# All-Mountain.....Poles?



## dl (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey all - I have no desire to alienate all the forum participants here, so let me ask for some guidance. 

I'm working with a company that has developed what we're calling all-mountain poles. I believe the technology is something that many forum members would benefit from or find interesting, especially those with an interest in powder and back country skiing. I'd like to share information on these - what's the best way to do this without pissing people off? Should I talk about them in this part of the forum or the gear section? 

Quick background - I'm the founder of Snowshack (www.snowshack.com). I sold the company about 3 years ago. I have been following this forum for many years though I don't post a ton. 

Thanks for any advice you can offer.


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## riverc0il (Feb 8, 2011)

I can't believe anything could improve upon the BD Flicklock design. Go ahead, give us your best. I'd certainly like to hear this one.


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## Cannonball (Feb 8, 2011)

I found a pair of Scott poles in 1993.  Then I found a pair of Leki telescoping poles the same year.  I've been using one pair for lift-served and the other for BC for 18 years.  Never once in that time have I wished there was a better technology.  So I am really interested to hear about this breakthrough.  Go for it.


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## dl (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks Steve. The secret is not in its ability to adjust in length though it can as they come in 2 and 3 section versions. The ability to adjust the basket size on the fly is the real differentiator. With a flick of the shaft, the user can trigger a spring that will deploy 3 PowderBlades so that the pole instantly becomes a backcountry worthy. When you return to the frontside, you simply retract the PowderBlades and you have what looks/feels like a traditional pole. 

The poles are from a company called Orbital Skiing - www.orbitalskiing.com. There are two videos on the home page that show how these work. 

Bring on the questions.


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## crank (Feb 8, 2011)

Question:  I have powder baskets on my poles and they work just fine on, well, not powder.  So why would I need to shift back?


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## riverc0il (Feb 8, 2011)

For myself, I can't see it being useful. I do a variety of skiing. Early season WROD, to lift serviced powder, to earned turn (sidecountry and true backcountry). I have always used the mid-sized BD basket on my touring poles for all occasions. I have extra big baskets for powder days. Never bother swapping them out even if I will only be touring in deep snow. Only takes a minute to swap out both baskets on both poles but I still never bother. 

For this to work on the marketplace, the telescoping device would have to work at least as good as a BD Flicklock (a tall order) and for folks to see a need for a larger than mid-sized basket. I do a heck of a lot of skiing that involves very deep pow in the woods in between groomed trails. I don't think I would bother stopping to adjust my baskets every time I popped out of the woods.

Maybe other folks might think differently. But I wouldn't even consider it and I would definitely be in your target market, I think.


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## andyzee (Feb 8, 2011)

dl said:


> Thanks Steve. The secret is not in its ability to adjust in length though it can as they come in 2 and 3 section versions. The ability to adjust the basket size on the fly is the real differentiator. With a flick of the shaft, the user can trigger a spring that will deploy 3 PowderBlades so that the pole instantly becomes a backcountry worthy. When you return to the frontside, you simply retract the PowderBlades and you have what looks/feels like a traditional pole.
> 
> The poles are from a company called Orbital Skiing - www.orbitalskiing.com. There are two videos on the home page that show how these work.
> 
> Bring on the questions.




OK, cool, not that I ever worry much about changing baskets. Now tell us about the poles themselves.Construction, material, locking mechanism... Oh, by the way, I thought this thread was about me as I'm an all mountain Pole.


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## dl (Feb 8, 2011)

crank said:


> Question:  I have powder baskets on my poles and they work just fine on, well, not powder.  So why would I need to shift back?



The people we've talked to and shown these to like the option to have one basket that can do the frontside or the backside without the need to swap baskets. It won't be for everyone but most that have seen it like it.


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## Cannonball (Feb 8, 2011)

dl said:


> Bring on the questions.



Your website describes the inspirational moment:  _"It was on a heli-trip that Orbital Skiing founder Tom Virostek realized there was nothing that gave skier’s poles the instant adjustability needed to meet the changing conditions. Whether it was traversing across the ridge or picking himself up after a fall, his poles plunged deeply and were effectively useless."_

Question:  Did Tom go on a heli trip without powder baskets on his poles?  It seems like this may have been his problem.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I've never had this problem.  My old poles work great in powder and on groomers.  If I suddenly start having this problem I hope I can come up with a solution for under $200.  It seems like you may be trying to create a perceived need rather than filling a real existing one.


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## riverc0il (Feb 8, 2011)

Wow, $189 for a pair of poles? I could get a pair of Whippets for that much!


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## dl (Feb 8, 2011)

andyzee said:


> OK, cool, not that I ever worry much about changing baskets. Now tell us about the poles themselves.Construction, material, locking mechanism... Oh, by the way, I thought this thread was about me as I'm an all mountain Pole.



The poles are carbon fiber with a tunsten/titanium ice tip. They come in 2 section and 3 section versions. The three section poles have a touring grip (foam down the top of the shaft). We're using a twist-lock to lock in the length.


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## snowmonster (Feb 8, 2011)

I just want to know how the trigger mechanism will work. It'll have to be bomb-proof if the intention is to use it also in the backcountry.


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## dl (Feb 8, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> I just want to know how the trigger mechanism will work. It'll to be bomb-proof if the intention is to use it also in the backcountry.



There's a titanium spring that deploys the blades. When the blades are retracted they site at a 45 degree angle and effectively block the snow and ice from clogging up the system. The blades themselves are also designed not to retain snow. The testing we've done has shown the poles to stand up well in the deep stuff.


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## andyzee (Feb 8, 2011)

Gotta agree with riverc0il, would rather put that kind of money towards something more worthwhile.


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## Puck it (Feb 8, 2011)

I think these will be for the beautiful people at Vail. Die hards will not spend that kind of cash for poles that break.  I break or bend poles pretty frequently.  I found it hard to spend $80 on BD poles.


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## snowmonster (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks for the response. You may want to consider the price points for these. $180 is too expensive for a tool that will eventually get bent in a fall.


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## Cannonball (Feb 8, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> .... $180 is too expensive for a tool that will eventually get bent in a fall.



Agree 100%.....but actually it's BREAK not bend (carbon fiber)....even worse.


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## riverc0il (Feb 8, 2011)

One great thing about the BD Flicklock is if you bend a bottom shaft, you can get a replacement bottom shaft on the cheap. I've bent a few lower shafts but never an upper shaft. I am constantly wrapping poles around trees in the woods and its nice just to toss in a new $10 shaft when that eventuality finally happens. With an $180 carbon pole, that definitely becomes a deal breaker.

Tough sell here at AZ as most guys here ski clown poles with the smallest basket possible. :lol:


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## powpig2002 (Feb 8, 2011)

send me a pair to review. $189 must be one AWESOME pole


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2011)

I have the Telemark Masters 3pc pole and its aweful, will be looking to get the BD pole...less moving parts


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## dl (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. I expected price shock though when compared to a high-end pole from Leki or BD - offering full carbon (vs alum/carbon on many) AND the basket system, it's (at the high end but) competitive. Clearly it's not for everyone. We'd love to have the buying/production economies that BD or Leki have but as a startup that's not realistic. 

The reaction we've seen when people actually see the poles has been very positive. It's simple to understand and use. And surprisingly, I've had very few people push back on price. Maybe I hang out with the right crowd? 

So here's another challenge for the group - who is best within this group to test a pair of these? Unfortunately I don't have the ability to lend out 10 pairs of poles so who do you think can give these a good, fair test? We're just about ready to ship production poles so based on your feedback I'll figure out where to send a test pair. 

Thanks again.


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 9, 2011)

Personally I agree with the rest on it being a expensive gimick.  Of the people on here to test I would think Riverc0il.  He does lots of touring and resort skiing.


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## WJenness (Feb 9, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Personally I agree with the rest on it being a expensive gimick.  Of the people on here to test I would think Riverc0il.  He does lots of touring and resort skiing.



I agree with the nomination of River if he is interested.

He'll be brutally honest, that much is for sure.

-w


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## WJenness (Feb 9, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, $189 for a pair of poles? I could get a pair of Whippets for that much!



But just how many Devo albums do you actually need?

Ba-dum, dum...

-w


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## o3jeff (Feb 9, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Of the people on here to test I would think Riverc0il.  He does lots of touring and resort skiing.



Agree, RivercOil. He always gives and in depth honest review/opinion.


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## Greg (Feb 9, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> Agree, RivercOil. He always gives and in depth honest review/opinion.



Agreed. Provided he includes a POV vid in his review. :razz: 

dl - sorry your PMs got buried. Thanks for clearing with me before posting. You'll get good feedback from AZers if anything....


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## snowmonster (Feb 9, 2011)

dl said:


> The three section poles have a touring grip (foam down the top of the shaft). We're using a twist-lock to lock in the length.



dl, the experience with twist-lock poles is that they tended to collapse. This is why BD's flicklocks were considered an improvement over the previous design. Is there a modification in the twist-lock to prevent collapsing/telescoping? 



dl said:


> So here's another challenge for the group - who is best within this group to test a pair of these?



I also vote for rivercoil. He does a fair amount of bc and resort skiing and is a straight-shooter.


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## madriverjack (Feb 9, 2011)

I vote for rivercoil.


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## Puck it (Feb 9, 2011)

It is going to be hard to improve on the the BD designed locking.  They are easily adjusted without removing glove and stay locked.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 9, 2011)

Good luck with this Dave.Its a cool idea that I'm afraid might not have a lot of market appeal except to gadget geeks like myself.I see Dan Egan produced the video and endorsed the product.


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## dropKickMurphy (Feb 9, 2011)

Puck it said:


> It is going to be hard to improve on the the BD designed locking.  They are easily adjusted without removing glove and stay locked.



That's my experience,  also.

Unlike my Leki trekking poles (with the twist-lock design)  which have collapsed on me several times when descending a steep rocky section with 40+ pounds on my back.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2011)

twist locks come loose (as do my telemark masters)...a flip lock is best


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## riverc0il (Feb 9, 2011)

WJenness said:


> He'll be brutally honest, that much is for sure.


 :lol:

I am one opinionated SOB!

Perhaps too much. I have already formulated a pretty strong opinion about these poles.

As others have noted, I also have had issues with twist locks not working (both ways, coming loose and getting stuck). 

As much as I am honored by the chorus of nominations, I am not interested. I can't see myself being in situations in which I would want to use an adjustable basket and I don't want to be skinning and not be able to trust the locking mechanism. I've been in a steep gully with a broken twist lock mechanism before, kinda frustrating. I just love my BD Traverses too much to part with them even for a demo.


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## Cannonball (Feb 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> :lol:
> 
> I am one opinionated SOB!
> 
> ...



I get all of RC's concerns, and I agree that I wouldn't trust this new concept on a critical tour without testing.

But cripes....I'd be happy to test them.  I tour rolling small vert NH BC almost every day (probably their biggest challenge). And it's been deep enough lately to put them to a real test.  I roam close enough to civilization that if they completely failed I'd get out OK.  I also ski on-piste 5 times/week with significant sidecountry to test the off/on issue.

I tour with old Leki twist-locks and my primary touring partner skis with BD FlickLocks.  So I can envision a three way head to head comparison. 

I am also an opinionated SOB and have formulated (and expressed) strong opinions about this concept.  But I am also extremely fair and willing to objectively evaluate the pros and cons of just about anything (heck that's what I do for a living as a scientist).  I have no reason to bash undeservedly.  If RC seriously declines the nomination and you want to get them out there, PM me.


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## riverc0il (Feb 10, 2011)

I nominate Cannonball.


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## WJenness (Feb 11, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I nominate Cannonball.



I move that all riverc0il nominations be moved to Cannonball in recognition of riverc0il's nomination of Cannonball.

Do I have a second?

-w


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## bvibert (Feb 11, 2011)

WJenness said:


> I move that all riverc0il nominations be moved to Cannonball in recognition of riverc0il's nomination of Cannonball.
> 
> Do I have a second?
> 
> -w



Second


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## WJenness (Feb 11, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Second



All in favor?

(And remember, Brian and I are likely bigger than you... :razz

-w


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## snowmonster (Feb 11, 2011)

Aye.


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## o3jeff (Feb 11, 2011)

Aye, my vote change to CB.


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 11, 2011)

WJenness said:


> All in favor?
> 
> (And remember, Brian and I are likely bigger than you... :razz
> 
> -w



Im a big guy and I fight dirty!


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## billski (Feb 11, 2011)

$10 that cannonball breaks them!  :razz:

I would nominate J. Spin to review the poles.  He spends a lot of time BC and just as much with his kids on groomers.

Anyways, I'm late to the party.  I don't break poles getting on/off the lift anymore, although I have been known to forget them in the parking lot. :dunce:

I don't ski at a level to even notice the difference between one type of composite material and another, plus my absent-mindedness conspire to  not spend the extra money.  

Second, I have two pair of poles - the small basked type for hardpack, groomer or bump skiing and a second pair with wide baskets for skiing powder, which for _me_, happens about three times a year in New England.  When I ski west, I rent anyways, getting the right equipment for the day's conditions.

I'd be interested in hearing more about dl's survey methodology.  How did he select his subjects?  What regions?  How many?  You know what they say, *Lies, damned lies, and statistics.*


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## Cannonball (Feb 11, 2011)

billski said:


> $10 that cannonball breaks them!  :razz:



Although I ski hard I'm pretty easy on gear.  Other than snapping a Naxo this year I haven't broken a piece of equipment in a long time. Last time I broke a pole was 1993.  My first, last, and only significant gear breakage was in 1986 when I broke a ski, a binding toe piece...and both shins.


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## Puck it (Feb 11, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> Although I ski hard I'm pretty easy on gear. Other than snapping a Naxo this year I haven't broken a piece of equipment in a long time. Last time I broke a pole was 1993. My first, last, and only significant gear breakage was in 1986 when I broke a ski, a binding toe piece...and both shins.


 
Sounds like you would not be a good candidate then.  I break things every year.  Snapped off two heel pieces on the Icelantics last year.  Ripped softshell at Alta also.  Nothing this year though.  I'm due.


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## Cannonball (Feb 11, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Sounds like you would not be a good candidate then.  I break things every year.  Snapped off two heel pieces on the Icelantics last year.  Ripped softshell at Alta also.  Nothing this year though.  I'm due.



If the goal is to test their breakability then you are probably right.  I was thinking it was a test of the new basket concept and overall performance.


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## powpig2002 (Feb 13, 2011)

i nominate powpig 2002. he is totally awesome


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