# Nobody stops to help dying man



## John84 (May 23, 2006)

Saw this on TGR. Definitely says something about people.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/everest-climber-passed-dying-briton/2006/05/23/1148150233168.html


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

That makes me sick and very sad at the same time.


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## NYDrew (May 24, 2006)

For a double amputee who probably spent plenty of time relying on other people, I think he is a sick, twisted, self centered useless individial.  I no longer respect him what so ever. (lets steal his legs)


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

John84 said:
			
		

> Saw this on TGR. Definitely says something about people.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/everest-climber-passed-dying-briton/2006/05/23/1148150233168.html



John84, could you post the link to that thread? I went to TGR, but couldn't find it.
Thanks


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## David Metsky (May 24, 2006)

It's really not that simple.  It's almost impossible to perform any meaningful rescue at that altitude, especially for someone so hypoxic and unable to move.  Many mountaineers have opined on this story, and they take differing views on what could and should have been done.  Any attempt at rescue puts themselves and others at risk, so that has to be figured into the discussion.  

I can understand both sides of the issue, I'd never pass judgement until I spent some time at extreme altitude and understood what it takes.

 -dave-


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

David Metsky said:
			
		

> It's really not that simple.  It's almost impossible to perform any meaningful rescue at that altitude, especially for someone so hypoxic and unable to move.  Many mountaineers have opined on this story, and they take differing views on what could and should have been done.  Any attempt at rescue puts themselves and others at risk, so that has to be figured into the discussion.
> 
> I can understand both sides of the issue, I'd never pass judgement until I spent some time at extreme altitude and understood what it takes.
> 
> -dave-



I also know nothing about extreme altitude rescue, but it seems all 40 who passed him felt safe enough to keep going on their climb to the top. Is his body still on the mountain because it's not safe enough to bring it down?

Even if there was no chance of saving his life I don't get how they could just pass him and let him die alone.

Try to imagine if it was your son or father who they just left there. How would you feel about it then?


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## Greg (May 24, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> I also know nothing about extreme altitude rescue, but it seems all 40 who passed him felt safe enough to keep going on their climb to the top. Is his body still on the mountain because it's not safe enough to bring it down?
> 
> Even if there was no chance of saving his life I don't get how they could just pass him and let him die alone.
> 
> Try to imagine if it was your son or father who they just left there. How would you feel about it then?


I see your point. I think it's somewhat of a "pact" between Everest climbers though to not risk their own lives to attempt to save another, especially if the chance of the victim's survival is grim. And yes, it probably is safer to simply continue on with their climb and summit, versus trying to haul a man's lifeless body down the mountain. It's a different mindset; something I know nothing about, nor can probably ever understand...


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## JimG. (May 24, 2006)

I would have to echo Dave's response...you shouldn't judge men until you have been forced to walk a mile in their shoes. It's just too easy to sit here in a warm office next to alot of technology and vilify men who are in what amounts to a life and death situation.

I would feel sad and angry if it was my son or a close relative who had been left to die...but more because they had made a personal choice and were not prepared to keep themselves alive rather than at others in basically the same situation who decided to leave them there.

What a terrible choice to have to make...just that possibility alone is enough to keep me from ever trying to summit Everest.


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## awf170 (May 24, 2006)

Atleast sit with the guy for a minute or two and I ask him if there is anything he wants to tell his family before he dies.

Everest sucks.  If I ever got into high alpine climbing there are about a 100 other peaks I would rather do then Everest.


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## Greg (May 24, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> Atleast sit with the guy for a minute or two and I ask him if there is anything he wants to tell his family before he dies.


There's nothing in the article that indicated this didn't happen...nor was there anything that indicating it did, but I have to imagine that out of the 40 people, _somebody _said something to this effect...


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> I see your point. I think it's somewhat of a "pact" between Everest climbers though to not risk their own lives to attempt to save another, especially if the chance of the victim's survival is grim. And yes, it probably is safer to simply continue on with their climb and summit, versus trying to haul a man's lifeless body down the mountain. It's a different mindset; something I know nothing about, nor can probably ever understand...



A few years back while skiing in Italy I did the Vale Blanch. It’s a decent down Mount Blanc from Italy into Chomionx. We did the tourist thing with a guide. All the guides are professional full time year round mountain guides. The first thing they told all the groups is if one of us has a problem on the mountain we all have a problem and we’ll solve it together. Maybe it’s a different code on Mt. Everest.


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## JimG. (May 24, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> There's nothing in the article that indicated this didn't happen...nor was there anything that indicating it did, but I have to imagine that out of the 40 people, _somebody _said something to this effect...



Well, we just don't know. I would have to interview all 40 or so folks who passed him to say for sure.

And even if nobody stopped to spend a minute chatting, can I stand here and tell them they are horrible for not doing so? You know, they might have been busy keeping themselves alive in that situation.

The guy decided to climb alone without any Sherpa support. In hindsight, bad decision. Bad decisions have awful consequences on Everest.


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## JimG. (May 24, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> A few years back while skiing in Italy I did the Vale Blanch. It’s a decent down Mount Blanc from Italy into Chomionx. We did the tourist thing with a guide. All the guides are professional full time year round mountain guides. The first thing they told all the groups is if one of us has a problem on the mountain we all have a problem and we’ll solve it together. Maybe it’s a different code on Mt. Everest.



At the risk of sounding like a total bastard with my repeated responses, there is a big difference. You were in a group with a guide. That's what you paid for and because of that, you were afforded the protection of the group.

This guy didn't want that...he elected to climb alone without support. He paid a terrible price.


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> I would have to echo Dave's response...you shouldn't judge men until you have been forced to walk a mile in their shoes. It's just too easy to sit here in a warm office next to alot of technology and vilify men who are in what amounts to a life and death situation.



Sir Edmund Hillary walked in his shoes, read what he had to say.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/05/24/1148150284836.html


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding like a total bastard with my repeated responses, there is a big difference. You were in a group with a guide. That's what you paid for and because of that, you were afforded the protection of the group.
> 
> This guy didn't want that...he elected to climb alone without support. He paid a terrible price.



You don't sound like a total bastard. Instead of listing our favorite ice creams at a certain ski area we are having a discussion. I like that.

People do stupid things all the time that have terrible consequences for them, but most people try to help if they can. That's our humanity.


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## molecan (May 24, 2006)

While I agree this is a concise example of humanity's utter lack of humanity, this is nothing exceptional regarding Everest. 
According to Everesthistory.com, since the 1920's there have been 186 'recorded' deaths on Everest.    That's somewhere around 12% of the total number of those who have reached the summit.  The bodies are left in the permafrost, either wrapped in their own tent, or simply left where they fall.   
Even among Nepalese sherpas, that 'custom' stands, they do not rescue bodies of their loved ones, or family. 

Everest groups often do not attempt rescue of their own members, unless other group members are willing to forgo attempting the summit. 

In my opinion, (and we all know what opinions are like, but I think I'm pretty right on this one.) attempting Everest is a massive example of hubris, masochism, and suicidal egotism.


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## JimG. (May 24, 2006)

molecan said:
			
		

> attempting Everest is a massive example of hubris, masochism, and suicidal egotism.



Ah! This is the essential truth. Some egos so massive they attempt the summit alone...and die trying to come back down.

Some egos so massive that they take on a double amputee and chastise him for attempting to do what they have already done, when in reality it seems he was the only one with a big enough heart to stop and try to help and who, in all fairness, probably was the one person there who could offer the least amount of help...he has no legs! Sorry, but this story only increases my respect for him.

Hillary's ego was as massive if not more so trying to climb it in the first place. His opinion regarding this event is of course valid and it's what I hope I would choose to do in a similar situation, but again, it is an opinion given from the warmth of a computer or telephone call...not in the death zone above 8000 meters.

Ego, pride, hubris, carelessness, hardness of heart...those are other examples of our humanity. We don't like to look at that, especially in ourselves. That's why this is so disturbing to us. It bothers the heck out of me because honestly, I can't tell you what I would have done. 

I think I would have stopped and tried to help, and probably would have wound up in trouble or dying too. But I just can't tell you. I hope I never have to find out.


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## ALLSKIING (May 24, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> I see your point. I think it's somewhat of a "pact" between Everest climbers though to not risk their own lives to attempt to save another.


This is talked about very much between all the members of all the teams from what I have read. They say you can't really save a person at 28,000 feet if you try you will most likely die trying.


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## ALLSKIING (May 24, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> A few years back while skiing in Italy I did the Vale Blanch. It’s a decent down Mount Blanc from Italy into Chomionx. We did the tourist thing with a guide. All the guides are professional full time year round mountain guides. The first thing they told all the groups is if one of us has a problem on the mountain we all have a problem and we’ll solve it together. Maybe it’s a different code on Mt. Everest.


Everest is over 29,000 feet...Its a big difference. You can't even aclimitize at that elevation you are just slowly dying.


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## John84 (May 24, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> John84, could you post the link to that thread? I went to TGR, but couldn't find it.
> Thanks



Here ya go HPD http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54091


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 24, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:
			
		

> Everest is over 29,000 feet...Its a big difference. You can't even aclimitize at that elevation you are just slowly dying.



I was not comparing Mount Blanc to Mt. Everest. I was going for the we're all in this together thing.


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## jack97 (May 24, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Ego, pride, hubris, carelessness, hardness of heart...those are other examples of our humanity. We don't like to look at that, especially in ourselves. That's why this is so disturbing to us. It bothers the heck out of me because honestly, I can't tell you what I would have done.
> 
> I think I would have stopped and tried to help, and probably would have wound up in trouble or dying too. But I just can't tell you. I hope I never have to find out.



Look at it from the other point, an experienced climber on the third attempt. I have no chance of making it down alive, do I risk other lives in a futile attempt. I say leave me, not sure what my actual answer would be in that situation, it’s another disturbing moral question.


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## JimG. (May 25, 2006)

jack97 said:
			
		

> Look at it from the other point, an experienced climber on the third attempt. I have no chance of making it down alive, do I risk other lives in a futile attempt. I say leave me, not sure what my actual answer would be in that situation, it’s another disturbing moral question.



Very interesting perspective. 

The survival instinct is strong in humans...it's a moral dilemma because none of us know how we are going to respond until we are IN that type of situation.

I guess that's why I have a hard time condoning or criticizing the recent chain of events at Everest.


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## ALLSKIING (May 25, 2006)

More on this..
http://www.katu.com/stories/86210.html


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## jack97 (May 26, 2006)

Interesting article; more than 1500 has reached the summit and  around 190 have died. A 7.9:1 summit to death ratio, on a good year it was 16:1 and on a bad year it was 6.5:1. 

Reference:  http://www.mnteverest.net/history.html

Interesting reading on Hillary’s comments, it was a time when climbing Everest meant something different from what it is today. I read that it cost about 100K just to get in an expedition, gear up in a mini space suit and then expose yourself and Sherpas to the above odds. To me, an interesting moral issue in itself.


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## ALLSKIING (May 26, 2006)

But....Then you have a rescue.:-? 

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/everestalive05262006.htm


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## JimG. (May 26, 2006)

I thought I was done with this topic, but it has a strange pull.

I had read the Hillary comments before, but re-read them and his pontificating really bothers me. He says he would stop to help a fallen climber...but to my knowledge, he has never been in that situation, where he would have to risk his own life to try to save someone who might die anyway. So, his comments about what folks should do or not do hold no more weight than mine would. Edmund, get off the soapbox!

Then I read the article ALLSKIING posted about the "rescue". Talk about a horror show! Other than the fact that Everest is there, why do people do this? In some years, your odds are better playing Russian roulette!

I like a good adventure, but climbing Everest makes no sense to me.


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## ALLSKIING (May 26, 2006)

It does sound like a horror show but then you have the guy Dave Watson goes up with who is a real pro and has summited like 8 times without a problem. All I can tell you is that I would never climb it.


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## David Metsky (May 26, 2006)

The "fog of war" is similar to what goes on above Camp 4, so it's never going to be crystal clear what happened up there.  But it appears that at least a few climbers stopped and tried to assist Sharp, including a Sherpa who was with him for an hour trying to get him on oxygen but nothing worked.  After that, I think it's hard to fault the other climbers from continuing on when there was nothing else that they could do with any margin of safety.

The other rescue story is wonderful and heartwarming, but it's a long way from success yet.  There was a team of 13 Sherpas without clients available for a rescue, which is the only way this can work.  Westerners generally do not operate at altitude as well as Sherpas due to physiological differences. Their lives are all in great danger right now attempting this rescue. I hope that all works out well.

 -dave-


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## JimG. (May 26, 2006)

David Metsky said:
			
		

> Their lives are all in great danger right now attempting this rescue. I hope that all works out well.
> 
> -dave-



Yes they are, and I too hope it turns out OK.

Because I think if it doesn't there will be another uproar that they attempted the rescue in response to what happened with Sharp.


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## jack97 (May 26, 2006)

IIRC, I read an article from Newsweek or Time (98?) where some of the old timers disdain what Everest has become (Hillary could of been one of them). In their days, it took years of training and effort to make that climb. It took teamwork to get the expedition across dangerous terrain. The new technology; clothing and oxygen mask allowed less experience climbers to make the summit. The routes have ladder bridges in place to make safe crossing across icy ravines, now it does not take teamwork to get up the summit. 

I think their point was with these things in place it allows more (inexperience) climbers to make to the summit but this comes at a price with more exposure to risk for themselves as well other people.


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## David Metsky (May 26, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Yes they are, and I too hope it turns out OK.
> 
> Because I think if it doesn't there will be another uproar that they attempted the rescue in response to what happened with Sharp.


Amazingly it looks like it worked!  They've gotten him down to the North Col (7000 meters) due to some heroic effort and the fact that he revived enough to walk a big chunk of it by himself.

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/everestsleeping052620066.htm

He's still in a world of hurt and in trouble.  But the rescuers did something that very few people thought was possible.  Pretty freakin' amazing.

 -dave-


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## JimG. (May 26, 2006)

David Metsky said:
			
		

> Amazingly it looks like it worked!  They've gotten him down to the North Col (7000 meters) due to some heroic effort and the fact that he revived enough to walk a big chunk of it by himself.
> 
> http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/everestsleeping052620066.htm
> 
> ...



Maybe this is why I was drawn back to this thread today...The Sharp thing really bothered me, but now this makes me feel better. 

Those rescuers will probably remain nameless but they are heroes.


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## ALLSKIING (May 30, 2006)

Crazy story.
http://www.everestnews.com/Summitclimb2005/everesttibet2006disps06012006.htm


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## ALLSKIING (Jun 8, 2006)

This is a pic of of Lincoln Hall after spending the night at 28,000 feet without o2. He looks ok but he is not...My question...whats up with the guy in the background?


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## riverc0il (Jun 8, 2006)

wow, what a story. that part about having to climb up the ridge being careful not to put your crampons into an already dead body is beyond my comprehension. i just don't understand the everest mystique and appeal. then again, i don't even consider myself a peak bagger in new england. but few could possibly understand my obsession and passion with skiing, so who am i to judge? i don't pass by frozen dead bodies when i go skiing though, so that kinda puts things into a different perspective. glad to see some folks put a human life ahead of their desire to bag a peak. survival is very rare when injured up on that final stretch... but this sure proves that it is possible. i don't know how people could live with themselves if they didn't at least try to the best of their abilities given the conditions.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 8, 2006)

Finally got to talk to my neighbor Bill Yeo last Saturday who attempted to summit Everest on May 10th. His climbing partner was John Bagnola. 

They went with no sherpas or extra help, wanted to succeed going lean and mean. Bill started spitting up blood so he made the heartwrenching decision to turn back. I think he was  at 26,000ft, wife says 27,000. Anyway, a climber who was also going for the summit think his name was Dave Watson and he is from Vermont and connected to Meathead films, teamed up with John and they both made it to the summit. 

Bill says he would have stopped to help. I believe him..he is an incredible guy. I hate to sound morbid but he mentioned at one point he could see inside this snow cave and see a climber peering at him with open eyes. Course, the climber was dead and apparently has been there for quite sometime. 

In my younger days bagging peaks in the Tetons(except the Grand) was a challenge. We never did overnights so we usually started out at 2AM and returned sometimes as late as 10PM that night. 

Climbing the 8000m peaks seems like an impossible feat, one that I could not possibly consider but if you are young, in top shape and be willing to spend $20,000 it could be done.


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## John84 (Jun 8, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> i don't know how people could live with themselves if they didn't at least try to the best of their abilities given the conditions.



My sentiments exactly.


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## ALLSKIING (Jun 9, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:
			
		

> Finally got to talk to my neighbor Bill Yeo last Saturday who attempted to summit Everest on May 10th. His climbing partner was John Bagnola.
> 
> They went with no sherpas or extra help, wanted to succeed going lean and mean. Bill started spitting up blood so he made the heartwrenching decision to turn back. I think he was  at 26,000ft, wife says 27,000. Anyway, a climber who was also going for the summit think his name was Dave Watson and he is from Vermont and connected to Meathead films, teamed up with John and they both made it to the summit.
> 
> ...


You must have missed this.
http://forums.alpinezone.com/8649-everest-iron-man.html


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## maineskier69 (Jun 9, 2006)

No friends on a powder day....
Maybe Everest summit climbers have a similar code?
Just kidding around of course, sad story but the risk this guy took consequences, were endured.


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## kickstand (Jun 9, 2006)

Rick Reilly's  weekly column in Sports Illustrated this week is about the climbers on Everest.  Interesting read.  He specifically mentions Hall, Vistuers, Hillary, etc.  Check it out if you can.


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## Sky (Jun 9, 2006)

I have so far avoided this thread.  If you never read "Into Thin Air"...I highly recommend it.  Quite graphic...and horrific.  Several deaths on that trip...to include the lead guy who called his wife from the summit (still in good health) knowing he was doomed do to delays in reaching the summit and the pending storm he didn't beat (it's been a while, so maybe I forgot some of the specifics).  There was an oriental female who died on that attempt.  There was a guy (from Texas?) that they left for dead...who revivied on his own and walked out.  Spookey.  Excellent book!

A previous comment about "you are dying slowly while you are up there" probably amplifies the Friends on Powder Days perspective.  You've got to be quite the committed athlete to attempt Everest in the 1st place.  The folks that do it are likely NOT to be of the all-for-one-one-for-all mind set (I'm guessing extreme Type-A).  Maybe they are wonderful people at sea level and amongst family and friends...but come "Game Day"...maybe they have thier "Game Face" on...are in the zone (if you will) and seeing a fresh body on the trail after seeing several other "remains"...I'm thinking "desenitization".  That's if (at that altitude) you're thinking at all.

So on the face of it...leaving somebody to die seems quite heartless.  But on the summit, maybe the victim knew he was doomed (like the lead guide who dies on the summit in the book above).  

I don't know, I wasn't there...and I never will be.  Read the book and it describes in detail the level of commitment it takes just to get to the final base camp.  Amazing.


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## Angus (Jun 9, 2006)

after you've read into thin air - I'd recommend "'The Climb' is Russian mountaineer Anatoli Boukreev's account of the harrowing May 1996 Mount Everest attempt, a tragedy that resulted in the deaths of eight people. The book is also Boukreev's rebuttal to accusations from fellow climber and author Jon Krakauer, who, in his bestselling memoir, Into Thin Air, suggests that Boukreev forfeited the safety of his clients to achieve his own climbing goals." (excerpted off amazon!)

I haven't read this thread except for afew entries - but there appears to be a different code of ethics that exist for these high/extreme mountain climbers.


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## JimG. (Jun 9, 2006)

I've said it before...it all boils down to actually being there to make any kind of commentary about the ethics of leaving people to die. The path to the top of Everest is literally lined with the dead bodies of those who attempted it only to die trying. That should speak volumes to anyone who wants to try to summit Everest: don't expect any help if you get into trouble.

If you feel it is heartless to pass by a dying climber, you're right if you're playing by the rules at sea level. At 29,000 feet, you may be sacrificimg your life if you stop and help and the chances that you will rescue the fallen climber are very slim. So the decision becomes much different in the death zone. 

So, to make any comments about who stopped or didn't stop while sitting in a warm room in front of a computer are pointless. You weren't there.


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## Sky (Jun 9, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> So the decision becomes much different in the death zone.



"Death Zone"...I forgot that reference in the book.


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## JimG. (Jun 9, 2006)

Sky521 said:
			
		

> "Death Zone"...I forgot that reference in the book.



"Into Thin Air" is a difficult read. Alot of mistakes were made on the Rob Hall run expedition. Hall wound up dying because he stayed and tried to help several doomed clients on the summit. At the time, Hall was considered one of the top 3 climbers in the world, so it was a shock to the climbing world that so many lives were lost. The 1996 expedition started the discussion about the trend of bringing well to do but less than professional climbers to the summit. Must feel nice to pocket $100,000 per climber to lead the expedition...not worth dying for though. 

The Asian woman was an experienced climber too and was attempting to become the first woman from her country to summit Everest. Alot of rules were broken in the attempt to get her to the top, and she paid with her life.

The Texas pathologist, Beck Weathers, was left for dead SEVERAL times by more than one team. He somehow managed to survive and walk himself back down to camp 4 in a raging blizzard, avoiding falling off of several cliffs along the way. It was not his time to die.


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## Sky (Jun 10, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> "Into Thin Air" is a difficult read.



WHy do you think so?  Was it the subject and description of deaths...or the story (writing)?

I thought the descriptions of the living conditions...and the obvious commitments were compelling reading.


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## pedxing (Jun 10, 2006)

Another take on the Lincoln Hall rescue - in the story is an interesting contrast in character.

Others have spoken well of Daniel Mazur before.  He most definitely sounds like a good, as well as highly competent man.


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## ChileMass (Jun 12, 2006)

Lincoln Hall and Dan Mazur were just on the Today show talking to Matt Lauer.  Hall has heavy bandages on both hands and one foot, is in a wheelchair and says he expects to lose "a couple of joints" on his hands.  But - he still looks terrific and sounds OK.  A little shaken up and he got a little emotional talking about the generous help he received at 28,000 feet from Mazur and his team.  

Mazur said his team found Hall at daybreak, with no gloves or hat and his jacket half-off, sitting on a 2'x2' perch where he could have fallen 6000 feet in one direction and 8000 feet in the other.  Unbelievable.  I would love to see that some day, but I probably don't have the balls for it (or the conditioning, or the $$$$).  

The audience spontaneously broke into applause for Mazur at the end of the interview - never seen that before on the Today show.  Hall says he still intends to earn a living as a trekking guide, but says he will never go up to altitudes like that again.


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## JimG. (Jun 12, 2006)

Sky521 said:
			
		

> WHy do you think so?  Was it the subject and description of deaths...or the story (writing)?
> 
> I thought the descriptions of the living conditions...and the obvious commitments were compelling reading.



Difficult in an emotional sense only...reading as mistakes were being made and knowing that alot of people were going to die as a result.


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## Sky (Jun 12, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Difficult in an emotional sense only...reading as mistakes were being made and knowing that alot of people were going to die as a result.



Got it....agreed.


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## thaller1 (Jun 12, 2006)

*I can't believe I'm saying this..*

this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever said..but I can see why people passed the man by.. the trek up Everest is not trip to the mall.. these people prepare for years.. can  you imagine having been so close to the top and not able to finish because another hiker you don't even know fell..??  

Granted, I don't know how I'd live with myself if that happened..but every person who goes up....takes a risk and other people aren't responsible for you.. sad but true..


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## Marc (Jun 12, 2006)

thaller1 said:
			
		

> this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever said..but I can see why people passed the man by.. the trek up Everest is not trip to the mall.. these people prepare for years.. can  you imagine having been so close to the top and not able to finish because another hiker you don't even know fell..??
> 
> Granted, I don't know how I'd live with myself if that happened..but every person who goes up....takes a risk and other people aren't responsible for you.. sad but true..



Perhaps this is the right time to add my thoughts on this long running topic.

Your quote was appropriate thaller, years of training, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, and yet after all that, it would still mean worlds more to me to attempt a rescue even at the risk to my own life, even if I knew it was in vain,  than it would summiting 20 times.  Or for a million dollars.  Obviously other people have different values.  I'm in no way attempting to take the high moral ground or look down upon anyone, but that's me.

Over the past five years I've been exposed to lots and lots of human death, carnage and injury.  More than I cared to be and I'll spare you the gory details.  I have been quite desensitized yet I'm still unbreakably ingrained with the responsibility to act, no matter what the circumstances, if a person needs help and I have the ability to render it, no matter how irresponsible the victim was preceding his current circumstances.

No, Jim, I have never been on top of Everest, nor will I ever, but I still am confindent in predicting my actions in such a situation.

Probably why I became involved in the fire service in the first place.



Well that and sh*t blowing up is fricken cool... obviously

:dunce:


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## thaller1 (Jun 13, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Perhaps this is the right time to add my thoughts on this long running topic.
> 
> Your quote was appropriate thaller, years of training, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, and yet after all that, it would still mean worlds more to me to attempt a rescue even at the risk to my own life, even if I knew it was in vain,  than it would summiting 20 times.  Or for a million dollars.  Obviously other people have different values.  I'm in no way attempting to take the high moral ground or look down upon anyone, but that's me.
> 
> ...




Well I hope if I ever climb Mt Everest and fall that someone like you or me is climbing at the same time!


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## JimG. (Jun 13, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> No, Jim, I have never been on top of Everest, nor will I ever, but I still am confindent in predicting my actions in such a situation.



Marc, if anything this discussion should make you aware of the fact that on Everest, nothing is predictable. 

I do not mean to belittle your obvious dedication to helping others. And I too hope I would be able to help a fallen climber if put in that scenario. 

However, on Everest the mere action of staying alive is sometimes too much to ask. It's as horribly simple as that. Your spirit is obviously willing, but the body may not be able to follow suit. Imagine the unpleasantness of that situation!

My only point is that until you are up there in that situation, don't judge the actions of others who were there. They too may have been willing but physically unable.


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## David Metsky (Jun 13, 2006)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3696981a11,00.html

More details of what happened.  Most folks didn't even know there was a person there until the next day.  It appears that when they found him they were on the way down.  If they saw him on the way up they thought it was the body of a climber that died in that exact spot years earlier.

It's pretty easy to get confused and mistaken info on these things until everyone is down and clear-headed.  And even this information isn't complete, it's just what this one person who wasn't up on the mountain knew.

 -dave-


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## Marc (Jun 13, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Marc, if anything this discussion should make you aware of the fact that on Everest, nothing is predictable.



I think a quality of true character is predicting your actions in undpredictable situations.


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## JimG. (Jun 13, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> I think a quality of true character is predicting your actions in undpredictable situations.



I agree...another quality of true character is being able to think and say "I don't know".

Have you ever faced death trying to save someone else? I don't know, so I'm asking. If you have, you have earned the right to predict how you would react.

If not, you don't know. Period.


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## awf170 (Jun 13, 2006)

http://www.mary-woodbridge.co.uk/frameset_mw.html


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## Marc (Jun 13, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> I agree...another quality of true character is being able to think and say "I don't know".
> 
> Have you ever faced death trying to save someone else? I don't know, so I'm asking. If you have, you have earned the right to predict how you would react.
> 
> If not, you don't know. Period.



Not imminent, no, but there are times I'd say my chances of surviving are approaching 75%.  Or I come out and see part of a roof collapsing and say "Hmm... that was lucky..."

Every time I go into a burning building or cut someone out of a car on the side of a busy highway I'm certainly taking much more risk than most people are comfortable.  It is just hard to quantify how much a risk it is.


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## David Metsky (Jun 14, 2006)

uphillklimber said:
			
		

> Is it just untennable to even attempt it? Have there been any rescue attempts on Everest? What are the details, and how do they compare to this situation?(I.E. were any rescue attempts made for someone as bad off as this fellow? At this altitude? In theis weather? ) What has it taken to get a body down in the past? What about all that garbage?


You may have missed the report this year of Lincoln Hall.  He collapsed at 8700 meters on the north side of Everest, and was rescued by a team of 13 Sheraps.  He had also spent the night out and could easily have been left for dead.  The biggest difference was that they found him sooner, there was a large collection of Sherpas who are capable of working at that altitude, and Hall revived quite a bit once he was brought down several 100 meters and was on O2.

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/halleveresthall05272006.htm

It can be done.  But, this was an execptional rescue, pretty much unprecedented.

 -dave-


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## JimG. (Jun 14, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Not imminent, no, but there are times I'd say my chances of surviving are approaching 75%.  Or I come out and see part of a roof collapsing and say "Hmm... that was lucky..."
> 
> Every time I go into a burning building or cut someone out of a car on the side of a busy highway I'm certainly taking much more risk than most people are comfortable.  It is just hard to quantify how much a risk it is.



I think you have listed a few hair raising situations that put you in a better position to predict your reaction than myself.

The "cutting the person out of the car at the side of the highway" scenario is scary...I've seen more than a few public servants hit in those situations and not long ago saw a municipal worker killed in a side of the road collision.


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## ALLSKIING (Jun 26, 2006)

From some people that were on Everest
http://www.everestnews.com/2006expeditions/everest006252006.htm


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 1, 2006)

This is the story on David Sharp...Its a tough read.
http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/davidsharp07272006.htm


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

uphillklimber said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that it takes 3 six man crews to get an injured person of a mountain, in the northeast, .



Explain that will ya?


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## David Metsky (Aug 2, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:
			
		

> Explain that will ya?


For a litter carry you need 20+ people.  6 carry the litter at any one point in time and switch off to give time to rest.  You need at least three teams to function at any level of safety and efficiency, more if the terrain is very rough.  It's exhausting work, far more difficult than most people would think.

 -dave-


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