# COVID concerns in the Northeast



## uphillklimber (Nov 29, 2020)

x


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## kingslug (Nov 29, 2020)

My fear is about a week from now  the Thanksgiving superspread will hit the hospitals and things will get shut down. 50 million people traveled..


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## Edd (Nov 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I have also heard other reports of skiers who plan to complain to management about this situation. Maybe management can step up their game. But they have also said that they will notify Augusta.


Did management say that on the SR forum?


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## tnt1234 (Nov 29, 2020)

kingslug said:


> My fear is about a week from now  the Thanksgiving superspread will hit the hospitals and things will get shut down. 50 million people traveled..


yeah, unfortunately it feels inevitable.  

And despite skiing being inherently safe - we're outdoors, we're moving - it's also inherently accident prone.  Local community hospitals aren't going to want ambulances showing up with hurt knees and shoulders from the ski mountains while they are dealing with Covid.

This is all pretty nuts.  Just trying to gear up for an unconventional winter....


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## tnt1234 (Nov 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Folks, I posted this on the Sunday River thread, and feel like, maybe we need to talk about this a bit????
> 
> 
> I just read a troubling report from a friend who skied Saturday. Apparently, many folks are not wearing their masks in the que and crowding up too much. This is not up to the skiers or Sunday River. If an inspector comes here and sees non compliance, they have the emergency power to shut it all down. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. If it gets shut down, that means no more snowmaking, no more grooming, no more lifts running, and as we saw last year, no more uphill skinning.
> ...


The mask thing....well, it does seem really difficult to see how you mask up at teh bottom of every run.  I'm thinking you just leave the cloth mask under your chin all day, and pull it up at the bottom.

But crowding each other - that's really easy to control and it's aggravating that people wouldn't give each other space right now.


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## 1dog (Nov 29, 2020)

Killington did a good job respectfully requesting distancing and masking at all queue's. Thanked each one, and even thanked those who were complying.

A good WSJ piece today on the testing.  Here is a bit of it:

U.S. government scientists now estimate that 40% of cases are asymptomatic and 80% of symptomatic cases are mild—in short, 88% of subjects don’t know they are infected or have no great incentive to find out if they are suffering from Covid or some more familiar bug.


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## urungus (Nov 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> if he is ready to shut it down for everybody, why doesn't he just stay away if he is truly worried about his health, and let the skiers all infect themselves and die off. I know, not the right logical thought.



Because the infected skiers don’t live in a bubble, they will spread the disease to whoever they come into contact with once they leave the ski area.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 29, 2020)

Killington has been doing a great job. They have multiple people watching for masks on each lift.


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## skinowworklater (Nov 29, 2020)

Lets hope "those people in Augusta" don't check out the Sunday River's web cams, or any others for that matter.


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## JimG. (Nov 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Ummm... no, management did not say that. I see the ambiguity you are asking about. These other skiers have said that if Sunday river does not get it under control, the skier will report them to Augusta.
> 
> Which just sort of begs the question. So, if he is ready to shut it down for everybody, why doesn't he just stay away if he is truly worried about his health, and let the skiers all infect themselves and die off. I know, not the right logical thought.


Yeah just as I figured it will play out...some asshole skier who couldn't stay home because he is afraid will now ruin things for everyone.

Inevitable human bullshit.


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## RISkier (Nov 29, 2020)

kingslug said:


> My fear is about a week from now  the Thanksgiving superspread will hit the hospitals and things will get shut down. 50 million people traveled..



Hope you're wrong. I hope I'm wrong too because I think case numbers are going to increase dramatically between now and Christmas. ICU beds are already in short supply in many locations. And it's not just coronavirus cases that need ICU beds,


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Folks, I posted this on the Sunday River thread, and feel like, maybe we need to talk about this a bit????
> 
> 
> I just read a troubling report from a friend who skied Saturday. Apparently, many folks are not wearing their masks in the que and crowding up too much. This is not up to the skiers or Sunday River. If an inspector comes here and sees non compliance, they have the emergency power to shut it all down. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. If it gets shut down, that means no more snowmaking, no more grooming, no more lifts running, and as we saw last year, no more uphill skinning.
> ...


 Wow.  That is a surprise.  FWIW our Boyne Resort, Brighton, has been on top of enforcing masks in the lines.  I have only seen two people get spoken to in four days there.


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## Zermatt (Nov 29, 2020)

Weather will close killington this week it appears.


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## njdiver85 (Nov 29, 2020)

It all comes down to enforcement.  At A-Basin, the enforcement was excellent - they were strict but not mean about it.  If you weren't wearing a mask in the lift line, you were flagged immediately.

At Mount Snow - different story.  Enforcement was spotty at best.  50% of kids were half-assed about the mask thing.  Either pulled down or noses not covered.  Out of all the crazy regulations, you'd think this would be the easiest to enforce.  

How about, one warning, and then on the second infraction, you are banned from the mountain for the day?  With the electronic ticket scanning, it should be an easy thing to flag someone's pass with a warning, and if they do it again on same day, kick them out and cancel their ticket for the day.  I bet in one weekend of this, word gets out, and you will have 100% compliance!!!


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## EPB (Nov 29, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Yeah just as I figured it will play out...some asshole skier who couldn't stay home because he is afraid will now ruin things for everyone.


Not all heroes wear capes... In all seriousness, though, I'm surprised Boyne and others aren't more on top of things. They should guard their ability to keep operating like it's precious (because it is).


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## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 29, 2020)

Its not that hard. Burton has a great prod, the Anon MFI face mask. This is a magnetic mask that attaches to your Anon google. No fogging and 100% face coverage. get the lightest one they make, anything heavier tends to freeze up and become uncomfortable. Or get a merino wool version. Its not that hard to mask up and not look it. And the magnetic lens attachment is the best thing ever. 
Just do it!


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## andrec10 (Nov 29, 2020)

Hunter lifties were watching everyone. Even one person who did not have the mask over her nose was asked politely to pull up the mask. I thought they did a great job.


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## JimG. (Nov 29, 2020)

andrec10 said:


> Hunter lifties were watching everyone. Even one person who did not have the mask over her nose was asked politely to pull up the mask. I thought they did a great job.


Very glad to hear this.


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## andrec10 (Nov 29, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Very glad to hear this.


Me too! I would like to ski the entire season.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 29, 2020)

billo said:


> Weather will close killington this week it appears.


Just Monday


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## zoomzoom (Nov 29, 2020)

"If an inspector comes here and sees non compliance...."

just wondering who the inspector is.  you mean the state ski-lift inspector, or some other entity?  mask/physical distancing compliance in vt is on the honor system, not sure about other new england states.


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## Zermatt (Nov 30, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Just Monday


Not what the snow report says.

Expect Monday due to wind, Tuesday due to loss of snow then icing and no ability to make snow at low elevations until the end of the week.


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## ss20 (Nov 30, 2020)

billo said:


> Not what the snow report says.
> 
> Expect Monday due to wind, Tuesday due to loss of snow then icing and no ability to make snow at low elevations until the end of the week.



They didn't say "expect" to close they said "possible" and that Tuesday is "in question".


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## kbroderick (Nov 30, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> "If an inspector comes here and sees non compliance...."
> 
> just wondering who the inspector is.  you mean the state ski-lift inspector, or some other entity?  mask/physical distancing compliance in vt is on the honor system, not sure about other new england states.


Health inspectors. If you want to read about the enforcement mechanisms as applied to businesses, read up on the Sunday River Brewing Co saga. I haven't heard of any enforcement against individuals on masking / social distancing, just third-hand reports of travel-restriction enforcement that I haven't been able to verify. I do expect that the state is well aware of how many people Sunday River and Sugarloaf usually draw and that there will be close attention paid as a result.

Overall, what I saw of liftline management was pretty good, including reminding people to put their masks up and asking singles if they were willing to ride two per quad (but not pressuring at all).


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## kingslug (Nov 30, 2020)

Galeforce winds and rain out there..should be doing wonders for the 3 inch base .


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## HowieT2 (Nov 30, 2020)

take this fwiw from me being something of an optimist, but the case numbers in the midwest and plains states are definitively coming down.  The numbers in the northeast in general aren't going up the way they were a few weeks ago.  And Vermont's numbers are starting to decline.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 30, 2020)

it did look like the northeast was beginning to flatten the newest curve, but i suspect thanksgiving will fuck that right in its butt.


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## Andrew B. (Nov 30, 2020)

Skied the River every day they were open until today. Had my wife and son get nicely reminded to pull masks up. I had warned them both previously, smarten up. 

Had a patroller thanking me for pulling mine up before getting in the lift maze at Spruce.  That’s my que now, always stop before the maze and pull it up. No more cruising in and directly on a chair like last year or hopefully next year. It’s (hopefully) only this years issue.

I did have a single come up and expect to ride Barker with me. I let him go alone.

I didn’t see too much lawlessness for what I hade sort of expected. Never saw an employee so much as pull their mask down once.

I saw one guy grumble “bullsh!t” after being reminded. Other than that the vibe seemed great.

The snow was awesome!


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it did look like the northeast was beginning to flatten the newest curve, but i suspect thanksgiving will fuck that right in its butt.


Unfortunately I think you are correct.  Vermont not going to loosen their regs until full vaccine distribution.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Unfortunately I think you are correct.  Vermont not going to loosen their regs until full vaccine distribution.



i just hope they don't tighten the regs and/or halt ski ops. starting Tuesday night the storm door is actually open. got multiple weather sources pointing towards a pattern shift and the potential for something sorta big late next weekend. this sets me up beautifully for a December 9 arrival in the valley.

also, an aside. I'll take social distancing thanksgiving for the rest of time. spending the day with only my girlfriend and our cat in our apartment, drinking other half IPAs, chain smoking bowls, while watching the last waltz and old grateful dead videos, and eating delicious locally catered food instead of cooking, beats absolutely everything about having to sit in traffic to make awkward small talk with trumpy uncles who are obsessed with watching 20 year old boys wrassle over an oblong ball


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Galeforce winds and rain out there..should be doing wonders for the 3 inch base .


Ski conditions this week,


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 30, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just hope they don't tighten the regs and/or halt ski ops. starting Tuesday night the storm door is actually open. got multiple weather sources pointing towards a pattern shift and the potential for something sorta big late next weekend. this sets me up beautifully for a December 9 arrival in the valley.
> 
> also, an aside. I'll take social distancing thanksgiving for the rest of time. spending the day with only my girlfriend and our cat in our apartment, drinking other half IPAs, chain smoking bowls, while watching the last waltz and old grateful dead videos, and eating delicious locally catered food instead of cooking, beats absolutely everything about having to sit in traffic to make awkward small talk with trumpy uncles who are obsessed with watching 20 year old boys wrassle over an oblong ball


the only thing missing from that post is a trip to Whole Foods and Trader Joes  

LOL

J/K

We too enjoyed a nice low key Turkey Day.  We did Cook and had drinks.  I even had some Other Half


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## zyk (Nov 30, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just hope they don't tighten the regs and/or halt ski ops. starting Tuesday night the storm door is actually open. got multiple weather sources pointing towards a pattern shift and the potential for something sorta big late next weekend. this sets me up beautifully for a December 9 arrival in the valley.
> 
> also, an aside. I'll take social distancing thanksgiving for the rest of time. spending the day with only my girlfriend and our cat in our apartment, drinking other half IPAs, chain smoking bowls, while watching the last waltz and old grateful dead videos, and eating delicious locally catered food instead of cooking, beats absolutely everything about having to sit in traffic to make awkward small talk with trumpy uncles who are obsessed with watching 20 year old boys wrassle over an oblong ball


To your aside I agree.  Neon on tap, Cooked for wife, son and all the dogs.  Will probably make this a new tradition.


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## 2Planker (Nov 30, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> "If an inspector comes here and sees non compliance...."
> 
> just wondering who the inspector is.  you mean the state ski-lift inspector, or some other entity?  mask/physical distancing compliance in vt is on the honor system, not sure about other new england states.


It's Dept. of Public Health inspecting ski resorts in Maine, NH, MA & VT.
YES they have full authority to shut it down completely, even on the spot if they see something they don't like......


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## tumbler (Nov 30, 2020)

2Planker said:


> It's Dept. of Public Health inspecting ski resorts in Maine, NH, MA & VT.
> YES they have full authority to shut it down completely, even on the spot if they see something they don't like......


I think this will be the MO in VT to potentially shut down the areas.  When they show up and the parking lot is filled with out of state plates, that will probably be enough for them to shut it down.  I don't think Scott cares whether the ski areas operate or not.  

Can a state totally ban people from coming in from another state(s)?


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## MidnightJester (Nov 30, 2020)

I would say having extra snow and ice that covers some License plates more then others might be a proactive step some might make to avoid extra eyes staring while parked in hotel and store parking lots.


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## Dickc (Nov 30, 2020)

Someone could make a killing selling cardboard covers with a fake plate matching the state you are parked in.....  Just saying.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Can a state totally ban people from coming in from another state(s)?



Not really, unless the governors try to give themselves special powers through the state of emergency.  New York threatened to sue Rhode Island when they were trying to do that back in the spring.   Regulation of interstate commerce is up to the federal government


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## kbroderick (Nov 30, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Not really, unless the governors try to give themselves special powers through the state of emergency.  New York threatened to sue Rhode Island when they were trying to do that back in the spring


Even with emergency powers, closing interstate travel would have to pass a pretty damn high bar for constitutional muster.

Now, regulating what people do in your state *after* coming in from another state (e.g. requiring a 14-day quarantine without contact with any other humans) is much more likely to pass constitutional muster, particularly when it applies as Vermont's guidelines do to both visitors and returning residents.


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## abc (Nov 30, 2020)

Dickc said:


> Someone could make a killing selling cardboard covers with a fake plate matching the state you are parked in.....  Just saying.


Except a good many of the second home owners have out-of-state plate. And they may have been staying in VT the whole time. Quarantine and what not...


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## icecoast1 (Nov 30, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Even with emergency powers, closing interstate travel would have to pass a pretty damn high bar for constitutional muster.


Yup, that would almost certainly end up getting blocked by the supreme court, if it even made it that far


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## sull1102 (Nov 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think this will be the MO in VT to potentially shut down the areas.  When they show up and the parking lot is filled with out of state plates, that will probably be enough for them to shut it down.  I don't think Scott cares whether the ski areas operate or not.
> 
> Can a state totally ban people from coming in from another state(s)?


That's concerning, but true it seems. A state cannot totally ban people from coming in from other states per laws going back to the beginning of the good 'ol US of A. ON the note about Baker, I do find it interesting that for now we aren't seeing massive business losses and bankruptcies. Many of these resorts were FAR from financially stable in February of 2020 so I can only imagine how jacked up the books are now that they lost all summer business and likely to lose their shirts this year as well. I think the industry will look quite different next season, or at least we'll have plenty of NELSAP rumors to talk about next summer.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 30, 2020)

tumbler said:


> When they show up and the parking lot is filled with out of state plates, that will probably be enough for them to shut it down.





tumbler said:


> I think this will be the MO in VT to potentially shut down the areas.  When they show up and the parking lot is filled with out of state plates, that will probably be enough for them to shut it down.  I don't think Scott cares whether the ski areas operate or not.
> 
> Can a state totally ban people from coming in from another state(s)?


How can a health inspector see something as broad as an out of state plate and use it as a reason to shut a ski area down? After all it isn’t the ski area’s fault for having out of state visitors, and frankly they need them to stay alive this winter. On every VT ski areas website they mention the travel guidelines. At Killington more than half of the plates were out of state and I assume it is similar throughout Vermont. Now mask compliance is another story. If people are not wearing masks and the policy is not being enforced, then if it is a repeat violation then maybe that could make sense.


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## JimG. (Nov 30, 2020)

andrec10 said:


> Me too! I would like to ski the entire season.


At this point I'll be happy when one of the mountains I have a pass for opens.


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## JimG. (Nov 30, 2020)

zyk said:


> To your aside I agree.  Neon on tap, Cooked for wife, son and all the dogs.  Will probably make this a new tradition.


Same here, my favorite holiday of all spent at home with wife and 3 sons. It's been our tradition for the last 10 years, I just got tired of traveling instead of enjoying.


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## drjeff (Nov 30, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> How can a health inspector see something as broad as an out of state plate and use it as a reason to shut a ski area down? After all it isn’t the ski area’s fault for having out of state visitors, and frankly they need them to stay alive this winter. On every VT ski areas website they mention the travel guidelines. At Killington more than half of the plates were out of state and I assume it is similar throughout Vermont. Now mask compliance is another story. If people are not wearing masks and the policy is not being enforced, then if it is a repeat violation then maybe that could make sense.


If people aren't wearing masks, and the resort is taking numerous steps to see that people are following the guidelines, then that could be an entirely different issue, and one where within reason, the public health department may let it slide rather than take a harsh knee jerk response


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> the only thing missing from that post is a trip to Whole Foods and Trader Joes



Either via bicycle or electric car, for some organic produce & hummus.


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## kingslug (Dec 1, 2020)

After seeing Hunters webcam today..going to take a good bit of blowing to get back in shape. Next week looks good.


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## andrec10 (Dec 1, 2020)

kingslug said:


> After seeing Hunters webcam today..going to take a good bit of blowing to get back in shape. Next week looks good.


Almost starting over.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 5, 2020)

Very good operation at Mount Snow yesterday. Anyone not wearing a mask or wearing one improperly was flagged very quickly.  

Regarding the VT travel ban, I will note that the real problem that I see are the bars and restaurants in VT - their parking lots have been filled at night - with locals!


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## machski (Dec 5, 2020)

Yes,  I thought SR did a good job with spacing lift lines and mask monitoring.  Part of that may be due to crowds being light from the liquid precip towards the bases, snow up top.  Snow level did seem to be dropping when we decided to quit around noon.  Too damp and googles were fogging up thanks to the damness and masks on lift.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 7, 2020)

SO everyone who has been skiing, what is your mask method?  Cloth mask under the chin while skiing, up while riding the lift?  Balaclava all day?


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## Slidebrook87 (Dec 7, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> SO everyone who has been skiing, what is your mask method?  Cloth mask under the chin while skiing, up while riding the lift?  Balaclava all day?


Pretty much all day for me. Above nose in lines and on lifts, below nose while skiing.


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## skef (Dec 7, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> SO everyone who has been skiing, what is your mask method?  Cloth mask under the chin while skiing, up while riding the lift?  Balaclava all day?


I bought a few balaclava-style masks from airbandmask.com; it's not clear if they're still selling them. Wear one all day. It does get damp... Better than a balaclava because: (1) ear loops and (2) rigid nose clip.

Yesterday at WaWa at one point I was in line stuck between two unmasked parties. Not cool.


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## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

skef said:


> Yesterday at WaWa at one point I was in line stuck between two unmasked parties. Not cool.


But aren't you a good 6' away from each? 

Alternatively, you could let the unmasked party behind you go ahead of you, and leave extra distance behind them?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 7, 2020)

my girlfriend just made the smart decision that we are not going to drive to Nashville to see her mom for Christmas after i am in Vermont for 10 days

i knew she would arrive at this decision, so i didn't really sweat it or try to influence it. avoided a minefield by letting this run its natural course.

my vermont trip is pretty low risk. i am going alone and cooking for myself. but i'd feel really bad about getting her mom sick. and then the Nashville trip itself was the kind of trip you arent supposed to take. halfway across the country to visit multiple households of old relatives.

this lets me ski again after xmas which is also cool. and i don't have to drive to and from nashville.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 7, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my girlfriend just made the smart decision that we are not going to drive to Nashville to see her mom for Christmas after i am in Vermont for 10 days
> 
> i knew she would arrive at this decision, so i didn't really sweat it or try to influence it. avoided a minefield by letting this run its natural course.
> 
> ...


Seems like the right decision.

We of course bailed on Thanksgiving.  We usually host, and didn't.  Also scraped X-mas and Chanukah. 

It sucks, but hey, don't want to get anyone sick, or get sick really, so....and we do want to ski....so feels right to limit some risks if we are gonna take some others....


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## 1dog (Dec 7, 2020)

Its now 10-11 days after T day. Based on 72. hours after exposure you can test positive ( Drs. say wait 72 hours after potential exposure to be most accurate test results)  VT had 79 deaths - 15% of NH deaths - Mad River Valley has had no testing positive.





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						ArcGIS Dashboards
					

ArcGIS Dashboards




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I believe this is as of this morning 10:30.


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## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

How is that double mask mandate in MA working.  First one 5/6.  Second one 11/5.  HMMM.  Seems to be surging despite the mandate.   I feel a lock down coming.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Seems to be surging despite the mandate.


Not going to argue regarding mask usage.  However, it is completely misleading to use these graphs to try and make your point.  You are showing positive tests, yet level of testing was virtually non-existent early on.  The actual number of cases in April/May are quite possibly 8-10 times the amount in the graph based on various estimates.  Yes . . . hospitalizations are up now, so there is a bit of a surge, but it is not as dramatic as these "graphs" portray.  And the current hospitalizations are generally less severe than in April/May.  All this would point to mask usage being a benefit, since it is likely tamping down the current situation relative to how things REALLY were early on.


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## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Not going to argue regarding mask usage.  However, it is completely misleading to use these graphs to try and make your point.  You are showing positive tests, yet level of testing was virtually non-existent early on.  The actual number of cases in April/May are quite possibly 8-10 times the amount in the graph based on various estimates.  Yes . . . hospitalizations are up now, so there is a bit of a surge, but it is not as dramatic as these "graphs" portray.  And the current hospitalizations are generally less severe than in April/May.  All this would point to mask usage being a benefit, since it is likely tamping down the current situation relative to how things REALLY were early on.



Your hypothesis of the data is valid but it is a way to read.  It could also be read as the mandate is not affecting the virus by improper mask wearing and/or type. Hospitalizations are way down from the original spike.  Virus could less virulent as so papers have published.


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## JimG. (Dec 7, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> SO everyone who has been skiing, what is your mask method?  Cloth mask under the chin while skiing, up while riding the lift?  Balaclava all day?


I was at Gore yesterday and that was my method. Cloth mask while on line and lift, under chin while skiing. Really a MINOR hassle. I started out with a gaiter and mask and that was good until I warmed up and got too hot. So I lost the gaiter and used my hood zipped up with the mask until I was skiing.


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## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Your hypothesis of the data is valid but it is a way to read.  It could also be read as the mandate is not affecting the virus by improper mask wearing and/or type.


It could also be related to where transmissions are occurring. If they're occurring indoors in private locations where people aren't wearing masks among people "they know" or where they simply aren't required to wear them, then that's a factor as well and does nothing to prove mask effectiveness one way or the other.

Mask mandates are one thing...compliance, proper mask usage, and whether people are letting their guard down in certain scenarios are entirely different though and potential major factors on the virus case rates.


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## kbroderick (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It could also be related to where transmissions are occurring. If they're occurring indoors in private locations where people aren't wearing masks among people "they know" or where they simply aren't required to wear them, then that's a factor as well and does nothing to prove mask effectiveness one way or the other.
> 
> Mask mandates are one thing...compliance, proper mask usage, and whether people are letting their guard down in certain scenarios are entirely different though and potential major factors on the virus case rates.


...plus the mask mandates thus far have all come when the solid waste was already headed towards the fan. With the significant window for pre-symptomatic transmission and the relatively high infection rate of Covid-19, it's very hard to tell at that point if regulations are having an immediate impact or not, as they may be reasonably effective in reducing further spread but the stats will keep going up for some amount of time due to spread prior to those regulations.


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## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It could also be related to where transmissions are occurring. If they're occurring indoors in private locations where people aren't wearing masks among people "they know" or where they simply aren't required to wear them, then that's a factor as well and does nothing to prove mask effectiveness one way or the other.
> 
> Mask mandates are one thing...compliance, proper mask usage, and whether people are letting their guard down in certain scenarios are entirely different though and potential major factors on the virus case rates.


MA mandate is everywhere except in your own home or property.  FYI.


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## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> ...plus the mask mandates thus far have all come when the solid waste was already headed towards the fan. With the significant window for pre-symptomatic transmission and the relatively high infection rate of Covid-19, it's very hard to tell at that point if regulations are having an immediate impact or not, as they may be reasonably effective in reducing further spread but the stats will keep going up for some amount of time due to spread prior to those regulations.


MA first mandate was on the down slope so that theory does not hold for that scenario.


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## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

As conditions are still pretty marginal, I'm not yet skiing. Instead, I'm sitting in front of a keyboard making random comments on how Covid will affect skiing...



kbroderick said:


> it's very hard to tell at that point if regulations are having an immediate impact or not, as they may be reasonably effective in reducing further spread but the stats will keep going up for some amount of time due to spread prior to those regulations


This reminds me about driving on icy/snowy roads. 

Most on this board drive on wintery roads often enough to have learned you need to ANTICIPATE the condition and how it'll affect your car. Slow down BEFORE you need to brake, or keep the momentum going without steering etc. 

But so far, most of the response to Covid resembles a typical flatlander driving up to the mountains in winter. They drive as they normally do back home, They come into the corner too fact, then slam on the brake. Only to see their car skidded sideways into the snowbank! 

While some slowly learns. Others were more like "hell, the brakes don't work on ice anyway. Let's just not bother. We'll hope all the airbags will save us"!


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> MA mandate is everywhere except in your own home or property.  FYI.



Yes, I know. That's exactly what I meant by saying people could be catching it in "private locations" where they're not using masks.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes, I know. That's exactly what I meant by saying people could be catching it in "private locations" where they're not using masks.


So Baker will mandate masks in homes to reduce the spread.


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> So Baker will mandate masks in homes to reduce the spread.


If people are spending hours in their grannies house without mask, after they've spend a couple hours in a bar every day of the week, what can we say? 

You can't mandate "no stupidity".


----------



## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

Look at it this way. In NYC people walk around with masks. Yet people sitting right next to the sidewalk in outdoor dining spots , do not. Whats the point.
Indoor dining: wear a mask when you walk in , then take it off when you sit down. ???


----------



## Edd (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Look at it this way. In NYC people walk around with masks. Yet people sitting right next to the sidewalk in outdoor dining spots , do not. Whats the point.
> Indoor dining: wear a mask when you walk in , then take it off when you sit down. ???


That’s where distance comes in.


----------



## kbroderick (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> If people are spending hours in their grannies house without mask, after they've spend a couple hours in a bar every day of the week, what can we say?
> 
> You can't mandate "no stupidity".


We try, and try again, but they keep inventing better idiots. I worry more about spending time in the house with cousin Kathy who works at a nursing home; it's one thing for the stupidity to prune your own family tree, it's another when it starts spreading.

I'd bet that a significant portion of the onerous Covid-related restrictions would be unnecessary if "don't be stupid or selfish" were an enforceable regulation. Hell, a significant portion of *all* regulations, for that matter.


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Look at it this way. In NYC people walk around with masks. Yet people sitting right next to the sidewalk in outdoor dining spots , do not. Whats the point.
> Indoor dining: wear a mask when you walk in , then take it off when you sit down. ???


The idea is, you shouldn't be eating indoors with people outside your bubble.  I know plenty of people don't treat it that way, but that is what we should be doing.

So you are wearing the mask to separate yourself from other diners and staff.  Then you sit with your bubble and the masks can come off.

Again, that's not what is going on, but that's the guidance I think.

We've sat at picnic tables outdoors two or three times at resturants with others that our family members.  Felt OK, but not comfortable enough for us to do it more frequently.  And we have zero plans to eat indoors any time soon.  Seems to risky for our comfort level with other friends, and a little pointless if it's just us.  Why not just do take out at that point?

Everyone's different, but that's where we are at right now.  Would be a shame to fuck it all up now so close to a vaccine.  And skiing is going to be our one higher risk activity. We'll offset that risk by being conservative elsewhere.

2020 sucks.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

The dining spots on the sidewalks are right next to the sidewalks..Lot of people standing around and walking past..not much distance..and if this virus is hanging around in that airspace ..then you are breathing it.


----------



## kbroderick (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> The dining spots on the sidewalks are right next to the sidewalks..Lot of people standing around and walking past..not much distance..and if this virus is hanging around in that airspace ..then you are breathing it.


Maybe I'm the only one, but I take a deep breath before walking by the outdoor dining next to the sidewalk on our normal dog-walking route so I can exhale until I'm at least a bit (hopefully more than six feet) past it.


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Maybe I'm the only one, but I take a deep breath before walking by the outdoor dining next to the sidewalk on our normal dog-walking route so I can exhale until I'm at least a bit (hopefully more than six feet) past it.


Droplets don't float upward. You're safe walking by people sitting down (unless you're very short)


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> The dining spots on the sidewalks are right next to the sidewalks..Lot of people standing around and walking past..not much distance..and if this virus is hanging around in that airspace ..then you are breathing it.


I think it varies. 

Some restaurants I saw put some decorations around the outdoor dining tent, effectively creating a buffer space separating diner from the passersby.

Other restaurants I saw don't put the table at the edge of the tent. So again, their diners aren't really sitting right next to the sidewalk. 

But yes, I also saw what you described. kind of pointless to be sitting at the sidewalk when everyone in the world walk right by.


----------



## kbroderick (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> Droplets don't float upward. You're safe walking by people sitting down (unless you're very short)


Hopefully true in general, but it doesn't help the particular case I'm thinking of...the restaurant has a deck next to the sidewalk but several feet up, so the diners are actually above head level on the sidewalk.


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> The dining spots on the sidewalks are right next to the sidewalks..Lot of people standing around and walking past..not much distance..and if this virus is hanging around in that airspace ..then you are breathing it.


The natural airflow outside does a lot to prevent transmission.  Very few if any confirmed cases of outdoor transmission.  One reason why skiing should be pretty darn safe.

I agree with the places that have the tables basically in the sidewalk...does seem crazy.

But really, from what I understand, a vast majority of cases come from indoor contact, maskless, greater than 15 minutes.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Hopefully true in general, but it doesn't help the particular case I'm thinking of...the restaurant has a deck next to the sidewalk but several feet up, so the diners are actually above head level on the sidewalk.


Also wind and heat can effect where to droplets go. We aren’t talking rain drops, we’re talking mist you can’t even see.


----------



## da-bum (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Look at it this way. In NYC people walk around with masks. Yet people sitting right next to the sidewalk in outdoor dining spots , do not. Whats the point.
> Indoor dining: wear a mask when you walk in , then take it off when you sit down. ???


most resteraunts are just barely complying with the laws just so they can open up.  If they can get away with something, they will.  Look at all the outdoor dining setups where they covered up all four sides of their tent, effectively making it an indoor dining space, while still keeping the same table spacing.  Of the all the ones I passed by, on a few have actually do something to enhance diners' safety, like putting plexiglass panels between tables.  A popular restaurant in Long Island I went a few times went from having 25% of tables reserved, to 50%, both when allowed, now to what looks like 70% of the tables, with many within arm-reach to each other (probably going by their interpretation of 6ft between the edge of the tables, and having 50% of max occupancy, with the assumption not every table will be fully occupied).  Plus they still overbook like crazy where we had to wait 45min in the extremely overpacked waiting area.  I didn't feel completely uncomfortable, but felt worse for the host/hostess that has to be in that environment on a daily basis.


----------



## flakeydog (Dec 8, 2020)

I have not been to an indoor restaurant to eat since March and here is why....  when I thought about it I realized there is a great visual that recreates how we circulate , and share, the air.  Some of us are old enough to remember when you could smoke in bars and most restaurants.  That haze of smoke that almost prevents you from seeing across the room represents air that has passed through someone else's lungs at some point.  Granted some of that smoke is just from smoldering cigarettes but not much.  That is all shared air.  Even if one table or group in a room with 25+ people in it are smoking, you can tell- you can smell it and/or see it.  

If you take this scenario outside, the effect is significantly diminished.  The additional airflow and volume of space allows the smoke to dissipate exponentially faster.  And speaking of outside, you know when it's cold and you can see your breath?  It's those pesky water droplets that COVID likes to hitch a ride on in visual form.  Fun stuff!


----------



## kbroderick (Dec 8, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> I have not been to an indoor restaurant to eat since March and here is why....  when I thought about it I realized there is a great visual that recreates how we circulate , and share, the air.  Some of us are old enough to remember when you could smoke in bars and most restaurants.  That haze of smoke that almost prevents you from seeing across the room represents air that has passed through someone else's lungs at some point.  Granted some of that smoke is just from smoldering cigarettes but not much.  That is all shared air.  Even if one table or group in a room with 25+ people in it are smoking, you can tell- you can smell it and/or see it.
> 
> If you take this scenario outside, the effect is significantly diminished.  The additional airflow and volume of space allows the smoke to dissipate exponentially faster.  And speaking of outside, you know when it's cold and you can see your breath?  It's those pesky water droplets that COVID likes to hitch a ride on in visual form.  Fun stuff!


If you want to revisit those days, feel free to visit Wyoming. I blinked a few times before answering when asked "Smoking or non?" going in to a restaurant there a couple years ago.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 9, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> The natural airflow outside does a lot to prevent transmission.  *Very few if any confirmed cases of outdoor transmission. *One reason why skiing should be pretty darn safe.



I dont "guarantee" much when it comes to science as that's not how science works, but I pretty much guarantee you can catch COVID19 outside.    While moving downhill skiing?  No.  But certainly outdoor dining next to or being close to an infected person(s) for a while on a non-windy day.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 9, 2020)

I dont "guarantee" much when it comes to science as that's not how science works, but I pretty much guarantee you can catch COVID19 outside.    While moving downhill skiing?  No.  But certainly outdoor dining next to or being close to an infected person(s) for a while on a non-windy day.
Can you post a paper or study proving your hypothesis?  I have not seen anything on outside transmission to that effect.


----------



## abc (Dec 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont "guarantee" much when it comes to science as that's not how science works, but I pretty much guarantee you can catch COVID19 outside.    While moving downhill skiing?  No.  But certainly outdoor dining next to or being close to an infected person(s) for a while on a non-windy day.





Puck it said:


> Can you post a paper or study proving your hypothesis? I have not seen anything on outside transmission to that effect.


You may try googling?

 A while back, I came across a study in lancet (the mother of all "not-yet-reviewed" papers), in which the paper detailed a case of a couple of people having a conversation outdoors in close proximity for 1/2 hr and got infected. They did an exhausted search of other source of infection and found none. So concluded that 1/2 hr long conversation OUTDOORS has to be the transmission route. 

The very fact that even in countries that has relatively few cases and very rigorous contact tracing, they weren't able to nail every single case of transmission points to the reality that we don't have the full knowledge of all the possible transmission channels! In fact, the percentage of untraceable transmission is a sign we have missed quite some transmission venues that aren't obvious or "not proven"! 

That's why we're still wiping down groceries and washing our hands so much. While it's "proven" indoor air transmission is a much bigger issue, we couldn't rule out surface transmission completely. We're still too busy controlling the "major" transmission venue, we don't really have much of a handle of the "minor" transmission venues. 

So ignore those less obvious transmission venue at your own peril. 

Having said all that, I'm a firm believer that outdoor transmission is low risk. There's not much of case increase following all the protest back in the summer. So while it's quite possible to transmit the virus even in outdoor setting, it's also pretty obvious the risk is low.


----------



## flakeydog (Dec 9, 2020)

Puck it said:


> I dont "guarantee" much when it comes to science as that's not how science works, but I pretty much guarantee you can catch COVID19 outside.    While moving downhill skiing?  No.  But certainly outdoor dining next to or being close to an infected person(s) for a while on a non-windy day.
> Can you post a paper or study proving your hypothesis?  I have not seen anything on outside transmission to that effect.


Cant say I read every one but deep-state google could get you started. 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...d=0ahUKEwjnpqmml8HtAhXDSt8KHd9vBc04ChDh1QMIDA

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...NS41mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab

https://www.utsa.edu/today/2020/09/story/covid-spread-outdoor-conditions.html

Seems like:
-Outdoor is better than indoor
-Far away is better than close
-Short time is better than long time
-Mask better than no mask
-Aerosol transmission is a real bitch no matter where you are
-You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink

Key terms: Proximity, Duration, Aerosols, Common Sense


----------



## kingslug (Dec 9, 2020)

If the city is good with it..so be it. They also appear to be good with homeless tent cities popping up on sidewalks down the block from me. Its a different world here these days.


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## Puck it (Dec 9, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Cant say I read every one but deep-state google could get you started.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...d=0ahUKEwjnpqmml8HtAhXDSt8KHd9vBc04ChDh1QMIDA
> 
> ...


I was asking for a paper stating risk is high.


----------



## abc (Dec 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont "guarantee" much when it comes to science as that's not how science works, but I pretty much guarantee you can catch COVID19 outside.    While moving downhill skiing?  No.  But certainly outdoor dining next to or being close to an infected person(s) for a while on a non-windy day.





Puck it said:


> Can you post a paper or study proving your hypothesis?  I have not seen *anything on outside transmission *to that effect.





Puck it said:


> was asking for a paper *stating risk is high*.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2020)

kingslug said:


> My fear is about a week from now  the Thanksgiving superspread will hit the hospitals and things will get shut down. 50 million people traveled..


It's already started in downtown Boston.
Our Covid Testing line (for Symptomatic Patients only) is now 5+ Blocks long. Normal is 2 blocks since Julyish


----------



## dblskifanatic (Dec 9, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> Seems like the right decision.
> 
> We of course bailed on Thanksgiving.  We usually host, and didn't.  Also scraped X-mas and Chanukah.
> 
> It sucks, but hey, don't want to get anyone sick, or get sick really, so....and we do want to ski....so feels right to limit some risks if we are gonna take some others....



We move over thanksgiving weekend and drove from Colorado to MA 9 states four over nights and ate along the way!  Just did not deal with other people unless it was a convenience store or restaurant.


----------



## mister moose (Dec 9, 2020)

abc said:


> Droplets don't float upward. You're safe walking by people sitting down (unless you're very short)


Disagree.

Most of the guidelines being quoted are just that, guidelines.  The fact is that droplets come in lots of sizes, and the really small ones (ie aerosols) are light enough to stay suspended for days.  Not hours, days.  Luckily that percentage is low, but the longer the exposure, the smaller the airspace, and the more people, the higher the viral load.  So there's nothing magic about 6 feet, there is nothing magic about a cloth mask, and there is nothing magic about 25% capacity.  Outdoors has the added plus of UV degrading the virus spores .  It's all about reducing the intake of virus to such a low level  you can fight it off, or if you have it and are a-symptomatic, the guidelines keep you _mostly_ adequately unable to pass the virus, but the guidelines are not an absolute.


----------



## Los (Dec 9, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Very good operation at Mount Snow yesterday. Anyone not wearing a mask or wearing one improperly was flagged very quickly.
> 
> Regarding the VT travel ban, I will note that the real problem that I see are the bars and restaurants in VT - their parking lots have been filled at night - with locals!


Oh. My. God. Those selfish, rotten, ignorant, anti-science bastards! They are literally murdering us all!!


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## Los (Dec 9, 2020)

Lol just caught up with this thread. Hilariously unhinged, as are most things covid-related. Thanks for the entertainment all!


----------



## Los (Dec 9, 2020)

Just one last note - hats off to Bretton Woods - they’re following all the ridiculous protocols of course; but what I did not see once when we skied there on Sunday was anyone (employee or skier) making any remark to anyone about wearing a mask or how well they were wearing it. There were zero mask admonishments as far as I could tell. As should be the case.


----------



## abc (Dec 9, 2020)

mister moose said:


> abc said:
> 
> 
> > Droplets don't float upward. You're safe walking by people sitting down (unless you're very short)
> ...





mister moose said:


> Outdoors has the added plus of UV degrading the virus spore


What was the context? What's there to disagree???


----------



## abc (Dec 9, 2020)

Los said:


> There were zero mask admonishments


And zero mask wearing too?


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## dmort (Dec 9, 2020)

Belleayre opened today - watched the webcam all day - saw almost no one! I'm headed there this weekend and I'll post back. I'm also aiming for Crotched Mtn in NH and Whiteface before 2020 is done - hopefully people follow the rules and mountains stay open.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 9, 2020)

Los said:


> Just one last note - hats off to Bretton Woods - they’re following all the ridiculous protocols of course; but what I did not see once when we skied there on Sunday was anyone (employee or skier) making any remark to anyone about wearing a mask or how well they were wearing it. There were zero mask admonishments as far as I could tell. As should be the case.


People like you are why we can't have nice things and why this ski season has almost 0 chance of going the distance.


----------



## Los (Dec 9, 2020)

abc said:


> And zero mask wearing too?


I would say pretty much everyone was wearing a mask, including me and my kids. But there were lots of masks that were sort of on but not completely. And nobody freaked out about it or said anything about it, thank God. Maybe it was just good fortune on that particular afternoon, but there were no Ken's and Karen's scolding others about proper mask wearing (which is what I was expecting to encounter).


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2020)

Los said:


> Just one last note - hats off to Bretton Woods - they’re following all the ridiculous protocols of course; but what I did not see once when we skied there on Sunday was anyone (employee or skier) making any remark to anyone about wearing a mask or how well they were wearing it. There were zero mask admonishments as far as I could tell. As should be the case.



I think that New Hampshire ski resorts will benefit this season from not only having a Governor with direct family ties to the ski industry, but also having views about how his state should be run with respect to managing the Covid related health of its citizens, that is far less totalitarian than the Governors of most of the rest of the Northeast States that make up the ski industry


----------



## mister moose (Dec 9, 2020)

abc said:


> Droplets don't float upward. You're safe walking by people sitting down (unless you're very short)






abc said:


> What was the context? What's there to disagree???



Very small droplets achieve suspension, and will move in air currents and eddies, and will move upward.  Large droplets fall.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I think that New Hampshire ski resorts will benefit this season from not only having a Governor with direct family ties to the ski industry, but also having views about how his state should be run with respect to managing the Covid related health of its citizens, that is far less totalitarian than the Governors of most of the rest of the Northeast States that make up the ski industry


NH - the  *"Live Free Or Die" *State.


----------



## machski (Dec 10, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> My biggest concern about the whole mask thing does not have to do with whether or how well they work. It has to do with inspectors seeing non compliance and shutting down the resort.
> 
> I want Sunday River to stay open. I think we all know about the Sunday River Brew Pub in their very public feud with Governor Janet Mills. You can't fight city hall and that is just what they did and painted a big ole bulls eye on their back. There are less than half a dozen inspectors for the entire state, and the Pub has been visited multiple times. (No conspiracy theory there, just the facts).
> 
> ...


While the Brew Pub is a large restaurant business in the area, I tend to think the State understands it is not tied to the resort.  I also think the State understands the difference in revenue brought in between the Pub and the resort, the amount of jobs tied to each, etc.  I don't see the resort taking added scrutiny from how the Pub owners have handled themselves.  Plenty of other restaurant establishments in town to fill out an inspectors day.


----------



## machski (Dec 10, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> Can't say I disagree, and I am hopeful that if any inspections of the resort occur, we are not shut down.


Inside would be my only area of concern.  Outside, most are complying and staff is fully compliant.  An individual or two not masked will be on the individual not the resort outside IMHO.


----------



## Pez (Dec 10, 2020)

Live free and die.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Very small droplets achieve suspension, and will move in air currents and eddies, and will move upward.  Large droplets fall.


You completely missed the context. Or purposely skirted it even when reminded. 

Outdoors, those "small droplets" will just go "up" sky high and get totally diluted in the open air


----------



## 1dog (Dec 10, 2020)

It's strange - do we fear government because it can take away our joy and love of winter, skiing, riding and outdoor activities?  Or do we fear the disease? If we fear the disease - we stay in. If we fear government - that's a huge problem.

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

 I wear a mask and follow guidelines out of respect for others, and to comply to the point of ' this is temporary'. But boy, if the powers that be continue to make policy they don't follow  themselves, or even try to, understand the damage to the greatest middle class in history, we are in much bigger trouble.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

abc said:


> You completely missed the context. Or purposely skirted it even when reminded.
> 
> Outdoors, those "small droplets" will just go "up" sky high and get totally diluted in the open air


It was stated by someone in this thread that people sitting eating would not effect people walking by because their droplets would not go up but would go down. Not sure who that was and too lazy to look or care.


----------



## flakeydog (Dec 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> It was stated by someone in this thread that people sitting eating would not effect people walking by because their droplets would not go up but would go down. Not sure who that was and too lazy to look or care.


I believe the term you are looking for is "_*skyrocket downward*_" as stated by this country's leading Epidemiologist.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 10, 2020)

Los said:


> Just one last note - hats off to Bretton Woods - they’re following all the ridiculous protocols of course; but what I did not see once when we skied there on Sunday was anyone (employee or skier) making any remark to anyone about wearing a mask or how well they were wearing it. There were zero mask admonishments as far as I could tell. As should be the case.


I had one young liftie tell me to put it up as I was getting on the lift with know around aka ski on and he is standing by the shack/ controls.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> It was stated by someone in this thread that people sitting eating would not effect people walking by because their droplets would not go up but would go down. Not sure who that was and too lazy to look or care.


100%  WRONG
  Aerosolized droplets can go 10-15 feet w/ a cough or a sneeze


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

2Planker said:


> 100%  WRONG
> Aerosolized droplets can go 10-15 feet w/ a cough or a sneeze


Not saying it was right just stating why someone else replied the way they did.


----------



## flakeydog (Dec 10, 2020)

Seinfeld: The Magic Loogie


----------



## Puck it (Dec 10, 2020)

2Planker said:


> 100%  WRONG
> Aerosolized droplets can go 10-15 feet w/ a cough or a sneeze


I am so glad I did not see anyone coughing or sneezing at Bretton Woods.  The whole mountain could have been infected.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 10, 2020)

Ever wonder if anyone (government) ever reads these forums? I do know that the NYC FDNY was monitoring an HVAC site to see if anyone was discussing the new license exam, the one I was teaching at the time. So..I wonder if the different NE states ever check out our little forums..for information about what is going on at the ski hills. This is why I will not be talking about infractions..or anything covid related. Sure fire way to get them shut down or at least inspected more frequently. 
Also asking people who say they are going to Vermont if they quarantined, got tested? Not something to talk about on a public site at this time..just my opinion.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 10, 2020)

Just like colleges checking social media to see if students are quarantining....
One NE school expelled many students based on what was visible on social media.

Also know of students who have been kicked out of Med/Dent school for posting Pt clinical photos on Social Media. 
Not good, Big HIPPA violation. Fine can be in the Millions $$$$$$


----------



## Zermatt (Dec 10, 2020)

My small town mayor in CT just implied that testing out from travel quarantine could be going away.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2020)

Puck it said:


> I am so glad I did not see anyone coughing or sneezing at Bretton Woods.  The whole mountain could have been infected.


Bretton Wood is only 15' long? That's one tiny mountain!


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Also know of students who have been kicked out of Med/Dent school for posting Pt clinical photos on Social Media.
> Not good, Big HIPPA violation. Fine can be in the Millions $$$$$$


If any "future doctor/dentist" had so little respect for the patients privacy to post photos? They should NEVER be allowed to become actual doctor/dentist!

Seems to me the punishment fits the crime.

(besides, if they're so free to violate HIPPA, they may be just as cavalier to other regulations and practices. Do you want them to operate on you?)


----------



## drjeff (Dec 10, 2020)

abc said:


> If any "future doctor/dentist" had so little respect for the patients privacy to post photos? They should NEVER be allowed to become actual doctor/dentist!
> 
> Seems to me the punishment fits the crime.
> 
> (besides, if they're so free to violate HIPPA, they may be just as cavalier to other regulations and practices. Do you want them to operate on you?)


Technically from a HIPPA standpoint, PATIENTS aren't supposed to be on their phones while in the treatment rooms either based on the chance that they potentially could photo/video another patient in the office at the same time.

I can say that I've never taken a picture of a patient to post on social media. Certainly taken plenty of pictures of patients in treatment though, with their consent, to use in communication with other professional colleagues and/or labs.

Also had many pictures of me, taken with patients, by either the patient of their parent, that have been posted on social media after things such as a child's first visit or the completion of a great case, in which the patients post often becomes a GOOD form of free social media marketing. 

There are some clear "don't go there EVER" situations where it comes to the delivery of Healthcare and posts to social media. There are also some items that fall into the "gray area" and even a few, that with both parties consent, are "green light" items.

And what defines all 3 of those may even have a bit to do as well about what one's employment situation is (large corporate/State/Federal facility vs a small, private, non corporate facility)


----------



## zoomzoom (Dec 10, 2020)

an update from the CDC dated 10/5/20, regarding the airborne transmission of covid.  the CDC states that airborne transmission of covid19 can occur 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/scientific-brief-sars-cov-2.html
https://www.who.int/news-room/comme...ications-for-infection-prevention-precautions

you can believe the CDC and the World Health Org, or trump.  



​


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> an update from the CDC dated 10/5/20, regarding the airborne transmission of covid.  *the CDC states that airborne transmission of covid19 can occur*



I mean, that's literally the way you get COVID19.

As of the last time I checked a few months ago, I dont think there were any known/proven surface contact cases globally.  This is the language still on the CDC site, _"Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads._" - that's very intentionally ambiguous language which would seem to suggest it can spread by surface contact, but if it can, they cant prove it yet. It's CYA language.

But Clorox wipes are still flying off the shelves faster than their manufacturing lines can produce it.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I mean, that's literally the way you get COVID19.
> 
> As of the last time I checked a few months ago, I dont think there were any known/proven surface contact cases globally.  This is the language still on the CDC site, _"Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads._" - that's very intentionally ambiguous language which would seem to suggest it can spread by surface contact, but if it can, they cant prove it yet. It's CYA language.
> 
> But Clorox wipes are still flying off the shelves faster than their manufacturing lines can produce it.



The fact that you still see so many people wearing gloves in public out of COVID fear is laughable, and does nothing but further decrease a glove supply that going to have some supply issues for sure in the coming months (think of all those gloves that will be used during the vaccination of literally BILLION worldwide, and often with the need for 2 doses, and with an added strain on the supply side due to one of the largest glove manufacturers in the world, which is a plant in Malyasia being off line due to a fire at the plant recently that will have it offline for a while as well.

My suppliers are telling me that the gloves that I currently get at about $25-30 for a box of 100 will likely spike to about $50 a box in the next few months as worldwide vaccinations start, if they can even get gloves to sell me!


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 11, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Technically from a HIPPA standpoint, PATIENTS aren't supposed to be on their phones while in the treatment rooms either based on the chance that they potentially could photo/video another patient in the office at the same time.
> 
> I can say that I've never taken a picture of a patient to post on social media. Certainly taken plenty of pictures of patients in treatment though, with their consent, to use in communication with other professional colleagues and/or labs.
> 
> ...





abc said:


> If any "future doctor/dentist" had so little respect for the patients privacy to post photos? They should NEVER be allowed to become actual doctor/dentist!
> 
> Seems to me the punishment fits the crime.
> 
> (besides, if they're so free to violate HIPPA, they may be just as cavalier to other regulations and practices. Do you want them to operate on you?)




Exactly !!  Most future offenders have had Ethical issues while in school....
     Usually for initial violation they are suspended, and have to do some type of remediation, before being allowed back...
     In the long run, it will take them 6mo-1yr longer to graduate, at $80,000/yr tuition.


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I mean, that's literally the way you get COVID19.
> 
> As of the last time I checked a few months ago, I dont think there were any known/proven surface contact cases globally.  This is the language still on the CDC site, _"Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads._" - that's very intentionally ambiguous language which would seem to suggest it can spread by surface contact, but if it can, they cant prove it yet. It's CYA language.
> 
> But Clorox wipes are still flying off the shelves faster than their manufacturing lines can produce it.


I was a suburb a while ago and watched a UPS guy drop a box by a front door . Main door opens screen door opens 6" a hand extends around with a can of Lysol , she sprayed it for 10 seconds ( On her hands an knees )  , 5 minutes latter she went out with gloves and picked up the box . I can only imagine what the opening procedure was like  LOL


----------



## mbedle (Dec 11, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I was a suburb a while ago and watched a UPS guy drop a box by a front door . Main door opens screen door opens 6" a hand extends around with a can of Lysol , she sprayed it for 10 seconds ( On her hands an knees )  , 5 minutes latter she went out with gloves and picked up the box . I can only imagine what the opening procedure was like  LOL


----------



## cdskier (Dec 11, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I was a suburb a while ago and watched a UPS guy drop a box by a front door . Main door opens screen door opens 6" a hand extends around with a can of Lysol , she sprayed it for 10 seconds ( On her hands an knees )  , 5 minutes latter she went out with gloves and picked up the box . I can only imagine what the opening procedure was like  LOL


This sounds like what my grandmother does every day with the mail (even though my aunt who used to be a nurse told her there's no reason to). Meanwhile she sees no problem going out to the beauty parlor to get her hair done though! (She's 95 fwiw).


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 11, 2020)

That’s my wife’s exact routine. Except w/ Microban. Then everything sits in the garage for 3 days before coming inside the house. 
I’m in HC and already lost my Dad, so who am I to put up a fight


----------



## abc (Dec 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont think there were any known/proven surface contact cases globally.


It's also very difficult to prove though. Most of the time, when a surface is touched by two people, they tend to have met face to face, which falls into the air transmission route. 

The only way to "prove" surface transmission is they touch the surface at a separate time. But it also need to be outdoors. Because if it's indoors, you can't tell if it's because the virus in the room air is being recirculated. 

So, it's easier to prove a transmission channel. But much harder to prove a NON-transmission channel. 

Even harder if that transmission venue is overshadowed by other much more likely transmission venues. The lack of documented surface transmission at least tells us it's not the dominant transmission venue.


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


>


LMAO The first minute I thought she was serious ...


----------



## spiderpig (Dec 12, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Just like colleges checking social media to see if students are quarantining....
> One NE school expelled many students based on what was visible on social media.
> 
> Also know of students who have been kicked out of Med/Dent school for posting Pt clinical photos on Social Media.
> Not good, Big HIPPA violation. Fine can be in the Millions $$$$$$


HIPAA


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2020)

It seems like a lot of people from outside of VT are still skiing in VT without quarantining. So a lot must be lying. And why not? No one is getting busted.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 12, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> It seems like a lot of people from outside of VT are still skiing in VT without quarantining. So a lot must be lying. And why not? No one is getting busted.


How do you know?  Serious question.  From observing this forum or in real like at the mountains?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> How do you know?  Serious question.  From observing this forum or in real like at the mountains?


Well for 1 example a few friends of my sons have been traveling up on weekends to ski with their family. The kids have been going to school and their parents to work. Others on here while not coming out and saying it (while some have said it-  Dr Jeff) seem to be traveling back and forth to their primary homes and working on a regular basis.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2020)

ive been in vermont since wednesday. at killington Wednesday based on license plates and general atmosphere i would assume most were not quarantined. sugarbush yesterday and friday seemed better. not sure about today, avoiding Saturday AM, will go out after noon. i did quarantine.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 12, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well for 1 example a few friends of my sons have been traveling up on weekends to ski with their family. The kids have been going to school and their parents to work. Others on here while not coming out and saying it (while some have said it-  Dr Jeff) seem to be traveling back and forth to their primary homes and working on a regular basis.


Yeah I'm not sure how people can justify traveling every week with the kids in school. I really hope these people don't end up giving VT a reason to shut down the mountains


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Yeah I'm not sure how people can justify traveling every week with the kids in school. I really hope these people don't end up giving VT a reason to shut down the mountains


I agree that anyone breaking the rules could jeopardize it. Like I said they there have been no reports of anyone getting in trouble for it so what is the deterrent?


----------



## abc (Dec 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Yeah I'm not sure how people can justify traveling every week with the kids in school. I really hope these people don't end up giving VT a reason to shut down the mountains


It may not be "justifiable". But they're just as selfish as the VT locals who wish to keep the mountain to themselves. No more, no less.

VT can close the mountains. then no danger of out-of-staters "bringing the virus" to VT! (even though in reality, it's the locals who spread it around among themselves).

Look at Europe, they chose to close the lifts instead of closing the border. Their justification of their choice being, remove the temptation for leisure travel, leaving essential travel & commerce alone. A different attempt at controlling the virus spread with least impact to economy.

VT can also *enforce* the quarantine rule, if they really are serious about the virus situation. This half-hearted "unenforced rules" are just a joke!


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 12, 2020)

abc said:


> VT can also *enforce* the quarantine rule, if they really are serious about the virus situation. This half-hearted "unenforced rules" are just a joke!


It's not enforceable on a large scale and Vermont knows it which is why for the most part it hasnt been taken much further than strongly suggesting


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> It's not enforceable on a large scale and Vermont knows it which is why for the most part it hasnt been taken much further than strongly suggesting


Their website does say mandatory but as you said it is a joke


----------



## cdskier (Dec 12, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well for 1 example a few friends of my sons have been traveling up on weekends to ski with their family. The kids have been going to school and their parents to work. Others on here while not coming out and saying it (while some have said it-  Dr Jeff) seem to be traveling back and forth to their primary homes and working on a regular basis.



There's certainly some people that I see posting about skiing that I have serious doubts about whether they quarantined...


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 12, 2020)

abc said:


> It may not be "justifiable". But they're just as selfish as the VT locals who wish to keep the mountain to themselves. No more, no less.
> 
> VT can close the mountains. then no danger of out-of-staters "bringing the virus" to VT! (even though in reality, it's the locals who spread it around among themselves).
> 
> ...


It’s probably to cover their asses for any sort of liability but they certainly don’t want to say no to money. Imho that’s probably the reality.


----------



## zoomzoom (Dec 12, 2020)

there's contact transmission, droplet transmission (the 6 ft rule) and airborne transmission.  are you confusing droplet transmission and airborne transmission?  i mean, this is yuge.  folks in restaurants, at inside gatherings, airplanes, etc are nutz.  imo of course.  here's a quote.    

*Airborne transmission* is infection spread through exposure to those virus-containing respiratory droplets comprised of smaller droplets and particles that can remain suspended in the air over long distances (usually greater than 6 feet) and time (typically hours). 

i go out hiking and shopping, and that's it.  the world spins on out of my control and people do what people do.  some days i think there's some bleed over here from thedonald.win


----------



## ss20 (Dec 12, 2020)

Everything I've looked at shows me VT's numbers have stayed flat the past three weeks 

Average positive tests has been right around 100 since the 15th (with an expected dip at Thanksgiving).
Hospitalization Nov 15- 20, Dec 11- 26
ICU beds filled has been averaging 5 since Thanksgiving.


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 12, 2020)

abc said:


> It may not be "justifiable". But they're just as selfish as the VT locals who wish to keep the mountain to themselves. No more, no less.
> 
> VT can close the mountains. then no danger of out-of-staters "bringing the virus" to VT! (even though in reality, it's the locals who spread it around among themselves).
> 
> ...


It's not the locals setting the rules.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 13, 2020)

abc said:


> It may not be "justifiable". But they're just as selfish as the VT locals who wish to keep the mountain to themselves. No more, no less.
> 
> VT can close the mountains. then no danger of out-of-staters "bringing the virus" to VT! (even though in reality, it's the locals who spread it around among themselves).
> 
> ...


With the EU, you can't really close the borders. 
That would be same as closing all state borders in the US - Never going to happen


----------



## Zermatt (Dec 13, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> It's not the locals setting the rules.


Then who is it? The mystery robot government force?


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 13, 2020)

billo said:


> Then who is it? The mystery robot government force?


It's the state government.


----------



## abc (Dec 13, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> It's not the locals setting the rules.





tnt1234 said:


> It's the state government.


which is technically elected by the "locals"...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2020)

abc said:


> which is technically elected by the "locals"...


I guess you are calling everyone in VT a local?
I guess us government is elected by “locals” as well.


----------



## abc (Dec 13, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I guess you are calling everyone in VT a local?


Everyone who're eligible to vote. 

Unless you don't count "transplants" as local...


----------



## Zermatt (Dec 13, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> It's the state government.


You're not getting it.


----------



## gittist (Dec 13, 2020)

Has Vermont reduced the quarantine to 10-days yet?


----------



## ss20 (Dec 14, 2020)

gittist said:


> Has Vermont reduced the quarantine to 10-days yet?



Funny guy....that'd be a rational, science-based decision that balances economic and public health.  The real question is have they made it 21 days yet?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 14, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Funny guy....that'd be a rational, science-based decision that balances economic and public health.  The real question is have they made it 21 days yet?



Funny how the phrase "follow the science" gets used by those making the public policy decisions when it justifies their greater restrictions on society, often becomes a hypocritical situation of "look at their silence" when the science supports lessening the restrictions they put on society.

This disease is real and with dire consequences for some. No doubt in my mind about that.

The responses from our leaders about how they choose to handle it, especially lately, when we have a much greater understanding of this disease process than we had back in the Spring, has certainly brought one with some critical thinking skills to question if our leaders are all about public health or governmental power via societal fear


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Funny how the phrase "follow the science" gets used by those making the public policy decisions when it justifies their greater restrictions on society, often becomes a hypocritical situation of "look at their silence" when the science supports lessening the restrictions they put on society.
> 
> This disease is real and with dire consequences for some. No doubt in my mind about that.
> 
> The responses from our leaders about how they choose to handle it, especially lately, when we have a much greater understanding of this disease process than we had back in the Spring, has certainly brought one with some critical thinking skills to question if our leaders are all about public health or governmental power via societal fear


Nail on the head.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2020)

ok dr tin foil hat

its too bad my parents are dentists, because ive never been as tempted to make some swipe about dentists not being real doctors.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ok dr tin foil hat
> 
> its too bad my parents are dentists, because ive never been as tempted to make some swipe about dentists not being real doctors.



In x number of months when the threat of this virus is essentially zero you'll see what he's talking about.  

VT, NY, CA all gonna have draconian restrictions still in place while most other states are 95% back to normal.  Calling it now.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2020)

states have nothing to gain by crippling their economies and shrinking their tax revenue. It’s a dumb fucking conspiracy theory.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> states have nothing to gain by crippling their economies and shrinking their tax revenue. It’s a dumb fucking conspiracy theory.


LOL!


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ok dr tin foil hat
> 
> its too bad my parents are dentists, because ive never been as tempted to make some swipe about dentists not being real doctors.





KustyTheKlown said:


> ok dr tin foil hat
> 
> its too bad my parents are dentists, because ive never been as tempted to make some swipe about dentists not being real doctors.




Remember SARS in 2009.  Dentists were administering the Vacc., and may be doing so again for Covid.
Why not, if a Pharmacy Tech can do it....


----------



## drjeff (Dec 14, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Remember SARS in 2009.  Dentists were administering the Vacc., and may be doing so again for Covid.
> Why not, if a Pharmacy Tech can do it....


Dentists WILL be administering the vaccine, the requests from various Departments of Health, have already been sent out.

Initially dentists, who volunteer and if their services are needed, will be administering vaccinations in a location such as a Federally Qualified Healthcenter or Hospital setting where initial vaccine distribution plans will be focused around. 

Potentially as phase 2 or 3 of vaccinations of the general public happens, and if a more temperature stable, less time sensitive vaccine is approved, then vaccinations may eventually happen in the dental office.


----------



## MidnightJester (Dec 14, 2020)

Its less the Conspiracy issue and more that Leaders mostly the Democrat's are saying no deaths is the only end point we care about. Unfortunetly that will destory many many peoples lives and Jobs.  We have to come to accept now and I mean NOW that we will have 70,000 to 100,000 deaths a year from COVID-19 and its mutations.  If we dont come to that relization we will never leave Lockdowns and Masks and all the crap that comes along with it.

We accept 50,000 cold deaths in a bad year.
We accept 80,000 FLU deaths in a bad year.
WE HAVE TO ACCEPT DEATHS FROM COVID. 80,000 or more should be accepted. To think otherwise you dont understand the reality that is here already.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2020)

We SARS Vacc over 3,000 Pts in 2009.
They're saying possibly 5-10x that this time....

CNN, NECN, Ch 5, Fox25 all here filming the Vacc's being unloaded
Our (TMC) Frontliners get the Vacc tmrw

MGH, BMC & UMass Med Cntr on Weds


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

MidnightJester said:


> Its less the Conspiracy issue and more that Leaders mostly the Democrat's are saying no deaths is the only end point we care about. Unfortunetly that will destory many many peoples lives and Jobs.  We have to come to accept now and I mean NOW that we will have 70,000 to 100,000 deaths a year from COVID-19 and its mutations.  If we dont come to that relization we will never leave Lockdowns and Masks and all the crap that comes along with it.
> 
> We accept 50,000 cold deaths in a bad year.
> We accept 80,000 FLU deaths in a bad year.
> WE HAVE TO ACCEPT DEATHS FROM COVID. 80,000 or more which 80% are *over 65 and have comorbidities* should be accepted To think otherwise you dont understand the reality that is here already.


Fixed it.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> WE HAVE TO ACCEPT DEATHS FROM COVID. 80,000 or more which 80% are *over 65 and have comorbidities* should be accepted


Why stop there? How about those "handicapped, feeble minded, homosexuals, and Jews..."

Oops, sorry wrong thread.


----------



## EPB (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Why stop there? How about those "handicapped, feeble minded, homosexuals, and Jews..."
> 
> Oops, sorry wrong thread.


Wow.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Why stop there? How about those "handicapped, feeble minded, homosexuals, and Jews..."
> 
> Oops, sorry wrong thread.


That is a fact from the CDC data on 12/2.  I am not sure why you are saying the others.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> That is a fact from the CDC data on 12/2.  I am not sure why you are saying the others.


Where did CDC say we need to *accept* those deaths and do nothing to reduce it?


----------



## EPB (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Where did CDC say we need to *accept* those deaths and do nothing to reduce it?


This is a red herring, you idiot.

Congratulations - you're the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm out of here. Maybe, I'll come back after vaccines are widely distributed. Maybe not. The discourse on here has been at cesspool levels for a while, and I've officially lost hope that it will get better soon. It's not just you, and it's not just one side of the political fence. Both sides have their obvious merits and demerits. The debate here has become a contest to determine who can make the same arguments (whether they have merit or not) longer than the other guy, and I'm done.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Why stop there? How about those "handicapped, feeble minded, homosexuals, and Jews..."
> 
> Oops, sorry wrong thread.


Your "jokes" are extremely offensive to many here.

So GROW THE FUCK UP


----------



## ScottySkis (Dec 14, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Your "jokes" are extremely offensive to many here.
> 
> So GROW THE FUCK UP


It got beyond ridiculous today


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Your "jokes" are extremely offensive to many here.
> 
> So GROW THE FUCK UP


So it's ok to scarify a vast number of "near majority" with co-morbidity (45% of population over 50 have co-morbidity). But not ok to offend some powerful minority by drawing a parallel!

"Accept their death"! There's nothing more offensive than that!

It's those "powerful minority" who ignore the majority who will find out no one comes to their rescue when they're made to be the scapegoat.

GROW THE FUCK UP


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> So it's ok to scarify a vast number of "near majority" with co-morbidity (45% of population over 50 have co-morbidity). But not ok to offend some powerful minority by drawing a parallel!
> 
> "Accept their death"! There's nothing more offensive than that!
> 
> ...


What àbout all the heart disease, cancer deaths, auto accident deaths?  Those were people too.  There is an inherit risk to live your life. Oh snap, skier deaths too.  No one is saying that the deaths are not bad. Any avertable death is a shame. Life is just one big actuarial table.  You need to live it.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> What àbout all the heart disease, cancer deaths, auto accident deaths?


What about it??? So why single out those with co-morbidity?


----------



## MidnightJester (Dec 14, 2020)

I dont want to cause more grief to those that lost people in Horrible ways or those struggling with health issues but Accepting death is something that has been Lost over the last few decades due to the decreasing number that people see or hear about while death in most peoples lives has always been present.
Since it is usually only the Ugly deaths that appear in most News Stories the rest are there Hidden from View but people need to realize that before Covid there were already 8000 deaths a DAY in american. FLU, Cold, Car accident, Cancer, Murder, Overdose you name it.

And Society as a whole does accept 50,000+ deaths in american like a it never happened or did. Never even in bad FLU year have I hear anything but a blip about 70,000 deaths and that people should get vaccinated. Schools never closed neither did any location. Kids with sniffles go about their life. Parents do the best they can.

Remeber even with the FLU vaccines that we are running death tolls 50,000 plus a year. With Covid it will be the same or worse


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> What about it??? So why single out those with co-morbidity?


Becuase those are the people at risk and need to take the precautions.


----------



## RISkier (Dec 14, 2020)

MidnightJester said:


> I dont want to cause more grief to those that lost people in Horrible ways or those struggling with health issues but Accepting death is something that has been Lost over the last few decades due to the decreasing number that people see or hear about while death in most peoples lives has always been present.
> Since it is usually only the Ugly deaths that appear in most News Stories the rest are there Hidden from View but people need to realize that before Covid there were already 8000 deaths a DAY in american. FLU, Cold, Car accident, Cancer, Murder, Overdose you name it.
> 
> And Society as a whole does accept 50,000+ deaths in american like a it never happened or did. Never even in bad FLU year have I hear anything but a blip about 70,000 deaths and that people should get vaccinated. Schools never closed neither did any location. Kids with sniffles go about their life. Parents do the best they can.
> ...



If you look at the overall number of deaths it's way higher than the expected number of total deaths based on data prior to the onset of the pandemic. And it's considerably higher than the 300,000 mark that we reportedly passed today. The pressure on ICUs and front line health care workers also means that persons having serious car accidents, or heart attacks, or strokes, or .... may not have the care they need. While it's mostly the elderly and persons with pre-existing risk factors who are passing away, healthy young people are not exempt. And they aren't exempt from things like long term heart problems. I know a young, healthy person in the early 40's who is experiencing long term effects. Yes the flu is bad. Yes, people die from cancer, and murder, and drug overdose, and ... But, except for flu, they aren't catching those things by interacting with others. So for me the idea that we should just accept that people die and move on is just not acceptable.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Becuase those are the people at risk and need to take the precautions.


But that's an empty statement. 

They're the nurses in the hospital. They are the Amazon warehouse pickers. They're the janitor who clean the toilet of your office. They may even be your co-worker who you didn't know are taking hypertension drugs because he looks and acts just fine. 

So how do you propose these vast percentage of people "take precaution" when your boss ask them to go back to the office? "because only the old and weak die from Covid"! 

Much of the restriction we're having IS to protect the perfectly productive but less than perfectly healthy member of our society, so they will remain productive!  

WE can't travel as we would have like so that the diabetic hotel room cleaner don't get Covid from people who stay in the room the night before. Sure, some would have wanted to work because they need the money. But if we didn't have a lock down, they may need to worry more than just grocery money. They would have to figure out how to support themselves when they can't work any more after catching Covid. 

Don't forget, WE the tax payers are picking up the tab for all the "free" covid treatments of the uninsured. Be it old or young, however many co-morbidity they have.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> But that's an empty statement.
> 
> They're the nurses in the hospital. They are the Amazon warehouse pickers. They're the janitor who clean the toilet of your office. They may even be your co-worker who you didn't know are taking hypertension drugs because he looks and acts just fine.
> 
> ...


Rant.  What about the starving kids in Africa.  The female oppression in some Muslims countries.  The persecution of Muslims in China. The India and Pakistan border disputes.  The Mexican and Columibian drug cartels poisoning Americans.  Etc etc etc.  it goes on and on.  The world sucks if you let it get to you. There will be death and birth.  So is the circle of life.  Now I have gone full Disney.


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Now I have gone full Disney.


Since you started it, it's your right to go full circle.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Since you started it, it's your right to go full circle.


Turn of your TV and stay in your house until mid 2020


----------



## abc (Dec 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Turn of your TV and stay in your house until mid 2020


That's a perfect illustration of people like you. You try to tell others how they should live their life, according to YOUR opinion!


----------



## Puck it (Dec 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Since you started it, it's your right to go full circle.


Nope you can stay


abc said:


> That's a perfect illustration of people like you. You try to tell others how they should live their life, according to YOUR opinion!


Kettle!


----------



## JimG. (Dec 14, 2020)

Oh boy that was exhausting.

Dr. G.'s prescription is more skiing.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 15, 2020)

I second the motion...


----------



## ss20 (Dec 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> In x number of months when the threat of this virus is essentially zero you'll see what he's talking about.
> 
> VT, NY, CA all gonna have draconian restrictions still in place while most other states are 95% back to normal.  Calling it now.



To add to my point VT just installed over 300 PERMANENT metal road signs telling visitors they need to quarantine.  I don't think "back to normal" is in the state's lexicon.  









						VTrans’ $600,000 COVID-19 sign blitz targets travel into Vermont
					

GUILFORD, Vt. — Vermont’s fight against COVID-19 has a new driving force: the Vermont Agency of Transportation, which has unveiled $600,000 worth of federally funded signs at border entrances and highway exits.“We’re trying to get people’s attention,”...



					www.vnews.com
				




I don't know what kind of "conspiracy" this is.  Some states are going extreme with restrictions.  That's a fact.  "Too" extreme or "just right" or "not enough" is an opinion...but what VT is doing is certainly extreme you can't deny it.  It's been said states don't want to commit economic suicide and will get rid of restrictions as soon as safely possible.  I don't think the voters in VT agree.  And politicians want to get re-elected so they'll do whatever the public wants.  And I think (not know....my guess) that VT population is probably some of the most COVID-fearing in the nation hence leaders doing what they know will get them re-elected, regardless of long-term economic health.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 15, 2020)

Are you suggesting that I will have to quarantine every time I visit VT for the rest of my life because they put in PERMANENT road signs?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> To add to my point VT just installed over 300 PERMANENT metal road signs telling visitors they need to quarantine.  I don't think "back to normal" is in the state's lexicon.



Did you read the entire article you referenced? The article specifically says they're NOT permanent and simply more efficient and cheaper than continuing to use solar powered ones...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2020)

lol METAL ROAD SIDES = GOVERNMENT TYRANNY FOREVER!


----------



## Keelhauled (Dec 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Did you read the entire article you referenced? The article specifically says they're NOT permanent and simply more efficient and cheaper than continuing to use solar powered ones...


Don't know know where you are?  This is the internet, why would I read the article when I can OVERREACT and LEAP TO CONCLUSIONS?


----------



## ss20 (Dec 15, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> Don't know know where you are?  This is the internet, why would I read the article when I can OVERREACT and LEAP TO CONCLUSIONS?



I do LOVE my caps to make POINTS. 

Yes I read it but I doubt they'd be putting them up if they didn't think they'd be using them for a quite a while longer.


----------



## Jully (Dec 15, 2020)

Many construction sites along the highway put in metal signs. Not long term, not short term, but medium term!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 16, 2020)

$600,000?   OMG that state is a parody of it's own stupidity.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2020)

I just saw one of those Vermont “mandatory quarantine“ signs.  Where?  On the ramp that connects I-91 north to I-89 south.

Yep.  That’s right.  As you are entering New Hampshire.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 16, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I just saw one of those Vermont “mandatory quarantine“ signs.  Where?  On the ramp that connects I-91 north to I-89 south.
> 
> Yep.  That’s right.  As you are entering New Hampshire.



they want you to be aware that if you leave you cant just come right back in

the signs are also at the major ski exits on 89, so you're already well into vermont. they want the ski tourists to see it at exists 9 and 10.


----------



## gittist (Dec 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> states have nothing to gain by crippling their economies and shrinking their tax revenue. It’s a dumb fucking conspiracy theory.


Yes they do, they get to beg the federal government for money. However they don't realize that they've crippled the federal governments revenue stream at the same time that they put their economies in the crapper.  What's that saying about killing the goose that laid the golden egg?

The Bank of Mom and Dad don't have the money either...


----------



## 1dog (Dec 16, 2020)

gittist said:


> Yes they do, they get to beg the federal government for money. However they don't realize that they've crippled the federal governments revenue stream at the same time that they put their economies in the crapper.  What's that saying about killing the goose that laid the golden egg?
> 
> The Bank of Mom and Dad don't have the money either...


Sure they do. Its called MMT - and heck since it can print all the money it could ever desire, those who actually support this nonsense ( in the true meaning of that word) should not require any tax revenue of any kind. Simply run the printing press. Its worked so well for all the empires who did it previous to the US. 

Keep thumbs on small businesses - generally independent people - let multinationals take the business away - and you have ( mostly) subservient populace. Globalism on steroids. $600K to 'save money instead of utilizing those solar-powered signs' is an oxymoron. Once paid for, ostensibly they are supposed to be 'free'.


----------



## mister moose (Dec 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> states have nothing to gain by crippling their economies and shrinking their tax revenue. It’s a dumb fucking conspiracy theory.


Yet they do it anyway.  Connecticut has been doing it for decades.  The CT wealthy with houses in Florida now keep logbooks to prove they are out of CT 185 days a year.  They keep their house and move their residency to a tax friendly state.   Loss of tax revenue has been huge.  Same thing for corporations, either the headquarters goes or the whole company goes.   Expansion always occurs out of state.  The unfunded liabilities are coming due, and smart companies don't want to be here when the tax man comes calling.  Moving companies a while back quoted 7 trucks leaving for every truck arriving.  Doubt it's changed much.  In an era of expanding US population, CT *LOST* a congressional seat.  COVID migration has helped with NYC dwellers fleeing, but that's mostly Fairfield and Litchfield counties.  A few years ago, Governor Malloy made the amazing pronouncement that he had to borrow in the billions to "balance" the budget (It's not balanced if you run a deficit, duh) and then when he didn't spend all of the loan, he declared a budget surplus!!!

So yes, some states do cripple their own economies.  Cities do as well.  I've had a front row seat to both.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 16, 2020)

1dog said:


> *Simply run the printing press. *Its worked so well for all the empires who did it previous to the US.



M3 Money Supply says Hi!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 16, 2020)

^  And this is one of the (several) reasons I was buying everyone's ExxonMobil stock when they were recently panic selling & plummeting it.

The phrase, _"Not worth a Continental"_ hasnt been used in America in several hundred years, but it may be time to bring it back soon.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2020)

Camelback looks busy.


----------



## gittist (Dec 22, 2020)

gittist said:


> Has Vermont reduced the quarantine to 10-days yet?


Reply from Vermont Health Department on 12/22/2020 to my inquiry:

Thank you for contacting the Health Department with your inquiry. The CDC has released new options to shorten quarantine and has allowed state and local public health authorities to determine and establish the quarantine option for their jurisdictions. At this time, there are no plans to change Vermont's existing policy, which calls for a 14-day quarantine, or gives the option to get a PCT test on day 7 or later to end quarantine early with a negative test, as long as the person continues to have no symptoms. The policy implemented in May is well-understood by Vermonters and our data shows it has worked to prevent further spread of COVID-19.

We will continue to review our guidance regularly to make sure we are using best practices based on data and science throughout the pandemic. Please visit our website for updates to the guidance: https://www.healthvermont.gov/covid-19.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2020)

Just got notification that I am able to schedule my vaccination and have done so for next Monday.  So later next week, if I start making even less sense than I typically do, you'll know there's some side effects!


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2020)

Anyone know how they are monitoring things at the airport in Portland?  Gotta buddy from DC looking to fly up to ski Saddleback.  His work schedule won't allow for him to meet the states Covid quarantine guidelines.

I know plenty of people from Southern New England are driving up to ski.  Just curious if those flying in are getting hassles


----------



## ScottySkis (Dec 22, 2020)

From snowy ridge in lake effect Turin NY

As we continue pushing out piles and prepping for the season, we have some unfortunate news to share. 
. 
We’re sorry to say that we will be pushing our opening day plans back until at least after Christmas. We have identified a potential Covid exposure through our daily employee health screenings and are currently working through our contact tracing and testing protocol. This is certainly not the way that we wanted to start our season, but we are very happy to see that our safety procedures are working and that we were able to catch this incident before we opened to the public. We will keep everyone posted with our new opening plans and will get the lifts spinning as soon as it is safe to do so. 
. 
We apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your understanding in these very unsettling times. We wish everyone a happy and safe holiday and look forward to getting out on the slopes with everyone soon! #snowridge2021 #openingday #safetyfirst #wellbeshreddingsoon


----------



## Dickc (Dec 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know how they are monitoring things at the airport in Portland?  Gotta buddy from DC looking to fly up to ski Saddleback.  His work schedule won't allow for him to meet the states Covid quarantine guidelines.
> 
> I know plenty of people from Southern New England are driving up to ski.  Just curious if those flying in are getting hassles


Is portland easier than somewhere like Bangor?  I would think Bangor might just be a little closer?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2020)

Dickc said:


> Is portland easier than somewhere like Bangor?  I would think Bangor might just be a little closer?


He already booked his flight to Portland.  Was direct from DC and cheap.  Bangor is probably only about 45 minutes closer


----------



## Dickc (Dec 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> He already booked his flight to Portland.  Was direct from DC and cheap.  Bangor is probably only about 45 minutes closer


Just called my daughter, who lives in Maine and works at a ski resort, and she has not heard any horror stories filtering down about flier to Portland, However, bookings are starting to cancel for Christmas week as people are telling them their employer will not allow them to travel without coming home and Quarantining and that is discouraging some who had booked.  Might be a less crowded Christmas week than people are expecting.  Time will tell.


----------



## downdraft (Dec 22, 2020)

Rapid result (1 hour) PCR tests are available at the airport in Portland for $25. Maine allows a negative test as an alternative to quarantine. Advance appointments are required. I don't know if arriving passengers get priority for available time slots.


----------



## RichT (Dec 23, 2020)

Dickc said:


> Just called my daughter, who lives in Maine and works at a ski resort, and she has not heard any horror stories filtering down about flier to Portland, However, bookings are starting to cancel for Christmas week as people are telling them their employer will not allow them to travel without coming home and Quarantining and that is discouraging some who had booked.  Might be a less crowded Christmas week than people are expecting.  Time will tell.


OR it's the weather forecast.............


----------



## parahelia (Dec 23, 2020)

downdraft said:


> Rapid result (1 hour) PCR tests are available at the airport in Portland for $25. Maine allows a negative test as an alternative to quarantine. Advance appointments are required. I don't know if arriving passengers get priority for available time slots.


I’ve been wondering about these tests at the Portland airport.  The FAQ indicates that they are the Abbott ID Now test.  I tried to wade through the list of FDA EUA approved tests (linked from MA’s travel order) and it sounds like this is not a pcr test.

I would love to be wrong on this! It’s easy enough to get tested in MA before going to ME, but I haven’t figured out testing in ME on a reasonable timeframe.  The kids have in person school M/Tu so ski trips get cut short to test in MA with results back prior to school on Monday.  

First world problems, I know.


----------



## da-bum (Dec 23, 2020)

parahelia said:


> I’ve been wondering about these tests at the Portland airport.  The FAQ indicates that they are the Abbott ID Now test.  I tried to wade through the list of FDA EUA approved tests (linked from MA’s travel order) and it sounds like this is not a pcr test.
> 
> I would love to be wrong on this! It’s easy enough to get tested in MA before going to ME, but I haven’t figured out testing in ME on a reasonable timeframe.  The kids have in person school M/Tu so ski trips get cut short to test in MA with results back prior to school on Monday.
> 
> First world problems, I know.


Abbott ID Now is a rapid Molecular test that tests for the viral genetic material.  It differs from true PCR test in the way the samples are amplified.  The 'Molecular' method is the important part since other rapid test checks for the antigen protein of the virus.

I flew to a country that required rapid test with 98% sensitivity within 66hrs of my departure.  To get that kind of sensitivity, a true PCR test was the only way, a more technical term for that is 'Molecular', thus they accepted my test result.  Their specification were probably to weed out all antigen tests since none of them come close to 98% sensitivity.

Anyway, $25 seems to be pretty cheap for the Abbott ID Now test, the testing site billed my insurance $200 for it.


----------



## downdraft (Dec 23, 2020)

Agreed, I had been told that the rapid test at the airport is PCR, but it is molecular, which I believe is the key, distinguishing it from antigen testing. The Mass. DPH site "guidance for travelers" -  https://www.mass.gov/guidance/guidance-for-travelers-arriving-in-the-commonwealth-of-massachusetts - links to FDA EUA approved molecular tests.  The Abott IDNow test is on that list. All of this could have been presented to the public in a much clearer and more straightforward manner.
 FWIW, it seems that for a weekend round trip from MA to ME and back, a single rapid test at the airport upon arrival in Maine could be construed to satisfy the 72 hour rule for entering both states.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 24, 2020)

downdraft said:


> Agreed, I had been told that the rapid test at the airport is PCR, but it is molecular, which I believe is the key, distinguishing it from antigen testing. The Mass. DPH site "guidance for travelers" -  https://www.mass.gov/guidance/guidance-for-travelers-arriving-in-the-commonwealth-of-massachusetts - links to FDA EUA approved molecular tests.  The Abott IDNow test is on that list. All of this could have been presented to the public in a much clearer and more straightforward manner.
> FWIW, it seems that for a weekend round trip from MA to ME and back, a single rapid test at the airport upon arrival in Maine could be construed to satisfy the 72 hour rule for entering both states.


On some level it feels like the last thing our elected officials overseeing policy decisions with respect to COVID want is for something to be clear and easy to understand. That seems to imply that people could then seemingly carry on in a bit more of a normal, albeit still cautious, way. That certainly feels like the last thing our elected officials want at times right now.

The problem for our elected officials seems to be that private businesses off numerous types are developing and figuring out ways to either solve the issues infront of us right now or work around, and within, the numerous regulatory guidelines that the elected officials put out there, in a way that often has our elected officials having to impose even stricter regulations.

This has become almost as much about political power over the people as it is about public health in many instances. And that is a sad thing


----------



## 1dog (Dec 24, 2020)

'This has become almost as much about political power over the people as it is about public health in many instances. And that is a sad thing'

Agree 99% - just remove 'almost'. 
'the first thing a man will do for his ideals is lie.' Joseph Schumpter


----------



## parahelia (Dec 24, 2020)

downdraft said:


> Agreed, I had been told that the rapid test at the airport is PCR, but it is molecular, which I believe is the key, distinguishing it from antigen testing. The Mass. DPH site "guidance for travelers" -  https://www.mass.gov/guidance/guidance-for-travelers-arriving-in-the-commonwealth-of-massachusetts - links to FDA EUA approved molecular tests.  The Abott IDNow test is on that list. All of this could have been presented to the public in a much clearer and more straightforward manner.
> FWIW, it seems that for a weekend round trip from MA to ME and back, a single rapid test at the airport upon arrival in Maine could be construed to satisfy the 72 hour rule for entering both states.


I had been looking at the same thing, which is what got me confused.  I understand that it's not an antigen test, but the FDA EUA approved molecular test lists each test's attributes.  Many have the attribute of "Real-time RT-PCR", but the Abbott ID Now test's attributes are "RT, isothermal amplification".  MA requires a "FDA EUA-approved molecular (PCR) test", but it's hard to know if that means everything on the FDA list is OK, or only those that explicitly say PCR.

Totally agree that this should have been much better presented.  I'm a scientist (albeit in a different field) and I'm finding this confusing, dammit! They should make it easier for people to follow the rules.

If it does qualify, great point about it making weekend trips possible again - I hadn't even considered that .


----------



## da-bum (Dec 24, 2020)

The main thing is molecular and antigen, but the media is creating more confusion by using the term PCR and rapidtest.  Even highly acclaimed doctors comes on and specifically use those 2 terms, saying one is the gold standard and the other is not accurate.  You think people with casual knowledge would be saying that, but for them to dumb it down like that to the point of being inaccurate is misleading.  You think 24 hour news with more time than news to cover would go into detail with that, but they just harp on the same few 'breaking news' on an hourly basis.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2020)

Be smart, folks.....









						In a pandemic, safety at Vermont ski resorts hinges on an honor system
					

Local residents flag concerns about travelers gathering to ski, while resorts walk the line between enforcement and breaking even.



					vtdigger.org
				







> On social media, photos have circulated widely of crowded lift lines, along with stories of parking lots packed with non-Vermont license plates. Kurrle said those photos were the subject of several official complaints to the state.
> 
> In Killington’s parking lot this week, several skiers from out of state told VTDigger they hadn’t quarantined, and some had already traveled to multiple resorts.
> 
> A reporter from WCAX called to a crowd of skiers in a lift line at Killington last week, asking whether anyone was from Vermont. The crowd was silent.






> Wright said he often struggles with the issue. He has a friend who recently moved to Vermont, and she reported a significant difference in behavior from other drivers after she switched her license plates, which bothered him. Still, he was unnerved by sudden increases in drivers from out of state.
> 
> “I want them to play by the rules,” he said. “As a parent, it’s really important for my kid to go back to in-person learning. Working at the college, I just look at how much work time and effort we’ve spent into managing Covid on campus. We’ve invested all this energy, and all it takes is someone not following the rules, and then it spreads like wildfire.”
> 
> ...





> Kurrle said the industry revenue will likely decrease 40% to 70% this season, a significant hit to the state’s economy. In an average year, the sport brings around 4 million skiers and riders to Vermont.





> “We knew it’d be tough,” said Mike Solimano, president and general manager at Killington. “The ski resort business is very expensive to operate, and very capital-intensive. So most of us can’t survive with a 50% reduction in revenue. This is a survival year, to be totally honest.”
> 
> He said reservations are down 40% to 50% for the upcoming holiday week.





> An employee who frequently works at ski resorts in Southern Vermont told VTDigger he consistently sees sizable crowds that are equivalent to holiday weekends in a normal year. Guests often openly flout or joke about the guidelines, he said. He asked not to be named to protect his employment.





> Resorts can revoke skiers’ passes if they aren’t adhering to mask wearing, social distancing, or if the resort learns a skier hasn’t quarantined.
> 
> “If we find somebody hasn’t done that, we’ve already told people that we will pull their pass and probably give their name to the state,” Solimano said. “It’s the same thing if people are on site and refuse to wear a mask. We have a no tolerance policy for either of those.”


----------



## abc (Dec 24, 2020)

> Resorts can revoke skiers’ passes if they aren’t adhering to mask wearing, social distancing, or if the resort learns a skier hasn’t quarantined.
> 
> “If we find somebody hasn’t done that, we’ve already told people that we will pull their pass and probably give their name to the state,” Solimano said. “It’s the same thing if people are on site and refuse to wear a mask. We have a no tolerance policy for either of those.”


Perfect!

Vail owns multiple resorts. They can pull the passes of anyone who visited a resort outside of VT and then show up at a VT resort in less than 14 days! Right?

But of course, if you booked a priority day in NH, and another one at VT the following day, and it's done before you realize there's a quarantine restriction, you SHOULD cancel it. However, will Vail dock you for "cancellation" and restrict you from making reservation for 3 weeks? 

Do the right thing, Vail!

Or, don't do the right thing if you're an Epic pass holder. Just show up for everyday of your reservation! Quarantine my a*s


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 25, 2020)

People are fuckin’ idiots. Why tell people you haven’t quarantined? You already lied toget there just keep up the charade at that point.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Perfect!
> 
> Vail owns multiple resorts. They can pull the passes of anyone who visited a resort outside of VT and then show up at a VT resort in less than 14 days! Right?
> 
> ...



the scanning systems are not set up to flag consecutive days in different states.

for like the millionth fucking time, there is no enforcement. it is not enforced, nor is it enforceable. just don't behave like a fucking asshole.


----------



## abc (Dec 25, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> for like the millionth fucking time, there is no enforcement. it is not enforced, nor is it enforceable.


I'm just pointing out the Vail policy is encouraging people to disregard health policies. 

For example, if someone is feeling a bit unwell. Not sure it's Covid related. If they cancel, it's on Vail's book against them for cancelling. So just to be on the "safe side" as far as keeping peace with Vail, it's easier to just show up and ski. What the hell if it turns out it is Covid!


----------



## JimG. (Dec 26, 2020)

1) What Smelly said; if you're going to be a jerk don't advertise.

2) I'd care a lot more about what Vermonters are freaking out about if I didn't see so many VT plates in NY including at ski areas. Talk about hypocrisy!


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 26, 2020)

Not skiing related, but friends of my neighbors got a $500 fine this week for being in Massachusetts without quarantine.  They got pulled over for speeding, had out of state plates and were honest about visiting friends.  $500 ticket and told to go home.


----------



## zyk (Dec 26, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Not skiing related, but friends of my neighbors got a $500 fine this week for being in Massachusetts without quarantine.  They got pulled over for speeding, had out of state plates and were honest about visiting friends.  $500 ticket and told to go home.



So follow a very convoluted set of state to state rules or lie.  Not good choices.

Recently crossed multiple state lines to pick up a rescue.  No stops except for gas and only interaction was at the point of pickup.  We had been quarantined but felt it was safer that way.  Mind you I have a 7 day rental credit at Attitash so it would have been nice to have a mini vacation.


----------



## Keelhauled (Dec 26, 2020)

zyk said:


> So follow a very convoluted set of state to state rules or lie.  Not good choices.


Or you could, as the saying goes, only break one law at a time.  There is an awful lot of "don't ask, don't tell" going on with travel these days, but if you're stupid about it you kinda gotta accept the consequences IMO.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 26, 2020)

From what I’ve seen and what I generally predict, there are 3 “types” of skiers regarding traveling. The first group is the group that just goes about their daily lives somewhat recklessly and then goes skiing and is not too diligent about the masks and all and may be asked several times to pull the mask up. The second group is the people who are not necessarily quarantining, but are mostly staying home, only going out to get food, prescriptions, etc. When these people go skiing they are cautious and adhere to the safety protocols. The third group is the smallest amount of people most likely who absolutely stay inside their house for 2 weeks and then drive up, and are vigilant with the safety protocols. I’ll let you decide what group you fall into.


----------



## Andrew B. (Dec 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> From what I’ve seen and what I generally predict, there are 3 “types” of skiers regarding traveling. The first group is the group that just goes about their daily lives somewhat recklessly and then goes skiing and is not too diligent about the masks and all and may be asked several times to pull the mask up. The second group is the people who are not necessarily quarantining, but are mostly staying home, only going out to get food, prescriptions, etc. When these people go skiing they are cautious and adhere to the safety protocols. The third group is the smallest amount of people most likely who absolutely stay inside their house for 2 weeks and then drive up, and are vigilant with the safety protocols. I’ll let you decide what group you fall into.


So two of the three are behaving as science dictates. Science (Nor COVID) see state lines. The third group aren’t going to comply with science no matter what the states guidance is especially when the guidance is un-enforceable.


----------



## Andrew B. (Dec 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Not skiing related, but friends of my neighbors got a $500 fine this week for being in Massachusetts without quarantine.  They got pulled over for speeding, had out of state plates and were honest about visiting friends.  $500 ticket and told to go home.


What were the exact charges? I would like to know what statute the police officer cited.

Was it just a $500 speeding ticket?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2020)

Andrew B. said:


> What were the exact charges? I would like to know what statute the police officer cited.
> 
> Was it just a $500 speeding ticket?


Sounds like it was a $500 fine for failing to comply with the state COVID rules.


----------



## Andrew B. (Dec 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like it was a $500 fine for failing to comply with the state COVID rules.


Would be interesting to know what statue was used. I can’t find anything that says you are violating “MGL chapt xx section bb” for this scenario.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 27, 2020)

Andrew B. said:


> Would be interesting to know what statue was used. I can’t find anything that says you are violating “MGL chapt xx section bb” for this scenario.


They're coming through executive orders issued by the state's governor


----------



## Andrew B. (Dec 27, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> They're coming through executive orders issued by the state's governor


It’s EO 45 and it calls for $500/violation


----------



## drjeff (Dec 27, 2020)

A couple of Restaurants/bars and 1 grocery store by Mount Snow are closing for a week or so "out of an abundance of caution" due to Covid concerns.

In her weekly email update that the local state rep puts out, that hit those who subscribe to it's email inboxes today, the state rep explicitly stated to not presume that the uptick is fully attributed to folks coming in from out of the area, and that locals, not always abiding by mask wearing and social distancing protocols, have also played a role in the uptick. 

The bars/Restaurants that are temporarily closed tend to be local hangouts. Rumors are that some of the Carinthia parks staff have tested positive after an afterwork gathering or 2.

Who knows what the exact origin is. For perspective over the last week, the daily reported new cases for Windham County, VT, where Mount Snow is and also includes Brattleboro, went from roughly 5 new per day up to 14 new just before Christmas, and as of today's report, back down to 8 new cases. Gives some perspective as to what a potential "spike" is around SW VT


----------



## skiur (Dec 28, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> They're coming through executive orders issued by the state's governor



Exactly, none of these executive orders for covid violations has been challenged in court yet.  Just because it happened (according to third hand knowledge) does not mean that the summons is legal.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

Andrew B. said:


> Would be interesting to know what statue was used. I can’t find anything that says you are violating “MGL chapt xx section bb” for this scenario.



The travel order. 









						What to Know: More States Added to Mass. Travel Order Before Thanksgiving
					

Effective Saturday, Massachusetts is requiring that people arriving in the state from New York and Washington State, as well as the nation’s capitol, stay in quarantine. Under Massachusetts’ travel order, these areas join all but four states across the nation considered to be a higher risk for...




					www.nbcboston.com


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2020)

So looks like I could ski in Mass being from 1 of the 4 low risk states - NH


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

Sugarbush now offering private, socially distanced base lodges
					

The Sugarbush Resort is using in-house resources and local artisans to offer a new space for guests.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## cdskier (Dec 28, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Sugarbush now offering private, socially distanced base lodges
> 
> 
> The Sugarbush Resort is using in-house resources and local artisans to offer a new space for guests.
> ...


All for the low, low price of only $400/day mid-week and $550/day weekends/holidays!


----------



## urungus (Dec 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> So looks like I could ski in Mass being from 1 of the 4 low risk states - NH



No, that article is out of date.   Currently Hawaii is the only state in the “low risk” category, meaning no quarantine required when entering Massachusetts.  People from all other states must quarantine,  https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-travel-order


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## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2020)

urungus said:


> No, that article is out of date.   Currently Hawaii is the only state in the “low risk” category, meaning no quarantine required when entering Massachusetts.  People from all other states must quarantine,  https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-travel-order


Article was from November


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Article was from November


That article was Nov 14.  Baker added all the other states to the list around Thanksgiving.
 Now every state except Hawaii, and that will prob be added soon


----------



## dblskifanatic (Dec 29, 2020)

urungus said:


> No, that article is out of date.   Currently Hawaii is the only state in the “low risk” category, meaning no quarantine required when entering Massachusetts.  People from all other states must quarantine,  https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-travel-order



We moved from Colorado to MA - it is nearly impossible to quarantine while moving!  We had no food, you need to setup our house, we had to get our dogs out, you need to setup services, get equipment from my employer to work from home and the list goes on.  So we did the best we can!  No one ever even questioned us driving around with Colorado plates.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> We moved from Colorado to MA - it is nearly impossible to quarantine while moving!  We had no food, you need to setup our house, we had to get our dogs out, you need to setup services, get equipment from my employer to work from home and the list goes on.  So we did the best we can!  No one ever even questioned us driving around with Colorado plates.


Welcome back

Hope you make the best of it.


----------



## jimk (Dec 30, 2020)

Another article about skiing during the pandemic: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/skiing-during-covid-19-vermont-us/index.html
It's mostly a collection of anecdotes about skiing different places in the Northeast in early winter 20/21.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We moved from Colorado to MA



You were there about 3 years or so, right; curious why you moved back?


----------



## 1dog (Jan 5, 2021)

jimk said:


> Another article about skiing during the pandemic: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/skiing-during-covid-19-vermont-us/index.html
> It's mostly a collection of anecdotes about skiing different places in the Northeast in early winter 20/21.











						Officials say resorts aren’t responsible for rising Covid-19 cases in ski towns
					

A number of businesses in Dover, home of Mount Snow, have temporarily shut down after 18 residents tested positive.



					vtdigger.org
				




At a 99.97% recovery rate and 30 TOTAL case count since March '20 - it's pretty hard to understand the logic behind shutting everything down.


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2021)

1dog said:


> Officials say resorts aren’t responsible for rising Covid-19 cases in ski towns
> 
> 
> A number of businesses in Dover, home of Mount Snow, have temporarily shut down after 18 residents tested positive.
> ...


Where is shutting what down?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Where is shutting what down?


Multiple restaurants in the Mount Snow area have made the decision to temporarily shut down during the last week, until all staff can be tested and the owners feel its safe for them and their staff to return to work. This is something that the owners themselves, not the State of VT, are currently choosing to do


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2021)

So several restaurants shut themselves down. Not even "every" one. Never mind "everything". So much hyperbole.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> So several restaurants shut themselves down. Not even "every" one. Never mind "everything". So much hyperbole.Correct





abc said:


> So several restaurants shut themselves down. Not even "every" one. Never mind "everything". So much hyperbole.


Correct.

4 or 5 restaurants and 1 grocery store either out of the having an employee test positive or feeling that the risk was too great right now even though no employees had tested positive, made the voluntary choice to shut down for a period of time, or switch in some cases from in person dining to take out only.

Most of the business, of any and all types,  are open and operating under the state guidelines as "usual" right now


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> So several restaurants shut themselves down. Not even "every" one. Never mind "everything". So much hyperbole.


The top 4 resteraunts in Bethel, Maine are shut down.  Many small businesses don't think it's worth it to put up with all the COVID restrictions and regulations from the state.  It's happening in many restrictive states.  Meanwhile the big stores and chains thrive.


----------



## machski (Jan 5, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> The top 4 resteraunts in Bethel, Maine are shut down.  Many small businesses don't think it's worth it to put up with all the COVID restrictions and regulations from the state.  It's happening in many restrictive states.  Meanwhile the big stores and chains thrive.


22 Broad and Sunday River Brew Pub do not count (owners decided to retire and owners fought the state and lost).


----------



## 1dog (Jan 6, 2021)

abc said:


> So several restaurants shut themselves down. Not even "every" one. Never mind "everything". So much hyperbole.


50%, 150% etc. 'increases in cases' that's part of the point,  hyperbole, along with VT having the most restrictive policies regarding the customers from out of state.

I guess everything is too strong a word - this isn't CA - yet.


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2021)

1dog said:


> 50%, 150% etc. 'increases in cases' that's part of the point,  hyperbole, along with VT having the most restrictive policies regarding the customers from out of state.


If you're against hyperbole, why do it yourself? In the same sentence?


----------



## JimG. (Jan 6, 2021)

machski said:


> 22 Broad and Sunday River Brew Pub do not count (owners decided to retire and owners fought the state and lost).


"I fought the law and the law won"


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 6, 2021)

Based on some of the posts on this forum, I am not sure people are following quarantine rules in Vermont.  Which I suspected would be the case.  One example is the case where a NY state person is asking about skiing in VT,

Are the ski areas managing this?


----------



## cdskier (Jan 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Based on some of the posts on this forum, I am not sure people are following quarantine rules in Vermont.  Which I suspected would be the case.  One example is the case where a NY state person is asking about skiing in VT,
> 
> Are the ski areas managing this?



Just because a NY state person is asking about skiing in VT doesn't mean they're not following (or planning to follow) the quarantine rules. Now if someone says they plan to ski Hunter one day and Mt Snow the next, then you know that person isn't following the rules.

Not sure what you mean by "are the ski areas managing this" though. The resorts are supposed to require you to attest that you're following the rules (although for the most part they have no idea whether you're telling the truth...). Mike Solimano from K in an interview/news article did state they would suspend/revoke skiing privileges for people not following the rules if they found out about any blatant cases.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 6, 2021)

So how does that work?  If a person from MA goes to another state for the weekend, then technically they are required to quarantine, right?  How many people are going out of state and returning and it is business as usual.

Personally - I do not care!


----------



## cdskier (Jan 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So how does that work?  If a person from MA goes to another state for the weekend, then technically they are required to quarantine, right?  How many people are going out of state and returning and it is business as usual.
> 
> Personally - I do not care!


I honestly don't follow MA's rules...so I couldn't tell you what they require.

I know VT's rules...which are that if you leave the state of VT (or go to VT from another state), you are required to quarantine for 14 days (the quarantine can be done in your home state before going to VT if you're driving to VT in a personal vehicle). You can also shorten the quarantine requirement to 7 days if you get a test.

And yes, I agree with you that I'm sure there are many people not following the rules. But also don't assume that just because someone is from another state that they're not following them. Some are, some aren't.


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So how does that work?  If a person from MA goes to another state for the weekend, then technically they are required to quarantine, right?  How many people are going out of state and returning and it is business as usual.
> 
> Personally - I do not care!


Seeing all the MA plates at Crotched, a day trip area, not many are following the MA rules. Lot is constantly full and most plates are red. Maybe a handful get tested upon re-entering MA, but nobody I know does.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Seeing all the MA plates at Crotched, a day trip area, not many are following the MA rules. Lot is constantly full and most plates are red. Maybe a handful get tested upon re-entering MA, but nobody I know does.


Same at pats peak where more than half the cars are from MA. Sprinkle in a few from NY I saw the other day plus saw a DC plate as well


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Based on some of the posts on this forum, I am not sure people are following quarantine rules in Vermont.  Which I suspected would be the case.  One example is the case where a NY state person is asking about skiing in VT,
> 
> Are the ski areas managing this?


Not much the ski areas can do aside from having you sign a meaningless statement saying you're following the rules.  I've read/seen online that some lodging establishments are restrictive on who they'll rent to but theres also ways around that.  At the end of the day none of it is enforceable on a large scale


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> And yes, I agree with you that I'm sure there are many people not following the rules. But also don't assume that just because someone is from another state that they're not following them. Some are, some aren't.



I agree with that as well!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Based on some of the posts on this forum, I am not sure people are following quarantine rules in Vermont.  Which I suspected would be the case.  One example is the case where a NY state person is asking about skiing in VT,
> 
> Are the ski areas managing this?



Nobody is following it.  My wife had 2 students go to Vermont last weekend, which, I imagine they only told her because they know she's a Vermonter.  Honestly, the horse is so far out of the barn at this point anyway, I consider state-level quarantines essentially meaningless at this point from the standpoint of effectiveness.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 6, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nobody is following it.  My wife had 2 students go to Vermont last weekend, which, I imagine they only told her because they know she's a Vermonter.  Honestly, the horse is so far out of the barn at this point anyway, I consider state-level quarantines essentially meaningless at this point from the standpoint of effectiveness.



I think a majority of the people have covid fatigue and are going about things as close to normal as they were pre-covid and are ignoring all these rules that are hard enough to follow.  I know we have lived our lives close to normal this whole time since March!  I would go crazy living in fear.  I have a brother-in-law that has not stepped out of his home but for a few necessary times since March - he is truly afraid.  At this stage, he is starting to go bonkers.  

When orders were to stay at home my wife and I stayed outside!

We went to a restaurant last week, sat down, took off our face masks and the waitress said we had to keep face masks on until we have a beverage or food in front of us - so I asked for water.  Like the 5 minutes in a restaurant prior to getting food is going to make a difference.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

Greene County(Hunter and Windham) has taken a turn for the worse..









						Greene tops Capital Region COVID charts
					

With nine COVID-19 deaths reported in the last week and an 11.8% positivity rate, Greene County has the highest infection rate in the Capital Region and Columbia County has one




					www.hudsonvalley360.com


----------



## abc (Jan 7, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I think a majority of the people have covid fatigue and are going about things as close to normal as they were pre-covid and are ignoring all these rules that are hard enough to follow.  I know we have lived our lives close to normal this whole time since March!  I would go crazy living in fear.  I have a brother-in-law that has not stepped out of his home but for a few necessary times since March - he is truly afraid.  At this stage, he is starting to go bonkers.
> 
> When orders were to stay at home my wife and I stayed outside!
> 
> We went to a restaurant last week, sat down, took off our face masks and the waitress said we had to keep face masks on until we have a beverage or food in front of us - so I asked for water.  Like the 5 minutes in a restaurant prior to getting food is going to make a difference.


Just because you don't follow the rules doesn't mean others don't. That's pretty arrogant statement by the way. 

And your point of "ignoring all these rules that are hard enough to follow", that's very much the issue, both pro and con. As long as a decent portion of people are following SOME of the rules, it helps! Yes, it's hard to enforce to make it 100%. And strict enforcement itself may do more harm than good. Though there should be SOME enforcement against the most blatant violators. Otherwise, it becomes a total waste of paper!

Personally, I feel rules should be reasonable and its purpose clearly communicated. Then more people will follow. That would benefit everyone. Unfortunately, that's not what the governments are doing. They make unreasonable rule that they don't bother to enforce even .1% of the time.


----------



## Tdizzle (Jan 7, 2021)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Greene County(Hunter and Windham) has taken a turn for the worse..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Supposedly, Greene is really high because of the outbreak in the prison. Still, workers come and go. It's a little freaky.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

Tdizzle said:


> Supposedly, Greene is really high because of the outbreak in the prison. Still, workers come and go. It's a little freaky.



Still way higher than last spring even without the prison.   I'm terrified to even go down near the prison to shop etc...   I used to think I was safe on the mountaintop here - but that's not true anymore - the bubble is broken.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 7, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> ................I know we have lived our lives close to normal this whole time since March!  I would go crazy living in fear.  I have a brother-in-law that has not stepped out of his home but for a few necessary times since March - he is truly afraid.............


I think most people are somewhere in the middle.   You don't have to be 'living in fear' to order takeout to eat at home  instead of eating and drinking in a bar or restaurant.   You don't have to be living in fear to only do essential travel.  Same with opting to work from home and not sit all day in an office with other people.  

4k people died yesterday from covid.    And don't look now but it looks like case numbers are heading back up after peaking post thanksgiving.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Just because you don't follow the rules doesn't mean others don't. That's pretty arrogant statement by the way.
> 
> And your point of "ignoring all these rules that are hard enough to follow", that's very much the issue, both pro and con. As long as a decent portion of people are following SOME of the rules, it helps! Yes, it's hard to enforce to make it 100%. And strict enforcement itself may do more harm than good. Though there should be SOME enforcement against the most blatant violators. Otherwise, it becomes a total waste of paper!
> 
> Personally, I feel rules should be reasonable and its purpose clearly communicated. Then more people will follow. That would benefit everyone. Unfortunately, that's not what the governments are doing. They make unreasonable rule that they don't bother to enforce even .1% of the time.


or comply with themselves. Leading ( from behind)  by example.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Just because you don't follow the rules doesn't mean others don't. That's pretty arrogant statement by the way.
> 
> And your point of "ignoring all these rules that are hard enough to follow", that's very much the issue, both pro and con. As long as a decent portion of people are following SOME of the rules, it helps! Yes, it's hard to enforce to make it 100%. And strict enforcement itself may do more harm than good. Though there should be SOME enforcement against the most blatant violators. Otherwise, it becomes a total waste of paper!
> 
> Personally, I feel rules should be reasonable and its purpose clearly communicated. Then more people will follow. That would benefit everyone. Unfortunately, that's not what the governments are doing. They make unreasonable rule that they don't bother to enforce even .1% of the time.



The reality right now, unlike last Spring, is COVID is basically everywhere geographically.

Taking a uniform approach for all, instead of different approaches based on imaginary lines drawn on a map, would have likely simplified things, and potentially increased compliance as of late (probably far too late now to make a change like that with any meaningful result.

The next big challenge will be how to handle the ever increasing number of people who now have antibodies to COVID via either having had it and recovered or via immunization, whereas that group of people ISN'T going to be a risk at spreading or contracting the disease?  At what percentage of the population with antibodies do we really start rolling back the restrictions as well as how much personal risk, especially amongst the say sub 40 and healthy crowd? Since the reality is that for a very long time, even eventually in small numbers, there will always be deaths from COVID, as well as slight mutations to the virus as well, which is something that we've already seen multiple times already (The European variant, the Chinese variant, this new quicker spreading apparently variant, and even another new variant with a South African origin that I just read about this morning - none of which appear to be more lethal than others)?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2021)

i just got an email advertising $98 direct flights to vail and aspen airports in feb and march of this year. this felt the apropos place to share that tidbit.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 7, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just got an email advertising $98 direct flights to vail and aspen airports in feb and march of this year. this felt the apropos place to share that tidbit.



round trip or one way?  My wife is booking us flights that are 99 each way per person to Denver from/to Boston so about $429 after other fees and taxes.

@abc I am not being arrogant.  We follow the rules, with masks and social distancing, washing hands & face, etc.,  I am going to live my life!  We do not go mingle with strangers, We do not do large social gatherings etc.  Heck we didn't even meet with relatives over Thanksgiving and Christmas - I bet others did here.  We will go out to eat - it is allowed, we will do outdoor activities - it is allowed, we will travel and when we return we will quarantine since we both work from home, we will trsvel to NH since it is allowed.  That is not being arrogant!  That is living within the parameters that have been set.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 7, 2021)

round trips. pretty crazy. i'm firmly in the camp of will not travel further than i can drive myself during a pandemic, but have at it. its a scott's cheap flights e-mail. i used to subscribe but don't anymore. a friend who still subscribes fwd this earlier.


----------



## abc (Jan 7, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm firmly in the camp of will not travel further than i can drive myself during a pandemic, but have at it.


Some people have a whale of a good time going BC on Avi level 4 days and live to talk about it! Others only go out on level 2 days and missing out a lot of powder. Still more never leave resort and only ski leftovers.

Risk tolerant level is highly individual.

I'm a happy chicken,. I figure if I'm safe and live a long and healthy life, there will be many, many powder days at no more than level 2.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Since the reality is that for a very long time, even eventually in small numbers, there will always be deaths from COVID, as well as slight mutations to the virus as well, which is something that we've already seen multiple times already (The European variant, the Chinese variant, this new quicker spreading apparently variant, and even another new variant with a South African origin that I just read about this morning - none of which appear to be more lethal than others)?



The UK & South African mutations have already been proven to respond positively to vaccine (as should be mathematically expected).   The US media, as always, is trying to scare the **** out of people for $$$$.


----------



## gittist (Jan 8, 2021)

Heads up for those in Pennsylvania or going through:

Pennsylvania State Police will distribute flyers to motorists and may issue citations, fines for COVID-19 violations​








						Pennsylvania State Police will distribute flyers to motorists and may issue citations, fines for COVID-19 violations
					

Pennsylvania State Police announced Wednesday that troopers and motor carrier enforcement officers will now distribute flyers containing COVID-19 mitigation information, and violators could be issued citations “on a case-by-case basis.”




					www.mcall.com
				




I don't care what the law says, they'll do it anyway and you'll lose. Even if you fight and win the victory won't be worth it.


----------



## Pez (Jan 9, 2021)

Wear your mask (properly), washy washy, and drive the speed limit.

it's not that hard.


----------



## Zermatt (Jan 9, 2021)

Pez said:


> Wear your mask (properly), washy washy, and drive the speed limit.
> 
> it's not that hard.


You can skip the obsessive hand washing too, btw. It's good for many other illnesses but has little effect on an a respiratory virus. Unless you are swabbing your lungs with your dirty fingers.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 9, 2021)

billo said:


> You can skip the obsessive hand washing too, btw. It's good for many other illnesses but has little effect on an a respiratory virus. Unless you are swabbing your lungs with your dirty fingers.



The folks still wearing latex gloves out in public at say the grocery store are frankly just wasting gloves....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

Skiing in the pandemic causes concerns for businesses in southern Vermont
					

Some southern Vermont businesses have closed or switched to curbside pickup. They are worried out of staters going skiing will bring coronavirus to their community. Olivia Lyons has more.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

billo said:


> You can skip the obsessive hand washing too, btw. It's good for many other illnesses but has little effect on an a respiratory virus.



They've known this for months.  It's odd behaviour.  It makes you wonder if people do all this for psychological control issues, or if they genuinely still dont know.  Clorox wipes, for instance, still sell out everywhere.  And some stores, like TJ Maxx, wipes the counter after each customer pays.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

gittist said:


> Heads up for those in Pennsylvania or going through:
> 
> Pennsylvania State Police will distribute flyers to motorists and may issue citations, fines for COVID-19 violations​



This is especially annoying for those of us who live a pitching wedge from PA.  Not to mention, eastern PA has become a boom town from all the NJ residents fleeing Jersey's high taxes, and there are now THOUSANDS of PA residents who work in Jersey.  Oh, but they made an "exception" for them, because the coronavirus is respectful of worker's commuting geography...... or something.


----------



## machski (Jan 10, 2021)

I'm guessing its Covid related, but Loon shut all lodges to dining this weekend and it is continuing into the week.  They have some newly errected heavy duty tent structures at Camp III and Pemi Base Camp that are open air and they are using those spaces for dining exclusively right now.  Fun times...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2021)

Not East, but on point:









						Utah ski resort demands combative guests respect staff
					

Guests who don't adhere to COVID-19 protocols at one Utah ski resort have apparently become combative with the staff, forcing the resort to offer a stern warning.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## Edd (Jan 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Not East, but on point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just like the Idaho story. You could just be polite, follow the rules and have fun riding but nope, you’ve got opinions, and ski area employees need to hear them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2021)

Edd said:


> Just like the Idaho story. You could just be polite, follow the rules and have fun riding but nope, you’ve got opinions, and ski area employees need to hear them.


I’d say Northern Idaho is WAY more conservative and anti-mask.  There is a backstory behind Solitude.  Go to their FB page and you’ll see mention from skiers about staffers being rude.  That said, people should be respectful.  I’d hate to work at Solitude due to the crowds and problems.  IKON’t understand what changed....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

I doubt it has anything to do with conservative, moderate, or liberal, but simply the fact pretty much everyone of all stripes is "coronavirus fatigued" at this point, and  some percentage of people simply cant handle that fatigue very well.

I live in one of the most liberal states in America & my church sent out an email that sounded almost exactly like that Solitude email.  Parishioners getting fresh with church staff trying to enforce COVID19 regulations.  Same thing, different environment, different state.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt it has anything to do with conservative, moderate, or liberal, but simply the fact pretty much everyone of all stripes is "coronavirus fatigued" at this point, and  some percentage of people simply cant handle that fatigue very well.
> 
> I live in one of the most liberal states in America & my church sent out an email that sounded almost exactly like that Solitude email.  Parishioners getting fresh with church staff trying to enforce COVID19 regulations.  Same thing, different environment, different state.



As we close in on a year of restrictions on our "normal" lives as they used to be, I doubt that anyone who hasn't already gone absolutely crazy out of anxiety and fear and social isolation, questions some attempts, to go against what our elected officials say to do, just to try and get some social interaction in a person to person form rather than a person to computer screen form.

I sincerely hope that the youth of today, who so desperately NEED socialization as part of their normal psychological development, aren't irreparably harmed by this. Heck, you have some younger kids especially, thinking that just breathing air may cause you to get very sick or kill you because of how some parents choose to phrase things to their kids. That instilled fear, isn't likely something some will easily let go of moving forward


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 11, 2021)

I feel bad for college and high school age children as socialization is an important part of their life during that age range.  As a parent of a College sophomore  I can tell you he's been safe, but he's also not sitting in his apartment doing nothing.  he's been potentially exposed to COVID, but tests have been negative thankfully.  He's getting ready to drive back to Florida on Wednesday, and he got himself a COVID test without any direction by me since he'll be stopping at my sisters which is half way.  I hope he continues to balance safety and socialization.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt it has anything to do with conservative, moderate, or liberal, but simply the fact pretty much everyone of all stripes is "coronavirus fatigued" at this point, and  some percentage of people simply cant handle that fatigue very well.
> 
> I live in one of the most liberal states in America & my church sent out an email that sounded almost exactly like that Solitude email.  Parishioners getting fresh with church staff trying to enforce COVID19 regulations.  Same thing, different environment, different state.



if i'm trying to make the point that covid fatigue is apolitical, i surely wouldn't cite a church.

get a grip. the people lashing out at others over mask compliance requests are conservatives/anti-maskers. utah, idaho, just about any white church.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt it has anything to do with conservative, moderate, or liberal, but simply the fact pretty much everyone of all stripes is "coronavirus fatigued" at this point, and  some percentage of people simply cant handle that fatigue very well.
> 
> I live in one of the most liberal states in America & my church sent out an email that sounded almost exactly like that Solitude email.  Parishioners getting fresh with church staff trying to enforce COVID19 regulations.  Same thing, different environment, different state.


FYI Couer d'Alene (just south of Schweitzer) had armed militias going around harassing business owners over mask mandates.  That was what I was getting at.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if i'm trying to make the point that covid fatigue is apolitical, i surely wouldn't cite a church.
> 
> get a grip. the people lashing out at others over mask compliance requests are conservatives/anti-maskers. utah, idaho, just about any white church.


I doubt the majority of young people ignoring public health recommendations since March are conservative, that generation doesnt tend to lean right. There are also literally tons of examples of people that lean left not following the rules they impose on all of us since the beginning 

Let's not cherry pick, both sides have people that weren't/arent following the guidelines since the beginning.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 11, 2021)

Someone, not clear who, got ‘redlined’ at SB yesterday. Had to sign yet a 3rd attestation form to ski.
Think the code reads last time skied.

As for the church/conservative/anti-mask comments, my church is full of sinners, I'm a poster boy for that moniker - I don't know who said this, but its a good place to type it out: 'In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.'


----------



## NYDB (Jan 11, 2021)

1dog said:


> Someone, not clear who, got ‘redlined’ at SB yesterday. Had to sign yet a 3rd attestation form to ski.
> Think the code reads last time skied.
> 
> As for the church/conservative/anti-mask comments, my church is full of sinners, I'm a poster boy for that moniker - I don't know who said this, but its a good place to type it out: 'In life, it's important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.'


If you skied last weekend, and then this weekend...how do they know you weren't in VT the entire time in between?


----------



## JimG. (Jan 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As we close in on a year of restrictions on our "normal" lives as they used to be, I doubt that anyone who hasn't already gone absolutely crazy out of anxiety and fear and social isolation, questions some attempts, to go against what our elected officials say to do, just to try and get some social interaction in a person to person form rather than a person to computer screen form.
> 
> I sincerely hope that the youth of today, who so desperately NEED socialization as part of their normal psychological development, aren't irreparably harmed by this. Heck, you have some younger kids especially, thinking that just breathing air may cause you to get very sick or kill you because of how some parents choose to phrase things to their kids. That instilled fear, isn't likely something some will easily let go of moving forward


What he said. 

The fear mongering is reprehensible.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 11, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> If you skied last weekend, and then this weekend...how do they know you weren't in VT the entire time in between?


I'm curious about this too...


----------



## drjeff (Jan 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm curious about this too...


Basically they don't. Unless of course they want to take the time, effort, and funds to do things like trace your cellphone location or credit card usage during the week.

Could they do that? Sure

Will they do that? Very doubtful, unless potentially one does something else that is agregious enough to draw some serious attention from the authorities....


----------



## cdskier (Jan 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Basically they don't. Unless of course they want to take the time, effort, and funds to do things like trace your cellphone location or credit card usage during the week.
> 
> Could they do that? Sure
> 
> Will they do that? Very doubtful, unless potentially one does something else that is agregious enough to draw some serious attention from the authorities....


I think what both myself and NY Dirtbag are looking for is more details on what 1dog said happened with someone being "redlined" and why that person was flagged. I agree with you that I would think they don't simply flag people for skiing only weekends even if they have a home address out of state. That simple act isn't worthy of being flagged (case in point would be myself who even though I'm now at my condo in VT full-time, I still will mainly only ski weekends and still have a "home address" of NJ).


----------



## drjeff (Jan 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think what both myself and NY Dirtbag are looking for is more details on what 1dog said happened with someone being "redlined" and why that person was flagged. I agree with you that I would think they don't simply flag people for skiing only weekends even if they have a home address out of state. That simple act isn't worthy of being flagged (case in point would be myself who even though I'm now at my condo in VT full-time, I still will mainly only ski weekends and still have a "home address" of NJ).


I wonder if that person had used their IKON in say NH or ME in the previous VT quarantine period since they had probably last used it at a VT IKON resort?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if that person had used their IKON in say NH or ME in the previous VT quarantine period since they had probably last used it at a VT IKON resort?


Did the person not sign the affidavit for the pass?  Maybe that was the issue.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Did the person not sign the affidavit for the pass?  Maybe that was the issue.


The post from 1dog claimed this was now the 3rd time this person had to sign the attestation...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 11, 2021)

a buddy skied windham one day and stratton the next and nothing happened at either mountain or by email


----------



## JimG. (Jan 11, 2021)

He may 


KustyTheKlown said:


> a buddy skied windham one day and stratton the next and nothing happened at either mountain or by email


He may have gotten lucky. This would be a surefire way to track someone and prove they violated restrictions.

IF VT wanted to.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 11, 2021)

It would not be hard to track where a person's skied if it's all on the Ikon or Epic database.  However, I HIGHLY doubt a mountain would actually go through the trouble of not letting a person ski because of where the pass has been used.  The mountain wants you to sign the paper so they're not liable for some idiot's choices, then hope they buy beer and a burger for lunch.  

If this WAS happening I'm sure we'd of heard about it by now.  I have not heard of such a thing on here.  Maybe if someone's on the many many skiing Reddit forums they could find an incident as that's a much larger sample size than this forum.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The post from 1dog claimed this was now the 3rd time this person had to sign the attestation...


they skied no other area since previous weekend. MA residence, but owns a house in VT. Signed form 3X - once online, once at the ticket office and again last Sat. Skied Sunday with no issue. Its just strange, and the ticket attendant could not ( or would not) verify why the pass holder was 'redlined'. As some suggest, they could track a lot of things, but why, unless incredible outbreak or some other nefarious reason. At least at Sugarbush, they have a pass through scanner at bottom of entrance, so if your pass is inactive, you don't go all the way to lifts THEN have to backtrack down to ticket office. This fellow didn't go thru since he went thru the 1st time he skied back in early Dec. He has 6 or 7 days in at Bush.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think what both myself and NY Dirtbag are looking for is more details on what 1dog said happened with someone being "redlined" and why that person was flagged. I agree with you that I would think they don't simply flag people for skiing only weekends even if they have a home address out of state. That simple act isn't worthy of being flagged (case in point would be myself who even though I'm now at my condo in VT full-time, I still will mainly only ski weekends and still have a "home address" of NJ).


Right.  So even though I am probably not using my IKON this winter, I did sign the generic attestation for IKON in VT saying you comply with regulations in case I end up using the pass this winter.  That form didn't ask how you were complying with VT's restrictions - only that you were. 

Just for example - Magic's attestation was more specific.  They asked whether you were a VT resident,  in VT at your second home for the duration of winter, or an out of state visitor complying with VT's quarantine restrictions.    That seems like an easier task to flag people who aren't complying if you were trying to identify covid scofflaws (not that I think Magic is going to). 

Just wondering why someone has to sign the attestation 3x.  I mean, why have them sign again if you know they aren't complying?  Because its all bullshit would be the answer I guess.  Or maybe they are accumulating evidence against the party (doubt it)


----------



## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Right.  So even though I am probably not using my IKON this winter, I did sign the generic attestation for IKON in VT saying you comply with regulations in case I end up using the pass this winter.  That form didn't ask how you were complying with VT's restrictions - only that you were.
> 
> Just for example - Magic's attestation was more specific.  They asked whether you were a VT resident,  in VT at your second home for the duration of winter, or an out of state visitor complying with VT's quarantine restrictions.    That seems like an easier task to flag people who aren't complying if you were trying to identify covid scofflaws (not that I think Magic is going to).
> 
> Just wondering why someone has to sign the attestation 3x.  I mean, why have them sign again if you know they aren't complying?  Because its all bullshit would be the answer I guess.  Or maybe they are accumulating evidence against the party (doubt it)



Sounds like Magic's attestation is very similar to MRG's as well. They had those different potential scenarios listed and you chose which one you were doing.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 12, 2021)

1dog said:


> they skied no other area since previous weekend. MA residence, but owns a house in VT. Signed form 3X - once online, once at the ticket office and again last Sat. Skied Sunday with no issue. Its just strange, and the ticket attendant could not ( or would not) verify why the pass holder was 'redlined'. As some suggest, they could track a lot of things, but why, unless incredible outbreak or some other nefarious reason. At least at Sugarbush, they have a pass through scanner at bottom of entrance, so if your pass is inactive, you don't go all the way to lifts THEN have to backtrack down to ticket office. This fellow didn't go thru since he went thru the 1st time he skied back in early Dec. He has 6 or 7 days in at Bush.



Sounds more like an IT thing with the form not connecting to the dude's pass rather than the Quarantine Police tracking him.


----------



## Edd (Jan 12, 2021)

I haven’t skied VT this season. If I did a quick day trip to Okemo or Mt Snow would I need to sign anything? I understand it would be breaking the VT rules.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 12, 2021)

Edd said:


> I haven’t skied VT this season. If I did a quick day trip to Okemo or Mt Snow would I need to sign anything? I understand it would be breaking the VT rules.



Actually sign something? No

Check the box at the end of making your reservation process that you understand the COVID protocols and specific state travel guidelines? yes

There is no document that you have to sign on property, the day that you are skiing/riding


----------



## SLyardsale (Jan 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Actually sign something? No
> 
> Check the box at the end of making your reservation process that you understand the COVID protocols and specific state travel guidelines? yes
> 
> There is no document that you have to sign on property, the day that you are skiing/riding


Correct, with Epic, you attest EVERYTIME you make a reservation.  If you drill down on that box you check, it is all there.  I've attested over 30x now.


----------



## zoomzoom (Jan 12, 2021)

" The next big challenge will be how to handle the ever increasing number of people who now have antibodies to COVID via either having had it and recovered or via immunization, whereas that group of people ISN'T going to be a risk at spreading or contracting the disease? "



i don't understand this, am reading this wrong i think.  once vaccinated, you can't spread covid?


----------



## abc (Jan 12, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> i don't understand this, am reading this wrong i think.  once vaccinated, you can't spread covid?


Because that's unproven. So it's possible they CAN spread it. 

Hence the danger.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 13, 2021)

abc said:


> Because that's unproven. So it's possible they CAN spread it.
> 
> Hence the danger.



The likelihood of spreading post-vaccine is probably going to be similar to the people who get Covid twice....it's a 1-in-100,000-1,000,000 people scenario.  Doesn't mean the media won't scare you with it.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 13, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> " The next big challenge will be how to handle the ever increasing number of people who now have antibodies to COVID via either having had it and recovered or via immunization, whereas that group of people ISN'T going to be a risk at spreading or contracting the disease? "
> 
> 
> 
> i don't understand this, am reading this wrong i think.  once vaccinated, you can't spread covid?



There is still a touch of the unknown (need some time to see as well as more numbers of people with the vaccine) if the vaccine only prevents the symptoms that Covid can produce in some, from happening, or if it both prevents the symptoms from happening but potentially allows those vaccinated to still spread potentially COVID to those who haven't been vaccinated or have previously had and recovered from COVID and have naturally formed antibodies.

All indications that I have read, seem to strongly feel that once vaccinated, and as a result form antibodies to COVID, that you will not be able to potentially spread COVID,  just the same as someone who naturally acquired the antibodies via the disease itself.


----------



## Zermatt (Jan 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There is still a touch of the unknown (need some time to see as well as more numbers of people with the vaccine) if the vaccine only prevents the symptoms that Covid can produce in some, from happening, or if it both prevents the symptoms from happening but potentially allows those vaccinated to still spread potentially COVID to those who haven't been vaccinated or have previously had and recovered from COVID and have naturally formed antibodies.
> 
> All indications that I have read, seem to strongly feel that once vaccinated, and as a result form antibodies to COVID, that you will not be able to potentially spread COVID,  just the same as someone who naturally acquired the antibodies via the disease itself.


Right, so it would be different from every other vaccine in history....because covid.

Moderna has specifically said their vaccine prevents you from carrying/spreading the virus (just like every other vaccine). Pfizer has not said because they haven't studied it properly because there were other more important things to look at.  And yes, if it is only 95% effective then 5% of people still get covid symptoms and could spread it, but 95% effectiveness is pretty damn good.


----------



## abc (Jan 13, 2021)

billo said:


> so it would be *different*  from every other vaccine in history....because covid.


Most other disease also don’t usually spread BEFORE the patient start showing symptoms.

Yes, covid has surprised virologists in so many ways. They learn not to make too much prediction until they have proof.

Last but not least, these mRNA vaccines ARE DIFFERENT from all past vaccines. They’re brand spanking new. Never have we had made vaccine this past before.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 13, 2021)

abc said:


> Most other disease also don’t usually spread BEFORE the patient start showing symptoms.
> 
> Yes, covid has surprised virologists in so many ways. They learn not to make too much prediction until they have proof.
> 
> Last but not least, these mRNA vaccines ARE DIFFERENT from all past vaccines. They’re brand spanking new. Never have we had made vaccine this past before.



The reality is that the technology at its core used with mRNA vaccines has been around for about 20 years. It isn't something new. The pharmaceutical industry just hasn't had the need, or the motive to incur the significant R&D costs, to develop an mRNA based vaccine prior to now.

The "it's a new technique" is more just hyperbole and scare than science based


----------



## abc (Jan 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that the technology at its core used with mRNA vaccines has been around for about 20 years. It isn't something new. The pharmaceutical industry just hasn't had the need, or the motive to incur the significant R&D costs, to develop an mRNA based vaccine prior to now.
> 
> The "it's a new technique" is more just hyperbole and scare than science based


The “technology” may not be new. The vaccine is.

A lot is unknown. But too many people are pinning miracle power to them that hasn’t been demonstrated in clinical trials. 

A lot of wishful thinking in this whole pandemic.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 13, 2021)

abc said:


> The “technology” may not be new. The vaccine is.
> 
> A lot is unknown. But too many people are pinning miracle power to them that hasn’t been demonstrated in clinical trials.
> 
> A lot of wishful thinking in this whole pandemic.


Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated 95% ish efficacy in clinical trials, are you insinuating they are lying about the data or do you have access to data that the general public and FDA don't have access to?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated 95% ish efficacy in clinical trials, are you insinuating they are lying about the data or do you have access to data that the general public and FDA don't have access to?


95% that you won't get it but as they said not that you can't spread it. well Pfizer's anyway


----------



## drjeff (Jan 13, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> 95% that you won't get it but as they said not that you can't spread it. well Pfizer's anyway




The won't spread it part is more along the lines of the reality that the folks who received the vaccine in it's trial phase, have had it in their system now more maybe 6 months. The data at roughly 6 months is looking like they can't spread it. The reality is that we won't know if the vaccine induced antibodies will last permanently for years. That's why the "we're not sure yet...." line is used in the era where any perceived potential risk is too much for many people... 

For the vast majority of our immune systems that are in normal working order, once they develop an antibody to whatever agent the body has an immune response to, our bodies in essence "store" the information about how to make that antibody again in the future should that same infective agent show up again.  Sometimes the size of the future immune response can decrease, and that's why in some cases we do need booster shots to re stimulate our immune systems to keep the antibody production potential effective.


----------



## zoomzoom (Jan 13, 2021)

i am receiving my first dose of a covid-19 vaccine tomorrow, with a secondary dose in either 21 or 28 days depending on the manufacturer.  the supply is such that the hospital can't say for sure if i'll be getting BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273.  maximum efficacy will occur 10 to 14 days after the second dose.

regarding virus transmission after being vaccinated, pfizer states this:
"Most vaccines that protect from viral illnesses also reduce transmission of the virus that causes the disease by those who are vaccinated. While it is hoped this will be the case, the scientific community does not yet know if the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine will reduce such transmission." the key word is reduce.  

regarding duration of protection, pfizer states this:
"Data are not yet available to inform about the duration of protection that the vaccine will provide."

i believe the moderna has similar statements, but can't find them.

it's clear to me that:  once vaccinated, one in twenty still can get and transmit covid, and for the other 19 folks it is hoped that transmissability will be reduced; the duration of protection after vaccination is still unknown; the CDC statement regarding handwashing after visiting a public place or sneezing/coughing seems reasonable to me.


----------



## abc (Jan 13, 2021)

billo said:


> Moderna has specifically said their vaccine prevents you from carrying/spreading the virus


Can you please point me to the source?


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 13, 2021)

A quarantine is no longer advised for travel to and from NH for those that have been vaccinated, and those who have recovered from Covid in the past 90 days. Hopefully other states get in on this common sense. 









						New Quarantine Advice for Post-infection, Vaccination in NH
					

New Hampshire residents who are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus or were previously infected no longer need to quarantine after being exposed to an infected person or after traveling, according to new guidance from the state Division of Public Health Services. Under previous guidance...




					www.nbcboston.com


----------



## machski (Jan 13, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> A quarantine is no longer advised for travel to and from NH for those that have been vaccinated, and those who have recovered from Covid in the past 90 days. Hopefully other states get in on this common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that's nice.  Too bad most who actually travel can't currently get the vaccine in NH.


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 13, 2021)

machski said:


> Well, that's nice.  Too bad most who actually travel can't currently get the vaccine in NH.


Hopefully soon, but it looks like it won't y til next season for many.


----------



## abc (Jan 13, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> A quarantine is no longer advised for travel to and from NH for those that have been vaccinated, and those who have recovered from Covid in the past 90 days. Hopefully other states get in on this common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That may encourage people to get vaccinated.


----------



## da-bum (Jan 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> The likelihood of spreading post-vaccine is probably going to be similar to the people who get Covid twice....it's a 1-in-100,000-1,000,000 people scenario.  Doesn't mean the media won't scare you with it.


That number is just made up based on people who actually reported it.  An actual study in UK indicated after 5 months, with slightly less than 1% of people who had been previously infected has caught it again after 5 months.  This doesn't mean chance of catching is less than 1%, just that less than 1% of people in the study caught it again.  The actual rate of being protected within 5 months is 83%

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/14/cov...round-as-much-immunity-as-vaccines-study.html


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 14, 2021)

Great news for Killington ppl:

""KILLINGTON TO DROP PARKING RESERVATIONS EXCEPT FOR BUSY DAYS!!!
"Starting Tuesday, January 19, we will only require parking reservations on Saturdays, Sundays and Peak Days, February 15-19."

This is great news as it removes a step that at least they now seem to see as unnecessary when they were unlikely to hit capacity.  Opening up more bases, lifts, and terrain gives Killington more wiggle room now for sure.
"


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2021)

I have a feeling you're going to be hearing about this study soon.  And that there's going to be a lot of revisionist history among politicians in the coming years.

For those who dont like reading scientific studies, across 10 different nations they found no statistically significant benefit of mandatory lockdown orders on having a beneficial COVID19 effect over that of simple voluntary measures like social distancing or reducing your travel. 

Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19​


			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a feeling you're going to be hearing about this study soon.  And that there's going to be a lot of revisionist history among politicians in the coming years.
> 
> For those who dont like reading scientific studies, across 10 different nations they found no statistically significant benefit of mandatory lockdown orders on having a beneficial COVID19 effect over that of simple voluntary measures like social distancing or reducing your travel.
> 
> ...


shhhhhhhhhhh, you aren't supposed to say the quiet part out loud


----------



## drjeff (Jan 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a feeling you're going to be hearing about this study soon.  And that there's going to be a lot of revisionist history among politicians in the coming years.
> 
> For those who dont like reading scientific studies, across 10 different nations they found no statistically significant benefit of mandatory lockdown orders on having a beneficial COVID19 effect over that of simple voluntary measures like social distancing or reducing your travel.
> 
> ...




And I wouldn't be shocked at all, in say 5 or 10 years, if studies show that the harm done from a psychological standpoint, from the lockdowns, has a far greater toll on many in society than the disease process itself, for all but those who had multiple co-morbidities before hand. 

It really is getting to the point, where if one removes the panic and hysteria that has been drummed up around most things COVID, and takes a scientific backed, critical look at things, it will show for most that social distancing, proper face/hand hygiene and mask use, and a relatively normal society for the vast majority of the population, is, and should of been the way to go.

What that brings into play, is that yes, you do need to single out certain members of society, because their risk is far greater, and trying to single out specific groups, (especially if it's not of a political ideological nature it seems  ) just isn't an acceptable thing, even if the science shows that it's the more prudent, realistic thing to do with the greatest benefit for most


----------



## gittist (Jan 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> And I wouldn't be shocked at all, in say 5 or 10 years, if studies show that the harm done from a psychological standpoint, from the lockdowns, has a far greater toll on many in society than the disease process itself, for all but those who had multiple co-morbidities before hand.
> 
> It really is getting to the point, where if one removes the panic and hysteria that has been drummed up around most things COVID, and takes a scientific backed, critical look at things, it will show for most that social distancing, proper face/hand hygiene and mask use, and a relatively normal society for the vast majority of the population, is, and should of been the way to go.
> 
> What that brings into play, is that yes, you do need to single out certain members of society, because their risk is far greater, and trying to single out specific groups, (especially if it's not of a political ideological nature it seems  ) just isn't an acceptable thing, even if the science shows that it's the more prudent, realistic thing to do with the greatest benefit for most



Dr Jeff should keep an eye for a black SUV. If he's not careful they'll sneak up behind him pull a bag over his head and take him to a re-education center where they'll drain his brain and turn him into another COVID zombie for speaking his mind.


----------



## Edd (Jan 15, 2021)

gittist said:


> Dr Jeff should keep an eye for a black SUV. If he's not careful they'll sneak up behind him pull a bag over his head and take him to a re-education center where they'll drain his brain and turn him into another COVID zombie for speaking his mind.


Is that a thing that happens?


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

What the study didn't look into, is the different social structure of the two comparison country.

Of all the country studied, South Korea is the ONLY Asia country. Even in the study, it mentioned Korea "
_relied on intensive investments in *testing, contact tracing, and isolation of infected cases and close contacts*"_, a combination none of the comparison country bother to even try. Most of the countries in comparison have limited testing, even less contact tracing, and NO enforceable isolation of infected cases.

Sweden is the only country worthy as a comparison country. But there, also to some degree Germany, the population tend to conform to the "recommended" guideline of social distancing and even in Sweden, large gathering are banned. Whilst in the "other" country, those same guideline were put out, IGNORED by majority of the population. Even in Sweden, it slowly adds more restrictive measures as case number climbs. The biggest difference being, most other countries in the study the case number climb fast due largely to the fact people totally ignore the social distancing "suggestions"!

What the study didn't bother to add to the comparison, are countries like Singapore, Taiwan etc. Where they're VERY AGGRESSIVE at the beginning in ENFORCING social distancing and isolation of infected. Basically, just like South Korea. *None of those countries gone to full lockdown either!* Majority of Asian countries didn't go to the extensive lockdown Europe and north America did. But the biggest difference is, their government were *extremely intrusive* in their enforcement of the limited social distancing measure, which most western countries either unable or unwilling to do.

Lockdown should have never been the first option. And it wasn't. The same "Korean approach" was tried in New York City, for less than a week! But due to lack of testing, no enforcement of social distancing, and non-existing contact tracing, it DIDN'T WORK!

(the same can be said about Italy too. local politicians came out suggest people go on with their social life as usual even after social distancing recommendations)

When you have population that ignores the more sensible behavior, and refuse to take personal responsibility, you end up with sky rocketing case loads. By which point, a full lockdown became the only options left!

What the study REALLY end up proving*, is lockdown isn't nearly as good as a combination of social distancing, contact tracing and isolation of infected. The latter was always the "preferred" approach. But it didn't work in most western countries used as comparison because the population wouldn't comply! So they got lockdown. They deserve it! We deserve what we got!

(*) The study didn't exactly "prove" it because it didn't bother including other Asian countries that didn't use full lockdown but *enforced* social distancing measures. Had they done that, the commonality and contrast between the two approaches would have been much clearer.


----------



## skiur (Jan 15, 2021)

gittist said:


> Dr Jeff should keep an eye for a black SUV. If he's not careful they'll sneak up behind him pull a bag over his head and take him to a re-education center where they'll drain his brain and turn him into another COVID zombie for speaking his mind.





Edd said:


> Is that a thing that happens?



Happened to my neighbor last week.


----------



## da-bum (Jan 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a feeling you're going to be hearing about this study soon.  And that there's going to be a lot of revisionist history among politicians in the coming years.
> 
> For those who dont like reading scientific studies, across 10 different nations they found no statistically significant benefit of mandatory lockdown orders on having a beneficial COVID19 effect over that of simple voluntary measures like social distancing or reducing your travel.
> 
> ...


Doesn't look like they are comparing apples to apples.......Sweden vs France?  How about Sweden vs its Nordic neighbors.  Maybe its not lockdown or not, but how hard it is enforced.  Apparently, they did not include China in the study because their lockdown was absolute and rigidly enforced, thus bringing their runaway case level down to practically zero and now life goes on there.

There are a thousand ways to play with statistics, and this is one of it.


----------



## Edd (Jan 15, 2021)

skiur said:


> Happened to my neighbor last week.


With the SUV and the bag and draining the brain? Because that’s alarming.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 15, 2021)

da-bum said:


> Apparently, they did not include China in the study because their lockdown was absolute and rigidly enforced, thus bringing their runaway case level down to practically zero and now life goes on there.


It helps to have a more successful approach when you have inside knowledge of the virus as you're willingly allowing it to spread around the globe while taking extreme precautions in your own country and lying about it to the rest of the world


----------



## drjeff (Jan 15, 2021)

gittist said:


> Dr Jeff should keep an eye for a black SUV. If he's not careful they'll sneak up behind him pull a bag over his head and take him to a re-education center where they'll drain his brain and turn him into another COVID zombie for speaking his mind.



The Black SUV people are probably disappointed that dose #1 of the vaccine that I got a bit over 2 weeks ago didn't have the full effect they wanted on me!       

I'm guessing that they'll have to bring me into the "special" vaccination room in about 2 weeks when I get dose #2!!


----------



## da-bum (Jan 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> It helps to have a more successful approach when you have inside knowledge of the virus as you're willingly allowing it to spread around the globe while taking extreme precautions in your own country and lying about it to the rest of the world


The rest of the world was watching the extreme approach that was taken place in China and took no action, except for Southeast and East Asian countries.  The US then saw what was happening in Italy and thought it woudn't happen here.  The rest of US saw what was happening in NYC and thought it wouldn't happen in their area......until it did.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

da-bum said:


> The rest of the world was watching the extreme approach that was taken place in China and took no action, except for Southeast and East Asian countries.  The US then saw what was happening in Italy and thought it woudn't happen here.  The rest of US saw what was happening in NYC and thought it wouldn't happen in their area......until it did.


Yes and no.

Most of the Asian countries didn't have a full lockdown like in China. In fact, most countries in Asia kept their schools open.

I wonder if that's where Sweden got the same idea. Sweden's population are more conforming than the rest of Europe. It's quite possible the "other Nordic countries" could have work too.

But Italy? France? Never mind in the US, when you have the highest office holder calling to "pack the churches by Easter". Did Sweden pack their churches on Easter???

From the article: "These observations are consistent with a model where the *severity of the risk perceived by individuals* was a stronger driver of anti-contagion behaviors than the specific nature of the NPIs"

Translation, those country whose population takes the virus seriously behave better. And the case number shows that.

p.s.
Now I'm beginning to think maybe the Vermonters got it right. The people there took it seriously. So they kept a low case number even when their neighbors' numbers are going up. Maybe I should move up my trip there now. Low case number, snow, skiing, what's not to like?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 15, 2021)

da-bum said:


> The rest of the world was watching the extreme approach that was taken place in China and took no action,


Largely due to being misled by China early on in the pandemic.  Perhaps if outside medical officials were allowed in early on, we might have actually seen what was going on and taken a different approach.  I'd be willing to bet, you wouldn't see people like Fauci saying it's nothing to worry about and won't be a problem for us.  And it could have lead to a much more reasonable and more effective approach than the one we took.  


da-bum said:


> The US then saw what was happening in Italy and thought it woudn't happen here.


We were already in a lockdown or stay at home order when Italy was going through the peak of their infection curve, and Italy was widely cited as a reason for the measures we took, and what happened in italy never really happened here (perhaps maybe in NYC early on, but not to the extent it happened in Italy)


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> what happened in italy never really happened here


The article suggests: "severity of the risk perceived by individuals was a stronger driver of anti-contagion behaviors". 

If you don't mind what happened, which is a smaller scale of what happened in Italy ("never *really* happened"), there's no need to do ANYTHING.


----------



## Dickc (Jan 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Is that a thing that happens?


Remember to use the sarcasm icon, you know, [/sarcasm]


----------



## 1dog (Jan 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a feeling you're going to be hearing about this study soon.  And that there's going to be a lot of revisionist history among politicians in the coming years.
> 
> For those who dont like reading scientific studies, across 10 different nations they found no statistically significant benefit of mandatory lockdown orders on having a beneficial COVID19 effect over that of simple voluntary measures like social distancing or reducing your travel.
> 
> ...


Alex Berenson, formerly of WSJ has written extensively on this very topic.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> It helps to have a more successful approach when you have inside knowledge of the virus as you're willingly allowing it to spread around the globe while taking extreme precautions in your own country and lying about it to the rest of the world


Correct - let us ban all inter-country travel from and to Wuhan, but not to other countries . .  Jan 1st or possibly Dec 2019


----------



## Zermatt (Jan 15, 2021)

1dog said:


> Correct - let us ban all inter-country travel from and to Wuhan, but not to other countries . .  Jan 1st or possibly Dec 2019


Intra-country not inter. That's literally the opposite.


----------



## da-bum (Jan 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Most of the Asian countries didn't have a full lockdown like in China. In fact, most countries in Asia kept their schools open.
> 
> ...



I didn't want to get into the details of how much action each of the Asian countries took because each one had different reactions, but the main thing is they all took serious actions before it got to the point where lockdown was thought of as the only solution.  China, and especiall Wuhan did that because the outbreak got so bad, that was the only option.  Their lockdown was literally nobody could go out.

Singapore was successful initially, except they forgot that their migrant workers were people too, which lead to an uncontrollable outbreak, thus forcing them to lock down the dorms.

As for Sweden, I think their chief epidemiologist is more of an ideologue than data scientist.  His 'guesstimate' that 30% of Swedes should have immunity, then being surprised that an subsequent antibody study shows it being much lower, then goes on that based on that study, Swedes should achieve herd immunity very soon.  It just goes against all science and statistics.  His constant justification of no-mask based on at best cherry picked studies, and some epidemiologists indicating his lack of understanding of R number and using terms like community spread vs transmission as a layperson would.  I was agnostic toward Sweden and its ways, but never saw any data that backed up whatever they said.



icecoast1 said:


> Largely due to being misled by China early on in the pandemic.  Perhaps if outside medical officials were allowed in early on, we might have actually seen what was going on and taken a different approach.  I'd be willing to bet, you wouldn't see people like Fauci saying it's nothing to worry about and won't be a problem for us.  And it could have lead to a much more reasonable and more effective approach than the one we took.
> 
> We were already in a lockdown or stay at home order when Italy was going through the peak of their infection curve, and Italy was widely cited as a reason for the measures we took, and what happened in italy never really happened here (perhaps maybe in NYC early on, but not to the extent it happened in Italy)


You are painting China with a broad brush as if the municipal, regional and national government are the same.  There were alot of inter-regional conflict and assertion of power going on, not unlike the Trump/Cuomo/Deblasio tussle that was going on.  If foreign media covered the US with such obtuse angle, then all you will hear will be the negatives of each governmental office that would make for an extremely sinister, incompetent or irrational story-line.

Trump shut down the US's CDC partnership with China's CDC (an organization that the US trained), effectively blinding us to what is going on there.

Fauci listens mainly looks at the data, along with WHO, which is a international agency that is extremely cautious on its pronouncements and requires extensive evidence before announcing them.

You don't have to look at a country go over the peak to take notice.  They were already having heavy hospitalization in early March.  DeBlasio was still talking about St 
Patrick's day parade going ahead while everbody else were cancelling theirs, including in St Patty's homeand..Ireland.  At the exponential rate the virus was spreading, every day of inaction makes a tremendous difference down the road.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

da-bum said:


> the main thing is they all took serious actions before it got to the point where lockdown was thought of as the only solution. China, and especiall Wuhan did that because the outbreak got so bad, that was the only option. Their lockdown was literally nobody could go out.


You're quite right on that. 

In fact, Wuhan was a perfect illustration of "what NOT to do"! The communist party boss clamp down on the doctors who sounded the alarm (only among doctors) to prevent ANY kind of action to be taken. The delay from that "information quarantine" put them on the path that full lockdown was the only destination. 

The west have a lot more transparency. So we actually got to see how the deniers resisting the many sensible restrictions early on. And politicians dilly dallying about not willing to make tough decisions like the South Koreans and Singaporeans.  

While the cause for the delay were different, the results are exactly the same. No early action == full lockdown a week or two later! 

All that study paper had "proved" was there ARE better ways to reduce the spread of the virus! If only it had been done at the right time! (that is, had the paper included countries like Singapore/Taiwan etc, it would have been quite clear).


----------



## JimG. (Jan 15, 2021)

You folks really need to get out and ski.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You folks really need to get out and ski.


In case you haven't noticed, there's only very thin man made snow on most mountains!

Yes, I prefer to waste my time talk about Covid than to waste it scrape ice mixed with dirt! (and yes, I went out last week, the bottom of my ski shows  )

Let's hope this weekend's storm open up some terrain. There might be less post here and more on the trip report section.


----------



## skiur (Jan 15, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you haven't noticed, there's only very thin man made snow on most mountains!
> 
> Yes, I prefer to waste my time talk about Covid than to waste it scrape ice mixed with dirt! (and yes, I went out last week, the bottom of my ski shows  )
> 
> Let's hope this weekend's storm open up some terrain. There might be less post here and more on the trip report section.



Killington has tons of skiing available, nats are getting kinda boney but the snowmaking trails have plenty of coverage.  My season pass cost a grand and it was well worth it the way this year has gone.  I feel bad for epic pass holders.


----------



## gittist (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you haven't noticed, there's only very thin man made snow on most mountains!
> 
> Yes, I prefer to waste my time talk about Covid than to waste it scrape ice mixed with dirt! (and yes, I went out last week, the bottom of my ski shows  )
> 
> Let's hope this weekend's storm open up some terrain. There might be less post here and more on the trip report section.


Agreed. I just returned after skiing for  3 days.  It was spring skiing, silky smooth (yes but rare) to nickel and quarter sized rocks across the trails, and brown snow. Since it was a Vail resort there were a few closed trails with mounds of snow and then towards the middle of the week it seemed like they were closing what good trails they had to force us onto the crappy trails. 

Between the weather and COVID skiing ain't too much fun this year.  I wonder how many will go to the slopes to ski when the temperature drops to zero and the wind is blowing but you can't go in the lodge?  The locals can ski until they're cold then go home but for those of us that have to drive some distance, we won't do it.

So I'll probably only get 3 days out of my season pass this year :-(

Don't eat yellow snow (seems to more of it this year for some reason)!


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

gittist said:


> Don't eat yellow snow (seems to more of it this year for some reason)!




(the "reason" we all know...)


----------



## JimG. (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you haven't noticed, there's only very thin man made snow on most mountains!
> 
> Yes, I prefer to waste my time talk about Covid than to waste it scrape ice mixed with dirt! (and yes, I went out last week, the bottom of my ski shows  )
> 
> Let's hope this weekend's storm open up some terrain. There might be less post here and more on the trip report section.


Stop being so fussy! Hard to believe anyone would rather discuss this crap than ski, I don't care if it's on one trail of ice cubes.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 16, 2021)

gittist said:


> Agreed. I just returned after skiing for  3 days.  It was spring skiing, silky smooth (yes but rare) to nickel and quarter sized rocks across the trails, and brown snow. Since it was a Vail resort there were a few closed trails with mounds of snow and then towards the middle of the week it seemed like they were closing what good trails they had to force us onto the crappy trails.
> 
> Between the weather and COVID skiing ain't too much fun this year.  I wonder how many will go to the slopes to ski when the temperature drops to zero and the wind is blowing but you can't go in the lodge?  The locals can ski until they're cold then go home but for those of us that have to drive some distance, we won't do it.
> 
> ...


Vote with your dollars next year and DON'T support Vail!!


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Stop being so fussy! Hard to believe anyone would rather discuss this crap than ski, I don't care if it's on one trail of ice cubes.


You have as much right to enjoy "one trail of ice cubes" as I have to not waste my time on it.

I'm not the least bit ashamed to be "fussy"


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

Where are these crappy trails?..


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Where are these crappy trails?..


Gore got close to a foot yesterday into today


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

wish i was there...And I would be if I could buy a ticket for tomorrow..


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2021)

da-bum said:


> they did not include China in the study because their lockdown was absolute and rigidly enforced, thus bringing their runaway case level down to practically zero and now life goes on there.



Do you like bridges?  I have a nifty one in Brooklyn I'd like to unload; good price too.


----------



## abc (Jan 18, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you like bridges?  I have a nifty one in Brooklyn I'd like to unload; good price too.


Which part do you find untrue? The "their lockdown was absolute and rigidly enforced" part, or the "
case level down to practically zero and now life goes on there" part?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Which part do you find untrue? The "their lockdown was absolute and rigidly enforced" part, or the "
> case level down to practically zero and now life goes on there" part?


He doesn’t believe China gave out correct info and lied about their data.


----------



## Puck it (Jan 18, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> He doesn’t believe China gave out correct info and lied about their data.


Locking people in their homes from the outside worked so well and does not take your freedom.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2021)

A peer reviewed study has shown that lockdowns have “no clear, significant beneficial effect”.  Pardon the source for the article.  Other than Fox News, I couldn't find any coverage from the mainstream media when I Googled it.








						Lockdown 'INEFFECTIVE' against spread of COVID-19, may even increase risk to vulnerable populations, research claims
					

A Stanford University study claims mandatory stay-at-home orders and business closures have “no clear, significant beneficial effect” on Covid-19 case growth and may even lead to more frequent infections in nursing homes.




					www.rt.com
				




The actual paper can be found here:


			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13484
		



I seem to recall some people saying that we need to, "listen to the science."


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 18, 2021)

Going on Day 28 at Wachusett. If it's safe at Wawa then it can be safe anywhere


----------



## Puck it (Jan 18, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> A peer reviewed study has shown that lockdowns have “no clear, significant beneficial effect”.  Pardon the source for the article.  Other than Fox News, I couldn't find any coverage from the mainstream media when I Googled it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are multiple papers. I think 20-30 from around the world. Ivor Cummins out of Ireland has posting them on his pages.  It is all about the optics have you not learned that.


----------



## Puck it (Jan 18, 2021)

MadMadWorld said:


> Going on Day 28 at Wachusett. If it's safe at Wawa then it can be safe anywhere


Day 30 and going out to eat Up North quite a bit and still feeling the same as before March.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Jan 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> It helps to have a more successful approach when you have inside knowledge of the virus as you're willingly allowing it to spread around the globe while taking extreme precautions in your own country and lying about it to the rest of the world


All China had to do post lockdown to make it look to the world that their lockdown worked was lower the CT threshold of the tests and shazam! the case count plummets!  
China can then sell the lockdown BS narrative to the rest of the world gullible enough to believe the communist chinese party.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 18, 2021)

Puck it said:


> Locking people in their homes from the outside is worked so well and free.


Good to see nothing has changed


----------



## abc (Jan 18, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> All China had to do post lockdown to make it look to the world that their lockdown worked was lower the CT threshold of the tests and shazam! the case count plummets!
> China can then sell the lockdown BS narrative to the rest of the world gullible enough to believe the communist chinese party.


So I guess the part that people don't believe about China is that lockdown works. 

But do you believe they HAD A LOCKDOWN in the first place? How long was the lockdown? All we have is the Chinese government said they had a virus, and had a lockdown, then the virus is no more. Which part of that narrative is real and which is not? Sounds like the part people have question is the virus not there any more part. But is there any evidence? Or was there any evidence there WAS a virus in one city only? Maybe the virus wasn't in that city at all? It maybe in a different city? They created this whole drama just for show? 

I'm afraid I can't figure out what to believe when it comes to China. 

Having said all that, what about Australia? And New Zealand? Seem they got rid of the virus there. Is that real? Did it prove lockdown works or did it prove lockdown is unnecessary?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2021)

abc said:


> So I guess the part that people don't believe about China is that lockdown works.
> 
> But do you believe they HAD A LOCKDOWN in the first place? How long was the lockdown? All we have is the Chinese government said they had a virus, and had a lockdown, then the virus is no more. Which part of that narrative is real and which is not? Sounds like the part people have question is the virus not there any more part. But is there any evidence? Or was there any evidence there WAS a virus in one city only? Maybe the virus wasn't in that city at all? It maybe in a different city? They created this whole drama just for show?
> 
> ...


China got rid of covid? https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-reports-over-100-covid-013624550.html


----------



## kingslug (Jan 19, 2021)

Apparently not. And I wouldn't believe any of those numbers..matter of fact you can't believe any numbers from anywhere.


----------



## abc (Jan 19, 2021)

So you all don't believe the numbers.

But you do believe there was a government imposed lockdown?


----------



## zoomzoom (Jan 20, 2021)

you say that a peer reviewed study has shown that lockdowns have “no clear, significant beneficial effect”.

you clipped off part of the conclusion, there's more. 

"Implementing any NPIs was associated with significant reductions in case growth in 9 out of
10 study countries, including South Korea and Sweden that implemented only lrNPIs (Spain had a
non-significant effect). After subtracting the epidemic and lrNPI effects, we find no clear, significant
beneficial effect of mrNPIs on case growth in any country."

they're saying that significant reductions in covid growth can be realized with non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs).

they also concluded that mrNPI's didn't offer significant reduction in covid growth rates over lrNPI's.

you quoted the RT headline without reading the actual conclusion in the paper.

here's another article showing the same conclusion, also from stanford.
https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/lives-saved-examination-lockdown-policies


----------



## drjeff (Jan 24, 2021)

Well one thing for certain about a cold, windy day like today, mask wearing compliance in the liftlines, goes WAY up, even without prompting from the line attendants!!


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 26, 2021)

In Sullivan county NY close to where I live ed from 2017 to 2019

Someone who recently went skiing in the Hudson Valley later tested positive for COVID-19.









						Warning: Potential COVID-19 Exposures at Ski Resort in Hudson Valley
					

Someone who recently went skiing in the Hudson Valley later tested positive for COVID-19.




					wpdh.com
				



Hope cuckoo does not stop ski because of this


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2021)

I have to imagine that this has happened numerous times. I know of several people who ski my local place that have skied and then tested positive.  fortunately I hadn't been in close contact with them, inside or even a chair lift while they were contagious.   and no one outside of their families or close contacts have contracted it.  so I would say that is a testament to the low likely hood of transmission while skiing.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 26, 2021)

Not sure it's newsworthy....this is happening daily between employees and guests.  See- Hunter mountain patrol- that got attention because it shut down the mountain.  But it's happening all over.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2021)

its asymptomatic spread  that has made this thing so spreadable.  Again if you are outside, wearing a mask in line, then skiing is relatively safe.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2021)

lol holiday mountain. you can see the top of one of their chairs on the top of route 17 near monticello. my grandma and my uncle used to have bungalows on kutshers property, and we would sometimes ski holiday mountain when we were little kids. its the only place I've ever seen a hasidic skiing. which, come to think of it, that community is rampant with covid and a general sense of science denialism. i avoid those zones of Brooklyn like the, well, plague.


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i avoid those zones of Brooklyn like the, well, plague.


LOL


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2021)

abc said:


> LOL



very rare that that saying can be used literally.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 26, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> In Sullivan county NY close to where I live ed from 2017 to 2019
> 
> Someone who recently went skiing in the Hudson Valley later tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> ...



But... did they really get it from the ski area or somewhere in between or better yet not even on that day.  That is where contact tracing falls short.  Hard to pin point exactly where some gets infected.


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> very rare that that saying can be used literally.


Exactly!


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 26, 2021)

Promising treatment development .








						Sorrento Announces Positive Preliminary Results of Phase 1b Study of COVI-MSC™ for Treatment of ICU COVID-19 Patients
					

First three patients discharged from Hospital ICU within 8 days from initial IV administration No infusion-related adverse events noted for any patient treated to date SAN DIEGO, Jan. 26, 2021 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Sorrento Therapeutics, Inc. (Nasdaq: SRNE, "Sorrento") announced today positive...




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## asnowmobiler (Jan 27, 2021)

Are the bars and restaurants open in Vermont? I can't seem to find a clear answer on the Vermont website. Next Thursday I'll be heading to Stowe, Okemo and then Mt Snow on the way back to Pennsylvania. 
I have a friend coming along that does not ski and hopping there is something for him to do while I ski. Knowing him he can spend the whole day at a bar.


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 27, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> Are the bars and restaurants open in Vermont? I can't seem to find a clear answer on the Vermont website. Next Thursday I'll be heading to Stowe, Okemo and then Mt Snow on the way back to Pennsylvania.
> I have a friend coming along that does not ski and hopping there is something for him to do while I ski. Knowing him he can spend the whole day at a bar.


Just curious - what is your protocol for travelling with people outside your family?  You guys getting tests before hand?  

One of my ski buddies and I have been pondering this, how we could safely put something together.

BTW, he ended up getting Covid on a ski trip...


----------



## gittist (Jan 27, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> Are the bars and restaurants open in Vermont? I can't seem to find a clear answer on the Vermont website. Next Thursday I'll be heading to Stowe, Okemo and then Mt Snow on the way back to Pennsylvania.
> I have a friend coming along that does not ski and hopping there is something for him to do while I ski. Knowing him he can spend the whole day at a bar.


No bars are open at Vail owned resorts (check the Epic pass site to confirm).  However I don't think the fancy village on the newer side of Stowe is owned by Vail so your buddy can get tanked there, maybe.  

At Okemo he'll have to go to the Loft (over by the clock tower side). The bar at Jackson Gore is only for hotel guests due to COVID, besides the beer is real $$$ there.

We were up a few weeks ago and the restaurants in the Okemo area were open but reservations might be required.  Don't forget that Vermont has a TWO week quarantine requirement and when you get back to PA, Gov Wolf expects you to do a 10-day quarantine too! Awful lot of quarantine for a few days skiing...


----------



## asnowmobiler (Jan 27, 2021)

We will be following all the Protocols the best we can before we leave, so I feel safe traveling with him.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 27, 2021)

It depends on the bar and restaurant. Some are open for take-out only. Some are open with limited indoor dining (typically requiring reservations). And some chose to stay closed...


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

All ski Bars are OPEN in the "Live Free or Die" state of NH.
Partly because the Gov's family owns Waterville


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 27, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> Are the bars and restaurants open in Vermont? I can't seem to find a clear answer on the Vermont website. Next Thursday I'll be heading to Stowe, Okemo and then Mt Snow on the way back to Pennsylvania.
> I have a friend coming along that does not ski and hopping there is something for him to do while I ski. Knowing him he can spend the whole day at a bar.



as far as I know there is no hanging out in the lodge and if something is open they require reservations and some places actually have limitations.  Like Okemo where they have some time to dine location where you arrive no more than 5 minutes early and then have a limited time to eat.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Jan 27, 2021)

I figured the bars at the ski areas will be closed, wondering more about the ones in town. An out of the way locals dive bar is often a great time as well.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 27, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> I figured the bars at the ski areas will be closed, wondering more about the ones in town. An out of the way locals dive bar is often a great time as well.



For Vermont



All “Clubs” as defined by 7 V.S.A. § 2(7) shall suspend on-premises operations.
1st Class licensees who hold a Restaurant License issued by VDH for an on-site kitchen equipped to provide menu service must accompany all beverage alcohol orders with food; serve only those patrons who are seated; and continue to abide by existing health and safety guidance issued by ACCD.
All other 1st Class licensees, including Clubs, shall suspend operations.
4th Class licensees that operate a tasting room primarily focused on providing retail sales may operate as follows:
Only serve samples of products with the intent of selling product to be consumed off-site;
Maintain contact tracing logs;
Maximum occupancy: 50 percent, or occupancy that ensures social distancing between households, whichever is less;
Members of separate households must be kept 6’ apart from other households, and mingling between households must be prohibited;
When serving at a bar, counter or other area, including any space used as a drink prep area, a barrier must be in place to separate customers from the server; and
When customers are not actively tasting, masks must be worn.
Holders of both a 1st and 4th class license may only operate in accordance with the guidance for 1st class licensees and 4th class licensees set forth above.

All other 4th Class licensees shall suspend operations.
All premises suspending or modifying operations hereunder may offer or continue to offer take-out, curbside pickup and delivery of beverage alcohol, including spirit-based drinks and malt and vinous product.

Restaurants:
Restaurants are restricted to allowing only one household per table.
All guests must be seated, and no standing or mingling is allowed.
All in-person service at restaurants must stop table service at 10pm. Take out or curbside service is allowed after 10pm.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> For Vermont
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was literally about to post this exact same thing when the forum told me there's a new post in this thread. Good thing I looked at it before posting!

If someone is looking for a typical "bar" experience in VT, you won't find it right now (or at least you shouldn't under the rules).


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

Once again - NH is the place in NE for lack of restrictions at resorts.
 Wildcat lodge is "limited access" but Bar is fully open


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> All ski Bars are OPEN in the "Live Free or Die" state of NH.
> Partly because the Gov's family owns Waterville


Well I know a few closed for a few weeks as staff had covid at both ski areas.


----------



## flakeydog (Jan 27, 2021)

I hear the bars are much nicer over in NH this time of year.  Test Positivity in NH = 11-12%, VT = 2-3%, a real head-scratcher if you ask me...


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

Yup  Highest in NE.  That's what you get w/ minimal regulations.
Very few people out and about wearing masks


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Once again - NH is the place in NE for lack of restrictions at resorts.
> Wildcat lodge is "limited access" but Bar is fully open


Not for liquor right? Just cans of unimpressive beer.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not for liquor right? Just cans of unimpressive beer.


Full bar menu last weekend.  11am Bloody's for party of 6

I haven't seen any place yet in NH that is beer only.


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Full bar menu last weekend.  11am Bloody's for party of 6
> 
> I haven't seen any place yet in NH that is beer only.


That’s weird, I was there last Friday and didn’t realize that. Good to know.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Yup  Highest in NE.  That's what you get w/ minimal regulations.
> Very few people out and about wearing masks



VT Covid hospitalizations Jan 1- 31.....Jan 27- 47 (down from the 50s the past few days)

NH Covid hospitalizations Jan 1- 317...Jan 27- 223

Minimal regulations or maximum regulations has very very little effect on what's happening.  Vermont is one of the few places Covid has gotten worse wince the New Year.  And all those states you heard about before Thanksgiving with "apocalyptic" numbers like the Dakota's, Nebraska, Montana, etc- they've all stomped this thing out to nearly nothing- seriously, now hospitalizations are less than a quarter of what they were at the peak in those areas.


----------



## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> All ski Bars are OPEN in the "Live Free or Die" state of NH.
> Partly because the Gov's family owns Waterville


Some are, some have closed.  Cannon had the pub at Peabody closed due to Covid, it's reopened now but no food service.  Loon had all indoor dining and bars closed UFN.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

machski said:


> Some are, some have closed.  Cannon had the pub at Peabody closed due to Covid, it's reopened now but no food service.  Loon had all indoor dining and bars closed UFN.


OK, then MWV ski bars are open

Clarification - NH has highest 7 Day Positivity Rate in NE @ 7.8% . VT is lowest in USA @ 2.1%
https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...y-covid-19-test-positivity-rates-july-14.html


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> I figured the bars at the ski areas will be closed, wondering more about the ones in town. An out of the way locals dive bar is often a great time as well.


I don't think the locals bar will be too thrilled with you pulling in with a PA license plate.  Still lots of out of state xenophobia and mistrust.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 28, 2021)

But states are starting to relax the guidelines.
  NH - No quarantine necessary starting 15 days after 2nd Vacc dose.

More states will adopt these newer measures over the next few weeks


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2021)

VT will be the last state to relax any guidelines.  Guaranteed.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> VT will be the last state to relax any guidelines.  Guaranteed.



It is almost certain.  I would've said NY and CA too but they figured out they have economies to protect.  Didn't VT already send out a memo saying to expect quarantine restrictions until at least Labor Day?  Or was that just a rumor?


----------



## machski (Jan 28, 2021)

2Planker said:


> OK, then MWV ski bars are open
> 
> Clarification - NH has highest 7 Day Positivity Rate in NE @ 7.8% . VT is lowest in USA @ 2.1%
> https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...y-covid-19-test-positivity-rates-july-14.html


This stat is skewed as NH also has the lowest testing numbers per 100,000 population in new England.  In fact, about 1/7th the rate of VT which skews NH positive% higher though may not indicate actual reality.  Ahh, statistics.  Meaningless without figuring the baseline and evaluating accordingly.


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 28, 2021)

machski said:


> This stat is skewed as NH also has the lowest testing numbers per 100,000 population in new England.  In fact, about 1/7th the rate of VT which skews NH positive% higher though may not indicate actual reality.  Ahh, statistics.  Meaningless without figuring the baseline and evaluating accordingly.


I think  hospitalizations and deaths is probably a better comparrison - really, either per capita or total - since the two states are similar in size and geography.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> VT will be the last state to relax any guidelines.  Guaranteed.


Agree 100%

Although I doubt that they'll change how they're "enforcing" their guidelines at all between now and whenever Gov Scott formerly removes the restrictions.

They'll likely make some media noise about the colleges as the students come back on campus (based on what a patient of mine who is a UVM student told me last week, UVM is bringing their students back on campus this coming weekend), but unless things DRASTICALLY change with indisputable proof that a major outbreak was tied directly to ski area operations, I strongly suspect that what VT has been doing all ski season will be the same the rest of the ski season


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

The NYT is now tracking excess deaths by state. Adjusted for population and sample size, Maine has preformed best in new england since March 2020, followed by NH and then VT. To be fair the results in the three northern new england states are extraordinarily similar, the differences can likely be attributed to noise. 









						574,000 More U.S. Deaths Than Normal Since Covid-19 Struck (Published 2021)
					

Since the coronavirus pandemic began sweeping across the country last year, deaths have been 21 percent above normal. See the breakdown by state.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 28, 2021)

As much as I enjoy a good dive bar, sitting in one all day during a pandemic doesn't seem like a good idea.  Nor does getting back in the car with the guy who just sat in a bar all day.  But I guess it will take a few days for the bar sitter to become contagious.


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 28, 2021)

thebigo said:


> The NYT is now tracking excess deaths by state. Adjusted for population and sample size, Maine has preformed best in new england since March 2020, followed by NH and then VT. To be fair the results in the three northern new england states are extraordinarily similar, the differences can likely be attributed to noise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow - look at that NYC graph....


So it that the best metric to compare?  that would suggest no meaningful benefit to VT's strict protocols?


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 28, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Wow - look at that NYC graph....
> 
> 
> So it that the best metric to compare?  that would suggest no meaningful benefit to VT's strict protocols?


Something seems off - if NH has about 1,000 total deaths and VT has 172, how could their  average death increases be similar?


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Something seems off - if NH has about 1,000 total deaths and VT has 172, how could their  average death increases be similar?


Per NYT: NH has 1000 total excess deaths. VT has 500 total excess deaths.

NH has >2X VT population. VT data is only reported through 12/26, NH is reported through 1/9. There is certainly noise in the data but I doubt the noise is sufficient to change the conclusion.


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> Although I doubt that they'll change how they're "enforcing" their guidelines at all between now and whenever Gov Scott formerly removes the restrictions.
> 
> They'll likely make some media noise about the colleges as the students come back on campus (based on what a patient of mine who is a UVM student told me last week, UVM is bringing their students back on campus this coming weekend), but unless things DRASTICALLY change with indisputable proof that a major outbreak was tied directly to ski area operations, I strongly suspect that what VT has been doing all ski season will be the same the rest of the ski season


There's currently an outbreak of 70+ cases at Norwich University








						Norwich University sees nearly 70 COVID cases
					

Norwich University is reporting nearly 70 COVID cases since they started testing earlier this month for the start of the spring semester. Right now, students are in a modified room quarantine to help contain the spread.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## flakeydog (Jan 28, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Something seems off - if NH has about 1,000 total deaths and VT has 172, how could their  average death increases be similar?


NH has 2.2x more people so 172 vs 1,000  --_math, math, stats, stats, yada yada, carry the 2..._--  makes sense to me!  

Seems so silly that Vermont has such draconian communist measures in place when they only have 20% of the cases and deaths of our neighbor to the east.  It's so unfair that we cant hang out in bars like the NH people.  Wait, maybe there is something to be said here...  I know, open the bars and let in the masses so we can level the playing field.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> NH has 2.2x more people so 172 vs 1,000  --_math, math, stats, stats, yada yada, carry the 2..._--  makes sense to me!
> 
> Seems so silly that Vermont has such draconian communist measures in place when they only have 20% of the cases and deaths of our neighbor to the east.  It's so unfair that we cant hang out in bars like the NH people.  Wait, maybe there is something to be said here...  I know, open the bars and let in the masses so we can level the playing field.


You are comparing total reported covid deaths with excess deaths. The definition of apples to oranges. 

Approximate total excess deaths in VT per link: 500
Approximate total excess deaths in NH per link: 1000


----------



## flakeydog (Jan 28, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You are comparing total reported covid deaths with excess deaths. The definition of apples to oranges.
> 
> Approximate total excess deaths in VT per link: 500
> Approximate total excess deaths in NH per link: 1000


Actually, I was comparing actual deaths to actual deaths, not excess deaths.  Just found it interesting that NH has 2X the population and over 5X the cases and deaths that VT has.  I was attempting a light-hearted effort to highlight this while many people bitch an moan about VT and their awful (and supposedly ineffective) restrictions. 

I think the excess death analysis loses too much accuracy when applied to smaller populations.  It means a lot more when looked at in aggregate over a larger population, larger states, regions, the country as a whole.


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 28, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> NH has 2.2x more people so 172 vs 1,000  --_math, math, stats, stats, yada yada, carry the 2..._--  makes sense to me!
> 
> Seems so silly that Vermont has such draconian communist measures in place when they only have 20% of the cases and deaths of our neighbor to the east.  It's so unfair that we cant hang out in bars like the NH people.  Wait, maybe there is something to be said here...  I know, open the bars and let in the masses so we can level the playing field.


172x2.2=378.

----oh - I see your point and agree.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It is almost certain.  I would've said NY and CA too but they figured out they have economies to protect.  Didn't VT already send out a memo saying to expect quarantine restrictions until at least Labor Day?  Or was that just a rumor?


Yeah, Labor Day of 2030


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Actually, I was comparing actual deaths to actual deaths, not excess deaths.  Just found it interesting that NH has 2X the population and over 5X the cases and deaths that VT has.  I was attempting a light-hearted effort to highlight this while many people bitch an moan about VT and their awful (and supposedly ineffective) restrictions.
> 
> I think the excess death analysis loses too much accuracy when applied to smaller populations.  It means a lot more when looked at in aggregate over a larger population, larger states, regions, the country as a whole.



The specific number of deaths attributed to covid only matters if you believe the dead person and their family care how their death was recorded.

The data suggests that the likelihood of death for a Vermont resident increased more than the likelihood of death for a Maine or New Hampshire resident since the start of the pandemic.

I got no skin in this game, I have not left NH in nearly a year and have no plans to leave anytime soon. I only posted because the data surprised me and I am open to other data but just discounting excess deaths because it does not suit a narrative is not persuasive.


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2021)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Yeah, Labor Day of 2030


I think this is a legacy thing for Gov Scott, saying that his state had the lowest numbers throughout the pandemic.  Even Fauci did a presser with Scott saying that VT is the best.  Maybe he has larger aspirations like a Fed position.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 28, 2021)

Seems its always about personal career growth, doesn't it? Left or right.

Well, until cases don;'t have monetary attachments, I won't fully trust them. It was $13K per Covid case in hospitals and $39K per ventilator case in Spring. Don't know if that's changed. But you wouldn't want to be Gov Cuomo at this point on track record.








						NY Nursing Home Deaths May Have Been 50% Higher Than Reported, AG's Office Says
					

New York may have undercounted COVID-19 deaths among nursing home residents by thousands, the state attorney general charged in a report Thursday that dealt a blow to Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s oft-repeated claims that his state is doing better than others in protecting its most vulnerable. The 76-page...




					www.nbcnewyork.com


----------



## JimG. (Jan 28, 2021)

1dog said:


> Seems its always about personal career growth, doesn't it? Left or right.
> 
> Well, until cases don;'t have monetary attachments, I won't fully trust them. It was $13K per Covid case in hospitals and $39K per ventilator case in Spring. Don't know if that's changed. But you wouldn't want to be Gov Cuomo at this point on track record.
> 
> ...


Will they take Cuomo's Emmy away?

I loved my parents more than anything, but I'm glad they both passed away (from old age) a few years ago.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I think this is a legacy thing for Gov Scott, saying that his state had the lowest numbers throughout the pandemic.  Even Fauci did a presser with Scott saying that VT is the best.  Maybe he has larger aspirations like a Fed position.



I think that is partially it, partially because he could get away with it given the high Democrat % of VT, partially due to the fact that a good chunk of VT'ers really don't like outsiders/tourists (major can of worms opening alert), and yes, partially because VT hospital infrastructure could not handle a sizable outbreak.  

Overall I believe a majority of the state (slim majority) will be happy with his response.


----------



## flakeydog (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I think this is a legacy thing for Gov Scott, saying that his state had the lowest numbers throughout the pandemic.  Even Fauci did a presser with Scott saying that VT is the best.  Maybe he has larger aspirations like a Fed position.


Yeah, that's got to be it.  It's all about the numbers and getting a big 'ol pat on the back, right? How narcissistic of him!

I would say all the way back to the days of the Green Mountain Boys, Vermont could give two shits what the rest of the country thinks of us.  See "Exhibit A" below


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 28, 2021)

Vermont without the rest of the country would just be West Virginia 2 in terms of quality of life, poverty levels, and health outcomes. So, enjoy that, I guess.


----------



## tumbler (Jan 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I think that is partially it, partially because he could get away with it given the high Democrat % of VT, partially due to the fact that a good chunk of VT'ers really don't like outsiders/tourists (major can of worms opening alert), and yes, partially because VT hospital infrastructure could not handle a sizable outbreak.
> 
> Overall I believe a majority of the state (slim majority) will be happy with his response.


Scott is a Republican.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Scott is a Republican.



Yes, but he is popular amongst people from both parties from my understanding.  The D's are really pushing for restrictions and a government that regulates and intervenes in this pandemic.  Hence they find his moves popular.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2021)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Vermont without the rest of the country would just be West Virginia 2 in terms of quality of life, poverty levels, and health outcomes. So, enjoy that, I guess.



Unfortunately it is really getting to that point.  The drug issues in VT are huge.  And the opportunities within the state for a better life are decreasing.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> There's currently an outbreak of 70+ cases at Norwich University
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup my son goes there and told me the other day about it. They have been back for 2 weeks and have had to quarantine for the 14 days so they could weed out the infected. in September when they came back less than 10 had it.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 28, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Yeah, that's got to be it.  It's all about the numbers and getting a big 'ol pat on the back, right? How narcissistic of him!
> 
> I would say all the way back to the days of the Green Mountain Boys, Vermont could give two shits what the rest of the country thinks of us.  See "Exhibit A" below
> View attachment 50194


Yup you voted in Bernie from Brooklyn.


----------



## abc (Jan 28, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> I think  hospitalizations and deaths is probably a better comparrison - really, either per capita or total - since the two states are similar in size and geography.


Death is more definitive. But it has a 4 week time lag. So by the time you see the death rate comes up, you've already got all the ICU's filled!

Hospitalization is A LITTLE sooner. Another data is ER visits, even if the patient end up going home. They're sick enough to visit the ER. 

But "testing positive" is really the best and quickest way. Either there's a raging infection going on, or they're ONLY testing those already sick. Either way, you've got a problem! How big a problem? Wait another week and it'll show up in the hospital!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 29, 2021)

abc said:


> Death is more definitive. But it has a 4 week time lag. So by the time you see the death rate comes up, you've already got all the ICU's filled!
> 
> Hospitalization is A LITTLE sooner. Another data is ER visits, even if the patient end up going home. They're sick enough to visit the ER.
> 
> But "testing positive" is really the best and quickest way. Either there's a raging infection going on, or they're ONLY testing those already sick. Either way, you've got a problem! How big a problem? Wait another week and it'll show up in the hospital!


There are plenty of ER nurses and Docs out there who will off the record tell you that many of the people who go to the ER for possible COVID issues are doing so way more out of paranoia than actual necessity. Certainly there are some that do go to the ER for valid reasons, there are though not an insignificant number of people who are going there, thinking they're going to die in the next 24hrs, who just have very mild symptoms and honestly didn't need to go to the ER and could of been monitoring at home with some tele medicine communication with their physician


----------



## abc (Jan 29, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There are plenty of ER nurses and Docs out there who will off the record tell you that many of the people who go to the ER for possible COVID issues are doing so way more out of paranoia than actual necessity. Certainly there are some that do go to the ER for valid reasons, there are though not an insignificant number of people who are going there, thinking they're going to die in the next 24hrs, who just have very mild symptoms and honestly didn't need to go to the ER and could of been monitoring at home with some tele medicine communication with their physician


What I've noticed was ER visits has a similar trend as the "test positive" rate. 

ER visits are by nature not all Covid related. Testing is a more accurate measure. But when testing is limited, or difficult to access, that's when patient end up going to the ER instead. (During the "2nd wave", many testing sites have hour long wait! When you're sick, the last thing you want is to wait in line for an hour, AND still not get seen by a doctor!) Regardless, once they're in the ER, they'll get tested for Covid. So a high ER visit rate together with a high Covid test positive rate is a pretty good indication of "more" covid cases in the community. (in fact, if a lot of people are visiting the ER for non-covid related issues, it would help drive down the test positive rate)

I've used telemedicine a few times for various issues this past year. Physicians don't want to be the one telling the patient to just stay home and monitor their symptoms. They want you to go get tested!

A high test positive rate is just an indication of that, people who're showing symptoms are indeed Covid patients instead of other non-covid disease having similar symptoms.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2021)

In case any of you are wondering, this is how rural Utah spends COVID relief funds.....









						$500K in federal coronavirus money used to build tubing hill in Utah’s Uintah County
					

As they faced a federal spending deadline, elected officials in Uintah County spent thousands on equipment for a snow hill. But it's not clear whether such an expense is allowed under the The Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 29, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> In case any of you are wondering, this is how rural Utah spends COVID relief funds.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Part of the goal of all of that government spending was to stimulate the economy and promote economic recovery, this ski/tubing area does that, doesnt it?  Jobs, tax revenues, etc.....


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 29, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> In case any of you are wondering, this is how rural Utah spends COVID relief funds.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd rather they spend it on a tubing hill than on those stupid metal permanent quarantine signs that Vermont has put up everywhere. I just realized they put one coming into the Mad River Valley from Roxbury. This is actually good for me because I wanted to shoot one up but I figured it would be a little conspicuous doing it on the side of the highway.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 29, 2021)

So what are the rules after someone has both their coved shots?


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So what are the rules after someone has both their coved shots?


NH says Quarantine NO longer necessary 15 days after 2nd dose.
 More states will go w/ this soon


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Part of the goal of all of that government spending was to stimulate the economy and promote economic recovery, this ski/tubing area does that, doesnt it?  Jobs, tax revenues, etc.....


Does it though?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 29, 2021)

2Planker said:


> NH says Quarantine NO longer necessary 15 days after 2nd dose.
> More states will go w/ this soon


Fingers crossed on that as I was fortunate enough to get dose #2 this past Wednesday...

And no side effects, with either dose of the Moderna vaccine short of a couple of days of soreness at the injection site


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Fingers crossed on that as I was fortunate enough to get dose #2 this past Wednesday...
> 
> And no side effects, with either dose of the Moderna vaccine short of a couple of days of soreness at the injection site



 I got Pfizer.  Arm was pretty sore for just 1 day after each dose.

Many seem to be having more of a reaction to 2nd dose - Headache, Fever, Fatigue


----------



## drjeff (Jan 30, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I got Pfizer.  Arm was pretty sore for just 1 day after each dose.
> 
> Many seem to be having more of a reaction to 2nd dose - Headache, Fever, Fatigue


Out of the 10 of us in my office who have received both of our doses now, we had 1 with a low grade fever (low 99's) and on/off chills and hot flashes both times, a couple of mild head/body aches, but most were just injection site soreness for a couple of days. Certainly nothing major or unexpected in our cases


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 30, 2021)

Similar here, But we have had 5-6  w/ Fever next day, so they couldn't get past the Covid Security to get in.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 30, 2021)

Just read that a congressman tested positive for COVID after receiving his second round of vaccine.

Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose (msn.com)

None of this is inspiring confidence in my case.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 30, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just read that a congressman tested positive for COVID after receiving his second round of vaccine.
> 
> Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose (msn.com)
> 
> None of this is inspiring confidence in my case.


What to watch is the data coming out of Israel over the next few weeks.

They have now close to 80% of their most vulnerable, high risk (over 70 and/or other co morbidities) now with the 1st and most with the 2nd dose administered as well. 

A decrease in their mortality rates in theory should be declining.

Also, it is possible to test positive for COVID, as a result of receiving the vaccine recently


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 30, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just read that a congressman tested positive for COVID after receiving his second round of vaccine.
> 
> Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose (msn.com)
> 
> None of this is inspiring confidence in my case.


That was always a possibility.  Not much cause for concern unless large groups of people start getting seriously ill or dying from the virus after getting vaccinated


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Fingers crossed on that as I was fortunate enough to get dose #2 this past Wednesday...
> 
> And no side effects, with either dose of the Moderna vaccine short of a couple of days of soreness at the injection site


Get my 2nd shot of Pfizer’s in a few weeks. No side effects nor any injection site pain from the first.


----------



## abc (Jan 31, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Also, it is possible to test positive for COVID, as a result of receiving the vaccine recently


Source please?

Friend my mine was foolish enough to attend a wedding the same day as he received his vaccine, indoor & maskless. He was then informed by the groom’s father he’s been in contact with a person tested positive, and was awaiting his own test result. 2 days later, result came back, positive. 

So now my friend is in self isolation and plan to get tested Monday. Will his vaccination invalid his covid test?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Also, it is possible to test positive for COVID, as a result of receiving the vaccine recently



As these are mRNA vaccines (at the moment until others come out) that seems unlikely.


----------



## abc (Jan 31, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just read that a congressman tested positive for COVID after receiving his second round of vaccine.
> 
> Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose (msn.com)
> 
> None of this is inspiring confidence in my case.


Vaccine aren't proven to prevent infection. 

It only prevents getting the vaccinated from getting seriously sick. 

In fact, that's the reason why people who're vaccinated still have to wear mask and social distance, until all others are vaccinated.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Vaccine aren't proven to prevent infection.
> 
> It only prevents getting the vaccinated from getting seriously sick.
> 
> In fact, that's the reason why people who're vaccinated still have to wear mask and social distance, until all others are vaccinated.


No they were proven to be less than 100% effective in preventing infection. 90-95%. So 5-10 people out of 100 can still get it after they are vaccinated. Also it takes time after your 2nd shot for it to take full effect.


----------



## 1dog (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Vaccine aren't proven to prevent infection.
> 
> It only prevents getting the vaccinated from getting seriously sick.
> 
> In fact, that's the reason why people who're vaccinated still have to wear mask and social distance, until all others are vaccinated.


Believe that's correct. Asked all my contacts in the medical field about the probability of being a carrier even after 2 nd shot- no definitive answer.

Merck has decide to drop the R&D on a vaccine stating that they believe its much ore effective to contract it and make your own antibodies. . . . .  using the virus as oppose to the mRNA method.




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




With 26 million vaccines given, you would think the critically at-risk people were all taken care of -not so.  

One dreams to believe all will be vaccinated. It will end up being 50% of there population- maybe 60%.


----------



## machski (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just read that a congressman tested positive for COVID after receiving his second round of vaccine.
> 
> Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose (msn.com)
> 
> None of this is inspiring confidence in my case.


Be careful not knowing the full details and basing a personal decision on that.  Even after the second dose, maximum protection is not afforded until 14 days after receiving it.  For both Pfizer and Moderna I believe.  Not knowing how far this congressman was from his second dose doesn't prove a thing.  It is possible he got infected prior to receiving the second dose and didn't test positive until just after receiving that second dose.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 1, 2021)

machski said:


> Be careful not knowing the full details and basing a personal decision on that.  Even after the second dose, maximum protection is not afforded until 14 days after receiving it.  For both Pfizer and Moderna I believe.  Not knowing how far this congressman was from his second dose doesn't prove a thing.  It is possible he got infected prior to receiving the second dose and didn't test positive until just after receiving that second dose.


Ha...I'm in no position to make any personal decisions regarding vaccination. I'm not over 65 nor am I an "essential" worker. I don't work in healthcare. I have no preexisting conditions that would move me up in line. Nope, I'm just sitting here watching rich and entitled people plot to get it out of turn, or flat earthers destroying vaccine. The whole thing is so disorganized and chaotic I have no reason to feel anything other than zero confidence.

Which is fine by me. I'm not sick nor do I fear getting sick. As I've said before, I'll let the rich, famous, politically connected, and the hystericals get it first. I figure that covers at least 50% of the population. By then the negative aspects will all shake out. I figure by the end of spring I'll feel comfortable enough to allow someone to jab me. Just about the same time my place in line comes up.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> By then the negative aspects will all shake out. I figure by the end of spring I'll feel comfortable enough to allow someone to jab me. Just about the same time my place in line comes up.


"the negatives" had already been shaken out since the phase III trial from last fall. We're talking about roughly 50,000 brave "volunteers"! Any thing that's less than 0.002% (1/50,000) isn't worth counting.

Fear of loooong term issues, we won't find out till the time passes. Time we don't have the luxury of. So it's take our chance in getting it (vaccine), or take our chance in getting "it" (virus).

Personally, I'm inclined to follow the herd, which is getting the vaccine jab.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> "the negatives" had already been shaken out since the phase III trial from last fall. We're talking about roughly 50,000 brave "volunteers"! Any thing that's less than 0.002% (1/50,000) isn't worth counting.
> 
> Fear of loooong term issues, we won't find out till the time passes. Time we don't have the luxury of. So it's take our chance in getting it (vaccine), or take our chance in getting "it" (virus).
> 
> Personally, I'm inclined to follow the herd, which is getting the vaccine jab.


The immediate negatives maybe, but the long term not until time passes. 1 per 50,000? Great unless you are the 1!

I'll wait for now since big brother says I can't get it yet. So I'll let you lemmings go first.

I did the same with my shingles vaccine. The first vaccine called Zostervaxx came with a roughly 25% chance of getting shingles anyway. What's the point of that? So they developed Shingrix which I got immediately after it became available. Guessing the same will happen with COVID...I'll wait for the good stuff.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> The first vaccine called Zostervaxx came with a roughly 25% chance of getting shingles anyway. What's the point of that?


Except the Covid vaccine is 95%!

Your waiting till spring only buys you 2 extra months. But that 2 months is already covered by the phase III trial. Any truly long term effect, like a couple years down the road, you aren't going to see it by spring of 2021!



JimG. said:


> 1 per 50,000? Great unless you are the 1


Even if you wait till spring, you may THINK you improve your odd to 1 in 5 million. Great unless *you're the 1*.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Except the Covid vaccine is 95%!
> 
> Your waiting till spring only buys you 2 extra months. But that 2 months is already covered by the phase III trial. Any truly long term effect, like a couple years down the road, you aren't going to see it by spring of 2021!
> 
> ...



The J & J vaccine is only 66% effective.  Sad part about the vaccination process,  you do not have the option.  My sister was told which vaccine she got after she had already received it.  Where our step daughter works they had Moderna and lots of people were getting rashes and some also got hospitalized so they ceased distribution - same in San Diego.  They believe it was a specific batch.  Pfizer seems to be the apparent best,


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 1, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> The J & J vaccine is only 66% effective.  Sad part about the vaccination process,  you do not have the option.  My sister was told which vaccine she got after she had already received it.  Where our step daughter works they had Moderna and lots of people were getting rashes and some also got hospitalized so they ceased distribution - same in San Diego.  They believe it was a specific batch.  Pfizer seems to be the apparent best,


J&J is 65% but 85% effective in people not getting symptoms or at least symptoms needing hospitalization. J&J has not been approved yet and from what I am hearing may go to poorer countries to at least get them something.
I got the Pfizer one and no side effects after the first but haven't gotten the 2nd one yet.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

The "traditional" vaccine (non-mRNA) vaccines got a poor rep because they somehow measures infection in addition to measure severe cases. When you look at preventing severe cases, they seem to do just as well (or "almost as well" anyway) as the other two. Both of the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer/Mordena) only look at severe cases, didn't report asymptomatic infection rate.

The irony is, mRNA are the "unknown" in long term. Whilst the J&J (& and Oxford vaccine) have a long track record in understanding how the whole "package" behaves inside the human body.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Feb 1, 2021)

1dog said:


> Believe that's correct. Asked all my contacts in the medical field about the probability of being a carrier even after 2 nd shot- no definitive answer.
> 
> Merck has decide to drop the R&D on a vaccine stating that they believe its much ore effective to contract it and make your own antibodies. . . . .  using the virus as oppose to the mRNA method.
> 
> ...


Fact check: Vaccine company did not say it is better to fight COVID-19 than get the vaccine​Facebook users have claimed that pharmaceutical company Merck has said it is better to catch COVID-19 and recover naturally than it is to get vaccinated. This is false. It is a misrepresentation of a statement from Merck.

Multiple posts on Facebook have shared this claim in different ways, whether in written posts, memes or screenshots. One such post reads: “Vaccine manufacturer Merck scraps COVID vaccine, saying studies show it’s more effective to get the virus and recover than get the vaccine” (here). Another says: “According to Merck, they have determined it's better to just get the virus and develop antibodies than taking a vaccine. They have abandoned vaccine development in favour of alternative therapies” (here).

These posts appear to have misinterpreted a recent statement from Merck, which announced on Jan. 25 that it was dropping research on V590 and V591, its two candidate vaccines for COVID-19, to focus on therapeutics instead (here).


Citing its reasons for discontinuing development, the American pharmaceutical giant said: “This decision follows Merck’s review of findings from Phase 1 clinical studies for the vaccines. In these studies, both V590 and V591 were generally well tolerated, but the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection and those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines.” (here)

Therefore, Merck was referring to trial data showing its own vaccine candidates having an inferior result compared to a natural immune response to COVID-19. It was not advising against delivery of other COVID-19 vaccines. As it noted in its statement, other candidate vaccines have led to recipients showing a stronger immune response.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> J&J is 65% but 85% effective in people not getting symptoms or at least symptoms needing hospitalization. J&J has not been approved yet and from what I am hearing may go to poorer countries to at least get them something.
> I got the Pfizer one and no side effects after the first but haven't gotten the 2nd one yet.


I got Pfizer Vacc. No side effects for either dose except for a lil next day tenderness at the injection site


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

1dog said:


> One dreams to believe all will be vaccinated. It will end up being 50% of there population- maybe 60%.


For once, this particular vaccine, the uptake percentage are just adults making decisions for themselves, as kids are not included anyway.

So, any adult choose not to get vaccinated, they're not putting anyone else but themselves at risk. In this free society, I fully support their rights not to get vaccinated. That would speed up the vaccination of those in the lower priority group who wish to be vaccinated.


----------



## 1dog (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> For once, this particular vaccine, the uptake percentage are just adults making decisions for themselves, as kids are not included anyway.
> 
> So, any adult choose not to get vaccinated, they're not putting anyone else but themselves at risk. In this free society, I fully support their rights not to get vaccinated. That would speed up the vaccination of those in the lower priority group who wish to be vaccinated.


Agree.
 The issue I am curious about - those not choosing to get vaccinated - will they be more likely to be carriers? Or, as I suggested in previous post, does it even matter? If those who get vaccinated, can still be carriers to others, then its less likely those who choose not to get it will be vilified.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

1dog said:


> The issue I am curious about - those not choosing to get vaccinated - will they be more likely to be carriers? Or, as I suggested in previous post, does it even matter?


I don't think we have the data to know for sure either way. There're suggestions that vaccinated people are less infectious. But I'm not sure there's sufficient data to support that hypothesis just yet. So for the time being, we have no choice but to assume it doesn't matter. 

In any case, as long as those who want to get vaccinated got vaccinated, they won't get sick whether the unvaccinated spread it or not. The hospitalization and death rate will eventually drop. And the unvaccinated will get a free ride. 

Everyone gets what they want. 

(this is assuming there will be enough number of people taking the vaccine. But it's a self-correcting problem. If there's still a lot of disease, more "on the fence" people will take the vaccine!  )


----------



## zoomzoom (Feb 1, 2021)

Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose​
that's quite a headline, almost reads like the vaccine caused covid.

he tested positive on jan 29th, after getting the vaccine earlier in january.  we know that the vaccine doesn't achieve full efficacy until 10 days after the vaccine, but the dates needed to make a reasonable conclusion are left out of the article.   the only thing i can conclude from this article is that the vaccine isn't 100% effective, and we knew that anyway.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Feb 2, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> Congressman tests positive for COVID after receiving second vaccine dose​
> that's quite a headline, almost reads like the vaccine caused covid.
> 
> he tested positive on jan 29th, after getting the vaccine earlier in january.  we know that the vaccine doesn't achieve full efficacy until 10 days after the vaccine, but the dates needed to make a reasonable conclusion are left out of the article.   the only thing i can conclude from this article is that the vaccine isn't 100% effective, and we knew that anyway.


This is coming from someone who doesn’t know too much about the vaccine, but I recall hearing that you can technically still get COVID after you get both doses of the vaccine, but you will not have symptoms. It could be that or the fact that the vaccine is not 100% effective.


----------



## SnowRock (Feb 2, 2021)

Slidebrook87 said:


> This is coming from someone who doesn’t know too much about the vaccine, but I recall hearing that you can technically still get COVID after you get both doses of the vaccine, but you will not have symptoms. It could be that or the fact that the vaccine is not 100% effective.


Yes... and not to mention with every vaccine so far, hospitalization and mortality rates in the trials have been 0 (regardless of the efficacy levels). So if you do get it, symptoms are not as severe, you don't end up in hospital and you stay alive.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 2, 2021)

What I find interesting at this time is the number of people I know that are as healthy as I am do not work in public safety or medical and are getting the vaccination now and one of those is my sister.  I am of the opinion that I prefer to wait so the first responders, medical staff, those with underlying conditions, and elderly can get the vaccination first.  I think there are so many that fear Covid so much that they are willing to cut in line.  In my sisters case, she is getting it to make sure she can get into the nursing home as soon as they open the doors to see our mother.  We do not even know when that will be.  She is not the only one doing this.


----------



## gittist (Feb 2, 2021)

"I think there are so many that fear Covid so much that they.."   and I think these people are in charge :-(.  I'm waiting for a news report about some zealot chastising scuba divers and snorkelers for not wearing a COVID mask while in the water.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Feb 2, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> In Sullivan county NY close to where I live ed from 2017 to 2019
> 
> Someone who recently went skiing in the Hudson Valley later tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> ...


I just assume half of the people at Wachusett have it. No reason to shut down a ski area when it is probably one of the safest things to be doing in a public setting.


----------



## zoomzoom (Feb 5, 2021)

some positive trends here.
https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 5, 2021)

I pulled these form an article which appears optimistic - while CNN and NPR confirm some of this they still have somewhat negative spin.

Why ARE COVID cases plummeting? New infections have fallen 45% in the US and 30% globally in the past 3 weeks but experts say vaccine is NOT the main driver because only 8% of Americans and 13% people worldwide have received their first dose


Daily cases have dropped 45 percent since the latest peak on January 11, according to data from the COVID-19 Tracking Project . There were 131,341 new cases reported on Wednesday 
The decline appears to be a global phenomenon, with new infections falling worldwide for the past three weeks in a row, the World Health Organization said Monday 
Hospitalizations have fallen a whopping 26 percent since they peaked most recently on January 12 
Currently, 44 states are seeing a decline in cases with just Alabama, Louisiana, Montana, New Jersey, Oklahoma and Pennsylvania trending upward, according to Johns Hopkins data 
California's 21,451 new confirmed cases on Tuesday are about one-third the mid-December peak of 54,000
New York recorded 8,215 new infections on Tuesday, down from the record-high of 19,942 new cases reported on January 15
Health experts say it is too soon for vaccines to be playing a major role in the decline with just 8% of the population having received the first shot and fewer than 2% being fully immunized 
Officials say the drop is likely due to a higher number of people who've had the virus than official counts suggest, as many as 90 million people, and fewer people traveling than did over the winter holidays


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> fewer people traveling than did over the winter holidays


This


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2021)

Interesting read.









						Covid-19 Insurance Coverage and Liability Update
					

This report is excerpted from a longer report by Gfeller Laurie LLP. We thank Charles Gfeller for sharing it with SAM. SAM Magazine—West Hartford, Co




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## ctdubl07 (Feb 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I pulled these form an article which appears optimistic - while CNN and NPR confirm some of this they still have somewhat negative spin.
> 
> Why ARE COVID cases plummeting? New infections have fallen 45% in the US and 30% globally in the past 3 weeks but experts say vaccine is NOT the main driver because only 8% of Americans and 13% people worldwide have received their first dose
> 
> ...


A little rant....we live in CT. I have an office near home and another in NYC. I believe CT flagged VT back mid Nov as one of last no-go states with VT "spiking" and rolling 7 day at 100 cases (approx, please correct me) CT was around 1600.
My home town now has a rolling average of 15 cases.
CT has 7 day of around 1200 and VT at about 140.
I can travel freely in and out of NYC (or NJ/RI) without any restrictions but I dont. I could ride on a train, eat in a restaurant (now) and spend my day inside a 70 floor building but I haven't stepped foot in NYC since last March.
In order for my 4 children to return to school after having traveled to VT, stayed in our private residence, spent 48 hours in the cold, outside with masks on, we must either: Qtine for 14 days or provide a negative PCR test.
Selfishly we have taken our children out of school for Jan-March to distance learn so that we can enjoy the blessing of family winters in VT. Plus we do not want to run-afoul of either CT or Vt's rules.....we could stay silent and game the system but my moral compass says no. We even cancelled our annual Feb trip out West to do the right thing but I have to say, its getting a little lonely playing by the rules when the dog and I do an early AM parking lot walk and see all the NY/NJ/CT/MA day tripper plates knowing full well that less than 20% likely played by the rules to get here......I guess call me old fashion at 50.
But I'll point to DrJ's post that for months many of us speculated if the season would happen at all but .....here we are, near half way thru and I think "we'll make it" to the end. My kids will just likely end up having C averages this year.


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## abc (Feb 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> New infections have fallen 45% in the US


That's 45% down from the peak of Christmas!

It's kind of like Vail's running of Wildcat. By doing absolutely nothing in December, things got so bad people's expectatin hit rock bottom! Any improvement will be seen as a huge relieve!

The case number is about as high as November, right before Thanksgiving! It's still way higher than in September, when d people are socializing outside. But sure, compared to the worst of Christmas-New Year, it's a "significant improvement".

Or like old school store sales. First, mark all the prices up by 25%. Then run a 25% "sale"! People would say "Oh look! Huge sale, better hurry!"!

When and if the case number dropped to the level of summer, we'll be able to remove many of the restrictions and enjoy life a little closer to "normal". But 45% drop from Christmas isn't it.


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## drjeff (Feb 5, 2021)

abc said:


> That's 45% down from the peak of Christmas!
> 
> It's kind of like Vail's running of Wildcat. By doing absolutely nothing in December, things got so bad people's expectatin hit rock bottom! Any improvement will be seen as a huge relieve!
> 
> ...


I haven't been able to verify the accuracy of this or not, however I did hear a report that in the last few weeks, labs processing the PCR COVID-19 tests have decreased the number of times they amplify the testing sample from something like 50 times (basically amplifying the sample a trillion times before starting to look for COVID-19 virus particles) down to around 30 times (basically amplify the testing sample a couple of billion times before looking for COVID-19 particles), so that may account for some of the possible decreases.

I also heard a report that as of this week, there now have been more people who have received atleast their 1st vaccine dose (if not the 2nd dose as well) than have officially tested positive for COVID-19, so that covers about 50 million people, and if you believe the data that 3, to possibly 10 times as many people have had COVID-19, but were asymptomatic and never got tested, so if one wants to consider that, potential half of the country may very well have either natural or vaccine induced antibodies right now, which can also account for why the numbers are decreasing. 

Time will tell


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## abc (Feb 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> if you believe the data that 3, to possibly 10 times as many people have had COVID-19


I can believe in 3.

10 is most likely just wishful thinking!


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## drjeff (Feb 5, 2021)

abc said:


> I can believe in 3.
> 
> 10 is most likely just wishful thinking!


If you go with 3, that's still basically almost  third of the country with either natural or vaccine induced antibodies present. And that certainly is a substantial  number!


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## abc (Feb 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> If you go with 3, that's still basically almost  third of the country with either natural or vaccine induced antibodies present. And that certainly is a substantial  number!


I haven't looked at the numbers. But if 3 leads to 1/3 of the country have immunity, 10 would have us AT herd immunity already! 

But since we're still seeing fairly large numbers of cases, we're clearly NOT at herd immunity. Therefore, 10 can't possibly be. 

That said, it's pretty obvious there're tons of people who never got tested. So I think 3 has got to be resembling a somewhat realistic number. Maybe it's only 2. But either way, we'll reach herd immunity either through vaccination or infection by summer!


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## Los (Feb 9, 2021)

Jcb890 said:


> People like you are why we can't have nice things and why this ski season has almost 0 chance of going the distance.



Hey guy - just curious - does this ski season still have "almost 0 chance of going the distance" because of people that don't strictly adhere every millisecond to your nazi rules, or have you realized that your fear was completely overblown and unhinged? 

Hope you're having a great season!


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## abc (Feb 9, 2021)

Los said:


> Hey guy - just curious - does this ski season still have "almost 0 chance of going the distance" because of people that don't strictly adhere every millisecond to your nazi rules, or have you realized that your fear was completely overblown and unhinged?
> 
> Hope you're having a great season!


The season is “going the distance” because all the Vail mountain ARE having many Kens and Karens ENFORCING mask wearing! 

It’s like people saying “we ONLY have half a million death from Covid”. But that’s because the lockdown and the closing of indoor entertainment. Had we left all those open... but we won’t know, will we?

You saved the guy who doesn’t wear life jacket from drowning when his canoe flipped. And the next day he’s out on the water in a new canoe, still not wearing a life jacket! 

Darwin was wrong.


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## drjeff (Feb 9, 2021)

The  season is going the distance, because more than likely, regardless of the regulations/protocols in place in the various states, the actual act of skiing/riding is a low risk sport for transmission.  It may be just that simple.  Just like you're incredibly unlikely to hear about a super spreading event from say a bike/walking trail in an urban area that has hundreds of people on it on a nice weekend day. 

I understand why the "one size fits all" approach that each state has taken for what goes on within their geographic borders is used, however, if one objectively looks at things, and applies a bit of critical thinking, they could see that say that being inside of a packed bar for a while probably isn't a good idea transmission risk wise. Being outside , even in a long lift line that is moving, or being on a chairlift, that is moving with a few other people, doesn't appear to be a big deal for the overwhelming majority of the population.

The overwhelming amount of fear and gloom and doom that has been put forth around COVID for the vast majority of the population, is going to likely now become a major problem as things are starting to be able to head back to more of a "normal" way, as the psychological fear that some people have now is going to be a real issue. And that's an unfortunate thing


----------



## Hawk (Feb 9, 2021)

The thing that drives me nuts is the people that have to preach or point fingers or poke.  And I'm talking about both sides.  It really isn't our job on here to dole out judgement or point out people.  I mean if that is what makes you feel better, Jeeze.  People have to just deal with it and it will be over soon.  it all happened and we can't go back.  We can only go forward.  Some people were not affected and some have had really bad outcomes.   Safe to say, the ski industry did ok by following the state's guidelines.  That is what kept the season going.  Let's just get through this and maybe next year we can drink beer together.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 9, 2021)

2 great posts.  

I think I said this on KZone the other day. Unless you plan on making out with everyone in the parking lot spring skiing even with tailgating is likely a fairly safe activity.    keep in your bubble or keep some distance and all should be good.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 9, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The thing that drives me nuts is the people that have to preach or point fingers or poke.  And I'm talking about both sides.  It really isn't our job on here to dole out judgement or point out people.  I mean if that is what makes you feel better, Jeeze.  People have to just deal with it and it will be over soon.  it all happened and we can't go back.  We can only go forward.  Some people were not affected and some have had really bad outcomes.   Safe to say, the ski industry did ok by following the state's guidelines.  That is what kept the season going.  Let's just get through this and maybe next year we can drink beer together.



I agree...BUT...some people just don't see logic.  My favorite was a forum member telling us in mid November how VT was going to shut down and we weren't going to have a ski season....as dozens of ski areas across the country had been open for weeks and all the big northeast players were making snow and announcing opening dates.  I have no idea how you can argue that we won't be skiing as people are already skiing.  

Hopefully we're nearly done with this thread as the national covid numbers are FALLING FASTER than they rose when cases were exploding in November/December.  Also, I personally know more people who have been vaccinated than have had Covid.


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## Puck it (Feb 9, 2021)

I would like to suggest a book for some here.


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## Hawk (Feb 9, 2021)

It's funny you say that.  I know way more people who have had covid then have been vaccinated.  I also have 3 people in my family that are nurses.  Weekly we have the conversations about the work and it inevitably ends with, "do you remember (fill in the Name here),  they passed away this week".  I live in a very tight community and know lots of people because I have lived there my whole life so I guess my case is somewhat unique.  Things are very sad but I keep on going and do not live in fear because I use common sense, limit my interaction and just keep moving forward.  This has not stopped me from skiing.


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## cdskier (Feb 9, 2021)

I'm like Hawk...I know way more people who had covid than have been vaccinated as well. And also like Hawk it has not stopped me from skiing. Just be smart about what you do.


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## abc (Feb 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The overwhelming amount of fear and gloom and doom that has been put forth around COVID for the vast majority of the population, is going to likely now become a major problem as things are starting to be able to head back to more of a "normal" way, as the psychological fear that some people have now is going to be a real issue. And that's an unfortunate thing


Fear goes up with incident rate of hospitalization and death!

At the beginning of the pandemic early last year, New York Chinatown had turned into ghost towns. (though as a side effect, infection by race had Asians at the very bottom, lower than even whites). Now, Chinatown has come back quite a bit. It's even difficult to find parking the last time I went by.

The fear will evaporate for those who got vaccinated. And if the number of serious outbreaks drops significantly, fear will go away for most.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The thing that drives me nuts is the people that have to preach or point fingers or poke.  And I'm talking about both sides.  It really isn't our job on here to dole out judgement or point out people.  I mean if that is what makes you feel better, Jeeze.  People have to just deal with it and it will be over soon.  it all happened and we can't go back.  We can only go forward.  Some people were not affected and some have had really bad outcomes.   Safe to say, the ski industry did ok by following the state's guidelines.  That is what kept the season going.  Let's just get through this and maybe next year we can drink beer together.


Well, the reason people point, and poke is, someone else's non-compliance effects everyone in the community.

If someone is not masked, and breathing down your neck in a line at the store, that effects you, not them.  You are justified in tell them to back up and put a mask on so you don't get COVID.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 10, 2021)

abc said:


> For once, this particular vaccine, the uptake percentage are just adults making decisions for themselves, as kids are not included anyway.
> 
> So, any adult choose not to get vaccinated, they're not putting anyone else but themselves at risk. In this free society, I fully support their rights not to get vaccinated. That would speed up the vaccination of those in the lower priority group who wish to be vaccinated.


Not quite true.

If enough people don't get vaccinated and the Cornonavirus remains in our population, there are chances it mutates again into a vaccine resistant strain.  There is some concern already that the SA variant is resistant to what we have.


----------



## Hawk (Feb 10, 2021)

I understand that fully tnt.  I just keep my distance and fend people like that off.  But shouting at the world on the message board makes no sense.  It will make zero difference.  I guess it might make people fell better to vent.  I can understand that.  Actually it is the other side that is more frustrating.  The people that are in complete and utter denial that go on the attack that is more frustrating.  I guess if you live in circles that have not been affected then this whole thing seems silly and you get more frustrated and feel you must lash out.  But until someone you know dies or worse, you cause that death, you will never really understand the collateral damage of being totally complacent. Like I said both sides screaming at each other serves no purpose except to vent.  NO one is convicting anybody of anything on here.  That is for sure.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 10, 2021)




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## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Not quite true.
> 
> If enough people don't get vaccinated and the Cornonavirus remains in our population, there are chances it mutates again into a vaccine resistant strain.  There is some concern already that the SA variant is resistant to what we have.


Exactly, Now we're hearing of an "LA Variant"....  There will be others in due time.
California Has Its Own Coronavirus Variant, Researchers Reveal | HuffPost

Get used to getting a Covid Vacc annually


----------



## JimG. (Feb 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The thing that drives me nuts is the people that have to preach or point fingers or poke.  And I'm talking about both sides.  It really isn't our job on here to dole out judgement or point out people.  I mean if that is what makes you feel better, Jeeze.  People have to just deal with it and it will be over soon.  it all happened and we can't go back.  We can only go forward.  Some people were not affected and some have had really bad outcomes.   Safe to say, the ski industry did ok by following the state's guidelines.  That is what kept the season going.  Let's just get through this and maybe next year we can drink beer together.


Wow totally agree Hawk. Tired of the preachers on both sides.


----------



## Hawk (Feb 10, 2021)

I have seen Dr. Bailey's YouTube before.   There are lots of things to dispute with her analysis.  I am not going down this rabbit hole today.  I personally think that there are some issues with testing and the counts of who is sick, resistant, recovered, dead from the disease are off.  Sure, that is plausible and any intelligent person would question that.  But I personally have seen the uptick in deaths and know people that have died.  Talk to any ER person or nurse.  I am not going to argue that people have died from a new virus strain.  They have and at a higher rate then the regular flew.  So to protect my mom, I am going to grin and bear it and wait it out using common sense practices.  This really has not changed my life that much but I am lucky.  So to the people that say you don't care about the people loosing jobs, money, business and that I am selfish, I say I do care.  It is really bad.  But I also say that if we did nothing like many think we should have done, and the death toll was even worse, then which form or selfish is better.  Tough call.  for me at least.


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## 180 (Feb 10, 2021)

Well I can tell you that Superstar now has 20' mounds the whole way......


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## tnt1234 (Feb 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I understand that fully tnt.  I just keep my distance and fend people like that off.  But shouting at the world on the message board makes no sense.  It will make zero difference.  I guess it might make people fell better to vent.  I can understand that.  Actually it is the other side that is more frustrating.  The people that are in complete and utter denial that go on the attack that is more frustrating.  I guess if you live in circles that have not been affected then this whole thing seems silly and you get more frustrated and feel you must lash out.  But until someone you know dies or worse, you cause that death, you will never really understand the collateral damage of being totally complacent. Like I said both sides screaming at each other serves no purpose except to vent.  NO one is convicting anybody of anything on here.  That is for sure.


Yeah, so true.

I participate in some other message boards that have midwestern members.  When the pandemic started, you couldn't convince them for al the money in the world that they should learn from we folks on the coasts ad take this seriously....then they blew up this winter...

Frustrating.


----------



## abc (Feb 10, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Exactly, Now we're hearing of an "LA Variant"....  There will be others in due time.
> California Has Its Own Coronavirus Variant, Researchers Reveal | HuffPost
> 
> Get used to getting a Covid Vacc annually


That's nothing new to "get used to". Flu vaccine is an annual vaccine. 

Plenty of people don't take it. I don't have a problem with that.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I have seen Dr. Bailey's YouTube before.   There are lots of things to dispute with her analysis.  I am not going down this rabbit hole today.  I personally think that there are some issues with testing and the counts of who is sick, resistant, recovered, dead from the disease are off.  Sure, that is plausible and any intelligent person would question that.  But I personally have seen the uptick in deaths and know people that have died.  Talk to any ER person or nurse.  I am not going to argue that people have died from a new virus strain.  They have and at a higher rate then the regular flew.  So to protect my mom, I am going to grin and bear it and wait it out using common sense practices.  This really has not changed my life that much but I am lucky.  So to the people that say you don't care about the people loosing jobs, money, business and that I am selfish, I say I do care.  It is really bad.  But I also say that if we did nothing like many think we should have done, and the death toll was even worse, then which form or selfish is better.  Tough call.  for me at least.


One point that can not be denied is the Ct of the PCR test.  They have just lowered from 50 to 30.  That is still a replication of the sample of 2^30th.  could this be why cases have dropped so suddenly?  Hmmmm.  Casedemic.


----------



## abc (Feb 10, 2021)

Hawk said:


> So to the people that say you don't care about the people loosing jobs, money, business and that I am selfish, I say I do care. It is really bad. But I also say that if we did nothing like many think we should have done, and the death toll was even worse, then which form or selfish is better. Tough call. for me at least.


We're the world's richest country and we can't afford to curtail some of our economic activities to save a lot of lives? That's kind of weird. 

I grew up in a poor country. I saw people who risked their life, never mind health, to eek out a living. I thought I escaped that kind of environment settling here. So to hear people arguing about having to "accept" the death toll as "normal"? That makes me really sad. 

I don't support every bits of the restrictions. Some of them just don't make sense. But to say if we don't open everything back up is because we don't care about people losing jobs, that's cheap. 

Anyway, the debate is going to lose much of the relevancy. Vaccine will be in the arms of people who want it by summer, new strain or not. Things WILL open up. We shall see. 



tnt1234 said:


> If enough people don't get vaccinated and the Cornonavirus remains in our population, there are chances it mutates again into a vaccine resistant strain. There is some concern already that the SA variant is resistant to what we have.


We don't have any hope on that one. Even if the US vaccinates everyone who is eligible, there're still billions in the rest of the world for the virus to grow and mutate. 

We are looking at a constant update of vaccines like flu for many years to come.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2021)

180 said:


> Well I can tell you that Superstar now has 20' mounds the whole way......



Not June 1 depth at the moment but certainly mid-May!  Still blowing though...who knows.


----------



## urungus (Feb 10, 2021)

Fully vaccinated people don't need to quarantine if exposed to Covid, CDC says
					

Other recommendations to slow the spread of the coronavirus, like wearing masks and social distancing, still apply.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




I wonder if vaccinated people will get exempted from quarantine after crossing state lines


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2021)

urungus said:


> Fully vaccinated people don't need to quarantine if exposed to Covid, CDC says
> 
> 
> Other recommendations to slow the spread of the coronavirus, like wearing masks and social distancing, still apply.
> ...


I believe NH says that is indeed the case.  I bet the neighboring small state that prides itself on "following the science" will not...but I'd love to be wrong.   

I saw for colleges in CT they require weekly covid testing...even if you have been vaccinated.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Yeah, so true.
> 
> I participate in some other message boards that have midwestern members.  When the pandemic started, you couldn't convince them for al the money in the world that they should learn from we folks on the coasts ad take this seriously....then they blew up this winter...
> 
> Frustrating.





urungus said:


> Fully vaccinated people don't need to quarantine if exposed to Covid, CDC says
> 
> 
> Other recommendations to slow the spread of the coronavirus, like wearing masks and social distancing, still apply.
> ...


YES - NH has already waived the quarantine requirement for people who have been fully vaccinated. It is effective 15 days after 2nd dose


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I believe NH says that is indeed the case.  I bet the neighboring small state that prides itself on "following the science" will not...but I'd love to be wrong.
> 
> I saw for colleges in CT they require weekly covid testing...even if you have been vaccinated.


I think there is still some uncertainty regarding your ability to transmit the virus after vaccination.  IOW, you are vaccinated.  You still might be able to contract and transmit Covid.  But you just won't get very sick because you have developed the antibodies to keep the infection at bay.

But I'm not certain about this.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 11, 2021)

Oh  that article above clarifies it - since you are unlikely to develop symptoms, you are unlikely to spread it....cool!


----------



## zoomzoom (Feb 11, 2021)

one in twenty can still get covid after vaccination, how long the vaccination offers some protection is unknown, and a reduction transmission rate is unknown but hoped for.  vt has the lowest per capita rate of cases during this pandemic and will continue to be the case as the gov and dr levine follow the science.  testing is free and easily available, typically an appointment can be had in a day or two.  when i'm out and about i see 100% mask usage and physical distancing is the norm.  have completed my vaxx protocol and will continue my safe practices until the numbers show otherwise.  

all this under a republican gov who hasn't politicized the virus.  easy-peasy.  

we haven't been out to dinner in over a year, and the snowshoes and crampons are getting quite a bit of use.




https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...keeps-cases-lowest-in-u-s-throughout-pandemic


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> one in twenty can still get covid after vaccination, how long the vaccination offers some protection is unknown, and a reduction transmission rate is unknown but hoped for.  vt has the lowest per capita rate of cases during this pandemic and will continue to be the case as the gov and dr levine follow the science.  testing is free and easily available, typically an appointment can be had in a day or two.  when i'm out and about i see 100% mask usage and physical distancing is the norm.  have completed my vaxx protocol and will continue my safe practices until the numbers show otherwise.
> 
> all this under a republican gov who hasn't politicized the virus.  easy-peasy.
> 
> ...



So, since 1 in 20 can get the virus post vaccine (or with some vaccines, say 1 in 3), how long do we keep things restricted for? 

Since the reality is that in 20 years, COVID 19 will still be around in the population and there will be a small number of people passing away from it still. Just like is the case with the H1N1 virus that made its way across the world around a decade or so ago. 

Heck, if you want to look at the "common flu" and it's mortality rates, the common flu is more lethal to the very young than COVID 19 is (similar in the elderly population), so do we now start shutting down society when the common flu likely returns in a year or 2 when the travel that spreads is begins again?


----------



## Puck it (Feb 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> So, since 1 in 20 can get the virus post vaccine (or with some vaccines, say 1 in 3), how long do we keep things restricted for?
> 
> Since the reality is that in 20 years, COVID 19 will still be around in the population and there will be a small number of people passing away from it still. Just like is the case with the H1N1 virus that made its way across the world around a decade or so ago.
> 
> Heck, if you want to look at the "common flu" and it's mortality rates, the common flu is more lethal to the very young than COVID 19 is (similar in the elderly population), so do we now start shutting down society when the common flu likely returns in a year or 2 when the travel that spreads is begins again?


Good post.  But the armchair virologists will no doubt have a reason to. Wait for it.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> So, since 1 in 20 can get the virus post vaccine (or with some vaccines, say 1 in 3), how long do we keep things restricted for?
> 
> Since the reality is that in 20 years, COVID 19 will still be around in the population and there will be a small number of people passing away from it still. Just like is the case with the H1N1 virus that made its way across the world around a decade or so ago.
> 
> Heck, if you want to look at the "common flu" and it's mortality rates, the common flu is more lethal to the very young than COVID 19 is (similar in the elderly population), so do we now start shutting down society when the common flu likely returns in a year or 2 when the travel that spreads is begins again?



1000% agree again Dr. Jeff.  We have to stop restrictions and get back to normal at some point, and live with the fact that this thing will never go away.  The vaccines are 95% effective...either we live with that risk or wear masks and socially distance forever.  

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I do believe there are some people in the media, government, and business that want this to go one forever.  The media wants bold, scary headlines so they get clicks.  There's a few politicians who want to be the first to report zero Covid cases in their jurisdiction, no matter the consequences.  And if I made N95 masks or was a Zoom executive you can damn sure bet I'd be lobbying a few congressmen/governors to keep things shutdown and restrictions in place.  And I think there is a small percentage of the population so scared of Covid they're going to live like this for years- even if we get to a point where there's a single-digit number of new cases a day....which there probably will be for the indefinite future once Covid is "defeated" in a rational person's eyes.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> 1000% agree again Dr. Jeff.  We have to stop restrictions and get back to normal at some point, and live with the fact that this thing will never go away.  The vaccines are 95% effective...either we live with that risk or wear masks and socially distance forever.
> 
> I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I do believe there are some people in the media, government, and business that want this to go one forever.  The media wants bold, scary headlines so they get clicks.  There's a few politicians who want to be the first to report zero Covid cases in their jurisdiction, no matter the consequences.  And if I made N95 masks or was a Zoom executive you can damn sure bet I'd be lobbying a few congressmen/governors to keep things shutdown and restrictions in place.  And I think there is a small percentage of the population so scared of Covid they're going to live like this for years- even if we get to a point where there's a single-digit number of new cases a day....which there probably will be for the indefinite future once Covid is "defeated" in a rational person's eyes.


Now you are making sense.  We can't have that.  Follow the science, which is not always exact.


----------



## kbroderick (Feb 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> So, since 1 in 20 can get the virus post vaccine (or with some vaccines, say 1 in 3), how long do we keep things restricted for?
> 
> Since the reality is that in 20 years, COVID 19 will still be around in the population and there will be a small number of people passing away from it still. Just like is the case with the H1N1 virus that made its way across the world around a decade or so ago.
> 
> Heck, if you want to look at the "common flu" and it's mortality rates, the common flu is more lethal to the very young than COVID 19 is (similar in the elderly population), so do we now start shutting down society when the common flu likely returns in a year or 2 when the travel that spreads is begins again?


I'd suggest that "until everyone who wants to get vaccinated can" is a reasonable point to maintain other mitigation measures, until or unless we learn otherwise from analysis between now and then.

None of the mitigation measures used during the pandemic (with the possible exception of a full, military-enforced lockdown) are completely effective. Given that, we're layering multiple, somewhat-effective measures on top of each other to get a greater combined effectiveness. And yes, we're unlikely to ever eliminate the virus from circulation, but if we can reduce its ability to spread enough, we can reduce the risk involved in personal contact, even without masks and social distancing.

My *guess* is that by late fall, the combination of vaccinations and reduced spread due to more outdoor activities over the summer will reduce the risk of going back to normal to a level most folks find acceptable. As with certain other diseases (e.g. measles), I wouldn't be shocked if the occasional outbreak resulted in localized business closings and possibly public-health-related restrictions in the future.


----------



## urungus (Feb 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> YES - NH has already waived the quarantine requirement for people who have been fully vaccinated. It is effective 15 days after 2nd dose



Cool, but at this point Massachusetts still requires quarantining for 14 days after returning.  Still there is light at the end of the tunnel...


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2021)

urungus said:


> Cool, but at this point Massachusetts still requires quarantining for 14 days after returning.  Still there is light at the end of the tunnel...


Doesn’t stop the thousands of people from Mass I see everyday driving up 93.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

urungus said:


> Cool, but at this point Massachusetts still requires quarantining for 14 days after returning.  Still there is light at the end of the tunnel...


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> So, since 1 in 20 can get the virus post vaccine (or with some vaccines, say 1 in 3), how long do we keep things restricted for?


Flu vaccine is only 60% effective. So my guess is when 60% of the population gets the OPPORTUNITY of vaccination, we'll lift the restriction?

Alternatively, we "open up" when the daily hospitalization rate of Covid is at the same level as flu? (and have localized lock down and/or quarantine when an outbreak happens in one area)


----------



## Edd (Feb 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn’t stop the thousands of people from Mass I see everyday driving up 93.


Any given midweek day at Gunstock or Wildcat I see as many Mass plates as NH. Some days Mass is the predominant plate.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

So CDC has just Updated their position;

NO Quarantine necessary for those exposed to Covid AFTER being "fully Vaccinated".  Fully means 15 days after 2nd dose.

CDC: Fully vaccinated people don't need to quarantine if exposed to Covid (nbcnews.com)


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> So CDC has just Updated their position;
> 
> NO Quarantine necessary for those exposed to Covis AFTER being "fully Vaccinated".  Fully means 15 days after 2nd dose.
> 
> CDC: Fully vaccinated people don't need to quarantine if exposed to Covid (nbcnews.com)



Now we all just have to remember that state guidance may not always follow what the CDC guidance says..... Since that state science must be better than the CDC's science even though they all say to follow the science...


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

I remember when VT spent the $$$ to put up hundreds of the permanent quarantine signs and I got tonnnnnns of crap for saying this...but I still believe they're making a statement and plan to require a quarantine for a long, long time.  Like after the rest of the world has gone "back to normal".


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I remember when VT spent the $$$ to put up hundreds of the permanent quarantine signs and I got tonnnnnns of crap for saying this...but I still believe they're making a statement and plan to require a quarantine for a long, long time.  Like after the rest of the world has gone "back to normal".



That may be the case for many people and crowding events as well.


----------



## zoomzoom (Feb 11, 2021)

wow, so many snarky comments from a "dr", your unprofessionalism is telling.  time for you to review and start complying with the "Medical Code of Ethics", specifically Section 8.12


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That may be the case for many people and crowding events as well.





dblskifanatic said:


> That may be the case for many people and crowding events as well.


Sporting arenas and concerts are starting to require a Neg Test OR proof of Vacc.
Same w/ International Travel and as we know, Domestic air travel is now in consideration.

 VT "Permanent" Quarantine Signs was a HUGE WASTE OF TAX PAYER $$$$$$$$.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 11, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> wow, so many snarky comments from a "dr", your unprofessionalism is telling.  time for you to review and start complying with the "Medical Code of Ethics", specifically Section 8.12


That was uncalled for.  Doctor's can have differing points of view just like all of the armchair epidemiologists.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Sporting arenas and concerts are starting to require a Neg Test OR proof of Vacc.
> Same w/ International Travel and as we know, Domestic air travel is now in consideration.
> 
> VT "Permanent" Quarantine Signs was a HUGE WASTE OF TAX PAYER $$$$$$$$.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

Puck it said:


> That was uncalled for.  Doctor's can have differing points of view just like all of the armchair epidemiologists.


Exactly - Example would be Trump's crony,  Dr Scott Atlas,  AKA Dr Go Out and Get Covid. 
   Don't think he was considering his Hippocratic Oath


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> wow, so many snarky comments from a "dr", your unprofessionalism is telling.  time for you to review and start complying with the "Medical Code of Ethics", specifically Section 8.12



He's always been very respectful in his views.  What's more disturbing, imo, is that fact that you're the second person on this forum to question/doubt/reduce his "doctor" status.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2021)

oompaloompa said:


> wow, so many snarky comments from a "dr", your unprofessionalism is telling.  time for you to review and start complying with the "Medical Code of Ethics", specifically Section 8.12


Just curious as to what you felt was "snarky"? 

I was questioning what the end point will be? 

I was bringing up the simple fact that COVID 19 as a virus will be around for decades to come, just as other past novel Corona Viruses, such as H1N1 have been. 

I was bringing up that the common flu, has a higher mortality rate in the young than COVID 19 does, and that both the common flu and COVID 19 have similar mortality rates in the elderly, and what will happen when the common flu likely returns once the widespread travel that spreads the flu annually between the hemispheres returns.

I was stating that the CDC guidance and state guidance aren't always in alignment, which makes one (logically) wonder why the states don't follow what the CDC says, since the CDC is supposed to be the leading voice on disease control in the country.  

Is that snarky? Doesn't seem like it to me, which is why I am curious as to what you found snarky?


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I remember when VT spent the $$$ to put up hundreds of the permanent quarantine signs and I got tonnnnnns of crap for saying this...but I still believe they're making a statement and plan to require a quarantine for a long, long time.  Like after the rest of the world has gone "back to normal".



I keep having conversations with people about how "Vermont won't kill its tourist industry" and I keep thinking "I'm not so sure". I think more than 50% of voters in VT would prefer to keep more people out indefinitely, and if this is a way to do that then fine. I doubt they've really thought through the economic consequences but since when have people ever been rational.


----------



## Keelhauled (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I remember when VT spent the $$$ to put up hundreds of the permanent quarantine signs and I got tonnnnnns of crap for saying this...but I still believe they're making a statement and plan to require a quarantine for a long, long time.  Like after the rest of the world has gone "back to normal".


You're right, aluminum signs are definitely permanent.  That's why every single orange road construction sign ever erected is still standing.  Yesterday I got lost on the way to work because all the old detour signs sent me four towns away.  If only someone were to someday invent the technology to remove bolts...


----------



## Zand (Feb 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> Any given midweek day at Gunstock or Wildcat I see as many Mass plates as NH. Some days Mass is the predominant plate.


As I've said, I follow the rules for states like VT and ME because they're smaller and have fewer hospital beds, so I understand why they would want to limit the influx of people into the state.

But MA can go f*ck itself and its travel forms and quarantine rules. If I go to NH and ski and come back, I have way less of a chance of having caught COVID than if I go to the local grocery store or Walmart. 

When I'm in NH (which has been frequent this winter), I keep to myself. I stay out of restaurants and really only leave my car to get gas and to ski, and for food its been drive thru or takeout only. But as far as travel goes, they get it with their rules. As does NY. And NJ. And CT. But MA has been and continues to be overly locked down (which has done jack shit as far as cases and deaths go, and we're totally f*cking up the vaccine distribution on top of it) and I'm glad I'm probably within a year or two of moving the hell out of here. Maybe if I move away I'll be able to get the vaccine before 2024 like this state is on pace for. 

End of rant.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2021)

Zand said:


> As I've said, I follow the rules for states like VT and ME because they're smaller and have fewer hospital beds, so I understand why they would want to limit the influx of people into the state.
> 
> But MA can go f*ck itself and its travel forms and quarantine rules. If I go to NH and ski and come back, I have way less of a chance of having caught COVID than if I go to the local grocery store or Walmart.
> 
> ...


Like a cafeteria catholic pick and choose which rules to follow.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

Keelhauled said:


> You're right, aluminum signs are definitely permanent.  That's why every single orange road construction sign ever erected is still standing.  Yesterday I got lost on the way to work because all the old detour signs sent me four towns away.  If only someone were to someday invent the technology to remove bolts...



I do like your sarcasm, it is genuinely funny, even at my expense.

No other state (that I know of) has felt the need to do this.  They wouldn't of done it if they weren't expecting to keep them up for a while, in my opinion.  I don't get the construction zone argument.  That's a localized area with state highway workers already on the site.  How many man hours of unionized highway workers did it take to set up hundreds of signs all across the state?


----------



## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I do like your sarcasm, it is genuinely funny, even at my expense.
> 
> No other state (that I know of) has felt the need to do this.  They wouldn't of done it if they weren't expecting to keep them up for a while, in my opinion.  I don't get the construction zone argument.  That's a localized area with state highway workers already on the site.  How many man hours of unionized highway workers did it take to set up hundreds of signs all across the state?



VT's argument related to costs was it was cheaper to install those than it was to continue to utilize the portable electronic signs they were previously using for that purpose. If true, then that's fine and makes sense to me. If the sign installation was done by existing staff during regular working hours and didn't utilize OT, then there really was minimal labor cost to put them up.

As for other states, some other states (like NJ and NY) have a LOT of "permanent" electronic signs on their major roads that they ARE (or at least were when I was last in them) using to remind people about COVID rules and restrictions. So there was no need for those states to put up other metal signs since they could just use the existing electronic signs for that purpose.


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> common flu, has a higher mortality rate in the young than COVID 19 does, and that both the common flu and COVID 19 have similar mortality rates in the elderly,


Where do you find the numbers of flu for different age groups?


----------



## Edd (Feb 11, 2021)

No Governors are asking for my opinion but, after everyone 50+ is vaccinated and hospitals have cases well under control, I’d like to see a given state drop restrictions on public places that you don’t HAVE to go to, like restaurants or ski areas. Grocery stores and pharmacies keep restrictions a bit longer perhaps.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I keep having conversations with people about how "Vermont won't kill its tourist industry" and I keep thinking "I'm not so sure". I think more than 50% of voters in VT would prefer to keep more people out indefinitely, and if this is a way to do that then fine. I doubt they've really thought through the economic consequences but since when have people ever been rational.


Being up here in VT for the past month now, I'm really wondering just how many people are actually staying away due to the rules. My condo parking lot fills up every weekend. Perhaps lodges are seeing a big impact though. I don't have an easy way to judge that. And it certainly isn't like the ski resorts are empty on the weekends...


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2021)

abc said:


> Where do you find the numbers of flu for different age groups?


Plenty of data on the CDC's website about flu mortality in the young.

Short version, while still not a massive number, it's far higher than the mortality rate for COVID in the young, especially elementary school aged and younger


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Being up here in VT for the past month now, I'm really wondering just how many people are actually staying away due to the rules. My condo parking lot fills up every weekend. Perhaps lodges are seeing a big impact though. I don't have an easy way to judge that. And it certainly isn't like the ski resorts are empty on the weekends...


Yeah, I keep wondering that too. I suspect that lodging is being dinged majorly. Meanwhile, I'm beating myself up for missing such a great season. Maybe it's an artificial distinction -- I won't follow the restrictions (well, i follow the spirit but not the letter), but I can't bring myself to lie on a form.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

Here's a new Heads Up - NY & MA both looked at EZ Pass transactions.

Thank God that they can't prove who was in the vechicle.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Here's a new Heads Up - NY & MA both looked at EZ Pass transactions.
> 
> Thank God that they can't prove who was in the vechicle.


I don't think that's true, unless things changed. ‘We don’t have the capacity, nor should we be enforcing this'; Officials question how Mass. travel order, fines will be carried out


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 11, 2021)

It's true that they did indeed TRY to make it work.
    MA went as far a having their attorneys look in to it. 
Came down to NOT being able to prove occupancy of said vehicle.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

Ikon/Epic COULD also track visitor locations and penalize those who go to/from VT and then an outside state...but they don't.  Should they?  Paging the peanut gallery...


----------



## tumbler (Feb 11, 2021)

So not trying to be political but wondering if the administrations were different last February/March, do you think there would have been more of a federal plan instead of leaving it up to the individual states to make their own rules?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> So not trying to be political but wondering if the administrations were different last February/March, do you think there would have been more of a federal plan instead of leaving it up to the individual states to make their own rules?



yes.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> So not trying to be political but wondering if the administrations were different last February/March, do you think there would have been more of a federal plan instead of leaving it up to the individual states to make their own rules?


Initially, no.

Quite simply put, the virus originated in this Country in very localized geographic areas.

Likely no way that an entire country wide plan from day 1, could of been tolerated by the public at large as well as the various government leaders trying to sell/justify their calls for shutdowns.

Even now, it's not affecting the entire country in a uniform way, and given the population size and vast geographic area this Country has, honestly not sure that a "one size fits all" approach ever could of been used, let alone sold on the public in a way that wouldn't of generated sizable push back by probably 10's of millions of people


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 11, 2021)

the federal govt completely washed their hands of the problem and pushed it on the states with no funding or coordination, causing them to competitively bid over the same resources. it was an embarrassing response. stop excusing it.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> It's true that they did indeed TRY to make it work.
> MA went as far a having their attorneys look in to it.
> Came down to NOT being able to prove occupancy of said vehicle.


I remember when they first set up the EZPass system one of the conditions was that states wouldn't be allowed to use the data for issuing speeding tickets, possibly for this very reason.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the federal govt completely washed their hands of the problem and pushed it on the states with no funding or coordination, causing them to competitively bid over the same resources. it was an embarrassing response. stop excusing it.



There's what....150ish countries in the world?  I can only think of a half dozen that didn't completely botch their response at some point.  

I'm just happy we're skiing.  They're not in many European countries.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> So not trying to be political but wondering if the administrations were different last February/March, do you think there would have been more of a federal plan instead of leaving it up to the individual states to make their own rules?


No. I think my opinions are surprisingly similar to drjeff's on this one...

I do think there are things that could have (and should have) been done differently. But I'm not convinced at all that the outcome would have been much different no matter what.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> There's what....150ish countries in the world?  I can only think of a half dozen that didn't completely botch their response at some point.
> 
> I'm just happy we're skiing.  They're not in many European countries.



yea but we're america and we're supposed to be 'exceptional' or so said my 10th grade history teacher

agreed that skiing is a blessing right now. as close as Ontario that blessing is verboten, tho i think i read they are opening soon


----------



## Edd (Feb 11, 2021)

I’d go mad if not for skiing right now. I’d have to start a fight club or something.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

cdskier said:


> No. I think my opinions are surprisingly similar to drjeff's on this one...
> 
> I do think there are things that could have (and should have) been done differently. But I'm not convinced at all that the outcome would have been much different no matter what.



Ditto on that.  This is something no one could have imagined.  I, and 98% of the population did not take this pandemic seriously til March.  Any restrictions would have been laughed at/ignored/questioned as to why.  And red or blue or purple I doubt the prevailing political party in the White House could've had much control over the progress of this disease.  Unless you're New Zealand, it just has to run its course.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d go mad if not for skiing right now. I’d have to start a fight club or something.



I'm with you there.  I have no idea what I'd be doing if I was in one of those European countries that's been under heavy restrictions for 11 months now.

It's just in our blood that we value personal freedom and accept taking personal risks.  They just don't have the same mentality in Europe or the Asian countries.  We are a nation of individuals, they are nations of like-minded groups.  This isn't good/bad...just different.  And it's engrained in our societal views/ideas.  Our Democratic party is not half as liberal as the liberal parties over in Europe.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d go mad if not for skiing right now. I’d have to start a fight club or something.


Agreed. My one cousin that I talk to a lot pointed out recently how much my tone and mood has changed since I started skiing. I'd very much be going crazy right now if it wasn't for skiing...


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2021)

tumbler said:


> So not trying to be political but wondering if the administrations were different last February/March, do you think there would have been more of a federal plan instead of leaving it up to the individual states to make their own rules?


Yes and no. 

Personally, I think the federal government should coordinate and offer guidance (like, not contradicting CDC). But specific rules and enforcement should definitely be left to local government. I mean, not just at the state level but at county or city level. With support from states and federal government.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d go mad if not for skiing right now. I’d have to start a fight club or something.


So your last name is Norton


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 11, 2021)

coordinating supplies, harnessing the defense production act, and promoting consistent best practices without actively undermining them, would have made a significant difference.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> coordinating supplies, harnessing the defense production act, and promoting consistent best practices without actively undermining them, would have made a significant difference.



I think “significant“ is, at best, an overstatement.  One reason is that infection rates in states that did a good job with those things aren’t much different than in states that did worse.  Five of the top six states for per capita deaths are solidly blue states whose Governors took COVID extremely seriously.  The Governor of one of those states mandated that infected people be shoved into nursing homes, has the second highest per capita death rate in the country, covered up nursing home deaths, and had the hubris to write a book on how well he handled the crisis.  It’s hard to blame a President for stupidity like that even if the Presidential response could have been better.  At a minimum, I’d put my partisanship aside and recognize that neither side has a perfect track record.


----------



## abc (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s hard to blame a President for stupidity like that even if the Presidential response could have been better. At a minimum, I’d put my partisanship aside and recognize that neither side has a perfect track record.


Heck, even many European countries didn't do much better. So I'm not entirely sure the stupidity of the former President had really hurt the situation all that much.  

Reality is, we didn't know how to handle it last spring. We were groping in the dark. So stupidity and rationality worked just about as poorly. 

About the only thing that is really different, is contradicting the scientists don't inspire confidence. And confidence is the main thing that makes the situation "significantly" better or worse.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

The great Cuomo coverup is starting to unravel:








						Cuomo administration ‘froze’ over nursing home COVID-19 data requests
					

The new figures come as the Cuomo administration has been forced in recent weeks to acknowledge it has been underreporting the overall number of COVID-19 deaths among long-term care residents.




					www.wcax.com
				




I wonder how those book sales are going?


----------



## gittist (Feb 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the federal govt completely washed their hands of the problem and pushed it on the states with no funding or coordination, causing them to competitively bid over the same resources. it was an embarrassing response. stop excusing it.


Federalism vs. States Rights (and responsibilities). 
"Amendment X​The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

So unless someone can show that the states surrendered their health and welfare powers to the federal government, the ultimate responsibility lies with each state.   That's not to say the federal government can't or shouldn't help but ultimately it's up to the states.  Why does President Biden's executive mask order only apply to federal property?  It's because he doesn't have the power to mandate where the state's rights (and responsibilities) are supreme.

So if you're not happy with what's happening in your state, look no further than to your Governor and legislature.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 12, 2021)

did i ever say anything about federal mandates? i said providing funding, coordinating supplies, harnessing the defense production act, and modeling best practices instead of undermining them. all well within the federal government's purview.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> did i ever say anything about federal mandates? i said providing funding, coordinating supplies, harnessing the defense production act, and modeling best practices instead of undermining them. all well within the federal government's purview.



The feds:
1) Provided funding to the states;
2) Coordinated the delivery of supplies; and
3) Harnessed Defense Production Act.

You can argue scope, but all of those things were done.

I agree with you that they did not always model best practices - but neither did Cuomo when he shoved 9,000 sick people into nursing homes and then tried to cover up the fallout.  And neither did Gavin Newsom when he went to a party at the French Laundry restaurant.  Neither did Lori Lightfoot when she celebrated on the streets without a mask after Biden was elected.  Neither did Denver Mayor Michael Hancock when he flew from Colorado to Mississippi for Thanksgiving - despite telling his constituents not to travel.

This is why I don't see why either side feels entitled to the high road.


----------



## abc (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> 2) Coordinated the delivery of supplies


Coordinated???

The Fed was bidding AGAINST the states in purchasing ventilators and masks last March at the start of the pandemic!


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

abc said:


> Coordinated???
> 
> The Fed was bidding AGAINST the states in purchasing ventilators and masks last March at the start of the pandemic.



I hate being put in the position of defending Trump, by it makes perfect sense that the Feds would prioritize purchasing ventilators over the states.  This is because the Federal Government is in a unique position to distribute those ventilators to the areas that need them the most.  There was no way that the states were going to share nicely among themselves.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The feds:
> 1) Provided funding to the states;
> 2) Coordinated the delivery of supplies; and
> 3) Harnessed Defense Production Act.
> ...



1) not even close to enough, and intentionally shafted local and state govts in covid relief even tho they bore the brunt of the expenses and loss of tax revenue. 'blue state bailouts' is such a ridiculous stance. cities hurt in all 50 states. 

2) poorly, and what abc said

3) again, poorly and not to the extent that was pretty clearly required


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

I already said that you can argue scope.  For example, we can debate how many trillions to the states from the Feds is enough.  We can debate whether the DPA would have gotten PPE out faster than market forces would have anyway.

But you originally inferred that nothing whatsoever was done - which is patently false.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 12, 2021)

ya ya thats why i kept 'you can argue scope' in the quote. 

anyway, whatever, it seems we'll all be able to get vaccinated by late spring and maybe this shit will be over soon.


----------



## abc (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> I hate being put in the position of defending Trump, by it makes perfect sense that the Feds would prioritize purchasing ventilators over the states.  This is because the Federal Government is in a unique position to distribute those ventilators to the areas that need them the most.  There was no way that the states were going to share nicely among themselves.


*IF* the fed was making the purchase and distributing to the states, the least it should do is to "coordinate" with the state by telling them to expect it coming from the fed and NOT bid against it!

Instead, the fed is telling states they're on their own! So they went out to buy PPE and ventilators, only to find themselves bidding against the fed!

That's good coordination?


----------



## NYDB (Feb 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> did i ever say anything about federal mandates? i said providing funding, coordinating supplies, harnessing the defense production act, and modeling best practices instead of undermining them. all well within the federal government's purview.


He put Jared in charge of that because if his years of experience coordinating large scale govern....wait I'll come in again.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 12, 2021)

abc said:


> *IF* the fed was making the purchase and distributing to the states, the least it should do is to "coordinate" with the state by telling them to expect it coming from the fed and NOT bid against it!
> 
> Instead, the fed is telling states they're on their own! So they went out to buy PPE and ventilators, only to find themselves bidding against the fed!
> 
> That's good coordination?



And it wasn't just the Feds and the States in the bidding process for PPE.  There were other countries as well as commercial supply companies as well, and since much of the manufacturing of PPE items these days isn't done in the US, it's not like with the flip of a switch the Defense Powers act could of over night started producing PPE in the quantities that were needed (or thought to be needed in some locations) at that time. And that doesn't even take into account some of the speculators associated with hedge funds who got in on the bidding to purchase PPE items and then upsell them for a profit.

If anything when things quiet down and people can take a look at preparedness of things for possible future needs, I think that many will find that the trend over the last decade or so, from having say months of supplies on the medical PPE side of things on hand, down to more of a couple of weeks due to the ease and speed of shipping, will cause many organizations to take the hit on the balance sheet and spend more to have more supplies on hand, at all times, rather than running lean as the false sense of security that a rapid delivery system can give has brought upon the PPE side of healthcare.

Heck, 15 years ago, my office used to purchase our gloves, masks, gowns, etc PPE supplies in quantities that would last typically around 6 months. The suppliers would offer bulk discount deals to do so. Now, most of those bulk quantity deals are no longer, and the ordering is typically done in my office in more of a 4 to 6 week quantity since we know that everyday the UPS and/or FedEx truck will swing by the office and that our suppliers can have an order to us typically in 48hrs at the latest.

Honestly with respect to the Gov't response on the PPE front, not quite sure if even with a different plan they could of coordinated a better effort, as from the supply side, there just wasn't a ton of excess capacity available, especially when you're looking at something that was basically effecting every country in the world at the same basic time


----------



## abc (Feb 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly with respect to the Gov't response on the PPE front, not quite sure if even with a different plan they could of coordinated a better effort, as from the supply side, there just wasn't a ton of excess capacity available, especially when you're looking at something that was basically effecting every country in the world at the same basic time


Whatever the federal government did, it wouldn't have magically increase the supply of the PPE in March/April. But it shouldn't have added more confusion to an already stressful situation!

The Defense Production Act would help for a later point. But that wouldn't have helped at the time.

Look at what the Federal government did RIGHT: vaccine developments. The government should have done the same with PPE and test kits in March! One may argue they learned their lesson from the f*k up during the early stage and those were the "lessons learned". But that's what we can expect when we have amateur in the federal government "learning on the job".


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

Also, by the time Trump left office we were doing 1.1 million doses of vaccine per day.  So all Biden had to do in order to meet his "100 million within 100 days" goal was just show up.

Now if I could just get my jab...


----------



## drjeff (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Also, by the time Trump left office we were doing 1.1 million doses of vaccine per day.  So all Biden had to do in order to meet his "100 million within 100 days" goal was just show up.
> 
> Now if I could just get my jab...


Kind of like how the Biden administration is saying they want 50% of the schools open with atleast 1 day a week of in person learning by his 100th day in office, when there were already over 60% of schools doing that on his inauguration day?

In this day and age to think that 1 party is superior to the other when it comes to short comings, gaffes, over promising and under performing, is pretty laughable.

And yet so many seem to feel that "their" ideological preferred party is doing things vastly superior to the other party (mainly because their preferred elected officials and/or media outlet is telling them so) when in the end, both parties are doing somethings right, but their both also doing way more wrong than right, and thrive off of the division and hoopla they create by blaming the other as what often is an excuse for their lack of actually solving a problem. Absolutely disgusting


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> In this day and age to think that 1 party is superior to the other when it comes to short comings, gaffes, over promising and under performing, is pretty laughable.


So true.

Way too many people engage in tribalism that prevents them from being critical of their own "side."


----------



## Puck it (Feb 12, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> So true.
> 
> Way too many people engage in tribalism that prevents them from being critical of their own "side."


I am critical of both sides after this catastrophe.  I have never been so made at all levels of government.


----------



## abc (Feb 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> In this day and age to think that 1 party is superior to the other when it comes to short comings, gaffes, over promising and under performing, is pretty laughable.


Sorry, I don't think it has as much to do with parties. But ONE president is doing a particularly bad job compared to all in the past, from either parties!


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## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2021)

abc said:


> Sorry, I don't think it has as much to do with parties. But ONE president is doing a particularly bad job compared to all in the past, from either parties!



Gotta love the tribalism.


----------



## Pez (Feb 14, 2021)

you guys still arguing about this shit?

go skiing.


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## abc (Feb 14, 2021)

Pez said:


> you guys still arguing about this shit?
> 
> go skiing.


For those lucky enough to get reservations (or not blackout)


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## ctenidae (Feb 14, 2021)

I think I saw the horse twitch a minute ago, so thought I'd take a whack...

The real nugget of blame to ascribe does land at the feet of one person(s), and to my thinking it is Trump's. The virus was novel (it's even in the name), and it behaved in some pretty unexpected ways - a massively wide range of symptoms from sudden death to no symptoms at all, with every possible weird additional effect included (loss of smell, confusion, heart issues, etc); long incubation period and gap between onset of transmissibility and symptoms. The virus largely didn't act normally, and so it was hard to respond. This is not in dispute, I think - regardless of who is in charge, or where, this is a tough one.

The failure was one of leadership. Trump's administration provided no consistent leadership - on some elements it acted forcefully (buying ventilators, Warp Speed), in others it either offered nothing or dumped it off to the states. This made it difficult for states to do what they needed to do, much less know if it was something they needed to do in the first place.  Maybe that's just Trump's style - react to the thing in front of you that 5 seconds. If so, the pandemic has laid bare the limitations of such a philosophy. When we did finally start to learn enough about the virus to do something (anything) about it, we were in such a confused state that coordinating a response was nearly impossible. 

I don't think the early numbers would have changed much, but the Obama Administration had some pretty detailed plans for this sort of thing, and left them for Trump. I'm not sure if Trump's team ignored them, or if they were ignorant of them, but the methodical analysis possible when there is a plan to fall back on at least sets you up to analyze and understand data as it comes in, hopefully leading to a better, more studied set of actions and coordination. 

Trump either tosses out the rulebook or doesn't know there is one. In some situations, that's not the worst approach - it's pretty good for resetting situations and sort of starting over. In other cases where careful, direct analysis can provide better insights and inform decisions, such an approach can lead to disastrous results. Immigration, the wall, Covid, taxes - all benefit from careful consideration. Other places - Middle East peace, China trade - shooting form the hip helps tp reset expectations and start over from a better position. Unfortunately, reaping the benefits requires thoughtful planning for the future, something that's hard to do from the hip.

There were a lot of individual and agency failures - the Cuomo situation is sickening, if the full facts support the headlines. But I think you can trace at least some culpability to the top of the federal government. If there had been better leadership and guidance there, some decisions that were made might have gone the other way with a little more freedom to consider the question. I don't think Cuomo was a monster who didn't care if he was sending plague bombs into nursing homes. I do think that if resources hadn't been spread as thin, perhaps relieved by some federal guidance and direction, a different conclusion might have been reached and a different plan enacted. And I think that framework holds across party lines.


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 15, 2021)

" Pretty detailed plans " They did a great job with H1N1 right ? A disaster by there own admission .  So much for Politics . A one size fits all policy for this mess isn't a viable answer given population density differences . What works in NY city doesn't make sense in Dakotas . 

"No mask" , " Where masks" , " Where two masks" . Same guy different leader LOL 

So many downstream deaths are occurring ,depression , suicide, I'm sure there will be many books written . Fortunately for me I have worked through this mess but I have friends that own restaurants that will never recover, the shutdown seems to have favored connected big business and killed Mom and Pop operations . My neighbors work from home but I've never seen so many Wine bottles in their recycling bins . Home depot was a shit show last February .,everyone was home so they decided to remodel ....the place was packed yet no breakouts occurred ?

I think it's safe to say Politicians don't give a rats ass about the population ,It's "  Never let a crisis go to waste ".


----------



## abc (Feb 15, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> They did a great job with H1N1 right ? A disaster by there own admission


If H1N1 was a disaster, Covid is a catastraphy! Do we always do worse the next time? 



Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> "No mask" , " Where masks" , " Where two masks" . Same guy different leader LOL


That's the best illustration of why we are in a place we are now. People want certainty. People don't want to learn. They need to be told one thing and no matter what science progress to say it's wrong, it must not change! 

They prefer to be told, with confidence. Even if it's lies.


----------



## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

Look, the only way I can "vote" on all these differing responses/restrictions etc is with my feet and wallet.  While I hate holding money back from the individual folks who work at resorts, I am so frustrated with VT's response I honestly don't know if I will ever ski that state again.  ME has been kind to those of us living in NH, allowing for botht o move back and forth without Quarantine.  Heck, they even exempt VT folks but VT didn't reciprocate to either of the other Northern NE states.  Assuming this ends for next season, I feel like returning to ski in VT is just allowing the Government's decisions on how to handle this to get a passing grade, which I don't feel are warranted.  Sure, they kept the virus transmissions low.  But is that due to the strict travel protocols or more a factor of the mostly rural and small population of the state in the first place?  No one will honestly ever be able to say definitively one or the other.  Oh well.  Same goes for Canada too for me.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> Look, the only way I can "vote" on all these differing responses/restrictions etc is with my feet and wallet.  While I hate holding money back from the individual folks who work at resorts, I am so frustrated with VT's response I honestly don't know if I will ever ski that state again.  ME has been kind to those of us living in NH, allowing for botht o move back and forth without Quarantine.  Heck, they even exempt VT folks but VT didn't reciprocate to either of the other Northern NE states.  Assuming this ends for next season, I feel like returning to ski in VT is just allowing the Government's decisions on how to handle this to get a passing grade, which I don't feel are warranted.  Sure, they kept the virus transmissions low.  But is that due to the strict travel protocols or more a factor of the mostly rural and small population of the state in the first place?  No one will honestly ever be able to say definitively one or the other.  Oh well.  Same goes for Canada too for me.


+1 VT may have lost me forever. 

But fortunately for VT nobody cares what I do.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> Look, the only way I can "vote" on all these differing responses/restrictions etc is with my feet and wallet.  While I hate holding money back from the individual folks who work at resorts, I am so frustrated with VT's response I honestly don't know if I will ever ski that state again.  ME has been kind to those of us living in NH, allowing for botht o move back and forth without Quarantine.  Heck, they even exempt VT folks but VT didn't reciprocate to either of the other Northern NE states.  Assuming this ends for next season, I feel like returning to ski in VT is just allowing the Government's decisions on how to handle this to get a passing grade, which I don't feel are warranted.  Sure, they kept the virus transmissions low.  But is that due to the strict travel protocols or more a factor of the mostly rural and small population of the state in the first place?  No one will honestly ever be able to say definitively one or the other.  Oh well.  Same goes for Canada too for me.


If you compare VT to other rural states, VT seems to do pretty well.

But I'm curious - you say you can't know for sure whether if was the government imposed travel restrictions or other factors that led to what is undoubtedly a good track record on community spread of the virus, but then condemn the state government for their actions.

IOW, if you can't say for sure whether or not the government actions worked to keep the state safer, why do you condemn those actions?

Seems to me VT had the balls to do what it had to do to keep it's people as safe as they can.  and honestly, their restrictions are just common sense - I don't find the idea that you should be as reasonably sure as possible that you aren't bringing an infectious disease into another community to be draconian.  If more states took a hard stand on this, and asked everyone to test or quarantine before travelling, we'd be doing much better as a country.  

And the isolating is difficult for some, but testing shouldn't be.  We should all be able to get a test every week.  That was the first blunder - testing can really help, but we just didn't have enough to start with, and never made it part of the national plan.  

Anyway - you can ski in VT this season.  They just ask you to take a test or isolate to me sure you aren't bringing COVID in with you.


----------



## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> If you compare VT to other rural states, VT seems to do pretty well.
> 
> But I'm curious - you say you can't know for sure whether if was the government imposed travel restrictions or other factors that led to what is undoubtedly a good track record on community spread of the virus, but then condemn the state government for their actions.
> 
> ...


That isn't correct, you have to Quarantine (byt their rules, basically completely isolate) for 7 days THEN negative test.  I'm a pilot, I fly 7 days on, 7 days off.  If I lived in VT and came back from a rotation I would be exempt and could ski all I wanted in VT.  But I live in NH and while exempt in NH and ME, VT doesn't see it like that because I'd be coming from NH.  So, with my schedule I CANNOT in good faith ski VT this year.  And to be honest, it is ridiculous.  So yes, because the two variables are not isolated (rural-ness of VT and VT government travel restrictions) a definitive reason why VT has been as successful at mitigating virus spread cannot be proven.  But also given the fact the "open" NH/ME border hasn't caused a staggeringly larger difference in rates amongst those states, it begins to appear VT's restrictions might be more rigid than necessary.  Regardless, my money has to be spent skiing in NH and ME this year and I have learned I can live without VT skiing.  Will be tough super early season and super late without K, but I'll manage.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> That isn't correct, you have to Quarantine (byt their rules, basically completely isolate) for 7 days THEN negative test.  I'm a pilot, I fly 7 days on, 7 days off.  If I lived in VT and came back from a rotation I would be exempt and could ski all I wanted in VT.  But I live in NH and while exempt in NH and ME, VT doesn't see it like that because I'd be coming from NH.  So, with my schedule I CANNOT in good faith ski VT this year.  And to be honest, it is ridiculous.  So yes, because the two variables are not isolated (rural-ness of VT and VT government travel restrictions) a definitive reason why VT has been as successful at mitigating virus spread cannot be proven.  But also given the fact the "open" NH/ME border hasn't caused a staggeringly larger difference in rates amongst those states, it begins to appear VT's restrictions might be more rigid than necessary.  Regardless, my money has to be spent skiing in NH and ME this year and I have learned I can live without VT skiing.  Will be tough super early season and super late without K, but I'll manage.


Oh, that's right - I forgot about the 7 day thing first.

But I'm in the same boat.  It's just not realistic for me to live up to their guidelines, so we have no plans to ski in VT this year.

I'm just not condemning them for doing what they think is right for their citizens, particularly since it seems to be working.  Something is working.  Hard to imagine dissuading travel isn't helping.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Oh, that's right - I forgot about the 7 day thing first.
> 
> But I'm in the same boat.  It's just not realistic for me to live up to their guidelines, so we have no plans to ski in VT this year.
> 
> I'm just not condemning them for doing what they think is right for their citizens, particularly since it seems to be working.  Something is working.  Hard to imagine dissuading travel isn't helping.


Perhaps VT government is doing what is best for their citizens.

But when I see hundreds of VT plates in NY every week and at NY ski areas as well I have to wonder just how effective these restrictions are. So I won't go into VT and spread the virus, but how about all these VTers who are visiting out of state locations on a regular basis? Are they somehow immune? They can't spread it? 

It is the apex of hypocrisy to have a system where out of state Americans cannot visit a state without jumping through hoops but it's OK for in state residents to go anywhere they want. And then blame infections on out of state visitors. That is essentially what VT is saying.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Perhaps VT government is doing what is best for their citizens.
> 
> But when I see hundreds of VT plates in NY every week and at NY ski areas as well I have to wonder just how effective these restrictions are. So I won't go into VT and spread the virus, but how about all these VTers who are visiting out of state locations on a regular basis? Are they somehow immune? They can't spread it?
> 
> It is the apex of hypocrisy to have a system where out of state Americans cannot visit a state without jumping through hoops but it's OK for in state residents to go anywhere they want. And then blame infections on out of state visitors. That is essentially what VT is saying.


Isn't that on NY for not issuing similar restrictions?

And all those VT plates you see are supposed to quarantine when they get back to VT.









						Travel
					






					www.healthvermont.gov


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## abc (Feb 15, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Perhaps VT government is doing what is best for their citizens.
> 
> But when I see hundreds of VT plates in NY every week and at NY ski areas as well I have to wonder just how effective these restrictions are. So I won't go into VT and spread the virus, but how about all these VTers who are visiting out of state locations on a regular basis? Are they somehow immune? They can't spread it?


If VT case number is low, VT residents traveling to other states aren't spreading it to other states (not as much as visitor INTO VT)

Whether VT residents quarantine after they visit NY, I have no idea. Seems some do.

I think that's the point. By having the restriction, they're achieving a partial result. It's not ideal. But it's better than throwing up one's hand and say "well, some people are going to ignore it. So let's not have any restriction".


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Isn't that on NY for not issuing similar restrictions?
> 
> And all those VT plates you see are supposed to quarantine when they get back to VT.
> 
> ...


Right and all the Massachusetts residents that visit Vt and NH are supposed to quarantine 14 days as well when they get back.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2021)

JimG. said:


> But when I see hundreds of VT plates in NY every week and at NY ski areas as well I have to wonder just how effective these restrictions are.



Hundreds of Vermonters driving to New York to ski?  Something tells me it's hundreds of New Yorkers getting lower insurance rates with Vermont registrations.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

abc said:


> If VT case number is low, VT residents traveling to other states aren't spreading it to other states (not as much as visitor INTO VT)
> 
> Whether VT residents quarantine after they visit NY, I have no idea. Seems some do.
> 
> I think that's the point. By having the restriction, they're achieving a partial result. It's not ideal. But it's better than throwing up one's hand and say "well, some people are going to ignore it. So let's not have any restriction".


I agree.

It's also evidence, IMO, for the need for a comprehensive national response.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Home depot was a shit show last February .,everyone was home so they decided to remodel ....the place was packed yet no breakouts occurred ?


Last February? Was Home Depot contact tracing? If not, how do you know there wasn’t spreading occurring there?


----------



## njdiver85 (Feb 15, 2021)

I think it's pretty much fact that transient exposure to someone with Covid does not result in infection the majority of the time.  And I stress "majority" so please don't respond back to me to say it can still happen.  Because of course it can still happen.  But by transient, that would be passing someone in the Home Depot aisle, waiting in checkout at a grocery store, OR standing in a lift line or riding a chair lift for 7 minutes.  Probably extremely low risk of infection, and with the latter two taking place outside that further reduces the risk of transmission.

Transmission is mostly occurring with groups of people hanging out indoors for an extended period, and by extended, I'm talking something like 15 minutes or more in close quarters.  Most of the Vermont transmission happened this way - the governor said it himself.    Look at the WinterPark employees - 109 test positive and was determined thru  investigation that transmission was not from visitors but from social gatherings outside the workplace and congregate housing.  Even restaurants have been found to be extremely low risk of transmission and the average time spent in a restaurant is well over 15 minutes.

Travel restrictions are pretty stupid for those who simply want to travel to a ski resort and ski the day, staying outside the whole time, and then go home the same day.  Or someone driving from his home to his ski condo to ski for a few days with the only others in the home being the family he drove up with.   But we are stuck with arbitrary regulations so we need to just get over it, and work within the system to abide by the regulations and get your skiing in.

On a related note, who even thinks we go back to normal next season?  Not a chance is my guess!


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Last February? Was Home Depot contact tracing? If not, how do you know there wasn’t spreading occurring there?


I suppose some spreading might have occurred but  nothing major for the amount of people that were there. People working from home would eventually put two and two together .I’ve never seen that level of people there. I drove through the parking lot and left. 

They eventually started limiting entrants but it was completely out of control early on.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> I think it's pretty much fact that transient exposure to someone with Covid does not result in infection the majority of the time.  And I stress "majority" so please don't respond back to me to say it can still happen.  Because of course it can still happen.  But by transient, that would be passing someone in the Home Depot aisle, waiting in checkout at a grocery store, OR standing in a lift line or riding a chair lift for 7 minutes.  Probably extremely low risk of infection, and with the latter two taking place outside that further reduces the risk of transmission.
> 
> Transmission is mostly occurring with groups of people hanging out indoors for an extended period, and by extended, I'm talking something like 15 minutes or more in close quarters.  Most of the Vermont transmission happened this way - the governor said it himself.    Look at the WinterPark employees - 109 test positive and was determined thru  investigation that transmission was not from visitors but from social gatherings outside the workplace and congregate housing.  Even restaurants have been found to be extremely low risk of transmission and the average time spent in a restaurant is well over 15 minutes.
> 
> ...


I assumed the logic behind the VT travel restrictions was to keep people from loading up their condo and inviting their local friends over, and then heading out to the bars, and then popping in on a friend or parent on the way home etc....

IOW, I don't think it's about the skiing.  It's about the things that come with the skiing.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> And all those VT plates you see are supposed to quarantine when they get back to VT.


Just like all the NYers who ski in VT every weekend?

njdiver85 said it all. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I suppose some spreading might have occurred but  nothing major for the amount of people that were there. People working from home would eventually put two and two together .I’ve never seen that level of people there. I drove through the parking lot and left.
> 
> They eventually started limiting entrants but it was completely out of control early on.


Then it sounds as if you’re speculating entirely. I get that you’re sad about wine bottles and restaurants closing but state governments were compelled to do something. I bet “books will be written” about not enough being done.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just like all the NYers who ski in VT every weekend?


For better or worse, NY does not 'require' or 'recommend' quarantining after visiting contiguous states.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> I bet “books will be written” about not enough being done.



I'm not so sure about that.  My gut tells me that history will view our response as an overreaction.  In my opinion, we should have protected the vulnerable but allowed the healthy more freedom.  But what do I know...


----------



## JimG. (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> For better or worse, NY does not 'require' or 'recommend' quarantining after visiting contiguous states.


Since I ski in NY this season I've not looked at any of the restrictions in a while. You are quite correct.

I often forget who my state's genius governor is. Wow.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not so sure about that.  My gut tells me that history will view our response as an overreaction.  In my opinion, we should have protected the vulnerable but allowed the healthy more freedom.  But what do I know...


Time will tell for sure but relentless bemoaning about government actions seem frequently accompanied by complete lack of concern about deaths (nearly 500k in the US currently).


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Then it sounds as if you’re speculating entirely. I get that you’re sad about wine bottles and restaurants closing but state governments were compelled to do something. I bet “books will be written” about not enough being done.


It's rational to assume that people who contract the virus are asked questions by there physicians . I'm around the area enough to know if an outbreak occurred . As others have mentioned it seems like social events where people spend an extended time together is where transmission  is most likely. 

  I'm actually concerned my neighbors are becoming alcoholics ..........."state governments were compelled to do something" LOL my business partner has a saying "Do something , even if it's wrong" .  As bad as someone having inside knowledge to front run the stock market is ,removing a parent from a nursing home while telling everyone else it's ok to remain is criminal !!!! That person is now in a higher position than when they made that call?  Not a good start for a new administration . Shutting down was justified early on but the goal posts were moved to benefit big business .

 Another malady concern I have besides the increase in cirrhosis is COPD . I seem to be spitting out mask fibers all the time ,maybe I have to look around for better quality masks? Telling the population a lie about masks to prevent a run on N95 masks to save them for healthcare workers could have been handled differently .


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Time will tell for sure but relentless bemoaning about government actions seem frequently accompanied by complete lack of concern about deaths (nearly 500k in the US currently).



There seems to be a direct correlation between the unhealthiness of a population and the number of deaths.  The United States was always going to have a somewhat high death count for that reason alone.


----------



## abc (Feb 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not so sure about that. My gut tells me that history will view our response as an overreaction. In my opinion, we should have protected the vulnerable but allowed the healthy more freedom


Protect? Like how?

The reality being, the highest incidence of spread is family! Somehow, people can't grasp the concept that their children can be death on 2 legs.

It's precisely when the "young" are out and about, catch it, have little or no symptoms... pass it on to their elderly or vulnerable family members that led to the worst outbreaks.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not so sure about that.  My gut tells me that history will view our response as an overreaction.  In my opinion, we should have protected the vulnerable but allowed the healthy more freedom.  But what do I know...


I would agree with that if we coupled it with extensive - like twice a week - testing and vigorous contact tracing.  
Otherwise there really is no way to protect the vulnerable.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> There seems to be a direct correlation between the unhealthiness of a population and the number of deaths.  The United States was always going to have a somewhat high death count for that reason alone.


Sure, I’ll buy that.


----------



## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> I would agree with that if we coupled it with extensive - like twice a week - testing and vigorous contact tracing.
> Otherwise there really is no way to protect the vulnerable.


Seriously?  Have an imagination.  How many people have we lost in nursing homes and other long term care facilities?  How did it get in to those mostly isolated communities of folks?  The required employees.  So the Federal Government should have set up a robust testing protocol for the empoyees of those facilities and restricted visitation by all others.  The one issue with this was that initially, it wasn't known it would have the mortality rate it does on the old.  By the time it was clear, many of these facilitieshad already been exposed.  Then even after it, as we went into the fall, these faacilities still took it hard.  I don't knw the actual numbers, but it would not shock me to learn down the road half the deaths were found in similar facilities from this pandemic.

So I'm not sure the testing needed to be twice a week and extensive, it likely needed to be twice a week and highly focused to protect the most vulnerable who couldn't protect themselves.


----------



## abc (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> So I'm not sure the testing needed to be twice a week and extensive, it likely needed to be twice a week and highly focused to protect the most vulnerable who couldn't protect themselves.


Hospitals test their doctors and nurses frequently (probably not twice a week, maybe once a week?)

Perhaps the reason we're not testing nursing home employees is because nobody wants to pay for it?


----------



## ss20 (Feb 15, 2021)

Now that we are fully into the "better days ahead" part of this pandemic, it'll be interesting who/what/where restrictions are gradually lifted first and who holds out.  Get the popcorn ready, because there's gonna be bonehead decisions on both sides of the spectrum of "reopen now and lets lick everyone in the process" and "don't step foot outside your bedroom and wipe down all your groceries".


----------



## Puck it (Feb 15, 2021)

Hmmm. A tale of two cities. 

*California Gov Gavin Newsom took a very strict approach during the coronavirus pandemic and closed bars and indoor dining, issued mask mandates and limited gathering*
*By comparison, Florida Gov Ron DeSantis has issued very few closures and said he has trusted Floridian to 'use common sense' to control the spread of the virus*
*Historically, when adjusting for population, Florida has had 8,306 cases and 117 deaths per 100,000 residents and California has had about 8,499 cases per 100,000 residents and 130 deaths per 100,000 *
*Currently, each states is recording between 200 and 400 cases per million people and between 10 and 20 deaths per million, showing a very similar curve over the last two months *
*Hospitalization rates are also very similar with California reporting 24 hospitalizations per 100,000 while Florida has recorded about 22 per 100,000*


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> Seriously?  Have an imagination.  How many people have we lost in nursing homes and other long term care facilities?  How did it get in to those mostly isolated communities of folks?  The required employees.  So the Federal Government should have set up a robust testing protocol for the empoyees of those facilities and restricted visitation by all others.  The one issue with this was that initially, it wasn't known it would have the mortality rate it does on the old.  By the time it was clear, many of these facilitieshad already been exposed.  Then even after it, as we went into the fall, these faacilities still took it hard.  I don't knw the actual numbers, but it would not shock me to learn down the road half the deaths were found in similar facilities from this pandemic.
> 
> So I'm not sure the testing needed to be twice a week and extensive, it likely needed to be twice a week and highly focused to protect the most vulnerable who couldn't protect themselves.


That's one vulnerable populations.

What about the elderly that live at home and depend on family to care for the?  Elderly who live with their kids?  Elderly who live alone?  Elderly who still work?

What about those with medical conditions?  How do you isolate a 45yo with lung issues from his healthy wife and kids?  Make them live in the basement?

What do you do about an immunocompromised waiter?  Or CEO?  They just can't go to work?

You can minimize the need for shutdowns with aggressive testing and contact tracing.  Otherwise it's impossible to protect all the vulnerable populations.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

Puck it said:


> Hmmm. A tale of two cities.
> 
> *California Gov Gavin Newsom took a very strict approach during the coronavirus pandemic and closed bars and indoor dining, issued mask mandates and limited gathering*
> *By comparison, Florida Gov Ron DeSantis has issued very few closures and said he has trusted Floridian to 'use common sense' to control the spread of the virus*
> ...


Not sure where you are getting your info.

This article says FLA has about twice the deaths and hospitalizations as CA.









						How FL and CA have seen similar case, hospitalizations and deaths
					

California and Florida took  different approaches when it came to lockdowns but ended up with similar curves in coronavirus cases, hospitalizations and deaths.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				





*Adjusting for population, Florida has 5,043 COVID-19 cases and 91 deaths per 100,000 residents while California has about 4,595 cases and 51 deaths per 100,000, showing a similar curve *
*Historically, Florida was reporting about 44 hospitalizations per 100,000 while California has about 22 per 100,000, with both states seeing a spike in mid-January and now a decline*


----------



## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> That's one vulnerable populations.
> 
> What about the elderly that live at home and depend on family to care for the?  Elderly who live with their kids?  Elderly who live alone?  Elderly who still work?
> 
> ...


Look I took one group that has been hit hard and suggested some different paths that may have cut back on it.  One off cases are more difficult and by their nature, will require individual decisions.  I'm a pilot, I have to travel for my livelihood and my elderly mother in law lives with us.  My wife is a teacher and they have been in school most of the year.  Yet we have maintained health of all of us without copious testing multiple times a week.  Have we all taken increased precautions in our lives, both essential errands and work?  Absolutely.  We made some choices as well, as I elected to take unpaid leave early on until my company developed a better plan moving forward.


tnt1234 said:


> That's one vulnerable populations.
> 
> What about the elderly that live at home and depend on family to care for the?  Elderly who live with their kids?  Elderly who live alone?  Elderly who still work?
> 
> ...


I picked long term care facilities as they house a group of vulnerable folks not able to protect themselves.  Sure, there are many vulnerable folks out there that are in more individual situations.  Those would require individual decisions to be made in each case.  Better national guidance would have been great for these folks, perhaps having targeted the financial payouts more to these groups should they elect to not work, etc in stead of just tossing checks to a certain income level and below.  In the end, we live in what we consider to be a free country.  Individual cases need to make the best decisions for their situations, it cannot be a one size fits the entire country.  If this virus had the transmission rate it does and the lethality of say Ebola, then maybe a one size howitzer approach.  But this, can't be a one size approach.  Has to be more regional and even down to an individual in terms of how best to protect.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> Look I took one group that has been hit hard and suggested some different paths that may have cut back on it.  One off cases are more difficult and by their nature, will require individual decisions.  I'm a pilot, I have to travel for my livelihood and my elderly mother in law lives with us.  My wife is a teacher and they have been in school most of the year.  Yet we have maintained health of all of us without copious testing multiple times a week.  Have we all taken increased precautions in our lives, both essential errands and work?  Absolutely.  We made some choices as well, as I elected to take unpaid leave early on until my company developed a better plan moving forward.
> 
> I picked long term care facilities as they house a group of vulnerable folks not able to protect themselves.  Sure, there are many vulnerable folks out there that are in more individual situations.  Those would require individual decisions to be made in each case.  Better national guidance would have been great for these folks, perhaps having targeted the financial payouts more to these groups should they elect to not work, etc in stead of just tossing checks to a certain income level and below.  In the end, we live in what we consider to be a free country.  Individual cases need to make the best decisions for their situations, it cannot be a one size fits the entire country.  If this virus had the transmission rate it does and the lethality of say Ebola, then maybe a one size howitzer approach.  But this, can't be a one size approach.  Has to be more regional and even down to an individual in terms of how best to protect.


I don't disagree with all that.  I just think you can't say 'protect the vulnerable population while letting everyone else go back to normal'.   It just can't work. 

And I think testing and tracing could have been used to good effect no matter the regional or state approach.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Not sure where you are getting your info.
> 
> This article says FLA has about twice the deaths and hospitalizations as CA.
> 
> ...


Not sure where your snipit came from. It makes no sense.  The snipit I pulled was from the same article in a different section. It has different verbiage. Odd.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

Puck it said:


> Not sure where your snipit came from. It makes no sense.


It comes from teh article I posted there.  Data is within the article.  

Where did your stats come from?


----------



## Puck it (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> It comes from teh article I posted there.  Data is within the article.
> 
> Where did your stats come from?


It is the same article but from a different section. Everything in the article I reed and reread is different from your snipit.  I clipped mine from the US home section.

The snipit that you posted does not even support the byline.

California and Florida took different approaches and had same result


https://mol.im/a/9262397


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 15, 2021)

Puck it said:


> It is the same article but from a different section. Everything in the article I reed and reread is different from your snipit.


huh.  Thats weird!  My quote was the bullet points at the top.  


Found it!

The bullet point seems to come from this quote:

For example, in late July, Florida was reporting about 44 hospitalizations per 100,000 while California has about 22 per 100,000.

Seems misleading to bullet that.

I think your assertion seems correct.


----------



## Puck it (Feb 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> huh.  Thats weird!  My quote was the bullet points at the top.
> 
> 
> Found it!
> ...


odd


----------



## machski (Feb 16, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> I don't disagree with all that.  I just think you can't say 'protect the vulnerable population while letting everyone else go back to normal'.   It just can't work.
> 
> And I think testing and tracing could have been used to good effect no matter the regional or state approach.


The only way tracing could have been able to keep up would have been if the entire country was forced to enable tracing apps on their phones.  Otherwise, at its peaks, it would have been an absolute spider web trying to contact trace everyone and cost a fortune.  But given this is the USA, I don't think many would have willingly let Big Brother track their every move.  And if it was forced, well January 6th would have been a kids party by comparison I think.
So while in theory testing and tracing could work well and limited spread/cases/deaths, I think it would have been hard to put into much tighter use in the USA without suspension of civil liberties.  I guess since these things could pop up more often, it is a discussion we as a country need to have once the current crisis abates.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Hospitals test their doctors and nurses frequently (probably not twice a week, maybe once a week?)
> 
> Perhaps the reason we're not testing nursing home employees is because nobody wants to pay for it?


YES, we were getting tested Twice/week when we started "surveillance testing" in August.
 Recently (Jan) it was dropped to Once/week


----------



## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

machski said:


> I elected to take unpaid leave early on until my company *developed a better plan moving forward*.


Isn't that the point many people are making, that we needed a better plan moving forward? 

A plan that actually base on science, and have the support of the population. 

In that plan, nursing home employees probably need to be vaccinated or take a no pay leave. Immunocompromised worker who can't work remotely too. But they should receive some basic amount of financial support from the government.


----------



## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

machski said:


> The only way tracing could have been able to keep up would have been if the entire country was forced to enable tracing apps on their phones. Otherwise, at its peaks, it would have been an absolute spider web trying to contact trace everyone and cost a fortune.


At its peak, never mind. Tracing really only works when the case number is relatively low. It works best when cases are ISOLATED. And the point is to snub it out quickly. Otherwise, you're just seeing it connected everywhere. And it's pretty pointless even if you CAN find all the contacts, you'll end up quarantining half of the population, aka a lockdown.

But even when the case number is middling like it is now, contact tracing still helps. It doesn't need to "keep up" fully. Every contact traced is a potential spreader stopped. A friend of mine was exposed, informed by the person who tested positive. He self-quarantined. That stops him potentially passing it to others. It's a shame people just throw up their hand and say "it doesn't work very well, lets not bother trying". We're too quick to "give up" on less than perfect solutions and choose to do nothing at all.


----------



## machski (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Isn't that the point many people are making, that we needed a better plan moving forward?
> 
> A plan that actually base on science, and have the support of the population.
> 
> In that plan, nursing home employees probably need to be vaccinated or take a no pay leave. Immunocompromised worker who can't work remotely too. But they should receive some basic amount of financial support from the government.


Maybe we do need a better plan.  But it needs to be a better global plan for the next virus that pops up.  Had a global plan been in place for this virus, perhaps we could have trapped it from the start.  Of course, the evidence is beginning to look like China covered up the start of this thing more than we originally thought, which begs the question if the next virus can really be dealt with any better by the world. 

Sure, we can contact trace better and isolate folks that have underlying complications, but that doesn't mean the next virus will follow the same course as this one.  A lot could have been different, but outside of early (late January/early February when the science community first really came into awareness of this things potential severity) hard restriction at the national level with regards to travel and quarantine for international arrivals, not sure we really had a good chance to contain/minimize this.  Absent a complete 21 day national lockdown to ensure the virus did not transmit in March of last year.  Even after, we would have had to isolate our country like Australia and New Zealand did.  And even they are still dealing with outbreaks, albeit smaller and the jump harder when they occur.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 16, 2021)

One can argue the semantics all they want. 

The reality is, if one is honest, that it's pretty incredible to think that likely by the time we get to that call it March 15th shutdown date 1 year anniversary, that a vaccine that basically had even had any development started on in, will likely have at least 1 dose, if not 2 doses, administered to somewhere around 80-85 million Americans at the rate vaccinations are going now, and that while certainly significant, the death toll at that 1 year mark will be substantially less than the million plus that some where postulating a year ago.

This entire situation has been far from perfect (heck, one could probably make a very sound case that there was no way it could ever of been handled "prefect"), however some of the achievements that have happened, have been incredibly impressive.


----------



## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

machski said:


> Maybe we do need a better plan. But it needs to be a better global plan for the next virus that pops up.


After this pandemic, I'm completely disillusioned about "global" plan!

Sure, we need to corporate with other countries. That works better for everyone. But we got badly burned by China, first in its hiding the truth about the disease. Then the shortage of PPE, which was mostly manufactured in China! So I'd say whatever "plan" we have, we should first rely on ourselves, then work with other countries and utilize their capacity if possible.

(Mind you, I'm not bashing China. They did what they did out of self interest. But we got bad consequence as a result nevertheless). We need to think more on how to avoid that type of situation. Next time it maybe another country)


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 17, 2021)

drjeff said:


> One can argue the semantics all they want.
> 
> The reality is, if one is honest, that it's pretty incredible to think that likely by the time we get to that call it March 15th shutdown date 1 year anniversary, that a vaccine that basically had even had any development started on in, will likely have at least 1 dose, if not 2 doses, administered to somewhere around 80-85 million Americans at the rate vaccinations are going now, and that while certainly significant, the death toll at that 1 year mark will be substantially less than the million plus that some where postulating a year ago.
> 
> This entire situation has been far from perfect (heck, one could probably make a very sound case that there was no way it could ever of been handled "prefect"), however some of the achievements that have happened, have been incredibly impressive.


Didn’t they come up with the blueprint for the vaccine in something like 4 days? Just incredible.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 17, 2021)

abc said:


> After this pandemic, I'm completely disillusioned about "global" plan!
> 
> Sure, we need to corporate with other countries. That works better for everyone. But we got badly burned by China, first in its hiding the truth about the disease. Then the shortage of PPE, which was mostly manufactured in China! So I'd say whatever "plan" we have, we should first rely on ourselves, then work with other countries and utilize their capacity if possible.
> 
> (Mind you, I'm not bashing China. They did what they did out of self interest. But we got bad consequence as a result nevertheless). We need to think more on how to avoid that type of situation. Next time it maybe another country)


Re: our early response.  We had friends come home from Italy in April while that country was raging. Walked right through airport.  No one asked them where they had been how they were feeling, or told them what precautions to take.  

these are the kind of national missteps I think we took.


----------



## machski (Feb 17, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Re: our early response.  We had friends come home from Italy in April while that country was raging. Walked right through airport.  No one asked them where they had been how they were feeling, or told them what precautions to take.
> 
> these are the kind of national missteps I think we took.


Agree, but the WHO was to blame for this mentality as well, saying travel restrictions and quarantines weren't required at the start.  They came around far too slowly.  So it wasn't just a country thing, it needs to be a global thing.  But the WHO doesn't have the authority, just like the UN doesn't.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 17, 2021)

machski said:


> Agree, but the WHO was to blame for this mentality as well, saying travel restrictions and quarantines weren't required at the start.  They came around far too slowly.  So it wasn't just a country thing, it needs to be a global thing.  But the WHO doesn't have the authority, just like the UN doesn't.


Don't forget Dr. Fauci who first told us mask use was not needed.

Now he wants us to wear 2 masks.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Don't forget Dr. Fauci who first told us mask use was not needed.
> 
> Now he wants us to wear 2 masks.


Yes, we now know what we didn't know. 

A year ago, who had heard of Covid? (even now, the dictionary is still trying to auto-correct what I typed). It's not different than snow forecast. It's not always right. Quite often wrong. But your odds are better if you follow it than if you don't.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Re: our early response.  We had friends come home from Italy in April while that country was raging. Walked right through airport.  No one asked them where they had been how they were feeling, or told them what precautions to take.
> 
> these are the kind of national missteps I think we took.


There're clearly missteps at the nation-wide level. But my point is, "global" plan should not rely on any individual foreign country so completely! 

Take the example of Europe. Austria decided to downplay outbreaks in Ischl because they care more about tourist money than their health. Iceland had sounded the alarm when their returning tourists got sick. Sadly, almost no other country took Iceland's warning seriously.


----------



## So Inclined (Feb 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Don't forget Dr. Fauci who first told us mask use was not needed.
> 
> Now he wants us to wear 2 masks.



The point of advising the _hoi polloi_ not to use masks was to avoid a massive rush on N95-type masks when those seemed like the only effective PPE and doctors and nurses needed them desperately. Medical experts didn't know and couldn't possibly assert that less-robust surgical masks and facial coverings were pretty effective at preventing the spread, and the face-coverings cottage industry we have now hadn't yet spun up.


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 17, 2021)

So Inclined said:


> The point of advising the _hoi polloi_ not to use masks was to avoid a massive rush on N95-type masks when those seemed like the only effective PPE and doctors and nurses needed them desperately. Medical experts didn't know and couldn't possibly assert that less-robust surgical masks and facial coverings were pretty effective at preventing the spread, and the face-coverings cottage industry we have now hadn't yet spun up.


Total BS ....So keep spreading the Virus ,......Should have been handled this way ...Honestly! ...Fauci should have said . " Dear public we need your help ,our caregivers need N95 masks we need to protect them from harm .If you can find them please drop some off at your local hospital ,In the meantime  please use Scarves, Bandanas and whatever else you can to prevent airborne spread of the virus" . It would have been better than no masks at all . It downplayed the contagiousness of the disease and in the long run made things worse.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Total BS ....So keep spreading the Virus ,......Should have been handled this way ...Honestly! ...Fauci should have said . " Dear public we need your help ,our caregivers need N95 masks we need to protect them from harm .If you can find them please drop some off at your local hospital ,In the meantime  please use Scarves, Bandanas and whatever else you can to prevent airborne spread of the virus" . It would have been better than no masks at all . It downplayed the contagiousness of the disease and in the long run made things worse.


That's not Fauci's job. It's the President's job.

Fauci's priority was not to get fired by the president, like everyone else in the administration. Expecting him to speak frankly is asking too much.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Feb 17, 2021)

I just read that Phil Scott was going to announce changes in travel guidance for "Vermonters who have been vaccinated." My guess? Instead of 14 day quarantine, you will now be able to go about your business after ... 13 days of quarantine.


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 17, 2021)

abc said:


> That's not Fauci's job. It's the President's job.
> 
> Fauci's priority was not to get fired by the president, like everyone else in the administration. Expecting him to speak frankly is asking too much.


So the President told him to lie ?  Come on Man !!!!


----------



## ScottySkis (Feb 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Don't forget Dr. Fauci who first told us mask use was not needed.
> 
> Now he wants us to wear 2 masks.


Who also was told by Obama administration to stop funding the China wutun lab which he did stop doing


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> So the President told him to lie ?  Come on Man !!!!


So the president didn't tell anyone to lie? And he didn't tell anyone to "find votes" for him either? 

Wake up, Man!!!!


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> So the president didn't tell anyone to lie? And he didn't tell anyone to "find votes" for him either?
> 
> Wake up, Man!!!!


I'm confident Fauci would have resigned if there was interference from above . I feel we are in good hands after watching the recent town hall totally accurate information.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> That's not Fauci's job. It's the President's job.
> 
> Fauci's priority was not to get fired by the president, like everyone else in the administration. Expecting him to speak frankly is asking too much.


When you come out and say we do not need even face coverings and cruises are safe that’s not the presidents fault no matter red or blue.

so his main job was to not get fired???? That makes him look even worse.

he fucked this up and helped created the large segment of the country that believes this whole thing is BS. Now people can’t believe that he gets questioned 

I don’t see how you can’t question him. 2 mask.......really what will he learn next..... let me guess....... 3 masks?
#clown


----------



## 1dog (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> When you come out and say we do not need even face coverings and cruises are safe that’s not the presidents fault no matter red or blue.
> 
> so his main job was to not get fired???? That makes him look even worse.
> 
> ...


Highest paid federal employee $425k+ and hasn’t practiced medicine since 1968.

the definition of swamp creature/deep state.

even Obama had to tell him to back off of Wuhan lab funding.

presidents /congress come and go but the deep state is permanent.


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> so his main job was to not get fired???? That makes him look even worse.


Why do you think he's the only one who survived from Obama to Trump and actually outlast Trump?

Even Trump's own appointees gets fired or forced to resign when they don't say what he want to hear. Once he made up his mind one way, science or no science no longer matter.

The moment Fauci didn't say he support the president's plan of "pack the churches by Easter", he gets death threats! Getting fired would have been a better alternative



1dog said:


> presidents /congress come and go but the deep state is permanent.


If by "deep state", you mean the agencies, how about changing all the generals and admirals with each change of congress???


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

Friend from Australia forwarded me "shocking" news from Australia this morning, "Pandemic casualty: 5 businesses in Malborne closed permanently".  

I was like, yeah, 5 business closing is headline news. I went into the city to visit my Mom. Within the 2 block area of her apartment, there're more than 5 business closed permanently. City wide? I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than 500!


----------



## drjeff (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Friend from Australia forwarded me "shocking" news from Australia this morning, "Pandemic casualty: 5 businesses in Malborne closed permanently".
> 
> I was like, yeah, 5 business closing is headline news. I went into the city to visit my Mom. Within the 2 block area of her apartment, there're more than 5 business closed permanently. City wide? I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than 500!


I wouldn't be surprised at all, if say 5+ years from now, when we are looking back at what this last roughly yearish timeframe has been, that while the actual casualties from COVID will be the primary tragic item that people focus on, that the secondary effects from loss of business and all that psychological effects that surround that, to the effects on school aged kids, to the general psychological effects will be as significant, if not more, for many more people around the world than the death toll.

What that all will mean for society as a whole in how we view things, and those who we elect to lead us, remains to be seen


----------



## 1dog (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Why do you think he's the only one who survived from Obama to Trump and actually outlast Trump?
> 
> Even Trump's own appointees gets fired or forced to resign when they don't say what he want to hear. Once he made up his mind one way, science or no science no longer matter.
> 
> ...


It happens via osmosis - many top generals left during the Obama years once they saw his apology tour take place and the ideals change regarding US military.  

Nowhere near perfect, but we've saved countless countries from tyranny and oppression. Then we helped rebuild them and defended them for 75 years. Now, we're ( more than) broke and those countries were asked to take it on themselves. It's all going to change very, very fast. Globalists will ensure that.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Why do you think he's the only one who survived from Obama to Trump and actually outlast Trump?





abc said:


> Why do you think he's the only one who survived from Obama to Trump and actually outlast Trump?


You do know he was originally brought in by Ronnie Raygun to blame AIDS on gay men?

being a political hack through 30 years you learn to blow in the wind

that is not the greatest compliment you can give someone who is supposed to be all about “the science”


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> You do know he was originally brought in by Ronnie Raygun to blame AIDS on gay men?
> 
> being a political hack through 30 years you learn to blow in the wind
> 
> that is not the greatest compliment you can give someone who is supposed to be all about “the science”


It's a political position for a former scientist/doctor/whatever. Whether they like the "anti-compliment" or not, it's a job that requires some level of political savvy. That job has always been to bridge the gap for the politician who are not expected to learn all about the subject matter. 

As long as the politician has no other agenda, the "bridge" can be impartial. But yeah, they fully expect to be used as justification when the politician has such needs. That's why some people don't want to be in that kind of position.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> It's a political position for a former scientist/doctor/whatever. Whether they like the "anti-compliment" or not, it's a job that requires some level of political savvy. THE Job has always been to bridge the gap for the politician who are not expected to learn all about the subject matter.


Still not inspiring much confidence in a guy who appears to be more than happy out there spreading his brand of “Science”.

I think I will stick with one mask


----------



## Puck it (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Still not inspiring much confidence in a guy who appears to be more than happy out there spreading his brand of “Science”.
> 
> I think I will stick with one mask


He has not done any real science work in years.


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

Puck it said:


> He has not done any real science work in years.


I don't think it's compatible to do "real science" and still be an advisor to the president and/or head of whatever organization. The administration work precludes spending much time in "real science".

I've seen this when I was in research. The "figure heads" aren't doing the "real science". But typically they come from the same background as the scientist. So they're the one who can understand the science the "real scientists" do and relate to non-scientist. If you ever listen to many of the "real" scientists, you can't make sense out of what they say. Most don't want to talk to the non-scientist anyway.

It's an illusion any of government agency head are "real" of anything in the line of work the agency represents/oversees. On the other hand, the old saying is quite often true that "they may forgot more than you've ever know" in their (albeit former) field of expertise.

I won't bother with double mask either.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't think it's compatible to do "real science" and still be an advisor to the president and/or head of whatever organization. The administration work precludes spending much time in "real science".
> 
> I've seen this when I was in research. The "figure heads" aren't doing the "real science". But typically they come from the same background as the scientist. So they're the one who can understand the science the "real scientists" do and relate to non-scientist. If you ever listen to many of the "real" scientists, you can't make sense out of what they say. Most don't want to talk to the non-scientist anyway.
> 
> ...


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't think it's compatible to do "real science" and still be an advisor to the president and/or head of whatever organization. The administration work precludes spending much time in "real science".
> 
> I've seen this when I was in research. The "figure heads" aren't doing the "real science". But typically they come from the same background as the scientist. So they're the one who can understand the science the "real scientists" do and relate to non-scientist. If you ever listen to many of the "real" scientists, you can't make sense out of what they say. Most don't want to talk to the non-scientist anyway.
> 
> ...


So he is a career politician i get that

why do so many people (feels like you do) want to put so much weight in what he says when he clearly hasnt been consistent or only “about science?”


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> why do so many people (feels like you do) want to put so much weight in what he says


Because what he said was still closer to the truth than the rest of the non-scientist, or worse, the crackpot "scientist" who aren't even related to the specialty they are in. 



> when he clearly hasnt been consistent or only “aTbout science?”


I don't take his word as gospel. In fact, I don't even pay that much attention to the "science" part of what he said. I can find my own source. I pay more attention to what he said may NOT happen, which is a whole lot more realistic than the President's wishful thinking! So no churches in Easter, no "back to normal" before summer...

He may not know everything, but he knows what is NOT true. That's sometimes far more important than what's true, which in this pandemic, nobody actually knows. Sometimes, it's what the "experts" NOT say that's more important than what they say. I knew all along his no-mask recommendation was hogwash. So is his 2-mask recommendation. And even the 1-mask recommendation, if you actually listen, it's not to protect the wearer, but to protect those around the wearer. 

Bottom line, I don't put weight on his science. I read between the lines of his "politically correct" statements. When those are contradictory to the administration, I know we're getting into a much bigger mess than what the politicians care to admit. 

But one last bit. People talk about "consistent". That's dead wrong! The virus change. So anyone who insist on being "consistent" will lose! It's like asking to be "consistent" about when the snow will fall from 1 week out to 1 day out. Most of the "consistent" forecasts are way off! Only the ones that updates constantly, aka "inconsistent" ones, are closer to "right".


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Getting fired would have been a better alternative



Maybe not, he'd lose that cushy government salary that he doesn't deserve


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Maybe not, he'd lose that cushy government salary that he doesn't deserve


You're assuming he can't get another equally cushy job with some fuzzy "think tank"! You really don't know what it's all about.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> You're assuming he can't get another equally cushy job with some fuzzy "think tank"! You really don't know what it's all about.


Would have to agree
He is now an “icon”


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> You're assuming he can't get another equally cushy job with some fuzzy "think tank"! You really don't know what it's all about.


If you don't think Fauci is enjoying having the power and influence that he currently has, as well as being constantly fawned over by the media and the majority of the country, and that he'd be giving all of that up if he went to the private sector, then it's you that doesn't know what it's all about


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> If you don't think Fauci isn't enjoying having the power and influence that he currently has, as well as being constantly fawned over by the media and the majority of the country, and that he'd be giving all of that up if he went to the private sector, then it's you that doesn't know what it's all about


His celebrity status is here to stay I am afraid


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> If you don't think Fauci is enjoying having the power and influence that he currently has, as well as being constantly fawned over by the media and the majority of the country, and that he'd be giving all of that up if he went to the private sector, then it's you that doesn't know what it's all about


Government salary, however "cushy" in your eyes, are peanuts compare to private section! 

No, you don't know what it's all about.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Government salary, however "cushy" in your eyes, are peanuts compare to private section!
> 
> No, you don't know what it's all about.



Fauci makes $417,000 per year.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 18, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Fauci makes $417,000 per year.


Would make millions speaking on the lecture circuit


----------



## NYDB (Feb 18, 2021)

Or easy 5m a year as pharmaceutical lobbyist.  

+unlimited expense account.   Which is nice.


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Or easy 5m a year as pharmaceutical lobbyist.
> 
> +unlimited expense account.   Which is nice.


Yep! The great revolving door. 

I just had one of my cycling buddy took a (effective) pay cut to work in the government. He figure he'll get a decent boost to his earning after a couple years in "service". As he'll be "recognized" as knowing the "inner working" of the fed, which apparently is highly prized.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 18, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> So he is a career politician i get that
> 
> why do so many people (feels like you do) want to put so much weight in what he says when he clearly hasnt been consistent or only “about science?”



The sooner that folks realize that regardless of one's political ideological leanings that the vast majority of politicians are underneath it all more about spewing BS to keep them in good grades with those that either appointed them, keep them in their appointed positions, or if they're elected to generate campaign funds to keep them elected, the better this country will be.

This era of Caucus before Country, divide one another to concur, age of politics we're in is disgusting. And frankly, more often than not, if one thinks that the people they voted for aren't the problem, but the people that others voted for are the problem, that is the problem.


----------



## ScottySkis (Feb 18, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The sooner that folks realize that regardless of one's political ideological leanings that the vast majority of politicians are underneath it all more about spewing BS to keep them in good grades with those that either appointed them, keep them in their appointed positions, or if they're elected to generate campaign funds to keep them elected, the better this country will be.
> 
> This era of Caucus before Country, divide one another to concur, age of politics we're in is disgusting. And frankly, more often than not, if one thinks that the people they voted for aren't the problem, but the people that others voted for are the problem, that is the problem.


+1+00+000000


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Government salary, however "cushy" in your eyes, are peanuts compare to private section!
> 
> No, you don't know what it's all about.


You seem to be unable to understand the concept of somebody who's already a rich man with tons of power and influence and a tv star-like popularity not wanting to give all that up to be a slightly richer rich man


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> You seem to be unable to understand the concept of somebody who's already a rich man with tons of power and influence and a tv star-like popularity not wanting to give all that up to be a slightly richer rich man


That's Fauci?


----------



## ScottySkis (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> That's Fauci?


Tommy

It is for sure
Stop watching only 1 news network


----------



## drjeff (Feb 19, 2021)

After next Tuesday, Feb 23rd, if you're +14 days or more from your 2nd vaccination dose, you will now be free to travel to/from VT without restrictions! 









						Scott to loosen restrictions for long-term care facilities, travelers
					

The governor will ease some travel and long-term facility visitation restrictions next week for fully-vaccinated individuals.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## Not Sure (Feb 21, 2021)

COVISTIX/COVIMARK - Sorrento Therapeutics
					

COVISTIX™ and COVIMARK™* (Antigen Test for the Detection of SARS-CoV-2 Virus in Nasal Swab) SIMPLE: 3-step test procedure RAPID:  Produces Results in 15 minutes or less CONVENIENT: Nasal swab with simple 3 step instructions and visible read ACCURATE: Highly sensitive platinum colloid-based...




					sorrentotherapeutics.com
				




Hopefully these will be out soon ! UPS Pilots testing them .


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 22, 2021)

So we were skiing on Sunday at Nashoba, Everyone seemed to adhere to the face mask policy in the lift line.  After a few runs I was getting prety hot since it was like 35 out and full sun.  On the lift I was with my wife only so I would take my mask off.  A liftie saw it and wanted me to mask up of the lift.  I did not get the reason for that.  In the end I would take in down a few times on the way up to cool down and always had it on off the lift.  Then I took it off while skiing.  Then back on before I got to the lift line.  On the lift you have to be 15 feet away if not more from the chairs in front and behind.  So the logic there does not register especially when there is a cross wind.

The restaurant was open and the cafeteria as well.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 22, 2021)

Mask off on the lift is only OK if you are alone.

 They have no idea that it's your wife on the chair w/ you....


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 22, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Mask off on the lift is only OK if you are alone.
> 
> They have no idea that it's your wife on the chair w/ you....


If I am on a lift with someone they need to assume they are from my pod shouldn’t they?


----------



## abc (Feb 22, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> If I am on a lift with someone they need to assume they are from my pod shouldn’t they?


Depends on the chair. You can have 2 unrelated singles on a quad.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 22, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> If I am on a lift with someone they need to assume they are from my pod shouldn’t they?


I do agee w/ you, BUT I believe their SOP is Masks are requied on lifts and in lines


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 22, 2021)

abc said:


> Depends on the chair. You can have 2 unrelated singles on a quad.


Regardless of the chair
If I am on a chair there is no reason to believe the person with me is uncomfortable of my mask status unless they are screaming from the chair
If they were that uptight they wouldn’t have loaded with me, a stranger
Use some common sense, 
I know, it’s not common.


----------



## SLyardsale (Feb 22, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I do agee w/ you, BUT I believe their SOP is Masks are requied on lifts and in lines


maybe it was festival.  But now he must see Landru.  He is not of the body. You can't resist the will of Landru.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Regardless of the chair
> If I am on a chair there is no reason to believe the person with me is uncomfortable of my mask status unless they are screaming from the chair
> If they were that uptight they wouldn’t have loaded with me, a stranger
> Use some common sense,
> I know, it’s not common.



So they have to tell you that they are uncomfortable?  How about you just follow the rules and don’t put other people in that position.

You may not like the rules, but they are what they are.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I do agee w/ you, BUT I believe their SOP is Masks are requied on lifts and in lines





VTKilarney said:


> So they have to tell you that they are uncomfortable?  How about you just follow the rules and don’t put other people in that position.
> 
> You may not like the rules, but they are what they are.


I only ride with pod members
Based on the number of half full chairs while lines are long indicates most people are too


----------



## cdskier (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I only ride with pod members
> Based on the number of half full chairs while lines are long indicates most people are too


A half full chair still doesn't mean the people are together. I've ridden a number of quad chairs this year with a complete stranger. Two of us on opposite sides of a chair means that chair is half loaded. So simply looking at the number of people on a chair tells you nothing about whether most people are riding chairs with only people they know.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> A half full chair still doesn't mean the people are together. I've ridden a number of quad chairs this year with a complete stranger. Two of us on opposite sides of a chair means that chair is half loaded. So simply looking at the number of people on a chair tells you nothing about whether most people are riding chairs with only people they know.


Not if you weren’t comfortable you wouldn’t have to
If I am asked I decline no matter who asks. Have had patrollers asked and have declined.
Sorry, I don’t know you means I don’t ride with you this year.
PS I give patrollers the right of next chair.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Not if you weren’t comfortable you wouldn’t have to
> If I am asked I decline no matter who asks. Have had patrollers asked and have declined.
> Sorry, I don’t know you means I don’t ride with you this year.
> PS I give patrollers the right of next chair.



Yes, but that wasn't my point at all. Just because you say no doesn't mean others do. Therefore you have no idea whether people are "together" or not just because they're on the same chair. Hence a lifty or patroller simply looking at a chair can't assume people know each other and rightly should tell people to put their mask on if they see it off if the rules at that resort state masks must be worn on lifts.

FWIW, I did say no this weekend once. A group of 2 wanted to get on a quad chair with me. I'm ok with another single getting on since there would be 2 empty seats between us, but only 1 empty seat was too close for my comfort.

Your take on this is a bit odd and contradictory. On the one hand you're using the rule that allows you to not ride with others if you don't want to (which I'm perfectly fine with you doing). Yet on the other hand you're saying the rule about wearing a mask on a lift shouldn't be enforced as employees should simply assume everyone on a chair knows each other. Shouldn't we advocate enforcing/following all rules and not just the ones you personally like/feel comfortable with?

I also don't agree with your assertion that someone uncomfortable with someone else on a chair taking off their mask would say something. When I get on a chair with someone else, I assume they're going to follow the rules and be respectful of others. However I'm not going to be confrontational if someone did take it off when I'm in a confined space on a chair with that person with nowhere to go.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes, but that wasn't my point at all. Just because you say no doesn't mean others do. Therefore you have no idea whether people are "together" or not just because they're on the same chair. Hence a lifty or patroller simply looking at a chair can't assume people know each other and rightly should tell people to put their mask on if they see it off if the rules at that resort state masks must be worn on lifts.
> 
> FWIW, I did say no this weekend once. A group of 2 wanted to get on a quad chair with me. I'm ok with another single getting on since there would be 2 empty seats between us, but only 1 empty seat was too close for my comfort.
> 
> ...


I think riding a chair alone verse riding a 4 with an unknown regardless of their mask status is safer. A six pack maybe but doubtful.
Why would you put yourself in the position of getting on a chair with an unknown and taking the chance they won’t behave as you want them too?


----------



## drjeff (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I think riding a chair alone verse riding a 4 with an unknown regardless of their mask status is safer. A six pack maybe but doubtful.
> Why would you put yourself in the position of getting on a chair with an unknown and taking the chance they won’t behave as you want them too?



Serious question for you.  How many cases of spread, while riding a chairlift, or even standing in a lift line for that matter, have been documented?

I am unaware of any.

The key seems to be outdoors, some distance between people (regardless of if they are or aren't from the same party of people), and airflow.

Ski resort related outbreaks sure seem to be from the after skiing bar/party gatherings as opposed to the actual act of skiing/riding.

Case in point, the state of VT did on site rapid testing for those who wished to be tested at both Stratton and Bromley 2 Saturdays ago. Apparently there were 3 positives out of all the tests they did. You don't hear about the state of VT looking to quarantine the general public who may of been in the area where the testing was done.

There is plenty about this disease process that brings one's own personal comfort level with risk into the equation of how they go about their lives. There have also been so much information put out there by so many sources that frankly has been either false, or presented in an "absolutely worst cases scenario possible" way, something which is likely as probable as say being struck by lightening, for it to happen.  2 unrelated parties on a quad, or heck, even a triple, mask up or mask down, for the time it takes a typical lift to travel from its base terminal to its top terminal is probably of lower transmission risk than going to the grocery store. We have to keep the big picture perspective in mind, or else we will never get past this and get back to something close to "normal" again.  The simple truth is that 20 years from now, there will still be people passing away from the COVID-19 virus, just like there are still today people passing away from the H1N1 virus, it will just be in very low numbers. That is just the realities of viruses, once they're here, they don't go away, and eventually we are able to control them enough so that the fatalities they cause are very minimal


----------



## Domeskier (Feb 23, 2021)

At this point in the pandemic, I generally assume some idiot who refuses to wear a mask already has antibodies from previous exposure and is probably safe.  Nevertheless, I still refuse to ride the lift with strangers and ski only at night when the lifts are basically ski on.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Serious for you.  How many cases of spread, while riding a chairlift, or even standing in a lift line for that matter, have been documented?
> 
> I am unaware of any.
> 
> ...


We are on the same page
Like you I assume 0 cases have been transmitted outdoors on ski hills.

I like to take my mask down when riding the lift
Me riding alone has more to do with me not wanting to upset someone than it does worrying about my safety. The other point is you have to be comfortable so take control. 
If you don’t want to take the chance of being in a chair with someone who would rather ride maskless assume that the other party feels this way and not vice versa. 
If you don’t want to wear a mask on the lift assume the other unknown party will get upset and ride single. 
We can choose this year and no one should get upset with you no matter your choice (on the lift.) Next year a assume I will be bitching loudly if I see empty chairs going up and I am in a long line.

This country is in for a rude awakening when we figure out how badly we have handled this.
My take is 2-3 years down the road it will be clear.


----------



## Andrew B. (Feb 23, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> At this point in the pandemic, I generally assume some idiot who refuses to wear a mask already has antibodies from previous exposure and is probably safe.  Nevertheless, I still refuse to ride the lift with strangers and ski only at night when the lifts are basically ski on.


I assume nothing this year and act like any unknown is an idiot. 
Works for me but I am very jaded


----------



## tumbler (Feb 23, 2021)

I wonder how it is spreading in VT?








						Anti-mask demonstrators protest at Newport UPS Store
					

Anti-mask demonstrators on Monday protested outside a Newport UPS Store that is being sued by the state for violating the governor’s mask mandate.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 23, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I wonder how it is spreading in VT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



these guys lost their franchise because of ups' decision, not the state of Vermont. this has been a hot topic in the Vermont subreddit. the state didn't really do anything to them at all for months, then a few reddit threads took off, then ups revoked their franchise, and then the state took some action. but fundamentally, this is about a franchisee not following the rules set by the franchisor, and they deserved to lose their franchise. ups does not need to let them tarnish their brand. way to ruin your franchise business to own the libs!


----------



## jaytrem (Feb 23, 2021)

Now how is AnC Bio going to ship everything with the store being closed?


----------



## kbroderick (Feb 23, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Now how is AnC Bio going to ship everything with the store being closed?


They'll just make up tracking numbers.


----------



## kbroderick (Feb 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Serious question for you.  How many cases of spread, while riding a chairlift, or even standing in a lift line for that matter, have been documented?
> 
> I am unaware of any.
> 
> The key seems to be outdoors, some distance between people (regardless of if they are or aren't from the same party of people), and airflow.


Even in places with good contact-tracing programs (emphatically *not* the US), what's the success rate on identifying the source of infections? I've read less than 50%, (but that wasn't well-sourced, so I'd be happy to learn otherwise if that's the case).

Assuming even 20% of cases come from unidentified spread, let alone 50%, wouldn't it stand to reason that some of that percentage comes from activities that are lower-risk but not zero-risk and have *probably *been producing some cases, albeit at a low-enough rate that it makes tracking the exact source difficult or impossible?


----------



## abc (Feb 23, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Even in places with good contact-tracing programs (emphatically *not* the US), what's the success rate on identifying the source of infections? I've read less than 50%, (but that wasn't well-sourced, so I'd be happy to learn otherwise if that's the case).
> 
> Assuming even 20% of cases come from unidentified spread, let alone 50%, wouldn't it stand to reason that some of that percentage comes from activities that are lower-risk but not zero-risk and have *probably *been producing some cases, albeit at a low-enough rate that it makes tracking the exact source difficult or impossible?


Totally!

I've been struggling with how to think of those "less than 50%", in other words, "lower" transmission risk. That's why I'm doing everything I can to keep as much distance from people as I practically can. We just don't know.

I keep thinking about avalanche dangers. Some say, even the best got caught out. So no guarantee. But experience tells us if we practice safe bc travel, we minimize the risk without eliminate it completely. Well, Covid danger is kind of similar. We can't be 100% safe because there's that x% that we never figure out how it happened. But by following best practice, we remove those other risk we KNOW. We stay "safer" albeit not completely 100% safe. 

We know the virus is transmitted by breath. So more distance is safer. The shorter time in shared air space, also better. Keeping the mask on is like increasing the distance and reducing the time sharing air. If both party keep their mask on, that's twice the reduction of transmission potential.

I will share a chair if I see practically everyone is keeping their mask on while riding up. But if I see half the people taking their mask off, I'm not going to share chair with anyone else. And if that makes the line grow longer, that's just too bad. Or you all can choose to keep the mask on and we all get up the mountain just a bit sooner.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Regardless of the chair
> If I am on a chair there is no reason to believe the person with me is uncomfortable of my mask status unless they are screaming from the chair
> If they were that uptight they wouldn’t have loaded with me, a stranger
> Use some common sense,
> I know, it’s not common.


Huh?

I'm comfortable on a quad with a stranger if we are both masked. I am not comfortable on a quad with a stranger if they pull their last down on the ride.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 23, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> We are on the same page
> Like you I assume 0 cases have been transmitted outdoors on ski hills.
> 
> I like to take my mask down when riding the lift
> ...


i think we agree.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 25, 2021)

So VT wanted people to quarantine or attest to that if they wanted to ski.  Well the fact that you are at a resort with lots of people, probably eating out, getting food, etc,, is kind of nullifying the quarantine thing especially if you are there for a week long vacation?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 25, 2021)

yeah don't try to make sense of it...


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 25, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So VT wanted people to quarantine or attest to that if they wanted to ski.  Well the fact that you are at a resort with lots of people, probably eating out, getting food, etc,, is kind of nullifying the quarantine thing especially if you are there for a week long vacation?


DUH - You're supposed to Qtine BEFORE you go to the "resort".


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2021)

Whoa boy.....









						Vail Resorts Employee Arrested for Claiming “I Have a Gun” During Facemask Altercation In Lift-line
					

Realvail.com is reporting that an argument between an off-duty Vail Resorts employee and an on-duty employee over the wearing of a facemask ended with an arrest. The incident occurred at around 11 …




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## JimG. (Mar 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Whoa boy.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's just scary. Even if he didn't have a gun.

I don't want to ski with people like that.


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail Resorts Employee Arrested for Claiming “I Have a Gun” During Facemask Altercation In Lift-line
> 
> 
> Realvail.com is reporting that an argument between an off-duty Vail Resorts employee and an on-duty employee over the wearing of a facemask ended with an arrest. The incident occurred at around 11 …
> ...


Long liftlines and people threatening your life, what an “epic” experience.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 3, 2021)

Pennsylvania lifted official out of state travel restrictions March 1 if anybody cares, and Wolf is planning on relaxing official restaurant restrictions
Not that these were being enforced anyway but now it is official.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Mar 4, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I think riding a chair alone verse riding a 4 with an unknown regardless of their mask status is safer. A six pack maybe but doubtful.
> Why would you put yourself in the position of getting on a chair with an unknown and taking the chance they won’t behave as you want them too?











						Why I Believe that Covid Derangement Syndrome Is Real
					

"I believe this syndrome to be real and deserving of a name that grabs attention. Such attention-grabbing is warranted, because I further believe that this syndrome poses a dangerous risk to humanity that dwarfs the risk posed by SARS-CoV-2." ~ Donald J. Boudreaux




					www.aier.org


----------



## 1dog (Mar 5, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I wonder how it is spreading in VT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just lose weight helps a lot. I can't find Harvard or US study, 67% caused by obesity. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ds-thousands-Covid-19-deaths-says-report.html


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 5, 2021)

but what level of obesity.  The BMI calculations basically has you at obese unless you are rail thin.   A co worker of mine who is less over weight than me is getting the shot because per BMI he's "Obese"  I defintely qualify as obese, but am in decent shape and in my opinion lower risk than many other people who are having a hard time getting a vaccine (i.e. older people, etc).

I think that is bullshit.  to qualify for the obese category a Doctor should have to sign off on it.  This kid is in his mid 30s and pretty active.  highly doubt a doctor would sign off on him to take a shot from a higher risk person.  There is no way I'm taking a shot away from someone who is much more high risk than I.    

More evidence that this vaccine rollout is a mess...


----------



## 1dog (Mar 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> but what level of obesity.  The BMI calculations basically has you at obese unless you are rail thin.   A co worker of mine who is less over weight than me is getting the shot because per BMI he's "Obese"  I defintely qualify as obese, but am in decent shape and in my opinion lower risk than many other people who are having a hard time getting a vaccine (i.e. older people, etc).
> 
> I think that is bullshit.  to qualify for the obese category a Doctor should have to sign off on it.  This kid is in his mid 30s and pretty active.  highly doubt a doctor would sign off on him to take a shot from a higher risk person.  There is no way I'm taking a shot away from someone who is much more high risk than I.
> 
> More evidence that this vaccine rollout is a mess...


It's worse in MA - if you smoke and are obese - you get to cut the line.  Here is the study that says 67% https://justthenews.com/politics-po...-having-one-worlds-worst-covid-19-rates-study


----------



## NYDB (Mar 5, 2021)

On my way to get the vaccine now


----------



## Zand (Mar 5, 2021)

Massachusetts Now Exempt From Maine’s COVID Travel Restrictions – CBS Boston
					

Massachusetts is now on the exempt list of Maine's new travel policy, effective immediately.




					boston.cbslocal.com
				




Loaf/Saddleback trip time!


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2021)

Zand said:


> Massachusetts Now Exempt From Maine’s COVID Travel Restrictions – CBS Boston
> 
> 
> Massachusetts is now on the exempt list of Maine's new travel policy, effective immediately.
> ...


do you still have to quarantine when you get back to Mass?


----------



## Zand (Mar 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> do you still have to quarantine when you get back to Mass?


Sure.


----------



## tumbler (Mar 5, 2021)

Maybe it's time for VT to bring back the color coded county map showing which counties do not need to quarantine


----------



## Zand (Mar 5, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong but MA and VT are the only two states in America with "mandatory" interstate travel restrictions for travelers from any other state. California does it by county so they don't count at the state level.

It makes sense for VT...its a small state, cases have been low there, and there are very few hospitals. On the other hand, the case and death rates in MA are among the worst in the country yet the state thinks it's safer to be out amongst each other here than being in a state with way less cases.

IMO, NY has always made the most sense through this whole thing. And it's scary as hell to think that.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 5, 2021)

> Maybe it's time for VT to bring back the color coded county map showing which counties do not need to quarantine


So it could still show any counties with even a little bit of population between PA and ME are still Red?


----------



## Mum skier (Mar 5, 2021)

Zand said:


> Massachusetts Now Exempt From Maine’s COVID Travel Restrictions – CBS Boston
> 
> 
> Massachusetts is now on the exempt list of Maine's new travel policy, effective immediately.
> ...


Sunday River are already emailing their pass holders with the news!  Better book that accommodation for Easter weekend PDQ before the news gets out further!


----------



## JimG. (Mar 5, 2021)

Zand said:


> IMO, NY has always made the most sense through this whole thing. And it's scary as hell to think that.


Unless you or a loved one had the misfortune of living in a nursing home.


----------



## Zand (Mar 5, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Unless you or a loved one had the misfortune of living in a nursing home.


Yeah good point. I was going on the way they've handled travel restrictions/reopenings but that is a huge black eye. MA also screwed that up big time early on, eg: Holyoke.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 5, 2021)

Zand said:


> Yeah good point. I was going on the way they've handled travel restrictions/reopenings but that is a huge black eye. MA also screwed that up big time early on, eg: Holyoke.


Not much of a fan of the NY travel restrictions either. Cuomo let anyone from a contiguous state (VT, MA, CT, NJ, PA) come and go pretty much as they pleased but did not get reciprocal agreements from those states. So a lot of people came into NY as they pleased but nobody from NY was afforded the same courtesy.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 5, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Why I Believe that Covid Derangement Syndrome Is Real
> 
> 
> "I believe this syndrome to be real and deserving of a name that grabs attention. Such attention-grabbing is warranted, because I further believe that this syndrome poses a dangerous risk to humanity that dwarfs the risk posed by SARS-CoV-2." ~ Donald J. Boudreaux
> ...



You and I seem to disagree on many things, but this article is spot on. And calling it a derangement syndrome is accurate.

The fear mongering that continues is reprehensible as I have mentioned before.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 5, 2021)

Zand said:


> IMO, NY has always made the most sense through this whole thing. And it's scary as hell to think that.



Except for early on when they ignored federal guidance and allowed people to come freely in and out of NYC, the nation's first hotspot.  And let's not forget the nursing home debacle or the cover up of the nursing home debacle.  NY is at the bottom of any list of rankings for how they've handled things since March


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 5, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Maybe it's time for VT to bring back the color coded county map showing which counties do not need to quarantine


That will happen just as soon as ski season is over and they head into mud season


----------



## abc (Mar 5, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Except for early on when they ignored federal guidance and allowed people to come freely in and out of NYC, the nation's first hotspot.
> And let's not forget the nursing home debacle or the cover up of the nursing home debacle.  NY is at the bottom of any list of rankings for how they've handled things since March


What federal guideline?


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 5, 2021)

abc said:


> What federal guideline?


The 15 days to slow the spread/lockdown/stay at home/whatever you want to call it that came out mid march.


----------



## abc (Mar 5, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> The 15 days to slow the spread/lockdown/stay at home/whatever you want to call it that came out mid march.


You mean the 15 day quarantine "requirement" that was never enforced by any state???


----------



## Puck it (Mar 5, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> The 15 days to slow the spread/lockdown/stay at home/whatever you want to call it that came out mid march.


Or the month to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed.


----------



## Puck it (Mar 5, 2021)

abc said:


> What federal guideline?


OMG. Really.

15 days = 368 or so days.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 9, 2021)

Glad we aren't Italy









						Italian Ski Season Over as Government Shuts Resorts Until April 6th - SnowBrains
					

The season is now essentially over for a number of Italian ski resorts, as the region of Veneto, home to more than ten ski areas




					snowbrains.com
				




Not all resorts, but some major ones


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2021)

today is exactly one year since i last took the subway. monday will be one year of working from home.

i've always dealt with the annoyances of having a car in nyc for the skiing, but this past year it's been a lifeline for so many other things.


----------



## skef (Mar 13, 2021)

The whole your-car-is-your-base-lodge thing loses a bit of its charm when the parking lot turns to mud.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 13, 2021)

skef said:


> The whole your-car-is-your-base-lodge thing loses a bit of its charm when the parking lot turns to mud.View attachment 50904


lol that looks like my parking spot at Gore this past Wednesday!


----------



## ss20 (Mar 13, 2021)

skef said:


> The whole your-car-is-your-base-lodge thing loses a bit of its charm when the parking lot turns to mud.View attachment 50904



Yep.  At Berkshire East I went and found a puddle to wash off the bottoms of my ski boots after taking them off at the end of the day.  Just lovely.


----------



## urungus (Mar 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yep.  At Berkshire East I went and found a puddle to wash off the bottoms of my ski boots after taking them off at the end of the day.  Just lovely.



LOL, my experience exactly.  I need to do a better job of scouting out a dry spot in the parking lot.  Or maybe bring a small tarp.


----------



## abc (Mar 14, 2021)

The whole base area turning into mud happens for spring skiing every year. Not just an issue of Covid related "car as a lodge" phenomenon. 

In the summer, mountain that provides mountain biking offers hoses for people to wash the mud off their bikes. Mountains would do well by  offering the same for spring skiing too.


----------



## urungus (Mar 14, 2021)

abc said:


> The whole base area turning into mud happens for spring skiing every year. Not just an issue of Covid related "car as a lodge" phenomenon.



Difference is that this year, you cannot boot up in the lodge to avoid changing in the middle of a mud pit.


----------



## Killingtime (Mar 15, 2021)

urungus said:


> Difference is that this year, you cannot boot up in the lodge to avoid changing in the middle of a mud pit.


Ha! Saw a guy yesterday at Plattekill who laid out indoor/outdoor carpeting near his car to boot up. Had a folding chair for is wife and a small folding table to hold their gear. Dude was prepared.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 15, 2021)

Cooler, Hibachi, Folding Table & Chairs


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> Ha! Saw a guy yesterday at Plattekill who laid out indoor/outdoor carpeting near his car to boot up. Had a folding chair for is wife and a small folding table to hold their gear. Dude was prepared.


I have a Coleman grill, folding table and chairs. My buddy when he comes and its cold, brings a heater that screws right onto the top of a 20lbs propane tank. Blue tooth speak comes in handy and of course the yeti cooler.

Also have a large welcome mat to stand on. If i forget it wife uses the rubber floor mat


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

urungus said:


> Difference is that this year, you cannot boot up in the lodge to avoid changing in the middle of a mud pit.



Get a couple carpet samples and put them on the ground.  In the spring we do that and bring folding chairs, a cooler, coleman grill, and crank the tunes to compete with all the other music in the parking lot.  We have an SUV so it is easy to unload or even hang out.


----------



## MG Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

I built a perch to boot up on so when I sit on my tailgate of the F-150 I can put my boots on. Doubles as a lunch table!


----------



## Razor (Mar 16, 2021)

We've removed the middle seats in our 2018 Sienna, so we can sit in the 3rd row bench seat and boot up inside out of the cold.


----------



## keyser soze (Mar 16, 2021)

We used to have minivans and have thought they would be perfect for this year just as you said with middle seats removed.


----------



## jimk (Mar 16, 2021)

`This is the set-up I used during a recent three week visit to SLC/Snowbird:  park at a choice of several favored ski-on/ski-off locations (this one is bypass road near Peruvian lift), always boot-up at car using folding green camp chair shown at right, return to car for lunch using green cooler bag in center and blue folding chair to left.







Say what you will about LCC traffic, but as long as you're not there during a big powder frenzy it all works quite smoothly.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 16, 2021)

jimk said:


> `This is the set-up I used during a recent three week visit to SLC/Snowbird:  park at a choice of several favored ski-on/ski-off locations (this one is bypass road near Peruvian lift), always boot-up at car using folding green camp chair shown at right, return to car for lunch using green cooler bag in center and blue folding chair to right.View attachment 50923
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will say that your are in a mirrored world


----------



## Killingtime (Mar 16, 2021)

jimk said:


> `This is the set-up I used during a recent three week visit to SLC/Snowbird:  park at a choice of several favored ski-on/ski-off locations (this one is bypass road near Peruvian lift), always boot-up at car using folding green camp chair shown at right, return to car for lunch using green cooler bag in center and blue folding chair to right.View attachment 50923
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dig the Mad River shirt.


----------



## Dickc (Mar 17, 2021)

Just got my vaccination.  I also got the J&J vax.  Will be 77% in two weeks, and 85% after four weeks. J&J also included data on one variant which may explain the lower efficacy, as the other two never tested against the variants.  So two weeks and I have my "Freedom" from people who think we need to hunker down and quarantine and all that.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 17, 2021)

Congrats!


----------



## Zand (Mar 18, 2021)

If anyone actually gave a shit, Massachusetts will no longer "require" travel form and quarantine starting Monday.

I guess it feels nice to "legally" go to Maine this weekend after "illegally" going out of state like 40 times in the past 6 months.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 18, 2021)

i just bought tickets to see the disco biscuits in new haven in June in a tennis stadium. the seating chart where you pick your tickets shows how they are distancing. basically tix are in pods of 2 or 4 and are super far from any other pods. so my girlfriend and i have our own row with no one in the rows in front of and behind us. i saw the biscuits at a drive in concert back in October, which was definitely strange. i don't know if drive in will be stranger than super large venue at ~20% capacity. but i'm stoked that concerts are starting to be a thing again. drive in show was kinda wild. shitshow of booze and substances when everyone there can just drive onto the concert field. minimal security peak into the car and opening of coolers. easily evaded.


----------



## urungus (Mar 18, 2021)

Zand said:


> If anyone actually gave a shit, Massachusetts will no longer "require" travel form and quarantine starting Monday.
> 
> I guess it feels nice to "legally" go to Maine this weekend after "illegally" going out of state like 40 times in the past 6 months.



Great news!  So if I understand correctly, starting Monday, people living in Mass are free to travel to New Hampshire, Maine, and New York (but not Vermont, unless you have been vaccinated).  Is that right ?   I’m closing in on 50 days at Berkshire East so a change of scenery would be nice.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 18, 2021)

urungus said:


> Great news!  So if I understand correctly, starting Monday, people living in Mass are free to travel to New Hampshire, Maine, and New York (but not Vermont, unless you have been vaccinated).  Is that right ?   I’m closing in on 50 days at Berkshire East so a change of scenery would be nice.


Took a few runs(12) this morning at the BEast before the rain moved in. 33 and raining not much fun. The glades look like they could be fun there.


----------



## parahelia (Mar 18, 2021)

Zand said:


> If anyone actually gave a shit, Massachusetts will no longer "require" travel form and quarantine starting Monday.
> 
> I guess it feels nice to "legally" go to Maine this weekend after "illegally" going out of state like 40 times in the past 6 months.


It's about damn time! 

We have kids in school in MA M/Tu so have had to come back from Maine by 5pm Saturdays to get tested in time for school, effectively limiting us to trips over longer breaks.  Each day we had to file a formal attestation that we hadn't been out of state or proof of negative test results, they weren't messing around.  Too bad the season's almost over, but at least spring skiing will be free of that particular hassle.


----------



## Mum skier (Mar 18, 2021)

parahelia said:


> It's about damn time!
> 
> We have kids in school in MA M/Tu so have had to come back from Maine by 5pm Saturdays to get tested in time for school, effectively limiting us to trips over longer breaks.  Each day we had to file a formal attestation that we hadn't been out of state or proof of negative test results, they weren't messing around.  Too bad the season's almost over, but at least spring skiing will be free of that particular hassle.


Also happy about this for the kids. 
Its one thing for adults to tell a little white lie (just sometimes...) but thinking the kids would have to is different! As soon as Maine opened up for MA visitors I booked the long Easter weekend as our kids do alternate weeks at school and were scheduled to be off the following week which allowed us time for quarantine or testing. Then schools announced that elementary go back full time right after Easter.  So was faced with cancelling or keeping them out til tested or fibbing. Today was the last day I could cancel the accommodation and just lose the booking fee. Within 14 days no refund.
So that’s great timing for us!


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 22, 2021)

28 hours after vaccine shot and card I feeling fine I know few people on Facebook having bad side effects I think my constant drinking water helps big time


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 22, 2021)

We vaccinated over 2,400  (all w/ Pfizer) and learned pretty quickly to tell folks to Hydrate really well and take Ibuprofen day of & day after 2nd dose.

 Just about the worst Post Vacc reaction I've seen so far was my own wife. In bed for 3 days, Fever, Chills, totally wiped out....


----------



## flakeydog (Apr 22, 2021)

Dose 2 had an effect on me. I have not been sick in years, never react to meds, etc. luckily it was short lived. Tired the night  post vax and felt like crap the morning after but was able to rally and ski that afternoon even though I still felt a bit out of sorts. Totally fine the next day.  I’m just happy I am vaccinated (and many others too). Well worth it in my opinion.


----------



## Pez (Apr 23, 2021)

Got my first dose of moderna yesterday.  i couldn't stay awake by 930 last night.  feel a little off today but so far no big deal.


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Dose 2 had an effect on me. I have not been sick in years, never react to meds, etc. luckily it was short lived. Tired the night  post vax and felt like crap the morning after but was able to rally and ski that afternoon even though I still felt a bit out of sorts. Totally fine the next day.  I’m just happy I am vaccinated (and many others too). Well worth it in my opinion.


Dose 2 of Moderna wrecked me. Had a fever and body aches for a solid 20 hours.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> Dose 2 of Moderna wrecked me. Had a fever and body aches for a solid 20 hours.


Pretty much the same for me too but I was able to function and WFH.  Symptoms started 18-20 hours after the shot and lasted a day.  Some advil helped with the aches.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Dose 2 had an effect on me. I have not been sick in years, never react to meds, etc. luckily it was short lived. Tired the night  post vax and felt like crap the morning after but was able to rally and ski that afternoon even though I still felt a bit out of sorts. Totally fine the next day.  I’m just happy I am vaccinated (and many others too). Well worth it in my opinion.


I was fortunate enough that with both doses of Moderna I got, all I had was some injection site soreness for a couple of days (actually less with dose 2 than dose 1) and my wife was the same way.  My 17yr old daughter just got her 1st Pfizer dose this past Tuesday and had the same, just injection site soreness, thing thus far.

With my office staff of 12 total, the majority were just injection site soreness with both moderna doses. We had 1 staffer, who had had COVID back in mid November, get feverish and just feeling fatigued with both doses for a couple of days. And with the 2nd dose, a few of my hygienists who only had injection site soreness with dose 1, had some mild hot flash/chills thermocycling during the 1st 6-12 hrs after dose 2 that they didn't have after dose 1, however as one of them put it to me, "I'm not sure if they were from the vaccine or my normal peri-menopausal hot flash cycles!   "

The vast majority of friends, family members, and patients I have asked how their own vaccination experiences went, and they have involved Moderna, Pfizer, and the J&J vaccines, have overwhelmingly (greater than 2/3rds) been just injection site soreness, and then the others just some generally mild thermocycling or fatigue feelings for 24 hrs or so, and a few (probably less than 10 out of about 200 or so as I recall) feeling quite flu like and just wanting to stay in bed for a couple of days after


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 23, 2021)

same here.  I do know 2 of my friends got J&J and had 102 fevers for a day and a half.  No known previous diagnosis of COVID.  They were miserable to the point where they both said if this is going to happen with a booster in the future they might not get it...


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2021)

The wife had her 2nd PFE shot yesterday at 12:40pm.  She was fine until she woke up about 3am saying she felt awful & she's been sleeping all day.   Ironically that's a good sign, it means the body is reactive to the spike protein.


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