# Why are lessons so expensive?



## jaywbigred (Jan 2, 2011)

Here is a question I've long held but never sought an answer to:

Why are lessons so expensive?

I would think that ski resorts would have an interest in making them as cheap as possible. Competent skiers who can turn, stop, ride the lifts safely, and perhaps who "know how to fall" correctly would seemingly reduce skiing injuries in general, and thus reduce litigation and insurance costs.

It doesn't make sense to me. We all know the instructors are not well paid. The cost of the lesson wouldn't (seemingly) be their wages.

Because this is industry wide, it makes me think there must be hidden costs I can't think of. Perhaps part of it is just the cost of having a ski school? I.e. paying for the associated insurance, paying instructors for not only the hours spent teaching, but also their own training, not to mention all the downtime during slow periods, etc... But I still can't make it add up.

I lament the state of things because the high cost of lessons is the most often cited deterrent to skiing when I go about my business of trying to recruit friends of mine who are never-evers or hardly-evers to come on more ski trips. Even when never-ever lessons are reasonable, lessons for people who are at a level of "established beginner" or better are often much more.

Anyone have any insight?


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## Clarkl23 (Jan 3, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> Here is a question I've long held but never sought an answer to:
> 
> Why are lessons so expensive?
> 
> Anyone have any insight?



As one of those poorly paid instructors my guess is that we're just a profit center for the mountain.  For all of the reasons you mention you'd think that keeping lessons as cheap as possible would be in a mountain's best interest, but there are only so many of us and you really don't want to do a group lesson with much more than 5 people of similar ability.  

Clark


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## KevinF (Jan 3, 2011)

During my ski teaching career, I never heard of an instructor who got paid when they weren't actually teaching.  This might change once you rise to the rank of "examiner" or something, but the run-of-the-mill instructor certainly isn't paid for "being there".

I was not allowed to teach students "how to fall" due to liability reasons.  i.e., if I taught you "how to fall" and you fell and got hurt, then you had cause to sue.  Or so I was told...

Is there any statistical evidence to back up the claim that advanced skiers get hurt less often then beginner skiers do?  Obviously skiers of all ability levels can and do get hurt, so I'm not sure there's any insurance benefits to having a more-educated skier base.

I believe there's only one reason for ski lessons being expensive -- they're a profit center for the mountain, plain and simple.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 3, 2011)

KevinF said:


> Is there any statistical evidence to back up the claim that advanced skiers get hurt less often then beginner skiers do?  Obviously skiers of all ability levels can and do get hurt, so I'm not sure there's any insurance benefits to having a more-educated skier base.



"Research suggests that younger, lighter and less experienced skiers are at highest risk of injury. Beginners are thought to be 33% more likely to be injured than the more experienced skier." http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/bysport/skiing-injuries.htm

"There is evidence to suggest that the rate of injury is lower for expert skiers and snowboarders than for beginners." But "Compared with beginners, experts had an increased risk of suffering from a severe injury." "Self-reported skill level and injury severity in skiers and snowboarders." J Sci Med Sport. 2010 Jan;13(1):39-41. Epub 2009 Jan 4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19124272

"Beginners are 3-5 times more likely to be injured than advanced skiers." http://books.google.com/books?id=oc...v=onepage&q=skiing injuries beginners&f=false

It looks like yes, beginners are injured more often. It looks like the rates are even more dramatic for snowboarding. But it also looks like advanced skiers get hurt more severely. I wonder which impacts insurance rates more...it might seem like severe injuries would, but I think there is a possibility that we, as unknowing observers, over-weight the "big news" litigations that result from traumatic injuries, ignoring the smaller, more regular cases which are probably fairly constant (broken bones, knee injuries, concussions). But who knows.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2011)

One thing I'm surprised you don't see more of is independent instructors.  It seems like a raw deal for instructors at areas given the minimal amount of the overall lesson $$$ that gets paid to the instructor.  Factor on top of that that the instructors have to pay out of their own pocket for training and certifications.

If I was a capable instructor, I'd look to strike out on my own.  Make some business cards and hand them out at local lodging properties, have a facebook page etc.  You could undercut the ski areas, but still make more money.

Advantage to the students: cheaper lessons.

Disadvantage to the students: no line cutting.


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## SkiDork (Jan 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> One thing I'm surprised you don't see more of is independent instructors.  It seems like a raw deal for instructors at areas given the minimal amount of the overall lesson $$$ that gets paid to the instructor.  Factor on top of that that the instructors have to pay out of their own pocket for training and certifications.
> 
> If I was a capable instructor, I'd look to strike out on my own.  Make some business cards and hand them out at local lodging properties, have a facebook page etc.  You could undercut the ski areas, but still make more money.
> 
> ...



Would ski areas allow this?  Or would you have to do it clandestinely?


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## WakeboardMom (Jan 3, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> Would ski areas allow this?  Or would you have to do it clandestinely?



Wouldn't insurance/liability be an issue?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> Would ski areas allow this?  Or would you have to do it clandestinely?



As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it.  People give their friends pointers are all the time.  In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.


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## severine (Jan 3, 2011)

Sort of like giving personal training sessions at a gym you're not affiliated with? Interesting thought...


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## Geoff (Jan 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it.  People give their friends pointers are all the time.  In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.



Nope.  The resort will yank your pass if you are caught giving illicit lessons for money on their hill.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Nope.  The resort will yank your pass if you are caught giving illicit lessons for money on their hill.



Does it say they can do that on the lift ticket?


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## billski (Jan 3, 2011)

KevinF said:


> I was not allowed to teach students "how to fall" due to liability reasons.  i.e., if I taught you "how to fall" and you fell and got hurt, then you had cause to sue.  Or so I was told...
> .



As a consumer, I find that bizarre.  The first two things I learned, and what kept me in the game was learning how to stop and how to fall.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 3, 2011)

billski said:


> As a consumer, I find that bizarre.  The first two things I learned, and what kept me in the game was learning how to stop and how to fall.



I too definitely "learned how to fall." I think I taught it too during my brief stint as an instructor at Greek Peak. I don't think in either case we were told to fall on purpose (liability). It was more of a "if you feel yourself going down, here is the best way to do it." Followed immediately by "how to get up." Woe to the instructor with the group of 60 year old never-ever ladies on that one..


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## mister moose (Jan 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> As long as both parties paid to use the lifts for the day, I don't see how a ski area could say anything about it.  People give their friends pointers are all the time.  In this case, you're just charging for the pointers.



This falls under 2 cases:

Ski resort on private land:
The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.

Ski resort on public land:
The resort has a lease to operate from the government. The lease almost always guarantees exclusive rights to commercial activity on the leased premises.  Commercial activity on public land without a license, permit or lease is almost always illegal.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 3, 2011)

As to the running a private ski lesson, couldn't you just inform your client that if stopped make sure to deny you paid for any such lesson and as the off mountain/private instructor just deny you got paid.  Granted after a whole winter of giving people lessons for free, I think the jig is up.

To the original poster, I agree with all you said, but the other big thing to cheaper lessons would be a hefty amount of potential future skiers.  I would guess most people have no intrest in skiing from the beginning when they see the lessons.


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## St. Bear (Jan 3, 2011)

mister moose said:


> This falls under 2 cases:
> 
> Ski resort on private land:
> The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or *conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.*
> ...



I think this is the key point.  If there is money changing hands, the resort/area is going to want a piece of the action.


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## SkiDork (Jan 3, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> As to the running a private ski lesson, couldn't you just inform your client that if stopped make sure to deny you paid for any such lesson and as the off mountain/private instructor just deny you got paid.  Granted after a whole winter of giving people lessons for free, I think the jig is up.



If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.


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## severine (Jan 3, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.



Yeah, that would seem pretty fishy to me...


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## gmcunni (Jan 3, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> If I were a potential customer and was told those were the terms of the lesson, I would run as fast away from that instructor as I could.





severine said:


> Yeah, that would seem pretty fishy to me...



yes, i think if that conversation took place just outside the ticket booth it would be troubling and a bit creepy.. but if "Mr X" from AlpineZone was known to be an instructor/coach, you were seeking some help with your technique in the form of 1:1 and he was willing to give it then that "secret agreement" might make a lot of sense.

i'm not condoning theft of service (or whatever law/rule might apply) just saying it probably does happen.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2011)

mister moose said:


> This falls under 2 cases:
> 
> Ski resort on private land:
> The resort sets their own rules, and can ask you to leave for (any reason, really) a whole host of reasons, including lack of insurance, or conducting a commercial operation on their property without permission.
> ...



I can think of one example where this probably occurs quite often.

Substitute the word 'coach' for instructor.   I'm sure there a numerous professionals that have private paid coaches that ski with them at various mountains without incident.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 3, 2011)

Can any of the industry guys provide insight here into what accounts for the high cost of lessons? 

(I'm note looking to be pointed to an individual mountain's package deals or to other ways to "save" on the cost of lesson; last night I put together a table comparing the costs and I am aware that multi-day deals can bring the cost down significantly. I am also aware that the length of a lesson can vary, so that the price/hour is actually a more hidden statistic. I am just looking for an explanation as to what goes into the cost).


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## bigbog (Jan 3, 2011)

Greedy resort mgmnt...  $.01-guess.


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## ta&idaho (Jan 3, 2011)

Businesses charge the price that maximizes their profit, which isn't exclusively a function of their cost.  Weekends and holidays are much more expensive than weekdays, for example, even though the cost differences are minimal.  My guess is that resorts have figured out that lessons are a way to extract additional revenue from families who are willing to pay it (and I further guess that this problem is more acute at the fancier full-service/destination resorts).  I imagine that some skiers value lessons highly, while others place very little value on lessons.  To some extent, resorts are able to tailor package deals to appeal to both consumer segments (great package deals for first-timers and better group lesson rates for kids, for example), but their ability to differentiate is limited.  Most resorts would rather earn large mark-ups from the consumers that will pay it than have to rely on smaller margins with higher volumes.


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## rocojerry (Jan 3, 2011)

This week, this thread doesn't hold much water, if you are a beginner or know one, get out there -- VT/NH/ME all offering great deals this week


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## billski (Jan 3, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> Businesses charge the price that maximizes their profit, which isn't exclusively a function of their cost.  Weekends and holidays are much more expensive than weekdays, for example, even though the cost differences are minimal.  My guess is that resorts have figured out that lessons are a way to extract additional revenue from families who are willing to pay it (and I further guess that this problem is more acute at the fancier full-service/destination resorts).  I imagine that some skiers value lessons highly, while others place very little value on lessons.  To some extent, resorts are able to tailor package deals to appeal to both consumer segments (great package deals for first-timers and better group lesson rates for kids, for example), but their ability to differentiate is limited.  Most resorts would rather earn large mark-ups from the consumers that will pay it than have to rely on smaller margins with higher volumes.



Free market economy = supply vs. demand
Weekend = when most people can come.  work, school, work.
Lessons = skiing is enough of a hassle, go for one stop shopping.  Besides, beginners are usually not savvy enough to shop around.

BTW, a lot of resorts, at least in NH and VT offer discounted learn to ski packages.  Many are offering entire learn to ski packages in January.


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## trtaylor (Jan 3, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> Can any of the industry guys provide insight here into what accounts for the high cost of lessons?
> 
> (I'm note looking to be pointed to an individual mountain's package deals or to other ways to "save" on the cost of lesson; last night I put together a table comparing the costs and I am aware that multi-day deals can bring the cost down significantly. I am also aware that the length of a lesson can vary, so that the price/hour is actually a more hidden statistic. I am just looking for an explanation as to what goes into the cost).



Here's a typical daily staffing of paid employees at the hill where I teach.

Paid staff:

Ski School Director
Director's administrative assistant
Two dispatchers (lessons provided at two separate locations)
Two shift supervisors
Childrens Center Director

Safe to assume their wages are nominal. I am unaware of what benefits the above employees may receive, but as all (except maybe the SSD) are considered part time employees, benefits probably don't extend much past the free ski pass. 

And I have no way of knowing just how profitable the ski school is for the mountain. Ski Resort Observer may have some insight into a mountain's target profit margin for services, such as ski school.


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## billski (Jan 3, 2011)

trtaylor said:


> Here's a typical daily staffing of paid employees at the hill where I teach..



I'll ask, I don't know these answers:

Who pays for the new, fancy-schmantzy jackets every year?
Who pays for instructor certification?
All the legal fees to pay for these unreadable release forms?
Additional insurance?

There must be other fixed costs I'm not thinking about.


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## trtaylor (Jan 3, 2011)

Who pays for the new, fancy-schmantzy jackets every year? 
My hill will reimburse you for the cost of your jacket after you accumlate 100 hours.

Who pays for instructor certification?
The instructors.

All the legal fees to pay for these unreadable release forms?
The mountain.

Additional insurance?
The mountain.


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## ta&idaho (Jan 3, 2011)

billski said:


> Free market economy = supply vs. demand



To be precise, we're talking only about the supply function.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 3, 2011)

One of the hidden, but larger costs for many mountains is Workers Compensation insurance.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 3, 2011)

Everything about skiing is expensive, so why should private lessons be any different??


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## jaywbigred (Jan 3, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Everything about skiing is expensive, so why should private lessons be any different??



I asked because it has been cited to me repeatedly as a barrier to entry for people who otherwise are interested in taking up the sport. If you train people well and train them cheaply, don't you get more out of them over the long haul as habitual skiers? I assume mountains have thought about this, so I was just looking for something concrete that results in high costs.

If it really is simply profit taking in a market where some people will pay it, that seems short sighted to me.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 3, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> I asked because it has been cited to me repeatedly as a barrier to entry for people who otherwise are interested in taking up the sport. If you train people well and train them cheaply, don't you get more out of them over the long haul as habitual skiers? I assume mountains have thought about this, so I was just looking for something concrete that results in high costs.
> 
> If it really is simply profit taking in a market where some people will pay it, that seems short sighted to me.



Gotcha, interesting point of view. I'd never really thought of it that way.


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## gorgonzola (Jan 3, 2011)

i heard that blue is doing something interesting this year... roving instructors that look for people having problems, stop and give them a few pointers and a discount lesson voucher. sounds like a great idea especially with all the noobs on any given weekend.


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## Breeze (Jan 3, 2011)

n my own experience working in  Guest  Services, I've  seen some  big  changes  in ski school marketing--- specifically  aimed at  bringing the price down  to bring new and LASTING customers to the sport. 

January is  National Learn To Ski  or Ride  Month, and lots  of  resorts/areas have  special pricing and programs.  Offers and programs   will differ  from   place to place, but there are  GREAT deals  out there for a limited  time.  These are  targeted  marketing programs,  some date specific,  some limited to  reservation only and NOT  reflected at the  ticket  window   for a walk-up  lesson request. 

Many resorts/areas partner with local  school districts and municipal recreation departments to provide  instruction and fun for  their "future" customer  base.   Capture the local school kids,  they get an early release  from "school" but they also get  3 + hours of supervised outdoor  exercise and small group instruction for 6-8  weeks January-  February.    Sometimes that is even accompanied  by a truly special discounted  season pass price, so by the time  February vacation roll around, the  kids  have a  " home  mountain" to  enjoy.

Resorts/areas really  try to sell "seasonal" programs for  both kids and adults.  6-8-10 week  programs  that meet on Saturday or   Sunday and  the   hopeful result of that  kind of  program is a committed season passholder. 

Wildcat has a fabulous program for the Never  Ever Skier/ Rider age  13+    Pony up  $ 219 dollars , and you get  4 2-hour lessons, a  full day  lift  ticket  on the beginner  slope  chair for each lesson  day,  full day rentals  for each lesson  day, and  at the end of   the 4 lessons, you get a  full season pass at  WIldcat.  Stretch it  out  over  month of one day  visits, or  condense it  into a single  weekend.  It's built that way for a purpose.   Huge  discount but  also a  tangible  commitment. 

So,  OK, now  all of those kinds of deals  are targeted  at capturing  committed customers.  All those deals are  ALSO  targeted at employing/keeping  ski instructors by  making sure  instructors  can come to work every day as  scheduled  with the expectation of  actually having  work  to do  and the expectation of being compensated for their time as they  expected  or were contracted.  The instructors  hope  their   compensable    time has been sold as far as possible in advance  to people who made an effort to  commit., in advance.   

Late comers, and walk-ups,  will  pay rack rate for  on-demand services. 

As with lodging,  airfare and other  leisure time pursuits, planning and forethought  will be rewarded.  

No one   really knows whether this  will  pan out  over the long haul but there is a lot of thought  being brought into the  mix. 

 Breeze 







.


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## riverc0il (Jan 3, 2011)

Breeze said:


> n my own experience working in  Guest  Services, I've  seen some  big  changes  in ski school marketing--- specifically  aimed at  bringing the price down  to bring new and LASTING customers to the sport.


I have been brewing and stewing on a pending article regarding individual ski area versus its regional competition in reference to lasting customer base and growing the base of skiers. Essentially, the thought that I am working on is how much effort an individual ski area is motivated to grow and develop life long skiers. Obviously, they are VERY motivated if they have a potential repeat customer. But if it is a once off, where is the motivation? Would ski areas do a better job developing new skiers and riders if they KNEW the customer would keep coming back to THEM rather than looking else where? There is a self interest as the skier MIGHT come back. But the thought I am working on is often times, that skier just moves onto the next area. Its more marketing to get them there than services to retain them. 

I REALLY need to flesh the idea out more. But the general thought is that ski areas are not doing enough to develop not just lasting customers (self interest) but lasting skiers and riders, no matter where they will eventually go. Areas want to do better than the competition but where is the motivation to really go above and beyond in a major way. And still be profitable? Or should that be a loss leader? Can it be?

Here is a good example from a neighboring activity of skiing: golf. I took it up and tried it but I could never bring myself to pay $50+ for a 45 minute lesson. Completely outrageous. I spent hours upon hours watching video on the net, bought a bunch of books, and played a lot of rounds. A lot of money for sure probably better spent with a lesson or ten. But for $50, I left my misery on the course and I ain't never going back. 

How many potential skiers and riders does that happen to because they are not developed and often times because of expense? It would be cool to see the state associations take a more proactive roll in unifying resorts on better learn to ski and developing better ski products at more reasonable rates. When S tried skiing, I was floored at how much places charged for ticket/rental/lesson combo. Even for never evers that would only ski the magic carpet or at best the easiest bunny lift on their first day. They should get the full boat for less than the cost of a full day ticket, IMO, if resorts are serious about sustaining and growing the sliding population.

Okay, but to stewing over that more so I can get my thoughts in better and more logical arrangement.


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## Skimaine (Jan 3, 2011)

gorgonzola said:


> i heard that blue is doing something interesting this year... roving instructors that look for people having problems, stop and give them a few pointers and a discount lesson voucher. sounds like a great idea especially with all the noobs on any given weekend.




Definitely an interesting strategy.   

Harris has tried a strategy at their Maine golf courses (e.g., Penobscot Valley, SR, Wilson and others).   They offer essentially free group lessons.  The lessons are scheduled and usually focused on a particular skill.  The idea is the same.  Get more folks hooked the sport.


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## Breeze (Jan 3, 2011)

Steve, sending a  big   TY to  you   for reading and digesting my   lame  attempt  to explain post..   Actually the  whole  topic is  fraught with  discord both sides of the  cash till which ever  way one looks  and  ELEVENTY!! other people  could  jump my   posterior.  You  didn't  and I  so appreciate you thoughtful  consideration. 

  Rock on

 Breeze


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## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I have been brewing and stewing on a pending article regarding individual ski area versus its regional competition in reference to lasting customer base and growing the base of skiers. Essentially, the thought that I am working on is how much effort an individual ski area is motivated to grow and develop life long skiers. Obviously, they are VERY motivated if they have a potential repeat customer. But if it is a once off, where is the motivation? Would ski areas do a better job developing new skiers and riders if they KNEW the customer would keep coming back to THEM rather than looking else where? There is a self interest as the skier MIGHT come back. But the thought I am working on is often times, that skier just moves onto the next area. Its more marketing to get them there than services to retain them.
> 
> I REALLY need to flesh the idea out more. But the general thought is that ski areas are not doing enough to develop not just lasting customers (self interest) but lasting skiers and riders, no matter where they will eventually go. Areas want to do better than the competition but where is the motivation to really go above and beyond in a major way. And still be profitable? Or should that be a loss leader? Can it be?
> 
> ...



First year for baby boomers entering retirement.  There is going to be a lot skiers and riders retiring from the sport in the coming decade due to both living on a fixed income and choosing to participate in sports with lesser demands on the body.  

It will be interesting to see what kind of participation our sport has ten years from now.  My guess is much less than today despite a population that is expanding.


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## Breeze (Jan 3, 2011)

Steve, sending a  big   TY to  you   for reading and digesting my   lame  attempt  to explain post..   Actually the  whole  topic is  fraught with  discord both sides of the  cash till which ever  way one looks  and  ELEVENTY!! other people  could  jump my   posterior.  You  didn't  and I  so appreciate your thoughtful  consideration. 

  Rock on

 Breeze


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## abc (Jan 4, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> I asked because it has been cited to me repeatedly as a barrier to entry for people who otherwise are interested in taking up the sport. If you train people well and train them cheaply, don't you get more out of them over the long haul as habitual skiers? I assume mountains have thought about this, so I was just looking for something concrete that results in high costs.
> 
> If it really is simply profit taking in a market where some people will pay it, that seems short sighted to me.


But beginer lessons aren't expensive. Many resort has learn-to-ski packages that are not much more than the lift ticket plus rental, with instruction pratically thrown in for free. Any savy beginer knows he would do well by taking advantage of such packages. Those who thrown themselves down the slope un-taught are minorities, more likely mis-guided by their "friend" who took them there in the first place. 

But if you're talking about coninuation of lessons beyond beginer level, you're right. It's expensive so a lot of lower intermediate don't take any more and are stuck in that termal level. 

Not sure if the mountain can actually profit from the outcome of better skiers/boarders. So it would be up to each mountain to price its lesson package to forster any relationships. 

Persoanlly, I'm not sure I agree people don't take lessons. Many do, even though equally many don't, On the other hand, I'm equally unsure those 1 1/2 hr lesson does much good above the intermediate (parallel) level. I think it's more of a cost to result ratio that people found "expensive" beyond the wedge level. It takes more than 1 or 2 lessons to move beyond parallel. At that rate, it becomes expensive. That's why many intermediate don't take lesson any more.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 4, 2011)

abc said:


> But beginer lessons aren't expensive. Many resort has learn-to-ski packages that are not much more than the lift ticket plus rental, with instruction pratically thrown in for free. Any savy beginer knows he would do well by taking advantage of such packages. Those who thrown themselves down the slope un-taught are minorities, more likely mis-guided by their "friend" who took them there in the first place.


 Let me couch what I am saying by stating that for the entirety of this thread I have been speaking regarding adult lessons only. And, mostly, I have been talking about people, adults, that do not qualify for the never-ever packages. 

That being said, I have already stated that I understand that these packages for neverevers do exist. I actually put together a chart in MS Word the other night to compare the costs, but it needs a lot of improving before I post it. What I saw is of these packages is what you might expect: they usually come with multi-day discounts, rentals, and a restricted lift ticket. Given the utility of a restricted ticket, and the commitment required of any multi-day deal that cannot be used in a single weekend, I question just how cheap they really are. Your first day(s) on skis aren't always joyous; to commit to coming back for another weekend and spending all the lodging costs and time again is hard for some folks. Further, if your an adult, spending 2, 3, 4 or more days on the bunny slopes might not seem like a ton of fun, esp. while friends are off skiing/riding the whole mountain. So the restricted lift ticket is a stopping point, but to upgrade costs more money.



abc said:


> But if you're talking about coninuation of lessons beyond beginer level, you're right. It's expensive so a lot of lower intermediate don't take any more and are stuck in that termal level.


 As I said, this IS what I've been talking about. When I said "barrier to entry", I guess what I really mean is "barrier to becoming a dedicated skier." By age 30, I would venture to guess that most (though not all) people that WILL ever try skiing HAVE already tried skiing. A lot of them will not qualify for the never-ever packages. These are people that go skiing once or twice a year. They want to go more, but they can't keep up. They are self conscious about their skills, and about holding the group back. They can ski from the top of the mountain on green and maybe blue trails without help, and often times without falling. But they take their time. They are careful, slow, and petrified by non-perfect conditions (flat light, ice, crowds, etc...). What they need are a few pointers and some confidence boosting. Imo, that comes from a series of lessons, but a series of lessons for these type of people would be hundreds of dollars, on top of their all mountain lift ticket. The cost is so high, that these people often hit the slopes with either antiquated or borrowed equipment (in order to save on renting), which doesn't help the cause.



abc said:


> Not sure if the mountain can actually profit from the outcome of better skiers/boarders. So it would be up to each mountain to price its lesson package to forster any relationships.


 The people I describe above come skiing once or twice a year (2-4 days). If they could keep up with the group, they would probably come 5 or 6 times a year or more (10-12 days). Let's face it, for the most part, frustrated, upper level beginners or lower level intermediates do not ski 20 or 30 days a year. They don't take week long vacations to go skiing. They don't stay slopeside/ski-in, ski-out because they often can't or are scared to ski out. To me, if you wanted to increase skier days at your mountain, you'd work at getting these people to be solid intermediates or better, so that they become habitual skiers who ski all the major holidays, a couple weekends on top of that, plus take a week long ski vacation once a year. 



abc said:


> Persoanlly, I'm not sure I agree people don't take lessons. Many do, even though equally many don't,


 Well, we could argue about that until the cows come home, I am not sure there is a way to gauge it. I am just speaking from experience. I did not grow up in ski country, so a lot of my childhood and HS friends didn't ski, so some of the people I am describing come from this group. I went to college at a school that attracted students from all over the country and world, and so still others of the people I am describing are people from this group (Southerners, foreign folks). And I went to grad school in the midwest, where there was no legitimate skiing within a 6 hour drive, so the people I am describing are also in this group. Maybe I am unique this way, but I know that if lessons were half as much as they are now for these type of people, I probably know 20 or more people who I think would become habitual skiers within a year or two.



abc said:


> On the other hand, I'm equally unsure those 1 1/2 hr lesson does much good above the intermediate (parallel) level. I think it's more of a cost to result ratio that people found "expensive" beyond the wedge level. It takes more than 1 or 2 lessons to move beyond parallel. At that rate, it becomes expensive. That's why many intermediate don't take lesson any more.



I am not really sure wtf you are saying here. I think it is pretty much a fact that skiers of all levels can benefit from lessons, coaching, clinics, etc... The best skiers in the world are still coached constantly. There is always room to improve. Certainly, for the people I am describing, lessons can only help, if not from a technical standpoint, then from a confidence standpoint alone.


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## trtaylor (Jan 4, 2011)

The small feeder hills here in the east generally have great, multi-week, instruction programs set up for school groups (public/private/home-school). The instructors I know speak very highly of these programs, because generally, you get to work with the same group each week. From the instructor perspective, it is very rewarding work.

These school programs do a great job of developing young, solid intermediate skiers, who are likely to stay in the sport for their lifetime.

Edit: I realize the bigger mountains also have school group programs. One advantage the feeder hills have is night skiing.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 4, 2011)

trtaylor said:


> The small feeder hills here in the east generally have great, multi-week, instruction programs set up for school groups (public/private/home-school). The instructors I know speak very highly of these programs, because generally, you get to work with the same group each week. From the instructor perspective, it is very rewarding work.
> 
> These school programs do a great job of developing young, solid intermediate skiers, who are likely to stay in the sport for their lifetime.
> 
> Edit: I realize the bigger mountains also have school group programs. One advantage the feeder hills have is night skiing.



Yes, I think for children or youngsters, it is a completely different story than for adults.


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## severine (Jan 4, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> Yes, I think for children or youngsters, it is a completely different story than for adults.


How so? Sundown, for example (a feeder hill), has weekly adult programs, day and night:
http://skisundown.com/programs/adult/

This is on top of the regularly available group and private lessons. Same option available as the weekly school groups, you just have to utilize it.


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## trtaylor (Jan 4, 2011)

severine said:


> How so? Sundown, for example (a feeder hill), has weekly adult programs, day and night:
> http://skisundown.com/programs/adult/
> 
> This is on top of the regularly available group and private lessons. Same option available as the weekly school groups, you just have to utilize it.



Good point. Blue Mountain has a 6 week adult racing program, available on Wednesday mornings or Tuesday evenings for $175.

I can't think of a more effective way for an intermediate to raise their skill level.

Yes, there are marketing issues ("racing" term probably turns people off) and there is a disconnect between the ski school and the racing department at most hills. But, Carrie's point is correct, there are affordable programs out there, if people look hard enough.

Here's another example. Blue Mountain also has other multi-week "Premier Programs", such as a four week Intro to Bumps program for $170. I'm sure other hills, like Sundown, have similar offerings.

Yes, these aren't private lessons. If that's what someone wants, then they'll just have to pony up and pay for it.


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## gorgonzola (Jan 4, 2011)

i'm not following this at all... most mountains offer reasonable group lessons for a variety of levels - for both adults and kids and from what I've seen they are way under utilized and become private/semi privates anyway if you plan and play your cards right. i've been a fan of the clinics over the last few years - my wife has done blue's women's workshop for the last 5 or so years and race clinic for the last 2, this will be my 3rd year for race clinic. it's around $170 for 5 or six 2-1/2 hr sessions. just like the kids, we have a blast skiing around with the group and we've both made alot of friends from these and she's progressed incredibly

i think what stops most of the casual skiers from lessons is giving up that 1-1/2 hour of hill time, they feel those 5-6 hours of ski time come at a premium and don't want to "waste" it in lessons...


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## mlctvt (Jan 4, 2011)

This is a great thread. I always wondered why the cost is so high myself. I’m a solid Intermediate skier; I’ve just never taken a lesson mostly due to the high cost. 

I started skiing in High School and skied just a few times per year. My wife’s situation is exactly the same as mine. About five years ago we bought a place at Mount Snow so we’re skiing 30+ days per year now. Each year we think about lessons but never get around to making an appointment. 

My home mountain charges $100 per hour for private lessons for 1 person or $150 per hour for 2 people. I think this is outrageous. I know from talking to instructors that they make meager wages probably $10 to 15 per hour or less. One instructor I rode the lift with a couple of weeks ago was shocked to learn they charges $100 for a 1 hour private lesson. 

If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them.  I think this would still allow the mountain to make a nice profit unless I'm missing something...


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2011)

My understanding the way it goes regarding pay on private lessons is the instructor gets a percentage of the total cost.  Veteran instructors who are requested more often get a higher percentage per lesson than the rookies.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 4, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them.  I think this would still allow the mountain to make a nice profit unless I'm missing something...



By no means am I saying I am right, but when people talk profit, I am guessing they are not talking profit for the learn to ski program, but better yet making a profit so other things within the resort can be kept at a certain price point, can afford insurance, etc.  Perhaps if the ski school was cheaper the price of lift tickets, food, or other things would go even higher.  Now with higher lift tickets, food, etc you are pricing the people out who are eyed as a sure buck vs the possiblility of getting a few more people to sign up for ski school, who would be considered a potential buck.  This is all hypothetical as I have no clue if ski schools even with their current (possible) high profit levels really amount to much at the end of the day.  Perhaps liability insurance for ski schools is also very high so profit margins are not as great as some think.


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## Breeze (Jan 4, 2011)

There are  ways  to maximize the skiing dollar.  One  shops  for  lodging partners  to ski areas and one shops   ski areas/resorts for  best  pricing. If one wants a grand ski weekend  at a Big Name  resort, it won't  be  just the cost of  lessons that will set you back  big  bucks.

To fixate on  ONE  part of the cost (  lessons  alone) and  not other costs ( lodging, meals, rentals, clothing, lift tickets, apres- ski entertainment and travel costs)  seems rather   close-minded. 

Breeze


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## gmcunni (Jan 4, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> . . .I’m a solid Intermediate skier; I’ve just never taken a lesson mostly due to the high cost.
> -snip-
> If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them.



have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.  

Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read  but Okemo as an example -

AM Adult Clinics
Levels 5 & up; ski or board
Every Morning at 8:30 am (75 minutes)
Cost: $50
Black Diamonds  - You enjoy blue and black terrain using a variety of turn shapes. Now it's time to develop the skills and confidence to ski & ride the steeper groomed Black slopes.


i did this twice several years ago when i was getting back into skiing, both times i got a private lesson.  Since i was alone we worked on anything i wanted.  and no waiting in lift lines


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## mlctvt (Jan 4, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.
> 
> Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read  but Okemo as an example -
> 
> ...



Yes, you're not the first person to tell me this . The group rates are much more reasonable aren't they.  I think we'll try it later this year , maybe on a week day or a non-busy weekend.


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## Breeze (Jan 4, 2011)

Wildcat  offers  an Early Bird  Private Lesson, $40 dollars for an hour.   Yes, you have to  be   ready to go at 8:45 on weekends, 9:00 AM weekdays, you have  to reserve in advance, but at that  time of the morning,  you have   the sole  attention of an instructor and you are  on the slopes, not in  line in the lodge or waiting  for  " when we get  to you".  

40 bucks  for a  private  lesson.   How  much  lower  can that  price  go? 

Breeze


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## billski (Jan 4, 2011)

Breeze said:


> Wildcat  offers  an Early Bird  Private Lesson, $40 dollars for an hour.   Yes, you have to  be   ready to go at 8:45 on weekends, 9:00 AM weekdays, you have  to reserve in advance, but at that  time of the morning,  you have   the sole  attention of an instructor and you are  on the slopes, not in  line in the lodge or waiting  for  " when we get  to you".
> 
> 40 bucks  for a  private  lesson.   How  much  lower  can that  price  go?
> 
> Breeze



that's a good deal. Even the small areas are not that low.  This belongs in the cheap thread!


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## catskillman (Jan 4, 2011)

The 9am & 3pm private lessons at Hunter are discounted.  And they should be - at 3 you get skied off conditions, which may be perfect depending what you need to work on, but you get an instructor who is tired, has not had lucng and want't to get to happy hour.

Instructors have to pay for their own certification, annual dues (about $100 annually now) and the cost of a semi annual event requirement which cost about $135 not including you travel & lodging.  And they miss these days at work.

I know the ski school at Windham & Hunter get the jactets highly subsidized from the vendor and take a credit card as a deposit.  If you don't turn it in you are charged for the jacket.  

As far as non ski school individuals giving lessons - I see it from mostly ex instructors.  But - current instructors often hire instructore/examiners from differant mountains to help them pass exams.  They typically meet at a third mountain, with the trainee paying the lift ticket costs and X$.   

An instructor will receive extra pay for a private if you request them (RPL).  At H it is $20 now plus your hourly rate.  RPLs are an industry wide issue for dozens of years   One thing Hunter finally pulled together after 50 years is paying instuctors more for teaching kids.  They lost many many instructors over this issue.


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## Breeze (Jan 4, 2011)

It  pays to dig  a little on websites. If you are  looking  at Wildcat at  all, check out the "lodging partners"  at  Stay and Play.   The  Royalty and the  Town and Country all but let you sleep overnight and eat breakfast  for nothing if you purchase your WC lift  ticket there.  NOTE  I didn't say it wasn't  going to  cost  you  ANYTHING, and yes you are going to throw down  PPDO, but if you can get  lodging, breakfast  AND    all day  full  lift  tickets  for  basically  little more than the cost of the lift  ticket........  who wouldn't  see a benefit?   Heck,  the  Royalty even plays  with  Sunday River. 

Breeze


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## bigbog (Jan 4, 2011)

My $.01 really is, as many onboard here will say, _it's what you bring to the table_...that makes for a great lesson.   With the previous statement said, and with one's mind kept open, I think there's always something valuable...wayy beyond its price, in a lesson that one can learn....if you wanna look hard enough.   Grab the lodging anywhere.
*EDIT:  ...But then I stay up here in Maine, so there is less $$$ spent.


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## abc (Jan 4, 2011)

jaywbigred said:


> ]That being said, I have already stated that I understand that these packages for neverevers do exist. I actually put together a chart in MS Word the other night to compare the costs, but it needs a lot of improving before I post it. What I saw is of these packages is what you might expect: they usually come with multi-day discounts, rentals, and a restricted lift ticket. Given the utility of a restricted ticket, and the commitment required of any multi-day deal that cannot be used in a single weekend, I question just how cheap they really are. Your first day(s) on skis aren't always joyous; to commit to coming back for another weekend and spending all the lodging costs and time again is hard for some folks. Further, if your an adult, spending 2, 3, 4 or more days on the bunny slopes might not seem like a ton of fun, esp. while friends are off skiing/riding the whole mountain. So the restricted lift ticket is a stopping point, but to upgrade costs more money.
> 
> As I said, this IS what I've been talking about. When I said "barrier to entry", I guess what I really mean is "barrier to becoming a dedicated skier." By age 30, I would venture to guess that most (though not all) people that WILL ever try skiing HAVE already tried skiing. A lot of them will not qualify for the never-ever packages. These are people that go skiing once or twice a year. They want to go more, but they can't keep up. They are self conscious about their skills, and about holding the group back. They can ski from the top of the mountain on green and maybe blue trails without help, and often times without falling. But they take their time. They are careful, slow, and petrified by non-perfect conditions (flat light, ice, crowds, etc...). What they need are a few pointers and some confidence boosting. Imo, that comes from a series of lessons, but a series of lessons for these type of people would be hundreds of dollars, on top of their all mountain lift ticket. The cost is so high, that these people often hit the slopes with either antiquated or borrowed equipment (in order to save on renting), which doesn't help the cause.
> 
> The people I describe above come skiing once or twice a year (2-4 days). If they could keep up with the group, they would probably come 5 or 6 times a year or more (10-12 days). Let's face it, for the most part, frustrated, upper level beginners or lower level intermediates do not ski 20 or 30 days a year. They don't take week long vacations to go skiing. They don't stay slopeside/ski-in, ski-out because they often can't or are scared to ski out. To me, if you wanted to increase skier days at your mountain, you'd work at getting these people to be solid intermediates or better, so that they become habitual skiers who ski all the major holidays, a couple weekends on top of that, plus take a week long ski vacation once a year.


I'm not familiar with the demographic you're describing. I learned to ski as an adult, but in a region that have feeder hills. So I did take advantage of whatever lesson packages there were without incurring the high cost of lodging and travel. As far as I was concern, there's no "barrier" to entry. I could have quit after the 3rd try, or after the 15th try. All I wasted were the cost of day lift tickets/package cost, which really wasn't all that horrible at most of the 300' feeder hills.  

I also am not familiar with the limitation you described for the beginer packages. I dabbled at snowboarding while in CA. There, the smaller hills (this case, "smaller" mean 2000' instead of 3000-4000' mountains) offer packages that allows access to the full mountain starting on day 2! In my case, when I got sick of falling & sitting on my butts, I simply ditched the boarding set and went skiing on my skis all over the place!!! 

About the only thing I see that's really "too expensive" is private lessons. That seems to be viewed as a premium product and are charged accordingly. Personally, I learn pretty well (if not better) in a group setting so I really don't have experience to comment on the cost of the privates, or whether their high prices are deterring any potential skiers from reaching their potentials.

Of the people I knew who "tried" skiing but didn't continue, it wasn't so much the cost of the lesson but the crowd, the lines (or the cold) and above all, the overall cost of skiing (now we're talking about travel and lodging cost to the "real" mountains). So from my prospective, I don't get the sense ski lessons are the deal breaker of skier retention.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 4, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.
> 
> Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read  but Okemo as an example -
> 
> ...



I guess to me, $50 for a group lesson that lasts 1 hour and 15 minutes seems "expensive" when you consider that you will likely be tipping (what, at least $10 or $20 bucks?) and that the instructor is making a couple bucks an hour.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just think it is rather high. Asking a non-enthusiast to pony up $140 a day for a lesson and lift ticket on a habitual basis prices a lot of people out. Heck, the lift ticket alone prices a lot of people out!


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## Breeze (Jan 4, 2011)

Hook up  with a bunch of public  school   teachers, score a dozen rooms in a block  in  off  slope lodging ,  in a place that partners   lodging with the lift  ticket.  BYO  crockpot  meals,  BYO libations, designate  hospitality captains  and hospitality suites.    Have    gobs of fun with  a  group of people  bent on having  fun who don't  give a rat's patootie whether  you   even ski at  all.  If you are  there in the spirit of  FUN, thats all that matters.

Mt  Abrams,  Greenwood Maine.   West  side  chair.  Developed  purposely to  recapture the  aged out, returning  after  layoff or injury, or young family.   Awesome  introduction  or re-introduction to  chair-lift served skiing  Views  to  take your  breath away,  fun stuff  aside  from skiing,   many  very friendly hands around.   Not a big  name resort, but dedicated to make  sure you  CAN still  Ski/Ride  and  have  fun  outside of the pressure for  good, better, best...  

 Breeze


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## gmcunni (Jan 4, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> One thing I'm surprised you don't see more of is independent instructors.  I



craigslist- 


> Professional Ski Instruction For 75% less than the reosrts will charge!!! Don't pay 700$ for an all day long private lesson from the resorts. I have 4 years of experience as a ski instuctor and have been skiing my whole life.





> Private alpine ski lessons available at Gunstock Mountain in Gilford, New Hampshire.
> From beginner to advanced levels.
> $50 for 4 hours or $75 for full day. Passes and tickets NOT included.






> Offering lessons at Pico, Killington, Magic, Sugarbush and Bolton and guaranteed cheaper than the mountains prices.
> We are a group of avid skiers and riders who have taught previously and are current teachers or ski patrollers. We are down to earth locals at these mountains and know them very well. Can also act as a guide to first timers in the area and many mountains can be covered.


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## eclaire (Jan 6, 2011)

This guy agrees!

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20101231/NEWS/101239959/1077&ParentProfile=1058


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## Stache (Jan 6, 2011)

KO, I've read this thread and the linked to article.

Here it is, Business 101. Charge as much as you can and still have paying custoners lined up.

And if that Instructor doesn't like what he is being paid then it is a free country and he can go elsewhere and find a boss that agrees with him.

Actually Mts. LOSE money on Privates compared to group lessons. 5 people paying $40 for a 2 hr group lesson equals $200 or $100/hr. If they sell that same Instructor for a one hour private at $80 they do not profit as much. 

Twenty four years ago when I began teaching (and earned my PSIA Certification) I was paid $180/wk for 24 hours of group instruction ($6/hr). I received a 35%-50% commission on the Privates. Last year teaching at a Western MA ski area, that has their own Wind Turbine, I received $8.75/hr with a $5 kicker if I was requested by name for a Private.

I wasn't exactly happy with that (moreso I wasn't happy at being worked 8:30 am - 4:30 pm with nary a pee break nor a chance to eat a bowl of pea soup, never mind a chance to FREE ski). So this season I am teaching somewhere else for more pay with more time to actually utilize that FREE ski pass that comes with the job.

The real sad change over the last two decades is that with the dwindling pay (basically minimum hourly wage and you only get paid for the hours you are actually teaching) the result is we in America have the greatest ski instructors in the world. They are just working at a real job somewhere and buying their own lift tickets and not teaching anymore. Instead you may get some hung over high school dropout who is willing to take the job for the free lift ticket and the warm jacket. The only way to make sure you get your money's worth when you plunk that gold card down on the counter is to DEMAND a CERTIFIED Pro or Demand your money back!

RE: Worker's Comp, at least in NY, Ski Instructors are categorized as TEACHERS and guess what the workers comp rate is for TEACHERS????? Also Teachers in NY are exempt from overtime and minimum wage statutes.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> craigslist-



see, that seems smart.  Only they probably don't get much business advertising through craigslist.  That's why I suggested they get their names in with local lodging properties.


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## Black Phantom (Jan 7, 2011)

Stache said:


> KO, I've read this thread and the linked to article.
> 
> Here it is, Business 101. Charge as much as you can and still have paying custoners lined up.
> 
> ...



PSIA= pretend ski instructors of America.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> PSIA= pretend ski instructors of America.



you know, I hear this often

I know a number of PSIA instructors who absolutely rip, are great instructors and take a lot of pride in what they do.


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## Black Phantom (Jan 7, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> you know, I hear this often
> 
> I know a number of PSIA instructors who absolutely rip, are great instructors and take a lot of pride in what they do.



Unfortunately, the number is small compared to the majority of tools that hide behind 'psia' patches. 

BTW- why are you seeking an instructor if you ski with these ripppers?


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## mister moose (Jan 7, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Unfortunately, the number is small compared to the majority of tools that hide behind 'psia' patches.
> 
> BTW- why are you seeking an instructor if you ski with these ripppers?



In my experience, the number of talented dedicated instructors is far in excess of the number of tools.  The parka does attract tools though.

To the OP, I think what you mean to say is "Why are walk up last minute window rate lessons are so expensive at big resorts?

And the answer is of course the same one for last minute walk up rate window lift tickets at big resorts.  The resort is in it for a profit.

Lessons can be had for far less if you arrange well in advance, and are willing to buy in bulk.  There are ski clubs that offer lessons for free.  There are package lessons that meet once a week at a local feeder hill for a 6 to 8 week stretch.  There are "camps" where you go for a weekend, or longer, and you get all day instruction on a particular venue, like racing or bumps.  Resorts offer very reasonable ski and stay 5 day packages that frequently include a lesson each day.  Smaller hills are cheaper to both ski and take lessons, it doesn't have to be at mega resorts.

Remember, it will take many lessons to get better, and you are never finished.  There is no 1 hour magic lesson that will transform you to über skier.


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## Stache (Jan 10, 2011)

PSIA = :

Poor Skiers Immitating Austrians
Proper Stance Improper Angles 
Probably Still Inside Arguing
PLEASE Say I'm AWESOME
Actually it is a secrect code backward Acronym for
Assholes In Stretch Pants


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## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Unfortunately, the number is small compared to the majority of tools that hide behind 'psia' patches.
> 
> BTW- why are you seeking an instructor if you ski with these ripppers?



Because I have no desire to travel to WISP or Snowshoe, both places that I worked and got to know PSIA instructors.


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## Stache (Jan 10, 2011)

What is the difference between a large cheese pizza and a Ski Instructor?

A Large Cheese Pizza can feed a family of four.





How can you tell who is the Ski Instructor at a cocktail party??

You don't have to, they'll tell you, "I'm a Ski Instructor."


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## ta&idaho (Jan 12, 2011)

Move to Idaho:  $129 beginner package includes two days' beginner area lift tickets, two days' rentals, and unlimited beginner lessons for the rest of the season.

http://www.brundage.com/7577/learn-to-ski-guarantee-offers-unlimited-beginner-lessons-for-just-129/


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## Black Phantom (Jan 12, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Because I have no desire to travel to WISP or Snowshoe, both places that I worked and got to know PSIA instructors.



Good point. I have heard good things about Wisp. 

If you are looking to step it up a notch, check these guys out. You won't be disappointed. :flag:

http://www.epicquest.com/trips/snow/


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## Black Phantom (Jan 12, 2011)

Stache said:


> How can you tell who is the Ski Instructor at a cocktail party??
> 
> _You don't have to_, they'll tell you, "I'm a Ski Instructor."



This


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## WWF-VT (Jan 12, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> Move to Idaho:  $129 beginner package includes two days' beginner area lift tickets, two days' rentals, and unlimited beginner lessons for the rest of the season.
> 
> http://www.brundage.com/7577/learn-to-ski-guarantee-offers-unlimited-beginner-lessons-for-just-129/



Another $100 gets you three days of rentals, lessons and a seasons pass at Sugarbush

http://www.sugarbush.com/ski-ride-school/first-timer-lessons


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