# Not that you care all that much...



## koreshot (Aug 11, 2008)

....but my homeland is under attack and most of the international community, as expected, doesn't feel the urge to do anything about it.

Georgia's president, the poor politician and leader that he is, dediced on Thursday to poke the Russian bear with a pathetic and badly prepared army.  Now my people are paying the price as Russia responds with a massive military strike and moves into postion to invade the whole country.

The western world has had a rather underwhelming reaction to what is happening in Eastern Europe, to a country that was on the path to joining NATO. But that is only fair.  There have been many other horrible conflicts where thousands died as the powerful nations stood aside and watched the killing unfold.

Except this time, the people being killed could be my father, my grandmother, my cousins and their toddler children.

Sorry, I know, crappy topic, but I had to vent a bit.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 11, 2008)

I actually just heard about all the fighting yesterday in the NYTimes..I think 1500 are dead so far..it stinks..what is the reason for all the killing???


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## andyzee (Aug 11, 2008)

Sorry Koreshot, hope your family makes it through this mess ok.


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## koreshot (Aug 11, 2008)

Reason for killing is that a small separatist area of Georgia decided to leave the republic and join Russia.  Russia was happy to offer them a new home.

Supposedly, and quite possibly, Georgia launched a surprise attack to regain the region.  Amazing what people will do for their land and their people.  They will even kill every single human on their land if that will help get it back.

Russia has a recent history of disliking Georgia because it wants to join NATO, it is a US ally, etc..., now they have the excuse to kick our butts.


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## 2knees (Aug 11, 2008)

my thoughts and prayers.  hopefully, the political bullshit doesnt impede the peace process.


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## Paul (Aug 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Sorry Koreshot, hope your family makes it through this mess ok.



x2


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## dmc (Aug 11, 2008)

First of all - thanks for giving all of us Americans the benfit of the doubt....  NOT!!!!!
I think we Americans are a caring people...  Wait... your one of us right?


I love how our "president" says it's bad that Russia invaded a sovereign country...  Like he's never done that.  

Yeah it sucks - but don't generalize... There are many of us "westerners" that care..  So back off a bit on your diatribe....  I don't lump all Georgians into a category - I'd thank you to do the same to us in the US.....

But what are we supposed to do?   I don't even 100% know who attacked who..   For all i know this could be Georgia's doing...

And frankly - I don't want us to go to war for other countries problems anymore...
And I don't want "MY PEOPLE" to die for "your people".  So I'd prefer we stay way out of it...  Sorry... 

Enough is enough...

If your really upset..  Book a ticket..  and buy a gun... defend your country..  
Dont just try to come of as a person who thinks people do not care...

there... I said.. it...


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## hardline (Aug 11, 2008)

dmc said:


> First of all - thanks for giving all of us Americans the benfit of the doubt....  NOT!!!!!
> I think we Americans are a caring people...  Wait... your one of us right?
> 
> 
> ...



damm having a bad day?


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## ski9 (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> But what are we supposed to do?   I don't even 100% know who attacked who..   For all i know this could be Georgia's doing...



Wow, I thought I was reading a PASR post. "I'm uninformed, but take a strong and offensive position despite my ignorance."

Anyway, koreshot, I hope events ratchet down a bit on their own because there's no way the US can help and NATO is useless. Georgia stepped up to fight side by side with America in the Middle East, so we certainly owe them some security. Georgia has every right to maintain it's own issues as a sovereign nation and Russia was just looking for an excuse...


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> First of all - thanks for giving all of us Americans the benfit of the doubt....  NOT!!!!!
> I think we Americans are a caring people...  Wait... your one of us right?
> 
> 
> ...




Wow.....Uhhh, take one of these and call me in the morning:


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 12, 2008)

This may very well turn out to be considered a "political" post....be forewarned.

An important aspect of the Georgia-Russia conflict is that it has resulted in the withdrawl of Georgian troops from northeast Iraq. This has left the Iraq-Iran border essentially unguarded. I'm concerned this open portal may allow for an influx of what the Americans consider undesirables into Iraq. This may be just the spark needed to justify expansion of the present military activities in Iraq over the border into Iran. 

"We" need to keep our eyes open here.


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## Marc (Aug 12, 2008)

I've been following the conflict Kore, but truthfully, only because I know you.  I hope your family stays safe.

If it's any consolation, check out the headlines on Drudge this morning.  It's getting more attention then you might first think.

If this stuff all settles down, we should get you into touring and then you can take me on a trip over there for some "between the seas" skiing.


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## Marc (Aug 12, 2008)

http://www.necn.com/Boston/World/Ru...to-military-action-in-Georgia/1218533068.html


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Wow.....Uhhh, take one of these and call me in the morning:



Whatever...


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

Dr Skimeister said:


> This may very well turn out to be considered a "political" post....be forewarned.
> 
> An important aspect of the Georgia-Russia conflict is that it has resulted in the withdrawl of Georgian troops from northeast Iraq. This has left the Iraq-Iran border essentially unguarded. I'm concerned this open portal may allow for an influx of what the Americans consider undesirables into Iraq. This may be just the spark needed to justify expansion of the present military activities in Iraq over the border into Iran.
> 
> "We" need to keep our eyes open here.



Well said...


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## BeanoNYC (Aug 12, 2008)

Wow, Koreshot.  Sorry to hear you have family in Georgia.  Are they in S. Ossetia?  My thoughts are with your family.

That being said, I agree with DMC that you shouldn't lump all Westerners in as being apathetic to what's going on.  This Westerner, has been worried about this conflict since its outbreak.

From my understanding of the situation this is an attempt at ethnic unification gone political and bad.  (Much like taco bell, history tends to repeat itself.)  North Ossetia is in Russia and South Ossetia is in Georgia.  All the South Ossetians want to do is unite with their Northern conterparts.  
I agree with you that Georgia's president poked at a sleeping bear by his actions in Southern Ossetia.  It's a shame that pride and greed for land got in the way of rational thinking.  Unfortunately the people of Georgia will pay the price for their president's actions.

Doc:  I agree that the vacancy left by the Georgian army poses a military problem in Iraq.  What I find more intersting is that by not acting in favor of Georgia (although, to me, they were clearly the agressor) we will start to see NATO (or at least the true essence of it) unravel.  

Once again, Koreshot, my thoughts are with your family.


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

ski9 said:


> Wow, I thought I was reading a PASR post. "I'm uninformed, but take a strong and offensive position despite my ignorance."



Yeah and your blabbering too... it does seem like PASR...  :roll:

Look- i don't trust anyone in this mess..   i don't know who's right and who's wrong...

I get mixed signals from my "Government"...

And i don't pick sides because someone tells me too..   i believe that shows that I am not ignorant..


Forgive me all for not being the comfortable status quo...

this place is getting way to Pocono for me ....


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

BeanoNYC said:


> That being said, I agree with DMC that you shouldn't lump all Westerners in as being apathetic to what's going on.  This Westerner, has been worried about this conflict since its outbreak.



There's many of us that feel this way...  And i think that's what set me off...

i was defending MY people...  And I;m sick of MY people having to fight others wars


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

hardline said:


> damm having a bad day?



i was having a great day and still am...

thanks for caring...


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## BeanoNYC (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> this place is getting way to Pocono for me ....



But DMC...All you have to bring is your love of everything.


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

Exactly...


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## koreshot (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks for your good wishes everyone!  Indeed things are starting look a little bit better this morning.  The capital remains mostly untouched and Russia said they are backing down in preparetion for talks.  As long as this direction continues, whatever the decision is, it should be relatively peaceful.

Their biggest condition for peace talks is that the current goverment step down.  Russians have been waiting for this opportunity for years.  Finally they have Georgia cornered and can possibly get away with getting rid of a pro US govt, and a president that is heavily supported (almost completely funded I dare say) by the United States.  If this happens, and Russia appoints a government that suits their needs, the US loses.  I think this war was more about NATO and US influence in the region than anything else.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 12, 2008)

I feel that this thread is politics..which is off limits on this site..


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## ctenidae (Aug 12, 2008)

There are so many tangled threads in that conflict, from the Ossetians to Abkhazia, NATO to Turkey's bid for the EU, and then throw in the Baku oil fields and Azerbijan (where Stalin got his start), pipelines (and the US interest in them), and the whole region is one big mess.

As long as Russia and Georgia are fighting, or even tense, NATO can't allow them in, and the US and other NATO countries can't really jump into the fray, since Russia could take it badly.

I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't more fighting and killing. We can be sure that our presidential candidates will be milking the situation for whatever foreign policy cred they can get.

Hope your family is okay and gets through this mess, koreshot.


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## BeanoNYC (Aug 12, 2008)

koreshot said:


> I think this war was more about NATO and US influence in the region than anything else.



As I alluded to before, this is a certainly a test for NATO.  For all intents and purposes, NATO is not doing what it's supposed to do.  This is clear as day to other members of NATO.  This could very well be the beginning of the end for the alliance.  I say this more out of fascination than anything else because I feel NATO is antiquated and  I fear any military alliances.  

This Georgia conflict has all the makings of WWI.  It's a powder keg of ethnicity, politics, jingoism, militarism and entangling alliances.


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## koreshot (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> There's many of us that feel this way...  And i think that's what set me off...
> 
> i was defending MY people...  And I;m sick of MY people having to fight others wars



Jeez folks.  I am not hating on westerners!  Take it easy.  When I said:



koreshot said:


> The western world has had a rather underwhelming reaction to what is happening in Eastern Europe, to a country that was on the path to joining NATO. But that is only fair.  There have been many other horrible conflicts where thousands died as the powerful nations stood aside and watched the killing unfold.



I meant it - the controlled political reaction is only fair.  The United States can't jump head first into every conflict that breaks out - especially when it is likely that the conflict was started by their ally.  We have limited resources and our soldiers die in conflicts every day.  I would rather the US get involved with what is happening in Darfur, where many more people die every year.

On a related note DMC, the president of Georgia was educated and groomed for political service in the US.  This party was politically and monetarily supported by the US during elections and while in office.  The US supported and encouraged Georgia's bid for NATO, which everyone knew would be a slap in the face to Russia.  The US supported the president when last year the Georgian people tried to rebel against him and kick him out.

This war was really a war between Russia and the US/NATO with Georgia playing the role of a proxy.  The Georgian military is heavily funded by the US, Georgian troops are trained by the US, some of their weapons are manufactured by the US, the US huge military bases in Georgia, and Russia claims that they killed US soldiers on the Ossetian battle field.

So our people are already fighting that war because if Georgia retains independence our people will get cheaper oil, our people will have more political influence in the middle east and our troops will have a safe heaven in a turbulent region.

The picture is a bit more complex than you painted.

I know that politics are not allowed, I never meant for my thread to be politics.  Sorry Greg.  I am not making another comment on this topic.  Thank you everyone for your best wishes!


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## ctenidae (Aug 12, 2008)

I don't think this discussion has gotten political, or is by nature political. It's historical, current events, and of national and international concern. As long as it doesn't devolve into an Obama/McCain slugfest, I personally don't see a reason to lock. But that's just me.

It is interesting that the setup here is very similar to Vietnam, Korea, and Cuba, with Georgia in the middle between the US and Russia. The circumstances of today are different, though, and that reality changes the moves both sides can make. Plus, Russia and the US are both more directly involved than before. We need Georgia independent for access to Caspian Sea oil and as a base of operations in the Middle East. Russia needs Georgia back in the fold to save face. Unfortunately, reason and logic lead to decisions, emotion leads to action.

Someone needs to craft a solution that gives everyone what they wnat and need. Maybe let Ossetia re-unite as a Kremlin-controlled "independent" country, and keep Georgia under the US sphere of influence. Of course, no one knows (or is asking) what the Ossetians want, other than to not be bombed anymore.


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## koreshot (Aug 12, 2008)

In the spirit of no more politics.  A little trivia, Gori, the strategic city in Georgia that Russia captured was the birth place of Stalin.  Even though he is far from a national hero in Georgia, they still respect him as a man that shaped history and keep some stuff around.

Stalin's birth place... comes from a very poor family:






Here is the train car that he traveled in when visiting his mother.  She would not move to Moscow with him and remained in Gori.





My parents have a friend who is in charge of the Stalin stuff.  When visiting from the US a few years ago, we were able to gain access into the car, even had lunch sitting on Stalin's personal couch and then just for giggles took a picutre of me sitting on his personal toilet.

Ah memories...


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> First of all - thanks for giving all of us Americans the benfit of the doubt....  NOT!!!!!
> I think we Americans are a caring people...  Wait... your one of us right?
> 
> 
> ...



Good point...your saying things many think about but don't have the balls to post it.

Personally, I would support helping Georgia much more than Iraq.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2008)

First, my heart goes out to your family and friends in Georgia, Koreshot.  I think that this is a terrible situation.  

But I am noticing that some comments in here are turning a bit political, so I am going to ask that we try to avoid commenting on politics or political views.  That may sound impossible, but I figured I would suggest it....and we'd see how the conversation goes.


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## andyzee (Aug 12, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> First, my heart goes out to your family and friends in Georgia, Koreshot. I think that this is a terrible situation.
> 
> But I am noticing that some comments in here are turning a bit political, so I am going to ask that we try to avoid commenting on politics or political views. That may sound impossible, but I figured I would suggest it....and we'd see how the conversation goes.


 

I agree, wish koreshots family all the best an hope they make it out with no harm. Other than that, this is turning very political.


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

koreshot said:


> Jeez folks.  I am not hating on westerners!  Take it easy.



you implied from your title"ot that you care all that much..." -  that we(westerners) don't care...

Stand by your words...


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## andyzee (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> you implied from your title"ot that you care all that much..." - that we(westerners) don't care...
> 
> Stand by your words...


 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I looked at it the same way, westerners don't care. But I did not see that as a bad thing, just a matter of fact statement. Obviously, we can'tdo something about every trouble spot in the world.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 12, 2008)

koreshot said:


> In the spirit of no more politics.  A little trivia, Gori, the strategic city in Georgia that Russia captured was the birth place of Stalin.  Even though he is far from a national hero in Georgia, they still respect him as a man that shaped history and keep some stuff around.
> 
> Stalin's birth place... comes from a very poor family:
> 
> ...



The middle girl is a hottie..


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 12, 2008)

SCO is telling NATO to stay out of their backyard. It's not like they haven't given ample warning. This is more blowback from 8 years of ill fated foreign policy. Putin is playing Shrub like a rube. Wadda surprise.


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## koreshot (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> you *implied* from your title"ot that you care all that much..." -  that we(westerners) don't care...
> 
> Stand by your words...



I stand by my words, but I won't stay by what you thought I implied in those words.

I could very well be wrong, but it seems to me that your thoughts on this matter are based on a larger global view of US involvement in conflicts.  Until you choose to set those thoughts aside for a second,  you will continue to misinterpret my posts.  If you feel that you would like to continue discussion on this subject, I am glad to exchange a few PMs (in keeping with the no politics rules on the forum). You would be surprised to find out what my position on this war is altogether.

If you choose not to have this conversation with me, then I ask you to stop the flaming posts.  They come off as confrontational and un-informed.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Aug 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> you implied from your title"ot that you care all that much..." -  that we(westerners) don't care...
> 
> Stand by your words...




Why all the hatin'?

Could you please just relax and stop spouting off on "your people" this and "my people" that?

You're coming off a little too red, white and blue.  Dude is concerned about his family, period.  Show a little sensitivity....

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread wasn't locked after your first diatribe.  Guess you get a lot of slack for being a regular contributor.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Aug 12, 2008)

koreshot said:


> I stand by my words, but I won't stay by what you thought I implied in those words.
> 
> I could very well be wrong, but it seems to me that your thoughts on this matter are based on a larger global view of US involvement in conflicts.  Until you choose to set those thoughts aside for a second,  you will continue to misinterpret my posts.  If you feel that you would like to continue discussion on this subject, I am glad to exchange a few PMs (in keeping with the no politics rules on the forum). You would be surprised to find out what my position on this war is altogether.
> 
> If you choose not to have this conversation with me, then I ask you to stop the flaming posts.  They come off as confrontational and un-informed.




Post of the day....


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 12, 2008)

Koreshot  : Our thoughts  and prayers are with your family .  

Most rational  folks want peace on this planet and realize aggression of any stripe is exactly what is wrong with this imperfect  world today . 

 Unfortunately politicians / leaders who are  often less than fully developed demonstrate their particular paranoia on the rest of us daily causing much misery --- that's why we NEED a HEALTHY skepticism about most anything they utter


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Why all the hatin'?
> 
> Could you please just relax and stop spouting off on "your people" this and "my people" that?
> 
> ...




So if I dont' follow the status quo here - I get a thread locked?
I can't defend my country against these types of verbal attacks?

Is this America?  

Of course I feel sorry for his family...  Anybody who knows me personally knows I am a super caring person...


I'm a patriot..  I love my country...


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## dmc (Aug 12, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Unfortunately politicians / leaders who are  often less than fully developed demonstrate their particular paranoia on the rest of us daily causing much misery --- that's why we NEED a HEALTHY skepticism about most anything they utter



Be careful... ComeBackPuddles may get you banned for dissent..  .


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 12, 2008)

I am HE who Thinks "OTHERWISE"


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Aug 13, 2008)

dmc said:


> So if I dont' follow the status quo here - I get a thread locked?
> I can't defend my country against these types of verbal attacks?
> 
> Is this America?
> ...





:roll:


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## dmc (Aug 13, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> :roll:




Right back at ya ComeBMpuddles...


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## bigbog (Aug 13, 2008)

*....with ya' dmc...*

Hang in there *dmc*...;-), the Conservatives in power that believe in history taught by Limbaugh..& McCain...do outnumber us, but it doesn't make their history accurate.   Just because they're louder, doesn't make for factual truth....
What has given _diplomacy_ a bad name is the way that corrupt politicians give away the store for financial favors under the table.....
..$.01 opinion...


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## Marc (Aug 13, 2008)

And while everyone so far has managed to gracefully skirt the Politics borderline, bigbog manages to drive a dumptruck through it with the grace of a drunk slipping in his own vomit.  Well done.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 13, 2008)

Marc said:


> And while everyone so far has managed to gracefully skirt the Politics borderline, bigbog manages to drive a dumptruck through it with the grace of a drunk slipping in his own vomit.  Well done.



:lol:


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## severine (Aug 13, 2008)

Marc said:


> And while everyone so far has managed to gracefully skirt the Politics borderline, bigbog manages to drive a dumptruck through it with the grace of a drunk slipping in his own vomit.  Well done.


Are you sure you're an engineer?  Sometimes you have such a way with words. :lol:


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 13, 2008)

Things are still degenerating in Georgia, hope your family is out of harm's way. I doubt this will resolve itself any time soon. Russia wants Georgia back under the fold.


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## hardline (Aug 13, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> The middle girl is a hottie..



as in gym teacher from siberia hot


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## BeanoNYC (Aug 14, 2008)

Georgian reporter gets sniped on live TV (lives)


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## Paul (Aug 14, 2008)

BeanoNYC said:


> Georgian reporter gets sniped on live TV (lives)



The SUN is there.


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## koreshot (Aug 15, 2008)

My family is fine at this time.  My dad is still there because he refuses to fly home ("run away" as he calls it) and leave his mother and brother behind.

Looks like the announcement that the US signed a deal with Poland on defence sheild isn't helping peace talks.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

Glad your family's OK Kore.

Damnit all, I really wanted to go skiing there too.


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## koreshot (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> Glad your family's OK Kore.
> 
> Damnit all, I really wanted to go skiing there too.



Sure beats skiing at Killington.


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

Well after a week or so..

It appears that the West does care...  It's all thats on the news now.. And we sent our Sec Of State over..

In fact - I'm getting scared with all the "posturing" going on...  Between Russia,US,Poland,Georgia...  And all the other "breakaway" states...


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

koreshot said:


> My family is fine at this time.  My dad is still there because he refuses to fly home ("run away" as he calls it) and leave his mother and brother behind.



Cool...  About being safe...
Understandable him wanting to stay..

If I was living in another country and the US was under attack and I was there - I'd stay - I'm sure many of us would do the same..

Is your Dad a US citizen?  
Does the US have an embassy in Georgia?

They may get refuge status just to escape - temporarily ... Having your Dad there could be a good thing if he's a US citizen...


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## andyzee (Aug 15, 2008)

koreshot said:


> My family is fine at this time.  My dad is still there because he refuses to fly home ("run away" as he calls it) and leave his mother and brother behind.
> .



Glad to hear you family is doing good.


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## koreshot (Aug 15, 2008)

Yeah, my dad is a US citizen and he can travel back to the states whenever he wants, but he doesn't want to.

Things are starting to look up, the EU and US have put some good pressure on Russia in the last 48 hours with Rice arriving and all that.  Unfortunately, Russia has already done plenty of damage to a number of towns/villages/cities.

Too bad the Georgian pres is dumb enough to attack Ossetia to begin with.  Not only was it a bad strategic and military move, it put the Ossetians (who he says are part of Georgia) in danger.  I find it hard to believe that he got US permission to attack.  Reckless and wrong. He should probably step down.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm glad stuff is calming down over there..


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm glad to hear your family is safe.

A very interesting op-ed piece in today's NY Times starts like this:

"Few are paying attention to a critical threat in the Caucasus: an increase in criminality that would destabilize the region and at worst provide terrorist groups with nuclear material."

This can't be taken lightly.


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## koreshot (Aug 16, 2008)

Through my father and his network for friends and associates in Georgia I have been getting some interesting play by plays of what is really happening.

After Russia signed the cease fire agreement they continued to pushed closer towards the capital and several tanks and attack helicopters were stationed within 20km of the capital, much closer than Gori.

The are also occupying Khashuri, Zugdidi, Borjomi, and my cousins who are stuck in a village where they go on their summer breaks saw Russian helis setting fire to national forests.  Railroads, bridges and buildings are being destroyed.  Russian tanks run over unoccupied cars, vans and buses, knock down empty buildings.  People stuck outside the city, fleeing back to the safety of Tbilisi have been shot at, stopped and their cars and belongings 'confiscated'.  Dozens of towns have been completely looted.  My father's associate was traveling with her husband and new born to Tbilisi to escape the fighting, they were shot at and stopped by Ossetian militia halfway between Gori and Tbilisi.  They were pulled out of the car and beaten at gunpoint.  Their car was then taken and they were left alone in a war zone on the side of the highway where they spent the night in the woods.

Russia seems to be stringing the international community along with multiple cease fire agreements that are broken - this buys them the time they need to fortify inside and outside of Abkhazia and Ossetia as well as destroy as much of the infrastructure as possible in the areas where they will be unable to remain in control without major international pressure.

Georgia is paying the price for a decade of sticking out its tongue at Russians and for pursuing international politics that they knew would infuriate Russia.  The big bear is making sure the lessons are remembered for a long time.  They are also making sure the Ukraine and other ex-Soviet republics take notice.

I just hope that more contries don't get sucked into this.  Last thing we need is some kind of military standoff between Russian and the US.


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## koreshot (Aug 18, 2008)

Things are getting better back home... fighting has slowed and Russia says they started pulling out.

I came across some pictures taken by a Russian photographer who was embedded with the Russian troops.

*DISCLAIMER:  There are some very graphic images!*
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551


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