# A night in the life of a Mt. Ellen groomer...



## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

Warning: Obnoxiously long post below!  You are about to learn what a whole grooming shift is like.  Read on at your own risk!


The Smuggs article was interesting, and I figured I could go ahead and put together a little bit of a more realtime description of what actually goes on at night.  It's so common for the recreational skier to have absolutely no idea what happens after the lifts close at 4.  When they're all heading the bar/hotel/whatever at the end of their day, our day is just getting started!

3:45PM -- Arrive at vehicle maintenance shop.  At this point, we punch in, review the night's grooming plan, get the machines running and warmed up, and then do a pre-operations inspection of the snowcats.  We check ATF for the hydraulic/hydrostat system, we check engine oil, light operation, track tension, and check for general integrity of the frame and implements.  After the pre-ops, we head back into the shop and discuss anything of note for the evening, i.e. dumpster transports, building start ramps for a race, specific patterns, etc.  We usually have about 20 minutes or so just to stand around and BS before sweeps come down.

4:40PM -- Patrol sweeps are down and the mountain is clear.  Now the fun begins.  We hop in the cats, and start making our way up the mountain.  Depending on what trails are on the plan, we may groom as a pair, or individually.  The biggest chunks of acreage, such as Inverness, we work on together.  Inverness is 12 passes wide, and each loop with the base area takes a good 35 minutes.  We also grooming Northway and the Expressway in conjunction with Inverness.  Other trails we split up and do some work ourselves.  For the most part, this is the "daily grind" of grooming.  But there are plenty of exciting nights, especially freegrooming the steeper pitches.

Most folks don't realize that a pitch like the top headwall of Inverness should be winched.  However, because our winch at Mt. Ellen broke down early in the season, we were tasked with freegrooming it every night.  This is okay in medium-hard snow, but a challenge in icy or soft conditions.  If it's icy, the lighter machine could not make it up over the headwall, and slides on the way down the headwall.  In soft snow, neither machine could climb without augering a nice "coffin" into the trail.  So in fresh snow conditions without a hard base a couple inches beneath, we have no choice but to go around and make down passes.  Now there are several problems with this.  First of all, it takes a long time.  Second of all, because skiers spend all day pushing snow downhill, we want to push it back uphill.  But if we can't climb the trail, we don't have a choice.  The third problem is that it can be, how do they say it now, "sketchy" going down over the headwall in deep fresh.  I've gone into many a fun slide.  I use the word fun, but it is also scary.  The trail humps toward the middle on the headwall, so there is a slight sidehill on both sides.  On skiers' left, you slide uncomfortably close to the treeline.  On skiers' right, you slide very much uncomfortably close to one particular lift tower.  Regardless, it's certainly a rush, and there are methods of controlling the slide.  For example, in a moderate slide, increasing ground speed and punching the accelerator may be enough to catch yourself up to your slide.  In a more extreme case, you are forced to resort to techniques such as frame riding and blade steering.  Exciting stuff, really!

And the evening rolls on.  At Mt. Ellen, we usually work one trail/area at a time.  Then:

8:00PM -- Head to the shop or to the Glen House for a lunch break.  We sit down, relax a bit, have a bite to eat, discuss anything of pertinence related to grooming, and then we solve all of the other problems of the world.

8:45 -- Head back out to another section of the mountain.  If we ate at the shop, we usually stay on lower mountain and leave upper for the morning shift.  We would proceed to Cruiser or Which Way or Northstar, depending on the plan.  But there's more to it than that.  Along the way, we have to do the little things, like backing up to each lift, taking care of seemingly unimportant areas like Mainstream and "Time Square" (base of Northridge/Drive of Slidebrook).  Aside from that, we just keep on grooming.  If we ate lunch at Glen House, we proceed to upper mountain, and do Elbow and Upper Rim Run, or just all of Rim Run.  If we don't have Inverness to groom at all, the scene is entirely different, and we can finish most of the main mountain ourselves in one shift.

11:15PM -- Start working our way down the hill.  We head for the fuel pump, proceed to pump 30-50 gallons of diesel in each machine, and then park at the shop.  If the next shift needs both cats, we leave them warm and running.  Otherwise, we shut one down, clean it off (brush/shovel snow), and plug it in.

That's a fairly typical night grooming at Mt. Ellen.

Now, let's have a look at what we do when we are grooming.  It's not just driving over the snow, as many believe it is.  The age old theory is, "if you don't have a full blade of snow all night, you're not grooming!"  We're always pushing snow around.  Pushing it uphill, flattening out the humps and bumps (rarely, of course!), and bringing it back in from the sides.  A busy day can result in tons and tons of snow moving from the middle of the trail to the sides of a trail.  We have to fix that!  Under most circumstances, you are skiing a completely resurfaced trail each day, not just a "tilled" trail.  Lots and lots of blade work!

So here are a few pictures to demonstrate some of what goes on.

In the photo below, I am working a windrow across Rim Run.  I am pulling the excess snow out of the edge, and bringing it back to the middle.  This starts as a very large windrow, and as you work toward the middle, you "dump" some of the snow to fill where the snow was pushed toward the edge.  The result is a resurfaced trail.  You can also work with windrows, even without cutting the edge.  You can blade a little deeper and really turn the snow over, and move it around the trail.








And here is a sort of a "start to finish" set of photos.  This was during a morning shift I worked near the end of the season.  This is Crackerjack.  It's flat, so there's nothing particularly exciting.

Getting started:







Gettin there:







Finished and smooth:







And just for fun, here are some more various grooming photos.


Older PB300:







If a cat doesn't have sticks/paddles, it has a yoke.  Stupid concept, in my opinion, but it gets the job done:







Newer Prinoth BR-350:







Demo PB400 (awesome machine!):







Cab of the PB400:







Tiller on the PB400:








More in the next post......


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

Is that a UFO???  Nope... just the winch cat coming up over Cliffs using my cat as his anchor (pick point):







Another shot of the old PB300:







Sometimes visibility is an issue:







But it is awfully beautiful up there (Panorama):







And we make this stuff called corduroy (I make it all night, and avoid it all day!):












Here I am, sitting in the office:







And here's the old man, still visiting the operator's seat from time to time:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 2, 2009)

nice moustache..do you have to know how to drive a stick shift to drive a groomer?


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> nice moustache..do you have to know how to drive a stick shift to drive a groomer?



Haha... yes, thanks!


Nope on the stick shift.  But you had better be able to multitask, for sure!  It's a lot more demanding than driving a stick.  GSS, if you ever come back to the Bush, you should come up for a cat ride.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 2, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Haha... yes, thanks!
> 
> 
> Nope on the stick shift.  But you had better be able to multitask, for sure!  It's a lot more demanding than driving a stick.  GSS, if you ever come back to the Bush, you should come up for a cat ride.



Sounds good!!!!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

Sweet pics!  Thanks for the narrative.  I personally like that fresh grooming and enjoy looking at the 'Ellen runs at night.  I came up and watched you guys work on the evening of March 14th.  Now I know why that cat was struggling up Inverness.  I didn't realize that you needed a winch cat for that.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 2, 2009)

I wish they had a day in the life of a ski sundown groomer


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wish they had a day in the life of a ski sundown groomer



Do those even exist???????  From all that I have seen, they don't!  :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh, and did you see *THIS*, BMM?  

How does the grooming plan differ at Lincoln Peak and how many machines do they run there?  Now this may sound odd, but do you know what they do for the runs that they groom at MRG?


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Sweet pics!  Thanks for the narrative.  I personally like that fresh grooming and enjoy looking at the 'Ellen runs at night.  I came up and watched you guys work on the evening of March 14th.  Now I know why that cat was struggling up Inverness.  I didn't realize that you needed a winch cat for that.



It's pushing 24 or 25 degrees on skiers' right of the headwall.  We could walk right up over it, but forget about tilling or blading unless the snow is hard (but not icy).  Half of the time, we don't even try to touch it with the Edge (see the last photo), because it does not have enough ice caulks in the tracks, and just spins and spins.  The Prinoth climbs it pretty well, but if there is a lot of fresh, forget it!  If you want to have some fun, come watch after a deep snowfall if we're grooming Inverness.  You'll see us creep up over the breakover, and then break loose and slide all the way to the flats below the headwall.  Sometimes we slide sideways.  Other times, we spin all the way around!  Fun stuff!


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## billski (Apr 2, 2009)

The cat I was in had a damn nice stereo inside.  Yours?


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh, and did you see *THIS*, BMM?
> 
> How does the grooming plan differ at Lincoln Peak and how many machines do they run there?  Now this may sound odd, but do you know what they do for the runs that they groom at MRG?



I quit posting on SkiMRV for a variety of reasons, none of which were mentioned there.  No one asked, or even suggested that I leave.  My decision.


Lincoln peak runs 3-4 cats on first shift, and 2-3 on the morning shift.  More on weekends/holidays, fewer toward the end of the season.

I've only ever seen Travis grooming at MRG on the morning shift.  They run an old PB280 with a ton of hours.  No winching, all freegrooming.  And he leaves his damn beacon on all night.  I can see the thing flashing! :wink:


We rarely winch anything other than Inverness at Mt. Ellen (only because we don't generally groom the steeps).  Pick point for Inverness is a specific tree at the top. Cliffs, as you see above, we do half occasionally, and use another cat as a pick point.  We didn't groom FIS/Exterm at all this season, and the snow was much better for it.  As soon as you hit a steep trail with a cat, it skis down to cleat marks the rest of the season.  I am adamantly opposed to grooming steep trails.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

billski said:


> The cat I was in had a damn nice stereo inside.  Yours?



Oh yeah.  Except the old PB300... crappy stereo.  And the speakers are a little funky in the Edge.  But the Prinoth is great!  Even has an aux port!


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

To answer one of the SkiMRV questions, if we did happen to groom the steeper terrain at Mt. Ellen (of the trails that are really "groomable," of course), we would need a winch for Cliffs, Tumbler, Encore, Bravo, Exterminator, FIS.  Lower FIS is usually done with down passes and a huge fricken loop.  But we didn't groom it this year.  Cliffs and Encore can be freegroomed, but usually only downhill.  Exterminator, on hard snow, could probably be groomed downhill.

But remember, we want to move snow uphill, not downhill.  So winching is the only reasonable option to actually accomplish something worthwhile.

But I'm quite happy staying off of that terrain.  As fun as steep grooming is, bumps are much more fun to ski than cord, and trails that we stay off of recover much faster from bad weather, and ski much better imo.


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## Greg (Apr 2, 2009)

Nice job sabotaging that winch.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm surprised that you can use a tree as a pick point.  I would not think that would provide enough stability.  But the winch only acts to help the machine climb, yes?  You would (ideally) never have 16,000 lbs of dead weight on the line at any time I would hope.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

...and speaking of Mount Ellen, I find this trail map to be the most interesting.  From www.sugarbushhistory.com:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 2, 2009)

You have to be very selective about the particular tree you pick from.  You don't want a shallow-rooted tree.  The results are devastating.  I have a picture of what happens, and I'll post it when I find it.  And yes, the capstan winches we use in the industry now are called assist winches, and are usually only rated to about half the weight of the cat.  The rest is still done with ground pressure and track power.  In the days of LMC, they used to use front-mount braden winches, which were full-pull winches.

Ah, yes... Sugarbushhistory.com.  One of these days, I'll do a complete rebuild.  I haven't updated it in over a year :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

I thought that was your site....when I get a chance to do some digging, I may have something to donate to you....circa 1993-1994.  The literature that got me as a teenager psyched about this place called "Sugarbush."


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## drjeff (Apr 2, 2009)

Really cool posts here BMM!


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

GREAT stuff BMM  as a lover of the cord, I  I APPRECIATE what u guys DO  for us!!! The toys u get to play with are awesome 

I'm really interested in not only the photos which are great but also the commentery and learning just how u guys do it .I'd luv to ride one of those big beasts gotta be fun !!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> I'm really interested in not only the photos which are great but also the commentery and learning just how u guys do it .I'd luv to ride one of those big beasts gotta be fun !!



+ 1.


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## Johnskiismore (Apr 2, 2009)

Good stuff, I've always wanted to drive one of those!


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 3, 2009)

Nice pics Patrick! Did you fly into Denver during the big snowstorm? Any word on when Breck is closing?


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## Glenn (Apr 3, 2009)

Awesome pics and writeup Patrick. It's amazing to see what's involved; it's certainly a lot more than dropping the tiller and just making laps up and down the hill all night.


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## AHM (Apr 3, 2009)

*And the best is.............*

skinning the hill at night and getting those fresh groomer lines before anyone gets to them.  But ya gotta be careful over driving your headlamp.  Consequently, I switched from a basic black diamond to my Night Rider mtb head lamp which throws way more light for the ski down.  Great pics BMM.


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## tarponhead (Apr 3, 2009)

That was so cool! Thanks for sharing.

What kinda training you guys do and for how long before they let you solo?


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## ripzillia (Apr 3, 2009)

Couple of questions BMM. Why do you Pre-trip _after_ starting your equipment? Also since the Winch is down can't you winch off a cat on top. We call it top lead winching in the woods. Anyways,thanks for the report operator.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 3, 2009)

ripzillia said:


> Couple of questions BMM. Why do you Pre-trip _after_ starting your equipment? Also since the Winch is down can't you winch off a cat on top. We call it top lead winching in the woods. Anyways,thanks for the report operator.



Engine oil and ATF level are inaccurate until the machine is warm.  Remember, we're talking about very very cold temperatures.

You can't winch without a winch!  It was the actual winch mechanism that failed, not the snowcat.  We took the winch off the cat, and continued to groom with the cat.


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## ripzillia (Apr 3, 2009)

I see. In AK we plugged our equipment in so it was just below op temps. Don't know how you can get an accurate engine Oil reading when it's running. Hydrolics yes. Top lead winching is actually using another piece of equipment to lower you up/down from the top of the grade not a true winch line. +25% grades is seatbelt steep.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 3, 2009)

ripzillia said:


> I see. In AK we plugged our equipment in so it was just below op temps. Don't know how you can get an accurate engine Oil reading when it's running. Hydrolics yes. Top lead winching is actually using another piece of equipment to lower you up/down from the top of the grade not a true winch line. +25% grades is seatbelt steep.



We plug them in as well, but 110v block heater still can't keep the block at operating temperature.  I generally let the cat warm up before checking oil.  Drive to a level spot, shut down, check oil.  

Right, you're describing an LMC braden-mount winch, if I'm not mistaken.  The industry only uses capstan (turret) winches now.  They are only assist winches.  We only use one cat to yoyo around now!


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 3, 2009)

ripzillia said:


> +25% grades is seatbelt steep.



It took a little explaining to one of the mechanics (who does NOT groom!) why the broken harness seatbelt was a priority repair!  Sometimes you just have to take them for a little ride :lol:


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## ripzillia (Apr 3, 2009)

Gottcha. Prolly use Winterized off-road fuel or heated fuel tanks,yes. Keeping any equipment running in Artic weather conditions is hard to do. We use to run Amber and White load lights up in the AK on equipment/trucks much better vis on those winter storm nights. Only ran off the road a few times.:dunce:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 3, 2009)

ripzillia said:


> Gottcha. Prolly use Winterized off-road fuel or heated fuel tanks,yes. Keeping any equipment running in Artic weather conditions is hard to do. We use to run Amber and White load lights up in the AK on equipment/trucks much better vis on those winter storm nights. Only ran off the road a few times.:dunce:



Yeah, we use a winter blend off-road.  We supplement with an additive during extended below-zero periods.

Our light setup, as you can see from the pix, is pretty intense.  The bank of lights on the top of the cab are standard bright headlights.  The larger set below are Xenon.  Powerful little buggers.  Lights it up like daytime!


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## ripzillia (Apr 3, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Yeah, we use a winter blend off-road.  We supplement with an additive during extended below-zero periods.


Back in the day we mixed gasoline w/ diesel for a non-jell. I still remember those motors popping as each cylinder fired. Oh the power of super-cooled air into a twin-turboed CAT motor. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Yeah 25% grades make a beliver out of any nah sayers. 10-4.........


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## drjeff (Apr 5, 2009)

I figure that BMM(and probably a bunch of others here at AZ) would like this pic I took today at Mount Snow






One SWEET machine, the Pisten Bully 400 Edge winchcat!

Mount Snow is hosting the Ski Area Management Magazine Cutter's Camp (first time they've had one in the Northeast) the next couple of days, and a few new demo "toys" were parked in the cat parking lot this weekend.  They also had a brand new Prinoth Bison,  but IMHO, RED cats look a heck of alot better than BLACK cats!


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 5, 2009)

drjeff said:


> I figure that BMM(and probably a bunch of others here at AZ) would like this pic I took today at Mount Snow
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So THAT's the new PB tiller.  You don't happen to have any more photos, do you?  They hadn't released that tiller when we demoed the 400.

That's one sexy machine!  FIRE IN RED!


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## drjeff (Apr 6, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> So THAT's the new PB tiller.  You don't happen to have any more photos, do you?  They hadn't released that tiller when we demoed the 400.
> 
> That's one sexy machine!  FIRE IN RED!



Ask and you shall receive!  Had I only known, I would have taken some SERIOUS tiller close-ups as while I was shooting my kids skiing,  I was maybe 15 feet from the tiller, and I had a serious piece of glass in the camera that could have probably zoomed in close enough to read the serial numbers off it! :lol:

What struck me about the tiller, is how "minimal" it appeared to the PB tiller that Mount Snow has on their this model year 400 and last year's 600.  I remember thinking to myself if it was some type of special "park only" flexible tiller as basically the entire back housing on the other PB tillers in Mount Snow's PB aresenal isn't there, it's just a bunch of tubular frames!





A wee bit of "Bison Love" on the left





The Demo 400w with Mount Snow's 600 in the background - Lots of nice RED!


























I've got a couple of the Bison pushing/leveling out a former skier/border cross course on a now closed for the season trail, but those are "boring" IMHO    Now if the 400w was taking apart that course, totally different level of excitement! :lol:


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## drjeff (Apr 6, 2009)

Here's also a couple of long range(probably shot from about 1/4mile away) of the Prinoth Bison X - with "big brother" pushing some snow.  I couldn't get any really good close up shots of the X, but what struck me when I saw it from the front at a distance of maybe 50 yards, is how narrow the cab is.  Looked to be easily 2 to 3 feet narrower than "big brother Bison" or the BR350.  And that silver paint, it's almost a metallic silver, not bad, but not RED either


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks for the pix!

When you're talking "big brother," are you referring to a standard BR350, or did they have a monster BR500 there?

The Bison X cab is a center seat model, so that probably makes a difference.  From what I've seen, the amount of space used for controls in the cab is extremely minimal compared to other models.  No console.


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## drjeff (Apr 6, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Thanks for the pix!
> 
> When you're talking "big brother," are you referring to a standard BR350, or did they have a monster BR500 there?
> 
> The Bison X cab is a center seat model, so that probably makes a difference.  From what I've seen, the amount of space used for controls in the cab is extremely minimal compared to other models.  No console.



DEFINATELY the standard BR350.  If it was the 500, I would have taken a ton of pics of that monster!


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## billski (Apr 6, 2009)

Under what conditions do you groom in the daytime?


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 6, 2009)

billski said:


> Under what conditions do you groom in the daytime?



At the Bush, the only daytime grooming occurs when icy conditions require that additional grooming happen before opening.  Also, if there is a particularly demanding grooming plan, we might have to delay opening on a trail to complete it in the morning.

Some areas groom 24/7.  Vail Resorts, for example.  They groom all day, all night at Vail, Beaver Creek, and I believe even Breck now has a day shift.  Scary from a risk management perspective, but their theory is that their customers demand it.


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## boze (Apr 7, 2009)

*Breck does groom during normal business hours*

Was out at Breck this President's Week and can confirm they were actively grooming during the day - including some fairly congested spots eg 4 o'clock btwn Mach 1 and Sawmill.  

Thanks for all the terrific info in your posts BMM.  I've been in the cab of machine Alta uses for its cat excursions, and couple trips in the Lincoln Limo main cabin at SB during windholds.  Cool stuff.  Can only imagine doing so at night, in a squall.  You da man.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> nice moustache..



agreed, indeed a mighty fine dirt squirrel ala Tom Selleck


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## bvibert (Apr 7, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Some areas groom 24/7.  Vail Resorts, for example.  They groom all day, all night at Vail, Beaver Creek, and I believe even Breck now has a day shift.  Scary from a risk management perspective, but their theory is that their customers demand it.



Oddly enough; the last two times I was at Magic the groomer lapped the groomed runs all day.


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## Glenn (Apr 8, 2009)

Great pics Jeff! That's some nice machines they had there.


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Great pics Jeff! That's some nice machines they had there.



Check out the superpipe cam on Mount Snow's website from time to time today and you'll see some of the action that's going on at the Cutter's Camp


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## RootDKJ (Apr 8, 2009)

billski said:


> Under what conditions do you groom in the daytime?


Blue Mt does a 4pm grooming to refresh the trails for night skiing.

Piston Bully question - what's the mechanical arm that goes over the top of the cab for?  Is that part of the winch?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2009)

Here's another question:  you said that you need a winch to do Inverness correctly.  Well, what about the headwall on Elbow?  Do you need a winch to do that?  Seems to be pretty steep.  And have you groomed at Lincoln Peak before?  Is that terrain more difficult to groom than Ellen?


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## bvibert (Apr 8, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Piston Bully question - what's the mechanical arm that goes over the top of the cab for?  Is that part of the winch?



Yes, that's for the winch.


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## billski (Apr 8, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Oddly enough; the last two times I was at Magic the groomer lapped the groomed runs all day.



I saw a rather humorous comment on a non-skiing board about Magic (might have been Boston.com).  The writer really expressed his/her ignorance by stating "Magic doesn't care about it's customers" and went on to say that's why they don't groom or make snow, etc. etc.  I didn't even care to reply to that one.


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## Glenn (Apr 8, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Check out the superpipe cam on Mount Snow's website from time to time today and you'll see some of the action that's going on at the Cutter's Camp



Nice! Just took a look! Saw one doing a wheelie! Well, not really...but they area moving around! :lol:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 8, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's another question:  you said that you need a winch to do Inverness correctly.  Well, what about the headwall on Elbow?  Do you need a winch to do that?  Seems to be pretty steep.  And have you groomed at Lincoln Peak before?  Is that terrain more difficult to groom than Ellen?



Elbow is not as steep as the I headwall, but given a BIG snowfall, it also comes out better with the winch.  But due to the turns, you can't just hook up at the top and groom the whole trail.  We usually patch it together downhill if it's too soft to climb.  Might take a couple of cleanup passes, but it comes out pretty good.  The I headwall is impossible to make "clean" on downhill passes if there is a big dump.

Haven't groomed at LP, but I'm very familiar with the terrain.  Both mountains have challenging areas to groom.  I wouldn't say one is necessarily more "difficult" than the other.  It is more dependent on what trails show up on the grooming plan.  For example, if we have Cliffs, Walt's (much harder to groom than you'd think!), Semi-Tough, plus the usual stuff, our night will be more difficult than a normal night at LP.  Likewise, if they have Moonshine, Domino, and Ripcord on their plan, their night is more difficult.  But in terms of terrain, there is plenty of challenge on both sides.  We just tend to leave the bumps alone more at Mt. Ellen for operating philosophy reasons.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Elbow is not as steep as the I headwall, but given a BIG snowfall, it also comes out better with the winch.  But due to the turns, you can't just hook up at the top and groom the whole trail.  We usually patch it together downhill if it's too soft to climb.  Might take a couple of cleanup passes, but it comes out pretty good.  The I headwall is impossible to make "clean" on downhill passes if there is a big dump.
> 
> Haven't groomed at LP, but I'm very familiar with the terrain.  Both mountains have challenging areas to groom.  I wouldn't say one is necessarily more "difficult" than the other.  It is more dependent on what trails show up on the grooming plan.  For example, if we have Cliffs, Walt's (much harder to groom than you'd think!), Semi-Tough, plus the usual stuff, our night will be more difficult than a normal night at LP.  Likewise, if they have Moonshine, Domino, and Ripcord on their plan, their night is more difficult.  But in terms of terrain, there is plenty of challenge on both sides.  We just tend to leave the bumps alone more at Mt. Ellen for operating philosophy reasons.



Interesting.  Why is Walt's difficult to groom?  It's narrowness?  

And I think that Mount Ellen's terrain mix was right on this season.  Which Way is better as a bump run/half-half than groomed.  It has some weird pitches.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 8, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Why is Walt's difficult to groom?  It's narrowness?
> 
> And I think that Mount Ellen's terrain mix was right on this season.  Which Way is better as a bump run/half-half than groomed.  It has some weird pitches.



No, narrowness isn't a problem.  It's just weird.  There are some very sharp curves that are quite a challenge, and if the snow is soft, you track right down to dirt.  In soft snow, you have to work a lot in up-pressure and use your tiller to steer, otherwise you dig in around all of the big turns, and even just climbing some of the steeper pitches.  It's also just a pain in general.  Half of it is 4 passes, and the other half is 6 passes.  But those halves are split up all around the trail.  So you end up putting in extra passes all over the place.  It takes quite a long time to groom.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2009)

I would have never known that if you hadn't said it.  As a skier, Walt's is a fun trail and I always thought, "huh, this must not be too difficult to groom" because it isn't steep.  Interesting.  That explains why it isn't groomed as often.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 8, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I would have never known that if you hadn't said it.  As a skier, Walt's is a fun trail and I always thought, "huh, this must not be too difficult to groom" because it isn't steep.  Interesting.  That explains why it isn't groomed as often.



Usually the problem is lack of cover.  We don't mind doing it... it's a welcome change of pace.  But there really has to be enough cover, or we'll definitely dig up some dirt on the turns!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 8, 2009)

bump..wait this a grooming thread..doh!!!!!


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## RootDKJ (Apr 8, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> bump..wait this a grooming thread..doh!!!!!


witty


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## win (Apr 8, 2009)

Two years ago someone once asked me in all seriousness if we ever groomed Rumble. That would be the most challenging of all for BMM, and he would likely have a PB 300 in Rumble woods for the rest of the century.:flame:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 8, 2009)

They could groom Rumble with a skinny winchcat..maybe hold slaloms on it..very progressive..


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 9, 2009)

win said:


> Two years ago someone once asked me in all seriousness if we ever groomed Rumble. That would be the most challenging of all for BMM, and he would likely have a PB 300 in Rumble woods for the rest of the century.:flame:



Ooooooo... is that a challenge??? Do I have your permission to try?????? :wink:

Actually, at an average width of 15', with some sections substantially narrower, you couldn't even take an alpine-width cat down Rumble!  But the steep section of Rumble is very short.  The rest would be easy, with an extra 5' of width on the trail!

Maybe with the old 280 and a 12' roller!!!!!  What do you say, Win?


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## bvibert (Apr 9, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Ooooooo... is that a challenge??? Do I have your permission to try?????? :wink:
> 
> Actually, at an average width of 15', with some sections substantially narrower, you couldn't even take an alpine-width cat down Rumble!  But the steep section of Rumble is very short.  The rest would be easy, with an extra 5' of width on the trail!
> 
> Maybe with the old 280 and a 12' roller!!!!!  What do you say, Win?



Make sure you have someone taking pictures/video!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2009)

So instead of a ski-off, we have a groom-off?????


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## drjeff (Apr 9, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Make sure you have someone taking pictures/video!




Exactly!  You'd want quite a few camera's mounted to that cat, including one pointed directly at BMM's face for that one!  :lol:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 9, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Exactly!  You'd want quite a few camera's mounted to that cat, including one pointed directly at BMM's face for that one!  :lol:



Wanna ride along??? :lol: -- You'd piss yourself :lol:


Still waiting for the go-ahead from Win! :wink:


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 9, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Exactly!  You'd want quite a few camera's mounted to that cat, including one pointed directly at BMM's face for that one!  :lol:



DO IT----- DO IT --------DO it 

BMM we're counting on ya  Get Win in that beast too   then lets see that Dirt squirrel twitch with excitement over the throw down    challenge


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 9, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> DO IT----- DO IT --------DO it
> 
> BMM we're counting on ya  Get Win in that beast too   then lets see that Dirt squirrel twitch with excitement over the throw down    challenge



Here's the deal: if I do it, Win has to do it too! 

I'll only do it if I can freegroom it with rolling stock.  No winch.  No tiller.  Just me, a cat, and a roller.  And Win can come along for the ride!


Yeah.  That'll be the day!


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## Chris I (Apr 9, 2009)

you're from leadvegas???


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 9, 2009)

Chris I said:


> you're from leadvegas???



Wait, so I'm not the only one who calls it Leadvegas?  I mean... the Leadvegas Strip has everything: Safeway, Liquor Store, and the bowling alley.  Yeah.

Actually, I'm going to school at Colorado Mountain College in Leadville.  Graduate in May.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 9, 2009)

This is a great thread.  Educational and entertaining at the same time.


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## drjeff (Apr 9, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Wanna ride along??? :lol: -- You'd piss yourself :lol:
> 
> 
> Still waiting for the go-ahead from Win! :wink:



I'll grab one of my kids huggies pull ups and hop in the passengers seat in a second BMM!  Just would want to double check the harness for the seat 1st!  :lol:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 9, 2009)

drjeff said:


> I'll grab one of my kids huggies pull ups and hop in the passengers seat in a second BMM!  Just would want to double check the harness for the seat 1st!  :lol:



Hahahaha... harness!  No, no.  Not in the cat I would use for Rumble.  No harness in that one!  Just a lap belt!  Hold on tight!  And make sure that pair of pull ups is well secured!


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## drjeff (Apr 10, 2009)

Hey BMM, the Demo PB 400W is still at Mount Snow, and parked right near where I drop my kids off for their programs.  I took a few close ups of PB's new tiller that I'll post later this evening once peace and quiet is achieved at my place in the form of 2 sleeping kids


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## drjeff (Apr 10, 2009)

New new PB tiller






A closer view





A demo 400.  Possibly the same one that BMM got to use up at Sugarbush??





The Bison X getting loaded on the trailer for the ride back to Prinoth





The PB Scout, or as my daughter called, the "cute baby pisten bully"


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the pix. That Z-Flex definitely resembles the Prinoth tiller in some ways.

The PB400 in the other pick may be the same cat that I demoed, but not the same tiller.  That's the other new tiller.  The AlpineFlex with the hydraulic wings and the new cutter bars.


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## vertmont (Apr 11, 2009)

*Seat belt harness.*

Only time i used mine was winching Lower Ovation at the K. Seat belts in cats overrated.


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## drjeff (Apr 11, 2009)

drjeff said:


> DEFINATELY the standard BR350.  If it was the 500, I would have taken a ton of pics of that monster!



BMM, I've got to eat my words on this one above.  After talking with one of the mountain ops guys at Mount Snow today, turns out that the black prinoth IS the 500!  Kind of suprised me after hearing this, since after reading all the hype about how huge the 500 is, I would have kind of expected it to be bigger than it appears, heck parked directly infront of the PB400W, the track with on the 500 isn't dramatically different than the PB400W.

I'll try and grab a few pics of them next to each other later today.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 11, 2009)

drjeff said:


> BMM, I've got to eat my words on this one above.  After talking with one of the mountain ops guys at Mount Snow today, turns out that the black prinoth IS the 500!  Kind of suprised me after hearing this, since after reading all the hype about how huge the 500 is, I would have kind of expected it to be bigger than it appears, heck parked directly infront of the PB400W, the track with on the 500 isn't dramatically different than the PB400W.
> 
> I'll try and grab a few pics of them next to each other later today.



Well, it might not look that wide, but it is wide enough that it doesn't fit in most ski area shops.


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## drjeff (Apr 11, 2009)

Pics of the 500


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## Rambo (Apr 11, 2009)

About how much does one of these Pisten Bully 400 - Machines as equipped and pictured here go for??


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 12, 2009)

Without divulging any proprietary information, think mid $200,000s


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2009)

A news article I saw this year about Prinoth's "The Beast" (the 500) had the price tag on that one at around 400k!    It better be able to lay down ALOT of cord EVERY night for that!


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## ripzillia (Apr 12, 2009)

So you want to go steep eh? Come on over to Orygon and go for a ride in a log truck for a day.;-) Bring an extra pair of shorts. The Bar-ditch is your friend. That's a sweet red PB.8)


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## Rambo (Apr 12, 2009)

Does anybody know about what year ski areas begain using the modern snow grooming equipment that we see today? I mean the sno-cats with the wide tracks, turbo charged diesel engines, the multi-angle hydraulic front plows and the rear hydro-tillers.

I remember getting to Elk Mountain (PA) early 1 sat. about 1980 and a sno-cat with narrower tracks and a gas engine was pulling a long concerte drum with ridges in it to groom the slopes.


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## Rambo (Apr 12, 2009)

Rambo said:


> Does anybody know about what year ski areas begain using the modern snow grooming equipment that we see today? I mean the sno-cats with the wide tracks, turbo charged diesel engines, the multi-angle hydraulic front plows and the rear hydro-tillers.
> 
> I remember getting to Elk Mountain (PA) early 1 sat. about 1980 and a sno-cat with narrower tracks and a gas engine was pulling a long concerte drum with ridges in it to groom the slopes.



Well I found this pic on the net from about 1960, a Tucker Sno-Cat grooming with 1 of those groved concrete drums:


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## ripzillia (Apr 12, 2009)

The Sewdish Sno-Cat was billt in 1957 so that's about there era for snoecats. Here's a few links to cats and a cool move about the SnowTrain. Largest built ever.
http://www.trakkemaskin.no/default.asp?cid=8&ar=100&obv=1&lang=en

http://snowcats.tahoebasin.com/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=da8ba35f463b2175f2e8a27e49fae345

http://www.sotc.com/snowcats-historical.html

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/archive/index.php/f-68.html

http://vilda.alaska.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/cdmg11&CISOPTR=3591

Bonus..........:lol:


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## Rambo (Apr 12, 2009)

Some awesome pics there:


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## Rambo (Apr 12, 2009)

So this is how they get the beer to the top:


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## Rambo (Apr 12, 2009)

One way to transport a Pisten Bully:


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