# Jay Peak Conceptual Development Plan (2011-2016)



## JPTracker (Jan 29, 2011)

Latest on Jay Peak Development:







Highlights:
  West Bowl: 3 new lifts, 4 ski pods, dedicated back country ski terrain, Cross over lift back to Tram Side, Mountain Restaurant, Skier Services Building, Main Day Lodge, Overnight Accommodations, Parking

Stateside:  New Base Lodge, Overnight Accommodations, Medical Clinic,New Chairlifts, EB5 housing along Chalet Meadows.

Comments: West Bowl is alot smaller than previously shown. This may be good and actually leave more as "Back Country" skiing.


----------



## EPB (Jan 29, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> Highlights:
> West Bowl: 3 new lifts, 4 ski pods, dedicated back country ski terrain, Cross over lift back to Tram Side, Mountain Restaurant, Skier Services Building, Main Day Lodge, Overnight Accommodations, Parking
> 
> Stateside:  New Base Lodge, Overnight Accommodations, Medical Clinic,New Chairlifts, EB5 housing along Chalet Meadows.
> ...



Its funny, both the Jet and Bonaventure chairs look like they'll follow new lift lines.  I'd heard about the Bonnie before, but the Jet is a little striking.  Perhaps going up UN will allow for better wind protection? Didn't the old plans call for a lift to extend from the base of the West Bowl development to the top of the high speed quad?


----------



## dalecaluori (Jan 29, 2011)

It looks like the West Bowl will be its own isolated ski area. It doesn't look like it's going to mix in well with the rest of the resort. I'm not a big fan of crossover lifts, like the previous poster, would it not make more sense to have a lift run from the West Bowl up JFK to meet up with the Flyer. Just a double chair or something, nothing major.

On the positive, looks like the West Bowl trails will be mostly gladed and that's a very good idea.

It's unbelievable how much this place will change in a 20 year window. I don't know what to think anymore. Also, why is there a run right through Timbuktu???????????? What a horrible idea!!!!


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 29, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> Its funny, both the Jet and Bonaventure chairs look like they'll follow new lift lines.  I'd heard about the Bonnie before, but the Jet is a little striking.  Perhaps going up UN will allow for better wind protection? Didn't the old plans call for a lift to extend from the base of the West Bowl development to the top of the high speed quad?



The plan is to replace the Bonnie with a six pack which will go up Power Line to St Georges Prayer, the same alignment as the old Bonnie double.

The Jet Triple will be replaced with the old Bonnie. I hadn't heard about the new alignment but you are right. It looks like it goes up UN.

The T-bar will be no more and replace by the old Jet Triple up Lower Can Am to serve as a beginner lift.

As far as the West Bowl Lift they wanted a lift that could be used by beginners to go from West Bowl to Tram Side. If it went up to Ulers then it would not be good for beginners. Besides a lift from West Bowl to Ulers would cut through some of the best woods on the mountain.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 29, 2011)

dalecaluori said:


> Also, why is there a run right through Timbuktu???????????? What a horrible idea!!!!



I didn't even notice the trail changes. Upon closer examination:






A new trail around Timbuktu
Haynes Widened
Hells crossing relocated to line up with Heavens road to give easier access to the Jet
Angles Wiggle Changed
Upper Milk Run Entrance changed
Green Beret Exit changed


----------



## dalecaluori (Jan 29, 2011)

I can't say I'm a fan of any of these changes. On top of the Timbuktu Groomer, the rerouting of Green Beret is especially troubling to me. I love Jay the way it is. What sets it apart is the terrain, it looks like they're just trying to become an intermediate mountain. They should be proud of the awesome terrain they have instead of trying to modify everything. What's wrong with being known as an expert mountain? Something to aspire to...

Leave it alone!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2011)

I take it that the red lines indicate replaced or new lifts, right?  

So it is "Back to the Future" in the sense that the Jet and Bonnie will go on what were the original lift lines back in the day--the UN I believe used to be the old T-Bar and the Powerline was the old double.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 29, 2011)

Unlike most here, I have no problems with a run on the other side of Timbuktu. That glade gets hammered for reasons that any one in the know understands. Its one of the worst condition glades in New England. That new trail will have some unintended traffic consequences. But its a logical place for another trail and will probably make Timbuk ski much better but perhaps other options not as good.

The Jet replacement on the map looks like a lot of tree removal between Jet and UN. That is unfortunate as there is already very little in the way of separation between those two trails. With aggressive snow making always happening on Jet, I can't help but wonder if that will eventually become a "super trail". 

I LOVE the idea of West Bowl as its own area. I didn't know they were going to make that its own base area with parking and a lodge. Freaking sweet! Not much they could have really done with that lift given the general topography of the area. Bet that will feel like a nice secluded trail pod.

Its really staggering how much Jay has already done and still plans to do. Foreign money seems to have been very good to Jay and I am glad we can reap the benefits.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 29, 2011)

dalecaluori said:


> I can't say I'm a fan of any of these changes. On top of the Timbuktu Groomer, the rerouting of Green Beret is especially troubling to me. I love Jay the way it is. What sets it apart is the terrain, it looks like they're just trying to become an intermediate mountain. They should be proud of the awesome terrain they have instead of trying to modify everything. What's wrong with being known as an expert mountain? Something to aspire to...
> 
> Leave it alone!


I think you are reading a little much into this, no? They are putting in a trail on the other side of Timbuk (okay, some tree skiing will be lost) but they are putting a ton more gladed terrain in over at West Bowl. A reroute of Green Beret means they are ruining awesome terrain and turning the mountain intermediate? Huh? I can understand your preference on not changing, but you are kinda stretching a bit. I am not saying that all change is good, but the mountain was a much difference place dozens of years ago and much has changed for the better. Personally, I think if they eliminate the double fall on lower Green Beret and make it a straight show, I think it will be an improvement. Prolonged double falls suck.

One oddity I noticed is the "white snow" showing the trails does not have the option on Kitzbuelel colored in. I can't imagine they would want to eliminate terrain. The second entrance into Milk Run seems a bit odd. Kinda pointless. Maybe they think they could get another entrance with a different aspect better covered with snow?

Any ways, with the addition of West Bowl and all the additional glades over there (on map and off), I can't even begin to think of anything negative to say even if a few unneeded "improvements" come along with the plan. Jay continues to be a bizarre enigma. Building up its non-skier resort facilities while also continuing to define itself as a "skiers mountain" and expanding its terrain. What other mountain is planning on adding five new lifts in five years? When you think of the limits of expansion most other mountains have come across, this is a sensationally large pod expansion and deserves recognition as such.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Jan 30, 2011)

Is that drawing to scale?   If so, those new lifts don't look very long.  What would be the vert over there?  It looks smaller than Jet.  Why have 2 lifts side by side?   It seems really weird.

I hope its not to scale and the actual terrain is more expansive than it seems.

Either way its exciting to have the expansion.  I hope its reality soon.


----------



## TheBEast (Jan 30, 2011)

Some interesting ideas here.....can't wait to see what materializes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 30, 2011)

Am I the only one that thinks this massive capital infusion is high risk?  Between the hotel and lodge and hockey house and golf course and lift improvements, and etc... etc....  

 I know they want to become a 4 season destination and step it up to be like the "big boys" etc..., but the fact remains Jay is in the middle of nowhere.  Actually, IMO from the skier's standpoint that's ironically one of the best things it has going for it, but from the standpoint of maximizing revenue, it seems a risk spending all of this $$$$.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 30, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I the only one that thinks this massive capital infusion is high risk?  Between the hotel and lodge and hockey house and golf course and lift improvements, and etc... etc....
> 
> I know they want to become a 4 season destination and step it up to be like the "big boys" etc..., but the fact remains Jay is in the middle of nowhere.  Actually, IMO from the skier's standpoint that's ironically one of the best things it has going for it, but from the standpoint of maximizing revenue, it seems a risk spending all of this $$$$.


A lot of the money is coming from overseas investors on the EB5 Visa program, from what I understand. I am sure Jay is ponying up quite a bit of their own funds as well. But they sure aren't footing the entire bill on this project. I think the fact that they are in the middle of no where is exactly the reason for so much of the expansion... so folks have something to do besides ski (especially if there is a wind hold or bad weather). Most folks here don't need that stuff. But folks that don't need that stuff are not the folks keeping the industry, for the most part. Don't forget, it already is called "Jay Peak *Resort*". It ain't like Jay is MRG or anything.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 30, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I the only one that thinks this massive capital infusion is high risk?  Between the hotel and lodge and hockey house and golf course and lift improvements, and etc... etc....
> 
> I know they want to become a 4 season destination and step it up to be like the "big boys" etc..., but the fact remains Jay is in the middle of nowhere.  Actually, IMO from the skier's standpoint that's ironically one of the best things it has going for it, but from the standpoint of maximizing revenue, it seems a risk spending all of this $$$$.



Not saying there isn't risk (always risk), but they got funding from the EB5 program.  This program should minimize risk and significantly increase return.  Through this program Jay Peak has aquired around $200-250 million in funds.


----------



## Edd (Jan 30, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Not saying there isn't risk (always risk), but they got funding from the EB5 program.  This program should minimize risk and significantly increase return.  Through this program Jay Peak has aquired around $200-250 million in funds.



That's incredible money to be able to sink into a ski resort these days.  Jay is in a unique situation but other resorts would kill for that.


----------



## TheBEast (Jan 30, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I the only one that thinks this massive capital infusion is high risk?



Certainly high risk.  But what's our time horizon here?  Isn't this a 5yr+ time horizon?  I think part of this is addressing the issue of the ice house and water park will require many more lodging option which currently aren't available right there at the resort.  I think they've done a great job over the last few years and certainly are taking the right approach in my mind of building a true 4 season resort.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2011)

I wonder when Jay is required to pay back the 500K per individual it received from the EB5 investors.

That's a big compenent in determing the 'risk' of the development they are undertaking.


----------



## dmc (Jan 30, 2011)

TheBEast said:


> Some interesting ideas here.....can't wait to see what materializes.



My take on it too..    I'm down with "interesting" expansion.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 30, 2011)

*a 6-pack????*

A 6-pack up Powerline????  Im probably in the minority but I happen to love Powerline as it is today.  Maybe it's the solitude, maybe part reminiscence for the old double, maybe because all my skiing friends hate it.  I dunno, but a liftline up that run will kill it, for me at least.  And separately, Im happy to let Vail, Stratton & Europe have all the world's 6 packs. Sigh...


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder when Jay is required to pay back the 500K per individual it received from the EB5 investors.
> 
> That's a big compenent in determing the 'risk' of the development they are undertaking.



Not sure if it needs to be paid back other then the investors or their kids getting b-lined for a Visa.  I believe they can get added return if the resort does well as such, but if the resort is doing that well, I am sure the Jay Peak owners will have no problem paying.  Also I have not read all the requirements of the EB5, but I wonder if it works similar to grants/bonds in which the person/company recieving the bond/grant must also higher a certain number of employees per 100's of thousands of dollars.  I know I have seen places in the past turn down these type of grants/bonds because even though the money was nice, there was no way to higher the amount of people required to secure such bond/grant.  Let me be clear, I by no means am saying I am right in the above mentioned, just a guess from what I had read here and there.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 30, 2011)

Edd said:


> That's incredible money to be able to sink into a ski resort these days.  Jay is in a unique situation but other resorts would kill for that.



I think something along these lines was mentioned before, and If I remember, other ski resorts could take advantage of this if they wanted to.  Which makes me think there must be other requirements for resorts to meet in order to take advantage of such a process.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 30, 2011)

BTW, I just read up on the EB5 program, and per $500,000 invested, 10 jobs must be created, and the area that the buisness is located must be eligibility requirements.  One of the big requirements would be high unemployment rates with in certain region/area.  So I guess Jay Peak must be planning on highering another 4000 people..hmm seems odd.  I am guessing the 10 jobs per can be adjusted some or the 200-250 million they have must not all be from the EB5.  This would explain why many resorts don't use this form of capital.  For example a place like Sugarloaf who is located in an area with high unemployment (perhaps not though) wouldn't consider this because really they already have a large housing/rental/hotel pool, so no need to add anymore, which means no adding of jobs.  Their big thing is not new additional lifts, but replacement of lifts, which doesn't add any new jobs....enough rambling by me.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey, JPT, excellent sleuthing and where did you get that map? How do I see the rest of it?  If there is a larger version somewhere, it would be nice to have a link. 

Some comments:

- there is a lot of speculation here. It's just a map, made by humans, humans make mistakes. But then, it's the Internet, so why not speculate?

- I don't think the Jet would be moved, simply upgraded as discussed in posts here and elsewhere. Probably the person who made the map simply put the red line a little too far to the left.

- the West Bowl, if it ever happens (see JamesDeluxe's comment), will become many folks' favorite place to ski at Jay Peak. It will be sunny, out of the wind and mostly blue terrain. Ms. SBR  will love it!

- the thing that has me worried, and I can't believe it hasn't been noticed, is the interconnect from the upper mountain to West Bowl. If it is where I hope it is, the trail will follow the line at the BOTTOM of BP and Andre's, which would be OK, if not it will cut through those beautiful glades, which would be a tragedy of the highest order. According to the image and comparing to the trail map, it goes right through BP and Andre's. Not good.

- "A new trail around Timbuktu" I agree with RiverCoil, Timbuktu is an overskied glade, it generally becomes a bump run with trees unless you are lucky enough to hit it on a powder day. The new run would follow the line of Corona and The Orchard but would be a fun trail, hopefully a lot like the Derrick. The worst part is that it will give easier access to the Dip and have more skiers hitchhiking back on the 242.

- "Haynes Widened" I think this is another mapmaker's error. The Haynes is very wide as it is.

- "Hells crossing relocated to line up with Heavens road to give easier access to the Jet" Good idea!

- "Angles Wiggle Changed" any change would be good for this cluster&%$# of a trail.

- "Upper Milk Run Entrance changed" who cares? Upper Milk is a ridiculous trail, maybe a new entrance would help. Does anybody ski this trail on a regular basis?

- "Green Beret Exit changed" well, whatever. The Green Beret is one of my faves at Jay but it is hardly ever open, so what difference will that make? Maybe they are planning to declare Pumphouse an official run and this is the new exit.

- for some insight into EB5 program at Jay, click here.

- Yes, a six-pack up Powerline. I am old enough to remember riding the old Bonaventure chair and the Jet T-bar. We would occasionally poach the verboten Red Chair line and carefully avoid decapitating ourselves on the telephone pole guy wires (sadly gone now). I'm sure a few lift towers would not interfere too much with with the ski experience. Personally, I find that I ski better when people are watching. And if you don't then you will able to skate over to Can-Am and ski that with no spectators. 

- The Jet T-Bar went up more or less where the current chair is. The UN has always been the UN. If there was a lift on the UN earlier than 1968, I will stand corrected.

Anyway, I say, so far so good, except for the Andre's/BP situation. What is up with that? Walter Elander, are you reading this?


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 30, 2011)

Upper Milk ridiculous?  :lol: I have enjoyed some really great powder on that trail early season. Entrance does tend to be rocky and blown but hey, its got a nice tree island and a bend with good pitch and is overlooked during certain times of the year. I give it an 8.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 30, 2011)

Upper Milk was wrecked by Angel's Wiggle, IMHO. Seems every time I ski it, there are rocks, off-camber moguls, ice and more rocks. I'll take Powerline any day over UM. If you are going to ski on rocks, might as well go straight down the hill. Want double fall-line, let's go to the Kitz!  Back in the day, Upper to Lower Milk was more or less one continuous gnarly run, which was quite a challenge. I keep trying to give it a chance but maybe I never catch it on the right day. Where's my rocking chair? You young whippersnappers don't know what you missed way back when. 

Thread drift...


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 30, 2011)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Hey, JPT, excellent sleuthing and where did you get that map? How do I see the rest of it?  If there is a larger version somewhere, it would be nice to have a link.


I picked up a copy of it in the Real Estate office in the THL. They actually have a wall size copy of it hanging on the wall of the office. Can see plenty of detail on that one.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> Some comments:
> 
> - there is a lot of speculation here. It's just a map, made by humans, humans make mistakes. But then, it's the Internet, so why not speculate?


After all it is called a "Conceptual Plan"



Sick Bird Rider said:


> - I don't think the Jet would be moved, simply upgraded as discussed in posts here and elsewhere. Probably the person who made the map simply put the red line a little too far to the left.


Agree with you here. It doesn't make any sense.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> - the thing that has me worried, and I can't believe it hasn't been noticed, is the interconnect from the upper mountain to West Bowl. If it is where I hope it is, the trail will follow the line at the BOTTOM of BP and Andre's, which would be OK, if not it will cut through those beautiful glades, which would be a tragedy of the highest order. According to the image and comparing to the trail map, it goes right through BP and Andre's. Not good.


The way they have it drawn it starts about a third of the way down that section of Ulers just where it first starts to level out a bit. That would cut Beaver Pond in two with a very short top and a bottom half similar to Bushwacker, a beginner glade. I hope they find a better alignment.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> - "Haynes Widened" I think this is another mapmaker's error. The Haynes is very wide as it is.


As stated in a previous post Jay Peak has already started the ACT 250 process for this for widening to meet FIS requirements for safety.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> - "Upper Milk Run Entrance changed" who cares? Upper Milk is a ridiculous trail, maybe a new entrance would help. Does anybody ski this trail on a regular basis?


I agree with riverCoil. I like this trail the way it is and will take it most of the time to cut the corner off of Northway / Angles Wiggle. My fear is that they want to redo the entrance so that they can get a groomer through there. The way the entrance is now, ith a steep drop, a groomer can not get through.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> - "Green Beret Exit changed" well, whatever. The Green Beret is one of my faves at Jay but it is hardly ever open, so what difference will that make? Maybe they are planning to declare Pumphouse an official run and this is the new exit.


I see no reason for messing with the exit to Green Beret. The trail sees so little traffic why the double exit?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2011)

One observation and it could be just the way it's drawn.  Wouldn't it make the most sense to have the West Bowl transfer lift accessible from the Metro Quad?  That way people staying at the main base could quickly get over to the West Bowl instead of having to take the Tram or the Freezer up and ski down to the transfer lift?

Seems to me that it would reduce traffic both in the liftlines early day on both the Tram and Freezer as well as on the trails from near the summit skiing down to the transer.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> One observation and it could be just the way it's drawn.  Wouldn't it make the most sense to have the West Bowl transfer lift accessible from the Metro Quad?  That way people staying at the main base could quickly get over to the West Bowl instead of having to take the Tram or the Freezer up and ski down to the transfer lift?
> 
> Seems to me that it would reduce traffic both in the liftlines early day on both the Tram and Freezer as well as on the trails from near the summit skiing down to the transer.



Where they have it drawn it will be accessible from the Metro Quad


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 30, 2011)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Upper Milk was wrecked by Angel's Wiggle, IMHO. Seems every time I ski it, there are rocks, off-camber moguls, ice and more rocks. I'll take Powerline any day over UM. If you are going to ski on rocks, might as well go straight down the hill. Want double fall-line, let's go to the Kitz!  Back in the day, Upper to Lower Milk was more or less one continuous gnarly run, which was quite a challenge. I keep trying to give it a chance but maybe I never catch it on the right day. Where's my rocking chair? You young whippersnappers don't know what you missed way back when.
> 
> Thread drift...


You got me there. Given the obvious split between upper and lower, I figured it was more continuous at one point and I have often wondered how it skied. I might not know what I am missing but I certainly appreciate what that trail might have been like before Wiggle.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2011)

Okay, just the drawing then.  It appears to be just a bit uphill from the metro and a stand of trees in the way.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 30, 2011)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> - Yes, a six-pack up Powerline. I am old enough to remember riding the old Bonaventure chair and the Jet T-bar. We would occasionally poach the verboten Red Chair line and carefully avoid decapitating ourselves on the telephone pole guy wires (sadly gone now). I'm sure a few lift towers would not interfere too much with with the ski experience. Personally, I find that I ski better when people are watching. And if you don't then you will able to skate over to Can-Am and ski that with no spectators.



Just noticed that they show Powerline widened with a second entrance added.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 30, 2011)

OK, I'll ski Upper Milk next time I'm at Jay and give a full report. 

I ski JP on a fairly regular basis with a posse of people who are highly resistant to change. We debate the merits of new lodges, new lifts, etc. etc., on the chair, over coffee and around the dinner table after several glasses of wine. What I have concluded is that this is the way it has been for all time at all ski areas. Can you imagine the discussions that went on on in the 60s when the Tram was built? If the Internet existed back then there would have been a Facebook group to "Save the Skyline Chair." 

In ten years, those of of who are still skiing at Jay will look back at this (on some form of electronic device) and wonder (I hope), what were we all so worried about? 

Did you ever think about the fact that at one time, all ski runs on a mountain like Jay Peak were tree runs? Except that nobody skied them. Now Jay has made a reputation on those tree runs and they are mainstream runs, just like Northway, Haynes or the Vermonter. At one time, Canyonland was simply "the woods off Northway." So, things change, we adapt, we find new little stashes like Snofree, Pudd's Traverse, Dogpatch and Strawberry (I'm sure some of you have skied those runs and have your own names for them). In my lifetime, Jay has gone from a backwater ski area used mostly by Montrealers to a destination resort of international reputation. For a long time the lodge infrastructure could not cope with skier capacity. Now things have balanced out to some degree but the trail and lift layout needs some help, primarily to recover from planning mistakes of the past. I'm hoping this expansion will solve that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Not saying there isn't risk (always risk), but* they got funding from the EB5 program*.  This program should minimize risk and significantly increase return.  *Through this program Jay Peak has aquired around $200-250 million in funds*.



Yuck.  I didn't realize it was government money.  

Well that certainly would alleviate the vast majority of risk to Jay Peak, so now it makes a heckuva lot more sense to be from a financial standpoint.  Whenever you're spending someone else's money, risk tends to greatly diminish.

Are you sure about that amount though?   One quarter of a BILLION dollars seems so staggering for one private entity to rake in it's tough to comprehend.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 31, 2011)

It's not government money.  It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.  

JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map.  I'd love to look at it in more detail.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *It's not government money.  It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.  *
> 
> JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map.  I'd love to look at it in more detail.



Yes, but it's a government program is what I meant, not that it's taxpayer money.  And I friggin' hate that program.  Basically, if you have money, you pay for US citizenship.  It's unfair and total BS.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 31, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It's not government money.  It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.
> 
> JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map.  I'd love to look at it in more detail.



Go to the Real Estate office in the Tram House Lodge. They have a high res version hanging on the wall.


----------



## mikestaple (Jan 31, 2011)

The key here it this is conceptual.  Hmmmm, how many high flying conceptual enhancements in 2006 got shot down in the real estate debacle starting in 2008?

The wild card with Jay though is the govt money.  This is definitely a jobs program for a habitually high unemployment area.  So chances are good that at least some of this will go through.

Wait for the hotel and waterpark to wrap up.   Then let's see what they enhance next.


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Jan 31, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes, but it's a government program is what I meant, not that it's taxpayer money.  And I friggin' hate that program.  Basically, if you have money, you pay for US citizenship.  It's unfair and total BS.


so benedict, these investors in the EB5 program create jobs, provide capital, and probably are paying a ton of taxes in this country working and living here and you say BS?   you may be confusing this group with immigrants that take our services, get educated on our dime, commit crimes, and pay no taxes.   EB5 is a total win for the NEK and our country.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 31, 2011)

luvinjaycloud said:


> so benedict, these investors in the EB5 program create jobs, provide capital, and probably are paying a ton of taxes in this country working and living here and you say BS?   you may be confusing this group with immigrants that take our services, get educated on our dime, commit crimes, and pay no taxes.   EB5 is a total win for the NEK and our country.



Hahaha, good thing I wasn't lazy and decided to read down before responding to benedict.  I was going to write nearly the exact same thing.

FYI I have no problem with the immigrants who come here illegally in a sense, or at least I can't blame them.  It's risk reward for them and right now there is little risk once they arrive.  Can't blame people for trying to make a better life for them and their family.  I put more of my displeasure on the US government who for the better part of the last century have done nothing ot remedy the situation.  Enough politics, sorry.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jan 31, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yuck.  I didn't realize it was government money.
> 
> Well that certainly would alleviate the vast majority of risk to Jay Peak, so now it makes a heckuva lot more sense to be from a financial standpoint.  Whenever you're spending someone else's money, risk tends to greatly diminish.
> 
> Are you sure about that amount though?   One quarter of a BILLION dollars seems so staggering for one private entity to rake in it's tough to comprehend.



From NPR.....his words not mine.  

"We've raised almost $200 million of equity capital to transform Jay Peak from a winter-only ski resort to a true 52-week-a-year resort facility," says Bill Stenger, the owner of the resort.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/18/132940734/resort-draws-investors-with-immigrant-visa-program


----------



## BigJay (Jan 31, 2011)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> - The Jet T-Bar went up more or less where the current chair is. The UN has always been the UN. If there was a lift on the UN earlier than 1968, I will stand corrected.



The first lift to serve "Mont L'intrepide" was running up the UN. Then the Jet T-Bar took the alignmenet of the Jet and upper UN was cut to line up with the first lift.

At least, that's how it was told to me by my dad. I took the Jet T-bar as a kid and remember the old haynes.


----------



## BigJay (Jan 31, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> You got me there. Given the obvious split between upper and lower, I figured it was more continuous at one point and I have often wondered how it skied. I might not know what I am missing but I certainly appreciate what that trail might have been like before Wiggle.



@Riv: I remember the "old" Angel's Wiggle (Northway) that was very narrow and you couldn't access the Taxi from it. You had to catch up speed in order to cross the "steep" (-er) wall of the Milk Run or cut through the woods to the bump run down Milk Run. Now the old "northway" as regrown a bit... The old Milk Run was hard and always bumby. No grooming, no snowmaking. It was hard to connect back to tramside from the northway


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2011)

luvinjaycloud said:


> so benedict, *these investors in the EB5 program create jobs, provide capital, and probably are paying a ton of taxes in this country working and living here* and you say BS?   you may be confusing this group with immigrants that take our services, get educated on our dime, commit crimes, and pay no taxes.   EB5 is a total win for the NEK and our country.



While I agree with most* of your assessment, it doesn't make it right.  Basically, they jump to the head of the line just because they're rich. It's wrong. 



*I agree with the previous poster that there's likely no way in hades Jay created directly or ancillary 4,000 jobs off this $200M, unless you're really playing fast and loose with the numbers (i.e. a 3 month long, 24 hour/week cafeteria worker = a job).


----------



## Steve@jpr (Jan 31, 2011)

*Hey all*

Wow.  Lots going on here.  Just got an email from one of our Homeowner's advising me to come take a look.  If anyone has any questions specific to the development, I'd be happy to help clear up what I can.  I have answers to most and for what I don't know, I can pretty easily make up.  Feel free to send em along, and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.  Understand that even though that map is hanging up, it's a snapshot in time.  Lots of this stuff will change and evolve-mostly as we hear comments from folks so happy to hear everything you have to say bad/good.

W/r to EB-5 and financing issues--yeah it's more of a cut to the head of the line than it is buying a green card.  When you balance what the US gets (growth capital, job creation) with what it gives-advancing potential investors to the front of the line, it feels fair.  At least to us.  But I guess you'd expect us to feel that way.  What I do know is that one of the key's here is that, in reality, no return to them is guaranteed.  We lay out a set of expectations in various plans and memorandums, but no return is ever guaranteed.

Hope everyone is doing well and we all get a shot at this thing Tues-Thurs.

steve


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Jan 31, 2011)

"What businesses in America need more than anything is capital," says Bill Stenger, president of Jay Peak Resort, a ski destination in Orleans County, Vermont, and an EB-5 participant. Since 2005, Stenger has raised $80 million from 160 investors in 20 countries (from South Africa to Thailand) through EB-5, and says he has another $40 million in the pipeline. Stenger typically let go 600 of his 700 employees during off-peak season; with help from EB-5, Jay Peak now retains 90% of its employees year-round, and all hail from the nearby community. "  

From this quote a year ago we can assume only a portion of his capital is being raised from EB-5.  ($120 mill).  that brings the job number to a more reasonable 2400 and I believe they are talking about the entire NEK region which i don't think is that far a reach.

Anyway, ....Let it snow!  Bring on the POW!


----------



## neil (Jan 31, 2011)

Angry debate on Jay's facebook today!


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 31, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes, but it's a government program is what I meant, not that it's taxpayer money.  And I friggin' hate that program.  Basically, if you have money, you pay for US citizenship.  It's unfair and total BS.


What's wrong with it? This program has really benefited many less well to do communities in the United States. This country was founded on immigrants. What is wrong with not only excepting poor immigrants but also giving citizenship in exchange for substantial economic aid to the country? This is a total win win. Its not like the country is being flooded because of this program.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jan 31, 2011)

Wow, thanks Neil. Just scanned the angry debate on Jay’s Facebook page -- are the Egyptian riots spreading to Jay! 

Lots to say but…man, need to finalize plans to take advantage of Wed storm; apologies if not all my thoughts are fully thought out.

JPtracker thanks for starting the thread.

*EB5:*
FWIW with regards to the EB5 job creation required, I believe it is 15 jobs for every investor.  The key word is “indirect” jobs can be counted, which ranges from the people that mill the lumber to those that make the steel.  Additionally Jay is using local/US folks to make the tables in Alice's that are from reclaimed wood, to the Johnson Woolen Mills blankets in THL plus they’re trying to multitask with buildings (the Golf Clubhouse also has wedding receptions, and in the winter it is the Nordic Center and the condo check in). Additionally because the new development apparently has no debt and no required guaranteed return to investors – this is huge -- , if need be during the slow time JPR could still have people on the payroll that sit around and do nothing (basically the good times subsidize the slow times; I’m over simplifying it, but you get the idea). 

100% other people's $/equity for construction and mini-perm financing at 0% required return = deal of a lifetime and no brainer. I don’t believe Bill/Ariel have any personal $ invested in the new buildings other than perhaps they funded pre-development costs (conceptual plans, geotech, etc.) and .1% (or whatever %) required as part of the partnership structure. I thought I read (could be wrong though) the 2 new EB5 buildings at Sugarbush have some debt on them, which might not actually be a bad way to approach it for a number of reasons (one being meeting the job requirement). This is all getting outside my knowledge base, so don’t hold me to it! 

One of the other things to keep in mind is that JPR has a system in place to reach EB5 investors, which can take years to create. The system ranges from have a syndication network that can identify potential EB5 investors to having organized Vermont foreign EB5 trips with the Governor and other VT companies seeking EB investors to having an approved EB5 project and regional center set-up. 

Anyways, on to the important stuff. 

*Lift/trail improvements:*
First off, Upper Milk Run – I’m with Sick Bird on this (BTW, hope the knee has healed) but will give it more time in the future, which I think makes it 2 against 2; I would say 50% of the time I bail to Canyon Land; the top always seems to be scratch city, but every now and then I have a good run on it.  Hardly see anyone on it, and I don’t find myself skiing it much since I try to stay off Northway plus you have the upper Angle’s Wiggle zoo at the exit.

The narrow crossover run to the West Bowl through parts of Andrea’s could become a disaster in the afternoon after it gets skied off. I know putting a trail through Andrea’s is a tough one, but it doesn’t look like there are many other options – I just looked at whether you could put the trail at the bottom of Andre’s where the entrance to Kokomo is (and moving where some of the new condos in the plan are), but I don’t think there is enough pitch. It looks like they have created a new low angle glad below Andrea’s that one could use to ski over to the West Bowl.

West Bowl trails I am fine with – I had an inkling that this was the direction they were going to go in trail wise. Remember they gave up the West Bowl ridge line last summer when they did the land swap with the State since they needed to have separation with the Long Trail (plus having the lift to the summit cuts down on the Champlain Valley winds/windholds).

 I think the new groomer next to Timbuktu is partially a result of giving intermediates another option off of the Jet (since State Side is going to be built up/have more foot traffic) – I had heard about the idea for this trail a year or two ago and thought it was going to swoop farther out towards 242 as a way to reign people in from skiing directly on to 242. Not crazy about them messing with Kitzbuehel, other than figuring a way to make snow stick at the top (perhaps that is what they are trying to do by taking away skiers right, although I usually choose that option) – looks like they are trying to straighten the double fall line and widen it so it can handle more users (due to the State Side expansion); taking Kitz to State Side glade is always a fun run, plus hardly anyone ever on it.

Yeah, the West Bowl conceptual plan from years ago (I know JPR has disavowed this; alternative A from ecosign 1/28/03) had another short lift on the east side to a peak which I don’t believe JPR owns (forget the name of this mountain; only about 2730’; heading towards the nipple; believe part of the summit is State Forest and part privately owned). I know a little bit more to the story but best not to say anything on a public forum. There also could have been the possibility that any more terrain expansion would have triggered an indepth and prolonged blackie study (they’re certainly up there, as we have met a few), although I think JPR already did a bunch of studies and set aside some habitat land when they put in the golf course. I think the former reason is more likely than the latter. 

For any naysayers please don’t take advantage of the nice oppty that the West Bowl expansion will make a lot easier, which is one of the more noteworthy items from the terrain expansion. For those who know, please keep it quiet and use some common sense.

*Base Master Plan:*
I’m not crazy about having 3 base pods with lodging and other amenities that are spread out – I realize they have some physical constraints that they have to work with, and thus it would be tough to expand the Tram Side area (which is the heart of the mountain when you take West Bowl in to account) without taking the Slopeside condos via a buyout (which obviously isn’t going to happen) or carving up a couple of Jamie Stenger’s polo fields and croquet lawns (that’s what those fields are for, right?). Maybe it is better to build up the State Side base since West Bowl base will not have the best road access. In an ideal situation, you try to eliminate the need for people at night to use a shuttle or get in their cars to get around the mountain. Three ideas that I will throw out (these are ideas so please don’t throw a 1,000 grenades at me) is 1.) to have some sort of lift that connects State Side and Tram Side, which would primarily be used after hours (yeah, you would have to turn some corners), 2.) not sure if this it possible, but expand Tram Side over to where the snowmaking pond is, and 3.) make the proposed State Side base more of a village by expanding it into the parking area and move parking farther away to where proposed new condos are (also perhaps some sort of short-hop lift).

*Random thoughts:*
This first thought is way out there, so again please don’t throw a 1,000 grenades at it. What would be kinda cool is some sort of lift up the nipple (which JPR owns) accessing all glade terrain, which could be only approached via touring or snowmobile in order to keep traffic down – wouldn’t be too bad of a hike from West Bowl pod.  Yeah you don’t have a ton of vertical, but you have a nice pitch at the top. I could lap it for ½ day if I knew I had less competition for pow; I would be in heaven if you had that with a nice 2,000 sf post and beam rustic lodge at the base that had wood paneling (no white/yellow pine) and wood/stone floors, cool fireplace, small bar, and some cutie picking a guitar. 

It would have been nice if JPR presented 2 or 3 conceptual master plans, which would help jog people’s minds for ideas.

As most here know, none of this expansion would be happening without the EB5 (especially in this economy).  Without 25 years of networking, playing one’s political hand well, and preparing/waiting for the opportunity of a lifetime (MSSI selling) by one person (should say two plus since I believe he has a wife, and he has a good support staff) none of this expansion would probably have been possible – add in, without Bill/Pat L there might not have been a viable and usable EB5 program.  I realize that some will have philosophical issues with the EB5 program, but I will just say that there are few if any alternative ways to finance major growth for an economic engine in a rural, high-unemployment area (esp a ski area, since the the # of skiers/boarders is rapidly declining). There is perhaps also an element of luck – without Bill finding Ariel to help buy JPR none of this might have been possible; without the Montreal market being 1:40 away (and don’t underestimate the draw from Ottawa), the expansion might not be feasible.

*Final thoughts:*
There is certainly risk here. The biggest risk I believe is if the EB5 program is not extended (I believe the program expires next year).  Without the extension, perhaps most of the conceptual plan could be tossed away or take another 5-10 years to happen. However like I have said, Bill plays his hand well.  There wasn’t a certain sign in front of JPR and a certain letter in the Newport Daily in October for naught.

I will be happy as a clam as long as the snow gods give us plentiful blower powder on top of a good base, plus snowmobile parking/access at the mountain. Not too many places in the Northeast where you have a cool mtns plus 3 other high quality options (Smuggs, Burke, Sutton) w/in an hour drive. :beer:

[Steve W. – if you read this, I might email you down the road on snowmobile access; figured I would mentioned it while it was on mind so that you can make a mental note of it; I was talking to someone recently who said JPR used to allow it but stopped, although you were looking at allowing it again – I am a few years away from being set-up, so haven’t asked around further; I realize that you will need policies in place so people don’t tear up the golf course plus the x-country skiers – perhaps some cameras, and can always get that Howie groundskeeper guy in the magazine to track them down; I would love access from Wilderness ROW][Steve -- different subject, word on the street is that Bill was in the bathroom when Shumlin’s asked him last month to please stand – I know perhaps only you will understand/appreciate this comment; you and I were right in the Nov thread; hopefully everyone is kosher, and I don’t think Bill not being there was a big deal]


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 31, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> As most here know, none of this expansion would be happening without the EB5 (especially in this economy).  Without 25 years of networking, playing one’s political hand well, and preparing/waiting for the opportunity of a lifetime (MSSI selling) by one person (should say two plus since I believe he has a wife, and he has a good support staff) none of this expansion would probably have been possible – add in, without Bill/Pat L there might not have been a viable and usable EB5 program.  I realize that some will have philosophical issues with the EB5 program, but I will just say that there are few if any alternative ways to finance major growth for an economic engine in a rural, high-unemployment area (esp a ski area, since the the # of skiers/boarders is rapidly declining). There is perhaps also an element of luck – without Bill finding Ariel to help buy JPR none of this might have been possible; without the Montreal market being 1:40 away (and don’t underestimate the draw from Ottawa), the expansion might not be feasible.



+1


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> As most here know, none of this expansion would be happening without the EB5 (especially in this economy).  Without 25 years of networking, playing one’s political hand well, and preparing/waiting for the opportunity of a lifetime (MSSI selling) by one person (should say two plus since I believe he has a wife, and he has a good support staff) none of this expansion would probably have been possible – add in, without Bill/Pat L there might not have been a viable and usable EB5 program.  I realize that some will have philosophical issues with the EB5 program, but I will just say that there are few if any alternative ways to finance major growth for an economic engine in a rural, high-unemployment area (esp a ski area, since the the # of skiers/boarders is rapidly declining). There is perhaps also an element of luck – without Bill finding Ariel to help buy JPR none of this might have been possible; without the Montreal market being 1:40 away (and don’t underestimate the draw from Ottawa), the expansion might not be feasible.



I dont blame the owners at all for utilizing the EB5 program.  They're doing nothing wrong and are simply playing within the framework of rules that were created.  That said, as I said before, I'm one of the ones that dislikes EB5. 

As far as it relates to JPR, however, I believe that they have outkicked their coverage so to speak on this one.  Despite the Field of Dreams mantra of,_ "If you build it they will come"_, that is not always reality in business  Location, location, location as they always say, and I just do not know that there is a market for a high volume mega-resort in the far reaches of Northern Vermont.  You need to actually have people on site to spend money, and Jay Peak is simply too inconvenient for too many to get to.  It has always been a crux, and I just dont see how any of this changes that.   But it sure must be nice for the folks who live up there and I wish them well.  Hopefully 20 years from now the first player from Derby or Newport will be drafted into the NHL.



Magog Fishy said:


> *Final thoughts:*
> There is certainly risk here. The biggest risk I believe is if the EB5 program is not extended (I believe the program expires next year).  Without the extension, perhaps most of the conceptual plan could be tossed away or take another 5-10 years to happen. However like I have said, Bill plays his hand well.  There wasn’t a certain sign in front of JPR and a certain letter in the Newport Daily in October for naught.



Sure, there's risk, but with money so hard to come by all over the world, I imagine it will be extended.  And probably with very little promotion and fanfare.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 31, 2011)

Benedict- Don't forget Jay is really close to Montreal. Also, its not like Jay has a lack of skier visits. It is already outgrowing its existing downhill capacity due to demand. Likely more (and better quality) on mountain lodging will increase demand. How much is too much? How much fights to too little slice of the pie (because there aren't many new pies being baked)? There certainly is a saturation point. Jay has the location for Montreal. For Metro, they really aren't too much further north than many other NoVT areas. Sugarloaf seems to have done well despite its location. There is something to be said for a quality product over location.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Feb 1, 2011)

BenedictGomez

Please keep in mind that Bill has two major off-mountain EB5 projects in the pipeline, which I think are partially if not fully counted in the $200m number.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Feb 1, 2011)

You guys are all over this.  I have nothing substantial, creative or interesting to add.  This is not wholly unusual.

But I will add that, per Bill, there is zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched.  It's not on the table and only being referenced as a mis-read (or mis-print) of the map I believe.

As to the world of EB-5, as Riv, mentioned (and referring to the sustainability of our business model)-there's a life beyond our borders here in the US.  Depending on how cut up QC-there's a 4-6 million person day market to talk to and that expands exponentially once you get into the destination markets of Ottawa, Toronto, etc..

Anyway, if you have questions, fire away.  If not, I'll just sit back.  

steve


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 1, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> While I agree with most* of your assessment, it doesn't make it right.  Basically, they jump to the head of the line just because they're rich. It's wrong.



and very common to other Nations outside of the US.

I investigated citinzenship in New Zealand many years ago.  Very difficult country to get into and work unless you have a needed skill; generally medical.  

.....but, if you had 300K at the time and were willing to put it into a gov't adminstered escrow account for several years, you could get citizenship.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve@jpr said:


> But I will add that, per Bill, there is zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched.  It's not on the table and only being referenced as a mis-read (or mis-print) of the map I believe.
> steve



This is a great discussion and the quote above is the best thing to come out out of it yet.


----------



## neil (Feb 2, 2011)

Not to get too political, but I see a lot of people talking about this EB-5 visa in a negative way using phrases like "jump to the start of the line" which doesn't really make sense. There really is no line that you are jumping.

As a non-US citizen who has gone through a few visas, I can tell you that there is NO line to even get in if I wanted to become a US citizen...those days have long gone. Even as someone with a Masters degree in a high demand field, it is still unbelievably difficult for me to get any employment based green card.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Feb 2, 2011)

Fantastic and facinating discussion here.Very impressed with the quality of the posts.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Feb 2, 2011)

neil said:


> Not to get too political, but I see a lot of people talking about this EB-5 visa in a negative way using phrases like "jump to the start of the line" which doesn't really make sense. There really is no line that you are jumping.
> 
> As a non-US citizen who has gone through a few visas, I can tell you that there is NO line to even get in if I wanted to become a US citizen...those days have long gone. Even as someone with a Masters degree in a high demand field, it is still unbelievably difficult for me to get any employment based green card.



I get what your saying, but I don't.  When people say "jump to the front of the line", it's not a term used to describe red tape, not actual people.  So when you say that there is no line, but then say it is hard to get a green card, that is what we are reffering to, these people putting down the 500g's get one after a background check of sorts.  And you say it is hard (which sucks), but if it weren't, there would be no point in having the EB5 program.  I apologize if I am still misunderstaind you.


----------



## neil (Feb 2, 2011)

There are 5 EB type visas you can get. There is a cap per year on all EB visas and EB-5 are restricted to something like 8% of them. The other EB visas are handed out to your PhD researchers, executives, athletes, religious workers etc.

So because they have a unique qualification (money!), they aren't leapfrogging any kind of red tape or even people.

You could say that it is unfair that you can get a green card based on money...but the whole immigration process is unfair to be honest.


----------



## EPB (Feb 2, 2011)

neil said:


> There are 5 EB type visas you can get. There is a cap per year on all EB visas and EB-5 are restricted to something like 8% of them. The other EB visas are handed out to your PhD researchers, executives, athletes, religious workers etc.
> 
> So because they have a unique qualification (money!), they aren't leapfrogging any kind of red tape or even people.
> 
> You could say that it is unfair that you can get a green card based on money...but the whole immigration process is unfair to be honest.



Anyone who is critical for the EB-5 should check other countries' policies concerning immigration. I once learned that Mexico won't let immigrants own waterfront property, and they must have a job that would pay them a multiple of hundreds of times the median Mexican income in order to gain citizenship.  The examples in Mexico and other countries go on.  

Very few countries are interested in taking garden variety citizens as immigrants, as mentioned on this thread before.  Its a fairly simple concept with a strong global precedent.  Is it fair? Define fair, and ask, fair to whom?  This certainly isn't something I'll be losing sleep over.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2011)

Enough talk about EB-5.  Let's talk about Jay Peak!


----------



## Magog Fishy (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve@jpr said:


> Anyway, if you have questions, fire away.  If not, I'll just sit back.
> 
> steve



Steve, 

Didn’t think the other day to ask/get an update on the most obvious of questions.  6-pack still a go for next season (I think that is what you said before)? How about timing on existing trails improvements and realignments? Lastly, current West Bowl timing -- all permitted; funding in place; all lifts/trails at once, or phased? 

Hopefully the snow gods are being good to you.  

Thanks.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 17, 2011)

Steve@jpr said:


> You guys are all over this.  I have nothing substantial, creative or interesting to add.  This is not wholly unusual.
> 
> But I will add that, per Bill, there is zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched.  It's not on the table and only being referenced as a mis-read (or mis-print) of the map I believe.
> 
> ...



This from a newsletter just received:


> As for the on-mountain experience ... enhance the entry to and exit from Beaver Pond Glades and Andre's Paradise. This work will give you better access to some new "deep snow" chutes heading toward the West Bowl"



This does not sound like "zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched". It sounds more like the beginning of the trail shown on the plan.

Steve: Can you elaborate on these changes.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 18, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> This from a newsletter just received:
> 
> 
> This does not sound like "zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched". It sounds more like the beginning of the trail shown on the plan.
> ...



Ouch!


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 18, 2011)

Could they be trying to move the beginning of the cross-over trail (on the conceptual development plan) farther up slope -- perhaps it will be more a chute/glade than a trail?  This might not be a bad thing as it could create some long glades/chutes to the West Bowl on the other side of Andre’s, although beginners/intermediates wouldn’t be able to handle them. Perhaps the beginner/intermediate crossover trail will be where BP/Andre’s exit is. Remember they got a few stream crossings they have to deal with. 

Also the Long Trail land at the top of BP/Andre’s is owned by the VT Dept of Forest and Park, and then it switches to the land they conveyed last year to the Green Mountain Club.  On the GMC land they need the buffer from the Long Trail, whereas on the State owned land they don’t (after all BP/Andre’s already abuts it). JPR could be trying to thread a tight needle, without touching BP/Andre’s. It could work out nicely.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 18, 2011)

While I have no idea what the stated improvements will be, I have heard from SW himself in very straight shooting wording that BPG and BBPG would not be touched as part of the West Bowl expansion. Considering how far off West Bowl currently is, I can't see how it could possibly be related.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 20, 2011)

I was a witness to what rivercOil reports. The exact wording from SW when asked about a WB access trail through BP and Andre's was "No way." He also reported asking Bill Stenger the same question and Bill's reply was "not in a million years." So for now, we assume that it was a badly drawn line on map. Theoretically. We hope.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 20, 2011)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> I was a witness to what rivercOil reports. The exact wording from SW when asked about a WB access trail through BP and Andre's was "No way." He also reported asking Bill Stenger the same question and Bill's reply was "not in a million years." So for now, we assume that it was a badly drawn line on map. Theoretically. We hope.



I believe you that he said that but I would still like to know what they mean by 

"enhance the entry to and exit from Beaver Pond Glades and Andre's Paradise. This work will give you better access to some new "deep snow" chutes heading toward the West Bowl"

which came directly from a newsletter I received in an article that I think was written by Walter Elandor.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 20, 2011)

WB long ways off, hmm...where have I heard that before :roll:. I was thinking of betting a case of beer with someone for 2014/15 season or 2015/16 season for beginning of WB expansion, but maybe I will just save my money. I know SBR/Riv might be sworn to some WB secrecy :wink: -- although I doubt anyone really knows when it will happen.

Assuming PL gets the EB extension, I was thinking:


2011/12 – Waterpark/Hotel Jay completion; beginning of Phase III EB5 (100 townhome rental units :blink: where the short-cut road is; they want to put first 17 _modular _units -- might actually be 34 units -- in this Summer if they get the permitting completed; if they start this, it would presumably mean fait accompli for State Side lodge replacement since they would need the job creation as part of the Phase III investment program – I don’t think just the rental units alone would cover the job creation)
2012/13 – 6-pack, plus lift/trail realignments; continuance of adding the 100 EB5 townhomes where the short-cut road is 
2013/14 – State Side lodge (cough, cough) modifications are complete???? Maybe :idea: they’ll do something similar to Saddleback’s lodge, which would be cool. :-D
2014/15 – beginning of West Bowl terrain expansion????
WB permitting will of course take some time (it is quite wet in there), and if they have to go through the whole black bear/Bicknell process...then. Additionally they probably need more energy (I know this is being worked on) and water capacity – I am assuming they will put some snowmaking in WB. 

Hoping weather will cooperate for this Saturday – skiing in the rain can really suck.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 20, 2011)

That is a good question, JPT. I have no clue. "Enhance" could mean anything from a little trail marking to stairs to a lift. Something like this would certainly help the old farts like me :-?:


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> WB long ways off, hmm...where have I heard that before :roll:. I was thinking of betting a case of beer with someone for 2014/15 season or 2015/16 season for beginning of WB expansion, but maybe I will just save my money. I know SBR/Riv might be sworn to some WB secrecy :wink:


The feeling I got was that they wanted to finish up all of the planned improvements at the current area proper before finalizing plans for West Bowl.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 21, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> The feeling I got was that they wanted to finish up all of the planned improvements at the current area proper before finalizing plans for West Bowl.



Thanks for the 411. JPR is taking a prudent approach to the West Bowl, which is certainly wise considering how many ski areas have failed/gone bankrupt before after undergoing major expansion. 

BTW, hope the sentence about you/SBR didn't come off the wrong way -- why I put the wink in there, although it still occured to me after the fact it could be taken the wrong way.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Thanks for the 411. JPR is taking a prudent approach to the West Bowl, which is certainly wise considering how many ski areas have failed/gone bankrupt before after undergoing major expansion.
> 
> BTW, hope the sentence about you/SBR didn't come off the wrong way -- why I put the wink in there, although it still occured to me after the fact it could be taken the wrong way.


Not taken the wrong way at all. I think another issue is that the West Bowl is going to cost JPR with less return. At least until the current development is built out. The Ice Rink is making revenue. The Tram House, new Hotel Jay, and Waterpark will all make revenue. The on mountain F&B is definitely making revenue. There is talk of stuff going in stateside that will make revenue. Is West Bowl really going to bring in that many new skier visits? Doubtful. Are they going to sell more real estate over there? Maybe, but its not like they don't already have existing condos up for sale already. I think their ROI on West Bowl is going to be a lot less than the other stuff they are doing now. And while the lift upgrades certainly are not bringing in the ROI, they really don't have much choice. That is all my own interpretation of the situation, nothing I have heard specifically. It just makes sense to focus on enhancements with the highest and most immediate ROI first and the other stuff second.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 21, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> WB long ways off, hmm...where have I heard that before :roll:. I was thinking of betting a case of beer with someone for 2014/15 season or 2015/16 season for beginning of WB expansion, but maybe I will just save my money. I know SBR/Riv might be sworn to some WB secrecy :wink: -- although I doubt anyone really knows when it will happen.
> 
> Assuming PL gets the EB extension, I was thinking:
> 
> ...



I agree with your time line. The water park and Hotel Jay are on schedule for opening next winter. They have announced the new lifts for next summer and they are currently talking to the Jay Zoning Board about the housing along the short cut road.

What is governing a lot of the time line is the fact that they are not allowed to disturb too much ground at one time. Last year they had to break ground on the latest town houses before the hotel because after the hotel broke ground they would not have been able to break ground for the town houses.

On another note this summer they will be relocating the power lines off power line in preparation for the new lifts.  There was some discussion that when this was done they would put these lines underground.  At the same time they are thinking about running a water and sewer line up to the tram house. One of the things holding back any development of the tram house is that in winter the water is brought up by the tram and the septic field up their is very limited. The cost of doing this can not be justified by looking at the Tram House alone but what it will do for the overall experience at Jay.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> One of the things holding back any development of the tram house is that in winter the water is brought up by the tram and the septic field up their is very limited.


So THAT is what that tub under the looker's left tram is for! I've always wondered.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 21, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> So THAT is what that tub under the looker's left tram is for! I've always wondered.



Yup. That's also why the bathrooms are closed sometimes. If they don't bring up enough water for them.

The other funny thing about the Tram House is the soda machine inside. It's had an out of order sign on it for years but the reason its out of order is that no one wants to bring up any thing to fill it with. It's actually just empty not out of order.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 22, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> Yup. That's also why the bathrooms are closed sometimes. If they don't bring up enough water for them.
> 
> The other funny thing about the Tram House is the soda machine inside. It's had an out of order sign on it for years but the reason its out of order is that no one wants to bring up any thing to fill it with. It's actually just empty not out of order.


It is amazing how much money they are dumping into the base area but the summit building still remains a total pit. Which is amazing compared to how much of a cool spot the summit building is at Cannon. I suppose the big difference is Cannon has multiple lifts at the summit, not just the Tram, and thus more demand for summit services. 

I didn't go in last year, have the bathrooms been fixed up yet? I remember a year or two ago, there were more urinals/toilets not working than actually usable one.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 22, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> It is amazing how much money they are dumping into the base area but the summit building still remains a total pit. Which is amazing compared to how much of a cool spot the summit building is at Cannon. I suppose the big difference is Cannon has multiple lifts at the summit, not just the Tram, and thus more demand for summit services.
> 
> I didn't go in last year, have the bathrooms been fixed up yet? I remember a year or two ago, there were more urinals/toilets not working than actually usable one.



The only thing fixed inside is the ceiling. They replaced all the molded ceiling sheetrock. Nothing changes in the bathrooms. The toilets are minimal in there again because of the leach field is so small. They are replacing the windows and putting vinal siding on the outside but the inside remains unchanged. I put this in line with Killington's Peak Lodge. Maybe they will take their lead and fix up the place. Don't forget the base area is all EB5 money were the Tram House is on State land so they have to use investor money for that.

What would be nice is if they put in the water and sewer they could actually put in a restaurant in there served by the Tram and even serve diner up there. They wouldn't make money on the restaurant per se but it would be a great draw to bring people into the resort, especially off season.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> So THAT is what that tub under the looker's left tram is for! I've always wondered.



I had wondered what that tub was for also. I knew they took water up to the Tram House every morning, but didn't realize that is where they put it.



JPTracker said:


> The only thing fixed inside is the ceiling. They replaced all the molded ceiling sheetrock. Nothing changes in the bathrooms.



I have never been inside the building -- I guess at some point I should check it out. Didn't this past Valentine’s Day JPR run a contest in which the winner would stay the night up in the Tram House. I'm guessing they must have fixed up the apartment up there. Would be a bit freaky to spend a night up there during a blizzard!



JPTracker said:


> I agree with your time line.



I was thinking this past Friday when I was up at Jay that the Tram Side lodge/IR replacement might come before West Bowl.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 24, 2011)

*4/22 trip run down*

BTW, skied Jay this past Friday – just an amazing day. I probably should do a trip report to give Jay some loving for staying open so late, but instead will give a quick run-down here. Major kudos to Jay for running all lifts on Fri. – decent crowd (you could really tell there were a lot of Quebec day trippers), lifts were just about ski on all morning (minute wait at most), although the Tram started to get a line in the early afternoon. About 3” of fresh snow had fallen overnight – when I got up to Jay early Thursday evening, it just started dumping (snow line was probably about 1,200’ to 1,300’). 

Took Tram up first run, and was trying to figure out what to do – if Green Beret was open, would have done that. Headed down Northway and was thinking BP/Andrea’s but there was a giant group of teenagers hiking-up – some student group staying at JPR. Some punk leader thought he was ski patrol and yelled at me to slow down (I was already going nearly as slow as a turtle).  I took one look down Poma and saw some nice powder and bumps with only a few tracks, and said F them and I headed down Poma – big mistake as it was 3” of sugary fluff on top of bullet-proof ice-o-guls; I bailed 3/4 of the ways down and just ripped it up on Ullr’s. After that decided to test out some of the mid-mountain low/moderate glades thinking they might not have frozen-up as solid as some steeper glade up top, and if they did at least it would not be too dangerous – skied Buckaroo, Buck Woods, Mid/Lower Everglade, Expo Glade, North Glade and Hell’s Woods. Everything skied well – Buckaroo and Buck was wall-to-wall coverage, but you could tell those two were starting to get a little thin; Expo Glade had a bunch of pow at the entrance that was starting to get clumpy late morning.  I pretty much just skied the Freezer – I wasted one run over to the Jet (via Hell's) late morning to see how the snow pack was on the Jet, but State Side was getting slushy real fast; ripped some runs down Green Mountain Boys and Upper Exhibition; even Upper Goat was skiing real well. Legs were getting tired fast – I didn’t put any wax on my skis. My last run down was North Glade (thought about BP/Andea’s or Everglade from the top but didn’t want to deal with the slushy run out), which at about 1:45ish was still skiable (not too manky). Overall a great, mellow day – couldn’t ask for a better day of skiing on April 22.

On Saturday I did not ski but drove-up to the mountain about 11:15ish. Windy, drizzle, and raw as hell – just the Jet was running; a lot less cars in the lot than Friday. I walked up to use the bathroom in the basement of Tram Side Lodge, and even Bill was pulling out. 

Jay is still in great shape – should be able to run the Tram or Freezer for another week or two, although they might start to lose Taxi and Bonnie chair. I am thinking with the warm weather this week, they might lose 15 trails – I didn’t see any bare spots on Trams Side other than on Flash (even Bushwacker was wall- to wall); Jet side looked wall-to-wall; Bonnie trails and base was hurting by far the most and had a fair amount of bare spots. I’m thinking JPR will call it quits on the 8th even though they probably could go until the 15th (I’m not sure if Bill wants to play the last to close game yet).


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 25, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> I was thinking this past Friday when I was up at Jay that the Tram Side lodge/IR replacement might come before West Bowl.



The Tram Side Lodge / IR was supposed to be renovated after the Tram House Lodge was complete. Then they started on the Hotel Jay / Water Park so they put off the renovation until after it is complete which puts the renovation to start spring 2012.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 28, 2011)

Didn't look it up... but there is a lot of flagging tape next to the triple up the jet... Lots of trees, lots of branches to trim. Is it for future lift upgrade or just regular trimming?

BTW, really disapointed that Jay is closing this weekend (May 1st)... Last weekend was great! Tons of snow... glades are riding sweet. Lower mountain on stateside is getting thin,,, but again, tons of snow to push around! Everything was fully covered on most trails... No bare spot this late in April is unreal... can't believe that they're closing down.

WAX ski shop sold 40 day passes on friday... and he's just a small shop on the way to Jay... parking lot were kind of loaded for this time of year...

One extra weekend would have been awsome!

C'mon JPR: Make it to the 8th!


----------



## 2sons (Apr 28, 2011)

BigJay said:


> Didn't look it up... but there is a lot of flagging tape next to the triple up the jet... Lots of trees, lots of branches to trim. Is it for future lift upgrade or just regular trimming?
> 
> BTW, really disapointed that Jay is closing this weekend (May 1st)... Last weekend was great! Tons of snow... glades are riding sweet. Lower mountain on stateside is getting thin,,, but again, tons of snow to push around! Everything was fully covered on most trails... No bare spot this late in April is unreal... can't believe that they're closing down.
> 
> ...


Closing weekend last year they only had Haynes and Jet open. With all the snow this year I''m sure they could squeeze one more weekend in. Very sad.


----------



## Newpylong (Apr 28, 2011)

I am just seeing this plan now, and I must say it looks quite ridiculous. 3 lifts and one transfer lift to effectively serve so few trails...the transfer lift is in the middle of nowhere.  just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 28, 2011)

BigJay said:


> Didn't look it up... but there is a lot of flagging tape next to the triple up the jet... Lots of trees, lots of branches to trim. Is it for future lift upgrade or just regular trimming?
> 
> BTW, really disapointed that Jay is closing this weekend (May 1st)... Last weekend was great! Tons of snow... glades are riding sweet. Lower mountain on stateside is getting thin,,, but again, tons of snow to push around! Everything was fully covered on most trails... No bare spot this late in April is unreal... can't believe that they're closing down.
> 
> ...



Hmm, interesting. You got me thinking.  I don’t really have any basis for saying this (so *a big speculation disclaimer*), but could the Bicknell Thrush be dictating Jay's closing?  Last weekend I noticed some new towers lying down, which looked like new chair lift towers – I didn’t go looking for them, rather they hit me in the face. Supposedly the Bicknell played a role in Stowe closing a week early, and Burke is supposedly currently under the gun to complete some of the work it has to do for it’s new chair lift before the Bicknell returns from Hispaniola – IIRC, someone posted a few weeks ago for Burke that from May 15 to I think August 15 you can’t disturb the Bicknell habitat. There has not been an Act 250 notice for Jay’s new 6-pack, although they might be able to do/have old permits for clearing/prep work; perhaps JPR wants to start prep work now for the new 6-pack and the Bonnie move knowing they could be under the gun next Spring to get everything done.

It just seems odd that Jay would not have announced by now if they are planning to be open for May 7-8, and they have not promoted recently the "Mountain Closer Hockey Tournament" scheduled for May 7 and 8.  If my thoughts above are true, perhaps they could be waiting to see if the snow base will allow them to just run the Tram/Freezer next weekend. Like you said, there was a good crowd last Friday plus Jay would have the Montreal market all to itself for May 7 and 8 -- might make operating economically viable; Sutton supposedly might open for this weekend.

Again speculation! JPR could come out tomorrow with something crazy, like they are open until May 22.


----------



## kcyanks1 (Apr 28, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Hmm, interesting. You got me thinking.  I don’t really have any basis for saying this (so *a big speculation disclaimer*), but could the Bicknell Thrush be dictating Jay's closing?  Last weekend I noticed some new towers lying down, which looked like new chair lift towers – I didn’t go looking for them, rather they hit me in the face. Supposedly the Bicknell played a role in Stowe closing a week early, and Burke is supposedly currently under the gun to complete some of the work it has to do for it’s new chair lift before the Bicknell returns from Hispaniola – IIRC, someone posted a few weeks ago for Burke that from May 15 to I think August 15 you can’t disturb the Bicknell habitat. There has not been an Act 250 notice for Jay’s new 6-pack, although they might be able to do/have old permits for clearing/prep work; perhaps JPR wants to start prep work now for the new 6-pack and the Bonnie move knowing they could be under the gun next Spring to get everything done.
> 
> It just seems odd that Jay would not have announced by now if they are planning to be open for May 7-8, and they have not promoted recently the "Mountain Closer Hockey Tournament" scheduled for May 7 and 8.  If my thoughts above are true, perhaps they could be waiting to see if the snow base will allow them to just run the Tram/Freezer next weekend. Like you said, there was a good crowd last Friday plus Jay would have the Montreal market all to itself for May 7 and 8 -- might make operating economically viable; Sutton supposedly might open for this weekend.
> 
> Again speculation! JPR could come out tomorrow with something crazy, like they are open until May 22.



On Facebook, Jay says they plan to open next weekend, and perhaps the weekend after that.  Likely closing mid-week.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 29, 2011)

kcyanks1 said:


> On Facebook, Jay says they plan to open next weekend, and perhaps the weekend after that.  Likely closing mid-week.


Also, quite the dig against the Bush. :lol: Considering Jay still has 55 trails open  it was quite a legit dig.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Also, quite the dig against the Bush. :lol: Considering Jay still has 55 trails open  it was quite a legit dig.


 
I assume that you are talking about this:  



> ‎2 points worth clarifying: This will not be our last weekend. You get what you pay for. Carry on


 
In some ways I agree.  I was :roll: when I heard that Sunday was going to be a free day because it just lessens the value of my season pass, which I bought with the intent of using for spring skiing.  So I am not thrilled when they give away skiing like that either.  Don't want to rain on the parade and all, but it is a concern.


----------



## Newpylong (Apr 29, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Also, quite the dig against the Bush. :lol: Considering Jay still has 55 trails open  it was quite a legit dig.



Given they received almost 70 more inches this year than Sugarbush there really isn't a reason why they shouldn't be able to keep more open longer, not to mention snow lasts longer in Siberia. Not really much to dig, it's geographically based for the most part.


----------



## kcyanks1 (Apr 29, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Also, quite the dig against the Bush. :lol: Considering Jay still has 55 trails open  it was quite a legit dig.



Only 30 trails on the website now.  Is that because stuff is closed midweek that will open during the weekend?  Weird since even with the mid-week lift closures, all of the terrain is accessible, and could be open.  Maybe they have a lighter patrol staff?

I suspect that Sugarbush will have a decent amount of terrain too, probably all of Heaven's Gate and most of Super Bravo.  It's not like they will be skiing on Stein's and Snowball.

Edit:  Well, maybe not quite as much will be open as I thought.  As of yesterday afternoon, their website said:

"We’re still a little unsure of exactly what will be open, but as of now we’re expecting spring classics like *Ripcord* and *Organgrinder* off the Heaven’s Gate Chair, and *Spring Fling* and *Stein’s Run*  off of the Super Bravo Chair. We’ll also have all the runouts and  possibly more trails as well. For an update on exactly what terrain will  be open, check back here tomorrow afternoon."

We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 29, 2011)

kcyanks1 said:


> Only 30 trails on the website now.  Is that because stuff is closed midweek that will open during the weekend?  Weird since even with the mid-week lift closures, all of the terrain is accessible, and could be open.  Maybe they have a lighter patrol staff?



Only Jet was spinning yesterday... lots of trails are closing because bottom of the mountain is melting fast... anything off Ullr should be done now... Still skis great... but the return path is flat and on natural snow... so lots of walking involved i guess... Same with bottom of the bonny. Upper lifts must have great cover still to ski most glades.

I'm looking forward to a great weekend of riding up at Jay Peak!
(hopefully next one as well, and the following one!)

Riding the lifts in the morning to ride... then ride the trails on the bike down in the valley is a dream for May!


----------



## kcyanks1 (Apr 29, 2011)

BigJay said:


> Only Jet was spinning yesterday... lots of trails are closing because bottom of the mountain is melting fast... anything off Ullr should be done now... Still skis great... but the return path is flat and on natural snow... so lots of walking involved i guess... Same with bottom of the bonny. Upper lifts must have great cover still to ski most glades.



Thanks for the info.  Weird, website shows terrain on the Vermonter/Northway (not-Ullrs) side of the Tram open, though it does not show the Flyer/Tram as being open.  Think they'll reopen that stuff for the weekend?  (Not that I am making it up there :-(.)


----------



## threecy (Apr 29, 2011)

kcyanks1 said:


> Weird, website shows terrain on the Vermonter/Northway (not-Ullrs) side of the Tram open, though it does not show the Flyer/Tram as being open.



For what it's worth, two weeks ago Vermonter had wall to wall coverage from the top of the tram, while some areas heading toward the other side had growing bare spots.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 29, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Given they received almost 70 more inches this year than Sugarbush there really isn't a reason why they shouldn't be able to keep more open longer, not to mention snow lasts longer in Siberia. Not really much to dig, it's geographically based for the most part.


Considering Jay's flat run out (flat run outs near the base melt substantially quicker than anything else), I actually am quite surprised Jay has been able to hold on to as much terrain as they have even considering their higher natural snowfall. This time of year, it is all about who blew the most and planned to push it around.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 29, 2011)

Trail count was high because ski patrol just got out on Tram side today to check the trails. Took a few runs today and the current trail count, 30, is accurate. The Tram will be spinning tomorrow. Bad news is that Taxi is closed, requires walking, and the t-bar is broken so there is no easy way to get from the Jet to Tram Side.

They made the pond today for the pond skimming tomorrow. It is just uphill from the Flyer in the last jump on harmony lane. Just uphill from the bar.:beer:


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 30, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> Trail count was high because ski patrol just got out on Tram side today to check the trails. Took a few runs today and the current trail count, 30, is accurate. The Tram will be spinning tomorrow. Bad news is that Taxi is closed, requires walking, and the t-bar is broken so there is no easy way to get from the Jet to Tram Side.
> 
> They made the pond today for the pond skimming tomorrow. It is just uphill from the Flyer in the last jump on harmony lane. Just uphill from the bar.:beer:



Bonnie will be running today so you will be able to get back from Stateside to Tramside.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 1, 2011)

Wow, some serious thread drift here. Just goes to prove that people prefer chatting about skiing at Jay Peak more than discussing condos and waterparks! That is a good thing.

If you haven't seen it already, check out the three Jay Peak trip reports on Harvey Road from Laszlo Vatjay, owner of Plattekill. He has a very interesting perspective:

Episode One, in which Laszlo arrives, and gets the lay of the land:
http://www.nyskiblog.com/2011/04/laszlo-at-jay-peak.html

Episode Two, in which Laszlo experiences a "Welcome to Jay Peak" kind of day, retreats to the Ice Haus and comments on the development situation. All from his cell phone:
http://www.nyskiblog.com/2011/04/jay-peak-vt-42111.html

Episode Three, in which Laszlo has better weather, enjoys the great snow, meets some friends and reflects on the Jay Peak experience:
http://www.nyskiblog.com/2011/04/jay-peak-vt-42211.html


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jun 2, 2011)

*Sky Haus (summit) Restaurant and Wedding Chapel coming soon - apparently!*

Man, Jay Peak just keeps reeling in the $ for develoment -- $45m MORE committed, with $45m MORE on the way. Apparently there will be a new Sky Haus restaurant soon with extensive outdoor terraces – I imagine one of the main uses will be for wedding receptions.  There is also going to be a Wedding Chapel – I assume this will be also on the summit since that is where I believe most of the on-mountain wedding ceremonies are being held presently. It had been awhile since I had checked out JPR EB5 Web site:

http://www.eb5jaypeakresort.com/jay-peak-resort/completed-eb-5-project.php#phaseIII
http://www.eb5jaypeakresort.com/jay-peak-resort/eb-5-project-statistics.php

Anyone know (JPtracker?) if they will be replacing the whole Sky Haus?  I find it hard to believe they will given all the antennas (probably more a gut renovation) but $100m more in capital (apparently JPR kicks in about 10% of the capital) is a lot of $ for just 100 modular townhomes/condos along the golf course (small units; say they cost $175k each = $17.5m), new golf course maintenance facility (say $5m), new administration building (say $5m), new Stateside boutique hotel (say $25m) and sports rehab facility (say $7m), and new Stateside lodge/ski school (say $12m). Maybe Tram Side Cafeteria/Austria Haus rebuild is also in the number, or I am probably not counting some things (new 6-pack chair to get the wedding party most of the way to the chapel? :wink. I know JPtracker said septic at the summit is limited plus the water situation. This master plan map is obviously incorrect:

http://www.eb5jaypeakresort.com/JP_EB5_Map.html

This is the first I had heard about the Sky Haus restaurant/chapel, but it might have just been off my radar since the summit is in Westfield. Tough to keep track of everything going on!

This is all pretty historic in this day of age, plus how JPR raised the capital and mitigated a lot of the financial risk.  Will probably be a business school case written about it one day either for its success/achievement, or because they spent over a quarter of a billion dollars :blink::blink::blink: building everything but did not attract the visitors expected (a possibility given that about 50% of the visitors they are relying on have to cross a border – one bad crossing experience can lead someone to not come back).


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2011)

Jay Peak has been very effective in using the EB-5 program to finance its expansion.  Others are trying to catch up, but they are the leader.


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 2, 2011)

Awesome news about Sky Haus renovation. That summit shack is a pit right now. Completely under utilized, especially when you compare it to Cannon's summit cafe which got beer service added recently. Look at what $teaux gets away with at the Cliff House... big revenue opportunity for those with deep pockets.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Awesome news about Sky Haus renovation. That summit shack is a pit right now. Completely under utilized, especially when you compare it to Cannon's summit cafe which got beer service added recently. Look at what $teaux gets away with at the Cliff House... big revenue opportunity for those with deep pockets.


 
And not to highjack the thread, but Killington's summit lodge renovation plan is going to an Act 250 hearing soon.  I saw it in the Rutland Herald this week.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Awesome news about Sky Haus renovation. That summit shack is a pit right now. Completely under utilized, especially when you compare it to Cannon's summit cafe which got beer service added recently. Look at what $teaux gets away with at the Cliff House... big revenue opportunity for those with deep pockets.



Cliff House has been the same place it's always been for almost 20 years.  I know that throughout the late 90s and early 2000s, it lost money as an F&B outlet at the mountain.  Maybe that's changed now that there is a bed base up at the mountain.

People grossly misunderstand the kind of money ski resorts make with their F&B department.  The top of the Tram at Jay may make a little money, but not much.  Same with Killington's venture.  

Restaurants in cities that are busy 365 days a year make 9 cents on the dollar.  Even with hugely inflated prices, ski resorts do not make that kind of margin at the end of the year.


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 2, 2011)

DHS- that is very interesting to hear regarding F&B! Since I work in an industry that has very high prices but very low margins, I fully understand the potential for the public over emphasizing potential so called "gouging". But even from that mind set, that surprises me about F&B when they are charging $3-4 for a fountain beverage on top of a $10 burger and fry. I do know that fountain beverages are super high margin. Not so much for much of the rest of the operation?


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jun 2, 2011)

Jay might be primarily going after the wedding market with the new Sky Haus restaurant.  Hosting a wedding reception atop a 3,900’ peak has to be up there next to an ocean/waterfront setting as one of the most desirable places. Last Fall Jay had already booked I believe it was 27 weddings for this Summer – imagine that number is now at 40ish. Jay was planning to erect a big tent next to the front of the new Club House for this entire Summer, used mainly for wedding receptions. I imagine Alice’s Restaurant could also host receptions. Guess it is not only Raise'em Jay, but L**'em Jay! :lol: 

Surely Jay will also pitch the new Sky Haus restaurant to conference groups – the new Hotel Jay has quite a bit of conference space, so they are also going after that market (offering them shiny new space plus the golf and waterpark amenties); this is probably more aimed at the Montreal market; how successful this will be is another story. At some point I need to visit Bromont and Mont Tremblant, since I don’t think one can fully understand Jay until you understand those resorts (in addition to Orford/Magog, and Sutton/Knowlton areas – these areas I have a feel for).

Has weddings been a big Summer business and revenue generator for other ski resorts that have the facilities, for example Stratton, Okemo, Killington, Stowe, Sugarbush?

Anyone know how the marriage system in Canada works – do they recognize a ceremony that takes place in the US?

It all comes down to Jay not have to pay any debt service and apparently not being required to pay a preferred return to their EB5 investors on the new buildings (although apparently Jay has been able to pay a few percent each year to the EB5 investors). You get a lot of flexibility operationally when you save -- who knows  -- $10m?, $20m? (once the third EB phase is complete) per year in your cost of capital!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> DHS- that is very interesting to hear regarding F&B! Since I work in an industry that has very high prices but very low margins, I fully understand the potential for the public over emphasizing potential so called "gouging". But even from that mind set, that surprises me about F&B when they are charging $3-4 for a fountain beverage on top of a $10 burger and fry. I do know that fountain beverages are super high margin. Not so much for much of the rest of the operation?



I'll try and explain

cafeteria/concession operations tend to be your cash cows no doubt.  You can make a 50% margin pretty easily on those kinds of operations.*****

Resorts have to have finer dining operations to bring in the people that will buy the million dollar slopeside condo or pay $500 for a suite during holiday week at the Tram house.  Those customers want at least 50% of the quality they can get going out to dine in the city.

So, Stowe puts up the Cliffhouse

Cliff House at Stowe run as a restaurant or a banquet facility is gonna have a food cost in the 26-32% range, their beverage cost is going to be 19-23%, labor cost for the kitchen 20% and 10% labor cost for the front of the house.  Fixed costs of energy, insurance, etc, are going to fall in the 10% range.  That leaves you a 10% margin.  Mind you, this doesn't factor in the cost of the Gondola to get the people up there.

Let's look at how it works on the the Micro level.  Say a table for 2 spends $100.  In theory, the house makes $10.  You know how much a decent fork costs for a restaurant? $4. Knives are more. They end up in the trash all the time.  So now you've only made $6 on that table instead of $10.  

What if the customer decides after two cooking attempts that the $30 steak they ordered was terrible and the manager takes it off the bill? Well, it's not a full $30 penalty to the restaurant, but steak is a high cost item of around 40%, so that plate cost $12.  Now that table has lost you $2 instead of potentially made you $10 in the best case scenario.     

There's only so much bad luck you can write off.  Ultimately all those little things can destroy your bottom line.

back to concessions*****is where it gets so hard for resorts.  

You're only making that 50% margin in the cafeterias on the weekends.   12 weekends out of the year.  All during the midweek of the season that GIANT space still needs to be heated, the walkin refrigerators and all the kitchen equipment needs to be on.  You scale back the labor as much as you can, but you still need to heat the building (which costs more because there's less people/body heat in the room) and run all the equipment.  Then those fixed costs jump up to like 50% because of the lack of volume coming through.  Also factor in that midweek skiers tend to be locals and not spending as much at the food court outlets as vacationers.

The knife in the heart is when you have a wind hold day.  Now a place like Stowe has a thousand people on the hill instead of ten thousand.  Not everything comes out of the freezer.  There is produce in the like which you've bought on Wednesday to ramp up for the big weekend.  90% of that goes in the trash, spiking your food cost.

It's damn hard to make margins at F&B in a city that's busy year round.  Much, much harder at a ski resort where you've got 12 weeks to make bread and in a bad winter can have 3 of those weeks taken away by weather.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Jay might be primarily going after the wedding market with the new Sky Haus restaurant.  Hosting a wedding reception atop a 3,900’ peak has to be up there next to an ocean/waterfront setting as one of the most desirable places. Last Fall Jay had already booked I believe it was 27 weddings for this Summer – imagine that number is now at 40ish. Jay was planning to erect a big tent next to the front of the new Club House for this entire Summer, used mainly for wedding receptions. I imagine Alice’s Restaurant could also host receptions. Guess it is not only Raise'em Jay, but L**'em Jay! :lol:
> 
> Surely Jay will also pitch the new Sky Haus restaurant to conference groups – the new Hotel Jay has quite a bit of conference space, so they are also going after that market (offering them shiny new space plus the golf and waterpark amenties); this is probably more aimed at the Montreal market; how successful this will be is another story. At some point I need to visit Bromont and Mont Tremblant, since I don’t think one can fully understand Jay until you understand those resorts (in addition to Orford/Magog, and Sutton/Knowlton areas – these areas I have a feel for).
> 
> ...



marked to comment more down the line.  off to bed.

I used to manage the 2nd busiest wedding and conference facility in the state of Vermont.  The revenue isn't what you think it might be.


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 3, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Anyone know (JPtracker?) if they will be replacing the whole Sky Haus?



I heard last year that they were considering that when they redo the power line  for the new six pack, which also feeds the Sky Haus and top of the Flyer, they would put in underground and also bury a water and sewer line all the way to the summit. With this done then they would be able to renovate the Sky Haus. This was estimated to cost several million just for this.  Sounds like they are going for it. Will tell for sure when they start work on the power line this summer. We have our annual homeowners association meeting this weekend where they will generally announce this kind of info. Will post more news when I hear.

Interesting how we hear about their expansion plans through eb5 first.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jun 3, 2011)

This is a very interesting development, kudos to MagogFishy for keeping on top of things. FWIW, all the windows in Sky Haus were replaced last fall and some reno work was done in the apartment up there. I used the summit bathroom several times this winter and it seemed to be working fine.


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 5, 2011)

Update from the weekend:

The Sky Haus renovation is still in it's infancy as no real plans have been made just some wishful thinking put on the EB5 site. They will not be putting in water and sewer this summer to the Sky Haus, just a new power line.

Lift mods will happen next summer. They plan on doing all three lifts in one summer. New six pack up Power Line, Move the Bonnie to the Jet and move the Jet over to the terrain park. Nothing else new. Did not talk about any on mountain changes.

Went for a hike on the mountain and did notice one change. The double fall line at the bottom of Montrealer has been regraded and is no more.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 5, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> DHS- that is very interesting to hear regarding F&B! Since I work in an industry that has very high prices but very low margins, I fully understand the potential for the public over emphasizing potential so called "gouging". But even from that mind set, that surprises me about F&B when they are charging $3-4 for a fountain beverage on top of a $10 burger and fry. I do know that fountain beverages are super high margin. Not so much for much of the rest of the operation?



ASC set their food cost corporate-wide at 30% of gross sales.   I imagine 30% to 50% is where most ski areas fall.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 5, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> It's damn hard to make margins at F&B in a city that's busy year round.  Much, much harder at a ski resort where you've got 12 weeks to make bread and in a bad winter can have 3 of those weeks taken away by weather.



Which is why the major resorts installed snowmaking.   If you can fill your cafeteria from mid-November and make lots of money selling beer & burgers on the deck in April, the whole F&B operation ends up looking a lot better.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jun 5, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> Update from the weekend:



Thanks JPtracker for the update – I had been thinking the JPR HOA meeting would be happening about now.

So they have raised $45m more (with another $45m in the process of being raised), and it sounds like they don’t know for sure what they are going to do with it other than put in the 34 townhomes along the golf course (which they have submitted an Act 250 application for; attached are the links). I’ll take a donation! :lol: 

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/site/cfm/act250/detail.cfm?ID=25861

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/Planning/7R0854-7-8/Site Plan P3 - Site Grading Plan.pdf

Did they say anything at the HOA about what would be in the third EB phases and timing (e.g. new Stateside Lodge, Stateside hotel)?  Anything new about mountain biking?  I know JPR is in the process of restating and amending their existing Planned Unit Development plan with the Town of Jay, so maybe no major announcements and rocking of the boat until this is complete – would be understandable. JPR might have been rushing to get the third phase money committed even if development plans were not complete since the EB program is expiring this year -- although IIRC Leahy is pushing to get it extended/made permanent.  Better to get the $ committed, then risk the program expiring!



Sick Bird Rider said:


> FWIW, all the windows in Sky Haus were replaced last fall and some reno work was done in the apartment up there. I used the summit bathroom several times this winter and it seemed to be working fine.



I thought I had remembered them putting in new windows last Summer, and renovating the apartment. At some point I need to check out the Sky Haus bathroom – I have this image of something worse than the lower level Stateside bathroom, which makes one want to uke:.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jun 6, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> At some point I need to check out the Sky Haus bathroom – I have this image of something worse than the lower level Stateside bathroom, which makes one want to uke:.



The Sky Haus bathroom is the best kept secret stash at Jay (well, not after this). Most people think it is closed or don't know it's there. It needs a paint job but other than that, I always find it clean, pleasant and uncrowded. Everything a bathroom should be!


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 20, 2011)

Jay has submitted their ACT 250 permit application for trail improvements for this summer. They include:

1) Andre's Paradise - The exit trail at the bottom is going to be double in length giving easier access to more terrain. No changes to the entrance or actual glade as promised.

2) Alligator Alley / Goat intersection - Will be regraded

3) Taxi - Some of the breakovers into the woods will be cleaned up.

4) Haynes - Part of the upper trail will be widened.

Details can be seen here. 

The permit is also for the relocation of the power line. It will be going up Lift Line and Can Am.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks for the update, JPT. Hope you don't mind, I'm going to repost this on the RJPSR. Maybe I should enable Google AdWords so I can put you on the payroll!

#s 2 and 3 seem like no-brainers. Personally, I don't see any reason why the Haynes Glacier needs to be any wider than it is. The AP exit extension is interesting - could have negative repercussions if it tempts more people to go "Beyond" and they still miss the exit trail.

Hot enough for you?


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 21, 2011)

SBR no problem with the repost. 

I think the Taxi change is because the need something to do with the extra dirt when they bury the power line going up Lift Line. 

The Haynes widening I believe so they can meet FIS requirements which we previously discussed here.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jul 22, 2011)

I like having a bit more room on Taxi – it can get tight in there with people hauling from Angel’s to Tram around those without enough speed, plus you got stopped gapers looking down (some even up) the trees, and then you can get people flying out of Del/Power. Haynes is what it is – I find myself skiing it less and less; good for early/late season, and perhaps after a thaw/freeze. Agree on Alligator, but will probably mean more people on that trail and perhaps more people taking lefts in to the trees. 

Sick Bird – I was going to write a comment on your blog about your McSkiing blurb, but it is tough to organize all my thoughts in the Summer. Cliffs Note verson of my response: no, yes, and I have no idea.  No being they are trying to design the expansion in an “authentic” and innovative way so it does not feel banal, and not change the image/vibe of Jay being a “skiers and skiing centric” mountain. Yes, in they have stated they are going to have to attract more skiers and real estate owners, the vast majority of which are going to want groomers and a significant variety of non-alpine activities – not going to be people who think a -15 wind chill on the Freezer is a “tropical breeze”. I have no idea being there are too many variables/scenarios on how Jay might develop, a few being whether EB will get extended/made permanent, “succession” plan if God forbid something happens tomorrow to Bill (since he is “key man”), and electric capacity.

This month there is actually what appears to be a critical vote on JPR electric capacity. Yeah file this under the all time most boring news category, but it could have major ramifications on the expansion. This past winter there was a major substation upgrade on 105 but apparently there are still capacity issues. I have not followed it closely, but supposedly there is a co-op vote on upgrading 17 miles of power lines in the Jay area (this is supposedly tied in with the Lowell Wind Turbines). Lowell Wind Turbines (another one I have not really followed) is a presumably struggling town near Jay sold their soul to put up a wind farm – IIRC 21 turbines on a ridge line and will eliminate everyone’s property taxes in the town; wait until they have to deal with the flicker (could make some go crazy). IIRC originally JPR was against Lowell (not sure if this has changed), presumably because of aesthetic sight lines issues (not sure how high up on the mountain before you would start seeing them). Some articles:

http://vtdigger.org/2011/07/17/vec-...-to-adopt-upgrade-for-kingdom-community-wind/

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=64974


----------



## kingdom-tele (Jul 22, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> I like having a bit more room on Taxi – it can get tight in there with people hauling from Angel’s to Tram around those without enough speed, plus you got stopped gapers looking down (some even up) the trees, and then you can get people flying out of Del/Power. Haynes is what it is – I find myself skiing it less and less; good for early/late season, and perhaps after a thaw/freeze. Agree on Alligator, but will probably mean more people on that trail and perhaps more people taking lefts in to the trees.
> 
> Sick Bird – I was going to write a comment on your blog about your McSkiing blurb, but it is tough to organize all my thoughts in the Summer. Cliffs Note verson of my response: no, yes, and I have no idea.  No being they are trying to design the expansion in an “authentic” and innovative way so it does not feel banal, and not change the image/vibe of Jay being a “skiers and skiing centric” mountain. Yes, in they have stated they are going to have to attract more skiers and real estate owners, the vast majority of which are going to want groomers and a significant variety of non-alpine activities – not going to be people who think a -15 wind chill on the Freezer is a “tropical breeze”. I have no idea being there are too many variables/scenarios on how Jay might develop, a few being whether EB will get extended/made permanent, “succession” plan if God forbid something happens tomorrow to Bill (since he is “key man”), and electric capacity.
> 
> ...



wow.  that was really informative.  is that how flatlanders view this area?

Lowell is like any other town up here, based on agriculture. If that means struggling to you then your right.

Jay is not against it now, they are supporting VEC members to pass the vote.  As it stands 4% of the generated power would be dished over to the Jay area.  The substation is getting overhauled either way -  its more economical if we vote yes - but reinforces the wind project and kingdom community wind

you will be able to see the towers from Jay once above 2800'.  You will also be able to see the towers in Sheffield that are going up now.

they shouldn't have any effect on snowfall as far as I know


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jul 22, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> .



Apologies for using the word “struggling”. Was not the best word choice – wrote it quickly; should have said something along the lines “like many communities in the NEK, Lowell is a town based on agriculture. Farming can oftentimes be a challenging livelihood from an economic standpoint, and oftentimes there are difficult choices to be made – such as whether to vote for a wind farm, which would reduce/eliminate one’s property tax.” 

Thanks for the info on JPR now supporting Lowell, and being able to see them above 2,800’.  You of anyone on this forum probably have the most insight on a lot of the JPR topics since you live in the area -- I mean this in a sincere way. 

Not familiar with the Sheffield towers. How many are going up, and how tall will the turbines be? What is the general sentiment in NEK about Lowell and Sheffield -- people in Lowell/Sheffield for it because of the economic benefits, others against it because of the sight line issues?



kingdom-tele said:


> they shouldn't have any effect on snowfall as far as I know


:lol:


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 22, 2011)

Isn't it a little late to be applying for permits for this summer? Especially ACT 250...


----------



## kingdom-tele (Jul 23, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Apologies for using the word “struggling”. Was not the best word choice – wrote it quickly; should have said something along the lines “like many communities in the NEK, Lowell is a town based on agriculture. Farming can oftentimes be a challenging livelihood from an economic standpoint, and oftentimes there are difficult choices to be made – such as whether to vote for a wind farm, which would reduce/eliminate one’s property tax.”
> 
> Thanks for the info on JPR now supporting Lowell, and being able to see them above 2,800’.  You of anyone on this forum probably have the most insight on a lot of the JPR topics since you live in the area -- I mean this in a sincere way.
> 
> ...



no worries.  just giving you shit :smile:

sheffield is getting 12 or 16, can't remember of the top of my head.  mostly because it doesn't bother me that they are putting in wind towers.  I can  understand the NO side of the vote though.  while struggling is certainly one adjective, adverse to change and passionate about maintaining the current land use (undeveloped) is another.  reality is Jay will be using 100% more power in the near future, a mllion dollars worth of propane a month, and god knows what else to realize their vision - low impact it is not.  it seems a little shady that GMP is trying to get support from the backdoor by committing money to the substation overhaul -  but then again its politics

as far as JPR - they built a rink, I skate every week, usually alone for $6 for 90-120 min, can't really complain.  my only gripe is the glass on the new waterpark gives off one hell of a reflection at sunrise, messes up my coffee drinking in the AM, but I'll adjust I think :grin:

size wise Lowell/kingdom community wind will have 425' towers, Sheffield I believe is 285'


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 23, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> no worries.  just giving you shit :smile:
> 
> sheffield is getting 12 or 16, can't remember of the top of my head.  mostly because it doesn't bother me that they are putting in wind towers.  I can  understand the NO side of the vote though.  while struggling is certainly one adjective, adverse to change and passionate about maintaining the current land use (undeveloped) is another.  reality is Jay will be using 100% more power in the near future, a mllion dollars worth of propane a month, and god knows what else to realize their vision - low impact it is not.  it seems a little shady that GMP is trying to get support from the backdoor by committing money to the substation overhaul -  but then again its politics
> 
> ...



Sheffield has (14, I think  ) pretty much the same 400+ footers that Lowell is going to have. 150' long blades.

Burke just put up one of these similar to the one on top of Bolton at 150' tall from the ground to tip of the blades at their highest position:

http://www.northernpower.com/wind-power-products/northern-power-arctic.php

http://www.boltonvalley.com/mountain/wind_turbine/

http://northernpower.kiosk-view.com/bolton-valley


----------



## kingdom-tele (Jul 24, 2011)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sheffield has (14, I think  ) pretty much the same 400+ footers that Lowell is going to have. 150' long blades.
> 
> Burke just put up one of these similar to the one on top of Bolton at 150' tall from the ground to tip of the blades at their highest position:
> 
> ...




thanks NEK.  

 listening to people up here the Lowell project is supposedly obscenely larger than the Sheffield project

is burke gonna hand out protective helmets for all the flying ice off the blades


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jul 24, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> reality is Jay will be using ... a mllion dollars worth of propane a month



 Granted so far that has really only been about 4 months out of the year, but w/ the new Hotel Jay/water park could make it closer to 12. No wonder why they now support Lowell!

That’s interesting about the water park reflection in the early morning, and I take it you have your coffee at your place in NC. Not sure how they would solve it – maybe some sort of light absorbent clear spray/glaze on the glass. 

Certainly will take some time getting used to the sight of all these 400’+ turbines, if they all go up in the NEK. I know noise has been a major issue (I think more so than flicker) with people living within a mile of some of the 400’+ turbines installed in MA (it might only be a specific model with the real bad issues with) -- shouldn't be a ton of people in Lowell/Sheff w/in a mile!

Too bad things fell through with the Rock Crushers and Jay, although stealing NAHA from Stowe was a major score. I am not in to skating, but went last year to JPR’s Halloween Haunted skate – we were surprised so many people turned out (probably a couple hundred), esp with the snow that night.

Have you heard anything recently on JPR’s Newport IGA site (where Bill wants to build the hotel; thought I heard they did some geotech last winter), and AnC (the Korean company run by Ariel’s brother-in-law that is supposed to be going in the Bogner building; thought I heard they were getting FDA approval and setting up a free trade zone)? 

If you see Fran (I know he has a home in NC) you might want to ask him if it is time to take down his “beef for sale” sign on 105 – I stopped there a couple summers ago to see what meat they had for a cookout, and the guy fixing one of the tractors (we chatted for 20 minutes) told me I had to drive down to Comstock to buy some.  I am hoping the new Thai restaurant in Newport is good – must be open by now; hopefully not too pricey.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Jul 25, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> Granted so far that has really only been about 4 months out of the year, but w/ the new Hotel Jay/water park could make it closer to 12. No wonder why they now support Lowell!
> 
> That’s interesting about the water park reflection in the early morning, and I take it you have your coffee at your place in NC. Not sure how they would solve it – maybe some sort of light absorbent clear spray/glaze on the glass.
> 
> ...



Honestly, I don't pay much attention to what J is up to so I have no idea about an IGA and only rumors about biotech company in the Bogner building.  I didn't even realize the rock crusher thing had fallen through.

Baan Thai is great.  Same chef that had Thaitanic.  Re opened with local support.  The interior design is great, the food is great, entree 9-15 bucks.  take out portions are noticeably larger than in house dining.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Jul 25, 2011)

Still a major skeptic on major wind projects.  If places like Burke want to do it on a private level then fine.  However many of these seem to be boondoggles that are being built for companies like First Wind who reap massive benefits from both the electricity, but more so from the large subsidies that it takes to make them possible.  I know many people in Maine are not happy with these things, but often poor or small towns and regions are prayed upon in the hopes of lease payments to individual property owners and tax and energy breaks for the towns in involved.  I would be lieing if I told you that I knew all there is to know about this, but reading up on wind developements really leaves an uneasy feeling in ones stomach.  I recently read that wind power is no more green then other forms of electrical generation we currently have.  I find it funny that environmetalists are often against such projects....granted I don't know what they would be happy with.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 26, 2011)

For those that didn't see this in the Burke thread, here is the current progress on the Sheffield wind farm. 5 towers with blades are up so far. This view is from the Burke mid-lodge.







Both sets of farms (Sheffield and Lowell) will be visible along the same view path west of Burke.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Jul 26, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> Baan Thai is great.  Same chef that had Thaitanic.  Re opened with local support.  The interior design is great, the food is great, entree 9-15 bucks.  take out portions are noticeably larger than in house dining.



Thanks, will definitely check it out.



from_the_NEK said:


> Sheffield has (14, I think  ) pretty much the same 400+ footers that Lowell is going to have. 150' long blades.



Thanks for the info and pics. Good general knowledge to have, as there are a few parts of Jay even <2,000’ where you will probably see the Sheff ones -- almost right in the Presies sight line.  

I agree that Burke’s is fairly unobtrusive. I like how they made their blades black – helps to hide it, granted they only put up a small turbine; kinda like the cell towers that are made to look like trees. I did not realize that you would see some of the Sheff ones from mid-Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2011)

Magog Fishy said:


> I agree that Burke’s is fairly unobtrusive. I like how they made their blades black – helps to hide it, granted they only put up a small turbine; kinda like the cell towers that are made to look like trees. I did not realize that you would see some of the Sheff ones from mid-Burke.


 
You can see the Sheffield Project from Newport on I-91!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 26, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> You can see the Sheffield Project from Newport on I-91!



You'll be able to see the Lowell ones even better once they are built.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 22, 2011)

Has anybody noticed this on Jay's website? Kinda neat.

http://newspin360.com/tour/vt/jay/


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 22, 2011)

To go along with the discussion above, here's a picture of the Sheffield wind towers from Burke with Jay Peak in the background.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Sep 22, 2011)

from_the_NEK said:


> Has anybody noticed this on Jay's website? Kinda neat.
> 
> http://newspin360.com/tour/vt/jay/



That's kind of cool but I couldn't watch the entire spin-o-rama without getting dizzy. Maybe next time I'm at the summit of Jay I'll put the camera on burst, spin around in my ski boots and see what happens.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 10, 2012)

If you like this thread, you will find this interesting:
http://jonnyjay.blogspot.com/2012/01/future-of-stateside-minutes-from.html


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 11, 2012)

I think Jay Peak will one day be the most awesome ghost town on the planet.


----------



## Smasandian (Jan 11, 2012)

Why?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 11, 2012)

^ Just that I dont visualize them hitting the occupancy quotas that a "non-free" hotel would have to carry to be financially successful.  Nor do I see the logic behind a gigantic water park in the far reaches of northern Vermont, and several other things.  What I see is exactly what I'd expect if you were given an orgy of "free money" per se.  But I do like JP alot, and wish them well, I just dont see the business development logic in much of this.

EDIT:  And I'm still wondering if that article is serious about the "outdoor amphitheater", or if that's supposed to be a joke?


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 11, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:  And I'm still wondering if that article is serious about the "outdoor amphitheater", or if that's supposed to be a joke?



My brother just reported what the planners said at the meeting, so it was serious. An outdoor amphitheatre could be as simple as sitting on the grass of Chalet Meadows, watching a band play on a portable stage, or, a replica of the Roman Coliseum.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 11, 2012)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> If you like this thread, you will find this interesting:
> http://jonnyjay.blogspot.com/2012/01/future-of-stateside-minutes-from.html



None of this seams to have changed from the plan posted in the Real Estate Office that I started this thread with.

Here is the development at Stateside:






Here is the new trail at Timbuktu:


----------



## Method9455 (Jan 11, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> ^ Just that I dont visualize them hitting the occupancy quotas that a "non-free" hotel would have to carry to be financially successful.  Nor do I see the logic behind a gigantic water park in the far reaches of northern Vermont, and several other things.  What I see is exactly what I'd expect if you were given an orgy of "free money" per se.  But I do like JP alot, and wish them well, I just dont see the business development logic in much of this.
> 
> EDIT:  And I'm still wondering if that article is serious about the "outdoor amphitheater", or if that's supposed to be a joke?



The far reaches of Vermont are far from NJ/NY, but not from MA, CT, and of course Montreal. A significant percentage of people at Jay are coming from places north of there.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 11, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> None of this seams to have changed from the plan posted in the Real Estate Office that I started this thread with.


Very true. It's just a lot more out in the open now. And far less conceptual-sounding.



JPTracker said:


> Here is the new trail at Timbuktu:



Hah. That trail already has a name, which I'm sure you know. It's just not on the map.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 11, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Here is the new trail at Timbuktu:



I'm still trying to figure out why they are running that "new" lift line the way they are. Why not just keep it all within UN? Cutting across to the Jet is going to leave the lift exposed and turn that whole area into a bigger ice sheet than it already is.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Jan 11, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why they are running that "new" lift line the way they are. Why not just keep it all within UN? Cutting across to the Jet is going to leave the lift exposed and turn that whole area into a bigger ice sheet than it already is.



the new JP plan, remove as many trees as possible,  guaranteed to make ski conditions as horrible as possible to quarantine people inside.

hoping they put in a nice arcade in the new lodge on stateside, maybe even have a few games that can simulate the experience of skiing through the woods

west bowl should be great when they over cut everything, it bakes off even faster rendering acres and acres into unskiable mank


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2012)

Looks like a former business partner of JPR's is not so happy with how the work is going and is throwing around vague accusations that JPR is not managing the EB-5 money as well as it should nor being as realistic about expectations as it should be:  

http://www.wcax.com/story/17116100/questions-about-jay-peaks-finances

Again, vague accusations.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2012)

^ Color me not surprised


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 2, 2012)

*New Master Plan (version 4)*

Bump. New master plan (they are calling it version 4) just posted as part of their State Side Lodge Act 250 application:

File will take awhile to load, as it is 5.5 mb:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-12/P13 - Concept Master Plan Version 4.pdf

Still sorting through everything. Notice the connector trail to the West Bowl that goes around BBP, and the new trail that starts from the top of the Bonnie and connects with Lower Milk Run. Lot of side-country glades (south facing) on the east side of the West Bowl.  I don't like the fact that they are contemplating screwing with Kitz, and of course the new trail next to Timbuktu that we have seen on prior plans.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 2, 2012)

WTF is up with condos off Ullr's and Kokomo. BARF.

The trail to Lower Milk looks good. They might need to rename that Upper Milk and rename Upper Milk to Spoiled Milk or Split Milk. I won't cry over that new line, looks good.

That new trail off Kitz is BLASPHEMOUS. Gah. W-T-F. We already knew about the also blasphemous intermediate trail skier's right of Timbuktu. Was hoping that they would come to their senses by this point but it is still there. Unreal. More WTF in the Angle's Wiggle/Hell's Crossing area. 

What the hell are they doing to Green Beret? We don't need more pointless islands and less trail integrity. 

I like the regen areas. Would like to see some regen glades but getting open trails less rocky and more grassy is a good thing. 

Lots of shoulders and turns being taken out and straightened out, all over the place. UGH.

West Bowl? Eh. It better be DAMNED GOOD since they are screwing with the main mountain so much. Even with all the foreign money, how on EARTH is JPR going to be able to afford four new lifts on top of the new six pack next year (maybe?) and the relo of the existing lifts? New lifts don't create full time year round jobs.

New triple doesn't go up high enough to be useful except for the Can Am park and to get back to Stateside. I was hoping for access to the trails off Taxi. That would have made a good lower mountain lift for windy days, still some good trails accessible from Taxi. But that is pretty much useless except to transfer to Tramside. I'd almost rather ride the T which is nice and quick if uncomfortable.

I don't like it. I shrugged my shoulders at the water park but I can't shrug my shoulders at massive trail changes including chopping down tree shots and widening existing trails.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> WTF is up with condos off Ullr's and Kokomo. BARF.
> 
> .



that's the only part of the project that really bothers me, just because it would suck to come out Beaver Pond / Andres and be greeted by a wall of condos.

Everything else seems in line with what they're trying to build Jay into; a 500K skier visit major resort drawing wealthy second home buyers from Boston and Montreal.


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> New triple doesn't go up high enough to be useful except for the Can Am park and to get back to Stateside. I was hoping for access to the trails off Taxi. That would have made a good lower mountain lift for windy days, still some good trails accessible from Taxi. But that is pretty much useless except to transfer to Tramside. I'd almost rather ride the T which is nice and quick if uncomfortable.



Looks like it's a quad now, guess they don't think the Jet is worth moving.  At least not for that.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 2, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Looks like it's a quad now, guess they don't think the Jet is worth moving.  At least not for that.


That is strange, the Jet is marked as a Quad. So if that novice transfer lift is also a quad, what are they doing with the Jet? Perhaps they will have extra chairs from the Bonnie since the Jet is shorter than the Bonnie and they will split them up? They still need towers and a drive for that novice transfer lift, I don't know if the current Jet drive or tower would accommodate quads.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 2, 2012)

Awww... come on! Why do they have to make the evil condos! 


By next winter I was really hoping that they got their act togethor and installed the Bonnie 6-pack (I think it could be named the "Power-line 6-Pack") and replaced jet with old bonnie and Jet moved to taxi.

But no, they probably will decide to build other things instead.

Whatever, there's nothing I can do--and it won't top me from going to Jay!!

EDIT: That is odd that the lift to taxi is a quad. Is there really that much traffic to support it?


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 2, 2012)

gregnye said:


> Awww... come on! Why do they have to make the evil condos!
> 
> 
> By next winter I was really hoping that they got their act togethor and installed the Bonnie 6-pack (I think it could be named the "Power-line 6-Pack") and replaced jet with old bonnie and Jet moved to taxi.
> ...



The permit that this plan was submitted as part of is only for three condo buildings. I believe that they still plan to do the lifts this summer. They are currently in the way of the Stateside development and have to be moved before they can proceed with that.

Hope to get answers to most of these questions at our annual Homeowners meeting in June.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> WTF is up with condos off Ullr's and Kokomo. BARF.


I tend to agree but doubt this will appear in my lifetime at least. Not that that makes it any better. It would be quite drive up to that condo on a snow day!



riverc0il said:


> The trail to Lower Milk looks good.


Lower Milk is one of the great under-appreciated trails at JP. It would be good to see it get a little more love and have a logical entry via this new trail. My "whole milk" run is a bit contrived (FYI, this is Green Beret to Upper Milk to Lower Milk).



riverc0il said:


> That new trail off Kitz is BLASPHEMOUS. Gah. W-T-F.


Well, you're right, there are some nice trees in there. On the other hand, the proposed line would make Kitz a more sustained, logical run. The current flattish side-hill runout after the steep pitch is pretty stupid IMHO.



riverc0il said:


> We already knew about the also blasphemous intermediate trail skier's right of Timbuktu. Was hoping that they would come to their senses by this point but it is still there. Unreal. More WTF in the Angle's Wiggle/Hell's Crossing area.


Agreed. They might as well have just have called it Corona on the new map.



riverc0il said:


> More WTF in the Angle's Wiggle/Hell's Crossing area.


I don't know, it would be nice to have an alternative to the Angel's Wiggle shitshow. That proposed trail seems to follow an old line that you can see on Google Earth and in real life if you go in there. It could still leave the nice little tree shot on skier's right but give better skiers an option for avoiding the sliding gapers on AW.



riverc0il said:


> What the hell are they doing to Green Beret? We don't need more pointless islands and less trail integrity.


GB has opened up a lot in the last few years. This map acknowledges that and to my mind, does not propose anything radically different. Except for the alternate exit. Remember, it is only a map, drawn by a mapmaker, and still a concept. I will reserve judgement on this.



riverc0il said:


> I like the regen areas. Would like to see some regen glades but getting open trails less rocky and more grassy is a good thing.
> 
> Lots of shoulders and turns being taken out and straightened out, all over the place. UGH.


Can't argue with that. Some things should just be left alone.



riverc0il said:


> West Bowl? Eh. It better be DAMNED GOOD since they are screwing with the main mountain so much. Even with all the foreign money, how on EARTH is JPR going to be able to afford four new lifts on top of the new six pack next year (maybe?) and the relo of the existing lifts? New lifts don't create full time year round jobs.


How many lifties can lift shack hold, if a lift shack could hold lifties? Money does not seem to a problem here: Or as Freddie sang: "Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? Caught in a landslide. No escape from reality. Open your eyes. Look up to the skies and see. "



riverc0il said:


> New triple doesn't go up high enough to be useful except for the Can Am park and to get back to Stateside. I was hoping for access to the trails off Taxi. That would have made a good lower mountain lift for windy days, still some good trails accessible from Taxi. But that is pretty much useless except to transfer to Tramside. I'd almost rather ride the T which is nice and quick if uncomfortable.



This proposed chair roughly follows the line of the original Stateside t-bar from back in the day. This alignment will breath new life into the little group of trails like Rabbit, Kangaroo, Paradise Meadows, Boulevard and Sweetheart, which are now largely forgotten. These are really fun easy trails, so will re-open up a world of novice skiing on Stateside and the new lift will still give easy access to Tramside.



riverc0il said:


> I don't like it. I shrugged my shoulders at the water park but I can't shrug my shoulders at massive trail changes including chopping down tree shots and widening existing trails.


I can see why you don't like it. I have some issues with it (Corona, especially) but see more positives. The trail map of Jay is not like other hills and there are vast blank spots that don't make sense. To me, this proposal addresses that, if not perfectly. It will be interesting to see what really happens. We will all still ski there, I imagine.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 2, 2012)

It is at least comforting to know that before I started skiing Jay Peak, there probably were other folks that got upset about changes happening that I probably enjoy. 

SBR... did you notice the other alterations to Green Beret above the alt entrance? Just because a trail has changed over the years, I don't think that is a reason to keep widening it and cutting down more trees around it.

I'm sure a lot of the things on this plan won't happen or will happen a lot more gradually than many of the changes we've seen in the past two years.

No doubt on the novice trail, I just wish it went a bit higher so it might access a little more than novice trails. I'm not sure that is a great area for a "novice pod". Those flat run outs are narrow and have a lot of skiers wizzing back to the lift a mach schnell. Metro Quad already seems to service nice novice terrain. I guess with the Stateside Hotel and all the new condos, it does make sense to have a novice pod on both sides of the mountain and it will be a nice treat for novices to move around.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> SBR... did you notice the other alterations to Green Beret above the alt entrance? Just because a trail has changed over the years, I don't think that is a reason to keep widening it and cutting down more trees around it.



Call me crazy but I wouldn't get too stressed about that. I think the mapmaker is simply looking at an aerial photo, or more likely Google Earth, and drawing what they see now. That big gap skier right of the first pitch would show up now as an open area with islands. Given all the $ potentially spent on other trail development/realignment, i would think it is safe to say that green beret is low on the priority list. Funny that Pumphouse does not show up on this map, given what and obvious line it now is, and how much cutting has been done there.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 3, 2012)

Skiing down Kokomo and seeing a bunch of condos is going to be weird. I understand why they are doing it – there are a lot of wetlands at the base of West Bowl, which will impede real estate development – but will still be weird. Yeah the drive-up to some of those condos during a snowstorm will be hairy, and will certainly be years before they are all built – IIRC the 300 new EB5 units (THL, Hotel Jay, Golf Course cottages) can be sold by the investors after I believe 5 years, which should mean a lot of units coming on the market.


riverc0il said:


> What the hell are they doing to Green Beret? We don't need more pointless islands and less trail integrity.


It looks like there might be an error on the map – looks like the map person left an old layer on the CAD file.


riverc0il said:


> West Bowl? Eh. It better be DAMNED GOOD since they are screwing with the main mountain so much. Even with all the foreign money, how on EARTH is JPR going to be able to afford four new lifts on top of the new six pack next year (maybe?) and the relo of the existing lifts? New lifts don't create full time year round jobs.


This recent Jay video suggests a lot about their belief that they need more intermediate terrain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ysvqJDLU8k&feature=relmfu The new BC opportunity might be worth the other pain – not going to discuss on a public forum, although people will figure it out. They got a financial machine going -- should still be able to pull it off financially, even with their recent Rapid divorce as long as EB is extended. Snow making water permits might be the biggest issue of all, although they are working on them behind the scene. 


riverc0il said:


> That is strange, the Jet is marked as a Quad. So if that novice transfer lift is also a quad, what are they doing with the Jet? Perhaps they will have extra chairs from the Bonnie since the Jet is shorter than the Bonnie and they will split them up? They still need towers and a drive for that novice transfer lift, I don't know if the current Jet drive or tower would accommodate quads.


Yeah, not sure WTF is going on there. 

Anyways major kudos to Jay for making snow last week and staying open. Hoping to get a few more days of skiing in, and hopefully Mother Nature will show up with a nice late season storm.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> That is strange, the Jet is marked as a Quad. So if that novice transfer lift is also a quad, what are they doing with the Jet? Perhaps they will have extra chairs from the Bonnie since the Jet is shorter than the Bonnie and they will split them up? They still need towers and a drive for that novice transfer lift, I don't know if the current Jet drive or tower would accommodate quads.



Let me first say :-o:-o:-o to this incredibly ambitious plan.

On the note of the Jet triple. I would venture a guess that as Jay continue advance its image with big shiney new things, they don't want an old, slow, and "ugly" triple chair outside the windows of their fancy new Stateside lodge. Instead, they spring for a short new(er) nicer looking quad to put there. That extra capacity will be nice when everything on the upper mtn is on hold.

Meanwhile, the Jet triple gets put into storage and pulled out again when the West Bowl starts to take shape. The transfer lift "H" between the West Bowl lodge and Harmony Lane would be a perfect place to rebuild the old triple. It doesn't need to be fast and it doesn't need to be pretty. The added bonus is that new lift line would be almost identical in length to the current Jet lift line which means 1/2 of the lift components wouldn't end up in the scrap heap.

This plan is likely more cost effective since they would be buying a new 1,980 ft lift instead of a 3,150 ft one.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it was at the season pass holders party that I heard Bill Stenger make a comment that he was about to sign the contracts for both lifts. Never got a chance to ask him what he meant by "Both Lifts" and didn't think much of it. Maybe there will be two new lifts.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2012)

The sheer number of yellow buildings on this plan is amazing (and IMHO not in a good way).

The entire road network between the base areas a Route 242 is completely realligned as well. State Side and Tram Side each have their own separate entrances.

Looking at that area of houses and condos surrounding the new access roads, they are going to have to run a shuttle bus system around in there.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2012)

Once this is built out, it will be approx 2.6 miles from boundary to boundary.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 3, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> The sheer number of yellow buildings on this plan is amazing (and IMHO not in a good way).
> 
> The entire road network between the base areas a Route 242 is completely realligned as well. State Side and Tram Side each have their own separate entrances.
> 
> Looking at that area of houses and condos surrounding the new access roads, they are going to have to run a shuttle bus system around in there.



Or build a subway!!


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 3, 2012)

Interesting comments made at the last Jay Planning Commission and Zoning Board.

From the minutes of the March 12, 2012 meeting:



> 8.	Mr. Elander presented a new master plan map. Mr. Elander and Mr. Moore reviewed it with the board and answered questions about the plan. They stated their *next projects for permitting are, the Lodge and Townhouse project, the renovation of the Australia house*, and *a new mountain learning center*. He said this will change the resort wide Planned Unit Development map and he will submit a new map to the board.



I assume the Lodge is the Stateside lodge and the Townhouse project is the one the just submitted the permit for. Is the Mountain Learning Center part of Stateside?

Can't wait for the Australia House, the original Tram base lodge, to be renovated. It is an embarrassment compared to everything else now.



> 9.	Mr. Kapeluck questioned Mr. Elander about the plan for resort wide parking. He stated he feels the parking is a problem and he feels this is a safety issue. Mr. Elander said they have plans to build another parking garage and the EB 5 program will fund it. The do not currently know where it will be located but it is on the top of their list of things to fix



I don't see any parking garage on the Master Plan. I hope they don't do this. The one they already built is the biggest eyesore of everything they have built so far. Or at least put it somewhere or build it such that it can't be seen so easy.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 3, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> The sheer number of yellow buildings on this plan is amazing (and IMHO not in a good way).
> 
> The entire road network between the base areas a Route 242 is completely realligned as well. State Side and Tram Side each have their own separate entrances.
> 
> Looking at that area of houses and condos surrounding the new access roads, they are going to have to run a shuttle bus system around in there.


If they eventually do fully build out to this plan, it could be bigger than Sugarloaf. With the addition of West Bowl, the terrain absolutely will be bigger than the Loaf and the bed base would just be simply massive. This could be the most on mountain bed base in New England if fully built. :-o

I'm all for Tramside and Stateside having two different entrances. It really sucked when they closed the shortcut to Tramside and made everyone go in the main entrance. That has to be an extra and worthless 1+ mile round trip up and around for folks coming up Jay side.


----------



## Magog Fishy (Apr 3, 2012)

The yellow buildings might denote what is already funded by the EB $. I think something like 70 or 75 more of the golf cottages are going in this summer alone, but not sure if the new admin bldg is going up this summer plus Sky Haus renovation/restaurant. I think the new Tram Side access road might be going in this summer also.  Also the lifts. Thought I also heard there is going to be a grocery store Tram Side -- think it is going to be fairly small; anybody know if it is going to be in a renovated Austria Haus? Also, not sure what is happening with the Snowline. Too much going on to keep track of! Going to be a busy summer for them! Oh yeah, then there is Tram Side parking garage #2.

IIRC (I'm 99% sure I do) Bill has publicly state in the past that he wants to be the second largest ski area in Vertmont, after Killington. Don't think they will get there with the terrain acreage (although if you count all the SC/BC, they might), since they don't really have lift-served terrain expansion options after West Bowl is built...well I should say it is unlikely they would.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 3, 2012)

Not sure I agree with the comment that Jay will be bigger than the Loaf.  Sugarloaf proper is about double the size of Jay as is, never mind factoring in the terrain over on Burnt Mountain.  It will certainly be large though.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2012)

Amazing how the timing has worked so well for Bill Stenger.  Get rid of MSSI, get EB-5 money before the program got hot, and really make something of the place.  To his credit though he has been at JPR for 30 or so years.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Not sure I agree with the comment that Jay will be bigger than the Loaf.  Sugarloaf proper is about double the size of Jay as is, never mind factoring in the terrain over on Burnt Mountain.  It will certainly be large though.


I'm factoring in all skiable terrain. With the Loaf, if trees aren't cut, it ain't skiable. Whereas with Jay, you have skiable terrain between essentially every trail on the mountain and well beyond its boarders with considerable side country. Maybe that is not a fair comparison, but Burnt isn't going to be all accessible by a lift either and who knows how much will actually get cut. 

Jay's "go anywhere" woods makes it ski pretty massive to me. I did a three day trip there with a group two years ago. Even after three days, we still hadn't skied half of what is available. Add in West Bowl and all the possible tree skiing over there and then you have West all the way to the D off 242 and Big J, that is pretty damn expansive.


----------



## bigbog (Apr 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> that's the only part of the project that really bothers me, just because it would suck to come out Beaver Pond / Andres and be greeted by a wall of condos.
> 
> Everything else seems in line with what they're trying to build Jay into; a 500K skier visit major resort drawing wealthy second home buyers from Boston and Montreal.



Whatever it takes for mo $$$ before the owners turn 50.  Condos are the name of the game these days......
A trip to a resort these days is such an aesthetic trip....:roll:


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Apr 4, 2012)

Im just gonna sit at my slopeside condo and wait for all this to transpire...

One thing I will say is they have done a great job over the last two years implementing these growth changes. They made my life alot easier as far as putting trips together. They do have a way to go but they do still hold onto the basis of low key as compared to some other resorts. Their waterpark is a great addition to the package. But the place is coming along, stenger's the man bottom line lol...

Now if they could only get a real pizza shop I would be happy lol....I miss the old one lol...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2012)

Mpdsnowman said:


> Now* if they could only get a real pizza shop I would be happy* lol...



Jay Peak doesnt sell pizza.  




deadheadskier said:


> that's the only part of the project that really bothers me, just because it would suck to come out Beaver Pond / Andres and be greeted by a wall of condos.
> 
> Everything else seems in line with* what they're trying to build Jay into; a 500K skier visit major resort drawing wealthy second home buyers from Boston and Montreal*.



Oh, you mean the type of gigantic and ultra-modern place that I drive up to northern Vermont to avoid?   Good ta' know.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 4, 2012)

Mpdsnowman said:


> One thing I will say is they have done a great job over the last two years implementing these growth changes. They made my life alot easier as far as putting trips together. They do have a way to go but they do still hold onto the basis of low key as compared to some other resorts. Their waterpark is a great addition to the package. But the place is coming along, stenger's the man bottom line lol...




 "low key" is a pretty broad descriptor.

$650 adult
$189 5 and under
looking forward to $60 day pass VT rates

really coming along


----------



## RENO (Apr 4, 2012)

Mpdsnowman said:


> Im just gonna sit at my slopeside condo and wait for all this to transpire...
> 
> One thing I will say is they have done a great job over the last two years implementing these growth changes. They made my life alot easier as far as putting trips together. They do have a way to go but they do still hold onto the basis of low key as compared to some other resorts. Their waterpark is a great addition to the package. But the place is coming along, stenger's the man bottom line lol...
> 
> Now if they could only get a real pizza shop I would be happy lol....I miss the old one lol...



Can't beat that location! Wish we were closer to Jay Peak. We would definitely hit there more often. There's definitely not a lot of good pizza places in VT. Where I live in Central NJ we have a great pizza place practically on every corner! :lol:


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Apr 4, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> "low key" is a pretty broad descriptor.
> 
> $650 adult
> $189 5 and under
> ...



By low key I mean atmosphere not pricing...I put on trips around the country at many resorts..Jay peak, powder mt, UT those are low key resorts...Places like Stowe, Killington, VT or steamboat CO are more touristy places...

$60.00 is not alot for a day pass..and honestly who pays for a day pass, you can always get deals....especially at jay...

I have not paid more than $35.00 per day to ride at jay peak..


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 4, 2012)

Mpdsnowman said:


> By low key I mean atmosphere not pricing...I put on trips around the country at many resorts..Jay peak, powder mt, UT those are low key resorts...Places like Stowe, Killington, VT or steamboat CO are *more touristy places...*
> 
> $60.00 is not alot for a day pass..and honestly who pays for a day pass, you can always get deals....especially at jay...
> 
> I have not paid more than $35.00 per day to ride at jay peak..



the irony is terrific.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2012)

I would relate the size to Sunday River more than Sugarloaf. Sugarloaf is always going to own Jay on vertical size. However, in reality Sugarloaf is fairly compact 2.2 miles side to side (including the hike to Burnt Mtn and NOT including that double chair that goes down to the golf course). Sugaloaf also only has a single base area.

Sunday River has multiple base areas and is over 3 miles end to end but has limited side country.

Neither have the developed side country access Jay has. The limited open trail development in Jay's West Bowl is going to leave A LOT of lift served options for marked glade trails and natural tree skiing.
I would add that this also really opens up the extra side country options off North Jay down to Route 105.

Sugarloaf:





Jay:





Sunday River:


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> the irony is terrific.



:razz: :beer:
Jay is not going to feel non-touristy when this is all done. 
The goal of all of this development is to turn it into a destination resort... FOR TOURISTS.
(captain obvious being obvious)


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 4, 2012)

Regarding side country access at Sugarloaf; I think there's a lot of stuff that most people are unaware of.  As an example, I found out this past weekend that some of the best skiing on the Mountain is actually off the west side of the mountain heading down to Caribou Pond road.  Similar situation to 242 at Jay.  Of course unlike Jay, Sugarloaf didn't get the snow this winter to make most of that terrain skiable.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Regarding side country access at Sugarloaf; I think there's a lot of stuff that most people are unaware of.  As an example, I found out this past weekend that some of the best skiing on the Mountain is actually off the west side of the mountain heading down to Caribou Pond road.  Similar situation to 242 at Jay.  Of course unlike Jay, Sugarloaf didn't get the snow this winter to make most of that terrain skiable.



Every hill in the NE is this way.  Some just market the obvious a little more than others. some even cut trails for its access.

kudos to J though, from a business perspective it really seems to be thriving, I would have expected some financial catastrophe by now per the NEK norm.

nice pics NEK, thanks for the comparison.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2012)

One thing about the West Bowl has me scratching my head a bit. Why are there two lifts unloading just below Doll Peak? A single lift would be able to serve this entire area (HSQ or more likely HS6). Reallign slightly to start where the "J" lift bottom station is and end it at the top of Lift "K".


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2012)

Looks like the new Jet lift will stay in the same path as it follows now.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 4, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak doesnt sell pizza.


Is this some kinda joke? The pizza shop used to be under the tram. When they put in the Tram Lodge, pizza got moved to the International Room. Now there is a pizza shop in the new Hotel Jay (Mountain Dick's or something like that).


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm also puzzled by the dual lift for Doll. One lift would hit all of the terrain. But I guess they need more uphill capacity for all the new visits they are gonna have......


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2012)

Playing in Google Earth:

West Bowl from the top of the Flyer...







From the north end of Gilpin Mtn.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 4, 2012)

The drawn out rendering above is so cool!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2012)

One more.

From the Flyer - Goat intersection


----------



## gregnye (Apr 4, 2012)

QUOTE: "8. Mr. Elander presented a new master plan map. Mr. Elander and Mr. Moore reviewed it with the board and answered questions about the plan. They stated their next projects for permitting are, the Lodge and Townhouse project, the renovation of the Australia house, and a new mountain learning center. He said this will change the resort wide Planned Unit Development map and he will submit a new map to the board." END QUOTE


So, is the lift re-arrangement still planned for this summer? From these meeting minutes, it seems like they want to rebuild the lodge first.

Oh, come on, All I personally want for next year is the lift upgrade--that bonnie chair seems to always be slower every time I ride it! (much slower than the Jet--has anyone timed it?)

However, that chair can be a blessing when the flyer is on wind-hold. 

Which brings up another question: What were the final results of wind--measuring on the new "Powerline" 6-pack liftline? Is it windy by Saint George's prayer? Hopefully the lift to Saint George will be a Saintly blessing, not a curse! :lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2012)

A good article on JPR and the EB-5 program and an explanation as to the recent break-up with their EB-5 investor locator:  

http://www.7dvt.com/2012vermont-eb-5-visas


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 4, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Is this some kinda joke? The pizza shop used to be under the tram. When they put in the Tram Lodge, pizza got moved to the International Room. Now there is a pizza shop in the new Hotel Jay (Mountain Dick's or something like that).



Vermont pizza is just comparable to nyc pizzas, i think they can make it better with english bread and mozzarella and pasta sauce, some bad pizza up their, sorry but that's the truth.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 4, 2012)

NEK- nice work. its a pretty short steep section under Doll, typical J topography. I nice quick pitch and a nice long run out to think about how fun those 30 sec of pitch were :razz:

you guys are comical, a pretty indicative of the shift they are looking for I suppose, concerned about pizza and lift speeds.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 4, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> A good article on JPR and the EB-5 program and an explanation as to the recent break-up with their EB-5 investor locator:
> 
> http://www.7dvt.com/2012vermont-eb-5-visas



That is a VERY interesting article. I've had too much wine to make an intelligent comment at the moment. 

Kudos to NEK for the mapping, that is very cool. I don't get the two lifts either, maybe there is something we are missing. And woo hoo, JFK to Ullr's again. But the trees could be awesome on the right day.

You know, in 40years of skiing at Jay I have never eaten pizza there. Stateside Calm Chowder FTW!


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 4, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Vermont pizza is just comparable to nyc pizzas, i think they can make it better with english bread and mozzarella and pasta sauce, some bad pizza up their, sorry but that's the truth.



The pizza at Jay Peak base lodge doesn't really represent the entire state.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> *Is this some kinda joke?* The pizza shop used to be under the tram. When they put in the Tram Lodge, pizza got moved to the International Room. Now there is a pizza shop in the new Hotel Jay (Mountain Dick's or something like that).



Both yes, and no.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Vermont pizza is just comparable to nyc pizzas, i think they can make it better with english bread and mozzarella and pasta sauce, some bad pizza up their, sorry but that's the truth.



Pizza in not only Vermont, but New England in general is utter garbage for the most part.  I know New Haven has some famous pizza places and you've got some decent ones in Boston such as Posto and Santarpio's, but overall for every 1 great pizza place in New England, there are 9 decent ones and 90 garbage ones.  There's that saying, "Pizza is like sex, even when it's bad, it's still pretty good."  If by "pretty good" the saying means, "edible" than yes, I agree.  Shitty pizza is still a major disappointment in my book.

The biggest reason most pizza sucks is using cheap flour for the dough and not having good ovens.  At minimum, "0" flour is good for pizza dough, but "00" flour is really what you want.  Most places use cheap A/P flour, not even a decent bread flour. The dough is supposed to be the cheapest ingredient of the pie. It's also the most important part of the pie IMO.  You can have great sauce and fresh creative toppings, but if the dough sucks, you are wasting your time.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 5, 2012)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> That is a VERY interesting article


Yes, that was actually some fine reporting right there, very well done.



> Stenger disputes the allegations and provided documentation showing that sales for the season are up 38 percent — or $5.7 million — over last year’s, despite the mild weather.





> In his cluttered office inside a rickety, old, faux-Swiss chalet, Stenger pulls out a stack of records showing that during a peak week in 2005, he had 385 workers on staff — many seasonal — and doled out $142,500 in payroll. During the same week this year, 877 workers were employed and payroll reached $751,000.


It is hard to judge based on one peek weekend, but I don't know if a 38% increase is sales (sales mind you, not profit after other non-labor costs) is sustainable enough to cover a 425% increase in labor. It would be interesting to get the seasonal/part time versus full time break down as well, I think it is safe to assume the majority of labor dollars during a peak week are not full time. I was stunned when I heard the sales increase a while back, I equally stunned at that labor figure. That could be why the EB-5 firm went hostile on Jay.



> To ensure that each of those who invested at least $500,000 in his enterprise receives a green card, Stenger will eventually have to show that the expansion *created 5000 jobs*. That figure can include jobs outside the company payroll; indirect jobs created through construction or the increased use of neighboring services also count.
> 
> Despite the government’s role in securing investors by providing them visas, neither those analyses nor any other reports about the projects are available to the public. *That means “job creation can be claimed via an economist’s report, not a head count*,” says Oder, the Atlantic Yards watchdog.
> 
> To Stenger, who provided reports indicating that *Jay Peak’s expansion has created 2820 direct or indirect jobs thus far*, the proof is in the pudding.


I'm having a hard time imagining 5000 new jobs created any where in the NEK (including indirect or otherwise), even considering Jay's massive build up plans. Can anyone report any other business development in Jay, Montgomery, Troy, or Newport indirectly related to Jay's development? 2820 new jobs so far? Where are all those people living? Could there have been that many unemployed that needed jobs? Is Bill counting temporary/seasonal increased that don't actually count towards EB-5 standards? The numbers in this article really scratch my head.

I don't know how any one could be against this program unless your an uber extreme socialist that fundamentally believes everyone should be economically equal despite the fact that that restricts development and tech progress. But I also can see the challenges in measuring the success of these programs and businesses taking advantage of the program and not producing results. Since the costs of failure are borne out by the investors, it doesn't seem like the benefiting businesses have enough skin in the job creation game. Not saying Jay Peak isn't getting it done but just an overall comment about the program. I'd love to see more reporting on the job creation side of things and not from the resort's perspective but from the downtown perspective.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2012)

Re: Job Creation.  I think that they use a pretty large radius.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2012)

Had few minutes today to draw this up better:

West Bowl from the snowmaking Pond -






From The Knob -





From the 14th Fairway -





From above:


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 6, 2012)

Just a few thoughts from a purely 'skiing experience' point of view:

-The new trail in the orchard is one sure way to alienate many of Jay's hardcore wood skiers.  This has been said numerous time in various forums.  Don't they listen ?   This will not improve the intermediate skier's experience significantly (the upper part as a similar gradient to the jet) at the expense of condemning prime woods skiiing.

- Building condos between kokomo and Ull'rs dream is another strange (at best) idea.  This is one skiing area with incredible appeal to kids.  There is plenty of space to build condos without infringing on good skiing areas.

- Not sure about the new trail in canyonland and how much it will use the existing gladed area.  

- They should definitely extend the new triple (old repositioned jet chair) all the way to Taxi to give the option of reaching Bucks Woods just below the official entrance.  This is the only action when going back to Tramside.  Otherwise you are stuck wih Queen's highway.

Now for the good stuff:

- the traverse toward the West bowl is now positioned at the top of Beaver and Andre's instead of a little bit  which is better than nothing. 

-This traverse, as well as the lengthening of the collector below Andre's and Beaver will open up some good backcountry options.

- the size of the gladed areas in the west bowl is fantastic.  Lots of powder opportunities on snowy days.

- Nobody has mentioned this, but the entrance to the West Bowl glades G5 and G6 are located significntly above the top of Chair L2 (at least 100ft higher).  If this is not a mistake, I love the idea of giving relatively easy access to anyone willing to skin or hike for 15 minutes.  In particular, the top of G6 is very steep and could  easily become a signature glade.  Skiing this glade would likely be worth the traverse and the awkward chair lift out of the west bowl.  

Overall, the west bowl seems very promising.  If they could only get rid of that stupid run through the Orchard, all would be fine.

Francois


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 27, 2012)

Because of the lousy winter this year only one new lift will be going in this summer. A new fixed grip quad will be going in along side of the terrain park to replace the t-bar, per the plans previously posted. The new six pack and relocating the Bonnie has been put off a year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Because of the lousy winter this year only one new lift will be going in this summer. A new fixed grip quad will be going in along side of the terrain park to replace the t-bar, per the plans previously posted. The new six pack and relocating the Bonnie has been put off a year.



Interesting......


----------



## gregnye (Apr 27, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Because of the lousy winter this year only one new lift will be going in this summer. A new fixed grip quad will be going in along side of the terrain park to replace the t-bar, per the plans previously posted. The new six pack and relocating the Bonnie has been put off a year.



GRRR!!! I would have made the Bonnie replacement a priority before the terrain park chair!

Oh well, at least there will be more to do on the wind hold powder days!


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 27, 2012)

gregnye said:


> GRRR!!! I would have made the Bonnie replacement a priority before the terrain park chair!
> 
> Oh well, at least there will be more to do on the wind hold powder days!



They are putting in this chair because the tbar is down for the count and instead of spending money to fix it it makes more sense to replace it.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 27, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> They are putting in this chair because the tbar is down for the count and instead of spending money to fix it it makes more sense to replace it.



Good point.  I totally forgot about the T-bar being broken. The order of this replacement now makes much more sense.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 27, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Because of the lousy winter this year only one new lift will be going in this summer. A new fixed grip quad will be going in along side of the terrain park to replace the t-bar, per the plans previously posted. The new six pack and relocating the Bonnie has been put off a year.


Fine with me.

Though this certainly puts that big sales increase everyone in Jay management is talking about in perspective. They probably didn't make their bottom line goal this year by a long shot after expenses.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> They are putting in this chair because the tbar is down for the count and instead of spending money to fix it it makes more sense to replace it.



That lift must be pushing 40 years old or so.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Apr 28, 2012)

Color me unimpressed with this whole plan from a pure skiing perspective.  We hear all the time from Steve Wright and Co how they will never lose the soul that made Jay great while undergoing this modernization.   With this newest plan, I just don't see it.  And for me, it continues a pretty long track record of lousy mtn ops decisions by Bill Stenger, his commitment to gladed skiing notwithstanding.

 - Can Am trail: complete disaster from a skiing and ecological perspective
 - GM Freezer: made his patrons endure several minutes of he most brutal ride in New England solely to provide chair access to Ullr'sDream?  Was that really worth it?   Should have topped out at the 2nd tram tower and it would have provided access to everything except Ullr's but with a shorter, more wind protected ride
- Extensive trail widening in the works: is this really in keeping with what made Jay great?  It's certainly in keeping with what made a lot of resorts lousy.
- West Bowl layout: Does anyone like transfer lifts?  Lousy idea.  The two main lifts don't seem to go to their respective peaks and seem strangely close together.
- Terrain park quad: throwing away a great opportunity to provide decent intermediate access on the lower mtn during storm days.

I'll hand it to Stenger for being at the forefront of the EB-5 movement and fundamentally transforming Jay as a business enterprise.  But the glading stuff was a no-brainer given the snowfall they get and the fact that he just brought on map what locals had been doing for years.  That's like giving the Saudis credit for building an oil industry.  Any time he actually has to come up with an original idea for the mtn, it's a lousy one.  If he had one of the incompetents running K-Mart's marketing dept instead of the well-respected Steve Wright, he'd be getting a lot more flack, and deservedly so.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 28, 2012)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If he had one of the incompetents running K-Mart's marketing dept instead of the well-respected Steve Wright...



:lol:

That irony aside, for all the bad decisions you say have been made, Jay is one of the greatest mountains for tree skiing and powder skiing in the east and has a much better vibe than many other VT mountains despite the resort build up. There is a lot of room for criticism over the years, lots of bad decisions. But Jay is still an awesome place despite those decisions.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 29, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Because of the lousy winter this year only one new lift will be going in this summer. A new fixed grip quad will be going in along side of the terrain park to replace the t-bar, per the plans previously posted. The new six pack and relocating the Bonnie has been put off a year.



So--a completely new lift! Gotta give it a completely new name! 

 I could see the new bonnie 6-passenger chair named the "Powerline 6-pack" or perhaps just the "Bonnie express" but I can't think of a good name for this terrain park quad.

What do you think the name should be?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2012)

The new lift is interesting because wasn't the original plan to reuse the Jet for that lift?  Guess not now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2012)

And re: the "bad decision" post by Tinny:

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback or an armchair resort operator, and we all do it.  But the truth is I see and hear a lot of good things about JPR and what they have done.  Yeah we all don't the expansion, but honestly folks, they have had plans for 20 or 30 years and it comes as no surprise.  

Some specific points:  trail widening.  That was done in the 1980's when everyone else, Killington, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, and Sugarbush included, were doing it.   Doesn't make it right, but snowmaking, grooming, and handling traffic demanded it.  

As to the new trail widening plans, I thought that the last plan was not so bad?  

GMF:  I do agree that it is not a good idea with the winds and weather.  But it made sense to get people as spread out to the underutilized terrain as possible.  It looks good on paper.  If they had ended it where the former GM Double ended then those trails were just get scraped down even faster.  So it's a Catch 22.  

West Bowl:  not sure why the connector lift, but may have to do with the topography they are working with.  As to why not all the way to the top, might have to do with the fact that the land borders the LT and their ROW/Conservation Easement might prevent Jay from going to the top.  Plus, if the aforementioned weather is so bad, why would they want to run the lifts to exposed peaks?  So folks can bit^& some more and be guaranteed an opportunity years down the road to say, "see, I told you so" ?  :lol:


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 29, 2012)

Regarding the Freezer, any one that has skied Jay has cursed its position and resulting wind issues. But I've often thought about how it could have been better placed. 

Right up the gut of River Quai seems like a good idea but the Bonnie is already there and it is hard to traverse uphill to get to Weddlemaster that services the Ullr's terrain. A new cut thru trail is unreasonable as it would be going against the fall line. And some terrain would have been missed. The tram now becomes required to ski some trails that are currently skiable from the Freezer. Could they have known how bad the wind would be when building it? I don't know.

Only going to the Goat ridge seems like a good idea, that is a good trail pod with GMB, NWP, Expo, Lower Quai/Goat, etc. But that leaves the entire Ullr's area requiring a tram trip or up hill traverse from the Bonnie. Using the Bonnie, it can't be lapped.

So my thought is why didn't they cut down below the Ullr's drainage. This would have worked amazingly well with the West Bowl expansion eliminating the need for a transfer lift if the lift was cut low enough. You'd need to take the Bonnie or the Tram to get to Ullr's to get down to such a lift. Staircase/Everglade fans would be a little pissed that run would have a liftline cut through it. But a lift in that position would be protected from the ridge right until the unload station. It would eliminate the Kokomo run out (there would still be a run out) making that pod much more fun to ski. They could retain another fixed grip lift servicing Expo/GMB/etc and terraform NWP into an intermediate snow making trail to the Non-Freezer lift.

Fun to imagine at this point, any ways.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 30, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> ....
> 
> Only going to the Goat ridge seems like a good idea, that is a good trail pod with GMB, NWP, Expo, Lower Quai/Goat, etc. But that leaves the entire Ullr's area requiring a tram trip or up hill traverse from the Bonnie. Using the Bonnie, it can't be lapped.
> 
> ...



Hey! You stole my idea! Ha, I have been scheming this lift for many years. The Freezer should have stopped where the old Green Mountain Chair did. The base of our imagined lift would be somewhere around the Kokomo/Ullr's intersection, taking a line as riverCoil describes up to the existing Freezer drop-off. Totally desecrating Staircase and Everglade but opening up some great upper mountain skiing. I would ride that lift all day.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 30, 2012)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Hey! You stole my idea! Ha, I have been scheming this lift for many years. The Freezer should have stopped where the old Green Mountain Chair did. The base of our imagined lift would be somewhere around the Kokomo/Ullr's intersection, taking a line as riverCoil describes up to the existing Freezer drop-off. Totally desecrating Staircase and Everglade but opening up some great upper mountain skiing. I would ride that lift all day.



Bottom of Everglade would be my pick but you would loose some of the bottom part and run on JFK for a bit.

No need to go on the flats... and at the end of the season, you can extend how much you use the Ullr's bowl trails instead of having that atrocious flat melt away in seconds.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 30, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Regarding the Freezer, any one that has skied Jay has cursed its position and resulting wind issues. But I've often thought about how it could have been better placed.
> 
> Right up the gut of River Quai seems like a good idea but the Bonnie is already there and it is hard to traverse uphill to get to Weddlemaster that services the Ullr's terrain. A new cut thru trail is unreasonable as it would be going against the fall line. And some terrain would have been missed. The tram now becomes required to ski some trails that are currently skiable from the Freezer. Could they have known how bad the wind would be when building it? I don't know.
> 
> ...



This would work perfectly with the re-positioning of the Bonnie that would allow for direct access to Ulr.  Otherwise, the access would be too difficult, especially with the Tram on wind hold.  This also means that Hotel Jay and Tramhouse guests would be stuck with the mind-boggling slow metro chair (or low capacity tram)  in the morning.  There would be traffic jam at the Metro and Bonnie in the morning.

But looking at the map, I think you are definitely onto something.  Instead of the awkward transfer lift, they could effectively put a lift up Ulr's and JFK (not into Everglade please !) to just beside the Flyer unload station.  On the West bowl, adding a trail south-west of Chairlift 'I' would give access to that new chair.  Getting out of the West bowl would require using chairlift 'I', skiing down to Ulr's Chair and back up.  Looking at the topographic data, the beginning of this new lift would have to be below the flat part of Ulr's, otherwise skiing down from the west bowl would be impossible.  This would be perfect.  No weird transfer lift, and a dedicated chair for the Ulr's area without the flat part and frigid ride up the flyer.

Francois


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 30, 2012)

I figured out that problem halfway through my post... shorten the Freezer to the Goat ridgeline and cut an intermediate trail with snow making down the NWP area. That would get folks over to the repositioned Freezer lift. Sorry, it would cut through Everglade, no way around it. But it would make skiing that pod actually worth while on a cold day.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> :lol:
> 
> That irony aside, for all the bad decisions you say have been made, Jay is one of the greatest mountains for tree skiing and powder skiing in the east and has a much better vibe than many other VT mountains despite the resort build up. There is a lot of room for criticism over the years, lots of bad decisions. But Jay is still an awesome place despite those decisions.



I guess it is ironic that Steve used to work for K, but that is now many, many moons ago.

I would argue that Jay's awesomeness is mostly, if not entirely, due to gifts from Mother Nature rather than from current mgmt.  Pretty hard to screw up a mtn with 2000 vert that claims to receive over 20% more snow than anywhere else in the East.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 1, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> And re: the "bad decision" post by Tinny:
> 
> It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback or an armchair resort operator, and we all do it.  But the truth is I see and hear a lot of good things about JPR and what they have done.  Yeah we all don't the expansion, but honestly folks, they have had plans for 20 or 30 years and it comes as no surprise.



I guess I don't understand the Monday Morning QB claim.  It's not like I was at the table for many of these decisions.  In the case of the Can Am trail, the internet didn't exist for anonymous posters to lob in their $0.02 and for the GM Freezer, I disinctly recall its alignment being a surprise to just about everyone after the fact.  If the Web had existed back to the 80s, and Jay had been as forthcoming about its previous plans as it has been with the current ones, I should have been saying the same things mid-game on Sunday afternoon.  It doesn't take 20 yrs of hindsight to realize that a trail like Can Am is no only a bad idea in the northeast, it is also wildly inconsistent with the character of the other Jay trails.  It doesn't take even 10 yrs of hindsight to realize that enabling access to Ullr's and Wedlemaster was a pretty lame payoff for creating the worst chairlift ride in the East and destroying the upper sections of Everglade and Staircase.



> Some specific points:  trail widening.  That was done in the 1980's when everyone else, Killington, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, and Sugarbush included, were doing it.   Doesn't make it right, but snowmaking, grooming, and handling traffic demanded it.


This is addressed above, but none of the elements you names "demanded" so-called supertrails like Can Am.  They may have enabled them, but they didn't demand them.  We still have snowmaking, grooming and skier visists that are as high as ever, yet the days of the supertrail are blissfully in the past.  It was pure fashion and fad, and shame on any resort that fell for it, in the process ruining what had been fantastic trails and/or stashes forever.



> As to the new trail widening plans, I thought that the last plan was not so bad?


I guess we'll agree to disagree.  I don't have a problem with widening if it is intended to address a dangerous intersection or if there's a specific trail that the mtn wants to turn into a race course, but the proposed widening in the new plan is pretty pervasive, impacting a large % of the names runs.  If the excuse is that it's needed to handle projected increases in traffic, I thought that's what West Bowl is for in the first place.   More width just means less character, more wind, more sun and less snow.  It does absolutely nothing for the skiing experience in the vast majority of cases.



> GMF:  I do agree that it is not a good idea with the winds and weather.  But it made sense to get people as spread out to the underutilized terrain as possible.  It looks good on paper.  If they had ended it where the former GM Double ended then those trails were just get scraped down even faster.  So it's a Catch 22.


This is a false choice. They could have ended it near the 2nd tram twoer, thereby providing access to the entire Bonnie trail pod, which wasn't possible with the old terminus.  By extending it to its current terminus, they added only Ullr's, Wedelmaster and JFK to the tally.  Yes - you would have been left with those three trails served only by the tram - so what.  You can only access some of the best terrain at MRG via the single, and I don't see too many people clamoring for that lift to be upgraded or replaced.



> West Bowl:  not sure why the connector lift, but may have to do with the topography they are working with.  As to why not all the way to the top, might have to do with the fact that the land borders the LT and their ROW/Conservation Easement might prevent Jay from going to the top.  Plus, if the aforementioned weather is so bad, why would they want to run the lifts to exposed peaks?  So folks can bit^& some more and be guaranteed an opportunity years down the road to say, "see, I told you so" ?  :lol:



I think riverCoil's suggestion of a lift from the bottom of West Bowl terminating somewhere on the shoulders of Jay would have had more merit and logic.  This is, BTW, another shortcoming of the Freezer, as it effectively prevents any reasonable alignment of a lift out of West Bowl connecting to the main mtn.  The original plans had such a lift terminating at the same spot as the GMF, but that was a disaster waiting to happen due to all the traffic in that small spot.  As for the weather, those peaks are below treeline and much more sheltered than the shoulder of Jay where the Freezer terminates. If the reason is for ROW/conservation easement, then that's a different story.

Either way, I stand by my original assessment here - Stenger has not done all that well with his major mtn ops decisions and it basically gliding by on the strength of Jay's snowfall, which he has nothing to do with.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Regarding the Freezer, any one that has skied Jay has cursed its position and resulting wind issues. But I've often thought about how it could have been better placed.
> 
> Right up the gut of River Quai seems like a good idea but the Bonnie is already there and it is hard to traverse uphill to get to Weddlemaster that services the Ullr's terrain. A new cut thru trail is unreasonable as it would be going against the fall line. And some terrain would have been missed. The tram now becomes required to ski some trails that are currently skiable from the Freezer. Could they have known how bad the wind would be when building it? I don't know.



I would argue that access to those trails wasn't nearly worth the pain it inflicts on every guest who rides that chair, or the increased wind holds, or the destruction of the upper parts of Everglade and Staircase.  The way I look at it is that the GMF was designed to be the workhorse people mover out of the Tramside base.  By stopping at tower 2, you would have accomplished two critical goals with this lift:

1) Enabling access to mutliple trail pods in order to spread the crowds out and
2) Providing a pretty good terrain pod to lap from tower 2 on down to the base

Was the price they and their guests have paid worth accessing 3 more trails and forever precluding the oppty for a more usable egress lift out of West Bowl?  I would submit not.

Also, if they didn't know how bad the wind would be, then that doesn't speak very well for their planning.  It's not like the wind blowing at Jay Peak is a new phenomenon.  



> So my thought is why didn't they cut down below the Ullr's drainage. This would have worked amazingly well with the West Bowl expansion eliminating the need for a transfer lift if the lift was cut low enough. You'd need to take the Bonnie or the Tram to get to Ullr's to get down to such a lift. Staircase/Everglade fans would be a little pissed that run would have a liftline cut through it. But a lift in that position would be protected from the ridge right until the unload station. It would eliminate the Kokomo run out (there would still be a run out) making that pod much more fun to ski. They could retain another fixed grip lift servicing Expo/GMB/etc and terraform NWP into an intermediate snow making trail to the Non-Freezer lift.
> 
> Fun to imagine at this point, any ways.



No chance to build a lift on this alignment now that the GMF cuts across that entire shoulder of the mtn.


----------



## riverc0il (May 1, 2012)

Tin- Most of your assessment is good sound opinion. But comparing the Tram to the MRG single. W-T-F Dude. The tram already has multiple car waits on most weekends for a few trails off the ridge. The tram isn't worth riding unless you specifically want to ski something off the ridge aside from the trails. Whereas the Single at MRG accesses a massive amount of terrain that you can't get to from the Double (especially the 20th). Your suggested lift placement, without some crazy terrain altering if even possible, would make it difficult for people to get the entire Ullr's area without a tram ride and that includes the much beloved Beaver Pond (I don't understand the love, just reporting the facts). It would make Tram waits in excess of an hour due to it actually servicing legit terrain, not just a couple hundred feet of terrain that occasionally has merit when conditions are good. The MRG Single is a critical and critical lift. The Tram is a token lift that rarely is worth the wait. Making the Tram into a critically needed lift would be horrible.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 1, 2012)

Too bad JPR can't go back to this and start over:





Photo from Vermont's Northland Journal


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Tin- Most of your assessment is good sound opinion. But comparing the Tram to the MRG single. W-T-F Dude. The tram already has multiple car waits on most weekends for a few trails off the ridge. The tram isn't worth riding unless you specifically want to ski something off the ridge aside from the trails. Whereas the Single at MRG accesses a massive amount of terrain that you can't get to from the Double (especially the 20th). Your suggested lift placement, without some crazy terrain altering if even possible, would make it difficult for people to get the entire Ullr's area without a tram ride and that includes the much beloved Beaver Pond (I don't understand the love, just reporting the facts). It would make Tram waits in excess of an hour due to it actually servicing legit terrain, not just a couple hundred feet of terrain that occasionally has merit when conditions are good. The MRG Single is a critical and critical lift. The Tram is a token lift that rarely is worth the wait. Making the Tram into a critically needed lift would be horrible.



Steve - 

The MRG Single reference was a bit toungue-in-cheek but I used it to make a point.  Namely, as you point out, the Single accesses a HUGE swath of some of the best terrain MRG has to offer.  In contrast, even if the Freezer terminated at tower 2 instead of its current location, there would only be a small handful of trails accessible solely by the tram.  Moreover, of that handful, only Vermonter, Ullr's, Wedelmaster and I guess Poma line are runs that the key intermediate/family demographic are likely to venture into.  

My whole point is that you don't need to provide access to Ullr's with a chair out of the Tramside base for that lift to accomplish its primary objectives.  For intermediates, you still would have access to all the front side runs via Goat Run and access to all the Bonnie Bowl runs via Northway - this would have effectively doubled the amount of terrain accessible from the previous GM double.   I would argue that accessing Ullr's from the base is a "nice to have" but not a "need to have".  In addition, by terminating the GMF at tower 2, it would have enabled a MUCH more rational lift layout for the eventual West bowl expansion, consistent with the very alignment you proposed.  You would have a lift from the bottom of West Bowl to where the GMF terminates today that would have four important attributes:

1) Wind protected until the very top
2) Due north alignment enabling the possibility of early/late season skiing
3) Convenient and useful egress out of West Bowl
4) Ability to avoid the painful Ullr's run out and lap some of the best quality terrain at Jay

The current terminus of the GMF effectively precludes this option, all so that you can access a few intermediate runs with a painfully long slog out.  Doesn't seem like there was much payoff for the immediate and longer term adverse impacts this alignment created.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 1, 2012)

I'm going to defend the freezer.
Even though it is by far the most miserable cold/windy ride i've ever been on, IMO there really wasn't another place to put it at the time. When the Flyer went in, Bill S was not yet the owner of the mtn. The grand plans were just a twinkling in the back of his head. PLanning the location of the flyer on future dreams would have been nuts. 
The flyer, as it was built was to be the people mover out of the tram base area. At the time they really needed the cache of having a fast 1500+ vert lift out of Tramside besides the low capacity Tram. If the base of the lift had been located anywhere besides right near the lodge everyone would be screaming about walking to get to the lift. When the Flyer went in and Beaver Pond (and Beyond) were put on the map, there was a huge marketing push that I think really paid off for Jay. The Flyer made that entire ridgeline accessable for far more people on a far more consistent basis. 
Sure the ride is cold and annoying but I think in the end the negatives are outweighed by the positives the lift brought to the mountain. 
Here's food for thought. Is it possible to retrofit the HSQ with a "mid-station" unload at the same spot as the old Green Mtn Double that could be utilized on typical wind hold days? This would still provide access to a large upper mtn trail pod on windy days (especially those days where the new Powerline 6 is shut down for wind), as well as providing access to the West Bowl area via a revised Northwest Passage that Rivercoil described.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 2, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm going to defend the freezer.
> Even though it is by far the most miserable cold/windy ride i've ever been on, IMO there really wasn't another place to put it at the time. When the Flyer went in, Bill S was not yet the owner of the mtn. The grand plans were just a twinkling in the back of his head.


He may not have been the owner, but he waqs the President and GM, and surely had the authority to make these sorts of mtn ops decisions accordingly.




> Planning the location of the flyer on future dreams would have been nuts.


There were plenty of existing good reasons to have the terminus end somewhere else.  Precluding a good layout for the West Bowl expansion 20 yrs later was just a lousy, unintended consequence.



> The flyer, as it was built was to be the people mover out of the tram base area. At the time they really needed the cache of having a fast 1500+ vert lift out of Tramside besides the low capacity Tram.


And it still would have been if terminating near tower 2



> If the base of the lift had been located anywhere besides right near the lodge everyone would be screaming about walking to get to the lift.


The current base of the lift is a little uphill from everything, so unless they were to move the base up the hill somehow, I'm not sure this would have been an issue.



> When the Flyer went in and Beaver Pond (and Beyond) were put on the map, there was a huge marketing push that I think really paid off for Jay. The Flyer made that entire ridgeline accessable for far more people on a far more consistent basis.


I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves.  It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention.  Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades.  That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.



> Here's food for thought. Is it possible to retrofit the HSQ with a "mid-station" unload at the same spot as the old Green Mtn Double that could be utilized on typical wind hold days? This would still provide access to a large upper mtn trail pod on windy days (especially those days where the new Powerline 6 is shut down for wind), as well as providing access to the West Bowl area via a revised Northwest Passage that Rivercoil described.



My understanding is that trying to do that, while sounding seductively simple, is actually difficult and expensive.  You essentially need to add a separate drive motor, so you have one for the top section and one for the bottom section.  That means a few million dollars. I'd be pretty surprised if they ever ponied up that level of coin.


----------



## riverc0il (May 2, 2012)

> I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves. It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention. Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades. That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.


I'm not so sure I agree with the 2nd home owner thing. There are a LOT of moderate level skiers in the glades at Jay. I bet a lot of folks buying condos at Jay ski the glades. Jay isn't exactly a very friendly or nice mountain for intermediates, so I can't see many condo buying families being strictly intermediate either. I'd be surprised if the number of families with tree skiers that own condos is less than half. At other mountains, not so much.

Beaver Pond is an iconic glade. So much so, that I take issue with it and frequently call it out as over rated (I already did so earlier in this thread). It is "intermediate" friendly (in so far as you can survive it with a parallel turn without much skill). I knew about Beaver Pond before I went to Jay my first time. I'd argue that when a particular glade is discussed that much and with such reverence, that it has a higher than general glading effect on return visits and peer to peer mentions. I'm not attributing all of Jay's success to Beaver Pond, it clearly was a big glading campaign. But you can't just discount Jay's most well known, most talked about, and most iconic glade. That would be like saying Paradise at MRG was just part of the mountain's overall glade strategy. Just like Beaver Pond at Jay, Paradise is over rated and the most talked about glade at MRG. It is something in particular people think of when they think of the mountain itself.

I'd still like to see how a lift could have been fit into the tower two area. As I noted previously, you already have the Bonnie unload there. And on the other side of Tower Two is a very cliffy/rocky/steep area. You can't convert Goat into a lift line trail as it is a main artery. I'm not sure where your hypothetical lift would go.

But in an interesting twist, with the tentative six pack going up St. George's Prayer, the Bonnie will be removed and terrain once only serviced by the Freezer (and the Tram, if you can bear the wait) will now be serviced also by the new 6. That makes a two run cycle using your layout which I think is fine, lots of terrain at lots of mountains requires two chairs.

So between the new 6 pack and the West Bowl, it would make perfect sense to either shorten the Freezer to the Goat ridge line or revise it up Quai to the former Bonnie unload area. But the costs of that make it too expensive. And hind sight is 20/20. For when they built it, I think they made the right decision at the time: get the most people up to access the most terrain possible.

As bad as that lift is on a windy day, it is only bad on a windy day. Which is to say, it was sound positioning in all other respects except for the wind. Without good access to the Ullr's area, I'd bet Jay wouldn't have had as much success. You might not see the appeal in Ullr's, JFK, and Beaver Pond... but a lot of folks spend a lot of time on those trails.


----------



## kingdom-tele (May 2, 2012)

could care less about which trails are iconic, that whole ridge and aspect is unique within the scope of the mountain because the woods get loaded in deeper than anywhere else inbounds,  Big J being the other deepest windloaded aspect, its not so much that it fills in, all the woods collect, but those areas don't get wind ripped and compacted so badly, the snow is better - at least in my experience

agree with TW - its a travesty they cut a swath through the everglade aspect

they should start regen islands on Can Am too.

some places can get away with wide open, J not so much, they should embrace the wind and help collect its snow distribution


----------



## fbrissette (May 2, 2012)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves.  It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention.  Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades.  That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.



I will also have to take the defense of the Flyer.  I disagree with the fact that it only services inconsequential terrain.  Beaver and beyond gets the best snow on the mountain.  Lots of stashes are in these glades and those unmarked.   To rely on the Tram for easy access would be a waste of time.  How many runs could you do in one day ?   Besides enjoying the view, there is no reason to take the tram unless you ski the  ridge or one of the four official runs.   

The flyer is not much fun on windy days but the 2-3 minutes of severe pain is more than compensated by the positives.  Wind hold ?   Awesome opportunity for fresh tracks all day if you are willing to traverse off the top of Everglade and walk 2 minutes.  Doubling back Metro and Bonnie is a pain but I prefer to see opportunities instead of inconveniences when the Flyer is on wind delay.

With respect to condo owners (I am one), there are quite a few tree skiers in there although not the majority .  A few Big Jay regulars are condo owners too.  However, for each condo tree skier, there are probably 5 Haynes skiers with shaped racing skis.  Most of the owners also rent, and most of the time, to families who do not venture into trees (bushwalker and moons notwithstanding).

Having said that, with a proper lift servicing the Ulr's drainage area, and the new 6-pack, I see no reason not to re-position the Flyer lower on it's current line.  We can always dream.

Francois


----------



## gregnye (May 11, 2012)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Can you imagine the discussions that went on on in the 60s when the Tram was built? If the Internet existed back then there would have been a Facebook group to "Save the Skyline Chair."



BUMP (sorry)

Here it is!! I always wanted to find a picture of the skyline chair at Jay Peak!! 
And today, Jay Peak posted some really cool old-time pictures on their Facebook page!

Here it is: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Or try the facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150895832429441&set=a.10150895832319441.434937.19659899440&type=1&theater

(Hopefully the image works, this is my first time posting an image)

Looks like a very cool chairlift (view wise, and literally cold with the Jay Wind!!) :smile:


----------



## JPTracker (May 18, 2012)

News from the Jay Zoning Board Meeting Minutes:

New Mountain Learning Center:



> Mr. Elander representing Jay Peak Resort presented the plans for a Mountain Learning Center to be located on State Side. He stated the rational for the location there is no room on tram side and the area on State Side has nice beginner terrain. He reviewed with the board the building floor plan, parking plan, and the site plan. It will be a single story building on a slab with radiant heating. A shingled roof with wood clapboard siding. It will hold 175 kids in kinder ski and 25 kids in daycare. A separate parking lot with 36 parking spaces will be constructed. The plan is to start at the end of July and hope to open December 15, 2012.  He said this is a jay Peak project, not an EB 5 project.



Austria House Renovation:



> Mr. Moore representing, Jay Peak Resort, presented plans for remodeling the Austria House. The plan is to create a market for groceries on the first floor. He said the second floor still be a banquet hall but will be remodeled. He said they are going to try to preserve as much of the character of the building as possible so the stucco will remain on the exterior and the size and configuration of the windows will remain. They plan to maintain existing features of exterior where possible. .... He said they hope to start demolition in the next few weeks and hope to complete the project by December 15, 2102.



Detail Plans are avalable in the ACT 250 Database

Parking:



> He said they are looking to solve the parking issues at the mountain in several ways and phases. In the immediate phase they are creating 36 spaces at the Mountain Learning Center. A few spaces below Austria House. A few spaces where DEW trailers are will be used for valet. He said they have hired an engineer, Al Simon to do a feasibility study to* put a deck over the lower lot on tram side.* This could create approximately 85 spaces. *Also a deck on the existing parking garage* to create about 70 spaces.  They are looking into building a new parking garage.



That parking garage is one of the ugliest things they built. Now they want to make it taller and make the lower lot into a parking garage. As if they haven't messed up Tramside enough already. Instead of building housing on every available piece of land they should create some new parking areas with shuttle buses as many other ski areas do.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 18, 2012)

As much as I hate parking garages at ski areas, they truly are a more environmentally friendly option than sprawled single level parking lots.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2012)

With the huge retaining wall already looming over the lower lot, it would be really easy to put a deck over it expanding the upper lot by roughly 100 spaces. This would have minimal negative visual impact over the current retaiing wall as well as being (as DHS points out) more environmentally friendly over mowing down more forest to build satellite lots.


----------



## BigJay (May 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> As much as I hate parking garages at ski areas, they truly are a more environmentally friendly option than sprawled single level parking lots.



I hate the idea of having parking garages in a natural environment... but sprawling all over the place is not a realistic option IMO.

I don't like what's going on at the moment... what's next paved parking all over? A very 60s state of mind...


----------



## riverc0il (May 30, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> With the huge retaining wall already looming over the lower lot, it would be really easy to put a deck over it expanding the upper lot by roughly 100 spaces. This would have minimal negative visual impact over the current retaiing wall as well as being (as DHS points out) more environmentally friendly over mowing down more forest to build satellite lots.


I'm definitely not in favor of seeing parking garages at ski areas. But this is actually a really good idea with minimal impact that might even improve the look of things a little bit. That retaining wall is already but ugly.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 30, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWwUJH70ubM

Made me think of this song.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 2, 2012)

Here are lots of fresh news from this morning Homeowner meeting:

This is what is happening this summer prior to next skiing season
- 30 Millions worth of project
- Sky Haus redone: food and beverage operation, sewer line, new interior and toilets, same footprint.
- New chair on Stateside (to near the Taxi) will be a Doppelmayr fixed grip quad (deal is done)
- Mountain learning center (ski school, ski rental and daycare, some food services) with a satellite left on Tramside.  Two new conveyors 100 ft and 275 ft for absolute beginners.  T-bar will be gone. Building and conveyors to be built north of Stateside Chalet in what is currently a wooded area.
- 100 lodging units (or beds ?) to be added (were not specifically discussed but I assume they are the additional Mountain/golf cottages and the new buildings near Stoney Path condos)
- Renovation of Austria house into a country store (not a food market but a country store).
- Parking: as mentioned earlier in this thread, looks like the extension of Tramside parking over the lower level parking is for real.  175 additional spots.  They will also have additional parking space off-site for employees
-More shuttle buses
- Stateside chalet stays for one last year.  Last chance to enjoy the wonderful toilets.


This is what was announced for next year:

- Replace the Bonnie with a new 6-pack along powerline as planned
- Additional stateside facilities: small hotel, rec center: 4 tennis courts, mountain biking trails (they will be lower mountain level trails, not planning to get the lifts running, they also briefly mentioned zip lines and climbing walls (not sure if they are for next year or further down the road).  Money is secured for these.

West bowl (looks like it's coming)
Been investing lots of money to get all of the permitting,  Walter Elander said he was confident we would be skiing on the West Bowl in the winter 2014-2015.  Basically installing basic infrastructures summer 2013, lifts and runs summer 2014.  

Stupid trail east of Timbuktu
Somebody asked a question about it. Still in the works but will not be implemented until the West Bowl is open with its additional glades.   That leaves us at least 2 years to make Jay realize it is a dumb idea.  A few of us talked to Walter Elander after the meeting to emphasize how bad an idea this was.  Thinking of setting up a Facebook page about this.

Other bits:
- the pumphouse is nearing 200000 entries in 5 and a half months.  Huge success.  
- hockey tournaments and marriages are increasing dramatically, great for shoulder season.
- Jay purchased Snowline lodge.  There are plans in the work to make it into a small medical facility.
- no news on repaving the 242
- Looks like the EB5 program will be extended for at least 3 years (Bill Stenger seemed extremely confident).

I am sure I am missing a few but other are likely to chime in.  All in all, pretty good news from my perspective.

Francois


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks for the update, lots of good news there! Especially Sky Haus getting updated and getting F&B. Stateside bathrooms may suck but at least all the pissers work unlike Sky Haus. Really surprised to hear 2014 for West Bowl. I think a grass roots revolt against the Timbuk perimeter trail is probably a good idea, I can't believe they haven't taken this off the table yet.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 2, 2012)

Yeah, great update, thanks.  Did anybody ask if the still plan to reuse the Bonnie quad for the Jet?  With it's length and mybe the West Bowl coming soon I gotta wonder if it might be more useful elsewhere.


----------



## gregnye (Jun 2, 2012)

Yay! A new lift! And Skyhouse!!!

And it seems like the westbowl may happen soon!

Excellent news (except for timbuktu trail). However, I tend to "always look on the bright side of life"


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 2, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Yeah, great update, thanks.  Did anybody ask if the still plan to reuse the Bonnie quad for the Jet?  With it's length and mybe the West Bowl coming soon I gotta wonder if it might be more useful elsewhere.



This was not mentioned nor discussed.

Francois


----------



## bigbog (Jun 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I'm definitely not in favor of seeing parking garages at ski areas. But this is actually a really good idea with minimal impact that might even improve the look of things a little bit. That retaining wall is already but ugly.



Not just "a really good idea", it's actually the ideal avenue of design-thought this society could use....and not just here, but _Everywhere_....   We need to adopt the Japanese way of design more than the old American West homesteader way if we're to hold on to "country", *****but of course undeveloped land isn't a part of the vocab of 90% of the visitors and $$$ = urban/suburban-dwellers...so I guess we shall see......


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 2, 2012)

bigbog said:


> Not just "a really good idea", it's actually the ideal avenue of design-thought this society could use....and not just here, but _Everywhere_....   We need to adopt the Japanese way of design more than the old American West homesteader way if we're to hold on to "country", *****but of course undeveloped land isn't a part of the vocab of 90% of the visitors and $$$ = urban/suburban-dwellers...so I guess we shall see......


Are you suggesting multi-story parking garages should be in place at more ski areas?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2012)

fbrissette said:


> Here are lots of fresh news from this morning Homeowner meeting:
> 
> - Jay purchased Snowline lodge.  There are plans in the work to make it into a small medical facility.
> Francois



Lots of good info inyour post. Thanks! :beer:

The Snowline lodge being turned into a medical clinic is pretty cool. No longer having to drive all the way to the hospital in Newport with a broken bone or torn muscle. Riverc0il knows about having to do that :razz:

Any discussion about Jay Peak's other "big" purchase at the meeting?


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 3, 2012)

A couple additional items from the meeting:

The Snowline lodge is now being used for DEW construction offices. So conversion to medical facility is a ways off.

242 - Bill said the the Montgomery side should be repaved this year. On the Jay side there is a sewer project to be done which will dig up the road. After this is done then the Jay side will be repaved.

Tramside base lodge will receive minor upgrades this year including new carpet. Major renovation he did not really speak about but gave impression it is near the bottom of the list.

Burke - Will be some kind of combo pass available. For those who already bought next years passes there will be a upgrade available. I heard a number around $60 for the upgrade mentioned but nothing official.


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 3, 2012)

JSP sent me to Morrisville. I should have just drove back to StJ, almost the same time.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jun 4, 2012)

Excellent reportage, Francois. You even scooped the JPR marketing engine:
http://www.pitchengine.com/jaypeakresort/jay-peak-resort-announces-30-million-in-upgrades


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Jun 5, 2012)

This came out today.. i mean yesterday lol.

http://www.pitchengine.com/jaypeakresort/jay-peak-resort-announces-30-million-in-upgrades

I am going to miss ursula and laarz at the snowline lodge. So many years she yelled at me for bringing more people than I said were coming lol (some years I would rent the entire place) It really is a shame to destroy that bar in the basement. any of you who have been there should know what I mean by that.

I like the burke buyout makes sense. They picked up the group sales office (literally) last week and moved it out of the way so they can make the new store.

lots of progress,,,


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 5, 2012)

Mpdsnowman said:


> This came out today.. i mean yesterday lol.
> 
> http://www.pitchengine.com/jaypeakresort/jay-peak-resort-announces-30-million-in-upgrades
> 
> ...


Stenger says "visitor numbers were up" which is rather mis-leading when paired with one of the worst winters in recent memory. He is equating hockey rick and waterpark guests with skier guests. While I know that is the business model he is using, it is concerning to see that type of dubious wording. There is no way skier/rider visits were up. Stenger really spun his numbers because that is what it sounds like he is saying there.

It is statements like that one that keep me rooted firmly in reality with a critical eye towards how Jay is expanding. And it is a statement like that which might give me some pause about Burke's future with Jay. But I guess an open and sustainable Burke is better no matter how it is down. I can't see a "guest" being counted as anything other than a skier or rider at Burke, but I'm sure Jay will eventually change that somehow.

Would have liked to have seen a new lodge Stateside before a new learning center. The new learning center is going to bring a LOT more people stateside. Stateside was already way over crowded, especially with the new parking Stateside and lack of it Tramside. This can't help that situation. This is definitely putting the cart before the horse.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hotel+water park+hockey rink = Newbies and families = need for a new learning center. 

The lodge will come, hopefully the EB5 money keeps flowing or that their revenue is up enough that they can build a new lodge sooner than anticipated.


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Jun 5, 2012)

I was at the meeting Sat. and Bill said "Skier visits were up slightly YOY".   New England was down 20% on avg.  I don't see anything misleading but naysayers will be naysayers.   I can easily see the skier visits being that based on the crowd i saw this season and how they sustained their run after the rest of New England melted.  Waterpark essentially saved the resort from having a terrible season.  Jay has managed their transformation amazingly well and we'll all have the benefit of updated facilities at the best skiing terrain in the East.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Stenger says "visitor numbers were up" which is rather mis-leading when paired with one of the worst winters in recent memory.



I will back LuvinJayCloud on this.  Bill clearly said that skiers visits were very slightly up compared to an average of 20% down everywhere else.  A lot of those visits were likely families that ended up in the waterpark after a few runs, but these are visits nonetheless.  I skied 50+ days last season and was actually surprised at how many people there were even when the ski conditions were abysmal. Another thing I noticed was that families with young kids seemed to be sharply on the rise.  My guess is this is where they picked up lots of ski visits.  

Another interesting tidbit from the meeting is when Steve Wright talked about the families that booked rooms to come exclusively for the waterpark/arena without skiing.  Average median income of these people was higher than that of skiing families.  They are gonna go hard after these families to get them into skiing.  The learning center and new lift is aimed at them in particular.

Francois


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2012)

They are really doing quite a bit. I know there have been some concerns on them maintaining their identity. I've yet to ski Jay (hopefully this upcoming winter.... will bring new baby!) so I can't really comment on it myself but I like some of the things they have going on. The waterpark looks like fun. I'm still a kid at heart. That pic of Snowmonster riding the wave earlier had me sold.


----------



## gregnye (Jun 5, 2012)

Yes, Jay peak has taken on a whole new atmosphere, It now appeals to a new type of people. 

My Boy Scout troop had a tradition of going to Jay Peak every winter for 4 days. We would rough it out in some boy scout camp 30 minutes from Jay, and then drive there everyday to ski--sometimes having to push our cars up the hills because of ice!

At first, I doubted that the waterpark would be such a big hit, after all--those who want to relax in a waterpark are not going to push their car up the road when it is slippery with ice and snow in the early morning--however I was wrong.

It has changed the way my boy scout troop does things. When I was younger, after skiing, we used to do a sledding "adventure" that involved hiking and sledding (sometimes on lunch trays!)  :smile:

Now that has all changed. When I joined my troop (as an older sibling) for the campout last this past winter, no one even brought their sled! In fact scouts told me that they would rather go down a waterslide than go outside after the skiing day ended. 

Some scouts never actually went skiing during that 3 (or 4) day trip! They thought it was too cold (which I guess it was, being -23 degrees with windchill on the Freezer). But hey, in the past, everyone went skiing when it was that cold on the Freezer.

So there you go--real life example of how the expansion has changed my life, and the life of those around me. 

(I just kinda felt like posting this)


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Jun 5, 2012)

If you have kids the waterpark is a hit. But I gotta be honest here I believe the waterpark will turn into a fad and be very cumbersome to maintain...in the long run...Its like a pool except year around (anyone who owns a pool knows the work involved yet we only use them certain times of the year)

I will say for the package I put together to have the waterpark is a nice feature....I paid 15 dollars a day last year which was cheap. But I can see it being an albatross in the future.

lol,,,that was my statement to the robs at group sales lol..


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2012)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Excellent reportage, Francois. You even scooped the JPR marketing engine:
> http://www.pitchengine.com/jaypeakresort/jay-peak-resort-announces-30-million-in-upgrades





> A fixed-grip quad chair will carry guests from the State Side base area, over the 720 terrain park, unloading just above the Taxi trail providing visitors easier access to the Tram side of the mountain.



So are they really going above Taxi or not? The initial length of this lift on the master plan does not go above taxi but you could still get to the Taxi/Goat/Queen's Highway intersection easy enough.







However, going above Taxi will make getting to the terrain park easier.
This intersection has the potential of being very congested with the lift dumping people into the cross traffic of taxi. Luckliy the speeds through there are slow.

Master plan in Google Earth:





The one thing that surprised me about this layout was how far up the slope the lift starts. That are is over 300 feet away and 30+ ft up from the current lodge, if the new learning center is built where the trees currently are behind the old lodge, the distance will be even greater (500+ feet). This is not really good to make novices walk a long way (and across traffic headed to the main Boneventure chair) to get to their lift. I suppose they could always ride the new carpet and then ski "down" to the new quad.

New Plan (with lower bottom terminal)?


----------



## BigJay (Jun 5, 2012)

No one seems to remember that:

1- The new quad for the park... should be exactly where the old Queen's Highway T-bar use to be...
2- The new D-6pk on the powerline is going to be exactly where the old Bonnie use to be...

My concern right now: the new mountain center... should be located where the actual bonnie sits... Anyone noticed that?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2012)

BigJay said:


> No one seems to remember that:
> 
> 1- The new quad for the park... should be exactly where the old Queen's Highway T-bar use to be...
> 2- The new D-6pk on the powerline is going to be exactly where the old Bonnie use to be...
> ...



1. I'm not quite sure exactly where the old T-bar used to be, but it didn't cross over Taxi did it? For what it is worth, I think crossing Taxi is a bad thing.

2. That I do know. Did the old Bonnie start that far up the Mtn away from the lodge(s)?

My theory is that putting those lift bases up closer to the trees will help shelter them from wind and sun.


Currently, from the information out there, it is hard to say where the new day lodge and small hotel are going to be located. Maybe near where the actual bonnie sits? IMHO having those buildings closer to the main upper mountain lifts is better than having the learning center there.


----------



## BigJay (Jun 5, 2012)

Look at the map... when they say Taxi... they mean the lower one... i think... The one that slashes the bottom of Buckaroo Bunzai and that lets you unload either towards tramside or to the traverse for the Jet... exactly where the old t-bar use to go. Going to the "higher" taxi would be a waste and would be repeating the steep section that use to scare beginners away with the old t-bar on tramside.

As for the old double, it use to stand on the flat spot at the bottom of the northway... you could "circle" around the loading i hope the new alignment puts it further out so that you can cross in all direction without running into ropes... something JPR should make an assessment off before finalizing final location... they need to simulate where users will line up when lines are in effect... and midweek when there is no official line.

We need to still be able to access the Jet from the trails off the T-bar (yeah, t-bar will be gone... but traversing from Perry Merril will still hapen!


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 5, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> 1. I'm not quite sure exactly where the old T-bar used to be, but it didn't cross over Taxi did it? For what it is worth, I think crossing Taxi is a bad thing.
> 
> 2. That I do know. Did the old Bonnie start that far up the Mtn away from the lodge(s)?
> 
> ...



I think the old t bar went up lower Can Am. Having the new lift cross Taxi I think is a misprint.

The lifts are being moved uphill to eliminate some of the flat runout and also give them more room for the base lodge and hotel without taking parts of the parking lot. Also those flats at the bottom are some of the first areas to melt out in the spring.

Remember when the Flyer went in and everyone wondered why it went so far uphill from the old double. That was to leave room for the Tram House lodge. The same is true here.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> I think the old t bar went up lower Can Am. Having the new lift cross Taxi I think is a misprint.
> 
> The lifts are being moved uphill to eliminate some of the flat runout and also give them more room for the base lodge and hotel without taking parts of the parking lot. Also those flats at the bottom are some of the first areas to melt out in the spring.
> 
> Remember when the Flyer went in and everyone wondered why it went so far uphill from the old double. That was to leave room for the Tram House lodge. The same is true here.



I think you are right on the T-Bar. According to this old map:





And the current pattern of trees it looks like the old lift went here (green line):





[/IMG]


I was thinking the flat areas presented a melt problem which is why being up near the trees would be adventageous. According to that master plan there is more than enough room between the lifts and the lodge and hotel. Maybe the lodge and hotel are going to creep uphill a bit to get out of the parking lot like you said.


----------



## BigJay (Jun 5, 2012)

Here's my view on this...

Main issue: that magic carpet will get in the way of a lot of skier/rider traffic.
Solution: Move it towards the alignment of today's t-bar.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2012)

Who is doing the new lift?  Poma or Doppelmayr?


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Jun 5, 2012)

Doppel.   Not sure i get the magic carpet issue you bring up.  It will be to the right (looking up mountain) of the old T- bar,  way away from mountain traiffic.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2012)

luvinjaycloud said:


> Doppel.   Not sure i get the magic carpet issue you bring up.  It will be to the right (looking up mountain) of the old T- bar,  way away from mountain traiffic.



The master plan has a "Beginner Conveyor" smack in the middle of chalet meadows. It sounds like the new plans for the Learning Center will move this  out of the way.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2012)

I wonder if they went Doppelmayr since the rest of the fixed grip lifts on the mtn are Doppls? And is it going to have a conveyor?

Will the HS6 be a Leitner/Poma to  compliment the Freezer?


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 5, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> The master plan has a "Beginner Conveyor" smack in the middle of chalet meadows. It sounds like the new plans for the Learning Center will move this  out of the way.



The plan they showed last weekend showed the Learning Center area from the right of the existing base lodge almost all the ways back to the entrance. If you look at the plan above the area enclosed by the parking lot and the road going up to the new condos, all white on the plan, wil be the new learning area where the carpets will be.  

In fact they had two carpets on the plan. One about half the length of the existing t bar but to the right of the t bar in the now wooded area. And a second shorter one all the way on the right side of the area.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2012)

gregnye said:


> Yes, Jay peak has taken on a whole new atmosphere, It now appeals to a new type of people.
> 
> My Boy Scout troop had a tradition of going to Jay Peak every winter for 4 days. We would rough it out in some boy scout camp 30 minutes from Jay, and then drive there everyday to ski--sometimes having to push our cars up the hills because of ice!





> It has changed the way my boy scout troop does things. When I was younger, after skiing, we used to do a sledding "adventure" that involved hiking and sledding (sometimes on lunch trays!)  :smile:
> 
> Now that has all changed. When I joined my troop (as an older sibling) for the campout last this past winter, no one even brought their sled! In fact scouts told me that they would rather go down a waterslide than go outside after the skiing day ended.
> 
> ...



Ah yes, Mount Norris Scout Reservation!  Lots of potential there...they just need money.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> The lifts are being moved uphill to eliminate some of the flat runout and also give them more room for the base lodge and hotel without taking parts of the parking lot. Also those flats at the bottom are some of the first areas to melt out in the spring.



This is correct.  Keeping all current parking spaces is a primary concern.  Too bad they could not figure out a better way to make the Jet and the new Bonnie more easily connected to one another.

Francois


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 5, 2012)

I guess I stand corrected on the skier visits thing though I wonder how they separated out folks only there for non-skiing activities compared to those there for skiing activities? I'm extremely doubtful any ski area, even JPR with their new water park, actually had an increase in skier/rider visits (at least those that actually ski and ride).

Meanwhile, I just got an email from JPR about the New England Mountain Bike Festival at Burke. Stay at Jay, Ride at Burke. "Just 45 Minutes from Burke" :lol: Apparently, they don't drive the speed limit at JPR.  Even Kingdom Trails rather than Burke proper would just be reachable in an hour at the speed limit. 45 minutes would be guaranteed ticket.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I'm extremely doubtful any ski area, even JPR with their new water park, actually had an increase in skier/rider visits (at least those that actually ski and ride).



Makes me wonder how they factor in the season pass holders. Do they actually keep track, or do they assign X number of days per pass.  The reason being, a friend of mine went up on an early season trip and it included a full season pass.  It was a VERY large group from NY/NJ area.  Most of the people didn't ski much that weekend and I'm not sure how many got back up after that.  My friend got up one additional weekend, and none of his friens got back up at all.  It was a crazy good deal  considering you get a season pass.  If they're doing the same thing with multiple groups and not counting the days used on each specific pass, there is a chance some numbers could be inflated.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I guess I stand corrected on the skier visits thing though I wonder how they separated out folks only there for non-skiing activities compared to those there for skiing activities? I'm extremely doubtful any ski area, even JPR with their new water park, actually had an increase in skier/rider visits (at least those that actually ski and ride).
> 
> Meanwhile, I just got an email from JPR about the New England Mountain Bike Festival at Burke. Stay at Jay, Ride at Burke. "Just 45 Minutes from Burke" :lol: Apparently, they don't drive the speed limit at JPR.  Even Kingdom Trails rather than Burke proper would just be reachable in an hour at the speed limit. 45 minutes would be guaranteed ticket.



With the RFID cards, it should be extremely easy to know exactly how many skiers you got.  In fact, I would think that RFID counts would likely be underevaluated since it is fairly easy to pass your card or resell it to someone else, especially for day passes (no photo ID).  Even with photo ID, the risk would be minimal.  In fact, for the first 2 years of RFID, they screwed up my season pass and it was associated with the picture of a girl.  I skied around 40 days each year before an attendant flagged me...  Nevertheless, even if they can get an exact count does not mean they do not cook the numbers.

Yep, 45 minutes is not going to fool anyone.  Steve Wright actually joked that it was 'Stenger time' (Bill said 50 minutes during the meeting).  They also say that Montreal is 90 minutes away which is only possible if you go 80 miles per hour on the highway, forget to stop at customs, and take for granted that Montreal starts in the middle of the Champlain Bridge. 

Francois


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Makes me wonder how they factor in the season pass holders. Do they actually keep track, or do they assign X number of days per pass.



As mentioned above, I would assume they don't 'guesstimate' the number of visits per season passes since they should be able to precisely track the use of season passes with the RFID.  In fact, in theory, if they log everything, they should be able to tell me how many vertical feet I skied last season and which lift I prefer.  I think the numbers that were mentioned were 300000 ski-day and 4000 season passes.  Guessing 25 days per season passes, you get roughly 33% of all ski-days from season pass holders.

If I was in marketing, I would keep track of all those stats so I would know exactly who skis where (season pass holders, hotel visitors etc... so I can cater better to my clientele).

Francois


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2012)

As mentioned, it is skier days that they measure, which is one skier/rider doing at least one run per day IIRC.  It is just going through the turnstiles once that matters.  So there is no pre-set value for a season pass...it is how many days you used it.  For me, for example, I used my pass 30 days at my resort.  So I equate to 30 skier days

And with the nitpicking, I think I can understand why they had an increase in skier numbers.   Mind you that I was not at this meeting and have not personally seen the actual numbers year over year.  I would hope that they did see an increase, or at least one that was in proportion with the season, with all the marketing, building, and expansion work that they have done.  Remember that they said skier days were up, not necessarily skier revenue.  They ran A LOT of promos and, like other places, probably did a lot of comps and reduced ticket price deals to get people to the hill.  So that can explain an increase as well.  Bottom line is I would have expected them to have a better season than most places because of their snow and rep.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2012)

And 300,000 is what I would expect for a resort their size.  Remember that Killington back in the day was at 1 million or just over it.


----------



## snowmonster (Jun 5, 2012)

Nick said:


> They are really doing quite a bit. I know there have been some concerns on them maintaining their identity. I've yet to ski Jay (hopefully this upcoming winter.... will bring new baby!) so I can't really comment on it myself but I like some of the things they have going on. The waterpark looks like fun. I'm still a kid at heart. That pic of Snowmonster riding the wave earlier had me sold.



Glad that my surfing photo had some use.=) Let me know if you go there. It would be nice to have company. I'm a kid at heart too. If you think the surfing was fun, you should try La Chute -- a waterslide loop the loop. Really fun. Game arcade was fun too. They have skeeball! And, oh yeah, the glade skiing up there is phenomenal too!


----------



## Steve@jpr (Jun 6, 2012)

*Clarification*

Lots of fun sound and fury flailing around and I'll let you guys continue to enjoy that process--as do I.  I'll jump in here only to say, and I'll be as clear as I can here--skier visits were slightly up this year.  This isn't a result of some season pass modifier, us using a rubric that includes skaters, surfers or snowshoers or some other subtle slightish of hand.  My two cents?  It's a result of lodging based vacationers who didn't bail as a result of poor weather because they had other options (and by my two cents, I mean cancellations were down almost 100% despite the worst weather in a generation), an enormous number of splash and stay combination tickets and, possibly more than anything, people taking multiple day splash and stay vacations where they added on/integrated a single day of ski/ride--this is a market that we feel has additional upside.

Just a little light to help cut through the fog--as you will, do what you'd like with it and enjoy the start of summer. 

steve


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 6, 2012)

Steve@jpr said:


> Lots of fun sound and fury flailing around and I'll let you guys continue to enjoy that process--as do I.  I'll jump in here only to say, and I'll be as clear as I can here--skier visits were slightly up this year.  This isn't a result of some season pass modifier, us using a rubric that includes skaters, surfers or snowshoers or some other subtle slightish of hand.  My two cents?  It's a result of lodging based vacationers who didn't bail as a result of poor weather because they had other options (and by my two cents, I mean cancellations were down almost 100% despite the worst weather in a generation), an enormous number of splash and stay combination tickets and, possibly more than anything, people taking multiple day splash and stay vacations where they added on/integrated a single day of ski/ride--this is a market that we feel has additional upside.
> 
> Just a little light to help cut through the fog--as you will, do what you'd like with it and enjoy the start of summer.
> 
> steve



Hi Steve, since you're on board, can you say if you are compiling any sorts of stats with RFID data, beside skier-visits ?  I can imagine lots of cool stuff you could do with the dataset marketing wise.   300,000 skier-visits times 10 runs per visit is only 3 million data points.  Small database by today's standards.

Francois


----------



## Steve@jpr (Jun 6, 2012)

Yes Francois--we have tons of data to apply strategy against. 




fbrissette said:


> Hi Steve, since you're on board, can you say if you are compiling any sorts of stats with RFID data, beside skier-visits ?  I can imagine lots of cool stuff you could do with the dataset marketing wise.   300,000 skier-visits times 10 runs per visit is only 3 million data points.  Small database by today's standards.
> 
> Francois


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 6, 2012)

Steve@jpr said:


> and, possibly more than anything, people taking multiple day splash and stay vacations where they added on/integrated a single day of ski/ride--this is a market that we feel has additional upside.


Thanks for chiming in.

Even though I know what that waterpark is supposed to do, I am still flabbergasted that it is doing it so well that people are reserving and doing more water parking than skiing. It sounds like you are saying that many folks are doing multiple waterpark days but then only skiing a single day. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. And I guess we should expect to see more of these at other resorts given Jay's apparent success during one of the worst winters ever.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 6, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> It sounds like you are saying that many folks are doing multiple waterpark days but then only skiing a single day. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. And I guess we should expect to see more of these at other resorts given Jay's apparent success during one of the worst winters ever.



From a skier perspective this is the best possible outcome.  Money pours into the resort from people not competing for fresh tracks.   

It was also quite surprising to watch cars arriving tramside early in the morning carrying lightly-dressed persons carrying beach bags and a cooler instead of boards and skis.

I actually met neighbours at the waterpark.  As nice as the waterpark is, It's hard for me to comprehend driving 2 hours one-way to spend a day inside. 

Francois


----------



## riverc0il (Jun 6, 2012)

fbrissette said:


> From a skier perspective this is the best possible outcome.  Money pours into the resort from people not competing for fresh tracks.


I think you are reading this backwards. Jay Peak had an increase of skier visits during the worst winter in recent memory. What is going to happen during the best winter in recent memory or even an average one. Not to mention, those waterparkers are going to want to ski the fresh powder if it snows...


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 6, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I think you are reading this backwards. Jay Peak had an increase of skier visits during the worst winter in recent memory. What is going to happen during the best winter in recent memory or even an average one. Not to mention, those waterparkers are going to want to ski the fresh powder if it snows...



Hopefully you are wrong and I'm right.  The impression I got is that the extra-traffic is in large part due to families with young kids, that only ski half a day, that mostly stick to groomed runs and hit the aquapark if cold and/or snowy.  Anyway, that's what I want to believe !  Steve could answer that I guess.

Francois


----------



## Steve@jpr (Jun 8, 2012)

Part of our focus, this year, will be on trying to turn Waterparkers into skiers/riders.  The index of those (waterparkers) who currently ski (at least from the day trip set) is low and we think there's potential-especially in light of some new learn-to efforts we'll be introducing later this summer.  

The act of protecting winter vacations, as a result of offering weather-proof options, even flabbergasted us to be honest (or maybe it was just me, Stenger just kept saying I told you so), and while our, er, apparent success is probably attributable to a lot more than a waterpark, it definitely impacted several departments-lodging far and away the bigger of the winners-in a positive way.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2012)

Curious what the capacity of the water park is?  Does it "sell out" on weekends?


----------



## gregnye (Jun 8, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Curious what the capacity of the water park is?  Does it "sell out" on weekends?



I am curious too. One reviewer on Yelp wrote that they should set a limit on how many tickets they sell (they thought it was too crowded on a 3 day weekend).


----------



## Steve@jpr (Jun 8, 2012)

Any-one-time limit is +/- 900.  We definitely had days where we were busier than we thought/expected/planned for.  Part of what we'll be integrating this year is a buy-before-you-drive caveat across certain weekends where, if you aren't lodging with us or in the region, there are only a certain amount of walk-up tickets available.  We should have figured this out last season to be honest--not sure how I missed that one.


----------



## gregnye (Jun 8, 2012)

Steve@jpr said:


> Any-one-time limit is +/- 900.  We definitely had days where we were busier than we thought/expected/planned for.  Part of what we'll be integrating this year is a buy-before-you-drive caveat across certain weekends where, if you aren't lodging with us or in the region, there are only a certain amount of walk-up tickets available.  We should have figured this out last season to be honest--not sure how I missed that one.



Thanks! Good to see that you guys are trying to make the experience fun for everyone! I may kinda miss the old Jay atmosphere a little, but I think "Baby Steps" as you guys try to build the skier base before the West Bowl. Keep it up!


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Jun 16, 2012)

For those who have not seen the waterpark here you go lol







They are including the water park in all their group packages. I like that part. Most who went with us last year enjoyed it and felt I should add it to the package anyways. It was crowded .but it was new.....I think you will see the crowds level out as time goes on....

There is a free hot tub there. One issue we ran into was unmonitored kids in that hot tub.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 18, 2012)

La Chute making the national top 10 lists...

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/slideshow/americas-amazing-waterslides-16569551


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2012)

State Side Plan is approved.  

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=80810


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 28, 2012)

http://www.liftopia.com/ski-resort-...tm_campaign=New+England+Summer+Sale+-+6-27-12 great deals off jay peak summer park here


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 29, 2012)

Three new Act 250 permits for Jay are now on line:
1) Permit for the Sky Haus Sewer Line - The sewer line will run up Vermonter to the Sky Haus. Looks like Jay is serious about renovating the Sky Haus. This will enable them to put in a real restaurant and functioning bathrooms.  The only thing that puzzles me is that there is no real water line to the summit. The water line is above ground and in the winter the bring up water on the tram. Will this limit their operation up there in the winter?

2) Permit for the Mountain Learning Center. Nothing new here.





3) Permit for the new Taxi Lift to replace the t-bar. Looks like it will take out most of the woods just below Taxi after Can Am.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jul 1, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Three new Act 250 permits for Jay are now on line:
> 1) Permit for the Sky Haus Sewer Line - The sewer line will run up Vermonter to the Sky Haus. Looks like Jay is serious about renovating the Sky Haus. This will enable them to put in a real restaurant and functioning bathrooms.  The only thing that puzzles me is that there is no real water line to the summit. The water line is above ground and in the winter the bring up water on the tram. Will this limit their operation up there in the winter?



I would assume that the sewer line will run by the existing snowmaking pipes on Vermonter. If people drink enough beer they won't need much drinking water up top! Or maybe they will melt snow...



JPTracker said:


> 3) Permit for the new Taxi Lift to replace the t-bar. Looks like it will take out most of the woods just below Taxi after Can Am.



Good find, JPT.

Wow, there goes my favourite pre-lunch cruise down to to Stateside, The Boulevard. Well, at least there will be some towers to ski around. Notice that the chair exit is at the Taxi/Lower Goat intersection, which can be a bit of a cluster-%&$# on busy days. Beginners getting off the chair will certainly do nothing to help that situation. I guess the good news is that the rarely-skied easy runs like Lower Sweetheart and Kangaroo, which used to be served by the original t-bar, will see some use. 

What happened to the idea that this new lift was going to serve the 720 park area?


----------



## Nick (Jul 1, 2012)

FYI take a look at the sticky in the skiing forum, Steve from Jay Peak is participating in the challenge this year so we can get the answers to any questions about this expansion right from the source

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bdfreetuna (Aug 2, 2012)

Personally I don't mind if they make changes state side. I never found the UN and those trails over there very interesting anyway. Timbucktu is fun if there's fresh snow but that's the only reason I head over there.

The new terrain on the other side with the 3 pods or whatever they are calling it looks potentially interesting. How steep is it over there? Are we looking at access to any interesting new chutes or are these going to be blue square glades?

What's going on with Green Beret? That's a classic run IMO and should be left the way it is for eternity. The only change to this trail should be more snow guns or whatever it takes to open it up more often.

As long as the Ridge and Face / Tuck Chutes remain I'll still go to Jay.

I hadn't heard of this expansion until now, when I saw this thread I kinda hoped they were gonna open up terrain on the back of the main peak =)


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 30, 2012)

Tramside parking deck Act 250 application has been submitted. Looks to add around 245 parking spaces.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/ANR/ACT250/Act250.aspx

Enter "Jay" in the town field and open the top detail link.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 30, 2012)




----------



## Nick (Aug 30, 2012)

Cool overlay did you do that or was that from JP?

I got an error clicking the link.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 30, 2012)

Nick said:


> Cool overlay did you do that or was that from JP?
> 
> I got an error clicking the link.



I did the overlay in Google Earth.
The Act 250 site is hard to link to so I changed the link to the root page.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 7, 2012)

Construction of the parking deck has started.

Construction of the new lift is also well under way. Footings poured and towers & bull wheels in parking lot.

Construction of the Mountain Learning center is also started.

Sewer Line to summit also started.

Busy time at Jay right now.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 8, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> Construction of the parking deck has started.
> 
> Construction of the new lift is also well under way. Footings poured and towers & bull wheels in parking lot.
> 
> ...




And you are forgetting the 'gazillion' new rental units along the golf course and just below the village condos. Have no idea on how they are going to fill those up during the winter.   They also cut lots of trees along the entrance on 242.  No clue why.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 9, 2012)

Also don't forget they gutted the Tram House to build a new restaurant and the first floor of the Autria Haus is gutted to become a  lot larger Mini Mart.

Also noticed the trees cut down by the entrance. No idea what for. Can anyone enlighten us?


----------



## gregnye (Nov 30, 2012)

And the Taxi Quad opens today!!!!  :smile:

(they should have named it something better than just "taxi quad" though--of all places, the Jay Peak management always has the best humor! Why couldn't they think of a more original name for it?)


----------



## Boston Bulldog (Nov 30, 2012)

This should make it easier to get to Tramside from Stateside. No more need to traverse!


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 30, 2012)

Fail. Should have painted the towers yellow. HELLO!!


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 30, 2012)

Boston Bulldog said:


> This should make it easier to get to Tramside from Stateside. No more need to traverse!


No really, it is still a long and barely downhill slog to Tramside. The benefit here is you don't have to ride a T-bar if you are at the Stateside Lodge and want to go Tramside. If you are riding the Jet or Bonnie, you wouldn't take this lift to go Tramside, you would just pick up Taxi from the end of your run from Jet or Bonnie. This really benefits beginners most of all which is why the learning center is being built there.


----------



## gregnye (Nov 30, 2012)

It also allows for those "youngin'-snowboarders" to ride the terrain park without scraping all the snow off Upper Can Am! :razz:


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 30, 2012)

gregnye said:


> It also allows for those "youngin'-snowboarders" to ride the terrain park without scraping all the snow off Upper Can Am! :razz:


Yea, good call on that, forgot that one. And the really young snowboards can go shred in Disneyland.


----------



## JPTracker (Dec 3, 2012)

Just saw this in the November meeting minutes of the Jay Planning Commission/Zoning Board:



> Jay Peak Resort presentation:
> *Mattson permit renewal:* Mr. Walter Elander representing the resort presented a request to renew for two years the conditional use permit for the Mattson pit. This is used for the location of storage containers/ equipment and employee/overflow parking. Mr. Cushing stated the request does not require a new hearing. The board agreed to do a site review before extending the permit. The board scheduled the site review inspection for Tuesday, November 13, 2012 at 8:30 a.m.
> *Current projects update*: Mr. Elander stated the Golf & Mountain Suites project is ahead of schedule and they plan to have all seventy units open for Christmas. The Lodge and Townhouse Suites project, one building will completed in January, the other two will completed in February. The taxi lift will be finished tomorrow. The wedding barn is on hold as they are waiting for permits. The Mountain Learning Center is scheduled to open January 12[SUP]th[/SUP]. The Austria House is scheduled to open November 21[SUP]st[/SUP].with the second floor completed by mid December. The Sky Haus project has been delayed as they have had some problems with the tram and have run into safety issues with the building. This will be a two year project. They will have the snack bar in the building open on December 20th.
> *Resort parking & circulation*: Mr. Elander stated the resort has added 65 parking spaces at the stateside meadow. The tram parking deck- it was necessary to remove a piece of the area that was planned for parking so the deck will be approx. 30 spaces smaller. It will be open December 5[SUP]th[/SUP]. The mountain shuttle program, Mr. Tom Howell presented the resort wide shuttle plan. He stated the mountain is a destination resort and they hope guests will not have to use their cars once at the resort. He said guest safety is a top priority. He distributed a resort wide map showing the 6 different shuttle routes and the stops. He stated the mountain has invested in vehicles so they will have four new shuttle buses, 2 fifteen passenger and two 12 passenger, giving them a total of 6 buses. They will run daily from 5:00a.m. -11:00 p.m.  He said they will have more staffing so it will be clear where to park and where not to park. They plan to add 6 full time staff members. They will have a total of 22 parking attendants and 18-20 shuttle bus drives. .
> ...



Anyone know what safety issues they are having with the Sky Haus that are delaying the project?


----------



## mikestaple (Dec 3, 2012)

The time my then 5 year old being dragged along on his stomach on that Tbar while clinging to it for dear life are now just a sweet memory!


----------



## BigJay (Dec 3, 2012)

mikestaple said:


> The time my then 5 year old being dragged along on his stomach on that Tbar while clinging to it for dear life are now just a sweet memory!



It's alright, i remember being a 5 y.o with clumsy ski boots skills walking up to the Queen's T-Bar where the new Taxi quad is now. A long and hard walk.


----------



## JPTracker (Dec 3, 2012)

BigJay said:


> It's alright, i remember being a 5 y.o with clumsy ski boots skills walking up to the Queen's T-Bar where the new Taxi quad is now. A long and hard walk.



I remember riding up the Jet T-Bar. That was a ride!


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 3, 2012)

New hotel, 80 additional units, a faster 6 pack....  This has got to stop.   The trail system will NOT be able to sustain that much additional traffic.   The Angel's wiggle/northway intersection is already a zoo as it is, not to mention goat run that already gets more traffic than it can handle.


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 3, 2012)

The six pack is old news, though the quote above suggests that Jay has already "purchased" the six pack. I guess their wind study last season suggested that such a lift would be feasible? Here is hoping for lots of wind hold days. The Bonnie runs most of the time the Freezer is on hold. Pretty rare when they can't run the Bonnie but they can run the Jet (happens sometimes, not too often). Usually if the Bonnie is down, all upper mountain lifts are on hold. As such, a six pack with a lot of down time would mean everything except Stateside was open for earned powder. Bring in that six and hope for wind holds!

:beer:

The six will go to a higher elevation meaning folks can go from Stateside to Ullr's trails without having to either skate uphill to Wedelmaster or ski down to the Freezer. I suspect the additional uphill capacity from a six would even off from folks crossing mountain zones due to the upper mountain placement and access to Ullr trails.

The unknown here is how a high speed quad and a high speed six pack essentially dumping out at the same location will effect things on a more global perspective. That is essentially a high speed ten pack dumping skiers out in the same location with three main trail options: Northway, Goat, or Ullr's. I think it will be fine though, the options come pretty quick in all directions except Goat which is always a shit show already... and who really cares about the Goat? LOL. Goat and Alligator are trails to be endured rather than enjoyed to get someplace else.

I can't imagine it is going to impact traffic that much. Experts will manage just fine because they don't ski the main routes and intermediates and beginners will hate the place even more as the main routes get scraped down just a tad faster than they already do. 

Bring on the wind holds!!!

:beer:


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 3, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> The six pack is old news, though the quote above suggests that Jay has already "purchased" the six pack.



I heard from another source that the 6 pack has indeed been purchased (Doppelmayer).



riverc0il said:


> Bring on the wind holds!!!



I'll drink to that.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2012)

I like how it says a six pack quad :razz:


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2012)

gregnye said:


> And the Taxi Quad opens today!!!! :smile:
> 
> (they should have named it something better than just "taxi quad" though--of all places, the Jay Peak management always has the best humor! Why couldn't they think of a more original name for it?)
> 
> View attachment 6937



Got what you're saying, but Jay has used the name "Taxi" for some time now....


----------



## gregnye (Dec 4, 2012)

I actually am in full support of the 6-pack lift. It doesn't really change that much. I mean the chairs may hold 6 people, but they are planned to be spaced out further. Also, 6-packs are usually not that effective. Normally, only 5 out of the 6 people make it on the chair!! 

It also doesn't alter the "power-line" trail that much. You are either skiing around power-line poles or chair-lift poles...basically the same thing. The cliff will still be there--now you have an audience! And saint george's prayer will finally be used! Yay!

If anything, it will make people want to go all the way down to the stateside base area. Before, I would always ski to taxi and take taxi back to the flyer or go to the Jet triple--it was that faster. There are some good trails on the lower portion of the bonnie area that people don't ski--lower milk run being one of them!

I for one, will not be sad to wish that Bonnie quad farewell. 

BTW: they should seriously consider naming it the "Power-line 6-pack" (has that Raise 'em Jay ring to it)  :razz:


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 4, 2012)

Lower Milk is not to be talked about publicly! 

Personally, I am just fine with the Bonnie. Though I appreciate the idea of making the Jet a quad with the Bonnie's chairs. But I don't think the Bonnie is too long of a lift. I know it is worn out but I have yet to be inconvenienced by a break down, so it can't happen that often.

Hopefully they'll clean up Powerline when they put in the 6. There is a lot of junk on that trail that takes a long time to fill in.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2012)

Isn't the plan to make the Jet a HSQ?


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 4, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Isn't the plan to make the Jet a HSQ?


Not that I am aware of. Jet would get Bonnie's chairs is the impression that I was under.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Not that I am aware of. Jet would get Bonnie's chairs is the impression that I was under.




OK.  I knew that it was going to be upgraded to a quad, and I thought that at one time this was the plan but that they had also considered an HSQ.


----------



## JPTracker (Dec 4, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Not that I am aware of. Jet would get Bonnie's chairs is the impression that I was under.



That was the original plan when the Jet was supposed to replace the t-bar. Since they have a new quad for the t-bar replacement what will happen with the extra chair? Will the Bonnie Quad or Jet triple get moved to the West Bowl? My guess would be for the transfer lift.

What puzzles me is if the were going to replace the Jet with the Bonnie next summer then why did they go through the trouble of painting it?


----------



## BigJay (Dec 4, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> What puzzles me is if the were going to replace the Jet with the Bonnie next summer then why did they go through the trouble of painting it?



They're just attaching the chairs to the existing towers. They'll replace the wheels and pulleys... but towers remain the same.


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 4, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> What puzzles me is if the were going to replace the Jet with the Bonnie next summer then why did they go through the trouble of painting it?


That thought crossed my mind. I assume the towers have enough clearance for quad chairs and will be reused.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2012)

They can just keep the Bonnie where it is and use it as a back-up in windhold situations.

Or I can think of a new acquisition by Mr. Stenger that could find a place for the lift...in either the East Bowl or Dipper Areas.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Dec 4, 2012)

JPTracker said:


> That was the original plan when the Jet was supposed to replace the t-bar. *Since they have a new quad for the t-bar replacement what will happen with the extra chair? *Will the Bonnie Quad or Jet triple get moved to the West Bowl? My guess would be for the transfer lift.



Shhhh. It will become the new Ullr's Bowl Chair....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 4, 2013)

There is a new Act 250 application filed on January 2nd for the contruction around the new entrance road. The application contains a new master plan. There are a few modifications (e.g. the West Bowl layout has been tweeked and the lift that goes up toward the summit of Doll Peak has been shorten by about 400 linear feet/35 vert to avoid a wetland).
The trail in the orchard is still there. The new Stateside lodge covers an area from the Ski Partol Building all the way to the old lodge (about 340 feet long).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 4, 2013)

One of the bigger changes to the West Bowl area is the homes/condos along the Ullrs Runout are gone.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 4, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is a new Act 250 application filed on January 2nd for the contruction around the new entrance road. The application contains a new master plan. There are a few modifications (e.g. the West Bowl layout has been tweeked and the lift that goes up toward the summit of Doll Peak has been shorten by about 400 linear feet/35 vert to avoid a wetland).
> The trail in the orchard is still there. The new Stateside lodge covers an area from the Ski Partol Building all the way to the old lodge (about 340 feet long).



Do you have a link to the new master plan ?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 4, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Do you have a link to the new master plan ?



Unfortunately, the database is hard to create a direct link to since the links are all Java scripts.

Follow this link: http://www.anr.state.vt.us/ANR/ACT250/Act250.aspx
Type "Jay" into the Town Name field.
Click on "Detail" for the first listing (7R0854-12-1)
Look for the "Exhibit P43 - Concept Master Plan Version 5.pdf" documnet link about 2/3rds of the way down the page.


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 4, 2013)

Here you go

Master Plan
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...hibit P43 - Concept Master Plan Version 5.pdf

New Entrance
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...ns/Exhibit P1 - EPSC LTH2 - C5-10 Overall.pdf


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 4, 2013)

Thanks !

All of the major changes were rightly pointed out by from-the-NEK.  I still don't get the rationale for that trail through the orchard.  It has the same gradient as the Haynes and Jet (so it is not an intermediate trail) whereas the West Bowl has definitely a more intermediate gradient.  

However, I like the G6 glade very much.  There will be a 200 feet (vertical) hike up to the top toward the steepest gradient in the west bowl.  This will go a long way in helping us mourn the loss of the orchard.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 5, 2013)

Awesome find, NEK, and thanks for posting the link JPT. I think I might print that map and use it for a trail guide! Francois, your comment about the "Orchard trail" is spot on. It will be a lot like the Derick. G-5 and G-6 do look nice. 

A few things popped out to me:

- the legend indicates "revegetated ski trail" in shaded green. I assume that this means an existing trail will be closed and planted with new trees. Certain places makes sense, like the altered exit to Green Beret, but why close off the route skier's right of the "island" on Kitzbuhel? That is a good alternate route in certain conditions - why close it? 

- a few other new trials of note: an alternate exit to Kitzbuhel; sneak route for Angel's Wiggle (which I believe is an old trail being re-opened); the new trail below Canyonland (which we have discussed before) is still on the map and it looks like they want to extend the cat track exit from Andre's, making skiing "Beyond Beyond" more accessible (which could be good or bad). 

- can someone explain what is happening at Stateside with this plan? I see the new hotel. Is the red building (labelled "recreation centre") the current Stateside Lodge? What is the coral-coloured buidling just east of it? And where did the current (and recently expanded) Stateside parking lot go? Apparently replaced by a new sloped parking lot to the left of the Mtn Learning Centre.

BTW, I will be at Jay this Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday if any of you "development types" want to ski & complain together. Look for the greybeard wearing a bright red Patagucci jacket, grey pants and a helmet sporting stickers that say "use your head."


----------



## gregnye (Jan 5, 2013)

This is one of my most favorite threads on this forum! Thanks for keeping me informed! :-D


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 5, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> - can someone explain what is happening at Stateside with this plan? I see the new hotel. Is the red building (labelled "recreation centre") the current Stateside Lodge? What is the coral-coloured buidling just east of it? And where did the current (and recently expanded) Stateside parking lot go? Apparently replaced by a new sloped parking lot to the left of the Mtn Learning Centre.
> 
> "




Stateside lodge will be putdown this spring/summer.  That's why it does not show on the map.  The coral building is an existing big shed where they store/repair stuff (not sure what).  It is below the parking and out of sight.  I think the grayed out part is the current parking.  It's been leveled for a while.  I assume they are showing the original topography on the map.

Skiing was awesome today.  Just heading out for the last tram despite my legs being jelly.  Going back home tomorrow otherwise I would have gladly joined you for a few runs.  Enjoy your time at Jay.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 5, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Stateside lodge will be putdown this spring/summer.  That's why it does not show on the map.  The coral building is an existing big shed where they store/repair stuff (not sure what).  It is below the parking and out of sight.  I think the grayed out part is the current parking.  It's been leveled for a while.  I assume they are showing the original topography on the map.
> 
> Skiing was awesome today.  Just heading out for the last tram despite my legs being jelly.  Going back home tomorrow otherwise I would have gladly joined you for a few runs.  Enjoy your time at Jay.



Thanks, François, that makes sense now. I guess the topo does not show the leveling of the parking lot (I should have figured that out). There is a lot of nice wood in the Stateside building, hopefully some will get salvaged. Maybe they will auction off the picnic tables!

Good news about the skiing. As usual, I will be skiing leftovers but at least the holiday crowds will be gone. Maybe I'll see if I can ski the new line below Canyonland...


----------



## JPTracker (Jan 5, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Skiing was awesome today.  Just heading out for the last tram despite my legs being jelly.  Going back home tomorrow otherwise I would have gladly joined you for a few runs.  Enjoy your time at Jay.



Was also skiing today and the snow was great. Just had problems getting out of our condo because the drifts were so high.

Found out a couple interesting things today:

The problems they are having at the Sky Haus is a frozen sewer line. Whose bright idea was it to run the line above ground? It is attached the the snow making pipes going down Vermonter. 

Snow Making - Because of the restrictions Jay has on how much ground they can cover with snow making and the added snow making to the Boulevard and over by the Learning Center they will not be making snow on JFK or Exhibition this year. They also got fined for drawing too much water from the Jay Branch Brook last winter. What will happen when the open the west bowl. Will more snow making disappear on stateside to support the west bowl? Any plans for a bigger snow making pond? The new plan shows no changes here.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2013)

Today was A+. Total sleeper day with the snow not forecast, no one there, and lift hold making for great Tramside runs until noon. 

I noticed the lack of snow making on Exhibition and GMB. Very surprised as those are normally blown and groomed out. That really limits their groomed offerings Tramside. Not that I am complaining, natural conditions on Exhibition and GMB is delightful from my perspective. Surprised they don't have the Stateside Learning Center up and running yet, I was surprised they had only just started on blowing that. I was thinking they just decided to save money due to early season natural but restrictions make much more sense.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 5, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Was also skiing today and the snow was great. Just had problems getting out of our condo because the drifts were so high.
> 
> Found out a couple interesting things today:
> 
> ...



The top of the mountain is all rocks.  Would have cost a fortune to bury the pipe.  
Considering the slope of the pipe, there should not be any freezing problems.  The problem looked like it was linked to the septic tank and not the line itself, but I could be wrong.

Interesting stuff with respect to snowmaking.  I am not too sure why they have such regulations.  Water used for snowmaking goes back into the watershed comes spring.  It would seem to me that they made a lot more snow last year than this year so far.  Taking Beaver pond as an example, I don't think the west bowl will need much artificial snow.  This part of the mountain gets a lot of natural snow.   Early in the season when there is little snow, guests of the eventual hotel could take the lift to reach tramside.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> *Interesting stuff with respect to snowmaking.  I am not too sure why they have such regulations.*  Water used for snowmaking goes back into the watershed comes spring.



Environmental-Nazis that care _far more_ about the boost they get to their low self-esteem derived as _"righteous defenders of the environment"_ than from any actual and realized perceived benefits to the environment.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 6, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Environmental-Nazis that care _far more_ about the boost they get to their low self-esteem derived as _"righteous defenders of the environment"_ than from any actual and realized perceived benefits to the environment.



Wow. Thanks for the sweeping generalization there, BG, that really adds to the discussion. Maybe next time you could use a wider paintbrush and include Jimmy Carter and the Bicknell's Thrush.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 6, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Environmental-Nazis that care _far more_ about the boost they get to their low self-esteem derived as _"righteous defenders of the environment"_ than from any actual and realized perceived benefits to the environment.




Wow, you might persuade more people that you are correct if you were a little less insulting. Inserting the term "nazi" into the name of any group you disagree with makes you look like a tool. Just because someone doesn't share your vision of the world doesn't mean they have deep rooted self-esteem issues. You sound just as _righteous_​ as the group you are attacking.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Jan 6, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Interesting stuff with respect to snowmaking.  I am not too sure why they have such regulations.  Water used for snowmaking goes back into the watershed comes spring...



Water use regulations are in place to protect a diminishing resource that is in high demand: water. Jay uses water for not only for snowmaking, but the water park, ice rink, drinking, septic, and not least of all, the golf course. Then there are the people that live downstream, not to mention the critters that live in the stream, like trout, frogs and bugs. What are you going to do when the well runs dry? Someone has to keep an eye out, and that is what rules are for. I gather that you are an engineer - think about it: why do we need a building code?

A quote from a document well worth reading, publishing by those drooling tree-huggers over at Trout Unlimited:



> Snow quality and snow cover are two of the most sought-after criteria in a resort.
> 
> While the popularity of skiing and other winter resort sports is increasing, natural snow cover has been consistently decreasing due to a gradual regional warming. Snowfall has decreased across northern New England by almost 15% over
> the last half-century. Ski resorts increasingly must rely on artificial snowmaking to keep their mountains operational.
> ...



From: A Glass Half Full - The Future of Water in New England

The environ-meddlers at the Vermont Agency of Natural Resources have this say about water and snowmaking:



> AGENCY OF NATURAL RESOURCES
> ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION RULES
> CHAPTER 16
> WATER WITHDRAWALS FOR SNOWMAKING​ Section 16-01 Authority
> ...



Sorry, I lost the link to that document, which goes on for seven pages with the various regulations regarding water use for snowmaking. It is somewhere in here: http://www.anr.state.vt.us


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks for the info.  I am indeed an engineer, (hydrology engineer on top of that...)  but definitely not familiar with small mountain watersheds and environmental impacts.  I would have thought that the impacts of a golf course (where most of the pumped water goes back to the atmosphere) dwarf the ones from snowmaking.   I will educate myself, starting with the info you provided.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Maybe next time you could use a wider paintbrush and include Jimmy Carter and *the Bicknell's Thrush.*



I'm not sure how Jimmy Carter fits in, but there was already an exhaustive thread about the Bicknell's Thrush earlier this year. The current available research is specious at best, with the researchers admitting that it is not even a certainty that there is a problem with the bird's numbers in the first place.  But no matter, we will act and highly publicize it as though there 100% is a problem, and since we're "not sure" the only prudent thing to do of course is to proceed as if it is a threatened species (recurring MO over the years).  

I predict this issue rears its' head during some portion of Jay's West Bowl expansion (which is one of the reasons why I'm not optimistic it's going to happen), heaven forbid they should find a few nests a touch lower at say the 2600 level, etc...   But who knows, apparently Stowe somehow maneuvered around it.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

FWIW Jay and Burke once again appeared in SKI Magazine (page 22).  The short article was about the EB-5 investments.  You can't miss it since the magazine is a mere 68 pages long.  Pretty sad.....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> You can't miss it since the magazine is a mere 68 pages long.  Pretty sad.....



including 48 pages of advertisements.   Atleast it's minimal cost...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> including 48 pages of advertisements. Atleast it's minimal cost...




Yeah, minimal cost since we get ours for free from where we get our season passes.  :lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> including 48 pages of advertisements.   Atleast* it's minimal cost*...



As in free.   Does anyone pay for SKI Magazine anymore?  It seems more an more mags are going the free distribution route.  I've received SKI for free for 3 years now I think, and just yesterday I got an offer for free Rolling Stone.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 7, 2013)

Yeah I pay for it. LIke $10 a year.  Plus I just renewed through my sons school fundraiser.  


I guess I'm a chump...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yeah I pay for it. LIke $10 a year.  Plus I just renewed through my sons school fundraiser.
> 
> 
> I guess I'm a chump...



Download a coupon/deal app to your smartphone and you'll get a bunch of "free subscription" offers to various magazines over the course of the year.   Alternatively, anyone who attends the Warren Miller movie each year gets a free subscription as well.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2013)

I get ski magazine but I never ordered it...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 20, 2013)

On a side note for Jay: Google Earth has recently updated the Digital Elevation Model (DEM) in the area covering Jay. The summit is MUCH better defined and you can actually see the cutout that was made for the Tram terminal.

Old DEM:






New DEM:





The elevations are more accurate as well and now line up well with contours on the engineering drawings I have been overlaying.

This also give the mountain a 2021' vert in Google Earth.
3861' (top of the ridge) - 1840 (bottom of Village Double) = 2021'


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 20, 2013)

Pretty cool.  Google Earth still amazes me after all these years.

The Jay Peak official stats http://dev.jaypeakresort.com/skiing-riding/the-mountain
state the following:


SUMMIT ELEVATION3,968 feet (1,209 meters)BASE ELEVATION1,815 feet (553 meters)VERTICAL2,153 feet
they probably measure from the top of the antenna...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 20, 2013)

There are VERY detailed elevations on the Master Plan. elevation 1,815 is reached down where they park the tour buses below the main Tramside lot/garage.
3,856.7 at the summit 
I know we've had this debate before


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> There are VERY detailed elevations on the Master Plan. elevation* 1,815 is reached down where they park the tour buses below the main Tramside lot/garage.*
> 3,856.7 at the summit



Totally legit.  I ski that all the time.  Ohhhh......wait......   

Seriously though, for the sake of honesty, they should just quietly change it on the website during the summer to reflect reality.


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 20, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Totally legit.  I ski that all the time.  Ohhhh......wait......
> 
> Seriously though, for the sake of honesty, they should just quietly change it on the website during the summer to reflect reality.



I mean, there is an official  benchmark at the very summit PG1686 3862 feet.

Why they would quote anything higher than that is beyond me.

I'll make sure to ski all the way to the golf course to maximize my vertical next time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       National Geodetic Survey,   Retrieval Date = FEBRUARY 20, 2013 PG1686 *********************************************************************** PG1686  DESIGNATION -  JAY PEAK PG1686  PID         -  PG1686 PG1686  STATE/COUNTY-  VT/ORLEANS PG1686  COUNTRY     -  US PG1686  USGS QUAD   -  JAY PEAK (1986) PG1686 PG1686                         *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL PG1686  ______________________________________________________________________ PG1686* NAD 83(1996) POSITION- 44 55 27.15617(N) 072 31 32.58172(W)   ADJUSTED   PG1686* NAVD 88 ORTHO HEIGHT -  1177.     (meters)    3862.    (feet) SCALED     PG1686  ______________________________________________________________________ PG1686  GEOID HEIGHT    -        -27.47  (meters)                     GEOID12A PG1686  LAPLACE CORR    -          0.33  (seconds)                    DEFLEC12A PG1686  HORZ ORDER      -  SECOND PG1686 PG1686.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods PG1686.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in May 1998.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 20, 2013)

I will say this, the new DEM in Google Earth signifantly improves how the West Bowl looks as well. This DEM is incredibly detailed.


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> There are VERY detailed elevations on the Master Plan. elevation 1,815 is reached down where they park the tour buses below the main Tramside lot/garage.
> 3,856.7 at the summit
> I know we've had this debate before


Is 1815' the bottom of the condo double, maybe?

Not that I would defend Jay on this one. I've been strongly hostile to their vertical feet statistic.


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 20, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Is 1815' the bottom of the condo double, maybe?
> 
> Not that I would defend Jay on this one. I've been strongly hostile to their vertical feet statistic.




from_the_Nek rightly took the bottom of the condo double at 1840.  The tram exit is right at 3841.   So it has a legit 2001' vertical (let's round it at 2000), although you could argue that skiing the ridge from the top puts the total vertical at 2023.  Would be interesting to do a compilation of _true vs stated_ vertical by the various ski resorts.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 21, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Would be interesting to do a compilation of _true vs stated_ vertical by the various ski resorts.



There was a thread about that on here last winter I think.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 10, 2013)

*Stateside Lodge demolition day is April 8*

My brother and sister both have lockers at Stateside. They got the notice to clear their stuff out by April 2, as the old lodge is coming down on the 8th. They have been assured that current locker holders have guaranteed lockers in the new building and that they will be in by the first week of December, 2012. 

So, get down there and take a deep breath in the washroom of your choice, before it is too late. I, for one, have lots of memories in that building but I have too admit that it is time for an upgrade.

I hope some of you regulars will be able to get pictures of the tear-down. I would make the trip just for this event but will be in sunny Cuba doing the beach thing.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks for the tip, SBR. I would feel my life was never complete if I didn't have one last time to bask in the putrid stink of Jay's Stateside bathrooms. The uncertain look guys give each other in the 2nd floor bathrooms when trying to figure out how three guys can line up for a piss at the same time without losing their man hood is priceless. I'd be there for the tear down but only if it is going to be a celebration, bon fire style.

On a serious note, late season at Jay is going to be teh suck without that lodge. Are they going to line up portapoties at the Jet? Or are they going to ask people to go Tramside? What about when operations go to stateside only? Those of us without season passes are going to need to drive to Tramside and then drive back with our tickets? Oh wait, I need to do that any ways for my vouchers. But that is a big much to ask someone to do when paying full fair. Hopefully they are not going to shut everything down once Tramside can no longer be connected?


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 10, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> On a serious note, late season at Jay is going to be teh suck without that lodge. Are they going to line up portapoties at the Jet? Or are they going to ask people to go Tramside? What about when operations go to stateside only? Those of us without season passes are going to need to drive to Tramside and then drive back with our tickets? Oh wait, I need to do that any ways for my vouchers. But that is a big much to ask someone to do when paying full fair. Hopefully they are not going to shut everything down once Tramside can no longer be connected?



That is the big question and we wondered about it as well. Maybe they will open up the Mountain Learning Center as a temporary lodge. Or, in typical Jay logic,  make you park at Statside and take a shuttle bus over to Tramside to get a ticket. Thankfully I have a pass and would suffer the indignity of putting my boots on at the car rather than park at Tramside.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 10, 2013)

Suffering an indignity at Jay? Why I never...

All the tailgaters better be out there in force this year whether stateside lifts are turning or not. Who knows if they'll let them tailgate in front of the new lodge and the view certainly won't quite be the same either...

...at least they'll be able to have a clean bathroom, regardless.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 11, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> ...at least they'll be able to have a clean bathroom, regardless.



The main problem is that most Jay visitors value clean bathroom way more than a nice view of the hill and easy access to the chair.  

Had a great run in Canyonland yesterday.  Actually thought of you while skiing it... :lol:


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 11, 2013)

:beer:

I could probably make a really funny video by skiing Canyonland with a GoPro and posting a POV of me skiing it and cursing the whole time.

:lol:


----------



## BigJay (Mar 11, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> :beer:
> 
> I could probably make a really funny video by skiing Canyonland with a GoPro and posting a POV of me skiing it and cursing the whole time.
> 
> :lol:



Yes. Please do!


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 19, 2013)

On a sad note, heard that Jay Peak is planning to close on Sunday April 21st.  Apparently, the power to run the jet goes through the Stateside Lodge and to stick to the schedule, power will have to be shut down by that date.

Looks like there will be No May skiing this year.   The way this late March is shaping up, there should be some great turns on the jet for those willing to earn their turns one month from now.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2013)

That is a bummer. The timeline to get the old buildings/lifts torn down and the new lift and hotel/lodge built and operational by Mid-November(?) is an incredibly tight timeline. Maybe just the lift will be operational by then and the new lodge erected but not finished.
I wonder if they keep Tramside open longer if conditions warrant?
I was also going to suggest they move their spring operations to Burke. But Burke is kind of in the same boat with the construction of their new hotel/lodge and possibly work in East Bowl as well.


----------



## St. Bear (Mar 19, 2013)

I was at Jay on Sun, and in the Demo shop on the laminated trail map on the counter, next to the Proposed Expansion, someone wrote 2016 in marker.  This is probably not news to those of you who follow this closely, but that seems really far away.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 19, 2013)

*The deal*

For the sake of reality (I know, why throw that into the mix, right?), a few notes.

In order to try to deliver the new baselodge and Hotel for Christmas, and assuming permits are in hand which aren't as of yet, we'll need to stop ops on the Jet as of April 21 to begin the process of moving power.  We're also planning an end of State Chalet (Chalet Shakedown) for Sunday April 6th and will be announcing those plans either today or tomorrow--bonfire notwithstanding, we hope you all can make it.  If permits drag a bit, we'll continue to push the close date of the Jet--it's almost day-to-day at this point.

Right now we're looking at possibly pushing snow to the Taxi Quad area to try and at least have something (predicated on something existing) for last weekend in April/May.  We'll keep you in the loop as that plan develops.  Definitely not ideal, especially from one's perspective who likes to push it as hard as possible, but we're without much choice on this one.  We'd be happy to keep Tramside open but options are on the limited side given run outs and the probability of limited cover.  

Them's the facts.  More to come.



fbrissette said:


> On a sad note, heard that Jay Peak is planning to close on Sunday April 21st.  Apparently, the power to run the jet goes through the Stateside Lodge and to stick to the schedule, power will have to be shut down by that date.
> 
> Looks like there will be No May skiing this year.   The way this late March is shaping up, there should be some great turns on the jet for those willing to earn their turns one month from now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> * If permits drag a bit, we'll continue to push the close date of the Jet-*-it's almost day-to-day at this point.



 Unless the permitting process is more efficient in n.VT than everywhere else in America, I'm guessing the Jet stays a bit longer. ;-)


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 19, 2013)

Right but, unbearable emoticon aside, this isn't a process we initiated 45 minutes ago either.  My guess, at least at this point, is we'll have it in time.



BenedictGomez said:


> Unless the permitting process is more efficient in n.VT than everywhere else in America, I'm guessing the Jet stays a bit longer. ;-)


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback Steve. As of the Marrh 14th review, it looks like approval of the Act 250 permit for the Powerline 6 got delayed by five days while a stream buffer encroachment issue is figured out. It sounds like that issue may result in the bottom terminal being moved a lttile further downhill (toward the new lodge ).
I'm guessing JPR is waiting on final approval of that permit before issuing the Act 250 application for the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge?


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 19, 2013)

Mostly right.  The Lift and Hotel 250's are close, but completely separate.  We're resolving different stream buffer issues on both which, as you noted, will result in a lowering of the bottom terminal by 25-30'.  



from_the_NEK said:


> Thanks for the feedback Steve. As of the Marrh 14th review, it looks like approval of the Act 250 permit for the Powerline 6 got delayed by five days while a stream buffer encroachment issue is figured out. It sounds like that issue may result in the bottom terminal being moved a lttile further downhill (toward the new lodge ).
> I'm guessing JPR is waiting on final approval of that permit before issuing the Act 250 application for the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge?


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 19, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Right but, unbearable emoticon aside, this isn't a process we initiated 45 minutes ago either.  My guess, at least at this point, is we'll have it in time.



While we're at it, been hearing rumours about the 6-pack.  Is it still a go for this summer ?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Mostly right.  The Lift and Hotel 250's are close, but completely separate.  We're resolving different stream buffer issues on both which, as you noted, will result in a lowering of the bottom terminal by 25-30'.


I figured they were separate. I wonder why the Hotel's application isn't on the Act 250 website? I've been waiting to model it in Google Earth


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> While we're at it, been hearing rumours about the 6-pack.  Is it still a go for this summer ?


Assuming the stream buffer issue is resolved, I think it is a go. That parking lot is going to be nuts with material for both the lift and the hotel being laid out for construction.


----------



## BigJay (Mar 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Assuming the stream buffer issue is resolved, I think it is a go. That parking lot is going to be nuts with material for both the lift and the hotel being laid out for construction.



 I would prefer a lower season's pass price. At the rate e season's pass as been going up in e past 3 years, we don't know if we'll spend more time in the bc in the next couple of years!


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 20, 2013)

We're freezing or lowering all of our Season Pass rates this year.  You're a big roller fella, you can swing it.



BigJay said:


> I would prefer a lower season's pass price. At the rate e season's pass as been going up in e past 3 years, we don't know if we'll spend more time in the bc in the next couple of years!


----------



## BigJay (Mar 20, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> We're freezing or lowering all of our Season Pass rates this year.



All i needed to hear! Thanks Steve.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2013)

Plans for the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge up on the Act 250 site. 

A bit different design from Tramside buildings. I really like the integration of the Jay Peak logo into the peak of the building.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...plans/Exhibit P14 - Isometric Views A2-00.pdf

Oh, and it looks like someone kind of stole my google earth rendering job


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 22, 2013)

Good find NEK! Not that we didn't see it coming but it sure does block the view of the mountain. My brother will be pissed. He loves the parking lot view.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 23, 2013)

Looks a little plain and bland compared to the Tram Haus and Hotel Jay.  I still don't get why they are putting hotels over at Stateside.  They should be putting all the lodging Tramside to create a pedestrian friendly base village, and leave stateside for day skiers.  For example there will be people staying at Stateside that will want to use the Waterpark and/or Resturaunts at Tramside.  Why make everybody drive or take buses to get between the resorts amenities.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> Looks a little plain and bland compared to the Tram Haus and Hotel Jay .



The tramhouse lodge is by far the best looking building out there.  The main facade of the new hotel is one big rectangle that lacks architectural details. As to why they did not locate it tram side- I think it was a lot simpler to put it there and they really needed to upgrade state lodge anyway. It might also provide ski in ski out at a lower price point to those not interested in the aqua park.

I thought the golf cottages would be empty most of the time but if looks like they are one of the most popular accommodation, probably due to their lower price point.  The improved shuttle service works quite well.

My main concern is with crowds.  New visitors come and they love the place.  Word on the street in Montreall is that you pretty much need to book NOW for next year spring break. They need the west bowl now to thin out the crowds and provide wind proof terrain.


----------



## BigJay (Mar 23, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> Looks a little plain and bland compared to the Tram Haus and Hotel Jay.  I still don't get why they are putting hotels over at Stateside.  They should be putting all the lodging Tramside to create a pedestrian friendly base village, and leave stateside for day skiers.  For example there will be people staying at Stateside that will want to use the Waterpark and/or Resturaunts at Tramside.  Why make everybody drive or take buses to get between the resorts amenities.



Yes.create a mini village... Disney stuff like tremblant. Not spread it out all over any piece of available land. Concentrate the activity tram side and keep stateside for skiersmwho don't mind (much) a stinky bathroom and basic burgers and fries... Noneed for 2-3 restaurant option stateside... We got that tramside.

Too late!


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 23, 2013)

The proposed lodge looks kinda bland. Not a great trend. Tram Lodge great, Hotel Jay okay, Stateside meh. All lack a distinctive and unique architecture, all three buildings could have been located any where. Was thinking about this while making a rare visit to Bolton today. Their buildings are old, small, and not very functional (at least from a day tripper perspective) but they are at least distinctive and different, they are part of Bolton's identity. I don't look at those buildings and think a design firm has probably built a few dozen just like it.

Agreed bummer on the lack of view of the mountain from behind the lodge. 

Look at those stairs on the right hand side of the building. Looks like more than two floors with of stairs. I guess if you are going to Taxi chair, that gets you quite a bit higher than the existing chalet before you need to start hoofing it up the snow.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 23, 2013)

The stairs struck me as well. Looks like a big hike up to... what? Look at the other side and the elevation drops down a level. Faaaacccckkk, I just hiked up these stairs and then I'm going down? 

I have been trying to hold back. But really, rivercOil is correct, it is a barn.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 24, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> The stairs struck me as well. Looks like a big hike up to... what? Look at the other side and the elevation drops down a level. Faaaacccckkk, I just hiked up these stairs and then I'm going down?
> 
> I have been trying to hold back. But really, rivercOil is correct, it is a barn.



The stairs make sense from the point of view of the hotel clients.  They don't want to make them walk to the lifts in the morning.  They'll probably have the ski lockers near the top of the stairs or at least an elevator away.

On the other hand, the repositioning of the lifts entails to quite a bit of going up anyway.  The taxi quad is up quite away and the Bonnie will be just as high.  The stairs will make it easier.

I'll admit that for day trippers, this is not a welcome change.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 24, 2013)

Beaver Creek has a series of 3 escalators to get guest up to and then back down between the snow surface/lifts and the main base village drop off area. Was WAY better than stairs, especially when you've got kids and all the gear for you and them.

Who knows, maybe Jay will continue to impress and innovate and you'll be standing, not hiking up that area on the conceptual map......


----------



## kingdom-tele (Mar 24, 2013)

drjeff said:


> Beaver Creek has a series of 3 escalators to get guest up to and then back down between the snow surface/lifts and the main base village drop off area. Was WAY better than stairs, especially when you've got kids and all the gear for you and them.
> 
> Who knows, maybe Jay will continue to impress and innovate and you'll be standing, not hiking up that area on the conceptual map......




a new generation of raised J?

nothing screams NEK like shedding tears over a 100ft uphill walk, think of it as a warm up for the long cold lift ride 

looking forward to the magic carpet for my car up 242, that road is really rough, and the snow can be slippery at times


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 24, 2013)

drjeff said:


> Beaver Creek has a series of 3 escalators to get guest up to and then back down between the snow surface/lifts and the main base village drop off area. Was WAY better than stairs, especially when you've got kids and all the gear for you and them.
> 
> Who knows, maybe Jay will continue to impress and innovate and you'll be standing, not hiking up that area on the conceptual map......


Clearly drjeff is in the target demographic of all of these changes. It ain't the rest of us concerned Jay skiers. Not knocking you drjeff, just making an observation based on your observation. In my world, if I ever see escalators at a ski area to transport me to the slopes, I'm turning around and getting back in my car.


----------



## BigJay (Mar 24, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> a new generation of raised J?
> 
> nothing screams NEK like shedding tears over a 100ft uphill walk, think of it as a warm up for the long cold lift ride
> 
> looking forward to the magic carpet for my car up 242, that road is really rough, and the snow can be slippery at times




sure thing. A magic carpet to bring you get back from the dip. People from Jersey will get excited.

that walk up to the lifts was never as bad as it's going to be... Think of it, you were walking slowy, contemplating the mountain and the snow that piled up since the groomers did their work.

now, you'll be walking up stairs, freshly shoveled with tons of sand and salt. You,ll have to walk between the cafe and cigarette buds from guests. After a 10min hike, you 'll start to see the mountain... And the lift line!


...thne you'll remember how peaceful things use to be!


i'll miss the stateside globes all lit up as i you're coming down a last run from the tram on a snowy and dark december evening... That's my Jay moment i'll always remember.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Mar 24, 2013)

BigJay said:


> sure thing. A magic carpet to bring you get back from the dip. People from Jersey will get excited.
> 
> that walk up to the lifts was never as bad as it's going to be... Think of it, you were walking slowy, contemplating the mountain and the snow that piled up since the groomers did their work.
> 
> ...



Not to worry big jay, they will have some framed pics hanging in the back hallways you will be able to relive those memories through


----------



## drjeff (Mar 24, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Clearly drjeff is in the target demographic of all of these changes. It ain't the rest of us concerned Jay skiers. Not knocking you drjeff, just making an observation based on your observation. In my world, if I ever see escalators at a ski area to transport me to the slopes, I'm turning around and getting back in my car.



No knock taken Riv! Just saying what i've seen at other places. And let's be honest, the Jay of 2013 (and likely beyond) isn't exactly the Jay of 10 years ago (and more) about who they're targeting as a desired demographic


----------



## kingdom-tele (Mar 25, 2013)

drjeff said:


> No knock taken Riv! Just saying what i've seen at other places. And let's be honest, the Jay of 2013 (and likely beyond) isn't exactly the Jay of 10 years ago (and more) about who they're targeting as a desired demographic




but, but, but, it's unchangeable!

look forward to the new marketing campaign, a line up of people riding a magic carpet to the lift 100ft away in a raging snow squall all huddle together, the caption will read...

RESILIENCE...

...not everyone is cut out to ride a carpet. Raise'em Jay.


----------



## JPTracker (Mar 25, 2013)

BigJay said:


> now, you'll be walking up stairs, freshly shoveled with tons of sand and salt.



Haven't you noticed at the new Hotel Jay. No ice or salt on the walkways. They installed heating pipes in the stairs and sidewalks to eliminate the ice. Way to go green.


----------



## BigJay (Mar 25, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Haven't you noticed at the new Hotel Jay. No ice or salt on the walkways. They installed heating pipes in the stairs and sidewalks to eliminate the ice. Way to go green.



Nope. Haven't noticed. Haven't walked up those stairs in the winter. Smart move!

Wonder if they'll pave the parking on stateside to make it more "urban shoes" friendly... who needs winter boots anyways!


----------



## BigJay (Mar 25, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> Not to worry big jay, they will have some framed pics hanging in the back hallways you will be able to relive those memories through



As long as they post photos of the old days, i'll have something to point a finger at! Like an old man: "Remember when we had to walk in the snow to get to the lifts? No stinkin' carpet to get you movin back then"


----------



## billski (Mar 25, 2013)

shakedown tailgate
April 6th


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 25, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> *if I ever see escalators at a ski area to transport me to the slopes, I'm turning around and getting back in my car*.



THIS.  

Good God, I hear crap like this and it makes me want to strap myself to a place like Plattekill (hippy + redwood tree style) and make sure it never goes anywhere.



BigJay said:


> A magic carpet to bring you get back from the dip.* People from Jersey will get excited.*



You're not staying current with your Vermonter-held stereotypes; according to WCAX, we're still lost in the woods somewhere off Killington.



drjeff said:


> *let's be honest, the Jay of 2013 (and likely beyond) isn't exactly the Jay of 10 years ago (and more) about who they're targeting as a desired demographic*



I'm beginning to think Jay Peak is desperately looking up to Stowe, like the unathletic valedictorian who wants to be the high school quarterback instead - he may sadly never realize that being the smartest kid in school was actually really cool, and try as hard as he may he's never going to throw the football better than that quarterback he wishes he was.



JPTracker said:


> Haven't you noticed at the new Hotel Jay. No ice or salt on the walkways.* They installed heating pipes in the stairs and sidewalks to eliminate the ice. *Way to go green.



Yeah, you can afford that when you're being handed boatloads of EB5 money.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 25, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm beginning to think Jay Peak is desperately looking up to Stowe, like the unathletic valedictorian who wants to be the high school quarterback instead - he may sadly never realize that being the smartest kid in school was actually really cool, and try as hard as he may he's never going to throw the football better than that quarterback he wishes he was.


I think the exact opposite. Jay is doing its own thing without a care for Stowe. I don't think Jay sees Stowe as a major competitor. Stowe's development is upscale and exclusive. Jay's development is lowest common denominator: kids love waterparks, parents like all in one slopeside park your car and forget about it. Unless you have big bucks at Stowe, you are still staying off mountain and driving in and then going back into town or the access road for evening fun. Stowe is targeting NYC, Jay is targeting Montreal. Jay is throwing everything and the kitchen sink into its base area. Stowe has limited growth targeting resort amenities and upscale resort living. Jay owns their land and can do anything they can get a permit for. Stowe has a lot more restrictions. 

I don't know what I feel about Jay any more. At first, I was like "yea, cool, hockey rink, waterpark, whatever." The skiing is still the same, I can deal with the silly development if the skiing is still great. We'll see how things look with Stateside fully built out. I dunno. The skiing can only be so good to allay the general feel of the area. I was putting my boots on in the Tram lodge on Sunday when like a dozen skating families came through with their gear walking towards the Tram Lodge elevator. It just takes me out of the moment, ya know? These other people aren't here to ski... they are resorting. Which is exactly what JPR is going for and doing well at. How good can the skiing be to off set that? If it was almost any other mountain, I'd be done with it already. :-?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 25, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> I don't think Jay sees Stowe as a major competitor.



I dont either, I just meant it seems to me there's perhaps a case of "resort envy" going on.  



riverc0il said:


> I don't know what I feel about Jay any more. At first, I was like "yea, cool, hockey rink, waterpark, whatever." *The skiing is still the same*,



Well, this is the bit I _am_ worried about.  I was there a few weekends ago and it was crazy crowded before lunch.  I dont know what happened at about 12:45pm, but it was like it emptied out quite a bit and from then to 4pm was crowded but manageable.  But from open to about noon it was so packed it was nauseating.  The line for the Flyer went way back up the ski hill!  I wouldn't pay $6.90 for a lift ticket for that let alone $69, and thank God it emptied out after lunch. 

 I'm still a fan of the place, but if situations like that get any worse, I'm out.  The reality is that there are only so many buses from Quebec loaded to 100% capacity that the place can handle.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 25, 2013)

Were you there on a QC vaca week? I've skied Jay six times this year I think and the only long line I experienced is when the Jet was the only lift running due to wind. Jay certainly is getting more visitors. The snow is tracking out a bit faster. But many of those guests are in the waterpark instead of skiing when it is cold so a bit of a mixed bag. Jay at Peak can be hell. But I've found that is the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> How good can the skiing be to off set that? If it was almost any other mountain, I'd be done with it already. :-?



To each their own, but this kind of view somewhat baffles me.

I moved to Stowe in the fall of 1995 having never even skied there prior.  I visited the summer prior and said, "this is where I want to skibum for the winter."  I skied Jay for the 1st time that season too.  Both places were pretty "raw" and have undergone massive transformations; in someways Jay even more than Stowe with their Water Park.

Despite the changes, I enjoy skiing Stowe every bit as much today as I did back then.  I rarely get to Jay, but when I do, I love it every bit as much as I did back in 1995.

I guess the auxiliary stuff doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does some others.  If I saw kids walking through the lodge with ice skates, I'd probably think to myself, "Good deal, a few less people on the hill and off doing something else."


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 25, 2013)

The auxiliary stuff at Jay is much more present than Stowe. If you just ski the Mount Mansfield side, the only change that has really happened recently is the Over Easy *shrug*. Things are a little different over at Spruce but Mansfield side hasn't changed much in a long time.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion about Jay next time you ski there, especially next year once the Stateside Lodge is up and a the Six goes in. Have you been there in the past two years? 

I don't know how this view can baffle you. Of course, it isn't how you see things but how does it baffle you that someone else appreciates all of the surroundings as part of the experience rather than just the skiing? Some people enjoy a mountain not just for the skiing but for the vibe a place gives off. Which is one reason Magic is still open, for example. And why Mad River went with a Single instead of a Double when the time came. It is a big reason why many of us enjoy smaller areas like Black NH and Abram ME. It isn't just the terrain. Some places just feel special for some reason we have a hard time explaining. And multi-million dollar investments change those special places and then we don't know how to feel about it because it feels a little different. Maybe you don't subscribe to that but I am surprised that it would baffle you so.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 25, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> To each their own, but this kind of view somewhat baffles me.
> 
> I moved to Stowe in the fall of 1995 having never even skied there prior.  I visited the summer prior and said, "this is where I want to skibum for the winter."  I skied Jay for the 1st time that season too.  Both places were pretty "raw" and have undergone massive transformations; in someways Jay even more than Stowe with their Water Park.
> 
> ...



I agree 100 percent here. I could care less how they spend or build at the base of the resort and honestly am only concerned with what happening directly on the hill....as long as i can park and get on the hill lol.

Vail Resorts has taught me that just because there's a line up at the lift doesn't always mean the good stuffs getting tracked out faster...well maybe at their Colorado properties seeing most of the terrain is low angle.

I should make a point to get up to Jay this spring so I can see the changes first hand, its been awhile


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2013)

Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes.  It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there.  That's a bit over the top IMO.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 25, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes.  It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there.  That's a bit over the top IMO.


I'm still skiing Jay. Maybe I got a little over zealous in my commentary.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 25, 2013)

snoseek said:


> I agree 100 percent here.* I could care less how they spend or build at the base of the resort and honestly am only concerned with what happening directly on the hill.*...as long as i can park and get on the hill lol.



So you're agreeing with both of them.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 26, 2013)

I agree with DHS and no I haven't been there in 5 years or so.  What the new "ammenities" brings to the table in my life, is it is an attractive place to bring the entire family.  My son would've been fin with the "old" Jay Peak, because he does like to ski.  But he'd love to go skiing and then to the water park at night. my wife, who is an upper intermediate skiier would love that there are other things to do all day than ski and will probably love the west bowl terrain when/if it ever opens.

I think you can still enjoy the skiing and "look past" the "development" at the base.  The Analogy to Vail is 100% on.  I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is.  I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where, and ride the lift to the top and never look back. then I get in my car and go back to silverthorne or Dylan and spend my money. 

I kind of understand all the griping, but in my opinion it doesn't change the skiing that everyone has come to love.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 26, 2013)

I should know better than to wade into the swamp here.  I'll add, only, that I agree with bits and pieces of everything--except for the Stowe envy which is equal parts adorable and uninformed.  The conversation did spark a lovely memory I hold dear.  I was at the first Highgate GD Show in 1994 (I believe) and, with 200 shows under my belt, was definitely a member of Deader-Than-Thou Nation, thumbing my nose at people who I perceived weren't there for the right reasons.  I said something to the effect of 'All of these new people don't even appreciate what it used to be like.'  My friend, with fewer shows under his belt but at least as much vigor says, 'What people?'  Thanks for helping me remember this.



jimmywilson69 said:


> I agree with DHS and no I haven't been there in 5 years or so.  What the new "ammenities" brings to the table in my life, is it is an attractive place to bring the entire family.  My son would've been fin with the "old" Jay Peak, because he does like to ski.  But he'd love to go skiing and then to the water park at night. my wife, who is an upper intermediate skiier would love that there are other things to do all day than ski and will probably love the west bowl terrain when/if it ever opens.
> 
> I think you can still enjoy the skiing and "look past" the "development" at the base.  The Analogy to Vail is 100% on.  I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is.  I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where, and ride the lift to the top and never look back. then I get in my car and go back to silverthorne or Dylan and spend my money.
> 
> I kind of understand all the griping, but in my opinion it doesn't change the skiing that everyone has come to love.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 26, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes. It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there. That's a bit over the top IMO.



I look at it this way.  Skiing/Riding is going on for 8hrs a day, maybe 6 months a year. That's only 1/6th of the total time available in a year.  Auxillary "stuff" can often taken place, and draw customers, 100% of the year.  If it was just "Jay Peak *Ski Area"* not Jay Peak *RESORT* then auxillary items wouldn't be as necessary as they are for a 12 month resort (and the esteemed Steve Wright wouldn't have as much to do year round  ).  

Auxillary items can 100% have a symbiotic relationship with what initially drew such a devote following in the first place.  And just because they might not appeal to some, doesn't mean that they don't apppeal to others.  And let's be honest, its the ski BUSINESS, and unless they're turning a profit, then they're risking NELSAP status  (not that Jay is anywhere close to that these days, just making a ski industry generalization there, since i'm sure if you polled all the ski resort GM's and marketing directors, even in a GREAT season, they'd still all answer that they want MORE business!   )


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The Analogy to Vail is 100% on.  I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is. * I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where*, and ride the lift to the top and never look back..



You have to pay for parking at Vail?



Steve@jpr said:


> Iexcept for the Stowe envy which is equal parts adorable and uninformed.



Yes, it was clearly a ludicrous suggestion on my part to suggest that Jay Peak is moving much closer to a Stowe type business model. 

 Please do forgive me though, I think the excess heat from the _Jay Peak Taiga Spa_ must have gone to my head while I was getting my facial and pedicure.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 26, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> You have to pay for parking at Vail?




yes, like $20 in a parking garage or lot.  Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi) they put it which takes you up to mid vail.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Mar 26, 2013)

drjeff said:


> I look at it this way. Skiing/Riding is going on for 8hrs a day, maybe 6 months a year. That's only 1/6th of the total time available in a year. Auxillary "stuff" can often taken place, and draw customers, 100% of the year. If it was just "Jay Peak *Ski Area"* not Jay Peak *RESORT* then auxillary items wouldn't be as necessary as they are for a 12 month resort (and the esteemed Steve Wright wouldn't have as much to do year round  ).
> 
> Auxillary items can 100% have a symbiotic relationship with what initially drew such a devote following in the first place. And just because they might not appeal to some, doesn't mean that they don't apppeal to others. And let's be honest, its the ski BUSINESS, and unless they're turning a profit, then they're risking NELSAP status  (not that Jay is anywhere close to that these days, just making a ski industry generalization there, since i'm sure if you polled all the ski resort GM's and marketing directors, even in a GREAT season, they'd still all answer that they want MORE business!   )



what is good for business doesn't have a direct correlation with what may be a good experience


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yes,* like $20 in a parking garage or lot.  Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi)* they put it which takes you up to mid vail.



  I do a lot of things on principal in life, which some people may find silly (or not), but I would not ski somewhere that charges for parking.  

Wifi in the gondola doesnt bother me though, to me that's just keeping up with technology.  On the other hand, if they put cell phone scramblers in the gondala that wouldn't bother me either.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 26, 2013)

No, ludicrous is constructing an argument based on the need to dish your silly high school quarterback parable.  Not to mention trying to align our business models based off the fact that both of us now have spas.  Go take a look at their pricing model/sensibilities, their lack of focus on base area attractions, their lack of shoulder season focus and their lack of discounting, and report back.  

And I'm assuming that even we, in dire need to revenue, would stop short of touching your toes.



BenedictGomez said:


> You have to pay for parking at Vail?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> No, ludicrous is constructing an argument based  on the need to dish your silly high school quarterback parable.  Not to  mention trying to align our business models based off the fact that both  of us now have spas.  Go take a look at their pricing  model/sensibilities, their lack of focus on base area attractions, their  lack of shoulder season focus and their lack of discounting, and report  back.



Though it was an example I used, I think it  obvious that the similarities in newer business paths/models extend  beyond the fact both "now have spas", and I never said you and Stowe are  going for the exact same customers.  Jay is seeking to become very much  like one of the few big boys on the block from what it has been in the  past.   Perhaps Stowe wasnt the best comparison (or perhaps it was the best comparison), but I'll stand by the gist of the point.



Steve@jpr said:


> And I'm assuming that even we,* in dire need to revenue*, would stop short of touching your toes.



I'm  a finance/accounting person, but I've never handled EB-5 money.  It's  technically an investment of course, so according to GAAP rules, I  believe it should be a_ liability_ on Jay Peak's balance sheet and not  _revenue_?

Sounds very complicated though (the EB-5 accounting that is,  not the toe touching).


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 26, 2013)

Yes but, and alas, pedicure money drops right to the bottom.



BenedictGomez said:


> Though it was an example I used, I think it  obvious that the similarities in newer business paths/models extend  beyond the fact both "now have spas", and I never said you and Stowe are  going for the exact same customers.  Jay is seeking to become very much  like one of the few big boys on the block from what it has been in the  past.   Perhaps Stowe wasnt the best comparison (or perhaps it was the best comparison), but I'll stand by the gist of the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## drjeff (Mar 26, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yes, like $20 in a parking garage or lot. Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi) they put it which takes you up to mid vail.




$25 bucks a day in the parking Garages at both Vail Village and Lionshead. $33 a day at Beavercreek   Both charge just during operation hours and not during evening "restaurant hours" They do have a pretty good, free shuttle service that runs around the majority of lodging areas in Vail and a seperate one at Beavercreek. But to ride the shuttle bus that runs the 7 or 8 miles between Vail and Beaver Creek, it's $8 for adults and $4 for kids. When my family was out there a few weeks ago, we stayed at Beaver Creek, but when we went to Vail, we actually drove as it would of been $24 to take the bus for me and my wife and our 2 kids, but $25 to park the suburban we had, and then we weren't at the mercy of the bus schedule for the extra $1.

Kind of sucks for sure.  But it is what it is, and frankly once we got on the hill there, if they had been charging $50 to park, I wouldn't of complained. Since it's the hill that gets you there (a common theme the last few pages of this thread)


----------



## drjeff (Mar 26, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> what is good for business doesn't have a direct correlation with what may be a good experience



And what constitutes a "good experience" for you may not be what constitutes a good experience for another 

Jay just seems to be doing a GREAT job recently at trying to give it's customers, both existing, current, and future a WIDE option of things to do, that will make hopefully more of them than not WANT to come back, and not just during snow sliding season. One of the key areas of attention in the ski industry now IS how to make a resort a year round income stream source. And especially in Vermont these days, there's a BIG range of examples of this.  Heck, even Magic has a pretty sweet looking ropes course now as a way to help attract some summer business.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 26, 2013)

drjeff said:


> And what constitutes a "good experience" for you may not be what constitutes a good experience for another
> 
> Jay just seems to be doing a GREAT job recently at trying to give it's customers, both existing, current, and future a WIDE option of things to do, that will make hopefully more of them than not WANT to come back, and not just during snow sliding season.* One of the key areas of attention in the ski industry now IS how to make a resort a year round income stream source. *And especially in Vermont these days, there's a BIG range of examples of this.  Heck, even Magic has a pretty sweet looking ropes course now as a way to help attract some summer business.



Mid Atlantice "resorts" like my home hill of Ski Roundtop have been doing this for years.  Ski Roundtop has a full slate of "adventure" attractions in the summer and they utilize the snow tubing area as the base including a resturant/bar that has live music on the weekends.  

Year round revenue = more snow making and a reason for people to come back in the winter and/or summer!


----------



## Nick (Mar 26, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> I should know better than to wade into the swamp here.  I'll add, only, that I agree with bits and pieces of everything--except for the Stowe envy which is equal parts adorable and uninformed.  The conversation did spark a lovely memory I hold dear.  I was at the first Highgate GD Show in 1994 (I believe) and, with 200 shows under my belt, was definitely a member of Deader-Than-Thou Nation, thumbing my nose at people who I perceived weren't there for the right reasons.  I said something to the effect of 'All of these new people don't even appreciate what it used to be like.'  My friend, with fewer shows under his belt but at least as much vigor says, 'What people?'  Thanks for helping me remember this.



Kids these days. Back in my day....


----------



## kingdom-tele (Mar 26, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Mid Atlantice "resorts" like my home hill of Ski Roundtop have been doing this for years. Ski Roundtop has a full slate of "adventure" attractions in the summer and they utilize the snow tubing area as the base including a resturant/bar that has live music on the weekends.
> 
> *Year round revenue = more snow making and a reason for people to come back in the winter and/or summer*!




the reason for coming back I thought had been established decades ago  

I'm confused, its not about the amenities but it is about the amenities all at the same time.

@drjeff - no doubt. but it would be nice if not every place felt just like every other.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> *I'm confused, its not about the amenities but it is about the amenities all at the same time.*



I think that's the tightrope they're attempting to walk.  

The fact that some can see it both ways probably means they're doing an okay job of it so far.  Time will tell.  This Stateside business will be the next landmine for them to navigate.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 26, 2013)

Rendering complete.
The good view is from the middle of the parking lot now...


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 26, 2013)

Something seems off with that angle. The Jet is way too prominent and the Peak and Bonnie seem way too distant. Probably just Google Earth not being perfect.

I'm not going to argue against the fact that Jay's business plan is genius. Nor that people will buy the product and eat it up. I'm in the minority. I'm not against resorts increasing the bottom line. But I do appreciate a more laid back experience. Just my preference. 

I will say that seeing a bill board for the waterpark on the Tram access road was an eye opener. At first, I looked at the image (a crazy eyed kid enjoying the water) and thought "genius marketing". After I got home, I thought "damn, a billboard in VT". 

The experience is different even if the mountain hasn't changed. You can argue for or against it. You can choose to overlook that aspect or perhaps it matters not to you. But the fact remains that the place feels different. And it is fine for folks not to see it that way as long as they acknowledge it is because they are looking through different glasses. Though it strikes me odd that people would comment without having actually been there. But lens and all maybe that wouldn't change opinion.

I am going to be happy to be able to take a leak Stateside without the pissers being so close that I'm rubbing elbow with someone else while taking a leak. That must might be worth it all right there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2013)

Haven't been in two years, but I did drive around from Stateside to Tramside to check out the changes when I was up there (we made turns together on Jet that day).  I'll certainly acknowledge that it was a big change (and I know the changes now are probably double what I saw), but not a change that would even be in my mind if it were midwinter and I was skiing down Face Chutes or Everglade.

Same goes for Stowe.  When I'm standing on the Chin or skiing down Goat, the behemoth lodging complex across the street is the furthest thing from my mind.

And at Killington this past weekend.  This is different from auxiliary development, but I saw some world class douchebaggery at the base areas and in the parking lots.  When I was lapping Julio and Anarchy all of that crap was the furthest thing from my mind.

I guess for me where I only get out on the hill 25 days per season on average, my mind is pretty dialed in on the skiing.  I don't have time to worry about anything else.  If the auxiliary stuff is what mountains feel they need to do, then it is what it is.  It obviously affects other patrons more or should I say, differently than it does myself.  It's maybe for the same reason that I don't go gaga over how "old school" MRG is.  I enjoy the terrain tremendously and that's what I'm there for, not the "vibe".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> I'm not going to argue against the fact that *Jay's business plan is genius.*



Find a Chinese or South Korean guy with $500,000 who wants a VISA. Repeat numerous times.  Yup, it's pure genius, I'm not gonna argue against that one.



riverc0il said:


> I will say that seeing a bill board for the waterpark on the Tram access  road was an eye opener. At first, I looked at the image (a crazy eyed  kid enjoying the water) and thought "genius marketing". *After I got  home, I thought "damn, a billboard in VT". *



Is that legal now, I thought that wasnt allowed?  I was just there too, dunno how I missed that, will have to look for it next week.



deadheadskier said:


> And* at Killington this past weekend.*  This is different from auxiliary  development, but *I saw some world class douchebaggery at the base areas  and in the parking lots.*



Dont leave us hanging like that....


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2013)

In the parking lot when heading out for the day, there were a couple of SUVs (one from NY, the other GA) playing chicken with one another and yelling fighting words over who deserved to be first out of the parking lot.  Plenty of people trying to skip others in line at the SPE and K1.  Just numerous episodes of aggressiveness all around.  Kind of sucked to see, but when I was skiing, none of it really mattered.  The chicken match my wife and I found highly entertaining actually.  :lol:  Really wish they crashed into each other.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 26, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that legal now, I thought that wasnt allowed?  I was just there too, dunno how I missed that, will have to look for it next week.


It is a gigantic sign on private property, I don't think they are running afoul of the law. I'm playing a little fast and loose with the definition calling it a billboard.

And when I referred to the business plan, I meant building up on mountain amenitities including lodging, concerts, waterpark, ice rink, food, spa, etc, etc, etc. EB5 is the financing part of the plan, I wouldn't consider that the genius part so much as the "duh" part.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 26, 2013)

If you imagine some tree in between you and the jet in that picture, it would make it look a little farther away.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> EB5 is the financing part of the plan, *I wouldn't consider that the genius part so much as the "duh" part*.



I may be biased, but I consider the financing the genius part (even if I strongly disagree with it).

Without the financing, there is no _"building up on mountain amenities"_.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 26, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Rendering complete.
> The good view is from the middle of the parking lot now...



Well, at least if we sleep in we are assured of a parking spot with a view. 

Did anybody else notice the sugar shack motif on the roofline of the new lodge? It's a nice touch.

Sorry for being mundane but it is hard to keep up with you guys.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 27, 2013)

I uploaded the model to the 3D warehouse (this one was a lot easier to build than the dual axised Mid-Burke). Feel free to download for Google Earth.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=484139a7e325942cabbd4f2282d3f160

A few more views.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 27, 2013)

And by the look of the contours on the plan. The Powerline HS6 will be a flat traverse from the top of the stairs.

The Taxi Quad will be 14 feet higher.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 27, 2013)

Wow, incredible. FTN FTW!

That is amazing how the intruding angle of the lodge brings it so much closer to the 6 Pack, eliminating a lot of trudging. I assume they'll also pave/walkway a big chunk of real estate in front of the building. Only 14 feet higher to the Taxi substantially reduces the uphill trudge BUT you have to climb three floors of stairs to get there, so you are climbing either way. Makes sense to climb stairs instead of hiking up the snow, that will be easier. Hopefully no escalator though. 

I assume the section of the building furthest from the lifts and closest to the outside stairs is the day lodge and the rest is the hotel? Too bad, I'd love to be able to walk through their and cut out half the skate to the Jet. Looks like the hotel goes almost to the bridge to the Jet. 

Where does JPSP go since it appears their building is gone?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2013)

Holy crap, that thing looks ridonculously huge.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2013)

I question the logic all together of having hotel lodging over on Stateside.  Wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate all the lodging at Tramside?  I would think the restaurants/bars/waterpark/hockey rink would see maximum usage by concentrating all of the lodging guests within walking distance of those facilities.  Maybe they lack space over there for more.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I question the logic all together of having hotel lodging over on Stateside.  Wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate all the lodging at Tramside?  I would think the restaurants/bars/waterpark/hockey rink would see maximum usage by concentrating all of the lodging guests within walking distance of those facilities.  Maybe they lack space over there for more.



I think you're correct on both points.  In fact, my assumption is they'll have to price the rooms a bit lower for this reason during most times of the year.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 27, 2013)

There is absolutely no space Tramside. They don't have enough space for what is already over there. They had to build a top deck garage just to get all the cars in there and then they still overflow to the expanded stateside lot on their busiest days. There is literally no where to put anything else Tramside, totally built out and they had to squeeze to get it all in there and still have parking.

Lodging Stateside works as long as they have food in the lodge. Some people may prefer a more laid back experience. The learning center is over there, too, so that is quick access for those with little kids. But the kids may like the waterpark. They'll need a shuttle for that, quick trip via shuttle to Tramside. Fact is, if they are selling out of lodging, then they could use more beds and they ain't going to fit more in Tramside.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I question the logic all together of having hotel lodging over on Stateside.  Wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate all the lodging at Tramside?  I would think the restaurants/bars/waterpark/hockey rink would see maximum usage by concentrating all of the lodging guests within walking distance of those facilities.  Maybe they lack space over there for more.



If I did not have other options, I would definitely prefer staying at Stateside than Tramside -as long as I could have a cup of coffee and a quick bite to eat before heading out to ski. If they price it right and provide basic amenities like coffee makers and microwaves in the rooms, Stateside lodging will appeal to the "serious skiers" and lower budget families.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Mar 28, 2013)

Gomez is right--adr in this hotel will be lower than THL or Hotel Jay-not necessarily because of geography but the index of groups/teams that will likely be staying there across many periods. Ppricing will be quite a bit lower than what you'd expect a new ski-in/out property would be.  Plan is for a small resto in the Hotel and typical base lodge cafeteria abutting.  No kitchens/kitchenettes in rooms.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> If I did not have other options, I would definitely prefer staying at Stateside than Tramside -as long as I could have a cup of coffee and a quick bite to eat before heading out to ski. If they price it right and provide basic amenities like coffee makers and microwaves in the rooms, Stateside lodging will appeal to the "serious skiers" and lower budget families.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 28, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Gomez is right--adr in this hotel will be lower than THL or Hotel Jay-not necessarily because of geography but the index of groups/teams that will likely be staying there across many periods. Ppricing will be quite a bit lower than what you'd expect a new ski-in/out property would be.  Plan is for a small resto in the Hotel and typical base lodge cafeteria abutting.  No kitchens/kitchenettes in rooms.



OK, now that you are dishing, will there be anything resembling a bar or lounge area? You know, comfy chairs with a view of the hill?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Where does JPSP go since it appears their building is gone?





Sick Bird Rider said:


> OK, now that you are dishing, will there be anything resembling a bar or lounge area? You know, comfy chairs with a view of the hill?



Floor plans here:

1st floor. Ski patrol on the on the Jet facing end of the building (the bridge is only 150 feet away from this end of the hotel), seasonal lockers, retail space.
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-12-2/plans/Exhibit%20P16%20-%20Floor%201%20A1-01.pdf

2nd floor: 134 seat restaurant, 272 seat/456 locker "scramble" (cafeteria/day lodge). Bathrooms.
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-12-2/plans/Exhibit P17 - Floor 2 A1-02.pdf

3rd floor (the level at the top of the stairs): 134 seat bar/lounge. 584 15" lockers. More bathrooms. Rental shop.
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-12-2/plans/Exhibit P18 - Floor 3 A1-03.pdf


4th floor only covers the hotel side. It looks like the ceiling of the bar/lounge is going to be high.
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-12-2/plans/Exhibit P19 - Floor 4 A1-04.pdf


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 28, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> OK, now that you are dishing,* will there be anything resembling a bar or lounge area?* You know, comfy chairs with a view of the hill?



How could there not be.   Alcohol is one of the highest margin things you can sell, and how could you have a ski lodge/hotel without a cool bar/lounge to hang out in.   The (ski) natives would riot with lanterns and pitchforks!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2013)

To be fair, there isn't a bar in the current Stateside lodge. But you can buy beer there.


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 28, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> How could there not be.   Alcohol is one of the highest margin things you can sell, and how could you have a ski lodge/hotel without a cool bar/lounge to hang out in.   The (ski) natives would riot with lanterns and pitchforks!



That why I buy from a liquor store and bring it to the bar, so much cheaper that way.:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 28, 2013)

Wow, look at all that retail space, damn!

SBR... would the Ski Club room constitute the new Raven Room?

Patrol has GOT to be loving this!

That is an unreal amount of lockers.

Wish there was more day visitor space. The chalet has always been too crowded. Maybe I am not visualizing it correctly, but it doesn't look like a lot of space in the cafeteria. 272 seats, it says. I'd estimate that is less than the current chalet counting downstairs and upstairs (especially if you could wall seating around the parameter). But 182 seats in the bar. And I assume the Ski Club room will have seats. Perhaps a slight increase in capacity when you factor everything in but I bet the cafe is still going to be a mob scene on weekends. Very sad as a day tripper to see that.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2013)

Very cool intel.

So, bottom line: once this is done and Jay is irrevocably ruined, what will be the mtn that takes its place as the most awesome place to be?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> Very cool intel.
> 
> So, bottom line: once this is done and Jay is irrevocably ruined, what will be the mtn that takes its place as the most awesome place to be?



Burke!

Until those bastards ruin it too!  

:lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 28, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> Very cool intel.
> 
> So, bottom line: once this is done and Jay is irrevocably ruined, what will be the mtn that takes its place as the most awesome place to be?





deadheadskier said:


> Burke!
> 
> Until those bastards ruin it too!
> 
> :lol:



Smuggler's Notch

Until the largely artificial inorganic growth spurred by EB-5 dollars allows them to buy Smuggs too. I'll give it 8 to 10 years.  By which time, the unintended negative consequences that always occurs when monkeying with economic markets will become complete.

Oh well, live for today. Jay's still currently a great place.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2013)

maybe, but remember, Smuggs had Water Slides long before any other old school VT area thought it was cool.  :lol:


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 28, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, look at all that retail space, damn!
> 
> SBR... would the Ski Club room constitute the new Raven Room?
> 
> ...



Ski Club = Racers. A room not likely not open to the hoi polloi but you can't begrudge the race program their space. The great thing about the Raven Room (despite the smell) is that you could set up a base camp, hang out by the lockers, eat your lunch, boot up, whatever. The new locker space looks like a place to get your stuff and move along. No windows, no tables, just benches and lockers. I wonder who the "Adult Inst. Lkr" space between the "Unprogrammed Space" and "dry storage" is for? Maybe staff or ski patrol lockers. 

One can only hope all those blocks along the wall of the cafeteria are awesome cubbies for day users. I just noticed the lockers on the second level - presumably htose are for day users but are a long way from where you put your boots on. 

FTNEK - great work in tracking this down and posting!


----------



## JPTracker (Mar 29, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> That is an unreal amount of lockers.



The lockers on the second floor are most likely for the hotel guests and not for public use. I know the THL has a room of lockers, one for each room in the hotel.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 29, 2013)

The bathrooms on the 3rd floor are kind of in a weird spot. You have to go through the bar to get to them. The third floor bathroom has 3 urinals and 2 toilets. Maybe they are figuring most people coming inside to a potty break are going to use the easier to get to (from the door) 2nd floor bathroom instead. 
However, that 2nd floor Men's room only has three total flushable units (1 urinal, 2 toilets). On the plan it looks like there is a space for another urinal but it is empty. 4 toilets in the Women's side. IMHO if that lunch room is at capacity with 272 people in there, that may lead to some lines during busy periods. With all the complaining about the bathrooms in the old Stateside lodge. I would think a little more effort to make an easy to get to highly functional bathroom would be a high priority .


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 29, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> The lockers on the second floor are most likely for the hotel guests and not for public use. I know the THL has a room of lockers, one for each room in the hotel.



I think the room marked 228 may be the hotel guest lockers.


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 29, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The bathrooms on the 3rd floor are kind of in a weird spot. You have to go through the bar to get to them. The third floor bathroom has 3 urinals and 2 toilets. Maybe they are figuring most people coming inside to a potty break are going to use the easier to get to (from the door) 2nd floor bathroom instead.
> However, that 2nd floor Men's room only has three total flushable units (1 urinal, 2 toilets). On the plan it looks like there is a space for another urinal but it is empty. 4 toilets in the Women's side. IMHO if that lunch room is at capacity with 272 people in there, that may lead to some lines during busy periods. With all the complaining about the bathrooms in the old Stateside lodge. I would think a little more effort to make an easy to get to highly functional bathroom would be a high priority .



How do you know how many toilets are in the womens bathroom? Experience in their lol.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 29, 2013)

The building hasn't been built yet. It is on the floor plan. 
And as bad as the mens room smells in the old Stateside lodge, I wouldn't want to bother checking out the womens room. It may smell worse :-o


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 29, 2013)

It will be easy to identify a Stateside regular in December 2013: they  be the ones wandering around looking really lost and confused. I am sure the new lodge will be nice but I am not looking forward to the first few visits. After a lifetime of skiing at Jay, I have a certain routine, as I am every other Jay regular does. You put your skis on the same rack, go in the same door, sit at the same table, chat with pretty much the same people, hang your bag on the same hook, and so on. It is very comforting. Now, there will be new territory to stake out, new patterns to learn, and a whole new way of living at Jay. We'll figure it out but these dogs aren't good at new tricks.


----------



## BigJay (Mar 30, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> It will be easy to identify a Stateside regular in December 2013: they  be the ones wandering around looking really lost and confused. I am sure the new lodge will be nice but I am not looking forward to the first few visits. After a lifetime of skiing at Jay, I have a certain routine, as I am every other Jay regular does. You put your skis on the same rack, go in the same door, sit at the same table, chat with pretty much the same people, hang your bag on the same hook, and so on. It is very comforting. Now, there will be new territory to stake out, new patterns to learn, and a whole new way of living at Jay. We'll figure it out but these dogs aren't good at new tricks.



The new Jay 3.0... Change is good... Right? Don't want to loose the vibe and tailgate like today... 
...part of why we've been there forever...


----------



## dlague (Apr 3, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> It will be easy to identify a Stateside regular in December 2013: they  be the ones wandering around looking really lost and confused. I am sure the new lodge will be nice but I am not looking forward to the first few visits. After a lifetime of skiing at Jay, I have a certain routine, as I am every other Jay regular does. You put your skis on the same rack, go in the same door, sit at the same table, chat with pretty much the same people, hang your bag on the same hook, and so on. It is very comforting. Now, there will be new territory to stake out, new patterns to learn, and a whole new way of living at Jay. We'll figure it out but these dogs aren't good at new tricks.



Right on!  We were like that when the Tramside was being built out!  The old land marks were changing!  However, the original Tram building is still in the same place which is where we have always gone to gear up!  If it is open, we often sneak into the Intl' Room to gear up and have the whole room to ourselves!


----------



## dlague (Apr 3, 2013)

I feel like I need to get something out there!  There is talk about Jay peak being ruined - When the first changes came along (THL and a few other things), I did not really notice.  Then they added phase II (Water Park and Hotel Jay)  I have to say I still did ot really notice with the exception of everything looking different on the Tram side.  I am pretty sure when the Stateside changes are in place, I will ski there and probably not really notice all that much since I typically have always gone to the Tram side.

I personally go there to ski and my family (wife and kids all still love Jay Peak).  We do not generally stay there and we are day trippers - the buildings are used to change, eat and drink and that has been a great improvement!

So when people say it is ruined - the skiing is still the same and looks to improve!  Just don't hang out in the building as much and you will never know!


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 8, 2013)

dlague said:


> I feel like I need to get something out there!  There is talk about Jay peak being ruined - When the first changes came along (THL and a few other things), I did not really notice.  Then they added phase II (Water Park and Hotel Jay)  I have to say I still did ot really notice with the exception of everything looking different on the Tram side.  I am pretty sure when the Stateside changes are in place, I will ski there and probably not really notice all that much since I typically have always gone to the Tram side.
> 
> I personally go there to ski and my family (wife and kids all still love Jay Peak).  We do not generally stay there and we are day trippers - the buildings are used to change, eat and drink and that has been a great improvement!
> 
> So when people say it is ruined - the skiing is still the same and looks to improve!  Just don't hang out in the building as much and you will never know!



I care very little about what they do outside of skiing.  Fact is that the Stateside building is old and decrepit and I am happy it will be gone.   I just disagree with '_the skiing is still the same_' part.   The water park, ice rink and new hotels have been very successful for Jay. They are bringing a lot more people on the hill and it has been quite obvious over the last 4 years.  So while this success is good for the long term viability of the resort, it has in fact undoubtedly had an effect on the skiing by putting more people on the hill, and this has a real impact, no matter how Steve is spinning this.  Yep, the lift lines are still reasonable, but Saturday lines are getting up to par with many other resorts.  Snow is getting tracked quicker.  

There was a huge increase in traffic this year compared to last year.   Lines extending outside the ropes are now common on saturday on the Flyer whereas they were a fairly rare occurrence before.   You used to be able to get on the Tram with little to no wait after 2PM on Saturdays.  45 minutes wait for the tram is now very common until late Saturday afternoon.

The new hotel and new condos will bring even more people to the slopes.  To be fair, the increase is not as bad as I expected since a lot of the additional traffic is diverted to the waterpark, especially on cold days, but the additional traffic on the ski hill is clear and undeniable, especially on nice days.   I would love to see the evolution in the number of skier days over the last 4 years.

The skiing is still great and Jay peak is still an awesome mountain, but the skiing experience is somewhat being diminished.  This is why we need the West bowl.


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 8, 2013)

I will back up fbrissette on this one. Not a pass holder but I still get to Jay about a half dozen times a year. It tracks out noticeably faster than four years ago. Places I used to always rely on as "sure shots" are often times pounded faster than more obvious lines. You definitely don't get as much powder as you used to since it is being spread around. More people are out there sacking the goods. Which is fine, you would expect that with more people on the mountain. But the skiing product has definitely decreased in value since it gets hit harder. Not only have the on mountain amenities been increased but day tickets dropped and early bird season pass prices are still really low for a mountain of Jay's quality plus I am sure many are drawn by the Burke add on and Burkie's probably added on as well. The six pack will further impact condition degradation speed. Next year should be interesting and I'll be watching closely as I plan on jumping back into the season pass market for 2014-2015. At this point, I have no idea if I'll go back to Jay or not... something I couldn't believe I would have written a few years ago when I dropped my pass to play the field and ski a bunch of new to me mountains.


----------



## dmw (Apr 8, 2013)

Slightly off topic, but I had asked in another thread if you guys knew about orange tree markings I spotted - I was back and got a picture this weekend. This was somewhere in Andre's/Beaver, and you can see another marked tree in the upper right background.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 8, 2013)

Limit between state foest and jpr land... That's how it's marked in a lot of places. They have acquired that part i believe.


----------



## dmw (Apr 9, 2013)

That makes sense - thanks.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Apr 9, 2013)

*Spun out.*

Not saying, at all, that our lift ticket sales haven't increased this year (they have, and they have each of the past 8 out of 10 seasons as Riv partially suggests) only that, and this is a matter of subjectivity, they haven't increased to the point where the mtn experience, wait times or overall have become an issue relative to what most would be considered tolerable.  I agree, you'll see spots get tracked quicker, but I'm not sure any of us could have expected to grow the business without seeing this happen to some extent--same goes for lift lines.  I was on the hill nearly every Saturday this year and I will say, the Saturday I was at Okemo for my daughter's snowboard race, dwarfed anything I saw at Jay Peak.  I have the data that supports waterparkers and hockey players are not buying lift tickets so your suggestion that this new index is clogging up your fun, isn't supported with actual metrics.  What I think is happening is some level of cannibalization from other resorts by virtue of weather proofing and lots of media impressions.  We'll see, over the next several seasons, whether this is one (or two) and done, or it's sustainable at any level; I hope it is.  What I think is connected here is that a certain expectation bar has been set (relative to acceptable wait times for sure) at Jay Peak that is predicated off of past experiences.  This is understandable for sure.  I think that plays into how people define a wait time to be egregious or the amount of time tracks are expected to be fresh.  It will be an interesting few seasons ahead for sure.



fbrissette said:


> I care very little about what they do outside of skiing.  Fact is that the Stateside building is old and decrepit and I am happy it will be gone.   I just disagree with '_the skiing is still the same_' part.   The water park, ice rink and new hotels have been very successful for Jay. They are bringing a lot more people on the hill and it has been quite obvious over the last 4 years.  So while this success is good for the long term viability of the resort, it has in fact undoubtedly had an effect on the skiing by putting more people on the hill, and this has a real impact, no matter how Steve is spinning this.  Yep, the lift lines are still reasonable, but Saturday lines are getting up to par with many other resorts.  Snow is getting tracked quicker.
> 
> There was a huge increase in traffic this year compared to last year.   Lines extending outside the ropes are now common on saturday on the Flyer whereas they were a fairly rare occurrence before.   You used to be able to get on the Tram with little to no wait after 2PM on Saturdays.  45 minutes wait for the tram is now very common until late Saturday afternoon.
> 
> ...


----------



## riverc0il (Apr 9, 2013)

One thing I'll be interested to see is if the high speed six relieves lines on the Jet. We all know that the average skier loves high speed lifts (goodness knows how many people still ride the freezer). If the average skier has to pick between a fixed grip and a high speed, they are going to get their face blown off for sure. Might mean that traffic at the Jet goes down. Which serves my purposes quite well... raid a few high speed powder laps and chew up the powder 50% faster on the Bonnie and then head over to the Jet when joe average family skier is just getting outta bed. Ski untracked and uncrowded Jet for hours while everyone rides the Bonnie outta the new hotel. Might work. And goodness knows more lift holds on the Bonnie also suits me just fine. Much as with most change, there will be ways to take advantage of new unintended benefits.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2013)

I will be interested to see if the new lift has wind problems.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> *They are bringing a lot more people on the hill *and it has been quite obvious over the last 4 years.  So while this success is good for the long term viability of the resort, *it has in fact undoubtedly had an effect on the skiing by putting more people on the hill, and this has a real impact*, no matter how Steve is spinning this.  *Yep, the lift lines are still reasonable, but Saturday lines are getting up to par with many other resorts.  Snow is getting tracked quicker.  *
> 
> There was a huge increase in traffic this year compared to last year.   Lines extending outside the ropes are now common on saturday on the Flyer whereas they were a fairly rare occurrence before.   You used to be able to get on the Tram with little to no wait after 2PM on Saturdays.  45 minutes wait for the tram is now very common until late Saturday afternoon.



The simple solution to this if this trend continues and it becomes problematic with the crowding, is to simply increase lift ticket prices.  They'll make up the $ in the higher prices what they'll lose in volume.  Of course, that's an obvious negative too as nobody wants to pay more, especially not the oldtimers and loyalists.



Steve@jpr said:


> * What I think is happening is some level of cannibalization from other resorts by virtue of weather proofing and lots of media impressions. * We'll see, over the next several seasons, whether this is one (or two) and done, or it's sustainable at any level; I hope it is.



It seems to me it's twofold:

1) Many people want to come see all the shiny new stuff they've heard about.  It's my perception that there have been a_ lot_ more people at Jay Peak with trail maps in their hands (so to speak) the last few years. If true, this "boost" will be temporary and probably only last 3 or 4 years.

2) I think the intense marketing to the Montreal and broader Quebec market has definitely paid dividends.  It sometimes seems as if it's English, and not French, that is the second language spoken at Jay Peak.  While there were always Quebecois at Jay due to the close proximity to Canada, it's dramatically noticeable now.


----------



## BigJay (Apr 9, 2013)

I feel there is less... Somehow feel we're invaded by massachusset!


----------



## BigJay (Apr 9, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> One thing I'll be interested to see is if the high speed six relieves lines on the Jet. We all know that the average skier loves high speed lifts (goodness knows how many people still ride the freezer). If the average skier has to pick between a fixed grip and a high speed, they are going to get their face blown off for sure. Might mean that traffic at the Jet goes down. Which serves my purposes quite well... raid a few high speed powder laps and chew up the powder 50% faster on the Bonnie and then head over to the Jet when joe average family skier is just getting outta bed. Ski untracked and uncrowded Jet for hours while everyone rides the Bonnie outta the new hotel. Might work. And goodness knows more lift holds on the Bonnie also suits me just fine. Much as with most change, there will be ways to take advantage of new unintended benefits.



Won't happen. I'll still be ripping the Jet early...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 10, 2013)

Built a model for the Powerline base terminal and chair barn.


View from the new Stateside Bar.







View coming back from the Jet.


----------



## vermonter (Apr 10, 2013)

This may just be me, or does it seem that the storage barn for the chairs is blocking access from the lodge. It looks, if I'm envisioning this right, that skiers will have to traverse up a tad then come back down on the other side to access the lift.

Seems kind of funky to me.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 10, 2013)

The pictures above are using the elevations in Google Earth. The installation of the new lift will include a lot of regrading of that area. The chair storage building and the Lift terminal will be on the same elevation when it is finished. The nice thing about the chair barn is that it should block the wind while you are standing in line.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2013)

So Bonaventure is definitely going?


----------



## BigJay (Apr 10, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The pictures above are using the elevations in Google Earth. The installation of the new lift will include a lot of regrading of that area. The chair storage building and the Lift terminal will be on the same elevation when it is finished. The nice thing about the chair barn is that it should block the wind while you are standing in line.



...exactly like the old barn for the. Bonnie double.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 21, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Even though it appears to not make sense,  serious rumours about the 6 pack not happening this year are floating  around.  I specifically asked Steve about this in the 'conceptual plan'  thread and he did not address the question.  There are a few hypothesis  about why it would be delayed, but one thing is sure, we'll know soon.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using AlpineZone mobile app



I also heard the rumor that they missed the deadline for signing the contract for the new lift for delivery for next season. I kind of dismissed it because it just doesn't make sense to not do it now. I know most of the towers need to be removed by helicopter but what doesn't make sense is why did they leave the cable in place? Also why were the chairs and drive put in the maintenance parking lot just below the Jet. I would have thought that these would have been put out in their graveyard for storage and later use in the West Bowl and out of the way of all the construction for the new hotel / baselodge.

Or are they really going to replace the Jet triple with the Bonnie like the original plan called for.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 24, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Oh and a IMAX theater? First I've heard of it but may be that it goes  into the "recreation center" that is just across the parking lot from  the soon-to-be-built Stateside Hotel/Lodge. This center has been on all  of the Master Plans but no word on what would be in it. At roughly  150'x85' (estimated size from the master plan), an smallish IMAX may fit  in there. Most rural IMAX ever?



From the April 8, 2013 Planning Commission & Zoning Board Meeting Minutes:
http://www.jayvt.com/index.asp?Type=NONE&SEC={5DF662C1-47F9-4F1A-AA78-2339124E601B}



> Mr. Elander stated resort plans for 2014 will be a Medical Center, a Recreational center on Stateside, more Residential Units will be added on the East side of the resort and this will complete the current EB 5 obligations for the resort



The Power Line Lift was discussed breifly giving the impression the project is still a go.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 24, 2013)

The Act 250 site still doesn't indicate an approved permit for either the new lift or hotel. Both applications had a few modifications. I'm wondering if the full removal of the Bonnie is contingent on the permits coming through. Removal of the chairs a base terminal could probably be done without a permit since those task result in little to no ground disturbance. Pulling the haul rope and towers is likely more invasive requiring the permit before continuing.


----------



## Telemechanic (Apr 30, 2013)

I think the absence of an official announcement from Jay about the proposed State Side six-seater is a bad omen for the project. I suspect only the lodge will be built in 2013 and the Bonny will be shortened and used for another season.


----------



## fbrissette (May 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Act 250 site still doesn't indicate an approved permit for either the new lift or hotel. Both applications had a few modifications. I'm wondering if the full removal of the Bonnie is contingent on the permits coming through. Removal of the chairs a base terminal could probably be done without a permit since those task result in little to no ground disturbance. Pulling the haul rope and towers is likely more invasive requiring the permit before continuing.



That could explain why they have not already proceeded with the removal of the old stateside lodge.  The original plan was firm in shutting the station on April 21.  Good for us it did not happen as it gave us an extra week-end with outstanding conditions.


----------



## JPTracker (May 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Act 250 site still doesn't indicate an approved permit for either the new lift or hotel. Both applications had a few modifications. I'm wondering if the full removal of the Bonnie is contingent on the permits coming through. Removal of the chairs a base terminal could probably be done without a permit since those task result in little to no ground disturbance. Pulling the haul rope and towers is likely more invasive requiring the permit before continuing.



ACT250 site shows the permits for the hotel now.


----------



## Jonni (May 3, 2013)

The Bonnie Quad is not being removed this year, just moved. I emailed them a short while ago asking, and here is their response:


----------



## gregnye (May 3, 2013)

^^OK NOW I OFFICIAL HAVE A LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH JAY PEAK!!!  All this new stuff for the "ski and stay" family and yet no new significant lift on par for next year???? Really, this is getting ridiculous. 

The solution on days when the flyer and tram is on windhold should not be "too bad, no one can ski so now families will just buy a ticket for the waterpark and we get more money!" That is the wrong mentality! It should be "how can we, as a SKI INDUSTRY provide fast lift access to the top when it is windy". That is the thinking that is lacking in recent years. 

"build it and they will come"---no not at all. When I saw that Jay only had a few trails open on MLK weekend, I didn't come. While I was there, yes I would have gone to the waterpark, but that is not the main attraction!! After all, I could always go to Coco Keys one hour away!

[End Rant]


----------



## fbrissette (May 3, 2013)

gregnye said:


> ^^OK NOW I OFFICIAL HAVE A LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH JAY PEAK!!!  All this new stuff for the "ski and stay" family and yet no new significant lift on par for next year???? Really, this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> The solution on days when the flyer and tram is on windhold should not be "too bad, no one can ski so now families will just buy a ticket for the waterpark and we get more money!" That is the wrong mentality! It should be. That is the thinking that is lacking in recent years.
> 
> ...



The 6-pack was not a solution to the  "how can we, as a SKI INDUSTRY provide fast lift access to the top when it is windy" problem.  This is why I never really understood the reason for the change.   That's a lot of money for 'status quo' at best, and a turn for the worse if is results in more frequent wind-holds.    A new chair in the Ulr Bowl or opening the West Bowl would be money much better spent to enhance skiing experience.  

I understand that they were trying to provide full resort access by positioning the new lift higher up, but exposing the repositioned chair to more winds was a strange idea to begin with.  Jay Peak is still enjoyable with the Tram and Freezer down but if the Bonnie closes, it is a real nightmare - you cannot service a major ski area with a triple chair.   Gaining access to the north part of the resort from the Bonnie was a marginal gain compared to the increase likelihood of having the chair on more frequent wind holds.

The real question is 'are they short on cash' or have they decided to go into a totally different direction with respect to development ?  I'd be surprised if it's the former as attendance was markedly up this year.   If it's the latter, lots of money was wasted.

The homeowner meeting is in one month and we'll definitely get some answers then.  Well, the question will definitely be asked. As to whether or not we get a clear answer remains to be seen.


----------



## Conrad (May 3, 2013)

It's pretty crazy that they didn't follow through. When I was there a couple weeks ago the booklets said they were going to have a new six pack in for next winter.


----------



## gregnye (May 4, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Jay Peak is still enjoyable with the Tram and Freezer down but if the Bonnie closes, it is a real nightmare - you cannot service a major ski area with a triple chair.   Gaining access to the north part of the resort from the Bonnie was a marginal gain compared to the increase likelihood of having the chair on more frequent wind holds.



Which is why, In a perfect world (in my opinion) they would keep the Bonnie in place as well to act as a backup lift for the new Powerline lift (at least for the first season) then, even if the powerline lift doesn't live up its great expectations of "with-standing-wind-ness" then they can keep it forever as a backup on those windy days. 8)


----------



## EPB (May 4, 2013)

So what exactly is going on here? Is the Bonnie being moved to the designated 6 pack liftline???


----------



## fbrissette (May 4, 2013)

eastern powder baby said:


> So what exactly is going on here? Is the Bonnie being moved to the designated 6 pack liftline???



Nope. It's only being shortened to make room for the new hotel.


----------



## EPB (May 5, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Nope. It's only being shortened to make room for the new hotel.



Wow.  Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (May 5, 2013)

When was the last time they dropped any material coin into the mountain itself?  It's been about $100M of real estate and non-skiing stuff since then.  

Sure, this isn't changing what Jay is.  Steve Wright is really impressive at PR, b/c if this was happening anywhere else, there'd be an uproar.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 5, 2013)

Wow, that is quit the turn of events.


----------



## fbrissette (May 6, 2013)

Tin Woodsman said:


> When was the last time they dropped any material coin into the mountain itself?



Over the last three years, they added snowmaking capabilities, replaced the T-bar with the taxi Quad, added modules in the terrain park and built the new carpet (with the Disney figures) near the learning center.  All of these improvements are squarely targeted at families and beginners.   

What have they done for the expert/tree skier ?  Nothing.   From a pure skiing perspective, what we got from all the investments are longer lift lines, more rapidly tracked snow (while these are still much better than at other resorts, this decline is real) and the threat to butcher the orchard.

I'm kinda hoping that the 6-pack delay/cancellation is somehow linked to investments in the West Bowl to be announced but I'm not holding my breath. We'll keep exploring the backcountry in the mean time.


----------



## tgladden (May 6, 2013)

First time commenter, however I've been reading this thread for a while now.  I'm perplexed by what is going on here.  So they are going through the cost of mitigating intrusion of the new hotel by shortening the Bonnie, holding off on the six pack (whatever, I'm fine with the Bonnie as is) and nothing has been announced concerning any new skiable acreage?  What the hell is going on here?  Have we, the skiers, just been given a giant middle finger?

Longing for my learn to ski days back in the 80's.  T-bars, chalet lodge, and being scared to death on my first tram ride, swinging in the breeze just outside of the summit terminal.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 6, 2013)

tgladden said:


> and nothing has been announced concerning any new skiable acreage?


Technically they have announced cutting a trail through the Orchard. which, on paper, would increase skiable acreage since the Orchard is outside the boundary rope.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 6, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> I'm kinda hoping that the 6-pack delay/cancellation is somehow linked to investments in the West Bowl to be announced but I'm not holding my breath. We'll keep exploring the backcountry in the mean time.



That may be most cost effective in the long run.
Ordering 2 or 3 (or maybe even 4 or 5!) lifts and having a couple crews from Dopplemayr installing them all in the same summer/fall may result in discounts and cost savings. The helicopter could hang out just at for a couple weeks flying components up and down the mtn.


----------



## fbrissette (May 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> That may be most cost effective in the long run.
> Ordering 2 or 3 (or maybe even 4 or 5!) lifts and having a couple crews from Dopplemayr installing them all in the same summer/fall may result in discounts and cost savings. The helicopter could hang out just at for a couple weeks flying components up and down the mtn.



Let's hope you are right.   The most optimistic scenario was cutting the trails this summer and installing the lifts in the summer of 2014.

As mentioned earlier, we should get fresh news in early June at the annual homeowner meeting.


----------



## JPTracker (May 6, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Over the last three years, they added snowmaking capabilities, replaced the T-bar with the taxi Quad, added modules in the terrain park and built the new carpet (with the Disney figures) near the learning center.  All of these improvements are squarely targeted at families and beginners.
> 
> What have they done for the expert/tree skier ?  Nothing.   From a pure skiing perspective, what we got from all the investments are longer lift lines, more rapidly tracked snow (while these are still much better than at other resorts, this decline is real) and the threat to butcher the orchard.
> 
> I'm kinda hoping that the 6-pack delay/cancellation is somehow linked to investments in the West Bowl to be announced but I'm not holding my breath. We'll keep exploring the backcountry in the mean time.



They may have added snowmaking capabilities for the beginners but they have taken away from the expert when they removed snowmaking from JFK and Exhibition so they could add it over by the new beginner lifts.

What have they done for the expert/tree skier? Only taken things away from us to improve the beginner side of things.


----------



## fbrissette (May 6, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> They may have added snowmaking capabilities for the beginners but they have taken away from the expert when they removed snowmaking from JFK and Exhibition so they could add it over by the new beginner lifts.
> 
> What have they done for the expert/tree skier? Only taken things away from us to improve the beginner side of things.



My understanding is that you are correct.   They are not able to make more snow.  They simply added the option to make snow on other trails (which happen to be mostly on beginner terrain).  Was just trying to point out that some money was indeed put on the ski hill.


----------



## BigJay (May 6, 2013)

SNowmaking on Exhibition was a joke... pumping a glacier on a trail that has a great pitch and good snow was useless. Yes, GoPros and Jibbers were bombing down the carpet of ice where the groomer hung out... but why waste money like that when you have the Green Mountain boys with same pitch and angle next to it... Exhibition is fun with bumps and natural snow... We were getting a kick of riding the double fall-line under the lift... but sometimes chunk of chopped-up ice was hiding under natural snow. Overall, a good move to put the man-made stuff somewhere else.

We rode the mountain this weekend. Took a lap on the Jet after a day of riding the trails in the valley below. Stateside is completely flat now. Base of Bonnie is gone. So is the lodge and patrol house. Everything is all cleared up. Looks like nothing ever stood there. Towers of the Bonnie and cable are still there.

I don't know why but they took out a whole lot of trees near 242 between the two entrance (main entrance and Jet entrance)... condos? more lodging on along the road?


----------



## JPTracker (May 6, 2013)

I agree on Exhibition but not JFK. Used to be one of our favorite runs was JFK to lower Everglade. Now unless you like skiing moguls with very sketchy entrance this was no longer an option.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 6, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Which is why, In a perfect world (in my opinion) they would keep the Bonnie in place as well to act as a backup lift for the new Powerline lift (at least for the first season) then, even if the powerline lift doesn't live up its great expectations of "with-standing-wind-ness" then they can keep it forever as a backup on those windy days. 8)



Having both lifts would be hard to pull off. Their footprints overlap a lot at the bottom of the mtn. The only way to have both located there would be to either...

A: push the base terminal of the Bonnie further up the hill than the already maligned "too far away from the lodge" Powerline base terminal. 

or 

B: Remove the chair storage barn for the Powerline from the plan and put the Bonnie terminal almost right next to the Powerline terminal.


P.S. I still feel the top terminal area of the Powerline was really going to screw up the outlet of the trail from the Face Chutes. There would need to be a pretty significant fence at the bottom to keep people from launching off the 25' bank into the unload area.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 6, 2013)

I don't know what to say. Very interesting and very depressing all at the same time time. All my saved-up optimism is being shattered.


----------



## gregnye (May 6, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> I don't know what to say. Very interesting and very depressing all at the same time time. All my saved-up optimism is being shattered.


I know! I've put up with all this other nonsense getting built in the hopes that a new high speed lift would come soon. Jay peak, you don't understand!! I spent hours in the summer reading this thread, planning, hoping and praying (ok, i'm being a little dramatic ) but still.

Oh well, a whole 'nother year of suspense.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 7, 2013)

Facebook, the source of all current news, reveals the truth:

Question on JPR FB page this morning:

_Hello,  is the new 6 pack detachable chairlift being installed this year or is  the Bonaventure quad just being relocated slightly? It was discussed  before there would be a 6 pack installed this summer but now everyone is  saying that has been cancelled. Can you clarify what is going on  please?_

Steve W replies:

_The lift installation has been postponed.  The existing Bonnie load is just moving up a bit.
_


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2013)

This is interesting.  Any more word as to why the delay?  As said, money?  Rethinking the layout?  I'd keep the Bonnie and add another lift to the Powerline as said.


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Any more word as to why the delay?




Without a doubt, this is the 64 million dollar question.


----------



## tgladden (May 7, 2013)

*Personal response from JP*



fbrissette said:


> Without a doubt, this is the 64 million dollar question.



Sent them a message on their Facebook messenger:
Rumors abound that the 6 Pack has been postponed and the Bonnie is being moved up the hill a bit? Any clarification on this? Why the delay on the new lift?
#waitingforskiimprovements

2:16pm
Jay Peak Resort
The Bonnie's loading zone will be pushed up for now. Stateside base area development is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured a new lift is in the plans. Thank you.
-JPR

Same old song and dance.

:angry::angry:


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2013)

tgladden said:


> Sent them a message on their Facebook messenger:
> Rumors abound that the 6 Pack has been postponed and the Bonnie is being moved up the hill a bit? Any clarification on this? Why the delay on the new lift?
> #waitingforskiimprovements
> 
> ...



Certainly did not answer the question.  I fail to see why installing a new lift (which is very likely done by outside contractors) is in conflict with building a hotel.   They had no problem putting a new lift a few months ago while building the Learning center, a new parking lot, the Jay store, three new condo buildings and a few dozens additional golf cottage units.

I doubt they are rethinking their development plan, so clearly, they have decided the new lift did not make financial sense for this year (or ever ?).  A bit scary considering the good snow year and increase in skier-days.    Personally, I like the Bonnie as it is.  My beef with this postponement is that it signals that all priorities are for the EB5 program and that mountain improvements are a very distant second and that the elusive West Bowl is no closer than it was 10 years ago.


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2013)

tgladden said:


> Stateside base area development is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured a new lift is in the plans.



Hopefully it won't be in the plans for as long as the West Bowl.

1998 Version
Installing the new Green Mountain Flyer is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured the West Bowl in the plans. 

2007 Version
Tramhouse lodge development is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured the West Bowl in the plans. 

2010 Version
The aquaparc development is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured the West Bowl in the plans.


----------



## ScottySkis (May 7, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Hopefully it won't be in the plans for as long as the West Bowl.
> 
> 1998 Version
> Installing the new Green Mountain Flyer is the current focus and goal that we are pushing to complete. Once that is in order, rest assured the West Bowl in the plans.
> ...


Is the west bowl a real bowl like out west?


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Is the west bowl a real bowl like out west?



I wish it was.   Great potential for tree skiing, sheltered from the winds, probably the most snow.   What it would do is spread the crowds and provide a viable alternative for windy days when Flyer and Tram are closed.


----------



## gregnye (May 7, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Is the west bowl a real bowl like out west?



Nahh but it would be a "gold mine" for Jay Peak, if they were ever to expand!! Go west!!


----------



## ScottySkis (May 8, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Nahh but it would be a "gold mine" for Jay Peak, if they were ever to expand!! Go west!!



I have I love the bowls, Gore has a lot of Bowls I can see potential by the high Peaks quad, sorry for thread hike, sorry Jay is not not improving the snow enthusiasts hill, I need to try Jay next winter.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 8, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Is the west bowl a real bowl like out west?



It would be a fairly isolated trailpod further north along the ridge from the main resort. fbrissette already pointed out the main positive attributes of this pod. It would be roughly the size of the Stateside area but a little shorter vert and not as steep.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 8, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> This is interesting.  Any more word as to why the delay?  As said, money?  Rethinking the layout?  I'd keep the Bonnie and add another lift to the Powerline as said.



Keeping both would be difficult due to overlapping footprints at the bottom of the mtn. The base for the Powerline 6 can't really be pushed to the left in the picture below due to a stream (part of the reason for the Act 250 permit delay). The Bonnie base would have to be pushed up pas the Powerline chair barn. This is possible, but it would make access from the Jet side very difficult. Even trying to ski to the lift from Paradise Meadows/Angels Wiggle difficult. Take out the chair barn and they would have more options.




Note: I'm done wasting time thinking about this lift until Jay releases clearer information about its plans.


----------



## gregnye (May 8, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


>



I wonder whether that transport lift to the west bowl would be high speed. Look how long it is!!


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 9, 2013)

gregnye said:


> I wonder whether that transport lift to the west bowl would be high speed. Look how long it is!!



I think the angle of that picture makes it look long. It is actually only about 193' longer than the Jet Triple. Crossover=3519' vs  Jet=3326'
The Metro quad is 2870'.


----------



## BigJay (May 9, 2013)

Here's the thing: that lift doesn't need to go and bushwack it's way to the flyer if it's not to connect to stateside. Why not just stop at Ullr's Dream... Ok, i get it, you want those riding the magic-carpet-step-up-quad to access the west bowl... Ok, then, put it at the bottom of Ullr's and Deer Run.

My view on this would be: Run a lift that is USEFULL. Make it go slightly below Racer and Exhibition and cut a traverse to Perry Merril so that we can go back to stateside and avoid DisneyLand. We don't need the slow climb on the Metro Quad... we need to go back to stateside and have a Grande Latte (cause i guess that's what's waiting for us next year...) when the flyer is closed due to wind.

I don't know if Jay thinks of the patterns skier use when the ski/ride the mountain and how long traverse can be achieved when working with the land... You can start off the Jet and ride under the flyer in the same run... And you can start off the Flyer and finish the bottom of UN in a single run as well. With the West Bowl, we will need to have efficient way of traveling from side to side... adding more people on the Metro Quad isn't a good thing when the Flyer isn't spinning... it's already a zoo on tramside when everything is on wind hold.


----------



## fbrissette (May 9, 2013)

BigJay said:


> My view on this would be: Run a lift that is USEFULL. Make it go slightly below Racer and Exhibition and cut a traverse to Perry Merril so that we can go back to stateside and avoid DisneyLand. We don't need the slow climb on the Metro Quad... we need to go back to stateside and have a Grande Latte (cause i guess that's what's waiting for us next year...) when the flyer is closed due to wind.



I'm with you 100%.  Either place it at the bottom of Ull'r so you can pretty much walk to it from Tramside, or place it higher up so we can ski straight toward Stateside.  The actual positioning forces you up the metro quad to get there and on the way back.  Let's face it, unless you are a beginner,  the ultra slow metro quad is to be avoided at all costs.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 9, 2013)

Now you understand why all of us Sugarbush skiers didn't miss the Metro Quad, F/K/A the Green Mountain Quad.


----------



## JPTracker (May 10, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Now you understand why all of us Sugarbush skiers didn't miss the Metro Quad, F/K/A the Green Mountain Quad.



Wasn't it known as "The Slug" over at Sugarbush?


----------



## fbrissette (May 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Wasn't it known as "The Slug" over at Sugarbush?



I'd put money on the slug over the metro quad.


----------



## Plowboy (May 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Wasn't it known as "The Slug" over at Sugarbush?



Yes, the  "Green Mountain Slug"


----------



## thetrailboss (May 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Wasn't it known as "The Slug" over at Sugarbush?



Yessir!  You can have it...slow drive and all!  That was one of ASC'S brilliant ideas...take out existing HSQ, install slow lift, end early and late season downloading at Mount Ellen, and force folks to ride three lifts to get to the top instead of two!  Way to kill it!

I rode it in 2002-2003 when it debuted at Jay and laughed at all the Sugarbush stickers that were still on the safety bars.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 10, 2013)

BigJay said:


> Here's the thing: that lift doesn't need to go and bushwack it's way to the flyer if it's not to connect to stateside. Why not just stop at Ullr's Dream... Ok, i get it, you want those riding the magic-carpet-step-up-quad to access the west bowl... Ok, then, put it at the bottom of Ullr's and Deer Run.
> 
> My view on this would be: Run a lift that is USEFULL. Make it go slightly below Racer and Exhibition and cut a traverse to Perry Merril so that we can go back to stateside and avoid DisneyLand. We don't need the slow climb on the Metro Quad... we need to go back to stateside and have a Grande Latte (cause i guess that's what's waiting for us next year...) when the flyer is closed due to wind.
> 
> I don't know if Jay thinks of the patterns skier use when the ski/ride the mountain and how long traverse can be achieved when working with the land... You can start off the Jet and ride under the flyer in the same run... And you can start off the Flyer and finish the bottom of UN in a single run as well. With the West Bowl, we will need to have efficient way of traveling from side to side... adding more people on the Metro Quad isn't a good thing when the Flyer isn't spinning... it's already a zoo on tramside when everything is on wind hold.



IMHO, skier patterns will change significantly when/if the West Bowl opens. Especially on a windhold day. 

On a regular wind hold day when the Tram and Flyer are down, the Jet, Bonnie, and West Bowl would still be open. If you are on Stateside and you wanted to get to the West Bowl, you would take the Boonie up and ski down to the transfer lift. Or hike up to the Flyer and ski down via the connector trail that comes off the ridge above BBP. Getting back to Stateside would require riding the transfer lift and then the Metro. This is the same procedure for a regular day too, except that to get back to Stateside you could ride the Freezer/or the tram and get a decent long run in while your at it.

On a bad windhold day when both the Bonnie and/or Jet are down (rare) and you are staying at the Stateside hotel, you could either just drive over (shuttles?) to the West Bowl or take the Taxi Quad up, ski over to the Metro, then down to the transfer lift. You would have to do it this way even if the Tramside end of the transfer lift was closer to the top of the Metro quad.  Going back to Stateside would require that extra Metro ride (unless you drove/shuttled).
Honest question, during a windhold day, how many times do you think you would actually be going back and forth between base areas?

In the picture below the Purple line is the transfer lift as shown on the master plan. The Pink line would have the Tramside station located where Ullr's comes out above the Freezer and the Green line has the station located just below the tree island at the convergence of Exhibition and Racer.

The Pink Option -
Pros: 
1. Potential for a moderately walk to the lift from the Tram Haus/Hotel Jay.(600 ft from Tram building, 60 ft vert)
2. Interferes with the fewest number of exisiting trails.

Cons:
1. Hard to pull off in terms of environmental permitting (lots of stream/wetland crossings).
2. Proximity to the snowmaking pond may be an issue
3. Need to reconfigure the West Bowl base area building layout.
4. Longest liftride of the three options (4038 ft)
5. People walking up the middle of Harmony Lane to get to the lift.

Green Option - 
Pros:
1. Potential for a short u 460' 34' vert hike to be able to ski back to Stateside. You can't really get this lift any closer due to the Flyer. Cutting a traverse trail would be difficult due to a fairly significant stream valley to skiers left of the metro quad. Trying to locate the terminal higher would cut into the bottom of North Glade more significantly and make for more of a cluster as people come bombing down of of Exhibition and Racer.

Cons: 
1. Could cause traffic issues having a lift upload at a trail junction. Do you really want a "Slow skiing" area added there?
2. Would have to walk to actually make the traverse. Even bridging the stream valley would make for a flat traverse at best.

Purple Option - 
Pros: 
1. Shortest ride at 3556'
2. Unload area doesn't interefere with trail flow much.

Cons:
1. Cuts through Bushwacker glade
2. May require riding the Metro quad a bit more often depending on senario.


----------



## ScottySkis (May 10, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Yessir!  You can have it...slow drive and all!  That was one of ASC'S brilliant ideas...take out existing HSQ, install slow lift, end early and late season downloading at Mount Ellen, and force folks to ride three lifts to get to the top instead of two!  Way to kill it!
> 
> I rode it in 2002-2003 when it debuted at Jay and laughed at all the Sugarbush stickers that were still on the safety bars.



That explains it. I wondered why the chairs their were slow. Why did ASC claim it was better for slow chairs, makes no sense to me.


----------



## ss20 (May 10, 2013)

Scotty said:


> That explains it. I wondered why the chairs their were slow. Why did ASC claim it was better for slow chairs, makes no sense to me.



Capacity.  Slower chair gives you less of a gap between chairs.  More people going up.


----------



## fbrissette (May 10, 2013)

ss20 said:


> Capacity.  Slower chair gives you less of a gap between chairs.  More people going up.



 ?????  Double the gap and double the speed, you have the same capacity.   Obviously, at some point a fixed grip going too fast will create loading problems but this particular chair is absolutely crazy slow.   When the tram and flyer are down, they would need the added capacity of a detachable.


----------



## fbrissette (May 10, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> IMHO, skier patterns will change significantly when/if the West Bowl opens. Especially on a windhold day.
> 
> On a regular wind hold day when the Tram and Flyer are down, the Jet, Bonnie, and West Bowl would still be open. If you are on Stateside and you wanted to get to the West Bowl, you would take the Boonie up and ski down to the transfer lift. Or hike up to the Flyer and ski down via the connector trail that comes off the ridge above BBP. Getting back to Stateside would require riding the transfer lift and then the Metro. This is the same procedure for a regular day too, except that to get back to Stateside you could ride the Freezer/or the tram and get a decent long run in while your at it.
> 
> ...



Very interesting analysis.  It very likely explains why they planned the lift on the purple lime even though it is not optimal from a skiing point of view.

As to your question about travelling between base areas I'd say that experts travel one or twice at best per day.  There are simply not that many interesting routes so that it would make sense.   The intermediate might travel more since some of the best intermediate runs are traversing (Northway, Vermonter, Angel Wiggle).   Typically I will ski a couple of hours on stateside and move on after an early lunch.    I would likely end up on the west bowl later in the day after the crowds have moved in on stateside and tramside.

On a regular windhold day you don't have to walk all the way to the flyer to access the Ullr bowl.  You can skate 30 seconds, traverse hard left through upper everglade and get to the connector through wedelmater.    There will be no way to avoid the metro chair coming back.   If I end up my day in the West Bowl, I will very likely have an additional run there and take the shuttle rather than waste time hitting the transfer lift and metro quad back to the condo.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 10, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> As to your question about travelling between base areas I'd say that experts travel one or twice at best per day.  There are simply not that many interesting routes so that it would make sense.   The intermediate might travel more since some of the best intermediate runs are traversing (Northway, Vermonter, Angel Wiggle).   Typically I will ski a couple of hours on stateside and move on after an early lunch.    I would likely end up on the west bowl later in the day after the crowds have moved in on stateside and tramside.


It will be interesting to see what skier traffic patterns develop if/when the West Bowl is built. It maybe that is where the majority of the intermediate skiers end up up hanging out for most of the day to due to what should be better intermediate terrain than the main mountain. However, the large swaths of glades should allow you some solitude, especially the "hike-to" one on the far skier's left. 



> On a regular windhold day you don't have to walk all the way to the flyer to access the Ullr bowl.  You can skate 30 seconds, traverse hard left through upper everglade and get to the connector through wedelmater.    There will be no way to avoid the metro chair coming back.   If I end up my day in the West Bowl, I will very likely have an additional run there and take the shuttle rather than waste time hitting the transfer lift and metro quad back to the condo.


Yeah, I historically haven't taken the Wedelmaster option on wind hold days since it wastes a lot of vertical. I'd rather put in the extra effort to hit Poma Line or drifts along the side of Ullrs. However, if my objective was to get to the West Bowl the Wedelmaster option would definitely get used more. 
I agree on the end of the day shuttle back to Stateside. I figure if the Jet triple is actually moved over to be the transfer lift that is a roughly a 10 minute ride, then you would have to get on the Metro which is another 10+ minutes. Assuming all the lifts close at 4:00, you would have to be in line to get back at 3:30. I'd rather ski to the closing bell than spend the end of the day riding one lift sideways across the mtn and then riding another snail paced lift just to get back to my car.


----------



## JPTracker (May 11, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> IMHO, skier patterns will change significantly when/if the West Bowl opens. Especially on a windhold day.
> 
> On a regular wind hold day when the Tram and Flyer are down, the Jet, Bonnie, and West Bowl would still be open. If you are on Stateside and you wanted to get to the West Bowl, you would take the Boonie up and ski down to the transfer lift. Or hike up to the Flyer and ski down via the connector trail that comes off the ridge above BBP. Getting back to Stateside would require riding the transfer lift and then the Metro. This is the same procedure for a regular day too, except that to get back to Stateside you could ride the Freezer/or the tram and get a decent long run in while your at it.
> 
> ...



How about as another option to have the unload area directly above the Metro Quad where the old Tbar used to end. The area is already cleared, gives you direct access to stateside and wouldn't interfere with skier flow.


----------



## gregnye (May 11, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> How about as another option to have the unload area directly above the Metro Quad where the old Tbar used to end. The area is already cleared, gives you direct access to stateside and wouldn't interfere with skier flow.



I think this makes the most sense out of all of them. Yes, from tramside you would still have to ride the metro to get to the transport lift, but when you return from the west bowl, you would be able to ski directly to stateside--no problemo!

A more realistic option, which I would have thought Jay Peak would have done already (appealing to families and all) is to SPEED UP the Metro Quad and put a loading carpet in!!


----------



## JPTracker (May 11, 2013)

gregnye said:


> I think this makes the most sense out of all of them. Yes, from tramside you would still have to ride the metro to get to the transport lift, but when you return from the west bowl, you would be able to ski directly to stateside--no problemo!
> 
> A more realistic option, which I would have thought Jay Peak would have done already (appealing to families and all) is to SPEED UP the Metro Quad and put a loading carpet in!!



Actually you just pointed out the problem. You could not get to this lift from the Metro Quad since it would be above it.


----------



## JPTracker (May 11, 2013)

BigJay said:


> We rode the mountain this weekend. Took a lap on the Jet after a day of riding the trails in the valley below. Stateside is completely flat now. Base of Bonnie is gone. So is the lodge and patrol house. Everything is all cleared up. Looks like nothing ever stood there. Towers of the Bonnie and cable are still there.
> 
> I don't know why but they took out a whole lot of trees near 242 between the two entrance (main entrance and Jet entrance)... condos? more lodging on along the road?



Stopped by the moutain Friday morning. Stateside is no longer flat. Most of the hillside where the Bonnie & lodge were is gone and there is a huge mountain of dirt in the parking lot.

Also there is a lot of trees being removed all along the access roads, a lot of orange tape in the woods. I think they may be putting in the new access road this summer and realigning the other road, along with more condos.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 12, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> How about as another option to have the unload area directly above the Metro Quad where the old Tbar used to end. The area is already cleared, gives you direct access to stateside and wouldn't interfere with skier flow.



How do you get over or under the Flyer?


----------



## Boston Bulldog (May 12, 2013)

gregnye said:


> I wonder whether that transport lift to the west bowl would be high speed. Look how long it is!!



I'm thinkng it may be a gondola


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 12, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> I'm thinkng it may be a gondola



Not a chance. Covered magic carpet, with sound system and over & under passes to get around the existing trails and environmeddler issues.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 14, 2013)

*OK, I cried a little...*






Onward and upward.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (May 18, 2013)

Quick, stop speculating!

JPR reveals some plans and pics:

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/about/blog_updates/stateside-development-1#.UZgQs4KG5gK

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/about/expansion-development-1


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 24, 2013)

FWIW, VT Act 250 finally approved the Powerline HSQ/Bonaventure Removal plan...
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-18/Permit%20and%20COS.pdf


----------



## thetrailboss (May 24, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> FWIW, VT Act 250 finally approved the Powerline HSQ/Bonaventure Removal plan...
> http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R0854-18/Permit%20and%20COS.pdf



In typical Vermont fashion, a few days too late......


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2013)

Took this picture Sunday evening. A lot of the foundation for the new hotel/lodge has been poured.


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 10, 2013)

Just returned from our annual homeowners meeting. Some of the highlights of the presentations:

6-pack lift. Primary reason for this lift and to move it up to St Georges Prayer is to connect Stateside to the West Bowl. West Bowl permitting is not far enough along to justify spending the $6 mil for the lift right now so the the Bonnie will still be used. West Bowl permitting is progressing but has wildlife, stream and wetland issues. Want at least 16-18 trails to justify new chair. 6-pack and West Bowl are several years away.

Will need more water for snowmaking for West Bowl. One solution proposed is a  pipeline direct from the Missisquoi up 242 to Jay, A $5-6mil investment.  This is possible because the Missisquoi is a class c river but the Jay Branch Brook is a Class A.

Current bed base 2,400, will be 3,000 by next season, final goal is 4,000 beds (2015-2016)

Stateside hotel will open by Christmas. Currently on schedule.

Recreation Center, to be built next year, will include climbing wall, 160 seat movie theater, volleyball courts, teen center.

Mountain biking to be added, probably just lower mountain to start.

Amphitheater to be located between Learning center and Lodge to hold events similar to VSO concert last year.

New entrance road for the fall.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> West Bowl permitting is progressing but has wildlife, stream and wetland issues.



Raise your hand if you didn't see this coming...
(keeps hands on keyboard )

I know they had quite a few changes to the layout of West Bowl between Master Plans 4 and 5 to adjust for wetlands and streams. I wonder what other adjustments they are having to make. Bear habitat and Bicknell's Thrush are likely at the top of the "wildlife issues" list. 
I also wonder if activities over in the "wilderness" of Big Jay have contributed to the state pushing back on development of North Jay? IIRC, the Big Jay area was swapped to the state and supposed to remain trail free wilderness. The swap of land would allow Jay to develop along the ridges of the main valley where the resort is. However, as we know, the Big Jay bowl is hardly trail free wilderness.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Just returned from our annual homeowners meeting. Some of the highlights of the presentations:
> 
> 6-pack lift. Primary reason for this lift and to move it up to St Georges Prayer is to connect Stateside to the West Bowl. West Bowl permitting is not far enough along to justify spending the $6 mil for the lift right now so the the Bonnie will still be used. West Bowl permitting is progressing but has wildlife, stream and wetland issues. Want at least 16-18 trails to justify new chair. 6-pack and West Bowl are several years away.



I did not think it was as pessimistic as that.  Bill said that he thought permitting would be finalized this year.  We got some interesting insights as to how it works however.  Jay asks for X chairlifts and Y trails.   State counters by saying you only get 2 runs and 1 chairlift.  Then, they negotiate back and forth, and clearly, the economic windfalls to the region have a big say in how much the State will concede in the end.     



JPTracker said:


> Will need more water for snowmaking for West Bowl. One solution proposed is a  pipeline direct from the Missisquoi up 242 to Jay, A $5-6mil investment.  This is possible because the Missisquoi is a class c river but the Jay Branch Brook is a Class A.



Current snowmaking pond is operating at its limit.  Additional snowmaking cannot come from the Jay Branch Brook.   The investment for drawing water from the Missisquoi River only makes sense if the West Bowl is a go.   This would mean snowmaking on the West Bowl, but also additional snowmaking capability on the rest of the mountain.



JPTracker said:


> Current bed base 2,400, will be 3,000 by next season, final goal is 4,000 beds (2015-2016)


My understanding is a little bit different.   3000 by next season is what I heard.  They will add another 400 beds next year for a total of about 3400 beds.   After next year (2014) all work should be completed on the resort east side (Entrance all the way to Tram base).    Their conceptual development plan was always for 4000 beds.  The rest of the beds will come with additional development linked to the West Bowl.




JPTracker said:


> Mountain biking to be added, probably just lower mountain to start.



Walter Elander mentioned Mountain bike trails for next Spring.



A few numbers to add:

- West Bowl development is estimated at 20 millions.
- skier-visit for last season was 400000, an increase of 70000 from the previous year.
- they also had 320000 visits to the waterpark 

Other interesting tidbits:

in 2004 70% of their business was from the Burlington and Montreal areas.
Last season:  14% from Burlington, 19% from Montreal, 35% from Boston and 20% from NY.   

Bill specifically mentioned that the current uphill capacity was well matched to the current downhill capacity of the hill (I strongly agree with this).  As such, faster lifts or new lifts will only be put in place when the downhill capacity of the mountain is increased (West Bowl).

The new day lodge will have twice the size of the old one.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 10, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Will need more water for snowmaking for West Bowl. One solution proposed is a  pipeline direct from the Missisquoi up 242 to Jay, A $5-6mil investment.  This is possible because the Missisquoi is a class c river but the Jay Branch Brook is a Class A.





fbrissette said:


> Current snowmaking pond is operating at its limit.  Additional snowmaking cannot come from the Jay Branch Brook.   The investment for drawing water from the Missisquoi River only makes sense if the West Bowl is a go.   This would mean snowmaking on the West Bowl, but also additional snowmaking capability on the rest of the mountain.



Aren't they putting in the new sewer line under Rt 242 this summer? Too bad they aren't also burying pipe for a future connection to the Missisquoi as well. That would save some $ to bury both pipes at the same time. However, that would be a gamble to do it if it never happens in the end.


----------



## BigJay (Jun 10, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Aren't they putting in the new sewer line under Rt 242 this summer? Too bad they aren't also burying pipe for a future connection to the Missisquoi as well. That would save some $ to bury both pipes at the same time. However, that would be a gamble to do it if it never happens in the end.



I haven't been up 242 in over a month... but if they were redoing (rebuilding) (foundation, pipes, drainage, etc.) 242, i would make sure that the new lines for snowmaking are put in at the same time... while everything is excavated, it costs pennies to add a pipe while your on the side. Adding a line once all is done would be pricey as a standalone project.

As for Mountain Biking: Owl's Head (20min north of Jay) is currently planning and building MTB trails around the base area and towards the golf course. 12km (8mi) will be put in this year. 3 years out, they want to have 50km of trails for all habilities. With many trails opportunity in the area and a future indoor bike park at Burke, N.VT will soon be a mountain biking mecca.

Hope Jay Peak jumps on the saddle and starts planning new trails! I know Hardy Avery from Stowe was out there 3-4 years ago to flag some trail corridors around the golf course... but now, should it all move stateside with summer activities moving to this side?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2013)

BigJay said:


> As for Mountain Biking: Owl's Head (20min north of Jay) is currently planning and building MTB trails around the base area and towards the golf course. 12km (8mi) will be put in this year. 3 years out, they want to have 50km of trails for all habilities. With many trails opportunity in the area and a future indoor bike park at Burke, N.VT will soon be a mountain biking mecca.
> 
> Hope Jay Peak jumps on the saddle and starts planning new trails! I know Hardy Avery from Stowe was out there 3-4 years ago to flag some trail corridors around the golf course... but now, should it all move stateside with summer activities moving to this side?



Kingdom Trails/Burke is already a mecca.  Good timing for Bill Stenger and company since many a former Burke owner 
could never get anything going in the summer.


----------



## Mpdsnowman (Jun 11, 2013)

It is a beautiful area in the Summer and its hard to beat it when it comes to mountain biking. It will be interesting to see if the new management takes (or sort of takes) hold of that nice cash cow niche. Im sure the locals around the mountain have their heads up out of the grass on this one. Mountain biking really does bring in good money...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 16, 2013)

Picture of hotel/lodge construction from Jay's Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/JayPeakFan#!/JayPeakFan

Looks like the hotel section consists of prebuilt pods that get stacked together like containers on a ship.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 16, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Picture of hotel/lodge construction from Jay's Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/JayPeakFan#!/JayPeakFan
> 
> Looks like the hotel section consists of prebuilt pods that get stacked together like containers on a ship.



I have seen those before. The ones I have seen already had all the art/mirrors on the walls and some even the furniture in them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 16, 2013)

Certainly makes construction a lot faster.  I wonder how the quality of the units will be?  

And too bad that we don't see a lift construction crew working there....


----------



## dlague (Jul 17, 2013)

It looks like the Bonadventure terminal is missing close to the new Hotel.  Is Bonnie going to get adjusted for this next season or is the Powerline lift going in?  I have not hear of any news about the lift on Stateside.  Cannot keep track.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2013)

dlague said:


> It looks like the Bonadventure terminal is missing close to the new Hotel. Is Bonnie going to get adjusted for this next season or is the Powerline lift going in? I have not hear of any news about the lift on Stateside. Cannot keep track.



They (quietly) announced that Powerline is not happening this season.  They are moving the Bonnie terminal uphill IIRC.


----------



## canobie#1 (Jul 20, 2013)

This is what Jay posted on their facebook.  They got pounded with comments.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 22, 2013)

With all of the new development at Jay it looks like plans for big conventions are starting to roll in (you'll get the pun if you keep reading).
http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/68f8604c-2b23-4fae-8e78-bca36ef75155

Gonna be some nice cars rolling around the NEK that week. My guess is they will be doing cruises between Jay and Burke via Lake Willoughby. The Burke Toll road will likely be busy too. Lot of photo ops around the area for owners. 

This part kind of surprised me: "The autocross and time-speed-distance events require a venue to meet specific needs, something Jay Peak was in a unique position to meet as the resort’s ownership recently purchased the nearby Newport Airport.” 
Apparently, The Jay ownership purchased the operational rights to the state airport. I had no idea that was even possible.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> With all of the new development at Jay it looks like plans for big conventions are starting to roll in (you'll get the pun if you keep reading).
> http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/68f8604c-2b23-4fae-8e78-bca36ef75155
> 
> Gonna be some nice cars rolling around the NEK that week. My guess is they will be doing cruises between Jay and Burke via Lake Willoughby. The Burke Toll road will likely be busy too. Lot of photo ops around the area for owners.
> ...



Yeah, the airport was supposed to be one of their EB-5 projects, but they decided to use their own money for it.  I guess it is going to be a privately owned airport operated for the public or something like that.


----------



## twinplanx (Aug 22, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, the airport was supposed to be one of their EB-5 projects, but they decided to use their own money for it.  I guess it is going to be a privately owned airport operated for the public or something like that.



So what kind of service can we expect from the airport? Long Island is a LONG drive from Jay Peak!! How big is this airport, what kinda planes come/in out of here, can it accommodate a Leear jet, is commercial service an option, or is intended for corporate use?  I realize a direct flight from Islip MacArthur is a pipedream but prehaps a stop in Boston or Hartford would be feasible, Idk? Sorry about all the questions, but this got my wheels turning ;-)


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 22, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> So what kind of service can we expect from the airport? Long Island is a LONG drive from Jay Peak!! How big is this airport, what kinda planes come/in out of here, can it accommodate a Leear jet, is commercial service an option, or is intended for corporate use?  I realize a direct flight from Islip MacArthur is a pipedream but prehaps a stop in Boston or Hartford would be feasible, Idk? Sorry about all the questions, but this got my wheels turning ;-)



Or just fly to SLC.


----------



## twinplanx (Aug 22, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Or just fly to SLC.


I imagine flights to Newport  will be cheaper. Plus no awkward time charges...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 23, 2013)

Right now mostly private prop planes go in and out of there. Currently there are two 4000' long runways. There are plans to extend one of those (runway 18/36 I think) to 5000' to enable Jet landings. Islip/MacArthur is only 286 miles as the plane flies, or a little less than 2 hours in a typical Cessna single prop plane. Less than an hour for a small private Jet.


----------



## twinplanx (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanks NEK, since my private jet is in the shop the ol' Cessna will have to do until Soutwest or US air step up to the plate ;-)


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Or just fly to SLC.



There you go!  The SLC Airport is 15 mins from my home and almost never has any delays.  Great when you need to get out for work or life.  

And the two hours difference is not bad for me....three was another story.  

As to the Newport Airport, the immediate need was for the aircraft manufacturer that Bill Stenger has lured to the area and is in the process of setting up shop.  I imagine though that the long-term view is to add some kind of service for JPR and Burke, but there won't be 737's from Southwest since they don't even go to BTV and probably will never.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 23, 2013)

I wonder if a small airline like Cape Air which flies into Lebanon and Rutland could be attracted into providing daily flights (from Boston and Westchester County, NY) in and out of Newport? Currently a flight from NY to Lebanon runs $99. 35 minute shuttle ride from the airport and you're there! New England destination skiing!


----------



## twinplanx (Aug 23, 2013)

US Air fly's small prop planes in/out of Islip, that is why I mentioned them before.  Even if Southwest could land in Newport I don't think they could fill the plane. Burlington might be a different story.  I could see US Air filling a plane Friday into Newport for a Sunday departure back to Islip though. Screw it everyone needs a dream ;-)


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 23, 2013)

Hey All,

FNG guy signing on, long time Jay skier.
Newport Airport has major limitation that inhibits charter and commercial landings.
Newport VT airport FAA identifier EFK does not have a precision  approach such as an ILS.
That means that in IFR conditions (instrument conditions) they can not land.
Big bucks and long time scale for FAA to move on this.

Great forum, looking forward to winter and getting to know folks


----------



## twinplanx (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks for the Intel and welcome to AZ, FNG lol ;-)


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2013)

http://www.wcax.com/story/23598868/newport-state-airport-placed-on-hold

More bad news for JPR and its plans......


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 3, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.wcax.com/story/23598868/newport-state-airport-placed-on-hold
> 
> More bad news for JPR and its plans......



Well when was the airport project supposed to start?


----------



## RENO (Oct 3, 2013)

Another waste of taxpayer money.  :???:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Well when was the airport project supposed to start?



That's not clear.  I know that part of the airport was privitized to get the EB-5 funding.  But right now Stenger is abroad trying to raise money for the multiple projects...at Burke and in Newport.  

FWIW the Burke project was delayed until next year....mostly because they don't have the money (yet).


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 3, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That's not clear.  I know that part of the airport was privitized to get the EB-5 funding.  But right now Stenger is abroad trying to raise money for the multiple projects...at Burke and in Newport.
> 
> FWIW the Burke project was delayed until next year....mostly because they don't have the money (yet).



The thing says it was delayed because of the government shut down but if it was scheduled to start for a while then was it really delayed because of this?


----------



## dlague (Oct 3, 2013)

EB-5 funding is happening all over the place!  Jay Peak got a good jump on it but I see it all over the place!  Maybe this type of funding is tightening up a little?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> The thing says it was delayed because of the government shut down but if it was scheduled to start for a while then was it really delayed because of this?



That, my friend, is the million dollar question.


----------



## Big Game (Oct 3, 2013)

If you ever want to compare airports this site is awesome. Every sectional updated and free: http://skyvector.com/

To understand runway length, when you look at Newport State (EKF) you see an L 40. You add two zeros to get the longest runway in feet. 

By comparison ISP is L 71

Also if you see a runways number is determined by it's direction in degrees minus that last digit. Runway 36 means it's due north. And you always get another runway the opposite way --- 18.

So Newports two runways are actually four. 5&23 and 18&36. This page list 5&23 being 1ft longer than 18&36 which is at 3999.

I obsess over this I am am trying to find the time/ money to get my private pilot license (w IFR) so I can hit MMK to EKF in about an hour and a half. Some day.

Does anyone here fly into Newport?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2013)

Big Game said:


> If you ever want to compare airports this site is awesome. Every sectional updated and free: http://skyvector.com/
> 
> To understand runway length, when you look at Newport State (EKF) you see an L 40. You add two zeros to get the longest runway in feet.
> 
> ...



Cool.  Thanks for the info.  Good luck on the license!


----------



## Nick (Oct 4, 2013)

Big Game said:


> If you ever want to compare airports this site is awesome. Every sectional updated and free: http://skyvector.com/
> 
> To understand runway length, when you look at Newport State (EKF) you see an L 40. You add two zeros to get the longest runway in feet.
> 
> ...



I have a private pilot's license although I haven't flown now in many years. Was going to do my IFR but never finished it (career plans when I was 18 was to be an airline pilot, that changed though (obviously!) ). Good luck!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2013)

AlpineZone Airline  Now Serving the New York and Boston Metro Areas with daily flights to Vermont and New Hampshire.


----------



## Nick (Oct 4, 2013)

That would be pretty sweet. 

AZAir


----------



## ScottySkis (Oct 4, 2013)

Nick said:


> That would be pretty sweet.
> 
> AZAir



I would love to take that flight.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 6, 2013)

Word on the street at Jay is that Jay has started the permitting process for running a snow making pipe from the Missisquoi River up to Jay which will greatly increase there snow making capacity. This is not only needed for the West Bowl but also for the rest of the resort as could be seen last season when they discontinued snow making on JFK and Exhibition due to expansion at the Learning Center.

On another note the Bonnie is going back in and has been given a fresh coat of green paint to match the other lifts, making it look like a new lift.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 6, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> ...
> On another note the Bonnie is going back in and has been given a fresh coat of green paint to match the other lifts, making it look like a new lift.



Was wandering around around Stateside yesterday and earlier today, what a scene! Some of of us will be a bit confused by that paint job, I, for one, still called the Bonnie "the red chair." 

JPT - would you not agree that there will be a giant cluster&%#* potential between the new lodge, Taxi Chair and Bonnie Chair? The terrain features a steep, relatively narrow slope, then add skiers/snowboarders putting on gear, walking to the lifts, beginners hiking uphill to the Taxi lift, other skiers late for lunch or blitzing through to the Jet, not much room for lift lines and a little Jay Peak hardscrabble, and oh, boy, things will get interesting. At least the windows of the new restaurant will have a good view of the mayhem.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 6, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Was wandering around around Stateside yesterday and earlier today, what a scene! Some of of us will be a bit confused by that paint job, I, for one, still called the Bonnie "the red chair."
> 
> JPT - would you not agree that there will be a giant cluster&%#* potential between the new lodge, Taxi Chair and Bonnie Chair? The terrain features a steep, relatively narrow slope, then add skiers/snowboarders putting on gear, walking to the lifts, beginners hiking uphill to the Taxi lift, other skiers late for lunch or blitzing through to the Jet, not much room for lift lines and a little Jay Peak hardscrabble, and oh, boy, things will get interesting. At least the windows of the new restaurant will have a good view of the mayhem.



Agreed. Walked over to Stateside from Tramside coming down Chalet Meadows, just as you would on skis. With the new hotel there now the path over to the Jet was not real clear and definitely not a straight shot anymore. Add to that the crowds around the lodge and lift lines on the Bonnie and Taxi lift, it will definitely be interesting skiing through to get to the Jet.

We also think the Bonnie, aka "Red Chair" should have been painted red. Also the Jet, aka "Black Chair" should have been painted Black. Should they have painted the Taxi lift Yellow? The Green Mountain Flyer is at least Green.

Also to park in the Stateside parking lot to walk over to the Jet did not look easy.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 6, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Agreed. Walked over to Stateside from Tramside coming down Chalet Meadows, just as you would on skis. With the new hotel there now the path over to the Jet was not real clear and definitely not a straight shot anymore. Add to that the crowds around the lodge and lift lines on the Bonnie and Taxi lift, it will definitely be interesting skiing through to get to the Jet.
> 
> We also think the Bonnie, aka "Red Chair" should have been painted red. Also the Jet, aka "Black Chair" should have been painted Black. Should they have painted the Taxi lift Yellow? The Green Mountain Flyer is at least Green.
> 
> Also to park in the Stateside parking lot to walk over to the Jet did not look easy.



Not to mention the three flights of stairs before the day visitor can even put their boots on.

The "black chair" is a new one for me. The Jet is either "the Jet," "the triple" or "the blue" in our world. But changing the Red Chair to Green will definitely mess people up. Not a good move. So much for "the unchangeables."

On a positive note, the 242 is freshly paved and smooth as a baby's bottom from the top of Jay Pass to Montgomery. Unbelievable but true.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 6, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> The "black chair" is a new one for me. The Jet is either "the Jet," "the triple" or "the blue" in our world. "



Sorry. My mistake. The Jet was the "Blue Chair".


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 7, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider;791144
On a positive note said:
			
		

> That was the worst paved road to ever exist before.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2013)

Did they repaint the entire Bonnie or just the base terminal and a few of the towers?  If they did a complete repaint, that does not bode well....unless they plan to leave it in as a back-up for the new six-pack or reuse it elsewhere.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 7, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> The "black chair" is a new one for me. The Jet is either "the Jet," "the triple" or "the blue" in our world. But changing the Red Chair to Green will definitely mess people up. Not a good move. So much for "the unchangeables."


Well technically, 8 months ago, that chair was going to be removed. The probably saved some money painting it the same color as the other lifts. Painting it red would make it harder to reuse/sell and red paint typically doesn't weather real well.


----------



## dlague (Oct 7, 2013)

I have skied Jay all of my life and I can not say that the color ever confused me!  When they added Taxi we did an extra assessment and adjusted quickly.  I am sure after a run or two it will be business as usual!


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Did they repaint the entire Bonnie or just the base terminal and a few of the towers?  If they did a complete repaint, that does not bode well....unless they plan to leave it in as a back-up for the new six-pack or reuse it elsewhere.



They painted the entire thing including all the towers and the top terminal.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well technically, 8 months ago, that chair was going to be removed. The probably saved some money painting it the same color as the other lifts. Painting it red would make it harder to reuse/sell and red paint typically doesn't weather real well.



All good points and very practical thinking. Some of us are just a bit stuck in our ways.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 7, 2013)

How far up the hill is the new base of the Bonny? Here is an image from Google Earth showing the new hotel/lodge the Bonnaventure lift line and the Taxi Quad. The yellow line is from tower 1 back to the old base terminal which I'm sure are both gone. The red line starts at tower 1. Is the new terminal located where tower 1 is in the picture or did they move it up above that road that cuts under the line between towers 1 and 2?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 7, 2013)

Something like this?


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

To the left of tower 2 just under the horz red line you can see the bottom of Angles Wiggle and the trees that border it. The new location is between tower 2 and the end of these trees. So if you come out the bottom of Angles Wiggle you will have to go around behind the lift then hike slightly back up hill to get to the lift.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Something like this?



Looks about right


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2013)

Interesting.  So what is the consenus?  Bonnie is in place for a while?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 7, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Looks about right


That would mean the Bonaventure has been shortened by roughly 265 feet. 
I'm not sure the zoo in between the hotel and the lift will be as bad as you think. There is still about 175’ of space between the new hotel and the new Bonny base (more than the width of a football field). Additionally, the lift coral for the old Bonny base used to go almost up to tower 1 which caused some bottlenecking since you had to hike up and around tower 1 to get to the Jet from the old lodge. I've highlighted the area that was typically roped off in orange. Additionally, you had to go around the Ski Patrol building, which was actually located where the corner of the new hotel is now. With the removal of tower 1, the approach to Stateside, if you are coming down any trails skiers left of the Bonny, is almost more direct than it was last year (see the light blue line). Sure there will be people walking up hill to get to the relocated Bonny and there will be people skiing the opposite way going to the lodge. But I don’t think it will be as bad as you think. 
By the way, to get to the new Bonny base from Angel’s Wiggle/Paradise Meadows, you can take that little side track on the skiers left (green line) that will dump you out on Lower Power Line above the quad.  I sketched in a theoretical lift coral area for the relocated Bonny (pink polygon).


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> That would mean the Bonaventure has been shortened by roughly 265 feet.
> I'm not sure the zoo in between the hotel and the lift will be as bad as you think. There is still about 175’ of space between the new hotel and the new Bonny base (more than the width of a football field). Additionally, the lift coral for the old Bonny base used to go almost up to tower 1 which caused some bottlenecking since you had to hike up and around tower 1 to get to the Jet from the old lodge. I've highlighted the area that was typically roped off in orange. Additionally, you had to go around the Ski Patrol building, which was actually located where the corner of the new hotel is now. With the removal of tower 1, the approach to Stateside, if you are coming down any trails skiers left of the Bonny, is almost more direct than it was last year (see the light blue line). Sure there will be people walking up hill to get to the relocated Bonny and there will be people skiing the opposite way going to the lodge. But I don’t think it will be as bad as you think.
> By the way, to get to the new Bonny base from Angel’s Wiggle/Paradise Meadows, you can take that little side track on the skiers left (green line) that will dump you out on Lower Power Line above the quad.  I sketched in a theoretical lift coral area for the relocated Bonny (pink polygon).



The trail the green line is on has been regraded and widened slightly. There is also a bridge over a creek in there that has been rebuilt and widened. They are prepared for everyone using that trail to get back to the Bonnie now.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  So what is the consenus?  Bonnie is in place for a while?



My guess would be at least five years. Now that they have spent the money to relocate it I don't see them replacing it until the West Bowl is fully developed, which my guess is at least five years away.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Oct 7, 2013)

According to Bill Stenger (6/13)*, the red chair upgrade is on hold until west bowl permits are in hand.
Water issues in the west bowl concern various regulatory agencies which are slowing their development plans.

The skier flow around the stateside area will likely be OK, JP's mountain design guy is really good.

Personally, I have concerns on POW days where winds have the tram-freezer on hold and the occupants of new hotel and surrounding cottages (which no one mentions) pile onto the triple and track out runs pronto.

Looking forward to a snowy long winter.

*  JP owners meeting


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2013)

LONGBOARDR said:


> According to Bill Stenger (6/13)*, the red chair upgrade is on hold until west bowl permits are in hand.
> Water issues in the west bowl concern various regulatory agencies which are slowing their development plans.



And the West Bowl has been in the works now since at least 2002.  This really is the exact opposite of what they had been saying for the past two seasons with all the PR over the new six-pack.  Interesting how they walked that one back.  

Anyone suspect there are other reasons as to why the (new) delay when they had been pushing the new six pack really hard the last two seasons?  Or is this a misperception?


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> That would mean the Bonaventure has been shortened by roughly 265 feet.
> I'm not sure the zoo in between the hotel and the lift will be as bad as you think. There is still about 175’ of space between the new hotel and the new Bonny base (more than the width of a football field). Additionally, the lift coral for the old Bonny base used to go almost up to tower 1 which caused some bottlenecking since you had to hike up and around tower 1 to get to the Jet from the old lodge. I've highlighted the area that was typically roped off in orange. Additionally, you had to go around the Ski Patrol building, which was actually located where the corner of the new hotel is now. With the removal of tower 1, the approach to Stateside, if you are coming down any trails skiers left of the Bonny, is almost more direct than it was last year (see the light blue line). Sure there will be people walking up hill to get to the relocated Bonny and there will be people skiing the opposite way going to the lodge. But I don’t think it will be as bad as you think.
> By the way, to get to the new Bonny base from Angel’s Wiggle/Paradise Meadows, you can take that little side track on the skiers left (green line) that will dump you out on Lower Power Line above the quad.  I sketched in a theoretical lift coral area for the relocated Bonny (pink polygon).



Nice drawing as usual, NEK, but I think you are optimistic about skier flow. In the previous orientation, the skier bombing over from Tramside via Queen's Highway had a lot of room and could easily avoid the traffic from old Stateside Lodge to the Bonnie. A wide open view allowed one to dodge incoming traffic from uphill and keep speed up by the patrol building. Not anymore. You will be funneled into a death zone between Taxi Chair, the new lodge and the Bonnie. Patrol will be out with radar guns keeping it all under control. A few pics to illustrate:

The view from the Taxi Chair loading area toward the new lodge and the runout to the Jet. Use your imagination and picture a busy day...






Looking up from below the Bonnie. Note the exposed concrete of the loading area, which will have to brought up to grade. One would think that there is a lot of fill yet to come:





Bonnie base looking at the lodge. Kind of slopey for a lift corral, don't you think?


----------



## tnt (Oct 7, 2013)

I would think once they add enough fill to get level with the loading slab there, they will have enough earth to make a farily flat space behind and corral there...maybe?

The hotel is going to add some traffic there, no doubt.  

And I think more of an issue is the hike up to the Taxi - that loads pretty high up if I remember correctly.  So, yes, families and young skiers starting out at the hotel and heading for the low slopes are going to be hiking up through the incoming traffic.  

Which is the condition now, but traffic will be increased with the hotel....

Well, we'll see....

It's a shame they couldn't replace the bonnie with a HS as planned.  That would really get hotel guests up and on the mountain faster, as well as everyone else....


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 7, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Note the exposed concrete of the loading area, which will have to brought up to grade. One would think that there is a lot of fill yet to come:


That exposed concrete is just the cover for an electrical vault for the  power for the lift. I don't think the grade will change much from what  it is now.

I believe the crushed stone bed under the lift is the final grade on which they will put the wooden walkway used for loading.



Sick Bird Rider said:


> Bonnie base looking at the lodge. Kind of slopey for a lift corral, don't you think?


Almost looks like the coral wil be behind the lift where the ground is a bit more level. But then again with snow making everything changes.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  So what is the consenus?  Bonnie is in place for a while?



My guess is that the Bonnie is staying there until they open up the west bowl.  I never understood why they planned to replace it before that anyway.  A lot of money for not much benefit.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 8, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> My guess is that the Bonnie is staying there until they open up the west bowl. I never understood why they planned to replace it before that anyway.* A lot of money for not much benefit*.



isn't that their new marketing campaign

wonder what the price difference was in relocating up 2 poles, painting and polishing the bonnie vs just putting in a new lift?


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 8, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> isn't that their new marketing campaign



To be fair, they do provide a lot of benefits, just not for the hard-core skier.   As much as I enjoy the new dining opportunities, and the water park a couple of times per year, I would trade all of it for the west-bowl in a heart beat.



kingdom-tele said:


> wonder what the price difference was in relocating up 2 poles, painting and polishing the bonnie vs just putting in a new lift?



I'm sure it is quite significant.   On top of buying the new lift, there is significant work involved to level the terrain at the base of the face.  Nevertheless, the trouble they went through and money spent on the Bonnie is a strong clue that this was done for quite a few years.  

They put all of the electrical cables in along Powerline during summer 2012.  This was an important investment indicating they were really planning to change the lift at that time.    Still not clear as to what happened afterward to make them change their minds.


----------



## dlague (Oct 8, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Nice drawing as usual, NEK, but I think you are optimistic about skier flow. In the previous orientation, the skier bombing over from Tramside via Queen's Highway had a lot of room and could easily avoid the traffic from old Stateside Lodge to the Bonnie. A wide open view allowed one to dodge incoming traffic from uphill and keep speed up by the patrol building. Not anymore. You will be funneled into a death zone between Taxi Chair, the new lodge and the Bonnie. Patrol will be out with radar guns keeping it all under control. A few pics to illustrate:
> 
> The view from the Taxi Chair loading area toward the new lodge and the runout to the Jet. Use your imagination and picture a busy day...
> 
> ...




I do not see it as problematic!  


Anyone skiing to Taxi or Bonnie will stay above the Terminal.
Traffic between the lodge and Bonnie will minimally impact passers by.  
From that location you have to skate over to the Jet as before so that does not change.  
There will be more space than there is between Metro/Flyer and Tram House Lodge


so .... I am not seeing it!


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> They put all of the electrical cables in along Powerline during summer 2012. This was an important investment indicating they were really planning to change the lift at that time. Still not clear as to what happened afterward to make them change their minds.



That's what makes me go :blink:


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 8, 2013)

dlague said:


> I do not see it as problematic!
> 
> 
> Anyone skiing to Taxi or Bonnie will stay above the Terminal.
> ...



I think it will be similar to when you come down Queens Highway, headed for the Flyer and have to pass below the Metro Quad through all the people coming up from the hill and just standing around the lift. Sometimes it's a problem, sometimes not.


----------



## tnt (Oct 8, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> My guess is that the Bonnie is staying there until they open up the west bowl.  I never understood why they planned to replace it before that anyway.  A lot of money for not much benefit.



I would think that a HS lift close to the hotel would really help congestion and enhance the experience staying stateside.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 8, 2013)

Sweet pictures, thanks for posting them. Seems like Jay Peak has been pretty hushed on the Bonny mods, probably so they don’t have to keep answering questions about the HS6 :razz:. 
I agree that the layout isn’t perfect. There is only so much room to work with in that area without getting into the waterway set-backs. The two uphill traffic sources going to the lifts will be the Lodge doors/stairs from parking and the Hotel door. The Lodge door/stairs will likely be a bigger source of traffic (Purple lines) and the Hotel door (brown lines)fairly minor. As long as you can generally avoid the traffic of the purple lines, I think you will have a better route, which leads me to this question.

When coming down Chalet Meadows, is it possible to cut above the Taxi lift corral and then cut over to the Jet, taking advantage of the slope between the Taxi base and the Bonny base (revised light blue line)? 
You would definitely have to slow a bit as you navigate around Taxi, but you should have a pretty good view of cross traffic as you head down past the Bonny (Note that I’ve only ever skied across from Tramside to the Jet via Chalet Meadows a couple times and that was on  wind hold days). If slowing down to ski through the traffic is too much hassle, I guess you could always board the Taxi lift and then traverse over to Jet via the Kangaroo trail .

Whatever traffic issues there are going to be, I really think Stateside will have a really hard time reaching the level of the Tramside shit show when trying to navigate the crowds around the lifts. That area is a mess. Especially if you are trying to ski through to the tram.

As far as the lift corral, I’m not quite sure how they are going to work that for the Bonny. I’m guessing it will be built on that slope with the assistance of snowmaking. Maybe have three entries to the corral. One on the Lodge side (light green line), One Uphill side (dark green lines, one singles (yellow line). The RFID gate is the dark blue line.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 8, 2013)

Yikes, while working on the picture above in Google Earth, I went over to Europe to check out the Ischgl place. It makes any NE ski area look like a mole hill :-o. That place has roughly a 6 mile diameter which would be like filling up the area between Montgomery Center and Jay Village with several 5000 ft vert mtn ridges and putting lifts all over them. Or to put in in even more perspective, it would be like doubling the length of Breckenridge along the Ten Mile Range, then adding trails off the opposite side of the TMR toward Copper Mtn and then also taking over half of Copper Mtn.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

Here's an idea that would work given the fact that they are keeping the Bonnie for now and folks are lukewarm about having the HS-6 go higher (and be exposed to wind) and not to mention cost:

Jay should upgrade the Bonnie and do one of these:








> The new quad features a conveyor loading system, which will improve the lift loading experience, reduce lift stoppage time, and allow the lift to run at speeds of up to 500 feet per minute, making it the fastest fixed-grip lift on the market. The new lift travels 3,746 feet, rises 1,457 vertical feet, features a total of 16 towers, and is powered by a 400 horsepower motor. An additional 400 horsepower Cummins Diesel engine serves as a backup.
> 
> Skyline was designed to be as wind-resistant as possible, with shorter towers, heavier chairs, and several hundred feet of wind-fencing.
> 
> The presence of this new, high-capacity quad is expected to rebalance the flow of uphill traffic on the mountain, thus reducing pressure on other lifts and decreasing lift lines across the mountain during peak times.



https://www.sugarloaf.com/corporate/media/PressReleases/Present/2011/Skyline_Opening.html

Problem solved.  (Can I get my paycheck now, Steve and Bill Stenger  ? )


----------



## tnt (Oct 8, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's an idea that would work given the fact that they are keeping the Bonnie for now and folks are lukewarm about having the HS-6 go higher (and be exposed to wind) and not to mention cost:
> 
> Jay should upgrade the Bonnie and do one of these:
> 
> ...



That's cool.

So the conveyor gets the passenger up to speed to merger with the chair?  Very neat.  I could see boarders having a little trouble with that though.

So, in general, detachable lifts are more susceptible to wind?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

tnt said:


> That's cool.
> 
> So the conveyor gets the passenger up to speed to merger with the chair? Very neat. I could see boarders having a little trouble with that though.
> 
> So, in general, detachable lifts are more susceptible to wind?



Yes, that's generally how it works.  Alta has one for their triple and they added the conveyor belt to an existing lift.  Most fixed grips can actually go faster than they do...it's just resorts run them slower for loading and unloading...and with this feature they can speed up an existing fixed grip lift.  That said there might be some other modifications that might be needed.  

And as to the wind question: all lifts are vulnerable especially with cross-winds.  Just look at how often the GMF is closed at JPR.  Bonnie is somewhat sheltered (below the ridge) and the top of it just barely sits in the crest.  So add some windfencing at the top of the lift and that would help instead of installing a new lift with a terminal higher up and more exposed.


----------



## tnt (Oct 8, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, that's generally how it works.  Alta has one for their triple and they added the conveyor belt to an existing lift.  Most fixed grips can actually go faster than they do...it's just resorts run them slower for loading and unloading...and with this feature they can speed up an existing fixed grip lift.  That said there might be some other modifications that might be needed.
> 
> And as to the wind question: all lifts are vulnerable especially with cross-winds.  Just look at how often the GMF is closed at JPR.  Bonnie is somewhat sheltered (below the ridge) and the top of it just barely sits in the crest.  So add some windfencing at the top of the lift and that would help instead of installing a new lift with a terminal higher up and more exposed.



I'm unclear on where the new lift terminates.  It's running up Powerline, right?

So does it terminate right at the top of that, kind of IN northway, or cross over Northway and terminate opposite the JFK entrance?  I think that would make more sense, right?  Give easier access to all aspects.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 8, 2013)

tnt said:


> I'm unclear on where the new lift terminates.  It's running up Powerline, right?
> 
> So does it terminate right at the top of that, kind of IN northway, or cross over Northway and terminate opposite the JFK entrance?  I think that would make more sense, right?  Give easier access to all aspects.


It currently does not terminate anywhere     And who knows if it ever will.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 8, 2013)

But since I actually took the time to model it last Spring (purple line)...          

 

 

 

       Ignore the green line, that was an old lift from 30 years ago.


----------



## tnt (Oct 8, 2013)

Very cool model.

Yeah, that unloading spot looks pretty ideal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

tnt said:


> Very cool model.
> 
> Yeah, that unloading spot looks pretty ideal.



Folks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the original double used to unload there.  And it's pretty exposed....especially when they break over the ridgeline (Northway area) and head right for that landing.  The prevailing wind blows from chair rider's right to left.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 8, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sweet pictures, thanks for posting them. Seems like Jay Peak has been pretty hushed on the Bonny mods, probably so they don’t have to keep answering questions about the HS6 :razz:.
> I agree that the layout isn’t perfect. There is only so much room to work with in that area without getting into the waterway set-backs. The two uphill traffic sources going to the lifts will be the Lodge doors/stairs from parking and the Hotel door. The Lodge door/stairs will likely be a bigger source of traffic (Purple lines) and the Hotel door (brown lines)fairly minor. As long as you can generally avoid the traffic of the purple lines, I think you will have a better route, which leads me to this question.
> 
> When coming down Chalet Meadows, is it possible to cut above the Taxi lift corral and then cut over to the Jet, taking advantage of the slope between the Taxi base and the Bonny base (revised light blue line)?
> ...



That is awesome work. I was just thinking earlier this afternoon, "if I could draw diagrams like NEK, I would show the traffic patterns of the old layout compared to the new layout." Or something like like that. And you've done half of that anyways. My thinking was that in the old lodge days, traffic coming down Chalet Meadows would spread left if going to the lodge, centre if going to the Bonaventure and right if going to the jet (or recently, the Taxi). Now, everyone, except the Taxi riders, will head straight into the gap illustrated in your models. 

Not sure if the Taxi ski-around will work. Maybe. I would have to be on the snow to figure that out. I like the idea of going up Taxi and down Kangaroo and Lower Sweetheart, that is a fun route.

Agreed that Tramside is a mess but it is a slow moving mess, here you will have people skiing at trail speed mixing with uphill hikers and skiers traversing. We shall see.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 8, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Folks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the original double used to unload there.  And it's pretty exposed....especially when they break over the ridgeline (Northway area) and head right for that landing.  The prevailing wind blows from chair rider's right to left.



Correct. See also page one of this thread, in which you said "So it is "Back to the Future" in the sense that the Jet and Bonnie will  go on what were the original lift lines back in the day--the UN I  believe used to be the old T-Bar and the Powerline was the old double."


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Correct. See also page one of this thread, in which you said "So it is "Back to the Future" in the sense that the Jet and Bonnie will  go on what were the original lift lines back in the day--the UN I  believe used to be the old T-Bar and the Powerline was the old double."



Sounds about right.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> That is awesome work. I was just thinking earlier this afternoon, "if I could draw diagrams like NEK, I would show the traffic patterns of the old layout compared to the new layout." Or something like like that. And you've done half of that anyways. My thinking was that in the old lodge days, traffic coming down Chalet Meadows would spread left if going to the lodge, centre if going to the Bonaventure and right if going to the jet (or recently, the Taxi). Now, everyone, except the Taxi riders, will head straight into the gap illustrated in your models.
> 
> Not sure if the Taxi ski-around will work. Maybe. I would have to be on the snow to figure that out. I like the idea of going up Taxi and down Kangaroo and Lower Sweetheart, that is a fun route.
> 
> Agreed that Tramside is a mess but it is a slow moving mess, here you will have people skiing at trail speed mixing with uphill hikers and skiers traversing. We shall see.



Darwinism at work on the ski slopes perhaps?


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

$56 vermonter rate now.

$130/day now for local parents to take a 5 year old skiing.

guess the Bonnie stuff didn't save them that much.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> $56 vermonter rate now.
> 
> $130/day now for local parents to take a 5 year old skiing.
> 
> guess the Bonnie stuff didn't save them that much.



those are probably the cheapest rates in the state outside of Middlebury, Bolton and Cochrans


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> those are probably the cheapest rates in the state outside of Middlebury, Bolton and Cochrans



Guess I am lucky I don't have to lift ski in state.


----------



## xwhaler (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> those are probably the cheapest rates in the state outside of Middlebury, Bolton and Cochrans



Magic is $118 FWIW (regular $59 rate for adults and kids under 5 ski free)
They do have $49 tickets every Sunday for NH/VT residents.

Pico is $130 for the 2 adults/kid under 6. That said $130 for Jay does seem a good deal for Vt families when compared to other mtns its size/scope in VT being much more.

Jay charges $16 for kids 5 and under to ski...not sure I've seen too many mtns that charge anything for kids under 5 to be honest. Though I haven;t spent much time looking.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

Okay add magic and pico.  But there certainly isn't a ski area of Jays magnitude in Vermont and very few in the Northeast offering such a value especially one geared towards locals.

 Because of that I don't understand kingdomteles whining especially when jay is a business that has no obligation to make their product affordable.  If anything they should be praised for making an effort.

Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## xwhaler (Oct 10, 2013)

I agree w/ you----having a local discount every day of the week is good business. Most places that offer the locals discount offer it only on select days I've noticed. Pico is $29 every Friday for NH/VT residents as an example. 
I could do without Jay charging $16 for a kid under 5 to stand on the carpet for an hour or so but as you mentioned they are a business.
Saddleback has $29 Maine resident days one Sunday per month which gives them good business.


----------



## Nick (Oct 10, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's an idea that would work given the fact that they are keeping the Bonnie for now and folks are lukewarm about having the HS-6 go higher (and be exposed to wind) and not to mention cost:
> 
> Jay should upgrade the Bonnie and do one of these:
> 
> ...



I'm not very good on those lifts :lol:


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay add magic and pico.  But there certainly isn't a ski area of Jays magnitude in Vermont and very few in the Northeast offering such a value especially one geared towards locals.
> 
> Because of that I don't understand kingdomteles whining especially when jay is a business that has no obligation to make their product affordable.  If anything they should be praised for making an effort.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app



The only way to make skiing affordable for a family is with season passes.  Jay charges 16$ per day for a 5 year old, but the season pass is 30$.    As per the above example, it is 130$ for two parents and a 5 year old to ski one day.   For about 1300$ you get three season passes at Jay (Vermonter rate).  10 days of skiing and you're even.  20 days at 70$/day.   30 days at 43$ per day.  40 days at 35$ per day.

I consider Jay relatively cheap when compared to other big eastern mountains, especially for season passes.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay add magic and pico. But there certainly isn't a ski area of Jays magnitude in Vermont and very few in the Northeast offering such a value especially one geared towards locals.
> 
> Because of that I don't understand kingdomteles whining especially when jay is a business that has no obligation to make their product affordable. If anything they should be praised for making an effort.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app



not whining DHS, I can easily go somewhere else or do other activities, and do.  Your right, J has every right to charge whatever they like.  In fact, I happily purchased a mid week pass last spring for my solo ski time.

It was only a remark on this year's price. A statement reflecting an industry that, much like other recreational services, is gladly leaving behind a large portion of the public who might be interested in the atmosphere of resort skiing, especially one 15 miles from your front door. The complexity they add will come at a price, the places remaining that keep skiing non complex and accessible are dying, as the list your making indicates. Skiing for a day with your wife and daughter for the price of a cord of wood is what it is. It just doesn't seem necessary, my opinion ofcourse.

You applying your perception to my comment is more akin to whining.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

Call it a draw.  I'm whining about your whining about cost and I've whined in the past about your constant whining about development or change of any kind in your neck of the woods.  

Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

And why not whine about the cost of a cord of wood?  Loggers need to make a li inch just like ski industry professionals.  

Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Call it a draw. I'm whining about your whining about cost and I've whined in the past about your constant whining about development or change of any kind in your neck of the* woods*.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app



which are disappearing slowly but surely


----------



## tnt (Oct 10, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> not whining DHS, I can easily go somewhere else or do other activities, and do.  Your right, J has every right to charge whatever they like.  In fact, I happily purchased a mid week pass last spring for my solo ski time.
> 
> It was only a remark on this year's price. A statement reflecting an industry that, much like other recreational services, is gladly leaving behind a large portion of the public who might be interested in the atmosphere of resort skiing, especially one 15 miles from your front door. The complexity they add will come at a price, the places remaining that keep skiing non complex and accessible are dying, as the list your making indicates. Skiing for a day with your wife and daughter for the price of a cord of wood is what it is. It just doesn't seem necessary, my opinion ofcourse.
> 
> You applying your perception to my comment is more akin to whining.



Yeah, it's a trend everywhere.  recreation spots have to compete not only within their industries, but really across industries lately as disposable incomes decrease.  

But I will say this as some one who has skied Jay only once though I've skied the east my whole life - it's a great place.  The hotels are priced for families, and are pretty well done.  The skiing, when we were there, was fantastic.  The mountain is awesome....and yeah, I can see the water park and fluffy spa stuff kind of rubbing locals the wrong way, and we didn't need it - we were there to ski - but on the other hand, they are probably keeping the place alive. 

Anyway, all that has been said before I'm sure, but as some one new to Jay, I'd suggest it sure could be worse.  Seems like a really great place to us.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

It is a great place tnt, I agree. I am lucky enough to be on the mountain many times/week. They certainly do have great ski and stay packages, as fb points out season pass deals, dynamic off snow activities. Even with that it has little to do with the local family who has a kido excited to go ski, excited about the atmosphere of lift served skiing, but an economic tag that is putting it just a little further out of reach. Being raised Jay is becoming more difficult for the people living in its shadow, for the people who ski when life allows it vs reorienting life to ski. We are fortunate there are other options that are half the price. Lets face it, a five year old sees skiing a little differently, it would be nice to do it at J, but the same joy for the half the price doesn't even take an economic dolt like me to figure out which lodge we'll be suiting up in


----------



## tnt (Oct 10, 2013)

Well, I hear you, and you're not alone.  We stopped going to our favorite mountain retreat in the summer because after they built a spa, the rates have been jacked sky high and the clientele has changed drastically.  But I was told by a local that without the spa, they were done, so though he shared our concerns, he praises the spa...

And similarly, one of regular hills in the Poconos really goes over the top with the "no outside food in the lodge", really signs every f-ing place....to the extent that I write to complain every time we visit there....I know they need the money from food, but jeez, we can't afford their lift tickets (I think only about $15 less than Jay!!!) AND Their high food prices....packing in every day means a few more days of skiing for us....

But such is the way of the world...

So, for an affordable day with the kids up that way, where do you go?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2013)

$130 for two parents and a kid to ski one day is a lot for those on a fixed income or who are the typical NEK folks.  Over the years Jay and Burke have responded by adjusting season pass rates lower as a way to entice locals to go that route.  But that may not work for some.  I agree that this is a problem with the industry as a whole.  And, as a guy who spent most of his early skiing years at the Lyndon Outing Club, I get it.  I'm fortunate now that I can afford a pass and I can reallocate my money and lifestyle for that.  But yeah if I was buying tickets by the day at the window I'd be poor pretty quickly.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> . Even with that it has little to do with the local family who has a kido excited to go ski, excited about the atmosphere of lift served skiing, but an economic tag that is putting it just a little further out of reach. Being raised Jay is becoming more difficult for the people living in its shadow, for the people who ski when life allows it vs reorienting life to ski.



Nobody is forcing people to live in the shadow of Jay and not earn enough money to make Jay affordable.  That's an individual choice.  It's not Jay's fault.

I lived in Vermont for many years.  I went to High School and College there and spent about five working years of my adult life there.  I loved it, but also endured economic hardships that often prevented me from participating in activities I enjoyed.  I didn't stay and bitch about it; I left.  Almost all of my good friends from High School and College made the same decision.

I often miss living there; especially when Mount Mansfield is getting hammered with snow and I'm three and half hours away.  

You can't always have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2013)

I also will admit/confess that over the years of reading KT's comments I've become more skeptical (not quite jaded) about the JPR/Burke plans and how things are going.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2013)

One other note of interest: if the Vermonter Rate and Day Rates have increased then I would argue that the ski product has not. Granted I have not skied at Jay in a long time, but from my observations from afar they have essentially the same lifts and terrain as they did when I was there.  I know that a lot of folks have grumbled about the improvements of lodging and other base amenities while the Jet and Bonnie are now almost 30 years old.  It sounds like they may be working on expanding snowmaking but if it's on the same timetable as the Six-Pack and West Bowl then I will be retired and in a nursing home before it becomes reality.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

Jay dropped all of their prices last year significantly.  Day tickets went from $75 down to $64.


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 10, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Correct. See also page one of this thread, in which you said "So it is "Back to the Future" in the sense that the Jet and Bonnie will  go on what were the original lift lines back in the day--*the UN I  believe used to be the old T-Bar and the Powerline was the old double.*"



I'm certainly no expert on JPR but I did ski there back in the late 60's and early 70's several times.  The old center pole double did run up Powerline that I know but I also rode the old Jet T-bar and skied UN and don't remember the T running up it, rather up a separate liftline next to it pretty much where the current chair runs now.  Some one can correct me if I'm wrong but the trail the chair climbs now was widened when the chair was installed.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Nobody is forcing people to live in the shadow of Jay and not earn enough money to make Jay affordable. That's an individual choice. It's not Jay's fault.
> 
> I lived in Vermont for many years. I went to High School and College there and spent about five working years of my adult life there. I loved it, but also endured economic hardships that often prevented me from participating in activities I enjoyed. I didn't stay and bitch about it; I left. Almost all of my good friends from High School and College made the same decision.
> 
> ...




It is an individual choice.  I will repeat as it seems you can not read anything I write without a sour tone.  I don't begrudge J, I look forward to the sky rocketing rates when they have to start figuring out a way to afford their complexity, the "buisness" choices they make that continue to make lift served skiing a have vs have not endeavor. I have moved on, will ski my mid week mornings as long as I can afford it and continue to hike it weekly, because it is beautiful and satisfying to stand on the top of that mountain.  My choice to live here has nothing to do with lift served skiing, even though it is an enjoyable activity in the winter.

tnt: we now go to Owl's Head, half day AM/PM rates, free for the kido, $75 for the family, nice low level terrain, poutine, cold beer, picnic benches.  Burke on Sunday afternoons, was $25/adult, don't know about this year.

In retrospect, I wish I could take back my jaded tone from earlier posts. I realized along the way that being content with something lesser isn't a vision everyone shares and should have kept it to myself.  I still love the mountain, appreciate the rink, love my friends I have made there, the rest will be what it is.


----------



## tnt (Oct 10, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Jay dropped all of their prices last year significantly.  Day tickets went from $75 down to $64.



Camelback, about 800 vrt. feet, packed every weekend, virtually every trail groomed, no tree skiing, pocono crowds....adult weekend pass $61.....

It's crazy.

But hey, $64 even for a mountain like Jay is a lot of money.

It's a tough reality and a hard thing balance - the matrix is a complicated one - it's not just "how much money can we charge for lift tickets so as to run at max. profit" because lift tickets are just one part of the profit equation now.  Do you want day trippers, locals, families, lodgers....who is more likely to buy your food?  Your rentals?  Your lessons?  Who is a low cost customer that you can just put the lift money in the till, and who is likely to require services and amenities?

i don't - kind of an unanswerable questions.

But again, from my perspective, Jay seems to be tackling the touchy subject of evolving from a ski mountain into a resort pretty well.

I really liked the place and wish we were going back.


----------



## tnt (Oct 10, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> It is an individual choice.  I will repeat as it seems you can not read anything I write without a sour tone.  I don't begrudge J, I look forward to the sky rocketing rates when they have to start figuring out a way to afford their complexity, the "buisness" choices they make that continue to make lift served skiing a have vs have not endeavor. I have moved on, will ski my mid week mornings as long as I can afford it and continue to hike it weekly, because it is beautiful and satisfying to stand on the top of that mountain.  My choice to live here has nothing to do with lift served skiing, even though it is an enjoyable activity in the winter.
> 
> tnt: we now go to Owl's Head, half day AM/PM rates, free for the kido, $75 for the family, nice low level terrain, poutine, cold beer, picnic benches.  Burke on Sunday afternoons, was $25/adult, don't know about this year.
> 
> In retrospect, I wish I could take back my jaded tone from earlier posts. I realized along the way that being content with something lesser isn't a vision everyone shares and should have kept it to myself.  I still love the mountain, appreciate the rink, love my friends I have made there, the rest will be what it is.



Hey, I'm jealous that day rates at Jay could even be a problem - meaning, I wish I had jay in my back yard, and had to juggle between a bunch of good mountains.

You know, even living up there, maybe take a look at there stateside hotel promo - don't know where you live exactly, but if you had a hankering for a night at the hotel, it seems basically like staying over night for free - or skiing for free,, how ever you want to look at it.  Might make a nice mid week getaway....  I think it was, family of four for $249/night, ski and stay.....


----------



## dlague (Oct 10, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> It is an individual choice.  I will repeat as it seems you can not read anything I write without a sour tone.  I don't begrudge J, I look forward to the sky rocketing rates when they have to start figuring out a way to afford their complexity, the "buisness" choices they make that continue to make lift served skiing a have vs have not endeavor. I have moved on, will ski my mid week mornings as long as I can afford it and continue to hike it weekly, because it is beautiful and satisfying to stand on the top of that mountain.  My choice to live here has nothing to do with lift served skiing, even though it is an enjoyable activity in the winter.
> 
> tnt: we now go to Owl's Head, half day AM/PM rates, free for the kido, $75 for the family, nice low level terrain, poutine, cold beer, picnic benches.  Burke on Sunday afternoons, was $25/adult, don't know about this year.
> 
> In retrospect, I wish I could take back my jaded tone from earlier posts. I realized along the way that being content with something lesser isn't a vision everyone shares and should have kept it to myself.  I still love the mountain, appreciate the rink, love my friends I have made there, the rest will be what it is.





deadheadskier said:


> Nobody is forcing people to live in the shadow of Jay and not earn enough money to make Jay affordable.  That's an individual choice.  It's not Jay's fault.
> 
> I lived in Vermont for many years.  I went to High School and College there and spent about five working years of my adult life there.  I loved it, but also endured economic hardships that often prevented me from participating in activities I enjoyed.  I didn't stay and bitch about it; I left.  Almost all of my good friends from High School and College made the same decision.
> 
> ...



I wanted to point out a thing or two - I too miss northern Vermont.  I grew up there and learned to ski at Jay and Burke!   However, I moved away to NH because of opportunity and luckily I am having my cake and eating it too since we have access to 40+ ski areas in a 2 hour radius with Jay being one of the 3-4 visits resorts!  I technically am right in the middle of NE skiing!  I get what you are both saying and everyone has their own opinion.  My family was not for the change at Jay - and really loved the classic Jay with it's simplicity.  But, later we realized that they are a business that needs to figure out a long term strategy.  I have since used some of the other amenities and enjoyed them.  I have bought on to the idea!  There are some things that I do not agree with ($16 for 5 and under - should be free) at Jay but I am a spectator.  Those who seem to shit on Jay are doing it because they have some kind of beef!  Hell, Killington has haters, Smuggs has haters, etc.  Pick a resort and post a positive remark on this forum and someone will find something negative to write!

On another note - I think there are ways to make skiing affordable at Jay - we generally use The Ride and Ski Card and ski there in 2 for 1 days (most Sunday-Friday dates and the tour stop).  As you can see from my signature, we are well traveled in NE and Jay is always a favorite for my whole family.  The food there is affordable, plenty of entertainment for the kids and adults apres ski and if not staying at my parents home up there - it is single day round trip ski and drive!

However, if I lived up there and were to ski anywhere - I would go to Owls Head too!  With  the $20 Tuesday and Wednesday rate and the Carte Blanche with 10%, 20%, 25%, 30% off each consequetive visit then free on the fifth - it is a no brainer!

I hope to return to the NEK someday for the long haul but for now it is still my backyard but a big backyard it is - NEK with out the K!  Those who choose to stay up there - well hats off to you - it is beautiful country!


----------



## St. Bear (Oct 10, 2013)

dlague said:


> I wanted to point out a thing or two - I too miss northern Vermont. I grew up there and learned to ski at Jay and Burke! However, I moved away to NH because of opportunity and luckily I am having my cake and eating it too since we have access to 40+ ski areas in a 2 hour radius with Jay being one of the 3-4 visits resorts! I technically am right in the middle of NE skiing!



I've said before that I think Manchester, NH is a highly underrated place to live for skiing for this very reason.  The only significant places in New England that aren't daytrippable are Saddleback and Sugarloaf.  Literally everything else is in play.


----------



## dlague (Oct 10, 2013)

St. Bear said:


> I've said before that I think Manchester, NH is a highly underrated place to live for skiing for this very reason.  The only significant places in New England that aren't daytrippable are Saddleback and Sugarloaf.  Literally everything else is in play.



Yup and Concord is even better!  Near the 93 and 89 split!  Ragged, Gunstock, Sunapee, Pats, Crotched and Waterville are all less than 45 minutes and most less than 30!  Other than that there are plenty of day tripable places to ski!  Oddly enough, we tend to got to Vermont the most!

Raisem' Jay!


----------



## mriceyman (Oct 10, 2013)

dlague said:


> Yup and Concord is even better!  Near the 93 and 89 split!  Ragged, Gunstock, Sunapee, Pats, Crotched and Waterville are all less than 45 minutes and most less than 30!  Other than that there are plenty of day tripable places to ski!  Oddly enough, we tend to got to Vermont the most!
> 
> Raisem' Jay!


this makes me so jealous. im an 2.5 hours to hunter!! 4 hours and change to gore.


----------



## ScottySkis (Oct 10, 2013)

mriceyman said:


> this makes me so jealous. im an 2.5 hours to hunter!! 4 hours and change to gore.



I hear that I used be far from the Catskills. This year my trip will take just over an hour one huge things with others that make living here very nice.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 10, 2013)

dlague said:


> Yup and Concord is even better!  Near the 93 and 89 split!  Ragged, Gunstock, Sunapee, Pats, Crotched and Waterville are all less than 45 minutes and most less than 30!  Other than that there are plenty of day tripable places to ski!  Oddly enough, we tend to got to Vermont the most!
> 
> Raisem' Jay!



I too live in this area and agree on the accessibility of the ski areas of New England. The ocean and Boston are day trips a s well. Loves this area of the Country and New England.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2013)

If it weren't for our love of the NH and Southern Maine seacoast and having family in the area, I could totally see my wife and I enjoy living in the Concord area.  I really dig the Concord area west to Henniker, north to Plymouth and east to Northwood.  Lots of great communities and the area is prime for year round living in terms of economic/employment opportunities and great access to recreation.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 11, 2013)

*Affordablity*

I think we do a pretty fair job of keeping pricing as low as possible-both for downcountry folks and locals.  While $16 may feel prohibitive for 5 and under (and, actually, reloads are $11), they can get a season pass for $30 (as identified previously).  For local kids, we have more than a dozen local schools (and more than 500 kids) who participate in our Straight A program whereby honor roll kids ski and ride for free all year.  More than a dozen schools participate in our Foundation Program where kids get $12 lift tickets ($15 includes rentals) and free instruction season passes for these same kids are $219.  We're also the only major resort, (and have been since I've been in VT) that offers a daily discount for Vermonters and doesn't limit reduced pass prices to frozen January Tuesdays.  And for vacationers, I would love to hear of a better deal than $299 for a night in a ski-in/out brand new hotel, 4 lifts tickets and 4 waterpark passes.  We can agree to bang on Jay Peak for lots of things including/not limited to, selling out, silly marketing, and even those extra 10 lbs we've been trying to drop, but maligning us for not making the sport comparably affordable is a difficult platform to support imo.





tnt said:


> Hey, I'm jealous that day rates at Jay could even be a problem - meaning, I wish I had jay in my back yard, and had to juggle between a bunch of good mountains.
> 
> You know, even living up there, maybe take a look at there stateside hotel promo - don't know where you live exactly, but if you had a hankering for a night at the hotel, it seems basically like staying over night for free - or skiing for free,, how ever you want to look at it.  Might make a nice mid week getaway....  I think it was, family of four for $249/night, ski and stay.....


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 11, 2013)

All sounds good Steve. J certainly does a great job with the school programs as my niece will attest to.  

Its not a platform though.  Spending $40 instead of $100+ to ski is pretty easy math.  I think maybe we are just not major resort skiers at this point in our family ski lives.


----------



## tnt (Oct 11, 2013)

Heh.  I don't know...the selling out argument can go on for days, but I like the fact that Jay seems to be handling it with a certain sense of humor, and kind of...edge.  Don't really get the fairly combative tones sometimes found over on facebook.  I mean, I get it, trying to keep this raw kind of local flair, say what we mean, thing going I guess, but it reads pretty rough sometimes.  Not that you were asking!

And you know, there were other minor glitches, which I would be happy to share privately, but over all, enjoyed it and thought it was a very nice value for a Jersey family of four looking for four days on a large mountain. In the running again this year, but will most likely try some place closer to home for our x-mas trip.  

Any way - seems like it's all been said...

Maybe I'll find our pics from last year and do a trip report thing over in that other forum....


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey, I got lots of unsolicited feedback no worries.  I guess we just respond in the manner and tone we're addressed.  It's probably not guest service 101 but when someone goes on a social platform an shoots before aiming, they're going to get some tone back.  Like I said, probably not the most artful approach but it is what it is and will likely continue to be.

Enjoy your trips wherever they take you.



tnt said:


> Heh.  I don't know...the selling out argument can go on for days, but I like the fact that Jay seems to be handling it with a certain sense of humor, and kind of...edge.  Don't really get the fairly combative tones sometimes found over on facebook.  I mean, I get it, trying to keep this raw kind of local flair, say what we mean, thing going I guess, but it reads pretty rough sometimes.  Not that you were asking!
> 
> And you know, there were other minor glitches, which I would be happy to share privately, but over all, enjoyed it and thought it was a very nice value for a Jersey family of four looking for four days on a large mountain. In the running again this year, but will most likely try some place closer to home for our x-mas trip.
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 11, 2013)

Makes sense, I get it.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 12, 2013)

If it's such a great business model why do you need foreign funds to finance it?


----------



## Edd (Oct 12, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> If it's such a great business model why do you need foreign funds to finance it?



Running ski areas is extremely difficult (weather dependent) business.  You'd be out of your mind to pass up funds of that magnitude.

If making money is the only thing someone wants to do, there are at least a thousand better ways than the ski business.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> If it's such a great business model why do you need foreign funds to finance it?



It's a sad fact that there aren't too many domestic investors/sources of capital for projects like this.  That's just the reality of it.


----------



## dlague (Oct 14, 2013)

dlague said:


> There are some things that I do not agree with ($16 for 5 and under - should be free) at Jay but I am a spectator.  Those who seem to shit on Jay are doing it because they have some kind of beef!  Hell, Killington has haters, Smuggs has haters, etc.  Pick a resort and post a positive remark on this forum and someone will find something negative to write!
> 
> On another note - I think there are ways to make skiing affordable at Jay - we generally use The Ride and Ski Card and ski there in 2 for 1 days (most Sunday-Friday dates and the tour stop).  As you can see from my signature, we are well traveled in NE and Jay is always a favorite for my whole family.  The food there is affordable, plenty of entertainment for the kids and adults apres ski and if not staying at my parents home up there - it is single day round trip ski and drive!
> 
> ...


----------



## EPB (Oct 14, 2013)

dlague said:


> thousand better ways than the ski business - this maybe true, but thankfully resorts are getting creative enough to make it viable for all to enjoy!  Some even operate to stay afloat!



This was my read on the situation.  I would be very curious to see exactly how wealthy the typical foreign investor is and to what extent they see the $500K as an expense or an investment.


----------



## dlague (Oct 14, 2013)

My guess it is a means to an end!  Spend $1,000,000 on a new enterprise, or $500,000 in a rural area the has high unemployment that creates at least 10 jobs and the reward is a green card.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 14, 2013)

dlague said:


> My guess it is a means to an end! Spend $1,000,000 on a new enterprise, or $500,000 in a rural area the has high unemployment that creates at least 10 jobs and the reward is a green card.



That's exactly right.  It is a means to cut the line with the benefit of providing capital for domestic projects.  JPR is a leader and utilizing this model to raise capital.  You can't blame them for using the rules for the game that they are given.


----------



## dlague (Oct 14, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That's exactly right.  It is a means to cut the line with the benefit of providing capital for domestic projects.  JPR is a leader and utilizing this model to raise capital.  You can't blame them for using the rules for the game that they are given.



Right on brother!  More power to JPR!


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Oct 20, 2013)

Moving right along, here is a two-year old blog post I stumbled upon today. Pretty sure that it has not been referenced in this thread before. Interesting and ultimately positive analysis from an EB-5 immigration lawyer about some criticisms regarding JPR's relationship with the EB5 program:
http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/

Edit to add this: in the same search, I also found an opinion from the other side of the fence, raising concerns from the contractor's point of view -
http://www.nerccblog.com/2011/11/bouchard-responds-to-jay-peak-article.html


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2013)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Moving right along, here is a two-year old blog post I stumbled upon today. Pretty sure that it has not been referenced in this thread before. Interesting and ultimately positive analysis from an EB-5 immigration lawyer about some criticisms regarding JPR's relationship with the EB5 program:
> http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/
> 
> Edit to add this: in the same search, I also found an opinion from the other side of the fence, raising concerns from the contractor's point of view -
> http://www.nerccblog.com/2011/11/bouchard-responds-to-jay-peak-article.html



The second article sounds more like the union is angry that non-union contractors are being used. Every large project that uses nonunion workers has articles by the union written so it should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

Things are moving forward.....

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=101549


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

This video might be of interest:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23885482/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9494681


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

Part II of that series explaining who is investing in the projects:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23895536/bu


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 16, 2013)

Jay Peak's new trail map

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/skiing-riding/the-mountain/trail-map/

no longer includes the West Bowl.

What does this say about the time line for it? Did they just get tired of people asking about it for the last ten years? It first appeared on a trail map in 2003.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Nov 16, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Jay Peak's new trail map
> 
> http://www.jaypeakresort.com/skiing-riding/the-mountain/trail-map/
> 
> ...



I think you hit the nail on the head, JPT. They have so many other stories to tell now! 

Also intersting that there is no lodge (old or new) shown at Stateside. Nor any condos anywhere (were they on previous maps?).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Jay Peak's new trail map
> 
> http://www.jaypeakresort.com/skiing-riding/the-mountain/trail-map/
> 
> *no longer includes the West Bowl.*



Rut row Rorge.

Color me not surprised though; I'm still taking the position that this will be an uphill (no pun intended) battle.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 17, 2013)

Did the "interactive" map have the west bowl on it previoulsy?


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 17, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Did the "interactive" map have the west bowl on it previoulsy?



Nope.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 17, 2013)

On another note, Bill Stenger was quoted yesterday in a Montreal newspaper saying that work on the West Bowl would start in 2015...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> On another note, Bill Stenger was quoted yesterday in a Montreal newspaper saying that work on the West Bowl would start in 2015...



Which really means 2025.  It was "supposed" to start in what, 2003?  2004?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 18, 2013)

I know this has been hashed out here before, but is it permitting that is holding this up or is it a money thing?


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 18, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Did the "interactive" map have the west bowl on it previoulsy?



I first saw the map at the ski show in the Jay Magazine. It is missing the West Bowl. Previous issues had it. Haven't seen the official Trail Map yet.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I know this has been hashed out here before, but is it permitting that is holding this up or is it a money thing?



Probably both, as well as demand.  And I'd rather have them wait until the time is right to build it instead of rushing.  I just hate the overpromise, underdeliver.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 18, 2013)

Maybe they could phase it in as a back country type area like bracket basin. Although everything I have read is that there isn't much pitch over there.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2013)

There are some spots on the upper 1/3rd of the bowl that will have some decent pitch. According to the master plan. One 350' vert section looks to have a pitch around 38 degrees (77%). However the bottom 1/3rd is pretty flat. The middle 1/3rd is somewhere in between :razz:.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 18, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Maybe they could phase it in as a back country type area like bracket basin. Although everything I have read is that there isn't much pitch over there.



There is a long runout including some climbing to get back to the resort, but there is plenty of pitch along the west bowl ridge.  In fact doll peak and north of doll peak are nearly as steep as the ridge off of Jay Peak.   It levels out mid way but there is solid backcountry potential.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> There is a long runout including some climbing to get back to the resort, but there is plenty of pitch along the west bowl ridge.  In fact doll peak and north of doll peak are nearly as steep as the ridge off of Jay Peak.   It levels out mid way but there is solid backcountry potential.


I like how the lifts stay below the ridge. There could be some great hike to lines off of the Doll Peak and false North Jay summits.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2013)

With screenshot (that 300 foot vert wall in the front left foreground could be a great stache :wink:


----------



## xlr8r (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm pretty convinced that if it ever happens it will only be one additional lift and trail pod.  I do not see them building the three to 4 new lifts.  maybe a second lift to help connect the existing ski area to the west bowl.

But at this point I do not care.  Jay Peak has been touting the west bowl for 20 years now.  YES I SAID 20 YEARS!!! see the map on new england ski history http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/Vermont/jaypeak.php#westbowl It originally appeared on a 1993 map.

It seems as though Jay is content to just continue to add real estate without investing in the mountain.  Wasn't the Bonny supposed to be replaced 2 years ago with a six pack originally.  And now it seems like the six pack is off the table for the foreseeable future.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2013)

I think they are getting their base infrastructure built (while the EB5 program is able to pump in money) so that lots of people can come and stay at the mountain and bring money with them. 
The on mountain improvements have to be funded by the resort. EB5 money can't be used to build lifts and trails since they don't really create enough jobs that can be counted toward their price tag. 
My armchair estimate for jobs created by a lift and trail pod might look something like this:
Costs -
1 HSQ = $4.5 Milllion
Clearing/grading 8 trails = $1 Million
Snowmaking expansion = $4 million
1 groomer = $1 million
Total = 10.5 Million

Jobs created -
3 lift attendants
2 snowmakers
4 patrollers
1 groomer operator 
3 "other directly related jobs"
Total 13 jobs

To cover the $10.5 million, you would need 21 investors. Each one of those investors would need to 10 jobs created to validate their visas. That is 210 jobs. 

Hotels/restaurants etc produce a lot more direct jobs and more easily tracked related jobs and are therefore a more attractive investment.

At least I think that is how it works.

My guess is they are tired of answering the West Bowl expansion question. Once they are done with the build out of Stateside and other condos, they will see what the market will bear for infrastructure development in the West Bowl and will build to demand.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Nov 18, 2013)

Word is that new red chair is on hold until west bowl permits are approved. That could be awhile with the way the state and feds operate. Personally, I love the west bowl, pristine and full of wildlife. Keep it basic and NEK real.
Put a surface lift in and skip the lodges, bars and waffle huts.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2013)

My theory on the Powerline 6 waiting until West Bowl is actually going to be built is that it would likely be cheaper to install 3 or 4 lifts at all at the same time. 
One of the main features of the Powerline 6 would be its higher top terminal which would make traversing to the West Bowl a lot easier. Jay won't really need that feature until the West Bowl is ready to open.


----------



## dlague (Nov 19, 2013)

I will believe it when I see it!


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 20, 2013)

*2014 Construction Projects*

From the Jay Planning Commission & Zoning Board:

Construction Plans for Next Year:



> Presentation by Jay Peak Resort: A preview of construction projects for 2014. Mr. Walter Elander representing Jay Peak Resort stated the resort has plans for three new construction projects for 2014, all concentrated on the Stateside Base Area. The projects are Stateside Mountain Cottages, An Indoor Recreational Center, and The Snowline Medical Center.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> From the Jay Planning Commission & Zoning Board:
> 
> Construction Plans for Next Year:



Things I do not care about basically nor use (hopefully not the clinic )


----------



## dlague (Nov 20, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Things I do not care about basically nor use (hopefully not the clinic )



+1 - unless we decide to stay ay Jay then night time activities may play into our plans.  However, with my parents home being 30 minutes away or the fact that we can day trip it from NH,  not so much.  Since they are selling their home next summer, staying at Jay will be more likely next season going forward or result in more day trips.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 20, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> From the Jay Planning Commission & Zoning Board:
> 
> Construction Plans for Next Year:


Nothing too surprising there. There was rumor that the "boutique movie theater" might be an IMAX. That would be cool.


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 22, 2013)

What's interesting here is that this completes their master plan with the exception of the West Bowl (permit problems) and the Trail modifications (can't use EB5 money).

The only other thing I think needs to be done to Tramside / Stateside is to renovate the Tramside cafeteria. It was originally supposed to be done right after the Tram House Lodge but since this can't be done with EB5 money it has been put off indefinitely.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Nov 22, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> What's interesting here is that this completes their master plan with the exception of the West Bowl (permit problems) and the Trail modifications (*can't use EB5 money*).
> 
> The only other thing I think needs to be done to Tramside / Stateside is to renovate the Tramside cafeteria. It was originally supposed to be done right after the Tram House Lodge but since this *can't be done with EB5 money *it has been put off indefinitely.



kind of makes one wonder where all the money that is not EB5 related is going


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 22, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> kind of makes one wonder where all the money that is not EB5 related is going



Just pondering that myself


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 22, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Just pondering that myself



I assume they keep separate accounting for EB5 projects and mountain ski operations.  Depending on how they allocate costs it's possible that the ski operations are not very profitable.  The large increase in skier-days is certainly due in large part to the new hotels and on-site accommodations.   Lift tickets are complimentary with rentals and may generate little revenues for the mountain operation.  

Ultimately, they must have decided that additional mountain investments would not increase the ski business enough to be worthwhile.   Most mountain improvements over the past 4-5 years have been mostly targeted toward improving the experience of novice and family skiers.  They've added snow guns on many slopes but without increasing the capacity to make snow.   The taxi quad has been added to provide better access to beginner slopes but does not provide anything significantly better than the old T-bar (which had to be destroyed anyway because they are building the last wave of EB5 units right on it).  The west bowl will testify as to Jay's commitment toward its core skiers and we all know how this has been going.

I'm not saying that all development has been bad, but clearly, mountain improvements are severely lagging behind.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 22, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong but even though the vast majority of the current construction is funded by EB5, doesn't a certain percentage of the total have to be funded by the developer (i.e. Jay Peak)? That could be a pretty significant chunk of $ even if it is only 5% of the total cost of these projects.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Nov 22, 2013)

didn't they have over 400K skier visits last year? Seems like that would make a decent egg of money even if they had to come up with 5%

anywhoo.  looking white up here and no sign of it getting less white.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 22, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> didn't they have over 400K skier visits last year? Seems like that would make a decent egg of money even if they had to come up with 5%
> 
> anywhoo.  looking white up here and no sign of it getting less white.


Maybe they are hoarding a bunch of cash to build the Powerline 6, and West Bowl all at once with as little financing as possible? It seems like they have so far been able to avoid borrowing any money from banks to do any of their projects. <End:rose colored glasses>


----------



## xlr8r (Nov 22, 2013)

I thought they still needed to build their planned, roller coaster, go kart track, indoor soccer field, and casino before they could start work on west bowl. Hmmm


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> *I thought they still needed to build their planned, roller coaster, go kart track, indoor soccer field, and casino before they could start work on west bowl. *Hmmm



Don't laugh.   Once you feed from the government trough, you tend to do whatever you can to keep eating. 

 Wouldn't shock me if at some point they "Jump The Shark" to keep foreigner's EB5 money rolling in (if you dont believe they're already done so).  FWIW, my "Jump the Shark" moment was calling for a biotech company in Newport, Vermont, for which I will be positively amazed if that venture doesn't fail (badly).


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2014)

Bump.  An interesting article on EB5:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/03/04/eb-5-national-reports-shine-spotlight-immigrant-investment/


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2014)

wonder if there are any updates on West Bowl.  From the sounds of how busy Jay has been this season, it would seem they could use the extra terrain and lift capacity to spread the crowds out.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.  An interesting article on EB5:



Thanks for bumping. 

You can debate EB5 till you are as blue in the face as the bus in the Bullwheel Bar. What really matters is what people think about the 54 steps at Stateside Lodge...


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 9, 2014)

They are confident they will get the final permits before summer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2014)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Thanks for bumping.
> 
> You can debate EB5 till you are as blue in the face as the bus in the Bullwheel Bar. What really matters is what people think about the 54 steps at Stateside Lodge...



54 steps?


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> 54 steps?



You now have to walk up 54 stairs to get to the Bonnie.  Some think it is a big deal...


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> You now have to walk up 54 stairs to get to the Bonnie.  Some think it is a big deal...



I figured.  We had a similar deal with Sugarbush a few years back with those wooden steps from the parking lot to the Gatehouse Lodge.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I figured.  We had a similar deal with Sugarbush a few years back with those wooden steps from the parking lot to the Gatehouse Lodge.



I did not count the number of steps.  I trust Sick Bird Rider's number.  I don't use the new lodge, but I think the upgrade is worth at least 300 steps.  So 54 is a good deal.   The toilet smell from the old lodge still haunts my dreams.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I did not count the number of steps.  I trust Sick Bird Rider's number.  I don't use the new lodge, but I think the upgrade is worth at least 300 steps.  So 54 is a good deal.   The toilet smell from the old lodge still haunts my dreams.



I think us Burke fans would GLADLY take this 54 steps problem instead of what we have now.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 9, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I did not count the number of steps.  I trust Sick Bird Rider's number.  I don't use the new lodge, but I think the upgrade is worth at least 300 steps.  So 54 is a good deal.   The toilet smell from the old lodge still haunts my dreams.



The 54 count has been verified by several independent auditing agencies. 

My posse is acutely aware of the 54 steps because we have seasonal lockers, which are at parking lot level. If you need (or forget) something from your locker, you go back down the steps, get your item and go back up. My sister has started to store her lunch in the day lodge so she (at 70) does not have go down and up the stairs too many times. First world problem? Absolutely. But it does sort of defeat the purpose of having a locker. Another issue the locker crew has is the single bathroom on the lower level, where you also have the ski shop and ticket sellers. If you miss the old toilet smell, check this bathroom out. I think it must have to pump uphill or something. There is definitely a unique smell in there, not as bad as the old funk but still a little aromatic.


----------



## dlague (Mar 10, 2014)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Thanks for bumping.
> 
> You can debate EB5 till you are as blue in the face as the bus in the Bullwheel Bar. What really matters is what people think about the 54 steps at Stateside Lodge...



Well, I skied there last weekend and it really didn't cross my mind until this post came along!  We also never had to go up and down them either.   We carried our gear to the rack and when we left we skied down.  I find it to be not a big deal.  Then again I take stairs in a building with perfectly fine elevators.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Another Stenger project in trouble.  This was to be used for the big convention center/hotel/restaurant in Downtown Newport. It's not a good sign when Pomerleau is in doubt about this thing:

http://www.newportvermontdailyexpress.com/content/pomerleau-pulls-plug-convention-center

It is just a short snippet.  Hopefully there will be more.....


----------



## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Shoot.  I was in Newport this morning.  Had I seen this I would have bought a newspaper.  

Applying Occam's razor, my guess is that Stenger and Quiros are circling the wagons because they are having a harder and harder time finding investors.  They need to focus on fewer projects because the money just isn't there to do all of what they had originally intended.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Wow, this is sounding worse and worse. Folks should watch the video. 

http://www.wcax.com/story/25430753/p...project-stalls

Tony Pomerleau says that this is off because Bill Stenger doesn't have the money. This is not the first time that Bill has had a great idea and no money to do it. Any other NEKer will recall that he talked for decades about the golf course at Jay. The first time I visited Jay in 1992 they had an ad selling house lots for the golf course that was not built for almost ten years. 

Pomerleau has owned the land since 1932. So he owns it free and clear and is getting revenue from leases. He is going to sign leases with his tenants for up to ten years!

From the story and what Pomerleau said, it sounds like they had entered into an option agreement and Stenger did not come up with the money in time, so it is off. 

What is most troubling to me was that WCAX interviewed both guys before and after their "meeting" with Stenger saying to WCAX they still had a deal and Pomerleau saying no. Very, very troubling. 

Pomerleau also is someone who would not do this so publicly; he is the father-in-law of Senator Leahy, as in the same Senator Leahy that is working with Bill Stenger on the EB-5 stuff. If Pomerleau is openly pulling the plug, then something is really, really wrong here. And I hate to tell Bill but I never go to business meetings dressed like that.


----------



## dlague (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, this is sounding worse and worse. Folks should watch the video.
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/25430753/p...project-stalls
> 
> ...



Thats too bad!  The Waterfront Plaza is a dump and the Cinema there has to go as well!  Unfortunately, they need Anc Bio to get going as well as other initiatives to boost business in that area!  I wonder what will happen with the Renaissance Project in Newport?!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

dlague said:


> Thats too bad!  The Waterfront Plaza is a dump and the Cinema there has to go as well!  Unfortunately, they need Anc Bio to get going as well as other initiatives to boost business in that area!  I wonder what will happen with the Renaissance Project in Newport?!



Sounds like a big part of it is not going to happen....

And don't forget the Merck Window Factory not moving ahead.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

*BFP on the issue...nothing really new other than Stenger did not have the money.*


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 17, 2014)

New Burlington Free Press Article today:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../stenger-foreign-investment-vermont/12747335/


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 17, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> New Burlington Free Press Article today:
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../stenger-foreign-investment-vermont/12747335/



As we suspected:
_"It's always been competitive, now it's extremely competitive," Raymond said.

Raymond, who is leaving this week for his fourth trip to China in the past year, said Vermont also suffers from being so small. In Shanghai, a city of 20 million people, the idea of an entire state — what the Chinese think of as a province — with 620,000 people does not inspire confidence.

_


----------



## dlague (Jul 17, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> New Burlington Free Press Article today:
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../stenger-foreign-investment-vermont/12747335/



Long article, but it was interesting.  Nothing too surprising.  Sad to see stories like that guy (Chicago, shocking) who illegally secured 145 million when it could have gone to other legit projects.  Wonder how many others are pulling that stunt.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 17, 2014)

Two things caught my eye:
1) AnC Bio is 75% funded.
2) Stenger & Quiros chip in 10%.  

Even though Quiros has some money, that's a LOT of money we are talking about.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2014)

Not to take a victory-lap a few years into the prediction, but it's clear the EB-5 government boondoggle is well underway: 



> *Projects in Vermont are up against projects in major cities*. In New  York, *EB-5 funds are being raised for a hotel going into the Freedom  Tower* being built at One World Trade Center, and *in Las Vegas, EB-5  investors are being invited to buy into casinos*, according to Raymond.



It's a loosely-enforced, cash-grab, money-run now, and the entire meaning and point of the program has been absurdly bastardized at this point.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Two things caught my eye:
> *1) AnC Bio is 75% funded.*
> 2) Stenger & Quiros chip in 10%.
> 
> Even though Quiros has some money, that's a LOT of money we are talking about.



This is the riskiest part of the venture, IMO.  Biotech is mostly centered in California, New Jersey, and Boston, and it's a culture as much as an industry.  How they're going to get qualified applicants and researchers to move to northern VT is beyond me, unless this is_ really_ just going to be "manufacturing" and they're dressing it up for now.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's a loosely-enforced, cash-grab, money-run now, and the entire meaning and point of the program has been absurdly bastardized at this point.



I generally agree with your statement, but ultimately, what's wrong with it ?  After all, most countries do have investors immigration programs. As long as the quotas are reasonable it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the riskiest part of the venture, IMO.  Biotech is mostly centered in California, New Jersey, and Boston, and it's a culture as much as an industry.  How they're going to get qualified applicants and researchers to move to northern VT is beyond me, unless this is_ really_ just going to be "manufacturing" and they're dressing it up for now.




As much as I love the NEK, I just don't see this in Newport.   But heck, I though the Icehouse and the Aquapark were also dead-end ideas...  

I sure hope they can pull it off.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 21, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> most countries do have investors immigration programs. .



For sure.  

About ten years ago I briefly entertained the thought of moving abroad to either Australia or New Zealand.  If I was a nurse or doctor, both countries would have welcomed me with open arms for an extended stay.  As a hospitality worker, I needed to find a host business to commit to hiring me to secure anything more than a 90 day work Visa.  

However, if I was willing to deposit $300K into one of their National Banks for a set period of time (I believe it was three years); I could have gone over and hung out as long as I liked.


----------



## dlague (Jul 24, 2014)

Jay Peaks new out door venue!  It does look a little out of place.  They have not built the roof section yet but the rest is in place for their first outdoor concert series - Jeezum Crow.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 24, 2014)

I still don't understand why they did not extend seating in a semi-circular fashion.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 24, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I generally agree with your statement, but ultimately, what's wrong with it ?  After all, most countries do have investors immigration programs. As long as the quotas are reasonable it makes a lot of sense.



You agree with my statement, but wonder why it's bad?   I dont get it.   At any rate, I think it's pretty awful.   I also approach it from the standpoint of being completely economically fraudulent in terms of the accounting as it relates to the financial benefit to the region.  Not to mention there will be unintended negative consequences that will come from this, it's just that it takes some years for them to materialize.  You've already seen the first negative consequence, which was Jay Peak acquiring "QBurke".



dlague said:


> Jay Peaks new out door venue!  It does look a little out of place.



It looks a little underwhelming.  Doesnt look like seating for any more than 800 from the picture.   Maybe they're not done?   I'm guessing they'll allow picnic seating (aka Lawn seating) as well.



fbrissette said:


> I still don't understand why they did not extend seating in a semi-circular fashion.



Good question, that would have been far more logical.


----------



## dlague (Jul 24, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I still don't understand why they did not extend seating in a semi-circular fashion.



Lawn seating which is cheaper than actual seats?


.......


----------



## Edd (Jul 24, 2014)

dlague said:


> Lawn seating which is cheaper than actual seats?
> 
> 
> .......



Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right. That's where I'd be sitting.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2014)

Didn't Stowe try a concert venue at Spruce Peak some years ago?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I still don't understand why they did not extend seating in a semi-circular fashion.



Looks like just cost containment.  Cost of the seating itself as well as it doesn't appear the roof would extend out and off to the sides.  It may work out better acoustically as well as more of the stage sound can escape out the sides without the roof extending out to the sides.  Granted, they could have uncovered fixed seating in those locations. 
 But, I think it's a good thing the roof is going to cover only small area.  Most shed type concert amphitheaters have pretty crappy sound on the lawns compared to under the pavilion. 

It looks like they'll have three tiers of seating/pricing.  Covered seated, lower lawn off to the sides and then upper lawn above the paved concourse.  What will be nice about the lower lawn sections is they'll be GA, which will be pretty unique to offer since you'll be able to get almost as close to the stage as the covered seats.  It looks like a pretty cool mid-sized outdoor venue capable of holding 2-3K people.  Wish I could make it up there for Dark Start Orchestra.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Didn't Stowe try a concert venue at Spruce Peak some years ago?



Yes.  I saw Santana there in 1994.  Phish played there a couple of years too. It was a more temporary venue, but far larger attendance than you'll likely see at Jay.  The Stowe concerts had attendances for some shows of 15K people.  The locals essentially got pissed at the all the garbage thrown on the side of the roads in the long traffic lines getting to and going from the shows.  So, they stopped hosting large events.  

Sugarbush hosted Phish at their summer stage a couple of years too, which I also attended.   Those shows were even bigger; had to be 20K+ people.


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 28, 2014)

New article on EB-5 problems for Jay

http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/27/vtdigger-exclusive-jay-peak-loses-trust-first-eb-5-investors/


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 28, 2014)

Already being discussed in another thread:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/131349-Jay-Peak-bombshell


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 28, 2014)

Will they remove the seating in the winter, rope it off or just blow snow over it? going with number 2 myself.


----------



## dlague (Jul 28, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Will they remove the seating in the winter, rope it off or just blow snow over it? going with number 2 myself.



Yup #2


----------

