# Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity on your ski vehicle?



## ski220 (Sep 15, 2009)

I am agonizing over what to replace my current ski vehicle with.  My last 6 have been 3 Subarus, a Audi 4004 Quattro, a Jeep Cherokee (not Grand) and now a Volvo station wagon.  All 4WD except the Volvo, which is AWD.  

Prior to those cars I always had 2WD (rear) vehicles and never really had a problem in the snow.  Even when I lived in Colorado.  I would just put the beefiest snow tires on.  Worked better then FWD with all season radials.

So.  Is anybody running 2WD or are all the hard corer skiers sporting 4WD/AWD?


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## RootDKJ (Sep 15, 2009)

Here's the rundown of my last few cars...

2003 Toyota Rav4 4WD - great in the snow
2005 Chevy Colorado - Inline 5 cylinder engine, no weight.  Death trap in the snow.
2006 Chevy Malibu V6 - FWD, never had any problems
2008 Ford Escape Hybrid - AWD.  Like a tank in the snow.


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## mondeo (Sep 15, 2009)

Yes:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests..._lancer_evo_vs_2009_subaru_wrx_sti/index.html


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## Terry (Sep 16, 2009)

2002 Honda Accord FWD with decent snow tires, never had a problem going where we wanted to go.


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## snoseek (Sep 16, 2009)

Never had a problem with fwd. I take my car to the mountains just about every time it snows. Snow tires help a lot.


I would guess about 80 percent of the cars in the I-70 crash derby are SUV's or Suburu, yes Suburu.


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## riverc0il (Sep 16, 2009)

No. Snow tires are more important than AWD or 4WD. Of course, both snows and AWD trump all... but it is completely unnecessary. Maybe one or two days an entire winter I think "that would have been a little easier with AWD in addition to snows" but I have never found myself overly inconvenienced due to the lack of AWD so I say it is not a high priority on what is important in a vehicle.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2009)

Personally...yes.  Not for travel to the mountains, but for handling long Boston-area commutes in snowy weather.

In general...no.  Agree that tires are as much, if not more important, than whether a car can drive all 4 wheels.

In addition, not all AWD systems are the same.  Some part-time systems don't react all that quickly to shift power to the other wheels and aren't that much better than FWD.


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## andyzee (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd go with 4 wheel, but good tires are a must as well. I have a 4runner and oem tires were crap in snow and rain. Purchase some nice all terrain tires and made all the difference.


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## andrec10 (Sep 16, 2009)

Our Ski vehicles have been 4wd and then AWD since 1996, starting with a Toyota 4-runner with snows. My wife works for a hospital, so not getting to work is not an option. Right now its a Subie Tribeca with Michelin snows, What a mtn goat! So basically for us it is a neccessity!


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## jarrodski (Sep 16, 2009)

being able to drive when no one else can is a very important factor when i purchase a vehical.  i find myself driving at wierd hours (3am, 4am, 12am) and in anything other than my van or sub-y i feel as though i'd never make it to where i go... 

that said... its pretty annoying driving friends and family all over the place because they can't get to work, home from work, to a dying pony... pretty much anywhere that isnt to a ski area.


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## Geoff (Sep 16, 2009)

I think the answer is:  "It depends".

If you tend to stay in places with good plowing, a FWD car with very good snow tires is just fine.   At most, you have to shovel the snow bank a little to get out of your parking spot in the morning.   In that once per season epic dump, you have to spend an extra five minutes digging out.   Two winters ago, I drove my VW GTI to Killington every weekend.   I never had a problem.   The plowing at my condo is very good.   They come within 2 or 3 feet of my bumper and I'm always plowed by 7:30.   I have Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60's.   On plowed, snow-covered roads, the GTI has way better road manners than my AWD Mountaineer.   I rarely hit roads with enough unplowed slop that ground clearance is an issue.   The only time I have an issue is in 6" of wet slop where the GTI wants to float on top where the heavier Mountaineer will plow right through.

If you often stay at places with crappy plowing or if you have a nasty hill to cope with, it's a different decision.   If I drove the Roxbury Gap road to Sugarbush every weekend, it would be a no-brainer.  An AWD car costs more to buy.   An AWD car gets worse fuel economy.   Over the long haul, an AWD car is likely to be somewhat more expensive to maintain since there are more moving parts.

The length of your commute and other non-skiing driving also influences the decision.   If you're commuting 100 miles per day, the extra fuel burn really adds up.   If you don't have much of a commute and you don't have big summer drives, it's easier to justify having an AWD car since you'll own it for a lot of years.

I think it also depends on your snow driving skills.   AWD and good snow tires buys you a lot of margin.  In northern New England, lots of locals drive around all year in older FWD Detroit metal with dubious all season tires.   They have the driving skills to get around just fine.   A flatlander with the same car will be all over the place.


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## jarrodski (Sep 16, 2009)

snoseek said:


> Never had a problem with fwd. I take my car to the mountains just about every time it snows. Snow tires help a lot.
> 
> 
> I would guess about 80 percent of the cars in the I-70 crash derby are SUV's or Suburu, yes Suburu.



if you drive like an ass it wouldnt matter what you're in... 

i noticed a lot of Explorers off the road on RT 91... south bound just north of brattleboro... pretty much everytime it snows.   

the best is when you get passed by them and claim it...  i like the honk and wave move while the wife is screaming and kicking and the husbands still trying to drive it out.... of a 4 foot bank... awesome


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## Geoff (Sep 16, 2009)

ishovelsnow said:


> if you drive like an ass it wouldnt matter what you're in...
> 
> i noticed a lot of Explorers off the road on RT 91... south bound just north of brattleboro... pretty much everytime it snows.



The stock tires on an Exploder suck.   It's a really heavy car.   Braking distances and cornering are a big problem in snow and frightening on black ice.   If you ever approach a corner too fast or have to do emergency braking, you're screwed.   I have studded Nokians on my Mountaineer.


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## Glenn (Sep 16, 2009)

We've got an Audi and a Grand Cherokee. Both have significantly different drivelines. To make a long story short, the Jeep has a more traditional 4wheel drive system with open diffs. The Audi has auto locking diffs/limited slip and traction control. It's a lot harder to get the Audi to spin...or wag the rear end out. What I like about the Jeep is the ground clearance. I've come home after work and our street as been plowed and we have a nice "winrow" at the end of the driveway. I can just burly through that with the Jeep. With the Audi, I get some interesting scraping going on uder there. 

A lot comes down to how the roads are cared for and how well traveled they are. In VT, we're a bit off the beaten path. So 4wheel drive and the extra ground clearance make a big difference when things get really snowy.


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## BackLoafRiver (Sep 16, 2009)

Past three seasons, I have been in my Mazda 3 with all-seasons and had no issues. (knock on wood)   I drive from Augusta to Kingfield all backroad (rt 27) and it gets plowed moderately well. 

I have been going back and forth as to whether or not to trade in the 3 for an Outback. (not only for traction but for storage)  

Gonna try one more season with my current ride and throw some beefy snow tires on it to see what happens.


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## severine (Sep 16, 2009)

You don't need it.. but it's nice to have.

My prior ski vehicle was, laughably, a VW Cabrio. Hell, I couldn't even put the skis on top at the time! :lol: It worked well enough in snow in getting us to the mountains, even up to VT from CT... but it sure is easier with the Blazer even when the tires were semi-bald last winter.


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## hammer (Sep 16, 2009)

There's a real deja vu to this discussion...must be a glitch in the Matrix...


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## WWF-VT (Sep 16, 2009)

Our two ski vehicles are both AWD an Audi Wagon and Subaru Outback.  We commute to the Mad River Valley most every weekend during the winter.  Last year the Audi had Dunlop Winter tires and the Subaru stock Bridgestone all season tires.  Our road is a pretty steep hill with a 50-50 chance of being plowed.  Biggest difference between the two cars is the tires.  All season tires on the Subaru suck compared to winter tires on the Audi. This year will be putting winter tires on the Subaru too. Bottom line is that AWD / 4WD or FWD are all better off with proper snow tires if you are going to spend time in ski country.


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## drjeff (Sep 16, 2009)

Yup.  I'm out driving in a storm 98% of the time on my way to/from the mountain.  It has to be real ugly for me not to make the drive.  Plus, the road I live on at home first makes a steep 150 foot climb and then a steep, winding 350 foot descent between the main connecting road and my driveway, and over the years I've seen many a neighbor NOT be able to make it up both sides of the hill on my street with a 2wd vehicle.


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## Warp Daddy (Sep 16, 2009)

IT DEPENDS  on your circumstances IMO 

I 've always driven Saabs  w/FWD  and stock tires and have never had a problem driving to anywhere . I ski in the Dack's and Tremblant and have been in some pretty mean stuff >

BUT  living in extreme northern ny state along the Canadian border  i  drove daily in snow country and comuted to work approx 20 miles one way and never missed a day due to weather in over 35 yrs  . I either rear or  FWD .  

Being retired i can ski ANYDAY  and up here the roads are well plowed  both by the state and the villages so its rarely an issue


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## SkiDork (Sep 16, 2009)

Geoff - I've often tought about not having 4WD at the exit of our condo when entering the access road making that right.  I shudder when I think that.


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## Talisman (Sep 16, 2009)

For me having a 4 x 4 makes getting to and from the mountain a sure thing.  The rental house driveway doesn't get plowed until mid-morning and the town roads in Mt Holly may see some sand early but usually only Rt 103 sees the state plow.  A 4 x 4 with snow/ice tires takes the guess work out of the hills and estimating stopping distances.  My wife has an easier time being a passenger on the hauls north in storm conditions and while getting to the mounatins in the snow.


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## campgottagopee (Sep 16, 2009)

Nope, but it sure is nice to have at times. However, if you ever come to visit me at my house then it is a MUST to get up my driveway. :roll:


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## Philpug (Sep 16, 2009)

snoseek said:


> I would guess about 80 percent of the cars in the I-70 crash derby are SUV's or Subaru, yes Suburu.


And 96% of statistics are made up on the spot. So...80% are SUV's and Subarus, Yes Subarus...so 79 of those vehicles could have been SUV's and 1 was a Subaru? 

I am really thinking about replacing my Subie with a Jetta TDi wagen. My past 4 ski mobiles were Subies but not being in love with the Forester and there is no new Legacy SW (even if there was one coming it is too big), I am thinking of leaving Subaru. I think the Jetta with 4 snows (a must) will do the job. 

Good snows are more important that the type of drive.


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## umby (Sep 16, 2009)

I had a 2000 Mercury Mountaineer with a V8 and AWD up until recently when I went down to a 2009 Subaru Outback Sport. I never had snow tires on the mountaineer and never had any real issues, but I am a very cautious driver in the snow. I also will admit that it sucked when trying to corner with any speed and going down hills could be sketchy.

I am going to get some snow tires for the Subaru because I hear the all seasons that come stock on my car suck in the snow (despite the car salesman saying "those tires are great in the snow, the are all seasons!"). I may also pick up a skid plate for my subaru to protect the underside from ice snowbanks and other stuff since the car is so much lower than my previous vehicle.

AWD/4WD may not be entirely necessary, but it makes me feel much safer knowing that I can get through most conditions. I would not want to get stuck in a bad storm with limited cell phone service late at night. The added ability of AWD or 4WD could be the difference of you getting to where you going and having to walk along a road at night to find help...


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## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 16, 2009)

Depends whether you know how to drive or not to drive in snow.  For me, it really makes no difference with 4 wheel drive or 2 wheel drive.  I drive 89, 95, 93, and 90 alot in northern NE and I think 75% of the vehicles off the road in snowstorms are AWD/4WD, and alot of them are Trucks and oversized SUV's..........however this past winter I drove my 2WD ford fusion with low profile factory rims/tires and it was a little hairy at tiems, but still manageable.  Normally I would get snow tires, but considering the car is leased I was not spending the money on 4 tires that I would never use again after two winters.


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## severine (Sep 16, 2009)

hammer said:


> There's a real deja vu to this discussion...must be a glitch in the Matrix...


So save them the trouble of looking it up, post the link, and let the mods know so they can merge. 

I do have to say that if we never allowed new discussions of things that have been discussed before, however, we would run out of things to discuss.


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## mister moose (Sep 16, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> Geoff - I've often tought about not having 4WD at the exit of our condo when entering the access road making that right.  I shudder when I think that.



You just need to change your thinking/planning.  If conditions are marginal traction (regardless of what vehicle you're in) approach the intersection slowly, but keep momentum, like 5-7 mph.  Watch the left, and as the sight lines come in, decide if it's clear to go for it.  If it's clear, add a little power but not enough to spin the wheels, do not stop at the intersection, and keep the momentum going on the uphill turn.  If it's not clear, stop (easy from 5mph on the slight uphill grade there), back up, and try again.  There are many places in the winter where you won't be able to start up from a dead stop.  The answer is to drive and plan so you don't stop there.  This is also why you should never be right on someone's butt in the snow, especially when going up an incline, or at an intersection.  He might need to back up to get going again.

I think the advent of the popularity of SUV and AWD sedans has caused many people to just ride on all seasons year round.  Then they think that 2WD or FWD would be inadequate, since there are days when they slip slide around in 4WD.  "How could I ever drive a 2WD car in this?"  Pre SUV, we all bought snow tires, at least in far geater numbers.  Studs were more common as well.  We had several rear wheel drive wagons growing up that had studs for the winter.

A FrontWD car with good snow tires is all you need 99.9% of the time.


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## SkiDork (Sep 16, 2009)

mister moose said:


> You just need to change your thinking/planning.  If conditions are marginal traction (regardless of what vehicle you're in) approach the intersection slowly, but keep momentum, like 5-7 mph.  Watch the left, and as the sight lines come in, decide if it's clear to go for it.  If it's clear, add a little power but not enough to spin the wheels, do not stop at the intersection, and keep the momentum going on the uphill turn.  If it's not clear, stop (easy from 5mph on the slight uphill grade there), back up, and try again.  There are many places in the winter where you won't be able to start up from a dead stop.  The answer is to drive and plan so you don't stop there.  This is also why you should never be right on someone's butt in the snow, especially when going up an incline, or at an intersection.  He might need to back up to get going again.
> 
> I think the advent of the popularity of SUV and AWD sedans has caused many people to just ride on all seasons year round.  Then they think that 2WD or FWD would be inadequate, since there are days when they slip slide around in 4WD.  "How could I ever drive a 2WD car in this?"  Pre SUV, we all bought snow tires, at least in far geater numbers.  Studs were more common as well.  We had several rear wheel drive wagons growing up that had studs for the winter.
> 
> A FrontWD car with good snow tires is all you need 99.9% of the time.





I'm actually a fine snow driver, been doing it for years.  Got plenty of practice doing donuts in parking lots as a teenager ;-)

What you describe in that location is virtually impossible.  Here's the problem:  (more of a problem when there's a fair amount of snow in the driveway and even worse when the access road is poorly plowed)

1) Normally a large snowbank that blocks the view of the traffic coming up the access road unless you poke your nose out to the edge of the driveway.  Additionally, its an uphill driveway, then turning right onto the uphill access road.

2) Once you get to the "take a peek" location, 9 times out of 10 you have to stop and wait for 10 or 20 cars to pass until you get a chance to go.  Inching out further before its clear is highly discourteous to the up-access road traffic

3) When there's an opening, its many times a "small" opening, requiring your vehicle to be able to get out into the road smartly with little delay, otherwise you're being a jackass to the next line of cars coming up behind you.

I imagine this sort of scenario plays out in many areas of the access road, and at other ski areas as well.  The bottom line is, with the 4WD I never really have much of a problem.  Without it, the whole operation becomes just that much more difficult.  Not impossible but difficult.

edit:  I have 4 Nokain Hakkapalitas on it, as recommended by Geoff.  That helps too.


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## tarponhead (Sep 16, 2009)

Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?


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## SkiDork (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?




I got some cheap steel rims online and have the snows mounted on them ($75 each for 4).  The disadvantage if that is they're starting to rust a bit in spots so they look a little crappy, plus I lost my tire pressure sensors so the panel always says "check tire pressure" for the entire winter.  Advantage is they're easy to swap, although I do have the shop that sold the tires to me do it (for free).


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## midd (Sep 16, 2009)

I split the difference and had Nokian WR G2's mounted on my 2005 accord last winter.  drove route 16 through a few storms without a hitch. 

work a 1.8 miles from home, and generally take the bus, so I'm hardly racking miles up on them. plus it helps ensure the weekly trips all winter from Southie to Conway occur without a hitch.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?



I swap the tires on my regular rims.  Direct Tire in Boston area offers free change over service.


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## mondeo (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?


Dedicated rim, avoids paying for the swap twice a year. Depending on the vehicle, it may also allow you to go to smaller wheels, which offsets the cost of the wheel with a cheaper tire and also a narrower tire, better for snow.

You people are missing the entire fun part of the equation. 0-60 in under 10 seconds, on snow. Then there's the drifting, and general hooliganism possible when all wheels are driven.


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## mister moose (Sep 16, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> I'm actually a fine snow driver, been doing it for years.  Got plenty of practice doing donuts in parking lots as a teenager ;-)
> 
> What you describe in that location is virtually impossible.  Here's the problem:  (more of a problem when there's a fair amount of snow in the driveway and even worse when the access road is poorly plowed)
> 
> ...



Right. I know the layout.   In high traffic locations, you're very screwed in uphill starts from a blind spot. One thing you can do then is post a lookout who will give you the high sign on when you can go (and keep going).  Another is turn onto the shoulder (if it isn't too deep) and merge later.  On snowy days everyone is in single file on that 3-4 lane road, and there's usually room on the right.  Or turn downhill, go to a flatter portion of the access road, or one with a slight downhill entance (like the Basin parking lot) and re-enter going uphill there.  There are always options.

I would think most drivers when conditions are slippery wouldn't think someone is a jackass making a rolling stop on a up-hill turn, and would let you in with no ill thoughts.(I'm talking about spacing where he is forced to slow down, not so close as too force him into a skid)  On snowy days, there is noticably less traffic, so its less of an issue.

So yes, if you're running late, are alone, the sightlines suck and there is a 14" winrow of snow at the end of the driveway, 4WD is a wonderful thing.  

The point I'm making is not that 4WD doesn't come in handy on occasions.  It does.  But FWD is still manageable, and there are solutions to most driving problems so you can still own a FWD car if you prefer it the rest of the year.


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## Talisman (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?



Dedicated steel rims.  It really makes swapping out the snow/ice tires for the all season tires easy in my garage.  Snow & Ice tires have a soft compaund that wears quickly in warmer temperatures.


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## millerm277 (Sep 16, 2009)

With snow tires, in normal wintry weather, I'm fine even with my RWD car (normal wintry weather meaning: not a storm, but snow on the ground, and potentially less than 2-3" on the road). In a storm, the 4WD does come in handy though, especially in some of the examples given (top of a sloped driveway waiting to pull out into traffic).

So, personal opinion is: If you're someone who wants to be able to drive in the snow, the 4WD/AWD does have a definite advantage over the FWD vehicles.


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## mister moose (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?



Since steel rims rust, I like to find cheap aluminum rims on ebay, then have dedicated snows.  Change em over myself.  Good time to look at the brake pads twice a year.  You do need the storage space for the off season tires though.


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## campgottagopee (Sep 16, 2009)

mister moose said:


> Since steel rims rust, I like to find cheap aluminum rims on ebay, then have dedicated snows.  Change em over myself.  Good time to look at the brake pads twice a year.  You do need the storage space for the off season tires though.



By the time steel rims rust to the point of not holding air I think you'd be on to a new car anyways.


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## 4aprice (Sep 16, 2009)

Currently I own a Dodge Durango with most of the bells and whistles.  It's the family car and was bought for two major reasons.  It is not used very much for commutting (wife will take in a snow storm) but we have had use for the four wheel drive up at the Pocono house where the plowing can be sketchy.  Its also a pleasure to take on long trips to N New England with the DVD for those in the rear and a good stereo system.  The real reason we have it is for towing the boat.  My rig (boat and trailer ) are approx 4700 pounds.  If not for the boat I would probably drive something like the Subaru Outback.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 16, 2009)

No, never had a problems with a Corolla.


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## snoseek (Sep 16, 2009)

Philpug said:


> And 96% of statistics are made up on the spot. So...80% are SUV's and Subarus, Yes Subarus...so 79 of those vehicles could have been SUV's and 1 was a Subaru?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Sep 16, 2009)

you might as well be asking if fat skis are necessary in powder...or if you'd ski better on a shaped ski vs your old straight skis.  
For me...we've got 2 Subys in the family, a 98 outback that gets steel wheels and studded snows (mine) and a 07 tribeca with studded nokias (wifes...I get to pay for it and even drive it sometimes).  The mrs rolled her father's olds cutlass on her first solo drive at 16yrs old...hit black ice.  So when she met me 6 years later, she was still paranoid to drive in the snow...then I got her on snows, then on awd w/ studded snows...now she's gone from not leaving the house on snow days to not letting it interrupt her plans for the day.  So in my house, it counts as necessary and worthwhile.


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## gmcunni (Sep 16, 2009)

had a saab. fwd,no traction control, stick shift w/snow tires on 15 inch steel rims ( vs summer 16 inch) and nothing stopped that car.   all 4 wheels got snow tires, not just front.


its not the skis, its the skier.


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## ski220 (Sep 16, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Do you guys with the snows get them mounted on their own dedicated rim or do you swap out the rims from your regular tires?





SkiDork said:


> I got some cheap steel rims online and have the snows mounted on them ($75 each for 4).  The disadvantage if that is they're starting to rust a bit in spots so they look a little crappy, plus I lost my tire pressure sensors so the panel always says "check tire pressure" for the entire winter.  Advantage is they're easy to swap, although I do have the shop that sold the tires to me do it (for free).



$75 dollars apiece for steel rims sounds a bit high.  Besides, steel rims on anything other then a beater look crappy.  I have a few friends that have bought packages from http://www.tirerack.com/index_w.jsp .  They come mounted and balanced.  Just put air in them and you are good to go.


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## mattchuck2 (Sep 16, 2009)

I ski about 60 times a year or so, and I almost always take my two wheel drive car (currently a Scion xB).  Only about 3 or 4 times a year do we take my wife's car (a Subaru Legacy).


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## AdironRider (Sep 16, 2009)

I just traded in my Grand Cherokee for a Nissan Frontier Crew Cab and couldnt be happier. I drive Teton Pass everyday at odd hours (6am, 2pm, and 12am) and need the 4wd and ground clearance.  They dont plow between 9pm and 5am, and itll snow 8-12 inches in that time frame on regular occaisions. Got it with the 4.0 and the 6 speed and its everything I want it to be, gets 23-24 when I baby it as well. Nice


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## campgottagopee (Sep 16, 2009)

AdironRider said:


> I just traded in my Grand Cherokee for a *Nissan Frontier Crew Cab *and couldnt be happier. I drive Teton Pass everyday at odd hours (6am, 2pm, and 12am) and need the 4wd and ground clearance.  They dont plow between 9pm and 5am, and itll snow 8-12 inches in that time frame on regular occaisions. Got it with the 4.0 and the 6 speed and its everything I want it to be, gets 23-24 when I baby it as well. Nice



Sweet truck


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## bobbutts (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm running dedicated steel rims with blizzaks on an AWD Forester xt.
Definitely not necessary, but nice have a capable car.  For things like taking a left out into traffic and getting up hills it's great to have confidence.  Out in Tahoe it really is a necessity due to the steep pass roads, lack of salt, and extreme snowfall.  Back East there are very few times when you'd have to turn around with a 2wd.


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## mondeo (Sep 16, 2009)

Beauty of All Wheel Drive:


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Sep 16, 2009)

gmcunni said:


> had a saab. fwd,no traction control, stick shift w/snow tires on 15 inch steel rims ( vs summer 16 inch) and nothing stopped that car.   all 4 wheels got snow tires, not just front.
> 
> 
> its not the skis, its the skier.



I drove saabs for 8 years before my first suby...900S and 900turbo...lived in maine, tahoe, and colorado, spent a lot of time driviing in the snow...the saab doesn't hold a candle to the suby in the snow no matter what you've got for rubber on them.  

give different skis to the same skier and you get different results...its both the skis AND the skier...its not just the car, its also the rubber and the driver.


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## billski (Sep 16, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> No. Snow tires are more important than AWD or 4WD. Of course, both snows and AWD trump all... but it is completely unnecessary. Maybe one or two days an entire winter I think "that would have been a little easier with AWD in addition to snows" but I have never found myself overly inconvenienced due to the lack of AWD so I say it is not a high priority on what is important in a vehicle.



+1 I drove Steve's way for about 28 years.  Front wheel drive.  Never even had snow tires.  Now that I'm elderly, my vision is fading and I run over people, I feel just a tad more comfortable with snows and All wheel.  It's kind of my mid-life "spurge."  I still get to the same places I've always gotten to, but I it compensates for my pending geriatric state.   It makes me no braver, no more invincible than before (a good attitude to have), but frankly I can afford it, so why not?  Since I tend to keep cars at least 10 years, it may just be a passing phase     Now, I've found other activities in the other seasons that make 4WD a necessity (logging roads, abandoned forest roads, trail clearing).  Hmm.  Maybe what I need is a 4WD high-clearance sedan.  Odd, huh?  A crossover in my future?  I am a sedan man, no truck or suv for me.

I never slid off the road ever in 28 years using all seasons to go everywhere from Sugarloaf to Jay to BV (eek!).   Did decide it was time for snows when we couldn't get up the steep unplowed road to my ski buds house... So I put snows on my wife's van.  :idea:

I ALWAYS slid off the road driving rear wheel drive honky-mobiles in the late 70s in Western NY State.   We'd add a couple bags of sand and some concrete blocks and a body in the trunk.  But we were really just fooling ourselves.  The shovel, traction strips and a lot of pushing were the only things that worked.  We were too poor to call a tow truck...


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## SkiDork (Sep 16, 2009)

ski220 said:


> $75 dollars apiece for steel rims sounds a bit high.  Besides, steel rims on anything other then a beater look crappy.  I have a few friends that have bought packages from http://www.tirerack.com/index_w.jsp .  They come mounted and balanced.  Just put air in them and you are good to go.




actually I think you're right.  They may have been $37.50 each, or $75 for 2.  That sounds better.  Good catch.


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## Geoff (Sep 17, 2009)

billski said:


> +1 I drove Steve's way for about 28 years.  Front wheel drive.  Never even had snow tires.  Now that I'm elderly, my vision is fading and I run over people, I feel just a tad more comfortable with snows and All wheel.  It's kind of my mid-life "spurge."  I still get to the same places I've always gotten to, but I it compensates for my pending geriatric state.   It makes me no braver, no more invincible than before (a good attitude to have), but frankly I can afford it, so why not?  Since I tend to keep cars at least 10 years, it may just be a passing phase     Now, I've found other activities in the other seasons that make 4WD a necessity (logging roads, abandoned forest roads, trail clearing).  Hmm.  Maybe what I need is a 4WD high-clearance sedan.  Odd, huh?  A crossover in my future?  I am a sedan man, no truck or suv for me.
> 
> I never slid off the road ever in 28 years using all seasons to go everywhere from Sugarloaf to Jay to BV (eek!).   Did decide it was time for snows when we couldn't get up the steep unplowed road to my ski buds house... So I put snows on my wife's van.  :idea:
> 
> I ALWAYS slid off the road driving rear wheel drive honky-mobiles in the late 70s in Western NY State.   We'd add a couple bags of sand and some concrete blocks and a body in the trunk.  But we were really just fooling ourselves.  The shovel, traction strips and a lot of pushing were the only things that worked.  We were too poor to call a tow truck...



Modern friction snow tires give you a really substantial extra safety margin when you are braking on ice.   AWD does doodly in that condition and that's where you're most likely to be doing automobile pinball.   With reasonable winter driving skills, you can get around just fine with summer tires and a FWD car on snow-covered roads.   It's ice performance where a friction tire like a Blizzak or Nokian; or a studded tire make all the difference.

For somebody who drives to ski country every weekend, I think it's plain nuts not to have snow tires even if you have an AWD car.   It's all about having control when the cars around you are losing it.  With some intelligent shopping, you can almost always find wheels for cheap from somebody who is putting on alloys.   It prolongs the life of your summer tires so the net cost is pretty minimal.


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## Marc (Sep 17, 2009)

Kind of funny ground clearance never comes up in these discussions.


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## Glenn (Sep 17, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Sweet truck




x2. I think those are very sharp. Good choice!


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## hammer (Sep 17, 2009)

Marc said:


> Kind of funny ground clearance never comes up in these discussions.


Good point...only times I ever got really stuck in my 1990 Acura Integra was when the car got into snow that was too deep.


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## Glenn (Sep 17, 2009)

Re: Ground Clearance: 

Is it bad to quote yourself? 



Glenn said:


> A lot comes down to how the roads are cared for and how well traveled they are. In VT, we're a bit off the beaten path. So 4wheel drive and the *extra ground clearance* make a big difference when things get really snowy.


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## Marc (Sep 17, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Re: Ground Clearance:
> 
> Is it bad to quote yourself?



I will admit I *may* not have read this whole thread.  I should have been more specific, I was talking about the title of the thread.  People obsess a lot over tires and the number of drive wheels when buying a car, but I so very rarely see ground clearance brought up as a deciding factor... one way or the other.  Maybe because the camps are so polarized and entrenched regarding SUV's/trucks.


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## Philpug (Sep 17, 2009)

I could see clearance being an issue in unplowed driveways, tends not to be an issue for me. Even on the back roads from Middletown Springs to Okemo, I never had an issue w/ my 06 Leg SW.


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## HD333 (Sep 17, 2009)

4wd/AWD a neccesity, no.  But it sure helps to get things moving when your not plowed out.

Our place in NH has a real steep driveway and plowing is suspect.  For years we were Saab and snow tire fans, until one morning we got stuck going up the driveway and missed a 1/2 day of Pow.  Since then we have always has an ADW/4wd vehicle in the family.  We actually bought a jeep the week after we got stuck to compliment the 9-3.

I curently drive around in a Saab with Blizzaks in the winter and I feel extremely confident in it, no clearence through.  Wife's ride is an XC-90 and that thing is like a tank and gets us going before the plow if need be, just takes a while to stop because it is so dam heavy.


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## kcyanks1 (Sep 17, 2009)

Last season I rented a standard economy car and couldn't get over the Appalachian Gap on my way to MRG, only a little snow on the ground (wasn't expecting snow, otherwise I may have rented an SUV or something).  Now, the car did not have snow tires.  I also can't remember whether it was front or real-wheel drive.  So there were other issues than simply a lack of 4-wheel drive, but any bit probably would've helped.  Thankfully I kind stranger drove us over the last bit of the Gap.  We left the car in a little alcove, parking area off the side of the road.  Then we got a ride back at the end of the day.

I wasn't the only car having trouble, but not sure how the others were equipped.


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## mondeo (Sep 17, 2009)

Marc said:


> I will admit I *may* not have read this whole thread. I should have been more specific, I was talking about the title of the thread. People obsess a lot over tires and the number of drive wheels when buying a car, but I so very rarely see ground clearance brought up as a deciding factor... one way or the other. Maybe because the camps are so polarized and entrenched regarding SUV's/trucks.


Definately an issue, I went into a ditch once in my old (new) Cougar because there was more snow on the road than I had ground clearance. Hard to keep control when the weight of the car isn't on the wheels.

But the trade for ground clearance is a lot steeper than AWD or snows. Call it a couple grand for AWD and a grand for snows, but you also get the benefit of superior handling characteristics (relative to FWD) and the ability to go with summer tires as well; the only downside is cost (up front, gas mileage and maintenance for AWD.) Ground clearance at least means sacrificing handling due to the higher Cg that automatically goes along with it, plus the fact that ground clearance changes largely along the type of car one buys.


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## Glenn (Sep 17, 2009)

Marc said:


> I will admit I *may* not have read this whole thread.  I should have been more specific, I was talking about the title of the thread.  People obsess a lot over tires and the number of drive wheels when buying a car, but I so very rarely see ground clearance brought up as a deciding factor... one way or the other.  Maybe because the camps are so polarized and entrenched regarding SUV's/trucks.



Under carraige protection is a good thing to have as well. My Jeep has a fairly beefy OEM t-case skid on it. I'll attest to the beefiness after hitting my head on it last weekend whilst performing  a fluid and filter change on the ol' slushbox. "Oowww! Fawk! Am I bleeding?" It's ain't a project without swears and blood. I later cut my finger while changing the sparkplugs...covered all the bases. Oh, and I got coolant in my hair. Whee!


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## bigbog (Sep 17, 2009)

...on MY vehicle...have to say Yes.  I do a lot of off-road with need for clearance as well.  Here 4WD helps a lot when in somewhat-deep muck and where culverts get washed out quite often in the Springtime...but it's not a dire necessity on pavement...as others have undoubtedly pointed out..  Main issue is getting aggressive tread underneath weight of vehicles small and big...but the front axle doing the pulling helps a lot.  Amazing how people, when inside an SUV, think that the laws of physics change...


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## Geoff (Sep 19, 2009)

Marc said:


> Kind of funny ground clearance never comes up in these discussions.



New England doesn't get enough snow for ground clearance to be an issue for most people.   They drive on major plowed roads on their trip up from the flatlands.   Ski towns understand snow removal.  It's really more about getting in and out of your parking spot in north country.   If your plowing sucks, 4wd and ground clearance are preferable to a half hour with a snow shovel on a powder day.

Ground clearance matters during mud month way more than midwinter.   There are years where I wouldn't want to do my condo driveway without 4wd, some ground clearance, and a skid plate.   There are certainly days where the ski area parking lot is a mud bog.


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## catsup948 (Sep 19, 2009)

For many years I drove my 1996 Corolla to the mountains. With all season tires I only got stuck a few times. Careful driving and the stick shift helped keep me out of trouble. 

I currently drive a 2003 Outback. Got rid of the stock tires and put on some decent all seasons car is a total beast in the snow and ice. Makes trips to the mountains in storms easier and less scary for sure.


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## Geoff (Sep 20, 2009)

catsup948 said:


> For many years I drove my 1996 Corolla to the mountains. With all season tires I only got stuck a few times. Careful driving and the stick shift helped keep me out of trouble.
> 
> I currently drive a 2003 Outback. Got rid of the stock tires and put on some decent all seasons car is a total beast in the snow and ice. Makes trips to the mountains in storms easier and less scary for sure.



The recurring theme here is that FWD with stock tires works OK most of the time if you have good snow driving skills.   In college back in the 2nd half of the 1970's, I was in Burlington, VT with a RWD Ford Maverick that had Sears Guardsman summer radials.  I had no problem getting around though I had to do some creative driving from time to time coming up the hill from the bars when I hit a stop light.   Hill starts were out of the question.   The car had 3-on-the-tree.   If you went fast uphill and crawled going down hills using the engine and transmission to control your speed, you had plenty of control.   

The only time I ever got stuck in the car was screwing around in the Smuggs parking lot as they were digging it out with a bucket loader.   I was following a path cleared by the bucket loader that ended.   I tried to power up & over the snowbank to the parallel clear lane and got lodged in the snow.  The bucket loader driver just drove up to the tail of my car and pushed me out with the bucket.   A real touron move.

I also had a 1981 turbo Mustang with performance tires.  I used to have to put it in 2nd gear, get out, and push it to get it rolling on flat parking lot.   It was basically the same platform as the Maverick but with a little more horsepower.   In comparison, a VW GTI with Blizzak WS-60's or Nokian Hakkas is a real snow machine.


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## SkiDork (Sep 21, 2009)

Maverick!


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## Philpug (Sep 21, 2009)

Maverick!


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## billski (Sep 21, 2009)

bigbog said:


> Amazing how people, when inside an SUV, think that the laws of physics change...



That's because the higher off the ground you are, the further you are from reality!   :dunce:


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## mondeo (Sep 21, 2009)

Maverick!






Maverick!


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## Philpug (Sep 21, 2009)

billski said:


> That's because the higher off the ground you are, the further you are from reality!   :dunce:



It' that thin air.


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## billski (Sep 21, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> Maverick!



Drove my parent's Maverik in college, till some dope coming at me tried to stop on ice and totaled my wheels.   Never saw a Maverick with no rust.  My door panels doubled as wings!


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## billski (Sep 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Kind of funny ground clearance never comes up in these discussions.



It is indicative of the nature of the driving done by the folks on this forum.  After all, this isn't monster truck forum!   :-?

Lift-served ski resorts, which most of us frequent do a damn good job of making sure their lots and their town are well taken care of, after all it is their winter livelihood.  So too do the hotels and motels. Now for flatlanders like us who have day jobs, live close to highways and live in the burbs, the towns are fairly well plowed out, and we don't live on the 20-acre lot with a quarter-mile-long driveway.  It also doesn't seem that there is a lot of off-roading done here, regardless the season.

As far as highway snow plowing goes, I've seen a lot of changes since the 60s.  People demand more these days and the crews are out all night long.  That wasn't always the case.  

I'm not as hip on driving in storms as I once was.  I'm getting older and would rather save that energy for the slopes.  I'm finding myself getting up there before the storm hits, to get as many hours on the slope as possible.  By day's end, everything is pretty clear, even if it's still snowing.   

I also have a flexible enough schedule that I can time my travel depending on the snow and the inevitable flatlander panic that sets in when they all realize at once they need milk and bread 

From my perspective, anything is better than rear wheel drive, even with snows.   It's all relative: we used to drive the old Galaxy 500 through the unplowed snow with zero clearance, often acting as our own snowplow.  Sounds fun, but it was not.

Lastly, the winter storms are not near as frequent, large or as troublesome as they once were.  At least compared to where I used to live.  Nothing is more dreadful than lake effect snow with sustained winds.  Warp, care to comment?


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## mondeo (Sep 21, 2009)

billski said:


> Lastly, the winter storms are not near as frequent, large or as troublesome as they once were. At least compared to where I used to live. Nothing is more dreadful than lake effect snow with sustained winds. Warp, care to comment?


WNY has much bigger storms than Canton/Potsdam. That part of St. Lawrence County is far enough away from Lake Ontario that you don't get the lake effect. Well, at least Potsdam was, Canton's 11 miles closer so it may be different there. Some of the worst snow I've driven in was between Syracuse and Watertown, maybe 50 feet of visiblity, crawling along I-81 at 20mph trusting the guy in front of you not to go off the road. Cleared up before I got to the next exit, only time I really thought about pulling over to let a storm pass.

It's just freakin' cold up there.


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## billski (Sep 21, 2009)

mondeo said:


> WNY has much bigger storms than Canton/Potsdam. That part of St. Lawrence County is far enough away from Lake Ontario that you don't get the lake effect. Well, at least Potsdam was, Canton's 11 miles closer so it may be different there. Some of the worst snow I've driven in was between Syracuse and Watertown, maybe 50 feet of visiblity, crawling along I-81 at 20mph trusting the guy in front of you not to go off the road. Cleared up before I got to the next exit, only time I really thought about pulling over to let a storm pass.
> 
> It's just freakin' cold up there.


I lived in NNY from 1955 to 65, then in WNY from 65 to 79.  
NNY was simply cold with lots of snow.
WNY, especially if you were within 10 miles of Lakes Erie or Ontario was less cold, but it was gray from Sept. to May, and it would incessantly snow nearly every day.  It is the wind, as mondeo says that is the really killer.  "Whiteouts" are the scariest thing going.  I'd much rather drive on 12" of new-fallen than on wind that whips, gusts and creates concrete drifts in the road that can become impassible.  The county roads have no side markers, it is easy to go off into the ditch - I did it a lot.  It wasn't like a plunge or anything, your vehicle would just get slower and slower and finally stall out.  It was only when you got out and walked around that you could see where you were.  I really disliked living there.

They have to bring in front end loaders to clear the drifts - the bladed plows don't cut it if they get behind.  Still does, my sisters and other relatives live there and I get out there now and then but hear the stories on the phone all the time.

The temps in New England are not much different than in WNY.  The difference is that the sun comes out in the winter in New England.


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## billski (Sep 21, 2009)

mondeo said:


> WNY has much bigger storms than Canton/Potsdam. That part of St. Lawrence County is far enough away from Lake Ontario that you don't get the lake effect. Well, at least Potsdam was, Canton's 11 miles closer so it may be different there. Some of the worst snow I've driven in was between Syracuse and Watertown, maybe 50 feet of visiblity, crawling along I-81 at 20mph trusting the guy in front of you not to go off the road. Cleared up before I got to the next exit, only time I really thought about pulling over to let a storm pass.
> 
> It's just freakin' cold up there.


I lived in NNY from 1955 to 65, then in WNY from 65 to 79.  
NNY was simply cold with lots of snow.
WNY, especially if you were within 10 miles of Lakes Erie or Ontario was less cold, but it was gray from Sept. to May, and it would incessantly snow nearly every day.  It is the wind, as mondeo says that is the really killer.  "Whiteouts" are the scariest thing going.  I'd much rather drive on 12" of new-fallen than on wind that whips, gusts and creates concrete drifts in the road that can become impassible.  The county roads have no side markers, it is easy to go off into the ditch - I did it a lot.  It wasn't like a plunge or anything, your vehicle would just get slower and slower and finally stall out.  It was only when you got out and walked around that you could see where you were.  I really disliked living there.

They have to bring in front end loaders to clear the drifts - the bladed plows don't cut it if they get behind.  Still does, my sisters and other relatives live there and I get out there now and then but hear the stories on the phone all the time.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd take a FWD with snows over a AWD with stock tires any day of the week....keep in mind that most AWD are really FWD cars that will send some power to the rear slipping wheel if needed....the only true AWD are Audi and Subi (my volvo xc70 is pseudo awd)

A buddy of mine lives in the mtns of Austria, drives a RWD BMW with snows and stick shift...swears by it, says he has more control with the stick (power) ...... IMOP, AWD and 4x4  is marketing, hype and fear branded into us by the advertizers...


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## SKIQUATTRO (Sep 21, 2009)

tires are the key...would you run a marathon in flip flops?


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## mondeo (Sep 21, 2009)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> tires are the key...would you run a marathon in flip flops?


I had a dream Saturday night where I skied a zipper line in flip flops.

No skis, just flip flops. Had poles, though.


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## bobbutts (Sep 21, 2009)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> I'd take a FWD with snows over a AWD with stock tires any day of the week....keep in mind that most AWD are really FWD cars that will send some power to the rear slipping wheel if needed....the only true AWD are Audi and Subi (my volvo xc70 is pseudo awd)
> 
> A buddy of mine lives in the mtns of Austria, drives a RWD BMW with snows and stick shift...swears by it, says he has more control with the stick (power) ...... IMOP, AWD and 4x4  is marketing, hype and fear branded into us by the advertizers...


IMO your opinion is way off..  AWD is vastly superior to 2wd for snow driving (given equal vehicles and tires) in the real world, not just marketing. Forget about everything else and compare acceleration, it's no contest.  Then think about situations where being able to accelerate would be helpful. 
If you're willing to have the extra weight and cost of an AWD vehicle it will perform better in the snow vs. 2wd every time.


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## mondeo (Sep 21, 2009)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> I'd take a FWD with snows over a AWD with stock tires any day of the week....keep in mind that most AWD are really FWD cars that will send some power to the rear slipping wheel if needed....the only true AWD are Audi and Subi (my volvo xc70 is pseudo awd)


"True" AWD is marketing BS from Audi and Subaru. If 4 wheels are driven, it's AWD. Mechanicals may be different, but even within a brand the implementation changes between models:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive#4WD_and_AWD_systems_by_design_type

Even under Camp's definition of true AWD, notice how few are under the no locking center diff category. If you say clutches aren't real AWD, then most Subies don't fit the mold either. But the reality is that any AWD gives you about the same benefit; sensor driven AWD is quick enough that you'll never notice the difference. Even with slip and grip, the only downside is that you lose some of the power to braking, but if you're slipping you don't need that much power anyways.


bobbutts said:


> IMO your opinion is way off.. AWD is vastly superior to 2wd for snow driving (given equal vehicles and tires) in the real world, not just marketing. Forget about everything else and compare acceleration, it's no contest. Then think about situations where being able to accelerate would be helpful.
> If you're willing to have the extra weight and cost of an AWD vehicle it will perform better in the snow vs. 2wd every time.


AWD vs FWD, yeah I'll take AWD. But that wasn't his point. AWD with all-seasons < FWD with snows. Of course AWD with snows takes the cake, especially with limited slip diffs.


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## SkiDork (Sep 21, 2009)

its a limited slip differential...


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## AdironRider (Sep 22, 2009)

I went to SLU in Canton, graduated in 07. Were just above the lake effect snows really. Drive 10 miles down to Colton to the old Snow Bowl and its a different story. It is bitterly cold and grey all winter long. I always kinda liked it though. 

That being said, Ill take 4wd any day of the week. My girlfriend has a Subaru Forester and Ive had to dig that thing out more than Id like to remember after a foot overnight. With my truck Ive never once had a problem, and this is with the snow we get in Jackson. Even with decent ground clearance, the Subaru still gets stuck in snowbanks and unplowed parking lots. My 4x4 just blasts right on through. Sure the tires play a role as well, but anyone who has sat at a stop on a steep hill, with 2wd in the snow can attest, they wished they had 4wd or AWD. 

I think that once the car is in motion, AWD is probably better, especially given todays technology, but I like the advantages 4wd provides when the going gets tough. I need that capability, use it all the time in the winter.


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## Glenn (Sep 22, 2009)

AdironRider said:


> I went to SLU in Canton, graduated in 07. Were just above the lake effect snows really. Drive 10 miles down to Colton to the old Snow Bowl and its a different story. It is bitterly cold and grey all winter long. I always kinda liked it though.
> 
> That being said, Ill take 4wd any day of the week. My girlfriend has a Subaru Forester and Ive had to dig that thing out more than Id like to remember after a foot overnight. With my truck Ive never once had a problem, and this is with the snow we get in Jackson. Even with decent ground clearance, the Subaru still gets stuck in snowbanks and unplowed parking lots. My 4x4 just blasts right on through. Sure the tires play a role as well, but anyone who has sat at a stop on a steep hill, with 2wd in the snow can attest, they wished they had 4wd or AWD.
> 
> I think that once the car is in motion, AWD is probably better, especially given todays technology, but I like the advantages 4wd provides when the going gets tough. I need that capability, use it all the time in the winter.



Ground clearance FTW! 8)


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 25, 2011)

may not be 100% necessary, but if it increases saftey, then i'm all for it...

Ski Vechicle:  08 Suburban with dedicated rims and snows (i keep in auto mode, not 2wd)
Audi A4 Quattro:  very good all seasons (Conti Xtreme Contacts) never an issue.


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

A little education never hurt.  :roll:


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2012)

It didn't help the Range Rover I saw on its roof yesterday but that was black ice.


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

uphillklimber said:


> . What is the parking lot and access like at your mountain?


Three places come to mind

FWD to Bolton is interesting

Sherburne to Mid Burke uphill in FWD is also interesting

1/4 mile on 50% grade to my bud's house on snowpack.  FWD impossible.  AWD with all seasons (eek!) and 4WD is OK.  Not all my vehicles.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2012)

uphillklimber said:


> 4WD or AWD is really good for getting started at the icy intersections, or more traction when accelerating. Braking is the same on all vehicles, although downshifting  has to be an improvement on 4WD. Traveling on the highway, I turn off the 4 WD, even in snow storms. Where I find it helps best is at places like the Barker Lodge at the River. It's a steady uphill grade, and as you near the parking lot, people slow down to take their parking spaces and avoid people. That is when 4WD is real nice. What is the parking lot and access like at your mountain?



With my pickup I keep it in 4wd on the highway because if I need to accelerate and it isn't in 4WD the backend can be loose.


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## hammer (Jan 3, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> With my pickup I keep it in 4wd on the highway because if I need to accelerate and it isn't in 4WD the backend can be loose.


On dry pavement?  Doesn't using full time 4WD in that case mess up your tires?


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2012)

hammer said:


> On dry pavement?  Doesn't using full time 4WD in that case mess up your tires?



In snow


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## kingslug (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes. Jeep Cherokee with AT tires means I NEVER get stuck..pulled out of an unplowed hotel parking lot with 4 feet of snow covering it at Hunter during there storm of the century..everyone else was pretty much buried..the tires do make 50% of the difference. My girlfriends AWD toyota couldn't make it up the hill, all season tires where to blame, this was with just a little snow on it..The Forrester inn at Hunter has a nasty hill to get to it..


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## Boardguy (Jan 3, 2012)

I have a four hour plus one way commute to my ski spot. I make the trip pretty much every weekend from Christmas thru the end of March. In the 14 seasons we gone up there I have used three different SUVs. Two Suburbans, the first did not have AWD and was OK in FWD if needed. The next was a newer Suburban that had both AWD and straight FWD. I liked the AWD and that was the first vehicle that I have owned with AWD. I presently have a Jeep grand cherokee with AWD and that is the best highway commuter yet for me. We leave around 6:30 on Friday nights and head north. I like the idea of AWD and as I said the Jeep has been very nice. While I enjoyed the suburbans I like the handling of the Jeep better, the smaller size may be part of that. The downside is a two wheel drive or two wheel drive with selectable FWD would get better mileage but I like the security of the AWD and as long as I can afford it I'll stick with it. Not necessary but I find it very nice to have.


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## Geoff (Jan 3, 2012)

billski said:


> Drove my parent's Maverik in college, till some dope coming at me tried to stop on ice and totaled my wheels.   Never saw a Maverick with no rust.  My door panels doubled as wings!



Time to hijack the thread...

I got really good with a rivet gun and a ball peen hammer.  In my 1972 Maverick, the drivers floor was a stolen Quaker State motor oil sign.   The trunk was a Thickly Settled sign.   I used tin ducting for most of my other repairs.   Both rear wheel wells, the bottom of both doors, and the front quarter panels were all patched with that.   Some tiger hair, some Bondo, primer, and off to the local paint shop for the $200.00 spray with the original diarrhea brown paint.

Vermont had a "no rust hole larger than a dime" inspection policy.   I had a summer bodywork project every year I owned the car.


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## thinnmann (Jan 3, 2012)

*Yea - It Is The Tires.*

These are awesome: http://www.carreview.com/cat/parts/tires/hankook/winter-ipike-w409-tire/prd_369924_1577crx.aspx

Will get you through anything.  Four on my 2010 Mazda3 (skis inside the hatch for better gas mileage) got me all over NYS and NH with my racing daughter last winter with nary a slip.  Regularly passed AWD vehicles while driving in a snow covered left lane while they were struggling in a plowed lane.

In snow, I trusted the Mazda3 last winter more than my AWD 2005 Honda Pilot with the stock M+S Goodyear Integrity tires that had a large bit of mileage on them.  But I just put four Cooper Discoverer CTS's on it' and like everyone else, am waiting for the snow to see how they go.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 3, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> These are awesome: http://www.carreview.com/cat/parts/tires/hankook/winter-ipike-w409-tire/prd_369924_1577crx.aspx
> 
> Will get you through anything.  Four on my 2010 Mazda3 (skis inside the hatch for better gas mileage) got me all over NYS and NH with my racing daughter last winter with nary a slip.  Regularly passed AWD vehicles while driving in a snow covered left lane while they were struggling in a plowed lane.
> 
> In snow, I trusted the Mazda3 last winter more than my AWD 2005 Honda Pilot with the stock M+S Goodyear Integrity tires that had a large bit of mileage on them.  But I just put four Cooper Discoverer CTS's on it' and like everyone else, am waiting for the snow to see how they go.



Just because one owns a AWD vehicle doesn't mean they are just going to go a buck twenty.  Many people realize that with or without AWD you must still drive like a responsible adult.  Your just as likely to see a 4WD or AWD car off the road on I89, I93, I91 as you are a FWD car....the drive of a car doesn't cure stupid or bad luck.  Also for example, if you are driving on a plowed section of a road most likely your AWD isn't kicking on so the person drving the FWD and AWD are doing the exact same thing........driving with two wheels doing all the work.  Our AWD very rarely comes on even in the snow.  I find it most helpful when driving to Killington and going up to Bear in the slick conditions or heading up to Pico through Sherburne Pass.  Other then that my FWD Toyota Matrix with studded snow tires gets it done.


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## Riverskier (Jan 4, 2012)

Never owned AWD or 4WD, and never had snow tires until this Winter. Finally pulled the trigger on the tires and holy crap! I will never go back to all seasons. The traction I have gotten on ice and a foot of unplowed snow is just amazing. I am sure AWD or 4WD with snows is much better, but right now I feel like I am driving a tank, and for my purposes anything more is unnecessary.


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## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Never owned AWD or 4WD, and never had snow tires until this Winter. Finally pulled the trigger on the tires and holy crap! I will never go back to all seasons. The traction I have gotten on ice and a foot of unplowed snow is just amazing. I am sure AWD or 4WD with snows is much better, but right now I feel like I am driving a tank, and for my purposes anything more is unnecessary.



So it is your fault we don't have any snow?


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## Riverskier (Jan 4, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> So it is your fault we don't have any snow?



My friend also got a seasonal rental at Sugarloaf for the first time ever, so between the two of us I would say you are right on.


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## BigJay (Jan 4, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> These are awesome: http://www.carreview.com/cat/parts/tires/hankook/winter-ipike-w409-tire/prd_369924_1577crx.aspx
> 
> Will get you through anything.  Four on my 2010 Mazda3 (skis inside the hatch for better gas mileage) got me all over NYS and NH with my racing daughter last winter with nary a slip.  Regularly passed AWD vehicles while driving in a snow covered left lane while they were struggling in a plowed lane.
> 
> In snow, I trusted the Mazda3 last winter more than my AWD 2005 Honda Pilot with the stock M+S Goodyear Integrity tires that had a large bit of mileage on them.  But I just put four Cooper Discoverer CTS's on it' and like everyone else, am waiting for the snow to see how they go.



That's because the Mazda3 is a great car for winter use!

I've had 2 Mazda3 and loved them... but wanted an AWD. Now that we have a Suby, i don't drive any faster on the highway, i don't drive any faster during winter storms... but i can manage going much slower on long climbs!

(And yeah, winter tires are a must when you need to drive in snow... and when you go skiing, you need snow... so... 1+1... Last week, you could tell those who come from the south... going 20mph on 242... barely making it up the pass... going down and almost not making the turns without slidding around...and we don't even have a real winter this year...)


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## Cornhead (Jan 4, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Never owned AWD or 4WD, and never had snow tires until this Winter. Finally pulled the trigger on the tires and holy crap! I will never go back to all seasons. The traction I have gotten on ice and a foot of unplowed snow is just amazing. I am sure AWD or 4WD with snows is much better, but right now I feel like I am driving a tank, and for my purposes anything more is unnecessary.



I prefer to call them "No Season Radials", they suck at everything. Today's snows are so quiet, I don't mind slapping them on at all. I have low profile performance Summer tires, so the snows are much better at handling the shitty roads your likely to encounter in the ski season, snow covered, or not. It was weird buying a new car and having to buy a set of tires and rims for it, it came with Summer tires. It was either that, or switch to No Seasons. AWD with no seasons is probably adequate. I have AWD with Blizzaks, ground clearance is my only issue.   It is fun to drive in the snow. FWD+ snows= all that's needed. Now if it would only friggin snow!


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 4, 2012)

This is a major generalization and depends on models to an extent, but generally speaking:

4WD with Snow tires > 4WD with All-Seasons > 2WD with Snow tires > 2WD with All-Seasons

And generally speaking the people who say 2WD with snow tires is better than a 4WD with all-seasons are people that either dont own a 4WD, or havent yet gotten "stuck" in a 2WD with snow tires in a situation where drive power and not traction is the culprit.


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## HowieT2 (Jan 4, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is a major generalization and depends on models to an extent, but generally speaking:
> 
> 4WD with Snow tires > 4WD with All-Seasons > 2WD with Snow tires > 2WD with All-Seasons
> 
> And generally speaking the people who say 2WD with snow tires is better than a 4WD with all-seasons are people that either dont own a 4WD, or havent yet gotten "stuck" in a 2WD with snow tires in a situation where drive power and not traction is the culprit.



I was just having this debate with some non skier friends (I know I shouldnt have any of those).  but there is more to driving in snow/ice than getting stuck.  clearly awd/4wd is most important in getting the vehicle moving from a stop.  having snow tires on a 2wd vehicle still only gives you 2 drive wheels and if those wheels arent getting traction, you're not going anywhere.  but when the vehicle is moving, which is most of the time,  traction is most important to keeping the vehicle under control, and snow tires greatly improve traction over all seasons. I'd rather get stuck than lose control at speed or be unable to stop upon braking.

and fwiw-I think most non skier suburbanites would be better off with snow tires than awd for their limited snow/ice driving.  cheaper and better fuel economy.  could you imagine all the gas we would save if these people switched from awd to snow tires in the winter.  good for the economy and the environment.


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## billski (Jan 4, 2012)

As I see it, there are two applications for snow tires.

First, for the rare instances where we have the privilege of driving (or getting stuck) in loose snow.  The tread and narrower tire the name of the game.

Second, for slippery conditions: ice, super-hard pack/turning to ice, which unfortunately is the majority of the road-bound cases.  The softer rubber is the name of the game.

I notice in this thread a disconnect between what people are debating.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 4, 2012)

Keeping your vehicle on the road and out of the ditch has more to do with the driving than if you have 4WD or AWD IMHO.


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## AdironRider (Jan 4, 2012)

Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong. 

Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 4, 2012)

Well my little tercel i had a 97 and drove through many snow storms in 2000 season never had a problem, but my 96 accord hates the snow, both are front wheel drive only


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## legalskier (Jan 5, 2012)

I have a Forester- it's gotten me out of some difficult situations.  
Downside is the gas mileage isn't quite as good as 2wd. Overall, very happy with it.


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## Cannonball (Jan 5, 2012)

simple answer: yes.

I've always only ever owned pickups.  In 1993 I bought my first 2wd for the gas mileage.  I got stuck that winter....I sold it.  It was 4WD before that and It's been 4WD since.  Never understood why they don't make FWD trucks.  I'd consider one.

But my truck(s) are only sort-of a ski vehicle since I usually take my wife's ride.  Which have always been AWD (subaru, CRV, etc).  She won't consider non-AWD and I agree.

We're having a hard time figuring out a new vehicle for her.  The CRV is at 120K so we're starting to look around at new rides.  Love the CRV but can't stand the new body style.  Does Honda HATE dogs???  Forester seems like the only thing that comes close to our criteria: AWD, dog space, gear space, mileage (for AWD), reliability, cost.  Maybe that's a subject for a different thread.


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> We're having a hard time figuring out a new vehicle for her.  The CRV is at 120K so we're starting to look around at new rides.  Love the CRV but can't stand the new body style.  Does Honda HATE dogs???  Forester seems like the only thing that comes close to our criteria: AWD, dog space, gear space, mileage (for AWD), reliability, cost.  Maybe that's a subject for a different thread.


New Impreza gets 36 highway but not as much space as the Forester. I started a thread on the new Impreza a while back because it seemed exciting that an AWD vehicle was finally going to have respectable MPG. Ultimately, I stayed with FWD and snows with my SportWagen TDI. Never have had a problem with FWD and snows.


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## Cannonball (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> New Impreza gets 36 highway but not as much space as the Forester. I started a thread on the new Impreza a while back because it seemed exciting that an AWD vehicle was finally going to have respectable MPG. Ultimately, I stayed with FWD and snows with my SportWagen TDI. Never have had a problem with FWD and snows.



Yup.  I've followed that Impreza thread.  Everything you listed in terms of frustration with fuel economy in this class is exactly what we struggle with.  The Impreza is just a bit too small for us (it's close).  The SportWagen TDI has been on the table.  Haven't quite sold her on it.


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## bvibert (Jan 5, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I was just having this debate with some non skier friends (I know I shouldnt have any of those).  but there is more to driving in snow/ice than getting stuck.  clearly awd/4wd is most important in getting the vehicle moving from a stop.  having snow tires on a 2wd vehicle still only gives you 2 drive wheels and if those wheels arent getting traction, you're not going anywhere.  but when the vehicle is moving, which is most of the time,  traction is most important to keeping the vehicle under control, and snow tires greatly improve traction over all seasons. I'd rather get stuck than lose control at speed or be unable to stop upon braking.
> 
> and fwiw-I think most non skier suburbanites would be better off with snow tires than awd for their limited snow/ice driving.  cheaper and better fuel economy.  could you imagine all the gas we would save if these people switched from awd to snow tires in the winter.  good for the economy and the environment.



This is completely right.  4WD/AWD may keep you from getting stuck, but once you're moving traction is the key.



AdironRider said:


> Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.
> 
> Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.



The driver is the most important component without a doubt, which is most of the problem.  People don't know how to drive in normal conditions let alone snow.  That said, you're flat out wrong if you think that a 4WD with all season tires is better than a FWD with snows in 90% of the winter weather driving situations.  Snow tires offer much better traction than all seasons in snow.  Period.


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## SkiDork (Jan 5, 2012)

bvibert said:


> That said, you're flat out wrong if you think that a 4WD with all season tires is better than a FWD with snows in 90% of the winter weather driving situations.  Snow tires offer much better traction than all seasons in snow.  Period.



I'd love to see a mythbusters do this comparison, as I tend to disagree.  Also, weight is a huge consideration.  When I used to run all seasons on the Suburban, I never really had much trouble in snow.  Now I have 4 snows on there which helps a bit more but I think the weight is a bigger factor


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## bvibert (Jan 5, 2012)

Certainly weight plays a factor, but not all 4WD/AWD vehicles are heavy.


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## hammer (Jan 5, 2012)

The great debate going on in our household is not whether it would be better to get winter tires (it would be), but whether AWD with decent all-seasons is _good enough_ for most situations.  I was about ready to pull the trigger but the whole hassle with the TPMS sensors drives the cost up or requires twice-annual remounts, which I still have concerns about doing from a tire and wheel condition standpoint.

I hate analysis paralysis...


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## AndyEich (Jan 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.
> 
> Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.



This comment is incorrect.  4WD is better to get you going--no doubt, but snow tires are way more beneficial for stopping and keeping you on the road.

If you need to get up an un-plowed driveway, I'd take 4WD.  But most people should be more concerned about staying safe at speed, in slippery conditions.  For that, snow tires win every time.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 5, 2012)

I have a 2010 Suburu Outback w/all seasons and have never thought once about putting snowtires on it.  The thing bombs through deep snow, runs great on icy conditions, has great start/stop and has really good clearance.  When we first got it the first thing I noticed was how high it sits.  Park next to nearly any mid size SUV and full size SUV and it sits just as high (or seems too).  On top of that we get between 28 and 34 MPG depending on travel route.  We actually looked at a 2wd Matrix before getting the Suburu, but the price wasn't much different and gas mileage wasn't enough to lean us the other way.  Also, not sure why, but the storage space in the newer matrix have limited space.  I am guessing they added more rear seat leg room or just shortened the car.  All of that, Toyota seems to be sucking in the reliablity department, lots of problems and over priced IMHO.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I have a 2010 Suburu Outback w/all seasons and have never thought once about putting snowtires on it.



We have a 2007 Outback that we drive to VT most every weekend in the winter and see a dramattic difference between all seasons and snow tires.  Snow tires go on in early December and stay on through mud season in the spring.


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## x10003q (Jan 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.



Exactly

I have owned or rented a house in ski country (Mt Snow, Stratton area, Gore, Killington) for 30 years. I had a Dodge 4x4 pickup until 1989 when I swiched to Audi. I have only used all season tires since then. I have never been stuck. There have been about 5 times when I would have liked to have snow tires on the Audi in the last 22 years. Driver judgement is the most important factor in the snows vs awd debate. If I lived farther north I would consider snow tires. Snow tires are better, but I found that 99% of the time (for me) they are not needed. There have been a few times that I did not venture out into storms because I did not have snows, but my having snows does not help when other drivers have problems.


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Snow tires are better, but I found that 99% of the time (for me) they are not needed. There have been a few times that I did not venture out into storms because I did not have snows, but my having snows does not help when other drivers have problems.



I read an article once that said that in the life of a tire, it has to rely on its most sophisticated highly engineered qualities for only a few minutes or less.  However, in those few minutes, or even in the few seconds when that performance was called upon, they might save your life.  So I am happy that they are not needed 99% of the time.  But in that remaining 1% when they keep the car on the road, make the stop in time, or get me where I am going, then they are worth it.

Also consider that snow tires don't only increase safety for you, the driver, and your passengers; they also increase the safety of every vehicle occupant on the same road you are traveling on, as well as the property surrounding your travel route.


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> We have a 2007 Outback that we drive to VT most every weekend in the winter and see a dramattic difference between all seasons and snow tires.  Snow tires go on in early December and stay on through mud season in the spring.



On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference.  And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them.  The reason is the way the tires behave.  They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow.  This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow.  An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking.  Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 5, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference.  And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them.  The reason is the way the tires behave.  They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow.  This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow.  An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking.  Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.



Well I have a FWD vehicle with studed snow tires and a AWD with all seasons, AWD with all seasons out performs FWD with studded snow tires.  Not to say the FWD isn't more than capable in most conditions.


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## bobbutts (Jan 5, 2012)

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow?  Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow?  Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?



I think in moving situations, FWD traction control works to improve handling.  But when a car gets stuck with wheels spinning it is best to turn traction control off so both drive wheels get the power.

ABS no lockups of rear wheels = definitely prevents tragedy.


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## AdironRider (Jan 5, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference.  And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them.  The reason is the way the tires behave.  They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow.  This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow.  An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking.  Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.



Wrong, but if you want to justify upwards of a grand for that nice smug feeling, then so be it. FWD with snows does not trump AWD with anything. 

Again, its the driver, not some tire that you spent to much money on for a warm feeling inside.


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## Geoff (Jan 5, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow?  Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?



My car starting procedure for winter in my Vermont driveway:
1- Start the car
2- Disable the traction control
3- Put it in gear and back out of my parking spot

I don't like ABS in deep snow, either.   It increases stopping distance.   I don't care if I have more control when I'm rolling through a high traffic intersection at the bottom of a steep hill because the ABS has kicked in.   I wish I had a switch to disable ABS, too.   I wouldn't use it often but there are times when it's very useful.


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## Geoff (Jan 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.
> 
> Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.



On black ice?   Most definitely.   ...but not just "snows".   It needs to be a modern friction tire like a Blizzak or Nokian.

I don't care how good a driver you are.   If you're in traffic and encounter black ice, the cars around you are going to be doing guardrail pinball and you won't be able to avoid them with AWD and stock tires.


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## bobbutts (Jan 5, 2012)

One hole in the fwd + snows argument is that in a skid situation, the awd car is a superior tool to regain control.  All bets are off if the driver uses only brake, but often power application can control the skid (think drifting).  Bottom line is AWD vs. FWD + Snows is subjective and varies based on equipment and driver way too much to reach any conclusion on in this thread.
We all know that within any class of vehicle snow tires will help, studs will help more, and we also all know that awd/4wd is superior to 2wd.
:smash:


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> Yup.  I've followed that Impreza thread.  Everything you listed in terms of frustration with fuel economy in this class is exactly what we struggle with.  The Impreza is just a bit too small for us (it's close).  The SportWagen TDI has been on the table.  Haven't quite sold her on it.


Its a great car for dogs and outdoors. Fold flat rear seat, tons of room, rails if you want a box up top for even more room, etc. Nice creature comforts as well, not luxury but a step up from most economy cars for sure. I'm averaging about 40mpg combined total. My best tank was just under 44mpg. You pay a little more at the pump and up front but the fuel savings eventually pays dividends, especially if you're a light foot. If the misses enjoys driving, a test drive will sell her. I have a hard time being a light foot even though I bought it partially for the fuel efficiency. No AWD diesel yet, though.


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## AdironRider (Jan 5, 2012)

Geoff said:


> On black ice?   Most definitely.   ...but not just "snows".   It needs to be a modern friction tire like a Blizzak or Nokian.
> 
> I don't care how good a driver you are.   If you're in traffic and encounter black ice, the cars around you are going to be doing guardrail pinball and you won't be able to avoid them with AWD and stock tires.



Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever. 

As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow. 

A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

hammer said:


> The great debate going on in our household is not whether it would be better to get winter tires (it would be), but whether AWD with decent all-seasons is _good enough_ for most situations.  I was about ready to pull the trigger but the whole hassle with the TPMS sensors drives the cost up or requires twice-annual remounts, which I still have concerns about doing from a tire and wheel condition standpoint.
> 
> I hate analysis paralysis...


If your driving into ski country a lot... snow tires should be a given whether you have AWD or FWD. FWD with snows or AWD without snows is an asinine question for anyone driving in snow a lot. AWD or FWD is the question and snows regardless. 

AWD without snows is a great option for metro and suburban commuters who rarely drive in snow and for which snow tires would be mostly overkill with performance and fuel efficiency penalties too outstanding for the few uses the snow tires would get. AWD is enough extra to help on those few big storms that interfere with the commute.


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## Edd (Jan 5, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow?  Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?



My 2002 Legacy w/all seasons had no traction control.  I drove in alot of snow and it was competent but I feel like I'm pretty cautious during storms.

My 2010 Forester w/all seasons does have traction control.  The first storm I was in I noticed a significant difference in the snow handling; much improved.  At the time I attributed this to traction control but I should note the general handling characteristics of these cars is different all around.

There is one place that bothers me driving during storms and that's Crawford Notch heading from Bretton Woods to Bartlett.  I've always managed to maintain control but sometimes there's a douche who doesn't know snow is slippery right up my ass while we're heading at a good pitch downhill.  If I have to slam on my brakes there is no way he won't hit me.

After reading all of these snow tire threads across the forums I think I'm finally going to pull the trigger next year on a set of snows.


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## Bumpsis (Jan 5, 2012)

I have no experience with AWD vehicles (with excpetion of a couple vacation rentals out west) so I really can't contribute anthing useful to the FWD vs AWD debate.

 However, I've gone through many really snowy Buffalo winters driving FWD cars with snow tires (no studs) and addressing the starting title of this thread (Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity..), I can say will 100% certainty that you DO NOT need a 4 WD/AWD for driving in snowy, slippery conditions. I went out to ski in sometimes really nasty conditions and always managed to get to a ski area and back. No getting stuck in unplowed parking lots either. Good set of quality winter threads got me through safely  every winter out there.
Living in NE, I always put a set of winters on. Most of the time, it seems almost like I don't need them, but those few times when it snows and it's slippery, I'm really happy I have them on.

One aspect that doesn't seem to be under consideartion in this discussion is the economy of an AWD/4WD vehicle vs FWD. They genearlly cost most more upfront to lease of buy and although I'm far from ceratin about this, but don't the AWD cars crank through more tires than a FWD car?

I recall taking to a Subaru owner a while back who was complaining that having lost one tire (bad flat), he had to replace a whole set. What's the tire wear situation on AWD cars?

Let's face it, winter driving, if we're lucky, is at best, about a 3 month period in NE. The rest of the year, you really don't need an AWD/4WD. The extra weight (differentials, trasfer box) and the wear and tear on the tires may not be worth the money for the performance features that the AWD gives you.


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow?  Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?


I have only had traction control and ABS for a few months now, never drove a car with it before. I still find it unnerving that the car automatically takes over control, even if for only a few split seconds. I hope I don't become deconditioned to rely on them. I like having full control of my car even when conditions are bad. I've only once had a fender bender due to not leaving enough space... it was early fall with wet leaves of all things and I wasn't driving defensively due to under estimating the conditions. At least the traction control light goes off when it starts working so I know somethings up and of course ABS is noticeable. I don't trust them yet but I haven't turned the traction control off excepting when it is "appropriate" to do so.


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## Bumpsis (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I have only had traction control and ABS for a few months now, never drove a car with it before. I still find it unnerving that the car automatically takes over control, even if for only a few split seconds. I hope I don't become deconditioned to rely on them. I like having full control of my car even when conditions are bad. I've only once had a fender bender due to not leaving enough space... it was early fall with wet leaves of all things and I wasn't driving defensively due to under estimating the conditions. At least the traction control light goes off when it starts working so I know somethings up and of course ABS is noticeable. I don't trust them yet but I haven't turned the traction control off excepting when it is "appropriate" to do so.



I think that traction control is a great feature to have. I'm far less concerned about losing control over my car to some automated program. The whole idea of stopping a wheel from spinning and trasferring the engine's power to the wheel can can actually get the car moving is just great. Long time ago, the only way to get traction control was to have a heavy mechanical box full of gears that would do the power transfer. All that usually added some good money to the sticker to have that feature.
Now, a small processor, some sensors and bingo, a mid price car can have a really helpful feature for winter driving.


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## Geoff (Jan 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever.
> 
> As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow.
> 
> A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?



I love these "my dick is bigger than yours" rebuttals.   

If you hit black ice in traffic, I don't care how well you can drive.   Modern friction tires give you a much better coefficient of friction.   If you don't have traction, you can't control the car.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> If your driving into ski country a lot... snow tires should be a given whether you have AWD or FWD. FWD with snows or AWD without snows is an asinine question for anyone driving in snow a lot. AWD or FWD is the question and snows regardless.
> 
> AWD without snows is a great option for metro and suburban commuters who rarely drive in snow and for which snow tires would be mostly overkill with performance and fuel efficiency penalties too outstanding for the few uses the snow tires would get. AWD is enough extra to help on those few big storms that interfere with the commute.



Who says?  Perhaps I am missing something, but still haven't seen the need for snows on an AWD.  Isn't snow snow no matter where you live?  I would think somebody who deals with snow more often would need snow tire less as they are more acustom to driving in the snow?  Well either way I guess it's a personal preference.


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## o3jeff (Jan 5, 2012)

Geoff said:


> I love these "my dick is bigger than yours" rebuttals.
> 
> If you hit black ice in traffic, I don't care how well you can drive.   Modern friction tires give you a much better coefficient of friction.   If you don't have traction, you can't control the car.



Like if these guys had all seasons and took another foot to stop, where would they be?


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Wrong, but if you want to justify upwards of a grand for that nice smug feeling, then so be it. FWD with snows does not trump AWD with anything.
> 
> Again, its the driver, not some tire that you spent to much money on for a warm feeling inside.



Upwards of a grand?  You are shopping for tires at the wrong places.  Checkout http://www.treadepot.com and get them mounted and balanced for free at your local vocational school.  Even my dealer does it for only $19 per tire.



AdironRider said:


> Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever.
> 
> As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow.
> 
> A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?



When I am posting about this, I am assuming the same conditions with the same driver abilities in both theoretical vehicles.
So...
In the FWD w/snows vs. the AWD without example you give above, the FWD w/snows would have been significantly less likely to start the slide at all, given the same conditions.  The snows also reduce the likelihood that "brakes are the enemy", because they would work to stop you.

By the way, I just keep posting here because it is fun, and I would rather be posting about how great the conditions are at the mountain.... but there just isn't enough snow to be talking about that!


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## ERJ-145CA (Jan 5, 2012)

Back in college I drove a Corolla from work back to college in a foot of un-plowed snow.  Probably about 8 miles on the un-plowed road.  No snow tires.  It was dumping so hard that I could only see about 10 feet ahead of the hood.  I didn't get stuck until I got in the parking lot of the college but it was almost in a space so I left it there.  Had to get back to school to party.

It was pretty loose powder BTW, at the time I wasn't skiing though.


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I would think somebody who deals with snow more often would need snow tire less as they are more acustom to driving in the snow?


This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.



No more weird then your original reasoning.  So your telling me somebody in the flat lands near the ocean that sees less snow wouldn't be better served with more tools at their disposal when they get the less frequent snowstorm?  Are your winter/snow tires studded?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2012)

I've really been avoiding this thread and lurking.   But I have to comment that some of the "pro snow tire" people seem to be completely unaware that snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow (actually, some of the "pro snow tire" folk have said exactly the opposite).   

The fact is, BOTH  all-season tires and snow tires are going to lose much or all of their traction advantage in deep snow.   So for ice and light snow?  Sure, snow tires are great and better than all-seasons.  But if it's bombing 1 inch per hour of snow and/or the snow is already piled up several inches on the roads, those snow tires are pretty much overwhelmed and neutered.


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## BigJay (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.



But you should be able to ski on any types of skis... but you won't kill anyone by doing so.

Today, there was a school bus stuck in the ditch next to the dip... because he couldn't keep speed behind a slipping pick-up on RWD.

Oh, and by the way, in Qc, *winter tires are mandatory* from Dec 15th to March 15th.

They should be in VT and NH as well... sometimes, someone need to make smart decisions for you.


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've really been avoiding this thread and lurking.   But I have to comment that some of the "pro snow tire" people seem to be completely unaware that snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow (actually, some of the "pro snow tire" folk have said exactly the opposite).
> 
> The fact is, BOTH  all-season tires and snow tires are going to lose much or all of their traction advantage in deep snow.   So for ice and light snow?  Sure, snow tires are great and better than all-seasons.  But if it's bombing 1 inch per hour of snow and/or the snow is already piled up several inches on the roads, those snow tires are pretty much overwhelmed and neutered.



Do you have the data on "snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow"?  Because in my experience, the snows work wonders compared to regular tires in exactly those conditions.  They are directionally engineered to compact the snow into a surface that gives them purchase.  You have to experience it directly.  Seriously.  And do read the tire reviews, because the snow tires themselves vary in their abilities.

People who ride mountain bikes might see it more clearly.  On soft surfaces, like mud and snow, there is a huge difference between a tire with widely spaced knobs, and one with tightly spaced tread, even if the tightly spaced tread is aggressive.  The tightly spaced tread (like all-season tires) picks up the mud or snow, holds it to the tire, and traction is almost immediately lost.  The widely spaced knobs (like snow tires) compact the surface, bite into it, then shed the mud or snow immediately to ready the tire for the next rotation.  Change the tires, and it is like riding an entirely different bike.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> Do you have the data on "snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow"?  Because in my experience, the *snows work wonders compared to regular tires in exactly those conditions.*



By "regular" do you mean summer tires?  Because if so, then, well sure.  But if you mean all-seasons, then snow tires are still better, just not dramatically so once it gets deep (though snow tires fared much better than all-seasons on ice and light snowy roads).

But this was originally a 4WD with all-seasons vs. 2WD with snow tires conversation, and after some reading some research from Popular Mechanic and a few others, yes, I'd take 4WD with all-seasons over 2WD with snow tires every time.  

*The 4WD was better a*t"not getting stuck", the 4WD destroyed the 2WD at accelerating (73% better), and the 4WD beat the 2WD at hill climbing by 63% (important in ski country).  This makes sense as these are all "drive" applications.

*The 2WD was better at* skid control (but only by 10%), and at the "breaking at 60mph" test (but only by 4%) at 8.17 seconds 2WD w/snows versus 8.5 seconds 4WD w/all-seasons. 

The choice is pretty clear to me.  I mean, yeah, obviously 4WD WITH snow tires is clearly the best choice, but given the parameters of the conversation, I'll take 4WD with jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none all-season tires over the 2WD with the better specialized snow tires.


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## thinnmann (Jan 5, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> *The 4WD was better a*t"not getting stuck", the 4WD destroyed the 2WD at accelerating (73% better), and the 4WD beat the 2WD at hill climbing by 63% (important in ski country).  This makes sense as these are all "drive" applications.
> 
> *The 2WD was better at* skid control (but only by 10%), and at the "breaking at 60mph" test (but only by 4%) at 8.17 seconds 2WD w/snows versus 8.5 seconds 4WD w/all-seasons.
> 
> The choice is pretty clear to me.  I mean, yeah, obviously 4WD WITH snow tires is clearly the best choice, but given the parameters the OP set up, I'll take 4WD with jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none all-seasons over the 2WD with the better specialized snow tires.



Cool!  I am glad someone has come up with data!  Do you have a link, by any chance?  If that data is more than about 5 years old, however, the tread design and rubber compounds have come a long way since then.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> Cool!  I am glad someone has come up with data! * Do you have a link,* by any chance? * If that data is more than about 5 years old, however, the tread design and rubber compounds have come a long way since then*.



I actually looked at a bunch of articles, the one I posted most of the above from is 2 weeks old and from Popular Mechanics (link to 6 slides below, data is on slides 3-5), which should be a decent source. 

 I'd like to see if Consumer Reports has done anything too. 

 One thing I also found (and not surprisingly) is that a lot of the studies and articles are run by tire companies, and they essentially say you're going to die in a fire if you dont have snow tires even if you're in an M-1 Abrams tank (well, not really, but you get the picture.



http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...testing-showdown-winter-vs-all-season#slide-2


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## riverc0il (Jan 6, 2012)

We can go back and forth on this forever. But I think we can all agree, getting back to the original point of the thread, that unless you have a specific need for AWD, it is not a necessity for most folks... FWD with snows should suffice for 99% of drivers. I'd go AWD with snows if I had a steep driveway or if I lived on a road that generally wasn't plowed well or often.

No one said FWD with snows is better than AWD with snows. Clearly the latter is the best. But it is also over kill for most folks. FWD with snows definitely doesn't do as good of a job getting a car moving as AWD with snows but it does amazingly better than FWD without snows. 

AWD being necessarily really comes down to individual circumstances of your starting and ending location, not really the driving you do in between. It can certainly a little but the real benefit to AWD is getting you going out of a deep snow situation.


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## hammer (Jan 6, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> Upwards of a grand?  You are shopping for tires at the wrong places.  Checkout http://www.treadepot.com and get them mounted and balanced for free at your local vocational school.  Even my dealer does it for only $19 per tire.


Unfortunately, not all of us have an older car that we can easily get steel wheels for...for a newer car, the choice is wheels + tires + TPMS which can easily add up to a grand or remount twice/year which puts wear and tear on tires and wheels.

Could I run without TPMS and save a few bucks?  Guess I could...but I know seeing the warning light and having to clear the message for months would be a pain.  Depends on the individual.

There are also vehicles that depend on TPMS as a part of the overall safety systems

And there's no way I'm going to trust my 2-3 YO car to a local vocational school...even for something as simple as a tire/wheel install.

If I had a FWD older car, this would be a no-brainer...but with a new TPMS-equipped AWD car the choice of running good all-seasons vs going with winter and summer tires gets a little less certain.  I know I would get better traction with winter tires...but is the increased performance worth the additional cost/hassle or can I do OK as long as I adjust my driving habits accordingly.


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## frapcap (Jan 6, 2012)

My corolla has _A_ solitary snow tire on it. The other three are all seasons. 
My chances of snow traction have been increased 25%!


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## BigJay (Jan 6, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> We can go back and forth on this forever. But I think we can all agree, getting back to the original point of the thread, that unless you have a specific need for AWD, it is not a necessity for most folks... FWD with snows should suffice for 99% of drivers. I'd go AWD with snows if I had a steep driveway or if I lived on a road that generally wasn't plowed well or often.
> 
> No one said FWD with snows is better than AWD with snows. Clearly the latter is the best. But it is also over kill for most folks. FWD with snows definitely doesn't do as good of a job getting a car moving as AWD with snows but it does amazingly better than FWD without snows.
> 
> AWD being necessarily really comes down to individual circumstances of your starting and ending location, not really the driving you do in between. It can certainly a little but the real benefit to AWD is getting you going out of a deep snow situation.



Exactly... and for those who don't have snow tires: Stay south... or get out of the way and stop driving at 20mph when it snows only an inch! :razz:


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 6, 2012)

BigJay said:


> Exactly... and for those who don't have snow tires: Stay south... or get out of the way and stop driving at 20mph when it snows only an inch! :razz:



Hahaha!  AWD, all seasons and 5mph faster then the posted speed limit (highway of course) for me. :beer:


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## mlctvt (Jan 6, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> We have a 2007 Outback that we drive to VT most every weekend in the winter and see a dramattic difference between all seasons and snow tires.  Snow tires go on in early December and stay on through mud season in the spring.



+1, Same with our 2 Subarus as well as our Honda Element. 

All Season tires are great at nothing but just Ok in snow and just Ok in dry/hot conditions. They're a compromise tire. 
I'd rather have the best tool for the job.
We run Summer performance tires and Snow tires. Have multiple sets of rims for each so the switch over take just a few minutes. The only downside is I had to get a storage rack for the extra 20 wheels/tires that are in my garage! (We also have 3 different sets of rims tires for the Miata, multiple sets of racing tires)


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## HowieT2 (Jan 6, 2012)

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction 

pretty much as the consensus here.  AWD/4wd best for getting going and going up hills.  snow tires better for stopping and maintaining control at speed.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction
> 
> pretty much as the consensus here.  AWD/4wd best for getting going and going up hills.  snow tires better for stopping and maintaining control at speed.



Another good study (I missed that one).  And their findings in the below would be enough to clinch 4WD over 2WD for me in ski country.  Mountains arent flat.  Frankly, the only real advantage 2WD+snows had is in breaking, and it wasnt that substantial, not to mention, proper driving further mitigates that slight advantage (i.e. Dont tailgate, and WTH is going to be driving like a bat out of hell at 120mph on snowy roads anyway?)  This choice is obvious.



> Both four-wheel-drivers, even shod with stock all-season tires, were able to ascend the 30-percent grade, whereas the 2wd cars could only conquer the 10- and 15-percent grades.
> 
> As our braking tests would later confirm, winter tires can improve straight-line grip by as much as a third relative to all-season tires. But four-wheel drive doubles the grip of a stock two-wheel-drive car when accelerating or climbing a grade.



EDIT:   And here's another thing that seems obvious that none of us considered.   What about after the snow when the roads are cleared or there is a thaw?   This is the only study that considered that, and once the roads are cleared, the all-season tires bested the snow tires in stopping and control.    This is a huge consideration we havent even mentioned, given how great they clear roads up in Vermont, New Hampshire, etc......   Frankly, in Vermont the highways and roads are "clear" for more of the winter than they are snow covered.


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## mlctvt (Jan 6, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.
> 
> Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.



You're wrong. 
Several years ago one of the major car mags either Car&Driver or Road and Track ran a test of several makes of cars that were offered in both AWD and 2wd. 
They put snow tires on the 2wd cars and left the OEM all season tires on the AWD cars. Then they ran tests in dry, wet, snow and Ice. 
Every single 2WD car with snow tire outperformed the AWD version with all season tires in snow and ice every case. 

Tires are much better than AWD
I'll see if I cna locate the test article

Edit sorry - I see HowieT2 referenced this article


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## Glenn (Jan 6, 2012)

I read this entire thread in 2wd, then in AWD, then in 4wd...then in 4wd with a locked transfer case...with open diffs. I then read it with Summer tires, all seasons, snows and studded snows. 

I can't beleive it's 9 pages.


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## gmcunni (Jan 6, 2012)

Glenn said:


> I read this entire thread in 2wd, then in AWD, then in 4wd...then in 4wd with a locked transfer case...with open diffs. I then read it with Summer tires, all seasons, snows and studded snows.
> 
> I can't beleive it's 9 pages.



i'm sure if you put chains on and re-read you'll have a totally different perspective.


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## thinnmann (Jan 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> Unfortunately, not all of us have an older car that we can easily get steel wheels for...for a newer car, the choice is wheels + tires + TPMS which can easily add up to a grand or remount twice/year which puts wear and tear on tires and wheels.
> 
> Could I run without TPMS and save a few bucks?  Guess I could...but I know seeing the warning light and having to clear the message for months would be a pain.  Depends on the individual.
> 
> ...



Getting winter tires is not an additional cost, because then both sets last longer.  In the long run, the tire cost is a wash, as long as you don't splurge on the extra rims.

The increase in performance is worth it because it can save the entire vehicle from more costly crash damage.


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## mlctvt (Jan 6, 2012)

The increase in performance is worth it because it can save the entire vehicle from more costly crash damage.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> exactly, It blows my mind that people drop $20K, $30K, even $40K plus  but they won't spend an extra 500-1K for a proper extra set of rims/tires.
> Many of these same people think nothing of spending 1k-2K extra for leather seats, GPS etc.
> I guess tires/wheels aren't exciting accessories to most.
> 
> I've got a friend that has nice late model BMW sedan and he bitches that it isn't very good in snow. When I looked at his tires I noticed they were running performance summer tires since that is what the car came with. I blame some of this on the dealers/manufacturers for not educating the consumer. Many performance models come with summer only tires and some people are clueless when it comes to cars.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> You're wrong.
> Several years ago one of the major car mags either Car&Driver or Road and Track ran a test of several makes of cars that were offered in both AWD and 2wd.
> They put snow tires on the 2wd cars and left the OEM all season tires on the AWD cars. Then they ran tests in dry, wet, snow and Ice.
> *Every single 2WD car with snow tire outperformed the AWD version with all season tires in snow and ice every case.*



Someone jumped into the thread on the last page and hasnt been reading.   Several studies have already been referenced my myself and another poster that suggested exactly the opposite of what you just posted above.

To sum it up, the only advantage 2WD+snows had over 4WD+all-seasons was in breaking and cornering/handling, but they were both pretty modest advantages.  In all the other testing categories, 4WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows.  This should be intuitively obvious, as drive power applications like climbing ability, acceleration, getting unstuck from 0mph, etc....   will always be dominated by AWD.

Not to mention, once the snow melted and the roads were cleared, even 2WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows!


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## x10003q (Jan 6, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> Getting winter tires is not an additional cost, because then both sets last longer.  In the long run, the tire cost is a wash, as long as you don't splurge on the extra rims.
> 
> The increase in performance is worth it because it can save the entire vehicle from more costly crash damage.



Unless you have access to tire changing mounting and balancing equipment getting winter tires is an additional cost. I have snows on my FWD. It is $100 each time I swap. As to the tires lasting longer - tires dry out and get hard with age so there might be tread left on the tire, but you need to replace them anyway. Also, the snows wear out faster because of the softer compound and winters like this one (so far). 

I am headed up to VT shortly. As usual there is no need for snow tires on my AWD.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

x10003q said:


> *I am headed up to VT shortly. As usual there is no need for snows on my AWD*.



This is the one thing that I've learned from the study the other poster linked.   And it's obvious, yet nobody thinks about it (including me).

Yeah, snow tires 100% help in snow, there's no doubt about it.  But what about the 95% of the time there's no snow on the road!  Or the 24 hours after the storm when the road's department has you back to blacktop.   Once the roads are cleared and dry (or you get the January thaw), the cars with all-seasons performed better than the cars with snow tires.   I'd still want snow tires on a 2WD if I lived in snow country, but that really gives you pause for thought.


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## gmcunni (Jan 6, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Unless you have access to tire changing mounting and balancing equipment getting winter tires is an additional cost. I have snows on my FWD. It is $100 each time I swap.



it depends on your vehicle but i had snows on an inexpensive set of steel rims.   i'd just jack up the car and swap the wheels out myself every winter/spring.  took about 15 minutes.  the steel rims were relatively cheap when  i bought them as part of the "winter package" from tirerack.com.   

my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 6, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> it depends on your vehicle but i had snows on an inexpensive set of steel rims.   i'd just jack up the car and swap the wheels out myself every winter/spring.  took about 15 minutes.  the steel rims were relatively cheap when  i bought them as part of the "winter package" from tirerack.com.
> 
> my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.



In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?


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## gmcunni (Jan 6, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?



i don't know, probably tho.

i had a 2000 saab.  summer tires were low profile 16 inch and my snows were high sidewall 15 inch.  there was a setting (i didn't bother with it) for the speedo to adjust rim size for speed/mileage accuracy.   cars today have sensors for air pressure and such.  but when i put the crappy steel rim spare on the SUV it works ok.  i did have a problem once with the air pressure sensor. the previous rotation didn't reset them so it said my front tire was low when it was my rear.  so i guess even with the electronic monitoring there is a opportunity for error.


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## mlctvt (Jan 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Someone jumped into the thread on the last page and hasnt been reading.   Several studies have already been referenced my myself and another poster that suggested exactly the opposite of what you just posted above.
> 
> To sum it up, the only advantage 2WD+snows had over 4WD+all-seasons was in breaking and cornering/handling, but they were both pretty modest advantages.  In all the other testing categories, 4WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows.  This should be intuitively obvious, as drive power applications like climbing ability, acceleration, getting unstuck from 0mph, etc....   will always be dominated by AWD.
> 
> Not to mention, once the snow melted and the roads were cleared, even 2WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows!




 Did you read the article from above?   Here's the summary

So What's the Bottom Line? 
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.

And finally, unless snow or ice covers your roads many times in a winter, the snow benefits of winter tires may not outweigh their drawbacks on dry pavement.

There, Nevin. And don't ask which came first, the chicken or the egg.


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## hammer (Jan 6, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.


So did you get winter tires on it anyway?


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## BigJay (Jan 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the one thing that I've learned from the study the other poster linked.   And it's obvious, yet nobody thinks about it (including me).
> 
> Yeah, snow tires 100% help in snow, there's no doubt about it.  But what about the 95% of the time there's no snow on the road!  Or the 24 hours after the storm when the road's department has you back to blacktop.   Once the roads are cleared and dry (or you get the January thaw), the cars with all-seasons performed better than the cars with snow tires.   I'd still want snow tires on a 2WD if I lived in snow country, but that really gives you pause for thought.



Wrong again. All-season tires are made for deperature above 50F... as soon as temps drop, all-season get to firm and won't grip as much:
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/brochure/winter/tmpSafetyBelow45.jsp

What about your safety and the safety of others? I'd sue for negligence if someone would run into my family because they can justify paying 40k$ for an SUV but can't be smart enough to buy the right set of tires for their application!

Again, we see a lot of folks with plates from the south who can't get up the hill... and we see a lot of SUVs, who think AWD makes them ,god rolled over in the ditch on both sides of the 242...

I think we have a much tougher weather up here in Qc... and yet, the cars sold are mostly compact cars (Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Volks, Hyunday and Kia)... all FWD... but everyone drives with snow tires... They're mandatory for 2 years now... but that doesn't change... i don't know anyone who doesn't have winter tires...

But again, please, stay off the road if it snows... it sucks being stuck behind a slow moving car in an inch of snow!


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## gmcunni (Jan 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> So did you get winter tires on it anyway?



no, i got a jeep wrangler as MY car  

the suv needs new rubber.  i plan to  look for a good all season tire with a slant towards good snow traction.


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## o3jeff (Jan 6, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> no, i got a jeep wrangler as MY car
> 
> the suv needs new rubber.  i plan to  look for a good all season tire with a slant towards good snow traction.



Didn't you read this thread, you need both.


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## AdironRider (Jan 6, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?



Unfortunately not. As of 2007 every vehicle in the USA has to have TPMS. Unfortunately, most of these sensors are very simple at best, and are usually programmed for the specs for the factory stock tires. 

I know I get the joy of a flashing TPMS light every time I drive cause I stepped up to 10 plys and run about 20 psi higher than the stock 4 ply all season tires my truck came with. Ive spent hours trying to figure out a way to bypass the system, but thanks to the feds, on almost any vehicle there is little you can do.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> *Did you read the article from above?   Here's the summary*



I prefer to focus on the actual data in studies than the summary, because you never know what their bias is (i.e. does the car magazine receive $$ in advertising dollars from tire companies).  

And the raw data in the studies suggests that the 4WD with all-seasons has major advantages in the categories tested in which the 4WD "won" (hill climbing, acceleration, not getting stuck), but the 2WD with snow tires only had modest advantages in the categories tested in which the 2WD "won" (braking, curve handling).  

I'd rather have the 4WD vehicle with major advantages and slight disadvantageous than the 2WD vehicle with modest advantageous and major disadvantages.  

That's not to mention that even in the summary it noted that 4WD is better in hilly or mountainous areas, and given this discussion is about ski country (i.e. not flat areas) one would think that if you focused on the summary that finding should take precedence.

Not to mention, in winter, when the roads are dry and/or recovered, all-seasons outperformed snow tires in the study regardless of whether you're talking about a 4WD or a 2WD vehicle.




BigJay said:


> But again, please, stay off the road if it snows... it sucks being stuck behind a slow moving car in an inch of snow!



You seem very upset.  I'm thinking you're one of the people I was hypothesizing in my first post in this thread.    Unlike you, I'm not "all emotional" over this issue and prefer to analyze the facts and actual data to make my determination. 

 I've tried to do my best to look at that in this thread from the studies I (and others) have posted, and to that end, it seems pretty clear that 4WD with all-seasons bests 2WD with Snow tires (although 4WD with snow tires was head and shoulders the best performer).

 To that end, a pro tip?   

You might not want to use "Discount Tire Direct" for your "factual" information regarding tire performance. Lol.  I'd sooner use an unblinded study from Merck or Pfizer for taking advice on drug studies!


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## Bacon (Jan 6, 2012)

"Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do."

What front wheel drive Audi's? Curious if it was the 4's or 6's?


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 6, 2012)

i didnt put tpms on my 17" winter rims/tires...i'm not bothered by the tire light on the dash....i can check the pressure old school...with a guage...


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 6, 2012)

BigJay said:


> Wrong again. All-season tires are made for deperature above 50F... as soon as temps drop, all-season get to firm and won't grip as much:
> http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/brochure/winter/tmpSafetyBelow45.jsp
> 
> What about your safety and the safety of others? I'd sue for negligence if someone would run into my family because they can justify paying 40k$ for an SUV but can't be smart enough to buy the right set of tires for their application!
> ...



So when you're talking winter tires, your talking winter tires without studs or with?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> *So when you're talking winter tires, your talking winter tires without studs or with?*



Brian, DONT!!!!!


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Brian, DOHNT!!!!!



Well the only reason I ask is because I assume they are talking unstudded winter tires.  And if this is the case, and they are threatening others with suing them or calling them irresponsible and what not should shut the hell up.  I mean if you are going to crticize or threaten and you are nut running studded snow tires then you should shut the f up.


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## Geoff (Jan 6, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i didnt put tpms on my 17" winter rims/tires...i'm not bothered by the tire light on the dash....i can check the pressure old school...with a guage...



In Vermont or Rhode Island, your car would fail inspection.   Of course, you can always align your inspection sticker so you do it the warm 6 months.

TPMS on my VW is about $50.00/wheel (Dorman 974-041).   That's the VW/Audi sender.   You can get them on Amazon with free shipping or as part of a Tire Rack package.  I have no problem spending that.  I imagine an Audi dealer would want 3x that much.


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## Geoff (Jan 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the one thing that I've learned from the study the other poster linked.   And it's obvious, yet nobody thinks about it (including me).
> 
> Yeah, snow tires 100% help in snow, there's no doubt about it.  But what about the 95% of the time there's no snow on the road!  Or the 24 hours after the storm when the road's department has you back to blacktop.   Once the roads are cleared and dry (or you get the January thaw), the cars with all-seasons performed better than the cars with snow tires.   I'd still want snow tires on a 2WD if I lived in snow country, but that really gives you pause for thought.



My point of view is that I optimize for black ice.   That's the condition where I'm most at risk.   If I can throw $1K at a tire/wheel/tpms setup that improves my safety margin in black ice, it's worth it to me.   Most years, I only hit black ice a few times but I think $1K is way better than dying in a car crash from a few moments of inattention.


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## gmcunni (Jan 6, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Didn't you read this thread, you need both.



but i'm an excellent driver


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## hammer (Jan 9, 2012)

Parked next to a full-size SUV at Sunapee on Sunday with practically bald tires...would be interesting to see it try to get through the snow.


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## bigbob (Jan 9, 2012)

Geoff said:


> My point of view is that I optimize for black ice.   That's the condition where I'm most at risk.   If I can throw $1K at a tire/wheel/tpms setup that improves my safety margin in black ice, it's worth it to me.   Most years, I only hit black ice a few times but I think $1K is way better than dying in a car crash from a few moments of inattention.



I hit a patch of black ice in my "yellow sports car" the other day, stayed off the brakes and steered,. I am glad no one was coming in the other direction. It weighs 25,000 lbs empty and 65,000 lbs full. I was empty.  
 Hydroplaning is even worse than black ice!


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## mlctvt (Jan 9, 2012)

Geoff said:


> My point of view is that I optimize for black ice.   That's the condition where I'm most at risk.   If I can throw $1K at a tire/wheel/tpms setup that improves my safety margin in black ice, it's worth it to me.   Most years, I only hit black ice a few times but I think $1K is way better than dying in a car crash from a few moments of inattention.



Then you should definitely get studden snow tires. That's what almost everyone in Northern Vt runs. 
Living in CT I couldn't handle the noise and terrible handling of studded tires on dry roads but nothing besides chains beats them for ice.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> *nothing besides chains beats them for ice*.



Chains are even better than snow tires, but there's NO WAY I could run chains.  Not being able to go over 35mph or so?  That would kill me before the road conditions do.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 10, 2012)

i guess i should change my ID...the Audi was sold back in June..the winter rubber is on the suburban...i just got a set of sensors free, i'll have them installed when these snows wear out and i have to replace them...


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## hammer (Jan 10, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i guess i should change my ID...the Audi was sold back in June..the winter rubber is on the suburban...i just got a set of sensors free, i'll have them installed when these snows wear out and i have to replace them...


Good deal on the sensors, I've seen prices from $50-$70 for each one. :beer:


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## hammer (Aug 2, 2012)

The OEM tires on my Volvo just needed to be replaced...got just over 50K out of them which isn't bad for sport tires.  Replaced them with Continental ExtremeContact DWS tires, know that getting snows is optimal but I couldn't see the additional expense.  The new tires are supposed to be good in the snow for all-seasons, will have to see how that works.


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## Nick (Aug 2, 2012)

I've had cars with winter tires in the past and I can certainly get through almost anything with it. That said; we did buy a new car (Ford Edge) this year in AWD and I do think in  snowstorms I'd rather have the AWD + good tires than good tires alone. 

At the end of the day, I think given the same vehicle otherwise, 

Summer Tires < All Season < Winter Tires < AWD < AWD + Winter Tires


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## mister moose (Aug 2, 2012)

Nick said:


> At the end of the day, I think given the same vehicle otherwise,
> 
> Summer Tires < All Season < Winter Tires < AWD < AWD + Winter Tires




I would change that to

Summer Tires < All Season < AWD < Winter Tires FrontWD < AWD + Winter Tires

All seasons can really let you down.  I've been there several times.  And in a braking situation, AWD doesn't matter.  Well, minimally if the AWD helps you keep the wheel turning after it locks up on you in a skid.

4 good snows on a front wheel drive car is great in the snow.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2012)

mister moose said:


> I would change that to
> 
> Summer Tires < All Season < AWD < Winter Tires FrontWD < AWD + Winter Tires
> 
> ...



+1

My old FWD Sonata with snows performed better than the AWD A6 with All Seasons that I had prior to it.


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## skunkape (Aug 2, 2012)

In tahoe everybody puts on snow tires for the season, you don't even need chains if you have AWD/4WD with snow tires. Got a Land Rover AWD this year to replace the ford escape that was dying.......


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## Hawkshot99 (Aug 2, 2012)

I used to have a AWD car with all seasons.  When we would get a snow storm I would go to the parking lots and have tons of fun drifting it though the snow.  When I moved to the mountains I bought it Snow tires on steel rims.  It definitely drove WAY better than before.  I went to a parking lot and was disappointed I could no longer get it to drift:-((This is good when driving though:wink

Then I bought a truck with good ground clearance and nice off road tires.  Makes the snow tires on the AWD seem bald.


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## HD333 (Nov 22, 2013)

After driving up to the seasonal rental last weekend we decided that snows where in our best interest on our Tahoe for the climb up the MT to the condo.  I will feel better knowing we have them on the drive up and back as well in inclement weather.  So snows plus AWD/4WD for us.  Keeping the JKU with it's all weathers as we won't be road tripping very often in that, plus if I get stuck in a Jeep then clearly it is operator error.

Getting them mounted today on our existing rims, didn't want to drop the extra $ on rims right now, so if we see no snow for a week or so it may be my fault, I promise I will wash the car this weekend to offset the mounting of the snows.


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## dlague (Nov 22, 2013)

70% of the time no!  However, that being said I will take our 4WD/AWD vehicle any day since it helps on those heavy snow days going up to Jay Peak or Bolton Valley.  Even driving through some of the notches - I am thankful!  Since those days are the best day (for the most part), it is yes to 4WD/AWD!


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## The Sneak (Nov 22, 2013)

A Subie WRX or similar with dedicated snows is damn near unstoppable, particularly if you haven't foolishly lowered it and destroyed your ground clearance. Come to think of it, an Outback XT or something with snows would prob be my ideal winter car. Subarus are Audis for smart people. 

I have always had FWD daily drivers, with the exception of the 1995 BMW 325is I drove for 6 years. I never once had a problem aside from ground clearance (trying to drive down unplowed streets during and after storms like PD 2003, december 03 blizzard, jan 05 blizzard etc) in the BMW...I had Blizzaks on it. 

In college, I had an old Saab 900 with Nokian Hakkapellita snows. It got me from UMF to the Loaf and back daily with no drama. I do remember a silver 964 C4 Carrera (early 90 911s first gen AWD 911) with a roof rack showing up nearly every wknd with NY plates. 

For flatlanders who are day trip wknd warrior skiers, I think FWD with good snows (or even really good all seasons like Continental DWS extreme) is reasonable. My daily driving requirements (65 mi round trip commute 5 days a week) mean that the poor(er) fuel econ of an AWD car is a questionable tradeoff. If I owned a place up north, I'd prob suck it up and get a WRX or 4wd truck.


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2013)

I like owning AWD cars...  Just another tool in the toolbox...  Doesn't really affect my masculinity...  

I didn't have them for years and years so I know I can drive most places...
In the late 80's we did Killington in a storm driving and Mustang GT..  Only got stuck once...

I've also seen AWD cars sliding backwards on rt4 heading the Sugarbush... 
Sh!tty driver is just that...


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## C-Rex (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm on my 3rd WRX and I can't say enough for them.  So much fun to drive, decent mileage considering the power, and reliable as hell.  My '13 has a surprising amount of trunk space for a smaller car.  With the roof rack I can easily get 4 people and all our gear on board.  I've cruised right up the killington access road on an icy day when 4wd trucks were sliding backwards.  And I've driven my '06 down unplowed roads with 10 inches of snow and higher drifts with no problem. Snow was coming up over the hood and I was worried that the radiator opening would get packed up and cause me to overheat but it never became an issue.  I have a lead foot so I get around 23mpg average when commuting where my drive is about 50/50 back roads to highway.  On long highway trips I can get over 27mpg if I keep it under 75mph.  That's not too bad considering AWD and 265 hp on tap.


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## hammer (Nov 22, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> I'm on my 3rd WRX and I can't say enough for them.  So much fun to drive, decent mileage considering the power, and reliable as hell.  My '13 has a surprising amount of trunk space for a smaller car.  With the roof rack I can easily get 4 people and all our gear on board.  I've cruised right up the killington access road on an icy day when 4wd trucks were sliding backwards.  And I've driven my '06 down unplowed roads with 10 inches of snow and higher drifts with no problem. Snow was coming up over the hood and I was worried that the radiator opening would get packed up and cause me to overheat but it never became an issue.  I have a lead foot so I get around 23mpg average when commuting where my drive is about 50/50 back roads to highway.  On long highway trips I can get over 27mpg if I keep it under 75mph.  That's not too bad considering AWD and 265 hp on tap.


How are the insurance rates on the WRX?


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 22, 2013)

Our ski vehicle will be my wife's Jetta tdi wagon we bought in the spring.  We will put snows on it, and I expect it to do nicely for most of our ski trips.  If needed, we can use my Ram 4x4 gas guzzler.  At 13 mpg, prefer to let it hang out in the driveway.  I do use the truck when I go to my local hill so that my wife isn't stuck driving it - or worse yet, my van...  She hates both!


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## C-Rex (Nov 22, 2013)

hammer said:


> How are the insurance rates on the WRX?



Not too bad since it's a sedan and they get very good safety ratings.  But telling you my rates wouldn't give you a good idea because I have a dividend policy with Amica and a less than spotless driving record.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 22, 2013)

"Is 4WD/AWD a necessity on your ski vehicle?"  Well I don't like use my truck for skiing. But as far as getting around up here in ski country, having good snow tires make a huge difference (studs are annoying and overkill). I have mine mounted on a set of steel rims. Even in just 2 wheel drive they really help keep the back end from stepping out in slippery conditions. When it gets deep, the feeling of all four tires hooking up and pulling the truck through the snow is a good feeling. And then, IMHO, the most important part is being able to stop and/or not slide sideways off the road. The difference here between non-snow and snow tires can be HUGE.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 22, 2013)

My ski car is a Subaru Imprezza Outback Sport. Same car as a WRX without the extra horsepower. Engine power is adequate for the way I drive. Car runs on regular gas not high test which is required in the WRX & STI models. That can save in excess 30-40 cents a gallon which adds up. The sport model also has an extra 2" of ground clearance due to a raised suspension. Haven't really noticed much of a difference in gas mileage between running her with snow tires as opposed to all seasons. Temperature seems to be a more important factor for gas mileage than tires. In warm weather I get around 31mpg hwy & in cold weather about 28mpg hwy. Car comes with a built in roof rack if I ever wanted to put a box on top. Haven't needed to even though I already own a box I used on my previous car. Plenty of space for two people with ski's & luggage with the back seats down. If I ever was going to drive her with more than two people then I'd put the box on which would only take a couple of minutes because the racks are already there. I know I used to lose about 2-3mpg with the box on top with my old car. Don't know how much I'd lose with the Subi. This is my first AWD car & it makes a huge difference when driving in snow, especially climbing hills. Last year was the first year I put snow tires on her & I couldn't really tell you how much better they are in snow as opposed to all seasons. Only had one opportunity to drive in snow last year because I got hurt early in the season & couldn't drive. I know even with all seasons she went through snow with no problem. I've been very happy with the car.


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## El Bishop (Nov 22, 2013)

What makes more sense: switching tires for snows on existing rims or buying 4 new rims and doing the switch myself?  I figure teh cost savings from not paying to put them on and off the rims would cover the cost of the rims within a season or two.  But do I need to be concerned with the balance if I switch out four wheels myself?


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## Riverskier (Nov 22, 2013)

I have always had fwd cars. Up until 2 years ago I always just used all season tires and got around fine (no mountain passes or anything). Two years ago I finally bought snow tires, and wow, what a difference! I actually enjoy driving in the snow now, and haven't had a problem driving in even the worst storms. I feel like I am driving a tank, and can't imagine ever needing AWD or 4WD, though it would be nice. Talk about tanks though, my wife drives a 2011 Subaru Outback with snow tires, and that thing is a beast! You can literally drive through snowbanks in that thing.


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## octopus (Nov 22, 2013)

El Bishop said:


> What makes more sense: switching tires for snows on existing rims or buying 4 new rims and doing the switch myself?  I figure teh cost savings from not paying to put them on and off the rims would cover the cost of the rims within a season or two.  But do I need to be concerned with the balance if I switch out four wheels myself?



it seems to kinda be a wash, at least around here. i've heard a couple tire dealers advertise they'll change over your snow tires every year(free) for you if you buy them at that dealer. i personally went on craigslist and just bought a used set of rims and tires because my stock rims are kinda nice alloys.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 22, 2013)

octopus said:


> it seems to kinda be a wash, at least around here. i've heard a couple tire dealers advertise they'll change over your snow tires every year(free) for you if you buy them at that dealer. i personally went on craigslist and just bought a used set of rims and tires because my stock rims are kinda nice alloys.



My tire dealer offered to change my tires free of charge because I bought both sets of tires from him.


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## RichT (Nov 22, 2013)

We have all Subaru's, four of them. We keep one up at our house in Hunter and non of them have snow tires just "all weather" ones. These Subie's are the best! My wife and daughter both drive Outback wagons and average 30 miles per gallon! Way better then the overpriced Audi's. I drive an Impreza, very basic cheap commuter car.


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## HD333 (Nov 22, 2013)

El Bishop said:


> What makes more sense: switching tires for snows on existing rims or buying 4 new rims and doing the switch myself? I figure teh cost savings from not paying to put them on and off the rims would cover the cost of the rims within a season or two. But do I need to be concerned with the balance if I switch out four wheels myself?



I had a Saab with nice rims and I used to switch the wheels out for snows mounted on cheap steel wheels each year myself, had them balanced once and never had to do it again. With the Tahoe the cost of rims was a bit much (had a tough time finding simple steel wheels) so I went with mounting the tires on the existing rims, in the long run separate wheels will probably be cheaper, but I am banking on at least a few "free" switch overs for being a repeat customer, unfortunately after looking at the summer tires that just came off I think I will be in the market for some summer tires come May.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 22, 2013)

Nick said:


> Summer Tires < All Season < Winter Tires < AWD < AWD + Winter Tires



There are a lot of variables to consider (weight of vehicle, etc...), but all things considered the above is typically correct*

 *assuming your "AWD" at least has all seasons on it, which it should given the "summer tires" are pretty much going the way of the Dodo bird anyway.


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## mlctvt (Nov 22, 2013)

hammer said:


> How are the insurance rates on the WRX?



Absolutely crappy for us on our '05 WRX. Much more than our 05 Legacy GT even though the Legacy has more horsepower and is worth more.
WRXs are VERY expensive to insure even with a perfectly clean 30 year history for both my wife and I . Kids wreck too many and drive up the rates for everyone.

I'm with C-Rex on these WRXs, awesome cars. Especially with snow tires!  
I'm thinking about getting a new 2014 WRX hatchback since the 2015 won't have a hatchback version available.


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## podunk77 (Nov 22, 2013)

I've never had 4WD or snow tires on any car I've owned.  I'm a big believer in "keep your speed down in adverse weather conditions and you'll be fine."


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## where's the snow (Nov 22, 2013)

Nissan maxima studded snow tires haven't gotten stuck in the 10 years ive owned her


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 22, 2013)

I can give my experience as a police officer. 4WD is nice to have after a storm if the roads haven't plowed or sanded adequately. Some mountain access roads are worse than others too. There is a downside to 4WD though. It gives a lot of people a false sense of security. Drivers go faster and take a lot more risks. I receive a lot more calls for accidents and rollovers for 4WD vehicles than non during storms. Good tires and smart driving can get you there safe and sound. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> 4WD is nice to have after a storm if the roads haven't plowed or sanded adequately. Some mountain access roads are worse than others too.




...this...


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## ScottySkis (Nov 22, 2013)

podunk77 said:


> I've never had 4WD or snow tires on any car I've owned.  I'm a big believer in "keep your speed down in adverse weather conditions and you'll be fine."



Try going up hill in season tires with front wheel drive doesn't usually work in few inches. My little Toyota Tercell was great in snow. My Honda Accord not so much.


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## octopus (Nov 22, 2013)

i almost didn't make it into magic mtn a couple years ago with the stock tires on my vw golf after a couple inches of snow were on the road, the same thing happened at sunday river going up a hill. got a set of blizzak tires and its much better now.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 22, 2013)

My tires were worn out on my jeep this fall and I decided to go with a good set of all terrain tires instead of the snow tires since I did not want to deal with changing them every fall and spring. Much better in the snow then all season and not as good as snows but you can stud the ATT's if you wish but I don't think I need to. With 4wd and ATT's I would pretty much have to try to get stuck....


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 22, 2013)

octopus said:


> i almost didn't make it into magic mtn a couple years ago with the stock tires on my vw golf after a couple inches of snow were on the road, the same thing happened at sunday river going up a hill. got a set of blizzak tires and its much better now.



Hmm...Magics road is usually pretty manageable. It's leaving the parking lot that sucks. It's ridiculous that they don't have a plow truck.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Cheese (Nov 22, 2013)

octopus said:


> it seems to kinda be a wash, at least around here. i've heard a couple tire dealers advertise they'll change over your snow tires every year(free) for you if you buy them at that dealer. i personally went on craigslist and just bought a used set of rims and tires because my stock rims are kinda nice alloys.



Usually the benefit comes from being able to buy smaller and narrow rims and therefore cheaper snow tires than those which would fit on stock rims.  TireRack explains it pretty thoroughly below:

_Tire Rack's Preferred Winter Packages* often feature alternate sizes  that combine smaller diameter wheels (that fit over the vehicle's  Original Equipment brakes and within its wheelwell) with narrower,  higher profile tires (that have equivalent load capacities and overall  diameters). This not only promotes better deep snow traction, but also  results in less expensive Winter / Snow Tire & Wheel Packages. An  additional advantage higher profile tire sizes offer is they feature  taller sidewalls and smaller diameter wheels that more easily resist  damage associated with winter road hazards and early spring potholes._


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## goldsbar (Nov 22, 2013)

As someone who has driven a RWD Z3 M Coupe with summer tires in the snow (young and dumb), RWD Miata with Summer tires in the snow (missed the forecast)...you can do anything.  But, AWD is a definite plus when you're trying to get up some steep dirt road covered with snow and cars are stopped in front of you.  All seasons are great when they're new.  Once you put around 10k miles on them, snow performance deteriorates significantly.  So answer is FWD with decent tires is fine 95% of the time, while AWD gives you that extra can make it anywhere, anytime.  Put snows on either and you won't get stuck.

Now, for normal driving, nothing beats RWD and RWD with snows is very workable...


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 22, 2013)

Cheese said:


> Usually the benefit comes from being able to buy smaller and narrow rims and therefore cheaper snow tires than those which would fit on stock rims.  TireRack explains it pretty thoroughly below:
> 
> _Tire Rack's Preferred Winter Packages* often feature alternate sizes  that combine smaller diameter wheels (that fit over the vehicle's  Original Equipment brakes and within its wheelwell) with narrower,  higher profile tires (that have equivalent load capacities and overall  diameters). This not only promotes better deep snow traction, but also  results in less expensive Winter / Snow Tire & Wheel Packages. An  additional advantage higher profile tire sizes offer is they feature  taller sidewalls and smaller diameter wheels that more easily resist  damage associated with winter road hazards and early spring potholes._


Great point they made about the size of tires. Wider low profile tires snows or not usually are not good in the snow. My X5 has that type of setup with AWD and I hate it in the snow.


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## KD7000 (Nov 22, 2013)

I've had dedicated summer tires and a second set of snow tires/winter wheels on nearly all of my vehicles, ever.  On RWD, FWD, and AWD cars. I consider it mandatory if you want to be able to drive anywhere, anytime regardless of road conditions.


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## JDMRoma (Nov 22, 2013)

KD7000 said:


> I've had dedicated summer tires and a second set of snow tires/winter wheels on nearly all of my vehicles, ever.  On RWD, FWD, and AWD cars. I consider it mandatory if you want to be able to drive anywhere, anytime regardless of road conditions.



Same here, Im a TireRack customer……nice being able to do the change over when YOU want to do it ! Lotta mornings going through the Notch at 6:30 am that were pretty treacherous…..and no issues with my AWD Matrix with Michelin Xice's on it.


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## KD7000 (Nov 22, 2013)

I am awaiting a rebate from Tire Rack right now for the set of Dunlop Wintersports I just put on our Mazda.


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## twinplanx (Nov 22, 2013)

Do you guys think it's necessary to mount snowtires on all 4 wheels for a front wheel drive vehicle?  I'm thinking for the few times that I am able to get to the mountains that I can get away with just snows on the front. 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 22, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Do you guys think it's necessary to mount snowtires on all 4 wheels for a front wheel drive vehicle?  I'm thinking for the few times that I am able to get to the mountains that I can get away with just snows on the front.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


If your going to do it...Do it right! Go with all 4


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## KD7000 (Nov 22, 2013)

I'd recommend doing all 4 if you're going to bother at all.  You're at a much higher risk of the back end spinning around if you're running mismatched tires.  

Plus, if you have 4 tires you can rotate them and get longer life.


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## Edd (Nov 22, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Do you guys think it's necessary to mount snowtires on all 4 wheels for a front wheel drive vehicle? I'm thinking for the few times that I am able to get to the mountains that I can get away with just snows on the front.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



As far as braking goes, I'd want them on the rear wheels, too.


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## JDMRoma (Nov 22, 2013)

Yes All 4 IS a Must, your braking won't be right if you have snows up front and all season in the rear or vice versa !
Money well spent and you extend the life of your summer tires…less mileage on them !


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## JDMRoma (Nov 22, 2013)

KD7000 said:


> I am awaiting a rebate from Tire Rack right now for the set of Dunlop Wintersports I just put on our Mazda.


the only thing I didn't like about getting the extra set of rims and tires was the TPMS sensors…I didn't bother spending the extra $200 for them….screw it, I can check my own tire pressure !!


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## octopus (Nov 22, 2013)

JDMRoma said:


> the only thing I didn't like about getting the extra set of rims and tires was the TPMS sensors…I didn't bother spending the extra $200 for them….screw it, I can check my own tire pressure !!



they make it sound like you have to buy them, like its against the law or something. my car has them and i didn't get them either for the snow tires.


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## KD7000 (Nov 22, 2013)

JDMRoma said:


> the only thing I didn't like about getting the extra set of rims and tires was the TPMS sensors…I didn't bother spending the extra $200 for them….screw it, I can check my own tire pressure !!


I am currently enjoying a glowing warning light of doom.


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## mlctvt (Nov 22, 2013)

KD7000 said:


> I've had dedicated summer tires and a second set of snow tires/winter wheels on nearly all of my vehicles, ever.  On RWD, FWD, and AWD cars. I consider it mandatory if you want to be able to drive anywhere, anytime regardless of road conditions.




Me too. I've got 16 extra wheels tires on a rack in my garage.  3 sets of snow tires/rims for the cars we drive in winter, the other set is race tires for the Miata that gets garaged in winter. An extra set of wheels/snows is a small investment in the big scheme of things. It amazes me that people spend $35K-40K on a car but balk at spending an extra $800-$1000 on winter wheels /tires.

The added benefit is we can run summer Ultra performance tires Summer only tires in Summer so we get the best of both worlds. I always hated "all season" tires, they're compromise tires, they suck at everything and are good at nothing.


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## andrec10 (Nov 22, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> Me too. I've got 16 extra wheels tires on a rack in my garage.  3 sets of snow tires/rims for the cars we drive in winter, the other set is race tires for the Miata that gets garaged in winter. An extra set of wheels/snows is a small investment in the big scheme of things. It amazes me that people spend $35K-40K on a car but balk at spending an extra $800-$1000 on winter wheels /tires.
> 
> The added benefit is we can run summer Ultra performance tires Summer only tires in Summer so we get the best of both worlds. I always hated "all season" tires, they're compromise tires, they suck at everything and are good at nothing.



Sound just like my setup!


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 23, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Do you guys think it's necessary to mount snowtires on all 4 wheels for a front wheel drive vehicle?  I'm thinking for the few times that I am able to get to the mountains that I can get away with just snows on the front.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



I will echo what has been said a few times already:  FWD vehicles should have snows all around (if at all).  The rear of the vehicle is much more prone to sliding if the tires don't grip as well!   They will tell you this at the shop when you buy them if you try to buy front tires only!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catsup948 (Nov 23, 2013)

Awd and 4wd are always nice to have in the winter. My favorite ski car was my 1996  Toyota Land Cruiser.  Shift from 4 wheel high to low.  Drove through the berkshire east parking lot with snow flying over the hood.  My 2003 Outback was the best highway car for winter.  Snow, ice, slop it drove through all with ease.  I currently have a 2wd car with toyo snows it's not the same but it's pretty good in the snow none the less.  

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## x10003q (Nov 23, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> Me too. I've got 16 extra wheels tires on a rack in my garage.  3 sets of snow tires/rims for the cars we drive in winter, the other set is race tires for the Miata that gets garaged in winter. An extra set of wheels/snows is a small investment in the big scheme of things. It amazes me that people spend $35K-40K on a car but balk at spending an extra $800-$1000 on winter wheels /tires.
> 
> The added benefit is we can run summer Ultra performance tires Summer only tires in Summer so we get the best of both worlds. I always hated "all season" tires, they're compromise tires, they suck at everything and are good at nothing.



You do realize this delusional thought that you need Ultra performance summer only tires is just a way for the tire companies to extract more money from your wallet. I am pretty sure you are  doing the bulk of your driving way below the limits of the tires. The soft compounds get ground up pretty quickly in normal driving. Some versions of these tires are not good in wet weather either.

I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.


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## mister moose (Nov 23, 2013)

podunk77 said:


> I've never had 4WD or snow tires on any car I've owned. I'm a big believer in "keep your speed down in adverse weather conditions and you'll be fine."



Because you have yet to:
■ Try to pull out of a steep uphill road from a dead stop on a snow covered road.
■Hit black ice
■Drive on unplowed roads in 6" or more of snow
■Drive on a day where the snow hit warm pavement created goo and then snowed a few inches on top of that.
■Drive in an area where they don't sand and salt the roads very much, and it snows over 100" a year.


If all you drive is plowed and sanded roads with ocasional forays from a snowy level parking lot to said plowed and sanded road, then you will do fine with all seasons at your slower speed.



x10003q said:


> You do realize this delusional thought that you need Ultra performance summer only tires is just a way for the tire companies to extract more money from your wallet. I am pretty sure you are doing the bulk of your driving way below the limits of the tires. The soft compounds get ground up pretty quickly in normal driving. Some versions of these tires are not good in wet weather either.
> 
> I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.



Right.  Your driving style.  High performance summer tires are for enthusiasts who like to pull more than .2 Gs in a turn, and like the added braking performance.  This of course comes at a steep price.  People who buy snow tires, or HP summer tires for that matter, aren't buying them for "95%" of the time.  They are buying them for the 5% of the time they make that difference, and that difference is substantial.


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## planb420 (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm not gonna say its an absolute deal breaker...but I WILL SAY it was the difference maker that got me out the morning after the Nemo storm into the best pow of my life.


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## KD7000 (Nov 23, 2013)

x10003q said:


> You do realize this delusional thought that you need Ultra performance summer only tires is just a way for the tire companies to extract more money from your wallet.


 I never claimed to need summer tires.  I just like them a lot more, as they make driving more fun.


x10003q said:


> I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.


Honest question: Have you ever lived north of Jersey where there can be snow on the roads during most of winter?

Nobody ever said you can't get by on all-seasons; plenty of people do.  But to deny the advantages of dedicated seasonal tires is somewhat ignorant.  As a relevant comparison, it's like skiing on rental skis vs. skis you chose- ones that are tailored for your abilities and style.


And as far as the money thing goes: I paid less for my recent snow tires than I did for my snowboard!


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## steamboat1 (Nov 23, 2013)

Countless snowy mornings I've seen cars with only front or rear wheel drive that can't make the last incline up to the K-1 lodge from Snowshed/Ramshead & are forced to park at either Ramshead or Snowshed. This is on a road that has been plowed but is still snow covered. While they're fish tailing & spinning there tires I just drive around them with AWD like I was on a dry road. I know on those powder mornings I'd much rather be at K-1 so I could take either the gondi, superstar chair or Snowdon chair to catch those early morning powder runs instead of first having to take the Snowshed or Ramshead chairs to get to them. This alone makes AWD/4WD worth it.


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## x10003q (Nov 23, 2013)

KD7000 said:


> I never claimed to need summer tires.  I just like them a lot more, as they make driving more fun.


Most so called "enthusiasts" (maybe not you) could drive identical cars with summer tires vs  high end all season tires and not tell the difference.



KD7000 said:


> Honest question: Have you ever lived north of Jersey where there can be snow on the roads during most of winter?



I have owned a place at Gore for 25 years.



KD7000 said:


> Nobody ever said you can't get by on all-seasons; plenty of people do.  But to deny the advantages of dedicated seasonal tires is somewhat ignorant.  As a relevant comparison, it's like skiing on rental skis vs. skis you chose- ones that are tailored for your abilities and style.
> 
> 
> And as far as the money thing goes: I paid less for my recent snow tires than I did for my snowboard!



I put snows on my front drive cars. I have never had a problem with my AWD cars and all season tires.


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## goldsbar (Nov 23, 2013)

x10003q said:


> You do realize this delusional thought that you need Ultra performance summer only tires is just a way for the tire companies to extract more money from your wallet. I am pretty sure you are  doing the bulk of your driving way below the limits of the tires. The soft compounds get ground up pretty quickly in normal driving. Some versions of these tires are not good in wet weather either.
> 
> I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.



Yes!  Thank you.  I've had summer tires (came with car) and don't understand the obsession.  Performance all seasons are really, really good these days.  Sure, summer tires grip a little better.  They can also let go really fast while all seasons can be more progressive and more fun to drive for those of us - meaning just about all of us despite what we think - who don't have pro driver skills.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 23, 2013)

For summer I usually use skinnies up front and slicks in the rear...


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## JDMRoma (Nov 23, 2013)

My only obsession is I want Dedicated Snows on my AWD in Winter….but hey thats my dime, when my stock summer 17 inch tires wear out I will go with a Rain tire, something like my last Michelin Hydro edges….passed down to my daughter on my last car. I drive 100 miles a day, rain tires really help cutting through the deep puddles on 128 in those flash floods ! So with 2 sets, I get the best of both seasons……F it its only money !


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## mlctvt (Nov 24, 2013)

x10003q said:


> You do realize this delusional thought that you need Ultra performance summer only tires is just a way for the tire companies to extract more money from your wallet. I am pretty sure you are  doing the bulk of your driving way below the limits of the tires. The soft compounds get ground up pretty quickly in normal driving. Some versions of these tires are not good in wet weather either.
> 
> I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.



I used to be a performance driving instructor so I like the feel of the road; I'm willing so send a few extra bucks to have the best tire I can get for my car. I probably drive a bit more aggressive than the normal driver. Plus I can go to Autocrosses and not have to change tires to full race rubber like I used to. My summer only tires are the best tires I've ever driven in the rain. 
If you enjoy your compromise tire that’s great, they're not for me until I buy a minivan. 

And yes I can definitely tell the difference between tire types.

To put this into terms that non drivers may understand-
What you're saying about tires is like saying "Nobody needs a race ski ,all skis will get you down the hill so there's no need for anything except a basic ski" Same for ski boots- All boots hold your foot,  so who needs a siff race boot?? ...etc etc.


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## Domeskier (Nov 24, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> I'm willing so send a few extra bucks to have the best tire I can get for my car. I probably drive a bit more aggressive than the normal driver. Plus I can go to Autocrosses and not have to change tires to full race rubber like I used to. My summer only tires are the best tires I've ever driven in the rain.
> If you enjoy your compromise tire that’s great, they're not for me until I buy a minivan.
> 
> And yes I can definitely tell the difference between tire types.



They are great for hitting tunaspeed on the interstate.  If there is on thing I think we need more of, it is overconfident aggressive drivers on our highways.


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## bobbutts (Nov 24, 2013)

One major reason around here to have awd and/or snows is the last mile, or for me more accurately last few hundred yards.  I live on a hill and watch many cars unable to get up during the worst storms.  It stinks to be unable to reach your own house with any regularity.  When I lived on Ski Run BLVD in South Lake Tahoe and had FWD/Old All Seasons I'd have to park and walk the last stretch several times per season... Terrible..  Once I was able to afford it, I got AWD and never looked back.

For snow tires or not debate, having better braking performance/traction for roughly $500-$1000 is a pretty hard to argue against.  It's safer and feels better.  One of the best deals available in the auto market IMO.


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## The Sneak (Nov 24, 2013)

mlctvt are you still instructing or a/xing? What are you driving?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2013)

ALLSKIING said:


> My tires were worn out on my jeep this fall and* I decided to go with a good set of all terrain tires instead of the snow tires *since I did not want to deal with changing them every fall and spring.



Did the same thing this year.   

Just put on some _aggressive_ ATT last month, and I imagine they'll be fantastic with my 4WD.  Frankly I've never had a problem with All-Season tires on a 4WD, so I can only imagine ATT will be that much better this winter.



x10003q said:


> *I have been running all seasons on my awd cars for over 20 years without any problems. The all seasons are better than snows for 95% of my driving in the winter and during the summer they work fine for my driving style.*



I pretty much agree with this, and I used to live in n.VT.  Never had a problem with good all-season tires on a 4WD SUV, and trust me, they saw PLENTY of the Vermont mountains in winter!


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## Big Game (Nov 24, 2013)

AWD + snows = ability to make a parking spot on a pile of snow. 

The larger point, driving into known snowy conditions, with a whole bunch of investments on the line, miles from your home, in frigid temps, I know what I'm going to do.  Also, blowing past freds turned around in Putney also makes me feel good inside. Maybe that's because I'm a dick.


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## mlctvt (Nov 24, 2013)

The Sneak
I'm not active in autocross much now. I used to run with Renegade Miata club(MA), SCCA, Cart (CT), and Fairfield County sports car club. It was getting to the point wheere I was spending almost every Sunday from April to Sept at an event. I stopped about 5 years ago so I could get back into road cycling. Sundays are out long distance days. I still go to events occasionally. 
My wife also used to autocross, she was very competitive too.

I've still got my '99 miata but we sold the '91 Toyota MR2 that my wife and I used to autocross. We also Have a modified WRX (wifes daily driver) and modified Legacy GT(my daily driver). All three cars wear summer tires in summer, the two Subarus run snow tires and the Miata is garaged in winter.

We also have a Honda Element - got snows for that one too.They make a terrible handling vehicle even worse


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## xwhaler (Nov 24, 2013)

We have 2 vehicles for ski trips.   When with the family we take our Kia Sorento AWD with new all season Firestone LE2 tires.   Haven't used them in the snow yet but reviews were very good on TireRack for an all season.   
When I'm solo I take my 4 x 4 Toyota Tacoma with Firestone ATs and can get through just about anything.

Sent from my VS980 4G using AlpineZone mobile app


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## x10003q (Nov 24, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> I used to be a performance driving instructor so I like the feel of the road; I'm willing so send a few extra bucks to have the best tire I can get for my car. I probably drive a bit more aggressive than the normal driver. Plus I can go to Autocrosses and not have to change tires to full race rubber like I used to. My summer only tires are the best tires I've ever driven in the rain.
> If you enjoy your compromise tire that’s great, they're not for me until I buy a minivan.
> 
> And yes I can definitely tell the difference between tire types.



I should have included the autocrossers. I don't doubt you can tell. 

I do maintain that the vast majority of us really cannot tell the difference between summer and all season tires. There are very few places on public roads out there to legally explore the limits. Think of all the commuters jammed on the roads at rush hour. Where are you supposedly using the extra performance? The occasional empty highway ramp?  



mlctvt said:


> To put this into terms that non drivers may understand-
> What you're saying about tires is like saying "Nobody needs a race ski ,all skis will get you down the hill so there's no need for anything except a basic ski" Same for ski boots- All boots hold your foot,  so who needs a siff race boot?? ...etc etc.


Your ski analogy makes no sense. 

 I would be interested if you can show the reasons why summer tires are better than the a/s tires when we are both going 65 mph on the highway or 45mph on the local 2 lane or 25 mph on my street.


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## Cannonball (Nov 24, 2013)

Drove over the Kanc 3 times this weekend.  5am Saturday: sheer, glaze ice, could barely even walk from my front door to my driveway. 9pm Saturday: blowing snow, 10' visibility, only car on road, no plows, no sand, no salt, absolute white-knuckle.  5am Sunday: chunky mix of snow and ice.   Would never have survived any of those trips with 2WD, and honestly was stupid to make any of those trips at all.  But Subaru handled it well.   For me AWD is a must have.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Philpug (Nov 24, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> No. Snow tires are more important than AWD or 4WD. Of course, both snows and AWD trump all... but it is completely unnecessary. Maybe one or two days an entire winter I think "that would have been a little easier with AWD in addition to snows" but I have never found myself overly inconvenienced due to the lack of AWD so I say it is not a high priority on what is important in a vehicle.



So true.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 25, 2013)

Philpug said:


> So true.



Not really.  And not born out by the testing I've seen.

The brutal truth is that the _"snow tires are way more important than 4WD" _mantra is nearly universally uttered by individuals who do not currently own a 4WD vehicle (Somebody had to finally say it, because it's not like a ton of people in this thread arent thinking it).


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## Gilligan (Nov 25, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not really.  And not born out by the testing I've seen.
> 
> The brutal truth is that the _"snow tires are way more important than 4WD" _mantra is nearly universally uttered by individuals who do not currently own a 4WD vehicle (Somebody had to finally say it, because it's not like a ton of people in this thread arent thinking it).


Yes, really.

I used to own a FWD vehicle and now own an AWD vehicle. I used to drive it with all-seasons and I was disappointed in its performance in the harshest conditions - ice, heavy wet snow, etc. I switched to snow tires and the difference was amazing. Much more of a difference than when I first switched to AWD.

Snow tires help you go, stop, and corner. 4WD/AWD only helps you go. That is the brutal truth.


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## mlctvt (Nov 25, 2013)

Road & track did a test of cars that were offered in both 2wd and AWD, they fitted snow tires to the 2wd versions and kept the All-season tires on the AWD versions. In all cases the 2WD with snows out performed the AWD with all-season tires in snow adn ice conditions. Tires are the most important for winter conditions not the number of wheels driven. 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/car-comparison-tests/page-10---all-wheel-drive-sport-sedans
from the article
"Second, and a related question, "Which is better, one of our awd competitors on  all-season tires, or its front- or rear-drive counterpart on dedicated summer or  winter rubber?" Summer is a close call; but winter isn't. All-wheel drive has  its benefits in the snow, but not the 28-30 percent offered by dedicated snow  tires. And awd won't help at all when it comes to stopping in snow. "


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## ScottySkis (Nov 25, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> Road & track did a test of cars that were offered in both 2wd and AWD, they fitted snow tires to the 2wd versions and kept the All-season tires on the AWD versions. In all cases the 2WD with snows out performed the AWD with all-season tires in snow adn ice conditions. Tires are the most important for winter conditions not the number of wheels driven.
> 
> http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/car-comparison-tests/page-10---all-wheel-drive-sport-sedans




Well just got my first set of snow tires ever so I will sure find out soon hopefully.


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## C-Rex (Nov 25, 2013)

This has turned into an argument between conservative, practical people and people who allow a little more passion into their lives.  Both groups will never be able to make the other see their side, so why try?  Different strokes and all that, right? Just don't knock someone's way of seeing things just because its not the same as your view. 

Point is AWD with snows IS the best way to go. Whether its necessary or not depends on where and how you drive, the type of road conditions you're willing to take on, and your willingness to deal with getting stuck.  No, AWD will not make you invincible. The ability to go has little to do with how you turn and nothing to do with how you stop.  

All I know is when I'm in a buried parking lot, I often see guys in FWD cars with snows struggling to dig themselves out. And I see their faces when I hop in my car and back right out with no digging. Sure, those guys will get where they're going eventually, but I'd rather do it with ease. 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## El Bishop (Nov 25, 2013)

Next question:  When do you put snows on?  I live in Boston but plan to be driving to VT almost every weekend between now and Spring.  Car doesn't get driven much during the week so is now the time to put them on?  Thanks


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## KD7000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Last weekend.  You're late!


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## WWF-VT (Nov 25, 2013)

El Bishop said:


> Next question:  When do you put snows on?  I live in Boston but plan to be driving to VT almost every weekend between now and Spring.  Car doesn't get driven much during the week so is now the time to put them on?  Thanks



I put them on first week of December but wished I had done it last week.  I have an AWD vehicle and drove in a white out on Saturday night and a snow covered roads to the mountain on Sunday.


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## Cheese (Nov 25, 2013)

El Bishop said:


> Next question:  When do you put snows on?  I live in Boston but plan to be driving to VT almost every weekend between now and Spring.  Car doesn't get driven much during the week so is now the time to put them on?  Thanks



To get the most tread life possible out of your snows, wait till the temps are consistently at or below 45ºF.

3
2
1
Let the disagreements begin ...


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## hammer (Nov 25, 2013)

This all has me thinking a lot about getting snows for my daughter's Ford Focus...she doesn't drive far but the current tires are so-so on dry pavement as it is.


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 25, 2013)

Cheese said:


> To get the most tread life possible out of your snows, wait till the temps are consistently at or below 45ºF.
> 
> 3
> 2
> ...



Guy who works for me runs his snows year round. Says they are far supior to regular tires, and that there is no difference to the life of the tire....
(I dont listen to him)

Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2


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## Gilligan (Nov 25, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> All I know is when I'm in a buried parking lot, I often see guys in FWD cars with snows struggling to dig themselves out. And I see their faces when I hop in my car and back right out with no digging. Sure, those guys will get where they're going eventually, but I'd rather do it with ease.


Are you sure that look is "I am so envious of his 4WD" and not "I cannot believe that guy just drove away and left me stuck here" ?


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## dmc (Nov 25, 2013)

Gilligan said:


> Are you sure that look is "I am so envious of his 4WD" and not "I cannot believe that guy just drove away and left me stuck here" ?



I've come back to the airport after work travel to find my car buried in snow in the parking lot..
I keep an avi shovel in my car...  But most times I just blast right out of the snow..


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## mister moose (Nov 25, 2013)

A few more things should be added here.

All tires aren't equal.  All season tire A will be different in snow than all season tire B.  The highest rated in snow all season will produce an owner that feels stronger than one that has all seasons that are lousy in snow.  (Not saying they will ever replace snow tires)

As was mentioned earlier, low profile tires give 2 strikes against you right out of the box.  AWD like an Audi S4 doesn't mean didly in the snow if you're on 40 series 'all season' touring tires.  Get into AWD on 75 series tires and the difference in snow traction is large, the difference between move or not move.

Driving skill is part of the equation.  I wouldn't doubt that 9 times out of 10 a skilled driver in FWD will not get stuck or go off the road where the less skilled driver will in AWD.  If you don't understand the difference between static and kinetic friction, and can't apply that to your driving when the wheels start to let go, you won't have as good an outcome as the driver that can.  Understanding momentum management is key as well.

And of course the roads and conditions we drive frequently aren't the same.

These variables lead to differences in opinion, but really part of what is going on is unequal equipment and experience.


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## C-Rex (Nov 25, 2013)

Gilligan said:


> Are you sure that look is "I am so envious of his 4WD" and not "I cannot believe that guy just drove away and left me stuck here" ?



Positive. He was digging his car out and, like an A-hole, had thrown a bunch of the snow behind my car. Typical self-centered, Jersey d-bag. The look was more like, " I can't believe I spent the last 20 minutes digging and he just got in and drove away."  

I hate when people try to drive in conditions that their car has no business being in.  They're the same schmucks that say FWD will get you there just fine when in reality they struggled up every hill with a line of properly kitted cars pissed off behind them, and almost slid through every intersection.  Just because you can make it work, doesn't mean you should.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## dmc (Nov 25, 2013)

One of the best things you can do to get good at driving in the snow - is to know when to NOT drive in the snow and just wait..


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## x10003q (Nov 25, 2013)

dmc said:


> One of the best things you can do to get good at driving in the snow - is to know when to NOT drive in the snow and just wait..



Smartest post in the thread.


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## mlctvt (Nov 25, 2013)

I posted some scientific proof earlier, here is another article although a bit old that comes to the exact same solution. Testing of AWD with all season vs 2wd with snow tires. 
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction

conclusion reads
"Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.  Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.  
Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.  
And finally, unless snow or ice covers your roads many times in a winter, the snow benefits of winter tires may not outweigh their drawbacks on dry pavement. "

Since skiers need to go up hills to get the mountains C-Rex is right AWD with Snow tires is the best option.

One thing I've seen is most people over estimate their driving skills. Most drivers think they're far better drivers than they actually are. Your first day at an Autcocross, skid pad car control clinic, or a track day can be a very humbling experience.


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## The Sneak (Nov 25, 2013)

mlvct thanks for the details on autocross. my father has an NB Miata w/ltd slip. It's getting some fresh suspension this winter (FCM stops, bilsteins etc). I think  I might have to borrow it more often and try my hand at a/x....


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## AdironRider (Nov 25, 2013)

Im doing a bit of an experiment this year. Got rid of the POS Subaru Forester (wife has stolen the keys to FJ it looks like permanently) and will be rocking an 87 BMW 325 all winter this year. Got the studs on in back and going to give it hell this winter, will update with the guaranteed ensuing hilarity as I promptly wrap this into a snowbank.


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## dmc (Nov 26, 2013)




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## ScottySkis (Nov 26, 2013)

dmc said:


> View attachment 9620



Hebrew National is better.


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## billski (Nov 26, 2013)

Why do they tell you to put the newest snow tires (I use 4) on the rear of a front wheel drive vehicle?


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## Cheese (Nov 26, 2013)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Guy who works for me runs his snows year round. Says they are far supior to regular tires, and that there is no difference to the life of the tire....
> (I dont listen to him)
> 
> Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2



Best tire advice I ever got was

Traction
Tread life
Quiet ride

Pick any 2


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2013)

If the New Hampshire Highway Department is going to be asleep and not at the wheel so badly like they were this morning, I'm almost in favor of mandating snow tires on vehicles during winter.

In 22 years of driving, never have I seen such piss poor performance by a Highway Department.  It took 55 minutes to travel 6 miles on 101.  Cars and trucks off the road left and right, following less than an inch of snow.  Wasn't a salt truck to be found.  It was comical.  It reminded me of watching TV footage of snowstorms in Georgia and how ill-prepared the South is at dealing with snow.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 26, 2013)

dmc said:


> View attachment 9620


According to Wikipedia, the last time one of those went off the road in a snowstorm was 2008  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wienermobile


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 26, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> If the New Hampshire Highway Department is going to be asleep and not at the wheel so badly like they were this morning, I'm almost in favor of mandating snow tires on vehicles during winter.
> 
> In 22 years of driving, never have I seen such piss poor performance by a Highway Department.  It took 55 minutes to travel 6 miles on 101.  Cars and trucks off the road left and right, following less than an inch of snow.  Wasn't a salt truck to be found.  It was comical.  It reminded me of watching TV footage of snowstorms in Georgia and how ill-prepared the South is at dealing with snow.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Vermont seems to have been doing the same thing the last few years for the first snowstorm/slippery road event (e.g. last weekend on I-89). It is almost like they are trying to remind the public to slow down.


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## dmc (Nov 26, 2013)

Those Wiener Mobile drivers think they are immune to everything...
The false sense of security is ridiculous...


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## AdironRider (Nov 26, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Vermont seems to have been doing the same thing the last few years for the first snowstorm/slippery road event (e.g. last weekend on I-89). It is almost like they are trying to remind the public to slow down.



My pops oversees plowing for the city of Nashua, (well maybe that was the problem, he was still recouping from a quintuple bypass and isn't on duty currently) but he did mention a couple things. Due to union regs as well as some other things (NIMBYS who don't want to hear the plows, maintenance practices, asphalt preservation, etc a myriad of different things), plowing only operates usually on a schedule. They cant just run passes everywhere so its clear. Also, no matter what they do, its always a shitshow on the first real storm. Its not a result of plowing, people just don't drive like they should on the first snowy day. So ultimately, its a three way reason on the plowing side, no previous salt or sand being laid down, union regulations on shifts and driving time, and maintenance of the roadways and vehicles that ultimate causes the problem. And the major, and ultimate cause, shitty driving. For one inch of snow, the plows will do more damage to the road than is ultimately warranted.


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## ScottySkis (Nov 26, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Vermont seems to have been doing the same thing the last few years for the first snowstorm/slippery road event (e.g. last weekend on I-89). It is almost like they are trying to remind the public to slow down.



I think their trying to save money but when majority of tourism is skiing doesn't make sense to not clear the highways.


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## AdironRider (Nov 26, 2013)

If you think the ski industry has any part of the decision of whether to plow or not you are delusional. Remember last year during the biggest storm of the year (aka the best ski weekend of the year) they made it illegal to drive.


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## billski (Nov 26, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> If the New Hampshire Highway Department is going to be asleep and not at the wheel so badly like they were this morning, I'm almost in favor of mandating snow tires on vehicles during winter.
> 
> In 22 years of driving, never have I seen such piss poor performance by a Highway Department.



Now wait a minute. I'll give you the highway department's failings, but there's enough blame to spread around everywhere.   You know of course that the first snow of the season always generates a circus of driving performance regardless of road conditions.   Everything from the panicking the white-knuckle driver to the fearless yahoo who must demonstrate his driving prowess to all who will watch. 
Pull up a window seat at Dunkin' Donuts, grab a muffin and watch the show.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2013)

billski said:


> Now wait a minute. I'll give you the highway department's failings, but there's enough blame to spread around everywhere.   You know of course that the first snow of the season always generates a circus of driving performance regardless of road conditions.   Everything from the panicking the white-knuckle driver to the fearless yahoo who must demonstrate his driving prowess to all who will watch.
> Pull up a window seat at Dunkin' Donuts, grab a muffin and watch the show.



Bill,

101 was really slick.  It was almost black ice conditions.  Even mid-winter seasoned drivers would've struggled going over 30 in spots.  Salt was needed.  No plowing, just the most minuscule amount of salt and things would've been fine.  Like I said; I've been driving for 22 years now and I've never seen anything like it.  The Highway Department wasn't prepared or simply chose not to act.  They need to be prepared for small squalls like this to just go out before it arrives and lay down a bit of salt to prevent the precipitation from sticking.  It was almost like they were gambling that the temp warm up enough for the precipitation to fall as rain. Their decision to not to do anything only created more work for everyone else (police, emergency workers, etc.) and massive frustration for anyone else on the road.


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## Cornhead (Nov 26, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> If you think the ski industry has any part of the decision of whether to plow or not you are delusional. Remember last year during the biggest storm of the year (aka the best ski weekend of the year) they made it illegal to drive.



Sure made for one great uncrowded powder day a da Loaf. Sometimes you find yourself in the right place at the right time.


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## AdironRider (Nov 26, 2013)

Cornhead said:


> Sure made for one great uncrowded powder day a da Loaf. Sometimes you find yourself in the right place at the right time.



No doubt. If I was there Id have driven anyways. Also, is this Deadheads "get off my lawn" moment where he becomes the old guy lamenting the days of yore?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2013)

no more so than is this the moment you actually become funny with your bad ass internet persona


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## AdironRider (Nov 26, 2013)

So a yes then.


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## ScottySkis (Nov 26, 2013)

We need skiing and snowboarding on real snow soon.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2013)

in your mind champ......in your mind

((((it's okay)))))


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## ScottySkis (Nov 26, 2013)

First winter driving on road home tonight in snow and ice very very happy I got snow tires, now if I could figure out how to fix defoster on windshield with freezing to death.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 26, 2013)

Scotty said:


> First winter driving on road home tonight in snow and ice very very happy I got snow tires, now if I could figure out how to fix defoster on windshield with freezing to death.



Probably your thermostat. It's relatively inexpensive to replace.

Either that or you need to shut off the AC.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 26, 2013)

Scotty said:


> First winter driving on road home tonight in snow and ice very very happy I got snow tires, now if I could figure out how to fix defoster on windshield with freezing to death.



What..you have no heat


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## Cornhead (Nov 27, 2013)

Heat, and a working windshield washer sprayer, are highly overrated for Winter driving.  Have you tried running the heat and ac together? Seemed to work for me for the two hours I drove your car. You've got something weird going on, you shouldn't need the ac on to defog your windshield. It did fog up for me when I tried just heat without the ac. There must be moister entering the system somehow, heater core leak? You would think you'd smell coolant if this were true, unless there's just water, or very little antifreeze, in your cooling system. You'll find that out soon enough.


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## El Bishop (Dec 5, 2013)

Here's a question:  anyone ever have a flat tire with snowtires and then have to put the donut on?  How does that handle?


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## KD7000 (Dec 5, 2013)

El Bishop said:


> Here's a question:  anyone ever have a flat tire with snowtires and then have to put the donut on?


Interestingly, this is an unanticipated benefit of having a second set of seasonal wheels and tires.  On more than one occasion, I've used one of my idle wheel/tires as a spare, so I didn't have to run an undersize donut for any amount of time other than the ride home.


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## bigbog (Dec 6, 2013)

In place of the stock, light jacks...the heavy, hydraulic, high-lift jacks double as added weight...put over the rear axle in the winter.  No need for adding cinder blocks...etc.
Oh yeah...a regular sized wheel/tire saves the day when needed...


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## ScottySkis (Dec 9, 2013)

An inch of ice this morning were I live. My snow tires went through the ice no problem. If had my season tires on I am sure I be sitting on a local road waiting AAA to come. Best thing I did for me and my car was get snow tires.


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## bigbog (Dec 9, 2013)

Cornhead said:


> Sure made for one great uncrowded powder day a da Loaf. Sometimes you find yourself in the right place at the right time.


What HAS to happen is for barriers to #16(Kingfield to Stratton) to be put up...prohibiting travel from CVA to the mountain, prior to noontime, on a day of 12"+ of new snow...:-D.
Horrible damage done to a race ski's base on a pow day....
____________________
TO THE SUBJECT:
Think the snowtire tread under the weight of the engine is the essential thing.....


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## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2013)

My truck tires are snow and mud (S&M sounds kind fun). Never had any issue but without 4wd my truck would be useless.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 9, 2013)

Gotta put the snows on my Subi some time soon. Haven't had need for them yet on my two trips to VT. but hopefully that will change. Just beat the snow last night driving down. It didn't start snowing until I hit NYC & even then there was no accumulation yet.


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## billski (Dec 9, 2013)

snows went on my family fleet over Thanksgiving weekend.  That's the plan in the flatlands.


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## C-Rex (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm still debating whether to buy snows for my WRX.  I'd rather not spend the money, but if the all-seasons aren't going to cut it in heavy snow, I will not let them stop me from getting to the mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2013)

The way I see it, buying snows simply prolongs the life of my summer tires.  I don't feel like I spend considerably more on tires over the life of a vehicle by buying snows vs only buying all seasons.


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## billski (Dec 10, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> I'm still debating whether to buy snows for my WRX.  I'd rather not spend the money, but if the all-seasons aren't going to cut it in heavy snow, I will not let them stop me from getting to the mountain.



Many people forget that snows do more than give you traction in the snow.  They are generally made of a softer rubber, which makes slippery surfaces more navigable and the driver more comfortable.   Because of the soft rubber, they wear out sooner than summer tires.  Most people claim to get about 20-30K miles on a set of snows.  Seems to be about what we are getting.


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## C-Rex (Dec 10, 2013)

Oh, I know all about the advantages. Its just a want verses need thing. I don't want to spend $600-800 if I can get by without them. Even if I don't this year I will by next season.


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## billski (Dec 10, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> Oh, I know all about the advantages. Its just a want verses need thing. I don't want to spend $600-800 if I can get by without them. Even if I don't this year I will by next season.


  I went without snows for 20 years.  Then I started driving during storms to get to the pow, and up slippery steep roads.   If you're only going to be on the highways that are clear and salted, a good rain rated tire will be good.  Just don't go too early before the roads are treated.  Access roads are generally well taken care of but if the resort is quite a distance off the main highway, you'll just have to go a bit slower.


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## Edd (Dec 10, 2013)

I've been driving Subarus for the last 10 years with all seasons. Many ski trips and storms and I've never gotten stuck or had to turn around. 

My current Forester tracks better than my old Legacy wagon, I think because of the stability/traction control or whatever it has. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Dec 10, 2013)

You don't absolutely need snow tires on a Subi. I drove several years without them & never got stuck either. I did slip & slide a little on occasion but that's about it. AWD is pretty good at keeping you moving forward with or without snows. Where you will see a major difference is in is in your cornering ability. I've seen plenty of Subi's in a ditch off the side of the road in a snowstorm. Bet you the majority of them didn't have snow tires. Another important advantage of snows is your ability to make sudden stops in snow. When you see that guy in front of you start fish tailing all over the road it's a comfortable feeling when you hit the brakes & can stop without going into a skid. I worry more about the guy behind me being able to stop. Like DHS said in the long run it really doesn't cost much extra because you'll get twice the life out of both sets of tires. Where it does cost more is having to remount tires twice a year. I've been lucky so far because I bought both sets of tires from the same dealer & so far he has remounted my tires free of charge. I don't think he'll do that forever unless I buy another set of tires from him.


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## C-Rex (Dec 10, 2013)

Also, remounting tires over and over isn't a good idea if it can be avoided.  You can damage the bead and sidewall making them leak air or possibly go out of round.  This is more common with lower profile tires with stiff sidewalls but still something to think about.

I know a bunch of you will say you've remounted tires all your life and never had a problem.  Good for you, but it does happen.  And if you drive an AWD car you can't just replace one if the others are worn.  The difference in diameter will cause stress to your center differential and can lead to problems.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2013)

I have my snows on a dedicated set of basic steel rims.  No need for remounting.  If I were so inclined, I could swap the summer and winter tires out for free on my own, but I'm lazy and just have my mechanic do it along with an oil change in the fall and spring for $20; same amount he charges for a tire a rotation.


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## Brad J (Dec 10, 2013)

I have used my 2005 Mustang with 4 snow tires since it was new, driven in countless snow storms and have had no problems , I drive up to wildcat  on those storm days. I just use common sense, I have two wheeled steering and 4 wheel breaks just like awd or 4wd


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2013)

Got to test the ATT tires (tread sortof between all-season and snows) on 3" of fresh snow this morning and was pretty impressed.  I think I'm gonna like them.  Never had a problem with 4WD and all-seasons, but with all the time I spend in the mountains in winter I figured I'd go with a more aggressive tread, but I didnt want snows.


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## Hawkshot99 (Dec 10, 2013)

Driver skill in the snow is a even bigger deal than tires or drive system.
When I was younger every time it snowed I had alot of fun playing in snowy parking lots. 
At the time it was just for fun. Now when out driving on the road and the vehicle starts to slide or something it can be second nature to correct the vehicles action.
Way to many of the veicles you see stranded are over equiped for the conditions, yet they still struggle.

My 4wd truck with good AT tires doesnt hurt either!

Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2


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## Mullen (Dec 11, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Got to test the ATT tires (tread sortof between all-season and snows) on 3" of fresh snow this morning and was pretty impressed.  I think I'm gonna like them.  Never had a problem with 4WD and all-seasons, but with all the time I spend in the mountains in winter I figured I'd go with a more aggressive tread, but I didnt want snows.



Which ones do you have specifically?  Looking to get some like that for my Tacoma


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## buellski (Dec 11, 2013)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Driver skill in the snow is a even bigger deal than tires or drive system.
> When I was younger every time it snowed I had alot of fun playing in snowy parking lots.
> At the time it was just for fun. Now when out driving on the road and the vehicle starts to slide or something it can be second nature to correct the vehicles action.
> Way to many of the veicles you see stranded are over equiped for the conditions, yet they still struggle.



+1

I had a 2WD Nissan pickup with sandbags over the axles to help.  Any time there was a big storm, I was in a parking lot, hitting the brakes hard, doing donuts, breaking the back end loose on turns, etc.  Like you said, now dealing with a sliding vehicle is second nature. I think driving schools should make it part of their curriculum. In all honesty, about the only time I use 4WD in my Jeep is when I take it offroad.


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## vermonter44 (Dec 11, 2013)

My first car was a Subaru outback which had AWD and I would put snow tires on. Never had any problems.

My current vehicle is a Ford F150 with 4WD and I also put snow tires in. Never had any problems there either.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2013)

Mullen said:


> Which ones do you have specifically?  Looking to get some like that for my Tacoma



Hankook DynaPro ATM

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...0731!&ef_id=UkuSvgAABdEE4G4-:20131212010902:s


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