# Economy Slowing Again



## Puck it (Jun 4, 2012)

Just an FYI.  My company just announced a shutdown for July 4th.  Not good news for the economy.  We have been seeing orders being pushed out for machines, even in Asia.  Not a good sign.  My company is ususally the first to see slowdowns.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2012)

I've read rumors over the past week that JP Morgan Chase is preparing for another Lehman like disaster in the coming months.


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## o3jeff (Jun 4, 2012)

Whats your field of work?


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## riverc0il (Jun 4, 2012)

What is even worse for the economy than a slow down of orders is the internet buzzing with talk of a slow down. These economic self fulfilling prophecies are amazing to comprehend. I've been listening to the Euro news and then I see this and then I see DHS suggest JPMC could be in trouble. All that makes me start thinking about putting more away in savings "just in case" (not saying I am going to until I really start things getting bad). Multiply that times the entire population of the country with disposable income and it is amazing to contemplate what just a few news stories and internet buzz can do.

Unfortunately, we all have to pay for the many (and the corporations that enabled them) that lived beyond their means during the past dozen years. And now we'll all have to pay for some Euro governments that took on too much debt assuming the good times would never end.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 4, 2012)

OK here's my take : The economy and personal debt is in free fall and has  has been for some time .

 The economic razzle dazzle games that have been played by both the private and public sectors coupled with the outrageous nonsense proffered by Bennie and the FEDS   has  artificiallly buttressed the data for the past  several years. The stock market simply is too volatile and subject to manipulation and mass psychology now . During the the period 1982 - about mid  'oo's it was a reasonable strategy for many now it is a sucker's bet . especially for anyone within a decade of retirement or those in retirement . its fine to buy in but make sure you are balanced and have ample reserve of safe resources .

This scenario is not a solid foundation upon which to project anything of rational econometric modeling INHO


the D word will never enter into the lexicon yet the situation is dire


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## Puck it (Jun 4, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Whats your field of work?



Physicist for a semiconductor equipment, so when chipmakers see a slowdown in orders. We are at the front of the line.  Very cyclic business but in the last few years we have been more cyclic.


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## riverc0il (Jun 4, 2012)

Warp Daddy said:


> the D word will never enter into the lexicon yet the situation is dire


Dire? DIre is Spain and Greece.

The stock market is not the economy. People put too much, um, stock in the stock market. It is important but it isn't the end all be all. It puzzles me why whether the market is either up or down is even reported in the news. If you are an investor trading daily or invested in specific stocks, you already know what is going on because you are following it. If you are invested in a 401k or mutual funds, then you are in it for the long term (or you SHOULD be) so what the stock market does is irrelevant on a yearly basis, let alone a daily basis. If you are retiring soon, well, you really shouldn't be in stocks and if you're retiring in a few years, you shouldn't have much left in stocks except enough to hopefully offset inflation. 

What is going to drive the economy diving again is people stop spending, businesses stop selling, businesses stop spending, and jobs get eliminated... further perpetuating the cycle. If the banks tighten up on lending because of problems in Europe, that further decreases spending and hurts more. None of this is caused by the stock market though of course the stock market will be effected and could effect those with poor investment choices. Market doom and gloom is a joke. What is happening in Europe though is pretty crazy.


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## JimG. (Jun 4, 2012)

Buy gold.


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## Nick (Jun 5, 2012)

Maybe this sounds unpatriotic which isn't the case at all, I love the USA and think we live in the greatest nation on the earth, but broader than that there has yet to be in the history of humankind a civilization that has endured for perpetuity. They all come and go, _eventually_. I think technology could potentially play a huge role in the next evolution of human governance, many of the structures we see in the world (states, nations) are based on location and the historical difficulty it has been to communicate quickly. With that changing so rapidly, I think the notion of borders becomes more endangered. 

I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. I just think it's a thing. You can't underestimate the ability for someone in any corner of the globe to communicate instantly with someone on some other corner of the globe.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2012)

I think our government very much agrees with you Nick, hence why we have bases on every corner of the globe.  


Now, regarding the economy, I think a painful, but good first step would be to re-establish the gold standard.  IMO it would offer better long term economic stability with fewer booms and busts.


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## riverc0il (Jun 5, 2012)

It seems en vogue to favor a return to the gold standard whenever there is an economic downturn. I think it is a lot easier for folks to comprehend a gold standard than fiat. Gold doesn't make sense to me for abstract reasons. My biggest concern against it is that it limits economic growth. So to advocate for the gold standard, you need to look around at all your toys and understand that we might not have them right now with a gold standard. Or at least, they would have and would develop much more slowly since economic growth drives tech. Sure, fear the boom and bust, but much of that has to do with other factors besides currency system. If we had better regulation of the banking sector, for example, the growth would not have boomed out of control, poor people would not have bought crazy ARMs doomed to default, and banks would not have set a bust up. 100% Free market is an awesome thought in theory but a failure in practice. If you regulate (and keep regulating as new devious "products" are created to side step the fail safes), then the boom/busts won't happen.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2012)

Well, you can't print gold and it seems to me that apt comparison of printing money when you got a problem is like feeding the addiction of a drug addict instead of fixing the problem.  You print some money to temporarily solve a problem/addiction, but you create a bigger problem down the road that requires even more stimulus to achieve a fix.

Regarding greater regulations, how can that happen when the "Fed" are the banks themselves?  They're never going to write policy that could harm short term profits and devalue their stocks.  

It's obviously a very complex problem that I am no where near smart enough to know all the answers, but from what I do know, I have little faith in our current Fed pulling the purse strings and relying on fiat as the benchmark.  Far too much room for corruption and manipulation.

You can say that such concepts will restrict economic growth, but when the growth isn't real, what does it matter?


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 6, 2012)

Very GOOD discussion between you two!! Would have loved to have you both in one of my classes!!

That said ,you are both actually not only making fine points in the analysis but ALSO hitting the nub of the issue as convoluted and occluded as it has become . 

As you undoubtedly know economic thinkers have been struggling on this  VERY question for centuries

 Given the the state of geo-politics and yes even inter-locking directorates that often occur between and among the sectors and major rain-makers across the global economy  TODAY ,it is apparent that the WILL  of the FED/SEC to OBJECTIVELY regulate is seriously compromised by ANY number of these factors . 

Without sounding like some extreme conspiracy theorist the web of "connectedness" has completely acellerated the issue . When you think of the crazy derivatives that were bundled without either underestanding them coupled with the moronic rapid expansion of credit/mortgages to those with compromised FICO scores and the various "bubbles" that resulted it is clear that the web of inter-connectedness is driving this with little concern for downside effects.

I am NOT even going to go into  foreign policy here because the last 10 yrs speaks for itself 


So what is the answer :  H',mm lets think about that one for a minute !!  Both arguments make some grains for reason yet each has its flaws as you two pointed out . So in effect it is a moving target and the willof the voters is going to be measured once again this fall so we'll see .

 I'm betting on some tweaking BUT NO REAL systemic change


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## hammer (Jun 6, 2012)

Just curious...when was the last time we had an economy that was growing based on real factors and not those inflated by things like real estate price bubbles?  And sorry if I oversimplify things, I'm just a lowly engineer...


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## Mpdsnowman (Jun 6, 2012)

I never bought the farce that the economy was getting better in the first place. I own two small businesses...I can tell lol...

The job numbers that came out last week should not have been a shock to anyone.

My suggestion is real simple....take your stocks and make them less risky for the next 5 years. That way the hit will not be so bad.  That way what you gained since January will not be wiped out completely in May.

To trust the stock market is a bad move.
To trust the media and its reporting of the economy is a bad move.
To trust any politician (particularly now with the election) when they speak of what they will do...or continue to do is a bad move...


But to trust yourself based on your personal life and within its boundaries...thats the only right move at this juncture..


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## speden (Jun 6, 2012)

I think the trouble with a gold standard is that it prevents the value of a currency from floating.  This is what is killing Greece.  The Euro is like a gold standard for them since the value of the Euro doesn't float based on the Greek economy.  So when the Greek economy is weak, they can't reduce the value of the Euro to reduce wages and increase exports.  Instead they just have to keep borrowing money and head for default.  People will riot if you try to cut their benefits and wages, but won't riot if you devalue the currency.  So floating currencies are what make a global economy work.

I think the U.S. economy is doing pretty well compared to the rest of the world.  We are still sending a lot of our wealth overseas to buy oil and manufactured goods.  The higher car mileage standards and greater use of natural gas should help reduce the amount of foreign oil we buy over the next decade.  And I think the migration of manufacturing jobs to what used to be cheap labor in the far east has slowed down considerably.  Another problem is excessive executive pay with the corrupt board system is killing middle class income and jobs.  I'd like the see the feds address that corruption, but unfortunately most of the politicians are for sale so they won't act.

There are still some lean years ahead for the U.S. but my guess is things will slowly improve over time.  If Europe would hurry up and get Greece and other weak players out of the Euro currency, that would help things considerably.


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## legalskier (Jun 6, 2012)

*Friday’s Economic Data Dump Wasn’t All Bad News*
_...Macroeconomic Advisers, which plugs every bit of new incoming data into its existing model and continually updates its projections, said today that, after the flurry of data this week, it believes *the U.S. economy is growing at a 2.4 percent rate in the current quarter*. That's faster than the rate of growth in the first quarter...._
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daniel-gross/friday-economic-data-dump-wasn-t-bad-news-180914715.html

Personal income up.
Spending up. 
Auto manufacturing way up.
Housing activity up.
Construction spending up
...Yet the media focuses on the poor jobs number.






The silver lining.


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## mlctvt (Jun 6, 2012)

Interesting I'm getting the opposite take from our customers.  I work for contract manufacurer and two of our largest customesr manufacture instruments for the semiconductor manufacturers. Both of these customers are doing extremely well this year,  much improvmenet over the last few years. I just received very large order from both of them. 
Talking to our other industrial customers most are seeing growth this year, many in the double digits.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 6, 2012)

This on  a broad base may  at best a jobless recovery . There ARE  "winners" in the various sectors of the economy, but not all boats are rising on that . The Question seems to be when will  real GNP growth unbuttressed by  interest rate fluctuations to the lowest levels  in history be able to  SUSTAIN broad based employment across all sectors  ? 

 Many job hunters  have foregone searching while others have been impacted by the slippage of FTE 's  with the imbalance coming in with an increasing emphasis on PART time employment  less than FULLTIME employment .  

The  hot sectors cited "may possibly " be an anomaly  reflective of pent up demand that resulted from conservative  business plans of recent times . Just dealing with the Macro level level


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## dmc (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm doing great financially...
All my friends are working..  
My house is almost paid for..   
I have no debt except a mortgage.. 
I'm back to giving a lot to charity...
My 401k - although a bit flat now is doing well..

But from where I sit - things are doing well..  The company I work for is kicking ass and can't hire people quick enough..     
I can't find enough people to staff IT jobs around the country and it kills me. We are moving our outsourcing from India to the Philippines.  Indians want too much $ now..

I know construction is suffering..  But you had to see the construction slowdown coming... I did and I don't even work in construction. 

We need people to learn for the jobs of the future..   
While we were sending our kids to wars other countries were preparing their youth for the future.

The recovery is slow...  But I have patients and believe that it is happening the correct way..   It may not put people back into McMansions but it doing well for me now..

PS: My year hiatus is over..  But don't try to drag me into any AZ drama...  Not going to happen... Peace y'all... Until next time!


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## hammer (Jun 6, 2012)

dmc said:


> I'm doing great financially...
> All my friends are working..
> My house is almost paid for..
> I have no debt except a mortgage..
> ...


Just wondering how specific your company is on qualifications for folks in the US...one of the problems with jobs is that it seems like many companies are looking for the perfect employee who needs no training whatsoever.

What ever happened to the approach of hiring a smart capable person and making a reasonable investment in training?

I think the job situation is bad because most companies are finding out that even though they could hire they are managing with fewer people...and that makes a big difference in costs.


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## dmc (Jun 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> Just wondering how specific your company is on qualifications for folks in the US...one of the problems with jobs is that it seems like many companies are looking for the perfect employee who needs no training whatsoever.
> 
> What ever happened to the approach of hiring a smart capable person and making a reasonable investment in training?
> 
> I think the job situation is bad because most companies are finding out that even though they could hire they are managing with fewer people...and that makes a big difference in costs.



We hire smart capable people with basic IT Database skills and send them to training and continue training....   I've hired a few people I know that weren't exactly right technically but we've trained them to be awesome!

We are in colleges - giving out equipment to them so they can teach IT Database skills...
We aren't looking for the perfect person..  We just need people that know the basics and can be trained..

the world is changing fast..  It's like when we went from an agricultural society to a manufacturing society..   We are now moving into a hi tech society..


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## Puck it (Jun 6, 2012)

Where have you been? Endor?


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## dmc (Jun 6, 2012)

Puck it said:


> Where have you been? Endor?



You comments don't concern me anymore - barely worth it.   

Have a great day!


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## Nick (Jun 6, 2012)

dmc said:


> PS: My year hiatus is over..  But don't try to drag me into any AZ drama...  Not going to happen... Peace y'all... Until next time!



Welcome back :lol:


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## Geoff (Jun 6, 2012)

dmc said:


> We are moving our outsourcing from India to the Philippines.  Indians want too much $ now..



This highlights the root cause structural problem with the economy.   If you do a job that can be outsourced and done cheaper elsewhere, you either take a massive pay cut or your job vaporizes.   I'd estimate that in the recession, 10% of the total jobs were shed, pushed offshore, and will never return.   If you don't have job skills that create the demand to pay you 4x what some guy in Shanghai is getting, you're out of luck.


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## Puck it (Jun 6, 2012)

dmc said:


> You comments don't concern me anymore - barely worth it.
> 
> Have a great day!



A kinder and gentler dmc!  Ok, what gives? Meds?


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## snoseek (Jun 6, 2012)

DMC back, nice!

I focus on the Micro (me) and pay almost no attention to the rest. To remain working is not an issue, my work cannot be outsourced. My financial needs are pretty low at the moment, I hope to keep it that way.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2012)

dmc said:


> I'm doing great financially...
> All my friends are working..
> My house is almost paid for..
> I have no debt except a mortgage..
> ...


Couldn't care less what your doing.

I'm well beyond that stage.

Nothing like a pat on the back from yourself heh


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Couldn't care less what your doing.
> 
> I'm well beyond that stage.
> 
> Nothing like a pat on the back from yourself heh




Are you in construction?
Yeah - I'm proud of what I've accomplished..  At least I don't put it in my "sig".

My point is...  Things are not as bad as people want us to believe..  Many people are prospering.  But we don't really hear about that.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

snoseek said:


> DMC back, nice!
> 
> I focus on the Micro (me) and pay almost no attention to the rest. To remain working is not an issue, my work cannot be outsourced. My financial needs are pretty low at the moment, I hope to keep it that way.




Thats the way to do it... create your own economy.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

Geoff said:


> This highlights the root cause structural problem with the economy.   If you do a job that can be outsourced and done cheaper elsewhere, you either take a massive pay cut or your job vaporizes.   I'd estimate that in the recession, 10% of the total jobs were shed, pushed offshore, and will never return.   If you don't have job skills that create the demand to pay you 4x what some guy in Shanghai is getting, you're out of luck.



But we TRY to staff from the US first.
And we can't find the people to do the jobs.   We bring the jobs back when we find people to take them here..

My AT&T job went to India in 1999..   And now that "function" is done by an AT&T employee in Georgia.  So jobs do come back..  Not saying all..


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## Rushski (Jun 7, 2012)

Not to get political, but the numbers a certain incumbent is highlighting lately are skewed and not truly representative of what's going on...  Created jobs Vs. lost jobs would be a better graph.  

I know people on both the proffessional side and working class side who have never had trouble getting or holiding jobs that certainly are now.  Plus New England in general is a pretty solid job market compared to most of the country.  

Layoffs, hiring freezes, pay cuts, few low end jobs and little opportunities for new grads show me an absolute issue with the economy.

And I'm not even mentioning all the stores - small and large going out of business.


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## ScottySkis (Jun 7, 2012)

Rushski said:


> Not to get political, but the numbers a certain incumbent is highlighting lately are skewed and not truly representative of what's going on...  Created jobs Vs. lost jobs would be a better graph.
> 
> I know people on both the proffessional side and working class side who have never had trouble getting or holiding jobs that certainly are now.  Plus New England in general is a pretty solid job market compared to most of the country.
> 
> ...



Well my boss is opening up his 4 high fashion retail store in NYC but he has saved money by no raises since economy starting crashing few years ago. I'm glad that he got money but i think he should give some long term retirement pay but nothing actually i get less vacation time now then when i started at this job 6 in half years ago.                                    DMC glad your back to posting even if i like the better catskill hill lol.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

Rushski said:


> Layoffs, hiring freezes, pay cuts, few low end jobs and little opportunities for new grads show me an absolute issue with the economy.



What I'm saying is college students need to make a move to the skills that are part of this new economy..  

Liberal Arts? no...  HiTech/IT yes!!! 

We need to start filling the new jobs out there with Americans!  There's a shtiload of jobs available in IT/HiTech...   Go get them!!!  Prosper!!!

There's a ton of news articles about this..
http://wraltechwire.com/business/tech_wire/opinion/blogpost/11156118/.  
http://www.cnbc.com/id/46902840
http://www.cnbc.com/id/46708698/Jobs_Employers_Can_t_Fill
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/04/help-wanted-automakers-cant-fill-all-the-jobs/


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

Scotty said:


> DMC glad your back to posting even if i like the better catskill hill lol.



All mountains are great and serve a purpose to those that enjoy them..


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## Geoff (Jun 7, 2012)

Puck it said:


> Where have you been? Endor?



DMC was on the Dagobah System getting IT training from Yoda.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

Geoff said:


> DMC was on the Dagobah System getting IT training from Yoda.



I'm self trained and have reinvented my career a few times to keep up with the changing world...  I'm a big fan on mentoring.


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## Geoff (Jun 7, 2012)

dmc said:


> What I'm saying is college students need to make a move to the skills that are part of this new economy..
> 
> Liberal Arts? no...  HiTech/IT yes!!!
> 
> ...



The problem with high tech is that you need to be born with the aptitude to handle the work.  If you're bright enough to handle the work, there are other occupations that pay a heck of a lot better.   If you look at the UK where doctors, lawyers, and bankers aren't so highly paid, you see a lot more bright Brits in the engineering professions.

There are other issues...  Talented children underachieving in school so they never get the essential background needed for high tech.   Lousy work ethic and sense of entitlement from growing up too damned affluent.   The US high tech labor pool is littered with poor-performing "C" players and there simply aren't all that many "A" players.   In the downturn four years ago, a lot of those "C" players went unemployed and are still out of work or underemployed.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

IT is just one place that people are needed..  We need to get our people up to speed - eliminating teachers is not going to help us out...

http://wraltechwire.com/business/tech_wire/opinion/blogpost/11156118/ 



> Here are the top 10 skill sets employers say they have trouble finding:
> 
> Skilled Trades
> Engineers
> ...


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## hammer (Jun 7, 2012)

dmc said:


> What I'm saying is college students need to make a move to the skills that are part of this new economy..
> 
> Liberal Arts? no...  HiTech/IT yes!!!
> 
> ...



IMO it's not just about getting the right degree or skill set...it's about employers who want the ideal candidate and are holding out because they can.

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/04/154268375/unemployment-followup

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...any-is-hiring/2012/06/06/gJQAtnXdIV_blog.html

Unfortunately I think it will have to get worse before it gets better...


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

Anybody that relies on the internet job boards to find jobs is an not going to find one very easily...  sorry...
The best jobs are the ones your find through people...  With MAYBE LinkedIn as an exception..  I've found people jobs using my contacts on LinkedIn..

I see both sides..  But again - from where I sit - we offer a good salary and have jobs available.  And we're willing to train people up.  Because we want to succeed as a company.


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## hammer (Jun 7, 2012)

dmc said:


> Anybody that relies on the internet job boards to find jobs is an not going to find one very easily...  sorry...
> The best jobs are the ones your find through people...  With MAYBE LinkedIn as an exception..  I've found people jobs using my contacts on LinkedIn..
> 
> I see both sides..  But again - from where I sit - we offer a good salary and have jobs available.  And we're willing to train people up.  Because we want to succeed as a company.


AFAIK the company I work for is the same way, we'd rather get the right people who may not match the specific skill set than someone who just looks good on a resume.  Then again, the company is small, established, and privately-held, and we don't have HR people or software.

Hear you on the networking aspect of the job search.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2012)

dmc said:


> What I'm saying is college students need to make a move to the skills that are part of this new economy..
> 
> Liberal Arts? no...  HiTech/IT yes!!!





dmc said:


> I'm self trained and have reinvented my career a few times to keep up with the changing world... .



Not just college students, but adults need to make that move and reinvent themselves like you have.

It's not always easy to do.  I had a decent career in the F&B/hospitality industry.  I wasn't raking it in, but I was comfortable.  There was still room for growth for me in that field, but it's a pretty volatile business.  Made the decision to go back to go school last fall to transition into a much more stable industry (medical).   Now I'm a 36 year old college student again struggling to get by and will be broke as hell for the next two years.  But, when I finish, I will have positioned myself into a field where I know that both the job prospects and room for growth will be stable for the rest of my life even during economic downturns.


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## drjeff (Jun 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> AFAIK the company I work for is the same way, we'd rather get the right people who may not match the specific skill set than someone who just looks good on a resume.  Then again, the company is small, established, and privately-held, and we don't have HR people or software.
> 
> Hear you on the networking aspect of the job search.



There is totally that "X factor" with respect to that person that has the right attitude and commitment but not the "perfect" skill set.  Much easier to train a person to that skill set than have to develop that attitude and commitment IMHO.

While there sure are plenty of people out there these days that do have that attitude and commitment, there also seems to be more and more people that either don't have it, or want to do those little extra things that seperates one from another.  As the old saying goes, and one that my business partner and myself keep using with our employees, "The difference between extraordinary and ordinary is EXTRA"


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

hammer said:


> AFAIK the company I work for is the same way, we'd rather get the right people who may not match the specific skill set than someone who just looks good on a resume.  Then again, the company is small, established, and privately-held, and we don't have HR people or software.
> 
> Hear you on the networking aspect of the job search.



I don't trust resume's as far as I can throw them...
I'll look at a resume' and get on the phone with the person..  If it plays out then I'll interview.
But I've caught a ton of people in lies on resume's...

We're pretty big - we have HR and stuff..  I get an email a day for HR looking for candidates..  It's crazy...


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## drjeff (Jun 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Not just college students, but adults need to make that move and reinvent themselves like you have.
> 
> It's not always easy to do.  I had a decent career in the F&B/hospitality industry.  I wasn't raking it in, but I was comfortable.  There was still room for growth for me in that field, but it's a pretty volatile business.  Made the decision to go back to go school last fall to transition into a much more stable industry (medical).   Now I'm a 36 year old college student again struggling to get by and will be broke as hell for the next two years.  But, when I finish, I will have positioned myself into a field where I know that both the job prospects and room for growth will be stable for the rest of my life even during economic downturns.



And DHS, I bet that that real world experience that you're bringing to school right now makes you a far better student than the post high school crowd. Since you likely now realize more than ever the true value that education is bringing you.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Not just college students, but adults need to make that move and reinvent themselves like you have.
> 
> It's not always easy to do.  I had a decent career in the F&B/hospitality industry.  I wasn't raking it in, but I was comfortable.  There was still room for growth for me in that field, but it's a pretty volatile business.  Made the decision to go back to go school last fall to transition into a much more stable industry (medical).   Now I'm a 36 year old college student again struggling to get by and will be broke as hell for the next two years.  But, when I finish, I will have positioned myself into a field where I know that both the job prospects and room for growth will be stable for the rest of my life even during economic downturns.



Yup...  I've to do it a couple times in the last decade..

Suffering is part of life(been studying Buddhism lately)..  McMansions are a thing of the past..  Simplify your life and try something different..  And yes - not always easy..  It may require a move or cash for school.. When I was unemployed after 911 I took some classes that were part of my unemployment compensation.

Good for you reinventing yourself!   You'll succeed and prosper!  

Cracks me up that all these people talk about taking control of your own life as far as healthcare ,Social Security and other stuff goes..  But never saw the downturn coming or didn't prepare for it and all they do is bitch...  Go out and change your life!!!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2012)

drjeff said:


> And DHS, I bet that that real world experience that you're bringing to school right now makes you a far better student than the post high school crowd. Since you likely now realize more than ever the true value that education is bringing you.



3.92 GPA thus far.  

Looking back, my effort getting my Bachelors at UVM was pretty embarrassing.  Spent more time on the slopes at Stowe and catching Phish shows than I did in the classroom.

Being broke, working nights and weekends and hardly ever seeing my wife completely sucks.  However, going back to school is BY FAR the most rewarding thing I've ever done for myself.


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## Nick (Jun 7, 2012)

It's very true. I went and got my MBA right out of college and while I was working full time I can certainly see how I would have been able to apply that knowledge or comprehend it more if I were doing it today after a decade in the full time  workforce.


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## dmc (Jun 7, 2012)

I never finished college..  I couldn't afford it at the time..

I was mentored at AT&T and learned all about data processing and computers...  Now I just take classes and seminars...


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Not just college students, but adults need to make that move and reinvent themselves like you have.
> 
> It's not always easy to do.  I had a decent career in the F&B/hospitality industry.  I wasn't raking it in, but I was comfortable.  There was still room for growth for me in that field, but it's a pretty volatile business.  Made the decision to go back to go school last fall to transition into a much more stable industry (medical).   Now I'm a 36 year old college student again struggling to get by and will be broke as hell for the next two years.  But, when I finish, I will have positioned myself into a field where I know that both the job prospects and room for growth will be stable for the rest of my life even during economic downturns.



Nice !! What are u studying?


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes in a former life as a Dean of Lifelong Learningand Non traditional  education at a Technically oriented institution with multiple programs  in a variety of Health Care , Engineering technologies , IT, Business  as well as Lib arts our finest students were adults . Their focus , dedication , desire and willingness to go the EXTRA mile for both their own self improvement as well as BALANCING multiple responsibilities   often resulted in spectacular personal growth and career enrichment .

Like many of you i did my Undergrad degree as a traditionally aged student and loved to engage in all the nonsense that often occurs then . However when i finished my masters i was 38 and the doctoral program brought me well into my 40's while my wife and 2 kids were ALL in collegeg AT THE SAME TIME  and my wife and i were working FULLTIME in addition.

So i empathesize with the sacrifices that you are making DHS -- but the rewards are worth the journey  on MANY levels -- Good luck

 and OH   DMC -- u are RIGHT on target about SIMPLIFYING your life , separating wants from needs and  focusing on building that which lasts in life rather than focusing on the never-ending quest for STUFF . And the concept of reintventing oneself is key -------- . The ole far eastern philosophy of the guru dipping his foot into the river as an analogy for life rings true when he uttered " the River is NEVER the same TWICE : the same with life . The fierce adherence to the status quo by some is akin to regression


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## ctenidae (Jun 7, 2012)

The headline to this thread would seem to implay that the economy had sped up at some point. I submit that it just stopped slowing down as much. Rate of change of the rate of change, and all that.

I have a real problem with the complaints about "the system" causing problems. Mostly because people tend to point to the wrong system. There's a real problem with a social system that encourages nothing but book learing for 21 years, with a massive dose of over-scheduling and over-stimulation and over-dependance, followed by a push to get married, have kids, buy a house, and submit as soon as possible to wage slavery. 

I went to school, realized I didn't know jack-all (and was supposed to go teach in high school- teach what, I ask you? What the hell did I know?). So, I went out and learned some stuff. How to fend for myself. How to travel to different states, countries, and hemispheres. How to get along as a fully functioning adaptable human being. Then I went back to school, taking more hours than full time students while working full time. Then I got my MBA, while working full time. I got married in there, too, and eventually bought a house. Then a great opportunity came up, and I was nimble enough to take advantage of it. Sold the house, moved, had a kid, and am now generally living large. Some of the costs are high, and I recognize that. I also recognize, and intend for them to be, relatively short lived.

I love my wife, my kid is great (so far), my job is secure, I have a nice car, a nice house, and a nice boat. My dog doesn't have fleas, and I get to spend a decent amount of time enjoying the little things. I totally get dmc's self-back-patting, because I completely agree with him. While we have slightly different styles, he's got his shit wired straight and knows what he wants and how to keep it. 

Too many people are trapped in lives they weren't creative enough to avoid. I feel sorry for them, and hope they can figure out how to change it. But as soon as the "99%"  say that I'm wrong for having figured shit out myself and gotten to where I am on my own, I lose sympathy very very quickly. 

On topic, returning to the gold standard won't help fix wage slavery. Education, freedom, and creativity will. Unfortunately, floating currency is better for that than gold.


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## riverc0il (Jun 7, 2012)

Geoff said:


> This highlights the root cause structural problem with the economy.   If you do a job that can be outsourced and done cheaper elsewhere, you either take a massive pay cut or your job vaporizes.   I'd estimate that in the recession, 10% of the total jobs were shed, pushed offshore, and will never return.   If you don't have job skills that create the demand to pay you 4x what some guy in Shanghai is getting, you're out of luck.


From where I stand, a lot of job loss during the current recession was due to organizations not replacing workers that retire or quit. In other words, jobs didn't go away, they were completely eliminated. Of course, there were industries hit by fewer orders and decreased demand. Again, jobs gone not moved else where.

Sure, outsourcing is happening. But consumers benefit with better products at lower prices. We need two things here: A) businesses that innovate and create new products that customers want and B) a workforce ready to change and shift with demand. 

I am still STUNNED when I hear reports that skilled IT workers are in high demand right now. STUNNED!!! Last I heard, all the IT jobs got shipped off to Asia. But for some reason, we have a shortage now. What's up with that? 

It is complex. But the whole anti-outsourcing thing is short sighted.


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## riverc0il (Jun 7, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> My dog doesn't have fleas


And that is the most important thing right there. Don't even want to think about how much life would suck if the dog had fleas.

I agree with your critique of the social system/structure. My own background: no one ever really sat me down and said this is how it is. I figured so much out on my own. Maybe I would not have listened. Who knows.


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## SkiFanE (Jun 7, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> From where I stand, a lot of job loss during the current recession was due to organizations not replacing workers that retire or quit. In other words, jobs didn't go away, they were completely eliminated. Of course, there were industries hit by fewer orders and decreased demand. Again, jobs gone not moved else where.
> 
> Sure, outsourcing is happening. But consumers benefit with better products at lower prices. We need two things here: A) businesses that innovate and create new products that customers want and B) a workforce ready to change and shift with demand.
> 
> ...



I think "skilled" is the key.  I think there are some skills that are a dime a dozen, others that are niche-y and harder to fill.

I have to say...sometimes my fellow IT employees make me want to scream.  Me?  My company pays me, I do what they ask.  Sure, I may bitch about the direction a job is going (will never ever ever support a system unless I'm desperate beyond imagination), so I make a change to something else that will enhance my skills.  Some just bitch and moan and let their skills get stale.  My last project was canned nearly 2 months ago, worked out in my favor b/c support was in my future, so would have needed to make a change anyway.  Only contractors were let go, rest of us are being absorbed into other budgets, etc.  The bitching is endless...my god people.  STFU!  You have a job, and in the end it will be better.  Me?  Turns out I'm going to become an Ontologist.  No...not looking into strange body cavaties...but categorizing and doing other fancy things with medical data and terminology.  Sounds like a yawner, eh?  Well....I'm gonna be in fucking demand!!!  My peers have PhDs and fancy letters.  Me..a mediocre BA, lol.  This is a new wave of medical IT and I'm in the forefront.  WHY?   Because I can freaking adapt and go with the flow and see beyond my current day at work.  Some people just don't/can't/won't and see nothing but bad from change.  Carpe Diem...stop the bitching and just take control.  Don't let the company control you...think about what is marketable, where your field is going, what your job looks like in a year, your industry...read read read about your field.  Don't be complacent.  

Oh...my company is installing a $600m (although internally expected to be $1b) computer system over the next 5 years...I seem to be insulated from economic fluctations, thank goodness.  Healthcare................people live longer with more expensive treatments, and we all feel every American deserves them........think about what that means to the economy.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2012)

Warp Daddy said:


> Nice !! What are u studying?



Getting an Associates in Radiologic Technology.  It's a two year program that I've extended to three as I need to work full time to pay the mortgage and I'm also paying as I go to avoid student loan debt.  It's an extremely intense program that actually crams as much school as a four year degree into two years (my case three). 75% of the time is spent right in the hospital, the rest in the classroom.  The program is one of the most competitive and well respected in the state of Massachusetts.  17 students admitted each year from over 250 applicants.  Even during this recession, the job placement has been 95% within 6 months of graduation.  

The five year goal is to graduate and then spend a few years in the hospital expanding my knowledge into more advanced forms of medical imaging; CT, MRI, Nuclear.  During that time I will network and learn the buying culture in hospitals and combine that experience with my sales background to move into medical device sales.   I had actually been looking to get into device sales for a while and have had a couple of employment opportunities, but decided that getting an education in the field is the safer long term decision.  With an aging population, the job skills I am developing will always be in demand in hospitals. If need be I will be able to fall back on that when recessions hit and there are budget freezes on capital purchases at hospitals resulting in layoffs by the equipment manufacturers.


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## SkiFanE (Jun 8, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Getting an Associates in Radiologic Technology.  It's a two year program that I've extended to three as I need to work full time to pay the mortgage and I'm also paying as I go to avoid student loan debt.  It's an extremely intense program that actually crams as much school as a four year degree into two years (my case three). 75% of the time is spent right in the hospital, the rest in the classroom.  The program is one of the most competitive and well respected in the state of Massachusetts.  17 students admitted each year from over 250 applicants.  Even during this recession, the job placement has been 95% within 6 months of graduation.
> 
> The five year goal is to graduate and then spend a few years in the hospital expanding my knowledge into more advanced forms of medical imaging; CT, MRI, Nuclear.  During that time I will network and learn the buying culture in hospitals and combine that experience with my sales background to move into medical device sales.   I had actually been looking to get into device sales for a while and have had a couple of employment opportunities, but decided that getting an education in the field is the safer long term decision.  With an aging population, the job skills I am developing will always be in demand in hospitals. If need be I will be able to fall back on that when recessions hit and there are budget freezes on capital purchases at hospitals resulting in layoffs by the equipment manufacturers.



Good plan.  Nothing beats actually working for a hospital as far as experience and skills.  You just have to do it.  My field is always looking for people, but unless you have direct clinical experience/knowlege it's real hard to get into, even if you have 10 years of other industry experience (I literally tripped into my field through a temp secretary job after college lol).  You won't regret it - if you don't go in the direction you think right now, there are plenty of other paths.  My sis-in-law is in medical device sales, transferred from Pharm.  She says it's easiest to get into surgical type sales jobs, but her inability to handle the OR (squeamish) limited her ability to move from PHarm, but she did land one, consumables for blood banks.  Also have a friend that was an US tech and moved into selling them, she also picks up occasional per diem shifts as an US tech.


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## Puck it (Jul 18, 2012)

It is definitely slowing.  Told you so!


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