# Celcius 0



## Stephen (Jun 28, 2004)

So, what scenes would you include in the true version of a 9/11 movie?

Some of my thoughts:

- All 4 beheadings. (thus far)
- Both planes hitting the towers
- The man and woman holding hands as they jump from the tower
- The contractor's bodies being burned, mutilated and hung by their genitals from a bridge.
- The mass graves of the Iraqis who were gassed by Saddam.
- Michael Moore hobnobbing with the elite of the world at Cannes and in Hollywood at the expense of all of the lives lost in the fight for Iraqi freedom.
- John Kerry voting for the money for the war before he voted against it.

Any others?


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## MtnMagic (Jun 28, 2004)

I'd list 3 that immediately come to mind but I rather not list more grusome events and happily get ready to visit my girlfriend. Maybe the others will post them. 

Also two that should be included are: listening to W say in his speach,  " Terrorists all other the world are running away." When in reality they are amassing in Iran to ambush our troups and the Iraqi people. 

W also said, _"The world is a better place now that Saddam is gone."_ I thought the U.N. was the police of the world. Or is it the U.S. Wait I know, it goes back 10 years to HW. Or maybe W is playing God.
__________________
Add your thoughts!


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## Stephen (Jun 28, 2004)

We also need a list of the countries that are now "free" thanks to US involvement under Republican leadership:

-Russia
-Ukraine
-Germany united
-Slovakia
-Chech Republic
-Uzbekistan
-Turkistan
-Poland
-Afghanistan
-Iraq
-Kuwait

-Plus many others, but of course, a lot of these don't matter, since they sent troops to the "unilateral" action in Iraq. 

-Stephen


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## riverc0il (Jun 28, 2004)

i'd include every dead body to date, especially those of the innocents which number thousands, and all the terrorists we actually created by being over there.  i'd include the families crying for lost loved one's from all sides, especially innocents.  i'd also include bin laden's head who was the real terrorist behind the 9/11 plot who remains at large.  but you can't really photograph his head since he hasn't been caught yet.

regarding your list of countries freed, let's also include a list of countries we've made worse through covert ops and deals gone bad including countries in which we've propped up terrorist organizations in the face of real democracies.  it has happened more often than most people would think.  both lists include leadership of both parties.  let's not kid ourselves here, we can bash partisan politics all lifetime long, or we can come together and see the truth that the two party system as it is - is the reason why so much crap happens in ANY administration regardless of political affiliation.

please tell me you saw the movie before you decided to attack it???  :roll: 

by the way, which president was in office when saddam was gassing his own people and why wasn't anything done about it then?  and which administration allowed saddam to set up shop and helped him?

let's not kid ourselves, michael moore has always been extreme in his views and presentation.  i haven't seen this movie yet and i will see it before offering commentary or judgement.  as someone that could be labelled rather "progressive" or "liberal" or what ever dumb label people use, i actually think moore hurts his position by his approach and ends up preaching to the converted.  regardless, if his information is factual and has merit, the documentary is worth a viewing regardless if every image from the past three years is shown or not.

carry on :argue:


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## Charlie Schuessler (Jun 28, 2004)

Regarding the movie, based on the reviews I've heard on NPR, the Nightly News and the NY Times, I find my self interested in seeing it.

I just finished the book "Stupid White Men" by Moore and found it very funny.  

Since his first popular movie, with Moore becoming very vocal, sort of reminds me in a way of Rush Limbaugh... :wink:


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## SilentCal (Jun 29, 2004)

Must resist......maybe I should just move back to Canada until after the election but Rivercoil hit a home run with what he said.   I plan to see the movie because I enjoyed his "Bowling for Columbine" flick and his sense of humor.   What is wrong with wanting to watch a film of someones politcal opinion.   That's all it is : an opinion of how he saw it.


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## Charlie Schuessler (Jul 4, 2004)

*A Review of Fahrenheit 9/11*

I saw the documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 today and recommend to anyone who may be interested, GO SEE IT.

For the most part, it is completed with Mr. Moore narrating the displayed news film footages of events over the last 25 years involving both President Bushes, their family, their military friends, their political friends, the Saudi's Prince Family and of course the Bin Ladens.  It also includes film footage of what is happening in Iraq and in Michigan.

It contained information like the Mid-East Pipeline project to Pakistan through Afghanistan and the Board of Director's positions of George HW Bush and the Saudi's holdings in USA businesses consisting of international oil and the US military.  Interesting and intriguing stuff (right out of a 1960’s spy novel).

I found Fahrenheit 9/11 to be a thought provoking production.  Some parts are funny and some are very sad.  It appears to be made by an American who believes that two of the last three Presidents would rather line their pockets with oil money than take care of world peace and protect the actual needs of Americans.  Namely veterans who fought in other wars and the poor who need assistance to live above the poverty line.

In summary I applaud Michael Moore's courage to produce this film.  Most documentary pieces like this are usually books written by unknown historians and who are read by very few.  Moore may never make another production financed by an American company again.  People don’t have to see this film.  It is his American right to produce it, movie houses right to show it and our American right to see it.  If you are even slightly interested, GO SEE IT.


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## riverc0il (Jul 5, 2004)

_The roots of that attack are to be found in the previous administration._

the roots for the attack have influences from every administration probably dating back to nixon and carters, but most especially the first gulf war (entirely justified) when bin laden viewed americans stepping on sacred soil to fight a war as "evil."  though clinton admin certainly bears some responsibility in not responding to the cole and other such attacks, as bush admin itself likes to say, everything was different before 9/11.  but the blame really is on the terrorists themselves.

regarding working together, this is a great thing.  but american style democracy does not work when 'everyone' works together.  people work together on different platforms argueing the best course for the nation.  although, one could see politics as multiple parties working together (or should), as i think the current state in washington shows the sad reality regardless of which politics you favor:  there's a lot of hate ("go f yourself" on the senate floor? and the conversation that inspired it by lahey) which sucks.  the whole political system right now is in a dive bomb heading for disaster regardless of which side of the issues you're on.

that said, being a democracy, there is no greater thing an american can do than attempt to hold an elected official responsible for their actions and call for a change in that position when the elected official has gone astray from what the individual feels is the best course.  i'm guilty of it too, people hate politics and won't get involved but they are the first to complain when something isn't done the way they want.

i think it's important to support the constitution and the office of the president, but it's also very important to dissent and oppose administrations and policies that you do not agree with.


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## Outtabreath (Jul 7, 2004)

Documentary?


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## Greg (Jul 7, 2004)

Outtabreath said:
			
		

> Documentary?


*Exactly.* I haven't seen it so I won't comment too much on it, but I will say this: Think Reality TV; i.e. hundreds of hours of footage which could be used to paint any picture you want. Sounds like propaganda to me...  :roll:


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## pedxing (Jul 20, 2004)

I was dissapointed by the movie.  It was revealing and poignant at times, but it was misleading and manipulative at others.  Bowling for Columbine was a much better movie overall, IMHO.

For a real understanding of the war on terror, read Richard Clarke's "Against All Enemies" 

For two key scenes I'd put in a 9/11 movie - I'd inlclude the mobilization and public awareness campaign in 199 that led to several millenium terrorist plots being foiled and compare it to Bush and his people turning a blind eye while Clarke and others were trying to get them to pay attention to the intelligence on AL-Qeda.


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## ProfesionalTraveler (Sep 6, 2004)

Documentary?  I thought documentaries were supposed to be based solely on facts and objective?  Listed below is the site for a new movie that may be released sometime this year.  He is a Michael Moore hater, but he explains:  

http://www.hy-way.com/michaelmoore/celcius911.htm

Although I am a republican, this is not why I posted this.  I research documentary movies before I watch them because I've seen a few that did not tell the whole truth or flat out lied.  This one does both.  That’s fine if you want to say this is a fictional film based on a factual event about the way he saw it. To call this a documentary though?  Maybe not.

Below is a link that lists the 59 Deceits in Fahrenheit 911:
http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf


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## pedxing (Sep 6, 2004)

I checked Kopel's list - he spins and distorts pretty badly when it comes to things I know about, so I can't trust him on anything that I don't know.  Now you'll have to research your research sources before seeing documentaries.  On the whole, he's probably less reliable than Moore, IMHO and Moore was definitely amnipulative and misleading at times.


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## Stephen (Sep 6, 2004)

And in case anyone was wondering about the TRUE motives.

- He plans on releasing the DVD by special arerangement on October 5th, to have the most impact on the elections.

-He's working hard to convince the DVD distributor to allow him to show it on TV the night before the elections.

-He's hoping to get a Best Picture Oscar, not a bes Documentary Oscar.

This is a propaganda film, not a documentary. It should be rexognized as a warp of the truth to fit a bias. Just like the rest of the media.

-Stephen


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## Stephen (Sep 6, 2004)

Oops, forogt my source.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-09-06


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## salida (Sep 6, 2004)

I noramlly don't get involved, but here is another site that has some good information.  www.bowlingfortruth.com

porter


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