# Vote for Utah ski bus



## ScottySkis (Jun 18, 2020)

Speak now or forever sit in traffic!

UDOT is seeking public comment regarding three draft transportation alternatives for improving safety, reliability and mobility in Little Cottonwood Canyon. The three alternatives are:
• Enhanced bus service
• Enhanced bus service with road widening
• Gondola

We encourage you to become familiar with the three alternatives and let UDOT know what alternative you prefer, as well as, any adjustments you feel should be considered. Thank you in advance for doing so.

Your voice matters.

The comment period ends July 10th --> https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> Speak now or forever sit in traffic!
> 
> UDOT is seeking public comment regarding three draft transportation alternatives for improving safety, reliability and mobility in Little Cottonwood Canyon. The three alternatives are:
> • Enhanced bus service
> ...



You mean vote for Gondola?


----------



## andrec10 (Jun 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You mean vote for Gondola?



This! Though whenever I go to Snowbird, I always stay there to alleviate driving up the Canyon road.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> You mean vote for Gondola?



Yes


----------



## p_levert (Jun 18, 2020)

I just "voted" for the gondola.  Besides winter, I think it would be a great summer attraction.


----------



## Not Sure (Jun 18, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I just "voted" for the gondola.  Besides winter, I think it would be a great summer attraction.



Head scratch ...Covid ?  UV air filters on board and sanitized after every passenger.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 18, 2020)

None of this matters. Utah is gonna do what they want and whatever makes some crooked cock republican more money in his pocket. The same dude that never skis and doesn’t care about outdoors and just throws nickels at 12 year old Asian boys to get his cock cleaned with the rest of the Mormon kiddy diddlers. 

Also, none of this shit will come about for at least 3-5 years. Then 3-5 more in construction wether it be gondola or wider road. 

So this is pointless. You are also a goamer if you can’t figure out cottonwood traffic.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2020)

FBGM said:


> None of this matters. Utah is gonna do what they want and whatever makes some crooked cock republican more money in his pocket. The same dude that never skis and doesn’t care about outdoors and just throws nickels at 12 year old Asian boys to get his cock cleaned with the rest of the Mormon kiddy diddlers.
> 
> Also, none of this shit will come about for at least 3-5 years. Then 3-5 more in construction wether it be gondola or wider road.
> 
> So this is pointless. You are also a goamer if you can’t figure out cottonwood traffic.



Well, tell us how you really feel....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 18, 2020)

When this came about a week ago I read all the proposals & was pretty shocked that widening the road & adding buses was actually considerably more expensive than running one of the longest gondolas on earth.

The other takeaway I noted is that every proposal bans parking on the road, and includes tolls.  So I guess those two things are coming no matter what.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 19, 2020)

Interesting proposal all around.

they should just build the One Wassatch thing while they are at it. If they are going to toll the NIMBY back country folks to drive up to their "hidden spot" might as well give them both middle fingers and build the Gondola network.  I know Utah doesn't need more skiers based on car traffic, but if there are no cars then is more people a problem?  Would it even be more people or just better efficiency in getting the current ski population to the goods?  My bet is on the latter.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 19, 2020)

I hope they'll wait and take no action for a couple years and don't ask people to comment until after this pandemic is over.  COVID has destroyed mass transit and gas under $2/gallon does not help.  Ask people for their opinion now and everyone will say "make it a 2 lane road so I can get my car up there because I'm not sharing bus/gondola air with 2 dozen strangers from out-of-state".  

Yes Utah has a skier transit issue and a long-term solution is needed.  To get the solution right the first time don't ask for comments in the middle of a pandemic.  

I'm glad to see a gondola even being considered.  Without 3S technology this wouldn't even be technologically possible 12-15 years ago.


----------



## jimk (Jun 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Interesting proposal all around.
> 
> they should just build the One Wassatch thing while they are at it. If they are going to toll the NIMBY back country folks to drive up to their "hidden spot" might as well give them both middle fingers and build the Gondola network.  I know Utah doesn't need more skiers based on car traffic, but if there are no cars then is more people a problem?  Would it even be more people or just better efficiency in getting the current ski population to the goods?  My bet is on the latter.




I agree with this.  Build the gondi up LCC, put dedicated parking for it at base of canyon.  Put terminals at Snowbird, Alta, and continue it over to connect with Sol/Bright.  This could help reduce car traffic up both canyons.


----------



## Cornhead (Jun 19, 2020)

jimk said:


> I agree with this.  Build the gondi up LCC, put dedicated parking for it at base of canyon.  Put terminals at Snowbird, Alta, and continue it over to connect with Sol/Bright.  This could help reduce car traffic up both canyons.


I

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Interesting proposal all around.
> 
> they should just build the One Wassatch thing while they are at it. If they are going to toll the NIMBY back country folks to drive up to their "hidden spot" might as well give them both middle fingers and build the Gondola network.  I know Utah doesn't need more skiers based on car traffic, but if there are no cars then is more people a problem?  Would it even be more people or just better efficiency in getting the current ski population to the goods?  My bet is on the latter.



One Wasatch is not a public project; that is a joint-effort between the private resorts (or at least once was a project).  No real movement on it lately.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I hope they'll wait and take no action for a couple years and don't ask people to comment until after this pandemic is over.  COVID has destroyed mass transit and gas under $2/gallon does not help.  Ask people for their opinion now and everyone will say "make it a 2 lane road so I can get my car up there because I'm not sharing bus/gondola air with 2 dozen strangers from out-of-state".
> 
> Yes Utah has a skier transit issue and a long-term solution is needed.  To get the solution right the first time don't ask for comments in the middle of a pandemic.
> 
> I'm glad to see a gondola even being considered.  Without 3S technology this wouldn't even be technologically possible 12-15 years ago.



You should make that point to them in public comment.  I'm serious.  Things are far from normal right now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> *COVID has destroyed mass transit* and gas under $2/gallon does not help.  Ask people for their opinion now and *everyone will say "make it a 2 lane road so I can get my car up there because I'm not sharing bus/gondola air with 2 dozen strangers* from out-of-state".



Anecdotal at the moment, but auto sales have increased very recently.  I think it might be partially related to the above, people forsaking public transportation as unsafe.  I need to do more research, but I may have to add F to my COVID19 distressed equity portfolio.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2020)

jimk said:


> I agree with this. * Build the gondi up LCC, put dedicated parking for it at base of canyon.  Put terminals at Snowbird, Alta, and continue it over to connect with Sol/Bright.*  This could help reduce car traffic up both canyons.



Then connect Brighton to Deer Valley with another lift.  

If ONE Wasatch ever happens, the marketing advantage for the UT Front/Back area would be unmatchable in North America.


----------



## machski (Jun 19, 2020)

jimk said:


> I agree with this.  Build the gondi up LCC, put dedicated parking for it at base of canyon.  Put terminals at Snowbird, Alta, and continue it over to connect with Sol/Bright.  This could help reduce car traffic up both canyons.


Look at their proposed capacity of the gondola.  Even being a 3S system, the capacity is paltry for just LCC alone.  Don't even suggest they extend this proposal over to BCC too!.  BCC needs its own solution!!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2020)

machski said:


> Don't even suggest they extend this proposal over to BCC too!.  BCC needs its own solution!!



One obvious no-brainer is to build a small 1.5 mile tunnel between LCC & BCC.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then connect Brighton to Deer Valley with another lift.
> 
> If ONE Wasatch ever happens, the marketing advantage for the UT Front/Back area would be unmatchable in North America.



Lol...
There is green space between the two. No lift going there. Also DV not going to connect to anyone. Let alone crap hole Brighton owned by competitor company. 

Good try. Try again. Look at a map this time too


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Lol...
> There is green space between the two. No lift going there. *Also DV not going to connect to anyone. Let alone crap hole Brighton* owned by competitor company.
> 
> Good try. Try again. Look at a map this time too



 Then connect Park City to Brighton for the BCC leg.  Who cares.

Your opinion is rather naive.  Where there are millions of dollars involved, there is a will and a way.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 19, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> I
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



???


----------



## FBGM (Jun 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then connect Park City to Brighton for the BCC leg.  Who cares.
> 
> Your opinion is rather naive.  Where there are millions of dollars involved, there is a will and a way.



What don’t you understand about land leases, public land, green space and different companies?

This is like saying Walmart should have a moving sidewalk from their store to Target. 

1 Wasatch is never happening. End of story Jerry. Useless idea, does jack shit for traffic. You are probably the type of skier the loves the Park City, let’s ride 7 lifts to ski for 20 minutes. 

Stay in Jersey, go ski Breck, brag to the boys at the club that you skied the black diamonds there and the service at the St Regis was sub bar and you’re wife Karen wants a refund.


----------



## JimG. (Jun 20, 2020)

This should be good.


----------



## jimk (Jun 20, 2020)

machski said:


> Look at their proposed capacity of the gondola.  Even being a 3S system, the capacity is paltry for just LCC alone.  Don't even suggest they extend this proposal over to BCC too!.  BCC needs its own solution!!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Good point.  Talked to my son who knows more.  He favors dedicated bus lane with tons more bus lines.  But heck, throw in the gondi too for stormy weather when road is closed for avi mitigation.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 20, 2020)

FBGM said:


> What don’t you understand about land leases, public land, green space and different companies?



Why dont you explain all this in detail.  

Please start with your treatise on _"different companies" _, that ought' be amusing.



FBGM said:


> 1 Wasatch is never happening. End of story Jerry. Useless idea, does jack shit for traffic.



You think it's really about traffic?   That is just adorable!


----------



## FBGM (Jun 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why dont you explain all this in detail.
> 
> Please start with your treatise on _"different companies" _, that ought' be amusing.
> 
> ...



I am adorable, do you have a daughter? I can give you my # for her

1 Wasatch is not about traffic. That was some fucking idiotic idea that they “said was for traffic” to keep the tree huggers happy. 

Traffic is PC proper is not to much behind the suck level of BCC and LCC. We got the funds up here in this hood to solve it. But with corona time going on all this shit is non relevant. 

This took me 2 coffees to type on my phone. Gonna go poop now.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 21, 2020)

jimk said:


> Good point.  Talked to my son who knows more.  He favors dedicated bus lane with tons more bus lines.  But heck, throw in the gondi too for stormy weather when road is closed for avi mitigation.



I've commuted this road a bit and to me this is the easy solution. A steep toll for non workers would help fund the extra bussing. The parking needs to be addressed as well


----------



## kingslug (Jun 21, 2020)

Park City traffic...Not too bad from the Doubletree to the slopes..much better than LCC...The skiing on the other hand does not compare but can be good..at least you can get to it. Its why we base out of PC and ski at Altabird when we want.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 21, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Park City traffic...Not too bad from the Doubletree to the slopes..much better than LCC...The skiing on the other hand does not compare but can be good..at least you can get to it. Its why we base out of PC and ski at Altabird when we want.



With half the snow of 4 SlC hills though no thanks.
I need to out west been 10 years .


----------



## kingslug (Jun 21, 2020)

I've skied plenty of powder at PC and Deer Valley. As with any mountain, you have to be there to get it. LCC and now BCC get slammed with unmovable traffic on a powder day. If you do make it up there you have a big risk of getting stranded trying to get out..hapened to me countless times. So it really doesn't matter how much snow a place accumulates at the moment. that counts for end of season skiing. If PC gets a 1 or 2 foot dump and LCC gets 3..but you can't get there..well..I'm at PC with 7500 acres to mess around with. And it has plenty of steep stuff. The PC haters..and I was one of them when I was at LCC all the time, always say they would die before they ski PC...OK..die. I'll be skiing.  And they have good food all over the place...not so much in the surrounding area of LCC. 
To each his own.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 21, 2020)

FBGM said:


> do you have a daughter? I can give you my # for her



Yes.  She's 10 months old, so she's already far too mature for you.



snoseek said:


> I've commuted this road a bit and to me this is the easy solution. A steep toll for non workers would help fund the extra bussing. The parking needs to be addressed as well



RE: massive increases in busing.   Would people actually take the bus?   It can be hard to change people culturally.  I know personally spending 45 minutes per day dealing with a ski bus & 50 of your closest friends would be a pretty big negative.



kingslug said:


> Park City traffic...Not too bad from the Doubletree to the slopes..much better than LCC...



If those canyons are experiencing the problems they are now, I cant even imagine how horrible it's going to be in a decade or so if the population dynamic forecasts are correct.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 22, 2020)

And thats what sucks for me. I want to move there. I've seen a huge change (obviously) in the past 22 years. Used to be a good dump day was no problem except for avalanches closing the road up and back. Traffic was heavy but not insane. Its a total shitshow now. My friends out there have spent 2 to 3 hours just getting up there and the same getting back..and they live 10 minutes from the road. No way do I want to sit on that road with potential avalanches waiting above me..scary as hell. Its why I like Jackson and now PC..easy to get to. Ad all these plans to mitigate it..yeah..that will happen..never. The logistics are insane. Any plan would take years and be fought no matter what. 
As I see it..the only way to score powder days and not deal with shitshows is to ski in obscure like you find in BC and Europe. And deal with the fact that you  may not get powder but you won't get crowds (yet) either. 
The times..they are a changing...….


----------



## gregnye (Jun 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> RE: massive increases in busing.   Would people actually take the bus?   It can be hard to change people culturally.  I know personally spending 45 minutes per day dealing with a ski bus & 50 of your closest friends would be a pretty big negative.



I've taken the ski bus when I was in Utah, since my rental car didn't have chains/awd. It took forever, was extremely crowded, and was very warm inside.

I refused to go back to SLC because of the Cottonwood Canyon situation.

Buses are not the solution to the problem. Neither is adding a lane for cars--that just increases traffic. Any good traffic engineer knows about induced demand.

The real options are: Subway/Train system (would be pretty expensive) or Gondola. I vote for the gondola because it's something skiers know/are familiar with already. 

The gondola is also not extremely warm, does not require diesel to run, has lower maintenance costs than a bus, and is not as expensive to run in terms of staffing power (increased bus service requires adding drivers--bus drivers are a skilled job--requires CDL). 

Bus also suffers from heavy snow/traffic issues. Even if the bus has a dedicated lane, what if some driver with a Chevy Tahoe skids out on the side. Guess what the dedicated lane is now blocked, slowing the bus down.

I work for a bus service and even I prefer the gondola...

The idea that they are even considering the gondola gives me hope--perhaps too much hope for Utah.


----------



## Edd (Jun 22, 2020)

If you’re flying somewhere to ski anyway, there are so many choices that the Cottonwood areas don’t seem worth the hassle. I’ve been a couple of times and had no issues but these stories are discouraging me from returning. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## FBGM (Jun 22, 2020)

My vote goes for single person drone drops. Super drone come picks me up at my house with all my gear on. Then just flys me over to and plops me down on top of said mountain. Boom. Gonna start this business - let me call Bezos up and get him in. Future is here. FBGM is at the forefront.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 22, 2020)

I used to take the ski bus from SLC and Midvale..totaly sucked..Had to stand the whole way and sweat my ass off...Fuggetaboutit. 
I tend to like staying on the mountain and gettting first chair..and if you get interlodged for a few hours..more the better when you get out.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 22, 2020)

You realize if they just essentially shut the road down and beef up the frequency of busses and parking almost all the issues go away right? The problem with the lcc road is the drivers not equipped with AWD or snow skills. Its not an issue when the road is clear usually


----------



## kingslug (Jun 22, 2020)

Yup..No wheel drive..terified noobs..its a mess. A full on bus system might work..park at the bottom and ride up. They would need a lot more parking.


----------



## Cornhead (Jun 22, 2020)

FBGM said:


> My vote goes for single person drone drops. Super drone come picks me up at my house with all my gear on. Then just flys me over to and plops me down on top of said mountain. Boom. Gonna start this business - let me call Bezos up and get him in. Future is here. FBGM is at the forefront.



Yes! Wouldn't need to pick you up at home. Drive to back country spot, ride drone to the top, drone follows you back down, calls for help if necessary, repeat. Sadly, I need a pretty powerful drone these days.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Not Sure (Jun 22, 2020)

Or some 1800's Pa. Coal mining technology ? Sort of like the Cog Railway with a 5 mile gravity railway ? 
http://pabook2.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/Switchback.html


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 22, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *thats what sucks for me. I want to move there. I've seen a huge change (obviously) in the past 22 years. *Used to be a good dump day was no problem except for avalanches closing the road up and back. Traffic was heavy but not insane. Its a total shitshow now. My friends out there have spent 2 to 3 hours just getting up there and the same getting back..and they live 10 minutes from the road.



We're in the exploratory phase for moving out west to a ski locale, and this is the 1 thing that really scares us about Utah.  There doesn't seem to be any sort of zoning concern among the powers that be, and there are now tower cranes and/or homes going up everywhere on the Front.  On the Back, condos & townhouses seem to be reproducing faster than bacterial fission.  Some poor old farmer kicks-off near Heber & his 3 kids sell the 50 acres rather than working their azzes off on the land & 200 more units quickly go up.   It's such a wonderful place, but I'm very leery of that.



Edd said:


> *If you’re flying somewhere to ski anyway, there are so many choices that the Cottonwood areas don’t seem worth the hassle. I’ve been a couple of times and had no issues but these stories are discouraging me from returning.*



You'd think Ski Utah & the various resorts would be cognizant of this & rather fearful, but I'm not sure that's the case.  In any event, I'm sure the opinion you're expressing is not uncommon, as I'm starting to hear it more & more as a "concern" regarding vacation from ski peeps.



snoseek said:


> You realize *if they just essentially shut the road down and beef up the frequency of busses and parking almost all the issues go away right?* The problem with the lcc road is the drivers not equipped with AWD or snow skills. Its not an issue when the road is clear usually



The is 0 chance they ban private vehicles.  I cant imagine that getting passed, and if it did, it would crush them financially.  Tourists would say, screw that, I'll go Colorado (or Montana, or California, or ______insert western ski locale).


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2020)

Wouldn't Utah just look at Colorado front range and see people still flock there despite the bad traffic?  Really hasn't been much done to I70 to improve the situation in Colorado.  

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## jimk (Jun 23, 2020)

The LCC/BCC road situation is getting worse, but it's still not so bad that I'd advise people to skip it, by any means.  Trailboss would be the best guy to comment.  I've spent most of the last two winters in UT and visited often the three winters before that.  The big problem is when there is more than 6" new snow on Friday or Saturday nights between Christmas to mid-March.  Meaning - enough new snow to draw out the high number of Utah powder snobs (people who primarily come out only for big snow days) and also cause road closures due to avi mitigation work.  This winter that only meant about 4-5 really messed up morning drives.  Last winter was much snowier and maybe there were 7-8 really messed up days.  The problem is some of the very best days are the ones that are messed up.  But still there are another 150 very decent ski days out here 

Also, if you are a visiting vacationer and stay up in the canyons it's almost a moot point except for the very rare situations when the road is closed when you need to catch plane home.
In my opinion, I'd rather deal with a few messed up days in UT per winter when most days it's a 20 minute ride, than deal with heavy traffic on Interstate 70 driving from Denver, CO all winter long, when it's about 75-90 min drive on good days.  I also know that traffic from Boston or NYC to many New England resorts is not always a picnic during prime winter weekends.

PS:  one more thing, the best weekends now for moderate crowds are the holiday weekends.  This is because they are blacked out for the IKON basic pass.  The basic has been a big seller with Utah locals and the black out really makes a difference.  I was at Snowbird for one day Prez Weekend 2020.  It was a powder day, yet one of the smallest weekend crowds I experienced this winter.  My son said Christmas week and MLK weekend were also good for moderate crowds.  So if you have full IKON, then visit on a holiday black out time.  (BTW black out days on Epic local are similarly light at Park City.)


----------



## FBGM (Jun 23, 2020)

Lol at that scrub above not wanting to move to Utah because farmers making their property into cookie cutter homes. Get out more, way better stuff then Mo Land then Lehi

Covid time is gonna make all thought of this go away. When Snowbird says they are only taking 1,000 people per day this year, that will really cut down on traffic Hahahaha 

Backcountry still empty. The good backcountry that is. With no traffic.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 23, 2020)

So...the first 1000 to show up...that should be entertaining.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 23, 2020)

kingslug said:


> So...the first 1000 to show up...that should be entertaining.



I could see them doing pre-paid reservations if this Corona time goes into winter which it sure looks like it will. So no, not first come show up shit show. Maybe tram closed lift only. 

This could be the norm at all ski areas this winter. Limited amount of peeps on hill and on lifts.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 23, 2020)

How about Alta? I prefer it there.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 23, 2020)

kingslug said:


> How about Alta? I prefer it there.



Alta is for Natzis


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 23, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Lol at that scrub above not wanting to move to Utah because farmers making their property into cookie cutter homes. Get out more, way better stuff then Mo Land then Lehi



Oh yes, please do entertain us with your vast real estate knowledge & prognosticate the future of the Wasatch market a decade or so out.  I only hope that in-depth market analysis will include a discussion of how _ "different companies"_ with affect & alter the landscape.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 23, 2020)

We already know enough about COVID19 to know that gondolas are absolutely toast until not only is there an approved vaccine available, but that significant penetration of that vaccine has occurred to enable you to have enough customers numerically to make running gondola cars financially worthwhile.  

Were I forced to predict how this plays out, l'd probably say you'll need a dated proof of vaccine plus 21 days to step inside a gondola.  Outside os that, the only remote possibility I can see for gondolas this winter is that some resorts may run them in "at your own risk" fashion, but force you to sign a COVID19 awareness liability waiver to ride them, though I think that's less likely.  Trams shouldn't be much different, though I could see one or two of the few tram operators in North America trying to run them with far lower occupancy.  

Anyway, if anyone does run a gondola or tram this winter, you do NOT want to be on one.  I can think of no better SARS spreading environment than an enclosed box with poor ventilation, protected from ultraviolet light, operating in the winter, at low temperature & at high altitude. If COVID19 were an evil sentient being planning its' strategy for attack while sitting behind a mahogany desk smoking a cigar, that's exactly what it would come up with.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2020)

Why can’t they just restrict gondola cabins to members of the same household?


----------



## kingslug (Jun 24, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Alta is for Natzis


 Do you have this as a bumper sticker???


----------



## ss20 (Jun 24, 2020)

Killington's gondola is opening next weekend....


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 24, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Killington's gondola is opening next weekend....



And Jackson Hole's has been running since the end of May.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 24, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Do you have this as a bumper sticker???



Negative. I like skiing there. Natzi it is.   

Off to lick gondola doors!!! See if I can dumb down my Brian to get to Benedict’s Level.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 24, 2020)

FBGM said:


> See if I can dumb down my Brian



Brian's his gimp.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 24, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> *Why can’t they just restrict gondola cabins to members of the same household?*



The hazard doesn't go away due to non-immediate proximity to the vector(s).  

COVID19 transmission is primarily via aerisolization, so in your example of 5 members of a family in a gondy cab, let's say only Father has the virus.  When they exit the cabin viral particulate will still remain in the air for the next group who enters.  What's the average interior gondy size?  I'll use Stowe as an example and say maybe 25 feet, give or take.  That's really, really, tight for 4 or 6 bodies.

In that tight an environment with no ventilation & low humidity, based on known indoor contact tracing multiple-person spreading examples we have in conditions which are far less "dangerous" than a gondy, I'd speculate almost everyone in that next cabin would contract COVID19.  Bonus "contagion points" if Dad's a bit winded from a tough mogul run.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 24, 2020)

ss20 said:


> *Killington's gondola is opening next weekend.*...




Pretty shocked to hear Killington's opening the gondola next week, especially in Vermont, the state taking COVID19 the most over-the-top in terms of excessive restrictions versus low infection in the state.  

But perhaps I shouldn't be shocked since many of these politicians coast-to-coast who claim to be making rules based on _"following the science"_, seem to be doing anything but making rules following the science.  If Vermont grossly over-regulated whimsically based not on science, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised they under-regulate on the backside of this crisis not based on science.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2020)

That's what I'm wondering about virtually all opening "phase rules".  It all seems so arbitrary.  

University of New Hampshire just put out their plans today.  Among other changes they are reducing dorm capacity by 50%. 

So, what is the data behind such a decision?  Do they feel it will result in 50% less infections?   It can't. 


https://www.fosters.com/news/20200623/unh-reopening-plan-dorms-50-capacity-or-less


Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mbedle (Jun 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The hazard doesn't go away due to non-immediate proximity to the vector(s).
> 
> COVID19 transmission is primarily via aerisolization, so in your example of 5 members of a family in a gondy cab, let's say only Father has the virus.  When they exit the cabin viral particulate will still remain in the air for the next group who enters.  What's the average interior gondy size?  I'll use Stowe as an example and say maybe 25 feet, give or take.  That's really, really, tight for 4 or 6 bodies.
> 
> In that tight an environment with no ventilation & low humidity, based on known indoor contact tracing multiple-person spreading examples we have in conditions which are far less "dangerous" than a gondy, I'd speculate almost everyone in that next cabin would contract COVID19.  Bonus "contagion points" if Dad's a bit winded from a tough mogul run.



How about taking out all the windows in the gondola? You've got four small windows on the front and back and two larger ones on the door. Maybe leave the doors open on the return trip to air out the gondola?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Brian's his gimp.



lol - good one.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 24, 2020)

I just looked at Stowe's operating plan for the summer and if that continues into the winter, its going to be a shit-show... Lift lines for as far as you can see... lol


----------



## EPB (Jun 24, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I just looked at Stowe's operating plan for the summer and if that continues into the winter, its going to be a shit-show... Lift lines for as far as you can see... lol


The waiver way to go, if feasible, is probably best. If one is too stupid to realize they could get COVID-19 at a ski area, then they'd also be too stupid to get themselves to the ski area or hire a lawyer in the first place. That said, it's undoubtedly much more complicated than that.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Killingtime (Jun 24, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I just looked at Stowe's operating plan for the summer and if that continues into the winter, its going to be a shit-show... Lift lines for as far as you can see... lol



That's my fear for the winter. Went on Amazon a few weeks ago and bought every Northeast backcountry book I could find. I think I could fill a season off the grid if I had to. The wife ain't digging the idea though. But seriously, there will most likely be some kind of mandated protocol ski resorts will have to follow and it will probably include a long wait time to get on a lift. I think we will all have to have a lot of patience this year which unfortunately for me, I'm not good at.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 24, 2020)

mbedle said:


> *How about taking out all the windows in the gondola? You've got four small windows on the front and back and two larger ones on the door. Maybe leave the doors open on the return trip to air out the gondola?*



I'm not the lift construction aficionado many on here are, but I dont view that as sufficient from the gondys I can immediately think of (Stowe, Whiteface, Gore, Snowbasin) as the windows are just way too small.  

It's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I just dont think it would make a sufficient enough positive difference given how small & confined a space it is.  We're talking about nanometer-sized particles here.  And given it's not like the CDC is going to run a "_COVID19 gondola study_", there's no way we will know.  But from what I've learned of proven known indoor spreading incidents globally, there is absolutely no way in hell you will catch me in a gondola at any ski resort until 3 weeks after I've been injected with a vaccine.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 24, 2020)

Small ski areas are going to get my money this year. 
Staying away from the Stowes and Killingtons of the world


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## p_levert (Jun 24, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> That's what I'm wondering about virtually all opening "phase rules".  It all seems so arbitrary.
> 
> University of New Hampshire just put out their plans today.  Among other changes they are reducing dorm capacity by 50%.
> 
> ...



I think they are moving to all single rooms, no?  I can see the benefit from that.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 24, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Small ski areas are going to get my money this year.
> Staying away from the Stowes and Killingtons of the world
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I'm trending this way as well.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 25, 2020)

Its too bad that the Stowes..is where our second home is   
I'm trying not to think about this yet.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not the lift construction aficionado many on here are, but I dont view that as sufficient from the gondys I can immediately think of (Stowe, Whiteface, Gore, Snowbasin) as the windows are just way too small.
> 
> It's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I just dont think it would make a sufficient enough positive difference given how small & confined a space it is.  We're talking about nanometer-sized particles here.  And given it's not like the CDC is going to run a "_COVID19 gondola study_", there's no way we will know.  But from what I've learned of proven known indoor spreading incidents globally, there is absolutely no way in hell you will catch me in a gondola at any ski resort until 3 weeks after I've been injected with a vaccine.



I agree that the window sizing is probably not enough to prevent spread among people riding up together. I was more thinking that with the windows and doors being open on the return down, it would provide enough air circulation to basically clear out each gondola. It shall be interesting to see how it all goes down this season.


----------



## machski (Jun 25, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I agree that the window sizing is probably not enough to prevent spread among people riding up together. I was more thinking that with the windows and doors being open on the return down, it would provide enough air circulation to basically clear out each gondola. It shall be interesting to see how it all goes down this season.


Either way, Loon is opening their tight box to summer riders early July.  A 4 pax gondola, no thanks.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## kingslug (Jun 25, 2020)

My prediction is that the earn your turns market is going to boom. This will help the guide industry..hell..most people don't even know you can rent guides for east coast skiing..they all think its a western and European thing. I'm up for it..have to get a little better in the trees though.


----------



## Killingtime (Jun 25, 2020)

kingslug said:


> My prediction is that the earn your turns market is going to boom. This will help the guide industry..hell..most people don't even know you can rent guides for east coast skiing..they all think its a western and European thing. I'm up for it..have to get a little better in the trees though.



Yep, I think you may be correct. Just picked up a copy of "Best Backcountry Skiing in the Northeast - 50 Classic Ski Tours". Most of it is centered around New Hampshire but covers a lot in VT, NY and MA too. Interesting read that gives detailed directions and GPS locations. A lot of s--t I didn't even know existed and much of it is pretty accessible. I've never used uphill skins before but I guess we all have to start somewhere...Just hedging against the worst case scenario that I am praying we avoid.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2020)

Seems like the rescue crews could be busy next year with all these new backcountry "adventurers".


----------



## drjeff (Jun 26, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Seems like the rescue crews could be busy next year with all these new backcountry "adventurers".



That's about a 99.999% certainty!  What should we set the over/under at for how many rescue reports have "then my cell phone lost service..." in the first few sentences?


----------



## kingslug (Jun 26, 2020)

Good thing all my skis have AT bindings and I have very good AT boots..my wife on the other hand........


----------



## FBGM (Jun 26, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Seems like the rescue crews could be busy next year with all these new backcountry "adventurers".



Nah, more like lots more Jerry jerk offs with no business stepping into the BC will die and collect innocent regulars who know. Kickin cornices for the gram and dropping lines with peeps below. Standard weekend in LCC. Multiply that this winter 5x with every dentist dad and his $4000 touring set up that saw a avy report once and now says he’s an expert


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Nah, more like lots more Jerry jerk offs with no business stepping into the BC will die and collect innocent regulars who know. Kickin cornices for the gram and dropping lines with peeps below. Standard weekend in LCC. Multiply that this winter 5x with every dentist dad and his $4000 touring set up that saw a avy report once and now says he’s an expert



Just a long way to say what I was saying


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## NYDB (Jun 27, 2020)

K starting to run K-1 Gondi 7 days a week on 7/3.  I guess we'll see how it goes.


----------



## jimk (Jul 15, 2020)

I rode a bike past the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon today.  Here is a photo of the area where a proposed gondola base station might be built.


There are some big, pricey homes close to the base of the canyon.  This one, for example, must be 10k sq ft.  Even though a lot of these sit empty except for a few weeks per year, the owners might put up a fight if they tried to string a gondi line near/over them.


----------



## djd66 (Jul 15, 2020)

jimk said:


> I rode a bike past the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon today.  Here is a photo of the area where a proposed gondola base station might be built.
> View attachment 26972
> 
> There are some big, pricey homes close to the base of the canyon.  This one, for example, must be 10k sq ft.  Even though a lot of these sit empty except for a few weeks per year, the owners might put up a fight if they tried to string a gondi line near/over them.
> View attachment 26973




They built righ next to a highway. Not sure what they would object to,... I think the Gondi will help increase value in their property.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 15, 2020)

jimk said:


> Even though a lot of these sit empty except for a few weeks per year, the owners might put up a fight if they tried to string a gondi line near/over them.



From your pic it looks like a few empty lots as well.   The (likely) investment group(s) who own those will take a bit of an 'L' there too.



djd66 said:


> They built righ next to a highway. Not sure what they would object to,... *I think the Gondi will help increase value in their property.*



Why would you think that?   People who buy multi-million dollar homes aren't taking the gondola.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 15, 2020)

I don't know.  The multi-million dollar home owners I know that live there say they hope the gondola goes in.  I'm not even kidding.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 15, 2020)

I really hope that Utah doesn't screw this up.  They have a chance to do something rather revolutionary, at least for US Ski areas.  

As I said when 1 Wasatch came out, I know its likely dead, they should absolutely build a network connecting the 3 areas that contain 6 resorts. It really would be something special.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 15, 2020)

I am wondering why they don't consider a train up the canyon like Zermatt.  Weather won't impact it and they can build Avi barriers at all the slide paths.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 15, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I really hope that Utah doesn't screw this up.  They have a chance to do something rather revolutionary, at least for US Ski areas.
> 
> As I said when 1 Wasatch came out, I know its likely dead, they should absolutely build a network connecting the 3 areas that contain 6 resorts. It really would be something special.



ONE Wasatch would be an absolute financial game-changer for the entire region.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 15, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I am wondering why they don't consider a train up the canyon like Zermatt.  Weather won't impact it and they can build Avi barriers at all the slide paths.



++100
I agree it would be awesome thing for everyone.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 15, 2020)

Hawk said:


> *I am wondering why they don't consider a train up the canyon like Zermatt. * Weather won't impact it and they can build Avi barriers at all the slide paths.



Even more expensive.


----------



## x10003q (Jul 16, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even more expensive.



So true.
But if money was no object  - 
1. Buy the Old Mill Golf course which is right off I-215, Exit 6
2. Tunnel from near the golf course up to SB, Alta, Brighton, Solitude to create a subway type system
3. In addition to parking, build some kind of transit village on the Old Mill Golf course to recover some costs via real estate
4. Toll BCC Rd and LCC Rd


----------



## jimk (Jul 16, 2020)

x10003q said:


> So true.
> But if money was no object  -
> 1. Buy the Old Mill Golf course which is right off I-215, Exit 6
> 2. Tunnel from near the golf course up to SB, Alta, Brighton, Solitude to create a subway type system
> ...



Hey don't mess with that beautiful golf course


There is a giant gravel pit and eyesore that is even closer to the mouth of BCC.  Build your transit village there.  It's to the right in this photo.  Old Mill GC is beyond it out of sight on the other side of Wasatch BLVD.


----------



## machski (Jul 16, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I am wondering why they don't consider a train up the canyon like Zermatt.  Weather won't impact it and they can build Avi barriers at all the slide paths.


Build Avi barriers?!  There is your answer why no right there.  The purists would go mad if you engineer up the terrain more than what is already done in the Canyon.  That is why a Gondola would fit better, minimal land disturbance.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even more expensive.



Correct.  Too expensive and the environmental impact is much more extensive requiring more reviews from the NFS and others.  

That said, there was once a railroad up there back in the day (mining railroad that followed the current road) and Snowbird's Ted Johnson ALWAYS wanted a railroad to run up LCC, over to BCC, and back down.  Never happened because 50 years ago it was...drumroll....too expensive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2020)

So last week we spent a week up in Northern Idaho at Lake Couer d'Alene.  While folks may only know about Sun Valley in Idaho and MAYBE Schweitzer, there are MANY other medium-sized places and even larger places that are out there for skiing and riding.  Look up Bogus Basin, Pebble Creek, Tamarack, and Pomerelle to name a few.  One that will pop up in your search is an interesting one that is relevant to this thread and that is Silver Mountain located in Kellogg, Idaho literally RIGHT OFF Interstate 90.  

Like Park City, Kellogg is an old mining town that found itself in major need of reinvention when the mining ended.  There was a small ski area located high up off the valley floor that started in 1967 and was named the Jackass Ski Bowl.  Like Park City, the ski area sat on land owned by a mining company.  

The area went through an owner or two and eventually was leased to Kellogg City who decided that a new gondola, running over three miles from I-90 up to the ski area would create jobs, interest in the area, and drive tourism.  The gondola was built in 1990 using federal, local tax dollars, and some private money.  It remains the longest single span gondola in North America.  

The City would transfer the ski area to private hands. The last two owners have invested more money into it.  The resort now has a full indoor waterpark at the base and some new hotels (sound familiar?).

We visited on Thursday to ride the gondola and check out the area.  Round trip for an adult was $19.00 or so.  The gondola is just over three miles long one way.  It climbs nearly 3,400 vertical feet with 45 towers.  The ride took about 20 minutes or so at a slower speed and was just amazing.  The line runs over the lower parking lot area, up over the first ridge and then down OVER a valley and then over a SEPARATE town named Wardner.  The gondola passes over several houses and a street, before ascending the final climb to the ski area.  The ski area was decent sized with about 2,000 vertical feet of skiing and riding served by older Von Roll fixed grip lifts.  

I'll post some pics, but needless to say, it was pretty busy for a random Thursday during a pandemic with a steady stream of guests.  It certainly was a draw for us.  I think that it could work for LCC but I agree that a 3S would be better.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2020)

Liftblog's post on the lift:  https://liftblog.com/gondola-silver-mountain-id/

A video from YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHb_q5VXAw8

More info: https://www.onlyinyourstate.com/idaho/silver-mountain-gondola-kellogg-id/

Von Roll apparently offered a discount/financial assistance because it was "so impressed" by Kellogg's efforts to pay for the lift using tax dollars.  https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yiEuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=B_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5423,1966777


----------



## jaytrem (Jul 20, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So last week we spent a week up in Northern Idaho at Lake Couer d'Alene.  While folks may only know about Sun Valley in Idaho and MAYBE Schweitzer, there are MANY other medium-sized places and even larger places that are out there for skiing and riding.  Look up Bogus Basin, Pebble Creek, Tamarack, and Pomerelle to name a few.  One that will pop up in your search is an interesting one that is relevant to this thread and that is Silver Mountain located in Kellogg, Idaho literally RIGHT OFF Interstate 90.



I've been to all those places.  They all suck.  Everybody should stick with Utah.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So last week we spent a week up in Northern Idaho at Lake Couer d'Alene.  While folks may only know about Sun Valley in Idaho and MAYBE Schweitzer, there are MANY other medium-sized places and even larger places that are out there for skiing and riding.  Look up Bogus Basin, Pebble Creek, Tamarack, and Pomerelle to name a few.  One that will pop up in your search is an interesting one that is relevant to this thread and that is Silver Mountain located in Kellogg, Idaho literally RIGHT OFF Interstate 90.
> 
> Like Park City, Kellogg is an old mining town that found itself in major need of reinvention when the mining ended.  There was a small ski area located high up off the valley floor that started in 1967 and was named the Jackass Ski Bowl.  Like Park City, the ski area sat on land owned by a mining company.
> 
> ...



Interesting place and history. Words you never want to hear getting off the gondola at the top "I left my gloves in the car!!!". I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the shop in the top lodge does a pretty good business selling gloves and googles.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 21, 2020)

machski said:


> Build Avi barriers?!  There is your answer why no right there.  The purists would go mad if you engineer up the terrain more than what is already done in the Canyon.  That is why a Gondola would fit better, minimal land disturbance.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I am not talking up on the hill to prevent.  I am talking about at the tracks.  They use them all the time in Europe.  They make a small shelter over the tracks so the snow passes over.   Your Gondi would be out on wind days.  Even days with no snow.  The wind can whip up that canyon on clear days as well as storm days.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 21, 2020)

This idea would also get people out of the valley on inter-lodge days.  How many times have you been stranded up there and missed a flight?  I has happened to me twice.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> This idea would also get people out of the valley on inter-lodge days.  How many times have you been stranded up there and missed a flight?  I has happened to me twice.



If that's your main concern, a tunnel a 1 mile or so long tunnel connecting LCC & BCC would be the ideal thing.  But I imagine that's many millions of dollars = aint happening.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I am not talking up on the hill to prevent.  I am talking about at the tracks.  They use them all the time in Europe.  They make a small shelter over the tracks so the snow passes over.   Your Gondi would be out on wind days.  Even days with no snow.  The wind can whip up that canyon on clear days as well as storm days.



Wind would be a non-issue.  The 3S gondola proposed has 3 cables for a ton of stability.  

Quick wiki search landed me on the Whistler Blackomb Peak-to-Peak 3s gondola...



> The Peak 2 Peak Gondola has a number of unique safety systems beyond what a normal ski lift features. The gondola has high wind stability and is designed to operate in winds up to 80 km/h. Whistler-Blackcomb has called the Peak 2 Peak Gondola the most wind tolerant lift on Whistler Blackcomb. Testing at other Doppelmayr 3S installations have measured sustained winds at 120 km/h (75 mph) with no decrease in performance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Wind would be a non-issue.  The 3S gondola proposed has 3 cables for a ton of stability.
> 
> Quick wiki search landed me on the Whistler Blackomb Peak-to-Peak 3s gondola...



Right.  A 3S is not your average gondola and is built to handle higher wind gusts.


----------



## FBGM (Jul 22, 2020)

jimk said:


> Hey don't mess with that beautiful golf course
> View attachment 26982
> 
> There is a giant gravel pit and eyesore that is even closer to the mouth of BCC.  Build your transit village there.  It's to the right in this photo.  Old Mill GC is beyond it out of sight on the other side of Wasatch BLVD.
> View attachment 26984




That gravel pit is not going anywhere. Where do you think all the material is coming from to do whatever this gondola road tunnel idea happens. That pit for Morgan and Granite is worth more then you could imagine and still had lots of life left in it. 

Old Mill used to be the same type of pit. Now reclaimed into golf course. They should just keep the back 9 and make the front 9 parking cuz that’s all that front 9 is good for.


----------



## jimk (Jan 19, 2021)

New governor of Utah is interested in a gondola for Little Cottonwood Canyon and has earmarked $50 million for dealing with transportation issues in the canyons:  https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/1...canyon-little-cottonwood-canyon-alta-snowbird

Article excerpt:  So far, the work to improve the path to Snowbird and Alta’s world-class skiing in Little Cottonwood Canyon and overall access to the Wasatch mountains is focused on the following alternatives, many with big price tags.


Enhanced bus service with no road widening (with 24 buses at six buses per hour to each resort) would cost $334 million to put into place and $10.3 million in annual winter operation costs, according to according to UDOT’s environmental impact study. Widening the road as well would bring the upfront costs to $481 million.
A 30-gondola base station at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon with bus service from two hubs would cost an estimated $576 million plus about $8.3 million to operate, UDOT estimated. A gondola with a base station built east of the La Caille restaurant at 9565 S. Wasatch Blvd, which would also have 30 cars, would cost an estimated $576 million to build and $6.9 million to operate.
A cog rail with four train cars — with a station also based near the La Caille restaurant — would cost an estimated $1.05 billion and $6.3 million to operate, according to UDOT estimates.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 20, 2021)

there is no doubt from what I have read, I unfortunately have never been to Utah, something needs to be done.  I've said it in the past, that the 1 Wasatch thing was an incredibly novel idea and would provide "European" style connection.  I get that these things are incredibly expensive and many probably deem them government boondoggles, but having massive traffic jams seems pretty terrible for locals and visitors a like.   if you have to, add some sort of "use fee" to pin some of the burden on visitors.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

Or they will wait for a real nasty life taking accident..then do something. I've been traveling up that road for 20 years ( not as much anymore though), and it can be downright scary.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Or they will wait for a real nasty life taking accident..then do something. I've been traveling up that road for 20 years ( not as much anymore though), and it can be downright scary.


There have already been some deaths due to a number of reasons.  Population growth and IKON has led to major traffic issues.  It snowed 4 inches on Monday and it took me 90 minutes to go six miles down the road--mainly because of a couple cars that lacked snow tires and either went off the road or inched down the road holding up traffic.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

Almost every time I was there during a storm the road avalanched..once took out a bus. Took me 6 hours to finally get out of there once..rode in the back of a pickup to the bottom to get a bus back. Fun. But what a ski day. They are supposed to check for snow tires but I havent seen much of that. Rental cars and SUV's are the worst. 2 wheel drive SUV's with all season tires..yup that works.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 21, 2021)

There sure have been a few arrogant posts in this thread. That one guy is exceptionally annoying. I feel bad for that poster and his poor self esteem. I’ll leave it at that.

I’m a fan of ONE and creating as many alternatives and options as possible. The crowds aren’t going away and it’s only going to get worse so the people that are scared of change are gonna have to toughen up a bit.

The anti one crowd cracks me up. This sort of connection between different operations is standard in Europe and has been working longer than a lot of us have been alive. And no, you don’t have to traverse and ride lifts all day to get somewhere to lap a lift for 3 hours of quality skiing. I’m gonna be blunt here, you sound really dumb and lack imagination. The options would be endless and besides, traverses and tours have been a part of skiing culture since the birth of alpinism. A lot of people love that. Get a grip, the only “Jerry” on this site is the one posting arrogant posts calling people Jerry’s.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

Change is hard for some..they want everything to be the same. Since i don't live there I can't really chime in as I only go there twice a year. But...interconnecting areas would be very cool. Its one of the great things about Europe. Endless possibilities. The insane crowds and traffic jams have to be addressed at some time. Now would be good. Hell, they build a new airport to handle all this..Where do they think a lot of these people end up..skiing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Hell, they build a new airport to handle all this..Where do they think a lot of these people end up..skiing.



Exactly  It has to be looked at as a "transportation solution" not a "ski lift"


----------



## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

With so many people moving there, the new will outweigh the old soon enough. The place has changed dramatically since I started going there. It BOOMED. 
Strip malls everywhere..actual traffic. I'll admit that I liked it back then better. It was an escape from NY for me. My friends who live there feel the same. One just sold everything and moved into a motorhome to travel all over.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> With so many people moving there, the new will outweigh the old soon enough. The place has changed dramatically since I started going there. It BOOMED.
> Strip malls everywhere..actual traffic. I'll admit that I liked it back then better. It was an escape from NY for me. My friends who live there feel the same. One just sold everything and moved into a motorhome to travel all over.


Agreed.  We've been here almost ten years.  The changes in the last 3-4 years have been insane.  There is a lot of growth...and not much planning.  Apparently planning is an act of Satan for some folks.  Add IKON to the mix and it is really bad.  

We are actually supposed to get snow tonight and tomorrow.  I am not planning on skiing at those times because the traffic will be ridiculous.


----------



## jimk (Jan 22, 2021)

TrailBoss, you've probably posted this elsewhere on the site, but how are the lift lines at Alta and Snowbird this season?  Have you been happy with how they are dealing with crowds under Covid rules?  Any problems getting parking reservations for Snowbird?  I'm hoping to make my seasonal migration out there in a couple weeks.  Bring on that snow!


----------



## JimG. (Jan 22, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> We are actually supposed to get snow tonight and tomorrow.  I am not planning on skiing at those times because the traffic will be ridiculous.


This statement is truly sad.

While I may sometimes envy the conditions in Utah, I don't envy the locals who have to deal with this. I could not imagine writing off a day of skiing in fresh snow because of crowds.

Hard to believe but I feel a bit sorry for you TB.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Jan 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Rental cars and SUV's are the worst. 2 wheel drive SUV's with all season tires..yup that works.


I don't think any of the rental car places even offer the option of getting something effective snow tires - the best you can get is M+S which may (or may not) meet the minimum legal requirements but are definitely not good enough. I don't understand why in areas with traction laws rental car companies are allowed to rent cars in winter without at least offering renters the option of getting tires that meet the traction requirements/needs of the area.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

Found that out the hard way at A Basin..friend had an SUV that we ended up pushing up the hill out of the lot..with 5 other people. 
As far as not skiing. I would go to PC/Canyons if they are getting snow. At least everything is spread out and no crazy road to get up. Its been working for us for a few years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2021)

bizarrefaith said:


> I don't think any of the rental car places even offer the option of getting something effective snow tires - the best you can get is M+S which may (or may not) meet the minimum legal requirements but are definitely not good enough. I don't understand why in areas with traction laws rental car companies are allowed to rent cars in winter without at least offering renters the option of getting tires that meet the traction requirements/needs of the area.


People either don't know that or don't care.  As someone said, enforcement is spotty at best.  If someone goes off the road then they get a ticket.  I would think (and hope) that the airport rental agencies would have something for the conditions because a fair number of folks fly here in a normal year to ski in the Canyons.  The road to Park City can be interesting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> TrailBoss, you've probably posted this elsewhere on the site, but how are the lift lines at Alta and Snowbird this season?  Have you been happy with how they are dealing with crowds under Covid rules?  Any problems getting parking reservations for Snowbird?  I'm hoping to make my seasonal migration out there in a couple weeks.  Bring on that snow!


Alta has been busy.  Lines are longer because of spacing and because the terrain has been limited.  So folks are taking quicker runs.

Snowbird has been a disaster in terms of parking.  Like Solitude, they announced the parking system AFTER folks bought passes.  I talked to one passholder who said he made reservations using his name, his wife's name, and his dog's name.   Others did the same. As a result, one can't get parking on weekend or holiday periods and could not since November 30th.  They did not sell paid parking spots this season.  A lot of passholders turned in their passes in December to get a credit for next season.  Crowds have been not bad as a result at Snowbird, but having no lines at all at Gadzoom on MLK Day is not good at all for business I would imagine.  This season would have been break-even at best with COVID.  Without snow and with this stupid parking system, John Cumming has made sure that he goes down in flames this season.  Honestly, if passholders had a way to guarantee parking (or get preference) then I think most would deal with it.  But Cumming can't be a pig and has to be a hog by trying to get $$$ from passholders AND IKON.   I feel bad for the employees who have to deal with angry passholders. 

As for me:  my pass included an IKON base pass.  I've done 20 days this season--9 at Brighton (night pass), 1 at Deer Valley (IKON), 3 at Discovery, and the rest (7) at Alta and Snowbird.  Usually by now I would be at about 5-10 days at Snowbird alone.  I think I've done 4 days at Snowbird.  That said, I DO have parking at Snowbird for the next four or five Sundays and I've found that one can get parking the day-of or the night before.

Honestly, IKON should not be in LCC.  We have too much demand without it.  But as I said, they want to be hogs.  While pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered as they say.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2021)

JimG. said:


> This statement is truly sad.
> 
> While I may sometimes envy the conditions in Utah, I don't envy the locals who have to deal with this. I could not imagine writing off a day of skiing in fresh snow because of crowds.
> 
> Hard to believe but I feel a bit sorry for you TB.


I do get my days here and there.  Between a crazy work week and what I imagine will be crazy traffic, I am too tired and unmotivated to go tonight.  As I said in another post, it took me 90 minutes Monday night to drive from Snowbird to the mouth of the Canyon, or six miles.  We got four, yes (4), inches of snow and it brought traffic to a standstill largely because folks did not have snowtires and slid off the road or creeped down holding up the traffic heading home.  

A lot of old timers are really angry and have taken to the backcountry, which is also getting busy.  I just have reset my expectations.  

Here is a post about Monday night's disaster:  https://wasatchweatherweenies.blogspot.com/2021/01/yesterdays-snowmaggedon.html


----------



## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

3 inches..thats sad. One time that wouldn't get people out of bed. Used to have a dream of moving to Utah..that ship has sailed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 3 inches..thats sad. One time that wouldn't get people out of bed. Used to have a dream of moving to Utah..that ship has sailed.


You should have seen the traffic for Solitude when it opened and they got 3 inches of new snow.  The cars were backed up from the mouth of BCC ONTO Interstate 215.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 22, 2021)

"I moved to year 2000 UTAH and can't believe people kept moving here"


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2021)

So we got 16-19" of new snow overnight.  Alta's parking lot filled up at 8:12am.  The lifts don't start until 9:15am.


----------



## jimk (Jan 23, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So we got 16-19" of new snow overnight.  Alta's parking lot filled up at 8:12am.  The lifts don't start until 9:15am.


I guess big snow on a Saturday morning will generate crowds just about everywhere.  Do you suppose Sol/Bright is just as busy today?  On a day like this I found Park City to actually be a decent crowd avoidance strategy going on some of their higher/steeper terrain.  

With IKON basic, you need the big dumps to happen on blacked out holidays for less crowded powder experiences.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2021)

jimk said:


> I guess big snow on a Saturday morning will generate crowds just about everywhere.  Do you suppose Sol/Bright is just as busy today?  On a day like this I found Park City to actually be a decent crowd avoidance strategy going on some of their higher/steeper terrain.
> 
> With IKON basic, you need the big dumps to happen on blacked out holidays for less crowded powder experiences.


Solitude/Brighton is worse I imagine.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 23, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I do get my days here and there.  Between a crazy work week and what I imagine will be crazy traffic, I am too tired and unmotivated to go tonight.  As I said in another post, it took me 90 minutes Monday night to drive from Snowbird to the mouth of the Canyon, or six miles.  We got four, yes (4), inches of snow and it brought traffic to a standstill largely because folks did not have snowtires and slid off the road or creeped down holding up the traffic heading home.
> 
> A lot of old timers are really angry and have taken to the backcountry, which is also getting busy.  I just have reset my expectations.
> 
> Here is a post about Monday night's disaster:  https://wasatchweatherweenies.blogspot.com/2021/01/yesterdays-snowmaggedon.html


Jeez. How do employees deal with that?

I’m not skiing today because of crowds. We just got 11 inches but I still can’t get motivated to ski with thousands of Phoenixans on limited terrain. I’m waiting for Monday.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 23, 2021)

Ive come to the point ide rather be at a small local mountain thats somewhat empty and ski 3 inches of new..rather than deal with a monster shitshow...
Had a great time at Gore today..skied some new pow...no lines...


----------



## FBGM (Jan 23, 2021)

Every picture I saw of Wasatch resorts today was mental. No way I’d ever put up with that. Traffic was just as bad as the lift lines. 45min lines at Collins lift. Get fucked.

 I went for a tour. Waste deep. Saw 3 people. Thank you, bye.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 23, 2021)

Its a shame..BC might end up as my go to west trip.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 23, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Its a shame..BC might end up as my go to west trip.


Nothing better than interior BC!!!


----------



## kingslug (Jan 24, 2021)

Revelstoke was awesome..


----------



## snoseek (Jan 24, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Jeez. How do employees deal with that?
> 
> I’m not skiing today because of crowds. We just got 11 inches but I still can’t get motivated to ski with thousands of Phoenixans on limited terrain. I’m waiting for Monday.


I worked up there 3 till 1030ish. My roomates worked days till 330 or 4. On multiple days we arrived home within 2 hours of each other.


----------



## jimk (Jan 26, 2021)

jimk said:


> I guess big snow on a Saturday morning will generate crowds just about everywhere.  Do you suppose Sol/Bright is just as busy today?  On a day like this I found Park City to actually be a decent crowd avoidance strategy going on some of their higher/steeper terrain.
> 
> With IKON basic, you need the big dumps to happen on blacked out holidays for less crowded powder experiences.





thetrailboss said:


> Solitude/Brighton is worse I imagine.


Did you hear about this?   The BCC access road was closed for about 5 hours on Sunday afternoon, 1/24/21.  Dash cam video shows the moment two cars crashed and went into the river near the S-curve in Big Cottonwood Canyon.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1333846543643182
			




A ski patroller friend of mine posted this on another site about additional traffic congestion this winter in BCC:  "The canyon was also closed on Saturday (1/23) for a few hours due to "extreme congestion", the fifth day that's happened thus far this season. A couple feet of snow seemingly brought out every Ikon Pass holder along the Wasatch Front. Lift lines were horrifying. According to UDOT, this season there have been numerous days when the number of vehicles in BCC has exceeded the number of vehicles in LCC by more than a thousand."

More on the big 1/24/21 snarl:  https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...ing-peak-travel-time-to-remove-crash-vehicles


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2021)

jimk said:


> Did you here about this?   The BCC access road was closed for about 5 hours on Sunday afternoon, 1/24/21.  Dash cam video shows the moment two cars crashed and went into the river near the S-curve in Big Cottonwood Canyon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was talking with someone about the accident in the 2020-2021 Ski Season Thread.  

No surprise at all about traffic issues in BCC.  It mysteriously started the same season that Alterra bought Solitude.  IKON't figure out what changed.  Can you?


----------



## kingslug (Jan 26, 2021)

Obviously accelerating hard..black smoke pouring out the exhaust..diesel on full churn..then he loses it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Obviously accelerating hard..black smoke pouring out the exhaust..diesel on full churn..then he loses it.


Folks posted that the truck was pulled over earlier in the day and probably did not have snow tires.  It looks like he slid on ice.  A good example of how one person's decision to drive up the canyons without snow tires results in serious injuries and hours of back-ups impacting thousands of people.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 26, 2021)

Years ago my friend drove me back to SLC airport in a small snowstorm. I counted about 20 accidents..Most were pickups that slid into the median. 
Amazing how people got around in the old days with 2wd...they had snowtires.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2021)

you still need snow tires or something a little more aggressive with all wheel and 4 wheel drive.  I learned this the hard way when I couldn't back my subaru forester out of my spot at Stowe last February after a surprise 20"    I eventually was able to push car out with wife driving.  the drive back to Burlington took 2 hours.  I immediately bought snow tires on wheels and will not go north without that equipment ever again.  I am a skilled driver in the snow having spend the first 23 years of my life in western PA.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Jan 26, 2021)

A lot of people don't get that AWD/4WD without snow tires is inferior to 2WD with good snow tires. How many wheels are getting power doesn't matter if the tires can't hold the road.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Folks posted that the truck was pulled over earlier in the day and probably did not have snow tires.  It looks like he slid on ice.  A good example of how one person's decision to drive up the canyons without snow tires results in serious injuries and hours of back-ups impacting thousands of people.


All it takes is one asshole.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 26, 2021)

bizarrefaith said:


> A lot of people don't get that AWD/4WD without snow tires is inferior to 2WD with good snow tires. How many wheels are getting power doesn't matter if the tires can't hold the road.



Yep.  I am learning that this year (expected it).  I got an AWD Rav4 with new all-seasons (m/s rating at least).  I'm not getting a set of snow tires on it til I move west in the fall.  Before I had a 2wd sedan with the best snow tires you could get.  I felt much better in that than with my current setup.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 26, 2021)

I can attest to the fact that the rental companies at the airport don't have cars with snow tires and don't provide chains.  They do have cars with M&S tires.  But they are inferior.  Had this issue both in Tahoe and in SLC.

About 5 years ago I read an article about snow tires in outside magazine.  Bought them right then and there.  It's like night and day.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 26, 2021)

I put them on my truck and the subie in November. 3 years ago a snowstorm hit here and caused major havoc..Hundreds of accidents..I watched people sliding down the hills and roads by me..as I trundled past them. My wife also got home no prob..in 2 hours..but got home. I can change both cars out in an hour flat now with my lift. 
Blizaks..great tires.


----------



## x10003q (Jan 27, 2021)

Pickups with no/minimal weight in the bed can be unstable in the back under hard braking. The bed swings side to side around the heavily weighted front. This clown was tailgating and probably tapped the brakes and lost the rear. What a menace.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 28, 2021)

As I mentioned upthread, putting snow tires on my SUV has made a world of difference and I'm grateful.  That said, I've looked around to no avail for a local winter driving class figuring it would certainly be beneficial and maybe even fun.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> As I mentioned upthread, putting snow tires on my SUV has made a world of difference and I'm grateful.  That said, I've looked around to no avail for a local winter driving class figuring it would certainly be beneficial and maybe even fun.



Lots of good stuff on Youtube...check that out.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 28, 2021)

These driving courses are expensive. Ive watched them out west. BMW had one. You get to slide around a lot in one of their cars. 
I learned by driving in the worst snowstorms to get to the mountain. I just slow the hell down and let the idiots pass me. Knowing the limitations of your car is key..if its leaning way over in a turn..your going for a ride soon. I see it everyday on my commute to NYC...Pickups going 80 in a turn..you can see they aren't far from losing it in the rain and sleet. And some do. Only time I ever spun out was on black ice on a bridge near Boston. I had passed several upside down tractor trailers on the side of the road..one large flatbed carrying either bricks or roofing material jackknifed and it all went through the cab..i imagine he didn't survive as there was nothing left of the cab..few minutes later i spun, hit the median, little damage but it was a bit scary. That was 23 years ago..good so far. slow and steady in the storms.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Jan 28, 2021)

I wonder how many cars get crushed or damaged by falling rocks. Going up LCC there are some huge boulders that look like they just missed some homes, no freaken way would I live there.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 28, 2021)

You used to have to worry about...Aerial bombardment...


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 28, 2021)

You should see the Phoenix people driving that come up here to ski or play in the snow. It’s terrifying.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 28, 2021)




----------



## bizarrefaith (Jan 28, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> As I mentioned upthread, putting snow tires on my SUV has made a world of difference and I'm grateful.  That said, I've looked around to no avail for a local winter driving class figuring it would certainly be beneficial and maybe even fun.



Not sure where you're at since this is a thread about Utah on a Northeast board but Team O'Neil rally school in NH has winter driving classes, I think they're about $500.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 28, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> You should see the Phoenix people driving that come up here to ski or play in the snow. It’s terrifying.


That is really a scary thought.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> That is really a scary thought.







__





						Instagram
					






					instagram.com
				




snowbowl_jerrys on Instagram is worth a few minutes of your life. This place turns into a complete shit show during snowy weekends and holidays.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 29, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yep.  I am learning that this year (expected it).  I got an AWD Rav4 with new all-seasons (m/s rating at least).  I'm not getting a set of snow tires on it til I move west in the fall.  Before I had a 2wd sedan with the best snow tires you could get.  I felt much better in that than with my current setup.


While in Colorado we always had AWD/4WD vehicles and ran with all season tires.  Living in Colorado Springs where there is limited days with snow getting snow tires did not make sense.  We were able to drive over 11-12,000 feet passes with out issue with all season tires.  If it would be an issue they typically close roads there.  If you live in the mountains when you move west I can see the interest in winter tires.


----------



## jimk (Jan 29, 2021)

I live in VA and snows just don't make sense here unless you're driving into the mtns all the time.  I've done quite a few cross country ski roadtrips, some with 4wd, some without, but none with snow tires.  We're talking 4500-7000 mile winter trips.  Mostly I've been fine, but there was a snowy evening in 2019 crossing over 11,300' Monarch Pass, CO when I slide for about 75 scary yards but it ended ok.  Also, long ago (1970s) slide sideways about same distance down the access road at Blue Knob, PA.  It's an upside down ski area and this was near the 3000' summit. No harm done again.
But snow tires can be great in the proper situation, especially paired with 4wd.  My son lives 20 mins from Snowbird and skis several days per week.  He runs a Subaru with snow tires in the winter up LCC and BCC.  When I'm out there with him and it snows we take his vehicle
PS:  correction, there was a roadtrip my son and I took in January 2011 from VA to UT.  We drove out there with his 1992 Accord.  We took his old car because he was going to school and skiing in western PA at the time and had put snow tires on it.
Took that car up to Maine too, guess where:


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 29, 2021)

bizarrefaith said:


> Not sure where you're at since this is a thread about Utah on a Northeast board but Team O'Neil rally school in NH has winter driving classes, I think they're about $500.


I'm in NJ, but I appreciate the info.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 30, 2021)

For a thousand bucks..wheels and tires..its good insurance..takes me under an hour to swap each car...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 31, 2021)

kingslug said:


> For a thousand bucks..wheels and tires..its good insurance..takes me under an hour to swap each car...


Exactly ~ 30 minutes to do mine.  No brainer


----------



## skinowworklater (Jan 31, 2021)

jimk said:


> I live in VA and snows just don't make sense here unless you're driving into the mtns all the time.  I've done quite a few cross country ski roadtrips, some with 4wd, some without, but none with snow tires.  We're talking 4500-7000 mile winter trips.  Mostly I've been fine, but there was a snowy evening in 2019 crossing over 11,300' Monarch Pass, CO when I slide for about 75 scary yards but it ended ok.  Also, long ago (1970s) slide sideways about same distance down the access road at Blue Knob, PA.  It's an upside down ski area and this was near the 3000' summit. No harm done again.
> But snow tires can be great in the proper situation, especially paired with 4wd.  My son lives 20 mins from Snowbird and skis several days per week.  He runs a Subaru with snow tires in the winter up LCC and BCC.  When I'm out there with him and it snows we take his vehicle
> PS:  correction, there was a roadtrip my son and I took in January 2011 from VA to UT.  We drove out there with his 1992 Accord.  We took his old car because he was going to school and skiing in western PA at the time and had put snow tires on it.
> Took that car up to Maine too, guess where:


Mount Abrams?


----------



## jimk (Jan 31, 2021)

skinowworklater said:


> Mount Abrams?


Correct!  Good mountain.  I can only wonder what millennials think of the anachronistic Rocky and Bullwinkle theme to the trails names, OK Boomer!

Here's another scary account from a friend on recent Utah ski traffic from Saturday, Jan 30, 2021:
Solitude's car parks were completely full by 8:45 a.m. Brighton likely was similar. Many, many hundreds of cars then proceeded to road park, a significant number of them illegally (virtually no enforcement thus far this season) and numerous others to their own detriment (owners ended up returning to a vehicle that during the day had sunk into deep soft snow and was stuck). The canyon (BCC) closed for the 6th time this season due to "extreme congestion" for over 3 hours. During the closure period, UPD/UDOT turned around over 1,600 additional vehicles. The red snake was a fitting conclusion to the day.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2021)

Do the people who live in the homes across the street from Solitude & Brighton get a pass when they close the canyon; I imagine so, right?


----------



## FBGM (Jan 31, 2021)

And if you were not fighting for parking and resort skiing yesterday in Utah you were in the BC causing avalanches and dying.

12 years here, don’t know if I ever remember so many reported slides, accidents and somehow only 1 death.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 31, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Exactly ~ 30 minutes to do mine.  No brainer


Slowpokes, it only take me 4 Minutes per tire!






Actually need to get some for my new 4runner, the rims from the last one are too small.  Snow tires needed to be replaced anyway.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> And if you were not fighting for parking and resort skiing yesterday in Utah you were in the BC causing avalanches and dying.
> 
> 12 years here, don’t know if I ever remember so many reported slides, accidents and somehow only 1 death.


Two deaths this season to date....so far

The lines last night at NIGHT riding at Brighton were 20-30 minutes for Crest Express.  All those IKON folks who wanted to use their Brighton days.  They don’t require a reservation for nights.  And there were some assclowns there last night.  Whether it was the bro who wanted “more space” in the lift line so he could crush a can of beer without a mask or the guy who yelled at me for riding single there were some d-bags out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2021)

Traffic problems continue in Cottonwood Canyons
					

With parts of the Wasatch Mountains receiving another foot of snow overnight, long lines and traffic jams plagued the Cottonwood Canyons on Saturday.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## FBGM (Jan 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Two deaths this season to date....so far
> 
> The lines last night at NIGHT riding at Brighton were 20-30 minutes for Crest Express.  All those IKON folks who wanted to use their Brighton days.  They don’t require a reservation for nights.  And there were some assclowns there last night.  Whether it was the bro who wanted “more space” in the lift line so he could crush a can of beer without a mask or the guy who yelled at me for riding single there were some d-bags out.


I was just talking stats about yesterday.

BC dentist dads and Instagram bros are oddly not the ones dying or trying to die.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

And how did I get to work when everyone else could not..snowtires...yeah I'm sure I'll get a trophy for it...


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2021)

Wow.  This is so full of BS I don’t know where to start.









						The Alta Parking Issue
					

As the Salt Lake Valley population continues to grow, parking is becoming more and more of a premium at Alta and in the Town of Alta.




					www.alta.com


----------



## ss20 (Mar 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  This is so full of BS I don’t know where to start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why do you feel that way (no snark...honest question)?  Seems reasonable to me, and certainly beats paying $20 to park like at Solitude.  The Alta ski area lots are private land owned/leased by the ski area, correct?


----------



## ss20 (Mar 6, 2021)

What I find interesting is that today, on a Saturday, Alta had parking still available according to the Twitter.  Dry week according to the snow report, but still impressive given how well the mountain must be skiing, I'd ASSume.


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 6, 2021)

"A mountain ops day is never done .  #mountainops #weloveourgroomers #weloveoursnowmakers #keepingitreal #myplatty"""
From best hill in Catskills pounding snow out tinguft from their Facebook page


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Why do you feel that way (no snark...honest question)?  Seems reasonable to me, and certainly beats paying $20 to park like at Solitude.  The Alta ski area lots are private land owned/leased by the ski area, correct?


Because their plight is not due to BC folks or non skiers.  It’s due to IKON.  And picking a fight with the neighbors and town is really stupid.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Because their plight is not due to BC folks or non skiers.  It’s due to IKON.  And picking a fight with the neighbors and town is really stupid.


So are you saying the supposedly 200 spots used by non-Alta skiers is not an accurate number? Or are you saying those people parking in Alta's lots is irrelevant as the number of non-Alta skiers using the lots really hasn't changed much over the years?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> So are you saying the supposedly 200 spots used by non-Alta skiers is not an accurate number? Or are you saying those people parking in Alta's lots is irrelevant as the number of non-Alta skiers using the lots really hasn't changed much over the years?


I am not buying that they are losing money from BC skiers, townsfolk, and homeowners to a significant degree.  It's ironic that the once self-proclaimed "locals" mountain has now declared war on the Town and their neighbors.  The reason they run short of parking so early now is because of IKON and population growth.  Add in Snowbird's parking reservation system and it is bad.  The reason for any revenue shortfalls is due to people not buying day tickets and using their IKON passes.  I imagine their skier days are up but revenue is flat if not lower.  

I have no issue with them asking folks to show passes/tickets before parking.  It does not impact me.  

Once again Alta/Bird could have revisited the IKON program and either required reservations or put restrictions on the passes (as they have done at Aspen, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Brighton, and now Crystal) but that honey is too sweet I guess.   So apparently if you own a home there, want to park in town to patronize a restaurant, or want to earn some turns then you are taking money out of Alta's pocket.  How dare you!


----------



## cdskier (Mar 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I am not buying that they are losing money from BC skiers, townsfolk, and homeowners to a significant degree.  It's ironic that the once self-proclaimed "locals" mountain has now declared war on the Town and their neighbors.  The reason they run short of parking so early now is because of IKON and population growth.  Add in Snowbird's parking reservation system and it is bad.  The reason for any revenue shortfalls is due to people not buying day tickets and using their IKON passes.  I imagine their skier days are up but revenue is flat if not lower.
> 
> I have no issue with them asking folks to show passes/tickets before parking.  It does not impact me.
> 
> Once again Alta/Bird could have revisited the IKON program and either required reservations or put restrictions on the passes (as they have done at Aspen, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Brighton, and now Crystal) but that honey is too sweet I guess.   So apparently if you own a home there, want to park in town to patronize a restaurant, or want to earn some turns then you are taking money out of Alta's pocket.  How dare you!



To be fair, it remains to be seen whether any of the Ikon reservation requirements at the resorts you mention will exist post-COVID. Some of those resorts even say things like "we're requiring reservations from Ikon passholder in case we end up needing to limit capacity." So some resorts are requiring reservations but not actually limiting them. They just wanted to have a system in place in case they needed to put limits in place. Easier to have a system and not truly need it instead of have a capacity issue and need to rush to implement something mid-season.

And you're right that Alta/Bird presumably could have revisited the Ikon partnership and negotiated something like Jackson did with being an add-on to the base Ikon pass. However doesn't the fact that they didn't kind of go against your argument that they have revenue shortfalls due to people using Ikon? Obviously the people with access to the numbers think there's a benefit (a financial benefit would be the logical assumption).

I'd also be a bit curious to know how much of their crowding issues are due to population growth vs Ikon. There's no denying population growth is something that is happening in your area. Is it 50/50 population growth/Ikon causing issues? Or is it 80/20? 20/80? I'd just like to have more actual facts before jumping on the "Ikon is the root of all evil" train.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> And you're right that Alta/Bird presumably could have revisited the Ikon partnership and negotiated something like Jackson did with being an add-on to the base Ikon pass. However doesn't the fact that they didn't kind of go against your argument that they have revenue shortfalls due to people using Ikon? Obviously the people with access to the numbers think there's a benefit (a financial benefit would be the logical assumption).


That's what is crazy about IKON and Alta/Snowbird.  If you look more closely you see that Alta and Snowbird actually split the revenue.  So it is less than if it was one resort.  The conventional wisdom is that people will come from out of town and stay at Snowbird, buy food, buy souvenirs, etc.  to make up any difference.  The reality is that many locals to Utah have abandoned a single resort pass and moved to IKON.  So they are not buying food, renting rooms, etc. 

Snowbird's owner wants to remain because all of POWDR's resorts are IKON.  So they get a bigger piece of the pie.  



cdskier said:


> I'd also be a bit curious to know how much of their crowding issues are due to population growth vs Ikon. There's no denying population growth is something that is happening in your area. Is it 50/50 population growth/Ikon causing issues? Or is it 80/20? 20/80? I'd just like to have more actual facts before jumping on the "Ikon is the root of all evil" train.


I think both play a significant role.  One only needs look at BCC and the difference before IKON and after.  Before there was almost NEVER a backup to get off Wasatch, Boulevard and up BCC.  Now it is literally every weekend day.  Solitude is the ONLY unlimited option on IKON.  

Of course we feel the impacts more here because (a) the canyons are hard to get up, (b) we have a lot of people here, (c) most of those people moved here to ski (me included in 2011), and (d) we have a tourism marketing machine that has pushed a lot of folks to visit.  The "Mighty Five" campaign was too successful.  So is IKON many of us would say.  Restricting it to reservation only or limit the days would help ease things.  Consider that Snowbird has (or had) 10,000 passholders alone.  Now add Alta and Ikon and there is a lot of traffic.


----------



## jimk (Mar 7, 2021)

Despite all the bad Utah traffic talk I've been able to ski 12 out of the last 17 days at Snowbird despite not having a single parking reservation before my first ski day out here on 19 Feb.  The days I did not ski were because I took off to do some home improvement work and rest.  Weekdays have been very easy to get last minute parking reservations.  Weekends have been a little tougher, but my son helps me by sharing a ride or reservation.  There was one day when I had to park on the access road (unreserved), but it was near the top of the Chickidee lift and easy to/from Peruvian lift.
I agree with trailboss, Ikon was absolutely a game changer and crowd maker out here.  There's been a population boom, there's been an increase in out of town visitors, but most of all the locals are skiing more often with their cheap Ikon passes.  One tell tale sign is that some of the quietest days of the season are on holiday blackout dates, when the locals don't ski because they have the ikon basic pass.
Lunch on bypass road today:


----------



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2021)

Going to hit  PC and Brighton..Guess I'll see how it is now. Haven't been since last year when we where at PC and it closed, thankfully on our last day. Maybe convince them to go to Snowbird or Alta as thats where i really like to go..but when your invited to a condo in the Canyons..you go.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2021)

And its looking rather dry in the forecasts...


----------



## jimk (Mar 8, 2021)

Actually, Tues-Thurs could result in 6-12 inches in the Wasatch.  Not a lot, but it helps.  The pattern right now is beautiful sunshine, but firm in AM, nicer in PM.  Not quite full spring skiing, which it's too early for anyway


----------



## FBGM (Mar 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Going to hit  PC and Brighton..Guess I'll see how it is now. Haven't been since last year when we where at PC and it closed, thankfully on our last day. Maybe convince them to go to Snowbird or Alta as thats where i really like to go..but when your invited to a condo in the Canyons..you go.


It’s tropical here. Bring your beach chair and fufu drink with umbrella and sun screen. March said FU, hello May


----------



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2021)

oh boy...but it could change..seen that before...we shall see.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2021)

This doesn't look too bad





						Weather, Park City | Park City Mountain Resort
					

Get the latest Snow and Weather Report from Park City.




					www.parkcitymountain.com


----------



## jimk (Mar 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It’s tropical here. Bring your beach chair and fufu drink with umbrella and sun screen. March said FU, hello May


I put in a full day at Snowbird yesterday 3/7/21.  It was early spring type conditions, lots of sun, but groomers stayed fairly firm as did much of the offpiste that was not full sun.  I guess it was about 40 degs on the slopes at 10,000'.  When driving back down into the valley at 5pm I see four guys drinking beer in their driveway.  Two had no shirts, all wearing shorts.  It was about 60 degs in suburbs, but felt like 75.  It;s like that a lot out here.


----------



## FBGM (Mar 8, 2021)

jimk said:


> I put in a full day at Snowbird yesterday 3/7/21.  It was early spring type conditions, lots of sun, but groomers stayed fairly firm as did much of the offpiste that was not full sun.  I guess it was about 40 degs on the slopes at 10,000'.  When driving back down into the valley at 5pm I see four guys drinking beer in their driveway.  Two had no shirts, all wearing shorts.  It was about 60 degs in suburbs, but felt like 75.  It;s like that a lot out here.


I was in a t shirt at my place in PC this weekend. Finally saw the asphalt on my driveway - first time in months

Skied DV Sunday. Conditions were spring. Firm high and N facing. Soft and slush low and S facing. 

Need a big end of March or April to get SWE totals up


----------



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2021)

PC got as much snow as Stowe this year..and that aint good...
Wonder if I should even bother bringing the fat skis..although they do bring me luck.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2021)

Bump.  

The finalists:

1.  Enhanced Bussing;
2.  Gondola.  

Feel free to comment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2021)

Even if Enhanced Bussing wins now, Gondola is going to eventually win.

May as well just do gondy now rather than doing the stereotypical, "build a 2 lane highway today, when you know you're eventually going to need a 4 lane highway."


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even if Enhanced Bussing wins now, Gondola is going to eventually win.
> 
> May as well just do gondy now rather than doing the stereotypical, "build a 2 lane highway today, when you know you're eventually going to need a 4 lane highway."


Utah LOVES highways.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Utah LOVES highways.



To be fair, the highways in Utah are pretty phenomenal.  Generally in great shape & sky high speed l limits.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> To be fair, the highways in Utah are pretty phenomenal.  Generally in great shape & sky high speed l limits.


That they are.  My point was that Utah's transportation is very highway focused.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 25, 2021)

Does enhanced bussing include enhanced parking?


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Does enhanced bussing include enhanced parking?


Down in the valley


----------



## snoseek (Jun 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Down in the valley


Those lots fill up ridiculously fast so they're gonna need to clear some space


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Those lots fill up ridiculously fast so they're gonna need to clear some space



More parking is in the plan they released.

But it just seems to me the only people pining for the busses are likely the eco nuts & the people who dont want any sort of tax increase to pay for a gondy.   

Maybe I'd add to that the, "all the backcountry are mine" crowd too, because if that gondy goes in I have to imagine ONE Wasatch will be inevitable.  What's a few more short gondys when you've already build a massively long gondy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Those lots fill up ridiculously fast so they're gonna need to clear some space


Yep.  I’m also a bit skeptical of the gondola deal because one vocal backer bought a key property and stands to make money off the deal.  Of course Ski Utah featured the guy on a podcast and when he revealed his interest they just kept tossing him softball questions and sucking his dick.  The conflicts of interest here are just so disgusting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> More parking is in the plan they released.
> 
> But it just seems to me the only people pining for the busses are likely the eco nuts & the people who dont want any sort of tax increase to pay for a gondy.
> 
> Maybe I'd add to that the, "all the backcountry are mine" crowd too, because if that gondy goes in I have to imagine ONE Wasatch will be inevitable.  What's a few more short gondys when you've already build a massively long gondy.


Yeah Save the Canyons is against the gondola and using scare tactics.  They just seem to think that the only solution is closing down the ski areas.  It seems so outrageous.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah Save the Canyons is against the gondola and using scare tactics.



Save The Canyons is an extremist group masquerading as a group with genuinely good intentions & a benign name, which is often the MO of the most successful extremist groups.  Sadly.  If you ever learn of a group called, People for the Prevention of Kicking Puppies, it will surely be the most evil group on the planet.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 26, 2021)

I'd imagine parking reservations will help somewhat?  If it's a weekend powder day and they can only fit 1,000 cars up there, without reservations 1,100 cars are trying to get up.  Also if you know you have a spot ready for you rather than 1,000 cars waiting in line to get up the canyon I'd imagine there'd be a few who say "f that" and ski the 10am-close shift.  These are all ASSumptions...


----------



## kingslug (Jun 27, 2021)

Spent a week in Moab..crazy crowded..the parks are crowded..everything is crowded..I think at this point if you want to get away from it all..contact Elon Musk...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 27, 2021)

kingslug said:


> *Spent a week in Moab..crazy crowded..the parks are crowded..everything is crowded.*.I think at this point if you want to get away from it all..contact Elon Musk...



How bad are we talking?   There's normally lines to get into Arches in the peak morning times, we went more like 11am to avoid them even though it's hotter.  Or we'd go closer to dusk which is IMO the best time, it's beautiful & many people are either done for the day or are eating dinner.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 28, 2021)

They were working on the main road in town...as busy as a street in Queens. Parking at all the sites filled up quick..lines for all the bathrooms. But this is to be expected..people want out. The ATV tour we did was pretty crowded. I asked the guide if there was room for more businesses to open. Yup..they are turning people away they are so busy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> They were working on the main road in town...as busy as a street in Queens. Parking at all the sites filled up quick..lines for all the bathrooms. But this is to be expected..people want out. The ATV tour we did was pretty crowded. I asked the guide if there was room for more businesses to open. Yup..they are turning people away they are so busy.


A victim of their own success.  The State's marketing efforts have really driven people.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 28, 2021)

Its changed so much..houses all, over the place..mass traffic at all times..


----------



## jimk (Jun 29, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or we'd go closer to dusk which is IMO the best time, it's beautiful & many people are either done for the day or are eating dinner.


Dusk at Canyonlands National Park, May 27, 2021:


----------



## snoseek (Jun 29, 2021)

I'm a big fan of dead horse point state park instead of canyonlands.


----------



## jimk (Jun 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm a big fan of dead horse point state park instead of canyonlands.


Dead Horse Point is amazing especially where the road gets pinched to a super narrow pass with cliffs on both sides.  As a visitor to the state of Utah I find it interesting how the state grabbed a few gems for its state parks when you might think they'd have been incorporated into nearby National Parks.  As the crow flies DHP and Grand View Point in Canyonlands are probably only about 15 miles apart.
2019 visit to DHP:


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 29, 2021)

From snowbirds Facebook page:

""Two final options for transportation changes in Little Cottonwood Canyon are currently being considered by @UDOT - an expanded bus system and a gondola. You can now check out what riding the gondola would be like via a new video experience: https://gondolaworks.com/

Join Snowbird in encouraging UDOT to reduce our reliance on vehicles by voicing your support for the gondola option. Not only will it avoid more paving, emissions and drastic permanent changes in the canyon required by the expanded bus proposal, but the gondola will provide a more reliable long-term solution.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 29, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> From snowbirds Facebook page:
> 
> ""Two final options for transportation changes in Little Cottonwood Canyon are currently being considered by @UDOT - an expanded bus system and a gondola. You can now check out what riding the gondola would be like via a new video experience: https://gondolaworks.com/
> 
> Join Snowbird in encouraging UDOT to reduce our reliance on vehicles by voicing your support for the gondola option. Not only will it avoid more paving, emissions and drastic permanent changes in the canyon required by the expanded bus proposal, but the gondola will provide a more reliable long-term solution.


Nice video.  That garage would be so perfect on the last day of a ski trip where you're skiing in the morning and flying out in the afternoon.  You would have this sheltered spot at low altitude for your final clothes change and packing, way better than doing that at altitude in a snowstorm!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2021)

Canyonlands is amazing.  

And I am skeptical of the gondola proposal being a solution.  I think that folks will just continue to drive right on by.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 29, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Canyonlands is amazing.
> 
> And I am skeptical of the gondola proposal being a solution.  I think that folks will just continue to drive right on by.


Not if they charge a shit ton to park Up at the ski areas. Or put in a toll both at the bottom.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 30, 2021)




----------



## kingslug (Jun 30, 2021)

As far as bus or gondola. I say gondola. That road is just too freaky ...avalanches take out buses too.


----------



## jimk (Jun 30, 2021)

I guess the enhanced busing option would carry a lot more people up the hill than the best of gondolas, but the gondola has the advantage of being able to continue to operate when the road is closed due to avi mitigation work.  As we've seen for big storms in recent years the road can be closed 2 or 3 days.  In my comments to the state I said build both bus lanes and gondi.  That means I cancelled myself out 

@kingslug were you at Arches this year?  I tried to go there on May 28 and got turned away due to crowds.
Found a nice alternative same day, Window Rock at Colorado National Monument:

Same area:


----------



## tumbler (Jun 30, 2021)

I would highly doubt they would be running the gondola during avi mitigation work.  It is designed to be run and the towers probably placed in non slide zones, but they are not going to run it while shooting artillery.  No way.  Also how would they evac if there was a mechanical problem and the road is not passable?  Don't think the plow crews are going to be roping people down...


----------



## jimk (Jun 30, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I would highly doubt they would be running the gondola during avi mitigation work.  It is designed to be run and the towers probably placed in non slide zones, but they are not going to run it while shooting artillery.  No way.  Also how would they evac if there was a mechanical problem and the road is not passable?  Don't think the plow crews are going to be roping people down...


Interesting/valid comment.  One of the arguments for the gondi is it being able to get tourists and staff up/down the canyon during storms when the road is closed or very backed-up.  Evac of gondi is a whole other problem.  Maybe they have a dirt road/cat track under it and run ski patrolers on snowmobiles from the resort to the gondi cars?  That seems to be how it would be done at Banff Sunshine from my observations the one time I rode that similar kind of lift.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 30, 2021)

The road closures usually come from the cleanup. The bombing itself usually happens super early and can and would be planned ahead of times so I'm not sure how much it would interfere. On really big storm days the whole canyon is interlodged anyhow.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 30, 2021)

We did arches, canyonlands, fiery furnace, ATV rock scramble.I think this time of year is less crowded due to heat.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 30, 2021)

The gondi sure would beat being on a bus or car and get hit by an avalanche..which does happen.


----------



## x10003q (Jun 30, 2021)

Just have a fleet of helicopters on standby in case an evac is needed.


----------



## FBGM (Jul 1, 2021)

Late to the shit show here boys. Damn. Forgot about this one.

Doesn’t matter what people think or vote or want. It’s who’s pockets get padded or funded.

Real world tho…after approvals funding and bullshit law suits then construction, This is still like 3+ Years out or more.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 1, 2021)

At least...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 4, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> You can now check out what riding the gondola would be like via a new video experience: https://gondolaworks.com/



Whoa-ho-ho..... someone spared no expense on production of that baby.  They've come loaded for bear.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 4, 2021)

kingslug said:


> We did arches, canyonlands, fiery furnace, ATV rock scramble.I think this time of year is less crowded due to heat.



Only time I've been is August, 100+ degree temps, which I think kept people away, but it's so dry, and maybe from going to college in Florida, but it didnt bother me at all.  Just carry a lot of water.  We did Fisher's Tower on Saturday so we didnt have to be in a park on a crowded day.  F.T. was my favorite thing, it's just any amazingly expansive area & we had it basically to ourselves.  We might have seen 10 other hikers the entire day, my sense is it's not on tourist's radar.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 4, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Real world tho…after approvals funding and bullshit law suits then construction, *This is still like 3+ Years out or more.*


You're probably right, because it seems impossible to get anything done these days without facing lawsuits from  well-funded eco-extremists.  Frankly, I'd take the OVER if the line's set at 3 years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whoa-ho-ho..... someone spared no expense on production of that baby.  They've come loaded for bear.


The developer who stands to make $$$ is behind that “group” and its website.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> The developer who stands to make $$$ is behind that “group” and its website.


Who? Alta and Snowbird?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Who? Alta and Snowbird?


Nope. 

Chris McCandless






						Home | CW Management Corporation
					

Our company offers professional management services and quality rentals throughout West Jordan, UT, and the surrounding areas.




					www.cwmcorp.com
				




Listen to the podcast here when he admits that he bought a key piece of property that is needed for this project.  https://www.skiutah.com/blog/authors/tom-kelly/chris-mccandless-little

I highly doubt that he is going to donate the land to the State for this project.  



> *Chris McCandless:* |00:10:33 What happened with me was as they were looking at alternative solutions to the transportation problem, buses, trains, or a gondola. My first inclination early on was the train. As a city councilman, I wanted a train to go from Sandy to Alta. I thought that would be a great way to solve the problem. But as I worked in the train and the buses are actually great options, anything's better than nothing. *We have to do something. And so but as I looked at the gondola option and studied that, I was standing on the road at Highway 210 or in Little Cottonwood, and I saw this great big for sale sign, the second or third of last year. And the property that is just west of that road, north of Little Cottonwood Canyon, had been listed for sale by a local real estate agent. And I knew the owners. And that's one of those things where it just kind of comes together. The owners were old ski patrolmen from Park City, and we had a lot of fun together. So I actually called the owners and said. 'What do you guys think? I'd like to put this under contract. I've got some ideas.' At the same time, my business partner on a lot of different projects because I'm a real estate guy, had purchased Le Caille and had amassed about 24, 25 acres, and it had its own challenges. And for a couple of years, he's been asking us to come in and help him with that. And as a city councilman, I refused because I felt like there would be a conflict of interest. And January 2nd, Kevin calls me up and says, How about now you're no longer an elected official. I'm honored you and Wayne come over here and help me with this project. And that's the day I stopped and called Suzanne and said and Kevin, this is an opportunity to solve the problems in the king. And because if we don't have this property. I don't believe the canyon's problems will go away, we'll just kick the can down the road because they wanted to put the gondola, for example, at the mouth of the canyon instead of outside of the canyon. *Challenge with that is you've got to have a whole bunch of buses dropping people off. There's no place to drop them off. So now I visualized because I've been in construction and real estate for a long time, a freeway interchange there so the buses could turn around and head back out. Buses turn and left is a bad idea. And I visualized the size of the gondola itself at the mouth of the king and disrupting that incredible view of that glaciated aspect of the canyon.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Nope.
> 
> Chris McCandless
> 
> ...


Good for him. I'm sure he is going to make out pretty good if it ever gets built.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Good for him. I'm sure he is going to make out pretty good if it ever gets built.


And that bothers me for some reason.  I just feel it is a conflict of interest because he put himself into the position to profit off this.  And the effort to promote the gondola seems to help his business.  The original plan was to have the gondola start at the mouth of the Canyon and then all of the sudden he pushed them to change the location to his property.  Maybe I am just cynical about it.  At the very least it is opportunistic.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 6, 2021)

Maybe his property will be taken by eminent domain and he only gets the “fair market price”


----------



## machski (Jul 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe his property will be taken by eminent domain and he only gets the “fair market price”


Possibly.  He also took a risk if you think he did this from a profit perspective.  If they shift away from a Gondi and from using his property, all he has left is a nice piece into the mouth of the canyon.  Sounds like free market economy at work to me, he bought having zero guarantee this pans out for him.


----------



## p_levert (Jul 6, 2021)

Actually I trust the Utah folks to not be crazy corrupt.  If the McCandless property make the most sense, nothing wrong with choosing that option.  If McCandless makes a tidy profit, I am OK with that. This is a great project, I want to see it happen.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> And that bothers me for some reason.  I just feel it is a conflict of interest because he put himself into the position to profit off this.  And the effort to promote the gondola seems to help his business.  The original plan was to have the gondola start at the mouth of the Canyon and then all of the sudden he pushed them to change the location to his property.  Maybe I am just cynical about it.  At the very least it is opportunistic.


That’s kind of how these things work.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 6, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> That’s kind of how these things work.


And he apparently has real estate contacts, local contacts, and government contacts - he's in the catbird seat.


----------



## urungus (Jul 7, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Actually I trust the Utah folks to not be crazy corrupt.



Um, “Utah folks” ran the most corrupt Winter Olympics in history.  Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympic_bid_scandal

“Ten members of the IOC were expelled and another ten were sanctioned.  This was the first expulsion or sanction for corruption in the more than a century the IOC had existed”

and from https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1499&context=sportslaw

“The scandal that surrounds the IOC's choice of Salt Lake City to host the XIX Winter Olympic Games is what some consider the biggest ethics scandal in the history of the Olympic Movement.”


----------



## machski (Jul 8, 2021)

urungus said:


> Um, “Utah folks” ran the most corrupt Winter Olympics in history.  Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympic_bid_scandal
> 
> “Ten members of the IOC were expelled and another ten were sanctioned.  This was the first expulsion or sanction for corruption in the more than a century the IOC had existed”
> 
> ...


I do hope you also understand the IOC was very tepid with even considering Utah due to the Mormon influence and the alcohol laws back then.  European visitors would not have taken kindly to those almost prohibition laws so a lot of convincing was needed.  But yes, a lot of crap happened, the SLC games nearly fell apart before they happened due to all of that.


----------



## p_levert (Jul 8, 2021)

urungus said:


> Um, “Utah folks” ran the most corrupt Winter Olympics in history.  Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympic_bid_scandal
> 
> “Ten members of the IOC were expelled and another ten were sanctioned.  This was the first expulsion or sanction for corruption in the more than a century the IOC had existed”
> 
> ...


Hey, thank you for that.  Yes, there is corruption in Utah.  Gondola vs Olympics, there's lots of differences, but I agree we can't simply assume that Utah is clean.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 8, 2021)

Well at least you can buy good beer now...its a start.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 8, 2021)

machski said:


> I do hope you also understand the IOC was very tepid with even considering Utah due to the Mormon influence and the alcohol laws back then.  European visitors would not have taken kindly to those almost prohibition laws so a lot of convincing was needed.  But yes, a lot of crap happened, the SLC games nearly fell apart before they happened due to all of that.


Mitt Romney


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 8, 2021)

Utah will be the only state where marijuana is still illegal in 5 or so years.

such Nerds!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Utah will be the only state where marijuana is still illegal in 5 or so years.
> 
> such Nerds!


Until Mormon Jesus proclaims it to be OK.  That will occur after LDS, Inc. has staked out their investment positions.


----------



## abc (Jul 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> We did arches, canyonlands, fiery furnace, ATV rock scramble.I think this time of year is less crowded due to heat.


20 years ago, I skipped Canyonland, only did Arches, because I was short on time.

This time around, I did both. Still not too impressed with Canyonland. It's kind of nice. But with Arches right next door (actually shorter drive from town), it's just so much more photogenic.

Agree on Dead Horse Point. It's the least crowded and just as dramatic as Canyonland (maybe MORE dramatic!). Moreover, you can mountain bike in DHP, but can't in the national park.

I lucked out with the temperature. never exceed 85 when I was there, 3 days in the last week of June. Granted, I only pick those 3 days because the forecast was for the temperature to dip for those days. Wish I have more days though. So much hiking, mountain biking and kayaking to be done, in drop dead gorgeous settings!

Arches National Park:

(“Park Avenue”)


(“Tapestry Arch”)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 9, 2021)

abc said:


> 20 years ago, I skipped Canyonland, only did Arches, because I was short on time.
> 
> This time around, I did both. Still not too impressed with Canyonland. It's kind of nice. But with Arches right next door (actually shorter drive from town), it's just so much more photogenic.
> 
> ...



We went there twice last year once in May and once in June!  My wife and I are looking forward to going back!  We did weekend trips and we barely scratched the surface.  Some of the views seem out of this world.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 9, 2021)

Would like to buy 50 acres there and put a big warehouse type structure on it...then I can get away from the crowds..and pull my trucks and bikes right into the living room...


----------



## abc (Jul 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Would like to buy 50 acres there and put a big warehouse type structure on it...then I can get away from the crowds..and pull my *trucks* and bikes right into the living room...


"4-wheeling" is big out that way. Lots of jeep roads, or old abandoned mining tracks that goes way up high or deep into the wilderness. Got roped into a couple of trips by my local friends.

Can't say I care for it though. It's one thing to get scraped up a bit if I make a small mistake and fall off my mountain bike. Something else to have 2 ton metal lands on top of me if I make a similar mistake.

Granted, the appeal is clear 


Less clear about the “away from the crowd” part though. We saw something like 5 trucks while taking pictures at the top. More annoying is having to pull off to the edge of the track every time we encounter other trucks on the narrow track. (to be fair, this was the July 4th weekend, maybe less madness other times)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2021)

urungus said:


> Um, “Utah folks” ran the most corrupt Winter Olympics in history.  Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympic_bid_scandal



I'm sure this has been eclipsed by Qatar 2022 in terms of sports corruption.  Literally the second I saw Qatar won I knew that **** was rigged bad.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Some of the views seem out of this world.



Which is fitting given they film Mars movie scenes in Utah.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 14, 2021)

I felt like I was on Mars the whole time out there...food was good too.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I felt like I was on Mars the whole time out there...food was good too.


The southern Utah folks knock the ball out of the park with burger and fry joints but everything else falls short imo.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 17, 2021)

Slc is dispersing
Forums people better ski there before it's gone









						Great Salt Lake is shrinking fast. Scientists demand action before it becomes a toxic dustbin | CNN
					

Great Salt Lake is also known as America's Dead Sea -- owing to a likeness to its much smaller Middle Eastern counterpart -- but scientists worry the moniker could soon take new meaning.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## abc (Jul 17, 2021)

You can ski on the salt lake?


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 18, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Slc is dispersing
> Forums people better ski there before it's gone
> 
> 
> ...


Everything is so F-d out here. Things change, I get that but this is kind of sad. This civilization is definitely on the decline now. I wish people would control their freaking breeding a little.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 19, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> The southern Utah folks knock the ball out of the park with burger and fry joints but everything else falls short imo.


Peanut butter, bannana, granola and blueberry wrap..had one every day at Glorias...didn't need to eat the rest of the day.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 19, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Peanut butter, bannana, granola and blueberry wrap..had one every day at Glorias...didn't need to eat the rest of the day.


You sure you weren’t in California?


----------



## kingslug (Jul 20, 2021)

Once other people tried it..they started ordering it..very addictive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2021)

SLCo leaders announce Little Cottonwood Canyon traffic plan recommendation
					

Salt Lake County leaders released their recommendation about how to improve traffic in Little Cottonwood Canyon Wednesday, and it does not support the $1 billion gondola project.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## jimk (Sep 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> SLCo leaders announce Little Cottonwood Canyon traffic plan recommendation
> 
> 
> Salt Lake County leaders released their recommendation about how to improve traffic in Little Cottonwood Canyon Wednesday, and it does not support the $1 billion gondola project.
> ...


Thanks for keeping this on topic.

Not a surprise, esp given the strong opposition by local non-skiing tax payers to any expensive fixes.   Sounds like they are going to impose tolls so that those who use the road the most;  that is skiers, are forced to pay or carpool.  Only after trying that for a few years will they consider enhanced busing.  Gondola sounds like a non-starter for the foreseeable future.  Too bad.  Selfishly, as a skier I would have liked a new gondola AND more buses


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2021)

i take everything the wasatch backcountry alliance says with a grain of salt, but in their op-ed opposing the gondola they mentioned that they would need to clear all the cabins from the line and do heavy reinspections on the line after every avalanche mitigation anywhere in the canyon. that sounded impractical, but I also know my source has a heavy agenda.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 2, 2021)

I think would it have to be true.  They inspect all lifts everyday everywhere before running and with avalanches potentially hitting them even more scrutiny.  I liked the idea of adding the concrete tunnels to the road so the avi's can pass over the road.  That would be a billion better spent.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2021)

jimk said:


> Thanks for keeping this on topic.
> 
> Not a surprise, esp given the strong opposition by local non-skiing tax payers to any expensive fixes.   Sounds like they are going to impose tolls so that those who use the road the most;  that is skiers, are forced to pay or carpool.  Only after trying that for a few years will they consider enhanced busing.  Gondola sounds like a non-starter for the foreseeable future.  Too bad.  Selfishly, as a skier I would have liked a new gondola AND more buses


Final decision still not made.  I think it will end up with bus lanes and road fixes.  A lot are coming out against the gondola for a number of reasons.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i take everything the wasatch backcountry alliance says with a grain of salt, but in their op-ed opposing the gondola they mentioned that they would need to clear all the cabins from the line and do heavy reinspections on the line after every avalanche mitigation anywhere in the canyon. that sounded impractical, but I also know my source has a heavy agenda.


So I have listened to the testimony from the last two meetings.  Honestly, I just had it on in the background as I worked on other things.  In terms of the breakdown, here goes.  There are few in favor of the gondola, a lot bitching about Wasatch Boulevard in Cottonwood Heights, a good number in favor of buses WITH some changes added (some made a lot of sense), some against everything, a few asking for Zion-style bus system, several rock climbers against everything, and two guys shamelessly promoting their own "inventions" to replace cars. 

Dave Fields came from Snowbird and testified in favor of the gondola. 

Bob Bonar, "Cottonwood Heights Resident" also testified in favor of the gondola and read off a script.  If that name sounds familiar it is because he is the FORMER CEO of Snowbird.

And another familiar name, Onno Wieringa, former Alta Manager now "Poma Leitner Consultant" testified pro gondola. 

No big surprises.  I did hear the Wasatch Backcountry Alliance Rep make some pretty interesting claims (no gondola in lightning, delays to inspect after avi work, no access for users of the backcountry, and opening the door to One Wasatch).  I have yet to hear Save the Canyons weigh in--their solution is to close everything down and put LCC back into the 1700's.  That ain't happening,

As you all saw, the county came in pro-bus.  No surprise.  

I have a hard time seeing UDOT going for the gondola.  UDOT is not in the ski lift business.  They don't have an expertise in that area and it would be a huge learning curve.  There are also a lot of unanswered questions about fares--how much and who pays.  I just see UDOT looking at this as a road issue and offering a road solution because most of their experience is with roads.  The fact that they actually considered the gondola this far is very interesting--I expected it to be dismissed out of hand.  That said, it was only considered after a well-connected real estate developer and former elected official pushed to have it start on his piece of land.  A fair number of folks pointed that out at the hearing.  He also spoke in favor of the gondola.  

I love gondolas but I just don't see this as a practical solution or, honestly, one that I would use.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2021)

WBA also claimed the gondola would only operate in ski season and therefore only serve the corporate interests of the ski areas

I am not familiar at all with traffic in the summer but I imagine the winter canyon traffic experience is completely different than the summer one, and the gondola wouldn't be needed in the summer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> WBA also claimed the gondola would only operate in ski season and therefore only serve the corporate interests of the ski areas
> 
> I am not familiar at all with traffic in the summer but I imagine the winter canyon traffic experience is completely different than the summer one, and the gondola wouldn't be needed in the summer.


Correct as to both.  

One person did say that it would work great for Oktoberfest.  That's a for-profit event.  There is a legitimate point that it is not set up well for those going to White Pine for skinning or hiking.  That's an issue.  

Of course limiting cars is not even being considered.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2021)

Testimony is here:  https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/draft-eis/

You can offer comments right up until tomorrow.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 2, 2021)

build the parking garage(s) and make it bus only unless you stay up there.  Use hybrid/natural gas busses, and emissions are lower.  Build some avalanche tunnels so it can stay open as much as possible. 

Seems pretty simple.  

If I'm out there on vacation I'll just consider the toll another vacation expense. I suspect most people would agree. 

The gondola was a cool idea to me because it would open the door to 1 wasatch, which regardless of what the NIMBYs say would really make Utah a very different location than anywhere else in North America


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> *  I just see UDOT looking at this as a road issue and offering a road solution because most of their experience is with roads.*



Sadly, after 4,582 things are considered, I strongly suspect this carries the most weight.  
The cat will always choose "claws" to slay the mouse, no matter how many choices at its' disposal.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Of course limiting cars is not even being considered.



Is there any traffic discussion about a short tunnel between LCC & BCC?


----------



## kingslug (Sep 3, 2021)

Making it bus only would improve it a lot. Then you are in control of what type of vehicle is going up and down that road...a bus that is equipped to deal with it, not a car on bald tires. It won't mitigate the avalanche problem but thats another story. My bet is on this as it is what they know. Tunnels....damn expensive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is there any traffic discussion about a short tunnel between LCC & BCC?


Ted Johnson, former owner of Snowbird, proposed that idea almost 50 years ago I think.  Or maybe it was a loop train.  Either way you just caused Save the Canyons’ collective heads to explode.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2021)

A fair number of commenters noted that this problem was created by the ski resorts for a number of reasons.  One, relatively cheap season passes.  Two, the “four-letter pass”.  It does seem that the taxpayers are asked to subsidize the solution to a problem that the ski areas created.  This is the hidden cost of a discount multi-mountain pass program.


----------



## machski (Sep 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> A fair number of commenters noted that this problem was created by the ski resorts for a number of reasons.  One, relatively cheap season passes.  Two, the “four-letter pass”.  It does seem that the taxpayers are asked to subsidize the solution to a problem that the ski areas created.  This is the hidden cost of a discount multi-mountain pass program.


So the flip side to that is the resorts cannot lodge all the increased skiers.  So that boosts the SLC basin lodging and visitation, adding revenue into the tax base that the locals do not have to.  

So yes, you could cut out the big cheap passes from the Canyon resorts (well, not really Solitude).  The question is, would the resorts be able to continue to draw at a good enough level alone to be fiscally stable and able to reinvest?  And by alone, I mean that to be drawing enough interest without a combo pass lead in.  What may have happened before may not exist in the current super pass era for that.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 4, 2021)

machski said:


> So the flip side to that is the resorts cannot lodge all the increased skiers.  So that boosts the SLC basin lodging and visitation, adding revenue into the tax base that the locals do not have to.
> 
> So yes, you could cut out the big cheap passes from the Canyon resorts (well, not really Solitude).  The question is, would the resorts be able to continue to draw at a good enough level alone to be fiscally stable and able to reinvest?  And by alone, I mean that to be drawing enough interest without a combo pass lead in.  What may have happened before may not exist in the current super pass era for that.


The whole valley is in out of control growth and word is out on Utah skiing. The corner is turned with or without IKON IMO


----------



## jimk (Sep 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> The whole valley is in out of control growth and word is out on Utah skiing. The corner is turned with or without IKON IMO


I believe snoseek spent quite a bit of time/yrs in Utah and so his opinion is very valid, same with trailboss, but as a longtime mid-Atlantic skier and relative newcomer to frequent ski days in Utah I have to offer an alternative opinion.  I have skied 30-40 days in Utah in each of the last three years and 10-20 days for the three years prior to that.  For me, Little Cottonwood Canyon is still Nirvanna.  There are only about 5 or 6 days each season when the canyon is a cluster-f and my easy solution to that is just to not ski those days or avoid the AM powder frenzy and go skiing at 130PM.  The rest of the season the place is great and the quality of the skiing superb, esp. considering it's a 20 min drive from my son's home in the SLC suburbs.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 5, 2021)

Never thought I would do it but we have had a good experience basing out of PC..then going to Alta/Bird a few times. PC doesn't compare but it gets snow and has pretty good areas. And yes..every time I say this someone says...but Alta gets more snow..yes it does..if you can get to it. 
Things are changing..have to adjust.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Never thought I would do it but *we have had a good experience basing out of PC..then going to Alta/Bird* a few times.



That's what we've done the times we've been to Utah.  I dont see what the big deal is, it's not that far of a drive, the highways are fantastic, and I much prefer the lifestyle / ski experience of the Back to staying in Sandy or something.  Not that Sandy isnt nice, but it's just not the whole ski vacation immersion enchilada.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2021)

jimk said:


> * There are only about 5 or 6 days each season when the canyon is a cluster-f *



Is that really true?  From this board & reading things like PCR, SLT, etc.. it seems like all hells' broken loose.  Just people over-complaining?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 10, 2021)

Right I thought this was an every weekend problem out there especially based on our SLC based moderator.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 10, 2021)

When its snowing..its a cluster. No matter how early you try to line up to get up the road. Then getting back down is a bigger cluster F. If its just a regular weekend..just get there very early.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Right I thought this was an every weekend problem out there especially based on our SLC based moderator.


If it snows, forget it.  

As commenters said, it is about 20-30 days a year. 

BCC is a mess most weekends because it contains the only unlimited IKON option.  

Ironically, holiday periods are now quiet.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> If it snows, forget it.
> 
> As commenters said, it is about 20-30 days a year.
> 
> ...


That's about right. And you're also right about holiday weeks...that tells alot about the influence the ikon has over traffic


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

snoseek said:


> That's about right. And you're also right about holiday weeks...that tells alot about the influence the ikon has over traffic


Correct.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 10, 2021)

sure, but a lot of the ikon traffic isn't tourist traffic. a lot of it is utah locals who were able to get a season pass to solitude with 15 days total access to brighton, deer valley, and alta bird cheaper than other local options.

if I lived in slc I think i'd probably ski at powmow and Snowbasin and avoid it all.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 10, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> sure, but a lot of the ikon traffic isn't tourist traffic. a lot of it is utah locals who were able to get a season pass to solitude with 15 days total access to brighton, deer valley, and alta bird cheaper than other local options.
> 
> if I lived in slc I think i'd probably ski at powmow and Snowbasin and avoid it all.


For sure. The area is growing super fast and there's a shitload of people down in that valley with a cheap pass and a pile of sick days going into winter.


----------



## jimk (Sep 10, 2021)

I'm trying to determine why my perspective on LCC traffic/congestion is a bit more rosy compared to others.
- I don't usually make my winter migration to UT until end of Jan/early Feb.  I ski 3-5 days per week until May.  I ski weekdays, but also usually at least one day each weekend.  Perhaps by not being there for white ribbon of death early season and Christmas holidays I am missing some of the most congested days??  Anecdotally, I did hear that many of the early season snow storms (Dec and Jan) last winter all seemed to come on Friday nights, which made the following Saturdays quite busy.  I wasn't in Utah in those months.
- I primarily only ski LCC (and primarily only Snowbird), I only enter BCC 1-2 times per winter.  I don't have a good feel for how traffic in BCC has worsened since Solitude became Multitude under Ikon.
- I felt last winter 2021 was actually lighter on average on weekends at Snowbird than some previous winters, but that weekdays might have been a little busier on average.  I guessed it was due to so many working remotely/from home and having more flexible hours.
-Winter of 2021 I skied Snowbird regularly for three weeks in mid-Feb to early Mar, then skied it regularly from late Mar to mid-May.  In that time I did not experience any big cluster-f days.  I did take two Saturdays off to get my 1st and 2nd doses of Moderna.  I also judiciously arrive late or leave the ski area early if I think traffic might be an issue.
- I come from the mid-Atlantic where the slopes are tiny and the crowds are huge.  Utah still looks like the opposite to me. 

Take note of large crowds in attached photos.
Feb 2021:









March 2021








April 2021 (April and May are when things are really empty and nice in LCC.)









Late Apr (27th) 2021:



May 2021


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

jimk said:


> I'm trying to determine why my perspective on LCC traffic/congestion is more rosy compared to others.
> - I don't usually make my winter migration to UT until end of Jan/early Feb.  I ski 3-5 days per week until May.  I ski weekdays, but also usually at least one day each weekend.  Perhaps by not being there for white ribbon of death early season and Christmas holidays I am missing some of the most congested days??  Anecdotally, I did hear that many of the early season snow storms (Dec and Jan) last winter all seemed to come on Friday nights, which made the following Saturdays quite busy.  I wasn't in Utah in those months.
> - I primarily only ski LCC (and primarily only Snowbird), I only enter BCC 1-2 times per winter.  I don't have a good feel for how traffic in BCC has worsened since Solitude became Multitude under Ikon.
> - I felt last winter 2021 was actually lighter on average on weekends at Snowbird than some previous winters, but that weekdays might have been a little busier on average.  I guessed it was due to so many working remotely/from home and having more flexible hours.
> ...


Four points.  First, the parking reservation system deterred a lot of folks from Snowbird (but forced more to Alta).  Second, at that point in the season (later in February) most folks have used "their days" in LCC on IKON and don't come.  Third, you went a lot midweek.  Last, at least based upon memory, we did not get a lot of storms on weekends later in the season.  If anything, it warmed up pretty fast and we got little or nothing later in the season.  Those may explain why you saw what you did.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 10, 2021)

good to know that the mormon folk aren't good at edging     


thetrailboss said:


> Second, at that point in the season (later in February) most folks have used "their days" in LCC on IKON and don't come.


----------



## p_levert (Sep 10, 2021)

My solution to the overcrowding at Alta problem is to ski at A-Basin.  I last went to Alta in 2019, after being away for two decades.  It was fun, but just too crowded for my taste.  A-Basin rocks.


----------



## machski (Sep 10, 2021)

p_levert said:


> My solution to the overcrowding at Alta problem is to ski at A-Basin.  I last went to Alta in 2019, after being away for two decades.  It was fun, but just too crowded for my taste.  A-Basin rocks.


Correction, A-Basin rocks now (again) now that they are limited partners on Ikon and limit those visits even further.  Had you gone there in 2019 under unlimited Epic days, your tune may have been different. Good on them for pivoting to best serve their overall clientele.  And good for the parent company for going the lower income route too.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

machski said:


> Correction, A-Basin rocks now (again) now that they are limited partners on Ikon and limit those visits even further.  Had you gone there in 2019 under unlimited Epic days, your tune may have been different. Good on them for pivoting to best serve their overall clientele.  And good for the parent company for going the lower income route too.


What did A-Basin do?


----------



## kancamagus (Sep 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> What did A-Basin do?











						2021-22 Season - What To Expect
					

We have experienced a tumultuous and uproarious few years at Arapahoe Basin. From major expansions to pass partner changes to 4 th  of July ...




					arapahoebasin.blogspot.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 11, 2021)

It’s weird to site anything in summit county as the antidote to Utah crowds. A-basin is great, amazing terrain, and it’s cool how they’re taking active steps to mitigate crowding, but come on, lol, i70 Denver region is not a shining star of uncrowded skiing. even if the on mountain experience at a basin is great the traffic is outrageous and the parking can be a calamity


----------



## p_levert (Sep 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> It’s weird to site anything in summit county as the antidote to Utah crowds. A-basin is great, amazing terrain, and it’s cool how they’re taking active steps to mitigate crowding, but come on, lol, i70 Denver region is not a shining star of uncrowded skiing. even if the on mountain experience at a basin is great the traffic is outrageous and the parking can be a calamity



Even with the dissociation from evil Epic, on nice weekends in the spring, the parking lot at A-Basin can fill up.  But once you're on the slopes, it's great.  I usually ski Pali and the Beavers.  Pretty much never a line, even on weekends.  During the week A-Basin is completely wide open, both parking and lifts.  Alta is a different story.   Even during the week, there can be lift lines.

If you ski at A-Basin, you're not going to be overwhelmed by the difficulty at Alta.  Alta used to be famous for extreme slopes, but it's not that crazy by 21st century standards.   And A-Basin actually has tree skiing, which is pretty sparse at Alta.

But, I have to admit, nothing beats an Alta snowstorm.  The dumps are truly amazing.


----------



## jimk (Sep 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Four points.  First, the parking reservation system deterred a lot of folks from Snowbird (but forced more to Alta).  Second, at that point in the season (later in February) most folks have used "their days" in LCC on IKON and don't come.  Third, you went a lot midweek.  Last, at least based upon memory, we did not get a lot of storms on weekends later in the season.  If anything, it warmed up pretty fast and we got little or nothing later in the season.  Those may explain why you saw what you did.


Good points, esp about the parking reservations.  I'm sure that had a moderating effect on weekend crowds at Snowbird.  Bottom line, if you want the old uncrowded LCC, go in early April.


p_levert said:


> My solution to the overcrowding at Alta problem is to ski at A-Basin.  I last went to Alta in 2019, after being away for two decades.  It was fun, but just too crowded for my taste.  A-Basin rocks.


A-Basin is great!  The expert terrain at A-Basin is more *in your face* than Alta and I say that without ever skiing from the top of the East Wall.  My impressions & photos from a couple different visits in 2019:
The new Beavers Lift with its 1501' vertical is a fantastic addition to the ski area.  I already loved A-Basin, but it's always been a tough place to visit on a cloudy, low visibility day.  The tree lined groomers and extensive/varied glades of the Beavers is the perfect solution for that kind of day.  All the terrain in the Beavers is dark blue or single to double black diamond.  I did not ski the adjacent and also new Steep Gullies area because it is extreme tree skiing terrain and requires a long hike out and I'm an old guy.
Following four from Beavers section of A-Basin, 2019





No doubt the pandemic has knocked a lot of traffic/skier-visit patterns out of whack.  It will be interesting to see what happens this winter.  It's possible we'll still be in some sort of socially distanced mode, hard to say??  Judicious travel in late season should still be a reliable method for avoiding crowds.  One of the best low-crowd (mid-season) ski days I've had recently was in late Feb 2020 at Grand Targhee, WY.  It was a breath of fresh air after several very crowded days at Jackson.  Didn't hurt that is was a pretty/sunny day with packed powder conditions:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Ironically, holiday periods are now quiet.



That aint gonna' last; it's too idiotic, they'll figure out a way to re-monetize those periods better.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2021)

kancamagus said:


> 2021-22 Season - What To Expect
> 
> 
> We have experienced a tumultuous and uproarious few years at Arapahoe Basin. From major expansions to pass partner changes to 4 th  of July ...
> ...


So they ditched Epic, took on IKON, and to "alleviate crowding" are selling less season passes.  I don't see that happening here--Alta and Snowbird want to be hogs and have their cake and eat it too.  I also don't see that as a huge improvement.  Maybe it will be (?)

And it confirms something I said a while back--season passholders being asked to give up something for IKON.  In this case, 10% of the season passholders will not be back.  How does that make sense?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That aint gonna' last; it's too idiotic, they'll figure out a way to re-monetize those periods better.


No doubt John Cumming is working on this.  The last time I was at Snowbird, about a month ago, multiple employees talked about how they are being pushed "to cut costs" and "make up for losses."


----------



## machski (Sep 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So they ditched Epic, took on IKON, and to "alleviate crowding" are selling less season passes.  I don't see that happening here--Alta and Snowbird want to be hogs and have their cake and eat it too.  I also don't see that as a huge improvement.  Maybe it will be (?)
> 
> And it confirms something I said a while back--season passholders being asked to give up something for IKON.  In this case, 10% of the season passholders will not be back.  How does that make sense?


How do you know the reduced Season Pass sales are to make room for Ikon?  I doubt that, on Epic they were unlimited, on Ikon it is a 5 or 7 day limit.  And Ikon while having some decent pull in CO has no where the draw Epic does.  I think this speaks more to coming off an unlimited Epic enough CO skiers learned to like A-Basin from Epic times that demand for A-Basin passes grew in popularity, to the point they decided to limit them.  Now, A-Basin is suppose to replace a standing FG lift next summer with a Detach 6.  Will be interesting to see if they are accepting lower revenue if that plan moves forward.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2021)

machski said:


> How do you know the reduced Season Pass sales are to make room for Ikon?


That's what the press release clearly implies.  They took on IKON and have reduced their season pass sales by 10%.  Why else would you cut your largest book of business by 10%?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2021)

As to housing:  https://www.ksl.com/article/5024250...-idaho-cities-rank-as-nations-most-overvalued


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 18, 2021)

UDOT received 13,000 comments 









						Record-breaking number of public comments could delay Little Cottonwood traffic plans
					

The Utah Department of Transportation received a staggering 13,000 submissions during the public comment period for the Environmental Impact Statement regarding traffic in Little Cottonwood Canyon.




					www.deseret.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As to housing:  https://www.ksl.com/article/5024250...-idaho-cities-rank-as-nations-most-overvalued



Yeah, this is getting frightening.  People buying a home today are almost assuredly going to be underwater when this bizarre cycle flips.  

It's one thing if you have an overvalued home to sell to buy another similarly overvalued home, those people arent going to get hurt badly, it's the first-time homeowners & young people buying homes that are going to get hurt, and possibly absolutely destroyed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> UDOT received 13,000 comments



And of course the politicians want the option with "tolling" - because that's the option which puts significant money in their pockets to spend.  Neither the bus, nor the gondy would significantly do that in any measure like a toll would.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And of course the politicians want the option with "tolling" - because that's the option which puts significant money in their pockets to spend.  Neither the bus, nor the gondy would significantly do that in any measure like a toll would.


I think that tolling was to go along side either option.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that tolling was to go along side either option.



With the gondy and bus options too?  If that's the case I missed it.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 23, 2021)

Awesome news for great mtn Snow Basin
We are thrilled to share significant enhancements and upgrades coming to the resort and guest experience. 

These started with the construction of new lifts and a parking expansion for the upcoming season; and ultimately will feature the introduction of overnight accommodations with a hotel and base area village. 

 https://www.snowbasin.com/future?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=development


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

Holy crap, a hotel at Snowbasin, they've only needed that since forever.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Sep 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As to housing:  https://www.ksl.com/article/5024250...-idaho-cities-rank-as-nations-most-overvalued



Boise, where homes are selling at an 80.6% premium.
Austin, Texas, at a 50.7% premium.
Ogden, at a 49.7% premium.
Provo, at a 46.2% premium.
Detroit, Michigan, at a 45.6% premium. 
Spokane, Washington, at a 45.2% premium.
Salt Lake City, at a 42.4% premium.
Phoenix, Arizona, at a 42.3% premium.
Las Vegas, Nevada, at a 41.9% premium.
Stockton, California, at a 38.5% premium.
Detroit??? I thought is was mostly a shit hole of a city that's so bad, that they kept changing the city limits, to exclude the burned out homes and business areas.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> Boise, where homes are selling at an 80.6% premium.
> Austin, Texas, at a 50.7% premium.
> Ogden, at a 49.7% premium.
> Provo, at a 46.2% premium.
> ...



Yes, but it's all relative.  You could charge $1.99 for a burger and it still be overvalued if it's 1 oz & tastes like crap. 

The Boise premium above is frightening frankly, and when you add Ogden to Provo and SLC you realize that basically 90% of real estate in Utah is way overvalued.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2021)

The latest:  https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...onents-declare-victory-after-mayoral-election


----------



## jimk (Nov 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> The latest:  https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...onents-declare-victory-after-mayoral-election


I haven't been in Utah since late May, but even back then there were Vote for Monica Z signs all over the streets of Sandy, many months ahead of the election.  They pictured her with that same red cowboy hat she's wearing in that news report you linked.  She had good grassroots support.

It's a tough issue.  As a non-resident who skis there a lot I'd love to see them build the gondola up LCC to lessen some of the car and bus traffic.  I also agree with the Snowbird official that it would be valuable as a blizzard-proof transport mode up/down the canyon.  But I recognize that many locals, even skiers, don't want the gondola.  They fear the environmental disruption to LCC.  But won't more buses and cars do the same?  They oppose the huge price tag for something that's only really needed maybe 20 days per year.  The anti-gondi guy in the news report said only 7% of the population would get any benefit from it, but what about attracting all the peripheral biz from millions of ski tourists coming to the state?

I guess you could argue - just slap a toll on everyone driving up LCC, maybe make it dynamic, so it costs the most on busy powder days.  That will throttle crowds, or force people to ride the buses (probably overloading them), or carpool, or redirect and increase crowds at other nearby ski areas??  We have dynamic toll roads on the busiest highways around Washington DC and personally I hate them.  They end up being private highways for rich/elite people who don't mind paying an extra $10 every rush hour to bypass five miles of slow traffic clogged by the unwashed masses.  At least HOV lanes got people to carpool.  Dynamic toll roads mostly serve single occupancy vehicles willing to pay for exclusive roadways, sort of anti-democracy.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 6, 2021)

Isn’t increasing prices or adding tolls make accessing public lands more exclusive? Not so public I guess…..

I wonder how the paid parking will affect the dawn patrol and back country skiing community.

At this point I’m completely uninterested in skiing there, it’s such a zoo!

The Nevada back country is calling me…..
The north face of 12,000 foot Mount Moriah in the North Snake Range.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 8, 2021)

Its a shame...one of the best ski areas in the country..and all this. Guess it was inevitable though.


----------



## jimk (Nov 8, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Its a shame...one of the best ski areas in the country..and all this. Guess it was inevitable though.


You don't have to feel too sorry for Utah skiers/boarders


----------



## ss20 (Nov 8, 2021)

^^^

Looks terrible.  I'd hate to live there.  

Box truck leaves CT bound for UT in 6 days!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 8, 2021)

It was the dream for a while...I can visit.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2021)

jimk said:


> I guess you could argue - just slap a toll on everyone driving up LCC, maybe make it dynamic, so it costs the most on busy powder days.  That will throttle crowds, or force people to ride the buses (probably overloading them), or carpool, or redirect and increase crowds at other nearby ski areas??  We have dynamic toll roads on the busiest highways around Washington DC and personally I hate them.  They end up being private highways for rich/elite people who don't mind paying an extra $10 every rush hour to bypass five miles of slow traffic clogged by the unwashed masses.  At least HOV lanes got people to carpool.  Dynamic toll roads mostly serve single occupancy vehicles willing to pay for exclusive roadways, sort of anti-democracy.


Road ways for the rich built with taxpayer money sounds a lot like socialism for the wealthy. 

I suppose one could argue that their 10 dollar donation each use may balance things out but I’d like to see the actual numbers on all of that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2021)

The  more time we have to think about this, I'm becoming hard-pressed to think anything is an actual "solution" other than a gondy.  The SLC population aint gonna' be shrinking.


----------



## Jully (Nov 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The  more time we have to think about this, I'm becoming hard-pressed to think anything is an actual "solution" other than a gondy.  The SLC population aint gonna' be shrinking.


A boondoggle of a Zermatt style train, but that isn't happening either.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2021)

Jully said:


> A boondoggle of a Zermatt style train, but that isn't happening either.


It's too bad that they did not pursue it decades ago.  Now I think that development is just too far along to make such a big change.  There is no space left for large parking facilities at the mouth of the Canyon.  Granted there are apparently plans for a parking area at the gravel pit area at the mouth of BCC but they would need more parking for both canyons.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 11, 2021)

They are now going to try to fix a problem that has gotten a bit out of hand. And a lot more expensive to fix. Considering the predicament we are in for supplies to build anything.


----------



## x10003q (Nov 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It's too bad that they did not pursue it decades ago.  Now I think that development is just too far along to make such a big change.  There is no space left for large parking facilities at the mouth of the Canyon.  Granted there are apparently plans for a parking area at the gravel pit area at the mouth of BCC but they would need more parking for both canyons.


It was 'too expensive', just like now.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 11, 2021)

Its now...way more expensive..as opposed to just too expensive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Its now...way more expensive..as opposed to just too expensive.


Right.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 11, 2021)

The gondola system is what should be built but the NIMBYS most of which are transplants will raise too much hell because they are OG.

Build a lift system and have a European style lift network. What's so hard about that...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 12, 2021)

Its funny..when you go to Europe and see the lift systems they have there..you think your on another planet compared to ours.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Completely predictable 









						Carl Fisher: Cottonwood Canyon gondola would be an expensive boondoggle
					

Carl Fisher writes that a Cottonwood Canyon gondola would be an expensive gift to wealthy landowners and tourists.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## ss20 (Dec 9, 2021)

25 minute ride up took 40 minutes this AM with 4".  Ride home took 50 minutes with 14" total in past 12 hours.  

Apparently when the ride home sucks people just hang out at the bars and drink...sounds like a plan to me!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> 25 minute ride up took 40 minutes this AM with 4".  Ride home took 50 minutes with 14" total in past 12 hours.
> 
> Apparently when the ride home sucks people just hang out at the bars and drink...sounds like a plan to me!!


Yeah, sounds like the red snake was alive and well.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, sounds like the red snake was alive and well.



It wasn't bad.  Parking lots at Alta were maybe 60% full.  Wildcat, Sugarloaf, and Collins were a 0-10 chair wait all day save for the start.


----------



## x10003q (Dec 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Completely predictable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Somebody needs to cut Carl Fisher a check - pronto!


----------



## ss20 (Dec 10, 2021)

50 minutes up and 30 minutes down today.  Heavy snow on the way up, storm total 2ft+.  The effect of ridges and snow production is insane.  There was 3 feet+ in the bowl below the Wildcat unload.  Honestly my first time skiing bottomless powder and the first time being unable to see because of entering "the white room"...and it's only going to get better!!!  

Tomorrow is dry roads but it'll be the first busy Saturday of the season with tons of new snow and parking reservations not yet in effect.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> 50 minutes up and 30 minutes down today.  Heavy snow on the way up, storm total 2ft+.  The effect of ridges and snow production is insane.  There was 3 feet+ in the bowl below the Wildcat unload.  Honestly my first time skiing bottomless powder and the first time being unable to see because of entering "the white room"...and it's only going to get better!!!
> 
> Tomorrow is dry roads but it'll be the first busy Saturday of the season with tons of new snow and parking reservations not yet in effect.


Sounds like Utah delivered


----------



## ss20 (Dec 11, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Sounds like Utah delivered



Yep!  28" in the last 48 hours!  Another foot+ coming Tuesday/Wednesday.  

Avalanche danger is considerable though as it was all on very old snowpack.  On the bright side, there was almost zero snow on the peaks along the canyon road before this storm so there should be no need to close the road for control work for a while (I theorize... @thetrailboss )


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yep!  28" in the last 48 hours!  Another foot+ coming Tuesday/Wednesday.
> 
> Avalanche danger is considerable though as it was all on very old snowpack.  On the bright side, there was almost zero snow on the peaks along the canyon road before this storm so there should be no need to close the road for control work for a while (I theorize... @thetrailboss )


Hopefully no control work needed.

Today was nice.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The gondola system is what should be built but the NIMBYS most of which are transplants will raise too much hell because they are OG.
> 
> Build a lift system and have a European style lift network. What's so hard about that...


What's so hard about that? 1.This isn't Europe. 2.The Sierra Club.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 11, 2021)

My ski club is going to snowburd the 15th..they were worried about the no snow condition..guess thats solved...bummed i cant go.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Dec 11, 2021)

ss20 said:


> 50 minutes up and 30 minutes down today.  Heavy snow on the way up, storm total 2ft+.  The effect of ridges and snow production is insane.  There was 3 feet+ in the bowl below the Wildcat unload.  Honestly my first time skiing bottomless powder and the first time being unable to see because of entering "the white room"...and it's only going to get better!!!
> 
> Tomorrow is dry roads but it'll be the first busy Saturday of the season with tons of new snow and parking reservations not yet in effect.


Just wondering if you’re using chains, snows or all seasons? Sounds worth it however you’re getting up the hill!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> My ski club is going to snowburd the 15th..they were worried about the no snow condition..guess thats solved...bummed i cant go.


Sort of solved.....

More snow coming in the next week.  It will be better after that.  Not much open at Snowbird right now.  Gadzoom, Part of Little Cloud, and Gad 2.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 13, 2021)

Looks like more for wednesday


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2021)

A good idea for the BC folks who now have to pay to park in Alta.






						Backcountry Shuttle – Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
					






					wasatchbackcountryalliance.org


----------



## ss20 (Dec 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> A good idea for the BC folks who now have to pay to park in Alta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because...UTA ski bus every 20 minutes isn't good enough?

Also, Alta has added a stipulation on parking.  You are no longer allowed to park before 8am weekends/holidays even with a reservation.  I guess they will actually be enforcing that rule this year.  I'm not a fan as if someone wanted to come up at 7am for first tracks...let 'em.  Now you'll have a crush of vehicles headed up the canyon between 7:30 and 8:30.  The people who wanted to come up early (and not at that peak time) can't.  

I can't say I've been inconvenienced by traffic so far.  Another snow day yesterday....roads were worse in the valley than the canyon.  Canyon section of the commute took 10 minutes more than usual.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Because...UTA ski bus every 20 minutes isn't good enough?
> 
> Also, Alta has added a stipulation on parking.  You are no longer allowed to park before 8am weekends/holidays even with a reservation.  I guess they will actually be enforcing that rule this year.  I'm not a fan as if someone wanted to come up at 7am for first tracks...let 'em.  Now you'll have a crush of vehicles headed up the canyon between 7:30 and 8:30.  The people who wanted to come up early (and not at that peak time) can't.
> 
> I can't say I've been inconvenienced by traffic so far.  Another snow day yesterday....roads were worse in the valley than the canyon.  Canyon section of the commute took 10 minutes more than usual.


I don't think I ever had an issue before Xmas. It's after when the hoards come that it's a problem


----------



## ss20 (Dec 16, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I don't think I ever had an issue before Xmas. It's after when the hoards come that it's a problem



That is good to know.  BCC has been a shitshow several days this season already.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Also, Alta has added a stipulation on parking.  You are no longer allowed to park before 8am weekends/holidays even with a reservation.  I guess they will actually be enforcing that rule this year.  I'm not a fan as if someone wanted to come up at 7am for first tracks...let 'em.  Now you'll have a crush of vehicles headed up the canyon between 7:30 and 8:30.  The people who wanted to come up early (and not at that peak time) can't.


Why are they doing that?


----------



## ss20 (Dec 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Why are they doing that?



"snow removal".  They added that little note of "no parking before 8am" just a couple days ago... the week reservations begin.

I would ASSume to prevent the general public from taking up employee parking (apparently a big issue last year...public was showing up before a sizable number of employees who then had no place to park).  But that doesn't really make sense as there's a limit to number of cars coming up so it's not like an employee could be shut-out of getting a parking spot.  But I really don't know anything.  I hope to find out as a lot of us instructors are up there before 8am...hoping it doesn't affect us, but if it truthfully is for snow removal it might as emps park in the standard guest lots.    










						Alta, Utah Early Morning Parking | HOME
					

Alta Early Parking Homepage. Parking Information and Reservations for Early Morning Parking in Alta, Utah.




					www.altaearlyparking.com
				






> Nestled in the top of Little Cottonwood Canyon, Alta is one the most popular and convenient access points for early morning human powered recreation in the Wasatch. While there are no USFS developed and maintained parking areas in Alta, Alta Ski Area has allowed use of its parking areas and private lands for backcountry skiers and other users. Growth in the Salt Lake Valley, coupled with an explosion in outdoor recreation, has resulted in more vehicles coming to Alta than available parking capacity on many early mornings. When more vehicles arrive than available early morning parking it interrupts snow removal operations, becomes a public safety issue, results in illegal parking, consumes parking areas allocated for other users and impacts ski area operations.
> 
> The increase of people desiring to use early morning parking in Alta has reached a tipping point and has necessitated management of early morning parking. As of December 18th, 2021, no parking will be allowed in Alta’s parking lots between midnight and 8am daily, except in the designated early morning parking area where parking will be allowed starting at 6am. Since demand is expected to regularly exceed the capacity of this early morning parking area, reservations will be required. This dedicated early morning parking area and reservation pool will allow a limited number of early morning skiers to continue to recreate in upper Little Cottonwood canyon during early morning hours after 6am.
> 
> ...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2021)

My guess is trying to force people into the bus or some other means of reducing traffic.  It won't work unless they literally say no parking except for employees and guests staying there.   There clearly is a problem, but I'm not sure what the real solution is.   The Gondola seems cool and effective, but also stupid expensive.  In theory buses are cheaper, but also have their logistical issues. 

Doesn't seem an easy solution other than to limit the people, which neither Alta or Snowbird seem interested in doing.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 17, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Why are they doing that?


To make it suck?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> To make it suck?


I guess so.

Bring Onno back.  The changes that Mike has made at Alta are all eroding what it was.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 17, 2021)

Parking sold out at Alta for tomorrow, 70"+ in the past 9 days, bluebird skies and temps in the 20s tomorrow.  Gonna be interesting to see how these reservations work.  I'm nervous.... today a person asked me on the lift how they'll know he arrived... like if there's a toll booth or he has to check-in somewhere, etc.  Basic question that should be clear as mud on the reservation website (I guess...it isn't apparently?).

Another girl asked me earlier in the week how to reserve a spot with a rental car she hadn't picked up yet (and therefore didn't know the plate number).  I apologetically said I didn't know.  I checked the parking website and F3'd (searched the whole page) for "rental" (as in rental car) and nothing came up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Parking sold out at Alta for tomorrow, 70"+ in the past 9 days, bluebird skies and temps in the 20s tomorrow.  Gonna be interesting to see how these reservations work.  I'm nervous.... today a person asked me on the lift how they'll know he arrived... like if there's a toll booth or he has to check-in somewhere, etc.  Basic question that should be clear as mud on the reservation website (I guess...it isn't apparently?).
> 
> Another girl asked me earlier in the week how to reserve a spot with a rental car she hadn't picked up yet (and therefore didn't know the plate number).  I apologetically said I didn't know.  I checked the parking website and F3'd (searched the whole page) for "rental" (as in rental car) and nothing came up.


To answer the first question: Alta hired lot attendants to “scan” license plates. 

As to the other issues, that’s all on Mr. Maughan.  No COO with half a brain would create the PR train wreck that he did right before high season.  If the claims in this article are true he should be fired immediately.  









						Parking at Alta? Skiers brace for chaos as town and ski resort clash
					

Chaos reigns as Alta Ski Area begins its pilot paid-parking program Saturday. Backcountry users are upset about a lack of access and the Town of Alta pulled out of an agreement after the ski area demanded the town not open its lots until 8 a.m.




					www.sltrib.com
				




In other news, the skiing today at Brighton was great.  I had multiple employees thank me for my business.  Alta, who got ten times more pass revenue from my family, treated me like a criminal when my Alta/Bird season pass did not work.  Once again, “it’s all Snowbird’s fault” they said.  It would be nice to feel welcome.  I think a change may be around the corner when it comes time to buy season passes.  A bean counter like Maughan should understand that…


----------



## JimG. (Dec 18, 2021)

What a shame.

Sucks that a local like you gets treated like a crook.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2021)

JimG. said:


> What a shame.
> 
> Sucks that a local like you gets treated like a crook.


Now you can see why I am less than thrilled with them.  And this problem has been a recurrent one over the past few years.  First day of the season--pass does not work.  You go to customer service and they say it isn't their fault.  To the rep's credit, she DID fix it this year and was nice about it.  But it is embarrassing on the first time, downright infuriating on the third time it happens.

As to the article, I am just confused how Maughan could be THAT dumb to create another fight literally one week before a big ski week.  And to pick a fight with the Town and businesses who work with the ski area.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Now you can see why I am less than thrilled with them.  And this problem has been a recurrent one over the past few years.  First day of the season--pass does not work.  You go to customer service and they say it isn't their fault.  To the rep's credit, she DID fix it this year and was nice about it.  But it is embarrassing on the first time, downright infuriating on the third time it happens.
> 
> As to the article, I am just confused how Maughan could be THAT dumb to create another fight literally one week before a big ski week.  And to pick a fight with the Town and businesses who work with the ski area.


To be fair my ORDA Ski3 usually doesn't work the first day but I was surprised it did this year.

For me their influence on the industry essentially means I won't ski at a lot of ski areas again ever. And frankly not mind at all.

I don't care what the business model is, that cannot be good.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2022)

Utah lawmaker seeks audit as UDOT mulls controversial solutions to Little Cottonwood Canyon traffic
					

Rep. Gay Lynn Bennion wants to evaluate the process in which projects are approved and determine whether “inappropriate” outside pressure can influence policy decisions.




					www.deseret.com


----------



## jimk (Mar 25, 2022)

@thetrailboss , after I've talked to numerous folks in Utah about this topic over the last two months I've come to this conclusion:  Most Wasatch locals (skiers and esp. non-skiers) are against the gondola idea.  In fact, they seem to be against all improvements (including more bus lanes) and prefer that LCC access be left as it is, and that traffic be moderated by implementing paid parking, perhaps complemented by free or lower cost parking for carpoolers.   In other words, make the skiers/boarders pay for the solution to the traffic problem.  Whereas, I think those in favor of the gondola are mostly resort officials and ski tourists. 

I talked to one Snowbird Mtn Host who wished they'd build a train line to Alta/Bird that would connect with the airport and the trains that run up/down the Salt Lake Valley.

Personally, I favor a nice gondola with a big free parking lot at the base of LCC.  But as discussed above, I think that will never be approved by locals.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2022)

jimk said:


> @thetrailboss , after I've talked to numerous folks in Utah about this topic over the last two months I've come to this conclusion:  Most Wasatch locals (skiers and esp. non-skiers) are against the gondola idea.  In fact, they seem to be against all improvements (including more bus lanes) and prefer that LCC access be left as it is, and that traffic be moderated by implementing paid parking, perhaps complemented by free or lower cost parking for carpoolers.   In other words, make the skiers/boarders pay for the solution to the traffic problem.  Whereas, I think those in favor of the gondola are mostly resort officials and ski tourists.
> 
> I talked to one Snowbird Mtn Host who wished they'd build a train line to Alta/Bird that would connect with the airport and the trains that run up/down the Salt Lake Valley.
> 
> Personally, I favor a nice gondola with a big free parking lot at the base of LCC.  But as discussed above, I think that will never be approved by locals.


I think it is too late for a gondola with parking.  There is just no land left in the Valley for "a big free parking lot".  A train was something Ted Johnson wanted and everyone thought he was nuts.  Now......?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 26, 2022)

Considering the cost of doing...anything..i predict they do...nothing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Considering the cost of doing...anything..i predict they do...nothing.


It’s UDOT.  They will do a road project.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 26, 2022)

Hope so...


----------



## ss20 (Mar 26, 2022)

I am in the crew voting for nothing to the canyon.  Add an alta express bus to skip the snowbird lots.  Make the busses cheaper.  Right now a family of 4 would spend $40 for round trip on the bus.  That's stupid expensive.  Meanwhile.... All of February was free to ride....

Snow weather days and canyon road closure days will still be shit shows... Even with 75% of the current traffic levels.  

I don't think adding a lane or building a gondola is the solution.  Especially with how successful parking reservations have been.  I think the solution is with a couple more minor steps.  Eliminating all Snowbird free parking, Alta Express bus, tolling of something reasonable like $3 for the road.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I am in the crew voting for nothing to the canyon.  Add an alta express bus to skip the snowbird lots.  Make the busses cheaper.  Right now a family of 4 would spend $40 for round trip on the bus.  That's stupid expensive.  Meanwhile.... All of February was free to ride....
> 
> Snow weather days and canyon road closure days will still be shit shows... Even with 75% of the current traffic levels.
> 
> I don't think adding a lane or building a gondola is the solution.  Especially with how successful parking reservations have been.  I think the solution is with a couple more minor steps.  Eliminating all Snowbird free parking, Alta Express bus, tolling of something reasonable like $3 for the road.


Any word on what Snowbird is going to do with parking?

Agree that the parking reservations at Alta have worked.  Rough start, but it works now. 

And FWIW most people ski on either a season pass or an IKON Pass so the Bus is free.  Dirty secret:  the real reason for the paid parking at Solitude was to at least make a dent in Alterra's UTA bill.  As of last season $0 has been donated to the clean air initiative that Alterra said the $ would go to.


----------



## jimk (Mar 27, 2022)

The last few weekends I see a lot of cars at the base of Snowbird, but small lift lines.  Are all the people catching the uta bus at Bird and going up to alta?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2022)

jimk said:


> The last few weekends I see a lot of cars at the base of Snowbird, but small lift lines.  Are all the people catching the uta bus at Bird and going up to alta?


Yes


----------



## ss20 (Mar 27, 2022)

jimk said:


> The last few weekends I see a lot of cars at the base of Snowbird, but small lift lines.  Are all the people catching the uta bus at Bird and going up to alta?



Yes they are.  Pretty common practice for the AltaBird early folks.  Get to jump the red snake getting home too.  The free parking over there is too much and causing too many little issues that add up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Yes they are.  Pretty common practice for the AltaBird early folks.  Get to jump the red snake getting home too.  The free parking over there is too much and causing too many little issues that add up.


Now that we're almost over, I can say that the parking reservations and Alta opting to be only on the IKON Plus and Full IKON pass signals to us that they at least care about our season pass business.  Yet another day where I had a parking reservation at Alta, started and ended at Alta, and left pretty happy.  As to Snowbird ???????

From what I have seen, John Cumming is doing the Donald Trump thing by monetizing the solutions to his self-created mistakes.  Don't like crowded liftlines?  Get the Fast Tracks.  No parking?  Pay $700 for a parking pass.  That is not sustainable.  It signals to me that Mr. Cumming takes us passholders for granted at the very least if he even gives a shit.  It is just like what he did at Killington--pissed off 30-40% of his book of business.  Keeping passholders is pretty easy to do but not for him.  I've ridden out some annoyances with Snowbird for the last 11 years, but this year is the worst in terms of dysfunction and service.  In the past it has been the terrain and length of season for me.  Now I can't park there and with the Tram closing on April 3rd and low snow I don't see them going very much past Alta.  It's not good to start the season angry with the owners, but definitely not good to end the season feeling the same.  When Snowbird asks us to renew they very well may be getting $0.00 from our household.

I hate being a jaded local.  In order to lighten it up a bit, I will let Mr. Bolton express how a lot of us local Snowbird passholders feel:


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 30, 2022)

No action isn’t going to go so well for the Canyons unfortunately. 

After skiing in Switzerland this past month I’ve developed new eyes. A ski train and other forms of transportation between all of the ski areas should definitely happen in the wasatch IMO. It’s a no brainer after seeing how they do things there. 

People don’t like change, we aren’t psychologically wired for that. Change presents itself as a danger and creates stress for the human brain. Sweeping the traffic and population problems under the rug is going to bite em in the ass.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Sweeping the traffic and population problems under the rug is going to bite em in the ass.


It's all about making the $$$$$$ in the now.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 30, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> It's all about making the $$$$$$ in the now.


Another human brain fallacy, short sightedness.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 30, 2022)

when this thread started I said that a "European" interconnect of the ski areas would be something that not only solves the problem, it would market itself!


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2022)

Who pays for added lanes or a train? The ski resorts? User fees like a toll? I cant see the taxpayers in Utah being onboard with a giant project that most of them don't use


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Who pays for added lanes or a train? The ski resorts? User fees like a toll? I cant see the taxpayers in Utah being onboard with a giant project that most of them don't use


The resorts want the taxpayers to foot the bill.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The resorts want the taxpayers to foot the bill.


Yeah I just don't know if that would fly in a state like Utah.
Charge a toll maybe and take that money to strengthen the bus system.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Yeah I just don't know if that would fly in a state like Utah.
> Charge a toll maybe and take that money to strengthen the bus system.


Theoretically that was a proposal.  

I initially was leaning gondola, until it became clear that a well-connected developer who is a former pol set himself up to personally benefit from this.  Additionally, I think that Alterra, POWDR, and anyone who is in the IKON program should be accountable for the traffic mess that they have created.  Alterra at least now tacitly admits that there are crowding issues.  For three seasons they denied it.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2022)

i just booked a cheap room near big cottonwood canyon for December 25 - 31, because I'm nuts, and maybe autistic.

with the way the calendar goes next year, i can observe gf bday 12/21 and spend xmas eve and morning with her, bag 5 ski days, and be home by evening on new years eve to spend new years with her. seems doable. looked at hotels near a-basin and most weren't even listing dates that far in advance yet. may also book something in truckee ca and canmore near banff. 

I'm a weirdo.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just booked a cheap room near big cottonwood canyon for December 25 - 31, because I'm nuts, and maybe autistic.
> 
> with the way the calendar goes next year, i can observe gf bday 12/21 and spend xmas eve and morning with her, bag 5 ski days, and be home by evening on new years eve to spend new years with her. seems doable. looked at hotels near a-basin and most weren't even listing dates that far in advance yet. may also book something in truckee ca and canmore near banff.
> 
> I'm a weirdo.


Nice.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i just booked a cheap room near big cottonwood canyon for December 25 - 31, because I'm nuts, and maybe autistic.
> 
> with the way the calendar goes next year, i can observe gf bday 12/21 and spend xmas eve and morning with her, bag 5 ski days, and be home by evening on new years eve to spend new years with her. seems doable. looked at hotels near a-basin and most weren't even listing dates that far in advance yet. may also book something in truckee ca and canmore near banff.
> 
> I'm a weirdo.


I can see booking the xmas week now to save some $$$$ but the other two, specifically truckee, why not wait and see how the season goes? I'm a big fan of hotwiring rooms last minute.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I can see booking the xmas week now to save some $$$$ but the other two, specifically truckee, why not wait and see how the season goes? I'm a big fan of hotwiring rooms last minute.



bc there is no penalty whatsoever to booking. i only do reserve now pay later + free cancellation til the last minute. so i just need to remember to cancel. and i do. i make calendar reminders in my work calendar.

i book the days inn in rutland every summer for every weekend in the winter and just cancel it every Thursday if i am not going to use it. i lock in like $100/night when the price shoots up to like $200 a night or more as it gets closer.[

and to clarify, I'm talking about booking truckee, summit county, slc, and banff all for the same dates so i can just lock in cheap hotels and then book flights and make final decisions when we are much closer in time


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> bc there is no penalty whatsoever to booking. i only do reserve now pay later + free cancellation til the last minute. so i just need to remember to cancel. and i do. i make calendar reminders in my work calendar.
> 
> i book the days inn in rutland every summer for every weekend in the winter and just cancel it every Thursday if i am not going to use it. i lock in like $100/night when the price shoots up to like $200 a night or more as it gets closer.[
> 
> and to clarify, I'm talking about booking truckee, summit county, slc, and banff all for the same dates so i can just lock in cheap hotels and then book flights and make final decisions when we are much closer in time


Ok damn this is some next level stuff I never thought about that angle.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 30, 2022)

I do similar stuff.  If there's even a slight possibility of a trip I book the cancelable stuff WAY in advance.  Basically hotel and rental cars.  Then I keep an eye on the prices and rebook if they drop.  I tend to commit to specific trips earlier than Krusty though.  I just like checking out different places, so don't really care who has the most snow.  When using miles you can often get the flight cheapest when they first schedule them.  In the past I've noticed United would usually have 4 seats available for 12,500 (one way) when booking is initially available.  

Playing the credit card game also saves crap loads of money.  I typically get a new card every 6 months, and cancel around a year in before any fees arrive.  More frequently than that and it could mess with your credit score (or so I've been told).  Can also do the same for your spouse and double the amount of tax free free money. Note: don't get a card for you spouse on your account and vice versa, a few years ago they started looking at that and rejecting applications more frequently.  Anyway, if you have the ability to be organized, I highly recommend it.  I've been doing it for over 25 years, no reason to stop now.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2022)

yea i wouldnt be opening and closing credit accounts that can be really bad for your credit

and agreed re: rebooking - i booked my car for my Idaho trip way in advance for like $700 and it dropped to $500 as the trip got closer. just gotta stay on top of it.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea i wouldnt be opening and closing credit accounts that can be really bad for your credit



My credit score is ALWAYS well above 800.  As I said, been doing this for 25 years.  Just gotta do it right, no more than 1 card every 6 months.  It's not for everyone, but if you can be organized it's free $$$.  Also, it can actually increase your credit score.  Just need to understand how credit scores work, but I'm not going to get into that.


----------



## jimk (Apr 27, 2022)

Pro-gondola mailings come regularly to my son's mailbox here in SLC.  Latest one says this about buses in LCC:

- data suggests most who prefer buses also have no intention of using them
- proposed bus solution is just more of what we have now
- the cost to taxpayers to operate a bus system is more than the gondola operations
- road widening plans will permanently destroy 50 acres in the canyon, gondola will displace 2 acres
- bus solution requires 48 buses in the canyon passing every 75 seconds
- resorts are the destination of more than 86% of LCC traffic year-round (annual avgs. 2018-2020)
- gondola solution would not require widening Wasatch Blvd or LCC road

While there seems to be a lot of local, grassroots opposition to the gondola in Utah, I'm told that some of the politicos and local power brokers are for it.  So we shall see?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2022)

jimk said:


> Pro-gondola mailings come regularly to my son's mailbox here in SLC.  Latest one says this about buses in LCC:
> 
> - data suggests most who prefer buses also have no intention of using them
> - proposed bus solution is just more of what we have now
> ...


I imagine that this material was paid for by Mr. McCandless.  Is he going to donate the land at LaCaille towards this noble cause?  I didn't think so.


----------



## raisingarizona (May 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Who pays for added lanes or a train? The ski resorts? User fees like a toll? I cant see the taxpayers in Utah being onboard with a giant project that most of them don't use


Well you could look at this in two different ways. One would be no way would I want my tax dollars going towards helping rich white people go recreate (skiing) up in the mountains or another way it's part of an effort to reduce emissions in a valley that is clearly struggling with them, create a better environment for residents and future generations and increase the overall quality of life and probably even increase property values. 

A train system shouldn't stop in the Canyons imho, have it connect the city, airport, etc. and begin to chisel away at the car culture and need to even have one. 

The smog is real in SLC and it's going to have to be addressed and dealt with at some point.


----------



## ss20 (May 7, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Well you could look at this in two different ways. One would be no way would I want my tax dollars going towards helping rich white people go recreate (skiing) up in the mountains or another way it's part of an effort to reduce emissions in a valley that is clearly struggling with them, create a better environment for residents and future generations and increase the overall quality of life and probably even increase property values.
> 
> A train system shouldn't stop in the Canyons imho, have it connect the city, airport, etc. and begin to chisel away at the car culture and need to even have one.
> 
> The smog is real in SLC and it's going to have to be addressed and dealt with at some point.



Funny you mention the car culture.  The light rail/street car system here is clean, modern, cheap, and efficient.  I take it into SLC whenever there's a big event or I'm planning on having more than a couple drinks on a night out.  That said.... the system is MASSIVELY underutilized.  I frequent one of the "hub" stations.... train to slc and ski bus stop there.  I have never seen the parking lot more than 10% full.  Weekend, weekday, AM, PM.... just hundreds of surface lots sitting unused.  The next station is even less utilized... to the point where I just noticed the UTA is using it to stage piles of gravel/dirt for whatever they're doing.  Honestly it is pretty painful to see this public good go so unused.  I love it and for $2.50/way vs gas pushing $4.40/gallon here it's probably cheaper than if I were to drive my car into downtown.  

And the train does connect to the SLC airport, and you could take it to connect to the ski busses.


----------



## jimk (May 7, 2022)

Never tried the SLC light rail/street car system, but see it often running.  Don't know its usage history.  But I used to use the subway in Wash DC a lot.  I know the pandemic crushed its ridership numbers.  Could take decades to get back to the volume of riders it used to have!


----------



## ss20 (May 8, 2022)

jimk said:


> Never tried the SLC light rail/street car system, but see it often running.  Don't know its usage history.  But I used to use the subway in Wash DC a lot.  I know the pandemic crushed its ridership numbers.  Could take decades to get back to the volume of riders it used to have!



I'm sure covid has reduced ridership.... but all the Metro-North stops (nyc commuter rail) were back at near-normal volume by the time I left CT in November 2021.  Which means overflowing street parking by 9am on a weekday at some of the busier stations.  Even my local station of Bethel, CT which I drove by most of my work days was 30-40% full... pretty similar to what it was pre-Covid (it's an awful 2.25 hour train ride to NYC from there...hence the low ridership... the main line 20 minutes away is where you'll see street parking and overflowing lots).


----------



## ss20 (May 8, 2022)

jimk said:


> Never tried the SLC light rail/street car system, but see it often running.  Don't know its usage history.  But I used to use the subway in Wash DC a lot.  I know the pandemic crushed its ridership numbers.  Could take decades to get back to the volume of riders it used to have!



Interestingly enough Google has yielded some open data on the UTA and ridership.  https://rideuta.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/43fc692872714c418a83343f481c2e99

November averaged 160,000 riders systemwide for non-covid years.  It was 95k in 2021.  March averages 150k riders no Covid... back to 102k now.  So you are correct Covid certainly has had an effect, but it seems like the system was still way over-capacity pre-covid given the conditions I see now, even if ridership is 60-70% of what it once was.


----------



## raisingarizona (May 8, 2022)

NYC is a completely different scene than SLC as far as using mas transit vs. personal autos.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 23, 2022)

Officials blast Little Cottonwood gondola as ‘boondoggle,’ call on UDOT to start over with canyon plan
					

Local Salt Lake County leaders raise serious misgivings about a gondola proposed for Little Cottonwood Canyon that would ferry skiers up the ever-congested canyon to Alta and Snowbird.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## ss20 (Jun 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Officials blast Little Cottonwood gondola as ‘boondoggle,’ call on UDOT to start over with canyon plan
> 
> 
> Local Salt Lake County leaders raise serious misgivings about a gondola proposed for Little Cottonwood Canyon that would ferry skiers up the ever-congested canyon to Alta and Snowbird.
> ...



I'm pretty sure we'll still be debating this 10 years down the road with nothing done.  I too, would like UDOT to restart.  I think just adding a center lane that can run uphill during the AM and be switched to downhill in the PM would've cost half as much as the other proposals and be a viable solution.  



> “Rather than rip up the canyon with a half-a-billion-dollar price tag, let’s invest in common-sense solutions. Parking hubs in the valley, electric busing with regular routes, carpooling and tolling, reservations, common-sense solutions that are fiscally sound. Gondolas and wider roads are going to be built around the world, but God will not create any more canyons for us.”


This is pretty much where I'm at.  With parking reservations we're close to a solution with little steps.  More busses that are cheaper, an Alta Express bus, traffic lights at Snowbird entries 1 and 2 akin to those on highway ramps that limit merging, and better staging on avi road closure mornings.  

I should just copy/paste this post from now on lol.  I feel like I've written this a dozen times over and still dozens more to go.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2022)

How much will UDOT’s Little Cottonwood traffic solutions really cost?
					

Opponents say maintenance, inflation, a Superfund site and earthquake mitigation could turn the estimated $592 million gondola into a $1 billion project.




					www.deseret.com


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> How much will UDOT’s Little Cottonwood traffic solutions really cost?
> 
> 
> Opponents say maintenance, inflation, a Superfund site and earthquake mitigation could turn the estimated $592 million gondola into a $1 billion project.
> ...


I wonder what the costs will be if nothing is accomplished? It goes beyond the price tags of managing the problems, looking the other way is not going to work either. But shoot, if that lake dries up the experts are predicting that simply living in that city will no longer be tolerable or safe for people and the skiing or snowfall totals will never be like they used to be. Locals there are still getting bummed about 400 or 350 inch winters. I wouldn't be surprised if 250-350 becomes the new normal for the Wasatch in another ten or 15 years. 250 inch season are really going to shrink the skiable acreage in the resorts boundary footprints.

Get it while you still can ladies and gents. Things are not looking good if you want it to remain like the good ole days.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 9, 2022)

To me, more surprising in the article was the expected fares.  $15 for a gondola ticket!?!?!?????  If people already don't ride the bus for $5 each way why would they pay $15 for a roundtrip ticket on the gondola??  And $25-$30 for a private vehicle up the road?  Sheesh.  We need to decrease road demand a bit...slightly...this seems draconian to me.  $30 to take a car up LCC on a random Tuesday in March is bullshit, as is $60 in gondola tickets everyday for a family of 4.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2022)

Who owns the land for the proposed Little Cottonwood Canyon gondola station?
					

In September, Snowbird quietly bought 5 acres of land at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon where state officials proposed a base station could be built for a gondola to take riders to the legendary ski resort and neighboring Alta.




					www.sltrib.com
				




Spoiler alert



> In September, Snowbird quietly bought 5 acres of land at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon where state officials proposed a base station could be built for a gondola to take riders to the legendary ski resort and neighboring Alta.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 12, 2022)

Is it a shady self serving move or a conservation effort to help alleviate pressures on the Canyon and positive visitor experience? 

Personally it doesn't bother me at all and the article could be written in different ways depending on the journalists opinions or goals for reader reaction.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 12, 2022)

Or maybe some thinking down the road if SLC gets awarded another Winter Olympics....  We'll let you lease the land for the gondola base terminal, if inturn we (Snowbird) gets to host the premiere Alpine Speed events for the games, like they were originally supposed to do for the 2002 games before various environmental groups put forth enough legal challenges that the organizing committee made the choice to move the speed events to Snowbasin, which without a doubt was a GREAT thing for Snowbasin and made them a resort people want to go to with all of the infrastrcuture that was put in for the games.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Or maybe some thinking down the road if SLC gets awarded another Winter Olympics....  We'll let you lease the land for the gondola base terminal, if inturn we (Snowbird) gets to host the premiere Alpine Speed events for the games, like they were originally supposed to do for the 2002 games before various environmental groups put forth enough legal challenges that the organizing committee made the choice to move the speed events to Snowbasin, which without a doubt was a GREAT thing for Snowbasin and made them a resort people want to go to with all of the infrastrcuture that was put in for the games.


It's probably a little bit of all of these things. I can't hate on a business that makes good decisions for themselves and others.


----------



## jimk (Jul 12, 2022)

I wonder if they bought the 5 acres for a future employee parking lot?


----------



## ss20 (Jul 12, 2022)

jimk said:


> I wonder if they bought the 5 acres for a future employee parking lot?



Probably not needed, lot of their guys take the ski bus (as it adds almost no time compared to a car) and they run a more extensive employee shuttle service than Alta, from what I've seen.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 12, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Is it a shady self serving move or a conservation effort to help alleviate pressures on the Canyon and positive visitor experience?
> 
> Personally it doesn't bother me at all and the article could be written in different ways depending on the journalists opinions or goals for reader reaction.



Eh.... Snowbird owning that land ensures that should a gondola be approved that's one less parcel that the state will really have to fight to have the rights of.  But yeah, Snowbird can totally lease/sell that land for a big profit once the time comes.  I don't think it's super shady but they're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts either lol.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Or maybe some thinking down the road if SLC gets awarded another Winter Olympics....  We'll let you lease the land for the gondola base terminal, if inturn we (Snowbird) gets to host the premiere Alpine Speed events for the games, like they were originally supposed to do for the 2002 games before various environmental groups put forth enough legal challenges that the organizing committee made the choice to move the speed events to Snowbasin, which without a doubt was a GREAT thing for Snowbasin and made them a resort people want to go to with all of the infrastrcuture that was put in for the games.


So have you skied Snowbasin?  Sure, Earl Holding put in new lifts and built some nice lodges, but in terms of "infrastructure" there is not much.  No hotels, no places to stay, limited restaurants.  Was it better than before?  Of course.  

And business obviously increased, but it is way less crowded than LCC/BCC/Park City.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Eh.... Snowbird owning that land ensures that should a gondola be approved that's one less parcel that the state will really have to fight to have the rights of.  But yeah, Snowbird can totally lease/sell that land for a big profit once the time comes.  I don't think it's super shady but they're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts either lol.


Not exactly.  CW owned it and were getting lots of flack because its two owners were politically connected to the decisionmakers.  Of course McCandless was relentless in (self-) promoting.  So John Cumming creates an LLC to buy the land and was not smart enough to use a different address to conceal that he actually owned it.  No doubt the deal was to calm the claims that CW was looking to make $$$ off this.  But Snowbird, and POWDR, aren't exactly loved by locals either.....

And I don't buy McCandless' claims that he "won't" change the zoning of the adjacent lots CW still owns.  If he does not change the zoning than he will just sell very expensive single-family homes.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Or maybe some thinking down the road if SLC gets awarded another Winter Olympics....  We'll let you lease the land for the gondola base terminal, if inturn we (Snowbird) gets to host the premiere Alpine Speed events for the games, like they were originally supposed to do for the 2002 games before various environmental groups put forth enough legal challenges that the organizing committee made the choice to move the speed events to Snowbasin, which without a doubt was a GREAT thing for Snowbasin and made them a resort people want to go to with all of the infrastrcuture that was put in for the games.



Snowbird hosting any events would be a logistical nightmare.  Not saying it couldn't be done, but all the spectators would certainly have to shuttle bus their way up the canyon.  Doable but there's minute details like the driver shortage, equipping additional busses with snow chains, adding additional pick-up points all over the valley, dropping them off at Snowbird which lacks a proper bus/transit area.  I also think about the weeks of heavy trucks and machinery that would have to go up/down the canyon on either side of the event to get the grandstands/suites/support structures put up and taken down.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 12, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Eh.... Snowbird owning that land ensures that should a gondola be approved that's one less parcel that the state will really have to fight to have the rights of.  But yeah, Snowbird can totally lease/sell that land for a big profit once the time comes.  I don't think it's super shady but they're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts either lol.


Well running a business isn't some sort of altruistic endeavor anyways.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2022)

FWIW I think that the bigger concern with the Olympics at Snowbird is the road itself and avalanches.  It's the only way in and out.  In an emergency, access could be an issue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Well running a business isn't some sort of altruistic endeavor anyways.


Of course.  But Snowbird is asking for Utah taxpayers to pay $500 million to $1 billion to install a Gondola to benefit its business.  The LCC traffic problem is at least in part because Snowbird decided to join IKON and that increased traffic.  They are asking us to subsidize their business decisions.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Of course.  But Snowbird is asking for Utah taxpayers to pay $500 million to $1 billion to install a Gondola to benefit its business.  The LCC traffic problem is at least in part because Snowbird decided to join IKON and that increased traffic.  They are asking us to subsidize their business decisions.



1000%.  The ski area further down the road isn't a saint either but realizes action needs to be taken to control supply AND demand.  Snowbird only seems keen on increasing their capacity to keep up with visitation.  And yes, have you and I pay for it in the process.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 13, 2022)

ss20 said:


> 1000%.  The ski area further down the road isn't a saint either but realizes action needs to be taken to control supply AND demand.  Snowbird only seems keen on increasing their capacity to keep up with visitation.  And yes, have you and I pay for it in the process.



Ultimately what it gets down to, is as a whole, the ski industry has been essentially flat in it's growth for the last 20 odd years (sure there are some resorts that have grown and others that haven't and or gone out of business but ultimately the industry has been flat growth wise).  Now, it's trying to grow a bit, and certainly that does present some challenges on various fronts, but the industry needs to grow as many of it's current customers are far closers to aging out of the physical requirements that skiing/riding demand, and will be leaving the sport, and those people need to be replaced.  That is just a simple fact.

Now as the industry tries to grow, there are some consumers, who really dislike this concept as it changes what they're used to. It may mean that yes, there will be more people at their favorite resort more days of the season, and that can make them feel like their resort doesn't appreciate them like they used to.  

It's not an easy situation to navigate, as with any type of changes, regardless of it's an industry growth thing or something else, change isn't always easy to accept for all, however underneath it all, we all want a strong, healthy, vibrant ski industry that we can enjoy for decades to come, and that's going to mean that there will be some changes to address the fact that long term growth is needed, and when you factor in the push by so many for what is perceived as some Green initiatives to "help" the growth potential, you bring in an entirely different  level of costs and complexities often, such as how to get more people up LCC to meet the demand that various pass participation and pricing structures and population growth in the greater SLC area over the last few decades has created, above and beyond the tourism factor.  And I don't think that it's as simple as say "double the cost of a pass/day ticket and only have 1/2 the folks on the hill" as an answer since that affects the number of lessons/rentals per day and the food and beverage revenues as well...   It's a complex problem for sure, but one that needs to be handled for the sustainability of the sport


----------



## jimk (Jul 13, 2022)

I recognize that this is a complicated issue with a lot of competing interests and priorities.  But what about all the ancillary business that resorts like Snowbird and Alta bring to Utah?  The locals that are against the gondola seem to ignore the fact that skiing kind of put Utah on the map for many of us from other parts of the country.  
From a KSL report:
"In 2019, travelers directly spent a record $10.06 billion in Utah, generating an estimated 141,500 total Utah jobs, and $1.34 billion in state and local tax revenue," Leaver wrote.  Tourism spending increased by 3.3% from 2018 to 2019. About $8.6 billion of the spending, or a little over 85%, came from nonresidents coming into Utah.  Skiing and snowboarding was the largest attraction to drive tourism spending. It brought in $1.55 billion alone.


----------



## machski (Jul 13, 2022)

jimk said:


> I recognize that this is a complicated issue with a lot of competing interests and priorities.  But what about all the ancillary business that resorts like Snowbird and Alta bring to Utah?  The locals that are against the gondola seem to ignore the fact that skiing kind of put Utah on the map for many of us from other parts of the country.
> From a KSL report:
> "In 2019, travelers directly spent a record $10.06 billion in Utah, generating an estimated 141,500 total Utah jobs, and $1.34 billion in state and local tax revenue," Leaver wrote.  Tourism spending increased by 3.3% from 2018 to 2019. About $8.6 billion of the spending, or a little over 85%, came from nonresidents coming into Utah.  Skiing and snowboarding was the largest attraction to drive tourism spending. It brought in $1.55 billion alone.


All true, but so is the flip side.  The other question is with all these people coming into the Salt Lake Basin, can it handle the population growth/travelers?  Given all the natural refill streams to the Great Salt Lake are pretty much tapped out before they ever make it there, the answer might be no.  So should they build a Gondola to improve flow to/from LCC and potentially attract even more human traffic to the Basin?  A lot of questions to be answered and I think a really hard look at how natural resources will be used is step 1.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2022)

jimk said:


> I recognize that this is a complicated issue with a lot of competing interests and priorities.  But what about all the ancillary business that resorts like Snowbird and Alta bring to Utah?  The locals that are against the gondola seem to ignore the fact that skiing kind of put Utah on the map for many of us from other parts of the country.
> From a KSL report:
> "In 2019, travelers directly spent a record $10.06 billion in Utah, generating an estimated 141,500 total Utah jobs, and $1.34 billion in state and local tax revenue," Leaver wrote.  Tourism spending increased by 3.3% from 2018 to 2019. About $8.6 billion of the spending, or a little over 85%, came from nonresidents coming into Utah.  Skiing and snowboarding was the largest attraction to drive tourism spending. It brought in $1.55 billion alone.


True, but the gondola really only directly benefits Snowbird (mainly) and Alta.  As much as I love skiing, should I expect the other Utah resorts to ask me as a taxpayer to foot a $500 million-$1 billion for each of them?


----------



## drjeff (Jul 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but the gondola really only directly benefits Snowbird (mainly) and Alta.  As much as I love skiing, should I expect the other Utah resorts to ask me as a taxpayer to foot a $500 million-$1 billion for each of them?



Politician mind thought here....   (and I am not a poltician, but dealt with way too many of them via some professional associations I have been a part of over the years)

Keeping it Utah focused here.

How is asking the tax payers to foot some of the bill for the proposed LCC Gondola, something that certainly not every UT resident will use, but likely will help drive tourism dollars for the state and its residents as well as "help" with a traffic situation that much different than the tax payers of UT footing the bill for say a convention center and the associated infrastructure needed for it down in say St. George's?  Again, not something that by any means all UT tax payers would use, but it helps drives tourism dollars which does benefit the state and it's residents?

Thinking like a politcian is DEFINITELY a warped way of thinking of things for sure, as often it defies logical thought processes


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 14, 2022)

Are convention centers money loss or do they actually make direct money for the state/city? A gondola will make no direct money for the state. Yes it has an economical impact indirectly.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 14, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Are convention centers money loss or do they actually make direct money for the state/city? A gondola will make no direct money for the state. Yes it has an economical impact indirectly.


One has to presume that most of them ultimately are viewd as a positive economic driver for where they're built, or else you wouldn't see them in so many places, let alone in some locations with multiple convention center type locations.  Do each and every one of them actaully turn a profit?  Probably not, but if they regularly throughout the year bring in groups of a few hundred to a few thousand, utlimately that is going to be a positive thing for the local hotels/restaurants/etc in that area, kind of like a ski area is. Not something that gets used 52 weeks a year/every day of the year, but when it's operating, especially if it's a "destination resort" as the one's around Salt Lake City are, it's bringing thousands and thousands of people into the area over the course of the year and odds are that they're adding $$ to the local economy.

Heck, within my own dental field, I know that annually of the 3 -5 convetions that I go to, our state meeting in CT draws at 2500ish people to the Mohegan Sun Casino, our New Enlgand Regional Convention typically draws 15k people nowadays to Boston (used to be 25-30K people maybe a decade ago) and our national meeting typically draws 20k people on up to 40K plus people depending on what city it's in that particular year (lots of folks like to go when it;'s in Orlando and bring their familes with them too, not so many folks want to go to that meeting when it's in say Kansas City as it has been in the past.

I guess that the view that if they're attracting enough people into the area to be a net positive predictably on the local economy that that will offset any operational losses that they may incur to the organization that is running them, which very often if its a stand alone facility and not part of the hotel, will be run by some governmental agency.  You could also question then the New York State owned ski areas and wonder if the capital expenditures the statehas been throwing at them over the last 5 years or so especially and plans to continue doing ir seems for the next few years atleast is ultimately a net positive or negative from a fiscal perspective, even thoigh I am sure it is a positive for the surrounding communities


----------



## ss20 (Jul 14, 2022)

I don't see the gondola having much of an indirect effect on the economy.  Alta/Snowbird is one of the top ski destinations in North America, and arguably the most affordable and easiest with the SLC airport, transit to the hills, Ikon pass availability, and lodging well, well, well under $100/night 30 minutes from Snowbird Entry 1.  If you're serious about skiing, you're coming to this Mecca with a gondola or without.  No one is going to say "gee well they never got the gondola or improved road built, guess I'll just go to Whistler instead of Utah.".  Yes, you could make the point additional capacity up LCC is needed.  But this is not going to be a huge tourist attraction.  It's primarily for transit... that's what it's billed as, a transit solution.  Yes, I'm sure it'll do fine in the Summer as a tourist attraction but will people be lining up to ride this sucker en mass?  I don't see it.  

I don't see ski busses or a gondola increasing skier visits either, frankly.  If it did move the needle substantially (10%+) the on-hill experience would be a complete shitshow.  Neither Alta nor Snowbird has the lifts, lodges, or support infrastructure to handle 10% more skier visits, even if they're not coming up via car.


----------



## machski (Jul 14, 2022)

The problem I see is that both LCC and BCC have such limited lodging up canyons currently, this public lift structure still has to be used more often than say public lift/transit options in the Alps.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Politician mind thought here....   (and I am not a poltician, but dealt with way too many of them via some professional associations I have been a part of over the years)
> 
> Keeping it Utah focused here.
> 
> ...


News flash:  the proposal is for taxpayers to FULLY fund it.  And again it’s Snowird asking for $500 million to $1 billion.  That’s quite an ask.

And Snowbird is creating this problem.

Speaking of politics John Cumming is a big supporter of the Democratic Party.  Bright red Utah ain’t going to like that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2022)

If we’re paying half a billion to get people up the canyon, there’s one thing we need, Editorial Board writes
					

Time for Utah to be open about its great wide open, the Editorial Board writes




					www.sltrib.com
				






> At the core of it all is the natural tension between public and private interests. Owners of ski resorts — Alta and Snowbird in Little Cottonwood Canyon and Park City Mountain Resort in Summit County — of course want to attract as many paying customers as they possibly can. Public officials are left with the responsibility of reviewing, designing, building and paying for the supporting infrastructure, mostly highways or some alternative.
> 
> What those public officials may need to be reminded of is the fact that their primary mission is to serve the larger interests of the public and not, necessarily, the interests of the private developers and landowners. At least not when the two sets of interests conflict.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> If we’re paying half a billion to get people up the canyon, there’s one thing we need, Editorial Board writes
> 
> 
> Time for Utah to be open about its great wide open, the Editorial Board writes
> ...


We all know how that plays out when the choice is between monied interests and the greater good of the general public.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Ultimately what it gets down to, is as a whole, the ski industry has been essentially flat in it's growth for the last 20 odd years (sure there are some resorts that have grown and others that haven't and or gone out of business but ultimately the industry has been flat growth wise).  Now, it's trying to grow a bit, and certainly that does present some challenges on various fronts, but the industry needs to grow as many of it's current customers are far closers to aging out of the physical requirements that skiing/riding demand, and will be leaving the sport, and those people need to be replaced.  That is just a simple fact.
> 
> Now as the industry tries to grow, there are some consumers, who really dislike this concept as it changes what they're used to. It may mean that yes, there will be more people at their favorite resort more days of the season, and that can make them feel like their resort doesn't appreciate them like they used to.
> 
> It's not an easy situation to navigate, as with any type of changes, regardless of it's an industry growth thing or something else, change isn't always easy to accept for all, however underneath it all, we all want a strong, healthy, vibrant ski industry that we can enjoy for decades to come, and that's going to mean that there will be some changes to address the fact that long term growth is needed, and when you factor in the push by so many for what is perceived as some Green initiatives to "help" the growth potential, you bring in an entirely different  level of costs and complexities often, such as how to get more people up LCC to meet the demand that various pass participation and pricing structures and population growth in the greater SLC area over the last few decades has created, above and beyond the tourism factor.  And I don't think that it's as simple as say "double the cost of a pass/day ticket and only have 1/2 the folks on the hill" as an answer since that affects the number of lessons/rentals per day and the food and beverage revenues as well...   It's a complex problem for sure, but one that needs to be handled for the sustainability of the sport


The other comment I will make is that you are taking what Vail, Alterra, and POWDR are saying at face value in terms of "gee, we need to grow the industry in order to survive and discount passes is the only way".  I know folks in the Vail Sucks Thread have indirectly and directly pointed out that a "race to the bottom" is not ideal for folks on this board who ski a lot.

As relevant in this thread, when Dick Bass and Ted Johnson built Snowbird they KNEW that the road was a chokepoint and that relying on more people coming was simply not realistic considering the topography in what is a narrow, steep, dead-end canyon.  Snowbird struggled financially for a long time and Dick had many issues in trying to make it self-sustaining.  I recently read about Dick's issues in the 1980's with refinancing debt and how deals either fell through or came close to it.  Relying on a growth business model in an avalanche prone box canyon does not work.  

As I've frequently commented (and have been as equally ridiculed as you but as to IKON) is that Alterra ain't doing anything unique and simply said, "we're doing EPIC on a bigger scale".  Alterra, and the "partner" resorts, seem to think that they have to act like Vail in order to beat Vail.  Frankly I think that's nonsense.  I don't think completely destroying the ski experience we've had by selling discount multimountain passes that raise a lot of $$$$ for Vail and Alterra, but result in overcrowding and actually decrease yields is the answer.  The race to the bottom is not sustainable.  And, as the Trib Editorial I just posted mentions, Vail and Alterra are now making it too expensive for the 3-5 day a season skier and rider who are not going to buy a pass, even if it is an endless buffet of resorts around the world.  That pricepoint is too high despite the value proposition.  Additionally, newbies AREN'T going to buy an IKON or EPIC pass if they don't know if they are going to even like the sport.  So Vail and Alterra, for the first time I can ever remember, seem content on burning the future to save the present.  I've never see the ski industry just simply give up on getting new participants like that.  A learn to ski or ride package at Snowbird last year for one person for one day was almost $300.00.  And I can personally attest that Snowbird's Ski and Ride School is a shadow of its former self.  

Personally, our family has cut-back about 80% of our spending at Snowbird simply because it has sucked so bad.  Last year we were asked to provide DIRECT feedback to Snowbird and it was negative but constructive.  Obviously John Cumming can't read or is too arrogant to change.  He has consistently made bad business decisions and then when he suffers the consequences he doubles down and continues to lose.  As I pointed out, simply running the place AS IT WAS would get him $10 mill in season pass business every season.  All he had to do was turn on the lifts and he fucked that up.  But apparently a $20 per day per IKON pass deal was just too good for him and a good portion of that book of business is now gone.  So asking me to pay more for terrible service, and to pay more taxes to subsidize his bad business decisions by allowing him to get more people up in the Canyon is apparently his new answer.  

Full disclosure:  I started out PRO-Gondola but the self-dealing, terrible PR and treatment by Snowbird, and the facts as to how limited the system would actually operate and actually help the problem (no consideration for hiking and BC folks who use multiple trailheads) put me in the solid "hell no" camp.  It takes real skill for someone to piss off folks as much as John does.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The other comment I will make is that you are taking what Vail, Alterra, and POWDR are saying at face value in terms of "gee, we need to grow the industry in order to survive and discount passes is the only way".  I know folks in the Vail Sucks Thread have indirectly and directly pointed out that a "race to the bottom" is not ideal for folks on this board who ski a lot.
> 
> As relevant in this thread, when Dick Bass and Ted Johnson built Snowbird they KNEW that the road was a chokepoint and that relying on more people coming was simply not realistic considering the topography in what is a narrow, steep, dead-end canyon.  Snowbird struggled financially for a long time and Dick had many issues in trying to make it self-sustaining.  I recently read about Dick's issues in the 1980's with refinancing debt and how deals either fell through or came close to it.  Relying on a growth business model in an avalanche prone box canyon does not work.
> 
> ...


They know there isn’t much of a future for mass market ski business in another 20 or so years so they’re getting what they can now.


----------



## machski (Jul 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The other comment I will make is that you are taking what Vail, Alterra, and POWDR are saying at face value in terms of "gee, we need to grow the industry in order to survive and discount passes is the only way".  I know folks in the Vail Sucks Thread have indirectly and directly pointed out that a "race to the bottom" is not ideal for folks on this board who ski a lot.
> 
> As relevant in this thread, when Dick Bass and Ted Johnson built Snowbird they KNEW that the road was a chokepoint and that relying on more people coming was simply not realistic considering the topography in what is a narrow, steep, dead-end canyon.  Snowbird struggled financially for a long time and Dick had many issues in trying to make it self-sustaining.  I recently read about Dick's issues in the 1980's with refinancing debt and how deals either fell through or came close to it.  Relying on a growth business model in an avalanche prone box canyon does not work.
> 
> ...


I would only add that I agree Ikon's current day pass product is overpriced for the 3-5 day a year skier set.  That said, Vail's Epic Day option is very affordable for the 3-5 day crowd, especially as you can tailor it to fit the areas you intend to ski and potentially save even more.  Of course, you have to know this exists and pre-buy for the season ahead of time.  If we are talking pure walk up rates, yeah that's gone.  But let me ask, when is the last time you walked up to an airline ticket counter and bought last minute at "the window"?  If it's been a while, let's just say you'd probably faint at the ask there.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jul 27, 2022)

Do we have a sense as to why it is so expensive?  Steamboat's Wild Blue appears to be much cheaper per mile, and I would have thought that cost per mile would decrease with length (assuming a lot of the cost is taken up by the end stations)?  Maybe that is a very naive assumption?  Is it a Gondola or a Funitel?  Is it just that the government is involved so the bidding system makes it more expensive?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Do we have a sense as to why it is so expensive?  Steamboat's Wild Blue appears to be much cheaper per mile, and I would have thought that cost per mile would decrease with length (assuming a lot of the cost is taken up by the end stations)?  Maybe that is a very naive assumption?  Is it a Gondola or a Funitel?  Is it just that the government is involved so the bidding system makes it more expensive?


Two or so miles versus eight is a huge difference.  Different systems I think too.  Wild Blue is a 10-person gondola.  Last I heard about LCC it was more of a 3S system.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Two or so miles versus eight is a huge difference.  Different systems I think too.  Wild Blue is a 10-person gondola.  Last I heard about LCC it was more of a 3S system.



Yes this is a 3S system.  Higher capacity, able to run in higher wind speeds, a ton more tech specs even well beyond me.

Essentially comparing a Maserati vs a Ford.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jul 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Two or so miles versus eight is a huge difference.  Different systems I think too.  Wild Blue is a 10-person gondola.  Last I heard about LCC it was more of a 3S system.



The Steamboat one is over 3 miles not 2. 


ss20 said:


> Yes this is a 3S system.  Higher capacity, able to run in higher wind speeds, a ton more tech specs even well beyond me.
> 
> Essentially comparing a Maserati vs a Ford.


 Which one is the Ford? I assume it must be the LCC Gondola due to higher capacity and all weather requirements?


----------



## bigbob (Jul 28, 2022)

I would think that tower construction and placement so avalances wouldn't take them out would add to the cost.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 28, 2022)

You can see some pics here- https://www.doppelmayr.com/products/3s-gondola-lift/

The towers are essentially tram towers and not pylons you see on a standard monocable gondola.  The cabins generally hold 25+ people rather than up to 12 on a monocable.  3S lifts combine the capacity benefits of a gondola with the minimal ground disruption of a tram, while also being able to run in higher winds, and maintain much higher speeds than a traditional detachable lift.  It is the current peak of lift design.  It is honestly not even the same category as a monocable gondola.


----------



## bigbob (Aug 6, 2022)

Maybe the billion doallars would be better spent on refilling the lake first!









						Letter: Forget the gondola. If we don’t save the Great Salt Lake, it will be useless.
					

Putting the cart before the horse …




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2022)

Who is paying to push for and against the Little Cottonwood Canyon gondola?
					

Two organizations — Gondola Works and Friends of Little Cottonwood Canyon — have emerged in recent years on either side of the Little Cottonwood Canyon gondola debate.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## tumbler (Aug 29, 2022)

Jackson Street Apartments break ground
					

While national and international media descended on Teton County for Tuesday’s primary election, a well-dressed crowd walked across a nearly empty lot in the center of town to celebrate something




					www.jhnewsandguide.com


----------



## tumbler (Aug 31, 2022)

No TB love for the Cummings family?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2022)

Wow, this is a surprise.  The legislature has the final say though.  It ain't over.....









						UDOT backs gondola option for Little Cottonwood Canyon
					

The Utah Department of Transportation is backing a gondola option to solve Little Cottonwood Canyon's transportation and congestion problems, FOX 13 News has confirmed.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 31, 2022)

Increased bussing is great, but you still need to have parking at the bottom and limit people from going up the canyon.   The Gondola makes the most sense.  Sure there appears to be some shadiness with properties at the bottom, but does it really affect the environment more than a bunch of busses? 

This has the potential to be a game changer that we've not typically seen in the US with accessing Ski areas.  Also it could open the door for future connections to big cottonwood and over to PC.  They only people really bitching about that are the BC people who don't want to share their stashes which are probably already tracked out...


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Increased bussing is great, but you still need to have parking at the bottom and limit people from going up the canyon.   The Gondola makes the most sense.  Sure there appears to be some shadiness with properties at the bottom, but does it really affect the environment more than a bunch of busses?


If they are NG or electric buses than yes, it has more of an impact.



jimmywilson69 said:


> This has the potential to be a game changer that we've not typically seen in the US with accessing Ski areas.  Also it could open the door for future connections to big cottonwood and over to PC.


A big issue is that this is NOT about the canyons as a whole--it is only a solution for ONE canyon.  


jimmywilson69 said:


> They only people really bitching about that are the BC people who don't want to share their stashes which are probably already tracked out...


Not exactly.  There are lots of others who are impacted.  

And the bigger question is should the State taxpayers be giving in excess of $500 million to ONE private business who created this crowding problem themselves?


----------



## machski (Aug 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> If they are NG or electric buses than yes, it has more of an impact.
> 
> 
> A big issue is that this is NOT about the canyons as a whole--it is only a solution for ONE canyon.
> ...


So, let me get this straight, only Powdr is to blame for crowding up LCC?  Alta and its parent have no complicity in the crowding issues as well?  AFIK, they are both for profit operations and adding skiers (skiers and riders in the case of the Bird) is part of the game in increasing revenues and profits.  Look TB, we all know how much you despise Powdr, especially at the Executive levels.  But to just blame them for increased crowds up LCC is stretching it.  Alta may not have the Tram, but they have been investing heavily in on mountain lift upgrades over the last decade or so as well.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2022)

Why isn't Alta and Snowbird footing the bill for the entire gondola?  They're who will appreciate like 95% of the benefit.

This reminds me of sports franchises asking taxpayers to fund stadiums with the argument that it creates jobs at the local 7/11.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2022)

machski said:


> So, let me get this straight, only Powdr is to blame for crowding up LCC?  Alta and its parent have no complicity in the crowding issues as well?  AFIK, they are both for profit operations and adding skiers (skiers and riders in the case of the Bird) is part of the game in increasing revenues and profits.  Look TB, we all know how much you despise Powdr, especially at the Executive levels.  But to just blame them for increased crowds up LCC is stretching it.  Alta may not have the Tram, but they have been investing heavily in on mountain lift upgrades over the last decade or so as well.


Speaking as an Alta/Bird passholder for 11 years and someone who is up there almost weekly, I stand by my comments.

POWDR wholeheartedly jumped on the IKON wagon.  The business strategy is to get more bodies up there.  That's the new business model.  Because Snowbird owns a part of Alta (yes, Dick Bass was invited to buy a piece of it so Alta could get some capital to improve the lifts), Alta did not have much say and had to go along with it until recently when they started implementing parking reservations and most recently elected to drop IKON Base.  Alta responded because of its passholder base was furious.  Snowbird has done nothing for its passholders.  Since the creation of IKON, the crowding in LCC and BCC has gotten out of control.  Now the HOLIDAYS and IKON blackouts are quiet when before it was the opposite.

Those are the facts.  You may disagree, but that is what is happening here on the ground.

Now some other points:  first, I recall, and one can easily find, DOZENS of posts on here complaining about POWDR when it took over Killington and its business decisions.  I unfortunately have empathy now, but I think that people's memories can be short.  Second, your tag says you ski Sunday River a lot and presumably have a pass there.  Boyne is not perfect but they ARE requiring IKON passholders to make reservations at some of their busier resorts to at least give a nod to their passholders.  How would you feel if Boyne just opened the floodgates to IKON passholders while increasing your pass price, delivering to you a worse experience in terms of lessons and services, shortening your season, and basically tripping over dollar bills to get the coins in between the cushions?  And then asked you to foot the bill for a $500 million gondola to address their crowding problem?  Yeah, I think you would not be happy either.

Last comment:  now almost 90% of our business with Snowbird is gone.  We've voted with our dollars.  I like the terrain and the mountain too much unfortunately, but I think this is the last season for me.  We're all passionate here about this sport and when things don't work out it really hurts more.  That's what is behind a lot of my feelings.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Speaking as an Alta/Bird passholder for 11 years and someone who is up there almost weekly, I stand by my comments.
> 
> POWDR wholeheartedly jumped on the IKON wagon.  The business strategy is to get more bodies up there.  That's the new business model.  Because Snowbird owns a part of Alta (yes, Dick Bass was invited to buy a piece of it so Alta could get some capital to improve the lifts), Alta did not have much say and had to go along with it until recently when they started implementing parking reservations and most recently elected to drop IKON Base.  Alta responded because of its passholder base was furious.  Snowbird has done nothing for its passholders.  Since the creation of IKON, the crowding in LCC and BCC has gotten out of control.  Now the HOLIDAYS and IKON blackouts are quiet when before it was the opposite.
> 
> ...


In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 31, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.


They are requiring it for Loon...but I think that is the only one.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.


That's what I thought regarding SR and SL.  But apparently they are for Loon.  So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.

And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON.  It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it.  In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> They are requiring it for Loon...but I think that is the only one.


that is new this coming season as I didn't need to last season.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Increased bussing is great, but you still need to have parking at the bottom and limit people from going up the canyon.   The Gondola makes the most sense.  Sure there appears to be some shadiness with properties at the bottom, but does it really affect the environment more than a bunch of busses?
> 
> This has the potential to be a game changer that we've not typically seen in the US with accessing Ski areas.  Also it could open the door for future connections to big cottonwood and over to PC.  They only people really bitching about that are the BC people who don't want to share their stashes which are probably already tracked out...



Agree with every word of this.    And if you believe the forward population growth estimates for SLC & environs, it's either build a gondola now or build a gondola later after the bus "solution" fails.  Buses were never realistically going to cut it.  

This is also the largest hurdle in connecting the Wasatch Front & Wasatch Back ski areas, something that I've long said on here would confer Utah with an unparalleled marketing advantage if OneWasatch could become a reality.


----------



## NYDB (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That's what I thought regarding SR and SL.  But apparently they are for Loon.  So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.
> 
> And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON.  It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it.  In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

Also Natural gas isn't that much cleaner than regular combustion engines.  Don't believe the hype on "clean energy" associated with natural gas, its not that hard to find the comparison info...

If they are going to propose electric busses then fine, but I doubt that's on the table for this project. 

I also don't think the government should cover the vast majority of this.  the ski areas need to have a lot of skin in the game.  At the same time this is a public transportation issue and if it does expand into the 2 other ski areas, then I don't have an issue with there being some public money use to develop a public transportation network.  The solution for better access to SLCs ski areas exists currently all over the Alps...


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Also Natural gas isn't that much cleaner than regular combustion engines.  Don't believe the hype on "clean energy" associated with natural gas, its not that hard to find the comparison info...
> 
> If they are going to propose electric busses then fine, but I doubt that's on the table for this project.
> 
> I also don't think the government should cover the vast majority of this.  the ski areas need to have a lot of skin in the game.  At the same time this is a public transportation issue and if it does expand into the 2 other ski areas, then I don't have an issue with there being some public money use to develop a public transportation network.  The solution for better access to SLCs ski areas exists currently all over the Alps...


1 bus is better than 15 cars going up but obviously though the bus will only  have passengers in one direction each part of the day. Then parts of the day how many people will be on the bus.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

If they don't restrict traffic people won't take the bus unless there is priority given to the busses.  Its just the way people think.  If the only option to get to Alta/Bird is the bus unless you are staying up there then the bus becomes more viable.  just throwing more busses at the situation without limiting cars won't do anything for the problem. 

I know for me if I was sitting in traffic and the busses keep passing me, I'm probably going to ride the bus.  If the bus is stuck in the same traffic as I am then I'm definitely going to sit comfortably in my car


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

One opinion:  https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2022/09/01/building-gondola-ski-resorts-is/









						What’s next for the gondola in Little Cottonwood Canyon?
					

Wednesday's decision from UDOT on the future of Little Cottonwood Canyon raises questions, and here's what we know about the potential gondola.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## jimk (Sep 1, 2022)

Sounds like there is hope for the gondola, which is my preference.  Only problem is I'll be 80+ by the time they build it.  If I'm still alive and skiing by then, maybe I'll qualify for handicap parking next to the loading station


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 1, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Why isn't Alta and Snowbird footing the bill for the entire gondola?  They're who will appreciate like 95% of the benefit.
> 
> This reminds me of sports franchises asking taxpayers to fund stadiums with the argument that it creates jobs at the local 7/11.


Agree, the stadiums do create jobs, butt the taxes never come close to covering the build. Sometimes it works, for example Camden Yards in Baltimore which cleaned up the harbor, etc. Maybe all of the taxes generated, from bars, and the like came close. Then there's Yankee Stadium...


----------



## machski (Sep 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> that is new this coming season as I didn't need to last season.


They did require those during Covid season.  They may have last year on peak days/weekends but definitely not midweek.


----------



## machski (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That's what I thought regarding SR and SL.  But apparently they are for Loon.  So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.
> 
> And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON.  It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it.  In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.


I get some of your points, but any resort that makes improvements and left upgrades is eyeing a bigger piece of skier/rider visits.  Anything else said by a resort that does so is mostly contrary to R&D investments.  Yes, we can point to the JHMR's as an "outlier" here, but they must be returning higher revenues even as they "limit" Ikon/MC/day ticket traffic or they would cease investing on hill (and they have most certainly not stopped that).
SR is no exception TB.  We have no Ikon/ticket limits, traffic has backed up to the Walgreen's in town on some Saturday/Sundays and parking has maxed out before 10am on the main side, with only remote Jordan parking available.  Thankfully, with the breadth of the resort, you can still find uncrowded lifts/trails if you know when to hit certain sections.  But given the massive ongoing investments on the hill (snowmaking, while to many hasn't been obvious, is currently in the middle of a massive transformation to be fully realized next year), new Jordan 8, hopefully a new Barker next year and Merrill Hill this year, I fully expect them to be attempting to draw even more.  All this said, SR while I've been skiing their since 1990 has never been "quiet" weekends and holidays so I expect that.  And like you have seen, those peak times are often less crowded now than non blackout weekends.

Now, I don't think Maine DOT is looking to bypass Rte2 with a gondola from downtown Bethel up the backside to the top of Barker anytime soon.  Then again, our access does not require the transit of a very narrow, potentially environmentally sensitive dead end multi mile and 4000' vertical canyon that has major avalanche issues to boot.  There is valid debate on the public side of funding, especially if it will only ever just terminate in LCC.  That said, this is not the only public linkage town-mountain gondola proposal worldwide (two come to mind in NZ, one from Wanaka to Cardrona and another from Queenstown to The Remarkable).  We want sustainable transit options, this could be the way. Perhaps a bigger lean on the private side finding a private-public partnership would be more appropriate here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

machski said:


> I get some of your points, but any resort that makes improvements and left upgrades is eyeing a bigger piece of skier/rider visits.  Anything else said by a resort that does so is mostly contrary to R&D investments.  Yes, we can point to the JHMR's as an "outlier" here, but they must be returning higher revenues even as they "limit" Ikon/MC/day ticket traffic or they would cease investing on hill (and they have most certainly not stopped that).
> SR is no exception TB.  We have no Ikon/ticket limits, traffic has backed up to the Walgreen's in town on some Saturday/Sundays and parking has maxed out before 10am on the main side, with only remote Jordan parking available.  Thankfully, with the breadth of the resort, you can still find uncrowded lifts/trails if you know when to hit certain sections.  But given the massive ongoing investments on the hill (snowmaking, while to many hasn't been obvious, is currently in the middle of a massive transformation to be fully realized next year), new Jordan 8, hopefully a new Barker next year and Merrill Hill this year, I fully expect them to be attempting to draw even more.  All this said, SR while I've been skiing their since 1990 has never been "quiet" weekends and holidays so I expect that.  And like you have seen, those peak times are often less crowded now than non blackout weekends.


True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements.  Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside.  Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped).  But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding.  And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there.  John doesn't get that (or want to get it).


----------



## machski (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements.  Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside.  Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped).  But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding.  And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there.  John doesn't get that (or want to get it).


Or perhaps he gets that and sees the Canyon bottleneck as a reason they have slowed/delayed improvements.  Based on the current situation, perhaps they don't see the necessary (in their eyes) ROI without a transportation improvement.  Perhaps not coincidentally, Utah is promoting itself currently for a future winter Olympics, no?  Hmmmm.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

machski said:


> Or perhaps he gets that and sees the Canyon bottleneck as a reason they have slowed/delayed improvements.  Based on the current situation, perhaps they don't see the necessary (in their eyes) ROI without a transportation improvement.  Perhaps not coincidentally, Utah is promoting itself currently for a future winter Olympics, no?  Hmmmm.....


That is very true.  But it also demonstrates that adopting a growth business model that relies on high volume just does not work in this geographic area.  And if it was it would require a $500+ mill gondola that is not guaranteed to fix the issue.  The location is a blessing (snow, good vert, close to population center) and a curse (avalanche, narrow box canyon, no space for development). 

Remember we are talking about the guy who will forever be known as the guy "who could not sign a lease renewal" in business and law textbooks.  I think that inferiority complex is driving him to make more dumb decisions.

As to the gondola, it is now in the legislature's hands.  And Mormon Jesus has not yet spoken as to if he approves.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements.  Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside.  Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped).  But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding.  And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there.  John doesn't get that (or want to get it).


I think you need to move


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I think you need to move


Yeah, as I said, likely last season at Snowbird.  

And as to leaving the area that is also a consideration.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, as I said, likely last season at Snowbird.
> 
> And as to leaving the area that is also a consideration.



where would you go?

would it make sense to keep your life/home in SLC and just ski PowMow/Snowbasin on the weekends? downtown SLC to Snowbasin is a 50 min drive according to google maps. seems like a good way to not have to uproot your life but avoid the shitshows in the canyons. and i would think your typical tuesday at alta/bird is fine.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> where would you go?
> 
> would it make sense to keep your life/home in SLC and just ski PowMow/Snowbasin on the weekends? downtown SLC to Snowbasin is a 50 min drive according to google maps. seems like a good way to not have to uproot your life but avoid the shitshows in the canyons. and i would think your typical tuesday at alta/bird is fine.


The issues are more than skiing.  And more with my better-half.  

I wish that skiing was the only consideration.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

On another side note. California has asked people not to charge their electric vehicles because the grid is taking a hit from the heat wave. This a few weeks after they said all vehicles need to be electric (or another unknown alternative) by 2035.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> On another side note. California has asked people not to charge their electric vehicles because the grid is taking a hit from the heat wave. This a few weeks days after they said all vehicles need to be electric (or another unknown alternative) by 2035.




Fixed it for you ST

And I don't want to think about what could happen should someone in an EV pushing to get to Tahoe or Mammoth in a storm get stranded in blizzard conditions and stuck for hours in their EV unable to move. Sure, gas powered cars can certainly run out of gas in a situation like that, however the ability to potentially give some gas from 1 car to another in a situation like that is far easier than if an EV's battery is at 0%


----------



## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

Skip electric and develop Hydrogen.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Skip electric and develop Hydrogen.


Worked well in the Hindenburg


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

i'm going to portland oregon for 5 days in October and it was significantly cheaper to rent and insure a tesla3 on turo vs any options from mainstream rental agencies, so i will have my first fully ev experience soon


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm going to portland oregon for 5 days in October and it was significantly cheaper to rent and insure a tesla3 on turo vs any options from mainstream rental agencies, so i will have my first fully ev experience soon


Your hotel have hookups?


----------



## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Worked well in the Hindenburg


but I'm not in the market for a Zepplin.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Your hotel have hookups?



airbnb. i presume a crunchy city like portland should have lots of public charge available


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

hopefully your rented Tesla doesn't get stolen or vandalized.  I've heard Portland is approaching 3rd world city...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> hopefully your rented Tesla doesn't get stolen or vandalized.  I've heard Portland is approaching 3rd world city...



that gets a big fat yawn from me as a NYC person who has watched the media sensationalize the conditions in my fair city for the past 2 years.

i anticipate good coffee, good beer, good pot, good restaurants, people with flannel and tattoos, and some homeless in the downtown center. no biggie.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

That was from someone I know who went through there recently.  I too figured it was over blown and still thi k said person may be over blowing it.

Many suburban folk are afraid of thw city


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

yea that aint me. the only places in America pretty much i have been where i was like 'woah what the fuck, get me out of here' were the tenderloin sf and west baltimore.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 1, 2022)

I am anti bus, anti gondola, anti any major canyons expansion of transit.  I am in the camp of "it's a 20-25 days-a-year issue, lets keep making incremental steps to make it a 10-15 days-a-year issue, and not blow up the canyons or spend tons of taxpayers money in the process"

Traffic is an issue in the canyons.  But blow that capacity up and you'd have resorts unable to cope with the demand.

My post on Pugski a week or so ago- 



> On days where parking is 100% maxed out at both Snowbird and Alta there is not enough uphill capacity (this would be without parking reservations- 100% true capacity of the lots). You'd see 15 minute lines at Collins, Sugarloaf, Peruvian, Gadzoom, Gad2, Little Cloud, and of course the tram. At Snowbird the issue is much more severe, IMO.
> 
> It's exceedingly unlikely that terrain is ever expanded again at either resort. Supposedly Alta's Grizzly Gulch terrain is still a potential play but I personally don't think it's likely and it's very far away should it ever be built. On paper, both resorts have a ton of terrain and few lifts servicing it. However, both mountains have some of the worst pinch-points/intersections I have ever experienced... a fact frequently forgotten due to the higher level of skiers at both resorts and their reputation for powder seekers- not on-trail enthusiasts. This has been another issue with Ikon- people who just want to rip groomers are coming to AltaBird and these resorts are probably the worst in the country for groomers. Any kind of lift upgrades would further worsen these pinch points.
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)




----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I am anti bus, anti gondola, anti any major canyons expansion of transit.  I am in the camp of "it's a 20-25 days-a-year issue, lets keep making incremental steps to make it a 10-15 days-a-year issue, and not blow up the canyons or spend tons of taxpayers money in the process"
> 
> Traffic is an issue in the canyons.  But blow that capacity up and you'd have resorts unable to cope with the demand.
> 
> My post on Pugski a week or so ago-


Damn, were you a witness to that fatality at Alta last season?  That sucked.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> One opinion:  https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2022/09/01/building-gondola-ski-resorts-is/



I think an intentionally uninformed opinion given his major crux is to, _"exhaust all the cheaper options"_ given the bus options (all in) really aren't much cheaper at all per the economic analysis, and he surely must know that given his research on the subject.  Not to mention he shoe-horned in the standard "herp derp, there wont be any skiing 5 minutes from now anyway because Global Warming", ridiculousness.  Then he quotes Save Our Canyon at the end, so it's pretty clear what he's all about.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea that aint me. the only places in America pretty much i have been where i was like 'woah what the fuck, get me out of here' were the tenderloin sf and west baltimore.



Surely you dont feel safe walking alone at 2am in Brownsville or B.S.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2022)

drjeff said:


> the ability to potentially give some gas from 1 car to another in a situation like that is far easier than if an EV's battery is at 0%



Eventually this wont be a problem, the current high-end EVs (LCID, etc..) have the ability to charge other cars.  Give it time & that will be a standard feature on every EV made.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Damn, were you a witness to that fatality at Alta last season?  That sucked.



I did not see it- I can see how the wording in my post would lead to that confusion, though.  But I did hear a lot of details about it though.  Absolutely gruesome/horrific. It's staying with me, that's for sure.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Surely you dont feel safe walking alone at 2am in Brownsville or B.S.



Surely you haven’t been to bed stuy in a decade or so based on that comment. 

Many of my friends live in bed stuy. We do things in bed stuy day and night and late night. We walk. We hang out outside. We don’t carry guns. We don’t get murdered.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I did not see it- I can see how the wording in my post would lead to that confusion, though.  But I did hear a lot of details about it though.  Absolutely gruesome/horrific. It's staying with me, that's for sure.


Yeah, I was hoping that you did not see it.  

Your comments about the groomers are spot on.  Add to it that for a good portion of last season the snow sucked, so more folks were on the main runs instead of exploring the off-piste options.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 2, 2022)

Killington does everything right. 

 Running K1 off of cows.
Using cold air from outside for refers (no not that kind)
Heating the sidewalks going into the hotels.
Using local artists and contractors (when it's cost efficient)
The HUGE fireplaces in the lodges.
Reusing existing buildings when no longer needed. Example, the lift house at the top of Devils Fiddle.
There marketing Department is awesome, you look forward to the video ads because they are funny.
Also, cows.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Surely you haven’t been to bed stuy in a decade or so based on that comment.
> 
> Many of my friends live in bed stuy. We do things in bed stuy day and night and late night. We walk. We hang out outside. We don’t carry guns. We don’t get murdered.


Please do not call him Shirely. It's rude.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 2, 2022)

machski said:


> I get some of your points, but any resort that makes improvements and left upgrades is eyeing a bigger piece of skier/rider visits.  Anything else said by a resort that does so is mostly contrary to R&D investments.  Yes, we can point to the JHMR's as an "outlier" here, but they must be returning higher revenues even as they "limit" Ikon/MC/day ticket traffic or they would cease investing on hill (and they have most certainly not stopped that).
> SR is no exception TB.  We have no Ikon/ticket limits, traffic has backed up to the Walgreen's in town on some Saturday/Sundays and parking has maxed out before 10am on the main side, with only remote Jordan parking available.  Thankfully, with the breadth of the resort, you can still find uncrowded lifts/trails if you know when to hit certain sections.  But given the massive ongoing investments on the hill (snowmaking, while to many hasn't been obvious, is currently in the middle of a massive transformation to be fully realized next year), new Jordan 8, hopefully a new Barker next year and Merrill Hill this year, I fully expect them to be attempting to draw even more.  All this said, SR while I've been skiing their since 1990 has never been "quiet" weekends and holidays so I expect that.  And like you have seen, those peak times are often less crowded now than non blackout weekends.
> 
> Now, I don't think Maine DOT is looking to bypass Rte2 with a gondola from downtown Bethel up the backside to the top of Barker anytime soon.  Then again, our access does not require the transit of a very narrow, potentially environmentally sensitive dead end multi mile and 4000' vertical canyon that has major avalanche issues to boot.  There is valid debate on the public side of funding, especially if it will only ever just terminate in LCC.  That said, this is not the only public linkage town-mountain gondola proposal worldwide (two come to mind in NZ, one from Wanaka to Cardrona and another from Queenstown to The Remarkable).  We want sustainable transit options, this could be the way. Perhaps a bigger lean on the private side finding a private-public partnership would be more appropriate here.


Telluride as well.


----------



## machski (Sep 3, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Telluride as well.


What, I know they are discussing replacing their Gondola from town.  That lift is getting along in years and definitely in operational hours.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2022)

machski said:


> What, I know they are discussing replacing their Gondola from town.  That lift is getting along in years and definitely in operational hours.


I believe the decision was refurbish/replace.  It is cool.  FWIW they paid for it with the resort chipping in and a local sales tax.  Here the proposal is almost all state funds from the taxpayers.


----------



## machski (Sep 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I believe the decision was refurbish/replace.  It is cool.  FWIW they paid for it with the resort chipping in and a local sales tax.  Here the proposal is almost all state funds from the taxpayers.


A quick search of LiftBlog brought up an article from Nov2016 noting 3 options, all but a modest capacity increase in option 1 would likely cause costs above $15-20milliion.  Even just upgrading the cabins would likely trigger added scrutiny of tower/sheaves and tower foundations by the Colorado tram board as those newer cabins weigh considerably more than the originals and CO board would see that as a "major" design change.  Option 3 was a completely new build, possibly re-utilizing the current terminal buildings.  The article said the decision would be needed by 2027.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2022)

machski said:


> A quick search of LiftBlog brought up an article from Nov2016 noting 3 options, all but a modest capacity increase in option 1 would likely cause costs above $15-20milliion.  Even just upgrading the cabins would likely trigger added scrutiny of tower/sheaves and tower foundations by the Colorado tram board as those newer cabins weigh considerably more than the originals and CO board would see that as a "major" design change.  Option 3 was a completely new build, possibly re-utilizing the current terminal buildings.  The article said the decision would be needed by 2027.


Yep.  The latest on it:  https://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_627294ba-ecfb-11ec-8854-53cd462eca4e.html


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 3, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Surely you haven’t been to bed stuy in a decade or so based on that comment.
> 
> Many of my friends live in bed stuy. We do things in bed stuy day and night and late night. We walk. We hang out outside. We don’t carry guns. We don’t get murdered.



Anecdotally, that's a nice thing to hear.  Statistically and factually, however, the violent crime rate in Bed-Stuy is a bit > than 1%, placing it among the more dangerous places in all of America.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 4, 2022)




----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that gets a big fat yawn from me as a NYC person who has watched the media sensationalize the conditions in my fair city for the past 2 years.
> 
> i anticipate good coffee, good beer, good pot, good restaurants, people with flannel and tattoos, and some homeless in the downtown center. no biggie.



Never been to Portland, but I've been working most of the summer in NYC.  I spend 2-4 days a week down there and most of the time stay at the Sheraton downtown Brooklyn.  Rates are typically decent, and there's decent enough places to eat in that neighborhood plus the subway station is convenient. 

I've taken to using the Subway between hospitals all over Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan because parking is such a racket.  Take Maimonides as an example.  6000 employees and only a 500 space garage.  Unless you are an obvious patient, the only way you're getting a parking spot there after 8AM is if you grease the palms of the parking attendant.  My company doesn't reimburse that $10, so most of the time I arrive by Subway.

Ever since starting this position I have family and friends constantly commenting on how unsafe the subway is and NYC in general.  The fears seem completely overblown.


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Never been to Portland, but I've been working most of the summer in NYC.  I spend 2-4 days a week down there and most of the time stay at the Sheraton downtown Brooklyn.  Rates are typically decent, and there's decent enough places to eat in that neighborhood plus the subway station is convenient.
> 
> I've taken to using the Subway between hospitals all over Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan because parking is such a racket.  Take Maimonides as an example.  6000 employees and only a 500 space garage.  Unless you are an obvious patient, the only way you're getting a parking spot there after 8AM is if you grease the palms of the parking attendant.  My company doesn't reimburse that $10, so most of the time I arrive by Subway.
> 
> Ever since starting this position I have family and friends constantly commenting on how unsafe the subway is and NYC in general.  The fears seem completely overblown.


The family and friends of Michelle Go (and millions of other crime victims) might disagree? You couldn't pay me to go to NYC - overblown fears-or-not.

Woman Pushed Onto Subway Tracks ‘Never Saw’ Her Attacker - The New York Times                                                                                                     
Woman Pushed Onto Subway Tracks ‘Never Saw’ Her Attacker​“She was just the person who did everything right,” a neighbor said of Michelle Go, who died on Saturday when a homeless man pushed her in front of an R train.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> The family and friends of Michelle Go (and millions of other crime victims) might disagree? You couldn't pay me to go to NYC - overblown fears-or-not.
> 
> Woman Pushed Onto Subway Tracks ‘Never Saw’ Her Attacker - The New York Times
> Woman Pushed Onto Subway Tracks ‘Never Saw’ Her Attacker​“She was just the person who did everything right,” a neighbor said of Michelle Go, who died on Saturday when a homeless man pushed her in front of an R train.



I'm aware of that incident and others like it.   They are extraordinarily rare.

Do you no longer travel to Conway because 3 people were murdered in the Army Navy store there?






						Man Arraigned On Murder Charges In Conway Shootings
					

A man charged with shooting and killing three people at a Conway military surplus store was arraigned on three counts of first-degree murder Friday. Video | Watch Arraignment




					www.wmur.com
				




3 plus million people a day use the trains around NYC, almost all of them without incident.


----------



## skiur (Sep 4, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> I'll take my chances in Conway over NYC any day. Plus, why would I go to NYC when most of the people that live there support politicians that think I'm a racist and semi-facist and a danger to democracy?



You obviously have no idea of what NYC is like.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 4, 2022)

lol Jesus fucking Christ.

Don’t worry. You’re not missing anything. Stay where you are. You’ll just get all murdered up down here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol Jesus fucking Christ.
> 
> Don’t worry. You’re not missing anything. Stay where you are. You’ll just get all murdered up down here.


I wonder what the murder rate is on a bus vs. a 3S gondola?


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm aware of that incident and others like it.   They are extraordinarily rare.
> 
> Do you no longer travel to Conway because 3 people were murdered in the Army Navy store there?
> 
> ...


Google Search
CONWAY — Five years ago Monday, a horrific shooting at the Army Barracks store in North Conway rocked the Mount Washington Valley. The shooter, Michael Woodbury, then 31 of Windham, Maine, has been sentenced to prison for the rest of his life for murdering three people. 

At least Woodbury won't be able to kill again.

Unlike Martial Simon:

"In 2017, the Times said records show Simon told a psychiatrist at a state-run hospital it was only a matter of time before he shoved a woman onto train tracks, but he was still released soon after."

"The homeless man charged with killing a young New York City woman months ago when he pushed her in front of an oncoming subway train in Times Square was ruled not mentally fit to stand trial and will be sent to a psychiatric facility indefinitely following a Tuesday court hearing."

Like I said, I'll take Conway, NH over NYC any day.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 4, 2022)

okey dokey, tucker


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Google Search
> CONWAY — Five years ago Monday, a horrific shooting at the Army Barracks store in North Conway rocked the Mount Washington Valley. The shooter, Michael Woodbury, then 31 of Windham, Maine, has been sentenced to prison for the rest of his life for murdering three people.
> 
> At least Woodbury won't be able to kill again.
> ...



I get it.  You fear many urban areas that are heavily populated with immigrants who live a little bit differently than you. We've had this conversation before. You've even said there are neighborhoods in  Manchester, NH that you are nervous going through.

Agree with Krusty on the Tucker comment.  You've gulped up that made for TV fear the city propaganda big time. 

Being afraid of NYC is just silly.  And unfortunate because it's without question the most fascinating city in our country.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 6, 2022)

Jesus Christ……stay inside everyone! It’s dangerous out there. I can’t believe anyone goes anywhere anymore. I haven’t left my house since the Y2K scare, those computers could crash any day now sending us straight into a post apocalyptic Mad Max world scenario where gangs of murder hornets mad on the reefer run the streets with a savage attack on our Christmas traditions.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 6, 2022)

Risked my damned life for this Pastrami Sandwich from Katz tonight


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Risked my damned life for this Pastrami Sandwich from Katz tonight


You bought a sandwich from Rob Katz?  SHAME.


----------



## kendo (Sep 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder what the murder rate is on a bus vs. a 3S gondola?



Evidently, murderers don't ride gondolas...

in BCC, (big crime canyon) NYC the murder rate is 0 for 26M+ riders on the Roosevelt Island Tram since 1976.

(only on CSI is there a murder on the tram
)


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 6, 2022)

kendo said:


> (only on CSI is there a murder on the tram
> )


Wrong!!!









						Nighthawks (1981 film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## x10003q (Sep 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Risked my damned life for this Pastrami Sandwich from Katz tonight


So Brave with a capital B.
When we lived in Union Sq we would walk down to Katz's at least once a month for sandwich.


			https://katzsdelicatessen.com/


----------



## machski (Sep 7, 2022)

A new product from Dopp just in time for the LCC Gondola consideration:









						Doppelmayr Introduces TRI-Line Three Cable System
					

A Swiss ski resort will become the launch customer for a new hybrid ropeway design by Doppelmayr. TRI-Line (pronouned “treeline”) will combine the benefits of a tri-cable 3S ropeway wit…




					liftblog.com


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 7, 2022)

8000 PPH maximum with 8 standing. With only seated riders, 4800 PPH per Doppelmeyer's published numbers. 

What's the desired hourly ridership during peak times?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

machski said:


> A new product from Dopp just in time for the LCC Gondola consideration:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw that as well.


IceEidolon said:


> 8000 PPH maximum with 8 standing. With only seated riders, 4800 PPH per Doppelmeyer's published numbers.
> 
> What's the desired hourly ridership during peak times?


I don't know if they have gotten that far yet.  Basically it was an administrative review and they don't have the $$$ so it is up to the legislature to accept it and fund it.

$500 mill seems like a ton of change for a lift that will really only operate winter weekends and winter holidays and sit idle the rest of the time.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 7, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> 8000 PPH maximum with 8 standing. With only seated riders, 4800 PPH per Doppelmeyer's published numbers.
> 
> What's the desired hourly ridership during peak times?



Are you asking for the LCC gondola?  Roughly 3,200-4,00pph is what has been published by UDOT and Gondola Works.  It's a decent capacity.  I'd expect the lines to be pretty bad between 8am and 9am but we will see.


----------



## machski (Sep 7, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> 8000 PPH maximum with 8 standing. With only seated riders, 4800 PPH per Doppelmeyer's published numbers.
> 
> What's the desired hourly ridership during peak times?


I would think mostly just seated, assuming many will bring boot bags or larger backpacks with additional gear for the day with them.  They will need the floor space for that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 7, 2022)

How many people ski at the Bird and Alta on peak days?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> How many people ski at the Bird and Alta on peak days?


ss20 can speak to Alta. 

I believe that between the two areas they can handle about 5000 cars. I may be off though.

As to Snowbird, it’s really hard to tell because they have the hotels, some people taking the bus, some people crossing over from Alta, and of course daytrippers who are parking in the lot. From what I am seeing they are very bullish about increasing the number of people on the slopes in order to increase revenue.  Lines are much longer than my first 5-6 years in LCC.

Here is also an interesting piece of hindsight. About five or six years ago Snowbird was working on their Mary Ellen expansion. At one time they were considering adding a separate base area so that people could access Snowbird from American Fork Canyon.

Obviously people in Utah County were pissed about it because they were concerned about – – wait for it – – an increase in traffic in that area. So Snowbird quietly got rid of the base area plan and now has focused on LCC as the only access point.

 As much as they were revving to get going on Mary Ellen about five years ago, nothing has really been done other than taking out the Hillary Step and grading a cat traverse over to the pass just above the Bookends.  In talking with folks who have knowledge they said that Mary Ellen was shelved until access was addressed.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 8, 2022)

If they put the gondola in would they limit vehicle travel up. As others have mentioned people bring a lot of shit. Think of a family getting on the gondola with all their shit. Kids carrying their boots and skis. It is a pain enough forgetting shit in the car but now you got the gondola to deal with. Single adults and couples are one thing families as a whole other dimension. I personally would still want to drive up on most days.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 8, 2022)

This is basically how Breckenridge works unless you are staying on property, albeit the gondola ride is shorter than LCC but then its a bus ride back to the free lot


----------



## drjeff (Sep 8, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> 8000 PPH maximum with 8 standing. With only seated riders, 4800 PPH per Doppelmeyer's published numbers.
> 
> What's the desired hourly ridership during peak times?



I read what they listed, an 8000 per hour "throughput" as 4000/hr on the upside of the lift and 4000/hr on the downside of the lift, which may be the case even for this installation in this Swiss resort as in the article it mention that it is replacing a feeder lift for the resort


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 9, 2022)

at 4:20 seems to say 8,000 PPH "a direction" which tracks pretty well with a 20 person car running at almost the same frequency as a monocable 8 person car. I'm sure they're happy to build lifts with less capacity - the double sided electric doors are called out as optional, for example.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 14, 2022)

Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City calls on members to oppose gondola project
					

The Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City is urging its members to oppose a gondola in Little Cottonwood Canyon, arguing that the proposed project would harm the environment




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2022)

There are Catholics in SLC?  Who knew...


----------



## ss20 (Sep 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There are Catholics in SLC?  Who knew...



Yeah I doubt all 15 of them will move the needle on the gondola very much...


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Yeah I doubt all 15 of them will move the needle on the gondola very much...


You know what hurts the environment? Old school Catholics and their anti-contraceptive beliefs.

I bet there are a lot more Catholics than you might first think. Theres a pretty big population of Mexicans in SLC.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City calls on members to oppose gondola project
> 
> 
> The Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City is urging its members to oppose a gondola in Little Cottonwood Canyon, arguing that the proposed project would harm the environment
> ...



This is pretty shocking to me as a lifelong Catholic.  You expect the church to weigh in on major issues which affect life & death and/or major issues of mortal sin, etc.., but not state capital expenditures.  Sounds like the Diocese of SLC has "gone rogue" here with this stretch in logic.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There are Catholics in SLC?  Who knew...



Quite a few actually.  There are Catholic churches and several Catholic schools in SLC.  Ever major area of Utah that I'm aware of has a Catholic Church.  The one in Park City is crowded to the point they probably need another one somewhere in the Wasatch Back (the one in Heber City is small).  You have to remember there are a lot of Mexicans in Utah either legally or illegally, as well as plenty of Mexican-heritage Americans.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 14, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> You know what hurts the environment? Old school Catholics and their anti-contraceptive beliefs.
> 
> I bet there are a lot more Catholics than you might first think. Theres a pretty big population of Mexicans in SLC.



Oh I know...I live with them in my complex.  I'm in a bizarre 1 mile X 1 mile section of "gentrified" area by Utah standards.  I have my choice of pawn shops, check cashing, auto works, and tacos .  It's funny because you go out of this area it's back to upper-middle class medium-rise brand new apartments with boutique shops galore.  

My rent is going up "only" $165 for my next lease term then I'm getting a house around here- that's the goal at least.  $450k for a small 2bd home within 30 minutes of Alta.


----------



## jimk (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Quite a few actually.  There are Catholic churches and several Catholic schools in SLC.  Ever major area of Utah that I'm aware of has a Catholic Church.  The one in Park City is crowded to the point they probably need another one somewhere in the Wasatch Back (the one in Heber City is small).  You have to remember there are a lot of Mexicans in Utah either legally or illegally, as well as plenty of Mexican-heritage Americans.


Yeah, I agree.  I'm kind of surprised the Church took such a public stance on something like a gondola build?!?  Maybe the environmental concern is due to the Pope Francis effect  I've been in half a dozen different Catholic Churches in the SLC/Park City area over the years, but I generally go to one in Cottonwood Heights.  It's not in a Hispanic part of town.  The Catholic churches are surprisingly common.  Not as common as LDS temples, but about every 3-4 miles apart throughout the SLC suburbs.  I don't go to the one in Park City very often, but it is extremely beautiful.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is pretty shocking to me as a lifelong Catholic.  You expect the church to weigh in on major issues which affect life & death and/or major issues of mortal sin, etc.., but not state capital expenditures.  Sounds like the Diocese of SLC has "gone rogue" here with this stretch in logic.


Well, it’s not the environmental issue that seems to be their main concern. It’s spending $500 million plus on a gondola that will run a relatively few days a year when we have people living in the streets in Salt Lake City. That’s a very valid point.

People forget that a core tenant of the Catholic Church is to help those in need. My personal feelings aside, as much as I can do that, John Cumming doesn’t need $500 million of our taxpayer dollars so he could continue to lose money and make stupid decisions.  He’s not the kind of person that the Catholic diocese would think consider to be most vulnerable.  From what I understand he has enough personal wealth inherited from his dad that if he really wanted this gondola he could bankroll all of it if not most of it himself. That’s something to think about.

The homeless situation here in Salt Lake County is really bad. The rest of the state deals with those who have drug, behavioral, homelessness, or all the above by sticking them on a bus and shipping them to Salt Lake City and dumping them on our streets. Their thought is that us transplants will take care of their problem for them. That doesn’t sound very Christian to me.

As to the environmental concerns, $500+ million really does not do much to help us try to save the Great Salt Lake. If I were Alta and Snowbird I’d be really concerned about that as that is the water that ultimately makes the snowfall greater in the Cottonwood Canyons. The last few years the lake has been really low and partially as a result of that our lake effect snows are not what they used to be. That’s a huge environmental concern. Add to that is the fact that we are really going to run out of water here pretty soon based upon all the rampant growth and lack of conservation.

But yeah, let’s drop almost half $1 billion on a gondola so the two ski areas can maybe breakeven or make a little money. As much as I love skiing, and those canyons are my home and will always be in my heart, I just can’t justify that with all the other problems we have in this state.

And again for the record when this was initially proposed I was interested in the gondola as an alternative and briefly supported it until I heard about the shenanigans going on with self dealing and people trying to make money off of us taxpayers. That really made me very cynical about this project and ultimately led me to be against it.  Both of those resorts ultimately have created a lot of this problem and both of them should be expected to fix it.


----------



## urungus (Sep 15, 2022)

In other news from the Beehive state … 








						Utah police somehow involved in case of women wearing body paint
					

The body paint depicted tank tops with the university's logo on them.




					www.sfgate.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2022)

@thetrailboss for purposes of discussion.  Would you support a publicly funded Gondola network that connected all 3 areas such as one Wasatch if it eliminated cars in both Canyons except for residents or those staying in lodging at the respective resorts?

In my opinion that is a much better "public transportation" solution than just one of the canyons.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, it’s not the environmental issue that seems to be their main concern. It’s spending $500 million plus on a gondola that will run a relatively few days a year when we have people living in the streets in Salt Lake City. That’s a very valid point.
> 
> People forget that a core tenant of the Catholic Church is to help those in need. My personal feelings aside, as much as I can do that, John Cumming doesn’t need $500 million of our taxpayer dollars so he could continue to lose money and make stupid decisions.  He’s not the kind of person that the Catholic diocese would think consider to be most vulnerable.  From what I understand he has enough personal wealth inherited from his dad that if he really wanted this gondola he could bankroll all of it if not most of it himself. That’s something to think about.
> 
> ...


The homeless problem is everywhere now I think. I've noticed that they look different these days as well. Instead of the typical bearded ex vet with schizophrenia there's more well dressed families out there with young kids etc. They look like "new" homeless people. This seems to have really blown up since covid started.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 15, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> @thetrailboss for purposes of discussion.  Would you support a publicly funded Gondola network that connected all 3 areas such as one Wasatch if it eliminated cars in both Canyons except for residents or those staying in lodging at the respective resorts?
> 
> In my opinion that is a much better "public transportation" solution than just one of the canyons.



I think that would be awesome.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> The homeless problem is everywhere now I think. I've noticed that they look different these days as well. Instead of the typical bearded ex vet with schizophrenia there's more well dressed families out there with young kids etc. They look like "new" homeless people. This seems to have really blown up since covid started.


Ours is more the former with a lot of young people with issues.  Fortunately I do not see a lot of kids--that kills me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> @thetrailboss for purposes of discussion.  Would you support a publicly funded Gondola network that connected all 3 areas such as one Wasatch if it eliminated cars in both Canyons except for residents or those staying in lodging at the respective resorts?
> 
> In my opinion that is a much better "public transportation" solution than just one of the canyons.


So I was for the One Wasatch concept in the abstract but the devil is in the details.  A gondola for BCC is not really feasible because BCC is a much longer than LCC.  But I understand there are thoughts to do a leg from Alta up over into in Brighton, and another up over to Park City.  I think that is a good idea because both Canyons are dead-ends in the winter and having an alternative means of access/egress is a best practice.    

Again, I was a HUGE Snowbird fan, but now not so much (I know, no shit Sherlock).  It just shows how much things have changed there.  I don't think we should be giving them $500+ million when there are things Snowbird can do for low or no cost and there are other alternatives.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, I was a HUGE Snowbird fan, but now not so much (I know, no shit Sherlock).  It just shows how much things have changed there.  I don't think we should be giving them $500+ million when there are things Snowbird can do for low or no cost and there are other alternatives.



If Snowbird got rid of stupid free parking on weekends it'd fix a lot of current issues and bitching/moaning I hear.  That's step 1, imo.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> *The homeless situation here in Salt Lake County is really bad. The rest of the state deals with those who have drug, behavioral, homelessness, or all the above by sticking them on a bus and shipping them to Salt Lake City* and dumping them on our streets. Their thought is that us transplants will take care of their problem for them. That doesn’t sound very Christian to me.



I suspect that has far more to do with the fact SLC has way more of the infrastructure, the facilities & shelters, the volunteers, the mental health professionals, and god knows what else, than say (______) <--- insert literally any other place in Utah.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I just can’t justify that with all the other problems we have in this state.



Well what's your solution then?  Buses just aint gonna cut it unless the prognostication for growth misses so badly to the downside that the forecasters should find a new career.

Without that gondy, the only "solution" I can see is restricting access & capping skier visits, but that's not really a solution, it's a cop-out, and one which will significantly impair Utah's economy given how critical winter visits are.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well what's your solution then?  Buses just aint gonna cut it unless the prognostication for growth misses so badly to the downside that the forecasters should find a new career.
> 
> Without that gondy, the only "solution" I can see is restricting access & capping skier visits, but that's not really a solution, it's a cop-out, and one which will significantly impair Utah's economy given how critical winter visits are.


And with a limited supply on the demand the costs to ski there would become ridiculously expensive, pushing a lot of skiers out of the equation and making it a very exclusive place on everyones public lands. I mean, that's basically already happening there and a lot of other popular ski resorts.

I'm sure there are plenty of people on these sorts of ski forums that want just that but......f those guys.

Random thought- if  a part of everyones taxes sustain those public lands but these resorts are unattainable for working, middle class families wouldn't that be sort of like socialism for the wealthy? I can't get behind that. Maybe a tax funded gondola really is a better option?


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 17, 2022)

I don't think any other communities in Utah are actually paying bus fares for homeless people to send them to SLC. That sounds like some ridiculous Fox News shit. I guess I could be wrong but I haven't seen or heard anything like that. I spend more time in Utah than I do here at my home in Arizona, or I have at least for over two years now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I don't think any other communities in Utah are actually paying bus fares for homeless people to send them to SLC. That sounds like some ridiculous Fox News shit. I guess I could be wrong but I haven't seen or heard anything like that. I spend more time in Utah than I do here at my home in Arizona, or I have at least for over two years now.


Not too far off considering that Florida's Governor just paid $12 mill or something like that to send two jets with immigrants to Martha's Vineyard.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I suspect that has far more to do with the fact SLC has way more of the infrastructure, the facilities & shelters, the volunteers, the mental health professionals, and god knows what else, than say (______) <--- insert literally any other place in Utah.


That is a factor, but we don't have a lot of shelter beds.  SLC allowed developers to tear that building down and they are (slowly) replacing that bed base.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Without that gondy, the only "solution" I can see is restricting access & capping skier visits, but that's not really a solution, it's a cop-out, and one which will significantly impair Utah's economy given how critical winter visits are.


Add more busses, require parking reservations, and cap capacity.  It just can't handle the crowds. 

I went to Snowbird this morning for a Tram ride.  In 2012 I went up there in the summer almost weekly and it was always *dead.  *Plenty of parking, no cars, and maybe a couple cars on the side of the road at the hiking trailheads.  Today there were probably 100+ cars on the side of the road at White Pine Trailhead, cars here and there for climbing, and already a lot of folks at Snowbird before it even opened.  If the gondola existed *it would not be operating today *because it is winter only.  How does that make sense?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 18, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Maybe a tax funded gondola really is a better option?



They've all but said they're going to put tollbooths on the canyon, which is a form of a tax.   I imagine Alta/Snowbird must do ballpark a million days a year give or take.   Along with the resorts paying X millions upfront to have skin-in-the-game, you could temporarily take a few bucks per every visit, a few bucks from every car parked, 2% of every restaurant check, etc.... as well.  This would take years, but conceptually is the same as the tollbooths constructed to pay for roads in Jersey, the difference being of course in Jersey the politicians lied (shocking) and never removed the tolls even once the roads were long paid for.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 18, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I went to Snowbird this morning for a Tram ride. * In 2012 I went up there in the summer almost weekly and it was always* *dead.  *Plenty of parking, no cars, and maybe a couple cars on the side of the road at the hiking trailheads. * Today there were probably 100+ cars on the side of the road at White Pine Trailhead, cars here and there for climbing, and already a lot of folks at Snowbird before it even opened.*  If the gondola existed it would not be operating today because it is winter only.  How does that make sense?



Isn't it an Oktoberfest weekend at Snowbird right now?  I did Oktoberfest at Snowbird in 2018 and it was an absolutely ****show it was so packed.  So I'm not sure today is a great comp for an "everyday weekend" up there to say it's "dead" or not, though I suppose the argument could be made that crowds are crowds whatever the cause.  But that Snowbird Oktoberfest thing is just too well-loved to the point it (IMHO) impairs enjoyability somewhat.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 19, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Isn't it an Oktoberfest weekend at Snowbird right now?  I did Oktoberfest at Snowbird in 2018 and it was an absolutely ****show it was so packed.  So I'm not sure today is a great comp for an "everyday weekend" up there to say it's "dead" or not, though I suppose the argument could be made that crowds are crowds whatever the cause.  But that Snowbird Oktoberfest thing is just too well-loved to the point it (IMHO) impairs enjoyability somewhat.



Yeah today I went up/over Guardsman pass with the lady.  We were smart and went through Provo canyon and up/over Guardsman spilling into BCC.  Road construction has been causing an alternating one-way road in BCC this summer.  The line of cars waiting to go up where the traffic light was was probably 1/2 to 3/4ths of a mile long!    

I've quickly found the traffic in LCC/BCC in the summer can be almost as bad as the winter!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2022)

UDOT plans toll road in Little Cottonwood Canyon with gondola project
					

Utah's Department of Transportation plans to institute a toll on the road going up Little Cottonwood Canyon to go along with a controversial gondola project.




					www.fox13now.com
				





And of particular interest:



> Sen. Jani Iwamoto, D-Holladay, had concerns about water quality and *whether this was another way of rebooting "Ski Link," a controversial plan to link ski resorts together with trams.*
> 
> UDOT officials insisted the project would not harm water quality and *the gondola was focused on Little Cottonwood Canyon.*


----------



## Vter (Sep 22, 2022)

Sounds like the Stowe of the West…I’ve given up, it sucks too bad to deal with.

I’m back to the smaller places now, I feel sorry for the Crew out in Aspen, JH, the Bird, PC, W/B ect it’s just a PITA now. The Resorts have changed bigtime (nothing you don’t know) but it’s just not Fun 
anymore ! I’m been midweek at a smaller place now, for years. I can’t stand what corporate power has done to this sport (activity). Back East it’s a ridiculous Rich Man’s BJ. Ski-Bum ? Ya right ! If you bust your balls 2 shifts you might get a few runs in a week. It’s disgusting !

Price the small income fools out, there are plenty of upper to pay for the “thrill”. What thrill anymore…
Mega Resorts Suck !

“Fast lifts” started the problem way back when, IMHO

Powder ? It’s skies out in 2 hours, thank god I enjoy crud bust’n chop almost as much.

Peace out…snow is coming, ENJOY, Bros & Sistas !


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)




----------



## Vter (Sep 22, 2022)

Ya, Ok Krusty
I’ll try to not put you to sleep next time. 
Your everything that makes my life wonderful and why I don’t live in your shithole. Keep your attitude & SUV as far away from my Plow Truck as possible.
Oh, that’s right…you don’t want me parking in your precious parking spot !!!! After plowing since 3:00 am so you can get “1st chair” to do the “Front 4 “ AH 
 Spend A Buck, City Slicker…see ya never on the hill or Notch either side. I feel sorry for you, cause you’ll never, ever, Really know these Hills


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

lol.

dude you are so heady. can i touch you please?


----------



## skiur (Sep 22, 2022)

Vter said:


> Ya, Ok Krusty
> I’ll try to not put you to sleep next time.
> Your everything that makes my life wonderful and why I don’t live in your shithole. Keep your attitude & SUV as far away from my Plow Truck as possible.
> Oh, that’s right…you don’t want me parking in your precious parking spot !!!! After plowing since 3:00 am so you can get “1st chair” to do the “Front 4 “ AH
> Spend A Buck, City Slicker…see ya never on the hill or Notch either side. I feel sorry for you, cause you’ll never, ever, Really know these Hills



Wow, you are cool!


----------



## Vter (Sep 22, 2022)

“Thanks for all the hard work you do to make our vacation time more pleasurable” is the Cool Response !

People walk over to me at the $ gas  Diesel station and ask me how would I like my coffee and roll.

I get it All the Time, with smiles, claps and treats…but maybe not from you(s). Kisses, hugs and smiles and a little cash is the usual. 
Sometimes too much of the above and I say so. The kisses and hugs well, I’ll take it.

Just tell me who you are the next time I “shovel & chain out” your ride to or from the hill. I remember one Dude, like yourself, who On a powder morning wiped out & ditched it by “Barts”… I crawled under his OOS car chained it up, shoveled and sweated so he could make the hill. Yup, I had to ask for for a little “breakfast money” …his response “I only have cards man, follow-me up the Road and I’ll buy you a breakfast sandwich”
I don’t want your Sandwich, Man !!!

Other people I’ve pulled out are so so cool and appreciative. I think you guys are the former…next time it’s $50 bucks or wait 2-3 hours for AAA.

Signed,
Your sexy plow guy who Rips


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

ok mr plow.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 22, 2022)

Sexy plow guy? 

What exactly are we talking about here? 

Snow removal or fixing the cable?


----------



## djd66 (Sep 22, 2022)

Vter said:


> “I only have cards man, follow-me up the Road and I’ll buy you a breakfast sandwich”
> I don’t want your Sandwich, Man !!!


I would suggest you get Venmo.  Personally, I don't carry cash anymore.  If someone were to pull me out in the situation you describe - it definitely would not be a breakfast sandwich - would be more like a Benjamin


----------



## skiur (Sep 22, 2022)

Vter said:


> “Thanks for all the hard work you do to make our vacation time more pleasurable” is the Cool Response !
> 
> People walk over to me at the $ gas  Diesel station and ask me how would I like my coffee and roll.
> 
> ...


Do you volunteer for this plowing or do you get paid for it?  If your not getting paid for it then yes you are doing something great and I thank you.  If your getting paid then you are just doing your job.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Sexy plow guy?
> 
> What exactly are we talking about here?
> 
> Snow removal or fixing the cable?



'you can imagine what happens next'
'he fixes the cable?'


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

'jackie treehorn treats objects like women, man'


----------



## Hawk (Sep 22, 2022)

I can understand Vter's frustrations with the industry.  The new pass structure has changed everything.  Even at sugarbush.  
It's just how he comes off with his his bravado.  I'm not sure if he is just playing it up to get people going or he is actually that over the top.  Either way I don't get the upset anymore because I can afford the game.  But I was always a working stiff that cut corners and scapped for the coin to go skiing.  I have worked at the hill, scammed day tickets, fake college pass, skinned to the upper lifts, every trick in the book.  Now that I have good stability I just pay and go.  $1,200 at 60 days is $20 a day.   Not that expensive to me.   But There will always be the very wealthy that pay for the extra benefits and piss off the locals and the more frugal people.

I guess in the end, it is what it is.  Skiing is a privilage and not a right and it is bankrolled by very wealth owners.  Sucks to be us I guess.


----------



## djd66 (Sep 22, 2022)

Personally, I really do not get the complaint about skiing being too (or more) expensive now.  Its cheaper now than it has ever been - isn't that what everyone is complaining about - passes being too cheap?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

djd66 said:


> Personally, I really do not get the complaint about skiing being too (or more) expensive now.  Its cheaper now than it has ever been - isn't that what everyone is complaining about - passes being too cheap?



redneck plow drivers are mad that flatlanders are stealing their powder. as if that hasn't been happening for decades.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2022)

It has!?!?!?


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> redneck plow drivers are mad that flatlanders are stealing their powder. as if that hasn't been happening for decades.


Snow removal is probably the worst job if you want to ski fresh snow.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2022)

Vter said:


> Sounds like the Stowe of the West…I’ve given up, it sucks too bad to deal with.
> 
> I’m back to the smaller places now, I feel sorry for the Crew out in Aspen, JH, the Bird, PC, W/B ect it’s just a PITA now. The Resorts have changed bigtime (nothing you don’t know) but it’s just not Fun
> anymore ! I’m been midweek at a smaller place now, for years. I can’t stand what corporate power has done to this sport (activity). Back East it’s a ridiculous Rich Man’s BJ. Ski-Bum ? Ya right ! If you bust your balls 2 shifts you might get a few runs in a week. It’s disgusting !
> ...


Yeah, you're right. We should go back to 1936 and a Rope Tow in Woodstock, Vermont.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

but wont someone think of his crew in jackson who can no longer make ends meet dishwashing in the graveyard shift


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2022)

Vter said:


> Ya, Ok Krusty
> I’ll try to not put you to sleep next time.
> Your everything that makes my life wonderful and why I don’t live in your shithole. Keep your attitude & SUV as far away from my Plow Truck as possible.
> Oh, that’s right…you don’t want me parking in your precious parking spot !!!! After plowing since 3:00 am so you can get “1st chair” to do the “Front 4 “ AH
> Spend A Buck, City Slicker…see ya never on the hill or Notch either side. I feel sorry for you, cause you’ll never, ever, Really know these Hills


(Kusty may correct me, but I am pretty sure that he does not frequent Stowe and the "Front 4".)


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> (Kusty may correct me, but I am pretty sure that he does not frequent Stowe and the "Front 4".)



you couldnt pay me enough to ski stowe these days. and if i did ski stowe i'd be in the notch and beyond bypass, not the front4. if i had to pick a home mountain it would be sugarbush. but i am nomadic. i also drive all night most fridays and stay in the most suspect of motels and spend $0 at the ski area. i am not the type flatlander this asshole thinks i am, but fuck him anyway


----------



## Vter (Sep 22, 2022)

skiur said:


> Do you volunteer for this plowing or do you get paid for it?  If your not getting paid for it then yes you are doing something great and I thank you.  If your getting paid then you are just doing your job.


To answer your question…I am not paid to pull you out, I’m just a guy doing his plow route = driveways now.
I put my own 4,6 and 10 wheelers out back in the day…oh ya, shit been over 25 years plowing, maybe I do know snow


----------



## Vter (Sep 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you couldnt pay me enough to ski stowe these days. and if i did ski stowe i'd be in the notch and beyond bypass, not the front4. if i had to pick a home mountain it would be sugarbush. but i am nomadic. i also drive all night most fridays and stay in the most suspect of motels and spend $0 at the ski area. i am not the type flatlander this asshole thinks i am, but fuck him anyway


Very nice…are you married or did she(s) ditch you again ?

Whatever, while your cheep-scatting though life on our dime, remember to TIp the Fool who serves you. 

I read your shitty posts for a long time, you don’t take advice & your a nasty know it all….enjoy your self-serving life, sociopath ?

You got your fan base here, why I don’t know. Enjoy life Brother, Heavens Gate is waiting to evaluate yoor skiing abilities, soul and your General “Good Person” persona. See ya around…I’m well know too. KRUSTY THE KLOWN

Why  ?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2022)

thanks for finally joining the conversation you fucking redneck. you're surely making great contributions to the discourse.

cheap-scatting is what people pay to do to your wife.

cheap-skating is staying in the rodeway inn in rutland.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 25, 2022)

I guess the snow can't fly soon enough.

Hang in there people it won't be long now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> (Kusty may correct me, but I am pretty sure that he does not frequent Stowe and the "Front 4".)



I am pretty sure there's no way in hell he drives an SUV. 

This thread got freaking weird though. lol


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 28, 2022)

Cheap scatting?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I am pretty sure there's no way in hell he drives an SUV.
> 
> This thread got freaking weird though. lol



why would i not drive an SUV? i need awd and room in the back for skis. i have a Nissan rogue sport. its a crossover SUV. a pretty standard unfussy reliable vehicle that isn't too big or too small.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> why would i not drive an SUV? i need awd and room in the back for skis. i have a Nissan rogue sport. its a crossover SUV. a pretty standard unfussy reliable vehicle that isn't too big or too small.



I assumed you'd think they are evil, gas-guzzling, earth wreckers.  But I dont really consider a Rogue Sport an SUV.  After SUVs got popular everything started being called an SUV, even tiny station wagons with AWD.  For instance, my wife drives a Subaru Crosstrek = same thing, I dont really consider that an "SUV" either even though that's what Subaru classifies it as, but it's a subjective term.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 28, 2022)

SUV=Sport Utility Vehicle  

Not sure why you wouldn't consider a Crosstrek or a Rouge an SUV.  You can use them for many different uses and of course they are a vehicle.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I assumed you'd think they are evil, gas-guzzling, earth wreckers.  But I dont really consider a Rogue Sport an SUV.  After SUVs got popular everything started being called an SUV, even tiny station wagons with AWD.  For instance, my wife drives a Subaru Crosstrek = same thing, I dont really consider that an "SUV" either even though that's what Subaru classifies it as, but it's a subjective term.



 + 

big ol eye roll plus yawn on that one.

i wouldnt want a ford expedition of some shit because they are hard to park on city streets and are a horrible value for gas and i am a household of 2. i understand why a family of 6 would have a big ass truck, i guess. i get 27mpg in my rogue, its good enough and it suits my needs for ski transport. nissan calls it a subcompact SUV, other companies call them crossover SUVs. i learned how to drive in my mom's old expedition, thing was a beast.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 28, 2022)

Bombshell news out of the UTA today.... 





In a major move, UTA to sharply cut back bus service in three counties, and it’s going to affect skiers​A severe shortage of bus drivers is forcing the Utah Transit Authority to cut service along 20 routes across three counties.



www.sltrib.com


> This winter, skiers won’t have access to bus route 953, the line that runs from Midvale Fort Union Station to Snowbird and Alta. Service between Salt Lake City and Park City also will be scaled back.
> 
> AD
> Nathan Rafferty, president of Ski Utah, said in a written statement that his organization and its partner resorts were disappointed to hear of the reduced service so close to wintertime.
> ...


Details on the UTA website -





__





						Ski Service
					






					www.rideuta.com
				




I can't believe they're pulling this sh!t 7 weeks before opening day. I'm sure there's a ton of vacationers and resort employees that were relying on the 953 and the lesser 901 routes. Busses running at 30 minute intervals when they were at 15 minute before and still jam-packed. Unfreakingbelievable. Shot in the arm to tourism here. Meanwhile I've been on the TRAX system 12-15 times this year and I've never been on a train car even 1/3rd full unless it's a special event.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means but this is very fishy given the gondola vs bussing debate happening right now in LCC. These routes are busy with high ridership AND they get funding from the resorts. Totally out of the blue and very little time to re-plan vacations or housing situations.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2022)

You are not using shot in the arm correctly…
something that has a sudden and positive effect on something, providingencouragement


----------



## jimk (Sep 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Bombshell news out of the UTA today....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, more like a shot in the head for bus riding tourists and even more so for locals.

This is news to me.  Sorry to hear about the demise of the 953 line.  That was a convenient alternative for me to travel up/down LCC, even if I drove myself instead of riding the bus 95% of the time. Hopefully, they find some drivers to reinstate 953 during the prime 2 or 3 months of ski season? Absent the 953 line, if I wanted to catch a 994 bus I'd want to park over at that lot they shut down at the base of LCC.  I wonder if they will reopen that for people that want to catch a 994 bus up from there?


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Bombshell news out of the UTA today....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They aren’t pulling any shit man, the employee shortage in Utah is insane right now. Everyone is struggling. Ive spent more time in Utah for work over the last 2.5 years than I have at my home here in Flagstaff and every business can barely keep their head above water. Many have cut their business hours in half.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 28, 2022)

jimk said:


> Yeah, more like a shot in the head for bus riding tourists and even more so for locals.
> 
> This is news to me.  Sorry to hear about the demise of the 953 line.  That was a convenient alternative for me to travel up/down LCC, even if I drove myself instead of riding the bus 95% of the time. Hopefully, they find some drivers to reinstate 953 during the prime 2 or 3 months of ski season? Absent the 953 line, if I wanted to catch a 994 bus I'd want to park over at that lot they shut down at the base of LCC.  I wonder if they will reopen that for people that want to catch a 994 bus up from there?



I doubt that lot is coming back for a bus stop as it regularly fills up now with just people hitchhiking and carpooling.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2022)

What's the pay and benefits for a bus driver in SLC?


----------



## cdskier (Sep 28, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> What's the pay and benefits for a bus driver in SLC?



Here's the pay per their job posting...it simply says benefits are "incredible" in the job description but doesn't detail what they are...


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 28, 2022)

Shit, McDonalds starts at 20 an hr now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Here's the pay per their job posting...it simply says benefits are "incredible" in the job description but doesn't detail what they are...
> View attachment 54817


They can’t get drivers.  It is a hard job.  The clientele suck.  The agency is also constantly under public and political scrutiny. Morale is low.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> They can’t get drivers.  It is a hard job.  The clientele suck.  The agency is also constantly under public and political scrutiny. Morale is low.



I'm not surprised by any of that. For comparison, here's what NJ Transit is offering bus drivers out here:

_Starting hourly rate of $23.21 per hour with top rate of $33.99 per hour_

I don't know enough about UT to know how the cost of living out there compares to NJ.


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 29, 2022)

Even if average cost per bed is lower, if there's no availability your available pool of labor is tiny.


----------



## teleo (Sep 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Bombshell news out of the UTA today....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Arrg.  Count me in as one of those tourists potentially affected by this.

My plan was to stay in Residence Inn in Cottonwood Heights for 9 days solo in Feb before meeting friends at a condo at Alta for 5 days. Thought this worked well as both the 972 and 953 stop right near the hotel so I can get to Solitude/Brighton (never been to either) and Alta/Bird to make sure I use all 7 Ikon days because I love Alta/Bird.  Figured being closer to the canyon roads rather than near Midvale Fort Union would save some time on the bus.

For those of you with more experience out there.  Is this plan as good as I thought it was?  Will the busses be full by the time they get to Cottonwood Heights?  Wondering if I should stay closer to Midvale to be able to catch the 972 and 994 where they start.  Any speculation as to if any of these cuts will be reversed?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 29, 2022)

teleo said:


> Arrg.  Count me in as one of those tourists potentially affected by this.
> 
> My plan was to stay in Residence Inn in Cottonwood Heights for 9 days solo in Feb before meeting friends at a condo at Alta for 5 days. Thought this worked well as both the 972 and 953 stop right near the hotel so I can get to Solitude/Brighton (never been to either) and Alta/Bird to make sure I use all 7 Ikon days because I love Alta/Bird.  Figured being closer to the canyon roads rather than near Midvale Fort Union would save some time on the bus.
> 
> For those of you with more experience out there.  Is this plan as good as I thought it was?  Will the busses be full by the time they get to Cottonwood Heights?  Wondering if I should stay closer to Midvale to be able to catch the 972 and 994 where they start.  Any speculation as to if any of these cuts will be reversed?



i dont have a lot of utah bus experience but i did do it once and stayed in a real piece of shit motel 6 in midvale, but i waltzed onto an empty bus that got totally full, even on weekdays, by the park n ride stops


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Bombshell news out of the UTA today....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going to say it seemed like one hell of a coincidence that the ski routes are being cut while folks are pushing for a gondola.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 29, 2022)

teleo said:


> Arrg.  Count me in as one of those tourists potentially affected by this.
> 
> My plan was to stay in Residence Inn in Cottonwood Heights for 9 days solo in Feb before meeting friends at a condo at Alta for 5 days. Thought this worked well as both the 972 and 953 stop right near the hotel so I can get to Solitude/Brighton (never been to either) and Alta/Bird to make sure I use all 7 Ikon days because I love Alta/Bird.  Figured being closer to the canyon roads rather than near Midvale Fort Union would save some time on the bus.
> 
> For those of you with more experience out there.  Is this plan as good as I thought it was?  Will the busses be full by the time they get to Cottonwood Heights?  Wondering if I should stay closer to Midvale to be able to catch the 972 and 994 where they start.  Any speculation as to if any of these cuts will be reversed?





KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont have a lot of utah bus experience but i did do it once and stayed in a real piece of shit motel 6 in midvale, but i waltzed onto an empty bus that got totally full, even on weekdays, by the park n ride stops



This is the norm on my route, the 994 Historic Sandy to Alta.  Always very quiet at the first couple stops.  Packed in by the CVS park n ride with riders sometimes turned away.  This is midweek, and with the 15 minute intervals, BTW.  

The Historic Sandy Station which I walk to from my apartment, for the record...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

ss20 said:


> This is the norm on my route, the 994 Historic Sandy to Alta.  Always very quiet at the first couple stops.  Packed in by the CVS park n ride with riders sometimes turned away.  This is midweek, and with the 15 minute intervals, BTW.
> 
> The Historic Sandy Station which I walk to from my apartment, for the record...


So without 953, how many runs are now left up LCC and the time intervals (30 minutes or so it sound like)?


----------



## ss20 (Sep 30, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So without 953, how many runs are now left up LCC and the time intervals (30 minutes or so it sound like)?



With the 994 and 953 at 15 minute intervals there were 8 busses going up every hour.  Now there will be 2 busses- just coming from the 994.

With the parking reservations and the limited bed base in the canyon the busses were the only item that had essentially limitless capacity for getting people up here.  I think you will see a slight but noticeable decrease in visitation this winter because of that, at least on the busy days when the lots are full.  Here's my math-

8 busses per hour with 30 people per bus for 3 hours- the busy time of 7am-10am... 720 skiers going up canyon.
2 busses per hour, 30 people per bus, same 3 hours- 180 skiers going up canyon. 

Probably not noticeable at Snowbird but as you know Alta is very sensitive to relatively small changes in skier volume with just the 5 lifts.  Even if we're talking a few hundred people. 

I am concerned for powder days as the bus was a way for people to get to the mountain without having to take ill-equipped cars up there.  Now how many people say "f it" and try driving front wheel drive sedans up the canyon?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

ss20 said:


> With the 994 and 953 at 15 minute intervals there were 8 busses going up every hour.  Now there will be 2 busses- just coming from the 994.


Whoa.  That is huge.


ss20 said:


> With the parking reservations and the limited bed base in the canyon the busses were the only item that had essentially limitless capacity for getting people up here.  I think you will see a slight but noticeable decrease in visitation this winter because of that, at least on the busy days when the lots are full.  Here's my math-
> 
> 8 busses per hour with 30 people per bus for 3 hours- the busy time of 7am-10am... 720 skiers going up canyon.
> 2 busses per hour, 30 people per bus, same 3 hours- 180 skiers going up canyon.
> ...


Agreed.  There is now going to be more traffic.


----------



## teleo (Sep 30, 2022)

Thanks kusty and ss.  I figured I was before the big park and drive so I'd be OK.  Now I'm worried this could turn into a PITA, especially for Alta/Bird.  If I want to use marriot points, I don't see much of a better option.  I guess I hope they find a better bus solution, or take the hotel shuttle or bus/trax to fort union or historic sandy.  I guess I could hop on the 972 going the wrong direction in the morning and just stay on it to get to Brighton/Solitude. God I hope they don't screw this up so badly.


----------



## jimk (Sep 30, 2022)

Just got an email from Snowbird:  The plan released earlier this week eliminates route 953 (Midvale Fort Union Station to Snowbird/Alta) and reduces route 994 (Historic Sandy Station to Snowbird/Alta) from 15- to 30-minute intervals. We are working with UTA to hopefully reduce the frequency of 953 and not eliminate it altogether. We will keep everyone updated as these discussions continue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

jimk said:


> Just got an email from Snowbird:  The plan released earlier this week eliminates route 953 (Midvale Fort Union Station to Snowbird/Alta) and reduces route 994 (Historic Sandy Station to Snowbird/Alta) from 15- to 30-minute intervals. We are working with UTA to hopefully reduce the frequency of 953 and not eliminate it altogether. We will keep everyone updated as these discussions continue.


The comments on FB in response to this are pretty interesting to say the least….


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2022)

Split Salt Lake County Council votes to condemn gondola plan with new resolution
					

During a work session Tuesday afternoon, the county council voted 5-4 to approve a resolution condemning the plan to build a gondola through Little Cottonwood Canyon.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## mbedle (Oct 5, 2022)

What I find interesting about the EIS is the common denominator for each alternatives' costs. Basically, all of the alternatives include 99 million for mobil hubs (the cog alternative and La Caille Gondala are only 56 million for parking), 62 million for Wasatch Blvd widening, 86 million for snow sheds in LCC (the cog alternative is 250 million for snow sheds), 5 million tolling, 5.8 million trailhead parking and 0.82 million for noise mitigation. So they are basically looking at a 258 million base budget no matter what approach they end up taking. So if you are looking for the cheapest approach above the base budget you are stuck with enhanced bus service from the mobility hubs and no bus lane in LCC. That would run around 96 million above its base budget of 258 million. It was also interesting to note that the tolling approach was looking at only collecting the toll at the resorts, so it would only apply to skiers and hikers that want to go that far up the canyon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2022)

Opinion: Why spend more than $500M when this option exists?
					

UDOT may soon recommend an expensive and environmentally harmful gondola system to relieve skier traffic up Little Cottonwood Canyon. A better, cheaper and more effective way exists, and it doesn’t involve doing nothing.




					www.deseret.com


----------



## IceEidolon (Oct 29, 2022)

I'm generally a proponent of electrified public transit, but I think that proposal shoots itself in the foot by proposing electric busses. 

The trouble with busses apart from "it's steep as heck" is that each bus needs a trained driver. If you buy and staff the capacity for your worst days, you'll have a lot of equipment not being used on slower days - and there's already trouble hiring enough qualified bus drivers. The interem solution is going to need to boost bus capacity substantially.

The big benefit to a tram as I see it, once built, is it has very low staffing costs compared to a bus system where every vehicle has a driver.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2022)

My prediction:

1)  The gondola eventually gets killed (perhaps after "winning" the choice & it being stated it will 100% go forth, but DOA at some point in the future, possibly during the interim bus plan, which will superficially appear successful).

2) They go forward with some completely inefficient bus system which is doomed from day one, but will initially seem like it is working (because it will initially due to its solving the current capacity problem as opposed to the terminal capacity problem).

3) The financial planners & demographers were mathematically correct all along (yes, I'm biased here) & hoards of people keep moving to both SLC & the Wasatch Back.  The demographics of the area keep increasing, the roads become overwhelmed.

4) At some point it's (GASP) realized in (probably) 2033 that the "math dorks" were correct back in 2021, and this is getting really bad and it's totally unworkable and wow, what a cluster**** life is here now.

5) It's so bad it negatively impacts tourism in a meaningful way.

6)  A gondola gets approved for construction in 2036.


----------



## bigbob (Oct 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> My prediction:
> 
> 1)  The gondola eventually gets killed (perhaps after "winning" the choice & it being stated it will 100% go forth, but DOA at some point in the future, possibly during the interim bus plan, which will superficially appear successful).
> 
> ...


By 2036 we will be transporting our bodies like the Sci Fi movies in the 60's!


----------



## machski (Nov 1, 2022)

Wow, hearing Brian Head will be opening for the season Friday.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 3, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, hearing Brian Head will be opening for the season Friday.


It's dumping there right now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I don't think any other communities in Utah are actually paying bus fares for homeless people to send them to SLC. That sounds like some ridiculous Fox News shit. I guess I could be wrong but I haven't seen or heard anything like that. I spend more time in Utah than I do here at my home in Arizona, or I have at least for over two years now.


Turns out my idea was not as crazy as it sounded. Except the community is outside the Wasatch Front:









						Are homeless people being sent to Salt Lake City from Wyoming?
					

People experiencing homelessness in Wyoming are reportedly being sent to Salt Lake City as winter approaches, leaving the city responsible for taking care of another state's homeless problem.




					www.fox13now.com
				












						Jackson sends some homeless to Salt Lake City
					

CORRECTION: This version of the article corrects a significant error. Teton County Circuit Judge James Radda did not write into release orders that a man should take a bus to




					www.jhnewsandguide.com
				




This is exactly my sentiment:



> Carl Moore, co-founder of Salt Lake City organization OUR’s — Our Unsheltered Relatives — said if Jackson and other towns like Las Vegas are sending their homeless to Salt Lake City, those places should be contributing funds to Salt Lake City’s resource centers.











						Did a Wyoming judge order homeless people in Jackson to get on bus to Salt Lake City?
					

A Teton County judge in Wyoming has reportedly ordered some chronically unhoused people in Jackson to get on a bus to Salt Lake City, which a Jackson police official said has “more resources,” according to a news article by the Jackson Hole News & Guide.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2022)

Sounds like Vancouver is pulling itself from the running for the 2030 games.  SLC get ready, that makes them all but certainly yours.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Sounds like Vancouver is pulling itself from the running for the 2030 games.  SLC get ready, that makes them all but certainly yours.


Isn’t Japan still in the running?


----------



## jimk (Nov 11, 2022)

With early snow, comes early fanatics, stole this info from a post on Ski Talk by GregK:

Have seen a few posts online today (11/11/22) of the traffic jams heading up to the hills this morning and a few videos of the Solitude, UT line ups. Picture is about 2/3 of the lift line.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 11, 2022)

The above is an extreme outlier.  Neither Brighton or solitude required reservations, solitude isn't charging for parking, the ski bus isn't running, and soli/Brighton are the only games in town with 5 lifts total between them.  S-H-I-T-S-H-O-W

I am going to try Sunday to one of them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2022)

jimk said:


> With early snow, comes early fanatics, stole this info from a post on Ski Talk by GregK:
> 
> Have seen a few posts online today (11/11/22) of the traffic jams heading up to the hills this morning and a few videos of the Solitude, UT line ups. Picture is about 2/3 of the lift line.
> View attachment 55015


As I have said before, IKON'T understand why.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2022)

'Perfect storm' causes long lines, traffic troubles leading to Utah ski resorts
					

Visitors heading to some of Utah's ski resorts on Friday experienced the flipside of the excitement over opening day.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2022)

And on topic.....









						Public comments show majority of people against Gondola in Little Cottonwood Canyon
					

After a long study and public comment period, UDOT announced in August that they prefer a Gondola to alleviate traffic in Little Cottonwood Canyon.This has caus




					kutv.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2022)

ss20 said:


> The above is an extreme outlier.  Neither Brighton or solitude required reservations, solitude isn't charging for parking, the ski bus isn't running, and soli/Brighton are the only games in town with 5 lifts total between them.  S-H-I-T-S-H-O-W
> 
> I am going to try Sunday to one of them.


My report from Brighton is very positive for today. As usual, undersell and overdeliver. They advertised two, maybe three lifts, but actually had FOUR lifts running (including Crest) and about 30 trails. Conditions were almost midwinter in places. Be careful because some of the main runs have snowmaking equipment and some whales that need to be groomed. Reports were that the glades were in play and good, but I did not want to destroy myself or my skis on the first lift-served day. Solitude had 3 lifts and about 11 trails from what I saw. Parking lot was jammed and cars were EVERYWHERE on 190. Lots of Brighton passholders commented about the shitshow crowds at Solitude and the cars being parked on the road slowing traffic. But very positive vibes at Brighton. Best opening weekend skiing I have seen.

I know that Amber was very excited to open Solitude early, but they were not at all prepared for the major crush of skiers and riders. I get that no bussing was SOMEWHAT a problem, but anyone who has driven up the canyons in the last two weeks would have seen LOTS of people earning turns and cars everywhere, plus I imagine that Alterra had PLENTY of data to suggest where their passholders are and that maybe something needed to be done to mitigate the crush (have a reservation system). I highly doubt that having Alta, Snowbird, and Snowbasin open next weekend are going to help Solitude because people will not want to use "their days" at these other places with limited terrain and will wait. Their usual preseason offering of Moonbeam, Apex, Link, and the triangle area in between them just cannot handle a midwinter demand of skiers and riders and IMHO is quite underwhelming and boring. Like Vail, they oversell what they have and have major issues when they cannot meet demand. In my mind, for these early season days, do a reservation system for four-hour slots in order to manage demand and set expectations accordingly so that the initial experience for folks is not terrible. All of the local news outlets covered the traffic and crowding problems. A few of my friends who have the four-letter pass went yesterday and posted on social media that while it was nice to get out Solitude was a complete mess. Tonight the traffic out was slow, largely due to Mill D folks crossing the road and trying to enter into the downhill traffic.

So as I see it  the score is Boyne/Brighton: 1; Alterra/Solitude: 0, but I am biased


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2022)

Will you be stuck in long lift lines all season at Utah ski resorts? Or was opening weekend at Solitude, Brighton a perfect storm?
					

Lift lines for opening weekend at Solitude and Brighton ski areas blew up on social media, but relief is expected as more Utah resorts start their seasons.




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2022)

Here’s what it might cost to ride the Little Cottonwood Canyon gondola
					

What would a ticket to ride the gondola cost? The answer has almost as many moving parts as a gondola itself.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## jimk (Nov 17, 2022)

Is it naive of me to assume that season pass holders or people buying a day ticket at Alta or Snowbird would ride the proposed LCC gondola as part of their pass fee?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2022)

jimk said:


> Is it naive of me to assume that season pass holders or people buying a day ticket at Alta or Snowbird would ride the proposed LCC gondola as part of their pass fee?


That is not clear. I think the calculus that these folks are using is just the overall cost per projected ride that someone has to pay.

One comparison I see the pro-gondola folks making is this idea that Europe has gondolas for transportation, why not us? Honestly, that is a bit of a false comparison. In most of Europe, they have had multimodal transportation for decades. Busses, trains, aerial lifts, cars, etc. have been public transportation options. Second, and more importantly, a lot of the ski areas themselves are NOT wholly owned by private interests looking to make a profit. Most of the ones I know of are publicly owned or at least a public/private partnership. Here, both Alta and Snowbird are privately owned and are essentially asking Utah taxpayers for a $500 million handout. The jobs they create, particularly at Snowbird, are low-paying and not really too desirable. There are just a few truly career positions at both resorts. And, arguably, the most recent traffic and congestion is due to at least one of these resorts pursuing a low-cost, high volume business model. It is a legitimate public policy question as to if taxpayers should be funding this project when considering that there may be lower cost alternatives and the benefits may be really limited.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 18, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That is not clear. I think the calculus that these folks are using is just the overall cost per projected ride that someone has to pay.
> 
> One comparison I see the pro-gondola folks making is this idea that Europe has gondolas for transportation, why not us? Honestly, that is a bit of a false comparison. In most of Europe, they have had multimodal transportation for decades. Busses, trains, aerial lifts, cars, etc. have been public transportation options. Second, and more importantly, a lot of the ski areas themselves are NOT wholly owned by private interests looking to make a profit. Most of the ones I know of are publicly owned or at least a public/private partnership. Here, both Alta and Snowbird are privately owned and are essentially asking Utah taxpayers for a $500 million handout. The jobs they create, particularly at Snowbird, are low-paying and not really too desirable. There are just a few truly career positions at both resorts. And, arguably, the most recent traffic and congestion is due to at least one of these resorts pursuing a low-cost, high volume business model. It is a legitimate public policy question as to if taxpayers should be funding this project when considering that there may be lower cost alternatives and the benefits may be really limited.


They also don't have the USA military and weapons industry economies to keep up and running. Being the worlds police force has an unfortunate price tag.

I can't say for sure but I bet thats' the big difference between us and them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> They also don't have the USA military and weapons industry economies to keep up and running. Being the worlds police force has an unfortunate price tag.
> 
> I can't say for sure but I bet thats' the big difference between us and them.


True


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 18, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> They also don't have the USA military and weapons industry economies to keep up and running. Being the worlds police force has an unfortunate price tag.
> 
> I can't say for sure but I bet thats' the big difference between us and them.


And European taxes


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 18, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> And European taxes


Or European health care etc.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 18, 2022)

I was only in Europe for 5 or six days last year, Switzerland to be exact but it seemed like their basic needs were taken care of, the "poorer" people seemed pretty darn well off and comfortable and there wasn't much crime or at least where I was. 

I doubt five days is enough to really form much of an opinion but that was my personal observation.


----------



## abc (Nov 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> a lot of the ski areas themselves are NOT wholly owned by private interests looking to make a profit. Most of the ones I know of are publicly owned or at least a public/private partnership.


Do you mind naming a few?


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 20, 2022)

abc said:


> Do you mind naming a few?


There's 3977 ski areas in Europe. The list is here





__





						Ski resorts Europe - skiing in Europe
					

List and map of all 3977 ski resorts in Europe. Find the ideal ski resort for skiing in Europe. Overview: ski Europe




					www.skiresort.info


----------

