# EPIC 2021-2022 Announcement  =Pass cost cut 20%



## catskillman (Mar 24, 2021)

LEAKED: Epic Pass Price Cut by 20%
The Denver Post had a story queued up on embargo this morning when Vail decided to delay their announcement by one day due to the tragic mass shooting in their community. This story was cached by Google, and while the full cache has been removed, Google still displays the summary in the search results and I consider that to be confirmed as to the basic facts, but the full text of the article was only recoverable from a Reddit thread and cannot be confirmed in it's entirety. The full story appears below this introduction.

This article claims that Vail Resorts is reducing the price of the full Epic Pass by $196, and the Epic Local Pass by $146. That's significant. The full Epic Pass will start off at $783, and the Epic Local Pass will start at $583.

What this story doesn't detail however is the company's direction when it comes to regional pass products such as the Northeast Value Pass and the Northeast Weekday Value Pass. The price cut makes the Epic Local Pass cheaper than the Northeast Value Pass was last season, but not the Northeast Weekday Value Pass. If that pass was eliminated, a number of Northeast passholders on the weekday pass product would actually end up paying more, though overall most Epic Pass holders would be paying less.

This move by Vail continues two main strategies; 1) sell on value, and 2) lock as many people in as possible on passes. The obvious question though is whether people will want to go ski at a resort that looks like a Walmart at midnight on Black Friday. Surely a record number of people will next season at least.



=========== Cached Story Below ===========

Epic Pass Price Slashed 20% for 2021-2022 Ski Season

The duel between ski industry titans over season pass sales took a stunning turn Tuesday when Vail Resorts announced that prices for next season’s Epic Passes will be 20% lower than what it charged for those passes this season.

The Epic Pass for next season, which goes on sale Tuesday, is priced at $783. That’s $196 less than the 2020-21 Epic Pass when it went on sale a year ago, and $216 less than rival Ikon Pass is charging for a comparable 2021-22 season pass. Ikon announced its 2021-22 prices on March 11.

The more limited Epic Local Pass is priced at $583, which is $146 lower than last year’s price of $729. Ikon is charging $729 for its comparable 2021-22 product, the Ikon Base Pass.

Both Vail Resorts and rival Alterra Mountain Co. (Ikon Pass) are headquartered in metro Denver, and there was no immediate response from Alterra to Vail’s escalation in the season pass wars. Epic passes haven’t been this cheap since the 2015-16 season, when the Epic Pass was good at only 11 U.S resorts. Now it’s good at six resorts in Colorado alone, and more than 70 destinations around the world.

“The main driver here is, we want to move ticket buyers to a pass,” Vail Resorts chief executive Rob Katz said in an interview. “That has been a strategy of ours going all the way back to the introduction of the Epic Pass back in 2008. We’ve made huge inroads on this front. We started looking at some of our learning over the last couple years, and we thought we could actually reduce the price, bring more people into the program, and actually have it be profitable and a good decision for the company.”

Katz said Epic Pass sales for the 2020-21 season were strong, helping the company withstand the challenges that came with COVID-19 capacity restrictions and the reservations system it employed to control numbers on its mountains. That helped drive the price cut for next season’s passes.

“We’re not cutting the price of a lift ticket,” Katz said. “We’re cutting the price of a pass, which means you have to buy it before the season. That, we believe, is the crux of how you ensure stability and economic prosperity for the entire skiing and riding ecosystem.

Katz said Vail Resorts sold 1.4 million Epic Passes for this season. That meant lots of money in the bank before the first snowflake fell. That triggered us to say, ‘We’re doubling down on this strategy,’ Katz said. “We think skiers and riders can be the beneficiaries. It’s actually making a great trade with our guests to say, ‘Hey, we’re going to keep providing you more and more value to help us make this business and this industry more successful.'”

Vail Resorts business declined this season because of the pandemic, which included operating lifts at 50% capacity or less. Katz sent a letter to pass holders last week, saying the company does not plan to use a reservations system next season.

“Obviously this year was not as good as previous years,” Katz said. “But given the environment that we were operating in, and all the challenges that we all faced around COVID, we feel like this year has been absolutely successful. I think it’s been due to a few things. One is pass sales, which was very strong going into this year.”

Epic passes are good at all resorts owned by Vail Resorts as well as “partner” resorts owned by other companies. Those destinations include Telluride, Sun Valley in Idaho and Snowbasin in Utah. Ikon Passes are good at Alterra mountains, including Winter Park and Steamboat in Colorado, as well as partner resorts that include Aspen Snowmass, Copper Mountain, Arapahoe Basin and Eldora.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 24, 2021)

way to report that breaking news, bud.


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## thebman11 (Mar 24, 2021)

I can only imagine what this will do for extra crowds next year when skier visits are restricted. I have skied at Stowe for 10 years and have never seen crowds like this year (weekdays look like weekends!). I never even tried to go on a Saturday! I will probably make the move to a smaller hill next year.... bummer.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

I guess that is what they are doing.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

This is not leaked it is already on snow,com - we just bought our Epic Military Veteran and Veteran Dependent passes.  $447 each THAT is a great deal.  Gives us everything the Full Epic Pass provide except partner resorts and we are OK with that!


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> This is not leaked it is already on snow,com



He copy and pasted from a post that was made on Facebook by someone yesterday... So at the time the Facebook post was made, it was leaked info. At the time the post here was made, it was no longer leaked info.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

thebman11 said:


> I can only imagine what this will do for extra crowds next year when skier visits are restricted. I have skied at Stowe for 10 years and have never seen crowds like this year (weekdays look like weekends!). I never even tried to go on a Saturday! I will probably make the move to a smaller hill next year.... bummer.



Vail resorts do not plan on restricting skier visits - no reservation system,  So get ready!  Question how many people will now go Epic instead of Ikon or better yet how many will go with both?  For about $1300 (Ikon bas + Epic Local and even less if Veteran)  The list of resorts you can ski is absolutely nuts!

Killington, Pico, Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Sugar Bush, Windham - Ikon
Stowe, Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Crotched, Wildcat, Attitash, Hunter - Epic

Head out West is it is dreamy!


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## Edd (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Vail resorts do not plan on restricting skier visits - no reservation system,  So get ready!  Question how many people will now go Epic instead of Ikon or better yet how many will go with both?  For about $1300 (Ikon bas + Epic Local and even less if Veteran)  The list of resorts you can ski is absolutely nuts!
> 
> Killington, Pico, Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Sugar Bush, Windham - Ikon
> Stowe, Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Crotched, Wildcat, Attitash, Hunter - Epic
> ...


I might be one of those people who go both. Got some thinking to do.


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## Blurski (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Vail resorts do not plan on restricting skier visits - no reservation system,  So get ready!  Question how many people will now go Epic instead of Ikon or better yet how many will go with both?  For about $1300 (Ikon bas + Epic Local and even less if Veteran)  The list of resorts you can ski is absolutely nuts!
> 
> Killington, Pico, Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Sugar Bush, Windham - Ikon
> Stowe, Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Crotched, Wildcat, Attitash, Hunter - Epic
> ...


I bought both well worth it based on being able to spend a fair amount of time out west next season and having so many NE resorts you can ski at.
I usually also by a mid week at MRG, we will wait on that one.  It will be a bummer if restrictions are in effect again, this season on IKON is was hard to book last minute storm chasing trips to IKON resorts as they limited the tickets available to IKON pass holders from other mountains.  Every time I looked only a few days in advance the best I could find was 1 or 2 days that I can get a ticket.


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## catskillman (Mar 24, 2021)

thebman11 said:


> I can only imagine what this will do for extra crowds next year when skier visits are restricted. I have skied at Stowe for 10 years and have never seen crowds like this year (weekdays look like weekends!). I never even tried to go on a Saturday! I will probably make the move to a smaller hill next year.... bummer.


Agreed.  Mid week days were like the old weekend days at Hunter this season.  I am at Hunter today and the thought amongst everyone is they had to reduce the cost in order to keep the passholders who are disgusted from this year.  They should have given them the discount, and charged anyone new a higher rate maybe? 

BTW - Hunter is in touch shape.  the 11th will be ugly, if they make it, based on the weather.  The only plus is there is no one here!


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

I like the logic discussed in the Vail Sucks Thread!  Lift capacity was significantly reduced this year in some cases probably lower that 50% but Vail reported only a 11% drop in skier visits.  get that back and have lifts operating at 100% capacity or close even will go a long way towards decreasing lift lines.


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## kingslug (Mar 24, 2021)

I'll just have to see how Stowe is next year..not going to judge it by this year..getting Ikon also as I want o ski SB more..its only 45 minutes from Stowe so I can hit either.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2021)

Decrease the length of the line only to have more people congesting the trails. Always a give and take.


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## PAabe (Mar 24, 2021)

Also it is possible more people might be skiing more out west instead of east coast next year, and it is possible people might be more busy with other commitments next year post covid (less work from home and more other activities going on).  So at least there are a few things going for it


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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2021)

PAabe said:


> also it is possible more people might be skiing more out west instead of east coast next year


Will be interesting to compare the 20-21 and 21-22 seasons and see how things turn out.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I like the logic discussed in the Vail Sucks Thread!  Lift capacity was significantly reduced this year in some cases probably lower that 50% but Vail reported only a 11% drop in skier visits.  get that back and have lifts operating at 100% capacity or close even will go a long way towards decreasing lift lines.



Are you really seeing lift capacities reduced by as much as 50% in reality where you're skiing? I'm not. My estimate on weekends at Sugarbush is about a 25-33% reduction. There's more than enough chairs going up with 3-4 people in order to offset the chairs going up with 1 or 2. You'd need to average 2 or less people per chair on a Quad to see a 50% reduction. I'm not seeing that. And then take a lift like Castlerock which is a double. To reduce capacity there by 50% (more than 50% reduction is impossible on a double), every single chair would need only 1 person on it. Not at all reality.

I can see areas with Gondolas having more of an impact on capacity. But areas with predominantly quads or smaller shouldn't be seeing a 50% reduction in capacity.



ThatGuy said:


> Decrease the length of the line only to have more people congesting the trails. Always a give and take.


Yea...a few less people on the trails has been one nice "feature" of this season.


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## PAabe (Mar 24, 2021)

Places with mostly quads and six packs taking most of the hit in capacity.  For example, lines crazy at Blue mtn. with their main quad and six pack often sending up 1 person per chair (why) while Elk is busier than ever (not limiting tickets) but liftlines have been fine because they have mostly doubles.

Particularly big hit for the gondola/tram places.  At Gore a lot of gondolas were going up with 1 person in them but most quad chairs had at least 2.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 24, 2021)

petition to merge this thread into vail sucks. same convo happening in two places.


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## gmcunni (Mar 24, 2021)

i may upgrade from Epic Local to Epic and plan a fun trip for next year.


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## Killingtime (Mar 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> I might be one of those people who go both. Got some thinking to do.


Same here. I may give up the Indy this year also. I will just have too many options with both Epic and Ikon.  Not a bad problem to have.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

It is 


Killingtime said:


> Same here. I may give up the Indy this year also. I will just have too many options with both Epic and Ikon.  Not a bad problem to have.


It is a crazy combo for sure!  Things dreams are made with!  Even with Ikon Base and Epic Local about $1300 that is mind blowing in terms of the resorts you have access to!


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## kendo (Mar 24, 2021)

happy to see Epic access to Telluride is still included.  Will get Epic again for Stowe weekdays + Telluride.  Also considering Icon.


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## Tonyr (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> It is
> 
> It is a crazy combo for sure!  Things dreams are made with!  Even with Ikon Base and Epic Local about $1300 that is mind blowing in terms of the resorts you have access to!



I did the Epic and Mountain Collective which comes out to $1250 or so. I need to ski during the holiday restrictions periods.


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## boston_e (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Vail resorts do not plan on restricting skier visits - no reservation system,  So get ready!  Question how many people will now go Epic instead of Ikon or better yet how many will go with both?  For about $1300 (Ikon bas + Epic Local and even less if Veteran)  The list of resorts you can ski is absolutely nuts!
> 
> Killington, Pico, Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Sugar Bush, Windham - Ikon
> Stowe, Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Crotched, Wildcat, Attitash, Hunter - Epic
> ...


On the flip side, why do both when either one alone pretty much gives most people more days than they can ski in a season already?


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

boston_e said:


> On the flip side, why do both when either one alone pretty much gives most people more days than they can ski in a season already?


Very valid point...if either was the cost of both combined, people would be flipping out about how "expensive" the passes are. But yet some are willing to pay for both. All that gives you is more variety, but not more potential days. A better strategy if you want variety is to just alternate each pass every year if variety is that important to you. Either one alone should give you more than enough variety for a single season.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2021)

IMO the fact that many people are considering buying both is case in point that both products are too inexpensive.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 24, 2021)

If I were to buy a 2nd pass to supplement Epic Local - it would be Indy - as the main point would be to have access to less crowded places on peak days. And to not spend too much to get that option.

Epic NE and Indy could be a particularly good fit - hit the less crowded places the day Epic's most popular NE resorts would be blacked out (and super crowded)


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## Mum skier (Mar 24, 2021)

As a family of 4 it’s hard to walk away from those cheap prices, and it’s not as if we ski 50 days per season so we are always asking is it better value to get a pass or just buy day tickets for the relatively small number of days we ski.   So the low price does make a difference when there are 4 of you.  But it would be so nice to get away from crowds....... We are limited to weekends and holidays with kids. I can’t see any way round crowds for us daytripping from Boston weekends only.  And I am worried even with better chair capacity that’s going to be a lot of people buying passes and skiing on weekend. Including us.


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## PAabe (Mar 24, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> As a family of 4 it’s hard to walk away from those cheap prices, and it’s not as if we ski 50 days per season so we are always asking is it better value to get a pass or just buy day tickets for the relatively small number of days we ski.   So the low price does make a difference when there are 4 of you.  But it would be so nice to get away from crowds....... We are limited to weekends and holidays with kids. I can’t see any way round crowds for us daytripping from Boston weekends only.  And I am worried even with better chair capacity that’s going to be a lot of people buying passes and skiing on weekend. Including us.


I am no Bostonian so I don't know what the drives are like but there are a heck of a lot of places on Indy Pass in that area which would likely be less crowded then Epic/Ikon.  If I lived in Boston I would definitely be getting myself one or more Indy Passes.


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## boston_e (Mar 25, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> As a family of 4 it’s hard to walk away from those cheap prices, and it’s not as if we ski 50 days per season so we are always asking is it better value to get a pass or just buy day tickets for the relatively small number of days we ski.   So the low price does make a difference when there are 4 of you.  But it would be so nice to get away from crowds....... We are limited to weekends and holidays with kids. I can’t see any way round crowds for us daytripping from Boston weekends only.  And I am worried even with better chair capacity that’s going to be a lot of people buying passes and skiing on weekend. Including us.


I’ll second the suggestion for the Indy pass if you don’t need unlimited days and are looking to avoid crowds.  Not sure what your day trip distance tolerance is but there are a handful of nice options in New England on the Indy pass.... some would require a hotel stay for sure though.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> IMO the fact that many people are considering buying both is case in point that both products are too inexpensive.



as someone who's considering both I am 100% in agreement with you.   I am stuck with "epic" in PA, but I'd like options up north and out west.   I figure ride the train while I can I guess...


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## Killingtime (Mar 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> as someone who's considering both I am 100% in agreement with you.   I am stuck with "epic" in PA, but I'd like options up north and out west.   I figure ride the train while I can I guess...


Stop ruining it haha!! I'm finding there are few things in life that true bargains now days. My gut feeling is that these low prices will end at some point. Before I sold my home in VT I used to drop a $1,000 for a Beast pass which was good only for K and Pico. For $1,300 I can really explore. This past year I kept it mostly in NY because of covid. I want next year to be the best ski experience in my life. If Vail and Alterra can make an acceptable profit at the current price point, I'm not going to complain. Just stay away from certain resorts on the weekends because they will be packed.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 25, 2021)

So buying both might be extreme for some, but I know there are many that will see this as an opportunity.  $1300 is not cheap for sure, but for the dollars, the list of ski areas you are getting is pretty cool!  That price point for the number of ski areas you can get in the Northeast will never happen again.  It will go up from here.

Still, whether it is Epic and Indy or Ikon and Indy or swap out Indy with MC - once again you have so many options!  Even with Epic there are several price points that make the option even cheaper  like the Northeast Value Pass.

When we had 4 kids at home buying passes was not affordable.  Since then career moves/advancements and all or boys out of the house passes are much more affordable because we are buying for 2 not 6.


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## Dickc (Mar 25, 2021)

I took a look at the Epic prices, and found if I went with the northeast mid week pass at age 65+, it would be $271.00. Add in an Indy pass at $199.00 or even $249.00 if it goes up this season, and I would be able to get in plenty of skiing being retired.  $470.00 to $520.00 for a whole season!  Gas would cost me more for the winter than the actual skiing!


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## Zermatt (Mar 25, 2021)

Full Ikon Pass renewal for a family of four (2 adults and 2 kids age 5-12) is over $100 cheaper than equivalent Epic Pass even with 20% discount.

Those Epic kids passes are the killer.


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## boston_e (Mar 25, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> Full Ikon Pass renewal for a family of four (2 adults and 2 kids age 5-12) is over $100 cheaper than equivalent Epic Pass even with 20% discount.
> 
> Those Epic kids passes are the killer.



Not only that, but (in my opinion at least) the New England IKON options are superior to those of Epic.  Unless someone is tied to an Epic mountain I can't see picking Attitash, Wildcat, Mount Snow, Stowe, Okemo and Crotched over Killy/Pico, Bush, Loaf and River.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

the only one worth a shit to me is stowe. wildcat is cool but too far for any regular visits for me. i mourn stowe. but overall i think i'm on the right team and am happy with my pass products. i am actually very happy okemo, mount snow, and hunter, are the targets of this shit-showery. i have zero interest in skiing any of them ever.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Not only that, but (in my opinion at least) the New England IKON options are superior to those of Epic.  Unless someone is tied to an Epic mountain I can't see picking Attitash, Wildcat, Mount Snow, Stowe, Okemo and Crotched over Killy/Pico, Bush, Loaf and River.



Depends what your use model and location is.  If you primarily day trip and live in the metro Boston or Southern NH area, Epic is the better choice.   Ikon doesn't really offer those folks a good day trip option.  That's why I bought it this season. 

As a whole I agree though. The Ikon properties are superior.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Depends what your use model and location is.  If you primarily day trip and live in the metro Boston or Southern NH area, Epic is the better choice.   Ikon doesn't really offer those folks a good day trip option.  That's why I bought it this season.
> 
> As a whole I agree though. The Ikon properties are superior.



Also why we went with Epic,  Plus we plan on several trips out west and will ski Vail Resorts plus A Basin.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Not only that, but (in my opinion at least) the New England IKON options are superior to those of Epic.  Unless someone is tied to an Epic mountain I can't see picking Attitash, Wildcat, Mount Snow, Stowe, Okemo and Crotched over Killy/Pico, Bush, Loaf and River.


It's not necessarily "tied to" an Epic mountain. It's all about which mountain you prefer. 

If your favorite is one of the above, it really doesn't matter what IKON options are 'superior' or not. Which IKON mountain is "superior" than Stowe? Bush?  

And what if your favorite mountain is Okemo? Does it matter Killington/Pico is "superior"?


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## boston_e (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> It's not necessarily "tied to" an Epic mountain. It's all about which mountain you prefer.
> 
> If your favorite is one of the above, it really doesn't matter what IKON options are 'superior' or not. Which IKON mountain is "superior" than Stowe? Bush?
> 
> And what if your favorite mountain is Okemo? Does it matter Killington/Pico is "superior"?



Of course someones favorite mountain is up to each person and what they personally consider superior.

I would guess though that more people not tied to a specific resort through property or otherwise, would think that the Ikon selection of mountains in New England are better resorts overall than the Epic selection.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I would guess though that more people not tied to a specific resort through property or otherwise, would think that the Ikon selection of mountains in New England are better resorts overall than the Epic selection.


I kind of disagree. Okemo is VERY popular. Long before Vail took it over, it's been one of the busiest mountain. A lot of casual skiers really dig the ego inflating terrain there. And the manicured runs also conducive to casual cruising. 

Granted, just as many find Stratton their favorite for the same reason. Only that it's not any "better". 

What I see IKON has is more diversity of terrains and geography. I personally find that factor superior. But I don't know if I can project that onto the average skiers.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> I kind of disagree. Okemo is VERY popular. Long before Vail took it over, it's been one of the busiest mountain. A lot of casual skiers really dig the ego inflating terrain there. And the manicured runs also conducive to casual cruising.
> 
> Granted, just as many find Stratton their favorite for the same reason. Only that it's not any "better".
> 
> What I see IKON has is more diversity of terrains and geography. I personally find that factor superior. But I don't know if I can project that onto the average skiers.



Mount Snow also very popular as well as Hunter.  Sunapee for Boston peeps.  Stowe has its own luster since it used to be too costly before now more affordable.  If they get their shit together at Wildcat and Attitash that will help and it is an unknown at this time.

Ikon has Stratton and Sugarbush for those high volume skiers then 5 days total for Killington/Pico.  Then you have the Loon Zoo and the trek to ME for additional 5 day resorts.

Not sure if Killington 5 days has enough appeal may be it does.  Sugarbush vs Stowe?  They have their fans.  Stratton vs Okemo?  They also have their fans.  Southern NH option probably goes to to Epic but Boston North (loon) has a five day option.

Then there is the full Ikon which changes the 5 to 7.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

Location, location, location

Mt Snow, Hunter and Okemo are as popular as they are primarily for that reason.

Put Sugarbush or Sugarloaf in the same neighborhoods and there's no question in my mind both would be more popular than Hunter, Snow or Okemo.  Superior snow, size and terrain variety.  All the same reasons why Killington is more popular than Snow and Okemo.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Location, location, location
> 
> Mt Snow, Hunter and Okemo are as popular as they are primarily for that reason.
> 
> Put Sugarbush or Sugarloaf in the same neighborhoods and there's no question in my mind both would be more popular than Hunter, Snow or Okemo.  Superior snow, size and terrain variety.  All the same reasons why Killington is more popular than Snow and Okemo.



I agree!


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Location, location, location
> 
> Mt Snow, Hunter and Okemo are as popular as they are primarily for that reason.
> 
> Put Sugarbush or Sugarloaf in the same neighborhoods and there's no question in my mind both would be more popular than Hunter, Snow or Okemo.  Superior snow, size and terrain variety.  All the same reasons why Killington is more popular than Snow and Okemo.



Location certainly is a factor to a degree. But I'm not 100% sure that SB would be more popular than Okemo if they were both in the same neighborhood. There's certainly a good deal of people that love their groomers and would complain that a place like SB doesn't have enough of them and would sooner ski Okemo (heck even look in the SB thread this year there were some complaints about not enough groomed trails). I think SB and Okemo both cater to very different clientele and types of skiers (and it isn't based purely on location).


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Location certainly is a factor to a degree. But I'm not 100% sure that SB would be more popular than Okemo if they were both in the same neighborhood. There's certainly a good deal of people that love their groomers and would complain that a place like SB doesn't have enough of them and would sooner ski Okemo (heck even look in the SB thread this year there were some complaints about not enough groomed trails). I think SB and Okemo both cater to very different clientele and types of skiers (and it isn't based purely on location).



Could be true for Sugarbush.  Though as I mentioned, Killington is more popular than Okemo and Killington isn't all that great of a mountain for people who like groomers.  They do have more than Sugarbush though.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Could be true for Sugarbush.  Though as I mentioned, Killington is more popular than Okemo and Killington isn't all that great of a mountain for people who like groomers.  They do have more than Sugarbush though.


Been a while since I've been to K, but I recall K having substantially more groomed terrain than SB. Just looking at the current report, K lists 72 groomed trails last night and I've seen other days with their count well into the 80s. For SB, 60-65 would be a high number of groomed runs on any given night. Mid-week they're typically in the low 50s. Sure K doesn't have Okemo level grooming, but certainly more than SB. K has other factors that draw the crowd as well (nightlife vs Okemo).

And I say this as someone that loves SB and drives the extra hour to SB over either K or Okemo all the time in a normal year as I personally do think it is superior. I just don't think it is as clear cut as you originally said that SB would be more popular than Okemo if they were both in the same location. There are a lot of casual skiers out there that would choose Okemo's terrain over SB's. This forum is biased towards a more advanced skier that favors the more challenging and diverse terrain than the general population.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

K has many more groomed options than SB. multiple t2b groomer routes from most chairs

last weekend i skied cruise control. somehow i had not skied cruise control since i was a kid. i guess because it is sort of tucked away between bear and needles eye pods. i had no idea that sun deck was up there. super chill little spot.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Put Sugarbush or Sugarloaf in the same neighborhoods and there's no question in my mind both would be more popular than Hunter, Snow or Okemo. *Superior snow*, size and terrain variety.


Except if you put SB where Okemo is, it wouldn't have "superior snow" any more. 

Don't get me wrong, the terrains of SB or SL are superb. But for the casual skiers, they don't necessarily need better terrain. 

On the other hand, everyone can use better snow, which SB has, even more so at Sugarloaf. But that's exactly due to their locations, which happened to be further away from population center. 

Wait till self-driving cars become the norm, Sugarloaf will see herds coming!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

Elevation matters big time.  Okemo and Killington are pretty close to one another.  15ish miles by the crow. Far more snow at Killington because of elevation.  Same would hold true if Sugarbush was near Okemo.  And Sugarbush actually averages quite a bit more snow than Sugarloaf.  

  I know you have zero self control over your contrarian tendencies, but do some research next time.  Thanks


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Elevation matters big time.  Okemo and Killington are pretty close to one another.  15ish miles by the crow. Far more snow at Killington because of elevation.  Same would hold true if Sugarbush was near Okemo.  And Sugarbush actually averages quite a bit more snow than Sugarloaf.
> 
> I know you have zero self control over your contrarian tendencies, but do some research next time.  Thanks


The east also get more snow than many of the western mountains too! Yet they don't ski anything like the west!

More doesn't always mean better!

SB has "superior snow" because it's further north and the snow are in well "superior" condition! Move it down south, it loses that "superior" condition due to more melt-freeze cycle from the warmer temperature. K has more snow but it doesn't ski any better than Okemo! In fact, it typically ski worse than Okemo.

I know you have zero self control over your tendencies to insult others. But go ski some different mountains to gain some experience instead of just staring at numbers! Thanks.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> The east also get more snow than many of the western mountains too! Yet they don't ski anything like the west!
> 
> More doesn't always mean better!
> 
> ...




Ok. Sugarbush has better snow because it's North of Okemo and Killington has worse snow also being North of Okemo.  Got it

And thanks for the tip on western snow.  Geez, nobody would ever know without you dropping that knowledge.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> and Killington has worse snow also being North of Okemo





deadheadskier said:


> Okemo and Killington are pretty close to one another. 15ish miles by the crow


Which is it? 

Close to one another or north?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> Which is it?
> 
> Close to one another or north?



Google ---->


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

killington has better snow than okemo mainly because its 1000 feet higher.

i would say north doesnt start making a huge difference until you are east of the lake, ie, sugarbush and mad river and points north


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

Some people are way over-thinking this. It was a fake hypothetical scenario of moving a mountain simply to take distance out of the equation for impact on popularity.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Google ---->


Who needs google when it's spelled out?


deadheadskier said:


> Okemo and Killington are pretty close to one another. 15ish miles by the crow.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

You win. You put Sugarbush and Sugarloaf shoulder to shoulder as one across town in Ludlow and Okemo would still be more popular.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 27, 2021)

I am pretty sure I'll get the Epic pass this year. here's why:

Its me and my 2 kids, both under 13. I live in southern NH.

We've had passes at Ragged for 5 years. Great place, CHEAP passes, 80 minutes from my house, but we are getting bored with it. we had been doing 3-4 trips per year to other places, primarily sugarbush (2 trips 2 days each) and a few other places.

The epic pass lets us use Sunapee as our home mountain (60 mins from my place, i like it) or go to crotched (45 minutes away) for easy day trip for close to home variety. Then, we can go to Okemo, Mt snow, and Stowe- places we've been meaning to go to anyways- and it just costs me gas and the hotel room.

AND I can do solo day trips during the week to attitash, wildcat and Okemo for the cost of gas.

will there be crowds? I'm sure there will be. But we'd be at sunapee/cranmore most weekends, and at the other bigger places on the weekdays 70% of the time. I pull my kids from school to ski. They are both doing well in school and its not a problem.

Yeah, I'm almost doubling what my pass costs will be,  but I will have 2 options w/o black out dates real close to home, and free access to a bunch of other places that we will hit, and only stowe has black out dates. I can work around that.

About 3-5  trips to any place other than sunapee and crotched and it will pay for itself.

I just wish Vail had bought Sugarbush instead of Alterra  lol,  its the 1 place I'll pay for tix and hotel to ski, but we love it so I can deal with that.

IKON just doesn't have a place close enough to me to justify getting it. Loon is the closest, but I'm not going there every weekend. 

I'll try this for a year, see how it works. For me, it's a no brainer.

anyone want to tell me why I shouldn't do this?


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I just wish Vail had bought Sugarbush lol,  its the 1 place I'll pay for tix and hotel to ski, but we love it so I can deal with that.


You would be alone on wishing that! That type of talk could get you banned from the Mad River Valley!


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 27, 2021)

cdskier said:


> You would be alone on wishing that! That type of talk could get you banned from the Mad River Valley!


Oh, don't get me wrong, I wish it was still its own place, I freakin love it there. But man i wish the IKON pass had a couple mid NH mountains on it. then it would be a no brainer for us with access there too. Plus that sweet kid discount would make it a cheaper option.

How was SB this year? I haven't heard anyone raging against alterra but I haven't heard any saying wow they are great either.  I didn't make it this year, couldn't quarantine. I'm assuming you've been as I know you are there alot from talking with you before.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, I wish it was still its own place, I freakin love it there. But man i wish the IKON pass had a couple mid NH mountains on it. then it would be a no brainer for us with access there too. Plus that sweet kid discount would make it a cheaper option.
> 
> How was SB this year? I haven't heard anyone raging against alterra but I haven't heard any saying wow they are great either.  I didn't make it this year, couldn't quarantine. I'm assuming you've been as I know you are there alot from talking with you before.



From a mountain ops perspective, I think SB did a pretty good (and normal) job. All lifts operated on their standard schedules. Snowmaking seemed close to normal (hard to tell exactly if the same amount was made on every trail or not, but they were making snow when they could). Grooming seems pretty normal. Looking purely at mountain ops this season, I think you'd be hard pressed to know they had new ownership. Nothing at all like the glaring issues we've heard about at some of the Vail resorts.

From a COVID perspective I think they did a good job spacing and managing the lift lines. I didn't go in the lodges so can't comment on that part.


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## JimG. (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I am pretty sure I'll get the Epic pass this year. here's why:
> 
> Its me and my 2 kids, both under 13. I live in southern NH.
> 
> ...


You will need to spend some time but I suggest you read the "VAIL SUCKS" thread before deciding


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## Mum skier (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> OBut man i wish the IKON pass had a couple mid NH mountains on it. then it would be a no brainer for us with access there too. Plus that sweet kid discount would make it a cheaper option.


This is where I think Epic does edge it over Ikon for me as well. If you ski a lot at weekends or want to have kids in a season program you need unlimited. The only unlimited with Ikon as the two in Vermont and that’s a longer drive for people from the Boston metro area than some of Epic’s NH areas. And a lot of people are coming from those areas.
And on an Ikon base pass you can’t ski anywhere in the East at holiday periods, even Stratton or SB.  Whereas the Epic local only knocks out Stowe for holidays and even the North East version still allows you the non-destination type resorts. 

 I think the Ikon resorts are better, especially the Western offerings, but somehow the lack of unlimited at resorts that are under two hours drive doesn’t work.  Maybe they could buy Ragged, that’s about the only independent NH one I can think of.
White Mountain Super pass seems expensive and no western option.
New England pass - gave this a lot of thought, but you have to go up to gold to get any western resort discounts and only loon is really a day trip.

And so by default Epic still will get our money despite all the bad press......


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## snoseek (Mar 27, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> This is where I think Epic does edge it over Ikon for me as well. If you ski a lot at weekends or want to have kids in a season program you need unlimited. The only unlimited with Ikon as the two in Vermont and that’s a longer drive for people from the Boston metro area than some of Epic’s NH areas. And a lot of people are coming from those areas.
> And on an Ikon base pass you can’t ski anywhere in the East at holiday periods, even Stratton or SB.  Whereas the Epic local only knocks out Stowe for holidays and even the North East version still allows you the non-destination type resorts.
> 
> I think the Ikon resorts are better, especially the Western offerings, but somehow the lack of unlimited at resorts that are under two hours drive doesn’t work.  Maybe they could buy Ragged, that’s about the only independent NH one I can think of.
> ...


Ragged is actually owned by a group that has several small to midsized areas around the country. That pass gets you access to them all but none are really worth getting on a plane from. I don't see that selling anytime soon. They do a pretty good job running it IMO


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2021)

Waterville would be a good target for Ikon in NH to have as an unlimited day trip area for the Boston market.  I'm not a huge fan of the place, but I haven't been since they added Green Peak.

I'll have an Indy Pass next year, so I look forward to checking in out


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## Smellytele (Mar 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Waterville would be a good target for Ikon in NH to have as an unlimited day trip area for the Boston market.  I'm not a huge fan of the place, but I haven't been since they added Green Peak.
> 
> I'll have an Indy Pass next year, so I look forward to checking in out


Green peak is mostly just flat blue/green cruisers. Although they have a very short but very steep pitch called Wayne wong's Way where they push snow over a cliff and some how groom it.


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## Mum skier (Mar 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Waterville would be a good target for Ikon in NH to have as an unlimited day trip area for the Boston market.  I'm not a huge fan of the place, but I haven't been since they added Green Peak.
> 
> I'll have an Indy Pass next year, so I look forward to checking in out


Yes something like that would fill in the Ikon gap for the eastern MA folks. Even if it’s not great.


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## RichT (Mar 28, 2021)

I've been to Stowe twice this year first time late February Thursday thru Sunday , second early March Thursday thru Sunday. The place was packed on the weekends. Question is where do all these people come from to ski on a weekend day?


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## hovercraft (Mar 28, 2021)

They come from everywhere, even the weekdays were busy this year.


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## ss20 (Mar 28, 2021)

RichT said:


> I've been to Stowe twice this year first time late February Thursday thru Sunday , second early March Thursday thru Sunday. The place was packed on the weekends. Question is where do all these people come from to ski on a weekend day?



Go on Interstates 87, 91, 93, or 95 northbound on a Friday in January at 8pm you'll see where they come from....


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## gittist (Mar 28, 2021)

And don't forget a lot of kids were 'home-schooling' this year, people were unemployed, or skipping out on telework so that added to the weekdays.  Hopefully next year the weekdays will be back to normal.


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## Zermatt (Mar 29, 2021)

Ikon ski areas are total crap.  I encourage everyone to get Epic Passes so you can ski at much better mountains for less money.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 29, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> Ikon ski areas are total crap.  I encourage everyone to get Epic Passes so you can ski at much better mountains for less money.



Is this a "there is nothing to see here!"  If so, Ikon has that built in with the limited number of days unless you like Stratton - although I can see the desire to steer people away from Sugarbush.


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## Cat in January (Jun 17, 2021)

Thanks guys, two places I want to ski.  I have skied Jay, but just preseason touring


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Green peak is mostly just flat blue/green cruisers. Although they have a very short but very steep pitch called Wayne wong's Way where they push snow over a cliff and some how groom it.


Thats is the best description of that run I've ever heard!


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## puckoach (Jan 28, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Ikon ski areas are total crap.  I encourage everyone to get Epic Passes so you can ski at much better mountains for less money.


You might want to re think that....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 28, 2022)

puckoach said:


> You might want to re think that....


I think he is using reverse psychology.


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## jaytrem (Jan 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I think he is using reverse psychology.


And it would have worked until you had to open your big mouth!


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## abc (Jan 28, 2022)

puckoach said:


> You might want to re think that....


Resurrecting a thread that's many months old? Someone's lacking a bit of humor.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 28, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> And it would have worked until you had to open your big mouth!



yeah I'm sure the  274 page,  and counting, Vail Sucks thread would be glossed right over...


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## gittist (Jan 29, 2022)

Just think, next year Vail Resorts will pay us to ski there.


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