# "Artificial" Open Bowl Skiing in the East



## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing. 

Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing. 

Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm guessing it's impossible from an ecological perspective. Despite public outcry you'd also have to contend with other issues like no wind buffers and erosion especially in the spring. 

I'm guessing most above-tree line places have already "settled in" to being above treeline. To just deforest it would be very tricky to do right, I'm guessing. 

Although it would be kinda fun to have an entire mountain with no trees and fresh powder down all sides :lol:


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm guessing it's impossible from an ecological perspective. Despite public outcry you'd also have to contend with other issues like no wind buffers and erosion especially in the spring.
> 
> I'm guessing most above-tree line places have already "settled in" to being above treeline. To just deforest it would be very tricky to do right, I'm guessing.
> 
> Although it would be kinda fun to have an entire mountain with no trees and fresh powder down all sides :lol:



I guess it probably has to do with ecological reasons, but it's still unclear to me why you can't do it on a small scale. Say, for example, at the top of Snowdon at Killington. It's one of six peaks. You can shave the first 300 or 400 vertical and provide an open bowl skiing experience down one third of the peak. I can see why an entire mountain would be a daunting task, but perhaps it's more doable for just a portion of a peak. 

Agree that it would be fun to have this kind of skiing over here.


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## Puck it (Sep 21, 2011)

They would have every eco society on them.


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## WJenness (Sep 21, 2011)

Puck it said:


> They would have every eco society on them.



Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.

The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.

It makes no sense.

-w


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

WJenness said:


> Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.
> 
> The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.
> 
> ...



This is a good point. Though it's nothing that all out snowmaking can't remedy to some extent! And some eastern ski resorts actually do get a decent amount of powder. Jay, Stowe and Smuggs are three good examples. I'm not proposing we do this at Elk Mountain, PA (nothing against Elk, BTW). Furthermore, the ice will begin to melt in the spring and then we'll have wide open bowl CORN skiing instead of ice skating.


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

WJenness said:


> Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.
> 
> The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.
> 
> ...



Along with that you probably set yourself up for slides and / or avalanche risk as well when you open it up more like that? Just a guess. I'm not a snow physicist :dunce:


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## WJenness (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft...

I'm guessing you don't understand the 'business' side of eastern ski areas, do you?

Doing that would be financial suicide.

-w


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing.
> 
> Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing.
> 
> Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?


 
Two words for Vermont: Act 250.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

WJenness said:


> skiersleft...
> 
> I'm guessing you don't understand the 'business' side of eastern ski areas, do you?
> 
> ...



 So the main reason in your opinion is financial. Fair enough.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it. 

Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it.
> 
> Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?


 
That's right. That area was designed to be open like that back in the 1940's and 1950's to take advantage of the sun.  There are other areas that are open like that to be somewhat like western areas. 

This idea certainly has impacted ski area design. In the 1980's because of consumer demands a lot of trails were widened and flattened for ease of snowmaking and grooming but also because folks demanded 'western' like skiing. Example: Killington's Canyon Area.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it.
> 
> Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?



That was done on purpose as was how wide open they made Main Street at the top of Spruce Peak.  All of Spruce was constructed with an eye towards mimicking the wide open terrain in Austria.  It didn't work well as the lack of trees on Main Street caused all of the natural snow to blow off into the woods.

I think that's your number 1 reason right there as to why there isn't 'artificial bowl skiing' in the East. Snow Retention.  You would have to have topography like Mt. Washington / Tux where the snow gets blown off the top of a ridgeline and deposited into a bowl below.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> That's right. That area was designed to be open like that back in the 1940's and 1950's to take advantage of the sun.  There are other areas that are open like that to be somewhat like western areas.
> 
> This idea certainly has impacted ski area design. In the 1980's because of consumer demands a lot of trails were widened and flattened for ease of snowmaking and grooming but also because folks demanded 'western' like skiing. Example: Killington's Canyon Area.



What other areas in the east are similar to the spruce beginner area in terms of wide expanses of treeless terrain? The Canyon at Killington has wide trails, but not even close to the wideness of spruce peak's beginner trails.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> That was done on purpose as was how wide open they made Main Street at the top of Spruce Peak.  All of Spruce was constructed with an eye towards mimicking the wide open terrain in Austria.  It didn't work well as the lack of trees on Main Street caused all of the natural snow to blow off into the woods.
> 
> I think that's your number 1 reason right there as to why there isn't 'artificial bowl skiing' in the East. Snow Retention.  You would have to have topography like Mt. Washington / Tux where the snow gets blown off the top of a ridgeline and deposited into a bowl below.



Makes sense. Would it be more feasible to do it in the lower part of the mountains then? Less wind, less pitch, more snow retention? Perhaps that's why it more or less works at the bottom part of Spruce and sucks higher up by Main Street.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2011)

Okemo's beginner area is somewhat similar to Spruce.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Makes sense. Would it be more feasible to do it in the lower part of the mountains then? Less wind, less pitch, more snow retention? Perhaps that's why it more or less works at the bottom part of Spruce and sucks higher up by Main Street.



I think it would, but the problem you'd run into would be the added cost of snowmaking to cover that terrain.   Other thing to factor is is there are very few mountains in the East where there is significant steep terrain near the base.  Cannon comes to mind.  Actually Cannon's Front Five are super wide as is and I've often wonder why they did that instead of having narrower runs with glades in between.   Even though low on the mountain, those trails get wind scoured pretty badly.  Narrower trails and more trees would really help the conditions there.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2011)

Learn to ski in the trees.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> What other areas in the east are similar to the spruce beginner area in terms of wide expanses of treeless terrain? The Canyon at Killington has wide trails, but not even close to the wideness of spruce peak's beginner trails.


 
Pretty much Stowe is the only one I can think of at this point and it is because, as DHS said, they were aiming to make it like Austria and make it different from the narrow treed in runs of the rest of the Northeast.  Other "open," or formerly open areas of that era include possibly Cranmore.  

Killington's wider terrain is from a much later era and again was in response to folks who skied out west and wanted wider terrain back east.  So this monstrosity is due to that demand:

Before:







After (far right):


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Learn to ski in the trees.



Thanks for the advice. I already know how to ski in the trees, though. It's actually my favorite kind of skiing. Along with open bowl skiing, of course! Some of us would like to be able to do both without going out west or hiking up to Tucks. Sugarloaf, it seems is the only option.


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2011)

How much fun would 'open bowl' skiing be on man made snow?


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Pretty much Stowe is the only one I can think of at this point and it is because, as DHS said, they were aiming to make it like Austria and make it different from the narrow treed in runs of the rest of the Northeast.  Other "open," or formerly open areas of that era include possibly Cranmore.
> 
> Killington's wider terrain is from a much later era and again was in response to folks who skied out west and wanted wider terrain back east.  So this monstrosity is due to that demand:
> 
> ...



I agree the widening of the trails at Killington is not cool. I see a difference between widening trails and creating an open bowl feeling. Double Dipper may be wide, but it doesn't feel at all like open bowl skiing. Spruce Peak at the bottom feels much more like that. When you widen somewhat but not a lot, you get a weird hybrid that is neither here nor there. Not as cool as narrow fun New England type trails, nor as exhilarating as wide open bowl skiing.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

bvibert said:


> How much fun would 'open bowl' skiing be on man made snow?



Fun. Not as fun as the real stuff, but fun. Just like with any other type of skiing. Natural is always better than manmade, but, hey. It's the east coast. I'd rather have tree skiing with man made than no tree skiing at all. Same with open bowl. I'd rather have some open bowl experience than no experience at all.


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## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2011)

This was planned back in the 70's but never built
http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/cancelledskiareas/NewHampshire/willardbasin.php

"A ravine was to be clearcut to 2,000 wide, to resemble Tuckerman Ravine on nearby Mt. Washington."


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## WWF-VT (Sep 21, 2011)

Need more forest fires.

In 1908, a great forest fire in July burned across the north side of Sugarloaf toward Crocker Mountain with a total loss of about 5500 acres. This fire provided some of the “above treeline” skiing on Sugarloaf Mountain, which we enjoy today

http://www.carrabassettvalley.org/content/4007/Carrabassett_History_/


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> This was planned back in the 70's but never built
> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/cancelledskiareas/NewHampshire/willardbasin.php
> 
> "A ravine was to be clearcut to 2,000 wide, to resemble Tuckerman Ravine on nearby Mt. Washington."



Wow! That's what I'm talking about. Interesting to see that the idea made it to the planning stage, so someone thought it was doable enough to come up with a plan to make it happen. Of course, it didn't happen, but I doubt that what doomed the project was the open bowl proposal.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> Need more forest fires.
> 
> In 1908, a great forest fire in July burned across the north side of Sugarloaf toward Crocker Mountain with a total loss of about 5500 acres. This fire provided some of the “above treeline” skiing on Sugarloaf Mountain, which we enjoy today
> 
> http://www.carrabassettvalley.org/content/4007/Carrabassett_History_/



Interesting stuff.


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## Talisman (Sep 21, 2011)

Mt Snow tried to simulate a western style bowl with the wide cut on "South Bowl".  It suffers from wind scour, lack of snow, lack of pitch and sun scorch.  Prevailing winds will put a swath of snow on the skiers left on the cut.


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## 4aprice (Sep 21, 2011)

I would say the Slides at Whiteface offer somewhat of the bowl type of atmosphere. (when they actually have enough snow to ski on).  I thought I was going to get the chance to ski them last year on the last weekend of March but they were closed:angry:

While I would never want to see the mountain clear cut (I agree with Wa-loaf learn to ski the trees) Plattekill has the perfect bowl shape.  The trails off of F lift at Hunter are kind of a bowl as well.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Probably the best open bowl atmosphere anywhere is Tuckermans... but then again it's not lift-served :lol:


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

4aprice said:


> I would say the Slides at Whiteface offer somewhat of the bowl type of atmosphere. (when they actually have enough snow to ski on).  I thought I was going to get the chance to ski them last year on the last weekend of March but they were closed:angry:
> 
> While I would never want to see the mountain clear cut (I agree with Wa-loaf learn to ski the trees) Plattekill has the perfect bowl shape.  The trails off of F lift at Hunter are kind of a bowl as well.
> 
> ...



Seems like I wasn't clear the first time. I love skiing trees and can ski them pretty well. I just don't think we ought to have to choose between either one or the other. In a perfect world we could do both. 

Never skied the Slides, but plan on doing so this year. Does it really provide somewhat of an open bowl experience?


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

What is that bridge looking thing running across the middle and up the mountain? It looks like some sort of monorail...


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## Highway Star (Sep 21, 2011)

This has got to be one of the worst threads in the history of alpinezone.


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## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> What is that bridge looking thing running across the middle and up the mountain? It looks like some sort of monorail...



yes in the write up part it mentions a monorail. Attitash at one time was going to have one as well.


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> This has got to be one of the worst threads in the history of alpinezone.



Like


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> This has got to be one of the worst threads in the history of alpinezone.



I vote we just dig up Mt. Washington, dump it on top of Cannon, and then smooth it out with a huge bulldozer. It would probably be over 10,000 feet tall and would kick ass :lol:

Don't tell me we can't build a new mt range!


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing.
> 
> Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing.
> 
> Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?



This may be the most ill-informed idea I've read on this forum.

The reasons for why you wouldn't want to do this should be self-evident if you've skied for more than 5 minutes in the East.  Aside from the obvious environmental roadblocks/issues, there is the small matter of wind blowing all of the snow elsewhere.  Classic New England runs were cut in that manner b/c of the problems in the East with snow retention.  You get less snow, more thaws and more wind here vs. the West, so in the days before snowmaking, you needed narrower runs that followed the contours of the mountain so that you had as much shadow and wind protection as possible.

Also, you are incorrect in stating that Sugarloaf is the only resort in the East offering this experience.  With modest hikes (<30 minutes), you can enjoy this experience at both Stowe and Saddleback.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Also, you are incorrect in stating that Sugarloaf is the only resort in the East offering this experience.  With modest hikes (<30 minutes), you can enjoy this experience at both Stowe and Saddleback.



First, be nice. It was just an idea. I assumed it was not doable and just wanted reasons. I have skied more than 5 minutes in the east coast. Actually skied over 80 days last season. 

Second, be fair. I did say that I was looking for lift served open bowl skiing. If you need to hike, it's not lift served. Stowe, Saddleback and Slides at Whiteface don't count then, at least according to the conventional understanding of what counts as lift served terrain.


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Don't you have to hike to get above the treeline at Sugarloaf? 

As in bvibert's avi


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Don't you have to hike to get above the treeline at Sugarloaf?
> 
> As in bvibert's avi



Not supposed to be that way. Although I've never had the pleasure of skiing them, I believe that the deal is you get off the lift, walk literally two minutes to the radio tower and head down. Walking for 2 minutes doesn't count as a hike.


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## snowmonster (Sep 21, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> This may be the most ill-informed idea I've read on this forum.
> 
> The reasons for why you wouldn't want to do this should be self-evident if you've skied for more than 5 minutes in the East.  Aside from the obvious environmental roadblocks/issues, there is the small matter of wind blowing all of the snow elsewhere.  Classic New England runs were cut in that manner b/c of the problems in the East with snow retention.  You get less snow, more thaws and more wind here vs. the West, so in the days before snowmaking, you needed narrower runs that followed the contours of the mountain so that you had as much shadow and wind protection as possible.
> 
> Also, you are incorrect in stating that Sugarloaf is the only resort in the East offering this experience.  With modest hikes (<30 minutes), you can enjoy this experience at both Stowe and Saddleback.



Agree on the misinformed notion of the OP. Technically, only the SL backside snowfields are not lift served since you need to walk a bit from Timberline. The front snowfileds are skiable form the lift. Agree that the backsides of Mansfield and SB would give you the same bowl-like terrain. If you're going into the backcountry looking for open bowls, why limit yourself to Tux. In the same neighborhood, there's Hillman's Highway, the Gulf of Slides, Huntington Ravine, Ammonoosuc Ravine, Burt Ravine, Monroe Brook, King Ravine, the Great Gulf, etc.


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Well you'll have to get out to the AZ Summit 3.0 next Spring and ski 'em then!


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## wa-loaf (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Well you'll have to get out to the AZ Summit 3.0 next Spring and ski 'em then!



Any details on this yet? :grin:


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Well you'll have to get out to the AZ Summit 3.0 next Spring and ski 'em then!



I'll be there. When is it?


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Nothing public yet :lol: ... more details to come probably in the next 4  - 6 weeks. Definitely by the end of Oct.


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## snowmonster (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Well you'll have to get out to the AZ Summit 3.0 next Spring and ski 'em then!



Thanks for putting it all together. Since the Loaf is on my pass, I'll be sending them some love throughout the season.


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## Nick (Sep 21, 2011)

Sigh (way back in 2001)


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## 4aprice (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Seems like I wasn't clear the first time. *I love skiing trees and can ski them pretty well.* I just don't think we ought to have to choose between either one or the other. In a perfect world we could do both.
> 
> Never skied the Slides, but plan on doing so this year. Does it really provide somewhat of an open bowl experience?



Didn't mean to infer that you didn't.  Like someone said before (and this is true of some of the west as well) unless you have a burn area your not going to find much skiable terrain above the tree line. Elevation is not our friend so skiing in the trees is pretty much a sure thing. The Slides are pretty wide at the top and funnel down to thin at the end so yes I say its kind of like a bowl experience.  They are also lift served for at least 3/4's of it.  Problem with Whiteface is it doesn't get the snow that some other places get.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

4aprice said:


> Didn't mean to infer that you didn't.  Like someone said before (and this is true of some of the west as well) unless you have a burn area your not going to find much skiable terrain above the tree line. Elevation is not our friend so skiing in the trees is pretty much a sure thing. The Slides are pretty wide at the top and funnel down to thin at the end so yes I say its kind of like a bowl experience.  They are also lift served for at least 3/4's of it.  Problem with Whiteface is it doesn't get the snow that some other places get.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



No prob. Look forward to skiing the slides this year. When are they usually open? February and March?


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Sigh (way back in 2001)



Breathtaking!


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2011)

Nick said:


> Don't you have to hike to get above the treeline at Sugarloaf?
> 
> As in bvibert's avi





skiersleft said:


> Not supposed to be that way. Although I've never had the pleasure of skiing them, I believe that the deal is you get off the lift, walk literally two minutes to the radio tower and head down. Walking for 2 minutes doesn't count as a hike.



It's a short hike up a bit of a pitch.  Somewhere between a walk and a hike, IMHO.  It's not like you're skating to them from the lift.  Probably took me a bit more than 2 minutes, but I'm out of shape.  The thing that sucks is that you can't lap them.  I don't know of any easy way to ski the backside, and then get back to the lift that services them without taking at least one other lift, 2 if you hit up Brackett.  Then again I've only skied there twice, so I might be missing something.


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 21, 2011)

bvibert said:


> It's a short hike up a bit of a pitch.  Somewhere between a walk and a hike, IMHO.  It's not like you're skating to them from the lift.  Probably took me a bit more than 2 minutes, but I'm out of shape.  The thing that sucks is that you can't lap them.  I don't know of any easy way to ski the backside, and then get back to the lift that services them without taking at least one other lift, 2 if you hit up Brackett.  Then again I've only skied there twice, so I might be missing something.



If you have to take off your skis, it's a hike.  Full stop.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If you have to take off your skis, it's a hike.  Full stop.



Except if you have to ride a gondola, in which case you always take your skis off.

P.S. It's a joke, please don't crap all over me claiming that this is totally illogical, doesn't pass the smell test and misses the point you were trying to make.


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If you have to take off your skis, it's a hike.  Full stop.



Works for me, I just didn't want everyone calling me a wuss for thinking heading uphill for a few minutes with your skis over your back was a hike.  :lol:  It certainly isn't a ton of work.


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 21, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Works for me, I just didn't want everyone calling me a wuss for thinking heading uphill for a few minutes with your skis over your back was a hike.  :lol:  It certainly isn't a ton of work.



Wuss


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## riverc0il (Sep 21, 2011)

There is no lift serviced "bowl" skiing in the east. Sugarloaf offers the only lift serviced above tree line skiing. It is a big difference between the terrain being convex vs concave. As I recall, Loaf's above tree line was the result of a fire though they still needed to hack out trails.

The reasons it isn't done more often are varied but include financial, environmental, character, and snow quality.

It isn't worth it for ski areas to clear cut the tops of mountains. The limited draw wouldn't offset the huge financial loss. Additionally, less trees means more wind which means more wind holds which means guests might not want to visit as much. Note that Loaf has a separate additional lift that is pretty much limited to servicing the above tree line terrain. It isn't a huge deal if Timberline goes on wind hold if the rest of the mountain is spinning. An additional lift for most places would be financially disastrous and if a lift already goes to the summit then hello wind hold.

Environmental is self evident. There are restrictions regarding what can be cut at most resorts.

Character is also important. You would loose trails and a man made clear cut could be viewed as an eye sore.

Snow quality would be total crap. The additional wind would mean that the terrain would be closed more often than not even with snow making (which would just blow clear off the mountain due to winds any ways). I'm not overly impressed with Loaf's groomed summit runs. I dare say they suck every time I have skied them. Probably great in the spring but what about the other 83% of the year? Crap.

It just doesn't make sense. New England skiing is all about working with the terrain. If you want bowl skiing in the east, there are a dozen of them on Mount Washington. Have at em'.


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> There is no lift serviced "bowl" skiing in the east. Sugarloaf offers the only lift serviced above tree line skiing. It is a big difference between the terrain being convex vs concave. As I recall, Loaf's above tree line was the result of a fire though they still needed to hack out trails.
> 
> The reasons it isn't done more often are varied but include financial, environmental, character, and snow quality.
> 
> ...



Good answer. Kind of summarizes all of the points made here. Without the meanness, of course!


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## Black Phantom (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Good answer. Kind of summarizes all of the points made here. Without the meanness, of course!



Do you have any difficulty loading HS Lifts?


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## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Do you have any difficulty loading HS Lifts?



Are you junior?


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## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 21, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> This has got to be one of the worst threads in the history of alpinezone.



Agreed!


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Are you junior?



No he is not Junior :lol:


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## mediamogul (Sep 21, 2011)

The problem is that we don't have the same weather patterns in the east as those that support bowl skiing out west. It would be non stop ice all the time. 

Also, imagine if K cut all the trees from escapade to royal flush. It would be one giant horrendous sheet of ice. Double dipper is bad enough.

I don't see the big attraction.


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## bvibert (Sep 21, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Sugarloaf offers the only lift serviced above tree line skiing. It is a big difference between the terrain being convex vs concave.



Yup, there's definitely not much that's concave or bowl like about the terrain up there.  I was going to mention that, but it seemed the OP was really more interested in wide open, above tree line, skiing vs actual bowl skiing.


----------



## AndyEich (Sep 21, 2011)

Blue Knob, PA created an artificial bowl:
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=stembogan+bowl&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=vsaYtmxwao0hjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php%3Farticle_id%3D1244%26mode%3Drss&docid=6GDoNJuISlXQiM&w=600&h=400&ei=NZN6TsrRGIPG0AGW9pSkAg&zoom=1

Keep in mind that this is in the middle of Pennsylvania.  Simply crazy.

They have had some erosion problems, but I'm not sure how severe they are.


----------



## Geoff (Sep 21, 2011)

WJenness said:


> The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.



This.

If you're going to cut a big wide bowl, you need to do it on the lower mountain out of the wind.

And Sugarloaf ain't a western-style bowl.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2011)

What about Jordan 'Bowl' at Sunday River   :lol:


----------



## snoseek (Sep 21, 2011)

I would just accept eastern skiing for what it is. It can be very good, just different. 

The bowls at my goto mtn out west receive 400+ inches of snow average and sometimes stay bony as hell till February. Wind speeds are about the same as somewhere like Cannon/Loaf ect.....it would take at much more snow than most areas in NE get to fill in all that granite. The few areas like the snowfields take everything mother nature has and a little luck just to open for a few days. This would be a complete waste of resources and the end result would be horrible. Skinny trails and trees are where its at.

Just fly or move west if you want to ski open bowls


----------



## snoseek (Sep 21, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> What about Jordan 'Bowl' at Sunday River   :lol:



The "bowl" part has nothing to do with skiing:beer:


----------



## ALLSKIING (Sep 21, 2011)

AndyEich said:


> Blue Knob, PA created an artificial bowl:
> http://www.google.com/imgres?q=stembogan+bowl&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=vsaYtmxwao0hjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php%3Farticle_id%3D1244%26mode%3Drss&docid=6GDoNJuISlXQiM&w=600&h=400&ei=NZN6TsrRGIPG0AGW9pSkAg&zoom=1
> 
> Keep in mind that this is in the middle of Pennsylvania.  Simply crazy.
> ...


Looks like a good little hill....but 6 hrs from me...Not going to happen


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 21, 2011)

All this talk about artificial bowl skiing reminded me of what some good ole boys tried to do up at Big Jay a few years back.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 21, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing.
> 
> Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing.
> 
> Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?



Just think about this, those wide freeways you speak of, how good are they really?  Imgaine those multiplied by oh I don't know 300 or 400 hundred or more.  I think most would agree that while good on a powder day (only for a little while) wide trails are one of those things a lot of mountains wish they could fix.  Think how much more snowmaking those trails need, think how much more wind they recieve, think how much more icy they get then those classic NE trails you ski.  I remember growing up and riding at Big Squaw, which rarely used snowmaking, recived less snow then Sugarloaf and the trails were usually in 10 times better shape then any of the wide freeways at Sugarloaf during dry spells and days after a powder day.


----------



## MadPadraic (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> Agree on the misinformed notion of the OP. Technically, only the SL backside snowfields are not lift served since you need to walk a bit from Timberline. The front snowfileds are skiable form the lift. Agree that the backsides of Mansfield and SB would give you the same bowl-like terrain. If you're going into the backcountry looking for open bowls, why limit yourself to Tux. In the same neighborhood, there's Hillman's Highway, the Gulf of Slides, Huntington Ravine, Ammonoosuc Ravine, Burt Ravine, Monroe Brook, King Ravine, the Great Gulf, etc.



You are too cool to hang with.  Take me to stink bug gully next year. Please!

Anyway... I don't consider sugarloaf's snowfields to be bowl-like. For me, to be bowl-like, it has to be long and concave as you are facing it from the lift. In other words, it has to look like the inside of a bowl. It should start out super steep and then then mellow as you dig in hard toe-side and rip across the face. 

By the way, why don't more Western resorts have trails that emulate Misery Whip?


----------



## TheBEast (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> All this talk about artificial bowl skiing reminded me of what some good ole boys tried to do up at Big Jay a few years back.



And found themselves in jail.......


----------



## TheBEast (Sep 22, 2011)

MadPadraic said:


> By the way, why don't more Western resorts have trails that emulate Misery Whip?



That trail kicks some serious a$$!!


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

TheBEast said:


> And found themselves in jail.......



I'm gonna have to google that...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm gonna have to google that...



Riverc0il has a really good collection of info on the Big Jay cut here:

http://www.thesnowway.com/category/big-jay-coverage


Another good link here:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/legacy/slideshows/081007jay/index.html


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm gonna have to google that...



Nick-

I think you need a 'skiing' tutor.:razz:  billski will homeskool you providing a fast paced environment designed around your learning needs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm gonna have to google that...


 
Pretty simple facts.  Two morons couldn't ski the natural terrain on Big Jay and decided that they needed to cut their own trail.  A few hikes, two chainsaws, and about 300 down trees later, they cut a long wide swath down protected state forestland and now are facing hefty fines and jail time.


----------



## bvibert (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm gonna have to google that...





from_the_NEK said:


> Riverc0il has a really good collection of info on the Big Jay cut here:
> 
> http://www.thesnowway.com/category/big-jay-coverage
> 
> ...



We had a thread or two on it ourselves:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=17268&highlight=big+jay+cut


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Pretty simple facts.  Two morons couldn't ski the natural terrain on Big Jay and decided that they needed to cut their own trail.  A few hikes, two chainsaws, and about 300 down trees later, they cut a long wide swath down protected state forestland and now are facing hefty fines and jail time.



Figured it was that simple. I read some of the comments by Harvey and Riverc0il over on the Snowway post that was linked to earlier. 

Without being an ecologist in general I think it's like anything else - moderation is key right? Cutting down a few trees is not going to destroy anything. Widespread removal of vegetation though causes runoff, erosion, etc. 

are there any photos of what they did?


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

Ignore that the video above had it covered from Burlington Free Press.


Sooo..... has anyone skied it, :uzi:


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Ignore that the video above had it covered from Burlington Free Press.
> 
> 
> Sooo..... has anyone skied it, :uzi:



enroll in billski's course asap.


----------



## David Metsky (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Sooo..... has anyone skied it, :uzi:


Why bother?  The skiing where they didn't cut is much better.


----------



## Gnarcissaro (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Sooo..... has anyone skied it, :uzi:



It is likely grown up with saplings and complete shit. As Metsky said, you don't need a trail out there, things are open and beautiful as is. The illegal trail ruined that particular swath in the long run.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

An incredibly active thread despite being the stupidest thread ever created. I'll soon create the second stupidest thread ever created with the hope that people will be drawn to it as much as they were to this one. By the way, kudos to blue knob, PA for creating an artificial bowl. Seems like it's a wildly popular trail over there. Their skiers, like us, seem to really be drawn to stupid things.


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

Gnarcissaro said:


> It is likely grown up with saplings and complete shit. As Metsky said, you don't need a trail out there, things are open and beautiful as is. The illegal trail ruined that particular swath in the long run.



Yeah I'm wondering what it's like today after 4 years. Should be fresh growth. 

Still isn't it ironic that when we have slides at whiteface, it's exciting for the runs to change, but then tragic here?  

Anyway. I've never done just backcountry skiing, other than Tucks. I'd love to try it this year.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Yeah I'm wondering what it's like today after 4 years. Should be fresh growth.
> 
> Still isn't it ironic that when we have slides at whiteface, it's exciting for the runs to change, but then tragic here?
> 
> Anyway. I've never done just backcountry skiing, other than Tucks. I'd love to try it this year.



Are you serious?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Yeah I'm wondering what it's like today after 4 years. Should be fresh growth.
> 
> Still isn't it ironic that when we have slides at whiteface, it's exciting for the runs to change, but then tragic here?
> 
> Anyway. I've never done just backcountry skiing, other than Tucks. I'd love to try it this year.


 
The guys cut a trail without permission on protected state habitat. It was 3/4 a mile long and 60 feet wide in some areas. The slide, on the otherhand, was a natural act.  There is quite a difference.


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> The guys cut a trail without permission on protected state habitat. It was 3/4 a mile long and 60 feet wide in some areas. The slide, on the otherhand, was a natural act.  There is quite a difference.



I know ... and I'm not defending what the guys did. All I'm saying is the result is fairly similar, isn't it? A swath of trees and vegetation gone?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I know ... and I'm not defending what the guys did. All I'm saying is the result is fairly similar, isn't it? A swath of trees and vegetation gone?



Ask the two guys that made the cut if it was similar. I am sure they had some time to think about it.  :roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> I know ... and I'm not defending what the guys did. All I'm saying is the result is fairly similar, isn't it? A swath of trees and vegetation gone?


 
On the very abstract level I guess.  But looking at the actions, one upshot of their actions were that other law abiding skiers and riders were prevented from accessing Big Jay for their own off piste pursuits.  There is a huge debate going on regarding if pruning is proper or not.


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> On the very abstract level I guess.  But looking at the actions, one upshot of their actions were that other law abiding skiers and riders were prevented from accessing Big Jay for their own off piste pursuits.  There is a huge debate going on regarding if pruning is proper or not.



I'm just thinking out loud here - trust me I in no way condone the action of cutting a 200,000 square foot clearing on the side of a mountain. I was thining very abstractly. :beer:


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> On the very abstract level I guess.  But looking at the actions, one upshot of their actions were that other law abiding skiers and riders were prevented from accessing Big Jay for their own off piste pursuits.  There is a huge debate going on regarding if pruning is proper or not.



Yeah I gathered that from the onthesnow article. I see it like normal, being reasonable with it (vs. wholesale deforestation). 

Did you mean to say a negative of it was other skiers / riders being prevented from accessing Big Jay?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Did you mean to say a negative of it was other skiers / riders being prevented from accessing Big Jay?


 
Big Jay was closed by the GMC and the State for at least a while to allow the area to recover.


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## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Big Jay was closed by the GMC and the State for at least a while to allow the area to recover.



Yeah, that's what I thought. You said an "upshot" of their actions was it being shut down :smash:


----------



## marcski (Sep 22, 2011)

No offense, but with the exception of the quoted post below, this entire thread is utter stupidity.   Clear cut the top of a mountain?  Like, WTF?  




wa-loaf said:


> Learn to ski in the trees.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought. You said an "upshot" of their actions was it being shut down :smash:


 
Right.  As a result of the two illegal cutters, all skiers, riders, and hikers were prevented from accessing Big Jay by the footpath from Jay Peak.


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  As a result of the two illegal cutters, all skiers, riders, and hikers were prevented from accessing Big Jay by the footpath from Jay Peak.



:blink:

Isn't "upshot" a good thing? 

IOW it's like saying, "On the plus side, at least all skiers riders and hikers were prevented from accessing Big Jay"


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

Maybe I'm crazy. 

I guess it just means "outcome". I thought it meant, "On the bright side"

_The final or eventual outcome or conclusion of a discussion, action, or series of events_


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> :blink:
> 
> Isn't "upshot" a good thing?
> 
> IOW it's like saying, "On the plus side, at least all skiers riders and hikers were prevented from accessing Big Jay"



Upshot just means the "end result" "the outcome", I think, or at least that is the way I use it...maybe I have been using it wrong all these years.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick, I don't mean to be harsh but, man, please try to learn about the different issues surrounding these things -- and skiing in the Northeast -- before chiming in. It's one thing if us armchair quarterbacks mouth off, it's quite another when the owner of this site spews.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 22, 2011)

MadPadraic said:


> You are too cool to hang with.  Take me to stink bug gully next year. Please!
> 
> Anyway... I don't consider sugarloaf's snowfields to be bowl-like. For me, to be bowl-like, it has to be long and concave as you are facing it from the lift. In other words, it has to look like the inside of a bowl. It should start out super steep and then then mellow as you dig in hard toe-side and rip across the face.
> 
> By the way, why don't more Western resorts have trails that emulate Misery Whip?



Hahaha. I think we need to have more beers. Let's hope Stink Bug is still in when the Auto Road opens. I don't think I have the energy to hike there next year.

Misery Whip last season was the bomb! I still have snoseek's ski poles in the car.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

Bring snoseek's poles to Utah when you come out


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

In this case, the upshot was bad.  Very bad.  I will defer to Riv or another Jay regular as to if it is reopened.


----------



## wa-loaf (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> :blink:
> 
> Isn't "upshot" a good thing?



I always took "upshot" to mean a positive result.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Bring snoseek's poles to Utah when you come out


I intend to return his poles at Sunday River opening day -- which should be in about three weeks.=)


thetrailboss said:


> In this case, the upshot was bad.  Very bad.  I will defer to Riv or another Jay regular as to if it is reopened.


I think you can ski out to Big Jay from the resort. However, you are not supposed to ski on The Scar, which is now a regeneration zone.

By the way, in case we haven't discussed the difference between the changes at the Slides and Big Jay. In the former, landslide occured in the natural order of things because that's what mountains do. In the latter, two guys with power tools. If you can't tell the difference, I guess I'll have to come over and draw a schematic.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> I intend to return his poles at Sunday River opening day -- which should be in about three weeks.=)


 
Ha!  Hopefully sooner!


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 22, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> An incredibly active thread despite being the stupidest thread ever created. I'll soon create the second stupidest thread ever created with the hope that people will be drawn to it as much as they were to this one. By the way, kudos to blue knob, PA for creating an artificial bowl. Seems like it's a wildly popular trail over there. Their skiers, like us, seem to really be drawn to stupid things.



I wouldn't be too eager to pat yourself on the back or put this thread on your resume.  

Michelle Bachman gets a lot of press coverage and generates a lot of buzz for saying stupid things like the HPV vaccine is dangerous for young girls.  I'm not sure that's the sort of model you want to emulate.  

Seriously - there's 11 pages in this thread, and nowhere is there substantive discussion of your "idea".  It's essentially 7 pages of people (rightly) shooting you down, 2 pages on the Big Jay cut, and 2 pages on the definition of the word "upshot".  That's a pretty low bar as a definition of success.


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

I'd like to spend a page or two talking about putting forum threads on resumes.... :lol:


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> Nick, I don't mean to be harsh but, man, *please try to learn about the different issues surrounding these things* -- and skiing in the Northeast -- before chiming in. It's one thing if us armchair quarterbacks mouth off, it's quite another when the owner of this site spews.



That's basically what I'm doing.... :dunce:


----------



## Nick (Sep 22, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I always took "upshot" to mean a positive result.



Yeah, ditto> guess i learned something new today.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 22, 2011)

*Attn: Nick*



Nick said:


> That's basically what I'm doing.... :dunce:



You need to enroll in billski's workshop.


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## threecy (Sep 22, 2011)

As of this spring, one can ski to Big Jay, but the entrance of the illegal cut is posted.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> Figured it was that simple. I read some of the comments by Harvey and Riverc0il over on the Snowway post that was linked to earlier.
> 
> Without being an ecologist in general I think it's like anything else - moderation is key right? Cutting down a few trees is not going to destroy anything. Widespread removal of vegetation though causes runoff, erosion, etc.
> 
> are there any photos of what they did?


There used to be pics on Burlington Free Press's site. Not sure if they are still there. The trail was pretty wide (for an illegal BC cut)... I mean it was definitely a trail, not thinned out woods which is what normally goes on. Thinning out underbrush and dead trees generally if done correctly has little to no environmental effect. It all grows back eventually any ways, unless there is a long term erosion problem... which would signify too much cutting.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Big Jay was closed by the GMC and the State for at least a while to allow the area to recover.


It was closed because they got their panties in a knot and wanted to make a point. The fact is that when a certain amount of snow has piled up on top of that area, there would have been no damage. The damage would have been cause by erosion when the snow melted or early season skiing (perhaps). But they shut it down for an entire season pretty much just to prove a point. Skiing that slide in mid-winter isn't going to hurt anything. Though on philosophical grounds, I have and will continue to avoid it.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> Nick, I don't mean to be harsh but, man, please try to learn about the different issues surrounding these things -- and skiing in the Northeast -- before chiming in. It's one thing if us armchair quarterbacks mouth off, it's quite another when the owner of this site spews.


Wow, I am not sure what issue you are referring to here? Did I miss something or did something get deleted? :blink:

And just like Greg, I think it is great if the owner of the site let's it rip just like the rest of us.

:beer:


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 22, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> In this case, the upshot was bad.  Very bad.  I will defer to Riv or another Jay regular as to if it is reopened.


As I recall, it was only completely closed for one season. Now, as I recall, there is a "gate" that is opened or closed as snow conditions allow. Though I have not been out there since before the cut, so I am not currently up to date on access.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 22, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, I am not sure what issue you are referring to here? Did I miss something or did something get deleted? :blink:
> 
> And just like Greg, I think it is great if the owner of the site let's it rip just like the rest of us.
> 
> :beer:


No deletion. Just the monster going off. I hope it's all cleared up. Otherwise, well, it's been great knowin' ya'll!


riverc0il said:


> As I recall, it was only completely closed for one season. Now, as I recall, there is a "gate" that is opened or closed as snow conditions allow.


This is correct. Riv, perhaps we should round up Pat and a certain young snowboarder for an expedition in the wilder reaches of northern Vermont.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 22, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> This is correct. Riv, perhaps we should round up Pat and a certain young snowboarder for an expedition in the wilder reaches of northern Vermont.


That works for me. The only reason I have been out that way in a few years is I normally ski by myself and never have a car transport. Unlike other local sidecountry options, you really can't do Big Jay without a car spot (or thumbing it which I prefer not to do).


----------



## David Metsky (Sep 22, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> There used to be pics on Burlington Free Press's site.



http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/legacy/slideshows/081007jay/index.html

Enjoy.  Access to Big Jay from the ski area (via an earlier illegally cut trail, that's yet another story) is open, but I usually skin up from the road. There are many places to ski back there, not all accessible from the ridge.  I haven't skied the Scar, or Jailbird Glade as it is sometimes called.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 22, 2011)

Jailbird Glade - I like it! I prefer the cheapskate route from the bottom.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I wouldn't be too eager to pat yourself on the back or put this thread on your resume.
> 
> Michelle Bachman gets a lot of press coverage and generates a lot of buzz for saying stupid things like the HPV vaccine is dangerous for young girls.  I'm not sure that's the sort of model you want to emulate.
> 
> Seriously - there's 11 pages in this thread, and nowhere is there substantive discussion of your "idea".  It's essentially 7 pages of people (rightly) shooting you down, 2 pages on the Big Jay cut, and 2 pages on the definition of the word "upshot".  That's a pretty low bar as a definition of success.



There you go again being mean, Tim's Wood. Be nice for once. Your definition of success clearly is shooting down people who are trying to have a conversation, but do it nicely, that's all I ask.


----------



## David Metsky (Sep 22, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> There you go again being mean


If you think that was mean, perhaps this isn't the right message board for you.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

David Metsky said:


> If you think that was mean, perhaps this isn't the right message board for you.



Can we spend two pages discussing whether there is meanness behind the woodmeister's madness?


----------



## skiahman (Sep 22, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Can we spend two pages discussing whether there is meanness behind the woodmeister's madness?



I gotta say yes to this. Two more pages on what is without doubt one of the stupidest threads ever. That'll make 15. Can we get 20?


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

skiahman said:


> I gotta say yes to this. Two more pages on what is without doubt one of the COOLEST threads ever. That'll make 15. Can we get 20?



Fixed it for ya!


----------



## skiahman (Sep 22, 2011)

Hey Mods-Skiersleft is messing with my quote. Is that legit? Ban the mofo!!


----------



## MadPadraic (Sep 22, 2011)

marcski said:


> No offense, but with the exception of the quoted post below, this entire thread is utter stupidity.   Clear cut the top of a mountain?  Like, WTF?



I thought we already established that the clear cut should be well below the top of the mountain. Who's stupid now?


----------



## ALLSKIING (Sep 22, 2011)

skiahman said:


> Hey Mods-Skiersleft is messing with my quote. Is that legit? Ban the mofo!!


If you can dish it ya got to take it :lol:


----------



## Gnarcissaro (Sep 22, 2011)

Skiersleft, I am now dumber for reading even the first post in this multi-page shitshow. You are awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 22, 2011)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Skiersleft, I am now dumber for reading even the first post in this multi-page shitshow. You are awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.



You feel like you need a shower, don't you!


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

MadPadraic said:


> I thought we already established that the clear cut should be well below the top of the mountain. Who's stupid now?



That's right. Get with the program. It was established early on that open bowl type skiing in the east is only feasible if you cut well below the summit. That's what Blue Knob, PA did with Stembogen Bowl. Check out pictures and a description of it here:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=988


----------



## Gnarcissaro (Sep 22, 2011)

Puck it said:


> You feel like you need a shower, don't you!



Yes, something like this @ the 50 second mark.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 22, 2011)

Best thread ever. 14 pages in one day and it's not about Sunday River vs. Killington or about opening day. People are just jealous that I succeeded in drawing so many people in with one of my first threads.

Admit it, reading about artificial open bowl skiing is a guilty pleasure akin to watching Rocky 4.


----------



## MadPadraic (Sep 22, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Best thread ever. 14 pages in one day and it's not about Sunday River vs. Killington or about opening day. People are just jealous that I succeeded in drawing so many people in with one of my first threads.
> 
> Admit it, reading about artificial open bowl skiing is a guilty pleasure akin to watching Rocky 4.



the best thread ever was earlier this summer. this is the nicky bendtner of threads.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 22, 2011)

> Two more pages on what is without doubt one of the COOLEST threads ever. That'll make 15. Can we get 20?






skiersleft said:


> Fixed it for ya!



Skiersleft.  Brother from a different mother of Highwaystar.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 23, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Best thread ever. 14 pages in one day and it's not about Sunday River vs. Killington or about opening day. People are just jealous that I succeeded in drawing so many people in with one of my first threads.
> 
> Admit it, reading about artificial open bowl skiing is a guilty pleasure akin to watching Rocky 4.


Now you are definitely trolling. :lol:


----------



## andyzee (Sep 23, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Two words for Vermont: Act 250.



I think that's four words, act-two-hundred-fifty, :razz:

Or shortened:

act-two-fifty, three words.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

andyzee said:


> I think that's four words, act-two-hundred-fifty, :razz:
> 
> Or shortened:
> 
> act-two-fifty, three words.



Your love of nature is unparallelled by any on this board. :beer:


----------



## WWF-VT (Sep 23, 2011)

Will you have any new healthy additions to your menu? Are/will you be using locally sourced meat and produce?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Best thread ever. 14 pages in one day and it's not about Sunday River vs. Killington or about opening day. People are just jealous that I succeeded in drawing so many people in with one of my first threads.
> 
> Admit it, reading about artificial open bowl skiing is a guilty pleasure akin to watching Rocky 4.



Do you have any advice on loading a chairlift? Perhaps you could start a thread on this subject and provide some deep analysis.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> Will you have any new healthy additions to your menu? Are/will you be using locally sourced meat and produce?


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 23, 2011)

Just wanted to post in this now historic thread. Carry on, gents!


----------



## bvibert (Sep 23, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> Just wanted to post in this now historic thread. Carry on, gents!



Years from now people will talk about where they were when they first came across this thread...


----------



## Nick (Sep 23, 2011)

Frame it


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Nick said:


> Frame it



*RACK IT!*


----------



## Nick (Sep 23, 2011)




----------



## Geoff (Sep 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> What about Jordan 'Bowl' at Sunday River   :lol:



Yeah.   Sunday River is way better than Sugarloaf.  It has a bowl.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 23, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Years from now people will talk about where they were when they first came across this thread...



Just be proud that you were a part of it.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Do you have any advice on loading a chairlift? Perhaps you could start a thread on this subject and provide some deep analysis.



Junior? Junior's protege?


----------



## skiahman (Sep 23, 2011)

I remember where I was when it was 13 pages. And I remember where I was when it hit 16 pages. Wonder where I'll be when it hits 20 pages. Don't you too?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

This not an epic thread.  It is only 4 pages on my screen. Up your post number to be viewed.  This is an epic thread.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=94606&page=24&highlight=cannon


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> This not an epic thread.  It is only 4 pages on my screen. Up your post number to be viewed.  This is an epic thread.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=94606&page=24&highlight=cannon



Where are you having cocktails this evening, my vertically challenged little buddy? Bruins home game tonight vs. Islanders.:beer:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Where are you having cocktails this evening, my vertically challenged little buddy? Bruins home game tonight vs. Islanders.:beer:


 
Grilling some Buffalo steak and cocktails at home.  However, cocktails tomorrow may be at the institution in Andover or the Common Man in Windham.  I have a craving for escargot.


----------



## Nick (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> This not an epic thread.  It is only 4 pages on my screen. Up your post number to be viewed.  This is an epic thread.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=94606&page=24&highlight=cannon



yeah I was gonna say mine is set on max too. I think i'm at ~4 pages also.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Grilling some Buffalo steak and cocktails at home.  However, cocktails tomorrow may be at the institution in Andover or the Common Man in Windham.  I have a craving for escargot.



Man, I used to hang out there when it was first built. I think they got a pass on the 93 rebuild.  The snails are good, but heavy.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Man, I used to hang out there when it was first built. I think they got a pass on the 93 rebuild. The snails are good, but heavy.


 
They were supposed to relocate, but they were allowed to stay.  They are relly close to the new road. Really close.  Snails are heart stopping with all of the butter but great for dipping the bread in.  Also, they have Tuckerman's Pale Ale.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> They were supposed to relocate, but they were allowed to stay.  They are relly close to the new road. Really close.  Snails are heart stopping with all of the butter but great for dipping the bread in.  Also, they have Tuckerman's Pale Ale.



Aha, your beloved Tuckerman's Pale Ale. You ever been to the original CM in Ashland? It used to be very cool. Like everything else, things done changed.

I love the pic of the Bowl on the bottle.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Aha, your beloved Tuckerman's Pale Ale. You ever been to the original CM in Ashland? It used to be very cool. Like everything else, things done changed.
> 
> I love the pic of the Bowl on the bottle.


 
In matter of fact, yes I have.  We ate there on the way back form a weekend stay at the Jack o' Latern condos for skiing.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> In matter of fact, yes I have.  We ate there on the way back form a weekend stay at the Jack o' Latern condos for skiing.



Did you wear your ski pants in?  A friend of mine used to manage the J.  

I need to get to Cannon for an Ewok tour day. You know of any discounts?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Did you wear your ski pants in? A friend of mine used to manage the J.
> 
> I need to get to Cannon for an Ewok tour day. You know of any discounts?


 

No, I wear shorts after.  Tues and Thurs are 2 fers at my institution!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> No, I wear shorts after.  Tues and Thurs are 2 fers at my institution!



That sounds a bit steep. I am going to keep checking billski's beloved discount section for a better deal. 

Plus, I want to ride the Big Box. It has been a while.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> That sounds a bit steep. I am going to keep checking billski's beloved discount section for a better deal.
> 
> Plus, I want to ride the Big Box. It has been a while.


 
$34 is steep!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

bigbog said:


> Man...to smooth it all out to some extent...what gives the feeling of a bowl = would take a lot of dynamite.  Could just see the crowd at MRG putting up with the dynamiting of Mansfield...



This is East Coast bowl skiing.  

I reckon that the OP would need some Depends if she could ever get herself up there.


----------



## WJenness (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Bruins home game tonight vs. Islanders.:beer:



A friend has half season tickets in the club seats... She's in London for the weekend, so she gave me her tickets... Should be a fun time.

I <3 Hockey.

-w


----------



## bigbog (Sep 23, 2011)

Of course Tux is, terrific bowl/chute stuff.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> This is East Coast bowl skiing.
> 
> I reckon that the OP would need some Depends if she could ever get herself up there.



Hooded 6-pack to the upper snowfields. Oh and a gondi up from Pinkham. :wink:


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 23, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Grilling some Buffalo steak and cocktails at home.  However, cocktails tomorrow may be at the institution in Andover or the Common Man in Windham.  I have a craving for escargot.



I need to hit the Common Man up in Claremont this week.  My wife and I got a discount book from the local high school fundraiser that has buy 1 entree get the second free for everyday but Saturday.  Really works out quite well.  Plus I love getting Tuckerman's on tap.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 23, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> This is East Coast bowl skiing.
> 
> I reckon that the OP would need some Depends if she could ever get herself up there.



Technically, not Tux itself but excellent skiing nonetheless.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2011)

WJenness said:


> A friend has half season tickets in the club seats... She's in London for the weekend, so she gave me her tickets... Should be a fun time.
> 
> I <3 Hockey.
> 
> -w



Looks like you caught a good game. Did you get to see Dougie play before he got shipped back to Juniors?


----------



## bobbutts (Sep 25, 2011)

open areas are overrated
trees and rocks give visual perspective and protect the snow from exposure

I wish NE has more naturally spaced trees.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 25, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> open areas are overrated trees and rocks give visual perspective and protect the snow from exposure
> 
> I wish NE has more naturally spaced trees.



Like waterskiing at dawn, sking down a 5 acre powder filled bowl has to be experienced to be appreciated.  If you have never felt the zero G entry off the cornice, the fluid immersion of skis planing as they accelerate, the limitless expanse beneath you, the speed tugging at every part of you that is within the snow, and the feeling of skiing the pressure balance instead of the surface, then you will continue to think that open areas are over rated.

I have trouble believing that any ski area in the east could ever offer that type experience giving the wet snow and rain we have to deal with here, let alone the higher skier density and environmental issues.

On the subject of why some older trails are so wide - 
Back when skiing was dominated by the Austrians there were two kinds of areas to ski at a resort.  Trails were long narrow paths from the top that were meandering adventures down the mountain.  Slopes were wide blue and green pitch fields where Austrian Instructors would drill you on traversing and step turning.  Come ski our wide slopes was the clarion call to skiers who wanted to emulate the Austrian above treeline style of skiing.  Many of those slopes still exist today.  This is not the same thing as the wide machine groomed boulevardes like Superstar, Outer Limits, and Double Dipper at Killington that were made for the masses, not the Austrians.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Grilling some Buffalo steak and cocktails at home.  However, cocktails tomorrow may be at the institution in Andover or the Common Man in Windham.  I have a craving for escargot.



What is your 'institution' in Andover?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> What is your 'institution' in Andover?



A legendary drinking and eating establishment.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> A legendary drinking and eating establishment.



name?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> name?



Not his, butt this has been quite the institution for a number of years.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2011)

That's the joint on 125 in North Andover yes?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> That's the joint on 125 in North Andover yes?



Oui. 

Queenspark Swizzle.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> What is your 'institution' in Andover?



Palmer's


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

mister moose said:


> Like waterskiing at dawn, sking down a 5 acre powder filled bowl has to be experienced to be appreciated.  If you have never felt the zero G entry off the cornice, the fluid immersion of skis planing as they accelerate, the limitless expanse beneath you, the speed tugging at every part of you that is within the snow, and the feeling of skiing the pressure balance instead of the surface, then you will continue to think that open areas are over rated.
> 
> I have trouble believing that any ski area in the east could ever offer that type experience giving the wet snow and rain we have to deal with here, let alone the higher skier density and environmental issues.
> 
> ...



What examples of wide Austrian type wide slopes are out there? Bottom of Spruce Peak is one, right? Any others?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 25, 2011)

mister moose said:


> Like waterskiing at dawn, sking down a 5 acre powder filled bowl has to be experienced to be appreciated.  If you have never felt the zero G entry off the cornice, the fluid immersion of skis planing as they accelerate, the limitless expanse beneath you, the speed tugging at every part of you that is within the snow, and the feeling of skiing the pressure balance instead of the surface, then you will continue to think that open areas are over rated.
> 
> I have trouble believing that any ski area in the east could ever offer that type experience giving the wet snow and rain we have to deal with here, let alone the higher skier density and environmental issues.
> 
> ...



I have skied bad days in the west as well as the east. I have had sierra cement in Tahoe. I have had sleet freezing to my goggles in Utah. I have skied on ice in Colorado.
I have also had great days in the East as well as the west. I have had 36 inches of soft powder at Cannon. I've had blue bird spring days in VT. It may be more hit or miss but law of averages have given me more great days in the East.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> I have skied bad days in the west as well as the east. I have had sierra cement in Tahoe. I have had sleet freezing to my goggles in Utah. I have skied on ice in Colorado.
> I have also had great days in the East as well as the west. I have had 36 inches of soft powder at Cannon. I've had blue bird spring days in VT. It may be more hit or miss but law of averages have given me more great days in the East.



I'm glad you've had great days in the East and it sucks that out west you've had bad luck, but I assume your post isn't meant to convey the idea that the East is better than the West. Because it's not even close, as I'm sure you know.


----------



## twinplanx (Sep 25, 2011)

"not even close"? I think you may have lost ANY respect you had on this board. Take you ball & go home. This is not ment to be "nice"!!!


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> "not even close"? I think you may have lost ANY respect you had on this board. Take you ball & go home. This is not ment to be "nice"!!!



I guess you "meAnt" that your post wasn't "meAnt" to be nice. And I also guess you were talking about "youR" balls, which you clearly seem to lack if you think that the East compares to the West. Grow some and head west whenever you can, enjoy the East the rest of the time.


----------



## tarponhead (Sep 25, 2011)




----------



## twinplanx (Sep 25, 2011)

*are you seriously correcting my spelling?*



skiersleft said:


> I guess you "meAnt" that your post wasn't "meAnt" to be nice. And I also guess you were talking about "youR" balls, which you clearly seem to lack if you think that the East compares to the West. Grow some and head west whenever you can, enjoy the East the rest of the time.



assbag, now you have managed to insult me 2 times. 

I did not say the East is better then the West. Unbunch your panties.

I have been out West twice, thank you very much. 
(The above comment is made in jest.)
Do the Alps compare to out West. How about Alaska?

The best place to be is any place w/ fresh snow & some decent vert.

ps you can admire the size of my balls as they reside on your chin.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> assbag, now you have managed to insult me 2 times.
> 
> I did not say the East is better then the West. Unbunch your panties.
> 
> ...



Twice? Really? So often? Now that's a lot of experience out west. Sorry I questioned such a connoisseur. As for your genitals (look the meAning of the word up - probably too advanced for you), I should have imagined you're the kind of person who is interested in touching them against a man's chin. But sorry, not interested.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 25, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> There you go again being mean, Tim's Wood. Be nice for once. Your definition of success clearly is shooting down people who are trying to have a conversation, but do it nicely, that's all I ask.


Someone is not being nice!


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Someone is not being nice!



But she started it!!!


----------



## twinplanx (Sep 25, 2011)

actually what I was implying was that you are beneath me and do not deserve futher attention. Have fun w/ the worlds lamest thread...


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> actually what I was implying was that you are beneath me and do not deserve futher attention. Have fun w/ the worlds lamest thread...



Great comeback!!!! Keep up the good work!


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 25, 2011)

Twenty pages! Amazing.


----------



## Nick (Sep 25, 2011)

Seriously :roll:

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Palmer's



Not a bad joint.  Have you tried Brasserie 28 (formerly Bin28) down the street?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 26, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Not a bad joint.  Have you tried Brasserie 28 (formerly Bin28) down the street?



No, my wife may have.  I am a creature of habit.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2011)

you should

way more talent in the kitchen and they use far better ingredients than Palmer's.  I've ate at Palmer's, it's not a bad joint.  Palmers = Honda.  Brasserie 28 = Acura.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 26, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> you should
> 
> way more talent in the kitchen and they use far better ingredients than Palmer's. I've ate at Palmer's, it's not a bad joint. Palmers = Honda. Brasserie 28 = Acura.


 
We eat in the bar for atmosphere. I have not eaten upstairs for years.  Wife holds her board meetings there, too.  Blue Moon on tap and a cheeseburger.  I don't need a menu.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> you should
> 
> way more talent in the kitchen and they use far better ingredients than Palmer's.  I've ate at Palmer's, it's not a bad joint.  Palmers = Honda.  Brasserie 28 = Acura.



Perhaps he goes for the atmosphere, friends, etc. 

There is something to be said for a comfortable environment.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Perhaps he goes for the atmosphere, friends, etc.
> 
> There is something to be said for a comfortable environment.


 
Bingo on the atmosphere, plus the games on TV.  We leave before the band starts though.  Can't stand it when they start.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 26, 2011)

I used to live in Colorado, some of that time in Blue River, next town up Hoosier pass from Breckenridge.

The skiing experience you get living there is not the same as the skiing experience you have visiting there.  While I have never, ever, seen any rain, sleet, or freezing mist in Colorado in ski season, I have seen long periods of no snow and the resultant lame conditions, windblown hardpack on exposed windy areas, and a mine field of exposed rock.  You get sun crust in the spring.  But if you say you went to Colorado and skied ice then you likely either were at some place with snowmaking like Keystone or had a magnifying glass with you.

On return trips to Colorado I too have been hosed.  I also managed to hit the driest winter in 50 years in Banff once.  On the return from a nothing special, no fresh snow trip to Colorado I flew back east to a 48 inch dump in 2 days and drove to (of course) Jay Peak and had better skiing than anything in Colorado THAT WEEK.  But over the course of an ENTIRE WINTER, even the worst winter I had in Colorado was far better than the best winter here.  Check the skier visits to Colorado and Utah VS New England.  There's a reason.  Yes there are good days in the east.  I make a point of skiing as many of them as I can.   Smellytele I am saying the reason you have had more good days in the east on the average is because you live here, and therefore hit the better days here.  A good day in the Rockies will take your breath away on a scale the east can never provide.  If you haven't experienced that yet I am truly sorry, but it doesn't change the magnificence Colorado has to offer.  (Jackson Hole isn't too shabby either, BTW)


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Perhaps he goes for the atmosphere, friends, etc.
> 
> There is something to be said for a comfortable environment.



I get that.

I tend to be very loyal to places as well.  

and Blue Moon sux :razz:


----------



## bobbutts (Sep 26, 2011)

mister moose said:


> Like waterskiing at dawn, sking down a 5 acre powder filled bowl has to be experienced to be appreciated.  If you have never felt the zero G entry off the cornice, the fluid immersion of skis planing as they accelerate, the limitless expanse beneath you, the speed tugging at every part of you that is within the snow, and the feeling of skiing the pressure balance instead of the surface, then you will continue to think that open areas are over rated.
> 
> I have trouble believing that any ski area in the east could ever offer that type experience giving the wet snow and rain we have to deal with here, let alone the higher skier density and environmental issues.
> 
> ...



Not sure why you feel the need to dismiss my preference by writing like you know what I've experienced and how it made me feel better than I do.
It's ok if you want to disagree, but please try not to make assumptions about me.


----------



## WJenness (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Looks like you caught a good game. Did you get to see Dougie play before he got shipped back to Juniors?



The game was fun... Going again on Thursday for the pre-season tilt with the Sens... Can't wait for opening night Next Thursday!!!

Unfortunately, I did not get to see Hamilton play at all... Hopefully he'll develop well in Juniors this year and come back strong for camp next year.

-w


----------



## Edd (Sep 26, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> and Blue Moon sux :razz:



Yes.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 26, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> Not sure why you feel the need to dismiss my preference by writing like you know what I've experienced and how it made me feel better than I do.
> It's ok if you want to disagree, but please try not to make assumptions about me.



I was stating my preference as well.

What you said was

"open areas are overrated ", which implies overrated by someone else, like me perhaps.  Your statement dismissed my preference.

Et tu bobbutts?


----------



## bobbutts (Sep 26, 2011)

mister moose said:


> I was stating my preference as well.
> 
> What you said was
> 
> ...



I think someone switched me out for decaf or something today
sorry.


----------



## MadPadraic (Sep 26, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> I'm glad you've had great days in the East and it sucks that out west you've had bad luck, but I assume your post isn't meant to convey the idea that the East is better than the West. Because it's not even close, as I'm sure you know.



Why bring up the brawl? My best 2 days ever were both out west and my third and fourth were in the east. But then, I've had more days out west.  I think that the West has a lot of advantages over the east: lift serviced riding into July (Crystal, maybe A-basin) and bowls to name two, but the East can really bring it with our woods and tight trails.

Also, the rockies and pacific northwest brag about their microbrews, but none measure up to good ole Harpoon let alone a good New England craft brew (with the possible exception of Hazed and Infused).



twinplanx said:


> I have been out West twice, thank you very much.
> (The above comment is made in jest.)
> Do the Alps compare to out West. How about Alaska?



I've only had one trip to the Alps, but from a snowboarding perspective they aren't in the same league as the American or Canadian West. I include Alaska in the west.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 27, 2011)

mister moose said:


> Smellytele I am saying the reason you have had more good days in the east on the average is because you live here, and therefore hit the better days here. BTW)



That is what i was saying - It may be more hit or miss but law of averages have given me more great days in the East. 

I have had fun in the west don't get me wrong and I will go again (and again).

I have had good days in the Alps as well and the views were beyond belief. I will not pass up a trip to either the West or the Alps if my wallet allows.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Sep 29, 2011)

The West is a million times better than the East.  You crazy if you think otherwise.


----------



## twinplanx (Sep 29, 2011)

DoublePlanker said:


> The West is a million times better than the East.  You crazy if you think otherwise.



1,000,000 x REALLY ??...

Why even post about it then in some lame thread on an inferior, Eastern forum?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I get that.
> 
> I tend to be very loyal to places as well.
> 
> and Blue Moon sux :razz:


 
Foie Gras sux!uke:


----------



## DoublePlanker (Sep 29, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> 1,000,000 x REALLY ??...



One... Hundred... BILLION  times better
Or a kajillion bajillion times better


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

DoublePlanker said:


> One... Hundred... BILLION  times better
> Or a kajillion bajillion times better



Are you a McIntire passholder?


----------



## DoublePlanker (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Are you a McIntire passholder?



I always wanted to live in a ski town when I was growing up.   Too bad I wound up in ManchVegas, probably the worst ski town.  At least its not far from the mega resorts - Pats Peak and Crotched Mountain.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

DoublePlanker said:


> I always wanted to live in a ski town when I was growing up.   Too bad I wound up in ManchVegas, probably the worst ski town.  At least its not far from the mega resorts - Pats Peak and Crotched Mountain.



Well, at least you have McIntire and the Uke close by.:flag:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Well, at least you have McIntire and the Uke close by.:flag:



You left out the bowl skiing at the local institution.  The mighty Nashoba!  20 minutes for, but still not worth it.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2011)

DoublePlanker said:


> I always wanted to live in a ski town when I was growing up.   Too bad I wound up in ManchVegas, probably the worst ski town.  At least its not far from the mega resorts - Pats Peak and Crotched Mountain.



Could be worse and you could live in Mississippi


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

Puck it said:


> You left out the bowl skiing at the local institution.  The mighty Nashoba!  20 minutes for, but still not worth it.



I am hearing that they will be seeding some bumps!


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> I am hearing that they will be seeding some bumps!


 

Never been there!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Never been there!



You would love it there. They have a special area for little people and programs for little folks as well!:razz:

*Mountain Munchkin Program *






http://ski-bluehills.com/childrens-center/multi-week-programs/mountain-munchkin


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> You would love it there. They have a special area for little people and programs for little folks as well!:razz:
> 
> *Mountain Munchkin Program *
> 
> ...


 

Hey, I am not a munckin!!!!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Hey, I am not a munckin!!!!



No, but you can bring your sherpa!


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> No, but you can bring your sherpa!



My sherpa walked out and won't be back!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 29, 2011)

Puck it said:


> My sherpa walked out and won't be back!



Sherpas can not walk out on a trip. It's just the way it is. Sherpas don't cry.


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## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Sherpas can not walk out on a trip. It's just the way it is. Sherpas don't cry.



My sherpa did.


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## Puck it (Sep 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> you should
> 
> way more talent in the kitchen and they use far better ingredients than Palmer's.  I've ate at Palmer's, it's not a bad joint.  Palmers = Honda.  Brasserie 28 = Acura.



Wife has not been. We went tonoght wth her sister.  We only had apps. The cheese and meat app was good. Smallish on the cheese though.  The girls had bruschettawith filet on top. 

Not Palmer 's bar though. They did have Blue Moon on tap.


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## Nick (Sep 30, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> 1,000,000 x REALLY ??...
> 
> Why even post about it then in some lame thread on an inferior, Eastern forum?



Cuz we all live here and love our local mtns


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## twinplanx (Sep 30, 2011)

Nick said:


> Cuz we all live here and love our local mtns



+1

I'm not suggesting the East is better then the West. Rather, implying that skiing is skiing and comparing one region to another is only natural. If its white & you can slide down a mountain on it, its good! When you narrow it down, there is something like 10 ski regions on Earth. To suggest that West is "a million times better" is extreme insult.  The East does have its Days & I will defend her to the bitter end!!!


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> +1
> 
> I'm not suggesting the East is better then the West. Rather, implying that skiing is skiing and comparing one region to another is only natural. If its white & you can slide down a mountain on it, its good! When you narrow it down, there is something like 10 ski regions on Earth. To suggest that West is "a million times better" is extreme insult.  The East does have its Days & I will defend her to the bitter end!!!



+1


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## skiersleft (Sep 30, 2011)

The West is only 20 times better than the East. Not 1 million. Not even close.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 30, 2011)

There is a saying an older who my wife works with and we go on ski trips with always says.

"The turns all feel the same no matte where you are"

I translate that to *"SHUT UP AND SKI!"*


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## skiersleft (Sep 30, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There is a saying an older who my wife works with and we go on ski trips with always says.
> 
> "The turns all feel the same no matte where you are"
> 
> I translate that to *"SHUT UP AND SKI!"*



Wrong. Turns at Whistler feel better than turns at Mountain Creek. That I know for sure.


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## Puck it (Sep 30, 2011)

I can't stand East mountain skiing!!!!:-D


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Wrong. Turns at Whistler feel better than turns at Mountain Creek. That I know for sure.



Not when the rain comes in off the coast


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## skiersleft (Sep 30, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> Not when the rain comes in off the coast



Yes. Even then. A rainy day at Whistler is better than a powder day at Mountain Creek.


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## Nick (Sep 30, 2011)

Puck it said:


> I can't stand East mountain skiing!!!!:-D



Drooooool


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Yes. Even then. A rainy day at Whistler is better than a powder day at Mountain Creek.



I'll give ya the MC .


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## Nick (Sep 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Yes. Even then. A rainy day at Whistler is better than a powder day at Mountain Creek.



Erm, I doubt _that_.


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## Hado226 (Sep 30, 2011)

Having been at Whistler on a foggy rainy day, just about anywhere on earth on a powder day is better.  Sloppy, no visibility...  Yuck.


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## witch hobble (Sep 30, 2011)

puck it said:


> i can't stand east mountain skiing!!!!:-d



schwing!


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## Black Phantom (Sep 30, 2011)

Puck it said:


> I can't stand East mountain skiing!!!!:-D



And you want me to go on a Tuesday or a Thursday? What's wrong with you, fuzzy man?:flag::grin::smash:


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## Puck it (Sep 30, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> And you want me to go on a Tuesday or a Thursday? What's wrong with you, fuzzy man?:flag::grin::smash:



Whaka whakA whaka


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## MadPadraic (Oct 1, 2011)

Hado226 said:


> Having been at Whistler on a foggy rainy day, just about anywhere on earth on a powder day is better.  Sloppy, no visibility...  Yuck.



Just head over to Blackcomb if that happens.


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## Geoff (Oct 1, 2011)

MadPadraic said:


> Just head over to Blackcomb if that happens.



...and ski the mid-mountain tree band.    The gladed trail I really like is Outer Limits off the Crystal chair.   Sadly, it dumps you on the infinite runout off the Blackcomb Glacier.   2 1/2 miles of flat connector trail to get back to a lift.    The short shots below the 7th Heaven quad are also good.   Nobody wants to deal with the short trail and long runout so they're ignored.   I ski Killington so it's what I'm used to.


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