# Bin Ladin dead!



## wa-loaf (May 1, 2011)

We've got his body.


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## andyzee (May 1, 2011)

Please, politics not allowed. Remember what happened to GSS!


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## deadheadskier (May 1, 2011)

I want to see a long form death certificate


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## andrec10 (May 1, 2011)

This is not Politics!...Just Great News!!!


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## legalskier (May 1, 2011)

Congrats to our Special Forces- great work!  Reports are they got him in a mansion outside the capital of Pakistan. Interesting....


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## TheBEast (May 1, 2011)

Hell yeah!!!


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2011)

How is this politics? 

Great news and great post!


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## ScottySkis (May 2, 2011)

About time I'm so happy our military got him,this is great news not politics


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Lets all rejoice in this day..


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## Glenn (May 2, 2011)

Great news! Thank you troops!  :flag:  :flag:  :flag:


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## Nick (May 2, 2011)

Wow... I thought this was a joke at first. I was at the point of accepting that he would probably just die of old age somewhere. A+ news.


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## campgottagopee (May 2, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Great news! Thank you troops!  :flag:  :flag:  :flag:



this^^^^


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## thetrailboss (May 2, 2011)

I am stunned!  Just read the news article in my paper!  :flag:


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Sent an email to my sister in law in Iraq last night...  She was shocked - hadn't heard anything about it..  But suffice to say - they celebrated..


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## RootDKJ (May 2, 2011)

It's about time!  :beer: :flag:


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## SkiDork (May 2, 2011)

I'm glad I won't have to look at his mug much any more.  It makes me cringe when I see it.


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## mlctvt (May 2, 2011)

Excellent outcome. Sounds like a perfectly performed plan with no US casualties. 

I wonder if my nephew was a part of this. He's a SEAL. Last I knew he was in the middle east , either Yemen and/or Pakistan. 
I kind of doubt it though, he's young and I'm sure this team was hand picked guys with the most experience.


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> I wonder if my nephew was a part of this. He's a SEAL. Last I knew he was in the middle east , either Yemen and/or Pakistan.
> I kind of doubt it though, he's young and I'm sure this team was hand picked guys with the most experience.



We'll never know who exactly was involved. Their families become instant targets if that info becomes public.


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## mlctvt (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> We'll never know who exactly was involved. Their families become instant targets if that info becomes public.



Exactly, We never know where he's been exactly or what he's done. Even his wife knows nothing.  Most ops are never in the news. 

I worry about him alot.


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2011)

I'm not normaly a conspiracy theorist, since I believe in never ascribing to malicious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence, but something's fishy. From the location, 800 yards from Pakistan's West Point, to burying the body at sea less than 24 hours later, just odd. My biggest fear, though, is that we only found him because someone has already replaced him and he was irrelevant, except perhaps as a martyr and a rallying point.

Kudos and props to our soldiers in harm's way, to be sure- they're doing a great job.


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'm not normaly a conspiracy theorist, since I believe in never ascribing to malicious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence, but something's fishy. From the location, 800 yards from Pakistan's West Point, to burying the body at sea less than 24 hours later, just odd. My biggest fear, though, is that we only found him because someone has already replaced him and he was irrelevant, except perhaps as a martyr and a rallying point.
> 
> Kudos and props to our soldiers in harm's way, to be sure- they're doing a great job.



I share similar thoughts.  I 100% believe Obama, but I think it was a dumb move politically to dump the body at sea.  He was an international criminal.  His body should've been presented to all members of the UN Security Council along with independent journalists for verification.  That would reduce doubts of the tinfoil hat wearers internationally.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Dumping the body in the sea was a great idea - imho...

It keeps people from having a place to celebrate...
It's a good way to dump such a vilan...
no other country would take that trash...

AND - it's acceptable within Islamic law to bury someone at sea so it doesn't piss of Muslims... And they did it fast which is good because you have to bury a Muslim in 24 hours after death....


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## SkiDork (May 2, 2011)

IMHO the sea burial was the best option for 2 reasons (not my original thoughts, read it in a blog)

1) Trying not to piss off Islam foks by keeping with burial as fast as possible (although al-quada types will just be pissed anyway, nothing you can do there)

2) Not creating a martyr focal point site for al-queda.


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## SkiFanE (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'm not normaly a conspiracy theorist, since I believe in never ascribing to malicious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence, but something's fishy. From the location, 800 yards from Pakistan's West Point, to burying the body at sea less than 24 hours later, just odd. My biggest fear, though, is that we only found him because someone has already replaced him and he was irrelevant, except perhaps as a martyr and a rallying point.
> 
> Kudos and props to our soldiers in harm's way, to be sure- they're doing a great job.



Pakistan played their cards badly.  Wonder what will happen, Pakistan had to have known where he was.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> Pakistan played their cards badly.  Wonder what will happen, Pakistan had to have known where he was.



yeah... they are in big trouble..


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## Puck it (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'm not normaly a conspiracy theorist, since I believe in never ascribing to malicious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence, but something's fishy. From the location, 800 yards from Pakistan's West Point, to burying the body at sea less than 24 hours later, just odd. My biggest fear, though, is that we only found him because someone has already replaced him and he was irrelevant, except perhaps as a martyr and a rallying point.
> 
> Kudos and props to our soldiers in harm's way, to be sure- they're doing a great job.


 
Along with Megatron in the Laurentian Abyss.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

Go to photoblog.msnbc.msn.com The villain is dead!


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## Warp Daddy (May 2, 2011)

Kudos on the surgical precision with which this operation was planned and executed .  The veil of surprise while difficult to achieve was crucial .

Oft times we are critical of the CIA and others who labor in the field of covert operations,  but i believe that the DNA evidence and the photos will substantiate the effort . The Navy Seals are the best covert operators in the world and their strike force is to be commended.

Having had some limited experience  teaching Pakistanis  professionals in the 80's as well as others from The Middle East .  i am certain that respecting the Muslim tradition of burial within 24  hrs will play out reasonably well with reasonable people .  For certain other terrorist leaders have been sent a strong and clear message that whatever it takes they will be brought to swift justice .

That said i admire the administration's patience with planning this operation by standing down from a plan to BOMB the compound in March  in favor of this boots on the ground operation by ELITE highly skilled Seals .

This is a day for JUSTICE having been well served .


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Along with Megatron in the Laurentian Abyss.



Or maybe in the East River...

Agree, dmc- I figured there was a 24 hour limit on it, and agree it certainly eleminates a rallying point, so all good there. Still just seems rushed. Almost like they didn't actually expect to find him, so it was a case of dog catches car.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

The current picture on the net is a total fake...
http://cdn.chillnite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama_dead-body_pic.jpg
Photoshopped from another picture...


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'm not normaly a conspiracy theorist, since I believe in never ascribing to malicious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence, but something's fishy. From the location, 800 yards from Pakistan's West Point, to burying the body at sea less than 24 hours later, just odd. My biggest fear, though, is that we only found him because someone has already replaced him and he was irrelevant, except perhaps as a martyr and a rallying point.
> 
> Kudos and props to our soldiers in harm's way, to be sure- they're doing a great job.


Replaced him? He was rendered useless back in 2001 or whenever we froze all his assets. All he was was a source of money and a figurehead.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

photoblog.msnbc.msn.com has details. Why would a fake picture be circulated? Who put this picture out. Did the government release this? Msnbc doubts it's authenticity.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Replaced him? He was rendered useless back in 2001 or whenever we froze all his assets. All he was was a source of money and a figurehead.



he was still an operational asset...


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

The Navy Seals are NOT the best covert unit in the world. There are others that are not disclosed. I knew some of them when in the Air Force.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> Or maybe in the East River...
> 
> Agree, dmc- I figured there was a 24 hour limit on it, and agree it certainly eleminates a rallying point, so all good there. Still just seems rushed. Almost like they didn't actually expect to find him, so it was a case of dog catches car.



From what I hear - it went fast..  

In - bam bam bam - ransack the place for info and leave..
Take pictures - do DNA test and dump that fukcer in the ocean...


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## EOS (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> The current picture on the net is a total fake...
> http://cdn.chillnite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama_dead-body_pic.jpg
> Photoshopped from another picture...



That's absolutely photoshopped!


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Dumping the body in the sea was a great idea - imho...
> 
> It keeps people from having a place to celebrate...
> It's a good way to dump such a vilan...
> ...


I say they should've buried him somewhere public and set up surveillance.

Or maybe just bomb the place frequently.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

EOS said:


> That's absolutely photoshopped!



A really bad job too - imho


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> From what I hear - it went fast..
> 
> In - bam bam bam - ransack the place for info and leave..
> Take pictures - do DNA test and dump that fukcer in the ocean...


Yeah, guessing they knew where he was for a little while and had the whole thing planned out.

They even streamlined the process of weighing down the body by filling it with lead ahead of time.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I say they should've buried him somewhere public and set up surveillance.
> 
> Or maybe just bomb the place frequently.



Why would we waste our $ on something like that...  I don't think public memorials are suited for mass murderers ..


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Yeah, guessing they knew where he was for a little while and had the whole thing planned out.
> 
> They even streamlined the process of weighing down the body by filling it with lead ahead of time.



I'd love to buy the Navy Seal who put a bullet through his eye a beer..


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Why would we waste our $ on something like that... I don't think public memorials are suited for mass murderers ..


Mostly joking, along the lines of just assume anyone that respectfully visits the grave is a terrorist and take them out.


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2011)

wonder if the US will pay out the $25M bounty that was on him


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> wonder if the US will pay out the $25M bounty that was on him


Guessing not, given that giving 20 SEALs $1mil a piece would pretty much destroy their anonymity. Also guessing the fine print was "unless it's our military that does it."

Maybe that $25 mil was used to bribe someone in Pakistan's intelligence agency instead. The "cooperative intelligence environment" in Pakistan I'm guessing entails us spying on ISI.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Military folks can't take rewards.


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## campgottagopee (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> I'd love to buy the Navy Seal who put a bullet through his eye a beer..



I got the second round, with a shot too.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

Go to corbettreport.com. "Bin Laden pronounced dead for the ninth time."(?) WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Military personnel can't take rewards, but the person or persons that tipped them off can.


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Guessing not, given that giving 20 SEALs $1mil a piece would pretty much destroy their anonymity. Also guessing the fine print was "unless it's our military that does it."
> 
> Maybe that $25 mil was used to bribe someone in Pakistan's intelligence agency instead. The "cooperative intelligence environment" in Pakistan I'm guessing entails us spying on ISI.



Whoever the source is that hooked them up with the info on his trusted courier is probably retiring somewhere nice.

Really there should be more of this kind of stuff. Intelligence, planning, action. In and out. Less bombing more precision please.


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Really there should be more of this kind of stuff. Intelligence, planning, action. In and out. Less bombing more precision please.



Are you looking at Gaddafi?

I agree with you.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

"If it takes ten years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord". Jerry Falwell Oct. 29, '04 speaking about terrorists. "Kill them all, let God sort it out".


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Really there should be more of this kind of stuff. Intelligence, planning, action. In and out. Less bombing more precision please.



There's probably a lot more of that going on then we need to know...


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

Hitler declared dead, May 1, 1945. May 1 2011, Osama Bin Laden declared dead.


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## hammer (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Military folks can't take rewards.


They get hostile fire and imminent danger pay...:roll:

As crazy as this sounds, my guess is that the military folks were extremely pumped to be a part of such a historic mission.  No additional pay or reward needed.

Big congrats and thanks to all involved.  Sure hope that this makes a dent in the war on terror.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

"There's probably a lot more of that going on then (sic) we need to know." Exactly! There's a lot going on that we DON'T want to know. I know WAY too much.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

hammer said:


> They get hostile fire and imminent danger pay...:roll:
> 
> As crazy as this sounds, my guess is that the military folks were extremely pumped to be a part of such a historic mission.  No additional pay or reward needed.



Hell yeah!!! Wouldn't you!?!??!

If they received rewards like that they would be considered mercenaries..


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## campgottagopee (May 2, 2011)

Army recruiter was in line with me today at Subway....I shook his hand and thanked him for his help in shooting the bastard.


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## Glenn (May 2, 2011)

EOS said:


> That's absolutely photoshopped!



That may be giving too much credit. I'm thinking "MS Paint" on that pic. :lol:


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Glenn said:


> That may be giving too much credit. I'm thinking "MS Paint" on that pic. :lol:



I can't believe anyone would think that was real...


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## WakeboardMom (May 2, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> Excellent outcome. Sounds like a perfectly performed plan with no US casualties.
> 
> I wonder if my nephew was a part of this. He's a SEAL. Last I knew he was in the middle east , either Yemen and/or Pakistan.
> I kind of doubt it though, he's young and I'm sure this team was hand picked guys with the most experience.



I wondered the same thing.  A young man that played h.s. football with my son (his dad-in-law is a fellow Rotarian) just deployed for Afghanistan a few weeks ago.  He's only 25; I know he hasn't been a SEAL for more than a year or two.

Great job on the part of those guys!


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2011)

ed-drum said:


> Hitler declared dead, May 1, 1945. May 1 2011, Osama Bin Laden declared dead.



Interesting coincidence...


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## mondeo (May 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> Interesting coincidence...


Technically, Bin Laden is May 2nd. It was around 1AM in Pakistan.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Technically, Bin Laden is May 2nd. It was around 1AM in Pakistan.



Good catch...


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Good catch...



Yeah, but it was on the front page of Stars and Stripes on May 2...


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## gmcunni (May 2, 2011)

i don't know, seems too convenient that he was killed in a firefight and dropped off a boat before anyone knew what had happened.

you'd think they'd have tried very hard to take him alive to obtain intel from him. i won't be surprised in 25 years to learn he was stashed away somewhere for years while they "extracted" info from him.


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## SkiDork (May 2, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> you'd think they'd have tried very hard to take him alive to obtain intel from him.



He had made it know he would not be taken alive.  I imagine he made it impossible for the Seals to do that


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## Dr Skimeister (May 2, 2011)

"And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand." -George Bernard Shaw


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## legalskier (May 2, 2011)

_The United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG), commonly known as DEVGRU and informally by its former name *SEAL Team Six* (ST6) is one of the United States' two secretive Tier One counter-terrorism and Special Mission Units (SMUs); the other such group is 1st SFOD-D (Delta Force).... The origins of ST6 can be traced to the aftermath of Operation Eagle Claw, the failed 1980 attempt to rescue American hostages at the U.S. Embassy in Iran. During the Iran Hostage Crisis in 1979, Richard Marcinko was one of two Navy representatives for a Joint Chiefs of Staff task force known as the TAT (Terrorist Action Team). The purpose of the TAT was to develop a plan to free the American hostages held in Iran, which culminated in Operation Eagle Claw. In the wake of the operation's disaster at Desert One, *the U.S. Navy saw the need for a full-time dedicated Counter-Terrorist Team* and tasked Marcinko with its design and development. ***_
Full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Special_Warfare_Development_Group


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## legalskier (May 2, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> "And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand." -George Bernard Shaw



As long as al Qaeda intends to kill Americans, we can exercise our right of self-defense.


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## Puck it (May 2, 2011)




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## ctenidae (May 2, 2011)

legalskier said:


> As long as al Qaeda intends to kill Americans, we can exercise our right of self-defense.



Doesn't mean Shaw's not right.


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

Gee, nobody ever shook my hand for the horrors that I witnessed while serving my country. How does a Army Recruiter REMF fit in to all of this? "All great truths start out as blasphemies." George Bernard Shaw


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## jack97 (May 2, 2011)

Gusty call by the prez..... wasn't a given Bin Ladin was in the mansion and whether sailors in the SEAL team would come through unharm. Imagine what would have happen if either of those two came to be?

Got to give props to Obama for making the call on the Somalia pirates and then this. k, this just became poltical :?


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

The Stars and Stripes European edition has the story Gaddhafi's son killed in air strikes, NOT OBL killed. The Stars and Stripes LIED as to what happened when I was there. Most of us went to schools that taught us that Henry Ford invented the automobile. He didn't.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

jack97 said:


> Gusty call by the prez..... wasn't a given Bin Ladin was in the mansion and whether sailors in the SEAL team would come through unharm. Imagine what would have happen if either of those two came to be?



It sounds like this was a very well planned incursion..


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## campgottagopee (May 2, 2011)

ed-drum said:


> Gee, nobody ever shook my hand for the horrors that I witnessed while serving my country. How does a Army Recruiter REMF fit in to all of this? "All great truths start out as blasphemies." George Bernard Shaw



That's a shame. 

I'd say ANYONE in any branch of the military had alot to do with it.


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

They got some video ...


:beer:


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

ed-drum said:


> Hitler declared dead, May 1, 1945. May 1 2011, Osama Bin Laden declared dead.





ctenidae said:


> Interesting coincidence...



It was also my Birthday so I take responsibility. :dunce:


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## ed-drum (May 2, 2011)

GREAT video! I don't understand if Camps' comment was sardonic or what. They warned us in training that we might not come home alive. I was assigned to a field hospital. Anyone who thinks that someone assigned to a 2nd or 3rd echelon unit is safe is very naive. They dropped rockets on people I know who were in the Air Transportable hospital. (ATH)


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## drjeff (May 2, 2011)

Thank god that Guantanamo has remained open and that a select few of our servicemen/under cover CIA operatives have been able to use advanced interogation techniques to help acquire the information that allowed the operation to be a success to get Bin Laden!


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## roark (May 2, 2011)

‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Thank god that Guantanamo has remained open and that a select few of our servicemen/under cover CIA operatives have been able to use advanced interogation techniques to help acquire the information that allowed the operation to be a success to get Bin Laden!



This had nothing to do with how he was found and killed. And torture does not get you useful information.


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> This had nothing to do with how he was found and killed. And torture does not get you useful information.



I think I heard that some of the intel came out of Guantanamo.. Not sure if it was by torture..


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> I think I heard that some of the intel came out of Guantanamo.. Not sure if it was by torture..



I read that a Pakistani source told them who OBL's courier was. They found that guy and followed him around until he led them to OBL.


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## gmcunni (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I read that a Pakistani source told them who OBL's courier was. They found that guy and followed him around until he led them to OBL.



ticker on CNN says information leading to the ID of the courier came from detainees


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## drjeff (May 2, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> ticker on CNN says information leading to the ID of the courier came from detainees



Yup, the apparent story is that the link to the courier was found out from khaleid sheik mohammed enhanced interrogation done at guantanamo. The same policies that the Pres Obama authorized attorney general holder to investigate and possibly prosecute for(the interogaters that is) - good thing that never happened!


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Yup, the apparent story is that the link to the courier was found out from khaleid sheik mohammed enhanced interrogation done at guantanamo. The same policies that the Pres Obama authorized attorney general holder to investigate and possibly prosecute for(the interogaters that is) - good thing that never happened!



Who knows - maybe it could've been done without the use of "enhance interrogation"?


Anyrate...

The point of this day to me is...
We live in an awesome country that can do just about anything.  We did what we had to do to find a nasty mo-fo who murdered thousands of Americans.  We chased him around the middle east and pressed an unfriendly nuclear power Islamic country to work with us to give his ass up.

We have had peaceful democratic power transitions longer then any other country..  We had an initiative started by one president and finished by another..  It didn't matter what their politics were or how they grew up.   It got done..  I like many wish it could've happened faster - but it didn't.  

AMERICA F**K YEAH!!!!


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## riverc0il (May 2, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> "And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand." -George Bernard Shaw





roark said:


> ‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr





ctenidae said:


> Doesn't mean Shaw's not right.


All of this is very applicable. Certainly Bin Laden's followers will see him as a martyr and one of his second in command will take up the torch and attempt worse horrors in his name. 

But on the flip side, just because such acts don't solve the problem doesn't mean that should not be pursued. Had no one opposed Hitler, we might not be able to publicly state such great and noble quotes.

I think the greatest thing going on right now to fight terrorism is democracy spreading in the Middle East. Which will hopefully lead to economic prosperity to follow. I think the people inclined to terrorism would be less likely to choose that route if things were better economically in their countries. Until that happens, it's still on and this is just retribution rather than solving a problem.

At first I was thinking "where are the pics, conspiracy?" But I doubt the President would go public so quickly if this was not 100% confirmed. Can you imagine the public outcry if a kill was reported but he was really taken prisoner and this was later found out?


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> ticker on CNN says information leading to the ID of the courier came from detainees



Yeah, that's correct my bad. This is a good article on the whole thing: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54093.html

I was an interrogator in the Army. I know torture gets you junk, is there some truth there? Sure, but you torture someone and they will tell you anything to get you to stop. Glad they got the info they needed for it. How and what detainee it came from is still unknown. Likely pieced together from various detainees. You need multiple sources to be talking about the same thing and then you need to try and verify that info externally. Even if the Kahlid dude had given up the name, the intelligence community wouldn't have run with it unless it had been confirmed through other means.


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..



The Special forces guys used to show me pics they took of stuff down in Central America. Nasty ...


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## gmcunni (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Even if the Kahlid dude had given up the name, the intelligence community wouldn't have run with it unless it had been confirmed through other means.



i think i read (cnn ticker again) that the detainee info was 4 years ago and they'd be tailing the courier for 2 years. something like that. 

(i didn't read the link you posted yet, perhaps it says the same thing)


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## dmc (May 2, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> The Special forces guys used to show me pics they took of stuff down in Central America. Nasty ...



yeah... I've been through a friend of mines pictures he took during the Vietnam conflict..  
Seriously disturbing...


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..



I'm not sure keeping the picture and video evidence secret because of graphic nature is a strong argument.  

I'd imagine what's being debated is whether or not releasing the pictures will result in greater retaliation than the announcement of Bin Laden's execution may already influence. 

It's not like there aren't gruesome pictures all over the net of the human casualties in Libya.


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## mlctvt (May 2, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Thank god that Guantanamo has remained open and that a select few of our servicemen/under cover CIA operatives have been able to use advanced interogation techniques to help acquire the information that allowed the operation to be a success to get Bin Laden!



According to the Associated Press the intel did not come from Guantanamo.  

"In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.

One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaida's operational leader he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given al-Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed."


----------



## mlctvt (May 2, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> According to the Associated Press the intel did not come from Guantanamo.
> 
> "In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.
> 
> One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaida's operational leader he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given al-Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed."



Edit- Sorry it seems it did come from Gauntanamo. Abu Faraj al-Libi is incarcerated there.


----------



## bigbog (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..



Most rifles used in the last several+ decades are automatics = _NEVER_ pretty.  The only non-nasty wounds are wounds on television.


----------



## legalskier (May 2, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> But on the flip side, just because such acts don't solve the problem doesn't mean that should not be pursued. Had no one opposed Hitler, we might not be able to publicly state such great and noble quotes.



+1

Here's a good analysis of whether the bin Laden mission was justified under U.S. and international law:
_*Can the U.S. Legally Defend Its Attack On Bin Laden?*
The successful military operation against Osama bin Laden raises all sorts of questions about the legal authority the U.S. government relied on to carry out the deadly attack. Was it an assassination under U.S. or international law? Did it require approval of the highest levels of the Justice Department or a new executive order by the president? Was Pakistan's sovereignty disrespected? ***_
Listen to the answer here: http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135930248/did-the-u-s-have-the-authority-to-carry-out-attack

George Bernard Shaw's gods may disagree, but if it's ok under U.S. and international law who am I to say otherwise.


----------



## bigbog (May 2, 2011)

legalskier said:


> +1
> 
> Here's a good analysis of whether the bin Laden mission was justified under U.S. and international law:
> _*Can the U.S. Legally Defend Its Attack On Bin Laden?*
> ...



Sounds like just so much ultra-Conservative crap.....which has nothing to do with Fiscal Conservatism.
The best way to attain success with stubborn adversaries is to make it look like you're being lenient....  What was being called torture by the ACLU wasn't that vile imho.......Obama has learned a little about being a President...it takes more than being politically correct in warfare.  But agree with wa-loaf, there _is_ a point where getting info becomes questionable.  Would sure like to see just as much $$$ that was given to Pakistan...now given to the _under-$50k_ crowd.
How anyone can be so gullable in trying to bribe corrupt governments like Pakistan's for accurate information.....is like listening to _Curveball? _or _was it Cueball?  _Media has turned these last 48hrs into a friggin circus...


----------



## legalskier (May 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..



_*Gruesome photo is hoax, but White House debates release of real ones*
The White House is debating whether or not it will release photos of Osama Bin Laden's corpse. Officials say they have pictures of the Al Qaeda terror leader's dead body, ABC News reported Monday, and "there's no doubt it's him." However, because they are disturbing images, the Obama administration is uncertain if it would be okay to make them public.
"It is really, really graphic," an official told NBC News.
Officials said Monday that DNA evidence shows the body is in fact Bin Laden's, but suggest releasing a photo of his body may be necessary to quiet critics.
An image of a bloody Bin Laden was shown on Arab TV late Sunday, as well as the front page of the Daily Mail. However, that image has since been shown to be a hoax. ***_

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...house_debates_release_of_r.html#ixzz1LFgej8n6


----------



## legalskier (May 2, 2011)

bigbog said:


> Sounds like just so much ultra-Conservative crap......



That's the first time I've ever heard NPR be described as ultra-conservative!


----------



## Johnskiismore (May 2, 2011)

Fantastic news!


----------



## abc (May 3, 2011)

roark said:


> ‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr


The "enemy" in this case will kill you if you don't kill him.

Killing OBL isn't so much about hate but to stop the killing he's sure to continue. So yes, if his death means the end of certain killing, it's worth rejoicing. Well, worth rejoicing for those of us who may not get killed by another of his scheme!

King maybe a great man in many ways. But he himself was killed by violent. So I have a hard time taking in his non-violent preaching. If it didn't work for him, it probably wouldn't work for the rest of us either.


----------



## riverc0il (May 3, 2011)

abc said:


> King maybe a great man in many ways. But he himself was killed by violent. So I have a hard time taking in his non-violent preaching. If it didn't work for him, it probably wouldn't work for the rest of us either.


I suspect King wouldn't retract his message of peaceful resistance and non-violence had he known he would be shot dead.....

Back on topic, I think the release of the photos will only serve to rile other terrorists. It will give them an image to fixate their outrage on. Logically, there is 100% no way Obama would have came forth saying that Bin Laden is dead unless he was 100% certain. No way. I can't even imagine the fall out Obama would face and how upset the people of this country would be if it was faked and Bin Laden later revealed he was not dead. There are no need for pictures except to quell conspiracy theorists that might posit the US actually has him in custody. But conspiracy theorist will spin such theories with or without pictures (they were doctored!!!). There really is no reason to release pictures at this time and the administration has been smart, IMO, not to do so.


----------



## Glenn (May 3, 2011)

Ooops!



> The problem is that the first sentence — “I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy” — doesn’t appear to come from King himself.



http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/201...rtin-luther-king-jr-and-the-fake-viral-quote/


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## dmc (May 3, 2011)

Whats killing me is the Anti Islam talk going on again.. 

We should be rejoicing with our Muslim friends that this guys is dead - not recycling old racist jokes..


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## Dr Skimeister (May 3, 2011)

In an effort to minimize the chances that my ideas get misconstrued, let me start off by saying that I feel Usama was the face of evil. He used his persuasive powers to incite violent actions in what appears to be a minority of followers of Islam. His salesmanship abilities would be applauded had he chosen to apply them to vacuum cleaners, automobiles or veterinary services. 

I'm not at all disputing that ending the reign of terror that he advocated is necessary. 

I'm bothered though by the celebratory mood that his death has brought forth. The greatest likelihood is that killing him was the only option as far as ending his presence as the leader of his group of terrorists. It's the party atmosphere that his death seems to have brought on that I don't get. This makes as little sense to me as did video shown after the 9/11 attacks that showed people in the Middle East dancing in the streets. 

Death sucks when it comes to anyone before they've had a chance to live their full lives.


----------



## SkiDork (May 3, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> In an effort to minimize the chances that my ideas get misconstrued, let me start off by saying that I feel Usama was the face of evil. He used his persuasive powers to incite violent actions in what appears to be a minority of followers of Islam. His salesmanship abilities would be applauded had he chosen to apply them to vacuum cleaners, automobiles or veterinary services.
> 
> I'm not at all disputing that ending the reign of terror that he advocated is necessary.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree with you.  The wild celebrations in Times Square after WWII, were they a result of VE day?  VJ day?  I can't remember.  They were celebrating the "end of the war".  Which was a result of a peace treaty signing?  Can't exactly remember.

Here, there is no "end of war", there will be no treaty signing.  So I guess in a way, this wa like VE day.


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## drjeff (May 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> Current thing rumbling on the NET is the pictures are REALLY graphic.. Like brain splattered and hanging out graphic..





bigbog said:


> Most rifles used in the last several+ decades are automatics = _NEVER_ pretty.  The only non-nasty wounds are wounds on television.



Somehow I'm guessing that the Bin Laden pictures will still be mild compared to what some of the victims families on 9-11 had to endure (for those families whose loved one's remains were even able to be found) during the identification process.

To think that our phenomenal military could go in, have the adversity of a helicopter going down in the process, get Bin laden and get out of there with no casualties on our part is an amazing thing to think about! :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag:


----------



## dmc (May 3, 2011)

drjeff said:


> To think that our phenomenal military could go in, have the adversity of a helicopter going down in the process, get Bin laden and get out of there with no casualties on our part is an amazing thing to think about! :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp

Good article on our incursion..  In and out before Pakistan could interfere...


----------



## dmc (May 3, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> In an effort to minimize the chances that my ideas get misconstrued, let me start off by saying that I feel Usama was the face of evil. He used his persuasive powers to incite violent actions in what appears to be a minority of followers of Islam. His salesmanship abilities would be applauded had he chosen to apply them to vacuum cleaners, automobiles or veterinary services.
> 
> I'm not at all disputing that ending the reign of terror that he advocated is necessary.
> 
> ...



Even Rudi Guilliani feels this way..  

I feel torn by this as well...


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 3, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> In an effort to minimize the chances that my ideas get misconstrued, let me start off by saying that I feel Usama was the face of evil. He used his persuasive powers to incite violent actions in what appears to be a minority of followers of Islam. His salesmanship abilities would be applauded had he chosen to apply them to vacuum cleaners, automobiles or veterinary services.
> 
> I'm not at all disputing that ending the reign of terror that he advocated is necessary.
> 
> ...



Conceptually i agree with the good doctor , operationally i'm "Relatively" certain the circumstances or situational environment merited the outcome. 

That said i absolutely ABHOR, the wild ass  sport chanting and behavior that demonstrators in Times SQ and other places displayed . THIS was NOT a friggin hockey game or Super Bowl . We ARE better than that and need to show the world that we are .


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## drjeff (May 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> Even Rudi Guilliani feels this way..
> 
> I feel torn by this as well...



Me too.  Totally torn about this. Is it a signficant moment in this countries history.  Yes.  Is it one that should be marked with the types of celebration that we saw?  Not so sure about that


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## hammer (May 3, 2011)

Warp Daddy said:


> Conceptually i agree with the good doctor , operationally i'm "Relatively" certain the circumstances or situational environment merited the outcome.
> 
> That said i absolutely ABHOR, the wild ass  sport chanting and behavior that demonstrators in Times SQ and other places displayed . THIS was NOT a friggin hockey game or Super Bowl . We ARE better than that and need to show the world that we are .


Agree entirely...and well said.


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## dmc (May 3, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Me too.  Totally torn about this. Is it a signficant moment in this countries history.  Yes.  Is it one that should be marked with the types of celebration that we saw?  Not so sure about that



I know that in the days after 911 - I would've said string him up and let everyone spit on him...
What a struggle with is many of my friends either were in the towers or lost people in the towers...  People I know that lost someone seem to be chill and non-celebratory... People I know that were responders are kicking their heals up in happiness...

But - again - when I saw the burning WTC that day - I knew everyone would need to heel in different ways - some good ome bad..  And I resided myself to be tolerant of this..

Basically - I'll only call out hatred of innocent Muslims..  Other then that.. have at it..


----------



## Puck it (May 3, 2011)

Supposedly, there are reports of a neighbor tweeting as all of this was playing out.  I have not found any articles on it yet though.  I heard it on the radio.


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## wa-loaf (May 3, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Supposedly, there are reports of a neighbor tweeting as all of this was playing out.  I have not found any articles on it yet though.  I heard it on the radio.



http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/05/02/osama.twitter.reports/index.html?hpt=C2


----------



## Puck it (May 3, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/05/02/osama.twitter.reports/index.html?hpt=C2


 Thanks.


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## wa-loaf (May 3, 2011)

this is cool, who needs spies and interrogations when we have geographers: http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/05/geographers-had-calculated-81.html


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## dmc (May 3, 2011)

Speaking of geography...
When I was skiing in Gulmarg Kashmir - I was about 200 miles from OBL...


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## Dr Skimeister (May 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> Speaking of geography...
> When I was skiing in Gulmarg Kashmir - I was about 200 miles from OBL...



you can probably expect the CIA to be at your door by 3:30 this afternoon


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## dmc (May 3, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> you can probably expect the CIA to be at your door by 3:30 this afternoon



haha...  When my brother was being checked out to work at the Pentagon as a Doc - we had a strange car parked outside for a coupe of days.  I made it through that check.. But that was a while ago - I have lots of new shenanigans on my resume' now...


----------



## ed-drum (May 3, 2011)

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. When I joined the AF, My father said there were suits creeping around questioning the whole neighborhood. That's what happens when they give someone a high security clearance. Nothing to worry about.


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## riverc0il (May 3, 2011)

Warp Daddy said:


> We ARE better than that


No. We are not. As a species, we very much are not better than that. It is just the way we function as a social animal. Sometimes we work together to achieve great ends. But our social instinct also brings about great failures in judgment. We need to recognize this to work together to self correct our tendencies as much as possible. But as a people, as a society, it is just part of what makes us human, disgusting as it may be.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 3, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> No. We are not. As a species, we very much are not better than that. It is just the way we function as a social animal. Sometimes we work together to achieve great ends. But our social instinct also brings about great failures in judgment. We need to recognize this to work together to self correct our tendencies as much as possible. But as a people, as a society, it is just part of what makes us human, disgusting as it may be.






       I choose to treat people as they COULD be , rather than as they ARE.


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## riverc0il (May 3, 2011)

Warp Daddy said:


> I choose to treat people as they COULD be , rather than as they ARE.


I really should have clarified my statement. Wasn't meant to suggest any individual in this world is not better than that. Certainly I have such an opinion of myself.  But rather on average as a group when taken on the whole.... Sociology is ripe with studies showing how the average group behaves badly when given the appropriate chance to do so even when made up of "good" people. And then there are always individuals that would never join a group doing negative stuff and will always stand out from the crowd, but those are outliers on the curve.

S'all good, Warp! If only everyone in the world had your approach, t'would be a better place to live!


----------



## abc (May 3, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I suspect King wouldn't retract his message of peaceful resistance and non-violence had he known he would be shot dead.....


Oh I'm pretty sure King is strong in his conviction. I too, doubt he would retract it.

It's just ME who would not share his conviction. Because it doesn't seem to work as it stands. We HAVE TO kill our enemies in order to stop being killed. It's splitting hairs to say we won't rejoice at the result of our enemy's death. 

After all, it's a job well done. The job of survival, that is.


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## DrSkimeister (May 3, 2011)

abc said:


> Oh I'm pretty sure King is strong in his conviction. I too, doubt he would retract it.
> 
> It's just ME who would not share his conviction. Because it doesn't seem to work as it stands. We HAVE TO kill our enemies in order to stop being killed. It's splitting hairs to say we won't rejoice at the result of our enemy's death.
> 
> After all, it's a job well done. The job of survival, that is.



People with your mindset are what's wrong with this world.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 3, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I really should have clarified my statement. Wasn't meant to suggest any individual in this world is not better than that. Certainly I have such an opinion of myself.  But rather on average as a group when taken on the whole.... Sociology is ripe with studies showing how the average group behaves badly when given the appropriate chance to do so even when made up of "good" people. And then there are always individuals that would never join a group doing negative stuff and will always stand out from the crowd, but those are outliers on the curve.
> 
> S'all good, Warp! If only everyone in the world had your approach, t'would be a better place to live!



Always great to dialogue with you Steve . As an ole Professor i am into  employing the Pygmalyion Effect with folks - to  try and "stretch them "


----------



## mondeo (May 3, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> No. We are not. As a species, we very much are not better than that. It is just the way we function as a social animal. Sometimes we work together to achieve great ends. But our social instinct also brings about great failures in judgment. We need to recognize this to work together to self correct our tendencies as much as possible. But as a people, as a society, it is just part of what makes us human, disgusting as it may be.



+1
The desire for revenge is part of human nature. Early in human development it served a purpose, dissuading negative actions through creating consequences. With the advent of the rule of law and encoding of justice and rehabilitation, it loses usefulness, and has no place in modern society. But we're all guilty of it to some extent.

Overall, it's probably a better world without him. That I can find some joy in. But pleasure just because someone died, I hope I never come to that. If not, then the decision to take a life becomes an emotional one, which it should never be.


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## roark (May 3, 2011)

Perhaps the best opinion piece I've read on this topic:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/demo...ng_bin_laden?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/letscallitaday


----------



## wa-loaf (May 3, 2011)




----------



## Nick (May 4, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


>



Hahahaha I love that.....


----------



## Dr Skimeister (May 5, 2011)

"We don't need to spike the football."
PRESIDENT OBAMA, on his decision to not release photographs of Osama bin Laden's corpse.


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## gmcunni (May 5, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> "We don't need to spike the football."
> PRESIDENT OBAMA, on his decision to not release photographs of Osama bin Laden's corpse.



pics and video to hit the internet within ... i'll say 7 days.


----------



## wa-loaf (May 5, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> "We don't need to spike the football."
> PRESIDENT OBAMA, on his decision to not release photographs of Osama bin Laden's corpse.



They need more time to fake the photo's. :razz:

I'm kidding, but it's a no win situation. Don't release them and people will suspect it's fake, release them and they'll just say the photo's are fake. I guess they figured screw the conspiracy theorist who won't be happy with whatever we do and just try not to incite more violence in the middle east. Personally I'd like to see them, but I'm not making the decisions.


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## dmc (May 5, 2011)

You have to ask yourself - how many more will die if the photos are shown...

i bet a shtiload...


----------



## bvibert (May 5, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> but it's a no win situation. Don't release them and people will suspect it's fake, release them and they'll just say the photo's are fake. I guess they figured screw the conspiracy theorist who won't be happy with whatever we do and just try not to incite more violence in the middle east.



That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  People who don't believe he's dead still aren't going to believe it just because they see a few pictures.


----------



## gmcunni (May 5, 2011)

i just don't want to see the pics, period. i once saw a picture of a guy (well, the remains of a guy) who 'd jumped off a roof.  i have no need to see shit like that ever again.

somebody said it before, it only looks "cool" in the movies.


----------



## RootDKJ (May 5, 2011)

bvibert said:


> That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  People who don't believe he's dead still aren't going to believe it just because they see a few pictures.


+1


----------



## drjeff (May 5, 2011)

dmc said:


> You have to ask yourself - how many more will die if the photos are shown...
> 
> i bet a shtiload...



Not so sure about that.  Lets be honest, the vast majority of muslim's worldwide are likely happy that Bin Laden has been killed with what he did to greatly warp the view of islam to many.  The extremists, well they pretty much already hated this country before he was killed, and I doubt that their views changed too much, and if they were going to be outraged by this, well chances are that just the news reports of him being killed did that already, so the photos likely wouldn't do any more aggrevating IMHO

What gets me now, is why is it that the very officials that have seen the photos are the only ones telling us that we don't need to see them?? 

Release the pics.  If people CHOOSE to view them, then so be it.  If people CHOOSE not to view them, then so be it.  Let people decide for themselves.  The era of secrecy about things often ends up doing far more harm, in the form of creating a state of distrust amongst the masses then reassuring the people that the government works for us, not us just doing what the government tell us


----------



## wa-loaf (May 5, 2011)

Jon Stewart pretty much nails it:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-4-2011/face-off


----------



## abc (May 5, 2011)

DrSkimeister said:


> People with your mindset are what's wrong with this world.


You're naive. 

You think the west got to be where it is by spreading love to our enemy (and NOT killing them) for centuries?


----------



## dmc (May 5, 2011)

abc said:


> You're naive.
> 
> You think the west got to be where it is by spreading love to our enemy (and NOT killing them) for centuries?



Why does it have to be that way?


----------



## drjeff (May 5, 2011)

dmc said:


> Why does it have to be that way?



Because while we may be a "civilized" country, there's still a huge portion of the worldwide population that is living in a way more like the middle ages, if not the stone age, and to ask/expect/hope that they'll suddenly be able to "elevate" their ways to modern times, and then function that way longterm, is while a noble idea, not very realistic.

We didn't become a "civilized" country overnight ourselves, but are expecting others to do so


----------



## dmc (May 5, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Because while we may be a "civilized" country, there's still a huge portion of the worldwide population that is living in a way more like the middle ages, if not the stone age, and to ask/expect/hope that they'll suddenly be able to "elevate" their ways to modern times, and then function that way longterm, is while a noble idea, not very realistic.
> 
> We didn't become a "civilized" country overnight ourselves, but are expecting others to do so



I don't think anything will be sudden..  nobodies going to flip a switch..
But I do sense that the "stoneage" is ending in the middle east.

And we can lead by showing that we are above such things...


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2011)

Couldn't they release a photo with the wound blacked out?  I'm sure the lower half of his head will look plenty dead enough for all but the big time conspiracy theorists.

I'm just curious as to why showing Bin Laden dead will enrage the extremists that much more than telling them that he's dead.


----------



## drjeff (May 5, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Couldn't they release a photo with the wound blacked out?  I'm sure the lower half of his head will look plenty dead enough for all but the big time conspiracy theorists.
> 
> I'm just curious as to why showing Bin Laden dead will enrage the extremists that much more than telling them that he's dead.



Because more and more we're trying to be so politically correct and culturally sensitive that we've forgotten that sometimes progress requires things that aren't politically correct or culturally sensitive.  It is a noble idea,  but the harsh reality is that not everyone is capable of being so noble and those people tend to only respond to much less civilzed ways


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## gmcunni (May 5, 2011)

what would be the benefit of releasing the photos? convincing some portion of the population who thinks the action taken/announcement/news coverage has all been a hoax that it all really did happened?

i disagree with Obama in that i think we've already spiked the football. releasing the photos would be more like doing an excessive end zone celebration?


----------



## campgottagopee (May 5, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> what would be the benefit of releasing the photos? convincing some portion of the population who thinks the action taken/announcement/news coverage has all been a hoax that it all really did happened?
> 
> i disagree with Obama in that i think we've already spiked the football. releasing the photos would be more like doing an excessive end zone celebration?



I agree, not sure what good would come out of releasing the photos.

If there ever was somebody I wouldn't mind seeing with their head blown off it would be that SOB.


----------



## gmcunni (May 5, 2011)

i really don't like the "instant news" era we live in, specifically the almost guaranteed retraction or correction to the most scathing headline of the previous day (or hour).  

in the car yesterday with the family driving to a wake for my wife's uncle (so death is already in everyone's thoughts) news of the OBL story comes back on the radio.  my 12 YO daughter makes a comment about OBL using his wife as a human shield. she even said "well, what did she expect marrying a terrorist".  but the latest "news" is it wasn't his wife and she wasn't used as a human shield. my daughter (though i explained that to her) won't remember the most recent news (i hesitate to call it truth) because it isn't as horrible.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> what would be the benefit of releasing the photos? convincing some portion of the population who thinks the action taken/announcement/news coverage has all been a hoax that it all really did happened?
> 
> i disagree with Obama in that i think we've already spiked the football. releasing the photos would be more like doing an excessive end zone celebration?



My comments below are not my opinion, more what I presume to be the feelings of those who really want to see the pictures.  

I think there is a lot of mistrust towards our government, some justified, some not.  The fact that the story of the operation has already been revised creates mistrust.  "Bin Laden was armed and using a woman as a shield, no that's wrong, he wasn't armed, but he did put up resistance.  Resistance how?  That's classified"

Every Seal in the operation had video cameras on.  The President watched how this went down live.  So, how the story gets screwed up is a bit puzzling to many.

Ultimately, I don't care a heckuva a lot.  If they published the photos, yes I would look at them.  I'm anti-capital punishment in my views, so I would've rather he been captured and jailed.  Didn't go down like that, so it is what it is.

Osama Bin Laden is responsible for the death of my college roommate.  So, it does hit very close to home for me.  Matt died on 9/11 which is my brothers birthday, and laid to rest on 9/22 my own birthday. Not saying it doesn't hit close to home for everyone, but losing a good friend or relative brings a bit more sting.  

So with that, I've always wanted to see Bin Laden brought to justice for killing Matt.  I'm fine with that justice being the words from the President.  I can see how others want a bit more.  I mean, when someone is given the death penalty, family members of the victim are allowed to view the person die.   At the basic level, this isn't a whole lot different than that.


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## mondeo (May 5, 2011)

abc said:


> You're naive.
> 
> You think the west got to be where it is by spreading love to our enemy (and NOT killing them) for centuries?


There's a difference between justice and revenge, though. Justice is an objective decision to take action against those that wrong others, in order to provide deterrence, reform the perpetrator, and protect the populace from further wrongs. Revenge is an emotional response to make someone feel good.

I think everyone is pretty much ok with Bin Laden dying in order to weaken a terrorist movement, where the only goal is to destabilise and kill. Taking joy because we got the guy who did 9/11 is a sentiment of revenge, and what I, and others, are against. It's the same sentiment that Bin Laden used to recruit the people that actually flew the planes, actually blew up the embassies in '98, actually attack soldiers in Iraq. The celebrations in the street and at sports events are fundamentally no different than Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11. It's a celebration of revenge against your enemy. The justness of the actual event are on completely different ends of the spectrum, but anyone that celebrates the death of an enemy isn't primarily concerned about justice.


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## gmcunni (May 5, 2011)

Satellite-Linked Camera Feeds
Helmet-mounted cameras beamed live video from the front line back to American headquarters, enabling military and intelligence chiefs to closely monitor the operation, and giving them a first-person perspective from the safety of the Situation Room. President Obama and several key advisors witnessed real-time footage from the raid as he gave the order to SEAL Team 6 to move in.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-technologies-helped-bin-laden/#ixzz1LVI224O4


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## deadheadskier (May 5, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> Satellite-Linked Camera Feeds
> Helmet-mounted cameras beamed live video from the front line back to American headquarters, enabling military and intelligence chiefs to closely monitor the operation, and giving them a first-person perspective from the safety of the Situation Room. President Obama and several key advisors witnessed real-time footage from the raid as he gave the order to SEAL Team 6 to move in.
> 
> Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-technologies-helped-bin-laden/#ixzz1LVI224O4



Which is why we shouldn't be seeing revisions like this

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/us/politics/05binladen.html?_r=1


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## abc (May 5, 2011)

mondeo said:


> There's a difference between justice and revenge, though. Justice is an objective decision to take action against those that wrong others, in order to provide deterrence, reform the perpetrator, and protect the populace from further wrongs.
> 
> *Revenge is an emotional response to make someone feel good.*
> 
> I think everyone is pretty much ok with Bin Laden dying in order to weaken a terrorist movement, where the only goal is to destabilise and kill. Taking joy because we got the guy who did 9/11 is a sentiment of revenge, and what I, and others, are against. It's the same sentiment that Bin Laden used to recruit the people that actually flew the planes, actually blew up the embassies in '98, actually attack soldiers in Iraq. The celebrations in the street and at sports events are fundamentally no different than Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11. It's a celebration of revenge against your enemy. The justness of the actual event are on completely different ends of the spectrum, but anyone that celebrates the death of an enemy isn't primarily concerned about justice.


I do get your point but I'm not entirely convince revenge is the ONLY thing that makes someone feel good. 

On the same vain, I don't share the view the celebration the Palestinians had after 9/11 was of revenge. It's a war between the two groups. It's a celebration of their "success" in showing their strength. And the same "success" when we got Bin Laden. 

I feel too many people put too much weight on the individual called Bin Laden. I, and many like me, don't think of him in a human term. He doesn't deserve that. But he's however a symbol of the terrorist. So his death isn't so much his life coming to an end, it's a symbol we are getting an upper hand (at this short moment, that is). 

When Bin Laden gave up his comfortable life and dedicated it to Islamic terrorism, he ceased to be an individual. His death is equally un-human. As far as he's concern, he's becoming a martyr. Same with all the suicide killers. The sooner we accept the non-human nature of it, the better will can deal with them.


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## dmc (May 5, 2011)

Key advisors are not trained in interpreting what was displayed on the screens..


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## mondeo (May 5, 2011)

dmc said:


> Key advisors are not trained in interpreting what was displayed on the screens..


Plus I'm guessing it all happened in about 5-10 minutes. For someone not trained in urban assault, it probably happened very fast. The initial opposing gunfire coupled with a decent amount of gunfire on multiple screens from the SEALs could pretty easily confuse someone not used to combat. Also, the whole unarmed thing is a bit of a stretch. Just because the people killed weren't aiming an AK-47 or Glock at the SEALs doesn't mean they weren't dangerous or submissive. I read one report that said OBL was within a couple steps of a couple guns. Not quite harmless.

Also,


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## ctenidae (May 5, 2011)

I like that graphic. Excellent.


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## dmc (May 5, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Plus I'm guessing it all happened in about 5-10 minutes. For someone not trained in urban assault, it probably happened very fast. The initial opposing gunfire coupled with a decent amount of gunfire on multiple screens from the SEALs could pretty easily confuse someone not used to combat. Also, the whole unarmed thing is a bit of a stretch. Just because the people killed weren't aiming an AK-47 or Glock at the SEALs doesn't mean they weren't dangerous or submissive. I read one report that said OBL was within a couple steps of a couple guns. Not quite harmless.



All too familiar with AK-47s after skiing in Kashmir...   seriously.. Everyone was carrying one..

the thing about bi Laden is - he didn't think twice about murdering thousands and sent many people to their deaths with bombs strapped to their waist..  
If i saw him from across the room - i'd take him out too..  Not telling what he'd do..

I JUST heard on the radio that he appeared afraid..  That makes me happy that his last moments were terror..  I think he was just a spoiled rich kid that had a grudge..  And when they chips were down - he pussed...

Think about all his speeches and stuff - it's all about $$$$..  How he hurt us financially, etc...   He was just a rich brat...


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## campgottagopee (May 5, 2011)

dmc said:


> All too familiar with AK-47s after skiing in Kashmir...   seriously.. Everyone was carrying one..
> 
> the thing about bi Laden is - he didn't think twice about murdering thousands and sent many people to their deaths with bombs strapped to their waist..
> If i saw him from across the room - i'd take him out too..  Not telling what he'd do..
> ...



That, and I hope one of those badass SEAL's kicked him right in the junk


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## riverc0il (May 5, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> "We don't need to spike the football."
> PRESIDENT OBAMA, on his decision to not release photographs of Osama bin Laden's corpse.


LOL. Our Pres has a way with words. His stand up last week was great.



dmc said:


> You have to ask yourself - how many more will die if the photos are shown...
> 
> i bet a shtiload...


Yup. I think this is the most important thing. No need to stoke the fires.



wa-loaf said:


> I'm kidding, but it's a no win situation. Don't release them and people will suspect it's fake, release them and they'll just say the photo's are fake. I guess they figured screw the conspiracy theorist who won't be happy with whatever we do and just try not to incite more violence in the middle east. Personally I'd like to see them, but I'm not making the decisions.


On the flip side, they might as well release them now. They are just going to release them in two years any ways when Donald Trump won't shut up about it not being real without seeing the FULL documentation. :razz:


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## Glenn (May 6, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Also,



LMAO! Great graphic! So true.


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## SkiFanE (May 6, 2011)

As the week passes and people are bitching about the details and shoulda, woulda, coulda's all I can think is:  WOW...USA kicks Ass.  Big Time.  All the technology invented here, and used on the mission is impressive.  The SEALS training.  The great snooping by CIA.  Great decisions by the Pres.


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## jack97 (May 6, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> As the week passes and people are bitching about the details and shoulda, woulda, coulda's all I can think is:  WOW...USA kicks Ass.  Big Time.  All the technology invented here, and used on the mission is impressive.  The SEALS training.  The great snooping by CIA.  Great decisions by the Pres.




Giving up the stealth heli hurts..... what ever is left is going to China.

From the looks of it, this was def a seek and destroy mission. Could have done it with a drone but the prez wanted boots on the ground to verify he was dead.


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## dmc (May 6, 2011)

jack97 said:


> Giving up the stealth heli hurts..... what ever is left is going to China.
> 
> From the looks of it, this was def a seek and destroy mission. Could have done it with a drone but the prez wanted boots on the ground to verify he was dead.



Well that and all the intel - friggin priceless!!!.


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## jack97 (May 6, 2011)

dmc said:


> Well that and all the intel - friggin priceless!!!.



for sure....  drones or a cruise missile would have definitely destroyed all the info he had with him.


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## dmc (May 6, 2011)

jack97 said:


> for sure....  drones or a cruise missile would have definitely destroyed all the info he had with him.



We needed to go there..  And apparently we were watching for a while - right under Pakistan's noses...


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## mondeo (May 6, 2011)

jack97 said:


> Giving up the stealth heli hurts..... what ever is left is going to China.
> 
> From the looks of it, this was def a seek and destroy mission. Could have done it with a drone but the prez wanted boots on the ground to verify he was dead.


Wasn't a stealth helicopter, it was a lightly modified Blackhawk. The technology isn't anything different than what goes into every F-16C/D, which Pakistan has had for a few years now. It wasn't even a classified program.


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## gmcunni (May 6, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Wasn't a stealth helicopter, it was a lightly modified Blackhawk. The technology isn't anything different than what goes into every F-16C/D, which Pakistan has had for a few years now. It wasn't even a classified program.



Stealth Black Hawk Helicopters
Photographs sold to Reuters revealed the remains of a top secret Black Hawk stealth helicopter sporting several modifications, a machine that allowed the U.S. team to infiltrate Pakistani undetected. Designed for special forces missions, these choppers can carry up to 11 soldiers and come with three types of guns: mini, chain, and gatling.
The tail design of the helicopter seen in these photos shows an unusual assembly, possibly hinting at a type of previously-unknown stealth capability, experts said.
"It was a secretly developed stealth helicopter, probably a highly modified version of an H-60 Blackhawk," reported Bill Sweetman on Aviation Week’s Ares blog. "The helicopter's tail features stealth-configured shapes on the boom and tip fairings, swept stabilizers and a "dishpan" cover over a non-standard five-or-six-blade tail rotor. It has a silver-loaded infra-red suppression finish similar to that seen on some V-22s."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...-technologies-helped-bin-laden/#ixzz1LcZX0rrM


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2011)

Man do I love the National Enquirer. This week's headline: "HIGH ON HEROIN & RATTED OUT BY WIFE: OSAMA BIN LADEN'S FINAL MINUTES."


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## mondeo (May 6, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> Stealth Black Hawk Helicopters
> Photographs sold to Reuters revealed the remains of a top secret Black Hawk stealth helicopter sporting several modifications, a machine that allowed the U.S. team to infiltrate Pakistani undetected. Designed for special forces missions, these choppers can carry up to 11 soldiers and come with three types of guns: mini, chain, and gatling.
> The tail design of the helicopter seen in these photos shows an unusual assembly, possibly hinting at a type of previously-unknown stealth capability, experts said.
> "It was a secretly developed stealth helicopter, probably a highly modified version of an H-60 Blackhawk," reported Bill Sweetman on Aviation Week’s Ares blog. "The helicopter's tail features stealth-configured shapes on the boom and tip fairings, swept stabilizers and a "dishpan" cover over a non-standard five-or-six-blade tail rotor. It has a silver-loaded infra-red suppression finish similar to that seen on some V-22s."
> ...


Bill Sweetman is full of shit, he loves taking stuff without a public explanation and turing it into something fantastic. Just like he pretty much single handedly took a slip-up in a Reagan speech that referred to the Aurora program (more commonly known as the B-2) and invented a Mach 5 reconnaissance plane that, quite simply, doesn't exist.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-raid-reveals-us-armys-helicopter-secret.html



> The bolt-on kits are *not classified*, but they have been kept secret within the special operations community for as long as two decades.


Big, big difference between top secret and not classified.

The stealth helicopter theory just doesn't make sense. The RAH-66 is how you do stealth in a helicopter. And it was a public program at least 15 years ago, from what I can tell it was public from its inception in the 80s. The story from Flight is much more realistic. Shield the radar-ugly tail rotor hub. Facet the tail boom. Coat the windscreen with some gold. No method which hasn't been fundamentally in the public domain for the last 20 years, since the F-117 was declassified (and fundamentally, since the Russian scientist wrote that paper in the 60s.) No technology any different than what's in the F-16C and F/A-18E. Why would you have a black program for a mildly modified Blackhawk incorporating a few known stealth techniques? Way to much cost to justify no benefit.

And it's a standard Blackhawk rotor, other than the cover. What no one has apparently put enough thought into is that only 4 blades are shown. Look at where the blades cross the hub shield, there's a small cut-out. The two blades in the fore front are very clearly where they're supposed to be, without any blades missing. There is no way in hell there's a blade missing elsewhere, that would create a massive imbalance and destroy the hub pretty quickly. The one closest to the ground is bent or broken at the hub, the other three have 90 degree seperation that just looks a little funky because of the angle. Try covering top blade, the other two now look much more like they're directly opposed. Cover the rear, you can sorta see the other two are 90 degrees apart.


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## jack97 (May 7, 2011)

lots of ways stealth tech can be defined other than radar sig.....

article below talks about mods for infrared sig, sound muffling... 

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...aden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth Helicopter


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## mondeo (May 7, 2011)

jack97 said:


> lots of ways stealth tech can be defined other than radar sig.....
> 
> article below talks about mods for infrared sig, sound muffling...
> 
> http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...aden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth Helicopter


Yes, but covering up the tail rotor hub doesn't do anything for sound or IR. That's pure radar. All the sound from helicopters comes from the rotors, and despite what Sweetman wants to say, the tail rotor itself was pretty much stock.

Again, Bill Sweetman is not a credible source of information. He's more speculative than the National Inquirer.


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## Nick (May 9, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Man do I love the National Enquirer. This week's headline: "HIGH ON HEROIN & RATTED OUT BY WIFE: OSAMA BIN LADEN'S FINAL MINUTES."



:lol:

BIN LADEN SECRETLY FATHER OF OCTO-BABIES


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