# Tipping: What's your policy?



## Nick (Jun 23, 2011)

How much do you leave, what are your guidelines. 

Do you tip pre-tax or post-tax? 

I'll let some people post up then I"ll give my take (having been a bartender in college for four years!)


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## Edd (Jun 23, 2011)

About 20% for a full boat of meal/drinks.

For just beers right at the bar definitely a buck when I get a beer.  That can change when I get more or sometimes I flake and just give a buck for a round.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2011)

20% on top of check total including tax for average service.  I'll tip the same for bad service if I can tell it's not the servers fault.  I'm paying the server, not the slow cook in the kitchen.

25% for great service
North of that for exceptional service and a memorable evening

15% on pretax total if the service is bad and the server is to blame.

An exception would be Breakfast.  If my wife and I have breakfast at a diner and the check total comes to $20?  The server usually gets $10 for good service because I know he or she has worked just as hard serving me as someone who serves me dinner at night for 4+ times the money.  Not the servers fault that the value of the food is so much less than dinner food when they're working just as hard.

but, I'm biased.  I've worked in Food and Beverage all my life, from being a waiter, bartender, restaurant manager, catering manager, now restaurant supplier.  I know how tough the business is at all levels from management down to the bus boy.  So I take care of them often in ways I rationally can't really afford to do.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm at pretty much the same tipping idea as deadhead. Been in the industry from the bottom up for 25 years. A little extra does a ton off good for the good service. I got a 500 dollar tip for doing a job from the back a couple weeks ago, that was fucking HUGE for me and I will remember these people in September when they are back. I tip regular bartenders extra good....


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

Typically 15-20% depending on service. Mediocre, 15, good 20. I have had instance where the service has been so bad, I left 2 cent. Some folks will call that cheap, I say I'm paying good money in a restaurant, I expect good service. That doesn't mean waiting on me hand and foot. I have had instance where we waited 15-20 minutes before someone even came and then gotten dirty plates and snotty service. Sorry, that doesn't deserve a tip


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> . I have had instance where the service has been so bad, I left 2 cent. Some folks will call that cheap,



nope, not cheap

just bad character


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> nope, not cheap
> 
> just bad character



Why, a tip is a gratuity for good service, not an entitlement someone deserves regardless of the service you get. What I had mentioned is not common, only happened maybe twice in my life, I'm 54. If someone served you food and spit in it before they served you, do you feel it would be bad character to leave 2 cents?  Not saying that's what happened, just trying to make a point.


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## 2knees (Jun 24, 2011)

somehow, this pic fits somewhere....


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## Nick (Jun 24, 2011)

I've only had service so bad that I didn't tip a single time. I think I waited literally 50 minutes for the server, and an hour for the food. I almost just left the restaurant in the middle of it. The real reason though was the waitress was just an ass, totally unsympathetic and could care less about the wait in any capacity.

I think it was a Chili's or something.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Why, a tip is a gratuity for good service, not an entitlement someone deserves regardless of the service you get. What I had mentioned is not common, only happened maybe twice in my life, I'm 54. If someone served you food and spit in it before they served you, do you feel it would be bad character to leave 2 cents?  Not saying that's what happened, just trying to make a point.



Dude I run the back so honestly I could care less but......

You would be better off just leaving if you you saw truly bad service coming. I hope you at least explained to the server or bartender why you left a two cent tip, enlighten them. Two pennys on a spoon is done in cowardly and shameless fashion at least 95% of the time. 

I've had a crazy week and a few beers so don't take anything I say too seriously hahah:flame:


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

Nick said:


> I've only had service so bad that I didn't tip a single time. I think I waited literally 50 minutes for the server, and an hour for the food. I almost just left the restaurant in the middle of it. The real reason though was the waitress was just an ass, totally unsympathetic and could care less about the wait in any capacity.
> 
> I think it was a Chili's or something.



Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about.. Typically, as stated, I will leave between 15 and 20%. At times have left a bit more, but not often. And for 20%, I don't expect people jumping like crazy around me. Just decent, friendly, prompt service. I don't think that's asking too much if you're paying $60-$100+ for dinner for two. If a waiter/waitress, is slow, none caring, bad attitude, that will typically result in 15% just cause I realize they are people, they are making less than me, I wouldn't want to be doing the job, and hey, they may just be having a bad day.


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

20% pretax for me is standard. I'll round up or down a buck or two if I thought service was somewhat above or below expectation. 25% pretax for exceptional service. 15% for unsatisfactory service. If I feel I was truly wronged bad terrible service with no excuse, I have occasionally dipped down to 10%. I don't feel too great about a 10% tip and I'll only do that if I feel the server really screwed us with terrible service.

Like DHS, I'll often not penalize the server if things are going wrong out of their control. In a matter of fact, I'll often tip higher than average if the server is having a bad night because of things out of their control but they are still working hard and trying to compensate as best they can for problems. I don't tip more at breakfast though because breakfast prices are pretty much on par with lunch/pub prices usually.


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## Cannonball (Jun 24, 2011)

...


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> Dude I run the back so honestly I could care less but......
> 
> You would be better off just leaving if you you saw truly bad service coming. I hope you at least explained to the server or bartender why you left a two cent tip, enlighten them. Two pennys on a spoon is done in cowardly and shameless fashion at least 95% of the time.



this.

and it's not always the server's fault.  The hostess might be a moron and sat the server 6 tables at once. The kitchen might be understaffed, so the food is coming out slow.  The hostess, typically an hourly paid position who is getting paid no matter what happens, can often ruin the flow and service at a restaurant more than a bad server can.

If the server truly has a bad attitude, take it up with the manager.  If I was running the place, I'd take that server off the table and find another person who would better serve you or I'd serve you myself.

If you've exhausted all means of giving the establishment the chance to make things right, whether that's getting you a new server, taking 50% off the bill or even comping your meal if it's been truly awful and the restaurant has done none of those things?  Then leave and don't leave a tip at all.  I've actually done this once for truly the most horrendous dining experience in my life.  But, don't leave two cents.  Sorry, not cheap, bad character.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> Dude I run the back so honestly I could care less but......
> 
> You would be better off just leaving if you you saw truly bad service coming. I hope you at least explained to the server or bartender why you left a two cent tip, enlighten them. Two pennys on a spoon is done in cowardly and shameless fashion at least 95% of the time.
> 
> I've had a crazy week and a few beers so don't take anything I say too seriously hahah:flame:



I have left when I saw bad service coming, or no service. However, sometimes you don't realize the service will be bad that quick. Explain to server? Do they explain to you why they are giving you  crappy service, keep in mind, I'm not talking subpar, I'm talking crap. Is it a customers responsibility to explain anything to a waiter or waitress, if you believe so and are in the business, I suggest you get out.


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## HD333 (Jun 24, 2011)

20% usually rounded up for good service. Places  we are regulars at and are familiar with the waitstaff 25% is my norm.
Very rarely do I go below 20% unless service was terrible and then the standard 15% applies sometimes rounded down, it won't be a surprise to the server as they would have been told how we felt.
The wife says I over tip, especially if the waitress or bartender is cute.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm a 20%+ tipper most of the time. I've spent enough time working in restaurants I can usually tell if I'm getting bad service or if the kitchen is screwing things up. But I can also be more critical of wait service at times because I know what they should be doing. Really bad service gets 10-15%. I don't think I've ever stiffed anyone.


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## gmcunni (Jun 24, 2011)

i'd suspect that a waiter/waitress under delivering on service knows that its going on and little or no tip, while pissing them off, isn't a shocker to them.  

personally i've never done that (no tip). i think on a rare occasion (like andy, 1 or 2 times in my life) i've left 10% for what i felt at the time was the crappiest service ever.    if things are out of the their control (backed up kitchen etc) they should be keeping  me (the customer) updated rather then simply ignoring me.

generally i shoot for 20% of total bill (cuz it is easy math).  i take a point or two off for bad service (not same as above/crap service) i'll add a point or 2 for extreme niceness or cuteness ;-)

this past weekend at a place (not fancy) i actually had one of the best waitresses in recent memory. she was very friendly, chatty in an polite way. brought things out before we asked for them (refills + stuff) and was just plain nice.  she was young and new on the job (when we asked about a dish she didn't lie but rather said, i'm new here and haven't tried those but other people  . .  . .)  but her personality made up for her lack of experience.  she got bonus $$ and as we left we made sure to tell the manager that we thought Ashely did a great job.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> I have left when I saw bad service coming, or no service. However, sometimes you don't realize the service will be bad that quick. Explain to server? Do they explain to you why they are giving you  crappy service, keep in mind, I'm not talking subpar, I'm talking crap. Is it a customers responsibility to explain anything to a waiter or waitress, if you believe so and are in the business, I suggest you get out.



Not the customers responsibility, just good character:razz:

I honestly eat out rarely, so the odds of getting bad service are pretty low. I find the whole experience of eating out exhausting and overall a pain in the ass. I'll cook my own fish thank you very much:beer:


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## Black Phantom (Jun 24, 2011)

I tip well.

Amazing how a discussion about tipping turns into a question of one's character. Can't make this stuff up.

I usually never put change in a tip jar. Especially at take out places.


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## Geoff (Jun 24, 2011)

I tip 20%.   I tip higher for inexpensive breakfasts & lunches.


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## Cannonball (Jun 24, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> ...



Just for the record, ^That's not my policy...just a killer scene.

I tip well.  20% standard with more for good service.  I have tipped 50% - 100% on a many occasions for excellent service.  But I also have no tolerance for bad service and have no problem leaving minimal to no tip for a-holes.

We've got any interesting thing going on at a local bar.  The serve $0.99 PBR pints.  As soon as you order one, the bar service goes to hell.  I've gotten to know a few of the bartenders and they say that they don't waste their time serving cheap beer because the tips aren't worth it.  This is ironic to me because I end up leaving HUGE tips when the beer is cheap simply because I end up with a good buzz and a lot of left over cash in my pocket.  Now the bartenders that know that give me great service....the others I still can't get a second beer from.


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## gmcunni (Jun 24, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> I usually never put change in a tip jar. Especially at take out places.



i do and apparently its rubbed off on my son.  i give him a few bucks to pickup something and when i ask for the change he tells me he left it in the tip jar.  when it was a $6 purchase and i gave him a $10 i start to scratch my head.. maybe i should frisk him.


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## marcski (Jun 24, 2011)

I also have experience working in restaurants....I generally tip 20% pretax. If it's awful awful service I will go to 10-15%.  I will also say something to mgt if the service is really bad too.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

I leave change in the tip jar at D&D or whatever.  Chances are that D&D worker put just as much effort into making my ice coffee as a bartender did in pouring me a beer and probably make a similar hourly wage.  Same goes for take out.  Takes that counter person just as much time and effort to gather all my things together as it takes a bartender to pour my beer.


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## Geoff (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't tip takeout.   That's like tipping the cashier in the grocery store when you buy a rotisserie chicken.


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2011)

Attack of the food industry workers!

I too have spent the majority of my work life in the food industry. I leave 20% pre-tax. Service would have to be extraordinarily poor for me to leave less than that. Servers make nothing in salary and depend on their tips. I've gone to restaurants with primadonnas who have special preparation requests and who never seem to be happy with their meal. So they leave a poor tip for the server which is just plain wrong because the server has no control over food quality other than timely delivery to the table.

Frankly, if the service is really bad my policy is to inform the manager, cancel my order, and leave the establishment. Only happened once in my life when a server made a racial comment to my wife who is Jamaican.


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## gmcunni (Jun 24, 2011)

Geoff said:


> I don't tip takeout.   That's like tipping the cashier in the grocery store when you buy a rotisserie chicken.



what about at buffet ?


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## o3jeff (Jun 24, 2011)

I think tipping is getting a little out of hand, if someone touches a product now it seems like they want a tip now a days.


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## Riverskier (Jun 24, 2011)

Geoff said:


> I don't tip takeout.   That's like tipping the cashier in the grocery store when you buy a rotisserie chicken.



+1


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## Riverskier (Jun 24, 2011)

I tip 20% on the full bill. Just slightly higher or lower than that for really good or really bad service, but I am pretty consistent. At bars I tip $1 a drink, unless buying multiple drinks at once and then it varies.


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> I think tipping is getting a little out of hand, if someone touches a product now it seems like they want a tip now a days.



I'm not a fan of restaurants that automatically put a gratuity charge onto your bill. That's not for them to decide, but I understand that it foils deadbeats who don't tip. Still wrong in my book.

Since they usually tack on 18%, I'll tell the server that they need to go to a restaurant without that policy because they are getting screwed out of the 2% extra I usually leave at 20%, then I make up the difference.


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## SkiDork (Jun 24, 2011)




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## Glenn (Jun 24, 2011)

Usually 20%. We've had bad service and just leave less than 20%.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jun 24, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> what about at buffet ?


Buffets make it difficult, since they are really just a busboy.  I always do leave $ though.  $2-3 per person I guess.



o3jeff said:


> I think tipping is getting a little out of hand, if someone touches a product now it seems like they want a tip now a days.


Exactly.  While I do understand that waiters do make less than normal because of tipping, they chose to work in that line of work.  If you have horrible people skills, or are just a bad waiter than no I am not going to give you a great tip just because.  At my work if I am not capable of doing the work properly or my bad people skills get me in trouble with customers I am going to be let go, and then I have no money.

As far as what I tip...15-20% is normal depending on the service, can be lower, can be higher.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 24, 2011)

15-20% BUT poor performance should NEVER be rewarded in ANY profession . - just sayin


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## bvibert (Jun 24, 2011)

Usually in the 20% range.  We tend to round up unless the service wasn't very good.  I've never left nothing, and I don't think I ever could or would.


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## Grassi21 (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> An exception would be Breakfast.  If my wife and I have breakfast at a diner and the check total comes to $20?  The server usually gets $10 for good service because I know he or she has worked just as hard serving me as someone who serves me dinner at night for 4+ times the money.  Not the servers fault that the value of the food is so much less than dinner food when they're working just as hard.



I can't agree more on this point.  I am a 20+% guy myself with the exception of the breakfast phenomenon that DHS described.


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## gmcunni (Jun 24, 2011)

Grassi21 said:


> I can't agree more on this point.  I am a 20+% guy myself with the exception of the breakfast phenomenon that DHS described.



does the same logic apply for an overpriced dinner?  the cost of materials is higher but the service to deliver it is the same so tip less than 20%?


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> does the same logic apply for an overpriced dinner?  the cost of materials is higher but the service to deliver it is the same so tip less than 20%?



That's a good point.

I don't apply the same logic as typically an evening server needs to have much more knowledge about food, wine, liquor etc. 

I guess I just feel cheap leaving $3 for a 20% tip on a $15 meal when the server has busted their ass bringing me my food, making sure my coffee is full etc.  Well, the latter is for most people.  I actually don't like breakfast servers refilling my coffee until I've finished the cup.  Screws up my sugar/cream/coffee ratio :lol:

general minimum for me on tipping is $5 per person in the party.


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## bvibert (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, the latter is for most people.  I actually don't like breakfast servers refilling my coffee until I've finished the cup.  Screws up my sugar/cream/coffee ratio :lol:



Not being a coffee drinker I always wondered about that...


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## Nick (Jun 24, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> I think tipping is getting a little out of hand, if someone touches a product now it seems like they want a tip now a days.



Do you tip other people? I'm horrible at tipping outside of restaurants, i think. For example, the mailman or the garbageman around Christmas.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

How about haircuts?

Place I go charges $16.  Girl gets $6 as a tip


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## bvibert (Jun 24, 2011)

When I used to go somewhere to get my hair cut I'd tip a few dollars at most.


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## gmcunni (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> How about haircuts?
> 
> Place I go charges $16.  Girl gets $6 as a tip



place i go used to charge $16 for mens haircut. give a $20 and not think much about it.   then the place raised the cost to $17.  most people still just give the $20 so the workers get screwed.  i give $21, don't think it fair to short change the girl who cuts my hair.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 24, 2011)

The Queen cuts my hair  or what's left of it  and BELIEVE me that costs a helluva lot more than $21 ROFLMBFAO


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## Nick (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> general minimum for me on tipping is $5 per person in the party.



Per person?


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## Nick (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> How about haircuts?
> 
> Place I go charges $16.  Girl gets $6 as a tip



My wife cuts my hair. What about pizza delivery? I usually give at least $4 - i remember growing up my dad would always just leave a dollar. :roll:


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

pizza man gets $3


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## Edd (Jun 24, 2011)

What do you food industry guys think of this?

Years ago an old girlfriend and I were having dinner at a bar/restaurant in a ski town.  There was live music and it was crowded.  We ordered beers throughout and service was acceptable.  After dinner we ordered more beers and planned to keep drinking because our hotel room was a one minute walk from there.  

The waitress informs us that, because we are no longer eating, we need to pay the tab and leave the table to make way for new diners.  We are, of course, welcome to step 5 feet away into the bar area and keep enjoying the band.  She was in no way apologetic about this.

We were shocked.  This policy appeared to be posted nowhere, and we weren't informed upon arriving.  Up until this point we were very comfortable and having a good time.  

We didn't tip.  We stepped a few feet away and watched the band.  The waitress approaches us and asks why and we told her.  I can't remember what she said while walking away but it was something pissy.  Several minutes later the manager approaches us, apologizes for what happened, and buys us a free round.  

She strongly indicated that the waitress had made a mistake but to this day I'm still not sure what the hell happened.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

Edd said:


> What do you food industry guys think of this?
> 
> Years ago an old girlfriend and I were having dinner at a bar/restaurant in a ski town.  There was live music and it was crowded.  We ordered beers throughout and service was acceptable.  After dinner we ordered more beers and planned to keep drinking because our hotel room was a one minute walk from there.
> 
> ...



The way I would have dealt with this is to explain that I needed to turn that table over, bought you all a round for the inconvenience and all likely would have been good. Taking a potentially negative situation and turning into a positive one is what its all about....

Consider each table real estate, the faster you can turn them over the more you make. It can be the difference between being profitable and operating at a loss. Your waitress didn't get it for sure...


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## Nick (Jun 24, 2011)

It's a tough line for restaurants. Nothing sucks up profit thatn someone sitting at a table for four hours. When I used to bartend at Chili's (haha)  in college I remember this one group of four ladies would come in and just order a coffee each and sit there for literally five or six hours getting coffee refills. The total tab would be like $8.  And they would literally leave a $2 tip. For sucking up my table for five hours :evil:


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## billski (Jun 24, 2011)

Cow tipping.

You can always get a good chuckle out of city-folk when you tell them about it!


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## Edd (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> The way I would have dealt with this is to explain that I needed to turn that table over, bought you all a round for the inconvenience and all likely would have been good. Taking a potentially negative situation and turning into a positive one is what its all about....
> 
> Consider each table real estate, the faster you can turn them over the more you make. It can be the difference between being profitable and operating at a loss. Your waitress didn't get it for sure...



If the waitress had taken that approach I agree it would have gone smoother.  As a person who eats dinner out 3 nights a week minimum I appreciate the economics/logistics regarding turning tables over.

But shouldn't it be ok to keep a table if you continue to drink booze?  At my favorite place, a few minutes walk from where I live, I eat and keep the table for hours after while my friends and I continue to buy drinks.  This place is busy and they would never kick someone off a table simply because they weren't eating.  

I should be clear...we drink alot.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

Riverworks is a locals joint.  So I can see how they let people camp, especially regulars.

Ski town restaurant is going to try and milk as much money out of as many tourists as possible on a busy night.  Service often suffers because they know the chances are very high that the customer may never be back to eat again anyways.

I would've handled it like snoseek.  

At fine dining restaurants I've managed, I let parties know right up front when they make reservations for a busy night that I will need the table in two hours time for the next party.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

I used to work at a fine dining facility that would charge 15 dollars for an empty plate should two people want to split a meal. I nearly got written up as a young pm sous chef because I split and plated the food for them. Stupid policy IMO, they didn't get it at the time. I'm betting they get it now, that was ridiculous.


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## Geoff (Jun 24, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> place i go used to charge $16 for mens haircut. give a $20 and not think much about it.   then the place raised the cost to $17.  most people still just give the $20 so the workers get screwed.  i give $21, don't think it fair to short change the girl who cuts my hair.



Yep.  $5.00 is my minimum haircut tip unless they screw it up.   When it's $16.00 or $17.00, I often have to break another yuppie food stamp to get the $5.00.   If it's a really good haircut, I give a few extra bucks but a generric "boys regular" gets $5.00.


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> How about haircuts?
> 
> Place I go charges $16.  Girl gets $6 as a tip



37% 

On a $15 cut I'll do $2-3. I generally don't get many above par cuts or service. It is all pretty much standard.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

Geoff said:


> I don't tip takeout.   That's like tipping the cashier in the grocery store when you buy a rotisserie chicken.



Agreed, that's just getting out of hand. 

With regards to a DD person working as hard as a bartender agreed as well. But, the main reason I tip a bartender is I know I will want more drinks. And they always seem to get their faster with a lil tip


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

JimG. said:


> Attack of the food industry workers!
> 
> I too have spent the majority of my work life in the food industry. I leave 20% pre-tax. Service would have to be extraordinarily poor for me to leave less than that. Servers make nothing in salary and depend on their tips. I've gone to restaurants with primadonnas who have special preparation requests and who never seem to be happy with their meal. So they leave a poor tip for the server which is just plain wrong because the server has no control over food quality other than timely delivery to the table.
> 
> Frankly, if the service is really bad my policy is to inform the manager, cancel my order, and leave the establishment. Only happened once in my life when a server made a racial comment to my wife who is Jamaican.




On the flip side, I go to a restaurant and pay good money for a meal and drinks. I may spend $30 - $50 per meal on something that would cost me less than half that at home, I am paying for preparation of may food as well as service. Is it my fault that servers make next to nothing in salary? Someone please explain to me, why is a gratuity system in place?


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

Nick said:


> My wife cuts my hair.



My wife cuts my hair as well. I try to give her a tip as often as possible. But not only doesn't she always want it. Sometimes I have to chase here around to give it to her! But it's all good


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Someone please explain to me, why is a gratuity system in place?


I didn't hit much on this but it is a crappy system, IMO. Tipping is supposed to reward good service. But what the system has become is 15% is expected minimum. Most people do 20% because the system makes us feel responsible for paying the way of the worker because we know their hourly wage sucks and it is such a hard job. Instead of actually paying for performance, we establish a standard and going only slightly higher or lower for great or poor service. This is unfair to those providing great service and makes it so even bad servers can make good money.

A few years back on NPR they did an informal study and found that the best tips were given to servers who were not overly helpful and friendly but rather servers that got everything done required of them but were firm and almost a little stressed due to things being busy or something like that. It basically suggested there was no reason for servers to give 110% as the financial rewards didn't follow.

But who would take a serving job for minimum wage without tips? Serving jobs get snapped up because people want quick and good money. Even only averaging 10% tips, three tables an hour, at $50 average meal, that is $15/hour plus minimum tip wage. That is pretty damn good money. Of course there are a lot of server jobs with less per plate average, slow times, whatev...

The system works great for the food establishments because they pay very little per wage hour and the customer basically picks up the employees wage. That also means food prices are less than they might be if establishments had to pay minimum non-tip wage... and who is going to work that type of job for $7.25 an hour? So I guess it works.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I didn't hit much on this but it is a crappy system, IMO. Tipping is supposed to reward good service. But what the system has become is 15% is expected minimum. Most people do 20% because the system makes us feel responsible for paying the way of the worker because we know their hourly wage sucks and it is such a hard job. Instead of actually paying for performance, we establish a standard and going only slightly higher or lower for great or poor service. This is unfair to those providing great service and makes it so even bad servers can make good money.



I couldn't have said better, thank you!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> 37%
> 
> On a $15 cut I'll do $2-3. I generally don't get many above par cuts or service. It is all pretty much standard.



It's a service I appreciate, even if I only get my hair cut once every two months and it's nothing special.

My understanding is hairdressers in the area only make about 20K a year at your typical Supercuts or whatever.  I think the occupation is deserving of more than that. Not a lot more, but some. So, leaving an extra $2-3 from what is normal (small alpinezone sample size here) isn't really all that much money to me, we're talking $12-$15 dollars a year.  They treat me well, the little bit extra is always appreciated and if it helps make their day when they might've gotten stiffed earlier in the day, I'm happy to do it.

Tip whoever cuts my hair right before the holidays $20 as well as who can't use a bit of extra cash around that time of year.  Leave a ten spot in my mail box during Xmas week for my mail man too.


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## marcski (Jun 24, 2011)

My haircut costs ... I think $14 or 15 they raised it within the last few months..I give him a 20.



Here's one: What do you do when you order take out from a regular restaurant like a bar or pub?  Tip or no tip? Is that different from  "normal" take out like a local pizza or Chinese joint?


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

Take out never gets a tip. There is no service. You don't get a tip if the only service you provide is hand me a bag and swipe my card. I only am paying for the product.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Someone please explain to me, why is a gratuity system in place?



The same reason Salesmen make commission.  If you leave it up to the individual to work harder and make more money for both the company (up selling) and themselves (great service), the customer is treated better.

It's a win win win.  The customer wins.  The company offering product wins.  The employee wins.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> The same reason Salesmen make commission.  If you leave it up to the individual to work harder and make more money for both the company (up selling) and themselves (great service), the customer is treated better.
> 
> It's a win win win.  The customer wins.  The company offering product wins.  The employee wins.



Sorry, flawed reasoning. It is not the customer determining, and paying, commission amount, instead it is the company.  Commission is based on units sold, not quality of service Using this reasoning, the restaurant should be paying the server the tip for each table he/she serves and customer would leave no tip. I would be all for that system.


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

I agree with andyzee. If tipping ensured customers got better service, how come we so infrequently feel like we receive great service? Tipping is simply an accepted system, it is a standard. It is an obligation from the customers perspective. Look back at this thread and see how many people said they tip either 15% or 20% always, maybe rounding up or down slightly for better than average service. Great service may or may not be recognized with great tips, it frequently is not. I suspect quality of service is more driven by management and an individual's work either and level of ownership rather than tipping driving performance. 

The difference between commission for a sales person and tipping for a server is the commission is directly and completely tied to performance. Whereas tips are tied to societal standards and what customers identify is appropriate for average service, give or take a buck or two.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

Eliminate tipping and the price of a decent plate would go up drastically, it's a psychological thing. There also is less incentive for quality service. I've seen this with certain caterers that pay a flat wage and pocket the 18 percent gratuity, complete bullshit imo. Servers are driven by money alot of the time which is perfectly ok with me.

Would you all be ok with a 40 dollar sirloin at a casual restaurant?


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> Eliminate tipping and the price of a decent plate would go up drastically, it's a psychological thing. There also is less incentive for quality service. I've seen this with certain caterers that pay a flat wage and pocket the 18 percent gratuity, complete bullshit imo. Servers are driven by money alot of the time which is perfectly ok with me.
> 
> Would you all be ok with a 40 dollar sirloin at a casual restaurant?



Have you heard of a thing called competition, that would should help price down, quality up, if not, business drops. I have no problem with the concept of tipping and the whole system, but as riverc0il stated, the system has become flawed. It is most definitely advantageous to the restaurants.


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> Eliminate tipping and the price of a decent plate would go up drastically, it's a psychological thing. There also is less incentive for quality service. I've seen this with certain caterers that pay a flat wage and pocket the 18 percent gratuity, complete bullshit imo. Servers are driven by money alot of the time which is perfectly ok with me.
> 
> Would you all be ok with a 40 dollar sirloin at a casual restaurant?


That question is a bit disingenuous. If I am tipping 20% on a $17 sirloin with a $3 beverage, the tip would be $4 for a total of $24. Two people with the same mean is $40 meal for $48 tip for an $8 difference. Theoretically, if the establishment had to pay the wagers of servers instead of relying on tips, prices would only go up equivalent to the tips. Actually, they would probably go up less because of the way wages and businesses work, skim a little fluff off the top. To suggest that by paying a wage instead of tips that a $17 sirloin would more than double is crazy.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Have you heard of a thing called competition, that would should help price down, quality up, if not, business drops. I have no problem with the concept of tipping and the whole system, but as riverc0il stated, the system has become flawed. It is most definitely advantageous to the restaurants.



Aside from chains which I know nothing about there isn't a whole hell of a lot of play in pricing. Markup is less than you would expect. It is extremely tight already. You can't roll the cost of a server into the restaurants labor budget and expect not to see drastic price increases. Trust me, you can plan on much higher menu prices and overall less incentive to be a server. There are a few that are really good at it, make great money and actually enjoy it. They do it because they want to, not because they have to. This is what I have always looked for in cooks and pay a premium for it. Those are your exceptional servers/bartenders and you better beleive they would be long gone.


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> That question is a bit disingenuous. If I am tipping 20% on a $17 sirloin with a $3 beverage, the tip would be $4 for a total of $24. Two people with the same mean is $40 meal for $48 tip for an $8 difference. Theoretically, if the establishment had to pay the wagers of servers instead of relying on tips, prices would only go up equivalent to the tips. Actually, they would probably go up less because of the way wages and businesses work, skim a little fluff off the top. To suggest that by paying a wage instead of tips that a $17 sirloin would more than double is crazy.



Ok maybe not that drastic. I was thniking a 30 dollar sirloin going to 40. My bad.

The employer would now be stuck with increased payroll taxes (you don't really thnik servers claim all that they make do you?) and increased pressure for benefits. All of my FT kitchen staff has good benefits, health, 401 ect...... the servers are more freelence/hustling $$$$. Put them on an hourly wage and they will want equal treatment. 

The good servers make quite a bit. It would take a pretty hefty hourly wage to keep them around.....


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## Geoff (Jun 24, 2011)

So Mr Pink has the ideal strategy.   Let all the other suckers tip to subsidize the wait staff and don't tip at all.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2011)

snoseek said:


> Aside from chains which I know nothing about there isn't a whole hell of a lot of play in pricing. Markup is less than you would expect. It is extremely tight already. You can't roll the cost of a server into the restaurants labor budget and expect not to see drastic price increases. Trust me, you can plan on much higher menu prices and overall less incentive to be a server. There are a few that are really good at it, make great money and actually enjoy it. They do it because they want to, not because they have to. This is what I have always looked for in cooks and pay a premium for it. Those are your exceptional servers/bartenders and you better beleive they would be long gone.



Good logic, but let's look at it from a different angle. Let''s say you have a $30 steak, you leave a 20% tip, the price is now $36. If we do away with the tipping system, pay the  $36 for the steak up front you say there is no reason for the server to provide better service. OK, server is making decent money, so he's got a reason to want to keep his/her job, if he doesn't provide good service, he drives customers away. As a result, good servers will now be more important to the restaurant. Going by what most folks say in this thread, bad character to leave anything less than 15%-20%, what incentive do servers have to provide good service?

Another thing, you say mark up isn't so great, I agree, on entrées. But what about drinks and desserts?


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## snoseek (Jun 24, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Another thing, you say mark up isn't so great, I agree, on entrées. But what about drinks and desserts?



yeah markup on drinks is generally much more. It has to be to make up for the fact that often the food operates at a loss or provides very little towards the bottom line. some places make it on the food, some don't. If it is a food focused place then they better.

Desserts-well if they are actually made in house then yes there is a relatively good markup. Othere than that the overall cost of good can be as high as 50 percent for premade stuff(the norm these day it seems). If you ran those numbers overall there would be certain failure for most assuming there is a mortgage/lease involved. Desserts is all about drawer contribution, money that you wouldn't have anyway/cash flow. I make all my stuff in-house only for the fact that it helps keep the COG below 38 percent-my magic number.

I still have to ponder the other part of what you said. Maybe some of that gap between 36 and 40 dollars would be filled with increased payroll taxes/benefits. I think there would be less efficiency due to the lack of motivation? not sure....

I'm pretty sure that being able to "keep your job" would not really be motivation enough for front of the house to provide exceptional service. Even with unemployment the way it's been the last few years, I have not seen a flood of talent rushing back into the industry. Many people are just not willing to do this or simply can't. I worked over 90 hours last week on a salary, I'm on day 26 and will not have another day off till july 4. I'm in the back so my motivation is a whole different animal but really how many are willing to work like that?

A good server/bartender IS key. Driving people away they Will eventually lose their job. A good server in the right place makes easily a couple hundred (or often more) a shift. Ten bucks an hour isn't going to cut it. This part of the formula doesn't change IMO.


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## riverc0il (Jun 24, 2011)

The gap to fill the payroll taxes would come from an average drop in wages relative to tips. I can't imagine a manager would be ready to pay a server $40 an hour because that is the equivalent they get in tips. The wage offering would be depressed and because the pay is so high there would be competition for the jobs. Servers would get paid less total but it would seem more because it would be such a high hourly rate. The difference then goes to payroll tax or the price of the food goes up again slightly.

The problems with this method is two fold.... even if the total cost is the same, sticker shock could set in for customers.... especially those that don't tip well. 

The other factor is servers who work busy times get paid accordingly. Those working during slow times get paid accordingly. How would a manager work that out for an hourly wage instead of tips? Legally you can't change someone's wage based on which shift they are working on any given day. You could pay day shift staff less than night shift staff if it was different staff. What about mid-week vs weekend? This is where tip system works. You move more tables, you get more money. And you gotta work your way up to get those good hours at places with expensive meals.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Sorry, flawed reasoning. It is not the customer determining, and paying, commission amount, instead it is the company.  Commission is based on units sold, not quality of service Using this reasoning, the restaurant should be paying the server the tip for each table he/she serves and customer would leave no tip. I would be all for that system.



You're absolutely right Andy.  As soon as I hit 'Submit Reply'  I realized that there is a fundamental difference between Salesman (company paid) and Restaurant (consumer paid) service. 

Very good point.

but there is part of my salesman comparison that does work and highlights a great positive of gratuity pay. I'll explain in the morning.


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## snoseek (Jun 25, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> The gap to fill the payroll taxes would come from an average drop in wages relative to tips. I can't imagine a manager would be ready to pay a server $40 an hour because that is the equivalent they get in tips. The wage offering would be depressed and because the pay is so high there would be competition for the jobs. Servers would get paid less total but it would seem more because it would be such a high hourly rate. The difference then goes to payroll tax or the price of the food goes up again slightly.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## roark (Jun 25, 2011)

Like so many of us, I've spent a lot of time in restaurants. It's been nearly a decade, but I've still done that more than my current industry. At some point I've held every role except head chef and owner. 

A few points I think need to be added to the discussion:

The problem with the tip being a reward is that simply isn't how the IRS sees it. 2 examples below:

The server pretty much always is tipping the busboy, bartender, host, food runner, and often the back of the house (sous chef, dishwasher). One restaurant I worked at if you tipped the expected amounts meant I would walk with 40-45% of what I collected. Yet that same place would report that I received (net) 10% on my pre-tax receipts for income tax purposes... negative paychecks were not uncommon (meaning the tax on reported tips exceeded the net hourly wage). I stayed awhile because I was good enough to average about 25%, barely enough to offset the increased tax load. If I get less than 21% on a table I'm paying tax on money I'm not receiving... Some might think this would encourage only the best service - I would reply that morale loss and increased inventory shrinkage more than offset any benefit - bad business practice is just that. I feel similarly about charging employees for meals at the end of a shift: I understand there are tax implications but when there is so much thrown out so regularly it drains morale. It's just bad practice (and probably the industry norm by now...)

In addition many states allow the restaurant to pay a reduced hourly wage because that person is receiving tips, so that on average they're still just at min wage. I would hope the server still comes out a little ahead, but working at truck stop diner in AZ is probably even less lucrative than most of us think.

riv: $40/hr? That is an exceptional night, even in a higher end restaurant. I'm sure some NYC, or other elite places might get that, but that sort of take home would be a stellar exception rather than the rule. Sure I had a few $100/hr nights, I also had quite a few $8/hr ones... it probably averaged out to ~$15 for most of my time on the floor. But a shift is probably 5-6 hours, and benefits like health insurance and 401(k) are non-existent.

Total guess, but I would expect that less than 10% of all servers clear $30k, and less than 5% gross more than $40k.


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## riverc0il (Jun 25, 2011)

roark said:


> riv: $40/hr? That is an exceptional night, even in a higher end restaurant.


I guess that is the problem of the tipping system for the servers because I based that assumption off what I tip. A $40 meal for me is an $8 tip. Dinner for five people when I take mom, my brother, and his S/O out was $80+ is at least a $16 tip for good service. I figure at five tables an hour, that would add up. But of course, not everyone is doing 20% (or higher for really good service). A server could work their pants off with great service and only get 10%. They could get all couples and non families. And of course there are slow nights and off hours. I should not have assumed all tables full at all hours, averaged out I can see a much lower average.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2011)

roark said:


> Like so many of us, I've spent a lot of time in restaurants. It's been nearly a decade, but I've still done that more than my current industry. At some point I've held every role except head chef and owner.
> 
> A few points I think need to be added to the discussion:
> 
> ...



roark, you bring up some excellent points. However, why should the industry's problem turn into a customer's problem. If there are issues within the industry, it's up to the industry to fix, not the customer. After all it is a customer centric industry.  I just completed a course in ITIL, a foundation for IT services. Although it is IT centric, I would say one of the first things they teach applies here as well:

Q: What is service?
A: Service is a means of delivering value to customers by facilitating  outcomes customers want to achieve without the ownership of specific costs and risks.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2011)

snoseek said:


> The way I would have dealt with this is to explain that I needed to turn that table over, bought you all a round for the inconvenience and all likely would have been good. Taking a potentially negative situation and turning into a positive one is what its all about....
> 
> Consider each table real estate, the faster you can turn them over the more you make. It can be the difference between being profitable and operating at a loss. Your waitress didn't get it for sure...



Exactly.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2011)

andyzee said:


> On the flip side, I go to a restaurant and pay good money for a meal and drinks. I may spend $30 - $50 per meal on something that would cost me less than half that at home, I am paying for preparation of may food as well as service. Is it my fault that servers make next to nothing in salary? Someone please explain to me, why is a gratuity system in place?



The chef gets his salary whether the food sucks or not.

The server depends on tips to make a living.

If the service stinks I agree that the tip should be smaller. But if the food stinks and the service is good, I can't punish the server. I just won't go back to that restaurant again.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2011)

JimG. said:


> The chef gets his salary whether the food sucks or not.
> 
> The server depends on tips to make a living.
> 
> If the service stinks I agree that the tip should be smaller. But if the food stinks and the service is good, I can't punish the server. I just won't go back to that restaurant again.



Agree 100%


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## hammer (Jun 27, 2011)

JimG. said:


> If the service stinks I agree that the tip should be smaller. But if the food stinks and the service is good, I can't punish the server. I just won't go back to that restaurant again.


Agree.

I personally wish that we didn't have a tipping system in place, but since we do I like to be reasonable.  I do tip a higher percentage for a haircut because at the prices I pay for the haircut I can't imagine that the stylist is making that much in wages.  For restaurant service, I go with 15% as a "baseline" and increase it to 20% if I was happy with the service.  I have gone as low as 10% when the service was bad but I've never left nothing.

I do admit I've had other situations where I don't know whether to tip...and in those cases I default to no.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

I actually do like that there is a tipping system place.  That way I get to decide what the service is worth to me, not the restaurant deciding.

I used to hate working at places that charged an automatic gratuity for parties larger than 6 or 8 people.  
I not only hated it because I generally always averaged higher than the 18%, but it upset more customers than it didn't.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2011)

hammer said:


> I do tip a higher percentage for a haircut because at the prices I pay for the haircut I can't imagine that the stylist is making that much in wages.



I doubt restaurant servers make any more than stylists do, but I have no idea really.

I tip more for a haircut because the effects of a bad hairstyle are more obvious and longer lasting than the effects of bad service at a restaurant.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2011)

Yesterday my wife and I went to a 50th wedding anniversary party at the New York Yacht Club in Newport.  We head to the bar (an open bar too) and got our drinks, I went to leave a tip, and the bartenders insisted that tipping wasn't allowed at this event   I felt really guilty since the way the bartender mixed my Tangeray and Tonic was about 5 fingers worth of Tangeray to just over 2 fingers of tonic water! 

Later on during the party as lunch was being served and people moved from the outside terrace where the cocktails were being served into the dining rooms we occupied, I went back out for another T&T and just happened to "drop" a $10 behind the bar


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## snoseek (Jun 27, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Yesterday my wife and I went to a 50th wedding anniversary party at the New York Yacht Club in Newport.  We head to the bar (an open bar too) and got our drinks, I went to leave a tip, and the bartenders insisted that tipping wasn't allowed at this event   I felt really guilty since the way the bartender mixed my Tangeray and Tonic was about 5 fingers worth of Tangeray to just over 2 fingers of tonic water!
> 
> Later on during the party as lunch was being served and people moved from the outside terrace where the cocktails were being served into the dining rooms we occupied, I went back out for another T&T and just happened to "drop" a $10 behind the bar



Years ago I worked at a private club where the members were not allowed to tip any staff. This was something house had voted on several years before. The service suffered greatly IMO and it was impossible to get in any quality help other than hospitality interns at one of the local colleges. I think the servers were making ten or eleven dollars an hour. The quality ones never stayed too long. It was maybe the only kitchen I ever worked in where dishwasher was making as much as the front of the house.

ps-that was nice of you!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

I think the service really depends on how well the staff are taken care of by the property if there is no gratuity.  

The Seaport Hotel in Boston is a gratuity free hotel.  They have the lowest staff turnover of any hotel in the city.  So, they must be doing something right for their employees.


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## andyzee (Jun 27, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I actually do like that there is a tipping system place.




Where is this tipping system place you speak of and how does it work? :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

could catch wiseguy.  missing an 'in'  :lol:


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## andyzee (Jun 27, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> could catch wiseguy.  missing an 'in'  :lol:



Sorry, couldn't pass that one up, thought it was kind of funny


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## billski (Jun 27, 2011)

I hear a common theme contained herein.   I'm with everyone who thinks tips should be all about good service.   Fundamentally, it's all about risk.  The business has shifted more of the risk onto the wait staff.  Risk: You have to work on the slowest day of the year.  Risk: The cook is poor, you serve nothing but garbage.  Risk: Management constrains your work environment.  Risk: The weather is bad, you had to come in, but no customers come in.  You get the idea.  

I understand that the restaurant takes risk as well.  However, they have lowered some of their risk by moving the costs onto the wait staff.

It just blows my mind that the restaurant only needs to pay some minor amount ($2/hour?) and that is the extent of their financial exposure.  I'd at least like to see something more fair, such as 80% of a fair wage.

I often tip more in a down economy because I know my tips contribute the major amount of their income.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

billski said:


> It just blows my mind that the restaurant only needs to pay some minor amount ($2/hour?) and that is the extent of their financial exposure.  I'd at least like to see something more fair, such as 80% of a fair wage.



In most states the law is the employees tips plus server wage must average minimum wage or greater or the restaurant is required to make up the difference.  

For the record, in 10 odd years of working in tipped positions as a server or bartender, only once did an employer have to boost my earnings for the week to meet minimum wage guidelines.  That was the dead of the off season where the hotel wanted to keep a restaurant open even if there were only a handful of people a night looking to eat.


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## billski (Jun 27, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I
> 
> For the record, in 10 odd years of working in tipped positions as a server or bartender, only once did an employer have to boost my earnings for the week to meet minimum wage guidelines.  .



how far above minimum wage you were averaging?   I worry about the "working poor" who I know, they work for more than $8/hour min wage, but at $10-12/hour, you're only making $20-24K.  That's assuming you can get 40/hour.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

billski said:


> how far above minimum wage you were averaging?   I worry about the "working poor" who I know, they work for more than $8/hour min wage, but at $10-12/hour, you're only making $20-24K.  That's assuming you can get 40/hour.



An average waiter at a decent restaurant in Boston is going to make 50K a year working 40 hours a week.  The sacrifice is no benefits.

Union banquet waitstaff in Boston make anywhere from $20-$30 an hour based upon tenure.


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## billski (Jun 27, 2011)

Isn't that near the high end of the earning potential for 70% of all wait jobs?  I'm not counting Westchester County or Beverly Hills..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2011)

It's hard to give you an average Bill.  I said Boston because you live down that way. 

Outside of bartending once every 4 months in Portland, ME; I've been out of the occupation for ten years in terms of having gratuity be the primary portion of my wages.  So, I'm not sure I can answer your question accurately.  I'd say back in college and ski bum years when I was bartending full time, I was averaging $15/hour.  That factoring in off seasons.


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## Nick (Jun 29, 2011)

It's always tricky in Europe because I am so used to leaving 20% here. I visit my family in Germany and it's customary to just give a couple euros (basically keep the change), since a tip is already included in the bill almost all the time. 

but even throughout Europe tipping is different. Last summer I went to Italy and in Italy you do have to leave about 10%. 

Bizarre. 

When I bartended in college I used to make about $200 on a Saturday night. That was from 5PM - 2AM, so 9 hours ~ $23 an hour. But that was on Fridays and / or Saturdays only. Weekday shifts would be less, maybe $100 - $150.


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