# "Guerilla" Ski Instruction



## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2022)

A rather spirited discussion on this topic in the Vail Sucks thread.  I figured it's worthy of its own discussion.

It's an interesting topic for many reasons.

For one, I've seen a demand for this service this winter on social media like I haven't ever seen before. Specifically Facebook. Wealthy Moms and Dads, frantically wanting to pay someone to teach their kids to ski during their vacation because they missed the boat on booking lessons and the resort is sold out.

For two, there is the theft of services argument being made.  The mountains pay significantly in Insurance and payroll related costs to employ instructors to offer the service.

But......is it theft of services?

The reason I question whether or not it is theft of services is because there are regional ski racing teams and programs with private coaching all over the place.  And the coaches for those programs get paid.

When the Mount Washington Valley ski team shows up at Wildcat early season, which has paid coaches; the mountain is cool with it. The coaches don't have to pay to host and instruct their team.

But, if Joe Skier off the street offers to teach someone privately for a few hours at that same mountain, it's somehow theft of services.

Honestly, as I think about this, I believe freelance ski instructors would be a net positive to the industry.


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## machski (Mar 11, 2022)

Pretty sure I saw this happening from the Beaver Parking lot at Breckenridge ths past weekend.  Can't blame parents for using these non affiliated coaching services based on what Vail Resorts wants to charge.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

I think freelance ski instructing would be awesome and a net benefit. People would have an easier time finding lessons and the instructors would get a much larger %. The problem is the structure that is set up now is not conducive to that.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Mount Snow passholders facebook group is full of people looking for freelance instructors (and Vails spies watching)


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## Edd (Mar 11, 2022)

People give workout lessons at gyms they don’t work at right? I’ve never hired one not affiliated with the gym I was at.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2022)

I really question whether or not there's a legal vehicle to stop the practice. 

I'm thinking back to my ski bum years where I bartended 4 nights, Thursday through Sunday.  I skied all day M-W and then mornings on work nights. 

What if social media was big back then, and I decided to promote my own teaching skills (take out a limited liability insurance policy if I was really serious about it) and offered up midweek Private lessons at $50/HR knowing Stowe was charging $125. Promote it well with testimonials. 

The mountain has the advantage on weekends and holidays because of line cut privileges in lessons. But midweek when there are no lines, what's to stop a local skiing entrepreneur from inviting people to ski with them for $50/hr?


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> A rather spirited discussion on this topic in the Vail Sucks thread.  I figured it's worthy of its own discussion.
> 
> It's an interesting topic for many reasons.
> 
> ...



It is funny you raised that argument about ski racing teams. I was actually thinking of that exact same scenario after I made my last post on this topic in the Vail thread but didn't feel like going back and making another post in that thread. It is a great question why ski areas look the other way for that, but have an issue with Joe Skier doing the same thing.

I'm really still very curious about whether an actual case of "theft of services" has ever been charged and convicted for private ski instructing. I really feel like this is one of those myths that has perpetuated simply to scare people off. And it honestly probably works fairly well as a scare tactic. Who is going to actually have the time and/or money to go to that length to "test" it and find out?

And I've seen the same thing on Facebook this year with an enormous amount of people asking about private lessons. And in nearly all cases, it isn't because the people are trying to "screw" or "cheat" the mountain out of their money or think they're charging too much. 99% of the time it is as you said, people that already tried to get lessons through the mountain and were unable to do so due to them being booked.


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## drjeff (Mar 11, 2022)

The ski racing thing is actually easy to explain.

When you see a team from a different mountain at a ski area, that team, if they are there training, has contacted the mountain and at minimum received permission to train there, and often pay a rental fee above and beyond the cost of the lift ticket, to train there. This also doubles as a liability release. 

If you see a team just freeskiing with a coach, or presumed coach, on a non race day, chances are that they are just there like any member of the general population 8


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

As many of you know, I'm now teaching skiing at Alta.  It's my return to instructing after a few years in a supervisory role, and had taught plenty of years before that.

As far as underground teaching.... it's not cool.  That's a stance I think we can all agree on.  The argument should be-
1. Why is this becoming an issue?  What has happened in the industry to make it that this is happening?
2. What can the industry do to find a middle ground between the profit of the ski areas and the profit/wage/flexibility of the instructor's?  

@cdskier I brought up the "theft of services" into the Vail thread.  I'm not versed well enough in legality to argue (constructively) with you about whether or not it is "theft of services" by definition.  Regardless, one who was teaching someone at their own resort or another would certainly be kicked out of PSIA, and be in very very deep water with their home resort.  From my employee handbook- 


> Alta Ski Area has a special-use permit from the Forest Service to conduct ski area operations on specified public lands.
> Ski instruction/guiding conducted with the knowledge and approval of Alta Ski Area is an authorized activity and is
> within the scope of our special-use permit. Any ski teaching/guiding within the Alta Ski Area boundaries conducted
> without the knowledge and approval of Alta Ski Area is unauthorized and in potential violation of Forest Service
> regulations.


As far as a legal basis.... I can't give you one... I have no idea what Forest Service regulations that's in reference to.  But it says in plain English, "don't do it".  Just like every other ski area in the country tells their instructors.  

I would never teach off the books, like 98% of instructors out there.  That's not saying we like the system as it is!  It's simply the rules we have to live by.  The change to an independent contractor system would be huge.  It's a total 180 from our current system and I don't think it's happening in the distant-future.  Reasonable change I would like to see is within PSIA.  No one likes PSIA.  When I was part-time, it averaged out to me paying $200 a year in dues and education for a "job" which I made just under $1,000 in net paychecks each of my first 2 seasons.  Now it is a "real job" for me with decent money and the (now) $250ish average in education/dues each year is acceptable pocket change.  But for someone trying to teach weekends at the local feeder hill as I was, it's a huge expense.  Second, PSIA is too much involved in ski area management.  It should be an organization that looks out for its instructors, but unfortunately, many people (myself included) do not see it that way.  It's in a weird trifecta.  First, a lot of high PSIA members are high up in ski school management.  Second, PSIA is bizarrely involved in advertising itself which I have never understood.... as literally every mountain I've ever heard of is a PSIA-accredited ski school....any third party ski instructing associations died out 40 years ago, so it's pretty pointless.  Last, PSIA does not put its members first.  They are not arguing for better instructor pay.  They are not trying to fight for more benefits.  They only put out education and certification standards.  Let me add.... the certification/education is top notch, they've really overhauled the whole system from the ground up and it is much stronger than it was 10 years ago, IMO.  But they are not fighting on my behalf, as a trade organization should. 


I will clarify my points if anyone needs it.  I will add my thoughts as the thread develops.  I'm done with the "guerilla/underground" ski teaching discussion.  I've made my case against it, and will not defend it further.  I don't like discussing the topic at length as it is a moral dilemma.  One of my favorite people in the industry admitted he does that kind of thing and it was tough to respect him once I knew that.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I think freelance ski instructing would be awesome and a net benefit. People would have an easier time finding lessons and the instructors would get a much larger %. The problem is the structure that is set up now is not conducive to that.



Right.  I don't want people to think I'm here to defend the current system.  I just play by the current rules and make the most of it.  Like almost every single other instructor out there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 12, 2022)

We have friends who do it for their daughter.  They pay the friend in beer.  I am not going to say anything more.  The person was a ski instructor at one point.  Now a parent with young kids who skis with this family.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2022)

ss20 said:


> As many of you know, I'm now teaching skiing at Alta.  It's my return to instructing after a few years in a supervisory role, and had taught plenty of years before that.
> 
> *As far as underground teaching.... it's not cool.  That's a stance I think we can all agree on.*  The argument should be-
> 1. Why is this becoming an issue?  What has happened in the industry to make it that this is happening?
> ...


A stance we can all agree on? Judging simply by the posts so far in this thread, I don't think that's accurate to say. I certainly wouldn't have an issue with it.
#1 is easy to answer as well. Demand exceeds supply would be the main factor in why this is such a hot topic. Price the mountains charge is another one too (especially when people know how little makes it to the actual instructors).

As for your employee handbook...that's still just looking at things from the perspective of the instructor. The argument about "theft of services" has always been that would be the punishment for the person doing the hiring of the private instructor. I still think that's the part that's BS... I've never questioned the reasons why an active instructor wouldn't offer these type of services privately.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 12, 2022)

Seems pretty simple
I can’t just go into Shaws and sell my homegrown tomatoes can I?

Making profit at someone else place of business with out their permission and with out agreed to compensation is against free market principles and the law.

For me, like much of the black market economy, I don’t really care if it’s done but don’t act shocked when you get your hand slapped.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 12, 2022)

The smarter thing would be for the mountains to have a system where free lancers can register and pay a fee.
Helps the mountain with part time “employees” and allows the freelancer to charge what they can get while still compensating the resort.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Are the guide services in Europe offered by the mountain or private businesses?  If private, do they pay a fee to the resorts?


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## Smellytele (Mar 12, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Are the guide services in Europe offered by the mountain or private businesses?  If private, do they pay a fee to the resorts?


I hired a guide in Chamonix and it was private. Actually went to multiple places to ski in the same day (Vallee Blanche to start then to Grand Montets to ski the afternoon).
Don't think he paid a fee to the resorts.


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## skiur (Mar 12, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Seems pretty simple
> I can’t just go into Shaws and sell my homegrown tomatoes can I?
> 
> Making profit at someone else place of business with out their permission and with out agreed to compensation is against free market principles and the law.
> ...


You don't have to buy a lift ticket to go into shaws.


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## NYDB (Mar 12, 2022)

You could get around the payment issue like they did in Maine pre 10/9/20 or DC for marijuana sales.

You don't pay for the lesson. You pay the instructors for cool stickers they give you or some bullshit like that.  Or a donation.  Whatever really

Free market solution.


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## Edd (Mar 12, 2022)

The more I think about it, this should not be a problem at all.


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## Smellytele (Mar 12, 2022)

Maybe if the resorts didn't charge $1200 a day for a private lesson and only paid the instructor 120 then maybe there would be no need for it.


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## NYDB (Mar 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe if the resorts didn't charge $1200 a day for a private lesson and only paid the instructor 120 then maybe there would be no need for it.


yeah.  total bullshit.  Then they tell you, make sure and tip bigly! (since we don't pay them anything)


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

As for the theft of services a good example would be you can rent skis 3rd party and use them on the mountain. But you can’t  have a 3rd parry rental shack set up at the base of the mountain. Same goes for food. Thats where the theft of services argument could come in, I’m no lawyer though just my opinion.


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## urungus (Mar 12, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> As for the theft of services a good example would be you can rent skis 3rd party and use them on the mountain. But you can’t  have a 3rd parry rental shack set up at the base of the mountain. Same goes for food. Thats where the theft of services argument could come in, I’m no lawyer though just my opinion.


But guerrilla ski instructors are not setting up an office on the mountain, so IMO it is the same as getting off mountain rentals or food


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

urungus said:


> But guerrilla ski instructors are not setting up an office on the mountain, so IMO it is the same as getting off mountain rentals or food


If you are in online groups for a mountain offering rouge lessons I’d consider that akin to physically being there doing it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe if the resorts didn't charge $1200 a day for a private lesson and only paid the instructor 120 then maybe there would be no need for it.



That's kind of what I'm thinking.  The ski schools are understaffed because they pay dirt.  Customers feel ripped off paying $800 or whatever per day for private lessons at the major resorts.

So, it makes the environment ripe for a disgruntled former resort instructor to just post a Craigslist ad or whatever stating, "Private ski lessons, call for rates and locations." And the resorts gouging creates a market of people looking for a better deal.  They hook up with the freelancer and pay $400 to ski with them for the day.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Maybe the guilty parties get around it by saying, "I'm not a ski instructor.  I'm an emotional support skier. Little Jimmy gets very nervous on the black diamonds, so I'm here to calm him."


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe the guilty parties get around it by saying, "I'm not a ski instructor.  I'm an emotional support skier. Little Jimmy gets very nervous on the black diamonds, so I'm here to calm him."


On the snow babysitter/emotional support skier


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## Andrew B. (Mar 12, 2022)

skiur said:


> You don't have to buy a lift ticket to go into shaws.


You don’t have to sign a liability waiver either


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## Domeskier (Mar 12, 2022)

"Theft of services" seems like a stretch, especially if the claim is against the instructor.  Trespassing combined with something like unjust enrichment makes more sense conceptually.  The guerrilla instructor is making money using the resort's lifts and trails and other property in ways that are prohibited by the resort.


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## Zermatt (Mar 12, 2022)

In Europe it's common to have many ski schools operating on the same mountain. I do think they need to be certified though.


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## Smellytele (Mar 12, 2022)

Domeskier said:


> "Theft of services" seems like a stretch, especially if the claim is against the instructor.  Trespassing combined with something like unjust enrichment makes more sense conceptually.  The guerrilla instructor is making money using the resort's lifts and trails and other property in ways that are prohibited by the resort.


Not trespassing because they either have a pass or a day ticket but isn’t stealing any services per say either. They are not using any services from the mountain  they didn’t pay for.


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## Zermatt (Mar 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Not trespassing because they either have a pass or a day ticket but isn’t stealing any services per say either. They are not using any services from the mountain  they didn’t pay for.


If it's National Forest land they likely don't have a permit to conduct ski instruction.  If it's private land then the land owner has full control.


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## JimG. (Mar 12, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> That's kind of what I'm thinking.  The ski schools are understaffed because they pay dirt.  Customers feel ripped off paying $800 or whatever per day for private lessons at the major resorts.
> 
> So, it makes the environment ripe for a disgruntled former resort instructor to just post a Craigslist ad or whatever stating, "Private ski lessons, call for rates and locations." And the resorts gouging creates a market of people looking for a better deal.  They hook up with the freelancer and pay $400 to ski with them for the day.


And this is what a free market is all about. 

I'd have more sympathy for the theft of services argument if the mountains were not gouging customers (outright theft IMO) and paying peanuts to the instructors.


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## ss20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> If it's National Forest land they likely don't have a permit to conduct ski instruction.  If it's private land then the land owner has full control.



Exactly


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## ss20 (Mar 12, 2022)

This would be s good thread to add a poll to.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

I don’t think anyone is defending the price gouging or lack of instructors. More so playing devils advocate from the perspective of the mountain.


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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Seems pretty simple
> I can’t just go into Shaws and sell my homegrown tomatoes can I?
> 
> Making profit at someone else place of business with out their permission and with out agreed to compensation is against free market principles and the law.
> ...



Your example though still goes to a reason why an instructor would be punished or not able to do it. If someone were to somehow sell their homegrown tomatoes in Shaws and you purchased one, would you (as the consumer) be charged with stealing from the store? That's my whole argument that I have an issue with the "theft of services" claim against the consumer. I get the potential issues for the "provider" of the services. However anytime the question of private instructors comes up online (i.e. on Facebook in the various ski groups), the most common first response is that "it is illegal and you could be charged with theft of services if you hire a private instructor."

I think a potentially more relevant example would be this:
Some grocery stores offer a service where you can have them do the shopping for you. Yet I can also hire a private individual to do errands for me including things like grocery shopping (and just to head off one potential counter-argument, I'm not referring to something like Instacart that partners with the store...I'm referring to something more independent). That's a service the store offers, yet there's absolutely no way they could stop this practice and I see absolutely no law that this would violate.



Zermatt said:


> If it's National Forest land they likely don't have a permit to conduct ski instruction.  If it's private land then the land owner has full control.



I can agree with that reason...but again, that's a potential violation for the person providing the service, not a "theft of services" claim against the consumer.


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## JimG. (Mar 12, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I don’t think anyone is defending the price gouging or lack of instructors. More so playing devils advocate from the perspective of the mountain.


I understand that. 

My point is that maybe the business model that makes ski passes stupid cheap and everything else stupid expensive needs revision. Sure they could monitor the mountain to make sure there are no black market lessons going on but who is going to perform that task when they don't have snowmakers, lift attendants or any other support staff?

And how could they prove there was an illicit lesson going on? Make a rule that people cannot ski together?


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## Domeskier (Mar 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Not trespassing because they either have a pass or a day ticket but isn’t stealing any services per say either. They are not using any services from the mountain  they didn’t pay for.


They are using mountain property and assets for purposes not permitted under the limited license granted under the lift ticket.  Purchasing a lift ticket does not give them the right to conduct a business on mountain property using mountain assets.  They are entering mountain property with the intent to engage in activities prohibited by the mountain.  If that is not trespassing, I'm not sure what is.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 12, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I understand that.
> 
> My point is that maybe the business model that makes ski passes stupid cheap and everything else stupid expensive needs revision. Sure they could monitor the mountain to make sure there are no black market lessons going on but who is going to perform that task when they don't have snowmakers, lift attendants or any other support staff?
> 
> And how could they prove there was an illicit lesson going on? Make a rule that people cannot ski together?


Totally agree and I think the rules are more there to scare people than actually have legal ramifications.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 12, 2022)

JimG. said:


> And how could they prove there was an illicit lesson going on? Make a rule that people cannot ski together?


And that is the devil in this whole argument isn’t it.

Not sure the mountain can do anything to the free lance lesson taker but if they wanted to they are fully with in their rights as private or leased land holders to take action against the one benefiting ($$$) from their asset.


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## machski (Mar 12, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> And that is the devil in this whole argument isn’t it.
> 
> Not sure the mountain can do anything to the free lance lesson taker but if they wanted to they are fully with in their rights as private or leased land holders to take action against the one benefiting ($$$) from their asset.


They could, but I think the publicity blowback would be more severe to a resort than what they gain in a legal prosecution.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 12, 2022)

machski said:


> They could, but I think the publicity blowback would be more severe to a resort than what they gain in a legal prosecution.


The old “if i owned the hill” i wouldnt think its worth it.

word is out there that some resorts are watching social media to catch free lancers. If thats true, then someone sees value in stopping it. I bet the risk managers want them to stop it


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## machski (Mar 13, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> The old “if i owned the hill” i wouldnt think its worth it.
> 
> word is out there that some resorts are watching social media to catch free lancers. If thats true, then someone sees value in stopping it. I bet the risk managers want them to stop it


Done on the down low I'm sure they do want that.  I just couldn't imagine public backlash if say Vail Resorts cracked down hard and it got publicized.  But quietly doing it, by maybe going after them and then lightening up on punishment for a NDA, that would make sense.


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## faceplant (Mar 13, 2022)

Nsaa - suite 300
Psia - suite 200
must be justa coinkeedink !





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About Us     The Professional Ski Instructors of America and the American Association of Snowboard Instructors (PSIA-AASI) is the world’s largest organization dedicated to teaching people how to ski and snowboard. Join us and




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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

ss20 said:


> As far as *underground teaching.... it's not cool.  That's a stance I think we can all agree on.  *



Nope.  Don't care.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

ss20 said:


> * PSIA does not put its members first. *



Nothing could be further from you truth, you simply fail to understand who the PSIA members are.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> We have friends who do it for their daughter.  They pay the friend in beer.



Doubly illegal if it's keg beer!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

skiur said:


> *You don't have to buy a lift ticket to go into shaws.*



Yeah, his equivalence argument fails the logic test.

 It would be more accurate if he said you literally had to pay to walk into Shaws & literally had to pay to sell tomatoes, but the only tomatoes you couldn't sell were ones from your garden. lol


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## Abubob (Mar 17, 2022)

ss20 said:


> As far as underground teaching.... it's not cool.  That's a stance I think we can all agree on.
> 
> No one likes PSIA.  When I was part-time, it averaged out to me paying $200 a year in dues and education for a "job" which I made just under $1,000 in net paychecks each of my first 2 seasons.  Now it is a "real job" for me with decent money and the (now) $250ish average in education/dues each year is acceptable pocket change.  But for someone trying to teach weekends at the local feeder hill as I was, it's a huge expense.





ss20 said:


> Second, PSIA is too much involved in ski area management.  It should be an organization that looks out for its instructors, but unfortunately, many people (myself included) do not see it that way.  It's in a weird trifecta.  First, a lot of high PSIA members are high up in ski school management.  Second, PSIA is bizarrely involved in advertising itself which I have never understood.... as literally every mountain I've ever heard of is a PSIA-accredited ski school....any third party ski instructing associations died out 40 years ago, so it's pretty pointless.  Last, PSIA does not put its members first.  They are not arguing for better instructor pay.  They are not trying to fight for more benefits.  They only put out education and certification standards.


Funny, I don’t remember anyone agreeing that private ski instructors were not cool. Also funny how you proceed to list reasons why it is cool.


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

This whole thread makes me want to get a freelance lesson, not that I need one.  But considering how infrequent it must occur, who realy cares.  Unless you are one of those people who likes to bitch about something.  In reality, it's going to happen, no one is going find out(unless you are stupid), and most importantly.....Who really gives a F*#K!  I dont.


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## Hawk (Mar 17, 2022)

Mountain official:  HEY! are you taking a lesson from this guy!
Me: No he is my freind and is giving me some pointers.  Now F-off!
Mountain Official:  Grrrrr.  and skis off.


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## abc (Mar 19, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe if the resorts didn't charge $1200 a day for a private lesson and only paid the instructor 120 then maybe there would be no need for it.


Yep!

And the customer is forced to choose between supporting exploitation over “theft of service”!


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## Mainer (Mar 19, 2022)

My friend did a full day group lesson for his each of his 2 kids out west at $700 each. The instructors were j1s. I think they said it was 5 or 6 kids per lesson. Mountain made over $3000 a day per instructor. Kids still ski the same after. That people pay that kind of money is nuts for a lower intermediate lesson. If I wanted my kids to take a lesson, I’d certainly pay someone $500 under the table and save myself $900.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 19, 2022)

Mainer said:


> My friend did a full day group lesson for his each of his 2 kids out west at $700 each. The instructors were j1s. I think they said it was 5 or 6 kids per lesson. Mountain made over $3000 a day per instructor. Kids still ski the same after. That people pay that kind of money is nuts for a lower intermediate lesson. If I wanted my kids to take a lesson, I’d certainly pay someone $500 under the table and save myself $900.


In my opinion once a kid is around intermediate level you should put them into privates or its just glorified babysitting (albeit the kids can still learn something and have fun). One on one is always going to yield better results if someone truly wants to learn.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Mar 19, 2022)

​
what if the ski lessons are just an incidental path on the way to true enlightenment? can the rabbi still charge the $200?
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## chuckstah (Mar 19, 2022)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> ​
> what if the ski lessons are just an incidental path on the way to true enlightenment? can the rabbi still charge the $200?
> ​​A Course Offering​Skiing Using Terminology of Jewish Mysticism​
> Option 1: Ski "The 4-Worlds"
> ...


Joshua Segal is on this forum, although I haven't seen him post in a while. He is a die-hard skier based at Crotched, and is a patroller and instructor. I always take some runs with him when ever I run into him. I'm sure he would have made  that class lots of fun.


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## Kevin Schultz (Mar 19, 2022)

This reminds me of Uber and NYC Taxi Medallions. It was clearly illegal for Uber to come in and undercut the yellow cabs. They blatantly ignored that as a business strategy. Their bet was that with the general public on their side due to the superior customer experience there would be enough pressure on lawmakers to change the laws. Because ultimately the laws are downstream of public opinion. It's not even clear in this case that the law is obviously against freelance instructors. There's a lot of assertions and there's T&C on the lift ticket, but a law can absolutely supersede the writing on the back of a lift ticket.  

Basically, someone in New Hampshire where everyone is tired of Vail should make an Uber for Ski Instructors and see what happens. If it paid enough to the instructors and offered enough of a discount to the customers it would probably gain pretty good marketshare.


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## Smellytele (Mar 20, 2022)

on a side note a few weeks ago I tried to get an uber in Cleveland to the airport. They wanted over $150 I called a limo service and got a ride for $90.


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## Bond James Bond (Mar 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Mountain official:  HEY! are you taking a lesson from this guy!
> Me: No he is my freind and is giving me some pointers.  Now F-off!
> Mountain Official:  Grrrrr.  and skis off.


I love the sentiment Hawk. I just got called out on it last week. It was an extremely slow day. "We've been watching you", the woman said. I had a family of bunny slopers to start with but was with them for 2 1/2 days. But for the "f... off", I told her the same thing. "Ive been teaching my friends to ski my whole adult ski life. I'm not stealing anything from you." They approached the father of my ski family also with a similar gestapo "we've been watching you" threat. Then threw in the "you better have a ticket" just for the thrill of it. Truth is, they were closing in 2 days and had nothing to offer the folks who bought tickets including a base lodge that was closed, in the rain. Who's the thief? My take is that I never never never solicit at an area. Arrangements between me and my people are made independent of any area. They take me along. I go where they go. Where is the obvious signage or notice at the ticket booth that by purchasing a ticket to use their lifts, you agree to their greedy exclusivity? Is it theft of services to bring your own lunch and eat it in their lodge even though they offer food service? I never saw that on a ticket or at a ticket booth. Is it theft of services to bring your own nanny on vacation with you and to the mountain too? Why don't they sue the private ski rental businesses downtown that "steal" their rental business from them. Interesting how consistent they are not.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

Just seems strange that you cant go to a mountain..with whover and coach them during the day. I did this in park city a whole week. I didnt get paid for it as he was just with our group. I pretty much kept him alive on terrain over his head. 
How would anyone know you were doing this. Unless you were doing drills right under the lift.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Just seems strange that you cant go to a mountain..with whover and coach them during the day. I did this in park city a whole week. I didnt get paid for it as he was just with our group. I pretty much kept him alive on terrain over his head.
> How would anyone know you were doing this. Unless you were doing drills right under the lift.


Thats the whole anchor of this argument. If its fine to do it for free how can you ever tell if someone is being paid or just helping out someone learn.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

You cant.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 1, 2022)

Why can’t I buy a ticket to a movie and bring in popcorn to sell to the other patrons?


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Try it...make a video...


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 1, 2022)

I honestly can't believe this thread has made it to page 4...  Or that this is a really a huge problem anywhere.


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## drjeff (Apr 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I honestly can't believe this thread has made it to page 4...  Or that this is a really a huge problem anywhere.



Just a microcosm of what is going on in the ski industry the last few years. Staffing, for many is an issue. More people with passes, especially those who likely never had a pass before and may very well be of lower ability. Those folks are skiing/riding more, and want to either improve their skills OR more likley get their kids some lessons. And if those folks took the full plunge and moved themselves/family to a mountain location as a result of the pandemic, some demand for a seasonal program, especially for their kids, may now be there. The general lack of understanding of the ski industry by some of these people, especially when you factor in the "there;s an app for that"/"Air Bnb/VRBO/Uber/Lyft" third party contracting movement that has spread like wildfire the last 5+ years or so, and you get what we are seeing more an more now.

Who knows how it all works out in the coming years.

As much as some people like to rag on the PSIA crowd, especially when you get past the level 1 stage, the amount of time, effort, and dedication it takes to achieve level 2 and level 3 is impressive (I'll throw in the same for USSSA race coach status as well), even if not everyone has the mindset to either teach/coach in the first place or follow through with the years it takes to reach the higher levels


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Im contemplating it. You get free passes for yourself and wife...best part is the clinics with other instructors..you become better. 
Not sure if i have the right stuff for it though.


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## Edd (Apr 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> best part is the clinics with other instructors..you become better.


That would be the best part. Socially, I don’t ski with people better than me so I rarely get pushed or instructed.


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## drjeff (Apr 1, 2022)

Edd said:


> That would be the best part. Socially, I don’t ski with people better than me so I rarely get pushed or instructed.



I have a bunch of friends who are level 2 and level 3 instructors and race coaches who I often hang out with socially, as well as take some runs with when they're on the hill but not on the clock.  If you're into the technical side of skiing, when they start talking shop, it can be really interesting, especially when some of the often small movements/changes they get talking about transfer into improvements in my own skiing on the hill. If one isn't into the technical side of things, well then some of the conversations certainly have the ability to seem way over the top.  Honestly plenty of one's feelings on this topic are very likely to do with how open they may very well be to learning some more about their own skiing verses just getting out on the hill and skiing


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## skiur (Apr 1, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Why can’t I buy a ticket to a movie and bring in popcorn to sell to the other patrons?


If the movie theater was charging $100 for popcorn people might start trying.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

When lessons where cheap i would always take one at JH or Snowbird...now forget it.
As far as teaching...teaching kids would be my fear. And that seems to be the majority of it.


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2022)

skiur said:


> If the movie theater was charging $100 for popcorn people might start trying.


Plus some people DO bring their own snacks in, which you could potentially equate with someone bringing their own instructor along with them to a ski resort.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Except..they fit... in a pocket.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Plus some people DO bring their own snacks in, which you could potentially equate with someone bringing their own instructor along with them to a ski resort.


bringing your own snack (although against most theatres rule) is one thing, selling them to other patrons would be more offensive to the business owner.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 1, 2022)

skiur said:


> If the movie theater was charging $100 for popcorn people might start trying.


Pretty sure like ski instructors people definitely do this


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> bringing your own snack (although against most theatres rule) is one thing, selling them to other patrons would be more offensive to the business owner.


True...but no one is asking for private instructors to actively "sell" their services AT the resorts. So your original comment is not an apples to apples comparison. What people are asking for is more like a street vendor selling food outside a theater that people then sneak into the theater.


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## djd66 (Apr 1, 2022)

If you are soliciting business at a ski resort - that in my opinion is stealing from the resort.  If you are off the resort property and offer to teach someone to ski, that transaction took place off of the resort and in my opinion - is not stealing.


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## Smellytele (Apr 1, 2022)

Doesn’t matter what any of us think. It is what the lawyers can or cannot prove to the judge if it comes to that.


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## JimG. (Apr 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> When lessons where cheap i would always take one at JH or Snowbird...now forget it.
> As far as teaching...teaching kids would be my fear. And that seems to be the majority of it.


lol teaching kids is EASY compared to adults.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 2, 2022)

I hear that a lot.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> True...but no one is asking for private instructors to actively "sell" their services AT the resorts. So your original comment is not an apples to apples comparison. What people are asking for is more like a street vendor selling food outside a theater that people then sneak into the theater.


Not really
It’s a private property thing and what your license  (lift ticket) to use that property includes. Regardless of where you negotiate the deal, the services are rendered on private property.

Is enforcing it practical, NO 
Would any resort want the publicity that comes with cracking down, NO

No one is enforcing this legally as mentioned earlier. To make a legal case stick would require a rather lengthy sting operation with wires and cameras. For what? To pull someone’s pass???? The people doing this don’t have big money to sue for, I assume they are all doing it as part of their “3 gigs for 1 bed” ski bum life. But make no mistake IT IS within the resorts rights to enforce it if they so desired.


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## Bond James Bond (Apr 3, 2022)

Well, this is a big thing. Maybe some of us should be mouthing off about theft of our right of operating a private enterprise that has nothing to do with the services that any resort of any kind offers other than access to the slopes. Like I said, I never, never, never solicit at or anywhere near an area. People who know me spread the word a bit and pass me around. Bringing your own food to a restaurant or popcorn to a theatre is different. That's in direct conflict with the main product of those business. As I said before, why not harass people for bringing their own lunch? Their own nanny? Under their rules & from their perspective then, it must be a crime to rent skis from anyone but them because they offer that on site too! Because you purchase their main product, a lift ticket, aka, access, you are expected to forfeit all rights of personal association? Maybe resorts need to become clubs for members only who have to abide by club rules where it's more of a contract or agreement to abide by a constitution or other limitations. Purchasing a lift ticket at a ticket window is no such agreement as far as I know. If I make an arrangement of any kind with a friend, an associate, a cousin, a stranger........ how the hell do they get to claim proprietorship over my arrangement just because I am purchasing their one main product. We actually bring them business by selecting them as a destination to do business with as skiers. What's next? They going to harass people for not skiing using the specific method that they teach? These resorts are named ski resorts, not teaching camps. Popcorn would be bringing your own clients to a teaching camp, not a mountain you pay the fare to access.


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## Domeskier (Apr 3, 2022)

Bond James Bond said:


> Like I said, I never, never, never solicit at or anywhere near an area.



It doesn't matter where you solicit your customers.  You are running a personal business using private property and assets that don't belong to you.  End of story.  I will go out on a limb and guess that you don't report the income to the IRS either.


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## abc (Apr 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Is enforcing it practical, NO
> *Would any resort want the publ6icity that comes with cracking down*, NO


Why is the publicity such a bad thing for the resort to worry about?

Could it have to do with letting the public know the huge gap between what the learners pay to the ski school vs the wages the ski school pay to the instructors?

I’d say as long as resorts don’t want the public to know how poorly paid their instructors are, “guerrilla instructors” have nothing to fear about crack down.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Why is the publicity such a bad thing for the resort to worry about?
> 
> Could it have to do with letting the public know the huge gap between what the learners pay to the ski school vs the wages the ski school pay to the instructors?
> 
> I’d say as long as resorts don’t want the public to know how poorly paid their instructors are, “guerrilla instructors” have nothing to fear about crack down.


Pick your reason and that one is as good as any other.
I don’t think the Guerrilla’s have anything to worry about either.


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## abc (Apr 5, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Pick your reason and that one is as good as any other.
> I don’t think the Guerrilla’s have anything to worry about either.


Capitalism dictates arbitrage takes place where blatantly unfair pricing exist.

Of course when that unfair pricing is "protected by law", the arbitraging will take the form of Guerrillas operation.

The practice being unfair dictates enforcement of that unfair law will be lacking. For if it's widely enforced, the negative publicity will likely lead to the abolishment of the unfair practice entirely.

So the Guerrillas can operate without much worry.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 5, 2022)

abc said:


> Capitalism dictates arbitrage takes place where blatantly unfair pricing exist.
> 
> Of course when that unfair pricing is "protected by law", the arbitraging will take the form of Guerrillas operation.
> 
> ...


Capitalism and human nature are interchangeable in this case (imo).

But yes, we agree on the forces at play here and the likely outcome


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 5, 2022)

abc said:


> Capitalism dictates arbitrage takes place where blatantly unfair pricing exist.
> 
> Of course when that unfair pricing is "protected by law", the arbitraging will take the form of Guerrillas operation.
> 
> ...


Well said...


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## Hawk (Apr 5, 2022)

We are still on this.  LOL
I wonder who on here has not in some way, shape or form, committed theft of services. I freely admit I am guilty of it on a whole range of things over the years. Anything from bringing my own beers into the lodge to scamming my college pass for a few years to hiking up to upper lifts so I would not need a ticket. These are the things that younger folks do. Why because they can and it was needed to perpetuate your ski bum existence. I can't, with a clear conscience say I have an issue with any of it. I would be a hypocrite.  I am older now and just pay my way whatever it is.  But I still have that independant spirit that see's things like this and I think to myself, good for you.  I have never really been a fan of the bigger corporations that fleese the masses.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 5, 2022)

Shit i did when I was younger..hmm


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## 2Planker (Apr 5, 2022)

Every Ski Pro does it. If they say NO, they're lying.....   

Resorts have to look the other way, or they'd loose 1/2 their instructors.   
My BIL gets $1K/day for an "all day lesson" w/ 2-3 kids, who are pretty good skiers
He'll make $3-4K CA$H during school vac weeks.


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## Edd (Apr 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Every Ski Pro does it. If they say NO, they're lying.....
> 
> Resorts have to look the other way, or they'd loose 1/2 their instructors.
> My BIL gets $1K/day for an "all day lesson" w/ 2-3 kids, who are pretty good skiers
> He'll make $3-4K CA$H during school vac weeks.


For private non-ski area affiliated lessons?


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## 2Planker (Apr 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> For private non-ski area affiliated lessons?


Yupper. His gain, is SR's loss.
Been happening for 10-15 years at least


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 8, 2022)

Hawk said:


> I wonder who on here has not in some way, shape or form, committed theft of services.



And you may not even know, depending on whose opinion you ask.

A few years ago I was brainstorming here how people get any skiing time in with young kids, and I said maybe a few times a year I was thinking I could buy a one-day & ski for a few hours while my wife was entertaining the little one in the lodge, and then I could come in and given her the ski ticket & let her do the same for a few hours.  Most people here were cool with that idea & some said they did just that when they were new parents, but there were a few people here that got all uppity & self-righteous about it saying that I would be "stealing", which never even crossed my mind as the resort is actually getting money this way as opposed to not getting any money.  But I was shocked how passionately angry a few people got at this very suggestion.   Since then, I've noticed there's actually a cohort of ski resorts that expressly allow parents to do this.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 8, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> And you may not even know, depending on whose opinion you ask.
> 
> A few years ago I was brainstorming here how people get any skiing time in with young kids, and I said maybe a few times a year I was thinking I could buy a one-day & ski for a few hours while my wife was entertaining the little one in the lodge, and then I could come in and given her the ski ticket & let her do the same for a few hours.  Most people here were cool with that idea & some said they did just that when they were new parents, but there were a few people here that got all uppity & self-righteous about it saying that I would be "stealing", which never even crossed my mind as the resort is actually getting money this way as opposed to not getting any money.  But I was shocked how passionately angry a few people got at this very suggestion.   Since then, I've noticed there's actually a cohort of ski resorts that expressly allow parents to do this.


Technically “Theft of service” according to the back of the ticket.
No way on earth that anyone in management would even think of bothering a mom or dad in that situation….. not at all……EVER.


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## djd66 (Apr 8, 2022)

I’m thinking with the face scan technology they have on the RFID gates - they may say somethIng?


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## Andrew B. (Apr 8, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I’m thinking with the face scan technology they have on the RFID gates - they may say somethIng?


Maybe but it won’t amount to anything


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## Zermatt (Apr 26, 2022)

Oh.









						Rangers successfully investigate and convict illegal backcountry guide within Grand Canyon National Park - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
					






					www.nps.gov


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## Smellytele (Apr 26, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Idiot was advertising


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## 2Planker (Apr 26, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a whole different thing...
No one's claiming to be Certified on a bunch of stuff


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## abc (Apr 26, 2022)

"... had been previously contacted and warned by park staff regarding his illegal operation but continued his activities."

He's an idiot. Seems like he was asking for the punishment.



2Planker said:


> That's a whole different thing...
> No one's claiming to be Certified on a bunch of stuff


Is it that different? He's been warned about requiring a permit. He continued operating without one. 

Basically, pretending he has a permit when he knew perfectly well he doesn't have one. That no different from claiming to be Certified when none exist.


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## Zermatt (Apr 26, 2022)

abc said:


> "... had been previously contacted and warned by park staff regarding his illegal operation but continued his activities."
> 
> He's an idiot. Seems like he was asking for the punishment.
> 
> ...


Same applies to ski areas that operate mostly on federal land. There is no question that charging for ski lessons on federal land without a permit is a crime.

This guy would have gotten away with if he stopped when asked by the NPS.


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## abc (Apr 26, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> This guy would have gotten away with if he stopped when asked by the NPS.


Or apply for a permit.

But I don't know what it takes to get a permit granted. Maybe it's as pointless as getting hired as a ski instructor on a mountain (get paid < 1/10 of what the customer paid)

The "punishment" isn't all that severe. Perhaps he gambled he'd be better off operating without permit TILL he gets caught...?


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 26, 2022)

People take selfies in front of the liquor store they just robbed...social media idiocy..
Makes the investigation easy...


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## Andrew B. (Apr 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Idiot was advertising


And told to stop
#darwin


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## abc (Apr 26, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> People take selfies in front of the liquor store they just robbed...social media idiocy..


Or the guy who take picture of his dashboard to show the speed he was driving... way, way over the limit!


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