# Killington = EPIC FAIL.  Late March 2012 no snowmaking edition.



## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

So, it seems that Loon (really, Loon?), Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Jay Peak, and Wildcat can all make snow, RIGHT NOW. 



			
				shortski said:
			
		

> At Sunday River
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

But Killington, the mighty Beast of the East, King of Spring, is down to 5 trails, one lift, and can't even muster some snowmaking on Superstar to allow them to stay open a couple more weekends? At this rate, the'll be lucky to make it to easter (April 8th).

This is after blowing most of their pathetic snowmaking budget on Bear / dew tour, failing to make snow on many expert trails, and skimping on middle superstar which is clearly going to melt out.

This is what I think of Killington's management and strategy.

uke:
uke:
uke:
uke:
uke:

Good luck with your pass sales and overpriced village real estate.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 26, 2012)

Why another thread to complain about snow making at Killington ? Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Jay Peak, and Wildcat passholders should be complaining that they didn't get a FREE lunch on Saturday.


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## legalskier (Mar 26, 2012)

Note to Mods:

Please change this thread's title to *Props to SR, SL, Jay, Loon & Wildcat for late season snowmaking!*

Let's accentuate the positive for a refreshing change.


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## skiersleft (Mar 26, 2012)

Please merge this thread with the other one in which HS complains about Killington. Or the other one. As I've heard mods say, there's no need to have several threads dissing Killington at the same time. Keeping all the dissing in one thread makes reading this blog a better experience for the rest of us.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

This is it's own thread about it's own topic - that Killington did not make snow when they should have.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 26, 2012)

I know I've said this before, but at some point doesn't it become more of a PR or Marketing expense to blow a little snow as opposed to an Operational expense? Absolute props to those ski areas that are blowing snow. Killington is not looking good. Have you seen their Facebook page? And those are just the posts they have not deleted yet!


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## SkiFanE (Mar 26, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I know I've said this before, but at some point doesn't it become more of a PR or Marketing expense to blow a little snow as opposed to an Operational expense? Absolute props to those ski areas that are blowing snow. Killington is not looking good. Have you seen their Facebook page? And those are just the posts they have not deleted yet!



Yes, completely.  My hubby rode a lift with a SR marketing head and this is what he was told, at least for their early October type of snowmaking.  Suspect it's similar for this late year snowmaking.  Also...SR still has great coverage on many trails, just need some help with connectors, lift areas, a few bald spots, etc...they probably don't have to do tons of snowblowing to keep the place going.  Also have some huge jumps and the half pipe to farm if needed.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2012)

Killington's response on Facebook:  



> We won’t be making any  additional snow during what appears to be a brief snowmaking window this  week. We have made a lot of snow in the Superstar area and that snow is  holding up well considering the week of record temps we just had. We  plan to maintain that snow the best we can and keep the lift spinning  through April or as long as Mother Nature allows.


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## skiadikt (Mar 26, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> Yes, completely.  My hubby rode a lift with a SR marketing head and this is what he was told, at least for their early October type of snowmaking.  Suspect it's similar for this late year snowmaking.  Also...SR still has great coverage on many trails, just need some help with connectors, lift areas, a few bald spots, etc...they probably don't have to do tons of snowblowing to keep the place going.  Also have some huge jumps and the half pipe to farm if needed.



plus most of those areas picked up the brits that k lost, so suddenly they're flushed with $$$ that was supposed to go to k. and yeah with next season's passes currently on sale it's a great way to showcase those areas. i try not agree with hs, but fail all around for k.


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## drjeff (Mar 26, 2012)

And even with this, the vast majority of K regulars here on AZ will still be at K next year B$ching about the same basic things they always seem to.  If you're that pissed off about what K is TODAY, then leave and take your business someplace else.  Otherwise get used to the fact the Pres Smith is NEVER coming back, Superstar will more than likely NEVER have 30 feet or so of base on it again and that your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months.  Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap! 

K is a great mountain, unlike any in the East for what it offers in terms of variety.  But things change over time, that's just life.  If you can't change it back, then you might as well reasses if you really wan to be at a place that more and more seems to make so many of you miserable more than it makes you happy


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## hammer (Mar 26, 2012)

drjeff said:


> And even with this, the vast majority of K regulars here on AZ will still be at K next year B$ching about the same basic things they always seem to.  If you're that pissed off about what K is TODAY, then leave and take your business someplace else.  Otherwise get used to the fact the Pres Smith is NEVER coming back, Superstar will more than likely NEVER have 30 feet or so of base on it again and that your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months.  Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap!
> 
> K is a great mountain, unlike any in the East for what it offers in terms of variety.  But things change over time, that's just life.  If you can't change it back, then you might as well reasses if you really wan to be at a place that more and more seems to make so many of you miserable more than it makes you happy



I don't understand these endless threads picking on a ski area either.  If you don't like going there or don't like how they conduct business, make a few complaints and then go somewhere else.  It's not like we don't have any other ski areas to go to here in NE.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

drjeff said:


> ..... your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months. Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap!


 
Actually, the season was never nine months, more like 8ish.   It has been a consistant 5-1/2 months over the last few years.  I would be satisfied with a 200 day season, from late october to the 2nd weekend in May.

And......I may buy a $729 blackout pass, but I'll ski 50+ days on it and not spend any other money with Killington resort or businesses they own.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 26, 2012)

drjeff said:


> And even with this, the vast majority of K regulars here on AZ will still be at K next year B$ching about the same basic things they always seem to.  If you're that pissed off about what K is TODAY, then leave and take your business someplace else.  Otherwise get used to the fact the Pres Smith is NEVER coming back, Superstar will more than likely NEVER have 30 feet or so of base on it again and that your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months.  Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap!
> 
> K is a great mountain, unlike any in the East for what it offers in terms of variety.  But things change over time, that's just life.  If you can't change it back, then you might as well reasses if you really wan to be at a place that more and more seems to make so many of you miserable more than it makes you happy



To defend some of the K bashers, I can see their point.  We bought off-mountain at SR in the ASC days.  Love SR, but there were also non-ski related reasons why we chose to buy at SR (or else we'd be at Stowe lol).  So when ASC sold to Boyne we had to hold our breath, really had no clue what we were in for.  So if they took the Powdr route and disappointed us, I'd definately be in the whiner camp.  We plan to keep our place for a looooooong time, so if I had to deal with what the K regulars have to deal with, I'd be majorly pissed about Powdr fucking up my lifetime plans lol.  Skied K last year and had a great time, but glad I'm at a place that thinks and acts like a ski fanatic.  SO thankful for Boyne.


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## vdk03 (Mar 26, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Actually, the season was never nine months, more like 8ish.   It has been a consistant 5-1/2 months over the last few years.  I would be satisfied with a 200 day season, from late october to the 2nd weekend in May.
> 
> And......I may buy a $729 blackout pass, but I'll ski 50+ days on it and not spend any other money with Killington resort or businesses they own.



Why even buy the blackout pass if your so dissatisfied with what you've been getting as a customer there? Do you consitinly buy other products that you feel fail this often?
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


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## Gilligan (Mar 26, 2012)

hammer said:


> I don't understand these endless threads picking on a ski area either.  If you don't like going there or don't like how they conduct business, make a few complaints and then go somewhere else.  It's not like we don't have any other ski areas to go to here in NE.



The threads are only "endless" because of one person's excessive posts on the topic. It is not fair to blame all Killington regulars for HS's posts.


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## hammer (Mar 26, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> To defend some of the K bashers, I can see their point.  We bought off-mountain at SR in the ASC days.  Love SR, but there were also non-ski related reasons why we chose to buy at SR (or else we'd be at Stowe lol).  So when ASC sold to Boyne we had to hold our breath, really had no clue what we were in for.  So if they took the Powdr route and disappointed us, I'd definately be in the whiner camp.  We plan to keep our place for a looooooong time, so if I had to deal with what the K regulars have to deal with, I'd be majorly pissed about Powdr fucking up my lifetime plans lol.  Skied K last year and had a great time, but glad I'm at a place that thinks and acts like a ski fanatic.  SO thankful for Boyne.


If a K basher has property in the area and feels that their investment is threatened by bad management at a ski area then I'd say they have a right to complain.  Not sure that applies in this case.



Gilligan said:


> The threads are only "endless" because of one person's excessive posts on the topic. It is not fair to blame all Killington regulars for HS's posts.


I'm aware that one person  appears to be responsible and never blamed all Killington regulars.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> The threads are only "endless" because of one person's excessive posts on the topic. It is not fair to blame all Killington regulars for HS's posts.


 
Why don't you head on over to K-zone and share your views?  I'm sure you will be well received!


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

But, just to humor our "little buddy", here are a few threads criticising Killington, not started by me:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=107664
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=106681
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=106276
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=93570
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=95244


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## Gilligan (Mar 26, 2012)

HighwayStar, the most recent of those threads you are using as examples is already 2 months old. Two of those threads are from last season. If that is the best you can do then you just proved my point.

I also like the way you respond to my complaint about excessive posting by adding two more posts on the subject. Good job!

With regards to Kzone, of course there is a lot of complaining there. It is KillingtonZone after all. That is where most of your complaining belongs. When you do so much of it here it just make us all look bad.


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## Geoff (Mar 26, 2012)

drjeff said:


> And even with this, the vast majority of K regulars here on AZ will still be at K next year B$ching about the same basic things they always seem to.  If you're that pissed off about what K is TODAY, then leave and take your business someplace else.  Otherwise get used to the fact the Pres Smith is NEVER coming back, Superstar will more than likely NEVER have 30 feet or so of base on it again and that your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months.  Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap!
> 
> K is a great mountain, unlike any in the East for what it offers in terms of variety.  But things change over time, that's just life.  If you can't change it back, then you might as well reasses if you really wan to be at a place that more and more seems to make so many of you miserable more than it makes you happy



OK.   Put your money where your mouth is.   Buy my condo at the price it would command if Killington still received 1,000,000 skier visits and had a 7 month season.   I'll happily change mountains.


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## bigbob (Mar 26, 2012)

I skied Killington on Saturday AM. Started at 8 AM at Superstar. Only one way down early since grooming did not occur on Superstar and Lower Skylark. The snow had refrozen and was not ready yet. Had a good hour, then the crowds grew. Still only one way down. Narrow areas on Bittersweet, loose granular was getting scraped down to pond ice with piles of sand (FG). Slow skiers were starting to choke up the slopes. it was getting somewhat dangerous in spots. When I got to the bottom I expressed my concerns to A "Ski Ambassador" who was standing at the lift entrance. He seemed to give two shits about what I had to say. Three of us jumped into the car and went over to Bear where crowding was less of an issue. Quit at noon and did not ski the rest of the day.
 There was little snow left to farm to widen the narrow spots on the trails. Superstar has adequate snow for awhile, but they should spend a little money on snowmaking to widen and enhance the base on Lower Bittersweet. The have shut down all sorts of lifts early, the money budgeted for electricity should go to blowing a small amount of additional snow.
 I realize last weeks weather was so typical of this past winter and not a normal winter, but unless the limit ticket sales I feel they should at least try and enhance what is left of there terrain.
 I was going to upgrade to a full pass this year and forgo my New England pass, but now i think I will stay with the Blackout and continue with the New England silver pass for Boyne resorts in the east.


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## skiadikt (Mar 26, 2012)

drjeff said:


> And even with this, the vast majority of K regulars here on AZ will still be at K next year B$ching about the same basic things they always seem to.  If you're that pissed off about what K is TODAY, then leave and take your business someplace else.  Otherwise get used to the fact the Pres Smith is NEVER coming back, Superstar will more than likely NEVER have 30 feet or so of base on it again and that your season now is 6 to 7 months instead of 9 months.  Some of you are really starting to sound likely a bunch of whiny, spoiled brats who need a nap!
> 
> K is a great mountain, unlike any in the East for what it offers in terms of variety.  But things change over time, that's just life.  If you can't change it back, then you might as well reasses if you really wan to be at a place that more and more seems to make so many of you miserable more than it makes you happy



unfortunately TODAY, due to real estate commitments & friends who also have real estate who we've been skiing at k with since the last-80's, just picking up and leaving isn't that easy - as you as a property owner know full well whether it's your mt snow condo or ct home. and many of the whiners & complainers who you're incessantly whining & complaining about are in the same boat. consider yourself lucky to be at a mtn with progressive as opposed to regressive management.

AND some of the whining & complaining did get heard as management reversed field on a number of their initial moves. 

btw no one's forcing you to rubberneck at these killington threads.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> HighwayStar, the most recent of those threads you are using as examples is already 2 months old. Two of those threads are from last season. If that is the best you can do then you just proved my point.
> 
> I also like the way you respond to my complaint about excessive posting by adding two more posts on the subject. Good job!
> 
> With regards to Kzone, of course there is a lot of complaining there. It is KillingtonZone after all. That is where most of your complaining belongs. When you do so much of it here it just make us all look bad.


 
Are you a killington skier?  For how long?  Or actually an employee or otherwise a shill poster?  Regardless, I suggest you take your head out of the sand.  Killington has been making very unpopular operational decisions since before POWDR took over 5 years ago, and people have been complaining about it online for just as long.  

Your stance on this issue is the minority one, and not supported by reality.  The ones who look bad here are POWDR Corp, SP Land, E2M Capital, and Killington Management.

Killington is a very popular topic here on alpinezone, otherwise people would not be posting in the treads.  Proof is in the pudding.   Just because I start many of them is not particularly relevant.

Perhaps, you're "new to the internet", so let me explain how things work here on the internet:

*If you don't feel it's worth discussing, feel free to not post in the threads.  Nobody is making you.  *

I'm not breaking any rules, making personal attacks, starting flame wars, distorting the truth, trolling or spamming.  I'm expressing my opinion, repeatedly, in a privately owned forum offered for public use.

Oh, and thanks again for the free bump you're going to give by replying to this thread.


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## Gilligan (Mar 26, 2012)

HighwayStar, you wrote about me: "Your stance on this issue is the minority one, and not supported by reality."

I think you are confused as to what my stance is, so let me clarify. My stance is that you creating and excessively posting these Killington=Fail type threads has changed the argument from "Killington" to "can you believe that HighwayStar is doing it again?" The fact that the mods keep merging your threads is proof that I am not alone in this thought. You think you are helping to fix the problems we have with Killington, but instead you are making them worse. Because of you many otherwise valid complaints are dismissed as "that guy is just being a jerk again."

That is my issue. Enjoy your bump.


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## Robbski (Mar 26, 2012)

Kind of so many to spend so much time and effort in seeing to the dietary needs of the troll population.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> HighwayStar, you wrote about me: "Your stance on this issue is the minority one, and not supported by reality."
> 
> I think you are confused as to what my stance is, so let me clarify. My stance is that you creating and excessively posting these Killington=Fail type threads has changed the argument from "Killington" to "can you believe that HighwayStar is doing it again?" The fact that the mods keep merging your threads is proof that I am not alone in this thought. You think you are helping to fix the problems we have with Killington, but instead you are making them worse. Because of you many otherwise valid complaints are dismissed as "that guy is just being a jerk again."
> 
> That is my issue. Enjoy your bump.


 
Duly noted, and I appriciate your opinion.

Thanks for the free bump!


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> I think you are confused as to what my stance is, so let me clarify. My stance is that you creating and excessively posting these Killington=Fail type threads has changed the argument from "Killington" to "can you believe that HighwayStar is doing it again?" The fact that the mods keep merging your threads is proof that I am not alone in this thought. You think you are helping to fix the problems we have with Killington, but instead you are making them worse. Because of you many otherwise valid complaints are dismissed as "that guy is just being a jerk again."


 
And just to be clear, it's nothing more than what I posted in the other thread:



Highway Star said:


> *I'm just calling them out on every poor decision they make.*


 
You're welcome to look at their facebook page and see that I'm not the only one complaining. Since I do not participate on facebook, Alpinezone is my prefered venue. Maybe I just post more often than others.

http://www.facebook.com/killingtonresort



> Mother Nature is dropping in with some snow right now at Killington. A little reminder that winter ain't over yet.
> 
> 
> Miguel Figueroa When are u guys planning closing ? 7 hours ago
> ...


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## mister moose (Mar 26, 2012)

bigbob said:


> I skied Killington on Saturday AM. Started at 8 AM at Superstar. Only one way down early since grooming did not occur on Superstar and Lower Skylark. The snow had refrozen and was not ready yet. Had a good hour, then the crowds grew. Still only one way down. Narrow areas on Bittersweet, loose granular was getting scraped down to pond ice with piles of sand (FG). Slow skiers were starting to choke up the slopes. it was getting somewhat dangerous in spots. When I got to the bottom I expressed my concerns to A "Ski Ambassador" who was standing at the lift entrance. He seemed to give two shits about what I had to say. Three of us jumped into the car and went over to Bear where crowding was less of an issue. Quit at noon and did not ski the rest of the day.
> There was little snow left to farm to widen the narrow spots on the trails. Superstar has adequate snow for awhile, but they should spend a little money on snowmaking to widen and enhance the base on Lower Bittersweet. The have shut down all sorts of lifts early, the money budgeted for electricity should go to blowing a small amount of additional snow.
> I realize last weeks weather was so typical of this past winter and not a normal winter, but unless the limit ticket sales I feel they should at least try and enhance what is left of there terrain.
> I was going to upgrade to a full pass this year and forgo my New England pass, but now i think I will stay with the Blackout and continue with the New England silver pass for Boyne resorts in the east.



Agree.  This would extend the life of the only groomer in the current Spring lineup.  Ms Moose and all like her will have nothing to ski on.

And Robbski, while Highway Star is sometimes prolific, sometimes unrealistic, sometimes undocumented, sometimes egotistical, and sometimes loses his temper, he is not a troll.  He is passionate about skiing, and trying (in his own way) to grow that passion in others.  He was on the hill yesterday, were you?  If POWDR was as passionate about skiing as HS is, this thread wouldn't exist.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> HighwayStar, you wrote about me: "Your stance on this issue is the minority one, and not supported by reality."
> 
> I think you are confused as to what my stance is, so let me clarify. My stance is that you creating and excessively posting these Killington=Fail type threads has changed the argument from "Killington" to "can you believe that HighwayStar is doing it again?" The fact that the mods keep merging your threads is proof that I am not alone in this thought. You think you are helping to fix the problems we have with Killington, but instead you are making them worse. Because of you many otherwise valid complaints are dismissed as "that guy is just being a jerk again."
> 
> That is my issue. Enjoy your bump.



Jesus Christ!  Stop fucking reading the god damn thread you fucking troll!  If you see a Killington post with OG of HS don't read the friggin thing you tool!  I think you alone have probably added another page or two this thread.


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## aveski2000 (Mar 26, 2012)

Saddleback is also making snow.


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

aveski2000 said:


> Saddleback is also making snow.



Saddleback *cares*.


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## Black Phantom (Mar 26, 2012)

Killington should do the right thing.


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

It must be like a wasteland up there right now.


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

Nick asked me to post a link to this thread.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=18298


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 27, 2012)

It really pains me to say that I'm with HS on this one. Its kind of like the boy crying wolf deal.So many negative K threads delute his messages.Before I read this thread though,I already was wondering if K would step up with the other 5 reasorts and show their commitment and make snow.Looks like a NO.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2012)

Let's try and look objectively at why K might of made the descision to NOT make more snow now.

#1 - the "British Invasion" - let's be honest, if you've ever seen a British invasion before, the vast majority of this generally high school/early college aged Brits aren't the best of skiers/riders and tend to rely on the availability of easier terrain and ski school help.

Based on the blowtorch of a weather system that was inplace.  K lost all of Snowshed and Ramshead, and while I haven't seen any current picture,  I did see that terrain 1st hand just before the warm weather hit when I was at K with my kids for the Mountain Dew Vertical Challenge qualifier race.  The base in both of those areas, as was the case with so much terrain all over New England never had a chance againt that extened run of warm air.  K would likely be starting from close to scratch to get that terrain open to satisfy the majority of the needs of the Brits.  Doubtful at best if even the massive firepower of the K snowmaking system could 1st get enough snow made to get that terrain reopened and then keep it going until the Brits arrive in another 10 days or so.  Beginners and lower intermediates on Superstar just doesn't work.  If you look at what Loon and SR and the Loaf still have to offer, there's still a "decent" amount of terrain available for what the majority of the Brits would be looking for.  

#2 Given the reality that they couldn't likely offer that type of product for the Brits, and that they still have feet of base on Superstar, and that this year more so than many other years has really shifted the thoughts of the masses away from spring skiing/riding to warm weather activities.  The thought likely came down to should they spend tens of thousands of dollars to fire the system back up, when in reality i'm sure they're looking at their snowpack and thinking that Easter weekend might be it, thus either eating away at whatever profit they might of made this year or increase the loss?  If they had fired their snowmaking system back up, BUT just on the terrain that the majority of the Brits would be using, would that have come off as any better amongst the K faithful??

K has their business model now.  Not everyone agrees with their business model.  K feels that their business model allows them to meet the financial obligations that they have.  People keep coming to K and spending their money.  This year has presented many different weather related situations both before and during the season that have never been experienced in such a short amount of time, and more than often required a large capital expense to deal with them.  I'm guessing that K, a while ago, either met, or exceeded it's preseason snowmaking budget target number.  Emotions, as is often the case about a passionate subject have been introduced into the equation here.  Facts and emotions are often at odds with one another in situations like this. I'm not saying that I totally agree and/or like the K plan now, since a strong, agressive K is GREAT for the entire New England ski scene as it forces other areas to step up or step aside.  All i'm saying is that when you eliminate the emotion from the equation, I can see how the facts appear to line up in their decsion making process


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Let's try and look objectively at why K might of made the descision to NOT make more snow now.
> 
> #1 - the "British Invasion" - let's be honest, if you've ever seen a British invasion before, the vast majority of this generally high school/early college aged Brits aren't the best of skiers/riders and tend to rely on the availability of easier terrain and ski school help.
> 
> ...



All makes perfect sense for a penny pincher.  That's not me...bottom line doesn't drive my entertainment/recreation decisions all the time.  I think everyone agrees a business has to be profitable, but there are different ways to squeeze out a profit and it seems lots of people don't like how K does that.  Not sure what went on the upper echelons of SR management to decide to blow snow, but they obviously didn't ONLY consider the profit/loss, but that the PR, smiles and goodwill probably do a heck of a lot more good then holding back to save what is relatively peanuts.  Do you know how much gatorade, chips, pizzas and things 800 teenage Brits consume?  LOL..


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2012)

hammer said:


> If a K basher has property in the area and feels that their investment is threatened by bad management at a ski area then I'd say they have a right to complain.  Not sure that applies in this case.



Just clarifying...I never said my property was an "investment" - we bought it to park our money and become a real skiing family.  If we weren't happy with the ski slope we committed to, it'd be a bummer...it's not a cheap venture but buying property makes the most sense long term, IMO.  I don't know the cost of K passes, programs, etc...but SR went up after sold by ASC but i think it's very reasonable.  Closing before May Day was a big loss for SR regulars, but personally didn't affect us much.


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## pepperdawg (Mar 27, 2012)

Free Da Dis!!!!!!!


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Let's try and look objectively at why K might of made the descision to NOT make more snow now.
> 
> #1 - the "British Invasion" - let's be honest, if you've ever seen a British invasion before, the vast majority of this generally high school/early college aged Brits aren't the best of skiers/riders and tend to rely on the availability of easier terrain and ski school help.
> 
> ...


 
Killington's business model now means that the Dew Tour gets priority over opening normal advanced terrain. It means that there is no buffer for bad weather, ie. they are not durable in bad seasons. And regardless of business model, they made a major tactical error in not making more snow (either mid season or NOW) on middle superstar. And upper skyelark. And everywhere else.

*But what it really means, is that Killington has lost it's value proposition for the vacationer or day ticket skier. Okemo, Stratton, Sugarbush and Stowe all offer far better mid season skiing product and much better value, which is why Killington has been shedding skier visits to them for the past decade.  You can go to Stowe and spend $90 on a ticket and actually feel like you got your money's worth.*

*Without a premium snowmaking effort, running a reasonable number of lifts, and an extended season, Killington has cutbacked itself into being a 2nd tier ski resort.......the ghetto of Vermont skiing.*

(for me sking on a pass for $15 a day, the value is OK).


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> All makes perfect sense for a penny pincher.  That's not me...bottom line doesn't drive my entertainment/recreation decisions all the time.  I think everyone agrees a business has to be profitable, but there are different ways to squeeze out a profit and it seems lots of people don't like how K does that.  Not sure what went on the upper echelons of SR management to decide to blow snow, but they obviously didn't ONLY consider the profit/loss, but that the PR, smiles and goodwill probably do a heck of a lot more good then holding back to save what is relatively peanuts.  Do you know how much gatorade, chips, pizzas and things 800 teenage Brits consume?  LOL..



Totally get how much $$ 800 or so teenage brits spend on sugary snack foods (have you ever seen a typical Brit's teeth?  )  

From what I garner, it sounds like SR and Loon needed to just patch up some of the terrain that so many of the Brits would be using.  K, based on what I skied on at K, the day before the warm air arrived, is more likely looking at basically having to start over on the terrain that so many of the Brit's would be using. And having to blow enougn snow to reopen from likely close to scratch a few miles of terrain on some "gooey" ground now is a totally different situation than some patch work.  With modern snowmaking technology, most heads of mountain ops these days can find out within a few hundred dollars what it would cost, given anticipated weather conditions to open a trail, and i'm sure those figures were weighed against the amount of revenue that the Brits were committed to for lodging, rentals and lessons and best guess based on past years of the amount of food and beverage revenue they consume.

If anything the biggest arguement against longer operations today for many a GM/Mountain Ops manager is the simple fact that modern technology today can give such a much more accurrate figure as to what it actually costs to make snow on a trail vs. the past where there was much more guess work involved.  And in the business world there is a difference between hearing something like "I think it will cost around 20 grand to get that trail open" vs. "it will cost $22,750 based on X hours running Y number of this type of guns or we could open it for $24,250 based on Y number of that type of gun running for Z hours"  Too much info can be both interesting and scary sometimes.

I never fully appreciated the "bean counter" side of things until I started running my own business and was signing the checks and really became aware of actual return on investment vs. theorectical/perceived return on investment.  It's one thing to look at it when it's "other peoples money" it's another thing to look at it when it's YOUR money


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star,  got your Mega Millions ticket purchased?  News this morning said the Jackpot is like $350M.  You could be the new owner.


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## twinplanx (Mar 27, 2012)

While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion"  Is there some sort of English Holiday or what?  Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?


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## bobbutts (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I never fully appreciated the "bean counter" side of things until I started running my own business and was signing the checks and really became aware of actual return on investment vs. theorectical/perceived return on investment.  It's one thing to look at it when it's "other peoples money" it's another thing to look at it when it's YOUR money



When it's YOUR money you have to consider the long term just as much as the next quarter's p/l. Killington is not a small business with a single person in charge.  I think it was more like that with Pres Smith, look at the types of decisions that were made then vs. now.


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## bobbutts (Mar 27, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Highway Star,  got your Mega Millions ticket purchased?  News this morning said the Jackpot is like $350M.  You could be the new owner.



I'd buy a lifetime pass at HS's K


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## bobbutts (Mar 27, 2012)

twinplanx said:


> While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion"  Is there some sort of English Holiday or what?  Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?



There was a group trip booked at Killington reportedly 800 British skiers that has been cancelled this year due to lack of coverage.  I remember there were similar invasions back in the 90's so I believe it's been a long term annual thing.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2012)

twinplanx said:


> While I do agree w/ HS here, it does suck that K won't blow...I do not have time to scan the five or so pages, so can some one explain the aforementioned "British Invasion"  Is there some sort of English Holiday or what?  Also a question for the infamous HighwayStar: What keeps you coming back to Killington?



At SR gaggles of HS students from Britain descend in early April.  They seem to be put into groups of 20-30 to ski, I think they have a guide/leader from SR (?).  Just your typical unruly teens with cool English accents.  I'm sure they are important to the mountain at a time when it's getting deserted.  And I'm joking about unruly...just your typical self centered teens lol.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> I'd buy a lifetime pass at HS's K



Please don't mention "lifetime passes" in the context of Killington.  We finally stopped having :flame: threads on that one!  :lol:


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If anything the biggest arguement against longer operations today for many a GM/Mountain Ops manager is the simple fact that modern technology today can give such a much more accurrate figure as to what it actually costs to make snow on a trail vs. the past where there was much more guess work involved. And in the business world there is a difference between hearing something like "I think it will cost around 20 grand to get that trail open" vs. "it will cost $22,750 based on X hours running Y number of this type of guns or we could open it for $24,250 based on Y number of that type of gun running for Z hours" Too much info can be both interesting and scary sometimes.


 
I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.


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## 2knees (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.




http://www.allsportsevents.com/Results/triathlon_results/KT02ResultsbySex.pdf


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## gmcunni (Mar 27, 2012)

2knees said:


> http://www.allsportsevents.com/Results/triathlon_results/KT02ResultsbySex.pdf



anybody famous on that list?


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## 2knees (Mar 27, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> anybody famous on that list?



Bob Hope.


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## gmcunni (Mar 27, 2012)

2knees said:


> Bob Hope.



how old are you that you pick bob hope as the famous person on that list.

funny thing, i scanned all the names from CT - i see an old friend from High School on the list.


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## Gilligan (Mar 27, 2012)

SIKSKIER said:


> It really pains me to say that I'm with HS on this one. Its kind of like the boy crying wolf deal.So many negative K threads delute his messages.Before I read this thread though,I already was wondering if K would step up with the other 5 reasorts and show their commitment and make snow.Looks like a NO.



I agree.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't have a horse in this race but it seems to me that is unusual for any mountain to choose to make snow at the end of march.  I'm sure those that are, have their reasons, but given that this time of year is not profitable in the best of times, it's hard to criticize those that aren't.  also, energy costs are up significantly from a decade ago.

That being said, what kind of money are we talking about 10k, 100k???  

isn't there also the issue of human resources?  aren't the snow makers already off the payroll and onto other things/places?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2012)

Hard to put a dollar figure on brand identity.  The investment is good if it means more season passes and day visitors the following season.  It's especially good if you have real estate to sell, which has a high ROI and your buyers are people looking for the longest season.

 Boyne has clearly established themselves as the eastern ski company committed to making the most snow and having the best product possible for the longest season possible.  That was Killington's brand identity for decades and they really didn't have any challengers.  Now, after the past 5 years performance, I don't think anyone can question that Boyne is the market leader in those categories. Most snow made, best late season product, longest season.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm sorry, but you act like it's some sort of high tech thing to estimate how much water, air, power and fuel are needed to make a certain amount of snow. It's not compicated at all, and something ski areas have done for decades, probably since they started making snow. It certainly doesn't take a computer or spreadsheet. The math involved in designing a snowmaking system in the first place is far more complex.



Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years??  There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years?? There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it


 
Yes.  And I read industry info.  I don't consider anything particularly "game changing".


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I don't have a horse in this race but it seems to me that is unusual for any mountain to choose to make snow at the end of march. I'm sure those that are, have their reasons, but given that this time of year is not profitable in the best of times, it's hard to criticize those that aren't. also, energy costs are up significantly from a decade ago.
> 
> That being said, what kind of money are we talking about 10k, 100k???
> 
> isn't there also the issue of human resources? aren't the snow makers already off the payroll and onto other things/places?


 
Very, very roughly, about $50k for 2 days of snowmaking on upper and middle superstar with about 40 snowguns, for about 4 ft of snow (or large whales).


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## WWF-VT (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Have you had a detailed discussion with an actual mountain ops and/or snow surfaces manager at a major ski area about this exact topic in the last few years??  There's been some game changing info available if they choose to use it



What kind of question is that? Highway Star is better than 99% of the skiers at Killington, an authority on technical aspects of skis and carving and has a PhD in Profitable Ski Mountain Operations (regardless of operating costs).  How can you possibly question his knowledge of the physics and finance of snowmaking ?


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Hard to put a dollar figure on brand identity.  The investment is good if it means more season passes and day visitors the following season.  It's especially good if you have real estate to sell, which has a high ROI and your buyers are people looking for the longest season.
> 
> Boyne has clearly established themselves as the eastern ski company committed to making the most snow and having the best product possible for the longest season possible.  That was Killington's brand identity for decades and they really didn't have any challengers.  Now, after the past 5 years performance, I don't think anyone can question that Boyne is the market leader in those categories. Most snow made, best late season product, longest season.



I was thinking about this...SR/Boyne is not only considering the customers and pass holders, but the businesses and employees that rely on them.  If the season is cut short by a month, that would be a huge hit to the area businesses and economy.  I'm sure the seasonal employees love the chance to make more snow and get more pay days.  It's a win win all around, IMO...even if it is ultimately a break even for Boyne/SR.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Very, very roughly, about $50k for 2 days of snowmaking on upper and middle superstar with about 40 snowguns, for about 4 ft of snow (or large whales).



Also known as "I don't have a clue as to what the figure would be"

Short of the occasional K employee who chimes in on AZ with actual mountain ops ties, nobody here knows what that figure would approximately be.


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## Geoff (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Also known as "I don't have a clue as to what the figure would be"
> 
> Short of the occasional K employee who chimes in on AZ with actual mountain ops ties, nobody here knows what that figure would approximately be.



I did work out the electric cost of running the Superstar quad for a day a few years ago.   The commercial rate is published with CVPS.   The horsepower rating of the lift is known.   It was like the cost of 1 day ticket.   Inconsequential.  

I figure that Killington doesn't care.   They've already given up on the Boston market so they don't care that  Loon, Wildcat, Sunday River, Saddleback, and Sugarloaf are blowing snow.   They know their core metro-NYC customer base isn't going to drive to Jay Peak or Maine.   Their only competition at Sugarbush only has Steins open.   Why make snow?   There is plenty on Superstar to out-last Sugarbush.


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Also known as "I don't have a clue as to what the figure would be"
> 
> Short of the occasional K employee who chimes in on AZ with actual mountain ops ties, nobody here knows what that figure would approximately be.


 
Killington does not exist in an alternate universe (though their management might).  Costs for snowmaking are well known throughout the industry and are what my estimate is based on.  It is an accurate rough estimate given the temperature and their equipment.  It also assumes only 25% of their snowmaking capacity.


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## Method9455 (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Killington's business model now means that the Dew Tour gets priority over opening normal advanced terrain. It means that there is no buffer for bad weather, ie. they are not durable in bad seasons. And regardless of business model, they made a major tactical error in not making more snow (either mid season or NOW) on middle superstar. And upper skyelark. And everywhere else.



Yes. That is all 100% correct.



> *But what it really means, is that Killington has lost it's value proposition for the vacationer or day ticket skier. Okemo, Stratton, Sugarbush and Stowe all offer far better mid season skiing product and much better value, which is why Killington has been shedding skier visits to them for the past decade.  You can go to Stowe and spend $90 on a ticket and actually feel like you got your money's worth.*



Again, as part of the day/weekend skier crowd, I totally agree with this. I did 2 days at Killington this year, they were fairly average days. I had better days at Jay, Stowe, Sugarbush for free riding, and at Mount Snow for park. Killington doesn't draw me in much. 



> *Without a premium snowmaking effort, running a reasonable number of lifts, and an extended season, Killington has cutbacked itself into being a 2nd tier ski resort.......the ghetto of Vermont skiing.*
> 
> (for me sking on a pass for $15 a day, the value is OK).



Certainly it is now the mid-level between Jay/Stowe/Sugarbush and Mount Snow/Stratton/Okemo (ignoring unique places like MRG and Magic). 

* But this ship sailed 4 years ago! *. Everything you are complaining about has been patently obvious to everyone else for years now. You are completely preaching to the choir. Why does every single piece of evidence warrant a new thread? 

It's like when people complain about their favorite mountain replacing their favorite 2-chair with a high speed quad. Yes, we all know that 'your' area will now get tracked out faster. But no matter how much you bitch the mountain is not taking the lift down. The same goes here. No matter how much we scream and yell about it, Killington has a new business model. Unless that model causes them to make less money, they are sticking with it.

The costs are very clear for a super long season is clear - snowmaking, labor, lifts. The benefit comes from the tickets sold on those days and from the added sales throughout the year due to the longer season.

Clearly the first avenue doesn't work. It takes a lot of money to make the extra snow to survive deep into spring, and a lot of places close in early spring with snow still on the ground. That says to me you can barely even cover lifts & labor with spring skiing, much less the investment into artificial glaciers Killington used to make.

The second avenue, goodwill, isn't as hard to measure as people think. You'd be amazed the metrics companies keep on customers these days. You don't think they're doing analysis on this? What do you think they pay the MBAs for? 

You can watch all kinds of data - everything from hits on the conditions page/calls to the snow-phone to season pass use by day to pre-sales of season passes. Use regression analysis to figure out what the sensitivity of the customer base is to trail count, opening/closing date, events, etc. 

A lot of times when you do that really surprising results pop out. I've been in a room 500 times someone laid out a convincing argument on why our customers wanted something, and then we did it, looked at the data, and it failed miserably. I have a feeling thats what staying open late is for Killington. You can make a handwave argument that it is good for them to do, but put the hard numbers to it and it falls apart.

edit:

Just one example of that within this post. You say that they have no buffer in a bad year due to their snowmaking strategy. Are you sure thats a mistake? Almost everyone I know down here in flat-land decided ski season was over as soon as it hit 75 degrees - no matter what the mountains had open. I could barely rally people when conditions where good and there was no snow down here. So why should Killington blow money on making snow to survive warm spells if the customers aren't going to show up afterwards? Yea, they can't make it through a historically bad warm spell, but no one was going to show up anyway!


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

Great points.  But I particularly like this one:



Method9455 said:


> *But this ship sailed 4 years ago! *. Everything you are complaining about has been patently obvious to everyone else for years now. You are completely preaching to the choir. Why does every single piece of evidence warrant a new thread?


 
Actually, the ship *sank* 4 years ago when they dropped over 100,000 skier visits in one year.  They've been slowly recovering, and have changed their minds on many things due to massive public backlash.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=18298


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## Geoff (Mar 27, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> The second avenue, goodwill, isn't as hard to measure as people think. You'd be amazed the metrics companies keep on customers these days. You don't think they're doing analysis on this? What do you think they pay the MBAs for?



Killington is only a $50 million dollar business.   They had a communications director they fired last year who couldn't write a coherent paragraph.   They pay crap and treat their employees like crap.    They do not have a staff of mensa candidate MBA grads doing data analysis.   It's a miracle if your season pass scans reliably.   That's about as sophisticated as they get with computer systems.   To make matters worse, there has been so much turnover since POWDR showed up that they have lost most of their institutional knowledge.   Wonder why the lifts are always broken?  Chief mechanic?   Gone.   The list goes on and on.   These guys are bad managers managing badly.   The owner is the scion of a billionaire who had a string of ski areas handed to him so he could "do something with his life" beyond mountain climbing.   There is no industry visionary at POWDR.  There is a dilettante at the top and hired guns to run his ski areas who might or might not be competent.    I know for sure that if I took over a business and lost 30% market share, I'd expect to be fired.


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> edit:
> 
> Just one example of that within this post. You say that they have no buffer in a bad year due to their snowmaking strategy. Are you sure thats a mistake? Almost everyone I know down here in flat-land decided ski season was over as soon as it hit 75 degrees - no matter what the mountains had open. I could barely rally people when conditions where good and there was no snow down here. So why should Killington blow money on making snow to survive warm spells if the customers aren't going to show up afterwards? Yea, they can't make it through a historically bad warm spell, but no one was going to show up anyway!


 
So? :blink:

Evidently, some free raw hamburgers aside, Killington could care less about their customers or any diehard skiers in the region. They have shown they are fools, until circumstances rubs their faces in it and proves them wrong. (see - peak walkway, discount tickets, BMMC, etc)

There are many thousands of skiers within driving distance that will come for spring skiing if they are open. They have in the past.

Thing that they don't understand is that these "die hard" skiers and passholders are the ones that invite guests, spend money on the off weekends, and eventually buy property in the area. Every other area in the east seems to understand this - they are the bedrock of a resort's income stream.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 27, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> Yes. That is all 100% correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you hit the nail on the head.  
There arent enough people on this board to make extending the season even remotely profitable.  The vast majority of the market has moved on.  They re done with winter and happily so, no matter how much fun they had skiing for a week vacation in the winter.  Heck even most of the weekend warriors are done by the end of march.  
Kudos to those mtns that are making more snow.  There are many who appreciate and will enjoy it.  just not enough to make it worthwhile.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Very, very roughly, about $50k for 2 days of snowmaking on upper and middle superstar with about 40 snowguns, for about 4 ft of snow (or large whales).



Trying to do a bit of math here.  Superstar is what? 15 acres of terrain? So, 4 feet of snow, would be 60 acre/feet.  At $50K, that means it costs about $833 to make one foot of snow on an acre of terrain.  Obviously there are many variables; temperature, humidity, current fuel cost, gun quality etc.  

Now, say the current cost of diesel is $3.75.  That means it takes 222 gallons of diesel to make 1 acre foot of snow.

Is that how you "very, very, roughly" came up with the figure of $50K???

Just curious, as I haven't a clue regarding snowmaking costs.


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## snoseek (Mar 28, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.
> There arent enough people on this board to make extending the season even remotely profitable.  The vast majority of the market has moved on.  They re done with winter and happily so, no matter how much fun they had skiing for a week vacation in the winter.  Heck even most of the weekend warriors are done by the end of march.
> Kudos to those mtns that are making more snow.  There are many who appreciate and will enjoy it.  just not enough to make it worthwhile.



Yeah but I and many others skied there late back in the day and there was plenty of business especially on the weekends. A friday-monday schedule would bring em in i think


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.
> There arent enough people on this board to make extending the season even remotely profitable.



I don't think any ski area, whether they are making snow or not right now is extending the season with the hopes of turning a profit.  Current fiscal year substantial profits end Presidents day week.  Efforts made right now are about investment in future business.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=108653


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Trying to do a bit of math here. Superstar is what? 15 acres of terrain? So, 4 feet of snow, would be 60 acre/feet. At $50K, that means it costs about $833 to make one foot of snow on an acre of terrain. Obviously there are many variables; temperature, humidity, current fuel cost, gun quality etc.
> 
> Now, say the current cost of diesel is $3.75. That means it takes 222 gallons of diesel to make 1 acre foot of snow.
> 
> ...


 
About $1000 per acre ft is a good industry wide baseline target. Can be more or less depending on equipment, power/fuel costs, temps, labor costs, etc.

I'm talking about ~10 acres on upper and middle superstar.  Lower has enough base.


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

Here is the spec sheet for the IR HP1600WCU's that Killington rents. They also have permanent capcacity. The 1600's cost about $95/hour in fuel to run at full output, for 1600 CFM. With one of these they can supply air to anywhere from 3 to 20 snowguns depending on temps, flowrate and type of gun. Figure about 50 gpm water to each gun on average. 180,000 gallons per acre ft of snow. 

Thus, if you are using a good high-e gun in sub 20 degree temps, with 100 CFM air and 50 gpm water, you're going to burn about $350 of diesel fuel per acre ft of snow produced. (not accounting for pumping losses). As I said, $1000 per acre ft is an accurate baseline number, including labor, electric, maintaining equipment, etc.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ingersoll%20rand%20portable%20air%20compressors%201600&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doosanportablepower.com%2FSiteCollectionDocuments%2FArchived%2520Literature%2F675-1600%2520cfm%2F(2006)%25201300-1600%2520cfm%2520(form%252009-0004).pdf&ei=IQ5zT-DMCKOU2wXOhfHpDg&usg=AFQjCNE2mt0FpcPjIrFMcZVvnwiaJO-BFA


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## RENO (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Here is the spec sheet for the IR HP1600WCU's that Killington rents. They also have permanent capcacity. The 1600's cost about $95/hour in fuel to run at full output, for 1600 CFM. With one of these they can supply air to anywhere from 3 to 20 snowguns depending on temps, flowrate and type of gun. Figure about 50 gpm water to each gun on average. 180,000 gallons per acre ft of snow.
> 
> Thus, if you are using a good high-e gun in sub 20 degree temps, with 100 CFM air and 50 gpm water, you're going to burn about $350 of diesel fuel per acre ft of snow produced. (not accounting for pumping losses). As I said, $1000 per acre ft is an accurate baseline number, including labor, electric, maintaining equipment, etc.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ingersoll%20rand%20portable%20air%20compressors%201600&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doosanportablepower.com%2FSiteCollectionDocuments%2FArchived%2520Literature%2F675-1600%2520cfm%2F(2006)%25201300-1600%2520cfm%2520(form%252009-0004).pdf&ei=IQ5zT-DMCKOU2wXOhfHpDg&usg=AFQjCNE2mt0FpcPjIrFMcZVvnwiaJO-BFA



Do you have a job? How do you find the time to dig up and post all this shit? :lol:


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

RENO said:


> Do you have a job? How do you find the time to dig up and post all this shit? :lol:


 
10 minutes on break?


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## skiadikt (Mar 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think any ski area, whether they are making snow or not right now is extending the season with the hopes of turning a profit.  Current fiscal year substantial profits end Presidents day week.  Efforts made right now are about investment in future business.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=108653



hope steve doesn't mind me recycling another of his quotes, but here's one on kzone 2 springs ago:

"As to our bottom line:benevolence ratio, trust me, we do this to make money both short and long term. It takes much less to keep going than people are willing to admit-regardless of the area-size-and you can make money if you're willing to turn a lift, price/package your ticket and lodging correctly then market the sh*t out of it. No brain surgeons up this way believe me."

probably don't get rich doing it, but don't lose their shirts either and there's a reasonable expectation of making some money.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2012)

skiadikt said:


> hope steve doesn't mind me recycling another of his quotes, but here's one on kzone 2 springs ago:
> 
> "As to our bottom line:benevolence ratio, trust me, we do this to make money both short and long term. It takes much less to keep going than people are willing to admit-regardless of the area-size-and you can make money if you're willing to turn a lift, price/package your ticket and lodging correctly then market the sh*t out of it. No brain surgeons up this way believe me."
> 
> probably don't get rich doing it, but don't lose their shirts either and there's a reasonable expectation of making some money.



Sure, but the real prize money is landing well off families setting up roots at that mountain.  Long term big picture.  If Jay's late season efforts results in just 1 family setting up roots with them, that's can easily be $100K in revenue stream over the next 15 years for them.  That's just in season passes, golf memberships, dining and retail purchases; never mind the overall economic impact to the community with real estate rentals or purchases.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Sure, but the real prize money is landing well off families setting up roots at that mountain.  Long term big picture.  If Jay's late season efforts results in just 1 family setting up roots with them, that's can easily be *$100K i*n revenue stream over the next 15 years for them.  That's just in season passes, golf memberships, dining and retail purchases; never mind the overall economic impact to the community with real estate rentals or purchases.



THAT much?:-o  I think I'm giving up skiing and retiring early lol.  Just a quick calculation..my family of 5 probably outlays $10k year (passes, ski programs, beers, pizza, gear) and that doesn't include housing.  Yikes...never really thought of this before lol...some things are just too important or fun to even calculate.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> THAT much?:-o  I think I'm giving up skiing and retiring early lol.  Just a quick calculation..my family of 5 probably outlays $10k year (passes, ski programs, beers, pizza, gear) and that doesn't include housing.  Yikes...never really thought of this before lol...some things are just too important or fun to even calculate.



The $100K figure was total over the 15 years.  A very conservative number IMO, which you back up with your estimate of $10K per season spent at Sunday River.


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Sure, but the real prize money is landing well off families setting up roots at that mountain.  Long term big picture.  If Jay's late season efforts results in just 1 family setting up roots with them, that's can easily be $100K in revenue stream over the next 15 years for them.  That's just in season passes, golf memberships, dining and retail purchases; never mind the overall economic impact to the community with real estate rentals or purchases.





SkiFanE said:


> THAT much?:-o  I think I'm giving up skiing and retiring early lol.  Just a quick calculation..my family of 5 probably outlays $10k year (passes, ski programs, beers, pizza, gear) and that doesn't include housing.  Yikes...never really thought of this before lol...some things are just too important or fun to even calculate.



Agree with SkiFanE on all accounts 100%!

I try and NOT look at the quick books line item for annual ski related expenses that my wife keep tracks of, I don't want to be scared off of the fun that we have together as a family


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## skiadikt (Mar 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Sure, but the real prize money is landing well off families setting up roots at that mountain.  Long term big picture.  If Jay's late season efforts results in just 1 family setting up roots with them, that's can easily be $100K in revenue stream over the next 15 years for them.  That's just in season passes, golf memberships, dining and retail purchases; never mind the overall economic impact to the community with real estate rentals or purchases.



sorta my story. made the move from huntah to k in the late 80's. 3 friends followed a year or two later, a wife. 20+ season passes x 5 = $100k+. had the epiphany one may skiing cascade thinking any area that would open in oct and close memorial was where i wanted to be. felt it was run by ski freaks like myself. how things have changed.


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## Geoff (Mar 28, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Agree with SkiFanE on all accounts 100%!
> 
> I try and NOT look at the quick books line item for annual ski related expenses that my wife keep tracks of, I don't want to be scared off of the fun that we have together as a family



My skiing cost, counting housing, is about $15K.   If I had to do the drive every weekend, it would be at least $20K when you factor in depreciation on automobile from all those miles.


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## AdironRider (Mar 28, 2012)

You guys sure spend a lot of money to go skiing. 

My wife and I, even if we paid full retail for passes, spend less than 4k. Our actual totals are more like 1k. 

Even with kids, 15-20k is a lot of change.


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## Geoff (Mar 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You guys sure spend a lot of money to go skiing.
> 
> My wife and I, even if we paid full retail for passes, spend less than 4k. Our actual totals are more like 1k.
> 
> Even with kids, 15-20k is a lot of change.



If you own a vacation home, housing and automobile dwarf all your other costs.   You could do fly fishing instead of skiing and the costs wouldn't be all that different.


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You guys sure spend a lot of money to go skiing.
> 
> My wife and I, even if we paid full retail for passes, spend less than 4k. Our actual totals are more like 1k.
> 
> Even with kids, 15-20k is a lot of change.





Geoff said:


> If you own a vacation home, housing and automobile dwarf all your other costs.   You could do fly fishing instead of skiing and the costs wouldn't be all that different.



Geoff is right on.  Gotta factor a mortgage into the the equation in some cases, and for most there's 5 figures before you even buy a pass, get to the mountain, eat, get gear for in many cases, growing kids, etc, etc, etc.

I've got over 20k into my annual costs just from the mortgage and association fees.  Even if you just wanted to factor in a percentage of the mortgage based on ski season use, ski season use makes up about 75% of my families total ski home use, so the number doesn't go down that much.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You guys sure spend a lot of money to go skiing.
> 
> My wife and I, even if we paid full retail for passes, spend less than 4k. Our actual totals are more like 1k.
> 
> Even with kids, 15-20k is a lot of change.



Prior to having kids, it was very cheap.  We'd day trip most weekends, with occasional 2-3 day overnights.  No passes, could pick/choose where to go (and pre-internet days, it wasn't very easy), crash with friends, etc.  But once you have a family, if you really want to keep skiing you have to pay.  Didn't even think of gas and car wear and tear, but it's best not to nickel/dime and just do what you love.  My 3 kids are all now great skiers and I suspect it will be lifetime activities for all of them.  We are fortunate to be able to afford it, but then when something you are passionate about is very expensive, you work hard to afford it if you can (after college I had to pick up a PT job evenings to afford ski gear and tickets).  Maybe I'd be a mom who stays home and bakes cookies and volunteers for the PTO if I didn't have my expensive vice  

And I tell you...there is NOTHING better than being a skiing family.  Figured we'd sell our ski house if/when we needed the funds for retirement or college...but now we'll never let it go and may retire there...the kids will always come back to visit (when mom and dad buy the lift ticket at least lol).


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## Tooth (Mar 28, 2012)

Two kids at CVA at $50,000 per kid, home on mountain, six season tickets, tons of gear for everyone, etc., etc., etc.


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## Riverskier (Mar 28, 2012)

Wow, some wealthy folks on here. I am a daytripper that averages 30-40 days a season. Total cost: $630 (pass) + $224.00 (gas) + $384.00 (bar) = $1238.00 a season on average. Of course, that will go up when my 2 year old gets on skis. Glad I don't mind day tripping and live relatively close to the mountains, because I don't see $10,000+ seasons being feasible anytime in my near future!


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## Puck it (Mar 28, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Wow, some wealthy folks on here. I am a daytripper that averages 30-40 days a season. Total cost: $630 (pass) + $224.00 (gas) + $384.00 (bar) = $1238.00 a season on average. Of course, that will go up when my 2 year old gets on skis. Glad I don't mind day tripping and live relatively close to the mountains, because I don't see $10,000+ seasons being feasible anytime in my near future!



Don't you mean 1%'ers!  I had to!


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Wow, some wealthy folks on here. I am a daytripper that averages 30-40 days a season. Total cost: $630 (pass) + $224.00 (gas) + $384.00 (bar) = $1238.00 a season on average. Of course, that will go up when my 2 year old gets on skis. Glad I don't mind day tripping and live relatively close to the mountains, because I don't see $10,000+ seasons being feasible anytime in my near future!



RELATIVELY close to the mountain?!?!?  $224 in gas at $3.50/gallon will buy you 64 gallons.  If you make 35 trips, you're using less than 1 gallon per ski day.  The $10K people are talking about is in order to just get to where you already live.


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> RELATIVELY close to the mountain?!?!? $224 in gas at $3.50/gallon will buy you 64 gallons. If you make 35 trips, you're using less than 1 gallon per ski day. The $10K people are talking about is in order to just get to where you already live.


 
He drives a moped, so he gets particularly good gas milage.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 28, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Wow, some wealthy folks on here. I am a daytripper that averages 30-40 days a season. Total cost: $630 (pass) + $224.00 (gas) + $384.00 (bar) = $1238.00 a season on average. Of course, that will go up when my 2 year old gets on skis. Glad I don't mind day tripping and live relatively close to the mountains, because I don't see $10,000+ seasons being feasible anytime in my near future!



Live in a high COL area and make higher income and drive far away (requiring lodging) or live close to mt with lower COL and day trip. As long as you get your fix lol. And my 2 homes sq footage and heating bills are less than many people we know only home.  Also we wouldn't get our ski fix with any nh or smaller mts so those werent an option.


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## Riverskier (Mar 28, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> RELATIVELY close to the mountain?!?!?  $224 in gas at $3.50/gallon will buy you 64 gallons.  If you make 35 trips, you're using less than 1 gallon per ski day.  The $10K people are talking about is in order to just get to where you already live.



By your math I would be using closer to 2 gallons per ski day, but that is beside the point. I don't remember exactly how I calculated that figure, but it still holds true. I should get 32 ski days this year. I go up with a friend frequently and we alternate driving. He will end up driving 14 of those days, and we don't give each other gas money, as we have a reciprocal agreement. That leaves 18 days. 64 gallons/18 days= 3.55 gallons per day. I live about 55 miles from the mountain and get about 35 miles per gallon, so it works out. Even if I drove all 32 times it would only be $397.00, which is a small difference in the context of this discussion.

By the way, I think it is great that so many people have the means to buy ski homes, and spend 10's of thousands a year on skiing. A ski home is something I strive for, and hope to achieve later in life. I was just taken back by some of the numbers being thrown around, and it made realize how lucky I am to be able to ski for what I pay, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford it!


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2012)

^^ Yeah, I screwed that math up. Your's makes sense.  55 miles from the Mtn is not bad at all.  I'm more like 165. And my truck gets 17 compared to your 35MPG.  So my fuel costs are about 6x yours for the same ski days.

For me 165 miles (2.5 hrs) isn't bad for a day trip.   But it's far enough that that at least some overnights are in order.  Over time that progressed into seasonal rentals at $4-6K per year.  Seasonal rentals started to feel like a wasted opportunity, so that progressed into buying a place.  We are a few weeks away from finally owning a ski house.  It was a slippery slope over the course of 2 decades.  Hoping this turns into a worthwhile real estate investment not just a ski expense.  But even if that's all it is it'll be worth it.


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## fbrissette (Mar 28, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> By your math I would be using closer to 2 gallons per ski day, but that is beside the point. I don't remember exactly how I calculated that figure, but it still holds true. I should get 32 ski days this year. I go up with a friend frequently and we alternate driving. He will end up driving 14 of those days, and we don't give each other gas money, as we have a reciprocal agreement. That leaves 18 days. 64 gallons/18 days= 3.55 gallons per day. I live about 55 miles from the mountain and get about 35 miles per gallon, so it works out. Even if I drove all 32 times it would only be $397.00, which is a small difference in the context of this discussion.
> 
> By the way, I think it is great that so many people have the means to buy ski homes, and spend 10's of thousands a year on skiing. A ski home is something I strive for, and hope to achieve later in life. I was just taken back by some of the numbers being thrown around, and it made realize how lucky I am to be able to ski for what I pay, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford it!


You also have to add the cost of equipment and clothing that comes with skiing.  Goes quite fast with kids who needs a full change almost every year.   As a family, we ski 40-50 days per year, and we very likely spend  a lot more on gear than on season's passes.  

Francois (in Jay Peak)


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

I find it amazing that Killington is so willing to alienate season pass holders.  Hundreds (thousands?) of them are potential future real estate and ski school (familly) customers.


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## skiahman (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I find it amazing that Killington is so willing to alienate season pass holders.  Hundreds (thousands?) of them are potential future real estate and ski school (familly) customers.



Blah blah blah


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I find it amazing that Killington is so willing to alienate season pass holders. Hundreds (thousands?) of them are potential future real estate and ski school (familly) customers.


 
And yet you will be back!  :dunce:

Now that I think of it, I can't recall seeing a single Killington TR from you here.....


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## steamboat1 (Mar 28, 2012)

I live in NYC & travel to K & other VT. locations regularly. If I go for 3 or 4 days & drive around to different areas maybe I'll burn 25 gallons (often less). At $4 a gallon that's $100. Not bad really for a few days. Now if I was day tripping it would be a different story but I probably wouldn't travel as far. Even $50 for gas on a day trip is a considerable amount of money.

Who needs a ski home when you have a beautiful house that sleeps 50 to stay in during the week & usually there's either no one else or only a few people there. At $24 a night it's a no brainer.


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## AdironRider (Mar 28, 2012)

Since this argument has shifted gears, I think one should point out that housing and fuel (consensus - biggest expenditures for skiing) is not lining the coffers of a ski area. 

That means a ski area is probably looking at the 1-4k totals Im mentioning opposed to the 15-20k numbers people are throwing out there.


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Since this argument has shifted gears, I think one should point out that housing and fuel (consensus - biggest expenditures for skiing) is not lining the coffers of a ski area.
> 
> That means a ski area is probably looking at the 1-4k totals Im mentioning opposed to the 15-20k numbers people are throwing out there.



If only my families total to Mount Snow was in the 1-4k range!

2 adult Nor'easter passes - about $1025 each with tax
2 junior Nor'easter passes - about $850 each with tax
ski school season pass for 1 kid - about $1650 with tax
Competition Program, Plus Mount Snow Ski Club membership - about $750 with tax

And that doesn't even get into my base lodge bar tab for a season  :beer:


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## AdironRider (Mar 28, 2012)

Im not saying some families wont spend more, but you gotta admit, the average family is not spending 1700 a year in ski school or 800 to compete on the race team. 

Even with your numbers (6.5k or so) thats a long ways away from the 15-20k numbers being thrown around. 

I have a tough time with food costs cause everybody's got to eat. Thats why the feds only let you write off 50%. 

Bar tabs are bar tabs, dont need to be near a ski hill to rack up numbers there.


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## St. Bear (Mar 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Im not saying some families wont spend more, but you gotta admit, the average family is not spending 1700 a year in ski school or 800 to compete on the race team.
> 
> Even with your numbers (6.5k or so) thats a long ways away from the 15-20k numbers being thrown around.
> 
> ...



A $1,000/month mortgage (not big at all) would be $12,000 each year just by itself.


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## AdironRider (Mar 28, 2012)

See the top of this page. 

Its a flawed argument to imply that you spend 15-20k a year on skiing and how the ski area needs to respect that, when in reality the ski area sees maybe 1/3 of that at best. 

Not saying the ski areas shouldnt respect someone forking over thousands just for a couple passes, they should, but a ski area isnt counting on 100k coming from one family over the course of a decade. If so they'd have margins way over the 5-11% from the books Ive seen.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 29, 2012)

Whatever the number, whether it's 2K for a family of four buying blackout passes and brown bagging it or someone that goes all in on platinum passes, ski school, race programs, apres, golf memberships etc, my point is that landing or losing a skiing family to another mountain is no small change over the course of that families skiing lifetime as well as future generations of that family.

In addition to losing that families income, another thing to consider is that people with ski homes are like people with boats, they seem to have a lot of friends.  :lol:   Growing up skiing Okemo with my family every weekend of the season, I'd bet a least 10 weekends out of the season our house was packed with family or friends paying full rack rates on lift tickets. I bet whatever my dad spent for our family at Okemo was equal or surpassed by the additional revenue Okemo realized by family/friends visiting us for the weekend.  Once my folks "retired" from skiing, half of our extended family who ski reverted to day trippers and skiing much less and the other half pretty much gave up the sport because they were never all that into it, but enjoyed taking a trip to Vermont to see family and skied because that's what we did.

Further to my point of the importance for a resort to lure lifetime family business is that even though my folks sold our ski house 10 years ago when they retired to Florida, Okemo is still reaping the rewards of impressing them in 1986.  They return every summer and rent a house for four months in Ludlow and buy a golf membership.  That's $4100 a summer in membership fees for the two of them and I know they spend at least $2K on top of that at the clubhouse and up at Jackson Gore every Friday night for the summer music series.  That's 6K revenue during the OFF season. Also, just like winter, friends and family come all the time and spend rack rate at the golf course on greens fees.  My folks have been returning every year to Okemo because of the social network and sense of "home" developed over the past 25 years.


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## Highway Star (Mar 29, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Whatever the number, whether it's 2K for a family of four buying blackout passes and brown bagging it or someone that goes all in on platinum passes, ski school, race programs, apres, golf memberships etc, my point is that landing or losing a skiing family to another mountain is no small change over the course of that families skiing lifetime as well as future generations of that family.
> 
> In addition to losing that families income, another thing to consider is that people with ski homes are like people with boats, they seem to have a lot of friends. :lol: Growing up skiing Okemo with my family every weekend of the season, I'd bet a least 10 weekends out of the season our house was packed with family or friends paying full rack rates on lift tickets. I bet whatever my dad spent for our family at Okemo was equal or surpassed by the additional revenue Okemo realized by family/friends visiting us for the weekend. Once my folks "retired" from skiing, half of our extended family who ski reverted to day trippers and skiing much less and the other half pretty much gave up the sport because they were never all that into it, but enjoyed taking a trip to Vermont to see family and skied because that's what we did.
> 
> Further to my point of the importance for a resort to lure lifetime family business is that even though my folks sold our ski house 10 years ago when they retired to Florida, Okemo is still reaping the rewards of impressing them in 1986. They return every summer and rent a house for four months in Ludlow and buy a golf membership. That's $4100 a summer in membership fees for the two of them and I know they spend at least $2K on top of that at the clubhouse and up at Jackson Gore every Friday night for the summer music series. That's 6K revenue during the OFF season. Also, just like winter, friends and family come all the time and spend rack rate at the golf course on greens fees. My folks have been returning every year to Okemo because of the social network and sense of "home" developed over the past 25 years.


 
The same is true on a smaller scale for those who rent shares in a ski house.


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## fbrissette (Mar 29, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Whatever the number, whether it's 2K for a family of four buying blackout passes and brown bagging it or someone that goes all in on platinum passes, ski school, race programs, apres, golf memberships etc, my point is that landing or losing a skiing family to another mountain is no small change over the course of that families skiing lifetime as well as future generations of that family.
> 
> In addition to losing that families income, another thing to consider is that people with ski homes are like people with boats, they seem to have a lot of friends.  :lol:   Growing up skiing Okemo with my family every weekend of the season, I'd bet a least 10 weekends out of the season our house was packed with family or friends paying full rack rates on lift tickets. I bet whatever my dad spent for our family at Okemo was equal or surpassed by the additional revenue Okemo realized by family/friends visiting us for the weekend.  Once my folks "retired" from skiing, half of our extended family who ski reverted to day trippers and skiing much less and the other half pretty much gave up the sport because they were never all that into it, but enjoyed taking a trip to Vermont to see family and skied because that's what we did.
> 
> Further to my point of the importance for a resort to lure lifetime family business is that even though my folks sold our ski house 10 years ago when they retired to Florida, Okemo is still reaping the rewards of impressing them in 1986.  They return every summer and rent a house for four months in Ludlow and buy a golf membership.  That's $4100 a summer in membership fees for the two of them and I know they spend at least $2K on top of that at the clubhouse and up at Jackson Gore every Friday night for the summer music series.  That's 6K revenue during the OFF season. Also, just like winter, friends and family come all the time and spend rack rate at the golf course on greens fees.  My folks have been returning every year to Okemo because of the social network and sense of "home" developed over the past 25 years.


We are home owners at Jay.  Her's the rundown of the business we brought in this season:

family ski pass: 1500$  (cheap at Jay)
ski shop; 1500$  (two new pairs of skis, not every year though)
tune ups: 100$
restaurants: 300$  (a few evening outings)
pumphouse: 300$
jay peak store: 300$  (milk, OJ, beer etc...)

As mentioned above here is the biggie - friends that come to visit that would otherwise NOT come.  None of our visitors in the past 2 years had ever been to Jay Peak)

lift tickets: 3000$  (we have homeowner pricing, so we can keep track of what we buy for visitors)
other condo rentals: 4000$
pumphouse: 600$
restaurants: 600$

We generate over 12000$ of direct skiing business (pumphouse money would not be there without the skiing) to Jay Peak.  And I am not counting condo fees (that partly pays for Jay Peak employees), insurance (local broker) and other expenses linked to being a home owner, and not counting expenses for the rest of the year (hiking, golfing etc..).  So yep, home owners are a big part of a ski hill business.  Jay certaintly understands that, and as a matter of fact, Bill Stenger is a board member of the VIllage condo association.

Even though we are relatively well off, pretty much all of our free money goes into this condo.  It's a family choice we made, so no Disney vacations or South trips for us.

Francois


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## fbrissette (Mar 29, 2012)

Duplicate posting


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## SkiFanE (Mar 29, 2012)

The ski house we bought was actually a local's house.  So in a way...we added a new family to the area that didn't exist before.  And the last 2 weekends we had other families stay with us...with kids..day passes, pizza, rentals, SR t-shirts...etc.  One family moved back to NE and is interested in getting back into skiing and figuring out how, they really enjoyed the whole ski area vibe and lifestyle and with real young kids they are seriously thinking about it.  They loved how they were treated at SR (and their 3yo took to magic carpet and skiing like a fish to water).  Ski families breed more ski families...cannot discount that.  If they didn't get a family friendly vibe at SR they wouldn't consider it a place to settle (military family that can retire anywhere at anytime).


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## Highway Star (Mar 29, 2012)

Wow, it's amazing to hear these stories.


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## drjeff (Mar 29, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Wow, it's amazing to hear these stories.



FYI HS, if there are someday "little HS's" cranking some big GS turns down the slopes, you'll be amazed/scared at how much extra the little one's add to your skiing (both interms of outright cost and also enjoyment - the later often offsets the prior).

Also, what one looks for in a resort tends to change when the kid factor gets added to the equation.  Suddenly expert terrain and copius nightlife options aren't as high up on the list as they used to be, and things like kids programs/ski school and cruising terrrain available are a BIG factor.  Just saying......


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## Highway Star (Mar 30, 2012)

If I was not so disappointed with how the mountain was run, I would spend much more with them and invite guests.


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## Highway Star (Mar 30, 2012)

Can't wait to slay the ice gnar at Killington this weekend, it's going to be awesome!!!!


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## Geoff (Mar 30, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Wow, some wealthy folks on here. I am a daytripper that averages 30-40 days a season. Total cost: $630 (pass) + $224.00 (gas) + $384.00 (bar) = $1238.00 a season on average. Of course, that will go up when my 2 year old gets on skis. Glad I don't mind day tripping and live relatively close to the mountains, because I don't see $10,000+ seasons being feasible anytime in my near future!



No.   You really need to count the fully burdened cost of your car.   The IRS says that's $0.55/mile.   If you drive a newer mid-level car, that's spot on.   I'm talking 2010 Toyota Camry, not anything fancy.  For most skiers, automobile expense dwarfs all other costs.


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## jlboyell (Mar 30, 2012)

these numbers solidify one thing... NO KIDS FOR ME


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