# Spillway Reopens on Sugarloaf and Replacement Plans



## wa-loaf (Feb 21, 2011)

http://www.sugarloaf.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2010/spillway_reopens.html


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## Skimaine (Feb 21, 2011)

Great news that Spillway East is open.  Also great news that snow making has resumed on Hayburner, Kings, et al for the express purpose of providing spring skiing.


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## snowmonster (Feb 22, 2011)

It's been reported on Boston.com: http://www.boston.com/travel/explorene/specials/ski/blog/2011/02/spillway_rides.html?p1=Upbox_links

"Sugarloafers, your chair awaits. At last. 

"The Spillway East double chair that derailed on Dec.28 finally reopened Monday afternoon following exhaustive repair and testing. The Maine State Elevator and Tram Board deemed the iconic double chairlift safe after a complete inspection and load test. No live people or crash test dummies were used -  instead 36- pound plastic-lined boxes filled with water were loaded onto each chair.

"While the lift is back up and running just in time for the busy February vacation week, its replacement is still a priority for Sugarloaf management. Hopefully a new name, other than dubious "Spillway" will be considered as well." (Reported by Heather Burke)


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## dbking (Feb 22, 2011)

Ya know what noise it made when it hit the ground?

BOYYYYYYNNNNNNNE


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## Skimaine (Feb 22, 2011)

Heather, Heather, Heather.  An iconic lift with a dubious name?  Nah.  I am hoping they install a new lift and keep the name.


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## riverc0il (Feb 22, 2011)

Such a dubious name. :roll: Eff that. Keep the name and the logging theme heritage. Shame on that style of reporting style. Yea, it might be a "blog" but its on one of Boston's premier media web sites so I would expect better. Who wants another "North Ridge Chairlift"? I say the skiing world needs more such "dubious" names. That is good stuff, right there.


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## bigbog (Feb 23, 2011)

Skimaine said:


> ........I am hoping they install a new lift and keep the name.



My God, wouldn't that be nice.....or something that wouldn't get shutdown with the wind...which would probably
bring on ticket/pass increases.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2011)

Breaking news from Sugarloaf: Spillway QUAD announced for this summer WITH a MAGIC CARPET/CONVEYOR. 

Rebuilding the SuperQuad's electronics. 



Spillway will have a lower profile, be heavier, and will be as windproof as possible.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 23, 2011)

Good news!

I wonder if they will have the conveyor at the top too? Either way there is going to have to be some serious blasting up there to make room for folks coming off of a fast quad.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2011)

The press release:  

http://www.sugarloaf.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2010/new_lift.html


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 23, 2011)

"Work on the lift requires cooperation from Mother Nature, and crews have been slowed by two snowstorms and extreme cold throughout the past week

this is a SKI lift we are talking about right?? at a SKI resort...isnt a lift supposed to work in snowstorms and extreme cold?  

I dont know a wholelot about the process, but seems logical to test in conditions that would be expected when people get on it.....


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## wa-loaf (Feb 23, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> "Work on the lift requires cooperation from Mother Nature, and crews have been slowed by two snowstorms and extreme cold throughout the past week
> 
> this is a SKI lift we are talking about right?? at a SKI resort...isnt a lift supposed to work in snowstorms and extreme cold?
> 
> I dont know a wholelot about the process, but seems logical to test in conditions that would be expected when people get on it.....



Running a lift in winter weather is a little different than being out there working on it. Especially with the extensive repairs that were needed.


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## bigbob (Feb 23, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Such a dubious name. :roll: Eff that. Keep the name and the logging theme heritage. Shame on that style of reporting style. Yea, it might be a "blog" but its on one of Boston's premier media web sites so I would expect better. Who wants another "North Ridge Chairlift"? I say the skiing world needs more such "dubious" names. That is good stuff, right there.



How about we call it "THE SPILLWAY QUAD"????


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## Edd (Feb 23, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> "Work on the lift requires cooperation from Mother Nature, and crews have been slowed by two snowstorms and extreme cold throughout the past week
> 
> this is a SKI lift we are talking about right?? at a SKI resort...isnt a lift supposed to work in snowstorms and extreme cold?
> 
> I dont know a wholelot about the process, but seems logical to test in conditions that would be expected when people get on it.....



This isn't typical maintenance or a normal breakdown.  It was a significant incident with nationwide press attention and quite a stroke of luck that nobody was killed.  They probably had to perform a level of maintenance normally reserved for summer weather


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## UVSHTSTRM (Feb 23, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> "Work on the lift requires cooperation from Mother Nature, and crews have been slowed by two snowstorms and extreme cold throughout the past week
> 
> this is a SKI lift we are talking about right?? at a SKI resort...isnt a lift supposed to work in snowstorms and extreme cold?
> 
> I dont know a wholelot about the process, but seems logical to test in conditions that would be expected when people get on it.....



What does working on the lift in bad weather have to do with testing it in bad weather?  You used a quote regarding work in poor weather vs your comment regarding testing....am Am I reading that correctly?


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## EPB (Feb 23, 2011)

This is great news for Sugarloaf.  They have great terrain, but a lackluster lift system.  The Spillway replacement coupled with the overhaul of the Superquad equipment (which has been a disaster since it was installed) should go a long way toward bringing the lift system into the 21st century.  

The second phase of the Brackett Basin expansion was also confirmed during the press conference.  The lines out there should be great, especially considering that they will be cutting all the way up to the summit of Burnt Mountain.  It will be interesting to see how the need for rescues will increase as the gladed zone becomes more expansive.  They would probably do themselves a big favor by cutting some carefully placed trails on the outside of the boundaries, and perhaps in the middle of the zone as well.


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## bigbog (Feb 23, 2011)

1+  epb

They have good ideas, but would like them to emulate more VT trails = keeping trees = less wind-blown.


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## MV Frank (Feb 23, 2011)

Even with a speedier spillway lift, double runner is still excruciatingly slow... crossing my fingers that's the next one due for the upgrade afterwards


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## wa-loaf (Feb 23, 2011)

MV Frank said:


> Even with a speedier spillway lift, double runner is still excruciatingly slow... crossing my fingers that's the next one due for the upgrade afterwards



The whole point of the Spillway lift is so you don't have to go all the way down on the flats. Spillway chair is perfect for lapping in the spring. And if you need to get up fast from the base there's the Superquad. Really no need to ride DR unless you are skiing Boardwalk. Not that the lift doesn't need replacement, but def not at the top of my list.


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## MV Frank (Feb 23, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> The whole point of the Spillway lift is so you don't have to go all the way down on the flats. Spillway chair is perfect for lapping in the spring. And if you need to get up fast from the base there's the Superquad. Really no need to ride DR unless you are skiing Boardwalk. Not that the lift doesn't need replacement, but def not at the top of my list.


True, though I've jumped on double runner many times when superquad is stuck and lines are accumulating...and man its slow. It would be great for the resort too to have better uphill capacity from the base with 3 fast lifts.

That said, an express timberline would be sick...just wishful thinking


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## Tin Woodsman (Feb 24, 2011)

Wait - a ski area is installing a new fixed-grip chairlift when there are plenty of cheaper, used ones available??!!  Call the press!  It's an outrage!


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## EPB (Feb 24, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Wait - a ski area is installing a new fixed-grip chairlift when there are plenty of cheaper, used ones available??!!  Call the press!  It's an outrage!



I was just thinking I hadn't heard from good old Tin Woodsman lately.  I was actually going to suggest that Mountain Vertical's numbers might be legitimate because you didn't tell the guy that he sucked at the internet.

It's also pretty scandalous that the lift cost $3,000,000.  That's a cool 200,000 or 7.14% more than the Mittersill lift.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2011)

The latest from Sugarloaf:  the base of the Spillway has been dismantled.  

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/


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## bigbob (Jun 6, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> I was just thinking I hadn't heard from good old Tin Woodsman lately.  I was actually going to suggest that Mountain Vertical's numbers might be legitimate because you didn't tell the guy that he sucked at the internet.
> 
> It's also pretty scandalous that the lift cost $3,000,000.  That's a cool 200,000 or 7.14% more than the Mittersill lift.



Mittersill did not have the loading carpet feature and was only a double.


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## K2Trav (Jun 9, 2011)

pics of spillway from this week, including the bottom burning to the ground, oh yeah, i skied too

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150322389057306.413794.505322305


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2011)

K2Trav said:


> pics of spillway from this week, including the bottom burning to the ground, oh yeah, i skied too
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150322389057306.413794.505322305


 
Was that fire intended?  I don't see anyone standing by to watch over it...but then again, nobody was there to put it out.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 9, 2011)

K2Trav said:


> pics of spillway from this week, including the bottom burning to the ground, oh yeah, i skied too
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150322389057306.413794.505322305



What's with the fire? Was that intentional?


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## K2Trav (Jun 9, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> What's with the fire? Was that intentional?



They were standing on the roof using a cutting torch, sparks caught the roof on fire.  The building was going away one way or another.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2011)

K2Trav said:


> They were standing on the roof using a cutting torch, sparks caught the roof on fire. The building was going away one way or another.


 
I wondered if that was what happened.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2011)

Sugarloaf has jackhammered the base and is in the process of removing the towers.  

Click here for pics:  http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/


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## wa-loaf (Jun 14, 2011)

Funny they don't have any pics of the lift shack burning down ...


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## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2011)

Any work being done on Brackett expansion?  Last summer they had some pretty cool videos showing the new work.


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## K2Trav (Jun 15, 2011)

Ethan was there and had left just before the fire started, the crew took plenty of pics.  Work will start on Brackett soon, probably around july 1st, right now the brackett cutting crew is working on building single track mtn bike trails at the outdoor center.  watched towers 7 and 8 fall today, most the towers for spillway should be down by the end of the day


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## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2011)

cool

If you happen to get photos of the new Bracket stuff, please post them up.   I was impressed with the small amount of Bracket I got to sample last year.

Are they cutting up to Burnt summit for next season?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2011)

More pics just put up....

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2011)

Awww yeah!







http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/6732162031/each-week-brings-new-activity-around-sugarloafs


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## wa-loaf (Jun 20, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Awww yeah!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you care? You're skiing in Utah next year! ;-)


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## bvibert (Jun 20, 2011)

I love lift construction pics!

Still a little sad to see old lifts coming down though...


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## bobbutts (Jun 20, 2011)

K2Trav said:


> They were standing on the roof using a crack torch, sparks caught the roof on fire.  The building was going away one way or another.



fixed


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## bigbob (Jun 20, 2011)

Come on K2Trav, why don't you share your latest Loaf news/rumor for next summer.


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## Nick (Jun 20, 2011)

Pretty cool pics, looking forward to this next year when we hit up the AZ summit big-time!


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## wa-loaf (Jun 20, 2011)

Nick said:


> Pretty cool pics, looking forward to this next year when we hit up the AZ summit big-time!



details?


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## Nick (Jun 20, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> details?



Still working on it, but my goal is to make it a huge blowout!

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> What do you care? You're skiing in Utah next year! ;-)


 
If I have my way I will be skiing at Snowbird this weekend and next!


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## wa-loaf (Jun 28, 2011)

Pouring foundations:

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7018199784/construction-has-begun-our-apologies-for-the


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 28, 2011)

Isn't there a way to drive a concrete truck up there?  That skidder is going to have to take a lot of trips back and forth otherwise...


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## wa-loaf (Jun 28, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Isn't there a way to drive a concrete truck up there?  That skidder is going to have to take a lot of trips back and forth otherwise...



They can get the truck up to the base and probably the summit stations, but most of the tower bases will need the skidder method.


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## snowmonster (Jun 29, 2011)

Looks like they're calling it the Skyline Quad now:

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7047134254/a-new-lift-and-a-new-name

It'll always be Spillway to me. I wonder if they'll also change the name of the trail.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 29, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> Looks like they're calling it the Skyline Quad now:
> 
> http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7047134254/a-new-lift-and-a-new-name
> 
> It'll always be Spillway to me. I wonder if they'll also change the name of the trail.



I have feeling it will remain Spillway with the regulars.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 29, 2011)

Booo

Should remain Spillway

Just like it should be Sugarloaf USA


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## snowmonster (Jun 29, 2011)

I still use the sugarloaf/usa stickers. Been wanting to stick one on the rear window but don't want to clutter the car too much.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 29, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> I still use the sugarloaf/usa stickers. Been wanting to stick one on the rear window but don't want to clutter the car too much.



Last one I had went on my car. Only ski sticker I have on the car. The rest are on the roof box.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah it will always be Sugarloaf/USA for me as well.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2011)

More foundation work:  

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7505510555/more-tower-footings


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 12, 2011)

Whoever came up with the method of shuttling concrete by skidder is a creative genious


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2011)

Update.  They are selling the chairs for those interested:  







I imagine that they will go fast.  They are selling chairs, chair benches, chair gliders, chair swings, etc.  

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/

They also have poured the footings for the summit terminal:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 10, 2011)

From Sugarloaf's Blog, a great photo of the glades being worked on this summer:  






And some pics of the components that have come in for the new lift:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2011)

Things are looking good.  *The latest blog post.*


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 11, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> From Sugarloaf's Blog, a great photo of the glades being worked on this summer:



Looks like the have set a goal of having the traverse trail completed to a mile out by the end of the year.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2011)

*Haul rope arrives* and tips the scales at 21 tons  This compares to 6 tons for Spillway West and 10 tons for Spillway East.  They designed it to be heavier so as to help prevent problems with wind.


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## Nick (Aug 17, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> *Haul rope arrives* and tips the scales at 21 tons  This compares to 6 tons for Spillway West and 10 tons for Spillway East.  They designed it to be heavier so as to help prevent problems with wind.



I'm surprised the rope itself makes that much of a difference, when you consider the weight pole to pole. I would have guessed the lift themselves would be more impacted.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm surprised the rope itself makes that much of a difference, when you consider the weight pole to pole. I would have guessed the lift themselves would be more impacted.


 
A heavier haul rope is less likely to come off the sheave trains.  Theoretically.  They needed a heavier haul rope as it was because this is a quad instead of a double.


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## Nick (Aug 18, 2011)

That makes sense. And obviously the quad vs. double situation as well :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2011)

The bullwheel is in place.  http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2011)

Looking good:


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## bvibert (Sep 12, 2011)

Just saw this picture on FB:






It's heading up the mountain to lift the new motor room into position.


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## speden (Sep 13, 2011)

Looks like they are going to fly the towers into place tomorrow.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2011)

speden said:


> Looks like they are going to fly the towers into place tomorrow.


 

Ahhhhhhh yeah!


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## bvibert (Sep 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Ahhhhhhh yeah!



That's got to be awesome to see in person!


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## K2Trav (Sep 14, 2011)

bvibert said:


> That's got to be awesome to see in person!



YES Its F*c*ing awesome


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## speden (Sep 14, 2011)

Hmmm, looks like the leaves have already started to turn color up there.  You know what that means...


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## BackLoafRiver (Sep 14, 2011)

Sweet video from Sugarloaf's FB page:


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## speden (Sep 14, 2011)

Another report with more video on the installation here:

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/172855/314/Skyline-lift-installed-at-Sugarloaf

Opening day scheduled for Nov. 18th.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 15, 2011)

SunJournal article with 2 videos: http://www.sunjournal.com/franklin/story/1087682


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2011)

Great videos!


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## Nick (Sep 16, 2011)

Curious about why they went to fixed-grip with conveyor vs. detachable. Is the fixed grip faster / slower than detachable and other benefits.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick said:


> Curious about why they went to fixed-grip with conveyor vs. detachable. Is the fixed grip faster / slower than detachable and other benefits.



It's a windy spot so a heavier fixed grip will be able to run more often than a HSQ, adding the conveyor allows them to run it faster.


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## Nick (Sep 16, 2011)

Why would the detach / attach process affect wind performance mid-lift? 

I'm guessing it's somewhere between the speed of a HSQ and a standard fixed grip


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## soposkier (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick said:


> Why would the detach / attach process affect wind performance mid-lift?
> 
> I'm guessing it's somewhere between the speed of a HSQ and a standard fixed grip



My guess would be because the fixed has more chairs=more weight.  Was also wondering if the way that it is fixed to the cable has any thing to do with it.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick said:


> Why would the detach / attach process affect wind performance mid-lift?
> 
> I'm guessing it's somewhere between the speed of a HSQ and a standard fixed grip


 
Couple reasons.  First, the resorts have to be concerned about the chairs coming off the line in the terminals so the wind might impact that (as well as icing).  Second, and related, the grips on an HSQ release and aren't fixed to the line.  Technology is such that now the grips require a lot of force to come off the line, but older models (think Yan) were based on gravity to help hold them shut.  Still, I think there is some risk that chairs could come off in high winds.  Again, that would be pretty extreme, but it has happened.


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## JPTracker (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick said:


> Curious about why they went to fixed-grip with conveyor vs. detachable. Is the fixed grip faster / slower than detachable and other benefits.



Fixed grip can run when you have icing. Detachables can not because the grips can slid.


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## Nick (Sep 16, 2011)

Ah, thanks JP, didn't know that.


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## ceo (Sep 16, 2011)

Detachable lifts aren't any more prone to being blown off the cable than are fixed grips, The nut on a fixed grip actually compresses a spring that provides the grip force, and the spring force on a detachable is the same. I think Sugarloaf's reasons for going with a fixie with a conveyor had more to do with capital and maintenance costs. 

EDIT: Forgot about the icing issue. Thanks, JPTracker.


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## Nick (Sep 16, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Couple reasons.  First, the resorts have to be concerned about the chairs coming off the line in the terminals so the wind might impact that (as well as icing).  Second, and related, the grips on an HSQ release and aren't fixed to the line.  Technology is such that now the grips require a lot of force to come off the line, but older models (think Yan) were based on gravity to help hold them shut.  Still, I think there is some risk that chairs could come off in high winds.  Again, that would be pretty extreme, but it has happened.



How do they actually grip? Is it basically when it is hanging on the line it pinches on, and when it enters the station it lifts it up which releases the pinch on the line? I've always wondered exactly how they work.


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## Skimaine (Sep 16, 2011)

ceo said:


> . . I think Sugarloaf's reasons for going with a fixie with a conveyor had more to do with capital and maintenance costs.
> 
> EDIT: Forgot about the icing issue. Thanks, JPTracker.



Right.  I think cost was probably the biggest factor.  I would toss a few other contributing items in.  They want this lift to be bomb proof (i.e., wind proof) therefore the chairs are heavier and haul rope is heavier and the fixed grip has more chairs closer together (again more weight).  I also think the fixed grip provides all the skiers that the trails served by this lift can handle.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2011)

Nick said:


> How do they actually grip? Is it basically when it is hanging on the line it pinches on, and when it enters the station it lifts it up which releases the pinch on the line? I've always wondered exactly how they work.


 
*Here you go.*


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## ceo (Sep 16, 2011)

If you look at the grip, there's the rollers that it runs on in the station, and a spring-loaded lever of some kind, usually at the end away from the cable. When the chair comes into the station, a slanted rail pushes down on the lever and that opens the grip, and the cable is guided downwards away from it. Some grips (Doppelmayr) have a stable open position and stay open going around the track, others (Poma) have a single position and close again. After loading, the chair is sped up by faster-moving rollers until it reaches line speed, then another slanted rail opens the grip and closes it on the cable (or just closes it, on two-position grips), and off it goes.

The old Sugarloaf and Loon gondolas did work by gravity, but not the way I always assumed. There's a sliding gate with a diagonal slot, and the weight of the carrier on a pin in the slot pulls it sideways and that pulls on the grip jaw. There's an additional small set of rollers that lifts up the carrier when it comes into the station to release the grip. On exit, the carrier just plonks onto the cable and gravity does the rest. The Yan grips were spring-loaded but had a gravity component as well, basically just a V-shaped slot that rested on the cable.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 19, 2011)

*New Spillway lift towers are set.*

Apologize if this is posted in another thread.Flying the towers in at the Loaf.

http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/


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## Telemechanic (Sep 19, 2011)

ceo said:


> Detachable lifts aren't any more prone to being blown off the cable than are fixed grips, The nut on a fixed grip actually compresses a spring that provides the grip force, and the spring force on a detachable is the same. I think Sugarloaf's reasons for going with a fixie with a conveyor had more to do with capital and maintenance costs.
> 
> EDIT: Forgot about the icing issue. Thanks, JPTracker.



Ceo got it right, spring force is spring force and Sugarloaf will save money in the long run with a fixed grip and still get high uphill capacity and a reasonable ride time.

Line speed is the big problem with running detachables in high wind.  Often slowing the lift helps.

Ice on the line:  I've seen a haul rope covered with an inch and a half of ice and the problem wasn't the grip sliding on the rope, the problem is cleaning the ice from the grips.  The ice is easily cleaned from the rope by the bullwheel and to a lesser extent towers with depression or compression assemblies.  The grips must be clean just so they will pass through all the safety grip gauges in the terminal.  These devices gauge the profile of the attached grip, open grip and location of the operating roller making sure the grips are in good condition and attach to the rope properly.  The added thickness of the ice causes nuisance faults of these gauges.  The ice generally doesn't effect the opening and closing of the grip, the spring force is too great.  Sometimes ice causes low grip force readings that improve after a revolution.  These are all problems from ice built up on a stationary lift, not during operation.

Wind sometimes causes the chairs to swing while in the terminal but the risk of the grip derailing is almost nil, I've never heard of it happening.  I've seen chairs swing back way beyond 45 degrees and i still think it was less stressful than four defensive linemen beginner snowboarders attempting to stand up from the chair.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2011)

Whoa!  That was fast!  They are splicing the cable already.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2011)

Some more pictures:


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## wa-loaf (Sep 27, 2011)

I'd like to see pics of how the layout at the summit station has changed. Last I heard there was going to be a lot of regrading done to the area.


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## Newpylong (Sep 27, 2011)

Are the double runners Borvig as well? If they are replacing Spillway now do you think they will replace those with another fixed grip quad possibly?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Are the double runners Borvig as well? If they are replacing Spillway now do you think they will replace those with another fixed grip quad possibly?


 
IIRC yes they were.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I'd like to see pics of how the layout at the summit station has changed. Last I heard there was going to be a lot of regrading done to the area.


 
I would as well.  There are no good pics that I can find.


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## speden (Oct 10, 2011)

Sugarloafers might be interested in the Sugarloaf 2011 annual meeting video:

http://www.wskitv.com/2011/10/10/sugarloaf-annual-meeting-2011-2012-season/

They talk a little bit about future lift plans.  After Skyline, it sounds like next in line is a wind resistant summit T-bar, and then a detached quad King Pine replacement (starting 1000 feet lower than the current one to better serve Brackett), with the current King Pine lift moved over to replace double runner with new wind fencing (probably two years out).  No talk of replacing Timberline other than adding more wind fencing to it.

They seem to be turning some good revenue up there, so hopefully the improvements will keep coming.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2011)

speden said:


> After Skyline, it sounds like next in line is a wind resistant summit T-bar, and then a detached quad King Pine replacement (starting 1000 feet lower than the current one to better serve Brackett),



So I don't have to watch the vid, did they say where the T-bar would go?


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## speden (Oct 10, 2011)

They talk about future lifts at about 26:45 in the video.

The picture is kind of blurry, but the summit T-bar they are thinking of looks to be in the area of Tote Road Ext./Narrow Guage Ext.  He said there used to be a T-bar there back in the Gondola days, called something like the Stably T-bar.  So I guess it would be pretty close to the unloading area for Skyline.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2011)

speden said:


> They talk about future lifts at about 26:45 in the video.
> 
> The picture is kind of blurry, but the summit T-bar they are thinking of looks to be in the area of Tote Road Ext./Narrow Guage Ext.  He said there used to be a T-bar there back in the Gondola days, called something like the Stably T-bar.  So I guess it would be pretty close to the unloading area for Skyline.



I don't remember exactly where the old one started, but it ended right where Timberline does now.


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## EPB (Oct 10, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I don't remember exactly where the old one started, but it ended right where Timberline does now.



This link from teachski.com might help: http://teachski.com/brochures/sugarloaf/sugarloaf72.htm


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> This link from teachski.com might help: http://teachski.com/brochures/sugarloaf/sugarloaf72.htm



Yeah, that's pretty much the line Timberline takes now (just starts lower). It's gonna have to take a new route.


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## jerryg (Oct 11, 2011)

When you reach the top of Timberline, the old t-bar line is to the right and therefore the terminus was further away, and downhill from where the quad ends. This meant that it was fine for Upper Binder, but you had to hike up a little to get to Tote Road, Narrow Gauge, and especially the snowfields.


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## EPB (Oct 11, 2011)

jerryg said:


> When you reach the top of Timberline, the old t-bar line is to the right and therefore the terminus was further away, and downhill from where the quad ends. This meant that it was fine for Upper Binder, but you had to hike up a little to get to Tote Road, Narrow Gauge, and especially the snowfields.



That was my understanding.  From what I recall, the old t-bar line starts on the Spillway side of the current Timberline lift.  It crosses the lift about halfway up the t-bar line and terminates to the skiers left of Timberline's top bull wheel.  It would be an interesting idea.

As a side note, I really hope that the new "double runner" replacement would extend to the top of the existing t-bar.  It would be a shame if it stopped at the new quad and did not offer access to the upper mountain on days that the Skyline chair cannot run.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 11, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> As a side note, I really hope that the new "double runner" replacement would extend to the top of the existing t-bar.  It would be a shame if it stopped at the new quad and did not offer access to the upper mountain on days that the Skyline chair cannot run.



No, that would be bad. The reason the t-bar is still there is that's the only way you can get up that high when the wind blows. If the new double runner went up that high the whole thing would get shut down in the wind, cutting off access to the lower trails with it. Keep double runner with the high side to get to the t-bar base.


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## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

speden said:


> Sugarloafers might be interested in the Sugarloaf 2011 annual meeting video:
> 
> http://www.wskitv.com/2011/10/10/sugarloaf-annual-meeting-2011-2012-season/
> 
> ...



That's too bad about King Pine becoming a detach, though starting lower down will be good for Brackett basin skiing.


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## EPB (Oct 11, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> No, that would be bad. The reason the t-bar is still there is that's the only way you can get up that high when the wind blows. If the new double runner went up that high the whole thing would get shut down in the wind, cutting off access to the lower trails with it. Keep double runner with the high side to get to the t-bar base.



Definitely.  Just to clarify, I meant to say "to the bottom of the existing t-bar", but it looks like you knew what I meant.  

The video got me a little nervous because there was talk about the double runner replacement being shorter than the current King Pine chair.  According to Skilifts.org, the double runner west (the long side) is 4403 feet long and covers 1014 vertical feet.  Meanwhile, the King Pine chair is 3174 feet long, covering 1074 vertical feet. Perhaps I misunderstood what the presenter was saying, but my take was that the replacement would only cover the 3080 feet on 617 vertical covered by the short side.  They would add 100ish pounds of weight to the bottom of the old King Pine quad chairs because the lift would have excess torque, and this would help the chair run in higher wind.

Maybe this is contingent on how well the Skyline chair holds up in the wind, but it would be a shame to lose access to the #3T in my opinion.


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## EPB (Oct 11, 2011)

bvibert said:


> That's too bad about King Pine becoming a detach, though starting lower down will be good for Brackett basin skiing.



Maybe it's because I'm not that opposed to high speed lifts, but I thought that this is a pretty good idea.  If they get an extra 1500 feet out of a high speed quad, it should really help with Brackett access, and the lift would be awfully long as a fixed grip.  Granted, it would increase skier demand in that area (and lift lines) but uphill capacity wouldn't change much.  

It might be a little more difficult to run in questionable wind, too.  All in all, though, I really don't see why it would be a disappointment. It would probably be a pretty exciting change to the casual Sugarloaf-goer.


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## speden (Oct 11, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> No, that would be bad. The reason the t-bar is still there is that's the only way you can get up that high when the wind blows. If the new double runner went up that high the whole thing would get shut down in the wind, cutting off access to the lower trails with it. Keep double runner with the high side to get to the t-bar base.



I think they said last year that if Skyline is as wind resistant as they expect, the T-bar next to it would be removed since it would be redundant.  If the wind is blowing hard enough to shut down Skyline, then they wouldn't want people up there anyway.  I wonder if they will even run the T-bar very much this season.


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## speden (Oct 11, 2011)

bvibert said:


> That's too bad about King Pine becoming a detach, though starting lower down will be good for Brackett basin skiing.



What's wrong with a detach there?  If they lengthen it, the ride time would be pretty long for a fixed grip.  I'm sure with their laser focus on preventing future wind problems, they would design it so that it was very wind resistant, with lots of low towers and wind fencing.


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## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> No, that would be bad. The reason the t-bar is still there is that's the only way you can get up that high when the wind blows. If the new double runner went up that high the whole thing would get shut down in the wind, cutting off access to the lower trails with it. Keep double runner with the high side to get to the t-bar base.



Agreed.  That doesn't sound like a well thought out plan...


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## wa-loaf (Oct 11, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> Definitely.  Just to clarify, I meant to say "to the bottom of the existing t-bar", but it looks like you knew what I meant.
> 
> The video got me a little nervous because there was talk about the double runner replacement being shorter than the current King Pine chair.  According to Skilifts.org, the double runner west (the long side) is 4403 feet long and covers 1014 vertical feet.  Meanwhile, the King Pine chair is 3174 feet long, covering 1074 vertical feet. Perhaps I misunderstood what the presenter was saying, but my take was that the replacement would only cover the 3080 feet on 617 vertical covered by the short side.  They would add 100ish pounds of weight to the bottom of the old King Pine quad chairs because the lift would have excess torque, and this would help the chair run in higher wind.
> 
> Maybe this is contingent on how well the Skyline chair holds up in the wind, but it would be a shame to lose access to the #3T in my opinion.



Hmm, yeah I though you meant you wanted it to go to the top of the t-bar ... so we were on the same page regardless. The last AZ summit was really windy and the Superquad was able to provide access to the t-bar, but the lines there were so long we often took double runner up there.



speden said:


> I think they said last year that if Skyline is as wind resistant as they expect, the T-bar next to it would be removed since it would be redundant.  If the wind is blowing hard enough to shut down Skyline, then they wouldn't want people up there anyway.  I wonder if they will even run the T-bar very much this season.



I would be sorry to loose that, but if Skyline is as good in the wind as they say and the t-bar gets moved up higher, that would be pretty decent plan. And if the t-bar gets moved, that eliminates the need for the longer double runner.


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## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> Maybe it's because I'm not that opposed to high speed lifts, but I thought that this is a pretty good idea.  If they get an extra 1500 feet out of a high speed quad, it should really help with Brackett access, and the lift would be awfully long as a fixed grip.  Granted, it would increase skier demand in that area (and lift lines) but uphill capacity wouldn't change much.
> 
> It might be a little more difficult to run in questionable wind, too.  All in all, though, I really don't see why it would be a disappointment. It would probably be a pretty exciting change to the casual Sugarloaf-goer.





speden said:


> What's wrong with a detach there?  If they lengthen it, the ride time would be pretty long for a fixed grip.  I'm sure with their laser focus on preventing future wind problems, they would design it so that it was very wind resistant, with lots of low towers and wind fencing.



Just not a fan of high speeds.  I like the vibe over there as it is too.  With a longer length it does make sense though.

I'm sure most will welcome the change, and I'll be in the minority.


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## EPB (Oct 11, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Just not a fan of high speeds.  I like the vibe over there as it is too.  With a longer length it does make sense though.
> 
> I'm sure most will welcome the change, and I'll be in the minority.



Understandable for sure.  When it comes to expansion/upgrades, there's always such a fine line between wanting the best for the area to sustain its business and wanting the best for my personal experience.  Always an interesting dichotomy.

As to wa-loaf's point, it would be great if Skyline is that good.  We'll have to see how this season goes.  It will be interesting to see how the new lift technology fares against a beast of a mountain.  It certainly looks like Sugarloaf is doing everything they can to wind-proof this lift.  My hat's off at this point.


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## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

speden said:


> I think they said last year that if Skyline is as wind resistant as they expect, the T-bar next to it would be removed since it would be redundant.  If the wind is blowing hard enough to shut down Skyline, then they wouldn't want people up there anyway.  I wonder if they will even run the T-bar very much this season.



Hopefully Skyline is as wind proof as they're expecting.  If it is then the plans make sense.


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## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> Understandable for sure.  When it comes to expansion/upgrades, there's always such a fine line between wanting the best for the area to sustain its business and wanting the best for my personal experience.  Always an interesting dichotomy.



Yeah, it's something that I always struggle with.  I'm sure the end result will be fine, and it's certainly not going to keep me from visiting.  I just wish I lived closer.


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## lmgrnjeep (Oct 11, 2011)

through the grape vine i have heard when they replace the king pine lift the lift  will hug the skiers left trees just like they have done with Skyline..... They will windfence the top of widowmaker and haulback so it can be somewhat protected. Ask they said they will move the lift down about 1000 feet which means they would have to make cross haul very open/ non existent so there isnt conjestion coming from kingpine bowl, whiffletree quad and brackett.... They will need it to be high speed to get all the traffic that burnt mountain will bring to it. The loaf is in a great place right now with the new lift, new terrain, and great people we are in for one heck of a winter... and according to accuweather we are going to get pummled with snow


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## ceo (Oct 11, 2011)

The old Timberline T-bar went up between Tote Road Extension and the current Timberline Quad liftline, starting roughly where the latter intersects Spillway Crosscut. You can see the liftline pretty clearly on Google Maps. It was diesel-powered; I was once on it when it ran out of fuel. In the video they described it as a Stadeli; I think the rest of Sugarloaf's T-bars were Constams.  When I was a kid I loved to loop Binder Extension on it. 

I wonder how long it's been since a major North American resort installed a new T-bar.


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## Tooth (Oct 11, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> through the grape vine i have heard when they replace the king pine lift the lift  will hug the skiers left trees just like they have done with Skyline..... They will windfence the top of widowmaker and haulback so it can be somewhat protected. Ask they said they will move the lift down about 1000 feet which means they would have to make cross haul very open/ non existent so there isnt conjestion coming from kingpine bowl, whiffletree quad and brackett.... They will need it to be high speed to get all the traffic that burnt mountain will bring to it. The loaf is in a great place right now with the new lift, new terrain, and great people we are in for one heck of a winter... and according to accuweather we are going to get pummled with snow



Well said. It is a very exciting time to be a Sugarloafer. They seem to be at the cusp of something very special. Its very early in the whole 2020 vision yet the moves they are making are substantial. I have seen the AZ group at the loaf for years. Seems like a great bunch of people. Always have smiles on their faces.


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