green
> ...


Except VT already toots itself as a totally green grid.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Welcome to the era of the cheap season pass.  Not sure how or when it gets better.


Have the skier visits gone up appreciably?


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Have the skier visits gone up appreciably?


Can't speak to overall skier visits, but honestly for a holiday weekend I thought it was kind of uncrowded. The lots at ME still had several empty rows when I left there yesterday. And when I drove past Lincoln Peak on my way back to my condo it looked like cars were only just starting to park in lot F yesterday. All weekend I never waited in more than a 5 minute line (and most time it was well under that...although I guess I also lucked out a bit picking ME yesterday instead of LP with Bravo being down most of the day).

To Hawk's point, I do feel bad for people that pay for one big ski vacation a year and ended up being here. Regulars know what to expect at SB after a thaw/freeze. Other people I'm sure expect what you see at many other resorts with all the snow-making and resurfacing photos that are popping up non-stop in my social media feeds. This may sound odd, but like Hawk, I also wouldn't be too upset if things like this cause numbers go down a bit. 

On the bright side today, the first few runs at 9AM on North Lynx on Sunrise and Birch were fantastic. I had second chair up NL behind Win. Best runs of the day. Everything else off HG, SB, VH was not great at all. The wind really scoured a lot of the work the groomers put in on the trails on that side.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 21, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Can't speak to overall skier visits, but honestly for a holiday weekend I thought it was kind of uncrowded. The lots at ME still had several empty rows when I left there yesterday. And when I drove past Lincoln Peak on my way back to my condo it looked like cars were only just starting to park in lot F yesterday. All weekend I never waited in more than a 5 minute line (and most time it was well under that...although I guess I also lucked out a bit picking ME yesterday instead of LP with Bravo being down most of the day).
> 
> To Hawk's point, I do feel bad for people that pay for one big ski vacation a year and ended up being here. Regulars know what to expect at SB after a thaw/freeze. Other people I'm sure expect what you see at many other resorts with all the snow-making and resurfacing photos that are popping up non-stop in my social media feeds. This may sound odd, but like Hawk, I also wouldn't be too upset if things like this cause numbers go down a bit.
> 
> On the bright side today, the first few runs at 9AM on North Lynx on Sunrise and Birch were fantastic. I had second chair up NL behind Win. Best runs of the day. Everything else off HG, SB, VH was not great at all. The wind really scoured a lot of the work the groomers put in on the trails on that side.


rain followed by a hard freeze is always going to result in unhappy skiers especially on a holiday week whether its at sugarbush or anyplace else.  I'm pretty unhappy sitting at home after bailing on the weekend.  That being said, could be worse, could be this guy. https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...fers-frozen-penis-mass-start-race-2022-02-20/


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## WinS (Feb 21, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> I got caught on Super Bravo yesterday for 20+ mins and again this morning for about the same. Feels like Bravo has been having issues all season. But this was a particularly bad weekend. Anyone know what the deal is? Time for a new lift? Or short handed lift maintenance team?


There are multiple things that can cause a mechanical or electrical problem.  Certainly, being short staffed can impact servicing and repairing, but I do not think that has been the issue. As far as I can tell in speaking with the Sugarbush team the lift problems are unrelated. For example, a week or so ago, Bravo was experiencing Rowe faults of tower 12. Something like that can be challenging to diagnose. A Doylemayr electrician came here for a few days and it took him some time to figure it out. He also worked on the spacing issue they were having with Gatehouse. The Bravo problem was she the E-Brake (emergency break would not release. They finally found that insufficient voltage was getting the the connector which release the brake and that the connector was the issue. The connector from Slidebrook  was brought over and put into Brsvo. A $5 part caused the breakdown. As far as replacing lifts, with the exception of Summit and Inverness and the new lifts like Sunny-Q,  Village and Valley House, the other lifts have have new had drives put in during the back decades along with new communication lines, new tower wiring and in the case of Bravo a new gear box. Doing this type of maintenance can allow lifts to function well for decades. Other than towers and chairs, the lifts can essentially be new.

The weather volatility this winter has also be tough on the lifts. Temperature extremes, icing, and wind cause problems.


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## shadyjay (Feb 21, 2022)

WinS said:


> The second decisiom is getting the staffing. The snowmakers who stay around are working lifts now. Also control room personnel have to be brought back. A few years ago we turned snowmaking back on later than this. I believe Shady was here and one of the 4 or so we pulled fro lifts for a couple of days of snowmaking. If I were betting I would out it at 50/50 with the focus on some of the spring trails where it is not as deep as past years and where there are towers.



Yeah I remember that.  I remember setting it up and then working day crew for like a day or two.  It was weird making snow in the daytime, actually being able to see where the snow was going, and able to get something to eat in the cafe.  

I'm still holding out for a good March this year.... preferably the second week of March ;-)


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## hovercraft (Feb 21, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Have the skier visits gone up appreciably?


I don’t have hard data but from experience it sure feels like it.


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## Newpylong (Feb 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Just wondering do other major VT ski areas have the issues with GMP or does sugarbush just have some crazy weird deal with them?



Yes they do, Killington has had considerable shutdowns (and purchased through curtailment) several times this year.

I can't speak to GMP but our Demand charges worked differently with the NH utilities. We could operate on two commercial "long load" rate types: Regular Demand and Optional Determination of Demand. The first one took your highest percentile (utilization) over the past year and the second one used your highest percentile over the past month (but then also wacked you with a 20% rate increase). So what we would do is be in normal Demand billing during snowmaking season because we knew we would be at peak utilization anyway. Then it didn't cost us more in Demand just to turn the snowmaking on for 15 minutes month to month.

In the off-season we switched to Optional Determination so we weren't hit with Demand charges for the prior months where the high HP equipment was on but now isn't.

Commercial high voltage electric billing is a royal PITA to figure out sometimes.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 21, 2022)

Thus..why paying lift mechanics enough money..is crucial.


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 22, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> I got caught on Super Bravo yesterday for 20+ mins and again this morning for about the same. Feels like Bravo has been having issues all season. But this was a particularly bad weekend. Anyone know what the deal is? Time for a new lift? Or short handed lift maintenance team?


Last I heard it’s because due to the shortage of maintenance staff this summer, lifts did not receive all of their routine maintenance. Not sure, but that’s what I heard.


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## witchway (Feb 22, 2022)

True or not, the common perception is that Alterra is skimping on some or all of, snowmaking, grooming, maintenance and staffing. If this is true then Alterra needs to change the way it is operating.  If this isn't the case than they had better start creating an new narrative on the mountain.  I have never heard as much grumbling and seen as many angry customers as I saw this weekend.  Additionally, while this probably doesn't affect many of the people on this board, for a Presidents weekend presumably with newbies and children, the condition of easy rider was an embarrassment.


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## tumbler (Feb 22, 2022)

What was the issue with Easy Rider?


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 22, 2022)

tumbler said:


> What was the issue with Easy Rider?


It was a windswept skating rink all under the lift up to the center of the trail. There were icy spots on both the loading and unloading areas of the lift and icy patches on skiers right where there was some snow. They badly needed to make snow in the beginner area.


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## hovercraft (Feb 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Thus..why paying lift mechanics enough money..is crucial.


SB or Stowe, Name changes, faces change but still problems.  Pick your poison


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Welcome to the era of the cheap season pass.  Not sure how or when it gets better.


Sugarbush is nothing like the Sh*T Show going on at Stowe with Epic.  The lines had nothing to do with the IKON pass.  It was because the workhorse lift Bravo went down at Prime time on Sunday forcing everyone to Valley House and Gate House.  Also no Castlerock and the woods are not in play so people are all coming back down to the bottom.  Actually the lines have not been that bad all season when all the lifts were working and everything was open.  I was more depressed with the lack of snowmaking.


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## Hawk (Feb 22, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> rain followed by a hard freeze is always going to result in unhappy skiers especially on a holiday week whether its at sugarbush or anyplace else.  I'm pretty unhappy sitting at home after bailing on the weekend.  That being said, could be worse, could be this guy. https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...fers-frozen-penis-mass-start-race-2022-02-20/


If you had gone to Sunday River you would have witnessed really good snowmating on a bunch of trails on Saturday, Sunday and more on Monday.  You should have gone.  It would have given you a better persective on what is actually possible with the right equipement and the right people.  My friends over there are saying that Mississippi is doing a fine job.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 22, 2022)

Hawk said:


> If you had gone to Sunday River you would have witnessed really good snowmating on a bunch of trails on Saturday, Sunday and more on Monday.  You should have gone.  It would have given you a better persective on what is actually possible with the right equipement and the right people.  My friends over there are saying that Mississippi is doing a fine job.


you're probably right but in my defense it's a long drive (6+ hours) from me and the friend who was supposed to go up with me had previously bailed.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 22, 2022)

I went to Ellen on Sunday. Generally it was fun, but I don't understand why every trail with any pitch has to be a mogul trail.  After a thaw/freeze they should really pick something steep to groom.


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## NYSnowflake (Feb 22, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> I went to Ellen on Sunday. Generally it was fun, but I don't understand why every trail with any pitch has to be a mogul trail.  After a thaw/freeze they should really pick something steep to groom.


I totally agree but I don’t think there’s enough snow to groom it. I hear they are having a lot of barriers to snow making any more this season. The more I learn about Sugarbush the more it’s sounding like MRG… Reliant on natural snow due to lack of water (and other factors) and therefore can’t groom very much as a result.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> I went to Ellen on Sunday. Generally it was fun, but I don't understand why every trail with any pitch has to be a mogul trail.  After a thaw/freeze they should really pick something steep to groom.



The only steeper trail at ME that typically is groomed would be Cliffs. The vast majority of other steeper trails at ME are primarily natural snow trails and never groomed (and honestly I can't say I'd want any of the others groomed).

I did think it was a bit odd that Cliffs wasn't groomed (especially for a holiday weekend). I don't really know what the reason was for not grooming that.



NYSnowflake said:


> I totally agree but I don’t think there’s enough snow to groom it. I hear they are having a lot of barriers to snow making any more this season. The more I learn about Sugarbush the more it’s sounding like MRG… Reliant on natural snow due to lack of water (and other factors) and therefore can’t groom very much as a result.



Sugarbush is currently grooming over 50% of their open terrain on a daily basis. The "best" trails (IMO) are definitely reliant on natural snow...but even with abundant snow those trails are not groomed for the most part. And if you did start grooming them, you'd have a mutiny from the long-time SB skiers and riders. Grooming a larger percentage of terrain would make SB just like many other resorts out there. The rather significant amount of ungroomed terrain is one of the things that makes SB unique and what so many of the long-time loyalists love about it.


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## hovercraft (Feb 22, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Sugarbush is nothing like the Sh*T Show going on at Stowe with Epic.  The lines had nothing to do with the IKON pass.  It was because the workhorse lift Bravo went down at Prime time on Sunday forcing everyone to Valley House and Gate House.  Also no Castlerock and the woods are not in play so people are all coming back down to the bottom.  Actually the lines have not been that bad all season when all the lifts were working and everything was open.  I was more depressed with the lack of snowmaking.


The lines at Stowe have not been bad at all.  I have never waited more the 10 or 12 minutes this year at its peak.  On the other hand ikon and epic are the demise of the skiing and riding we once knew.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The only steeper trail at ME that typically is groomed would be Cliffs. The vast majority of other steeper trails at ME are primarily natural snow trails and never groomed (and honestly I can't say I'd want any of the others groomed).
> 
> I did think it was a bit odd that Cliffs wasn't groomed (especially for a holiday weekend). I don't really know what the reason was for not grooming that.
> 
> ...


I'm new to riding Ellen this year, but we've been going to SB off an on for years. I don't recall past years ever seeing this much terrain with frozen bumps. I'd submit that there is a lot of distance between selectively grooming a few trails after really bad weather events and the dystopia that you are envisioning.  No one was on FIS or Exterminator, Encore, or Cliffs; surely one of these could have been revived.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> I'm new to riding Ellen this year, but we've been going to SB off an on for years. I don't recall past years ever seeing this much terrain with frozen bumps. I'd submit that there is a lot of distance between selectively grooming a few trails after really bad weather events and the dystopia that you are envisioning.  No one was on FIS or Exterminator, Encore, or Cliffs; surely one of these could have been revived.



I already said I was surprised Cliffs wasn't groomed. That one should have been. I also personally saw people on Exterminator, Encore, and Cliffs on Sunday at ME (and I was one of the ones on Exterminator). I didn't see anyone on FIS...but Summit didn't start loading until after I left, so it would have been difficult for someone to ski FIS without Summit running.

As for grooming FIS, Exterminator, or Encore...you're joking right? All 3 of these are essentially natural snow trails. There's no way you could groom any of those right now even if you wanted to with the limited amount of snow and numerous rocks/boulders on those trails. Encore I don't think has ever been groomed that I can recall.


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## shadyjay (Feb 22, 2022)

Did any snow get made on Cliffs this year?   That's probably why it hasn't been groomed regularly.  Same thing with Brambles... that was a GMVS training area along with Inverness that used to be a snowmaking priority. 

I used to think that more trails should have snowmaking... then I experienced them in prime conditions and realized that snowmaking would ruin the character of them.  Trails at ME like Tumblr and Hammerhead would be a lot different and would lose a lot of their character.  (Actually on old trail maps in the early 90s, Hammerhead was listed as having snowmaking... most likely hoses stretched through from Cliffs.  At LP, upper OG used to be the regular groomer... now its Ripcord.  I'm surprised OG hasn't gotten a groomer pass as of late.  Looks like Sunrise is in the rotation, most likely for the holiday week.

I was fortunate to get a groomed Mall a few years back, the last year of the Valley House double.  That was something else!  I've also gotten groomed runs up on the Rock before, and Domino as well.  Was it cool?  Yeah, but something that requires a lot of snow to do and was typically done before a big snow event to reset the bumps.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Did any snow get made on Cliffs this year?   That's probably why it hasn't been groomed regularly.  Same thing with Brambles... that was a GMVS training area along with Inverness that used to be a snowmaking priority.



Yes, snow was made on Cliffs this year (I believe Brambles as well...although I haven't been on it as it has always been closed for racing whenever I've been at ME).


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## MadPadraic (Feb 22, 2022)

I had two laps on Sunrise Monday before work--it was rather awesome.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 22, 2022)

Hawk said:


> If you had gone to Sunday River you would have witnessed really good snowmating on a bunch of trails on Saturday, Sunday and more on Monday.  You should have gone.  It would have given you a better persective on what is actually possible with the right equipement and the right people.  My friends over there are saying that Mississippi is doing a fine job.


Mississippi Dave?


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> I was fortunate to get a groomed Mall a few years back, the last year of the Valley House double.  That was something else!  I've also gotten groomed runs up on the Rock before, and Domino as well.  Was it cool?  Yeah, but something that requires a lot of snow to do and was typically done before a big snow event to reset the bumps.



I missed this comment the first time I saw your post. I remember that time The Mall was groomed quite well and was actually just thinking about it the other day for some reason. Very weird skiing that trail with it being groomed. Completely different trail! Hard to believe that was actually 7 years ago at this point!



MadPadraic said:


> I had two laps on Sunrise Monday before work--it was rather awesome.



Agreed...Sunrise and Birch were two of the few trails that were worth skiing several times Monday morning.


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## jdr14 (Feb 23, 2022)

witchway said:


> True or not, the common perception is that Alterra is skimping on some or all of, snowmaking, grooming, maintenance and staffing. If this is true then Alterra needs to change the way it is operating. If this isn't the case than they had better start creating an new narrative on the mountain. I have never heard as much grumbling and seen as many angry customers as I saw this weekend.


This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
-snowmaking not as good as in the past
-lift maintenance worse than in the past
-snow makers defecting for Stowe
-lift operators seem inexperienced or inattentive (more so than in the past)
-poor handling of John Egan and the crew of mountaineering folks that left because of it
-the unbelievably bad App. (Yes, I know it’s improving, but still not even as good as the old App!)
-no Slidebrook lift all year
-removal of valley house cafeteria without a viable alternative for blazers other than to add to the already overcrowded gate house cafeteria
-The poor initial communication about shutting down all uphill skinning (yes they corrected it, but the tone of the initial message really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way)
-etc.

I know they are trying their best, and have been dealt a very tough hand with the pandemic, but people keep bringing up all these things that have changed for the worse, and the narrative is that this is what to expect from Alterra. It would be nice if there were some big positives to point to (now or in the works) that would turn around the narrative. Like plans for more snowmaking, or newer lifts or new lodges. These are all things that were talked about at one point or another as potential improvements Alterra would make. But at this point, it seems like we’re getting a lot of rationale for why those things are too expensive or don’t make sense. And that’s not a very compelling narrative to people who have loved skiing here for years and want to see things at least stay as good as they were if not get better.

I’m not saying this to criticize. I love Sugarbush. I want nothing more than to see Alterra do well. But it’s getting harder and harder to defend every day…


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
> -snowmaking not as good as in the past
> -lift maintenance worse than in the past
> -snow makers defecting for Stowe
> ...


Spot on.  You can love SB and still criticize.  They both can be true at the same time.  It’s the new reality when you have big corporations buy up mountains while selling cheap passes.  The price of admission, a degraded “on mountain experience”.  Ikon or Epic doesn’t matter, just different problems.


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## NYDB (Feb 23, 2022)

I’m surprised Alterra would be cheaping out at the bush.  it’s the eastern flagship, no?


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 23, 2022)

I haveboth passes..live equal distance from SB and Stowe. I have only been to SB 4 times so far. I like it but found Stowe to be over all better. But ill keep going to SB as its a different experience..and i hope willbe able to overcome their problems.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> I’m surprised Alterra would be cheaping out at the bush.  it’s the eastern flagship, no?



I don't agree that they actually ARE cheaping out. I'm not seeing differences in noticeable areas that matter if you look closely at the details (which many people seem to ignore to suit their own narrative). I'd bet if SB shared the snow-making numbers, they'd have pumped comparable amounts of water to other years. There just have been a lot of times this year they had to re-do things early on due to the warm December weather. So people see less snow on the trails and think they made less when in reality they didn't (Mother Nature just melted more of it). The comment about SB snow-making not being as good as in the past is strange to me too. SB has never been a snow-making powerhouse. They just don't have the pumping capacity (or water storage capacity). This has been an ongoing issue for years and has nothing to do with Alterra. Are these comment comments coming from people that actually regularly skied SB? Or are they coming from new people that Ikon is bringing in that just don't have much historical experience with SB to accurately make these comparisons? I suppose you could argue that in a bad snow/weather year, they should make much MORE snow than usual and if they don't you could argue that is "cheaping" out.

In terms of lift issues...people see a lot of issues and just think it is due to maintenance. However once you talk to people that actually know what the issues were, they don't sound at all like things that any amount of maintenance would have prevented (case in point would be the $5 electrical component that randomly broke in Bravo this weekend...or the chair spacing issues they were having on Gate House a couple weeks ago that required Dopplemayer to come out and help trouble-shoot).

Snow-makers leaving for Stowe? This one that seems odd when in various threads this season it was talked about by some people how short-staffed Stowe's snow-making dept was while SB started with a crew of around 50 this year. Maybe a couple people left for Stowe for some reason, but still the first I've heard of this particular issue/concern.

Inattentive lift attendants? That's the first time I heard of that one as well and I haven't noticed any issues/differences at all in this area. In fact I've seen numerous comments in this thread alone at how great and friendly some of the lift attendants are this year (although I also thought those comments were strange as I didn't see anything vastly different this year compared to others as I always thought SB had pretty friendly and personable people working the lifts)


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## HowieT2 (Feb 23, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Spot on.  You can love SB and still criticize.  They both can be true at the same time.  It’s the new reality when you have big corporations buy up mountains while selling cheap passes.  The price of admission, a degraded “on mountain experience”.  Ikon or Epic doesn’t matter, just different problems.


Its funny, people complain about high prices/taxes in general and the high cost of lift tickets, but then also complain about cheap season passes.

I'd like anyone to post actual numbers for skier visits at SB.  From my perspective, it doesnt appear to me that SB is demonstrably more crowded than in the past.

Also, the work done on the base at mellon is a huge improvement.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 23, 2022)

I think this is the season of complaints..a lot legit...a lot bs...


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Its funny, people complain about high prices/taxes in general and the high cost of lift tickets, but then also complain about cheap season passes.
> 
> I'd like anyone to post actual numbers for skier visits at SB.  From my perspective, it doesnt appear to me that SB is demonstrably more crowded than in the past.
> 
> Also, the work done on the base at mellon is a huge improvement.


I think it is very difficult to tell for sure without actual data. And what time-frame are people using for comparison? Anecdotally, I feel like SB saw an increase in skier visits when they started offering those cheap quad packs. But I don't feel like this year is more crowded than some of those cheap quad pack years. Some days may feel more crowded, but then other days feel less crowded. I do however feel like there are more people at the mountain earlier in the day than in the past. (I have no real data to back this up though lol)


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 23, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
> -snowmaking not as good as in the past
> -lift maintenance worse than in the past
> -snow makers defecting for Stowe
> ...


Totally agree.


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## WinS (Feb 23, 2022)

T


cdskier said:


> I missed this comment the first time I saw your post. I remember that time The Mall was groomed quite well and was actually just thinking about it the other day for some reason. Very weird skiing that trail with it being groomed. Completely different trail! Hard to believe that was actually 7 years ago at this point!
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed...Sunrise and Birch were two of the few trails that were worth skiing several times Monday morning.


The first and last time The Mall was groomed was 2002 or 2003 other than the portion from Twist down.


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## tumbler (Feb 23, 2022)

I'm not sure how much busier it is, when everything is open the crowd is spread out but we have had greater than usual weekends of limited terrain.  My feeling is that it comes down to the difference between a corporate owner and a sole proprietor.  Corporate owners don't care about the details and don't want extra money spent on those details.  The vibe has certainly changed and I think that it starts at corporate HQ but it carried out by the new management team.  When you are a salty 25+ year mountain ops employee you don't understand the experience  the guest is looking for.  It's more than some half ass snowmaking and grooming.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2022)

WinS said:


> T
> 
> The first and last time The Mall was groomed was 2002 or 2003 other than the portion from Twist down.


I was still in college in 2002 or 2003 so I know I wasn't here back then for that. The first weekend of April 2015 is the time I'm thinking of (and what Shady was probably referring to as well). It was groomed to make it easier to get equipment in to start taking down the Valley House double chair from what I recall. The was the last weekend The Mall was open that year as then work started that week on removal. By the following weekend all the chairs and the haul rope were already down and removed.


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## teleo (Feb 23, 2022)

I do remember a groomed mall just before the dismantling.  Was very odd.

On another note, today was why I'm so glad they never groomed upper birdland.  Best spring bumps of the season so far.


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## Hawk (Feb 23, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Mississippi Dave?


Yup, he actually ended up at SR and I believe he is running snowmaking.  Or a portion of it.  They gave him a really good offer.


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## Hawk (Feb 23, 2022)

I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed.  Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails.  It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here.  Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often.  I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed.  Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails.  It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here.  Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often.  I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.



Couldn't agree more. Not to sound like an ass, but I hope we don't get a bunch of "new" people visiting that want/lobby for more grooming and "win" that fight (I feel like that audience may be where some of these current grooming comments are coming from). There are plenty of other mountains out there if you want a higher percentage of groomed terrain. The current mix of groomed vs non-groomed at SB is very good to cater to all groups and offers a terrific amount of variety. Sure it can suck in a low snow year or with a lot of thaw/freezes...but that isn't a reason to change what makes SB unique.


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## Smellytele (Feb 23, 2022)

I have to admit this year was the first time I had a season pass to SB. I though would never ask for more grooming except on death spout. I wouldn't mind that thing groomed 4 times a day early season.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 23, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Corporate owners don't care about the details and don't want extra money spent on those details.  The vibe has certainly changed and I think that it starts at corporate HQ but it carried out by the new management team.  When you are a salty 25+ year mountain ops employee you don't understand the experience  the guest is looking for.  It's more than some half ass snowmaking and grooming.



I'm not one to pick on Alterra too much, but I'll raise a few things.  Some of the details I love about Sugarbush is the free sun block in the base lodge, but this has been sometimes empty.  Also, the Mt Ellen base lodge reno for some reason skipped out on glove baskets in the men's rooms. Why?

However, one of the things i love about SB is that they actually load lifts until 4 and this hasn't changed.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I have to admit this year was the first time I had a season pass to SB. I though would never ask for more grooming except on death spout. I wouldn't mind that thing groomed 4 times a day early season.


IMO, death spout should have a dedicated snowmaking pond, and it should be resurfaced daily.


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## MadPadraic (Feb 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I find it funny the amount of comments on why things aren't groomed.  Aside from a low snowfall this year that makes it nearly impossible to groom natural trails, Sugarbush has never been a mountain that consistantly groomed bump or natural trails.  It has always been an experts mountain and the main reason I ended up here.  Occasionlly Win would groom steins because that is his favorite steep groomed run or occasionally moonshine or even middle earth or castlerock on good snow years but not often.  I hope they never groom trails like tumbler, hammerhead, Encore or domino, Lixis, mall or anything on castlerock.





cdskier said:


> Couldn't agree more. Not to sound like an ass, but I hope we don't get a bunch of "new" people visiting that want/lobby for more grooming and "win" that fight (I feel like that audience may be where some of these current grooming comments are coming from). There are plenty of other mountains out there if you want a higher percentage of groomed terrain. The current mix of groomed vs non-groomed at SB is very good to cater to all groups and offers a terrific amount of variety. Sure it can suck in a low snow year or with a lot of thaw/freezes...but that isn't a reason to change what makes SB unique.



Just to clarify my earlier gripe/request, there is a huge difference between saying that there should be at least one run smoothed out after a torch then ice event and your fears of every single run being smoothed every day. I'd advocate for common sense here and providing more diversity in runs whenever possible. A mountain with nothing but bumps gets boring just as fast as a mountain with nothing but groomers.  Honestly, I think this is an area where Cannon shines: they let Avie and Pauli bump up for a while after any snowstorm, but will knock them down once they become miserable and no longer add to the experience.  Cannon also manages to keep Vista (an all natural trail) in good shape throughout.  On the flipside, I don't think Hard Scrabble has ever seen a goomer.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Just to clarify my earlier gripe/request, there is a huge difference between saying that there should be at least one run smoothed out after a torch then ice event and your fears of every single run being smoothed every day. I'd advocate for common sense here and providing more diversity in runs whenever possible. A mountain with nothing but bumps gets boring just as fast as a mountain with nothing but groomers.  Honestly, I think this is an area where Cannon shines: they let Avie and Pauli bump up for a while after any snowstorm, but will knock them down once they become miserable and no longer add to the experience.  Cannon also manages to keep Vista (an all natural trail) in good shape throughout.  On the flipside, I don't think Hard Scrabble has ever seen a goomer.



Your earlier post would have been fine if you simply stated you wished they groomed Cliffs. And many people would have agreed with you on that one as skier's right usually is regularly groomed while skier's left is left to bump up. They made snow on it this year and were grooming it earlier in the season, so I'm still surprised it wasn't groomed. The grooming plan at SB is usually pretty well thought out. So if they didn't groom it, there presumably was a reason. Throwing Exterminator, Encore and FIS into the discussion is what caused the push back and/or confusion though. 

I can't speak to the terrain on Vista at Cannon as I've never been there. It looks like a blue on their trail map so I'm not really sure that is a fair comparison to any of the steeper natural trails at SB for what can/can't be groomed. SB does groom some natural trails as needed IF there's sufficient snow depth to do so and if conditions warrant. Right now even if they wanted to, the vast majority of natural snow trails don't have anywhere near enough depth to groom them.


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## HowieT2 (Feb 23, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> I'm not one to pick on Alterra too much, but I'll raise a few things.  Some of the details I love about Sugarbush is the free sun block in the base lodge, but this has been sometimes empty.  Also, the Mt Ellen base lodge reno for some reason skipped out on glove baskets in the men's rooms. Why?
> 
> However, one of the things i love about SB is that they actually load lifts until 4 and this hasn't changed.


oh yeah, and hooks all over that lodge to hang gear.

personally I don't know what alterra is spending on operating SB, whether its more or less than previously.  Pretty sure most of us don't know. What I do know, is that the corporate entity seems to be doing well, and SB specifically seems to be doing well, with lodging filled and plenty of skiers spending money at the mountain.   I think when conditions suck people are rightfully aggrieved and naturally look for someone/thing to blame.  Maybe theyre right, I have no idea.   Seems to me like when a baseball team is struggling to score runs, they blame the hitting coach and some poor (well not really poor) guy gets fired when it really has little to do with his job performance.  I'll bet come next week, if we pull down 2 feet of the white stuff and everyone's pounding laps in slidebrook, there will be a lot less talk about how Alterra is ruining the place.


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## ducky (Feb 24, 2022)

As Share Prices Tumble, Wall Street Says Vail Needs to Clean Up Operations
					

Share price went from $372 in November to $276 in February, following national criticism over its management and sales strategies.




					www.skimag.com
				




I hear from local Stowe skier friends to expect an exodus next year from Stowe to Sugarbush. Now could be an opportunity to balance the pass price to revenue equation (by raising prices).


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## Slidebrook87 (Feb 24, 2022)

Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.


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## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2022)

ducky said:


> As Share Prices Tumble, Wall Street Says Vail Needs to Clean Up Operations
> 
> 
> Share price went from $372 in November to $276 in February, following national criticism over its management and sales strategies.
> ...


makes my day if that happens


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## mikec142 (Feb 24, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.


I've been spending the majority of my ski days at SB for over ten years.  The interesting thing to me is that I acrue new SB knowledge and form and refine opinions every time I ski at SB.  One of those opinions (and it may not be a popular one) is that I'm not a fan of Stein's.  Mostly because I usually find it to be icy, both when bumped and groomed.  Sadly, once April hits, I rarely get up there, but I'm looking forward to a warm spring bump session on Stein's that will hopefully change my opinion.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2022)

It started snowing this morning in Big Sky and I know why--I saw Win here this morning!


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## cdskier (Feb 24, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Personally of the trails that aren't groomed this season, I think that Steins, Cliffs, Birdland (upper) should be groomed. I always find that Steins rarely has enough natural snow to get bumped up and ski well, and once they have made snow on it, its usually an icy mess. I haven't skied it in ages for this very reason, but I recall it being groomed quite often during the 18/19 season.



I think the issue with Steins is it has been tricky to find the right time to groom it after they made the whales on it. First you wanted them to drain...but then you also need to remember this is a full 2-shift job to groom that out with the whales on it. So you need to probably do it on a day that you decide to skip winching some other terrain such as Ripcord. The weather hasn't been conducive to allowing the timing to be right to do this yet. At least that's my thoughts on why it hasn't been groomed yet.

I also don't think it is accurate to say Cliffs isn't groomed this season. I've skied it groomed (pretty sure more than 1 day too). They had the whole issue with the uphill access being cut off temporarily due to issues while they were winching it.

As for upper birdland...again it comes down to snow depth. They made less snow on it this year (ran out of water while they were working on it and never went back to it). Letting it bump up makes sense in that situation as it'll last longer. Kind of fun to have another low angle bump run. I'm not sure what I'd like to see going forward with that trail.


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> It started snowing this morning in Big Sky and I know why--I saw Win here this morning!


It’s going to snow a foot plus here 
Going to be all time 
Laps in slide all day


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## ThatGuy (Feb 24, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> It’s going to snow a foot plus here
> Going to be all time
> Laps in slide all day


Wouldn’t count on a foot making SB ski that great. The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.


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## ducky (Feb 24, 2022)

From our friends to the north posted a couple hours ago. 
Ski+RideVT​Stowe Mountain Rescue  · 2h  · 
https://www.facebook.com/#
Attention Stowe residents and visitors (and please don't shoot the messenger): if you're relishing the prospect of some backcountry skiing after this coming storm, perhaps think again. With the impending Winter Weather Advisory forecasting 6-12 inches of snow for Northern Vermont, it will be tempting to get out there and play but it is imperative that backcountry skiers and riders be wary of the conditions.
With the recent warm weather, Mother Nature has absolutely devastated the back-country snowpack, reducing it to 'November levels' with bare ground showing and exposing debris that just a few weeks ago was covered.  Furthermore, the gullies have been flush with raging water, eliminating or severely impacting the ice/snow covering - and where snow still stands, runoff continues to flow under a severely undercut protective layer.  The consequences of breaking through would be ugly (or potentially deadly, if we're going to be graphic).
Please heed this warning.  ALPINE back-country skiing/riding is severely compromised and we urge skiers/riders to avoid that terrain until snowpack returns to appropriate levels.
Fingers crossed for March...


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## cdskier (Feb 24, 2022)

Well this should make some people happy...



> Overnight our Groomers will hit over 40 trails including Stein's Run and The Cliffs.



And Ripcord is NOT on the grooming list tonight (to my point earlier that you needed a time when you can groom Steins and skip Ripcord due to how much work Steins with whales is to groom out).

Upper Birdland is on the schedule as well for tonight (before a storm is a good time to reset bumps...so this makes sense as well).


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## STREETSKIER (Feb 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Wouldn’t count on a foot making SB ski that great. The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.


Oh


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## HowieT2 (Feb 24, 2022)

mansfield snow depth is at 32".  so not good but a solid foot would help.  more likely SB gets a foot than our friends up north.


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## cdskier (Feb 24, 2022)

There's a lot less snow at the base than at the summit. Lots of bare ground along German Flats Rd when I drove down to town before.


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## Los (Feb 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> The base is pretty much nonexistent after the recent weather.


Is that supposition, or is it based on first hand knowledge following this week’s rain event?


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## cdskier (Feb 24, 2022)

Los said:


> Is that supposition, or is it based on first hand knowledge following this week’s rain event?


Depends where you are on the mountain. Upper elevations still have base. Lower elevations are very minimal. My condo is a couple hundred feet above the base elevation at LP and there's an awful lot of bare ground around here. CR webcam shows the area around the base of the lift looking pretty thin... Sure this isn't indicative of everything as there certainly is some base in some places at lower elevations depending on aspect and traffic...


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## WinS (Feb 24, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
> -snowmaking not as good as in the past
> -lift maintenance worse than in the past
> -snow makers defecting for Stowe
> ...


I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.

First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice.  But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
- This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually  came here instead of going to Stowe.  The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could. 
-The majority of the Lifts Ops management team is still here. A big loss two years ago was Jasen Bellomy, the Lift Maintenance Manager. We got him from Saddleback when they closed, but he went back with two others when they reopened. He actually applied for a job other than lift maintenance a year ago but it did not work out and he has become the Mountain Manager at Bellayre in NY, a role he aspired to.
-Labor has been challenging everywhere as you all know. Sugarbush had 91% of jobs filled at the start of the season. Not great but better than many. I have heard of some as low as 75%.  John Hammond moved the minimum wage to $15 over the summer, a significant increase, and he was one of the first to do it.
-I too wish John Egan was still here. He was a respected colleague and added a lot. The Bush Pilot coaches and Adventure Blazer coaches as no longer here, but I am not aware of other leaving because of his departure. 
-Yes, the new app was a step backward and very frustrating to the Sugarbush team as well as us. Fortunately, there are some important improvements. 
-Slidebrook is disappointing to all of us but also to Sugarbush. On a busy day it moves people and makes for a better guest experience. But when you are down to 8 lift mechanics from an ideal 14, it is impossible to spare one for two hours to get it open. All 40 tours have to be visually seen by a mechanic. In my opinion Spencer, the current manager of the lift maintenance team, is a very able professional and is rebuilding the team. I commented in an earlier post about some of the competition for lift mechanics. 
-I disagree with the comment about the language used about skinning. It was appropriately tough given what occurred. The winch incident was the final straw, but  there  had been multiple violations occurring before that one.
-The blazer comment is a reasonable one. Keith Paxman took over just as the season began and inherited something that he could not fix this year.
- Yes, there have been quite a few lifts issues this year. Shit happens especially in climates like ours, but I do not think it is from neglect. That said, it sucks to be stuck on a lift for 20 or more minutes and no one cares about the reason.
- I can‘t share skier visit numbers, but I do not think they will exceed those during my final two years of ownership. But, having all lifts running and the woods skiable makes for a very different experience on a crowded day.
- Grooming. This is where I might have done things a bit differently at times Like grooming Sunrise a couple of days earlier. But I am not on top of groomer shifts and other issues that impact  the daily snow plan. Stein‘s on the other hand needs to be groomed when either snow or snowmaking with occur afterwards. Otherwise, it needs winching every night which then takes away from other trails.

Now, an industry respective. At the last NSAA Board meeting we had a “go around the table update“ from all Board members who are predominantly GMs of ski areas. They come from East and West, small and large. Almost to a person they commented on how customer perception this year was as tough as they have experienced and highlighTed many of the same comments listed above.

Bottom line:

I too have heard many of these comments
Many of the skiers are first time IKON visitors
Staffing and Covid have placed huge strains on all Sugarbush areas.
Alterra is behaving exactly as they told me they would. 
  Example: they followed through on the commit to VASS and added more $ to improve the lodge for all
  They have not inserted anyone onto the team here, but 5-6 have been promoted to jobs in Alterra. 
I personally think the Sugarbush team has done an excellent job this winter and are working their ass off.

That said I am in Big Sky and will miss the Friday powder which should change the conversation.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 24, 2022)

WinS said:


> I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.
> 
> First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice.  But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
> - This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually  came here instead of going to Stowe.  The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could.
> ...



I know you don't like to comment on operational issues, but thank you for this post. I think it gives a very useful and important perspective. Enjoy Big Sky!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> This is spot on. I recognize that it’s been a rough couple years with COVID, but there’s a lengthy (and growing) list of gripes I am hearing from people, and rightfully or wrongfully, they are attributing it to poor management by Alterra:
> -snowmaking not as good as in the past
> -lift maintenance worse than in the past
> -snow makers defecting for Stowe
> ...


Sounds like an IKONic experience to me.


----------



## HowieT2 (Feb 25, 2022)

WinS said:


> I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.
> 
> First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice.  But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
> - This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually  came here instead of going to Stowe.  The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could.
> ...


Thank you.  Really appreciate your input, not just now, but over the years.  
question, there was speculation that the shortage of lift mechanics is due to low wages for the position.  Is that the issue?


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## cdskier (Feb 25, 2022)

Just a friendly warning from Sugarbush.

This snow is a little too dry and not bonding overly well with the ice below. I took my hard pack skis out this afternoon instead of my “packed powder” skis and I feel like it was the right choice. Lots of slick spots between the powder piles so you have to stay on your toes.

Still nice to see everything white again, but there’s lots of thin cover to watch out for.


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## ducky (Feb 25, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Thank you.  Really appreciate your input, not just now, but over the years.
> question, there was speculation that the shortage of lift mechanics is due to low wages for the position.  Is that the issue?


What do you consider low wage? Bartenders in the valley make around $30. You have to pay at least $40/hr to get your house cleaned here, as you may know and you still can't find anyone. Most of the local restaurants, Lawson's, Mad Taco, start at $20.

Once upon a time there were ski bums who would wash dishes (insert other jobs) for a pass.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 25, 2022)

Ill speculate...if you cant fill positions..your not paying enough..


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## teleo (Feb 25, 2022)

That was the sign of the day.  Lots of people came up last night and had no clue how nonexistent the base was.

Need a few more of these storms.


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## IceEidolon (Feb 25, 2022)

Another question is will SB train people, say, snowmakers that are a good fit for the team and interested, to be lift mechanics? Or do they only hire people with experience.


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Another question is will SB train people, say, snowmakers that are a good fit for the team and interested, to be lift mechanics? Or do they only hire people with experience.


Yes, they have and will continue I am sure to train motivated people to be a lift mechanic.


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## WinS (Feb 25, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Thank you.  Really appreciate your input, not just now, but over the years.
> question, there was speculation that the shortage of lift mechanics is due to low wages for the position.  Is that the issue?


Like any business we always looked at what the market paid for all positions and tried to be competitive. In the past two years the market for experienced mechanical and electrical engineers went up to higher levels. Plus businesses outside the ski industry became competitors for lift mechanics. I know that Sugarbush is aware of what us occurring and the needs  to be competitive. But it is not only just the money. Not everyone wants to be a lift mechanic because of the required work.

I just read John Bleh’s blog about lift issues which addresses many of the issues people have been raising.


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## Newpylong (Feb 25, 2022)

Aerial Tramways are a very specialized skillset and there are very few mechanics overall who are proficient in it. Training is a must, but the pool is small of who will want to do it regardless of pay.


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## cdskier (Feb 25, 2022)

To Win's point, @Johnny B's recent blog post over at Sugarbush's website really addresses a lot of the lift issue and lift mechanic questions being asked and discussed. Perfect timing!









						Let's Talk About Lifts - SugarBlog
					

Lifts have been a focus in many minds this season. Learn more about what's been affecting operations and how Sugarbush is working through it.




					blog.sugarbush.com
				




Well worth a read...


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## pinnoke (Feb 25, 2022)

+1 ; very worth the time to read.


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## Johnny B (Feb 26, 2022)

Win - what a great post. I wish I had read it before I wrote that blog! Hopefully that blog post helps shed some light on things for all of you. We're certainly feeling like we're in a much better position today than we were over the summer, or even earlier this winter. 

That being said, I hope you don't see this until after a long day of skiing. Get out there! Things are much improved from Thursday (downright scary at 3pm when I got out for a couple runs).


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## slatham (Feb 26, 2022)

I am glad John followed Win’s legacy of open communication. I must say I am amazed at the number of lift issues industry wide this year.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 26, 2022)

Very maintenance intensive devices...
If you dont schedule maintenance..they will schedule it for you..


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## urungus (Feb 26, 2022)

Skied Castle Rock for the first time today.  Castle Rock Lift was not running, not sure why, so I figured I could escape the Saturday bluebird powder day holiday week hordes by making the hike.  The hike over there has been on my east coast bucket list for a while.  I’ve seen it advertised as taking 15 minutes, but I am old and out of shape, so I took plenty of rest breaks and it took me about an hour from the top of Lincoln Peak.  Was pretty wiped out at the end but totally worth it.  Then had to decide which one run to take since I knew I wouldn’t be going back today .  Always wanted to try Rumble since it is considered one of the hardest trails in the East, but decided to go with the namesake Castle Rock Run.  Had a super fun run down, lots of soft chopped up powder and very little of the ice lurking underneath that I experienced yesterday at Mt Ellen.  Only saw one other group of people, despite the crowded conditions elsewhere on the mountain.



Nice soft powder on the way to the hike:

The hike !!


Castle Rock Run:


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## urungus (Feb 26, 2022)




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## Smellytele (Feb 26, 2022)

Did castle rock this afternoon. Took about 20 minutes to get over there. Could have been faster but getting my skis back on take awhile. TTS tele bindings. Anyway

Did castle rock trail as well. Softer than anything else on the mountain. Hit nothing underneath and no ice. Amazing how natural trails are so much better with fresh after a thaw freeze. Man made snow sucks!


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Did castle rock this afternoon. Took about 20 minutes to get over there. Could have been faster but getting my skis back on take awhile. TTS tele bindings. Anyway
> 
> Did castle rock trail as well. Softer than anything else on the mountain. Hit nothing underneath and no ice. Amazing how natural trails are so much better with fresh after a thaw freeze. Man made snow sucks!



I don't think it is simply natural trails being better as I skied plenty of natural trails yesterday and today that had a decent amount of things to hit underneath and ice still lurking. CR being closed during the thaws helped I'll bet. As did letting the snow settle a bit before opening up CR to hike access. And then less skier traffic helps as well. So a bunch of factors helped is my guess...

I was at ME today, so no CR for me, although those pics from urungus look like it was well worth the hike.


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## urungus (Feb 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Did castle rock this afternoon. Took about 20 minutes to get over there. Could have been faster but getting my skis back on take awhile. TTS tele bindings. Anyway
> 
> Did castle rock trail as well. Softer than anything else on the mountain. Hit nothing underneath and no ice. Amazing how natural trails are so much better with fresh after a thaw freeze. Man made snow sucks!


20 minutes, nice.  I need to get on the treadmill LOL


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 27, 2022)

Nice job


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 27, 2022)

teleo said:


> That was the sign of the day.  Lots of people came up last night and had no clue how nonexistent the base was.
> 
> Need a few more of these storms.


Apparently its snowing again..


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## teleo (Feb 27, 2022)

Snowing lightly today.  Every bit helps.

Snowmakers were lugging hoses at the top of valley house this morning.  Said they were going to hit steins and coffee run.  So we'll get some more depth for april!


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## cdskier (Feb 27, 2022)

teleo said:


> Snowing lightly today.  Every bit helps.
> 
> Snowmakers were lugging hoses at the top of valley house this morning.  Said they were going to hit steins and coffee run.  So we'll get some more depth for april!


I saw them staging some of the snologic sleds along with hoses around the bottom of Steins and along Coffee Run. Fascinating to see them getting ready to turn the guns back on at this point. Not sure how feasible it is, but if you're going to turn guns back on, they should really consider hitting the last section of DS. That trail is a disaster right now. 8AM this morning and it was a sheet of ice already at that point in numerous spots.


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## slatham (Feb 27, 2022)

Great pics. Looks like real skiing, good skiing. Amoung the reasons why CR is skiing well I am a believer in letting new snow settle and bind to hold up and eventually ski better.


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## Lotso (Feb 27, 2022)

Complete whiteout in the Valley for the past 20 minutes...crazy.

Anyway, skied ME today and man, was I pleasantly surprised! Lapped RR off Summit, then Elbow a couple of times, then over to Exterminator via the catwalk from Elbow. Surprisingly good cover on Exterm, and Lower Exterm is one of the nicest trails that gets no love. WWay and Cruiser also really nice surface. Groomers did a phenomenal job, and the couple of inches of fresh certainly help-ed.


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## mikec142 (Feb 28, 2022)

Johnny B said:


> Win - what a great post. I wish I had read it before I wrote that blog! Hopefully that blog post helps shed some light on things for all of you. We're certainly feeling like we're in a much better position today than we were over the summer, or even earlier this winter.
> 
> That being said, I hope you don't see this until after a long day of skiing. Get out there! Things are much improved from Thursday (downright scary at 3pm when I got out for a couple runs).


Hey John,

Thanks for that blog.  The one thing that I don't recall you mentioning is that there were/are a number of lift mechanics that opted for indoor jobs.


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## mikec142 (Feb 28, 2022)

Urungus,

Great pix.  Thanks for the report.  Much like you, hiking over to Castlerock was an east coast bucket list thing for me too.  I had heard 15-20 minutes.  LOL.  My kids and I did it a few years back, it took us 45 minutes with breaks.  We don't have skins and we have heavier downhill boots.  If there had been people behind us, I would have been mortified.  Looks like it was worth it for you as those pix show some great looking conditions.  FWIW, my kids and I were wrecked at the end of that day.


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## Boxtop Willie (Feb 28, 2022)

Excellent morning today (work calls were cancelled so went over for a few runs...well, more than a few) They got a a good 5-6 inches from the squalls yesterday. Moonshine, Mall, Sunrise, Morning Star all skied great. A couple of high speed groomers too.
They're blowing snow on Steins, Coffee run, upper Snowball and around the base area.
Bravo was down all morning, so they opened Valley House.


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## mikec142 (Feb 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I saw them staging some of the snologic sleds along with hoses around the bottom of Steins and along Coffee Run. Fascinating to see them getting ready to turn the guns back on at this point. Not sure how feasible it is, but if you're going to turn guns back on, they should really consider hitting the last section of DS. That trail is a disaster right now. 8AM this morning and it was a sheet of ice already at that point in numerous spots.


CD,

In regard to blowing snow on the last section of DS, I'm rarely up there end of season, but wouldn't you need that to maintain access to Heaven's Gate?  If so, would make sense to blow more snow to make sure that pod last as long as possible.


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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> CD,
> 
> In regard to blowing snow on the last section of DS, I'm rarely up there end of season, but wouldn't you need that to maintain access to Heaven's Gate?  If so, would make sense to blow more snow to make sure that pod last as long as possible.



Yes...once that is gone, you can't access HG (I'm assuming HG Traverse will melt out well before DS since the traverse is only natural snow and that's typically what happens). I'm not sure what the actual depth is on DS right now. Maybe it has good depth but is just a lot of ice. I didn't look too closely at skier's left of DS this weekend, but it is also possible the hydrants are buried in snow/ice which would make further snow-making a challenge on DS. They may also not have capacity to charge the lines to DS while snow is being made on the VH side. If they're not making snow today on DS, I'm assuming there's a reason (or they think what is there is sufficient or think that blowing more on top of it won't help solve the ice issues). I know DS is always a bit problematic due to a variety of factors, but this year it is the worst I can remember it being in a long time. The frequent thaw/freezes combined with low natural snow are likely the root causes...


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## ducky (Feb 28, 2022)

Hiked and took my time - 20 minutes and I'm in my 60s. Had to come over from Reverse Traverse and up. It was -7˚ and felt it. Found rocks and ice on the run but not terrible.


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## jdr14 (Mar 1, 2022)

WinS said:


> I debated whether to weigh in on this as I can’t be seen as totally objective. However, I am still on the NSAA Board as Past Chair and will share some industry perspective, and I have skied 82 of my 86 days at Sugarbush this year.
> 
> First, Sugarbush thoughts. If I were still the owner the comments would be “that Smith guy is cheap and not spending money on grooming and snowmaking and lift maintenance.” There is very little that has been done this season that I would do differently. While I have no financial interest in Sugarbush or Alterra, I do have a vested interested in helping where I can with thoughts or advice.  But I do that selectively as there is nothing worse than a former owner or CEO meddling after retirement. Alterra does not micro-manage. They expect John and his team to create a sensible annual budget and after review and approval they hold the Sugarbush team accountable for delivering it. No different than what we did under my ownership.
> - This has been about the most challenging year for snowmaking that I have seen. It was warm and the number of snowmaking hours were brief before another warm-up hit. Sugarbush started with one of the best crews in recent years and while people were not leaving for Stowe, snowmakers actually  came here instead of going to Stowe.  The snowmaking temps required a different plan than we have had in past years, and that it why you saw Birdland coming on later than has been the case. While fewer gallons were blown because of the weather volatility, Sugarbush‘s cost of snowmaking went up significantly as I pointed out in any earlier post. That did not deter Sugarbush from making snow whenever they could.
> ...



Win - Thank you as always for sharing your thoughts. I've always enjoyed reading your posts on here and found them to be authentic and insightful. And this one was no exception. I agree that COVID, staffing and weather have created an incredibly challenging couple of years. 

Johnny B - Thank you for the blog post - lots of info in there that I was not aware of. Huge thank you to you and the entire team for all the hard work you are doing to make the best of a really challenging couple of years. I hope you'll continue to share thoughts on this forum as well - it means a lot. Would love to hear more about any plans you have for further improvements. I know a lot of people had high expectations for Alterra investment when the acquisition was announced. That was before the pandemic hit. But still hoping there are some things in the works to further enhance the on-the-mountain experience.

The skiing was great this weekend after the Friday storm. Did the hike to CR a couple times over the weekend and it was well worth it. Hopefully this refresh is the start of a snowy March.


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## Blurski (Mar 1, 2022)

jdr14 said:


> Win - Thank you as always for sharing your thoughts. I've always enjoyed reading your posts on here and found them to be authentic and insightful. And this one was no exception. I agree that COVID, staffing and weather have created an incredibly challenging couple of years.
> 
> Johnny B - Thank you for the blog post - lots of info in there that I was not aware of. Huge thank you to you and the entire team for all the hard work you are doing to make the best of a really challenging couple of years. I hope you'll continue to share thoughts on this forum as well - it means a lot. Would love to hear more about any plans you have for further improvements. I know a lot of people had high expectations for Alterra investment when the acquisition was announced. That was before the pandemic hit. But still hoping there are some things in the works to further enhance the on-the-mountain experience.
> 
> The skiing was great this weekend after the Friday storm. Did the hike to CR a couple times over the weekend and it was well worth it. Hopefully this refresh is the start of a snowy March.


https://www.saminfo.com/news/sam-he...50jZ5MWeoSUpTSm70RD-r9sEX-o2UrtWXg-7BY-dNzRDg


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## djd66 (Mar 1, 2022)

No love for the Bush!


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## Blurski (Mar 1, 2022)

djd66 said:


> No love for the Bush!


Hopefully there is a few Mill set aside for the Bush & they only mention the big projects, not all $344M was accounted for in the article.


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## Joshco0752 (Mar 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ill speculate...if you cant fill positions..your not paying enough..


The issue with the labor shortage is partly not paying enough and more likely not having access to foreign workers. In years past there were many, many more people working ski areas on temporary visas. Not being political, but our immigration policies and visa policies over the past several years have hurt many service industries in finding enough people to work. Everyone in Vermont has been struggling to find workers at any price. Many of the people we work with have increased wages and increased wages, are great places to work and they just can't find bodies. Just my opinion.


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## Powder Whore (Mar 1, 2022)

I found a pair of googles today on the fis run-out,
 if anybody is looking for them  I left them in a branch skiers left towards the end of the run-out.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 1, 2022)

Watched a lift mechanic ski down a rocky slope under the sensation quad chair today..wind was pretty strong..snow dumping..climbing and checking towers...
That should be a very high paying job..very!


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 1, 2022)

We need one of these to replace bravo http://links.snowbird.mkt8163.com/s...QyMzI5MzU5OTA2S0&j=MjIwMDE0NjA0NQS2&mt=1&rt=0


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## tumbler (Mar 1, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Hopefully there is a few Mill set aside for the Bush & they only mention the big projects, not all $344M was accounted for in the article.


We said the same thing last year and got nuthin compared to the western areas.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> The issue with the labor shortage is partly not paying enough and more likely not having access to foreign workers. In years past there were many, many more people working ski areas on temporary visas. Not being political, but our immigration policies and visa policies over the past several years have hurt many service industries in finding enough people to work. Everyone in Vermont has been struggling to find workers at any price. Many of the people we work with have increased wages and increased wages, are great places to work and they just can't find bodies. Just my opinion.


I think that’s correct but not really with respect to the lift mechanics in particular.  Those are full time positions with benefits. they are trained and skilled mechanics.  There just haven’t been enough workers getting training and going into it.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> We said the same thing last year and got nuthin compared to the western areas.


We did get the mt Ellen base lodge rehab, fwiw, which wasn’t  publicized at all.  So maybe there will be some similarly small capital investments.
with the sugarbush inn no longer being used for guests, you’d think they would want to add some lodging at the lp base area


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## IceEidolon (Mar 1, 2022)

Joshco0752 said:


> The issue with the labor shortage is partly not paying enough and more likely not having access to foreign workers. In years past there were many, many more people working ski areas on temporary visas. Not being political, but our immigration policies and visa policies over the past several years have hurt many service industries in finding enough people to work. Everyone in Vermont has been struggling to find workers at any price. Many of the people we work with have increased wages and increased wages, are great places to work and they just can't find bodies. Just my opinion.


Could be an issue with willingness to hire and train, could also be that even though wages are higher than the past that comparable positions in other industries are even higher, or it might be that housing isn't easily available so only talent that's already local can apply. Even more than a full time snowmaker/snowmaking tech, lift mechanics are skilled professionals and anyone with the skills is going to expect pay commensurate with that. If it takes an unreasonable amount to buy a decent single family home in a decent school district, etc, etc, then "good wages" aren't gonna cut it. I seriously doubt lift mechanics were coming in on visas unless there's a 'never summer' rotation of professionals chasing the busy season from the Southern Hemisphere.


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## Johnny B (Mar 1, 2022)

For what it's worth regarding the big capital announcement...

1. We certainly have capital projects planned and we will be pushing our own more local release a little further down the road. Stay tuned!
2. I've seen a fair amount of feedback like "no love for the east coast!" with regards to that Alterra capital announcement. To that I would just reiterate that most of these major projects are planned years in advance. We've only been part of the family for 2 years. Then you also have to think about COVID, which essentially pushed Alterra's capital plans back a year, so there was some catching up to do with pre-planned projects. 

Hope everyone had a chance to ski the gun-pow on Stein's yesterday or this morning (dryer yesterday but still great today). Pretty awesome stuff.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> We need one of these to replace bravo http://links.snowbird.mkt8163.com/s...QyMzI5MzU5OTA2S0&j=MjIwMDE0NjA0NQS2&mt=1&rt=0


More like.....


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> More like.....


Yep, thats exactly what we need.   After spending a week out there ( rode the lift a bunch) bubble 6 pack with heated seats is awesome!


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## ducky (Mar 2, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> We need one of these to replace bravo http://links.snowbird.mkt8163.com/s...QyMzI5MzU5OTA2S0&j=MjIwMDE0NjA0NQS2&mt=1&rt=0











						Skier suffers minor injuries when gondola cabin falls 10 feet at Maine resort
					

A Maine ski resort said a teenage skier suffered minor injuries when a ski lift cabin fell due to a gust of wind. Read more on Boston.com.



					www.boston.com


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Yep, thats exactly what we need.   After spending a week out there ( rode the lift a bunch) bubble 6 pack with heated seats is awesome!


No thanks...and thankfully I'm pretty sure SB doesn't have the room as these require massive amounts of space around the terminals as you need to take the chairs off the line and store them each night.


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## slatham (Mar 2, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Yep, thats exactly what we need.   After spending a week out there ( rode the lift a bunch) bubble 6 pack with heated seats is awesome!



Is this the Sugarbush thread? Seems like it was highjacked by Okemo.......

Just kidding. Those are sweet lifts especially when cold and windy. But I highly doubt we see them at the 'Bush.


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> No thanks...and thankfully I'm pretty sure SB doesn't have the room as these require massive amounts of space around the terminals as you need to take the chairs off the line and store them each night.


You are right on the storage as they need to be charged at nigh.  I was half joking on the heat seats ( although if you have ever ridden on one of these, they are pretty “cool”). I have zero issues with bubble chairs and I would be the first one to lower the bubble on a minus 10 day.  They also have one of these at Killington (replaced the Snowdon quad, it’s really nice on a cold windy day.


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2022)

djd66 said:


> You are right on the storage as they need to be charged at nigh.  I was half joking on the heat seats ( although if you have ever ridden on one of these, they are pretty “cool”). I have zero issues with bubble chairs and I would be the first one to lower the bubble on a minus 10 day.  They also have one of these at Killington (replaced the Snowdon quad, it’s really nice on a cold windy day.


I hate them...I think they're disgusting. The ones at K were filthy when I was there last time. Just another thing to break down as well and more added maintenance costs.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 2, 2022)

Please don't bubble-chair Sugarbush!


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## Slidebrook87 (Mar 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I hate them...I think they're disgusting. The ones at K were filthy when I was there last time. Just another thing to break down as well and more added maintenance costs.


They've been everywhere in Europe ever since the '80s. Americans have an obsession with always putting the bubble down but ideally you only put it down in poor weather. I think they're a great option, and don't necessarily need to be a fancy, heated Doppelmayr D-Line one either.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 2, 2022)

The snowdon 6 is more comfy than my couch...


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## urungus (Mar 2, 2022)

Few questions about Castlerock.

1) Is there any public access to the interior of the warming hut at the top, only doors I saw were marked “staff only”

2) Why is Liftline blacked on out signpost ?



3) I was surprised to see “Rumble” entrance sign on skiers left of Castlerock Run, is the blue line in satellite photo considered part of Rumble (or does it have some other nickname) ?  It looks like the blue route bypasses the difficult “rock garden” section of the red line, which I thought was the “official” entrance.  And the yellow line is the alternate easier entrance.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2022)

i would interpret that sign as more of a 'this way to rumble', tho i don't know if that little connector trail (blue) has any actual name. i consider rumble to begin at the entrance from liftline (either yellow or red)

no idea why sign is blacked out

pretty sure that's a patrol hut, not for public. may be open to public in summer a trail hut?


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## cdskier (Mar 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i would interpret that sign as more of a 'this way to rumble', tho i don't know if that little connector trail (blue) has any actual name. i consider rumble to begin at the entrance from liftline (either yellow or red)
> 
> no idea why sign is blacked out
> 
> pretty sure that's a patrol hut, not for public. may be open to public in summer a trail hut?



Vandalism would be my guess for the sign being blacked out...I can't think of any legitimate reason for it.

That hut is labeled on the trail map as an actual "warming hut", so I would assume that means it should be open to the public (and I swear I've been in there before several years ago). It is possible that due to the small size it was temporarily closed to the public due to COVID.


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## Teleskier (Mar 2, 2022)

I know most of the deals all happen pre-season. But if someone wanted to try Sugarbush for a day to compare and contrast, are there any deals to be had beyond the online Sugarbush Store rate of $129?


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 2, 2022)

If you know an ikon pass holder you can grt a discount through them..
But these days 129 is cheap
Tomorrow will be good...weekend not so much


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> I know most of the deals all happen pre-season. But if someone wanted to try Sugarbush for a day to compare and contrast, are there any deals to be had beyond the online Sugarbush Store rate of $129?



ikon pass holders get 8 family and friend tickets at 25% off the window rate. not sure if that comes out lower than the online pre-sale price

i just got back from 11 consecutive ski days and 13 days away from home, and i go to Chicago for work tomorrow and get home Friday night. i really want to ski this weekend but i think my girlfriend would like actually murder me. we have nice dinner plans instead.


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## Teleskier (Mar 2, 2022)

I haven't had any 'real' dinner plans (either with other people, or indoors) since the pandemic started, but on the other hand, I have skied quite a bunch. 

If it matches your risk profile, I'd personally go with the dinner plans. The ski hill will be there next year, you'll want your girlfriend to be there too.


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## SkiTheEast (Mar 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ikon pass holders get 8 family and friend tickets at 25% off the window rate. not sure if that comes out lower than the online pre-sale price


The Ikon discounted ticket comes out to $134 everyday (no dynamic pricing) since the window rate is marked at $179.  Maybe a few weeks early but usually start seeing some people offloading extra quad pack tickets toward the latter part of the month...


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## djd66 (Mar 2, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They've been everywhere in Europe ever since the '80s. Americans have an obsession with always putting the bubble down but ideally you only put it down in poor weather. I think they're a great option, and don't necessarily need to be a fancy, heated Doppelmayr D-Line one either.


They are everywhere out west.  (Big Sky has 4 of them) Every time I ride on one, I always think of the cold ass winters in VT.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 3, 2022)

Nice few sleeper snowfalls has made for excellent skiing  lately  ,enough so where I’m taking the day off work again  
Still snowing lightly this am 
No powder hungry crowds just a few  locals 
Like it used to be


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 3, 2022)

The slug has arrived..coming down pretty good...powder day


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 3, 2022)

Powder day...empty


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 3, 2022)

Sweet runs all over the mountain today again
Deeper today 5”
 tracks were  filled in on the tree runs I did yesterday   still tippie toe  lots of stuff to hit
But some amazing super clean almost knee deep lines 
Trails were prime ripcord was  real nice
Grandstand as as good as it gets 
I rode  a  Surfy  fat pow board that has major float 
temps are going below zero tonight


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2022)

Looks sweet. Today was the type of day where I really wish I was retired and/or independently wealthy and didn't have to work. It was so nice to see that fresh blanket of 5" of snow this morning out my window...although not as nice knowing I had meetings all day and wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. Those over-performing "snow-showers" that catch people off-guard are the best.

Looks like CR lift reopens tomorrow. Guess I'm not going to get the workout doing the hike over after work tomorrow that I thought I was going to have to do...

On another note...I just gave away my first "Friends and Family" discounts on Ikon. My cousin is coming up with his family this weekend and I guess it was a somewhat last minute decision so the only tickets left online were the $169 ones for Saturday. With the discount it came to $135 or something...which is still crazy, but at least I was able to help him out a little bit.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 3, 2022)

Paradise was deep...


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## NYSnowflake (Mar 3, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> I know most of the deals all happen pre-season. But if someone wanted to try Sugarbush for a day to compare and contrast, are there any deals to be had beyond the online Sugarbush Store rate of $129?


Send me a pm if you want a discount code.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

CR chair opened..best snow on the hill


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## tumbler (Mar 4, 2022)

Skiing with Jason, nice.


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2022)

I lapped CR this afternoon for a bunch of runs. Did CR Run to Cotillion, Middle Earth, and a CR Run to Lower CR Run. No slug sightings. It was fun, although I'm sure this morning was better. Amazing that there was over 2 feet of snow in the last week and it still is so thin in a lot of spots.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

I went from 10 to 1230 non stop..then i was kerplunkt...obviously it got thinner as the day went on..so you had to slow down a bit..but you could rip on cotillion as it had the best coverage..as well as lower lift line. 
3 days of powdery skiing...more than i got out west.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

Now...have to decide about sunday...skiing in the warm rain may be fun. All the bump runs today where pretty skied off. Yesterday was the day..even organ donor was very deep early on..but not...so much today. Water proofing my stuff today in anticipation.


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I went from 10 to 1230 non stop..then i was kerplunkt...obviously it got thinner as the day went on..so you had to slow down a bit..but you could rip on cotillion as it had the best coverage..as well as lower lift line.
> 3 days of powdery skiing...more than i got out west.



Nice. I only got out there a little after 1 once I was done with some meetings... Cotillion (and Lower CR Run) always tend to have some of the best cover in my opinion.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

What still amazes me is how few people are here...stowe has 5x the amount of people at least. Glad i got an ikon this season


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2022)

urungus said:


> Few questions about Castlerock.
> 
> 2) Why is Liftline blacked on out signpost ?



So I noticed quite a few trail signs on CR today where the top one was "erased". In addition to the ones you mentioned, this was also the case at the intersection of CR/Lower CR/Troll Road/Cotillion (Cotillion I believe is supposed to be the top one on that particular trail sign...and it was all black) and the case as well at the intersection of Middle Earth and Troll Road (ME is the top one there and was simply all black).


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## shadyjay (Mar 4, 2022)

Guess I really should've kept this Wed-Fri as my week to get up there.  Oh well... I'll still have fun next week.  Set my expectations low for pristine conditions, then see what happens.  Maybe I'll get lucky!


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## WinS (Mar 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> What still amazes me is how few people are here...stowe has 5x the amount of people at least. Glad i got an ikon this season


I do not know Stowe’s skier visits now but Sugarbush and Stowe a few years ago were comparable.  There are two differences. Sugarbush‘s vertical uphill per hour of 24,000 plus is significantly more than Stowe currently and the 4,000 acres of potential skiing and riding at Sugarbush (including Slidebrook) spreads people out better When everything is open.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

I also figure that there arent many air bbs in the area or hotels. Stowe is loaded with them. Plus the drive to stowe is easier. Wednesday at Stowe was pretty busy in the morning..powder day. Yesterday at SB was totaly empty...powder day. 
Im out tomorrow..i think it will be a bit of a zoo either place.


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## WinS (Mar 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I also figure that there arent many air bbs in the area or hotels. Stowe is loaded with them. Plus the drive to stowe is easier. Wednesday at Stowe was pretty busy in the morning..powder day. Yesterday at SB was totaly empty...powder day.
> Im out tomorrow..i think it will be a bit of a zoo either place.


Actually there are now hundreds of Air B&Bs in the Valley now.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

Where..are all the people then??
Just weekenders?
Stowe is pretty busy weekdays.


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## ducky (Mar 4, 2022)

Seemed busy to me. Lot was full.

Went to MRG for the afternoon following the morning on HG and CR. Surprisingly better conditions, less ice and even the groomed was excellent. Totally different vibe and $8 cheeseburgers cooked to order.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 4, 2022)

Have to get over there at least once this season


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## urungus (Mar 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So I noticed quite a few trail signs on CR today where the top one was "erased". In addition to the ones you mentioned, this was also the case at the intersection of CR/Lower CR/Troll Road/Cotillion (Cotillion I believe is supposed to be the top one on that particular trail sign...and it was all black) and the case as well at the intersection of Middle Earth and Troll Road (ME is the top one there and was simply all black).


I noticed that too today … I think it is vandalism.  Seems like there was a mini AZ convention at Castlerock today ... I even summoned up the courage to “ski” (using the term loosely) down Rumble for the first time, that is a toughie !  Thankfully the upper “rock garden” entrance was roped off…


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## urungus (Mar 4, 2022)

A few more photos from today



Note vandalism on top trail sign:


A look up at the roped off “Rock Garden“ entrance to Rumble:


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## urungus (Mar 4, 2022)




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## urungus (Mar 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That hut is labeled on the trail map as an actual "warming hut", so I would assume that means it should be open to the public (and I swear I've been in there before several years ago). It is possible that due to the small size it was temporarily closed to the public due to COVID.


You are correct sir, I asked a ski patroller today and he confirmed the Castlerock warming hut is temporarily closed to the public due to Covid, though he did mention they were being less strict these days, whatever that means.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 4, 2022)

ducky said:


> Seemed busy to me. Lot was full.
> 
> Went to MRG for the afternoon following the morning on HG and CR. Surprisingly better conditions, less ice and even the groomed was excellent. Totally different vibe and $8 cheeseburgers cooked to order.
> 
> View attachment 53494


Ummm, confused… burgers tho sound right!


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Where..are all the people then??
> Just weekenders?
> Stowe is pretty busy weekdays.


Sssssshhhhh!


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## cdskier (Mar 4, 2022)

urungus said:


> I noticed that too today … I think it is vandalism.  Seems like there was a mini AZ convention at Castlerock today ... I even summoned up the courage to “ski” (using the term loosely) down Rumble for the first time, that is a toughie !  Thankfully the upper “rock garden” entrance was roped off…


Hah. CR was definitely the place to be today. I knew I wanted to get over there before the weekend crowds made it any thinner...

Congrats on hitting Rumble for the first time. I'm pretty picky about conditions to ski a trail like that. Last time I skied it was a weekday when it was dumping snow a couple years ago.



ducky said:


> Seemed busy to me. Lot was full.



Busy? Really? Seemed pretty empty to me for a Friday. Admittedly I walked over from my condo, so I have no idea what the lot looked like. But I pretty much skied onto every lift I took this afternoon. If the lot was full, I have no idea where everyone was hiding. I did peak at the webcams several times this morning too while I was working and thought even then it seemed less crowded than some other Fridays that I remember.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 5, 2022)

Skied lp yesterday and Mellon today.  Back to back powder days.  Key was to avoid the open rock slabs.  Upper fis had a great line skiers left.  Black diamond was excellent.  Exterminator woods still had plenty of snow when I left it this afternoon.  Even lower fis was good although it will not survive tomorrow.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 5, 2022)

Still havent gotten over to Ellen yet...


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Still havent gotten over to Ellen yet...


So much to learn grasshopper…. Hit the lodge for burgers and beer… I‘ve been looking for you… still owe you that beer!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 5, 2022)

Ill get there...maybe friday.
I hear...schnozzle coming down outside now


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## HowieT2 (Mar 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ill get there...maybe friday.
> I hear...schnozzle coming down outside now


Can confirm.  Smattering of tiny droplets on the windshield.  32f.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 6, 2022)

Spent a bit of time and a whole stick of ptex after fridays CR day


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 6, 2022)

Might hit jay tomorrow.
Looks like the only place that may get snow all day..Hope the KS effect works there..


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## cdskier (Mar 6, 2022)

This afternoon was like a beautiful April spring day on the mountain...unfortunately it is only early March. Glad I waited until the afternoon to go out. Not a fan of seeing all those thin and bare spots at this point in the season though. We need some serious March dumps (and I don't see any sign of them yet)...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 6, 2022)

Im going to JH the 19th...dont worry.


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 6, 2022)

Echoing what CD said, this afternoon was wonderful spring-like skiing...although a month early. The rain departed, the sun came out and it was a blue bird afternoon. Stein's was the most fun in, like, forever. Huge wales, soft bumps on the edges, even the scraped off back sides of the wales were soft and edgeable. I think we lapped it half a dozen times. A rather dramatic snow loss over the last day and a half. Lots of brown showing in CR, top of north lynx and most of the natural snow trails. Birdland was quite good, even Lower Birdland, surprisingly. It was spotty but if you could stay out of the troughs the snow was good.
BTW,  High Fives was there today. There were some athletes on sit-skis absolutely ripping it. I was amazed.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Echoing what CD said, this afternoon was wonderful spring-like skiing...although a month early. The rain departed, the sun came out and it was a blue bird afternoon. Stein's was the most fun in, like, forever. Huge wales, soft bumps on the edges, even the scraped off back sides of the wales were soft and edgeable. I think we lapped it half a dozen times. A rather dramatic snow loss over the last day and a half. Lots of brown showing in CR, top of north lynx and most of the natural snow trails. Birdland was quite good, even Lower Birdland, surprisingly. It was spotty but if you could stay out of the troughs the snow was good.
> BTW,  High Fives was there today. There were some athletes on sit-skis absolutely ripping it. I was amazed.



Yes...the whale hunting on Stein's was definitely the pick of the day! And yes, those athletes on the sit-skis were incredible.


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## Lotso (Mar 7, 2022)

Tough hit to snowpack yesterday and last night, and who knows what today's mess will do...with no more snowmaking or big storms on the horizon it will be a short spring...enjoyed it yesterday afternoon, for sure!


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

My season zigged when it should have zagged.  I took a fall on the last day of a President's weekend trip to Vail that resulted in a small tear of the right calf.  It's not nearly as bad as the tear to the left calf from two years ago that ended my season.  Doc says I can ski this upcoming weekend.  It's still a bit sore, but I'm walking fine.  Just don't know if I want to drive 5.5 hours each way for crappy conditions or give it another week to heal.  I'm gonna hold off on any decisions until the last minute (my wife loves when I do that...it makes it so easy for her to make social plans for us.  LOL.)  I'm kinda bummed that I didn't head up this past weekend for Friday and Saturday which looked pretty great.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 7, 2022)

How’s that slug effect   Doin  up at jay 
Cough


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 7, 2022)

Went to stowe..held the rain off at least..
Nit a bad day so far for what is open


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## djd66 (Mar 7, 2022)

Once the sun came out yesterday, the skiing was very good.  Steins was pick of the day for sure,...right hand side of the trail was like skiing in a half-pipe.  I have to say, it was very depressing to see how much melt had taken place.  I think there will not be much natural left if we don't get a dump soon.  I truly hate this time of year when things start to recede.  There is nothing more ugly than when things get muddy.  Lets hope for some March snow!


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

Looks like there were a good number of us from this forum out there yesterday afternoon!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 7, 2022)

Trying to forget..i wasnt there...
But...its still only march 7...more to come.
Remember last seasons late dump


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## HowieT2 (Mar 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like there were a good number of us from this forum out there yesterday afternoon!


I was there in the morning unfortunately.  got soaked and bid a hasty retreat.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 7, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I was there in the morning unfortunately.  got soaked and bid a hasty retreat.


Gotta say I wish we hung around for the afternoon, sounds wonderful, especially after spending the day in Slidebrook on Saturday, which was close to perfect! Buggered my board a bit, but so worth it! Really wonder if that was the last day of the year for those runs. waaaaah!

On a whole other thought - I love all the webcams that were installed this year and made available for us to look at. It's a fantastic thing, allowing me to live check lift lines while riding and live vicariously thru them when not there, especially the ones that scan the mountains.
I don't know if other ski areas do this, but more should as it really enriches the ski experience in a positive way. Who ever decided to expand the webcam options deserves a beer!


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## Los (Mar 7, 2022)

It’s hard to read this as anything other than, “That’s a wrap folks - winter’s over!”


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## slatham (Mar 7, 2022)

Los said:


> It’s hard to read this as anything other than, “That’s a wrap folks - winter’s over!”



I feel much better now, based on his overall accuracy this winter.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 7, 2022)




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## hovercraft (Mar 7, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Gotta say I wish we hung around for the afternoon, sounds wonderful, especially after spending the day in Slidebrook on Saturday, which was close to perfect! Buggered my board a bit, but so worth it! Really wonder if that was the last day of the year for those runs. waaaaah!
> 
> On a whole other thought - I love all the webcams that were installed this year and made available for us to look at. It's a fantastic thing, allowing me to live check lift lines while riding and live vicariously thru them when not there, especially the ones that scan the mountains.
> I don't know if other ski areas do this, but more should as it really enriches the ski experience in a positive way. Who ever decided to expand the webcam options deserves a beer!


Don’t say that shredmonkey more white magic is on it’s way,


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I was there in the morning unfortunately.  got soaked and bid a hasty retreat.



I woke up, looked at the radar and what was coming, and said "Nope...I'll wait it out and see what happens this afternoon".


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## rocks860 (Mar 7, 2022)

I still have a quad pack ticket left so I was thinking about coming up Sunday and staying Sunday night to ski Monday. I know it’s been absurdly warm down here in ct so I’m wondering if it’s been just as bad up there? I don’t foresee finding a better Time than now this season


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## NYSnowflake (Mar 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like there were a good number of us from this forum out there yesterday afternoon!


I was out there yesterday AM and PM! The soft corduroy on Rim Run and Joe’s Cruiser was awesome from 8-11am. We were on summit lift in high winds, zero visibility fog, and rain/icepellets but the snow was fantastic on Rim Run and Looking Good so we kept doing laps. Went back to condo to change into dry clothes and eat lunch, then skied LP in the sunshine all afternoon. Good day!


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## Hawk (Mar 7, 2022)

Back from a week at Squaw (Palasades Tahoe) and Alpine meadows.  Really fun week and enjoyed a mix of 50's and then snow.  It is really cool to end the day doing a KT-22 and then rolling down to the Chamois.  Saw a few celebs and tipped many beers.

Sounds like the season is in trouble.  I'll be back next weekend to see the damage.  Hopefully we will get some improved weather to end it up.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 7, 2022)

At 830 pm Heavy rain snd high winds  50 degrees   Not good


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## TSQURD (Mar 7, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> At 830 pm Heavy rain snd high winds  50 degrees   Not good


Understatement.  Its settled down a but now, but 5 minutes ago the house was shaking and it looked like a white out between the wind and rain.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 8, 2022)

Wind was howling...the gods are angry...at something..


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## djd66 (Mar 8, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Wind was howling...the gods are angry...at something..


Maybe pissed off at Vail


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## Smellytele (Mar 8, 2022)

Weather going into the weekend looking better…

Friday Night
Snow, mainly after 1am. Low around 26. Southeast wind 11 to 16 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%.
Saturday
Snow. High near 32. East wind 14 to 17 mph becoming northwest in the afternoon. Chance of precipitation is 90%.
Saturday Night
A 40 percent chance of snow before 1am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 10. Blustery, with a northwest wind 17 to 22 mph, with gusts as high as 34 mph.


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## hovercraft (Mar 8, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Weather going into the weekend looking better…
> 
> Friday Night
> Snow, mainly after 1am. Low around 26. Southeast wind 11 to 16 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%.
> ...


I am seeing rain on Saturday warm in the morning turning over to snow early evening getting cold and high winds at the ridge.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 8, 2022)

Snowing at the Bush


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Snowing at the BushView attachment 53532



Dust on top of bare ground...exactly what we needed


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## djd66 (Mar 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Dust on top of bare ground...exactly what we needed


at least it got rid of the ugly


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## djd66 (Mar 8, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I am seeing rain on Saturday warm in the morning turning over to snow early evening getting cold and high winds at the ridge.


I think Smelly is looking at National Weather Service,... which is what I go by - especially if they are forecasting what I want to see!





__





						National Weather Service
					






					forecast.weather.gov


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 8, 2022)

def looks like snow. also looks like fun driving friday late night into Saturday. wheel to the storm and fly.


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2022)

djd66 said:


> at least it got rid of the ugly



Yea, at least now it "looks" more like winter when I look out my window. Still snowing...looked like it was going to taper off an hour or so ago, but picked back up again.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 8, 2022)

And..1 and done...then went to stowe..lasted 5 runs...
Yup..we need snow


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## HowieT2 (Mar 8, 2022)

Is This the End of the Trail Map?
					

At ski resorts around the country, the familiar paper map is disappearing, as mountains push skiers to use apps and other digital resources. But some skiers are pushing back.




					www.nytimes.com


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## rocks860 (Mar 8, 2022)

Praying for some snow. Staying at the waitsfield inn Sunday night then skiing Monday


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## WinS (Mar 9, 2022)

Don’t worry. It snowed 10” overnight in Solitude and I am bringing  the snow home.  Ran into a score of Sugarbush skiers during my two week Western Trip. Great fun to catch up with Amber Broadway and Gerry Nooney here at Solitude. They are creating a very nice vibe and they have some very nice terrain.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 9, 2022)

Bring it...


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## Los (Mar 9, 2022)

My shot-in-the-dark attempt to trade SB vouchers for killington vouchers failed miserably. Oh well. Happy to give them away. Let me know if you’d like one or more (I have at least 5). Although if you’re reading this thread you probably already have a pass!


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## hovercraft (Mar 9, 2022)

Los said:


> My shot-in-the-dark attempt to trade SB vouchers for killington vouchers failed miserably. Oh well. Happy to give them away. Let me know if you’d like one or more (I have at least 5). Although if you’re reading this thread you probably already have a pass!


Sent you a message, thanks


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## urungus (Mar 9, 2022)

Los said:


> My shot-in-the-dark attempt to trade SB vouchers for killington vouchers failed miserably. Oh well. Happy to give them away. Let me know if you’d like one or more (I have at least 5). Although if you’re reading this thread you probably already have a pass!


Sent you a PM, thanks


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## Los (Mar 9, 2022)

Los said:


> My shot-in-the-dark attempt to trade SB vouchers for killington vouchers failed miserably. Oh well. Happy to give them away. Let me know if you’d like one or more (I have at least 5). Although if you’re reading this thread you probably already have a pass!


Vouchers are claimed! I’ll get back to everyone who messaged me.


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2022)

Winter Storm Watch is up for Friday night and Saturday.  We are in the 12-18" band in the mountains looks like.  Most of it will fall during the day Saturday.  Doesn't look like much on the ground for Sat morning.  Just bad driving.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

yea, i cancelled my white river junction hotel and splurged for a friday to sunday stay at the 1824 house in waitsfield. this is so much more expensive than i am comfortable with. but would rather spend $600 than wind up in a fucking ditch. driving from white river junction to sugarbush at 7 AM and back at 4 PM both sound fucking ditchy to me.


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## NYDB (Mar 10, 2022)

Full gourmet breakfast tho


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Full gourmet breakfast tho



lol i saw this and it made me feel ever so slightly better about the splurge. the food looks super legit.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 10, 2022)

stuff yourself full of $300 worth of breakfast each day


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, i cancelled my white river junction hotel and splurged for a friday to sunday stay at the 1824 house in waitsfield. this is so much more expensive than i am comfortable with. but would rather spend $600 than wind up in a fucking ditch. driving from white river junction to sugarbush at 7 AM and back at 4 PM both sound fucking ditchy to me.


Simply driving back down to Waitsfield at 4PM on Saturday could be an adventure!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Simply driving back down to Waitsfield at 4PM on Saturday could be an adventure!



perhaps safer to just get ripping drunk at castlerock pub and drive down at 8 PM


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## rocks860 (Mar 10, 2022)

Well feeling better about my decision to go up this weekend. Won’t be there for the actual storm but I’ll be skiing Monday


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2022)

heading up this afternoon.  I'm pumped.  no whammies.


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2022)

Us too Howie.  maybe we will see you.


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## TSQURD (Mar 10, 2022)

You may be a little less pumped when you see the damage from earlier this week. Only 60% open now. Natural trails are basically rock & ice flows.  Going to need more than a few hours of snow Sat AM to get any more terrain open.  Expecting a lot of people with limited terrain to disperse everyone


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2022)

It will be fine.  You don't know what we are capable of.    Silly skiing is a thing here at sugarbush.


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## cdskier (Mar 10, 2022)

I think people should wait to come up. Leave the mountain and new snow to the people already up here


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## Zand (Mar 10, 2022)

Black Diamond, Upper FIS, Exterminator, and Bravo are all listed as open so theres some hope for the natural stuff I'd say. Really just depends on the totals...hopefully the 18" comes into play.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Us too Howie.  maybe we will see you.


I'll ping you to ski tomorrow.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 10, 2022)

TSQURD said:


> You may be a little less pumped when you see the damage from earlier this week. Only 60% open now. Natural trails are basically rock & ice flows.  Going to need more than a few hours of snow Sat AM to get any more terrain open.  Expecting a lot of people with limited terrain to disperse everyone


well aware of what the current situation is, but I'm prepared to take one for the team


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

i will ski 18" of fresh on top of jagged rocks. my skis have seen worse. 

i also just pulled the trigger on fischer 102 FRs so i can fucking trash my black crows if i want to.


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## MidnightJester (Mar 10, 2022)

What about wInd holds on Lifts from this storm at the mountains? I see possible 30mph winds and 50mph gusts on Sat and 25mph+ gusts on Sunday. No idea on direction and timing of the winds with the mountains


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2022)

Yup too much wind, not enough snow lots of rock and Ice.  I think this storm should be a black out day for pretty much everyone.  Do not come up please.  ;-)


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 10, 2022)

Ill be up there...figure stowe will be an all time shitshow in every aspect. The one way in and out..wind holds dump 100000000 people on the triple...
I was at sb monday...saw the damage..going to do some recon tomorrow.


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## MidnightJester (Mar 10, 2022)

lol Hahahhahaha. Heard there could be no plows and a outbreak of Covid too.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 10, 2022)

Lions and tigers and bears....


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## Hawk (Mar 10, 2022)

Oh my


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## djd66 (Mar 10, 2022)

Zand said:


> Black Diamond, Upper FIS, Exterminator, and Bravo are all listed as open so theres some hope for the natural stuff I'd say. Really just depends on the totals...hopefully the 18" comes into play.


Last weekend upper FIS and Exterminator looked like complete shit,... (i did not ski them,... just looked at all the exposed rocks)  I hate to see what it looks like after all the rain.  18" will definitely help, I would just ski knowing there is not much base underneath.


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## TSQURD (Mar 10, 2022)

Hawk said:


> It will be fine.  You don't know what we are capable of.    Silly skiing is a thing here at sugarbush.


For frame of reference, we usually ski 60+ days at SB each season, I would consider myself a proud member of the silly skier club & my skis have the scars to prove it. Also have season passes at MRG.

As an example of the type of skiing we enjoy, the attached photo was taken MRG toward the end of last season on a day that was an absolute hoot.  Conditions this week not so much of a hoot. YMMV.


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## mikec142 (Mar 10, 2022)

Pulled an audible.  Was planning to drive up tomorrow to get ahead of the storm.  Wanted to stay in the MRV preferably close to the mountain.  As of noon today there was a grand total of 1 room available within 20 minutes of SB.  I was on the phone with a good friend who lives in Telluride.  He said I bet that room costs close to what it would cost to fly to Telluride.  He was right so I'm heading out there tomorrow.  It's so incredibly unlike me to do something like this.


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## pinnoke (Mar 10, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Pulled an audible.  Was planning to drive up tomorrow to get ahead of the storm.  Wanted to stay in the MRV preferably close to the mountain.  As of noon today there was a grand total of 1 room available within 20 minutes of SB.  I was on the phone with a good friend who lives in Telluride.  He said I bet that room costs close to what it would cost to fly to Telluride.  He was right so I'm heading out there tomorrow.  It's so incredibly unlike me to do something like this.


WITH AGE COMES WISDOM!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 10, 2022)




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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Pulled an audible.  Was planning to drive up tomorrow to get ahead of the storm.  Wanted to stay in the MRV preferably close to the mountain.  As of noon today there was a grand total of 1 room available within 20 minutes of SB.  I was on the phone with a good friend who lives in Telluride.  He said I bet that room costs close to what it would cost to fly to Telluride.  He was right so I'm heading out there tomorrow.  It's so incredibly unlike me to do something like this.



lol good for you. i did the same thing yesterday but took the 2nd to last room in waitsfield for $300 per night. if i could swing it with my girl and work i would have done what you did. have fun.

was the last room in waitsfield the bennington room at the 1824 inn? that was the only other thing left last night when i pulled my trigger.


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## crippity (Mar 11, 2022)

Strategy for Saturday to mitigate crowds/your preference:   opening bell start obviously:    start at north and stay there till afternoon then head south?    Start south and head to north at 11?  Stay at north all day?


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## Blurski (Mar 11, 2022)

New IKON price is out $979 with early discount, starting to slowly creeping up.


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## hovercraft (Mar 11, 2022)

Blurski said:


> New IKON price is out $979 with early discount, starting to slowly creeping up.


Thats a renewal price.


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## Blurski (Mar 11, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Thats a renewal price.


Correct, $100 more if you are not currently a IKON pass holder, still a great deal.


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## Blurski (Mar 11, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> What about wInd holds on Lifts from this storm at the mountains? I see possible 30mph winds and 50mph gusts on Sat and 25mph+ gusts on Sunday. No idea on direction and timing of the winds with the mountains


Wind starts WSW 6am shifts to NW by 8am & WNW late afternoon with gusts increasing from 25 - 45 by the end of the day.


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## mikec142 (Mar 11, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol good for you. i did the same thing yesterday but took the 2nd to last room in waitsfield for $300 per night. if i could swing it with my girl and work i would have done what you did. have fun.
> 
> was the last room in waitsfield the bennington room at the 1824 inn? that was the only other thing left last night when i pulled my trigger.


It was a room at the Mad River Inn.  I think it was called the Willoughby Room.


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## Los (Mar 11, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Wind starts WSW 6am shifts to NW by 8am & WNW late afternoon with gusts increasing from 25 - 45 by the end of the day.


Argh…and the projected snow accumulation has plummeted.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

Like they know.
At this point ..reading projections is a waste.
Its going to snow..a lot...that is all


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

Los said:


> Argh…and the projected snow accumulation has plummeted.



im still seeing a high end of about 18-20" at lincoln peak on weather.gov which is exactly what was forecast at 1 PM yesterday


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## slatham (Mar 11, 2022)

Don't think 18-20" is going to verify. Everything would need to go right. Current NWS is a strip of 12-18" on the spine, and from what I am reading the high end is a stretch. That said 12" would be fun to play in. The service I (and several ski areas follow) is not at 18".  Just an FYI......


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 11, 2022)

slatham said:


> Don't think 18-20" is going to verify. Everything would need to go right. Current NWS is a strip of 12-18" on the spine, and from what I am reading the high end is a stretch. That said 12" would be fun to play in. The service I (and several ski areas follow) is not at 18".  Just an FYI......


what service is that?


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## tumbler (Mar 11, 2022)

It's also going to be high water content to start but looks like temps drop throughout the day so hopefully it gets lighter as it goes.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

tumbler said:


> It's also going to be high water content to start but looks like temps drop throughout the day so hopefully it gets lighter as it goes.



blower on top of thick slop sounds great to me


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

tumbler said:


> It's also going to be high water content to start but looks like temps drop throughout the day so hopefully it gets lighter as it goes.


That's exactly what is needed to cover up the current mess out there...


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## WWF-VT (Mar 11, 2022)

crippity said:


> Strategy for Saturday to mitigate crowds/your preference:   opening bell start obviously:    start at north and stay there till afternoon then head south?    Start south and head to north at 11?  Stay at north all day?


Mt Ellen all day


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## Hawk (Mar 11, 2022)

Noaa thinks it is going to be a little more this moring than oringinal thought.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Noaa thinks it is going to be a little more this moring than oringinal thought.



nice that is also only thru 1 am sunday so it doesn't account for the back end at all. SCWB and skiology dork both report big upslope potential into sunday morning


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Debating on Bolton or SB for Sunday. Don’t think Jay will have more than Jet and Bonnie open.


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## Smellytele (Mar 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Debating on Bolton or SB for Sunday. Don’t think Jay will have more than Jet and Bonnie open.


With the west wind not sure what would be worse. It would blow right up Bolton


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> With the west wind not sure what would be worse. It would blow right up Bolton


Guess SB it is


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

my fancy breakfast doesnt start til 8!

thats bullshit for a ski town b'n'b where the lifts start at 8


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## slatham (Mar 11, 2022)

I follow Empire Weather, which provides forecasts for several ski areas. I also use Weatherbell. NWS has good info too and is of course free. Like the graphic above of snowfall. Also the discussions, the latest of which states "Snow totals now range from 7 to 14 inches across the region with the highest amount expected across the northwestern slopes of the Adirondack and Green Mountains."

If upslope can deliver Saturday night then thats how you get to 18"or so along the higher elevations of the spine of the Greens. Upslope is tough to forecast, and I don't trust Skiology TBH. The storm is moving fast which is a worry on higher amounts.

Winds could be a problem Sunday morning, but will also create so deep snow in certain places too.

Have fun.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

Well..Steins opened.
Noodeling around today. Just warm enough to soften things up a bit.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my fancy breakfast doesnt start til 8!
> 
> thats bullshit for a ski town b'n'b where the lifts start at 8


Hah...maybe the typical person that stays in the more expensive places doesn't get out for first chair.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Well..Steins opened.
> Noodeling around today. Just warm enough to soften things up a bit.


Going to head out in a little while for a few runs this afternoon to survey the damage before the storm.


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Well..Steins opened.
> Noodeling around today. Just warm enough to soften things up a bit.View attachment 53578


did they groom?


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

djd66 said:


> did they groom?


Yes, it was winched last night.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

steins looks pretty good rolled out.

i have been texting with the innkeepers about logistics and made a friendly suggestion of 7 am breakfast, we'll see if they bite.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> steins looks pretty good rolled out.
> 
> i have been texting with the innkeepers about logistics and made a friendly suggestion of 7 am breakfast, we'll see if they bite.


Shit for $300 a night I hope they’re receptive to a compromise.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 11, 2022)

Stil wont matter you’ll be300 people back un less you get there at 7


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

slatham said:


> I follow Empire Weather, which provides forecasts for several ski areas. I also use Weatherbell. NWS has good info too and is of course free. Like the graphic above of snowfall. Also the discussions, the latest of which states "Snow totals now range from 7 to 14 inches across the region with the highest amount expected across the northwestern slopes of the Adirondack and Green Mountains."
> 
> If upslope can deliver Saturday night then thats how you get to 18"or so along the higher elevations of the spine of the Greens. Upslope is tough to forecast, and I don't trust Skiology TBH. The storm is moving fast which is a worry on higher amounts.
> 
> ...



The latest forecast from Scott Braaten says 8-14" in NVT above 1500'. He expressed some concerns the other day with the forecasts other people were giving, and at least at this point, the latest model data seems to support Scott's concerns.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

Um...its starting to snow


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yes, it was winched last night.


I liked it how it was skiing on Sunday with the big mohawk down the middle.  Skiing the right hand side of the trail was like skiing in a half-pipe.  I know they eventually had to groom it and makes sense before a storm.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)




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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Slug again with the memes


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

im admittedly not familiar with friday traffic, but the super bravo cam looks pretty busy to me for 2 on a Friday. lots of people getting into position for the weekend i suppose. cant wait to get out of here. obnoxious 330-430 meeting on the calendar today.


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## slatham (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The latest forecast from Scott Braaten says 8-14" in NVT above 1500'. He expressed some concerns the other day with the forecasts other people were giving, and at least at this point, the latest model data seems to support Scott's concerns.


Thank you, had not heard of him. Just read his noon update and he is consistent with what I have seen on models and heard from pro mets. A good 10-14" storm.


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## brandt_cant_watch (Mar 11, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my fancy breakfast doesnt start til 8!
> 
> thats bullshit for a ski town b'n'b where the lifts start at 8


My gf and I stayed at another B&B in the valley. The breakfast aspect felt obligatory and I have to admit it was a little awkward when we rushed out at 7am Sat to Paradise Provisions instead. We stayed for the breakfast on Sunday and didn't get our first run until 10ish.

That being said, the place was fantastic and will definitely go back...just not on a powder hound weekend.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

No lines at all today..was there open till 1ish.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im admittedly not familiar with friday traffic, but the super bravo cam looks pretty busy to me for 2 on a Friday. lots of people getting into position for the weekend i suppose. cant wait to get out of here. obnoxious 330-430 meeting on the calendar today.


I've skied most Friday afternoons for the past month and a half. This was pretty average. 

The damage to the trails though is worse than I expected (and I've been up here and seen the weather all week...just haven't been on the mountain). The snow-loss was about what I expected, but the bigger issue is the condition of the "base" that is left on trails. I don't know if I've ever seen so much ice and ice flows up here on trails. I'm increasingly concerned that tomorrow is going to be a bit of a shit-show with not enough terrain to spread people around. I think it will take a while before too many ropes can drop.

On the plus side, Stein's was definitely the trail of the afternoon. Some real nice soft snow on it in many spots. The grooming was a little strange though...there's a pretty substantial "hump" left in the middle. They usually flatten that out a bit more and push more to the sides.



Kingslug20 said:


> No lines at all today..was there open till 1ish.


Must've just missed you...again! I got out there at 1:15.



slatham said:


> Thank you, had not heard of him. Just read his noon update and he is consistent with what I have seen on models and heard from pro mets. A good 10-14" storm.


He at one point was a pro met that focused specifically on creating ski forecasts for several New England TV stations (I think he may do something else as his day job now, but not entirely sure). N-VT is really his main focus area and specialty. He also worked for Stowe at one point in the past as a weather consultant (among other things including being their snow reporter for several years). He's not one to hype up storms unless it is really justified (unlike some other Internet weather people).


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

Yup..steins was a big hump in the middle..with a lot if people on it...you can pick up speed on that thing..not a goid thing with people zipping all over it..but still fun!
I hope people..who dont know whats beneath them take it easy when the snow just covers the crap..patrol will be busy.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

We skied the same thing as thst at stowe yesterday..beginning of chin clip up to the bail out..why the fuck they opened it is a mystery...


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## ducky (Mar 11, 2022)

vtcng.comResort-bound traffic jams lead to Epic grumblingThe face of Mount Mansfield features the famed Front Four forming long white lines down the fall line. Below that, long lines of steel and aluminum, bumper to bumper.

Some mentions of SB here.


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## Los (Mar 11, 2022)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen all day


Unfortunately not as solid a strategy as it used to be… much more crowded now with ikon…


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## Los (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'm increasingly concerned that tomorrow is going to be a bit of a shit-show with not enough terrain to spread people around.


Yep.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> View attachment 53583


Ski trail…or..luge


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## slatham (Mar 11, 2022)

Jesus people should be 6” by noon and snowing 1”+ per hour. If you can’t find stashes at Ellen (or Lincoln for that matter) and have the skills to pounce under those circumstances your in the wrong sport.


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## djd66 (Mar 11, 2022)

slatham said:


> Jesus people should be 6” by noon and snowing 1”+ per hour. If you can’t find stashes at Ellen (or Lincoln for that matter) and have the skills to pounce under those circumstances your in the wrong sport.


I agree, I think the wet snow will bond to a lot of those frozen icefalls.  14” of snow will do wonders for this place and for me!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 11, 2022)

I thought the on piste conditions were surprisingly ok today.  Not good by any means but  Steins and lower organ grinder skied well.  It’s a shame there isn’t enough base to groom out some of the ice moguls prior to this snowfall.  Will have to make do.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2022)

With the snow just beginning here, I’ve opted in for the breakfast today


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 12, 2022)

Been a long time since I posted here, however I have a few unused Quad Pack Tickets for sale. Message me for details.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> With the snow just beginning here, I’ve opted in for the breakfast today


Yup, just finished our eggs and croissants


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## NYDB (Mar 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> With the snow just beginning here, I’ve opted in for the breakfast today


I'm a bit worried for you that you'll be too spoiled for the rutland comfort inn or manchester econo lodge after this weekend.  Don't get hooked on that high thread count and gourmet breakfast.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Heavens gate chair is..kaput...the rowds have arrived


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heavens gate chair is..kaput...the rowds have arrived


Ski patrol is going to have a fun day


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Million people on steins..yes they will


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heavens gate chair is..kaput...the rowds have arrived


Northridge too


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## NYSnowflake (Mar 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Million people on steins..yes they will


Haha even I was on Stein’s this AM! Unsupervised/Unescorted . First run on Birch at 9am was absolutely glorious though!


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## slatham (Mar 12, 2022)

Even with NR down I see no lines on GMX via the CAM at 10:55am.

Bravo and VH a mess.

BUT HG is now loading.

Have fun.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Interesting conditions..soft this morning..temps dropped..base froze..but its dumping..getying better quick
Sitging in rumbles watching it accumulate..my wife needs food...
I..would not be in here..i don't need food..its a cliff bar day


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## Zand (Mar 12, 2022)

Already over to snow 200 miles south of Sugarbush. Not sure if the cold trend will be a positive or negative as far as total QPF in the north.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heavens gate chair is..kaput...the rowds have arrived


It has been up and down like crazy. I lucked out earlier and got one of the first few chairs after it started loading after it reopened the first time. It was ski right on and no one yet realized it was open again. Ripcord and Lower Ripcord were pretty sweet with the powder that accumulated while it was hold. Of course it was back on hold again before I even made it down RC!

That wind is really starting to pick up though...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2022)

Heavens gate came back online and me and my buddies rode it ski on 4 runs before it went down again

Legit face shots today

Photo is paradise. I was maybe third down after they opened it


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Then bravo died and i called it.


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## Hawk (Mar 12, 2022)

We were right behind you I guess.  Skied an untracked Spills.  Wind is really rippin now.  Everything closed except Gate house.  Hopefully it stays snowing all night.  Tomorrow could be good.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Wind was howling...


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## teleo (Mar 12, 2022)

Was on bravo just before it closed.  Chairs swinging in the wind.  Same for VH. Rare to see both shut.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 13, 2022)

Cast rock opens tomorrow 
Is  heavens gate going too ? Hmm 
Great day.  going to rip it up all week 
Might even go to k this week


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## Zand (Mar 13, 2022)

Just got up here...at North for the afternoon. Cars parked all the way down to German Flats but I was able to get into row 1. No lines. Let's go!


----------



## cdskier (Mar 13, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> Cast rock opens tomorrow
> Is  heavens gate going too ? Hmm
> Great day.  going to rip it up all week
> Might even go to k this week


Looks like HG just re-opened (again!). I managed to get one of the handful of chairs that loaded the 2nd time it opened this morning (a bit after 11 I think it was). Didn't even make it all the way up before they closed it again...but that run down Paradise was absolutely one of my all time best runs. That powder was DEEP up there. Incredible.


----------



## rocks860 (Mar 13, 2022)

I’ll be out there tomorrow so hopefully there’s still some leftovers with heavens gate being down for part of the day


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2022)

I’ll be there tomorrow as well.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like HG just re-opened (again!). I managed to get one of the handful of chairs that loaded the 2nd time it opened this morning (a bit after 11 I think it was). Didn't even make it all the way up before they closed it again...but that run down Paradise was absolutely one of my all time best runs. That powder was DEEP up there. Incredible.


It feels good to be so completely destroyed. 6 laps on HG was a gift this afternoon! They got that sucker running like a swiss watch now. Best pow runs of the season up there for me today. A 3rd beer will put me on tilt! Looking forward to tomorrow


----------



## Zand (Mar 13, 2022)

Only managed 5 runs in the 2 hours I was there but it was a nice warm-up for the week. Started on FIS which had some scratchiness under foot but more than doable. Into some low angle woods off Lookin Good which were in nice shape.

Next 4 runs were all mixes of Exterminator/Bravo and the surrounding woods. High angle stuff isnt great over there, but decently doable. Nice and soft in the low angle stuff. We're back at that stage where "one more storm" would make things pristine but I don't think it's in the cards.

Based on the pics and totals from Jay, I'm glad I'm heading up there for two days. It also sounds like South is a little better than North, so that's where I'll be Wednesday on the way home.

Overall, a much needed shot in the arm to at least get things open again. Ready for a great week!


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## Lotso (Mar 13, 2022)

That pic of Exterm is impressive!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2022)

First few runs at Lincoln peak today were dreamy. I didn’t make it up HG today but still skied plenty of great pow


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## Zand (Mar 13, 2022)

Did you hop into any of the woods off Valley House?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2022)

Zand said:


> Did you hop into any of the woods off Valley House?



Steins woods to bail from steins which was just a bit scratchier than I wanted it to be. A few good turns then a nasty snake that took my ski off.

Xmas tree woods, good up top but I bailed when it got thicker and thwackier. But it’s skiable and skied in for you

Eden, all good, let er rip

Run of the season was first tracks down the groomed part of fling into the ungroomed trough skiers right, to the right side of snowball. from the snowball curve to valley house chair I had consistent untracked knee deep pow and face shots the entire way down uninterrupted

Great first tracks down twist, but more jerky due to the underlying ice bumps


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2022)

Paradise lived up to its name...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 13, 2022)

Looks deep..like last week


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 13, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Looks deep..like last week


Way deeper than last week.


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## hovercraft (Mar 13, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Way deeper than last week.


It would have to be!!!!


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## Newpylong (Mar 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Paradise lived up to its name...
> 
> View attachment 53616
> 
> View attachment 53617



What's with high vis guy? Lol


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> What's with high vis guy? Lol


Lol. I have no idea. I didn’t even realize he was in my shot until I looked at the photos from my camera tonight.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 14, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> It would have to be!!!!


I went 3rd and 4th
3rd was a good powder day.
Paradise was awesome..
4th cr chair opened..pretty deep.


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## Blurski (Mar 14, 2022)

Yesterday was a good day to be a Patroller, they seemed to be lapping the CR on the lift.  They put allot of time in and yesterday it payed of for at least some of them.


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## Hawk (Mar 14, 2022)

I was really early on Sunday morning.  First chair on Bravo for an untracked Domino Chute/Orgagrinder and then an untracked Steins.  Both were really awsome.  Obviously more snow on the ungroomed Steins but you had to do medium radiius turns or you went down to that icy bottom.
Ended up on the 3rd Chair on HG at 8:00am.  Lift stopped 1/2 way up and then continued to stop and start and they stopped loading.  There might have been 40 people total on the chair.  Skied the right side of Ripchord all to myself.  The wind deposited about 12" to 18" and maybe more once you got down to the spillsville area.  Untracked perfect run all the way down.  Maybe the best run of the year for me.  Things got chopped up quick.  I hear the tails of skiing in the woods.  I tried a few places but hit all kinds of shit.  I have one serious injury under my belt from skiing woods too early.  That is a card that I am most hesitant to play these days.


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## rocks860 (Mar 14, 2022)

had to hit paradise this morning as I missed it when I was up in February. Was not disappointed that’s for sure.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2022)

Great weekend.  made peace with winter for me.  now ready for spring skiing.  for the record, 8 powder days, 4 at SB 4 in BC which is about my average.
storm skiing saturday.  got stuck on heavens gate with Hawk and then went over to mellon.  cars parked as far as the eye could ski but not crowded.
sunday morning got to LP before 9 and still had to park all the way at the back behind the compressor.  Even with heavens gate and castlerock down it didnt seem crowded.  At the height before lunch the line at bravo was about 10 minutes.  my theory is, there a lot of ikon pass holders skiing but few day trippers, no buses, and those are the folks who don't know wtf theyre doing and make things chaotic.
anyway, caught HG when it started up around 2 pm.  paradise was sublime except for the dickhead who turned into me as I was going down the headwall skiers left.  slightly sprained ankle but otherwise fine.  Paradise woods was great.  lot of snow there.
can't think of a reason they didnt run castlerock yesterday.  lift was spinning the whole day.  weak sauce.

little birdie told me they're looking at replacing the nrx summer '23.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Great weekend.  made peace with winter for me.  now ready for spring skiing.  for the record, 8 powder days, 4 at SB 4 in BC which is about my average.
> storm skiing saturday.  got stuck on heavens gate with Hawk and then went over to mellon.  cars parked as far as the eye could ski but not crowded.
> sunday morning got to LP before 9 and still had to park all the way at the back behind the compressor.  Even with heavens gate and castlerock down it didnt seem crowded.  At the height before lunch the line at bravo was about 10 minutes.  my theory is, there a lot of ikon pass holders skiing but few day trippers, no buses, and those are the folks who don't know wtf theyre doing and make things chaotic.
> anyway, caught HG when it started up around 2 pm.  paradise was sublime except for the dickhead who turned into me as I was going down the headwall skiers left.  slightly sprained ankle but otherwise fine.  Paradise woods was great.  lot of snow there.
> ...



i was the 2nd to last chair to get stuck on Saturday morning on HG, so the second to last to unload. 

i reckon they didn't spin castlerock bc it would have gotten skied off so fast and been all jagged rock and caused a lot more work for patrol. patrol put some sexy lines down on castlerock run that you could see from bravo.

i left at like 1:15, bummed i missed heavens gate opening but always glad to get back to NYC area before dark. i like daylight savings


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I hear the tails of skiing in the woods.  I tried a few places but hit all kinds of shit.  I have one serious injury under my belt from skiing woods too early.  That is a card that I am most hesitant to play these days.


I tried a couple places as well and thought there was still quite a bit lurking that you had to be cautious (particularly lower down). I think Kusty earlier in this thread mentioned Eden was all good which is not at all what I saw. Very low elevation and I saw what it looked like before the storm so I wasn't surprised, but it was quite thin with a lot of obstacles barely hidden under the new snow. I even saw one kid in Eden literally get launched several feet when he hit something (he was fine, but it still shows that you couldn't just fly through Eden by any means).


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## HowieT2 (Mar 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I tried a couple places as well and thought there was still quite a bit lurking that you had to be cautious (particularly lower down). I think Kusty earlier in this thread mentioned Eden was all good which is not at all what I saw. Very low elevation and I saw what it looked like before the storm so I wasn't surprised, but it was quite thin with a lot of obstacles barely hidden under the new snow. I even saw one kid in Eden literally get launched several feet when he hit something (he was fine, but it still shows that you couldn't just fly through Eden by any means).


agreed.  there was even underlying funk up in paradise woods.  and I won't even discuss enchanted forest.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2022)

i found eden to be the most skiable of the three i checked out. i am very on the record of having a high tolerance for thin woods. steins was too steep and untracked and stuff was lurking everywhere. xmas tree was of a similar pitch but had been skied in and a savvy skier could pick his line. eden, being the least steep of the three and also pretty skied in by 1 PM when i got there, i found to be totally skiable with the completely normal stumps and rocks that are eastern tree skiing. i certainly let it rip thru eden without much concern. i also wasn't really moving thru untracked snow there tho


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i found eden to be the most skiable of the three i checked out. i am very on the record of having a high tolerance for thin woods. steins was too steep and untracked and stuff was lurking everywhere. xmas tree was of a similar pitch but had been skied in and a savvy skier could pick his line. eden, being the least steep of the three and also pretty skied in by 1 PM when i got there, i found to be totally skiable with the completely normal stumps and rocks that are eastern tree skiing. i certainly let it rip thru eden without much concern. i also wasn't really moving thru untracked snow there tho



Looks like I was in Eden around 10am...there was still a decent amount of untracked there that some people were skiing at that time. The fact that you weren't skiing the untracked is an important caveat (not that there should be much of that left by now if there was even much left by the time you were there at 1pm yesterday).


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 14, 2022)

Pretty funny seeing people waiting for the bus on German flats today talk about low elevation
Great day. Loved the vibe    but  the sun is strong already losing snow


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## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2022)

Today was a good day at the bush. Paradise still had some hidden pockets of fresh here and there. 
2 times in the morning tried to hit castlerock but lift kept having issues. Finally got on the lift around 12:30. Surprised how well it still skied. Hit lifeline and middle earth. Best snow on the mtn.


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## rocks860 (Mar 14, 2022)

I had a great day there. There was a ton of snow on paradise and skied castle rock run was really nice too. Called it a day around 2 because I had to drive back to ct but it was definitely worth the trip to use my last quad pack ticket


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## 1dog (Mar 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Today was a good day at the bush. Paradise still had some hidden pockets of fresh here and there.
> 2 times in the morning tried to hit castlerock but lift kept having issues. Finally got on the lift around 12:30. Surprised how well it still skied. Hit lifeline and middle earth. Best snow on the mtn.


Speaking of lifts - just back from an extended trip Big Sky, Grand Tarhgee, Brighton/Alta/Snowbird/Deer Valley - rode most if not all the lifts - and not once did we have a stall/stop 9-3 or 4 each day. ( other than a load/unload issues). I gotta believe some has to do with age, and engineers/mechanics, but a lot must have to be related to humidity- I know it kills my motorized, stored off season toys. More stops and halts than a resort needs. Western resorts gotta have same employee problems, so other than age, what else could be the difference?


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## shadyjay (Mar 15, 2022)

Rode Mt Ellen last Thursday and Lincoln Peak last Friday for the first time since 3/2019.  It was great getting turns again on some of my favorite runs at the mountain I called home for 10+ years.  Had a nice lunch at Walt's and got to enjoy the sun on the new GML deck (such an improvement!) and check out some live music.  Snow coverage I thought was better than what Killington had the day before.  There was some ice, but it was relatively manageable on the groomers.  Mt Ellen softened up nice on Thursday in the sun.  I headed to NY Friday afternoon to see more friends, so I missed out on the storm.  

Most likely won't make it up for the rest of the season, but hoping for a very snowy season 2022/23 so I can make it up again.


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## ducky (Mar 15, 2022)

Vail Resorts (Stowe) raises minimum wage at 37 resorts to $20 along with other benefits.









						Vail Resorts Unveils New Company Direction That Focuses on Employees - SnowBrains
					

Vail Resorts CEO Kirsten Lynch sent a letter to all employees yesterday, laying out a "pivotal shift in our company’s direction with a focus




					snowbrains.com


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## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2022)

ducky said:


> Vail Resorts (Stowe) raises minimum wage at 37 resorts to $20 along with other benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the wrong thread?


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## ducky (Mar 16, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> In the wrong thread?


No, this relates to Sugarbush raising their minimum wage to be competitive in hiring. SB currently offers $15. But I think you know that.


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## Zand (Mar 16, 2022)

Middle Earth ❤


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 16, 2022)

Idle curiosity. How was Middle Earth on Sunday? I made it over to CR for one lap and was split between ME and CRR. Did CRR to Cotillion which was great but I'm still curious about ME...


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## Zand (Mar 16, 2022)

Got a 3 hour session in at the Bush this afternoon...thats about all I could handle after 2 powder days at Jay. Full sunshine and temps into the 40s made for the most perfect of early spring days.

Started off with a few runs on Castlerock. Middle Earth was a lot of fun but definitely losing coverage fast in the rock covered sections. Rumble was an adventure but so much fun. Coverage was actually better than Middle Earth but still plenty of maneuvering to be done around the rock bands. The snow in the tree canopies above was raining down the whole way for added effect. CR had the best coverage and some fun soft bump lines as well. Be aware that the very bottom by the lift is pretty much totally melted out and you either have to ski over rocks or walk for a few feet.

Moved over to Heavens Gate for the rest of the afternoon. Started off with a corny Ripcord to get some wind in the face after getting all sweaty on Castlerock. Then made my way to Paradise which wasnt really corned up at all, still good packed powder in a lot of spots but also a lot more ice flow peeking through. Nice soft bumpline on Organgrinder led the way to Spillsville which was more slick than I expected. Obviously the sun can't really get to it but also not as much loose snow as Paradise. Real deep coverage there though, should last a while.

Was already getting worn out so took a phenomenal Upper Jester down to what I intended to be Spring Fling but got sucked into Steins. Not much softening on that and the icy base was poking through quite a bit. So went back up one more time and finished up the right way on the perfect corn of Spring Fling.

Heading home now but if youre in the area, get up here. 2 more days of this weather and the spring skiing is terrific.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2022)

glad you are getting to enjoy some good days zand


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

Zand rules the day!
That will be me tommorrow.


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## slatham (Mar 17, 2022)

Hate to spread rumors - though given my source this is true and thus not a rumor - anyone have any color on the personnel changes in the snowmaking department?


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## HowieT2 (Mar 17, 2022)

slatham said:


> Hate to spread rumors - though given my source this is true and thus not a rumor - anyone have any color on the personnel changes in the snowmaking department?


so what's the rumor/fact?


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

Yes what is the story?


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## slatham (Mar 17, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Yes what is the story?


Trying to tease out someone with FIRST hand knowledge - actually you were someone that I thought would know LOL......


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## cdskier (Mar 17, 2022)

slatham said:


> Trying to tease out someone with FIRST hand knowledge - actually you were someone that I thought would know LOL......



Spill the beans already!


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

Oh well, I will find out tonight.  Maybe


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

I heard about a departure but In my opinion that affects the golf course more than the snowmaking.  Maybe this is an oportunity to bring in new blood and get a new perspective for next year?


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## NYDB (Mar 17, 2022)

jeezus, just post the rumor.  it's the internet.  its not that big a deal.


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## skiur (Mar 17, 2022)

NYDB said:


> jeezus, just post the rumor.  it's the internet.  its not that big a deal.


Seriously, whats the point of even bringing it up if your not gonna say anything?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2022)

especially because like 25 people read this site. how many non posting lurkers can there really be?


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## WinS (Mar 17, 2022)

Mike Wing is retiring and moving back to Maine where he came from. We hired Mike from Sugarloaf over 15 years ago, and he has done a great job both managing grooming and snowmaking in the winter and serving as Golf Superintendent in the summer. There is a good team in both areas to carry on in my opinion.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 17, 2022)

And there ya go.


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## NYDB (Mar 17, 2022)

Scandalous


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## SkiTheEast (Mar 17, 2022)

Really insightful article on Mike Wing from the blog.  Hard to believe this was 10yrs ago since it reads like it's present day: https://blog.sugarbush.com/magazine/backstage-at-sugarbush/


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 17, 2022)

Good read..


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## Los (Mar 18, 2022)

I have a bunch of 50% off vouchers. If anyone would like one or more, please let me know.


----------



## Los (Mar 18, 2022)

WinS said:


> Mike Wing is retiring and moving back to Maine where he came from. We hired Mike from Sugarloaf over 15 years ago, and he has done a great job both managing grooming and snowmaking in the winter and serving as Golf Superintendent in the summer. There is a good team in both areas to carry on in my opinion.


And his son is a liftie and a good kid! He'll be missed.


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## mikec142 (Mar 18, 2022)

Saw that Castlerock is done for the season.  I'm really hoping for a late March surprise, otherwise my season may be done.


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## slatham (Mar 18, 2022)

And there you have it, thanks Win.

Hopefully they have some talent on the team that knows the details/oddities/kinks of the snowmaking system. 15 years of institutional knowledge of a system that requires that knowledge to be optimized is hard to replace.


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2022)

Skied ME this afternoon after work. Damn that snow is going fast. Tumbler will probably be closed by tomorrow (hanging on by a thread today). Black Diamond and FIS had some nice soft spring bumps...which admittedly you don't usually get to ski since ME often closes before you get the warm spring weather in April. So that was fun...


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2022)

Tumbler (one of the better sections):


Black Diamond:


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## HowieT2 (Mar 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Tumbler (one of the better sections):
> View attachment 53739
> 
> Black Diamond:
> ...


Can confirm.  I was at Lincoln peak.  Thankful I was able to enjoy a sunny warm day because it is going fast.  
150” just doesn’t cut it.  No two ways about it.


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Can confirm.  I was at Lincoln peak.  Thankful I was able to enjoy a sunny warm day because it is going fast.
> 150” just doesn’t cut it.  No two ways about it.



Especially when that 150" is coupled with multiple thaws and r*** events...


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## NYDB (Mar 19, 2022)

Interesting you received less snow than K season to date.


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## Smellytele (Mar 19, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Interesting you received less snow than K season to date.


As reported 35" less. 142 vs 177


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## pinnoke (Mar 19, 2022)

Even the 142 is a bit of a stretch, perhaps, as totals are now compiled even before the lifts begin to spin, as well as taking the summit measurement vs. lower. Several years ago, I liked to claim that we only reported measurement of "a big, fat, Sugarbush inch" in comparison to what I called "the Killington inch" (never in writing, of course!). And, Win has a funny story as to how Jay Peak always seemed to report "two feet"...


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> Even the 142 is a bit of a stretch, perhaps, as totals are now compiled even before the lifts begin to spin, as well as taking the summit measurement vs. lower. Several years ago, I liked to claim that we only reported measurement of "a big, fat, Sugarbush inch" in comparison to what I called "the Killington inch" (never in writing, of course!). And, Win has a funny story as to how Jay Peak always seemed to report "two feet"...


MRG reports 146 at the summit there...so I think the 142 is probably relatively close to reality.

Base elevation SB only reports 104" to date this season. Not at all good...


----------



## Los (Mar 19, 2022)

I have one full voucher left (in addition to a bunch of 50% off vouchers) - if anyone would like it, please let me know.


----------



## slatham (Mar 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> MRG reports 146 at the summit there...so I think the 142 is probably relatively close to reality.
> 
> Base elevation SB only reports 104" to date this season. Not at all good...


Wow that is a lame snow season.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2022)

slatham said:


> Wow that is a lame snow season.


Last year at this point in the season we were at 153" summit and 116" base (with all 111 trails still open)...so snowfall this year is only slightly behind last year. However this year we had a lot more thaws and rain than we had through this point of the season last year which is the major difference.


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## mikec142 (Mar 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Last year at this point in the season we were at 153" summit and 116" base (with all 111 trails still open)...so snowfall this year is only slightly behind last year. However this year we had a lot more thaws and rain than we had through this point of the season last year which is the major difference.


Last year...MLK thru February was awesome.  I don't think there were any freeze/thaw events during that period.

Sadly, it seems like my season is done.  Fingers crossed for some sort of miracle.


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## ducky (Mar 20, 2022)

Just did a few runs. Awful and going fast.


----------



## slatham (Mar 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Last year at this point in the season we were at 153" summit and 116" base (with all 111 trails still open)...so snowfall this year is only slightly behind last year. However this year we had a lot more thaws and rain than we had through this point of the season last year which is the major difference.


Last year sucked too. But there was a run from the pre-Christmas rain storm until after Presidents week of no non-frozen precipitation, and no thaws. Skiing actually got very good for weeks on end even if there weren't a slew of dumps.


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## WinS (Mar 20, 2022)

I will check but we are trending towards the lowest snowfall total since Sugarbush opened in 1958!


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2022)

slatham said:


> Last year sucked too. But there was a run from the pre-Christmas rain storm until after Presidents week of no non-frozen precipitation, and no thaws. Skiing actually got very good for weeks on end even if there weren't a slew of dumps.


Yup...Exactly my point. You can survive a shitty snow year and still manage to have good conditions on the slopes if you avoid the non-frozen precip and thaws. Those 2 things are killing us this year in the 2nd low snow year in a row (or is it 3rd? We were around 140" in 2020 when things shut down in mid-March and I can't recall too much whether much snow happened after that...I remember it being a cool spring, but don't remember much about the precip).

Stein's Run still looks incredibly deep (after the last round of snow-making on it a couple weeks ago, possibly even deeper than I can ever remember seeing it), which is great...but at the same time, if we're down to that too early in the spring, I'll be bored of it in no time. (I'm not as confident in the depth on Snowball/Spring Fling...).


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## SkiTheEast (Mar 20, 2022)

I read somewhere that Sugarbush has never had back to back below 200" years.  Is that in jeopardy now? Honestly can't remember where we ended up last year.


----------



## 1dog (Mar 20, 2022)

I


SkiTheEast said:


> I read somewhere that Sugarbush has never had back to back below 200" years.  Is that in jeopardy now? Honestly can't remember where we ended up last year.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 20, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> I read somewhere that Sugarbush has never had back to back below 200" years.  Is that in jeopardy now? Honestly can't remember where we ended up last year.


178" was last year's total...

I'm still not sure what the actual 2020 total was, but I feel like it had to be below 200" which already would mean 2020 and 2021 were both potentially below 200" (we were at 141" as of 3/14/20 when things shut down that season...and I don't think we had 60" of snow after that)


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## machski (Mar 21, 2022)

cdskier said:


> 178" was last year's total...
> 
> I'm still not sure what the actual 2020 total was, but I feel like it had to be below 200" which already would mean 2020 and 2021 were both potentially below 200" (we were at 141" as of 3/14/20 when things shut down that season...and I don't think we had 60" of snow after that)


Not sure what Vermont got, but NH and Maine got pounded with snow after the 2020 shutdown.  Friends who live full time were posting picks of the skinning and skiing.  Would have been an awesome late spring season except for the pesky bug.  We wound up hiking Mt. Moosilauke that Memorial day, it had just snowed another foot a week or so earlier and Beaver Brook trailside still had to have 3-4 foot base depth above 2500'.  If you went off the packed monorail, you post holes up to your waist!


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 21, 2022)

Unused Sugarbush Quad Pack tickets for sale. $50 each. 3 midweek/non-holiday, 1 anytime use. Message me if interested, thanks.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Not sure what Vermont got, but NH and Maine got pounded with snow after the 2020 shutdown.  Friends who live full time were posting picks of the skinning and skiing.  Would have been an awesome late spring season except for the pesky bug.  We wound up hiking Mt. Moosilauke that Memorial day, it had just snowed another foot a week or so earlier and Beaver Brook trailside still had to have 3-4 foot base depth above 2500'.  If you went off the packed monorail, you post holes up to your waist!



Found the numbers on page 412 of this thread. As of what would have been the expected closing date for the 2020 season (5/3), SB had 193" (so roughly a total of 50" in the 6 weeks after shutting down). It then snowed even more after that in May to bring them to/over 200". I remembered it being a cool spring...I just didn't remember all the snow after mid-March.


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## machski (Mar 21, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Found the numbers on page 412 of this thread. As of what would have been the expected closing date for the 2020 season (5/3), SB had 193" (so roughly a total of 50" in the 6 weeks after shutting down). It then snowed even more after that in May to bring them to/over 200". I remembered it being a cool spring...I just didn't remember all the snow after mid-March.


I did.  It killed me we were missing out on it due to the shutdowns.  Those don't come along often so it really hurt just watching it fall.


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## Hawk (Mar 21, 2022)

The conversations within the group this weekend were depressing.  Things like, what is the over under on which weekend we will be just Steins?  If this pattern persists it might be 4/9.  I hope not.  May is 6 weeks out.  At this rate do you think the snow on Steins will last?  More importanly do you think they will keep operations open until then if skier visits fall off? Typically they close the last week in April and reopen for Cinco de Mayo and the Kentucky Derby. This year 5/5 is a Thursday and the Kentucky Derby is Saturday 5/7.  That is a long way off.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The conversations within the group this weekend were depressing.  Things like, what is the over under on which weekend we will be just Steins?  If this pattern persists it might be 4/9.  I hope not.  May is 6 weeks out.  At this rate do you think the snow on Steins will last?  More importanly do you think they will keep operations open until then if skier visits fall off? Typically they close the last week in April and reopen for Cinco de Mayo and the Kentucky Derby. This year 5/5 is a Thursday and the Kentucky Derby is Saturday 5/7.  That is a long way off.


Sadly I was having these exact same conversations this weekend. Completely agree that these conversations were utterly depressing...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 21, 2022)

Yes..they are


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 21, 2022)

Wish it was a bit warmer here..went from 40...to 4


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 21, 2022)

how was the weather and snow this weekend? i expected deluge down in jersey city on Saturday and was downright annoyed by the beautiful day. then yesterday i woke up and it was beautiful again and i almost ran to windham or stratton at like 7 am. kind of kicking myself that i didn't as the days dwindle. was it actively raining during either ski day over the weekend?

i am going up this coming weekend no matter what i think. maybe even as far as jay just to burn the indy day. could also do cannon, waterville, bolton. then i think stratton sunday while on the way home

SAD

i was so bored not skiing yesterday that i went ahead and booked cheap hotels with free reservations and last minute cancellation policies for jackson, ketchum, and ogden for late February 2023  some great airbnbs but i didn't want to pay deposits now. i can prob still book those airbnbs in like august lol


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## Hawk (Mar 21, 2022)

At Sugarbush:
Friday: sunny, warm in the 50's approching 60.  Soft conditions.  Really nice.
Saturday: overnight it poured rain a few hours early morning and then stopped.  There was light rain at openeing but then it stopped most of the day.  Skiing was soft but there was thick fog from just below the bravo top all the way up.  really hard to see.  Fog was eating the snow.  temps in the 40's to low 50's midday.  We got heavey showers about 10:00pm Saturday night.
Sunday was broken clouds and cooler but no rain.  At least when i was there.  I only did a few runs.  it was still soft.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> At Sugarbush:
> Friday: sunny, warm in the 50's approching 60.  Soft conditions.  Really nice.
> Saturday: overnight it poured rain a few hours early morning and then stopped.  There was light rain at openeing but then it stopped most of the day.  Skiing was soft but there was thick fog from just below the bravo top all the way up.  really hard to see.  Fog was eating the snow.  temps in the 40's to low 50's midday.  We got heavey showers about 10:00pm Saturday night.
> Sunday was broken clouds and cooler but no rain.  At least when i was there.  I only did a few runs.  it was still soft.


I would just add that heavens gate was iffy all day friday and saturday.  I don't think I had one ride without multiple stop starts.


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## Apple Country (Mar 21, 2022)

Anyone know why the Sugarbush premium pass is $429 and blacked out value pass is $659? What am I missing?


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## WinS (Mar 21, 2022)

Apple Country said:


> Anyone know why the Sugarbush premium pass is $429 and blacked out value pass is $659? What am I missing?


Under 30 Pass renamed Sugarbush Premium (formerly Four 20s))


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## djd66 (Mar 21, 2022)

Is there a special pass price for college students?


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## Apple Country (Mar 21, 2022)

WinS said:


> Under 30 Pass renamed Sugarbush Premium (formerly Four 20s))


Ahh, thanks. I could've sworn the link from Ikon didn't have the age details but accessing through sugarbush.com it comes up.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> At Sugarbush:
> Friday: sunny, warm in the 50's approching 60.  Soft conditions.  Really nice.
> Saturday: overnight it poured rain a few hours early morning and then stopped.  There was light rain at openeing but then it stopped most of the day.  Skiing was soft but there was thick fog from just below the bravo top all the way up.  really hard to see.  Fog was eating the snow.  temps in the 40's to low 50's midday.  We got heavey showers about 10:00pm Saturday night.
> Sunday was broken clouds and cooler but no rain.  At least when i was there.  I only did a few runs.  it was still soft.



It finally rained Sunday late in the afternoon (maybe around 3ish?). I think it was cold enough up top at that point to be snow at the summit and then snow levels dropped as the evening went on. At the base it only amounted to a light dusting on a few colder surfaces by this morning. I skied about a dozen runs in the morning yesterday. Some of the ungroomed runs seemed firmer on Sunday than on Saturday (Lower Snowball, Lower Organgrinder).


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I would just add that heavens gate was iffy all day friday and saturday.  I don't think I had one ride without multiple stop starts.



I never made it up there Saturday. I'm trying to remember how it was on Sunday. I think there were multiple stop/starts Sunday as well if I recall correctly on the couple runs I took up there.


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## WinS (Mar 21, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Is there a special pass price for college students?


Traditionally college  passes go on sale in the fall, so I assume that will still be the case.


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## ducky (Mar 22, 2022)

Like cement this morning despite the sun. Maybe it got better but I didn't stick around long enough to find out.


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## Smellytele (Mar 22, 2022)

ducky said:


> Like cement this morning despite the sun. Maybe it got better but I didn't stick around long enough to find out.


It’s that time of year where it is better to sleep in a little and let things soften up. Cold nights and warm days. Thaw/freeze/thaw/freeze….


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2022)

I'm off the rest of the week...timing certainly not ideal but I scheduled these days a while ago. Probably going to head to Stowe tomorrow to burn my 1 day pass that I have there. A bit of a waste considering what is open over there, but I don't know when I'll get another chance this season to use it.


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## hovercraft (Mar 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'm off the rest of the week...timing certainly not ideal but I scheduled these days a while ago. Probably going to head to Stowe tomorrow to burn my 1 day pass that I have there. A bit of a waste considering what is open over there, but I don't know when I'll get another chance this season to use it.


it looks like snow on Thursday night so friday might be a good day to go or Sunday as they are calling for 6 or more starting early morning.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> it looks like snow on Thursday night so friday might be a good day to go or Sunday as they are calling for 6 or more starting early morning.


Even at 3800' I'm only seeing a low of 30 Thursday night with a mix of rain, snow and freezing rain in the latest forecasts. Seems risky to wait for Friday. Sunday's out as I have to pack up and leave to go to Cambridge for a work trip in the afternoon so I'll only have time for a few hours of skiing Sunday morning.


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## hovercraft (Mar 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Even at 3800' I'm only seeing a low of 30 Thursday night with a mix of rain, snow and freezing rain in the latest forecasts. Seems risky to wait for Friday. Sunday's out as I have to pack up and leave to go to Cambridge for a work trip in the afternoon so I'll only have time for a few hours of skiing Sunday morning.







__





						Mount Mansfield Weather Forecast (1339m)
					

Mount Mansfield, Green Mountains, Appalachians, United States Mountain weather forecast for 1339m. Detailed 6 day mountain weather forecast for climbers and mountaineers.



					www.mountain-forecast.com


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## Hawk (Mar 23, 2022)

Screw those automated forecasts.  What is Scott Braaten saying?  I tust him.


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## hovercraft (Mar 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Screw those automated forecasts.  What is Scott Braaten saying?  I tust him.


I find this report to be pretty accurate


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## Hawk (Mar 23, 2022)

Ok we will see.  Not going to Stowe anytime soon.


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## hovercraft (Mar 23, 2022)

I guess we will, thanks for the warning


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## Hawk (Mar 23, 2022)

You're most welcome.


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## Hawk (Mar 23, 2022)

This is a Sugarbush thread after all but here is the National Weather Service Report form the Burlighton office for Mt Mansfield peak.  I don't see 6" here and even if it snows it sounds like significant freezing rain before.


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I find this report to be pretty accurate


That's surprising as they are notorious for being pretty terrible. I'd never use them for planning any sort of trip. The algorithm they use pretty much assumes all precip that falls in temps below freezing will be snow...which is certainly not always the case.

The NWS forecast that Hawk posted is actually what I had used. I also read the forecast discussion from NWS Burlington. Real meteorologists providing actual analysis and forecasts instead of just an automated algorithm that can't even tell the difference between freezing rain, sleet, and snow.

FWIW, I did make it to Stowe today. Really turned out to be a very nice day. Sure a lot of the natural terrain I'd like to ski isn't open, but oh well. I will say I was impressed by the depth and coverage of their snow-making trails. I also thought their grooming was pretty impressive (not to knock SB's grooming as this may simply be a factor of Stowe's groomers having more snow depth and a better snow surface to work with to provide a more even, consistent surface with deeper cord). You can also rack up a lot of vertical very quickly. That said, the conservative nature of the Stowe Ski Patrol would drive me nuts. Half the trails at SB would rarely be open if our patrol was like that. So I'm very thankful for SB's patrol being so aggressive and lenient with opening trails and leaving a good deal of the decisions on whether to ski something up to us skiers. I also really could never see myself dealing with the crowds they have on the weekends. A couple people I talked to on the lifts said they're just absolutely overrun on weekends. At least at Sugarbush our trail and lift setup gives you many more options to avoid crowds. At Stowe, way too many trails are accessed from the same couple lifts. I know some people don't like the pod setup, but I really like it. I'll gladly take 500' less vertical per run if it means I don't need to stand in a long line at the base because everyone is trying to ride the same lift.

I'd still like to get a mid-winter (mid-week) day at Stowe at some point when everything is open and in play...but overall I'm still very happy for SB to be my home mountain.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's surprising as they are notorious for being pretty terrible. I'd never use them for planning any sort of trip. The algorithm they use pretty much assumes all precip that falls in temps below freezing will be snow...which is certainly not always the case.
> 
> The NWS forecast that Hawk posted is actually what I had used. I also read the forecast discussion from NWS Burlington. Real meteorologists providing actual analysis and forecasts instead of just an automated algorithm that can't even tell the difference between freezing rain, sleet, and snow.
> 
> ...



they've always been conservative, but its so much worse since vail. it would drive me crazy. sugarbush's ski it if you dare policy suits my skiing style perfectly.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's surprising as they are notorious for being pretty terrible. I'd never use them for planning any sort of trip. The algorithm they use pretty much assumes all precip that falls in temps below freezing will be snow...which is certainly not always the case.
> 
> The NWS forecast that Hawk posted is actually what I had used. I also read the forecast discussion from NWS Burlington. Real meteorologists providing actual analysis and forecasts instead of just an automated algorithm that can't even tell the difference between freezing rain, sleet, and snow.
> 
> ...


I think that mountain-forecast and snow-forecast are derived from the GFS model.  I've looked at it pretty consistently (some might say obsessively) over the last few years because it does give you a more accurate depiction of the elevation forecast than say looking at the town or valley where the mountain is located.  But it is subject to the reliance on a single mesoscale model as opposed to a forecast from meteorologists  taking in multiple models.  And you're correct, it doesn't account for other forms of frozen precipitation.
NWS Burlington does produce what they call an enhanced mountain point forecast for the summits.  It only goes out a few days.   You can find the mt ellen forecast at this link.




__





						Enhanced Mountain Point Forecasts
					





					www.weather.gov


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I think that mountain-forecast and snow-forecast are derived from the GFS model.  I've looked at it pretty consistently (some might say obsessively) over the last few years because it does give you a more accurate depiction of the elevation forecast than say looking at the town or valley where the mountain is located.  But it is subject to the reliance on a single mesoscale model as opposed to a forecast from meteorologists  taking in multiple models.  And you're correct, it doesn't account for other forms of frozen precipitation.
> NWS Burlington does produce what they call an enhanced mountain point forecast for the summits.  It only goes out a few days.   You can find the mt ellen forecast at this link.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know why those mountain point summit forecasts only go out such a short time-frame. Would be nice if they at least went out 3-4 days. But on the bright side,
NWS also has point forecasts for different elevations that you can get the full forecasts for by clicking around the map on their normal forecast pages until you find the approximate elevation you want. For example this one is Sugarbush at 2800': https://forecast.weather.gov/MapCli...=44.1414&textField2=-72.8961&e=0#.YjuOLTUpCUk


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## hovercraft (Mar 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's surprising as they are notorious for being pretty terrible. I'd never use them for planning any sort of trip. The algorithm they use pretty much assumes all precip that falls in temps below freezing will be snow...which is certainly not always the case.
> 
> The NWS forecast that Hawk posted is actually what I had used. I also read the forecast discussion from NWS Burlington. Real meteorologists providing actual analysis and forecasts instead of just an automated algorithm that can't even tell the difference between freezing rain, sleet, and snow.
> 
> ...


I find them very accurate on wind speeds, elevation forecast, on snow amounts I find them reliable maybe not as much as they are on wind and elevation data.  You are correct on the conservative nature of trail opening. SB is more aggressive in that area.  When it comes to snow making, grooming, and the mountain getting more snow over the season Stowe has it over SB.  Early season without snow there is more terrain open at Stowe due to the increased snow making capability.  With a rain event they recover quicker as well.  I agree SB can move people around in a more efficient manor because of the pod system.  As far as crowds go Stowe does get crazy at times on the weekends, and with that being said I never waited more then 10 to 12 minutes in line this year.  I have been a pass holder at both mountains over the years.  Both mountains are great, they just have different price of admissions to play there.   Depending what aspects of the mountain you value more will dictate where you go.  We are lucky that we have two great mountains to choose from….  Sounds like you had a good time.  Next time you visit let me know, I would be more then happy to tour you around!!!


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## WinS (Mar 23, 2022)

I had a great day at ME skiing with a college friend. Other than Looking Good only skied groomers. Snow holding up well and the groomers did a terrific job. We did fast cruisers for three hours under blue bird skies with almost no one there and then a nice lunch at GML. My weather forecast is when wake up in the morning and look out the window.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 23, 2022)

Probably..the most accurite forecast..
Nose out window


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## mikec142 (Mar 24, 2022)

WinS said:


> I had a great day at ME skiing with a college friend. Other than Looking Good only skied groomers. Snow holding up well and the groomers did a terrific job. We did fast cruisers for three hours under blue bird skies with almost no one there and then a nice lunch at GML. My weather forecast is when wake up in the morning and look out the window.


Sounds like an awesome day at ME.

Sadly, living 5+ hours from SB, it's hard to make decisions about skiing by looking out the window.   Someday though!


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## slatham (Mar 24, 2022)

As far as weather is concerned, if you're not going to invest in looking at forecast models etc., at least read the NWS Forecast Discussion.


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## Apple Country (Mar 24, 2022)

I think we are going to do the 8 lesson pack for the kids at Sugarbush next season. Don't want to be locked into weekly programs just yet and want to do lessons at a destination mountain. 

The misery of scheduling lessons at Epic Mountains is a significant reason we are not renewing; very limited availability, full day only, etc. 

Anyone have difficulty scheduling lessons at Sugarbush this year? I get that the holidays book up early but any other issues this year?


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 24, 2022)

I wouldn’t be wishing for snow 
Ain’t going to happen it’s spring 
Pray for warm sun  and cold nights to set up and corn days 
Saturday could be ok  but then a  lockup

North lynx hanging in like mad river at xmass


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## ducky (Mar 24, 2022)

Scott Braaten's Mansfield forecast this morning: The good news is that there will be no traffic on the mountain road.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

And there ya go..


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## mikec142 (Mar 25, 2022)

ducky said:


> Scott Braaten's Mansfield forecast this morning: The good news is that there will be no traffic on the mountain road.


I didn't see it...link please.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 25, 2022)

Deep corn today


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> Deep corn today


It was really surprisingly good out there today. I didn't expect it to be that soft and nice. Ungroomed stuff like Birdland, Lower Organgrinder, and Sunrise were all excellent... Ripcord with a coating of snow at the top earlier today was nice too...although got sticky lower down. I was too busy with exploring other trails to make it back up top to see if it changed at all.


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## Hawk (Mar 25, 2022)

I thought you were going to Stowe to ski the 6" that are getting?  LOL
I had to actually work today so that ends my Friday Ski Club Streak.  All good things have to come to an end.  Got my Skis Sharpened and waxed.  I think I might needed it this weekend.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 25, 2022)

I bought spring wax...back in town sunday..banged up but able to ski...


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I thought you were going to Stowe to ski the 6" that are getting?  LOL
> I had to actually work today so that ends my Friday Ski Club Streak.  All good things have to come to an end.  Got my Skis Sharpened and waxed.  I think I might needed it this weekend.


LOL. Definitely glad I went to Stowe on Wednesday. Looking at their trail report now I see quite a few of the trails that I skied on Wednesday are closed there at the moment.


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## hovercraft (Mar 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I thought you were going to Stowe to ski the 6" that are getting?  LOL
> I had to actually work today so that ends my Friday Ski Club Streak.  All good things have to come to an end.  Got my Skis Sharpened and waxed.  I think I might needed it this weekend.


He should of, this was my morning with another 5 to 8 on it’s way.   Don’t worry I made enough turns for both of us with more to come…


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## ducky (Mar 26, 2022)

I see 1-3.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 26, 2022)

Never know..till you go...


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## Hawk (Mar 26, 2022)

It's all good.  The debate was about the accuracy of that particular site.  It was wrong.  That is all.  I never begrudge people getting the goods.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 27, 2022)

3 inches so far and coming down...


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 27, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 3 inches so far and coming down.


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 27, 2022)

On what


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 27, 2022)

This?


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 27, 2022)

Good for you


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## ThatGuy (Mar 27, 2022)

Why everybody in this thread always so persnickety…looks like winter returned Slug


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 27, 2022)

Still coming down whoo


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## Teleskier (Mar 27, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Why everybody in this thread always so persnickety…looks like winter returned Slug


In this case... because we're jealous we're not there!


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2022)

Where the hell is everybody today? Been empty out there all morning...


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 27, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Where the hell is everybody today? Been empty out there all morning...


My wing man went to Stowe today and reports are super good! I’m regretting staying home getting out on a mountain bike ride now to make up for it. It sounds like they have the goods and we don’t.


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2022)

Wife’s birthday today so no skiing for me. We went to Loon yesterday and it was pleasantly non crowded. Ski on lifts for the most part except gondola which we only took once. South and north skied great after our first run was a skin up around 7:30.


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2022)

Hawk said:


> It's all good.  The debate was about the accuracy of that particular site.  It was wrong.  That is all.  I never begrudge people getting the goods.


If you re


Shredmonkey254 said:


> My wing man went to Stowe today and reports are super good! I’m regretting staying home getting out on a mountain bike ride now to make up for it. It sounds like they have the goods and we don’t.


Your wing man played here, because he believed me when I told him we were getting over 6 from Saturday night through Sunday (not like other people on this forum ).  I underestimated though as we got more then that.  Here are some pic’s Shredmonkey wish you could have made it would have been fun.  We did make some turns in your honor though…..  Hope you had a good MB ride.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> If you re
> 
> Your wing man played here, because he believed me when I told him we were getting over 6 from Saturday night through Sunday (not like other people on this forum ).  I underestimated though as we got more then that.  Here are some pic’s Shredmonkey wish you could have made it would have been fun.  We did make some turns in your honor though…..  Hope you had a good MB ride.



Who on this forum didn't believe you'd get snow Saturday night through today? The backend from Saturday night through early this week was well forecasted and expected by many. SB received a bunch too today. What we didn't believe was what was shown for Thursday night to Friday morning by that mountain-forecast site (and we were right about that). Today right off the bat I said wasn't an option for me to go to Stowe since I had to drive down to Cambridge after skiing (I'm posting this right now from my hotel room here in Cambridge).

No complaints about skiing at SB today...still no idea why people didn't show up today. I had a good time. I took it a bit easy though as my legs were a bit shot after 5 days in a row of skiing.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2022)

Of course the 1 week I need to leave the valley early on a Sunday is also the day there was snow falling most of the day. Just looked at the webcams and looks like it is still falling at a good clip. Looks like a good 3-4" more fell on the summit snow stake since I left early this afternoon.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Mar 27, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> If you re
> 
> Your wing man played here, because he believed me when I told him we were getting over 6 from Saturday night through Sunday (not like other people on this forum ).  I underestimated though as we got more then that.  Here are some pic’s Shredmonkey wish you could have made it would have been fun.  We did make some turns in your honor though…..  Hope you had a good MB ride.View attachment 53856View attachment 53857View attachment 53858View attachment 53859View attachment 53860View attachment 53861


That is painful to see… glad to hear it was a top 10 day of the year today!


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Who on this forum didn't believe you'd get snow Saturday night through today? The backend from Saturday night through early this week was well forecasted and expected by many. SB received a bunch too today. What we didn't believe was what was shown for Thursday night to Friday morning by that mountain-forecast site (and we were right about that). Today right off the bat I said wasn't an option for me to go to Stowe since I had to drive down to Cambridge after skiing (I'm posting this right now from my hotel room here in Cambridge).
> 
> No complaints about skiing at SB today...still no idea why people didn't show up today. I had a good time. I took it a bit easy though as my legs were a bit shot after 5 days in a row of skiing.
> View attachment 53862


Must have had a miscommunication, when I said to you they expect 6 or more I was referring to Sat-Sun.  I understood that you couldn’t come on Sunday as you were driving back.  Anyway glad you had a good day!!!


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## oldfartrider (Mar 27, 2022)

I was at sugarbush today.  It was so good!


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## Hawk (Mar 28, 2022)

I skied pow in the morning and then did a 2 hour MTB ride Sunday Afternoon in the boston area.  Best of both worlds.
I also interperted that there was going to be snow on Friday at Stowe.  That is what the graph on that link was showing at the time of the post.


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2022)

So at my company's new office in Cambridge, a lot of our meeting rooms are named after ski resorts which I thought was kind of cool...Killington, Jay Peak, Mt Snow, Sugarloaf, Loon, etc. Notably missing however (or at least I didn't see it yet) is Sugarbush  (Of course it could also be planned for one of the floors still under construction).


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 28, 2022)

i kind of assumed the back end wouldnt get cranking until late Sunday and that it would mainly make driving annoying and not impact my skiing, so i went to sunday river where it looked like it would be warmer and sunnier on sat, and then loon sunday because i was sleeping 5 minutes away in lincoln and they open at 8 so i would be able to start early and get home early. no regrets, i had a great weekend. but fuck me, i was not thinking sugarbush would have a sunday powder day. was it powder skiing from opening bell on? i leave by 1 at the latest on sundays so for my sake i hope these pics were all later after the snow had time to pile

@cdskier - loon was a ghost town as well. i only waited on one line, which was under 5 min for the singles line on the gondola at peak 11 am. otherwise it was ski on, and i got over 30k vert down by noon. the fairweather skiers are all done


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## NYDB (Mar 28, 2022)

Spring sports have started for people with kids.  Enjoy your empty slopes.


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i kind of assumed the back end wouldnt get cranking until late Sunday and that it would mainly make driving annoying and not impact my skiing, so i went to sunday river where it looked like it would be warmer and sunnier on sat, and then loon sunday because i was sleeping 5 minutes away in lincoln and they open at 8 so i would be able to start early and get home early. no regrets, i had a great weekend. but fuck me, i was not thinking sugarbush would have a sunday powder day. was it powder skiing from opening bell on? i leave by 1 at the latest on sundays so for my sake i hope these pics were all later after the snow had time to pile
> 
> @cdskier - loon was a ghost town as well. i only waited on one line, which was under 5 min for the singles line on the gondola at peak 11 am. otherwise it was ski on, and i got over 30k vert down by noon. the fairweather skiers are all done


The photo I posted was taken shortly after 8am. There was about 2-3" at that time, but it also looked like there were some spots that benefited from wind dumping more snow in them. Snowed another inch or so by 10:30 when I stopped. Then right after that dumped hard for a bit (a quick inch accumulated on my truck after I got back to my condo before I ran back out to grab lunch...and that is just above base elevation levels).


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## WinS (Mar 28, 2022)

The sun brings people this time of year  went to see my newest grandson, so missed the POW.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 28, 2022)

This is good..want to get a few more days there.


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2022)

WinS said:


> The sun brings people this time of year  went to see my newest grandson, so missed the POW.


Congrats!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 28, 2022)

congrats win!

vermont subreddit has a thread about many wrecks on 89 yesterday morning. i am glad i steered clear of the situation. i am trying to stretch my all season tires to November and then i am going to get snows. but in the meantime i have all seasons with 36k miles on them. i know I'm dumb as fuck for not already having snows.


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## ducky (Mar 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> congrats win!
> 
> vermont subreddit has a thread about many wrecks on 89 yesterday morning. i am glad i steered clear of the situation. i am trying to stretch my all season tires to November and then i am going to get snows. but in the meantime i have all seasons with 36k miles on them. i know I'm dumb as fuck for not already having snows.


Mass man, 59, killed on I-89 in Berlin yesterday afternoon around 5pm. Had to wonder if he was returning home from skiing.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 28, 2022)

It was sporty yesterday


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## pinnoke (Mar 28, 2022)

WinS said:


> The sun brings people this time of year  went to see my newest grandson, so missed the POW.


Congrats, Win! Our 'next' grandchild arrives in Atlanta in about a week...making travel arrangements now!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 28, 2022)

WinS said:


> The sun brings people this time of year  went to see my newest grandson, so missed the POW.


That's valid for a grandson.  Granddaughter, not so sure (I kid).  
Congrats


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## WinS (Mar 29, 2022)

The new snow did not bond well with the existing snow. Some nice like powder but on top of very firm surface. I think it will groom out a lot better tonight and as the temps warm-up the snow will get softer. The one exception this am was Sunrise. It was beautifully groomed and worth lapping several times. It should be excellent again tomorrow. Right now the weekend is looking good, so I would recommend  getting here and  enjoying some spring skiing and riding. Who knows what next week will bring.


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## pinnoke (Mar 29, 2022)

Grinder, Spills, and Ripcord all skied quite nicely. I'm sorry I didn't hit Paradise, based on what I heard back down in the lodge. Yes, I think the next few days will be a lot of fun...there's ample coverage to keep us happy for awhile longer, indeed.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 29, 2022)

Super cold temps..big winds..all in the trees everywhere..
Spring may appear...soon


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## Blurski (Mar 30, 2022)

The Rock is on for today, hiking of course, the best way!


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## ducky (Mar 30, 2022)

Blurski said:


> The Rock is on for today, hiking of course, the best way!


Seriously, beware the runout. Better to hike up to Downspout than do major damage.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2022)

Next weekend is pond skimming and the concert with Chadwick Stokes from Dispatch, G. Love, and DJ Logic.  Anybody getting VIP tickets?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

lol dispatch g.love and dj logic. 2001 called and wants its third tier jambands back

when i was at sugarbush on the pow day my buddy and i took a lift with a dude who is so excited for this because 'g.love pulls so much pussy.' dude g love is like in his 50s now and is playing in rural Vermont. he will not be a pied piper of pussy at sugarbush


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2022)

No, but I just saw him recently and he still has some talent.  What do you think, they are going to get Imagine Dragons, Ariana Grande and Lady Gaga?  At this point I am totally psyched that they are having music.  I mean we have just started seeing bands just recently like the Detonators.  No Grift.  But I will take this any day.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

im not hating, just smirking at the nostalgic line-up, and more smirking about my enthusiastic chairlift friend. i very well may be there next weekend. I'm skipping this weekend to see the disco biscuits tonight and Saturday, so I've surely got my own jamband skeletons in the closet. next weekend is just a matter of deciding where to ski but my standing reservation at the rutland days inn is on the books as of now


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2022)

Also I have to laugh.  "the pied piper of pussy at sugarbush"  Who talks like that.  LOL


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2022)

Am I the only one that has no idea of who these bands they're having next weekend are?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Am I the only one that has no idea of who these bands they're having next weekend are?



no. if you werent into jambands or frat rock circa 2001 you shouldn't have any idea! lol

Chadwick stoke's band dispatch had a hit you may have heard called the general


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## Smellytele (Mar 31, 2022)

I will be there but not spending $75 for the VIP.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2022)

G Love and Special Sauce came out of the Philly rock scene in the late 90's.  I wouldn't call him frat rock though.  He mixed a bluesy sound with some hip hop/Rap.  Pretty fun.  Chadwick Stokes grew up in the Boston area and went to Dover high school.  He also went to Middlbury so he has some connections here in VT.  Both are professional musicians and are several steps above the local music scene we have been digesting up here in the valley.  I have seen both a few times as I am a person from that era.  Just glad to have any music at the base.  I have totally missed live performances.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

yea, g.love is a weird sort of white boy blues rap anchored by a jazz trio with an upright bass. i use the broad frat rock descriptor to describe a scene more than a sound. like dave matthews at the top of the pile, and then bands like dispatch, g.love, OAR, michael franti, etc below. this was a parallel but separate track to the jambands, who were clearly led by phish and followed by like string cheese incident, moe, widespread panic, umphreys, and the disco biscuits.

the best band to play on the regular at sugarbush is soul monde, imo. russ and ray are in trey anastasio's side project bands and they are serious players. it was sweet when i randomly walked into castlerock pub one day after skiing to find them throwing down.


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## SKI-3PO (Mar 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> G Love and Special Sauce came out of the Philly rock scene in the late 90's.  I wouldn't call him frat rock though.  He mixed a bluesy sound with some hip hop/Rap.  Pretty fun.


While G. Love is from Philly, the band was formed in Boston (Cambridge) in the early/mid 90s.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no. if you werent into jambands or frat rock circa 2001 you shouldn't have any idea! lol
> 
> Chadwick stoke's band dispatch had a hit you may have heard called the general



I was/am mainly into mainstream hard/alt/classic rock. Back in the early 2000s I would have been seeing bands like Metallica, Linkin Park, Pantera, Slayer, Sevendust, Slipknot, Clapton, Manzarek/Krieger.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I'm skipping this weekend to see the disco biscuits tonight and Saturday,



Speaking of second rate jambands...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Speaking of second rate jambands...



guilty pleasure. i immediately refered to them as a jamband skeleton in the closet. but I've been seeing them for 22 years and they've been a source of lifelong friendships and one of the most consistent threads thru my adult life. they're the best jamband at jamming for my tastes, but they are the worst at songs, singing, and being a band with any semblance of professionalism. i find their improvisational sections to be a lot more interesting than phish, and i gave up on rabid phish fandom over a decade ago, but the biscuits have kept me engaged for a lonnnng time


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

It's all good dude  I can't help myself.  I agree on the improve.  Its not my thing all of the time, but sometimes I get a hankering for it and I do enjoy their unz unz jams.  That singing though... OOF

I'm still deep into my Phish fandom.  Its  something that Ive been into for more than half my life.   Same thing for Ween.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

phish was first love stuff for me. i started begging my parents to let me see phish in 98 (13 years old), and they relented in 99. first concerts i went to without dad. previously i had been with dad to springsteen and buffet (his choices) and dmb msg 1998 (my choice). i went to phish at nassau 10/7 and 10/8/99 and then saw them at radio city 5/21-22/2000. i started seeing the biscuits 12/29/2000 at a weird venue on long island called the Vanderbilt that is now a steakhouse and off track betting parlor. i loved phish so much, but found them to be wholly underwhelming after the break-up reunion in 2009. they just stopped reliably jamming, and shows turned into 20+ pretty corny 7 minute-ish songs with predictable guitar solos. occasionally they break the mold and do something interesting, but the unpredictability of when that is going to happen mostly just frustrates me. so i see phish only when its local and convenient and inexpensive now. which, living in NYC, is pretty easy so i catch phish once a year or so. have not since pre-covid tho.

love ween. been a long time since i have seen them. i combined a colorado ski trip with their post-breakup reunion shows a few years ago. they always play around here during ski season so i haven't seen them in a minute. my girlfriend also CANNOT STAND WEEN. they're gonna be around june 10 but i am going to Montreal that weekend to be in Montreal but also to go see sigur ros perform, which i am so excited for.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, g.love is a weird sort of white boy blues rap anchored by a jazz trio with an upright bass. i use the broad frat rock descriptor to describe a scene more than a sound. like dave matthews at the top of the pile, and then bands like dispatch, g.love, OAR, michael franti, etc below. this was a parallel but separate track to the jambands, who were clearly led by phish and followed by like string cheese incident, moe, widespread panic, umphreys, and the disco biscuits.
> 
> the best band to play on the regular at sugarbush is soul monde, imo. russ and ray are in trey anastasio's side project bands and they are serious players. it was sweet when i randomly walked into castlerock pub one day after skiing to find them throwing down.


these bands are right up my alley and I don't mind saying so.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

i went thru a long period where i allowed the uncoolness of dave matthews to make me stop liking dave matthews. like my 20s. in my 30s i am so over that and can and do listen to old dave matthews albums and shows. the other stuff i classified as frat rock makes me want to vomit, but to each their own. jambands that are not either the disco biscuits or somehow related to the grateful dead i also tend to find to be generally pretty bad, but again, to each their own. i like the disco biscuits and most reasonable people hate them.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

Last Summer the Jams were back with Phish and fairly reliably since the Bakers Dozen in '17.   I agree the 2009-2016 version of Phish was not really my cup of tea.  Glad they found their jam mojo again.

Ween is Ween.  they give you a stellar 3 hour rock show of 5 minute songs.   I wish they'd write new music.

I have a very small window of DMB I like, but wife and I usually see them once per year with another couple who always get good seats through the warehouse fan club.   My buddy and I get super drunk and throw out lots of bro hi5s with our shirts unbuttoned.   

Sorry Sugarbush thread, but I like to talk music too!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

i went to three bakers dozen shows including jam-filled, and they were great, but they actively pissed me off. because why not every day!


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

I only hit Cinnamon night,.  Everyone knew they were going to play Cinnamon Girl and when they hadn't played it during Sets 1 and 2 and started into the first chords during the encore the place erupted!    I was happy with the show except for that shitty song the Line. I hate that fucking song and its stupid organy vibe.  

yeah the breaks were weird especially since there were not other events planned at the Garden.  They're big enough that they can play when and where they want to.

Have Pit tix for both nights of the Mann Center this year.  Can't wait.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I only hit Cinnamon night,.  Everyone knew they were going to play Cinnamon Girl and when they hadn't played it during Sets 1 and 2 and started into the first chords during the encore the place erupted!    I was happy with the show except for that shitty song the Line. I hate that fucking song and its stupid organy vibe.
> 
> yeah the breaks were weird especially since there were not other events planned at the Garden.  They're big enough that they can play when and where they want to.
> 
> Have Pit tix for both nights of the Mann Center this year.  Can't wait.



oh no, i mean 'why not every day' as in 'why don't you jam like this at every show'. i almost took offense to the concept that they can actively chose to turn it on like a light switch. it felt like they had been actively withholding good music for a really long time. it pissed me off a lot.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

I can get on board with this sentiment.  Sober Trey has ADD and he can't help himself but to move onto one of his shitty dad rock songs


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## STREETSKIER (Mar 31, 2022)

Wednesday was  my kind of day
Sunny and cold to start, excellent groomers
Today sticky in places with the  newsnow 
Started raining around 1230. 60 degrees 
Headed back tomorrow should be washed clean and faster.   gatehouse will die.  hoping for corn.  sat  sunny and 45 
 Lots of Locals out getting it while it’s here


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

Completly beat today..just couldnt get out of bed...


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## smac75 (Mar 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the best band to play on the regular at sugarbush is soul monde, imo. russ and ray are in trey anastasio's side project bands and they are serious players. it was sweet when i randomly walked into castlerock pub one day after skiing to find them throwing down.


I think straight jacket slumber party over at GML has been a blast this season. They get the crowd into it for sure!


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## tumbler (Mar 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I can get on board with this sentiment.  Sober Trey has ADD and he can't help himself but to move onto one of his shitty dad rock songs


AS you mentioned they have been much better, this past summer and fall were awesome with the jams.  I'm just glad they are still playing.  
Kusty- you need to get over your jadedness.  They are having fun playing so I'll have fun going to shows.
For me music is to each their own- whatever makes you happy.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 31, 2022)

i'm not jaded! i was when i still cared and wanted them to be what i wanted them to be. they are what they want to be and that's ok. its just not for me so i lowered my level of care. now i go super casually when its local and easy, with low expectations, and i have fun. i have lots of other music i prefer to be rabid about.


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## Hawk (Apr 1, 2022)

Like everything else, with music, everybody is an expert.  LOL  I am not sure who out there actually plays an instument but it's not easy.  I played and took kyboard lessons for 20 years.  I have forgotten more than I have retained.  So,  If people are out there playing, I don't judge unless they are awful.  I see my share of shows but I have narrowed my venues to the less than a couple thousand and smaller types.  Recently I have narowed it down to small venues in the Boston area and have been focused on local jazz, blues and eclectic funky ensambles. I do not really have a taste for modern day pop, most of the rap scene or contemorary country but respect the musicians for thier craft.  As for Sugarbush, sole monde, the grift, detonators and a few others are great for what it is.  I will take all of it.  Bring more music Sugarbush!


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## pinnoke (Apr 1, 2022)

I'm with you, Hawk! (And, also took lessons and played piano for years, until being intimidated by professor Max Roach at UMass for Jazz Improv 101.) Still, I have that same awe and respect for all but the terrible, as well as composers...wow! I add bluegrass to the mix, and I sometimes refer to it as 'country jazz'. I wish Sugarbush's BrewGrass would bring in somebody more than just the very local...


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2022)

Yea...playing an instrument certainly isn't easy. I took "piano" lessons for many years (actually mostly played on a Hammond B3 organ my dad had, although we did eventually get a piano later on too). Also played trumpet for years. Now I would probably suck at both as I haven't done either in years.


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## Hawk (Apr 1, 2022)

Then you add singing to the mix.   Try playing something off beat like Reagae and singing to it at the same time.  Whoa.  I failed.  Also my voice sucks.   But I digress.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 1, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Then you add singing to the mix.   Try playing something off beat like Reagae and singing to it at the same time.  Whoa.  I failed.  Also my voice sucks.   But I digress.


Its all rythm & medley...and I dont have either.  just a middle aged white guy trying to enjoy some tunes


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 1, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> I'm with you, Hawk! (And, also took lessons and played piano for years, until being intimidated by professor Max Roach at UMass for Jazz Improv 101.) Still, I have that same awe and respect for all but the terrible, as well as composers...wow! I add bluegrass to the mix, and I sometimes refer to it as 'country jazz'. I wish Sugarbush's BrewGrass would bring in somebody more than just the very local...



you studied piano under max roach? yes, thats very fucking intimidating lol

i play guitar, mostly acoustic, and plataeud in my teens at a very intermediate level. i dabbled in dj-ing/mixing for a while and had some very fun nights dj'ing 4 hour sets in east village dive bars circa 2010


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## pinnoke (Apr 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you studied piano under max roach? yes, thats very fucking intimidating lol


Yeah...about 1 class before I dropped it! It clearly was for music majors. When he suggested we come prepared with a song transposed into multiple key options, I crawled back to my Elton John imitations and slowly faded away. Interested in a beautiful Knabe 6-ft. grand that no longer can hold its tune?


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## slatham (Apr 1, 2022)

Based on all the music chatter I guess the skiing sucks.......


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Depends where you are..


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## Hawk (Apr 1, 2022)

The skiing is fine.  Just talking about another passion for some.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> .
> 
> the best band to play on the regular at sugarbush is soul monde, imo. russ and ray are in trey anastasio's side project bands and they are serious players. it was sweet when i randomly walked into castlerock pub one day after skiing to find them throwing down.


Saw them NYE at Sunday River a few years back.
I have seen TAB several times but it was cool seeing them do their own thing.


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## CrazyFingers (Apr 1, 2022)

We played the weekend before the Covid shutdown in March of 2020 at the Hyde and the CRP.  It was pretty crazy…. We definitely had the feeling that was going to be our last gig for a long time.  We were correct.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 1, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The skiing is fine.  Just talking about another passion for some.


reading about what y'all listen to, you be speaking a foreign language to me, excepting music being the universal 
WFH today, watching the webcams and waiting for tomorrow - my playlist of lp's listened to today, so far - mostly new releases: 
Paul Cauthen, Alabaster de Plume, Labyrinthitis, Soulglo, Charlotte Adigéry, Cate Le Bon, Belle & Sebastian and Wilco now.
Don't know who's up next! It is all good! and hoping the sliding will be too! Snowing good at top of the hill, not so here in the valley.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 1, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> reading about what y'all listen to, you be speaking a foreign language to me, excepting music being the universal
> WFH today, watching the webcams and waiting for tomorrow - my playlist of lp's listened to today, so far - mostly new releases:
> Paul Cauthen, Alabaster de Plume, Labyrinthitis, Soulglo, Charlotte Adigéry, Cate Le Bon, Belle & Sebastian and Wilco now.
> Don't know who's up next! It is all good! and hoping the sliding will be too! Snowing good at top of the hill, not so here in the valley.


Wish I could get into jam bands. Saw moe at Sugarloaf a bunch of years ago - I just did not get it. But that electric, mouth-blown digeradoo thing the dude was playing was certainly interesting and mildly entertaining, I guess you can say memorable!


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## WinS (Apr 1, 2022)

Forget the music conversation. 5” so far tonight and Groomer Dan texted that “it is working”. I think tomorrow could be surprisingly nice especially under mostly sunny skies.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Hmmm.....


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## Lotso (Apr 2, 2022)

Who rented out ME today? I see GMX spinning and people loading and skiing. Nice corn I imagine


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## Hawk (Apr 2, 2022)

I was on first chair at Bravo at 8:30 and first chiar at heavens gate.  Where were you Win!  Oh, sking was really really good this morning.  No corn to be found,  well not until after lunch but it got a little sticky.  Great ski day.  No one here for how good it was.  Time for an apre marg.


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## Hawk (Apr 2, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Who rented out ME today? I see GMX spinning and people loading and skiing. Nice corn I imagine


I heard it was some guy that has a big house over there and he rented out the whole mountain.


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## cdskier (Apr 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I was on first chair at Bravo at 8:30 and first chiar at heavens gate.  Where were you Win!  Oh, sking was really really good this morning.  No corn to be found,  well not until after lunch but it got a little sticky.  Great ski day.  No one here for how good it was.  Time for an apre marg.


I know he was out there. He was right in front of me in the singles line at Bravo around 9. Yes...really good out there this morning. I hit Paradise which I didn't think would happen again this season...


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 2, 2022)

Empty.huh...
Crowded at Stowe.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 2, 2022)

WinS said:


> Forget the music conversation. 5” so far tonight and Groomer Dan texted that “it is working”. I think tomorrow could be surprisingly nice especially under mostly sunny skies.


Great intel! Thanks Win, today was a wonderful day at the Bush! Followed Robert up not Bravo an HG with his bubble machine. Good times!


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## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 2, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Great intel! Thanks Win, today was a wonderful day at the Bush! Followed Robert up not Bravo an HG with his bubble machine. Good times!


From our posse to yours!


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## WinS (Apr 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I was on first chair at Bravo at 8:30 and first chiar at heavens gate.  Where were you Win!  Oh, sking was really really good this morning.  No corn to be found,  well not until after lunch but it got a little sticky.  Great ski day.  No one here for how good it was.  Time for an apre marg.


I was slow starting and started up at 9am and missed those first tracks on Ripcord, but still had a couple of nice runs. I would have been on the chair with CD if the person if front had their pass in the right spot.  When Lili joined me we went to sunrise and that was the nicest groomed run this morning. I do plan on early-ups tomorrow though.

The ME renter was not the guy with the big house but another long-time passholder. He sure lucked out on the day.


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## cdskier (Apr 2, 2022)

WinS said:


> I was slow starting and started up at 9am and missed those first tracks on Ripcord, but still had a couple of nice runs. I would have been on the chair with CD if the person if front had their pass in the right spot.  When Lili joined me we went to sunrise and that was the nicest groomed run this morning. I do plan on early-ups tomorrow though.
> 
> The ME renter was not the guy with the big house but another long-time passholder. He sure lucked out on the day.



I felt bad that you got stuck behind them and I didn't wait for you...but I didn't want to hold up the line for the other people that were behind me.

Still amazes me how many people don't have their pass in the right spot!


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## ducky (Apr 4, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I was on first chair at Bravo at 8:30 and first chiar at heavens gate.  Where were you Win!  Oh, sking was really really good this morning.  No corn to be found,  well not until after lunch but it got a little sticky.  Great ski day.  No one here for how good it was.  Time for an apre marg.


Went out at 1:00 and had to park in the Warren House lot. The heli lot was closed. Seemed busy to me but I don't usually get out weekends.


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## Smellytele (Apr 4, 2022)

Was there yesterday. Things are going fast. Paradise was sketchy can’t imagine it being open after yesterday. Same with morning star.
Gondolier will be done soon as well. obviously coffee run has plenty on it. 
Stein’s softened up nicely in the afternoon. Ripcord was great as well. Jester was getting a little brown in the afternoon but coverage was fine.


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## urungus (Apr 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> phish was first love stuff for me. i started begging my parents to let me see phish in 98 (13 years old), and they relented in 99. first concerts i went to without dad. previously i had been with dad to springsteen and buffet (his choices) and dmb msg 1998 (my choice). i went to phish at nassau 10/7 and 10/8/99 and then saw them at radio city 5/21-22/2000. i started seeing the biscuits 12/29/2000 at a weird venue on long island called the Vanderbilt that is now a steakhouse and off track betting parlor. i loved phish so much, but found them to be wholly underwhelming after the break-up reunion in 2009. they just stopped reliably jamming, and shows turned into 20+ pretty corny 7 minute-ish songs with predictable guitar solos. occasionally they break the mold and do something interesting, but the unpredictability of when that is going to happen mostly just frustrates me. so i see phish only when its local and convenient and inexpensive now. which, living in NYC, is pretty easy so i catch phish once a year or so. have not since pre-covid tho.
> 
> love ween. been a long time since i have seen them. i combined a colorado ski trip with their post-breakup reunion shows a few years ago. they always play around here during ski season so i haven't seen them in a minute. my girlfriend also CANNOT STAND WEEN. they're gonna be around june 10 but i am going to Montreal that weekend to be in Montreal but also to go see sigur ros perform, which i am so excited for.



Some friends dragged me to Phish’s first ever West Coast show on 3/28/1991 for $1 at the Catalyst Club in Santa Cruz 




__





						Mar 28, 1991 Setlist - Phish.net
					






					phish.net
				



Not really a big jam band fan though, wish ski areas had more heavy metal acts.


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## Hawk (Apr 4, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> From our posse to yours!


I know a few of your pose by sight only.  I see them all the time.  You would recognise me.


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## WinS (Apr 4, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I know a few of your pose by sight only.  I see them all the time.  You would recognise me.


Missed you Sunday am. Got in a couple of finals runs down Sunrise at 9am after a couple on Ripcord. Monday was nice corn snow and the groomers pathed things up nicely after setting up overnight. Looks good through Wednesday and then we will see. You might not have to pond skim to get wet. But it’s still days away.


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## AbominableSnowman (Apr 4, 2022)

FYI: According to one of the people manning the Ikon booth at Sugarbush this past Saturday, 4/2/2022, the deadline for receiving the $100 renewal discount for a 2022/2023 Ikon pass is on/around 4/20-4/21 this year.  Curiously, the deadline date wasn't included in the most recent announcement email, yet it seems likely that they will post a reminder email soon which will include the most up-to-date information.


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## slatham (Apr 5, 2022)

I've been surprised and a bit disappointed TBH that they haven't posted any "sale ends date" for the renewal discount.


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## Hawk (Apr 5, 2022)

Those like myself, who are going to get it have alreadys done so to get the discount.  The rest of the procrastinators will get a warning.  They are not going to quietly close the sale off.  We will get inundated with "you better get it now" e-mails.  I am sure they are waiting to formally set the date based off the numbers and what they are recieving for proceeds.  So what is so disapointing?


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## cdskier (Apr 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Those like myself, who are going to get it have alreadys done so to get the discount.  The rest of the procrastinators will get a warning.  They are not going to quietly close the sale off.  We will get inundated with "you better get it now" e-mails.  I am sure they are waiting to formally set the date based off the numbers and what they are recieving for proceeds.  So what is so disapointing?



I'm definitely getting it...but I'm also a procrastinator and just haven't actually done it yet. It is weird to me that they don't just set/communicate a date right from the start. I wouldn't call it disappointing though. Just strange.


----------



## WinS (Apr 5, 2022)

slatham said:


> I've been surprised and a bit disappointed TBH that they haven't posted any "sale ends date" for the renewal discount.


April 20


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 5, 2022)

Bought mine two weeks ago.  Looking forward to getting a ton of use out of it next season. 

This was my second Ikon season.  The previous year, I got a ton of value.  This year not nearly as much, but it's mostly my fault.  I had two western trips this season that were to Epic resorts (Vail and Telluride).  Both trips were planning by someone else and while I had amazing times, I didn't have a ton of say into the destination.  I'm hoping that Telluride follows Sun Valley and makes the move back to Ikon because I have close friends who now live there and I can see Telluride becoming an annual trip.

Edited to add I also had a three day trip to Gore.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 5, 2022)

Only got 10 days at sb..but 7 at jh..so i think i got my moneys worth.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 5, 2022)

AbominableSnowman said:


> FYI: According to one of the people manning the Ikon booth at Sugarbush this past Saturday, 4/2/2022, the deadline for receiving the $100 renewal discount for a 2022/2023 Ikon pass is on/around 4/20-4/21 this year.  Curiously, the deadline date wasn't included in the most recent announcement email, yet it seems likely that they will post a reminder email soon which will include the most up-to-date information.


just bought mine, thanks for the reminder.  Just another great reason why I spend hours of my time reading posts on the AZ! (my wife still does not understand)


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 5, 2022)

those concerts were a ton of fun this past weekend

this lil bout of covid i came down with sure isnt.


----------



## slatham (Apr 5, 2022)

WinS said:


> April 20


Thanks Win. Though my disappointment with the WebSite (Just checked again) and overall communication of this date stands.


----------



## TSQURD (Apr 5, 2022)

The original announcement & email about the 22/23 passes had the date. First item under IKON PASS COMMUNITY MEMBER BENEFITS








						Three new iconic destinations, Chamonix Mont-Blanc Valley in France, Sun Valley in Idaho and Snowbasin in Utah, plus two new pass options, 2 and 3-day Ikon Session Passes, join the Ikon Pass community for winter 22/23
					

Three new iconic destinations, Chamonix Mont-Blanc Valley in France, Sun Valley in Idaho and Snowbasin in Utah, plus two new pass options, 2 and 3-day Ikon Session Passes, join the Ikon Pass community for winter 22/23.




					www.alterramtnco.com


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 5, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> those concerts were a ton of fun this past weekend
> 
> this lil bout of covid i came down with sure isnt.


I blame the jam bands! Get well soon


----------



## Los (Apr 6, 2022)

Los said:


> I have one full voucher left (in addition to a bunch of 50% off vouchers) - if anyone would like it, please let me know.


I still have that one full voucher left - I was surprised no one claimed it! Anyway, it's still available if anyone would like it, just let me know.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 6, 2022)

I will have about 50 days at Sugarbush, 4 days at Killington, 5 days at Sunday River and 6 Days at Palisades Tahoe.  I definately got my money's worth.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 6, 2022)

Damn...I'm behind this year. I'm probably only going to get to around 40 at SB and 1 at Windham on my Ikon this year. Still definitely got my money's worth though!


----------



## djd66 (Apr 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I will have about 50 days at Sugarbush, 4 days at Killington, 5 days at Sunday River and 6 Days at Palisades Tahoe.  I definately got my money's worth.


if you are employed full time, that is impressive!


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I will have about 50 days at Sugarbush, 4 days at Killington, 5 days at Sunday River and 6 Days at Palisades Tahoe.  I definately got my money's worth.


Nice.  I got 21 total.  20 at sb and 1 at red.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 7, 2022)

djd66 said:


> if you are employed full time, that is impressive!


The only benefit of Covid was the work from home thing.  My wife and I did work from home Fridays and worked up there so we got to ski a few hours every Friday afternoon.  3 day weekeds add up quick plus 7 days over Christmas/New Years.


----------



## MadPadraic (Apr 7, 2022)

31 at SB so far.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 7, 2022)

I saw this on the Sugarbush Youtube channel.  I have to say this video feels like a good bye video or something like that.
Is there something we should know Win?  Or is it just thank you in general which is a sentiment I fully agree with.

Thank you Win


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 7, 2022)

Pond skims like a boss!!


----------



## pinnoke (Apr 7, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Nice.  I got 21 total.  20 at sb and 1 at red.


Howie...how/why did you only do 1 day at Red?! Something disappointing must've cut you short...


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 7, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> Howie...how/why did you only do 1 day at Red?! Something disappointing must've cut you short...


No and yes.  I skied red on the drive up from Spokane to Nelson.  It’s on the way.  So the plan was to ski there one day, then 5 days at whitewater and possibly one in the way back to catch the flight home from Spokane.  red is a great mountain but it doesn’t get nearly the amount of snow that whitewater and points north get.  It’s only about 30 miles away but whitewater gets so many days of 2cm, 5cm 10cm, constant refreshers that red doesn’t seem to get.  so you have to hit it right.  The day I was there this year, it hadn’t snowed in 2 weeks.  There was plenty of base but the surface was packed.  It was chalky.  Skiing was fun but no fresh powder.  The mountain is big with a bunch of peaks.  Town of Rossland is really cool too.  But I had 5 straight powder days at whitewater and couldn’t motivate to hit red on the way back.
next year it’s looking like we’ll stay at red and do 3-4 days with big red cats.  Probably go to Nelson and ski whitewater 3 days beforehand.
the base area at red is recently refurbished and they did a nice job.


----------



## pinnoke (Apr 8, 2022)

Got it...much better! I didn't understand that your 20+1 was only referencing IKON days. I skied at Red 2 years ago; got home 1 day before TSHTF. Had a great time! Stayed right in Rossland at a hotel across from the brewery. We got some modest powder for our final day...beautiful! On THAT trip, also using Spokane as our gateway, we skied 1 day at Lookout Pass; 1 at Silver; and 3 or 4 each at Schweitzer and Red. This past early March, we were back at Schweitzer; then Whitefish. My usual suspects that gather from across the US aren't 'up to' Whitewater, though I've got it on my radar. I'd also like to get back. Thinking ahead to a return to Fernie (only had 1 day there a few years back, after 4 'in Banff'; 3 at Panorama; plus one at Kimberley). Missing late Spring at SB, but for good reason...a healthy beautiful granddaughter born Tuesday, in Atlanta; followed by 40th anniversary stopover somewhere coastal with the non-skiing and totally understanding Mrs...before the road(s) home. Cheer on Win and the pond skimmers for me this Saturday!


----------



## tumbler (Apr 8, 2022)

Bummer, weekend looking moist.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2022)

Unusual...no updates to the snow report yet this morning. Wonder if they're having an issue with the website? Or did they really just not get a chance to update it yet? Looks like a good deal of ice on the upper part of the mountain from the webcams. Just cold rain at the base though.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 8, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Bummer, weekend looking moist.


really is, looks like the largest stage I've ever seen at SB being erected now. And I think I saw a boat being dragged up the hill for pond skimming. Judges stand perhaps? Looks like they are planning a big party!


----------



## Hawk (Apr 8, 2022)

I am here and headed out after a few pesky calls.  Radar shows the rain stopping in a little while and we plan to ski aroung this afternoon. They were building the pond yesterday and this morning.  I am in no matter the weather.  I will just dress for it and drink more.  LOL


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I am here and headed out after a few pesky calls.  Radar shows the rain stopping in a little while and we plan to ski aroung this afternoon. They were building the pond yesterday and this morning.  I am in no matter the weather.  I will just dress for it and drink more.  LOL


Yea...I'm going to head out early this afternoon for a few runs once I'm done with my calls. As long as it isn't a downpour, I'll be out there this weekend at least for a bit.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 8, 2022)

LOL take a look at the Mid Mountain snow stake cam.  That otta tell you what the conditons look like.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 8, 2022)

Oh and Gatehouse is done for the year lit looks like.  They took down the cam but I saw there is no snow at the bottom.  It is now just Bravo and HG and Valley house on the weekends.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Oh and Gatehouse is done for the year lit looks like.  They took down the cam but I saw there is no snow at the bottom.  It is now just Bravo and HG and Valley house on the weekends.


Yea...they announced last weekend that last Sunday would be the last chance for GH laps. I made sure to take a final run last Sunday on Sunrise for the season. Sunrise had plenty of snow at the time, but the stuff off GH was definitely getting thin last weekend.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

Stowe report this morning was the lift and towers were completely frozen
I imagine sb had a similar issue this morning
A bit depressing


----------



## TSQURD (Apr 8, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe report this morning was the lift and towers were completely frozen
> I imagine sb had a similar issue this morning
> A bit depressing


Current view on the Mid Mtn Snow Stake


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 8, 2022)




----------



## Los (Apr 8, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> really is, looks like the largest stage I've ever seen at SB being erected now. And I think I saw a boat being dragged up the hill for pond skimming. Judges stand perhaps? Looks like they are planning a big party!


Stage is for G Love - remember him??

Two other performers as well. Weather though is a HUGE bummer….

Edit - G Love, but sadly, no Special Sauce


----------



## pinion247 (Apr 8, 2022)

Los said:


> G Love, but sadly, no Special Sauce



My baby got... nothing...


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2022)

Well the skiing out there today was quite nice...until it started raining a little before 3 and I got soaked. It was snow/sleet above the top of Spillsville so maybe the snow levels will start to drop a bit. The amount of ice on some of the surfaces at the summit was impressive. Looked like almost a inch on one side of some of the trees up there.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 8, 2022)

Los said:


> Stage is for G Love - remember him??


I have no idea who this guys / gals music is! But I'm sure it would be fun to be there on National Gin and Tonic Day!


----------



## slatham (Apr 8, 2022)

Spring surprise warning. One elevation dumping the other wet....


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2022)

pinnoke said:


> Got it...much better! I didn't understand that your 20+1 was only referencing IKON days. I skied at Red 2 years ago; got home 1 day before TSHTF. Had a great time! Stayed right in Rossland at a hotel across from the brewery. We got some modest powder for our final day...beautiful! On THAT trip, also using Spokane as our gateway, we skied 1 day at Lookout Pass; 1 at Silver; and 3 or 4 each at Schweitzer and Red. This past early March, we were back at Schweitzer; then Whitefish. My usual suspects that gather from across the US aren't 'up to' Whitewater, though I've got it on my radar. I'd also like to get back. Thinking ahead to a return to Fernie (only had 1 day there a few years back, after 4 'in Banff'; 3 at Panorama; plus one at Kimberley). Missing late Spring at SB, but for good reason...a healthy beautiful granddaughter born Tuesday, in Atlanta; followed by 40th anniversary stopover somewhere coastal with the non-skiing and totally understanding Mrs...before the road(s) home. Cheer on Win and the pond skimmers for me this Saturday!


Congrats
rossland is cool, Nelson, is bigger with more restaurants/bars


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2022)

Oops, posted that prematurely.  We skied red one day where it started off ok and then snowed an inch or two midday and was fantastic.  There’s some really nice tree skiing there.
I haven’t spoken to anyone who has stayed at those mid mountain cabins they just built, but that is very intriguing.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 9, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Oops, posted that prematurely.  We skied red one day where it started off ok and then snowed an inch or two midday and was fantastic.  There’s some really nice tree skiing there.
> I haven’t spoken to anyone who has stayed at those mid mountain cabins they just built, but that is very intriguing.


Red mountain is one of my favorite ski ares anywhere! Trees and steeps and no peeps! No reports from today? I played plumber all day and missed out on festivities


----------



## cdskier (Apr 9, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Red mountain is one of my favorite ski ares anywhere! Trees and steeps and no peeps! No reports from today? I played plumber all day and missed out on festivities


The new snow at the top was very sticky this morning. Not sure if it improved later on as I didn't go back up after my initial runs up there. Bottom half of the mountain was nice and fun though (as long as you didn't mind getting wet). Pond skimming was fun to watch as usual. I bailed around noon once the water started soaking through my jacket.


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## cdskier (Apr 10, 2022)

According to the RFID gates, today was day 1 at SB for me! I did finally renew my Ikon pass last night, so maybe that reset the count for some reason?


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 10, 2022)

Was there today. Snow showers all day. Top of the mtn was in the clouds all day. Ripcord was good in the morning but got scraped off in the afternoon. Steins got softer as you got down it but top was slide into a bump and turn.
Lower organ grinder was getting very thin this afternoon.
Bird land was my favorite today.


----------



## teleo (Apr 10, 2022)

Someone in front of me went to day 1.  Lifty said renewal resets. Wife just renewed ours, so I'm guessing I go from 63 to 1 tomorrow.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2022)

I noticed the Brew Grass festival listed on the events page on the website. $95/ticket (which is $40 cheaper than last year...but still over double the pre-COVID prices and you still have less than half the number of breweries that you had in the past). So once again, I doubt I'll go this year.


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2022)

I will be on Martha's Vineyard circum-navigating the island on road bikes that weekend so I will not be around.  I might have gone but I agree it is a little steep for most people.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 11, 2022)

Just drink $95.00 worth of beer..prob solved...


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2022)

It doesn't work that way.  They give you a certain amount of tickets for 4 oz pours.  When your tickets are gone you are done.  unless you grab ohter people tickets.  I have never been that drunk at one of these things and I am a lightweight.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 11, 2022)

Dance party was fun, nice to see them do something different


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2022)

Yup...you get to taste 12 beers this year. Like Hawk said, you can't just keep drinking as much as you want. I do appreciate that "feature" to avoid having to worry about a bunch of drunks at the event and keep everything more relaxed and laid back. But the price still needs to be reasonable to make it worth it.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 11, 2022)

The hunter beer fests were ..a bit different. 
The ones i used to go to in nyc..all..you can drink. I think i had a good time at them..


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## ThatGuy (Apr 11, 2022)

OG is great today


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## skiur (Apr 11, 2022)

In my experience with beerfests you just have to send a young attractive female up for the beers and they don't ask for tickets.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 11, 2022)

skiur said:


> In my experience with beerfests you just have to send a young attractive female up for the beers and they don't ask for tickets.


Oh great, then all our problems are solved.


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## Hawk (Apr 11, 2022)

Because you and I Howie hang around with so many young attractive females.  LOL


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## HowieT2 (Apr 11, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Because you and I Howie hang around with so many young attractive females.  LOL


yeah, duh, we have a claybrook just for our victoria secret models.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 11, 2022)

Will this work if I bring “her” along


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 11, 2022)

Never know till you try..


----------



## WinS (Apr 12, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I saw this on the Sugarbush Youtube channel.  I have to say this video feels like a good bye video or something like that.
> Is there something we should know Win?  Or is it just thank you in general which is a sentiment I fully agree with.
> 
> Thank you Win


Hopefully the latter. Skied 17,286 vertical yesterday mostly on Ripcord. Not a bad day 127. Hats off to the Sugarbush team for a fun weekend, it was great to see The Plaza rocking again with some terrific entertainment.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 13, 2022)

Hah...I love Facebook memories during ski season. Today Facebook memories reminded me that both 3 and 4 years ago today we were still skiing lift-serviced Castlerock terrain!


----------



## Hawk (Apr 14, 2022)

Another weekend with cold wet precipitation.  Can we please get a sunny weekend with warm temps?  I am so sick of this pattern.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2022)

tomorrow looks beautiful if you can get out on the friday, and Saturday the wet seems to want to hold off til later in the day. but yea i hear ya


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## STREETSKIER (Apr 14, 2022)

Monday was the top spring day
Friday will be nice also 
Tonight’s rain and tomorrow’s sun and heat will hurt what little is there 
Headed south


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## Hawk (Apr 14, 2022)

Yup.  Probablly my last Friday ski club tommorrow for the year.  I am starting my Bike season in ernest. I might make it up for a day the next two weekends but if it is not warm and sunny I am out!  Who's skiing tomorrow?


----------



## cdskier (Apr 14, 2022)

I took today and tomorrow off from work since they're likely my last days of the season (heading back to NJ on Saturday for Easter with family...then have a wedding in NJ next weekend).

Today was actually a really nice spring day out there. Ripcord was the pick of the day and I was lapping that quite a bit. The sun and some blue skies were even peaking out from time to time this morning. I'll be out there tomorrow morning again at 10 when the lifts open...


----------



## cdskier (Apr 14, 2022)

No grooming tonight per the afternoon snow report...that will make tomorrow a bit different...


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 14, 2022)

Good thing they open at ten
Give them time to shovel
Bad sign when they say no grooming
Hanging on by a thread
Hawk go to Killington believe me


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## WinS (Apr 16, 2022)

Downspout on Friday was about the worst I have skied it other that one Easter Sunday morning, but it was open so one could get to Ripcord which was still skiing very well and the sun softened up skier‘s left. The groomers were out last night and it is snowing lightly, so I will venture out around 11am and do a few laps at least. Hopefully, Downspout holds up because Ripcord  will last through next weekend. Hopefully Stein’s will get a groom to set it up for the week And get more skier’s on it. However, groomer Dan‘s last day is Sunday before he heads off to his annual Aruba vacation. He did a great job on Ripcord all winter.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 16, 2022)

I will agree with Win about Ripchord.  it was really nice.  Organgrinder was also really good up top.  Lower Organgrinder is done.  Large dirt, mud and rock section says to me put a fork in it.  Spring fling is hanging in there.  We should get one more week of that.  I am not sure about Downspout and Jester so we will see if HG lasts.  Steins was really good also.  Tons of snow we should have that for the rest of the year however long that is.


----------



## slatham (Apr 16, 2022)

Cold and a decent wet snowfall his week will give groomers some material to work with.


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 16, 2022)

Looks great out there have fun


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 16, 2022)

Guess between SB and K..ill be busy this coming week.


----------



## skierinri (Apr 16, 2022)

Anyway/where to get a discounted ticket this late In the year?


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 16, 2022)

Jay and SB have discounts for other mountain pass holders


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 16, 2022)

Was there today. They got about 1/2” to cover the bare spots up top. Made it interesting. Downspout was “okay”. Hopefully Tuesday they get a little snow. Skied ripcord and jester a few times. 
Hit upper og once. It was a slide, hit a bump, turn and slide - repeat. Stein’s was fun


----------



## cdskier (Apr 16, 2022)

WinS said:


> Downspout on Friday was about the worst I have skied it other that one Easter Sunday morning, but it was open so one could get to Ripcord which was still skiing very well and the sun softened up skier‘s left. The groomers were out last night and it is snowing lightly, so I will venture out around 11am and do a few laps at least. Hopefully, Downspout holds up because Ripcord  will last through next weekend. Hopefully Stein’s will get a groom to set it up for the week And get more skier’s on it. However, groomer Dan‘s last day is Sunday before he heads off to his annual Aruba vacation. He did a great job on Ripcord all winter.



Ripcord was definitely the pick of the day both Thursday and Friday. If Friday ends up being my last day of the season, I'm quite satisfied with that for an ending. It was really a beautiful day with blue skies, warm temps, and soft snow. I'd have to imagine today was a pretty empty day on the mountain based on how few cars were in my condo parking lot this morning when I left to head back to NJ. It was emptier than most mid-week days this winter.



Stein's is deep...possibly deeper than I've ever seen it at this point in the season. As long as there's no unusually warm weather, I think that easily makes it to the May 1 closing date. Not so sure about others even Spring Fling making it that far though. Spring Fling seems a bit thinner than usual for this time of year...although it also wouldn't be the first time the groomers work some magic and surprise me with how much they can move around to keep that going for longer than I think.


----------



## ducky (Apr 17, 2022)

skierinri said:


> Anyway/where to get a discounted ticket this late In the year?


They've been for sale on Front Porch Forum a bit recently $50-$60.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

What are the chances Heavens Gate will still be spinning this Friday?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

Depends on what happens Tuesday


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

Figured that, thanks Slug…hope Tuesday delivers


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

Going to k ..if it doesn't deliver at least superstar and a few others are still good..


----------



## machski (Apr 18, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Going to k ..if it doesn't deliver at least superstar and a few others are still good..


We should get a net gain of "material.". I'm not going to speculate it will be called powder however, the track seems to be lining up to be a Hudson river runner.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 18, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Going to k ..if it doesn't deliver at least superstar and a few others are still good..



Had the same plan but NWS point and click shows the following for 3400'.



> Rain and snow, becoming all snow after noon. The snow could be heavy at times. High near 34. Very windy, with a southeast wind 39 to 49 mph becoming south 24 to 34 mph in the morning. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of 2 to 4 inches possible.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

hope the storm delivers a little and that they can keep heavens gate thru the weekend. sat and sunday look like fairly nice 50ish degree sun days as of now.

nice that this time of year that the hotels that are actually in warren/waitsfield are affordable and available.

haven't pulled the trigger yet but looking like I'll be at the mad river lodge this weekend. considering booking saturday only. with the late lifts start  i can just leave the house at like 4 AM sat morning. save $100 on the room and keep a happier girlfriend Friday night if we go to an early date dinner.

could also do whiteface saturday if this storm pounds the adks. $50 lift tickets. not terrible. tho i am really into squeezing max value out of my prepaid passes right now


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Whiteface is closed until the weekend..and they are going to get pounded tomorrow...oy


----------



## Hawk (Apr 18, 2022)

Yup that is the forecast.  they could get close to a foot.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Whiteface is closed until the weekend..and they are going to get pounded tomorrow...oy



ya the snow will mank up by the weekend so it wont be pow, but it will be a nice addition for the groomers to work with and to add to the au natural corn cycle


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Killington it is then..


----------



## Powder Whore (Apr 18, 2022)

Popular New England resort announces paid parking plan for next season
					

Paid parking will be implemented Friday through Sunday and holidays at all of its main lots, the resort said.




					www.wcvb.com


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 18, 2022)

Powder Whore said:


> Popular New England resort announces paid parking plan for next season
> 
> 
> Paid parking will be implemented Friday through Sunday and holidays at all of its main lots, the resort said.
> ...


I hope this does not drive the greater Burlington skiers over to IKON from Epic. Sugarbush will be over run with people if that happens.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Congrats to Win.









						Rob Katz and Win Smith to be Recognized by NSAA
					

SAM Magazine—Lakewood, Colo., April 18, 2022—Win Smith and Rob Katz will receive the 2022 National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Lifetime Achievement and In




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

sucks to share an event with that piece of shit tho. what polar opposites of owner/operators


----------



## SkiTheEast (Apr 18, 2022)

Still super early days but looks like a couple working proposals starting to perculate with the NFS if I'm reading these correctly:

Replace Heaven's Gate with fixed grip quad (for 23-24 season?):


			Forest Service
		


Regrade of Reverse Traverse to improve downhill from top of Valley House to Heavens Gate and Improve Snowmaking (this off season?):


			Forest Service


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

Regrade of reverse traverse would be great!


----------



## cdskier (Apr 18, 2022)

Good finds...I try to look for new ACT 250 filings periodically, but forget to look at the NFS SOPA reports...


----------



## WinS (Apr 19, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> What are the chances Heavens Gate will still be spinning this Friday





SkiTheEast said:


> Still super early days but looks like a couple working proposals starting to perculate with the NFS if I'm reading these correctly:
> 
> Replace Heaven's Gate with fixed grip quad (for 23-24 season?):
> 
> ...


These have been part of the long-term plan and which I believe Alterra supports. The question will be in my opinion what comes first. John told me what he believes will get well funded this year, and I was impressed with what may get approved, but it is his to communicate. The idea of reverse traverse is to take out the uphill climb and put snowmaking all the way through Heaven’s Gate Traverse. That way one can get to the entire mountain easily off of Valley House lift.

Even though the drive was replaced in HG only a few years ago and it’s useful life is still a number of years into the future,  the idea is to one day have a lower profile lift that is less vulnerable to windhold. A fixed grip quad is heavier and if lower could accomplish that.

There are some other things in the plan which may not appear exciting but are essential like the new dam in the Mad River which is the first step in the master plan to increase snowmaking capacity at LP. There is also a need to replace the original sand filter in the waste water plant that services all the base lodges, the condos and homes on the mountain (other than the newest ones). While still working it is approaching its useful life. All the engineering has been completed.

There is also a plan to replace the pipe on Pushover and Easy Rider and install click hydrants. Thus would allow these critical beginner/intermediate slopes to get open faster. I also know that a lot of work has gone into designer a new Glen House that would have multi-season use.

Of course, one of the challenges is finding contractors and supplies even when things are approved.  Like all of you, I am interested in what will be new for 2022/2023.


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya the snow will mank up by the weekend so it wont be pow, but it will be a nice addition for the groomers to work with and to add to the au natural corn cycle


snow was mank from the get go today
But yesterday was good


----------



## WinS (Apr 20, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> What are the chances Heavens Gate will still be spinning this Friday?


i would say close to 100% after the heavy snow of yesterday.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 20, 2022)

love it. thats enough for me. booked a non refundable room for sat night at the mad river lodge.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Thursday report just got a lot better..only minimal schnozzle at night...


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> love it. thats enough for me. booked a non refundable room for sat night at the mad river lodge.


The coverage on HG was excellent today.   Sun came out late morning snow soften up, great day in the SB hood.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 20, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> The coverage on HG was excellent today.   Sun came out late morning snow soften up, great day in the SB hood.View attachment 54206View attachment 54207



Crap...I leave the valley and they start letting the Stowe people in!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Well..someone has to bring the Grey Poupon...


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Crap...I leave the valley and they start letting the Stowe people in!


My mole told me it was safe when you fled the coup


----------



## Hawk (Apr 21, 2022)

Friday Ski club one last time.   Gonna be a good one.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 21, 2022)

One last SB day tomorrow for me


----------



## Hawk (Apr 21, 2022)

I will be looking for the Slug.  I ski with my wife.  We are a pair.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 21, 2022)

Big blue guy with the fancy skis..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 21, 2022)

Lets hope the weather report..is more wrong..than right tonight


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 21, 2022)

Looking a bit cloudy and breezy…
Gonna get there little late and hope the sun peeks out


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

didnt realize that weekends are still 9 am start time. glad to see that for sunday.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Damn..its raining here..report showed no rain..guess ill wait it out a bit.
And..its getting heavier.....


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Damn..its raining here..report showed no rain..guess ill wait it out a bit.
> And..its getting heavier.....



looks like wet snow at the base of sugarbush on cam fwiw


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Holy crap..its fucking pouring!!!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

there is also zilch on the radar over vermont so this should be very quickly passing


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)




----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

there's some weird shit goin on in the sugarbush webcam live chat






𝓭𝓮𝓿𝓾'𝓼 worldsugam






=JACK[message retracted]






Mars[message retracted]






𝓭𝓮𝓿𝓾'𝓼 worldella






=JACK[message retracted]






MarsRavle tnte oru hlo kand






𝓭𝓮𝓿𝓾'𝓼 worldmm






MarsPinne msg onnum kandilla






MarsNokkiyarnno






𝓭𝓮𝓿𝓾'𝓼 worldnjan oru kariyam parayam. accept chaithalum kollam chaithilla yangilum kollam






MarsIppol entha cheyyunne


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Hacked by the Russians!
Now sun is trying to come out..
Weird shit going on...at SB


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 22, 2022)

Sun and blue skies when I left this morning


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Suns out...


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 22, 2022)

Hopefully it stays out…be there in a bit I’ll keep an eye out for a blue Slug


----------



## Hawk (Apr 22, 2022)

Radar shows off and on but the forecast is to dry out.  I am finishing up work shortly and headed out.

steve


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Its snowing at the top. HG


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Sun came out. But im cooked..Guess im escargot.
Ran into ThatGuy..lapped ripcord all day.
Snowed at the top off an on..


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 22, 2022)

Heavens Gate just shutdown so thats it for me today.
Great skiing some laps with you Slug…have to do it again at Stowe next season


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

jeez. heavens gate has really been sputtering this year. really hope that's taken care of for the weekend.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Wow..there was a lift mechanic working on the towers all day


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Worth another day tomorrow...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Then again..tomorrow coukd be a jay day..weather looks right..


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 22, 2022)

They have consistently had lift issues over the past few years.  They really need to replace HG!


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 22, 2022)

Jay is 100% open


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

And....i think ill go...


----------



## Hawk (Apr 22, 2022)

Grooming Steins now.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 22, 2022)

Going to be cold tomorrow..spring..has left..


----------



## cdskier (Apr 23, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> They have consistently had lift issues over the past few years.  They really need to replace HG!



Well they've already started filing the paperwork with the Forest Service to replace it (next year it looks like). Although I also don't really agree that it has consistently had issues over the past few years. This year there have been a bunch of issues on it...but I don't recall any continuous issues last year or the year before with HG. And even this year, there have really only been a handful of days that it has had any major issues/downtime (of course some of those days happened to be prime days where it was really impactful...)


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Well they've already started filing the paperwork with the Forest Service to replace it (next year it looks like). Although I also don't really agree that it has consistently had issues over the past few years. This year there have been a bunch of issues on it...but I don't recall any continuous issues last year or the year before with HG. And even this year, there have really only been a handful of days that it has had any major issues/downtime (of course some of those days happened to be prime days where it was really impactful...)


I didn’t mean lift issues with HG consistently.  I meant in general, with HG being on the top of my list as its time to move from hamster power to modern technology


----------



## oldfartrider (Apr 23, 2022)

You don’t actually think a hsq would go in there do you?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 23, 2022)

Its down for maintenance now..


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 23, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> You don’t actually think a hsq would go in there do you?


No but a fixed grip quad like valley house.  Wonder if they move the terminus to the observation deck where the old gondola used to be.


----------



## oldfartrider (Apr 23, 2022)

Wouldn’t that cause more wind holds?


----------



## Newpylong (Apr 23, 2022)

Absolutely, not to mention the old peak is on the wrong (OG) alignment.


----------



## SkiTheEast (Apr 23, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> You don’t actually think a hsq would go in there do you?


I posted the link to the preliminary proposal with the national forest service a few pages back in this thread just in case missed it- definitely says fixed grip...



			Forest Service


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 23, 2022)

Cushy seat would be nice for the long ride up.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 23, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> I posted the link to the preliminary proposal with the national forest service a few pages back in this thread just in case missed it- definitely says fixed grip...
> 
> 
> 
> Forest Service



Yup...fixed grip quad with a lower profile. I'd bet it follows the same alignment though. There's no reason to even think about changing the alignment.


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 23, 2022)

I wasn’t thinking HSQ, fixed grip like the valley house.  It was be nice to have a loft that was more comfy, more room, and a bit faster.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 23, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I wasn’t thinking HSQ, fixed grip like the valley house.  It was be nice to have a loft that was more comfy, more room, and a bit faster.


Any scoop out there if HG will be running tomorrow?


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Apr 23, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Any scoop out there if HG will be running tomorrow?


Or is it done for the season?


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 24, 2022)

Don’t know, maybe we get lucky that it can’t be fixed and they put a new one in


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 24, 2022)

It runs


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 24, 2022)




----------



## hovercraft (Apr 24, 2022)

darn!!!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 24, 2022)




----------



## oldfartrider (Apr 24, 2022)

Ripcord was so fun today


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 25, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> Ripcord was so fun today



i thought the whole place skied great, except for upper organgrinder, which was still too firm when i dipped a toe in around 10:30. only thing i didn't ski. the center of steins where it wasn't TOO bumped up skied great. upper liftline under super bravo skied super fun with the soft bumps and huge grass/dirt spots to navigate. murphys groomer side was amazing at 9 AM, and ungroomed side amazing at 11:30. really solid day.


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 25, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yup...fixed grip quad with a lower profile. I'd bet it follows the same alignment though. There's no reason to even think about changing the alignment.


It seems like a ton of extra work to change the alignment.  Wouldn't they have to move towers?  I will say that it is a bit frustrating that you have to climb to get to OG and Jester.  But that's not a reason to do the extra work.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 25, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> It seems like a ton of extra work to change the alignment.  Wouldn't they have to move towers?  I will say that it is a bit frustrating that you have to climb to get to OG and Jester.  But that's not a reason to do the extra work.


Yup...you'd have to move towers (which isn't necessarily a huge deal since a new lift is going to have new towers installed and new footings installed anyway I would think) and also cut trees for a new lift line (this is a bigger issue IMO and something they'd want to avoid). And as someone else mentioned, going to the very top would likely result in more wind holds. Considering they want to make the new lift lower profile to help reduce windholds, it would be counter-productive to then go and terminate the upper end higher up where it would be more exposed to wind than it already is.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 25, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> It seems like a ton of extra work to change the alignment.  Wouldn't they have to move towers?  I will say that it is a bit frustrating that you have to climb to get to OG and Jester.  But that's not a reason to do the extra work.


Some blasting and regrading of the road to Jester would be nice


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 25, 2022)

No love for upper organ grinder (organ donor)...I swear that run has liquid nitrogen running under it...it seems to never soften. I really see anyone on it. The last time i skied it was in a foot of new snow..still solid ice underneath so it got sketchy pretty fast..but what is with it??.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> No love for upper organ grinder (organ donor)...I swear that run has liquid nitrogen running under it...it seems to never soften. I really see anyone on it. The last time i skied it was in a foot of new snow..still solid ice underneath so it got sketchy pretty fast..but what is with it??.


I think the double fall line plays a big roll on how it skis


----------



## Hawk (Apr 26, 2022)

Organgrinder is fine most years.  This year we had mostly shit conditions so it was not that good for long stretches.  I really like that we have a sustained bump run for that long distance with no grooming for the most part.  The double fall line is not that pronounced at all and is not that big of a thing for me.  I ski it a lot and use the ripchord cut through.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 26, 2022)

Isn’t that Spillsville when you cut in off Ripcord.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Isn’t that Spillsville when you cut in off Ripcord.


I think Hawk is referring to the cut through the woods at the very top right under the HG lift shack (a patroller years ago told me that cut through is named "Monkey Butt").


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 26, 2022)

Spillsville is to the right of ripcord


----------



## Hawk (Apr 26, 2022)

CD is right.  It is called monkey bite because the woods below are called the monkey.  You know Organgrinder......Monkey.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 26, 2022)

Good info!


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 26, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Spillsville is to the right of ripcord


But there is a cutover from OG as well.
Not the same as monkey butt though


----------



## Hawk (Apr 26, 2022)

Sorry Monkey Butt is correct.


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 26, 2022)

This is good info for sure.  I'd like to be able to avoid the OG headwall.

Oddly enough, In low snow years or conditions where there hasn't been new snow in a few days, I don't love several SB classics.  

I often find the very top of Upper OG to be boilerplate.  Then there's a good stretch and where it narrows it becomes boilerplate again.  I also don't love Ripcord or Steins.  I find them to be icy messes more often than not.  Ripcord from tower 8 down to 6 (or is it 9-7?) is often a sheet of ice.  I rarely get to ski RC or Steins in the warm weather as I'm not up there that much in the Spring.  I'm betting I'd like Steins a heck of a lot more than I do now if I got to ski it in the Spring.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Sorry Monkey Butt is correct.


I was briefly worried that I was using the wrong name all these years! 



mikec142 said:


> This is good info for sure.  I'd like to be able to avoid the OG headwall.
> 
> Oddly enough, In low snow years or conditions where there hasn't been new snow in a few days, I don't love several SB classics.
> 
> I often find the very top of Upper OG to be boilerplate.  Then there's a good stretch and where it narrows it becomes boilerplate again.  I also don't love Ripcord or Steins.  I find them to be icy messes more often than not.  Ripcord from tower 8 down to 6 (or is it 9-7?) is often a sheet of ice.  I rarely get to ski RC or Steins in the warm weather as I'm not up there that much in the Spring.  I'm betting I'd like Steins a heck of a lot more than I do now if I got to ski it in the Spring.



I like the cut through the woods more for avoiding the uphill climb to OG rather than specifically to avoid skiing the headwall. That very top of OG does become pretty slick some years (too much wind exposure at that point). They've tried setting up some wind fencing up there recently to help...I think it has had some degree of success but it was still a tough year this year for the very top of the headwall on OG. There was a rather large stretch this year where I didn't bother skiing OG at all (which is highly unusual for me).

Ripcord...I ski it early in the day and then don't tend to go back to it when conditions are likely to be conducive to it becoming scraped off and icy. Spring is a completely different story on that trail for sure though. RC was the pick of the day many days this spring.

Steins I also tend to not ski as much mid-season in a year like this year. In the spring on a nice warm day though it is a completely different story and a ton of fun.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 26, 2022)

So the real problem with Upper Organgrinder is the early season snowmaking.  So when the temps are marginal in late November, that is when OG gets blown.  I have literally skinned and skied it early season 5 of the past 6 years.  (Don't tell Win and Hammond) ;-)  They blow thick mud and it freezes solid and they almost never go back.  I am not sure if the elevation is the issue, or the pipes or the guns but it is never good snow early on.  Then when we get snow it just blows off.  Grooming never helps because there is nothing for the snow to hold onto.  I do ski it anywy but I wish that run was on the list for tower guns or something.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 26, 2022)

There were towers on it many years ago, the old SR-7 ones.  But that was back in the day when constant resurfacing was part of the snowmaking plan.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2022)

Eh? Upper OG still has towers...the same HKD tower guns that are on most of Ripcord, Steins, etc. Or am I missing something here? (I just took a look at my photos from 4/14 when I last skied OG to make sure I wasn't going crazy...)


----------



## tumbler (Apr 26, 2022)

I don't ski OG that often so that's how good my memory is.  And from an earlier post, the double fall line on OG is tough, I have seen some nasty falls that then slide into the woods and years ago even a groomer doing some lumberjacking.


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 26, 2022)

Friday lift served on steins


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 26, 2022)

Oh man..new boots coming thursday..if they come early enough and i can get them fitted...hmmmm...


----------



## slatham (Apr 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> So the real problem with Upper Organgrinder is the early season snowmaking.  So when the temps are marginal in late November, that is when OG gets blown.  I have literally skinned and skied it early season 5 of the past 6 years.  (Don't tell Win and Hammond) ;-)  They blow thick mud and it freezes solid and they almost never go back.  I am not sure if the elevation is the issue, or the pipes or the guns but it is never good snow early on.  Then when we get snow it just blows off.  Grooming never helps because there is nothing for the snow to hold onto.  I do ski it anywy but I wish that run was on the list for tower guns or something.



I was going to mention this as well. One year in particular - a couple years  "pre" covid - they just absolutely messed it up and it never recovered. The only way (well you now this better than I do Hawk) is to get the guns back on it, make it wet enough at start to bond, then back off to make it ski and groom-able. But thats not how snowmaking works at SB.

And then there's the wind....

And skiers/boarders going sideways scraping it off until they hit decent snow......


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 26, 2022)

I frequently stand up there to see who will drop in across that headwall...not many do.
It like  National headwall at Stowe..except more drop that thing...I drop in below it..


----------



## machski (Apr 26, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Eh? Upper OG still has towers...the same HKD tower guns that are on most of Ripcord, Steins, etc. Or am I missing something here? (I just took a look at my photos from 4/14 when I last skied OG to make sure I wasn't going crazy...)


Upper Organ grinder once had SR7 towers, nothin like the HKD's.  Made much better snow across a wide range but we're air hogs even for a towered gun.  Most have been removed and scraped at SB.  Not sure, but Steins was one of the last SR7 tower holdout trails.  I'm thinking those are gone now too.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2022)

machski said:


> Upper Organ grinder once had SR7 towers, nothin like the HKD's.  Made much better snow across a wide range but we're air hogs even for a towered gun.  Most have been removed and scraped at SB.  Not sure, but Steins was one of the last SR7 tower holdout trails.  I'm thinking those are gone now too.


Steins has had HKD towers for a number of years now...looks like shiny new towers first appeared in photos I have from December 2013 on Steins...although the heads on the brown/rusty towers in the few years prior to that more resemble HKD than SR7s, but none of the shots I have are super clear or up close on the towers so hard to tell for sure.

FWIW, there have been times on Steins (and OG) that I've skied under beautiful dry gun-powder coming out of the HKDs. So the guns themselves aren't the issue. If they're making mud early season on OG...there's some other reason (either intentional for base building or some sort of other issue going on).

There have also been years recently that they've gone back and made more snow on OG after the initial run...that's I think probably the times recently it has skied better than a year like this past year.  But this year was tough overall for snow-making with how much they had to do-over. So I can understand not going back to dust OG with better quality, lighter snow.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 26, 2022)

slatham said:


> And skiers/boarders going sideways scraping it off until they hit decent snow......


This is what I was referring to in my post regarding the double fall line.  I think because of the double fall line, the way it gets skied and the crappy snowmaking- it never gets a chance to set up and is consistently bulletproof.


----------



## mikec142 (Apr 27, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I don't ski OG that often so that's how good my memory is.  And from an earlier post, the double fall line on OG is tough, I have seen some nasty falls that then slide into the woods and years ago even a groomer doing some lumberjacking.


I skied it with my kids during Christmas week this season.  Once we passed the headwall, it was good for a bit, then I hit an icy patch and I slid (sideways) at high speed for a long, long, long way...I tried to make a turn on every dime sized patch of good snow which thankfully managed to slow me down a tiny bit.  I somehow came to a stop right before going into the woods.  Took a minute to get my heart rate under control and then finished the run to find my kids waiting at the bottom while looking at their phones.  When I got there, they looked up with one of those "what took you so long" expressions on their faces.  LOL.

To add to the experience, there weren't a ton of people on the trail at that time, but about 75% of the people that were on the trail had fallen and I was trying to dodge them while sliding.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 27, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I skied it with my kids during Christmas week this season.  Once we passed the headwall, it was good for a bit, then I hit an icy patch and I slid (sideways) at high speed for a long, long, long way...I tried to make a turn on every dime sized patch of good snow which thankfully managed to slow me down a tiny bit.  I somehow came to a stop right before going into the woods.  Took a minute to get my heart rate under control and then finished the run to find my kids waiting at the bottom while looking at their phones.  When I got there, they looked up with one of those "what took you so long" expressions on their faces.  LOL.
> 
> To add to the experience, there weren't a ton of people on the trail at that time, but about 75% of the people that were on the trail had fallen and I was trying to dodge them while sliding.


I remember skiing OG that week - it was rough and polished with a fine shammy!


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 28, 2022)

STREETSKIER said:


> Sunday will be the  day ….


At Killington 

Going down to close my season  amen


----------



## WinS (Apr 29, 2022)

It was fun chatting with all of you as a guest this year. I have a commitment this weekend so wrapped up the season last Sunday. Saturday looks like a fun ski and apres day. I thought the Sugarbush team did an excellent job this winter in a very challenging year. Good to see Spencer’s lift mechanic team almost back to full force, so I am sure they will be working hard over the summer to get all 16 Sugarbush lifts in good shape for 22/23. I noticed the snowmaking pipe for the Easy Rider/Pushover project has already arrived. Do some runs down Stein‘s for me!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 29, 2022)

i told my girlfriend i would not ski this weekend, and that i am 'basically done' except for 'one more day or two at killington'

its so nice outside i wanna go ride slush. gah!


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 29, 2022)

Hope to be there both days


----------



## STREETSKIER (Apr 29, 2022)

Bunch of runs then a walkabout


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2022)

My hat for spring skiing today.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 29, 2022)

Nice hat…SB has one of the best logos in the East that I can think of.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 30, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Nice hat…SB has one of the best logos in the East that I can think of.


Best Logo,… but the worst tag line.   I can’t buy anything that’s says “Be Better Here” on it


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 30, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Hope to be there both days


Well life threw me a curve ball and the son I am picking up at college today in VT has covid. So no skiing for me today even though I am driving up there…


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 30, 2022)

Oh..that sux...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Best Logo,… but the worst tag line.   I can’t buy anything that’s says “Be Better Here” on it


Agree on both.  A local Montpelier graphic artist came up with the logo back in the late ‘80’s.

And I don’t like that tag line.  For me it will always be, “Where Great Skiers Ski”, but that dates me.  I also remember, “It’s Sweeter Up Here.”


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 1, 2022)




----------



## Kingslug20 (May 1, 2022)

Anyone here?


----------



## hovercraft (May 1, 2022)

Hey ShredMonkey:
Great time closing out the mountain with you.  Now it’s time to move on to our magic bikes . Well maybe a skin or two in between……That’s all folks……..


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (May 1, 2022)

Super nice way to close out the season at sugarbush, good times!


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (May 1, 2022)

Sluggo - how did you get that picture of Steins, a drone?


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 1, 2022)

Out my truck window..
Galaxy 21 phone...good camera.


----------



## Smellytele (May 1, 2022)

I was there today as well. Weather was perfect for closing day. Bluebird and in the 60’s

Me and my youngest son.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (May 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I was there today as well. Weather was perfect for closing day. Bluebird and in the 60’s
> 
> Me and my youngest son.


Too funny, that was me and hovercraft across from you doing the parking lot BBQ thing today


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (May 1, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Too funny, that was me and hovercraft across from you doing the parking lot BBQ thing today


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## hovercraft (May 1, 2022)

Very funny, plus you were behind us in the lift line near the end of the day.  We want to try the Wickles, do we need to wait till next years closing day?


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2022)

That is very funny. Seems like all had a great day. Nice “meeting” you.


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## Kingslug20 (May 2, 2022)

Another successful super secret AZ summit


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Another successful super secret AZ summit


So super secret that the attendees didn’t even know it was going on.


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## Kingslug20 (May 2, 2022)

And..thats...the point...lol...


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## cdskier (May 2, 2022)

I've often wondered if I've actually "met" some people from this board and just never knew it. I remember a few years ago when I was riding the lift with WWF at ME, I would have never known it was him if it wasn't for the fact that he started talking about something that sounded very similar to a post I had read on this forum (from him).


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## Kingslug20 (May 2, 2022)

Ive met at least 6 or 8 people through the years...


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## mikec142 (May 2, 2022)

I've never  met any of you animals and I'd prefer to keep it that way.  

Seems like a fun closing weekend.


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## ThatGuy (May 2, 2022)

I met a few people this season. Hope to ski with them again next season and meet some more.
Probably depends alot on whether on not you ski solo (I’m alone 70% of the time so its nice to ski with other people).


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## 180 (May 2, 2022)

Secret or of AZ.  See you all on Super Star


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## Kingslug20 (May 2, 2022)

Hopefully friday...boots need more testing


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## mikec142 (May 2, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I met a few people this season. Hope to ski with them again next season and meet some more.
> Probably depends alot on whether on not you ski solo (I’m alone 70% of the time so its nice to ski with other people).


I'm in the same boat...with both of my kids being in college next year, it's gonna be a lot more solo days at SB for me.  Need someone to show me the ropes in Slidebrook.  Howie has offered and I will take him up on it hopefully sooner rather than later.


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## Hawk (May 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I've often wondered if I've actually "met" some people from this board and just never knew it. I remember a few years ago when I was riding the lift with WWF at ME, I would have never known it was him if it wasn't for the fact that he started talking about something that sounded very similar to a post I had read on this forum (from him).


You briefly met me walking through my condo parking lot walking from Village Run back to your condo.  ;-)  At least I think is what you.

I didn't head up for the last weekend.  Instead I opted for an early season epic MTB ride down on the northshore of MA.  Bevely Farms-Gordon_Manchester by the sea.


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## cdskier (May 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> You briefly met me walking through my condo parking lot walking from Village Run back to your condo.  ;-)  At least I think is what you.
> 
> I didn't head up for the last weekend.  Instead I opted for an early season epic MTB ride down on the northshore of MA.  Bevely Farms-Gordon_Manchester by the sea.



Yup...I remember that day. Of course we didn't realize it until AFTER that when you posted here asking if that was me lol!


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## Hawk (May 2, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I'm in the same boat...with both of my kids being in college next year, it's gonna be a lot more solo days at SB for me.  Need someone to show me the ropes in Slidebrook.  Howie has offered and I will take him up on it hopefully sooner rather than later.


Howie knows his sh*t.  He won't get you into any trouble.  This year was not a good year for that.  The snow ran out at the bottom early.


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## HowieT2 (May 2, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Howie knows his sh*t.  He won't get you into any trouble.  This year was not a good year for that.  The snow ran out at the bottom early.


Thanks but not sure how much I'm going to be around next season.  My daughter graduates at the end of the month and is moving to denver so I have to go there and I just booked BC too.  Hawk, you should meet me at whitewater.  blow your mind.


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## Slidebrook87 (May 3, 2022)

Interesting to hear that Heaven's Gate is getting replaced, or at least is planning to be. I really don't think a fixed-grip quad would be a huge upgrade, but we'll see.


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## cdskier (May 3, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Interesting to hear that Heaven's Gate is getting replaced, or at least is planning to be. I really don't think a fixed-grip quad would be a huge upgrade, but we'll see.



I think a fixed-grip quad is really the most logical and appropriate choice for HG. You don't need a high speed lift up there. Lowering the profile to reduce wind issues in a few spots is a big upgrade. A brand new lift in and of itself is a rather significant upgrade as well as in theory it would be more reliable just by virtue of being a brand new lift.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2022)

Let me see, a new lift, that is reliable and does not breakdown every week, that is heavier and lower profile so wind does not effect it and also has slightly higher capacity.  No.......No upgrade there.  LOL


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## tumbler (May 4, 2022)

LOL indeed.  I'm not sure how lower profile it can get, maybe at the section below where Spills ends but the top terminal is pretty tucked in there.  Towers could get a little lower but they are not going to be blocked from the north wind coming from lookers right.  To Hawks point the heavier chairs will probably make the most difference.  Also it would be good to move the bottom terminal uphill a bit to make more space for the corral and people milling around.  It's always an adventure coming from Ripcord and making to hard right turn to get into the corral.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2022)

I agree about the reworking of the bottom area.  I think they can also regrade and add some material to enlarge the platform where the line forms.  It will be really nice to have a more reliable lift there.


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## skiur (May 4, 2022)

Reworking anything makes act 250 approval more difficult and lengthy.  Has it been applied for yet?


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

new heavens gate lift is probably the biggest improvement they can do at lincoln peak.  will be obviously more reliable which is of utmost importance but also faster and higher capacity.
would like to see a new nrx over at mt ellen too.  should that be a hsq or would a fixed grip do?


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## djd66 (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> would like to see a new nrx over at mt ellen too.  should that be a hsq or would a fixed grip do?


Not sure why they would replace an already HSQ with a fixed grip,... That would be a major downgrade for that POD


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## jimmywilson69 (May 4, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I really don't think a fixed-grip quad would be a huge upgrade, but we'll see.


----------



## cdskier (May 4, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Not sure why they would replace an already HSQ with a fixed grip,... That would be a major downgrade for that POD


Yup...NRX covers more vertical than any other lift at Sugarbush and is really the "main" lift at ME as it gives access to the majority of terrain in a single lift. If there's any single lift that should be an HSQ...it should be that one.


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## slatham (May 4, 2022)

HG = FGQ is best solution IMHO. Adjusting profile to help with wind encouraged. Bottom terminal area improvement  a must. Not sure how much added Act 250 work there is - they did major changes to top and bottom at VH and got it done. 

Agree NRX should stay HSQ. I would think a major overall by the manufacturer could do the trick. Approaching 30 so probably needed.


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## tumbler (May 4, 2022)

The problem with NRX is that it is a fraken-lift.  Built by Poma, moved by Dopp and I'm not sure who is the vendor now.  Skytrack?


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## djd66 (May 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yup...NRX covers more vertical than any other lift at Sugarbush and is really the "main" lift at ME as it gives access to the majority of terrain in a single lift. If there's any single lift that should be an HSQ...it should be that one.


It my favorite lift at Sugarbush -  no runout, all vertical and a lot of options.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2022)

slatham said:


> Agree NRX should stay HSQ. I would think a major overall by the manufacturer could do the trick. Approaching 30 so probably needed.


I think it needs a complete replacement. As tumbler pointed out...it was originally a Poma lift, then moved by Dopp. And then also rebuilt in 2014 by Dopp already. Time to just bite the bullet and completely replace it with a brand new lift at this point. No sense dumping more money into another rebuild on that lift.



tumbler said:


> The problem with NRX is that it is a fraken-lift.  Built by Poma, moved by Dopp and I'm not sure who is the vendor now.  Skytrack?


I think Dopp is still the most recent vendor. They rebuilt it in 2014. Anything since then has just been repairs as far as I can remember. I don't recall Skytrack being involved with NRX up to this point. Unless they were involved this past year to help fix the lightning strike issues.


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I think it needs a complete replacement. As tumbler pointed out...it was originally a Poma lift, then moved by Dopp. And then also rebuilt in 2014 by Dopp already. Time to just bite the bullet and completely replace it with a brand new lift at this point. No sense dumping more money into another rebuild on that lift.
> 
> 
> I think Dopp is still the most recent vendor. They rebuilt it in 2014. Anything since then has just been repairs as far as I can remember. I don't recall Skytrack being involved with NRX up to this point. Unless they were involved this past year to help fix the lightning strike issues.


The NRX, former GMX, is now 32 years old.  I think it has served SB very well and has earned retirement.  Alterra is more interested in expanding Steamboat and Winter Park right now.  Those are shinier things than replacing NRX at SB.


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## Slidebrook87 (May 4, 2022)

tumbler said:


> LOL indeed.  I'm not sure how lower profile it can get, maybe at the section below where Spills ends but the top terminal is pretty tucked in there.  Towers could get a little lower but they are not going to be blocked from the north wind coming from lookers right.  To Hawks point the heavier chairs will probably make the most difference.  Also it would be good to move the bottom terminal uphill a bit to make more space for the corral and people milling around.  It's always an adventure coming from Ripcord and making to hard right turn to get into the corral.


They could take an approach like Superstar where it really hugs the ground for a little while, but that would close off a good portion of the trail which I'm not sure would be a good idea either. Personally I haven't noticed Heaven's Gate's reliability issues this year but maybe I've just been lucky.


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Not sure why they would replace an already HSQ with a fixed grip,... That would be a major downgrade for that POD


I was just wondering because I assume a FGQ is significantly less expensive and easier to maintain.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They could take an approach like Superstar where it really hugs the ground for a little while, but that would close off a good portion of the trail which I'm not sure would be a good idea either. Personally I haven't noticed Heaven's Gate's reliability issues this year but maybe I've just been lucky.


My understanding is that the situation with the lift on superstar was not intentional.


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They could take an approach like Superstar where it really hugs the ground for a little while, but that would close off a good portion of the trail which I'm not sure would be a good idea either. Personally I haven't noticed Heaven's Gate's reliability issues this year but maybe I've just been lucky.


There were a number of days in March where it was stop n go.  I was legit worried I'd get stuck on the lift.


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## Smellytele (May 4, 2022)

Slidebrook87 said:


> They could take an approach like Superstar where it really hugs the ground for a little while, but that would close off a good portion of the trail which I'm not sure would be a good idea either. Personally I haven't noticed Heaven's Gate's reliability issues this year but maybe I've just been lucky.


If you haven’t noticed look back in this thread it has been mentioned down more than any lift on az.


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## KustyTheKlown (May 4, 2022)

i got stuck on heavens gate for nearly an hour. it was the Saturday before the late season 11" powder day. it had just started to snow. if it was the sunday i would have been so pissed.


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The NRX, former GMX, is now 32 years old.  I think it has served SB very well and has earned retirement.  Alterra is more interested in expanding Steamboat and Winter Park right now.  Those are shinier things than replacing NRX at SB.


and you know this how?
I'd heard NRX would be replaced next summer


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

djd66 said:


> It my favorite lift at Sugarbush -  no runout, all vertical and a lot of options.


agreed but you can feel how clunky it is when loading and unloading.


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## jimmywilson69 (May 4, 2022)

a 32 year old lift needs replaced


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## Smellytele (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> and you know this how?
> I'd heard NRX would be replaced next summer


ttb is the hater of all things Alterra


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> and you know this how?
> I'd heard NRX would be replaced next summer


GMX I was installed in 1990.  https://liftblog.com/sugarbush-vt/

As to WP and Steamboat, Alterra is dumping a lot of money into them.  WP's plans were circulated earlier this week.  Steamboat is in the second year of their base rebuild and lift expansion.  Big bucks going in there.


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## cdskier (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> and you know this how?
> I'd heard NRX would be replaced next summer


I wouldn't at all be surprised if you are right about what you heard. NRX isn't on Forest Service land if I recall correctly so they don't have to submit the same application to the FS that they had to start submitting already for HG. That's the only reason we "know" about HG already even though NRX could be planned as well.


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## ThatGuy (May 4, 2022)

Weren’t there a few lifts that were going to be replaced at various Alterra resorts before covid and its been radio silence on that since?


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Weren’t there a few lifts that were going to be replaced at various Alterra resorts before covid and its been radio silence on that since?


Such as Sunrise at Solitude.


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> GMX I was installed in 1990.  https://liftblog.com/sugarbush-vt/
> 
> As to WP and Steamboat, Alterra is dumping a lot of money into them.  WP's plans were circulated earlier this week.  Steamboat is in the second year of their base rebuild and lift expansion.  Big bucks going in there.


I don't know but Alterra is a big company which doesnt seem to be having cash flow issues.  It would seem to me that they have the wherewithal to make capital investments in their other assets while putting big bucks into WP and steamboat.  I mean, what's 10m dollars nowadays.


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## djd66 (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I was just wondering because I assume a FGQ is significantly less expensive and easier to maintain.


A FGQ is definitely cheaper,...  but that would be a horrible move for that POD.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2022)

I am OK with Alterra.  The have not really messed up Sugarbush and I get to ski all kinds of places on my pass for $800.  We are not Snowbird so we don't have an ax to grind. I am still waiting to pass final judgement but so far so good.


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## Hawk (May 4, 2022)

I would take a lift that works all the time over the current lift.  Just saying.


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## tumbler (May 4, 2022)

Take out Summit and extend GMX all the way to the top and have mid station loading and unloading like Collins at Alta (I know Collins is only loading at the turn)


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## cdskier (May 4, 2022)

djd66 said:


> A FGQ is definitely cheaper,...  but that would be a horrible move for that POD.


Yup...that would be one very long ride as a FGQ as well. Per Dopp's info on their website, with a loading carpet the max line speed is around 550 feet per minute. NRX is about 5700' long...so you're looking at 10+ minute ride as a FGQ (with carpet loading) vs the 5+ minute ride as a HSQ.


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## Newpylong (May 4, 2022)

A fixed grip is a non-starter on Northridge. As has been mentioned the profile is too long. If you're going to remove it and not replace with a HSQ it would be better off to remove it entirely and spend money on a new summit lift IMHO. However, no doubt if and when it's replaced it will be replaced in kind.

A new Dopp FGQ is a perfect fit for Heavens Gate though.


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## Newpylong (May 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> My understanding is that the situation with the lift on superstar was not intentional.



It absolutely was intentional, several towers from the flats up were lowered by Poma when it was rebuilt.


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## 180 (May 5, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> It absolutely was intentional, several towers from the flats up were lowered by Poma when it was rebuilt.


and that was a great move!


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## mikec142 (May 5, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I think a fixed-grip quad is really the most logical and appropriate choice for HG. You don't need a high speed lift up there. Lowering the profile to reduce wind issues in a few spots is a big upgrade. A brand new lift in and of itself is a rather significant upgrade as well as in theory it would be more reliable just by virtue of being a brand new lift.


Completely agree. 

Random fixed grip lift question.  Can they be sped up?  Is there some sort of known top end speed that if exceeded makes it too hard to load and unload?  I'd love to see Heaven's Gate and Summit run a bit faster.  There are times when I'm on the lift and it cold and feels like a long ride.  

One more question...does anyone know the speed of HG vs. Summit vs. Inverness.  Inverness feels like it's crawling.


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## Hawk (May 5, 2022)

Summit and Inverness I feel are equally as slow.  HG isi definately not as bad.  I know that they can run just a little faster but the have to be careful.  Too fast and they get complaints from people getting whacked in the back of the legs.


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## cdskier (May 5, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> Random fixed grip lift question.  Can they be sped up?  Is there some sort of known top end speed that if exceeded makes it too hard to load and unload?  I'd love to see Heaven's Gate and Summit run a bit faster.  There are times when I'm on the lift and it cold and feels like a long ride.
> 
> One more question...does anyone know the speed of HG vs. Summit vs. Inverness.  Inverness feels like it's crawling.



Per Dopp's specs, 550/ft/min is the top speed if you utilize a loading carpet (assuming I did my math right...they list it as 2.8 meters per second on their brochure for new lifts). Not sure of the line speeds on HG/Summit/Inverness. Liftblog has line speeds listed in their database on their website, but they seem wrong (all 3 of those are listed as in the 500-550 range which sounds too high considering that puts it in the max speed of a lift with carpet loading). Those could be original design spec speeds though and maybe they're simply not actually run at those speeds today.


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## mikec142 (May 5, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Summit and Inverness I feel are equally as slow.  HG isi definately not as bad.  I know that they can run just a little faster but the have to be careful.  Too fast and they get complaints from people getting whacked in the back of the legs.


Thanks.  I've definitely had some incredibly cold, slow rides on Summit and Inverness.

There was a day during the first covid season where there was a wind hold on pretty much the entire mountain except for Inverness.  I did about 7-8 solo rides up the lift (freezing my ass off) to explore Semi-Tough Woods.  Halfway up each ride I would say, this is the last run, but then the skiing would be so good that I would do another lap.


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## HowieT2 (May 5, 2022)

IIRC from when we were discussing the new valley house quad, the max recommended speed for a fixed grip without a carpet loader was something like 400-450 ft/min


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## SkiingInABlueDream (May 5, 2022)

Carpet loaders, ugh I don't like them. For some reason the loading always feels awkward to me. I've been skiing almost my entire life, I've self-bumped chairs for myself many times over the years (think fast moving old school doubles and inattentive liftys circa 30+ yrs ago). I'm not a gaper chair rider but for some reason carpet loading is usually not smooth for me


----------



## ThatGuy (May 5, 2022)

My girlfriend hates carpet loaders.
My bil almost fell off the lift on one.
I’ve never had a problem with them…seems to be a snowboarder issue in my anecdotal experience.


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## flakeydog (May 6, 2022)

For some reason the new VH quad often whacks the loadees. I feel it is slightly better than the 1st year or 2 they had it. Key seems to be have all riders lined up and it softens the blow a bit, just never be the one standing 2 feet behind the other 3 or you get creamed. They have a couple of these out at Bridger. I remember being there a few years ago and it was notable how much smoother the load was. It is possible that they ran those chairs a little slower since they were lower mountain mostly blue/green terrain but I cant say for sure.


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## HowieT2 (May 6, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> For some reason the new VH quad often whacks the loadees. I feel it is slightly better than the 1st year or 2 they had it. Key seems to be have all riders lined up and it softens the blow a bit, just never be the one standing 2 feet behind the other 3 or you get creamed. They have a couple of these out at Bridger. I remember being there a few years ago and it was notable how much smoother the load was. It is possible that they ran those chairs a little slower since they were lower mountain mostly blue/green terrain but I cant say for sure.


I take a step forward on the carpet before the chair gets me


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## drjeff (May 6, 2022)

Loading carpets, the concept that on paper seems like good thing, but when put into use by the general public, very oftens doesn't live up to the hype and often due to user error/apathy/ignorance, ends up caussing more issues than the benefits it can bring *IF* used properly...


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## Newpylong (May 6, 2022)

The carpet loader adds 50 FPM of LEGAL rope speed to the lift and is specified in ANSI B77.1 based on number of persons. 

Design speeds differ from lift to lift based on various factors (lift profile, motor HP, target ridership, etc). Liftblog and other sites are only going to know this number - its usually placarded at the bottom of the lift. They are not going to know the "dial a speed" that the operator either has it currently set to run at or what the various presets (normal, slow) equal in terms of FPM.

Hope this helps.

IMHO Summit and Inverness always seemed equal/equally slow to me. Actually all Poma FGQs from that era regardless of ski area feel around 400 FPM.


----------



## Hawk (May 6, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I take a step forward on the carpet before the chair gets me


Yes the trick is to have all 4 take one large step forward(like 3 or 4 feet) and it works much better.  I also take the left position and grab the left side hand rail to slow it down.


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## djd66 (May 6, 2022)

I take a step forward also,... seems like maybe the carpet is not running at the correct speed? (right position you get whacked if you don't grab the chair)


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## cdskier (May 6, 2022)

Odd...I rarely have a problem with the carpet loader not positioning me correctly. I didn't think I did anything special...but maybe I do subconsciously without even realizing it.


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## drjeff (May 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Odd...I rarely have a problem with the carpet loader not positioning me correctly. I didn't think I did anything special...but maybe I do subconsciously without even realizing it.



Likely you're just a "normal" person who can follow the instructions about how to properly use it, correctly!


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## Dickc (May 6, 2022)

If I time my “sit” just right, I do OK with a carpet load.  Otherwise, I get whacked in the calf right at the boot top, and it friggin hurts.  I think they should still bump the chairs to prevent getting whacked.  My other complaint is that as I sit, I frequently get the boot top caught under the lip of the chair as they are so low where they have to be low enough for kids to get on.  This is not exclusive to carpet loading chairs either!


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## Hawk (May 6, 2022)

If you haven't actually tried the chair how would you even know what we are talking about.


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## KustyTheKlown (May 6, 2022)

i dont understand why its so hard to look over your shoulder to see the incoming chair and place your hand around the back of your knee to bump the chair yourself. we all spend an inordinate amount of time on a skiing message board, are we really complaining about not knowing how to ride fixed grip chairlifts without help from a liftie?


----------



## Hawk (May 6, 2022)

We are not talking about a typical fixed grip chair.  We are talking about a carpet loader.
Also no one is complaining, we are offering advise.
I have ridden all kinds of carpet loaders.  The one at sugarbush is different so you have to pay attention.  its not hard but it is surely different.


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## KustyTheKlown (May 6, 2022)

yea, but also still really not complicated whatsoever. slide out. stand. wait. put your hand down to soften the impact if you want.


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## djd66 (May 6, 2022)

Hawk said:


> We are not talking about a typical fixed grip chair.  We are talking about a carpet loader.
> Also no one is complaining, we are offering advise.
> I have ridden all kinds of carpet loaders.  The one at sugarbush is different so you have to pay attention.  its not hard but it is surely different.


Agree,.. I have ridden plenty of carpet loaders out west and they function much differently.  In theory, the carpet should be running slightly slower than the line, I think the carpet on the VHQ is off.  I don't have an issue loading - it just whacks you if you do not know how to adjust properly.


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## djd66 (May 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> are we really complaining about not knowing how to ride fixed grip chairlifts without help from a liftie?


Its May,.. what else are we going to talk about?


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## Smellytele (May 6, 2022)

At least in the USA they tell you when to go. First one I ever rode on in chamonix they had no gates just little arrows on the carpet when to slide on to it. A lot of people didn’t fare too well and went off the 2-3 foot end. Quite comical.


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## Kingslug20 (May 6, 2022)

Want to get nailed by a lift..dont ski away fast enough from the F lift at Hunter...


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## Andrew B. (May 6, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I take a step forward on the carpet before the chair gets me


As I tell my wife
Shuffle shuffle

You don’t have to be way in front just in front of the guy next to you.


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## drjeff (May 6, 2022)

On this Mother's Day Weekend, I will be chivalrous and admit that with any fixed grip or carpet loading lift where "back of calf chair bang" is a possibility, I always hang back a bit and "take one for the team" 

The fact that I am 6'3" and my wife is 5'5" often is the difference between a non bumped chair catching me up near the top of my boot shell vs a straight on metal to soft tissue back of calf hit on her...

Gotta do what you gotta do


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## flakeydog (May 6, 2022)

So yes, it’s May and we are indeed talking about the subtle nuances of carpet loading chairs versus fixed grip. Move along if this does not appeal to you… anyway, no one should have to “take one for the team” or scoot ahead at the last second to leave an unsuspecting member to take the blow. Part of it is that the chair is restricted from too much movement (comes in on guides so it does not swing) so it comes in fast with no forgiveness. This is where a skilled chair bumper can load you smoothly with minimal impact. Probably a lost skill in this day in age.


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## Terry (May 7, 2022)

The carpet loader at Shawnee Peak works very well. I have ridden it thousands of times and can't remember ever getting whacked by the chair. They seem to have the carpet speed set just right for loading.


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## bigbob (May 7, 2022)

drjeff said:


> On this Mother's Day Weekend, I will be chivalrous and admit that with any fixed grip or carpet loading lift where "back of calf chair bang" is a possibility, I always hang back a bit and "take one for the team"
> 
> The fact that I am 6'3" and my wife is 5'5" often is the difference between a non bumped chair catching me up near the top of my boot shell vs a straight on metal to soft tissue back of calf hit on her...
> 
> Gotta do what you gotta do


Happy wife, happy life.


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## WinS (May 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Per Dopp's specs, 550/ft/min is the top speed if you utilize a loading carpet (assuming I did my math right...they list it as 2.8 meters per second on their brochure for new lifts). Not sure of the line speeds on HG/Summit/Inverness. Liftblog has line speeds listed in their database on their website, but they seem wrong (all 3 of those are listed as in the 500-550 range which sounds too high considering that puts it in the max speed of a lift with carpet loading). Those could be original design spec speeds though and maybe they're simply not actually run at those speeds today.


This is correct. All chairs have a max speed capacity. They run slower at times for various reasons such as windy conditions. However, the steepness of the Valley House unload causes a lot of first time riders and less advanced skiers to often fall if they do not stand and exit properly, so it is usually running slower than this. The fixed grips without a carpet do require a lift attendant who knows how to “bump” the chair properly. As I recall most at running around 400-450 per minute. Inverness is definitely the slowest. While no longer making the decision, I would vote for a carpet fixed grip quad at HG with a lower profile and beginning a bit more uphill to clear up any Downspout congestion. It would be less susceptible to windhold and less complicated from a maintenance perspective. If a high speed were used I think there would need to be greater spacing between the chairs in order not to overcrowd the downhill experience,


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## oldfartrider (May 8, 2022)

I’ve gotten into the habit of reaching down and grabbing a chairlift with my hand when boarding the chair. Ive never gotten whacked by a chair on my leg since adopting this method


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## Kingslug20 (May 8, 2022)

Yup..thats the ticket..


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## ThatGuy (May 8, 2022)

Always do that as well…fixed grip or not


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## Slidebrook87 (May 9, 2022)

Call me crazy but I've always felt as though Inverness is the fastest of the fixed grips at Sugarbush, and a simple math calculation proves this. Granted this is not entirely accurate most likely but by dividing the length by the ride time, it gives you 493 ft/min, and in recent years it has felt every bit of that. It's pretty tricky to load at that speed as well. Definitely feels faster than Summit though.


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## cdskier (May 13, 2022)

New blog post up that mentions a little bit about the capital improvements: https://blog.sugarbush.com/mountain/thank-you-for-a-great-season-2/

Here's the relevant info:


> While we are excited about opening up this summer, we have already started work projects and improvements on the mountain for next winter. On the lift maintenance side, we’re investing additional capital into our lift system. The fully staffed maintenance team has already started getting everything ready to roll for next winter (and this summer for mountain biking and weddings). On the snowmaking side, we’re putting in over 9 miles of new snowmaking pipe in areas like Easy Rider, Pushover, and Reverse Traverse at Lincoln Peak and the entire Summit Quad area over at Mt. Ellen. These upgrades will allow for better, faster, and earlier snowmaking next season in those areas. A new cabin cat, new winch cat, and new free groomer are just a few other examples of additional investments we’re making on the mountain for next season.
> 
> 
> Looking further ahead, we have a lot of other capital projects that we are working to get planned and permitted. Replacing lifts, employee housing, further snowmaking upgrades, and rebuilding the Glen House at Mt. Ellen are all currently in this planning phases. When we have more to share about those developments, we’ll let you know.



A little light on details, but better than not saying anything at all about what is being done. I wonder if along with the new snowmaking pipe on Easy Rider and Pushover whether they're also going to put in new HKD towers and Klik hydrants like they did on Northstar at ME last year. Perhaps the pipe replacement at the summit of ME will allow FIS to get a bit of snow-making again going forward too.


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## WinS (May 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> New blog post up that mentions a little bit about the capital improvements: https://blog.sugarbush.com/mountain/thank-you-for-a-great-season-2/
> 
> Here's the relevant info:
> 
> ...


Yes to the Kliks. I am at NSAA Annual Convention and just looked at the Klink. It simplifies and speeds things up increfills. A lot safer for the Snowmakers too. Alterra really came through on CAPEX.


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## cdskier (May 13, 2022)

WinS said:


> Yes to the Kliks. I am at NSAA Annual Convention and just looked at the Klink. It simplifies and speeds things up increfills. A lot safer for the Snowmakers too. Alterra really came through on CAPEX.



Good to hear. Those are great trails for a setup like that!


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## ss20 (May 13, 2022)

A fixed grip double is going to run as fast or faster than a carpet loader.  Quads run slowest, followed by triple, double, etc.  

I believe the single at mrg cruises in the high 500s or low 600s iirc...I asked the liftie a few years ago.

Valley House should've been replaced with another double chair imho... it'd of been as fast as the carpet loader but without the misloads.  Cheapest option too unless dopp/poma no longer keep double chairs as a normal order item which would not surprise me.


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## cdskier (May 13, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Valley House should've been replaced with another double chair imho... it'd of been as fast as the carpet loader but without the misloads.  Cheapest option too unless dopp/poma no longer keep double chairs as a normal order item which would not surprise me.


I don't understand the justification for having replaced that chair with a double instead of a quad at all. You might be the first person I've ever heard suggest that is what should have been done with valley house. I think the fixed grip quad with carpet was a perfect fit there and it was a rather major upgrade at the time at SB for that part of the mountain.


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## ss20 (May 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't understand the justification for having replaced that chair with a double instead of a quad at all. You might be the first person I've ever heard suggest that is what should have been done with valley house. I think the fixed grip quad with carpet was a perfect fit there and it was a rather major upgrade at the time at SB for that part of the mountain.



Eh... I'm in the camp that doesn't like carpets and believe that they increase the ride time in reality with mis-loads... even at an "advanced cliental" mountain like SB.  I think a double running at 500fpm would've been ideal from a speed standpoint and would've been fine for capacity.  In my experience with SB....  peanuts compared to yours... I've never waited more than 15 chairs for Valley House and frequently just ski on, and it just seems overkill for that chair to be a quad from a capacity standpoint.  The unload is just horrifically tight for that many people on a chair and as Win said they don't even run it as fast as they can to limit the collateral damage up top.  A double would've been able to go at the same speed if not a bit faster and would have less mis-loads.  

But hey, it's there, and it will be there for the next 50ish years.  I doubt either of us will see it's replacement so it's moot!


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## cdskier (May 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Eh... I'm in the camp that doesn't like carpets and believe that they increase the ride time in reality with mis-loads... even at an "advanced cliental" mountain like SB.  I think a double running at 500fpm would've been ideal from a speed standpoint and would've been fine for capacity.  In my experience with SB....  peanuts compared to yours... I've never waited more than 15 chairs for Valley House and frequently just ski on, and it just seems overkill for that chair to be a quad from a capacity standpoint.  The unload is just horrifically tight for that many people on a chair and as Win said they don't even run it as fast as they can to limit the collateral damage up top.  A double would've been able to go at the same speed if not a bit faster and would have less mis-loads.
> 
> But hey, it's there, and it will be there for the next 50ish years.  I doubt either of us will see it's replacement so it's moot!



I think the "misload" issue is greatly exaggerated (at least as far as actually being an issue to the point that it causes a stop of the lift). Honestly I see Super Bravo stop more for misloads on weekends than VH. I'm a bit confused about the unload being "horrifically tight". There's more room at the top of VH than there is at the top of HG. Win said it was a bit steep for some guests, which I'd say is a different issue than "tight" (personally I'd argue they should be skiing GH, not VH if they have issues with handling the VH unload...unless GH is on hold for some reason). I never even really thought about it being steep prior to your comment making me go back and re-read what Win posted earlier in this thread. GH and SB are pretty flat unloads...so I guess comparatively speaking it is "steep", but really nothing at all that should be a factor in thinking the lift would have been better as a double vs quad.

From a capacity standpoint...I think there's several points to be made:
1) One of the intentions of installing a quad was to increase utilization of the VH pod as it was often felt it was underutilized (not necessarily sure I agree, although that could just be my selfishness in not wanting more people skiing Moonshine, Twist, Eden, etc...but that was a thought that went into the decision for a quad from what I remember).
2) The VH lift is your primary backup to service Gadd peak (and allow HG access) if SB is down for some reason. This reason alone justifies it being a quad vs double.
3) Even if there are short waits of only a handful of chairs or it is ski on, a good % of chairs on the line are usually still carrying people on a busy weekend. If the lift was a double with less capacity, you'd certainly have a line. Personally when SB has a line and VH doesn't, I often jump on VH to lap that pod a bit. Sure SB gets you access to a lot more terrain*, but I prefer skiing over standing in line.
4) *The upcoming re-grading and addition of snow-making to Reverse Traverse could be a rather significant shift in people's thinking with riding VH. That change will make it substantially easier to access HG, and the bottom 2/3 of all the trails off Super Bravo from VH. VH being a quad should really work well together with this plan. If a double had been installed instead, we'd all be complaining how it was a poor decision (and maybe they wouldn't even think the RT change would be worth it in that case if VH was still only a double).

Honestly with the lone exception of Castlerock where you intentionally want to limit capacity, it wouldn't make sense to have kept any other lift at a resort like SB a double during replacement projects. There's just so many benefits of a quad over a double beyond even just capacity.


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## Newpylong (May 14, 2022)

No legitimate justification for reinstallation of a special order double which would have cost nearly as much as a quad and not provided a backup to Bravo.


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## Newpylong (May 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> New blog post up that mentions a little bit about the capital improvements: https://blog.sugarbush.com/mountain/thank-you-for-a-great-season-2/
> 
> Here's the relevant info:
> 
> ...



I think we can deduce that with non-operational snowmaking on Upper FIS, and specific language mentioning the entire summit quad area, this is a valid assumption. If it was not the case they likely would have said Rim Run. In my recollection all of that pipe is original to the Ellen build out (which long predated the ASC work they did over at Lincoln).


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## teleo (May 14, 2022)

Not sure about the changes to RT being an improvement.  Partly selfish as I have no problem with the slight uphill, but I'm on tele.  My bigger fear is putting more cross traffic on murphys, birdland and jester.  Killington had a lot of problems with cross traffic trails and eventually put up nets to close them and built bridges.  Let's not killington the bush.


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## Newpylong (May 14, 2022)

I would fathom to say you could see how it goes and if the cross traffic is overly problematic you can always close it unless Bravo isn't running. It does take away with the point but safety first.

However the issue with Killington wasn't necessarily the cross traffic but the rider level of that traffic: novice. Can't see that being the case with those looking to get closer to HG on RT.


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## cdskier (May 14, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I would fathom to say you could see how it goes and if the cross traffic is overly problematic you can always close it unless Bravo isn't running. It does take away with the point but safety first.
> 
> However the issue with Killington wasn't necessarily the cross traffic but the rider level of that traffic: novice. Can't see that being the case with those looking to get closer to HG on RT.



Yea...I'm not exactly expecting to see a huge volume of skiers suddenly using RT (especially when Bravo is running). Certainly there will be an increase from the handful of people that use RT today when SB is running. But the amount of people coming off the VHQ at any one time isn't exactly a high volume either. And everyone isn't going to take RT at that point. Some will still be skiing the VH trails. Very valid point as well about the type of skiers on the K cross trails. I don't foresee that lower level of skier having a need/desire to take VHQ to RT even after it is re-graded and gets snowmaking added.


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## djd66 (May 14, 2022)

Reverse Traverse is no snowshed crossover and never will be - no matter how much grading gets done.


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## WinS (May 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I think we can deduce that with non-operational snowmaking on Upper FIS, and specific language mentioning the entire summit quad area, this is a valid assumption. If it was not the case they likely would have said Rim Run. In my recollection all of that pipe is original to the Ellen build out (which long predated the ASC work they did over at Lincoln).


Another pump I believe is also in the plan so more high elevation pressure will allow for more GPM there. That’s big.


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## WinS (May 15, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Reverse Traverse is no snowshed crossover and never will be - no matter how much grading gets done.


Consider one other benefit. Snowmaking from RT through Heaven’s Gate allows early season access to HG instead of only Downspout.


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## teleo (May 15, 2022)

I hope you are all correct.  Good point about RT not being snowshed crossover.  We will see.

Win, is the snowmaking continuing all the way across HG traverse to HG?  That alone, if they blow top of lower grinder,  would help tremendously with the early season deathspout issue.


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## WinS (May 15, 2022)

teleo said:


> I hope you are all correct.  Good point about RT not being snowshed crossover.  We will see.
> 
> Win, is the snowmaking continuing all the way across HG traverse to HG?  That alone, if they blow top of lower grinder,  would help tremendously with the early season deathspout issue.


Last time I spoke to John Hammond this was still the plan. This does have to go through Act 250 permitting. It shouldn’t be a problem but you never know.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 18, 2022)

WinS said:


> Last time I spoke to John Hammond this was still the plan. This does have to go through Act 250 permitting. It shouldn’t be a problem but you never know.


Really happy to hear this is being done.  Always seemed like one of those low-hanging fruit type items for people who were familiar with the mountain.   Taleo is exactly right on how that's a potential game changer for early season options.  My guess is that they'd do Domino Chute>Lower OG>RT but it opens up options as varied as Birdland and even an intermediate cruiser in "Middle" Jester if they want to invest in that effort.

Agree RT will never be Snowshed Crossover b/c it isn't a critical thoroughfare connecting pods with large capacities/base areas.  The only time RT is critical for switching pods is when there would be minimal cross-traffic (i.e. Bravo not running).  But regrading before Murphy's and also before intersecting with Domino will make a big difference in the convenience it offers.


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## Hawk (May 19, 2022)

I totally understand the reasoning for this and know it will be an improvement for most.  Selfishly I have to say there were days I liked it the way it is.  I have never had an issue with the mild uphill in the middle.  When Bravo went down it was a filter for all the lazy people.  Skiing Birdland, Murphys and OG with very few people was cool.


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## cdskier (May 19, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I totally understand the reasoning for this and know it will be an improvement for most.  Selfishly I have to say there were days I liked it the way it is.  I have never had an issue with the mild uphill in the middle.  When Bravo went down it was a filter for all the lazy people.  Skiing Birdland, Murphys and OG with very few people was cool.



Hah...yea I get the selfish feeling too. I loved on days that SB was down but VH and HG were open heading straight to HG via RT. There were times it was just me and a handful of other people lapping HG for a while. I think it was a combination of simply laziness of people not wanting to do the uphill on RT and some people not even realizing they could get to HG that way.


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## djd66 (May 19, 2022)

cdskier said:


> some people not even realizing they could get to HG that way.


personally, I think thats the biggest factor. A lot of people get off the chair and see Steins and head the other way - not knowing RT is even there.


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## cdskier (May 19, 2022)

djd66 said:


> personally, I think thats the biggest factor. A lot of people get off the chair and see Steins and head the other way - not knowing RT is even there.


Yea...I've definitely been on VH with people when SB was down that had no idea you could still get to HG via RT. Or I've also been on HG when SB reopens and tell people I've been lapping it for a while with it being empty and they're completely surprised/confused I was able to get there without SB!


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## Hawk (May 19, 2022)

Also Castlerock for that matter.


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## tumbler (Jun 3, 2022)

Check out the Walt's camera, there is a crap ton of new pipe up there.  Glad to see some more improvements happening over there.


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## cdskier (Jun 29, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Check out the Walt's camera, there is a crap ton of new pipe up there.  Glad to see some more improvements happening over there.


I keep peaking at it periodically. Looks like a lot of good progress made. They a substantial amount of the individual pipes that were staged by Walts connected into larger sections and dragged to the bottom of Lower Rim Run now. I also see a backhoe digging up along upper Rim Run right by the 2nd FIS entrance.


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## slatham (Jun 29, 2022)

What is the plan at Mt Ellen with the new pipe?


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## cdskier (Jun 29, 2022)

slatham said:


> What is the plan at Mt Ellen with the new pipe?


Completely replacing all of the summit area piping if I recall correctly.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 29, 2022)

Woohooo,  is this an upgrade?  https://www.valleyreporter.com/inde...ng-snowmaking-water-withdrawal-infrastructure


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## cdskier (Jun 29, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Woohooo,  is this an upgrade?  https://www.valleyreporter.com/inde...ng-snowmaking-water-withdrawal-infrastructure



Sort of...It provides more long-term reliability of the dam between the pond and the Mad River from my understanding. The original plan was to do that particular dam replacement back in summer 2020. Not sure if it was delayed due to COVID or permitting delays.


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## Newpylong (Jun 30, 2022)

Looks like Tatro's equipment, can't tell for sure though. If it is, they are the best in the business.

It looks like Upper FIS was trimmed back extreme skier's left in spots behind the current pipe, hopefully that bodes well for that trail being replaced.


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## tumbler (Jun 30, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Looks like Tatro's equipment, can't tell for sure though. If it is, they are the best in the business.
> 
> It looks like Upper FIS was trimmed back extreme skier's left in spots behind the current pipe, hopefully that bodes well for that trail being replaced.


It's Tatro


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## Hawk (Jul 9, 2022)

Took a walk aroung the Lincoln Peak base yesterday.  They are making headway with the installation of the new snowmaking pipe on easy rider and pushover in the beginner area.  They also had some guys working on the village chair.  It looked like they were inspecting the grips on each chair.  I assumed it was the standard sumertime inspection and adjustment of the grips.  The base was fairly quiet.  They had Rumbles open and the lunch truck.  Saw a couple of mountain bikers and a few others.


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## Newpylong (Jul 15, 2022)

Looks like Upper FIS, Panorama, Rim Run and Looking Good all getting that new pipe plus HKDs. Great news...


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

Not sure if folks saw this or it was noted, but the plan for Reverse Traverse is actually a new section of HG Traverse from Organgrinder down to the base of HG:  https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/SPTemp/007_ProposedOverallSite and EPSCPlans_SugarbushReverseTraversRealignment(4 Sheets)_2022-06-24.pdf


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## cdskier (Aug 11, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Not sure if folks saw this or it was noted, but the plan for Reverse Traverse is actually a new section of HG Traverse from Organgrinder down to the base of HG:  https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/SPTemp/007_ProposedOverallSite and EPSCPlans_SugarbushReverseTraversRealignment(4 Sheets)_2022-06-24.pdf


I was wondering how they were going to get Reverse Traverse re-graded...this explains it. Although from OG to the base of HG looks like it isn't really a new section. The big difference is RT itself being moved and re-cut on more of an angle from the top of Stein's down to an exit on Murphy's lower down hill from the current RT exit. Essentially it goes right through part of Egan's Woods now with the proposed plans.


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

I guess it's hard to tell then, this map has what you describe (New RT realignment lower, keeping existing HG Traverse): https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/S...ugarbushReverseTraverseRealignment_6-2022.pdf

But the map I linked to above has the opposite (keep RT, new HG traverse higher up).

It looks like one of the alternatives got uploaded as well as the actual option they want to do.


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## cdskier (Aug 11, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I guess it's hard to tell then, this map has what you describe (New RT realignment lower, keeping existing HG Traverse): https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/S...ugarbushReverseTraverseRealignment_6-2022.pdf
> 
> But the map I linked to above has the opposite (keep RT, new HG traverse higher up).
> 
> It looks like one of the alternatives got uploaded as well as the actual option they want to do.



Maybe I'm confused...but both those maps show the same thing from what I see. The only difference is they are flipped in that in one document the base of the HG chair is in the upper left hand corner while in the other map the top of Stein's/VHQ is in the upper left hand corner. Both show a new RT route and the same HGT route.


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

Oh damnit lol. Today is not my day, you're 100% right. That should have been obvious as that's the uphill section.


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## cdskier (Aug 11, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Oh damnit lol. Today is not my day, you're 100% right. That should have been obvious as that's the uphill section.



LOL. It was weird to see two different angles of the plan though. I had to do a double-take on that.


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## TSQURD (Aug 12, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Essentially it goes right through part of Egan's Woods now with the proposed plans.


 that would be a shame


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## ss20 (Aug 12, 2022)

TSQURD said:


> that would be a shame



Yeah that sucks.  15' wide too, yikes.  I'm hoping they try to cut it so it's not all 10' tall rock dropping onto/off of the traverse but I'm not holding my breath.


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## ss20 (Aug 12, 2022)

Reminds me of Killington ruining lots of the Snowdon area glades with bikes paths.


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## teleo (Aug 12, 2022)

They finally spend some money and this is what we get?  Besides the affect to egans,  that intersection by jester/murphys/birdland is allready bad enough. Isn't that named callies corner for a bad reason?  So lets add more cross traffic that is motivated to keep speed to make it past the flatspot by downspout.  Brilliant.  The Killification of da bush.

Would be much happier if they just added snowmaking from OG thru to HG to help with the early season deathspout situation.


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## cdskier (Aug 12, 2022)

teleo said:


> They finally spend some money and this is what we get?  Besides the affect to egans,  that intersection by jester/murphys/birdland is allready bad enough. Isn't that named callies corner for a bad reason?  So lets add more cross traffic that is motivated to keep speed to make it past the flatspot by downspout.  Brilliant.  The Killification of da bush.
> 
> Would be much happier if they just added snowmaking from OG thru to HG to help with the early season deathspout situation.



Callie's Corner is at MRG...

I'm guessing you're referring to Carpy's Corner (in memory of ski patroller Bill Carpenter). However Carpy's Corner is at the intersection of Lower Birdland and Murphy's. The new cutover for RT would come in slightly above the last crossover spot from Murphy's to Birdland (where Lower Jester makes the big wide turn just before it gets to Birdland)


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## Newpylong (Aug 13, 2022)

teleo said:


> They finally spend some money and this is what we get?  Besides the affect to egans,  that intersection by jester/murphys/birdland is allready bad enough. Isn't that named callies corner for a bad reason?  So lets add more cross traffic that is motivated to keep speed to make it past the flatspot by downspout.  Brilliant.  The Killification of da bush.
> 
> Would be much happier if they just added snowmaking from OG thru to HG to help with the early season deathspout situation.


Don't think they're doing it to impress anybody, the operational reasons are listed in the application. Highly doubtful its going to see much if any traffic unless early season or Bravo is down. It's an insurance policy.


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## teleo (Aug 13, 2022)

You're right, Carpy's corner.  And this crossover is higher up.  Still not a fan of cross traffic.  I stopped going to Killington 15 years ago for a number of reasons, that being one of them.

I hope you're all correct that this won't get used much.


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## cdskier (Aug 13, 2022)

If Super Bravo is running, I don't really see a reason why a lot of people would intentionally take the VH chair to RT to access the terrain on the Super Bravo side. It just doesn't seem efficient... I'm sure a few people will, but I can't see it being a significant number.


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## slatham (Aug 13, 2022)

IMHO this improvement is to allow connection from VH to HG when Bravo is down. Maybe some other circumstances where they don’t want Bravo dumping tons of people onto Downspout when that is the only trail open from Bravo?


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## skiur (Aug 14, 2022)

teleo said:


> You're right, Carpy's corner.  And this crossover is higher up.  Still not a fan of cross traffic.  I stopped going to Killington 15 years ago for a number of reasons, that being one of them.
> 
> I hope you're all correct that this won't get used much.


K had been removing cross traffic for a few years now.


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## djd66 (Aug 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> If Super Bravo is running, I don't really see a reason why a lot of people would intentionally take the VH chair to RT to access the terrain on the Super Bravo side. It just doesn't seem efficient... I'm sure a few people will, but I can't see it being a significant number.


Completely agree. Most people coming up VH don’t even know RT exists as all they see is the Steins head wall and turn around.


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## Newpylong (Aug 14, 2022)

Yah even if the "new" trail is more in your face I can't see a lot of people heading down it.


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## Hawk (Aug 15, 2022)

Can someone seend a fresh link to this map.  I can not open it.


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## Mak (Aug 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Can someone seend a fresh link to this map.  I can not open it.


Yup. The link doesn't work anymore.


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## cdskier (Aug 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Can someone seend a fresh link to this map.  I can not open it.



The new design of the ACT 250 database website makes it difficult to link directly to a document for a particular project. When you open a document, it loads it to a temp folder for some reason and after some period of time that temp folder gets deleted (and the link points to that temp file location).

So here's the link to the project entry:





						Act 250 - 5W1045-47
					






					anrweb.vt.gov
				




From there you can just click on the document you want to see (in this case the ones with the proposed maps are 007_ProposedOverallSite and EPSCPlans_SugarbushReverseTraversRealignment(4 Sheets)_2022-06-24.pdf and 005_OverallSitePlan_SugarbushReverseTraverseRealignment_6-2022.pdf).


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## Hawk (Aug 15, 2022)

That's better.  Thanks.
So this alignment will kill the top 30 to 40 yards of Egans woods.  Probably that first steep pitch.


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## Hawk (Aug 15, 2022)

The mountain ops people that I spoke to said this was insurance to move people around when Bravo goes down.  Also another option for beginner/Intermedeate types instead of just gong down snow ball.  They can now do middle murphys, birdland, jester, organgrinder or combos of each.  Not a huge fan of this but for selfish reasons.  When bravo went down, for the people that didn't mind the uphill section,  it took a while for people to get accoss to HG or Castlerock which meant good uncrowded skiing.


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## cdskier (Aug 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The mountain ops people that I spoke to said this was insurance to move people around when Bravo goes down.  Also another option for beginner/Intermedeate types instead of just gong down snow ball.  They can now do middle murphys, birdland, jester, organgrinder or combos of each.  Not a huge fan of this but for selfish reasons.  When bravo went down, for the people that didn't mind the uphill section,  it took a while for people to get accoss to HG or Castlerock which meant good uncrowded skiing.



Hah...yea...I have those same selfish reasons for not necessarily seeing a need for the RT part of this change (I'm fine with adding snow-making to HG Traverse though to provide a more reliable alternative to DS).


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## Mak (Aug 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The mountain ops people that I spoke to said this was insurance to move people around when Bravo goes down.  Also another option for beginner/Intermedeate types instead of just gong down snow ball.  They can now do middle murphys, birdland, jester, organgrinder or combos of each.  Not a huge fan of this but for selfish reasons.  When bravo went down, for the people that didn't mind the uphill section,  it took a while for people to get accoss to HG or Castlerock which meant good uncrowded skiing.


Makes sense. Working (as an Ambassador) put me at the the top of VH when Bravo went down, basically to prevent the pileups at the top because folks were going back and forth in front of the unloading area like crazy to get to RT. I was constantly asked about ways to get over the HG.


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## slatham (Aug 17, 2022)

Mak said:


> Makes sense. Working (as an Ambassador) put me at the the top of VH when Bravo went down, basically to prevent the pileups at the top because folks were going back and forth in front of the unloading area like crazy to get to RT. I was constantly asked about ways to get over the HG.



When HGT is open they should have a sign atop VH with a big arrow and saying "Heavens Gate Lift" and "Easiest way down". Well as long as HGT to Jester is easier than Snowball, which I think it will be.


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## Hawk (Aug 17, 2022)

No they shouldn't.  ;-)


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## Mak (Aug 18, 2022)

slatham said:


> When HGT is open they should have a sign atop VH with a big arrow and saying "Heavens Gate Lift" and "Easiest way down". Well as long as HGT to Jester is easier than Snowball, which I think it will be.


Not for nothin, but lots of people don't read the signs no matter how BIG you make them....;-)


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## cdskier (Sep 21, 2022)

FWIW, the ACT 250 permit for the new RT/HGT alignment is expected to be issued unless someone files a comment raising a noteworthy issue by October 11th. Based on how late the permit is being issued, I have doubts over whether they're even going to still do that for this season with how little time would be left. As of the last letter from Sugarbush to the ACT 250 District Commission in early September, they were asking for the approval ASAP so they can still potentially do it this year. But not sure if mid-October for issuance of the permit meets SB's definition of "ASAP" from a couple weeks ago. GMNF has already given their approval.


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## WinS (Sep 21, 2022)

It is still possible. I haven’t checked with anyone at the Mountain recently, but I think it could still happen. The snowmaking pipe other than crossing Domino will be above ground and the route uses a lot of existing trail network. Challenging but still possible IMHO.


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## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2022)

I am sure they did wish they could have it done while Tatro was still on site...


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## djd66 (Sep 25, 2022)

Sugarbush Hops Fest - https://www.sugarbush.com/things-to-do/events-calendar/fresh-hops-fest

Has anyone been?  $75 seems really steep for 12 - 5oz pours


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## WinS (Sep 28, 2022)

One option is to possibly  complete part of the work. For instance add snowmaking across Heaven’s Gate Traverse up to Murphy’s and complete the rest next summer. Having an alternative to Downspout would be a big plus.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2022)

WinS said:


> One option is to possibly  complete part of the work. For instance add snowmaking across Heaven’s Gate Traverse up to Murphy’s and complete the rest next summer. Having an alternative to Downspout would be a big plus.


Yea...doing at least that part first if there's no time for the entire project would make a lot of sense. That's probably the much easier part to get done as well with limited time since you don't need to cut an entirely new trail like you do with the Reverse Traverse realignment part.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Sugarbush Hops Fest - https://www.sugarbush.com/things-to-do/events-calendar/fresh-hops-fest
> 
> Has anyone been?  $75 seems really steep for 12 - 5oz poors


I said the same thing about the price for the Brewgrass fest this year. At least with this one you're getting some unique/special beers though. Still not quite worth it from my perspective.


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## teleo (Sep 28, 2022)

WinS said:


> One option is to possibly  complete part of the work. For instance add snowmaking across Heaven’s Gate Traverse up to Murphy’s and complete the rest next summer. Having an alternative to Downspout would be a big plus.


I'd be happy if that's all they ever did of this project.


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## Kingslug20 (Sep 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I said the same thing about the price for the Brewgrass fest this year. At least with this one you're getting some unique/special beers though. Still not quite worth it from my perspective.


Any food?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2022)

FWIW Jay is doing a similar event for $30.  Same deal--12 samples and a glass. 






						13TH ANNUAL BEAN & BREW FESTIVAL | Jay Peak Resort
					

Some of the finest locally-roasted coffees coupled with New England’s finest beers, ciders, and more.




					jaypeakresort.com
				




Alterra just did a similar event at Deer Valley and it was also on the $75 range.  Five years ago it would have been a no-brainer to go as it was the full Deer Valley experience.  Now it is just average at best and overpriced.  No thanks.  I told my wife we would pass.  We went to a Deer Valley Concert this summer.  We usually go to one every year as it was always fun and the food was amazing and reasonably priced.  This year the service sucked, we saw event staff getting into fights with the audience (this was NOT a heavy metal show--it was the fucking Utah Symphony Orchestra) the beer was $14 for an 8oz pour in a cheap plastic cup, and the event was just not the same.  They are a complete shadow of what they once were.


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## bill-now (Oct 4, 2022)

Some new snow making guns in the LP parking lot. It looks like they are pouring a concrete foundation for the snow cannon at the base of Easy Rider.


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## Hawk (Oct 4, 2022)

I have not check around with my people lately but there has been a buch of work going on.  it looks like they dug a huge trench across the bottom of Spring Fling going over to Racers Edge.  Maybe a new snowmaking line?  I guess all will be revealed on Saturday at the meeting.  I saw all the guns.   I like the look of all the new tower guns.


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2022)

I love seeing more new HKD guns.


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## tumbler (Oct 4, 2022)

Hopefully they all have hoses too so switchovers can be faster and more efficient.


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## slatham (Oct 4, 2022)

Like the Klick hydrants/guns - wonder where they will go. Looks like 20 of them.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2022)

Good to see they've gone with HKD instead of more of the snowlogic lawn sprinklers...


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## ceo (Oct 4, 2022)

50. They're packaged in alternating directions, you can see the heads at both ends. One rack of 30, one of 20.


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## IceEidolon (Oct 4, 2022)

Most of those look like Klik semiauto hydrant setups based on the small valve blocks and the rack of Klik hydrants. Those start up as fast as a guy can walk from one gun to the next, and they're the nicest manual gun IMO on the market. 

Looks like some portables hiding in the back, too, and obviously the fan arm. That's a right respectable amount of firepower.


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## Newpylong (Oct 4, 2022)

I wasnt always suprised their fans haven't made more inroads they were my favorite by far. The simplicity and ability to change the throw from fire hose to traditional plume is amazing.


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## IceEidolon (Oct 4, 2022)

Guys I worked with demoed one and liked it until it got marginal. If a tower can't make half decent snow at 27 degrees pointed up to the sky with the wind behind it, a lot of places aren't interested - the Diablo has that glaring weakness in an otherwise darn impressive package.

I got to try a 30 Amp Halo model at Roundtop and was impressed by the throw, but I hear there are icing issues with that ring and nozzle combo. 

Then there's the cost of buying another several grand if you get both nozzle setups.

I wish you could valve the main bulk nozzle all the way off, with the nuc water supply running a few very small primary bulks... But that's more to fabricate and drain.


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## Newpylong (Oct 5, 2022)

That is true. We were an all air/water hill with only a few carriage fans so it was not noticable because they all were making slop in those temps lol.


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2022)

Mr Skiology know-it-all "broke" the news on FB that Sugarbush is adding snowmaking to Reverse Traverse and plans to replace HG next year. He claims these have not yet been announced by Sugarbush (false at least on the Reverse Traverse part for sure as that was announced in May by John Hammond).

He also apparently thinks SB will move the base of HG down to the bottom of Lower DS by the entrance to CR because "_the only way that Reverse Traverse can get to Heaven's Gate is to extend that lift down to where Castle Rock's bottom terminal is, and they do line up pretty nicely!" _I guess he's never looked at a trail map of SB and hasn't seen the actual proposed plans for the RT/HGT project which would clearly show the snow-making being added to HGT with no change in alignment to that part. I see absolutely no value in extending HG that much further downhill. It would just make a longer ride time and serve no additional useful terrain. You'd also have to clear quite a bit of space to make a new base terminal and loading area. I think he's wrong on that assumption...


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## Hawk (Oct 7, 2022)

We will know all tomorrow.  If they plan to replace HG they had better get going on approvals and ordering things.  I would bet it is too late for next year if they have not started as of yet.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 7, 2022)

SO Mr Weather know it all is now Mr Lift know it all?


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## slatham (Oct 7, 2022)

The guy puts it out there like it’s  a fact, yet not publicly known. When in actuality it’s a guess, based a few facts combined with little knowledge of the hill in question (or of the approval process).


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 7, 2022)

yeah He's a tool...


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2022)

slatham said:


> The guy puts it out there like it’s  a fact, yet not publicly known. When in actuality it’s a guess, based a few facts combined with little knowledge of the hill in question (or of the approval process).


When I saw the "headline" I thought maybe there was something I missed. Then I read his "logic" lol


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## tumbler (Oct 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Mr Skiology know-it-all "broke" the news on FB that Sugarbush is adding snowmaking to Reverse Traverse and plans to replace HG next year. He claims these have not yet been announced by Sugarbush (false at least on the Reverse Traverse part for sure as that was announced in May by John Hammond).
> 
> He also apparently thinks SB will move the base of HG down to the bottom of Lower DS by the entrance to CR because "_the only way that Reverse Traverse can get to Heaven's Gate is to extend that lift down to where Castle Rock's bottom terminal is, and they do line up pretty nicely!" _I guess he's never looked at a trail map of SB and hasn't seen the actual proposed plans for the RT/HGT project which would clearly show the snow-making being added to HGT with no change in alignment to that part. I see absolutely no value in extending HG that much further downhill. It would just make a longer ride time and serve no additional useful terrain. You'd also have to clear quite a bit of space to make a new base terminal and loading area. I think he's wrong on that assumption...


The bottom terminal needs to move up Ripcord from its current location so the corral can work better.


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2022)

tumbler said:


> The bottom terminal needs to move up Ripcord from its current location so the corral can work better.


I'd be fine with it being moved up slightly. Although I also think the corral this past season worked pretty well most days once they figured out the optimal configuration unless it was extremely crowded.


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## Newpylong (Oct 7, 2022)

Glad I have not met/followed this fellow. Sounds like we would be oil and water haha.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 7, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Glad I have not met/followed this fellow. Sounds like we would be oil and water haha.



Well, he has a tendency to ban people who challenge his "expertise", so your relationship would be short lived.  Haha


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## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Mr Skiology know-it-all "broke" the news on FB that Sugarbush is adding snowmaking to Reverse Traverse and plans to replace HG next year. He claims these have not yet been announced by Sugarbush (false at least on the Reverse Traverse part for sure as that was announced in May by John Hammond).
> 
> He also apparently thinks SB will move the base of HG down to the bottom of Lower DS by the entrance to CR because "_the only way that Reverse Traverse can get to Heaven's Gate is to extend that lift down to where Castle Rock's bottom terminal is, and they do line up pretty nicely!" _I guess he's never looked at a trail map of SB and hasn't seen the actual proposed plans for the RT/HGT project which would clearly show the snow-making being added to HGT with no change in alignment to that part. I see absolutely no value in extending HG that much further downhill. It would just make a longer ride time and serve no additional useful terrain. You'd also have to clear quite a bit of space to make a new base terminal and loading area. I think he's wrong on that assumption...


FWIW LiftBlog is also listing HG as a likely replacement in 2023.  That’s all they say.


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, he has a tendency to ban people who challenge his "expertise", so your relationship would be short lived.  Haha


I'm surprised he hasn't banned me yet. I think the only comments I've ever made have been "corrections" to his posts. I do try to do it in a very factual way for the most part though.

Still funny how a number of people are applauding his post as a "great write-up" when it has some factual errors in it plus pure speculation.


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW LiftBlog is also listing HG as a likely replacement in 2023.  That’s all they say.


That's been the going assumption for a while based on the SOPA filing with the USFS that was made back in March or April. Maybe like Hawk said more details will be announced this weekend at the Community Day speech (I won't be there though).


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## machski (Oct 8, 2022)

The only "benefit" to Skiology's guess would be to link Gate House to HG.  But that is redundant IMHO with Valley House backing up SB (and the whole RT snowmaking point).  Not to mention the additional traffic and congestion on Lower Downspout if you did move the base of HG downhill.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2022)

So.......what did SB announce?


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## Hawk (Oct 8, 2022)

Briefly.....
John Hamond introduced the new staff.  JJ Tolland is back from Jay.  Some got promoted.  New people etc.
They talked about all the snow making pipe that was replace.  They did the entire upper mountain at North include rim run, looking good, FIS and Elbow.  Also easy rider and slow poke at Lincoln peak.  They fixed other pipes and installed new hose connections in a lot of places and are installing some new guns.  They also did a bunch of maintenence on existing lifts and finished the renovations at the Mt Ellen lodge.  He mentioned that the next phase would include new valves and other things to increase capacity at Ellen.Not exactly sure of all the details but he said that to increase pressue and volume you need to replace the pipes first.

Matt Skiology was late in annoucing the reverse traverse thing, we knew about that, and is totally wrong about HG.  The lift needs replacing but it is a future project , is not totally sorted out yet and if anything they would move it slightly up hill to make a bigger platform for the lift line.  There is enough grade to get from Valley house to HG and Castle Rock with the re-designed reverse traverse.

He's a total boob.


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## slatham (Oct 8, 2022)

I have to assume that upper FIS will be lit up this winter. That is good news.


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## ducky (Oct 12, 2022)

Curious if there's an uptick in Sugarbush pass sales to Stowe refugees; Vermont resident, non-locals such as Burlington, Shelburne, Montpelier, etc. Stowe put their new $450 parking passes for sale yesterday and they sold out. The pass does not guarantee a space either. Parking without a pass will be $30 on weekends for those with less than 4 passengers. Adult passes at MRG sold out quickly as well.

 On first day of sales, Stowe parking pass plan gets chilly reception


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## slatham (Oct 12, 2022)

ducky said:


> Curious if there's an uptick in Sugarbush pass sales to Stowe refugees; Vermont resident, non-locals such as Burlington, Shelburne, Montpelier, etc. Stowe put their new $450 parking passes for sale yesterday and they sold out. The pass does not guarantee a space either. Parking without a pass will be $30 on weekends for those with less than 4 passengers. Adult passes at MRG sold out quickly as well.
> 
> On first day of sales, Stowe parking pass plan gets chilly reception


Unfortunately Ikon is private and doesn’t reports such stats. Need an insider *wink wink* to provide some color on local sales activity that Sugarbush saw vs prior years.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 12, 2022)

I think all of the local areas will see more and more Stowe ex-pats as time marches on.  Most of the people I know who work in Stowe live North of town in Morrisville, Elmore, Hyde Park, Eden or Wolcott.  All are much cheaper places to live than Waterbury.   So, those folks are leaving for Smuggs and Jay.   Folks on the 89 side, Bush, MRG and Bolton.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2022)

ducky said:


> Curious if there's an uptick in Sugarbush pass sales to Stowe refugees; Vermont resident, non-locals such as Burlington, Shelburne, Montpelier, etc. Stowe put their new $450 parking passes for sale yesterday and they sold out. The pass does not guarantee a space either. Parking without a pass will be $30 on weekends for those with less than 4 passengers. Adult passes at MRG sold out quickly as well.
> 
> On first day of sales, Stowe parking pass plan gets chilly reception



non scientific, but skiology dork did a poll of his membership which did show defection from epic to ikon. that's a very self selected group of internet dorks tho. that being said, i wouldn't pay vail to keep fucking my ass raw year after year.


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## cdskier (Oct 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> non scientific, but skiology dork did a poll of his membership which did show defection from epic to ikon. that's a very self selected group of internet dorks tho. that being said, i wouldn't pay vail to keep fucking my ass raw year after year.



Yea...not sure what to expect. I'm glad Ikon is at least a little bit pricier than Epic which will discourage some people from defecting (and I wouldn't be upset if Ikon raises their prices more next year to try to differentiate themselves as a more "premium" product than Epic).

But there are also a lot of people that are still buying Epic. Their true season pass numbers seem down a bit this year (even though their overall number including the Epic Day Pass product is up), but we don't know what the breakdown of changes by region are. It will be interesting to see what happens on the mountain...


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2022)

we also have the world returning to a more normalish status. lots of people are back in offices part time. the full time remote work fuck off to a ski town all winter long crowd is probably smaller and will continue to get smaller as more companies put their expensive office leases back to work. so I'm hoping that post-covid overall crowds in general are just lower


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## drjeff (Oct 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> we also have the world returning to a more normalish status. lots of people are back in offices part time. the full time remote work fuck off to a ski town all winter long crowd is probably smaller and will continue to get smaller as more companies put their expensive office leases back to work. so I'm hoping that post-covid overall crowds in general are just lower



I agree that it would be nice if things trended back crowd wise to a more normal, pre-covid level.  Just wondering how many folks who either started skiing/riding or greatly upped their skiing/riding because they actually could during Covid, will let their interest in the sport decreae over time.  As I think we all can agree here that this sport is really enjoyable and can certainly be addictive.  I think that we also can agree that Skiology Matt doesn't know nearly as much as his ego thinks on a whole host of topics from ski area design changes, to Killington's snowmaking strategies/philosophies. Then again someone who apparently has maybe 10 years tops of sliding around on a snowboard, and has said that he'd rather ride a few inches of sleet over deeper powder, can't really be taken seriously, regardless of what his monions think


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## deadheadskier (Oct 12, 2022)

I would be surprised if traffic isn't down considerably this winter.  Typically does during a recession. 

Between the high energy costs and the market in the shitter, lots of people will be spending less freely.


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## ducky (Oct 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I would be surprised if traffic isn't down considerably this winter.  Typically does during a recession.
> 
> Between the high energy costs and the market in the shitter, lots of people will be spending less freely.


You would not have known that last night if looking for a restaurant. Nada. Had Mad Taco on Tuesday and they were full, so tried Hyde Away. Ventilation probs and closed, so went to Bluestone. Parking lot full, line out the door. Gave our name and told 1/2 hour (at 6:30). By 7:00, all the folks in line behind us had still not had their names taken and the bartender let everyone know they were shorthanded; the host nowhere to be found, possibly helping in the kitchen. Went home and cooked for our guests. My guess is had we been in Stowe, we would have had 20 restaurants to choose from, Waterbury, perhaps 5 choices. This is peak leaf season and the town is packed with nowhere to go. 

Gone: Smokehouse, Worthy, Sage. Closed: Big Pic, Thai'd, Flatbread, Hyde, SB options, Creemee, Soul, Peasant, Collaborative, Alpino Vino


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## tumbler (Oct 13, 2022)

Such a bummer but I think Stowe and Waterbury are experiencing the same labor issues as the Valley.  Crazy that a Wednesday night would be that crowded.  Seems like Hyde Away closes once a week now and Flatbread never been open 7 days unless Xmas week.  Hope some of the restaurant and mountain positions get filled for winter.


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## cdskier (Oct 13, 2022)

ducky said:


> You would not have known that last night if looking for a restaurant. Nada. Had Mad Taco on Tuesday and they were full, so tried Hyde Away. Ventilation probs and closed, so went to Bluestone. Parking lot full, line out the door. Gave our name and told 1/2 hour (at 6:30). By 7:00, all the folks in line behind us had still not had their names taken and the bartender let everyone know they were shorthanded; the host nowhere to be found, possibly helping in the kitchen. Went home and cooked for our guests. My guess is had we been in Stowe, we would have had 20 restaurants to choose from, Waterbury, perhaps 5 choices. This is peak leaf season and the town is packed with nowhere to go.
> 
> Gone: Smokehouse, Worthy, Sage. Closed: Big Pic, Thai'd, Flatbread, Hyde, SB options, Creemee, Soul, Peasant, Collaborative, Alpino Vino



I had no idea Worthy Burger and Sage are both gone...

As for the others being closed, most of those are always closed year-round on Wednesday nights so nothing surprising there. Surprised to hear how crowded it is right now (especially since we're post Columbus Day at this point). During ski season the MRV is relatively quiet mid-week.


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## 1dog (Oct 13, 2022)

Hard to manage an F&B  business in normal conditions. 
Even pre-Covid  it was always '85% of all restaurants close within 5 years of opening' not sure that still is the case.
Lop on uneven traffic with mud, early summer, not a ton of places to sleep in MRV.
Add in Covid - keep hearing 25% of eateries never re-opened after the initial shut down.

Now 8-10% inflation ( its always higher in reality)

I've read where the 1-2 kids per family over the last 20-25 years wasn't enough to replace the work force in service or 'learning to work' starter jobs. Makes sense.

I was oldest of 4 - we were not considered a large family - needed to be 6 kids or more. Now three kids and no one invites you to their ski or beach house! LOL.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 13, 2022)

Yes, birth rate is impacting the service industry workforce tremendously.   But it's also the fact that vacation home owners and retirees have all priced the locals out. 

I went to high school and college in VT.  Lived for about 5 years working in VT in my 20s.  I and virtually everyone I know from highschool and college all left.   Little money to be made and quite expensive to live there.  Not worth it to be that close to the best skiing in the East.   Importing seasonal staff seems to be the only solution workable now.  No place to house them though.


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## 1dog (Oct 13, 2022)

The welfare reform of work-to-end in 18 months got gutted 8-10 yrs ago. So now, one can stay on assistance with no work requirement. It had its problems, ( if you earn $15-$20 an hour, they cut you off completely, instead of pairing it back).

And then of course the people who actually can't physically work get shafted because 30, 40, 50% of those on the dole are taking more than 'their fair share'. 

How does this all end? It doesn't look pretty.


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## NYDB (Oct 13, 2022)

people on the dole.  yes.  that's the problem.


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## dustyroads (Oct 13, 2022)

ducky said:


> You would not have known that last night if looking for a restaurant. Nada. Had Mad Taco on Tuesday and they were full, so tried Hyde Away. Ventilation probs and closed, so went to Bluestone. Parking lot full, line out the door. Gave our name and told 1/2 hour (at 6:30). By 7:00, all the folks in line behind us had still not had their names taken and the bartender let everyone know they were shorthanded; the host nowhere to be found, possibly helping in the kitchen. Went home and cooked for our guests. My guess is had we been in Stowe, we would have had 20 restaurants to choose from, Waterbury, perhaps 5 choices. This is peak leaf season and the town is packed with nowhere to go.
> 
> Gone: Smokehouse, Worthy, Sage. Closed: Big Pic, Thai'd, Flatbread, Hyde, SB options, Creemee, Soul, Peasant, Collaborative, Alpino Vino


Are The Hostile and Tucker Hill open?


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## ducky (Oct 13, 2022)

dustyroads said:


> Are The Hostile and Tucker Hill open?


Hostel Tevare is closed Weds and Tucker Hill has permanently closed their restaurant, at least until Christmas time.


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## oldfartrider (Oct 13, 2022)

That sucks about Tucker Hill their restaurant is great. Hope they open before Xmas


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## Shredmonkey254 (Oct 13, 2022)

ducky said:


> Hostel Tevare is closed Weds and Tucker Hill has permanently closed their restaurant, at least until Christmas time.


Hopefully the lack of restaurants will keep people from visiting the valley... that is about the only upside of this that I can think of.


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## cdskier (Oct 13, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> That sucks about Tucker Hill their restaurant is great. Hope they open before Xmas



This is what their website says at the moment:
_While our restaurant remains closed for the season, we are pleased to invite you to a special Harvest Dinner on October 8 and 9, 2022. Please return to the website for news about other special dinners, including Paella, and what we hope will be our winter menu and hours._

I like the restaurant a lot, but thought they were getting a tiny bit pricey over the years (last time I was there was the night everything shut down back in March 2020).


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## Shredmonkey254 (Oct 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> This is what their website says at the moment:
> _While our restaurant remains closed for the season, we are pleased to invite you to a special Harvest Dinner on October 8 and 9, 2022. Please return to the website for news about other special dinners, including Paella, and what we hope will be our winter menu and hours._
> 
> I like the restaurant a lot, but thought they were getting a tiny bit pricey over the years (last time I was there was the night everything shut down back in March 2020).


quite the coincidence! We too were there the night everything shut down. In a big group, got a text message from the mountain that our cat skiing on Sunday morning was cancelled. We thought it was a prank...


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## cdskier (Oct 13, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> quite the coincidence! We too were there the night everything shut down. In a big group, got a text message from the mountain that our cat skiing on Sunday morning was cancelled. We thought it was a prank...



LOL. If you were upstairs then we probably saw each other. Not like the place is that big. I was at a table of 2 with my dad that night. Word was spreading through the restaurant as the various announcements came out.


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## oldfartrider (Oct 13, 2022)

I think they r under new ownership since then


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## cdskier (Oct 13, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> I think they r under new ownership since then



Hmm...looking at the recent reviews highlighted on their website, I think you may be right. I see numerous mentions in new reviews about "Susan and Steve" being the owners/hosts. I could have sworn the previous owner was Kevin (and can't remember his wife's name).


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## ducky (Oct 13, 2022)

Susan and Steve White bought from Kevin and Patty Begin about two years ago.


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## djd66 (Oct 13, 2022)

NYDB said:


> people on the dole.  yes.  that's the problem.


People on the dole certainly does not help.  There were literally trillions that were handed out in one way or another during Covid. I have no idea why all these Restaurants did not make it in the MRV.  I’m guessing it might have something to do with the lack of demand during slow times? I have to believe that can be very challenging. How much help do you need? How much food to buy? The restaurant business is tough, must be really tough in the MRV.


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 14, 2022)

Same in Williston...help wanted signs everywhere..


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## hovercraft (Oct 14, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Hopefully the lack of restaurants will keep people from visiting the valley... that is about the only upside of this that I can think of.


To late, Ikon passes have been bought,  Maybe it should be renamed ZOO VALLEY  🥹


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2022)

Still trying to figure out what some of the root cause of the worker shortage in ski communties is. Afterall many people, with the help of he pandemic, decided to relocate from their more urban locations to the mountain communities, often saying how much they loved the mountains and the open space, and wanted to become part of the community.  Many existing businesses of various sizes, within those mountain communities have made strides to increase wages in an attempt to both retain and add new workers. And now we are seeing almost across the entire country a worker shortage. It's almost like the folks who moved into the communities, wanting to become a part of those communities don't want to REALLY be a part of those communities, or there's way more going on that folks don't really want to talk about concerning how certain programs actual de-incentivise wanting to work over working for a living, or there's just been a serious shift away from the former work ethic that drove this country by a significant enough portion of the population that people don't want to talk about and address.  There's probably numerous other factors as well.

Seems like many want to reside in mountain communities, but few want to work in mountain communities, and then that certainly can lead to the once formerly affordable housing for those who want to work in the mountain communities, getting bought up by those just wanting to reside there, and then renovated and added into the short term rental market at prices that would make it often impossible for many of those needed to work in the region to afford, and then often the communities, will then adopt future development policies that make it almost impossible to build new affordable housing in numbers significant enough to help sustain the economic needs of the day to day businesses in the community.  It's a really precarious position that not just ski communities, but many communities are in right now, and until many communties get pro-active about this, they're just hindering their ability to stay as a community where the small businesses that are they're supporting not just the visitors on occasions, but the local 365 days a year can thrive and stay open


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## Smellytele (Oct 14, 2022)

Is it really that hard to understand? Well off people buy the property in the “vacation” towns and drive property values up, driving the worker bees out. The well off are working remotely and don’t need service jobs. Yes they want to be part of the community by shopping and eating there but not working. Oh they may volunteer but that doesn’t help when service workers are needed.


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## NYDB (Oct 14, 2022)

yeah I mean noone is moving to ski country, buying a 600k+ condo and waiting tables/washing dishes. 
if you got money you are up there to ski and recreate not work.  I mean, maybe they open a pottery studio or glass blowing or some bullshit organic farm and produce artisinal goats milk but they aren't there to wax skis or make omelets. 


Go home to your condo and cook.  it's not the end of the world. if you are lucky @cdskier will invite you over for a 7 course meal with wine pairings


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## NYDB (Oct 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> .......or there's way more going on that folks don't really want to talk about concerning how certain programs actual de-incentivise wanting to work over working for a living..........



Expound on please


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## djd66 (Oct 14, 2022)

I was up at the bush this past weekend- there were literally NO Options for a sit down lunch - other than Rumbles and the Golf Course Pub. We ended up eating all of our meals at home - which quite honestly, I prefer over dealing with short staffed BS.  The one time we went out was on the way home on Monday, I ordered 3 sandwiches from Warren store and paid over $50.


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 14, 2022)

Read a report about why teenagers are not working. Only 20% are..lowest since 1948.
They are spending more time...on school.
Guess this is why pizza places are having a hard time...and jersey Mike's subs by me can't find help.
Might sound good but they are missing out on important things you learn while working.
They will enter the work force..never having worked.


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Expound on please



Sure, and I will try and keep this at a 10,000ft level vs say a 10ft level.

Social welfare/safety net programs ARE good things. Let me be 100% clear with that right off the bat. However the extent to which they have been expanded and the vast amount of services they cover these days, has made it in many cases the only source of "employment" for people, and not just for a short term amount of time, such as if someone is inbetween jobs, but for many working aged folks, a lifetime.  They were born to parents who are in the social welfare system, and they will remain themselves as part of the social welfare system for their lives, and one of the key factors is that there is a financial "penalty" for many when they corss over the governmental determined income level from where they are eligible to receive the governmental social welfare benefits to where they are responsible for those same things on their own, and when people cross that income threshold the added costs they will incur often add up to thousands of dollars whereas the change in their incomes often to get them above that line is so often far less than the costs they now have to pay for themselves.  I have read some studies that suggest that when someone starts making enough to not qualify for social welfare benefits anymore that the change in their income needed to allow them to live the same lifestyle as before is often in the 10k to 20k a year range depending on the cost of living where they are.  That alone creates a situation where someone could work more, but those extra hours would see them making too much to still be eligible for governmental assistance, they may choose to not work more to keep their governmental social welfare assistance.  On a basic level, that is what I am refering to.

We can debate all we want about what should or shouldn't be part of a social welfare system, and there will be passionate people on both sides of that debate for sure, but the reality is with how those programs have expanded over the last 50+ years and what they now cover and what they cost a year, we really should be in a situation where poverty and homelessness in this country should be in a better sitaution than it is now.


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Read a report about why teenagers are not working. Only 20% are..lowest since 1948.
> They are spending more time...on school.
> Guess this is why pizza places are having a hard time...and jersey Mike's subs by me can't find help.
> Might sound good but they are missing out on important things you learn while working.
> They will enter the work force..never having worked.


Having gone through the college application and admissions process with my oldest last year and now my youngest this year, the societal stresses that those driven to succeed have placed on them is massive, and to some extent certainly can and has created over scheduled, stressed out teens, and then the corollary to that is for those who just feel overwhelmed by all of the pressure placed on them, often they end up withdrawing from society or venturing into peer groups who may not end up with the best of influences on them in the long run.

At somepoint over the last say 25 years or so, it seems like the concept that being "normal" is 100% OK has been pushed aside by the notion that you have to a be excepetional/different or else you really aren't anything, and that's not a good thing.  Guessing that social media has played a bunch into that side of social development of our youth and now young(er) adults


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## cdskier (Oct 14, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I was up at the bush this past weekend- there were literally NO Options for a sit down lunch - other than Rumbles and the Golf Course Pub. We ended up eating all of our meals at home - which quite honestly, I prefer over dealing with short staffed BS.  The one time we went out was on the way home on Monday, I ordered 3 sandwiches from Warren store and paid over $50.



Thinking about it...have there ever really been that many sit down lunch options in the valley? The vast majority of places I can think of have always been more dinner-oriented with the exception of the on-mountain (or on golf-course) places plus a very small handful of others.

And while not sit-down, sandwiches from Mehurons to go should not be overlooked. They make some excellent ones at reasonable prices...


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## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2022)

Lived in ski towns for years.  I have many friends that still do, a lot in the restaurant business as that's where I worked.

Not a single employer I know (in Stowe at least) says the reason they are struggling to find staff is because of lazy people taking advantage of social safety nets.  Not one.

It's about the cost of available housing for workers and available, consistent year round income.  You used to be able to find a reasonable apartment in Stowe and be able to make enough during peak seasons to carry you through April, May and November when tourism is completely dead.   That doesn't exist anymore.   In comparison to 25 years ago, Morrisville has higher rents than what I paid in Stowe.  So, all of the young people just leave for the cities.  Having to drive 30 minutes to work or entertainment defeats the purpose of being a ski bum. 

As for lack of youth workers?  Again, it's because of transplants pricing out locals.  25 years ago you had lower income families in Stowe who had lived there generations.  They all had kids working the local pizza shops and what not. 

Almost all of those people have been replaced by wealthy transplants.   You think mom and dad are going to make junior get a job to pay for gas money for the Range Rover they drive to school? Lol. No.


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## djd66 (Oct 14, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Read a report about why teenagers are not working. Only 20% are..lowest since 1948.
> They are spending more time...on school.
> Guess this is why pizza places are having a hard time...and jersey Mike's subs by me can't find help.
> Might sound good but they are missing out on important things you learn while working.
> They will enter the work force..never having worked.


Both my kids work.  My 16 year old son have saved over $10k from working.  Personally, some of my best learning experiences were from the jobs I had as a teen.


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2022)

NYDB said:


> yeah I mean noone is moving to ski country, buying a 600k+ condo and waiting tables/washing dishes.
> if you got money you are up there to ski and recreate not work.  I mean, maybe they open a pottery studio or glass blowing or some bullshit organic farm and produce artisinal goats milk but they aren't there to wax skis or make omelets.
> 
> 
> Go home to your condo and cook.  it's not the end of the world. if you are lucky @cdskier will invite you over for a 7 course meal with wine pairings


100% agree with that.

The point I was trying to get at, is what is now a 600K condo, may of been a 200K condo/older house a few years ago, that was a reasonable rental or even ownership option for the full time locals. Given what has happened to the housing market in the appreciation of the value of many properties, and the renovation of many older properties, often with an eye on putting that property into the short term rental market at a much higher price point than it could of been rented/bought for before, that certainly affects the ability to find affordable housing within a reasonable distance of the mountain/town for many locals.  Then add in that some of the local planning an zoning boards and even some community members, for various reasons, have chosen to frown upon many proposals to build affordable housing in the community/region, but seem to be OK approving much pricier single family homes/condos in that same area.  It's really a vicious circle, and one that may make it very difficlult for future generations with multi generational family ties to that particular area to be able to live there themselves.  Don't know what the balance is, but there has to be one or else so many of the mountain communities that we all seem to love may have a very challenging time continuing in the ways that drew us to them in the 1st place


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 14, 2022)

well once all the people who fleed the city get called back to work or else, the dynamic will change once again.  At least that's what the CEOs think.

there needs to be affordable housing, but we all know what kind of hoops you have to jump through in VT.   Also the affordable housing needs to be more than an old motel converted into J1 housing for the resort.


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## SenorQuesadilla (Oct 14, 2022)

Restaurant industry just needs to get together and start bribing universities to include working menial jobs as a requirement for admission.


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## djd66 (Oct 14, 2022)

SenorQuesadilla said:


> Restaurant industry just needs to get together and start bribing universities to include working menial jobs as a requirement for admission.


Or rather than taking out huge loans and then expecting loan forgiveness - you actually get a job and pay for it


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## cdskier (Oct 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> well once all the people who fleed the city get called back to work or else, the dynamic will change once again.  At least that's what the CEOs think.



That might be what short-sighted CEOs think. But I don't ever see us as a society going to back to being in the office for everyone as the norm. And if it wasn't for the long-term expensive office leases some companies are stuck in, they wouldn't be pushing for it either in many cases.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That might be what short-sighted CEOs think. But I don't ever see us as a society going to back to being in the office for everyone as the norm. And if it wasn't for the long-term expensive office leases some companies are stuck in, they wouldn't be pushing for it either in many cases.



Depends on the industry.  In mine, WFH was a disaster from a productivity and professionalism standpoint.  Pleased our president put an end to it.  We own our building and could likely sell it if need be.  That won't be happening.


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Depends on the industry.  In mine, WFH was a disaster from a productivity and professionalism standpoint.  Pleased our president put an end to it.  We own our building and could likely sell it if need be.  That won't be happening.


I think that this is a key thing that some, especially some of the younger workers, don't seem to fully get, that while some industries can certainly run without issues in a WFH modality, there are others, where there is a definte fall off and a times lesser client expetience/services situation, even if the employee really like the WFH situation, that needs to have an in person work experience, and that's where the boss will step in and probably "offend" a few of their younger employees along they way as they are brought back into the office for the overall health of the company and it's customers/clients


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## IceEidolon (Oct 14, 2022)

And in some cases where the boss thinks there's a big benefit to in-person and a competitor thinks there's a big benefit to WFH, market forces will decide.

Regardless, WFH likely won't drop below 2019 rates - the demand for housing in desirable locations like near ski resorts is going to stay higher than it otherwise would have. Saddleback is actually building employee housing, and I think that if communities don't work out some solutions to their housing supply issues, more resorts will have to follow that example.


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## cdskier (Oct 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I think that this is a key thing that some, especially some of the younger workers, don't seem to fully get, that while some industries can certainly run without issues in a WFH modality, there are others, where there is a definte fall off and a times lesser client expetience/services situation, even if the employee really like the WFH situation, that needs to have an in person work experience, and that's where the boss will step in and probably "offend" a few of their younger employees along they way as they are brought back into the office for the overall health of the company and it's customers/clients



I do agree this doesn't work in all industries. And even in some business it may only work for some positions.

I don't agree that it is simply a younger vs older generation thing though. Where I work is rather skewed towards an older workforce within many of the office-based positions (By this I mean people in their 40s, 50s, 60s). Quite a few of them seemed to quickly embrace being fully WFH more-so than some of our younger staff. It seems a decent number of the "older" people already had 2nd homes (down the shore, on the Cape, in the mountains, etc) and seized the opportunity to "move" to those locations. Younger people are a lot less likely to have already had those 2nd homes they could simply go to.

We also have quite a few offices globally. And many teams have people in multiple offices and have global reporting structures. Even myself, I'm technically based in our NJ office, but my manager is based in Cambridge, MA. The people I work with on many of my projects are spread out in offices in MA, NJ, CA, PA, France, India, Germany. So for this scenario, what's the difference between being in an office vs being at home when I'm not going to physically see any people I work with in the office anyway?


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 14, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Is it really that hard to understand? Well off people buy the property in the “vacation” towns and drive property values up, driving the worker bees out. The well off are working remotely and don’t need service jobs. Yes they want to be part of the community by shopping and eating there but not working. Oh they may volunteer but that doesn’t help when service workers are needed.


This.  So much this.  Any other explanation, especially since pandemic-related unemployment payments have been eliminated for the vast majority of workers, is ideology masquerading as curiosity.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> We can debate all we want about what should or shouldn't be part of a social welfare system, and there will be passionate people on both sides of that debate for sure, but the reality is with how those programs have expanded over the last 50+ years and what they now cover and what they cost a year, we really should be in a situation where poverty and homelessness in this country should be in a better situation than it is now.


Poverty, which those programs were designed to address, is most certainly down in the last 50 years by any metric.  Homelessness was not historically a huge concern or focus of social welfare programs.  The destruction of the public safety net for the mentally disabled in the 70s really kicked that process into gear. Tt's more recently been catalyzed by a structural housing shortage as supply fails to keep up with demand in places people want to live (coasts, mountains).  The final kicker has been the growth of Airbnb/VRBO in that they take a huge % of the long-term rental housing stock out of the market.  Why deal with the hassle of a winter-long tenant who may/may not be reliable vs. skimming the cream of tourists via Airbnb and laying off much of the risk to the platform.

While I'm not suggesting we go the European route I believe in free markets), but clearly there is a relationship between poverty/homelessness and the level of social spending.  There is of course a downside of slower growth and higher unemployment, so I'm not suggesting that's nirvana.  But to suggest that increases in social welfare spending are ineffective in general, or have been specifically in the US, is economically uninformed.


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## 1dog (Oct 15, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Poverty, which those programs were designed to address, is most certainly down in the last 50 years by any metric.  Homelessness was not historically a huge concern or focus of social welfare programs.  The destruction of the public safety net for the mentally disabled in the 70s really kicked that process into gear. Tt's more recently been catalyzed by a structural housing shortage as supply fails to keep up with demand in places people want to live (coasts, mountains).  The final kicker has been the growth of Airbnb/VRBO in that they take a huge % of the long-term rental housing stock out of the market.  Why deal with the hassle of a winter-long tenant who may/may not be reliable vs. skimming the cream of tourists via Airbnb and laying off much of the risk to the platform.
> 
> While I'm not suggesting we go the European route I believe in free markets), but clearly there is a relationship between poverty/homelessness and the level of social spending.  There is of course a downside of slower growth and higher unemployment, so I'm not suggesting that's nirvana.  But to suggest that increases in social welfare spending are ineffective in general, or have been specifically in the US, is economically uninformed.


Agree with many of these points, but the rate of poverty is the same as (defined by the feds) 13% after $22 trillion expended since The Great Society Act in '65. 
Overview here: https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years
My oldest lives in Bay Area - in a few short years homelessness as decimated the city and beyond. That '70's legislation did close the institutions and asked the locals ( counties, cities, towns, and most of all families, to deal with the issue- many failed of course. They threw them some cash. A recent CA study found the average spent on the problem in the state was $80K per person. Its a pretty large business. The administration of the programs eat up enormous amounts of the funding.  Similar to most government programs.

Scroll down on this to see Jefferson, and Franklins take on 'vagabonds' ( not addressing mental illness of course).








						Poverty and Welfare in the American Founding
					

Did Americans before the 20th century lack compassion for the poor? Did they treat the poor with indifference or even cruelty? That is the impression given by most high school and college textbooks. Few students ever learn that government-funded welfare, not to mention generous private charity...




					www.heritage.org
				




“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
― C. S. Lewis


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## Powder Whore (Oct 15, 2022)

skibum1321 said:


> Actually, after the Big Pass there was the Huge Pass which included Jay, MRG and the Bush. It was a college deal yet again.


unicorn pass


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 16, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Expound on please



Right it’s all those pesky govt programs preventing remote knowledge workers who moved to ski towns from putting on their line cook apron or snowmakers coat.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 16, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Lived in ski towns for years.  I have many friends that still do, a lot in the restaurant business as that's where I worked.
> 
> Not a single employer I know (in Stowe at least) says the reason they are struggling to find staff is because of lazy people taking advantage of social safety nets.  Not one.
> 
> ...


He just wanted to use a lot of words to make a not thinly veiled racist post about welfare recipients


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 16, 2022)

Any word on when they'll start snowmaking or what they'll be planning on opening?


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 16, 2022)

Sugarbush is usually a 11/1 snowmaking start.


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## ducky (Oct 16, 2022)

Brian Mohr already has 1 day in skiing the frosty grass.


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## teleo (Oct 17, 2022)

Sugarbush begins permitting process for lift replacement and trail realignment
					

Sugarbush has begun the permitting process to replace the Heaven’s Gate triple chair with a fixed grip quad chairlift.




					www.valleyreporter.com
				




Not much new here.  But the following is amusing:

“Current thinking is that the new lift will remain roughly in the same footprint as the existing lift,” he said, refuting social media posts about the Heaven’s Gate base being moved lower down on the mountain.


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 17, 2022)

So it's my understanding that they're cutting a completely new, lower reverse traverse?
If this is the case how are they getting around the fact that people will have to ski Stein's to get onto it? That's too bad because I remember in prior season's when Bravo was closed late-season, you could still take Reverse Traverse and ski Murphy's/Birdland to LoG but now there won't be as much skiing.
Also I wonder if this means they will shorten Egan's and Stein's Woods, or if in the case of Egan's they'll expand up through Valerie's. I guess it won't matter much, everyone sees it skiing on VH Traverse.


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## Hawk (Oct 17, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> So it's my understanding that they're cutting a completely new, lower reverse traverse?
> If this is the case how are they getting around the fact that people will have to ski Stein's to get onto it? That's too bad because I remember in prior season's when Bravo was closed late-season, you could still take Reverse Traverse and ski Murphy's/Birdland to LoG but now there won't be as much skiing.
> Also I wonder if this means they will shorten Egan's and Stein's Woods, or if in the case of Egan's they'll expand up through Valerie's. I guess it won't matter much, everyone sees it skiing on VH Traverse.


I am not sure what you are saying here.  But this is what they are doing with reverse traverse.  As you come off VH lift and turn right, it will be exactly the same.  you ski across the top of Steins like you always did and go until the trail went slightly up hill.  From about there  they were gong to regrade the trail to slightly more dowm hill.  The path across Murphys, Jester and OG would be slightly different and then it would end up crossing Domino at the same place with no changes so you can ski right to the existing HG base. Egans woods would be affected at the top 50 or so yards. At least that is what I was told.


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## Newpylong (Oct 17, 2022)

If you peruse the ACT 250 filings it goes into great detail on the alignment. The above summary is correct. Top section is realigned to be downhill and provide for an at grade crossing directly into the lower section of RT.


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## slatham (Oct 17, 2022)

Any work start on Reverse Traverse yet?


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## djd66 (Oct 17, 2022)

slatham said:


> Any work start on Reverse Traverse yet?


act 250 is still pending, so my guess would be no


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 17, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I am not sure what you are saying here.  But this is what they are doing with reverse traverse.  As you come off VH lift and turn right, it will be exactly the same.  you ski across the top of Steins like you always did and go until the trail went slightly up hill.  From about there  they were gong to regrade the trail to slightly more dowm hill.  The path across Murphys, Jester and OG would be slightly different and then it would end up crossing Domino at the same place with no changes so you can ski right to the existing HG base. Egans woods would be affected at the top 50 or so yards. At least that is what I was told.


Yeah sorry about my post being messy... sounds like the work they're doing on RT is not going to be as drastic as I had thought.


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## SkiTheEast (Oct 17, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Yeah sorry about my post being messy... sounds like the work they're doing on RT is not going to be as drastic as I had thought.


Link to all the docs.  There is a nice map in one of the attachments that illustrates it well for those that prefer visuals like me.



			Forest Service


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 17, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Link to all the docs.  There is a nice map in one of the attachments that illustrates it well for those that prefer visuals like me.
> 
> 
> 
> Forest Service


OK yeah, the new realignment makes much more sense than the old one, thanks!


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## cdskier (Oct 17, 2022)

teleo said:


> Sugarbush begins permitting process for lift replacement and trail realignment
> 
> 
> Sugarbush has begun the permitting process to replace the Heaven’s Gate triple chair with a fixed grip quad chairlift.
> ...



LOL. I'm completely shocked that a certain someone on social media was wrong on this topic...


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 18, 2022)

Did that article say they were putting new chairs and tower toppers on HG next year? That seems like a decent investment for a lift that is on the replacement list. Even if it's a few years out...

Also LOL to Mr Fake weatherman.


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## Newpylong (Oct 18, 2022)

That is a very odd expenditure indeed if it's replacement is only a few off. Prob more to the story.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 18, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Did that article say they were putting new chairs and tower toppers on HG next year? That seems like a decent investment for a lift that is on the replacement list. Even if it's a few years out..





jimmywilson69 said:


> Also LOL to Mr Fake weatherman.


*regular upkeep work* including new communications line, new chairs and new tower caps - not a significant investment

And yes it was stupid by Mr Skiology to even think it made sense to lower the base of the HG chair


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## cdskier (Oct 18, 2022)

WWF-VT said:


> *regular upkeep work* including new communications line, new chairs and new tower caps - not a significant investment
> 
> And yes it was stupid by Mr Skiology to even think it made sense to lower the base of the HG chair



The biggest problem is there are so many people that blindly believe him and are going to be surprised when that doesn't happen.


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## djd66 (Oct 18, 2022)

What are "tower caps" and why would they be replacing them when they are planning on installing a new lift in the near future?

FWIW - the skiology guy is a complete tool.  His "prediction" is the most idiotic thing I have heard regarding Sugarbush infrastructure.  Has the guy ever even skied Sugarbush? Doubt it.


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## Newpylong (Oct 18, 2022)

WWF-VT said:


> *regular upkeep work* including new communications line, new chairs and new tower caps - not a significant investment
> 
> And yes it was stupid by Mr Skiology to even think it made sense to lower the base of the HG chair


I did a comm line on a 2500 foot lift with the vendor and it was by no means an easy, quick, or insignificant investment. HG is almost double that in length. It isn't something you do on a short timer.

I have no clue what "tower caps" are but there must have been a significant percentage of chairs that are failing NDT to warrant wholesale replacement. That is not a typical maintenance item and also not something you do for a lift on its senior slide.

Likewise, they must be having irreparable issues with the safety comms if the line is getting replaced. Did the lift go down a lot this past winter? If you get faults on the sensors constantly that won't clear, the comms are typically bad. It's a pretty brutal environment up there, wouldn't surprise me. All of these items together, without further information, seems weird with the lift coming out in the near future. Unless near future isn't really near future


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Oct 18, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Did the lift go down a lot this past winter?


Yes it was down a couple times. I remember it was down on a pretty sick pow weekend too, which sucked unless you hiked up.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Yes it was down a couple times. I remember it was down on a pretty sick pow weekend too, which sucked unless you hiked up.


My son had to ride down in a cat from the bottom of hg early season as he skied down and there was no way out but to walk or the cat.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 18, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Yes it was down a couple times. I remember it was down on a pretty sick pow weekend too, which sucked unless you hiked up.


If that is one of the weekends I'm thinking of, then HG having issues was fantastic if you were one of the lucky ones that caught it in the short timespan it was running. That Paradise run I had that time was easily one of my top 5 runs of all time. Also pretty sure it was a sensor/comm issue that was causing issues that time.


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Oct 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> If that is one of the weekends I'm thinking of, then HG having issues was fantastic if you were one of the lucky ones that caught it in the short timespan it was running. That Paradise run I had that time was easily one of my top 5 runs of all time. Also pretty sure it was a sensor/comm issue that was causing issues that time.


You probably are, any run taken up there would have easily been in the top 5. Although I did skin up earlier, later that day at maybe 2:30 (the lift was running by that point) I took a run in Highway 21 and not one person had been in it, best run of my life.


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## teleo (Oct 18, 2022)

Ah yes, I was one of the few that morning.  Took forever to get to the top.  But I got spills with 1 track on it.  Best run of the year. 

I recall Hammond being really frustrated that they replaced all the sensors on one of the top exposed towers, and then the fault moved to another tower.  Believe there were other days with faults up there too.


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## Hawk (Oct 19, 2022)

I was on the 3rd chair that day.  Hammond was behind us when the lift went down.  He was not pleased.  But these things happen to a Poma lift that is 38 years old.

Also, Steezy mentions on of my favorite lines by the locals name.  You must know people.  ;-)


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## teleo (Oct 19, 2022)

Haven't been in Highway 21 in a number of years and I recall it growing in. Is it overgrown now?


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 19, 2022)

teleo said:


> Haven't been in Highway 21 in a number of years and I recall it growing in. Is it overgrown now?


It's real nice until you get to the cutover. After that it can get a little bushy, but there are a couple of turns to get in there. Most people funnel out onto grinder before that, though.


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## Hawk (Oct 19, 2022)

Lets be more clear.  Unless there is a good aomunt of snow on the ground, it is sketchy with a lot of blow downs.  And yes it is definately more thick then prior years.  Things grow.


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## jimmck (Oct 27, 2022)

Fan gun as well as new tower guns installed on Easy Rider


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 27, 2022)

That's good. I remember it being really bad last season. Half grass the whole time pretty much.


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## tumbler (Oct 28, 2022)

It's still going to be half grass with the small towers, its a very wide trail.  Need to install another set of hydrants on skiers left to cover that side.


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## Newpylong (Oct 28, 2022)

95% of the trails that have pipes on both sides places don't use them due to prevailing winds, it's not really worth it when you have to wait for perfect conditions. Operationally easier to just make more with the towers and blade it over. Really only an issue at the upper widest section, they can just tilt them back for more throw there.


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## slatham (Oct 28, 2022)

Or if you really want to make snow on the other side of the trail you string a few hoses together and use land/sled guns in the middle of the trail ( at night of course).


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## machski (Oct 28, 2022)

Or you do what SR does on lower MM/Race arena and have a buried pipeline mid trail that you uncap and install hydrants early season to make the far side and then remove and recap the hydrant connections when done.  Always have felt this is labor intensive but that's what they do.  Gets that full width open for racing quite quickly though.


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## Newpylong (Oct 28, 2022)

That is extremely resource intensive. Wrenching off hydrants and then capping threadolets above ground in the summer is a PITA, forget below grade in winter. 

If it's really an issue the easiest and most cost effective solution is just to run enough house out to sleds until the far side is done and then you pull them off the hill and swap over to the towers.


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## Dickc (Oct 28, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> That is extremely resource intensive. Wrenching off hydrants and then capping threadolets above ground in the summer is a PITA, forget below grade in winter.
> 
> If it's really an issue the easiest and most cost effective solution is just to run enough house out to sleds until the far side is done and then you pull them off the hill and swap over to the towers.


Sunday River also moves the post mounted tower guns to the middle of middle Sunday Punch below the mid station until they have made enough snow on the far side, then moved the guns back to the edge and pull the posts until the next season.  I've always thought it seemed like a lot of work, but they do it every year.


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## machski (Oct 29, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Sunday River also moves the post mounted tower guns to the middle of middle Sunday Punch below the mid station until they have made enough snow on the far side, then moved the guns back to the edge and pull the posts until the next season.  I've always thought it seemed like a lot of work, but they do it every year.


Actually, I don't think they did last year.  And it would not surprise me to see SR use Cascade as the early mid-bottom route now, especially given that is now the main upfeed and has mostly Klik hydrants.  Might as well test that out this year, if Barker is changed out next summer, they may need that if work is ongoing with the install early season next year.


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## Hawk (Nov 1, 2022)

The tower guns are all in on Easy Rider and Pushover.  Here are a couple of pic for the snomaking gear geeks.


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## doublediamond (Nov 1, 2022)

What temps do banks 2 - 3 - 4 turn on?


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## drjeff (Nov 1, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> What temps do banks 2 - 3 - 4 turn on?


Cold, colder, and really cold!


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## Newpylong (Nov 1, 2022)

Here is the flowchart I had for our Impulses with 5 stage shifter. Never used a Klik but you can infer when the 4 different stages would be used by looking at the 5 stager.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 1, 2022)

Looks like they went klik system


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## cdskier (Nov 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Looks like they went klik system


They started that last year at ME on Northstar with the new pipe/hydrants/guns they put in over there. I guess they were pretty happy with the results!


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## HowieT2 (Nov 2, 2022)

Hope those new guns work in marginal temperatures.  Next couple of weeks look warm.


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## Newpylong (Nov 2, 2022)

Why would they be making snow there in November?


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## ducky (Nov 2, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Why would they be making snow there in November?


They really need beginner terrain as soon as temps allow.


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 2, 2022)

i doubt they devote november snowmaking to village run. unless it's a great snow year, that would be so lame of them.


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## tumbler (Nov 3, 2022)

They never devote snowmaking to village run 

They do try to get beginner terrain open very quickly though.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2022)

They don’t even have snowmaking on the village trail


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 3, 2022)

Rookies.  

It's Jester>Downspout at the start pretty much every year, unless you get a strange temp set up in which case they may opt for VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling or variants therein (e.g. w/o VH Traverse and running via VH lift).  They don't start blowing snow on the GH pod until they're comfortable that the basic cruising way down from the summit to base is blown in for the season.   I'd generally set December 1 as the over/under for when snowmaking begins on GH b/c they do need to get the seasonal/lesson programs going before Xmas break.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Rookies.
> 
> It's Jester>Downspout at the start pretty much every year, unless you get a strange temp set up in which case they may opt for VH Traverse>Snowball>Spring Fling or variants therein (e.g. w/o VH Traverse and running via VH lift).  They don't start blowing snow on the GH pod until they're comfortable that the basic cruising way down from the summit to base is blown in for the season.   I'd generally set December 1 as the over/under for when snowmaking begins on GH b/c they do need to get the seasonal/lesson programs going before Xmas break.



Ever since they put the new pipe and guns on Spring Fling they've made that the goal to open first IF temps cooperate. Jester->DS is the backup plan when temps down low aren't good. And then the past couple years they started prioritizing a GH route earlier in the plan to help spread people across multiple lifts and keep beginners off Super Bravo.


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 3, 2022)

Thanks for the correction.  What did the GH route displace in the sequence?  Mid/lower OG?  Murphy's


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## Hawk (Nov 3, 2022)

Yup that is how it basically went last year.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 3, 2022)

i love snowball>fling. one of my favorite cruising groomers in new england. i particularly like the low skier's right side that doesn't always get groomed.


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 3, 2022)

imo lwr. snowball is much better than fling. just more roll-ier and enjoyable. spring is good in the... spring, but lwr snowball's still usually more fun as it's combat skiing through the grass and rocks lol


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

Murphy's tends to be pretty late in the snowmaking plan now typically. (Which if we get natural snow I happen to love as Murphy's on all natural snow is a lot of fun).

Spring Fling, Jester/DS/OG, GH Route, Lower OG, mid/lower Jester and/or more GH. That tends to be the general pattern for the early season snow-making plan lately.


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## hovercraft (Nov 3, 2022)

Spring fling at the end of the season is banging….


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## slatham (Nov 3, 2022)

Given new, modern, high efficiency snowmaking off of GH you can bet that’s earlier than normal this year.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

slatham said:


> Given new, modern, high efficiency snowmaking off of GH you can bet that’s earlier than normal this year.


Really can't get much earlier than they've been doing it as there's no way that takes priority over an SB/VH/HG route. But yes, they surely want to use those new guns and pipes over there as soon as practical.


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## Newpylong (Nov 4, 2022)

Agreed, what it will do is allow them to get those two trails open quicker when they do decide to go there.


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## tumbler (Nov 4, 2022)

I admit I was skeptical of opening on SB->Fling but it was so much better than Jester->DS.  No downloading and easier to navigate around people.  The pitch on Fling is much better and consistent than lower SB.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 4, 2022)

Sage sold to Shea Property Services
					

Closed restaurant to be turned into housing in Waitsfield, Vermont




					www.valleyreporter.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 4, 2022)

more housing. closing restaurant. conflicting desires for the mrv.


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 4, 2022)

Ugh, more cannabis...no offense to those who imbibe but Worthy Burger and Sage both replaced in some part by cannabis operations.  Understand it's the flavor of the month but sad to see 2 Valley restaurants go and replaced by this...also might be mistaken but thought I saw reports of another shop going in the old Infinite Sports next to Mehurons...3 shops in all basically walking distance?


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 5, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Ugh, more cannabis...no offense to those who imbibe but Worthy Burger and Sage both replaced in some part by cannabis operations.  Understand it's the flavor of the month but sad to see 2 Valley restaurants go and replaced by this...also might be mistaken but thought I saw reports of another shop going in the old Infinite Sports next to Mehurons...3 shops in all basically walking distance?


yay more weed to stink up the mountain!


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## skiur (Nov 5, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Ugh, more cannabis...no offense to those who imbibe but Worthy Burger and Sage both replaced in some part by cannabis operations.  Understand it's the flavor of the month but sad to see 2 Valley restaurants go and replaced by this...also might be mistaken but thought I saw reports of another shop going in the old Infinite Sports next to Mehurons...3 shops in all basically walking distance?



The restaurants didn't leave so a dispensary could come in.  The restaurants shut down and the dispensaries took the vacant spot.  Dispensaries are actually good for restaurants.  They give people the munchies!


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 5, 2022)

skiur said:


> The restaurants didn't leave so a dispensary could come in.  The restaurants shut down and the dispensaries took the vacant spot.  Dispensaries are actually good for restaurants.  They give people the munchies!



Yes, I think most people understand that the dispensaries didn't boot the restaurants out and that they are just taking the available space.  I recognize it's extremely difficult for restaurants even in ordinary times and this is not ordinary times. Just sad that the vacancies weren't filled by other restaurants.  As noted above the dining options in the valley are dwindling due to a number of factors (cost/availability of housing, lack of staff, increases in food prices leading to declining margins, etc)

My point is moreso what is the demand for all these businesses? I guess the market will determine but there are less than 10k full-time residents in the entire valley (plus additional seasonal visitors) and the target clientele is limited.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Yes, I think most people understand that the dispensaries didn't boot the restaurants out and that they are just taking the available space.  I recognize it's extremely difficult for restaurants even in ordinary times and this is not ordinary times. Just sad that the vacancies weren't filled by other restaurants.  As noted above the dining options in the valley are dwindling due to a number of factors (cost/availability of housing, lack of staff, increases in food prices leading to declining margins, etc)
> 
> My point is moreso what is the demand for all these businesses? I guess the market will determine but there are less than 10k full-time residents in the entire valley (plus additional seasonal visitors) and the target clientele is limited.



I agree. 3 (or even 2) seems overkill for the MRV area. But we'll see what happens.


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## urungus (Nov 5, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I agree. 3 (or even 2) seems overkill for the MRV area. But we'll see what happens.


How many places in the MRV area sell alcohol ?


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 5, 2022)

All I need is a good sandwich...


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2022)

urungus said:


> How many places in the MRV area sell alcohol ?



Not exactly a like for like comparison. There are a lot more people that drink than use cannabis. And the vast majority of places that sell alcohol in the MRV don't have that as their main business. There's really only 1 place in the MRV that sells wine/beer as their primary business (assuming Waitsfield wine shop is still open). There's also only one place that sells hard alcohol (Mehurons).


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 5, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Not exactly a like for like comparison. There are a lot more people that drink than use cannabis. And the vast majority of places that sell alcohol in the MRV don't have that as their main business. There's really only 1 place in the MRV that sells wine/beer as their primary business (assuming Waitsfield wine shop is still open). There's also only one place that sells hard alcohol (Mehurons).


100% agreed.  Will also add that if 3 different liquor stores came in and replaced Sage, Worthy Burger and Infinite Sports I would still have the same feelings.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 6, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> My point is moreso what is the demand for all these businesses? I guess the market will determine but there are less than 10k full-time residents in the entire valley (plus additional seasonal visitors) and the target clientele is limited.



They’ll all print money on the winter weekends and the summer at least until NY and CT set up their dispensaries


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## skiur (Nov 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Not exactly a like for like comparison. There are a lot more people that drink than use cannabis. And the vast majority of places that sell alcohol in the MRV don't have that as their main business. There's really only 1 place in the MRV that sells wine/beer as their primary business (assuming Waitsfield wine shop is still open). There's also only one place that sells hard alcohol (Mehurons).


What about bars?


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 6, 2022)

skiur said:


> What about bars?



Also not an apt comparison until there are onsite consumption cannabis lounge type places. It’s a vibe in Amsterdam but not one I think I’d be super into in the USA, especially rural. It’s just generally more of a product to buy and take home than alcohol, at least for me


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## Hawk (Nov 7, 2022)

It was my understanding that the Worthy Burger location will not be a dispensory.  I heard it was going to be a processing plant.  Either way the single biggest issue in the valley for restauraunts is Labor.  The staff is still just not there.  I have been into Flatbread, Mad Taco, Hyde Away, Tucker Hill and Bluestone over the last few weeks and had long conversations with many of the bar tenders and staff.  There are just not enough people to do the work.  Flat Bread which is by far the most sucessful place is still working with 1/2 the staff which is making them stay with the order at the bar thing.  Even this winter they are saying they will keep it that way with less table tops availible to manage the crowd.


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## tumbler (Nov 7, 2022)

Being in the restaurant business in the Valley has always been tough but as Hawk said the lack of labor is much worse now.  There were always the staples, Flatbread, Hyde Away, The Den and old Common Man and then others that tried and unfortunately failed.  Now Common Man gone (for a while), Hyde Away open 5-6 days a week, The Den is Bluestone and still open and of course Flatbread.  I think the model very few seats and take out only would work well for the winter.  Many families don't want to go to a restaurant after skiing all day and don't want to cook.  Don't have a crazy menu and crank out the food.


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## djd66 (Nov 7, 2022)

In the past, we went out for dinner quite often.  However, just like I did last year, I will be eating at home for most of my meals.  I can't deal with crappy service.  I remember last year I called Fit to be Tied for takeout - they would not even pick up the phone.  I feel bad for the owners of these places, but come on, at least pick up the phone.  I really miss Pizza Soul being in the village.  That was my go to place and he could crank out a ton of pizza in that tiny space.  I got to point where i would call my order in when I got off at Exit 5 on Friday nights and it would be ready when I got to the Mtn.   One thing I have always thought of - they make pretty good pies in the Gatehouse lodge - would be a great business for the MTN to sell pizza until 8:00PM on weekends.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 7, 2022)

Bummed Sage is closed.  Liked that place.  That building was empty for years after Egan's shut down.
I assume the dispensary will be in the lower level where the mad river distillery shop was?  Is it going to be a retail dispensary or medical only?

I wonder if the labor situation will ease somewhat now that the pandemic is receding into the rear view mirror.  Maybe some kids from the southern hemisphere will come up during their summer to ski for the season.


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## 1dog (Nov 7, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Bummed Sage is closed.  Liked that place.  That building was empty for years after Egan's shut down.
> I assume the dispensary will be in the lower level where the mad river distillery shop was?  Is it going to be a retail dispensary or medical only?
> 
> I wonder if the labor situation will ease somewhat now that the pandemic is receding into the rear view mirror.  Maybe some kids from the southern hemisphere will come up during their summer to ski for the season.


That would help, but where will they lodge?
Wonder what % of problem is cost of housing, lack of housing?
Pay?
Availability of workforce?
Sure it’s a combo but affordable housing solves a large portion of pay problem.
Young folks want the experience more than the higher pay.
Make sense?


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## camberstick (Nov 7, 2022)

The lack of cheap rentals that we all had access to  years ago is gone. Being a ski  bum isn't  accessible like before. It's hard enough to get help  outside a mountain town.


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## 1dog (Nov 7, 2022)

yup, remote work, one homestead instead of two, cashing out in wherever urban area to move to the rural, pay any amount asked because a. money is free ( thx to the Federal Reserve easy money policies of last 14 years); b. buy up other inexpensive rental property to Airbnb it. c. eat in more. d. have city money to spend in rural area.

We aren't alone - have a close friend in MS ' Penn family sells $650K cape and moves down, buys 4 houses in Hattiesburg - one for them, 3 for rental income all cash - and still have $100K left over. . . . . .


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## hovercraft (Nov 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> It was my understanding that the Worthy Burger location will not be a dispensory.  I heard it was going to be a processing plant.  Either way the single biggest issue in the valley for restauraunts is Labor.  The staff is still just not there.  I have been into Flatbread, Mad Taco, Hyde Away, Tucker Hill and Bluestone over the last few weeks and had long conversations with many of the bar tenders and staff.  There are just not enough people to do the work.  Flat Bread which is by far the most sucessful place is still working with 1/2 the staff which is making them stay with the order at the bar thing.  Even this winter they are saying they will keep it that way with less table tops availible to manage the crowd.


Ordering from the bar is here to stay.  Thats the only way for a lot of restaurants can stay in business as there is no help to be found as you point out.  It’s happening in big cities where there is a bigger population to choose from, (but still no workers to be found). I can think of 5 restaurants in Burlington that have converted to that model in the past 18 months. (they can’t find help even in a college town).  Zero gravity has gone as far to have no hostess at all.  You walk in, find your own table seat yourself if you can find one.  If not you hover until you find a table, seat yourself, go to the bar, order your food and beverage then it gets delivered by a food runner.  They have stations set up in every room where you get your own water, napkins, silver, and condiment.  The only human contact you have with the staff is the encounter with the bartender and the food runner.  Very different experience compared to 3 years ago.  So much empathy for these restaurants in small area like MRV.  The business is hard enough on its own without the help issue.  To much of a grind, not worth doing it, life is to short so they close up.  Not sure how that environment changes.  It’s sad on many levels……..


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 8, 2022)

i dont really mind counter/bar service for most informal food. helps the restaurants keep the lights on then I'm for it


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## IceEidolon (Nov 8, 2022)

At some point if it keeps on like this you'll have to build a restaurant as a four story apartment building with the top three floors being employee housing.


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## Blurski (Nov 8, 2022)

This morning


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 8, 2022)

Snowmaking at North?  I wonder if they are blowing at South?


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2022)

Surprised they were blowing at ME already...although perhaps they wanted to test the new pipes a bit? They're still going at ME too as can be seen on the Walt's webcam. Nothing happening at LP though that is visible on any of the cams.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 8, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> At some point if it keeps on like this you'll have to build a restaurant as a four story apartment building with the top three floors being employee housing.



that's kind of how i assume a lot of old restaurants in NYC survive. they've owned the real estate since 1955, the pizza place loses money, they rent out 8 apts upstairs.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2022)

camberstick said:


> The lack of cheap rentals that we all had access to  years ago is gone. Being a ski  bum isn't  accessible like before. It's hard enough to get help  outside a mountain town.


There was never really cheap rentals in the Valley, it's always been expensive to live/rent there.  What little cheap stuff there was, was gross.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Surprised they were blowing at ME already...although perhaps they wanted to test the new pipes a bit? They're still going at ME too as can be seen on the Walt's webcam. Nothing happening at LP though that is visible on any of the cams.


Could see it being a test but they also normally have WC training their for a few teams and Elbow is a good trail for that.


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2022)

tumbler said:


> There was never really cheap rentals in the Valley, it's always been expensive to live/rent there.  What little cheap stuff there was, was gross.


The last time I rented was in 2006.  We rented a 900 sf unit at Village Run Condos for $6K for the season.  2 bed on bath.  I bet they aer now $10k - $12K


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2022)

tumbler said:


> There was never really cheap rentals in the Valley, it's always been expensive to live/rent there.  What little cheap stuff there was, was gross.



That doesn't necessarily surprise me. But if that's the case, what's driving the current labor issue in the valley?



tumbler said:


> Could see it being a test but they also normally have WC training their for a few teams and Elbow is a good trail for that.



That thought went through my mind too...but if they don't feel it is favorable weather for making snow at LP (i.e. maybe concerned it will be washed out from Nicole's remnants), then I would think that same concern would apply to ME even to try to get Elbow open for WC training.


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## hovercraft (Nov 8, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont really mind counter/bar service for most informal food. helps the restaurants keep the lights on then I'm for it


Agreed!!!!


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2022)

Maybe they will surprise us and go back to full Rim Run & Elbow opening and then Upper FIS for the Turkey Tumble!


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2022)

Looks like the new pipies and valveson Rim run and elbow are working good.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2022)

They are firing up guns at the top of LP


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2022)

Good Catch.  Yup I agree.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 8, 2022)

If you can't find help..in bagel store for 25 an hour..
Well..I have no answer..


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## SkiTheEast (Nov 8, 2022)

Nice little drone shot over at North, elbow as mentioned 









						Sugarbush, Vermont on Instagram: "And so it begins..."
					

Sugarbush, Vermont shared a post on Instagram: "And so it begins...". Follow their account to see 2721 posts.




					www.instagram.com


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## Hawk (Nov 8, 2022)

My firewall will not allow facebook or Instagram so I never get so see any of those posts.


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## tumbler (Nov 8, 2022)

They are online down to Allyn's.


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## slatham (Nov 9, 2022)

For those in the know, any chance they are targeting Elbow and Northridge for early season GMVS training? They have also been training area for Swiss women in prior years prior to Killington WC. And Inverness has been late to get covered these past few years IIRC. So might they be pushing for Northridge to run with downloading on GME?

Edit: or summit, as I see Summit running this am, whereas  NR still has chairs on the ground.


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## tumbler (Nov 9, 2022)

They would be pushing for Summit with downloading on GMX.  My guess is they did not blow from summit to top of northridge to save it for when temps are only good up top.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2022)

From what  saw on the web cam, it did not look like they were blowing lower elbow down to North ridge yet.  It looked like they were blowing the cut over back to the summit chair.  There has been no suttlebutt about opening up Ellen Early but if they have snow, I am sure they will reach out to the ski teams to let them know.


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## Hawk (Nov 9, 2022)

Also Northridge is not even close to being ready for the season.


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## foofy (Nov 9, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The last time I rented was in 2006.  We rented a 900 sf unit at Village Run Condos for $6K for the season.  2 bed on bath.  I bet they aer now $10k - $12K


I rented a similar (renovated) unit there in 2013.  $7.5K for the season.  $12K or more now very likely.


----------



## Blurski (Nov 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> If you can't find help..in bagel store for 25 an hour..
> Well..I have no answer..


I drive by that sign everyday on Rt 7 & think $50k a year to work in a bagel shop and it appears they are not getting any takers.  If that was the pay in the valley 4 ski bums probably could make it work.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 9, 2022)

If you can't live close enough to commute because there just aren't any open long term rentals, and all the locals already have jobs... From how far away are your staff gonna drive?


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 9, 2022)

This is in Burlington...no shortage of people there...


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## HowieT2 (Nov 10, 2022)

temps look crappy until sunday.
I'm trying to talk my wife n daughter into going up for thanksgiving instead of going to the inlaws.  This is not helping my cause.


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## drjeff (Nov 10, 2022)

slatham said:


> For those in the know, any chance they are targeting Elbow and Northridge for early season GMVS training? They have also been training area for Swiss women in prior years prior to Killington WC. And Inverness has been late to get covered these past few years IIRC. So might they be pushing for Northridge to run with downloading on GME?
> 
> Edit: or summit, as I see Summit running this am, whereas  NR still has chairs on the ground.



The GMVS athletes are out in Colorado now, and will be through Thanksgiving time (pretty sure that's what my friend who's daughter is a student there posted on his FB page recently).

The academies have all basically realized that pre Thanksgiving, the training is in Colorado at Copper, Loveland and A-Basin, as the snow is more reliable, and with most academies across the country doing the same thing, the competition is good there too


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## IceEidolon (Nov 10, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> temps look crappy until sunday.
> I'm trying to talk my wife n daughter into going up for thanksgiving instead of going to the inlaws.  This is not helping my cause.


What's your threshold? There should be decent snowmaking after the weekend, at least enough to get something open.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 11, 2022)

My threshold is zero.  The ladies in the other hand….


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## 1dog (Nov 12, 2022)

Mount Ellen (Vermont) Weather Forecast (1244m)
					

Mount Ellen (Vermont), Green Mountains, Appalachians, United States Mountain weather forecast for 1244m. Detailed 6 day mountain weather forecast for climbers and mountaineers.



					www.mountain-forecast.com


----------



## slatham (Nov 12, 2022)

Guns and hoses.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 12, 2022)

slatham said:


> Guns and hoses.


G N’ R, welcome to the jungle 




__





						iCloud
					

Sign in to iCloud to access your photos, videos, documents, notes, contacts, and more. Use your Apple ID or create a new account to start using Apple services.




					share.icloud.com


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## Los (Nov 12, 2022)

Soft opening Friday… fingers crossed…


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

Well this is interesting. Looks like on the LP side the snow-making is currently taking place on GH using the new pipe/guns installed over there.


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## Los (Nov 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Well this is interesting. Looks like on the LP side the snow-making is currently taking place on GH using the new pipe/guns installed over there.


That’s what I thought I had heard - that they were going with pushover for an early opening…


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## Newpylong (Nov 14, 2022)

And I said, "why would they make snow there in November?" Foot in mouth lol.

Some action on Upper Rim Run, Elbow and a little on the bottom of Lower Rim run at Ellen it looks like too.


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## teleo (Nov 14, 2022)

This is a different plan.  Was the last cam I looked at.  With all the new gear and forcast, they should definitely be able to open sat.


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## oldfartrider (Nov 14, 2022)

According to the web site the kick off party is at Mt Ellen on Saturday


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> According to the web site the kick off party is at Mt Ellen on Saturday


Opening at North?!


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Opening at North?!


Highly unlikely considering all the chairs aren't even on GMX (or NRX for that matter).

The kick off party mentioned is just the annual Big Kicker party. I can't recall where it was last year, but for a number of years this was at American Flatbread if I recall correctly.


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## Hawk (Nov 14, 2022)

Where did you see Mt Ellen?  I went to the conditions page and this is what they said.

"The mountain has awakened with snowmaking operations underway up high at Mt. Ellen and on the Gate House side at Lincoln Peak. Temps look promising throughout the week, and we remain hopeful to kicking the season off soon. 
Our projected Opening Day is currently Saturday, November 19th, weather permitting, but we expect to have a much better picture of if we can make that a reality as the week progresses. We will continue to share updates as we have them. 
We've also been busy investing over $7 million in on mountain improvements this summer, and can't wait to have you experience our new snowmaking, grooming, and cabin cat upgrades. In the meantime, dust off those skis, make sure you have your pass, Quad Pack, or lift tickets purchased, and whip yourself into shape. We'll be skiing soon."

They were not specific on where they were opening first.  I would love a mt Ellen opeing but I bet they are saving that for the racers.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> And I said, "why would they make snow there in November?" Foot in mouth lol.



I had "defended" the fact that it could be a target in November, but that was still with it being 2nd or 3rd in line behind VH and HG terrain...never expected to see that the first trails they hit.



Hawk said:


> Where did you see Mt Ellen?  I went to the conditions page and this is what they said.
> 
> "The mountain has awakened with snowmaking operations underway up high at Mt. Ellen and on the Gate House side at Lincoln Peak. Temps look promising throughout the week, and we remain hopeful to kicking the season off soon.
> Our projected Opening Day is currently Saturday, November 19th, weather permitting, but we expect to have a much better picture of if we can make that a reality as the week progresses. We will continue to share updates as we have them.
> ...



He's talking about The Big Kicker party listed on the events page:





						The Big Kicker
					






					www.sugarbush.com


----------



## Los (Nov 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Opening at North?!





thetrailboss said:


> Opening at North?!


That would be a funny rumor to let fly around - but no, they are definitely NOT opening Mt Ellen before Lincoln Peak (which will have a soft opening Friday unless there’s a change in the weather…)


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## oldfartrider (Nov 14, 2022)

On the calendar


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## oldfartrider (Nov 14, 2022)

The Big Kicker
					






					www.sugarbush.com


----------



## slatham (Nov 14, 2022)

As you all know I speculated that GH would be earlier than past years due to new pipes etc., but never expected it be first! When I saw no guns up high on the cam my first and only thought was a technical issue. Go figure.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2022)

I would have preferred them hammer snowball->fling to get that open first than pushover.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I would have preferred them hammer snowball->fling to get that open first than pushover.



Exactly...unless the thought process is they have enough time to do both, so get GH snow down first so it can sit and dry before grooming. Then do the VH side and if people have to ski it ungroomed if they run out of time for it to dry and be groomed, it wouldn't be as much of an issue as an ungroomed GH route.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 14, 2022)

In the past hasn't sugarbush's approach been to work down low when they have the temps?  They are probably just rolling with that on pushover to tryout their new setup and because they have the temps at the base.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

slatham said:


> As you all know I speculated that GH would be earlier than past years due to new pipes etc., but never expected it be first! When I saw no guns up high on the cam my first and only thought was a technical issue. Go figure.


That was actually my first thought too. Actually my thought process when I saw no guns up high was as follows..."Maybe they're doing Spring Fling first. Nope. Maybe they have an issue? Oh, maybe they decided to do GH first. Yup, that's what they're doing"


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## teleo (Nov 14, 2022)

I'm thinking same as cd.  Can they cover pushover with all the new toys in a few days, let it sit, groom and soft open fri.  Meanwhile hammer snowball fling and open sat with 2 chairs top to bottom.  Sb fling being swales and active guns for all us crazies.  I sort of like it if they can pull it off.  Weather seems to be cooperating.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Highly unlikely considering all the chairs aren't even on GMX (or NRX for that matter).
> 
> The kick off party mentioned is just the annual Big Kicker party. I can't recall where it was last year, but for a number of years this was at American Flatbread if I recall correctly.


Ah, OK.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Where did you see Mt Ellen?  I went to the conditions page and this is what they said.
> 
> "The mountain has awakened with snowmaking operations underway up high at Mt. Ellen and on the Gate House side at Lincoln Peak. Temps look promising throughout the week, and we remain hopeful to kicking the season off soon.
> Our projected Opening Day is currently Saturday, November 19th, weather permitting, but we expect to have a much better picture of if we can make that a reality as the week progresses. We will continue to share updates as we have them.
> ...



Here:



oldfartrider said:


> According to the web site the kick off party is at Mt Ellen on Saturday


 Apparently it is just their rail jam event.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 15, 2022)

Yup they have that every year.  It is just a pile of snow with one rail and they do tricks for the crowd.  That is why It did not register with me.


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2022)

So no snow making on Heavens Gate at all right now.  They are concentrating on Gate House so it looks like they will open with that.
Over at Ellen they have from the summit down rim run to the summit chair covered now.  It looks like elbow also.  The GMX has chairs on it and is spinning as well as the summit lift and the Gate house lift also is spinning.  That looks like that is the plan.  We will have to see what opens first.


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## Newpylong (Nov 15, 2022)

Looks like they're working towards this at Ellen:


----------



## tumbler (Nov 15, 2022)

Yes, and they are probably doing Panorama at the summit too for the additional trail count.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2022)

anyone know if ski vt and sugarbush will be doing learn to ski month this january? and if so, what the deal entails?

we just booked a sweet house on slide brook road for the first family ski trip in like decades. parents, siblings and their spouses, nephews, in a sweet house for three nights in January. will get the 3 year old nephew on skis, but would love to do it for like $30

this will be the first time i have reliable private vehicle shuttle service to lap slide brook. my mom and girlfriend can lap me back to the base all weekend, which is rad.


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Looks like they're working towards this at Ellen:
> 
> View attachment 55043


Also they have lower rim run down to the summit lift from the top of the Northridge chair to the base of Summit lift.


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## djd66 (Nov 15, 2022)

Looks like they just lit up Spring Fling


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## tumbler (Nov 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Also they have lower rim run down to the summit lift from the top of the Northridge chair to the base of Summit lift.


It's only Rim Run A and Rim Run D (the funnel).  The rest is Elbow to spread eagle.


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2022)

I have no idea what that means.  I know they are doing rimrun from the summit going down past the NR lift down under the summit quadpast looking good and then all the way down to the lift.  Elbow was already covered from last week somewhat.


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## tumbler (Nov 15, 2022)

The map Newpy posted above is what the are running on.  Rim Run A is from the summit to top of NRX.  Rim Run D is from spread eagle to the bottom of Summit lift, otherwise known as the funnel.  If you look at Walt's cam the trail on lookers left is Rim Run C, they are not making snow on it yet.  

From here, depending on temps its either lower elbow->cruiser-> straight shot or the rest of Rim Run, upper FIS and maybe looking good.  I think they are doing this for WC training and not opening MT Ellen early.


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## Newpylong (Nov 15, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Also they have lower rim run down to the summit lift from the top of the Northridge chair to the base of Summit lift.


The middle portion of Rim Run is not online, just the portions I highlighted in the picture are.

Remember Ellen proper has a limited pumping capacity, they are likely at it in the good temps. The Inverness pumps are not being used yet.

Edit: sorry Tumbler I started typing before you posted the above.


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## slatham (Nov 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> The middle portion of Rim Run is not online, just the portions I highlighted in the picture are.
> 
> Remember Ellen proper has a very limited pumping capacity, they are likely at it in the good temps. The Inverness pumps are not being used yet.
> 
> Edit: sorry Tumbler I started typing before you posted the above


Agreed.

I image GH off due to temps, but cold enough on upper Snowball and very top of Fling still. 

I bet they are working on Mt Ellen for Swiss team training pre-Killingon, and GMVS thereafter. Not to mention having that section done well before scheduled opening day.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2022)

slatham said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I image GH off due to temps, but cold enough on upper Snowball and very top of Fling still.
> 
> I bet they are working on Mt Ellen for Swiss team training pre-Killingon, and GMVS thereafter. Not to mention having that section done well before scheduled opening day.



If the temp at Allyn's lodge is accurate, it is 28 up there (and 32 at the base) at the moment. So I would imagine even upper Snowball is pretty marginal at the moment. I guess they're anticipating the temps dropping as the day goes on and really want to focus on the lower mountain first.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2022)

id like to go this weekend but we have tix for mike birbiglia's new broadway show for Saturday. will wait for after thanksgiving i suppose


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 15, 2022)

i talked to a guy there today, had a question on another subject  and the opening came up. The plan is to get the gate house area open and some combo of jester/organ grinder/spring fling/snowball open for the opening. Didn't talk about ME so I cant comment on that, but thats what i was told today.

Guy also said they are expecting a storm that could bring them a foot of snow this week. let hope that works out.


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## tumbler (Nov 15, 2022)

It will be GH area and SB->Fling.  Jester->DS takes way too long to run to have it open on Friday and they are pretty much starting from scratch up there.


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## Los (Nov 15, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> i talked to a guy there today, had a question on another subject  and the opening came up. The plan is to get the gate house area open and some combo of jester/organ grinder/spring fling/snowball open for the opening. Didn't talk about ME so I cant comment on that, but thats what i was told today.
> 
> Guy also said they are expecting a storm that could bring them a foot of snow this week. let hope that works out.


So 6 inches at the most... Not that 6 inches isn’t great, but actual snowfall seems to almost always fall far short of predictions (very generally speaking)… I immediately halve the estimate so I keep my expectations in check. I can’t cope with disappointment!


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## Blurski (Nov 16, 2022)

Web Site Opening day has arrived, click here, click nothing, anyone have any luck seeing what they are stating as opening day assuming this Friday.


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## urungus (Nov 16, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Web Site Opening day has arrived, click here, click nothing, anyone have any luck seeing what they are stating as opening day assuming this Friday.


Yesterdays Facebook post states this Saturday the 19th will be opening day


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2022)

Email i just got says Saturday on Gatehouse


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## Hawk (Nov 16, 2022)

Opening with Gate House.  
"The wait is finally over and we are ready for Opening Day. With this recent flurry of cold temperatures, we’re officially ready to open this Saturday, November 19th. We’ll be spinning the Gate House Quad from 9:00 AM – 4:00 PM, with at least 3 trails including Pushover, Slowpoke and Sugarbear Road."

That's a first.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2022)

I love shredding Sugarbear Rd


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## slatham (Nov 16, 2022)

Turkey Tumble on Sugarbear Rd!!!


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## Xcreamus (Nov 16, 2022)

I will miss my first opening day in over 10 years.  Love to see Gatehouse open, but for the first day??


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Opening with Gate House.
> "The wait is finally over and we are ready for Opening Day. With this recent flurry of cold temperatures, we’re officially ready to open this Saturday, November 19th. We’ll be spinning the Gate House Quad from 9:00 AM – 4:00 PM, with at least 3 trails including Pushover, Slowpoke and Sugarbear Road."
> 
> That's a first.



That's a first...and a joke honestly. Glad I didn't make any plans to go up for opening day. If that really ends up being what they have open and they don't get anything else ready by then, I can see a lot of people not being too happy. Maybe they're banking on the "under-promise, over-deliver" strategy.


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## tumbler (Nov 16, 2022)

Looks like they shut down, temps don't look so good.  Hopefully precip can stay all snow and fire back up late tonight.

I think they will have SB->Fling by Sunday looking at temps.


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## 1dog (Nov 16, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's a first...and a joke honestly. Glad I didn't make any plans to go up for opening day. If that really ends up being what they have open and they don't get anything else ready by then, I can see a lot of people not being too happy.


Yep, understand they want to get some beginner terrain open but that's not the demographic of the opening day crowd or even pre-Thanksgivng Day - who am I kidding - its not even pre-Christmas demo.

My kid won't be interested - we'll end up at K-Mart. 

Open it -fine, but not in exchange for DS/HG or at least Spring and Snowball/VH lift.

Best we can do is hope for cold and more snow. 
bright side - bet the numbers are down.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 16, 2022)

On the plus side, it looks like about 5" of snow on the Allyn's Lodge snow stake so far...


----------



## Xcreamus (Nov 16, 2022)

What is with the peak stake?  Nothing?  All night?


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## cdskier (Nov 16, 2022)

Xcreamus said:


> What is with the peak stake?  Nothing?  All night?



Too windy...blowing right off the stake.


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## hovercraft (Nov 16, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's a first...and a joke honestly. Glad I didn't make any plans to go up for opening day. If that really ends up being what they have open and they don't get anything else ready by then, I can see a lot of people not being too happy. Maybe they're banking on the "under-promise, over-deliver" strategy.


Very strange opening shot…..


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## djd66 (Nov 16, 2022)

It is definitely very strange to open with Pushover.  I am guessing maybe they wanted to fire up the new equipment to iron out any kinks in the system before they get to the meat of the season?  Still very strange for these trails to be the first to open - given the demographic of people that ski early season.


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## Los (Nov 16, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I love shredding Sugarbear Rd


No doubt - that shit is sweet! 

Haha - sugarbear rd - ridiculous that it’s even a named trail.


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## teleo (Nov 16, 2022)

I love sugarbear rd.  Gets me to bravo from the village when I'm lazy in the morning.

Still hoping for sb fling for at least sun.  This warm up might make sat to tight to announce.  But the natural should put a bit of base down.


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## Los (Nov 16, 2022)

teleo said:


> I love sugarbear rd.  Gets me to bravo from the village when I'm lazy in the morning.
> 
> Still hoping for sb fling for at least sun.  This warm up might make sat to tight to announce.  But the natural should put a bit of base down.


Oh ok - just looked at the map - I was confusing sugarbush rd with sugarbush forest. It’s sugarbush forest that shouldn’t even be named. My bad. What can I say? I rarely ski gatehouse and I don’t own a condo in the village!


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 16, 2022)

They did this with the GH terrain in 2019, we were there for thanksgiving. It was a good time and cost us 29 bucks per person to ski.

This year its $99 per person for a lift ticket. That's the joke.  We were considering doing it again but for $99 bucks per person? no thanks. 

The thanksgiving buffet is AWESOME btw...


----------



## cdskier (Nov 16, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> They did this with the GH terrain in 2019, we were there for thanksgiving. It was a good time and cost us 29 bucks per person to ski.
> 
> This year its $99 per person for a lift ticket. That's the joke.  We were considering doing it again but for $99 bucks per person? no thanks.
> 
> The thanksgiving buffet is AWESOME btw...



Opening day in November 2019 also had VH terrain opened...not just GH. They also did a soft open that year on Friday for pass-holders.


----------



## Blurski (Nov 16, 2022)

Los said:


> So 6 inches at the most... Not that 6 inches isn’t great, but actual snowfall seems to almost always fall far short of predictions (very generally speaking)… I immediately halve the estimate so I keep my expectations in check. I can’t cope with disappointment!


Things are setting up for some nice upslope activity starting Thursday evening into Sunday.


----------



## Jhammond (Nov 16, 2022)

I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.  
The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.  
As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.

Hope to see you on the mountain on Saturday
John

 Here is a graph of the average base temps since our electric meter read


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Nov 16, 2022)

I don't think that Pushover's that bad. It's one of the more interesting trails they could've opened first, and it's only for a day or two.


----------



## Blurski (Nov 17, 2022)

Jhammond said:


> I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.
> The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.
> As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.
> 
> ...


Open is open, does not matter to me, remember it was in the 60’s with a couple inches of rain less than 1 week ago. 
I say brovo to mountain.


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 17, 2022)

Jhammond said:


> I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.
> The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.
> As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.
> 
> ...



You folks should be confident, those are all sound reason/decisions. Can't please everyone, only can do your best.


----------



## Castlerockrisk (Nov 17, 2022)

John thanks for the update, considering the unusual warm weather your team has had some pretty significant challenges and I think that it is great that you will be open before Thanksgiving. How did the snow making pond Dam and inflation bladder work out- how are we doing with water? Looking forward to a snowy season


----------



## 1dog (Nov 17, 2022)

Jhammond said:


> I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.
> The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.
> As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.
> 
> ...


Whatever our (multiple) opinions are ( like nostrils, we all have a couple) we appreciate your communication. Makes da' Bush unique, unlike other large areas.  Good forecast at 1600' too temp-wise:





						Mount Ellen (Vermont) Weather Forecast (1244m)
					

Mount Ellen (Vermont), Green Mountains, Appalachians, United States Mountain weather forecast for 1244m. Detailed 6 day mountain weather forecast for climbers and mountaineers.



					www.mountain-forecast.com


----------



## cdskier (Nov 17, 2022)

The reason for GH over VH makes sense with those trails needing less snow to open. However given the base area temps I still don't quite understand why they didn't just shift the focus to upper mountain terrain where temps were much better and use downloading on SB. It has been done in the past as recently as last year and at least to me offers a far better skiing product than GH terrain. Trying to force lower mountain terrain open with very marginal temps on the lower mountain is just a bit odd to me.

On a side note, nice to see John make his first post here! It is great to see management participate here. We had that for a long time with Win and it is much appreciated. Welcome and sorry for giving you guys a hard time, but I'm just one person with an opinion. I'm not going to deny that my opinions can be critical at times, but when SB does things well, I'm also very vocal with praising those situations...


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2022)

John- Thanks for posting.  Question, when you move over to VH for SB->Fling would you consider also running Lower SB-> Racer's Edge or Spring Road to get more terrain open then move up top?  Those don't take too much.  Could also add Stein's & Coffee Run but that is too much runtime.  I agree that downloading stinks and Jester->DS is a huge amount of terrain to cover and takes more capacity than what you have.


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## teleo (Nov 17, 2022)

John thanks for keeping us informed here.  Very much appreciated.  Hope it continues.

We all of course want more opened. I was hoping both sides for this weekend too. But given this week didn't stay cold and I was mtn biking and saw kayaks in the valley 2 weeks ago, just glad to be able ski this weekend.


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## slatham (Nov 17, 2022)

Jhammond said:


> I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.
> The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.
> As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.
> 
> ...



Definitely agree with the strategy given the hand dealt. However, it does seem that having the focus at the base has meant missed opportunities at the summit - like right now where it is 16 at the summit and 24 at mid mountain. My guess is that its too heavy a lift to shift from GH to summit for a short period? And I presume tonight when temps drop at the base you will be back on GH (and/or VH)?

Thanks for posting John. And all the luck for a great season!

THINK SNOW!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2022)

Cool for John to chime in. Also cool to have opening day in a different area other than the usual suspects.


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## jaybird (Nov 17, 2022)

Harkening back to November a few years ago .. we were storming the Castle 

Will look forward to the results of the water bolstering work that was done.

Have a Great Season .. one and all !


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## HowieT2 (Nov 17, 2022)

Jhammond said:


> I know the expert skiers will be disappointed in a Gate House opening but when looking at the forecast we could see only limited snowmaking temps to the base so we went with the GH side to get open and start skiing.  It can open with less snow then you need on a steeper trail like Spring Fling and the load area of the VH lift.  Going with Bravo was not an option as the spacing on the hydrants below HG are too spread out and it is a lot of ground to cover to get it open with no natural base and marginal temps.  We also really did not want to open with downloading.  When Killington which has over 5 times the water and air capacity is opening only 2 days earlier I think some of you seasoned posters should appreciate that we will be opening on time 11/19.
> The forecast starting Friday looks cold through the weekend and into the early part of the week and we intend to get the Valley House lift open as soon as we can because we also like skiing steeper terrain and that should come in quicker then downspout to the base.
> As for Mount Ellen, again with the warm temps in the base we knew making snow on Inverness was not going to be successful so we tried to lock in training space for the WC athletes and for GMVS so they can train and not interfere with the public skiing.  We will be moving down to Inverness by the weekend.
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard!  Your input is much appreciated.

For the record and fwiw, I luv bombing down those trails on GH (no idea what the names are except for sleeper and waterfall).  Not an all day kind of thing by any means, but a couple of runs to get in the groove.  I like this skiing thing.  sure beats doing 'nothing at the inlaws.


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2022)

It shows that the improvements over at gate house make a big difference.  That's my take.  I agree that open is open.  I am actually going elsewhere this weekend to ski with some friends.


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## Los (Nov 17, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> I don't think that Pushover's that bad. It's one of the more interesting trails they could've opened first, and it's only for a day or two.


Completely agree - it’s a nice trail. I actually prefer it to spring fling which is my least favorite of all sugarbush trails (Lincoln and Ellen combined)


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## tumbler (Nov 17, 2022)

Los said:


> Completely agree - it’s a nice trail. I actually prefer it to spring fling which is my least favorite of all sugarbush trails (Lincoln and Ellen combined)


Wow, that's a pretty strong take.  Fling is awesome!


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## Los (Nov 17, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Wow, that's a pretty strong take.  Fling is awesome!


It’s boring! But don’t worry - just because we disagree doesn’t mean I want you dead. (I feel like that needs to be stated now thanks to a certain narcissistic sociopath who frequently posts on this forum.)


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## Newpylong (Nov 17, 2022)

Don't worry I am with ya. I don't care for it either and that dates back to when the yellow triple was still there lol.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 17, 2022)

Fling is great when it's deep...loooong.. run..


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2022)

There's quite a few different ways to ski Spring Fling. You can rip down it with GS turns. Do shorter SL turns along the edges. Sometimes you have the bumps on skier's right as an option. Nice long consistent pitch...I enjoy it quite a bit.


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## djd66 (Nov 17, 2022)

cdskier said:


> There's quite a few different ways to ski Spring Fling. You can rip down it with GS turns. Do shorter SL turns along the edges. Sometimes you have the bumps on skier's right as an option. Nice long consistent pitch...I enjoy it quite a bit.


and woods options on both sides,... personally I love ripping GS turns on Fling when the conditions are right - one of my favs on the mountain


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 17, 2022)

A high speed run on snowball and spring fling is fun. I do like the trees in that zone.  I think when the snow is deep it's a really fun are to ski especially the nats


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## cdskier (Nov 17, 2022)

djd66 said:


> and woods options on both sides,... personally I love ripping GS turns on Fling when the conditions are right - one of my favs on the mountain



Eden is a lot of fun and I often jump in there quite a bit.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 17, 2022)

I practiced tree runs in Eden for a while to get used to east coast trees...
Cant get in trouble in there..


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## shadyjay (Nov 17, 2022)

Kudos to the SB team for making it happen on GH side... (hard to believe it was 60-70 deg a week ago).  I always used to like making snow on Pushover.  It was a trail that came into it pretty quick.  I'm assuming its got the Klik hydrants now?  Those are pretty nice.  And all towers too.  

The thing to remember about upper mtn is that its mostly land guns, and Downspout takes awhile to come together.  The temp game used to be "if you got temps down low, run down low".  We just in the past never usually had them down low so early, so up high we went.  SB and Fling are wide trails so they take some time as well to come together, especially at the bottom (below "The Wave").

Have fun up there, hope to get up in January or March (or both?!)


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 17, 2022)

talking about the woods next to spring fling isn't exactly making a case for it lol
now come to think of it, it probably is one of the worst routes at sugarbush. i say routes intentionally, i'm not counting "Trails" like sugarbear road or heavans gate traverse..


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## chuckstah (Nov 17, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> talking about the woods next to spring fling isn't exactly making a case for it lol
> now come to think of it, it probably is one of the worst routes at sugarbush. i say routes intentionally, i'm not counting "Trails" like sugarbear road or heavans gate traverse..


Almost killed myself taking the Eden "route" once. Hit a root? Snow snake? And Supermaned straight towards a tree. Had to Superman right in mid air to miss it. Ouch. The tree ripped off my skis on the fly. Closest call ever, I believe.


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## Hawk (Nov 18, 2022)

I am definately not in the camp of Pushover, easy rider, slow poke.  My reasons........ that lift is the most crowded on most days and it usually take for ever to get up.  The trail is the proving ground for beginers and has most of the lessons going down it.  I am not a total ass and chose so ski slower and with caution to avoid totally freeking out the beginners so that run is usually not my favorite.  Snow ball and spring fling have less beginners and are wide enough to let it go a little more.  And as outher people have stated, there are many ways to ski it.  It is also longer and has 2 lifts that you can access it from.

It's opening day so some most of this is negated because of the people who will be there and as stated before, Sking is sking on opening day.  I will be at sunday river with my old friends and some family this weekend.  Then back to my home for Turkey turns.  We should have more open by then.


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## tumbler (Nov 18, 2022)

Still running on Gatehouse side though.  Hopefully switchover to SB->Fling today to get it open for post turkey runs.  Temps look good.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Still running on Gatehouse side though.  Hopefully switchover to SB->Fling today to get it open for post turkey runs.  Temps look good.


That's an understatement.  Can't recall a pre thanksgiving run of consistent below normal temps as forecatsed.  and who knows, maybe mother nature comes bearing gifts next weekend.


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## slatham (Nov 18, 2022)

Based on what I've read and seen with the weather, I think the choice for tomorrow was skiing on GH, or watching them continue to make snow on a closed Spring Fling, or a closed Jester/DS.

Downloading off of Bravo not an option per management (did they ever do that?)


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2022)

slatham said:


> Based on what I've read and seen with the weather, I think the choice for tomorrow was skiing on GH, or watching them continue to make snow on a closed Spring Fling, or a closed Jester/DS.
> 
> Downloading off of Bravo not an option per management (did they ever do that?)



Yes, they've done downloading on Bravo as recently as last year.


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## slatham (Nov 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yes, they've done downloading on Bravo as recently as last year.



Well, I guess it didn't go well! 

I was out of commission and obviously not paying attention last year, but after typing that did recall that happening in years past.

Hopefully by next weekend it will be a distant memory.......


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2022)

slatham said:


> Well, I guess it didn't go well!
> 
> I was out of commission and obviously not paying attention last year, but after typing that did recall that happening in years past.
> 
> Hopefully by next weekend it will be a distant memory.......



Lincoln Peak only became the early opener in 2007. Since November 2007, almost 50% of the years they opened with downloading on Super Bravo, so not unusual at all.

November 2021
December 2020* - normally this would have been a year where downloading would have been used, but due to COVID they wanted to wait until they could open multiple lifts/routes to spread people out.
November 2016
November 2015
November 2011
November 2010
December 2009 (late start that year and still only upper mountain terrain)
November 2007

Prior to 2007, ME was the early opening mountain (with summit terrain typically and downloading on GMX)


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## flakeydog (Nov 18, 2022)

Thanksgiving of 2006 got super warm. I recall skiing through hay bales spread over the rocks on the top of Rim Run. I believe they shut down for a week before they could recover from that. A said above, I think that was the last time they opened the season at North. Either way, I am happy to ski Gate House with hopes that Spring Fling will not be far behind. Not missing Downspout or downloading at all...


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## Los (Nov 18, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> A high speed run on snowball and spring fling is fun. I do like the trees in that zone.  I think when the snow is deep it's a really fun are to ski especially the nats


Snowball is great - spring fling, not so much. 

By the way, I told my kids I prefer pushover to spring fling and they booed me out of the room - which actually surprised me because I thought they hated spring fling as much as I do. Damn kids! What do they know?


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## flakeydog (Nov 18, 2022)

Surprised at the dislike for Spring Fling here, I think it’s a great trail. Great cruising with just enough pitch to keep you honest, often offers bumps on skiers right and great GS race trail to boot. I even miss the old triple chair at times. There was a a couple of years in the late 80s that Spring Fling (accessed by the old triple) was the pre- thanksgiving opening act. One lift, one trail, no run outs. Problem was it was low elevation and at that time North had more snowmaking.


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2022)

Uhh...there was someone in an orange jacket that has been waiting at the Gatehouse lift for it to open since around 6am it looks like based on what I saw on the webcam. 3 hours to be first on line to ski Gatehouse? I guess that's dedication or something... It was literally still dark out when the guy and his friends got there.


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## Lotso (Nov 19, 2022)

Given how warm November was until last week, I'd say having anything to ski on at this point is better than nothing. I am sure they are doing what makes sense, snowmaking-wise.

Personally, Jester/Deathspout early season is awful. No doubt GH will be a zoo, but likely not the bowling alley that the usual upper mt. options are in the early season.

SB/SF will be next, just hope they make enough snow for once on the last big roll on SB so there are fewer rocks than usual. That area is always a mess....


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## cdskier (Nov 19, 2022)

Lotso said:


> SB/SF will be next, just hope they make enough snow for once on the last big roll on SB so there are fewer rocks than usual. That area is always a mess....



I've always wondered if there's some sort of reason they don't or can't make more snow in that spot. It seems like that spot on upper Snowball has been an issue for as long as I can remember.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Uhh...there was someone in an orange jacket that has been waiting at the Gatehouse lift for it to open since around 6am it looks like based on what I saw on the webcam. 3 hours to be first on line to ski Gatehouse? I guess that's dedication or something... It was literally still dark out when the guy and his friends got there.
> 
> View attachment 55099


People were waiting for opening at Alta at 9pm the night before…..


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## slatham (Nov 19, 2022)

That snowball spot faces SE and with rocks underneath will melt out way quicker than  elsewhere. So it needs an extra thick coating of snow which apparently they don’t do. 

Real surprised how many seasons started with downloading on Bravo. But then again most of my thanksgivings skiing the ‘Bush were back in the ME days. The one since then was so good that they were making snow on North Linx thanksgiving weekend!


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## skiur (Nov 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> People were waiting for opening at Alta at 9pm the night before…..


Why not just hike up?


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 19, 2022)

That...is cookoo....


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## ducky (Nov 19, 2022)

Parker's a dedicated 14yo kid. Big time skier and champ mt biker too. He was on the first chair. Bet he was on his Stöcklis.


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## cdskier (Nov 20, 2022)

tumbler said:


> John- Thanks for posting.  Question, when you move over to VH for SB->Fling would you consider also running Lower SB-> Racer's Edge or Spring Road to get more terrain open then move up top?  Those don't take too much.



Looks like the answer is "yes" as they're currently making snow on Racer's and Lower SB (in addition to still working on SB/Spring Fling)


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## jaybird (Nov 20, 2022)

See y'all Tuesday.
Gonna be Great !


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2022)

skiur said:


> Why not just hike up?


Bragging rights for first chair.


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## Los (Nov 21, 2022)

Had a fun afternoon at the Bush yesterday. Snowmakers did an excellent job! Very nice way to ease into the season, but looking forward to more terrain coming online soon….


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## tumbler (Nov 21, 2022)

Maybe VH tomorrow?  There're up there pushing out the piles.


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## Hawk (Nov 21, 2022)

LOL  What happened to the " We need to let the piles dry out before we groom them"  
Anyway, good more terrain.  Why are they not blowing somewhere else?  There are no guns on right now.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> LOL  What happened to the " We need to let the piles dry out before we groom them"
> Anyway, good more terrain.  Why are they not blowing somewhere else?  There are no guns on right now.



I was thinking the same thing to all these points...

The snow report however now shows snowmaking on DS, Jester, and OG. Maybe they're between shifts on the snowmaking crew and the next shift is firing up those trails this evening?

Snowball and Spring Fling (and the VH chair) are all now listed in the report as opening tomorrow as well.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2022)

Hawk said:


> LOL  What happened to the " We need to let the piles dry out before we groom them"
> Anyway, good more terrain.  Why are they not blowing somewhere else?  There are no guns on right now.



Ahh...and now I think I see why they didn't wait to groom. The women's Swiss team is training on SB and Spring Fling tomorrow morning until 10am.


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## tumbler (Nov 21, 2022)

Why are they training on Spring Fling?  Pushover would be a much better option for them.


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## cdskier (Nov 21, 2022)

Looking at the web cams...looks like the snow-making crew headed up Heaven's Gate about 45 minutes ago or so...


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## slatham (Nov 21, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Why are they training on Spring Fling?  Pushover would be a much better option for them.



LOL.

I thought the same thing about grooming out before a proper cure. Swiss team explains it.

I also questioned why no snowmaking, and concluded (hoped)  that it was simply that they hadn't  switched to summit yet. These next few/several days will be way more conducive to making snow up high.


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## djd66 (Nov 22, 2022)

Is there my reason why there is no snowmaking going on?  Seems like it’s cold enough.  Did they just shut off snowmaking on SF so the Swiss team can train and then they will turn it back on for the paying customers tomorrow?


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Is there my reason why there is no snowmaking going on?  Seems like it’s cold enough.  Did they just shut off snowmaking on SF so the Swiss team can train and then they will turn it back on for the paying customers tomorrow?



Odd...I saw the snowmakers heading up HG last night. (I also briefly caught a glimpse of one snow-maker sliding down in front of Allyn's lodge on that cam last night too). Hope they didn't run into an issue. The snowmaking icons next to Jester, OG, and DS are all gone now from the report too. They were there last night. So seems they had planned to make snow up top, but something changed.


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## slatham (Nov 22, 2022)

Per their web site its 18 at summit and 26 at mid at 10am. So they had temps last night, and still do. So that makes we worry.......

For reference, Stratton is actively making snow from 2,500' and up........


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## Hawk (Nov 22, 2022)

Maybe they ran out of water.  They will have plenty after Friday it appears.


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2022)

slatham said:


> Per their web site its 18 at summit and 26 at mid at 10am. So they had temps last night, and still do. So that makes we worry.......
> 
> For reference, Stratton is actively making snow from 2,500' and up........



Yup...and I want to say it was around 16 at the summit when I went to sleep last night. Definitely cause for concern...


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## djd66 (Nov 22, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Maybe they ran out of water.  They will have plenty after Friday it appears.


Not good if they ran out of water (this early in the season) after only blowing on 2 trails.  If that is the case (and I have no idea if it is) $7mm on new equipment seems like a waste.


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2022)

Another crew headed up HG a little while ago. Guns are visible as being on at the top of Jester now...if something was wrong, it must be fixed now. Still not good to lose a solid 12-18 hours of upper mountain snow-making time.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 22, 2022)

do you have their youtube channel running at all times


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> do you have their youtube channel running at all times



LOL...no. I just take a quick peak at it between meetings (although this week is pretty quiet at work as tons of people are on vacation). Don't forget that you can quickly rewind the cams over the past 12 hours or so on Youtube...so I don't need to see things in real time to actually see them!


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 22, 2022)

I wasn't aware of the rewind...  I'll check that out


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## cdskier (Nov 22, 2022)

Yea...that's a great feature. Otherwise there's virtually no chance I'd see most of the things I mention.


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## shadyjay (Nov 22, 2022)

Speaking from experience, there could have been numerous issues preventing the guns from running.  There could have been a bad hydrant or other leak/issue.  Water you can isolate on certain sections of the mountain (depending on where you're making snow) but air is pretty much a constant all over the mountain (except North Lynx I believe).  If something happens to an air hydrant on Hot Shot, you have to shut the whole system down, repair, then fire it back up.  And it ain't turnkey... it all takes time.  Early season I recall having to search numerous trails looking for open air hydrants, under the cover of darkness.  

Rest assured, they'll get it done.


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## jaybird (Nov 22, 2022)

You could see Jester was lit up today tho guns and hoses above Valley House lift were dormant. 
Temp was rather warm.
Golf balls everywhere on Spring Fling.

Lara Gut skiing very well


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## Newpylong (Nov 22, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Speaking from experience, there could have been numerous issues preventing the guns from running.  There could have been a bad hydrant or other leak/issue.  Water you can isolate on certain sections of the mountain (depending on where you're making snow) but air is pretty much a constant all over the mountain (except North Lynx I believe).  If something happens to an air hydrant on Hot Shot, you have to shut the whole system down, repair, then fire it back up.  And it ain't turnkey... it all takes time.  Early season I recall having to search numerous trails looking for open air hydrants, under the cover of darkness.
> 
> Rest assured, they'll get it done.



God it's the worst when a hiker decides to open a ball valve in the middle of nowhere and walk away. Hey why isn't the air coming up? Lol. 2 hours later and lot of riding/walking around listening...


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## jaybird (Nov 22, 2022)

Rampant societal dysfunction .. Sucks 
Snow makers deserve better


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## dustyroads (Nov 23, 2022)

Maybe Jeff can confirm this. While walking at the snow pond I meet a guy who said, they are having problems with the new dam. He said, the dam is not allowing the pond to refill fast enough. The pond was very low on Monday evening.


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## tumbler (Nov 23, 2022)

If true, that is not good.  I was a bit skeptical of how an inflatable dam would work in the river especially when the sediment builds up behind it and when the flow picks up.  I hope they can get it worked out.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 23, 2022)

tumbler said:


> If true, that is not good.  I was a bit skeptical of how an inflatable dam would work in the river especially when the sediment builds up behind it and when the flow picks up.  I hope they can get it worked out.


I'm no engineer but that doesnt seem like rocket science


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## djd66 (Nov 23, 2022)

They used an inflatable dam for a multi million dollar snowmaking system?


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## Keelhauled (Nov 23, 2022)

My understanding was that it's not really a dam but more of a weir to divert water into the snowmaking reservoir, not to create a reservoir itself. I imagine actually damming the river with a permanent structure was a total nonstarter both financially and regulatory.


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## djd66 (Nov 23, 2022)

I hate to try and speculate as I have ZERO knowledge of their snowmaking pond, but if they have an issue getting enough water - if will be a tough season.  Lets hope we get 300" of natural and problem is solved until next summer.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 23, 2022)

Yes inflatable weir that they have to deflate when flow in river is below a certain threshold


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## Newpylong (Nov 23, 2022)

djd66 said:


> They used an inflatable dam for a multi million dollar snowmaking system?



Yes, that is the defacto standard in Vermont to accommodate legal limits of minimum cubic feet per mile ("CSM") of natural flow rate. Mount Snow's (still fairly new) West Lake snowmaking project relied upon an inflatable dam to divert water into the pond.


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## Hawk (Nov 25, 2022)

Just waiting for the precip to slow down a bit to get out.  Very gusty.  We took this time today to break down the two massive turkey bodys we inherited from yesterday's feast to make turkey soup.  Just boiling down the bones.  Looking good.  I Bet CD can reccomend a good wine.  We were thinging Pinot.  Maybe chianti.  LOL  Hope everybodies Thanksgiving was grand.


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## Hawk (Nov 25, 2022)




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## cdskier (Nov 25, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Just waiting for the precip to slow down a bit to get out.  Very gusty.  We took this time today to break down the two massive turkey bodys we inherited from yesterday's feast to make turkey soup.  Just boiling down the bones.  Looking good.  I Bet CD can reccomend a good wine.  We were thinging Pinot.  Maybe chianti.  LOL  Hope everybodies Thanksgiving was grand.
> View attachment 55157


Looks good! I'd lean towards Pinot Noir myself with that!


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## tumbler (Nov 25, 2022)

Nice to knock some rust off today for a few runs in the rain.  Top of VH it was trying to snow so hopefully tomorrow there will be some addition.  Going to be a zoo I think.


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 25, 2022)

if i had a nickel for every time i see a jerry with gear that's nicer than I'll ever have, I'd have enough money to buy that gear


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## thetrailboss (Nov 25, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> if i had a nickel for every time i see a jerry with gear that's nicer than I'll ever have, I'd have enough money to buy that gear


No joke. I saw a kid in his late 20s or early 30s pull into Alta Wednesday afternoon during a snowstorm with a brand new Porsche convertible. Certainly did not look like he had snow tires on it!


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 26, 2022)

Won't be new for long..


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## slatham (Nov 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> No joke. I saw a kid in his late 20s or early 30s pull into Alta Wednesday afternoon during a snowstorm with a brand new Porsche convertible. Certainly did not look like he had snow tires on it!



Was the top down ? LOL......


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## Lotso (Nov 26, 2022)

jaybird said:


> You could see Jester was lit up today tho guns and hoses above Valley House lift were dormant.
> Temp was rather warm.
> Golf balls everywhere on Spring Fling.
> 
> Lara Gut skiing very well


And she won today at Killington!


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## Blurski (Nov 28, 2022)

I heard a “rumor” that the diesel backup engine on Brovo did not pass inspection and parts are ordered but no ETA. 
I hope this is not true or the part is available. It ran all summer for MTB, so if true just bad luck/timing.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2022)

Blurski said:


> I heard a “rumor” that the diesel backup engine on Brovo did not pass inspection and parts are ordered but no ETA.
> I hope this is not true or the part is available. It ran all summer for MTB, so if true just bad luck/timing.


FWIW that lift is now close to 30 years old. How the hell did that happen?!


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW that lift is now close to 30 years old. How the hell did that happen?!



Which also means several other lifts are close to 30 since Otten installed a bunch that year. But Bravo by far has the most hours on it since it is used more than just in the winter...


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## Blurski (Nov 28, 2022)

Wow, I had no idea Super Brovo was 30 years old, only been skiing theBush for 10 years, just assumed it was newer.


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## Newpylong (Nov 28, 2022)

It's 27 years old, same as Gate House and Slidebrook, they were all put in new that year ('95). North Lynx and North Ridge were also relocated for the same season. I was lucky enough to be at GMVS and we watched them fly towers for what seemed like weeks and weeks. That fall they made snow up off the summit of Ellen in October to demonstrate all of the snowmaking that was put in and ASC's first year owning the place. Boy they made a lot of snow those first few years.

/end nostalgic rant


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## oldfartrider (Nov 28, 2022)

Super Bravo runs the most out of those 3. Slide Brook is practically new cause it rarely runs.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 29, 2022)

Blurski said:


> I heard a “rumor” that the diesel backup engine on Brovo did not pass inspection and parts are ordered but no ETA.
> I hope this is not true or the part is available. It ran all summer for MTB, so if true just bad luck/timing.


Isnt that just a diesel generator?  Those things are pretty ubiquitous, I would think, unless they're all being sent to Ukraine.


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## Hawk (Nov 29, 2022)

Are you kidding Howie.  Anything to do with generators are way out there.  I have projects in the pipeline where the generators are 1.5 to 2 years out right now.  Not knowing what parts they need but I would bet they have some kind of lead time also.....that is if the rumor is true. ;-)


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## djd66 (Nov 29, 2022)

maybe they can pull parts from slidebrook?


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## Newpylong (Nov 29, 2022)

If by generator you mean it's an internal combustion engine that turns a shaft then sure, but other than that the similarities end. 

It's essentially a horizontal engine, with a transmission and then reduction gears and a right angle drive to distribute the output vertically down to the bull wheel. Highly specialized to each lift.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Wow, I had no idea Super Brovo was 30 years old, only been skiing theBush for 10 years, just assumed it was newer.


Technically 27 years old. It was added in '95 when Les Otten came to town with $28 million and lots of hopes and dreams. He added Gatehouse, Bravo, Slide Brook, relocated the old Bravo to North Lynx, moved the original GMX to North Ridge, added the infamous "Slug" (Green Mountain Quad), and upgraded snowmaking. It was impressive. Actually, batshit crazy considering how much work was done in one summer.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2022)

Whatever the issue is, it doesn't seem like Sugarbush is overly concerned as their recent social media posts indicate they're focusing snowmaking on getting Bravo open as soon as possible before expanding to HG.

Although in retrospect, if there being an issue with the diesel backup on Bravo is true, that would certainly explain why they didn't consider opening HG terrain with SB for downloading as an option and opened GH first instead.


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## oldfartrider (Nov 29, 2022)

Snow report says they r making snow on Jester as well as Allyn’s traverse and Valley House traverse. I wonder if that’s the new reverse traverse trail.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> Snow report says they r making snow on Jester as well as Allyn’s traverse and Valley House traverse. I wonder if that’s the new reverse traverse trail.



?

The "new" reverse traverse hasn't been cut. The ACT 250 approval came too late.

Allyn's Traverse and Valley House Traverse have both been named trails for quite some time. Allyn's Traverse goes from where Jester becomes an all natural trail over towards and past Allyn's lodge to where it runs into the Valley House Traverse. VHT then is that run that you would normally use to get from Super Bravo to the trails on the Valley House side.


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## oldfartrider (Nov 29, 2022)

Ok Reverse Traverse is on the trail map though.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> Ok Reverse Traverse is on the trail map though.



Reverse Traverse has been on the trail map for years... (since 1992 to be exact...previous to that it was on the map but labeled Heaven's Gate Traverse all the way across)


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## HowieT2 (Nov 29, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Are you kidding Howie.  Anything to do with generators are way out there.  I have projects in the pipeline where the generators are 1.5 to 2 years out right now.  Not knowing what parts they need but I would bet they have some kind of lead time also.....that is if the rumor is true. ;-)


huh, who knew.  Maybe we can all pool our AAA batteries into a backup


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## HowieT2 (Nov 29, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> If by generator you mean it's an internal combustion engine that turns a shaft then sure, but other than that the similarities end.
> 
> It's essentially a horizontal engine, with a transmission and then reduction gears and a right angle drive to distribute the output vertically down to the bull wheel. Highly specialized to each lift.


Fascinating.  I always thought that the lifts ran off electricity and the backup generators just replaced the normal electrical supply.  Guess I need to stick to my day job.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Fascinating.  I always thought that the lifts ran off electricity and the backup generators just replaced the normal electrical supply.  Guess I need to stick to my day job.



An electric motor could die or have a problem without it being an issue with the power being supplied to it. That's the logic why the diesel needs to actually run the lift directly.


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## Castlerockrisk (Nov 29, 2022)

They were running Bravo on the diesel for several hours yesterday, I did not notice any Bravo lift activity today. They were blowing snow above the Valley house today. So hope its a false rumor


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2022)

Ok for the lift experts out there…..I could have sworn hearing of a lift that ran, loaded, for a good part of the season on a “backup diesel engine”. A set up where there was a primary (electric), backup diesel, and emergency diesel (only for offloading). Or was that a figment of my imagination?

Separately, this is a clear scenario justifying the new and improved Reverse Traverse. Hope that gets done next summer.


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## Newpylong (Nov 29, 2022)

Yes that is a possible scenario if a lift is so equipped. GMX (the current one) did this previously. Bravo could have as well the Sugarbush experts would know more.

The Diesel Prime mover is usually sized appropriately to move the lift at or close to Normal speed for long periods. It is not a cheap build option but worth it IMHO.


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## cdskier (Nov 29, 2022)

Yea...GMX was unique in that it had that extra backup. I don't think Bravo has 2 Diesels...


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## Dickc (Nov 29, 2022)

slatham said:


> Ok for the lift experts out there…..I could have sworn hearing of a lift that ran, loaded, for a good part of the season on a “backup diesel engine”. A set up where there was a primary (electric), backup diesel, and emergency diesel (only for offloading). Or was that a figment of my imagination?
> 
> Separately, this is a clear scenario justifying the new and improved Reverse Traverse. Hope that gets done next summer.


I'm not a lift expert, but I know that a few years ago, Loon ran its Kancamagus quad on diesel for days on end as something was wrong with the electric drive somewhere.  I don't know if that backup was a generator, or a direct drive, but I know from other discussions that lits can have TWO diesel backups.  I believe, but am not positive, that lifts are only required to have one, so many lifts only have the one, and that can only used to unload the lift.


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## Newpylong (Nov 29, 2022)

Yes you're required to have an APU available to you at all times.

It's either:

-Electric Prime Mover and Diesel APU (evac only)
-Electric Prime Mover, Diesel Secondary (like we're talking about here), and Diesel APU (evac only). 

There are no generators, the Diesel APUs are geared directly into the bull wheel like the electric motor, oftentimes with completely separate controls and braking systems. The drive terminal can get very crowded up top.


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## Dickc (Nov 29, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Yes you're required to have an APU available to you at all times.
> 
> It's either:
> 
> ...


Thanks for thew clarification as I just was not sure HOW they worked, but knew some came with two, and some only one.


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## ducky (Dec 1, 2022)

Bravo was running yesterday and sounded normal. Did a few laps on both sides and was about what was expected, chunks and crushed over icy base. Worried about what came next with 6-8 hours of heavy rain, road flooding etc. Will take some work to get it back.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 1, 2022)

Repeat of last season...


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Technically 27 years old. It was added in '95 when Les Otten came to town with $28 million and lots of hopes and dreams. He added Gatehouse, Bravo, Slide Brook, relocated the old Bravo to North Lynx, moved the original GMX to North Ridge, added the infamous "Slug" (Green Mountain Quad), and upgraded snowmaking. It was impressive. Actually, batshit crazy considering how much work was done in one summer.


What was the original Bravo chair line? If it was the same as the current Bravo then they must have shortened the old lift a lot when they moved it to Lynx?


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## Boxtop Willie (Dec 1, 2022)

I thought the Nothy Lynx lift is the one that once ran up the side of Spring Fling.


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## shadyjay (Dec 1, 2022)

The Spring Fling Triple was sold to Knoebels Amusement Park in PA around 2001.  North Lynx is, for sure, the old Sugar Bravo. I spotted it right away when I first became a lifty... the lift panel in the shack has space for 20 towers, whereas NL is only 10-12 and the motor room at the bottom terminal, "Sugar Bravo" is behind the "North Lynx" lettering, along with "Lift C".


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## Newpylong (Dec 1, 2022)

IIRC the Spring Fling triple was yellow (the chairs) right up to its last hour and was a Borvig. I don't recall it running once even on the busiest of weekends when I was there '95-'99. May not even have been inspected, dunno.

As Jay said, NL is absolutely the old Sugar Bravo shortened.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> What was the original Bravo chair line? If it was the same as the current Bravo then they must have shortened the old lift a lot when they moved it to Lynx?


IIRC it was the same line essentially. North Lynx is a shortened version.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> IIRC it was the same line essentially. North Lynx is a shortened version.


Ugh, that must have been a long slow ride. Perhaps even by 30 years ago standards


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Ugh, that must have been a long slow ride. Perhaps even by 30 years ago standards


Yep. They split the gondola into Heavens Gate and Sugar Bravo Triple Chairs in 1984 IIRC.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Ugh, that must have been a long slow ride. Perhaps even by 30 years ago standards



Probably better than the gondola.  IIRC the line was just under 10,000 feet in length!  And given the time period it probably moved at about 600-800 fpm, especially given it's not just an old gondola, it was a VERY early gondola from the late 50s!


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## 1dog (Dec 2, 2022)

And a 3 passenger if memory serves? Or was that Wildcat I remember? Have one hanging in my yard but still can't recall of 3 or 4 pass.


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2022)

1dog said:


> And a 3 passenger if memory serves? Or was that Wildcat I remember? Have one hanging in my yard but still can't recall of 3 or 4 pass.


Wildcat was only a 2 person and barely that.


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## Hawk (Dec 2, 2022)

Yup it was a 3 person Italian made Carlevaro & Savio.  My first years skiing at Sugarbush was in high school and I got a chance to ride it.  That was the early 80's.  I had no idea that the top burnt down in 72 and they rebuilt it.  See links below.

Sugarbush Gondola
Gondola Top Burns Down in 72'


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## Newpylong (Dec 2, 2022)

The history of the number of Eastern Mountains that had similar top to bottom first gen gondies is pretty amazing if you ask me. They're all gone/shortened now.


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## crank (Dec 2, 2022)

I'm an old crank but IMO the top of Sugarbush skied a lot better back in the gondola days.


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## oldfartrider (Dec 2, 2022)

Ya I had a special short board for riding the wildcat gondola. 147 I think it was.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Probably better than the gondola.  IIRC the line was just under 10,000 feet in length!  And given the time period it probably moved at about 600-800 fpm, especially given it's not just an old gondola, it was a VERY early gondola from the late 50s!


Sure, but the gondola ran base to summit so it's sort of  
 It wasn't before my time but unfortunately I never got to ride it.


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## jaybird (Dec 2, 2022)

crank said:


> I'm an old crank but IMO the top of Sugarbush skied a lot better back in the gondola days.


We were all young and fit .. once


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## shadyjay (Dec 2, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> IIRC the Spring Fling triple was yellow (the chairs) right up to its last hour and was a Borvig. I don't recall it running once even on the busiest of weekends when I was there '95-'99. May not even have been inspected, dunno.
> 
> As Jay said, NL is absolutely the old Sugar Bravo shortened.



Back in the early 90s, pre-ASC, Bravo was a 15+ minute ride.  Gate House was a double with a 10 1/2 minute ride time.  When the new lifts went in, it was a game changer, for sure.  

Spring Fling was blue in its last years... I do remember Bravo being yellow.  It was later painted grey and a few years ago you still could've seen the yellow paint flaking through.  I remember riding it a few times.  We would come up during the Christmas/NYE holiday week so it was running then.  Holiday week 92/93 (or 93/94) Bravo had no snow so it wasn't open.  North had more snowmaking than South did back then.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2022)

I rode Spring Fling once in 2001. That was it.


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## Newpylong (Dec 3, 2022)

That was it's last year at SB I think, good catch!


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## Hawk (Dec 3, 2022)

Yes the last year was 2000 - 2001.  They sent to PA.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 3, 2022)

I don't think Sugarbush should continue touting their 7 million snowmaking upgrades.  I know Sugarbush normally starts out slow, but this is awful.
How can Ikons crown jewel ski resort in the east have the same vertical and terrain acreage open as Wachusetts?  Wachusetts is a good ski area but its not Sugarbush.  I imagine the temperatures in Princeton aren't nearly as cold as Warren Vermont.  Plus Wachusetts doesn't have the elevation like Sugarbush. 
So how can both mountains have the same amount acreage open if Sugarbush just dumped 7 million for upgrades?


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## cdskier (Dec 3, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don't think Sugarbush should continue touting their 7 million snowmaking upgrades.  I know Sugarbush normally starts out slow, but this is awful.
> How can Ikons crown jewel ski resort in the east have the same vertical and terrain acreage open as Wachusetts?  Wachusetts is a good ski area but its not Sugarbush.  I imagine the temperatures in Princeton aren't nearly as cold as Warren Vermont.  Plus Wachusetts doesn't have the elevation like Sugarbush.
> So how can both mountains have the same amount acreage open if Sugarbush just dumped 7 million for upgrades?



For another comparison...Belleayre in the Catskills has 26 trails (10 miles/83 acres) open. So double the number of acres as Sugarbush...

Not to say the $7M Sugarbush spent wasn't meaningful and important in the grand scheme of things...but when the limiting factor is smaller windows of cold weather to make snow in the early season, the only upgrades that will ultimately matter are ones that allow you to pump more GPM out on the hill at once to take more advantage of those smaller windows.


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## Hawk (Dec 3, 2022)

The trails that are open and have snow on them have new pipe and guns from upgrades this year and previously.  Also the 7 million was not all about snowmaking.  They did a bunch of lift maintenance.   I would be the first to bitch but this year the weather really has not cooperated.  I am holding on my judgement so far.  I am waiting to see what Altera does in the furture.  People need to realize that this is sugarbush and not some snowmaking mega giant.  Not yet at least.  Be patient.


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## Newpylong (Dec 3, 2022)

It hasn't been everyone's year so far either. Killington had 3 blowouts and lost irreplaceable snowmaking time. They're behind the pack too, Cup or not Cup.


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## RH29 (Dec 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> For another comparison...Belleayre in the Catskills has 26 trails (10 miles/83 acres) open. So double the number of acres as Sugarbush...


And that's where my season will begin tomorrow! Pretty shocking that Belleayre of all places has the highest % of open terrain in the East and is in the top 5 for most acreage.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 4, 2022)

Belleayre is usually underrated...it can be pretty good for a day.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 4, 2022)

same thing every year.  Sugarbush is not a snowmaking giant and what limited capacity they have is divided between LP and Mt Ellen.  Whatever has been made over at Mt Ellen is sitting untouched and the trails/acreage that would be open are not reflected in the current stats until mt ellen opens for business in a few weeks.

meanwhile, temps this week look unhelpful.  at the least the pond should fill up.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> same thing every year.  Sugarbush is not a snowmaking giant and what limited capacity they have is divided between LP and Mt Ellen.  Whatever has been made over at Mt Ellen is sitting untouched and the trails/acreage that would be open are not reflected in the current stats until mt ellen opens for business in a few weeks.
> 
> meanwhile, temps this week look unhelpful.  at the least the pond should fill up.


I am not saying Sugarbush is a Snowmaking giant.  I am comparing Sugarbush vs Wachusetts open terrain. I would consider Sugarbush a top 5 resort in New England.  I wouldn't consider Wachusetts(nothing against Wachusetts)  a top five resort.  So how can a Small mountain in Mass have the same snowmaking production output as a Large ski resort in New England plus Sugarbush has the advantage with cold and elevation.  They shouldn't be touting their snowmaking upgrades when the end results is the same.


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## urungus (Dec 4, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am not saying Sugarbush is a Snowmaking giant.  I am comparing Sugarbush vs Wachusetts open terrain. I would consider Sugarbush a top 5 resort in New England.  I wouldn't consider Wachusetts(nothing against Wachusetts)  a top five resort.  So how can a Small mountain in Mass have the same snowmaking production output as a Large ski resort in New England plus Sugarbush has the advantage with cold and elevation.  They shouldn't be touting their snowmaking upgrades when the end results is the same.


FYI, it’s “Wachusett”. They usually punch above their weight in snowmking, two years ago they were first to open in the Northeast:  https://www.telegram.com/story/spor...-opening-northeast-goes-wachusett/6389756002/


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am not saying Sugarbush is a Snowmaking giant.  I am comparing Sugarbush vs Wachusetts open terrain. I would consider Sugarbush a top 5 resort in New England.  I wouldn't consider Wachusetts(nothing against Wachusetts)  a top five resort.  So how can a Small mountain in Mass have the same snowmaking production output as a Large ski resort in New England plus Sugarbush has the advantage with cold and elevation.  They shouldn't be touting their snowmaking upgrades when the end results is the same.


One thing I will say is that when you look at a map you see that the runs at Sugarbush are much, much longer top to bottom. For example, the Jester -> Deathspout -> Lower Deathspout -> Coffee Run route is probably over three miles. Even trying to do something off Valley House or Bravo is probably over 2 miles in length and requires a lot of coverage. At Ellen (which has a MUCH better set up for early and late season) you are still looking at probably 3+ miles from top to bottom of wide terrain. Sugarbush is tall and has looonnnnggg runs that require lots of time to open. Even with more pumping capacity you still have a lot to cover.

Back in the day folks would get all excited when Woodbury (CT) opened, but there is no comparison--it is a hell of a lot easier to open 10 acres and one pitch than 3 miles and much more acreage.

Wachusett, as said, has a powerful system but let's be honest--they only have to get ONE lift to get going and maybe a 1-1.5 mile straight shot (or two runs) to get open. That's way easier than Sugarbush.

Granted in all my years as a Sugarbush passholder I really wanted them to open early, but if the weather ain't there or if the cold spells are short than it is frustrating. Stowe spent a ton of $$$ on their snowmaking but even there their runs are relatively straight up and down and still shorter than top of LP down to the base. I may be mis-remembering Stowe, but my recollection is that the Four Runner is about a mile in length and the runs off of it are on the 1-1.5 miles long.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 4, 2022)

Stowes main runs are pretty wide and take at least a week of blowing. Liftline is a monster and the gondi area is huge..


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## jaybird (Dec 5, 2022)

Not to mention .. WaWawa has an actual water supply that doesn't rely on a dam.

We're not yet at 'the day of infamy' .. 
Get Bravo open and smiles appear !

4pm update .. today was woeful..


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## ducky (Dec 5, 2022)

Taking Back the Mountains
					

Big resorts are crowded, pricey and exclusive. But some skiers and snowboarders are trying to reclaim their sports by building a culture that is more inclusive and sustainable. Here’s how.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Written by local backcountry skier, David Goodman.


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## slatham (Dec 5, 2022)

If the bush were serious about being an early season contender, they’d focus on Mt Ellen off Summit lift. As it is they are content with just having something open for Thanksgiving.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2022)

slatham said:


> If the bush were serious about being an early season contender, they’d focus on Mt Ellen off Summit lift. As it is they are content with just having something open for Thanksgiving.


That ship sailed about 15 years ago.....


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2022)

Exactly.

They used to open first on Mt. Ellen. But since the development at Lincoln Peak, it’s been Lincoln Peak first. It’s just not “sexy” tot heir hotel clientele to have to shuttle a couple miles for early season skiing.

Ignoring financials, is it feasible to do a Base-to-Base gondola if/when Slidebrook kicks the bucket?


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## 1dog (Dec 5, 2022)

ducky said:


> Taking Back the Mountains
> 
> 
> Big resorts are crowded, pricey and exclusive. But some skiers and snowboarders are trying to reclaim their sports by building a culture that is more inclusive and sustainable. Here’s how.
> ...


Well,

I can't get onto site, but expect that the title/sub-title says it all - skiing , especially at large resorts, has always been pricey and expensive. Soon as I hear or read  the words sustainable and inclusive, you can bet they want to use someone else's money to subsidize someone else's skiing and subsidize the energy to turn lifts and make snow. If you're a writer tho- using those words will get you a better chance at getting published. Meanwhile his backcountry skiing guide for NE was a good read.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> Exactly.
> 
> They used to open first on Mt. Ellen. But since the development at Lincoln Peak, it’s been Lincoln Peak first. It’s just not “sexy” tot heir hotel clientele to have to shuttle a couple miles for early season skiing.


Correct.


doublediamond said:


> Ignoring financials, is it feasible to do a Base-to-Base gondola if/when Slidebrook kicks the bucket?


No. The SBX was a negotiated deal involving SB, USFS, and the State. It is what it is. Any replacement would have to follow that line.


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## cdskier (Dec 5, 2022)

slatham said:


> If the bush were serious about being an early season contender, they’d focus on Mt Ellen off Summit lift. As it is they are content with just having something open for Thanksgiving.



I'm not so sure that ME Summit would be considered "early season contender" material. ME has less GPM than LP as far as snowmaking. This year I don't see them having been open any earlier (actually I'm not even sure a single ME summit route would have been done when they had GH open...the last bit of Lower Rim Run was looking pretty thin on the cam when GH opened). Even right now, unless they had shifted focus at ME to skip making any snow at lower elevations, they'd have maybe 2 or 2.5 routes at best off the summit with downloading required on GMX. Is that better than what they have at LP right now (essentially 1 route on VH plus 1 3/4ish routes off GH...but at least no downloading needed). And I think they're a lot closer to getting more stuff open at LP than they would be to having more ready at ME. At ME there isn't even any snow made at the base of North Ridge yet, never mind at the base of GMX. Do they still have to make snow at Inverness at ME as well for GMVS commitments? If so that also hurts the ability to get too much else open earlier at ME. (No cam pointed at Inverness so I can't see what, if anything, was made there yet).


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Belleayre is usually underrated...it can be pretty good for a day.


Let's keep Belleayre out of the Sugarbush thread.


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 5, 2022)

Anyone skied that last up section of the slide brook liftline coming from Lincoln (or, the first down section coming from Ellen)? The one that's super gnarly with cliffs. I've seen tracks (or track, rather) down it before and it obviously needs a ton of snow but it's something that always has interested me.


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## ducky (Dec 6, 2022)

Let's keep politics out of the Sugarbush thread too.


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## jaybird (Dec 6, 2022)

Spoke yesterday with a guy in the know.
The snowmaking pond inflatable dam posts/weirs were built too tall .. this caused the 'spillway' some issues due to insufficient water flow into the area that they need. Would have expected more competence from the engineering firm's designer on a critical element .. 

Supply chain issue of a high order


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## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'm not so sure that ME Summit would be considered "early season contender" material. ME has less GPM than LP as far as snowmaking. This year I don't see them having been open any earlier (actually I'm not even sure a single ME summit route would have been done when they had GH open...the last bit of Lower Rim Run was looking pretty thin on the cam when GH opened). Even right now, unless they had shifted focus at ME to skip making any snow at lower elevations, they'd have maybe 2 or 2.5 routes at best off the summit with downloading required on GMX. Is that better than what they have at LP right now (essentially 1 route on VH plus 1 3/4ish routes off GH...but at least no downloading needed). And I think they're a lot closer to getting more stuff open at LP than they would be to having more ready at ME. At ME there isn't even any snow made at the base of North Ridge yet, never mind at the base of GMX. Do they still have to make snow at Inverness at ME as well for GMVS commitments? If so that also hurts the ability to get too much else open earlier at ME. (No cam pointed at Inverness so I can't see what, if anything, was made there yet).



Water volume is seldom an issue early season, and Inverness is an entirely separate water system.  If they were serious about early season (and there probably isn't the market to be), then the setup at Ellen is far better than Lincoln for that. It's when you start to get into late fall when the temperatures (usually) begin to drop where Lincoln would start to get ahead in the amount of terrain that could be covered more quickly vs Ellen. If they were content with Rim Run/Panorama plus maybe another just to get open then there is more than sufficient capacity at Ellen for that venture. As much I get the lure of it, kinda doesn't make sense to me though to just have to shift gears back to Lincoln for the holiday(s).


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Water volume is seldom an issue early season, and Inverness is an entirely separate water system.  If they were serious about early season (and there probably isn't the market to be), then the setup at Ellen is far better than Lincoln for that. It's when you start to get into late fall when the temperatures (usually) begin to drop where Lincoln would start to get ahead in the amount of terrain that could be covered more quickly vs Ellen. If they were content with Rim Run/Panorama plus maybe another just to get open then there is more than sufficient capacity at Ellen for that venture. As much I get the lure of it, kinda doesn't make sense to me though to just have to shift gears back to Lincoln for the holiday(s).



Interesting that Inverness is completely separate as I swear it seemed like I recall numerous times they were making snow on Inverness and nowhere else at ME at the same time over the past few years.

To the rest though, you kind of proved my point. You can get 1-2 routes off the summit open at ME quickly, but that's where it ends. After that LP has the advantage (and the advantage will only grow larger in the future when they eventually increase the snowmaking capacity at LP). To me simply 1-2 routes off the ME summit isn't worth it compared to the possibility of getting more terrain open at LP.


----------



## Lotso (Dec 6, 2022)

Nothing on Inverness. Burst pipe in the first snowmaking window, dug up, repaired, buried, repair broke. Dug up again and now waiting for temps like everywhere else.

I miss the early/late season at ME upper pod, but real estate and infrastructure for tourists drivethe bus and that's at LP.


----------



## Lotso (Dec 6, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Anyone skied that last up section of the slide brook liftline coming from Lincoln (or, the first down section coming from Ellen)? The one that's super gnarly with cliffs. I've seen tracks (or track, rather) down it before and it obviously needs a ton of snow but it's something that always has interested me.


No, but skied the main Slide Brook pitch from Lincoln last day Slide Brook was open several years ago. Was a hoot. I know an old master plan called for a lift pod in there- would be outstanding upper intermediate terrain.


----------



## skiur (Dec 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Correct.
> 
> No. The SBX was a negotiated deal involving SB, USFS, and the State. It is what it is. Any replacement would have to follow that line.



Unless they greased the right wheels and renegotiated.  Doubtful but nothing is impossible.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2022)

skiur said:


> Unless they greased the right wheels and renegotiated.  Doubtful but nothing is impossible.


True.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Interesting that Inverness is completely separate as I swear it seemed like I recall numerous times they were making snow on Inverness and nowhere else at ME at the same time over the past few years.
> 
> To the rest though, you kind of proved my point. You can get 1-2 routes off the summit open at ME quickly, but that's where it ends. After that LP has the advantage (and the advantage will only grow larger in the future when they eventually increase the snowmaking capacity at LP). To me simply 1-2 routes off the ME summit isn't worth it compared to the possibility of getting more terrain open at LP.



The pump house is right next to the little pond across from the bottom of the Quad. They share air, but the water is separate. As far as I remember two smaller pumps in there.

Our points diverge because I was saying the lack of water would not detract from Ellen's ability to get minimal terrain open early season. It's the Thanksgiving time frame (which I guess you could still call early season for sure) where they would be leapfrogged by Lincoln as things cool down. That's all.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 6, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> The pump house is right next to the little pond across from the bottom of the Quad. They share air, but the water is separate. As far as I remember two smaller pumps in there.
> 
> Our points diverge because I was saying the lack of water would not detract from Ellen's ability to get minimal terrain open early season. It's the Thanksgiving time frame (which I guess you could still call early season for sure) where they would be leapfrogged by Lincoln as things cool down. That's all.



Maybe the air is the issue then and they don't have enough air to run Inverness plus other terrain?

I think one reason our points diverge is because we're thinking of different definitions of early season. To me I'm considering opening by Thanksgiving as "early season" as I see no reason for SB to realistically think about pushing for earlier than that. Let K keep the "early early" season title. It just isn't worth it and I don't see the ROI with opening earlier.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 6, 2022)

Inverness water used to be tied into the main system and the pumphouse at the bottom was a booster for the whole mountain and not used very much but that was during the loud snowmaking times.  They might have re-plumbed though.  The reason nothing else is running when Inverness is online is because that trail takes up all the capacity, it is huge.  Add in running lower brambles and nothing is leftover.  
I do like the new early season of VH lift, I wish they had got lower snowball and racers edge done too to spread the crowd out a bit.  Then go big and get Steins and coffee run and claim the earliest steepest terrain opening.  Not a fan of GH early opening but when I look at the camera it is getting used.  It is a long slow slog from the summit to the base at LP.  Once all of lower jester gets done then birdland and murphys can follow.  Just need better consistent temps.  And maybe a better balloon in the river.


----------



## slatham (Dec 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That ship sailed about 15 years ago.....


Yes all to aware. Key word was IF. 

That was great pod back in the day. Hell they even had FIS open for thanksgiving some years - Turkey Tumble. I am sure we’d all rather ski FIS and Rim and Elbow vs GH and SB/SF.

But yeah it ain’t happening…..

And yes this year it wouldn’t have made much difference - maybe a week? But under typical fall weather - assuming that still exists - the ME Summit could open weeks before GH/VH, IMHO.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2022)

slatham said:


> Yes all to aware. Key word was IF.
> 
> That was great pod back in the day. Hell they even had FIS open for thanksgiving some years - Turkey Tumble. I am sure we’d all rather ski FIS and Rim and Elbow vs GH and SB/SF.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I am an admitted Sugarbush North/Mount Ellen fanboy.


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2022)

I'd rather start at LP with VH/SB and avoiding having to deal with downloading at ME (funny that not too long ago in this thread people were saying they hated downloading on Bravo...yet now people want to download on GMX to ski the summit at ME as the early option). Usually they can get HG in the mix pretty soon after VH/SB opens to add some nice variety. I don't find the summit terrain at ME that overly compelling compared to LP. FIS is fun, but short. Not really a trail I enjoy lapping. Rim Run is also not really a trail I like lapping. 

Don't get me wrong, I love ME when the mid-mountain is open and the Inverness pod is open. But summit only I find somewhat limited and not overly exciting.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Maybe the air is the issue then and they don't have enough air to run Inverness plus other terrain?
> 
> I think one reason our points diverge is because we're thinking of different definitions of early season. To me I'm considering opening by Thanksgiving as "early season" as I see no reason for SB to realistically think about pushing for earlier than that. Let K keep the "early early" season title. It just isn't worth it and I don't see the ROI with opening earlier.



Yes, I am referring to prior to Thanksgiving IE playing with the big boys. That's why I said probably not worth it...and once you get into Thanksgiving it makes no sense to focus efforts there by that point.


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 6, 2022)

Lotso said:


> No, but skied the main Slide Brook pitch from Lincoln last day Slide Brook was open several years ago. Was a hoot. I know an old master plan called for a lift pod in there- would be outstanding upper intermediate terrain.


Yes that's called Elevator Shaft, if I understand you correctly. Not particularly upset about the expansion not happening but I could go either way.


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## shipyardcreek (Dec 6, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Yes that's called Elevator Shaft, if I understand you correctly. Not particularly upset about the expansion not happening but I could go either way.


I heard it called Plunging Elevator. When the snow is good it is a fun little run. Just don't go below the second work road. Also watch for the rocky section near the bottom. If need to bail, there is a work road about halfway down that takes you to the official Slide Book runs.


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## Hawk (Dec 7, 2022)

So much helpful information on here.  Everybody is a reqular tour guide.  nice.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'd rather start at LP with VH/SB and avoiding having to deal with downloading at ME (funny that not too long ago in this thread people were saying they hated downloading on Bravo...yet now people want to download on GMX to ski the summit at ME as the early option). Usually they can get HG in the mix pretty soon after VH/SB opens to add some nice variety. I don't find the summit terrain at ME that overly compelling compared to LP. FIS is fun, but short. Not really a trail I enjoy lapping. Rim Run is also not really a trail I like lapping.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love ME when the mid-mountain is open and the Inverness pod is open. But summit only I find somewhat limited and not overly exciting.


This.  unless the nrx is running, mt ellen is not a full day of skiing for me.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 7, 2022)

skiur said:


> Unless they greased the right wheels and renegotiated.  Doubtful but nothing is impossible.


If you really needed the one seat ride you could replace three lifts and get a three stage gondola going. That would be way more trouble than it's worth, but it's technically possible.


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## tumbler (Dec 7, 2022)

Mediocre snowmaking temps and no snow forecast upcoming after this warm up.  Bummer.


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## Castlerockrisk (Dec 7, 2022)

The last two days of warm weather, mist and rain has eaten into the trail layer pretty severely. In quite a few spots we are down to the last few inches of boiler plate and some brown and dirt spots showing. I was pretty surprised how much we lost between yesterday and today vs Monday. The winter has yet to set in.


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## oldfartrider (Dec 8, 2022)

Looks like snowmaking weather starting Thursday night?


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## tumbler (Dec 8, 2022)

More like Monday/Tuesday.  Don't get a lot of production in the upper 20's.  Is the golf course open?


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## Lotso (Dec 8, 2022)

Looks good at 2800', according to NOAA. Round the clock for next week. Should get things patched up and then get more terrain open, and freeze the bare ground which helps once you start tossing snow on it.

*Tonight*
Partly cloudy, with a low around 17. Wind chill values as low as zero. Windy, with a north wind 25 to 29 mph.
*Friday*
Sunny, with a high near 26. Wind chill values as low as -2. Windy, with a north wind 23 to 28 mph.
*Friday Night*
Mostly clear, with a low around 18. Blustery, with a northeast wind 15 to 20 mph decreasing to 9 to 14 mph after midnight.
*Saturday*
Sunny, with a high near 26. East wind 6 to 8 mph.
*Saturday Night*
Mostly cloudy, with a low around 21. South wind 8 to 10 mph.
*Sunday*
Cloudy, with a high near 25. Southeast wind 3 to 7 mph.
*Sunday Night*
A 30 percent chance of snow showers before 1am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 20. Light and variable wind becoming north 6 to 11 mph after midnight.
*Monday*
Mostly sunny, with a high near 22. North wind 16 to 18 mph.
*Monday Night*
Partly cloudy, with a low around 17. Blustery, with a north wind around 21 mph.
*Tuesday*
Mostly sunny, with a high near 22. Blustery, with a northwest wind 21 to 24 mph.
*Tuesday Night*
Partly cloudy, with a low around 17. Windy, with a north wind 23 to 28 mph.
*Wednesday*
Partly sunny, with a high near 26. Blustery, with a northeast wind 15 to 20 mph decreasing to 8 to 13 mph in the afternoon.


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## slatham (Dec 8, 2022)

Pretty consistent cold temps at 925mb/2,500’ assures at least night time snowmaking and likely round the clock up high starting tonight. Late next week trending better. In fact if this finally comes together last nights cold front is the start……


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## Blurski (Dec 8, 2022)

Did anyone notice if the left the hoses on Snowball, Spring Fling & Pushover or are they all up on Jester & Downspout?  Maybe part of the $7m included more hoses so they can leave some in place to facilitate a quicker response to resurfacing & moving around, seems like a lot of time is spent moving hoses around at least in the past. I don't know what they cost but a 2.5"x 100' DBL jacket 800psi fire hose costs about $500/ea, 2/gun x 100 guns = $100k. I have no idea if all the hoses are standardized or how long them need to be.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 8, 2022)

The Sugar Bash is the weekend with the Grift.  Good times for sure.  But it is 6 to 9.  Geeze the sidewalks rollup earlier and earlier.  What are we going to do with the rest of the night?  I'd be willing to chip in to get the Grift to stay another hour.  WFT  LOL


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## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Did anyone notice if the left the hoses on Snowball, Spring Fling & Pushover or are they all up on Jester & Downspout?  Maybe part of the $7m included more hoses so they can leave some in place to facilitate a quicker response to resurfacing & moving around, seems like a lot of time is spent moving hoses around at least in the past. I don't know what they cost but a 2.5"x 100' DBL jacket 800psi fire hose costs about $500/ea, 2/gun x 100 guns = $100k. I have no idea if all the hoses are standardized or how long them need to be.


Offhand it's more like 2x 25' or 2x 50' 1.5" or 2" - I'd ballpark $200 - $400 per gun. Still a significant number. 

If you let hoses get buried by leaving them attached through natural snow you can create just as much work as moving them from trail to trail. Not that that's much of a concern in a typical Northeast early season...


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## slatham (Dec 8, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Offhand it's more like 2x 25' or 2x 50' 1.5" or 2" - I'd ballpark $200 - $400 per gun. Still a significant number.
> 
> If you let hoses get buried by leaving them attached through natural snow you can create just as much work as moving them from trail to trail. Not that that's much of a concern in a typical Northeast early season...


Done properly you hang the hoses on the tower base so they are easy to find and ready to go when next needed.


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## Newpylong (Dec 8, 2022)

Isn't Pushover Klik now? If so that's a moot point. Spring Fling and Snowball have towers, so yeah the hoses should be blown out, reattached to the gun and left draped somewhere visible until snowmaking season is over then brought inside for the off season. Some places just leave them outside all the time. Better of the longevity of the hose if you can haul em in though. Not sure what SB's current practice is there. Maybe they do haul hose around from fixed gear to fixed gear.


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## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2022)

I don't care if you can find one end if skiers have compacted snow over the other end - I'd rather drag hoses than dig for hoses.


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## cdskier (Dec 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Isn't Pushover Klik now? If so that's a moot point. Spring Fling and Snowball have towers, so yeah the hoses should be blown out, reattached to the gun and left draped somewhere visible until snowmaking season is over then brought inside for the off season. Some places just leave them outside all the time. Better of the longevity of the hose if you can haul em in though. Not sure what SB's current practice is there. Maybe they do haul hose around from fixed gear to fixed gear.


Yea...Pushover should be Klik now.

Generally speaking though SB does a lot of hauling of hoses around the mountain.


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## djd66 (Dec 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Isn't Pushover Klik now? If so that's a moot point. Spring Fling and Snowball have towers, so yeah the hoses should be blown out, reattached to the gun and left draped somewhere visible until snowmaking season is over then brought inside for the off season. Some places just leave them outside all the time. Better of the longevity of the hose if you can haul em in though. Not sure what SB's current practice is there. Maybe they do haul hose around from fixed gear to fixed gear.


I would think dragging hoses around is much more wear and tear on the hose than leaving it in one place.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Dec 8, 2022)

Dragging hoses over snow is no big deal, dragging them over dirt is another story.

The problem with leaving hoses at the hydrant is that the hoses get buried and lost. Used to be in the spring time you could see up to six or eight sets of hoses at each hydrant because all of the previous hoses had been buried and lost. Digging out buried hoses is a real fucking pain in the ass.

Then there’s the whole matter of how the hoses were put away when they were last used. Were they blown out properly? Were they stored in a way that they would be able to be used? Firing up a gun with kinked up frozen hoses can be a total nightmare. And, that’s talking about firing up an old style air water gun that will allow a lot of ice to pass through it. With these new high-efficiency guns, there’s no way for rime and ice to be blown out.

Life is much easier if you can use a fresh dry hose each time you fire up.


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## Newpylong (Dec 8, 2022)

That sounds like a training problem. To each their own, but my standard procedure was to shut equipment off, blow the water hoses out with air, re-attach to the gun if right next to the hydrant and hang the other side on the hydrant. If the gun is a long way from the hydrant, then remove off the gun entirely and drape it over something close by (like the hydrant or a tree) where it won't get buried. When you go to fire up again the only snow or ice is within the first 6-12" of either side from dragging (if anything), easily removable. 

Dragging hoses down to thaw and roll up mid-season? No thanks if it can be avoided.


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## cdskier (Dec 8, 2022)

Speaking of dragging hoses...two snowmobiles just drove past the HG lift webcam a few minutes ago doing exactly that


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## slatham (Dec 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> That sounds like a training problem. To each their own, but my standard procedure was to shut equipment off, blow the water hoses out with air, re-attach to the gun if right next to the hydrant and hang the other side on the hydrant. If the gun is a long way from the hydrant, then remove off the gun entirely and drape it over something close by (like the hydrant or a tree) where it won't get buried. When you go to fire up again the only snow or ice is within the first 6-12" of either side from dragging (if anything), easily removable.
> 
> Dragging hoses down to thaw and roll up mid-season? No thanks if it can be avoided.


From close observation this is what Bromley does. Then in off season they store them in mid station pump house. 

I’ve notice from hiking Stratton that in many places they store them on the tower all year long, under the yellow or orange padding that protects skiers from the tower. Appears to be dry and out of sun so a very creative option to slogging them off mountain.


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## oldfartrider (Dec 9, 2022)

I see they made snow on Organgrinder all night


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 9, 2022)

nice. stoked to finally see a true cold snap.


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## teleo (Dec 9, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> I see they made snow on Organgrinder all night


Hopefully that indicates jester is covered.  HG webcam shows the base filling in and the chair was just running.  Hoping for upper mountain this weekend Connected to bottom via lower downspout to coffee run?  
John? Win?


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## jaybird (Dec 9, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Isn't Pushover Klik now? If so that's a moot point. Spring Fling and Snowball have towers, so yeah the hoses should be blown out, reattached to the gun and left draped somewhere visible until snowmaking season is over then brought inside for the off season. Some places just leave them outside all the time. Better of the longevity of the hose if you can haul em in though. Not sure what SB's current practice is there. Maybe they do haul hose around from fixed gear to fixed gear.


 
They haul stuff around where required.
Gives snowboard patrollers something to do 
This is from a couple years ago on Sigi’s.


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## djd66 (Dec 9, 2022)

jaybird said:


> They haul stuff around where required.
> Gives snowboard patrollers something to do
> This is from a couple years ago on Sigi’s.


That looks like a workman's comp claim waiting to happen.


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## Newpylong (Dec 9, 2022)

Mountain Guard would have loved to see us. 2 up on a snowmobile, 20 lb LP tank on the rider's lap with torch, couple of snowguns around the drivers waist and a bunch of hose dragging behind lol. Common practice.


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## Hawk (Dec 9, 2022)

Any word on the Bravo Chair.  Did they get the parts or will it be another week of Spring Fling - Pushover?


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## tumbler (Dec 9, 2022)

You can lap Village Quad starting tomorrow!


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2022)

tumbler said:


> You can lap Village Quad starting tomorrow!



If that doesn't spell excitement I don't know what does!

Looks like they've pushed out and groomed the snow on the upper part of DS near Allyn's at least so looks like they're getting it ready to potentially open soon. Still guns going on DS near the HG base (although they were winching that area last night). Not sure if DS itself isn't ready enough yet or whether they're still waiting on that Super Bravo rumored issue to be fixed. Whatever it is, hope they get more open soon.


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## slatham (Dec 10, 2022)

True info on Bravo would be appreciated, or why no summit if different reason.


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2022)

Same trails for 4 weeks.  it gets boring.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2022)

That's for sure...but I think of it like going to the gym...gets you in shape for the good stuff...
Nothing like skiing...to get in shape..for skiing.


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## Lotso (Dec 10, 2022)

Bravo spinning on webcam. No load yet but it's alive... hopefully putting through final paces before opening some day

And looks like guns being readied on Ripcord

Bravo and HG spinning Sunday


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## Hawk (Dec 10, 2022)

It's on the snow report now.  Nice.


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## oldfartrider (Dec 10, 2022)

Yup tomorrows looking up


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2022)

Looking better than stowe...maybe..I'll go...


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 11, 2022)

Guns are blowing...lot filling up..might be a bit...busy today..


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## jaybird (Dec 11, 2022)

Finally  .. BRAVO .. to the team !
Lincoln Peak bringing it


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 11, 2022)

Heavens gate lift just went...kerploop...
Damn....


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## hovercraft (Dec 11, 2022)

HG needs to be replaced its a shit lift.  Time to pony up the money along with better snowmaking


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heavens gate lift just went...kerploop...
> Damn....


Whatever it was...it was only closed for a bit over an hour before they reopened it.



Kingslug20 said:


> Guns are blowing...lot filling up..might be a bit...busy today..



Longest line I waited on today was about 2-3 minutes at Heaven's Gate early on.

Looks like they added quite a few tower guns to Lower DS (or at least I don't remember that many towers in the past). I'm guessing maybe they came from Pushover since they put the new HKDs with the Kliks on Pushover now?

Also this being my first time back up in the valley in a while, thought it was interesting that the speed limit on the access road from Golf Course Rd to the mountain is now down to 30 MPH. And the intersection at the end of the access road is now a 4 way stop instead of 3 way.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 11, 2022)

And it's snowing.
Hopefully we get a few..


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## Lotso (Dec 11, 2022)

Heard about lift issues at ME...hope they get them worked out before it opens. Snowmaking looks to be almost T2B.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 11, 2022)

Expectations for snowmaking trails by Christmas
Ripcord, Domino chute, lower OG, lower Jester.
Would they have enough time for Murphys?


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## Lotso (Dec 11, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> Expectations for snowmaking trails by Christmas
> Ripcord, Domino chute, lower OG, lower Jester.
> Would they have enough time for Murphys?


I would think so.. I'd bet Sleeper and lower SB/RE. Really good forecast and Christmas is 2 weeks off

ME: RR, Elbow, WW, NS, Cruiser, CJ, SShot, LGood, Inverness.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Unicorns and rainbows....


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## cdskier (Dec 11, 2022)

Depends where Murphy's falls in the schedule...personally for Christmas I'd prioritize more routes on GH (Sleeper and/or Hot Shot) as well as maybe even try to get North Lynx open to have another lift to spread people out on. Off Super Bravo/Valley House, I'd prioritize Lower Jester, Lower OG, and Lower Snowball/Racers Edge over Murphy's. Depending on timing and weather, it may even make sense to do Birdland first over Murphy's before the holiday so you don't make any snow under the liftline during the holiday. But I don't make the decisions lol.


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## Blurski (Dec 11, 2022)

Did everyone enjoy Organ Grinder today?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 11, 2022)

Slippin and slidin.....


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## Newpylong (Dec 11, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> HG needs to be replaced its a shit lift.  Time to pony up the money along with better snowmaking



It's going to be replaced and you don't click your shoes in Vermont and get more water.


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## djd66 (Dec 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Slippin and slidin.....


So was it any good or crappy?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

It was ok...groomed and a little slick..as opposed to the usual ice mogul field. 
Very fogged in at the top though...


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

Hey...a big 2 inches fell...we're cooking now...


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## djd66 (Dec 12, 2022)

I give any of you credit for making the best of it and skiing on what they have. I skied 3 runs on Saturday and pulled the plug. Maybe after all these years i Actually have a base line of standards.  It sucked. 

if November and the first 12 days of December are an example of winters in the future, Sugarbush really will need to step it up In terms of significant investment in snowmaking power.  They need to have the ability to blow on multiple trails at the same time.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

I skied 9 till 1 yesterday. What else can we do these days. If I watch the reports of feet of snow out west and don't get out there...gets pretty depressing. Looking out my window now...everything covered in snow...
We're getting there...


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

I skied both days for about 4 hours.  It was fine.  The groomers only had one day on OG so it was not going to be perfect groom.  It was manageable with some cookies but worth doing.  The fog at the top made the first pitch interesting but fast the rest of the way down.  I was the last chair from the top when HG wend down.  We were stuck for about 10 minutes before they got us off.  The rest of the trails were fine also.  Jester was entertaining with a real mix of abilities to dodge along with variable conditions.  LOL  Blowing on Ripchord I bet it goes on line by Wendnesday.  What's after that?  Probably lower OG/Jester and Sleeper.  Maybe waterfall.  Then Muphy's / Birdland.


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## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Heard about lift issues at ME...hope they get them worked out before it opens. Snowmaking looks to be almost T2B.


Northrdge is not looking good but a lot can happen in a week.


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## tumbler (Dec 12, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I skied both days for about 4 hours.  It was fine.  The groomers only had one day on OG so it was not going to be perfect groom.  It was manageable with some cookies but worth doing.  The fog at the top made the first pitch interesting but fast the rest of the way down.  I was the last chair from the top when HG wend down.  We were stuck for about 10 minutes before they got us off.  The rest of the trails were fine also.  Jester was entertaining with a real mix of abilities to dodge along with variable conditions.  LOL  Blowing on Ripchord I bet it goes on line by Wendnesday.  What's after that?  Probably lower OG/Jester and Sleeper.  Maybe waterfall.  Then Muphy's / Birdland.


I guess they have given up on their philosophy of letting snowmaking drain for a couple days then grooming.  That will set a nice firm base on OG.


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## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

In my opinion it doesn't make a difference either way.  If they blow really wet snow, it is not going to dryout.  It going to freeze.  The base is always firm on OG unless it snows a ton early season and they start with natural snow.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 12, 2022)

It absolutely makes a difference and will dry out the longer you let it sit.

Just take a look at the water that leaches out from the piles when making base quality snow, it's very noticeable on bare ground.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I guess they have given up on their philosophy of letting snowmaking drain for a couple days then grooming.  That will set a nice firm base on OG.


Yea...I was surprised they groomed out OG so quickly. Still had a ton of chunks/cookies on it today even after another groom last night. I didn't find it particularly enjoyable. Jester was nice. Snowball and Spring Fling were nice as well this morning. They're getting some nice production on Ripcord with the snow-making. Pretty impressive how much there is today compared to yesterday.

To echo djd's earlier comments though, I don't know how some of you have been dealing with just Spring Fling and Gate House up to now. Even with Jester and OG in the mix I can't convince myself to stay out too long.

Just picked up a new helmet at Alpine Options today. My current one I'm sure is quite packed out and not overly effective anymore. I was going to drop my skis off for tuning too, but current turnaround time was Sunday so I'll have to wait a bit until they get caught up a little.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

Tried to get my skis tuned...I do it myself but wanted to see how long it would take at REI
1 week...I'll stick with diy....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 12, 2022)

I was in your REI this weekend!  Much bigger than the REI local to me.  My buddy works at our local REI and knew some of the people in action sports from a training he went to a few weeks ago.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 12, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yea...I was surprised they groomed out OG so quickly. Still had a ton of chunks/cookies on it today even after another groom last night. I didn't find it particularly enjoyable. Jester was nice. Snowball and Spring Fling were nice as well this morning. They're getting some nice production on Ripcord with the snow-making. Pretty impressive how much there is today compared to yesterday.
> 
> To echo djd's earlier comments though, I don't know how some of you have been dealing with just Spring Fling and Gate House up to now. Even with Jester and OG in the mix I can't convince myself to stay out too long.
> 
> Just picked up a new helmet at Alpine Options today. My current one I'm sure is quite packed out and not overly effective anymore. I was going to drop my skis off for tuning too, but current turnaround time was Sunday so I'll have to wait a bit until they get caught up a little.


I was looking at the Allyn's camera earlier and could see the conditions on OG were not that good by how tentative everyone was on the top section with not a lot of snow spray coming off the skis.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

I don't know.  OG yesterday is the same as OG last year is the same as OG any year.  I am glad to be skiing it but OG is OG until it snows.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2022)

I've skied OG a lot over the years...it definitely is not always this chunky.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

Me too for years.  I ski it pretty much every time I go up HG this time of year.   The chunky part is because it only has one day of grooming on it and that is consitent with any trail.   The amount of hard park ice is the same every year no matter if they groom it early or wait.  It's just the nature of OG.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2022)

Today was chunkier than yesterday...and it now had another night of grooming. I'm still going with the issue being they didn't let the piles drain out before grooming them. I've skied it other years after the first/second grooms and it was never this bad.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2022)

OK  I will have to take you word on that.  I did not ski it today.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

You can get expedited ski tuning..for another 22 bucks...
Now your at almost 70.00 for a sharpen and wax....


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 12, 2022)

The weather left them no choice to open trails before draining as they needed to get more terrain open.  Hard start to the season in the east….


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 12, 2022)

Sounds like OG is in mid season form. Why don't they groom OG in the winter?  Especially after a thaw/freeze


----------



## Blurski (Dec 12, 2022)

With smaller amount of terrain to groom each night, do you think it would be beneficial or possible for them to send the entire high season grooming fleet out and just keep making passes, the augers on the cats are at least 6" long, just keep grinding & grinding to make as much sugar as you can.  Yes it costs $, but figure they must be all staffed up in the snow gate area by now.  
I will admit it I have no idea about grooming but have an extensive background in compacting fill material and small lifts, with slow and multiple passes gets you to the required compaction, just revearse engineering, let the machine do the work.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 12, 2022)

The blade is what does all of the grooming, you got to have that in the snow with a curl of snow going.  The tiller just cleans it up and makes it look pretty.  

For grooming OG, that used to get groomed almost every night and Ripcord was rarely groomed- this goes back a number of years.  Grooming Ripcord keeps traffic off DS which we all can agree that is a good thing.


----------



## Blurski (Dec 12, 2022)

So the tiller does not grind up ice? Son of a bitch, I always thought that is what it's primary job was. I stand corrected and go home a little smarter today.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

It's probably my least skied trail...although last year after a dump it was pretty fun...ice and pow...


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> The weather left them no choice to open trails before draining as they needed to get more terrain open.  Hard start to the season in the east….



No choice? You can open HG with whales to start if it needs time to drain and you want to open the summit with more than just Jester. Only reason I could see that not being feasible is if the whales were really oddly formed for some reason. Certainly wouldn't be the first time they opened a trail early season with whales prior to grooming it out...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

Or they just want to open more trails...it's been a bit rough these days.


----------



## Keelhauled (Dec 12, 2022)

Blurski said:


> So the tiller does not grind up ice? Son of a bitch, I always thought that is what it's primary job was. I stand corrected and go home a little smarter today.


It eats chunks of ice up perfectly well, but since it spins in the same direction of travel its natural tendency is to ride over the surface rather than dig in. You can mitigate it somewhat with hydraulic down pressure but only so much. The other problem is the more you till it the finer the particles become and they set up more solidly every night until you get a bit of natural. You can set the tiller to spin in reverse, but that's a guaranteed way to send a chunk of ice through the back window so it's used very carefully. I think park groomers are about the only ones who use that function.


----------



## jaybird (Dec 12, 2022)

Organ Grinder was same as it ever was today.
Sigi - getting hammered.

Who was the guy skiing Birdland ?
 Top to bottom .. Yikes!


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 12, 2022)

cdskier said:


> No choice? You can open HG with whales to start if it needs time to drain and you want to open the summit with more than just Jester. Only reason I could see that not being feasible is if the whales were really oddly formed for some reason. Certainly wouldn't be the first time they opened a trail early season with whales prior to grooming it out...


You are right there is always a choice.  I was coming from the fact that they probably felt pressure to get trails open sooner then later.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

Glad they did...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> You are right there is always a choice.  I was coming from the fact that they probably felt pressure to get trails open sooner then later.


Maybe apples to oranges, but what are the thoughts of SB locals regarding the early season performance of Alterra's other eastern property, Stratton? I saw on Sunday that Stratton had over 100 acres open when compared to SB's 40 or so. Just curious for conversational purposes.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe apples to oranges, but what are the thoughts of SB locals regarding the early season performance of Alterra's other eastern property, Stratton? I saw on Sunday that Stratton had over 100 acres open when compared to SB's 40 or so. Just curious for conversational purposes.



I don't know much about Stratton at all...but I assume they have a lot more snowmaking power just by the nature of them being further south. So like you said, it is an apples to orange comparison. Also fwiw, Sugarbush had 85 acres on Sunday open (the acreage on the Sugarbush trail report wasn't updated initially for some reason when all the new terrain came online off Super Bravo and HG and still showed only 40 which is what it was before that additional terrain opened).


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe apples to oranges, but what are the thoughts of SB locals regarding the early season performance of Alterra's other eastern property, Stratton? I saw on Sunday that Stratton had over 100 acres open when compared to SB's 40 or so. Just curious for conversational purposes.


Definitely Apples to Oranges.

Stratton is a sleeping snowmaking giant with nearly as much capacity (air and water) as anyone else in the East. Unlimited water. Coupled with fairly mellow acreage, they can get terrain open very rapidly.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 13, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> You are right there is always a choice.  I was coming from the fact that they probably felt pressure to get trails open sooner then later.


I think you missed his point.  They did not need to groom it.  They could have just opened it with whales without grooming.  There was no pressure to groom for it to be open.


----------



## slatham (Dec 13, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I think you missed his point.  They did not need to groom it.  They could have just opened it with whales without grooming.  There was no pressure to groom for it to be open.



Unless there were gaps between whales, or frozen whales. Neither of which I would rule out. 

But to your point, properly distributed snow with attention paid to not making wet snow at end (if not making down right dry snow) is perfectly skiable and too many areas will not open in such circumstance.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 13, 2022)

Yes, but as most of us here know, Sugarbush has opened terrain with whales in all kinds of condition.  there may have been gaps as you said above so they chose to groom and open.  I guess whatever now.  It is open.  Now bring on Ripchord.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe apples to oranges, but what are the thoughts of SB locals regarding the early season performance of Alterra's other eastern property, Stratton? I saw on Sunday that Stratton had over 100 acres open when compared to SB's 40 or so. Just curious for conversational purposes.


This is Sugarbush.  Until they finish upgrading and fixing the issues there is no expectation on my part that they will be able to blow snow any faster then they are doing now.  Belive me,  I have done my fair share of bitching on this site but I am not going to compare Sugarbush to anybody else.  Their philosophy has not changed in the 20 years I have skied here except for a few years when Les Otten was in town.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2022)

stratton is also a cone. all lifts essentially end at the same place, at 4000 elevation. seems logistically much easier to work with that set up.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 13, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Yes, but as most of us here know, Sugarbush has opened terrain with whales in all kinds of condition.  there may have been gaps as you said above so they chose to groom and open.  I guess whatever now.  It is open.  Now bring on Ripchord.


Yup...I've skied numerous trails at SB over the years that were opened ungroomed to "allow the snow to drain" as they used to say. Some were great and a lot of fun...some had really oddly shaped whales that were not as fun. I've even seen some Gate House terrain open with whales on it before it was groomed. Like you said though, what's done is done.


----------



## jaybird (Dec 13, 2022)

Not much draining required on belugas left on Ripcord. Awesome work Monday !

Stratton is a different universe. Apples and bananas is a better comparison.

Still wondering about Birdland 
Looked like a Boomer passholder.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 13, 2022)

The snow report says they're moving to Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge next for snowmaking (although also looks like someone accidentally checked off "Lower Snowball Woods" for snowmaking in the trail report instead of "Lower Snowball" ). Seems like a good plan to me to get another VH route done next. If I had to guess, I'd say after Ripcord maybe Lower Jester/Lower OG would make the most sense.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 13, 2022)

Or Sleeper / Waterfall ?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 13, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Or Sleeper / Waterfall ?



Another possibility...I didn't feel like skiing under the guns yesterday or Sunday on the GH side, so I haven't seen whether any equipment was staged at all on those trails.

I think Lower OG/Lower Jester may make a tiny bit more sense first though to give an alternate to Downspout on the Super Bravo side. Then next week you focus on getting another GH route ready before Christmas. Both options make sense to do though before Christmas...just not sure which order they will pick.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Another possibility...I didn't feel like skiing under the guns yesterday or Sunday on the GH side, so I haven't seen whether any equipment was staged at all on those trails.
> 
> I think Lower OG/Lower Jester may make a tiny bit more sense first though to give an alternate to Downspout on the Super Bravo side. Then next week you focus on getting another GH route ready before Christmas. Both options make sense to do though before Christmas...just not sure which order they will pick.


temps look ok through sunday.  hopefully they get snowball/racers edge done before the weekend and then they can move on.

when is mount ellen scheduled to open? next weekend?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 13, 2022)

Or maybe get a foot of snow this weekend...
That would be nice..


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 13, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I think you missed his point.  They did not need to groom it.  They could have just opened it with whales without grooming.  There was no pressure to groom for it to be open.


You are correct they do not need to groom it to open it.  I was coming from the space that a lot of people don’t like to ski or ride on trails with whales on it.  So opening to me was groomed and ready to go.  But your point is well taken…….


----------



## WoodCore (Dec 13, 2022)

> Definitely Apples to Oranges.
> 
> Stratton is a sleeping snowmaking giant with nearly as much capacity (air and water) as anyone else in the East. Unlimited water. Coupled with fairly mellow acreage, they can get terrain open very rapidly.



Agreed! If only they used it to it's full potential! I understand it's a business but.........


----------



## cdskier (Dec 14, 2022)

Looks like they're shutting down snowmaking on at least Upper Ripcord and have opened it for some whale hunting... (I'm just looking at the webcams as I'm working today)


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Looks like they're shutting down snowmaking on at least Upper Ripcord and have opened it for some whale hunting... (I'm just looking at the webcams as I'm working today)


today is wednesday so they probably groom that out friday night or maybe even in the morning before the bulk of the snow.
I just talked the wifey into driving up thursday evening.  what a coincidence.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> today is wednesday so they probably groom that out friday night or maybe even in the morning before the bulk of the snow.
> I just talked the wifey into driving up thursday evening.  what a coincidence.



Yea...I could see them grooming it either Thursday night or Friday night depending on the timing of the bulk of the snow.

I'm already up here. Happy to not have to worry about timing the drive up around a storm for a change!


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yea...I could see them grooming it either Thursday night or Friday night depending on the timing of the bulk of the snow.
> 
> I'm already up here. Happy to not have to worry about timing the drive up around a storm for a change!


driving through the snow is half the fun (don't tell my wife I said that).  but I'm not expecting poor road conditions tomorrow evening.  Have to decide whether to take my pickup with AT all weather tires or the wife's suv with better tires.


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> when is mount ellen scheduled to open? next weekend?



Looks like Wednesday 12/21 (first time I recall a mid-week opening there):


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 14, 2022)

Better tires...are better...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> driving through the snow is half the fun (don't tell my wife I said that).  but I'm not expecting poor road conditions tomorrow evening.  Have to decide whether to take my pickup with AT all weather tires or the wife's suv with better tires.


thursday night should be ok. we have our f'ing holiday party thursday and missing it would be really bad work optics. I'm bummed. take your better tires.


----------



## jaybird (Dec 14, 2022)

Rockin Town Fare Tire right now 
Counting on road testing Friday am.
Bring it !


----------



## shadyjay (Dec 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The snow report says they're moving to Lower Snowball and Racer's Edge next for snowmaking (although also looks like someone accidentally checked off "Lower Snowball Woods" for snowmaking in the trail report instead of "Lower Snowball" ). Seems like a good plan to me to get another VH route done next. If I had to guess, I'd say after Ripcord maybe Lower Jester/Lower OG would make the most sense.



Looks like snowmaking has started on Middle Jester (as evident by the Domino Chute/Lower Jester on the report).  Also they finally moved "Lower Snowball Woods" from Lincoln Peak to Gadd Peak.  

I bet next comes Hot Shot/Waterfall and Sleeper.  Its never a good idea to run a lift line during the holiday week.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 14, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Looks like snowmaking has started on Middle Jester (as evident by the Domino Chute/Lower Jester on the report).  Also they finally moved "Lower Snowball Woods" from Lincoln Peak to Gadd Peak.
> 
> I bet next comes Hot Shot/Waterfall and Sleeper.  Its never a good idea to run a lift line during the holiday week.



Yup to all of this. Also noticed Lower Snowball Woods moving. Funny that they only moved that one though when at the very least they should also move Eden (I'd probably argue everything other than maybe Grand Stand should be moved to Gadd since that's where all the trails next to those other woods are listed).


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> Looks like snowmaking has started on Middle Jester (as evident by the Domino Chute/Lower Jester on the report).



Not indicated on the snow report, but they were making snow on Lower Organgrinder as well. Meanwhile only part of middle Jester had snowmaking on it. The first loop after Domino Chute did not have any equipment setup or snow made on it yet. Below that point it looked like the rest of Middle Jester had active snow-making.

The snow on Upper Ripcord that they made skied nicely this morning on the edges of the whales. Lower Ripcord was a bit slick though.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 15, 2022)




----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 15, 2022)

Ripcord


----------



## djd66 (Dec 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ripcord


Thanks for taking the time to share,... looks good!


----------



## Blurski (Dec 15, 2022)

Looks like we are in for some nice terrain expansion this weekend.
Does anyone know if this is the weekend all of the programs start up? I hope not, I always thought that lined up with North opening in an effort to move the North pass holders out to help make room for the programs.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 15, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Looks like we are in for some nice terrain expansion this weekend.
> Does anyone know if this is the weekend all of the programs start up? I hope not, I always thought that lined up with North opening in an effort to move the North pass holders out to help make room for the programs.


The Blazer programs run January 7th through March 26th according to the info on SB's website...


----------



## Blurski (Dec 15, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The Blazer programs run January 7th through March 26th according to the info on SB's website...


That is good news, everyone from out of town should not drive to VT this weekend, you might get stuck in VT and not make it back home for the Holiday!
Best left to Vermonters to ski in what ever snow we end up getting.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 15, 2022)

Blurski said:


> That is good news, everyone from out of town should not drive to VT this weekend, you might get stuck in VT and not make it back home for the Holiday!
> Best left to Vermonters to ski in what ever snow we end up getting.


Good advice! I agree everyone should stay away (I've been up here since the weekend...so too late for me! )


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 15, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> View attachment 55308View attachment 55309View attachment 55310View attachment 55311View attachment 55312


that actually looks sick. don't know if i've ever skied whales on upper ripcord before.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 15, 2022)

It was a bit sporty for sure...


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 15, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> that actually looks sick. don't know if i've ever skied whales on upper ripcord before.


It’s the most fun! Hopefully they don’t mow them down soon, they will be a blast tomorrow!


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2022)

Those are small whales. Cannon yesterday had 20-25 ft high whales on the front 5.


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Those are small whales. Cannon yesterday had 20-25 ft high whales on the front 5.


yeah i know. they look decent sized in the first pic though. still would be fun to send it off one of them if there was a good gap.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 15, 2022)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> It’s the most fun! Hopefully they don’t mow them down soon, they will be a blast tomorrow!


Too late. The winch cat has been working on Ripcord for about 6 hours so far at this point.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 16, 2022)

Booooooo


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 16, 2022)

Heavens gate...on friggin windhold...oy.  very
It's like a pie in the face


----------



## Hawk (Dec 16, 2022)

Not if you have skins.  LOL


----------



## TSQURD (Dec 16, 2022)

Only very light snow falling on the Summit snow stake web cam in the last 3 hours or so . 


Pro Tip - know where the web cams are when taking a pit stop:


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 16, 2022)

I'm going to get skins...all my skis have at bindings...


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 16, 2022)

lol


TSQURD said:


> Only very light snow falling on the Summit snow stake web cam in the last 3 hours or so .
> 
> 
> Pro Tip - know where the web cams are when taking a pit stop:
> ...



i know the snow stakes are very low, but it's windy and they say they've gotten six inches. i would imagine they've put the stakes in wind resistant areas though. hoping to get in some of the woods soon.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 16, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Heavens gate...on friggin windhold...oy.  very
> It's like a pie in the face



Which was pretty much well expected given the forecast for summit winds...so it really shouldn't have surprised anyone. Based on the webcams at the top, looks like the chairs are still rocking pretty good up there.



SteezyYeeter said:


> i know the snow stakes are very low, but it's windy and they say they've gotten six inches.



Was easily 6 at the base elevation an hour or so ago...pretty decent density to it at least at lower elevations, so should help start to build a good base.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 16, 2022)

Got a little sporty with a very firm base and moguls all over..They opened snowball...that was fun..


----------



## djd66 (Dec 16, 2022)

this is how you get up the gap 









						on Reels |
					

2.2M views, 8.8K likes, 29 comments, 703 shares, Facebook Reels from .




					www.facebook.com


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 17, 2022)

very busy and it didn't help that they're loading HG every other chair. but it cleared out after 1 or so. got into the woods which was nice



p.s. might want to wait a few weeks before going into any woods off of heaven's gate hahah


----------



## cdskier (Dec 17, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> very busy and it didn't help that they're loading HG every other chair. but it cleared out after 1 or so. got into the woods which was nice



They replaced drive belts on HG today and are running it at reduced capacity to "give them time to set and settle". Not sure how long that takes...


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## Hawk (Dec 18, 2022)

Funny that you mention the woods the way you did.  My friends at patrol said they had 3 people yesterday that got hurt in the woods.  All hooked something under the snow.  Just because you were lucky doesn't mean there are not dangers.  Be careful.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 18, 2022)

Need another good storm....


----------



## djd66 (Dec 18, 2022)

Does anyone know why they took chairs off the North Ridge Chair?  FWIW, looks like they are reinstalling them now.


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## teleo (Dec 18, 2022)

I do not think those were put back on from summer inspections.

FYI they take like 20% of chairs off every lift in summer to inspect them. Believe that is state law.


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## cdskier (Dec 18, 2022)

teleo said:


> I do not think those were put back on from summer inspections.
> 
> FYI they take like 20% of chairs off every lift in summer to inspect them. Believe that is state law.



Yup...from looking at the cams in the summer/fall once in a while, I'm pretty sure they were never put back on yet either after the yearly removal for inspections. Even GMX only had the chairs put back on a few weeks ago.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 18, 2022)

Anyone venture into paradise?


----------



## Blurski (Dec 18, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> very busy and it didn't help that they're loading HG every other chair. but it cleared out after 1 or so. got into the woods which was nice
> 
> View attachment 55375
> 
> p.s. might want to wait a few weeks before going into any woods off of heaven's gate hahah


They switched to loading 2 chairs in a row & skipping 1.
I thought they were going to put a spin on it, snow preservation.


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 18, 2022)

this is MRG 








						Mike Hayes on Instagram: "Low tide? Never heard of it."
					

Mike Hayes shared a post on Instagram: "Low tide? Never heard of it.". Follow their account to see 1347 posts.




					www.instagram.com
				




Also Castlerock is 100% open... i hope it stays for a few days... until friday


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Does anyone know why they took chairs off the North Ridge Chair?  FWIW, looks like they are reinstalling them now.


Off as in on the ground or on the chair parking rail structure?


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## djd66 (Dec 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Off as in on the ground or on the chair parking rail structure?


Off as on the ground


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 19, 2022)

cdskier said:


> They replaced drive belts on HG today and are running it at reduced capacity to "give them time to set and settle". Not sure how long that takes...


the heavens gate situation is ridiculous.  old baseball saying, better to get rid of a player a year too soon than a year too late.  That thing has got to go.
That said, I did get 3rd chair when it restarted saturday and chose to reward myself for the 20 minute wait with a run on an untracked paradise through knee deep powder.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 19, 2022)

Guns blowing cement all over the place today...
Sporty ride down 89...crashes everywhere...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 19, 2022)

today? its not nice out up there today?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 19, 2022)

It's really nice..just can't ski under the guns...super wet glop..
Steins was fun...still snowing...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 19, 2022)

yea so i am asking why 89 is full of wrecks if its a nice day? the roads were perfect driving home sunday...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea so i am asking why 89 is full of wrecks if its a nice day? the roads were perfect driving home sunday...


Because people drive too fast and the traffic volumes are high.


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## Smellytele (Dec 19, 2022)

Flurries/ light snow near K when driving to Rutland today


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## cdskier (Dec 19, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> the heavens gate situation is ridiculous.  old baseball saying, better to get rid of a player a year too soon than a year too late.  That thing has got to go.
> That said, I did get 3rd chair when it restarted saturday and chose to reward myself for the 20 minute wait with a run on an untracked paradise through knee deep powder.



I don't know much about lifts, but wouldn't a drive belt be a normal wear & tear item that gets replaced periodically (like in a car engine?). I don't consider that a major issue if so. And we already know they've started the permitting process to replace the lift so it isn't like management is ignoring HG's overall issues. What more do people want? You can't just decide one day to replace a lift and the next it is done...

FWIW, the lift was back to running at full capacity this morning.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 19, 2022)

How old is HG?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 19, 2022)

djd66 said:


> How old is HG?



38 years old at the moment (built in 1984)...which is not particularly old for a fixed grip lift. And it was rebuilt by SkyTrac in 2014, which means many key components are much newer. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with people that it is time for replacement. But with the age and relatively recent rebuilding it would have been hard to justify doing it much earlier.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 19, 2022)

Icy roads this morning...slipping and sliding..
Watched a van slide backwards..
Called 911 on a car that rolled down into the ravine...
People got to slow down...


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea so i am asking why 89 is full of wrecks if its a nice day? the roads were perfect driving home sunday


It was snowing lightly with a dusting on the roads, but enough to make them slippery.  The visuals of no real snow accumulation on the road gave people a false sense of security which lead them to drive way to fast.  There were 4 cars off the road between exit 12 and the Waterbury exit.  A couple of times traffic came to a stop, then you would change lanes to get by.  Once people were through they would start driving fast again and go off the road.  Sometimes you just have to wonder about people.  89 was wild today for a Monday morning with hardly any traffic…..


----------



## ducky (Dec 19, 2022)

The town plow went off the road on Roxbury Gap. Lots of black ice.


----------



## ingsy (Dec 19, 2022)

I think I read on here that Mt Ellen was opening on Wednesday.   Do you think there will be ungroomed trails / powder given the recent snow?


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 19, 2022)

ingsy said:


> I think I read on here that Mt Ellen was opening on Wednesday.   Do you think there will be ungroomed trails / powder given the recent snow?


i'm sure there will be ungroomed trails open, look at castlerock. depending on where you're willing to go you'll be able to find powder but it's still low tide so be careful.


----------



## shadyjay (Dec 20, 2022)

My guess is the only "groomed" terrain will be what has had snow made on it.  So that makes all of the blacks at Ellen ungroomed.  Don't think they've made on Lookin' Good or Cruiser either, or the I-Pod (strange as Inverness was always #1 priority back during my tenure).


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## mbedle (Dec 20, 2022)

Need help - Can anyone tell me what resort this was taken at? I believe the only options are Killington, Sugarbush, Stowe or Jay (if my memory serves me correctly). I am thinking Jay, but it was mixed in with pictures from Sugarbush and Stowe.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 20, 2022)

Jay that's definitely the Jet pod in the background.


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## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> My guess is the only "groomed" terrain will be what has had snow made on it.  So that makes all of the blacks at Ellen ungroomed.  Don't think they've made on Lookin' Good or Cruiser either, or the I-Pod (strange as Inverness was always #1 priority back during my tenure).



They did make snow on Cruiser I'm pretty sure and are currently making it on Inverness. I think Inverness was delayed this year due to a broken pipe if I recall correctly.


----------



## teleo (Dec 20, 2022)

Was over there Sun, GMVS was loading GMX and training on elbow.  Snow wasn't even off Inverness quad.  Not enough snow to set a course yet.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

Based on the afternoon snow report it looks like ME may be opening with just GMX and Summit lifts tomorrow as they mention times for both of those to open, but no mention of NRX.


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## djd66 (Dec 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Based on the afternoon snow report it looks like ME may be opening with just GMX and Summit lifts tomorrow as they mention times for both of those to open, but no mention of NRX.


There are still bunch of chairs on the ground of the NRX, hopefully they get that sorted out soon.


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## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

djd66 said:


> There are still bunch of chairs on the ground of the NRX, hopefully they get that sorted out soon.



Yea...I saw on the cam they put most of them on the rail yesterday. But not much done today so far it looks like. Really curious what the story is here with the delay on NRX...


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't know much about lifts, but wouldn't a drive belt be a normal wear & tear item that gets replaced periodically (like in a car engine?). I don't consider that a major issue if so. And we already know they've started the permitting process to replace the lift so it isn't like management is ignoring HG's overall issues. What more do people want? You can't just decide one day to replace a lift and the next it is done...
> 
> FWIW, the lift was back to running at full capacity this morning.


I'm with you, I don't understand why the lift which isnt that old and has been updated numerous times recently is so unreliable, but it is.  Last season was a freaking debacle with it going down constantly.  And saturday after a 2 foot dump and it being the only upper mtn lift open, was it for me.  as my people say, dayenu, enough.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 20, 2022)

im gonna dispute your usage of dayenu.

dayenu isn't a frustrated term meaning 'enough already', it is a grateful term meaning 'it would have been enough', as in, 'we would have been happy with even less than what we got. thank you for blessing us'

so i don't think heavens gate unreliability is a dayenu.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm with you, I don't understand why the lift which isnt that old and has been updated numerous times recently is so unreliable, but it is.  Last season was a freaking debacle with it going down constantly.  And saturday after a 2 foot dump and it being the only upper mtn lift open, was it for me.  as my people say, dayenu, enough.



I swear I somehow must have been at ME most of the days HG had issues last year. I really only recall a couple days with major problems last year (one being the day I got on HG in one of the small 10 minute windows it was running and had a phenomenal run down Paradise as a result).


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2022)

As far as I'm concerned SB has been the best place to ski recently...at least they open trails.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

On another note...Castlerock was excellent today. Only saw one other person the entire ski down CR.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 20, 2022)

Holy smokes, Howie pulling out the old testement.  
So CD, I have to ask.  How is the snow holding up?  I mean it was bare ground before the storm.  At least the ground was frozen this year.  But it's only 24" of snow.  Must be some durable type snow.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Holy smokes, Howie pulling out the old testement.
> So CD, I have to ask.  How is the snow holding up?  I mean it was bare ground before the storm.  At least the ground was frozen this year.  But it's only 24" of snow.  Must be some durable type snow.



The low traffic areas (Castlerock) seem great. Waterbars need to fill in more lower down, but there's no ice and minimal rocks/thin spots at least on CR Run to Cotillion. Today was my first day over there, so my only comparison is to the natural trails off HG/SB/VH. The higher traffic natural trails were getting thin even by Sunday/Monday. Still very skiable and fun, just have to be a bit more cautious. Granted this will all change rather significantly the end of this week unless there's a major shift in the forecast unfortunately.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2022)

This is why so far I have proffered sb over stowe...the natural trails...
Best run was Steins...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 20, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Holy smokes, Howie pulling out the old testement.
> So CD, I have to ask.  How is the snow holding up?  I mean it was bare ground before the storm.  At least the ground was frozen this year.  But it's only 24" of snow.  Must be some durable type snow.



 i havent been to bush since the snow but can tell you that the snow that stratton and killington got was perfect base building stuff. real sierra cement.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent been to bush since the snow but can tell you that the snow that stratton and killington got was perfect base building stuff. real sierra cement.


Yup, durable. Hasn’t gone above freezing so quality is excellent on natural trails. With the little extra snow yesterday and the breeze redistributing it, things have been consistent the past couple days. I enjoyed a couple runs down Steins almost as much as CR run today, just had to pay much more attention on Stein’s!


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2022)

Saw some guys on the mall...that looked sporty..


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## HowieT2 (Dec 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im gonna dispute your usage of dayenu.
> 
> dayenu isn't a frustrated term meaning 'enough already', it is a grateful term meaning 'it would have been enough', as in, 'we would have been happy with even less than what we got. thank you for blessing us'
> 
> so i don't think heavens gate unreliability is a dayenu.


Point well taken.  

the snow was dense but not cement by any means.  It was sticky at the base.

it’s unbelievable how we can’t avoid these grinch storms every year.  It’s not right.


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## TSQURD (Dec 20, 2022)

Courtesy of the Mall, but it could have happened just as easily on any of the natural trails. Actually it skied pretty well outside of the occasional rock.  Between yesterday's snow and the wind it filled in nicely. Didnt seem to be getting much traffic. Twist was nice early also.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 21, 2022)

I was ptexing after my day there...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 21, 2022)

My black crows got fucked Sunday. Got a core shot the size of a quarter and a delaminated tail


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 21, 2022)

I recently fixed delaminated tails with marine epoxy..worked pretty good..
Worth a try.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 21, 2022)

thanks, yea, just gonna bring them into a shop sometime next week while skiing on my fischers. i don't have the knowledge, tools, or space for at home ski repair


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## jaybird (Dec 21, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Jay that's definitely the Jet pod in the background.


.. that lift used to be a t-bar. Worth doing but my quads still burning.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2022)

mbedle said:


> View attachment 55426
> Need help - Can anyone tell me what resort this was taken at? I believe the only options are Killington, Sugarbush, Stowe or Jay (if my memory serves me correctly). I am thinking Jay, but it was mixed in with pictures from Sugarbush and Stowe.


Definitely Jay. In the Stateside Parking lot.


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## Blurski (Dec 21, 2022)

Ellen had a rough start on day 1 today. GMX went down on a mechanical a few minutes before it was supposed to open at 8am. You can't make this shit up, the mountain can't catch a break.  They got it sorted out at about 8:55am and the wait was worth it.  
I will chalk it up to bad luck.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2022)

Blurski said:


> Ellen had a rough start on day 1 today. GMX went down on a mechanical a few minutes before it was supposed to open at 8am. You can't make this shit up, the mountain can't catch a break.  They got it sorted out at about 8:55am and the wait was worth it.
> I will chalk it up to bad luck.



I already heard of at least 1 other day this season that GMX had issues (GMVS I guess was using it at the time). I was going to go to ME this morning (was planning to get there around 9 and sure glad I didn't wake up early to be there at 8), but at 8:30 when I checked the webcam before leaving my condo and saw that GMX still wasn't loading, I changed my plans and decided to just stay at LP today. I didn't feel like taking a chance on driving to ME to have no lifts (NRX not being open already had me a bit disappointed even before the GMX issue).

I know there's a lot of concern about the HG lift at LP. Honestly I'm more concerned about the overall lift infrastructure health at ME than I am about HG. HG is one lift that serves only a handful of trails (granted they are good trails...but still at least there's a lot of other terrain to ski at LP without HG)...but ME seems to have had a bit too many issues with both GMX and NRX the past several years. To me those lifts are more critical than HG. I love ME and hope things run smoothly from here on out this season and like you said hope this was just bad luck today...


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## Newpylong (Dec 21, 2022)

I will point out that no amount of preparation ensures for 100% smooth sailing under the type of environments that these lifts are operating in (despite being designed for). So you can hope and be concerned all you want, but sometimes a lift's day is just up... Sometimes it's multiple times.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2022)

FWIW GMX is older than it may appear. I rode it as a new lift.....in 2002. That is 20 years ago.

The other lifts are now 32 years old, except for the new Sunny D.


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## Lotso (Dec 21, 2022)

GMX and Summit had issues for the past week. Hopefully they have sorted them out. NRX on the other hand...


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW GMX is older than it may appear. I rode it as a new lift.....in 2002. That is 20 years ago.
> 
> The other lifts are now 32 years old, except for the new Sunny D.



A 20 year lift should still have plenty of life left in theory. I don't know what kind of issues they've had this year so far but hopefully it is just simple random stuff.

NRX on the other hand is 32 years old, was relocated, and is now half Poma/half Dopp...at least when NRX is running that plus Inverness is all you need if GMX is down. But when both NRX and GMX is down, the majority of the mountain is basically down. I think at the moment my biggest issue is the lack of any communication. There haven't been any meaningful blog posts on Sugarbush's website about mountain ops since the one when they first opened explaining why they went with GH first. Is there an issue with NRX? Or is it fine and they just chose not to open it yet for some other reason?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2022)

Friggin empty today..


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## ducky (Dec 22, 2022)

From the Waitsfield Town Clerk:

Starting at approximately midnight on Friday, December 23, running into the day on Saturday, there will be an extreme weather event consisting of winds of over 60 miles an hour which will cause limb damage to trees and knocking out electrical service. Also, snow then rain will cause the Mad River and its tributaries to rise significantly, but flooding is not expected. Expect wild temperature swings and flash freezing of road surfaces. Interstates may be closed due to high-profile vehicles being blown over. Travel will be affected.

The National Weather Service's degree of confidence is high.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 22, 2022)

Fun morning on the 8:00 AM to 11:00 AM shift at  Mt Ellen today.  Happy that I hit the natural snow trails ahead of the weather mess that's on the way.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2022)

I had...a varied experience on the runs they blew on...Murphys was fine..lower organ grinder...well........


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I had...a varied experience on the runs they blew on...Murphys was fine..lower organ grinder...well........


when were you on lower organ grinder?
I find the light in the afternoon to be funky there such that I have hard time making out the snow surface.


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## cdskier (Dec 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I had...a varied experience on the runs they blew on...Murphys was fine..lower organ grinder...well........





HowieT2 said:


> when were you on lower organ grinder?
> I find the light in the afternoon to be funky there such that I have hard time making out the snow surface.



I don't think it would matter what time of day it was at the moment. I pretty much skied the same route yesterday that slug mentioned (Murphy's to Lower OG). The whales on Lower OG needed ice skates to properly ski them. They were solid and I tried both sides of the trail to see if it mattered which side of the whale you skied. Murphy's on the other hand was great (although I stayed skier's right so mostly natural with a bit of blowover from the guns).


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2022)

At least the whales will protect the snow so they have something to roll out sunday..


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## teleo (Dec 22, 2022)

Whales all over the place, easy rider, sleeper, lower snowball, murphys, lower grinder.  Obviously intentional with the incoming storm. Best snow was north lynx if u were willing to hike. Snowing now.  So sad what is about to happen.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

Its...HOWLING...outside...


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## Lotso (Dec 23, 2022)

Shut it down, John. Preserve snow, keep people safe. Winds may make the decision for you but silly to even try today. Driving this evening will be interesting when the freezer door is opened...stay safe, folks


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2022)

Lotso said:


> Shut it down, John. Preserve snow, keep people safe. Winds may make the decision for you but silly to even try today. Driving this evening will be interesting when the freezer door is opened...stay safe, folks



Agreed. With the wind forecasts and sub-par conditions, why bother even trying today? Looks like at the moment all base lifts are on hold due to "power surges". I'd just make the decision to shut it completely down at this point. It isn't going to get better as the day goes on...


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 23, 2022)

did the castlerock hike 4 times yesterday. i had only done it 2 or 3 times before over the years and it wasn't as long as i thought it would be. so i skied all four trails and rumble was definitely the best. probably 1.5-1.75 hours hiking and a good 1 hour skiing (on castlerock) so i'd say that's a pretty good ratio. really glad i was able to get there before the rain.


----------



## Lotso (Dec 23, 2022)

They just closed all but Bravo. Good move.


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## Hawk (Dec 23, 2022)

There is like 10 people skiing.  It raining pretty good.  Why run all the lifts


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## Hawk (Dec 23, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> did the castlerock hike 4 times yesterday. i had only done it 2 or 3 times before over the years and it wasn't as long as i thought it would be. so i skied all four trails and rumble was definitely the best. probably 1.5-1.75 hours hiking and a good 1 hour skiing (on castlerock) so i'd say that's a pretty good ratio. really glad i was able to get there before theIt


You must be pretty slow hiking.  ;-)


----------



## urungus (Dec 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> You must be pretty slow hiking.  ;-)


90 Minutes / 4 = 22.5 minutes per hike, isn’t that about average ?   Took me close to an hour last year for a single trip, as I am old and out of shape - now that’s a slow hike.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

I have to try this sometime...


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2022)

urungus said:


> 90 Minutes / 4 = 22.5 minutes per hike, isn’t that about average ?   Took me close to an hour last year for a single trip, as I am old and out of shape - now that’s a slow hike.



22.5 seems pretty good to me. I know some people say they do it in 15...but I'm definitely not in good enough shape to do that.

Took me about 35-40 minutes this past week...but I also stop to take pictures. And as I was at the church my cousin started texting me, so I was texting back and forth with him for a bit. Not sure what it would take if I didn't stop (I'd guess in the 20-25 range). But it is too beautiful along the way usually for me to not stop and get out my camera.


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> You must be pretty slow hiking.  ;-)


haha maybe. 20-25 minutes a hike. fine pace for me.


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## NYDB (Dec 23, 2022)

why is everyone in such a rush?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

Good question


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## WWF-VT (Dec 23, 2022)

Snowing HARD with whipping winds for the last hour+


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2022)

NYDB said:


> why is everyone in such a rush?



That's one reason I only like to make the hike midweek and not on a weekend. Too many people in a rush on a weekend.


----------



## teleo (Dec 23, 2022)

Same here.  Skinned north lynx yesterday instead.  Had to get good snow before it got trashed today.  Nice peaceful skin.  No one around except a patroller up top.  And probably less tracks down.

Snowing sideways now with the wind.


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## ducky (Dec 24, 2022)

62 yo me and my 66 yo bud do it in 17 min. Walk all the way, no getting in and out but do boot ski the slopes. If it were up to us, the lift would never spin.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 24, 2022)

Just checked the report to see how they fared.

The good - 78 trails open today. Nice

The bad - heavens gate on mechanical hold


----------



## Lotso (Dec 24, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> The bad - heavens gate on mechanical hold


Shocker...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 24, 2022)

Prolly frozen...


----------



## cdskier (Dec 24, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Just checked the report to see how they fared.
> 
> The good - 78 trails open today. Nice
> 
> The bad - heavens gate on mechanical hold



You must have caught it at just the right time when you checked. Looking at the webcam, looks like it was maybe closed only a few minutes.

As for the number of trails open...open is one thing, but whether they are enjoyable to ski is another. I'm curious what they're actually like.


----------



## djd66 (Dec 24, 2022)

I’m not at the mountain, but from looking at my webcams at my house - it seems like it was not a total loss and there is still plenty of natural snow on the ground. I hope that is the case and we get a refresh soon!


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## teleo (Dec 24, 2022)

Dodged a bullet.  Probably a net gain.  But we have the traditional eastern base now.  Much better than I expected.  2cnd groom will help.  Nats are unforgiving wind packed.  But were fun once they got enough traffic.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 24, 2022)

Seems vt did well on the backside. Better than further east. Bolton called it a pow day. I’ll hit bolton or sugarbush on my way home from qc on nye


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 24, 2022)

Hitting bolton for the first time tomorrow..
Not expecting much..just some noodling around with my wife..
Heard it was pretty much empty today..


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 24, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I’m not at the mountain, but from looking at my webcams at my house - it seems like it was not a total loss and there is still plenty of natural snow on the ground. I hope that is the case and we get a refresh soon!


When is this refresh coming? That is the question and only question.


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## djd66 (Dec 24, 2022)

Reading the reports from Buffalo, imagine if the bush somehow had those lake effect snows?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 24, 2022)

Don't look at next weekend......


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## Lotso (Dec 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Don't look at next weekend......


Too late...just did. Wow...


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2022)

Told ya...


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 25, 2022)

Too early to tell what will happen next weekend.  7 days is a lifetime in NE weather.  Happy Holidays to all…..


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2022)

All I know is I'm finding powder stashes at Bolton Valley today!


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## Hawk (Dec 26, 2022)

Today was a good day.  No one here.  I skied all around and found lots to ski.  It was not as scrapy or icy as I expected and if you skied in the right places, the wind blew the little powder we got into pockets.  Middle earth was the best run.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2022)

Going tomorrow....maybe I'll climb up to CR..
Never did it..


----------



## STREETSKIER (Dec 27, 2022)

Must be epic with the two feet we got 
Right Johnny b


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## drjeff (Dec 27, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Too early to tell what will happen next weekend.  7 days is a lifetime in NE weather.  Happy Holidays to all…..


Unfortunately this season so far, it seems like as the 7 days out potential systems get closer, the trend has been for them to get worse, not more favorable.....


----------



## Castlerockrisk (Dec 27, 2022)

Does anyone have an update on when northridge will fire up


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2022)

Snowing and blowin today...a bit crowded but not too bad...


----------



## awalker (Dec 27, 2022)

Castlerockrisk said:


> Does anyone have an update on when northridge will fire up


I wonder what the future is for this lift. How much longer can it reliably run for? It seems to have had a checkered past, detachables seem to have shorter life spans than fixed grip lifts, and many other detachable lifts of its vintage are being replaced. Will Alterra invest the capital to replace it, or will they focus their $ on the infrastructure at Lincoln Peak (Heaven’s Gate and Bravo) and simply phase out North Ridge? It’ll be a real loss for skiers If so given the vertical and terrain that it covers.


----------



## Keelhauled (Dec 27, 2022)

Ellen skis really badly without North Ridge, it pretty much makes or breaks the mountain.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 27, 2022)

awalker said:


> I wonder what the future is for this lift. How much longer can it reliably run for? It seems to have had a checkered past, detachables seem to have shorter life spans than fixed grip lifts, and many other detachable lifts of its vintage are being replaced. Will Alterra invest the capital to replace it, or will they focus their $ on the infrastructure at Lincoln Peak (Heaven’s Gate and Bravo) and simply phase out North Ridge? It’ll be a real loss for skiers If so given the vertical and terrain that it covers.



There were rumors last year that they were planning to replace NRX in the relatively near term. Not sure if those were true or not though. To me that lift can't simply be eliminated and needs to be replaced at some point (and I think the vast majority of Sugarbush skiers would agree with that assessment). Eliminating it removes a rather substantial amount of uphill capacity at ME and also significantly alters the way the mountain is skied. To me, NRX is THE main lift at ME. It allows you to access the vast majority of terrain off 1 single lift. I can enjoy lapping NRX all day. I can't say the same for either GMX or Summit.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> Ellen skis really badly without North Ridge, it pretty much makes or breaks the mountain.


So...maybe not go there tomorrow ?
Need some variety...
Haven't skied there much...
Without this lift I imagine it can get pretty crowded on the other 2


----------



## WWF-VT (Dec 27, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...maybe not go there tomorrow ?
> Need some variety...
> Haven't skied there much...
> Without this lift I imagine it can get pretty crowded on the other 2


I skied Mt Ellen this afternoon.   Ski on lifts and empty trails.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2022)

Busy on Lincoln today...
I'll give it a try tomorrow..maybe we get lucky and get a few inches..


----------



## cdskier (Dec 27, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Busy on Lincoln today...
> I'll give it a try tomorrow..maybe we get lucky and get a few inches..



Did you end up making the hike to Castlerock today?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2022)

Nope...looks like a long one...maybe with someone...my lungs took some damage building the new world trade center...can't hike like I used to.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 28, 2022)

It’s a 15 minute hike with barely any uphill sections. It’s not strenuous


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2022)

It's not 15 minutes unless you hike very fast and do not stop.  It's 20-25 minutes if you take it slow and steady with short rests at the top of the 2 uphill sections.  By the way the vertical rise on the hike is about 300 feet between the couple of ups so it is uphill.  Just being accurate.


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## Hawk (Dec 28, 2022)

The blackout is doing a nice job at keeping the crowds down.  It is really not that bad.  I waited maybe 5 minutes at Bravo once or twice.  No line at Valley house or Heavens gate all day.  Demo-ing skis yesterday and today.  Blizzard Ruslter 10's, Nortica 104 Inforcers and the Black Crow Artis.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 28, 2022)

urungus said:


> 90 Minutes / 4 = 22.5 minutes per hike, isn’t that about average ?   Took me close to an hour last year for a single trip, as I am old and out of shape - now that’s a slow hike.


I was kidding.  Just busting on him.  That is the average.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 28, 2022)

Hawk said:


> It's not 15 minutes unless you hike very fast and do not stop.  It's 20-25 minutes if you take it slow and steady with short rests at the top of the 2 uphill sections.  By the way the vertical rise on the hike is about 300 feet between the couple of ups so it is uphill.  Just being accurate.


Fair. But we can agree as to “not strenuous”, yes? Especially compared to literally any hike-to out west. Assuming slug has dabbled at least a little in his travels.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Fair. But we can agree as to “not strenuous”, yes? Especially compared to literally any hike-to out west. Assuming slug has dabbled at least a little in his travels.


If you get a little speed at top of Paradise and no one on trail, saves a 100 or so steps, then, when hiking with groups of people you get into a rhythm.

15 mins at best, I avg 20-25 mins but if crowded - 20 or more on trail, taking off and placing on boards/skis requires more time.

Its not a race, and the Church views are worth a stop. Sure beats 12,000' oxygen hike out west. 

Sounds like the trails are well-skied in over there.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 28, 2022)

As a regular ski tourer at high elevation over the years that doesn’t look hard at all. 

It’s downright chill honestly.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 28, 2022)

Hawk said:


> The blackout is doing a nice job at keeping the crowds down.  It is really not that bad.  I waited maybe 5 minutes at Bravo once or twice.  No line at Valley house or Heavens gate all day.  Demo-ing skis yesterday and today.  Blizzard Ruslter 10's, Nortica 104 Inforcers and the Black Crow Artis.


I love my rustlers (11s).


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

Just hiked out of lower fis at Ellen..so I imagine the hike to CR is no big deal.
Finding some good natural lines here..
I guess they really mean it when they say...long runout...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Fair. But we can agree as to “not strenuous”, yes? Especially compared to literally any hike-to out west. Assuming slug has dabbled at least a little in his travels.


I used to climb baldy at Alta...not recently though...that was killer...


----------



## Hawk (Dec 28, 2022)

Comparing this to hiking out west at elevation is not the conversation.  Sounds like Mr. Slug does not hike a lot lately.  I do the castlerock hike quite a bit and when I did it in 15 minutes it was basically as fast as you can hike, short of a jog.  I was in zone 4 for most of that and a sweaty mess at the top.  The question/conversation is can he do it.  The anwswer is yes he will be fine.  All you younger types have to cut us old guys some slack.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

Need to hike more...used to a lot all year.
Now that I live up here I'm sure I'll be doing it more.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

Ellen...what a difference from Lincoln. I was able to bounce around every natural slope they have...conditions are great...and empty.
I'm kerploopt...


----------



## shadyjay (Dec 28, 2022)

I really miss my days at Mt Ellen... almost always a ghost town.  It seems even moreso with NRX down still... any word there?


----------



## machski (Dec 28, 2022)

Slug, was that the NRX chairless?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2022)

Love North. I’m skiing at Burke tomorrow.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2022)

machski said:


> Slug, was that the NRX chairless?


Looks like Slide Brook judging by the towers and lifting frames (Doppelmayr). NRX is Poma.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

That's slidebrook..lower fis crosses under it.
Only lifts running are green and summit.


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## cdskier (Dec 28, 2022)

machski said:


> Slug, was that the NRX chairless?



I see chairs in the photo...that's definitely Slidebrook though taken from Lower FIS where Slidebrook crosses it. In addition to what TB said, there's also the sign on the tower in the photo mentioning the lift may run in reverse which I've only seen on Slidebrook and not on NRX.


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## shadyjay (Dec 28, 2022)

IIRC from my lifty days... all the 1995-era Doppelmayer detaches can run in reverse.  There's a reverse switch in the terminal.  If a lift were to run in reverse, ski patrol would have to ski the line and warn everyone.  Since you can't realistically ski the line of Slide Brook end to end, the signs make sense and probably why they're at every other tower or so on that lift.  I have had to run a lift in reverse, under direction of lift maintenance, when the lift was closed... I believe we were doing spacing following an icing event.  

If you're on a fixed-grip and it moves backwards... I'd worry!


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## Naturalsnow (Dec 29, 2022)

The Flyer at Jay was running in reverse yesterday - it is not yet open for the season and had only a few chairs on the line, so they must have been doing some testing or some such.  Was quite an odd sight to behold!


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## doublediamond (Dec 29, 2022)

All Doppelmayr detachables can run in reverse. This can be done to get chairs/cabins on/off the line. This can be done to fix spacing issues. And most notably this is [supposed] to be done when the grip position sensor trips. By Doppelmayr’s checklist you are to run the lift back so it gets back in the terminal, unload the passengers on the offending chair/cabin, and retry. If it still still trips, you are to run it backwards again, and take off the offending chair/cabin. Mount-Saint-Anne failed to do this. In that situation a mechanic was dispatched to visually check the cabin and cleared the lift to restart without sending it back to the grip position detector in the terminal. This blatant failure of safety rules and numerous violations led the province to shut them down.

It’s code for that sight to be on the lift at the beginning saying “This lift may run in reverse” for any lift that has the ability to run in reverse.

Pomas don’t do that so you won’t see a sign on them.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> All Doppelmayr detachables can run in reverse. This can be done to get chairs/cabins on/off the line. This can be done to fix spacing issues. And most notably this is [supposed] to be done when the grip position sensor trips. By Doppelmayr’s checklist you are to run the lift back so it gets back in the terminal, unload the passengers on the offending chair/cabin, and retry. If it still still trips, you are to run it backwards again, and take off the offending chair/cabin. Mount-Saint-Anne failed to do this. In that situation a mechanic was dispatched to visually check the cabin and cleared the lift to restart without sending it back to the grip position detector in the terminal. This blatant failure of safety rules and numerous violations led the province to shut them down.
> 
> It’s code for that sight to be on the lift at the beginning saying “This lift may run in reverse” for any lift that has the ability to run in reverse.
> 
> Pomas don’t do that so you won’t see a sign on them.


Except Jay’s Flyer is a Leitner. Not Poma-Leitner, not Doppelmayr. Straight Leitner.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 29, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> All Doppelmayr detachables can run in reverse.





doublediamond said:


> It’s code for that sight to be on the lift at the beginning saying “This lift may run in reverse” for any lift that has the ability to run in reverse.


Super Bravo and Gate House are both Dopp detachables...yet I've never seen that sign on either one.


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## Howitzer (Dec 29, 2022)

Has anyone from Sugarbush addressed the Northridge situation? Crickets on the snow report and from what I've seen here. Thanks


----------



## cdskier (Dec 29, 2022)

Howitzer said:


> Has anyone from Sugarbush addressed the Northridge situation? Crickets on the snow report and from what I've seen here. Thanks


Not that I've seen. It has now been about 1.5 months since the last Mountain Ops related update from anyone at SB...


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## Blurski (Dec 29, 2022)

shadyjay said:


> IIRC from my lifty days... all the 1995-era Doppelmayer detaches can run in reverse.  There's a reverse switch in the terminal.  If a lift were to run in reverse, ski patrol would have to ski the line and warn everyone.  Since you can't realistically ski the line of Slide Brook end to end, the signs make sense and probably why they're at every other tower or so on that lift.  I have had to run a lift in reverse, under direction of lift maintenance, when the lift was closed... I believe we were doing spacing following an icing event.
> 
> If you're on a fixed-grip and it moves backwards... I'd worry!


I was on GH many years ago, lift was was stopped everyone was off, lift came back on line after about 6 chairs loaded cazy hale storm blew, ran the lift backwards to get the six chairs off.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 29, 2022)

Hawk-demo report?


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 29, 2022)

Howitzer said:


> Has anyone from Sugarbush addressed the Northridge situation? Crickets on the snow report and from what I've seen here. Thanks


Not directly from Sugarbush but one of the comments from someone on Instagram (I know not the most reliable news source) said they are now waiting on State inspection...wondering what the timeline for that is if that is the case..


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Super Bravo and Gate House are both Dopp detachables...yet I've never seen that sign on either one.


ASC put them up when they were installed.


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## Blurski (Dec 29, 2022)

SkiTheEast said:


> Not directly from Sugarbush but one of the comments from someone on Instagram (I know not the most reliable news source) said they are now waiting on State inspection...wondering what the timeline for that is if that is the case
> 
> 
> SkiTheEast said:
> ...


----------



## Hawk (Dec 29, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> Hawk-demo report?


Howie, Nortica 104 Enforcers.   Rocket ships.  Very fast ski.  it has some metal under foot so it stables out a lot of the chop.  it can trun also.  not that bad in the bumps but you have to stay on top.  No back seat at all or it will punish you.  I like this ski.  Very fun.

Rustler 10's, turns well - I liked it in the bumps.  Not as much on fast terrain as the Enforcers.  good alround ski.  I liked it but I don't think I will choose that one.

Black Crow Artis was not availible.  Maybe next week.

I still like my Salomon QST 106's the best.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 29, 2022)

Northridge and North Linx.  We need a report on both.  Birch is blown and would be good skiing.  What's the story on that lift also?  Next week when the masses are not blacked out will be a good indicator of what it will be like this year.  They better have all lifts up and ready to go or it's going to be a mess.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 29, 2022)

Lots of work happening on North Ridge Express the past few days...overheard that inspection will be any day now


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Northridge and North Linx.  We need a report on both.  Birch is blown and would be good skiing.  What's the story on that lift also?  Next week when the masses are not blacked out will be a good indicator of what it will be like this year.  They better have all lifts up and ready to go or it's going to be a mess.



My guess with North Lynx is they're letting Birch drain before grooming and don't want to open the lift with only ungroomed terrain accessible during a holiday period.



WWF-VT said:


> Lots of work happening on North Ridge Express the past few days...overheard that inspection will be any day now



Yea...every time I take a peak at the cam it seems the lift mechanics are over there doing stuff the past few days. Still curious what happened during the off-season that it wasn't ready to go for opening day at ME... Was there an actual issue with the lift itself? Or did we have staffing issues again in the lift maintenance department?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 29, 2022)

I saw it running for a while yesterday...it lives...


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## teleo (Dec 29, 2022)

I heard NRX wasn't spacing properly.  Tried to remove offending chairs but didn't help.  Not sure who you call for a frakenstien chair.


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## teleo (Dec 29, 2022)

Oh and sunny Q isn't running either.  Any word on that?  Been silence from the mtn on everything.


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2022)

teleo said:


> Oh and sunny Q isn't running either.  Any word on that?  Been silence from the mtn on everything.



Is there a need for it at the moment with the terrain park not yet open? That could be why they aren't running it. But in general, the silence is weird...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Is there a need for it at the moment with the terrain park not yet open? That could be why they aren't running it. But in general, the silence is weird...


Do they have the same PR person? Same GM?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2022)

Behind the scenes of snowmaking at Sugarbush:









						Snow problem or no problem? Resorts concerned as ski season heats up
					

Experts say Vermont's winters have warmed, a concerning trend for one of the state's keystone industries-- skiing. Our Kevin Gaiss found out how resorts are weathering the warming climate.




					www.wcax.com


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## cdskier (Dec 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Do they have the same PR person? Same GM?



As far as I know, nothing has changed with either of those positions.


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## teleo (Dec 30, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Is there a need for it at the moment with the terrain park not yet open? That could be why they aren't running it. But in general, the silence is weird...


Beginner lessons really have no where to go.  Also, VT Adaptive has moved many of thier lessons to LP.  Is that enough to run it without the park built out?  Not sure.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 30, 2022)

North lynx opens tomorrow....


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## SkiTheEast (Dec 30, 2022)

North ridge opening tomorrow


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 30, 2022)

How is the natural holding up?

I didn’t even bother venturing off trail at Tremblant today. Just ripped groomers for 3 hours and called it.


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## MadPadraic (Dec 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> How is the natural holding up?
> 
> I didn’t even bother venturing off trail at Tremblant today. Just ripped groomers for 3 hours and called it.


Lower stuff is mostly eaten. Heavy dirt patches on Birdland, Moonshine and Domino. Paradise is closed. I didn't go to CR, so no report there.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 30, 2022)

Ellen...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 30, 2022)

Thanks


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 30, 2022)

The groomers were covered though


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## crank (Dec 31, 2022)

We've been enjoying the nat. snow trails all week but stayed off them yesterday.  On teh other hand they groomed out Murphy's and it was skiing really nice.  North Lynx and North Ridge today.

Skiing was surprisingly good Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.  We went xc at Blueberry Lake trails in Warren Thursday morning.  Trails were in great shape there but were already getting a little sticky on sunny spots by late morning when we hit Sugarbush in teh afternoon we were surprised that it was still pretty cold with good snow up high.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

Al those crazy whales they blew are paying off today..pretty damn good out there!
Killer fog decending...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Al those crazy whales they blew are paying off today..pretty damn good out there!
> Killer fog decending...
> View attachment 55714View attachment 55715View attachment 55716


No Stein's anytime soon....


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

That's for sure..but we're having a hoot today...


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## Hawk (Dec 31, 2022)

Day 6 in a row in the books.  My legs are smoked.  Went to north because the Northridge is up and running.  Good skiing, soft and spring like.  Most natural trails are closed now with the exception of looking good.  

Think we are headed over to the Lincoln base after the fireworks and party to rock the new year in with the detonators.  Hope 23 is a snow filled and glorius year.  Hapy new years to everybody.


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## scharny (Dec 31, 2022)

Since this is the Sugarbush thread, anyone know if “$30 Thursdays” is still a thing, or is that done and gone?


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## crank (Dec 31, 2022)

We skied  Organ Grinder and Ripcord, which was the better or the 2 and then a couple of runs off North Lynx which was good snow but lots of sliders sliding around so we bussed over to Mt Ellen for lunch and then skied off the Northridge chair until it started a steady light r###.  No people, dense cloud cover and nicely groomed spring snow made for a fun, easy going afternoon.

Don't know anyone here but we are going to Rumbles for dinner and then hanging out probably at Castlerock for live music as well.


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## shadyjay (Dec 31, 2022)

scharny said:


> Since this is the Sugarbush thread, anyone know if “$30 Thursdays” is still a thing, or is that done and gone?


Its now $49 Thursdays and it starts 1/5.  Last year it was $40.83 Thursdays.  I still miss the holiday specials of yesteryear, even moreso that I have to pay for tickets now ($5.50 Christmas / $14 Valentines Day / $17 St Patty's / $30 Thursdays).


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## crank (Jan 1, 2023)

Gatehouse lost power around 11:30 last night and shut down the Castlerock Pub.  Was a fun time.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2023)

Happy new year?


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## Hawk (Jan 1, 2023)

That was crazy.  The Detonators were rockin and then Boom! no power.  Power was out all night not just in the Gate house but all of south village, Snow creek and the other buildings except Claybrook which appeared to have generator backup or was no a different feed.  Delayed start today while they shake out any issues.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 1, 2023)

Ouch that’s rough


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## Lotso (Jan 1, 2023)

Looks like NRX will start up. Lift ops working on ramp and corral


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## Hawk (Jan 1, 2023)

There are no issues reported at Mt Ellen.  Usual start times for all lifts.  Northridge was working fine yesterday so I assume it will be fine today.   Maybe.  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2023)

crank said:


> Gatehouse lost power around 11:30 last night and shut down the Castlerock Pub.  Was a fun time.


That’s weird.


----------



## ducky (Jan 1, 2023)

Not a terrible day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2023)

crank said:


> Gatehouse lost power around 11:30 last night and shut down the Castlerock Pub.  Was a fun time.


*"Gee, that's too bad. It would suck if, say, a competitor up the road pulled the plug on your little party. STAY EPIC MY FRIENDS!"*


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2023)

Could it be....a gremlin???


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 2, 2023)

Happy new year
may it be filled with a lot of light fluffy powder and no freakin’ r@#$%^n


----------



## Lotso (Jan 2, 2023)

thetrailboss said:


> *"Gee, that's too bad. It would suck if, say, a competitor up the road pulled the plug on your little party. STAY EPIC MY FRIENDS!"*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Borg awakens. If that picture doesn't sum up the corporate skiing world, I am not sure what does...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 2, 2023)

Schnoozeling at SB now..better than rain..top fogged in but conditions are interesting...the groomers have about 2 to 3 inches of ground up...granular...some moguls forming up.
Trying out the new Head kore 105s...pretty good in the crud.


----------



## ducky (Jan 4, 2023)

Whatta crap forecast.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2023)

Yup...fucking depressing..


----------



## WinS (Jan 4, 2023)

Keep the faith. Remember the winter of the Valentine‘s Day,  President’s weekend and Easter storms in late April. Winter didn’t start that year until February as I recall. Despite the ups and downs I have enjoyed my first 34 days. We’ll see what the next few days bring. Hopefully cool enough to get the Snowmakers working again.


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## mister moose (Jan 5, 2023)

WinS said:


> Keep the faith. Remember the winter of the Valentine‘s Day,  President’s weekend and Easter storms in late April. Winter didn’t start that year until February as I recall. Despite the ups and downs I have enjoyed my first 34 days. We’ll see what the next few days bring. Hopefully cool enough to get the Snowmakers working again.


Awesome run that was.  I think it snowed St Pattys Day as well that year.  On the less inspiring days I view it sometimes as going to the gym.  Gets me in shape to ski the good days a little better.


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2023)

mister moose said:


> Awesome run that was.  I think it snowed St Pattys Day as well that year.  On the less inspiring days I view it sometimes as going to the gym.  Gets me in shape to ski the good days a little better.


It sure did...that was back when I only visited SB once a year for a long weekend and St Patty's happened to be the weekend I was there that year. I remember it very vividly!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

Groomers are ok..but going to take a lot to get the good stuff going again...
I'll be there tomorrow though...day 22


----------



## WinS (Jan 5, 2023)

mister moose said:


> Awesome run that was.  I think it snowed St Pattys Day as well that year.  On the less inspiring days I view it sometimes as going to the gym.  Gets me in shape to ski the good days a little better.


Yes, you are correct. The year of the Holiday storms. Wasn’t that the spring when the Killington Refugees came to Sugarbush.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2023)

mister moose said:


> Awesome run that was.  I think it snowed St Pattys Day as well that year.  On the less inspiring days I view it sometimes as going to the gym.  Gets me in shape to ski the good days a little better.



i've made the same adjustment in order to appreciate the bad days more. those days i set vertical footage goals, speed goals, and form goals. i'll try to get very low in my carves. i'll try to basically ski a narrow slalom course the width of one groomer, pretending that there are vertical drop offs on either side of my track. try to ski every narrow line down every trail so that i color in the whole run on the ski tracks app. stuff like that to keep it spicy.

as much as i rag on racer kids (and i stand by them being the worst contingent at any given mountain), i think i would have been quite good at it, had i not grown up on an island at sea level


----------



## Hawk (Jan 5, 2023)

That year I spent mostly off trail and in all kinds of obsure places.  I learned about runs like Sugar Sugar and Nowhere.  You could ski anywhere and we tested the boundries of that ending up in all kinds of strange places.  A good year indeed.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 5, 2023)

WinS said:


> Yes, you are correct. The year of the Holiday storms. Wasn’t that the spring when the Killington Refugees came to Sugarbush.


could be, but I think that was either the next season or the one after that.  We have friends who had/have a place at kton who were amongst those refugees and I'm pretty sure it was either 07/08 or 08/09.  but tbh since the pandemic my memories of the before times is pretty shaky.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 5, 2023)

Hawk said:


> That year I spent mostly off trail and in all kinds of obsure places.  I learned about runs like Sugar Sugar and Nowhere.  You could ski anywhere and we tested the boundries of that ending up in all kinds of strange places.  A good year indeed.


and there's still one place we need to go to.


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## djd66 (Jan 5, 2023)

Next Year in Jerusalem!


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## skiur (Jan 5, 2023)

WinS said:


> Yes, you are correct. The year of the Holiday storms. Wasn’t that the spring when the Killington Refugees came to Sugarbu





WinS said:


> Yes, you are correct. The year of the Holiday storms. Wasn’t that the spring when the Killington Refugees came to Sugarbush.



Moose would know, he's the one that made the tee shirts!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

I was at Stowe skiing with people from Alta..they said we had way more snow than them...


----------



## tumbler (Jan 5, 2023)

Let us know how it is tomorrow


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Jan 5, 2023)

Hawk said:


> That year I spent mostly off trail and in all kinds of obsure places.  I learned about runs like Sugar Sugar and Nowhere.  You could ski anywhere and we tested the boundries of that ending up in all kinds of strange places.  A good year indeed.


even just the mention of a name  i might have an idea about where sugar sugar is but i definitely want to explore more. im not going out of bounds alone though and it's pretty rare when i can make that happen.


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## mister moose (Jan 5, 2023)

Valentine's storm was 2007, Refugee Shirt Day was April 26, 2008.  Killington had closed already.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

Looking at the radar now..lot of snow should be falling now thru tomorrow...
Poured at my house for a while..


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2023)

Kingslug20 said:


> Looking at the radar now..lot of snow should be falling now thru tomorrow...
> Poured at my house for a while..


Boy I sure hope so. The last two weeks have been absolutely terrible.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2023)

mister moose said:


> Valentine's storm was 2007, Refugee Shirt Day was April 26, 2008.  Killington had closed already.
> 
> View attachment 55828


A Killington Refugee shirt. That is a blast from the past!


----------



## skiur (Friday at 8:33 AM)

thetrailboss said:


> A Killington Refugee shirt. That is a blast from the past!


A blast?  Not at all, those nyburg years are years I would like to forget!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Friday at 8:44 AM)

White material falling from the sky now...that is all...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Friday at 8:52 AM)

NH and western maine look best positioned for this minor event. i am skiing loon tomorrow. they seem to have a lot open with good solid snowmaking base. 1" down, another 2" tonight. east coast pow day tmrw baby


----------



## thetrailboss (Friday at 9:13 AM)

skiur said:


> A blast?  Not at all, those nyburg years are years I would like to forget!


I did not mean it in a bad way. I was just using it as a rhyme. Trust me, unfortunately I’ve had to tolerate POWDR and it’s stupidity.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Friday at 9:59 AM)




----------



## Hawk (Friday at 10:14 AM)

So what is the skiing like?  did it lock up tight or is it OK .  Just setting my expectations becasue that is all we can do.


----------



## Smellytele (Friday at 10:56 AM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> NH and western maine look best positioned for this minor event. i am skiing loon tomorrow. they seem to have a lot open with good solid snowmaking base. 1" down, another 2" tonight. east coast pow day tmrw baby


At Wildcat today. Lightly snowing. Barely collecting on the ground. 2 1/2 ways down from the top and no snowmaking taking place anywhere on the mountain.


----------



## Hawk (Friday at 10:59 AM)

But I am not sking at Waldcat. Sugarbush reports please.


----------



## thetrailboss (Friday at 11:20 AM)

Smellytele said:


> At Wildcat today. Lightly snowing. Barely collecting on the ground. 2 1/2 ways down from the top and no snowmaking taking place anywhere on the mountain.


I bet that the wetbulb is too high. It is foggy and raining/misting here in the NEK.


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## Kingslug20 (Friday at 2:24 PM)

Spring skiing...wet snow...only ice was on organ..I did not partake but watched some brave souls slide down it.
Birch was cool...sleeper was in great shape.
Decent 4 hours..


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Friday at 4:53 PM)

Kingslug20 said:


> Spring skiing...wet snow...only ice was on organ..I did not partake but watched some brave souls slide down it.
> Birch was cool...sleeper was in great shape.
> Decent 4 hours..View attachment 55848View attachment 55849View attachment 55850View attachment 55851


Thanks for photos, looks like today was pleasant but with the temps for the weekend going below freezing - well below on Saturday night - I think it will be more fun to stay south and go mountain biking instead. Looking forward to the next snowstorm!


----------



## Smellytele (Friday at 5:41 PM)

thetrailboss said:


> I bet that the wetbulb is too high. It is foggy and raining/misting here in the NEK.


No mist/rain all snow


----------



## Kingslug20 (Friday at 5:45 PM)

Glad I got the skis the big bazooka tune up...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Saturday at 7:41 AM)

Driving up about 16 miles away it was snowing heavily...pretty much disappeared as I got closer...2 inches reported at the top.
Flurries....see what I can get in before the hordes arrive.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Saturday at 12:22 PM)

Arrive at 730...leave at 10.
Ripcord was great..spent 4 laps on it...then moved around a bit..nice and empty...
Lynx was closed for snow making...was ok up there yesterday. Then the hordes arrived...see ya.
Oh...birdland looks almost skiable..lol..


----------



## pinnoke (Sunday at 6:32 PM)

Hey Sugarbush Friends: Taking thoughts off of skiing for this question, though Sugarbush-related! I'm steering away from AT&T for my cell phone, though I'm (only) satisfied with my coverage/reception while at Sugarbush. Anyone have good or bad experience to share with Verizon or T-Mobile? THANKS.


----------



## cdskier (Sunday at 7:47 PM)

pinnoke said:


> Hey Sugarbush Friends: Taking thoughts off of skiing for this question, though Sugarbush-related! I'm steering away from AT&T for my cell phone, though I'm (only) satisfied with my coverage/reception while at Sugarbush. Anyone have good or bad experience to share with Verizon or T-Mobile? THANKS.



Verizon works well for me on the mountain and decent at my condo at North Lynx (I have AT&T as well for my work phone and it is terrible at my condo but ok on the mountain itself). Verizon for the most part is pretty decent around the valley. Once you head south on 100 there's virtually no coverage with Verizon until you either get almost to K or head over to the other side of the greens. AT&T has at least a few spots along 100 between MRV and K where there's a bit of coverage.


----------



## SkiTheEast (Sunday at 8:39 PM)

pinnoke said:


> Hey Sugarbush Friends: Taking thoughts off of skiing for this question, though Sugarbush-related! I'm steering away from AT&T for my cell phone, though I'm (only) satisfied with my coverage/reception while at Sugarbush. Anyone have good or bad experience to share with Verizon or T-Mobile? THANKS.



I had T-Mobile a few years back (pre-Sprint merger) and coverage was non-existent. I would barely get texts and would data roam on AT&T (on a deprioritized basis, you would get a very limited amount of data before it would downshift to like 2G).  I'd be curious to know if the experience/coverage has improved since the merger with the deployment of Sprint's mid band spectrum. 

Regarding Verizon, worth pointing out that they've proposed putting a tower over by the Sugarbush Airport but still working through the public process.


----------



## Keelhauled (Sunday at 8:44 PM)

There was a survey done this past fall I think across VT that found AT&T had the widest coverage and fewest dropped calls across the state. This was a huge surprise to me since I have AT&T and it's kinda garbage pretty much universally in the valleys. Everyone I know who has Verizon is happy with it, and they have service in a lot of places I don't.


----------



## machski (Monday at 6:19 AM)

Keelhauled said:


> There was a survey done this past fall I think across VT that found AT&T had the widest coverage and fewest dropped calls across the state. This was a huge surprise to me since I have AT&T and it's kinda garbage pretty much universally in the valleys. Everyone I know who has Verizon is happy with it, and they have service in a lot of places I don't.


That is surprising on AT&T.  I still remembered the dawn of the iPhone when it was only on AT&T and VT residents couldn't own one as AT&T didn't even serve VT back then.


----------



## Hawk (Monday at 7:30 AM)

There is a new tower at the top of village run they put in about a bunch of years back for Verizon service.  I think Win cut a deal with them because service was so poor around the hill.  My company phone is verison and I get full bars everywhere at sugarbush and it is OK in Waitsfield.  Warren is spotty but works for the most part.


----------



## pinnoke (Monday at 7:41 AM)

Hawk said:


> There is a new tower at the top of village run they put in about a bunch of years back for Verizon service.  I think Win cut a deal with them because service was so poor around the hill.  My company phone is verison and I get full bars everywhere at sugarbush and it is OK in Waitsfield.  Warren is spotty but works for the most part.


I've had ATT since the 'beginning' (Cellular One, etc.). Coverage/dead zones/dropped calls, etc. have gotten progressively worse; and I'm not referencing the Sugarbush area. But, I don't want to switch if it results in poor Sugarbush coverage. From what I'm hearing here, I'd better be careful about switching to T-M. Comcast's mobile plan uses Verizon's infrastructure, and is currently a less expensive option that Verizon directly. But, dealing with Comcast for everything else has always been so frustrating! Thanks, all, for your input.


----------



## SkiTheEast (Monday at 7:54 AM)

Hawk said:


> There is a new tower at the top of village run they put in about a bunch of years back for Verizon service.  I think Win cut a deal with them because service was so poor around the hill.  My company phone is verison and I get full bars everywhere at sugarbush and it is OK in Waitsfield.  Warren is spotty but works for the most part.


My understanding is that there are both Verizon and AT&T antennas on that tower up on the top of village


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Monday at 7:56 AM)

my buddy who has t-mobile had service basically the whole way between Killington and Sugarbush sans Granville Gulch.  Verizon is basically nothing in that same area.


----------



## Hawk (Monday at 8:04 AM)

That may be the case.  I don't travel.  Also I don't shop around for the cheapest plan.  I have stuck with verizon and they have done fine by me.  Good service and no hasels.  Beats all the back and forth to save a nickle.


----------



## ThatGuy (Monday at 10:07 AM)

I have ATT and the only deadzone on 100 is the Granville gulch.


----------



## jaybird (Monday at 10:57 AM)

We’ve found Verizon service adequate throughout the Green Mtns. Texts transmit nearly all the time.
.. and it’s called ‘the gulch’ for good reason.

Back on topic .. the skiing on Sunday was particularly woeful.
Who set those sopping wet guns on lower spring fling ?
Eeegads


----------



## WWF-VT (Monday at 11:09 AM)

Interesting to see a snow gun positioned at the top of steep drop on Bravo yesterday


----------



## cdskier (Monday at 11:15 AM)

WWF-VT said:


> Interesting to see a snow gun positioned at the top of steep drop on Bravo yesterday


I recall one being there last year as well...but I don't recall last year whether it was actually used or not (hoses were there at one point last year, but I didn't actually see much sign of it being used last year at any point before it was removed).


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Monday at 11:28 AM)

i'm prematurely getting a bit bummed about 1/19-22. we rented a great house on slide brook road and going with my partner, my parents, my sisters and their husbands, and my nephews. first family ski trip in literally decades. half the crowd wont ski but wants sort of cute snowy winter vibes, and the other half are groomer skiers who i want to have a good time on the snow. this winter sucks. i know weather is out of my control but i do feel a certain sense of responsibility for everyone having a good time on this trip (this is largely why i prefer skiing by myself, i hate the stress of making sure other people are happy, in general). i cant wait for my western trip next month.


----------



## Hawk (Monday at 11:41 AM)

I only know of one house on Slide brook Road and they ski every weekend.  Are you sure?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Monday at 11:43 AM)

Hawk said:


> I only know of one house on Slide brook Road and they ski every weekend.  Are you sure?



near*. the address is on lockwood brook road. its basically where german flats road meets the mount ellen access road


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Monday at 12:10 PM)

jaybird said:


> We’ve found Verizon service adequate throughout the Green Mtns. Texts transmit nearly all the time.
> .. and it’s called ‘the gulch’ for good reason.
> 
> Back on topic .. the skiing on Sunday was particularly woeful.
> ...


Thanks for validating my decision to stay home and mountain bike!


----------



## Hawk (Monday at 12:22 PM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> near*. the address is on lockwood brook road. its basically where german flats road meets the mount ellen access road


There are some nice places up there.  I bet you will have a blast regardless of the condtions.


----------



## 1dog (Monday at 12:53 PM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> near*. the address is on lockwood brook road. its basically where german flats road meets the mount ellen access road


Buck up Kusty. I know the stress - its a good kind - you are thinking of others - Waitsfield/Warren/even Waterbury are nice and close for other activities.

Bring snow shoes and Catemount Trail is right across the street - and looks like you will need them:  https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-72.92870521545412&lat=44.15955275336873#.XkWdWyNOmiM

and:






						Mount Ellen (Vermont) Weather Forecast (1244m)
					

Mount Ellen (Vermont), Green Mountains, Appalachians, United States Mountain weather forecast for 1244m. Detailed 6 day mountain weather forecast for climbers and mountaineers.



					www.mountain-forecast.com
				




Don't leave too late though - traffic will be a nightmare w snow Friday.

And hell, if they bum you out too much, stop by for a hot tub Sat night.  We are less than 1/2 mile from you.


----------



## cdskier (Monday at 1:19 PM)

1dog said:


> Buck up Kusty. I know the stress - its a good kind - you are thinking of others - Waitsfield/Warren/even Waterbury are nice and close for other activities.
> 
> Bring snow shoes and Catemount Trail is right across the street - and looks like you will need them:  https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-72.92870521545412&lat=44.15955275336873#.XkWdWyNOmiM
> 
> ...



So the mountain forecast site shows a freezing level of over 6000' Thurs night-Fri, yet the NWS forecast says snow at 3000' for that same time-frame? Something isn't adding up here...

These forecasts are depressing. Mother Nature needs to get her shit together and get winter back on track asap...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Monday at 1:20 PM)

thanks. yea, we'll see. the forecast you linked is for this weekend. i am at sugarbush with the family the following weekend of 1/19-22. i am not one to get all upset about a 10 day forecast. i know its fairy tales that far out. but this winter is so far a lot of kicks in the dick.

I'm hopefully in maine this weekend unless i scrap it


----------



## Lotso (Monday at 1:31 PM)

cdskier said:


> I recall one being there last year as well...but I don't recall last year whether it was actually used or not (hoses were there at one point last year, but I didn't actually see much sign of it being used last year at any point before it was removed).


I have seen it too and it was used back in the Hardy Merrill days, along with guns pulled through the woods from Cliffs to Hammerhead.


----------



## Lotso (Monday at 1:32 PM)

ThatGuy said:


> I have ATT and the only deadzone on 100 is the Granville gulch.


And Waitsfield from Bridge Street to Telecom.


----------



## tumbler (Monday at 2:00 PM)

Lotso said:


> I have seen it too and it was used back in the Hardy Merrill days, along with guns pulled through the woods from Cliffs to Hammerhead.


This was being done long before Hardy.  The old trail maps showed Hammerhead, Lower Brambles and upper looking good with snowmaking all done with hoses through the woods.  Bravo headwall used to be done with hoses then some pipes were added to make it easier.  Exterminator not even shown with snowmaking anymore


----------



## Lotso (Monday at 2:12 PM)

tumbler said:


> This was being done long before Hardy.  The old trail maps showed Hammerhead, Lower Brambles and upper looking good with snowmaking all done with hoses through the woods.  Bravo headwall used to be done with hoses then some pipes were added to make it easier.  Exterminator not even shown with snowmaking anymore


Hydrants removed from Exterminator a few years ago.

IMO Lower Exterm is some of the nicest cruising no one skis...


----------



## cdskier (Monday at 2:16 PM)

Lotso said:


> Hydrants removed from Exterminator a few years ago.
> 
> IMO Lower Exterm is some of the nicest cruising no one skis...



Eh? They were still there as of last year on upper Exterminator (think they're disconnected though...but they are physically there on skier's left)


----------



## Lotso (Monday at 2:18 PM)

cdskier said:


> Eh? They were still there as of last year on upper Exterminator (think they're disconnected though...but they are physically there on skier's left)


I thought the ones that were out in the trail on UEx were removed but could have been mistaken. Don't know about any on woodline


----------



## cdskier (Monday at 2:34 PM)

Lotso said:


> I thought the ones that were out in the trail on UEx were removed but could have been mistaken. Don't know about any on woodline



I'm 100% certain they were there last year. Have yet to ski Exterminator this year (or even make it to ME), so no idea if they removed them in the off-season for some reason.


----------



## thetrailboss (Monday at 2:56 PM)

Lotso said:


> Hydrants removed from Exterminator a few years ago.
> 
> IMO Lower Exterm is some of the nicest cruising no one skis...


Exterminator was one of my favorites. Lower was always pretty nice and sparsely skied.


----------



## Castlerockrisk (Monday at 5:01 PM)

I live in the Valley and Verizon is the way to go for cell and data. Had AT&T and you can live with it sporadically but Verizon works well on the mountain, in town and up in East Warren. biggest dead spot is on the lower 300 yards of West Hill Road


----------



## rocks860 (Monday at 7:04 PM)

Wife got me dinner at allyns lodge for my birthday so we’ll be heading up Friday. We won’t be skiing this weekend but I was hoping to be able to ski down after dinner. What are the odds of that being possible?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Monday at 7:41 PM)

That area is totaly covered...there's plenty of man-made snow all over the place...I'm there 4 days a week


----------



## rocks860 (Monday at 8:19 PM)

Ok excellent, definitely the coolest birthday present I’ve ever gotten


----------



## cdskier (Monday at 8:32 PM)

Yea...from Allyn's I though the route is VHT to Spring Fling after dinners up there. If there's no snow on that route...then we have a major issue. Although even if I'm wrong on the route, whatever route they usually use from Allyn's down to the base is going to be one of the major ones that is covered.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Monday at 8:34 PM)

Then I'm really getting on a plane...and not coming back until spring.


----------



## dustyroads (Tuesday at 6:04 AM)

SkiTheEast said:


> My understanding is that there are both Verizon and AT&T antennas on that tower up on the top of village


I talked to some workers on the tower this summer while hiking. They said, they were installing 5g for T-mobile. They were there for a lot of the summer.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Tuesday at 6:41 AM)

Nice webcam this morning


----------



## 1dog (Tuesday at 8:41 AM)

tumbler said:


> This was being done long before Hardy.  The old trail maps showed Hammerhead, Lower Brambles and upper looking good with snowmaking all done with hoses through the woods.  Bravo headwall used to be done with hoses then some pipes were added to make it easier.  Exterminator not even shown with snowmaking anymore


There is a gun pointed  toward the headwall on Bravo - Sunday - not running but bet it ran this week. Dragged thru the woods.


----------



## tumbler (Tuesday at 8:51 AM)

The snow report gave away my favorite run: 
_If you're looking for a leg-burning, brow-sweating, turn-giving, speedy and fun run then I would highly recommend doing a top–to-bottom run by way of Ripcord, to Lower Downspout, to Lower Jester, you won’t be disappointed _
Nothing better than Lower DS > Lower Jester > Gondolier


----------



## cdskier (Tuesday at 9:04 AM)

tumbler said:


> The snow report gave away my favorite run:
> _If you're looking for a leg-burning, brow-sweating, turn-giving, speedy and fun run then I would highly recommend doing a top–to-bottom run by way of Ripcord, to Lower Downspout, to Lower Jester, you won’t be disappointed _
> Nothing better than Lower DS > Lower Jester > Gondolier



I detect some sarcasm!

I've been trying to be nice, but I've really been unimpressed by whoever is writing the snow report again this year. Lots of minor (but annoying) mistakes. Today for example the narrative claims the groomers followed the same plan as the past few nights and that 30 trails were groomed. Yet the trail report indicates 29 trails groomed and shows that OG was groomed instead of RC/Lower RC. Was the plan actually the same? Or was OG groomed instead of RC for a change? Minor details like this matter (although I suppose you can argue that most people don't pay that close attention anyway to the report before they head out to the mountain)

I also love this part of the snow report today: "Conditions today will be superb with a dusting of powder on top with firm corduroy and frozen granular underneath, it should make for a great day of skiing and riding." Not sure on what planet firm cord and frozen granular with a "dusting of powder" on top yields "superb" conditions. We need to go back to the days of being more realistic in the report instead of trying to paint everything with an overly positive brush.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Tuesday at 9:20 AM)

yea i take that as part of alterra ownership and the never-be-negative corporate messaging 

i just called it and cancelled my waitsfield and maine hotels for this weekend. back to Canada.


----------



## thetrailboss (Tuesday at 9:38 AM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea i take that as part of alterra ownership and the never-be-negative corporate messaging
> 
> i just called it and cancelled my waitsfield and maine hotels for this weekend. back to Canada.


My feelings of Alterra aside…..

The industry has always tried to be positive. Otherwise you’d go insane with these conditions.


----------



## thetrailboss (Tuesday at 9:58 AM)

cdskier said:


> I detect some sarcasm!
> 
> I've been trying to be nice, but I've really been unimpressed by whoever is writing the snow report again this year. Lots of minor (but annoying) mistakes. Today for example the narrative claims the groomers followed the same plan as the past few nights and that 30 trails were groomed. Yet the trail report indicates 29 trails groomed and shows that OG was groomed instead of RC/Lower RC. Was the plan actually the same? Or was OG groomed instead of RC for a change? Minor details like this matter (although I suppose you can argue that most people don't pay that close attention anyway to the report before they head out to the mountain)
> 
> I also love this part of the snow report today: "Conditions today will be superb with a dusting of powder on top with firm corduroy and frozen granular underneath, it should make for a great day of skiing and riding." Not sure on what planet firm cord and frozen granular with a "dusting of powder" on top yields "superb" conditions. We need to go back to the days of being more realistic in the report instead of trying to paint everything with an overly positive brush.


It's interesting because, as we've discussed before, snow reports are crucial on the east coast with the weather and conditions constantly changing. Accuracy makes a big difference and boasts credibility, especially when terrain offerings are so limited.


----------



## cdskier (Tuesday at 10:09 AM)

thetrailboss said:


> It's interesting because, as we've discussed before, snow reports are crucial on the east coast with the weather and conditions constantly changing. Accuracy makes a big difference and boasts credibility, especially when terrain offerings are so limited.



Agreed... There have been some really weird mistakes this year too. I've seen several cases where the wrong trail name was mentioned in the narrative (as in trail names that don't even exist...maybe an auto-correct error when typing that the reporter didn't catch before posting or just mixing and matching pieces of names from various trails). For example the other day the narrative said they were making snow at ME on "Sugar Run Forest".

On another note...we need snow quickly so I can stop being so cranky and critical...


----------



## thetrailboss (Tuesday at 10:42 AM)

Now this is interesting…..


----------



## crank (Tuesday at 10:42 AM)

Well they were pretty honest re frozen granular with a little snow on top.  I can't fault them too much for trying to put a positive spin on things so long as they tell the truth.

I don't care as much about de tails as some though...not a detailed crank.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Tuesday at 10:43 AM)

ah the good old 'spend $2000 on lodging and ski for free' "deal"

nice picture. I'm sure its recent and accurately reflects current conditions. /s


----------



## tumbler (Tuesday at 10:48 AM)

Actually that pic shows worse than it is now.  The road to the Maint shop is still being used around Bravo in the pic, that is just an early season dusting  Not denying it stinks right now with icy snowmaking trails, but everything is white


----------



## cdskier (Tuesday at 10:57 AM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ah the good old 'spend $2000 on lodging and ski for free' "deal"
> 
> nice picture. I'm sure its recent and accurately reflects current conditions. /s



I was kind of curious what the prices actually were...

$2K? Try $4K...and that's apparently almost 60% off the "normal" rate. Here's 3 nights with the cheapest option currently available (likely cheaper options were available when they first posted this to be fair as originally even rooms at the Sugar Lodge were supposedly part of the deal when I first saw it posted on social media).


----------



## HowieT2 (Tuesday at 11:15 AM)

weather forecast is fooking depressing.  guess I start packing early to fly out west.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Tuesday at 11:25 AM)

Organ grinder best shape in a while..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Tuesday at 12:56 PM)

It's snowpocalypse on spring and snowball


----------



## foofy (Tuesday at 2:00 PM)

thetrailboss said:


> It's interesting because, as we've discussed before, snow reports are crucial on the east coast with the weather and conditions constantly changing. Accuracy makes a big difference and boasts credibility, especially when terrain offerings are so limited.


MRG snow reports remain a refreshing shot of reality and good humor.


----------



## tumbler (Tuesday at 3:34 PM)

Look at all that cloud seeding


----------



## JimG. (Tuesday at 3:56 PM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just called it and cancelled my waitsfield and maine hotels for this weekend. back to Canada.


This is a smart move.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Tuesday at 4:14 PM)

JimG. said:


> This is a smart move.



it is a smart move. but its also annoying. it is 100% weather's fault, but i got the full ikon and the indy plus specifically so that i could use them on crowded holiday weekends, and i am now spending xmas and mlk at the alterra crown jewel of crowded unblackedout holiday skiing.

this is a first world white person's problem of the highest degree.

the full ikon will get is value via sun valley, jackson, snowbasin, and using 7 killington days

the indy plus seems to already be kind of a bust after failing to use it over xmas or mlk. i am using it at powmow when it would be blacked out (a Saturday). maybe I'll also get to cannon on a sat in feb when the regular indy is blacked out.


----------



## 1dog (Tuesday at 6:39 PM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it is a smart move. but its also annoying. it is 100% weather's fault, but i got the full ikon and the indy plus specifically so that i could use them on crowded holiday weekends, and i am now spending xmas and mlk at the alterra crown jewel of crowded unblackedout holiday skiing.
> 
> this is a first world white person's problem of the highest degree.
> 
> ...


I am hoping you made a mistake - and we get a foot Thurs-Sat. Correct on the 1st world problem tho. Predictions in weather are similar to the market, no one really knows the future but its where we will all be so good to plan on it. 

“The future interests me – I’m going to spend the rest of my life there.”

— Mark Twain


----------



## jaybird (Tuesday at 7:19 PM)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it is a smart move. but its also annoying. it is 100% weather's fault, but i got the full ikon and the indy plus specifically so that i could use them on crowded holiday weekends, and i am now spending xmas and mlk at the alterra crown jewel of crowded unblackedout holiday skiing.
> 
> this is a first world white person's problem of the highest degree.
> 
> ...


Any indy bust would be heavily offset by what you cite as ikon destinations.
Power to all 1st world beneficiaries 

Revelstoke .. 3 weeks and counting 
Their early season weak layer has stabilized 
Gnorme about to get blanketed again.
Peace out.


----------



## Getskied (Tuesday at 9:01 PM)

cdskier said:


> Agreed... There have been some really weird mistakes this year too. I've seen several cases where the wrong trail name was mentioned in the narrative (as in trail names that don't even exist...maybe an auto-correct error when typing that the reporter didn't catch before posting or just mixing and matching pieces of names from various trails). For example the other day the narrative said they were making snow at ME on "Sugar Run Forest".
> 
> On another note...we need snow quickly so I can stop being so cranky and critical...


The written report is laughably bad this year. It’s like it’s being written by an AI bot given limited prior information. Not only rose colored glasses but just plain wonky descriptions of trails and conditions. I believe skiers are generally reasonable people who also watch the weather conditions (generally) and can be trusted to digest real information and not just fluff. Especially when so many of us already bought seasons passes and gave Alterra most of the money we will spend for the season many months ago.

Fortunately Sugarbush has an A+ webcam game because one can surmise 100x more information from live video feeds than any written report this year. Add that to the MRG report and you have a well rounded idea of what’s actually happening.


----------



## tumbler (Yesterday at 9:25 AM)

So no snowmaking terrain expansion for the holiday weekend or bouncing around for trail refresh. _Thanks to favorable temperatures, our snowmakers are going full tilt on several trails; building deep bases to ensure a long season  _Been running on Snowball > Fling for 3 days.  I shouldn't be surprised, it's not what they do.


----------



## Hawk (Yesterday at 9:31 AM)

It's time for Steins.  Also upper Birdland needs some.  I bet the switch to Steins next.


----------



## cdskier (Yesterday at 9:34 AM)

They've been making snow on Birch and Sunrise...so that's at least a bit of expansion.

Stein's would be nice though.


----------



## Hawk (Yesterday at 9:42 AM)

On the topic of slightly wonky, I noticed a ways back in the Trail reports section they have all the trails and woods listed with status by what peaks they are on.  They have Gangsta's and Eden listed as Lincoln Peak and not Gadd peak where they list Steins, Egans, moonshine, Spring fling, etc.  You would have thought someone would have caught that.  Small but still wonky for an experienced sugarbush web manager.


----------



## Getskied (Yesterday at 9:45 AM)

tumbler said:


> So no snowmaking terrain expansion for the holiday weekend or bouncing around for trail refresh. _Thanks to favorable temperatures, our snowmakers are going full tilt on several trails; building deep bases to ensure a long season  _Been running on Snowball > Fling for 3 days.  I shouldn't be surprised, it's not what they do.


Well they've sure refreshed Spring Fling. 

I dont understand it, getting Steins open for the holiday weekend would seem to be a higher priority item than stowing away a slush fund on SF. SF was definitely getting thin in spots but didnt exactly need 96+ straight hours of snowmaking to be skiable again.

If I'm reading the report correctly however they've refreshed Sleeper Chutes, which does count as a refresh! (albeit on 80 vertical feet)


----------



## Kingslug20 (Yesterday at 9:48 AM)

They need to groom murphys..frozen bump wasteland...unless you like that sort of thing.
Spring and snowball were very fun yesterday..extended my day by a few hours flying through them.


----------



## cdskier (Yesterday at 9:49 AM)

Hawk said:


> On the topic of slightly wonky, I noticed a ways back in the Trail reports section they have all the trails and woods listed with status by what peaks they are on.  They have Gangsta's and Eden listed as Lincoln Peak and not Gadd peak where they list Steins, Egans, moonshine, Spring fling, etc.  You would have thought someone would have caught that.  Small but still wonky for an experienced sugarbush web manager.



Yup...we discussed that weirdness last year in here as well. This year I think they moved a couple of the woods from Lincoln to Gadd...but still nowhere near all the ones that should be. Really seems like that would be a simple fix to update which mountain section a trail is located in. Based on the breakdown of trails themselves, I'd say Grandstand is probably the only wood trail that makes sense to stay in the Lincoln Peak section. All the others should be in Gadd based on the trails surrounding them.


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## Hawk (Yesterday at 9:50 AM)

Getskied said:


> Well they've sure refreshed Spring Fling.
> 
> I dont understand it, getting Steins open for the holiday weekend would seem to be a higher priority item than stowing away a slush fund on SF. SF was definitely getting thin in spots but didnt exactly need 96+ straight hours of snowmaking to be skiable again.
> 
> If I'm reading the report correctly however they've refreshed Sleeper Chutes, which does count as a refresh! (albeit on 80 vertical feet)


They always bury it because that is what they ski last as an alternative to Steins when they only have Vally house open for a lift.  Upper snowball faces the sun so it melts out quick.  That is where they really need big piles to make is last.


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## tumbler (Yesterday at 10:04 AM)

I recall they left upper birdland natural with bumps last year, I hope that is not the plan going forward, that is one of my favorite groomer runs.  No Steins is surprising and no upper FIS with the new pipe that went in.  I was surprised last weekend with the big grooming plan that Murphy's was not groomed.  The people I saw were not enjoying their time on it.


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## Getskied (Yesterday at 10:04 AM)

Hawk said:


> They always bury it because that is what they ski last as an alternative to Steins when they only have Vally house open for a lift.  Upper snowball faces the sun so it melts out quick.  That is where they really need big piles to make is last.


I get the purpose, just seems like this time of year there might be some other priorities too. If there arent a few more cold snaps in the next month or so to build out spring depths off Valley House we have bigger problems.


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## Hawk (Yesterday at 10:13 AM)

I hear you.  I have been complaining about snowmaking for years coming from one of the best in the east.  I now just deal with it.  No more complaining.  They will do what they think is best.  They have a reason for everything.


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## cdskier (Yesterday at 10:15 AM)

tumbler said:


> I recall they left upper birdland natural with bumps last year, I hope that is not the plan going forward, that is one of my favorite groomer runs.  No Steins is surprising and no upper FIS with the new pipe that went in.  I was surprised last weekend with the big grooming plan that Murphy's was not groomed.  The people I saw were not enjoying their time on it.



Wasn't there some issue last year with running out of water (due to it being TOO cold) which is why they left birdland alone and never went back to it when the water started flowing again? Agree though that I hope they get to it this year, but I also feel like that should be last on the list (Hotshot/Waterfall still needs to be done as well as Steins).

As for FIS...that's surprising I agree. It was listed with the snowmaking symbol on the trail report on the website earlier this week, but they never made anything best I can tell. Not sure if the plan changed that night and they decided to focus only on the lower elevation stuff over there or if they ran into an issue. Hopefully it is the former and not the latter...


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## Hawk (Yesterday at 10:15 AM)

No they blew it once for like one day.  There were wet piles.  I remeber because I almost killed myself when I stuck and had to do some slick ballet.


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## Kingslug20 (Yesterday at 10:17 AM)

I prefer moguls..just not rock hard ones...sleeper chute was just that!


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## cdskier (Yesterday at 10:17 AM)

Hawk said:


> No they blew it once for like one day.  There were wet piles.  I remeber because I almost killed myself when I stuck and had to do some slick ballet.



Are you talking about Birdland last year or FIS this year? Birdland they did start last year IIRC, but ran out of water before they finished it and then never went back to it.


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## Getskied (Yesterday at 10:27 AM)

Hawk said:


> I hear you.  I have been complaining about snowmaking for years coming from one of the best in the east.  I now just deal with it.  No more complaining.  They will do what they think is best.  They have a reason for everything.


Oh I agree. Its one of the many charms of Sugarbush, and ski forums are for debating and speculating on largely unimportant topics like this. My pass is blacked out this weekend anyway, so doesnt really bother me in the short term.


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## tumbler (Yesterday at 10:34 AM)

What do people think with Ikon base blacked out this weekend, will it make a difference in the traditional zoo crowd?  I don't know but thinking with no snow and relatively warm in flatlands some people will bail on their trip and with SB offering the lodging special they must be getting cancelations.  I'll be there but probably not on the hill for long...


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## cdskier (Yesterday at 10:38 AM)

tumbler said:


> What do people think with Ikon base blacked out this weekend, will it make a difference in the traditional zoo crowd?  I don't know but thinking with no snow and relatively warm in flatlands some people will bail on their trip and with SB offering the lodging special they must be getting cancelations.  I'll be there but probably not on the hill for long...



I'm still debating whether to drive up...from a crowd perspective I honestly don't think it will be too bad with the blackouts and crappy weather. But then again, that will also be offset by limited terrain open so less places for people to spread out...


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## Kingslug20 (Yesterday at 10:44 AM)

Arrive at 730..ski at 8..leave at 11...


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## drjeff (Yesterday at 10:59 AM)

tumbler said:


> What do people think with Ikon base blacked out this weekend, will it make a difference in the traditional zoo crowd?  I don't know but thinking with no snow and relatively warm in flatlands some people will bail on their trip and with SB offering the lodging special they must be getting cancelations.  I'll be there but probably not on the hill for long...



I read that offer to the base pass, blocked out folks, as that their central reservations objective data, from everything ranging from lodging to ski school bookings, is quite behind what it typically would be for an MLK weekend, and probably seeing a decent amount of cancelations.

My hunch is that this MLK weekend, while there will be some crowds for sure, won't be at the mega crowds that we usually see for MLK weekend, even with the forecast trending now so that the precipitation will be done for mst places for most of the weekend.

Add in for those going North, my guess is the drive will be much less volume wise than normal, since there really aren;t too many miles of snowmobile trails open and available now, to get a large portion of that crowd (and there are a signifcant amount of them traveling North on a "normal" Winter weekend) and I suspect that we won't be seeing what we are used to see crowd wise for MLK weekend this year


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## Hawk (Yesterday at 3:54 PM)

I'll be up this weekend.  Demoing Black crows and buying new skis at some point.  I also have a resevation at Chez Henri.
I do not think it will be that bad because of the weather but we will see.


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## KustyTheKlown (Yesterday at 3:58 PM)

Hawk said:


> I'll be up this weekend.  Demoing Black crows and buying new skis at some point.  I also have a resevation at Chez Henri.
> I do not think it will be that bad because of the weather but we will see.



which crows?

a word of caution - my 2017ish black crows corvus (black and pink) lasted all of 10 ski days before blowing out under the boot at gore. the customer service was aces and replaced the skis with some basic proof of purchase and photos and a minimal amount of back and forth emails. they sent me the 2019ish version (white and pink). those held up ok, but this past weekend they ate shit with a very strange big separation between the edge and the sidewall. they're prob too skied to make a warranty claim again, but at this point i sort of view black crows quality with a side-eye, especially if you are going to be doing any sort of charging or low tide eastern tree skiing

i made a reservation for mad river barn for the whole family next Friday the 20th. peasant and henri and hen of the wood all seem too fancy to bring my 4 and 0 year old nephews. we'll cook and get high at the house the other nights. the apple fell right beneath the tree. mom is excited for dispensaries lol


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## Hawk (Yesterday at 4:04 PM)

Camox and Atris.  I am looking for something that can handle a bunch of different conditions.  I think the Atris is a good option for out west and bigger skiing.  I am trying the Camox for a fun ski around the Bush.


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## crank (Yesterday at 5:32 PM)

drjeff said:


> I read that offer to the base pass, blocked out folks, as that their central reservations objective data, from everything ranging from lodging to ski school bookings, is quite behind what it typically would be for an MLK weekend, and probably seeing a decent amount of cancelations.
> 
> My hunch is that this MLK weekend, while there will be some crowds for sure, won't be at the mega crowds that we usually see for MLK weekend, even with the forecast trending now so that the precipitation will be done for mst places for most of the weekend.
> 
> Add in for those going North, my guess is the drive will be much less volume wise than normal, since there really aren;t too many miles of snowmobile trails open and available now, to get a large portion of that crowd (and there are a signifcant amount of them traveling North on a "normal" Winter weekend) and I suspect that we won't be seeing what we are used to see crowd wise for MLK weekend this year


I was supposed to be going sledding in ME this weekend.  Cancelled 2nd year in a row.  Grr.


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## Lotso (Today at 7:28 AM)

It's going to be rugged if we get the forecast rain and then wind on the back side... rinse and repeat.


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## Kingslug20 (Today at 9:01 AM)

Sleep in....


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## HowieT2 (Today at 11:22 AM)

Kingslug20 said:


> Sleep in....


wake me come february


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## djd66 (Today at 12:38 PM)

I just pulled the trigger on 5 days in Colorado for next week.  I can't take this anymore!  This has to be the least amount of ski days I have ever had going into Mid January.


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## Lotso (Today at 1:46 PM)

Not that I am a park skier, but any word on if they will put snow down and build the park under Sunny D? I always wondered if they got enough traffic on it to justify the huge expense of the snow and grooming required, and maybe this year they will just keep on with a few features on other trails. Anyone heard anything? Just curious.


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## Smellytele (Today at 4:29 PM)

djd66 said:


> I just pulled the trigger on 5 days in Colorado for next week.  I can't take this anymore!  This has to be the least amount of ski days I have ever had going into Mid January.


My youngest son is out there right now with his girlfriend visiting my oldest son and his fiancé
Said Loveland with his brother yesterday was the best so far. Face shots off the #1 lift. 
Abasin was good as well the other day but his girlfriend lost her ski in the powder and never found it. 
He is at Copper today with all of them as the 2 girls are not very good skiers.


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## Getskied (Today at 4:37 PM)

Lotso said:


> Not that I am a park skier, but any word on if they will put snow down and build the park under Sunny D? I always wondered if they got enough traffic on it to justify the huge expense of the snow and grooming required, and maybe this year they will just keep on with a few features on other trails. Anyone heard anything? Just curious.


I have zero inside knowledge on this but the park always seemed crowded enough to me on weekends in prior years.

As a post-park aged skier with young kids who prefers Ellen under normal mid-season circumstances I would love it if that park was mothballed and Sunny Q could finally become the beginner skiing area that the mountain so desperately needs. 

Just as a side note, combining park features and beginner trails into the same general area is incredibly annoying. If you've never had a park rat buzz your 4 year old on a crowded Pushover en route to Slowpoke early season you probably wouldnt understand. The Sunny Q pod has the same issues once the park is there.


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## djd66 (Today at 4:38 PM)

Smellytele said:


> My youngest son is out there right now with his girlfriend visiting my oldest son and his fiancé
> Said Loveland with his brother yesterday was the best so far. Face shots off the #1 lift.
> Abasin was good as well the other day but his girlfriend lost her ski in the powder and never found it.
> He is at Copper today with all of them as the 2 girls are not very good skiers.


Good to know, we are headed to Snowmass.  The great thing is the whole trip is on points, so it costs me $0.00  I'm going with my daughter who's home on break - good father/daughter bonding time!


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## Hawk (Today at 4:38 PM)

Dolimiti Superski and a Venice start for me.  2 weeks starting Feb 8.  Forcast is for snow starting up this weekend for a week or so.


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## Smellytele (57 minutes ago)

Hawk said:


> Dolimiti Superski and a Venice start for me.  2 weeks starting Feb 8.  Forcast is for snow starting up this weekend for a week or so.


Europe hasn't been seeing any snow either


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## crank (46 minutes ago)

Dolomites are all about groomers, great grooming btw, and stopping at mountain huts/refuges to eat and drink and enjoy the scenery.


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