# R.I.P. Pontiac: 1926-2010



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 27, 2009)

I've driven quite a few Pontiacs in my life, and have been a huge fan of the 1960s GTO since I was a wee little boy....Even though it seemed inevitable, I'm sad to see the end has come today.  

R.I.P.

Couldn't resist including a few pictures, including two good recent models (Solstice Coupe and G8 ), the great KITT of the 1980s, Burt Reynold's ride from the 70s and two great GTOs.  





































Out of respect for the dead, let's not talk too much about these Pontiacs....


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## RootDKJ (Apr 27, 2009)

I owned a 1982 Pontiac Firebird 5 speed.  Something was always breaking on it but man could I rip some turns in it.  Coincidentally, I owned this during my non-skiing years, so I'm not that attached to that period of my life.


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## gmcunni (Apr 27, 2009)

i had a 77 firebird for a long time. wasn't as nice looking at the 77 trans am above but i liked it. only had a 305 though :-(


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## Glenn (Apr 27, 2009)

It's a bummer when these brands go under. While GM does a lot of "platform sharing", each brand did have some unique models. It's tough to see something with a lot of history just fade away.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 27, 2009)

Drove some nice Pontiacs in my day  they were HOT in the 60's 

But alas   ---------GM SUX  -   corporate greed , shoddy workmanship and  absolutely clueless product plannin and development  --


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## bvibert (Apr 27, 2009)

Bummer.


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## thorski (Apr 27, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> Drove some nice Pontiacs in my day  they were HOT in the 60's
> 
> But alas   ---------GM SUX  -   corporate greed , shoddy workmanship and  absolutely clueless product plannin and development  --



U SUCK DUDE. U really do.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> U SUCK DUDE. U really do.



It's just his opinion..as long as they keep making Subies I'm happy!!!!!  My midlife crisis will consist of growing a mullet and buying an 89 Sunfire!!!!  JEA!!!


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## SnowFaction (Apr 27, 2009)

I'll just blame the unions that pay out full health benefits to retirees even if the company isn't doing well anymore.  It really should be a percentage based on company performance.  This is one reason why you see a lot of foreign companies doing a bit better.


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## marcski (Apr 27, 2009)

It is ashame. My first car was a 1969 Grand Prix Model J. 428 (yes that's 7.0 ltrs) with a 4-barrel carb.  

When you opened her up, to this day, I have never experienced torque like when those extra 2 barrels opened up on that carb.  

Here's a pic of a sweet one I found.  Mine never looked this good....but I kept her running really smoothly.....


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## Edd (Apr 27, 2009)

SnowFaction said:


> I'll just blame the unions that pay out full health benefits to retirees even if the company isn't doing well anymore.  It really should be a percentage based on company performance.  This is one reason why you see a lot of foreign companies doing a bit better.



Ah, now there's an idea.  It works well at my company.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> U SUCK DUDE. U really do.



And your lack of class is only exceeded by your underwhelming intelligence  !


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## o3jeff (Apr 27, 2009)

Sad to see them go down, but until there are some drastic changes, they might not be the last.



SnowFaction said:


> I'll just blame the unions that pay out full health benefits to retirees even if the company isn't doing well anymore.  It really should be a percentage based on company performance.  This is one reason why you see a lot of foreign companies doing a bit better.


And don't forget when GM closes down for the 9 weeks this summer the employees will collect almost their full wages. They get unemployment plus GM will pay the rest to get them to their regular wages per their union contract, how can a company succeed?


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## campgottagopee (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> U SUCK DUDE. U really do.



Truth hurts don't it


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## campgottagopee (Apr 27, 2009)

Let's not forget the Fiero. Was pretty cool toolin' down the highway watching those babys burst into flames. :-o


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## thorski (Apr 27, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Truth hurts don't it



Yes as more then 21,000 more americans will lose their jobs i do think it sucks.
More layoffs will come for more americans in the future so maybe you guys should have a big ol party in celebration. 
Think of all the canadians who will be losing their jobs as well. You guys must be so happy. :beer:


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## campgottagopee (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> Yes as more then 21,000 more americans will lose their jobs i do think it sucks.
> More layoffs will come for more americans in the future so maybe you guys should have a big ol party in celebration.
> Think of all the canadians who will be losing their jobs as well. You guys must be so happy. :beer:



I hear Nissan, Toyota, Subaru and Honda are hiring---maybe they'll bring your lame ass on


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## thorski (Apr 27, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> I hear Nissan, Toyota, Subaru and Honda are hiring---maybe they'll bring your lame ass on



So good for america to shut down detoit and go with toyota motor city.
I have just researched an ancient spell that i will now hex you with.
thginot peels uoy sa daeh ruoy no eep dna sugarapsa fo tola tae god ruoy yaM


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## RootDKJ (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> So good for america to shut down detoit and go with toyota motor city.
> I have just researched an ancient spell that i will now hex you with.
> thginot peels uoy sa daeh ruoy no eep dna sugarapsa fo tola tae god ruoy yaM


Is it just me, or was this post just a little bizarre-o?


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## campgottagopee (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> So good for america to shut down detoit and go with toyota motor city.
> I have just researched an ancient spell that i will now hex you with.
> thginot peels uoy sa daeh ruoy no eep dna sugarapsa fo tola tae god ruoy yaM



the "shut down" will be good in the long run-----a total re-structure of the Big 3 has been long over due and I'm sick an tired of people getting fat for sub-par performances.

As for your hex, you are a child.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 27, 2009)

thorski said:


> Yes as more then 21,000 more americans will lose their jobs i do think it sucks.
> More layoffs will come for more americans in the future so maybe you guys should have a big ol party in celebration.
> Think of all the canadians who will be losing their jobs as well. You guys must be so happy. :beer:




If a business doesn't run efficiently it doesn't last..it's the way of the world..


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## riverc0il (Apr 27, 2009)

I somewhat feel your pain as Saturn is also getting ditched. But Saturn sold their soul to the devil years ago, so I don't feel so bad about it as they became "just another car company" just shortly after I bought my second Saturn (which was the fifth in my immediate family's history). Pontiac though has a long history and tradition. I was surprised that Buick stays on but Pontiac gets ditched.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> I was surprised that Buick stays on but Pontiac gets ditched.



Even more surprising to me is they keep GMC.  Why?  They're the same damn trucks and SUV's that Chevy offers.  I feel the same way about Mercury with Ford.  Why bother?

I'm guessing they feel that Buick still has appeal for the gray hairs out there, where as Pontiac wasn't ever going to return to prominence as a sports car brand.


Truth be told, I think the damage has been done and it's only matter of time before GM is no more.  They've built utter crap for so long that I don't see a comeback in their future.  Ford on the other hand seems to 'get it' a bit more and will probably thrive after GM's demise.   Thought that last fall when for kicks I bought some shares in Ford.  Should have bought a bunch, I've doubled my money already on it. I'd sell it now, but my wager was pretty small :lol:


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## andrec10 (Apr 27, 2009)

I've owned three Pontiacs. A 75 Firebird (I loved that car, but the gas killed me) a 87 Sunbird(What was I thinking?) and a 88 Grand Am. That car I had until 105k miles and still sold it for almost 3 grand in 93. Gave up on Pontiacs after that and GM as well. RIP


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## SnowFaction (Apr 27, 2009)

It would have been nice to see GM change with the times, but so many of their 'brands' lost any coolness factor it had (other than Hummer really) among the American automakers.  I'd have to say that Ford did a much better job marketing their products to a younger generation.  

I think we will see GMC stay around considering the government probably buys a crap load of these for 'government' usage. This is probably just a stereotype though. Haha.

Hopefully all this really does help out GM as they are pretty much about on life support for a few months now and many more months to go.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Even more surprising to me is they keep GMC.  Why?  They're the same damn trucks and SUV's that Chevy offers.




It is a little mystifying, I agree, but, apparently, GMC turns a good profit for GM.  Studies have shown that the typical GMC buyer ticks off more options when buying their truck, and they also tend not to cross-shop with Chevrolet.  So, if GMC goes, the theory is that those looking for "professional grade" trucks will buy a non-GM product.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 28, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Let's not forget the Fiero. Was pretty cool toolin' down the highway watching those babys burst into flames. :-o





Aaaah, yes, the Fiero!  I should have included a picture of one in the "positive" things about Pontiac.  Sure, they had some quality issues, but it's become somewhat of a cult car and was quite unique and adventurous for GM in its day.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 28, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> But alas   ---------GM SUX  -   corporate greed , shoddy workmanship and  absolutely clueless product plannin and development  --





SnowFaction said:


> I'll just blame the unions that pay out full health benefits to retirees even if the company isn't doing well anymore.  It really should be a percentage based on company performance.  This is one reason why you see a lot of foreign companies doing a bit better.





o3jeff said:


> And don't forget when GM closes down for the 9 weeks this summer the employees will collect almost their full wages. They get unemployment plus GM will pay the rest to get them to their regular wages per their union contract, how can a company succeed?





campgottagopee said:


> the "shut down" will be good in the long run-----a total re-structure of the Big 3 has been long over due and I'm sick an tired of people getting fat for sub-par performances.





At first I was kind of hoping people would share their memories of Pontiac and keep their armchair automobile industry analysis to themselves, but now I am glad that so many experts with MBAs and years of experience are on this board and willing to share their wisdom and insight (even if it's too late to save this industrial icon).

I look forward to the day y'all's businesses are forced to "restructure", which is a P.C. way of saying lowering your wages and benefits to bring them in line with subsidized and protected foreign competitors.  I'm sure you and your families will appreciate at that point the general public telling you how clueless and "fat" you are, too.

Anyway, to get my good vibes going again, I'm going to look at a nice GTO and think about what could have/should have been....


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 28, 2009)

Sorry for the rant...I should have just quoted a portion of this Business Week article, which better conveys my thoughts/emotions/bewilderment:


"_So the question becomes this: Why are so many people now rooting for the demise of America's auto industry? After all, in the early 1990s both BMW and Mercedes-Benz saw their sales fall in this country to barely over what Saab has been selling in recent years. And 15 years ago both Kia and Hyundai were considered automotive jokes—not to mention that both Korean carmakers were effectively bankrupt a few years later. Volkswagen's total U.S. sales in the mid-'90s were less than half the volume GM's new Malibu is achieving. 

All of these car companies experienced incredible comebacks and did so in short order. People today spend in excess of $40,000 to buy a new Hyundai Genesis, although it is likely none ever made payments on a 1994 Excel. Then again, no one dismisses Hyundai's resurgence or new engineering brilliance by constantly throwing up their past products to marginalize their present vehicles. Much in the same way, no one discusses the fact that Honda's Acura division lost money in this country for more than a decade; but if GM has a division that is losing money—whoa, that's a big problem. 

So what are we going to do if we lose most of our domestic auto industry? Import more automobiles to make up the volume? Wait for the Japanese and Germans to build more factories here to supply U.S. demand? Or give China the big opening they've been waiting for into the U.S. market? 

And if we do, then how do we deal with another couple of million good-paying jobs lost forever, or another massive increase in our foreign deficit? That's right, we don't have any good policy options. 

I suspect that most politicians, like the public, don't remember that General Motors collapsed in 1910 and 1920 and nearly collapsed in the Great Depression. It went down three times and came back four, much like our economy. Can you imagine the American Century if we had let GM go back then? 

I can't either._"


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## o3jeff (Apr 28, 2009)

From what I have read, Buick is real popular in China.


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## riverc0il (Apr 28, 2009)

The notion that the failure of the domestic auto industry mean foreign made cars will only be bought is not in step with the current situation. Domestic cars are produced outside of the country and Asian car companies build cars in the USA. If the USA based car companies go down, foreign companies will pick up the slack. They probably won't have quite as many jobs as the USA companies currently provide the USA economy. But while Toyota and Honda are hurting, they are not looking at bankruptcy. And how does bankruptcy due to having too much payroll and too many benefits help workers in the USA auto industry? It doesn't in the long term as if these companies collapse, they get nothing. And they are culpable in that scenario. Protectionism and trying to bump up USA car companies because they are domestic is not good practice. I don't understand how Americans buy almost everything with parts or components made in Asia (especially all our electronics) but throw a hissy fit about an old dog like the USA auto industry facing tough times. They NEED bankrupcty and restructuring. And maybe some Asian companies come in to take up the slack if a few companies fail. Business as usual isn't working so it is time to change things up or suffer the consequences, IMO.


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## Glenn (Apr 28, 2009)

IMHO, I thank chapter 11 is the way to go at this point. This will allow the union contracts and dealer franchise agreements to be renegotiated...to a something a little more manageable.  

I really hope the company can survive. They're starting to put out some nice vehicles these days. 

A buddy of mine in high school had a Fierro. It was a fun car. Never caught on fire. Although, with the rear engine, the front end got a little light at speed.


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## SkiDork (Apr 28, 2009)

Only Pontiac my family ever owned was a 1963 Bonneville.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 28, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Aaaah, yes, the Fiero!  I should have included a picture of one in the "positive" things about Pontiac.  Sure, they had some quality issues, but it's become somewhat of a cult car and was quite unique and adventurous for GM in its day.


Ahhhhhh


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## Philpug (Apr 28, 2009)

This should have been set in play back in the 70's. As mentioned, long over due. I hope GM will come back as a lean, mean, fighting machine. They have been producing an inferior over inflated product for far too long. It has finally caught up to them.


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## ctenidae (Apr 28, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> If a business doesn't run efficiently it doesn't last..it's the way of the world..



Truer words, rarely spoken.

Adapt or die.


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## hammer (Apr 28, 2009)

Just to stir the pot a little more...I know that a lot of people (yours truly included) tout the quality and reliability of Japanese brand vehicles, but they aren't immune to problems either:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/investigative/19294250/detail.html


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## o3jeff (Apr 28, 2009)

hammer said:


> Just to stir the pot a little more...I know that a lot of people (yours truly included) tout the quality and reliability of Japanese brand vehicles, but they aren't immune to problems either:
> 
> http://www.thebostonchannel.com/investigative/19294250/detail.html



That's old, but iirc if they were rusted Toyota bought them back for more the market value.


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## bvibert (Apr 28, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> That's old, but iirc if they were rusted Toyota bought them back for more the market value.



Yup, I know someone who made out pretty well on that deal.


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## Mildcat (Apr 28, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> That's old, but iirc if they were rusted Toyota bought them back for more the market value.



That was the Tacoma's they were buying back. The channel 5 report was about Tundra's rotting out too but not being covered by Toyota. 



bvibert said:


> Yup, I know someone who made out pretty well on that deal.



A guy I worked with got into an accident (his fault) and when he brought his Tacoma to the dealer to get it fixed they offered to buy it back at 150% of KBB excellent value or 200% for a trade in on another Toyota. After that I was keeping my eyes open for an old, rotted, beat up Tacoma that I could buy dirt cheap and sell it back to Toyota. Couldn't find any though.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> At first I was kind of hoping people would share their memories of Pontiac and keep their armchair automobile industry analysis to themselves, but now I am glad that so many experts with MBAs and years of experience are on this board and willing to share their wisdom and insight (even if it's too late to save this industrial icon).
> 
> I look forward to the day y'all's businesses are forced to "restructure", which is a P.C. way of saying lowering your wages and benefits to bring them in line with subsidized and protected foreign competitors.  I'm sure you and your families will appreciate at that point the general public telling you how clueless and "fat" you are, too.
> 
> Anyway, to get my good vibes going again, I'm going to look at a nice GTO and think about what could have/should have been....




LOL--no MBA, just 20+ years in the auto retail end of things----oh, we've restructured our dealersips like you can't believe---difference is I got "fat" by working my ass off, getting paid for results and proividing good service.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> LOL--no MBA, just 20+ years in the auto retail end of things----oh, we've restructured our dealersips like you can't believe---difference is I got "fat" by working my ass off, getting paid for results and proividing good service.




If you say so.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Sorry for the rant...I should have just quoted a portion of this Business Week article, which better conveys my thoughts/emotions/bewilderment:
> 
> 
> "_So the question becomes this: Why are so many people now rooting for the demise of America's auto industry? After all, in the early 1990s both BMW and Mercedes-Benz saw their sales fall in this country to barely over what Saab has been selling in recent years. And 15 years ago both Kia and Hyundai were considered automotive jokes—not to mention that both Korean carmakers were effectively bankrupt a few years later. Volkswagen's total U.S. sales in the mid-'90s were less than half the volume GM's new Malibu is achieving.
> ...



Wir würden Deutsch oder Japaner sprechen


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> If you say so.



Don't worry,  this guy is obviously jaded and no longer believes in the ability of america to rebound.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> If you say so.



Thanks, I do say so.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Don't worry,  this guy is obviously jaded and no longer believes in the ability of america to rebound.




Has nothing to do with America


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Don't worry,  this guy is obviously jaded and no longer believes in the ability of america to rebound.



No  T :  Sorry but  you are once again using selective listening and  misdirected  negative  fantasy .   

 Neither Camp nor anyone else ever said anything about "America's ability to ADAPT to a new reality" . 

 We are however aware of the multiple decade long self destructive behavior and performance of GM and others and are tired of the whining and siphoning of   taxpayer  $$$ for their own benefit 


With the latest Taxpayer bailout GM is now  officially GOVERNMENT MOTORS, i.e.   no longer a real business  -- sad but true .

 But i am sick of working hard all my life, saving my $$  , being fiscally responsibile and then  letting these damned fools who did it to themselves reap the reward -- let them go bankrupt 

If this is truly a private sector issue  then those who profess to  believe in GM and Chrysler's  to make it -- let them do so ON THEIR OWN  $$-----------  not mine or other hard working responsible citizens


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## Philpug (Apr 29, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> No  T :  Sorry but  you are once again using selective listening and  misdirected  negative  fantasy .
> 
> Neither Camp nor anyone else ever said anything about "America's ability to ADAPT to a new reality" .
> 
> ...



:beer: Good post.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Aaaah, yes, the Fiero!  I should have included a picture of one in the "positive" things about Pontiac.  Sure, they had some quality issues, but it's become somewhat of a cult car and was quite unique and adventurous for GM in its day.


Bump so we all could look at the Fiero again.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> If this is truly a private sector issue  then those who profess to  believe in GM and Chrysler's  to make it -- let them do so ON THEIR OWN  $$-----------  not mine or other hard working responsible citizens



That's what Im talkin about---well said Warp


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Aaaah, yes, the Fiero!  I should have included a picture of one in the "positive" things about Pontiac.  Sure, they had some quality issues, but it's become somewhat of a cult car and was quite unique and adventurous for GM in its day.



Was a very cool car. Buddy of mine had the GT and that baby flew for what it was.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> No  T :  Sorry but  you are once again using selective listening and  misdirected  negative  fantasy .
> 
> Neither Camp nor anyone else ever said anything about "America's ability to ADAPT to a new reality" .
> 
> ...



Two administrations- one republican, and one democrat have seen the importance of spending tax dollars to help these companies.  So do you think you are smarter than two think tanks?  HA!
Move over W and Obama omnipotent warp daddy thinks you guys are wrong, and if you dont stop spending his money he's gonna  secede from the union.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Two administrations- one republican, and one democrat have seen the importance of spending tax dollars to help these companies.  So do you think you are smarter than two think tanks?  HA!
> Move over W and Obama omnipotent warp daddy thinks you guys are wrong, and if you dont stop spending his money he's gonna  secede from the union.



If Warp were Prez we wouldn't be in this mess!!!!! WARP FOR PREZ!!!!!


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## SkiDork (Apr 29, 2009)

anways, getting back to non-political stuff, what about the Pontiac Solstice?  Nice ride.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> If Warp were Prez we wouldn't be in this mess!!!!! WARP FOR PREZ!!!!!



If he was prez he would probably shut down sikorsky, pratt and whitney and other defense companies and have our all of our equipment for defense built in china. :dunce:


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## andrec10 (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> If he was prez he would probably shut down sikorsky, pratt and whitney and other defense companies and have our all of our equipment for defense built in china. :dunce:



Would you Fly an F18 fighter made in China! Oops, the wing fell off:-x


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> anways, getting back to non-political stuff, what about the Pontiac Solstice?  Nice ride.



One of the nicest looking cars out there right now. the saturn sky as well.
I was glad when michael bay the director of the transformers made Jazz a solstice instead of the VW P.O.S. that jazz was in the cartoon.
Was sad when jazz got ripped in half like some lame assed hyundai,


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 29, 2009)

another proud pontiac moment:


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> If Warp were Prez we wouldn't be in this mess!!!!! WARP FOR PREZ!!!!!



  Thanks  Camp ,, but having been a college president  once,  that was enough !!!  

 BTW Thorski ---------------------  i  and most of us are smarter than damn near any politician  _LMAO  

Politicians do not WORK for a living .  

 I think most real people have had it  with  bailout whiners --

BTW  to get back to the thred topic still love the early 60's Pontiacs  . Had a 62 Catalina  400 cu in  3 speed  was a stealth rocket


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> anways, getting back to non-political stuff, what about the Pontiac Solstice?  Nice ride.



Very cool car and not a lot of $$$$


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> VW P.O.S. that jazz was in the cartoon.
> some lame assed hyundai,




are there any foreign automobiles you approve of?


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 29, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> anways, getting back to non-political stuff, what about the Pontiac Solstice?  Nice ride.





campgottagopee said:


> Very cool car and not a lot of $$$$




*this is more like it!!*


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> are there any foreign automobiles you approve of?



He's all about Chev, most of those are made in Canada and Mexico....built in America my ass!!!


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> *this is more like it!!*




When that car first came out they we're bringing (depending on your area) $2000.00 to $5000.00 over MSRP. Really not a performance oriented car but man does it have the looks.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> He's all about Chev, most of those are made in Canada and Mexico....built in America my ass!!!





i think you're spreading a bit of misinformation....as you can see below, some of chevrolet's (and GM's) best-selling models are primarily sourced in the United States, and they also happen to dominate the top-10 list of cars and trucks primarily sourced in the U.S., too.  maybe you pull this kind of stuff in the showroom to help move the iron, and that's 100% understandable (however, note that subaru doesn't crack the top 10 with any of its models), but i didn't want to let your post slide without saying something.  

i'll now go back to checking out pix of GTOs and solstices....




The Cars.com American-Made Index
By Kelsey Mays, Cars.com

What Are the Top American-Made Cars? 

Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. Models that have been discontinued are disqualified, as are those with a domestic-parts content rating below 75 percent. 

Rank Make/Model U.S. Assembly Location Last Rank 

1. Ford F-150* Claycomo, Mo.; Dearborn, Mich. 1 
2. Chevrolet Cobalt Lordstown, Ohio 2 
3. Chevrolet Malibu** Kansas City, Kan. 9 
4. Pontiac G6 Orion, Mich. 5 
5. Toyota Tundra Princeton, Ind.; San Antonio 4 
6. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind. 6 
7. Honda Odyssey Lincoln, Ala. - 
8. Chevrolet Silverado 1500* Fort Wayne, Ind.; Pontiac, Mich. 3 
9. Chrysler Sebring Sterling Heights, Mich. - 
10. Ford Explorer/Sport Trac Louisville, Ky. 10 
*Rankings based on estimated sales breakouts and/or production data.
**Excludes hybrid.

Sources: Automaker data, Automotive News

Ford and GM continue their reign in this summer's American-Made Index, but two new automakers — Chrysler and Honda — have joined the list, raising the number of manufacturers on it to five. That's the most carmakers the AMI has featured in the two years we've been compiling it.

How did those two make it? The Alabama-built Odyssey minivan led Honda's charge thanks to its high domestic-parts content rating, which indicates the percentage of U.S. and Canadian parts, by cost, in a given vehicle. The 2008 Odyssey's domestic content rating went up to 75 percent, compared to 70 percent for the '07 model, which comprised a sizeable chunk of last year's sales.

Honda spokesman Chuck Schifsky said it's hard to single out what specific domestic content was added in the Odyssey; Schifsky noted that Honda has a number of cars in the 70 percent range.

Chrysler, meanwhile, has had a tough time making the index because a number of its strongest sellers — the Dodge Ram pickup and Grand Caravan minivan, for example — are either assembled mostly in Canada or have comparatively low domestic-parts content ratings. That's not the case this time: The Chrysler Sebring sedan and convertible, both built in Michigan, pushed a number of others out of the way to make it to ninth place on the list.

In Chrysler's wake? Among a few models to drop off the list this time around was the Ford Escape, long an AMI staple; it's domestic-parts content rating fell 25 percentage points (from 90 percent to 65 percent) when it was redesigned for 2008. Last winter, Ford spokesman Wes Sherwood couldn't give a reason for the domestic content drop, but said Ford is "proud of the domestically produced parts that go into our vehicles ... but there are changes from year to year."

Sherwood need only point to the F-150 pickup, which has claimed the top spot in the AMI five times running. Sagging pickup sales have had no effect yet on its status: The F-Series is built here with consistently high domestic-parts content, and its high — if falling — sales continue to give it a commanding lead. We've seen earlier contenders like the Toyota Camry go from near the top to elimination, though; all it takes is a precipitous drop in a car's domestic content. With the redesigned '09 F-150 in the wings, it will be interesting to see how its content ratings fare.

Ford's other model on the list, the Kentucky-built Explorer, continues to rank 10th.

*GM has always been a strong player, but that's true for different reasons this time. The Kansas-built Chevy Malibu moved from an unremarkable 33rd ranking in year-to-date sales in December to 15th overall today, and its 85 percent domestic-parts content rating is as high as any vehicle we surveyed. *It jumped to third place in the AMI, up from ninth. Making the opposite trip was the Silverado, whose sagging sales and increased production in Mexico and Canada knocked it down to eighth.

Other GMs, from the Chevrolet Cobalt to the Pontiac G6, generally held steady. So did Toyota's two entrants, the Sienna minivan and Tundra pickup. Stagnant sales, meanwhile, pushed the aging Chevy TrailBlazer off the list.

All the same, coupes and sedans seem to be making limited headway — strange, given higher gas prices and headier sales in those segments. Our first index, in June 2006, had three cars; today there are four.

Why is that? The answer might be as simple as where the models are built. For this particular index, Cars.com surveyed the country's 58 best-selling models through May 31 of this year. Of the 30 trucks, vans and SUVs in that group, 23 are assembled in the U.S. (though not always exclusively; some models are assembled both in plants here and in other countries), but just half of the cars on the list — 14 of 28 — are built here.

"Among popular models, more cars are imported to the U.S. than trucks, vans and SUVs," said Tina Jantzi, a senior forecaster at J.D. Power and Associates. "It's difficult to say definitively why, as there are likely many reasons that vary by manufacturer."

One possible factor is the cost of shipping vehicles, which favors cars because they're lighter and smaller. Either way, it's a trend that could persist for some time. Jantzi predicts that by 2015, some 69 percent of popular imports will be cars, up from 67 percent today, according to J.D. Power data.

David Cole, chairman of the Ann Arbor, Mich.-based Center for Automotive Research, says it makes sense to build where there's demand.

"Since the market for larger vehicles is more narrowly focused on North America, more would be built here," Cole said. "But for many of the cars, they could come from production facilities just about anywhere.

"I'm not sure this is likely to change much, although with the general downsizing of more cars and trucks here, that may lead to globalization of more production. Ultimately the objective of any manufacturer is to maximize utilization of all production assets — that is, operate at 100 percent of capacity or more."

Globalized production, of course, also means that a number of popular models already aren't as homegrown as you might think. Take cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Impala and Chrysler 300: The Michigan-built Mustang has a disappointing 65 percent domestic-parts content rating, while the 300 and Impala are built in Canada. What's more, America's beloved retro hatchbacks, the Chevy HHR and soon-to-be-discontinued Chrysler PT Cruiser, are built in Mexico. The pint-sized Chevy Aveo is built in South Korea.

Not that import automakers fare any better: *Hyundai's Alabama-built 2009 Sonata has just 43 percent domestic content, while the Ohio-built Honda CR-V comes in at just 10 percent. That portrait of urban frugality, the Toyota Prius? It's imported from Japan — and so are suburbanite favorites like the Nissan Murano and Toyota RAV4.*

Editor's note: In today's global economy, there's no easy way to determine just how American a car is. Many cars built in the U.S., for example, are assembled using parts that come from somewhere else. Some cars assembled in the U.S. from strictly American-made parts don't sell very well, meaning that fewer Americans are building those models. Cars.com's American-Made Index highlights the cars that are built here, have the highest percentage of domestic parts, and are bought in the largest numbers by Americans.

There are a few options for determining a car's domestic-parts content. We went with the figure that appears alongside the window sticker of new cars as a result of the American Automobile Labeling Act, enacted in 1994. The AALA mandates that virtually every new car display the percentage, by cost, of its parts that originated in the U.S. and Canada. We deemed cars with a domestic-parts content rating of 75 percent or higher eligible for the index.

© Cars.com 7/1/08 

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> are there any foreign automobiles you approve of?



 I only like the look of one foreign car. The nissan Z.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> i think you're spreading a bit of misinformation....as you can see below, some of chevrolet's (and GM's) best-selling models are primarily sourced in the United States, and they also happen to dominate the top-10 list of cars and trucks primarily sourced in the U.S., too.  maybe you pull this kind of stuff in the showroom to help move the iron, and that's 100% understandable (however, note that subaru doesn't crack the top 10 with any of its models), but i didn't want to let your post slide without saying something.
> 
> i'll now go back to checking out pix of GTOs and solstices....
> 
> ...




Right, should've said a large %, not "most" my bad----shouldn't "American Manufactures" lead the "Buikt in America" list anyways??? 

Subie wont show up on any top 10 manufacturing lists until you get to quality---they are a very small car company----heck, Nissan sell in on month what Subie does in a year. Talk about miss- information


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, should've said a large %, not "most" my bad----shouldn't "American Manufactures" lead the "Buikt in America" list anyways???
> 
> Subie wont show up on any top 10 manufacturing lists until you get to quality---they are a very small car company----heck, Nissan sell in on month what Subie does in a year. Talk about miss- information



Subaru deals with a small clientele. Just so happens to be the same people pushing for proposition 8 in cali.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Subaru deals with a small clientele. Just so happens to be the same people pushing for proposition 8 in cali.



You crack me up


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> You crack me up



I gotta admit i thought that was funny to.
 my brother drives a forrester and i bust em on him all the time.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> I only like the look of one foreign car. The nissan Z.



so let's just say you're lucky day arrives and you win a BMW 745 in a sweepstakes.  You're going to trade that car for an impala?


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## Philpug (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> One of the nicest looking cars out there right now. the saturn sky as well.
> I was glad when michael bay the director of the transformers made Jazz a solstice instead of the VW P.O.S. that jazz was in the cartoon.
> Was sad when jazz got ripped in half like some lame assed hyundai,



That was not Michael Bays idea, VW chose not to be involved in the movie, they didn't want their cars being perceived as weapons. Just another point that you are completely off mark on. 

While the Sky does look nice, and yes is does from 20+ paces, get up close, pop the hood/trunk any panel that opens and you will see shoddy workmanship, lousy welds and overspray and drips. These are some of the areas that the american manufacturers are sorely lacking. Style, IMHO has never been an issue, it is the area between paper an production that sucks.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> so let's just say you're lucky day arrives and you win a BMW 745 in a sweepstakes.  You're going to trade that car for an impala?



The new Camaro


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> The new Camaro



different car class try again

unless you also say you'd take the Camaro over a 911


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

Philpug said:


> That was not Michael Bays idea, VW chose not to be involved in the movie, they didn't want their cars being perceived as weapons. Just another point that you are completely off mark on.
> 
> While the Sky does look nice, and yes is does from 20+ paces, get up close, pop the hood/trunk any panel that opens and you will see shoddy workmanship, lousy welds and overspray and drips. These are some of the areas that the american manufacturers are sorely lacking. Style, IMHO has never been an issue, it is the area between paper an production that sucks.



You are stuck in the 80's with your perception of american cars kid.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> different car class try again
> 
> unless you also say you'd take the Camaro over a 911



Son have you ever seen a girl naked?


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> so let's just say you're lucky day arrives and you win a BMW 745 in a sweepstakes.  You're going to trade that car for an impala?



Shit man you could trade that baby for 3 Impalas----LOL


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## hammer (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> so let's just say you're lucky day arrives and you win a BMW 745 in a sweepstakes.  You're going to trade that car for an impala?


I had an Impala as a rental car in Arizona last week...good amount of back seat room and trunk space, but the acceleration was weak, the brakes went from mush to panic too easily, and the front seat headrests were not comfortable at all.

No way would I trade in the BMW...


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Shit man you could trade that baby for 3 Impalas----LOL



Yes and if you're lucky one of them might actually make it past 50,000  miles without a meltdown


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Son have you ever seen a girl naked?



daily

what's your point?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Shit man you could trade that baby for 3 Impalas----LOL



You know, in my line of work, in $ value, chefs could buy 3 crap commodity steaks for the price of 1 of what I sell.  Not a single chef would take such a trade.

You're really not being fair to BMW with that statement.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> You know, in my line of work, in $ value, chefs could buy 3 crap commodity steaks for the price of 1 of what I sell.  Not a single chef would take such a trade.
> 
> You're really not being fair to BMW with that statement.



True, especially being the 7 Series----that's when you can really say, "I drive a beemer".


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> daily
> 
> what's your point?



Couldnt find the 745 on the bmw web site so i dont know the cost. but if they are evenly priced. yes i would take the chevy any and everyday, or a ford.
 cars are not to practical for me because i need my truck to get'r done.
 But if it was my lucky day and i won a foreign car i would trade it in for the new camaro.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> You know, in my line of work, in $ value, chefs could buy 3 crap commodity steaks for the price of 1 of what I sell.  Not a single chef would take such a trade.
> 
> You're really not being fair to BMW with that statement.



So that beemer is worth 8 hyundais?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> So that beemer is worth 8 hyundais?



Like and think what you want.  I'll admit to not test driving and Impala or Malibu before I bought the Sonata.  I did however, test the Fusion.  While I was impressed with the Fusion in that Ford had come a long way since the POS taurus that predated it; it was in no way shape or form as well constructed of a car as the Sonata, Accord, Altima or Camry.  I picked the Hyundai because I felt it drove the best out of the five cars I tested.  The difference between it in the Japanese cars was minimal, so price was a driving factor.  The difference between it and the Ford was significant.  I didn't even bother with a Chevy option because every Chevy I've driven in my life outside of a truck has been a POS.  

Unlike yourself, I'm not a car brand Homer.  I actually use my brain when I shop for a vehicle like most people do and drive the damn car before I make a decision.  It could be made in Panama for all I care as long as I like it.

The fact that you are so completely close minded to anything but American brands suggests to me that you are a completely close minded individual in general; your comment on prop 8 further confirms that.  Not exactly a winning personality trait.  Put that in your small to medium sized half pipe and smoke it.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Son have you ever seen a girl naked?



you know any good sites??


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> True, especially being the 7 Series----that's when you can really say, "I drive a beemer".



Wow $80,000 dollars for a 7 series. 
I could get  the following 
1. A chevy impala.
2. A  jeep rubicon (with all the bells and whistles)
3. A couple of polaris ATV's with a nice trailer
4. and money left over for a round or two of jaeger bombs and sam adams chasers for the whole bar. :beer:


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## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Wow $80,000 dollars for a 7 series.
> I could get  the following
> 1. A chevy impala.
> 2. A  jeep rubicon (with all the bells and whistles)
> ...



Yup, and at the end of the day all you'd have is a hangover.


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## Philpug (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> You are stuck in the 80's with your perception of american cars kid.



Hardly. And I am not your "kid".


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 29, 2009)

Philpug said:


> Hardly. And I am not your "kid".



I'd be proud to have a son like Philpug, at least for gaper day..:beer:


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 30, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, should've said a large %, not "most" my bad----shouldn't "American Manufactures" lead the "Buikt in America" list anyways???
> 
> Subie wont show up on any top 10 manufacturing lists until you get to quality---they are a very small car company----heck, Nissan sell in on month what Subie does in a year. Talk about miss- information




not to belabor this, but the point of the article was to repond to your point that chevrolets aren't built in the U.S.("_He's all about Chev, most of those are made in Canada and Mexico....built in America my ass!!!_").  how many cars subara sells compared to nissan is not relevant...what's relevant is the percentage of american-sourced content in each subaru (or, lack thereof, to be more precise).

the article made clear that chevy/GM (especially) and ford lead the industry in terms of the percentage of CONTENT of cars sourced in the U.S....not only that, but the gm and ford cars in the list are major volume cars, not like toyota's sienna minivan.

i'm not trying to be all rah-rah U.S.A U.S.A here, just pointing out that saying "most" chevies are built in canada and mexico is wrong, and, IMHO, it's not something that someone in the industry should be getting wrong.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 30, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> not to belabor this, but the point of the article was to repond to your point that chevrolets aren't built in the U.S.("_He's all about Chev, most of those are made in Canada and Mexico....built in America my ass!!!_").  how many cars subara sells compared to nissan is not relevant...what's relevant is the percentage of american-sourced content in each subaru (or, lack thereof, to be more precise).
> 
> the article made clear that chevy/GM (especially) and ford lead the industry in terms of the percentage of CONTENT of cars sourced in the U.S....not only that, but the gm and ford cars in the list are major volume cars, not like toyota's sienna minivan.
> 
> i'm not trying to be all rah-rah U.S.A U.S.A here, just pointing out that saying "most" chevies are built in canada and mexico is wrong, and, IMHO, it's not something that someone in the industry should be getting wrong.




Did you not read my responce where I said you were correct and that I should've said "a large %" and not "most"???? And when your list is based on "sales" then yes the amount of sales is relevant. (subie wouldn't make that list anyway because they're only 55% American content) I'd be curious to see a list where they would take "fleet sales" out and use only retail, that could open some eyes. 

My original post was a "jab" at Thorski more than anything, but this is kinda fun. Should've brought up the Chev Aveo, or I mean Daewoo.


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

Philpug said:


> That was not Michael Bays idea, VW chose not to be involved in the movie, they didn't want their cars being perceived as weapons. Just another point that you are completely off mark on.
> 
> While the Sky does look nice, and yes is does from 20+ paces, get up close, pop the hood/trunk any panel that opens and you will see shoddy workmanship, lousy welds and overspray and drips. These are some of the areas that the american manufacturers are sorely lacking. Style, IMHO has never been an issue, it is the area between paper an production that sucks.



I have no idea why german companies wouldn't want their cars percieved as weapons.
The heritage of german cars is of making nice cars for the people, no?


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Did you not read my responce where I said you were correct and that I should've said "a large %" and not "most"???? And when your list is based on "sales" then yes the amount of sales is relevant. (subie wouldn't make that list anyway because they're only 55% American content) I'd be curious to see a list where they would take "fleet sales" out and use only retail, that could open some eyes.
> 
> My original post was a "jab" at Thorski more than anything, but this is kinda fun. Should've brought up the Chev Aveo, or I mean Daewoo.



How dare you jab at the Odinson. :razz:


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

anyway, to again get away from Politics, here's a question:

Which year GTO was your fave?

I like the year of the one in the very first post (Blue) which I believe is either a 66 or 67

Anyone else?


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> anyway, to again get away from Politics, here's a question:
> 
> Which year GTO was your fave?
> 
> ...



I had a 69 pontiac le mans with the chrome front grill in high school.
I bought it used and dropped a 327 chevy in it that i had rebuilt for another car i planned on buying. But when i saw the le mans i bought it instead. 
In my opinion 69 was the best year for muscle cars, and pontiac made the best.
 Although the rebirth of the mustang, challenger, and camaro is awesome, and maybe the best is yet to come. Unfortunately not for pontiac. Maybe mittsubishi will make a muscle car and call it the zero. 

And it's not politics- it's car talk.


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

Now, I'm not that familiar with Pontiac so riddle me this:  What was the difference between the LeMans and GTO?  Same car but cheaper?  Different car?


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

oh, re: 1969

I agree, prolly the very best mucsle car year.  I love the 69 Vette the best.  But I would also assert that 67 and 68 are a close second.

I still like the body of the 66/67 better than the 69 Goat


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> Now, I'm not that familiar with Pontiac so riddle me this:  What was the difference between the LeMans and GTO?  Same car but cheaper?  Different car?



Bodys were about the same. GTO had the enduro nose that was painted instead of chrome. You had more options on the GTO.  The GTO was the Hi performance model of the le-mans.  4 barrel carb as opposed to two. I don't remember if the diff. had better gearing or not. I ran 373's
Much like the difference between a normal chevy and an SS version. The GTO was faster.


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> oh, re: 1969
> 
> I agree, prolly the very best mucsle car year.  I love the 69 Vette the best.  But I would also assert that 67 and 68 are a close second.
> 
> I still like the body of the 66/67 better than the 69 Goat



I am partial to the 69 as i owned one and it's as old as me. ha ha


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

What about the Tempest (My Cousin Vinny reference)?  How did that relate to the LeMans?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2009)

thorski said:


> Bodys were about the same. GTO had the enduro nose that was painted instead of chrome. You had more options on the GTO.  The GTO was the Hi performance model of the le-mans.  4 barrel carb as opposed to two. I don't remember if the diff. had better gearing or not. I ran 373's
> Much like the difference between a normal chevy and an SS version. The GTO was faster.


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> What about the Tempest (My Cousin Vinny reference)?  How did that relate to the LeMans?



The better question is why did i put in 373's instead of 411's?
What happens during normal driving with 411's?


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

I think there's too much neck snapping going on, right?


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> I think there's too much neck snapping going on, right?



The car would kinda hop when going around corners. It was also a little cheaper at the time which didn't hurt. 
I like that the big three are bringing the muscle car back, and it really is a shame that the firebird or goat will not come back.


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## Glenn (Apr 30, 2009)

Was it the GTO that had the 6 pack carbs? (3 2bbls in a row)


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## Mildcat (Apr 30, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> anyway, to again get away from Politics, here's a question:
> 
> Which year GTO was your fave?
> 
> ...



That's like asking which one of your children you love the most. If I had to pick one it would be a 70 Judge with the Ram Air IV motor. I like the lines on the 70's better than the 68's/69's and I like the Endura nose too. A close second would be a 67 with a 389 Tri Power.


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## SkiDork (Apr 30, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Was it the GTO that had the 6 pack carbs? (3 2bbls in a row)



I rmember seeing a Barracuda (or was it a Roadrunner) with the 6 pack


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