# ikon pass details released



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

ok, so this isn't as bad as I thought, and it may even be good. a step up in price, but full season Stratton/tremblant, 7 each at k and sugarbush, 7 days combined at boyne new England. full pass to squaw and co places, access to Jackson etc. 

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/02/22/ikon-pass-mountains-price/
IKON PASS, $899

Unlimited access with no blackout dates to 12 destinations: Steamboat, Winter Park Resort, Copper Mountain Resort, Eldora Mountain Resort, Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows, Mammoth Mountain, Big Bear Mountain Resort, June Mountain, Stratton, Snowshoe Mountain, Tremblant and Blue Mountain.

Seven-day access to each of these resorts: Deer Valley Resort, Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, Big Sky Resort, Killington Resort, Revelstoke Mountain Resort, Sugarbush Resort.

Seven-days combined at: Aspen Snowmass’ four hills: Aspen Mountain, Snowmass, Aspen Highlands, Buttermilk; AltaSnowbird; SkiBig3’s Banff Sunshine, Lake Louise and Mt. Norquay, and the New England trio of Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon Mountain.

Child Ikon Passes (12 and under) will be available through April 9 for $199 with the purchase of an adult Ikon Pass. Military and college discounts will be available.

IKON BASE PASS, $599

Unlimited access: Winter Park Resort, Copper Mountain Resort, Eldora Mountain Resort, Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows (holiday restrictions), Big Bear Mountain Resort, June Mountain, Tremblant, Blue Mountain, Snowshoe Mountain.

Five days, with holiday restrictions, at each of these resorts: Steamboat, Mammoth Mountain, Deer Valley Resort, Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, Big Sky Resort, Stratton, Killington Resort, Revelstoke Mountain Resort, Sugarbush Resort.

Five days combined, with holiday restrictions at all, at: Aspen Snowmass’ Aspen Mountain, Snowmass, Aspen Highlands, Buttermilk; AltaSnowbird; SkiBig3’s Banff Sunshine, Lake Louise, Mt. Norquay and the New England trio of Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon Mountain.

Child Ikon Base passes (12 and under) through April 9 for $149 with the purchase of an adult Ikon Base Pass.


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## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

No interest to me.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

sugarbush wasn't on the initial list. that makes this much more appealing to me. they're giving me 2 more K days, unlimited Stratton days, taking away okemo/pico 10 and replacing it with a sugarbush 7 is a win in my opinion. sucks losing new york, and sucks getting so limited for the maine places, but overall this is less expensive and better than I expected


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## Edd (Feb 22, 2018)

I’m conflicted. 


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

yea, the base pass does nothing for me. no Stratton unlimited, restricted K/sugarbush. the full is expensive but it should take care of my skiing without much/any other out of pocket. i'll get a skiVT 3 pack or 5 pack because I can't go a season without skiing jay, stowe, mrg, magic


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## jaytrem (Feb 22, 2018)

Interesting.  With Easter break being so late next year I may want to head west with the kids (got free lodging at Squaw).  Will require some number crunching, but the base pass might work pretty well for me.  Question is do I still buy the Peaks pass.  Defintiely has me thinking.


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## Zermatt (Feb 22, 2018)

Big question....can I use my Killington days at Pico?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

billo said:


> Big question....can I use my Killington days at Pico?



I think you can. a K ticket is always good at pico. I just think they removed pico as its own destination.


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## gnardawg (Feb 22, 2018)

Hard Pass from me. Going to start looking for a seasonal rental at Killington and going in on a season pass there. 

The Loon/Sunday River/Sugarloaf combo 7 days is the kicker for me. That's CRAP.


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## mccleaks (Feb 22, 2018)

Not much interest at all to a Boston day tripper. I'd use the 7 days at Boyne since Loon is an easy day trip and I typically rent a house at least once or twice a season at Sugarloaf or SR. Figure in 5 days at one of the Western destinations and you're still at 75 bucks a day. Seems tough on those of you from VT too since there are plenty of better mountains in your state that aren't included and any of the Boyne resorts are a haul from VT. Hopefully they grow the list next year. Sunapee along with the extra days at the Boyne resorts were the big draw to the MAX pass for me... along with the lower price point.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

I ski about 30 days in the east and 20 out west every year. 7 sugarbush + 7 killington + 7 combined boyne + X Stratton + skiVT 3 pack = >30 eastern days. west is well taken care of. this is ok for me. Stratton for early season and late season short drives. k and sugarbush and others for the bulk of the mid season. western options a plenty.


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## boston_e (Feb 22, 2018)

The max pass add on option was way better.  This is a huge disappointment IMO.


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## abc (Feb 22, 2018)

Base pass will do for me. 

Deer Valley, here I com!


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> sugarbush wasn't on the initial list. that makes this much more appealing to me. they're giving me 2 more K days, unlimited Stratton days, taking away okemo/pico 10 and replacing it with a sugarbush 7 is a win in my opinion. sucks losing new york, and sucks getting so limited for the maine places, but overall this is less expensive and better than I expected


Sugarbush is interesting, unlimited Stratton days is a joke to me since that place is basically off limits on weekends.  If it was unlimited Killington days, I would agree with you.



gnardawg said:


> Hard Pass from me. Going to start looking for a seasonal rental at Killington and going in on a season pass there.
> 
> The Loon/Sunday River/Sugarloaf combo 7 days is the kicker for me. That's CRAP.


My wife and I have been discussing the same option for next season with a little one on the way.

I also agree about the Loon/SR/SL combo 7 days is a joke.



boston_e said:


> The max pass add on option was way better.  This is a huge disappointment IMO.


Agreed.

IMO, this pass is a huge disappointment.  The base pass for a New England-based skier/rider is awful.


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## AdironRider (Feb 22, 2018)

You people are crazy if you think this is worse than the Max Pass.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> You people are crazy if you think this is worse than the Max Pass.



it just depends what you wanted and got out of max. for a boston skier who doesn't go west, this totally sucks (losing southern NH places, and capping loon/sr/sl at 7 total). for a nyc skier who does go west (me), this is fine. losing catskills and adks sucks no matter how you slice it tho.


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## Zermatt (Feb 22, 2018)

I'm pleasantly surprised after panning it so hard.  I think I could make the base pass work for my family.

Copper or Tremblant over Christmas.
5 Days at a western resort over February break, nice selection, just can't ski Sat or Sun of President's weekend.
Pico, Sugarbush or Stratton on other non-holiday weekends


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## AdironRider (Feb 22, 2018)

Sunday River and Sugarloaf are further away from Boston than Stratton (which is a full pass now) as well as Killington and equal to Sugarbush so I don't really see the argument. 

Losing Wawa isn't the end of the world here. 

Given my user name you probably can guess how I feel about the NY resorts, but I guarantee that after only a year they weren't seeing that many users and bailed on the Ikon, which sucks, as the Face and Gore both have better terrain (but less snow) than the VT and ME offerings.


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## boston_e (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> You people are crazy if you think this is worse than the Max Pass.



The Ikon pass might be better than the max for people who either a) really love Stratton or b) take multiple western trips each year.  

Outside of those two categories, I don’t see how the Ikon is better.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Sunday River and Sugarloaf are further away from Boston than Stratton (which is a full pass now) as well as Killington and equal to Sugarbush so I don't really see the argument.
> 
> Losing Wawa isn't the end of the world here.
> 
> Given my user name you probably can guess how I feel about the NY resorts, but I guarantee that after only a year they weren't seeing that many users and bailed on the Ikon, which sucks, as the Face and Gore both have better terrain (but less snow) than the VT and ME offerings.


You're the one who keeps harping about Wachusett.  Wachusett was mentioned a couple of times, but is not even close to the main issue here.

If it were a Killington full pass instead of Stratton, I might be in.  I don't like Stratton and even avoid it on the MAX Pass unless I can get there on a random mid-week day or something odd happens.



boston_e said:


> The Ikon pass might be better than the max for people who either a) really love Stratton or b) take multiple western trips each year.
> 
> Outside of those two categories, I don’t see how the Ikon is better.


Pretty much.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Sunday River and Sugarloaf are further away from Boston than Stratton (which is a full pass now) as well as Killington and equal to Sugarbush so I don't really see the argument.
> 
> Losing Wawa isn't the end of the world here.



From Boston itself Sunday River is only 20-25 minutes further than Stratton. And Sugarloaf is only an hour further. No offense to Stratton, but I'd rather drive further to either of those other 2 places. An unlimited pass somewhere has no value if you don't want to ski at that place. Wawa also was a close option for many people in that area for a quick day trip. I can see why losing that would hurt the value of the Ikon for some vs what Max had but I don't think that was the biggest concern anyway.

For some this pass will be better than Max was. For others it won't be. It all depends on your specific situation. To say someone is "crazy" if they don't agree with your point of view on this new pass being better is...well...crazy.


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## AdironRider (Feb 22, 2018)

The only people who seem to think this pass is worse must post on this board, as its a small minority compared to those who think its better, this is 10 times better than the Max in terms of quality of terrain (outside of the NY resorts being dropped) and days offered. 

For any Eastern skier that is debating an Epic purchase, this is a no brainer. Compared to the Max pass (which is 779 bucks) the tradeoffs are way better. 

I get this is an internet message board and hyperbole is a given, but keep fucking that chicken that the Ikon is worse than the Max. Not many folks are going to agree. 

I bet Jackson just gained 25k skier visits at a minimum.


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## WJenness (Feb 22, 2018)

Yep, probably looking elsewhere for next year. (Another metro-Boston day tripper).

I've skied out west a total of 4 days of the 10+ years I've been skiing, so you can give me unlimited days at every resort west of New England, and it adds basically zero value for me.

So for $599 (which is $30 cheaper than what I paid for this year's Max, granted) I go from 45 days max with no blackouts to a max of 20 days with 10 blackout dates. Sugarbush being on there is a nice surprise though.

The $899 price basically would get me unlimited Stratton days, 2 additional Killington days, 2 additional Sugarbush days, and 2 additional Boyne days, and get rid of the blackouts.

I honestly can't see any circumstance other than someone giving me an on mountain condo with the proviso that I couldn't sell it that would result in me saying "Sure, I'll ski Stratton more than 5x this season." So, it's basically an extra $300 for 6 more days of skiing and no blackout days. Yawn. The "No Blackouts" is the biggest pull for me, but it isn't big enough.

Leaning New England Silver pass depending on pricing at the moment.

Will continue to watch options coming down the line.

-w


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> The only people who seem to think this pass is worse must post on this board, as its a small minority compared to those who think its better, this is 10 times better than the Max in terms of quality of terrain (outside of the NY resorts being dropped) and days offered.
> 
> For any Eastern skier that is debating an Epic purchase, this is a no brainer. Compared to the Max pass (which is 779 bucks) the tradeoffs are way better.
> 
> ...


Again, if you plan to travel... to Jackson as an example, the pass can make sense.
People who are not traveling West next season and don't love Stratton, this pass is worse than the previously-offered MAX.

Also, the MAX was $599 the 1st year, then $629 last year, not $779... unless you mixed up the wording of MAX and EPIC in your post.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

max got up to $779 if you didn't buy early, I think


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## Zand (Feb 22, 2018)

With all of the unlimited skiing they're giving you in the west, the best they could do for unlimited in the east is just Stratton? Even if they threw loon in there it would be infinitely better.

The only thing that's making me consider this is the addition of sugarbush. Otherwise what a slap in the face to the entire east coast.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> max got up to $779 if you didn't buy early, I think


Okay... but this is early-season IKON Pass pricing... right?  So $779 is irrelevant because IKON's price will probably jump too after the early-season pricing is over.  Probably to something like $749/$1,049 or $1,100.



Zand said:


> With all of the unlimited skiing they're giving you in the west, the best they could do for unlimited in the east is just Stratton? Even if they threw loon in there it would be infinitely better.


That's a good point!


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## FBGM (Feb 22, 2018)

This pass is tits. So much better then epic fail pass. Lots of options.


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## Zand (Feb 22, 2018)

Maybe this time next year we'll be seeing Jay on the epic pass. That would be a no brainier purchase.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

or jay on the ikon pass.

and I agree that whichever one gets jay/burke will be making a serious play for my business


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## Killingtime (Feb 22, 2018)

Paid $349 for my Max Pass last year as an add-on and beat the s--t out of it. Steamboat/Gore/Loon/Windham/Belleayre/St Anne. Gonna miss the Catskills for an easy day trip and Gore as a low cost way to ski a fun mountain. The Sugarbush addition is cool though. The question is Wyoming or Utah?


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

The base pass is almost definitely targeted at a replacement for the RMSP. 

I wish there was either 1) an add-on option or 2) that the Boyne resorts weren't all lumped together. If you got 5 days at SL, SR, and Loon each, the base pass would be what I'd get and I would be stoked.

Don't know if I will be getting this yet. I do 10 days out west and 40 back east or so. so $899 is steep for what I'll ski as I will need another pass besides this, even if I get the $899 version (I'm not skiing more than 3ish days at Stratton). The only reason I'm looking is because they got Sugarbush added to it. That was amazing of them to get SB on the pass as they really needed one more eastern destination.

I'll be interested in the MCP this year. Probably not Vail even if they get another eastern resort as I'd be too concerned about crowds.


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## Zermatt (Feb 22, 2018)

Prior FAQ:

Will any other mountains be added? No...this is the final list.

Final list....added Sugarbush.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

also added revelstoke, pretty substantial adds. not complaining.


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## speden (Feb 22, 2018)

This looks like a really strong offering for my situation. I can't get that much time off work to ski enough days for the limits to really matter, and the list of eastern resorts is good except for Stratton. 

 I was thinking of two trips out west next season and the mountains on the list cover a lot of geography, so it should be possible to avoid a region that doesn't get the goods. Might have to throw in a Canada trip too. Revelstoke would be very interesting to me.

Bummer that it doesn't have any days at WaWa. Would probably have to pony up for a few night sessions there for days when I get the shakes and need a fix, but that's not too costly.


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## boston_e (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> The only people who seem to think this pass is worse must post on this board



Right and this is an northeast skiing and snowboarding forum.  Clearly, unless someone really likes Stratton, or is in a position to take multiple western trips, this is a step down from Max.




AdironRider said:


> For any Eastern skier that is debating an Epic purchase, this is a no brainer. Compared to the Max pass (which is 779 bucks) the tradeoffs are way better.



I completely disagree about this being better than Max for the northeast skier.  Unless you really love Stratton what makes it better?  Apart from unlimited at Stratton there are fewer days in NY / New England overall, fewer eastern options, a higher price tag and no add on option.

I think this IKON pass is a total fail for most New England based skiers when compared to what the Max pass was.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

I don't know about it being "better" as a whole, but it is acceptable for sure, and I'm not angry like I thought I would be. also, sugarbush is better than any eastern mountain that was on max. max's huge gaping hole was good terrain in northern vt.


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## NYDB (Feb 22, 2018)

As someone who has a house in Southern VT and was planning to take the family out west next year (and maybe take a boy's trip too) , this gives me a lot of options.  K is great.  Bush too.  This and a Magic pass will work nicely.


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## sankaty (Feb 22, 2018)

Unless something has changed, the Ikon Pass does not include Pico.  It seems so strange that it wouldn't, but according to this article, it's explicitly not included per the Killington CEO:

http://mountaintimes.info/killington-joins-ski-industry-new-ikon-pass/

I hope that changes.

I understand that the Ikon pass is great for lots of people, but for folks like me who consider Pico their home mountain, it's a terrible deal.  My Pico pass plus MAX add-on last year was around $680 for me.  If I still want to ski unlimited at Pico, the Pico pass plus Ikon base would be around $1000.  That's a huge increase, and we lose the option to ski Okemo, which is actually the closest mountain to where we stay.


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## TheArchitect (Feb 22, 2018)

For me this is a great pass, at least for next year, but only because they added Sugarbush.  $600 for the base pass for me and $150 for my son is less than what we'd pay for SB tickets and now my trip to Jackson Hole next year is covered.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I don't know about it being "better" as a whole, but it is acceptable for sure, and I'm not angry like I thought I would be. also, sugarbush is better than any eastern mountain that was on max. max's huge gaping hole was good terrain in northern vt.



This. I'm looking at this pass not as my main pass (not enough days), but as a cost-effective way to ski Sugarbush, the Boyne Mountains(ish) and some amazing western destinations.

Were I not going out west, this would suck. If I was only able to buy 1 pass, this would also suck. MAX was cheaper, but this has better mountains by FAR.

I may be going back to Ragged next year. Not sure if I trust Peaks snowmaking in marginal winters. Opening Crotched a month after Wachusett this year was really frustrating.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> the Face and Gore both have better terrain (but less snow) than the VT and ME offerings.


  What are you smoking?


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> also, sugarbush is better than any eastern mountain that was on max. max's huge gaping hole was good terrain in northern vt.



No, Sugarbush sucks. Everyone should stay far away!  :wink:


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

gore was the best tree skiing available in the east on this year's max, and whiteface has the slides but they are never open

i'd take sugarbush over gore/whiteface tho


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## lerops (Feb 22, 2018)

From a NY perspective and Boston perspective, the negatives are similar. Closer mountains are gone, Catskills and Adirondacks for NY skiers and S NH for Boston folks. But Boston skiers are complaining a lot more. 

I think the most recent Max pass was to good to be true. 

If this was offered 3 years ago, East coast skiers would be crazy happy. Our reference point shifted with the recent Max pass. 

I have to decide between Base and Full, but I am definitely buying. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## JimG. (Feb 22, 2018)

Choosing Stratton as the only unlimited days eastern mountain is a total deal breaker for me, along with no more NY mountains. I would have considered Ikon if Killington was the unlimited eastern hill but at $899 the Ikon would be the same price as a K/Pico pass so I understand the business logic that it would be a non-starter for K. I don't care about western locations.

So I will be getting a Killington/Pico season pass and a midweek Peaks pass.


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## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

I might consider the base it if the boyne was 5 at each. Also losing Sunapee was a negative as they are only 25 minutes from me.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

JimG. said:


> Choosing Stratton as the only unlimited days eastern mountain is a total deal breaker for me, along with no more NY mountains. I would have considered Ikon if Killington was the unlimited eastern hill but at $899 the Ikon would be the same price as a K/Pico pass so I understand the business logic that it would be a non-starter for K. I don't care about western locations.
> 
> So I will be getting a Killington/Pico season pass and a midweek Peaks pass.



It isn't a business decision from a K perspective. It is the fact that K is not owned by Alterra. Stratton is. Alterra runs the pass product and understandably has their own resorts as the unlimited option. Then they invited other resorts to partner with them for x number of days of those partner resorts.


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## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

lerops said:


> From a NY perspective and Boston perspective, the negatives are similar. Closer mountains are gone, Catskills and Adirondacks for NY skiers and S NH for Boston folks. But Boston skiers are complaining a lot more.
> 
> I think the most recent Max pass was to good to be true.
> 
> ...



What are the times on your signature:

Thunder Ridge 0:35
Mohawk 1:20 ; Sundown 1:35 ; Catamount 1:40 ; Shawnee 1:50
Camelback / Butternut / Hunter 2:00; Belleayre 2:05
Plattekill 2:30; Berkshire East 2:50
Bromley 3:10 ; Mt Snow 3:20 ; Stratton / Magic 3:25 ; Gore 3:30 ; Okemo 3:40
Crotched 3:45 ; Sunapee 3:50; Pico 3:55 ; Killington 4:05 ; Whiteface 4:15
Sugarbush / Cannon / Bolton Valley 4:50 ; Stowe / MRG 4:55 ; Smuggs 5:05 
Jay Peak 5:30 ; Sunday River 5:55 ; Sugarloaf / Tremblant 6:45 ; Saddleback 7:00


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## JimG. (Feb 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> It isn't a business decision from a K perspective. It is the fact that K is not owned by Alterra. Stratton is. Alterra runs the pass product and understandably has their own resorts as the unlimited option. Then they invited other resorts to partner with them for x number of days of those partner resorts.



Semantics for me. I could never justify having Stratton as my only unlimited eastern mountain when K is no further away and undeniably far superior.

I'm actually pretty happy about this development, I have been waiting for the push I needed to get a K season pass. And even though I am no PEAKS fan a midweek pass at Hunter (which despite PEAKS efforts to screw up is still the best Catskills mountain and quite pleasant on weekdays) works for me and the bonus is I get Mt. Snow and Wildcat back as midweek options.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

JimG. said:


> Semantics for me. I could never justify having Stratton as my only unlimited eastern mountain when K is no further away and undeniably far superior.



Oh I completely agree with you there...was just pointing out why it is the way it is as I've seen numerous comments from people wishing somewhere else in the east was the unlimited option. The problem is Alterra doesn't own any other resorts in New England.


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## boston_e (Feb 22, 2018)

Yup... obviously driven by Alterra with Powder / Boyne etc just along for the ride.

Looking at it more, this pass is a non-starter for my family.  We will likely do our usual Pico pass with Killington spring pass, or a full Killingotn / Pico pass.


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## mbedle (Feb 22, 2018)

I'm going to have to disagree with the fact that Stratton is the only one unlimited in the east because it is owned by Alterra. Copper and Eldora are owned by Powdr and they have unlimited access under the Ikon Pass. Based on that, I am not really sure what the driver was for only have one unlimited resort in the east.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with the fact that Stratton is the only one unlimited in the east because it is owned by Alterra. Copper and Eldora are owned by Powdr and they have unlimited access under the Ikon Pass. Based on that, I am not really sure what the driver was for only have one unlimited resort in the east.



that's because this is a straight up replacement for the rocky mountain super pass. if they didn't offer those unlimited, there would be Colorado rioting and mass exodus to epic pass.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that's because this is a straight up replacement for the rocky mountain super pass. if they didn't offer those unlimited, there would be Colorado rioting and mass exodus to epic pass.



Right...Copper and Eldora are the only two exceptions and that had to be to make it competitive with Epic in CO as a replacement for the RMSP. Every other unlimited resort on the Ikon pass is an Alterra resort. MAX itself wasn't unlimited so there was less of a driver to offer multiple unlimited options in the East with the new Ikon pass.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> The only people who seem to think this pass is worse must post on this board, as its a small minority compared to those who think its better, this is 10 times better than the Max in terms of quality of terrain (outside of the NY resorts being dropped) and days offered.
> 
> For any Eastern skier that is debating an Epic purchase, this is a no brainer. Compared to the Max pass (which is 779 bucks) the tradeoffs are way better.
> 
> ...


If you actually tried to back up your claim, you would see that on each of the mountain's Facebook pages that posted this deal, it is almost universally an AWFUL response from customers.  I have gone through all the comments on Sugarloaf, Killington and Sunday River... not a single post in favor of the IKON Pass.  The majority of the comments on the Teton Gravity Research FB Post are also negative, and that is a much broader audience than New England/East Coast.  I think I saw 2 positive comments out of 50+ on TGR.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that's because this is a straight up replacement for the rocky mountain super pass. if they didn't offer those unlimited, there would be Colorado rioting and mass exodus to epic pass.



This. Copper and Eldora wouldn't be able to survive in CO without unlimited access on this pass, most likely. I bet they sold very few exclusive passes these past few years and Alterra would steal even more from them with WP/Steamboat still together.

In contrast, Killington and the Boyne mountains are still doing great. I've heard the NE pass does extremely well for Boyne at the current pricing.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> If you actually tried to back up your claim, you would see that on each of the mountain's Facebook pages that posted this deal, it is almost universally an AWFUL response from customers.  I have gone through all the comments on Sugarloaf, Killington and Sunday River... not a single post in favor of the IKON Pass.  The majority of the comments on the Teton Gravity Research FB Post are also negative, and that is a much broader audience than New England/East Coast.  I think I saw 2 positive comments out of 50+ on TGR.



Hah...I hadn't thought of looking at the FB comments on the announcements. Was just looking at the ones on the Killington post about Icon and some are absolutely brutal. I did see one comment from someone on Killington's post that thought the new pass was great (but they travel out west a lot I gather from the resorts they were happy about).


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

the facebook comments on the eastern mountains are pretty funny. people are losing their shit. and the less informed (90% of the people out there, we're an outlier group of obsessives) are all like 'don't worry just get max again', lol.

i doubt the western places are getting any hate. if they are, its probably about the influx of easterners that will flood Jackson :razz:


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## Oncefast (Feb 22, 2018)

Any word yet on what areas will allow walk on access? I hate waiting on line.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> If you actually tried to back up your claim, you would see that on each of the mountain's Facebook pages that posted this deal, it is almost universally an AWFUL response from customers.  I have gone through all the comments on Sugarloaf, Killington and Sunday River... not a single post in favor of the IKON Pass.  The majority of the comments on the Teton Gravity Research FB Post are also negative, and that is a much broader audience than New England/East Coast.  I think I saw 2 positive comments out of 50+ on TGR.





cdskier said:


> Hah...I hadn't thought of looking at the FB comments on the announcements. Was just looking at the ones on the Killington post about Icon and some are absolutely brutal. I did see one comment from someone on Killington's post that thought the new pass was great (but they travel out west a lot I gather from the resorts they were happy about).





KustyTheKlown said:


> the facebook comments on the eastern mountains are pretty funny. people are losing their shit. and the less informed (90% of the people out there, we're an outlier group of obsessives) are all like 'don't worry just get max again', lol.
> 
> i doubt the western places are getting any hate. if they are, its probably about the influx of easterners that will flood Jackson :razz:



RMSP passholders are actually upset. Seen quite a few of them posting on the main Ikon page. Also Mammoth passholders are pissed too (I think $899 is more than the Cali pass previously).

Unfortunately for Alterra, they likely were actually banking on grabbing a bunch of eastern visits out west. They are going to be disappointed I think. I know I might be getting the MCP depending on the mountains it has. Makes me think the MCP will go bye bye next year if it steals from Ikon too much.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 22, 2018)

Jully said:


> RMSP passholders are actually upset. Seen quite a few of them posting on the main Ikon page.



What are the RMSP passholders upset about? I don't see much that was taken away from them...but I do see a lot more they now would get. Not sure what the early rate on the RMSP was, but the Ikon Base at $599 basically gives unlimited access to the same resorts they had on the RMSP and then some...


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

yea this seems the same as RMSP plus a lot more unless I'm missing something

RMSP may have been $459 early bird? so it could be a price bump gripe? but they get Jackson altabird etc. i guess CO homers don't feel the urge to travel as much...


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> What are the RMSP passholders upset about? I don't see much that was taken away from them...but I do see a lot more they now would get. Not sure what the early rate on the RMSP was, but the Ikon Base at $599 basically gives unlimited access to the same resorts they had on the RMSP and then some...





KustyTheKlown said:


> yea this seems the same as RMSP plus a lot more unless I'm missing something
> 
> RMSP may have been $459 early bird? so it could be a price bump gripe? but they get Jackson altabird etc. i guess CO homers don't feel the urge to travel as much...



I believe it was a bit under $500. That is probably the only gripe? Steamboat is now blacked out too, so they're stuck with Copper and WP (both get BIG crowds). Much less of a big deal than the change for easterners! 

All in all I think it is just different. For us back east this is clearly designed to drive people out west, it is not meant to be a standalone eastern pass like MAX ended up being for many. If you're looking to ski less than 20 days back east and 20 or more days out west, this is probably a huge improvement over MAX.

Out west Alterra seems to be looking to steal market share from Vail through a bunch of perk days at other mountains.


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## Zand (Feb 22, 2018)

Have to imagine with all the eastern hate on this pass, someone might look to swoop in and take advantage. This is Vail's big change to really pick up the eastern market.


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## abc (Feb 22, 2018)

Jully said:


> I believe it was a bit under $500. That is probably the only gripe? Steamboat is now blacked out too, so they're stuck with Copper and WP (both get BIG crowds). Much less of a big deal than the change for easterners!


Price is definitely an issue. I know quite a few people who got the RMSP and ski WP and Copper exclusively, but only a limited days. Their break-even point is now higher. Keep in mind when your home mountain is Copper+WP, you have it good and there's really not a whole lot of motivation to go ski anywhere else. So it's a pure price increase for no good benefit. 

The black out on Steamboat also hurts some. I used to get the RMSP and spent Christmas at Steamboat, the only mountain that has reasonable lines and very often GOOD EARLY SEASON SNOW! Granted, since I travel to other mountains so I'll deal with losing SB over Christmas. But for Denver locals, again it's a pure lose.

What I think quite likely to happen, is SOME of those complainers WILL drive to Aspen for those 5 days. And they WILL change their mind about the balance of the new pass! 

Alterra is probably banking on some of them being impressed by Aspen they may even go all the way to Jackson and Big Sky.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 22, 2018)

same distance approximately denver>steamboat and denver>aspen, no?


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## xlr8r (Feb 22, 2018)

Put me in the camp of MAX pass holder (for the last 3 seasons) that is not going to buy Ikon.  The brilliance of MAX was its simplicity, every mountain had 5 days, every mountain had no blackouts, every mountain was effectively treated the same on the pass.  The no blackouts was huge and allowed for so much flexibility, I play my ski planning in the east week to week, and sometimes day to day.  MAX allowed me to go to Vermont for a weekend if there were great conditions, go to New Hampshire if I just needed a day trip, or go to Wachusett if I just needed an escape for a few hours.  Ikon is way too complex in comparison.  Forcing you to plan ahead and is designed to be limiting in comparison to the flexibility of MAX.



Zand said:


> Have to imagine with all the eastern hate on this pass, someone might look to swoop in and take advantage. This is Vail's big change to really pick up the eastern market.



I agree that there is probably another shoe to drop.  Some possiblilities:

Crested Butte as it stands now has been completely left out of the Colorado pass wars, so Triple Peaks could be joining up with Epic possibly similar to what Telluride did.  Which would then put Okemo and Sunapee on Epic.

Mountain Collective supposedly is still going to happen for 18/19 but almost all current MC areas are now on Ikon.  This leads me to believe MC will look very different next year.  The only MC mountains in North America not on Ikon are Snowbasin, Sun Valley, and Taos.


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## Zand (Feb 22, 2018)

xlr8r said:


> Put me in the camp of MAX pass holder (for the last 3 seasons) that is not going to buy Ikon.  The brilliance of MAX was its simplicity, every mountain had 5 days, every mountain had no blackouts, every mountain was effectively treated the same on the pass.  The no blackouts was huge and allowed for so much flexibility, I play my ski planning in the east week to week, and sometimes day to day.  MAX allowed me to go to Vermont for a weekend if there were great conditions, go to New Hampshire if I just needed a day trip, or go to Wachusett if I just needed an escape for a few hours.  Ikon is way too complex in comparison.  Forcing you to plan ahead and is designed to be limiting in comparison to the flexibility of MAX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha I originally included Okemo and Sunapee in my post initially in that they might be the first to find some kind of new pass group. Epic would make bank if they had those 2, Jay, and Burke.


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## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

Zand said:


> Haha I originally included Okemo and Sunapee in my post initially in that they might be the first to find some kind of new pass group. Epic would make bank if they had those 2, Jay, and Burke.



I would buy in on that.


----------



## elks (Feb 22, 2018)

Not very appealing. Still like the Peaks Pass option a lot better... assuming it doesn't change from the past 2 seasons.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 22, 2018)

They don't want you to ski in the Northeast, they want you to travel west, so you can spend all the rest of your money on accommodations, food booze e.c.t. vs. day-tripping in the Northeast.


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## JimG. (Feb 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Oh I completely agree with you there...was just pointing out why it is the way it is as I've seen numerous comments from people wishing somewhere else in the east was the unlimited option. The problem is Alterra doesn't own any other resorts in New England.



All good; happy it worked out this way.

My best 5 days this season were either at K or Pico.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I would buy in on that.



I can't imagine the crowds at Sunapee if it went Epic. It would be convenient, but also potentially dreadful.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2018)

kelly001 said:


> Not very appealing. Still like the Peaks Pass option a lot better... assuming it doesn't change from the past 2 seasons.



Peaks now has a lock on the most variety in the east. Favorite part of Peaks is that it offers uncrowded options. Other passes really don't have that. Burke would be a welcome addition to Ikon or may be Epic, though unclear what the crowd situation would become if that addition happened.


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## abc (Feb 23, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They don't want you to ski in the Northeast, they want you to travel west, so you can spend all the rest of your money on accommodations, food booze e.c.t. vs. day-tripping in the Northeast.


I think there's some truth in that. 

At the minimum, they want skier demographic that are in the habit of traveling to destination resorts. MAX may be great for skiing locally. But where's the profit in that? 

Of the northeast mountains, which are the closest destination resorts? Stowe, K'mart are the best known. So is Tramblant. Sugarbush is working its way up that rank. Stratton and Okemo on the other hand, are largely second home owners who will not travel. The rest of the formerly MAX participants are all day trip mountains. Sure there're some who will travel. But the percentage aren't nearly the same as those who ski at Stowe and K. Those are the captive audience Ikon and Epic want!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2018)

What I find most interesting is that of all the Eastern options on the pass it's Stratton that offered unlimited days.  Stratton is the area on the pass with the greatest problem with crowds with perhaps Loon coming in a close second.  I guess the thought is that Stratton draws the demographic of skier most likely able to afford multiple trips west each season.   

IMO the Ikon is definitely a step down in quality for someone who wants to ski in the East exclusively.  Great to see Sugarbush on there, but that doesn't make up for the reduction of other areas.  

I didn't read the full information.  Is Ikon adding an add on option like Maxx did?  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Zermatt (Feb 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> What I find most interesting is that of all the Eastern options on the pass it's Stratton that offered unlimited days.  Stratton is the area on the pass with the greatest problem with crowds with perhaps Loon coming in a close second.  I guess the thought is that Stratton draws the demographic of skier most likely able to afford multiple trips west each season.
> 
> IMO the Ikon is definitely a step down in quality for someone who wants to ski in the East exclusively.  Great to see Sugarbush on there, but that doesn't make up for the reduction of other areas.
> 
> ...



What did a full season pass cost at Stratton this season?

This seems like a bargain for them and especially for kids. Can’t see how this doesn’t add to the crowds at Stratton.


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## Smellytele (Feb 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I didn't read the full information.  Is Ikon adding an add on option like Maxx did?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I didn't see that option but I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## LookinForTreeS (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> What did a full season pass cost at Stratton this season?
> 
> This seems like a bargain for them and especially for kids. Can’t see how this doesn’t add to the crowds at Stratton.



The strattitude pass was 380 dollars. For ages 18-31. Mine came with a $50 voucher for any of the shops there too


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I didn't see that option but I was wondering the same thing.



No add on sadly.

Stratton will be offering Stratton only season passes too I heard. That means this will truly just be an infux of new unlimited passholders.

For the sake or current Stratton regularly it is vital that the Base Ikon has blackouts and a 5 day max.


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## LItoCOtoMA (Feb 23, 2018)

What is the price point for you to buy an add on to a qualifying season pass? $350?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## boston_e (Feb 23, 2018)

LItoCOtoMA said:


> What is the price point for you to buy an add on to a qualifying season pass? $350?



Looked back at my receipt and it was $329 for an adult and $229 for youth.  It was a no-brainer for our family.


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## skimagic (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> What did a full season pass cost at Stratton this season?
> 
> This seems like a bargain for them and especially for kids. Can’t see how this doesn’t add to the crowds at Stratton.



I picked up an adult season pass with normal holiday blackouts for $399+ tax.  Dirt cheap option for day trips from the lowlands.  

Yes, Stratton cannot handle crowds well if gondala is closed for wind.  I haven't heard if they are going to upgrade the Snowbowl lift this year. Surveyed last spring.

I'm leaning to an ikon pass with a west trip but will have to hit smaller cheaper hills to fill in some days.  Sugarbush is too far for a sane day trip.


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## Edd (Feb 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> No add on sadly.



Is that confirmed? I remember last year that add-on information was on the relevant ski area sites. I don’t recall if it was on the Max site. Looking at the Ikon FAQ, I’m not seeing add-ons mentioned one way or the other. 

Also of note, on the Ikon FAQ page, the question of if other ski areas will be added is answered with “This is the current lineup for the 2018-2019 season”, which seems to leave the door open for changes.


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## sankaty (Feb 23, 2018)

It's hard to figure how this could be worse for folks like me who ski the Pico/Killington/Okemo corridor and go for a trip out west (Copper in our case).  For a family of four, our Pico Passes plus MAX add-on totaled around $2300.  We've used our 5 Copper days, will definitely use our 5 Killington and Okemo days, and have already skied Pico 5 times.  Making some very optimistic assumptions, the same amount of ski days via the Ikon base option would cost us about $3650.  That's an increase of about $1350, or about 63%.

I hope they make some changes that will make this more palatable, but I have little hope.  For now, I'm hoping there are enough changes to the Mountain Collective to make that plus a Pico Pass a viable lower-cost option.


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## boston_e (Feb 23, 2018)

sankaty said:


> It's hard to figure how this could be worse for folks like me who ski the Pico/Killington/Okemo corridor and go for a trip out west (Copper in our case).  For a family of four, our Pico Passes plus MAX add-on totaled around $2300.  We've used our 5 Copper days, will definitely use our 5 Killington and Okemo days, and have already skied Pico 5 times.  Making some very optimistic assumptions, the same amount of ski days via the Ikon base option would cost us about $3650.  That's an increase of about $1350, or about 63%.
> 
> I hope they make some changes that will make this more palatable, but I have little hope.  For now, I'm hoping there are enough changes to the Mountain Collective to make that plus a Pico Pass a viable lower-cost option.



Do you mean it isn't hard to figure how the Ikon would be worse?

Our situation is similar to yours, and I figure the IKON will be much more expensive than the max pass add on option.


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## sankaty (Feb 23, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Do you mean it isn't hard to figure how the Ikon would be worse?
> 
> Our situation is similar to yours, and I figure the IKON will be much more expensive than the max pass add on option.



Ha!  I meant that in the "This is so bad it's hard to see how it could be worse" sense.  I see the ambiguity.

I'm so bummed.  I know it's just marketing, but I'm finding all the "We're so proud to be part of the Ikon Pass" messaging to be profoundly irritating.  To me, it reads "we're so proud to be pricing you out of skiing our mountains."  Or maybe, "great news, your ski budget won't allow you to ski here next year!"


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

Edd said:


> Is that confirmed? I remember last year that add-on information was on the relevant ski area sites. I don’t recall if it was on the Max site. Looking at the Ikon FAQ, I’m not seeing add-ons mentioned one way or the other.
> 
> Also of note, on the Ikon FAQ page, the question of if other ski areas will be added is answered with “This is the current lineup for the 2018-2019 season”, which seems to leave the door open for changes.



I haven't heard personally from anyone that it is confirmed, but add on information was clearly listed on the MAX site (there was a blue table with pricing with Add-on next to full MAX) last year. Nothing on Ikon this year. Makes sense they won't advertise that they're ditching the best value from the MAX pass.

Additionally Sunday River has their pass website set up for next year (all prices TBA) and there is no add-on option listed. 

Looking on social media, the Boyne mountains have not mentioned anything about an add-on too. They're saying if you want to ski Boyne more than 5 or 7 days you buy a NE pass and Ikon pass for out west.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> I haven't heard personally from anyone that it is confirmed, but add on information was clearly listed on the MAX They're saying if you want to ski Boyne more than 5 or 7 days you buy a NE pass and Ikon pass for out west.



so basically theyre saying get fucked?


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## abc (Feb 23, 2018)

I guess people demand whatever pass in previous year, or something better the following year?


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## Zermatt (Feb 23, 2018)

Why is it so hard to accept that the MAX Pass is dead because it was financially unsustainable for the ski areas? 

Yes, it was a killer deal for skiers. But when they split up the revenue at the end of the year it was clearly a horrible deal for the areas.


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## medfordmike (Feb 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> I haven't heard personally from anyone that it is confirmed, but add on information was clearly listed on the MAX site (there was a blue table with pricing with Add-on next to full MAX) last year. Nothing on Ikon this year. Makes sense they won't advertise that they're ditching the best value from the MAX pass.
> 
> Additionally Sunday River has their pass website set up for next year (all prices TBA) and there is no add-on option listed.
> 
> Looking on social media, the Boyne mountains have not mentioned anything about an add-on too. They're saying if you want to ski Boyne more than 5 or 7 days you buy a NE pass and Ikon pass for out west.



At least on the Killington Facebook feed they answered this question as "there will not be an add on for Killington passes next season". They also said the former Okemo reciprocal days will not be coming back.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

medfordmike said:


> At least on the Killington Facebook feed they answered this question as "there will not be an add on for Killington passes next season". They also said the former Okemo reciprocal days will not be coming back.



Pretty much confirms it then.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> Why is it so hard to accept that the MAX Pass is dead because it was financially unsustainable for the ski areas?
> 
> Yes, it was a killer deal for skiers. But when they split up the revenue at the end of the year it was clearly a horrible deal for the areas.



Pretty certain MAX was reimbursing ski areas between $50 and $60 for a ticket. That is pretty standard voucher/4 pack pricing for most ski areas. Doubt any were getting screwed by having the MAX. Alterra just thinks they can make MORE with the Ikon, and I think that is right.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2018)

So this deal is not really a surprise IMHO.  I figured it would be an unlimited pass at Alterra areas and a pass with a few days at the others.  The big surprises for me are:

*  No unlimited skiing at Deer Valley;
*  No unlimited skiing at Aspen areas;
*  The HIGH number of "days" at each partner resort;
*  The few states where this is a good deal--CA and CO really are it.

The fact that they did not include DV tells me that they intend to keep that a higher tier destination and fears that it would sell-out are not to be.  The same can be said for Aspen and its resorts.....they want to be a part of a multi-pass deal but on their own terms.  

The seven-day benefit at partner areas is an interesting number.  If you are in New England, you can ski a fair number of days at Killington, Stratton, Sugarbush, and Boyne's resorts to make it work.  If you look closely you see that many resorts force you to split those 7 days (Loon, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Alta, Snowbird, etc).  This is not a good pass if you are in Utah.  

And that leads me to the last point--really if you are in CA or CO this is a good option because you have some good unlimited options...assuming you are willing to go to each one.  If you are anywhere else it is hit or miss.  

I don't really see this is as big of a deal as they were crowing it would be.  But my expectations were that it would be a combination unlimited/partnership pass as it is.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> so basically theyre saying get fucked?



Exactly


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## Zermatt (Feb 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> Pretty certain MAX was reimbursing ski areas between $50 and $60 for a ticket. That is pretty standard voucher/4 pack pricing for most ski areas. Doubt any were getting screwed by having the MAX. Alterra just thinks they can make MORE with the Ikon, and I think that is right.


They weren't reimbursing more than they took in. 

If people were skiing 20 days you can't pay the area $50 a day.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> They weren't reimbursing more than they took in.
> 
> If people were skiing 20 days you can't pay the area $50 a day.



yea, I skied 45 days on max last year, and will hit 45 again this year. that would be $2250 of revenue to the areas on my $600 pass purchase. I doubt there are enough people underusing the pass to make up that difference.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> They weren't reimbursing more than they took in.
> 
> If people were skiing 20 days you can't pay the area $50 a day.



That may have been Intrawest's problem to reimburse partners since they owned the pass. Maybe they just split up profits, between Powdr, Boyne, and Intrawest, but that would be a mighty complicated formula and with the number of partner mountains that were independent that got onboard, I suspect it was  a little simpler and better for the mountains.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, I skied 45 days on max last year, and will hit 45 again this year. that would be $2250 of revenue to the areas on my $600 pass purchase. I doubt there are enough people underusing the pass to make up that difference.



Very true, and hence why Alterra thinks they can make MORE with Ikon. Just sucks for all of us.


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## Zermatt (Feb 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, I skied 45 days on max last year, and will hit 45 again this year. that would be $2250 of revenue to the areas on my $600 pass purchase. I doubt there are enough people underusing the pass to make up that difference.



You're the one who brought the whole thing down!


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## boston_e (Feb 23, 2018)

billo said:


> Why is it so hard to accept that the MAX Pass is dead because it was financially unsustainable for the ski areas?
> 
> Yes, it was a killer deal for skiers. But when they split up the revenue at the end of the year it was clearly a horrible deal for the areas.



If that is the case, they maybe should have just re-structured how each mountain was reimbursed for skier visits.

I know plenty of people who had the Max Pass who ended up skiing 15-20 days on it, where they might have only skied 8 or 10 times if they were just having to buy day tickets and picking and choosing the ideal weather days to go.

Given the struggles of resorts, especially on marginal snow weekends, I would think that simply getting people to the mountain to buy lunches, apres ski beers, gloves, lessons etc would be a big hurdle to cross and the lift ticket reimbursement is a somewhat insignificant part of their overall income.

In other words, given that they are already there spinning the lifts, would they rather have someone there on a $25 lift ticket and have them also spend other money at the resort on lunch and accessories, or would they rather have them stay home and spend $0.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

I mean, yes, and no. there are a ton of days where I do not spend a nickel on site. I am a beer and sandwich in a backpack kind of guy almost always. on the other hand, there definitely have been the occasional on site beers and food purchases and merch purchases for gifts and stuff, which I would not have spent money on had I bought a lift ticket. I just don't think those purchases add up to the lost income from lift tix. 

I do agree in general that skiing is, for most resorts, secondary to services. the whole epic pass mantra is let them ski cheap and then fuck em good on lodging and food/bev


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## Killingtime (Feb 23, 2018)

boston_e said:


> If that is the case, they maybe should have just re
> Yeah that's the way I think they are looking at it. Skied four days at Steamboat on the Max Pass and spent a ton on food and drinks at the mountain. Not sure of the revenue sharing structure of these passes but apparently it makes sense to do it.


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## Zand (Feb 23, 2018)

I don't buy into the revenue thing here. Like others have said, lift ticket revenue should be just an extra bonus to ski area. No matter how many people are there skiing, they're still paying the same amount of employees to do the exact same work, running the same lifts, lighting the same buildings etc. Sure some people don't spend a dime when they go skiing must most (and especially families) are going to buy lunch, equipment, gifts, drinks, etc instead of not being there and spending 0. 

Every single eastern resort that was on the Max pass except Stratton is going to lose a decent chunk of that revenue and those people aren't showing up to buy day tickets.


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## boston_e (Feb 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I mean, yes, and no. there are a ton of days where I do not spend a nickel on site. I am a beer and sandwich in a backpack kind of guy almost always. on the other hand, there definitely have been the occasional on site beers and food purchases and merch purchases for gifts and stuff, which I would not have spent money on had I bought a lift ticket. I just don't think those purchases add up to the lost income from lift tix.
> 
> I do agree in general that skiing is, for most resorts, secondary to services. the whole epic pass mantra is let them ski cheap and then fuck em good on lodging and food/bev



I would guess that you are more in the minority though on that.  I would think that most (even if they pack lunch) end up spending something while onsite.... food / drink items to supplement the packed lunches.. hot cocoas etc etc.  More will most likely just buy lunch at the resort, along with other items needed in the shop when their kids forgot their neck gators / mittens etc etc.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I mean, yes, and no. there are a ton of days where I do not spend a nickel on site. I am a beer and sandwich in a backpack kind of guy almost always. on the other hand, there definitely have been the occasional on site beers and food purchases and merch purchases for gifts and stuff, which I would not have spent money on had I bought a lift ticket. I just don't think those purchases add up to the lost income from lift tix.
> 
> I do agree in general that skiing is, for most resorts, secondary to services. the whole epic pass mantra is let them ski cheap and then fuck em good on lodging and food/bev



Alterra is clearly about driving destination skiers to their resorts too. The list of benefits for the Ikon pass is rather impressive while MAX literally had nothing. MAX was a pass about skiing, Ikon is a pass about accessing different resorts. Different model and will be way more profitable.

Again I'm still potentially getting Ikon because, while it isn't a great deal, it is the best deal (by far) to ski some big names out west and back east all with one pass.


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## boston_e (Feb 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> The list of benefits for the Ikon pass is rather impressive while MAX literally had nothing. MAX was a pass about skiing, Ikon is a pass about accessing different resorts. Different model and will be way more profitable.



I'm not sure I follow this logic... The list of resorts is somewhat different, but Max had actually more resorts to access than IKON?  Unless you really like the IKON mountains more than the Max Pass mountains how is the list of benefits more impressive than what Max offered?  (Unless one of the unlimited resorts on the pass is your "home base" resort?)


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

10% retail and food/bev discounts at alterra resorts only (with no hard goods/merch included), some 25% off friends and family tix, and lodging discounts which will surely still be way more expensive than staying at independent lodging options slightly off site. nothing there is so sexy in my opinion.


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## Jully (Feb 23, 2018)

boston_e said:


> I'm not sure I follow this logic... The list of resorts is somewhat different, but Max had actually more resorts to access than IKON?  Unless you really like the IKON mountains more than the Max Pass mountains how is the list of benefits more impressive than what Max offered?  (Unless one of the unlimited resorts on the pass is your "home base" resort?)



I meant benefits being non-skiing benefits (what Kusty lists below). Fewer resorts for sure. By accessing different resorts I meant staying at and vacationing at the different resorts, as opposed to strictly skiing at them (and staying in a $55 motel the night before). I much prefer the MAX model as I brown bag and stay with friends/family/day trip, but vertical integration is the name of the game these days for profitable ski companies.



KustyTheKlown said:


> 10% retail and food/bev discounts at alterra resorts only (with no hard goods/merch included), some 25% off friends and family tix, and lodging discounts which will surely still be way more expensive than staying at independent lodging options slightly off site. nothing there is so sexy in my opinion.



Nothing sexy, and will be more expensive, but the long list is meant to generate people staying and eating and vacationing at the Alterra resorts. If I bought the Ikon I would hardly use it (maybe f&b/family tickets), but discounts like that I always view as designed to make people say "hey, we get 15% off lodging here, lets stay here" and at least think about spending their money directly at the resort.


----------



## ghughes20 (Feb 23, 2018)

As a Stratton condo owner, and someone that makes 1 (maybe 2) trips out west per year, this is a nobrainer for me.  I currently have a Stratton season pass with no blackouts and early access.  They toss in some freebies every year - free lift tickets, $100 resort credit, etc.  I believe last year I paid $1,300, + approx $650 for my 12 year old son.  Assuming I still get early access, I will save money at Stratton and get free lift tickets to a selection of mountains out west.  This is a best case scenario for me.  Very happy.

-Oh, also, I just came back from Sugarbush with my son for the holiday weekend.  (I like to go a little farther for the holiday week to avoid crowds).


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

and here you have it folks, your ikon pass target audience - wealthy new jerseyite with children and a second home at Stratton who will go west once or twice and spend a lot of money and not do it in dirtbag style

(no knock on you, you're just clearly representative of the target market)


----------



## ghughes20 (Feb 23, 2018)

But I'm not a dentist!!!  ;-).


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2018)

lol well played


----------



## machski (Feb 24, 2018)

Maybe, but as a SR based skier, the base Ikon still has some appeal for me.  Especially where Tremblant is unlimited/no black outs on the base, I could do a NE silver and Ikon base for about the same $ as a NE Gold and Max add on this year.  Of the Xmas holiday lines up with off time from work, we could join the zoo at Tremblant to avoid the Ikon and Silver blackouts.  The balance of the other blackouts (beside MLK, again Tremblant) we don't usually ski on anyway.  We'll see.  Will depend if we want to go west again end of April (Mammoth on Ikon vs Bachelor on Max).  Otherwise, a Gold NE with western Boyne benefits back in play well probably be better.

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----------



## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

Lame response from Killington regararding the Ikon pass:
http://www.killington.com/site/cult...solimano/from-the-top-killington-and-the-ikon

I still don't get why Pico isn't included.  Their line is "While Pico Mountain offers an amazing big mountain skiing/riding experience, it does not align with the other destinations included on the Ikon Pass."

What does that mean?  Will Alterra not accept Pico on the pass?

I have no way of knowing the business forces that made that resulted in the Ikon disaster.  It may be that Killington would have been very happy to continue with a MAX type arrangement, but the other mountains would not cooperate.  It would go a long way in placating me if places such as Killington made some statement along the lines of "We regret that the new pass options will result in a large price increase for some of our customers, but due to the changing nature of the ski industry, this is the best multi-mountain option that we can currently offer, and we are very excited about the product."

Instead, the subtext of all the announcements is that the Ikon is great, and they don't understand why some people are upset.

Do people think that Okemo will join one of the other consortia?  Maybe the Mountain Collective?  Other than Jay, I think they are the only major VT mountain not on a multi-region pass.


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## Zermatt (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> Lame response from Killington regararding the Ikon pass:
> http://www.killington.com/site/cult...solimano/from-the-top-killington-and-the-ikon
> 
> I still don't get why Pico isn't included.  Their line is "While Pico Mountain offers an amazing big mountain skiing/riding experience, it does not align with the other destinations included on the Ikon Pass."
> ...



Align like ski areas in Ontario? Give me a break.

Does anyone have a definitive answer regarding Pico? Everyone assumes Ikon will be valid but nobody has an answer with certainty.


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## urungus (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> Do people think that Okemo will join one of the other consortia?  Maybe the Mountain Collective?  Other than Jay, I think they are the only major VT mountain not on a multi-region pass.



Is Smuggs aligned with a multi-region pass ?


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## Zermatt (Feb 24, 2018)

The ski areas are saying good riddance to the MAX Pass.  Bringing in hoards of skiers that didn't spend any money at their mountains then having to split the measly $650ish between multiple resorts.  Get a grip, if you aren't spending money at a ski area they don't want your business.

At least with a regular season pass the ski area might have very little revenue per day if you are a heavy user....but they get to keep 100% of the revenue at the beginning of the season.  With MAX you have to share it and I assume you don't get paid up front.


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## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

urungus said:


> Is Smuggs aligned with a multi-region pass ?



I don't think so.  I forgot about Smuggs.  Great mountain, but they must average many fewer visits than Okemo, and their pass products are about half the cost.


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## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

billo said:


> Align like ski areas in Ontario? Give me a break.
> 
> Does anyone have a definitive answer regarding Pico? Everyone assumes Ikon will be valid but nobody has an answer with certainty.



Killington has said definitively that Pico will not be included in several sources.  This is from their FB page yesterday:

Andrea Schwartzman: Why does this not include pico????
Killington Resort: While Pico Mountain offers an amazing big mountain skiing/riding experience, it does not align with the other destinations included on the Ikon Pass.

I suppose (and hope) this could change, but they have been very clear that Pico is not included.

Edit:  I suppose that it's possible that they don't mean to indicate that the Killington days cannot be used at Pico (though that would be very confusing based on the above statement).  I've asked them this question directly on their FB page.  I'll let you know if they respond.


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## abc (Feb 24, 2018)

Well, this reminds me I should take advantage of my MAX pass to ski Pico this season!

It's one of my favorite mountain. A shame it'll no longer be included in next season's Ikon pass. (doesn't change my plan to get Ikon next year, just I'll try to use my 5 days this year).


p.s.

I'm re-prioritizing the rest of my northeast season by focusing more on the mountains which will no longer be on Ikon next season: Gore, Pico, Bellearye, Whiteface.

Is Sunapee worth a day or two?


----------



## Zermatt (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> Killington has said definitively that Pico will not be included in several sources.  This is from their FB page yesterday:
> 
> Andrea Schwartzman: Why does this not include pico????
> Killington Resort: While Pico Mountain offers an amazing big mountain skiing/riding experience, it does not align with the other destinations included on the Ikon Pass.
> ...



Honestly, that is not a definitive answer as to whether or not I can I use my Killington days at Pico.

I accept that you don't get 5 days at K AND 5 days at Pico (or 7).  But it blows my mind that you would prevent people from using their K days at Pico.....its like forcing people to only use their passes during holiday periods for maximum crowding.

I asked them as well on Facebook, hope they can give a clear answer.


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## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

billo said:


> Honestly, that is not a definitive answer as to whether or not I can I use my Killington days at Pico.
> 
> I accept that you don't get 5 days at K AND 5 days at Pico (or 7).  But it blows my mind that you would prevent people from using their K days at Pico.....its like forcing people to only use their passes during holiday periods for maximum crowding.
> 
> I asked them as well on Facebook, hope they can give a clear answer.



Upon further reflection, I agree that it's not definitive, but I don't know why they wouldn't just say that the total days can be split between K and Pico if that's the case.  It's almost like they are temporizing, but I can't imagine why.


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## abc (Feb 24, 2018)

billo said:


> I accept that you don't get 5 days at K AND 5 days at Pico (or 7). But it blows my mind that you would prevent people from using their K days at Pico.....its like forcing people to only use their passes during holiday periods for maximum crowding.


But, but, but...

If you're planning to ski Pico, you probably wouldn't pay through the nose to stay up at Killington village, would you?


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## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

I found this extremely illuminating comment from Okemo in response to a question on their FB page:

Okemo Mountain Resort: Hi Ellen, The Ikon group has not yet invited Okemo to the party (we even told them we'd bring the bubbly.... 




). We are exploring many different options and we'll do everything in our power to provide our guests with the best season pass options that we can.

This is both frustrating and encouraging.  It seems that Okemo would like to join Ikon, and maybe that possibility still exists (Sugarbush wasn't included in the original announcement)?  Having Okemo and Killington (and Sugarbush!) all on the Ikon would make all the difference for us.


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## machski (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> Lame response from Killington regararding the Ikon pass:
> http://www.killington.com/site/cult...solimano/from-the-top-killington-and-the-ikon
> 
> I still don't get why Pico isn't included.  Their line is "While Pico Mountain offers an amazing big mountain skiing/riding experience, it does not align with the other destinations included on the Ikon Pass."
> ...


I disagree.  Obviously from Mike's response, Intrawest (now basically Alterra) drove the Max pass.  When they killed Max, K's (and obviously Boyne too) were invited to join the new Ikon or not do it and go it alone (or see if they could get on MC).  It sounds like Alterra hand picked resorts to join, I seriously doubt they wanted Pico included (not a full time resort in many ways including not even open 7days/week).  I think Mike's explaination is valid, the choices were limited for K.

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## machski (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> I found this extremely illuminating comment from Okemo in response to a question on their FB page:
> 
> Okemo Mountain Resort: Hi Ellen, The Ikon group has not yet invited Okemo to the party (we even told them we'd bring the bubbly....
> 
> ...


True on SB, but they were on MC this year with JHMR, Snowbird and others.  Who knows why Alterra invited the resorts they did.  Maybe they felt Okemo was too similar to Stratton?

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## ghughes20 (Feb 24, 2018)

I wonder if Stratton, being a resort that is now owned by the group, pushed to not include Okemo?  Maybe they didn't want another resort option so close to Stratton?    Hopefully, this can change before next year.  

The Pico situation is very strange.


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## sankaty (Feb 24, 2018)

I asked this question of Killington via FB: Is it true that the Killington days on the Ikon Pass cannot be used at Pico?

Here is their response:  That is true. The Killington season pass will still include Pico though.

So, as crazy as it seems, the Ikon pass days will not be valid at Pico unless they change the policy.


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## Edd (Feb 24, 2018)

abc said:


> Is Sunapee worth a day or two?



I think so. Easy cruisers and beautiful views if that’s your thing. I went for the first time myself because of the Max pass and I’m glad I did.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2018)

sankaty said:


> I asked this question of Killington via FB: Is it true that the Killington days on the Ikon Pass cannot be used at Pico?
> 
> Here is their response:  That is true. The Killington season pass will still include Pico though.
> 
> So, as crazy as it seems, the Ikon pass days will not be valid at Pico unless they change the policy.



Really?  I would have thought it would have been the other way around.


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## abc (Feb 24, 2018)

Edd said:


> I think so. Easy cruisers and beautiful views if that’s your thing. I went for the first time myself because of the Max pass and I’m glad I did.


Thanks. Yes, view is "my thing". 

And easy cruiser will do for the moment since nowhere has any off-piste in play anyway. Might just be the perfect time for that visit.


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## heiusa (Feb 24, 2018)

A weekend lift ticket bought online for Pico is $62, the same ticket is $100 at killington, if you only get either 5 or 7 days at K, why would you waste it at Pico.  What I usually do is ski K on Saturday and at Pico on Sunday, since I don’t ski a full day on Sundays.  I am not sure how the Ikon pass will work, and not sure why K wouldn’t let you ski at Pico, a K ticket works at Pico, not the other way around obviously.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2018)

heiusa said:


> A weekend lift ticket bought online for Pico is $62, the same ticket is $100 at killington, if you only get either 5 or 7 days at K, why would you waste it at Pico.  What I usually do is ski K on Saturday and at Pico on Sunday, since I don’t ski a full day on Sundays.  I am not sure how the Ikon pass will work, and not sure why K wouldn’t let you ski at Pico, a K ticket works at Pico, not the other way around obviously.


Someone who prefers Pico probably doesn't look at those economics

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## abc (Feb 24, 2018)

For one thing, Killington can be madly crowded while Pico is more civilized.


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## boston_e (Feb 25, 2018)

heiusa said:


> A weekend lift ticket bought online for Pico is $62, the same ticket is $100 at killington, if you only get either 5 or 7 days at K, why would you waste it at Pico.  What I usually do is ski K on Saturday and at Pico on Sunday, since I don’t ski a full day on Sundays.  I am not sure how the Ikon pass will work, and not sure why K wouldn’t let you ski at Pico, a K ticket works at Pico, not the other way around obviously.



Unkess it is a weather pattern where the snowmaking capacity at K is needed, why would you ever go to K on a Saturday when Pico is right next door?


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## Edd (Feb 25, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Unkess it is a weather pattern where the snowmaking capacity at K is needed, why would you ever go to K on a Saturday when Pico is right next door?



I’m completely with you. If both are in decent shape, the vibe/crowds at Pico are far superior, and largely influence how my day goes. 

But, to each his/her own. Pico being on the pass would certainly make the Ikon more palatable to me.


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## sankaty (Feb 25, 2018)

Edd said:


> I’m completely with you. If both are in decent shape, the vibe/crowds at Pico are far superior, and largely influence how my day goes.
> 
> But, to each his/her own. Pico being on the pass would certainly make the Ikon more palatable to me.



Also, while getting the Ikon Pass for the whole family is likely too expensive, there are scenarios where it might make sense for me to get an Ikon Pass and the rest of us to get Pico Passes.  Because I can't use my Ikon days at Pico, those possibilities are scuttled.


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## Zermatt (Feb 25, 2018)

Right, as others have said, K vs Pico has nothing to do with cost. All things being equal I'd rather be at Pico. I hate lift lines.


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## boston_e (Feb 25, 2018)

Actually, Pico sucks which is probably why IKON didn’t want them.  Don’t bother wasting a day over at Pico.  Too small, not enough terrain and you get bored by noon.


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## sankaty (Feb 25, 2018)

I just had a chat with the Killington folks on FB.  I did appreciate that they seemed to take my concerns seriously and offer responses.  The bottom line is, it seems that the Ikon group (basically Alterra) is driving these decisions and the partners are mostly along for the ride, as many of you already suspected.

I'm can't imagine why it is so important to the Ikon group that Pico not be accessible.  It's hard to imagine a prospective Ikon customer thinking, "I was going to buy the Ikon Pass, but then I found out I could use my K days at Pico, and Pico isn't iconic enough, so I think I'll skip the whole thing.  Epic Pass, here I come!"

I assume there are financial factors that I can't envision from the outside that explain these decisions, but it makes no sense from my perspective.


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## Phillyguy (Feb 25, 2018)

I guess they don't want to make this a NE pass. If there are too many days in the Northeast, then there's less incentive to go out west and spend money at destination resorts. 

Another reason is not to dilute the brand. I think having a few strong iconic mountains make the pass stand out, but if the lists gets too long with too many resorts, then Aspen/DV/Squaw become one of the many


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## Zermatt (Feb 25, 2018)

Phillyguy said:


> I guess they don't want to make this a NE pass. If there are too many days in the Northeast, then there's less incentive to go out west and spend money at destination resorts.
> 
> Another reason is not to dilute the brand. I think having a few strong iconic mountains make the pass stand out, but if the lists gets too long with too many resorts, then Aspen/DV/Squaw become one of the many



But using your K days at Pico doesn’t increase the NE days or dilute the brand. Pico is simply a part of Killington.


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## Scruffy (Feb 25, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Actually, Pico sucks which is probably why IKON didn’t want them.  Don’t bother wasting a day over at Pico.  Too small, not enough terrain and you get bored by noon.



That's right, stay away from Pico keep driving up the hill to Kton, esp. after a powder day-nothing to ski there.


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## boston_e (Feb 25, 2018)

billo said:


> But using your K days at Pico doesn’t increase the NE days or dilute the brand. Pico is simply a part of Killington.



With it only being 7 days I’m not buying IKON anyway, but the Pico thing is curious.

Pico isn’t “ikonic” enough but Loon is?!?


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## Edd (Feb 25, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Pico isn’t “ikonic” enough but Loon is?!?



Yeah, that’s absurd.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2018)

I guess Loon is a “destination”. Pico isn’t. Too bad. 

I think I’m going up there this weekend.


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## machski (Feb 26, 2018)

abc said:


> I guess Loon is a “destination”. Pico isn’t. Too bad.
> 
> I think I’m going up there this weekend.


Loon is not marketed as an off price, limited operating schedule area like Pico is.  Plain and simple to me why Alterra did not want that product (Pico) on their Ikon pass.  This is irrespective of what we the local skiers may think of the decision.

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## Zermatt (Feb 26, 2018)

machski said:


> Loon is not marketed as an off price, limited operating schedule area like Pico is.  Plain and simple to me why Alterra did not want that product (Pico) on their Ikon pass.  This is irrespective of what we the local skiers may think of the decision.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



But Pico doesn't have to be on the IkonPass.  It doesn't have to go on their website, it doesn't go anywhere.

But....it is just a part of Killington so your Killington days should work there.

Buttermilk isn't exactly iconic but you can use your Aspen/Snowmass days there.  FFS, the ski area is called "Buttermilk."


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2018)

As for Loon vs Pico...I wonder too if Boyne made a harder push to get Loon on (i.e. "If you want SR and SL on Ikon, we want to include Loon in that same pool of tickets as well").


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## benski (Feb 26, 2018)

Would they love you to use you $100  window rate tickets at Pico.


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## djd66 (Feb 26, 2018)

So will someone help me out here on the whole Icon Pass Deal?

I am a Sugarbush skier.  This year I got the All MTN 7 with no add-on for the Mtn. Collective.  I just came back from Aspen/Snowmass and I was able to buy lift tickets at 50% off day rate.  Day rate was $170 - so we saved a ton of money on this.

Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass?  EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full  unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648


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## Jcb890 (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> So will someone help me out here on the whole Icon Pass Deal?
> 
> I am a Sugarbush skier.  This year I got the All MTN 7 with no add-on for the Mtn. Collective.  I just came back from Aspen/Snowmass and I was able to buy lift tickets at 50% off day rate.  Day rate was $170 - so we saved a ton of money on this.
> 
> Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass?  EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full  unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648


It looks like you are right and the Ikon is *NOT *an Add-On option.


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## djd66 (Feb 26, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> It looks like you are right and the Ikon is *NOT *an Add-On option.



This is kind of a shame.  The way they should have set up this program is you pick you home Mountain and you get unlimited skiing at that mountain. Unless your home mountain is on the list for unlimited skiing - not sure why you would buy this.


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## abc (Feb 26, 2018)

“Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass? EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648”

You’re better off with just buying the Mountain Collective pass (~$400?) on top of you Sugarbush pass.


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## boston_e (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> This is kind of a shame.  The way they should have set up this program is you pick you home Mountain and you get unlimited skiing at that mountain. Unless your home mountain is on the list for unlimited skiing - not sure why you would buy this.



Killington has also specifically said there is no add on option.  One would have to buy a Killington season pass and an Ikon pass seperately.

i agree the Ikon pass does nothing for those whose “home” mountain is one of the limited access partners.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> So will someone help me out here on the whole Icon Pass Deal?
> 
> I am a Sugarbush skier.  This year I got the All MTN 7 with no add-on for the Mtn. Collective.  I just came back from Aspen/Snowmass and I was able to buy lift tickets at 50% off day rate.  Day rate was $170 - so we saved a ton of money on this.
> 
> Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass?  EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full  unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648



Keep in mind ikon is separate from the mountain collective. Next year you can still do the same thing you did this year and buy a full sugarbush pass and get 50% off day tickets at other mountain collective resorts. SB pass pricing will supposedly be released early this week based on the email about ikon that win sent out last week.


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## sankaty (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> So will someone help me out here on the whole Icon Pass Deal?
> 
> I am a Sugarbush skier.  This year I got the All MTN 7 with no add-on for the Mtn. Collective.  I just came back from Aspen/Snowmass and I was able to buy lift tickets at 50% off day rate.  Day rate was $170 - so we saved a ton of money on this.
> 
> Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass?  EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full  unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648



The Mountain Collective will continue to exist.  If it keeps the current form as it did last year (which is a big question), then I believe you will have three options:

1) Do what you did last year.  Get a premium SB pass without a MC pass.  This won't give you any free days at MC mountains, but would give you the 50% discount at other MC member mountains.

2) Get a SB pass with a MC pass.  This would give you two free days at each MC mountain in addition to the 50% discount on additional days.  This might make sense if you know you are going to ski at a bunch of other MC mountains.  The break even point will depend on the cost of the pass, the window prices of the mountains you ski, and whether you are able to take advantage of the very low cost child passes they've offered in past years.

3) Get a SB pass with an Ikon pass.  This is similar to the MC scenario, but will offer you more free days (possibly at different mountains?) at a higher cost.  It will likely take more days than the MC pass to earn out, but could make sense if you are able to ski lots of days at other Ikon mountains.

All this could get reshuffled if the MC pass gets revamped significantly, which seems at least somewhat probable IMO.

As you've already noted, it's hard to imagine a case where it makes financial sense to but the Ikon Pass in the northeast in addition to a SB season's pass.  The fact that the SB pass gives you the 50% MC ticket benefit makes it even harder to find a scenario where the Ikon pass would earn itself out.

Seems to me that for northeasterners, the Ikon pass might make sense for Stratton skiers or skiers that will ski 5+ days at three or more Ikon mountians (but not much more than 5 days at any of them).  Given the reduced number of eastern mountains on the pass, the latter case will be a pretty small set.


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## Zermatt (Feb 26, 2018)

IkonPass is available to add on to any season pass. $599 or $899.

Still holding out hope MC will shake things up when they release details this week.


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## boston_e (Feb 26, 2018)

billo said:


> IkonPass is available to add on to any season pass. $599 or $899.
> 
> Still holding out hope MC will shake things up when they release details this week.



Sure.  Same price as buying it independently.  There is no “add on discount” to a participating mountains season pass the way there was with Max Pass.

I think that is what people are taking about when they describe and “add on”


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## Zermatt (Feb 26, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Sure.  Same price as buying it independently.  There is no “add on discount” to a participating mountains season pass the way there was with Max Pass.
> 
> I think that is what people are taking about when they describe and “add on”



#sarcasm


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## djd66 (Feb 26, 2018)

billo said:


> IkonPass is available to add on to any season pass. $599 or $899.
> 
> Still holding out hope MC will shake things up when they release details this week.



They are releasing further details on the pass this week??


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## Zermatt (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> They are releasing further details on the pass this week??



Mountain Collective will announce this week. They told me on Instagram


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## djd66 (Feb 26, 2018)

abc said:


> “Is the Icon pass an Add-on to my Sugarbush pass? EX: in 2018/19, if I want the Icon deal and full unlimited 7 privileges at Sugarbush - will I have to fork out $899 (for the Icon Pass) + $749 (for the Sugarbush pass) = $1,648”
> 
> You’re better off with just buying the Mountain Collective pass (~$400?) on top of you Sugarbush pass.



Normally, I only make it out west 1/year.  If I go to only 1 resort (which is normally the case) then the MC addon or the Icon do not make any sense.  If they are trying to compete with Epic Pass - the Icon pass makes no sense.  I would be willing to pay a few hundred more as an add on to my Sugarbush pass, but $900 is crazy.  I would bet 99.9% of Sugarbush passholders would be in the same boat.


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## Jully (Feb 26, 2018)

billo said:


> Mountain Collective will announce this week. They told me on Instagram



Awesome. Holding out hope there too!


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Normally, I only make it out west 1/year.  If I go to only 1 resort (which is normally the case) then the MC addon or the Icon do not make any sense.  If they are trying to compete with Epic Pass - the Icon pass makes no sense.  I would be willing to pay a few hundred more as an add on to my Sugarbush pass, but $900 is crazy.  I would bet 99.9% of Sugarbush passholders would be in the same boat.



I would bet you are right. And I think Win agrees as well as he basically said as much in his e-mail to passholders about Ikon.


----------



## boston_e (Feb 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I would bet you are right. And I think Win agrees as well as he basically said as much in his e-mail to passholders about Ikon.



As did Mike Solimano in his blog post.


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## abc (Feb 26, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Normally, I only make it out west 1/year.  If I go to only 1 resort (which is normally the case) then the MC addon or the Icon do not make any sense.  If they are trying to compete with Epic Pass - the Icon pass makes no sense.  I would be willing to pay a few hundred more as an add on to my Sugarbush pass, but $900 is crazy.  I would bet 99.9% of Sugarbush passholders would be in the same boat.


Neither MC nor Ikon are "add-on". They're just independent passes you choose to buy on top of your home mountain passes. 

For folks whose home mountain HAPPENS to be owned by Alterra and on the IKON pass unrestricted, great for them. For everyone else, it's just a second pass. 

It maybe unthinkable for the northeast skiers, but my friends out in Colorado, many of them own more than one pass. A lot of them have Epic + RMSP, some have Epic + Loveland.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2018)

if I lived in CO this season, I would have probably done A-basin/Keystone pass for like $300 to get the unlimiteds, and then MAX pass to get 20 more days in CO and options to travel. that's what one of my Denver friends does. works for him, especially since his fiancé's family has a house at killington where they spent 7 ski days over x-mas at pico/k


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## jmgard (Feb 27, 2018)

abc said:


> Neither MC nor Ikon are "add-on". They're just independent passes you choose to buy on top of your home mountain passes.
> 
> For folks whose home mountain HAPPENS to be owned by Alterra and on the IKON pass unrestricted, great for them. For everyone else, it's just a second pass.
> 
> It maybe unthinkable for the northeast skiers, but my friends out in Colorado, many of them own more than one pass. A lot of them have Epic + RMSP, some have Epic + Loveland.



Hey some of us here have multiple as well... if you can qualify for discounts.  Peak Drifter and NE College Silver = $600 for 10 mountains, unlimited at 7 and only a few blackouts at the other 3.  That plus the Champlain Valley ski card is a lot of skiing for less than $800 total; I've only bought one actual lift ticket so far this season (foot of powder at Pico, totally worth it).


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## Jcb890 (Feb 27, 2018)

We did the Peak Pass and MAX Pass this year and have enjoyed it very much, it has given us a great variation of mountains to hit both in New England and out of New England.  Next year maybe just the Peak sadly...


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## p_levert (Feb 27, 2018)

billo said:


> Mountain Collective will announce this week. They told me on Instagram



It seems likely to me that the MC expands to include more resorts, such as Kmart, Stratton and Winter Park.  Maybe even 3 free days instead of just two.  This would be a way to expand into the Maxpass add on space, which I think sold well.

This is 100% conjecture by me, but it does make some economic sense.


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## Zermatt (Feb 27, 2018)

p_levert said:


> It seems likely to me that the MC expands to include more resorts, such as Kmart, Stratton and Winter Park.  Maybe even 3 free days instead of just two.  This would be a way to expand into the Maxpass add on space, which I think sold well.
> 
> This is 100% conjecture by me, but it does make some economic sense.



Why does that make economic sense?  More ski areas, less revenue, more skiers on your slopes not spending any money...

Makes economic sense for the skier, but not for the ski areas that abandoned the MAX Pass.


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## sankaty (Feb 27, 2018)

billo said:


> Why does that make economic sense?  More ski areas, less revenue, more skiers on your slopes not spending any money...
> 
> Makes economic sense for the skier, but not for the ski areas that abandoned the MAX Pass.



I don't pretend to know where the profitability breakpoint is, but presumably more mountains mean more passes sold.  They must have some profit motive to offer the MC pass?  If more mountains automatically meant less profit, why would they have any mountains on it at all?


----------



## boston_e (Feb 27, 2018)

billo said:


> Why does that make economic sense?  More ski areas, less revenue, more skiers on your slopes not spending any money...
> 
> Makes economic sense for the skier, but not for the ski areas that abandoned the MAX Pass.



Some of that would depend on how much added revenue they received from having added visits.  (I would think more skiers on their slopes would = more money spent, most people will not go to a resort and spend zero money... and certainly if they don't have the skier there in the first place they are for sure going to spend zero money.)

For example, this year my family went to Sunday River over MLK weekend using the Max Pass (from having added it on to our K-ton passes).  Over the 3 days we skied there I think we bought a total of 12 lunches in their cafeterias, 4 beers, 2 hot chocolate and 2 sodas at apres ski, plus toe warmers, and a neck gaiter.  Additionally, they got whatever smaller amount was distributed to them from max pass for our visits.  

Had it not been for the max pass there is no chance I would have gone and bought 3 days of lift tickets for my family so all of that would have been zero revenue.  Instead we would have gone to K and skied on our K passes (where we are more likely to pack lunch / not forget a neck gaiter where it is our home mountain).


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## boston_e (Feb 27, 2018)

p_levert said:


> It seems likely to me that the MC expands to include more resorts, such as Kmart, Stratton and Winter Park.  Maybe even 3 free days instead of just two.  This would be a way to expand into the Maxpass add on space, which I think sold well.
> 
> This is 100% conjecture by me, but it does make some economic sense.



If they want to sell more MC passes in New England they will need more New England mountains on board with it.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 27, 2018)

billo said:


> Makes economic sense for the skier, but not for the ski areas that abandoned the MAX Pass.



Not quite sure where you get that they "abandoned" it. Some of the participating resorts would very much have liked to continue it. MAX was essentially run by Intrawest from what I remember...so when Intrawest was bought out and the new owners decided to create their own new pass using many of their own resorts as the basis, that's why you no longer have MAX.

If there was no value in being part of a multi-resort pass, why would K, SR, SL, SB, Loon, etc have agreed to join Ikon? All of these are places that had prior experience with being part of a multi-mountain pass. It must make some economic sense if they're doing it again.

They may not make a ton from the revenue sharing of the pass itself, but there certainly is ancillary revenue generated in many cases. While you could argue some people would still ski anyway at resort x or y or z even if they had to pay more for a ticket, there are plenty others like boston_e that wouldn't have skied at a particular resort at all if it wasn't part of the multi-mountain pass they happened to have.


----------



## p_levert (Feb 27, 2018)

billo said:


> Why does that make economic sense?  More ski areas, less revenue, more skiers on your slopes not spending any money...
> 
> Makes economic sense for the skier, but not for the ski areas that abandoned the MAX Pass.



That's not how I see it.  If Killington sold 1,000 Maxpass add-ons, this will be in huge decline since 599/899 for an Ikon pass is a heck of a lot more than $329.  I just don't see many people willing to pay 599/899 on top of their season pass price.  So if Killington can participate in a $400 MC pass, they could potentially do quite well with it.  That's what I was thinking.


----------



## boston_e (Feb 27, 2018)

p_levert said:


> That's not how I see it.  If Killington sold 1,000 Maxpass add-ons, this will be in huge decline since 599/899 for an Ikon pass is a heck of a lot more than $329.  I just don't see many people willing to pay 599/899 on top of their season pass price.  So if Killington can participate in a $400 MC pass, they could potentially do quite well with it.  That's what I was thinking.



Correct.  A lot more people will buy a $329 add on to their pass than a full second pass for $899.


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## Jully (Feb 27, 2018)

p_levert said:


> It seems likely to me that the MC expands to include more resorts, such as Kmart, Stratton and Winter Park.  Maybe even 3 free days instead of just two.  This would be a way to expand into the Maxpass add on space, which I think sold well.
> 
> This is 100% conjecture by me, but it does make some economic sense.



More areas probably (hopefully). Doubt we see more days though. Alterra has some influence over the MC I would assume through their business partnership with Henry Crown and Co and many Alterra partners will be on the MC this year. Doubt they'd want to increase days with the base Ikon offering just 5 per resort.


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## gladerider (Feb 27, 2018)

boston_e said:


> Had it not been for the max pass there is no chance I would have gone and bought 3 days of lift tickets for my family so all of that would have been zero revenue.  Instead we would have gone to K and skied on our K passes (where we are more likely to pack lunch / not forget a neck gaiter where it is our home mountain).



this.

my crew had been heading up to Jay every prez week for the last 4 years. i bought maxpass for my family for the first time this year and i convinced my entire crew to head to Killington this year. they knew i had the maxpass and selfishly motivated but they were fine. our crew is 16 people in total. we rented slope side condos and all my crew bought lift tix and ski school. each family dropped several thousands for the trip. if i didn't have the maxpass, we prolly would have headed somewhere else.

lift ticket based revenue is only a part of the ski resorts income. of course maxpass increases the overall revenue.


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## p_levert (Feb 28, 2018)

Everyone should note an important difference between the Mountain Collective and the soon to be defunct Maxpass.  The MC provides a 50% discount on the walkup ticket rate after you have used your free days.  This is an important benefit and Maxpass didn't have this.  Of course, many MC resorts charge absurd walkup rates in the $150-$200 range, so they're hardly giving away tickets.  But it's an important benefit nonetheless.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 28, 2018)

p_levert said:


> Everyone should note an important difference between the Mountain Collective and the soon to be defunct Maxpass.  The MC provides a 50% discount on the walkup ticket rate after you have used your free days.  This is an important benefit and Maxpass didn't have this.  Of course, many MC resorts charge absurd walkup rates in the $150-$200 range, so they're hardly giving away tickets.  But it's an important benefit nonetheless.


It doesn't come close to off-setting the difference between 2 and 5 tickets.  MC's big draw was the difference in mountains and big-time resorts like Jackson Hole, etc.


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## djd66 (Feb 28, 2018)

p_levert said:


> Of course, many MC resorts charge absurd walkup rates in the $150-$200 range, so they're hardly giving away tickets.



Yep - I can say this first hand.  I just came back from a week at Aspen/Snowmass and took "Full" advantage of the MC 50% discount.  The day rate was $160 - so the MC price was $80/day.  It was still a significant savings over the price had i bought a multi day ticket.


----------



## boston_e (Feb 28, 2018)

p_levert said:


> Everyone should note an important difference between the Mountain Collective and the soon to be defunct Maxpass.  The MC provides a 50% discount on the walkup ticket rate after you have used your free days.  This is an important benefit and Maxpass didn't have this.  Of course, many MC resorts charge absurd walkup rates in the $150-$200 range, so they're hardly giving away tickets.  But it's an important benefit nonetheless.




True, although 2 days vs 5 days in the max pass.  And MC with only one northeast resort is tough for the New England based skier.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 28, 2018)

I've sampled the big passes. 1 year on epic. 1 year on MC. 3 years on MAX. 

MC had the best mountains but the worst deals/details. I spent so much money out of pocket that season.

Epic didn't have Stowe yet, so my 20 western days were covered but I was scrounging for deals back east

MAX is my clear favorite. 

Ikon will be a combo of Max and MC, and while the price is a bit steeper than I want it to be, I think i'll be pretty happy and will only dip into my pocket for the annual pilgrimages to stowe, mad river, and jay, which will come via skiVT pack.


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## St. Bear (Feb 28, 2018)

As a pure day tripper with no home mountain, I'm excited for the Ikon pass.  I got the Max Pass this year, and will definitely be switching for next year.  Sugarbush is a great addition, and the high end options out West are real enticing.  I can see why some people, especially those who ski a lot at a home mountain in the East, are disappointed, but I guess I'm lucky enough to fit in the sweet spot for this pass.


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## abc (Feb 28, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I've sampled the big passes. 1 year on epic. 1 year on MC. 3 years on MAX.
> .


I too, had those "big passes" for the past few years: MCP:2, Epic:1, MAX:1. And prior to that RMSP for 2 years. 


I didn't pay much for lift ticket when I travel. I simply planned for taking advantage of the MCP offering. Only very few days I had to pay (almost all of them powder days) At 50%, I can live with that.


But back east, I had to hunt for deals. Though the up side of that is, since I'm out west so much, I have relatively little time left to ski in the east. Even when I'm here, I wasn't jonsing to go to the mountains half as much. It's only when condition looks promising that I bother. Example, this weekend, I COULD take Friday off. But with the high wind and uncertain WHERE the snow will actually fall, I decided to bank the day to use on my Big Sky trip. 


Clearly, IKON being a combination of MCP and RMSP, with a few eastern mountain thrown in, will appeal to me.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 28, 2018)

abc said:


> I too, had those "big passes" for the past few years: MCP:2, Epic:1, MAX:1. And prior to that RMSP for 2 years.
> 
> 
> I didn't pay much for lift ticket when I travel. I simply planned for taking advantage of the MCP offering. Only very few days I had to pay (almost all of them powder days) At 50%, I can live with that.
> ...


I personally find it depressing riding back in New England after traveling West.  I don't blame you at all for taking that approach this week with a trip upcoming.

With a little one on the way, I don't think any Western trips will be in the cards for us next season.


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## machski (Feb 28, 2018)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one big difference with Mountain Collective is this is fronted by Liftopia, which is a ticket discounter and not an operator.  That is why it was lower cost, with limited included days but the unlimited discounts after the "pre-loaded" days.  If a resort is on Liftopia itself, could very well join MC.  If not (Boyne hills co.e to mind), doubt they will get added.

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## cdskier (Feb 28, 2018)

Liftopia seems to run it from a "technical" perspective...but I'm not sure if they run it from a "decision-making" perspective. From conversations I've had, it seems like the owners of the various resorts basically get together and make decisions together on who to invite, etc.


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## WinS (Mar 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Liftopia seems to run it from a "technical" perspective...but I'm not sure if they run it from a "decision-making" perspective. From conversations I've had, it seems like the owners of the various resorts basically get together and make decisions together on who to invite, etc.



Correct.


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2018)

MC is out, total sleeper. No major changes. We're all doomed.


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## cdskier (Mar 1, 2018)

billo said:


> MC is out, total sleeper. No major changes. We're all doomed.



Big Sky was added. I personally didn't expect any other major changes so it is exactly what I expected it would be.


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## p_levert (Mar 1, 2018)

billo said:


> MC is out, total sleeper. No major changes. We're all doomed.



Agree, sucks totally.  Epic/Ikon/MC are all heavily Western focused, nothing for the person that skis primarily in the East.  Blows.


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## xlr8r (Mar 1, 2018)

Well the almost unchanged Mountain Collective is real disappointing.  Unless Okemo/Sunapee or Wachusett come out with something good, it looks like next year I will be going without a pass.  Have been a loyal MAX holder for three years, went out west to Copper this year and Steamboat 2 years ago, but do not plan to go west next year.  Looks like it will be back to bargain hunting for lift ticket deals.  Actually after 3 years of only skiing MAX resorts, I am looking forward to going back to some of my favorites I haven't been to in the last 3 years (Cannon, Ragged, Burke, Crotched, Gunstock, Sugarbush etc)


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## machski (Mar 1, 2018)

p_levert said:


> Agree, sucks totally.  Epic/Ikon/MC are all heavily Western focused, nothing for the person that skis primarily in the East.  Blows.


But based on if their target is Epic, makes perfect sense from that perspective.  Sorry, east dominant pass products are obviously not money makers and that is what it boils down to.  Doesn't matter what we Eastern skiers would like, just not enough ROI out here to interest the big players beyond what is now offered.

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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 1, 2018)

So far as they dont jack up the peak pass price, I would say it is now officially the best option for primarily (one trip out west per year) east coast skiers.


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2018)

Did they drop Telluride?


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## Jcb890 (Mar 1, 2018)

billo said:


> Did they drop Telluride?


Looks like it.

Alta Ski Area
Aspen Snowmass
Banff Sunshine*
Big Sky Resort
Coronet Peak | The Remarkables
Jackson Hole Mountain Resort
Lake Louise Ski Resort*
Mammoth Mountain
Revelstoke Mountain Resort
Snowbasin Resort
Snowbird
Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows
Sugarbush Resort
Sun Valley
Taos Ski Valley
Thredbo Alpine Village


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## abc (Mar 1, 2018)

billo said:


> Did they drop Telluride?


Yes

Or rather, Telluride drpp them. (and went to Vail/EPIC)


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## p_levert (Mar 1, 2018)

It sure would be easy for Boyne, Powdr and the Muellers (Okemo, CB, Sunapee) to get together and come up with a decent East/West pass product.  I wonder if Alterra twisted arms to get Boyne and Powdr to promise not to form another pass group??  It wouldn't shock me.


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## benski (Mar 1, 2018)

p_levert said:


> It sure would be easy for Boyne, Powdr and the Muellers (Okemo, CB, Sunapee) to get together and come up with a decent East/West pass product.  I wonder if Alterra twisted arms to get Boyne and Powdr to promise not to form another pass group??  It wouldn't shock me.



Powdr owns Snowbird which is on the Mountain Collective and Ikon so I guess not. Same with Sugarbush, Alta and Jackson Hole


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## Zermatt (Mar 1, 2018)

p_levert said:


> It sure would be easy for Boyne, Powdr and the Muellers (Okemo, CB, Sunapee) to get together and come up with a decent East/West pass product.  I wonder if Alterra twisted arms to get Boyne and Powdr to promise not to form another pass group??  It wouldn't shock me.



Initial MC will be sold out in days. Clock is ticking.


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## p_levert (Mar 1, 2018)

benski said:


> Powdr owns Snowbird which is on the Mountain Collective and Ikon so I guess not. Same with Sugarbush, Alta and Jackson Hole



I was talking about forming an all-new pass group from Boyne, Powdr and Mueller resorts.  So I don't see the connection to what you wrote.


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## abc (Mar 1, 2018)

billo said:


> Initial MC will be sold out in days. Clock is ticking.


Maybe different this year. IKON covers the same mountains


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## Edd (Mar 1, 2018)

Shit, man. I may go back to Peaks/Bold & Beautiful next season. I’ve really enjoyed the Max. If I were sure I’m going on one substantial western trip than it’d probably be worth it. 


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## Oz Von Toco (Mar 1, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> So far as they dont jack up the peak pass price, I would say it is now officially the best option for primarily (one trip out west per year) east coast skiers.



This is what I'm gonna do, quite frankly, even if the price increase a little it will still make sense for me


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## Jully (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm definitely going out west next year, probably twice, so a pass would be nice. Was hoping the MCP would provide a little more value, but it doesn't. If I got the Ikon Base I'd probably ski around 15-17 days back east on it plus ~8 days out west = $23 a day. Not as good as the MAX but not bad. 

If I get the MCP I will ski 3 days back east on it and ~8 days out west = $37 a day. It is no contest with the MCP at that price point. I pay less than $200 extra and get an extra 2 weeks of skiing back east which I'll definitely use.

Was hoping the MCP would be cheap enough to make it compete with the Ikon or add more places back east, but no such luck.

I feel like wachusett will go back to being solo, but Okemo I bet goes somewhere, probably Epic rather than a new collaborative pass.


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## machski (Mar 1, 2018)

Jully said:


> I'm definitely going out west next year, probably twice, so a pass would be nice. Was hoping the MCP would provide a little more value, but it doesn't. If I got the Ikon Base I'd probably ski around 15-17 days back east on it plus ~8 days out west = $23 a day. Not as good as the MAX but not bad.
> 
> If I get the MCP I will ski 3 days back east on it and ~8 days out west = $37 a day. It is no contest with the MCP at that price point. I pay less than $200 extra and get an extra 2 weeks of skiing back east which I'll definitely use.
> 
> ...


Okemo goes Epic, that's funny.

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## benski (Mar 1, 2018)

machski said:


> Okemo goes Epic, that's funny.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Okemo could then sell the Epic bordem ticket.


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## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

*Home skiing isn't so bad after all - pass the VT beer*



Jcb890 said:


> I personally find it depressing riding back in New England after traveling West.



Having just skied locally after coming back from Utah, I have to say I was happy in how happy I was to be back in home mountains, because (in no particular order): 


Our mountains, even in winter, seem lush and green by comparison to the dry red-rock desert
No altitude sickness here
Human and humane humidity naturally in the air - no more air-so-desert-dry that it creates bloody noses and sore throats while you sleep out west
We actually ski real slopes and terrain all the way to the bottom of our lifts (not long boring ravine traverses for miles just to get back to a lift)
Immediately noticeable is our faster, and thus more fun, snow
The joys of coming home to "real" and excellent unwatered-down Vermont beers after a great hard day of skiing
A really good on-mountain cheddar cheeseburger for $12 versus $28 Park City burger (VT burger is better)
Never realized how much cheaper and more variety of cheeses we have here in our markets for post-ski wine and cheese (A simple Cabot was crazy expensive in Utah, with very few different types of cheeses available there)
Aesthetically pretty, big large snowflakes as they fall here (vs the tiny can't-see-em dry pellet-flakes that fall in Utah)
Can't wait for spring skiing in corn snow - was funny how no one out west even heard of skiing in corn snow - can't wait!
 
Just some thoughts. We shouldn't adopt the western view that our eastern skiing sucks, because it doesn't. 

Sometimes the purpose of a trip is to realize how good you have it back "home". Thank you Utah for sucking so bad.


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## Scruffy (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> Having just skied locally after coming back from Utah, I have to say I was happy in how happy I was to be back in home mountains, because (in no particular order):
> 
> 
> Our mountains, even in winter, seem lush and green by comparison to the dry red-rock desert
> ...



:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Dude, head back to your cave until you grow up a little.  You'll get no sympathy for your narrow views here. Look, you had a bad trip, you planned wrong, went to the wrong place in Utah and had the wrong expectations. Jesus man, as a tele skier you should went to Alta, what the hell is wrong with you?


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## Higgl (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> [*]Aesthetically pretty, big large snowflakes as they fall here (vs the tiny can't-see-em dry pellet-flakes that fall in Utah)



Did you just say the dry snow in Utah sucks compared to eastern snow? Yeah you might not get big crystals (though I've seen bigger flakes out there too...), but the dry pellets are why the snow is amazing.

Also did you call ski resort burgers back east "really good?" Yeah Vail food sucks dick price wise, but I just don't eat it, but I don't eat much food back east at resorts either (where's the thread about pocket bacon and Tupperware fried rice?).

You gotta be the only person in the world who thinks the hardpack man-made eastern snow base that is "faster" than western natural snow is better.


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## Okemo max guy (Mar 5, 2018)

I feel like theirs something in the works for Okemo. Epic, MC Ikon?  Your guys guess is as good as mine. I hope Ikon


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## Zermatt (Mar 5, 2018)

Scruffy said:


> :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
> 
> Dude, head back to your cave until you grow up a little.  You'll get no sympathy for your narrow views here. Look, you had a bad trip, you planned wrong, went to the wrong place in Utah and had the wrong expectations. Jesus man, as a tele skier you should went to Alta, what the hell is wrong with you?



In addition to being factually wrong about most of those complaints. Altitude sick in Park City? No real snowflakes?

Reminds me of Snowbirds one star ad campaign.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

billo said:


> Did they drop Telluride?



Telluride joined Epic.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

Scruffy said:


> :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
> 
> Dude, head back to your cave until you grow up a little.  You'll get no sympathy for your narrow views here. Look, you had a bad trip, you planned wrong, went to the wrong place in Utah and had the wrong expectations. Jesus man, as a tele skier you should went to Alta, what the hell is wrong with you?



+1.

The post was “de ja vu all over again!” :lol:


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## boston_e (Mar 5, 2018)

Okemo max guy said:


> I feel like theirs something in the works for Okemo. Epic, MC Ikon?  Your guys guess is as good as mine. I hope Ikon



Adding Okemo might actually tip the scales for me with Ikon.  Not that i Love Okemo so much... just that it is a place I could easily use a few of the days.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2018)

“Altitude sickness” in Park City! Classic!!!

16 posts. We haven’t seen nothing yet, of narrow-minded views.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

benski said:


> Powdr owns Snowbird which is on the Mountain Collective and Ikon so I guess not. Same with Sugarbush, Alta and Jackson Hole



Powdr DOES NOT own Snowbird. Ian Cumming made it clear that they are separate and distinct entities. Now that Ian is dead word has it that his other son is running Snowbird. John has pretty much been left out because of what happened at Park city.


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## benski (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier must be one of those people you see on twitter making controversy over nothing.


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## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

abc said:


> “Altitude sickness” in Park City! Classic!!!



The quote I was addressing said he felt bad coming home from skiing out "West". FYI: West includes places outside PC. 

Feel free to point out where I said PC had altitude. (I didn't). Telluride is west had altitude, which is what I was thinking of, and where I did experience that for the first time in my life (as random luck of the draw).

Feel free to disagree and refute my homecoming feeling if you instead agree with the view that eastern skiing 'sucks'.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> Feel free to disagree and refute my homecoming feeling if you instead agree with the view that eastern skiing 'sucks'.


Yeah, right, Cheese!!! :roll:

What's next? Broccoli??? How about avocado???

Tell you what? Steaks in the east sucks! There's no bison burger. But hey, you love your sushi I'm sure.

But hey, the more of those like you stays home, the more space on the plane for those of us going out west. I'm not complaining.


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## djd66 (Mar 6, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> The quote I was addressing said he felt bad coming home from skiing out "West". FYI: West includes places outside PC.
> 
> Feel free to point out where I said PC had altitude. (I didn't). Telluride is west had altitude, which is what I was thinking of, and where I did experience that for the first time in my life (as random luck of the draw).
> 
> Feel free to disagree and refute my homecoming feeling if you instead agree with the view that eastern skiing 'sucks'.



+1 ,... you asked - yes eastern skiing does suck - especially this season.  Sorry dude, I can't figure out if you are trolling or what? Did you get hit in the head by one of your tele skis?
I ski in the east because I live here.  If I could drive to Colorado in 3 hours I would never ski VT again.
Snow, terrain, lodges and the food win In the west.


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## Zermatt (Mar 6, 2018)

I think there is a huge amount of people out there that think they only get 5 days total with the Ikon Base.  Not 5 days per resort (or group of resorts).


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## AdironRider (Mar 6, 2018)

billo said:


> I think there is a huge amount of people out there that think they only get 5 days total with the Ikon Base.  Not 5 days per resort (or group of resorts).



Those people are morons.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

Deer Valley just released pass prices.  In addition to IKON, their pass prices are all still over $2,000 per adult.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2018)

Just brought the Ikon for myself, the wife, and my son. I can get why some people are disappointed, but for my specific situation, it's still a good fit. Sucks about the blackouts though.


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## Zermatt (Mar 6, 2018)

St. Bear said:


> Just brought the Ikon for myself, the wife, and my son. I can get why some people are disappointed, but for my specific situation, it's still a good fit. Sucks about the blackouts though.



We will ultimately buy the Ikon as well, wife and two kids.  It's not perfect but also a good fit.  I'll pull the trigger right before the kids' pass price increases.

Will hit Killington and Sugarbush 5 times each, and possibly some day trips to Stratton.  Then at least one 5 day trip out west and possibly a second in April.  The weekend before Christmas is not blacked out, if the snow is good we will ski that long weekend.

Might supplement with a few Pico 3 packs for MLK weekend.  Or skip it, plenty of good weekends to ski that don't involve every other skier in the northeast.

Did you have to pay sales tax on the Ikon?


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2018)

> Did you have to pay sales tax on the Ikon?



Nope.


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## WJenness (Mar 6, 2018)

I'm coming around on the Ikon.

I had a great day on Sunday at Stratton, met some new people, skied some new (to me) stuff... 

I think I'm convincing myself to go with the Ikon base for next year... If I can figure out how to do a Western long weekend somewhere, I think I'll be happy with it.

Biggest disappointment for me is that the closest mountain is two hours from my door, but my other thought was to go with a Boyne NE Silver, and that doesn't change that... It's still 2 hours to Loon either way.


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## Killingtime (Mar 6, 2018)

After the initial shock of losing many northeast Max Pass resorts, I'm coming around too and will pull the trigger on the Base Pass shortly. I will miss Gore but a weekend trip to Sugarbush will make up for it. The big question is where to do my yearly out west trip. I'll ponder that over some beers around 4th of July.


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## boston_e (Mar 6, 2018)

WJenness said:


> I'm coming around on the Ikon.
> 
> I had a great day on Sunday at Stratton, met some new people, skied some new (to me) stuff...
> 
> ...



While I do think the Ikon is much worse than the Max, I'm trying to decide if I can justify it.  Killington/Pico is my home mountain so we will buy that season pass, but trying to decide if we plan on a western trip next year and if so, do we wan to commit to one of the western options on the ikon. The base pass would be easier to justify, but with kids and having to travel over school break it kind of makes the blackout dates not viable.

Most likely they are not getting my business.


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## Teleskier (Mar 6, 2018)

djd66 said:


> +1 ,... you asked - yes eastern skiing does suck - especially this season. I ski in the east because I live here.  If I could drive to Colorado in 3 hours I would never ski VT again.
> Snow, terrain, lodges and the food win In the west.



You're entitled to that view (disdain for skiing here). And you'd find a lot of company out west to agree with you.

I ski here because I truly like it here - not because I'm forced to. I might feel that way if I lived south of here (say, Hunter, but I've never been there so I don't know). 

To me there is something special about New England skiing, in all its various forms. From XC to backcountry to lift-service. When I climb and ski Tucks - or tele MRG - it is almost spiritual. 

I don't say it's the best in the world (like the fake boast on the $28 Park City hamburger), but it does have its good, and even unique, attributes that makes it hugely enjoyable (to me).

Anyway, back to the pass discussion... 

I'm also at a loss for what I'm going to to do for next year. 

In this first and only year with it, the western component of the EPIC pass hasn't panned out for me with being the value I'd thought it might be. I'm 0 for 2 in truly enjoying my two pricey western trips on EPIC so far. To date, I have never "not enjoyed" or have regretted a ski trip in my life, so this was a bit of shock and surprise. If skiing in New England can feel spiritual, I didn't feel anything even remotely close to spiritual anywhere in Park City. Or in the daily $30 Vail parking spots either, for that matter. All corporate tourist gouging and hassle with little payback. The very opposite of spiritual New England experience.

So next year I was thinking I might focus more on local mountains again. But then again, now they just added Telluride to the EPIC mix. And I haven't tried CA yet (like I 'tried' Utah) on EPIC. I'm not sure where Aspen ended up in this shuffle, that might influence me too. Then there's the possible repeat of my former yearly visits to Whistler where I miss my crew out there, pulling me back into the EPIC camp. And I really miss skiing in Europe, it's been too long where I have that loosely earmarked for next year, but the EPIC offerings there are limited and weak (IMHO). Japan is on my wish list (was last there in fall in the mountains and could only dream of snow) but would only want the best mountains there to justify the very long plane trip (when New England and Europe are so close).

A lot of variables to sort out, with no immediate clear answer (as yet)...


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## Zermatt (Mar 6, 2018)

boston_e said:


> While I do think the Ikon is much worse than the Max, I'm trying to decide if I can justify it.  Killington/Pico is my home mountain so we will buy that season pass, but trying to decide if we plan on a western trip next year and if so, do we wan to commit to one of the western options on the ikon. The base pass would be easier to justify, but with kids and having to travel over school break it kind of makes the blackout dates not viable.
> 
> Most likely they are not getting my business.



Blackout dates in February are only the weekend days, not the following week or President's day itself.  Not sure that matters, but it does for me.  MLK I'll pass on skiing, and Christmas week out west is never a sure thing.


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## boston_e (Mar 6, 2018)

billo said:


> Blackout dates in February are only the weekend days, not the following week or President's day itself.  Not sure that matters, but it does for me.  MLK I'll pass on skiing, and Christmas week out west is never a sure thing.



Thanks for the heads up.  In theory we could go during the second half of school break which takes out those blackout days.

the max pass add on was a no brainer... the ikon would be borderline on justifying itself for us.

lookong at it, at least for Utah, I preferred the max pass Mountains


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## machski (Mar 6, 2018)

Take it for what it is worth, but some FB mumblings indicating an Ikon add on to a partner resort season pass could be forthcoming.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## boston_e (Mar 6, 2018)

machski said:


> Take it for what it is worth, but some FB mumblings indicating an Ikon add on to a partner resort season pass could be forthcoming.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



If true that could change the game for me (depending on the price / details of course)


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## Jully (Mar 6, 2018)

machski said:


> Take it for what it is worth, but some FB mumblings indicating an Ikon add on to a partner resort season pass could be forthcoming.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Boyne plz plz plz.


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## WJenness (Mar 7, 2018)

Jully said:


> Boyne plz plz plz.



2nd!!!


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## p_levert (Mar 7, 2018)

I don't know about an Ikon pass add-on, but there seems to be such a thing as a Mountain Collective add-on, as it is mentioned here (see Boyne Gold pass):

http://www.boynehighlands.com/passes

I guess we will know more in the next few days.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

p_levert said:


> I don't know about an Ikon pass add-on, but there seems to be such a thing as a Mountain Collective add-on, as it is mentioned here (see Boyne Gold pass):
> 
> http://www.boynehighlands.com/passes
> 
> I guess we will know more in the next few days.



Hmm...I'm quite confused by this...those Michigan Boyne resorts aren't even part of Mountain Collective (at the moment). If Boyne is doing something though with MC, will their eastern resorts be eligible for that discounted MC pass? Actually I would like it if Boyne's eastern resorts were added to MC since as a Sugarbush passholder I get 50% at other MC resorts automatically. That would make a trip to SR or SL enticing...


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## Jully (Mar 7, 2018)

p_levert said:


> I don't know about an Ikon pass add-on, but there seems to be such a thing as a Mountain Collective add-on, as it is mentioned here (see Boyne Gold pass):
> 
> http://www.boynehighlands.com/passes
> 
> I guess we will know more in the next few days.



Very interesting. $249 add on MCP. I wonder if that is what the rumblings on facebook are about? Certainly makes a Boyne pass more palatable for me, though it would have to be eligible for add-on with the Silver New England (obviously different pricing than the Michigan passes) at a maximum. I'm probably not dishing out $1000 for a gold.

I'm just hoping any potential add-on gets resolved by the 11th before the flash sale ends. I'll be pretty upset if on March 12th Boyne announces an Ikon add-on. Not that it wouldn't make more money (offer discounted passes to Boyne loyalists then draw in the wandering skiers with Ikon add-ons at a higher Boyne pass price), but I'd still be disappointed.


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## p_levert (Mar 9, 2018)

MC add-on is real, from http://www.boynehighlands.com/passes/gold-pass

  "Eligible for discounted Mountain Collective Pass for $249 (Mountain Collective on sale March 12)"

Interesting wrinkle in all of this.


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## Jully (Mar 9, 2018)

p_levert said:


> MC add-on is real, from http://www.boynehighlands.com/passes/gold-pass
> 
> "Eligible for discounted Mountain Collective Pass for $249 (Mountain Collective on sale March 12)"
> 
> Interesting wrinkle in all of this.



What is even more confusing is that no where else, including the MCP website, mentions this. It'll be interesting to see who ends up offering it. Since it goes on sale March 12th, I suspect we will find out more then.


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## p_levert (Mar 9, 2018)

Jully said:


> What is even more confusing is that no where else, including the MCP website, mentions this. It'll be interesting to see who ends up offering it. Since it goes on sale March 12th, I suspect we will find out more then.



A few more details here: https://www.boynemountain.com/passes/gold

Limited time offer, apparently.  BTW, this is definitely not fake news.  This is the website of the Boyne flagship resort, even if it is actually a bit of a cr*phole.


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## Jully (Mar 9, 2018)

p_levert said:


> A few more details here: https://www.boynemountain.com/passes/gold
> 
> Limited time offer, apparently.  BTW, this is definitely not fake news.  This is the website of the Boyne flagship resort, even if it is actually a bit of a cr*phole.



Definitely not fake news, but still confusing that only Highlands is offering it out of any resort I've seen. The fact that Boyne has announced it for Highlands and not for any of its NE resorts makes me think it won't make its way here.

However, other mountains that have yet to release season passes might be planning on offering it.


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## p_levert (Mar 9, 2018)

Jully said:


> Definitely not fake news, but still confusing that only Highlands is offering it out of any resort I've seen. The fact that Boyne has announced it for Highlands and not for any of its NE resorts makes me think it won't make its way here.
> 
> However, other mountains that have yet to release season passes might be planning on offering it.



A minor correction, it's offered for both Boyne Mtn and Boyne Highlands (see the 2nd link).  The flagship is Boyne Mtn, which is a cr*phole IMHO.  Boyne Highlands is much nicer, but it's not the cash cow that Boyne Mtn is.

I predict the MC add-on will be offered in the NE.  And I also predict that the price will go up from $249, probably to $299 after April 6.


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## J dot O dot (Mar 9, 2018)

An awesome mix of mountains, sad to see the maxpass go

Sent from my Pixel XL using AlpineZone mobile app


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## speden (Mar 14, 2018)

Just got an email from Mount Sunapee that they along with Okemo are joining the Epic pass.


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## gladerider (Mar 20, 2018)

was pissed about no maxpass next year.
after thinking long and hard, i think i will buy the base pass for my family of three.
already thinking about where to hit out west next season.


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## phin (Mar 21, 2018)

It would be great if Alterra purchased Jay/Burke.  Adding unlimited days at those two mountains, in addition to 7 days at sugarbush, 7 at sugarloaf and 7 at killington would make buying this pass a no brainer for me.


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## boston_e (Mar 21, 2018)

gladerider said:


> was pissed about no maxpass next year.
> after thinking long and hard, i think i will buy the base pass for my family of three.
> already thinking about where to hit out west next season.



While it is not as good as Max for sure, I agree that it can still make financial sense once you put the disappointment of losing max behind.

Even one western trip plus 4 or 5 weekends in the east brings the price down to under $60 per day (which is a lot less than buying lift tickets).


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## boston_e (Mar 21, 2018)

phin said:


> It would be great if Alterra purchased Jay/Burke.  Adding unlimited days at those two mountains, in addition to 7 days at sugarbush, 7 at sugarloaf and 7 at killington would make buying this pass a no brainer for me.



A powdr / alterra merger, (which would hopefully make Ikon unlimited at K and Pico) would make it a no brainier for me.

For our situation, the pass is a non starter without more ability to use it at K and Pico (or a lower "add on "price point would do it as well).


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## gladerider (Mar 21, 2018)

boston_e said:


> While it is not as good as Max for sure, I agree that it can still make financial sense once you put the disappointment of losing max behind.
> 
> Even one western trip plus 4 or 5 weekends in the east brings the price down to under $60 per day (which is a lot less than buying lift tickets).



you are right. for us though, losing the mountains close to NYC is the biggest pain. i was able to hit mountain creek and the windham and belleayre a few times this year. next year we need to go up to vermont more. oh well.


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## machski (Mar 21, 2018)

phin said:


> It would be great if Alterra purchased Jay/Burke.  Adding unlimited days at those two mountains, in addition to 7 days at sugarbush, 7 at sugarloaf and 7 at killington would make buying this pass a no brainer for me.


If Alterra were to buy Jay, I think you would see reduced offerings in the east on the Ikon next year.  Just a hunch, but they would have Stratton Jay Tremblant.  Pretty good coverage, why revenue share at that point with Powdr/Boyne?

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Mar 21, 2018)

machski said:


> If Alterra were to buy Jay, I think you would see reduced offerings in the east on the Ikon next year.  Just a hunch, but they would have Stratton Jay Tremblant.  Pretty good coverage, why revenue share at that point with Powdr/Boyne?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



This. For all we know Boyne will be off Ikon next year voluntarily anyway.


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## Whitey (Mar 21, 2018)

Jully said:


> This. For all we know Boyne will be off Ikon next year voluntarily anyway.



Do you have any reason why you think this or just conjecture?    Boyne has been a pretty consistent participant with the Max/Ikon passes.    The reduction of the days you get at Loon/SR/SL is kind of a bummer but it's still an OK deal.


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## Jully (Mar 21, 2018)

Whitey said:


> Do you have any reason why you think this or just conjecture?    Boyne has been a pretty consistent participant with the Max/Ikon passes.    The reduction of the days you get at Loon/SR/SL is kind of a bummer but it's still an OK deal.



My own hypothesizing based on what has happened this spring.

Boyne buys back all its properties from OZ and adds the 50% off Boyne western properties perk back to the NE pass, something that has been gone for a few years. Seems to me like they are maybe testing the waters for interest in Boyne properties only. Combined with the Boyne Rewards program, it really makes a lot of sense to try and keep people within their own portfolio of resorts.

Again I'm shooting blind here, but they're less "in" on the Ikon than they were on MAX (fewer properties, fewer days back east). I certainly don't know the financial details of the Ikon partnership ($$ involved, contract (if one exists) length, etc) or who wanted fewer NE days and not all the Boyne resorts on the pass. But regardless, if they don't love how Ikon turns out for them this year and they see a lot of gold NE passholders traveling west using the 50% off benefit, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if they tried to shake things up.


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## machski (Mar 21, 2018)

I tend to agree with this thought.  The lack of Crystal now with Boyne out west puts a small dent into the offering.  Big Sky is a huge draw, but then Brighton and Snowqualmie as the next tier out west.  Not sure that would be enough to go it alone.  Pretty much why Okemo/CB (and Sunapee) jumped in with Vail on the Epic.


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## Jully (Mar 21, 2018)

machski said:


> I tend to agree with this thought.  The lack of Crystal now with Boyne out west puts a small dent into the offering.  Big Sky is a huge draw, but then Brighton and Snowqualmie as the next tier out west.  Not sure that would be enough to go it alone.  Pretty much why Okemo/CB (and Sunapee) jumped in with Vail on the Epic.



Very true. Crystal probably makes a pretty big difference. If they can get Solitude benefits for Brighton that would help, but still probably not enough. They'd likely need another decent acquisition or partner in CO or Oregon or somewhere.

Either way, the next 15 months or so will hopefully feature some exciting things at the Boyne properties.


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## Edd (Apr 4, 2018)

I’m not seeing a date that the price goes up on the adult passes. Anyone see it? Think I’m going to end up buying this sumbitch. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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