# Another reason not to ski today



## billski (Jan 25, 2010)

From BFP:
I-89 in Montpelier


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## bvibert (Jan 25, 2010)

Looks like a mess, any details on what happened?


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## Johnskiismore (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, it was pretty ugly up here with the icing.  

Then this morning it was pouring.... back to bed!


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## billski (Jan 25, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Looks like a mess, any details on what happened?



Two were killed, 3 vehicles.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2010)

2 milk trucks vs. car.  One truck in the front jack-knifed and skidded.  The car collided with it and the truck behind the car slammed into the car.  End result was passenger in car was killed and the driver of the second truck was killed.  Massive fire.  Not good.  

http://timesargus.com/article/20100125/NEWS/100129967

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=11874078#

A lot of people are upset because VT has adopted a "winter conditions" road policy (i.e. "we don't plow or sand as often anymore") versus the old "clear roads" policy.  Lots of accidents this year and lots of damage.  The VSP have been ticketing everyone that goes off the road.  Not to get political, but it is absurd.


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## billski (Jan 25, 2010)

Sigh.  I-89 whither the snow


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## Glenn (Jan 25, 2010)

We zipped out of Brattleboro last night without an issue. Once we hit the Mass line, things got interesting. Salt trucks were looping the roads on both sides of the highway. I'm not sure how icey it was out, but they were salting like crazy. We saw two spinouts in Greenfield...northbound. Some guy hauling a u-haul enclosed trailer behind his pickup was driving out of the median; a Honda Civic was in the breakdown lane facing the wrong way.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2010)

Very sad.

I wish I had something positive to report, but I just got out of a meeting in White River Junction and it's raining at a pretty good clip.


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## ctenidae (Jan 25, 2010)

I was going to make a joke about crying and spilled milk, but then I saw there were fatalities.

Instead, I'll just say that really sucks.


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## riverc0il (Jan 25, 2010)

S reported a truck off the road on her commute home from Concord which took twice as long as usual. Some people complain about the snow but sometimes snow is safer for driving because it actually forces people to slow down versus doing the speed limit or faster during a down pour and hydro plaining and eventually hitting a frozen spot in the road... dangerous stuff this rain just barely above freezing.


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## Geoff (Jan 25, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> A lot of people are upset because VT has adopted a "winter conditions" road policy (i.e. "we don't plow or sand as often anymore") versus the old "clear roads" policy.  Lots of accidents this year and lots of damage.  The VSP have been ticketing everyone that goes off the road.  Not to get political, but it is absurd.



They had that road policy back in the 1970's until it killed too many people.   When I was at UVM, the entire left lane of I-89 was ice from White River to Canada.   In New Hampshire, they treat I-93 from the Mass line to Manchester with a liquid salt solution when the forecast is calling for black ice.   I wish they'd do I-89 but I guess that's not a high enough traffic road to justify the expense.

The State Police ticketing people for sliding off the road is beyond absurd.   I was incredulous the first time a friend told me they'd been ticketed.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The State Police ticketing people for sliding off the road is beyond absurd.   I was incredulous the first time a friend told me they'd been ticketed.



Times are tough and they need to pay for things I guess.  :roll:  At some point someone is going to challenge their ticket and sue the state.


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## ctenidae (Jan 25, 2010)

This thread needs a little pork-me-up.






The results of my weekend.
Sausage is homemade Polish "white" sausage, smoked for about 3 hours.
Bacon started as 3 lbs of pork belly, 3 weeks in the beer fridge with salt, brown sugar, and paprika. My god, it's good.


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## Johnskiismore (Jan 25, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> This thread needs a little pork-me-up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Droooooollllll


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## Marc (Jan 25, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> This thread needs a little pork-me-up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wish you were the Rock so I could smell what you were cookin'.


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## Geoff (Jan 26, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Times are tough and they need to pay for things I guess.  :roll:  At some point someone is going to challenge their ticket and sue the state.



Or shoot the cop.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> The VSP have been ticketing everyone that goes off the road.  Not to get political, but it is absurd.



As absurd as it is, it's not a concept that's unique to Vermont and in some places the 'rules' are much worse.  I got a warning when I lived in Athens, OH for simply driving in the snow.  They have driving bans during winter weather.  3 inch snowstorm was it.  Unless you were going to work or somewhere because of an emergency, you could get a ticket.


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## Glenn (Jan 26, 2010)

That's interesting on the roads policy. As a flatlander, I assumed that's the way it always was in VT. I've heard a few PSA's on the radio this year and just thought "Well, this ain't CT..." 

Is there a method to the maddness so to speak? As in they did that to try to save money due to the budget?


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## Geoff (Jan 26, 2010)

Glenn said:


> That's interesting on the roads policy. As a flatlander, I assumed that's the way it always was in VT. I've heard a few PSA's on the radio this year and just thought "Well, this ain't CT..."
> 
> Is there a method to the maddness so to speak? As in they did that to try to save money due to the budget?



They're trying to keep the road salt from contaminating the groundwater.   This goes in cycles.   Right now, they're using the least sat possible.   After some spectacular deaths, they'll go back to bombing the roads with stunning amounts of salt.


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## jrmagic (Jan 26, 2010)

That is sad that there were fatalities.  As for the tickets for going off the road... what exactly is the offense? Is it some type of reckless driving thing?  Once you get below the interstate road level you can find some interesting stuff. I banged into some snow banks on the sides of Route 11 a few years back and did some 360s but I don t think it was my fault. I was driving pretty slowly and then came down a hill and the road was canted towards the side. Not too much I could do about it. Thank God it was the middle of the night and noone was coming and also that there were snow banks instead of a valley to the side of the road.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jan 26, 2010)

jrmagic said:


> As for the tickets for going off the road... what exactly is the offense?





not having enough scratch to afford a fancy 4X4 with winter tires?


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## billski (Jan 26, 2010)

jrmagic said:


> That is sad that there were fatalities.  As for the tickets for going off the road... what exactly is the offense?



Read this.  It's amazing what you could get ticketed for.  
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullchapter.cfm?Title=23&Chapter=025

Well, depends what they pick.  If I was to guess:
(V) § 1053. Failure to exercise due care;
(II) § 1083. Special speed limitations;
(B) § 1091. Negligent operation;

Gee, the more I read, it appears I could potentially be guilty of a dozen of these things.

Begs some questions:
         (A)         § 1033. Illegal passing on the left; 
          (B)  § 1034. Illegal passing on the right;
Hmm.


What's the diff:

(E) § 1039. Following too closely;
(PP) § 1116. Clinging to other vehicles;  like throwing a lifeline???


(SS) § 1119. Improper opening and closing vehicle doors;
Nobody every told me there was a right and a wrong way.   Maybe this applies to "dooring" a bicyclist?


(KK) § 1093. Smokescreen device;
Never knew about this one either.


(BB) § 1065. Improper use of hand signals;
I'll bet this one gets a lot of use


Enough!


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## Glenn (Jan 26, 2010)

Geoff said:


> They're trying to keep the road salt from contaminating the groundwater.   This goes in cycles.   Right now, they're using the least sat possible.   After some spectacular deaths, they'll go back to bombing the roads with stunning amounts of salt.




It's a noble thought...but people should not be paying with their lives.


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## Geoff (Jan 26, 2010)

billski said:


> Well, depends what they pick.  If I was to guess:
> (V) § 1053. Failure to exercise due care;
> (II) § 1083. Special speed limitations;
> (B) § 1091. Negligent operation;



Negligent operation is a pretty major traffic citation.  In Vermont, it's an automatic 30 day license suspension.   10 points on your license.   $300 fine plus a $65.00 surcharge.   Another $75 to get your license back.   A real revenue generator.

That's what Tiger Woods got in Florida for crashing his SUV into a tree.


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## bvibert (Jan 26, 2010)

billski said:


> Read this. It's amazing what you could get ticketed for.
> http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullchapter.cfm?Title=23&Chapter=025
> 
> Well, depends what they pick. If I was to guess:
> ...



I've gotten a ticket for "Failure to drive right" in CT when I slid off the left hand side of the road in wet conditions as a teenager.



billski said:


> (KK) § 1093. Smokescreen device;
> Never knew about this one either.



I've been guilty of this one as well (but never got caught), I wonder if there's a specific law about it in CT??

I sure did some stupid things as a teenager. :lol:


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## ctenidae (Jan 26, 2010)

Man, they're tough in VT. 2 points for these:  
§ 1038. Driving on roadways laned for traffic; 
§ 1059. Driving through safety zone;
§ 1095. Operating with television set installed;

Marc needs to stay out of VT- § 1127. Unsafe control in presence of horses and cattle, since he's totally out of control around livestock.


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## jrmagic (Jan 26, 2010)

billski said:


> Read this.  It's amazing what you could get ticketed for.
> http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullchapter.cfm?Title=23&Chapter=025
> 
> Well, depends what they pick.  If I was to guess:
> ...



lol I guess I have been guilty of a number of those over the years too.      

As far as actually getting tickets in VT I've managed a few good speeding tickets  and then I got one when the VT trooper accused me of trying to knock him off the road:-o


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## jrmagic (Jan 26, 2010)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> not having enough scratch to afford a fancy 4X4 with winter tires?




Most of the cars I ahve seen go off the roads in VT are locals with trucks. In my case I was in a 4x4 with snow tires but they dont do dookie if the road is a sheet of ice.


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## Geoff (Jan 26, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Man, they're tough in VT. 2 points for these:
> § 1038. Driving on roadways laned for traffic;
> § 1059. Driving through safety zone;
> § 1095. Operating with television set installed;
> ...



One useful thing about Vermont is that speeding tickets on the interstate highways are only 2 points unless you're going so fast that they cite you for reckless driving or negligent operation.   

On the secondary roads, it's really easy to rack up the points with all the speed traps in the hick towns.   60 mph in a 40 zone (20 over) is 5 points.  It's really easy to do that unintentionally.   Route 4 from Pico down the pass to Killington, you have to nail your brakes to get it to 40 mph and a state cop car sits there all the time.   The 40 mph zone in front of the Long Trail Brewery on Route 4 is another sucker trap.  Two of those tickets and you're a pedestrian for a while.


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## witch hobble (Jan 26, 2010)

Glenn said:


> It's a noble thought...but people should not be paying with their lives.



People could pay with their lives due to contaminated groundwater, too.  Albeit a longer, slower, less outwardly violent death.


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## Geoff (Jan 27, 2010)

witch hobble said:


> People could pay with their lives due to contaminated groundwater, too.  Albeit a longer, slower, less outwardly violent death.



I know people who have road salt contamination in their wells.   Nobody dies from it.    You dig an artesian well, typically funded by the state, and get on with your life.


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## Glenn (Jan 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> One useful thing about Vermont is that speeding tickets on the interstate highways are only 2 points unless you're going so fast that they cite you for reckless driving or negligent operation.
> 
> On the secondary roads, it's really easy to rack up the points with all the speed traps in the hick towns.   60 mph in a 40 zone (20 over) is 5 points.  It's really easy to do that unintentionally.   Route 4 from Pico down the pass to Killington, you have to nail your brakes to get it to 40 mph and a state cop car sits there all the time.   The 40 mph zone in front of the Long Trail Brewery on Route 4 is another sucker trap.  Two of those tickets and you're a pedestrian for a while.



So that dude I read about in the Deerfield Valley News a few months ago..who was bagged doing 100+ mph on Route 100...he probably got a few points? ;-)


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## Geoff (Jan 27, 2010)

Glenn said:


> So that dude I read about in the Deerfield Valley News a few months ago..who was bagged doing 100+ mph on Route 100...he probably got a few points? ;-)



At that point, points don't matter.


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## Glenn (Jan 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> At that point, points don't matter.



I had to read the article twice to make sure I read it right. I've driven Rt100 end to end a number of times. I can't figure out how any one in their right mind could find one stretch of that road where those speeds were "safe". Eek!


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## witch hobble (Jan 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I know people who have road salt contamination in their wells.   Nobody dies from it.    You dig an artesian well, typically funded by the state, and get on with your life.



I was drinking while posting last night, not looking for arguments.  But your reply assumes that people know about their contamination and act upon that knowledge.  Sodium-> Hypertension -> lots of possible health complications -> death?


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## Geoff (Jan 27, 2010)

Glenn said:


> I had to read the article twice to make sure I read it right. I've driven Rt100 end to end a number of times. I can't figure out how any one in their right mind could find one stretch of that road where those speeds were "safe". Eek!



112 mph in a 50 mph zone.  He has a court date in Bennington in two weeks because he didn't pay his fine.

Tuesday,   Feb.  9          State vs. Stred, Brent
at 11:45 AM in Room d       1331-12-09 Bncr/Criminal
                            Show Cause for Failure to Pay Fine
                            Atty(s):  Robert F. Plunkett


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## Glenn (Jan 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> 112 mph in a 50 mph zone.  He has a court date in Bennington in two weeks because he didn't pay his fine.
> 
> Tuesday,   Feb.  9          State vs. Stred, Brent
> at 11:45 AM in Room d       1331-12-09 Bncr/Criminal
> ...




Nice detective work Geoff! :beer:


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## jrmagic (Jan 27, 2010)

witch hobble said:


> I was drinking while posting last night, not looking for arguments.  But your reply assumes that people know about their contamination and act upon that knowledge.  Sodium-> Hypertension -> lots of possible health complications -> death?



Wow I site I moderate thrives on arguing while PWI:lol:

Your reply assumes that those that dont know need to drink an awful lot of water to ingest that much sodium sicne I woudl ASSume that it doesnt taste like the ocean to them.


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## billski (Jan 27, 2010)

The section of Interstate 89 where a fiery three-vehicle crash Monday left two dead had been heavily salted three hours earlier and was deemed ice-free by highway workers shortly before the accident, a Transportation Agency spokesman said Tuesday.


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## Geoff (Jan 27, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Nice detective work Geoff! :beer:



I was curious what he was charged with.   The newspaper said "Excessive Speed".   That's +30 over the limit.  I was surprised it wasn't more than that which is why I dug into the court records.   I believe it's a $300 fine plus a $65 surcharge.   There must also be a whopper speeding ticket.

I figure the guy will no-show the court date.   Vermont will have a warrant out for his arrest if he ever sets foot in Vermont and will notify Massachusetts to suspend his Mass license.   I had that happen in Rhode Island for not paying a speeding ticket where they chased me down 10 years later.  I had to drive to some courthouse in Rhode Island and sit there until my case was called so I could plead guilty and pay the ancient ticket.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2010)

10 years later and they still went after you? Unreal.


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## Geoff (Jan 28, 2010)

Glenn said:


> 10 years later and they still went after you? Unreal.



At some point in the 1990's, the states cross-linked their drivers license databases and allow states have a license suspended in another state.   I guess Rhode Island mined the database to collect unpaid ticket revenue.   I had no problem paying the ticket.  I'd lost the original one and completely forgot about it.   It was the required court appearance that sucked.


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