# Gas Prices = Apprehension for Next Season?



## askstowell (Jun 10, 2008)

Don't know if I'm alone on this one but I'm starting to get nervous regarding next season and impact gas prices will have on our skiing.  Thinking that we might not be making as many trips up north to NH sites and Sunday River in ME which is a shame as 11 year old daughter is really starting to take off skill and ability wise.  Alternatively I think local areas near us like Nashoba and Wachusett will be even more jammed (if that's even possible at Wachusett) making for a not-so-fun or safe experience.

Just getting concerned as gas creeps over the $4 per gallon mark as we also get worried too about other budget impacts like what home heating oil is going to cost next winter.  Trying to remain positive and focusing on keeping daughter on track for 40 days or so again next season between race days, practice days, and just fun days with dad bumming around somewhere.

Anyone else worried?


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## wa-loaf (Jun 10, 2008)

Definitely on my mind. I'm thinking about working at WA next season to save cash on a pass and to have some extra dough for heading up north.


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## andyzee (Jun 10, 2008)

And life goes on. La de da de de, la de da de da


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## drjeff (Jun 10, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Not worried per say .. I will be planning more.. I bet the ski areas are probably becoming more concerned especially if gas gets in the $5 or $6 range.. bookings just might increase because people will want to stay longer and not make multiple trips during the season.. gas prices might figure in to my future season pass purchases..



The other ski area related worry you need to factor in also has to be the cost of diesel, especially if you've got a resort that relies alot on the diesel powered rental air compressors that are used for many air/water snowmaking systems.  Sure I'd bet that when your talking about purchasing potential 100's of thousands of gallons that you get a discount over what we see at gas stations, but the bottom line is diesel is way up over last year, so all those cats are more expensive to run, and for those resorts that rely on the diesel powered compressors,  well either their snowmaking budgets will be increased substantially to use the compressors the same amount of time as last year, or they'll be making less snow.  For example, Mount Snow in their adding of the 150 fan guns th year eliminated their need for the 16 rental air compressors they've used for many, many years.  Historically these 16 air compressors consume around 200,000 gallons of diesel per snowmaking season. Eliminate the cost of having to purchase all that extra diesel + not having to rent those 16 air compressors from Late October through early February and I'd say that its a safe bet that they'll more than off set their soon to be increased electric bill from all the extra fan guns, and start paying off the $3.5 odd million capital expenditure that this summer's 150 fan guns cost.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm not concerned..higher gas prices are incentive for me to quit wasting time and money at the bars and dining out and setting more money away for ski season.  Alot of my ski days are to Blue mountain which is only 18 miles away so it's a maximum of 2 gallons round-trip.  I mainly ski in Vermont and New York early and late season..5 trips up north total last season so the impact of higher gas prices should only cost me a few hundred dollars more.  But I make one income for just myself.  People making 1 or 2 incomes for a family of 4-6 people are going to have it the toughest with the higher gas prices as most of these people drive SUVs..and are already shelling out a small fortune for lift tickets, equipment and food.  Plus it's not just higher gas prices..the prices of everything else will rise.  For me I'm confident that my ski season will be mad steezy yo..but I think less diehard skiers and those with less disposable income are going to ski less..making the ski areas less crowded and less profitable leading to some more ski resorts joining NELSAP


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## skiadikt (Jun 10, 2008)

if it gets a lot more expensive it could be a concern. i might think twice about going on a "marginal" weekend. as someone else mentioned snowmaking & even grooming operations could be greatly impacted. season openings in particular could be effected as areas may be more hesitant to make snow only to watch it run down the hill and it will effect how much snow is blown during the season. in any case, it's not a good thing.


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## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

I'll use the Corolla more and the 4Runner less. 

On second thought, nah, things will remain the same. GSS actually makes a good point. Folks bitch about the price of gas yet have no problem spending $50+ in a bar or restaurant in one night.


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## Geoff (Jun 11, 2008)

The SUV is parked in the garage and rarely goes skiing.  I drive the 30 mpg Volkswagen.  My drive is 150 miles each way.   A weekend is usually around 13 gallons of gas and I could slow down a little and save a gallon or two.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2008)

Anyone who isn't concerned with gas prices and how it might effect their skiing is either ignorant/delusional, has massive amounts of disposable income or lives within 30 miles of their home mountain and even the latter isn't a given.  Predictions for Northern New England next winter are that the average cost for heating a home will be FIVE GRAND.  If you can absorb that and still maintain a similar lifestyle with your recreational habbits....well good on you....most people won't be able to.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> I'll use the Corolla more and the 4Runner less.
> 
> On second thought, nah, things will remain the same. GSS actually makes a good point. Folks bitch about the price of gas yet have no problem spending $50+ in a bar or restaurant in one night.



Saving $50 by not going to the bar doesn't mean as much as it used to.  Two/three years ago home heating costs for a season on average were $2500 (up here at least).  Next winter they will be five grand.  That's A LOT of beer you'll need to give up at the bar to make up the difference.  Has your income appreciated that much to compensate for that sharp of a rise in cost of living in just one area of life, never mind the box of Cheerios in your cupbard?  I know my income hasn't doubled to enjoy the same lifestyle I did three years ago.  I'm not hurtin' by any means, but I certainly think more frugally in every area of my life.

I hate to get all doom and gloom, but as bad as things are right now, next winter is going to HURT BIG TIME for many people who live in this part of the world, especially the elderly


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

People can heat their homes to 60 degrees and wear a sweater instead of the normal 68 or 70 degrees.  I live in an apartment so my heat is included in the rent..and my rent may go up 20-30 bucks a month.  $5k to heat a house in Northern New England seems like alot..is that really the average?  People who live in colder climates like Northern New England don't have to drive as far for skiing,


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## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Time to stop living in denial. It could be a lot worse. It probably will be a lot worse. 4$ dollars is still cheap gas.



Anyway I think the small local hills will make out good from this. Places like Jay, Saddleback ect... could see a difference with further increases. Like I've said on here before these resorts should really start coming with a plan to survive should gas really go up. I-93 corrider could easily set up a plan to benefit rather than lose.


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## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> People can heat their homes to 60 degrees and wear a sweater instead of the normal 68 or 70 degrees.  I live in an apartment so my heat is included in the rent..and my rent may go up 20-30 bucks a month.  $5k to heat a house in Northern New England seems like alot..is that really the average?  People who live in colder climates like Northern New England don't have to drive as far for skiing,



That's because so many live in 2000+ sf house. Families have shrunk yet houses have grown. Big cars and big houses in the burbs are worth $hit in the future.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Time to stop living in denial. It could be a lot worse. It probably will be a lot worse. 4$ dollars is still cheap gas.



For sure..for 40 bucks..you can buy 10 gallons of gas and drive 300 miles in a fuel efficient vehicle..that carries 4-5 passengers..not bad..

Seriously..most people on here seem to have 40 inch flat screen TVs, eat really well, take summer vacations in addition to winter vacations and I'm sure make a better than average income. 

When I became a skier almost 2 decades ago..one thing was clear.  If I wanted to feed my addiction as a skier and take alot of steezy ski trips...I better make as much money as I can.  I actually make way less money than alot of college educated people my age but I make sure to set aside a certain amount of money each year for skiing.  I would rather put off buying a house and expensive furniture/electronics..and live in a little apartment with a 20 inch TV and have a kick-ass ski season every year.  I'm not going to spend 50 bucks for concert tickets or go on trips to Florida and Mexico with non skiers..I'm going to keep putting my money toward skiing.  Everyday of my life..I can save a bunch of money and be healthier just skipping the bars and restaurants.  Not going to the movies, not going to sporting events, not buying a mountain bike, not buying new golf clubs, or expensive clothes.  Why buy a 40 dollar polo shirt when you can buy one for 10 bucks.  Why buy a new laptop or blackberry or Iphone..I give up certain things for skiing.  If I had a wife and kids..I don't think I could afford to ski out west every season because I'd still be making the same amount of money.  So my skiing will put that sort of thing off until I'm in my 30s and make more loot..and I actually make almost double as much as 4 years ago..and have never held any debt but I'm an anomoly..alot of guys and gals my age owe massive student loans..and have mortgages and diaper bills.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> That's because so many live in 2000+ sf house. Families have shrunk yet houses have grown. Big cars and big houses in the burbs are worth $hit in the future.



People with big SUVs have no right to bitch about gas prices..


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## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> People with big SUVs have no right to bitch about gas prices..


 
But you gotta shed a tear for the 2000+ square foot house owners? :roll:


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## RISkier (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> People can heat their homes to 60 degrees and wear a sweater instead of the normal 68 or 70 degrees.  I live in an apartment so my heat is included in the rent..and my rent may go up 20-30 bucks a month.  $5k to heat a house in Northern New England seems like alot..is that really the average?  People who live in colder climates like Northern New England don't have to drive as far for skiing,



Price of fuel oil is scary.  I didn't precisely calculate how much I spent on Fuel Oil last year (I should do that) but somewhere between $4k - $5k.  And we don't have an especially large house, we burn lots of wood in a wood stove, and we keep the thermostats set fairly low.  I'd expect the cost of fuel oil for next winter will increase by at least 50%, probably more.  I think we're already seeing lots of people change their behaviors in terms of travel.  We've been doing at least one ski trip either out West or to Europe.  Current exchange rates make Europe way more costly than it was just a couple of years ago.  And depending on airline ticket prices we may give that a skip this coming season.  We'd likely spend that week skiing in the East.  And oil and gas prices will impact almost all of the things we buy.  Anyone on a fixed income with little discretionary money will have to change their spending habits.  I definately think it's going to impact the industry.


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## riverc0il (Jun 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone who isn't concerned with gas prices and how it might effect their skiing is either ignorant/delusional, has massive amounts of disposable income or lives within 30 miles of their home mountain and even the latter isn't a given.  Predictions for Northern New England next winter are that the average cost for heating a home will be FIVE GRAND.  If you can absorb that and still maintain a similar lifestyle with your recreational habbits....well good on you....most people won't be able to.


That is a tad excessive. Ignorant or delusional? Wow. No need for ad hominem attacks to support your view point. I do not have massive amounts of income and my home mountain is 240 miles round trip. But I am not overly concerned with $4 gas no more than I was at $3 gas. I still drive my 35-40 MPG fuel efficient non-hybrid vehicle. My total gas costs for a ski season may add up to $1000 next year (this year it will be just under $800) but it is part of the cost of skiing. I don't do a lot of other things so I can ski. Gas becomes too expensive to me when it is cheaper to spend the night rather than do a back to back day trip which will be the case at $6 per gallon gas when I will become concerned. Five grand seems kind of high for a home heating cost estimate. We have an 1800+ square foot home and will probably spend about $1500 for heating this winter assuming a 20-25% increase.

I think the average skier will probably be able to take this year's increase in stride. Not saying a lot of folks won't be effected, there will be plenty of folks feeling the pinch at the pump and making changes. But I think most folks won't make too many adjustments. Long term, I think in a few years we could see some massive changes. Their are opportunities and challenges for ski areas in this environment and I suspect the smaller areas further away from metro areas will feel the pain the worst.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> But you gotta shed a tear for the 2000+ square foot house owners? :roll:




A 2,000+ square house for a family doesn't even seem that big.  I think most new homes are 3,000+ square feet but also much more energy efficient.


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## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> That's because so many live in 2000+ sf house. Families have shrunk yet houses have grown. Big cars and big houses in the burbs are worth $hit in the future.





andyzee said:


> But you gotta shed a tear for the 2000+ square foot house owners? :roll:



Uhm....what is wrong with a 2k+ square foot house? :blink:


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## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Uhm....what is wrong with a 2k+ square foot house? :blink:


 
Nothing wrong with it, it's great, but I'm not going to shed a tear for someone that owns one crying about energy costs. Obviously, I don't own.


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## YardSaleDad (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Uhm....what is wrong with a 2k+ square foot house? :blink:



What's wrong with an a SUV.


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## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

What's wrong with consuming fuel like there's no tomorrow? :lol:


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## ckofer (Jun 11, 2008)

Carpooling will make better sense than ever. It's not just about personal budgets, it's about finding a lifestyle that uses less energy per person.


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## drjeff (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Uhm....what is wrong with a 2k+ square foot house? :blink:



There's nothing wrong with them, and actually many of the newer 2000+ sq. Ft. houses built with higher insulation amounts and energy efficient construction materials will not only cost less per sq. ft. to heat over that 50 year old 1400 sq. ft. house with 1950's/60's windows and insulation levels and furnaces, but will cost less outright also.

I will say that personally 3 years ago now, my wife and I put a substantial addition onto our existing circa 1980 cape.  That addition basically added new outer walls/windows and a roof to the entire house and those new outer walls/roof were built with a much greater amount of insulation than the previous outer walls. On top of that we replaced the 20 year old furance with a larger, modern high efficiency model, and even though my sq. footage increased by basically 50%, my total oil consumption in the 3 winters since the addition/renovation work was done has been between 55 and 65% of what it was pre-addition/pre-renovation.  Just because a house is big, doesn't necessarily mean that it's more expensive to heat compared to a smaller house,  a huge amount of it has to do with what it's built with.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> That is a tad excessive. Ignorant or delusional? Wow. No need for ad hominem attacks to support your view point. I do not have massive amounts of income and my home mountain is 240 miles round trip. But I am not overly concerned with $4 gas no more than I was at $3 gas. I still drive my 35-40 MPG fuel efficient non-hybrid vehicle. My total gas costs for a ski season may add up to $1000 next year (this year it will be just under $800) but it is part of the cost of skiing. I don't do a lot of other things so I can ski. Gas becomes too expensive to me when it is cheaper to spend the night rather than do a back to back day trip which will be the case at $6 per gallon gas when I will become concerned. Five grand seems kind of high for a home heating cost estimate. We have an 1800+ square foot home and will probably spend about $1500 for heating this winter assuming a 20-25% increase.
> 
> I think the average skier will probably be able to take this year's increase in stride. Not saying a lot of folks won't be effected, there will be plenty of folks feeling the pinch at the pump and making changes. But I think most folks won't make too many adjustments. Long term, I think in a few years we could see some massive changes. Their are opportunities and challenges for ski areas in this environment and I suspect the smaller areas further away from metro areas will feel the pain the worst.



That did come out as harsh.  Maybe for some, the rise in cost won't cause them to bat an eye, but to think that for a large percentage of the skiing population that energy costs won't have a major affect on their decisions regarding skiing IMO is somewhat delusional.  It will result in fewer skier days for many people.  I plan to ski just as much, but in saying that, I'll probably often times settle for Tenney as its close instead of going to Stowe/Jay unless I know conditions will be very good.  

As for heating a home, 5 grand isn't too far from the truth for those using oil.  The average Maine home uses 900 gallons of oil a year.  Heating price today is $4.41, so $3969 total annual cost. Some speculators are suggesting near $6 a gallon heating oil price by winter, which gets you north of $5 grand.

If you're heating a 1800sf home for $1500 next winter, you're doing very well compared to most with homes of a similar size.  A lot depends on how efficient homes are due to construction materials as Dr. Jeff points out, but the picture is pretty scary for a lot of people, especially the elderly on fixed incomes and no option to move.


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## frozencorn (Jun 11, 2008)

Worried? You bet. Even with a 33 mpg mazda, the wallet is light these days on gas. 

That being said, I'd be more worried and depressed not skiing because of gas, so it won't be an issue because I won't let it be. Just need to work vigilantly at getting pre-season deals and freebies to make up for Mr. Mobil and Co.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 11, 2008)

I am Absolutely concerned about the situation  for everyone on the  Macro level . IMO The pain that is to come will be unlike what has been experienced in several decades. 


WE for the past 30 years have always owned  Two fuel efficient vehicles and i have several buddies to carpool with for local daytrips .Our one week long trip will not be altered that much since we have family in the region 

We   fortunately have always lived below my income /revenue and invested a considerable  % and are  debt free  ( a lifestyle choice  i made as a child of a child of the  great DEPRESSION )  , so at this point it is a PIA but will only effect skiing on the sub-optimal days.  I  will continue to opt for Quality not Quantity


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## skiadikt (Jun 11, 2008)

just had my first $60 fill up on my subaru outback~27-28mpg. pretty scary considering that at the start of ski season last year, my fill ups were just starting to break $40.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

skiadikt said:


> just had my first $60 fill up on my subaru outback~27-28mpg. pretty scary considering that at the start of ski season last year, my fill ups were just starting to break $40.



I drive an Impreza and my fill-ups are over $50 now..


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## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Nothing wrong with it, it's great, but I'm not going to shed a tear for someone that owns one crying about energy costs. Obviously, I don't own.



Out first ~1,000 square foot house built in 1929 was far less efficient than our current ~2,400 square foot house built in 2005.



YardSaleDad said:


> What's wrong with an a SUV.



Nothing. And I also do not believe that folks who own them don't have a right to be upset about rising fuel costs. When we bought our Grand Cherokee in 2004, we never expected gas prices to be $4.25. We also have a 2000 Cherokee and have made the decision to buy a more fuel-efficient car to replace that one in the next year or so.


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## tjf67 (Jun 11, 2008)

It more getting me pissed off than anything else.  How many years has the public been clammering for alt energy and now we are in this position.  Those f'rs in washintgon need a good bitch slapping and may be then they would listen.


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## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> It more getting me pissed off than anything else.  How many years has the public been clammering for alt energy and now we are in this position.  Those f'rs in washintgon need a good bitch slapping and may be then they would listen.



Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer. I'm not sure what is, but come on....you don't think there is enough incentive for alternative energy already? The government shouldn't need to mandate anything. The American entrepreneurial spirit should really be all that is needed. But until then, we as a society are dependent on petroleum products and that's going to be the case for the near term, bottom line.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'm not concerned..higher gas prices are incentive for me to quit wasting time and money at the bars and dining out and setting more money away for ski season.  Alot of my ski days are to Blue mountain which is only 18 miles away so it's a maximum of 2 gallons round-trip.  I mainly ski in Vermont and New York early and late season..5 trips up north total last season so the impact of higher gas prices should only cost me a few hundred dollars more.  But I make one income for just myself.  People making 1 or 2 incomes for a family of 4-6 people are going to have it the toughest with the higher gas prices as most of these people drive SUVs..and are already shelling out a small fortune for lift tickets, equipment and food.  Plus it's not just higher gas prices..the prices of everything else will rise.  For me I'm confident that my ski season will be mad steezy yo..but I think less diehard skiers and those with less disposable income are going to ski less..making the ski areas less crowded and less profitable leading to some more ski resorts joining NELSAP



I barely drive anywhere on the offseason. I'm in the same camp, less meals out, and being a smarter buyer will save enough money to more than compensate for higher fuel costs for me next season. I can take advantage of weekday discounts, I rarely ski weekends locally. Blue knocks $10 off the daypass for various reasons. Ski club member, Men's day, business card day, etc. So that subsidizes my fuel cost.


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## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Out first ~1,000 square foot house built in 1929 was far less efficient than our current ~2,400 square foot house built in 2005.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing. And I also do not believe that folks who own them don't have a right to be upset about rising fuel costs. When we bought our Grand Cherokee in 2004, we never expected gas prices to be $4.25. We also have a 2000 Cherokee and have made the decision to buy a more fuel-efficient car to replace that one in the next year or so.


 
Bottom line, we need to stop whining and need to start conserving. Simple as that. All t


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer. I'm not sure what is, but come on....you don't think there is enough incentive for alternative energy already? The government shouldn't need to mandate anything. The American entrepreneurial spirit should really be all that is needed. But until then, we as a society are dependent on petroleum products and that's going to be the case for the near term, bottom line.



I agree with what your saying, however Washington does have at least some influence.  They could open up more areas for exploratory drilling.  I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but legislation does have some affect on our energy supply.  Same goes for Nuclear Power Plant construction.  There hasn't been any new facilities constructed in the US in 30 years.  Again, I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but a lot of red tape stands in the way with that option.


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## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I agree with what your saying, however Washington does have at least some influence.  They could open up more areas for exploratory drilling.  I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but legislation does have some affect on our energy supply.  Same goes for Nuclear Power Plant construction.  There hasn't been any new facilities constructed in the US in 30 years.  Again, I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but a lot of red tape stands in the way with that option.



Tell the NIMBYs and environmental extremists that. We're getting close to the political line here.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Tell the NIMBYs and environmental extremists that. We're getting close to the political line here.



I need to buy a MTB so I can chase them out of the woods where their hugging trees and knock some sense into them.  :lol:


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## 2knees (Jun 11, 2008)

can i ride a moped to vermont in the winter?  with my skis strapped to my back?


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## Geoff (Jun 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I agree with what your saying, however Washington does have at least some influence.  They could open up more areas for exploratory drilling.  I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but legislation does have some affect on our energy supply.  Same goes for Nuclear Power Plant construction.  There hasn't been any new facilities constructed in the US in 30 years.  Again, I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but a lot of red tape stands in the way with that option.



This isn't an oil price problem.  It's the collapse of the US dollar that has caused the problem  If you are buying oil paying Euros, the prices have not gone up anywhere near as much. 

...so blame the government for lousy fiscal and monetary policies.   You can't spend more than you make for two generations and not expect to pay the piper at some point.  Until congress comes close to balancing the budget through some mix of tax increases and spending cuts, it's just going to get worse.   The next president won't be able to do a thing about it since congress controls the money.  

The market will do the right thing with the soaring energy prices.  SUVs will vanish.  People will stop heating with oil.  People will start using public transporation.  People will telecommute instead of commuting hundreds of miles per week.  People will tighten up their homes to make them more efficient.  Even at $5/gallon, gasoline and diesel are still the most cost effective way to achieve personal transportation.  If things keep going up, hydrogen starts becoming a more economical alternative.  You can burn coal, use hydro, or nuclear to make hydrogen and you can pipe it wherever you want.

The short-term impact on eastern ski resorts is pretty worrying.  $5.00/gallon will cause a pretty big drop in skier visits.  If I were in the ski business in northern New England, I'd be taking a hard look at how to get people up to my resort and transport them around my resort without automobiles.  The metro-NYC market has a train option but the train is expensive (because it's mostly empty all the time) and has a lousy schedule (contributing to it running empty).  The answer is probably bus service.  What you really need is a big population of skiing bus drivers.  You drive the bus up on a Friday evening, ski on comp tickets, and drive the bus back to the flatlands on Sunday evening.  There are an awful lot of charter bus companies with equipment that is lightly used in the winter.  You could make it work.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

I don't know, but maybe I have a much smaller income than a lot of the people on this board. But when the oil I pay for is going to go from $2.59 to $4-5, that's about double the the cost and it really makes me think twice about what I can afford to do next year. That extra $1-2k a year cuts directly into any money I have available for skiing. That's the recreation and fun money and it's also the first to go if things get too tight. I'm sure there are plenty of other people in the same boat in NE.


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## tjf67 (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer. I'm not sure what is, but come on....you don't think there is enough incentive for alternative energy already? The government shouldn't need to mandate anything. The American entrepreneurial spirit should really be all that is needed. But until then, we as a society are dependent on petroleum products and that's going to be the case for the near term, bottom line.



The goverment was created for the people by the people.  If we want it they should mandate it.  No there is not enough incentive.   The pay off is infinite but the capital needed is as well.  Who would do it?  The oil companies.  I dont know ,if I were a ceo of an oil company I would not be in a hurry to do anything except exercise my options. 

We better get cracking on it cause the near term in the 70's was a long time ago.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

Geoff said:


> This isn't an oil price problem.  It's the collapse of the US dollar that has caused the problem  If you are buying oil paying Euros, the prices have not gone up anywhere near as much.



Oil is traded and bought in dollars world wide, so everybody is effected. It's actually caused bigger disruptions outside of the US with truckers going on strike all over: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...06/10/AR2008061002877.html?hpid=moreheadlines


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

Geoff said:


> This isn't an oil price problem.  It's the collapse of the US dollar that has caused the problem  If you are buying oil paying Euros, the prices have not gone up anywhere near as much.
> 
> ...so blame the government for lousy fiscal and monetary policies.   You can't spend more than you make for two generations and not expect to pay the piper at some point.  Until congress comes close to balancing the budget through some mix of tax increases and spending cuts, it's just going to get worse.   The next president won't be able to do a thing about it since congress controls the money.
> 
> ...



You summed that up quite nicely. USD will see another ~30-40% debasement in the next 5 years.


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## tjf67 (Jun 11, 2008)

.

the euro and dollar were on par in 2002.  Oil was 25 dollars per barrel.

It is now 130 dollars per barrel and it is about 85 euros per barrel.

It cost the saudies 2 dollars per barrel to pull it out of the ground.


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## tjf67 (Jun 11, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> You summed that up quite nicely. USD will see another ~30-40% debasement in the next 5 years.




Statements like this are so far out there I dont know which is sillier.  The statement itself or the people that think it is a fact.  
BUBBLES BURST


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Statements like this are so far out there I dont know which is sillier.  The statement itself or the people that think it is a fact.
> BUBBLES BURST



That's what folks said when oil hit 50,60, 70,80,90...blaming everything except our currency getting trashed. Gold has tripled. Watch and learn.


----------



## jack97 (Jun 11, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> .
> 
> the euro and dollar were on par in 2002.  Oil was 25 dollars per barrel.
> 
> ...



Maybe the Saudis have high health care cost or  a higher standard of living now


----------



## frozencorn (Jun 11, 2008)

Maybe the easy thing is just to move to the mountains to conserve. I'll use this excuse with my wife.


----------



## hiroto (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer.



But I'm hoping it is getting pretty close.  

Many electric cars are supposed to be coming out starting in 2010.  I like the concept of GM Volt, although I don't care for the packaging.  I'm hoping mini-van with same power train will follow behind.  Local startup is competing to be the battery supplier for this car. 

Recently I signed up for NSTAR Green to have our electricity to be 100% wind generated.  Yes it is a gimmick but I like to show my support for this technology.  They will buy electricity from Maple Ridge Wind Farm (upper NY), and there is Kibby Wind Power Project planned up in Maine.


----------



## jack97 (Jun 11, 2008)

2knees said:


> can i ride a moped to vermont in the winter?  with my skis strapped to my back?




No sh!t, a couple of years ago, one of the coldest day in Jan recorded, I crossed the bridge to pull into Berkshire East and saw a kid riding his bicycle with a snow board strapped across his back.


----------



## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

2knees said:


> can i ride a moped to vermont in the winter? with my skis strapped to my back?


 
A couple of drinks, and yes you can.


----------



## skiadikt (Jun 11, 2008)

oil surging again after latest inventory report:

NEW YORK (AP) -- Oil prices are soaring in response to a government report that the nation's oil inventories fell more than expected last week.

Light, sweet crude for July delivery is up $4.50 at $135.81 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Earlier, prices approached $137.

The Energy Department said oil inventories fell by 4.6 million barrels last week. Analysts had expected a much smaller decline of about 1.4 million barrels.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Out first ~1,000 square foot house built in 1929 was far less efficient than our current ~2,400 square foot house built in 2005.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing. And I also do not believe that folks who own them don't have a right to be upset about rising fuel costs. When we bought our Grand Cherokee in 2004, we never expected gas prices to be $4.25. We also have a 2000 Cherokee and have made the decision to buy a more fuel-efficient car to replace that one in the next year or so.





I've read lot's of stuff in the past that has pointed towards this happening. It must have been in the back of your mind when making suv purpose. Every time I get gas it seems like there is someone with big car or truck complaining and I think they have been living in denial for a long time. 

Yeah I guess 2000 sf isn't really all that big, it's just so much larger than what people in most other areas of the world would live in. My gf works for a design firm that works on several 20,000+ square foot homes, the definition of excessive. These folks could care less about the cost of fuel I'm sure.

I do stand by my statement that suv's will have an awful trade in value in the coming months and years, I don't know it could already be the case. I can't imagine dealers having much demand for a f-350


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> .
> 
> the euro and dollar were on par in 2002.  Oil was 25 dollars per barrel.
> 
> ...



C'mon we all know there's no connection to what it costs to produce the barrel to what it goes for on the open market. It's whoever is willing to pay the most for that barrel who sets the price. That's where the speculators come in in raising the price of oil, they are betting the price will keep going up and thus are willing to keep paying more and more for it as long as demand stays up. Only good thing about the prices going up is that it makes other methods of extraction and alternate fuels affordable. If and when these alternates come on line it should lower demand/increase supply and prices should level off. We just don't know where that leveling point is.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> That's what folks said when oil hit 50,60, 70,80,90...blaming everything except our currency getting trashed. Gold has tripled. Watch and learn.



I'm actually going to pan for gold later today!


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I'm actually going to pan for gold later today!



Cool. I've always wanted to try that for kicks. Looks like a fun way to kill a day by a river or stream.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 11, 2008)

skiadikt said:


> oil surging again after latest inventory report:
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) -- Oil prices are soaring in response to a government report that the nation's oil inventories fell more than expected last week.
> 
> ...



Probably just caused by a supertanker or 2 that couldn't make it all the way into port for unloading due to weather conditions - that's what happened 2 weeks ago atleast


----------



## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Cool. I've always wanted to try that for kicks. Looks like a fun way to kill a day by a river or stream.



right now it's actually profitable. I've already got some from the last two times. In a couple months I'll trade it all in for actual money. It's pretty tedious but kind of peaceful. The water is so cold it makes my hand numb. I find this a good activity to smoke herb and do.


----------



## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I've read lot's of stuff in the past that has pointed towards this happening. It must have been in the back of your mind when making suv purpose. Every time I get gas it seems like there is someone with big car or truck complaining and I think they have been living in denial for a long time.



Not really. Sure, I expected gas prices to go up, but not double. With that said, a new car purchase is in the near future and a full sized SUV is off the table solely due to gas prices.



snoseek said:


> Yeah I guess 2000 sf isn't really all that big, it's just so much larger than what people in most other areas of the world would live in.



Not sure about you, but I have no interest in living in some other part of the world. Call me a spoiled American all you want. Anyway, coming from a 1000 square foot home, we did feel the new house was almost obscene at first. Amazing how quickly you can fill it up though. But anyway, no regrets. We take a lot of pride and our home and plan to be here for probably 20-30 years. I haven't done the math but it probably costs us 75% more to heat/cool a home two and a half times the size. That's pretty good.



snoseek said:


> I do stand by my statement that suv's will have an awful trade in value in the coming months and years, I don't know it could already be the case. I can't imagine dealers having much demand for a f-350



Well, my 2000 Cherokee has over 160,000 miles on it now so it's not going to be worth shit anyway. I plan to drive the Grand Cherokee into the ground too despite the crappy fuel efficiency. The next vehicle to replace the Cherokee will be more fuel efficient, likely a Forrester at this point.


----------



## jack97 (Jun 11, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> C'mon we all know there's no connection to what it costs to produce the barrel to what it goes for on the open market. It's whoever is willing to pay the most for that barrel who sets the price. That's where the speculators come in in raising the price of oil, they are betting the price will keep going up and thus are willing to keep paying more and more for it as long as demand stays up. Only good thing about the prices going up is that it makes other methods of extraction and alternate fuels affordable. If and when these alternates come on line it should lower demand/increase supply and prices should level off. We just don't know where that leveling point is.




Interesting story dated about a month or two ago. There's been some recent pressure to get the Saudis to increase production which IMO is good and bad. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/business/worldbusiness/29oil.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&fta=y


----------



## drjeff (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Well, my 2000 Cherokee has over 160,000 miles on it now so it's not going to be worth shit anyway. I plan to drive the Grand Cherokee into the ground too despite the crappy fuel efficiency. The next vehicle to replace the Cherokee will be more fuel efficient, likely a Forrester at this point.



+1  My *FULLY PAID OFF* '02 trailblazer with 150k on it still costs me less per month with it's 17mpg, then what the payment on a new more fuel efficient mid sized vehicle would save me in gas $$ each month.

Definately have been rethinking what I'm planning for the next vehicle though, I was set on a Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon before the lastest and greatest gas run up, now not so sure, even with the hybrid model.  I'll have to see what's available when it's time..


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

My BMW is a 3 yr lease, another 1.5 yrs on it. Might try to persuade the wife to look at hybrids. The new Camry's are nice looking, will have to see whats on the market then. I own and plan to keep the 03 Pilot until decent SUV hybrids are produced. I only have ~33,000 miles on it.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> I don't know, but maybe I have a much smaller income than a lot of the people on this board. But when the oil I pay for is going to go from $2.59 to $4-5, that's about double the the cost and it really makes me think twice about what I can afford to do next year. That extra $1-2k a year cuts directly into any money I have available for skiing. That's the recreation and fun money and it's also the first to go if things get too tight. I'm sure there are plenty of other people in the same boat in NE.



It's not just the ski industry that's going to be hurting..any industries that are non-essential..ie..luxury..are going to hurt big time.  A girl I'm currently seeing helps run a family florist and business for them has been down big-time.  People buy less expensive flowers from the supermarket instead.  Restaurants are hurting a ton..last week I went to Carrabas which is a local chain restaurant and there always used to be 30-45 minute waits and we were seated right away.  My Dad is an avid golfer and he's been getting last minute tee-times at ease at courses that used to require 4-5 days advanced reservations.  Check out the new issue of Newsweek..it's about the current recession..the rising oil prices are creating a domino effect on everything...wall street..the housing market..food prices..small businesses..Even the funeral homes that we work with are seeing an increasing rise in cremations..when money is tight..why spend $8-10k on a funeral when you can get a budget cremation funeral for a fraction of the cost.  Now is the time more than ever to squirrel away money..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Maybe the Saudis have high health care cost or  a higher standard of living now



It's their oil..they can charge what they want....We can start drilling in precious Alaska..and I know there's oil in Montana..:smash:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> right now it's actually profitable. I've already got some from the last two times. In a couple months I'll trade it all in for actual money. It's pretty tedious but kind of peaceful. The water is so cold it makes my hand numb. I find this a good activity to smoke herb and do.



Hahaha...the price of herb has remained steady since I was in college..:grin:


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

Some of the slack will be taken up by those that have a decent currency. It's been happening over the past few years. Tiffanys posted strong sales, more and more transactions are being done in Euros in NYC, the arabs just bought the Chrysler building, and on and on. More canadians, europeans, russians, asians, etc will sustain the high ticket markets and the bigger resort areas. I don't think they'll suffer too badly.


----------



## SkiDork (Jun 11, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Definately have been rethinking what I'm planning for the next vehicle though, I was set on a Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon before the lastest and greatest gas run up, now not so sure, *even with the hybrid model.*  I'll have to see what's available when it's time..




What does the Hybrid get in terms of gas mileage?


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> What does the Hybrid get in terms of gas mileage?



I think it gets about 30mpg


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I think it gets about 30mpg



The Tahoe? No, I think it brings it up to about 20. Which I guess is good for a tahoe/suburban but still pretty ridiculous. The Hybrid  Escape gets 34 mpg.


----------



## frozencorn (Jun 11, 2008)

My Mazda 6 (non-hybrid) gets 32 (hwy).


----------



## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

My Trek get about 100 miles a gallon (of water)


----------



## tjf67 (Jun 11, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> What does the Hybrid get in terms of gas mileage?



the big chevy hybrid get 20 city 20 highway.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 11, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> What does the Hybrid get in terms of gas mileage?



EPA estimate of 21 City/22 highway for the 2wd and 20 city/20 highway for the 4x4


----------



## frozencorn (Jun 11, 2008)

drjeff said:


> EPA estimate of 21 City/22 highway for the 2wd and 20 city/20 highway for the 4x4



Boy....that's terrible. 

My other ride, a Mitsubishi Outlander gets 23 highway. I feel pretty lucky enough to have a 23 and a 33 per gallon, and even that is killing us right now. The wife is pushing for a bigger SUV (and a second child) but at these mileages, even for a hybrid, it's ludicrous to switch.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

If you do city driving, flat roads, under 35 mph, are you running on mostly electric with the hybrids?


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> If you do city driving, flat roads, under 35 mph, are you running on mostly electric with the hybrids?



That's where you get the best mileage, because the stop and go driving actually charges the batteries through the brakes. Also why mpg is better in the city.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That's where you get the best mileage, because the stop and go driving actually charges the batteries through the brakes. Also why mpg is better in the city.



That's the impression I have. I haven't looked at it that carefully yet since I'm not in the market for another car right now. We do mostly city miles, stop and go, so I think we'd do well with a hybrid.


----------



## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)




----------



## drjeff (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


>




LOL!  If only that were true, well then the line at the drive through at Taco Bell would be practically endless!


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

I suggest we could solve the obesity problem and a host of illnesses caused by it by liposuctioning the obese for biofuel. Implant some kinda valve on their bodies and hook up for a fill up. Reduce dependency on oil and healthcare costs.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


>



Andy..for those of us at work..that should be labeled NSFW..


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2008)

Worried indeed.  Even though I will be close to Sugarbush, as you said, heating costs are going to be going higher :roll:  and that will take a chunk out of the budget.  I will be running the thermostat cooler, taking shorter showers, and trying to drive less.....


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

There's an easy solution...have your credit limits raised and have the steeziest ski season of your life thanks to your Visa card...then just make the minimum payment for the next 15 years...lol..just kidding


----------



## andyzee (Jun 11, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Andy..for those of us at work..that should be labeled NSFW..


 

You are correct, my apologies to you and your clientle. Can the dead really see that?


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> You are correct, my apologies to you and your clientle. Can the dead really see that?



Well actually I have my own office upstairs from where the customers(relatives of the dead) sit..so I can look at porn..I swear my mouse and keyboard is sticky from the heat..:blink:


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 11, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Go wash your keyboard in the sink ..



I'd use salad tongs to be safe


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 11, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> I'd use salad tongs to be safe



Wow that was a real thread ender


----------



## RichT (Jun 11, 2008)

OK check this out!...............1965 gas .31c a gallon.....avg blue collar wage $2.85/hr this my friends translate to @ 80k salary year.............$4.85 A GALLON!! and our cars get much better gas mileage now! How can this be??


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

RichT said:


> OK check this out!...............1965 gas .31c a gallon.....avg blue collar wage $2.85/hr this my friends translate to @ 80k salary year.............$4.85 A GALLON!! and our cars get much better gas mileage now! How can this be??



Um, what's confusing. Increased demand, a weak dollar and unregulated speculation lead to higher prices. What does that have to do with wages? FYI, cars got better mileage in the 80's than they do now.


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## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

RichT said:


> OK check this out!...............1965 gas .31c a gallon.....avg blue collar wage $2.85/hr this my friends translate to @ 80k salary year.............$4.85 A GALLON!! and our cars get much better gas mileage now! How can this be??



So are you stating the average worker bee clears 80k?


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## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> So are you stating the average worker bee clears 80k?



Probably not, but try raising a family in the Northeast with an HHI under $80K and it will be pretty tough.


----------



## ckofer (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> So are you stating the average worker bee clears 80k?



A) I think that was gross income, not cleared.

B) Fuel mileage was poor back then

C) Fuel use is only one portion of the equation

D) The phrase "worker bee" may offend some


----------



## Mike P. (Jun 11, 2008)

Just bought home heating oil today $4.46 a gallon in SE CT.  I did not read all ten pages but expect lift ticket prices to go up  (Generators at the slopes that run lifts & snow guns run on gas or diesel)  Food will be even more costly in the lodge too!!!


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## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

ckofer said:


> D) The phrase "worker bee" may offend some



huh?


Anyway I consider anyone taking home 50+ k per year to be pretty well off and well above average.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 11, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Anyway I consider anyone taking home 50+ k per year to be pretty well off and well above average.



Only if you are single.


----------



## Greg (Jun 11, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Only if you are single.



And without kids and a mortgage.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Probably not, but try raising a family in the Northeast with an HHI under $80K and it will be pretty tough.



Household income is different (that would indeed be tough, but possible), he was talking average blue collar wage. Take away the cable tv, i-phone, bigger houses, computers, increased vacations, computers, five ski quivers, and all the other modern amenities that make life "better" and yeah maybe families could survive on one income and kids would actually be raised by their parents.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> And without kids and a mortgage.



I seem to get by on much much less than 50,000 take home just fine. It's not like I'm eating rice and beans for dinner 6 nights a week. I do pay rent, it's not cheap.


----------



## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> ...and kids would actually be raised by their parents.



Are you a parent? If not, check what you *think *you know at the door.

If you are a parent, at some very basic level I agree with you a little bit. It might be nice if my wife was able to stay home full time with the kids......maybe. My wife's personality is such that we both feel she needs to maintain an "adult identity" so she works four days a week. Plus it does help a bit financially. And yes, my kids are in day care/preschool those four days a week. They just so happen to be very healthy, polite, smart and well adjusted kids.

In fact, I just met with my 5 year old's teacher today. She's technically in a kindergarten curriculum, despite the fact that she is too young to start in the public school's first grade program in September. Her teacher indicates that at every level she is ready for it though. Probably one of the kindest souls on the planet too. Her little sister is following a very similar, perhaps even more accelerated path.

So, yeah, perhaps kids should be home with mom that first year or year and a half, but there are some pretty obvious benefits to day care/preschool too. So, again, what is your parenting experience?


----------



## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Are you a parent? If not, check what you *think *you know at the door.
> 
> If you are a parent, at some very basic level I agree with you a little bit. It might be nice if my wife was able to stay home full time with the kids......maybe. My wife's personality is such that we both feel she needs to maintain an "adult identity" so she works four days a week. Plus it does help a bit financially. And yes, my kids are in day care/preschool those four days a week. They just so happen to be very healthy, polite, smart and well adjusted kids.
> 
> ...



I don't know jack about kids other than I can't live my lifestyle and afford to have them. My parents think I live a selfish lifestyle by always doing what I want but I totally disagree (can't feed em' don't breed em'). 

I'm not gonna pretend to know all about your world, just stating that i feel so many have the whole idea of needs and wants twisted. when was the last time you met someone without cable t.v. or a cell phone? These things that make our life "better" seem to keep piling up over the years, monthly bills grow, and we are even more slaves to our jobs. Every generation seems to work a little more to have these things and every generation seems to have less time for children. This is a very broad generalization of course.


Edit-you know if I had kids I probably would send them off to preschool or whatever a couple days a week just to socialize them with other kids, I'm sure that's important. I have always had dogs, children seem pretty much like dogs in so many ways-to me they are the same. 

If you don't have a dog then you wouldn't know. lol!


----------



## skiboarder (Jun 12, 2008)

I find the increased gas issue is blown way out of proportion for the non poor.  It takes about 22 gallons  of gas for me to go from westchester to Killington roundtrip. Say gas prices will increase $2.00 a gallon from this ski season from the previous.  My weekend is costing me $44 more.  At $2.50, $55 more.  For my wife and I , discounted lift tixes will be $172 for 2 days.  Lodging about $250.  Food, maybe about $150.  If gas is $5 a gallon, it will cost $110.  $682 for the weekend instead of say $630.  That's an increase in total cost of less than 10%.  Add an extra day or kids to the mix, and the % price increase gets much smaller.   Is this really a big deal?  Hell, bring a hot plate or stay at a place with access to a microwave and don't go out for dinner and your ahead of the game.


----------



## skiboarder (Jun 12, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> That is a tad excessive. Ignorant or delusional? Wow. No need for ad hominem attacks to support your view point. I do not have massive amounts of income and my home mountain is 240 miles round trip. But I am not overly concerned with $4 gas no more than I was at $3 gas. I still drive my 35-40 MPG fuel efficient non-hybrid vehicle. My total gas costs for a ski season may add up to $1000 next year (this year it will be just under $800) but it is part of the cost of skiing. I don't do a lot of other things so I can ski. Gas becomes too expensive to me when it is cheaper to spend the night rather than do a back to back day trip which will be the case at $6 per gallon gas when I will become concerned. Five grand seems kind of high for a home heating cost estimate. We have an 1800+ square foot home and will probably spend about $1500 for heating this winter assuming a 20-25% increase.
> 
> I think the average skier will probably be able to take this year's increase in stride. Not saying a lot of folks won't be effected, there will be plenty of folks feeling the pinch at the pump and making changes. But I think most folks won't make too many adjustments. Long term, I think in a few years we could see some massive changes. Their are opportunities and challenges for ski areas in this environment and I suspect the smaller areas further away from metro areas will feel the pain the worst.



Testify!


----------



## skiboarder (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer. I'm not sure what is, but come on....you don't think there is enough incentive for alternative energy already? The government shouldn't need to mandate anything. The American entrepreneurial spirit should really be all that is needed. But until then, we as a society are dependent on petroleum products and that's going to be the case for the near term, bottom line.



It is a problem that affects the entire country.  A Federal response is not only appropriate, but vital.  In addition to mandated higher fuel standards, we need large amounts of money to go into a "Manhattan Project" type project to develop alternative fuel technology.  Think about the enormous technological changes in every industry within the last 100 years.  The auto was invented about 100 years ago, but the propulsion is fundamentally the same- the internal combustion engine.  Very sad.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 12, 2008)

skiboarder said:


> It is a problem that affects the entire country.  A Federal response is not only appropriate, but vital.  In addition to mandated higher fuel standards, we need large amounts of money to go into a "Manhattan Project" type project to develop alternative fuel technology.  Think about the enormous technological changes in every industry within the last 100 years.  The auto was invented about 100 years ago, but the propulsion is fundamentally the same- the internal combustion engine.  Very sad.



I'd point out that the "Manhattan Project" almost blew up the entire world.  

This isn't a technology problem.  We have plenty of alternatives to oil.  The simple fact is that oil is still cheaper than the alternative sources for personal transportation.  

Market forces are going to push fleet MPG numbers up to around 35 mpg.  That's already the number in Europe.  There's no magic.  It's wind resistance and weight.   If economics force people to use it, public transportation is far more efficient than automobiles.  Fix the rail beds and electrify them where it makes sense.  Move freight by rail instead of by truck.  More bus service.  People will stop heating with oil.  Wood pellets are a renewable resource.

If you want a federal response, it should be to fund public transportation.


----------



## RichT (Jun 12, 2008)

50K!! My real eststate taxes (NY) are one third of that............maybe in Ohio but not in the lower northeast! No complaining, Because when it comes time to retire hopfully early, we sell our small   $600k homes, and take our nice size 401k's and head to the mtn's!!!


----------



## ckofer (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> huh?
> 
> 
> Anyway I consider anyone taking home 50+ k per year to be pretty well off and well above average.



Exactly what is a worker bee? Anyhow, $50K/yr is not a ton of money in New England. It's a squeeze to raise a family on twice that (and ski), hence my Ski Cheap Or Die project.


----------



## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I have always had dogs, children seem pretty much like dogs in so many ways-to me they are the same.



Riiiiiight.... :roll:

Two big pet peeves of mine:

When folks that have worked hard to be successful in life and earn a good living are somehow looked negatively upon for it.
When someone that's never raised kids somehow feels they are at all qualified to criticize those that have.
Thanks for touching both nerves in this thread.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Riiiiiight.... :roll:
> 
> Two big pet peeves of mine:
> 
> ...



+5!!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> What has increased over the years is the tax burden and the expenses that didn't even exist back then ..



The tax part of you statement is true for lower income workers, but not for those making high incomes and corporations.  The highest earners were taxed at a FAR higher percentage 50 years ago than they are today.  The same is true for corporations.  Back then, corporate taxes covered upwards of 30% of federal taxes, today it is around 15%.

This is in part why it the current economic situation is much harder on low-middle income workers than it is the wealthy.  Bush throws the low end a bone of $600 to get the 'peasants' to pipe down, while at the same time returning boat loads of money to the richest 1%.  Over half of the total dollars in tax cuts in his plan go to that 1%, people whose average income is 1.5 mil or higher.  This of course doesn't even factor in that for most people at that income level, they get their income in the form of capitol gains, which is already taxed at a far lower percent than wage income.

All this in the good spirit of trickle down economics......B$%l S@#t


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 12, 2008)

What is scary here guys is that the tenor of this conversation is but ONE TINY example of WHAT could happen and  the potential for "class warfare " that very well may play out when /IF this current economic decline deepens .

Most people have NEVER  had to wonder how to house , feed , and provide for family unity in DIFFICULT times .While some  may have read about devaluation and/or devolution most/all cannot relate to it. Many former members of the SOLID middle class will see not only their lifestyle change perhaps drastically  but also their security and IF /when that happens this will be true chaos .

Treat each other well !


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Riiiiiight.... :roll:
> 
> Two big pet peeves of mine:
> 
> ...



I think you're being overly sensitive here.  

I'm not sure what he said that touched nerve #1.  Where exactly did he criticize you for earning a good living? Nerve #2, only slightly.  I don't think he directly attempted to insult your parenting methods.


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## billski (Jun 12, 2008)

skiboarder said:


> I find the increased gas issue is blown way out of proportion for the non poor.  It takes about 22 gallons  of gas for me to go from westchester to Killington roundtrip. Say gas prices will increase $2.00 a gallon from this ski season from the previous.  My weekend is costing me $44 more.  At $2.50, $55 more.  For my wife and I , discounted lift tixes will be $172 for 2 days.  Lodging about $250.  Food, maybe about $150.  If gas is $5 a gallon, it will cost $110.  $682 for the weekend instead of say $630.  That's an increase in total cost of less than 10%.  Add an extra day or kids to the mix, and the % price increase gets much smaller.   Is this really a big deal?  Hell, bring a hot plate or stay at a place with access to a microwave and don't go out for dinner and your ahead of the game.



The people that get hurt first are those "living on the edge."  Those that could just ek out enough "disposable income" to go on a trip may not be able to afford the additional $44 (I'd argue it's going to cost you more than that for your example/see below).  So we'll see those people turning into day-trippers, dropping out or going with fewer people.

The other people on the edge are those that have been making up for increasing prices by using their credit cards for everything and not paying it off.  This is often a hidden behavior, difficult to track until the collector comes-a-callin'.  Eventually it will catch up with them, if they can't pay off the card debt and blam, they'll stop spending it.

I'd argue it's a lot more than that since your lodging and food are going to increase, because they all depend on trucks to transport and to manufacture.  It will have a direct impact on all consumables, including your new skis and rentals.

As far as the lift tickets, rental rates and fees for other activities, resorts will wisely not post their prices until the 11th hour - to see how much the market will bear.  There will be a much better reading on where we are going with oil prices in November.


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Riiiiiight.... :roll:
> 
> Two big pet peeves of mine:
> 
> ...



No problem, anytime:grin: (I hate smilies They're dumb, but guess I should start using them)

Anyway you sound a bit like my sister that has a holier than thou, I've reached a whole different level of being because I reproduced. It actually touches a nerve with me because most of the family treats me like I'm gay and they're are hardcore christian.


It's all good, we live completely separate lives, you took one fork, I took the other. You chose family, things, ect..., I choose experiences. I don't expect you to understand where I'm coming from.

Edit- to adress pet peeve #1 I in no way look down on folks with money, they are directly my livlihood. I was just stating that many are complete slaves to their jobs because of how they live, spend. The best thing you can do if you hate your job, don't see kids enough, want to try something newect.... is dramatically decrease spending to give more financial freedom. That is my whole point.


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think you're being overly sensitive here.
> 
> I'm not sure what he said that touched nerve #1.  Where exactly did he criticize you for earning a good living?



It was kinda implied. *[post="273472"]Click[/post]*. It was the tone there that bothered me.



deadheadskier said:


> Nerve #2, only slightly.  I don't think he directly attempted to insult your parenting methods.



I never said he criticised me specifically in either case. Hey, I have no problem with the life path snoseek has decided to take. I applaud people that are self aware enough to know they shouldn't have kids. With that said, someone that has never done it is not qualified to comment on the right way to parent. The fact that he thinks raising a child is like caring for a dog proves that.

It's not a big deal. We're just on very different paths, I guess...


----------



## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Anyway you sound a bit like my sister that has a holier than thou, I've reached a whole different level of being because I reproduced. It actually touches a nerve with me because most of the family treats me like I'm gay and they're are hardcore christian.



Like I said in my previous post, good on you for picking the road that works best for you. I have no problem with that. Just don't imply the road others took is the wrong way, or that they're not following it correctly.



snoseek said:


> It's all good, we live completely separate lives, you took one fork, I took the other. You chose family, things, ect..., I choose experiences. I don't expect you to understand where I'm coming from.



No doubt. One final point I will make though. Family *is *an experience, that's for sure.


----------



## Vinny (Jun 12, 2008)

skiboarder said:


> I find the increased gas issue is blown way out of proportion for the non poor.  It takes about 22 gallons  of gas for me to go from westchester to Killington roundtrip. Say gas prices will increase $2.00 a gallon from this ski season from the previous.  My weekend is costing me $44 more.  At $2.50, $55 more.  For my wife and I , discounted lift tixes will be $172 for 2 days.  Lodging about $250.  Food, maybe about $150.  If gas is $5 a gallon, it will cost $110.  $682 for the weekend instead of say $630.  That's an increase in total cost of less than 10%.  Add an extra day or kids to the mix, and the % price increase gets much smaller.   Is this really a big deal?  Hell, bring a hot plate or stay at a place with access to a microwave and don't go out for dinner and your ahead of the game.



I agree.  Looking at the increase from a year prior, the incremental cost caused by gas increases (even at 2 bucks as in skiboarder's example) is not that much considering the total cost of a ski day/weekend/week.  Those who travel with friends or family have an even smaller delta %.  Those just trying to make ends meet, may be forced out, but I think that may be a small %, and they may have opted out anyway. 

I think the biggest change we may see is that the mountains closer to Metro areas may get more of the total business.  More thought may go into driving that extra 150 miles or so.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2008)

Vinny said:


> I agree.  Looking at the increase from a year prior, the incremental cost caused by gas increases (even at 2 bucks as in skiboarder's example) is not that much considering the total cost of a ski day/weekend/week.  Those who travel with friends or family have an even smaller delta %.  Those just trying to make ends meet, may be forced out, but I think that may be a small %, and they may have opted out anyway.
> 
> I think the biggest change we may see is that the mountains closer to Metro areas may get more of the total business.  More thought may go into driving that extra 150 miles or so.



There is some truth to this, but it doesn't account for the 'total picture' as I stated earlier.  While that scenario that skiboarder makes shows a rather modest increase of only $50 for the weekend, its the other areas of life that will hurt that I think will effect people more.  Having commuting costs go up by 30+% and the cost to heat peoples home nearly doubling will be the areas that cause the real pinch and for people to monitor their discretionary spending much more.  $50 isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.  $1000-$2000 increase in heating oil expenses is for most people.


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## Vortex (Jun 12, 2008)

I think your both chose to what you belive in.  Common things ski passion.  Snowseek chose turns. over family. I understand Greg in  his feeling about kids and employment.   

Takes alot less coin to live with without a faimily and a house payment.  Very little flexibility once locked in.
 Many choices are made for you


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> It was kinda implied. *[post="273472"]Click[/post]*. It was the tone there that bothered me.
> 
> Just stating my simple opinion that the big car and house in the burbs will not be the model for the future. Just an thought, possibly an incorrect one.
> 
> ...



are you kidding me:smash:


I have 18 years of experience form the other side as being a child. I'm conciously trying to do the opposite of what my parents did. They both worked their ass off and could have been less owned by their jobs. They were spenders.


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> are you kidding me:smash:
> 
> 
> I have 18 years of experience form the other side as being a child.



Me too. Trust me, it's useless.


----------



## SkiDork (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> are You Kidding Me:smash:
> 
> 
> *i Have 18 Years Of Experience Form The Other Side As Being A Child*. I'm Conciously Trying To Do The Opposite Of What My Parents Did. They Both Worked Their Ass Off And Could Have Been Less Owned By Their Jobs. They Were Spenders.




Rofl!!!  Potd!!!


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Like I said in my previous post, good on you for picking the road that works best for you. I have no problem with that. Just don't imply the road others took is the wrong way, or that they're not following it correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt. One final point I will make though. Family *is *an experience, that's for sure.



Final thought in this epic hijack-I've never met anyone that regrets having kids whether its planned or the mother of all mistakes. That tells me that it must be quite an experience. I'm getting older @ 35 but g.f. is 25 so we have +- 15 years to change our minds. I don't think it will ever happen though.


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## tjf67 (Jun 12, 2008)

Isn't the ski industry kinda recession proof?


There operating costs are going to go through the roof.   Have the day pass prices for next season come out?  Good thing for passes.


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## tjf67 (Jun 12, 2008)

greg said:


> like I Said In My Previous Post, Good On You For Picking The Road That Works Best For You. I Have No Problem With That. Just Don't Imply The Road Others Took Is The Wrong Way, Or That They're Not Following It Correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> No Doubt. One Final Point I Will Make Though. Family *is *an Experience, That's For Sure.




Rearrrrr   Cat Fight


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## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> Rofl!!!  Potd!!!



I think this is what snoseek was referring to regarding his feeling that his sister takes a somewhat 'elitist' attitude over him because she has kids and he does not.

Look I think it goes without saying that someone who is a parent has a different perspective than someone who doesn't have kids.  This doesn't mean however, that someone without kids can't have a valid opinion on what constitutes good parenting.  There are great parents and bad parents no matter what level of wealth and I don't think it takes having a child of your own to see the difference. 

I don't know Greg, but he seems to be a stand up guy and I assume a great parent.  I don't think snoseek was saying he is a bad parent or made the wrong choice by having a two income family with kids in pre-school.  

Probably isn't really worth discussing further.  Perhaps were all just a little moody because our fuel tanks are on E and there are no lifts spinning even if they were full :lol:


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

deadhead - it wasn't that long ago that I wasn't a parent. You go into it with some idea of what to expect, but most of it is on the job training. One thing is for sure - it will challenge just about everything about yourself you thought you knew.


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No we just need some good ol' summer flame wars in this bitch!!!!!!!!!


I was pretty high last night when I made most of my post!!! I'm going skiing now. 

I'm sure Greg is a great example of a good parent-when he let's the kids out of the basement:lol:

Side note-bobr is one of the few guys I've met that chose both paths.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> deadhead - it wasn't that long ago that I wasn't a parent. You go into it with some idea of what to expect, but most of it is on the job training. One thing is for sure - it will challenge just about everything about yourself you thought you knew.



I have no doubt that this is true.  No delusions there on my part


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## trtaylor (Jun 12, 2008)

*Back on track*

Although we'll each need to make adjustments as fuel costs rise, there is a LOT of good work going on in this area. Two examples:

Toyota fuel cell hybrid (I could do a roundtrip from Pa. to Mount Snow in this.)

Cat electric drive dozer (Maybe we'll see this technology on groomers?)

As others have posted, home heating oil costs remain a concern.


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## awf170 (Jun 12, 2008)

skiboarder said:


> I find the increased gas issue is blown way out of proportion for the non poor.  It takes about 22 gallons  of gas for me to go from westchester to Killington roundtrip. Say gas prices will increase $2.00 a gallon from this ski season from the previous.  My weekend is costing me $44 more.  At $2.50, $55 more.  For my wife and I , discounted lift tixes will be $172 for 2 days.  Lodging about $250.  Food, maybe about $150.  If gas is $5 a gallon, it will cost $110.  $682 for the weekend instead of say $630.  That's an increase in total cost of less than 10%.  Add an extra day or kids to the mix, and the % price increase gets much smaller.   Is this really a big deal?  Hell, bring a hot plate or stay at a place with access to a microwave and don't go out for dinner and your ahead of the game.



Yes, but there are some of us who's only cost is gas, then the percent increase is huge.  More than half my days on the east this year were hiking for turns.  I bring a lunch and don't eat supper until I get home.  Sometimes I'll spend $4 for breakfast.  An increase from $3 to $5 will therefore make a huge difference for me since I do so many long day trips.  It won't really affect me too much though since I'm such a cheap bastard in every other aspect of life that I always have a lot of money saved up.  It will just make me reconsider going up when conditions are marginal if I don't have someone to split the gas with.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 12, 2008)

For me....the high price of gas is a problem but not one to go screaming into the night. Most of us have services/products and recreation which are discretionarey items....we don't need them to survive. You have to evaluate that and decide which ones are the most important. Not easy but imperative. Assess, adapt and overcome.

With three teenagers/young adults, all who drive, this has been an incredible learning, dare I say, reality check for them. They all work. 

Personally I believe the prices of crude are not supported by fundementals but by speculation, it's bubble, it will burst. 

A Geoff mentioned part of the unreal price of crude supports is the weak dollar. It's a big one. 

Supply is another part of the problem but increased drilling for increased supply will do nothing as we have a huge bottleneck in the pipeline. With no new refineries builtt in 37 years, some have expanded, means that without refinery capacity expansion, more production would solve anything. There are some new huge refineries close to being put online in Russia and China. 

Drilling in places like the tiny ANWR would be totally lame IMHO as it would do nothing to solve the problem. The big oil companies are trying to increase production at places where it makes sense. They whine alot but billions in profits means they have plenty of money to invest in this. They know that they have to find new oil to keep the money rolling in.

I worked in Gillette, Wyoming(1976-1978) the nations center of low sulfur coal production for potential clean energy producing source. They have several huge surface mines employing thousands to mine the coal. This is surface mining, the miners drive huge air conditioned Trex trucks. This is not Kentucky coal mining. If Campell County was a country it would be 5th in the world in coal reserves. With advances in power plant environmental emission controls like scrubber on their stacks it could be part of the solution.

There is not much we can really do at the moment about demand. Domestically we have reduced our demand by about 5% but the demand by the energy sucking industrial growth of Chine, India and other countries growing like weeds means demand has been great. That demand might be flattening out?

We have to stop thinking short time and start being serious about alternative energy. 

There are currently several major headwinds in the present for the ski business as well as many of the businesses nationwide. If things do not break as far as the price of oil soon there is alot of discussion out there as to whether that will hurt or help the ski resorts in New England.


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## pepperdawg (Jun 12, 2008)

ckofer said:


> A) D) The phrase "worker bee" may offend some





Yeah some of us prefer "Data Monkeys"....


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## pepperdawg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I'm sure Greg is a great example of a good parent-when he let's the kids out of the basement:lol:




POTD for Thursday??


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## wa-loaf (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I'm getting older @ 35 but g.f. is 25 so we have +- 15 years to change our minds. I don't think it will ever happen though.



:lol: If you are still together in 10 years she will.


I want the price of gas to go where it is going and settle down. Whether it is $4 or $7 or more. But the constant and rapid rise is the problem, once it hits it's equilibrium everything else will catch-up sooner or later. Some stability is key.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> are you kidding me:smash:
> 
> 
> I have 18 years of experience form the other side as being a child. I'm conciously trying to do the opposite of what my parents did. They both worked their ass off and could have been less owned by their jobs. They were spenders.



I have 28 years experience being a child..:smash:My parents still spend major dinero on me and my sister..taking us out to dinner..family trips...and my Mom even buys me clothes sometimes..lol..but my parents are rich so they can afford it..


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## mlctvt (Jun 12, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> What has increased over the years is the tax burden and the expenses that didn't even exist back then ..



Almost everyone now has cell phones $40-100/month, Cable or Sat TV $50-100/month, high speed Internet $25-50 /month, computers and other stuff "that we just can't live without" even though we did just fine without them 20-30 years ago. 
Even things like curbside garbage pickup $35-40/ month; When I was a kid everyone in the neighborhood either burned their trash or took it to the dump on Saturday morning.
I think I'm the only one in my neighborhood who still mows their own lawn.


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## 2knees (Jun 12, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> ..but my parents are rich so they can afford it..



Death is recession proof.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 12, 2008)

2knees said:


> Death is recession proof.





A big reason my Dad bought a local monument company 20 years ago..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 12, 2008)

I agree with mlctvt..people have so much more now..cell phones, cable/satallite TV..internet..3 car garages..even us die-hard skiers mostly have a quiver when back in the day..one pair of skis was fine..Americans are super-consumers..imagine if we all cut our budgets by 10 percent and socked that money away for the future..lol..that would be very un American like,  My Dad was saying the other day that him and most of his friends are going to need at least a few million to retire..and in a few decades..a few million will be nothing..


----------



## 2knees (Jun 12, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> A big reason my Dad bought a local monument company 20 years ago..




no matter the economy, people gonna kick it.  and what are you gonna do, leave dear ole dad in your meat freezer cause you cant afford a funeral?  I would assume the headstones you sell may be of the less expensive variety but they still gotta shell out the coin.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 12, 2008)

2knees said:


> no matter the economy, people gonna kick it.  and what are you gonna do, leave dear ole dad in your meat freezer cause you cant afford a funeral?  I would assume the headstones you sell may be of the less expensive variety but they still gotta shell out the coin.




For sure..even people who get cremated usually get at least a small marker...and we still sell lots of ornate involved monuments with sculpture work, custom ethcings and even the occasional Mauseleum....a 22 person mauseleum we just quoted was $250k+..we probably won't get the order but still..that's more than most houses in the town I live in..

80k a year is chump change for a family in a major northeast metro area..50k a year is good money for a single in a small town..but what about the majority of the US making under 40k a year..the fact of whether they go on ski trips or not isn't an issue..it's all about the basics....or living really cheap and sacrificing for skiing like Snoseek.  When I was a skibum I got by on under 20k a year..but I had lots of roommates and eating lunch at Subway was a luxury,,,I miss all the deep powder but not being broke..


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 12, 2008)

Need Little - Want Less - Love More. Make smart choices if yer feeling squeezed by inflation. Start saying No, I can do without that.


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## mlctvt (Jun 12, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Start saying No, I can do without that.



+1 , this is the best way to "be green"


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## mattchuck2 (Jun 12, 2008)

First of all, I think 50k is a pretty good salary, I make around that, and I know a lot of people who make less and are doing just fine (and yes, I have a wife and a mortgage).

Second of all, yes, the government should put more money into renewable resources.  But there is something that is slightly getting in the way of that spending:


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 12, 2008)

It's a disgrace. Pakistan is looming as a far greater problem than Iran. But they have little oil.


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## mattchuck2 (Jun 12, 2008)

Ehhh, I don't think a lot of people are thinking clearly when they say Iraq was a "war for oil".  That would imply that we'd get the oil, and the oil would be cheaper.

I think the war was delibrately engineered to drive up the price of oil (and therefore gas) so that Bush's friends' oil companies and Cheney's Halliburton would take in massive profits.  

I believe that the currency has been devalued for the same reason.  There's no way that the Fed Funds rate should be at 2.00% right now.  Isn't every other country around 4% or 5%?

My theories will be proven correct when Bush and Cheney get cushy seats on the boards of Oil and Oil Services Companies upon leaving the White House.

This may be too political for this forum, but you asked the question about Gas Prices, and this is what I think about them.


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## drjeff (Jun 12, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> Ehhh, I don't think a lot of people are thinking clearly when they say Iraq was a "war for oil".  That would imply that we'd get the oil, and the oil would be cheaper.
> 
> I think the war was delibrately engineered to drive up the price of oil (and therefore gas) so that Bush's friends' oil companies and Cheney's Halliburton would take in massive profits.
> 
> ...



The huge economic explosion of India and China, and subsequent vastly expanded oil demand of those close to 2 BILLION people, kind of shoot a few holes in your theories there


----------



## andyzee (Jun 12, 2008)

2knees said:


> Death is recession proof.


----------



## mattchuck2 (Jun 12, 2008)

drjeff said:


> The huge economic explosion of India and China, and subsequent vastly expanded oil demand of those close to 2 BILLION people, kind of shoot a few holes in your theories there



Indeed . . . but I'm still convinced that gas prices would be $2 lower if we had never gone into Iraq . . .  regardless of increased demand.

(Of course . . . I'm also convinced that gas would be $1 cheaper if there were tightened rules on commodity speculation)


----------



## mattchuck2 (Jun 12, 2008)

To answer the original question, though, I'll think twice about long trips (like the Trip I took to Maine this past winter), but I'll still be at Gore every weekend.


----------



## YardSaleDad (Jun 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Alternative energy/technology is not the immediate answer. I'm not sure what is, but come on....you don't think there is enough incentive for alternative energy already?



It is one of the two immediate answers.  The other is conservation.  Put one quarter of the resources of the "War" on terror into energy independence using existing solar, wind, bio, technology along with EVs and hybrids and we could say shove it to the Saudis in a few years.  Oh yeah and it might help that global warming thingy.

Or we could subsidize more hummers.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 12, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> Indeed . . . but I'm still convinced that gas prices would be $2 lower if we had never gone into Iraq . . .  regardless of increased demand.
> 
> (Of course . . . I'm also convinced that gas would be $1 cheaper if there were tightened rules on commodity speculation)



Definitely, because the cost of oil wouldn't jump up every time Dick Cheney threatens to bomb Iran. The Iraq (whatever your opinion of it) has destabilized oil supplies and cut way back on production in Iraq. And it certainly seems like the Oil companies are thriving financially in this environment.


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

Okay. We're firmly into politics now. Let's try to get this back on track, shall we?


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

I think all the little gunstock's, shawnee peak's, wachusettes, and sundown's are gonna make out real good from this. Could possibly be a shot in the arm for southern new england local/feeder hills.


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## Greg (Jun 12, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I think all the little gunstock's, shawnee peak's, wachusettes, and sundown's are gonna make out real good from this. Could possibly be a shot in the arm for southern new england local/feeder hills.



Definitely agreed. We all know how good the skiing was last December. Well, it was good down here too and I spent all but three of my December days at the mighty Sundown.


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I can see that the days of multiple season passes are coming to an end for me .. I would have had only two season passes for the upcoming season if hadn't been for the deal I got in on at Tenney.. I am waiting see what Crotched going to come up with for this season .. I still might get a Midnight Madness pass ... Gunstock isn't customer driven .. it's government directed and county at that. This fact alone is enough for me to explain the lack of consistent yearly improvements on the mountain.



I agree that Gunstock does not live up to its full potential. The place is a potential goldmine and a good size mountain for being so close to the seacoast area. I'm sure they pull a profit now which is good enough for Belknap County.

Isn't Crotched kind of a ways from Kittery?


----------



## snoseek (Jun 12, 2008)

I know I will be driving more to Loveland and less to places like Steamboat and Monarch. There is plans to open an old ski area only a half-hour from me-if that ever happens I will definately consider that. If I was in New England still I would stay closer to home also and make less loaf/saddleback excursions. I guess this is what needs to happen.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 12, 2008)

This and similar boards should be great for carpooling threads for folks that are flexible schedulewise and within reasonable driving distance. I'm already planning to try and do more spring skiing to take advantage of the lower prices. I did Whiteface in April and got a 4 day liftpass and motel room for 
145/pp. Gas was about 120 roundtrip. It's doable. SR has some pretty good deals during the week as well.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 13, 2008)

Based on what I’ve read and seen on news shows I believe speculators are the ones who are causing these hugh jumps in the price of oil. Before 1999 there where laws prohibiting what is happening now. Oil should be around $60-$70 a barrel based on supply and demand.

The housing market bubble burst, same with Internet companies. I believe the same will happen with oil.


----------



## YardSaleDad (Jun 13, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The housing market bubble burst, same with Internet companies. I believe the same will happen with oil.



While long term demand for the pets.com sock puppet was questionable, demand for energy is only increasing as supply off fossil fuels is only decreasing.  The longer we delay the transition to renewables, the higher the cost of oil will be.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 13, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The housing market bubble burst, same with Internet companies. I believe the same will happen with oil.



I certainly hope you are correct, but I think if it resets it's only going to be minor correction along a steady climb. If the dollar can get it's act together that sure would help.



YardSaleDad said:


> While long term demand for the pets.com sock puppet was questionable, demand for energy is only increasing as supply off fossil fuels is only decreasing.  The longer we delay the transition to renewables, the higher the cost of oil will be.



Definitely, regardless of what prices do in the short term, they are only going to keep going up in the long run. Hopefully this is a wake-up call for everyone.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 13, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> This and similar boards should be great for carpooling threads for folks that are flexible schedulewise and within reasonable driving distance. I'm already planning to try and do more spring skiing to take advantage of the lower prices. I did Whiteface in April and got a 4 day liftpass and motel room for
> 145/pp. Gas was about 120 roundtrip. It's doable. SR has some pretty good deals during the week as well.



I don't even bother with Vermont mid-season..it's crowded and expensive.  I'm mainly up there early and late season when lodging and lift tickets are deeply discounted...now Jackson Hole I like to hit in January because that's when they get the lightest driest powder...cold smoke..drool..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 13, 2008)

Greg said:


> Okay. We're firmly into politics now. Let's try to get this back on track, shall we?



Maybe there should be a politics forum..


----------



## mlctvt (Jun 13, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Maybe there should be a politics forum..




NOOO, I might end up hating 1/2 of the people posting here :-D


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## Phillycore (Jun 13, 2008)

after throwing down 4k in miles on my car last season...it's going to be sicktarded with the cost of petro this coming season..... won't stop me from going though...


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 13, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Maybe there should be a politics forum..



Maybe not. :flame: :uzi: :smash: :flag:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 13, 2008)

mlctvt said:


> NOOO, I might end up hating 1/2 of the people posting here :-D



I already hate 80 percent of the fuc9heads on here:-?


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## ckofer (Jun 13, 2008)

Okay GSS. Are all the posters eff-heads and you hate 80% of us, or is there a subset of eff-heads of which you hate 80%? Hate is such a strong term. It should be reserved for rain that falls on powder.


----------



## Lostone (Jun 13, 2008)

For those that think 50K is average...

Table 1.  Average annual wages for 2001 and 2002 
for all covered workers(1) by  state


    Average annual wages                             .................................Percent    change,    
    State(2)                                              
        2001-02    
......................................2001........             2002                       

UNITED STATES(3)......   $36,219...          $36,764...............          1.5    
Granted these numbers are for 2001 and 2002, but wages have not gone up that much.

Source: Bureau of labor Statistics

We sometimes forget how much better we have it than others.  :???:


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## ckofer (Jun 14, 2008)

Lostone said:


> We sometimes forget how much better we have it than others.  :???:



You are correct about that but the let's get back to the original discussion. Since wages are unlikely to move up rapidly in today's economy but prices of vitals such as food and gasoline are, what is left behind for recreation will dwindle. Couple that with higher fuel prices and I'll bet we will see many of "the average skiers" taking fewer trips. Marketed correctly, this could very much favor the hotel/motel industry near the mountains. Since I live in NH, I tend to day-trip. If fuel moves up any higher, it will probably be the same cost to stay at an inexpensive motel than drive home and take a second day trip.

I have cut and pasted this from the WMUR.com site:

*High Gas Prices Could Hurt Motorcycle Week*

*Organizers Expect Fewer Bikers To Make Trip*

POSTED: 5:30 pm EDT June 13, 2008












*LACONIA, N.H. -- *Rising gas prices may trim the turnout at this year's Motorcycle Week in Laconia, organizers said.Motorcycle Week is back for an 85th year, and Gov. John Lynch was on hand to kick off festivities on Friday. But organizers said they would be lucky to approach the 300,000 visitors who came to the event last year."Everyone's psyched up for it," organizer Jennifer Anderson said. "It's just going to be a little tighter on the purse strings."

 It's still relatively cheap to fill up a motorcycle, but Anderson said the day-to-day fuel costs are taking a toll. On top of that, rising prices for other items, such as groceries, means people have less money for a vacation, and fewer have the cash for Motorcycle Week."It was a least $200 a stop, and we stopped at least four to five times," said Carol Pollock, who drove from Florida. "We've got to do the same thing all the way back."Pollock said she and her husband weren't going to let higher prices wreck their fun. They drove an RV to Laconia, towing their motorcycles. Their total vacation cost will be close to $2,000."It's just fun," she said. "It's a good vacation getaway."Even though organizers expect fewer to attend this week's event, state and local police are still reminding people on the roads to keep an eye out for bikers.


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## kingslug (Jun 14, 2008)

Time to get rid of the Tahoe and downsize...waaaaaay downsize. The escalating cost of air travel has me more concerned though. Those trips to Utah that used to cost $250.00 round trip will double. As far as trips to VT, the bus is the best way now for day trips, even if they go up to $100.00 it's still a good deal. And thank God my town has it's own electric supply. It costs me under 2K a year for everything and my house is ALL electric. And if you want to see how things will really be soon.....go to Europe, they've been dealing with this for a loooong time!


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## Geoff (Jun 14, 2008)

kingslug said:


> And if you want to see how things will really be soon.....go to Europe, they've been dealing with this for a loooong time!



Europe has excellent public transportation.  If you want to go skiing, you get on a train or a bus.  The US has uncontrolled suburban sprawl.  Most people can't walk out their door and get on a trolley, subway, or bus.  At best, the US will start seeing more suburban Park & Ride lots.  If the ski resorts want people to show up, they're going to have to nurture day trip and weekend bus service.  The ski resorts are also going to have to fix their local bus loops so they work comparable to the western destination resorts where nobody needs a car.


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## Vinny (Jun 14, 2008)

Lostone said:


> For those that think 50K is average...
> 
> Table 1.  Average annual wages for 2001 and 2002
> for all covered workers(1) by  state
> ...



Just to add to this... here are more recent household income figures (note: the above numbers are individual, therefore the large discrepancy.) 

"Over all, the nation’s median household income rose to $48,201 in 2006, from $47,845 in 2005. It was the second consecutive year in which income rose slightly faster than inflation, after five years of decline."


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## Vinny (Jun 14, 2008)

Geoff said:


> Europe has excellent public transportation.  If you want to go skiing, you get on a train or a bus.  The US has uncontrolled suburban sprawl.  Most people can't walk out their door and get on a trolley, subway, or bus.  At best, the US will start seeing more suburban Park & Ride lots.  If the ski resorts want people to show up, they're going to have to nurture day trip and weekend bus service.  The ski resorts are also going to have to fix their local bus loops so they work comparable to the western destination resorts where nobody needs a car.



Although I may be looking at the issue through rose colored glasses, I believe our "fuel crisis" is going to have a long term very positive effect on our country and how we handle energy resources including transportation, heat/cooling, right down to the size of our homes and vehicles and how we get to the ski resort.  I'm a huge believer in capital markets, and the tipping point is  very near where people will be forced to look inward to see what they can do for themselves to lower their energy needs.  You can see it happening already.

The sad part is that there are a lot of people who are getting hurt in the process.  I don't lose sleep over the people who are going nuts trying to heat their 6,000 sf homes, but there are many who are just making ends meet who this is killing.  

Remember screaming about $1.00 gas prices?  Apparently it wasn't enough.  It  takes something this drastic to enable real long term change.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 14, 2008)

Tour bus operators should do a booming biz this season and resorts will offer packages/incentives to keep bodies on the slopes. I don't think they'll see a downturn of any significance. Good ski weather is prolly more important to the bottom line (less costly snow production) than 5/gal gas.


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## kingslug (Jun 14, 2008)

I remember how amazed I was at how different Europeans where concerning energy usage. Everything was smaller. Little Smart cars everywhere, bicycles, scooters, everyone shut off their engines at stop lights. refrigerators where tiny, even in one million dollar condos. Windows where very thick and sealed very tight, the heating unit was small enough to hang on a wall. Just a totaly different culture. We'll be there in time.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 16, 2008)

Lostone said:


> For those that think 50K is average...
> 
> Table 1.  Average annual wages for 2001 and 2002
> for all covered workers(1) by  state
> ...




I know that a higher percentage of skiers/riders have college degrees so that partially attributes to our high salaries..but wow..36 grand a year is not very much..granted those numbers are from 2002..but that would be tough to live comfortably on for most..except those just out of college with little or no expenses..


----------



## kingslug (Jun 17, 2008)

One question:

The Baker electric car was invented around 1912 or so..........................and only now we are coming out with an electric car......again. So what happened in between.


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## ERJ-145CA (Jun 17, 2008)

Since I drive a Corolla gas prices really won't affect where I ski next season.  What is going to have an effect is that my son starts half day kindergarten in September so I'll have to ski locally a lot more (Hidden Valley, MC or Mt. Peter) so I can drop him at school in the afternoon, then go skiing.  I got us both a pass at HV so I plan on taking him some mornings and also some weekends.


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## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

Someone sent this to me. Not sure how effective it will be, but I thought I'd pass this along and let you decide for yourself:

http://www.americansolutions.com/drillnow

I thought it looked a bit hokey, but then discovered Newt Gringrich is behind the campaign. Agree with him or not, I do appreciate the way he doesn't sugarcoat anything.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> Someone sent this to me. Not sure how effective it will be, but I thought I'd pass this along and let you decide for yourself:
> 
> http://www.americansolutions.com/drillnow
> 
> I thought it looked a bit hokey, but then discovered Newt Gringrich is behind the campaign. Agree with him or not, I do appreciate the way he doesn't sugarcoat anything.



Even if we open ANWAR and start exploring more on the coasts it won't have any effect on prices for years. Not to mention what they can get from those sources is only a drop in the bucket. Funny how people who have been opposed to this for years suddenly change their minds in an election year.


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## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Even if we open ANWAR and start exploring more on the coasts it won't have any effect on prices for years. Not to mention what they can get from those sources is only a drop in the bucket. Funny how people who have been opposed to this for years suddenly change their minds in an election year.



That was my initial reaction. And without additional refining capacity, more crude doesn't really help, does it? Still, I think many people are starting to feel a bit desperate and are willing to look at any option. If/when gas reached $5/gallon, it's going to cost me $20 each day just to get to work. That sucks.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 19, 2008)

A few of our majors got 1-2 year no bid contracts to work Iraq's oilfields. That's the big hope that they can start dumping Iraqi crude on the markets. Maybe another coupla years before it has an impact.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 19, 2008)

No matter how we feel about fossil fuel, we die without it. Biggest consumer of oil? US military. Nuf said. If it gets dire, the pres can announce a national security threat and start drilling tomorrow. Apparently, the pain isn't severe enough to change minds on the subject. Let's see how they like 6/gal gas.

PS Oil is really just another form of concentrated solar energy, I'm surprised the oil industry hasn't "greened" up there propaganda, lol


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> If/when gas reached $5/gallon, it's going to cost me $20 each day just to get to work. That sucks.









:wink:


----------



## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> :wink:



Yeah right... :lol:


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## wa-loaf (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> Yeah right... :lol:



You can get this one for ski trips: :razz:


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## drjeff (Jun 19, 2008)

Here's a bit of a start to decreasing our demand

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/18/driving.cutbacks/index.html


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 19, 2008)

Didn't catch the name of the company but an application for the permits to construct a brand new nuke plant was filed somewhere today. Am I a great reporter or what...:lol:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> That was my initial reaction. And without additional refining capacity, more crude doesn't really help, does it? Still, I think many people are starting to feel a bit desperate and are willing to look at any option. If/when gas reached $5/gallon, it's going to cost me $20 each day just to get to work. That sucks.




You can always move to a house close to where you work..:uzi:


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## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> You can always move to a house close to where you work..:uzi:



Thanks for the obvious solution. :roll:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> Thanks for the obvious solution. :roll:



Well the long commutes people are willing to endure is a big reason for all of our gas consumption.


----------



## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well the long commutes people are willing to endure is a big reason for all of our gas consumption.



You're probably right, and I did consciously make that choice. More house for less money and I'm closer to skiing.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> You're probably right, and I did consciously make that choice. More house for less money and I'm closer to skiing.



I know some employers pay mileage for commuters.  Where I live there are people who commute 90 miles to Manhatten..crazy...mainly by driving to a park and ride and taking a bus..since there is no train from eastern PA..


----------



## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I know some employers pay mileage for commuters.



I have a better chance of negotiating telecommuting a few days a week.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> I have a better chance of negotiating telecommuting a few days a week.



that would be mad steezy yo...when you go night-skiing do you leave right from work??


----------



## awf170 (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> If/when gas reached $5/gallon, it's going to cost me $20 each day just to get to work. That sucks.



That's over $5000 a year.  Buy an old Civic for $5,000 and you will save $3,000 a year on gas.  How much is insurance in your area?  Even with high insurance rates my guess is it would still pay off in a few years.  Plus you can use the Civic for ski trips when the roads are good and you are by yourself or with one other person.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

awf170 said:


> That's over $5000 a year.  Buy an old Civic for $5,000 and you will save $3,000 a year on gas.  How much is insurance in your area?  Even with high insurance rates my guess is it would still pay off in a few years.  Plus you can use the Civic for ski trips when the roads are good and you are by yourself or with one other person.



Isn't gas/mileage used driving to and from work, a tax write-off..I only live 2 miles from work so it doesn't really apply to me..


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 19, 2008)

I wanna get one of those lawnmower engine propelled minibikes like the one in dumb n dumber


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## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

awf170 said:


> That's over $5000 a year.  Buy an old Civic for $5,000 and you will save $3,000 a year on gas.  How much is insurance in your area?  Even with high insurance rates my guess is it would still pay off in a few years.  Plus you can use the Civic for ski trips when the roads are good and you are by yourself or with one other person.



Maybe a good solution for a single teenager like yourself. Not exactly practical for hauling the family around though.


----------



## awf170 (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> Maybe a good solution for a single teenager like yourself. Not exactly practical for hauling the family around though.




Huh, you drive your family to work every day with you? I meant as an additional vehicle.


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## Greg (Jun 19, 2008)

awf170 said:


> Huh, you drive your family to work every day with you? I meant as an additional vehicle.



Yes. I drop off. Wife picks up.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Isn't gas/mileage used driving to and from work, a tax write-off..I only live 2 miles from work so it doesn't really apply to me..



Only if you work for yourself. You can write off parking garage fees and commuter passes up to a certain amount.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 19, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Only if you work for yourself.



Especially true if you drive a giant pick up truck or hummer.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Isn't gas/mileage used driving to and from work, a tax write-off..I only live 2 miles from work so it doesn't really apply to me..



Just be carefull with racking up all those write-offs, if you get too many you'll get the pleasure of learning about the Alternative Minimum Tax, which is a definate oxymoron!


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

Greg said:


> Maybe a good solution for a single teenager like yourself. Not exactly practical for hauling the family around though.



You have little kids..they can sit in the backseat of a Civic fine..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 19, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Just be carefull with racking up all those write-offs, if you get too many you'll get the pleasure of learning about the Alternative Minimum Tax, which is a definate oxymoron!



No need for me to worry...I pay the accountant a couple hundred every year and he's in charge of my taxes..


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## snoseek (Jun 20, 2008)

Greg said:


> Yes. I drop off. Wife picks up.



You would be suprised how much stuff you can cram into a Civic/Corrolla ect.... if you have 2 kids or less you all set. Four adults can ride comfortably, so 2 adults and 2 kids should have no issues. The trunk is decent also, they are good in the snow with proper tires.

There is also something to be said about the handling ability to easily park with these little cars.


----------



## nelsapbm (Jun 20, 2008)

I know plenty of people with families that drive Civics/Corollas/Accords and they get along just fine. AND YES, the ski, kayak, etc. One big "problem" in our society is that we feel like we need so much "stuff" (I'm guilty of that 'cause I love to shop LOL!). If the price of gas really is a back breaker for some, then you've really got to take stock and ask, do I actually need this, or do I really just want this.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 20, 2008)

snoseek said:


> You would be suprised how much stuff you can cram into a Civic/Corrolla ect.... if you have 2 kids or less you all set. Four adults can ride comfortably, so 2 adults and 2 kids should have no issues. The trunk is decent also, they are good in the snow with proper tires.
> 
> There is also something to be said about the handling ability to easily park with these little cars.



4 adults in a Civic...maybe if they're midgets or the front seats are moved way up..I feel bad when I have backseat passengers in my Impreza...but when I'm driving I'm laid back..with my mind on my money and my money on my mind..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 20, 2008)

People are driving 2% less so far and with prices rising like crazy everywhere..consumption is down in China as well since in a place like Beijing average income is $3,000.  Which means maybe prices will drop..lol


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 20, 2008)

Greg said:


> Someone sent this to me. Not sure how effective it will be, but I thought I'd pass this along and let you decide for yourself:
> 
> http://www.americansolutions.com/drillnow
> 
> I thought it looked a bit hokey, but then discovered Newt Gringrich is behind the campaign. Agree with him or not, I do appreciate the way he doesn't sugarcoat anything.



Yea, so the Oil companies should try using the 68 million acres they already have leased from the gov't before we even think about giving them anymore.



> Washington, D.C. - In an effort to compel oil and gas companies to produce on the 68 million acres of federal lands, both onshore and offshore, that are leased but sitting idle, House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Nick J. Rahall (D-WV) today introduced legislation that gives Big Oil one option - either "use it or lose it."
> 
> "Big Oil, as many Americans already suspect, are perfectly fine with high gasoline prices at the pump while they hold back domestic production on federal leases and enjoy world record profits.  I am calling them on the carpet. I am calling their bluff.  We are not going to continue to allow them to speculate and profiteer with public resources to the detriment of the American people," Rahall said.
> 
> ...



Source


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## mlctvt (Jun 20, 2008)

snoseek said:


> You would be suprised how much stuff you can cram into a Civic/Corrolla ect.... if you have 2 kids or less you all set. Four adults can ride comfortably, so 2 adults and 2 kids should have no issues. The trunk is decent also, they are good in the snow with proper tires.
> 
> There is also something to be said about the handling ability to easily park with these little cars.



Or better yet a small hatchback! I once had a VW GTI that was very comfortable for 4 adults. I used it for a cycling vacation once with my wife and another couple. four bikes on the roof, four full size luggage bags in the back , four sets of cycling gear and four adults on a long drive. It worked fine. It was only a 2-door hatchback but very similar to a small wagon.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 22, 2008)

Bump..prices dropped at a few local stations by 3-4 cents since yesterday..


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## ERJ-145CA (Jun 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> but when I'm driving I'm laid back..with my mind on my money and my money on my mind..



Are you rollin' down the street smokin' indo, sippin' on gin and juice?


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Jun 22, 2008)

China just greatly reduced their gas subsidy so the price basically doubled at the pump for them which should reduce their global.consumption and therefore reduce demand which should reduce prices....maybe.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 22, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Are you rollin' down the street smokin' indo, sippin' on gin and juice?



how did you know??


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Jun 22, 2008)

S N double O P told me.


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## mountainman (Jun 22, 2008)

*Get over it.*

Still do want you want to do. If their is a will their is a way. Put the boards on and go you can't help it.


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## bigbog (Jun 22, 2008)

*...open 7 days/wk = becoming a dinasaur...?*

Just a guess...but I think we might see some resorts closing down for a few days/week...from day 1 throughout the season...just a guess.
If I'm echoing a previous...sorry, didn't go past page 2;-)
> 4 adults in a Civic...maybe if they're midgets or the front seats are moved way up..
My 73' Corolla had just as much room as your Civics do now....granted it wasn't much...but we got out every so often to stretch.   We did three _A Lot!_...not four, but it didn't damage my psychic(sp?) to load up.

$.01


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 23, 2008)

bigbog said:


> Just a guess...but I think we might see some resorts closing down for a few days/week...from day 1 throughout the season...just a guess.



I can see this happening especially at the smaller resorts...as long as Blue mountain doesn't pull that crap...:argue:


----------



## Geoff (Jun 24, 2008)

mlctvt said:


> Or better yet a small hatchback! I once had a VW GTI that was very comfortable for 4 adults. I used it for a cycling vacation once with my wife and another couple. four bikes on the roof, four full size luggage bags in the back , four sets of cycling gear and four adults on a long drive. It worked fine. It was only a 2-door hatchback but very similar to a small wagon.




I'm on my 2nd GTI.  The average height in the US is  5'9½" for men and 5'4" for women.  I'm 6'2" so I drive with the seat all the way back.  Ain't no way anybody is sitting behind me.  It's just fine for 3 people.

I suppose you could put two average sized couples in a GTI.  If you pull out the cargo cover in the back, you could fit enough luggage for a week.

I'm thinking about putting a receiver hitch on mine.  I hate Thule bars and I'm getting tired of coaxing my mountain bike in and out of the sucker.  My road bike won't fit at all.  With a receiver hitch, I can have a bike rack, a ski rack, a wire mesh box, and a place to put a small utility trailer.  That reminds me... I need to pull the SUV out of the garage and drive it today.  It hasn't moved in 6 or 7 weeks.


----------



## Greg (Nov 16, 2008)

askstowell said:


> Anyone else worried?



Not any more... :lol:

Seriously prices here in CT are approaching $2.00. I hope we hold onto these prices through the ski season...


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 16, 2008)

Yesterday I filled up for $2.14 and it was way under $30..I wonder how long it will stay this low..it has to be a good thing for the ski resorts.


----------



## Greg (Nov 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wonder how long it will stay this low..it has to be a good thing for the ski resorts.



I wonder how many of the small local feeder hills were planning to capitalize on high gas prices, i.e. betting that folks would ski locally vs. traveling to the bigger resorts.


----------



## RootDKJ (Nov 16, 2008)

I saw $1.93 for credit & $1.85 for cast on Rt. 22 in Union yesterday.

Awesome it's so low right now.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> I wonder how many of the small local feeder hills were planning to capitalize on high gas prices, i.e. betting that folks would ski locally vs. traveling to the bigger resorts.



I think the low gas prices will help all ski areas.  Alot of people who ski Blue mountain live in the Philadelphia area and drive 75 miles to Blue..if gas was $4 I don't think they'd go as often.  For diehards 75 miles is nothing but for casual skiers it's far.  I don't like to drive 75 miles to play golf..

Destination resorts have lots of lodging specials and alot of hotels kept their prices the same as last season..airfare has dropped since fuel prices and demand have declined..This ski season could be alot more reasonable for many of us than last season..


----------



## RootDKJ (Nov 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I think the low gas prices will help all ski areas.  Alot of people who ski Blue mountain live in the Philadelphia area and drive 75 miles to Blue..if gas was $4 I don't think they'd go as often.  For diehards 75 miles is nothing but for casual skiers it's far.  I don't like to drive 75 miles to play golf..
> 
> Destination resorts have lots of lodging specials and alot of hotels kept their prices the same as last season..airfare has dropped since fuel prices and demand have declined..This ski season could be alot more reasonable for many of us than last season..


It's just about 80 miles for me to get to Blue vs. 70 to Camelback vs. 50 to Mountain Creek

I think the cheap gas will defiantly bring out some folks this winter.  I know I'm looking to break my personal ski day and vert records this season!


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 16, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> It's just about 80 miles for me to get to Blue vs. 70 to Camelback vs. 50 to Mountain Creek
> 
> I think the cheap gas will defiantly bring out some folks this winter.  I know I'm looking to break my personal ski day and vert records this season!



You can keep track of vert at www.paskiandride.com I've been #1 in vert the past three seasons..even with alot of 3 hour sessions..


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2008)

$1.85 here in town 

I'm happy, but I'm also pretty pissed at the same time considering how high they were this summer.  It just doesn't seem right to me how market betting, not supply and demand, determines the price on commodities.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> You can keep track of vert at www.paskiandride.com I've been #1 in vert the past three seasons..even with alot of 3 hour sessions..


I saw that.  I've tracked it via Excel, but was thinking about making an Access database this year.  Online seems much easier though.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 16, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> I saw that.  I've tracked it via Excel, but was thinking about making an Access database this year.  Online seems much easier though.



It's great if you like numbers and statistics.  It's going to be tough for me to beat my 61,000 vert day from two years ago at Jackson Hole..maybe one day I'll ski Blue from 8AM to 10PM


----------



## andyzee (Nov 16, 2008)

As I was passing a gas station by my house this morning, they were just changing the price to 1.84. The station up the block always has the lowest and they have not changed their price yet.


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## Moe Ghoul (Nov 16, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> $1.85 here in town
> 
> I'm happy, but I'm also pretty pissed at the same time considering how high they were this summer.  It just doesn't seem right to me how market betting, not supply and demand, determines the price on commodities.



Demand globally is down, markets always overshoot on the upside and downside. The question is, will we (consumers) go back to driving everywhere all the time thinking that cheap gas will stay for the foreseeable future? Does Detroit decide it can pump out gas guzzlers? How does cheap gas move us away from it? Tough to ween the addict off a drug when the market is flooded with "cheap" product. The stronger dollar has contributed to the commodity collapse as well, go back to the Volker years and you can see it repeated then. That said, let's enjoy the short term savings for ski season.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2008)

Oh I'm sure demand is down, but it's definitely not less than half what it was this summer.  I feel sorry for the poor bastards who locked into heating oil prices this summer.


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## andyzee (Nov 16, 2008)

I think we should sell OPEC milk at $10 a gallon so they have something to wash down the gas with.


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## MadPadraic (Nov 16, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> $1.85 here in town
> 
> I'm happy, but I'm also pretty pissed at the same time considering how high they were this summer.  It just doesn't seem right to me how market betting, not supply and demand, determines the price on commodities.



I'd argue that it *is* supply and demand that have been controlling the price of oil and speculation played a minimal role, if any.


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## MadPadraic (Nov 16, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> My BMW is a 3 yr lease, another 1.5 yrs on it. Might try to persuade the wife to look at hybrids. The new Camry's are nice looking, will have to see whats on the market then. I own and plan to keep the 03 Pilot until decent SUV hybrids are produced. I only have ~33,000 miles on it.



The BMW 120d is where its at. If only it were available here.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2008)

MadPadraic said:


> I'd argue that it *is* supply and demand that have been controlling the price of oil and speculation played a minimal role, if any.



So you're saying the demand this summer was more than double what it is now???? :???:


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## trtaylor (Nov 16, 2008)

MadPadraic said:


> I'd argue that it *is* supply and demand that have been controlling the price of oil and speculation played a minimal role, if any.


Speculation plays a significant role in all commodity markets. Just the way it is.


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## sledhaulingmedic (Nov 16, 2008)

trtaylor said:


> Speculation plays a significant role in all commodity markets. Just the way it is.



It's hard to believe that speculation wasn't the major force behind the recent wild ride.  After all, when the credit markets seized up,  there was no money to buy futures on margin and the price of oil went into a tail spin.


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 16, 2008)

Nothing has changed regarding the oil future traders(the so called evil speculators). They are driven by supply and demand and a big reason the price of a barrel of crude went down so fast was that they started shorting(investing with the mantra that the price was going down) the oil market.

The price at the pump might go down abit more and then will stableize then will go back up. I'm no genius, it's the prevailing forecast.


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## mondeo (Nov 16, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Demand globally is down, markets always overshoot on the upside and downside.



QFT.

My gut feel is that oil should be at about $80/barrel now, and should have been $120/barrel in the summer. People are missing out on how much the euro has weakened.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 16, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> So you're saying the demand this summer was more than double what it is now???? :???:



No but the price for a barrel of oil was..


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