# Belleayre's Tony Lanza fired by DEC



## catskillman (May 29, 2012)

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2012/05/24/dec-fires-belleayre-superintendent-tony-lanza/

Tony Lanza, the Superintendent of New York’s Belleayre Mountain Ski Center for more than a decade, is out of a job.

 spokesperson for the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) confirmed that Lanza was dismissed on Tuesday for what was indicated to be just cause, but refused to elaborate, citing confidentiality in personnel matters. Lanza could not be reached for comment.

Lanza joined Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in 1999 as Assistant Superintendent, and was promoted to the Superintendent’s role in 2001. In 2007, an investigation by New York State Inspector General Kristine Hamann concluded that Lanza engaged in conduct that constituted a conflict of interest by renting a home co-owned with a personal friend to the Boston Concession Group (BCG), which at the time was under contract with Belleayre to operate the ski shop and food concessions at the ski area. The investigation also determined that the “Belleayre Trolley,” a state-owned shuttle bus used to transport skiers from Fleishmanns to Belleayre and between the ski resort and outlying parking lots, made trips solely for the purpose of carrying the BCG employees residing in Lanza’s house to and from work, and found irregularities in checking accounts and vehicle records. Hamann’s office reported its findings to both the DEC and the New York State Ethics Commission. It’s unclear whether or not any disciplinary action was taken by the DEC at that time.

While the DEC currently operates Belleayre, the state is in the process of shifting that responsibility to the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), which operates Whiteface Mountain and Gore Mountain ski areas in the Adirondacks.



I was  at Belleayre late in the season and noticed this shuttle bus driving around, when there were only 20 cars in the parking lot and the lower mountain were closed.  Figured they were union employees so they had to keep them working.  

Interesting.  Can't wait to see the responses on this.  Bring back DMC.


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## ScottySkis (May 29, 2012)

catskillman said:


> Tony Lanza, the Superintendent of New York’s Belleayre Mountain Ski Center for more than a decade, is out of a job.
> 
> spokesperson for the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) confirmed that Lanza was dismissed on Tuesday for what was indicated to be just cause, but refused to elaborate, citing confidentiality in personnel matters. Lanza could not be reached for comment.
> 
> ...



Wow that is interesting,  maybe Dmc could come back as another poster how would anyone know?


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## legalskier (May 29, 2012)

@catskillman:
Would you have a link for the info you included in the third paragraph, because you're referring to old occurrences that were investigated and went nowhere, according to: http://www.watershedpost.com/2012/b...nt-tony-lanza-out-job-and-under-investigation.  This appears to be the current news: _DEC spokesperson Emily DeSantis wrote in an email that the department was in possession of information that warranted Lanza’s dismissal, but would not comment further. “As this is a personnel matter, we cannot provide more information,” DeSantis wrote._ 
Seems like they're playing it close to the vest.



catskillman said:


> I was  at Belleayre late in the season and noticed this shuttle bus driving around, when there were only 20 cars in the parking lot and the lower mountain were closed.  Figured they were union employees so they had to keep them working.



They still use the shuttles to access the lots over at the Tomahawk lift- I've ridden them quite a few times myself. 



Scotty said:


> Wow that is interesting,  maybe Dmc could come back as another poster how would anyone know?



You may be on to something there, Scotty.


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## catskillman (May 29, 2012)

Here is the link, I copied:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2012/05/24/dec-fires-belleayre-superintendent-tony-lanza/

Originally Posted by catskillman  
I was at Belleayre late in the season and noticed this shuttle bus driving around, when there were only 20 cars in the parking lot and the lower mountain were closed. Figured they were union employees so they had to keep them working. 

They still use the shuttles to access the lots over at the Tomahawk lift- I've ridden them quite a few times myself. 


*Tomahawk was not open when I was there.  Only the long quad and the one above the lodge.  *


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## catskillman (May 29, 2012)

Decided to Google during lunch - found some more interesting items.
http://www.watershedpost.com/2012/b...nt-tony-lanza-out-job-and-under-investigation

This link = Last month, acting on a news tip, the Watershed Post filed a Freedom of Information Law (FOIL) request with the Inspector General's office in an effort to find out whether Lanza was being investigated for *ski pass giveaways*. The request was denied, but the Inspector General's office confirmed that the investigation was ongoing.


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## bigbog (May 29, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Wow that is interesting,  maybe Dmc could come back as another poster how would anyone know?



DMC as himself = welcome anytime as far as I'm concerned, but as an honest businessman being a member of the BCG...:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## SIKSKIER (May 29, 2012)

bigbog said:


> DMC as himself = welcome anytime as far as I'm concerned, but as an honest businessman being a member of the BCG...:lol::lol::lol::lol:



Don't want to go off topic but I never knew what happened to DMC.I miss his posts.Is he hanging with the Steez?


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## bvibert (May 29, 2012)

Not to sidetrack this thread, but dmc is welcome to post here, as himself, whenever he wants.


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## Gilligan (May 29, 2012)

A while ago I was wondering where DMC had gone. So I searched out his last few posts. I think this one said it best.
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?p=633175#post633175
This place has chased away a lot of good people.


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## AdironRider (May 29, 2012)

Only a govt run ski area could raise an eyebrow over a GM handing out comps. 

I know Ive heard rumors about an excessive amount of comp tickets to Bell, but come on, the GM of the place can hand out a freebie or two. 

I know absolutely no backstory, full disclosure, but Bell just seems like a total junkshow on all accounts. Clientel only use the cheapest avenue possible to ski, management knows no bounds to stupidity (they had like 50 year round managers!), and the government cant seem to make up its mind. Its got to be in the top five ski areas that is run the worst. That could be a thread...


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## legalskier (May 29, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Bell just seems like a total junkshow on all accounts. Clientel only use the cheapest avenue possible to ski, management knows no bounds to stupidity (they had like 50 year round managers!), and the government cant seem to make up its mind. Its got to be in the top five ski areas that is run the worst....



I doubt the local merchants/craftspeople/hoteliers would call it a junkshow:
*Belleayre contributes $12.5M per year to local economy, SUNY New Paltz study concludes
*Story: http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2012/03/22/news/doc4f69e647c458c408613165.txt

The surrounding communities were grateful that the management dedicated it as a disaster relief center after the devastating floods from Hurricane Irene. As has been mentioned here, the skier visits have gone from 70k/year to 175k if I recall correctly- hardly bad management. I ski there so I must be one of the "clientele" you are calling a cheapskate, but you have no idea how much I spend there & the surrounding area. 
I know of no other ski area discussed on this board that consistently takes the amount of unjustified criticism that Belleayre does. 
I just don't get it.



AdironRider said:


> I know absolutely no backstory


Now there is something we do agree on.


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## ScottySkis (May 30, 2012)

legalskier said:


> I doubt the local merchants/craftspeople/hoteliers would call it a junkshow:
> *Belleayre contributes $12.5M per year to local economy, SUNY New Paltz study concludes
> *Story: http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2012/03/22/news/doc4f69e647c458c408613165.txt
> 
> ...


I'm sure Bell makes more money then 1 of their neighbors,  i think that they try to give skiiers and snowboarders who might like cheap days and masses some times their nothing wrong with it, but they been doing it for long time and regular customer who goes three times may not go if their price just went up.


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## catskillman (May 30, 2012)

And the local economy would be doing more business on closing day if NYS was not paying for free beer for anyone who is at the mountain on closing day.  I heard Tony say 1 year that he bought more beer because business had been good and he did not have enough to give away for free.

Gotta love that reasoning.

Also, what about Tony's golf contest.


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## AdironRider (May 30, 2012)

legalskier said:


> I doubt the local merchants/craftspeople/hoteliers would call it a junkshow:
> *Belleayre contributes $12.5M per year to local economy, SUNY New Paltz study concludes
> *Story: http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2012/03/22/news/doc4f69e647c458c408613165.txt
> 
> ...



Bell mangement you say? What exactly did they need all those year round manager for back in the day? They had like 50 of them. Thats more than Aspen, Vail, JHole, etc. 

Did I say that legalskier is a cheap bastard? No. But as a whole you cannot seriously be arguing the Bell crowd is throwing around cash like in Dumb and Dumber. 

12.5 mill is weak sauce for 175k skier visits. ORDA as a whole is responsible for well over 300 million with about double the skier visits (give or take a couple thou). So how exactly is Bell management killing it for the local economy? I would argue they are doing a terrible job. By the way thats 70 bucks per visit to the local economy, or basically a tank of gas. Thank god for that.


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## ScottySkis (May 30, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Bell mangement you say? What exactly did they need all those year round manager for back in the day? They had like 50 of them. Thats more than Aspen, Vail, JHole, etc.
> 
> Did I say that legalskier is a cheap bastard? No. But as a whole you cannot seriously be arguing the Bell crowd is throwing around cash like in Dumb and Dumber.
> 
> 12.5 mill is weak sauce for 175k skier visits. ORDA as a whole is responsible for well over 300 million with about double the skier visits (give or take a couple thou). So how exactly is Bell management killing it for the local economy? I would argue they are doing a terrible job. By the way thats 70 bucks per visit to the local economy, or basically a tank of gas. Thank god for that.


I understand being cheap is kind of bede's especially when you have to pay for family it adds up, no matter what professional and their is lots of good family and runs for kids their.


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## Nick (May 30, 2012)

bvibert said:


> Not to sidetrack this thread, but dmc is welcome to post here, as himself, whenever he wants.



He actually did make a single post in the thread where Greg posted the video of the Dis at Sundown


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## Nick (May 30, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> A while ago I was wondering where DMC had gone. So I searched out his last few posts. I think this one said it best.
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?p=633175#post633175
> This place has chased away a lot of good people.



Fight the power!!! wait..?? :dunce:


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## gmcunni (May 31, 2012)

does this lower the chances of me scoring a free ticket next season?  will the eliminate the ski free on your birthday program?


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## ScottySkis (May 31, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> does this lower the chances of me scoring a free ticket next season?  will the eliminate the ski free on your birthday program?



That is probably the only good time to ski Bell lol.


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## gmcunni (May 31, 2012)

i'd go back and i'd pay for it.


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## bvibert (May 31, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> i'd go back and i'd pay for it.



Good times!


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## Rambo (May 31, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> does this lower the chances of me scoring a free ticket next season?  *will the eliminate the ski free on your birthday program?*



Belleayre had the, ski-for free on your birthday, for a long time. But I did notice that at some point last season that was changed to Ski for 1/2 off on your birthday.

From the Belleayre website:
BIRTHDAY PROMOTION
Ski for 1/2 off on your birthday

Who knows what ORDA will do.


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## drjeff (May 31, 2012)

As harsh as it may sound,  ANY business(public or private) should be constantly looking at and assesing the need for its staffing levels and also if the manor in which the "boss" is leading that company.  If the staffing levels are inappropriate and/or the direction that the company is headed isn't in agreement with what the owners feel it should be, then steps need to be taken.  Sometimes those steps may mean people loose their job, other times it may mean that the company makes a change in the "direction" that they're headed.  If a business continues to do something say "just because we've done it that way for 20 years" doesn't always mean that that's the right way to be doing things today.  And there are plenty of times, where unless one has been in the situation where they have a payroll to make that they really can;t comprehend that sometimes the descisions need to be made for business reasons, not emotional reasons


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## bobbutts (May 31, 2012)

loosing a job isn't nearly as bad as losing it at least


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## marcski (May 31, 2012)

drjeff said:


> As harsh as it may sound,  ANY business(public or private) should be constantly looking at and assesing the need for its staffing levels and also if the manor in which the "boss" is leading that company.  If the staffing levels are inappropriate and/or the direction that the company is headed isn't in agreement with what the owners feel it should be, then steps need to be taken.  Sometimes those steps may mean people loose their job, other times it may mean that the company makes a change in the "direction" that they're headed.  If a business continues to do something say "just because we've done it that way for 20 years" doesn't always mean that that's the right way to be doing things today.  And there are plenty of times, where unless one has been in the situation where they have a payroll to make that they really can;t comprehend that sometimes the descisions need to be made for business reasons, not emotional reasons



Agreed.  But, here, it's a state-run ski area, not a for-profit corporation.  I think that makes some difference.


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## Puck it (May 31, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> A while ago I was wondering where DMC had gone. So I searched out his last few posts. I think this one said it best.
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?p=633175#post633175
> This place has chased away a lot of good people.


 
I miss the lil' Ewok too.  No one to bust on!!!!


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## drjeff (May 31, 2012)

marcski said:


> Agreed.  But, here, it's a state-run ski area, not a for-profit corporation.  I think that makes some difference.



I'm guessing that even New York State, in it's current budget situation, let alone with the ORDA changes with respect to Belleayre, is having to take a closer look at how it's running it's various entities.

I'm sure that there's more than 1 person up in Albany who's trying to figure out how to spend that LIMITED pool of taxpayer money that they have to work with for the entire state, if they might be able to squeeze an extra few million out of the state's "recreation" budget and shift it to say the "food stamps", "medicaid" or even the "school aid" part of the budget.


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## ScottySkis (May 31, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I'm guessing that even New York State, in it's current budget situation, let alone with the ORDA changes with respect to Belleayre, is having to take a closer look at how it's running it's various entities.
> 
> I'm sure that there's more than 1 person up in Albany who's trying to figure out how to spend that LIMITED pool of taxpayer money that they have to work with for the entire state, if they might be able to squeeze an extra few million out of the state's "recreation" budget and shift it to say the "food stamps", "medicaid" or even the "school aid" part of the budget.



You mean a political person who cares about his people in NY I like to know their name.


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## x10003q (May 31, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> 12.5 mill is weak sauce for 175k skier visits. ORDA as a whole is responsible for well over 300 million with about double the skier visits (give or take a couple thou). So how exactly is Bell management killing it for the local economy? I would argue they are doing a terrible job. By the way thats 70 bucks per visit to the local economy, or basically a tank of gas. Thank god for that.



Silly comparison. It is not just about skiing. 

To make a valid comparison we need the Bellayre region to do the following:

Build facilities for bobsled, ski jumping, speed skating, xc skiing, and ice hockey.
Hold 200 plus regional, national, and international comps every year.
Convince NYS to build a 90,000 sq ft conf center.
Hold the Olympics twice.
Build a National Training Center for USA winter sports teams.
Have Belleayre triple in size.
Have NYS buy Hunter or Windham (ORDA has WF and Gore).

When all the above happens we can compare the 2 regions for revenue.


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## Nick (May 31, 2012)

Any indication on his replacement or was it just manpower reduction? Sorry I'm kinda of skimming here.


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## AdironRider (May 31, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Silly comparison. It is not just about skiing.
> 
> To make a valid comparison we need the Bellayre region to do the following:
> 
> ...




Im not saying they are going to match them for every venue, but ORDA does 2800% more in economic activity than Bell, thats not all coming from ski jumps and broke athletes training for a biathalon. 2800%. 

Or how bout this comparison. 12.5 million is what one decent hotel (100 rooms or so) will GROSS in one winter season. Not a full year, not a bunch of different places, thats one ok hotel at 80% occupancy. Again, Bell's economic impact is pretty much NON-EXISTANT given their size according to the homers (179k skier visits).


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## ScottySkis (May 31, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Im not saying they are going to match them for every venue, but ORDA does 2800% more in economic activity than Bell, thats not all coming from ski jumps and broke athletes training for a biathalon. 2800%.
> 
> Or how bout this comparison. 12.5 million is what one decent hotel (100 rooms or so) will GROSS in one winter season. Not a full year, not a bunch of different places, thats one ok hotel at 80% occupancy. Again, Bell's economic impact is pretty much NON-EXISTANT given their size according to the homers (179k skier ivisits).



The towns around Bell are kind of pour,  lake placid is more middle class, so i'm sure that helps orda out.


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## oldtimer (Jun 1, 2012)

"Or how bout this comparison. 12.5 million is what one decent hotel (100 rooms or so) will GROSS in one winter season. Not a full year, not a bunch of different places, thats one ok hotel at 80% occupancy. Again, Bell's economic impact is pretty much NON-EXISTANT given their size according to the homers (179k skier visits).[/QUOTE]


I hate to bring facts or math into any forum discussion as it spoils the fun.  BUT, 12.5 million?
Say 100 beds-  that means gross of $125,000/room for the ski season.  IF we assumed 80% occupancy over a 120 day season (ridiculous on the face of it), you are looking at Grossing $1,300/room night at a hotel in upstate NY?  This would make hoteliers very, very happy.  From my experience in VT, 80% occupancy would be a dream come true for any hospitality establishment.  Midweek is not pretty during non-holiday weeks.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Im not saying they are going to match them for every venue, but ORDA does 2800% more in economic activity than Bell, thats not all coming from ski jumps and broke athletes training for a biathalon. 2800%.
> 
> Or how bout this comparison. 12.5 million is what one decent hotel (100 rooms or so) will GROSS in one winter season. Not a full year, not a bunch of different places, thats one ok hotel at 80% occupancy. Again, Bell's economic impact is pretty much NON-EXISTANT given their size according to the homers (179k skier visits).



your view of hotel economic activity is tremendously skewed by working at the Four Seasons in Jackson Hole.

There is not a single hotel in all of the Northeast Ski Country that does $12.5M in revenue in a year, never mind one ski season.  I worked at the highest revenue hotel in the state of Vermont in 2005, the now Hilton on Burlington's waterfront.  93% occupancy for the year.  Average yearly occupancy rate for most ski town hotels in the Northeast is more like 50%.  In 2005 that hotel did $15.5M in revenue that year.  $11M from rooms, $4.5M from F&B.


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## catskillman (Jun 1, 2012)

Not a RIF termination, it was for cause.  

Major conflcit of interest & giving away free season passes to questionable individuals are the reports.

He's screwed, where is he going to find a job now.  He'll just have to live up his NYS pention which I am sure is more than sufficient.


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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> your view of hotel economic activity is tremendously skewed by working at the Four Seasons in Jackson Hole.
> 
> There is not a single hotel in all of the Northeast Ski Country that does $12.5M in revenue in a year, never mind one ski season.  I worked at the highest revenue hotel in the state of Vermont in 2005, the now Hilton on Burlington's waterfront.  93% occupancy for the year.  Average yearly occupancy rate for most ski town hotels in the Northeast is more like 50%.  In 2005 that hotel did $15.5M in revenue that year.  $11M from rooms, $4.5M from F&B.



That was 10 years ago pretty much at this point. Inflation at work and all that.   

The Four Seasons does quadruple the numbers Im talking about, I already took that into account. 

Even if you double my estimates, Bell is still pitiful. Thats the argument, not the exact numbers. 179k skier visits is solidly in the mid-tier level for Northeast ski resorts, and their economic impact is probably at the level of Magic/Burke et al that do 100k less in terms of skier visits. Thats the point.


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## catskills (Jun 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Im not saying they are going to match them for every venue, but ORDA does 2800% more in economic activity than Bell.........



Everyone does math a little different these days.  The 6 million dollar question is this.  

Does ORDA Whiteface and Gore make a profit without the $6.6 million in funding the state provides to ORDA every year.   ?

BTW didn't Gore just build a new lodge?  Who paid for that new Gore lodge exactly when NY state was slashing the state's government budget.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 5, 2012)

catskills said:


> Everyone does math a little different these days.  The 6 million dollar question is this.
> 
> Does ORDA Whiteface and Gore make a profit without the $6.6 million in funding the state provides to ORDA every year.   ?
> 
> BTW didn't Gore just build a new lodge?  Who paid for that new Gore lodge exactly when NY state was slashing the state's government budget.



exactly.  Orda isnt on the state budget.


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## skidbump (Jun 5, 2012)

catskillman said:


> Not a RIF termination, it was for cause.
> 
> Major conflcit of interest & giving away free season passes to questionable individuals are the reports.
> 
> He's screwed, where is he going to find a job now.  He'll just have to live up his NYS pention which I am sure is more than sufficient.



No one actually knows Why Tony was fired. For cause... is to try and deny unemployment benefits.
His pension was not very much his tenure with state was only he length of employment at Belleayre.


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## x10003q (Jun 5, 2012)

catskills said:


> Everyone does math a little different these days.  The 6 million dollar question is this.
> 
> Does ORDA Whiteface and Gore make a profit without the $6.6 million in funding the state provides to ORDA every year.   ?
> 
> BTW didn't Gore just build a new lodge?  Who paid for that new Gore lodge exactly when NY state was slashing the state's government budget.



Maybe you should read your own link before you ask questions.
Quoted from the link:
"If that cut stays intact, we'd have to close all the venues because none of the venues, other than Whiteface and Gore, make money," Martens said at Tuesday's annual state Adirondack Park Local Government Day Conference in Lake Placid. "But what they do is they bring in hundreds of events every year that fill the hotel rooms, fill the restaurants and create about $350 million annually in economic impact." 

What new lodge are you talking about at Gore? They refurbished the old red gondola base building summer 2007 in partnership with Lincoln Logs. The main Lodge at Gore was incredibly crowded due to the increased skier visits. 

The fact that Gore/WF/Belle are NYS owned does not change the constant need to replace, upgrade, and imrpove the mountains. All 3 have increased skier visits substantially.


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## AdironRider (Jun 5, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Maybe you should read your own link before you ask questions.
> Quoted from the link:
> "If that cut stays intact, we'd have to close all the venues because none of the venues, other than Whiteface and Gore, make money," Martens said at Tuesday's annual state Adirondack Park Local Government Day Conference in Lake Placid. "But what they do is they bring in hundreds of events every year that fill the hotel rooms, fill the restaurants and create about $350 million annually in economic impact."
> 
> ...



I also find it funny noone seems to have any argument other than to attempt to discredit mine. 

Hotel numbers are off, now its is ORDA actually profitable. Thats not the debate, the debate is that for an area of Bell's size and visitation, their economic impact is next to nil.


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## catskills (Jun 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> ..... Thats not the debate, the debate is that for an area of Bell's size and visitation, their economic impact is next to nil.



You got any proof or do we just got to believe your statement because you say so?

Is $12.5 million per year just chump change?

Belleayre Mountain Ski Center contributes $12.5M per year to local economy, SUNY New Paltz study concludes


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## AdironRider (Jun 7, 2012)

Are you retarded or just incapable of reading an entire thread?


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## Harvey (Jun 7, 2012)

There's no question in my mind that Bell could be much more successful if it had the kind of investment that Whiteface and Gore get.  Whether you agree with the concept of state ownership of ski areas or not, all reasonable people would have to admit that ski areas aren't viable without continuous investment in infrastructure.  Bell really had very little of that. 

On the other hand the DEC's laissez faire management of Bell also included looking the other way on a significant amount of spending in other areas. The ticket giveaways were more than just the GM giving away a few tickets.  I understand why Tony would give away 16,000 tickets. He had no new investment to draw people and nobody seemed to care that he was ticket dumping.

But it's also easy to understand why taxpayers (Hunter, Windham, Plattekill) would resent a ski area that they were subsidizing, undercutting them in a competitive marketplace.  If it was me I'd be furious.

I think Bell was ready for a change.  While there is bound to be pain ahead, the only other choice was probably more painful. In some ways it reminds me of America.  Wake up and face hard reality now, or you're screwed.  

I hope for the best for Bell.


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## catskills (Jun 7, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are you retarded or just incapable of reading an entire thread?


This place is going down fast.  Bye to everyone.  I am out of here.  Enjoy talking to the likes of AdironRider.


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## ScottySkis (Jun 8, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are you retarded or just incapable of reading an entire thread?


I'm not one to criticism someone but you know there may people on these fourms who have mentally retarded family and friends and maybe you use different word next time thanks.


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## bvibert (Jun 8, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are you retarded or just incapable of reading an entire thread?



How about if we try to have a discussion without resorting to name calling?  Are we still in middle school?


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## AdironRider (Jun 8, 2012)

bvibert said:


> How about if we try to have a discussion without resorting to name calling?  Are we still in middle school?



If you want to be technical I asked him a question, and a valid one at that considering it is pretty clear he didnt bother to read the thread prior to his post. The link he posted was what started the debate to begin with. 

If that question is going to cause someone emotional distress, yes, clearly we are still in middle school. 

Not everything is something thats "offensive", but if I have totally ruined your day, then Im sorry.


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## ScottySkis (Jun 8, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> If that question is going to cause someone emotional distress, yes, clearly we are still in middle school.
> 
> Not everything is something thats "offensive", but if I have totally ruined your day, then Im sorry.



Well my sister is severely mentally retarded and you do offend me, but she still the happiest person i know and love.


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## AdironRider (Jun 8, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Well my sister is severely mentally retarded and you do offend me, but she still the happiest person i know and love.




I wasnt talking about your sister, or you even. 

There needs to be some connection before crying foul IMO.


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## ScottySkis (Jun 8, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I wasnt talking about your sister, or you even.
> O
> There needs to be some connection before crying foul IMO.


 thanks for PM, its understandable no worries i respond later sorry for thread bump.


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## Nick (Jun 8, 2012)

sigh


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## JimG. (Jun 8, 2012)

It's summer.

Yay!


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## Mapnut (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm late jumping into this thread, but can't Belleayre's relative lack of economic impact be attributed to the absence of anything remotely resembling a town within 10 miles?  Lake Placid is clearly an economic engine, benefiting all the more by filling all those beds in winter.  I'm not sure about Gore, North Creek doesn't seem to benefit much from it, but how about Lake George?


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## skiersleft (Jun 11, 2012)

Mapnut said:


> I'm late jumping into this thread, but can't Belleayre's relative lack of economic impact be attributed to the absence of anything remotely resembling a town within 10 miles?  Lake Placid is clearly an economic engine, benefiting all the more by filling all those beds in winter.  I'm not sure about Gore, North Creek doesn't seem to benefit much from it, but how about Lake George?



Lake George is dead in winter. Most hotels close entirely or at least midweek. Most businesses also close. I stay there when I ski Gore because the hotels that are open are incredibly cheap given that it's their off-season.


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## legalskier (Jun 11, 2012)

Mapnut said:


> I'm late jumping into this thread, but can't Belleayre's relative lack of economic impact be attributed to the absence of anything remotely resembling a town within 10 miles?



I doubt the townspeople of Pine Hill, Fleischmanns, Shandaken, Arkville and Margaretville would agree that they are "anything remotely resembling a town."  If you take the time to stop and patronize the B&Bs, hotels, restaurants, pubs, bakeries, farm stands, artists, craftspeople, etc, as I always try to do,  you'll see they're pleased that Belleayre acts as a multi-millipon dollar  economic engine for many miles along the Route 28 corridor.
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2012/03/22/news/doc4f69e647c458c408613165.txt
That, despite the fact that development is highly restricted in the Catskill Park.


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## Mapnut (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, villages at least.  For Belleayre, skiers from the metropolitan area have the option of day-tripping, while if you drive all the way to Whiteface or Gore you pretty much have to stay over.  My point was meant to be that Belleayre can't be expected to contribute more than it does.

By the way, in my definition a town has to have most of the following:  An elementary school, a supermarket (general store N.G.), a hardware store, a post office (and a zip code), selectmen, and not being part of a larger entity called a town.


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2012)

Mapnut said:


> Well, villages at least.  For Belleayre, skiers from the metropolitan area have the option of day-tripping, while if you drive all the way to Whiteface or Gore you pretty much have to stay over.  My point was meant to be that Belleayre can't be expected to contribute more than it does.
> QUOTE]
> 
> That scenario (Bell, not Gore/Whiteface) describes pretty much every major New England player as well, excluding for arguments sake Sugarloaf and Saddleback. I dont know the stats for every single player in the market, but I do know for a fact that several "daytrip" type places you describe do well over 70 bucks per skier visit in economic impact. So whats their secret?


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## Harvey (Jun 11, 2012)

I believe Gore is the biggest employer in North Creek in the winter, and a significant employer year round.  Gore has a major impact on North Creek and Warren County.  Real estate sales, groceries, construction trades, restaurants.  The business owners I know definitely look forward to ski season.  We own property BECAUSE of winter activity, but visit in other seasons because we own property.

I know less about Bell, but I do know that when dramatically reduced ticket giveaways this season, business owners in the area wrote an letter to the Governor asking him to allow the practice again. (BTW I strongly disagree with ticket dumping).

Proximity is helpful but it isn't everything. Whiteface is a distance from Lake Placid but still crucial to the town.


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## Mapnut (Jun 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Mapnut said:
> 
> 
> > I dont know the stats for every single player in the market, but I do know for a fact that several "daytrip" type places you describe do well over 70 bucks per skier visit in economic impact. So whats their secret?
> ...


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## bvibert (Jun 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> If you want to be technical I asked him a question, and a valid one at that considering it is pretty clear he didnt bother to read the thread prior to his post. The link he posted was what started the debate to begin with.
> 
> If that question is going to cause someone emotional distress, yes, clearly we are still in middle school.
> 
> Not everything is something thats "offensive", but if I have totally ruined your day, then Im sorry.



Are you really going to attempt to debate this?  Your post was uncalled for.  Grow up.


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## x10003q (Jun 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> That scenario (Bell, not Gore/Whiteface) describes pretty much every major New England player as well, excluding for arguments sake Sugarloaf and Saddleback. I dont know the stats for every single player in the market, but I do know for a fact that several "daytrip" type places you describe do well over 70 bucks per skier visit in economic impact. So whats their secret?




Share your "facts". Which "daytrip" type places are you comparing Belleayre to?


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## dmc (Jun 12, 2012)

Mapnut said:


> Well, villages at least.  For Belleayre, skiers from the metropolitan area have the option of day-tripping, while if you drive all the way to Whiteface or Gore you pretty much have to stay over.  My point was meant to be that Belleayre can't be expected to contribute more than it does.
> 
> By the way, in my definition a town has to have most of the following:  An elementary school, a supermarket (general store N.G.), a hardware store, a post office (and a zip code), selectmen, and not being part of a larger entity called a town.




i think that people need a reason to stop driving to spend cash locally.

Being that it's completely feasible to fill up with cheap gas in NJ and do the whole trip without stopping then gassing up again in NJ - I don't see any people stopping for gas and stuff in NY...  That and the fact that lot's of Bell peeps pack lunches..

It just doesn't seem to be the local economic generator that everyone makes it out to be...


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## AdironRider (Jun 12, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Share your "facts". Which "daytrip" type places are you comparing Belleayre to?



Does anyone have anything to back up their arguments rather than try and discredit mine? You cannot seriously think that Bell is doing even an ok job in this department. 

Why all the defense for one of the worst run ski resorts in the Northeast?


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## ScottySkis (Jun 12, 2012)

NY State is one of the worst at running state government so their not good at running ski area


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## dmc (Jun 13, 2012)

Scotty said:


> NY State is one of the worst at running state government so their not good at running ski area



Now this is where I want to see facts...


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## ScottySkis (Jun 13, 2012)

http://ecmappdlv02.law.nyu.edu/ecm_...policy/documents/documents/ecm_pro_060703.pdf maybe not perfect fact but there many things if I did not have work to do today I would search for more


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## skunkape (Jul 19, 2012)

Maybe Dean Gitter will give him a job....


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## catskillman (Feb 12, 2013)

skunkape said:


> Maybe Dean Gitter will give him a job....



Did anyone give Tony a job?  What is he doing?


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## Harvey (Feb 12, 2013)

catskillman said:


> Did anyone give Tony a job?  What is he doing?



I heard that Tony is a Bell regular. A passholder.

Anyone know if that is legit?


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## catskillman (Feb 13, 2013)

Harvey44 said:


> I heard that Tony is a Bell regular. A passholder.
> 
> Anyone know if that is legit?



If true that is crazy.  If I was fired for ethics and those other reasons I would not want to be showing my face there.  Any legit company would issue a no trespass warrant at a minimum


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## AdironRider (Feb 13, 2013)

Considering its still a public asset, can they ban him, considering he does still pay taxes, etc? That would seem to be a worse outcome than some ex employee plunking down his own money on a ski pass.


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## Harvey (Feb 13, 2013)

catskillman said:


> If true that is crazy.  If I was fired for ethics and those other reasons I would not want to be showing my face there.  Any legit company would issue a no trespass warrant at a minimum



Does seem insane. Hard to believe to that if he was skiing, that somebody somehwere wouldn't have posted about it.

If I hadn't heard it from a highly credible source, I wouldn't have thrown it out.


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## Gunny J (Feb 13, 2013)

I saw Tony skiing the day I skied Belleayre right before Christmas.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 13, 2013)

He could just.ski Hunter, Platty, and Windham and not get in trouble.


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## catskills (Feb 13, 2013)

Make no mistake its hard to argue with success.  Tony Lanza increased Belleayre skier and rider visits from less than 90,000 to a high of over 180,000, which has significantly helped improve the economy in the route 28 corridor.  Most area businesses have given Tony Lanza full credit for the improvements and customer growth at Belleayre over the last decade. 

Tony Lanza's current employment is not far from Belleayre.  
http://www.emersonresort.com/management-team


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