# You’re out of Control



## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 15, 2008)

Well maybe not, but you’re flying down the side of a trail and you need a couple of turns to slow down for a safe stop. You go around a slight bend and there’s someone right in your line that you either didn’t see or couldn’t. You see the fear in their eyes and you only have a split second to react. 

Do you protect yourself the best you can for the impact?

Do you try to get by in the little gap between the skier and the trees? You might make it, you might eat wood.

Do you try to turn out the other side into other skier traffic?

What would you do? The true answer is you don’t know cause you have no time to think you just have to react or not and plow right into the person.

So my question is who’s been there and what happened in your case?


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## wa-loaf (Aug 15, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> So my question is who’s been there and what happened in your case?



I blew my ACL.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

I'd rather crash into the person than crash into a tree...but I would most likely shred the needle between the person and the woods..that sort of thing happens to me quite a bit because I like to ski fast.  Gapers always seem to stop right around a blind corner..yet the uphill skier is at fault..


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

I hate the grey areas of "The code"....



GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Gapers always seem to stop right around a blind corner..  *Item 3*
> yet the uphill skier is at fault.. *Item 2*



Who wins?



1 Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
*2 People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.*
*3 You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.*
4 Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
5 Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
6 Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
7 Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
http://www.nsp.org/1/nsp/Safety_Information/YourResponsibilityCode.asp


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'd rather crash into the person than crash into a tree...but I would most likely shred the needle between the person and the woods..*that sort of thing happens to me quite a bit because I like to ski fast.*  Gapers always seem to stop right around a blind corner..yet the uphill skier is at fault..



OK, then give an example and say how you reacted and what the consequences where.


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## Sky (Aug 15, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> I blew my ACL.



...and it made a terrible sound.

I had a kid pull a hockey stop right in front of me a few years back.  We weren't going fast and I shouldn't have been coming up on him like that.

Fortunatley, there was tons of room on either side of him AND I had the right skis on that day...so I missed him.

I don't trust anyone in frot of me (well...except for the race team folks and they'll tell you (correctly) that I don't really have much choice in the matter *smirk*)...it's defensive posture most of the time.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 15, 2008)

haven't had to make that choice in 32 years of skiing...I've been hit a handfull of times though.  If I'm going that fast I'm not going to come around the corner on the inside...I'll go wider.  If that scenario did happen I'd react without thinking...it would either be left or right, not the collision course.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

I feel like the gaper always wins if the Ski Patroller is called..At least at Blue mountain..the skilled skiers are the ones who get in trouble..when in fact the ski patroller should be after the gapers not following the Skiers Responsibility code.


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

If it's my fault I take the fall..

If it's not and your not a kid or a woman...  Chances are your going down before me...


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I feel like the gaper always wins if the Ski Patroller is called..At least at Blue mountain..the skilled skiers are the ones who get in trouble..when in fact the ski patroller should be after the gapers not following the Skiers Responsibility code.



Hunter Ski Patrollers will question why the gaper was on a expert trail to begin with...


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> I hate the grey areas of "The code"....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


everyone loses.


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> If that scenario did happen I'd react without thinking...it would either be left or right, not the collision course.



what if your jammed against the treeline...?


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> everyone loses.



yup...  I've made many internet enemies arguing this point..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> OK, then give an example and say how you reacted and what the consequences where.



O.K. skiing down Razors Edge at Blue at about 50mph..one of my famous..NT (No Turns) runs straight down..I am about 2/3 of the way down and a skier standing on the side of the trail without looking up..traverses right across the trail and we pretty much bump boots..he goes down and does a complete starfish..I hold it together and ski the rest of the run..When I am skiing fast I don't want to stop..Throwing a sideways Hockey Stop at Full Speed is no fun..anyway with skiing I take my chances..and thread the needle a whole lot..especially at Blue mountain where the runs are crowded with Nubs..I am comfortable skiing between two people 3-4 feet apart at high speeds..but they don't always appreciate it.  It would be nice if the left side of the trail was reserved for fast skiers and the right side for slow skiers..like a highway..


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> what if your jammed against the treeline...?



then I'd head towards the middle of the trail...if I've got time to "brace for the impact" I've got time to turn


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'd rather crash into the person than crash into a tree...but I would most likely shred the needle between the person and the woods..that sort of thing happens to me quite a bit because I like to ski fast.  Gapers always seem to stop right around a blind corner..yet the uphill skier is at fault..



Stopping where you're not visible = stupid.

Going too fast around a blind corner or rise in the trail also = stupid.

Just like driving, you should be in control with the ability to stop safely if need be when you're around other people.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> If it's my fault I take the fall..
> 
> If it's not and your not a kid or a woman...  Chances are your going down before me...



Fair enough, but how can you determine all that in a second.



dmc said:


> Hunter Ski Patrollers will question why the gaper was on a expert trail to begin with...



Never said expert trail, could be on a green on your way someplace else.


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## ta&idaho (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> Hunter Ski Patrollers will question why the gaper was on a expert trail to begin with...



One huge plus for Hunter is that there is very little overlap between the advanced terrain and the beginner terrain.  The biggest problems seem to happen when advanced trails and beginner trails merge, often in a relatively flat runout area through which many advanced skiers prefer to maintain fairly significant speed.  Ski patrol justifiably cuts you more slack when you stick to advanced-only areas, like the F lift and the West side.


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## tjf67 (Aug 15, 2008)

I go pretty fast when I ski and I always try to make sure that I can stop if I have to.  Only been in that situation once.  I still feal bad about it.  Came flying into the lift line at the bottom of six.  There were people there and one zigged when I thought he was going to zag.  Caught him with my shoulder right in his chest.  I was almost stopped but still sent him flying.  

It was my fault 100%.

Have never done it since. Extra careful down by the lifts


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'm so great..I'm awesome... I'm steezy fast..everyone is a gaper...me me me I I I'm me Mine my my own me me mine I I I I I'm me Mine mine me me me mine mine me me I'm in love with myself, me me me i i i i me me mine mine i me mine mine Me me its about me mine mine doritos booter gaper gaper gaper doritos mad steezy me me i'm i'm me i i i gaper me gaper gaper mad steezy
> 
> bump




.


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> Stopping where you're not visible = stupid.
> 
> Going too fast around a blind corner or rise in the trail also = stupid.
> 
> Just like driving, you should be in control with the ability to stop safely if need be when you're around other people.



Exactly. I normally ski slower than a dead snail so stopping quickly as needed is not usually a problem for me.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 15, 2008)

2knees said:


> .


Pat you owe me a new keyboard.........:lol:


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> Exactly. I normally ski slower than a dead snail so stopping quickly as needed is not usually a problem for me.



being run over sucks no doubt.  had it happen a few times.  but i cant imagine how one would feel if they plowed into a little kid cause they were skiing so fast that they couldnt stop or avoid them.


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2008)

2knees said:


> being run over sucks no doubt.  had it happen a few times.  but i cant imagine how one would feel if they plowed into a little kid cause they were skiing so fast that they couldnt stop or avoid them.



Just wait until you start skiing with your daughter. Lots of fun worrying about that... :roll:


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## Hawkshot99 (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> O.K. skiing down Razors Edge at Blue at about 50mph..one of my famous..NT (No Turns) runs straight down..I am about 2/3 of the way down and a skier standing on the side of the trail without looking up..traverses right across the trail and we pretty much bump boots..he goes down and does a complete starfish..I hold it together and ski the rest of the run..When I am skiing fast I don't want to stop..Throwing a sideways Hockey Stop at Full Speed is no fun..anyway with skiing I take my chances..and thread the needle a whole lot..especially at Blue mountain where the runs are crowded with Nubs..I am comfortable skiing between two people 3-4 feet apart at high speeds..but they don't always appreciate it.  It would be nice if the left side of the trail was reserved for fast skiers and the right side for slow skiers..like a highway..



First of all you are doing no where near 50 MPH.  You might think so, but  no.  And you hit a person and knock them down you just keep going because this is your "fast run" and you dont like stopping when going fast?  You really are a loser.  No wonder you spend so much time on the internet...........


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## Eski (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> O.K. skiing down Razors Edge at Blue at about 50mph..one of my famous..NT (No Turns) runs straight down..I am about 2/3 of the way down and a skier standing on the side of the trail without looking up..traverses right across the trail and we pretty much bump boots..he goes down and does a complete starfish..I hold it together and ski the rest of the run..When I am skiing fast I don't want to stop..Throwing a sideways Hockey Stop at Full Speed is no fun..anyway with skiing I take my chances..and thread the needle a whole lot..especially at Blue mountain where the runs are crowded with Nubs..I am comfortable skiing between two people 3-4 feet apart at high speeds..but they don't always appreciate it.  It would be nice if the left side of the trail was reserved for fast skiers and the right side for slow skiers..like a highway..



we all take risks on the mountain, but the arrogance of your mindset is a good enough reason for me to not want to revisit the mountain that was once my home turf ... do me a favor and warn us if you ever come to our backyards ... wow


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> Just wait until you start skiing with your daughter. Lots of fun worrying about that... :roll:



I've got some new grey hairs from skiing with my daughter.  I do my best to keep my body between her and the gapers...I'm 6'1 ~210 played rugby for 10 years...I can take a hit, but if someone hit her I'd probably be going to jail...unless it was another kid.  
Skiing with your child certainly gives you a new perspective on speed...


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## Beetlenut (Aug 15, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> ...only have a split second to react.
> 
> Do you try to get by in the little gap between the skier and the trees? You might make it, you might eat wood.
> 
> Do you try to turn out the other side into other skier traffic?


 
I would try the little gap first, then turn out into skier traffic second. I would avoid plowing into someone at all costs, even if it meant risking injury to me. If I was going that fast, which I wouldn't be, I would assume the risks and consequences of my decision to do that.


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> I've got some new grey hairs from skiing with my daughter.  I do my best to keep my body between her and the gapers...I'm 6'1 ~210 played rugby for 10 years...I can take a hit, but if someone hit her I'd probably be going to jail...unless it was another kid.
> Skiing with your child certainly gives you a new perspective on speed...



its a fine line between protective and over protective.  I want my daughter to enjoy skiing and to feel like its a safe and fun activity.  Additionally, i want her to feel the "independence" so to speak that skiing gives all of us.  But when you see the nutbags out there with absolutely no regard for anyone else around them, it makes my blood boil.


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## dmc (Aug 15, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> I've got some new grey hairs from skiing with my daughter.  I do my best to keep my body between her and the gapers...I'm 6'1 ~210 played rugby for 10 years...I can take a hit, but if someone hit her I'd probably be going to jail...unless it was another kid.
> Skiing with your child certainly gives you a new perspective on speed...



No offense to the Dads...

But sometimes this kinda thing gets out of control on advanced trails...
2 young kids "pizza"ing down the slope with mom and dad protecting from behind blocking the trail...  It almost makes it MORE dangerous...


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> No offense to the Dads...
> 
> But sometimes this kinda thing gets out of control on advanced trails...
> 2 young kids "pizza"ing down the slope with mom and dad protecting from behind blocking the trail...  It almost makes it MORE dangerous...



i couldnt agree with you more.  we've all seen the pushy parent taking their kid down a trail they have no business being on.  Problem is, there are alot of morons in the world and they do breed.  Then they're just morons with kids.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 15, 2008)

The ones that scare me the most, are the little kids with the helmets that ski in the snow plow at mach 1. Their head is at knee height, and if they hit you, good bye ACL ! Watched one take out my wife one time from behind. I thought it was funny how it happened, no one got hurt. The wife was not so understanding!


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> No offense to the Dads...
> 
> But sometimes this kinda thing gets out of control on advanced trails...
> 2 young kids "pizza"ing down the slope with mom and dad protecting from behind blocking the trail...  It almost makes it MORE dangerous...



My daughter has not skied much more than a blue, and a mellow one at that. At Sundown, most of the trails funnel into a wide bowl with skiers of all abilities having to ski together. It's scary there sometimes and I will set up a block in that instance.

Parents, usually dads, that put their kids on terrain they do not have the skill to handle are as idiotic as the dopey guy flying barely in control.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

2knees said:


> i couldnt agree with you more.  we've all seen the pushy parent taking their kid down a trail they have no business being on.  Problem is, there are alot of morons in the world and they do breed.  Then they're just morons with kids.



THANK YOU for giving me a good argument for why I shouldn't have kids.  Throwing my genes in the pool would be like throwing a pair of well used Depends into the fountain of youth.  I should remain childless in the interest of public safety and well being.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> No offense to the Dads...
> 
> But sometimes this kinda thing gets out of control on advanced trails...
> 2 young kids "pizza"ing down the slope with mom and dad protecting from behind blocking the trail...  It almost makes it MORE dangerous...



We're not there yet...still in the beginner areas and she's on a harness.  She won't be on advanced trails until she can control her own speed by turning instead of wedging.  And with her, it'd be more likely that she'll be flying down the trail at breakneck speeds with me yelling for her to TURN, TURN, SLOW DOWN...and mom will be too far away to even be heard.  
No offense taken...I agree with you.


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> At Sundown, most of the trails funnel into a wide bowl with skiers of all abilities having to ski together.




Exhibition seems like a parents worst nightmare.


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## bvibert (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> I should remain childless in the interest of public safety and well being.



Please do.  I don't think anyone is arguing that point.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Please do.  I don't think anyone is arguing that point.



Yeah, well you haven't spoken with Meredith recently, have you...


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> Yeah, well you haven't spoken with Meredith recently, have you...



Uh oh... :-o

Everybody head for ze hills. Marc is being talked into procreating... :blink:


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## bvibert (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> Yeah, well you haven't spoken with Meredith recently, have you...



No, but maybe I should.  Sounds like someone needs to talk some sense into her.  Okay, well maybe someone else should do it.  Me and making sense together just doesn't make sense.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

Don't worry, I talked her into late 30's at the earliest.  Still a good 12 years out, anyway.


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## ripzillia (Aug 15, 2008)

Anyone that skis fast (+50 mph and I know how fast that is) on narrow trails with lower skilled ppl isn't that good of a skier to start with. The word Arrogant/Stupid comes to mind. High level Skiers show respect for others.That's why their Pros. Everyone was a beginner at one time,member.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

'Cept for me, I was pretty much born awesome.


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

ripzillia said:


> Anyone that skis fast (+50 mph and I know how fast that is) on narrow trails with lower skilled ppl isn't that good of a skier to start with. The word Arrogant/Stupid comes to mind. High level Skiers show respect for others.That's why their Pros. Everyone was a beginner at one time,member.



In regards to Grilledsneeze over there, he's basically trying to get a rise out of people.  The only time he goes 50mph is when he's chasing the ice cream truck down his street.


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## ripzillia (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> 'Cept for me, I was pretty much born awesome.



:wink:


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## ripzillia (Aug 15, 2008)

2knees said:


> In regards to Grilledsneeze over there, he's basically trying to get a rise out of people.  The only time he goes 50mph is when he's chasing the ice cream truck down his street.


Ahhhhh. An Internet Skier.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> I should remain childless in the interest of public safety and well being.


 
Perhaps some chlorine for your gene pool would help!


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

ripzillia said:


> :wink:



LOL, of all the demotivational posters I've seen, I don't think I've seen that yet.  Wish I had that one full size for my office.


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## Marc (Aug 15, 2008)

Beetlenut said:


> Perhaps some chlorine for your gene pool would help!



Pfft, the only thing that could help at this point is a full flush and refill with the non toxic stuff.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 15, 2008)

Marc said:


> Pfft, the only thing that could help at this point is a full flush and refill with the non toxic stuff.


 
Maybe your good friend Marge could neuter you with her ski! I'd pay to watch that! :wink:


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## hardline (Aug 15, 2008)

Sky said:


> ...and it made a terrible sound.
> 
> I had a kid pull a hockey stop right in front of me a few years back.  We weren't going fast and I shouldn't have been coming up on him like that.
> 
> ...



when my went i was  off in the wwods to the right of CC and the snap was so loud that my friend that was 150ft away thought i broke my leg.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> First of all you are doing no where near 50 MPH.  You might think so, but  no.  And you hit a person and knock them down you just keep going because this is your "fast run" and you dont like stopping when going fast?  You really are a loser.  No wonder you spend so much time on the internet...........




50mph is not that fast on skis..seriously...and you are a loser..and so is 2knees for changing my quote..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> No offense to the Dads...
> 
> But sometimes this kinda thing gets out of control on advanced trails...
> 2 young kids "pizza"ing down the slope with mom and dad protecting from behind blocking the trail...  It almost makes it MORE dangerous...



times 2


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2008)

2knees said:


> In regards to Grilledsneeze over there, he's basically trying to get a rise out of people.  The only time he goes 50mph is when he's chasing the ice cream truck down his street.



ahahahahaha..seriously we need a AZ day with a radar gun someday..you'll be amazed at the speeds reached on icy Blue runs..when straightlining and skiing in a low tuck on well tuned skis..


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## 2knees (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> and you are a loser..and so is 2knees for changing my quote..



watch it or i'll break the Friendship offer you sent to me.  lol


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## ripzillia (Aug 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> ahahahahaha..seriously we need a AZ day with a radar gun someday..you'll be amazed at the speeds reached on icy Blue runs..when straightlining and skiing in a low tuck on well tuned skis..


Sounds like a call out 2knees.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 16, 2008)

2knees said:


> watch it or i'll break the Friendship offer you sent to me.  lol



hehehe


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## Phillycore (Aug 16, 2008)

I try to get by in the little gap between the skier and the trees.


I have to agree with GSS 100% here...    
Probably because I also ski Blue and come into this situation about 10 times a season easily.
The main difference here is that Blue / Camelback / Jack Frost on a weekend are LOADED with people from NYC and Philly (Two of the top 10 largest cities in the U.S.A.) and the majority of those people don't know WTF they are doing,   This leads to gaper hell (especially Blue) and overcrowded slopes.
Now most of the time I try to avoid the mtn. all together during those times, but being a weekend skier the only real option I have is getting there for first chair and leaving when the gaperfest begins to become unruly.
Skiing in the poconos (on a weekend) is a different animal where 100's of people are squeezing onto every foot of anything white making all sorts of erratic turns.  There is no such thing as a line, your line is what is accesible and the gapers are basically human gates that move where they want and stop in the middle of trails to make cell phone calls and at the top of headwalls to side step their way down.

It's more like survival skiing than anything else sometimes...lol


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## kingslug (Aug 16, 2008)

The only one I have ever hit...was my wife. At Windham, she traversed over, right in front of me. There was zero time to stop...and bang. It was pretty bad, total yardsale right under the lift. Knocked me out for a few seconds, bent poles, etc. Then we both got up, and skied down. While riding the lift back up we saw the patrol looking for us at the crash site. Thank god she comes from good Norwegian stock or I would have broken her up. Had I had a chance to think a milisecond though, I would have tried to throw my self down and away from her, hopefully not into traffic.

And yes GSS can ski fast as hell. I don't think 50 is out of the question.


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## drjeff (Aug 16, 2008)

2knees said:


> i couldnt agree with you more.  we've all seen the pushy parent taking their kid down a trail they have no business being on.  Problem is, there are alot of morons in the world and they do breed.  Then they're just morons with kids.



If it's the parents running a blocking position and making themselves really WIDE on an advanced trail, well then shame on them for being the pushy parent and taking their kids on terrain that their not ready yet.

If it's a more advanced skier getter skiing mach 5 down a beginner trail and getting pissed at a parent running blocking position behind their kid,  well then shame on the mach 5 skier in that setting.

With my daughter as she's advanced,  I'll typically use the trails that her instructor(s) have taken her down as a reference for what I'll ski with her while were free skiing.  If I know that I'm going to push her ability a little,  I'll only do it either 1st thing in the AM, or on a midweek day when the chances of us creating a "traffic jam" are way less do to lower slope volume.

As for "kids on a leash",  well one of the first instructors that my daughter had I think put it the best "if your child needs a leash for control, then they shouldn't be on anything but the learning area hill."  Think about it, how many ski school programs to you see where the kids have anything more than a "lifting harness" on them or an "edgie wedgie" for tip control???


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 16, 2008)

Alot of the parents controlling their kids on a leash are pretty bad skiers.  I've seen parents skiing sort of to the side of the kid on the leash...essentially waiting to clothesline someone.


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## dropKickMurphy (Aug 16, 2008)

With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.

Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier?  Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?

People do have a right to take their time on terrain that may be difficult for them. Everyone has to learn, and one of the ways that people learn is to challenge themselves on terrain that is beyond their comfort zone. That doesn't mean they have the right to stop in a blind spot; but they are entitled to some slack if they are trying their best to make their way down the slope. It is your responsibility, as a more skilled skier, to get by them in a safe manner.

Skiing fast is not the sign of an expert. Skiing blind is not the sign of an expert.

An expert is someone who can choose the best line down a challenging slope, and use the appropriate speed and techniques for the situation and conditions. Experts do take risks, and they do make mistakes. But an expert doesn't purposely put other people in danger; which is what you do when you ski an inbounds resort trail at a speed where you cannot avoid a potential collision with an unseen person.


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## JimG. (Aug 16, 2008)

dropKickMurphy said:


> With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.
> 
> Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier?  Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?
> 
> ...



And that's all that needs to be said about this.


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## bvibert (Aug 16, 2008)

dropKickMurphy said:


> With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.
> 
> Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier?  Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?
> 
> ...





JimG. said:


> And that's all that needs to be said about this.



Agreed, very well said dropKickMurphy.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 16, 2008)

dropKickMurphy said:


> With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.
> 
> Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier?  Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?
> 
> ...




I agree...

Skiers need the agility and control to avoid natural, manmade and human hazards.  But if you have a clear ski slope in front of you and want to get in a low aerodynamic tuck ..and ski so fast your helmet vents whistle..I see it as O.K.

I like to ski fast but if the slope is crowded..I switch my style up...for example at Killington in April I was skiing with All-Skiing and MadSkier on Superstar.  The beginning of the run was littered with people and bumpy so I picked a narrow line and stuck in it...then when the run flattens out the trail opened up and there were only a few people so I could ski faster and make wider radius turns..then the bottom section was a cluster-f3ck of people so again..pick a narrow line..make alot of turns..and obvious ski slower..

One of the reasons I like to be at the mountain first is for those early morning uncrowded runs.  First tracks on a groomer is steezy too..especially if you know there isn't a sould in front of you top to bottom.  One of the things that makes skiing out west and up north better is less crowded slopes than here in PA.  But at Stowe and Jackson Hole..there are a few overvcrowded trails an dangerous merges..where you have to stay alert..

I always feel safer skiing in the woods than on the trail.  The few times I've skied with my gaper cousin..I feel it's way more dangerous standing on the side of the trail..halfway down the mountain then any race course.  Part of the reason I wear a helmet is in case some 300 pound guy in an Eagles jacket and frozen jeans plows into me..while I'm adjusting my boot..I'll be less likely to be braindead.  

The more I ski..the more I wait at the top of the run..for a minute to lett the crowds move down the hill a little.  Then I can at least ski fast until I catch up to all the Tom Dick and Harrys..


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## Phillycore (Aug 16, 2008)

FWIW...   I've never plowed anyone (luckily for them I'm not tiny by any means) and I've never been plowed into either.    I have taken a dive once or twice though to save someone from getting plowed when they made a really bad decision. (after all if they are in front of me it's my fault if I hit them no matter what the situation is, therefore I do whatever I possibly can to avoid the collision at all costs even if it means I'm taking the hit) 

As I said before Survival skiing is an absolute must at places in Pa.


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## bigbog (Aug 17, 2008)

*weekends in the NE........*

Weekends at New England resorts has often turned out to be a day-long exercise in varying one's turn radii..:roll: :lol: :lol: ..ready to take a somewhat controlled bellyflop...  Easiest done..(as said)...skier in front has the right-of-way...  I think getting cut off and attempting to maintain your momentum is one of the many causes of those late-afternoon, edge-of-trail crashes...I ended up going there ~7-8 seasons ago, late in the day..icy hardpack...poor tune..getting tired..didn't slow down enough for a comfortable, wide pass of beginner who traverses instead of edges..*EDIT:.._and stay in control_.   Didn't have quite enough speed to reach the trees....but I would've been close had I not had the brilliant deduction to just take a flop.


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## Stache (Aug 17, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I feel like the gaper always wins if the Ski Patroller is called..At least at Blue mountain..the skilled skiers are the ones who get in trouble..when in fact the ski patroller should be after the gapers not following the Skiers Responsibility code.




Skilled (and courteous and smart and considerate) skiers know to never ski faster than they can see. Kind of like driving at night, stay within your headlights reach. ALWAYS be able to turn or stop and avoid ANY STUPID people in front of you. If you hit them, or a lift tower, IT IS YOUR FAULT!


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 18, 2008)

drjeff said:


> As for "kids on a leash",  well one of the first instructors that my daughter had I think put it the best "if your child needs a leash for control, then they shouldn't be on anything but the learning area hill."  Think about it, how many ski school programs to you see where the kids have anything more than a "lifting harness" on them or an "edgie wedgie" for tip control???



When you're dealing with a 2 1/2 yr a leash comes in handy and has helped her learn edging movements and develop muscle memory...and many ski school programs won't take kids before 3yrs old...those kids you're referring to are 4/5/6.  Leash is also a 1:1 ratio...something you're not going with a typical ski school program.  As long as its not used as a crutch, its a handy tool for age specific development.


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## drjeff (Aug 18, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> When you're dealing with a 2 1/2 yr a leash comes in handy and has helped her learn edging movements and develop muscle memory...and many ski school programs won't take kids before 3yrs old...those kids you're referring to are 4/5/6.  Leash is also a 1:1 ratio...something you're not going with a typical ski school program.  As long as its not used as a crutch, its a handy tool for age specific development.



If your kid's on a leash, you shouldn't be up on anything else than the beginner hill.  An "edgie wedgie" and lots of laps on a flat magic carpet hill at first and then a slightly steeper magic carpet after that is what my kids went through for muscle memory/initial balance/ski movement learning.  The toughest part for me as a parent with this was showing the restraint to keep my kids on the proper hill until *THEY* were ready for something bigger/steeper.

I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it.  It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest.  Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would.  Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent


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## Greg (Aug 18, 2008)

drjeff said:


> I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it.  It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest.  Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would.  Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent



In most cases, this is probably true. Every kid is different though. My oldest is initially very shy, until she warms up to the situation (then look out!). I put her in the Puffins camp at Sundown right as she was turning 4. It was her first time on skis. She *did not* like it and really didn't get much out of it. Half the time she just ended up watching the other kids with her skis off.

I gave her the benefit of the doubt that season and figured she needed to mature a bit. This past spring a few months after turning 5, I enrolled her in a session of mini bears at Sugarbush which is regarded pretty highly as a ski school. Very similar result. She was beyond a lot of what they were teaching her and just didn't want to be there. She was crying when I picked her up from her lesson. She told me she just wants to ski with me so I took her up on the hill and she did some of her best skiing to date.

A lot of the initial ski "experience" is just hanging out with dad. Sometimes there's not even a whole lot of skiing involved. I plan to simply ski with my oldest, and ask her when she's ready to take a lesson again. For my youngest, I'll attempt the lesson route since again, all kids are different.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 18, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Well maybe not, but you’re flying down the side of a trail and you need a couple of turns to slow down for a safe stop. You go around a slight bend and there’s someone right in your line that you either didn’t see or couldn’t. You see the fear in their eyes and you only have a split second to react.
> 
> Do you protect yourself the best you can for the impact?
> 
> ...



Something similar happened to me(@Greek) but at a moderate to slow speed. My buddy and I were straight lining a flat side by side discussing whetther or not we wanted to take a cut off trail over to chair 4. We were following a group of 3, one "safety ranger" and two others. We decided we would be heading over to chair 4, so the cut off was necessary, and so was speed to get over to the next pitch without skating. Not rippin speed by any means just a comfy stand up and cruise it. The peeps in front of us decided to stop right in the entrance of this trail which we needed to hit. I was going first so I was able to duck into the woods and pop up on the other side of them. My buddy tried the same and for the most part did a good job but did run over the tail of the "safety rangers" skis. Alot was said, but the jist of it was they knew they shouldn't have stopped there and we knew we were follwing too close. Stuff like that happens and I'm glad nobody got hurt.


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## Highway Star (Aug 18, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> First of all you are doing no where near 50 MPH.  You might think so, but  no.  And you hit a person and knock them down you just keep going because this is your "fast run" and you dont like stopping when going fast?  You really are a loser.  No wonder you spend so much time on the internet...........




Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion.  Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes.  However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.

I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 18, 2008)

drjeff said:


> If your kid's on a leash, you shouldn't be up on anything else than the beginner hill.  An "edgie wedgie" and lots of laps on a flat magic carpet hill at first and then a slightly steeper magic carpet after that is what my kids went through for muscle memory/initial balance/ski movement learning.  The toughest part for me as a parent with this was showing the restraint to keep my kids on the proper hill until *THEY* were ready for something bigger/steeper.
> 
> I know that I'm going to catch some sh$t for this next statement, but as a parent I strongly believe that unless you're a PSIA instructor, one of the best things you can do for you're childs ski development is let the pro's handle it.  It's great to ski with your kids, but as a primary teacher, even if your a great skier, you probably don't have the knck and/or patience to teach your child in the maner with which he/she will respond and progress the quickest.  Even with the majority of the children's instructors being non PSIA former racers that have minimal instructor training, they still see ALOT of kids, and the vast majority of them tend to pick up on what works/doesn't with the kids alot quicker than you as an untrained, but yet highly skillfull parent would.  Plus, many kids are going to listen better to the instructor than you as a parent



1.  never said she was on anything other than learning area terrain...and in previous posts in this thread I mentioned she WONT be on any more advanced terrain until she can control her own speed by turning and can stop on her own.
2.  You may have missed the part in the last post where I said the ski school (Sunday River) wouldn't take her until she was 3
3.  I'm a former level 2..but she'll be getting out with ski school programs this winter because I agree, most kids will listen better to someone else


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

Highway Star said:


> Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion.  Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes.  However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.
> 
> I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...



I think the fastest I ever hit was near the bottom of the Sundance Trail at Jackson Hole.  It's a groomed Blue from off the Gondola...My helmet vents usually start to whistle when I hit top speeds at Blue mountain..50+ mph and usually when I ski Sundance my helmet whistles the entire run.  I usually make some big Super G turns at the top and check my speed a bit so I don't get too much air off the couple of cat-tracks..then the bottom half which is free of cat-tracks I just straight run and get low..some serious speed..a great first run of the day on a non powder day..and 2700+ vert was faster than a 3 minute song on my Ipod...mad steezy yo..Those sorts of runs is how I once skied 37,000 vert before lunch on a mad steezy hardpack day in 2007 when I racked up 61k+ vert.  Reason to bring a two ski bag to J-hole..for fat skis and ice coast carvers..

My friend Mark who goes to Green Mountain College let me use his GPS for a run on a cruddy foggy spring day at Stowe.  My max speed was 43mph just making wide controlled turns..which is what my comfort zone was due to the fog and spring slop..and it didn't feel that fast.  I need to get a GPS for this season for sure...we really need to do an AZ radar gun day like they do at Snowbird over on Teton Gravity..


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## 2knees (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> .My helmet vents usually start to whistle when I hit top speeds at Blue mountain..




that wasnt the vents on your helmet whistling......


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## 2knees (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I My max speed was 43mph .



I'm pretty sure you meant 43kph.  Its ok though.  we understand.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

2knees said:


> I'm pretty sure you meant 43kph.  Its ok though.  we understand.



quit trolling...43mph is not even Super G speed...just big wide turns..I love how when you lay down a hard carve..you accelerate..mad steezy yo..

skiing groomers real fast is a guilty pleasure of mine like 80s music and fat chicks..


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## 2knees (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> quit trolling...:



lol alright alright.

i wanted to see you have a meltdown.


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## Geoff (Aug 18, 2008)

Highway Star said:


> Hummm....while I can't speak for Mr. Cheesesandwich, I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion.  Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes.  However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.
> 
> I've skied Blue Mountain once, and most certainly broke 50mph several times...



That's a head-to-head I'd pay good money to see.  Highway Star vs GrilledSteeze/Dougie.   I suspect Highway Star would win based on pure fitness level.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

Geoff said:


> That's a head-to-head I'd pay good money to see.  Highway Star vs GrilledSteeze/Dougie.   I suspect Highway Star would win based on pure fitness level.



I don't know...Highway Star sometimes skis 70mph..that's scary fast..


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## campgottagopee (Aug 18, 2008)

Highway Star said:


> I can tell you that I constantly ski groomers in the 35-50mph range, up to 60mph fairly often, and over 70mph on occasion.  Yes, this is on a normal, groomed slope, in normal ski clothes.  However, it's on long, metal-laminate skis, and a black/double black trail.



uke::-o


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

Is highwaystar the dude with all the corvettes???


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## hardline (Aug 18, 2008)

last winter i found my average speed to be about 35mph. on big open groomers 50 seems to be about normal. when you start laying trenches at those speeds the g's are amazing. nothing like having your chest inches off the snow at that speed.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

hardline said:


> last winter i found my average speed to be about 35mph. on big open groomers 50 seems to be about normal. when you start laying trenches at those speeds the g's are amazing. nothing like having your chest inches off the snow at that speed.



There are a few snowboarders on carving set-ups with hardboots at Blue mountain who are simply amazing to watch..they take getting low to a whole new level...I love G forces from a hard carve on hardpack or cord...and it's cool to do it right under the lift so you can look at the railroad tracks on the way up..


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## mountainman (Aug 18, 2008)

*Very well put.*



dropKickMurphy said:


> With few exceptions (such as a closed race course), anytime you can not stop within the terrain that is visible to you, you are skiing out of control. You are on terrain and/or you are going at a speed that is beyond your ability. That's worse than being a gaper.
> 
> Think about it. What if the stationary object beyond your view on the expert trail isn't a clueless gaper? What if it's an injured skier?  Is there any question whose fault it is when you run into him/her then?
> 
> ...



I use to be a groomer at the K. A buddy of mine and me groomed bear mt. We would lay down some nice track. First runs after the A.M. shift was done. We would see who could take the least amount of turns going down Wildfire and Bear Claw. It amazed me sometimes. We knew the trail how it was groomed and nobody was on it. I had a pair of 215's my rocket boards. Fun but safety was first.
To the original post totaly agree with all. As i've gotten older speed has been reduced. My challange is skiing the side of the trails. From the tree line out about 15 ft. Ducking into the trees and back on again enjoying the skiied up stuff being thrown to the sides. There is a way to enjoy this sport safely. 
PLEASE SKI UNDER CONTROL ANYWHERE


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## hardline (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> There are a few snowboarders on carving set-ups with hardboots at Blue mountain who are simply amazing to watch..they take getting low to a whole new level...I love G forces from a hard carve on hardpack or cord...and it's cool to do it right under the lift so you can look at the railroad tracks on the way up..



since i come from a racing background its really the only way i know how to ride. all the little jib honks this past winter asked me how the hell i can get so low and turn so tight in soft boots. i started teaching some of the kids that live near my lake house how important carving is and how will let you keep your speed in check on steep trails. in a year or two they maybe ready to start riding some of the stuff at stowe. mini ripers in the woods. dope


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

haha you said jibhonks...you know I invented that term back in 2005..


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## millerm277 (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Is highwaystar the dude with all the corvettes???



No, I think that's Shortski. As for speed, I just bought a cheap speed gun, so I'll actually find out how fast I'm going this year.


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## Geoff (Aug 18, 2008)

millerm277 said:


> No, I think that's Shortski. As for speed, I just bought a cheap speed gun, so I'll actually find out how fast I'm going this year.



Yep.  That would be Shortski


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> haha you said jibhonks...you know I invented that term back in 2005..



just like Al Gore invented the internet :roll:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> just like Al Gore invented the internet :roll:



Seriously..I came up with the term  Jibhonk based on PASRs Jibophonic..before then they were called Jibsters and Park Rats..I over-used the term enough that people are starting to use it more and more.  While we're at it..I'll explain Smartstyle for those who use the park.  Smartstyle is the park version of the Skiers Responsibility code..not to be confused with a haircut chain.. http://www.smartstyle.com

An Orange Oval represents freestyle terrain...If you are colorblind..look for an oval and kids with baggy clothes.  Here are the 4 main smartstyle concepts.  

MAKE A PLAN 
Every time you use freestyle terrain, make a plan for each feature you want to use. Your speed, approach and take off will directly affect your maneuver and landing. 
LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP 
Scope around the jumps first, not over them. Know your landings are clear and clear yourself out of the landing area.  Call your drop in several different languages and sign language.  
EASY STYLE IT 
Start small and work your way up. (Inverted aerials not recommended). 
RESPECT GETS RESPECT 
From the lift line through the park...to the cafeteria to the parking lot to the airport to the internet to the road and especially when scoping out some big dawg booters..with a poppy lit and a mad crispy landing.  All the Boarder-chicks and skier-babes will want to learn about Smartstyle in your mad steezy Hummer H2 parked in the handicapped spot..Remember to help control the pet population..have your pet spayed or neutered..and remember to hug a ski patroller..


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Seriously..I came up with the term  Jibhonk based on PASRs Jibophonic..before then they were called Jibsters and Park Rats..I over-used the term enough that people are starting to use it more and more.  While we're at it..I'll explain Smartstyle for those who use the park.  Smartstyle is the park version of the Skiers Responsibility code..not to be confused with a haircut chain.. http://www.smartstyle.com
> 
> An Orange Oval represents freestyle terrain...If you are colorblind..look for an oval and kids with baggy clothes.  Here are the 4 main smartstyle concepts.
> 
> ...



Only two more posts and you're at 6969...maybe you ought to ask greg to freeze it there...a little freezy for steezy pleazee.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 18, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> Only two more posts and you're at 6969...maybe you ought to ask greg to freeze it there...a little freezy for steezy pleazee.



That's exactly what Bill and Ted would be thinking..ask Rufus..RIP George Carlin..


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## Phillycore (Aug 19, 2008)

Let's just say I've tried to keep up with GSS on Blue's (Challenge and Razor's) where he points them straight and I felt the need to speed check a few times.   I'm not the best skier on here by any means, but I don't suck either and there is no way I would feel comfortable at the speeds he is capable of skiing comfortably.  When it comes to speed and control... he has it.     (Oh crap I just pumped his ego up even more)


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