# Backpack frame...



## Greg (Jul 22, 2001)

External or Internal? Which do you prefer? Why?


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## hikergrrl (Jul 22, 2001)

Internal, due to childgood trauma with the other kind.

When I was in high school, we went on a weekend trip -Not knowing anything about packs, I got a cheapo external frame pack from the local department store. 

And I suffered so.....  COuldn't even hoist the thing on my back without help.

So when I see external frame packs, I think of torture racks.

But they may be just fine. Haven't tried one since.


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## RJ (Jul 23, 2001)

My sister borrowed a pack from a friend several weeks ago for an overnighter we were doing. It was a Kelty external frame. The pack was way too big for my sister so I ended up carrying her pack. It had to be the worst experience of my life. Our hike was 7 hours to a hut over two 4 thousand foot mountains. By the time I got to the hut my shoulders were killing me. I was so thankful to get back my internal frame North Face.


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## Hike'n Mike (Aug 15, 2001)

My first _backpacking_ pack was a cheapo Academy/Broadway external frame I got from Rich's Department Store in Berlin, NH.  I had been using an L.L. Bean daypack and only doing day hikes but I thought the frame pack looked way cooler.  It may not have been comfortable but at least I looked like a real backpacker, or so I thought :smile:.  

When I finally decided to do an overnight trip, I went to the Wilderness House in Boston and picked up a Camp Trails E-frame.  This pack had 2 main compartments and five accessory pockets. It held more than 4000 Cubic Inches plus whatever I could lash to the frame.  That pack served me well for a number of years and many, many overnights in the backcountry.  My main complaint was that it flopped around a lot and made me feel top heavy.  Because of that I decided to try an I-frame, which brings me to my present pack.

I now use an EMS 5500 to which I added two 350 cu. in. accessory pockets.  I really like how it feels.  I am able to cinch it up tight to my back and it makes my balance feel much better.  I really hope I get to use it a lot more.


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## Mike P. (Aug 16, 2001)

Only have used Internals, basically due to a love of windy alpine summits & steep trails which are best with Internals.

If you hike in humid summer weather on flat trails through the woods, an external allos for air between your back & Pack.


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## woodchuck (Aug 16, 2001)

I have a Dana Terraframe external (5600cu")that weighs 7lb 11oz and I have a Gregory Reality internal (3850cu") that weighs 4lb 5oz.  The obvious advantage of the Dana is that I can carry a small car in it if I needed to so it's great for long hikes where re-supplies are far between or when I end up carrying most of the weight for two people.(they say that you can carry more weight comfortably with an external too)  It works well as long as the trails are fairly flat and easy but I have lost my balance with it on steep mountain trails before.  On the other hand I can carry 35-40 lbs in the Gregory with no problems and have never had any balance problems.  The bottom line is that I would rather carry the internal but there are situations when the large external fits the bill.


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## Greg (Aug 16, 2001)

I'm still using my trusty Jansport D2. The pack is probably over 10 years old now, but it still works great for me and I have no intention of upgrading for at least another couple of years. I bought it for $120 from Campmor (Campmor's great, arent they?) and it has served me well. I like the ability to securly strap gear to the frame (tent, sleeping pad/bag, etc...). I've never even tried an internal frame pack so I can't comment, but I see the point about the difficulty navigting steep trails with an external. I guess I'm just used to it...


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## SherpaKroto (Aug 16, 2001)

I love internals. Back in my younger days, I used an EMS external and got by, but remember only pain. I also used a Kelty Tioga which was "the" frame in the 70's. I now own a JanSport Tatoosh II (~4000 cu in) that is a perfect fit. Ideal for all but long winter trips. It is holding up well after about 15 trips, including 2 Tuck's trips of 50+ lbs. JanSport may get alot of flack, but until I can afford a Gregory Lassen (if ever), I'll keep going out with it until it dies (or I do...)  - SherpaKroto


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## Greg (Jun 16, 2003)

Thought I'd rejuvenate this thread. I just got an *EMS 5500* for Father's Day (I guess this is the go-ahead from the misses to go backpacking?)!

This is my first internal. I've been using a Jansport D2 External for years. Anything I should know about using the new internal vs. the external, i.e. packing approaches? Anyone have this pack? Any comments or things to be aware of?


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## Greg (Aug 7, 2003)

bump


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## pancho (Aug 8, 2003)

*internal/external*

The point of the frame is to be able to lift the weight of your pack upwards and off your shoulders.  Originally the external frames did this better and were probably easier to produce, because of the simplicity of the shape.  Internal frames evolved with the idea of being able to shape the frame with pliable, yet stiff material, to the backs of each individual.  External frames began to be curved, too, but obviously were too stiff to be bent by the user to a different shape.  External frames had adjustments in the lengths over one's head or below the watse.  Tents were often lashed to the frame outside the bags, and sleeping bags to the frames on the bottoms outside the bags.  Internals were meant for skiers (swinging arms would not hit the pack), rock climbers, or bushwakers (nothing over your head height) with the pack meant to ride closely conformed to the back, in tight against the body.  Externals, therefore, were "cooler behind the back", made to carry heavier loads.  Their rectangular aluminum frames look strong, don' t they?  The bags might sag with weight, but the frames would keep their strong shape.  Now internal frames are stong and carry heavy loads.  However, people are also carrying lighter gear and internal packs are more popular I believe.  I judge that mostly of what I see in the store selections-- many more internals to select from.  One thing to check when buying an external frame is to note how the cross pieces are attached to the vertical ones.  That is the point where I have seen them fail, at that weld.  You might think, okay if I were in the field and the weld broke, could it be repaired on the spot.  How could it be jury rigged back together?  Are there pin holes in the pieces that could help in be lashing the pieces together?  I do remember when Kelty externals were what people wanted as the "cadilac" of frames.  They are still available today. Of course, the pendulum is swinging back to the old days when packs had no frames at all.  Check out the "new" lightweight backpacks -- frameless!


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## pedxing (Aug 8, 2003)

I started out with a North Face external ages ago - but found myself dumping the frame and using it as a rucksack.  Since then I've stuck with internal's - while my back gets sweattier in the summer than with an external - I like the pack closer to my center of gravity and the ease of scrambling.

I've become very enamored of my Mountainsmith Ghost (3,100 ci, 2 pounds 6 oz.) which I picked up at an REI used gear sale.  Somehow the used gear sales are the things that get me to try new things (last year it was a Hennessey Hammock).  I'm going with the Ghost (and the hammock) for my NH AT traverse... err... trek.


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## Greg (Aug 8, 2003)

Thanks for the history lesson, pancho!  :lol: 

Anyway, any advice on packing an internal? As pancho mentioned, I used to strap my sleeping bag to the bottom of my Jansport D2 and my tent rolled in my Ridge Rest to the top, horizontally. Clothes in the bottom compartment of the pack. Gear, e.g. stove, and food in the top compartment. Water bottles on the sides.

How should I pack the EMS 5500? I assume the sleeping bag is just stuffed in the bottom sans the stuff sack, right? Clothes and gear in the main compartment. But how about the tent? Should it be strapped vertically outside the pack?

Man, I feel like such a newb, even though I've been doing this for 17 years...


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2003)

Greg said:
			
		

> Anyway, any advice on packing an internal? As pancho mentioned, I used to strap my sleeping bag to the bottom of my Jansport D2 and my tent rolled in my Ridge Rest to the top, horizontally. Clothes in the bottom compartment of the pack. Gear, e.g. stove, and food in the top compartment. Water bottles on the sides.
> 
> How should I pack the EMS 5500? I assume the sleeping bag is just stuffed in the bottom sans the stuff sack, right? Clothes and gear in the main compartment. But how about the tent? Should it be strapped vertically outside the pack?



Anyone?

Bueller?


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## Stephen (Jan 5, 2004)

Bump.

This is the pack I've been looking at myself. Would love to hear answer's to Greg's questions from anyone with one that's USED it (sorry, Greg...)    

-T


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## Greg (Jan 5, 2004)

the8re said:
			
		

> ... from anyone with one that's USED it (sorry, Greg...)
> 
> -T


No apologies. It *will* get used this summer!


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## Eaglescout1985 (Mar 31, 2004)

well i have an ems 3000 that i got in 5th grade, thats about 9 years old now cause i am a freshman in college with 4 weeks left in the last semester.  i love it, its light, but it is an old internal, so its a little umcomfortable.  im thinking of upgrading to the ems summit 5000 this summer.  as far as packing goes, we always learned in the scouts try to keep the heaviest stuff to the top and the lightest on the bottom.  there is a more percise way to do it, but i don't have a scanner to scan the diagram i have.  ill see what i can do.  also, the external frame pack i didn't like besides the fact i could put alot of shit on it with the diamondback hitch.  thats a fun set of knots.  really useful though.  but my preference is internal.


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## cantdog (Mar 31, 2004)

External, by EMS and 22 years old, because it's paid for!
I have never tried an internal and I don't multi day hike often enough to rationalize getting one.


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## MtnMagic (Mar 31, 2004)

Last summer an external Keltey Trekker (4300 cubes) was used comfortably during a 9 summit, two day trip in the Pemi. An external frame was recommended by my chiro and several store salesman.

Sky and I recently purchased an internal EMS 3000 TL (expandable to 3700 cubes) including a 101 oz hydration bag at the Concord, NH store which listed for $129 and was marked down to $60. A deal too good to pass. I've only used it on 3 hikes, the longest being up to the Lunch Rocks on Tuckerman Ravine. Feels good so far.

I was taught to pack the heavy stuff first, so you are not top heavy.

So the question is external or internal? Now having one of each, after a few 100 more hikes, I'll share my feelings. 
_________________
Who wants to go hiking?!
I do!!


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