# Home heating discussion (split from a ski question thread)



## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> You need to learn to impulse buy!



I usually do, trying to resist it! Just paid $600 for a tank of Oil so that makes it easier to hold onto my wallet.


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## o3jeff (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> I usually do, trying to resist it! Just paid $600 for a tank of Oil so that makes it easier to hold onto my wallet.



I've been happy with my purchases that way(Sultan 85's)

I just ordered 100 gallons this morning, $3.85:sad:


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> I've been happy with my purchases that way(Sultan 85's)
> 
> I just ordered 100 gallons this morning, $3.85:sad:



That's a good price I just paid $4 uke: I need to shop around more and also find someone who will deliver less than 150 gallons. With this weather that will last me until Christmas.


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## o3jeff (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> That's a good price I just paid $4 uke: I need to shop around more and also find someone who will deliver less than 150 gallons. With this weather that will last me until Christmas.



Thats usually high, but if I buy whoever has the cheapest, it usually clogs my filter and it sucks cleaning it. If I ordered 150 gallons it was $3.82(big savings)


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Thats usually high, but if I buy whoever has the cheapest, it usually clogs my filter and it sucks cleaning it. If I ordered 150 gallons it was $3.82(big savings)



I'm going to try and buy in advance next winter. In a super cold winter I'd probably only burn 400 gallons. I'm only at about 200 gallons for this season so far.


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## bvibert (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> I'm going to try and buy in advance next winter. In a super cold winter I'd probably only burn 400 gallons. I'm only at about 200 gallons for this season so far.



If you don't mind me asking, how big is your house?  Most of the houses that we're looking at have oil heat.  We have gas heat where we are now, so we're trying to estimate what our heating bills will be like...


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

bvibert said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how big is your house?  Most of the houses that we're looking at have oil heat.  We have gas heat where we are now, so we're trying to estimate what our heating bills will be like...



1400sqf +/- and it's pretty well insulated. Had Mass Save come in and check it out when I bought it. Did a little sealing and added insulation to the attic.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> 1400sqf +/- and it's pretty well insulated. Had Mass Save come in and check it out when I bought it. Did a little sealing and added insulation to the attic.



And I have forced hot air. I would prefer a Hot Water system because the dust level is high with hot air, but it does allow me to have central air for the summer.


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## mlctvt (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> That's a good price I just paid $4 uke: I need to shop around more and also find someone who will deliver less than 150 gallons. With this weather that will last me until Christmas.



Several people I work with use this company.

http://www.dollarwiseoil.com/index.asp

They contract with local oil companies. In our area Valley Oil is the company that delivers.
Prices are fantastic $3.69 for my area today. The only reason I haven't signed up with them is I have a contract with another company for this year.


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## mlctvt (Feb 28, 2012)

bvibert said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how big is your house?  Most of the houses that we're looking at have oil heat.  We have gas heat where we are now, so we're trying to estimate what our heating bills will be like...



Here's a couple for comparison.

 We have 2600 sq ft, cape style house with addition off the back. It's pretty well insulated since we did an extensive renovation about 12 years ago. We use between 610- 625 gallons per year.

My father used to own a 1700 sq ft ranch house, built in the 1950s but the attic was insulted well.  He used 700-725 gallons per year.

We both used set back thermostats so the heat was 60 or so at night or when we aren't home and about 67 when home.


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## xwhaler (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.newenglandoil.com

Nice way to comparison shop home heating oil prices.


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## bvibert (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> 1400sqf +/- and it's pretty well insulated. Had Mass Save come in and check it out when I bought it. Did a little sealing and added insulation to the attic.





wa-loaf said:


> And I have forced hot air. I would prefer a Hot Water system because the dust level is high with hot air, but it does allow me to have central air for the summer.





mlctvt said:


> Here's a couple for comparison.
> 
> We have 2600 sq ft, cape style house with addition off the back. It's pretty well insulated since we did an extensive renovation about 12 years ago. We use between 610- 625 gallons per year.
> 
> ...



Thanks guys.  Not looking forward to dealing with oil heat, we got spoiled by the natural gas.


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## o3jeff (Feb 28, 2012)

bvibert said:


> Thanks guys.  Not looking forward to dealing with oil heat, we got spoiled by the natural gas.



It does suck, thats why I went to a pellet stove.

Can you change the title of this thread to "Atomic Theory Questions and Home Heating"


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> It does suck, thats why I went to a pellet stove.
> 
> Can you change the title of this thread to "Atomic Theory Questions and Home Heating"



Or maybe we can just split the home heating stuff out into it's own thread?


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## bvibert (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Or maybe we can just split the home heating stuff out into it's own thread?



Good idea!  Done.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> My father used to own a 1700 sq ft ranch house, built in the 1950s but the attic was insulted well.  He used 700-725 gallons per year.
> 
> We both used set back thermostats so the heat was 60 or so at night or when we aren't home and about 67 when home.



Mine's a 50's ranch too. And those are pretty much the same temps I keep the heat at.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

Another thing that is important is a well ventilated attic. Helps with heat/cooling the house and also prevents the melting and ice damns everyone had trouble with last winter.


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## WakeboardMom (Feb 28, 2012)

Yowsa.  3200 sq. ft., three zones that are almost always set at 62 (we're at work from Mon - Friday and never there on weekends.) and I just called for my third fill of the winter.  $3.65 a gallon from Haffner's...they serve 20 towns in MA and NH.

This is one of the reasons why I signed with a realtor this week.  There's a nice house in Southern NH now on the market.  A cute little condo is calling my name.


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## vdk03 (Feb 28, 2012)

def need to get either a wood or pellet stove. crazy to still be burning oil. at least get a ventless propane stove.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

If there was gas on my street I'd switch. It'd be about 5k for a new furnace.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 28, 2012)

Oil.  Let's just say that house you see blow up on the news due to natural gas explosion...well...btdt.  Will never heat with a volatile fuel, not worth saving a few bucks.  Oil it is, forever.


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## vdk03 (Feb 28, 2012)

You've never seen oil burn? It burns hotter than gas.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 28, 2012)

vdk03 said:


> You've never seen oil burn? It burns hotter than gas.



Yes..but is it easy to ignite?


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## Fuller Wycliff (Feb 28, 2012)

just putting it out there, i know a guy in the solar biz if anyone is interested.  not trying to spam the forum or anything, just offering a service that might be of interest.


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## o3jeff (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> If there was gas on my street I'd switch. It'd be about 5k for a new furnace.



Can't you do propane?


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## wa-loaf (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Can't you do propane?



Propane is pretty expensive and then you are still dealing with deliveries.


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## Geoff (Feb 28, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Can't you do propane?



Propane:
Unless you are set up to bulk buy it, propane is at least as expensive as oil.

My Vermont townhouse is heated with a propane boiler.   Each building has a big buried tank and the units are individually metered off the tank.  I'm locked in at $2.25/gallon.   Propane is 2/3 the energy of oil so it's comparable to locking in on an oil contract at $3.38/gallon.   The lock-in price for single family homes was around $3.00/gallon.   You need to buy a lot of propane before it comes in cheaper than oil.

Right now, small fill-ups of propane around here are around $3.60 a gallon so it's like paying $5.00/gallon for heating oil.    

Natural gas:
My flatland place has NStar natural gas service.   Their price is about to go down 16% in May to reflect the decline in natural gas prices.

My gas bill for January said I burned 107 ccf.    You burn about 135 cubic feet of natural gas to get the same heat as one gallon of heating oil.   This translates to about 80 gallons of oil.   My gas bill was $127.50 so this is way cheaper than oil heat.

Of course, the flip side of this is consuming less energy....

I've been doing substantial improvements to the insulation of my summer house.   The attic is now R-30.  About 60% of the exterior walls have been gutted, re-framed, and insulated.   The rest will be completed next winter.


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## severine (Feb 28, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Propane is pretty expensive and then you are still dealing with deliveries.



That's what I love about natural gas. I never have to worry about running out; turn on the stove or turn up the thermostat, and we're all set. 10+ years of this will be hard to give up, but there are very few houses on the market right now that meet our needs and have gas. 

Thanks, guys! It helps to know! I read on a website that the average home in the US uses 185 gallons of oil per month during the winter heating season. It seems their figures are not exactly accurate...


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## mattm59 (Feb 28, 2012)

severine said:


> That's what I love about natural gas. I never have to worry about running out;



After Irene and Alfred, I've been saying the same about my wood pile 

I burn about 8-10 cord a year, and average 190 gallons of oil annually. 2300 sq. ft., I wear shorts all winter in the house. 17 years doing this, splitter/saws/truck cost money, but it's good being the noisiest a-hole in the neighborhood,  :roll: and I sold enough wood to pay for the splitter and saws, as well as making Christmas money a couple years for me and my son. looks like with a little hustle I'll sell a few cords again.


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## Abubob (Feb 29, 2012)

Home heating prices are what keep me renting. But that may change soon. What I worry about (besides the exorbitant cost) is power outages. My wife gets huge headaches when ever she goes into someone home with a wood stove. Does anyone know anything about outdoor wood furnaces?


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 29, 2012)

2000 sq ft home,  45 windows all with  argonized E glass, 

2 yrs ago we  Insulated the crap out of the all walls and the attic and added new all new soffit vents  w/ fibreglass channels to new roof venting towers .

We keep the joint at 69 degrees all day and when we go to bed the program takes it to 65.

Use gas for heat , hot water and gas fireplace .

Thru Feb 9, 2012 we've paid $778.54 average temp for the past month were 8 degrees higher than last season .  Last year for the FULL heating season we paid  $1407.72 for heat and hot water 

 Heating season up here is a bit longer than southern NE region


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## Glenn (Feb 29, 2012)

Fuller Wycliff said:


> just putting it out there, i know a guy in the solar biz if anyone is interested.  not trying to spam the forum or anything, just offering a service that might be of interest.



:lol:


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## severine (Feb 29, 2012)

Abubob said:


> Home heating prices are what keep me renting. But that may change soon. What I worry about (besides the exorbitant cost) is power outages. My wife gets huge headaches when ever she goes into someone home with a wood stove. Does anyone know anything about outdoor wood furnaces?



Check zoning for where you live. In Simsbury, CT, outdoor wood furnaces are banned, for example. Local regulations will tell whether they're allowed or not.

We've always paid our own heat while renting, even oil fill-ups for the short time we rented an apartment with oil heat 12 years ago. You're spoiled!


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## wa-loaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Abubob said:


> Home heating prices are what keep me renting. But that may change soon. What I worry about (besides the exorbitant cost) is power outages. My wife gets huge headaches when ever she goes into someone home with a wood stove. Does anyone know anything about outdoor wood furnaces?





severine said:


> Check zoning for where you live. In Simsbury, CT, outdoor wood furnaces are banned, for example. Local regulations will tell whether they're allowed or not.
> 
> We've always paid our own heat while renting, even oil fill-ups for the short time we rented an apartment with oil heat 12 years ago. You're spoiled!



Even if it's allowed your neighbors will hate you. Those things just smoke everyone out.


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## Abubob (Mar 1, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Even if it's allowed your neighbors will hate you. Those things just smoke everyone out.



Can the smoke really be any worse than a regular wood or pellet stove?

Reading some new regs for NH - pretty strict. What is "clean" wood?


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## wa-loaf (Mar 1, 2012)

Abubob said:


> Can the smoke really be any worse than a regular wood or pellet stove?
> 
> Reading some new regs for NH - pretty strict. What is "clean" wood?



If your wife is a sensitive to the smoke as you say she is I think it's a non-starter. The ones I've seen (a local Dairy uses one and a neighbor of my dads had on in Maine) seem to put out a lot more smoke than a wood stove.


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## o3jeff (Mar 1, 2012)

I have a pellet stove that I vent straight out the back wall and unless you walk within 2-3 feet of the pipe you can't smell it and there is zero smell inside the house.


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## Warp Daddy (Mar 1, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> If your wife is a sensitive to the smoke as you say she is I think it's a non-starter. The ones I've seen (a local Dairy uses one and a neighbor of my dads had on in Maine) seem to put out a lot more smoke than a wood stove.



Absolutely there have been REAL issues with these things in our region . They are banned in the community . but outside if you are downwind of these things you will be having problems with smoke smells especially if they are using pallets as fuel or some trash wood -- its god awful ! 

Bob with your wife's senstivity i imagine this would be something to avoid as others have suggested


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## ctenidae (Mar 1, 2012)

Was just reading some natural gas demand forecasts- thinking is thatgas demand for home heating is falling as people move to warmer climates, but it's made up for by increased dmeand for electricity as those people use electricity for space heating. Interesting dynamic I hadn't really considered before.


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## Geoff (Mar 1, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> Was just reading some natural gas demand forecasts- thinking is thatgas demand for home heating is falling as people move to warmer climates, but it's made up for by increased dmeand for electricity as those people use electricity for space heating. Interesting dynamic I hadn't really considered before.



The rest of the country just uses their heat pump for both cooling and the small amount of heating they require.   As long as it's not much colder than 40F, the new high 20+ SEER heat pumps are better at heating than a gas furnace.   As soon as you have to use heating elements to make the house warm, it's cheaper to use natural gas.   In the south, they have combination units that run as heat pumps until it approaches freezing and then automatically switch over to natural gas.

The number of housing units in the cold part of the country isn't shrinking.   It just isn't growing the way housing units are in the warm parts of the country.   The existing housing stock is much more energy efficient than it was 10 years ago and I think that accounts for most of the decline in the use of residential natural gas.   People used their Obama tax credits to make their homes more energy efficient at minimal cost.   It's pretty easy to get your local energy supplier to hook up a blower at minimal cost to run the test for needed caulking and weatherstripping to reduce your air leaks.   I'm doing a lot of home remodeling and the building codes now require EnergyStar rated windows and doors whenever you replace them.   Insulation is the same way.  If you open up a wall as part of a permitted project, there's now an insulation inspection that happens before you seal it back up.   The energy efficiency of homes in the north is just going to keep getting better.


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## ctenidae (Mar 1, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The energy efficiency of homes in the north is just going to keep getting better.



Better insulation is teh single biggest source of potential carbon emmission reductions- and it's a negative cost, to boot.


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## Geoff (Mar 1, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> Better insulation is teh single biggest source of potential carbon emmission reductions- and it's a negative cost, to boot.



What do you mean by "negative cost"?    Do you mean that the savings in heating costs covers the cost of insulation in a relatively short time?

Sort of....
An attic blanket or blown insulation in an attic with little insulation certainly behaves that way

Weatherstripping and caulking to stop air leaks definitely has an immediate savings

I doubt you get back the heat savings replacing old windows with argon Low E windows.   Screw-on argon thermopane storm windows probably do pay back.

Here's an extreme example:

I've been gutting walls & ceilings, re-framing, re-wiring, and re-insulating.   Turning an R4 wall into maybe an R11 wall.   There is no way I'd recover that cost as savings on heat in my lifetime.   Doesn't matter.   The old 3/8" sheet rock looked awful and I didn't trust the wiring.   I'd rather look at fresh paint on a skim-coated 1/2" sheet rocked wall.   I don't have any drafts.  I can't hear the neighbors' lawn mower.


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## Cannonball (Mar 2, 2012)

^^^  That's like one of those weight loss before & after photos where they use fluorescent lights, bad clothing, and 3-day bender for the before....and hollywood staging for the after!!!

Actually...looks great..  Nice work.


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## o3jeff (Mar 2, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> I just ordered 100 gallons this morning, $3.85:sad:



They delivered it yesterday, was actually $3.75 a gallon.


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## ctenidae (Mar 2, 2012)

Geoff said:


> What do you mean by "negative cost"?    Do you mean that the savings in heating costs covers the cost of insulation in a relatively short time?



Exactly- the savings in heating and cooling costs add up pretty quickly. Especially in warmer places that do a lot of cooling. 

http://www.mckinsey.com/locations/s.../mgi_carbon_productivity_challenge_report.pdf

McKinsey did an oft-cited study in 2008 on reducing GHG emissions, and insulation is a big winner. Commercial and industrial buildings probably more so than residential, but updating older construction can have a big impact individually right up front.

An IHS study says that developing shale gas reserves is 40-50% cheaper than conventional gas, leading to a reduction in power prices of 10%. They estimate that means over $900/year in additional disposable income per household by 2015, going up to $2,000 by 2035. Nothing to do with insulation, of course, but it's still a substantial amount of money, I think.


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## Geoff (Mar 4, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> ^^^  That's like one of those weight loss before & after photos where they use fluorescent lights, bad clothing, and 3-day bender for the before....and hollywood staging for the after!!!
> 
> Actually...looks great..  Nice work.



The "after" photo was taken with my Olympus PEN E-P2.   The "before" was taken by the guy who is doing my work on his iPhone.

And since I've hijacked this, there's the next "after" with the walls skim coated






Back on-topic:

I just opened my Vermont January propane bill and auto-pay receipt.   I'm metered off a big shared tank at my townhouse.   I'm paying $2.19/gallon and burned 52 CCF / 143 1/2 gallons in January.   The energy cost is about 3x what I pay for natural gas in my other place.


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