# I want to ski better damn it!  How can I?



## Bostonian (Mar 6, 2012)

Okay... So here is the deal.   I wouldn't say I am the chronic intermediate, since I can make my way down diamonds and etc.  I can ski the crud, the groomed and a pow day is nice. Yet I can tell my form is off and I feel that I can do better.  My goal for next year is to try to ski the bumps, or the trees... But with limited time (family, work and etc), I feel like I just never get to that next level.  I drool at some of the TR's where people are hitting the woods and pow stashes, I watch in awe some of the bump videos, and picture myself being able to do something more than just what I am now.  What can I do to make myself better? I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better, but I have also read... ski more you will will get better too.  I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!


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## gmcunni (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!



welcome to the club!


my advice would be to get some "expert" lessons.  go to a reputable mountain and sign up for the advanced GROUP lessons.  i bet you find the class empty and you end up with a private or at worst semi-private lesson for the cheap price of a group.   this has worked for me several times.  i sign up and for $40 i got private lesson on more than 1 occasion.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> Okay... So here is the deal.   I wouldn't say I am the chronic intermediate, since I can make my way down diamonds and etc.  I can ski the crud, the groomed and a pow day is nice. Yet I can tell my form is off and I feel that I can do better.  My goal for next year is to try to ski the bumps, or the trees... But with limited time (family, work and etc), I feel like I just never get to that next level.  I drool at some of the TR's where people are hitting the woods and pow stashes, I watch in awe some of the bump videos, and picture myself being able to do something more than just what I am now.  What can I do to make myself better? I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better, but I have also read... ski more you will will get better too.  I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!



I am in the same spot that you are, and it's frustratingly simple but the only solution is to ski more.  I did take some lessons, and they don't do much good if you can't get out on a regular basis and practice.

A few years ago (before my son was born), I was around 30 days a year, and I could see substantial progress.  Last year I got 6 days, and this year I'm at 7 so far, and I can say without a doubt that my abilities are regressing.


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2012)

As you said - ski more you will will get better. Also hook up with people who will push you a little out of your comfort zone. Not dangerously so but a little out of it.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Mar 6, 2012)

i'd look into one of the weekend 'camps/clinics'....i wouldnt recommend going out with people who are better than you..just 'cause they can ski good, doesnt mean they know  how to teach....


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## hammer (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> Okay... So here is the deal.   I wouldn't say I am the chronic intermediate, since I can make my way down diamonds and etc.  I can ski the crud, the groomed and a pow day is nice. Yet I can tell my form is off and I feel that I can do better.  My goal for next year is to try to ski the bumps, or the trees... But with limited time (family, work and etc), I feel like I just never get to that next level.  I drool at some of the TR's where people are hitting the woods and pow stashes, I watch in awe some of the bump videos, and picture myself being able to do something more than just what I am now.  What can I do to make myself better? I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better, but I have also read... ski more you will will get better too.  I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!


Felt the same way after my day at Magic...was hard to see people slaying the mountain when I couldn't get though more than a few turns at a time in the chopped up powder.

I've posted threads similar to this in the past and it usually boils down to the following


Ski more
Ski with others better than you
Get in lessons (on occasion)


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## makimono (Mar 6, 2012)

Besides skiing a lot obviously...

Lessons aren't just for beginners, advanced lessons can really help pinpoint the fine details for big improvements, weighting angulation proper pole plants etc.

But I think the fastest way to improve is always try to ski with people better than yourself. Not so much that you're flailing but enough that you're skiing a little faster, ,a little steeper, a little gnarlier than you might otherwise.


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## drjeff (Mar 6, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i'd look into one of the weekend 'camps/clinics'....i wouldnt recommend going out with people who are better than you..just 'cause they can ski good, doesnt mean they know  how to teach....



Exactly!  Very often taking it to the next level will often involve a bit of going back to work on some core fundamentals that might be currently missing from your repetoire, fundamentals that may very well be what is holding you back.  This is where an instructor becomes handy for most folks

Just following someone who is better than you, unless they have the ability to first diagnose what you may, or may not be doing wrong, and then be able to articulate what you need to do, in a way that connects with your learning style, might very well be pointless and just further reinforcing what is currently holding you back.

Secondly, you mentioned the desire to get better in both bumps and trees.  Even though both of those things tend to involve shorter radius turns, try and focus on just one at a time as your progressing, as what it takes to rip both bumps and trees does have some distinct differences, and trying to focus on too much at once very often becomes problematic for most folks.


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## 2knees (Mar 6, 2012)

I agree with the smelly guy.  ski with people better then you. 


then again, i ski with people far better then me all the time and i'm not out there killing it either but still, good advice.


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> Okay... So here is the deal.   I wouldn't say I am the chronic intermediate, since I can make my way down diamonds and etc.  I can ski the crud, the groomed and a pow day is nice. Yet I can tell my form is off and I feel that I can do better.  My goal for next year is to try to ski the bumps, or the trees... But with limited time (family, work and etc), I feel like I just never get to that next level.  I drool at some of the TR's where people are hitting the woods and pow stashes, I watch in awe some of the bump videos, and picture myself being able to do something more than just what I am now.  What can I do to make myself better? I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better, but I have also read... ski more you will will get better too.  I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!



So as you see here - yes what you said.


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2012)

2knees said:


> I agree with the smelly guy.  ski with people better then you.
> 
> 
> then again, i ski with people far better then me all the time and i'm not out there killing it either but still, good advice.



Agree with all this. Mileage is important, but just reinforcing old bad habits won't make you better.

I try to ski with 180 at least twice a year for a few hours each time. Just skiing, no questions or advice.
I used to get intimidated, but now I can keep up and hold my own. Getting a few "nice turns there" feedback from him makes my whole ski season.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 6, 2012)

Lessons and skiing with people better than you are fine. But really you just need to ski more. I'm far from the best bumper, but I think I can ski them pretty well. I only learned by throwing myself down bump course repeatedly when I was younger. I still pick up new things just while out skiing and observing others. Maybe it's just me, but I think I have enough sense of whats going on with my skis and body that if I see someone skiing really well I can put myself in their "boots" and emulate them. Sometimes it works and I have a break through.


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## crank (Mar 6, 2012)

#1 is mileage.

Skiing with better skiers and or lessons will both help but without mileage you will not see significant improvement.

Also, and I may take some heat for this one, I feel it is important to challenge yourself, ski over your head.  You aren't going to get god enough to ski the the whole mountain without skiing the whole mountain.  I have seen many a skier with perfect looking form on a groomer fall to pieces in more difficult natural terrain.


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## speden (Mar 6, 2012)

One thing you could try for learning bumps is to ski with shorter skis than you normally use.  That would make it easier to react to the quick pace until you get the rhythm of it.  I've been trying to ski the bumps a little this year and I can tell that the lack of quickness of my skis is slowing my progress.

You could also seek out uneven snow and the little jumps you often find along the sides of groomer trails.  Hitting stuff like that would improve your balance and probably help in the bumps and trees.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2012)

crank said:


> I have seen many a skier with perfect looking form on a groomer fall to pieces in more difficult natural terrain.



Why didn't you say hi?


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## Bostonian (Mar 6, 2012)

I just want to thank everyone for their comments.  I will definitely take a lesson to improve on some core areas.  Also in terms of skiing the bumps, are 178's too long of a ski to hit them (that's what I am skiing on right now)?   I hope to get out a few more times this year, but overall, I just got to make more time for skiing it sounds


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## Puck it (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> I just want to thank everyone for their comments. I will definitely take a lesson to improve on some core areas. Also in terms of skiing the bumps, are 178's too long of a ski to hit them (that's what I am skiing on right now)? I hope to get out a few more times this year, but overall, I just got to make more time for skiing it sounds


 
Come on up to Cannon and ski with a few of us!!!! Just PM one of us regulars. We are always willing to ski with newbies. Just pack the beer!!!!!

BTW, my Palmers are 179cm and are awesome in the bumps. Hell, now that I think of it, I use to ski 215cm in the bumps years ago.


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## 2knees (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> I just want to thank everyone for their comments.  I will definitely take a lesson to improve on some core areas.  Also in terms of skiing the bumps, are 178's too long of a ski to hit them (that's what I am skiing on right now)?   I hope to get out a few more times this year, but overall, I just got to make more time for skiing it sounds



178 is fine.   spring is bump season.  what seemed so difficult in january with frozen bumps suddenly becomes easy with smashed potato moguls.  go out on a sunny warm day, ski them as fast as you can and dont worry about crashing, it wont hurt.


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## legalskier (Mar 6, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Exactly!  Very often taking it to the next level will often involve a bit of going back to work on some *core fundamentals* that might be currently missing from your repetoire, fundamentals that may very well be what is holding you back.  This is where an instructor becomes handy for most folks
> 
> Just following someone who is better than you, unless they have the ability to first diagnose what you may, or may not be doing wrong, and then be able to articulate what you need to do, in a way that connects with your learning style, *might very well be pointless and just further reinforcing what is currently holding you back*.



Couldn't have said it better myself. 
I was self-taught many years ago on straight skis, with help from the instruction tips I would find every month in Ski and Skiing magazines. I also learned by trying to keep up with my older brothers and their friends. I thought I knew it all. Then, one fine day, shaped skis were created and swept the industry.  I had to go back to the drawing board, learn new movements, and forget the old muscle memory. Lessons really helped me understand the new way of skiing. 
One suggestion if you take a lesson- tell them exactly where you're at, and what your goals are. Ask for an instructor who trains the other instructors- these are usually full timers and have those shiny gold or silver pins. Many instructors are very good, but if your goal is to get to the top then you want a top instructor. After all, you're paying good money. You may have to call in advance to reserve a time slot with one. After the lesson keep practicing the tips/drills they gave you.
As far as bumps go, don't go straight to the top of the mountain. Look for an easy blue run with a bump field. I think it's crucial to learn how to control your speed- going too fast is counterproductive. Follow behind good bump skiers to find their line and learn how to see a line. There's no one way to ski bumps, there are many legit approaches- so don't get discouraged if you can't rip a zipperline right away. When you master the blue bumps, move up to an easy single black. Re: your 178s- it depends on your physical size- but keep in mind, the only part of the ski that matters when you're pivoting off the top of a bump is the part that's underfoot, sort of like a fulcrum. The skis pivot easily in that position. And never lean back.
Trees- again, start out easy. Find a blue run with widely spaced trees. When you feel comfortable, look for tighter trees on the same run. When you master that, move up to a single black with easy trees, then onto tighter trees.
Build your confidence/ability on easier terrain, then take it up a notch. Worked for me.


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## Greg (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> I just want to thank everyone for their comments.  I will definitely take a lesson to improve on some core areas.  Also in terms of skiing the bumps, are 178's too long of a ski to hit them (that's what I am skiing on right now)?   I hope to get out a few more times this year, but overall, I just got to make more time for skiing it sounds



Not too long. Practice short snappy rotary turns on the flats while maintaining shin pressure at the front of your boot. If you can't turn 'em quick on the groomers, you ain't gonna in the bumps.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2012)

Puck it said:


> BTW, my Palmers are 179cm and are awesome in the bumps.



This warrants a smiley.  :grin:


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## Greg (Mar 6, 2012)

2knees said:


> go out on a sunny warm day, ski them as fast as you can and *dont worry about crashing, it wont hurt*.



This might be some of the best mogul advice I've ever read. SO true.


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## Puck it (Mar 6, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> This warrants a smiley. :grin:


 

One thing to remember, double metal!!! So do not get in the back seat, they will throw you.  Forward pressure!!!


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2012)

Puck it said:


> One thing to remember, double metal!!! So do not get in the back seat, they will throw you.  Forward pressure!!!



Expected delivery Thurs 3/8.  Drop them off at the shop to get waxed and the bindings adjusted, and they'll be good to go for the spring snow at Whiteface!


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## mriceyman (Mar 6, 2012)

Practice... start on a bump run and cut it into sections. Do one section at a time. It took me 10 years to become comfortable on bumps and in trees. In fact my best tree skiing experience just happened last week.


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## drjeff (Mar 6, 2012)

Puck it said:


> One thing to remember, double metal!!! So do not get in the back seat, they will throw you.  Forward pressure!!!



One of my kids regular instructors calls being in the back seat "skiing on the potty"    I now have 2 kids cruising around the hill either asking me or my wife if any of us were "in the potty" on the  last run.  It can get some interesting looks when asked in a crowded liftline  :lol:


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## legalskier (Mar 6, 2012)

drjeff said:


> One of my kids regular instructors calls being in the back seat "skiing on the potty"    I now have 2 kids cruising around the hill either asking me or my wife if any of us were "in the potty" on the  last run.  It can get some interesting looks when asked in a crowded liftline  :lol:



I've heard a different version- "Ski like you hump, not like you dump"


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 6, 2012)

Best deal I found for lessons were the specialty programs at Killington:
http://www.killington.com/winter/lessons/specialty_programs 
They include the price of a lift ticket and are a tremendous value. I did the race weekend with them and thought it was great.


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## Abubob (Mar 6, 2012)

Ski with BLESS.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=106788&page=9


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> *I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better*



THIS.  

At the level you're describing (getting to the next level after stagnation), lesson(s) would be greatly helpful.



gmcunni said:


> my advice would be to get some "expert" lessons. * go to a reputable mountain and sign up for the advanced GROUP lessons.  i bet you find the class empty and you end up with a private or at worst semi-private lesson for the cheap price of a group.*



AND THIS.  

Maybe not empty, but it wouldn't be unusual to have only 3 or 4 (still small) in a group.


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## billski (Mar 6, 2012)

I see a lot of dead on advice.  Here is how I amalgamated all of this into something that works for me.

1. Take a lesson.  Tell them what you'd like to accomplish.  S/he may find thing more fundamental that need to be fixed.  Check your ego.  Private or virtually private work best.    Get your head knowledge first, then work on it.

2.  Ask your instructor for 1,2 or 3 take-aways you can focus on.  Too much just gets confusing.  

3. Bigger is not better. Training can be done anywhere: no need to pay big bucks on a skill that can be practiced anywhere.  National teams do this often.  Going smaller can also get  you to a closer mountain more often.

4.  Break up your ski day.  Practice half day, have fun and let it go the second half.

5.  Following those more skilled will be challenging, but may not necessarily make you better.  I've followed higher skilled skiers for years, to some benefit. 

6. Friends don't teach friends to ski.  Corollary: Men never, never, never should teach their S.O. to ski. Unless you are interested in ending the relationship.

Go get 'em!


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## hammer (Mar 6, 2012)

Is it worth it to take a lesson at this point in the season?


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## gmcunni (Mar 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> Is it worth it to take a lesson at this point in the season?



i'd go with YES but it depends on what you want to learn.  this would be a great time to get some bump instruction as the conditions soften it makes for fun and easier skiing.

same applies to carving (at least the way i do it), soft snow is fun to ski in, you can work on technique with less fear of failure/falling and then carry the knowledge into next season.


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## wtcobb (Mar 6, 2012)

In addition to skiing with better skiers and forcing yourself into different terrain, ask for their advice. I know the common "Skiers don't teach their friends to ski," but you're not asking for a full lesson.

I ski with a good group and feel plenty comfortable on almost anything we hit, but I'm still towards the back of the group most of the time. I occasionally ask one person to hang back and check my form - how would they hit the same line, and did I do it as they would?

Getting feedback like this along the way while challenging myself to keep up definitely helped me. Again, it's not a constant thing, but 2-3 tips per day can make a big difference.


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## x10003q (Mar 6, 2012)

In addition to all the good advice in the thread - make sure you are physically able to handle what you want to accomplish. Lessons and equipment can not overcome being out of shape (only you know how fit you are). The less skiing I do in a season means more gym time during ski season.

My biggest improvements came when I skied with a bunch of fast, agressive guys when I was in college. These guys were masters at picking lines anywhere on the mountain and were pretty fearless. I just had to follow and try to keep up. A couple of questions here and there and many hours eyeballing their technique made me much happier with my skiing.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 6, 2012)

Core strength - you need it or you won't last long in the bumps.  You need mileage on skis to help get this.  And 20 days on fast groomers won't help, you need bump mileage.

I finally 'got' bumps on a nice spring day when there was nothing but soft bumps all around and I was determined to have fun like everyone else.  I just forced myself down bump fields (they are all over green and blue trails on a spring aft'noon), every run I'd try to adjust my stance/balance/weighting (much different feel than a groomer) until I finally figured it out, took that one day of hard work to get the basic, a lifetime of refinement haha.  IMO, getting that right is most important.  Also...can you separate you lower/upper body?  If not, gotta get that going on groomer turns first.

Watching others is great for technique, but I cannot follow others when I'm trying to ski, cannot lose focus on bumps in front of me or I wipe out.  So I have usually sorta crazy lines lol.  I look for soft places to land and turn, which is often not where everyone else turns...so having 155 SL skis means I can make my own lines on better snow.  

Good luck...cannot emphasize enough how time/practice on the snow is most important.


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## 2knees (Mar 6, 2012)

This

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/new-hartford-ct/06057/month/2208322?view=table


will lead to this








which leads to this

*tWo KnEe$*






*madriverjack lettin' the gold flow*






*bvibert down!*






Acton is probably 2 hours from us.  Pick a day and come get some.  It's easy soft and fun.  I cant promise you'll get better but you'll leave with a huge effin smile on your face.


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## MadMadWorld (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> I just want to thank everyone for their comments.  I will definitely take a lesson to improve on some core areas.  Also in terms of skiing the bumps, are 178's too long of a ski to hit them (that's what I am skiing on right now)?   I hope to get out a few more times this year, but overall, I just got to make more time for skiing it sounds



Length is not as important as the flex of the ski. A nice soft or rockered ski is going to be a lot more forgiving in the bumps than a stiff racing ski. And forgiveness is probably the most important thing for someone learning the bumps.

A great drill to practice is "dolphin turns"! You might get a few weird looks and stares but if you practice this consistently, you will be well ready to ski moguls before you can say Johnny Moseley! There is a few good YouTube videos out there that give a good demo...check it out


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## oakapple (Mar 6, 2012)

wtcobb said:


> In addition to skiing with better skiers and forcing yourself into different terrain, ask for their advice. I know the common "Skiers don't teach their friends to ski," but you're not asking for a full lesson.


There's nothing wrong with asking a friend or companion for informal advice. That's done all the time, in all sports. Where it fails, is if there is a vast disparity in abilities, with the ultimate example being an expert skier trying to teach a complete newbie.


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## drjeff (Mar 6, 2012)

oakapple said:


> There's nothing wrong with asking a friend or companion for informal advice. That's done all the time, in all sports. Where it fails, is if there is a vast disparity in abilities, with the ultimate example being an expert skier trying to teach a complete newbie.



The true mark of a good instructor isn't just the ability to realize what the student is/isn't doing,  but being able to realize what the student is/isn't doing and then articulate to them, IN A WAY THAT THEY CAN GRASP, what they need to do to improve.  Most good instructors will have 3 or 4 ways to explain the concept that they're trying to convey, which gives them the ability to adapt to the learning styles of many different skier types.

Many good skiers might be able to see what the person is doing,  but might only have the ability to convey it to the "student" in a way that just they themselves understand.  That is great if the student and the "instructor" have the same learning style.  Not so great if they have different learning styles


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## MadMadWorld (Mar 6, 2012)

oakapple said:


> There's nothing wrong with asking a friend or companion for informal advice. That's done all the time, in all sports. Where it fails, is if there is a vast disparity in abilities, with the ultimate example being an expert skier trying to teach a complete newbie.



I take it as a compliment any time someone asks me if I can critique and I am always happy to offer up advice. But I have also learned to keep my mouth quiet when I don't get asked!


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## bigbog (Mar 6, 2012)

Ditto on the lessons...
Aside from little drills to _change_ your normal motions/balance...and I know the amount of whining that goes on between wanna-be instructors over on Epicski, but in their Skiing Analysis forum...you can catch a few of the better skiers talking here and there about distinct issues to be used as well as avoided.  If you can begin to integrate those positive moves in with your skiing...you can feel the difference, often immediately.   _Back in the old days..:lol:._ you'd see quite a few turns in the old DVDs/VHS tapes...to listen to and watch.   Nowadays it's a couple jumps, a couple hundred yards of straightlining and then you're into pulling the ripcord..or stretching out the basejumping costume...(*Although I love most all of that bc stuff...all EXCEPT plowing through untracked with snowcats)


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## goldsbar (Mar 6, 2012)

READ.  And not on the Internet.  Lemasters is good, Harb is good, I'm sure there are other good books.

Take lessons after reading so you understand what they're trying to do.  Lessons vary by instructor.  Some can actually be detrimental.  My best lesson ever was an all day group lesson at Jackson Hole.  I found the smattering of hour long lessons I took over the years to be somewhat of a waste.  YMMV.

Don't just cruise.  If you're on an easy runout, practice carving.  If that's easy, practice one footed carving which is never that easy.  Seek out "ice" and practice counter until you can grip like you're on perfect groomers.  You'll actually come to appreciate the predictability of ice.


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## powhunter (Mar 6, 2012)

2knees said:


> go out on a sunny warm day, ski them as fast as you can and dont worry about crashing, it wont hurt.



Also a safety meeting will give you a lot of courage


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## Bumpsis (Mar 6, 2012)

Bostonian said:


> Okay... So here is the deal.   I wouldn't say I am the chronic intermediate, since I can make my way down diamonds and etc.  I can ski the crud, the groomed and a pow day is nice. Yet I can tell my form is off and I feel that I can do better.  My goal for next year is to try to ski the bumps, or the trees... But with limited time (family, work and etc), I feel like I just never get to that next level.  I drool at some of the TR's where people are hitting the woods and pow stashes, I watch in awe some of the bump videos, and picture myself being able to do something more than just what I am now.  What can I do to make myself better? I am tempted to bite the bullet and take a lesson to get better, but I have also read... ski more you will will get better too.  I am a chronic upper intermediate skier and I want more!



What I found to be the quickest way of becoming better was to ski more challenging terrain. I've noticed that every time I went out west and really challanged myself with steeps, moguls, crud, even if I did not take a lesson ( which I would, usually), when I came back east, I was a better skier.  Yeah, you can practice some skill drills at any old slope, but you'll always be limited by what the tarrain has to offer. You can't learn to ski steeps by  just putting in the milage at, say, Sunapee. In order to improve, ski more difficult terrain. The skills and confidence you get from that will translate into being an overall better skier.

Even with limited time, it is quiote doable to do a quantum jump in skills and confidence, but you trully have to commit to your goal.
I don't know if this still exists, but Taos used to have something like a ski boot camp for exactly skiers like you. Proficient enough to manage a tougher terrain but not really being able to master it. This program was a 5 or 6 day in duration, sort of like a small group lesson one day after another but more like a boot camp. I read about this in one of the ski magazines. It sounded really good. Considering that this was at a kick ass mountain like Taos, proigress was assured.
So even if you can't do that (go for a week long trip out west), just focus on getting better at skiing bumps. Spring skiing is best for that.  Absorb all you can (vids, instructional DVDs, watch good skiers) and just try, try, try.


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## Cornhead (Mar 6, 2012)

Great advice Bumpsis. The program at Taos is called "Snowsports Week". I've skied in New Mexico two of the last four seasons, Taos, Santa Fe, and Pajarito. I was contemplating a trip this year, but chose to ski VT instead. I was going to participate in the Snowsports Week if I did go, for several reasons.

1) I think a little instruction would do me good.

2) Taos is a kick ass mountain as you said. I've never been anywhere else where there's a sign at the lift saying "Don't worry, we have easier ways down the mountain. " as Al's run stares you in the face. I wouldn't mind being with someone knowledgeable while poking around. Their terrain is 51% expert.

3) I'd be there solo. You ski with the same people all week. I'm sure there's a sense of comaraderie amongst the group. Might even make some friends. I'm looking for one in Utah, I've got one in New Mexico, soon to have one in Colorado.:wink:

As you said, there's no better way to expand your comfort zone, than to challenge yourself and ski terrain that pushes your personal envelope, whatever level you may be, and ski as much as possible.


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## riverc0il (Mar 6, 2012)

Lessons are a great place to start. But unless you are ready to commit to improvement (and really commit) then you might as well not bother. A lot of people might disagree with me on that. But if you aren't ready to bust your butt and get at least 30 days on the snow and dedicate a good portion of those days to working on technique improvements with intent, you're just wasting your money.

You need lessons to dial in the fundamentals. Square up those shoulders, get your weight forward, get more aggressive with driving downhill, angulation on the groomers, etc. Once you have the basics, it is all about time on the hill. But until you have the basics, you aren't going any where. So get the basics and then ski. A lot.

Skiing with others that are better than you is great. But really what you need to do is watch good skiers and try to copy them. When something feels really good, you need to work on getting that feeling dialed in more and more. 

So, yea... lessons for fundamentals, watch good skiers and imitate, and ski a LOT with intent to become better. If you commit, you'll get there. But you have to want it.

It doesn't take long to get good. 10 years ago, I was just starting to attempt skiing bumps and powder. I hit my prime 3 years ago or so. Essentially, I went from never skied a bump to being able to ski anything in about 6-7 years. It doesn't take much, you just have to have the fundamentals, commit, and get out there and go for it. When I first started skiing with from_the_NEK, I couldn't believe how long the dude had been skiing and he was already killing it. A lot of dudes on this forum stepped up their game in such a short amount of time. Pretty cool stuff.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Lessons are a great place to start. But unless you are ready to commit to improvement (and really commit) then you might as well not bother. A lot of people might disagree with me on that. But if you aren't ready to bust your butt and get at least 30 days on the snow and dedicate a good portion of those days to working on technique improvements with intent, you're just wasting your money.
> 
> You need lessons to dial in the fundamentals. Square up those shoulders, get your weight forward, get more aggressive with driving downhill, angulation on the groomers, etc. Once you have the basics, it is all about time on the hill. But until you have the basics, you aren't going any where. So get the basics and then ski. A lot.
> 
> ...



this.

Lessons for fundamentals.  Ski 30+ days a year to get to the next level.  

IMO, you could spend 15 days a year taking lessons from Bode Miller and you won't improve as much as you will skiing 30 days a winter and watching high level skiers and trying to copy what they do.  

In specific regards to bumps, watch a good bumper and try to copy what they do.  Get in a good bump stance and let it rip.  At the start, you'll make it two bumps, get thrown off balance and crash.  Don't give up.  Eventually you start to figure out where you are screwing up and start creating muscle memory.  You make it 5 bumps before crashing, then 10; so on and so forth.  

I haven't taken a lesson since the 4th grade.  I'm not as good of a skier as half the people in this thread, but I can ski with all of them competently. I got there by spending hundreds and hundreds of days on snow over 29 years of skiing.

Other than that, make sure you've got decent equipment (especially boots) and make sure you are in decent shape.  Physical fitness is the single most important aspect of my skiing these days.


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## riverc0il (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not as good of a skier as half the people in this thread, but I can ski with all of them competently.


This is the biggest piece of bull shit you've ever wrote. No need to feign modesty :lol:

One other thing I forgot is plain old physical fitness. I attribute part of my technical decline in recent years to putting on weight and not running. Building up your leg muscles, core strength, and cardio will help you more easily attune your body and mind to technical challenges.


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## mondeo (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> 178 is fine.   spring is bump season.  what seemed so difficult in january with frozen bumps suddenly becomes easy with smashed potato moguls.  go out on a sunny warm day, ski them as fast as you can and dont worry about crashing, it wont hurt.



My wrist begs to differ.


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## mondeo (Mar 7, 2012)

No one's mentioned video yet?

Video.


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## hammer (Mar 7, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Lessons are a great place to start. But unless you are ready to commit to improvement (and really commit) then you might as well not bother. A lot of people might disagree with me on that. But if you aren't ready to bust your butt and get at least 30 days on the snow and dedicate a good portion of those days to working on technique improvements with intent, you're just wasting your money.
> 
> You need lessons to dial in the fundamentals. Square up those shoulders, get your weight forward, get more aggressive with driving downhill, angulation on the groomers, etc. Once you have the basics, it is all about time on the hill. But until you have the basics, you aren't going any where. So get the basics and then ski. A lot.
> 
> ...



What you are saying does make sense, but I think I speak for many in saying that unfortunately it's difficult to commit to that much time on the slopes each season.  I've had to manage my expectations as a result.

I also started skiing at a later age (late 30s) and while there are those who have progressed after a later start there has to be an advantage of learning at an earlier age.  The example I always mention is my now 19YO son...he gets out just a few times a year but I'm still struggling to keep up with him.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> What you are saying does make sense, but I think I speak for many in saying that unfortunately it's difficult to commit to that much time on the slopes each season.  I've had to manage my expectations as a result.
> 
> I also started skiing at a later age (late 30s) and while there are those who have progressed after a later start there has to be an advantage of learning at an earlier age.  The example I always mention is my now 19YO son...he gets out just a few times a year but I'm still struggling to keep up with him.



I started at 5yo.  Didn't start in bumps until after college, but by then I had the fundamentals and it just took perseverance, watching others and experimentation, also needed to ditch my pride - you fall alot in the beginning.


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## gmcunni (Mar 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> What you are saying does make sense, but I think I speak for many in saying that unfortunately it's difficult to commit to that much time on the slopes each season.  I've had to manage my expectations as a result.



I'm with you hammer - just because you can't put in 30 days (even 20) doesn't mean you can't improve. YES, more skiing = faster results (assuming you know what to be working on, hence the multiple suggestions for lessons) but even at 10 days a year you can improve your skiing technique year after year if you work on it.





> The example I always mention is my now 19YO son...he gets out just a few times a year but I'm still struggling to keep up with him.


LOL - my 18YO son constantly tells me he's a better skier than me, i disagree. one of us is delusional.


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## drjeff (Mar 7, 2012)

mondeo said:


> No one's mentioned video yet?
> 
> Video.



I have this love/hate relationship with video.  I have found that there are sometimes when I have this mental image of what the mechanics of my turn looks like, and then the video DOESN'T back up what I think I'm doing that it can actually mess me up more than it can help me. Basically it will cause me to go from thinking about 1 or 2 basic fundamental things to thinking about far more fundamental things as i'm making my turns,  and for me that's NOT a good thing.  

Other times, it is a help as a way to reinforce that what i've been trying to work on IS working.  That's just my own experience though.  In cases liek that it will allow me to just keep focusing on those 1 or 2 things i'm working on, while just letting the other 100 or so things that also need to occur just happen naturally


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> LOL - my 18YO son constantly tells me he's a better skier than me, i disagree. one of us is delusional.



Jake's not as good as you..................yet


If his Spring Semester class attendance vs. ski slope attendance at UVM is anything like mine was when I was a student there, plan on this being the last season you are better than him.  :lol:


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## crank (Mar 7, 2012)

lol.  I have an 18-year old son at Champlain College.  He beats me down most runs but he is not yet better than I am on really sketchy stuff or bumps.  That will not last for long though.  

Lime WM said, "One day you kids will ski as good as you.  Just for one day and then they'll be better."


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## St. Bear (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> I'm with you hammer - just because you can't put in 30 days (even 20) doesn't mean you can't improve. YES, more skiing = faster results (assuming you know what to be working on, hence the multiple suggestions for lessons) but even at 10 days a year you can improve your skiing technique year after year if you work on it.



I'm not sure I agree with this.  Like I said in my earlier post, I was under 10 days last year, and this year I should be just over 10 days.  Conceptually I know what I want to do.  Hell, I was starting to do it a few years ago.  However physically it's difficult because I don't have the muscle memory or confidence to make the right movements in dynamic situations (bumps, trees, etc.), and that can only come with time.

As far as fitness, obviously it's important.  However, there is no exercise that will get you prepared for skiing as well as skiing will.  I consider myself a very fit person.  I go to the gym, run on a regular basis, and play rugby during the spring and fall, but I can't ski bell to bell like I used to.


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## drjeff (Mar 7, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this.  Like I said in my earlier post, I was under 10 days last year, and this year I should be just over 10 days.  Conceptually I know what I want to do.  Hell, I was starting to do it a few years ago.  However physically it's difficult because I don't have the muscle memory or confidence to make the right movements in dynamic situations (bumps, trees, etc.), and that can only come with time.
> 
> As far as fitness, obviously it's important.  However, there is no exercise that will get you prepared for skiing as well as skiing will.  I consider myself a very fit person.  I go to the gym, run on a regular basis, and play rugby during the spring and fall, but I can't ski bell to bell like I used to.



Real ski muscles it seems can only really be worked out effectively by skiing.  I've tried most every dry land training exercise recomended by most every ski training program over the years,  and there's just a few ski specific muscles that will always be sore after the my 1st few days on the hill each season


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## gmcunni (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> If his Spring Semester class attendance vs. ski slope attendance at UVM is anything like mine was when I was a student there, plan on this being the last season you are better than him.  :lol:



my ski plans for next 4 years are a mess. UVM  (my top  "we can ski together" school) isn't high on his list.  he got into the engineering school but they don't offer the major he really wants, computer system eng, only a EE with a CS concentration.  He's leaning towards other schools with his preferred major.   not that he really wants to ski with me anymore anyhow.


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## gmcunni (Mar 7, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this.  Like I said in my earlier post, I was under 10 days last year, and this year I should be just over 10 days.  Conceptually I know what I want to do.  Hell, I was starting to do it a few years ago.  However physically it's difficult because I don't have the muscle memory or confidence to make the right movements in dynamic situations (bumps, trees, etc.), and that can only come with time.



we all learn/progress at different rates. I don't think i got above 20 days/season until 3 seasons ago but got better year after year because it was what i wanted to do.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> my ski plans for next 4 years are a mess. UVM  (my top  "we can ski together" school) isn't high on his list.  he got into the engineering school but they don't offer the major he really wants, computer system eng, only a EE with a CS concentration.  He's leaning towards other schools with his preferred major.   not that he really wants to ski with me anymore anyhow.



ugh

you've got work to do G.  Let him know that Bachelors degrees are essentially useless these days in technical fields.  He'll need to get a Master's in computer systems engineering anyways, so for undergrad he should go where he (meaning you) will have the most fun.  4 years of Burlington and Stowe was a helluva lotta fun, let me tell you.  

good luck


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 7, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this.  Like I said in my earlier post, I was under 10 days last year, and this year I should be just over 10 days.  Conceptually I know what I want to do.  Hell, I was starting to do it a few years ago.  However physically it's difficult because I don't have the muscle memory or confidence to make the right movements in dynamic situations (bumps, trees, etc.), and that can only come with time.
> 
> As far as fitness, obviously it's important.  However, there is no exercise that will get you prepared for skiing as well as skiing will.  I consider myself a very fit person.  I go to the gym, run on a regular basis, and play rugby during the spring and fall, but I can't ski bell to bell like I used to.



no comment on lessons, never had one, but skiing is about movement for me not a technique, so never cared.

to the notion you don't have muscle memory with 10 days of skiing though, its not entirely true. from a motor plan (schema, whatever you choose to call it) you have an established simulation that you can rerun over and over.  visualization has been shown to stimulate the exact muscle and motor plan as the actual overt motion. in fact the neuromuscular connection is excited, just under the contractile strength, pretty amazing really.  so you can in fact cont to improve your current "memory".  same goes with watching a more dynamic skiers, your brain actually simulates the motor sequences of their motions, look up mirror neurons, the brain is friggin incredible

I would strongly agree though, the only way to actually change you "skill" level, motor sequencing, etc is time and reps, you need the feedback from the motion to be able to make the necassary changes to maximize your efficiency and replace established "habits" with new motor choices. only skiing 10 dyas a year will just really prolong the process IMO.

from a practice standpoint its no different than watching our kids, they will repeat a challenging task over and over, they will make modifications with each rep until they become more efficient, organic learning.  way more fun too. although I'm sure lessons are fun, just seem very reductionistic for an activity that is a whole body experience


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## Puck it (Mar 7, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> no comment on lessons, never had one, but skiing is about movement for me not a technique, so never cared.
> 
> to the notion you don't have muscle memory with 10 days of skiing though, its not entirely true. from a motor plan (schema, whatever you choose to call it) you have an established simulation that you can rerun over and over. visualization has been shown to stimulate the exact muscle and motor plan as the actual overt motion. in fact the neuromuscular connection is excited, just under the contractile strength, pretty amazing really. so you can in fact cont to improve your current "memory". same goes with watching a more dynamic skiers, your brain actually simulates the motor sequences of their motions, look up mirror neurons, the brain is friggin incredible
> 
> ...


 
Rather expensive way to get skiing in.  UVM is $45K for out of state.  If going to grad school after BS then go to state school first (UCONN) then let the school pay for grad school with a TA and RA.


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## St. Bear (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> we all learn/progress at different rates. I don't think i got above 20 days/season until 3 seasons ago but got better year after year because it was what i wanted to do.



To be honest, a lot of my issues come from the fitness aspect.  Depending on the conditions my legs can by shot by 2pm, which makes it hard to work on technique.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 7, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> no comment on lessons, never had one, but skiing is about movement for me not a technique, so never cared.
> 
> to the notion you don't have muscle memory with 10 days of skiing though, its not entirely true. from a motor plan (schema, whatever you choose to call it) you have an established simulation that you can rerun over and over.  visualization has been shown to stimulate the exact muscle and motor plan as the actual overt motion. in fact the neuromuscular connection is excited, just under the contractile strength, pretty amazing really.  so you can in fact cont to improve your current "memory".  same goes with watching a more dynamic skiers, your brain actually simulates the motor sequences of their motions, look up mirror neurons, the brain is friggin incredible
> 
> I would strongly agree though, the only way to actually change you "skill" level, motor sequencing, etc is time and reps, you need the feedback from the motion to be able to make the necassary changes to maximize your efficiency and replace established "habits" with new motor choices. only skiing 10 dyas a year will just really prolong the process IMO.



Does one need a UVM CSE degree to understand this?  I failed.

I think if you get 10 days on snow, it's enough to progress...but if 5 of those days are back to back...I think you improve faster than if it's 5 saturdays in a row.    Not until I got my own ski house did I ever ski more than 20 days/year..but still went from cruiser to bumper in a couple years.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

Puck it said:


> Rather expensive way to get skiing in.  UVM is $45K for out of state.  If going to grad school after BS then go to state school first (UCONN) then let the school pay for grad school with a TA and RA.



Before attending, I took 2 years off and was a ski bum in Stowe so I could get in state resident discount on tuition when I went.  Back then tuition was only about 9K a year and living in Burlington was much cheaper than it is today.

Though in reality, no one on here should be taking advice from me on college as I really didn't do it right the first time around and here I am at 36 going again.  :lol:  I was a ski bum who took college classes, not a college student who skied.


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## mondeo (Mar 7, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I have this love/hate relationship with video. I have found that there are sometimes when I have this mental image of what the mechanics of my turn looks like, and then the video DOESN'T back up what I think I'm doing that it can actually mess me up more than it can help me. Basically it will cause me to go from thinking about 1 or 2 basic fundamental things to thinking about far more fundamental things as i'm making my turns, and for me that's NOT a good thing.
> 
> Other times, it is a help as a way to reinforce that what i've been trying to work on IS working. That's just my own experience though. In cases liek that it will allow me to just keep focusing on those 1 or 2 things i'm working on, while just letting the other 100 or so things that also need to occur just happen naturally


For me it works really well. You still need to keep focus on 1 or 2 things at a time, but it can help more than anything else in showing me what I need to focus on most, and how things need to be tweaked. Video in combination with instruction is huge.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

mondeo said:


> For me it works really well. You still need to keep focus on 1 or 2 things at a time, but it can help more than anything else in showing me what I need to focus on most, and how things need to be tweaked. Video in combination with instruction is huge.



You also need to consider the goals in mind.  You desire to have competition level bump technique.  Video is HUGE for achieving that goal. 

However, there are a lot of incredible bump skiers that don't have the dialed in orthodox style you're going for.  They ski them as well as you do, just differently.

I'm not saying video isn't a good idea as it truly is the only way you can "see" where your faults are.  I'm just not so sure it's a great investment for a recreational skier getting out 15 times a year.


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## mondeo (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> ugh
> 
> you've got work to do G. Let him know that Bachelors degrees are essentially useless these days in technical fields. He'll need to get a Master's in computer systems engineering anyways, so for undergrad he should go where he (meaning you) will have the most fun. 4 years of Burlington and Stowe was a helluva lotta fun, let me tell you.
> 
> good luck


Bachelors degrees in technical fields are the only Bachelors degrees worth anything on their own. Of the 11 people in my group hired from college in the last 6 years, 9 had only a B.S. when they were hired. One has a masters, and the other has a Ph.D. but was hired to do technology development/research type stuff. Grad work for engineering is no way needed, at least for Mech. E.s


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> *UVM*  (my top  "we can ski together" school)* isn't high on his list.*.



Your wallet will thank him.  That place is beyond ridiculous from the perspective of cost analysis.



deadheadskier said:


> Though in reality, *no one on here should be taking advice from me on college as I really didn't do it right the first time around and here I am at 36 going again*.  :lol:  *I was a ski bum who took college classes, not a college student who skied*.



I'll bet when you're lying on your deathbed someday (hopefully many, many, many years from now), you wont regret that decision.   I took a different route.  I moved to Burlington 2 weeks after graduating from college, and worked a 3pm to 11pm shift.  Trout fishing by day in the warmer months, skiing by day @ Stowe & Smuggs in the colder months.  I wont regret that either.


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## abc (Mar 7, 2012)

I don't ski as well as most here. However, I would have been an even lessor skier if I just ski.

A quote I like: "*practice don't make perfect, practice make permanent*". If you keep skiing with the wrong technique, you'll simply ingrain that into bad habits.

Skiing a lot, one eventually figure it out by trial and error. Taking lesson cuts that trial and error process and fast track to the better technique.  

You still have to practice those right technique. But you won't be wasting time practicing bad techniques that needs breaking later on. 

If you got a lot of time on snow anyway, you'll eventually figure it out by yourself (by following and imitating better skiers etc) and save the lesson cost. But for those like the OP, who are somewhat lacking snow time, lesson will be a whole lot faster way.


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## gmcunni (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> ugh
> 
> you've got work to do G.  Let him know that Bachelors degrees are essentially useless these days in technical fields.  He'll need to get a Master's in computer systems engineering anyways, so for undergrad he should go where he (meaning you) will have the most fun.  4 years of Burlington and Stowe was a helluva lotta fun, let me tell you.
> 
> good luck



told him if he goes to UCONN (instate tuition) we'd have $$ to help with grad school. he goes to Syracuse (his #1) he's on his own after that.


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

Wwded


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## hammer (Mar 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> told him if he goes to UCONN (instate tuition) we'd have $$ to help with grad school. he goes to Syracuse (his #1) he's on his own after that.


Our son is going to UMASS and the cost savings will end up going to his sister for a private school...:roll:


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## SkiFanE (Mar 7, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your wallet will thank him.  That place is beyond ridiculous from the perspective of cost analysis.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet when you're lying on your deathbed someday (hopefully many, many, many years from now), you wont regret that decision.   I took a different route.  I moved to Burlington 2 weeks after graduating from college, and worked a 3pm to 11pm shift.  Trout fishing by day in the warmer months, skiing by day @ Stowe & Smuggs in the colder months.  I wont regret that either.


My bro got a UVM biomed engineering degree.  Never ever used it...bummed around burlington a few years...skied and stuff.  Finally found his way, settled in Stowe area and is a well known newsphotographer for that area lol.  So he made Dad happy with the degree, but eventually did what he wanted.  I wanted to go to UVM, but my grades didn't cut it, damn.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> Our son is going to UMASS and the cost savings will end up going to his sister for a private school...:roll:



How's he liking it? My alma mater.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 7, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> Does one need a UVM CSE degree to understand this?  I failed.
> 
> I think if you get 10 days on snow, it's enough to progress...but if 5 of those days are back to back...I think you improve faster than if it's 5 saturdays in a row.    Not until I got my own ski house did I ever ski more than 20 days/year..but still went from cruiser to bumper in a couple years.



you got it. reps to modify your efficiency = back to back days better than 1x/wk

figuring out your efficient motion is the fun part, while you fatigue (the conditioning aspect) you have to realize how much wasted energy you are using in co contraction of muscles that don't need to be used, refining that is what lead to more effortlessness, but its a conscious process to start


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your wallet will thank him.  That place is beyond ridiculous from the perspective of cost analysis.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet when you're lying on your deathbed someday (hopefully many, many, many years from now), you wont regret that decision.   I took a different route.  I moved to Burlington 2 weeks after graduating from college, and worked a 3pm to 11pm shift.  Trout fishing by day in the warmer months, skiing by day @ Stowe & Smuggs in the colder months.  I wont regret that either.



Don't regret it for a minute truthfully.  Best time of my life.  Only downside going back now is it puts off parenting plans a few years.  I'm fine with that and thankfully because my wife is a good deal younger than me, she's fine with it too.


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## hammer (Mar 7, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> How's he liking it? My alma mater.


Really likes it there, it's ended up being a good fit.  Grades have been pretty good so far although a CS class this semester (that is available as a math option for his major) isn't going well for him so he will likely drop it...no big deal but he will have to make up the credits.  He's been really involved with HvZ this semester so that keeps him occupied when he's not studying (we hope).

He lives in Southwest but was smart enough to stay in his dorm when the "riot" happened after the Superbowl.


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## bvibert (Mar 7, 2012)

I think Highway Star offers extreme skiing clinics...


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## mondeo (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> You also need to consider the goals in mind. You desire to have competition level bump technique. Video is HUGE for achieving that goal.
> 
> However, there are a lot of incredible bump skiers that don't have the dialed in orthodox style you're going for. They ski them as well as you do, just differently.
> 
> I'm not saying video isn't a good idea as it truly is the only way you can "see" where your faults are. I'm just not so sure it's a great investment for a recreational skier getting out 15 times a year.


I don't think what style you're going for makes that much difference in how valuable video is. The benefit is in showing you what you actually look like vs how you think you look like, so you can figure out what needs to be changed to get you where you want to be and break down where the mechanics are going wrong. And I'd say it's helpful in any sport, not just skiing.

It's also not that much of an investment for what you get out of it. Take a couple minutes of video, max, then keep on skiing. And when you have some time at home, or even in the gondola, take a look at it.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> Really likes it there, it's ended up being a good fit.  Grades have been pretty good so far although a CS class this semester (that is available as a math option for his major) isn't going well for him so he will likely drop it...no big deal but he will have to make up the credits.  He's been really involved with HvZ this semester so that keeps him occupied when he's not studying (we hope).
> 
> He lives in Southwest but was smart enough to stay in his dorm when the "riot" happened after the Superbowl.



Lol..I was there for the 1986 post Red Sox/Mets world series..."riot" back then in Southwest.  But ya know...kids nowadays just can't handle themselves  :razz:  HvZ?  Wha'ts that?


----------



## hammer (Mar 7, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> Lol..I was there for the 1986 post Red Sox/Mets world series..."riot" back then in Southwest.  But ya know...kids nowadays just can't handle themselves  :razz:  HvZ?  What's that?



http://humansvszombies.org

Works well in a school the size of UMASS.


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## Cheese (Mar 7, 2012)

abc said:


> A quote I like: "*practice don't make perfect, practice make permanent*



+1

Yes, spring is a great time to learn as the snow is soft and slow.  If we were on the hill I could demonstrate this far better but I'll give it a try here.

Go to the top of the hill and wait for an expert.  Once he passes, watch his line down through the moguls.  Notice that it's virtually straight down a center line, his boots basically remain on that line and his skis rapidly change direction centered on that line.

Notice that his shoulders are centered vertically above the line and perpendicular to the line regardless of what his skis are doing.

Now ski off to the side of the mogul run and wait for another expert to come through the moguls.  Notice from the side the upper body is straight, weight is forward and the hands are in front for the entire run.  Even after he plants his pole in the face of each mogul he brings his hands back together in front of his chest instead of dropping them to his side like skiers do on flat groomed trails.

Now take a look at the mogul field from the side.  You should be able to see a similar line as the one you saw from the top but this line goes across the hill at a slightly down hill angle.  This is your learning line.  Many beginners will start at the top, maybe get one or two bumps right and then spend the rest of the run hanging on for dear life while practicing those bad habits.  Instead, your line across the hill should be slow, have 4-5 bumps in a row and then be over.  Look up hill to make sure no one is coming then make your run across the hill practicing the body positioning you just witnessed.  After the 4-5 bumps put you at the side of the trail, stop, analyze your body position from the last run and think of corrections you can make on the next pass.  Again, look for the traverse line in the moguls, look up the hill for a clearing and practice on another set of 4-5 bumps and stop again.  Continue this traversing practice as long as your legs remain strong.  

Great mogul skiing is all about reaction time and minimizing body movements so that you can keep up.  Any rotation of the shoulders will slow down your reaction time.  Pole planting needs to come quickly from the wrists instead of slowly from the arms and shoulders.  Dropping your hands will cause your weight to fall backwards so keep them out front.  I've often suggested people bump their thumbs together after each pole plant to make sure their shoulders are squared and hands are out front.

This was quick and not well written but hopefully it gives you a small amount of guidance before you hit the moguls on your next day out.

Good luck!


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## loafasaur (Mar 7, 2012)

The single best way to get better fast is to take a lesson.  A group lesson is a good bet because the more advanced groups tend to be smaller.

Spring is a good time to venture into the bumps and trees.  It's soft and deep at the right mountain (hint:  my nom de board is a good spring choice).  Cheese is right on about technique, but if it's steep the "zip line" he advocates, straight down the hill, makes controlling speed an issue.  The mogul purists will cringe, but it you can pick a serpintine line (series of S's) and stay reasonably close to the fall line, you can control speed better.  The key is to not get pointed sideways.  Look down the hill and have a plan where you're going. 

Looking down the hill and having a line to ski planned in your head is REAL important for bumps.  Look ahead and keep a rhythm going with the bumps.

Concentrate on keeping your body LOW, close to your knees, in bumps.  You'll straighten up naturally on the downhill side of each bump.  Concentrating on staying low will help you not be stiff.  I'm sure you know what happens when you stiffen up in the bumps.

Concentrate on keeping your hands in front of your body, in bumps and everywhere else.  This is a great help to keep your weight centered.  Don't drag your poles--your weight is back when you do.  Take a couple of groomer runs without poles and concentrate on keeping your hands in front.  Then try it again with the poles.  You'll see.

Trees are a lot like bumps.  It's psychology.  Look where they aren't, not where they are.  Plan your route--it's surprisingly easy when you have a plan.

This ol' lizard's $02.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2012)

Cheese said:


> I've often suggested people* bump their thumbs together after each pole plant to make sure their shoulders are squared and hands are out front*.



That's a great tip, I'll have to try that in bumps and tree-bumps.  Occasionally I do find I lose my hands a bit.


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## Stache (Mar 7, 2012)




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## Bostonian (Mar 8, 2012)

Just want to thank everyone for their tips and recommendations   First thing I am going to do is try those dolphin turns.  I hope to be out on the hill Saturday night or tomorrow night.  All depending on the wife's approval. I want to hit some soft bumps this spring if possible!


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## WWF-VT (Mar 8, 2012)

Cheese said:


> +1
> 
> Yes, spring is a great time to learn as the snow is soft and slow.  If we were on the hill I could demonstrate this far better but I'll give it a try here.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a great way to watch an "expert" ski but watching is only one  piece of getting a beginner to the next level.  I suggest you do the same exercise only with an instructor who is skilled and focused on teaching skiing moguls.


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## LiquidFeet (Mar 8, 2012)

To the OP:  be aware that many folk suggesting skipping lessons and just ski a lot while following others better than you DO MEAN start as a child and ski 20 years and you'll get it, just like they did.


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## St. Bear (Mar 8, 2012)

LiquidFeet said:


> To the OP:  be aware that many folk suggesting skipping lessons and just ski a lot while following others better than you DO MEAN start as a child and ski 20 years and you'll get it, just like they did.



No.

I'm saying that unless you can get out on the slopes on a regular basis, probably at least once a week on average, then the lessons will be wasted money.

Ideally, everyone would ski all the time and take lessons.  However, in reality most of us have only a certain amount of time and money to dedicate to skiing.  If given a choice of more days on the hill or a few lessons, I think it would be more beneficial to ski more.  Just my opinion.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 8, 2012)

LiquidFeet said:


> To the OP:  be aware that many folk suggesting skipping lessons and just ski a lot while following others better than you DO MEAN start as a child and ski 20 years and you'll get it, just like they did.



Not at all.



St. Bear said:


> No.
> 
> I'm saying that unless you can get out on the slopes on a regular basis, probably at least once a week on average, then the lessons will be wasted money.
> 
> Ideally, everyone would ski all the time and take lessons.  However, in reality most of us have only a certain amount of time and money to dedicate to skiing.  If given a choice of more days on the hill or a few lessons, I think it would be more beneficial to ski more.  Just my opinion.



This


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## riverc0il (Mar 8, 2012)

LiquidFeet said:


> To the OP:  be aware that many folk suggesting skipping lessons and just ski a lot while following others better than you DO MEAN start as a child and ski 20 years and you'll get it, just like they did.


Not at all. I skied 16 years as a terminal intermediate BEFORE I started focusing and watching others, my base was pathetic before I decided to step it up. I know many skiers that went from snow plow to awesome in six years. It is cool to toss out personal opinion in this thread but your read on others' opinions is just plain wrong.


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## LiquidFeet (Mar 8, 2012)

Guess I'm getting creamed.  That's ok.


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## ToddW (Mar 8, 2012)

Available from Amazon.com or http://harbskisystems.com/  The best $20 you'll ever spend to improve your skiing.


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## goldsbar (Mar 8, 2012)

Agree with ToddW per my prior post.  The problem with watching "experts" is that skiing is composed of small movements that translate into big movements.  Watching someone will show you the outcome, not the technique that led to that outcome.  Many "experts" have plenty of bad habits but manage toget away with them through being solid in other areas and having very good balance.


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## witch hobble (Mar 8, 2012)

Invent a time machine (hot tub? phone booth? DeLorean?).  Go back and start as a child, preferably with avid skier parents. 

Holisitic skiing?  I like it.  Try to become a better person, a better human, a better citizen of the planet.  Then ski ability should flow outward from your perfectly centered inner being.  

Tune 'em.  Turn 'em.  Drop out! Ski bum somewhere.


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## mondeo (Mar 9, 2012)

You people are making this too complicated.

Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn. All there is to it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 9, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> No.
> 
> I'm saying that unless you can get out on the slopes on a regular basis, probably at least once a week on average, then the lessons will be wasted money.
> 
> Ideally, everyone would ski all the time and take lessons.  However, in reality most of us have only a certain amount of time and money to dedicate to skiing.  If given a choice of more days on the hill or a few lessons, I think it would be more beneficial to ski more.  Just my opinion.



agreed

You can spend $300 to ski with Dan Egan for a day or get a season pass to a mid-sized area for $400. The latter is the better investment IMO.


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## abc (Mar 9, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> You can spend $300 to ski with Dan Egan for a day or get a season pass to a mid-sized area for $400. The latter is the better investment IMO.


If you don't live near the mountain (which the OP doesn't), the investment for a season pass is a whole lot more than the $400. Gas alone would be way over that!

$300 with Dan Egan is $300 and Dan Egan. Who here had taken a lesson with Dan Egan so they can say it's less than life changing? (I haven't)


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## deadheadskier (Mar 9, 2012)

I recognize that there is gas involved.  Where the OP lives is within 2 hours of several ski areas. Sunapee, Ragged, Gunstock, Crotched, Pats, Wachusett.  Wachusett is only about 40 minutes from Acton actually. 

There are several members of this forum who ski Wachusett regularly, some who absolutely rip, such as Waloaf.  If I were the OP and wanted to improve my skills quickly, I'd get a pass to Wachusett and try and hook up with some good skiers there and get to the mountain as much as possible next season.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 9, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Wachusett is only about 40 minutes from Acton actually.



Nashoba is the next town over from Acton too.


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## St. Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

And when you hit a plateau, just buy better equipment.  That's guaranteed to improve your skiing.

These just came in yesterday.

/hat tip to PuckIt


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## hammer (Mar 9, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> And when you hit a plateau, just buy better equipment.  That's guaranteed to improve your skiing.
> 
> These just came in yesterday.
> 
> /hat tip to PuckIt


OK so what is the mix between the driver and the equipment?  Somehow I'm thinking it's at least 75% driver and 25% equipment, likely higher...

Although the new skis do look nice...what are they?


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## SkiFanE (Mar 9, 2012)

hammer said:


> OK so what is the mix between the driver and the equipment?  Somehow I'm thinking it's at least 75% driver and 25% equipment, likely higher...
> 
> Although the new skis do look nice...what are they?



I'd say it's 90 driver/10 equipment.  If one can adjust balance/stance on the fly, they can ski anything IMO.  Certainly love doing bumps in one type of ski, but can still do them with all types, just may take more effort.  Got my first pair of midfats recently..think I've finally figured them out..first weekend I was overusing my hip to turn (I think)..but seemed to have corrected that and can still rip the bumps and groomers, just have to work equipment a little different than with my SL skis.  But floating in pow...oh yeah...midfats blow my SLs out of the water lol.


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## St. Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

hammer said:


> OK so what is the mix between the driver and the equipment?  Somehow I'm thinking it's at least 75% driver and 25% equipment, likely higher...
> 
> Although the new skis do look nice...what are they?



Palmer P01 Titanal.

And my comment was very tongue-in-cheek.  The right tool can make life easier, but if you know what you're doing, you can kill it on anything.

Rory McIlroy could probably go out and shoot under par with a wood, a wedge, and a putter.  But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be easier if he used his entire bag.


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## Puck it (Mar 9, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> And when you hit a plateau, just buy better equipment. That's guaranteed to improve your skiing.
> 
> These just came in yesterday.
> 
> /hat tip to PuckIt


 
What size did you get? 179cm's?  You sking them this weekend?  Remember throttle them back.


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## St. Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Puck it said:


> What size did you get? 179cm's?  You sking them this weekend?  Remember throttle them back.



Yup, 179.  I'm going to try to ski them this weekend at Whiteface, I need to make sure the local shop can give me a one day turnaround.  Shouldn't be a problem as I'm sure they're slow this time of year.


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> I'd say it's 90 driver/10 equipment.  If one can adjust balance/stance on the fly, they can ski anything IMO.  Certainly love doing bumps in one type of ski, but can still do them with all types, just may take more effort.  Got my first pair of midfats recently..think I've finally figured them out..first weekend I was overusing my hip to turn (I think)..but seemed to have corrected that and can still rip the bumps and groomers, just have to work equipment a little different than with my SL skis.  But floating in pow...oh yeah...midfats blow my SLs out of the water lol.



Totally agree!  Technique trumps technology for sure!

You can take an "average" skier and put them on the latest, greatest skis, and they'll still be an "average" skier.

You can take a GREAT skier and put them on a beat up old pair of entry level rental skis and they'll still be a GREAT skier

Some new gear might SLIGHTLY mask some technique faults,  but in the end those faults are still going to hinder that skier.  And in some certain cases, that same "masking" of those faults might have been achieved via a fresh sharpen and wax of the skiers old gear :idea:


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## mondeo (Mar 9, 2012)

hammer said:


> OK so what is the mix between the driver and the equipment? Somehow I'm thinking it's at least 75% driver and 25% equipment, likely higher...
> 
> Although the new skis do look nice...what are they?


Depends on the skier. At beginner level, it's 100% skier. Start changing things around on them, they won't really notice. Take a WC level skier and put them on fat boards in the bumps or slalom, and they'll still be able to crush an expert skier, but they'd get crushed in competition with their peers. I know for me, trying to throw check turns in between widely spaced bumps isn't a big deal on my bump skis, difficult on the mid fats, and damn near impossible on my Watea 94s.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 9, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Totally agree!  Technique trumps technology for sure!
> 
> You can take an "average" skier and put them on the latest, greatest skis, and they'll still be an "average" skier.
> 
> ...



Shhhhhhhh....don't tell the ski industry marketers this...all this new fangled stuff WILL make you ski better   .  I actually loved my old SL straight skis, still don't get why shaped skis were a supposed improvement...but I bought them anyway once I felt like a fool in my old ones lol.


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## St. Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> I actually loved my old SL straight skis, still don't get why shaped skis were a supposed improvement...but I bought them anyway once I felt like a fool in my old ones lol.



That's because you were already a proficient skier.  As someone who grew up skiing straight skis, and came back to the sport with shaped skis, it's night and day.


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## gmcunni (Mar 9, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> As someone who grew up skiing straight skis, and came back to the sport with shaped skis, it's night and day.


+1


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## hammer (Mar 9, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> I'd say it's 90 driver/10 equipment.  If one can adjust balance/stance on the fly, they can ski anything IMO.  Certainly love doing bumps in one type of ski, but can still do them with all types, just may take more effort.  Got my first pair of midfats recently..think I've finally figured them out..first weekend I was overusing my hip to turn (I think)..but seemed to have corrected that and can still rip the bumps and groomers, just have to work equipment a little different than with my SL skis.  But floating in pow...oh yeah...midfats blow my SLs out of the water lol.





drjeff said:


> Totally agree!  Technique trumps technology for sure!
> 
> You can take an "average" skier and put them on the latest, greatest skis, and they'll still be an "average" skier.
> 
> ...





mondeo said:


> Depends on the skier. At beginner level, it's 100% skier. Start changing things around on them, they won't really notice. Take a WC level skier and put them on fat boards in the bumps or slalom, and they'll still be able to crush an expert skier, but they'd get crushed in competition with their peers. I know for me, trying to throw check turns in between widely spaced bumps isn't a big deal on my bump skis, difficult on the mid fats, and damn near impossible on my Watea 94s.



My own experience as an intermediate is that I can tell the difference a bit, but it's more in how forgiving the skis are.  I've rented skis that were less forgiving and have been taken for a ride when my stance/balance wasn't right...but while my intermediate level all mountain skis (Elan Magfire 10s) are more forgiving of my inconsistent technique, they aren't as happy/stable at speed as I would like.  With the conditions we've had this season I've actually been quite pleased with the Progressors I bought in October.  I'm still working on finding the right pressure point but if I'm on my game they respond well.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 9, 2012)

drjeff said:


> You can take a GREAT skier and put them on a beat up old pair of entry level rental skis and they'll still be a GREAT skier



Until they try to ski above what that equipment was designed for and the skis start flying off unexpectedly. 

Equipment quality does make a big difference when transitioning from intermediate to expert. 

I have always tried to make due with the equipment I have and make it do what I want it to do. However, that only works to a certain point.

I started out on a cheap pair of Dynastars, with cheap (basic) Salomon bindings, and cheap boots. This setup was okay for my first year when I was learning to ski. However, as I started to ski more agressively and on harder terrain (bumps, trees, etc), the skis and binding were failing to keep up and I was experiencing pre-release problems and the skis were too soft and the boots didn't really fit correctly (foot sloshing around in a boot is not good for control). I feel my second year on these skis kind of held my back as I felt I had to ski somewhat tentatively. On the other hand, I was also forced to ski "light on my feet" which is a helpful skill.

After several pre-releases (a couple when I was killing it on lift lines :wink: ) I decided I needed new skis. For my third year I bought a pair of K2 Enemies (prior to the Public Enemies). Unfortunately, I didn't buy new boots :roll: The new skis were night and day over my old ones. The next year I got new boots. Again, night and day.

I'm not saying that you need the latest/greatest equipment. But a solid good performing set up can be very helpful as you progress in ability. 
If you *aren't *like me and you are starting out on good equipment, well then you need to follow the other points of advice mentioned in this thread and ski more and push yourself. Everyone (even experts) have flaws in their style. I've been told I have a very unique style. That come from never having taken a lesson, and because I have deep rooted body and foot positioning that carried over from hockey that has never totally been removed from my skiing technique.


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## mister moose (Mar 9, 2012)

Lots of great advice here.  I'd say the highlights are:

Deadheadskier saying buy a pass at Wachusett.  Then use it.  I don't care if it isn't Taos, if you want to get better, get out there.  And get out there often.  Everything else comes after that.  A mountain 40 minutes away where you can flash a pass and ski for 2 hours after dinner twice a week will do more for your skiing than a week anywhere.

Not that there isn't more you need to do.

Those that said get the basics right - have it right.  The better your foundation, the better you will be.  I bet half the skiers on this board can't make two perfect wedge linked turns.  If you could, your upper level skiing would improve.  Bet on it.  Ah, but who cares about wedge turns, I can hear you saying.  Good lessons work on the basics, give you drills to practice, add tools, and challenge you to take the next step, go bigger.

Conditioning.  Nothing can replace this either.  Take the best bump skiers on this board next to the terminal intermediates.  Ask them to jump up explosively from a squat.  See who is the fastest.  It won't be the terminal intemediate.  Next, see who can do a knee bend on one leg.  It won't be the terminal intermediate.  Sorry, but the truth hurts.  The better skiers are almost always in better shape.  (From skiing more)

Balance.  Stand on one foot with your boots on, arms out.  How long can you stay on each foot, motionless?  Now try swinging the airborne foot back, and stay balanced... for how long?  Better skiers will be able to balance for a while, great skiers can do it forever.  Where does this kind of balance come from?  Some might be ingrained, but a lot comes from mileage. (Skiing more)  If you cannot balance on either foot statically, how on earth are you ever going to do it in the mogul field?  Or trees?  Or deep powder?

Muscle awareness.  This is the opposite of "just do it"  The better you can feel & dissect and control each aspect of what you are doing, the better you will be.  This is why tapping the thumbs up front works so well.  It positions you, and gets you to feel the results.  So does "carrying the dinner tray"  "Imagining a glass ceiling", and a hundred other awareness techniques.

Taking all your bad habits out onto more challenging terrain will work... eventually.  Darwin ensures that.  But getting some coaching and practicing on terrain well suited for that practice will get you there sooner.  The best part of the go bigger type advice is to not stay in your comfort zone.  Your comfort zone is where you learn very little.  But baby steps out of your comfort zone is where the best learning occurs, not by terrorizing yourself.  Baby steps built on sucessful baby steps gets you there.  And if you have an "Aha" moment and can take a bigger step, by all means, take it.

Combine all the good advice on this thread, and all of it boils down to time on the hill, and learning through instructors, friends, watching others, books, and videos.

I see a lot better turns out there these days.  The new equipment makes it way easier to learn faster, and to carve sooner.  Fatter skis have made the powder skiing learning curve shorter.  But in the bumps, I am struck by how shaped skis and fat skis still don't save you.  Bumps are still about mastering the same skills it has always taken, and so far there are no short cuts.


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Until they try to ski above what that equipment was designed for and the skis start flying off unexpectedly.
> 
> Equipment quality does make a big difference when transitioning from intermediate to expert.
> 
> ...



Boots - totally agree.  Hands down IMHO the most important piece of equipment one uses.

Bindings.  I'll make the case that as long as the binding can be set to the appropriate chart determined DIN setting, that if you have proper technique that keeps you centered over the ski,  that entry level binding that can be set to 7 will funtion just as well as that high end race binding that can be set to 7, for 99% of the skiing public (Highwaystar obviously being that other 1%   :lol: ).  If you have a tecnhique that has one "in the backseat" or doing a bunch of body rotation in an effort to steer the ski, etc., motions that WILL cause any binding to start functioning towards it's release point, while you are still "in control", then having a binding capable of being set above one's recommended DIN will be looked at favorably.  Once again, technique trumps technology


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## SkiFanE (Mar 9, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Until they try to ski above what that equipment was designed for and the skis start flying off unexpectedly.
> 
> Equipment quality does make a big difference when transitioning from intermediate to expert.
> 
> ...



Good points.  My folks weren't big skiers and bought me some intermed jr skis in middle school..tucking as fast as I could at about 13yo my skis just flew apart lol.  I guess I've never had anything but expert/tough skis since then...still haven't put my boot in a women's specific ski yet, sorta feel I'll break them since I'm alot bulkier than most women.  Also..growing up on the young side of a big family meant ancient outdated hand-me-downs that I had no choice but to use and have fun in - nothing is stopping a 12yo from keeping up with buddies no matter how shitty the equipment lol.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 9, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Lots of great advice here.  I'd say the highlights are:
> 
> Conditioning.  Nothing can replace this either.  Take the best bump skiers on this board next to the terminal intermediates.  Ask them to jump up explosively from a squat.  See who is the fastest.  It won't be the terminal intemediate.  Next, see who can do a knee bend on one leg.  It won't be the terminal intermediate.  Sorry, but the truth hurts.  The better skiers are almost always in better shape.  (From skiing more)
> 
> ...



Conditioning and balance are also key to recovery in bumps...I have saved myself from yardsales many times this year only b/c I had the strength and balance to stay on my feet using every last bit of effort/energy I can muster.


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> Conditioning and balance are also key to recovery in bumps...I have saved myself from yardsales many times this year only b/c I had the strength and balance to stay on my feet using every last bit of effort/energy I can muster.



This has made a very tangible difference in my core strength and balance this year







And I actually find the workouts fun, which helps since as I seem to be finding out with each passing day, that the older I get the harder I have to work to both try and atleast maintain and hopefully improve my fitness


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2012)

LiquidFeet said:


> Guess I'm getting creamed.  That's ok.



I agree with you mostly.  The fact is, most people didnt take lessons _throughout_ their learning experience, and so they have a bias against it being necessity.   They think, _"well, I didnt have lessons, and I'm pretty good" _ - but just because it isnt 100% required, doesnt mean it isnt the best route possible, assuming one has the money.   That said, obviously time on the mountain is crucial as others have said, but I dont see their point in pretending like it's _"one or the other"_, as they're not mutually exclusive.  Quality lessons + time on the mountain, will a better skier make, every time.



St. Bear said:


> That's because you were already a proficient skier.  *As someone who grew up skiing straight skis, and came back to the sport with shaped skis, it's night and day*.



In a way, I actually feel lucky that I learned on straight skis.  

 It similarly blows my mind to think that 20 year olds will never know what life was like, "before teh internetz".


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## Cornhead (Mar 9, 2012)

Here's a thread about the guys at Gore who made and maintain glades there.http://www.nyskiblog.com/p/harvey-road-forum.html  Two of them ski Racetigers!  :-o Just goes to show you, it's more about the skier than what they ski.

  I met two guys last week in VT, I gave their sticks a quick tune in my motel room. Later that day I hooked up with them and shared some turns. I had a preconceived idea of how they skied based on their equipment.  The one skied pretty much as I expected, the other skied great. He was old school, legs pretty much together, he wanted to ski mostly groomers, but he skied them well.


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## legalskier (Mar 9, 2012)

Watch somebody who's good.
Like this guy-



Nice tune, eh?


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