# AZ Challenge 2011 Results: Killington



## Nick (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks to Chris Nyberg and Sarah Thorson for providing answers to our questions! 

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2011/response.htm?resort=killington


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2011)

Well, there is confirmation that Snowdon Quad will become a HSQ and that the two areas will eventually be connected.


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## SkiDork (Nov 28, 2011)

so I guess May skiing (beyond a few days) is dead.

I liked the interconnect attitude.


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## millerm277 (Nov 28, 2011)

All reasonable answers. Good to hear they are planning to replace the SRT/Snowdon and that the Interconnect isn't dead.

I think he is somewhat mistaken about the May skiing, in that Killington misses a key detail about why it was more viable in the past.....there were events. They held various competitions and other things to give people a reason to come up. He's absolutely right in that "May skiing" alone, doesn't draw enough people.


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## Newpylong (Nov 28, 2011)

Positive responses that hopefully can put rumors to bed. The Snowdon Quad will be replaced by a HSQ, probably in two years. The old Quad will go to South Ridge, probably in 3 years. the interconnect will happen once all this stuff is done.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 28, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> I think he is somewhat mistaken about the May skiing, in that Killington misses a key detail about why it was more viable in the past.....there were events. They held various competitions and other things to give people a reason to come up. He's absolutely right in that "May skiing" alone, doesn't draw enough people.



+ 1.  They are using a different business model than SKI was I guess.


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2011)

Interesting positivity on the interconnect. "Not within the first five years".......well, this is actually the start of POWDR's 5th year of operations at Killingon.  It will be five years this spring.


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## oakapple (Nov 28, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> Interesting positivity on the interconnect. "Not within the first five years".......well, this is actually the start of POWDR's 5th year of operations at Killingon.  It will be five years this spring.



Of course, that doesn't mean "Year 6" either; it just means "not within five". It sounds like the completion of the Peak Lodge, the replacement of the Snowdon Quad, and the replacement of the South Ridge Triple, are all a higher priority than the Interconnect.

On the other hand, he did say quite emphatically that he expects it to happen.


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## mediamogul (Nov 28, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Of course, that doesn't mean "Year 6" either; it just means "not within five". It sounds like the completion of the Peak Lodge, the replacement of the Snowdon Quad, and the replacement of the South Ridge Triple, are all a higher priority than the Interconnect.
> 
> On the other hand, he did say quite emphatically that he expects it to happen.



I would be interested to see the details of the plan for the interconnect. He did say "plan" didn't he. 

They also better have a plan for a layout of snowdon that promotes better skier flow. Otherwise adding twice as many people to that trail pod is going to be utter chaos.

Also, there is no way a quad will fit on the return line of the jug where it becomes black. I would expect that they will widen at least that portion of the trail.


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## oakapple (Nov 28, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> I would be interested to see the details of the plan for the interconnect. He did say "plan" didn't he.


The permitting application is a matter of public record. They probably won't talk about exactly how they are going to go about it, until they are ready to start construction. I don't blame them. Killington partisans tend to _roast_ the management, if anything they say turns out to be even _slightly_ incorrect. Partly because of that, they tend not to go into details any earlier than they have to.


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## millerm277 (Nov 28, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> They also better have a plan for a layout of snowdon that promotes better skier flow. Otherwise adding twice as many people to that trail pod is going to be utter chaos.



They are slowly improving it, such as with the well-done adjustment to Great Northern up in the Glades/North Ridge this year and the previous widening of Lower Bunny Buster, but realistically, you are never going to be able to "solve" the traffic issues in the center of Snowdon unless you're willing to either destroy the Snowdon woods to reroute GN entirely, or unless you turn it into a mess of speed/traffic control fence everywhere.

If it is a HSQ and not a 6-pack, the new lift is not going to make a huge difference in uphill capacity, so busy days are not going to get that much worse. What will change instead is that you will have more "busy days" on Snowdon, because people will want to take the lift more, and all that sort of thing.

That said, there are other things they can do to try to shift traffic more. Frolic badly needs to be redesigned, for instance. It's got a couple of "steep" turns too difficult for beginners at the top, and then it's flat/uphill. Make it less terrible and widen Caper below the Northstar intersection, and you'll make that area more friendly to beginners instead of just being connector trails that most people don't like.


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## SkiDork (Nov 28, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> He's absolutely right in that "May skiing" alone, doesn't draw enough people.



I never understood statements like this when they have half to 1/3 of the cars in the parking lot on a typical day for mountain biking and never say boo about that not drawing enough people/staying open.


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## MadPadraic (Nov 28, 2011)

Just to invite flames....better to open another mountain than widen the trails.


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## roark (Nov 28, 2011)

oakapple said:


> The permitting application is a matter of public record. They probably won't talk about exactly how they are going to go about it, until they are ready to start construction. I don't blame them. Killington partisans tend to _roast_ the management, if anything they say turns out to be even _slightly_ incorrect. Partly because of that, they tend not to go into details any earlier than they have to.



so why not invite input from your clientele ala jay peak a couple years ago?


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## skiersleft (Nov 28, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> I never understood statements like this when they have half to 1/3 of the cars in the parking lot on a typical day for mountain biking and never say boo about that not drawing enough people/staying open.



Aren't they required by law to open during the summer regardless of how busy it is?


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 28, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> I never understood statements like this when they have half to 1/3 of the cars in the parking lot on a typical day for mountain biking and never say boo about that not drawing enough people/staying open.



It is a whole lot cheaper to operate for Mtn. iking than it is in ski season.


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## SkiDork (Nov 29, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> It is a whole lot cheaper to operate for Mtn. iking than it is in ski season.



how so?  (bearing in mind the snow is already on the mountain in the spring, and you don't need to groom either)


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## Nick (Nov 29, 2011)

I've wondered the same. I always kinda figured running / maintaining the lifts and salaries for those people would be the biggest operating expenses. And snowmaking but no one is making snow in May.


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## tt431 (Nov 29, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> I never understood statements like this when they have half to 1/3 of the cars in the parking lot on a typical day for mountain biking and never say boo about that not drawing enough people/staying open.


Yeah, lots of cars in the parking lot but they also see tailgate BBQs but not a lot bar, food or day tickets sales.  Policies are not written in stone so maybe the U bars can potentially create more spring business  and make opening later into May profitable.


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## SkiDork (Nov 29, 2011)

tt431 said:


> Yeah, lots of cars in the parking lot but they also see tailgate BBQs but not a lot bar, food or day tickets sales.  Policies are not written in stone so maybe the U bars can potentially create more spring business  and make opening later into May profitable.



mountain bikers no doubt have season passes as well...


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Aren't they required by law to open during the summer regardless of how busy it is?



huh?

That can't be true.


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## oakapple (Nov 29, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Aren't they required by law to open during the summer regardless of how busy it is?



I believe that is true. The ski resort operates on public lands. When it is not being used for skiing, it has to be open to the public. But of course, they aren't making much money in the summer, aside from those who pay a nominal fee to ride the gondola.


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## millerm277 (Nov 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> huh?
> 
> That can't be true.




Killington has an odd lease with a bunch of conditions like that in it. I have a copy at home, but won't be back there until Dec 15th. I believe (edit: Shortski) on KZone also has a copy.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2011)

Does the lease stipulate that they have to offer lift service or that they just need to offer access?


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## skiersleft (Nov 29, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> Killington has an odd lease with a bunch of conditions like that in it. I have a copy at home, but won't be back there until Dec 15th. I believe Geoff on KZone also has a copy.



That's my understanding as well. I believe the lease requires them to run a lift from July 1 through the summer. So, the mountain biking analogy doesn't work, because they have to do that even if they lose money doing so.


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## skiersleft (Nov 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Does the lease stipulate that they have to offer lift service or that they just need to offer access?



Lift service.


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## SkiDork (Nov 29, 2011)

sounds stupid.

Why does the lease not specify lifts required to be running through 6/1 as well?


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## skiersleft (Nov 29, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> sounds stupid.
> 
> Why does the lease not specify lifts required to be running through 6/1 as well?



Don't shoot the messenger. That's what the lease states. Sausage making is not pretty or logical. I'm
guessing Powdr wanted to run a summer lift as late as possible if at all. Vermont probably wanted the lift to run as early as possible. They settled on July 1st. Things like that happen. It doesn't have to be logical. It just is.


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## threecy (Nov 29, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> sounds stupid.
> 
> Why does the lease not specify lifts required to be running through 6/1 as well?



That could have something to do with the seasonal state park closure each spring - ie Camel's Hump, for instance, is technically closed from mid April to Memorial Day.


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## oakapple (Nov 29, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> sounds stupid.
> 
> Why does the lease not specify lifts required to be running through 6/1 as well?



In any event, I believe they run the K-1 gondola year-round, weather permitting. I'm sure they (at least) recover the minimal cost of spinning it. And of course, once the new Peak Lodge is built, they'll have year-round dining, catering, and event revenues on top of that.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 29, 2011)

Doesn't Stowe have a similar agreement for their gondola?


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## skiadikt (Nov 29, 2011)

SkiDork said:


> mountain bikers no doubt have season passes as well...



and those passes cost $99 early purchase and max out at $159. chicken feed compared to the ski passes.

while i agree it probably costs a bit more to open the mtn for skiing - maybe a couple ski patrollers and very minimal grooming. but the cost is offset somewhat by the differential in cost of running superstar vs the k1. k1 requires more personnel and uses more energy.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Doesn't Stowe have a similar agreement for their gondola?



If that is the case then it's a crappy deal for both Killington and Stowe.  Unless summer operation losses are factored into the overall cost of the lease.  

I can appreciate the USFS requiring public access, but to demand a private business to operate when not profitable seems a bit unreasonable.  

I'm with SkiDork in that why then wouldn't skiers lobby to have the lifts spin at K through May as well.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I can appreciate the USFS requiring public access, but to demand a private business to operate when not profitable seems a bit unreasonable.



I agree, but why else do both mountains run their gondolas?  While I am sure there are people who use the gondola in the summer, it certainly is a losing venture.


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## millerm277 (Nov 29, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm with SkiDork in that why then wouldn't skiers lobby to have the lifts spin at K through May as well.



The leases were written 50 years ago, so who knows what the thinking was.


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## powhunter (Nov 29, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> All reasonable answers. Good to hear they are planning to replace the SRT/Snowdon and that the Interconnect isn't dead.
> 
> *I think he is somewhat mistaken about the May skiing, in that Killington misses a key detail about why it was more viable in the past.....there were events.* They held various competitions and other things to give people a reason to come up. He's absolutely right in that "May skiing" alone, doesn't draw enough people.



Kmart used to own the spring

BMMC
Superstar bumps
Last day race
Triathalon

Dont bow down to the beast!!! Keep up the rant about spring skiing!!  If its marketed correctly it can be profitable..Im sure some K management reads these forums

Steveo


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> The leases were written 50 years ago, so who knows what the thinking was.



Stowe Gondola and Killington Gondola didn't exist 50 years ago, so stipulating that they run has to be a new amendment to the lease.


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## skiersleft (Nov 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Stowe Gondola and Killington Gondola didn't exist 50 years ago, so stipulating that they run has to be a new amendment to the lease.



What matters is that the lease requires lift service during the summer at K. It may be stupid or not, but it is what it is. And given that it requires this, comparisons between may skiing and mountain biking are inapposite. K's claim that May skiing is not profitable is simply not undermined by the fact that they open for summer operations given that they are required to do so by law.


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## skiadikt (Nov 30, 2011)

at some point, may skiing at k if not marginally profitable, was deemed worth doing at least on some level as they did it for almost 30 yrs. you'd think someone at one of the board meetings would have told pres he was frickin nuts. it was only when asc went belly up did they decide to end it.

there was a core group (myself included) for whom the ski season didn't end until memorial weekend. on a nice may weekend they'd have a pretty good crowd that included skiers and ski (bump) teams from all over out there. people were programmed to think that k sometimes skied into june and if you needed your fix or one more day that's where you went. it said it from the lift towers. they had enough of a business that made it worthwhile. wasn't like it was a one year experiment. given the population center, there's room for one eastern ski area to occupy what there is of that market. there used to be a war between k & sugarbush to see who would last the longest.

at this point, i'd be happy to see k do what jay peak, sugarloaf and the bush do. stay open as long as the snow lasts. since powdr has taken over, they've closed with at least another week or two left on the hill.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2011)

If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.

I think I've paid $50 to ski K late April the past couple of seasons.  If I were a pass holder, I'd have no qualms with spending $25 a day if that's what it took to keep the mountain open a few more weekends.


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## tt431 (Nov 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.
> 
> I think I've paid $50 to ski K late April the past couple of seasons.  If I were a pass holder, I'd have no qualms with spending $25 a day if that's what it took to keep the mountain open a few more weekends.



+1


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## steamboat1 (Nov 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.
> 
> I think I've paid $50 to ski K late April the past couple of seasons.  If I were a pass holder, I'd have no qualms with spending $25 a day if that's what it took to keep the mountain open a few more weekends.


If I want to get the early season discount on a killington pass I have to purchase it before May 1 for the next season. Now your saying I should lay out money for a pass for next season & be forced to purchase tickets for this season if I want to ski all at the same time? That doesn't sit well with me & I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with others.


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## skiadikt (Nov 30, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> If I want to get the early season discount on a killington pass I have to purchase it before May 1 for the next season. Now your saying I should lay out money for a pass for next season & be forced to purchase tickets for this season if I want to ski all at the same time? That doesn't sit well with me & I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with others.



agree. don't think any other ski area does it. jay, sugarloaf & sugarbush all stay open until the snow is done for no additional charge to passholders.


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## Black Phantom (Nov 30, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> If I want to get the early season discount on a killington pass I have to purchase it before May 1 for the next season. Now your saying I should lay out money for a pass for next season & be forced to purchase tickets for this season if I want to ski all at the same time? That doesn't sit well with me & I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with others.



No doubt!


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## oakapple (Nov 30, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> at some point, may skiing at k if not marginally profitable, was deemed worth doing at least on some level as they did it for almost 30 yrs. you'd think someone at one of the board meetings would have told pres he was frickin nuts. it was only when asc went belly up did they decide to end it.


The cost-benefit may very well have been different then. Costs and revenues do not necessarily change at the same pace, and we are talking about 3 decades ago. And to tell the truth, maybe President Smith _was_ just a little bit crazy. We don't have the data.



deadheadskier said:


> If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.


Once you've said (in effect) F.U. to the passholder, they are more likely to take their money to another mountain.


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## threecy (Nov 30, 2011)

Some issues with May skiing:
- A significant portion of your skier base has moved onto other activities and obligations.
- A small portion of the remaining skier base (upper level) will be able to ski Superstar.
- Profit centers such as ski school and rentals essentially no longer exist.
- A small portion of the remaining skier base is willing to pay to ski.
- In winter, a day of precip tends to mean snow and thus increased business.  In late spring, a day of precip tends to mean rain and thus no business.


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## RENO (Nov 30, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> agree. don't think any other ski area does it. jay, sugarloaf & sugarbush all stay open until the snow is done for no additional charge to passholders.



Pretty sure everybody closed about the same time last season. I even think Killington was open longer than Jay and Sugarbush.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> If I want to get the early season discount on a killington pass I have to purchase it before May 1 for the next season. Now your saying I should lay out money for a pass for next season & be forced to purchase tickets for this season if I want to ski all at the same time? That doesn't sit well with me & I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with others.





skiadikt said:


> agree. don't think any other ski area does it. jay, sugarloaf & sugarbush all stay open until the snow is done for no additional charge to passholders.





Black Phantom said:


> No doubt!



just offering a potential solution.  Nyberg said the skier traffic doesn't warrant being open.  I'm sure they factor in a usage rate that time of year to be heavy on season pass holders and light on walk up ticket purchasers.

It's clear they don't think May skiing is profitable.  It was just a suggestion on how to bring more cash into the situation.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 30, 2011)

RENO said:


> Pretty sure everybody closed about the same time last season. I even think Killington was open longer than Jay and Sugarbush.



Killington & Sugarbush both closed on the same day last season (May 1). Jay & Sugarloaf stayed open a week or 2 longer. Jay won the prize last year for the last area to close. They reopened for a day or 2 after getting a freak May snowstorm.


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## Black Phantom (Nov 30, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington & Sugarbush both closed on the same day last season (May 1). Jay & Sugarloaf stayed open a week or 2 longer. Jay won the prize last year for the last area to close. They reopened for a day or 2 after getting a freak May snowstorm.



And it was real good!


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## skiersleft (Nov 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> just offering a potential solution.  Nyberg said the skier traffic doesn't warrant being open.  I'm sure they factor in a usage rate that time of year to be heavy on season pass holders and light on walk up ticket purchasers.
> 
> It's clear they don't think May skiing is profitable.  It was just a suggestion on how to bring more cash into the situation.



Don't some mountains out west offer two season passes? A winter season pass and a spring/summer season pass? I think Crystal just did this last year.


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## skiadikt (Nov 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Don't some mountains out west offer two season passes? A winter season pass and a spring/summer season pass? I think Crystal just did this last year.



k used to sell a spring pass.


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## tt431 (Nov 30, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> k used to sell a spring pass.



I like the idea of a spring pass.  I'd rather pay a few extra bucks and ski than not having the option.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2011)

tt431 said:


> I like the idea of a spring pass.  I'd rather pay a few extra bucks and ski than not having the option.



Sugarbush does this and IIRC Killington did as well at one point.  But regular season passes are still valid of course.


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## tt431 (Nov 30, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Sugarbush does this and IIRC Killington did as well at one point.  But regular season passes are still valid of course.



I get a K season pass but I wouldn't mind paying extra for a spring pass,  at least you can ski later in May, now you can't.  Maybe giving season pass holders a discount is in order, like deadheadskier suggested.


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## Riverskier (Nov 30, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.
> 
> I think I've paid $50 to ski K late April the past couple of seasons.  If I were a pass holder, I'd have no qualms with spending $25 a day if that's what it took to keep the mountain open a few more weekends.



I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as it was never prior to 5/1 (could be a slippery slope). I figure most major areas can make 5/1 without making a glacier ala Superstar or White Heat of the old days. I would be happy to pay extra to help make it financially feasible to build a glacier, and to be able to ski well into May.


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## skiersleft (Nov 30, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as it was never prior to 5/1 (could be a slippery slope). I figure most major areas can make 5/1 without making a glacier ala Superstar or White Heat of the old days. I would be happy to pay extra to help make it financially feasible to build a glacier, and to be able to ski well into May.



Me too. And that's what I was suggesting. K sells a winter season pass valid from opening to late April and then a spring pass valid from late April to late May if conditions permit. Winter pass holders have to get the spring pass to ski after late April. I would buy both passes. If there's enough demand, it would make it profitable. If there's not enough demand, then K is right and opening in May is not profitable.


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## skiadikt (Nov 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Me too. And that's what I was suggesting. K sells a winter season pass valid from opening to late April and then a spring pass valid from late April to late May if conditions permit. Winter pass holders have to get the spring pass to ski after late April. I would buy both passes. If there's enough demand, it would make it profitable. If there's not enough demand, then K is right and opening in May is not profitable.



"... and then a spring pass valid from late April to late May if conditions permit." there's the rub. what if conditions don't permit. do i get a refund if they're only open to may 7 or not at all? has to be some guarantee. the old k spring pass, geared for skiers from other ski areas whose home mtn closed earlier than k, was usually valid from mid-march to the end of season which was usually 2 1/2 months. you're talking a couple weeks at best pass. do they just sell day tickets instead discounted for the passholders.

at this point i don't expect anyone to be blowing any more glaciers, just simply stay open as long as the snow lasts. another week or two like jay and sugarloaf do. they certainly can't lose any more money than they lost today running 2 lifts for 5 people or daily during mtn biking season and if the weather cooperates they have a good chance of making some.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> And it was real good!



Yeah I know. I was at K & it was a bluebird day with a few well covered trails off the Superstar lift open. If I remember right superstar, skylark, bittersweet, upper ovatation & panic button into upper needle's were still open. Still good cover on cascade, downdraft & double dipper if you took the short hike over from the chair.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 30, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Don't some mountains out west offer two season passes? A winter season pass and a spring/summer season pass? I think Crystal just did this last year.



I believe quite a few areas in the east sold spring skiing passes last year. As for a combo winter/summer pass I believe quite a few areas offer them also.

As for paying extra even though I bought a season pass I'm against the idea. I skied May 1 last year & the mountain probably could have stayed open for another week or two with the cover they had. What do you want them to tell me that after April 15 my pass is not valid anymore. If that was their policy I'd have second thoughts about buying the season pass to begin with as I'm sure many others would. They'd probably lose more revenue if this was their policy than any possible gain they'd get from selling a spring pass.


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## JimG. (Nov 30, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> I would be happy to pay extra to help make it financially feasible to build a glacier, and to be able to ski well into May.



Me too...but then they would surely want the money upfront, early in the season. And then the issue of closing dates becomes a game of opinions.

Maybe they just don't want to deal with that anymore.


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## RENO (Nov 30, 2011)

Come on, none of this is gonna happen! :lol: I'm not spending any more money. The passes are already high enough. I want a season pass that's good for the entire season. Some of you want them to cut the season pass to early or mid April and then charge you for another pass from then until closing? :-o That's ridiculous. :lol:


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## Rogman (Nov 30, 2011)

A number of resorts have stayed open later than Killington in recent years. All do considerably less visits than Killington, and yet they obviously feel it is in their financial interest to remain open. It really isn't about revenue directly, but rather how they view the springtime business and how it fits into their overall business plan. I doubt a modest increase in the lift ticket revenue stream would alter Nyberg's thinking. It is not a POWDR decision, either. Mt Bachelor was open for July 4th. You want May skiing at K? Drink at the umbrella bar. That's his baby, it'll give him a reason to stay open. He wants to see that succeed.


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## mister moose (Nov 30, 2011)

Rogman said:


> A number of resorts have stayed open later than Killington in recent years. All do considerably less visits than Killington, and yet they obviously feel it is in their financial interest to remain open. It really isn't about revenue directly, but rather how they view the springtime business and how it fits into their overall business plan. I doubt a modest increase in the lift ticket revenue stream would alter Nyberg's thinking. It is not a POWDR decision, either. Mt Bachelor was open for July 4th. You want May skiing at K? Drink at the umbrella bar. That's his baby, it'll give him a reason to stay open. He wants to see that succeed.



Strongly agree/disagree.

Yes, it's how they choose to view the springtime business.

Nyberg of course wants to see the umbrella bar do well, but
1) It's a punt from the Superstar Pub loss, and 
2) The ROI meter shuts off at the end of April.

Huge business at the new bar will just make them glad they did it, and will still close in May.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2011)

RENO said:


> Come on, none of this is gonna happen! :lol: I'm not spending any more money. The passes are already high enough. I want a season pass that's good for the entire season. Some of you want them to cut the season pass to early or mid April and then charge you for another pass from then until closing? :-o That's ridiculous. :lol:



You'd rather the mountain continue to close May 1st, then spend $25 a day to be able to ski weekends in May?

In an ideal world, Powdr would be running Killington like Pres Smith, but those days are over.  6 years worth of bitching on the internet really hasn't changed much outside of a fancy new stairwell and a couple of vouchers given out last year because they pulled the plug a week early the year prior when the forecast for rain didn't happen and Superstar sat in the nice spring sun for what was supposed to be the final weekend.

I know when I was skiing Jay on May 7th, there were a ton of Killington skiers there paying the $40 or whatever they were charging.  Given the choice, I think they'd all had rather been skiing Superstar instead of driving all the way up to Jay to ski the Jet.


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## RENO (Dec 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> You'd rather the mountain continue to close May 1st, then spend $25 a day to be able to ski weekends in May?
> 
> In an ideal world, Powdr would be running Killington like Pres Smith, but those days are over.  6 years worth of bitching on the internet really hasn't changed much outside of a fancy new stairwell and a couple of vouchers given out last year because they pulled the plug a week early the year prior when the forecast for rain didn't happen and Superstar sat in the nice spring sun for what was supposed to be the final weekend.
> 
> I know when I was skiing Jay on May 7th, there were a ton of Killington skiers there paying the $40 or whatever they were charging.  Given the choice, I think they'd all had rather been skiing Superstar instead of driving all the way up to Jay to ski the Jet.



When I purchase a season pass I just want it to be good for the ENTIRE season and not have to shell out more money if the season goes into May. I don't think ending a season pass early-mid April and adding a pass from then until the snow melts will ever fly. It's just not gonna happen. Nobody on the planet does that. There's a reason why it's called a SEASON pass. I don't hate Nyberg and I think he's done some good things at Killington, unfortunately, as long as Nyberg is in charge at K there will never be May skiing/riding except for the first few days in May even if they got 15 feet of snow in April! I'd like to be proven wrong though! :grin:  I wonder what it would be like if Pres Smith was still there, but he took the cash, dumped the resort and ran out of town as fast as he can! :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2011)

I wasn't suggesting a separate pass.  I was suggesting the mountain offer day ticket only skiing in May with season pass holders getting 50% off the walk up rate.  Cash flow is the issue that time of year.

I'm assuming you have lodging at Killington yes?

A.  So, you'd rather things stay as they are where Killington closes and you have to travel up to Jay for May turns and pay $40 and possibly lodging too if you don't want to make the 2+ hour commute.  

versus

B.  Killington staying open in May, you not having to pay for lodging at Jay.  Your lift ticket costs only $25.

Option B seems like a much better scenario to me.  Option C would be the Pres Smith / ASC way of business, but as noted, that isn't going to happen.  That's why I'd suggest a scenario like option B.  Perhaps if Season Pass holders were vocal enough about such a scenario, maybe K would stay open a couple more weekends if they realized they could get 500 season pass holders per weekend at $25 (25K) and another couple hundred non pass holders at $50 making the one lift operation of Superstar and minimal base lodge operation profitable.


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## Highway Star (Dec 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> If this issue is cash flow in May, then I think the best bet is for pass holders have their season pass expire on 5/1 and have to pay for day tickets. Throw the pass holders a bone by offering them 50% off window rates.
> 
> I think I've paid $50 to ski K late April the past couple of seasons. If I were a pass holder, I'd have no qualms with spending $25 a day if that's what it took to keep the mountain open a few more weekends.


 
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAA........but you're not actually a pass holder.  LOL.   :roll:

Get real.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAA........but you're not actually a pass holder.  LOL.   :roll:
> 
> Get real.



No, I'm not, but I am/have been a pass holder at other mountains and go and buy lift tickets at other areas that are still open when my "home" mountain closes. I've been skiing late season at Killington pretty much my whole life following the closure of where I've had a pass.

I'm just throwing an idea out there.  You guys don't care for it and that's fine.  That being what it is, you have no place to bitch any more about Killington closing May 1st.  You can either try and propose a solution to the management at K that they might find compelling or you can accept Killington's operation plan under Powdr for what it is or you can go buy a pass to Jay and ski there.

The funny thing in all of this, the most vocal critics of them all (you being one of them) continue to return to Killington every year.  None of you whiners have made the switch to other mountains that offer the late spring skiing you crave.


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## Highway Star (Dec 1, 2011)

They have not done well lately in the spring, not for lack of charging but lack of strategy. 

They did exceptionally well this November because they were able to draw visits from ticket buyers at other areas. Many people were skiing on the 2 for 1 coupons. This builds hype for the mountain among people who would not normally ski there and may create extra mid season visits.

Last few years they failed to have a compelling later spring product. They did somewhat well with some of the events, but many were duds so bad, due to weather, that they lost signifigant money. With the closing of bear and unreliably early closings of superstar, they are really in a circle of anti-hype on spring skiing that they can't seem to break out of.

Perhaps that will change this year. The umbrella deck bar will be a huge factor in that. They saw the hordes of people tailgating each spring in the parking lot that the deck is now built on. That will show a strong increase in April revenue for them, and may encourage them to operate longer.

Weather is a factor. They would like to hold outdoor events, but the weather is unreliable. Some events are weatherproof, like the old style BMMC; some are not, like the sunshine daydream or pond skimming. They need to avoid dependance on large outlay events that can be rained out. 

They need economical, grassroots-ish events every weekend, but they should mainly depend on the inherent draw of the skiing and scene.

Perhaps run a Thrusday-Monday, or Friday-Sunday schedule. 

Closing bear/needles so early is absurd, it severly cuts trail count and thus skier visits. They need to run at least the skye quad, and needles eye quad, and have the bear bathrooms open. Or even close the lot and lodge and have just porta johns.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> They have not done well lately in the spring, not for lack of charging but lack of strategy.
> 
> They did exceptionally well this November because they were able to draw visits from ticket buyers at other areas. Many people were skiing on the 2 for 1 coupons. This builds hype for the mountain among people who would not normally ski there and may create extra mid season visits.
> 
> ...



Great and agree on all of those things.

Do you think that those April potential revenue increases for K is what they need to convince them to continue into May?  From Nyberg's response, it sounds like May skiing is dead at K.  That's why I offered my solution for bringing cash to the table in May when so many of those who are skiing then are pass holders.  Pass holders = no cash.


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## Riverskier (Dec 1, 2011)

JimG. said:


> Me too...but then they would surely want the money upfront, early in the season. And then the issue of closing dates becomes a game of opinions.
> 
> Maybe they just don't want to deal with that anymore.



Just to be clear, I am not interested in buying another pass, or even an add on, effective 5/1. However, if SR (for example) decided to blow 20-30 feet of snow on White Heat like they did back in the 90's, and have season passes expire on 5/1, I would have no problem with that and would be happy to buy day tickets for the privlidge of getting to ski well into May.


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## Ski the Moguls (Dec 1, 2011)

All this talk about season pass holders does not make any sense to me. IMO, if Killington stayed open later, and with a better product, than the other mountains, then the day trippers from those other mountains would come and buy their day tickets. As proof, I offer this year's November skiing. When you are the only game in town you draw a lot of extra people - and they buy day tickets. When you shut down in Spring at the same time (or even earlier ) than the other mountains you get nothing.

Dear Mr. Nyberg, Please try staying open as long as possible, with as much terrain as possible. In May you will see the skiers come. Just like they do in November.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2011)

Both umbrella's up.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> Both umbrella's up.



And the framing on the bathrooms is coming along too...


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## JimG. (Dec 1, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> Just to be clear, I am not interested in buying another pass, or even an add on, effective 5/1. However, if SR (for example) decided to blow 20-30 feet of snow on White Heat like they did back in the 90's, and have season passes expire on 5/1, I would have no problem with that and would be happy to buy day tickets for the privlidge of getting to ski well into May.



Understood...but realize they will not sink the capital into blowing a glacier without the money upfront.
They won't take the chance that enough people will buy tickets after 5/1 to make it worth their while.
You're asking them to take a risk that ski businesses don't take anymore.

I completely agree with you on the concept and I would be a frequent customer in May.


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## bobbutts (Dec 1, 2011)

Sucks that May is officially a non-skiing month at K-Mart

These ideas about expiring passes and whatnot are not realistic.  This thread is in the bargaining stages of denial.


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## millerm277 (Dec 1, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> Closing bear/needles so early is absurd, it severly cuts trail count and thus skier visits. They need to run at least the skye quad, and needles eye quad, and have the bear bathrooms open. Or even close the lot and lodge and have just porta johns.



As a logical, easy measure, when you have made the decision to close Bear/Needles for the season, go take the fences down on the SS Crossover/Old GE, take some groomers and push snow up on it, and there you go. Now you can keep a significant portion of the trails open, at no additional operational cost besides slightly increased patrol/grooming needs.

That gives you the top half of everything from Skyeburst to Vertigo, all accessible off the Superstar Quad


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## mediamogul (Dec 1, 2011)

I personally am much more interested in half the mountain not closing early when there is still good coverage than it staying open through May on a few trails. Also I pay enough for my pass and don't want to pay more. Also it is a "season" pass and should be good for the duration of the season.


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## Highway Star (Dec 1, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> As a logical, easy measure, when you have made the decision to close Bear/Needles for the season, go take the fences down on the SS Crossover/Old GE, take some groomers and push snow up on it, and there you go. Now you can keep a significant portion of the trails open, at no additional operational cost besides slightly increased patrol/grooming needs.
> 
> That gives you the top half of everything from Skyeburst to Vertigo, all accessible off the Superstar Quad


 
They started doing that again last year, if not the year before. While that helps somewhat, it's not really the point. 

We're talking about mid April and closing Bear first weekend in April. If they are going to run Superstar, K-1, and Snowdon, they should also open Needles Eye and Bear, so that most of the mountain is open. When they close Bear and Needles, the trail count takes a nose dive and so do visits.

*Here is what they should run through the third weekend in April, and possibly through school April vacation week.*

Superstar
K-1
Snowdon Quad (long weekends only?)
Needles Eye Quad (long weekends only?)
Skyepeak Quad
Snowshed (or Ramshead) Quad (weekends only)

K-1 Lodge (KBL) with full services + Deck
Snowshed (or Ramshead) Lodge with bathrooms, tickets, basic food/snacks, weekends only.
Bear with bathrooms, tickets and (light) deck food/bev service, weekends only.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> *Here is what they should run through the third weekend in April, and possibly through school April vacation week.*
> 
> 
> Snowdon Quad (long weekends only?)



Hey don't touch my Snowdon chair, keep that baby cranking everyday...:smile:


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## skiadikt (Dec 1, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> As a logical, easy measure, when you have made the decision to close Bear/Needles for the season, go take the fences down on the SS Crossover/Old GE, take some groomers and push snow up on it, and there you go. Now you can keep a significant portion of the trails open, at no additional operational cost besides slightly increased patrol/grooming needs.
> 
> That gives you the top half of everything from Skyeburst to Vertigo, all accessible off the Superstar Quad



they did that last season and maybe the season before. don't expect it this year. from what i understand, they plan to plow the ss crossover as soon as they shut down the east side (bear/needles) to provide access to the summit to pour the concrete for the new peak lodge so they can open it for xmas. that was supposed to happen this summer but got derailed because of irene.

agree w/ hs. once you start shutting the mtn down, you send a message to peeps that the season is over and it's time to play golf. becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. last year the bear lot was packed for it's closing weekend (1st weekend of april). because of the dew tour there was more than enough snow to keep it open one more week. were they really gonna go from a full lot to nobody in a week. going back to the old daze you'd still have supe, k-chair and a snowdon lift open 1st weekend of may.


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## Newpylong (Dec 2, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> Hey don't touch my Snowdon chair, keep that baby cranking everyday...:smile:



Love the triple over the Quad too, think it will get yanked when the HSQ goes in Snowdon?


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## millerm277 (Dec 2, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Love the triple over the Quad too, think it will get yanked when the HSQ goes in Snowdon?



That is the oldest chairlift at Killington besides the Glades Triple....I wouldn't have your hopes up for it staying.


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## oakapple (Dec 2, 2011)

Ski the Moguls said:


> All this talk about season pass holders does not make any sense to me. IMO, if Killington stayed open later, and with a better product, than the other mountains, then the day trippers from those other mountains would come and buy their day tickets. As proof, I offer this year's November skiing. . . . In May you will see the skiers come. Just like they do in November.


One must be careful about the word "proof". In November, most of us haven't skied in over six months. We are eager to get back on the slopes as soon as possible. By May, most people (except a small percentage of real die-hards) have turned their attention to summer. My last time on skis last season was a week at Whistler-Blackcomb in mid-April. Anything I would have done at Killington after that would have been an anti-climax.

The old saying in the ski industry is that what brings out customers is not the conditions on the mountain, but the conditions in one's own back yard. In November, it's starting to get colder, and people say, "Where can I ski?" In May, it's starting to get warmer, and people say, "Where can I swim?"

It is entirely believable that the economics of May skiing would be totally different than the economics of November skiing, even if the snow conditions are identical. Whatever complaints you may have about POWDR, they are adept at chasing a dollar. If they say it is not profitable to remain open in May, I strongly suspect it is true, as it would surely be in their interest to be open if they could make money at it.


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## Ski the Moguls (Dec 2, 2011)

Ski the Moguls said:


> All this talk about season pass holders does not make any sense to me. IMO, if Killington stayed open later, and with a better product, than the other mountains, then the day trippers from those other mountains would come and buy their day tickets. As proof, I offer this year's November skiing. When you are the only game in town you draw a lot of extra people - and they buy day tickets. When you shut down in Spring at the same time (or even earlier ) than the other mountains you get nothing.
> 
> Dear Mr. Nyberg, Please try staying open as long as possible, with as much terrain as possible. In May you will see the skiers come. Just like they do in November.





oakapple said:


> One must be careful about the word "proof". In November, most of us haven't skied in over six months. We are eager to get back on the slopes as soon as possible. By May, most people (except a small percentage of real die-hards) have turned their attention to summer. My last time on skis last season was a week at Whistler-Blackcomb in mid-April. Anything I would have done at Killington after that would have been an anti-climax.
> 
> The old saying in the ski industry is that what brings out customers is not the conditions on the mountain, but the conditions in one's own back yard. In November, it's starting to get colder, and people say, "Where can I ski?" In May, it's starting to get warmer, and people say, "Where can I swim?"
> 
> It is entirely believable that the economics of May skiing would be totally different than the economics of November skiing, even if the snow conditions are identical. Whatever complaints you may have about POWDR, they are adept at chasing a dollar. If they say it is not profitable to remain open in May, I strongly suspect it is true, as it would surely be in their interest to be open if they could make money at it.



POWDR has not yet tried keeping Killington open far into May. There is no definitive proof of their position, either. The economics should make May more profitable than November because you do not need to pay for snowmaking in May.

POWDR says day tickets sales fall off at the end of the season. I say, *TRY* staying open later than the other mountains, when you are the only game in town. Sure there are less skiers, but they will all have to come to you!


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## oakapple (Dec 2, 2011)

Ski the Moguls said:


> POWDR has not yet tried keeping Killington open far into May. There is no definitive proof of their position, either. The economics should make May more profitable than November because you do not need to pay for snowmaking in May.
> 
> POWDR says day tickets sales fall off at the end of the season. I say, *TRY* staying open later than the other mountains, when you are the only game in town. Sure there are less skiers, but they will all have to come to you!



We have moved on a bit, from "November success proves May would succeed too"

to

"There is no definitive proof of their position, either."

The difference, though, is that they have the data; we don't.


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## Ski the Moguls (Dec 2, 2011)

oakapple said:


> We have moved on a bit, from "November success proves May would succeed too"
> 
> to
> 
> ...



A game of semantics, on an Internet forum, really? Well you sure showed me. :roll:

Would this statement be okay with you?
*I think November's success proves that skiing in May is worth trying again.*

And hopefully the new umbrella bar's orientation towards Superstar is an indication that they are thinking the same thing.


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## mediamogul (Dec 2, 2011)

Newpylong said:


> Love the triple over the Quad too, think it will get yanked when the HSQ goes in Snowdon?



It was a surprise that the south ridge triple got yanked. Obviously the triple will be replaced in the future. Im not a huge fan of snowdon having a hsq but on the bright side at least the south ridge will get the quad when its removed.


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## Highway Star (Dec 3, 2011)

millerm277 said:


> That is the oldest chairlift at Killington besides the Glades Triple....I wouldn't have your hopes up for it staying.



Lol.  Rode up the gondi with some woman who tried to tell me the SRT was the oldest lift on the mountain before it was removed, and the ST was the oldest.  Said it was told to her in training by the mountain.  Riiight.


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## MadPadraic (Dec 3, 2011)

I've never been to Killington before mid April.


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