# The 2011-2012 Ski Area Improvement Thread



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2011)

So we've had numerous threads, but what improvements are on the boards at your local resort?  

From what I have heard, I know of these projects:


*Burke Mountain*:  I am hearing from numerous reliable sources that Burke is going all the way and installing a HSQ to the summit from MidBurke.  Word has it that it is a second-hand lift from a resort that recently shuttered its doors being installed by Doppelmayr/CTEC.
*Mount Snow*:  They are installing the Northeast's newest six pack with bubbles.  IIRC Poma is doing this one.  Correct me if I am wrong....
*Jay Peak*:  Other than completing their massive base area work, I recall confirmation that Bonaventure is going to be replaced and maybe Jet.
*Stowe*:  Yes, Stowe.  Forerunner is going to be retrofitted after a 27 year stint.  Not bad for a first generation Doppelmayr cadence chain high speed quad that broke down on its first day and broke down often.
*Sugarloaf*:  Brackett Basin expanded, new fixed grip quad with conveyor belt on Spillway.  They are also having Doppelmayr/CTEC modernize SuperQuad.
What else is there?  Wildcat?  Saddleback?  Sunday River?


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## Puck it (Apr 13, 2011)

Cannon will be announcing some.


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## Angus (Apr 13, 2011)

It will be interesting to see what Wildcat does - I'm assuming big upgrade in snow-making. How much water does Wildcat have to draw from? I hope they don't widen trails but probably not possible without significant filings due to location.


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## drjeff (Apr 13, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> [*]*Mount Snow*:  They are installing the Northeast's newest six pack with bubbles.  IIRC Poma is doing this one.  Correct me if I am wrong....?



Yup, Leitner-Poma is building/installing the bubble 6 pack, as well as building new chairs, with footrests and working on the base terminal of the Grand Summit Express


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2011)

Hunter Mountain replacing 2 old double chairs with the old quad..  potential new trail design and woods thinning for the glades set..


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## RootDKJ (Apr 14, 2011)

I took my last lift ride at Blue with Jim Daly and his crew.  On the way up, I'm pretty sure he mentioned upgraded (automated) snowmaking on Lazy Mile and thinning out more glades areas were targets they were looking at, but they didn't sit down to do a budget yet.  I was pretty drunk at the time, he mentioned more, but it's all pretty hazy now.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Angus said:


> It will be interesting to see what Wildcat does - I'm assuming big upgrade in snow-making. How much water does Wildcat have to draw from? I hope they don't widen trails but probably not possible without significant filings due to location.


 

They draw from the pond in front on the Tomcat chair load.  It is not big but gets fed continously though.  They will not widen any trials.  They have have to file to clear blown down.


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## gmcunni (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Cannon will be announcing some.



Is Cannon a mob scene on mid-winter weekends?  looked at a map and it seems like it is right off 93 so i'd suspect a lot of day traffic from MA?


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> Is Cannon a mob scene on mid-winter weekends?  looked at a map and it seems like it is right off 93 so i'd suspect a lot of day traffic from MA?



Most days no.  It can be crowded on holiday weeks but not lime Loon.


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## gmcunni (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Most days no.  It can be crowded on holiday weeks but not lime Loon.



never been to loon.  a buddy has access to a house in S NH. we hit Ragged/Sunapee (no more due to crowds)/Pats and Crotched when we go but i'm thinking a day trip further north next year might be fun


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> never been to loon.  a buddy has access to a house in S NH. we hit Ragged/Sunapee (no more due to crowds)/Pats and Crotched when we go but i'm thinking a day trip further north next year might be fun




If you do next year, let me know.  I will gladly show you around. Btw - did you get the t- nuts?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2011)

> Burke Mountain: I am hearing from numerous reliable sources that Burke is going all the way and installing a HSQ to the summit from MidBurke. Word has it that it is a second-hand lift from a resort that recently shuttered its doors being installed by Doppelmayr/CTEC.



There has been a lot of buzz about this "new lift" around the mtn the last couple weeks. 


Burke is also installing a 175' tall wind turbine near the summit that will hopefully generate up to 15% of the mtn's power. It will apparently be similar to the one at Bolton.


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## mondeo (Apr 14, 2011)

New mulch and paint will be added at Killington. Copper is getting a 6 pack.


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## Talisman (Apr 14, 2011)

mondeo said:


> New mulch and paint will be added at Killington. Copper is getting a 6 pack.



What is getting painted this Summer at Killington?  I hope it will be the chairs on the Snowdon triple.  Mmmulch!


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## gmcunni (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> did you get the t- nuts?


no, not yet. i'd bet today though.


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## EPB (Apr 14, 2011)

Its been a long time since I heard any mention of the new Bonaventure lift at Jay Peak.  TB mentioned it to start the discussion, but does anybody familiar with the situation have any more info?  

As a side note, I've found a solution to the New York state law that prohibits trail mileage from exceeding a seemingly arbitrary distance: clear cut.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

from_the_NEK said:


> There has been a lot of buzz about this "new lift" around the mtn the last couple weeks.


 
Still not seeing anything in the Act 250 database...but it must be in if they are going to do anything this summer.  



> Burke is also installing a 175' tall wind turbine near the summit that will hopefully generate up to 15% of the mtn's power. It will apparently be similar to the one at Bolton.


 
Now THAT sounds hideous and ironic, considering that Ginn worked so hard to shut down the East Mountain project...going so far as to buy the rights.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Now THAT sounds hideous and ironic, considering that Ginn worked so hard to shut down the East Mountain project...going so far as to buy the rights.



But if your standing underneath it, it doesn't spoil the view. 

I think it is going somewhere over by the top of the powerline.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> If you do next year, let me know.  I will gladly show you around. Btw - did you get the t- nuts?


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Cannon will be announcing some.



You know something?I have not heard any buzz at all.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


>



Like your touch!


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

SIKSKIER said:


> You know something?I have not heard any buzz at all.



I have been hearing things through the grapevine on somethings.

Cannonball motor replacement to get back to full speed without blowing fuses. 
Water pumping improvements - I am not sure of what the problem was but they could not run a lot of guns simultaneously this year.  Profile guns were running like an old man urinating at times and with the same color.
Possible snowmaking at Mitt and the widening of Baron's for racing.  This is the one that I am not confident in.


Fischer Cat glade improvements!


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## Black Phantom (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> I have been hearing things through the grapevine on somethings.
> 
> Cannonball motor replacement to get back to full speed without blowing fuses.
> Water pumping improvements - I am not sure of what the problem was but they could not run a lot of guns simultaneously this year.  Profile guns were running like an old man urinating at times and with the same color.
> ...



They never should have yanked out the t-bar. Perhaps a Poma instead.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

Wait...Cannonball doesn't run full speed? That sucks. It also sucks that there is no more "Profile" trail, but then again what do you expect from a place that named one of its glades, "Global Warming Glade?" :blink:

And weren't there two T-bars on the old Profile as well?


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## mondeo (Apr 14, 2011)

Check that mulch and paint. Peak lodge being torn down & prep work, heated gondi maze. New lodge expected to be completed Christmas 2012.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Check that mulch and paint. Peak lodge being torn down & prep work, heated gondi maze. New lodge expected to be completed Christmas 2012.


 
Wow, didn't know that.  

http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/killington-resort-announces


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## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Wait...Cannonball doesn't run full speed? That sucks. It also sucks that there is no more "Profile" trail, but then again what do you expect from a place that named one of its glades, "Global Warming Glade?" :blink:
> 
> And weren't there two T-bars on the old Profile as well?



Profile is still there.  They just changed the name to Cannonball

The T bars had their own lift lines, not part of a trail.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Profile is still there. They just changed the name to Cannonball


 
Right, that was what I was saying...the name has changed.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, that was what I was saying...the name has changed.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Profile is still there.  They just changed the name to Cannonball
> 
> The T bars had their own lift lines, not part of a trail.



I thought they were within the footprint of the current trail. If I am not mistaken, but I am going by old pics.


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## ceo (Apr 14, 2011)

Profile/Cannonball was originally the liftline for the Two Upper T-bars, yes. I apparently didn't save the email, but Cannon Guest Services tells me they changed the name to establish "Cannonball" as a stronger part of Cannon's brand identity (or something like that), to go along with the Cannonball Quad and the Cannonball Pub. (This makes me wonder if the loud (and generally excellent) music at the bottom of Cannonball is intentional mountain policy, as opposed to being on the lifties' initiative as I've been assuming.)

A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Wait...Cannonball doesn't run full speed? That sucks. It also sucks that there is no more "Profile" trail, but then again what do you expect from a place that named one of its glades, "Global Warming Glade?" :blink:
> 
> And weren't there two T-bars on the old Profile as well?



It has been running like 3/4 or more in speed all year.

I tend to think the Global warming was tongue in cheek.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> I thought they were within the footprint of the current trail. If I am not mistaken, but I am going by old pics.



I don't remember people skiing down next to me when I rode those T Bars as a kid.  It wasn't like the current set up where the Cannonball Express runs right along the side of the trail.  There were trees on both sides of the T Bar track if I recall correctly.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

ceo said:


> Profile/Cannonball was originally the liftline for the Two Upper T-bars, yes. I apparently didn't save the email, but Cannon Guest Services tells me they changed the name to establish "Cannonball" as a stronger part of Cannon's brand identity (or something like that), to go along with the Cannonball Quad and the Cannonball Pub. (This makes me wonder if the loud (and generally excellent) music at the bottom of Cannonball is intentional mountain policy, as opposed to being on the lifties' initiative as I've been assuming.)
> 
> A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.



Close off Vista and PFE and PF which would take Av out too.  Not happening.   Baron's is what I heard now and adding Snowmaking.  I think they all suck.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't remember people skiing down next to me when I rode those T Bars as a kid.  It wasn't like the current set up where the Cannonball Express runs right along the side of the trail.  There were trees on both sides of the T Bar track if I recall correctly.



Sorry, I meant no trail but they went up in a similar line.  The plans called for a winding trail like Upper Cannon and Upper Ravine to go in when the chair went in. But the state knew better then ski area designers and as the story in the DOT bulldozers and made Profile.


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## Cannonball (Apr 14, 2011)

ceo said:


> Profile/Cannonball was originally the liftline for the Two Upper T-bars, yes. I apparently didn't save the email, but Cannon Guest Services tells me they changed the name to establish "Cannonball" as a stronger part of Cannon's brand identity (or something like that), to go along with the Cannonball Quad and the Cannonball Pub.



I'm sure this is the case.  BUT, it's ill-conceived from the outset.  The name "Profile" already existed throughout the Mtn (the trail, the lake, etc) and more importantly it referred to the 'profile' of the Old Man in the Mountain.....the FREAK'N State symbol!!  So why not call the new (then) lift "Profile lift" and "Profile Pub" etc, etc, etc.  And make that the brand identity.  An identity that would have appeal throughout New England.  Ugh.

God damn it after that rant I gotta go get a new screen name!  Hmmmm "Profile" would make for a catchy profile.


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## ceo (Apr 14, 2011)

It might be Avalanche instead of Paulie's; I don't remember. That actually makes more sense; it doesn't cut off any terrain other than Banshee, and there's a bigger finish area at the bottom. Closures would only happen on race days, of course.

I strongly doubt that Baron's has the necessary vertical, even if they started from the top of the knob, and I don't think Taft is anywhere near wide enough, plus there's the small matter of it not being lift-served.


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## Cannonball (Apr 14, 2011)

ceo said:


> It might be Avalanche instead of Paulie's; I don't remember. That actually makes more sense; it doesn't cut off any terrain other than Banshee, and there's a bigger finish area at the bottom. Closures would only happen on race days, of course.
> 
> I strongly doubt that Baron's has the necessary vertical, even if they started from the top of the knob, and I don't think Taft is anywhere near wide enough, plus there's the small matter of it not being lift-served.



I'd hate to see it for selfish reasons, but it makes a lot of sense.  Except for Bypass you would have sustained pitch for an amazing 2K of vertical.  All served by the tram with significant lodges at the start and finish.  Excellent for racers and spectators.  And it would improve their current underutilization of the tram.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> I'm sure this is the case.  BUT, it's ill-conceived from the outset.  The name "Profile" already existed throughout the Mtn (the trail, the lake, etc) and more importantly it referred to the 'profile' of the Old Man in the Mountain.....the FREAK'N State symbol!!  So why not call the new (then) lift "Profile lift" and "Profile Pub" etc, etc, etc.  And make that the brand identity.  An identity that would have appeal throughout New England.  Ugh.
> 
> God damn it after that rant I gotta go get a new screen name!  Hmmmm "Profile" would make for a catchy profile.



FischerCatSkier sounds better to me.  What do I know?


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## Cannonball (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> FischerCatSkier sounds better to me.  What do I know?



That's an alias I only use for apres hook-ups when the wife's looking the other way.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> I'd hate to see it for selfish reasons, but it makes a lot of sense.  Except for Bypass you would have sustained pitch for an amazing 2K of vertical.  All served by the tram with significant lodges at the start and finish.  Excellent for racers and spectators.  And it would improve their current underutilization of the tram.



I will have to see I can find any maps of the old downhill course that the FIS sanctioned in the early 70's.  I think it was using Tram Way though.   It is fun trying to catch the next car taking these runs.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> That's an alias I only use for apres hook-ups when the wife's looking the other way.



For the cougars? I won't be up tomorrow.  I will be there on Saturday at around 10:30.  Should I bring a 12 pack?


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## Cannonball (Apr 14, 2011)

from_the_NEK said:


> There has been a lot of buzz about this "new lift" around the mtn the last couple weeks.
> 
> 
> Burke is also installing a 175' tall wind turbine near the summit that will hopefully generate up to 15% of the mtn's power. It will apparently be similar to the one at Bolton.



Just catching up on earlier parts of this thread.  So how do the Burke locals feel about this?  That old lift sure is painfully slow.  On the other hand it results in some excellent powder preservation for a fairly small hill.  Bittersweet?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> Just catching up on earlier parts of this thread. So how do the Burke locals feel about this? That old lift sure is painfully slow. On the other hand it results in some excellent powder preservation for a fairly small hill. Bittersweet?


 
Bittersweet is a good word.  The new lift will make the Burke skiing experience a lot better because folks will see what it has to offer rather than groan about the lift ride.  And I think it will have foot rests...which I know people also complain about. 

As to the wind turbine, hate to be the NIMBY crowd, but it will look pretty dumb up there.  But heck, if it saves money, go for it I guess.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> For the cougars? I won't be up tomorrow. I will be there on Saturday at around 10:30. Should I bring a 12 pack?


 
Do cougars drink wine coolers?


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## Black Phantom (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Do cougars drink wine coolers?



Cougars drink whiskey!  Go Bruins:beer:


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## Cannonball (Apr 14, 2011)

Puck it said:


> For the cougars? I won't be up tomorrow.  I will be there on Saturday at around 10:30.  Should I bring a 12 pack?



Probably just me & L.  Although who knows who'll come out of the woodwork for the last weekend.



thetrailboss said:


> Do cougars drink wine coolers?



Cannon cougars drink Boilermakers consisting of a Schlitz tall boy and a Wild Turkey double.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> Probably just me & L.  Although who knows who'll come out of the woodwork for the last weekend.


Sounds like a 12er just in case.



Cannonball said:


> Cannon cougars drink Boilermakers consisting of a Schlitz tall boy and a Wild Turkey double.


Do they have their teeth still?


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## cannonist (Apr 14, 2011)

Enough about Cannon I'm excited to see what happens at Waterville and I'm a little dismayed I haven't heard anything yet.


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## 4aprice (Apr 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, didn't know that.
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/killington-resort-announces



I will not miss that building at all. Not sure why they need business meeting rooms at the summit.  This is where my environmental senses kick in as I hope they do it well and tastefully.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## threecy (Apr 14, 2011)

cannonist said:


> Enough about Cannon I'm excited to see what happens at Waterville and I'm a little dismayed I haven't heard anything yet.



http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/expansions2011.php


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## cannonist (Apr 14, 2011)

threecy said:


> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/expansions2011.php



Yes they are doing that, but I'm talking somthing more substansial. It might just be me, but is extending that T bar that much of a big deal?


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## threecy (Apr 14, 2011)

cannonist said:


> Yes they are doing that, but I'm talking somthing more substansial. It might just be me, but is extending that T bar that much of a big deal?



Last I knew, they haven't applied with the WMNF to do any other projects, so I suspect other work may be limited to facility and snowmaking improvements.


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## Puck it (Apr 14, 2011)

cannonist said:


> Yes they are doing that, but I'm talking somthing more substansial. It might just be me, but is extending that T bar that much of a big deal?



For racing use?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2011)

threecy said:


> Last I knew, they haven't applied with the WMNF to do any other projects, so I suspect other work may be limited to facility and snowmaking improvements.



Hasn't improving their snowmaking ponds long been at the top of their priority list, but the old owners never made the investment?

Do you know what the Sununu's paid for WV?  just curious


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## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 14, 2011)

4aprice said:


> I will not miss that building at all. Not sure why they need business meeting rooms at the summit.  This is where my environmental senses kick in as I hope they do it well and tastefully.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Big money in weddings and other small convention type things.


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## mondeo (Apr 14, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Big money in weddings and other small convention type things.


Yep, hopefully they'll bring in revenue quickly with it to turn around and put into a new six pack.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Yep, hopefully they'll bring in revenue quickly with it to turn around and put into a new six pack.



don't hold your breath

If that building brings in more than $500K profit in wedding, meeting and seasonal F&B operations each year,  I'd be shocked.  That's many, many years to fund a $5M lift when you factor in recovering the initial capital investment to build it.  

I'd be rooting for a 50 unit slopeside condo development to fund your lift more than the Peak Lodge.


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## JPTracker (Apr 16, 2011)

eastern powder baby said:


> Its been a long time since I heard any mention of the new Bonaventure lift at Jay Peak.  TB mentioned it to start the discussion, but does anybody familiar with the situation have any more info?



From a newsletter I just received from Jay:





> This summer we will relocate the poles and electric lines on the Power Line trail to make way for a six-passenger chairlift. This chair will replace the Bonaventure and unload guests at the top of St. George's Prayer. The new lift will be open to visitors for the 2012+13 winter season.


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## AdironRider (Apr 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> don't hold your breath
> 
> If that building brings in more than $500K profit in wedding, meeting and seasonal F&B operations each year,  I'd be shocked.  That's many, many years to fund a $5M lift when you factor in recovering the initial capital investment to build it.
> 
> I'd be rooting for a 50 unit slopeside condo development to fund your lift more than the Peak Lodge.



Id hold my breath on that one. I haven't worked in Killington F&B, but have seen the financials for other mountains summit restaurants. 1.5 mil in profit for a good summer season is not unheard of. 

I will say, that building has been such a shithole for so long that it might take a few years before that stigma is gone.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Id hold my breath on that one. I haven't worked in Killington F&B, but have seen the financials for other mountains summit restaurants. 1.5 mil in profit for a good summer season is not unheard of.
> 
> I will say, that building has been such a shithole for so long that it might take a few years before that stigma is gone.



1.5M in total revenue would be a good summer season for that space.  Definitely not profit. Eastern ski areas don't do come close to the F&B revenue figures of western resorts.  Snowshoe is one of the top 10 busiest eastern ski resorts.  They did 7.5M in total F&B revenue in 2002-2003.  That's a 500K skier visit a year resort with extensive summer operations.


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## Nick (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm excited for the K lodge, although I think it had an end date of Dec 2012, which is a ways away. 

Also really psyched for the new lifts @ Sugarloaf.


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## Geoff (Apr 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> don't hold your breath
> 
> If that building brings in more than $500K profit in wedding, meeting and seasonal F&B operations each year,  I'd be shocked.  That's many, many years to fund a $5M lift when you factor in recovering the initial capital investment to build it.
> 
> I'd be rooting for a 50 unit slopeside condo development to fund your lift more than the Peak Lodge.



First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington.   All of the Killington day lodges are disasters.   The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed.   The Killington problem isn't lack of wedding business in July though it's nice to have an attraction that brings a couple of hundred people into town every weekend who ordinarily would be elsewhere.   The Killington problem is lack of people during peak ski season.    ...particulary people who are dialing the Killington 800 number or booking lodging through the Killington web site.    Even at Christmas, MLK, and Presidents week, the resort no longer gets to 100% occupancy.

Second, POWDR is completely decoupled from the profits from slopeside condo developments.   The Texas H.L. Hunt oil money people from Eiger Fund / E2M / SP Land own the land.   At best, POWDR is a junior partner and is unlikely to ever see a dime of real estate development profit.   It's like investing in a blockbuster movie where there is a 100 million production budget, distribution fees, ....   By the time all the Chinese bookkeeping is done, the minority investor doesn't make much of anything.

I think a new Peak Lodge is a great second step.   The Skye Peak Express was a good first step.

If it were me, the next lift improvement I'd do is turn the Rams Head HS quad into a 6-pack as part of installing a HSQ elsewhere.   If it were my decision, I'd replace the Snowdon triple and keep the Snowdon quad in reserve for wind hold and ice hold days.   That gives people a viable alternative when the K1 line is backed up.   I'd also blast/grade that area so it's not so much of an uphill slog from the Great Northern novice trail or from the KBL.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2011)

I thought you were against a HS lift on Snowdon due to the increased capacity killing the tree skiing in the area?


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## EPB (Apr 17, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> From a newsletter I just received from Jay:



Thanks for the info JPT.


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## riverc0il (Apr 17, 2011)

ceo said:


> A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.


That would be one heckuva run. Though they would have to snow make on Vista to get that working. I wonder why they are looking at Paulie's instead of Avalanche? This type of setup takes a lot of trails off line including Paulie's, Avalanche, and all of the Banshee slopes. Additionally, it would really make it hard to cut back to the tram, perhaps even limiting the tram to race only operations? I don't like it any more than other suggestion of Skylight to Ravine. FSC is a cool program but Cannon's racing heritage is just that: heritage. I can't see anything more than a Slalom or GS run off the Front Five without being overly invasive of mountain operations. 

Regarding the Cannonball Quad motor... I was beginning to think that I was just delusional about that chair running slower than it used to. I assume the motor upgrade Puck It refers to means that it is indeed running slower than it used to? That would make me feel less delusional. 

I'd be okay with snowmaking on Mittersill's main runs. Given the current budget situation, I doubt it will be happening this coming off season.


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## Newpylong (Apr 17, 2011)

Vista Way does not have snowmaking right now does it?




ceo said:


> Profile/Cannonball was originally the liftline for the Two Upper T-bars, yes. I apparently didn't save the email, but Cannon Guest Services tells me they changed the name to establish "Cannonball" as a stronger part of Cannon's brand identity (or something like that), to go along with the Cannonball Quad and the Cannonball Pub. (This makes me wonder if the loud (and generally excellent) music at the bottom of Cannonball is intentional mountain policy, as opposed to being on the lifties' initiative as I've been assuming.)
> 
> A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.


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## Newpylong (Apr 17, 2011)

I agree 100%.

Ram's Head lines are the worst on the mountain and they could use a 6 pack there. They could use the HSQ to replace the Snowdon Triple. Having the Snowdon lift closest to K1 be High Speed will help get people out of the base, without affecting traffic in the "Snowdon Bowl". 




Geoff said:


> First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington.   All of the Killington day lodges are disasters.   The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed.   The Killington problem isn't lack of wedding business in July though it's nice to have an attraction that brings a couple of hundred people into town every weekend who ordinarily would be elsewhere.   The Killington problem is lack of people during peak ski season.    ...particulary people who are dialing the Killington 800 number or booking lodging through the Killington web site.    Even at Christmas, MLK, and Presidents week, the resort no longer gets to 100% occupancy.
> 
> Second, POWDR is completely decoupled from the profits from slopeside condo developments.   The Texas H.L. Hunt oil money people from Eiger Fund / E2M / SP Land own the land.   At best, POWDR is a junior partner and is unlikely to ever see a dime of real estate development profit.   It's like investing in a blockbuster movie where there is a 100 million production budget, distribution fees, ....   By the time all the Chinese bookkeeping is done, the minority investor doesn't make much of anything.
> 
> ...


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## AdironRider (Apr 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> 1.5M in total revenue would be a good summer season for that space.  Definitely not profit. Eastern ski areas don't do come close to the F&B revenue figures of western resorts.  Snowshoe is one of the top 10 busiest eastern ski resorts.  They did 7.5M in total F&B revenue in 2002-2003.  That's a 500K skier visit a year resort with extensive summer operations.



I agree, was more commenting on the fact that the potential is there. You and I both know banquets have the most gravy on top. Killington has the skier visits (regardless of what they used to be, approx 650k is still a grip of people) and lets face it, who hasn't heard of them, to support this kind of venture. 

That building still has looked like crap for a long time now. Its definitely not the first place that would come to mind currently. People love these summit places though. Money flows when executed properly. Once paid for, the building should provide a nice budget boost, especially during the lean summer months.


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## oakapple (Apr 18, 2011)

Geoff said:


> First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington.   All of the Killington day lodges are disasters.   The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed.


If they design it right, they ought to be able to do enough catering and events business to service the debt, which is all they need. Also, the restaurant will almost certainly be nicer than what is there now, so they'll get better revenues during the ski season itself. It really is a no-brainer.

I wouldn't say all the lodges are disasters, but they are certainly substandard for a resort of that size.



> If it were me, the next lift improvement I'd do is turn the Rams Head HS quad into a 6-pack as part of installing a HSQ elsewhere.   If it were my decision, I'd replace the Snowdon triple and keep the Snowdon quad in reserve for wind hold and ice hold days.   That gives people a viable alternative when the K1 line is backed up.   I'd also blast/grade that area so it's not so much of an uphill slog from the Great Northern novice trail or from the KBL.


I think they'll do something at Snowdon before replacing the Ramshead Quad. For some reason, though, they seem to be intent on replacing the Snowdon Quad, not the triple. The alleged reason is that the existing quad, which is newer equipment, will replace the South Ridge Triple.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 18, 2011)

Elk is busy replacing some trees.


> Spring is slow to move in this year, but the crews are already busy removing hard wood trees for the Spruce trees program.  This summer, all the deciduous trees between the Chippewa and Tecumseh will be removed to plant entirely with Spruce trees.



http://www.elkskier.com/photoday.html


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## Sparky (Apr 18, 2011)

Why are they replacing the deciduous trees?


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## dmc (Apr 18, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Elk is busy replacing some trees.



Interesting they are doing this.. 

I''m assuming the same thing happened in the Poconos that happened in the Catskills where all the pine trees were chopped down for wood and tanning..
the destruction was so blatant and horrible that it prompted a famous painting called "Hunter Mountain, Twilight"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Hunter_Mountain,_Twilight.jpg

After all the hemlocks were forested, the deciduous trees took over..  
But now a lot of those trees are dying and the hemlocks are starting to come back in places..
I've thought about doing exactly what Elk is doing...

When we "trim" at Hunter - we never trim a hemlock..  At least I don't..


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## RootDKJ (Apr 18, 2011)

Sparky said:


> Why are they replacing the deciduous trees?





dmc said:


> Interesting they are doing this..
> 
> I''m assuming the same thing happened in the Poconos that happened in the Catskills where all the pine trees were chopped down for wood and tanning..
> the destruction was so blatant and horrible that it prompted a famous painting called "Hunter Mountain, Twilight"
> ...



I have no idea.  On the lift, someone told me that they vary the shape and flow of the trails  from time to time.  On the left, you can see some of their previous years efforts.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2011)

Never seen anything like what Elk is doing.  I'd be interested to hear how well it goes.  Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 18, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Never seen anything like what Elk is doing.  I'd be interested to hear how well it goes.  Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.



From what I understand, all trees are off limits at Elk.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> From what I understand, all trees are off limits at Elk.



what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees.  It can do a number on trees.

I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 18, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees.  It can do a number on trees.
> 
> I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.



Gotcha.


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## mondeo (Apr 18, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees. It can do a number on trees.
> 
> I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.


Or Big Dipper at K. Or some other tree to replace all the ones that have died recently.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 18, 2011)

Yes, the Canyon area at K was the 2nd place I had in mind in the east that would benefit from regen zones.


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## mediamogul (Apr 18, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Or Big Dipper at K. Or some other tree to replace all the ones that have died recently.



Yeah, the Double Dipper/Big Dipper area is a prime candidate for this. Big Dipper will eventually de-glade itself and become another open trail if it continues unchecked. That would be one of the ugliest trails in all of skiing if that whole area was just one big open area...


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## threecy (Apr 19, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Never seen anything like what Elk is doing.  I'd be interested to hear how well it goes.  Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.



Planting evergreens at ski areas is something that was done decades ago, prior to the expansion of modern snowmaking.  The University of Massachusetts undertook a major project at Berkshire East decades ago to line trails with evergreens (in addition, some areas that simply didn't hold snow well were returned to trees).


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## Puck it (Apr 19, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Vista Way does not have snowmaking right now does it?



No snowmaking on it.  It would ruin the fun of that trail.


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## riverc0il (Apr 19, 2011)

Puck it said:


> No snowmaking on it.  It would ruin the fun of that trail.


You mean making more than an eight foot wide width skiable for more than a few weeks out of the year? :lol: I wouldn't shed a tear if they blew snow once, leveled Vista, and then never touched it again for the rest of the year. I enjoy using Vista for what it is useful for, but it would be nice if it skied more like a trail more often. Though I still think the idea of making a Downhill run that extends to the Front Five is dumb.


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## 4aprice (Apr 20, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Never seen anything like what Elk is doing.  I'd be interested to hear how well it goes.  Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.



The people who run Elk have some connection to the tree (logging, wood) industry and have been planting trees on the mountain for years.  They have redesigned several trails with this method as well.  Camelback has done the same but on a much smaller scale so far.  Never understood the no trees policy at Elk as it gets the best natural snow in NEPA but its never been allowed.  The Pocono woods are full of surprises but we had some interesting days in the trees at Camelback this past winter.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Puck it (Apr 20, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> You mean making more than an eight foot wide width skiable for more than a few weeks out of the year? :lol: I wouldn't shed a tear if they blew snow once, leveled Vista, and then never touched it again for the rest of the year. I enjoy using Vista for what it is useful for, but it would be nice if it skied more like a trail more often. Though I still think the idea of making a Downhill run that extends to the Front Five is dumb.



It is not that bad.  Little bit of an exaggeration.  A manmade base would be useful to hold snow on the right side, but do not ruin the natural snow feel. It is similar to upper Ridge Run at Kton in vibe.


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## Mapnut (Apr 20, 2011)

I can't think of any replanting program anyone's attempted at higher altitudes in northern New England.  Probably spruces and firs grow too slowly at such altitues and latitudes, although it looks like they do well on Elk.  I once brought a 4-foot long, 4-inch thick, dead krummholtz down from Mt. Madison, NH, sawed through the trunk and counted the rings, and it was 140 years old.


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## my poor knees (Apr 20, 2011)

*Killington Improvements for 2012*

Enclose and heat the maze at the k1 gondola? 

Killington Resort announces nearly $6.5m. in improvements for the 2011-12 season
Wednesday, April 20, 2011
Most notable is the removal of the Peak Lodge from the 4,100 foot level of Killington Peak which was originally constructed as the return station of the original gondola and included a dining facility. “Constructed in the late 1960’s, this facility has reached its usable life span and it is time for it to be replaced,” stated Chris Nyberg, president and general manager of Killington/Pico Ski Resort Partners, LLC. The existing building is currently serviced by the K-1 Express Gondola. 
Pending permit approvals, the removal of the existing building and the new replacement facility and related infrastructure is expected to cost nearly $7 million when completed and will consist of a multilevel restaurant and meeting space facility. The structure will be somewhat smaller than the building it is replacing and reside at the same location as the old structure. “Our primary goal is to replace the existing facility with a building designed to provide optimal views from nearly any point inside the building and the exterior design to blend itself to the preexisting location on the landscape,” Nyberg explained.

The removal project is expected to occur this summer and the new facility constructed the following summer with anticipated completion date of Christmas 2012.

The architectural firm of Robert Carl Williams Associates in Pittsfield, Vt. has been retained for design and planning.

This new facility will become the highest gondola served restaurant and meeting space venue in eastern North America. Situated near Killington Peak in the Green Mountains, the 22,000 square foot facility will provide vistas of the Adirondack Range in N.Y., the White Mountains of N.H. and the Green Mountains of Vt.

"This facility will be an icon for not only the Killington Region in Central Vermont, but for the entire state. The views and experience that the new facility will provide to our guests will be unsurpassed,” Nyberg said.

In addition to the removal of the existing Peak Lodge structure, there will be several other important infrastructure projects undertaken this summer to prepare for the construction of the Killington Peak facility. Projects will include; installations of waste water treatment and fiber optic lines from the summit area of Killington Peak down to the base of the K-1 Express Gondola.

The K-1 Express Gondola base area will also be getting a facelift this summer. The maze area will be covered and heated. Additionally, the gondola car storage area and adjacent guest drop-off area is being renovated.

For the 2011/12 season, a new tubing park will also debut adjacent to East Mountain Road across from the Killington Grand Hotel using the Killington Golf Course Clubhouse as the operations base.

Continued enhancement of the on-snow experience at both Killington Resort and Pico Mountain will take center stage this summer with a dedicated crew that will focus on trail and glade work. “We will be pruning and trimming gladed areas as well as clearing new growth,” stated Jeff Temple, director of mountain operations. “Several years ago we began our trail development project. We’ll continue the program this year by finishing up projects at Bear Mountain and concentrating on Snowdon and Skye Peak this summer as we continue to enhance skier flow."

Killington Resort will also be continuing a substantial investment in its snowmaking system with new replacement snowmaking pipe, hydrants and valves. “We are investing in our grooming fleet with the purchase of three new Prinoth grooming tractors and adding over 150 low energy snowmaking guns to the arsenal,” Temple stated. “The energy cost to produce air for the snowmaking process is the single largest expense in the production of snow. With the increased cost of all types of energy, making snow as efficiently as possible is critical to provide a quality experience to our guests in an environmentally responsible manner.” Man-made snow is critical to the sustainability of Killington’s snow surfaces and is necessary to survive the weather variables seen in the East.

Other areas of Killington Resort receiving improvements this summer include; base lodges, existing chairlifts and the Killington Golf Course. In addition, Killington Resort and Pico Mountain will invest in a new rental equipment fleet providing the latest technology in ski and snowboard equipment to its guests. Also of note is a new disc golf course being built at Pico Mountain that will open July 1.


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2011)

This news is so last week 

Seriously though. a new Peak Lodge has a huge year round upside for not just the ski area itself, but the whole town and surrounding area with I'm guessing what will be an increase in wedding bookings which can add a steady group of extra folks in town for events


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## my poor knees (Apr 21, 2011)

drjeff said:


> This news is so last week
> 
> Seriously though. a new Peak Lodge has a huge year round upside for not just the ski area itself, but the whole town and surrounding area with I'm guessing what will be an increase in wedding bookings which can add a steady group of extra folks in town for events



Sorry, new guy here. I didn't see it.


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2011)

my poor knees said:


> Sorry, new guy here. I didn't see it.



Not a problem, and welcome aboard.

And for future reference, on Alpinezone, chances that that by the time Killington has made an official press release about something, the topic has alreday been discussed and argued about from about 10 different angles over the course of a 5 to 10 page thread! :lol: 

Anything Killington related tends to be a VERY passionate subject here!


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## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Not a problem, and welcome aboard.
> 
> And for future reference, on Alpinezone, chances that that by the time Killington has made an official press release about something, the topic has alreday been discussed and argued about from about 10 different angles over the course of a 5 to 10 page thread! :lol:
> 
> Anything Killington related tends to be a VERY _entertaining _subject here!



FIFY


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## Nick (Apr 21, 2011)

I love Hemlocks, but they are very susceptible to disease, particularly that hemlock eating bug, I forget what it's called. It's ravaged so many of them. hopefully mine stay good, I've got a nice set of them between me and my neighbor's house.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 13, 2011)

Update on Brackett Basin: http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7582535268/meanwhile-over-on-the-east-side

Not sure they needed to cut down more trees in the Can't Dog area, but it's good the plan on clearing out some of the underbrush this year. It'll make for an earlier opening in there.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2011)

Can't Dog area did seem pretty wide open to me.  There were some stands that were still pretty tight.  Perhaps they're just trying to open up more lines?

I definitely wouldn't want the stands that were cleared last year to be any thinner.  

can't wait to make it back there this season


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## WWF-VT (Jul 13, 2011)

Nick said:


> I love Hemlocks, but they are very susceptible to disease, particularly that hemlock eating bug, I forget what it's called. It's ravaged so many of them. hopefully mine stay good, I've got a nice set of them between me and my neighbor's house.



Woolly Adelgid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemlock_woolly_adelgid


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2011)

OK, for Utah:  Snowbird is applying with the NFS to install night skiing off of Gadzoom (terrain park and a blue cruiser or two).  They are also asking to put in a beginner area in between Creekside and Baby Thunder.  Other than that they want to regrade some of the trails.  

More info here:  http://www.snowbird.com/masterdevelopmentplan.html

I'm new to SLC and will probably comment in favor.  

And FWIW it is likely that we will be passholders at Snowbird.  Really like the terrain and the vibe.  The length of season is a major plus.  Plus they are offering my wife and I a sweet deal.


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## riverc0il (Jul 13, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Update on Brackett Basin: http://sugarloaf2020.tumblr.com/post/7582535268/meanwhile-over-on-the-east-side
> 
> Not sure they needed to cut down more trees in the Can't Dog area, but it's good the plan on clearing out some of the underbrush this year. It'll make for an earlier opening in there.


Cut em' low, boys!

Cant Dog seemed pretty damned wide open to me when I skied it last year. Hopefully when they say Cant Dog area, that means they are cutting more lines away from the existing glade.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2011)

..and they are replacing the Baby Thunder with a HSQ.


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## AdironRider (Jul 13, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> OK, for Utah:  Snowbird is applying with the NFS to install night skiing off of Gadzoom (terrain park and a blue cruiser or two).  They are also asking to put in a beginner area in between Creekside and Baby Thunder.  Other than that they want to regrade some of the trails.
> 
> More info here:  http://www.snowbird.com/masterdevelopmentplan.html
> 
> ...



I think you'll be happy there. None of the attitude of Alta and the layout is better. Snow might be a little less, but its a negligible amount when were taking 500+ averages. 

That being said, I was surprised how small Snowbird felt when I went there this past season. Doesnt take away from the terrain, but it could definitely feel crowded.


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## Nick (Jul 27, 2011)

Killington put up a  bunch of pics today on their work. 

http://www.killington.com/summer/gallery/photos






Trail widening on Great Northern section from Snowdon to Ramshead.





New Snowmaking Pipe Arrives at Killington.


More at the link.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2011)

I drove around the K-1 Base and there was a lot of activity.  The Gondola is closed for most of this week because of the demo of the lodge and other work.  There was an excavator on the K-1 Liftline about 2/3 the way up.  There also was a large dump truck at the base of Superstar getting ready to head up one of the service roads.  I will check out what is going on tonight.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 27, 2011)

I thought you were in Utah?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I thought you were in Utah?


 
Was.  In the process of moving.  Long story.  In Vermont now and will be for a few weeks.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2011)

And re: Killington.  Took a long hike this evening.  Started at Snowshed, went to the top of those lifts, meandered down to Northbrook Turn Station, then headed back to Snowshed summit terminals, across to K-1, down through Snowden and down to Ramshead before going back to Snowshed.  Lots of work going on.  They did a nice job clearing the sides of Yodler, Learn to Ski Area, and Great Northern.  They also did some clearing on Northbrook.  It is amazing what some clearing and TLC can do.  Say what you want but they have done a good job cleaning up the place and making it look a lot better than what it was.  The paint jobs were an easy way to help make the lifts look good.  

Lots of scrap from the old Gondi building.  Some pipe of different diameters as well.  I don't think that they are all for snowmaking.  I imagine some is for the new summit building.  Nothing from the South Ridge Triple...yet.  

FWIW the construction guys were on the mountain right until dark.  They had equipment running under the Gondi Line about 2/3 the way up.  Not sure what they are doing.  Maybe snowmaking work.  I did hear the skidder head up the service road.  

Walking around I have never seen so much scrap/spare parts/chairs/junk in my life.  They probably have enough spare chairs to set up an entire new lift.  Some old Yan doubles, Poma triple seats, and even some newer Poma Omega Chair frames still on the pallets and in a few years worth of growth.  So when they said they had some clean up to do they meant it.  

Oh yeah ran into Chris Nyberg on his bike.....


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## Newpylong (Jul 28, 2011)

Did you ask him what they are going to do to South Ridge? heh


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Did you ask him what they are going to do to South Ridge? heh


 
:lol:  He was a little out of breath from his ride.  I am curious as to what is going on there.  There was no remnants of the lift at the K-1 base area.


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## skiberg (Jul 28, 2011)

Cannon is trying to recaputure the OLD FIS course. It starts on Vista Way and finishes on Avalanche, not Pauleys. Cutting, widening and snowmaking are all necessary to accomodate modern racing. It will probably only accomodate Women as the vert is just too short for FIS men. You might be able to race some of the lower division mens races if you can get a waiver for the vert, which is not uncommom. I think the Womens FIS will need a waiver as well. IF this happens it will be very infrequent and only close that area for a few days. It is still a long way from being a done deal.
What is much more likely is widening and snowmaking to Barrons. They are trying to get this done this summer, but this requires a substantial amount of cash. If it happens it will be a primary training area for FSC and will be closed periodically to the public. What goes up must come down, so if the pipe is run up it wil also be run down. They know the general area where it will run, but are not certain if cutting will take place to create another snowmaking trail.


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 28, 2011)

skiberg said:


> Cannon is trying to recaputure the OLD FIS course. It starts on Vista Way and finishes on Avalanche, not Pauleys. Cutting, widening and snowmaking are all necessary to accomodate modern racing..



Please don't cut, widen, etc.  Horrible idea to do that to any old Cannon trails.


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## skiberg (Jul 28, 2011)

I tend to agree with you, but don't stress to bad the cutting will be minimal to reach the width requirements. Most will happen on Bypass below Vista Way. More significant will be the cutting on Barons. However, it will probably help a bunch to have a groomed wider trail for the less experienced skiers to get out of Mit. Also may help to move some people out of the back-country and help it form getting skied out so fast. Barons has the potential to be the longest best ripper type advanced trail at Cannon.


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## Newpylong (Jul 28, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:  He was a little out of breath from his ride.  I am curious as to what is going on there.  There was no remnants of the lift at the K-1 base area.



I think everyone is curious! Its mind boggling that someone hasn't gotten and spilled the inside scoop yet regarding long term replacement plans. Someone must know...   I also would like to k now whether the downhill as well as the uphill towers are coming down... tough to tell the photos I've seen : )


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2011)

Just walked around Bear Mountain tonight.  I had not been there since 2008, so the new HSQ was a sight to see.  I was  to walk up and see that they have left the towers from the Devil's Fiddle in place.  The line and chairs are down.  The pylons, with hanging sheave trains, are just plain spooky.  The rusting remnants are actually an eyesore, especially if you own a trophy home at Sunrise overlooking the area.  The chairs are lined up in an area that at one time was a parking lot.  No sign of the SRT.


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## Newpylong (Jul 31, 2011)

Just like they left the Northeast Passage towers in below Sunrise, an eyesore and a reminder of what used to be. They are so grown in already they probably will never come out...


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## WoodCore (Jul 31, 2011)

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but a new drive terminal for the old Hall summit double at Mount Southington is being installed this summer. Believe the new drive is going to be a Partek.


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## bigbob (Aug 1, 2011)

It costs money to hire a helicopter to remove the towers and they may be leaving the towers in place to make it easier to obtain a permit in the future if they want to rebuild.
 Bubba on K Zone mentioned he talked with Chris Nyberg about the SRT at the wine festival and Chris stated parts from the Snowden Quad would be used to rebuild the SRT. No mention of when this will happen.


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## Newpylong (Aug 1, 2011)

that is good news. So I guess we're looking in the 2014-15 season at the earliest? 2012-13 they will rebuild the peak lodge and I guess in 2013-14 replace the Snowdon Quad..


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## oakapple (Aug 1, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> I was  to walk up and see that they have left the towers from the Devil's Fiddle in place.  The line and chairs are down.  The pylons, with hanging sheave trains, are just plain spooky.  The rusting remnants are actually an eyesore, especially if you own a trophy home at Sunrise overlooking the area.


They're an eyesore, full stop. There really is no excuse for not removing them.



Newpylong said:


> Just like they left the Northeast Passage towers in below Sunrise, an eyesore and a reminder of what used to be. They are so grown in already they probably will never come out...


The old Northeast Passage towers, as you've noted, are so overgrown that one does not really notice them. Take newbies there, don't say anything in advance, and see if they notice. They probably won't. Both times I have taken newbies to the base of Sunrise, I had to point out the abandoned towers. They don't really stand out. Even before the vegetation became over-grown, removing those towers would have been awfully difficult. And as another poster mentioned, leaving them there at least allows the possibility of re-activating those trails at some future date, remote though the possibility may be.



Newpylong said:


> I think everyone is curious! Its mind boggling that someone hasn't gotten and spilled the inside scoop yet regarding long term replacement plans.


The idea that the Snowdon Quad would be moved to the South Ridge return line has been in the rumor mill for several years, and Nyberg himself confirms this. But K management is remarkably good at keeping their plans under wraps until they choose to announce them officially.


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## WJenness (Aug 1, 2011)

Don't know if anyone saw this... But some doings at Sunday River this summer.. (Stolen from SR board, Darcy is the Snow Reporter up that way):



> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



-w


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## deadheadskier (Aug 1, 2011)

wow, that is a big glade for sure.  Hopefully they do it right and don't over clear like they did in OZ.

When they say, "First ever slopeside real estate development" I'm assuming that means by Boyne?  There are obviously quite a few slopeside condos and homes at Sunday River already.


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## millerm277 (Aug 1, 2011)

bigbob said:


> It costs money to hire a helicopter to remove the towers and they may be leaving the towers in place to make it easier to obtain a permit in the future if they want to rebuild.



You don't need a helicopter to remove towers, except maybe if you want to reuse them. (unlikely). Otherwise, they'll go down just like a tree on a hill would when you cut it down...


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## WJenness (Aug 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> wow, that is a big glade for sure.  Hopefully they do it right and don't over clear like they did in OZ.



Agreed... If they keep the feel of Blind Ambition the same and just expand the breadth of it, it'll be a huge hit... Here's hoping they've learned from past mistakes.



> When they say, "First ever slopeside real estate development" I'm assuming that means by Boyne?  There are obviously quite a few slopeside condos and homes at Sunday River already.



Yeah, that made me scratch my head a bit too... but since that isn't really something I'm overly interested in, it was only passing confusion for me.

-w


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## Vortex (Aug 1, 2011)

Darcy runs the communication department at Sr. The snow reporters work for her I believe.

The River will benefit from and intermediate/beginner glade expansion.  That part of the mountain gets the most natural snow as well.  Glad to see money going into snow making too.


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## Vortex (Aug 1, 2011)

Bob R said:


> Darcy runs the communication department at Sr. The snow reporters work for her I believe.
> 
> The River will benefit from and intermediate/beginner glade expansion.  That part of the mountain gets the most natural snow as well.  Glad to see money going into snow making too.



update./edit

A couple buddies looked at the glade on sat. Looks like a thinning not a clear cut.  I will take a look next weekend.


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## snowmonster (Aug 1, 2011)

Bob R said:


> update./edit
> 
> A couple buddies look at the glade on sat. Looks like a thinning not a clear cut.  I will take a look next weekend.



Pictures please, Bob! Blind Ambition is a great intermediate glade. A bunch of SR regulars and I hit it last season after a snowstorm. The rope just dropped and it was untracked. We spent the morning making tracks in soft and deep snow. Unreal! Like what wjenness said, I trust that they will be selectively pruning some trees on skiers' right to expand the area. No use clear-cutting what is already an awesome place. I always said that SR's glades are underrated. Hopefully, this gets the place on the map for glade skiers.


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## Vortex (Aug 1, 2011)

I'll see what I can do.  Sounds like the glades will not meet Excalibur until the base.

They did a good job re- clearing some of the glades last year.  I think this will go well.


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## bigbob (Aug 1, 2011)

Darcy, Any further info on what lifts will see some love this summer?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 1, 2011)

Update: just drove up to K-1 Base Area and some sheave trains from a former Yan or Poma chairlift have appeared in the parking lot with the old Killington blue/gray and sea green paint.  The sheave trains were cut off of the towers based on the pieces of frame that are still attached.  The pieces were on a Killington flatbed truck.  No other components.  Lots of scrap from the Summit Lodge.


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## AdironRider (Aug 1, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> You don't need a helicopter to remove towers, except maybe if you want to reuse them. (unlikely). Otherwise, they'll go down just like a tree on a hill would when you cut it down...




OK HEMAN, you going to carry em out one in each arm once you cut em down?


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## snoseek (Aug 1, 2011)

I freaking love Blind ambition! More is even funner!

This should spread things out nicely on Jordan. I found some really cool stuff over there last spring.....


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## Geoff (Aug 2, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> OK HEMAN, you going to carry em out one in each arm once you cut em down?



Easiest thing would be to wait until winter and drag them out with a snow cat.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Easiest thing would be to wait until winter and drag them out with a snow cat.



or drag them out with a dozer with some skids under them.


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## drjeff (Aug 2, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Easiest thing would be to wait until winter and drag them out with a snow cat.



That's one of the main reasons why Mount Snow really got mooving quickly on taking down the old Summit Local Triple last March/Early April.  So much easier, and less of a potential environmental impact, in dragging large, heavy steel objects over snow than over dirt/rocks/stream beds/etc.  And it's also WAY cheaper to be able to drag them out of there with a snowcat than to have them flown out with a helicopter!


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## Geoff (Aug 2, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> or drag them out with a dozer with some skids under them.



People like Big Bob probably know this but I imagine that there's much more wear and tear on a dozer doing all those round trips in the summer than a snow cat doing the same distance in the winter.   It certainly would beat up the Jug trail a lot more.


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## Vortex (Aug 3, 2011)

Snowmonster.  They posted pictures of the glade clearing on the River site. I don't know how to transfer them.  I won't be taking any shots.  Lolla is closed with all the heavy equiptment working over there.


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## snowmonster (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks, Bob. Heading over in a bit.


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## speden (Aug 4, 2011)

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but I got an email from Wawa saying they are putting in a new quad lift in the beginner area.  That's good news since I always thought that lift was was agonizingly slow.  Kind of a tossup between the Spear triple at Ragged and the beginner lift at Wachusett as to which is the slowest lift in New England.  I guess Ragged will hold that crown next season if the new lift at Wawa is decently quick.  Anyway I'm happy to hear about this lift at Wawa since it might keep more people over at the beginner area.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2011)

FWIW Killington regulars will be interested to know that the Peak Lodge is completely gone.  It is the weirdest sight you see when looking up from the base.  I guess the last time the skyline looked like that was probably over 40 years ago.


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## Nick (Aug 4, 2011)

Having grown up on Killington practically, that is wierd. Where the K-1 Gondola usually deposits? 

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2011)

Nick said:


> Having grown up on Killington practically, that is wierd. Where the K-1 Gondola usually deposits?
> 
> Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


 
Yes.  The huge building on the left of the old double pictured below is now gone.  







Or the big building at the top in the pic below.  Compare that photo from like 1980 to this one from 2008 or 2009:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2011)

...and FWIW either the original or newer edition of Karen Lorentz's book (Killington: A Story of Mountains and Men) is worth the read.  Though the first edition is a real treat if you can find it.


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## AdironRider (Aug 4, 2011)

Thats the best comparison of the atrocity that all that cutting did. Was that Pres or ASC?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Thats the best comparison of the atrocity that all that cutting did. Was that Pres or ASC?


 
If you are talking about Double Dipper (late 1980's) and the Canyon Quad (1991 or so) then it was SKI (Pres). Wide, super trails, was the fad at that time. IIRC they wanted Double Dipper to offer skiing like out west.


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## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2011)

Pretty soon they will have it, the Canyon will be clear of trees from the Quad all the way to East Fall, lol.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 5, 2011)

They should replant some trees there.  While I like DD, there is just no reason for it to be that wide.


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## Watatic Skier (Aug 5, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> ...and FWIW either the original or newer edition of Karen Lorentz's book (Killington: A Story of Mountains and Men) is worth the read.  Though the first edition is a real treat if you can find it.



I read through the second edition fully while in florida recently. Its probably the most detailed ski book I have ever seen.  I just wished it (and alot of other books like it) included more maps to make it easier to compare things.


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## AdironRider (Aug 5, 2011)

Double Dipper has got to be my least favorite trail at Killington. What a waste. Reminds me of Profile at Cannon.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 13, 2011)

email from Ragged this morning:

Over $1,000,000 in Resort Improvements – We’re stoked about our plans to invest in a vastly improved water delivery system for snowmaking, allowing us to recharge our snowmaking pond over 3 times faster than in the past. Much faster water delivery along with another 80 to 100 high efficiency, low energy guns on the mountain will let us open more terrain much earlier in the season. One of our trails will be fully automated, allowing faster opening and improved energy efficiency. We also plan to make snow on Easy Winder and Birches this season. The addition of a new Prinoth groomer will make the quality and consistency of our grooming better than ever before! 



this should be good.  my biggest complaint about Ragged the past two seasons was how slow terrain expansion was during early season.  Their snowmaking pond was capable of basically opening two top to bottom trails before it was emptied.  It would then take 3 days to fill it back up via pumping water up to the hill from the bog in the valley.  So being able to fill the pond in 1 day is going to make a huge difference early season.  The added snowguns will as well.  They essentially only had enough guns to line one trail and then had to move them to the next trail.  That meant minimal resurfacing throughout the season.

The decision to make snow on Birches and I assume turn it into a groomer is also a smart decision.  The main mountain was in need of another cruising trail to easy some of the traffic off of Chute and Lower Ridge.

If they couple these improvements with a faster lift up Spear, I think Ragged will see a pretty significant increase in skier visits in the coming years.


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