# Is there a market for a mostly expert ski area?



## Greg (May 16, 2007)

The "step up to the plate" thread got me thinking. I wonder if there is a market for a kick-ass mostly expert hill that caters to truly passionate hard core skiers. Early open/late close. A lot of snowmaking, at least initially, but minimal grooming once a base is set up. No season passes; just day tickets. Very basic, stripped down facilities, no fancy shmancy lodging. Truly market it as an advanced skier's mountain. Kind of an MRG "Ski It If You Can" on steroids approach. I have to imagine there is a clientele for such a place, no?

Yeah...I'm probably dreaming... :roll:


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> The "step up to the plate" thread got me thinking. I wonder if there is a market for a kick-ass mostly expert hill that caters to truly passionate hard core skiers. Early open/late close. A lot of snowmaking, at least initially, but minimal grooming once a base is set up. No season passes; just day tickets. Very basic, stripped down facilities, no fancy shmancy lodging. Truly market it as an advanced skier's mountain. Kind of an MRG "Ski It If You Can" on steroids approach. I have to imagine there is a clientele for such a place, no?
> 
> Yeah...I'm probably dreaming... :roll:



There's that hardcore mountian on the UP of Michigan. Can't remember the name, but they market themselves as expert only. If it works there, it should work here. But except for the snowmaking, open early/late aren't you describing MRG?

Found it Mt Bohemia.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> There's that hardcore mountian on the UP of Michigan. Can't remember the name, but they market themselves as expert only. If it works there, it should work here. But except for the snowmaking, open early/late aren't you describing MRG?



http://www.mtbohemia.com/

Yeah. Basically, the MRG approach, but with snowmaking. Strive to be the first to open and last to close. Think about it. MRG runs with no debt (granted limited snowmaking expense) and they seem to cater to mostly advanced skiers. There has to be room for another like it here in the NE.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> Found it Mt Bohemia.



Yes! This is a good start:







"No Beginners Allowed" :lol:


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> http://www.mtbohemia.com/
> 
> Yeah. Basically, the MRG approach, but with snowmaking. Strive to be the first to open and last to close. Think about it. MRG runs with no debt (granted limited snowmaking expense) and they seem to cater to mostly advanced skiers. There has to be room for another like it here in the NE.



You know you wouldn't even need that much snowmaking. Keep most of the mountain natural and have two or three wide open trails that get pounded with snowmaking to build up a base that will last long into the spring. Add in a spring party atmosphere ala SL's Reggae fest (but in May!) to draw in the crowds and you're all set.

All we need to do is find a mountain....


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> You know you wouldn't even need that much snowmaking. Keep most of the mountain natural...



If it were up to me ( :roll: like I have any credibility on such matters...  ), I would just blow as much snow as possible through say January, groom it once and then let it be. Ice bumps, you say? Too bad - this is our "expert" hill, remember? Maybe a light resurfacing from time to time...


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## MRGisevil (May 16, 2007)

Greg- I'm setting that poster as my desktop.

I'm not sure if there's an actual Market for an experts-only mountain, I'm not very learned in Northeast Skiing traffic... but I'd love there to be one. But who would marshall something like that? How would you keep a mountain "expert only", and how would you classify someone worthy of said Mountain? I'm curious, because I think it's a good idea, but never having been to an area like Bohemia, I'm not quite sure how it would work.


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## MikeTrainor (May 16, 2007)

A-Basin out west is usually the 1st to open last to close and caters tword the expert skier. Many reviews have talked about the great spring parties on "the beach". I have never skied out west but when I do it is on the list.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

There already is one.

http://www.silvertonmountain.com/


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

MikeTrainor said:


> A-Basin out west is usually the 1st to open last to close and caters tword the expert skier. Many reviews have talked about the great spring parties on "the beach". I have never skied out west but when I do it is on the list.



A-Basin is a great place that does cater to advanced and expert skiers, but there is limited blue and green terrain.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> The "step up to the plate" thread got me thinking. I wonder if there is a market for a kick-ass mostly expert hill that caters to truly passionate hard core skiers. Early open/late close. A lot of snowmaking, at least initially, but minimal grooming once a base is set up. *No season passes*; just day tickets. Very basic, stripped down facilities, no fancy shmancy lodging. Truly market it as an advanced skier's mountain. Kind of an MRG "Ski It If You Can" on steroids approach. I have to imagine there is a clientele for such a place, no?
> 
> Yeah...I'm probably dreaming... :roll:




Why no season passes?


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

MikeTrainor said:


> A-Basin out west is usually the 1st to open last to close and caters tword the expert skier. Many reviews have talked about the great spring parties on "the beach". I have never skied out west but when I do it is on the list.



A-basin in the spring is awesome! Huge moguls on really steep slopes, almost like dropping off little cliffs. There's a big bowl that's good for the intermediates too. They are still open with 53" base. :-o


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> There already is one.
> 
> http://www.silvertonmountain.com/



Yes, but an east coast version.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Why no season passes?



No real reason, aside from maybe the *K.I.S.S. principle*. I guess my thinking is that perhaps a day ticket only option makes it easier to create budgets, revenue projections, etc. I should note that I have no real business experience so I'm talking out my ass a bit here. Maybe a SugarCard-like approach where you sign up and link a credit card, when you visit, it's scanned and you are charged the daily rate.


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## SkiDog (May 16, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> There already is one.
> 
> http://www.silvertonmountain.com/



I was going to say that and THIS..

http://www.jacksonhole.com/

M


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> No real reason, aside from maybe the *K.I.S.S. principle*. I guess my thinking is that perhaps a day ticket only option makes it easier to create budgets, revenue projections, etc. I should note that I have no real business experience so I'm talking out my ass a bit here. Maybe a SugarCard-like approach where you sign up and link a credit card, when you visit, it's scanned and you are charged the daily rate.



Remember also that this ski area I'm going to open up (  ) is not going to have a bunch of revenue streams; limited facilities (i.e. food services, lodging, etc.). It's all about the skiing at "Mount AlpineZone"! So pay your daily rate and go kick some ass!


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

Probably doesn't have the terrain, but this place is available.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> Probably doesn't have the terrain, but this place is available.



Yup. So now all we need is some venture capital, or an AZer with a cool couple mill lying around...


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## hammer (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> Probably doesn't have the terrain, but this place is available.


This had me thinking of what I would/could do with a Powerball or MegaMillions jackpot... 8)


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

Hmmm....400+ active AZ members. If we all ponied up a mere $10K each, we'd have $4MM to work with... :lol:


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## ctenidae (May 16, 2007)

hammer said:


> This had me thinking of what I would/could do with a Powerball or MegaMillions jackpot... 8)




I wouldn't do that with it- about the only thing still serviceable there is the basement in the lodge.


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Yup. So now all we need is some venture capital, or an AZer with a cool couple mill lying around...



There must be a few invesment banker types hanging out on the boards. Want to support the dreams of a few fanatical skiers?


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## hammer (May 16, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> I wouldn't do that with it- about the only thing still serviceable there is the basement in the lodge.


Maybe not that area, but if I had the $$ I wouldn't mind owning/running a "bare bones" ski area in general...seems like you can't count on lifetime passes these days anyway. :wink:


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## mishka (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Yup. So now all we need is some venture capital, or an AZer with a cool couple mill lying around...



 askig price only $1.7 million has been closed since 2000... they will go a lot less


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## snoseek (May 16, 2007)

mt. whittier, ossipee nh. perfect.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

mishka said:


> askig price only $1.7 million has been closed since 2000... they will go a lot less  $5K would do



Well.....we'll need some dough to shine the place up...


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

snoseek said:


> mt. whittier, ossipee nh. perfect.



That place actually has some pretty steep pitch.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> Yes, but an east coast version.



Hickory Hill Ski Center in Warrensburg, NY. Closed for years. Has 1200+ vert. 







Put a couple chair lifts up and it's good to go.


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Hickory Hill Ski Center in Warrensburg, NY. Closed for years. Has 1200+ vert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like that. Who needs chairlifts? Keep the t-bar it helps weed the novices out.


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## jack97 (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Yeah. Basically, the MRG approach, but with snowmaking. Strive to be the first to open and last to close. Think about it. MRG runs with no debt (granted limited snowmaking expense) and they seem to cater to mostly advanced skiers. There has to be room for another like it here in the NE.



Has anyone ask MRG about their (lack of) snowmaking policy. Sounds like this is close as you going to get; they already cater to the hardcore, they just need a little help to start early and close late.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> I like that. Who needs chairlifts? Keep the t-bar it helps weed the novices out.



Sounds good, but after riding a T-bar up steep terrain, ski down and repeat many times, it kinda burns your quads up.


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> http://www.mtbohemia.com/
> 
> Yeah. Basically, the MRG approach, but with snowmaking. Strive to be the first to open and last to close. Think about it. MRG runs with no debt (granted limited snowmaking expense) and they seem to cater to mostly advanced skiers. There has to be room for another like it here in the NE.



what is the point of the thread?

1. You just agreed, we already have MRG - snowmaking will make it less of an "expert Only" mountain.
2. Why do you need an expert only hill?  You are a good solid intermediate, who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Has anyone ask MRG about their (lack of) snowmaking policy. Sounds like this is close as you going to get; they already cater to the hardcore, they just need a little help to start early and close late.



I don't think it's a policy really. I believe there is a water limitation at MRG:

*[POST="133647"]Click[/POST]*


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## ctenidae (May 16, 2007)

mishka said:


> askig price only $1.7 million has been closed since 2000... they will go a lot less




heh- they dropped the price. It was $2M last fall. the owner's kids want to sell it off as development property, but the father (who actually owns it) doesn't- he wants a ski area running. Unfortunately, he's getting old, and the kids are getting antsy.

If you want really hard core, expert-only stuff, SkiDenton is the only place to go. Hard to beat a 60 degree slope with a triple fall line.


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> No real reason, aside from maybe the *K.I.S.S. principle*. I guess my thinking is that perhaps a day ticket only option makes it easier to create budgets, revenue projections, etc. I should note that I have no real business experience so I'm talking out my ass a bit here. Maybe a SugarCard-like approach where you sign up and link a credit card, when you visit, it's scanned and you are charged the daily rate.




if a day ticket option were easier to create budgets, then all ski areas would do it.  its easier to create budgets with a guaranteed revenue stream of people buying lift tickets before the winter hits.  your logic is off.


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## snoseek (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> what is the point of the thread?
> 
> 1. You just agreed, we already have MRG - snowmaking will make it less of an "expert Only" mountain.
> 2. Why do you need an expert only hill?  You are a good solid intermediate, who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.



your joking...right?


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## ctenidae (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> what is the point of the thread?
> 
> 1. You just agreed, we already have MRG - snowmaking will make it less of an "expert Only" mountain.
> 2. Why do you need an expert only hill?  You are a good solid intermediate, who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.




beswift?


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## ctenidae (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> if a day ticket option were easier to create budgets, then all ski areas would do it.  its easier to create budgets with a guaranteed revenue stream of people buying lift tickets before the winter hits.  your logic is off.



This, i'll agree with. Cash up front is much easier to deal with.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> beswift?



Ha! I love how people think every troll is beswift. Actually, woodlandclown is just some cranky hag from the SkiADK forum...


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## AHM (May 16, 2007)

*Have any of you been to an expert only hill...............*

Expert only hills exist in a couple places, such as Bohemia, Silverton, and La Grave.  Have any skied any of these areas ?

I have skied each and they are quite good.  They have almost no frills.  The Silverton base lodge is a yurt, with a wood stove.  They have one lift and they turn it off when everyone is up top.  They bus or van you back from two different drainages.  A transceiver, probe and shovel are required.  For most runs, you'll hike off the top for a bit, can be upto an hour, which at 12,000 feet may be a bit winding for some.

Bohemia is a bit different, with numerous cliff drops etc.  Nothing major, but nice steep drops.  There is no avalanche issues, so probe, shovel, and beacon not necessary.  It has a lodge etc and has more ammenities than Silverton, but Silverton skis much tougher.

The creme de la creme of hardcore hills is La Grave France.  LG makes the others look like a mom and pop groomer hill.  LG features no avi work, no maps and is a pretty challenging place to ski.  Not much is marked, although over the last couple years, things like the trifides couliors do have a rope up, so you need to knowingly cross the rope to access the primary trifides lines.  The pictures in my profile are from the trifides couliors, so you can get an idea of the steepness from those pics.  They have also started to put a few signs in areas like the Girose to inform you that mountaineering equipment will be needed to descend.  Many runs in LG can take all day, as in 5 hours to negotiate the run, build rapel anchors, dig pits and safely get skiers through difficult pitches.  LG has no base lodge, so you will be booting up outside, however the food in town and on the hill is some of the best in the world.

So, many of you seem to think a hardcore hill would rock.  I would encourage you to give either Silverton or LG a whirl.  Also, since we had the gaper thread, I will say this.  LG will make just about everyone a gaper.  The sheer magnitude and plainly obvious danger at the place will have your mouth wide open as you contemplate where you are going to ski.  It just goes up and up, when you get on the one lift and the yellow light is flashing the avalanche level is 4 of 5.  

We could always have an AZ expert only trip to Silverton or LG................think about it.  I think Jim G, HPD, Marc, Greg, Austin, Riv, would be all over it.


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

snoseek said:


> your joking...right?




no


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Ha! I love how people think every troll is beswift. Actually, woodlandclown is just some cranky hag from the SkiADK forum...



your piddley attempts at name calling arent going to work greg.  I am calling it as i see it.  Maybe i am wrong, but i doubt it.  I have never seem someone toot their own horn more than you.  its your forum, so you can do what you want, but i can call you on it too...that is until you ban me!


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## snoseek (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> your piddley attempts at name calling arent going to work greg.  I am calling it as i see it.  Maybe i am wrong, but i doubt it.  I have never seem someone toot their own horn more than you.  its your forum, so you can do what you want, but i can call you on it too...that is until you ban me!



do you need a hug?


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## SkiDog (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> Expert only hills exist in a couple places, such as Bohemia, Silverton, and La Grave.  Have any skied any of these areas ?
> 
> I have skied each and they are quite good.  They have almost no frills.  The Silverton base lodge is a yurt, with a wood stove.  They have one lift and they turn it off when everyone is up top.  They bus or van you back from two different drainages.  A transceiver, probe and shovel are required.  For most runs, you'll hike off the top for a bit, can be upto an hour, which at 12,000 feet may be a bit winding for some.
> 
> ...



Count me in on Silverton....

Riv...correct me if im wrong...you've never skied out west correct?

M


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

snoseek said:


> do you need a hug?



i am not pissed off, angry at the world, or "on the rag" as greg suggests because he cant think of anything else to say...but hugs are cool, who doesnt need one?


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## nycskier (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> There's that hardcore mountian on the UP of Michigan. Can't remember the name, but they market themselves as expert only. If it works there, it should work here. But except for the snowmaking, open early/late aren't you describing MRG?
> 
> Found it Mt Bohemia.



Here is a New York Times article on Mount Bohemia:

http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/travel/escapes/09ski.html

A buddy of mine who lives in Michigan has been there and he said it is A) awesome and B) in the middle of nowhere! In fact he has only been there a couple of times becasue in the time it takes him to get there he could almost drive out West!


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## JimG. (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> Expert only hills exist in a couple places, such as Bohemia, Silverton, and La Grave.  Have any skied any of these areas ?
> 
> I have skied each and they are quite good.  They have almost no frills.  The Silverton base lodge is a yurt, with a wood stove.  They have one lift and they turn it off when everyone is up top.  They bus or van you back from two different drainages.  A transceiver, probe and shovel are required.  For most runs, you'll hike off the top for a bit, can be upto an hour, which at 12,000 feet may be a bit winding for some.
> 
> ...



OK, I'm in...

oh the constant reminders of ski season. You never really do ever put it away totally even in the dead of summer.


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## AHM (May 16, 2007)

*If Riv is in, I'll frequent flier his ticket................*

My job makes me travel too much, so if Riv has never skied out west and he wants to go, I got a airline ticket for him........


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## SkiDog (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> My job makes me travel too much, so if Riv has never skied out west and he wants to go, I got a airline ticket for him........



Wait...ive never been to LG...can you buy me a ticket there?? ;-)

M


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## AHM (May 16, 2007)

*I'll run an LG trip any day.................*

euro FF are a few more miles, but you never know.  We could do a pretty cool trip to either or the hard core of BC...........


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## SkiDog (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> euro FF are a few more miles, but you never know.  We could do a pretty cool trip to either or the hard core of BC...........



Im likely in for a silverton trip..its closer to me now. 

M


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> but hugs are cool, who doesnt need one?



Well, apparently you didn't get enough of them as a kid...


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> your piddley attempts at name calling arent going to work greg.  I am calling it as i see it.  Maybe i am wrong, but i doubt it.  I have never seem someone toot their own horn more than you.  its your forum, so you can do what you want, but i can call you on it too...that is until you ban me!



It seems to me that you started with the insults first. So don't be so thin skinned when they come back.


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## 2knees (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.



Beats spending my time at iceface.


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## millerm277 (May 16, 2007)

Personally, I think a mostly expert, stripped down ski area can definitely work, but it will need vert, snowmaking power for when it's needed, and it will need to be close to a population center. In some ways, Hunter operated like this for a long time.


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2007)

2knees said:


> Beats spending my time at iceface.



UH OH, now you PO'd HPD. :wink:


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## JimG. (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> what is the point of the thread?
> 
> 1. You just agreed, we already have MRG - snowmaking will make it less of an "expert Only" mountain.
> 2. Why do you need an expert only hill?  You are a good solid intermediate, who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.



Dammit! I knew I was going to get in trouble hanging out with that Greg character. Oh the shame of being tagged a "mid-life crisis suburban rock star".

Seriously Greg, why is this guy so angry at you?


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> A-Basin is a great place that does cater to advanced and expert skiers, but there is limited blue and green terrain.


 

Yup, Warren had alot of fun exploring daddy's old haunt this February. I spent alot of time there skiing in April, May and June back in the 1980's and early 1990's and skiing Pali, the East Wall and Cornice Run.

There is alot of easier stuff on the mountain:


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## ski_resort_observer (May 16, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> I was going to say that and THIS..
> 
> http://www.jacksonhole.com/
> M



JH has a good amount of blues and greens and has been trying for years to lose the myth that it is an expert's only mountain. I guess some myths die hard. 

MRG has no interest in snowmaking as the key to their success is NO DEBT. Eric has stated this publicly many times, I think even on this forum as well.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

I am not a big fan of man made snow, but in the days of a warming climate and a shortening ski season, having at least one top to bottom run with snowmaking would be a good insurance plan.

I have never skied a 100% snowmaking free ski area in New England, and I have been to most of them. Out west the only one I can think of that I have been to is Timberline Lodge, even Mammoth with 600" + of snow a year needs it, especially this season with the least snow since 1976.


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> It seems to me that you started with the insults first. So don't be so thin skinned when they come back.



i am not being thin skinned.  i was commenting that i thought gregs response was quite lame--he just goes for the dismissive name-calling, rather than coming up with something a little more clever.  similarly to the other post about - oh, go back to iceface.  its old and boring and not relevant.


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## woodlandclown (May 16, 2007)

2knees said:


> Beats spending my time at iceface.



to each his own.  most would disagree with you.


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## ctenidae (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Ha! I love how people think every troll is beswift. Actually, woodlandclown is just some cranky hag from the SkiADK forum...



Are you sure?  Damn good impersonation, at least.

On topic, I think an "expert only" mountain would have a tough time pulling in enough of a crowd. Seasons are made or broken over the holiday weeks for a reason.


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## Marc (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> Expert only hills exist in a couple places, such as Bohemia, Silverton, and La Grave.  Have any skied any of these areas ?
> 
> I have skied each and they are quite good.  They have almost no frills.  The Silverton base lodge is a yurt, with a wood stove.  They have one lift and they turn it off when everyone is up top.  They bus or van you back from two different drainages.  A transceiver, probe and shovel are required.  For most runs, you'll hike off the top for a bit, can be upto an hour, which at 12,000 feet may be a bit winding for some.
> 
> ...



I'd be in for Silverton, in a heartbeat next winter.  I feel a little better now that I'm Avi 1, but I'd feel better going with a higher cert or someone with more experience (a guide would be nice too).

I need to climb a lot more often.  Fack.  Not enough daylight hours.  Now I'm all wrapped up in freakin biking four or five days a week and sailing will be soon.  Austin, you need to come give me a good konk on the head with your one of your in bigs.  I'm losing my priorities here.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

OT, but is anyone aware of the expansion at Arapahoe Basin this summer into Montezuma Bowl? This is from the back of this years trail map. It looks cool and worth a visit next season.


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## awf170 (May 16, 2007)

My ideal ski area would be running the Cog the whole winter and spring.  Add nothing at all.  Just run the Cog to the summit every day that conditions allow.  It would be ridiculous. 




Marc said:


> Austin, you need to come give me a good konk on the head with your one of your in bigs.  I'm losing my priorities here.



Drive to my house or somewhere in the area on Sunday morning.  We will go ski Monroe Brook on Mt. Washington.  It still has a ton of snow.  It will be awesome.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Seriously Greg, why is this guy so angry at you?



The sad thing is WLC is a broad, part of that old RSN Whiteface clique...


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

awf170 said:


> My ideal ski area would be running the Cog the whole winter and spring. Add nothing at all. Just run the Cog to the summit every day that conditions allow. It would be ridiculous.


 
The owners of the Railroad tried that in 1989 and the USFS was less than thrilled:


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## riverc0il (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Yeah. Basically, the MRG approach, but with snowmaking. Strive to be the first to open and last to close. Think about it. MRG runs with no debt (granted limited snowmaking expense) and they seem to cater to mostly advanced skiers. There has to be room for another like it here in the NE.


I disagree. The market for the MRG style approach is very limited. You would not likely lure folks dedicated to MRG away from General Stark mountain by adding snow guns. Snow making also requires wider and some what straighter trails so you would loose some of the terrain aspect just by adding snow making. Very few skiers want all expert terrain all the time, so the market is pretty small. While MRG runs debt free and is generally successful, the mountain is not exactly turning over a huge amount of revenue due to its unique niche. It is sustainable because of its unique flavor and dedicated/loyal following. I do not think the market could sustain two such ski areas nor do I think an "all expert" area could generate enough revenue to also incorporate a lot of snow making. MRG would most certainly go under if MRG expanded its snow making system. If MRG could not make this a successful project (even if the coop wanted to pursue that direction), I doubt any other ski area could do this successfully. As enthusiasts we can often times not see through the ideals to the business aspects, this is a tough industry.


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## riverc0il (May 16, 2007)

awf170 said:


> My ideal ski area would be running the Cog the whole winter and spring.  Add nothing at all.  Just run the Cog to the summit every day that conditions allow.  It would be ridiculous.


It would be a disaster. Not Without Peril could have a second volume dedicated to just accidents involving skiers ascending the rock pile on the Cog. It would also substantially take away from the earn your turns spirit of the mountain.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> OT, but is anyone aware of the expansion at Arapahoe Basin this summer into Montezuma Bowl? This is from the back of this years trail map. It looks cool and worth a visit next season.
> 
> Wow, that looks great.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

2knees said:


> Beats spending my time at iceface.





wa-loaf said:


> UH OH, now you PO'd HPD. :wink:



Them's fightin words.


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## riverc0il (May 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> I don't think it's a policy really. I believe there is a water limitation at MRG:
> 
> *[POST="133647"]Click[/POST]*


While there certainly is a water limitation, with enough money things could be expanded slightly. I think the key statement in that post was the first sentence of the explanation:



			
				MrMRG said:
			
		

> While it certainly stinks to be closed, snowmaking would only make a bad economic situation worse.


Snow making would not increase skier visits much to MRG. Even with slightly enhanced snow making, MRG is decided dependent on natural snow due to the nature of the mountain and its trails, many of which would have serious character alterations with snow making. Skiers don't ski MRG when there isn't much natural snow. Heck, I am a share holder and I don't ski MRG when there isn't much natural snow. Without natural snow, expert skiers just grind it out locally, where ever is cheap with good conditions, or at the season pass mountain. Hard to reconcile the expert mountain with snow making even if there was a market for another type of MRG-ish mountain.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 16, 2007)

AHM said:


> We could always have an AZ expert only trip to Silverton or LG................think about it.  I think Jim G, HPD, Marc, Greg, Austin, Riv, would be all over it.



I would like to go, but being a teacher I'm limited to Pres. week in Feb.

Going to either place with AHM would be great. When you go someplace you've never been it's invaluable to have someone with you who knows the ropes.

If Greg went to LG he'd want to know where the bump runs where. :lol:

BTW IMO this is the best thread we've had going in awhile. It has a little bit on everything that I like in a thread.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

riverc0il said:


> It would be a disaster. Not Without Peril could have a second volume dedicated to just accidents involving skiers ascending the rock pile on the Cog. It would also substantially take away from the earn your turns spirit of the mountain.


 
To quote the USFS "the cog would spoil the wilderness ski experience for the big contingent of traditional walk up skiers who would be agonized at the thought of a small group of cunning but lazy skiers paying to be carted up"

I understand there reasoning for safety issues, but I could really care if one accessed skiing by lift, car, train or a circus cannon.


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## awf170 (May 16, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> To quote the USFS "the cog would spoil the wilderness ski experience for the big contingent of traditional walk up skiers who would be agonized at the thought of a small group of cunning but lazy skiers paying to be carted up"



There would still be quite a lot of hiking.  Anyway, it basically a joke.  I know it would never work, but it would still be awesome to have the Cog to access all that sick terrain on a nice spring day.  Hiking up that tracks is pretty easy anyway, and probably just as fast as that stupid, old, smelly train.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

awf170 said:


> There would still be quite a lot of hiking. Anyway, it basically a joke. I know it would never work, but it would still be awesome to have the Cog to access all that sick terrain on a nice spring day. Hiking up that tracks is pretty easy anyway, and probably just as fast as that stupid, old, smelly train.


 
I am a steam enthusiast and love those stupid, old, smelly trains, but I could see how they could blight a mountain. Then again, what other forms of transportation did you have when it was completed in 1869, besides a horse and buggy or your own two feet.

The cog is an engineering marvel and it's nice to see the owners sticking with tradition in keeping it going. I hear that they are running some oil powered trains now, this should cut down on the pollution.


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## awf170 (May 16, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> I hear that they are running some oil powered trains now, this should cut down on the pollution.



And they obviously care about the environment...
http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/744/medium/IMG_2705_2_.jpg

There is old scrap wood and other random crap everywhere along the track near the summit.  I bet the alpine vegetation under that pile is real happy.  











Back on topic:  I think MRG is the closest you are going to get to a "hardcore" ski area Greg.  It would be cool to blend early/late season skiing with old school ungroomed stuff, but I don't think it will happen.  I guess the Killington of the late 80's was very close, right?


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## 2knees (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> to each his own.  most would disagree with you.



sure.  I'd bet all 7 people from ski adk would disagree with me.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

awf170 said:


> And they obviously care about the environment...
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/744/medium/IMG_2705_2_.jpg
> 
> There is old scrap wood and other random crap everywhere along the track near the summit. I bet the alpine vegetation under that pile is real happy.


 
Not much different from an auto road blasted into the mountainside, or alpine vegetation trampled down by masses hikers going off marked paths.


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## awf170 (May 16, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> Not much different from an auto road blasted into the mountainside, or alpine vegetation trampled down by masses hikers going off marked paths.




Except that the pile of crap can be removed in a few days.


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## loafer89 (May 16, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Except that the pile of crap can be removed in a few days.


 
I agree that the scrap besides the tracks should be removed, perhaps there are enviormental concerns? I often wondered why they did not remove the scrap lumber and rails on my trips up the cog.


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## 2knees (May 16, 2007)

woodlandclown said:


> i am not being thin skinned.  i was commenting that i thought gregs response was quite lame--he just goes for the dismissive name-calling, rather than coming up with something a little more clever.  similarly to the other post about - oh, go back to iceface.  its old and boring and not relevant.



much like the lame generalized baseless cliche you threw out about gregs friends.  but since you set the bar so low, i figured i would run with it.


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## Marc (May 16, 2007)

2knees said:


> much like the lame generalized baseless cliche you threw out about gregs friends.  but since you set the bar so low, i figured i would run with it.



No running with the bar.  Or I break out my John Belushi impressions.


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## 2knees (May 16, 2007)

Marc said:


> No running with the bar.  Or I break out my John Belushi impressions.



They took the bar!  The WHOLE F&**ING BAR!


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## ski_resort_observer (May 16, 2007)

Marc....WB!

I think it's very easy to dismiss that an "experts only" resort would be a business model that would have a tough road to hoe. Conversly, with the market still pretty flat growthwise I think as time goes on more resorts will try to specialize and establish a niche diferent than what's being offered today. 

I guess the jury is still out on Whaleback but maybe am experts only resort in the east might work. After all no one has tried that before. 
edit: Mt Bohemia tho still new seems to be doing ok perhaps in part due to the lack of expert terrain in the midwest.

.


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## Greg (May 16, 2007)

2knees said:


> much like the lame generalized baseless cliche you threw out about gregs friends.  but since you set the bar so low, i figured i would run with it.



Right. And the irony is that based on some pics over on SkiADK, I would bet she's a helluva lot closer to mid-life crisis age than either of us. In fact, the old RSN/ADK group seems to be trying to hold on to high school or something with that little clique of theirs. Pretty pathetic if you ask me... :roll:


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## kingslug (May 19, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Marc....WB!
> 
> I think it's very easy to dismiss that an "experts only" resort would be a business model that would have a tough road to hoe. Conversly, with the market still pretty flat growthwise I think as time goes on more resorts will try to specialize and establish a niche diferent than what's being offered today.
> 
> ...



But who will have the guts to take the risk and open something like that?


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## redalienx11 (May 20, 2007)

i like this thread. lots of thought going into this which is cool.

FWIW, i ski MRG and would also love to support/ski an experts only ski area in the NE.


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## skiadikt (May 21, 2007)

maybe this will fill the bill. a ski area called craigieburn in new zealand. luv the trail ratings triple black - suicidal. 3 rope tows. when we were in new zealand in '96 many of the x-teamers (deslauriers, egans) we met raved about the place. it's also a favorite of plake. we never got there. maybe next time 

http://www.craigieburn.co.nz/flash_trailmap.htm


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 23, 2011)

yep....I'm hitting the bumps!


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## Black Phantom (Sep 23, 2011)

This is money. It's got to run in the family.


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## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2011)

woodlandclown said:


> what is the point of the thread?
> 
> 1. You just agreed, we already have MRG - snowmaking will make it less of an "expert Only" mountain.
> 2. Why do you need an expert only hill?  You are a good solid intermediate, who likes to hang out with the rest of your mid-life crisis friends and then go back to your suburban rock star lifestyles.  I think you are probably fine on the mole hills you ski on, with a few "hard core" trips up to MRG, bush etc.



Classic. And banned for it.


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## 2knees (Sep 26, 2011)

Nice bump Dave....:razz:


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## andyzee (Sep 26, 2011)

2knees said:


> Nice bump Dave....:razz:



I thought so, all GSS styleee!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2011)

To address the original question, I think that there is a demand for an area that caters to the serious skier/rider.  This means that it has challenging terrain, great terrain variety, and a long season (first to open, last to close).  Expert, and serious skiers and riders, want to ski and ride.  They want an area that has the breadth of terrain and season to offer that.


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## oakapple (Sep 26, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> To address the original question, I think that there is a demand for an area that caters to the serious skier/rider.  This means that it has challenging terrain, great terrain variety, and a long season (first to open, last to close).  Expert, and serious skiers and riders, want to ski and ride.  They want an area that has the breadth of terrain and season to offer that.



I suspect there is not. The ski industry has been consolidating for many years. Look at all of the closed areas on NELSAP: how many new ones have opened over the same time period? A ski area like the one you described, which "has it all," but is by design limited to only the top 10 or 20 percent of the market, sounds like a losing proposition.

Part of the problem is that most expert skiers aren't willing to pay up for the product. Compare, for example, the price difference between the most expensive and the least expensive cars: it's a huge range, more than an order of magnitude. There is no such range in ski pricing.

Now, if there were a large number of expert skiers willing to pay $1,000 a day for lift tickets, then you could build a ski area for the Very Few. But that market doesn't exist.


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

oakapple said:


> I suspect there is not. The ski industry has been consolidating for many years. Look at all of the closed areas on NELSAP: how many new ones have opened over the same time period? A ski area like the one you described, which "has it all," but is by design limited to only the top 10 or 20 percent of the market, sounds like a losing proposition.
> 
> Part of the problem is that most expert skiers aren't willing to pay up for the product. Compare, for example, the price difference between the most expensive and the least expensive cars: it's a huge range, more than an order of magnitude. There is no such range in ski pricing.
> 
> Now, if there were a large number of expert skiers willing to pay $1,000 a day for lift tickets, then you could build a ski area for the Very Few. But that market doesn't exist.



These guys are doing all right.


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 26, 2011)

andyzee said:


> I thought so, all GSS styleee!



GSS style? We have been bumping threads well before GSS ever joined AZ.


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## Nick (Sep 26, 2011)

Bumper to bumper

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## mediamogul (Sep 26, 2011)

I personally like the Castlerock model of a designated experts area as somewhat distinct from the rest of the ski area. I think a true experts area should have little or no snowmaking and be left ungroomed in all but the most dire of conditions with the caveat to ski at your own risk. There should be no bailouts and trails should be left in all their steepness with only minimal regrading on runouts should there be any.

Given all this I don't think a purely experts only ski area would be neccessary.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 26, 2011)

:-o


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> :-o


 
Aw yes, Castlerock!

And I was not saying a new ski area, but rather speaking about a ski area changing their focus.  FWIW Killington used to be the Beast in the day with lots of challenging terrain.  Now it is groomed over or just left to grow back.


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## JimmyPete (Sep 28, 2011)

*Haven't read the whole thread but*

how about Plattekill in the Cats? Can't open early or stay too late, too far South but it remains hard core.


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## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2011)

JimmyPete said:


> how about Plattekill in the Cats? Can't open early or stay too late, too far South but it remains hard core.



Plattekill is fine, but it's not hard core in terms of terrain. Blockbuster is a nice steep run, but the most challenging terrain in the Catskills is not there. It's at Hunter West.


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## JimmyPete (Sep 28, 2011)

*A Basin does cater to Experts But*

there are trails marked D and double D there when the conditions are ripe day or two after a storm that a good intermediate can easily negotiate. One of the problems Eastern mountains have is the inconsistency of conditions. On some days many expert slopes are easily skied, give a decent rain and night freeze and you have some tough sledding [is that a pun?] for anyone even the best.


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2011)

JimmyPete said:


> there are trails marked D and double D there when the conditions are ripe day or two after a storm that a good intermediate can easily negotiate. One of the problems Eastern mountains have is the inconsistency of conditions. On some days many expert slopes are easily skied, give a decent rain and night freeze and you have some tough sledding [is that a pun?] for anyone even the best.



I like double D's


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## Black Phantom (Sep 28, 2011)

JimmyPete said:


> there are trails marked D and double D there when the conditions are ripe day or two after a storm that a good intermediate can easily negotiate. One of the problems Eastern mountains have is the inconsistency of conditions. On some days many expert slopes are easily skied, give a decent rain and night freeze and you have some tough sledding [is that a pun?] for anyone even the best.



What trails are marked this way? 

What "expert slopes" are "easily skied"?


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## JimmyPete (Sep 28, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Plattekill is fine, but it's not hard core in terms of terrain. Blockbuster is a nice steep run, but the most challenging terrain in the Catskills is not there. It's at Hunter West.



I've skied Hunter West many times never Plattekill, always heard Plattekill can be pretty hairy, because of little or no grooming or snowmaking. So even if the Vert isn't there  is it still  challenging? At my age [65] I do enjoy some smoothing out. Old Dudes can't bounce.


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## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2011)

JimmyPete said:


> I've skied Hunter West many times never Plattekill, always heard Plattekill can be pretty hairy, because of little or no grooming or snowmaking. So even if the Vert isn't there  is it still  challenging? At my age [65] I do enjoy some smoothing out. Old Dudes can't bounce.



Yes, the two double blacks at plattekill are steep and somewhat challenging, but not hairy. Their extremely narrow blues are actually more difficult sometimes because of the no grooming and snowmaking. But IMHO the steep trails at Hunter are more challenging than the steep trails at Plattekill.


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## JimmyPete (Sep 28, 2011)

*Easy D's*



Black Phantom said:


> What trails are marked this way?
> 
> What "expert slopes" are "easily skied"?



Almost anything marked expert at Stratton or Okemo are easily skied except on icy days. Some of Gore's experts are not too tough ,on decent days though Lies and Rumor hardly ever are easy.I haven't been back to Killington in years but recall a fair amount of D's that would be simple Blues out west , and certainly some that wouldn't be anything but a DD. The thing is ,when it gets crowded and icy on weekend, these trails do turn much tougher. I'm sure management is cognizant of this and thus the D markings. Out West everything is so open once on the slopes crowds are rarely a problem and real ice is much rarer. Though many Western Skiers call hard pack ice. An Eastern Skier with an edge can always ski Colorado or Utah "ice".


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## steamboat1 (Sep 28, 2011)

There is some truly steep stuff in the east, there is some truly steep stuff out west. In either local the slopes are hard as a rock after a thaw freeze cycle.


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## JimmyPete (Sep 28, 2011)

*Maybe I've been lucky*

Out West. Never really saw a thaw freeze cycle in Utah or Colo. Did have one day at Squaw that was brutal, but chalked that up to the ghosts of the Donner party.


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## letitsnow (Oct 8, 2011)

*Kicking Horse*



Greg said:


> The "step up to the plate" thread got me thinking. I wonder if there is a market for a kick-ass mostly expert hill that caters to truly passionate hard core skiers. Early open/late close. A lot of snowmaking, at least initially, but minimal grooming once a base is set up. No season passes; just day tickets. Very basic, stripped down facilities, no fancy shmancy lodging. Truly market it as an advanced skier's mountain. Kind of an MRG "Ski It If You Can" on steroids approach. I have to imagine there is a clientele for such a place, no?
> 
> Yeah...I'm probably dreaming... :roll:


Look up Kicking Horse
Better yet book a trip, you will not be disappointed


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## abc (Oct 10, 2011)

Greg said:


> The "step up to the plate" thread got me thinking. I wonder if there is a market for a kick-ass mostly expert hill that caters to truly passionate hard core skiers. Early open/late close. A lot of snowmaking, at least initially, but minimal grooming once a base is set up. No season passes; just day tickets. Very basic, stripped down facilities, no fancy shmancy lodging. Truly market it as an advanced skier's mountain. Kind of an MRG "Ski It If You Can" on steroids approach. I have to imagine there is a clientele for such a place, no?


The answer is, NITE (Not In The East)!

Out west, there're several contenders already. 

In the east, there's MRG. But it doesn't make much snow. That's what sucks money and jack up ticket prices. With the weather of the east, you simply can't afford it with "normal" ticket prices. Never mind early open...

More over, expert terrain == big rocks or big drops. Those takes a lot of snow to be skiable. (who wants to ski an area with lots of 25" rock when there's only 24" base?  )  Not good candidate for early open... 

So, NITE. Not in the east.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 11, 2011)

JimmyPete said:


> Out West. Never really saw a thaw freeze cycle in Utah or Colo. Did have one day at Squaw that was brutal, but chalked that up to the ghosts of the Donner party.



Picture from Snowbird, UT. Jan. 20 2011.

Looks a little crusty to me...:smile:


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