# Aspen / KSL acquired Mammoth Resorts



## WJenness (Apr 12, 2017)

https://www.aspensnowmass.com/inside-aspen-snowmass/stories/better-together

Going to be quite the pass product if they do it like the Epic pass (which I would guess they fully will).

Wow.


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## Kleetus (Apr 12, 2017)

WJenness said:


> https://www.aspensnowmass.com/inside-aspen-snowmass/stories/better-together
> 
> Going to be quite the pass product if they do it like the Epic pass (which I would guess they fully will).
> 
> Wow.




And the acquisitions continue. Now to see if the rumors about Smuggs getting sold come to fruition.


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2017)

If this (and all that Vail Resorts has acquired the last few years as well) works long term, great!!

If not, the potential collapses could make what happened to ASC 10-15yrs ago look mighty small!!! 

That's a LOT of zero's behind the first number that Aspen/KSL has added to their liabilities column of their profit/loss sheet the last few days!!!

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## Glenn (Apr 12, 2017)

Interesting! Could there be more on the horizon?


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

Wow!  Just saw this on Aspen Snowmass FB Page

In case Monday's news wasn't enough, Mammoth Resorts (operators of Mammoth, June, Bear and Snow Summit) today announced that it has entered into an agreement to be acquired by affiliates of the Aspen Skiing Company and KSL.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

Kleetus said:


> Now to see if the rumors about Smuggs getting sold come to fruition.



What rumors?


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What rumors?



That started on the Stowe acquisition thread.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

dlague said:


> That started on the Stowe acquisition thread.



That was me who first postulated that as something I think could happen.  LOL.   I'm not a legitimate source for a "rumor" in the ski industry, it was just my speculation.


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## snoseek (Apr 12, 2017)

If they ever linked this all up on a pass this would blow the fucking doors off the epic pass. I would easily pay a grand for this pass providing the ability to travel. This is huge,  mammoth is one impressive hill....probably my favorite California mountain.


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## Jully (Apr 12, 2017)

snoseek said:


> If they ever linked this all up on a pass this would blow the fucking doors off the epic pass. I would easily pay a grand for this pass providing the ability to travel. This is huge,  mammoth is one impressive hill....probably my favorite California mountain.



Mammoth, Intrawest, Aspen. Pretty excellent combo. As with most multipass products, the western component is substantially better than the eastern. Right now, all Aspen has back east is Stratton, Tremblant, and Snowshoe (kinda). Correct? One more east coast location makes the pass better. This is what made the Max pass the best, IMO, was the number of east coast resorts (pretty good resorts too).


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## snoseek (Apr 12, 2017)

Jully said:


> Mammoth, Intrawest, Aspen. Pretty excellent combo. As with most multipass products, the western component is substantially better than the eastern. Right now, all Aspen has back east is Stratton, Tremblant, and Snowshoe (kinda). Correct? One more east coast location makes the pass better. This is what made the Max pass the best, IMO, was the number of east coast resorts (pretty good resorts too).



If they figured out jay it would be an easy sell for a whole lot of people.


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

snoseek said:


> If they ever linked this all up on a pass this would blow the fucking doors off the epic pass. I would easily pay a grand for this pass providing the ability to travel. This is huge,  mammoth is one impressive hill....probably my favorite California mountain.



I do not know about blowing the doors off but would be very competitive.  In Colorado, Aspen, Steamboat, Winter Park are a nice combo but not that great for day trippers.  The Epic Pass has the whole Summit county thing going which is manageable for day trippers.

Neither have a real solution for Utah outside of Vail/Park City.  Vail has a few Tahoe resorts where the Mammoth Resorts are spread out with two smaller but highly utilized ski areas in Southern CA.  Both have limited East Cost presence.  Vail does have Whistler another huge resort.


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## rtjcbrown (Apr 12, 2017)

Good thing the California drought is officially over, or this deal doesn't happen.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 12, 2017)

Smaller?  3500 acres is small?

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## Smellytele (Apr 12, 2017)

dlague said:


> I do not know about blowing the doors off but would be very competitive.  In Colorado, Aspen, Steamboat, Winter Park are a nice combo but not that great for day trippers.  The Epic Pass has the whole Summit county thing going which is manageable for day trippers.
> 
> Neither have a real solution for Utah outside of Vail/Park City.  Vail has a few Tahoe resorts where the Mammoth Resorts are spread out with two smaller but highly utilized ski areas in Southern CA.  Both have limited East Cost presence.  Vail does have Whistler another huge resort.



KSL also has Squaw/Alpine Meadows doesn't it?


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## Jully (Apr 12, 2017)

dlague said:


> Neither have a real solution for Utah outside of Vail/Park City.



That's why, if SkiCo is really trying to compete with Epic nationally (which it may or may not be), I think doing something with Powdr or Boyne would be highly beneficial. Probably not a merger, but some kind of reciprocity. Powdr would add Copper in CO bolstering the I-70 component while Boyne has the only thing resembling a competitor in the Utah area. 

Competing with Park City I feel is really tough though. It's too convenient and the name carries so much weight.



Smellytele said:


> KSL also has Squaw/Alpine Meadows doesn't it?



Yes.


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## snoseek (Apr 12, 2017)

Winter park is a whole lot easier to deal with day tripping than breck.


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## snoseek (Apr 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Smaller?  3500 acres is small?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Right? Mammoth is enormously. ....mammoth!


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## 4aprice (Apr 12, 2017)

Jully said:


> That's why, if SkiCo is really trying to compete with Epic nationally (which it may or may not be), I think doing something with Powdr or Boyne would be highly beneficial. Probably not a merger, but some kind of reciprocity. Powdr would add Copper in CO bolstering the I-70 component while Boyne has the only thing resembling a competitor in the Utah area.  Competing with Park City I feel is really tough though. It's too convenient and the name carries so much weight.



Brighton (Boyne) and Solitude which has Intrawest connections via their village development would be the ticket, though they are owned by Deer Valley. (What if Aspen scored DV?)  The big question is what happens to the Rocky Mountain Super Pass?  If Aspen plans to copy Vail then Copper would be a staple for a local pass for metro Denver.  Not a big fan of Mountain Collective so I hope they have alternative plans.  Will enjoy and take advantage of next year on Max Pass then see what products next March bring.  Hope an Aspen - Boyne relationship is in the works.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Jully (Apr 12, 2017)

4aprice said:


> Brighton (Boyne) and Solitude which has Intrawest connections via their village development would be the ticket, though they are owned by Deer Valley. (What if Aspen scored DV?)  The big question is what happens to the Rocky Mountain Super Pass?  If Aspen plans to copy Vail then Copper would be a staple for a local pass for metro Denver.  Not a big fan of Mountain Collective so I hope they have alternative plans.  Will enjoy and take advantage of next year on Max Pass then see what products next March bring.  Hope an Aspen - Boyne relationship is in the works.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



If Aspen scored DV that would really make waves (not that anything that's happened so far hasn't made waves). Not a huge fan of the MC either. I was worried they were going to do something with that after the Intrawest deal, but with Mammoth too, I think something bigger is in the works.


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## Jully (Apr 12, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Right? Mammoth is enormously. ....mammoth!



Lol


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

By biggest question is whether or not these mega passes are an enduring industry thing, or a fad that will largely be gone in 20 years.   While a smart way to get residents of Wisconsin or Michigan to your resort each year, I feel the appeal is simply overrated for most of the population.  And I really question what happens once we have numerous mega pass options all competing against each other, which is soon to be.


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## Duncanator24 (Apr 12, 2017)

Interesting since both Aspen and Mammoth are in the Mountain Collective. Wonder if a lot of those mountains will end up in one giant conglomerate. Would be nice to have more than two days at each.


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## xwhaler (Apr 12, 2017)

Duncanator24 said:


> Interesting since both Aspen and Mammoth are in the Mountain Collective. Wonder if a lot of those mountains will end up in one giant conglomerate. Would be nice to have more than two days at each.



+1 I need some extra incentive before I pull the trigger on my MC pass for next season
Hopefully some EC component


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## deadheadskier (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> By biggest question is whether or not these mega passes are an enduring industry thing, or a fad that will largely be gone in 20 years.   While a smart way to get residents of Wisconsin or Michigan to your resort each year, I feel the appeal is simply overrated for most of the population.  And I really question what happens once we have numerous mega pass options all competing against each other, which is soon to be.


What makes you "feel" that way? Multi mountain passes have always been pretty popular dating back to ASC. 

They give folks variety and keep people spending their money regionally or nationally "in the family." 

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## xwhaler (Apr 12, 2017)

I agree with BG, it definitely has the potential to squeeze the smaller players out that the larger mtns have no interest in adding to their portfolio.
I would guess that in 50 yrs we will have far fewer operating ski mtns than currently exist today and the ones that do exist will follow a very similiar business model and have a largely uniform feel/vibe. 
For my kids and their kids this makes me sort of sad evn though right now I'm enjoying the inexpensive skiing at a variety of mtns.


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## Jully (Apr 12, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> I agree with BG, it definitely has the potential to squeeze the smaller players out that the larger mtns have no interest in adding to their portfolio.
> I would guess that in 50 yrs we will have far fewer operating ski mtns than currently exist today and the ones that do exist will follow a very similiar business model and have a largely uniform feel/vibe.
> For my kids and their kids this makes me sort of sad evn though right now I'm enjoying the inexpensive skiing at a variety of mtns.



That's already been happening though. With snowmaking, grooming, and high speed lifts, the capital just isn't available for smaller resorts in the same way and bigger resorts need more capital than ever before, more than they can generate on their own oftentimes. Us participating in multi-mountain passes isn't the main driver causing the homogenization and consolidation of the ski industry, IMO. 

One of the main drivers behind the Aspen KSL moves is access to capital rather than a burning desire to participate in a multi-mountain fad and take on Vail (though the Vail component is partially TBD). Mammoth brass basically said their capital and timespan for expansion and development had dried up (accelerated by the great recession). KSL  has the money so they went with the merger.

http://www.saminfo.com/headline-new...l-capital-partners-to-acquire-mammoth-resorts


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## Edd (Apr 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Smaller?  3500 acres is small?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I think he's referring to Snow Summit and Bear in Southern CA. I've skied them and they're not big for western hills. I've never heard of June Mountain.


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## Domeskier (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I really question what happens once we have numerous mega pass options all competing against each other, which is soon to be.



They'll probably start raising prices dramatically like cell phone and cable providers.


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## 4aprice (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> By biggest question is whether or not these mega passes are an enduring industry thing, or a fad that will largely be gone in 20 years.   While a smart way to get residents of Wisconsin or Michigan to your resort each year, I feel the appeal is simply overrated for most of the population.  And I really question what happens once we have numerous mega pass options all competing against each other, which is soon to be.



I hope this trend continues.  Having the Max Pass was awesome this year and we really took advantage of the variety.  We are going to continue to ski in Colorado and Utah every year and as long as we remain here on the east coast I will look the best product that provides skiing here and out there.  Already set for next year with Max and will see what transpires next March.  Always been a fan of Aspen so if they put together something interesting we will definitely take a look at it.  Being locked into certain areas for a season doesn't bother me and makes travel plans pretty easy.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## bushpilot (Apr 12, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> They'll probably start raising prices dramatically like cell phone and cable providers.



and then the smaller mtns will have a chance to come back with lower prices catering to a different customer just like cell phone companies (metro pcs, sprint etc) and cable alternatives (hulu, netflix, even play station is getting in on the action).


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## Domeskier (Apr 12, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> and then the smaller mtns will have a chance to come back with lower prices catering to a different customer just like cell phone companies (metro pcs, sprint etc) and cable alternatives (hulu, netflix, even play station is getting in on the action).



The difference being that the major telecomm providers do not have a monopoly on the best content.  If all the best mountains are owned by a handful of major corporations, all the little guys can do is lower prices and hope to attract people like me who don't care if Satan's Staircase has just 300 steps.


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Smaller?  3500 acres is small?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Southern California ski areas are small - Bear Mountain has 768 acres permitted and 195 acres developed and Snow Summit is 240 skiable acres.  Relative to Mammoth!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

...and the plot thickens.


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Winter park is a whole lot easier to deal with day tripping than breck.



Not when you are coming from the Springs.


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Right? Mammoth is enormously. ....mammoth!



Was talking about Bear Mountain and Snow Summit!


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

Edd said:


> I think he's referring to Snow Summit and Bear in Southern CA. I've skied them and they're not big for western hills. I've never heard of June Mountain.



yup!  I have skied both as well when I lived in Southern CA.  Actually felt like I was in New England.


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## snoseek (Apr 12, 2017)

dlague said:


> Not when you are coming from the Springs.




OK but to be fair WP is an easier go for the vast majority of the front range.


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## dlague (Apr 12, 2017)

Well Callifornia certianly has multi resort pass options options as well as Colorado where there are multiple multi mountain options as well as discount opportunities.  The Max Pass and the Peak Pass seemed to be the initial answer for New England and now it looks like that will be expanding.  However,, I wonder if there will be a dismantlement of Max and MC Passes if this continues.

The Gems Card is a perfect example of how the smaller places are competing for visits - buy a card for $25 and get two 2 for 1s at eight different places.

Even places like Monarch are partnering with this type of deal


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## benski (Apr 12, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> They'll probably start raising prices dramatically like cell phone and cable providers.



I fear this too. The increased market power seems like the most logical reason to merge.


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## Smellytele (Apr 13, 2017)

dlague said:


> Well Callifornia certianly has multi resort pass options options as well as Colorado where there are multiple multi mountain options as well as discount opportunities.  The Max Pass and the Peak Pass seemed to be the initial answer for New England and now it looks like that will be expanding.  However,, I wonder if there will be a dismantlement of Max and MC Passes if this continues.
> 
> The Gems Card is a perfect example of how the smaller places are competing for visits - buy a card for $25 and get two 2 for 1s at eight different places.
> 
> ...



Smaller areas also grouped together for the Freedom Pass


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## Glenn (Apr 13, 2017)

I think the issue ASC had with those multi mountain passes was the cost. They were actually too cheap. They oversold and mountains were pretty crowded on the weekends. IIRC of course.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2017)

Glenn said:


> I think the issue ASC had with those multi mountain passes was the cost. They were actually too cheap. They oversold and mountains were pretty crowded on the weekends. IIRC of course.



Yes, at the end this was the case. By then though the end was near anyways. 


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## 4aprice (Apr 24, 2017)

Asked a guest services representative at Winter Park what he thought was going to happen with passes  (RMSP and Max) this past weekend and he had no solid information on what Aspen will do.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## machski (Apr 24, 2017)

4aprice said:


> Asked a guest services representative at Winter Park what he thought was going to happen with passes  (RMSP and Max) this past weekend and he had no solid information on what Aspen will do.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ


Why would they rush this?  Passes for 17-18 are already locked in products due to early sales.  Aspen-KSL has plenty of time to explore their options for this.  I would not expect to hear anything official until midwinter the earliest.

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## dlague (Aug 2, 2017)

It is official!

https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/aspen-ksl-continue-buying-spree


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## Jully (Aug 2, 2017)

dlague said:


> It is official!
> 
> https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/aspen-ksl-continue-buying-spree



New name to be announced around the start of the 2017 - 2018 season too. Looking forward to that. Excited to follow this. There will probably be more acquisitions. I'd love to see a strong connection to the southern hemisphere too, though who knows if we will see that.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2017)

Adding Winter Park will be big for Aspen.  Now they are in on the weekend / day trip skier market from Denver.  I'd imagine most Denver folks aren't regularly traveling to Aspen on weekends because they have to drive past too many great areas to get there and deal with bad traffic. 

The Eastern components of Stratton (too crowded on the weekends) and Tremblant (too far of a drive) don't excite me too much.  What if they were able to snap up Jay/Burke though?  Now that they have Tremblant, I'd have to imaging Jay is well on their radar.  That would give them the two best resorts in the Montreal market.  I'd have to imagine that Vail or Aspen are the two favorites to eventually purchase Jay/Burke.


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## machski (Aug 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Adding Winter Park will be big for Aspen.  Now they are in on the weekend / day trip skier market from Denver.  I'd imagine most Denver folks aren't regularly traveling to Aspen on weekends because they have to drive past too many great areas to get there and deal with bad traffic.
> 
> The Eastern components of Stratton (too crowded on the weekends) and Tremblant (too far of a drive) don't excite me too much.  What if they were able to snap up Jay/Burke though?  Now that they have Tremblant, I'd have to imaging Jay is well on their radar.  That would give them the two best resorts in the Montreal market.  I'd have to imagine that Vail or Aspen are the two favorites to eventually purchase Jay/Burke.


I think they have enough to invest in with their current Eastern areas.  Tremblant is way too crowded weekends (they need lift investment heavily) and Stratton probably needs some inventive redesign.  I don't really see them focusing on the east, some western targets are more likely.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2017)

Upgrading the Snowbowl quad to a high speed chair at Stratton would help a lot with crowd dispersion.  Moving the Shooting Star lift to the old Kidderbrook line would help too.  That lift wasn't very well thought out. You can only lap like three trails off of it.  There are some great glades on that side of the hill. It just sucks you have to do the long run out back to the base of the Sun Bowl when you ski them. 

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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Upgrading the Snowbowl quad to a high speed chair at Stratton would help a lot with crowd dispersion.  Moving the Shooting Star lift to the old Kidderbrook line would help too.  That lift wasn't very well thought out. You can only lap like three trails off of it.  There are some great glades on that side of the hill. It just sucks you have to do the long run out back to the base of the Sun Bowl when you ski them.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Lets also add in getting a gondola, that can run at a decent speed, in more than about a 3.2mph wind, on the list of lift needs for Stratton....


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## dlague (Aug 3, 2017)

machski said:


> I think they have enough to invest in with their current Eastern areas.  Tremblant is way too crowded weekends (they need lift investment heavily) and Stratton probably needs some inventive redesign.  I don't really see them focusing on the east, some western targets are more likely.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app





deadheadskier said:


> Upgrading the Snowbowl quad to a high speed chair at Stratton would help a lot with crowd dispersion.  Moving the Shooting Star lift to the old Kidderbrook line would help too.  That lift wasn't very well thought out. You can only lap like three trails off of it.  There are some great glades on that side of the hill. It just sucks you have to do the long run out back to the base of the Sun Bowl when you ski them.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app





drjeff said:


> Lets also add in getting a gondola, that can run at a decent speed, in more than about a 3.2mph wind, on the list of lift needs for Stratton....



I will be curious to see where they invest first.  My guest with places like Mammoth, and Winter Park, and Steamboat would be likely targets with them being in the top 20 resorts with the most skier visits.



> The operator, Aspen Skiing Co., really only wanted Winter Park, Steamboat and Intrawest’s Canadian Mountain Holidays helicopter skiing operation.  But Intrawest wanted to sell the entire company — six resorts in Canada, Colorado, Vermont and West Virginia, 1,113 acres of land, the 12-lodge CMH and a real estate business — in a single transaction.



So technically, they were kind of forced to buy the others.

Side note: 

Intrawest CEO Tom Marano, who joined the company in November 2014, will make more than $33 million in the deal off his more than 2.64 million company stock options, not counting a severance package.

Not bad!


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## Jully (Aug 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Upgrading the Snowbowl quad to a high speed chair at Stratton would help a lot with crowd dispersion.  Moving the Shooting Star lift to the old Kidderbrook line would help too.  That lift wasn't very well thought out. You can only lap like three trails off of it.  There are some great glades on that side of the hill. It just sucks you have to do the long run out back to the base of the Sun Bowl when you ski them.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I cannot for the life of me understand the shooting star lift purpose at Stratton other than being directly across from the sunrise lift. You can't lap the trails on the left and the right of the lift and its a really short lift. The Kidderbrook area could really use a lift IMO. The place would ski a lot bigger with it.

That run out is also one of the worst run outs in the east IMO.


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## Jully (Aug 3, 2017)

dlague said:


> I will be curious to see where they invest first.  My guest with places like Mammoth, and Winter Park, and Steamboat would be likely targets with them being in the top 20 resorts with the most skier visits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How much investment is needed at WP? I know Mammoth needs a bit. Is the goal going to be to maximize skier visits at the already cash cow resorts or try to leverage the success of those resorts to try and upgrade resorts that are close, but a little bit away from being truly successful?


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## 4aprice (Aug 3, 2017)

machski said:


> I think they have enough to invest in with their current Eastern areas.  Tremblant is way too crowded weekends (they need lift investment heavily) and Stratton probably needs some inventive redesign.  I don't really see them focusing on the east, some western targets are more likely.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I wonder if Copper might be one of those targets.  I would imagine that RMSP has been a pretty good competitor to Epic in the Denver area.  I think they would need more then just Winter Park to compete against the trio of Breck, Keystone, and A Bay.  Keeping Copper in the fold would help.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Jully (Aug 3, 2017)

4aprice said:


> I wonder if Copper might be one of those targets.  I would imagine that RMSP has been a pretty good competitor to Epic in the Denver area.  I think they would need more then just Winter Park to compete against the trio of Breck, Keystone, and A Bay.  Keeping Copper in the fold would help.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Just have them buy all of POWDR. Simplifies everything.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2017)

Jully said:


> I cannot for the life of me understand the shooting star lift purpose at Stratton other than being directly across from the sunrise lift. You can't lap the trails on the left and the right of the lift and its a really short lift. The Kidderbrook area could really use a lift IMO. The place would ski a lot bigger with it.
> 
> That run out is also one of the worst run outs in the east IMO.


IIRC they put in the Shooting Star lift while the Kidderbrook chair was still in place.  The idea was to offer a faster way to the summit from that side of the hill instead of the long slow KB chair.  What they really should have done is just replaced the KB chair with a high speed lift.  

Yes, that run out blows and then you are rewarded with a massive line at the Sunbowl chair to get back up the mountain.  

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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2017)

Interesting article on what might happen....Holding has been gone for some time now.  

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/...shopping-spree-finally-over-we-dont-think-so/


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## Jully (Aug 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> IIRC they put in the Shooting Star lift while the Kidderbrook chair was still in place.  The idea was to offer a faster way to the summit from that side of the hill instead of the long slow KB chair.  What they really should have done is just replaced the KB chair with a high speed lift.
> 
> Yes, that run out blows and then you are rewarded with a massive line at the Sunbowl chair to get back up the mountain.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



That would make sense, but I agree. Odd they did not look to replace that chair.


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## Jully (Aug 3, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting article on what might happen....Holding has been gone for some time now.
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/...shopping-spree-finally-over-we-dont-think-so/



Snowbasin would really fuel the idea that they are trying to compete with Vail, IMO.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2017)

Jully said:


> Snowbasin would really fuel the idea that they are trying to compete with Vail, IMO.



Forget Snowbasin.  How about SUN VALLEY?  That has a lot more cache.


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## abc (Aug 3, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Forget Snowbasin.  How about SUN VALLEY?  That has a lot more cache.


More cache? With which demographic?


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## Glenn (Aug 4, 2017)

Top and bottom cement structures are still in place for the old Kidderbrook lift. The old lift line is still there since it mostly went up the Kidderbrook trail. There's a large deck over the top terminal cement structures. WHo knows, maybe some day they'll put in another lift there. I agree, that runout at the base of Kidderbrook can be brutal. It's tough when the snow is soft. And it's always a mix of skier abilities there.


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## tumbler (Aug 21, 2017)

They are buying Deer Valley


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

tumbler said:


> They are buying Deer Valley



Beat me to the punch:



> As a valued guest, I want to be the first to let you know the latest news. The newly formed entity controlled by affiliates of KSL Capital Partners, LLC (“KSL”) and Henry Crown and Company (“HCC”) that in July joined Intrawest Resorts, Mammoth Resorts and Squaw Valley Ski Holdings has entered into an agreement with Deer Valley® to acquire the resort.
> Over the last 36 years, Deer Valley has developed into one of the highest quality ski resorts in the country. This transaction puts the resort in a strong position to continue to grow as part of a portfolio of 12 other outstanding resorts. We are excited about the new opportunities this will create for our staff, our guests and the Park City community.
> I know there will be questions about the purchase and why we entered into this agreement. For this reason, we have included a link to the press release that was sent to media as well as a list of your anticipated questions and answers.
> Please know that KSL and HCC are committed to Deer Valley’s brand, providing exceptional service to our guests, as well as to the staff. They truly value the efforts and dedication from staff members in building this amazing, preeminent mountain resort.
> I plan to stay on as President/General Manager serving in my current role at Deer Valley Resort with no anticipated changes, and I sincerely hope you share in my excitement as we enter this new phase in the evolution and growth of Deer Valley Resort.


----------



## dlague (Aug 21, 2017)

There was no mention of Aspen but that is covered under Henry Crown and Company - the Crown family owns Aspen Skiing Company


This will help to clear the mud.  This article is from about three weeks ago.

http://www.kslcapital.com/pressroom/pressarticle/1038


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## dlague (Aug 21, 2017)

they also announced this and looks like they will pull out of the Mountain Collective



> Because both resort companies have already put their season pass products on sale for next season (Intrawest’s MAX Pass and Aspen both solo and as part of Mountain Collective), no real changes in terms of access will be in place for the coming 2017-18 season. But going forward, this further ski industry consolidation will create the first serious competitor to Vail Resorts’ Epic Pass, with a similar geographic range of major ski resorts. By the following winter - barring any more purchases - Aspen should be able to offer a pass that will allow customers to ski at a dozen mountains from the East Coast to the Rockies to Tahoe, as well as Canada.


----------



## dlague (Aug 21, 2017)

Somehow these two threads should be merged under something like All things KSL Capital Partners / Henry Crown & Company (Aspen Skiing Company)


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## mbedle (Aug 21, 2017)

Where does this leave Solitude? Didn't Deer Valley purchase them in 2014?


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## Jully (Aug 21, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Where does this leave Solitude? Didn't Deer Valley purchase them in 2014?



Solitude is not included in this deal. Seems odd as its owned by the DV partners and a lot of what drives business there is its association with DV and associated deals and such (or at least that was my understanding). Makes me wonder if the DV partners have something else in mind for Solitude or if it will be a separate transaction... idk.

There was the One Wasach proposal awhile ago.


----------



## 4aprice (Aug 21, 2017)

Jully said:


> Solitude is not included in this deal. Seems odd as its owned by the DV partners and a lot of what drives business there is its association with DV and associated deals and such (or at least that was my understanding). Makes me wonder if the DV partners have something else in mind for Solitude or if it will be a separate transaction... idk.
> 
> There was the One Wasach proposal awhile ago.



Hopefully Boyne will step up to the plate and take Solitude, improve the connection and make it one with Brighton.  That would provide good competition to the canyons on either side of BCC.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Jully (Aug 21, 2017)

4aprice said:


> Hopefully Boyne will step up to the plate and take Solitude, improve the connection and make it one with Brighton.  That would provide good competition to the canyons on either side of BCC.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



That'd be pretty awesome indeed! It would absolutely provide a solid alternative.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Where does this leave Solitude? Didn't Deer Valley purchase them in 2014?



My question as well.  



Jully said:


> Solitude is not included in this deal. Seems odd as its owned by the DV partners and a lot of what drives business there is its association with DV and associated deals and such (or at least that was my understanding). Makes me wonder if the DV partners have something else in mind for Solitude or if it will be a separate transaction... idk.
> 
> There was the One Wasach proposal awhile ago.



Huh?  :blink:  That seems odd.  I would have thought that KSL would have wanted DV completely out of the game and out of the market.  And I would have thought that DV would have just wanted to cash-out and walk away.  Perhaps DV is working on a second attempt to sell Solitude to Boyne.  The first go-round in 2013 or 2014 got close but Boyne couldn't get the money.  

This also shows that KSL is interested in directly competing with Vail since Park City Mountain Resort is literally a rope line away from Deer Valley.  Apparently KSL wasn't interested in Solitude....assuming it is not part of the deal.


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## Jully (Aug 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Huh?  :blink:  That seems odd.  I would have thought that KSL would have wanted DV completely out of the game and out of the market.  And I would have thought that DV would have just wanted to cash-out and walk away.  Perhaps DV is working on a second attempt to sell Solitude to Boyne.  The first go-round in 2013 or 2014 got close but Boyne couldn't get the money.



Question:  Is Solitude included in the buy?
Answer: No. Deer Valley partners will maintain ownership of Solitude Mountain Resort.

http://blog.deervalley.com/deer-val...ammoth-resorts-and-squaw-valley-ski-holdings/

I'd guess for a second deal as well, unless DV investors have other plans for Solitude or are trying to sell it to someone else (Boyne).


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## dlague (Aug 21, 2017)

Brighton is owned by Och-Ziff Real Estate.  I know Boyne operates the resort but Boyne's model seems to be more operational.  While they have bought properties in the past like Big Sky and others, it seems like the MO these days is to operate.  There are always possibilities.

I appears to me that the family that owned Deer Valley and Solitude may be trying to sell them separately to get more bang for the buck.


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## mbedle (Aug 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> My question as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't Dear Valley purchase Solitude in 2014, were they really trying to sell it right after purchasing it?


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## slatham (Aug 21, 2017)

"Perhaps DV is working on a second attempt to sell Solitude to Boyne. The first go-round in 2013 or 2014 got close but Boyne couldn't get the money."

While the previous owns of Solitude may have tried selling to Boyne in '13 or '14, it wasn't DV trying to sell. They only bought Solitude in Oct '14.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

slatham said:


> "Perhaps DV is working on a second attempt to sell Solitude to Boyne. The first go-round in 2013 or 2014 got close but Boyne couldn't get the money."
> 
> While the previous owns of Solitude may have tried selling to Boyne in '13 or '14, it wasn't DV trying to sell. They only bought Solitude in Oct '14.



Right.  The DeSeelhorsts were trying to sell in that timeframe.  DV bought it in October 2014.  

And:  http://blog.deervalley.com/deer-val...paign=DeerValleyKSL&utm_content=DeerValleyKSL


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

And Solitude is now worth more than it was in 2014 because of DV's improvements including a new Summit HSQ and a new Midmountain Lodge.


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## mbedle (Aug 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  The DeSeelhorsts were trying to sell in that timeframe.  DV bought it in October 2014.
> 
> And:  http://blog.deervalley.com/deer-val...paign=DeerValleyKSL&utm_content=DeerValleyKSL



Sorry - miss understood you, thought you were saying that DV was trying to sell to Boyne. Given everything that DV put into the place, I highly doubt that Boyne is in a position to purchase it. Especially if they couldn't get funding for it before at a cheaper price.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Sorry - miss understood you, thought you were saying that DV was trying to sell to Boyne. Given everything that DV put into the place, I highly doubt that Boyne is in a position to purchase it. Especially if they couldn't get funding for it before at a cheaper price.



Agreed.  Not sure who would step up to buy it other than Boyne or maybe Vail if they could ever get the Ski Link done (fat chance).


----------



## machski (Aug 21, 2017)

Boyne may have the capital now after Crystal was bought out of Boyne ownership.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

machski said:


> Boyne may have the capital now after Crystal was bought out of Boyne ownership.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Did Boyne own Crystal or was it a REIT/lease operation like most of Boyne's resorts?


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## 4aprice (Aug 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.  Not sure who would step up to buy it other than Boyne or maybe Vail if they could ever get the Ski Link done (fat chance).



When the owners of DV put Solitude on Max, they did not include Deer Valley itself.  Maybe its more valuable as a partnership with Brighton as it is now on Max.  Speaking for myself, we did not even go up LCC (PC valley either) on our week long trip out there last year.  

I would love to see Boyne operate both and break into the Colorado scene some how.  Their east coast portfolio is better then either Aspen's or Vail's right now IMO.  Ah, that perfect travel/ticket combination that's so elusive (you know the one that has all the areas you like at the right price?).  March will be interesting when all these new products start to roll out.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## mbedle (Aug 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Did Boyne own Crystal or was it a REIT/lease operation like most of Boyne's resorts?



They owned it outright.


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## mbedle (Aug 22, 2017)

Looks like Crystal mountain wasn't actually sold to John Kircher, he was the CEO in Boyne Resorts (His dad started the business). He acquired full ownership of Crystal by giving up his shares in Boyne Resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Crystal mountain wasn't actually sold to John Kircher, he was the CEO in Boyne Resorts (His dad started the business). He acquired full ownership of Crystal by giving up his shares in Boyne Resorts.



Interesting.


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## dlague (Aug 22, 2017)

4aprice said:


> When the owners of DV put Solitude on Max, they did not include Deer Valley itself.  Maybe its more valuable as a partnership with Brighton as it is now on Max.  Speaking for myself, we did not even go up LCC (PC valley either) on our week long trip out there last year.
> 
> I would love to see Boyne operate both and break into the Colorado scene some how.  Their east coast portfolio is better then either Aspen's or Vail's right now IMO.  Ah, that perfect travel/ticket combination that's so elusive (you know the one that has all the areas you like at the right price?).  March will be interesting when all these new products start to roll out.
> 
> ...



While I would have to agree in some sense regarding Boyne and their East Coast presence, some might argue that Stowe for Vail and Stratton and Tremblant for KSL are better oriented for where the market is.  Boyne is better suited for the Boston Market.  Sugarloaf is not a day trip for 99% so they rely on vacationers and to some degree Sunday River is in the same boat with about 75% of their visitors.  Loon (Boston Mountain) is the best positioned since it is drive-able for a day trip from the MA border and some might even argue from Boston (a bit long) but similar to day trips I have made to Stowe from Concord, NH.

Stowe is well positioned to reach several markets (Montreal, NY, Boston) and they have a great town near by as well as Burlington not that far away.   Stowe is about equidistant from Boston as Sunday River - I probably would choose Stowe.

Stratton is very well positioned for the NY Market and like Stowe pretty good for the Boston market.  Temblant is very well positioned for the Montreal market but they get visitors from all over and they to have a fantastic town at the base - probably the best out of all the resorts mentioned.

While Boyne my have one great resort with Sugarloaf and two decent resorts with Sunday River and Loon, Vail got one of New England's crown jewels and I bet they are not done yet.  KSL well they got one of Quebec's crown jewels and picked up one of the busier resorts in New England with Stratton (they can have it IMO).


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## Jully (Aug 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> While I would have to agree in some sense regarding Boyne and their East Coast presence, some might argue that Stowe for Vail and Stratton and Tremblant for KSL are better oriented for where the market is.  Boyne is better suited for the Boston Market.  Sugarloaf is not a day trip for 99% so they rely on vacationers and to some degree Sunday River is in the same boat with about 75% of their visitors.  Loon (Boston Mountain) is the best positioned since it is drive-able for a day trip from the MA border and some might even argue from Boston (a bit long) but similar to day trips I have made to Stowe from Concord, NH.
> 
> Stowe is well positioned to reach several markets (Montreal, NY, Boston) and they have a great town near by as well as Burlington not that far away.   Stowe is about equidistant from Boston as Sunday River - I probably would choose Stowe.
> 
> ...



I'm assuming what Alex was saying was that he preferred Boyne's eastern offerings to KSL and Vail. I have to agree with him. Stowe certainly beats anything Boyne offers (or anyone else offers in NE for that matter) in a direct comparison, but the combo of SR and SL in Maine (fewer people) have it beat IMO. If it were JUST Sunday River or JUST SL, then that would be a different story for me at least. I agree with you about Stratton haha. 

Overall I'd like to see these companies all pick up just one more resort somewhere in NE to make it something I can really get excited about (and be better than Peaks for east coast stuff). I do not think that is going to happen since all the money is focused out west.

Boyne and Powdr have a great thing going with their collaboration on MAX (and also still a solid east coast and decent west coast offering together), I wonder if they'll upgrade from the MAX to another type of combo pass offering next year.


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## dlague (Aug 22, 2017)

Jully said:


> I'm assuming what Alex was saying was that he preferred Boyne's eastern offerings to KSL and Vail. I have to agree with him. Stowe certainly beats anything Boyne offers (or anyone else offers in NE for that matter) in a direct comparison, but the combo of SR and SL in Maine (fewer people) have it beat IMO. If it were JUST Sunday River or JUST SL, then that would be a different story for me at least. I agree with you about Stratton haha.
> 
> Overall I'd like to see these companies all pick up just one more resort somewhere in NE to make it something I can really get excited about (and be better than Peaks for east coast stuff). I do not think that is going to happen since all the money is focused out west.
> 
> Boyne and Powdr have a great thing going with their collaboration on MAX (and also still a solid east coast and decent west coast offering together), I wonder if they'll upgrade from the MAX to another type of combo pass offering next year.



The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it.  There is not really much around there.  At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.

While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?


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## Jully (Aug 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it.  There is not really much around there.  At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.
> 
> While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?



Oh certainly not. I'm actually not even a huge fan of Bethel, especially compared to what is in VT or North Conway. 

It seems no western focused operator is super into the idea of running the smaller eastern hills (though we have a very small sample size of acquisitions to work with), so I think the slightly larger resorts are the ones that are going to be grabbed.

For KSL, I think a NH resort would be a nice fit if they want to expand their eastern offerings. I would also be excited to see that haha. They've tipped that they are interested resort development in a way that Vail is not, so I might think they are looking for resorts with potential that is relatively untapped (WV especially comes to mind). They're willing to go out and get a mountain they want though, they're definitely not looking for rock bottom prices.


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## Smellytele (Aug 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> The only problem I have with Sugarloaf is the non skiing part of it.  There is not really much around there.  At least Sunday River has Bethel but it is not a walking town like Stowe or Tremblant have.
> 
> While I am out west now, I too would like to see more eastern resorts get picked up to make things more compelling for the Northeast, but which resorts would make the most sense?



While Stowe is a real town Tremblant is a fabricated town like Vail. Also Stowe maybe a "walking town" but it is pretty stretched out and although I don't go there often I still drive in between places. Walking towns are more like Breckenridge and Lake Placid.


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## dlague (Aug 22, 2017)

Jully said:


> Oh certainly not. I'm actually not even a huge fan of Bethel, especially compared to what is in VT or North Conway.
> 
> It seems no western focused operator is super into the idea of running the smaller eastern hills (though we have a very small sample size of acquisitions to work with), so I think the slightly larger resorts are the ones that are going to be grabbed.
> 
> For KSL, I think a NH resort would be a nice fit if they want to expand their eastern offerings. I would also be excited to see that haha. They've tipped that they are interested resort development in a way that Vail is not, so I might think they are looking for resorts with potential that is relatively untapped (WV especially comes to mind). They're willing to go out and get a mountain they want though, they're definitely not looking for rock bottom prices.



Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck.  At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO.  Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away.  That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy.  So probably the only viable option.

But considering NH, there are not many choices.  Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.

In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled.  Then there is Smuggs but that does not look like it will go anywhere but that would work well for Vail, beyond those the others are accounted for by PWDER, EPR Properties/Triple Peaks, Peak Resports, Vail, and KSL.

In Maine well the two best properties are taken by EPR Properties and operated by Boyne.


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## machski (Aug 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck.  At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO.  Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away.  That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy.  So probably the only viable option.
> 
> But considering NH, there are not many choices.  Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.
> 
> ...


True on WV now, but with the Green peak expansion, the town link is now a logical next step.  An operator with the pockets could completely transform Waterville in a year or 2.  The big question there is, would it be too close to Boston?  Given the lodging re-explosion in Lincoln, I'd say not.  And if town is lift and ski linked, wow.  If this were to happen before Balsams got started, might give them another brake light up if the far north.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> Waterville Valley is kind of an odd duck.  At 265 skiable acres it skis smaller as compared to Cannon which 282 just 17 acres more but skis much larger IMO.  Also, all their lodging is down in the town several miles away.  That being said, they market themselves well and certainly draw crowds - not Loon crazy busy but wait in lift lines busy.  So probably the only viable option.
> 
> But considering NH, there are not many choices.  Peaks owns or operates several, Boyne operates Loon, Cannon is state owned, Ragged is not busy enough, Gunstock is county owned etc.
> 
> In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled.





machski said:


> True on WV now, but with the Green peak expansion, the town link is now a logical next step.  An operator with the pockets could completely transform Waterville in a year or 2.  The big question there is, would it be too close to Boston?  Given the lodging re-explosion in Lincoln, I'd say not.  And if town is lift and ski linked, wow.  If this were to happen before Balsams got started, might give them another brake light up if the far north.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I agree WV now is certainly nothing desirable, but there is a ton of potential there. The town needs a bit of revitalization, and the ski area some expansion to make it ski a little bigger, but with that, it'd be a really good competitor to Loon again IMO. KSL talks about expansion at DV with real estate development, so if they're interested back east, WV has some significant real estate possibilities with the village gondola project. I agree with Mach, I don't think real estate will be an issue because it is TOO close to Boston. 

Ragged also has big real estate plans and the new ownership is making it more busy, but it will never be a significant competitor and I'd be shocked if a big western company had any interest in a 1200 vertical bump in Danbury. 

I don't think Jay/Burke would be of any interest to KSL because it would just cannibalize their Tremblant market. I personally (significant armchair quarterbacking here) think there is more to be gained further south in NH or So. Vt.


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## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

As far as JayPeak/Burke, I'm not sure I would call that cannibalizing, more just gaining market share.


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> As far as JayPeak/Burke, I'm not sure I would call that cannibalizing, more just gaining market share.



Fair point, but how much market share is there to gain from Montreal with Tremblant already there versus somewhere farther south closer to Boston or NYC?


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## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

Jully said:


> Fair point, but how much market share is there to gain from Montreal with Tremblant already there versus somewhere farther south closer to Boston or NYC?



I guess the question is do they actually need to gain market share or just maintain market share and increase revenue via raising prices.  I think this situation is similar to Boyne owning Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon.


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I guess the question is do they actually need to gain market share or just maintain market share and increase revenue via raising prices.  I think this situation is similar to Boyne owning Sunday River, Sugarloaf and Loon.



True! They really could get a stranglehold on the bigger resort Montreal market with a Jay/Burke purchase. Obviously many Eastern Township areas are independent.


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## machski (Aug 23, 2017)

Jully said:


> True! They really could get a stranglehold on the bigger resort Montreal market with a Jay/Burke purchase. Obviously many Eastern Township areas are independent.


Plus, linked to a multi area pass Nationwide would likely increase traffic to Jay/Burke from the South as well for at least weekend stays I bet.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> While *Stowe *is a real town *Tremblant* is a fabricated town like *Vail*. Also Stowe maybe a "walking town" but it is pretty stretched out and although I don't go there often I still drive in between places. Walking towns are more like *Breckenridge *and* Lake Placid*.



All of those are easily walkable, except Stowe.  Stowe is extremely spread out.



dlague said:


> In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled.  Then* there is Smuggs but that does not look like it will go anywhere but that would work well for Vail*, beyond those the others are accounted for by PWDER, EPR Properties/Triple Peaks, Peak Resports, Vail, and KSL.



Unfortunately, I disagree.  Hopefully I'm wrong.


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## tumbler (Aug 23, 2017)

It will be intersting to see how these large companies play out.  They can only get so big before the losses become too large and start selling.  Tough business to make money in.  It will be good short term for infrastructure improvements but history seems to prove that the ski industry is not one for large companies.


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## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

How many large multi resort companies have go out of business? I can honestly only think of one.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 23, 2017)

Vail is a publicly traded company.  It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.)  I think they will be ok.


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## dlague (Aug 23, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Vail is a publicly traded company.  It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.)  I think they will be ok.



I agree - with season pass sales already 10% ahead of last year where they sold 650,000 season passes, they are well on their way.  What I thought was interesting is that they still had about 85 million in lift ticket sales above the season pass sales.


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## Smellytele (Aug 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> I agree - with season pass sales already 10% ahead of last year where they sold 650,000 season passes, they are well on their way.  What I thought was interesting is that they still had about 85 million in lift ticket sales above the season pass sales.



More season passes than dailies. 650k vs ~515k($165 per ticket)


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## chuckstah (Aug 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> More season passes than dailies. 650k vs ~515k($165 per ticket)


But many  tickets, advance purchase, fringe season, multi day etc were purchased much cheaper than $165. Likely a majority. 

Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 24, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Vail is a publicly traded company.  It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.)  I think they will be ok.



Those numbers are true and accurate, but one cannot conclude they are OK just by looking at them alone.  If it took $5B in debt to generate that net income and op cash flow (which doesn't include interest payments), then Vail would be in a dire state indeed.  That's not the case here - they will be OK - but it's not b/c they had $150M in net income.


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## dlague (Aug 24, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> But many  tickets, advance purchase, fringe season, multi day etc were purchased much cheaper than $165. Likely a majority.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app



plus childrens tickets


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## dlague (Aug 24, 2017)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Those numbers are true and accurate, but one cannot conclude they are OK just by looking at them alone.  If it took $5B in debt to generate that net income and op cash flow (which doesn't include interest payments), then Vail would be in a dire state indeed.  That's not the case here - they will be OK - but it's not b/c they had $150M in net income.




In this case gross revenues were $1,601,286 so net income was over 9%.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2017)

mbedle said:


> How many large multi resort companies have go out of business? I can honestly only think of one.



ASC
Intrawest had some SERIOUS financial issues
Booth Creek is all but gone


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## Jully (Aug 25, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> ASC
> Intrawest had some SERIOUS financial issues
> Booth Creek is all but gone



Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.


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## dlague (Aug 25, 2017)

Jully said:


> Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.



Agreed,  Was about to respond and saw your post!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2017)

Jully said:


> Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.



Endured, sure.  Booth Creek went from several resorts down to one or two.  In fact, it doesn't even own Grand Targhee.  Gilett bought it for himself and his family from BC.  BC is barely a shadow of its former self. 

Intrawest was in serious financial trouble and got an injection of capital, but again, it also is much smaller after selling Whistler to a rival.


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## mbedle (Aug 25, 2017)

The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.


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## benski (Aug 25, 2017)

mbedle said:


> The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.



I know there are snow insurance policies. Mountain Creek had one where they got some money if there were not enough days where they could make snow.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2017)

mbedle said:


> The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.



That was the idea with ASC. Until winter was bad on both coasts and the market crashed.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Aug 27, 2017)

Its definitely the idea with Vail, they specifically called it out with the purchase of Whistler.


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## slatham (Aug 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That was the idea with ASC. Until winter was bad on both coasts and the market crashed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I think there was a lot of imprudent, debt fueled expansion in ASC's formula for failure......


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## Jully (Aug 27, 2017)

slatham said:


> I think there was a lot of imprudent, debt fueled expansion in ASC's formula for failure......



Absolutely. Real estate and direct ski area expansion


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## thetrailboss (Aug 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Its definitely the idea with Vail, they specifically called it out with the purchase of Whistler.



Maybe for that one purchase, but the cornerstone of their growth has been the Epic Pass.  Then they expanded into the Midwest to capture a "feeder" market.  The last year or so we've seen them go outside their focus areas to buy Whistler and then Stowe.  Their big play has been to get folks in the big cities to buy season passes.  Not to spread resorts out over the country.  Most of their big resorts remain clustered in Colorado and California with one in Utah, one in BC, and now one in Vermont.  It's different than ASC which had a large presence on both coasts.    



slatham said:


> I think there was a lot of imprudent, debt fueled expansion in ASC's formula for failure......



Absolutely.  They were a product of the 1990's rapid growth.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2017)

mbedle said:


> *ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned.* I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business.



Stick around a while.


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