# Feds: VW Cars Deceive Emissions Testers



## thetrailboss (Sep 18, 2015)

This ain't good.....

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...feat-device-to-skirt-emissions-rules-epa-says


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> This ain't good.....
> 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...feat-device-to-skirt-emissions-rules-epa-says



At least they didn't kill anyone ....


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2015)

Pfft, the emissions rules are bullshit anyway.  Most people would rather have the performance instead better pollution control.  VW is just giving the people what they wanted.  I say good for them, too bad they got caught.  Makes me want to go buy a VW TDI (before they get 'fixed') even more now.


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## ctenidae (Sep 21, 2015)

Probably a good buying opportunity for VW stock. Especially is, as I suspect he is, bvibert is right on his read of people's attitudes and this has zero, or less, impact on sales.


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## Scruffy (Sep 21, 2015)

bvibert said:


> Pfft, the emissions rules are bullshit anyway.  Most people would rather have the performance instead better pollution control.  VW is just giving the people what they wanted.  I say good for them, too bad they got caught.  Makes me want to go buy a VW TDI (before they get 'fixed') even more now.



It's a slippery slope, regardless of what your stance on pollution control is. Do we want corporations using software against us, more than they already *overtly *do? Is it ok to say, have a a utility company put in software that when you're not looking (monitoring), spins your meter faster? It's all fun and games when our gov spins centrifuges faster in Iran, but really, for a corp. the size and breath of VW to engage in deceptive engineering, that's not a good thing.


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## bigbog (Sep 21, 2015)

VW liable for something Washington has been ignoring from the Ohio Valley for decades that's been dropping mercury and arsenic in our NE waters.   Think the penalties are a little uneven...y/n?


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## Scruffy (Sep 21, 2015)

bigbog said:


> VW liable for something Washington has been ignoring from the Ohio Valley for decades that's been dropping mercury and arsenic in our NE waters.   Think the penalties are a little uneven...y/n?



Maybe so, but you can thank your bought and paid for gov. for that. It's not like they didn't try to enact pollution control laws for the acid rain issue..


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## Scruffy (Sep 21, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> Probably a good buying opportunity for VW stock. Especially is, as I suspect he is, bvibert is right on his read of people's attitudes and this has zero, or less, impact on sales.



People should be upset with VW, and it should hurt them on their bottom line. What if you wanted Both performance and clean air, and you were told VW's superior German engineers cracked that nut, you were sold a lie. And, what if it was a safety issue they were being deceptive about, and one of your loved ones were injured unnecessarily because of it - how would you feel then? This is not a good thing and it's an affront to us as consumers as much as sticking it to our gov.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

Scruffy said:


> People should be upset with VW, and it should hurt them on their bottom line. What if you wanted Both performance and clean air, and you were told VW's superior German engineers cracked that nut, you were sold a lie. And, what if it was a safety issue they were being deceptive about, and one of your loved ones were injured unnecessarily because of it - how would you feel then? This is not a good thing and it's an affront to us as consumers as much as sticking it to our gov.



Exactly.  I think that it is ironic that most of the purchasers wanted a clean diesel.


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## dlague (Sep 21, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> At least they didn't kill anyone ....



According to the EPA in the article  it is a health risk!  OK!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2015)

I don't think most drivers wanted a "clean" diesel; they just wanted a diesel.  That engine has much more torque, so its more fun to drive and it gets better mileage.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think most drivers wanted a "clean" diesel; they just wanted a diesel.  That engine has much more torque, so its more fun to drive and it gets better mileage.



From the article:



> The news that the Volkswagens produce far more pollution than is legal is sure to rattle some VW owners who bought their cars at least in part because of their perceived impact on the environment.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2015)

Scruffy said:


> People should be upset with VW, and it should hurt them on their bottom line. What if you wanted Both performance and clean air, and you were told VW's superior German engineers cracked that nut, you were sold a lie. And, what if it was a safety issue they were being deceptive about, and one of your loved ones were injured unnecessarily because of it - how would you feel then? This is not a good thing and it's an affront to us as consumers as much as sticking it to our gov.





dlague said:


> According to the EPA in the article  it is a health risk!  OK!



A lot of this remains to shake out still, but the fine the EPA is seeking seems outsized compared to the punishment GM got for hiding a covering up a flaw that killed a lot of people. (some people really should have gone to prison for this!) Same goes for all the Japanese cars with airbags that shoot metal chunks into your head. 

Am I upset that VW was being deceptive, yes. Do I think it's as huge as it's being made out to be, No.

There's a great summary of what's known so far, as well as a heated discussion if you want to see what all the TDi nerds think:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448053


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> A lot of this remains to shake out still, but the fine the EPA is seeking seems outsized compared to the punishment GM got for hiding a covering up a flaw that killed a lot of people. (some people really should have gone to prison for this!) Same goes for all the Japanese cars with airbags that shoot metal chunks into your head.
> 
> Am I upset that VW was being deceptive, yes. Do I think it's as huge as it's being made out to be, No.
> 
> ...



In fairness, I was not comparing the VW issue to the GM or Japanese airbag issues.


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think most drivers wanted a "clean" diesel; they just wanted a diesel.  That engine has much more torque, so its more fun to drive and it gets better mileage.





thetrailboss said:


> From the article:



The article quote is pure speculation, it doesn't prove anything.  Nobody buys those things because they think they're helping the environment.

I'm sure some scum bags will be claiming that's the reason they bought the car, so they can get in on a class action lawsuit, but that doesn't mean shit.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2015)

bvibert said:


> The article quote is pure speculation, it doesn't prove anything.  Nobody buys those things because they think they're helping the environment.



I don't think that's true, people buy them for the fuel economy and they are heavily advertised as clean. The combo of both plus being fun to drive is what sells those. If they were just fun to drive, without the benefit of fuel economy and being "clean", what would be the point of dealing with some of the headaches associated with diesel (finding it sometimes, and complicated emissions equipment that can be costly to repair {and that apparently doesn't work!})

This Joplnik article really covers all the ins and outs and has the best summary at the end:

"Or you could sell it and buy a Prius. But then you’d have to own a Prius."

http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018


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## marcski (Sep 21, 2015)




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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2015)

marcski said:


>



It was only a matter of time ...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> It was only a matter of time ...



Yeah, saw that.  Made me laugh.


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## ctenidae (Sep 21, 2015)

Hitler came out quick. Pretty funny.

My brother wants to start a class action lawsuit, alleging the loss of four years of environmental smugness. His pain and suffering is, no doubt, exacerbated by the knowledge my twin turbo V8 that gets less than 20 MPG may be cleaner than his Passat diesel.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> Hitler came out quick. Pretty funny.
> 
> My brother wants to start a class action lawsuit, alleging the loss of four years of environmental smugness. His pain and suffering is, no doubt, exacerbated by the knowledge my twin turbo V8 that gets less than 20 MPG may be cleaner than his Passat diesel.



Two words for him: good luck.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

Another take: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-is-screwed-1732039455


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## wa-loaf (Sep 22, 2015)

Looking like it's a worldwide problem now ...


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## JimG. (Sep 22, 2015)

It doesn't bother anyone that VW took $51 million in subsidies from the US taxpayer by lying about mileage figures? 

I would never buy a VW anyway but these scumbags defrauded consumers and then stole $51 million. If I owned a dog I would train it to piss on every VW in my neighborhood.


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## bigbog (Sep 22, 2015)

Scruffy said:


> Maybe so, but you can thank your bought and paid for gov. for that. It's not like they didn't try to enact pollution control laws for the acid rain issue..



Think Washington's effort at legislation was half-hearted...y/n?
Washington/Nixon buckled to industry's blackmail due to Nixon's traits = fear, lack of confidence and very little foresight...add to that the fear of Communism as a successful economic model for the world...


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## marcski (Sep 22, 2015)

JimG. said:


> It doesn't bother anyone that VW took $51 million in subsidies from the US taxpayer by lying about mileage figures?
> 
> I would never buy a VW anyway but these scumbags defrauded consumers and then stole $51 million. If I owned a dog I would train it to piss on every VW in my neighborhood.



They didn't lie about the mileage.  In fact, the actual mileage is better than advertised and now we know why:  because the computer is programmed to turn down/off the emission controls during actual driving conditions.  So they didn't lie about mileage, they lied about the vehicles being in compliance with emissions standards.  Just sayin'.   :roll:  And the people who bought the vehicles were just as much duped as the rest of the American taxpayers.  So, your dog shouldn't be pissing on innocent victims' vehicles.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 22, 2015)

marcski said:


> They didn't lie about the mileage.  In fact, the actual mileage is better than advertised and now we know why:  because the computer is programmed to turn down/off the emission controls during actual driving conditions.  So they didn't lie about mileage, they lied about the vehicles being in compliance with emissions standards.  Just sayin'.   :roll:  And the people who bought the vehicles were just as much duped as the rest of the American taxpayers.  So, your dog shouldn't be pissing on innocent victims' vehicles.



And I'm sure we'll hear about the IRS coming to collect its subsidies back soon enough. From VW and not the owners. It's a smaller pool since it was only offered for 2009 cars.


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## ctenidae (Sep 22, 2015)

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars

Decent little piece attempting to explain the fraud.
It's intriguing to think about how this all went down. One could image that back in 2007 or 2008, engineers working on clean diesel realized they were going to come up short on hitting the 2009 standards. Sitting in the local biergarten, complaining they just need more time, one of the programmers had a bright idea- they could buy some time with a little piece of code, that no one would notice. Just leave it in until they crack the problem with the Pfetzer valves. One model year, two at most. Easy enough, no harm, no foul. 

The marketing guys got hold of the test numbers, and thought, "Bonanza! (or whatever it is in German) We can sell a lot of cars with this number, and boy do we need a break!" To the delight of smug environmentally conscious lead foots everywhere, this was great news. TDi for the win! Unfortunately, the Pfetzer problem turned out to take a bit more than some gauze pads and 3-in-1 oil, and it took 7 years for the engineers to figure it out. After blowing their antifreeze budgets on a bad Prestone/Quaker Sate arbitrage play, they couldn't very well go back to their bosses and kill the proverbial golden goose. So, they left the code operating, and continued to hope no one noticed. 

Finally, at some point last year, they realized they had cracked it, and were going to have new, real, clean diesel engines for the 2017 model year. Success! They were saved! And just in time. Except, some tree hugging Dudley Doorights had hired a bunch of boffins in West Virginia, who skipped the code and realized, "Shit, this doesn't work right." Now, all those engineers, who thought they'd bought a little time with an innocent bit of software, are responsible for 480,000 cases of young male depression and 1.1 million cases of angst as people try to decide if they should live grey dull lives because they fixed their car and now it's boring, or if they should live grey dull lives because they didn't fix their car and can't see through the smog. 

And all because the neighbor cat's piss was just a little too acidic. Sad, really.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2015)

Another interesting article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/volkswagen-diesel-emissions/


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## ctenidae (Sep 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Another interesting article:
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/volkswagen-diesel-emissions/



Wow. That maps frighteningly close to my little scenario. Except for the biergarten, which every good story should feature.


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## octopus (Sep 22, 2015)

according to the nfl and espn "tom brady probably most likely knew about this"


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## JimG. (Sep 22, 2015)

marcski said:


> :roll:  And the people who bought the vehicles were just as much duped as the rest of the American taxpayers.  So, your dog shouldn't be pissing on innocent victims' vehicles.



I guess it's good I don't own one.

Do you own a VW? I would be pissed if I bought one based on emissions/environmental claims.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2015)

octopus said:


> according to the nfl and espn "tom brady probably most likely knew about this"



[Not funny.]


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## ctenidae (Sep 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> [Not funny.]



[Maybe a little bit funny]


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## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2015)

More likely than not a little funny


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## Cornhead (Sep 22, 2015)

octopus said:


> according to the nfl and espn "tom brady probably most likely knew about this"



If not Tom, Belicheat surely knew. Perhaps he was hired by VW as a consultant. OK New Englanders, let me have it, donned in asbestos.


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## andrec10 (Sep 22, 2015)

Tom knew about it. Who do you think VW consulted for this back in the day.  A liar, a cheater and a Murderer walked into a bar...Oh wait, the Patriots are in town. Now let me go put on my flame suit...Lol.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2015)

andrec10 said:


> Tom knew about it. Who do you think VW consulted for this back in the day.  A liar, a cheater and a Murderer walked into a bar...Oh wait, the Patriots are in town. Now let me go put on my flame suit...Lol.



:lol:


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## Not Sure (Sep 22, 2015)

Judging by the Stock price movement the day before the announcement ,Somebody knew !
A bunch of years ago the Shorts got their asses handed to them , not quite payback but a little change.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 23, 2015)

Philpug got himself interviewed out in Nevada:
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headline...Furious-Over-Emissions-Scandal-328749831.html


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2015)

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/23/news/companies/volkswagen-emissions-crisis/index.html

Not surprisingly, the CEO resigned.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/23/news/companies/volkswagen-emissions-crisis/index.html
> 
> Not surprisingly, the CEO resigned.



Or was forced out at the insistence of the majority owners (at least according to NPR).


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## steamboat1 (Sep 23, 2015)

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/


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## ctenidae (Sep 23, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/



Guess what the pop over ad on the article was...


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## wa-loaf (Sep 23, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> Guess what the pop over ad on the article was...



I got microsoft, but I'm assuming you got a VW ad?

I think VW is going to have to buy back my car and give me a good discount on a new one. Hell there will probably be an oversupply of VWs over the next year anyway.

Sadly this might usher in the end of diesel for use in passenger cars. Even if other manufacturers haven't pulled the same hi-jinx this will scare most people away from them.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 23, 2015)




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## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2015)

Vermont Law Firm files suit against VW for Vermont VW owners:

http://www.wcax.com/story/30100936/vt-law-firm-files-class-action-suit-against-volkswagen


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## drjeff (Sep 23, 2015)

I can just imagine the justification wording behind the class action suit.... You deceived my hipster self into thinking I was being cool by driving a diesel that was actually "clean" but instead you just let me get better mileage and saved me money all these years! :lol:


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## ctenidae (Sep 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/23/news/companies/volkswagen-emissions-crisis/index.html
> 
> Not surprisingly, the CEO resigned.



Looks like they're replacing him with Muller- Porsche gets to own VW after all!


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## wa-loaf (Sep 25, 2015)

You can add 2.8 million more VW cars in Germany just added to the list.


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## andrec10 (Sep 25, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> You can add 2.8 million more VW cars in Germany just added to the list.



I sense a sinking ship!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2015)

I doubt it.  It will hurt sales and profits for a year or two at most.

Just recently Toyota and GM covered up issues with their vehicles to avoid recalls and the dishonesty of those companies killed a lot of people.

Anyone hear any outrage still towards those car makers? 

Consumers have very short memories and VW had a lot of loyal customers because of the way the cars drive.  They're not boring like most American and Japanese brands, so the alternatives to that bad bad company are cars those customers won't like as much.


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## Funky_Catskills (Sep 25, 2015)

Given the current Europe economy - I'd say they won't let them go under...


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## wa-loaf (Sep 25, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Given the current Europe economy - I'd say they won't let them go under...



Too big and important of a company in Germany to wipe out. Germany will likely toss a lot of executives (the folks responsible for all this are based in Germany) in jail for a few years and VW will go on.


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## bvibert (Sep 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I doubt it.  It will hurt sales and profits for a year or two at most.
> 
> Just recently Toyota and GM covered up issues with their vehicles to avoid recalls and the dishonesty of those companies killed a lot of people.
> 
> ...



Agreed, they're not going anywhere, but they could be hurting for a little while.

This may be a good time to buy up some of their stock..


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## wa-loaf (Sep 25, 2015)

bvibert said:


> This may be a good time to buy up some of their stock..



I'd wait on that, still a lot of unknowns that can knock the stock down even further,


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## marcski (Sep 26, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> I'd wait on that, still a lot of unknowns that can knock the stock down even further,


I imagine it is the best time to get an Awesome deal on some gas powered VW's. I'd lowball and bargain. Those showrooms must be empty right about now.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2015)

Now Utah.....



> Michael Yeoman; Sean Myles, individually and on behalf of all other individuals similarly situated
> v.
> Volkswagen Group of America Inc.; Volkswagen of America Inc.; Does
> 9/25/2015 2:15 cv 692 Pead
> ...


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## marcski (Sep 30, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> At least they didn't kill anyone ....



The NY Times in this article says otherwise...:   

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/u...d-volkswagens-deception-cause-in-us.html?_r=0


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## wa-loaf (Oct 7, 2015)

No Diesels for 2016:
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-vw-cancels-2016-diesel-line-up-20151007-story.html


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## SkiFanE (Oct 12, 2015)

Today I was thinking that if VW had some magic clean diesel - wouldn't someone else in the industry have been suspicious?  They were able to fake it for 8 years or so and no one went "I've studied their specs/tech/ equipment and I don't know how they came up with those #s"?  Or does that only happen in professional football inflation scandals - lol. Just amazes me that they were faking #s so grossly that no one was smart enough to pick up on it.


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## Not Sure (Oct 12, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> Today I was thinking that if VW had some magic clean diesel - wouldn't someone else in the industry have been suspicious?  They were able to fake it for 8 years or so and no one went "I've studied their specs/tech/ equipment and I don't know how they came up with those #s"?  Or does that only happen in professional football inflation scandals - lol. Just amazes me that they were faking #s so grossly that no one was smart enough to pick up on it.


Maybe  they did the same?     TBD?


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## buellski (Oct 13, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Maybe  they did the same?     TBD?



Maybe


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## Not Sure (Nov 2, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Maybe  they did the same?     TBD?



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...nvestigation-of-volkswagen-emissions-cheating


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