# Vermont Likely to Close 3 State Colleges



## Zand (Apr 17, 2020)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/V...tem-likely-to-close-3-campuses-569727971.html

As an LSC alum, just a sad day but it's well known that Vermont doesn't give a shit about supporting secondary education so I can't say I'm surprised either.

Have to imagine this would be another blow to Burke who can't take many more blows.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 17, 2020)

think we see more of this throughout the country


----------



## jimk (Apr 17, 2020)

Do you think the massive adoption of online instruction during covid is a harbinger for more closures like this?


----------



## slatham (Apr 17, 2020)

This on top of 3 other colleges deciding to close in past year. 

As a weather buff, Lyndon State is legendary. Terrible to close.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 17, 2020)

It's definitely a huge blow to the community.  The state had been moving in this direction for a couple of years now.  COVID-19 gave them the excuse that they needed.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 17, 2020)

jimk said:


> Do you think the massive adoption of online instruction during covid is a harbinger for more closures like this?



Not sure about College . Yes to grade schools  but I'm  not sure if it will morph into some type of hybrid? Teachers unions have been fighting Charter schools for a long time now it seems they might be competing against them online .It's not a problem for people who have chosen to home school already but  I'm not sure how parents who work will end up dealing with the new reality . 

It would be nice not to have to support large buildings and all the cost associated with busing .


----------



## gladerider (Apr 17, 2020)

jimk said:


> Do you think the massive adoption of online instruction during covid is a harbinger for more closures like this?



may be.

i think the reason why we see such closures now is more to do with economics than anything else. some of these schools and organizations around the country are too much in debt that they can't service.

if i understand correctly, i think what you are asking is do online education push kids to take cheaper online classes over brick and mortar schools in general? i think it would be for some majors but not all. some specialized majors do require onsite instruction like doctors, nurses, chemistry, physics ant d engineering that require in person experiences. but i can see liberal arts schools withering away.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2020)

UVM has an endowment of $460M.  The state colleges say they're closing campuses because of a $7-10m deficit.  Seems to me it would be a wise investment for UVM to disperse some of their endowment to these schools to keep them up and running.  These campus closures are potentially cutting off some future grad students for them.  

I shudder to think of what will become of Johnson and Lyndonville if these campuses close.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Zand (Apr 17, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> UVM has an endowment of $460M.  The state colleges say they're closing campuses because of a $7-10m deficit.  Seems to me it would be a wise investment for UVM to disperse some of their endowment to these schools to keep them up and running.  These campus closures are potentially cutting off some future grad students for them.
> 
> I shudder to think of what will become of Johnson and Lyndonville if these campuses close.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/uvm-asks-state-for-millions-in-relief-due-to-covid-19-stresses/

That endowment isn't enough apparently. Such a joke.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2020)

Zand said:


> https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/uvm-asks-state-for-millions-in-relief-due-to-covid-19-stresses/
> 
> That endowment isn't enough apparently. Such a joke.


Pretty disgusting they are asking for that kind of relief or really any relief while state colleges are announcing closure.  

As a class of 2000 UVM alum, I'm immensely disappointed to read that.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2020)

jimk said:


> Do you think the massive adoption of online instruction during covid is a harbinger for more closures like this?



No.  It's complete mismangement by those at the top.  Like with what we saw from the EB-5 fiasco, it's never the fault of those in charge.  They don't lose their jobs.  They just get shuffled to other positions and continue with the incompetence.  

Anyone who saw WCAX tonight saw that the Chancellor was grinning as he was going on about how hard this will be for everyone.  Even though he wants us to believe that COVOD-19 was the "crisis" that ended things, his last comments were particularly revealing--"oh, we budgeted money to maintain the physical buildings of the campuses for next year."  You don't make that decision overnight.  

I am fired up.  It's my hometown.  Those are my friends, their kids, and their families who go to school there and work there.  In 20 years we've lost about 500-1,000 manufacturing jobs.  LSC has about 300 or so employees.  The $2 Billion in aid to the State meant to prevent these kinds of disruptions mysteriously is not available for LSC.  Instead, we have a guy grinning as he waxes poetic about how hard it is to end schooling for 2,000 students and lay off 500 employees in this economy before he continues to keep his six-figure job.  Winning.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2020)

I see a whole lot of complaining, but no real solutions being offered.  

Let me say at the outset that, as someone who lives in the NEK, I recognize how devastating this will be for the local community.  We aren't just losing jobs.  We are losing all of the money that students spend in the community.  We are losing the resources that the college provides to local schools and institutions.  This is going to be a very heavy loss.  But let's be honest, LSC is not sustainable the way it is currently operating.  If people really cared about keeping the school open, they should have recognized that years ago when enrollment starting sliding.

First and foremost, the tuition is too high.  Non-resident tuition is $25,680.  Room, board and fees are another $13,106.  The school doesn't have much to offer in terms of financial assistance.  Plymouth State has set non-resident tuition at $22,769.  That may not seem like a big difference, but when you are a student taking on loans, that $3,000 difference matters.  There is also the question of whether or not LSC's tuition is worth it - even if you can afford it.  

It is absurd to suggest that UVM's endowment should be used to fund the money-losing state colleges.  UVM gets very little support from the state, just like the state colleges.  Yet UVM has managed to do things right.  Why should they be punished because they made the correct decisions?  Quite the opposite.  They should be rewarded.  If the colleges marked for closure each burn through $10 million a year, UVM's endowment is going to get eaten up pretty quickly.

I'm going to be blunt.  Other than finding a way to keep tuition lower, which the faculty unions would have prevented, I am not sure that there was much left that LSC could do.  They tried different programs.  They tried online learning.  If anything, LSC has really tried.  But the demographics are what they are.  There is a reason why so many colleges are closing, especially in Vermont.  They all didn't just happen to get bad management in the past couple of years.  A knee-jerk reaction of blaming this all on bad management is a lazy approach to the problem.

The simple truth is that the only way for the college to survive is for faculty and staff to take pay cuts and for budgets to be gone over with a fine tooth comb.  Because the only way for the college to survive is to charge a low enough tuition that you can market the college on that basis alone.  But have you seen the unions offer concessions?  Absolutely not.  And don't hold your breath.  Right now, other than their meteorology program, there is really nothing that sets LSC out from the crowd.  Affordable tuition could change that equation overnight.

This may all seem harsh, but if you really want to see the college survive, you need to be honest about the hard decisions that need to be made.  Asking for more of the same failing model isn't a long term solution.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2020)

I don't disagree that reorganization and major cost cutting needs to happen at Johnson and Lyndon.  All I'm saying is the state's higher education system really needs to be looked at from a system level; not there's UVM and there's everyone else.  Maybe consolidate and reduce one of the two schools down to a low cost two year program that feeds the remaining four year schools.   Recognizing the expense of our four year schools, NH has done a good job at that.  Most of the community colleges have credits fully transferable to the state universities now.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't disagree that reorganization and major cost cutting needs to happen at Johnson and Lyndon.  All I'm saying is the state's higher education system really needs to be looked at from a system level; not there's UVM and there's everyone else.  Maybe consolidate and reduce one of the two schools down to a low cost two year program that feeds the remaining four year schools.   Recognizing the expense of our four year schools, NH has done a good job at that.  Most of the community colleges have credits fully transferable to the state universities now.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Vermont already has that in the form of the Community College of Vermont.  CCV has something like 11 locations.  They don’t need two more.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2020)

good to know. I was unaware of that

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> good to know. I was unaware of that
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



CCV doesn’t have any residential campuses, so perhaps there is something to look into there.  I’m just not sure of the demand for a residential two-year college.  Champlain College moved away from that model.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2020)

Maybe adopt something like Northeastern's Coop program.  Alternating on campus semesters with full time work.  Might be a challenge in VT as VT doesn't have a ton of industry to partner with like Mass, but you could reduce staffing needs and expenses adopting such a model.  Probably easier to implement at Johnson than Lyndon. More work opportunities nearby in Chittenden county

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Apr 18, 2020)

My wife is also a LSC alumni, this is very sad as my college closed several years ago and now so will hers.  The reality is the NVU system has been financially struggling for years, if not decades.  They merged Johnson and Lyndon into NVU to try and drive some synergistic savings but the reality is they should have closed one of them years ago and merged into a single campus.  Trying to string both along kept them burning $$ every year.  Very sad and no doubt this will make the national airwaves given the amount of on air meteorolgists are LSC grads (Jim Cantore probably the most national, biggest name with Tim Kelly a big regional name).  I feel bad for the Northeast Kingdom and Lyndonville itself.  Such a quaint town, my wife and I have great memories from her time there.  I even gave a bunch of her friends there their first flight experience when I used to fly up for weekends into Lyndonville airport.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 18, 2020)

Wow this thread has been very interesting and revealing!  I graduated from LSC a long time ago and did not realize there was financial chaos in the making.  I thought when the name change took place that things were happening in a good way.  This is sad to read and NEK does not need more of this type of economic hardship.  I also grew up in NEK and it is a beautiful area but surviving there is becoming harder.  My whole family moved away.  Lots of my classmates from high school moved away.  Many that stayed behind did not go on to higher education so that makes things hard for educational institutions since they have to go after out of state students.  The one thing that NVU-Lyndon offered of any recognition was their meteorology program! 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 18, 2020)

Irrespective of whatever the issues are with these two colleges, America needs fewer colleges, not more.   

The entire industry is teetering on becoming a sham, with scores of colleges or the vast majority of given school's majors being nothing more than glorified high school preparing the student for nothing valuable in particular.   This phenomena has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years.   Higher education in America is a faux market propped-up with massive government-fueled debt, which has led to skyrocketing increases in professor salaries, increases in tuition costs, increases in school construction projects (usually for "fun" things, not higher education things), and increases in the NCAA athletic department nuclear arms race.

The other thing that's fueled this craziness is politicians from both parties telling America that "everyone" should have a college education.  This is both terrible advice (not everyone is college material), as well as being completely irrational as well as unhelpful to say the least.  You'd think people would generally figure this out for themselves via living in a world where the average plumber's W2 form is now more impressive than the average college graduate's W2 form.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Irrespective of whatever the issues are with these two colleges, America needs fewer colleges, not more.
> 
> The entire industry is teetering on becoming a sham, with scores of colleges or the vast majority of given school's majors being nothing more than glorified high school preparing the student for nothing valuable in particular.   This phenomena has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years.   Higher education in America is a faux market propped-up with massive government-fueled debt, which has led to skyrocketing increases in professor salaries, increases in tuition costs, increases in school construction projects (usually for "fun" things, not higher education things), and increases in the NCAA athletic department nuclear arms race.
> 
> The other thing that's fueled this craziness is politicians from both parties telling America that "everyone" should have a college education.  This is both terrible advice (not everyone is college material), as well as being completely irrational as well as unhelpful to say the least.  You'd think people would generally figure this out for themselves via living in a world where the average plumber's W2 form is now more impressive than the average college graduate's W2 form.



The simple fact that there's so many line cooks with a culinary school degree... even if it's just an associate's, is just weird. Half the stuff that requires a degree could be done better in a decent apprenticeship program.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Irrespective of whatever the issues are with these two colleges, America needs fewer colleges, not more.
> 
> The entire industry is teetering on becoming a sham, with scores of colleges or the vast majority of given school's majors being nothing more than glorified high school preparing the student for nothing valuable in particular.   This phenomena has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years.   Higher education in America is a faux market propped-up with massive government-fueled debt, which has led to skyrocketing increases in professor salaries, increases in tuition costs, increases in school construction projects (usually for "fun" things, not higher education things), and increases in the NCAA athletic department nuclear arms race.
> 
> The other thing that's fueled this craziness is politicians from both parties telling America that "everyone" should have a college education.  This is both terrible advice (not everyone is college material), as well as being completely irrational as well as unhelpful to say the least.  You'd think people would generally figure this out for themselves via living in a world where the average plumber's W2 form is now more impressive than the average college graduate's W2 form.



Agree with pretty much all of this other than perhaps the skyrocketing increases in professor salaries part. I'm not so sure that part is happening. I think the administration is lining their own pockets more and more and don't really think much of those tuition increases are making it to the professors themselves. I have a few friends that are professors and they constantly complain about how underpaid their are and how it is ridiculous how the schools can't afford to pay them more with what they are charging students. Could just be my friends are at the wrong universities...who knows. I do know that in the 16 years since I graduated college that tuition at my school has more than doubled. (It was right around 20K in my last year there and is now 50.5K for next year for tuition alone). That significantly outpaces inflation and is just insane. It isn't sustainable at all.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Agree with pretty much all of this other than perhaps the skyrocketing increases in professor salaries part. I'm not so sure that part is happening. I think the administration is lining their own pockets more and more and don't really think much of those tuition increases are making it to the professors themselves. I have a few friends that are professors and they constantly complain about how underpaid their are and how it is ridiculous how the schools can't afford to pay them more with what they are charging students. Could just be my friends are at the wrong universities...who knows. I do know that in the 16 years since I graduated college that tuition at my school has more than doubled. (It was right around 20K in my last year there and is now 50.5K for next year for tuition alone). That significantly outpaces inflation and is just insane. It isn't sustainable at all.



Jeb Spaulding makes over $230k a year.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (Apr 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Jeb Spaulding makes over $230k a year.



I had no idea who that was off the top of my head...had to google him. Good example of my point though about the administration lining their pockets...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Jeb Spaulding makes over $230k a year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That’s not much considering he is the head of an organization with a couple thousand employees.

The Vermont State College System isn’t known for paying high salaries.  It is incredibly bloated, though.  I spent some time looking at the faculty directory.  A private company would have about 1/5 of the administrators and support staff, for starters.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 18, 2020)

Marty Meehan of UMass makes $582,077.  A ridiculous sum.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 18, 2020)

What about the salaries of some of the football coaches in some cases higher that many NFL head coaches.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2020)

They claim "boosters" are how college coaches in big D1 schools can make 7 figures.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> What about the salaries of some of the football coaches in some cases higher that many NFL head coaches.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



NCAA D1 football brings in billions of dollars for schools. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I had no idea who that was off the top of my head...had to google him. Good example of my point though about the administration lining their pockets...



It’s a lot considering the state and the negative results he has produced.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> It’s a lot considering the state and the negative results he has produced.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



You get what you pay for.  The bigger issue was that he was a political appointee.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *Agree with pretty much all of this other than perhaps the skyrocketing increases in professor salaries part. I'm not so sure that part is happening.*



The average college professor now makes north of $150,000, and the average college graduate makes south of $60,000.

That should trigger mental alarm bells for all.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 18, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> NCAA D1 football brings in billions of dollars for schools.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Certainly does not subsidize tuition


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## EPB (Apr 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Certainly does not subsidize tuition
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Of course not. Big time college sports attract high school students to intuitions they wouldn't otherwise be interested in (e.g. Alabama). That should put upward pressure on tuition, if anything. That said, big time sports like SEC football should be serious money makers in their own right if managed correctly. 

Other extremely high paid people in academia include fundraisers at places like Harvard. I once had an economics professor (not at Harvard, unfortunately) argue that these people basically just need to bring in one mega donation to justify their paychecks (paying someone $1 million to bring in an extra $10 million of donations is obviously a good thing). Of course, this also doesn't bring down tuition. It just allows universities to build bigger/fancier empires.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Apr 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The average college professor now makes north of $150,000, and the average college graduate makes south of $60,000.
> 
> That should trigger mental alarm bells for all.



Not really. I assume you're looking purely at NJ for the average numbers for professors at least? Because nationally at 4 year public schools the average is $129K and at 4 year privates it is only $137K. In NJ it is a tad over $150K overall (but Princeton paying an average of $250K skews that one a bit). You have to keep in mind though, many teaching faculty at colleges are not full "professors". In NJ, the average is down to $103K for associate professors and $85K for assistant professors. Adjuncts are even lower typically (and nationally adjuncts account for slightly over 50% of teaching faculty). So ultimately only a fraction of teaching faculty are part of that "150K average" that you're citing. If you had a true average of all teaching faculty, the number would be substantially lower (and far more useful).

And since this thread was originally about VT, the average professor in VT is at $103K, associates are 81K, and assistant professors at $69K. To be even more specific if we want to focus on the VSC system it is around $70, $57, and $50 respectively. So yes, $230K for the admin when that is the amount they pay professors is excessive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The average college professor now makes north of $150,000, and the average college graduate makes south of $60,000.
> 
> That should trigger mental alarm bells for all.



Not at VSC!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 18, 2020)

Demographic cliff is coming for colleges.  Low birth years during the great recession.  Colleges today have to hire large numbers of mental health counselors.  Gen Z can't handle it being away from Mom and Dad.  The ratio of administrators to students is out of control.  Growth of professors is flat.  Growth of administrators is high.


----------



## Zand (Apr 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Not at VSC!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



IIRC the highest paid professor at LSC when I was there was under 70k. I'm sure its gone up a little bit but still very low compared to almost anywhere else. Unfortunately for whatever reason the VSC decided they needed an administration big enough to run SUNY instead of small enough to run VSC.

From what I understand, nothing was going bad until the last 10 years. I remember them panicking about dropping enrollment during my last couple years. It just sucks...on top of having one of the best meteorology programs in the world, they also have a top notch TV program as well as pretty good music and mountain recreation departments. Not to mention how important it was for the whole northeastern part of VT and northwestern part of NH as the only commutable 4 year college. The fact that UVM is trying to get the state to fund them for more than the VSC needs to survive is the biggest salt in the wounds.

At this rate everything east of rt 100 and north of rt 4 should secede for NH and everything else can be part of a new Vermont complete with a new capital in Red Square in Burlington. It's what they want anyway. Its funny that a state that prides itself on being rural just laughs in the face of the people in the actual rural parts while they consolidate all the wealth, education, and jobs in one county.

The state is so corrupt that they don't even try to hide it anymore.

Oh BTW let's not forget the state also just decided to take 20+ prisoners infected with Covid from a prison in St. Albans and dumped them in St J.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *Not really.* I assume you're looking purely at NJ for the average numbers for professors at least? Because *nationally at 4 year public schools the average is $129K and at 4 year privates it is only $137K*.



Uhhhh...... I mean...... okay, I'll take your research as gospel. 

 So what? 

  That's still more than TWICE the salary of the average college graduate.   And for what, for teaching 18th century Greek art?  Gimme a frickin' break.  It's insane.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> since this thread was originally about VT,* the average professor in VT is at $103K*



You obviously dont realize how massively above normal wage that is for a college graduate in State of Vermont.

  I'm taking your word on that $103k figure, but assuming that's true, it's TWICE the wage of the average college graduate Vermonter's salary.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Uhhhh...... I mean...... okay, I'll take your research as gospel.
> 
> So what?
> 
> That's still more than TWICE the salary of the average college graduate.   And for what, for teaching 18th century Greek art?  Gimme a frickin' break.  It's insane.



You're missing the whole point that a full "professor" isn't an entry level job... Why should a recent college graduate make what someone with numerous years of experience is making (in ANY field)? What's the point of even comparing the two? The average Sr Director at company XYZ is going to make a heck of a lot more than a recent college graduate as well. So what?

I'm certainly not going to say every professor is worth it. But when you're talking about an average, that's including some of the science and engineering fields and not just "18th century Greek art". I'm perfectly fine with paying 100K plus to an engineering professor that knows their shit and has been teaching for years to get to that point.

Now if you want to compare tuition vs starting salaries of graduates to show how ridiculously excessive tuition is, then I'm all on board with that.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 19, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Certainly does not subsidize tuition
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Maybe not directly but it allows them to recruit more students (not just athletic scholarship students) and build new buildings. Also a lot of the student players that do go pro give to these universities as alum.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

Average rate of inflation since 1997 has been 2.1%.  So, I don't find it unreasonable at all for teachers to ask for what essentially amounts to a .9% raise a year.  

As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans.  As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid.  Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan.  If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine.  But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea.  Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> You're missing the whole point that a full "professor" isn't an entry level job... Why should a recent college graduate make what someone with numerous years of experience is making (in ANY field)? What's the point of even comparing the two?



When I say "college graduate", and I quote those figures,  I'm not talking about the pool of 22 year olds who just graduated & have no experience,  I'm talking about the pool of everyone with a college degree.  Not sure why you'd take it otherwise. Nevertheless,  inflated teacher salaries is certainly part of the problem.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Can't say I disagree with this. But is everyone in the state also getting the same raise? Or just public sector employees. I'd like to see public sector employees raises tied to the average of raises given to private sector employees of similar salary ranges.


That's very difficult to do and predict.  Ultimately, it's the voters who decide if raises for public sector employees get approved or not. At least at the local level.  They don't always get that raise and sometimes jobs are cut in schools and towns to meet budgets.  So, in that sense, things are run like a business. 

My position hasn't seen a raise in base salary in over ten years.  You want to make more, you sell more. You want to sell more, you improve your skills. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Average rate of inflation since 1997 has been 2.1%.  So, I don't find it unreasonable at all for teachers to ask for what essentially amounts to a .9% raise a year.
> 
> As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans.  As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid.  Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan.  If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine.  But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea.  Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



This is on TOP of their step increases.  Nobody should get a raise every single year that is .9% above inflation just because they exist and are still breathing.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This is on TOP of their step increases.  Nobody should get a raise every single year that is .9% above inflation just because they exist and are still breathing.


Maybe in your town. Not mine. Teachers contracts are negotiated in three year blocks.  Usually the first year has the highest increase and then years 2&3 less so. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe in your town. Not mine. Teachers contracts are negotiated in three year blocks.  Usually the first year has the highest increase and then years 2&3 less so.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Trust me.  Your town has step increases for teachers.  Any raises are on top of the step increases.  I have no problem if raises keep the steps tracking with inflation, mind you.  My own work contract has a built in annual adjustment for inflation.  But you were content with raises above and beyond inflation every year.  Big difference.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

yes, I do not have a problem with an annual  1% raise above inflation for the teachers in my town.  I think there is value in offering an incentive to hold onto our teachers as they become more experienced.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2020)

Elementary school teachers making $47,000 *≠* college professors making $187,000.

This is getting way off subject in a conflatey' way.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> .
> As for college tuition, I feel that much of the problem lies in students having too easy of access to loans.  As with any loan, they should be provided only if a reasonable expectation can be made that the loan will be repaid.  Perhaps tying the average salary five years post graduation associated with a particular degree should be considered before approving a loan.  If the student's family wants to cover a $200k education for a theater degree, that's fine.  But, providing a $200k loan for such a degree is not a good idea.  Perhaps stricter loan requirements will force students and families to look at a college education as the business investment it should be viewed as.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2020)

Zand said:


> IIRC the highest paid professor at LSC when I was there was under 70k. I'm sure its gone up a little bit but still very low compared to almost anywhere else. Unfortunately for whatever reason the VSC decided they needed an administration big enough to run SUNY instead of small enough to run VSC.
> 
> From what I understand, nothing was going bad until the last 10 years. I remember them panicking about dropping enrollment during my last couple years. It just sucks...on top of having one of the best meteorology programs in the world, they also have a top notch TV program as well as pretty good music and mountain recreation departments. Not to mention how important it was for the whole northeastern part of VT and northwestern part of NH as the only commutable 4 year college. The fact that UVM is trying to get the state to fund them for more than the VSC needs to survive is the biggest salt in the wounds.
> 
> ...



Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> yes, I do not have a problem with an annual  1% raise above inflation for the teachers in my town.  I think there is value in offering an incentive to hold onto our teachers as they become more experienced.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



You don’t seem to understand the difference between step increases and independent raises that are above the rate of inflation.  

My issue is with raises that increase the pay at each step at a rate that is above inflation for a year after year after year.  That is simply not a sustainable model.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

No, I'm perfectly aware of what step increases are.  Those flatten out over time as teachers age out of the system and are typically replaced with less experienced and younger teachers at lower salaries.

A recent three contract in my town had a year 1 increase if 3.7% across the board and then 1.6% in years 2/3.  Seems reasonable to me.

I would add the 1% as part of the step program.  Maybe tie .5% to tenure with a 4 year degree and the full 1% to those with a Master's. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I agree, A raise to keep pace with inflation, regardless of merit or improvement, is all I would see as anywhere near sustainable. Getting a raise beyond inflation is unsustainable. Merit raises are a separate issue. Step increases come with years of service beyond that.



Exactly.  It’s basic mathematics.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Elementary school teachers making $47,000 *≠* college professors making $187,000.
> 
> This is getting way off subject in a conflatey' way.



I agree...however your average college professor still isn't making $187K (especially in VT).


VSC schools (which was the original topic of this thread) have even lower averages for each of these ranks than the VT overall averages.

This chart also doesn't include adjunct professors since they're paid per course not paid on a salary basis. My own college seems to have moved away from adjuncts towards using "Lecturers" instead since I graduated (at least in the department I was part of).

Additionally, most teaching faculty at a college are not full "professors". In most colleges it is very difficult to become a full professor and takes years. There are "professors" that I had 20 years ago at my school that are still only "Associate professors" and not full professors. A "Professor" is the highest academic rank at a college. When talking about salary data, it isn't a generic term.

And before you question the source of my data...


> Faculty and staff pay data come from the U.S. Department of Education’s Integrated Postsecondary Data System (Ipeds), comprising degree-granting colleges that participate in Title IV funding. The faculty data refer to full-time, nonmedical, instructional staff (either “instructional only” or “instructional combined with research and/or public service”) as of November 1 of the corresponding academic year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2020)

The top professor in the meteorological program made $67,600 in 2017.

I had heard rumors that the program has gone downhill. Based on this list of faculty, I would have a hard time arguing against that.  Nothing against any of them personally, it’s just that it shows that the school is not really invested in the program.
http://atmos.northernvermont.edu/about-us/faculty-staff/


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2020)

In 2002 I was hired as an adjunct professor to teach a Resort Marketing and Sales course at Davis and Elkins College in West Virginia. 

I was paid $1500 for the semester plus mileage.  Lol

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Apr 19, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The top professor in the meteorological program made $67,600 in 2017.
> 
> I had heard rumors that the program has gone downhill. Based on this list of faculty, I would have a hard time arguing against that.  Nothing against any of them personally, it’s just that it shows that the school is not really invested in the program.
> http://atmos.northernvermont.edu/about-us/faculty-staff/



The average professor salary was just under $70K for NVU in the 2018-2019 academic year. So $67,600 for 2017 seems certainly possible. At the moment, the "top" professor in the program is also the only "professor". So not hard to see how they would be pretty in line with the average especially if that type of scenario is common across numerous programs in the school.


----------



## Zand (Apr 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Elementary school teachers making $47,000 *≠* college professors making $187,000.
> 
> This is getting way off subject in a conflatey' way.



No professor in the VSC makes close to that. The longest tenured teachers in my hometown school district make more than the longest tenured professors in the VSC.

This isnt a professor salary problem. It's an overinflated administration with overinflated administrative salaries problem.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2020)

Zand said:


> No professor in the VSC makes close to that. The longest tenured teachers in my hometown school district make more than the longest tenured professors in the VSC.
> 
> This isnt a professor salary problem. It's an overinflated administration with overinflated administrative salaries problem.



Top heavy
No direction or leadership
Not enough state funding for decades
Demographic changes fueled in part by 20-30 years of bad public policy decisions at the State level
Single-party rule with no checks and balances

Those are SOME of the reasons for how we got here.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2020)

Zand said:


> *No professor in the VSC makes close to that.* This isnt a professor salary problem. It's an overinflated administration with overinflated administrative salaries problem.



My first comment in this thread noted my comments were irrespective of these two colleges.  

Were I to focus on just these 2 colleges, I'd assume a large part of the problem is simply one of demand.   And this type of school with an acceptance rate of 95% (2016) is likely part of the problem I'm speaking of, not part of the solution.  I doubt the acceptance rate was 95% in 1970.  While I can sympathize it's sad for old alums to see schools die off, and it's negative for various local economies, I believe it's necessary & ultimately a positive thing for America's higher education.  We need fewer schools & more high quality schools, not more schools fueling the destructive,_ "everyone must go to college"_ falsehood.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In 2002 I was hired as an adjunct professor to teach a Resort Marketing and Sales course at Davis and Elkins College in West Virginia.
> 
> I was paid $1500 for the semester plus mileage.  Lol
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I worked in CA as an Adjunct Professor and got paid $3000 per class per quarter then moved to NE and tried doing the same and got paid $1500 per semester - taught one class then gave it up - was not worth it.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 20, 2020)

Just a crazy contrast.

I was a teaching assistant for two sections of Engineering Communications my last semester at University of Michigan Law School in 2001. Get this- I got my tuition, a $3000 stipend and decent health insurance- About $28K in compensation for 100 hours of pleasant work over the semester. Why? Graduate Student Union


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 20, 2020)

Professor salaries at the higher end of the pay scale are often funded through endowed chairs and should have no effect on tuition.  If the Al Roker Professor of Meteorology is earning $500,000 per year, chances are that most of the money is coming from the endowment.  Perhaps deep-pocketed donors should be earmarking their donations for tuition reduction and scholarships, but that is not nearly as cool as getting your name on a building or having your name associated with some pop physicist whom you watch on PBS.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 20, 2020)

Spoiler alert. This has nothing to do with Northeast skiing.

Also, all colleges and universities are utterly f$&@ed. Like many will just be gone. New enrollment is destroyed, current students are taking a year off. Harvard has $40b in endowmnet funds and thought taking a trivial amount of federal disaster loans was a good idea....just let them burn.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2020)

Key point from the hearing today:  The Chancellor conceded that he needs the same amount of money to keep the campuses open another year as he would if he goes ahead and closes immediately.  He needs $25 million.  

So seems like a no-brainer: get $25 million and KEEP them open.  Restructure and move ahead.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Key point from the hearing today:  The Chancellor conceded that he needs the same amount of money to keep the campuses open *another year* as he would if he goes ahead and closes immediately.  He needs $25 million.
> 
> So seems like a no-brainer: get $25 million and KEEP them open.  Restructure and move ahead.



The schools are losing money.  Your math is off.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 20, 2020)

billo said:


> *Harvard has $40b in endowmnet funds and thought taking a trivial amount of federal disaster loans was a good idea....just let them burn.*



I wanted to puke when I heard Harvard's getting COVID-19 funds. Literally the largest endowment on Planet Earth.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2020)

The high profile Harvard grads really should be endlessly shaming the school.  My understanding is Harvard could operate in perpetuity off their endowment without charging a dime for tuition. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 20, 2020)

So what the point of amassing so much money?  $40B?  I would be curious how much COVID19 funding they get 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2020)

Almost $9M

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/4/15/harvard-coronavirus-cares-act/



Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The schools are losing money.  Your math is off.



As I said, it’s not my math.

If you listened, this was Spaulding’s own admission.  $25 million needed now be it close the schools now or keep them open a year.  It was in the first hour or so of public comment.  So if it’s wrong, that’s on him.  

The point is he needs $25 mill regardless of whether they close now or after 20-21.  So might as well try to either do a slow close or a careful restructure with more input.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

Okay, let me explain it to you.

For your argument to make fiscal sense, after the upcoming academic year the colleges must not lose any money ever again.  Since not a single person has come remotely close to cracking that code, it's not at all probable.  And the demographics are forecasted to get much worse, especially in New England.

If the goal is to stem the bleeding, it makes a LOT of sense to close the colleges now even if it would cost the same amount of money to keep the colleges open for just one more year.  

Think of it this way: I steal $100 from your checking account every month.  I offer you a deal.  You can pay a $100 ransom and I will never take another nickel from your checking account.  If you don't pay me the ransom, I will keep taking the $100 every month.  According to you, you shouldn't pay the ransom because next month you would have lost $100 anyway.

As I have said earlier, I am all for finding a way to keep these colleges open.  But you need a better argument than the one you just made.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

Also, the capacity of the state to increase funding to the colleges is non-existent thanks to the impact of Covid-19 on the state coffers.

Any solution is going to have to be independent of state funds.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> If the shutdown costs are 25 million, pay it and be done. To spend another 25 million this year, then pay the 25 million shutdown costs next year, you are simply kicking the can down the road. It's a money loser, time to close it down.


Maybe correct, maybe not. 

Johnson has been around since 1828.  Lyndon since 1911.  Clearly they've had many, many years that they were solvent.  

I'd be curious to know what their balance sheets looked like in recent years that they were solvent.  What was the enrollment and revenue? What were the operating costs? How much money did the state contribute those years?  

What I've read is the primary reduction in enrollment is due to a reduction in VT high school graduates.  The school age population is shrinking, but the rate of people still going to college remains the same.   Can NVU operations be scaled down to a point that it's solvent again? I think Jeb Spaulding needs to make a very clear and data driven argument that it can't be done.  He owes that to the students, donors and the local communities who will suffer greatly from these closures.  

If he has done this, I'd like to read the study.  I've only seen the news pieces, which really don't provide enough information for people to have an informed opinion. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

You act as if the college system has just woken up and realized that they need to fix the problem.

They have been trying for years.  And look where it got them.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

I can spot one of the problems.

In 1994, in-state tuition at Lyndon was $3,168.  Adjusted for inflation, in today's dollars that is $5,517.60.

In 2020, tuition is $11,592. 

It's the same for out of state tuition.  $7,320 in 1994.  Adjusted for inflation that's $12,749.  Actual tuition for 2020: $25,680 

And yet the school is broke.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 21, 2020)

Harvard giving the money back.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> You act as if the college system has just woken up and realized that they need to fix the problem.
> 
> They have been trying for years.  And look where it got them.


Yeah, not really.

I'm just asking for a data driven discussion.  What has been done already? How many expenses (read positions) have been cut to try and balance their budget? 

 If it can't be done, so be it, but show the community why.  That's all.  Most people are just seeing news articles severely lacking in data.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 21, 2020)

Funny tuition has skyrocketed yet starting salaries have not proportionally 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Funny tuition has skyrocketed yet starting salaries have not proportionally



As others have mentioned, tuition has skyrocketed in large part because students have easy access to loans and administrators are exploiting that.  A humanities degree from most colleges and universities is clearly not worth $200,000, but as long as we continue to encourage everyone to go to college and let them borrow whatever they need to do so, we won't see tuition going down until the student loan bubble bursts.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 21, 2020)

"until the student loan bubble bursts." I think it has burst but by and large the new suckers keep showing up. Look at the endless articles from graduates (or dropouts) in hopeless loan hell. 

NVU not slimming down to one school was a planning disaster.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2020)

tumbler said:


> *Harvard giving the money back.*



Is that right?  I hadnt seen that.

This has been a great recent development whereby the American public is "shaming" these entities which are taking advantage of COVID-19 crisis funds even though they obviously don't really need it.  Shake Shack returned their money this week as well.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Funny tuition has skyrocketed yet starting salaries have not proportionally
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



schools have financial problems and right away you point to salaries and tuitions. yes they certainly big factors but to get a holistic picture, you need to also look at the state funding over the same period as well as enrollment size.

the problems at the US colleges and University have been known for a while now.  the problem is more complex than meets the eye.

most schools that have weathered over the years are two categories: 1) well known brand names like Harvard and Darthmouth - in essence these schools are unlikely to have any enrollment issues; and, 2) schools that have excellent symbiosis with businesses.

i am a flatlander but my understanding is that Vermont is a second worst state to start a business. you cannot expect to have a thriving state school system while making it very difficult for businesses to survive. a quick google gives me this.
https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/august/01/study-vermont-poor-place-start-business


another interesting read
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-06/how-universities-make-cities-great


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> As others have mentioned, tuition has skyrocketed in large part because students have easy access to loans and administrators are exploiting that.  A humanities degree from most colleges and universities is clearly not worth $200,000, but as long as we continue to encourage everyone to go to college and let them borrow whatever they need to do so, *we won't see tuition going down until the student loan bubble bursts.*



You're assuming it's "allowed" to burst.

But yes, few understand how serious a situation this is; the combined debt is almost incomprehensible.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're assuming it's "allowed" to burst.



True...


----------



## cdskier (Apr 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  I hadnt seen that.
> 
> This has been a great recent development whereby the American public is "shaming" these entities which are taking advantage of COVID-19 crisis funds even though they obviously don't really need it.  Shake Shack returned their money this week as well.



They're not really "giving it back", they're simply allocating it entirely to student financial aid:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/4/21/harvard-stimulus-funds-financial-aid/

To be fair, I don't know if they even can "give it back" as unlike the small business loans (i.e. the Shake Shack scenario), it doesn't seem colleges had to apply for the money and were simply given it automatically based on a set formula. Kind of ironic that there are senators, etc blasting Harvard on twitter when it was actually the wording in the very bill that they voted for that created the problem in the first place. Just goes to show how many people don't read the details of the bills they pass.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  I hadnt seen that.
> 
> This has been a great recent development whereby the American public is "shaming" these entities which are taking advantage of COVID-19 crisis funds even though they obviously don't really need it.  Shake Shack returned their money this week as well.



I have a theory that something else is going on with Shake Shack.  There is a provision that was slipped into the Paycheck Protection Act that requires businesses that take funds to remain neutral in any union organizing effort.  My bet is that Shake Shack learned about this provision and returned the money in a nanosecond.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're assuming it's "allowed" to burst.
> 
> But yes, few understand how serious a situation this is; the combined debt is almost incomprehensible.



Well I think there was a politician that wanted to erase student loan debt.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Kind of *ironic that there are senators, etc blasting Harvard on twitter when it was actually the wording in the very bill that they voted for that created the problem* in the first place. Just *goes to show how many people don't read the details of the bills they pass.*



No, they did read the bill, they did know, and they did not have a choice.  It was either agree to the bill with these various ridiculous "goodies" included, or let thousands of Americans starve.  They chose the lesser of two evils.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I have a theory that something else is going on with Shake Shack.  There is a provision that was slipped into the Paycheck Protection Act that requires businesses that take funds to remain neutral in any union organizing effort.  My bet is that Shake Shack learned about this provision and returned the money in a nanosecond.



Actually, that only applies to mid-size business loans, which is different than the the PPP loans. The mid-size business loan program is not forgivable (like the PPP loan) and the stay neutral only applies during the terms of the loan.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 21, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> There were strings attached. But yet, the Kennedy center for the arts was allowed to lay off their staff after getting their money. It's always about the money.



If any small or non-profit business obtains a PPP loan and uses less than 75% of the loan to pay employee salaries, health insurance, employee costs, the loan will not be forgivable. As such, the business would have to pay back the loan with interest. I am not sure if the payback amount is prorated based on the percentage that was used to maintain employees on the books.


----------



## skiur (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Well I think there was a politician that wanted to erase student loan debt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That will prepare these kids for the real world!


----------



## JimG. (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Well I think there was a politician that wanted to erase student loan debt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Erase? No such thing.

Someone else will pay for it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Actually, that only applies to mid-size business loans, which is different than the the PPP loans. The mid-size business loan program is not forgivable (like the PPP loan) and the stay neutral only applies during the terms of the loan.



What makes you think that their loan was for a small business?  I don’t see franchisees giving the money back.  It’s corporate that is.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

mbedle said:


> If any small or non-profit business obtains a PPP loan and uses less than 75% of the loan to pay employee salaries, health insurance, employee costs, the loan will not be forgivable. As such, the business would have to pay back the loan with interest. I am not sure if the payback amount is prorated based on the percentage that was used to maintain employees on the books.



Close, but not quite true.  The amount of the loan that is forgiven is reduced depending on how close to the 75% you get.  There is also a FTE requirement.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2020)

RE: the Harvard money; Trump just said in today's briefing he's going to make Harvard give the COVID19 relief cash back.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> RE: the Harvard money; Trump just said in today's briefing he's going to make Harvard give the COVID19 relief cash back.



That will put the Democrats in a pickle since they can’t possibly go on record agreeing with Trump.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 21, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Why not have a politician submit a bill to erase mortgages???? Someone, somewhere has footed the bill for all these loans, and people signed their name to them agreeing to pay them back according to the terms. I've always had to pay back loans, even if they were predatory. Legally required. Keep it that way.



Agree. After all, they are claiming to be college material (a bygone term) and SMART. Please- I understood the implications of every loan. Then again, I was an engineering student and studied 35 hours a week plus classes to make sure it worked out. And I graduated in a recession. 

By the way, my old engineering professor, a now 92 year ex-Iraqi Jew who clawed himself up from nothing, said today's students couldn't begin to hack what we did in the 1980s. His name is Dr. Latif Jiji. The whiners should look him up. And I knew another guy who slept in an unheated warehouse and walked the 5 miles to City College from the Bronx because he couldn't afford the subway. He studied in the library and showered in the gym. He got that engineering degree and on from there. No complaints from Daniel Plaza.


----------



## EPB (Apr 21, 2020)

JoeB-Z said:


> Please- I understood the implications of every loan. Then again, I was an engineering student and studied 35 hours a week plus classes to make sure it worked out. And I graduated in a recession.



As a millennial, I will say that the sell job that academia was doing in the 2000's on America's youth was wildly unethical. If anything, I fear the BS level has only been elevated as more economically useless degrees/fields of study have permeated academia in the years since I was an undergraduate. The smoke I got blown up my rear end about how priceless my degree was going to be, regardless of what I studied, was palpable at each university to which I applied. 

At best these administrators/professors naively appealed to their position of authority when pitching to prospective students the value of the degrees they hoped to earn. More likely, they knew that ~half the degrees offered were totally worthless and these university representatives continued with the sell job anyway. The irony is not lost on me that these very people claim to be the arbiters of morality - or that these are the same people who preach from their soapboxes how evil businesses are.

This is coming from someone whose parents could afford the price tag and earned a valuable degree. That said, I feel terribly for those whose parents couldn't afford the sky high tuition and didn't have the financial acumen to convincingly explain to their children why borrowing money to study [XYZ obvious joke field of study] is a one way trip to financial ruin.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2020)

Purely 100% my own views here... For perspective, my in-laws (both of whom I like and enjoy talking to after knowing them for over a quarter century now) were college profs in the Boston area... My FIL was head of the College of General Studies at Boston University when he retired, and my MIL was an Associate Prof in the Biology Department at UMASS Boston.

They both now admit, that short of a minority number of academic fields (such as engineering, mathematics, applied sciences, etc) that so much of what is offered and taught these days, just isn't cost worthy or relevant today (and for added perspective, my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the  late 1800's through mid 1900's ... (I wish I was making that up, but I'm not, and apparently it's culturally relevant enough in the academic world that Columbia University has entered into a bit of a bidding war with Princeton now over having my sister in-law on staff.... [emoji849][emoji849]

If one wants me to elaborate more upon my views of modern academics after reading this, just say the word!! Lol!!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the  late 1800's through mid 1900's ... (I wish I was making that up, but I'm not, and apparently it's culturally relevant enough in the academic world that *Columbia University has entered into a bit of a bidding war with Princeton now over having my sister in-law on staff*.... [emoji849][emoji849]



Of course they are. Kind of shocked Harvard didnt beat them too it, they must already have one.


----------



## trackbiker (Apr 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> my sister in-law, their younger daughter, is an Ph.D, tenured professor at Princeton as a social anthropologist specializing in the study of Turkish genocide of the Muslim Cyprian citizens from the  late 1800's through mid 1900's ...
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



 Is that really what she is teaching??? It sounds more like that's what her subject was for her thesis for her Phd.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> As a millennial, I will say that the sell job that academia was doing in the 2000's on America's youth was wildly unethical. If anything, *I fear the BS level has only been elevated as more economically useless degrees/fields of study have permeated academia in the years since I was an undergraduate.* The smoke I got blown up my rear end about how priceless my degree was going to be, regardless of what I studied, was palpable at each university to which I applied.



It's a scam that's skyrocketed the last 20 years.  The "value" of college education has plummeted in roughly that timeframe.  It used to be humorous hearing about all these ridiculously funny & esoteric subjects & degrees, but it's not so amusing anymore.  

Ever watch old movies?  It's funny how you'll watch a movie from the 50s or 60s and people would be "impressed" by the college graduate, nowadays all you have to have is a pulse & the ability to fill out the Federal loan paperwork & VOILA!!!!!!  You're a college graduate.  A serious devaluation in being a college graduate, has of course, come with that.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 22, 2020)

I remember I was in a stats class and there was the dumbest person I have ever met in the class. I said to myself and to many others “if she gets a degree mine is fucking useless.” It basically is now anyway. Don’t think it really ever helped me get a job. It was more who I knew that got me most jobs. At least interviews.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Okay, let me explain it to you.
> 
> For your argument to make fiscal sense, after the upcoming academic year the colleges must not lose any money ever again.  Since not a single person has come remotely close to cracking that code, it's not at all probable.  And the demographics are forecasted to get much worse, especially in New England.
> 
> ...



Third time:  THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT.  I summarized what JEB SAID.  The question raised was why not get the bridge funding and take a year to restructure?  That was from the Public Hearing.  

And you are one of two NEK residents who think that closing the college is a good idea.  That's just outrageous and I imagine meant to get people angry.  Stop trolling.


----------



## EPB (Apr 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's a scam that's skyrocketed the last 20 years.  The "value" of college education has plummeted in roughly that timeframe.  It used to be humorous hearing about all these ridiculously funny & esoteric subjects & degrees, but it's not so amusing anymore.
> 
> Ever watch old movies?  It's funny how you'll watch a movie from the 50s or 60s and people would be "impressed" by the college graduate, nowadays all you have to have is a pulse & the ability to fill out the Federal loan paperwork & VOILA!!!!!!  You're a college graduate.  A serious devaluation in being a college graduate, has of course, come with that.


This is the scary part to me. The cost has gone up while the preparation for the workforce/adulthood has likely gone down, on average. This is what throwing money at problems buys us, I suppose - the housing crisis all over again in a different segment of the economy... 

I went to a well regarded private university for my undergraduate. All-in cost was ~$50k a year at the time. Now it's ~$72k. At this rate, it will cost $100k/year in today's dollars by the time I'll look to send my kids to college. If that does happen, admission will be more about whose can afford tuition than who's most qualified. There was certainly an element of that when I was there, but it will have a material adverse effect on the quality of the students, if unmitigated.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Zand (Apr 22, 2020)

Jeb Spaulding just announced the schools will not close in the next year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Third time:  THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT.  I summarized what JEB SAID.  The question raised was why not get the bridge funding and take a year to restructure?  That was from the Public Hearing.
> 
> And you are one of two NEK residents who think that closing the college is a good idea.  That's just outrageous and I imagine meant to get people angry.  Stop trolling.



Take a year to restructure?  Isn't that what they are doing now?  Isn't that what they did when they consolidated Johnson and Lyndon?

The problem is that you believe that there is some sort of magical land of unicorns and rainbows if the right administrator could just find it.  That is nonsense.  The demographics are what they are and there is nothing that can be done about it.  

At the outset, I said what a devastating loss this will be for my community.  I hope that they find a way to keep the college open.  But people like you who pretend that there is a path forward without massive increases in state aid are not helping the situation.  You need to be honest and admit that state aid is the only way out of this mess.  I'm focused on a solution.  You are focusing on a proven failed model.

Let me address the point about my being a NEK resident.  Either keeping the college open makes sense for the state of Vermont or it doesn't.  It has nothing to do with where I live within the state.  I refuse to play the NIMBY game if it means trying to block the right thing for the state as a whole.  My morals don't blow with the wind like that.

Bottom line: If the state only needs two campuses because of reduced demand, then it makes sense to stop throwing money out the window.  If the state is content to keep campuses open and lose millions of dollars, then great for Lyndon.  Sine Vermont has NEVER supported its colleges above the bare minimum, I am not sure why things are about to change in this economic climate.  But keep dreaming...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

Zand said:


> Jeb Spaulding just announced the schools will not close in the next year.



Unfortunately, the damage is done.  Nobody in their right mind would send their kid to LSC or Johnson now.  If you thought that the deficit was bad this year, just wait until next year.  Spaulding knows it - but he is appeasing the politicians in the area.  One year from now he will be saying, "I told you so."


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Unfortunately, *the damage is done.  Nobody in their right mind would send their kid to LSC or Johnson now. *



Maybe the acceptance rate will go from 95% to 100%.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Take a year to restructure?  Isn't that what they are doing now?  Isn't that what they did when they consolidated Johnson and Lyndon?
> 
> The problem is that you believe that there is some sort of magical land of unicorns and rainbows if the right administrator could just find it.  That is nonsense.  The demographics are what they are and there is nothing that can be done about it.
> 
> ...



You're clearly trying to pick a fight.  You're now attributing arguments and things to me that I have not said just so you can continue to rant.  

As said, the proposal is withdrawn.  They will work towards something.  I offered my input to the BOT and powers-to-be and am interested in saving 500 jobs (which as the State Economist said really becomes 2,000 when you consider the ripple effect) and the school.  You're spinning your wheels here.  #winning.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

It’s easy for an out of state person, rather than a genuine taxpayer, to expect the money to magically appear, I suppose.

But pray tell, what is your solution?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

_But Spaulding also cautioned in his announcement that “the current configuration of the Vermont State Colleges is not sustainable; it cannot continue for long.”_

Translation:  We will throw some federal COVID-19 money at the problem and will see you in a year.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 22, 2020)

Your NEK is a mess up there.  Kingdom trails was gutted because of the hurt feelings of a couple land owners, Burke is a mess because of fraudulent owners and now your college is going away.  I guess you locals will finally get what you want.  Peace and quiet.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Your NEK is a mess up there.  Kingdom trails was gutted because of the hurt feelings of a couple land owners, Burke is a mess because of fraudulent owners and now your college is going away.  I guess you locals will finally get what you want.  Peace and quiet.



Losing the college is a genuine tragedy for the local area.  Sadly, it is all going to boil down to which town convinces the state to keep a campus.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Losing the college is a genuine tragedy for the local area.  Sadly, it is all going to boil down to which town convinces the state to keep a campus.



About half the meteorologists in New England have passed through LSU at one time or another.  It is one of the best programs for that field in the country.  That alone is a huge loss.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

Stanford apparently also snagged COVID19 relief $$$$ for itself.  

They announced they're returning it to the Federal government today.  Operation Shame is working.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> About half the meteorologists in New England have passed through LSU at one time or another.  It is one of the best programs for that field in the country.  That alone is a huge loss.



It is a shell of its former self.  There is only one full professor in the entire department.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stanford apparently also snagged COVID19 relief $$$$ for itself.
> 
> They announced they're returning it to the Federal government today.  Operation Shame is working.



Do you think that Howard University will return their $13 million?  Their endowment is about $700 million.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

Trailboss, it’s interesting that you are CONSTANTLY complaining about Vermont’s high tax burden on this forum, but have taken a position that can only increase taxpayer burden.  As I said, as painful as it is to see a school closure, my morals don’t shift with the wind.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Do you think that Howard University will return their $13 million?  Their endowment is about $700 million.




I doubt it.   They should of course, but they know they're bulletproof.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Trailboss, it’s interesting that you are CONSTANTLY complaining about Vermont’s high tax burden on this forum, but have taken a position that can only increase taxpayer burden.  As I said, as painful as it is to see a school closure, my morals don’t shift with the wind.



Keep trolling.  I am not going to feed your trolling.  I have NOT offered any solutions here.  Instead, my focus has been on advocating for my community and the LSC community over the last six days by writing the powers-to-be and engaging.  

And morals?  You sure you want to go there?  What have YOU done to help the situation other than come in here and rant and troll folks?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I have NOT offered any solutions here.



Bingo.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Bingo.



At least you have stopped inserting pages upon pages of your comments into my mouth.  You've just taken my comments out of context completely.  You're still trolling and you know we do not allow that here.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> At least you have stopped inserting pages upon pages of your comments into my mouth.  You've just taken my comments out of context completely.  You're still trolling and you know we do not allow that here.



Then give me a solution.  If you’ve got nothing, just be honest about it.  Of the two of us, I’m the only one who has provided a solution for keeping the college open.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Then give me a solution.  If you’ve got nothing, just be honest about it.  Of the two of us, I’m the only one who has provided a solution for keeping the college open.


What part of him not wanting to argue with you do you not understand?

FFS everyday lately you've been trying to find something to argue and debate people over.  Don't you get enough of that in the courtroom?   Not sure you realize just how annoying you're being.

Give it a rest already

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

I’m not looking for an argument.  Quite the opposite.  I’m looking for a solution.  That’s a rather important component of keeping the college open.  So far... crickets...


----------



## NYDB (Apr 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Do you think that Howard University will return their $13 million?  Their endowment is about $700 million.





BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt it.   They should of course, but they know they're bulletproof.



Hmm..I wonder why you guys would pick that university to single out.  There must be a reason.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> *Hmm..I wonder why you guys would pick that university to single out.  There must be a reason.*



Did you miss the part where in this very same thread we first criticized both Harvard University & Stanford University for taking the exact same COVID19 relief money? 

But sure, you go right ahead & do your little self-righteous, low self-esteem boosting, Social Justice Warrior, back-patting thing.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Hmm..I wonder why you guys would pick that university to single out.  There must be a reason.



Ah, yes.  The soft bigotry of low expectations.  Surely they need the Covid-19 money with a $700 million endowment, eh?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

Princeton joins the shame train, announces tonight it now wont take the Federal COVID19 relief money.

Princeton's endowment is......

_((((((checks notes)))))  _

> $26 BILLION.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 22, 2020)

Related to colleges being screwed going forward, SNHU is offering free tuition for all incoming freshman, and lowering tuition to  10K per year going forward. Will others follow?

https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/...rn-new-hampshire-university-to-offer-10k.html

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> Related to colleges being screwed going forward, *SNHU is offering free tuition for all incoming freshman, and lowering tuition to  10K per year going forward. *Will others follow?
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/...rn-new-hampshire-university-to-offer-10k.html



This seems like another problem school.  They spend over $125M a year "advertising" to get kids, & depending on source their acceptance rate is about 80% to over 90%.  One cannot imagine the quality of education is stellar.  And the above strategy must be a volume play, and WTH does that say!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This seems like another problem school.  They spend over $125M a year "advertising" to get kids, & depending on source their acceptance rate is about 80% to over 90%.  One cannot imagine the quality of education is stellar.  And the above strategy must be a volume play, and WTH does that say!



This puts their tuition well below Lyndon’s out of state tuition.  When you factor in the free year, a four year degree is about $30,000 at SNHU versus $100,000 at Lyndon.  Remind me again how an already broke Lyndon is supposed to compete with this?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I think Lyndon needs to reassess their finances and get their house in order. I don't feel bad for them, profiteering off student loans.


I'm confused.  Lyndon is not profitable and it's typically a combination of the federal government and banks profiting off the loans, not the university. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 23, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Now, maybe it is me who is confused. I see colleges as a factory to print money. Guaranteed funds coming in all the time, federally backed student loans, buildings all built with grants to get someone's name on a placard, no long term debt, no property taxes, they set their prices and don't negotiate them down, though they may find a scholarship or grant money somewhere. And all these bright minds can't keep a fiscal checkbook.
> 
> Am I assuming anything in error here?



Missing a few things like over paid admin and an over abundance of them. Also not sure of their enrollment numbers. A lot of schools give out "scholarships" that really are just discounts to get more students enrolled. A lot of state schools don't get the money from alum as do the Harvards, Princetons and Howards of the world.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Now, maybe it is me who is confused. I see colleges as a factory to print money. Guaranteed funds coming in all the time, federally backed student loans, buildings all built with grants to get someone's name on a placard, no long term debt, no property taxes, they set their prices and don't negotiate them down, though they may find a scholarship or grant money somewhere. And all these bright minds can't keep a fiscal checkbook.
> 
> Am I assuming anything in error here?


I took your statement too literally.  Thought you meant the Universities were profiting off the loans as in being the beneficiaries of the loan interest.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

SNHU, at $10,000 per year, is charging right around what their education is worth.  If Lyndon is to have any hope of succeeding, they need to also appreciate what an NVU-Lyndon diploma is worth and price accordingly.  That will mean some very painful cuts, mostly to administration.  So far they have shown a complete unwillingness to do this.  Keep in mind that administrative jobs are the goal of most professors.  They don't want to see those positions eliminated because they dream about one day landing one of these coveted jobs with not much to do and a fancy title.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2020)

SNHU has the benefit of having an online enrollment of 87,000 students vs 4,000 on campus.  So, that's not really a good apples to apples comparison with NVU.  SNHU could however serve as a model for NVU.  It's taken many years to build that online enrollment at SNHU, so it wouldn't happen for NVU overnight .  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> Related to colleges being screwed going forward, SNHU is offering free tuition for all incoming freshman, and lowering tuition to  10K per year going forward. Will others follow?
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/...rn-new-hampshire-university-to-offer-10k.html
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



Willing to beat that the University of Phoenix does some sort of deal.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Willing to beat that the University of Phoenix does some sort of deal.



Ahhh..... one of the poster child's of problem schools.   Acceptance rate = 100% (not kidding).   Just printing out "college graduates".


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> SNHU has the benefit of having an online enrollment of 87,000 students vs 4,000 on campus.  So, that's not really a good apples to apples comparison with NVU.  SNHU could however serve as a model for NVU.  It's taken many years to build that online enrollment at SNHU, so it wouldn't happen for NVU overnight .



Lyndon has been trying to develop online programs for years.  They just have sucked at it compared to SNHU.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> top heavy admins.



Until watching this Tucker Carlson takedown of large colleges getting COVID19 relief money last night I had no idea many college heads make millions of dollars.  I knew some D1 football & basketball coaches make millions, (which is obscene & tells you all you need to know about how NCAA is now business, not educaton), and while I knew school presidents were paid extremely well, I didn't think they made this much.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Until watching this Tucker Carlson takedown of large colleges getting COVID19 relief money last night I had no idea many college heads make millions of dollars.  I knew some D1 football & basketball coaches make millions, (which is obscene & tells you all you need to know about how NCAA is now business, not educaton), and while I knew school presidents were paid extremely well, I didn't think they made this much.



Love the call out of my Alma Mater, RPI, right off the bat there! Dr Jackson is a world class physicist, no doubt about that at all. Her practices when it comes to leading the school certainly can be questioned over the 20 or so years now she's been the President


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ahhh..... one of the poster child's of problem schools.   Acceptance rate = 100% (not kidding).   Just printing out "college graduates".



Another important thing to look at is graduation rate. Many schools take in close to 100% but have low graduation rates. So lots of freshman not so many seniors. 
Others have a lower acceptance rate but high graduation rate. This can be deceiving as it may be because the grading is easy. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (Apr 23, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Love the call out of my Alma Mater, RPI, right off the bat there! Dr Jackson is a world class physicist, no doubt about that at all. Her practices when it comes to leading the school certainly can be questioned over the 20 or so years now she's been the President



Is RPI not that well known outside of this area? First thing he said about them is it is a "school you've probably never heard of" which seems odd to me. I could be biased though as it was one of the schools I thought about attending and I have several friends that did go there. This did raise my curiosity on how much the president of my alma mater makes. Our current president makes "only" around $1M. Also interesting to me to find out my school has almost a $1B endowment. A discussion I had with our previous VP of Alumni Relations years ago made it sound like they didn't have much. To be honest, I find it disappointing for any school to continually raise their tuition when they have that much money socked away in their endowment fund. My school increased from 21K when I graduated to over 50K now (and that's just tuition). Yet they have the audacity to continue to beg alumni for donations...


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 23, 2020)

I think everyone knows that colleges are dealing with problems of both their own doing (bloated administration) and the feds (student loans unable to be discharged in bankruptcy / backed by the government). 

However, Lyndon is a glorified community college. They aren't cranking out Rhodes scholars. Literally no one is going to lose out on opportunity here, where they can just go to one of many other options available, often for much lower cost as previously highlighted. This problem is solely their (Lyndon the college's) fault. If it was a better college that provided better opportunity, it wouldn't. They have no one to blame but themselves for that. End of story.  

This thread is really seems to be about whether taxpayers should support Lyndon as some sort of charity, that provides jobs and money to the surrounding area. Being VT, I'm sure that idea is popular locally but is ultimately unsustainable.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> I think everyone knows that colleges are dealing with problems of both their own doing (bloated administration) and the feds (student loans unable to be discharged in bankruptcy / backed by the government).
> 
> However, Lyndon is a glorified community college. They aren't cranking out Rhodes scholars. Literally no one is going to lose out on opportunity here, where they can just go to one of many other options available, often for much lower cost as previously highlighted. This problem is solely their (Lyndon the college's) fault. If it was a better college that provided better opportunity, it wouldn't. They have no one to blame but themselves for that. End of story.
> 
> This thread is really seems to be about whether taxpayers should support Lyndon as some sort of charity, that provides jobs and money to the surrounding area. Being VT, I'm sure that idea is popular locally but is ultimately unsustainable.



Apparently knife sales are down.  Hopefully you get a bailout.  

Lyndon is not the only school at issue.  Your POV is pretty limited on the school.  They have some really highly rated programs and they offer a lot of students who do not have the money or opportunities to get ahead.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Lyndon has been trying to develop online programs for years.  They just have sucked at it compared to SNHU.



Again, not really a good comparison.  SNHU is a private school.  I don't know if they are for-profit or not, but it is a completely different model and an apples to oranges comparison.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 23, 2020)

Dude, please, the educational opportunity available at Lyndon and the other schools in question is easily replaceable. They are a second tier niche J school at best, and J schools are literally have one of the worst payoffs of all college degrees. The rest of Lyndon's programs are garbage and overpriced. If they weren't, they wouldn't be failing as a college. 

And PS, glad to see you are taking the course from the DHS school of moderation in how to make cheap shots as if my career matters here. Like Lyndon, I'm sure the program is ranked "pretty highly" (quotes intentional) let all you have to show for it is declining ad revenue for Nick and a dying forum. 

You only care because some friends are going to lose their jobs. Chalk up TB as one who thinks Lyndon should stick around as a charity. How Vermont of you.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Dude, please, the educational opportunity available at Lyndon and the other schools in question is easily replaceable. They are a second tier niche J school at best, and J schools are literally have one of the worst payoffs of all college degrees. The rest of Lyndon's programs are garbage and overpriced. If they weren't, they wouldn't be failing as a college.
> 
> And PS, glad to see you are taking the course from the DHS school of moderation in how to make cheap shots as if my career matters here. Like Lyndon, I'm sure the program is ranked "pretty highly" (quotes intentional) let all you have to show for it is declining ad revenue for Nick and a dying forum.
> 
> You only care because some friends are going to lose their jobs. Chalk up TB as one who thinks Lyndon should stick around as a charity. How Vermont of you.



AR, as always, you are an expert at everything.  Who could argue with you?  Either that or you are really bored.  My money is on the latter.  

And you talk about your business here.  I just remembered that.  No doubt you are a rockstar at it as demonstrated by your prowess of every subject in here.  

Opinions on the topic heard.  Thanks.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, not really a good comparison.  SNHU is a private school.  I don't know if they are for-profit or not, but it is a completely different model and an apples to oranges comparison.



This makes no sense.  They are both poorly ranked northern New England colleges that have attempted to make up for declining enrollment by developing online programs.  One school succeeded very well.  The other (NVU) didn't gain nearly the same traction.  Both schools had equal opportunity to pursue this path.

Actually, it is about as apples to apples as you can get.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> AR, as always, you are an expert at everything.  Who could argue with you?  Either that or you are really bored.  My money is on the latter.
> 
> And you talk about your business here.  I just remembered that.  No doubt you are a rockstar at it as demonstrated by your prowess of every subject in here.
> 
> Opinions on the topic heard.  Thanks.



Let's be honest.  You CONSTANTLY harp on the tax burden that Vermonter's face.  And yet in this instance you are turning a blind eye to the obvious consequences of keeping several campuses open rather than consolidating in order to stop losing money.

It's absolutely fair to call you out on this hypocrisy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> They have some really highly rated programs and they offer a lot of students who do not have the money or opportunities to get ahead.



Like what?  Their major claim to fame, atmospheric sciences, has only one full professor.  He graduated from... Plymouth State.  That's hardly a blueprint for national acclaim.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Is RPI not that well known outside of this area? First thing he said about them is it is a "school you've probably never heard of" which seems odd to me.



I suspect Carlson's probably correct outside the northeast.  I had never heard of R.P.I. until I started following NCAA hockey, as they usually have a pretty decent hockey team.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> However, *Lyndon is a glorified community college. They aren't cranking out Rhodes scholars. Literally no one is going to lose out on opportunity here, where they can just go to one of many other options available, often for much lower cost as previously highlighted.* This problem is solely their (Lyndon the college's) fault. If it was a better college that provided better opportunity, it wouldn't. They have no one to blame but themselves for that. End of story.



The fact these are not the greatest schools & are relatively expensive in that context has been mentioned, as has bloated admin.   But I wonder if cultural change to Vermont itself could also be to blame?  

What do I mean by this.   

It used to be that Vermonters were like pets with electric collars, and the border of Vermont was the electric fence.  Vermonters didn't travel & Vermonters didn't leave.  When I moved to n.VT over 20 years ago, I was shocked how many born & raised Vermonters had never been to Montreal, a beautiful city with great culture, activities, and experiences, even though it was literally an hour (or less) from their home.  To someone from New Jersey, this seemed beyond bizarre.   And while I admit I may be 100% wrong on this point, my sense is that this is no longer the case.  That young (or young'ish) Vermonters are given to travel, and no longer think it impossible to leave Vermont's borders, either to attend college or perhaps even to leave forever.  In that scenario, you can imagine these colleges losing the ability to attract the 17 year old Vermonters who were previously their bread-and-butter.  If I'm correct on that cultural shift, they're doomed by this as well as all the prior reasons mentioned.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

It may have more to do with the fact that there just aren't many opportunities in Vermont for young people due in large part to the tax burden on both people and businesses.  If you know that you are going to leave for work, why not go to college and make connections in a part of the country that you want to live in.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2020)

My understanding more than leaving for other schools out of state, the primary contributor is a reduction in school aged children in the state.  Those who graduate high school are still attending college at the same rate, there's just fewer graduates to attract to the state schools.

Total number of students was 106,341 in 1997.  By 2015 that number had dropped to 84,519 and continues to drop.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> My understanding more than leaving for other schools out of state, the primary contributor is a reduction in school aged children in the state.  Those who graduate high school are still attending college at the same rate, there's just fewer graduates to attract to the state schools.
> 
> Total number of students was 106,341 in 1997.  By 2015 that number had dropped to 84,519 and continues to drop.



That is a very good point.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This makes no sense.  They are both poorly ranked northern New England colleges that have attempted to make up for declining enrollment by developing online programs.  One school succeeded very well.  The other (NVU) didn't gain nearly the same traction.  Both schools had equal opportunity to pursue this path.
> 
> Actually, it is about as apples to apples as you can get.



NVU's online program started about two years ago; SNHU has been in it since 1995.  Big difference.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Let's be honest.  You CONSTANTLY harp on the tax burden that Vermonter's face.  And yet in this instance you are turning a blind eye to the obvious consequences of keeping several campuses open rather than consolidating in order to stop losing money.
> 
> It's absolutely fair to call you out on this hypocrisy.



Hypocrisy?  No.  You just yelling?  Yes.  Again, you're attributing positions to me that I don't have.  The tax burden is an issue, yes, but nowhere in this thread have I said that the solution is to up taxes.  I don't pretend to have all the answers to this issue, especially considering that this crisis is six days old.  

And, more to the point, you're using me as a strawman for your arguments.  Frankly, I stopped listening to you like five pages back because it was you talking non-stop and making positions and arguments up that you thought I said when I didn't.  

I don't see how losing 500 jobs, which actually becomes 2,000 jobs when you consider the ripple effect (and before you nitpick that to death, that is what Vermont's economist said to the Vermont Senate the other day) in the most rural areas of the state is at all a good thing.  It only makes a bleak situation much worse.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 23, 2020)

To further your hypocrisy, you left that community and took your money with it. That is at least a couple jobs lost given YOUR career. But the college must stay to save jobs? 

Sorry bud, but if you can do it, so can the college. At least you aren't a failure.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

Ah, I see you're back!  No doubt you've already figured out how to fix them.  



AdironRider said:


> Yeah man we get it, you are totally cool with the State continuing to bail out your friends / family. I'm sure the people you know / benefit aren't wasting a cent.



That's not my point.  Not my argument.  See my point about strawman.  That's what you're doing here.  I am not saying the system is perfect as it is.  Far from it.  Frankly, I have not talked much about it in here because what little focus and energy I have left has been spent working with folks, be it from a distance, to help save the schools (they are saved for now) and now to talk about ideas to move forward.  I don't see any point in arguing, or being yelled at, in here.  



> To further your hypocrisy, you left that community and took your money with it. That is at least a couple jobs lost given YOUR career. But the college must stay to save jobs?



So in a different venue, someone made this point the other day.  I'll say to you what I said to him and that is this is a cheap shot and you know it.  Yes, we left in large part because of my wife's residency.  Yes, we left because of other issues.  That said, I have put time, effort, and money into helping my community at home--be it Burke Mountain (no doubt I will hear your unsolicited opinions about that mountain's situation as you are the authority on running ski areas) or now LSC.  The larger point, about taking our revenue with us, is true, but at last check I recall you did the same.  The key difference being I am engaging folks back home and offering help while you are ranting in here.

And yet I have not heard your brilliant advice on what these schools need to do to remain open.  I'm disappointed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> NVU's online program started about two years ago; SNHU has been in it since 1995.  Big difference.



It is a big difference.  One college was visionary.  The other wasn't.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> The tax burden is an issue, yes, but nowhere in this thread have I said that the solution is to up taxes.  I don't pretend to have all the answers to this issue, especially considering that this crisis is six days old.



You admitted that for just the next year the state is going to have to come up with $25 million.  And that's for one year.  So, yeah, you have said that, at least for the time being, the solution is up to taxes.  The college has been trying to figure out for YEARS a way around that.  And so far nobody has made it work.  That ought to tell you something - especially as the demographics are projected to get worse.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It is a big difference.  One college was visionary.  The other wasn't.



Your point was that they are apples to apples.  Mine is that you can't compare these programs because one has been in existence since 1995 and they have a 23 year head start.  But you changed the point so that you were right.  

And SNHU is private.  LSC/Johnson/JSC are not.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> And yet I have not heard your brilliant advice on what these schools need to do to remain open.  I'm disappointed.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  If neither of you can come up with a solution, and nobody in the state college system has come up with a solution, doesn't that tell you something?  Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> You admitted that for just the next year the state is going to have to come up with $25 million.  And that's for one year.  So, yeah, you have set that at least for the time being the solution is up to taxes.  The college has been trying to figure out for YEARS a way around that.  And so far nobody has made it work.  That ought to tell you something - especially as the demographics are projected to get worse.



Jesus Christ.  You are going back to something I quoted THREE days ago?  And even then you still DON'T get the point.  If you stopped talking for two minutes and at least TRIED to read what others said then we'd have more constructive conversations.  

My original point, again, for the FOURTH time now as that JEB SPAULDING SAID HE NEEDS $25 MILLION.  Not my statement.  My argument, which now is moot, was that EITHER WAY VSC NEEDS $25 MILLION, so find the bridge funding and take the year to regroup.  But that never fits YOUR arguments so you continue to ignore it.  

And if you actually READ what I said, you'd see that the VSC, as well as the Legislature, contemplate using a portion of the $1.2 BILLION THAT THE FEDS GAVE VERMONT to deal with COVID-19.  That's where the conversation has gone...with the condition that reforms really happen.  

While those are indeed taxes, you were once again saying that I said that the State needs to tax.  I have not said that here.  That was not my point.  Don't spin what I say.  

You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  If neither of you can come up with a solution, and nobody in the state college system has come up with a solution, doesn't that tell you something?  Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.



You think that a decades-long issue is solved by one person in six days?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You think that a decades-long issue is solved by one person in six days?



No.  A decades long issue that nobody has come remotely close to solving is what it is.  People with just a little bit of common sense can see that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Jesus Christ.  You are going back to something I quoted THREE days ago?  And even then you still DON'T get the point.  If you stopped talking for two minutes and at least TRIED to read what others said then we'd have more constructive conversations.
> 
> My original point, again, for the FOURTH time now as that JEB SPAULDING SAID HE NEEDS $25 MILLION.  Not my statement.  My argument, which now is moot, was that EITHER WAY VSC NEEDS $25 MILLION, so find the bridge funding and take the year to regroup.  But that never fits YOUR arguments so you continue to ignore it.
> 
> ...



You are honestly embarrassing yourself now.  I have explained how your argument that they might as well spend $25 million to go one more year makes no sense.  In order for it to make sense the cost of closing - or keeping open the school - would have to be zero dollars.  Anything more than that is a complete waste of money.  If you don't understand it, so be it.

As for the COVID-19 money, you do understand that the feds did not earmark it for the college, right?  So if it is flushed down the college drain it will most definitely cost state taxpayers money.  That's an incredibly simple concept to grasp.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> You are honestly embarrassing yourself now.  I have explained how your argument that they might as well spend $25 million to go one more year makes no sense.  In order for it to make sense the cost of closing - or keeping open the school - would have to be zero dollars.  Anything more than that is a complete waste of money.  If you don't understand it, so be it.
> 
> As for the COVID-19 money, you do understand that the feds did not earmark it for the college, right?  So if it is flushed down the college drain it will most definitely cost state taxpayers money.  That's an incredibly simple concept to grasp.



I see you're going for a fifth time.  And still making up new arguments on both sides.  Honestly, it is fucking weird.  Don't you have a family to spend time with rather than fill pages upon pages of ranting in here?  

And as to the COVID-19 money, as I said, the Vermont Senate discussed that the feds gave them the $1.2 billion and that the Senate is deciding how to spend it.  And, as I said, their condition is that there be actual reform.  Whether it works or not is for another day.  That's where you have moved.  I merely repeated where things were with the process.  You just are looking to spin them into an argument for something to do.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't you have a family to spend time with rather than fill pages upon pages of ranting in here?


Ah, the ad hominem attack.  The calling card of a person who has no substantive argument.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Ah, the ad hominem attack.  The calling card of a person who has no substantive argument.



Because again I DON'T want to argue with you.  Frankly, nobody does.  If you cared to look you'd see that it's pretty much just you and AR talking now.  I've got other things to do than have you try to argue with me.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Because again I DON'T want to argue with you.  Frankly, nobody does.  If you cared to look you'd see that it's pretty much just you and AR talking now.  I've got other things to do than have you try to argue with me.



Nobody is arguing with anybody.  That's your problem.  You see genuine debate and the exchange of differing ideas as "argument."  That's the calling card of someone who doesn't believe they have facts in support of their position.  Kind of like throwing out ad hominem attacks.  If the debate offends your sensibilities, please for your own sake step aside.  The rest of us can take it from here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Nobody is arguing with anybody.  That's your problem.  You see genuine debate as "argument."  That's the calling card of someone who doesn't believe they have facts in support of their position.  Kind of like throwing out ad hominem attacks.  If the debate offends your sensibilities, please for your own sake step aside.



And you just proved my point.  







Anything else?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

I will await someone who has an actual plan to stem the hemorrhaging of millions of dollars per year.  That will be much more persuasive than just throwing out ad hominem attacks and memes all while complaining about "arguing.".  As of now all I hear are wishes as the school continues to bleed money.  I am looking forward to something with actual substance.

In the meantime I will leave you with a Scottish proverb:

If wishes were horses then beggars would ride,
If turnips were swords I’d have one by my side.
If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans
There would be no need for tinker’s hands!


All the best.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> SNHU has the benefit of having an online enrollment of 87,000 students vs 4,000 on campus.  So, that's not really a good apples to apples comparison with NVU.  SNHU could however serve as a model for NVU.  It's taken many years to build that online enrollment at SNHU, so it wouldn't happen for NVU overnight .
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I see them advertising here in Colorado and when I was visiting California I saw ads there too!  Pretty amazing effort.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> I see them advertising here in Colorado and when I was visiting California I saw ads there too!  Pretty amazing effort.



That's the type of innovation you see when an institution can't just keep tapping the taxpayer well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> I see them advertising here in Colorado and when I was visiting California I saw ads there too!  Pretty amazing effort.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Which one?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> *contemplate using a portion of the $1.2 BILLION THAT THE FEDS GAVE VERMONT to deal with COVID-19.  *



This is a ******* disgrace.  America will be paying for this money-grab fear sham for years to come. 

$1.25 BILLION to a state with only about 600,000 humans, and fewer than 50 total COVID19 deaths.

At some point, I'll feel forced to convert a portion of my portfolio to gold futures.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> I see them advertising here in Colorado and when I was visiting California I saw ads there too! * Pretty amazing effort.*



You too could cover some serious landscape with adverts of your choice if you spent $130 Million per year on it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is a ******* disgrace.  America will be paying for this money-grab fear sham for years to come.
> 
> $1.25 BILLION to a state with only about 600,000 humans, and fewer than 50 total COVID19 deaths.
> 
> At some point, I'll feel forced to convert a portion of my portfolio to gold futures.



That seemed like a lot to me as well.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 24, 2020)

Janel Hanrahan, an Associate Professor and Department Chair of the Atmospheric Sciences program, has offered an interesting argument to keep NVU-Lyndon open.  Her argument was published in a letter to the local newspaper.

Her argument: Keeping NVU-Lyndon open is necessary to combat climate change.

Her letter is a rambling affair, so I will summarize:
1)  The Climate Consensus is a department-led student climate science outreach group that works to increase climate literacy among the general public.  Closing the campus will bring this work to an abrupt end.
2) Closing the campus is "silencing those who might otherwise change the world."

A couple of thoughts: 
1) Ms. Hanrahan refers to the Atmospheric Sciences program as "nationally recognized."  The Titanic was nationally recognized.  Big deal.   She conveniently leaves out any sort of ranking, which ought to tell you something.  Another red flag is that this "nationally recognized" program is chaired by a mere Associate Professor.  

2) Her entire argument is based on a false premise - that the Atmospheric Science program would just disappear.  A consolidated campus could continue to offer the program and perhaps even add another adjunct or associate professor.

3) Her argument is based on an appeal to emotion - that closing the department would somehow contribute to our planet suffering climatological devastation.  "We could have saved the planet if only those kids at Lyndon were allowed to do their research!"

4) Like most arguments I have seen in favor of keeping the campus open, hers involves a heavy dose of hypocrisy.  If we want to combat climate change, consolidating the colleges onto one campus is exactly the type of action that is needed.  The carbon footprint of three campuses is much greater.

What's most troubling is that the chair of the department's best argument isn't good science.  If she can't even make a good argument that is absent of logical fallacies, who can?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2020)

Ms. Hanrahan is teaching your child if you send your kid to that overpriced, failing school.

Here's the truth, our student loan debt sham will eventually end, and with it, the life of probably hundreds of crummy, indistinguishable colleges.  COVID19 has hugely boosted national debt, likely accelerating that end. America's debt will now exceed GDP for the first time in the life of anyone reading this.  Happily, shortly after the death of hundreds of crappy colleges will coincide with the time America's no longer short important jobs like carpenters, electricians, ironworkers, mechanics, plumbers, and the like.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The fact these are not the greatest schools & are relatively expensive in that context has been mentioned, as has bloated admin.   But I wonder if cultural change to Vermont itself could also be to blame?
> 
> What do I mean by this.
> 
> It used to be that Vermonters were like pets with electric collars, and the border of Vermont was the electric fence.  Vermonters didn't travel & Vermonters didn't leave.  When I moved to n.VT over 20 years ago, I was shocked how many born & raised Vermonters had never been to Montreal, a beautiful city with great culture, activities, and experiences, even though it was literally an hour (or less) from their home.  To someone from New Jersey, this seemed beyond bizarre.   And while I admit I may be 100% wrong on this point, my sense is that this is no longer the case.  That young (or young'ish) Vermonters are given to travel, and no longer think it impossible to leave Vermont's borders, either to attend college or perhaps even to leave forever.  In that scenario, you can imagine these colleges losing the ability to attract the 17 year old Vermonters who were previously their bread-and-butter.  If I'm correct on that cultural shift, they're doomed by this as well as all the prior reasons mentioned.



You have no clue!  I am from NEK and 90% of my graduating class moved away as in out of state.  Same with my siblings classmates. That electric fence analogy is dumb ass talk!  Do some people stay absolutely which is that case any where you go.  

In fact my home town, over the years I have been gone has actually experienced out of staters looking for that quiet little town.

The whole Montreal thing!  There are many people who could give a rats ass about that culture or their activities!  I have been there because I have relatives there.  I also like visiting different parts of that city as well, but I certainly do not expect everyone should visit there.  Heck there are an estimated 16 million skiers in this country why aren’t the rest of the Americans skiing,  I know a lot of people in Colorado that do not ski just like Vermont.

Also, I went to LSC and I bet I do better pay wise than some would think here based on discussions.  While a school can definitely help with higher pay, it is the individual that takes what ever degree and turn it into a career or some path that makes you happy!  LSC was a great stepping stone for me because it was with in commuting distance, had the degree program I wanted and my military benefit could pay for it!  It served a purpose because I sure as hell was not getting in Harvard , Yale, Dartmouth, Cornell etc.  I was able to get into UVM but it costs 3-4 times as much and my parents income was just over the limit to get financial aide.  So ..... LSC served as my spring board and I do not regret it!

I feel bad for those who would prefer a local school and now are not going to have that luxury.

Do I think the tuition is too high now?  Absolutely!  I think there is some restructuring that could have taken place and that 9 million that Harvard does not want could have settled some of the financial issues.  This is more tongue and cheek!

Sorry for the rant!



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 24, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It may have more to do with the fact that there just aren't many opportunities in Vermont for young people due in large part to the tax burden on both people and businesses.  If you know that you are going to leave for work, why not go to college and make connections in a part of the country that you want to live in.



Because not everyone can uproot and move then start attending school elsewhere without family support!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Which one?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Huh?  What are you asking?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> You have no clue!  I am from NEK and *90% of my graduating class moved away as in out of state. * Same with my siblings classmates. That electric fence analogy is dumb ass talk!  Do some people stay absolutely which is that case any where you go.



Which was precisely my argument.   

So having "no clue" & being a "dumbass" here is about you not reading for content.  I dont know where you'd find the data, but I'd stake my life on a higher percentage of Vermonters in 2020 leaving for out-of-state colleges than Vermonters in 1980 or 1990, etc.. 

And I stand by my comment regarding an unusual proportion of northern Vermonters not being well-traveled 20 or 25 years ago (I say that stands even today versus much of our nation, though not as dramatically).  It shocked me how many people I met who never left the country, never been to Europe, etc.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Huh?  What are you asking?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



SNHU advertisements I presume?  Or did you see NVU advertisements?  One common theme over the past week I have heard from the VSC community is the lack of advertising outside of the state.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which was precisely my argument.
> 
> So having "no clue" & being a "dumbass" here is about you not reading for content.  I dont know where you'd find the data, but I'd stake my life on a higher percentage of Vermonters in 2020 leaving for out-of-state colleges than Vermonters in 1980 or 1990, etc..
> 
> And I stand by my comment regarding an unusual proportion of northern Vermonters not being well-traveled 20 or 25 years ago (I say that stands even today versus much of our nation, though not as dramatically).  It shocked me how many people I met who never left the country, never been to Europe, etc.



I left VT 39 years ago for the military then returned for 3 years then left for good!  In fact my entire family outside of my parents left.  A large number of my friend and relatives left as well.  I think you are over generalizing!

This is a general United States article that does not specifically call out VT but as you can see that there are many Americans that have not even traveled out of their own state let alone the US.  And who cares!  There is nothing wrong with that - myself well ya it does not work but I like to see shit and experience the outdoors.  But not everyone does the same thing - that would be boring!

As far as Vermonter’s leaving for out of state schools well that did not start happening recently - it was happening 49’years ago too!




https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealan...nd-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## 1dog (Apr 27, 2020)

Isn't the basic argument that free will and free markets - even in higher ed, should win the day? Example:

UMASS has over 400 staff in admin at $200K or higher - not one has been laid-off. Heck not one state employee has in MA - are all essential?

In a free market higher ed, where taxpayer money is not supporting the cost, that would never happen - heck it might never even get that high in terms of the number of wage-earners being paid that much  - not to work.

On-line ed is going to take the place ( or a at least part of) of a lot of local schools curriculum  - some like SUNH- appear to be capitalizing on that trend. Others, not so much. What's the Adam Smith quote? 'Creative destruction'. 

Inefficient Statist/Big government money just slows that process down - and places our kids and grandkids generations in unsustainable debt.


No one has seen any nation, free or otherwise, print itself out  of economic hardships - unless it  is short term and it pays the debt off. We did that after 1945, not since. But then we had gold - if we didn't have a sufficient amount, we couldn't print dollars. 

That ended in 1971. Congress and Nixon.


----------



## 1dog (Apr 27, 2020)

Isn't the basic argument that free will and free markets - even in higher ed, should win the day? Example:

UMASS has over 400 staff in admin at $200K or higher - not one has been laid-off. Heck not one state employee has in MA - are all essential?

In a free market higher ed, where taxpayer money is not supporting the cost, that would never happen - heck it might never even get that high in terms of the number of wage-earners being paid that much  - not to work.

On-line ed is going to take the place ( or a at least part of) of a lot of local schools curriculum  - some like SUNH- appear to be capitalizing on that trend. Others, not so much. What's the Adam Smith quote? 'Creative destruction'. 

Inefficient Statist/Big government money just slows that process down - and places our kids and grandkids generations in unsustainable debt.


No one has seen any nation, free or otherwise, print itself out  of economic hardships - unless it  is short term and it pays the debt off. We did that after 1945, not since. But then we had gold - if we didn't have a sufficient amount, we couldn't print dollars. 

That ended in 1971. Congress and Nixon.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 28, 2020)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/S...llor-of-Vermont-State-Colleges-570009051.html

Jeb Spaulding resigning

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> https://www.wcax.com/content/news/S...llor-of-Vermont-State-Colleges-570009051.html
> 
> Jeb Spaulding resigning
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



No surprise.  He put himself into an impossible position.  

Many are celebrating, but the issues remain.  We will see what happens.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2020)

Fiscally responsible & reasonable individual loses job is so phenomenally new Vermont.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Fiscally responsible & reasonable individual loses job is so phenomenally new Vermont.



I think that is being generous for Jeb.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 30, 2020)

https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/30/castleton-university-president-resigns/

And note the NVU president is also looking for a job. You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2020)

JoeB-Z said:


> https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/30/castleton-university-president-resigns/
> 
> And note the NVU president is also looking for a job. You can't make this stuff up.



Well, the NVU President put feelers out a while back.  

Shocking that the Chancellor decided to put stable CSU into chaos by unilaterally deciding he was going to fire the President and then move the NVU President over there.  That obviously backfired badly.  So now there are FOUR institutions with a serious clouds over their heads.  

A FOIA also revealed that the Chancellor had been warning the Governor and Legislature of issues a month before he unveiled the controversial plan.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2020)

An interesting quote from a letter to the editor in today’s newspaper:

_According to data from the U.S. Department of Education (IPEDS), the residential Vermont State Colleges (Castleton, Northern Vermont University, and Vermont Technical College) spend 66% more per student on administrative expenses than other comparable colleges. When the additional costs of the chancellor’s office are added, the contrasts are even more extreme._


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 10, 2020)

The bad news just keeps coming for NVU-Lyndon.

From VTDigger:
_The most precipitous enrollment downswings are forecast at Northern Vermont University, where school officials say that headcounts could drop by as much as 30% next year. Pearce’s analysis notes that, as of May 15, only 99 accepted applicants at NVU-Lyndon had submitted deposits for the fall. That’s exactly half as many as had made deposits by this time last year._

https://vtdigger.org/2020/06/09/rep...-30-million-or-more-to-get-through-next-year/

Let's be honest.  It's over for NVU-Lyndon.  The people in denial about that reality are the last couple of people left at the party wondering who turned out the lights.


----------

