# Summer 2017 Resort Upgrades



## Zand (Jun 3, 2017)

Now that the off-season is officially here, what areas are doing lift/lodge/trail/etc upgrades that we know of?


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## machski (Jun 4, 2017)

Spruce triple returns at SR and I think maybe Phase II of the Mountain Room at the Peak Lodge.

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## Smellytele (Jun 4, 2017)

Pats Peak replacing peak double with "new" triple.


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## drjeff (Jun 4, 2017)

Mount Snow is basically doubling their water pumping capacity up to 12,000 gpm and increasing their water storage capacity 6 fold up to 120 million gallons as well as replacing miles of snowmaking pipe

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## slatham (Jun 4, 2017)

Magic:

Installing/finishing the Green (mid mountain) double chair
New Magic Carpet lift

Snowmaking pipe replacement, notably significant base area water feeder pipe.
Snowmaking pipe repair to bring several trails back "online".
Pond repair (taking it off stream so it's a storage pond and rerouting stream). With dam repaired it will hold significantly more water. 

And a laundry list of other items that will make a big difference at Magic.

Do Work is doing a lot of work, aided and abetted by JamaciaMan and his merry band of investors.....


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## xlr8r (Jun 4, 2017)

New T Bar at Burke
2 new quads at Sugarbush
Finishing trail clearing/grading/snowmaking on Green Peak at Waterville


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2017)

Out here in Utah:

Cecret Double and Supreme Triple are getting replaced with one new HSQ at Alta.


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## tumbler (Jun 5, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Out here in Utah:
> 
> Cecret Double and Supreme Triple are getting replaced with one new HSQ at Alta.



What is the local feeling on that?


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## Glenn (Jun 5, 2017)

Mount Snow is widening Long John. They've got some good pics on the blog section of their website.


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 5, 2017)

Does anybody know if anything is happening at Sugarloaf this year?


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## Sacadelic_Skier (Jun 5, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> Does anybody know if anything is happening at Sugarloaf this year?



i hope so


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## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> Does anybody know if anything is happening at Sugarloaf this year?



I'm not sure if it will happen this year, but they have permits in place to cut a trail for snow cat service on Burnt Mountain.  It would go to just below the summit.  At the AZ summit they said they weren't sure if they'd receive the funding this summer from corporate to build the trail and buy the snow cat, but it is definitely the plan for Burnt.


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm surprised to see no announcement or progress toward a Bucksaw replacement. On one hand, they don't really need it given SuperQuad capacity and improved reliability and intermediate terrain serviced by the WhiffleTree quad. On the other hand, why the hell hasn't Sugarloaf installed a new high speed lift in over 20 years? Not long ago Sugarloaf used to try to remain competitive with its peers and aim for #1 in the east. Summer seasons with Boyne now consist of paint the fence, wax-on, wax-off, and no flying crane kicks. I'm looking forward to some kind of announcement soon to demonstrate that the new owner recognizes the severity of its deferred capital expenditures budget and is willing to take corrective action.


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## tumbler (Jun 5, 2017)

Not really construction but an improvement.  Sugarbush rebranded Timbers to Rumble's Kitchen, with new menu, manager and vibe.  I hope it is good, I would much rather be in there than the Pub.  Fingers crossed!


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## chuckstah (Jun 5, 2017)

The Boyne rumor from this spring said no capital improvement money, zero, available this summer outside of the announced projects at SR. Expect a big announcement at some point for spring of 2018 when the new lease holder will pony up some cash.  Word is gondola replacement at Loon, and maybe the new pulse gondy will finally go in at South Peak. Have not heard any Loaf news yet. Only a rumor but from someone in the know. 

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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> What is the local feeling on that?



That is a good question.  So far I have not heard a lot of feedback when talking to folks.  Nobody is really happy or mad.  I know that a lot of folks complained about the Supreme last season--it was a fixed triple with a carpet loader.  The carpet was breaking.  Honestly I thought it was fine.  

The big upset is that local company Doppelmayr lost the job to Poma.  This is the first major Poma install in the Wasatch since they did work at the former Canyons more than 20 years ago.  

More folks are upset about the proposed "mini-tram" that Alta wants to install to the top of Baldy.


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## Jully (Jun 5, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> I'm surprised to see no announcement or progress toward a Bucksaw replacement. On one hand, they don't really need it given SuperQuad capacity and improved reliability and intermediate terrain serviced by the WhiffleTree quad. On the other hand, why the hell hasn't Sugarloaf installed a new high speed lift in over 20 years? Not long ago Sugarloaf used to try to remain competitive with its peers and aim for #1 in the east. Summer seasons with Boyne now consist of paint the fence, wax-on, wax-off, and no flying crane kicks. I'm looking forward to some kind of announcement soon to demonstrate that the new owner recognizes the severity of its deferred capital expenditures budget and is willing to take corrective action.



Bucksaw is unlikely to be replaced anytime soon. When they took it out, they didn't mention anything about a replacement in the near future (or at all IIRC). Can't disagree with what you've said about Boyne. It appears to be part of their REIT model though. CNL wasn't putting up any money so nothing got done. Yes SL only has 2 HSQs, but their lift system isn't in shambles right now. It compares pretty nicely to most other NE resorts minus Okemo, Stratton, and Snow for the most part. 

 Hopefully what Chuckstah said is right and 2018 will bring some money to all the boyne NE resorts. A gondola replacement at Loon would pretty much fully bring it in line with its VT upscale competition.


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 5, 2017)

Wow, it sounds like Loon is getting some love. Twenty years ago who would have thought that Loon Mountain would overtake Sugarloaf as   the superior resort.


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## tumbler (Jun 5, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That is a good question. So far I have not heard a lot of feedback when talking to folks. Nobody is really happy or mad. I know that a lot of folks complained about the Supreme last season--it was a fixed triple with a carpet loader. The carpet was breaking. Honestly I thought it was fine.
> 
> The big upset is that local company Doppelmayr lost the job to Poma. This is the first major Poma install in the Wasatch since they did work at the former Canyons more than 20 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Not really construction but an improvement.  Sugarbush rebranded Timbers to Rumble's Kitchen, with new menu, manager and vibe.  I hope it is good, I would much rather be in there than the Pub.  Fingers crossed!



It will be interesting to see how this impacts CR Pub. I can definitely see it taking some load off CR Pub and perhaps even becoming the more popular choice eventually.


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## benski (Jun 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Not really construction but an improvement.  Sugarbush rebranded Timbers to Rumble's Kitchen, with new menu, manager and vibe.  I hope it is good, I would much rather be in there than the Pub.  Fingers crossed!



I think most importantly it will reset the Yelp review. The place has 3 stars which meanwhile all the other restaurants in the valley have 4-5.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I forgot about the tram thing to Baldy- is it designed so you ski just Alta side or can you drop into Snowbird?  I might have the geogaphy off.
> 
> I was wondering if the locals would be pissed about more traffic in Supreme but if the lift was having issues then it sounds like a good idea.  It ran fine when I was there and I really liked the terrain up there.  Makes more sense layout wise without Cecret.



So the proposal was an 8-10 person tram, similar to Snowbasin's, that would leave from the top of Collins and end on the summit of Baldy.  From there it is really easy to ski right down into Snowbird.  In fact, you can do it with no cliffs.  For me, an Alta-Bird Passholder, that would be cool.  But I do enjoy hiking up there as it is.  

Supreme: I think that it was a "poor man's express lift" that was upgraded right around the time that they did Sugarloaf and Collins.  I will miss Cecret, but that lift was WAY underused.  Supreme, IMHO, worked just fine.  That said, it was a Frankenlift with multiple parts including Yan towers and terminals and I bet it was getting aged.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2017)

Here is where Alta has posted their plans:  http://www.alta.com/the-mountain/future-plans

Here is their NFS notice:  http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155....com/11558/www/nepa/103726_FSPLT3_3033529.pdf


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## machski (Jun 6, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> The Boyne rumor from this spring said no capital improvement money, zero, available this summer outside of the announced projects at SR. Expect a big announcement at some point for spring of 2018 when the new lease holder will pony up some cash.  Word is gondola replacement at Loon, and maybe the new pulse gondy will finally go in at South Peak. Have not heard any Loaf news yet. Only a rumor but from someone in the know.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app


Correct, SR's Spruce replacement was carved and scraped together $$ wise last fall.  Anticipate a courtship period with O-Z before you see any capital investment.  My source close suggested two more years of waiting before you see any capital moving at Boyne east resorts.  That could obviously change in any direction.

As to Loon, I very much doubt a Gondi replacement first.  They have a severe need to put in the learner's pod on South first and foremost.  Not only is it for that, that is to become the public Access point at South.  The pulse gondola is not being installed by Loon, rather by the Loon Riverwalk development as I understand it.  I do not believe the public will have access to it, it will be for Riverwalk owners/guests to get across the river.  But it won't go in until the learner pod does as it terminates at the new base of south (this relying on the new learner quads for full uphill access).

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## bdfreetuna (Jun 6, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> Wow, it sounds like Loon is getting some love. Twenty years ago who would have thought that Loon Mountain would overtake Sugarloaf as   the superior resort.



Just wait until the Flume/Lincoln/Lafayette across the road expansion.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> Wow, it sounds like Loon is getting some love. Twenty years ago who would have thought that Loon Mountain would overtake Sugarloaf as   the superior resort.



Still a ways to go before that but they are getting some love. Some love is better than abandonment.


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## Jully (Jun 6, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Still a ways to go before that but they are getting some love. Some love is better than abandonment.



Agreed. Superior resort is also relative only to facilities. Unless Loon does a major expansion and develops its own Burnt Mountain equivalent, it will never be superior to the Loaf in that way.

Even for facilities though, the village at SL is a nice draw. Lift situation and luxury accommodations clearly go to Loon though.


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## chuckstah (Jun 6, 2017)

machski said:


> Correct, SR's Spruce replacement was carved and scraped together $$ wise last fall.  Anticipate a courtship period with O-Z before you see any capital investment.  My source close suggested two more years of waiting before you see any capital moving at Boyne east resorts.  That could obviously change in any direction.
> 
> As to Loon, I very much doubt a Gondi replacement first.  They have a severe need to put in the learner's pod on South first and foremost.  Not only is it for that, that is to become the public Access point at South.  The pulse gondola is not being installed by Loon, rather by the Loon Riverwalk development as I understand it.  I do not believe the public will have access to it, it will be for Riverwalk owners/guests to get across the river.  But it won't go in until the learner pod does as it terminates at the new base of south (this relying on the new learner quads for full uphill access).
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Good points.  Hopefully South Peak gets finished before the need for a gondola replacement, but I'll add a bit more of what I've heard. Again only a rumor at this point but here it is.  The gondola is nearing the end of it's useful life and NEEDS to be replaced at the end of next season.  It will be 30 years old, with towers from 1966 by next spring.  The lift will be scrapped, not sold.  I have heard even more details on timeline and estimated cost, but won't elaborate as things can and will change.  This could all be wrong, but sources are good.  It may come down to a refurb band-aid approach if the funds are not there, but Boyne and accidents on old lifts really doesn't need to make the news.  Again.

Edited to add a link to the S. Peak expansion map. 2 years old at this point
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8724/16291268943_fa38c8505d_z.jpg


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## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2017)

Does the gondola see much use during summer?  I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead.   If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?

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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Does the gondola see much use during summer?  I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead.   If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Their clientele like gondolas.


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## benski (Jun 6, 2017)

I think the less into skiing you are the more into gondolas, hence why they are much more popular for summer lifts than winter.


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## machski (Jun 6, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Does the gondola see much use during summer?  I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead.   If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Yes, it is in daily operations in the summer and then obviously for peeper season as well.

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## drjeff (Jun 7, 2017)

Hands down, as resorts look to increase their 4 season business, and for many that also includes the lucrative wedding business, having an enclosed lift that can transport a bunch of guests to a mountain top destination for a function in a comfortable, dry manor, regardless of the weather outside is a solid selling point.

Hence why I'm guessing that you'll see more and more "primary" lifts either being bubbles or a gondola/chondola type setup at resorts where they're looking to expand their 4 season business and it's time for either a primary lift upgrade or new installation of a lift that runs from a base area up to an area where there's a lodge in the immediate unloading area over the next decade.  We also have to remember than many of the primary lifts in New England are 20+ years old now, so replacement time, and the potential that that can bring, I'm sure is on the minds of many a resort owner and GM these days....


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2017)

I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.   

Wildcats setup really is ideal.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola.  I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up.  Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.  

Unless Loon feels like there is an opportunity to bring in after hours revenue at the small summit lodge, I would think either doing what Wildcat has done or installing a Chondola is the better choice than just a standard Gondola. 

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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.
> 
> Wildcats setup really is ideal.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola.  I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up.  Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.
> 
> ...



Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the Gondola cabs were bought second-hand, yes?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2017)

benski said:


> I think the less into skiing you are the more into gondolas, hence why they are much more popular for summer lifts than winter.



Exactly.  Non-skiers just do not have any experience, or comfort, with chairlifts.


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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Hands down, as resorts look to increase their 4 season business, and for many that also includes the lucrative wedding business, having an enclosed lift that can transport a bunch of guests to a mountain top destination for a function in a comfortable, dry manor, regardless of the weather outside is a solid selling point.
> 
> Hence why I'm guessing that you'll see more and more "primary" lifts either being bubbles or a gondola/chondola type setup at resorts where they're looking to expand their 4 season business and it's time for either a primary lift upgrade or new installation of a lift that runs from a base area up to an area where there's a lodge in the immediate unloading area over the next decade.  We also have to remember than many of the primary lifts in New England are 20+ years old now, so replacement time, and the potential that that can bring, I'm sure is on the minds of many a resort owner and GM these days....



With concern with the bubbles - they are good on cold windy days but they are like being in a room with a bad view. Seeing out of them is never very good and are either blue or orange in the north east, distorting your view.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the Gondola cabs were bought second-hand, yes?



I know the cabins were purchased after the initial HSQ was installed, but I do not know if they were used or not.


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 7, 2017)

I think the rationale for including one or several gondolas at a resort is increasing for four-season use as many have mentioned. I think they also serve other important functions: i) every resort should have a flagship lift for the purposes of marketing/branding, ii) cold and wet weather is a deterrent for both occasional and frequent skiers, iii) face-to-face 8-person seating makes skiing a more social sport, iv) non-skiers in the summer or beginning skiers in the winter may feel safer in an enclosed cabin, iv) enclosed cabins facilitate additional amenities such as heaters or audio systems (ski resorts need to innovate to grow), and v) provide mid-mountain or summit access to other revenue generating facilities that may appeal to skiers and non-skiers alike. Ski resorts have always been capital-intensive recreational facilities appealing primarily to those with disposable income. With the consolidation of ski resorts and introduction of professional management at smaller, local ski resorts, the stakes have been raised. Corporations like Vail Resorts, Powdr Corp, Boyne, etc, have access to cheap capital. As more east coast resorts fall under their purview, it will be interesting to see which east coast resorts are recipients of this capital, because in the long-run, it will determine which resorts thrive and which become "also-ran" resorts. The stark contrast between the development of Stratton and Magic Mountain comes to mind. Invest, innovate, and pray for snow.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.
> 
> Wildcats setup really is ideal.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola.  I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up.  Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.
> 
> ...



Are chondolas cheaper than a gondola? I agree with you that the Wildcat setup is the best, the chairs and gondolas also will both last longer. 

I do not see Loon ever installing a chairlift to replace their gondola though. Like others have said, Loon is known for their gondola and I think many people ski Loon over surrounding areas in part for their gondola.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2017)

Jully said:


> I know the cabins were purchased after the initial HSQ was installed, but I do not know if they were used or not.



I recall them coming from Whistler or something like that.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2017)

No information on New England ski History about where the gondola cars came from.  If they were bought used from somewhere I would think maybe an amusement park.  They are made of aluminum and very flimsy.  I couldn't see them being used in a harsh, winter, alpine environment

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## EPB (Jun 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> No information on New England ski History about where the gondola cars came from.  If they were bought used from somewhere I would think maybe an amusement park.  They are made of aluminum and very flimsy.  I couldn't see them being used in a harsh, winter, alpine environment
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Chairlift.org has them coming from a scenic gondola in Banff, Alberta. http://www.chairlift.org/wc.html


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## SIKSKIER (Jun 7, 2017)

Maybe its me but I avoid Gondis and trams like the plague.I've probably skied Loon 20 times and only rode the gogo twice.Then again,I've almost always been there in late spring and who the heck wants to sit inside facing a couple turds on a sunny day?


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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2017)

Someone mentioned heated gondi cabins and K's used to be at one time I believe and it was awful. Too warm for how skiers are dressed.


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## CoolMike (Jun 7, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Maybe its me but I avoid Gondis and trams like the plague.I've probably skied Loon 20 times and only rode the gogo twice.Then again,I've almost always been there in late spring and who the heck wants to sit inside facing a couple turds on a sunny day?



I generally avoid them as well.  Often they have longer wait times and you can get to the areas they serve in other ways.  I make an exception for night skiing in frigid temps - for example on cold nights at Sunday river riding the gondola is perfect with a few friends.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> Chairlift.org has them coming from a scenic gondola in Banff, Alberta. http://www.chairlift.org/wc.html



:lol:  I was close.


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## benski (Jun 7, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Someone mentioned heated gondi cabins and K's used to be at one time I believe and it was awful. Too warm for how skiers are dressed.



Killington should replace the sky ship gondola with a chairlift.


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## Newpylong (Jun 7, 2017)

That would be silly, even disregarding all other high priority lift needs. Chairlifts are optimized for uphill downhill capacity ratio. Gondolas are optimized for getting people from point A to point B and largely staying there. The Skyeship is a perfect fit where it is. There is only one run to the base consistently open.


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## xlr8r (Jun 7, 2017)

I bet when the time comes to upgrade the Gondola at Loon that they basically refurbish it instead of replace it.  This would mainly be the replacement of all grips, sheaves, and replace the chain cadence system with tires.  This has been done recently at Northstar and is taking place this summer at Steamboat.  Boyne seems to be as cheap as possible when it comes to lifts these days so this would be the cheapest option to get another 20 years out of the gondola.  The cabins unfortunately would probably remain as small as they are.  The towers I have no idea if they need replacing or not considering most are 50 years old.  

I wish they would replace it with a 8 passenger gondola to help with the lines.  The current 4 passenger cabins make the loon gondola one of the lowest capacity lifts in New England, save for maybe the single at MRG.  I do not see it ever getting replaced with a chair as the base of the lift in its big barn really cannot be moved.  There is no runout coming into the Octagon base, so there is no place to move the base of the lift out of the barn.  The barn really cannot be removed as it is a section of the base lodge.  I guess theoretically they could put a chair coming out of the barn, but it would be weird and require lots of snow moving constantly.  

Loon as it is though has a lot of possible additions and improvements outside of the gondola, its just a shame Boyne does not invest any more money besides snowmaking.  The new beginner area at South Peak is needed and is already approved for construction for a couple years now.  The current beginner area is rather lacking.  This would add another proper base lodge as the Pemi base is still just a tent 10 years after South Peak opened.  Originally hotel or condo lodging was supposed to be built at the location of the Pemi base, but that obviously has not been built.  Also there is still just a tent for overflow seating at the Governors base that has been there for 10 years.  It would be nice if they built a proper addition onto the Governors lodge to get rid of the tent.  

So while Sugarloaf might look neglected in comparison, there is still a lot of things Boyne should do at Loon if the would invest more capital.


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## Edd (Jun 7, 2017)

The lodging at Sugarloaf has become kind of a bum out for me, mostly. You need 6-10 people to get anything remotely decent. Anything less is extremely dated.


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 8, 2017)

It's remarkable that Sugarloaf hasn't built new lodging. They seemed to be borrowing and building a lot more in the 70's and 80's when the cost of capital was much higher. I work in restructuring and Hertz seemed to be a likely candidate for bankruptcy-- instead they recently borrowed $1.2 billion at 7.625% (!) to refinance a company that was levered 12.5x Total Debt / 2017E EBITDA (normal leverage would be maybe 4x). Ski resorts should be borrowing and building right now while money is cheap, because in a few years that might not be the case. This OpCo / PropCo structure that Boyne and others are using where REITs own the real estate and charge rent while operators try to eek out a thin margin causes both sides to be too conservative. The outcome is that resorts are more stable and surviving but they are not developing as fast as they used to... and skiers are riding lifts that should have been replaced decades ago and not enjoying the amenities that they are paying for but not receiving.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2017)

I don't think the market is there for more slopeside lodging at Sugarloaf. They already have a ton of it.  There are always a ton of units for sale at very reasonable prices that just aren't selling quickly.   This is the slow season for ski property sales and there are 89 on the market, many for a long time and very few either pending or with contracts.

http://www.beangroup.com/Search/ME/...,Condo,Mobile Homes/pno_2/sb_pl/v_galaryView/

The only way the situation changes is if HOAs put pressure on current owners to renovate their properties more if they wish to be in the rental pool.  Most owners right now are reluctant to invest much in their properties because perhaps more than any other Eastern ski area, those properties sit dormant for the vast majority of the year. Sugarloaf is an absolute ghost town in summer and that's unlikely to change.  Maine summers are all about the lakes and ocean.  Summer vacationers looking for a mountain experience will turn to the Whites or the Greens over Carrabasset Valley.

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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

This place, close to Sugarloaf, has been recommended to me. Anyone try it before? This is the tentative plan on my next trip. 

http://m.nestlewoodinn.com/?url=htt...om/&utm_referrer=https://www.google.com/#2685


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2017)

I'd also add that banks aren't lending to ski areas freely like they did 20 years ago.  That's why you are seeing REIT ownerships with leasing or EB5 type programs.  My father was a commercial lender in Boston during the 80s. His bank and others lended to ski areas all the time back then, but slowed way down in the 90s and my understanding is that's still the case today. It is a flat industry. Too much risk for default, so I'm sure if banks are willing to lend it is at interest rates that the ski area owners are reluctant to take on.

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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2017)

xlr8r said:


> I bet when the time comes to upgrade the Gondola at Loon that they basically refurbish it instead of replace it.  This would mainly be the replacement of all grips, sheaves, and replace the chain cadence system with tires.  This has been done recently at Northstar and is taking place this summer at Steamboat.  Boyne seems to be as cheap as possible when it comes to lifts these days so this would be the cheapest option to get another 20 years out of the gondola.  The cabins unfortunately would probably remain as small as they are.  The towers I have no idea if they need replacing or not considering most are 50 years old.
> 
> I wish they would replace it with a 8 passenger gondola to help with the lines.  The current 4 passenger cabins make the loon gondola one of the lowest capacity lifts in New England, save for maybe the single at MRG.  I do not see it ever getting replaced with a chair as the base of the lift in its big barn really cannot be moved.  There is no runout coming into the Octagon base, so there is no place to move the base of the lift out of the barn.  The barn really cannot be removed as it is a section of the base lodge.  I guess theoretically they could put a chair coming out of the barn, but it would be weird and require lots of snow moving constantly.
> 
> ...


If they redo the gondola on the cheap, maybe they look to upgrade the seven brothers chair at some point to move people out of the base faster?  

You make a good point about the barn and lack of real estate for people to line up for a chair with skis on.  

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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2017)

Edd said:


> This place, close to Sugarloaf, has been recommended to me. Anyone try it before? This is the tentative plan on my next trip.
> 
> http://m.nestlewoodinn.com/?url=htt...om/&utm_referrer=https://www.google.com/#2685


Looks like a great option, especially if it has shuttle pick-up and drop-off.  Stumbling distance from the Rack as well. A long stumble, but doable

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> You make a good point about the barn and lack of real estate for people to line up for a chair with skis on.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



That sucks big-time. I'd never considered it before but they appear to have boxed themselves in with that setup. I'd hope that there's a genius way around it but probably not.


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think the market is there for more slopeside lodging at Sugarloaf. They already have a ton of it.  There are always a ton of units for sale at very reasonable prices that just aren't selling quickly.   This is the slow season for ski property sales and there are 89 on the market, many for a long time and very few either pending or with contracts.
> 
> http://www.beangroup.com/Search/ME/...,Condo,Mobile Homes/pno_2/sb_pl/v_galaryView/
> 
> ...



I forgot how ridiculously cheap sugarloaf condos were to buy. The issue Edd raised though I agree with though for renters. A lot of places, especially bigger resorts, have a cheaper lodging option for 2 people or so on site. The non-condo options are the hotels which are rather expensive if you're trying to be frugal.


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## mbedle (Jun 8, 2017)

I also wonder what the association fees are for these condos at Sugarloaf. That is the problem that I am finding with Stowe condo's. The association fees are way to high.


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## TheArchitect (Jun 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So the proposal was an 8-10 person tram, similar to Snowbasin's, that would leave from the top of Collins and end on the summit of Baldy.  From there it is really easy to ski right down into Snowbird.  In fact, you can do it with no cliffs.  For me, an Alta-Bird Passholder, that would be cool.  But I do enjoy hiking up there as it is.
> 
> Supreme: I think that it was a "poor man's express lift" that was upgraded right around the time that they did Sugarloaf and Collins.  I will miss Cecret, but that lift was WAY underused.  Supreme, IMHO, worked just fine.  That said, it was a Frankenlift with multiple parts including Yan towers and terminals and I bet it was getting aged.



I thought I read somewhere that the tram to Baldy was meant for avalanche work access and it was only a possibility that it would be open to the public?


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> I forgot how ridiculously cheap sugarloaf condos were to buy. The issue Edd raised though I agree with though for renters. A lot of places, especially bigger resorts, have a cheaper lodging option for 2 people or so on site. The non-condo options are the hotels which are rather expensive if you're trying to be frugal.



Worse than pricing, which will always be expensive on-mountain so I get it, is the quality of the hotels and many condos. Some real Hot Tub Time Machine shit; frequently not clean and depressingly run down. Amplifying that is that Sugarloaf is pretty much the only game in town for nightlife so I feel a bit more screwed every time I go. But the skiing, ah the skiing.


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

Edd said:


> Worse than pricing, which will always be expensive on-mountain so I get it, is the quality of the hotels and many condos. Some real Hot Tub Time Machine shit; frequently not clean and depressingly run down. Amplifying that is that Sugarloaf is pretty much the only game in town for nightlife so I feel a bit more screwed every time I go. But the skiing, ah the skiing.



Yeah the condos are ancient. Compared to what is offered in VT these days... its completely different. I don't find it substantially worse than Attitash's options. Never stayed in a condo at SR.

SL's nightlife is certainly not great and carabassett is hardly a town haha, but like you said, its all for the skiing.


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> Yeah the condos are ancient. Compared to what is offered in VT these days... its completely different. I don't find it substantially worse than Attitash's options. Never stayed in a condo at SR.



SR is no better but at least you have Bethel and Attitash obviously has North Conway which changes things.


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> Yeah the condos are ancient. Compared to what is offered in VT these days... its completely different. I don't find it substantially worse than Attitash's options. Never stayed in a condo at SR.
> 
> SL's nightlife is certainly not great and carabassett is hardly a town haha, but like you said, its all for the skiing.


At SL you have really 2 evening choices - widowmaker or the Rack. Used to be the snowmobiler dive - strip joint  Carabassett Inn but that is now gone replace with a bowling alley I think


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2017)

While it is limited, I'm actually a big fan of the night life that Sugarloaf does have.  With everything on the shuttle or within walking distance, it's easy to party.  Though, I'm typically only there for three nights.  I could see getting bored if you were there for a week.  It's also pretty quiet midweek compared to other destinations that have actual towns.  Friday night and Saturday night I'll do the Rack one night and Widowmaker the next and I'm happy.  Only complaint is the Widowmaker is chronically understaffed.  Major waits for beers at that bar when it's busy.


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> While it is limited, I'm actually a big fan of the night life that Sugarloaf does have.  With everything on the shuttle or within walking distance, it's easy to party.  Though, I'm typically only there for three nights.  I could see getting bored if you were there for a week.  It's also pretty quiet midweek compared to other destinations that have actual towns.  Friday night and Saturday night I'll do the Rack one night and Widowmaker the next and I'm happy.  Only complaint is the Widowmaker is chronically understaffed.  Major waits for beers at that bar when it's busy.



I usually end up at both places on the same night when the band at one or the other sucks


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## Sacadelic_Skier (Jun 8, 2017)

you guys have no idea what you're talking about


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

Sacadelic_Skier said:


> you guys have no idea what you're talking about



About what?


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## Sacadelic_Skier (Jun 8, 2017)

lodging at sugarloaf... too funny


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> While it is limited, I'm actually a big fan of the night life that Sugarloaf does have.  With everything on the shuttle or within walking distance, it's easy to party.



I'm pretty much with you on that; I didn't intend to complain about nightlife but, because I want to be close to it I get stuck with their lodging too. 

I try to hit multiple places in a night, including Gepettos, the Double Diamond in the hotel, and the Sugarloaf Inn bar, all of which are open in the evening. We'll usually start at The Rack and get driving out of the way before we settle in at the village.


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2017)

Edd said:


> I'm pretty much with you on that; I didn't intend to complain about nightlife but, because I want to be close to it I get stuck with their lodging too.
> 
> I try to hit multiple places in a night, including Gepettos, the Double Diamond in the hotel, and the Sugarloaf Inn bar, all of which are open in the evening. We'll usually start at The Rack and get driving out of the way before we settle in at the village.



Bus goes to the rack. I have hit the SL inn (shipyard) good for a mellow time. DD sucks at least when I have been there.


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## machski (Jun 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> If they redo the gondola on the cheap, maybe they look to upgrade the seven brothers chair at some point to move people out of the base faster?
> 
> You make a good point about the barn and lack of real estate for people to line up for a chair with skis on.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Funny you mention Seven Brothers.  It was suppose to be upgraded to a HSQ but instead the triple got Boyne's first carpet loader.  Doubt they do anything with that now.

Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Jun 9, 2017)

Sacadelic_Skier said:


> lodging at sugarloaf... too funny



And how is that exactly?


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 9, 2017)

Jully said:


> And how is that exactly?



I am also quick to offer constructive criticism of lodging at the Loaf, but to be fair, there are plenty of other resorts that have copious B- or C+ product to offer in terms of lodging. I guess it's just the nature of the beast, but there are condos that time forgot all over the place. I've definitely stayed in rooms at Long Trail House at Stratton for $450/night that are pretty embarrassing- cheap 20 year old home depot grade finishes, coil stoves in the kitchen, closets doors falling off, bedding from the early 90's. I'll forgive a lot though when you're given a gas fireplace. The only place I've seen on the east coast that really nails lodging on the east coast is Stowe. Stowe Mountain Lodge is incredibly nice.


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## Jully (Jun 9, 2017)

goldenboy80 said:


> I am also quick to offer constructive criticism of lodging at the Loaf, but to be fair, there are plenty of other resorts that have copious B- or C+ product to offer in terms of lodging. I guess it's just the nature of the beast, but there are condos that time forgot all over the place. I've definitely stayed in rooms at Long Trail House at Stratton for $450/night that are pretty embarrassing- cheap 20 year old home depot grade finishes, coil stoves in the kitchen, closets doors falling off, bedding from the early 90's. I'll forgive a lot though when you're given a gas fireplace. The only place I've seen on the east coast that really nails lodging on the east coast is Stowe. Stowe Mountain Lodge is incredibly nice.



Oh certainly. Again, the condos in the Attitash Village are a similar vintage / feel IMO. While there are definitely older condos in VT too, I think overall VT has newer, fancier lodging than NH and ME, Loon being a big exception. While there is certainly newer stuff at SL too, it is a lot harder to get and even harder to find. Most people staying there will be in an older condo. I personally don't mind that at all as the fancier stuff isn't my style and is certainly more expensive than my style.

I really loved the Saddleback condos you could stay in (RIP). Those were perfect IMO, new, but still very affordable and on mountain.

Another thing about SL that I love is the plethora of affordable on-mountain condos (albeit older). Seems that so many places are moving toward more expensive on mountain options and if you want cheaper you have to be at least a 5-10 minute drive.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2017)

One option to perhaps give owners at all ski areas an incentive to update their units is to offer pictures of each unit and allow guests to pick their unit kind of like you pick airline or sporting event seats.

In looking at Sugarloaf's lodging booking, currently it's set up with a star rating system.  That enables guests to somewhat know the quality of the unit they are renting,  but there's still quite a bit of variance in upkeep within those units. 

To save the time/expense of setting up such a system, they could require unit orders to upload pictures annually to the reservation system in order to be in the rental pool.  By employing such a system, the best quality units would get booked first and more often.  If an owner wants their unit to generate the most rental income possible, it's in their best interest to keep it updated.  

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## goldenboy80 (Jun 9, 2017)

Deadheadskier- that's a great idea and a practical one at that.


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## machski (Jun 9, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> One option to perhaps give owners at all ski areas an incentive to update their units is to offer pictures of each unit and allow guests to pick their unit kind of like you pick airline or sporting event seats.
> 
> In looking at Sugarloaf's lodging booking, currently it's set up with a star rating system.  That enables guests to somewhat know the quality of the unit they are renting,  but there's still quite a bit of variance in upkeep within those units.
> 
> ...


The star system you speak of is a Boyne concept and one of the drivers that got SR out of the on mountain condo management business.  Many factors, but the star rating system was definitely one of them.

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## Jully (Jun 9, 2017)

machski said:


> The star system you speak of is a Boyne concept and one of the drivers that got SR out of the on mountain condo management business.  Many factors, but the star rating system was definitely one of them.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



How did the star rating get them out? Owners were unhappy with it?


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## machski (Jun 9, 2017)

Jully said:


> How did the star rating get them out? Owners were unhappy with it?


No, they were artificially boosting the properties by about a star.  It had to stop but to go from say a 1 to a 2 star, the property had to get a paved parking lot, covered front entry drive for starters.  And that was just outside improvements which is a considerable amount of capital.  Not to mention the units themselves.  SR knew they couldn't demand owners fork up for the upgrades so releasing the properties was the option chosen.  It also freed capital for SR to focus on the hotels, which while owned in shares, they have more control over upgrades and improvements than condos.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

More newly announced upgrades Sugarbush is working on this summer:

RFID gates at the base lifts
Replacing one of the 6,000 CFM Electric Compressors at Lincoln Peak with one that operates at variable rates
Purchasing another 60 SnowLogic guns


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> More newly announced upgrades Sugarbush is working on this summer:
> 
> RFID gates at the base lifts
> Replacing one of the 6,000 CFM Electric Compressors at Lincoln Peak with one that operates at variable rates
> Purchasing another 60 SnowLogic guns



Good news. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Jully (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> More newly announced upgrades Sugarbush is working on this summer:
> 
> RFID gates at the base lifts
> Replacing one of the 6,000 CFM Electric Compressors at Lincoln Peak with one that operates at variable rates
> Purchasing another 60 SnowLogic guns



Marks another resort going RFID. What's that bring the total up to now?
- Okemo?
- Stowe
- Jay
- Sugarbush
- Wachusett

Is that it?

As for the compressor, snowmaking improvements are always something I appreciate!


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## benski (Jul 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Marks another resort going RFID. What's that bring the total up to now?
> - Okemo?
> - Stowe
> - Jay
> ...



I think its an energy saving move. I think the new pipes are more exciting win has said that is a limiting factor of how much snow they can make on the upper mountain.


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## slatham (Jul 6, 2017)

benski said:


> I think its an energy saving move. I think the new pipes are more exciting win has said that is a limiting factor of how much snow they can make on the upper mountain.



Agreed, especially when they do not need full air capacity, which with all the new high efficiency guns is probably often. Why crank up (and pay for) 6k CFM when you only need 3k or 4k?


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## Jully (Jul 6, 2017)

slatham said:


> Agreed, especially when they do not need full air capacity, which with all the new high efficiency guns is probably often. Why crank up (and pay for) 6k CFM when you only need 3k or 4k?



Definitely energy and money saving. It could lead to more snowmaking though, depending on how they use the money saved.


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Definitely energy and money saving. It could lead to more snowmaking though, depending on how they use the money saved.



Yup, definitely energy and money saving and Win said essentially that. I don't think it would directly lead to more snowmaking as water is going to be Sugarbush's biggest limiting factor there for a while. We'll have to wait and see whether Sugarbush decides to change their standard practice of minimal trail resurfacing once they've buried it to the depth they want.


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## Jully (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yup, definitely energy and money saving and Win said essentially that. I don't think it would directly lead to more snowmaking as water is going to be Sugarbush's biggest limiting factor there for a while. We'll have to wait and see whether Sugarbush decides to change their standard practice of minimal trail resurfacing once they've buried it to the depth they want.



Some more resurfacing would be exactly my hope!


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## tumbler (Jul 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Some more resurfacing would be exactly my hope!



Don't count on it.  Very happy about the RFID though.  I would think that Slide Brook needs it also


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Don't count on it.  Very happy about the RFID though.  I would think that Slide Brook needs it also



I would think they plan to implement it on any of the lifts that currently have scanning. So yea, essentially base lifts plus Slide Brook on the ME side. I can't see any other easy way to ensure people going from ME to LP on Slide Brook have valid LP passes/tickets.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I would think they plan to implement it on any of the lifts that currently have scanning. So yea, essentially base lifts plus Slide Brook on the ME side. I can't see any other easy way to ensure people going from ME to LP on Slide Brook have valid LP passes/tickets.



Will be interesting to see if SBX has it.  I read it as only the feeder lifts.  Even then that is a lot of $$$.  Only the feeder lifts at Snowbird have RFID.  Alta, on the other hand, has it on all of their lifts.  Alta lets you get your ski history for all the lifts on their site for your pass, which is cool.  

So for SB, these lifts, if memory serves me right, will be getting RFID:

Inverness
GMX
Sunny D
SBX?

Village
Gatehouse
Bravo
Valley

Did I miss any?


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Will be interesting to see if SBX has it.  I read it as only the feeder lifts.  Even then that is a lot of $$$.  Only the feeder lifts at Snowbird have RFID.  Alta, on the other hand, has it on all of their lifts.  Alta lets you get your ski history for all the lifts on their site for your pass, which is cool.
> 
> So for SB, these lifts, if memory serves me right, will be getting RFID:
> 
> ...



I think you hit them all...but I wouldn't be surprised to see them skip Village. For the amount of terrain it serves it may not be worth it. I don't recall them ever scanning tickets/passes to get on that lift in the past and even though it will be a brand new lift this year, I still don't think it pays to put RFID gates just to access Easy Rider essentially.

I know Win's blog post read as only base/feeder lifts, but I have to think SBX is included as well. Otherwise, what's to stop people from parking at ME, buying a cheaper ME ticket/pass, and then taking SBX over to LP? Unless there's some kind of RFID hand-held scanner they could use instead since you really don't tend to have a lot of people lining up at the same time to take it anyway. That would be an option if that exists instead of full on gates.


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## Jully (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think you hit them all...but I wouldn't be surprised to see them skip Village. For the amount of terrain it serves it may not be worth it. I don't recall them ever scanning tickets/passes to get on that lift in the past and even though it will be a brand new lift this year, I still don't think it pays to put RFID gates just to access Easy Rider essentially.
> 
> I know Win's blog post read as only base/feeder lifts, but I have to think SBX is included as well. Otherwise, what's to stop people from parking at ME, buying a cheaper ME ticket/pass, and then taking SBX over to LP? Unless there's some kind of RFID hand-held scanner they could use instead since you really don't tend to have a lot of people lining up at the same time to take it anyway. That would be an option if that exists instead of full on gates.



There are hand held RFID scanners as opposed to the gates. Vail uses these at its resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think you hit them all...but I wouldn't be surprised to see them skip Village. For the amount of terrain it serves it may not be worth it. I don't recall them ever scanning tickets/passes to get on that lift in the past and even though it will be a brand new lift this year, I still don't think it pays to put RFID gates just to access Easy Rider essentially.
> 
> I know Win's blog post read as only base/feeder lifts, but I have to think SBX is included as well. Otherwise, what's to stop people from parking at ME, buying a cheaper ME ticket/pass, and then taking SBX over to LP? Unless there's some kind of RFID hand-held scanner they could use instead since you really don't tend to have a lot of people lining up at the same time to take it anyway. That would be an option if that exists instead of full on gates.



So if someone did buy a ME ticket, hopped on SBX, they would only be able to ski/ride North Lynx before getting stuck.  I suppose that they might be able to get to CR on a good day.  You couldn't get back to SBX without taking a base lift.  Is that a risk worth taking?  Especially since, in my experience now years ago, the lifties usually greet and check folks for passes before leaving Mount Ellen.


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So if someone did buy a ME ticket, hopped on SBX, they would only be able to ski/ride North Lynx before getting stuck.  I suppose that they might be able to get to CR on a good day.  You couldn't get back to SBX without taking a base lift.  Is that a risk worth taking?  Especially since, in my experience now years ago, the lifties usually greet and check folks for passes before leaving Mount Ellen.



From ME take SBX to LP. Hop on North Lynx and ski to CR Connection. Take CR chair up and take Bailout over to HG. Essentially you can ski all the upper mountain lifts without ever going back to the base lifts. And at the end of the day ski to the bottom and take the shuttle back to ME instead of SBX. If they weren't worried about the risk, they wouldn't be scanning tickets on the ME side of SBX today. I'm a little confused about your last statement though as checking passes on the ME side is I thought what we were talking about 8)


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2017)

cdskier said:


> From ME take SBX to LP. Hop on North Lynx and ski to CR Connection. Take CR chair up and take Bailout over to HG. Essentially you can ski all the upper mountain lifts without ever going back to the base lifts. And at the end of the day ski to the bottom and take the shuttle back to ME instead of SBX. If they weren't worried about the risk, they wouldn't be scanning tickets on the ME side of SBX today. I'm a little confused about your last statement though as checking passes on the ME side is I thought what we were talking about 8)



Yes, I was talking about checking passes before leaving ME.  I guess what I meant was going forward just have a liftie look and verify the passes visually instead of using RFID.  

And yes, one could get to Heaven's Gate.  Didn't think about the free shuttle.  Good point.  Sounds like you've thought this out.


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## cdskier (Jul 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, I was talking about checking passes before leaving ME.  I guess what I meant was going forward just have a liftie look and verify the passes visually instead of using RFID.
> 
> And yes, one could get to Heaven's Gate.  Didn't think about the free shuttle.  Good point.  Sounds like you've thought this out.



I imagine visually all the passes and tickets will look the same. For tickets they already said you'll be able to reload them online as long as you keep the ticket when you buy one in person. Plus since they are RFID, people may not even have them visible as they can keep them in a pocket.

As for thinking it out...wasn't too hard  No benefit for me personally though as I'm a regular full passholder.


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## Cat in January (Jul 7, 2017)

*Black Mountain of Maine*

More pipe is being laid for increased snow making coverage.

Famous Glades of the Angry Beavers could double in size!!!

Hike to open runs have been destumped and graded.

Lodge has new paint, carpet and dance floor.

Last Run Pub upstairs is expanding its floor space.  If you go to Black you need to stop by the pub.  

Tickets remain $20 on Friday and $37 on weekends.


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## Jully (Jul 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, I was talking about checking passes before leaving ME.  I guess what I meant was going forward just have a liftie look and verify the passes visually instead of using RFID.
> 
> And yes, one could get to Heaven's Gate.  Didn't think about the free shuttle.  Good point.  Sounds like you've thought this out.



All the RFID places I've ever been to had you keep the pass in your pocket. They advertised that as one of the major "perks" of the system. Only at one RFID mountain did the passes look different and have your picture on them.


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## Jully (Jul 7, 2017)

Cat in January said:


> *Black Mountain of Maine*
> 
> More pipe is being laid for increased snow making coverage.
> 
> ...



Exciting! Will definitely look to get up there on a Friday or Sunday this year.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2017)

So who is running Black Mountain?  Is it a local non-profit after the foundation left?


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## thebigo (Jul 7, 2017)

Jully said:


> All the RFID places I've ever been to had you keep the pass in your pocket. They advertised that as one of the major "perks" of the system.



Always thought this was one of the limitations of RFID. Keeping the pass in your pocket invites pass sharing. I reality I doubt many people are busted for sharing a pass but being forced to show your pass with a picture is a deterrent.


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## slatham (Jul 7, 2017)

thebigo said:


> Always thought this was one of the limitations of RFID. Keeping the pass in your pocket invites pass sharing. I reality I doubt many people are busted for sharing a pass but being forced to show your pass with a picture is a deterrent.



Wow, never thought of that, and it obviously applies to any pass - day or season. Of course the downside to doing this with a season pass is that if they do occasional spot checks and you get caught that is likely the end of your pass. 

Question - do they get any output readings when a person goes through the gate? I recall at Stowe there was a guy standing at what looked like a podium and the time I had trouble he proactively came over to help. Could there be a display console, potentially with the picture of any season passes going through the gate?


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 7, 2017)

Im pretty sure you still get a picture on your pass.  Then it pops up when you go through RFID.  If they look and see that you aren't who the pass says it is, its an easy bust.


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## cdskier (Jul 7, 2017)

slatham said:


> Wow, never thought of that, and it obviously applies to any pass - day or season. Of course the downside to doing this with a season pass is that if they do occasional spot checks and you get caught that is likely the end of your pass.
> 
> Question - do they get any output readings when a person goes through the gate? I recall at Stowe there was a guy standing at what looked like a podium and the time I had trouble he proactively came over to help. Could there be a display console, potentially with the picture of any season passes going through the gate?



Depends on the exact system/options they choose, but yes, having a photo display on a screen of the person that owns the pass that just went through the gate is certainly an option.

Technically sharing a pass not only could cost the passholder losing the pass for the remainder of the season, but I believe it is also considered theft of services so they could press charges. Certainly not a risk I would ever take.


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## benski (Jul 7, 2017)

I once switched rfid tickets at snowbird. I had skied the day I landed but switched with someone who hadn't. We didn't find out till we realized the wrong persons ticket had no days left on it.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2017)

slatham said:


> Wow, never thought of that, and it obviously applies to any pass - day or season. Of course the downside to doing this with a season pass is that if they do occasional spot checks and you get caught that is likely the end of your pass.
> 
> Question - do they get any output readings when a person goes through the gate? I recall at Stowe there was a guy standing at what looked like a podium and the time I had trouble he proactively came over to help. Could there be a display console, potentially with the picture of any season passes going through the gate?



So as someone else said, for season passes they still take a picture of you (at least at Snowbird and Alta) and keep it on file.  When you go through the gate, a picture and name flash up for your respective gate on the tablet.  So they naturally say to me, "have a good day, [real name]."  Now I have had my daughter's pass in my pocket and I don't look like a 5 year old girl, so they stop you and question you.  

As to day tickets, no photo.  That makes it relatively easy to just give it to someone else.


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## machski (Jul 7, 2017)

Interesting on the day ticket.  When we skied in NZ four Summer's ago now, we got pictures taken at each mountain before getting the RFID cards for day passes.  Everyone had pictures on file and one liftie at each gate used an iPad to monitor. 

Edit:. Since the only RFID I've used was at Bachelor.  I can't remember if I had a picture taken to get their RFID card but I was on Max Pass days so I bet when the issued the card, they could have pulled my Max Pass photo over.

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## slatham (Jul 7, 2017)

machski said:


> Interesting on the day ticket.  When we skied in NZ four Summer's ago now, we got pictures taken at each mountain before getting the RFID cards for day passes.  Everyone had pictures on file and one liftie at each gate used an iPad to monitor.
> 
> Edit:. Since the only RFID I've used was at Bachelor.  I can't remember if I had a picture taken to get their RFID card but I was on Max Pass days so I bet when the issued the card, they could have pulled my Max Pass photo over.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I've only had experience at Okemo and Stowe. No picture either time, though the Stowe tickets were through a ski club. Okemo we walked up and bought. I find it hard to believe they would do pics for a day pass, but I could see them doing so for a multi day ticket.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2017)

slatham said:


> I've only had experience at Okemo and Stowe. No picture either time, though the Stowe tickets were through a ski club. Okemo we walked up and bought. I find it hard to believe they would do pics for a day pass, but I could see them doing so for a multi day ticket.



Yes, RFID day tickets I have used do not require any sort of photograph.


----------



## Cat in January (Jul 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So who is running Black Mountain?  Is it a local non-profit after the foundation left?



When the Libra Foundation divested from the mountain a 501c was developed with the mountain becoming a community mountain.  I think there may be some financial support from the town of Rumford, but do not know the ins and outs of the financials.  Essentially the mountain is owned by the board of directors for the benefit of the community (no geographic designation of community).  

No deep pockets here, just a bunch of folks who enjoy getting out and skiing.  Lots of volunteer hours and donation of material.  One example last year a landscaper brought in his crew with several large dump trucks, an excavator, stone and pavers and spent several days building an outdoor fire pit.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 7, 2017)

FYI - non profits are not owned by the board of directors. They really aren't owned by anyone ie they serve the community at large. The Board of Directors are by statute the governing body.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jul 7, 2017)

slatham said:


> Wow, never thought of that, and it obviously applies to any pass - day or season. Of course the downside to doing this with a season pass is that if they do occasional spot checks and you get caught that is likely the end of your pass.
> 
> Question - do they get any output readings when a person goes through the gate? I recall at Stowe there was a guy standing at what looked like a podium and the time I had trouble he proactively came over to help. Could there be a display console, potentially with the picture of any season passes going through the gate?



I work for a major resort with RFID.  Virtually every card is linked with a profile at the time of purchase - name, birthday, hometown and gender at a minimum.  Before you even get through the gate, that info (along with a picture for passholders) is on our tablets.  A single employee here caught over 50 offenders last season, many of whom were sharing day tickets. We have cameras trained on every gate so can go back and show the footage to you (and the sheriff.)

It's also super helpful for tracking missing children!


----------



## Cat in January (Jul 8, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> FYI - non profits are not owned by the board of directors. They really aren't owned by anyone ie they serve the community at large. The Board of Directors are by statute the governing body.



Thanks for the clarification.  Knew I had read something along the way that had me believing the other way and pretty sure it was this article that is a bit misleading on the point.  http://bangordailynews.com/2013/09/...r-of-black-mountain-ski-area-in-final-stages/


----------



## dlague (Jul 9, 2017)

Jully said:


> There are hand held RFID scanners as opposed to the gates. Vail uses these at its resorts.


And they use scanners at lifts higher up that are not hand held.  They have scanners on every lift.  It is good marketing data and the users of Epic Mix get to see their lift history and vert.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dlague (Jul 9, 2017)

thebigo said:


> Always thought this was one of the limitations of RFID. Keeping the pass in your pocket invites pass sharing. I reality I doubt many people are busted for sharing a pass but being forced to show your pass with a picture is a deterrent.


That is why Vail resorts use hand held scanners - your picture shows up on the scanner.

I know people that have shared passes where they were scanned with barcode readers and lifties did not notice or really care.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Jul 9, 2017)

Killington is once again doing some rehab/upgrades to Snowdon Triple.  New crossarms, sheave trains and haul rope this year.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 10, 2017)

dlague said:


> And they use scanners at lifts higher up that are not hand held.  They have scanners on every lift.  It is good marketing data and the users of Epic Mix get to see their lift history and vert.



The only place I saw Vail using the hand scanners was at the base lifts, presumably because that's where you're going to catch people for theft of services.



dlague said:


> I know people that have shared passes where they were scanned with barcode readers and lifties did not notice or really care.



I was shocked how overtly obvious & rampant season pass selling and even "rental" was on Craigslist.  There were many individual postings I saw, as in > 20 instances and probably many more when I was looking to buy lift tickets online.   

Most were end of year selling that went something like......

_"Meet me at Walmart in Denver or Circle K in Silverhorne, $150 for my pass, I'm male, about 6 feet tall, brown hair"_

The boldest were "rental" offers, $60 for the day, meet and return at same location, etc... some of them requested security deposits!   One of them even demanded she hold your drivers license until you returned her pass that day.  LOL.  

These people are obviously not brain surgeons, as if Vail were ever to decide to set-up a sting, they could easily catch every single one of them, so apparently it's not worth their bother.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only place I saw Vail using the hand scanners was at the base lifts, presumably because that's where you're going to catch people for theft of services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know that some ski areas (Bretton Woods for example) scan Craigslist for people selling tickets/passes and will email those people to remove the post or risk prosecution. They may even contact Craigslist and have them remove the posts as well.


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## dlague (Jul 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only place I saw Vail using the hand scanners was at the base lifts, presumably because that's where you're going to catch people for theft of services.



That is true but higher elevation lifts have RFID scanners that scan you as you pass by. but are not hand held - look like two large black boxes.

The hand helds have your picture and other relevant info.  At Breckenridge, I was asked questions, on two separate occasions, as I passed through when being scanned like my name and where I was from.  I think they spot check that way.


----------



## mikec142 (Jul 10, 2017)

slatham said:


> I've only had experience at Okemo and Stowe. No picture either time, though the Stowe tickets were through a ski club. Okemo we walked up and bought. I find it hard to believe they would do pics for a day pass, but I could see them doing so for a multi day ticket.



Just peeked thru my RFID cards...Stowe, Okemo, and Blue don't require pictures even when I've bought a multi-day ticket.  Jackson Hole and Squaw/Alpine include your picture on the card (both trips included multi-day tickets).  Really super convenient for re-buying tickets and kids buying food.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 12, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Not sure if this has been addressed in 13 pages of this thread, but the River is adding a condo just off Dream maker, which is accessed just before the North Peak Condos on the road to North Peak.
> 
> I also hear that they are adding a poma or t-bar on Monday Mourning for use by the race clubs, which will block over easy which crosses it, so they are cutting in a new "easy" way down from the Tempest lift (lift 9).
> 
> This all on top of the new spruce lift.



Is a condo really a ski area upgrade?


----------



## Jully (Jul 12, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Not sure if this has been addressed in 13 pages of this thread, but the River is adding a condo just off Dream maker, which is accessed just before the North Peak Condos on the road to North Peak.
> 
> I also hear that they are adding a poma or t-bar on Monday Mourning for use by the race clubs, which will block over easy which crosses it, so they are cutting in a new "easy" way down from the Tempest lift (lift 9).
> 
> This all on top of the new spruce lift.



Is the new easy trail and t-bar happening this year? I hadn't heard much about it of late, so I assumed it was next year.


----------



## machski (Jul 12, 2017)

Jully said:


> Is the new easy trail and t-bar happening this year? I hadn't heard much about it of late, so I assumed it was next year.


Ditto, as well, I would think they would extend the race area snowmaking line uphill to the top of MM to ensure they get snow onto the T-Bar line.  I'm headed up I. A few weekends for Tough Mountain, I'll check it out.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Jul 12, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Is a condo really a ski area upgrade?


Well, given the location, to the 29 owners it could be.  But is a 2018-19 opening, not even breaking ground this year.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Jul 12, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Rumor has it that the poma and the new trail are this year. If you think about it, putting the poma will lower their trail count by one. Can't have that!!! And really, there are a good many skiers who need an easy way down from the top of the tempest lift.



Easy way down is definitely needed haha. It would severely hurt their grand summit hotel if not.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 12, 2017)

Ski Southington says new snowmkaing pipes.  

Woodbury seems to be on its last leg.  They didn't open for winter last season, and their website says they're not doing any summer activities this year, but that they'll be back open next winter


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 13, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Woodbury seems to be on its last leg.  They didn't open for winter last season, and their website says they're not doing any summer activities this year, but that they'll be back open next winter



Maybe trying to be the first open in the east over the last few years is killing them.


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## machski (Jul 21, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Rumor has it that the poma and the new trail are this year. If you think about it, putting the poma will lower their trail count by one. Can't have that!!! And really, there are a good many skiers who need an easy way down from the top of the tempest lift.


Latest Intel I have is that Gould is still moving forward on the T-Bar but a contract has yet to be signed with a lift manufacturer.  Probably pushes the project to next year, but being a surface lift, could still conceivably happen this year if a contract is signed in the next several weeks.

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## slatham (Jul 21, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe trying to be the first open in the east over the last few years is killing them.



No, sadly from what I understand the drought last year prevented them from making snow and opening.


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## ss20 (Jul 24, 2017)

Jiminy Peak- new 4.5 million gallon snowmaking reservoir.  

Some random guy on the FB page claims it's "Basically a couple of extra days of continuous water pumping ability given the IMPRESSIVE pumping capability of the snowmaking system"...but who knows how much they really know about snowmaking... :wink:


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 24, 2017)

That is a fairly small pond. Less than 24 hrs assuming status quo from the last I checked in with my contacts there re: pump capacity.


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## drjeff (Jul 25, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Jiminy Peak- new 4.5 million gallon snowmaking reservoir.
> 
> Some random guy on the FB page claims it's "Basically a couple of extra days of continuous water pumping ability given the IMPRESSIVE pumping capability of the snowmaking system"...but who knows how much they really know about snowmaking... :wink:



:beer:


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2017)

This is kind of interesting.  I had no idea that the state owned the base lodge at Smuggler's Notch.   Hopefully the ownership transfer goes through and Smuggs can improve that facility.  There are some older ski lodges I wish to see preserved in time.  Smuggs would not be one of them.  Nice views from the windows, but other than that, meh.  Pretty small for the crowds they get on the weekends.  

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_rep...cle_a927e460-72f2-11e7-b77f-ff75f156fe84.html


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## spiderpig (Aug 20, 2017)

Pictures show up on the tablets they hold at the lifts at Okemo. There are cameras set up for when you pass through the gate.



dlague said:


> That is why Vail resorts use hand held scanners - your picture shows up on the scanner.
> 
> I know people that have shared passes where they were scanned with barcode readers and lifties did not notice or really care.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Aug 28, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Ah yes, this reminds me, I saw on the web that the River is adding snowmaking somewhere, thougth they did not reveal where. They already cover 98% of the mountain....


That would be the new Bear something trail between Cascades and Wildfire likely.  I hear the trail is mostly cut, waiting on de stumping and smoothing.  Pipe has already been run.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Aug 28, 2017)

machski said:


> That would be the new Bear something trail between Cascades and Wildfire likely.  I hear the trail is mostly cut, waiting on de stumping and smoothing.  Pipe has already been run.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Wow that was quick! I did not expect that to be available this season.


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## machski (Sep 1, 2017)

Jully said:


> Wow that was quick! I did not expect that to be available this season.


Nor did I.  No T-Bar yet as far as I can tell.  Tower tubes and crossarms/lift frames staged in overflow lot by Snowcap for Spruce Triple, waiting to be flown.

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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2017)

Seems like T-Bars are all the rage.  Back to the future I guess.  

2016:  New Mittersill T-Bar
2017:  New Burke T-Bar
2018 (?):  Sunday River


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## mbedle (Sep 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Seems like T-Bars are all the rage.  Back to the future I guess.
> 
> 2016:  New Mittersill T-Bar
> 2017:  New Burke T-Bar
> 2018 (?):  Sunday River



I remember reading somewhere that the increase capacity of the modern t-bars are partly the reason for their return. Also, they are not as influenced by winds. Add to the list Waterville Valley, they are replacing the upper lift with a t-bar. Actually, it might have been an article about Waterville Valley and their expansion work.


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## Smellytele (Sep 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Seems like T-Bars are all the rage.  Back to the future I guess.
> 
> 2016:  New Mittersill T-Bar
> 2017:  New Burke T-Bar
> 2018 (?):  Sunday River



Mostly for racers


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## machski (Sep 2, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> The word on the T-bar and new trail at the River, as best as I can recall, is that the T-bar was going to serve the race arena, and in doing so would block Over easy, which would be closed off. The River simply didn't want to lose a trail in the trail count, and an easy way needed to be provided for the those coming up the White Cap Quad (Tempest) from the condos.


More important to the mountain is the easy link for the grand summit.

Waterville's T-Bar is proposed, they need Forrest service approval as they are proposing a new alignment off to Lookers right of the upper trails and a top termination point within 40 feet of the AT.

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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2017)

machski said:


> More important to the mountain is the easy link for the grand summit.
> 
> Waterville's T-Bar is proposed, they need Forrest service approval as they are proposing a new alignment off to Lookers right of the upper trails and a top termination point within 40 feet of the AT.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app





thetrailboss said:


> Seems like T-Bars are all the rage.  Back to the future I guess.
> 
> 2016:  New Mittersill T-Bar
> 2017:  New Burke T-Bar
> 2018 (?):  Sunday River



2017 Whaleback


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 2, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Mostly for racers



If it helps shorten the chairlift line...


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## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Mostly for racers



agreed

Bretton Woods install 5 or so years ago would be one that isn't geared towards racers.  I haven't skied the terrain it services.  My experience with BW is limited to early and late season.  I imagine the terrain that T-Bar services is pretty tame, however the concept is more in line with what I want to see surface lifts installed for in New England.  New natural snow terrain at the outer fringes of a ski area.  One in Bracket Basin at Sugarloaf would be amazing.  I'm thinking a simple line down low that would bring you up to a traverse back to King Pine.  That's the only thing that sucks about Bracket.  Tracking left back to King Pine is always on your mind.  Having a T-Bar down low so you can continue straight down the fall line or venture skiers right without worry would really make that experience shine.


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 6, 2017)

Belleayre says the new gondola will be on line Dec. 2017...


----------



## gnardawg (Sep 7, 2017)

Mt. Stickney terrain is not tame. While the vertical is very big in the area the tree skiing is very good, some what steep, tight lines. If the TBar is open at BW then I will stay there all day. Additionally the same can be said for the Rosebrook Glade area however to access it it's pretty annoying have to lap back down the main lifts. 



deadheadskier said:


> agreed
> 
> Bretton Woods install 5 or so years ago would be one that isn't geared towards racers.  I haven't skied the terrain it services.  My experience with BW is limited to early and late season.  I imagine the terrain that T-Bar services is pretty tame, however the concept is more in line with what I want to see surface lifts installed for in New England.  New natural snow terrain at the outer fringes of a ski area.  One in Bracket Basin at Sugarloaf would be amazing.  I'm thinking a simple line down low that would bring you up to a traverse back to King Pine.  That's the only thing that sucks about Bracket.  Tracking left back to King Pine is always on your mind.  Having a T-Bar down low so you can continue straight down the fall line or venture skiers right without worry would really make that experience shine.


----------



## xwhaler (Sep 7, 2017)

gnardawg said:


> Mt. Stickney terrain is not tame. While the vertical is very big in the area the tree skiing is very good, some what steep, tight lines. If the TBar is open at BW then I will stay there all day. Additionally the same can be said for the Rosebrook Glade area however to access it it's pretty annoying have to lap back down the main lifts.


I need to make it there sometime on a powder day to hit the t bar woods. Heard nothing but great things

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## slatham (Sep 10, 2017)

Saw a pic on Plattekill FB page of new snowmaking pipe being installed on Shredded Mozzarella.


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## Vaughn (Sep 18, 2017)

*Tenney?*

I haven't seen any news from or about Tenney. I believe their crook former partner is out of the picture - anyone know if any progress is being made up there?


----------



## Glenn (Sep 19, 2017)

Long John widening at Mt. Snow is ahead of schedule: http://www.reformer.com/stories/long-john-gets-wider,519631


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## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2017)

Just what Mt Snow needs  - wider trails. I know it is a beginner trail


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## Newpylong (Sep 19, 2017)

It is exactly what they need, that trail is a death trap. Only green off top really.


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## Mapnut (Sep 19, 2017)

West Mountain, NY is widening and restoring a seldom-open expert trail, The Cure. Lots of photos on Facebook.


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## mbedle (Sep 19, 2017)

As a health & safety officer, the boulder pic makes my hands sweat!!!


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 19, 2017)

Pats Peak is installing a new chair andthe towers are up.


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## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> It is exactly what they need, that trail is a death trap. Only green off top really.



Well some of their blues could be greens


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## Newpylong (Sep 19, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Well some of their blues could be greens



Trail ratings are relative. There is a huge step up between Long John and the blues off the summit on the front.

Also, it isn't just a beginner trail - it is the main conduit off the top over to Ridge, the Sundance trails, and Carinthia.

I think the mountain knows their needs best.


----------



## Glenn (Sep 19, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> It is exactly what they need, that trail is a death trap. Only green off top really.



On a holiday weekend, more dangerous than skiing down Ripcord backwards. :lol:


----------



## Mapnut (Sep 19, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> Trail ratings are relative. There is a huge step up between Long John and the blues off the summit on the front.
> 
> Also, it isn't just a beginner trail - it is the main conduit off the top over to Ridge, the Sundance trails, and Carinthia.
> 
> I think the mountain knows their needs best.



Or, as an even better way to access Ridge, the Sundance trails and Carinthia,they could run the Sundance chair more often.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2017)

Maybe one of the coolest videos I've ever seen of work on a beginner trail in my life!  Mount Snow working on the widening of Long John!  Fun to watch with the sound turned up! ;-)

[video=youtube;UKLWnui5FGs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=UKLWnui5FGs[/video]


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## Glenn (Sep 21, 2017)

That's going to make such a difference on that trail.


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## machski (Sep 21, 2017)

Waterville's High Country T-Bar was approved and they are going to attempt to install for this season.

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## RISkier (Sep 25, 2017)

Glenn said:


> On a holiday weekend, more dangerous than skiing down Ripcord backwards. :lol:



Yep, it has that optimal mix of true beginners, Park riders bombing over to Corinthia, and other folks just using it to access other terrain. Really a bad mix on a busy day. It seems there are some other trails they could at least mark blue/green that might spread things out a bit. I feel bad for beginners there.


----------



## Vaughn (Sep 30, 2017)

*Tenney*

To answer my own question, per their Facebook Tenney will be opening this year. Never been but always nice to see a mid-tier mountain make it, hope they pull it off.


----------



## Jully (Oct 1, 2017)

Vaughn said:


> To answer my own question, per their Facebook Tenney will be opening this year. Never been but always nice to see a mid-tier mountain make it, hope they pull it off.



Exciting indeed! Did they announce ticket prices or season passes?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 1, 2017)

Jully said:


> Exciting indeed! Did they announce ticket prices or season passes?



They said on a FB post that possibly 10-15 days...


----------



## Jully (Oct 1, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They said on a FB post that possibly 10-15 days...



Well then. Still exciting even if a very soft open.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 2, 2017)

Was up at Jay this weekend and noticed a few improvements going on:

They are in the process of taking the communication lines for the Flyer  off the towers and putting them underground to make the Flyer more  reliable. This is a significant project since it requires burying a  conduit the entire length of the flyer.

The lower bullwhell is missing off the Jet. Presumably to have the main bearing replaced.

The have added snow-making to the trail that cuts across from lower  angles wiggle to the jet. This should eliminate the mud walk for late  season skiing.

I guess the receiver is trying to get Jay in top shape for a sale.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 2, 2017)

What is Stowe currently working on between the Gondola base and the Midway Lodge? I saw construction going on this weekend when I was up there zip-lining, but I'm not that in tune with what is going on at Stowe and couldn't find any improvements mentioned in this thread.


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Oct 2, 2017)

cdskier said:


> What is Stowe currently working on between the Gondola base and the Midway Lodge? I saw construction going on this weekend when I was up there zip-lining, but I'm not that in tune with what is going on at Stowe and couldn't find any improvements mentioned in this thread.



Parking lot.

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe-mou...age_26b2d67a-a484-11e7-a04f-530e3e3cfb21.html



It is going to make getting to the gondi on skis a bit more of a pain in the butt than it already is. This is the lot every early bird will be racing for. Just a few steps from car to both the lift and the Midway Bar & BBQ.


----------



## slatham (Oct 2, 2017)

From this picture is looks like they ruined the ski back to the Gondi route? I trust they didn't. This will certainly be the most sought after lot, unless you love the old Mansfield base lodge.....


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Oct 2, 2017)

So, what do you think the chances are that Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE ticker: MTN)  is going to make that a pay, or even valet only parking lot?  Maybe start charging top dollar for the front row "beach property" like they do at A Basin?   Maybe they're going to go for the spring time closing record and try to beat Killington by using the new "beachfront" property as the prime parking and party spot.  If they do the snowmaking right they can run that Gondi all the way till August!.!.!



 Anybody taking bets?


----------



## Jully (Oct 2, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> So, what do you think the chances are that Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE ticker: MTN)  is going to make that a pay, or even valet only parking lot?  Maybe start charging top dollar for the front row "beach property" like they do at A Basin?   Maybe they're going to go for the spring time closing record and try to beat Killington by using the new "beachfront" property as the prime parking and party spot.  If they do the snowmaking right they can run that Gondi all the way till August!.!.!
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody taking bets?



I'd be shocked if Vail took Stowe any deeper into the season than their current closing date or changes the actual ski operations much at all. 

I think Vail already said parking will not be paid this year, but that lot makes perfect sense to be the first of many (I'm sure) paid lots at Stowe.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 2, 2017)

No way the Stowe season expands.  No.  Way.  They'll probably keep things status quo for a few years then once they realize how expensive it is to run an Eastern resort they'll cut back operations...what do they have to lose?  Oh the skiing at Stowe isn't as good as you want it to be?  Go west with your Epic pass!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2017)

ss20 said:


> No way the Stowe season expands.  No.  Way.  They'll probably keep things status quo for a few years then once they realize how expensive it is to run an Eastern resort they'll cut back operations...what do they have to lose?  Oh the skiing at Stowe isn't as good as you want it to be?  Go west with your Epic pass!!!



Late season is not a part of the Vail MO.  PCMR has lost 2-3 weeks of their season since going to Vail.  They pretty much open right before Thanksgiving and close in early April for all their resorts from what I have seen.  Stowe was not much different, unless they changed a lot since I moved out west in 2011.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Late season is not a part of the Vail MO.  PCMR has lost 2-3 weeks of their season since going to Vail.  They pretty much open right before Thanksgiving and close in early April for all their resorts from what I have seen.  Stowe was not much different, unless they changed a lot since I moved out west in 2011.



They've gone to the 3rd weekend of April in recent years.  Not a "late season" player but certainly a longer season than most.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2017)

Third weekend in April has basically been the standard at Stowe since I moved there in 95


----------



## snoseek (Oct 2, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> So, what do you think the chances are that Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE ticker: MTN)  is going to make that a pay, or even valet only parking lot?  Maybe start charging top dollar for the front row "beach property" like they do at A Basin?   Maybe they're going to go for the spring time closing record and try to beat Killington by using the new "beachfront" property as the prime parking and party spot.  If they do the snowmaking right they can run that Gondi all the way till August!.!.!
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody taking bets?




Vail does not own or operate A-Basin....


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## Bosco DaSkia (Oct 3, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Vail does not own or operate A-Basin....




Never said they did, so just cool yer jets there hotrod..... You might also notice that I never said that they own Killington either. 

Perhaps your not familiar with the concept of compare and contrast thesis statement. Any compare and contrast essay  compares two things, ideas, or people for the purpose of arriving at a conclusion. The thesis statement for this type of essay is the sentence in the introduction that relays to readers the results of the comparison and what to expect from the essay that follows.

And now you know, esé -


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Parking lot.
> 
> http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe-mou...age_26b2d67a-a484-11e7-a04f-530e3e3cfb21.html
> 
> ...



Well the three lots that are already there are already prime real estate for early bird folks and tailgating, so that won't be much of a change.  I agree, getting to the Gondi from midway will be a bit more of a pain.  It appears that it will be quite the tight squeeze on skiers right of the trail for folks to get by and stack up for the Gondola line. 

Overall the parking lot isn't ideal, but they had to add spaces somewhere and my understanding is this lot won't be near enough to solve their issues on busy weekends.  The resort will still have hundreds of fewer parking spots than back in the day of the public lots over at Spruce.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 3, 2017)

The easy fix to the parking issue at Stowe is to add a second tier to the Mansfield lot.  The lot is already mostly paved, they could even do it in increments.  Permitting should be rather easy because you wouldn't be adding any impervious surface.  

Yeah parking on the lower level would suck for tailgating, but from a logistical and cost perspective its really the only way for them to expand parking. 

I see this as completely inevitable at Stowe.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2017)

That does make sense.  I just see a lot of local opposition to a "parking garage."   People don't view parking garages as something that fits with the "quaint Vermont" image.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 3, 2017)

yeah  I know...  But It could be built in a manner that doesn't make it look much different than it does now.  If they wanted to they could lower the grad of the lot (bottom level of the "garage" on the lodge side of things and make the top deck around the same elevation as the ticket window.  

I'm sure people in Town will loose their shit, but there are already parking issues, and it is not going to get any better with the epic pass.


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## mbedle (Oct 3, 2017)

Actually, with the retaining wall and guard rails around the lower part of the new lots, getting from all of these lots to the gondola is going to be interesting. From Midway to the gondola is going to require walking up hill through the flag poles, to get around the new lots.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 3, 2017)

It looks to me as though you will go through where the old park was.  They haven't had a park there in a few years anyways.  If you are carrying enough speed, and most do this shouldn't be a problem.


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## Glenn (Oct 3, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Sunday River, setting towers.
> https://www.facebook.com/sundayriver/videos/10154948770647876/?comment_tracking={"tn":"O"}



That's impressive!


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## snoseek (Oct 3, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Never said they did, so just cool yer jets there hotrod..... You might also notice that I never said that they own Killington either.
> 
> Perhaps your not familiar with the concept of compare and contrast thesis statement. Any compare and contrast essay  compares two things, ideas, or people for the purpose of arriving at a conclusion. The thesis statement for this type of essay is the sentence in the introduction that relays to readers the results of the comparison and what to expect from the essay that follows.
> 
> And now you know, esé -



I read "they" in your post as Vail and not Abasin.

Thanks for the English lesson though


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## slatham (Oct 3, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The easy fix to the parking issue at Stowe is to add a second tier to the Mansfield lot.  The lot is already mostly paved, they could even do it in increments.  Permitting should be rather easy because you wouldn't be adding any impervious surface.
> 
> Yeah parking on the lower level would suck for tailgating, but from a logistical and cost perspective its really the only way for them to expand parking.
> 
> I see this as completely inevitable at Stowe.



This exactly what I told my Stowe friends as we were tailgating this past March and the discussion turned to the parking issue. The nice side benefit would be a connection from the top floor to the Quad with a walkway. No more hiking the hill. In my mind better than clearing a new lot by the Gondi, and another one down by Toll House!

I agree that some will say a parking garage is not quaint Stowe or VT. I would counter that neither is the "one-percenter" monstrosity across the street (ok, its actually not THAT bad to look at but it certainly is not VT quaint....)


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## mbedle (Oct 3, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It looks to me as though you will go through where the old park was.  They haven't had a park there in a few years anyways.  If you are carrying enough speed, and most do this shouldn't be a problem.



You are right about that. On a powder day it can be difficult to get up that slope to head down where the park use to be. On a busy day, if you get a lot of people in that area between the plastic wall and the woods, if gets even harder. 

One thing I found interesting is that Spruce Peak only had 250 spaces that were lost during the development (pretty sure that number doesn't include all of the parking that took place along the road). At least they are getting close to what they lost back in 2014.


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## mbedle (Oct 3, 2017)

Just read an article with a couple of things Vail may do to improve the parking issue: 1) increase staff to help people park more efficiently (good idea), 2) increase offsite snow disposal to limit the loss of parking after big storms (good idea), 3) rope off sections close to the lifts and limit parking to cars with 3 or more passenger (REALLY BAD IDEA....). 

An above grade parking lot would never be approved. Don't think it would pass the visual nuisance regs, plus the historical society would have issue with encroaching on the Mansfield Lodge.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Sunday River Spruce tower install
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/sundayrive...507138101232282¬if_t=notify_me_page&ref=notif



I think that helicopter moved from Pats Peak to Sunday River and is now at Burke to do the new T-Bar project.


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## machski (Oct 4, 2017)

This helicopter operator is out of Pembroke, NH.  Pretty cool, and they are being kept busy!!  Wonder if Waterville is on their list a bit later.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2017)

Here are some pictures of the progress of the upgrades at Mt Ellen from this past Friday.

New snowmaking pipe on Which Way:


New Sunny D Quad progress:


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## p_levert (Oct 5, 2017)

That has to be the steepest beginner run in the universe.


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## benski (Oct 5, 2017)

p_levert said:


> That has to be the steepest beginner run in the universe.



Its used as a park.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 6, 2017)

Also, the pic makes it look steeper than it is.  It's pretty mellow - almost too flat for a good park IMO.


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## machski (Oct 10, 2017)

machski said:


> Waterville's High Country T-Bar was approved and they are going to attempt to install for this season.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Just learned Waterville is actually getting High Country Double inspected for this season and plan to run the Double up and until the new T-Bar is in and good to go.  Interesting, thought they had had it with that double chair last season.  The double is coming down once the T-Bar is up and running though.


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## Jully (Oct 10, 2017)

machski said:


> Just learned Waterville is actually getting High Country Double inspected for this season and plan to run the Double up and until the new T-Bar is in and good to go.  Interesting, thought they had had it with that double chair last season.  The double is coming down once the T-Bar is up and running though.



It would really hurt their early season effort if they didn't have something up there, so that makes sense!


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## skibum636 (Nov 3, 2017)

Song is replacing the the thunderbird tbar  with a riblet triple chair. Looking forward to lapping Jupiter and ottos.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 3, 2017)

skibum636 said:


> Song is replacing the the thunderbird tbar  with a riblet triple chair. Looking forward to lapping Jupiter and ottos.



 That sounds great and all that,   But seriously, how often do you think that cheap bastard is actually going to run that lift?  Remember this is a guy that put a padlock on the fireplace to control the amount of wood that's being burned. 

  I'd be willing to bet that he still only  going to run one lift at a time. No matter how many folks are there.:roll:


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## skibum636 (Nov 3, 2017)

That cheap bastard makes more snow than anyone in central ny


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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2017)

In addition to the West Lake snowmaking project, the widening of Long John, the start of the Carinthia Base Lodge, the additon of 200 HKD snowguns, also add 3 new pisten bully's (a 400 park pro, a 600 and a 600 winch cat) to Mount Snow's summer upgrades!


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## Brad J (Nov 4, 2017)

drjeff said:


> In addition to the West Lake snowmaking project, the widening of Long John, the start of the Carinthia Base Lodge, the additon of 200 HKD snowguns, also add 3 new pisten bully's (a 400 park pro, a 600 and a 600 winch cat) to Mount Snow's summer upgrades!



Attitash, will get a new door closer that will smack you in the butt on your way out the door !!!


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## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 6, 2017)

skibum636 said:


> That cheap bastard makes more snow than anyone in central ny



  that's a good one! You got me laughing there. 

So I guess your main competition in that scenario is Toggenburg and the Four Seasons? Are you saying he makes more snow than both Toggenburg and the Four Seasons? Well, you just may be right about that. But seriously, is that really the benchmark you want to be measured by? Just saying......:blink::blink::blink:


 When he stops running his air and water guns with only the water hooked up, I just might start thinking that he's getting over his cheap ass ways. Until then, I will still think he's a cheap bastard.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

Not technically summer...but apparently MRG just obtained a couple more fan guns (bringing their arsenal up to 5...a 40% increase)


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## Newpylong (Nov 14, 2017)

They still only have enough water to effectively run 3.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> They still only have enough water to effectively run 3.



I was wondering about that...but just reporting what MRG reported.


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## drjeff (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm curious who MRG bought those off of???? The video on their FB page today of them unloading what looked like a couple of sled mounted SMI Polecat kid's off of the flatbed trailer sure didn't look like a brand new from the factory in Michigan, SMI delivery....

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## IceEidolon (Nov 16, 2017)

There's no way those are PoleKittens. I'm 98% sure the nearer one is a Super Polecat (based on the number of nozzles and the compressor) and the farther one probably is too.

If MRG has 200 GPM, instead of max flow around 15 WB it's probably closer to 20 wb, with a 60% boost in startup flow.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## MountSnow (Nov 17, 2017)

Glenn said:


> Mount Snow is widening Long John. They've got some good pics on the blog section of their website.


But that's not all. We also were busy doing: 

$30 million in snowmaking upgrades while building the most powerful snowmaking system in the Northeast.

Increasing water storage 6x thanks to our new snowmaking “pond” West Lake.

Increasing in pumping capacity 2x for snowmaking, allowing us to open more trails faster than ever before.

Purchased 220 brand new snowguns from HKD, all featuring low-e technology, which brough our fleet of 948 guns to 100% low-e technology, allowing us to make more snow while using less power.

Purchased three new snowcats from PistenBully.

Invested $22 million in building our new 42,000 sq/ft lodge at the Carinthia Base Area, which will open for the 2018/19 season.

Invested and completed 100 other capital improvements this summer to our facilities on and off the mountain to make for a better guest experience.

It's been a busy summer, but now it's time to ski. 

More details at https://www.mountsnow.com/our-media/blog/mount-snow/updates-and-upgrades/


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