# Virginia Tech shooting



## ALLSKIING (Dec 8, 2011)

Again??

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-virginia-tech-campus-lockdown-183115715.html


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## Bumpsis (Dec 8, 2011)

Another gift from NRA. They just keep coming.


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## Nick (Dec 9, 2011)

That sucks.....


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## Glenn (Dec 9, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> Another gift from NRA. They just keep coming.



C'mon now. Seriously? :roll:


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## Bumpsis (Dec 9, 2011)

Glenn said:


> C'mon now. Seriously? :roll:



I'm afraid so. I can't tell if you're goading me on, but just in case you really doubt that the gun industry's their lobby's most ardent task is to make guns super easy to get by anyone, just look at the long list of the gun lobby's actions to that purpose.  NRA being chief among them, is the criminal's best friend.


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## ctenidae (Dec 9, 2011)

If rocket launchers are illegal, then only criminals will have rocket launchers.

/want a rocket launcher


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## Warp Daddy (Dec 9, 2011)

Absolutely terrible , what VT has endured again and yet another graphic illustration of the inability to protect society from the lunatic fringe regardless of the amount of precaution taken . 

Public funding declines and attitudinal  declines for maintaining  inpatient facilities for the mentally disabled has led to a very dangerous situation on the streets and byways of all our communities .

 This situation of turning the mentally ill out on the street coupled with the degree of illegal drugs being dealt on the street has changed the face of our society for the worse .  

Many formerly gentile neighborhoods are suffering from outrageously dangerous incidents that revolve around these issues .

Change must happen soon ,  even gated communities are no longer safe.


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## Glenn (Dec 9, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> I'm afraid so. I can't tell if you're goading me on, but just in case you really doubt that the gun industry's their lobby's most ardent task is to make guns super easy to get by anyone, just look at the long list of the gun lobby's actions to that purpose.  NRA being chief among them, is the criminal's best friend.



I've got my pistol permit and it was far from an "easy" process. I had to sit through a day long course, then wait a few weeks while the cheif of police in my town approved it. To get my permit, I also had to pass a background check. When I went out to buy a pistol, I had pass another background and wait a number of days. I think a lot of folks need to look at and understand what it takes to legally obtain a pistol before starting to rag on the NRA or other organizations. This isn't like going to your local 7-11 and picking up a gallon of milk.


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## Nick (Dec 9, 2011)

My wife and I both have Class A LTC. 

I think it's horrible but the bottom line is, I don't know if it's ever possible to completely eliminate mass murders. If you've got in in your head to kill, you will find a way. Wasn't there a big shooting in Germany a few years back, and they have very strict gun control. 

Anyway, not interested in making this a for or against gun control post. Bottom line is it's a tragedy that someone was killed, and particularly more sensitive on the fact that this happened at a school that just endured a tragedy like this recently. Thoughts go out to the victims, and for those at Virginia Tech, who must be at the end of their ropes...


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## hammer (Dec 9, 2011)

Nick said:


> My wife and I both have Class A LTC.
> 
> I think it's horrible but the bottom line is, I don't know if it's ever possible to completely eliminate mass murders. If you've got in in your head to kill, you will find a way. Wasn't there a big shooting in Germany a few years back, and they have very strict gun control.
> 
> Anyway, not interested in making this a for or against gun control post. Bottom line is it's a tragedy that someone was killed, and particularly more sensitive on the fact that this happened at a school that just endured a tragedy like this recently. Thoughts go out to the victims, and for those at Virginia Tech, who must be at the end of their ropes...


What kind of training did you have to have to get the LTCs?

My main concern is that there are too many people out there who own firearms that are not properly trained in how to use them.

Just read that the shooter in this case was not a student.


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## bigbog (Dec 9, 2011)

What gets me is the "nearby"?(thought I heard reported) motorist....didn't lift a damn finger to either hit or flatten the moron after he shot the officer that was  in his vehicle = habits are more like calling security first to report a shooting.   I guess the  probable scenario would be = he'd hit or flatten the shooter, then if the shooter lives...shooter's lawyer then sues motorist for all the $$$ he has....OR if shooter dies = motorist that likely saves others from being shot then goes to prison for a decade or two...   Legalskier/anyone please tell me I'm wayyy off....  *I'm being sarcastic a bit about the motorist doing prison time, but I'm tired of seeing everyone so afraid of their 100% well-being when opportunities to subdue shooters exist before they face totally unaware/unprotected bystanders/students.

$.01


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## Northernflight (Dec 10, 2011)

> What gets me is the "nearby"?(thought I heard reported) motorist....didn't lift a damn finger to either hit or flatten the moron after he shot the officer that was in his vehicle = habits are more like calling security first to report a shooting. I guess the probable scenario would be = he'd hit or flatten the shooter, then if the shooter lives...shooter's lawyer then sues motorist for all the $$$ he has....OR if shooter dies = motorist that likely saves others from being shot then goes to prison for a decade or two... Legalskier/anyone please tell me I'm wayyy off....



The kid was probably scared from just witnessing someone shoot the officer who pulled him over and if he went after the shooter with his car he could have just as easily been shot at or worse, given the location of the incident, harmed someone else by trying to drive onto a sidewalk to intentionally kill someone. The police responded a minute after reports of the firing was called in. Within hours we had most every Virginia State trooper and swat teams not to mention dozens of other law enforcement agencies on campus.

I am a second year student at VT and I can tell you this incident was way to real. April 16th happened before I even considered Tech as a school but this day brought up many fears of what might occur by its end. At the first alert there was some concern, the campus locked down and the emergency system worked effectively to inform everyone of what has going on, but I and many others did not know if this was real or not, we have had some false alarms or alerts that have not materialized into anything but as soon as a second alert went out stating that someone had been shot, you knew this was real. There were reports about people hearing gunfire across campus, I sat all day watching the news and hearing reports from them and from Virginia Tech via text, they updated us every 30 min, about swat teams moving into our student center and library. At one point CNN had reported a third victim and all day long I was getting calls and sending them, everyone was trying to make sure their friends and loved ones were safe. We feared the worst, especially when we found out the two people who had been shot were dead, and could do nothing but wait and watch and pray that the Virginia law enforcement agency's could take control of the situation, prevent anything from happening, and protect everyone in our community. I think everyone breathed a sigh of relief when this all ended and most in our community had been safe, most because we had lost a member  who swore to protect us and lost his life in the line of duty. 

I had a friend who was in the greenhouses when the tragic incident occurred, who walked unknowingly by the shooter as he fled the scene and witnessed as Virginia Tech police tried to revive one of their own, one of our own. I am thankful this tragedy did not unfold onto a larger spectrum but I am also heartbroken over the loss of Officer Crouse. 

When I tell most people I go to Virginia Tech the first thing they ask about is the April 16th shootings. We did not ask to be defined by and will not be defined by these tragedies. Virgina Tech is so much more, we are a community. Many news articles I have read have taken quotes from school officials in referring to the word Hokie as meaning our school sports team or mascot but that is wrong. Hokie is the community not just a sports team or identity, it is us, it is our community, it is thousands of students gathering to honor a great person who should still be with us today,  and most people cant understand that and no one, not even I, can explain it. 

I keep seeing people discussing these online articles and calling Tech unsafe, not here, and to them I say I have never felt safer anywhere else than in Blacksburg and on Campus, even today. There has been too many tragedies occurring of late but know that we are not a tragedy, we are not a sports team, we are not even just a school, we are a community and we will hold light in our hands and in our hearts to remember and Never Forget.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> I'm afraid so. *I can't tell if you're goading me on*, but just in case you really doubt that the gun industry's their lobby's most ardent task is to make guns super easy to get by anyone, just look at the long list of the gun lobby's actions to that purpose.  NRA being chief among them, is the criminal's best friend.



Wait, so you make some random silly NRA comment, then follow it up with the second NRA comment, (which is far more moronic than the first comment), then you accuse _HIM_ of "goading you on"?  

 Cool story bro!


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## C-Rex (Dec 10, 2011)

Nuff said.


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## Bumpsis (Dec 10, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I've got my pistol permit and it was far from an "easy" process. I had to sit through a day long course, then wait a few weeks while the cheif of police in my town approved it. To get my permit, I also had to pass a background check. When I went out to buy a pistol, I had pass another background and wait a number of days. I think a lot of folks need to look at and understand what it takes to legally obtain a pistol before starting to rag on the NRA or other organizations. This isn't like going to your local 7-11 and picking up a gallon of milk.



First of all, I’d like to be on the record that I have absolutely no problem with guns in hands of responsible people.
 I have huge issues with illegal guns and the ease with which these find their way into hands of people who really should not have them. And for that we have NRA to thank for.

The process that you described is precisely the kind of a procedure that one should go through to prove to the society at large that are you can be trusted and  capable of using the deadly weapon in lawful way and knowledgeable enough to exercise good judgment  with respect to the gun’s use. I know that gun owners grumble about the process but these barriers do keep at least some real knuckle heads from getting a gun and a legal way of carrying it.
Law abiding people will always have access to guns and self protection, despite the gun lobby’s propaganda.

My state (MA) has similar laws in place and I’m glad for it. It is however a real tragedy that very few states do have these common sense laws on the books.  States that do not, as already witnessed at V. Tech in 2007 are more prone to tragic outcomes.

For instance, I really doubt that Seung-Hiu Cho (V. tech shooter on 2007) would have been able to get a gun permit here in MA. A local sheriff, just like in CT has to approve a gun permit just to buy the weapon. Prior to that, the kid would have to pass a certification course. In other words, there were at least two more screens before the NICS background check that Cho would have to pass in order to buy a weapon. As seen, the NICS system is far from being fully effective and in part this is also due to pressure from gun lobby.

But in VA, no such extra checks just to purchase a gun, which he did, twice. And down there, yes, it is just almost as easy to get a gun as going to your local 7-11 for a gallon of milk. You fill out one form and go through the instant NICS check. Gun is yours. 
Granted, concealed permit is a different story, even in VA, but just buying a gun, no problem. Easy as milk at 7-11.


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## Bumpsis (Dec 10, 2011)

Nick said:


> My wife and I both have Class A LTC.
> 
> I think it's horrible but the bottom line is, I don't know if it's ever possible to completely eliminate mass murders. If you've got in in your head to kill, you will find a way. Wasn't there a big shooting in Germany a few years back, and they have very strict gun control.
> 
> Anyway, not interested in making this a for or against gun control post. Bottom line is it's a tragedy that someone was killed, and particularly more sensitive on the fact that this happened at a school that just endured a tragedy like this recently. Thoughts go out to the victims, and for those at Virginia Tech, who must be at the end of their ropes...



I do respect your desire not to turn this into a gun control post and yet that IS the elephant in the room. 
Your sentiment to just express grief and empathy is noted and I’m sure widely shared, yet stopping at this point and not looking at why and how such tragedies happen is so very typical of press coverage and various on line discussions related to such events. Especially the “how”.

 The presence of guns and their use in the crime is just seen as a casual happening, happenstance, an act of God, it’s just there. Nobody questions how the gun became available.
In essence, there are candle light vigils, prayers, public hand wringing, indictment of our morals but God forbid we should examine how easy access to guns makes these tragedies possible. 

Case in point: Seung-hui Cho (who murdered 32 students at V.Tech in 2007), got his guns (legally, nonetheless) because it was easy to get them. In Virginia, you don’t need a gun permit or license of any kind to buy a handgun. Just pass the instant background check and you’re good to go. It is just that easy. The background check did not stop him even though it should have because the various institutions that should have added Cho’s name to the NICS (national database of felons and mentally unstable people) database did not. That’s  whole different story, but the gun lobby has its dirty finger prints o that issue too.
Result: 32 young people murdered, hundreds of family members forever living with a horrible pain.  Would Cho be able to kill 32 people and would some 24 others if he did not have two semi automatic hand guns and high capacity clips. The obvious answer is no.

Has anything been done to prevent future tragedies? ASOLUTELY NOT! Why? NRA disapproved of any changes in Virginia gun laws. 

So I lay the most recent killing at NRA’s feet because of their record and pattern of heavy pro gun activism which directly results in crazies and felons being able to arm themselves to the teeth and cause grievous harm. And anybody who condones NRA’s efforts to let dangerous people get guns is just as guilty.


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## Bumpsis (Dec 10, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wait, so you make some random silly NRA comment, then follow it up with the second NRA comment, (which is far more moronic than the first comment), then you accuse _HIM_ of "goading you on"?
> 
> Cool story bro!



It would be interesting to see what exactly do find silly and moronic about my assesment that NRA makes it easy for crazies, menatlly unstable people and criminals to get guns.
I'm just stating facts. Based on your remark, I judge you to be rather uninformed on the issue. The facts are out there. Just open your mind a bit.


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## bigbog (Dec 11, 2011)

Not going to push the value of firearms in society Bumpsis, I just think it's the breakdown in _enforcement_ of our laws that allows them to escape proper background checkS by the lack of punishment to sellers illegally selling. You can ban everything under the sun but we're living in the free market = if there's no will to enforce..there will always be illegal sales.     I think if the War on Drugs was refocused on the illegal sales of firearms and re-focusing the effort towards healthcare provided for people, regardless of their income...especially with their addictions = thus reducing the politician's under-the-table profits, this society would be a safer one.
$.01


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## Nick (Dec 11, 2011)

hammer said:


> What kind of training did you have to have to get the LTCs?
> 
> My main concern is that there are too many people out there who own firearms that are not properly trained in how to use them.
> 
> Just read that the shooter in this case was not a student.



It was a full-day course (7 hours) with a test and a range exam at the end for training. Full discussion on all the laws in the books (how to transport a gun, how you can carry it, how to dissasemble it, mechanics of how they work (semi auto & revolver), double action vs. single action) andthen a LOT on MA laws (capacity limits, restrictions,etc.) 

When you actually apply for the LTC with the town you need to bring in your certificate from the class, they also do a full background check (any criminal convictions of any kind = automatic denial), fingerprints, and an interview with the police chief. 

I was also in the Air National Guard for six years, so I was pretty familiar with both M-16 and M-9 and had military training on both. 

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## Nick (Dec 11, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> I do respect your desire not to turn this into a gun control post and yet that IS the elephant in the room.
> Your sentiment to just express grief and empathy is noted and I’m sure widely shared, yet stopping at this point and not looking at why and how such tragedies happen is so very typical of press coverage and various on line discussions related to such events. Especially the “how”.
> 
> The presence of guns and their use in the crime is just seen as a casual happening, happenstance, an act of God, it’s just there. Nobody questions how the gun became available.
> ...



I won't get too long winded. My general opinion: there are always extremists in every group. The NRA has a lot of people who are normal, responsible gun owners. It only takes a few nutjobs to make the entire group look like crazies. Look at the Occupy people, they had a guy take a dump on a cop car in NYC and that's what has been getting the news, for weeks. 

I don't think the goal of the NRA is making efforts to "let dangerous people get guns". I think they do try to make gun laws less strict and enforce the ones that make sense. There are always some though that will be on the extreme of the issues... i would guess 90% of NRA members think background checks are a good idea. But there are other dumb ideas, I think. MA has many of them. 

Anyway. I'm all for smart control and prevention of getting criminals guns. Simple background checks done correctly would have prevented or at least made much more difficult the 2007 V tech shootings. 

Anyway, I dont expect to make anyone think about it, it's a hot button topic both sides so I get that it's upsetting. The real tragedy here is another death at V-tech and the A-hole that murdered him.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## Glenn (Dec 11, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> First of all, I’d like to be on the record that I have absolutely no problem with guns in hands of responsible people.
> I have huge issues with illegal guns and the ease with which these find their way into hands of people who really should not have them. And for that we have NRA to thank for.
> 
> The process that you described is precisely the kind of a procedure that one should go through to prove to the society at large that are you can be trusted and  capable of using the deadly weapon in lawful way and knowledgeable enough to exercise good judgment  with respect to the gun’s use. I know that gun owners grumble about the process but these barriers do keep at least some real knuckle heads from getting a gun and a legal way of carrying it.
> ...



Gotcha. Now I see where you're coming from.  As nick mentioned, it's certainly a hot button issue.  And i think there will always be those who bypass the legal way of doing things and mess it up for those who do things correctly.


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## Morwax (Dec 12, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> For instance, I really doubt that Seung-Hiu Cho (V. tech shooter on 2007) would have been able to get a gun permit here in MA. A local sheriff, just like in CT has to approve a gun permit just to buy the weapon. Prior to that, the kid would have to pass a certification course. In other words, there were at least two more screens before the NICS background check that Cho would have to pass in order to buy a weapon. As seen, the NICS system is far from being fully effective and in part this is also due to pressure from gun lobby.


 Imagine one student being allowed to have a gun on campus that day. Do you think the casualty rate would have been 32? Why were'nt any of those poor students allowed to protect themselves? MA..MA??? LOL ya theres never any gun violence in MA :roll:
 What we need are fewer laws and litigation against law abiding citizens trying to protect themselves..there will always be crazy people and lets face it the police cant be everywhere all the time.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> *My state (MA) has similar laws in place and I’m glad for it.* It is however a real tragedy that very few states do have these common sense laws on the books. * States that do not*, as already witnessed at V. Tech in 2007 *are more prone to tragic outcomes*. *I really doubt that Seung-Hiu Cho *(V. tech shooter on 2007)* would have been able to get a gun permit here in MA.*



SHC absolutely would have his gun in MA.  Remember the mentally ill guy in Wakefield, MA a few years ago that killed his office workers?  Legal gun.   

The law is on the books, but many states (including Mass) do a poor job entering them into the Federal database.   Sometimes it's a privacy issue, as some states wont report medical issues such as mental illness.  Also, the mental illness lobby is solidly against preventing the mentally ill from owning a gun, and considers it a rights issue.  Also, the public position of the NRA is that the mentally ill shouldnt be able to have a firearm.



Bumpsis said:


> *Law abiding people will always have access to guns *and self protection, *despite the gun lobby’s propaganda.*



Tell that to the millions of people in nations that have had that "access" taken away in the last 50 years.




Bumpsis said:


> A local sheriff, just like in CT *has to approve a gun permit just to buy the weapon*



I didnt know CT was that strict, but it saddens me that there are Americans that approve of the above, that believe that one man (literally) is all it takes to stand between another man from the ability to possess a weapon with which to defend his family.   




Bumpsis said:


> * You fill out one form and go through the instant NICS check. Gun is yours.  Granted, concealed permit is a different story,* even in VA, but just buying a gun, no problem. Easy as milk at 7-11.



Do you know where else it's easy to buy a gun like that?  Vermont (and Alaska).   

And in Vermont, you dont even need a "concealed permit" to carry.  Last I heard, there arent 1000 shootings in Vermont per week.   So your analysis that Virginia's laws help "cause" the shootings is flawed.  The guns arent the problem, the individual human being (as has been stated by others in this thread) is the problem.  

As for CCW, this varies across the nation, but in Manhattan, where I live, only criminals are "allowed" to carry a firearm.   The incredibly strict gun control laws of New York City, sure as hell arent preventing the numerous shootings EVERY WEEK in New York City, just like the unstrict gun control laws in Vermont, Alaska, and Virginia arent causing numerous shooting every week.




Bumpsis said:


> * I have huge issues with illegal guns and the ease with which these find their way into hands of people who really should not have them. And for that we have NRA to thank for.*



What role did the NRA play with Eric Holder's illegal guns in Mexico?



Bumpsis said:


> I'm just stating facts.* Based on your remark, I judge you to be rather uninformed on the issue.* *The facts are out there.* Just open your mind a bit.



Yeah, and the facts are that there are infinitetesimily few shooting like this balanced against the large number of American gun owners.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> * Would Cho be able to kill 32 people *and would some 24 others if he did not have two *semi automatic hand guns* and *high capacity clips.* The obvious answer is no.



*First*, it's not a "clip", it's a magazine, anyone remotely familiar with weapons knows the difference and wouldnt make this mistake.  

*Secondly,* Cho didnt even have "high capacity" magazines in the VT shooting, so you're in error on that right off the bat.

Not to mention, magazine capacity is probably the dumbest of all gun control laws.  People that dont understand guns think it makes a huge difference in these instances whether the pistol has a 10 round magazine versus a 30 round high-cap.  The fact is, it takes less than 2 seconds (literally) to change out a magazine, and mags are very small, very lightweight, and very easy to carry. 

 There is absolutely no difference between a shooter with one 30 round mag and another with three 10 round mags.  I'd rather a deranged shooter have two (**GASP**) 30 round "high-capacity" mags, than a shooter with seven 10 round mags. LOL.


*Lastly*, yes, even if Cho didnt have "two semi-automatic handguns" (again, I'm not sure you know what this means given the way you're strongly emphasizing it), he could have easily killed 32 people (or more).  Rather simple if he had two 7-shot revolvers with a pocket full of speedloaders that cost a whopping.....wait for it...... wait for it...... $8 each. Especially given the fact nobody else had a gun with which to stop him.    

These "dead-end crazy" shooters only stop when either:

A) Someone kills crazy person
B) Crazy person kills himself


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