# Bicycle weight



## saus (Oct 27, 2006)

Another question from a new but enthusiastic bicycle rider: For a road bike not used for carrying packs or cargo other than a rider, to be used for things like centuries on paved roads, what would be a reasonable bicycle weight? What's higher than reasonable, what's needlessly low, etc? Considering that this is not for racing, is the difference between two pounds and three pounds significant? What difference would that extra pound make for the rider?


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## marcski (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm a relatively new rider as well. However, I believe 20 lbs is probably a good bench mark for road bike weight.  You can take a carbon framed road bike and with adding lightweight carbon components and lighter wheels, you can get that weight down to 14 lbs.  However, like you, I think that is overkill unless your racing.


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## saus (Oct 27, 2006)

How about frame weight?


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## mlctvt (Oct 27, 2006)

Frame weight between 3 and 4.5 lbs.


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## saus (Oct 27, 2006)

What about total bike weight? Is 16 pounds needlessly light? What would be considered "light" but not quite "race light"?


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## Charlie Schuessler (Oct 28, 2006)

Remember frame weight is based not just on materials but size, what is the size of the frame?

What is the weight of the rider?  Which of the two is easier to loose weight and produce better results in terms of power (speed) development?  Loosing weight on the rider is free in terms of $$$ and loosing weight on the frame costs $$$...


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

Charlie Schuessler said:


> Remember frame weight is based not just on materials but size, what is the size of the frame?
> 
> What is the weight of the rider?  Which of the two is easier to loose weight and produce better results in terms of power (speed) development?  Loosing weight on the rider is free in terms of $$$ and loosing weight on the frame costs $$$...



Excellent point, Charlie, and believe me, it's on my mind bigtime. I weigh 162 at the moment, and my usual average weight is 150. In serious fighting trim, it would be 145, but I'm not sure I want to be there. I have shrunk - no $h!t - from 5'10" back in the day, to 5'8" at the age of 65. When I'm biking in 40 years, I'll probably need a kid's bike.:roll: 

However, it's not just the weight that the biker drives that counts - it's the way the bike responds. As a skier, I know that flex placement, amount of flex, and weight all make some contribution to way a ski rides. Bikers have told me that the same thing applies to bikes. I'm looking for - in a few words - more fun.

I already have a Bianchi Volpe - a really versatile cyclocross - and enjoy it immensely. I have no intention of replacing this triple, and if riding fully loaded on a cross country trip, I'll be glad that I have the granny gear. I've let it rip on long downhill runs and had TONS of fun doing it, feeling very secure. I usually stay on the large ring and shift only when needed. I never use the granny gear these days.

As in skis, I have different skis for different conditions, uses and experiences (I'm known as a gear whore - I have five pairs of skis and one pair on the way). My on-piste carving/teaching skis are last season's Volkl Allstars in 161 cm length. I also have on order some 2007 Volkl AC4 in 170 cm length. They're both superb skis - but obviously provide different experiences.

The next velo will not be a replacement for the Volpe - it will be a supplement. So, I want it to be something different.


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## andyzee (Oct 28, 2006)

saus said:


> However, it's not just the weight that the biker drives that counts - it's the way the bike responds. As a skier, I know that flex placement, amount of flex, and weight all make some contribution to way a ski rides. Bikers have told me that the same thing applies to bikes. I'm looking for - in a few words - more fun.


 
Excellent point! The lighter the bike the better the responsiveness.


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## bruno (Oct 28, 2006)

marcski said:


> I'm a relatively new rider as well. However, I believe 20 lbs is probably a good bench mark for road bike weight.  You can take a carbon framed road bike and with adding lightweight carbon components and lighter wheels, you can get that weight down to 14 lbs.  However, like you, I think that is overkill unless your racing.



i agree. and a 14 or 15 lb. ride would most likely be a one-crash bike.:smash: :roll: 8)


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

bruno said:


> i agree. and a 14 or 15 lb. ride would most likely be a one-crash bike.:smash: :roll: 8)



Maybe not, if the frame is titanium.

Overall, I get the impression that 16 pounds is considered light, 18 pounds not too shabby, 20 pounds ok, 25 pounds not unthinkable but not light, and over 25 pounds is probably hunky dory but not really responsive in a fun, sexy kinda way.

Please banter with me about what it feels like to ride a titanium bike at various weights. Rather than just say "that depends", please set the rider at a standard 150 pounds, 5'8", and relate the results to any other variables you'd like to throw in. I'm here to have fun, so let it roll!


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## bruno (Oct 28, 2006)

the lightest bike out there is a carbon look (i think) and with all the lightest weight components i think it's around 15 lbs. i saw one at belmont wheelworks. i am 5'8", 130 lbs and i wouldn't feel too safe hittin' any of the bumps we have here in beantown!!

but yeah, you could get a ti bike down to 16 or 17 lbs and it'd most likely survive a crash. carbon makes me nervous. and aesthetically i don't really care for 'em. they strike me as kinda soulless. that's just me though.:-D :flag:


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

bruno said:


> the lightest bike out there is a carbon look (i think) and with all the lightest weight components i think it's around 15 lbs. i saw one at belmont wheelworks. i am 5'8", 130 lbs and i wouldn't feel too safe hittin' any of the bumps we have here in beantown!!
> 
> but yeah, you could get a ti bike down to 16 or 17 lbs and it'd most likely survive a crash. carbon makes me nervous. and aesthetically i don't really care for 'em. they strike me as kinda soulless. that's just me though.:-D :flag:



So, let's take our theoretical titanium bike, fit it out with second-from-the-top components (say, Ultegra) to bring it to, say, 17 pounds, put on a guy who's 150 pounds and 5'8" - what are the sensations the guy will experience? Someone tell me all the good stuff, someone tell me all the bad stuff, and someone be totally objective - please.


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## bruno (Oct 28, 2006)

oh yeah. i put helium in my tires. really.


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

Cheap Viagra?


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## bruno (Oct 28, 2006)

and when i get to a hill, i take my waterbottle outta the cage and put it in my jersey pocket. it makes the bike lighter. really.:grin:


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

But you're still carrying the same weight. Try exhaling. I bet there's a ton of hot air inside that biker's body of yours - not to mention the extra stash between your ears. Or take a $h!t. Plenty of that in there, too, I bet.:lol:


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## andyzee (Oct 28, 2006)

Now now children, let's behave  . You both make some valid points. Bruno, taking the waterbottel out of the cage will make the bike lighter. As far as I'm concerned, this is far more important than the weight of the rider. A lighter bike is more responsive making for better performance.

Saus, you are correct, if bruno takes a $hit, he will loose some weight, however, I dont' beleive this to be as important as the weight of the bike 

Just my 2 cents.


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

andyzee said:


> Now now children, let's behave  . You both make some valid points. Bruno, taking the waterbottel out of the cage will make the bike lighter. As far as I'm concerned, this is far more important than the weight of the rider. A lighter bike is more responsive making for better performance.
> 
> Saus, you are correct, if bruno takes a $hit, he will loose some weight, however, I dont' beleive this to be as important as the weight of the bike
> 
> Just my 2 cents.




Well, I'll step up to the plate and pick that bone: Failing properly to time the $h!t can make a few miles to the next Porta Potty feel like an eternity. Also, exhaling - VERY important. Try inhaling without it.


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## andyzee (Oct 28, 2006)

saus said:


> Well, I'll step up to the plate and pick that bone: Failing properly to time the $h!t can make a few miles to the next Porta Potty feel like an eternity. Also, exhaling - VERY important. Try inhaling without it.


 
  Good points! But the original question was concerning bike wieght, not rider weight or comfort. Hey saus, so did you get much riding in this season?


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## saus (Oct 28, 2006)

Not nearly as much as I'd like.

Off to the pah-tee. More later.


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## andyzee (Oct 28, 2006)

saus said:


> Not nearly as much as I'd like.
> 
> Off to the pah-tee. More later.


 
Enjoy


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## Charlie Schuessler (Oct 29, 2006)

I've read reports in Velonews about torsion (stiffness) tests performed between different frame materials trying to determine which is better, aluminum, carbon or titanium.

They used major frame brands that support pro teams (Cervelo, Giant, Scott, Time, Trek, etc...) ultimately determining that (Cervelo) carbon frames are significantly lighter & stronger than aluminum or titanium, and for racing at World Class events that is paramount. I've also read many pro riders still use aluminum and titanium frames place just as well in standings.


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## saus (Nov 4, 2006)

Today, I was in gear whore heaven. Demoed a bunch of bikes supported by a very, very patient and knowledgeable staff at Earl's Bicycle and Fitness in South Burlington, Vermont. All that horse hockey about the bike not holding me back? Horse hockey!



I had a wonderful time and found huge differences between my Volpe and the full carbon road bikes tried. Unfortunately, I didn't know exactly their price ranges when I tried them. The one that felt like it was made just for me, like it was a part of my being, that was fast and comfortable and maneuverable and came this close to the almost-as-good-as-sex area - it was the Orbea Orca. 2006 model. Full carbon, Shimano DuraAce components.16 pounds without pedals. On sale. $4,799.99 (bless the penny). Tears, tears, tears. Of course I won't buy that piece of road heaven. There's the money. And then there's the _GUILT_. 



I also demoed the Felt F3C with DuraAce drive train, compact crank, and the 2007 Orbea Onix TDF, Ultegra components, admittedly too large for me. The Orca was 54 by Orbea standards, the Onix was 57 by Orbea standards. 2007 Onix on sale $2,299.99. All bikes I demoed were full carbon. Obviously, at less than half of the cost of the Orca, guess what oboe will be bringing home.



We weighed four of the bikes - the Bianchi Volpe, the Orbea Orca, the Orbea Onix, and the Felt F3C. The Volpe (triple) was over 25 pounds, the Orca as I said was 16 w/o pedals, the Onix was 17.5 with pedals, and the Felt was 18.5 with pedals. The Felt was designated a 56, by the way.



After riding the afternoon away, I responded to wifey's voice message on my cellular and came home. Just for yuks, I went out for a spin on my Volpe. uh . . . . I loved you, dear, but . . . there's someone else. I'm sorry. (THE BIKE! THE BIKE!!!)



Guys, I can't possibly go back to the cyclocross when the full carbon roadies were so sexy. They were way, way more fun for me to ride - and fun is what it IS, for me. I think that I can ride another 50k, or even a century on the Volpe. But now I don't want to. I CAN'T WAIT for the next Tour de Cure, MS Tour, and whatever other tour I can find.

After consideration and web viewing, I'm focusing on the Orbea Onix TDE - same bike, SRAM Rival components. Anyone have some thoughts on that "Double Tap" shifting?


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## AHM (Nov 5, 2006)

*Long days and a bunch of gaps.........and it's only one choice*

Saus:  Crash the carbon in App gap hard and it is gone.  Best buy right now is the Litespeed Tuscany (1800 from Colorado Cyclist) for the frame.  Compete ultegra bike with Mavic Krysirium SL3 wheels will go about 3100.  Get the compact crank (34 - 50).  The Ti bike will ride beautiful forever.  The carbon will scratch when crashed, the bonds will shorten and become ridgid over time (UV degradation).  Carbon is pretty.  It can crack as well.

16 - 20 lbs is about fine.  Over 20 for a road bike and it may as well be a hard tail mountain bike.  My Moots YBB Ti MTB comes in at about 22 lbs with a suspension fork.  Frame wt = 4 lbs (on a calibrated Mettler Scale costing as much as the bike, so I know the weight is right.  Any road frame over three pounds is not too light.

CS point's are close but a bit off.  House brand bikes compared to the Cervelo is the wrong comparison.  House brand bikes are not well made.  Is the Trek Lance rode well made ?  Sure, and you will not get that bike no matter what Trek says.  Don't believe it.  That's fine.  I have seen my share of Tour bikes produced at Ben Serrotta's factory in Glens Falls NY getting the Look and other top logos painted on them.  Was the Frame a look, nope it was a custom built Serrotta.  Pay no attention to house brand bikes if you are trying to buy a good bike.

Pick the brains of Fit Werx in Waitsfield.  It would be worth the call or drive.  Better test fleet than the BTV boys.  

Good stiff Ti, ie a 6-4 Ti bike (6 % vanadium and 4 % Alu vs std 3-2 which is 3 % vanadium and 2 % alu, will perform just as well as the carbon and it will suck up the ride.  Last thing I read suggested to me you were not a Cat 1 or 2 racer, so the stiffest ride is gona feel like the stiffest ride 50 miles in, and on VT roads--not the smoothest, especially gap roads, you will want the Ti bike for the next 50 miles.

When will the frame flex:  when you are out of the saddle cranking the frame can flex from the BB shell to the seat stays and chain stays.  This is what typically causes ghost shifting, as you have flexed the frame, and the chain can easily move up or down a cog.  It is why a good Ti bike will use a 6-4 BB shell and 3-2 tubes.  But if  you want total stiffness, then an all 6-4 bike might be the call.  But, at your weight, I see no reason for a 6-4.  I think the Tuscany will be all the bike you need.  The Ti will be good and sexy when she is all dressed out.  You are gonna sit on it a whole lot, do a whole lot of research.


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## saus (Nov 5, 2006)

I'll check this out, AHM. The bike you recommend cost almost a grand more than what I'm considering, but I'll check out the Litespeed wed site again.

I found the full carbon Orbea Onix to be very comfortavle compared to what I've been riding (Bianchi Volpe) and maybe a thousand times more responsive. So keep in mind my points of reference.

After I check out Litespeed and confer with my guru at Earl's, I'll post my next move. There may be others in VT with good stuff, but Earl's is only five miles from my house, and they rae very, very patient with me. I want two things for Christmas - EVERY Christmas: Good health and more time. With time at a premium, I'll stick close to home for the biking. Earl's will order me anything I want even if they don't carry it.

Thank you VERY much for your input. It's really appreciated.


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## saus (Nov 5, 2006)

AHM, the Tuscany has 3/2.5. Any thouhgts on that?


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## saus (Nov 5, 2006)

Final answer: Sometime down the road, perhaps, I'll work with Earl's on putting together a Seven Cycles ti roadie. For now though, here's the scoop:

I will not get the Orbea Onix TDE unless they'll swap out the wheels for Kysrium, pre-purchase. The TDE has Mavic Askium wheels and the TDF has Mavic Ksyrium Equipe wheels. If they won't swap out the wheels, then I'll go with the Orbea Onix TDF which has the Kysrium wheels and Shimano Ultegra components (but with Shimano 105 chain and the FSA SL-K compact crankset).



I've already talked to Earl's about this, and they'll tell me the verdict Monday. I'll either have a balck/orange Orbea with SRAM Rival components and Kyserium wheels or a black/blue Orbea with Shimano Ultegra components and Kysrium wheels - soon. Both are with compact cranksets.

Anyone who thinks I'm making a big mistake - tough nuggies.


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## AHM (Nov 6, 2006)

*Saus:  A couple more thoughts............*

1.  The bikes you have chosen are fine bike, will ride well, look cool, and sounds like they have a good mix of components.   No question, a huge upgrade from the Bianchii(sp).

2. If it were me:  My basic take is you are not ready for the purchase, because I feel you need to do a whole lot more homework.  Secondly, you will not really be riding any more this year, as you live in VT and the season is over, really.  So, you do not need to buy now.You have had the current rig a while, so my guess is that bike turnover is not high.  Consequently, you'll be riding this one for a while..............if it fits right.  Finally, you stated you are shy on time, so that means you probably don't have all the time you like to ride, so I would maximize my ride enjoyment by using my non riding winter to research my couple thousand dollar bicycle decision, so I get the best bike for "me".  A decision not many people (when we look at the total population in the country) make.  Few own multiple thousand dollar bicycles.  So, my advice would be take the time to do it right.


3.  Doing it right:
- Frame grid of all frames considered matching tube dimensions (TT/ST/HT/Center-top/Stand over/head and seat tube angles/weight, etc.  This will tell you fit and handling differences.  You can learn a lot here.
- Talking to many shops, get many points of view, not just the guy close to you.  Information is key right, well the right information is what is key.  Not doubting Earl's, just telling you to talk, talk. talk.
-Materials comparison:  the fact that you asked about 3-2 Ti (it is the material for you), tells me you have yet to thoroughly characterize the various materials.  It means a lot, the primary part of the bike--what gives it the "ride" is the frame.  Take a much closer look to understand the materials.  Read, read, read.

4.  Call the companys you are considering. See how they "sound".  Ask about building techniques, why their frames are the best, how many come back for warranty, how many they sell a season.  Do they do all the fabrication.  When I started talking to Litespeed, Seven, and Moots, before I bought a Ti MTB, I started learning a whole lot about ti (I already was pretty familiar with high tech steel and carbon bikes).  What I learned, made my decision very very easy.

5.  And the most important and the first thing you do:  Ask yourself what and where do I ride.  How long, how much and what will I realistically ride in the future (not where I would like to).  If you are honest to the answers to these questions, and then look to find the bike that fits those needs you will get the right bike.  

6.  Fit:  This is a major issue, and I am not sure you have looked into this fully, this is why I suggested fit werx.  Check out the website (They are in Waitsfield--it is a  hop, skip, and a jump from BTV--we used to go from Waitsfield to BTV when Ben and Jerry's was one store in BTV only--so if ice cream was worth it, bike fit has to be).  Print out the seven fit guide and take all those measurements.  Check out the Serrotta fit kit and have a shop (or Earl's) perform a fit kit.  No fit kit at Earl's ???  Then I would have a few questions.

Think about some of these things and see where you end up.  Happy cycling.


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## saus (Nov 6, 2006)

Earl's has an excellent national reputation and has computerized fitting. They've spent gobs of time with me already. They fit the bike at and after purchase over the course of a year.  I'm ready.They're ready. The roads will be rideable for quite a while here and even longer elsewhere (the Champlain Islands are the last to get snow, and they're prime biking territory, and there's always southern New England and Cape Cod, and my nephew in Virginia, and my biking friend in Maryland, and my inlaws in North Carolina).

Your concern is appreciated, believe me, but bear in mind that I've already had a Jewish mother (the genuine article) and one was all I'll ever need.:lol:


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## saus (Nov 6, 2006)

Of course, in the real world, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that I ordered the 2007 Orbea Onix TDF with Ultegra components and Kysrium wheels. The bad news is that it's out of stock in my size [54] and won't be here for two or three weeks.

By the way, did you know that the 2006 Orca is about 15% more flexible than the 2006 Onix and that the Orca is being stiffened up in the 2007 model?


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## marcski (Nov 6, 2006)

Good luck, that is a sweet bike.  The ksyrium wheels are great.  I'd like to upgrade to those eventually.  I recently made a Carbon purchase but didn't spend nearly as much as you.  I ended up with a Giant TCR C3.  It's really my first road bike (i'm more of a mtn guy), so I don't have much to compare it to, but I haven't noticed much flex if any, even when out of the saddle uphill and I'm a big guy, ~200.  IMHO, if your not racing that 15% difference between the 2 won't mean much.


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## saus (Nov 6, 2006)

marcski said:


> Good luck, that is a sweet bike.  The ksyrium wheels are great.  I'd like to upgrade to those eventually.  I recently made a Carbon purchase but didn't spend nearly as much as you.  I ended up with a Giant TCR C3.  It's really my first road bike (i'm more of a mtn guy), so I don't have much to compare it to, but I haven't noticed much flex if any, even when out of the saddle uphill and I'm a big guy, ~200.  IMHO, if your not racing that 15% difference between the 2 won't mean much.



I was saying that the one I'm buying at less than half the price of the Orca is 15% STIFFER in the frame than the Orca frame. I'm not complaining!:grin: Stiffer is BETTER!

I actually made the choice based on the stiffer, lighter Krsyrium wheels, though. All of the Orbea Onix models have the same frame. Only the components and the wheels are different - oh, and the colors are different.

Let's say that I can hardly wait to get it. I will go anywhere I must to ride it on clear pavement. I have a feeling that that will be right here for a while to come.

FWIW, I'm 5'8" and 160 pounds after dinner.


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## Johnny Tsunami (Jun 21, 2007)

*Weighty Issue*



saus said:


> Another question from a new but enthusiastic bicycle rider: For a road bike not used for carrying packs or cargo other than a rider, to be used for things like centuries on paved roads, what would be a reasonable bicycle weight? What's higher than reasonable, what's needlessly low, etc? Considering that this is not for racing, is the difference between two pounds and three pounds significant? What difference would that extra pound make for the rider?



You'd like it to be under 20 pounds.  The minimun weight allowed by professional race rules is 15 pounds.  If you want to spend $$ to lighten a bike, the place to spent it is in rotating weight like wheels & pedals & crank.  

For the record, my 12 year old Klein is 18.5 pounds - with wheel upgrades.  Remember too not to sacrifice strength for lightness.  

Plus, look at your own frame (your body) and see if you should drop a pound or two!  It's easier and a lot cheaper to take a pound off you than it is to take it off the bike


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## bruno (Jun 21, 2007)

as a wise man once pointed out, all bikes weigh forty pounds--a 20 pound bike needs a 20 pound lock, a 30 pound bike needs a 10 pound lock and a 40 pound bike doesn't need a lock.:dunce::beer::razz::smile:


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## AHM (Jun 21, 2007)

*The Ti ride........................*

Saus:  I think we have been here before, or at least last year someone was asking a whole lot about Ti frames and the Ti ride and buying a new bike from somewhere in Burlington VT

I ride both a Ti road bike and MTB (ok, let the abuse start!).  Do I ride Ti cus it is cool or costs a lot or I make a bunch of $$$ ???  None of those reasons.  In fact if we probably compared incomes of the average Ti rider I would be on the low end.

I ride Ti frames because they last and they offer superb ride quality.  Nothing removes road and off road vibrations like Ti.  I have had a lot of high tech steel frames (1000 - 1600 $ types).  In the end, they all broke and most often rust through was the culprit.  

When I bought a Ti MTB (Moots YBB), I knew it would sometimes sit full of mud after a nasty late fall ride (might even sit like that all winter).  8 years later, the Ti MTB is running flawlessly.  No issues with the frame, etc.  Pretty much every component has been replaced at least once, but the frame is still cranking along like it was brand new.

My Ti roadbike is a litespeed Tuscany.  Total weight is about 16 lb.  It has carbon fork, seat post, crank and bar and Mavic Kysrium SL wheels.  With this set up, rough oil and stone roads can't even be felt, even after 40 - 60 miles (typical training ride).

Overall, a Ti bike will ride great for decades, soften up the harshness of the road or trail and do it every single ride.

On buying Ti.  Look closely, as not all Ti bikes are equal.  The weld differences between my litespeed and Moots are significant.  The Moots blows the LS away, and LS's are considered nice bikes.  So, talk to the manufacturer and do your research because a Ti bike will set you back some serious coin.

And why did I buy the LS over a Moots road bike..............cost.  Couldn't justify the expense of the Moots for the road ride.


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## jplynch019 (Jun 22, 2007)

Guys.  First off I'm glad to see that Bruno has voiced in on this issue. Commuters know their bikes well, and how they respond.  You say you want to find a good ride to take you through a century, but you don't want to buy a pack mule.  My daily ride (40 miles per day) is 20 pounds.  That includes the seat bag with extra tube, bandages, patches, tire levers, allen wrenches, etc.   Also a hand pump, 2 water bottle cages, and a flashing tail light.  It has Carbon Fiber forks and seat post. The rest is aluminum.  The bike is scary responsive.  I switched from a heavy mountain bike to this road bike and for 2 months thought for sure I was going to kill myself.  Once I've gotten used to it I feel like a kid riding his first sting-ray

Of course the last part of the equation is money.  My ride went for $1200.  2 years later my son buys a comparable bike for $700.   Either of these machines will easily take you through a century.   (models:  Mine: Specialized Allez Elite Triple 2004, My sons: Specialized Allez Sport (2006).


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## bruno (Jun 23, 2007)

as everyone knows though--it ain't so much the weight of the bike (to a point) but the engine. that bein' said my road bike weighs around 22 punds fully loaded with the crap i carry around (and my beloved fenders).:flag::dunce::beer:


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## MonkeyBrook (Jul 9, 2007)

my new customized ride weighs in at 15.3.  But then again, if I lose 5 lbs...it makes the bike and rider even lighter.


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