# Superpasses: more crowds?



## Greg (Dec 5, 2019)

Wow. First thread I've started in I don't know how long! Been lurking a lot this preseason as I haven't been as pumped to ski as I've been this season in several for various reasons. Anyway, reading a lot of superpass hate...mostly about leading to more crowds, etc. Not sure I get all that. Have cheaper multi-mountain passes really lead to bigger crowds? Discuss!

I plan to ski Mount Snow this Saturday (day tickets bought; not an Epic pass holder) and fully expect it to be busy. Hello, there is early season snow in the 'burbs so it should be expected. I have a plan to ski the mountain in a way to make it an overall good experience so no real concerns here...


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2019)

Fully expecting it to be crowded is my strategy too. 

Plus I try not to ski megapass mountains on weekends.

Killington early March last season:



The line for the gondola at K1 stretches behind the lodge going towards SS.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 5, 2019)

^that's a pretty extreme example tho. as a m-f 9-5er, my new england skiing is exclusively weekends (vacation time is for airplane skiing), and is predominantly ikon. i tend to start my day at first chair and knock out around 2. its rare to see this kind of crowding at the ikon destinations in my experience over the past few years of ikon and max pass. the worst random saturday crowding ive experienced was actually at stowe last year when using my skiVT pack ticket. like 20+ min for the forerunner most of the day

as you said greg, its about how you approach the mountain. avoid heavily congested lifts and lodges. start early. get to more remote parts of the place. ski thru lunch. etc. 31000 is an awful lot of AZ posts.


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## Greg (Dec 5, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Plus I try not to ski megapass mountains on weekends.



Kind of my point in starting the thread. Do you avoid these mountains more now on weekends because of megapasses? Are these mountains really that much more crowded now as a result?



KustyTheKlown said:


> 31000 is an awful lot of AZ posts.



Lol. Well, there was a time here when I felt like I was communicating with myself more than anyone else...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 5, 2019)

Select weekends. This weekend I would very intentionally avoid hunter and mount snow, and I’m going to magic Saturday bc it’s magic, but also because I think Stratton will be a nightmare Saturday after the big storm that also put snow down in people’s backyards. First week of December and snow in the Boston and nyc areas. Trouble.


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2019)

Greg said:


> Kind of my point in starting the thread. Do you avoid these mountains more now on weekends because of megapasses? Are these mountains really that much more crowded now as a result?



Not really. That pic was taken on my youngest son's last high school skiing trip last season. And I'll bet people remember other weekends as bad or worse. For me at least it's about the attitude adjustment. And skiing until you drop on good or uncrowded days.

I don't like mega passes because there will inevitably be losers in this game and there will be a lot of eastern resorts lost because they just can't compete. To me that is totally unnecessary and undesirable.


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## cdskier (Dec 5, 2019)

JimG. said:


> The line for the gondola at K1 stretches behind the lodge going towards SS.



To be completely fair...I remember being at K with lines like that years ago (I haven't skied at K since at least 2011 and it was sometime before that).

In all honesty, I don't think we have enough data to know whether the "crowding from megapass" phenomena is accurate or not. Ikon is exceptionally new to the scene. And you had a really good snow year last year. I think you need a good 3-5 years of having Epic and Ikon and any other megapasses compete to see how things ultimately shake out. If crowding becomes a valid concern, you'll inevitably see some people go elsewhere.

It is kind of funny/ironic. On one hand we continually complain that we don't have enough people in the sport and need to grow the sport. Then we go and complain that resorts are "too crowded". Which is it?


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2019)

cdskier said:


> To be completely fair...I remember being at K with lines like that years ago (I haven't skied at K since at least 2011 and it was sometime before that).
> 
> In all honesty, I don't think we have enough data to know whether the "crowding from megapass" phenomena is accurate or not. Ikon is exceptionally new to the scene. And you had a really good snow year last year. I think you need a good 3-5 years of having Epic and Ikon and any other megapasses compete to see how things ultimately shake out. If crowding becomes a valid concern, you'll inevitably see some people go elsewhere.
> 
> It is kind of funny/ironic. On one hand we continually complain that we don't have enough people in the sport and need to grow the sport. Then we go and complain that resorts are "too crowded". Which is it?



Again, in my way of thinking it's never too crowded. I'm glad to see folks out skiing and having fun. Path of least resistance. If my favorite trails or trees are busy I just go ski something else. I find a lot of fun lines I would never know about if I was skiing my usual stuff.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 5, 2019)

Mount snow crowds this weekend will be EPIC for sure.


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2019)

cdskier said:


> It is kind of funny/ironic. On one hand we continually complain that we don't have enough people in the sport and need to grow the sport. Then we go and complain that resorts are "too crowded". Which is it?



I personally have never complained that there aren't enough people in the sport.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 5, 2019)

Greg said:


> *Have cheaper multi-mountain passes really lead to bigger crowds? *



If you ask ski resort CEOs, the answer is, "no".

If you ask most anyone else, the answer is, "yes".

One aspect of this conversation that I do not believe is well-understood by many, is whatever level of "crowding" you perceive from these passes, BOTH are still ramping, IKON far more than EPIC due to its' younger age.  In other words, it's likely getting worse, not better.


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## jimk (Dec 6, 2019)

cdskier said:


> To be completely fair...I remember being at K with lines like that years ago (I haven't skied at K since at least 2011 and it was sometime before that).
> 
> In all honesty, I don't think we have enough data to know whether the "crowding from megapass" phenomena is accurate or not. Ikon is exceptionally new to the scene. And you had a really good snow year last year. I think you need a good 3-5 years of having Epic and Ikon and any other megapasses compete to see how things ultimately shake out. If crowding becomes a valid concern, you'll inevitably see some people go elsewhere.
> 
> It is kind of funny/ironic. On one hand we continually complain that we don't have enough people in the sport and need to grow the sport. Then we go and complain that resorts are "too crowded". Which is it?



I kind of agree with above.  I have memories of horrendous lift lines back in the 1970s skiing in the mid-Atlantic.  Much worse than any lines today.  In recent years I've mostly been skiing out west where the worst back-ups and lines are on powder days because all the eager locals come out.  It's still hard for me to gauge whether crowds are due to mega-passes or just good snow conditions.  Probably a combination of both, but mostly driven by good snow.



BenedictGomez said:


> If you ask ski resort CEOs, the answer is, "no".
> 
> If you ask most anyone else, the answer is, "yes".
> 
> One aspect of this conversation that I do not believe is well-understood by many, is whatever level of "crowding" you perceive from these passes, BOTH are still ramping, IKON far more than EPIC due to its' younger age.  In other words, it's likely getting worse, not better.


Yes skier visits is a fuzzy area, many resorts are very secretive about sharing their skier visits numbers for competition reasons.  Makes it hard to come up with firm evidence that overall numbers are up or just reallocation from many small ski areas to fewer big ones.  But for immediate selfish reasons gotta love the super passes.  I do fear that the little ski areas will suffer...unless they get gobbled up by the big guys and become official feeder hills on same super pass.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 6, 2019)

This is really two issues in regard to crowding.

First, have Superpasses increased the overall number of skiers in the northeast.  I have yet to see evidence that they have done so in a meaningful way.  

If they haven't increased the overall number of skiers, then the issue is whether or not skier patterns have changed.  If skiers are crowding Superpass hills it stands to reason that other hills are LESS crowded.  

One other thing to consider is that more northeast skiers are now going to be skiing outside of New England thanks to these Superpasses.

Short version: It's complicated.


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## drjeff (Dec 6, 2019)

My anecdotal take from the Mount Snow perspective over the last dozen plus years where it's gone from an ASC property to a "restricted" Peak property (with limited days for Peak pass product holders unless you bought the top of the line pass) to an "unrestricted" Peak property (most any Peak pass product vaild the majority of the days each season) to now an EPIC property

Without a doubt, the crowds are noticeably larger, most any day of the season, than they were in the ASC and "restricted" Peak days era. While I don't have any hard data, as someone who has skied Mount Snow the majority of the weekends they're open for the season for close to the last 15 years now, currently, and for the last season or 2 when Peak removed the limited days a season for Mount Snow for most of their pass products, crowd wise it certainly feels like what used to be a "Holiday Week/Weekend crowd" is now a typical weekend crowd (especially if the weather is remotely decent), and a Holiday Week/Weekend crowd sure feels like its 10-15% above what used to be a BIG crowd.  That's just me going by how long the lift lines are, how crowded the base lodges are, how crowded the parking lots are, etc.

Thus far this season, with EPIC now part of of the equation, I have seen some early season weekend days where there were cars in parts of the parking lots that typically don't get used until either the $12 ticket Founder's Day (next Friday the 13th this year) and/or Christmas week crowds, as well as I have already had more rides up the Bluebird this season where it was obvious it was someone who was on the chair with me, first ride on the Bluebird just based on them thinking that they had to lift the bubble up at the top to unload verses letting the chair lift the bubble for you as it does, than I typically have encountered in an entire season the last few years.

While nationally the reported annual skier/rider visits data hasn't fluctuated too much year to year over that time frame, with the fluctuations attributable more to whether it was a "good" or "bad" snow year in various regions of the country that year, I think what it going on is with the multi resort mega passes, you are seeing more and more people who used to spread their days around across a host of resorts, now primarily taking advantage of the resorts solely on their passes for the majority of the season's days on the hill, thus keeping the total annual skiers visits relatively level and at the same time making some resorts that are part of the "mega passes" more crowded.

It will be interesting to see how things are in a few years if the NSAA can accomplish it's goal of adding roughly 5 million annual skier/rider days across the country by 2025 and help grow the sport, as well as how the mega pass situation continues to play out...


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## skiur (Dec 6, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Fully expecting it to be crowded is my strategy too.
> 
> Plus I try not to ski megapass mountains on weekends.
> 
> ...




Yes, the line at K1 can get like that, but go to needles or canyon or north ridge or snowdon triple or lower skyeship or bear quad or south ridge on that day and there is pretty much no line.  Only lifts that get like that are k1, snowdon bubble, ramshead and skye peak quad.


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## jimk (Dec 6, 2019)

Good post DrJ.


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## Greg (Dec 6, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> This is really two issues in regard to crowding.
> 
> First, have Superpasses increased the overall number of skiers in the northeast.  I have yet to see evidence that they have done so in a meaningful way.
> 
> ...



I think this post sums up the situation best. Although drjeff's observations are interesting.

I have an Ikon Base pass. The Vermont offerings are most attractive to me and I like having options if I can swing a trip out West. The early price was hard to beat. I guess we just have to accept the perceived larger crowds which I think it's an okay tradeoff for having such flexibility at a cheap price over the $1K+ single resort passes of the past. I think the well-run feeder hills will do just fine. I spent many years skiing local when the kids were small as they weren't patient enough to make the rides to Vermont regularly. Now that's where they want to go, thank god.

The Ikon also got me to Stratton for the first time already this season. Liked the hill and am looking forward to the trees once everything is fully open. I did buy a day ticket for Mount Snow tomorrow and I will likely ski Berkshire East, Magic, MRG, Snow, Sundown and maybe Hunter on day tickets this season in addition to the Ikon mountains. Perhaps other passholders simply stick to their pass mountains.


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## ironhippy (Dec 6, 2019)

Wait is the OP actually Alpine Zone Greg!?!?!

Amazing, keep up the good work at TGR


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> This is really two issues in regard to crowding.
> 
> First, have Superpasses increased the overall number of skiers in the northeast.  I have yet to see evidence that they have done so in a meaningful way.
> 
> ...



Excellent points that I agree very much with. And without a deep dive into the full data (which none of us have), it is really hard to know what the real story is.

Another point too to consider, how have superpasses impacted pass prices at independent resorts? If some independents lowered their pass prices to "compete", they may see more people buying passes. And if more people buy passes, then they may be more likely to ski more days because "they're already paid for". People that switch from daily tickets to some sort of pass product no longer need to be as selective with which days they ski.


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## farlep99 (Dec 6, 2019)

Here's my experience at Stowe- Stowe has always been very busy on holidays/weekend powder days.  Like everywhere else it's ski on-off M-F.  What has been noticeable to me since Epic is early and late season weekend crowds.  Primarily late season, but it applies to early season (defining this as pre-Christmas).  

I think a big part of this is that you can find really decent deals in the many Stowe hotels/inns + Airbnb in early and late season.  Since ski cost is already covered, you can squeeze a relatively cheap weekend in coming from NY/Boston, etc.  This is most notable in the Spring though.  The Mansfield lot is now typically full right to the end of the season on weekends.  I think Epic has definitely increased the number of crowded weekends.  As far as holiday crowds & lift lines I avoid holidays like the plague.  That's XC ski time for me.


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## FBGM (Dec 6, 2019)

Mega passes are good for skiing. It makes it cheaper for all. 

Few years ago - everybody panicking “skiing is loosing visitors, we need to get more people”

Today - “mega passes suck. To many people. Get off my lawn”


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## abc (Dec 6, 2019)

farlep99 said:


> Here's my experience at Stowe- Stowe has always been very busy on holidays/weekend powder days.  Like everywhere else it's ski on-off M-F.  What has been noticeable to me since Epic is early and late season weekend crowds.  Primarily late season, but it applies to early season (defining this as pre-Christmas).


It's not just Stowe. I was at Squaw Valley last spring. I couldn't believe how far I had to walk from my car to the base! The lot was like 75% full in late April. I've skied Squaw in spring quite a few years, it wasn't nearly half as busy back then.



> I think a big part of this is that you can find really decent deals in the many Stowe hotels/inns + Airbnb in early and late season.  Since ski cost is already covered, you can squeeze a relatively cheap weekend in coming from NY/Boston, etc.  This is most notable in the Spring though.  The Mansfield lot is now typically full right to the end of the season on weekends.  I think Epic has definitely increased the number of crowded weekends.  As far as holiday crowds & lift lines I avoid holidays like the plague.  *That's XC ski time for me*.


I resemble that remark! 

(and the part about taking advantage of cheap'ish lodging in spring)


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *While nationally the reported annual skier/rider visits data hasn't fluctuated too much year to year* over that time frame, with the fluctuations attributable more to whether it was a "good" or "bad" snow year in various regions of the country that year,* I think what it going on is with the multi resort mega passes, you are seeing more and more people who used to spread their days around across a host of resorts, now primarily taking advantage of the resorts solely on their passes for the majority of the season's days* on the hill, *thus keeping the total annual skiers visits relatively level and at the same time making some resorts that are part of the "mega passes" more crowded.*



BINGO

This is exactly how I see it, and I cannot come to any other logical conclusion by crunching the data.  C'est simple.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2019)

FBGM said:


> *Mega passes are good for skiing*.



Unless Mega passes eventually have a material deleterious effect on skier recruitment, which is exactly my hypothesis, and that is because.........



FBGM said:


> * It makes it cheaper for all. *



nothing could be further from the truth.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 6, 2019)

If you support second-tier ski areas, then crowding at the mega-pass resorts is a good thing.  

If the second-tier hills can't compete on season pass price, they can at least compete on crowd level.


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## abc (Dec 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is exactly how I see it, and I cannot come to any other logical conclusion by crunching the data.  C'est simple.


We all "see" it! The the CEO of mountains in the Ikon/Epic pass kept telling us it's not! "It's ONLY because we had a bumper snow year". 

The "numbers": if it's ONLY due to the bumper snow year, skier visit number should rise ACROSS THE BOARD, including mountains NOT affiliated with EPIC/IKON. And the increase "number" should be similar whether it's IKON/EPIC or independent mountains, even feeder hills. But if Jackson and Aspen and Big Sky and Solitude (the list goes on) have bigger percentage increase than non-multi-pass mountains, say Loveland, Mt Rose, Whitefish, we know what the "extra increase" are due to! 

Loveland and A-basin are nearly mirror images of each other apart from their pass affiliation (or lack of in the case of Loveland). Jackson vs. Targhee, Big Sky vs Bridger to a slightly lessor degree. All of those pairs have sizable LOCAL skier contingent, whom the CEO of their respected "suddenly crowded" mountains claimed to be the real cause of the crowding! 

The comparison of percentage increase in skier visit of each pair of mountains would be very telling (if anyone can get their hands on those numbers)


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## mister moose (Dec 6, 2019)

Let's look at some data.



These are the last ten year's national skier visit's.  I'm not sure you can infer anything, as visits have been bobbling 50 - 60,000 nationally for a long time.  Weather, the economy, and ticket prices all figure into the mix.  Back in the 70's it was 45-50,000.

I would think more passes = marginally more skier days, but it will take several years to flush that out of the background noise.

This is a 16% fluctuation over the period.


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## slatham (Dec 6, 2019)

drjeff said:


> My anecdotal take from the Mount Snow perspective over the last dozen plus years where it's gone from an ASC property to a "restricted" Peak property (with limited days for Peak pass product holders unless you bought the top of the line pass) to an "unrestricted" Peak property (most any Peak pass product vaild the majority of the days each season) to now an EPIC property
> 
> Without a doubt, the crowds are noticeably larger, most any day of the season, than they were in the ASC and "restricted" Peak days era. While I don't have any hard data, as someone who has skied Mount Snow the majority of the weekends they're open for the season for close to the last 15 years now, currently, and for the last season or 2 when Peak removed the limited days a season for Mount Snow for most of their pass products, crowd wise it certainly feels like what used to be a "Holiday Week/Weekend crowd" is now a typical weekend crowd (especially if the weather is remotely decent), and a Holiday Week/Weekend crowd sure feels like its 10-15% above what used to be a BIG crowd.  That's just me going by how long the lift lines are, how crowded the base lodges are, how crowded the parking lots are, etc.
> 
> ...



Really interested to get your analysis of the pre/post EPIC crowd situation, once we've had a few weeks of the season to compare.


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## FBGM (Dec 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Unless Mega passes eventually have a material deleterious effect on skier recruitment, which is exactly my hypothesis, and that is because.........
> 
> 
> 
> nothing could be further from the truth.



How is it more expensive? Passes are now dirt cheap, and you can ski more mountains then ever for less then the price of 1 a few years ago. So That means cheaper. 

Pick Stowe for example. Few years back that place was charging like $2k a season pass. Vail buys it. Now Epic one is like $750 and you can ski all the other epic hills within a few hours drive or few hours flight for the same price. It’s cheap!

Now if you’re a dumbass sucker laying window ticket prices. Yeah it’s expensive. But if you’re that dumb you deserve the price. Same goes for food. 

Lodging is cheaper these days then ever with air B and B. Do you know what that is boomer or should we google it together? That’s www.google.com - but you don’t need the www or .com these days, fyi


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## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2019)

It costs more to start skiing. Most new skiers don’t ski enough per year to even make the 750 worth it. New skiers the first few years ski 3 or 4 times a year. Yes the learn to ski first year can be a deal but after that not so much.


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## mister moose (Dec 6, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Killington early March last season:
> 
> View attachment 25727
> 
> The line for the gondola at K1 stretches behind the lodge going towards SS.



That was an exceptional Saturday after a weekday snowstorm on a well forecasted sunny day, not a typical Saturday.


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## cdskier (Dec 6, 2019)

mister moose said:


> I would think more passes = marginally more skier days, but it will take several years to flush that out of the background noise.



Exactly. We simply need more years of data to get an accurate understanding of the impact. Or as abc points out, we need to be able to do a deep dive on comparison between individual resorts. That would be interesting to see.


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## Glenn (Dec 6, 2019)

Interesting thread! I was just thinking the same thing the other day. I'm curious to see how this plays out at Stratton this season vs. other seasons. I'll also be interested in hearing about crowds at Mt. Snow. Being the two most Southern mountains in VT, the propensity is there for more volume. 

And yes, the other side of the coin....it brings more skiers to the hill which could help the sport overall. 

And good to see you back Greg! Love the fact that it's been awhile, but you're still killin' it with the post count. :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 6, 2019)

Something tells me that this has a lot more to do with the Disney World model than anything else.  Disney makes it extremely cheap to add days to a pass after the first four days.  This provides a strong financial incentive against splitting your vacation time with Universal Studios.  The theory is that, if the customer would have gone somewhere else, you are better off having people pay very little to remain on your property because they are going to spend money on food and souvenirs.  In other words, some money is better than no money.

Therefore, it is likely that the mega-pass resorts are seeing increased skier visits.  Vail isn't stupid, after all.  

It's no secret that the biggest losers in this type of battle are the other resorts.  As I have said earlier, I would not want to be Magic, Bromley, Bolton, Smuggs, or Burke right now.  Those resorts are going to have to offer a sub-$500 season pass if they want more than condo owners and locals buying them.  The silver lining is that they won't have to substantially reduce day ticket prices since the mega-pass resorts charge insanely high day rates.  

I have a feeling that you will start to see a lot of deferred maintenance and scrubbed improvement plans at the non-mega pass resorts.  That will not make their long term survival any easier.

It is very possible that we are experiencing a heyday of skiing in the northeast prior to a renewed wave of ski area contractions.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2019)

FBGM said:


> *How is it more expensive?*......Now i*f you’re a dumbass sucker laying window ticket prices. Yeah it’s expensive. *



Because you are only considering people who ski numerous days per season.  

It's also apparent from your post that you have absolutely no idea how few days the average North American skier gets on snow each season, which is only approximately 5.

Additionally, you're also not considering "new" skiers as part of the market at all, or perhaps more likely you aren't intelligent enough to realize that that's what _"recruitment"_ means.  I'll try not to use so many multi-syllabic words if replying to your posts in the future.




Smellytele said:


> *It costs more to start skiing. Most new skiers don’t ski enough per year to even make the 750 worth it.*



Yup.  And this is a big concern some of us have in the long-term.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2019)

Glenn said:


> And yes, the other side of the coin....*it brings more skiers to the hill which could help the sport overall. *



A better way to phrase this, is that it brings the same skiers to the hill more often.


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## kingslug (Dec 6, 2019)

The Epic pass has opened up more possibilities for us. Hunter, Mt Snow Okemo Stowe...it will be cheaper overall to go to all these places now, even though we will probably be at Stowe more..but we can leave Stowe and hit Mt Snow or Okemo on Sunday ..or hit Hunter for a quick day trip. I used to get 25 days in ..now get 40.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Dec 6, 2019)

Looking at the webcams it already looks like a normal mid-winter weekend day at Mount Snow. Do these EPIC people even work?


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## abc (Dec 6, 2019)

> ...heyday of skiing in the northeast prior to the second wave of ski area contractions.


Not just the northeast. All over the country!


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## Domeskier (Dec 6, 2019)

Are epic passes as big an existential threat to skiing as climate changes?  Which pass will be the first to include skiing on Mars?  Can you even get to Mars before the season ends?  What's the best wax to use on red snow?  When are the US and Norway closing the sale of Greenland?  Did a computer really prove the four color theorem?  Was it Watson?


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## kingslug (Dec 6, 2019)

The answer is.....42


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## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2019)

kingslug said:


> The answer is.....42



Hmmm? I came up with 57...


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## kingslug (Dec 6, 2019)

Hmmm..ill have to think about that...


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## JimG. (Dec 6, 2019)

skiur said:


> Yes, the line at K1 can get like that, but go to needles or canyon or north ridge or snowdon triple or lower skyeship or bear quad or south ridge on that day and there is pretty much no line.  Only lifts that get like that are k1, snowdon bubble, ramshead and skye peak quad.



We wound up at South Ridge that day.


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## JimG. (Dec 6, 2019)

ironhippy said:


> Wait is the OP actually Alpine Zone Greg!?!?!
> 
> Amazing, keep up the good work at TGR



lol


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## FBGM (Dec 7, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because you are only considering people who ski numerous days per season.
> 
> It's also apparent from your post that you have absolutely no idea how few days the average North American skier gets on snow each season, which is only approximately 5.
> 
> ...



Oh boomer coming back with some sass! I like it. I’m semi right now. 

You’re still wrong tho


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 7, 2019)

kingslug said:


> The answer is.....42



Lol! I had to remember why I knew that! :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Oh boomer coming back with some sass! I like it. I’m semi right now.
> 
> You’re still wrong tho


Actually, he's not, Karen

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## Greg (Dec 7, 2019)

Epic "crowd" was totally manageable @ snow today. Never waited more than 10 minutes. Early start was key as was early lunch and sticking mostly to the north face.


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## darent (Dec 7, 2019)

I can remember The American Skiing Company pass, made weekends crazy at most of their mountains, but mid week was quiet. will have to wait and se how things shake out.


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## Zand (Dec 7, 2019)

I'll be at Killington tomorrow, hope the Ikonic crowds are lighter than the Epic crowds. Or I'll just stay away from the Gondola and Bubble.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 7, 2019)

Greg said:


> Epic "crowd" was totally manageable @ snow today. *Never waited more than 10 minutes.* .



I dont know Mount Snow, but 10 minute wait lines in early December, at least in my life, are not "normal" or something to be happy about.


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## drjeff (Dec 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont know Mount Snow, but 10 minute wait lines in early December, at least in my life, are not "normal" or something to be happy about.


As a Mount Snow regular for 16 of the last 18 seasons (blame my 2 missed seasons 14 and 16 years ago on my kids being born! [emoji6]) Greg's report was accurate and quite nice today!

Honestly after seeing the line to get into the parking lot at 8:30 this morning, I (and numerous other regulars I saw this morning while booting up inside the Mount Snow Ski Club building) were expecting queue lanes in the main base area outside of the ropes all morning (never happened!) We were pleasantly surprised!! Great snow. Lots of open acres to spread the crowds out, and lots of capacity lift wise spinning out of the main base area.

Truly at great early December day!

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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2019)

Crowds like beauty is in the eye of the beholder!


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## Greg (Dec 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont know Mount Snow, but 10 minute wait lines in early December, at least in my life, are not "normal" or something to be happy about.



There was a recent storm that left quite a bit of snow throughout New England this week. Of course it's going to be busier than your typical early December Saturday...


----------



## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

Greg said:


> There was a recent storm that left quite a bit of snow throughout New England this week. Of course it's going to be busier than your typical early December Saturday...



I have to agree with BG...10 minutes was an eternity yesterday. Skied all day at Belleayre, snowed more overnight and during the morning, all lifts ski on all day. In fact, in 3 days I skied there this week I never had a lift partner other than the folks I skied with.

Megapasses certainly do increase crowd sizes.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 8, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I have to agree with BG...10 minutes was an eternity yesterday. Skied all day at Belleayre, snowed more overnight and during the morning, all lifts ski on all day. In fact, in 3 days I skied there this week I never had a lift partner other than the folks I skied with.
> 
> Megapasses certainly do increase crowd sizes.



I know the locals at places like Squaw and Jackson will certainly agree with you. 

I don’t mind it, there’s plenty of ski areas not on these passes that have plenty of good skiing at reasonable rates. Imo the mega passes give me all the more reason to visit the more mom and pop places.


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## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> I know the locals at places like Squaw and Jackson will certainly agree with you.
> 
> I don’t mind it, there’s plenty of ski areas not on these passes that have plenty of good skiing at reasonable rates. Imo the mega passes give me all the more reason to visit the more mom and pop places.



Totally agree with you and I'm hoping more folks feel like us and forego the megapass to frequent the smaller family run areas. Speaking of which, hoping to get up to McCauley mountain in Old Forge soon.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> *  mega passes give me all the more reason to visit the more mom and pop places.*



Same; you can find me at.

Jay Peak
Magic Mountain
Plattekill
Smuggler's Notch


Of course, Jay Peak will probably go IKON & Smuggs will probably be bought by Vail, and then I'm screwed.  Maybe at that point I'll try Bolton Valley again, havent been there in about 17 years.


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## raisingarizona (Dec 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Same; you can find me at.
> 
> Jay Peak
> Magic Mountain
> ...



If I was living back out east I’d be content bouncing back and forth between Plattekill, Magic and MRG.


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2019)

Although I have skied at some of the mega pass areas (killington, wildcat, Sunday river and Loon) already this year, my pass is at Cannon. I plan to ski Burke, smuggs, MRG, and Bolton this year as well.


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## Greg (Dec 8, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I have to agree with BG...10 minutes was an eternity yesterday. Skied all day at Belleayre, snowed more overnight and during the morning, all lifts ski on all day. In fact, in 3 days I skied there this week I never had a lift partner other than the folks I skied with.
> 
> Megapasses certainly do increase crowd sizes.



Let me clarify. 2 rides on the north face were about a 10 minute lift ride, both around 10:45-11:15. 2 others when we did hit the front after lunch waiting for the summit quad were maybe 10 minutes (I'm guessing; I didn't time any, but it certainly wasn't a frustrating wait). The rest were well under 5 minutes and several were ski-on. I remember much worse waits over the years; granted it is early season still so we'll see. All I know is I'm tired today and feel satisfied with my ski day yesterday. No waits at all wouldn't have allowed me to ski any harder or any longer than I did.


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## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

Greg said:


> Let me clarify. 2 rides on the north face were about a 10 minute lift ride, both around 10:45-11:15. 2 others when we did hit the front after lunch waiting for the summit quad were maybe 10 minutes (I'm guessing; I didn't time any, but it certainly wasn't a frustrating wait). The rest were well under 5 minutes and several were ski-on. I remember much worse waits over the years; granted it is early season still so we'll see. All I know is I'm tired today and feel satisfied with my ski day yesterday. No waits at all wouldn't have allowed me to ski any harder or any longer than I did.



Guess what I'm saying is that there were a few people at Belleayre and nobody in line. Sounds like there were more people at Snow and some in line each time you rode the lift.

Perhaps crowd is a poor description, but it sounds like there were definitely more people at Snow than in the Cats. I think that will be a trend as the season progresses.

Haven't heard any reports from Hunter or Windham.


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## Greg (Dec 8, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Guess what I'm saying is that there were a few people at Belleayre and nobody in line. Sounds like there were more people at Snow and some in line each time you rode the lift.



Probably. Take the megapasses out of the equation and imagine this weekend was pre-Peak Resorts. I wonder if it really have looked that much different between Snow and Bell.


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2019)

Hunter...but the 6 moves fast so waits were 10 to 12 minutes...no wait for Northside..5 minutes for the F...fast and firm..huge rollers and moguls on Eside drive..nothing poachable...Racers looked tempting but I think the redcoated ones would be unsympathetic to my cause..fun day


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## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

EPIC! Now we know where all the skiers were.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2019)

kingslug said:


> *Hunter*...but the 6 moves fast so *waits were 10 to 12 minutes*..



Yet another example.  

Again, 10 and 12 minute waits in early December are not normal.  

Those long lines may be EPIC & they may be IKONic, but they are not normal.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yet another example.
> 
> Again, 10 and 12 minute waits in early December are not normal.
> 
> Those long lines may be EPIC & they may be IKONic, but they are not normal.


Well, to be fair, the snow conditions are abnormally good for the Catskills for early December.   When is the last time you've skied at Hunter in early December? Ever been there 12/6 after they got two feet of snow days prior?

As for my experience this weekend at an Epic ski area?  I skied Crotched with my four year old both days.  Lifts were ski on both days. Maybe a 4-5 chair wait at most. This despite it being the best opening weekend I've ever seen for Crotched in terms of snow conditions and available terrain.   Wildcat apparently wasn't too crazy either despite having 60ish percent of their terrain open, which is almost unheard of for 12/6. 

I do think the "megapass" era will increase crowding at member resorts some, but I don't think the impact is nearly as great as good weather and a solid economy have on ski area crowding. 

Crotched almost never looks like this early December 



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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, to be fair, the snow conditions are abnormally good for the Catskills for early December.  * When is the last time you've skied at Hunter in early December? Ever been there 12/6 after they got two feet of snow days prior?*



Not 100% sure as I wasnt there, but probably last year was almost as solid.  I skied Magic on December 1st last year and it was legitimately like February, all woods in play etc...


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## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

Crotched looks like it was fun this weekend too.


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## JimG. (Dec 8, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, to be fair, the snow conditions are abnormally good for the Catskills for early December.   When is the last time you've skied at Hunter in early December? Ever been there 12/6 after they got two feet of snow days prior?
> 
> As for my experience this weekend at an Epic ski area?  I skied Crotched with my four year old both days.  Lifts were ski on both days. Maybe a 4-5 chair wait at most. This despite it being the best opening weekend I've ever seen for Crotched in terms of snow conditions and available terrain.   Wildcat apparently wasn't too crazy either despite having 60ish percent of their terrain open, which is almost unheard of for 12/6.
> 
> ...



I worry that certain megapass member resorts will experience crowding and that others will not. 

It is very odd to me that the Cats were empty except for Hunter this past weekend (for me Fri Sat).


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## abc (Dec 8, 2019)

JimG. said:


> It is very odd to me that the Cats were empty except for Hunter this past weekend (for me Fri Sat).


Not odd at all. It’s proof of the Epic effect. 

I’m the proof. I bought Epic pass before Vail bought Peak. So Hunter came as a freebie. Why not ski it? I did just that, today! Adding to the crowd.


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## Harvey (Dec 8, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Now if you’re a dumbass sucker laying window ticket prices. Yeah it’s expensive. But if you’re that dumb you deserve the price. *Same goes for food.*



Count me as a dumb ass sucker. I try to buy food whenever I am at an independent.


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## Harvey (Dec 8, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Totally agree with you and I'm hoping more folks feel like us and forego the megapass to frequent the smaller family run areas. Speaking of which, hoping to get up to McCauley mountain in Old Forge soon.



Blood Brother.

If you haven't been to McCauley I am guessing you will dig it.


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## Cornhead (Dec 9, 2019)

Harvey said:


> Blood Brother.
> 
> If you haven't been to McCauley I am guessing you will dig it.


Oh he couldn't have had a better baptism at McCauley, 2ft of lake snow on a $12 Friday if Alzheimer's isn't kicking in.

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## jimk (Dec 9, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, to be fair, the snow conditions are abnormally good for the Catskills for early December.   When is the last time you've skied at Hunter in early December? Ever been there 12/6 after they got two feet of snow days prior?
> 
> I do think the "megapass" era will increase crowding at member resorts some, but I don't think the impact is nearly as great as good weather and a solid economy have on ski area crowding.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Also, I think the average price of gasoline is pretty reasonable right now across the country.  (AAA says it's $2.57 on 12/9/19.)


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## 180 (Dec 9, 2019)

Hunter was packed.  Went back after skiing Plat and did 2 hours of pow pow! Over 4000 both days! more than a third Epic and lots of day tickets. Biggest day so early in 20 years.  Skiing was great. Blowing snow on Racers, Upper Cross over. Nailed the North lift line.  Great run, should have snow making.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R3i3i4qApTGBBhaf8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/41EnCWnx76RRGshu8


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 9, 2019)

180 said:


> *Hunter was packed........ * * Biggest day so early in 20 years.*


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## JimG. (Dec 9, 2019)

Harvey said:


> Blood Brother.
> 
> If you haven't been to McCauley I am guessing you will dig it.



Been there after a 2 foot dump. $12 Friday lift ticket for sweet knee deep lake effect. Barkeater rules.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 9, 2019)

I ski at Mount Snow.  Megapass in full effect there given they were ground zero for the big snowstorm last week.  What was truly disappointing was that they were still at Pre-Christmas staffing levels, leaving much needed lifts idle, such as Heavy Metal over at Carinthia, or limited ability to manage the lines.  On Sunday, my pass was never scanned all day given lack of staff.  

Early season staffing levels has been an issue in the past, and so far this year the large open trail count at this early stage, and megapasses only serves to amp this issue up to 11.  Is it really that hard to increase staffing levels by 10% early season and put all that into lift ops?  The money spent will pay off in more satisfied customers who will remain Epic next year rather than jump to Ikon, for example.


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## Los (Dec 9, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Is it really that hard to increase staffing levels by 10% early season and put all that into lift ops?



Yes, I believe it is. Vermont ski areas are desperate for help - lift attendants and snowmakers in particular.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 9, 2019)

Los said:


> Yes, I believe it is. Vermont ski areas are desperate for help - lift attendants and snowmakers in particular.



Plan ahead, re-train some of the people you plan to lay off, get a few of the higher ups to help out.  It can be done.  It was not too long ago you'd see Kelly working the lift lines in early season to keep things running.  

I suppose what it will actually take, unfortunately, is for a line of singles like they had at Carinthia on Sunday that snaked dangerously up the hill in the path of skiers and riders coming off the last roller, and for someone to get seriously hurt while simply standing in that line.


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## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2019)

Foreign help doesn’t show up until after Christmas sometimes and work visas are harder to come by.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2019)

I am involved with hiring in the state of Vermont.  For an employer, the employment market is brutal right now.  It's a combination of a couple of things.  First, unemployment is functionally at zero.  Anyone who genuinely wants to work is working.  Second, more people are leaving Vermont than are moving to Vermont.  Outward migration is particularly high among those who earn $25,000 to $75,000 a year.  The few people that are moving in tend to be high wage earners.


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## machski (Dec 9, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Plan ahead, re-train some of the people you plan to lay off, get a few of the higher ups to help out.  It can be done.  It was not too long ago you'd see Kelly working the lift lines in early season to keep things running.
> 
> I suppose what it will actually take, unfortunately, is for a line of singles like they had at Carinthia on Sunday that snaked dangerously up the hill in the path of skiers and riders coming off the last roller, and for someone to get seriously hurt while simply standing in that line.


Hate to literally rain on your parade, but the weather today/tomorrow couples with what looks wet and not white next weekend should bring the offering back in line with current staffing levels.  We had the same issue at SR last season end of Nov/early Dec.  Entire mountain could have been open from Nov 27th on but they didn't have the staff that early.  They did a great job opening Locke to Aurora and in between mixing staff where they could.  Just not practical to ramp staff too early given you can't predict these big early storms.  Not going to happen most years and then what, you bleed money with staff just hanging around doing nothing?

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## mlkrgr (Dec 9, 2019)

I think the early season lines have more to do with people are more apt to get out when there's snow on the ground in their area. Wachusett was very busy for a night session on Saturday night despite having an REI snow bash party that diverted people into the lodge. Had to park all the way down on row 14 of the main lot, and waits were 3-5 minutes for much of the night on both HSQs. Cars were in the overflow lot from the day session. They should have stayed open til 10 pm given the amount of business they were doing, but were only open til 8 pm. 
Definitely busier than a normal weekend day but perhaps not quite as bad as a holiday weekend night crowd.


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## cdskier (Dec 9, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yet another example.
> 
> Again, 10 and 12 minute waits in early December are not normal.
> 
> Those long lines may be EPIC & they may be IKONic, but they are not normal.



 Normal? Perhaps not, but they absolutely did happen pre-epic. I remember being at hunter for a demo day in early December about 10-15 years ago. Had a family Christmas party that night and had to be home by 1 or 2 to get ready for it. Me and my dad figured we could ski 2-3 hours and demo at least a few of the skis we were interested it. Well we ended up literally skiing 2 or 3 runs it was so crowded. Ticket window line was 30+ minutes long. Lift lines were 20+ minutes. It was insane. But we had just had some recent big snow and everyone wanted to ski. 

As for hunter being crowded and Belleayre not, I can’t say that would have surprised me pre epic either. Back when I used to ski there regularly, that was a pretty typical scenario. Maybe things changed and bell is more crowded now than 10 years ago, but the lack of crowds back then on the same days that hunter and windham were packed was a huge reason I was such a big fan of Belleayre.


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## raisingarizona (Dec 9, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Plan ahead, re-train some of the people you plan to lay off, get a few of the higher ups to help out.  It can be done.  It was not too long ago you'd see Kelly working the lift lines in early season to keep things running.
> 
> I suppose what it will actually take, unfortunately, is for a line of singles like they had at Carinthia on Sunday that snaked dangerously up the hill in the path of skiers and riders coming off the last roller, and for someone to get seriously hurt while simply standing in that line.



Just like that eh? 

Haha!


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## raisingarizona (Dec 9, 2019)

Looking at the last couple of weeks while trying to determine the affects of mega passes on eastern ski areas may come up a bit short on creating a reliable or conclusive data sample.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 9, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I worry that certain megapass member resorts will experience crowding and that others will not.
> 
> It is very odd to me that the Cats were empty except for Hunter this past weekend (for me Fri Sat).



that's the least odd thing i've ever read on here. hunter has always been the popular one, and now its the popular and cheap one with epic.  

people don't even know plattekill exists.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 9, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> I ski at Mount Snow.  Megapass in full effect there given they were ground zero for the big snowstorm last week.  What was truly disappointing was that they were still at Pre-Christmas staffing levels, leaving much needed lifts idle, such as Heavy Metal over at Carinthia, or limited ability to manage the lines.  On Sunday, my pass was never scanned all day given lack of staff.
> 
> Early season staffing levels has been an issue in the past, and so far this year the large open trail count at this early stage, and megapasses only serves to amp this issue up to 11.  Is it really that hard to increase staffing levels by 10% early season and put all that into lift ops?  The money spent will pay off in more satisfied customers who will remain Epic next year rather than jump to Ikon, for example.


I only had my pass scanned once or twice yesterday. However, I think it also helped the line run faster/more smooth. I'm fine with that.
They also finally had GSE running which is nice and helps reduce wait time for both summit lift options.


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## mbedle (Dec 9, 2019)

So, all this discussion on how multi resort passes is creating crowding at the resorts begs the question, what will northeast ski industry look like in 5 years? Skier visits have been flat for the last 20 years. it seems like this increase in skier visits at multi-pass resorts must be resulting in an overall decrease at non-multi-pass resorts or, are we seeing the beginning of greater skier visits? With Epic Pass and to a lesser extent Ikon Pass, available at multiple resorts in the northeast, will the initial surge seen at Stowe two years ago, lessen this year. I got to believe that a fair amount of people will forgo the longer drive to try the other Vail resorts closer to home. Will enough people be feed up with the crowding and start visiting the smaller resorts?


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## abc (Dec 9, 2019)

How many pass holders Vail picks up with the purchase of Peak? I forgot...

It'll take a couple season for this "state" to pan out. 

On the one hand, all the Peak pass holders suddenly have a chance to ski in the west for not much extra. How many will take advantage of that? Those who had already been going out west will definitely limit their trip to Vail resorts. But how many others who never gone out west will try it once just because? They will have an impact to the Vail properties out west. But they won't make too big a difference to Vail properties in the east (ok, maybe will increase crowding at Stowe a little). 

On the other side of the equation is people like me. I had not factor Hunter or Mount Snow in my pass purchase back in spring time. I bought the pass to ski in Vail resorts out west. How many people like me are there who are now suddenly crowding into Hunter and Mount Snow? In other words, how many Epic pass holder who were not Peak pass holders been added to the formerly Peak mountains?


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## drjeff (Dec 9, 2019)

abc said:


> How many pass holders Vail picks up with the purchase of Peak? I forgot...
> 
> It'll take a couple season for this "state" to pan out.
> 
> ...


Here's my anecdotal take on this, and I agree with your assessment of Epic (but not prior Peak) passholders checking out the Peak resorts now valid with their Epic passes.

Granted I only have a 7 day sample size (all weekends and Thanksgiving Friday) this season so far. As a regular Mount Snow skier, a fairly surefire way to figure out if you're on the Bluebird with someone who likely hasn't been to Mount Snow before (or atleast in the last 8 seasons since the Bluebird was installed) is that they will go to manually put the bubble up before the chair even enters the top terminal since they're unaware it goes up by itself and didn't read the signage on the safety bar telling them it goes up by itself.

The first 2 or 3 seasons the Bluebird was operating this was a fairly common thing to see (or more often say to someone I was on the chair with who was trying to put the bar/bubble up). Then for 2 or 3 years, before Peak made Mount Snow unrestricted to most of their pass products, you really didn't encounter too many folks a season who would try and put the bar/bubble up themselves. Now the last couple seasons when Peak made Mount Snow unrestricted to most of their pass products, I started to see a noticeable uptick in those folks trying to put the bar/bubble up themselves presumably since they hadn't ridden it, or any other bubble chair before. Now the last 4 weekends in the beginning of the "Epic era" at Mount Snow, my encounters with "bubble newbie's" sure has seemed much more frequent than it has since the 1st few seasons of the Bluebird, as well as hearing folks ask for directions around the mountain or base lodge.

I strongly suspect that there is a good amount of the "let me try out some of these drivable distance resorts now on my Epic pass" going on. I will be curious to see if this keeps up for the entire season or has been a function of the quantity of terrain available, quantity of new snow recently fallen, and geographic proximity to the population centers that put an early season demand on Mount Snow? 

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## abc (Dec 9, 2019)

I was at Hunter yesterday. Shared a chair with a pair of "regulars". 

I mentioned I hadn't skied at Hunter for quite a few years... One of them commented: "we met quite a few who hadn't skied at Hunter for some year but starting again this season. I wonder why?" 

Well, I shared with them my motivation: it's now on my Epic pass. So I'll likely ski there a few times. 

So, it does look like there're quite a few folks like me who are skiing Hunter. I bet at Mount Snow too. 



drjeff said:


> Here's my anecdotal take on this, and I agree with your assessment of Epic (but not prior Peak) passholders checking out the Peak resorts now valid with their Epic passes.
> 
> _*Now the last 4 weekends in the beginning of the "Epic era" at Mount Snow, my encounters with "bubble newbie's" sure has seemed much more frequent than it has since the 1st few seasons of the Bluebird, as well as hearing folks ask for directions around the mountain or base lodge.*_


Yep! That!!



> I strongly suspect that there is a good amount of the "let me try out some of these drivable distance resorts now on my Epic pass" going on. I will be curious to see if this keeps up for the entire season or has been a function of the quantity of terrain available, quantity of new snow recently fallen, and geographic proximity to the population centers that put an early season demand on Mount Snow?


All of the above reason, which I think will add to crowds, especially on "good" days like the past weekend.   

How much of an impact? I don't know.


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## Quietman (Dec 9, 2019)

Los said:


> Yes, I believe it is. Vermont ski areas are desperate for help - lift attendants and snowmakers in particular.


Not just a VT problem!


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## JimG. (Dec 9, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that's the least odd thing i've ever read on here. hunter has always been the popular one, and now its the popular and cheap one with epic.
> 
> people don't even know plattekill exists.



OK, odd for me anyway. I drive into the parking lot of a ski area and see lines like that and I'm off to the next ski area. I've done that more than a few times. But you mentioned the magic word for most people anyway, and that word is cheap.

Cheap seems most important nowadays.


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## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2019)

JimG. said:


> OK, odd for me anyway. I drive into the parking lot of a ski area and see lines like that and I'm off to the next ski area. I've done that more than a few times. But you mentioned the magic word for most people anyway, and that word is cheap.
> 
> Cheap seems most important nowadays.



I like cheap but also quality and quality includes trails, crowds and snow.


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## JimG. (Dec 9, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> I like cheap but also quality and quality includes trails, crowds and snow.



I'll pay a bit extra for trails and snow without the crowds.


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## Los (Dec 10, 2019)

Quietman said:


> Not just a VT problem!



Right... Not that it matters, but I wonder if it's slightly less of a problem in NH just given the fact that the state population is more than double that of Vermont while the number of ski areas are about the same...


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2019)

eh, probably not. the population are all down in manchester, concord, nashua, portsmouth. those people aren't working ski areas, they work in boston and southern nh.


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## Greg (Dec 21, 2019)

Bravo line today at 10:25 am. No Ikon effect at Sugarbush today...


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## drjeff (Dec 21, 2019)

Greg said:


> View attachment 25848
> 
> Bravo line today at 10:25 am. No Ikon effect at Sugarbush today...


Never took any Mount Snow "epic" line shots today, but Bluebird and Nitro we're basically 5-7 minutes tops, and most everything else was less than 10 chairs while my wife and I were out on all 4 faces from 8 until about 1.

I'll report on Okemo and their "Epic" lines tomorrow, as my "racer Dad" duties has me driving up route 100 from Mount Snow to Okemo tomorrow! 

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## Quietman (Dec 21, 2019)

Crotched was quite busy today, but lots of day tickets, and no real lift lines.


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## abc (Dec 22, 2019)

Just drove by Wildcat on my way to xc ski. Parking lot was about half full. 

Lodging around North Conway is abundant. 

I think people are too busy shopping this weekend!


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## slatham (Dec 22, 2019)

This is not your typical crowded weekend. Lets see next weekend.....


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## skiur (Dec 22, 2019)

The weekend before Xmas is always a slow one.


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2019)

Greg said:


> View attachment 25848
> 
> Bravo line today at 10:25 am. No Ikon effect at Sugarbush today...



I'd say Saturday was less crowded than I expected (but I did see quite a few people with Ikon passes...and that's just the ones that had them visible instead of in a pocket). However I thought Sunday and today were more crowded than I expected.


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## Orca (Dec 23, 2019)

There is the possibility that the super passes increase both demand and revenue. With such increases comes the possibility for new lifts and new terrain, likely by expansion of the larger and more viable ski areas as they strive to create a better product. This would be in sharp contrast to the net loss of terrain from the closings of smaller areas that has been the trend in the east for more than thirty years (ref http://www.nelsap.org). Think about this: the thirty years from 1960 to 1990 saw a massive expansion of terrain as the ski industry established itself. The thirty years from 1990 to 2020 has seen a significant reduction in terrain. The only way to reverse the current trend is to increase skier visits and revenue. If the super passes work well, they will do exactly that.


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## FBGM (Dec 24, 2019)

Orca said:


> There is the possibility that the super passes increase both demand and revenue. With such increases comes the possibility for new lifts and new terrain, likely by expansion of the larger and more viable ski areas as they strive to create a better product. This would be in sharp contrast to the net loss of terrain from the closings of smaller areas that has been the trend in the east for more than thirty years (ref http://www.nelsap.org). Think about this: the thirty years from 1960 to 1990 saw a massive expansion of terrain as the ski industry established itself. The thirty years from 1990 to 2020 has seen a significant reduction in terrain. The only way to reverse the current trend is to increase skier visits and revenue. If the super passes work well, they will do exactly that.



Your ramble did have some facts in there. But I don’t see anyone expanding or any new places popping up. Last ski resort built was what? Revel stoke? Like 15 year’s ago?

I think there are some areas where you could get away with building a new resort - Utah Wasatch area and Summit County Colorado - both have an exploding population near by with close to maxed out ski areas. Utah got Woodward, but they doesn’t count even tho it’s new. They are trying to build some other dumb one by mayflower but that’s just a loophole to make more hotels to crowd the existing areas. 

End of the day it takes 2-5 year’s to fully build a resort from ground up. And $250m would  be a starting budget for like 2,000 acre resort and infrastructure. Shit ain’t happenen


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## Bosco DaSkia (Dec 24, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Your ramble did have some facts in there. But I don’t see anyone expanding or any new places popping up. Last ski resort built was what? Revel stoke? Like 15 year’s ago?
> 
> I think there are some areas where you could get away with building a new resort - Utah Wasatch area and Summit County Colorado - both have an exploding population near by with close to maxed out ski areas. Utah got Woodward, but they doesn’t count even tho it’s new. They are trying to build some other dumb one by mayflower but that’s just a loophole to make more hotels to crowd the existing areas.
> 
> End of the day it takes 2-5 year’s to fully build a resort from ground up. And $250m would  be a starting budget for like 2,000 acre resort and infrastructure. Shit ain’t happenen



wut? open yer eyez to the world around ya

things that be happenen rights now....

east 

hunter west
waterville green peak
black mountain glades
catamount trails and lodge
gore whole new pods
cockainge back from the ashes


west

arapahoe beavers lift pod
keystone bergman bowl pod
beaver creek mccoy park
timberline and summit ski areas linked on mt hood
great divide rawhide gulch
ski cooper tennessee creek basin lift and trails
cherry peak brand new
hankin-evelyn backcountry recreation area
cuchara mountain park 

planned

nordic peak expansion
stagecoach ski resort proposal
wasatch peaks ranch private resort
big white backcountry project
grand targhee terrain expansion
balsams expansion still moving along


mayflower mountain resort https://liftblog.com/2019/08/13/mayflower-mountain-resort-eyes-2021-opening/


go peddle yer pessimistic views elsewhere sonny boy.....


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 24, 2019)

Orca said:


> There is the possibility that the super passes increase both demand and revenue.



Revenue yes, demand no.

The demand is relatively static to perhaps a relatively non-material increase.  We already know this via NSAA data.  It's more of a shift in buyer behaviour than a material increase in customers (e.g. new skiers/snowboarders).

Yes, the purveyors of EPIC & IKON are telling you (often) that they're saving skiing, increasing skier demand, and curing several currently incurable & inoperable diseases & cancers.  Dont believe them.


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## FBGM (Dec 24, 2019)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> wut? open yer eyez to the world around ya
> 
> things that be happenen rights now....
> 
> ...




Im taking new shit noob. All those you mentioned are adding on to existing stuff. 

All the “new/proposed” stuff you mentioned is fairy tail land except for mayflower which is getting built and I explained above. 

Nordic expansion is never happening. End of story. lol at skiing to Ogden. Yay maybe we can get a ski through temple - fucking Mormons 
Wasatch peaks has about a 10% chance of happening. And if so, you have skis on snow at a new resort by 2025 earliest. 
That Balsams is never happening. Ever. 

Learn to read. And keep dreaming.


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## Greg (Dec 24, 2019)

Lots of iMuscle in this thread. :lol:


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## FBGM (Dec 24, 2019)

Greg said:


> Lots of iMuscle in this thread. :lol:



I have the biggest


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## skimagic (Dec 24, 2019)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> wut? open yer eyez to the world around ya
> 
> things that be happenen rights now....
> 
> ...


And there's a Sun Valley expansion next year and Wolf Creek has some good plans to extend off the backside.

This years notable expansions not mentioned above includes Copper Tucker mtn lift, Montana Snow bowl TV mountain lift, and restoration of Wildwood lift at Tamarack.

There is no real need to build brand new resort when there is plenty of terrain added by expansions.   Expansions are "new areas" anyways-  Revelstoke is an expanded area, not new.
Brand new areas last 15 yrs are Tamarack, Cherry Peak, and the former moonlight basin. And back east Tenney is an old new area.

There really is no room for a brand new resort in wasatch or summit county. All the good spots are taken or are in existing permit areas.  Plus  any developer would want private land for condos at the base  which is hard to find. 

And even if there was private land, the locals might be against idevelpment such as the Snodgrass Mountain ( a separate ski area really) expansion at Crested Butte that got killed .


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## ss20 (Dec 24, 2019)

Ski areas closed in the 80s and 90s like the plague spreading because of major increases in insurance premiums.  Also, this is hypothetical but maybe someone born pre-1960 could answer this- I always thought it was due to too many changes in the industry.  

What I mean is... if you're a small mountain in 1979, you have a few fixed-grip chairs, a base lodge, and snowmaking and grooming on a select handful of core trails.  If you're a large mountain...you have the same set of infrastructure.  Same skiing experience, larger scale.

Fast forward to 1994.  Big mountains are adding detatchable chairs, slopeside hotels, real estate.  60-80% of terrain is expected to have snowmaking and grooming (now done by a true grooming "fleet" of advanced machines).  The skiing experience at these major mountains is vastly different from the smaller hills, now not just in mountain size- but amenities, lifts, and skiing quality.  Little mountains have to adapt extremely quick or die out...and that's what happened in the 80s.  I would not say it was due to a change in demand.


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## Orca (Dec 24, 2019)

ss20 said:


> ...The skiing experience at these major mountains is vastly different from the smaller hills, now not just in mountain size- but amenities, lifts, and skiing quality.  Little mountains have to adapt extremely quick or die out...and that's what happened in the 80s.  I would not say it was due to a change in demand.



The smaller mountains either did not or could not adapt, and the demand for their product changed for the worse.

I'd agree that the ski landscape has changed, as it is changing now. I'm not pessimistic about the mega passes just yet. They might spur capital investment of the type that we skiers like.


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## Orca (Dec 24, 2019)

FBGM said:


> I have the biggest



That's not what she said


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## Smellytele (Dec 25, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Ski areas closed in the 80s and 90s like the plague spreading because of major increases in insurance premiums.  Also, this is hypothetical but maybe someone born pre-1960 could answer this- I always thought it was due to too many changes in the industry.
> 
> What I mean is... if you're a small mountain in 1979, you have a few fixed-grip chairs, a base lodge, and snowmaking and grooming on a select handful of core trails.  If you're a large mountain...you have the same set of infrastructure.  Same skiing experience, larger scale.
> 
> Fast forward to 1994.  Big mountains are adding detatchable chairs, slopeside hotels, real estate.  60-80% of terrain is expected to have snowmaking and grooming (now done by a true grooming "fleet" of advanced machines).  The skiing experience at these major mountains is vastly different from the smaller hills, now not just in mountain size- but amenities, lifts, and skiing quality.  Little mountains have to adapt extremely quick or die out...and that's what happened in the 80s.  I would not say it was due to a change in demand.



It was really the late 70’s and 80’s that the ski areas were closing. NH had Tyrol, mittersill, and a bunch of small tow rope community areas. Maine had at least evergreen valley.


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## Harvey (Dec 25, 2019)

ss20 said:


> skiing quality



A subjective term.

From my POV the skiing at Plattekill is better than the skiing at Stratton. Others will disagree.


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## ss20 (Dec 25, 2019)

Harvey said:


> A subjective term.
> 
> From my POV the skiing at Plattekill is better than the skiing at Stratton. Others will disagree.



Well yes...for this forum the definition of "skiing quality" is very diverse in opinion.  For the casual skier that the major resorts revolve around that means groomed slopes and decent snowmaking.  There isn't a major player in the Northeast that grooms and makes snow on less than 60% of their terrain (perhaps Sugarbush and Sugarloaf being a bit under that 60% grooming mark).  In the 80s resorts that could blow snow and groom set themselves apart from the little guys who couldn't afford to keep up.  See- Killington, Okemo, Sunday River, Watchusett, Stratton.


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## Harvey (Dec 25, 2019)

Financial viability vs skiing quality.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 25, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Well yes...for this forum the definition of "skiing quality" is very diverse in opinion.  For the casual skier that the major resorts revolve around that means groomed slopes and decent snowmaking.  There isn't a major player in the Northeast that grooms and makes snow on less than 60% of their terrain (perhaps Sugarbush and Sugarloaf being a bit under that 60% grooming mark).  In the 80s resorts that could blow snow and groom set themselves apart from the little guys who couldn't afford to keep up.  See- Killington, Okemo, Sunday River, Watchusett, Stratton.


Sugarbush yes.  Sugarloaf definitely no.  They easily make snow on and groom 80+% of their terrain. 

Put me in the camp of less of both is more.  Natural snow that doesn't see a groomer skis better than the opposite.  One of Wildcats best qualities is they only make snow on roughly 25 of their 48 trails.  Same goes for grooming.   I'm willing to wait out the dry spells during bad weather when the natural terrain is closed because the payoff is a better surface after the next storm.   Hopefully Vail doesn't change that philosophy too much.

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## abc (Dec 25, 2019)

Harvey said:


> Financial viability vs skiing quality.


That’s the truest statement. 

I’m willing to wait out the dry spells. But many families can’t. 

Without snowmaking, mountains play second fiddle catering to “core” skiers who don’t spend much beyond the lift ticket. No kiddie lessons, no rental packages, no burgers plus fries for the hungry teenager for lunch (let’s face it, some of those here brown bag it). 

Not to mention not able to open due to lack of natural snow during those, increasingly frequent “dry spells”!

I love Plattekill and others like that. But I also understand why many other mountains don’t operate that way. My hope is, the like of Plattekill can continue alongside of the like of Okemo. So both families and non-families both got what they prefer.


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## prsboogie (Dec 26, 2019)

I have only been out West once [emoji24] but I was talking to an Ops guy at Canyons and he told me they would only groom a particular trail every 3rd or 4th day to protect the quality of the snow. The fewer passes of the machine, the lower the friction and heat that could melt and refreeze the snow which creates ice. Made sense to me. 





deadheadskier said:


> Sugarbush yes.  Sugarloaf definitely no.  They easily make snow on and groom 80+% of their terrain.
> 
> Put me in the camp of less of both is more.  Natural snow that doesn't see a groomer skis better than the opposite.  One of Wildcats best qualities is they only make snow on roughly 25 of their 48 trails.  Same goes for grooming.   I'm willing to wait out the dry spells during bad weather when the natural terrain is closed because the payoff is a better surface after the next storm.   Hopefully Vail doesn't change that philosophy too much.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



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## dblskifanatic (Dec 26, 2019)

A Basin is much more fun to ski this season without the Epic Pass.  While they are on the Ikon Pass it is only 5 days and the lines even on opening weekend were great.  Also powder is not getting chopped up as fast - very nice!  This season has been a little strange even our Days at Breck have been decent.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 2, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> A Basin is much more fun to ski this season without the Epic Pass.  While they are on the Ikon Pass it is only 5 days and the lines even on opening weekend were great.  Also powder is not getting chopped up as fast - very nice!  This season has been a little strange even our Days at Breck have been decent.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



This post is giving me optimism for my planned weeklong trip to CO for end of Feb/March. 

I have the epic local + GEM card and we are planning to ski Breck, Vail (2X), Keystone, Loveland and Abasin (2X) while based out of Silverthorne. We are going to be skiing from a Saturday-Friday. 

Any tips from regulars/locals on which of these mountains to hit on the weekend days to (best) avoid crowds? Our group is looking to preferably ski loveland on a monday/tuesday to have best chance of easy cat access.


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## kingslug (Jan 6, 2020)

While waiting on this line and being part of the problem..LOL..A local said he has never seen anything like it. So my opinion is..yup.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 6, 2020)

kingslug said:


> While waiting on this line and being part of the problem..LOL..A local said he has never seen anything like it. So my opinion is..yup.


Is that today and local?!


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## camberstick (Jan 6, 2020)

on a Monday?! No thanks, I 'll ski indy areas.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 6, 2020)

That can't be today's crowds...


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## cdskier (Jan 6, 2020)

kingslug posted that photo in another thread on Sunday I believe...so that was Sunday's crowd


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## kingslug (Jan 6, 2020)

Sunday..we all thought it would be a powder day..that was at 735 when i got on line.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Sunday..we all thought it would be a powder day..*that was at 735 when i got on line.*



That is not normal.


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## cdskier (Jan 6, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Sunday..we all thought it would be a powder day..that was at 735 when i got on line.



7:35? Yikes! I would have guessed 10 or 11am with lines like that... It isn't like there was feet of fresh powder....


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2020)

Stowe has had a history of a big crowd at 7:30 on weekends peak season going back since I moved there in 95.  As long as the weather wasn't total crap, there's a healthy crowd.  The line then mellows considerably from 8 until 9.  A lot of that crowd are locals who just want to bang out a bunch of runs by 11 and call it a day.  

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## nhskier1969 (Jan 6, 2020)

Went to Tremblant aka "Disney Land".  Photo taken Dec 30th.  The line was on Both sides of the lift.  You also had a line coming up the middle for Ski School.
My Favorite line was their Gondola around 11a.  After waiting 40 minutes in line, you come close to the Gondola but there is another line coming in, aka local pass and ski school.  My family got separated when that happened and we took separate gondolas.


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2020)

I would just call it a loss and go drink 


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## Edd (Jan 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I would just call it a loss and go drink



Easily. That line is unacceptable to me.


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## machski (Jan 7, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Went to Tremblant aka "Disney Land".  Photo taken Dec 30th.  The line was on Both sides of the lift.  You also had a line coming up the middle for Ski School.
> My Favorite line was their Gondola around 11a.  After waiting 40 minutes in line, you come close to the Gondola but there is another line coming in, aka local pass and ski school.  My family got separated when that happened and we took separate gondolas.
> 
> View attachment 25925


We went during Max pass days over MLK weekend.  Saturday looked just like that, TGV quad line from both sides and easily a 30 minute wait.  At least Lowell Thomas is a HSQ now on the North side vs a FGT.  Alterra really needs to spend some $$ up there still.  The North TTB HSQ needs to be upgraded to a bubble 6, maybe even an 8 like Big Sky.  And both South Quads could easily be 6's too.

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## Jcb890 (Jan 7, 2020)

Oh man, that's brutal!
Ugh... lift lines...


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## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2020)

machski said:


> We went during Max pass days over MLK weekend.  Saturday looked just like that, TGV quad line from both sides and easily a 30 minute wait.  At least Lowell Thomas is a HSQ now on the North side vs a FGT.  Alterra really needs to spend some $$ up there still.  The North TTB HSQ needs to be upgraded to a bubble 6, maybe even an 8 like Big Sky.  And both South Quads could easily be 6's too.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



How would the trails handle all those 6’s and an 8?



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## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Stowe has had a history of a big crowd at 7:30 on weekends peak season going back since I moved there in 95.  As long as the weather wasn't total crap, there's a healthy crowd.



I cant recall Sunday non powder day lines like what's in that picture at 7:30am @ Stowe.  And the lines fill the photo, so I'm going on the presumption that it's even worse than what Kingslug was able to capture.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2020)

Probably worse today sure, but I had definitely waited in some long lines at the Forerunner at 7:30 all the way back in the 90s.  Full coral.  I'm just stating there has always been a culture of early birds at Stowe that lines up early for the quad.  After the first rush, it mellows out for an hour or so, then gets packed. 

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## Razor (Jan 7, 2020)

Worst crowd I ever experienced was on a Sunday at Tremblant a couple of years ago.  Luckily we were skiing for 3 days after, and the midweek scene was so much better.


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## kingslug (Jan 7, 2020)

It was a cold snowstorm that everyone thought would produce some pow skiing. Minus 10 windchill and heavy winds scoured it ..but we kept at it..The line mellowed out around 10 but the Gondi was on hold. The guy next to me was a long time local and was amazed at how crowded it was. Since I've only been going there for 2 years I have nothing to go on..But I'm sure the Epic has something to do with it. Met a lot of first timers there who said that the pass brought them there.


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## machski (Jan 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How would the trails handle all those 6’s and an 8?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Probably pretty well.  They have a lot off of both sides and a lot of snowmaking firepower.  For now, when it is open, The Edge pod usually has fairly short to non-existant lift lines due to much less snowmaking over there and only a FGQ.   Much more interesting terrain in my opinion too, though the lower half is quite flat back to the lift.

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## machski (Jan 7, 2020)

Well, Sunday River has always had some crowds on weekends and holidays, but seems like this year has been worse.  Crowds stayed up on Thurs/Fri last week, usually with Jan 1st being midweek, it goes quiet from NYD to the next weekend.  Not this year, wonder if Ikon drove any of that.  Most NH, ME and MA schools were back in session on Thurs. the 2nd I think.

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## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2020)

machski said:


> Well, Sunday River has always had some crowds on weekends and holidays, but seems like this year has been worse.  Crowds stayed up on Thurs/Fri last week, usually with Jan 1st being midweek, it goes quiet from NYD to the next weekend.  Not this year, wonder if Ikon drove any of that.  Most NH, ME and MA schools were back in session on Thurs. the 2nd I think.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Saw some have that whole week off. Not my son but some others


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Went to Tremblant aka "Disney Land".  Photo taken Dec 30th.  The line was on Both sides of the lift.  You also had a line coming up the middle for Ski School.
> My Favorite line was their Gondola around 11a.  After waiting 40 minutes in line, you come close to the Gondola but there is another line coming in, aka local pass and ski school.  My family got separated when that happened and we took separate gondolas.
> 
> View attachment 25925



made that mistake, twice. tremblant between x-mas and new years, and tremblant on "family day" weekend. awful terrible no good very bad experiences. 

the only other time i skied tremblant was a random late-ish season (march or april) saturday, solo. that was ok. singles line was tolerable

its just too close to a major population center and too popular for holidays and peak season weekends.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How would the trails handle all those 6’s and an 8?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



they wouldn't. its already a nightmare on the slopes with their current uphill capacity. you've never seen more novices in canada goose jackets on their butts on icy groomers in your life.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 7, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> they wouldn't. its already a nightmare on the slopes with their current uphill capacity. you've never seen more novices in canada goose jackets on their butts on icy groomers in your life.


It's also fun waiting in those crowded lines with them.  Hey I can force my way forwarded with the best of them, I grew up in Mass.   But lines up in Tremblant is a whole new level.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 7, 2020)

Thats not the problem.  The Mtn has way to many people on it.  If you've been there you would know, they are a lot of beds at the base.  And to make matter worse, they have all the main lifts off each face run to the top of the mtn.  Its a cluster F**k ontop.   Not much room up there with all the people.



machski said:


> We went during Max pass days over MLK weekend.  Saturday looked just like that, TGV quad line from both sides and easily a 30 minute wait.  At least Lowell Thomas is a HSQ now on the North side vs a FGT.  Alterra really needs to spend some $$ up there still.  The North TTB HSQ needs to be upgraded to a bubble 6, maybe even an 8 like Big Sky.  And both South Quads could easily be 6's too.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Jan 7, 2020)

Don’t go to Tremblant on a weekend or holiday. Ever. Why would you even try to do that? Just don’t. 


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## medfordmike (Jan 31, 2020)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/travel/ikon-epic-skiing-crowds.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Not much new but I was surprised to hear Eldora is getting impacted.  I have an Epic pass so guilty as charged but it is nice to see Ikon share the “love”.


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## Los (Jan 31, 2020)

medfordmike said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/travel/ikon-epic-skiing-crowds.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
> 
> Not much new but I was surprised to hear Eldora is getting impacted.  I have an Epic pass so guilty as charged but it is nice to see Ikon share the “love”.



Bottom line for me is that the epic pass is nearly worthless if it brings epic crowds, and includes lame offerings like Mount snow, Okemo, sunapee, and crotched (although i do like crotched. It’s still lame though haha). 

Having said that, we’ve hit Stowe 4 or 5 times this year, each on a Sunday afternoon, and every time have parked right next to Mansfield lodge and had no lines at the forerunner quad... so that’s been a pleasant surprise.  

Sugarbush is our home mountain so we’ll give ikon a shot next year. But if it’s unbearable, we might switch to the white mountain superpass for ‘21-‘22. Would love to go “indy” but their overall lack of snowmaking capabilities is a deal breaker...


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## slatham (Jan 31, 2020)

Los said:


> Bottom line for me is that the epic pass is nearly worthless if it brings epic crowds, and includes lame offerings like Mount snow, Okemo, sunapee, and crotched (although i do like crotched. It’s still lame though haha).
> 
> Having said that, we’ve hit Stowe 4 or 5 times this year, each on a Sunday afternoon, and every time have parked right next to Mansfield lodge and had no lines at the forerunner quad... so that’s been a pleasant surprise.
> 
> Sugarbush is our home mountain so we’ll give ikon a shot next year. But if it’s unbearable, we might switch to the white mountain superpass for ‘21-‘22. Would love to go “indy” but their overall lack of snowmaking capabilities is a deal breaker...



As I've said before, I foresee the full pass being altered where you identify a home mountain for anytime skiing, and for all other mountains you need to "reserve" your spot on holidays and weekends. For the 2nd tier pass you always need to reserve for non blacked out weekends.


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2020)

slatham said:


> As I've said before, I foresee the full pass being altered where you identify a home mountain for anytime skiing, and for all other mountains you need to "reserve" your spot on holidays and weekends. For the 2nd tier pass you always need to reserve for non blacked out weekends.



Interesting idea...I kind of like that.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2020)

slatham said:


> * I foresee the full pass being altered where you identify a home mountain for anytime skiing, and for all other mountains you need to "reserve" your spot on holidays and weekends. *



I think that's a solid guess, with the caveat that I think there'd be a status quo version offered at a perhaps not insignificant price increase.  But I also think EPIC & IKON wont do any of this until ramping ends, as neither would want to be the first to make that capitulation to their pass & concede a competitive disadvantage.


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## xlr8r (Jan 31, 2020)

slatham said:


> As I've said before, I foresee the full pass being altered where you identify a home mountain for anytime skiing, and for all other mountains you need to "reserve" your spot on holidays and weekends. For the 2nd tier pass you always need to reserve for non blacked out weekends.



interesting idea.

But how do you think reserving would work though.  There needs to be a cost for reserving, or a penalty for people who reserve but then do not show up.  Otherwise everyone will just reserve days every weekend/holiday long in advance to keep their options open, then only ski a portion of their reserved days


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## drjeff (Jan 31, 2020)

I think some of what needs to be balanced, is the perceived value of "personalizing" one's pass, and then the likely for many who don't pay as much attention to what that personalization means when they go to another resort on their pass and the time it takes to figure out what the issue is, verses the ease of basically having the same pass, with the same benefits, for all.

In the case of combined sales for Epic and Ikon passes these days, that could be in theory almost 1.5 million different types of passes out there, and that could create a guest services nightmare.

Limited restrictions certainly creates some issues. Over specialized passes also creates some issues. Which way is better? That's probably a personal preference....


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> interesting idea.
> 
> But how do you think reserving would work though.  There needs to be a cost for reserving, or a penalty for people who reserve but then do not show up.  Otherwise everyone will just reserve days every weekend/holiday long in advance to keep their options open, then only ski a portion of their reserved days



You could do something similar to how Deer Valley handles Ikon. They require reservations for all Ikon usage and specifically state that if you make a reservation and don't use it, then they reserve the right to count it as one of your used days anyway. If they see abuse, they simply invoke that clause. Of course this system works best with places that you only have a limited number of Ikon days to begin with. If you had a situation where you had an unlimited number of Ikon days at a resort but still had to make a reservation to use them, they'd have to come up with another solution. It could be something simple where if you miss "x" number of reservations you lose your reservation privileges going forward for that mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 31, 2020)

slatham said:


> As I've said before, I foresee the full pass being altered where you identify a home mountain for anytime skiing, and for all other mountains you need to "reserve" your spot on holidays and weekends. For the 2nd tier pass you always need to reserve for non blacked out weekends.


I would not be down with this concept unless you could select multiple "home mountains."

Big selling points for me on a season pass in addition to cost savings, (especially with a multi-mountain pass) is convenience, flexibility and spontaneity.  It takes the planning and guessing work out of skiing.  I've got multiple options in different geographic locations where I can make my decision where to go at the last minute based upon weather and conditions.  In my case sometimes it's forecasted to be nasty cold in the Mount Washington Valley, so I'll just go ski at Crotched or Sunapee.  Maybe NH is powder starved for awhile, but Northern VT gets in an upslope cycle and I head to Stowe. 

I think Epic is set up just fine with the full Epic vs Local.  The places in the East on that pass that are crowded have always been crowded.  People have known for years what they're getting into hitting, Snow, Okemo, Stowe or Sunapee on a weekend.   If this also means a bit more crowding at the NH mountains I ski, so be it.  

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 1, 2020)




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## Edd (Feb 1, 2020)

Well, at least it’s a sunny day there. 


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## thebigo (Feb 1, 2020)

The original super pass was asc. In college I could only afford the bronze, it was blacked out xmas week, mlk weekend and feb vacation weekends. I would deal hunt on blackout dates, prebought vouchers/nh resident day at cannon, etc. The effect for killington/sunday river was higher yields at peak times. Black out the local/base pass on Saturdays and holidays = your crowding problem is gone.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 1, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Black out the local/base pass on Saturdays and holidays = your crowding problem is gone.



Black out the local/base pass on Saturdays = your crowding problem is gone, but now you likely have a revenue problem.    FWIW, I also think Sundays would get more crowded.


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## Greg (Feb 4, 2020)

Posted on K-Zone:



> ...
> 
> The final misconception I want to address is that Ikon Pass is responsible for longer lift lines. This is simply not true. Ikon Pass visits are an important part of our business, but they are not contributing significantly to longer lift lines. As the season pass landscape has shifted due to multi-resort passes like Ikon, the products that people purchase to access our resort is changing, but the overall number of visitors remains relatively stable.
> 
> ...


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## JimG. (Feb 4, 2020)

K can sing that tune until the cows come home and it is probably true. But the conception (or mis-) will remain and will be an issue.

I still have no idea what a resort like K can possibly gain from being a part of Ikon other than putting fannies in chairs so that post by Mike is mostly self-serving. Which is his job.

I wonder if K wants season passholders like me to become Ikon passholders?


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## machski (Feb 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> K can sing that tune until the cows come home and it is probably true. But the conception (or mis-) will remain and will be an issue.
> 
> I still have no idea what a resort like K can possibly gain from being a part of Ikon other than putting fannies in chairs so that post by Mike is mostly self-serving. Which is his job.
> 
> I wonder if K wants season passholders like me to become Ikon passholders?


Do you only plan to ski Killington 5 or 7 days a season?  If so, grab an Ikon, if not stick with a K pass.  For the non owned (full pass) resorts, what they get out being Ikon (or Epic for those few that are just partners on there) is access to skiers that perhaps like to mix up their skiing.  Maybe they get a few who otherwise woud not hve ventured to that resort.  And maybe a few of those find they like it there enough to switch to full pass holders at those resorts.  Now I will grant this last group is probably pretty small, but that opportunity is there.  And at the least, they make a bit more revenue.  For partner resorts, the super passes don't add substantially to the total skier visits I bet, but many probably hoard their days and go when EVERYONE ELSE is going (big snowfalls, holidays for non blacked out passes).  And since EVERYONE is already there thse days, it gives the optics that Ikon/Epic are killing the resort, which they are not doing.

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## JimG. (Feb 4, 2020)

machski said:


> Do you only plan to ski Killington 5 or 7 days a season?  If so, grab an Ikon, if not stick with a K pass.  For the non owned (full pass) resorts, what they get out being Ikon (or Epic for those few that are just partners on there) is access to skiers that perhaps like to mix up their skiing.  Maybe they get a few who otherwise woud not hve ventured to that resort.  And maybe a few of those find they like it there enough to switch to full pass holders at those resorts.  Now I will grant this last group is probably pretty small, but that opportunity is there.  And at the least, they make a bit more revenue.  For partner resorts, the super passes don't add substantially to the total skier visits I bet, but many probably hoard their days and go when EVERYONE ELSE is going (big snowfalls, holidays for non blacked out passes).  And since EVERYONE is already there thse days, it gives the optics that Ikon/Epic are killing the resort, which they are not doing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



So they get nothing but fannies in chairs, and mostly when conditions are at their best.

Surely you can see why the season passholder has no love lost for Ikon.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 4, 2020)

machski said:


> * For the non owned (full pass) resorts, what they get out being Ikon* (or Epic for those few that are just partners on there) *is access to skiers that perhaps like to mix up their skiing.  Maybe they get a few who otherwise woud not hve ventured to that resort. *



Which makes that Killingon GM's comments rather puzzling. 

 He's doing the same ski area CEO/President/GM/marketing guy thing claiming IKON & EPIC do not lead to increased crowds.  But he's even going to the extent he's claiming the number of people skiing Killington is the SAME pre & post IKON, it's just that way more of that "same number" of people now ski Killington by paying Alterra first.  Huh?


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## machski (Feb 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which makes that Killingon GM's comments rather puzzling.
> 
> He's doing the same ski area CEO/President/GM/marketing guy thing claiming IKON & EPIC do not lead to increased crowds.  But he's even going to the extent he's claiming the number of people skiing Killington is the SAME pre & post IKON, it's just that way more of that "same number" of people now ski Killington by paying Alterra first.  Huh?


Why is this so far fetched?  If you did two long weekend trips to K pre Ikon and now you still do those same two trips but goto any of the other Ikon East resorts as well and maybe venture out west for a long trip or two, why wouldn't some choose this?

I'm Sunday River based and yeah, it seems we have a few more people on the hill, but the vast majority of passes vs tickets (technically Ikon needs to visit ticket window and get a ticket still) is still NEP skiers/riders from my unscientific observations in lift lines.  Killington would be very difficult to impossible to even casually observe these days thanks to RFID passes.  All I can say is, when we had snow or even just over big holiday weekends, when has Killington never been crowded?

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## JimG. (Feb 4, 2020)

Will K be better off when current season passholders bail and buy Ikon passes instead? I know they think they have a captive audience of current passholders and more importantly property owners who won't/can't go elsewhere. I have worked for several companies who took the approach that current customers are "theirs" for life. That does not last and is a horrible and flawed business assumption. 

Again, I just don't see what the benefit is for Killington.


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Will K be better off when current season passholders bail and buy Ikon passes instead? I know they think they have a captive audience of current passholders and more importantly property owners who won't/can't go elsewhere. I have worked for several companies who took the approach that current customers are "theirs" for life. That does not last and is a horrible and flawed business assumption.
> 
> Again, I just don't see what the benefit is for Killington.



I'm not sure I fully understand the logic on why you think season passholders would bail in favor of Ikon. Like machski said, it comes down to the number of days you ski at K. If you're a K passholder, chances are that means you want to ski more than 5/7 days at K otherwise you wouldn't be spending 1K on a season pass there to begin with. So are you saying these people will trade skiing more than 5/7 days at K for skiing days at other Ikon resorts? For some people that may work if they're flexible on lodging, but for people that either own or do seasonal rentals around K, I just don't see them bailing for Ikon and now having to drive to ski elsewhere.

And there's more benefits than just getting people to the mountain. Obviously none of us here have access to the financial information, but there absolutely HAS to be some amount of revenue that K is getting per Ikon visit. Sure it is less than if people bought direct from K, but you also have to think about what would happen if you're the only major resort not part of a multi-pass and all your competitors are. At that point you'd be left with your dedicated passholders that for whatever reason don't want to go elsewhere (i.e. people with property ties to the area). People that were just doing day trips or random weekend trips here and there may now say "Fuck it, I'll skip K and get <insert multi-pass here> that lets me ski at xx number of other places instead". So now K could potentially LOSE visitors by not being part of a multi-pass if all their competitors are part of one. So the benefit is avoidance of losing market-share to competitors.

Again, none of us have access to the data that drives these decisions. If they truly believe there are enough "non-loyal" people that will jump ship if they can get a better value on a multi-pass, then it very well may be a prudent decision to be part of that pass to avoid losing those people. They obviously believe the benefit of not losing those people is greater than the amount of "loyal" passholder they could "piss off".

I mentioned this at some point once before, but Chris Diamond's Ski Inc 2020 book really has some interesting insight into this topic.


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## JimG. (Feb 4, 2020)

cdskier said:


> If they truly believe there are enough "non-loyal" people that will jump ship if they can get a better value on a multi-pass, then it very well may be a prudent decision to be part of that pass to avoid losing those people. They obviously believe the benefit of not losing those people is greater than the amount of "loyal" passholder they could "piss off".



I don't think anything for sure, we're just having a discussion. The part of your response I left is the only topic I truly disagree with. I think they are going to pay a price for thinking folks who ski there 5-7 days a year are more important to keep than season passholders. That's just plain ridiculous if they really think that.

Tell you what, I wouldn't want to be a realtor in a ski town if what you say here is really true. Actually, I wouldn't want to be any business in a ski town where the ski area thinks like that.


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## Smellytele (Feb 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I don't think anything for sure, we're just having a discussion. The part of your response I left is the only topic I truly disagree with. I think they are going to pay a price for thinking folks who ski there 5-7 days a year are more important to keep than season passholders. That's just plain ridiculous if they really think that.
> 
> Tell you what, I wouldn't want to be a realtor in a ski town if what you say here is really true. Actually, I wouldn't want to be any business in a ski town where the ski area thinks like that.



So how are they dissing you and the other passholders if skier visits are still the same?


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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I don't think anything for sure, we're just having a discussion. The part of your response I left is the only topic I truly disagree with. I think they are going to pay a price for thinking folks who ski there 5-7 days a year are more important to keep than season passholders. That's just plain ridiculous if they really think that.
> 
> Tell you what, I wouldn't want to be a realtor in a ski town if what you say here is really true. Actually, I wouldn't want to be any business in a ski town where the ski area thinks like that.



I never said "more important". They simply don't think there are truly that many passholders that are going to be pissed off by partnering with Ikon. I'm a passholder at a Ikon partner resort (for now...obviously that changes next year). But I don't quite understand why I'm supposed to be upset or angry about Ikon people visiting my resort. But then again, I trust in the management at my resort and believe they are doing what is necessary to ensure that I have a sustainable, viable mountain to ski at for the foreseeable future.

I also don't understand the realtor part. People are going to sell their homes/condos and go where exactly? A lot of people that own second homes/condos near ski areas have a certain type of mentality. They like the convenience of having their own place. They like not having to truck their gear around every week. These people are suddenly going to make rather large changes to their behavior because they think their mountain is more crowded? They're going to start renting different lodging every weekend at a different resort? They're going to switch to a day trip model? I don't buy it...



Smellytele said:


> So how are they dissing you and the other passholders if skier visits are still the same?



The problem is everyone thinks the resorts are "lying" about the numbers with Ikon. Of course no one has any proof at all of this other than anecdotal "well it seems busier to me" stories.


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## JimG. (Feb 4, 2020)

Well, I'm not coming from the feeling dissed angle like you guys think. I ski weekdays, I don't really care. And since this is only my second year as a K passholder it's not like I'm a loyal and long time skier there. 

Just trying to figure out how K profits from the current set up. I don't see any chance that K would become an unlimited Ikon resort. I would do nothing to annoy any season passholders anywhere. Clearly that has happened at some ski areas, probably not so much K.

Trying to figure out the endgame.


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## prsboogie (Feb 4, 2020)

Just a general question, what is the early season price of the K pass?

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## cdskier (Feb 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I don't see any chance that K would become an unlimited Ikon resort.



I agree. The only resorts you'll see become unlimited on Ikon are ones that Alterra outright owns. And I don't see them buying K. Everyone else is a partner with 5/7 days depending on the pass you buy.


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## skiur (Feb 5, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Just a general question, what is the early season price of the K pass?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app



About $1000

I have been a K passholder for over 15 years with 30+ days a year.  My first pass there was in the ASC days with the $350 bronze pass and back then the mountain was a zoo.  When powdr bought K and nyburg took over he drove away many and skier visits were way down and pass prices started going way up.  It was nice that the mountain wasn't crowded on the weekend, but not much money was put back into the mountain. (no new lifts, shorter season, less snowmaking etc.)  After Solimano took over they started going back to what they used to be and crowds started to come back, but even with the ikon pass they last few years it is no where near busy like it was in the early 2000's.  I for one have not noticed a major uptick in the last two years with the ikon pass so I dont mind it.  If K was a unlimited ikon destination I may feel different.


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## ss20 (Feb 5, 2020)

Also a Killington passholder here.  Don't say that IKON can't make as much money for the mountain as a season pass.  If you look at a per day basis, I'm sure K gets more $$$ per day with Ikon compared to someone who buys an unlimited pass and skis 80+ days at K and is paying less than $10 per day.  That said, not too many K passholders skiing 80+ days a year will jump ship to Ikon...totally different markets.  With Sugarbush being owned by Alterra and most likely going unlimited Ikon next season tho it's a real possibility some K regulars will go up the road to SB.  Cheaper pass, great terrain, and they'll still get 5/7 days at Killington. 

Personally I am considering Ikon base+Killington spring pass next season.  With that matrix I'd ski roughly 5 days at Stratton, 5-8 days at SB, and still get 20+ days at Killington, mostly in the spring.  Also want to get to Sugarloaf.  But I'm still not sure if Ikon base is worth those 15-20 ski days.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The problem is everyone thinks the resorts are "lying" about the numbers with Ikon. Of course *no one has any proof at all of this other than anecdotal "well it seems busier to me" stories*.



Well that's clearly not true.  When you have numerous people who've skied the same areas for decades all tell you that in the last few years of EPIC & IKON they're seeing things they've never seen before in terms of crowding regardless of feast or famine snow years, something is up.  Pictures of parking lots that never overflow, overflowing are empirical, etc.....


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2020)

machski said:


> Why is this so far fetched?



It's not at all far-fetched from the consumer standpoint at all, it's the business standpoint that I'm not comfortable with.  He claims Killington visits are the SAME pre & post-IKON, it's just that many people are apparently now IKON visitors.  How is it possible that that does that not impact the Killington margin negatively?   

The other thing I think is odd is allowing & being okay with a 3rd-party competitor to "control" such a huge portion of your revenue in the Killington case (again, if he is to be believed).  If I worked there, I would warn, _"Alterra aint our friend"_ and this is an unequal symbiotic relationship at best.  

 Do Killington (and other resorts) REALLY believe that the day isnt going to come when Alterra & Vail start to "squeeze" them if & when "cooperation" becomes "dependence"?  Alterra & Vail hold the data, they are keenly aware just how many days are used at every resort.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well that's clearly not true.  When you have numerous people who've skied the same areas for decades all tell you that in the last few years of EPIC & IKON they're seeing things they've never seen before in terms of crowding regardless of feast or famine snow years, something is up.  Pictures of parking lots that never overflow, overflowing are empirical, etc.....



Umm...we're literally only in the SECOND year of Ikon existing. But somehow people have seen the impact for a few years already? With only 1 full year of data, how can you even say we've seen the same thing during feast or famine snow years? Last year was a great snow year nationally. Even MRG saw their visits up 11% last year and they're not on Ikon or Epic!


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Umm...we're literally only in the SECOND year of Ikon existing.



EPIC's been around longer & experiences the same ********.   

But even with IKON, when it happens at numerous places simultaneously I fail to see why you think we need 4 or 5 or X years of data.  

The ****show currently occurring at Jackson Hole that you read about is enough to make me a believer.  The late season crowd I saw this year at Deer Valley with my own eyes is enough to make me a believer.  A crowded lodge at the base of Magic Mountain filled with Stratton skiers last year (most of who claimed "_they dont ski Stratton_" or literally told me they're only hitting Stratton due to IKON) is enough to make me a believer.  The heretofore unheard of traffic jams in BCC are empirical evidence enough to make me a believer.  These are just SOME of the examples which could be listed, not a comprehensive list.


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## Edd (Feb 5, 2020)

I’ve no doubt Epic/Ikon are adding to crowds, but it has been pointed out on here that Bretton Woods and Gunstock, not on these superpasses, ran out of parking on MLK Sunday, the same day other eastern resorts that are on these passes, got overran. 

A good friend of mine manages the ski/snowboard department at Kittery Trading Post. They’ve seen noticeable sales increases this year, just mobbed some weekends. He’s thinking people are just generally “getting outside more”. 


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## EPB (Feb 5, 2020)

Edd said:


> I’ve no doubt Epic/Ikon are adding to crowds, but it has been pointed out on here that Bretton Woods and Gunstock, not on these superpasses, ran out of parking on MLK Sunday, the same day other eastern resorts that are on these passes, got overran.
> 
> A good friend of mine manages the ski/snowboard department at Kittery Trading Post. They’ve seen noticeable sales increases this year, just mobbed some weekends. He’s thinking people are just generally “getting outside more”.
> 
> ...



It's been a long time since the last recession and the economy is running hot. There's no doubt that's playing a role on top of the Epic/IKON effect. Even without superpasses, we should expect high visit numbers.

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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2020)

The last two posts illustrate a big argument I'm making...that there are a lot more variables at play than simply Epic/Ikon. MRG's numbers were up 11% last year...

And I'll also state that if the Epic/Ikon contribution to crowding is so significant, then there MUST be other resorts that are LESS crowded. Has anyone seen any non-Epic/Ikon resorts that have seen a decrease in crowds as a result of Epic/Ikon pulling so many people to their resorts?


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## EPB (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> And I'll also state that if the Epic/Ikon contribution to crowding is so significant, then there MUST be other resorts that are LESS crowded.



This statement is false when industry wide visits are growing. The Epic/IKON segment of the market could just grow at a faster rate (e.g. the industry grows visits 5%, super pass resorts see 10% growth and non super pass resorts see 2% growth). The super pass resorts that were already crowded could move into unbearably crowded territory without forcing skier visits elsewhere into the negative - on average.

When the upper-middle and upper classes haven't seen layoffs in 12 years and consumer confidence is high, the hypothetical I outlined could very well be happening now. In the long run, skiing is not likely to be a real growth industry, and with flat to slightly growing skier visits industry-wide, I do expect independent places to struggle (i.e. almost all growth in visits could come from super pass resorts).

This season, places with limited snowmaking might see a decline in skier visits. That's probably about it.

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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *This statement is false when industry wide visits are growing*. The Epic/IKON segment of the market could just grow at a faster rate (e.g. the industry grows visits 5%, super pass resorts see 10% growth and non super pass resorts see 2% growth). The super pass resorts that were already crowded could move into unbearably crowded territory without forcing skier visits elsewhere into the negative - on average.



However some people have continually made the argument that NSAA data supports the theory that skier visits remain relatively flat (yes you have up years and down years primarily driven by weather, but overall your trend continues to be pretty flat). I've seen some people here argue that Ikon/Epic make things more crowded AND that skier visits overall are not increasing. So my response was based more on if that argument is correct. (I personally maintain we need to see several years of data over both good and bad snow years to fully understand the impact).

My big issue however is that the people with access to the data say one thing, and others (with no access to the data) say they're wrong. I'm not saying Ikon/Epic add nothing, but I also don't believe they add what some people think they add*. When actual traditional season pass-holder visits are up too, how can you blame more crowds primarily on the "Ikon/Epic effect"?

*What people seem to keep forgetting (or ignoring) is that there are a substantial number of Ikon visits that were from people that were already visiting the resorts pre-Ikon. People have simply shifted how they obtain access to the mountain. (Instead of buying a day ticket or a quad pack or something they're now buying Ikon and still skiing roughly the same number of days at some of the partner resorts). There seem to be some people that somehow think all the Ikon people are brand new to the resort and are "additional" people on the mountain. Are there some people that fall in this category? Absolutely. But it doesn't reflect the majority of the Ikon visits from what we're told (and I have no reason/basis to dispute this claim).


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The last two posts illustrate a big argument I'm making...that there are a lot more variables at play than simply Epic/Ikon. MRG's numbers were up 11% last year...
> 
> And I'll also state that if the Epic/Ikon contribution to crowding is so significant, then there MUST be other resorts that are LESS crowded. Has anyone seen any non-Epic/Ikon resorts that have seen a decrease in crowds as a result of Epic/Ikon pulling so many people to their resorts?



I don't think other resorts being less crowded is a necessary consequence of Epic/Ikon resorts being more crowded. There is a natural tendency for people with a ski pass to ski more than those who buy lift tickets every day. And this is likely more so for multi-resprt passes - as folks are less likely to get bored skiing the same place, and also have an interest in at least checking out many of the resorts they now have access to on the pass.

I know my girls and I are skiing more this year than ever before on account of now having Epic Local passes

But hard for me to see people skiing more as a negative impact of the passes. If the crowding ever got so bad that it wasn't fun for most skiers, both skier visits and pass purchases would decline.


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## EPB (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> However some people have continually made the argument that NSAA data supports the theory that skier visits remain relatively flat (yes you have up years and down years primarily driven by weather, but overall your trend continues to be pretty flat). I've seen some people here argue that Ikon/Epic make things more crowded AND that skier visits overall are not increasing. So my response was based more on if that argument is correct. (I personally maintain we need to see several years of data over both good and bad snow years to fully understand the impact).
> 
> My big issue however is that the people with access to the data say one thing, and others (with no access to the data) say they're wrong. I'm not saying Ikon/Epic add nothing, but I also don't believe they add what some people think they add*. When actual traditional season pass-holder visits are up too, how can you blame more crowds primarily on the "Ikon/Epic effect"?
> 
> *What people seem to keep forgetting (or ignoring) is that there are a substantial number of Ikon visits that were from people that were already visiting the resorts pre-Ikon. People have simply shifted how they obtain access to the mountain. (Instead of buying a day ticket or a quad pack or something they're now buying Ikon and still skiing roughly the same number of days at some of the partner resorts). There seem to be some people that somehow think all the Ikon people are brand new to the resort and are "additional" people on the mountain. Are there some people that fall in this category? Absolutely. But it doesn't reflect the majority of the Ikon visits from what we're told (and I have no reason/basis to dispute this claim).


We are definitely in alignment in the long run. I presume you mean Vail/Alterra disclosures vs. visitor perception when you talk about those who know/don't know. 

Assuming that's the case, my one caution is that Vail/Alterra has all the incentive in the world to present the data in a way that makes the additional crowding seem minimal. Also, I alluded to this this earlier, but reaching visit levels on busy days near/over a mountain's max capacity is a key issue that certainly needs to be addressed (see parking issues in the cottonwoods and A Basin as two current/recent examples). Base cam footage at Mt Snow tells a similar story in VT, too.

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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2020)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I don't think other resorts being less crowded is a necessary consequence of Epic/Ikon resorts being more crowded. There is a natural tendency for people with a ski pass to ski more than those who buy lift tickets every day. And this is likely more so for multi-resprt passes - as folks are less likely to get bored skiing the same place, and also have an interest in at least checking out many of the resorts they now have access to on the pass.
> 
> I know my girls and I are skiing more this year than ever before on account of now having Epic Local passes
> 
> But hard for me to see people skiing more as a negative impact of the passes. If the crowding ever got so bad that it wasn't fun for most skiers, both skier visits and pass purchases would decline.



I agree with much of what you're saying. However the industry keeps telling us skier visits are "flat". You can't have it both ways. Either there's a legitimate increase being seen due to multi-resort passes if even the non-multi-pass resorts aren't seeing a decrease, or if visits really are "flat", then someone, somewhere, is losing visits.



eastern powder baby said:


> We are definitely in alignment in the long run. I presume you mean Vail/Alterra disclosures vs. visitor perception when you talk about those who know/don't know.
> 
> Assuming that's the case, my one caution is that Vail/Alterra has all the incentive in the world to present the data in a way that makes the additional crowding seem minimal. Also, I alluded to this this earlier, but reaching visit levels on busy days near/over a mountain's max capacity is a key issue that certainly needs to be addressed (see parking issues in the cottonwoods and A Basin as two current/recent examples). Base cam footage at Mt Snow tells a similar story in VT, too.



Yes. Although I would also argue that if they were actually lying about the data, at some point they will be caught and it would bite them in the ass. So there's definitely some incentive for them to be telling the truth. Many of the reports were also coming from resorts that were simply partners with Alterra and not owned by them, so there's definitely risk there as well for those resorts to be lying simply to protect Ikon/Alterra.


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## EPB (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I agree with much of what you're saying. However the industry keeps telling us skier visits are "flat". You can't have it both ways. Either there's a legitimate increase being seen due to multi-resort passes if even the non-multi-pass resorts aren't seeing a decrease, or if visits really are "flat", then someone, somewhere, is losing visits.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Although I would also argue that if they were actually lying about the data, at some point they will be caught and it would bite them in the ass. So there's definitely some incentive for them to be telling the truth. Many of the reports were also coming from resorts that were simply partners with Alterra and not owned by them, so there's definitely risk there as well for those resorts to be lying simply to protect Ikon/Alterra.


I had a feeling what I said would come off that way. I'm not saying there lying, merely that they're emphasizing ways of looking at the data that put them in a good light and ignoring the ones that are more negative. I remember a data-based defense they made about Aspen. Everything they said could very well be true, but they might have omitted the fact that they had more people on the hill than they ever wanted on MLK weekend, for example. 

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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I had a feeling what I said would come off that way. I'm not saying there lying, merely that they're emphasizing ways of looking at the data that put them in a good light and ignoring the ones that are more negative. I remember a data-based defense they made about Aspen. Everything they said could very well be true, but they might have omitted the fact that they had more people on the hill than they ever wanted on MLK weekend, for example.



Well, I understood what you said and perhaps didn't elaborate my response enough to fully acknowledge that you weren't implying they were lying. I realize there are ways to present the data differently, but if a resort says "skier visits overall were up x%, season pass-holder visits were up y%, and Ikon only made up z% of overall volume", then that's the part I'm saying they'd need to avoid lying about. Sure, you can have a majority of your Ikon visits all show up on just a few select days (i.e. powder days). And that's something you'd likely leave out. I fully agree there. So of course those are the days people focus on and get "pissed" off about. Of course those are also the same days in the past that people would use up vouchers and pre-paid quad pack type tickets. Short of saying that "powder days are reserved for traditional season pass-holders only", I don't see how you can address a crowding issue on a high demand day. Not really Ikon/Epic's fault.


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## EPB (Feb 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Well, I understood what you said and perhaps didn't elaborate my response enough to fully acknowledge that you weren't implying they were lying. I realize there are ways to present the data differently, but if a resort says "skier visits overall were up x%, season pass-holder visits were up y%, and Ikon only made up z% of overall volume", then that's the part I'm saying they'd need to avoid lying about. Sure, you can have a majority of your Ikon visits all show up on just a few select days (i.e. powder days). And that's something you'd likely leave out. I fully agree there. So of course those are the days people focus on and get "pissed" off about. Of course those are also the same days in the past that people would use up vouchers and pre-paid quad pack type tickets. Short of saying that "powder days are reserved for traditional season pass-holders only", I don't see how you can address a crowding issue on a high demand day. Not really Ikon/Epic's fault.


Totally hear you. It's tough when we're all firing of condensed thoughts on our phones. 

The only difference I'd say vs. the four packs is that the super passes give holders a really wide net to cast. This likely exacerbates crowding in UT and CO where they can be more flexible than if they had four packs for a few places when resort X but not Y gets a good weather event.

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## drjeff (Feb 6, 2020)

I think another thing to consider in this very good debate, is that while there may very well be more people on any given hill on any given day now, are there necessarily any more people who consider themselves skiers/riders in the country right now vs in the past?

That might be one way that the data is being looked at, is that is the sport "growing" in terms of total number of people who consider themselves skiers/riders verses is the sport "growing" in terms of total number of skier/rider visits at a resort and/or across the country per year.

The NSAA and various other organizations involved in the ski business have said that one of their key things that they're targeting now is to grow the total number of skiers/riders in the country.

There's just plenty of ways that one can look at data


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 6, 2020)

Is it total visits (pass holders + day sales) that are flat, or total revenue (pass sales + day sales) that is flat or is it day sales that are flat?


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## Smellytele (Feb 6, 2020)

Thought it was total visits


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## machski (Feb 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not at all far-fetched from the consumer standpoint at all, it's the business standpoint that I'm not comfortable with.  He claims Killington visits are the SAME pre & post-IKON, it's just that many people are apparently now IKON visitors.  How is it possible that that does that not impact the Killington margin negatively?
> 
> The other thing I think is odd is allowing & being okay with a 3rd-party competitor to "control" such a huge portion of your revenue in the Killington case (again, if he is to be believed).  If I worked there, I would warn, _"Alterra aint our friend"_ and this is an unequal symbiotic relationship at best.
> 
> Do Killington (and other resorts) REALLY believe that the day isnt going to come when Alterra & Vail start to "squeeze" them if & when "cooperation" becomes "dependence"?  Alterra & Vail hold the data, they are keenly aware just how many days are used at every resort.


Well, look, Powdr has a bit different relationship with Alterra when it comes to partners.  Why do I say that?  Because Copper and Eldora, while Powdr owned and operated, are unlimited Ikon on base and full.  They are the only partner resorts like that, mostly because they allow Alterra to leverage against Vail in Colorado (along with Winter Park).  So in this way, Killington I suppose could possibly go unlimited since Powdr already has similar arrangements, but I don't really see that happening.  Especially now that Alterra owns SB in addition to Stratton.  It will be interesting to see if Killington looses Ikon visits next season, depending on how Alterra elects to play Stratton/Sugarbush moving forward.

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## Orca (Feb 7, 2020)

WSJ article, 6 February 2020

Are Ski Resorts Getting Too Crowded? Yes and No


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 7, 2020)

Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow.  You'd think it was 35".


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## snoseek (Feb 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow.  You'd think it was 35".



And that's technically a midweek day. 

I'm enjoying a nice break from this kind of shit this winter and loving it.


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## Edd (Feb 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hope they're having an EPIC day in 15" of new snow.  You'd think it was 35".



Where is this?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 7, 2020)

Edd said:


> Where is this?



Vail.    The crazy thing is the highway was shut down with apparently miles of backed-up traffic, meaning it could have been worse.


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## Not Sure (Feb 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Vail.    The crazy thing is the highway was shut down with apparently miles of backed-up traffic, meaning it could have been worse.



Video from Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/skiing/comments/f0cblu/lift_line_apocalypse_at_vail_after_a_17_dump/


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2020)

To be fair, Vail only has five lifts coming out of the base that gets you to the Upper Mountain, which is a real problem when you have 20-30k people showing up to ski on a busy day.  My experience there has been once you're up top, there's no where near that chaos.  

That said, I have zero desire to go back there. I went because it's Vail and at the time it was the biggest ski area in the US, so I wanted to see that.  Disneyland base villages aren't my thing and the terrain isn't all that exciting compared to their neighbors. Sure, they have better terrain and snow than anywhere in the East, but the overall experience sucks for my tastes.  I'd rather ski Loveland, ABasin, Highlands etc.  

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## raisingarizona (Feb 7, 2020)

Teton Village this morning


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## Scruffy (Feb 7, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> Teton Village this morning
> 
> View attachment 26198



Looks bad, but that is *before* the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes. The best tactic is to wait for the first load to go, then it's a breeze. I was there last week and skied 6 days.  Only line I had to *wait more than 3 minutes* for ( not counting the morning lineup like in that picture ) was the tram (and the tram is always a wait). It snowed every day except one, and we had fresh 6-8 inches at the top most mornings, not killer, but considering they got 11 feet before that, there was plenty of snow. If fact, it was a lot less crowed last week than last year when I was there about this time.

Edited to add: most lifts out of base area were ski on, or ~1 minute wait.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 7, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Looks bad, but that is *before* the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes. The best tactic is to wait for the first load to go, then it's a breeze. I was there last week and skied 6 days.  Only line I had to *wait more than 3 minutes* for ( not counting the morning lineup like in that picture ) was the tram (and the tram is always a wait). It snowed every day except one, and we had fresh 6-8 inches at the top most mornings, not killer, but considering they got 11 feet before that, there was plenty of snow. If fact, it was a lot less crowed last week than last year when I was there about this time.
> 
> Edited to add: most lifts out of base area were ski on, or ~1 minute wait.



If you skied there regularly 20 years ago you would feel differently. It was all about the tram, all day long. All of January was walk on’s.

As for the other lifts out of the base, there’s only two that count.


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## Scruffy (Feb 7, 2020)

I did ski there 20 years ago. What about my post says I love the new normal? I'm simply saying I still ski there and enjoy all the skiing I can handle each day with minimal lift lines once the morning rush is done.
And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.


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## abc (Feb 7, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.


What do you mean “minimal hassle” when it comes to the Sublette chair? 20 mins?

That’s how long the lift line on a Saturday last year.


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## Scruffy (Feb 7, 2020)

abc said:


> What do you mean “minimal hassle” when it comes to the Sublette chair? 20 mins?
> 
> That’s how long the lift line on a Saturday last year.



Skied there a lot; every year. Never seen a line on the Sublette chair even approach 20 min. Guess I've been lucky.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 7, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Looks bad, but that is *before* the lifts open and that crowd will all be dispersed within 20 minutes.



Oh god, who cares is my reaction.  I just have no desire to ski someplace where that's a thing, goes against all the reasons I recreate with skiing to begin with.  That's a horror show, even if you "only" have to deal with it for 30 minutes.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh god, who cares is my reaction.  I just have no desire to ski someplace where that's a thing, goes against all the reasons I recreate with skiing to begin with.  That's a horror show, even if you "only" have to deal with it for 30 minutes.



I don’t anymore either. 

If Jackson plans to stay on ikon they better also be planning on another gondola from the base to move people up and out. Probably up the lower faces to a spot that can get you to the thunder and sublets chairs.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 7, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> I did ski there 20 years ago. What about my post says I love the new normal? I'm simply saying I still ski there and enjoy all the skiing I can handle each day with minimal lift lines once the morning rush is done.
> And the Sublette chair will get you most of the terrain the Tram does without the hassle.



Sublette and thunder laps are fun but the red box is the ticket. If you know you know, if you don’t......you don’t


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 7, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *Vail only has five lifts coming out of the base that gets you to the Upper Mountain, which is a real problem when you have 20-30k people showing up to ski on a busy day.*  My experience there has been once you're up top, there's no where near that chaos.
> 
> That said, *I have zero desire to go back there. *I went because it's Vail and at the time it was the biggest ski area in the US, so I wanted to see that.  *Disneyland base villages aren't my thing and the terrain isn't all that exciting compared to their neighbors.* Sure, they have better terrain and snow than anywhere in the East, but* the overall experience sucks for my tastes.*  I'd rather ski Loveland, ABasin, Highlands etc.


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## Scruffy (Feb 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh god, who cares is my reaction.  I just have no desire to ski someplace where that's a thing, goes against all the reasons I recreate with skiing to begin with.  That's a horror show, even if you "only" have to deal with it for 30 minutes.



I've had longer lift line waits at Magic, MRG, and Castle Rock chair, and this was *before* IKON/EPIC, than anywhere else.  At Jackson Hole there are 5 lifts up mountain away from the base, it's a huge place that distributes a lot of people. If you know where to ski there, even on what might seem like a crowded day at the base in the morning before the lifts open, you can ski without crowds.


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## Scruffy (Feb 8, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> Sublette and thunder laps are fun but the red box is the ticket. If you know you know, if you don’t......you don’t



Yup, know all about it.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2020)

Today's even worse than yesterday.

Remember folks, it has nothing to do with EPIC.  This is 100% due to the nice storm they just got.


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## slatham (Feb 8, 2020)

Epic or not, that's crazy. Strange, but if you go to Vail on a family vacation you almost want to root against a big dump so you can actually get some skiing in!

Anyone glance at the A-Basin cam this morning? Wondering how good/bad the line was.....


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2020)

slatham said:


> Epic or not, that's crazy. Strange, but if you go to Vail on a family vacation you almost want to root against a big dump so you can actually get some skiing in!


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 8, 2020)

^
Hard pass

Scruffy I was watching MRG webcam this morning and the single chair line was very long, probably a good half hour wait. But, I mean it's a single chair and it only gets like that on powder day weekends.

Still doesn't compare to the photos above.



slatham said:


> Epic or not, that's crazy. Strange, but if you go  to Vail on a family vacation you almost want to root against a big dump  so you can actually get some skiing in!



Absolutely, I'll take moguls a few days later over standing in line all day imagining skiing powder.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> Hard pass
> 
> Scruffy I was watching MRG webcam this morning and the single chair line was very long, probably a good half hour wait. But, I mean it's a single chair and it only gets like that on powder day weekends.



I also cant imagine a line like that at Magic either, given they actually restrict sales so lines cant get that insane.  Nor have I seen the Castlerock chair get like that, but I've never been there on a PDW Saturday so who knows, that said, I'm surprised you could even get that many Castlerock skiers gathered given the expert-only egress terrain.  Maybe next year though, given Sugarbush is truly IKONic now!


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 8, 2020)

^
Castlerock lines may not be that long but it's one of the slowest moving lines in Vermont. Widest spacing between chairs on any lift I know of.


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## Scruffy (Feb 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I also cant imagine a line like that at Magic either, given they actually restrict sales so lines cant get that insane.  Nor have I seen the Castlerock chair get like that, but I've never been there on a PDW Saturday so who knows, that said, I'm surprised you could even get that many Castlerock skiers gathered given the expert-only egress terrain.  Maybe next year though, given Sugarbush is truly IKONic now!



That's why I worded it the "lift line wait", not the actual number of people in line; of course CR wouldn't even hold the number of people pictured at Vail above in that small area at the bottom of lift. I've never been in a line like the pictures above, and I hope not to. I don't ski Vail. But the whole front range is gone off the charts in part due to everyone and their brother moving to Denver, and skier retirees moving to the front range ski area condos, and of course the cheap mega passes--which cheap season passes started at Winter Park BTW way back in the 90's before EPIC. 

 The longest I waited in a lift line was 40 minutes on the Black chair at Magic one glorious sunny Saturday after a dump. Jackson Hole last week was mostly ski on. Again that picture of Teton Village is misleading. All the lifts at JH open at 9:00 sharp, not a minute earlier. Everyone seems to think they need to line up starting at 8:00. For the tram I can see it, but not necessary for the other lifts, unless it's a true powder day of course.


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## Zermatt (Feb 8, 2020)

Makes Stratton look tame today.

Ursa this morning when only AMEX, Ursa and Sunbowl were open.


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## Smellytele (Feb 8, 2020)

With vail the issue is standing in a line like that after paying almost $200


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2020)

From a Sugarbush SPH on FB:



> _*Been here for 15 years and the lines today were absurd, largest crowd ever at Sugarbush*_



Another IKONic day.


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## machski (Feb 8, 2020)

Was at Steamboat today.  The Gondola here was similar in the morning prior to open, the lift lines exited Gondola square.  Painful but once the surge got uphill, wasn't bad at other lifts.  And adding to the new snow was the fact that winter carnival was this weekend in town.

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## kingslug (Feb 9, 2020)

St Anton main gondola lift line..88 lifts and most were shut due to avi danger..crazy lift lines can be anywhere due to many types of issues..guess we have to deal with it or find obscure places to ski.
And you just have to experience European lift lines to appreciate how orderly our are..
The bottpm pic is the insanity of apres ski


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## Smellytele (Feb 9, 2020)

Made the mistake yesterday of getting to Cannon early and thinking I would catch first tram. I was within the first 30 or so people in line. at 8:15 they told us there was a delay as they had to tow a snow cat down. (why not just close the trails they were coming down.) At 8:30 they told us all lifts were delayed. So I stood there until 9. I got frustrated and went and drove to the zoomer chair and much to my surprise people were skiing down and the lift was running. All I ask for is communication well with correct information.

Then had to wait a 1/2 hr in the zoomer line. Found out Mittersill was open so made the trek over there from the top of the zoomer. No real lines over there (1st run had a 5 minute wait then ski on) and took 4 runs over there which were great. Saw the Peabody running so went back. Then made my next mistake. Skied down to the tram. the line was out the door but was trapped. An hour later I final got to the top. Cannanball was still not running so went back to the zoomer which had no lines and pumped out 6 or 7 runs there and decided to check to see if the cannonball was open. Luckily it was and with out a line.

I will go back to my normal MOP and park by the zoomer and start there...


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## Edd (Feb 9, 2020)

30 minute wait for the Zoomer, holy shit. I would have given up, I’m sure. 


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## dblskifanatic (Feb 9, 2020)

slatham said:


> Epic or not, that's crazy. Strange, but if you go to Vail on a family vacation you almost want to root against a big dump so you can actually get some skiing in!
> 
> Anyone glance at the A-Basin cam this morning? Wondering how good/bad the line was.....



A Basin lines have been really good.  We ended up at Breck to avoid the 70.  After seeing the lines at Breck I wish we would have gone to A Basin.  My son was at Keystone and the lines were ok there.  Loveland Pass was closed due to avalanche danger so that might have pushed people elsewhere.

Funny thing - the areas where people wanted go  chase powder were not accessible unless you hiked.  None of the Bowls were opened.  The Peak 8 super Connect broke down so people at Peak 9 were left with Peak 9 and Peak 10 and the E Chair.  With all the people - shit got tracked out fast except for the trees.

BTW even the back way took an hour longer than normal which we have not experienced before.


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 9, 2020)

Coming to an Epic resort near you...
Vail yesterday


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> From a Sugarbush SPH on FB:
> 
> 
> 
> Another IKONic day.



Meh...I skied Friday, Saturday, and today at Sugarbush. I never waited more than maybe 4 minutes in a lift line and often much less (with the exception of Castlerock, but that doesn't really count). MLK Saturday this year was worse (an Ikon base blackout day btw). 

If a major resort isn't crowded after nearly 2 feet of fresh snow falls just in time for a weekend in the middle of winter, then there's a serious problem. I really don't know how people expect to show up on a day like this past Saturday and expect to have the mountain to themselves...

I think a lot of people today are spoiled (or have bad memory). I remember having 15-20 minutes lines to ski 600 feet of vertical in the Poconos when I was younger. I remember long lift lines at Killington and Okemo years ago.

If the data on New England Ski History is accurate, then Sugarbush had higher skier visits in 1980 than they do today. No Ikon back then. And if the person complaining has been a passholder for 15 years, that basically means they started skiing at SB when SB had some of their lowest skier visits on record (which was not a good thing from a sustainability perspective). Sugarbush has seen their skier visits steadily increasing for a number of years now. I'm sure Ikon is adding some people, but I also think the "crowding" complaints are massively overblown. And I say this as a nearly 10 year SPH.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 9, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Meh...I skied Friday, Saturday, and today at Sugarbush. I never waited more than maybe 4 minutes in a lift line and often much less (with the exception of Castlerock, but that doesn't really count). MLK Saturday this year was worse (an Ikon base blackout day btw).
> 
> If a major resort isn't crowded after nearly 2 feet of fresh snow falls just in time for a weekend in the middle of winter, then there's a serious problem. I really don't know how people expect to show up on a day like this past Saturday and expect to have the mountain to themselves...
> 
> ...


I generally agree with this. 

One thing not brought up in this running debate is are the huge crowd days more concentrated today than they were back in the 80s?   In other words, there's far better forecasting and live information about when it snows in the mountains than ever before.  Does that produce greater swings in typical weekend business than it did in the past? 

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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I generally agree with this.
> 
> One thing not brought up in this running debate is are the huge crowd days more concentrated today than they were back in the 80s?   In other words, there's far better forecasting and live information about when it snows in the mountains than ever before.  Does that produce greater swings in typical weekend business than it did in the past?



It is certainly possible. I'd love be able to dive much deeper into data like that, but unfortunately it simply isn't available to us. Back in the 80s, it was also a lot more work to find lodging last minute so I suspect there was far more planning in advance and just going whether the weather was good or bad at the time you planned to go.

Another interesting difference in terms of live information, we're also now more acutely aware of the crowds thanks to the Internet and social media. Back in the 80s if you wanted to share a photo of crowds, you'd have to wait until you get home, get the film developed, and then show people in person the picture. Now you can snap a photo with a smartphone and share it with potentially millions of people in seconds...


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## AdironRider (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It is certainly possible. I'd love be able to dive much deeper into data like that, but unfortunately it simply isn't available to us. Back in the 80s, it was also a lot more work to find lodging last minute so I suspect there was far more planning in advance and just going whether the weather was good or bad at the time you planned to go.
> 
> Another interesting difference in terms of live information, we're also now more acutely aware of the crowds thanks to the Internet and social media. Back in the 80s if you wanted to share a photo of crowds, you'd have to wait until you get home, get the film developed, and then show people in person the picture. Now you can snap a photo with a smartphone and share it with potentially millions of people in seconds...



It is not like they didn't have weathermen back in the 80's, or radar, etc. I don't think forecasting has changed much for the common man other than getting to look at pretty infrared maps online. 

Everyone keeps making excuses for mountain management completely dropping the ball on crowd management. From an operations standpoint it is a complete and total fail at pretty much every Ikon resort. 

PS, whoever said they skied 6 straight days at Jackson and never waited in a line is straight up lying. I've kept quiet this year on this problem after shouting from rooftops last year but I have lived here for 15 years and Ikon has made a noticeable difference. In the 15 years I've been here pow morning wait times have doubled while uphill capacity from the base has also doubled. Almost 200k increase in skier visits last year. That is like 40% for Jackson. IN ONE YEAR. 

People act like it is a good thing but I live here. I am invested in sustainable growth for the area, but this is unsustainable and will have an affect on my livelihood and income if not kept under wraps in the medium to long term and people decide, ya know, this shit isn't worth it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 10, 2020)

Stowe was a mad house Saturday.  in a 6.5 mile queue on the Mountain Road at 7:55.  Opted to Park at Tollhouse vs hoping I got a spot up top at 8:25.   

Was it the 19" of snow or the Epic Pass?  You decide...  

Friday and Sunday were busy but manageable.  Glad I hit the storm. Vermont does a shitty job of clearing their roads. Seemed worse than I had ever experienced in the past.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> *It is not like they didn't have weathermen back in the 80's, or radar, etc. I don't think forecasting has changed much for the common man other than getting to look at pretty infrared maps online. *
> 
> Everyone keeps making excuses for mountain management completely dropping the ball on crowd management. From an operations standpoint it is a complete and total fail at pretty much every Ikon resort.



This.  I was going to comment the same thing.  It's was the 1980s and 1990s, not the 1680's and 1690's, we weren't relying on Galileo during the Clinton Administration. LOL


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## kingslug (Feb 10, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Stowe was a mad house Saturday.  in a 6.5 mile queue on the Mountain Road at 7:55.  Opted to Park at Tollhouse vs hoping I got a spot up top at 8:25.
> 
> Was it the 19" of snow or the Epic Pass?  You decide...
> 
> Friday and Sunday were busy but manageable.  Glad I hit the storm. Vermont does a shitty job of clearing their roads. Seemed worse than I had ever experienced in the past.


My place is behind Sushi Oshi..I get up at 6 and am at the Edelweiss by 630 and the lodge by 650..its the only way to get decent parking and my 730 chair.


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## WinS (Feb 10, 2020)

When I first started skiing at Sugarbush, I remember having to park on the access road which would not be allowed today. The “Sugar Bravo” triple could be 30 minutes plus. Only took the Gatehouse double to get to the North Lynx Poma. Private lessons did great because that allowed you to cut the lines. Not very much snowmaking at LP. Then Claneil put in the quad (fastest in the USA) which in now Northridge and we skied mostly at ME until the Otten days when he made the improvements at LP. According to the records we have from that era, there were about the same number of skier visits then as now. Most were day tickets,though,  which is the opposite of now. And, skiing in the woods was not allowed. You lost your pass if caught.  Always fun to look back on  history.


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## 1dog (Feb 10, 2020)

aaah, a walk down memory lane . . . . my 1st year still had a ride in the 3 passenger gondola - no googles and snowing - tough run down- but it was still heaven. 
Miss that Summit building though - 
had the two side-by-side double/triple on Spring Fling, and I think the poma on North Lynx.

North Ridge was the yellow double too!

Summit was always the Summit lift - maybe it was a triple or double in 1982?

I have a red gondola with skis in back hanging in my yard.

In MA I have the #2 original Castlerock chair - yet to be hung.

My 1st Slidebrook was late 90's though - not sure it was 'legal' but it was not roped off.

Now - need dedicated buses just for that. ( or at least larger or more on weekends)

Great weekend in every corner - cold or not.


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## icecoast1 (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This.  I was going to comment the same thing.  It's was the 1980s and 1990s, not the 1680's and 1690's, we weren't relying on Galileo during the Clinton Administration. LOL




Except back in the 80's and 90's you watched the local and evening news or read the paper for the weather.   Today theres cable news, internet, social media, smartphones  etc. that make it possible to see weather where ever you want in real time and sensationalize everything, including pictures of ridiculous lift lines


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2020)

That's kinda what I mean.  You watched the news once or twice a day.  About the only 24 hour weather source prior to the mid to late 90s was the weather station.  

To say that today's information access and distribution isn't vastly different is just not true.  Hell, I grew up 35 miles west of Boston and we didn't have cable TV available on my street until about 1985.  I didn't have an email address or start using the internet until 1998.  



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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Except back in the 80's and 90's you watched the local and evening news or read the paper for the weather.   Today theres cable news, internet, social media, smartphones  etc. that make it possible to see weather where ever you want in real time and sensationalize everything, including pictures of ridiculous lift lines



I agree. While weathermen existed back then, weather forecasting for the common man has changed drastically in the past 10-15 years alone. Back in the 80s/90s, no one had access to the models the way people do now. Now so many people have access to the data that "rumors" of snowstorms start spreading long before you would have heard about it from your local forecast on the nightly news years ago. Weather forecasting has turned more into entertainment where they try to hype up everything. And tons of people buy into it (and make plans around it).

It was also not as easy to know what was going on in other places in the 80s. Most of what you saw on the local news was LOCAL weather. If you lived in NJ, you didn't see VT forecasts (or CO or UT, etc). Maybe if you were lucky enough to have cable tv and had the weather channel you'd possibly see some talk of the weather across the US and might have a chance to know about some bigger snowstorms. Today I can get a forecast for any city no matter how near or far in seconds. People really seem to have forgotten how transformational the Internet really has been in our lives in terms of access to information. It was only in the late 90s that access to the Internet became more mainstream.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Except *back in the 80's and 90's you watched the local and evening news or read the paper for the weather. * *Today theres cable news*, internet, social media, smartphones  etc. that make it possible to see weather where ever you want in real time and sensationalize everything, including pictures of ridiculous lift lines



CNN launched in 1980, The Weather Channel in 1982, even FoxNews & MSNBC were mid-90s.  

It was simple, yes, even in the 1980s to have quick, accurate snowstorm information.  I remember being glued to TWC in the 1980s as a kid for the "Weather On The 8s" for snowstorm updates, which were NWS forecasts.  It's funny how quickly the internet has made people completely forget "the dark ages".



cdskier said:


> *If you lived in NJ, you didn't see VT forecasts (or CO or UT, etc).*



Also completely false (SOURCE:  Child of the 80s born & raised in NJ).  

Some of you are completely incapable of remembering life pre-internet.  Long live the Dewey Decimal System!


----------



## cdskier (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> CNN launched in 1980, The Weather Channel in 1982, even FoxNews & MSNBC were mid-90s.
> 
> It was simple, yes, even in the 1980s to have quick, accurate snowstorm information.  I remember being glued to TWC in the 1980s as a kid for the "Weather On The 8s" for snowstorm updates, which were NWS forecasts.  It's funny how quickly the internet has made people completely forget "the dark ages".
> 
> ...



None of that does any good if you didn't have cable. I was born in the 80s in NJ as well. My family had no cable until the early 90s (at least after 1993 as I remember having only 1 or 2 channels after the first WTC attack when most local channels had their broadcast signal from WTC and only a couple still had backup transmitters on the Empire State building). This was not as uncommon as you seem to think it was...


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## icecoast1 (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> None of that does any good if you didn't have cable. I was born in the 80s in NJ as well. My family had no cable until the early 90s (at least after 1993 as I remember having only 1 or 2 channels after the first WTC attack when most local channels had their broadcast signal from WTC and only a couple still had backup transmitters on the Empire State building). This was not as uncommon as you seem to think it was...




I completely agree.  Most of my childhood was spent without cable.  Not everybody had it and those were the days before smartphones.  Things were different back then.  The info wasnt nearly as accessible as it is today


----------



## x10003q (Feb 10, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> Teton Village this morning
> 
> View attachment 26198



Lifts opened at 9:45am due to avalanche control work on Feb 7th.


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## slatham (Feb 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> I completely agree.  Most of my childhood was spent without cable.  Not everybody had it and those were the days before smartphones.  Things were different back then.  The info wasnt nearly as accessible as it is today



+1

And even those that did have cable, the general awareness of the weather channel was not widespread. That didn't really change until the early 90's with the Perfect Storm (first known as the Halloween storm - was surfing on Long Island) and the Storm of the Century (skiing at Mt Snow).

Also, the accuracy 4-5 days out was not as good as it is today. Not that its great now.....


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *None of that does any good if you didn't have cable.* I was born in the 80s in NJ as well. *My family had no cable until the early 90s*



Where the hell did you grow up, next to the New Jersey Devil's cave in the middle of the Pine Barrens?

I grew up in rural NJ (even had a RR address) and even we had cable in 1984.


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## Cornhead (Feb 10, 2020)

I remember the Blizzard of 93. I pulled into the parking lot at work around 3 in the afternoon the day before the storm. It was sunny, temps in the 40's. I had AM radio on in the car and I recognized the voice on the radio. It was my brother. He was complaining because the Emergency Broadcast System was used to warn of the storm. It wasn't that that bothered him, it was that the fact it was a weather warning wasn't stated right off the bat. After years of hearing the warning tone followed by, "This is a test, this is only a test, if this had been an actual emergency..." The warning said, "This is not a test, details will follow in thirty seconds." Well, I guess my brother assumed the "details" were that Russian nuclear warheads were on their way. As if we'd be told if they were. What's the point? 

So he was the topic of discussion on the radio that week. I think it would've been prudent to state the emergency was weather related from the start. Why would you think it was a warning of a snowstorm? I've heard it used for weather warnings since. Unfortunately I didn't ski back in 93. Fortunately I skied Belleayre and Plattekill during, and after "Stella". Beat the Blizzard of 93 by one inch as Binghamton's largest recorded snowfall, 37".

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## AdironRider (Feb 10, 2020)

x10003q said:


> Lifts opened at 9:45am due to avalanche control work on Feb 7th.



Your point is what exactly, that 2 hour lift lines are totally cool just because it snowed? You act like avi control did not exist previously. 

Opening at 9:45 on a deep day is no different than 20 years ago, actually probably earlier. What is different is waiting twice as long and literally 4x as many people, if not more.


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## AdironRider (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> CNN launched in 1980, The Weather Channel in 1982, even FoxNews & MSNBC were mid-90s.
> 
> It was simple, yes, even in the 1980s to have quick, accurate snowstorm information.  I remember being glued to TWC in the 1980s as a kid for the "Weather On The 8s" for snowstorm updates, which were NWS forecasts.  It's funny how quickly the internet has made people completely forget "the dark ages".
> 
> ...



I'm cracking up here also. Everyone here was just waxing poetic about the snow phone a week ago even or that the weather service didn't issue weather alerts. 

The "back in my day we didn't have cable and I walked uphill to school both ways" comments are a nice touch like living in the NE burbs in 1985 was basically the frontier.


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## Scruffy (Feb 10, 2020)

Mount Snow today was a powder day. 8 inches and no lift lines. 
Skiing for next to nothing on my $329 peak pass. :grin:


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## Edd (Feb 10, 2020)

I heard Wildcat has 6” of fresh with 1 foot drifts and very few people there. 


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Where the hell did you grow up, next to the New Jersey Devil's cave in the middle of the Pine Barrens?
> 
> I grew up in rural NJ (even had a RR address) and even we had cable in 1984.



Oh it was available in my area (Bergen county just a few miles outside of NYC). It just wasn't something my parents saw a need to spend money on. Based on some other responses here, I'm not alone in this. I had a number of friends that didn't have cable either. Stop assuming just because you had it that everyone else did too or that you had to live in the middle of nowhere in order to not have had it. Bottom line is it wasn't a necessity and information was nowhere near as readily available or easily accessible as it is in today's "always connected" world.


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## 1dog (Feb 10, 2020)

Some of you are completely incapable of remembering life pre-internet.  Long live the Dewey Decimal System![/QUOTE]

Dewey was a socialist - as for the pre internet - there was a more romantic theme about a ski weekend - at least until you go there - now, we cancel up to the last nano- second.


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## Zermatt (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Oh it was available in my area (Bergen county just a few miles outside of NYC). It just wasn't something my parents saw a need to spend money on. Based on some other responses here, I'm not alone in this. I had a number of friends that didn't have cable either. Stop assuming just because you had it that everyone else did too or that you had to live in the middle of nowhere in order to not have had it. Bottom line is it wasn't a necessity and information was nowhere near as readily available or easily accessible as it is in today's "always connected" world.



Exactly this. My parents could easily afford cable but it was so foreign to them the thought of paying for TV was just not happening. It wasn't until the early 90s they finally caved in.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 10, 2020)

billo said:


> Exactly this. My parents could easily afford cable but it was so foreign to them the thought of paying for TV was just not happening. It wasn't until the early 90s they finally caved in.



I wanted my MTV I requested that to my dad caved in in early 1990s

We had awesome Atenta on our house in long Island 30 miles from the city before cable was installed.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Oh *it was available in my area (Bergen county just a few miles outside of NYC*). It just wasn't something my parents saw a need to spend money on.



That's entirely different.  You grew up in a wealthy county, a 9-iron from Manhattan, you most certainly had affordable access to cable TV, the fact you specifically didn't was literally your parents life-choice, but your house was in a small minority.  Doesnt change the fact the crap existed for the masses.   This is getting ridiculous.  You didnt even grow up rural like I did, you were a city kid.  If you came out to where I grew up in Jersey, you probably would have asked me where the Indians live; and we all had cable.


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## ss20 (Feb 10, 2020)

Guys...there's snow in the forecast and places are 100% open...sheesh


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's entirely different.  You grew up in a wealthy county, a 9-iron from Manhattan, you most certainly had affordable access to cable TV, the fact you specifically didn't was literally your parents life-choice, but your house was in a small minority.  Doesnt change the fact the crap existed for the masses.   This is getting ridiculous.  You didnt even grow up rural like I did, you were a city kid.  If you came out to where I grew up in Jersey, you probably would have asked me where the Indians live; and we all had cable.



A small minority? In 1980 only 22% of households with TVs had cable. It wasn't until 1987 that we crossed the 50% threshold of houses with TVs that had cable. Even in 1999 it was only up to 68%. Meanwhile 90% of the adult US population uses the Internet today and 81% have smartphones. But sure, keep arguing that information was just as easy to get back in the 80s and 90s as it is today...


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## EPB (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> A small minority? In 1980 only 22% of households with TVs had cable. It wasn't until 1987 that we crossed the 50% threshold of houses with TVs that had cable. Even in 1999 it was only up to 68%. Meanwhile 90% of the adult US population uses the Internet today and 81% have smartphones. But sure, keep arguing that information was just as easy to get back in the 80s and 90s as it is today...


But how many people who could afford to go skiing, or be fanatical skiers had cable?

I was born in the late 80s, but my parents had cable before I was born (and the house, which was built in the early 80s, was likely outfitted with cable lines from the jump). My parents and I are by no means early tech adopter types in our peer groups, but we've run in upper middle class  circles since before I was born. 

Obviously, we won't know the exact answer, but I suspect these numbers would be significantly higher if you could screen out those who didn't or couldn't afford to ski.

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> A small minority? In 1980 only 22% of households with TVs had cable.* It wasn't until 1987 that we crossed the 50% threshold of houses with TVs that had cable.* Even in 1999 it was only up to 68%



Now do affluent northeasterners who come from skiing families.

You know, so your "data" isnt co-mingled with people farming Oklahoma, which is what you posted.

In 1987, the vast majority of reasonably well-off people in the northeast who wanted cable could have cable.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2020)

cool argument.

snowbird was very crowded yesterday (Sunday), but it was a beautiful day after two and a half days of full closure from a whopping storm, so it’s not a surprise. anyway, it was never anything like the co or Jackson pics I’ve seen, and after 1:30 it was basically ski on for singles 

Alta today was so fun and basically empty and it started dumping at 1:30 and continued steady to 8 pm. I’m sure they won’t report more than 2-3” but that refresher will make tomorrow ski awesome


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## cdskier (Feb 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Now do affluent northeasterners who come from skiing families.
> 
> You know, so your "data" isnt co-mingled with people farming Oklahoma, which is what you posted.
> 
> In 1987, the vast majority of reasonably well-off people in the northeast who wanted cable could have cable.



How many people in this thread alone also said they had no cable in the 80s? It would be one hell of a coincidence if this "small minority" that we're supposedly part of happen to be so over-represented in a northeast ski forum.

Additionally, "want" has nothing to do with "need". There's a lot of things I could afford to buy. Doesn't mean I buy them if I don't perceive a need. And cable tv simply wasn't viewed as a need by as many people as you seem to think it was (even among supposedly affluent northeastern skiers).

Never mind the fact that simply having cable tv still didn't make anywhere near as much information so readily available in seconds as it is today. The "information age" has absolutely had an impact on how people make plans and decisions in general. It isn't difficult to believe there's a chance it has had an impact on skier habits as well as DHS theorized...


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## drjeff (Feb 11, 2020)

We could probably just pause this thread for a few days, and then pick back up this weekend...

Holiday weekend, fresh snow on the way on Thursday. Decent forcast for the weekend....

Bring on the long line pics!!

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## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2020)

I lived 35 minutes out of Boston (Salem, NH) and cable was not available on my street until 87. My parents got it in 88. 

On a side note why do people in New England never mention the county they live in while others along the east coast do?


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## EPB (Feb 11, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I lived 35 minutes out of Boston (Salem, NH) and cable was not available on my street until 87. My parents got it in 88.
> 
> On a side note why do people in New England never mention the county they live in while others along the east coast do?


Good question. After living in NJ for a little while now, there are just too many towns to keep track of. They seem to comprise smaller land areas than in MA save for inside 128 (e.g. Brookline). In the NYC metro alone, there's northern NJ, parts of central NJ (?), Long Island, north of NYC in NY, and parts of CT. Simply too many places to remember. It's much easier to say what county you're from. We also have county highways down here - not something I remember from growing up in NH and MA.

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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 11, 2020)

what I really want to know is who had one of these and how did it affect their north country weather watching?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 11, 2020)

I think the key proof that access to information has had an impact on ski area traffic is the booking and cancellation behavior of skiers now vs then.  And that goes for any weather dependent destination.  People are booking and cancelling far more last minute than ever before.  Hell, in my resort managemnt classes at UVM in the late 90s I remember this being taught by my college professors and also commonly brought up by industry leaders who would guest lecture.  They all said this was a changing reality that made it more difficult to forecast business and resulted in having to be more dynamic in their pricing.

Why?  We were entering the "information age."

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## NYDB (Feb 11, 2020)

drjeff said:


> We could probably just pause this thread for a few days, and then pick back up this weekend...
> 
> Holiday weekend, fresh snow on the way on Thursday. Decent forcast for the weekend....
> 
> ...



yeah sunday should be insane at the big resorts.

I think the temps might make people skip or at least sleep very late sat AM


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## machski (Feb 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This.  I was going to comment the same thing.  It's was the 1980s and 1990s, not the 1680's and 1690's, we weren't relying on Galileo during the Clinton Administration. LOL


Yes, but we all didn't have phone's we could pull up live radar and keep track ourselves at all times of day in the 80's and 90's.  Tracking it on our computers only became a thing in the 90's.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2020)

I had this guy:


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2020)

And this guy:


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> simply having cable tv still didn't make anywhere near as much information so readily available in seconds as it is today.



You have a habit of frequently moving the goalposts when you discuss things.  The fact information is "available in seconds" today as opposed to "waiting 15 minutes" for TWC is completely irrelevant to the discussion of *whether people knew what the weather would be like this weekend in 1985 or 1995.*  Spoiler alert, they did.  For additional helpful reminders, you didn't have a brick oven stove in your kitchen in 1985, and you didnt rely on horse & buggy for primary transportation in 1995.



machski said:


> Yes, but we all didn't have phone's we could *pull up live radar and keep track ourselves at all times of day* in the 80's and 90's.



True; and everyone know this, but again, completely irrelevant to the topic.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You have a habit of frequently moving the goalposts when you discuss things.  The fact information is "available in seconds" today as opposed to "waiting 15 minutes" for TWC is completely irrelevant to the discussion of *whether people knew what the weather would be like this weekend in 1985 or 1995.*



What goal posts exactly did I move? To refresh your memory, here's what I said:


cdskier said:


> It was also not as easy to know what was going on in other places in the 80s. Most of what you saw on the local news was LOCAL weather. If you lived in NJ, you didn't see VT forecasts (or CO or UT, etc). *Maybe if you were lucky enough to have cable tv and had the weather channel you'd possibly see some talk of the weather across the US and might have a chance to know about some bigger snowstorms. Today I can get a forecast for any city no matter how near or far in seconds. People really seem to have forgotten how transformational the Internet really has been in our lives in terms of access to information. *It was only in the late 90s that access to the Internet became more mainstream.



Looks to me like I'm still making the same argument...


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## tumbler (Feb 11, 2020)

Are you two really arguing over cable tv in the 80's & 90's?  Either go skiing or get laid.  Sheesh.


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## cdskier (Feb 11, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Are you two really arguing over cable tv in the 80's & 90's?  Either go skiing or get laid.  Sheesh.



I had 3 great days of skiing at Sugarbush this past weekend...but now it is mid-week so arguing will have to keep me entertained for a bit.


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## kingslug (Feb 11, 2020)

I watch youtube vids of skiing...


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the key proof that access to information has had an impact on ski area traffic is the booking and cancellation behavior of skiers now vs then.  And that goes for any weather dependent destination.  People are booking and cancelling far more last minute than ever before.  Hell, in my resort managemnt classes at UVM in the late 90s I remember this being taught by my college professors and also commonly brought up by industry leaders who would guest lecture.  They all said this was a changing reality that made it more difficult to forecast business and resulted in having to be more dynamic in their pricing.
> 
> Why?  We were entering the "information age."
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I disagree with cancellation.  I was a season Pass Holder a Sugarbush for the past 5 years.  We wanted to try the Ikon Pass this year so we can ski different areas.  We will probably go back to Sugarbush next year.  But before I rented at SB seasonal I would rent for the weekend just like most people on this thread.  I got to tell you, 6 years ago I could book a place the week of. Now you have to book a place a month out and there is no cancellation policy on VRBO.  It is much harder to rent a place for the weekend now because of the superpasses.


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## x10003q (Feb 11, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Your point is what exactly, that 2 hour lift lines are totally cool just because it snowed? You act like avi control did not exist previously.
> 
> Opening at 9:45 on a deep day is no different than 20 years ago, actually probably earlier. What is different is waiting twice as long and literally 4x as many people, if not more.



The point is it was not 9am. Nothing more, nothing less.

 If you don't like it you need to find a different place to ski. You had a nice run. It is not 1999.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 12, 2020)

x10003q said:


> If you don't like it* you need to find a different place to ski. You had a nice run. It is not 1999.*



I hope x10003q doesn't work in marketing!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2020)

I read that the Vail COO made a statement on the viral lift line photos.  

The gondola / base they made no excuse for.  Basically said historic snow = historic line.  But, the lines were gone by 10AM.

The long lines on the chair were apparently due to Back Bowl closures from Avalanche work.  Apparently they had staff positioned at the top of the runs leading to that chair saying it was gonna suck.  She said they did not communicate such enough and promised next time they will try harder to let people know how much it will suck. 

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 12, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I read that the Vail COO made a statement on the viral lift line photos.
> 
> *Basically said historic snow = historic line. *



Did he say what was "historic" about the snow?


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## skiur (Feb 12, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I read that the Vail COO made a statement on the viral lift line photos.
> 
> The gondola / base they made no excuse for.  Basically said historic snow = historic line.  But, the lines were gone by 10AM.
> 
> ...



http://blog.vail.com/a-lot-on-the-l...I9JPZAZ0siSAoT-7YYq6ZX0Ot-lkDh2SnGe8DjyKyhL9k


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## Zermatt (Feb 12, 2020)

Honestly, seems like a very reasonable response from the COO and glad they addressed it.

A bit surprised that 38" causes that much chaos in Colorado. That's a big storm in UT but nowhere near top 5.


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## drjeff (Feb 12, 2020)

billo said:


> Honestly, seems like a very reasonable response from the COO and glad they addressed it.
> 
> A bit surprised that 38" causes that much chaos in Colorado. That's a big storm in UT but nowhere near top 5.


I think the bigger issue Vail had with the storm wasn't the quantity of snow outright, but the quantity spread out over their HUGE acreage, especially in the back bowls.

If one has never seen the back bowls at Vail on a clear day, it's really tough to appreciate how vast that terrain is

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 12, 2020)

billo said:


> *A bit surprised that 38" causes that much chaos in Colorado. *
> That's a big storm in UT but nowhere near top 5.




I'm shocked 38" in just over 48 hours could possibly be #5 in the Colorado mountains.   I got 36" a few years ago in my NJ backyard in less time at the massive elevation of 400'.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm shocked 38" in just over 48 hours could possibly be #5 in the Colorado mountains.   I got 36" a few years ago in my NJ backyard in less time at the massive elevation of 400'.



Colorado some average same amount of snow as North Vermont
I learned that after my first trip to west coast


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## machski (Feb 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm shocked 38" in just over 48 hours could possibly be #5 in the Colorado mountains.   I got 36" a few years ago in my NJ backyard in less time at the massive elevation of 400'.


To put it in perspective BG, Copper is only up to  180 inches on the season.  I can believe that is a big snowfall from one storm for Colorado.  The other factor is that storm was not light, dry Rockies powder.  It was much more sense, felt more like Eastern powder (at least up at Steamboat).  Powder for sure, but not the airy pow you float through.  This stuff you had to work through it.

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## AdironRider (Feb 13, 2020)

Here we are with more apologizing for ski resort management incompetence. You guys must own Vail stock or something. This "historic crowds" argument is bull and I can't believe management is literally blaming the customer for the problem. For example: Jackson tried to blame crowding on historic snowfall, that wasn't even in the top 3 in the past decade in terms of total snow last year. Just this past January they had "the most snow ever between the dates of Jan 3rd and 11th". Are you kidding me? That is some arbitrary history. Not the most snow ever in a week, or the most in January, just the most between a specific 7 day period in January. That is thinly veiled customer bashing and it is unbelievable you guys are letting them get away with it. 

Ski resorts, if they are going to flood the place, should be able to manage crowding effectively. Anything else is pure incompetence. 

But I do agree that Colorado doesn't actually get that much snow. It just doesn't get the freeze / thaw cycles.


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## abc (Feb 13, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> The long lines on the chair were apparently due to Back Bowl closures from Avalanche work.  Apparently they had staff positioned at the top of the runs leading to that chair saying it was gonna suck.  She said they did not communicate such enough and promised next time they will try harder to let people know how much it will suck.


I remember some 20 years ago when I first visited Vail. One day, there's a lot of snow (it may have been one of their "historical" powder days in history too). I wasn't a powder skier back then (much harder on straight skis). But I had to try those famous powder! I did poorly and worse, somehow "accidentally" ended up on the bottom of the back bowl. Holy cow, the zoo of people waiting for the chair to go back to the front side!

I didn't time the wait right away. But it was a long one. After seemingly endless standing without the line getting any shorter, I started to time it. From that point on, it was 20 minutes. THAT, was the longest I ever waited in line up to that point. So it stuck in my mind. 

So much so I purposely avoid going to Vail for the next 5+ years! 

Due to THAT experience a couple decades ago, every time I go to Vail, I worry about the lines in the back bowl.


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## AdironRider (Feb 13, 2020)

abc said:


> So much so I purposely avoid going to Vail for the next 5+ years!



This is the real and fast approaching problem.


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## urungus (Feb 13, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> This is the real and fast approaching problem.



Nobody goes there.  It’s too crowded.

— Yogi Berra


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## drjeff (Feb 13, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Here we are with more apologizing for ski resort management incompetence. You guys must own Vail stock or something. This "historic crowds" argument is bull and I can't believe management is literally blaming the customer for the problem. For example: Jackson tried to blame crowding on historic snowfall, that wasn't even in the top 3 in the past decade in terms of total snow last year. Just this past January they had "the most snow ever between the dates of Jan 3rd and 11th". Are you kidding me? That is some arbitrary history. Not the most snow ever in a week, or the most in January, just the most between a specific 7 day period in January. That is thinly veiled customer bashing and it is unbelievable you guys are letting them get away with it.
> 
> Ski resorts, if they are going to flood the place, should be able to manage crowding effectively. Anything else is pure incompetence.
> 
> But I do agree that Colorado doesn't actually get that much snow. It just doesn't get the freeze / thaw cycles.



It will be interesting to see in the coming years, if the crowds stay increased, and the resorts are presumed doing well cash flow wise, there's a bunch of lifts all across ski country, both East and West, still in operation, that were built in the ski area terrain expansion boom of the mid/late 80's and into the early 90's, that are approaching 30-40 years of service, that may very well be looking at replacement in the coming years.  Will the choice be made to upgrade capacity, or potentially even re-think the placement of key lifts, especially ones that get people up and out of the base area and/or don't have any other option to ski out of once you get to the base of the lift, or will it be just a straight replacement, with some shiny new lift, that may run faster, but not necessarily carry any more people per hour? 

Many resorts will have the chance to in essence re-invent how they move guests up the hill in the coming years as some equipment nears the end of the functional service time


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2020)

skiur said:


> http://blog.vail.com/a-lot-on-the-l...I9JPZAZ0siSAoT-7YYq6ZX0Ot-lkDh2SnGe8DjyKyhL9k



Good on her for at least acknowledging the problem and for taking responsibility.  

And I have not posted in this thread, but many of you know how I feel on this one.  Ambivalent to be precise.  Awesome deal for consumers, but it is "too good to be true" and causing a lot of crowding problems.  

Once again, Alterra and its IKON pass partners are not accepting responsibility for the huge crowding mess they have created with the "too good to be true" IKON product and they are in denial or simply remain silent.  

AR pointed out JH's response to crowding last season, which as many of you saw, was the party-line position trotted out by Alterra and adopted by its partner resorts.  The "snow" was of course the reason.  :roll:  Second reason was of course their "passholders".  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.  

It is interesting how non-Alterra owned resorts are so quick to stick with the 'party-line' in the face of angry passholders and locals.  It is also interesting as to how these areas just can't help themselves from drinking the kool aid as to how this is somehow good for business.  Last year we all were puzzled as to how the partner resorts get compensated and why they would seemingly give up on the bigger bucks from passholders for peanuts from IKON.  Well, in thinking about it, I doubt that they are getting compensated $xx per day for each IKON pass, but are instead incentivized to get more skier days in the program such that at the end of the year the pie is divvied up to those based on their share of the total skier days as opposed to a flat fee per day.  In other words, the resort who has the most IKON pass days gets the largest share of the pie.  

There are now like 30 pages of posts here that I have not read, but perhaps someone has figured out the compensation scheme.


----------



## abc (Feb 13, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> This is the real and fast approaching problem.


Yep, very fast. 

Given the number of mountains that ski just as well but without the long lines (at the time), it was an easy solution. I stick with A-basin (and then Loveland) for the subsequent years. 

Eventually, I branched out into other region. (the high lodging price of Summit county sent me over to Utah and California... longer and slightly more expensive air fair notwithstanding) It isn't until I got a free place to stay that I returned to ski Colorado regularly.

Frankly, I don't care WHY it's crowded. I just try my best to avoid it. Skiing somewhere else is the obvious alternative. It's not like Vail is the only good mountain!


----------



## 1dog (Feb 13, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Good on her for at least acknowledging the problem and for taking responsibility.
> 
> And I have not posted in this thread, but many of you know how I feel on this one.  Ambivalent to be precise.  Awesome deal for consumers, but it is "too good to be true" and causing a lot of crowding problems.
> 
> ...



Does seem like the business model many service companies have adopted - basic drug dealer proposal that gives you the 1st hit free. ( Not that I'd know anything about that personally)

When mobile phone carriers gave the 'free' phone with a long term agreement - AT&T got $600 for each Apple product back in the day from Apple.

The grandaddy of them all is Amazon - selling everything at or below cost to grab customers - the studies from the MBA's showed that customers once make a habit X% stick regardless of rising costs. 

If you're interested in paradigm-changing business models, Scott Galloway from Stern School of Business has a great one - yes 3 years old, but may explain some of the thinking behind the consolidation of ski areas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWBjUsmO-Lw

Assuming each will get more - but not all - customers who try the resort because they have 7 days at each ( Ikon I think). Like airlines, the lifts are running anyway - sell $5 drinks and $15 burgers - and maybe the place becomes their favorite.

I'm selfishly sad because MRV is becoming crowded but hey, the price ( $800?) and the size of crowds won't last - free phones went away.

Everyone who expects more cap investment is correct I think but I don't expect it soon. Then there are the regulators and environmental hurdles. . . . .  

Growth for the 1st time in a long time for the industry - will they reinvest properly to hold customers? We will see. .


----------



## Zermatt (Feb 14, 2020)

1dog said:


> I'm selfishly sad because MRV is becoming crowded but hey, the price ( $800?) and the size of crowds won't last - free phones went away.



There were never really free phones.  All I remember is $200 iPhones and really expensive phone service with an embedded financing built into your monthly bill.

Now, I pay full price for my phones but I get to shop the cheapest/best phone service options available.  I remember paying upwards of $180 per month (with a discount) for two lines on AT&T with unlimited data.  Now I pay $160 all in for 5 lines of unlimited everything (ironically also includes 2 free iPhone 11s).

Not sure how this relate to skiing though.  I do know it would be hard to ever shell out $200 for a day pass.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2020)

1dog said:


> Does seem like the business model many service companies have adopted - basic drug dealer proposal that gives you the 1st hit free. ( Not that I'd know anything about that personally)



I can see how you would think that, but I seriously wonder about IKON.  Their justification is that they have to compete with Vail.  We'll see what happens in 2020-2021.  The optimist in me thinks that they will make changes.  The realist in me thinks that they won't do a damn thing because the money is too good.  



> The grandaddy of them all is Amazon - selling everything at or below cost to grab customers - the studies from the MBA's showed that customers once make a habit X% stick regardless of rising costs.



I think that the theory with Amazon is that they are more interested in your data as to what you buy instead of the actual business of selling stuff.  They want the traffic.  



> I'm selfishly sad because MRV is becoming crowded but hey, the price ( $800?) and the size of crowds won't last - free phones went away.



I hear you...



> Everyone who expects more cap investment is correct I think but I don't expect it soon. Then there are the regulators and environmental hurdles. . . . .
> 
> Growth for the 1st time in a long time for the industry - will they reinvest properly to hold customers? We will see. .



That used to be the case that folks wanted big improvements every season.  Les Otten promised that at SR.  Now, I don't think it is quite as much of a thing as opposed to being open and consistent.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 14, 2020)

Call me a realist, but I don't see Vail or Icon making many changes to reduce crowding.   It's kind of like Disney.  They don't care when people have to wait 90 minutes in line for Space Mountain as long as attendance remains up. 

With all of the bad press on over crowding this season, there hasn't seemed to be any reduction in the number of people willing to deal with it.  Will that change in the future?  I kinda doubt it.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## abc (Feb 14, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the theory with Amazon is that they are more interested in your data as to what you buy instead of the actual business of selling stuff.  They want the traffic.


That's correct. The data is worth a whole lot more than the profit from the books and grocery you buy through them.

At least with Amazon, you're basically subsidizing your purchase by selling your own personal data (not that you have much other alternatives). 

How people so willingly give up their personal data for far less is more sad. 

(Some of my work in the past dealt with data and the mining of it. So I know how valuable personal data really are. And yet we're so willingly give it away for next to nothing)


----------



## drjeff (Feb 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Call me a realist, but I don't see Vail or Icon making many changes to reduce crowding.   It's kind of like Disney.  They don't care when people have to wait 90 minutes in line for Space Mountain as long as attendance remains up.
> 
> With all of the bad press on over crowding this season, there hasn't seemed to be any reduction in the number of people willing to deal with it.  Will that change in the future?  I kinda doubt it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I tend to agree.

The only thing that I could see Vail doing potentially, is placing another resort or 2 on black out days over the Holiday periods with the Epic local pass

Ikon, well lets see if the presumed unlimited days with the top level pass for Sugarbush plays out as many think it will, other than that, they likely won't change much, if anything I would guess.

Until they see a fall off in pass sales, regardless of the level of the pass, I think the biggest change that you'll see from both EPIC and IKON is them maybe buying and/or partnering with additional resorts, rather than changing their pass access to what they currently have


----------



## abc (Feb 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Call me a realist, but I don't see Vail or Icon making many changes to reduce crowding.   It's kind of like Disney.  They don't care when people have to wait 90 minutes in line for Space Mountain as long as attendance remains up.


Ikon and Vail operate differently though. 

With Ikon, the partners can opt out if they perceive being part of Ikon is hurting them more than helping them. Next spring will be a watershed moment as most of the partners are locked in for 3 years initially. They don't have to renew the partnership if they don't want to.

With Vail, you're probably right. Basically, if your local hill is owned by Vail, you really don't have any alternative. Vail is your local Disney! There's only one Disney in the whole world!!!

But for those in locale with alternatives, it's up to the customer to decide whether they buy an Epic pass or a local pass. The local pass may not be any cheaper, though quite possibly less crowded.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Ikon and Vail operate differently though.
> 
> With Ikon, the partners can opt out if they perceive being part of Ikon is hurting them more than helping them. Next spring will be a watershed moment as most of the partners are locked in for 3 years initially. They don't have to renew the partnership if they don't want to.



Completely agree.  I am waiting to see what happens, but will not be surprised if not a damn thing changes.That said, I do know from someone "in the know" at Snowbird is that their season pass sales for 19-20 *were lower than last season* with the belief being that more people went to IKON.  So if these resorts are seeing lower pass sales, then they will sit up.  



> With Vail, you're probably right. Basically, if your local hill is owned by Vail, you really don't have any alternative. Vail is your local Disney! There's only one Disney in the whole world!!!
> 
> But for those in locale with alternatives, it's up to the customer to decide whether they buy an Epic pass or a local pass. The local pass may not be any cheaper, though quite possibly less crowded.



Exactly.  With only a handful of exceptions, those in EPIC are Vail properties.  Snowbasin and Sun Valley are independents who offer some days (IIRC Telluride is as well).  I am wondering if the Holdings are going to sell Snowbasin and Sun Valley soon.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2020)

Lots of social media posting by folks coast-to-coast at EPIC & IKON blackout spots saying yesterday "wasnt as bad as they'd thought" it would be.

Circumstantial Evidence piece #88,061


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 16, 2020)

My wife showed up to Pico extremely late yesterday... at least 11:00am and said it wasn't crowded at all.

I think between the cold and everyone expecting it to be really bad, a lot of folks stayed in yesterday instead.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Lots of social media posting by folks coast-to-coast at EPIC & IKON blackout spots saying yesterday "wasnt as bad as they'd thought" it would be.
> 
> Circumstantial Evidence piece #88,061



Alterra's response:  "The quiet day was not because of any blackouts on the IKON pass.  The reason for the quieter Saturday is clearly because folks are getting ready for the much-anticipated Daytona 500."


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## snoseek (Feb 16, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Alterra's response:  "The quiet day was not because of any blackouts on the IKON pass.  The reason for the quieter Saturday is clearly because folks are getting ready for the much-anticipated Daytona 500."



This is a joke right?


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## Edd (Feb 16, 2020)

Gunstock (again, not on any joint pass) was not mobbed yesterday when it was cold but big crowds today. 


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## bigbog (Feb 16, 2020)

snoseek said:


> This is a joke right?



Seek....and I thought the daily 98' Lynnway 500 commute was a roadrace....once rented a 4-cyl Corolla ~5yrs ago expecting accelleration of my 1973....:-o.   The increased desire for speed & racing:roll:  on the highways around us isn't just my aging judgement..


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 16, 2020)

^ 126 horsepower to the crank @ 6000 rpm... is your neck OK or still recovering from the whiplash?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2020)

With so many people now owning these megapasses, I wouldn't be surprised if it's true that holidays may ironically be less crowded, because the people who own them wont want to "pay" to ski.


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## snoseek (Feb 16, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> With so many people now owning these megapasses, I wouldn't be surprised if it's true that holidays may ironically be less crowded, because the people who own them wont want to "pay" to ski.



Alta was considerably less crowded on days the ikon base was blacked out last winter. Before that my experience working at kwood was the busiest days of the holiday weeks were the ones the tahoe value/local passes came off their blackouts. 

It probably is worth dropping the extra money on the more expensive pass with no blackouts if you can swing it imo.


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## asnowmobiler (Feb 16, 2020)

Today was fantastic at Elk, until it turned into this at 11:00.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2020)

So it wasn't really crowded this weekend, probably the best snow conditions of the season with many resorts 100% open?

Something really bizarre about that.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2020)

snoseek said:


> This is a joke right?



Yes. Hence the wink. 


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## catskillman (Feb 16, 2020)

Hunter was insane - I left at 10 - checked the webcam at 330 at the 6 pack line was as long as I had ever seen it.

Mid station was very very busy...

Heard they pre sold 9,000 tickets, Sold!   ++ passholders, vouchers etc.....

When is enough enough???


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2020)

catskillman said:


> *Hunter was insane *........ *the 6 pack line was as long as I had ever seen it.* Mid station was very very busy...



*NOTE:* Hunter Mountain is EPIC holiday non-restricted

Circumstantial Evidence piece #88,062


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## medfordmike (Feb 16, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> My wife showed up to Pico extremely late yesterday... at least 11:00am and said it wasn't crowded at all.
> 
> I think between the cold and everyone expecting it to be really bad, a lot of folks stayed in yesterday instead.



Pico was interesting yesterday.  Having all terrain open and all lifts running made it feel like a normal Saturday. I think the cold really made a difference. Coverage was great but lines were short. If you left the groomers you were basically all by yourself until you went to the lodge. Overall if you could tolerate the cold it was a great day on the mountain.  Good coverage and sun.  Cold as fuck to start but I can manage that.


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## kingslug (Feb 16, 2020)

Stowe was totaly uncrowded..never more than 10 minute wait..blackout killed the crowds


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *Stowe was totaly uncrowded*..never more than 10 minute wait..*blackout killed the crowds*



On a holiday Saturday, with blue skies, and perfect conditions.


Of course, according to ski area CEOs, COOs, GMs, and marketing teams, this just means "locals" and "season passholders" didn't show up.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a holiday Saturday, with blue skies, and perfect conditions.
> 
> 
> Of course, according to ski area CEOs, COOs, GMs, and marketing teams, this just means "locals" and "season passholders" didn't show up.



They were watching the Daytona 500 lol.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 16, 2020)

JimG. said:


> They were watching the Daytona 500 lol.



No it's lies
Great white lines of beatification of the whole North East for everyone finally 
I believe what I seeing to quote my friend


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## ss20 (Feb 16, 2020)

JimG. said:


> They were watching the Daytona 500 lol.



All 21 rain-shortened laps of it...

I'm a NASCAR fan.  And a skier.  About as much of a cross-over between those into both extreme parkour and opera.


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## Scruffy (Feb 16, 2020)

Plattekill today was as croweded as I've ever seen it--in the lodge--but the lift lines were nonexistent and slopes were uncrowded.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 16, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Plattekill today was as croweded as I've ever seen it--in the lodge--but the lift lines were nonexistent and slopes were uncrowded.



I very happy to have independent place in Catskills 
I hope that they survive the mega resorts vs independent hills


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 16, 2020)

we ditched the cottonwoods for the blackout days and headed north to powder mountain. they cap their day ticket sales at 1500 and have 8000+ acres of terrain. today was a 10" storm skiing powder day. we waited on zero lines and skied fresh tracks all over teh mountain every run. not the steepest place (not even close), but wow was that fun on a powder day. at a motel near the airport now waiting for my flight out at 12. awesome trip (deer valley>snowbird>alta>alta>snowbird>brighton>solitude>powmow>powmow)


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## skiur (Feb 17, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> How was conditions of Plaaty and pictures



Please ask these questions in the thread designated for it.  This thread is for discussion of superpasses, not plaaty.


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## Cornhead (Feb 17, 2020)

skiur said:


> Please ask these questions in the thread designated for it.  This thread is for discussion of superpasses, not plaaty.


Touche 

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Feb 17, 2020)

Remarkably light crowd at Snowbird yesterday 2/16/20, esp for a holiday weekend Sunday with 9" new snow.  They tell me it was due to being an Ikon blackout day??  It was ski-on for many lifts for much of the day.  I had a one car wait for the tram at 2pm.  
Today 2//17 the LCC access road is closed until further notice due to a natural avalanche that hit the road at 3AM.  The avi mitigation work they do to keep that canyon safe ain't no joke.
I might try to go up later.  Today is not a blackout day and I'm curious to see if it is mobbed like a normal powder weekend day.


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## kingslug (Feb 17, 2020)

No crowds at Sb and Stowe..today a little more crowded at Stowe but no big deal...good 3 days


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## catskillman (Feb 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> *NOTE:* Hunter Mountain is EPIC holiday non-restricted
> 
> Circumstantial Evidence piece #88,062




Interesting.  That may explain some things  

I am going to copy a trip report that I received onto the trip forumn.  

Hunter tried to eliminate some of the parking issue by sending an email saying if you park in the north lot this weekend you get a free tshirt.  Well - the emails go to mainly passholders, who have lockers at the main lodge.  The parking lot was empty needless to say.  There is no base lodge there so you would have to change in your car in the cold........  
  Once again.....


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2020)

While at Ellen yesterday people that had been over at Lincoln said it was very crowded. Ellen only was crowded 10:30 until 12:30 while the summit quad was down.


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## AdironRider (Feb 17, 2020)

Jackson status update after a blackout holiday weekend: 

Literally less than half the crowds. 5 tram waits were 2 tram waits. Half time thunder lifts. 

Ikon is the entire problem. We had just as much pow, if not more this weekend than last and it was a holiday and less than half the people showed up.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Jackson status update after a blackout holiday weekend:
> 
> Literally less than half the crowds. 5 tram waits were 2 tram waits. Half time thunder lifts.
> 
> Ikon is the entire problem. We had just as much pow, if not more this weekend than last and it was a holiday and less than half the people showed up.



As said, Alterra disagrees.  The reason for the smaller turnout was clearly because people are very excited about the Presidential primaries and are out campaigning for their candidates.  The fact that IKON pass was blacked out is not the reason.  You all should love IKON passholders.  Stop being so mean to them.  IKON makes skiing so affordable.  

:lol:


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## machski (Feb 17, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Jackson status update after a blackout holiday weekend:
> 
> Literally less than half the crowds. 5 tram waits were 2 tram waits. Half time thunder lifts.
> 
> Ikon is the entire problem. We had just as much pow, if not more this weekend than last and it was a holiday and less than half the people showed up.


Does Jackson sell blackout season passes?

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## machski (Feb 17, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> As said, Alterra disagrees.  The reason for the smaller turnout was clearly because people are very excited about the Presidential primaries and are out campaigning for their candidates.  The fact that IKON pass was blacked out is not the reason.  You all should love IKON passholders.  Stop being so mean to them.  IKON makes skiing so affordable.
> 
> [emoji38]


Trailboss, I'll ask the same of you.  Does Snowbird and /or Alta sell Blackout season passes?

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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2020)

machski said:


> Trailboss, I'll ask the same of you.  Does Snowbird and /or Alta sell Blackout season passes?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Just Midweek or Full.  

And again for 19-20, Snowbird pass sales were down.  


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## machski (Feb 17, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Just Midweek or Full.
> 
> And again for 19-20, Snowbird pass sales were down.
> 
> ...


Is that tracked separate from the Alta/Bird combo and is that offered with multiple tiers?

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## ScottySkis (Feb 17, 2020)

skiur said:


> Please ask these questions in the thread designated for it.  This thread is for discussion of superpasses, not plaaty.



Very true
Sorry about that


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *we ditched the cottonwoods for the blackout days*





jimk said:


> *Remarkably light crowd at Snowbird yesterday 2/16/20, esp for a holiday weekend Sunday with 9" new snow.  They tell me it was due to being an Ikon blackout day??  It was ski-on *






AdironRider said:


> Jackson status update after a *blackout holiday weekend: *
> 
> *Literally less than half the crowds. *5 tram waits were 2 tram waits.





Circumstantial Evidence pieces #88,062, #88,063, and #88,064.

But please, do tell me about it being a great snow year & local season passholders skiing more.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 17, 2020)

Epic / IKON = Oroboros


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## icecoast1 (Feb 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Circumstantial Evidence pieces #88,062, #88,063, and #88,064.
> 
> But please, do tell me about it being a great snow year & local season passholders skiing more.





The factual evidence you seem to be waiting for will never happen, ski resorts don't publicly release daily skier visit counts and Vail and Alterra are never going to release any data that shows their passes may be contributing to crowding.


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## AdironRider (Feb 17, 2020)

machski said:


> Does Jackson sell blackout season passes?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Jackson did just recently start selling passes with blackout dates for holidays. It was only 170 cheaper on a 1470 pass so not worth it IMO

Here is the pass structure and our early season pricing:

https://www.jacksonhole.com/latest-news-detail-X7QM4L.html

Current pricing:

https://www.jacksonhole.com/season-pass.html


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## kingslug (Feb 17, 2020)

Today at Stowe was the most crowded..no blackouts. Still manageable...


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## 1dog (Feb 17, 2020)

There were no crowds at Lincoln Peak - in my view a normal or even less than a normal Sat. Skied from 9- 3:30 20 people in front of me at Castlerock at 2:15.

Few 5 min lines at Heavens Gate, 4-5 mins at both Valley House ( running slower than normal) and Super Bravo. North Lynx ski on or 4-5 mins.

If you compared MLK or even the week after - there is no comparison - and I did see Ikon passes hanging from jackets.

Everyone says this is the week they announce new pass prices and tiers - well, I expect to pay more than $800 or $850, but at even 10 days how can anyone debate the value of an $80 per day cost - for me 20 gives me $40 days. 

Trick at Sugarbush will be families - how are they affected?


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## machski (Feb 17, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Jackson did just recently start selling passes with blackout dates for holidays. It was only 170 cheaper on a 1470 pass so not worth it IMO
> 
> Here is the pass structure and our early season pricing:
> 
> ...


I would agree with you on the differential.  But everyone has a different level they want to spend.  I would tend to think that wouldn't be a big number of passes but who knows.  Doubt we'd ever see the data.

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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2020)

I never pay 80 a day for a ticket in the East.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *Today at Stowe was the most crowded..no blackouts.*



This is NOT normal.  

 PDW Monday should never be by far the most crowded of the 4 days of the long holiday weekend.  Outside of weather related travel interruptions or terrible weather, the normal pecking order should generally be:  1) Saturday 2) Sunday 3) Friday 4) Monday.  

Circumstantial Evidence piece #88,065.


----------



## thebigo (Feb 17, 2020)

Today was day 45 for us between the three nh former peaks mtns. This year is undoubtedly more crowded than past years at all three. Crotched is the most noticeable, they stopped selling tickets again sunday afternoon, cops lined rte 47 with signs warning parked cars would be towed. Wildcat today felt crowded in the lodge but the hill felt normal for a holiday weekend, then again I was skiing stuff the average weekend skier wouldn't consider. Other observation is that wildcat was always known for the overall quality of skier, seeing all kinds of new shit at the nh properties this year: dude straightlining Pluto's on sunday with Jean's no hat or goggles and a lit cigarette in mouth, people who have never seen an angle load lift, dude on snowboard plowing through a group of race kids at top of lift, teenage girl going around the bull wheel and back down the quad, an unprecedented number of people that simply cannot load a lift, people sliding down natural terrain on their ass with rental skis in hand - never saw this kind of stuff in nh.


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Today was day 45 for us between the three nh former peaks mtns. This year is undoubtedly more crowded than past years at all three. Crotched is the most noticeable, they stopped selling tickets again sunday afternoon, cops lined rte 47 with signs warning parked cars would be towed. Wildcat today felt crowded in the lodge but the hill felt normal for a holiday weekend, then again I was skiing stuff the average weekend skier wouldn't consider. Other observation is that wildcat was always known for the overall quality of skier, seeing all kinds of new shit at the nh properties this year: dude straightlining Pluto's on sunday with Jean's no hat or goggles and a lit cigarette in mouth, people who have never seen an angle load lift, dude on snowboard plowing through a group of race kids at top of lift, teenage girl going around the bull wheel and back down the quad, an unprecedented number of people that simply cannot load a lift, people sliding down natural terrain on their ass with rental skis in hand - never saw this kind of stuff in nh.



Sounds like the Crotch


----------



## jimk (Feb 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Circumstantial Evidence pieces #88,062, #88,063, and #88,064.
> 
> But please, do tell me about it being a great snow year & local season passholders skiing more.



Purely anecdotal, but it's my sense that there are a great many SLC locals holding limited IKON passes and that's why crowds were low at both Alta and Snowbird on the blackout dates of Feb 15 and 16, 2020.  I believe there are also SLC locals to a lesser degree that hold Epic Local passes.  I skied Park City today 2/17 and it was not too bad, but today the blackout was lifted.  Various chairlift riders told me the previous two days were medium busy, not holiday weekend busy.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2020)

jimk said:


> it's my sense that* there are a great many SLC locals holding limited IKON passes and that's why crowds were low at both Alta and Snowbird on the blackout dates of Feb 15 and 16*, 2020.



Makes perfect sense. 

 If you're a Utah local & can ski LCC 200 days per year, why not pay less money & avoid the "hoards" from Texas & points east of the Mississippi on what you believe will be some of the most crowded days of the entire year.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2020)

jimk said:


> Purely anecdotal, but it's my sense that there are a great many SLC locals holding limited IKON passes and that's why crowds were low at both Alta and Snowbird on the blackout dates of Feb 15 and 16, 2020.  I believe there are also SLC locals to a lesser degree that hold Epic Local passes.  I skied Park City today 2/17 and it was not too bad, but today the blackout was lifted.  Various chairlift riders told me the previous two days were medium busy, not holiday weekend busy.



Exactly


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2020)

machski said:


> Is that tracked separate from the Alta/Bird combo and is that offered with multiple tiers?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes. Alta/Bird is a separate season pass and only offered full season. There is no midweek version of that.  

From what I saw won Christmas, more folks skied at Alta than the ‘bird with their IKON passes.


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## jimk (Feb 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> If you're a Utah local & can ski LCC 200 days per year, why not pay less money & avoid the "hoards" from Texas & points east of the Mississippi on what you believe will be some of the most crowded days of the entire year.



Yes, but the irony is that the most crowded days of the entire year are now becoming days that are good for crowd avoidance:grin:
Again anecdotally, I've heard from friends that ski Tahoe that the Christmas Holidays at places like Squaw and Alpine Meadows were not too crowded due possibly to same pass blackout factor.
I don't think you should see too many signs around SLC saying "IKONers go away", because the IKONers seem to be mostly locals now:grin:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2020)

jimk said:


> Yes, but the irony is that the most crowded days of the entire year are now becoming days that are good for crowd avoidance:grin:
> Again anecdotally, I've heard from friends that ski Tahoe that the Christmas Holidays at places like Squaw and Alpine Meadows were not too crowded due possibly to same pass blackout factor.
> I don't think you should see too many signs around SLC saying "IKONers go away", because the IKONers seem to be mostly locals now:grin:



Well, in all honesty, it is a lot of local resort passholders who are upset at IKON and essentially other locals.  I seem to notice the most friction being at Deer Valley, Alta, and to some extent Solitude (mainly because it went from a sleepy locals place to the hub of IKON).


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2020)

my experience in utah this week aligns with this ("most" ikon holders are utahahns). the only day we experienced crowding was the first sunday of our trip (2/9). this was the first full day of snowbird being open after the 50 hour interlodge, it was sunny and warm, and they were set to drop ropes all over the hill. it was madness. and almost every person we encountered was a local. the rest of the week was quiet and the crowd mostly seemed to be the week-long vacation tourists that have always keep these places humming along midweek. the crush is on the weekends when a major metropolitan city all show up to ski the cottonwoods.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my experience in utah this week aligns with this ("most" ikon holders are utahahns). the only day we experienced crowding was the first sunday of our trip (2/9). this was the first full day of snowbird being open after the 50 hour interlodge, it was sunny and warm, and they were set to drop ropes all over the hill. it was madness. and almost every person we encountered was a local. the rest of the week was quiet and the crowd mostly seemed to be the week-long vacation tourists that have always keep these places humming along midweek. the crush is on the weekends when a major metropolitan city all show up to ski the cottonwoods.



Correct.  Again, the rub is not that folks are coming out to visit from out-of-the-area and causing the crowding, but that locals are either leaving their traditional one-resort season pass for IKON or are buying the base pass when they would not otherwise have a pass.  The intent of the program is to encourage people to travel and visit other areas, but when five are right beside a metro area there is a problem.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 19, 2020)

was definitely extreme enough that it caused me to swear off ikon utah if i'm looking for a long weekend trip. not worth the shitshow. for the weeklong trip it was perfect, but i'm glad i discovered powmow for the blackout dates and wild weekends. money well spent up there. deer valley was also a solid choice for our first saturday (LCC closed, BCC full, DV was fine - sold out, but fine).


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## machski (Feb 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> If you're a Utah local & can ski LCC 200 days per year, why not pay less money & avoid the "hoards" from Texas & points east of the Mississippi on what you believe will be some of the most crowded days of the entire year.


But BG, with an Ikon Base you cannot ski LCC 200 days per year, you can ski it only 5.

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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2020)

machski said:


> But BG, with an Ikon Base you cannot ski LCC 200 days per year, you can ski it only 5.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Snowbird’s President and GM spoke about canyon transportation issues Wednesday night in SLC.  Last year, 16% of their total skier days were IKON passes.  He confirmed that Snowbird Season Pass sales are down this year.  He also said that this season on average 20-30% of their daily visitors are IKON passholders. 


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## Scruffy (Feb 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Snowbird’s President and GM spoke about canyon transportation issues Wednesday night in SLC.  Last year, 16% of their total skier days were IKON passes.  He confirmed that Snowbird Season Pass sales are down this year.  He also said that this season on average 20-30% of their daily visitors are IKON passholders.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I'd be interesting to see if they stick with IKON.


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## Zermatt (Feb 23, 2020)

I wonder at what point the Cottonwood Canyons could support European style mass transit to the ski areas (light rail from the valley, aerial trams, etc). My guess is they aren't even close.


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## kingslug (Feb 23, 2020)

Not even close...would take years..and a ton of money..


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## machski (Feb 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Snowbird’s President and GM spoke about canyon transportation issues Wednesday night in SLC.  Last year, 16% of their total skier days were IKON passes.  He confirmed that Snowbird Season Pass sales are down this year.  He also said that this season on average 20-30% of their daily visitors are IKON passholders.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


If this is true, then the entire SLC valley must be switching to Ikon passes.  It's the only explanation that fits given LCC has 7 days MAX access on the Ikon.  I will say this, if I lived in SLC, I'd have a full Bird-Alta pass because 7 days would not be enough for me.

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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2020)

machski said:


> If this is true, then the entire SLC valley must be switching to Ikon passes.  It's the only explanation that fits given LCC has 7 days MAX access on the Ikon.  I will say this, if I lived in SLC, I'd have a full Bird-Alta pass because 7 days would not be enough for me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


I probably would too, but can't you get both and Epic local and an Ikon pass for near the same money as a full Alta / Bird?  Maybe a lot of people are doing that.  

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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2020)

machski said:


> If this is true, then the entire SLC valley must be switching to Ikon passes.  It's the only explanation that fits given LCC has 7 days MAX access on the Ikon.  I will say this, if I lived in SLC, I'd have a full Bird-Alta pass because 7 days would not be enough for me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



That’s exactly what is going on.

And if nothing changes, I’m seriously considering dumping my Alta/Bird Pass. The traffic is just too crazy now.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2020)

machski said:


> If this is true, then the entire SLC valley must be switching to Ikon passes.  It's the only explanation that fits given LCC has 7 days MAX access on the Ikon.  I will say this, if I lived in SLC, I'd have a full Bird-Alta pass because 7 days would not be enough for me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



And for the average person, 7 days is plenty.  


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## asnowmobiler (Feb 23, 2020)




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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> View attachment 26373



It hasn’t snowed in six days. No big events up here. Skiing is ok but not great.  But the place is overwhelmed. And coincidentally this is the FIRST weekend after a blackout for IKON.  Seems pretty clear to me what is at least part of the problem.....


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## ScottySkis (Feb 23, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> It hasn’t snowed in six days. No big events up here. Skiing is ok but not great.  But the place is overwhelmed. And coincidentally this is the FIRST weekend after a blackout for IKON.  Seems pretty clear to me what is at least part of the problem.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Sad
I guess SlC that I visited a few times last decade is not the same now


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## camberstick (Feb 23, 2020)

No,  the SLC  I remember  is dead it sounds. The big resorts  aren't worth the hassle any more with the way things are going.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2020)

camberstick said:


> No,  the SLC  I remember  is dead it sounds. The big resorts  aren't worth the hassle any more with the way things are going.



We've been out here now nine years.  There has been a gradual uptick in traffic, but the last two years or so it is really congested.  The economy is hot.  

As to BCC and LCC, for the first four years or so there was only a problem when the road was closed for avi work and/or there was fresh snow and/or it was a holiday.  Then it crept up to a few days here and there....but same pattern...new snow, holiday, and /or closure.  Now it has gotten to the point where every weekend is a mess.  Today as I mentioned it was 55 F and sunny in the valley with no new snow and pretty marginal conditions in need of a refresh.  But LCC closed at 11am due to traffic and our drive up was slow.  Again, first weekend after an IKON blackout.  

I really wish that Alterra would take some accountability for the mess they have made.  Instead it is spin.  They brag that they have "saved" skiing and made it affordable.  This is not what anyone wanted.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 23, 2020)

Why would they take any accountability? They are printing money like it's toilet paper. Wait for the price increases...


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## abc (Feb 23, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Why would they take any accountability? They are printing money like it's toilet paper. Wait for the price increases...


I don’t see any price increases coming. 

Revenue = price x volume. As long as volume is increasing, there’ll be no price increase. It’ll take a few more years for volume to plateau. Still amazing number of people haven’t heard of Ikon. 

But I’ll be curious whether Jackson will remain on Ikon after 2021.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2020)

abc said:


> I don’t see any price increases coming.
> 
> But I’ll be curious whether Jackson will remain on Ikon after 2021.



Same with Alta/Bird


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## drjeff (Feb 24, 2020)

abc said:


> I don’t see any price increases coming.
> 
> Revenue = price x volume. As long as volume is increasing, there’ll be no price increase. It’ll take a few more years for volume to plateau. Still amazing number of people haven’t heard of Ikon.
> 
> But I’ll be curious whether Jackson will remain on Ikon after 2021.


Not sure if a large price increase will happen, but even a small one, when they're selling around a supposed 500k+ IKON's or  roughly 1000000 EPIC's a year currently starts becoming a decent amount of added revenue per year for them, without seeming like it's a major increase to the consumer 

Do I expect to see in the not too distant future that next seasons IKON and EPIC passes have gone up in price say $100? Nope. 

Would I be surprised to see that they went up between $25 and $50? Nope

Would a $25 to $50 increase likely cause a sizable drop in their sales over this year? Probably not

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## Scruffy (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> We've been out here now nine years.  There has been a gradual uptick in traffic, but the last two years or so it is really congested.  The economy is hot.
> 
> As to BCC and LCC, for the first four years or so there was only a problem when the road was closed for avi work and/or there was fresh snow and/or it was a holiday.  Then it crept up to a few days here and there....but same pattern...new snow, holiday, and /or closure.  Now it has gotten to the point where every weekend is a mess.  Today as I mentioned it was 55 F and sunny in the valley with no new snow and pretty marginal conditions in need of a refresh.  But LCC closed at 11am due to traffic and our drive up was slow.  Again, first weekend after an IKON blackout.
> 
> I really wish that Alterra would take some accountability for the mess they have made.  Instead it is spin.  They brag that they have "saved" skiing and made it affordable.  This is not what anyone wanted.



Understand your angst, but, as you know, Alterra doesn't own Alta/Bird, they're only a "partner" resort. Alta/Bird owns some of that accountability for the mess in LCC, and Alta/Bird can drop out of IKON, raise their pass rates and restore order to LCC. The question is, will they?


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## 1dog (Feb 24, 2020)

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone[/QUOTE]



Scruffy said:


> Understand your angst, but, as you know, Alterra doesn't own Alta/Bird, they're only a "partner" resort. Alta/Bird owns some of that accountability for the mess in LCC, and Alta/Bird can drop out of IKON, raise their pass rates and restore order to LCC. The question is, will they?




If some of these areas have seen a large increase in food service, and how could they not - that is where the margins are in a very thin/slim margin business, I can't see any of them dropping out of the 'club'.

Even I spend more $$ in cafeteria now. I was one of a lot of people who bagged everything including water, never spent a dime in the over-priced, generally lower quality food offerings. I ate on the lift half the time.

Maybe because I'm older, more confident in the economy, quality has gone up, or I am done with my water freezing, whatever the reasons, all in my ski house spend more than the  past 20 years.

I do wonder if they have ( on National Forest Land anyway) flexibility to open earlier- say 7 on non-avi control mornings?

Pendulum always swings a liitle too far. Keep hearing prices coming out soon for next year but nothing so far.

I read this site: https://www.zrankings.com/ski-resorts/season-passes


Even though a couple of spread sheets are mis-aligned - I can't see how that PAF number works.


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## mbedle (Feb 24, 2020)

I know this has been discussed multiple times and I am pretty sure that the general consensus was that companies with multiple resorts passes, the majority of their revenue  was generated by pass sales. I was just reading the Vail 2019 investors' conference presentation and they actually generated in 2018 almost half of their revenue (I am assuming this is only revenue associated with pass/ticket sales) from lift ticket sales. I find that really hard to believe.


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## 1dog (Feb 24, 2020)

And. . .  .most of it is in Spring prior to the season - regardless of snow conditions. . . .  a huge plus.


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## AdironRider (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> It hasn’t snowed in six days. No big events up here. Skiing is ok but not great.  But the place is overwhelmed. And coincidentally this is the FIRST weekend after a blackout for IKON.  Seems pretty clear to me what is at least part of the problem.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Double the people and completely full, turn around you can't park here conditions on Saturday, with no new snow in a week and it was 0 degrees out here in Jackson. 

You had to wait in a multiple buss line just to get from the parking lot to the lift. Insane.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> And if nothing changes, *I’m seriously considering dumping my Alta/Bird Pass. The traffic is just too crazy* now.



Where will you ski?



thetrailboss said:


> *It hasn’t snowed in six days. No big events up here. Skiing is ok but not great.  But the place is overwhelmed. And coincidentally this is the FIRST weekend after a blackout for IKON.*  Seems pretty clear to me what is at least part of the problem.....



The ski resort CEOs, GMs, COOs, and marketing folks will need to put in some serious OT to spin this.   Realistically, I believe that in the postmortem of the 2019-2020 ski season, you're going to see some management "break from the ranks" and simply admit that IKON & EPIC lead to crowding.  I dont think they can hold the "great snow" & "locals are skiing more" BS together much longer.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Why would they take any accountability? They are printing money like it's toilet paper. Wait for the price increases...



Unfortunately you are correct.  I am being overly idealistic.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

Scruffy said:


> Understand your angst, but, as you know, Alterra doesn't own Alta/Bird, they're only a "partner" resort. Alta/Bird owns some of that accountability for the mess in LCC, and Alta/Bird can drop out of IKON, raise their pass rates and restore order to LCC. The question is, will they?



That is true, but the bigger thing that me and others have been saying, is that Alterra last year was creating "alternative facts" that partner resorts were all saying.  Big Sky, Aspen, Jackson Hole, and at least Alta were all using the same, "gosh, the snow is so good" and "the crowding is because of season passholders skiing" lines instead of admitting that yes, IKON was driving traffic.  Big Sky, Jackson, and Alta were also imploring locals to "love the IKON passholders".  What is disingenuous is that Alterra did a good job of diverting the anger directed towards it and the partner resorts to the skiers and riders who had the passes.  

The other piece is that for every news article covering this "newfound crowding problem" that "all of the sudden" sprung up in 2018-2020 shows a clear pattern of what connects the resorts.  Ski areas mentioned and discussed:  Alta/Snowbird, Brighton, Solitude, Deer Valley, Jackson Hole Aspen-Snowmass, Vail, and Crystal Mountain.  With the exception of Vail, the other resorts are ALL on the IKON Pass.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is a big part of the problem.  

And what you said got me thinking with regards to LCC:  Alta/Snowbird share that IKON revenue.  So, theoretically, the return for Snowbird is not nearly as good as it may seem.  Same with Alta.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

1dog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
> 
> If some of these areas have seen a large increase in food service, and how could they not - that is where the margins are in a very thin/slim margin business, I can't see any of them dropping out of the 'club'.



That is the conventional wisdom.  And the traditional business reasoning.  You lose $$$ in the ticket sales, but you make it up in food/bev sales and souvenir sales.  Guess what?  That isn't happening.  A good friend of mine worked in food and bev at Snowbird.  Their numbers are down.  One reason is that Utah has a new .05 BAC that has scared the hell out of visitors who are visiting and are not doing apres ski.  The other reason though is that more locals have IKON passes instead of season passes or no pass.  Those folks are on a budget and are brownbagging, not buying alcohol (either due to religion or the aforementioned BAC law), and not buying lessons or souvenirs.  So they end up making less $$$ and have the issue of crowding.  

Now Snowbird has remained silent during this IKON pass debacle.  They have sent us lots of surveys and have not trotted out the Alterra line about why there is crowding.  Dave Fields was asked last week about IKON and he did not directly answer the question.  He said it is being "evaluated" but he did admit that things are broken in terms of traffic, that Snowbird pass sales (and revenue) are down, and that although they are "taking a hard look" at paid parking, that will not happen in 2020-2021 and if it does it will be part of a "holistic approach" that includes other stakeholders.  That last part was a dig at Alterra and what they did with Solitude by announcing last fall that they were doing paid parking well after pass sales were done and without warning to other areas.  

I certainly do hope that Snowbird would either, (a) dump IKON, or (b) cut it back so that folks only come up non-holiday midweek.  

Knowing John Cummings and his track record of incredibly dumb business decisions, I think that they will increase Snowbird pass prices and bend over to keep IKON thus making more people angry.  :roll:

Sorry to IKON passholders here.  I don't mean any offense to you--the deal IS GOOD for consumers but it is too good to be true.  In essence what Alterra has done is to try to take out its competition by bringing them into this program, but they are insidiously taking away business from resorts due to a loss of season pass sales.  As I said a few months ago, are traditional season pass sales going to end?  They are down at Snowbird due to IKON.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Double the people and completely full, turn around you can't park here conditions on Saturday, with no new snow in a week and it was 0 degrees out here in Jackson.
> 
> You had to wait in a multiple buss line just to get from the parking lot to the lift. Insane.



Same thing.  The weekend after an IKON blackout.  Amazing coincidence.  :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Where will you ski?



Well, when you consider the amount we spend on my Alta/Bird Pass and one for my daughter, her ski camp, and my wife's pass (this year she got IKON, which made me :roll: ), we do have some options in terms of budget.  

LCC is just a mess.  The traffic and crowding make it so that we do not get our ROI on our programs.  The traffic also makes it so that I am :angry: before I even arrive at the parking lot and it ruins the day.  

There are other drivers to this thought process too.  First, the consequences of a hot economy and an incredibly dumb business decision two seasons ago by Snowbird ownership to cut pay and benefits to staff have come to roost this season.  Our staple ski camp program for my daughter has been a complete failure this season.  In six Sundays she has had four different instructors who are either too old to give a shit or not at all motivated to actually teach.  The chaos has made my daughter understandably anxious and upset.  On Saturday night she was in tears about going Sunday because she was scared of getting hurt.  We've been in the program five seasons and this is the first where I have now had to ride the ass of the manager to get this right.  Before this season I had no idea who that person even was.  He is trying, but I know that a lot of their good instructors left and he is in a bad spot.  That said, we invested too much to have her now in a spot where she is behind her skillset last season and where she doesn't even want to go to Snowbird.  And to put it in perspective, the cost of the 10-weeks is about the same as my Alta/Bird pass.  

The second issue is that my wife had an accident at Snowbird now seven years ago and the memory prevents her from skiing there.  So we have to accommodate her.  

Another factor is that literally three of our closest families have up and moved for various reasons.  Two of them are in Montana now (hence, the Ski Discovery visits on my tally this season).  They want us to buy passes to Discovery and commit to coming up every major holiday.  

It is too soon to say what I will do, but it may be a hodgepodge of tickets or other passes.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2020)

1dog said:


> If some of these areas have seen a large increase in food service, and how could they not - that is where the margins are in a very thin/slim margin business, I can't see any of them dropping out of the 'club'.
> 
> .



Is this opinion based off seeing $12 cheeseburgers and $5 candy bars in ski resort cafeterias or actually looking at resort P&L statements?

I used to be accountable for updating the F&B portions of the P&L at two ski resorts, Snowshoe WV (large destination resort managed by Intrawest at the time) and Wisp, MD (primarily a day trip area).

Both had ski, golf, lodging and multiple F&B outlets.  I can tell you for both that the order of profitability was:

Lift tickets / Pass Sales
Ski school operations
Golf Operations
Lodging operations
F&B

Over the course of the year, F&B was lucky to break even or eek out a small profit.  That was the case for all of the other Intrawest resorts at the time too; even Whistler.  Also knew the VP of F&B at Vail at the time (early 2000s) and his profit scenario was the same. 




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## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> It is too soon to say what I will do, but it may be a hodgepodge of tickets or other passes.



Wow.  I'm very sorry to hear all this; especially the bit about your little girl which is heart-wrenching.  Hopefully it all works out somehow.


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## kingslug (Feb 24, 2020)

Glad i at least spent the last 20 years skiing LCC before it turned into a shit show..basing out of PC is our plan now...midweek trip to LCC...and keep flying around to different places...although this Corona virus might keep me away from Europe for a while.
Sad.


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## jaytrem (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Another factor is that literally three of our closest families have up and moved for various reasons.  Two of them are in Montana now (hence, the Ski Discovery visits on my tally this season).  They want us to buy passes to Discovery and commit to coming up every major holiday.



Mmmmmmm, Discovery!

That's quite a haul though.

Better be careful with the kid.  Would suck if she ends up hating skiing.  Maybe cut your losses and ski with her for the rest of the season.  All fun, no stress. That's pretty much what I do with my kids.  It does help that they're twins, so always have same age company.


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## JimG. (Feb 24, 2020)

Soon there won't be season passes available to specific mountains. You will have to buy a megapass to ski anywhere.

The last time I got into this thread I mentioned realtors must be sweating and got called out by people for it. What the hell am I talking about? Well I was planning on buying a ski home in NE but now I'm pondering why I would even bother. If I have to buy a megapass to ski I'll obviously have a choice of places to ski. And if I can't have a home hill and season pass there, why would I commit to living in the area. That just becomes a financial burden I'm better off without so I can afford lodging and airfare to far flung locations.

Get it now?


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## jimk (Feb 24, 2020)

I was up at Snowbird all day on Saturday, Feb 22 and actually found it to be fairly manageable crowd-wise.  It took about 45 mins to do what optimally can be a 15-20 min drive up the LCC.  But once there, lines were not too bad.  Spent time in Mineral Basin, Gad 2, Little Cloud etc. Restored my faith that weekends can still be fun.
I am up in Jackson, WY now.  Did not ski today 2/24, but saw similar slowdowns as LCC to get from town to JH ski area.  Big backup tonight for return to town due to an accident.  Pretty big liftlines in AM I heard, but got better later.  I will by skiing there tomorrow.  I think IKON has made a big difference increasing crowds throughout the season at JH.

I have about ten days at four different Vail Resorts this year and they have not been too crazy.  I heard an employee at Breckenridge tell me that IKON is the best thing that happened to his resort - with respect to lowering bad crowds??


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Soon there won't be season passes available to specific mountains. You will have to buy a megapass to ski anywhere.



Exactly what I said. And folks thought I was equally crazy.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Get it now?



I can see the potentiality of your overall point, but definitely not how you're explaining it.   

People with $270,000 extra dollars to buy a "ski home", arent going to see an annual ski pass as a "financial burden".


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## JimG. (Feb 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I can see the potentiality of your overall point, but definitely not how you're explaining it.
> 
> People with $270,000 extra dollars to buy a "ski home", arent going to see an annual ski pass as a "financial burden".



You completely missed my point.

The home itself is the financial burden, not the ski pass.

Why would anyone buy a ski home:

1) near a mountain that they can't buy a season pass at because they are forced to buy a megapass?

2) when they have to travel to take advantage of the megapass they have to purchase?

Reread my previous post.


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## mbedle (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You completely missed my point.
> 
> The home itself is the financial burden, not the ski pass.
> 
> ...



I guess I am still missing your point. Do you not considered the Epic Pass a season pass at places like Stowe or Okemo?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You completely missed my point.
> 
> The home itself is the financial burden, not the ski pass.
> 
> ...


I'd only buy a ski home if it met certain criteria financially.

A. It's in a location that I want to visit frequently outside of the 5 month ski season

or

B. It would have the potential for short term rental income in the off season that covered my expenses while not using it.

Otherwise I'd rent

As for whether the physical ski mountain is on an individual pass vs megapass, I'd simply look at industry history and know ownership, management styles and affiliations are probably going to change over the couple of decades or more that I'd plan on using it.  That's been the case for virtually all major Northeast ski areas since the 90s. 



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## kingslug (Feb 25, 2020)

We bought at Stowe and it has worked out pretty well. We rent it here and there..we like the area...its "only 5 hours from CT" yeah I know but its not the worst drive. Its nice in the off season. And it snows quite a bit up there. Plus it gives us access to several places within an hour. Its our escape from working in this dump called NYC. 
Skiing is one of the few escapes I have from the madness of working in the city..I'm just not going to let its "evolution" turn me sour on it..have to roll with it and deal with it.


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## jaytrem (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> 2) when they have to travel to take advantage of the megapass they have to purchase?



This I don't get.  It seems like the megapasses are either cheaper or not much more expensive than the "regular" season passes that were previously offered.  Only difference is the pass is now good at a load of other places.  If you don't use it at any of them who cares.


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## kingslug (Feb 25, 2020)

Stowe season pass was 1800 bucks...
https://www.vtcng.com/stowe_reporte...cle_e7515264-3c04-11e7-8d86-079751e2166c.html


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## drjeff (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You completely missed my point.
> 
> The home itself is the financial burden, not the ski pass.
> 
> ...



I guess if one was looking at a mountain that's part of IKON, but not with an unlimited number of days at that mountain, then one would have the decision to make about getting that specific mountain's season pass if they wanted to ski more than the allotted number of IKON days and/or also get a mega pass additionally if that made sense to them.

In my own specific case with Mount Snow as my home base and being on the EPIC, my EPIC local is my unlimited pass which works great for me, and many of my friends, who also own at Mount Snow, have also used their EPIC passes to travel out West this year. A win/win for us.  Cost difference was minimal, options that EPIC created are numerous. 

Also, at least within my own, albeit limited without a doubt, cross section of friends who are 2nd homeowners at Mount Snow, probably close to 50% of them will also take a trip, or even multiple trips, out West every season.  We all love skiing and/or riding, and we bought our 2nd homes since it makes the week in and week out logistics of our on hill enjoyment easier, that still doesn't mean that we also don't from time to time want to go out West and ski there as well. For example in the last week or 2 with it being numerous school vacation weeks, my FB page has had many pictures of some of my Mount Snow friends out at Vail, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte, Big Sky, Jackson Hole, and Steamboat. Many of us, for various reasons, also have both EPIC's and IKON's this season


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## boston_e (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You completely missed my point.
> 
> The home itself is the financial burden, not the ski pass.
> 
> ...



Except for the most part these "mega passes" are cheaper than what used to be the mountain specific season pass... why should it matter if that pass also includes other mountains?

In the case of a mountain that is on a mega pass, but not unlimited days, they will still always give you the option to buy that mountain specific pass...


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

It's hard to know without robust survey data or the passage of time, but I have a hard time believing that people with the desire and ability to purchase a second home are now less likely to do so because of the pass options that are available. 

As I've mentioned several times here, i grew up going to my parent's place in the MWV. We had the ASC super pass come though. It afforded us the option to go to SR and SL more often than we would have. My dad hit SB a few times on midweek school days. We also hit K a few times, too.

Wildcat was frankly a bigger win from my perspective, and having Stowe (and to a lesser extent, western options) in play for a few days a season makes me more excited about saving for my own place in the MWV one day. I've been to most of the IKON options in the east, and I like them a lot. It's enough to move the needle for me though. Frankly, the worst case scenario for me would to have all the MWV resorts offering single mountain passes. 

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## AdironRider (Feb 25, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's hard to know without robust survey data or the passage of time, but I have a hard time believing that people with the desire and ability to purchase a second home are now less likely to do so because of the pass options that are available.



Or you could just listen to any of us actual locals shouting from rooftops that this is a PROBLEM. I do not understand the apologists on this board for ski resort management incompetence. 

Rich people don't like waiting in line with 10000 of their closest friends. There was a reason Jackson and Aspen get the prices they do, and it is more than just terrain/snowfall.    

To be fair though, I do not see this being a problem on the EC second home market (outside of maybe Stowe), where every hardcore skier is going to take their cheap access to Jackson/Vail/Alta/Aspen once a year because EC skiing is a means to an end at best, and they'll buy a place at an EC hill for different reasons like logistics or programming.


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Or you could just listen to any of us actual locals shouting from rooftops that this is a PROBLEM. I do not understand the apologists on this board for ski resort management incompetence.
> 
> Rich people don't like waiting in line with 10000 of their closest friends. There was a reason Jackson and Aspen get the prices they do, and it is more than just terrain/snowfall.
> 
> To be fair though, I do not see this being a problem on the EC second home market (outside of maybe Stowe), where every hardcore skier is going to take their cheap access to Jackson/Vail/Alta/Aspen once a year because EC skiing is a means to an end at best, and they'll buy a place at an EC hill for different reasons like logistics or programming.


I hear you on the western piece. I have no desire to ski an Epic/IKON place out west on the weekend at all. I'd rather try an independent place on the weekend or get home earlier and save the $$$ on lodging, etc. I'm not realistically the type to want to buy out west unless it were full time, but any interest I did have has gone down.

It feels like the default view of large ski areas is that locals always have a reason to complain. Therefore, their complaints (which seem totally valid here) can easily be dismissed as inevitable complaining by a naturally whiny demographic.

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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

I'm not sure many ski area GMs give a shit about the crowding complaints whether from locals or tourists if the mountain is printing money. 

Massive crowds is not incompetence, it's literally the exact opposite.  That's what a business wants to be.  As busy and profitable as can be. 

Will the crowds eventually drive people elsewhere and negate those profits?  I don't think in a meaningful enough way for the Megapass areas to make many significant changes.  

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Or you could just listen to any of us actual locals shouting from rooftops that this is a PROBLEM. *I do not understand the apologists on this board for ski resort management incompetence. *



That's only about 3 posters who never mention an unkind word about EPIC or IKON, lol.   They like their cheap skiing, and to hell with the consequences (for others); to each his/her own I guess.


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure many ski area GMs give a shit about the crowding complaints whether from locals or tourists if the mountain is printing money.
> 
> Massive crowds is not incompetence, it's literally the exact opposite.  That's what a business wants to be.  As busy and profitable as can be.
> 
> ...


Yeah the only thing you can really knock (from a $$$ perspective) is that visitor satisfaction is probably going down. Raking in the $$$ now is great for today, but could do some long run harm if the mega passes turn too many people off over time. We'll see eventually.

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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah the only thing you can really knock (from a $$$ perspective) is that visitor satisfaction is probably going down. Raking in the $$$ now is great for today, but *could do some long run harm if the mega passes turn too many people off over time. *We'll see eventually.



Or prevent people from ever taking up the sport in the first place due to the high cost of single day tix, which is a real concern.


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## machski (Feb 25, 2020)

So I've heard this from both the SLC and JJ crowds that it seems like Ikon pass Blackout weekends crowds are down or non existent but other weekends are nuts.  So let's analyze this then.  We think about 1/2 million or so Ikon's were sold, no idea on full vs base breakdown.  But on anecdotal evidence, let's assume most were bases.  Let's also assume half were sold to residents in greater SLC area (250K).  Each pass is only good for 5 days, so those passed represent 1.25miliion skier days up LCC.  Now spread that over the weekend days available during peak season and yes, I can see congestion on weekends.  Outside of weekends or a saved day for deep powder o cannot.  Obviously more passes were sold but in my case, if I'm traveling out there, I am coming for a week and skiing mainly midweek anyway.

Perhaps the solution would be for partner resorts not added to the full access list (Copper/Eldora), limit base passes to non Saturdays (granted this might make Sundays completely unworth it) or purely midweek outside of peak season (xmas-mid march).  If they do that, they would need to bump up the full price difference more over base to prevent many from just stepping up.

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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or prevent people from ever taking up the sport in the first place due to the high cost of single day tix, which is a real concern.


That, too

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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

machski said:


> So I've heard this from both the SLC and JJ crowds that it seems like Ikon pass Blackout weekends crowds are down or non existent but other weekends are nuts.  So let's analyze this then.  We think about 1/2 million or so Ikon's were sold, no idea on full vs base breakdown.  But on anecdotal evidence, let's assume most were bases.  Let's also assume half were sold to residents in greater SLC area (250K).  Each pass is only good for 5 days, so those passed represent 1.25miliion skier days up LCC.  Now spread that over the weekend days available during peak season and yes, I can see congestion on weekends.  Outside of weekends or a saved day for deep powder o cannot.  Obviously more passes were sold but in my case, if I'm traveling out there, I am coming for a week and skiing mainly midweek anyway.
> 
> Perhaps the solution would be for partner resorts not added to the full access list (Copper/Eldora), limit base passes to non Saturdays (granted this might make Sundays completely unworth it) or purely midweek outside of peak season (xmas-mid march).  If they do that, they would need to bump up the full price difference more over base to prevent many from just stepping up.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



So Alta/Bird has said that they had over a million skier days last season in LCC which was a record.  The pinch points are the road and parking.  

I agree with you that restricting IKON to midweek non-holiday is a good compromise.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2020)




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## Smellytele (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I give up.
> 
> You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.
> 
> Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.



Still trying to figure out who is defending it. Just read 8 posts against or at least reasons and how to modify them.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or prevent people from ever taking up the sport in the first place due to the high cost of single day tix, which is a real concern.



Fighting the good fight still I see.

Another real concern is half-burnt out skiers, realizing what the sport costs them in time+money+travel, and saying "screw it" early and either retiring / finding new hobbies or saying I'll just ski the local mountain a few times a year.


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## machski (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I give up.
> 
> You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.
> 
> Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.


If there are crowds, how do you figure homeowners would sell for a loss?  Sounds like there might be demand to me.  Prices will go up, but not astronomically, that blows up the Epic/Ikon model if it gets ridiculously priced.

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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

Speaking of too crowded Superpass mountains, I skied Stowe today with my four year old.  First time here in 5 years because of you guessed it; having an Epic pass.  

Your ski area might be too crowded with Jerries if you need Rest Area signs on the sides of the trails. 



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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 25, 2020)

saw those at Okemo the last 2 days.  I laughed, but figured if the demographic indicates that is needed so be it.  Remember ski forum members aren't the target demographic for these alleged safety measures. 

I've largely not weighed in on this megapass thing, because honestly I have no choice.  My local mountain was PEAK>EPIC.  Clearly one is better than the other.  

Will I do more trips to VT, NH, and out west because I have EPIC. probably.  I already have 10 days out outside of PA on my EPIC.  In a normal year I might only have say 6-8 days outside of PA. It sure makes planning a trip easier when I've already paid for the skiing.  I could honestly see a situation where I hold both EPIC and IKON if I wanted to take a vacation out west to non-EPIC resorts.  When you look at the cost of multi-day tickets for a western trip its not that far fetched to just scoop up an IKON too.   Then the same thing happens my days out west maybe double and my Northeast days might triple?  So its easy to see how this crowding problem has happened.  For newer megapass holders they might think this is the norm, and just roll with it. Again most people skiing aren't on forums discussing these things.   

Because I'm on a forum like this and I generally know when ski areas are super busy I can plan accordingly.  The limitations on EPIC local are basically a non-factor for me. I'm never going to ski any of the holiday periods, and even if they increase the number of resorts on limited days, I'll likely never exceed those. 

I will say this.  the high cost of trying to get into this sport has always been an impediment.  Unfortunately, it appears that the megapass is making this problem worse.  I would hope that at least in the long term these corporations are able to think about ways to make it affordable to get people into the sport who eventually buy the pass offering.  Right now it would seem that they really don't need to do that, but who knows what 5 years from now brings?


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I give up.
> 
> You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.
> 
> Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.


I'm no super pass apologist. Like most things in life, they have pros and cons, and I've just gotta take the good with the bad.

I just really don't understand how the superpass scheme changes the benefits of a second home. If you'd rather spread out your visits broadly across Epic/IKON land than ski regularly near your mountain home base, that's great. But maybe what's driving your sentiment is that you're just not the right candidate to get a second home in the mountains in the first place and your $$$ is best spent elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with liking options.

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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I give up.
> 
> You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.


Every argument you've put up had been debunked, by different people too. If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will. 

There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern. 

You want to support smaller independent mountains? Good for you. 

You want to have a community feel on the mountain? Pick a mountain that has it. 

But you won't be doing it for the "reasons" you put forth, except to make you feel better about your decision NOT to buy in a mega-resort. And financially, you're quite likely to be worse off staying away from the mega-resorts. So your effort to "justify" it is quite unlikely to pan out.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Every argument you've put up had been debunked, by different people too. If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will.



Debunking isn't a real thing in the realm of opinion/subjectivity. Unless you're Snopes.



abc said:


> There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern.



C'mon people gave lots of reasons, I have a few myself (that being one of them). I tend not to support monopolies. I have different preferred skiing habits. I happen to enjoy many of the unaffiliated ski areas and hope for their survival. Crowds, yes, that's a big deterrent. Knowing that you're supporting a system that will lead to higher prices and more ski areas closing for arguably short term gain, that too.



abc said:


> You want to support smaller independent mountains? Good for you.



Yeah, I prefer as much horizontal capitalism as possible. Plus more places to ski for cheap.



abc said:


> You want to have a community feel on the mountain? Pick a mountain that has it.



Agreed. There are still good options for this, hopefully they won't have to close.



abc said:


> But you won't be doing it for the "reasons" you put forth, except to make you feel better about your decision NOT to buy in a mega-resort. And financially, you're quite likely to be worse off staying away from the mega-resorts. So your effort to "justify" it is quite unlikely to pan out.



I know your comment was for JimG and I decided to reply anyway... for my place no moral or ethical standards on my involvement in the sport of skiing. I have a lot of questions about the sustainability of skiing even on a personal level, let alone even approaching the waters of attaching myself emotionally to where I may/may not ski or what others do.

My basis for taking the contrary view is what I think is better for more small/medium ski area survival, low costs, variety, and attracting new people to the sport. Horizontal capitalism = more competition which makes everyone perform better.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> My basis for taking the contrary view is what I think is better for more small/medium ski area survival, low costs, variety, and attracting new people to the sport. Horizontal capitalism = more competition which makes everyone perform better.


Supporting small/medium ski area isn't specifically "contrary view" per se. It's only "contrary" to one view, the view of the mega-resort managers. 

It's not the view that I disagree with. It's JimG's justification that doesn't actually stand up to reason & logic (which was "debunk" by several others) that I care to point out.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

machski said:


> If there are crowds, how do you figure homeowners would sell for a loss?  Sounds like there might be demand to me.  Prices will go up, but not astronomically, that blows up the Epic/Ikon model if it gets ridiculously priced.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



What you are missing is that people *used to pay a premium* for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON.  Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen.  Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check).  So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes.  Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.  

I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern.



Since when do second homeowners only ski midweek?  If anything, they ski the weekends and holidays.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2020)

The way forward is in the timeshare "points" model. You pay $899 a year plus $279 membership fee for a total of 30,000 Ski Points. These points can be carried over into the next year with a $199 (yearly) Platinum Membership Upgrade. To carry over points up to one additional year a $249 Points Protection Upgrade is available.

Deer Valley will cost you 10,000 points a day (plus $200 total in "per point usage fee") but you can ski Sunapee and Okemo as much as you can tolerate!


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> What you are missing is that people *used to pay a premium* for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON.  Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen.  Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check).  So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes.  Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.
> 
> I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.



This!!! Thanks TB.

Many are obsessed with cheap. I'm not. I want quality and I'm happy to pay for it. People who love cheap don't care about quality. And the megapass caters to cheap.

Not my thing.

As for skiing midweek only, while many of my days are midweek I still ski on weekends but less so now because of the stupid crowds. To me that's a restriction of my ski days brought about solely because of the megapass.

Not my thing either.

That's my opinion and really I don't care what others think or others who want to "debunk" an opinion. Last I checked debunking refers to facts that turn out to be lies. Think about that.


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## farlep99 (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> What you are missing is that people *used to pay a premium* for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON.  Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen.  Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check).  So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes.  Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.
> 
> I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.



I get this point, but it doesn't mean anyone is selling for a loss.  Worst (best?) case scenario is you decide to not use the 2nd home anymore and rent it out, in which case all of these IKON people need places to stay so you should have no issue with short term rentals.  I know several people with 2nd homes in the Stowe area (MRV too) and the short term rental (Airbnb, etc) rental market is red-hot.  It always has been a good rental market in Stowe for the most part, but everyone I talk to certainly thinks that Epic passes have increased the demand (and consequently, the rental rates).


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

farlep99 said:


> I get this point, but it doesn't mean anyone is selling for a loss.  Worst (best?) case scenario is you decide to not use the 2nd home anymore and rent it out, in which case all of these IKON people need places to stay so you should have no issue with short term rentals.  I know several people with 2nd homes in the Stowe area (MRV too) and the short term rental (Airbnb, etc) rental market is red-hot.  It always has been a good rental market in Stowe for the most part, but everyone I talk to certainly thinks that Epic passes have increased the demand (and consequently, the rental rates).



Again, if you paid for the Stowe or Deer Valley experience, and now those brands are equated with cheap EPIC/IKON, then you've lost the value for your property.  

IKON and EPIC do not equate to high value clientele, not even in the rental market.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> What you are missing is that people *used to pay a premium* for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON.  Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen.  Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check).  So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes.  Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.
> 
> I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.


"The point" of the brand being eroded, aka "de-valued" is NOT the same as the value of the property being reduced!

Let's say, hypothetically, the property value at Aspen or Deer Valley will come down by ANY amount, I and many others will jump right in and buy it as rental investment property! Them being on IKON means there will be many visitors who would need a place to crash at the end of the day. The supply are limited. So the value have to go up if more visitors are visiting, even for a few days! 

So, if a home owner got sick of the crowd and wants to cash out, they'll probably be making a killing rather than losing money!

It's perfectly fine to put one's money where it will derive the best happiness for oneself. Just be very careful about using fictitious justification that don't stand up to logic and economical reality.


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> "The point" of the brand being eroded, aka "de-valued" is NOT the same as the value of the property being reduced!
> 
> Let's say, hypothetically, the property value at Aspen or Deer Valley will come down by ANY amount, I and many others will jump right in and buy it as rental investment property! Them being on IKON means there will be many visitors who would need a place to crash at the end of the day. The supply are limited. So the value have to go up if more visitors are visiting, even for a few days!
> 
> ...


There are ranges of properties where that's  likely the case. I could see the upper echelons of the market trading down for the reasons TB outlined. 

Could you make decent rental income on a condo at the base of Deer Valley? Probably. 

Could you do the same with a large mid-mountain spread? Probably not. Same goes for ranches (as in vast properties on large plots of land, not 1 level homes) in Aspen. Part of the point was to escape where the riff raff like us were less likely to go.

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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> "The point" of the brand being eroded, aka "de-valued" is NOT the same as the value of the property being reduced!
> 
> Let's say, hypothetically, the property value at Aspen or Deer Valley will come down by ANY amount, I and many others will jump right in and buy it as rental investment property! Them being on IKON means there will be many visitors who would need a place to crash at the end of the day. The supply are limited. So the value have to go up if more visitors are visiting, even for a few days!
> 
> ...



You're still missing the point.  Deer Valley is not just any ski area.  People paid a hefty premium to be there.  Now it is just "another" ski area.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2020)

^
I can understand the disappointment when hoping for a Mitt Romney sighting and instead you bump into KustyTheKlown.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You're still missing the point.  *Deer Valley is not just any ski area*.  People paid a hefty premium to be there.  Now it is just "another" ski area.


They say the same about Aspen and Telluride. 

I guess the difference between Aspen and DV is Aspen has legitimate terrain, DV doesn't.  

But so what? The point is not whether the "brand" is eroded. The point is the brand may has CHANGED. And the change, while it may not be to the liking of the existing owner, it's unlikely they'll lose money. Because the new brand maybe attracting MORE interest, and BETTER value for someone else!


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 25, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> I can understand the disappointment when hoping for a Mitt Romney sighting and instead you bump into KustyTheKlown.




:lol: :lol:


----------



## AdironRider (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> They say the same about Aspen and Telluride.
> 
> I guess the difference between Aspen and DV is Aspen has legitimate terrain, DV doesn't.
> 
> But so what? The point is not whether the "brand" is eroded. The point is the brand may has CHANGED. And the change, while it may not be to the liking of the existing owner, it's unlikely they'll lose money. Because the new brand maybe attracting MORE interest, and BETTER value for someone else!



Yeah that is a great business model. Rolex is probably taking notes.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, if you paid for the Stowe or Deer Valley experience, and now those brands are equated with cheap EPIC/IKON, then you've lost the value for your property.
> 
> IKON and EPIC do not equate to high value clientele, not even in the rental market.



Yeah, I'm not in the market to buy a ski house only to rent it out. Not looking to be a landlord.

Especially not for Airbnb and the like.


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## 1dog (Feb 25, 2020)

Can anyone tell me about Telluride? 

Been to most all western states and areas - except California - like steeps and steeper - trees and side country, willing to hike- skin - just seems like its harder to get to -  and natural snowfall for 14K peaks isn't that high compared to other areas in CO and UT.

Saw on Zranking.com the 'true natural snow fall' is well under 300". . . .


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> *if you paid for the Stowe or Deer Valley experience, and now those brands are equated with cheap* EPIC/IKON, then you've lost the value for your property.  IKON and EPIC do not equate to high value clientele, not even in the rental market.



Definitely.   I believe this is a not insignificant brand risk DV, JH, Stowe, etc.... are either wantonly taking for a short-term benefit, or not fully giving consideration.  For every pizzed-off former millionaire customer who tosses cash around like confetti, you better sign up a ****load of IKON/EPIC members to replace him/her.




abc said:


> *Let's say, hypothetically, the property value at Aspen or Deer Valley will come down by ANY amount, I and many others will jump right in and buy it as rental investment property! *



If the property dropped in value_ that_ much, his point would have borne true.   As it is now, nobody is buying $2.78 Million DV pads to rent on AirBNB.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah that is a great business model. Rolex is probably taking notes.


Home owners in a ski mountain has as much power as a Rolex owner has on the brand's "standing", which is zero!

Funny you pick Rolex as an example. My folks worked in an industry where a Rolex watch is a "right of passage", without which on one's wrist, nobody takes you seriously. So how does a young aspiring guy get to be taken seriously? Well, if your folks doesn't work in the industry and handed you one, you'll just have to pony up the money for it. Like a lot of things, it's really not that valuable, except it was artificially made so through "exclusivity". It can be easily taken away by those who control it.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You're still missing the point.  Deer Valley is not just any ski area.  People paid a hefty premium to be there.  Now it is just "another" ski area.



Our argument is lost on the megapass crowd that cares not about quality. As long as it's cheap for them screw everyone who paid a premium.

And while these same folks don't care a lick, ski areas who choose to treat locals and homeowners this way will pay a hefty price. And when those folks up and leave, like BG says there had better be a shitload of cheapo megapass holders to make up the difference.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

1dog said:


> Can anyone tell me about Telluride?
> 
> Been to most all western states and areas - except California - like steeps and steeper - trees and side country, willing to hike- skin - just seems like its harder to get to -  and natural snowfall for 14K peaks isn't that high compared to other areas in CO and UT.
> 
> Saw on Zranking.com the 'true natural snow fall' is well under 300". . . .


Telluride is drop dead gorgeous! 

It has everything in terms of terrain. But I don't know enough about the snow record. It's very much in the same ball park as the other southern Colorado mountains though, think Taos and Crested Butte.   

You want steep and steeper, but "been everywhere EXCEPT California"? That's one state that has an outsized share of steeps in comparison to other states.


----------



## mbedle (Feb 25, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> I can understand the disappointment when hoping for a Mitt Romney sighting and instead you bump into KustyTheKlown.



OMG - good one.... lol


----------



## 1dog (Feb 25, 2020)

yes I've been to Sqaw in summer - KT22 looks just right - but the snow. . . . like NE and Europe - a crap shoot. been going to Montana.Wyoming.Utah.CO every year for 30 and never been a rain out or thin snow. . . . .  I should have gone to CA last winter.. . . . 

I make calls in Oct/Nov so I can't do last minute dump/flights.

I got an email from this company that books your week for $2500-$3500 and tell you 3 days before departure where you are going to get the powder. . . . . .  have no idea how they run a business model like that - but those prices include flights. . . . . . .  and some meals. . . . . . 

forgot the name. . . .


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Our argument is lost on the megapass crowd that cares not about quality. As long as it's cheap for them screw everyone who paid a premium.


Why should the public cares about how much those who paid a premium? It's up to the "premium payer" to guarantee they get their money's worth. Otherwise, it's a sucker's game!


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Why should the public cares about how much those who paid a premium? It's up to the "premium payer" to guarantee they get their money's worth. Otherwise, it's a sucker's game!



Like Adironrider said, I'll bet Rolex is taking notes on your obvious business savvy.


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## 1dog (Feb 25, 2020)

I skied DV in '98 just after the Lewinsky debacle and Clintons were staying at Speilbergs house in DV - and not speaking to each other - gee, imagine that? Saw more suited men in black w sunglasses than ever before. . . .  no Hill on the hill tho. . . . 

I did have a fur collared leather coat with long hair and  sunglasses the week of Sundance - hanging on Main St in PC and a lot of people  thought I was 'somebody'. . . .I guarantee you. . .I'm nobody and hope to keep it that way as long a possible. . . . preferrably forever.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> I can understand the disappointment when hoping for a Mitt Romney sighting and instead you bump into KustyTheKlown.



i lol’d


----------



## boston_e (Feb 25, 2020)

Do published numbers exist as far as skier visits nationally that would show that skier visits have increased since the inception of these mega-passes?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> I can understand the disappointment when hoping for a Mitt Romney sighting and instead you bump into KustyTheKlown.



Post of the day!

[emoji1]


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## Zermatt (Feb 25, 2020)

Ikon Pass pricing came out on this Tuesday (today), in 2019.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> They say the same about Aspen and Telluride.
> 
> I guess the difference between Aspen and DV is Aspen has legitimate terrain, DV doesn't.
> 
> But so what? The point is not whether the "brand" is eroded. The point is the brand may has CHANGED. And the change, while it may not be to the liking of the existing owner, it's unlikely they'll lose money. Because the new brand maybe attracting MORE interest, and BETTER value for someone else!



Have you been to Deer Valley?  I’d put Aspen in the same category. Not so sure about Telluride.  Deer Valley has long held the title of the original posh area. 


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If the property dropped in value_ that_ much, his point would have borne true.   As it is now, nobody is buying $2.78 Million DV pads to rent on AirBNB.



Exactly. DV homes are multi-million. Many north of $10 million. Those aren’t going to be VRBO/AirBNB units.  

I’m surprised that Alterra hasn’t allowed snowboarders yet [emoji6]



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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

So where are all these highfalutin DV, Telluride, Jackson, Aspen and Stowe skiers  gonna go because the exclusivity brand at those areas has been tarnished?   

What other North American resorts are offering the same type of a product with a high priced and independent pass?  A lot the attraction to these areas aren't just the ski areas, but the towns themselves with the higher end restaurants and galleries.

It's not like a Burke could just put a $1800 price tag on a pass promising limited crowds and a bunch of Stowe skiers with seven figure homes are going to migrate over.  

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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. DV homes are multi-million. Many north of $10 million. Those aren’t going to be VRBO/AirBNB units.
> 
> I’m surprised that Alterra hasn’t allowed snowboarders yet [emoji6]
> 
> ...



the slopeside homes you see from the lifts at DV are fucking wild. like mark cuban richard branson jeff bezos fuckin wild.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Do published numbers exist as far as skier visits nationally that would show that skier visits have increased since the inception of these mega-passes?



IIRC the numbers had been flat if not declining but last season was up.  And, IIRC, the NSAA attributed the uptick to....wait for it...great snow.  Clearly Alterra got to them [emoji6]


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Have you been to Deer Valley?  I’d put Aspen in the same category. Not so sure about Telluride.  Deer Valley has long held the title of the original posh area.


Not only had I been to DV many time pre-Ikon, I had done them for free! Free as in flying in the morning and ski DV free!!! Remember those???

Such “exclusivity” that everyone is assuming!

I also have a friend who lived in PC for the past 10+ years. There had been MANY discount schemes for the “unwashed masses” to afford DV, if they so wish! Many don’t bother because there’s not much that makes DV’s stands out over the competition. 

It’s only exclusive in the mind of those who bought into the charade. It never was exclusive before Ikon. Not as far as the skiing goes.

Unlike Aspen, which has no nearby bed base, DV can be done by anyone who’s paying a day ticket, then go back to a fleebag motel in SLC at the end of the day. It’s nowhere near as “exclusive” as Aspen. Posh perhaps, exclusive no.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2020)

What exactly is your definition of "posh" versus "exclusive" exactly? 

A parade of rich & famous people ski at Deer Valley probably weekly, I'd say it's akin with Aspen, Vail, and Jackson Hole in that regard.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> What exactly is your definition of "posh" versus "exclusive" exactly?
> 
> A parade of rich & famous people ski at Deer Valley probably weekly, I'd say it's akin with Aspen, Vail, and Jackson Hole in that regard.


The rich and famous are still there. But people seem to think just because there’re riff-raff there, the “brand” is cheapened. 

I’m merely pointing out DV had always have plenty of riffraffs! In reality, DV had actively try to attract them in the past. 

More over, the daily ticket cap is still there.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. DV homes are multi-million. Many north of $10 million. Those aren’t going to be VRBO/AirBNB units.
> 
> I’m surprised that Alterra hasn’t allowed snowboarders yet [emoji6]
> 
> ...



They're not?   Do a search of Deer Valet on VRBO.  I picked a random week in February for next season.  I found 85 homes available from $2500 to as high as $17,820 per night.  Really hope the top dog gets their last $20 a night on that deal. I'm sure they need it.  Haha

I definitely know in Stowe, there are many higher end homes that the owners use maybe once or twice a year and rent them out the rest of the time.  These same folks probably have a Stowe home and a DV or Aspen home as well.  I've got a friend in town who make a very nice living just washing windows on these properties.  He works 7 months a year and takes the winters off to ski.  Sometimes he stays in town, two winters ago he opted to hang in Big Sky for the winter and he's done some BC destinations too.  He's been at it for 25 years and says these types of vacation use scenarios have always existed.  Used to be local realtors, now VRBO and the like. 

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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> So where are all these highfalutin DV, Telluride, Jackson, Aspen and Stowe skiers  gonna go because the exclusivity brand at those areas has been tarnished?
> 
> What other North American resorts are offering the same type of a product with a high priced and independent pass?  A lot the attraction to these areas aren't just the ski areas, but the towns themselves with the higher end restaurants and galleries.
> 
> ...


Not many. Diamond Peak in Tahoe comes to mind. That area of the lake is fancy. I think Telluride and Revelstoke are pretty insulated. Both are really far from population centers and are either hard or expensive to get to. Crested Butte probably falls into that bucket, too. AZ Snowbowl is independent and near Flagstaff, which I hear is nice. Powder Mountain, UT?

Who knows though - the super rich would probably just visit their DV house less frequently or sell it and buy a yacht instead.

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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

My problem with the development of this thread is, while crowds is clearly a problem in the mega-resorts, somehow it’s become more a problem for the “posh” resorts diluting their “exclusivity“?

I suggest those paying a “premium” for exclusivity are just deluding themselves. 

If you like the mountain, and can afford it? By all means buy in and enjoy it. But don’t for a minute expect it to remain that way for decades (or even years) to come. As long as you don’t own (at least shares of) the mountain, it could change next year! 

That said, chances are pretty good for these “premium” destinations to remain desirable whatever the change. So you’re unlikely to lose whatever money you put into it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2020)

aint nothing upscale about the town of revelstoke bc.


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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> aint nothing upscale about the town of revelstoke bc.


I hear there's not much there... for now.

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## EPB (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> If you like the mountain, and can afford it? By all means buy in and enjoy it. But don’t for a minute expect it to remain that way for decades (or even years) to come. As long as you don’t own (at least shares of) the mountain, it could change next year!



Agreed. This is a risk you take when you buy real estate - and it's true anywhere. There's no guarantee that your ski area will stay in business, and there's no guarantee that your home economy will continue to thrive enough to support the local population or have a job you want to work.

The only really wealthy people I have sympathy for in the skiing real estate scene are the Hermitage people. They paid for a certain private experience and got defrauded. That's not cool no matter how unsympathetic the victims may be.

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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> My problem with the development of this thread is, while crowds is clearly a problem in the mega-resorts, somehow it’s become more a problem for the “posh” resorts diluting their “exclusivity“?
> 
> I suggest those paying a “premium” for exclusivity are just deluding themselves.
> 
> ...


Very true.  You can't expect places to always remain the same.  Though a place like Wildcat in the East has the best shot at it.

I skied Stowe today and vastly prefer what it was like in 95 when I first moved to town.  It was modestly more expensive than other VT areas at the time, but the mountain vibe  back then was it was very much a ski bums mountain and also a great spot for families.  The terrain hasnt changed much since then, but the vibe and crowd very much has.  Many of my old ski bum friends have moved on to Smuggs or Sugarbush. As far as a family skiing destination?  Unless you are staying at Spruce, there is not a single major resort in the East that sucks more than Stowe does for families with young children learning to ski.  That's who got screwed the most with Spruce Peak Village. 

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## cdskier (Feb 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> So where are all these highfalutin DV, Telluride, Jackson, Aspen and Stowe skiers  gonna go because the exclusivity brand at those areas has been tarnished?
> 
> What other North American resorts are offering the same type of a product with a high priced and independent pass?  A lot the attraction to these areas aren't just the ski areas, but the towns themselves with the higher end restaurants and galleries.
> 
> It's not like a Burke could just put a $1800 price tag on a pass promising limited crowds and a bunch of Stowe skiers with seven figure homes are going to migrate over.



Things have been a little crazy at work plus I'm up in Waltham, MA for the week on a business trip so haven't had time to look at this board much other than from my hotel at night. Sure are a lot of entertaining comments in this thread as I've read through everything posted today. Your question though is an interesting one. Maybe some will stop skiing entirely? I don't know the western market and I'm not going to pretend to know the problems/answers out there. But here in the east, if people legitimately have a problem with "mega-pass" crowds, what is stopping them from skiing the independents here in the East? MRG, Smuggs, Jay, Cannon, Whiteface, Gore, etc are just a few of the larger independents available. Then there are plenty of smaller independents too. People need to speak with their wallets. If there are as many people that strongly favor quality and don't care about price as some claim, then these independents should be able to have no problems attracting more skier visits. In reality mega-passes should be a rather substantial boon to these type of places.

I'm not going to attempt to quote/reply to any other posts as there were just too many. But to go back to "eastern" skiing again (that is what AZ's primary focus is supposed to be), I'm curious from an eastern perspective what real estate markets Jim thinks have been hurt by mega-passes? I've personally overheard several people on lifts at SB recently talking about thinking about buying a condo/home in the MRV. I'm just not seeing people wanting to "flee" because the "mega-pass hoards are coming". I really don't see the mega-pass being a major factor in most eastern ski area real estate markets. To me the "ski resort second home-owner" demographic is very different from people that are completely on board with taking full advantage of a mega pass and jumping around to a different resort every week. Personally you could include 100 additional resorts on my pass and it wouldn't cause much of a difference in my skiing behavior. I like having a "home resort". I like having a "community" where I know people. I like the convenience of just being able to drive up whenever I want and knowing I don't need to hunt around for lodging. I like the convenience of leaving all my ski gear at my condo and not bringing it back and forth with me every week. I fully recognize that there are a lot of people that are NOT like me and don't care about those things and would love the flexibility of going somewhere different every week. They were unlikely to be second homeowners though anyway.

I also think blaming Alterra is silly. If a partner resort skier has a problem with Ikon, they should complain to that particular resort's management. They're the ones to blame. I think many of the rumors were that the initial deals with Alterra were 3 year deals. So the interesting thing to watch will be what happens when it is time to renegotiate those deals. Will places like DV, Alta, JH drop out? I'd also add that some of the "suggestions" for fixing Ikon are a bit ridiculous. "Make Ikon only valid mid-week" just completely negates most of the "value" in the partner resort feature of the pass from Alterra's perspective. If Epic is valid on weekends at all their resorts, Ikon needs to be too in order to compete. Restricting weekends in general just makes no sense from Alterra's POV.

In conclusion, people need to remember that we're only in the 2nd year of having 2 major mega-passes. We'll certainly see corrections and changes as resorts try to balance customer satisfaction appropriately. I think some of that correction will come from us "users" as well. If people are legitimately fed up, they'll go elsewhere and the mega pass owners will see this and take it into account.

Enough rambling from me...


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Very true.  You can't expect places to always remain the same.  Though a place like Wildcat in the East has the best shot at it.
> 
> I skied Stowe today and vastly prefer what it was like in 95 when I first moved to town.  It was modestly more expensive than other VT areas at the time, but the mountain vibe  back then was it was very much a ski bums mountain and also a great spot for families.  The terrain hasnt changed much since then, but the vibe and crowd very much has.  Many of my old ski bum friends have moved on to Smuggs or Sugarbush. As far as a family skiing destination?  Unless you are staying at Spruce, there is not a single major resort in the East that sucks more than Stowe does for families with young children learning to ski.  That's who got screwed the most with Spruce Peak Village.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



why havent they upgraded the toll house lift and put parking and ski school and etc down there? would be a great beginner's compound.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> why havent they upgraded the toll house lift and put parking and ski school and etc down there? would be a great beginner's compound.


They need to either do that or convert the mountain ops building adjacent to the Overeasy Gondola into a day lodge, but even that won't address the poor location of the beginner lifts and trails to the lodge at Spruce Peak.  

As the father of a four year old, there are two things I value above all else when taking my son skiing.  Ease of egress from car to lodge and proximity of beginner lifts and terrain to that lodge.  Stowe sucks at both of these features today.  Back in the day, there was a considerable amount of parking at Spruce and the lodge was more centered and provided a quicker walk to the beginner lifts / trails.  

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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Enough rambling from me...


That’s a very nicely thought out rambling. A lot more coherent than many of the shhot-from-the-hip posts we typically have here. 

My only quibble is on the weekend blackout suggestion. It’s not as ridiculous as you thought. Epic pass is actually quite complicated. It has Saturday blackouts in some regions. So it’s definitely not entirely off the table for Ikon to do something similar. 

But I suspect Alterra and the partners are locked in till after their initial 3 year. So for 2021, we’ll just have to continue to debate about it endlessly.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm curious from an eastern perspective what real estate markets Jim thinks have been hurt by mega-passes?
> 
> In conclusion, people need to remember that we're only in the 2nd year of having 2 major mega-passes. We'll certainly see corrections and changes as resorts try to balance customer satisfaction appropriately. I think some of that correction will come from us "users" as well. If people are legitimately fed up, they'll go elsewhere and the mega pass owners will see this and take it into account.



Nothing has been affected or hurt...yet.

It's just speculation on my part, that's all. Remember, I'm one of those folks who is considering getting a ski home. Frankly I'm glad I'm looking and not owning right now and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that position who is now carefully waiting and watching. As you said, year 2 of a 3 year deal. We shall see.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

Stowe became a mega-resort a few more years back. Did the real estate got hurt? 

Okemo followed right after. These were before Alterra. It’s not like we don’t have some hints.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

Waiting and watching...


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## Zand (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Stowe became a mega-resort a few more years back. Did the real estate got hurt?
> 
> Okemo followed right after. These were before Alterra. It’s not like we don’t have some hints.



Stowe you could use, but has Okemo really changed that much? It's been 15 years since they added Jackson Hole and the hotel, but it didnt really seem to change the overall crowding. They already had a couple thousand condos or whatever.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

Reality being, Okemo was pretty crowded to begin with. Stowe a little less so. 

It’s quite a few years of “waiting and watching” when it comes to Stowe. Except the way things are changing, you may be waiting, but you’re not watching. Because whatever you think you’re seeing, it’s ready to change again!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Nothing has been affected or hurt...yet.
> 
> It's just speculation on my part, that's all. Remember, I'm one of those folks who is considering getting a ski home. Frankly I'm glad I'm looking and not owning right now and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that position who is now carefully waiting and watching. As you said, year 2 of a 3 year deal. We shall see.


Why not do a seasonal rental vs buy?  I'm about 90% certain I'm renting a place up near Wildcat next season.  I can afford to buy, but I'm not sure we'd get the off season use out of it for it to make financial sense nor do I necessarily want to double my home ownership maintenance hassles at this time.  If Vail/Epic fs up Wildcat too bad, I can just switch to Cannon and rent or buy over there.  The place I'm looking at is $8k for 4 months.  To buy similar would be $225k.  Given my intended use model, the better investment is doing a rental and putting the remainder of what I'd spend buying the real estate into the market instead. 

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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Reality being, Okemo was pretty crowded to begin with. Stowe a little less so.
> 
> It’s quite a few years of “waiting and watching” when it comes to Stowe. Except the way things are changing, you may be waiting, but you’re not watching. Because whatever you think you’re seeing, it’s ready to change again!



Or just not interested in owning at Stowe? Not interested in a 5.5 hour drive each way?


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## abc (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Or just not interested in owning at Stowe? Not interested in a 5.5 hour drive each way?


Except you should. It’ll tell you a lot about the financial reality of mega-resorts, since you’re so convinced of their eventual demise.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the slopeside homes you see from the lifts at DV are fucking wild. like mark cuban richard branson jeff bezos fuckin wild.



Yes they are.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Why not do a seasonal rental vs buy?  I'm about 90% certain I'm renting a place up near Wildcat next season.  I can afford to buy, but I'm not sure we'd get the off season use out of it for it to make financial sense nor do I necessarily want to double my home ownership maintenance hassles at this time.  If Vail/Epic fs up Wildcat too bad, I can just switch to Cannon and rent or buy over there.  The place I'm looking at is $8k for 4 months.  To buy similar would be $225k.  Given my intended use model, the better investment is doing a rental and putting the remainder of what I'd spend buying the real estate into the market instead.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I hear you but I abhor the idea of renting. It's not my place but because of the investment for rent I feel stressed to use it as much as possible. I would probably feel the same stress to use any place I decided to buy. I'm still deciding if I really want to deal with that imperative to use a place I rent/own as much as possible. Frankly I like my current set up. We have already decided to keep our NY home, perhaps give it to our sons in trust. Then we could buy a NE home and claim that as our primary residence. And we could move between NY and NE easily.

I ski at K because I like the place and the drive from my home in NY is 3.5 hours. Perfect for 2 day overnights my wonderful wife allows me to indulge in. I do that 10 times a season and a few day trips to get 25 days out of my K pass. Hotels cost me about $1500 a season. I daytrip Belleayre or Gore for my other 25 days. Until my youngest is out of college in 2024 that won't change. 

I like the idea of having a home base in ski country, but it has to be on my terms. And as everyone notes in our current world everything is always changing and being disrupted. I'm not into that. So maybe buying at this time is not the right choice for us. So I keep watching and waiting.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I hear you but I abhor the idea of renting. It's not my place but because of the investment for rent I feel stressed to use it as much as possible. I would probably feel the same stress to use any place I decided to buy. I'm still deciding if I really want to deal with that imperative to use a place I rent/own as much as possible. Frankly I like my current set up. We have already decided to keep our NY home, perhaps give it to our sons in trust. Then we could buy a NE home and claim that as our primary residence. And we could move between NY and NE easily.
> 
> I ski at K because I like the place and the drive from my home in NY is 3.5 hours. Perfect for 2 day overnights my wonderful wife allows me to indulge in. I do that 10 times a season and a few day trips to get 25 days out of my K pass. Hotels cost me about $1500 a season. I daytrip Belleayre or Gore for my other 25 days. Until my youngest is out of college in 2024 that won't change.
> 
> I like the idea of having a home base in ski country, but it has to be on my terms. And as everyone notes in our current world everything is always changing and being disrupted. I'm not into that. So maybe buying at this time is not the right choice for us. So I keep watching and waiting.


I get all that.  For me the allure of a place near a ski area is all about simplification such that my downtime is more down with less stress. I work my tail off during the week in a very stressful job.  I travel a ton for work too.  So, weekend day trips even 90 minutes or less away, seems like a lot of work to get my kid on the hill.  That multiplies in 2-3 years when our daughter is ready to start. This week we are in Stowe for five days.  Massive production to get the family of four + dog all packed up and ready to go, Also took a bunch of research to find the exact right spot for the five of us.

A seasonal rental just seems so much easier to deal with.  I move in December 1st.  All the crap I went through to load up for five days here, I do one time and it lasts four months vs five days.  I just get in my car Friday afternoons with the family, drive two hours and arrive at a place I have everything set up and comfortable for an entire season.  If something breaks at the house during those 4 months, it's not my dime to fix it.   Rental term ends March 31, we pack up, move out and I don't have a care in the world about happens to the place all summer.  

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## Smellytele (Feb 26, 2020)

Used to seasonal rent before kids. With kids it would have been harder to get my money’s worth. They always had things going on. (Did brain wash them to hate basketball though). One had baseball practice/ workouts all winter, one played indoor soccer as well. Then as teenagers girls, jobs and friends got in the way. Day trips was what worked best. A few long weekends and February vaca (actually in Stowe this week with the wife and youngest. Also the middle one over the weekend.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 26, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> why havent they upgraded the toll house lift and put parking and ski school and etc down there? would be a great beginner's compound.




Shhhhh  Don't tell people about the ability to park down there


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## Hawk (Feb 26, 2020)

We rented for years.  17 at Sunday River and then 2 more at Sugarbush.  Then we bought. Both my wife and I ski about 50 days a year so in order to do that and not spend a sh*t ton of cash, we created and/or joined ski houses for the most part.  At SR it was ideal.  An old teacher/lobster man from RI bought up 2 or 3 farm houses near SR for investment and rented us one for cheap money.  We maximized the capacity in it ended up about $500-$600 a year and we had our own room.  Then we moved to Sugarbush and after 2 years we bough a condo in the $ 140K range.  Rolled the cost into our home mortgage and paid it off.  Now we enjoy ski in/ski out with a very short walk.  Our car does not move from Friday night until Sunday afternoon on any given weekend as long as there is snow.  We use the IKON at Killington, Sunday River and this year at Zermat.  It has already reached the cost effective point and any further visits will be gravy.  I think our model has given us stress free weekends and we maximize the fun factor.  We are now full fledged members of the community and love the valley as our second home.  One thing, we look at the VT condo as an investment because there is no way in hell we would ever retire to VT.  Just see other post for the entire tax conversation in VT.  Orca had beat that one up pretty good.


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## Hawk (Feb 26, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Shhhhh  Don't tell people about the ability to park down there



Toll House Lift: We did that a few times but it totally sucks in my opinion.  It opens at 9:00 if the attendant shows up on time and is slow ass.  It takes a good 1/2 hour to get up the lift and ski that flat trail over to the base.  No thanks.


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## kingslug (Feb 26, 2020)

Owning at Stowe so far has been great. Yes the 5 hour drive sucks Friday night but the payoff is worth it. I spent a lot of years skiing mostly Hunter with some trips to K and out West and Europe and rarely got up North much. Now skiing at SB , Stowe, Jay has made both of us better skiers. And we get a lot more days in. Summer is good up there as well..once you get past mud season. And our place has gone up in value. Her cousin owns a studio in Spruce and it went up 100K after he bought it. There wasn't a lot of places for sale under 300K when we looked and I think inventory is even lower now. So its looking like a good investment.


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## Smellytele (Feb 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Owning at Stowe so far has been great. Yes the 5 hour drive sucks Friday night but the payoff is worth it. I spent a lot of years skiing mostly Hunter with some trips to K and out West and Europe and rarely got up North much. Now skiing at SB , Stowe, Jay has made both of us better skiers. And we get a lot more days in. Summer is good up there as well..once you get past mud season. And our place has gone up in value. Her cousin owns a studio in Spruce and it went up 100K after he bought it. There wasn't a lot of places for sale under 300K when we looked and I think inventory is even lower now. So its looking like a good investment.



So you went from starter jackets and hockey jerseys to Bogner. [emoji3]


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## kingslug (Feb 26, 2020)

Absolutely.....
But I prefer Obermeyer...


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## abc (Feb 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Owning at Stowe so far has been great. Yes the 5 hour drive sucks Friday night but the payoff is worth it. I spent a lot of years skiing mostly Hunter with some trips to K and out West and Europe and rarely got up North much. Now skiing at SB , Stowe, Jay has made both of us better skiers. And we get a lot more days in. Summer is good up there as well..once you get past mud season. And our place has gone up in value. Her cousin owns a studio in Spruce and it went up 100K after he bought it. There wasn't a lot of places for sale under 300K when we looked and I think inventory is even lower now. So its looking like a good investment.


Precisely!

Property owners in the first northeast mega-resort aren't losing money because of it...yet  (or ever)

There're 2 major motivation for buying properties: 1) to use/enjoy, 2) hope for appreciation. Most people, of course, are hoping for both. But priorities differ on how big each factor is. 

With real estate the way they appreciated in the last couple decades, people got conditioned to expect big appreciation, and the enjoyment/use comes for free. Well, that may or may not last forever in an overall scene. But if you get enough enjoyment out of it, there's less expectation for huge appreciation. Less chance to be disappointed.


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## kingslug (Feb 26, 2020)

We bought it to use it..we could have bought near SB, much cheaper but no town to hang out in. We are thinking of getting both Epic and Ikon next year, makes sense as they are so close. 
on another note. A local at Hunter who works there is upset as all the affordable properties have been bought and turned into air B&B's which has made it very difficult for locals wanting to own a home. Its causing staffing problems.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2020)

abc said:


> There're 2 major motivation for buying properties: 1) to use/enjoy, 2) hope for appreciation. Most people, of course, are hoping for both. But priorities differ on how big each factor is.
> 
> With real estate the way they appreciated in the last couple decades, people got conditioned to expect big appreciation, and the enjoyment/use comes for free. Well, that may or may not last forever in an overall scene. But if you get enough enjoyment out of it, there's less expectation for huge appreciation. Less chance to be disappointed.



I've only had my condo for about 9 years now, but already have had a ton of enjoyment/use from it. I don't use it quite as much in the non-winter time as I'd like (too much other stuff going on usually), but I still like knowing it is there if I want to take a last minute drive up any time of the year. Summer and Fall are beautiful times in VT and I wish I could spend more time up there. A bit harder to justify a 5 hour drive though when there's no skiing!

As for appreciation, my condo wasn't super-expensive to begin with (only ~125k). I think there's in general somewhat of a lack of lower priced options, so I'm not overly concerned about it going down in value. More expensive ones could be an issue (mainly because I think a lot of them were over-priced to begin with). If mine goes up over time, great. If it stays the same, fine as well. If it goes down a little, I'll still have had years of use out of it so I'm not going to be too concerned about it.


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## EPB (Feb 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> on another note. A local at Hunter who works there is upset as all the affordable properties have been bought and turned into air B&B's which has made it very difficult for locals wanting to own a home. Its causing staffing problems.



I think that's a bubble waiting to burst across not just ski country, but anywhere people vacation. One can justify paying X for a second home as long as they can rent it out like it's 2020 and it's been 12 years since the last recession. 

We'll see how many people can't afford their places when they're rented out half as much as anticipated soon enough.

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## drjeff (Feb 26, 2020)

abc said:


> Precisely!
> 
> Property owners in the first northeast mega-resort aren't losing money because of it...yet  (or ever)
> 
> ...



My wife and I bought almost 14 years ago now, off the pre financial crisis peak prices, but still ultimately saw about a 30% decrease at one point about 10 years ago over where we bought it. Just about back to the original purchase price now based on what comparable units are currently listing for/selling the last few months.

We bought it with the intent to use and enjoy, and have done exactly that with it ever since, the equity side of it, while nice, has never really been a consideration/driving force behind our decision to buy. Just a way to allow our family to enjoy the ski lifestyle as well as the non ski season mountain lifestyle that my wife and I both loved and now are kids do as well.

Never rented ours. No current intention of doing so. And per our most recent annual association meeting this past Columbus Day weekend, based on owner reported stats, out of the roughly 210 units in our complex less than 50 of them are in some type of rental situation (either short or long term) with actually more long term rentals being in the Summer months than in the winter months. And off the top of my head, none of the group of 12 other families that my family regularly associates with who also own in the same complex that we do, do any type of rentals with their condo either. All for personal enjoyment purposes, all bought at various times between 25 and 2 years ago


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 26, 2020)

abc said:


> *With real estate the way they appreciated in the last couple decades, people got conditioned to expect big appreciation, and the enjoyment/use comes for free. Well, that may or may not last forever*



It wont.  Cant actually.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> we could have bought near SB, much cheaper but no town to hang out in.



No town to hang out in? That's news to me (and I'm sure others that hang out a lot in the MRV)


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## machski (Feb 26, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, if you paid for the Stowe or Deer Valley experience, and now those brands are equated with cheap EPIC/IKON, then you've lost the value for your property.
> 
> IKON and EPIC do not equate to high value clientele, not even in the rental market.


Aspen, DV and to some extent Stowe are extreme examples at the ultra posh end.  I get those folks are probably upset their private digs have been eroded.  Given the $$ DV and Aspen command, maybe they should have gone Yellowstone club to begin with instead of a public Access resort.  

I would argue it's not fair to lump that ultra high end in with the vast majority of more midstream property owners.  I doubt many of those are having mega pass anxiety, probably just the opposite.  Especially if they rent out when not using, I'm sure they can command more or at the least find it easier to fill more often.

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## mbedle (Feb 26, 2020)

I know this has been thrown around a couple of times and I've heard different stories, but based on tax parcel records, Vail did not purchase the toll house base area from Mt. Mansfield Co. So I am thinking that moving any ski school activities down there would not be possible. Assuming that Mansfield keep it for development rights.


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## 1dog (Feb 26, 2020)

CD,

It sux in MRV - lets keep that thought going ok? Really, nothing to see or do here folks - go to K-Mart or $$towe. . . . 


as for recessions  - they come and go - over due for sure - but places with 30K-40K beds get hit hardest and 1st. . . .  as mentioned, nothing to see in Bush country. . . . 


assets inflated by low rates will stick around for a longer time that anyone ( inlcuding me) predicted - we still have the highest T bills in the industrialised world a 2% or less. . .  and less risk than other markets. . . .  and when we go - thats it for the worlds economy. . . .lower RE values will be the lest of our problems . . . . .


2.875% on my mortgage. after inflation and taxes thats essentially free money.


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## JimG. (Feb 26, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I get all that.  For me the allure of a place near a ski area is all about simplification such that my downtime is more down with less stress. I work my tail off during the week in a very stressful job.  I travel a ton for work too.  So, weekend day trips even 90 minutes or less away, seems like a lot of work to get my kid on the hill.  That multiplies in 2-3 years when our daughter is ready to start. This week we are in Stowe for five days.  Massive production to get the family of four + dog all packed up and ready to go, Also took a bunch of research to find the exact right spot for the five of us.
> 
> A seasonal rental just seems so much easier to deal with.  I move in December 1st.  All the crap I went through to load up for five days here, I do one time and it lasts four months vs five days.  I just get in my car Friday afternoons with the family, drive two hours and arrive at a place I have everything set up and comfortable for an entire season.  If something breaks at the house during those 4 months, it's not my dime to fix it.   Rental term ends March 31, we pack up, move out and I don't have a care in the world about happens to the place all summer.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I hear you and I'm glad those days of having 3 young children are long gone for us. Being a ski dad is a lot of work and little relaxation. 

So any purchase would be a retirement home for my wife and I. She loves the mountains in NH but isn't a skier. That doesn't make her try to keep me from skiing which gives us both some personal time. And she will enjoy all the other activities in the Whites. 

But we will honestly be just as happy staying put in NY and I'll be very content to continue my current skiing agenda. And we would spend at least 6 months a year in NY anyway and would be there more if we didn't need to spend 6 months at a ski home to make it our primary residence.

So as I write more I realize that maybe the $250,000 I'm budgeting for a ski home may turn out to be the Corvette I've always wanted and $150,000 or so saved in the bank. Or maybe I will rent places for 8-10K per season like you are thinking. Like I said, it's going to be on my terms.


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## JimG. (Feb 26, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I think that's a bubble waiting to burst across not just ski country, but anywhere people vacation. One can justify paying X for a second home as long as they can rent it out like it's 2020 and it's been 12 years since the last recession.
> 
> We'll see how many people can't afford their places when they're rented out half as much as anticipated soon enough.



I would only buy a ski house for personal use and enjoyment. I have no desire to be a landlord or to allow other people to live in my personal space. I buy properties to live in, not as an investment.


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## EPB (Feb 26, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I would only buy a ski house for personal use and enjoyment. I have no desire to be a landlord or to allow other people to live in my personal space. I buy properties to live in, not as an investment.


It's not my cup of tea either. I'm a decade off from it (yes, I'm a millennial), but my philosophy is that one really shouldn't buy a second home they can't afford to pay for without rental income. More power to those who want to defray costs by using Airbnb, but it's a risky proposition to expect the property's likely inflated 2019 rental income to pay the bills.

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## kingslug (Feb 26, 2020)

We rent it out once in a while..no issues so far.


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## abc (Feb 26, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> my philosophy is that one really shouldn't buy a second home they can't afford to pay for without rental income. More power to those who want to defray costs by using Airbnb, but it's a risky proposition to expect the property's likely inflated 2019 rental income to pay the bills.


People don't start out wanting to be landlords. Hell, many people shudder at the thought of strangers invading their pride and joy. 

But once you're in the hunt for a property, the realtors really get under your skin! 

They do their best to paint the rosiest picture. Naturally, that includes renting your home every weekend you're not using it! Suddenly, your x dollar budget got inflated to 2x because... the house is so much bigger and nicer. "and you can afford it by renting it out"! :roll:

That's how some ended up with properties they can't afford without the rental income. More expensive property also carry a bigger tax burden too. They're the most vulnerable to economic hiccups.

(Even as "experienced" house hunters many here are, I know it happens exactly the same way! It's only after you got back home you slap yourself in the head realizing all that rosy picture was just fantasy. Then you get back on track sticking to your budget. But it's so easy to get "talked" into more than your can afford, TOO EASY!)


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's not my cup of tea either. I'm a decade off from it (yes, I'm a millennial), but my philosophy is that one really shouldn't buy a second home they can't afford to pay for without rental income. More power to those who want to defray costs by using Airbnb, but it's a risky proposition to expect the property's likely inflated 2019 rental income to pay the bills.



I agree with this philosophy as well. If you are depending on rental income to be able to afford it, that's definitely a lot of risk. I'm the type of person that absolutely hates having debt or loans and if I needed to rely on rental income to afford a vacation home I'd probably lose some sleep at night worrying about what happens if it didn't pull in the amount of rent you expected.

Personally I "rent" my condo out 1 weekend a year to a family member that I fully trust. That's it.


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## cdskier (Feb 26, 2020)

abc said:


> People don't start out wanting to be landlords. Hell, many people shudder at the thought of strangers invading their pride and joy.
> 
> But once you're in the hunt for a property, the realtors really get under your skin!
> 
> They do their best to paint the rosiest picture. Naturally, that includes renting your home every weekend you're not using it! Suddenly, your x dollar budget got inflated to 2x because... the house is so much bigger and nicer. "and you can afford it by renting it out"! :roll:



You're right about that. Even when I was buying my condo the realtor was trying to really talk up the rental potential. I still set my budget based on what I believed I could safely afford with no rental income at all and I stuck with it. (For fun I did run numbers using potential rental income too, but that was more to show how much "less" it would cost me per month rather than how much "more" I could go up in budget if I decided to try renting.) In retrospect, even without rental income I certainly could have gone for something "bigger and better", but I love the place I bought and am perfectly happy with it. No regrets with my decision.


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## kingslug (Feb 26, 2020)

We first looked at a house..it needed repairs and was on a very weird property..NG
Next was 2 large condo under construction..really large. Well..you could rent it out and use the finished basement..um...no...no living in a basement..its a basement.
Oh..then an original house..really original..interesting but no.
The last one was a 2 bed condo right behind Sushi Oshi..11 units furnished..real nice but a little small. I didn't like it..then we thought about it and it was perfect. And so its been.


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## Zermatt (Feb 27, 2020)

New Ikon Passes are up.  $899 for renewals (decrease from last season).  Haven't looked through all the resorts yet, but looks to be about the same......

Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.


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## drjeff (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> New Ikon Passes are up.  $899 for renewals (decrease from last season).  Haven't looked through all the resorts yet, but looks to be about the same......


Unlimited days now for Sugarbush, and it appears that the resorts with limited days are now all 7 days and not 5...

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## Zermatt (Feb 27, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Unlimited days now for Sugarbush, and it appears that the resorts with limited days are now all 7 days and not 5...
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



I don't follow that....

Jackson and Aspen are gone from the Base Pass, it's an add on now.


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## boston_e (Feb 27, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Unlimited days now for Sugarbush, and it appears that the resorts with limited days are now all 7 days and not 5...
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



They were always 7 for the “full” pass and 5 for the “base” pass.


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## Zermatt (Feb 27, 2020)

boston_e said:


> They were always 7 for the “full” pass and 5 for the “base” pass.



Agreed.  That's why I didn't follow.

I started a new 20/21 thread for Super Passes.


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## drjeff (Feb 27, 2020)

boston_e said:


> They were always 7 for the “full” pass and 5 for the “base” pass.



My bad with my quick scanning prior to my morning caffeine infusion!


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> New Ikon Passes are up.  $899 for renewals (decrease from last season).  Haven't looked through all the resorts yet, but looks to be about the same......
> 
> Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.



Oh no.  Gonna have to start being a mid-week skier.


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## Edd (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.



That’s gonna be interesting.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> Unlimited at Sugarbush.



R.I.P. Sugarbush


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

Win, what will be the procedure for current Sugarbush pass holders?  I assume we will have to come in and get new media?  Also what about resort charge? other programs like early ups, boomer, etc?


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Win, what will be the procedure for current Sugarbush pass holders?  I assume we will have to come in and get new media?  Also what about resort charge? other programs like early ups, boomer, etc?



We are putting out detailed info later this morning. Yes, you will need new media but that can be mailed to you. Yes to resort charge and  Early-up. Most of our local products like Boomer, Value and young adults 13-29 will also be offered. 

Few today ski the full 5 or 7 days so unlimited will be mostly for the already dedicated Sugarbush passholders in my opinion. 

In the meantime about 4-5” so far.


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## tumbler (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> R.I.P. Sugarbush


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> Few today ski the full 5 or 7 days so *unlimited will be mostly for the already dedicated Sugarbush passholders in my opinion. *



I dont think that's a very mathematically sound opinion.

  For starters, the Sugarbush acquisition date by Alterra was well after the IKON purchase decision was made for the 2019-2020 ski season & wasnt unlimited.  Secondly, we know IKON is still aggressively & impressively ramping.  I could go on here in spades, but those two facts should speak well enough for those with decent prognosticative abilities to know Sugarbush will be a ****show next year.


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont think that's a very mathematically sound opinion.
> 
> For starters, the Sugarbush acquisition date by Alterra was well after the IKON purchase decision was made for the 2019-2020 ski season & wasnt unlimited.  Secondly, we know IKON is still aggressively & impressively ramping.  I could go on here in spades, but those two facts should speak well enough for those with decent prognosticative abilities to know Sugarbush will be a ****show next year.



I'm buying a pass shitshow or not and it will be the same or less than I spent last year with more benefits.  But keep it up Benedict.  Maybe you will keep the crowds down.  ;-)


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## teleo (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.



[emoji26][emoji22][emoji23][emoji31]


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## WinS (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont think that's a very mathematically sound opinion.
> 
> For starters, the Sugarbush acquisition date by Alterra was well after the IKON purchase decision was made for the 2019-2020 ski season & wasnt unlimited.  Secondly, we know IKON is still aggressively & impressively ramping.  I could go on here in spades, but those two facts should speak well enough for those with decent prognosticative abilities to know Sugarbush will be a ****show next year.



I respectfully disagree. This is our second year of partnering and accepting Ikon passes, so I think we know how it is actually used.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> Few today ski the full 5 or 7 days so unlimited will be mostly for the already dedicated Sugarbush passholders in my opinion.


I'm not sure that translates. 

With limited days, whether it's 5 or 7, people are "saving" the days for when condition are good. Some never used them fully because other things intrude. 

But with unlimited, there will be more people coming in on weekends, powder or ice. 

We'll see. Not sounding like you guys have a choice though.


p.S.

It's always my plan to buy 20/21 Ikon the moment it's available and immediately start using it. So with Sugarbush on "unlimited" this year, I have both Stratton and the Bush all the way through the end of the northeast season.


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## AdironRider (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I'm buying a pass shitshow or not and it will be the same or less than I spent last year with more benefits.  But keep it up Benedict.  Maybe you will keep the crowds down.  ;-)



Or you could listen to Trailboss and I, who only had to deal with limited day access from IKON which still resulted in massive crowding, and realize you need to be very careful what you wish for.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> It will be interesting to see how only top tier pass access affects Jackson. Basically makes it a 200 add on for your Jackson trip.


I think most who wants to ski Jackson will go to full pass. You get to ski on blackout days too. 

(I've been only getting the blackout pass in both Ikon and Epic, because I THOUGHT holidays were too crowded for my taste anyway. But reports from across all mountains indicates holiday crowds were GONE because everybody is blacked out. So, I'm planning to cough up the extra $ to get to ski the quiet mountains on holidays -- primarily Christmas/New Year, getting Aspen and JH as part of the package too)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

WinS said:


> I respectfully disagree. *This is our second year of partnering and accepting Ikon passes*, so I think *we know how it is actually used.*



What is your current YoY increase in IKON swipes on a percent basis?


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> New Ikon Passes are up.  $899 for renewals (decrease from last season).  Haven't looked through all the resorts yet, but looks to be about the same......
> 
> Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.



No surprise at all that SB is unlimited.  They needed another unlimited option in Vermont and one to go head-to-head with Stowe.  As to crowds, I will wait to hear how it goes.  Unless every skier and rider in Vermont and the Boston and NYC metro areas goes IKON then I think the uptick will be slight, but honestly I don't know what's going on there.  

As said by others, be careful what you wish for.  The biggest difference though is that there aren't 2 million people right on SB's doorstep.


----------



## AdironRider (Feb 27, 2020)

Ikon has brought hoards of cheap beaters who don't spend money except to park. I'm not confident enough to say this will fix the problem though.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> What is your current YoY increase in IKON swipes on a percent basis?



I'd be interested to know as well, but not at all surprised if such info is proprietary and not available to the public.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

billo said:


> New Ikon Passes are up.  $899 for renewals (decrease from last season).  Haven't looked through all the resorts yet, but looks to be about the same......
> 
> Whoa! Unlimited at Sugarbush.



At first glance, I did not see Alta/Snowbird in the list.  But it is there.  No changes at all despite the traffic and crowding problems.  Talk about completely tone-deaf.  What B.S.


----------



## 1dog (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I'm buying a pass shitshow or not and it will be the same or less than I spent last year with more benefits.  But keep it up Benedict.  Maybe you will keep the crowds down.  ;-)



Yup, second the Hawk concept,all rain, stay away - south is snow. . . . 

IMG_20200227_110800619.jpg

IMG_20200227_110800619.jpg


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

It is what it is.  Win no longer owns and the pricing structure and terms are what IKON says it is.  I will not like it if the lines grow to record proportions but that is not going to stop me from buying the pass or going to the Mad River Valley.  All this dooms day talk it non-productive as far as I am concern.  The funny thing is the people who are the most upset aside from a few are the people that only come here on day trips and every now and then.  The one thing that this will absolutely not affect is all the other reasons I come to the MRV the rest of the year.  This will not ruin it for me.  I am sure about that.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The one thing that this will absolutely not affect is all the other reasons I come to the MRV the rest of the year.  This will not ruin it for me.  I am sure about that.



Amen to that. Also if the downside to this is that this increases business and employment opportunities for people in the Valley, then I think i'm okay with that.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

Hawk said:


> It is what it is.  Win no longer owns and the pricing structure and terms are what IKON says it is.  I will not like it if the lines grow to record proportions but that is not going to stop me from buying the pass or going to the Mad River Valley.  All this dooms day talk it non-productive as far as I am concern.  The funny thing is the people who are the most upset aside from a few are the people that only come here on day trips and every now and then.  The one thing that this will absolutely not affect is all the other reasons I come to the MRV the rest of the year.  This will not ruin it for me.  I am sure about that.



I think "wait and see" is appropriate.  Again, SB doesn't have 2 million people on its doorstep, so the impact will probably be relatively minimal.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 27, 2020)

Add me to the list of people who will go there more...it has more interesting terrain than Stowe..and handles crowds better..not that I'm not going to Stowe...


----------



## 1dog (Feb 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I think "wait and see" is appropriate.  Again, SB doesn't have 2 million people on its doorstep, so the impact will probably be relatively minimal.



The point of SLC being right there - akin to Blue Hills ( 10 miles or less from downtown Boston) being LCC and the city can not only drive/bus/uber there in 20 mins or less, but they can also SEE the peaks - man, I love LCC and even BCC, but gotta agree, MRV is a different animal all together. 

I skinned Superior once - I;d say it would be a better option more often but the valid point of many here is  - YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO GET UP TO THE BASE - never mind hike/skin/ski it.

My long time friend moved to PC in 1990 - built two houses there -rode market up, finally sold and moved to Powder. . . . . and that is only a matter of time. . . .


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Add me to the list of people who will go there more...it has more interesting terrain than Stowe..and handles crowds better..not that I'm not going to Stowe...


I'm actually a bit surprised Stowe is so mobbed this year. With all the other Peak resorts, I would have thought skier traffic would be a bit better dispersed. 

I mean, I've not made it to Stowe this season yet. I've been going to Wildcat instead (and gone to Attitash and Sunapee once each just for kicks)

But perhaps a lot of the new Peak-to-Epic people are trying Stowe for the first time?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> *I'd be interested to know as well*, but not at all surprised if such info is proprietary and not available to the public.



I find it hard to believe the current YoY increase at Sugarbush isn't impressive given the growth in IKON sales volume which is already (somewhat) publicly known.

   And if it is significant for a very *immature product* for which we already know is still real world ramping at an aggressive growth rate, then I have no idea how WinS can say that next year the increase at Sugarbush wont be that large.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

1dog said:


> The point of SLC being right there - akin to Blue Hills ( 10 miles or less from downtown Boston) being LCC and the city can not only drive/bus/uber there in 20 mins or less, but they can also SEE the peaks - man, I love LCC and even BCC, but gotta agree, MRV is a different animal all together.
> 
> I skinned Superior once - I;d say it would be a better option more often but the valid point of many here is  - YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO GET UP TO THE BASE - never mind hike/skin/ski it.
> 
> My long time friend moved to PC in 1990 - built two houses there -rode market up, finally sold and moved to Powder. . . . . and that is only a matter of time. . . .



Agreed.  

And Powder has been surprisingly slow in implementing their crazy ideas, but I know that folks are now noticing the huge houses up there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

abc said:


> I'm actually a bit surprised Stowe is so mobbed this year. With all the other Peak resorts, I would have thought skier traffic would be a bit better dispersed.
> 
> I mean, I've not made it to Stowe this season yet. I've been going to Wildcat instead (and gone to Attitash and Sunapee once each just for kicks)
> 
> But perhaps a lot of the new Peak-to-Epic people are trying Stowe for the first time?



I'm not.  As we've discussed ad nauseum in another thread, when a premium product suddenly is made available to the masses it changes.  Stowe was forever a premium product and now it is open to the masses.  It's not that hard to understand.


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## AdironRider (Feb 27, 2020)

No one in their right mind is going to ski Crotched when they can ski Stowe for the same price, regardless of drive time.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> No one in their right mind is going to ski Crotched when they can ski Stowe for the same price, regardless of drive time.



Exactly.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> And *Powder has been surprisingly slow in implementing their crazy ideas, but I know that folks are now noticing the huge houses up there.*



They're ugly as crap houses based on uber-modern designs that stick out like a grotesque sore thumb in the beautiful Utah countryside.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> They're ugly as crap houses based on uber-modern designs that stick out like a grotesque sore thumb in the beautiful Utah countryside.



And in about 3-5 years will be leaking and having problems being on the top of a mountain vs. being in Southern California.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> No one in their right mind is going to ski Crotched when they can ski Stowe for the same price, regardless of drive time.


But it's not "the same price". Stowe is a lot more costly to stay overnight. Crotched is day trip-able for many. And Wildcat and Attitash are also a lot "cheaper" to spend a Saturday night.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

abc said:


> But it's not "the same price". Stowe is a lot more costly to stay overnight. Crotched is day trip-able for many. And Wildcat and Attitash are also a lot "cheaper" to spend a Saturday night.



The terrain is nowhere close.  That is what AR is saying.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> The terrain is nowhere close.  That is what AR is saying.


For the minorities like us, yes. 

For the average skiers, Stowe is "premium" for a premium price.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2020)

abc said:


> For the average skiers, Stowe is "premium" for a premium price.



Not anymore!


----------



## kingslug (Feb 27, 2020)

Well...Stowe really has only 2 main lifts, the slow double makes 3..  The triple only good when the others are down but its a bit useless..SB has 10. Only benefit with Stowe is if your skiing with people on different runs its a hell of a lot easier to meet back up. SB...good luck.


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

This year at sugarbush has been a little busier at the peak times but you also have to remember that the woods and Castlerock and the slidebrook lift did not come into full swing until 2 weeks ago with the storm.  Those areas actually slow down the downhill part of the lift line equation making the lines better.   It actually has not been all that bad this year.  Once we see what next year brings we can all have this conversation again.  I am sure we will.  ;-)


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## Hawk (Feb 27, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Well...Stowe really has only 2 main lifts, the slow double makes 3..  The triple only good when the others are down but its a bit useless..SB has 10. Only benefit with Stowe is if your skiing with people on different runs its a hell of a lot easier to meet back up. SB...good luck.



Stowe is 2000' vert every run if you ski the quad or the gondi.  That is what I like about that mountain.  Good long runs.  I get the Ski-VT four pack specifically to ski Stowe.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2020)

lol. i liked a lot of the houses on mountain at pow mow. very modern/scandinavian. def not traditional, but i dont think they were ugly. only ugly in that they are incomplete construction sites.


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## kingslug (Feb 27, 2020)

Thats the part I like about it..long runs. SB is like Killington..the Mountain is cut in half but disperses the crowds. Wandering around SB is fun, all the little connectors that get bumped up..Then of course CR is a place unto itself. Its totally different than Stowe which is why most of my EC season will be spent between the two...with some time up at Jay and Hunter.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Not anymore!


You missed my point. 

While the lift ticket is "free", lodging isn't. That, is definitely *premium*!


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## AdironRider (Feb 27, 2020)

What are you talking about? You can stay in Stowe directly for under 100 bucks.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 27, 2020)

ya, plenty of cheap lodging in stowe. more there than the MRV. the stowe motel/snowdrift, the stowe inn, super cheap and not totally awful places. 

and in jackson i dunno who the heck was sleeping in their subarus, bc town is full of budget minded hotels like the antler inn.


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## Zand (Feb 27, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, plenty of cheap lodging in stowe. more there than the MRV. the stowe motel/snowdrift, the stowe inn, super cheap and not totally awful places.
> 
> and in jackson i dunno who the heck was sleeping in their subarus, bc town is full of budget minded hotels like the antler inn.



Yup. Stayed at the Snowdrift for $70 a night for a studio last year. Good luck getting a closet in the MRV under $120.


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## abc (Feb 27, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> and in jackson i dunno who the heck was sleeping in their subarus, bc town is full of budget minded hotels like the antler inn.


"Budget" for you and me, the Antler apparently were too costly for the CO/UT skiers. 

I don't know how much of that was true. Or perhaps the locals made that up. But that's what the residents were bitching about. I'm inclined to believe them. Why? I had no trouble finding rooms for the night, but I had a heck of a hard time finding parking in the carpool lot! Where did all the skiers on the mountain coming from if not the back of their Subaru? 

Unless of course, the JH management was right all along, those extra skiers were locals (who don't need motel rooms)! 

I don't know if it's still that way, but last year, motel prices didn't go up despite all the extra UT/CO plates clogging up the highway all the way back to the village. How could that be possible?


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## mbedle (Feb 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> They're ugly as crap houses based on uber-modern designs that stick out like a grotesque sore thumb in the beautiful Utah countryside.



LOL - soooooo true..


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## fdskier56 (Feb 27, 2020)

I’ve been lurking in this thread for a while.
I’m headed to Jackson mid March for first time in 10 years.
Was my annual trip for about 10 years, usually 10-14 days each.
I’m curious how different it will look. I know the base has changed..

Anyway- a place like Jackson, not many day trippers-
I wonder if hotel occupancy shows significant increase since ikon?
Local Jackson chamber of commerce type orgs ever release data?

And I guess a real good indicator of ikon increases might be
the mountain sees a huge drop in day ticket or 3day ticket sales 
But all these people are still skiing at their mountain


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## jaywbigred (Feb 27, 2020)

Well, I took an "hour" out of my day to scan this thread from start to finish. Some interesting stuff.

I will say that in my 10th year of condo ownership at Mt. Snow, the crowds have grown and grown, but this year seems otherworldly. Not that they were short before on a decent weather weekend, but they certainly feel longer post-EPIC, especially given the overall staffing issues that have resulted in downtime on other lifts that normally would provide some line relief. The flipside of that has been a somewhat noticeable decrease in on-trail traffic, especially on the trails that are not the main thoroughfares. 

With my EPIC pass in hand, I did, in fact, head out West for the first time in 6 years. We used to go out West 1-2 times every year, but then we started having kids. This year was my 40th birthday, so that, combined with the EPIC pass, combined with my wife neither being pregnant nor breastfeeding (and the kids being old enough to stay with grandparents) made this year a good year to head west again. We def. let EPIC steer us on where to go; we also used the feeling that our ski days were "free" because of the pass to justify spending some extra dollars on 2 days of cat skiing. So, the EPIC pass is influencing our behavior, although maybe not driving it.

Perhaps because I did not read this thread, I was quite surprised that the lines at PCMR were so EPIC. I guess I had figured (wrongly) in my head that the line issue was a Mt. Snow/smaller east coast problem, and that the large west coast resorts could handle any increased volume they might experience from the passes. I guess my experience with long lines on non-powder days at PCMR as well as all the viral photos from Vail and the posts in this thread prove that wrong.

In any event, I do hope some kind of stasis is reached. The megapasses are still relatively new and as an industry disrupter, still in the middle of their disrupting. But perhaps it will work itself out eventually and the ridonkulous lines will settle a bit. Otherwise, my little IPA-baby might benefit from me learning to skin uphill. Hmmm.


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## Zermatt (Feb 29, 2020)

Why is it mainly Vail and Solitude where we consistently see absurd life line? What about the other Colorado front range resorts? Are Copper and Breck overwhelmed on the weekends? They just don't seem to produce the same horror stories.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 29, 2020)

billo said:


> Why is it mainly Vail and Solitude where we consistently see absurd life line? What about the other Colorado front range resorts? Are Copper and Breck overwhelmed on the weekends? They just don't seem to produce the same horror stories.



Vail is Vail, it's the Vail Resorts flagship, which has gotten crazy post EPIC.

Solitude's explanation is easier; it's the only IKON unlimited option sitting right on top of > 1M people.    I've only been there once, 4 years ago, and the local "brag" was how it never gets crowded & it's a great place for families & learning. Sure seemed that way, I think it would have been a great place to raise ski kids, but not so much anymore I guess.  I liked Solitude, but honestly if it really is crowded now I'd simply pass. For that area it's just not good enough versus numerous competitors to deal with any form of crowding, let alone major crowding.


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## jaytrem (Feb 29, 2020)

billo said:


> Why is it mainly Vail and Solitude where we consistently see absurd life line? What about the other Colorado front range resorts? Are Copper and Breck overwhelmed on the weekends? They just don't seem to produce the same horror stories.



Only a 1 day sample, but Copper lines were very short to non-existant on the Sunday after MLK.  Weather was beautiful tjat day.  We went ride the bubble and Chodola at peak time mainly to see how crowded it would be.  Some guys did tell there were a lot more people there during MLK weekend, but still not too bad.


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## abc (Feb 29, 2020)

I don’t know about Solitude. When I was there (weekend), there was no line. Even though parking was full. 

Vail has far fewer lifts compare to Copper if you consider the terrain it serves. There are a couple of key lifts in the back bowl that you can’t bypass.


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## machski (Feb 29, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Only a 1 day sample, but Copper lines were very short to non-existant on the Sunday after MLK.  Weather was beautiful tjat day.  We went ride the bubble and Chodola at peak time mainly to see how crowded it would be.  Some guys did tell there were a lot more people there during MLK weekend, but still not too bad.


Was at Copper President's Day Saturday in a decent sized snow storm.  Started at Super Bee, was crowded but not horrendous by any stretch.  Did not venture to Eagle or Flyer, likely crazier.  3 Bears never opened due to wind and storm, so stayed on Resolution and Alpine mostly.  Lines weren't bad and powder, especially in the trees, was plentiful.  Snow may have kept some crowds down due to fear of I70 parking lot.  Thought lines at Steamboat the previous Saturday were worse, at least to start the day out of the one base they have.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Mar 3, 2020)

fdskier56 said:


> I’ve been lurking in this thread for a while.
> I’m headed to Jackson mid March for first time in 10 years.
> Was my annual trip for about 10 years, usually 10-14 days each.
> I’m curious how different it will look. I know the base has changed..
> ...



I was up in Jackson, WY last week.  Skied Tues & Thurs at JH and Fri at Grand Targhee.  JH crowds weren't too bad.  The tram is always very popular.  I rode it three times in two days, with waits of 40 mins, 25 mins, and 10 mins.  The shortest wait was when I caught a late ride at 3:50 PM (last tram that day).  All the chairs on the mtn were not very crowded during my visit (1-5 min waits).  I did not ski on Wed and my friends said that was the lightest day of the week, so if you take a rest day don't take it on Wed:razz:
I visited JH in 2015 and 2018 and it was busier those two visits than last week, but I have no explanation for that because by all reports JH keeps getting busier and busier each year under IKON/MCP.
Last Friday I went to Grand Targhee on a beautiful sunny day.  First time for me there and one of the most enjoyable and memorable ski days in recent years.  The contrast with JH is stark.  Much less trail traffic, nice mom & pop vibe.  What you give up in gnar, you gain with friendlier snow conditions and even better scenery.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but I got a last minute, seven day rate at the remodeled Motel 6 in Jackson that was the cheapest I've paid for a ski trip since I didn't have gray hair:sad:


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## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

jimk said:


> I visited JH in 2015 and 2018 and it was busier those two visits than last week, but I have no explanation for that because by all reports JH keeps getting busier and busier each year under IKON/MCP.


JH had always been busy on weekends, especially when there's new snow. (so is Big Sky, btw) A lot of visitors who ski JH 1 week pre-Ikon/MCP only remember those quiet mid-week days. I've skied JH on holiday period. It was definitely busy even "back then".  

There's definitely EVEN MORE people post IKON, particularly on weekends. Locals who have to work during the week will understandably upset with the big increase of traffic on weekends.

With the change of IKON pass next season, it'll be interesting to see how it will be.


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## AdironRider (Mar 3, 2020)

A 40 minute wait for the tram, on a refreeze, basically spring, midweek day is absurd. 

Jackson has increased its skier visits almost 40% in two years. Your memories are wrong.

5 tram wait at 8:30am this past Sunday. It was almost 8 by the time the mountain opened. That is an hour and a half wait.


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## machski (Mar 3, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> A 40 minute wait for the tram, on a refreeze, basically spring, midweek day is absurd.
> 
> Jackson has increased its skier visits almost 40% in two years. Your memories are wrong.
> 
> 5 tram wait at 8:30am this past Sunday. It was almost 8 by the time the mountain opened. That is an hour and a half wait.


Unfortunately, Trams are not high capacity lifts even if you can stuff over a hundred people in a box at a time.  And unfortunately, it's the only way to the very top so it more than likely draws big crowds for first runs.  I feel for you, but again I circle back to the fact that JHMR (and Snowbird for that matter) have put a ton of capital investments in over the last decade.  The resorts didn't do this just to please the few of you who have been or are now "locals.". That wouldn't produce the ROI they are looking for.  So the fact they have done these investments publicized those investments and happen to be many skier and rider's top destination "proving grounds" didn't have anything to do at all with attracting people to the mountain.  The fact JHMR has had some of the best snow in the country the last 2 seasons hasn't helped your situation either as that is increasing folks wanting to hit their "dream" mountain when it is good as well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Mar 3, 2020)

I defer about crowds to AdironRider as a local at JHMR.  But all I know is last week wasn't too bad.  My visits in 15 and 18 are very anecdotal memories, but they were weekdays around same time (late Feb/early Mar) and many chairs had significant lines those visits.  Not so last week.  Last Monday 2/24 was a 6" new snow day, about 2" wind drift on Tuesday at JHMR.

BTW, all skiing is great skiing.  I've been skiing Snowbird quite a bit the last month.  There have been a couple 45 min drives up the canyon.  But maybe only one day worse than that and I went elsewhere.
This thread needs some photos:razz:
Grand Targhee


Jackson Hole


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## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

*jimk*, you definitely have selective memory filtered by rose colored lens, I'm afraid.

Targhee in clear weather? That's exceptional. It's not called the Grand Foggy for no reason!


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## kingslug (Mar 3, 2020)

Ive been there 3 times and have no idea what it looks like.


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## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Ive been there 3 times and have no idea what it looks like.


Only twice. No idea what it looks like either.


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## jaytrem (Mar 3, 2020)

abc said:


> Only twice. No idea what it looks like either.



I guess I lucked out with a blue bird day there.  But I've been to Big White (aka Big Whiteout)  3 different years and still have no clue what the top of the moutain looks like.


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## pauldotcom (Mar 3, 2020)

In a strong economy, of course lines are going to be worse.


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## chuckstah (Mar 3, 2020)

abc said:


> Only twice. No idea what it looks like either.


3 days for me. 3 feet of snow the first, and then bluebird the following 2. Great mountain. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Mar 4, 2020)

Great article here on A-Basin and how its jump from unlimited Epic to partner Ikon has changed its skier days make-up.    Sounds like they have really seen a reduction in skier days using Ikon 7/5(with blackout) structure vs unlimited Epic.

https://www.summitdaily.com/news/ar...-visits-are-down-35-after-ditching-epic-pass/

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 5, 2020)

Here is a direct Link to Al's blog at ABasin.  Very informative. 

http://arapahoebasin.blogspot.com/2020/03/state-of-basin-numbers-and-comments.html


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## abc (Mar 6, 2020)

machski said:


> Great article here on A-Basin and how its jump from unlimited Epic to partner Ikon has changed its skier days make-up.    Sounds like they have really seen a reduction in skier days using Ikon 7/5(with blackout) structure vs unlimited Epic.
> 
> https://www.summitdaily.com/news/ar...-visits-are-down-35-after-ditching-epic-pass/
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


Does that means Sugarbush will see the exact opposite when it goes to unlimited next year?


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## Edd (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Does that means Sugarbush will see the exact opposite when it goes to unlimited next year?



Well, Sugarbush will be unlimited so I highly doubt that will be the result.

Edit: Read your post wrong, I think. Yeah, of course they’ll get slammed.


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2020)

Megapasses rock!


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## ScottySkis (Mar 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Megapasses rock!



Lol


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## WinS (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Does that means Sugarbush will see the exact opposite when it goes to unlimited next year?



I do not think any of us yet fully understands what is occurring as more people buy a multi-resort pass instead of day tickets. We have been seeing a decline in the number of people walking up to the window and buying a ticket and a growing number of people buying passes. This has been a trend for awhile even before Ikon was introduced here.  So does that cause more crowding?  We will see.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> I do not think any of us yet fully understands what is occurring as more people buy a multi-resort pass instead of day tickets. We have been seeing a decline in the number of people walking up to the window and buying a ticket and a growing number of people buying passes. This has been a trend for awhile even before Ikon was introduced here.



Wonder if $139 window rate has anything to do with that lol


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## hovercraft (Mar 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> I do not think any of us yet fully understands what is occurring as more people buy a multi-resort pass instead of day tickets. We have been seeing a decline in the number of people walking up to the window and buying a ticket and a growing number of people buying passes. This has been a trend for awhile even before Ikon was introduced here.  So does that cause more crowding?  We will see.


What’s so hard to understand?  Raise the day rates, lower the season pass by 30% conservatively.  The pass can be used at 30 plus other mountains and people are surprised that the mountain gets more visits.  Doesn’t take a genius to figure that out....  SB will be more crowed just like all the other mountains that are in the Epic or Ikon systems.  Let’s get real here.  It’s part of the new price of admission!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

WinS said:


> *a growing number of people buying passes.....does that cause more crowding?  *



Yes.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> *SB will be more crowed just like all the other mountains that are in the Epic or Ikon *systems.  Let’s get real here.



SB will actually be worse.   As you're alluding to, we have enough data now already to understand how this works.

I'm coining a new term here, the _"Sacrificial Mountain"_, which are the unlimited IKON & EPIC hills.  They're necessary to "move" IKON pass sales, and those are the places that get jammed to the rafters.  

Examples of core IKON geographical _"Sacrificial Mountains"_ are: Copper, Mammoth, Solitude, Sugarbush, etc..


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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

Except I haven’t heard too much grumbling at Copper nor Mammoth.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Except I haven’t heard too much grumbling at Copper nor Mammoth.



Yeah, Copper was a bad example on my part because it's almost totally surrounded by EPIC.   It's the unlimited isolates like Solitude & Sugarbush that will suffer.   Specifically in the Sugarbush case, it will definitely peel away a certain percentage of people who went EPIC for Stowe, as well as current IKON folk who are forced to "settle" for Stratton.  Sugarbush will be overrun next season.


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## hovercraft (Mar 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> SB will actually be worse.   As you're alluding to, we have enough data now already to understand how this works.
> 
> I'm coining a new term here, the _"Sacrificial Mountain"_, which are the unlimited IKON & EPIC hills.  They're necessary to "move" IKON pass sales, and those are the places that get jammed to the rafters.
> 
> Examples of core IKON geographical _"Sacrificial Mountains"_ are: Copper, Mammoth, Solitude, Sugarbush, etc..



Like your new term.  SB will be overwhelmed next year, even the most causal observer understands that.....


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## prsboogie (Mar 8, 2020)

WinS said:


> I do not think any of us yet fully understands what is occurring as more people buy a multi-resort pass instead of day tickets. We have been seeing a decline in the number of people walking up to the window and buying a ticket and a growing number of people buying passes. This has been a trend for awhile even before Ikon was introduced here.  So does that cause more crowding?  We will see.


Hi WinS, any idea if Sugarbush will continue to partner with Warren Miller Films and offer free tickets to viewers?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## machski (Mar 8, 2020)

hovercraft said:


> Like your new term.  SB will be overwhelmed next year, even the most causal observer understands that.....


We'll see, but note that Stratton had been unlimited only on the full and now will be unlimited with blackouts on base too (Just like Sugarbush).  That may take some of the pressure off of SB.  Sugarbush is not a Solitude example.  Same with Mammoth, its not isolated, June is just up the road and also Ikon.  Have not been in full midwinter but I don't hear a lot of whinning at Mammoth.  The only real congestion is at Canyon and they are addressing that by replacing their Yan-o-myer HSQ with a new Six next year.  The rest of the place is huge and with the exception of the backside and extreme lookers right of the resort, there are high speed lifts all over the place.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Hi WinS, any idea if Sugarbush will continue to partner with Warren Miller Films and offer free tickets to viewers?



Unless that was a multi-year contract (I doubt it), I would be shocked if that continues.  Really, really, shocked.


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 10, 2020)

So much for discount on alcoholic beverages. I knew it sounded too good to be true.
“Pass holders present their cards when renting skis or snowboards on site, or when buying quick-service lunch or dinner. They can also use the Rewards website to book lodging, group lessons or rentals ahead of time. There is some fine print: Alcohol isn’t included, for example, and the dining discount applies up to $150 in purchases per day.”


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 10, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> So much for discount on alcoholic beverages. I knew it sounded too good to be true.



That's one thing I wouldnt criticize them for, as my guess is it might be illegal.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's one thing I wouldnt criticize them for, as my guess is it might be illegal.



It’s definitely illegal in Vermont.


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Hi WinS, any idea if Sugarbush will continue to partner with Warren Miller Films and offer free tickets to viewers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



Yes


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## WinS (Mar 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's one thing I wouldnt criticize them for, as my guess is it might be illegal.



Yes, it is illegal to discount liquor in Vermont


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## prsboogie (Mar 11, 2020)

WinS said:


> Yes


Thanks for the response!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s definitely illegal in Vermont.



And Utah where there are five IKON resorts.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> And Utah where there are five IKON resorts.



You cant even have a flipping pony keg in the privacy of your own man cave in Utah, so that's not surprising.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2020)

you can't have a keg in your home?


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## skiur (Mar 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You cant even have a flipping pony keg in the privacy of your own man cave in Utah, so that's not surprising.



But you can have 5 wives in Utah!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> But you can have 5 wives in Utah!



State of Utah should be issuing free Pony Kegs to every man with 5 Wives... 

:lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 11, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *you can't have a keg in your home?*





> _Utah has a keg beer law that prohibits anyone other than a licensed beer retailer from possessing beer (3.2%) in containers larger than two liters._



https://abc.utah.gov/laws/law_more_faqs.html


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2020)

ugh...


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## AdironRider (Mar 11, 2020)

My personal favorite is certain places can't pour liquor in front of you in Utah, like that changes the alcohol content or how you react to it.


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## x10003q (Mar 12, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> My personal favorite is certain places can't pour liquor in front of you in Utah, like that changes the alcohol content or how you react to it.



But they will take your money for the alcohol. It is the the height of hypocrisy.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2020)

x10003q said:


> But they will take your money for the alcohol. It is the the height of hypocrisy.



Not really, because they legally cant ban alcohol.  

If not for that fact, I imagine alcohol would have been banned in Utah at some point in our nation's history.  But the Utah alcohol laws are really idiotic.  Anything decent you generally need to get in a can.


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## Domeskier (Mar 12, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not really, because they legally cant ban alcohol.
> 
> If not for that fact, I imagine alcohol would have been banned in Utah at some point in our nation's history.  But the Utah alcohol laws are really idiotic.  Anything decent you generally need to get in a can.



The 21st amendment repealed prohibition but it doesn't prohibit state or local governments from banning alcohol.  There may be commerce clause concerns that would need to be addressed, but I'm not aware of any federal law that would prevent Utah or any other state or local government from banning the sale, possession or consumption of alcohol if they had the political will to do it.


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## skiur (Mar 12, 2020)

There are plenty of dry counties in the country, why couldn't there be a dry state?


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, Copper was a bad example on my part because it's almost totally surrounded by EPIC.   It's the unlimited isolates like Solitude & Sugarbush that will suffer.   Specifically in the Sugarbush case, it will definitely peel away a certain percentage of people who went EPIC for Stowe, as well as current IKON folk who are forced to "settle" for Stratton.  Sugarbush will be overrun next season.



Well Copper may not be a bad example.  The line getting to the parking lots have been so long they they have been backed up on to the 70 for about a 1/2 mile.  One of my coworker has the ikon and he does go there lately because lower mountain lift lines have been crazy especially on Saturday.  Copper is the only good resort from the 70 for ikon pass holders.  The 5 days at A Basin has not affected A Basin much.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2020)

smart denver based ikon holders have been skiing winter park not copper. 

i havent skied copper this year (and i dont care for it in general and would be fine to never go back), but it was def a shitshow last season when i was there around xmas and mlk

winter park this year from 12/23-30 was not a shitshow at all. never had a significant line/traffic/crowds problem on that trip


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