# Bindings and knee injuries



## Edd (Mar 28, 2011)

This is obviously on my mind alot as I injured myself this year.  I was on Marker Barons that I got this season.  I skied those about 20 days.  Several crashes.  Two of them were significant and the last one injured me.  The bindings did not let go one time.  The DIN on all of my skis is set at 7 and it's always worked for me.  Obviously I will have them checked out before skiing on them again.

It could be that all of my spills weren't the type the binding was designed to release for but....has anyone dialed down the DIN as a result of injury?  I understand that a balance needs to be struck between pre-release and non-release.  I'm 5'11", 178 lbs.  I always say Type 2.  I pretty much ski the whole hill at moderate speeds. 

Also, does anyone have experience with Kneebindings?  There's some debate on the web concerning their effectiveness and I suppose that can be tough to prove.

I'm thinking hard about next season and how to avoid this.  I even consider hanging up the boards but, knowing me, I'm almost certain to be out there again.


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 28, 2011)

As far as I am concerned the bindings that you hurt yourself in is one of the best bindings I have skied in(I have Dukes, but same thing).  The Royal Family(Griffon/Jester, Baron/Duke) are the most smoothest, best releasing bindings I have used.  When the heal needs to release it is a very fluid motion, not a sudden jerk.  Same with the toes.
I used to love the Axial2's from Rossi, as they were a great releasing binding as well(always almost dead center on the release specs, and a smooth release).  I tore my ACL while skiing in my Rossi's when they did not release in a crash.  I tested the bindings after the crash, and even with the bindings set 1 DIN higher than the chart called for, they were still in range for my proper #'s.  The only reason I went away from them for the Markers is I prefere the way the Markers ski.


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## andyzee (Mar 28, 2011)

Don't go by the DIN settings on the ski, they could be deceptive, or so I've been told. Springs to get weak. I've taken my skis and my wife's skis to Northern Ski Works in Killington. They have a nice machine that tests bindings in all directions for release. Using this they are able to determine true DIN setting. As per them, ours were off. Maybe they BS me, maybe not, not sure, but sure makes sense.


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## 〽❄❅ (Mar 28, 2011)

It's my understanding the Marker Royal family bindings lack elasticity. 

The Knee binding is interesting, studied the videos and mechanics and can't say i fall in the demonstrated way the binding is effective against ACL injuries. Perhaps if i were a avid bump skier, which i'm not, and yes i know about the not till it happens scenario. Maybe someone post info to change my mind.

I'm sticking with Look Pivot types which are tops wrt elasticity. But i'm biased having been on Look Pivot types since way back when my Look N77 was featured in Ski magazine buyers guide. 

O.T., early into the season i was excited about putting together a one quiver resort/slackcountry/AT setup with Marker Tour's. A unrelated medical condition interfered with most of my downhill ski season and i knew i wouldn't be able to travel far for backcountry so that never happened. 
In the interim having read more about the Markers shortfalls convinced me to just update my alpine gear for now and work on putting together AT gear when i'll actually be able to use it as intended. Besides, who know's what will become of the G3 onyx or Trab TR2 which both may have potential for some slackcountry freeride/AT duty, or what else is on the horizon.


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## 57stevey (Mar 29, 2011)

Edd said:


> I understand that a balance needs to be struck between pre-release and non-release.  I'm 5'11", 178 lbs.  I always say Type 2.  I pretty much ski the whole hill at moderate speeds.



Assuming you are not racing or skiing in no fall zones, is pre-release really a concern for your profile? I never go higher than the chart and can't remember having any issues.


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## Edd (Mar 29, 2011)

SUV Steve said:


> Assuming you are not racing or skiing in no fall zones, is pre-release really a concern for your profile? I never go higher than the chart and can't remember having any issues.



I'm not sure if it would be a concern.  I mentioned that I ski the whole hill by which I mean I spend a good deal of time on ungroomed terrain.  Trees and bumps are areas in which I'd think pre-release would be dicey.  However, if I felt that I could bring the DIN down to 6 I'd do it.  I've known a few skiers who I think have their DIN way high considering their profile; it seems like asking for trouble.


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## 57stevey (Mar 29, 2011)

Assuming a boot sole length in the 311-330mm, I come up with DIN=6 on my chart. I don't ski any serious bumps or trees, but if that ramps you up to a level III then 7 would be about right. I just personally have never experienced a "pre-release" that I could say with absolute certainty wouldn't have hurt me if the ski hadn't come off... well, except for a couple of times standing still on Atomics if I got any snow on them


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## 〽❄❅ (Mar 29, 2011)

agree with post #3
FWIW, posted the following DIN chart link:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...g-keep-the-knees-I-have?p=1580612#post1580612


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## legalskier (Apr 1, 2011)

Edd said:


> Also, does anyone have experience with Kneebindings?  There's some debate on the web concerning their effectiveness and I suppose that can be tough to prove. I'm thinking hard about next season and how to avoid this.



After a friend blew her knee out in a twisting backwards fall a couple of weeks ago, the same thoughts crossed my mind and I started looking into it. There isn't much info out there. This discussion, however, is pretty good:
http://www.theskidiva.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6628
More here:
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/92348/kneebinding-update


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## powers (Apr 1, 2011)

*Ski bindings...*

...don't prevent all knee injuries. The forces required to damage a knee can not be typically reduced by traditional bindings. Most of the time it is not a nice, clean, rotation about the 30mm heel profile. Many injuries are from being locked in a edge during a backward twisting fall. The load applied is more lateral to the heel. Line tried to work around this with their bindings. The heel pieces had rollers on both sides of the heel, like older Tyrolia. They toes and heels were linked internally so you couldn't blow out of them sideways when banging thru the bumps or carving hard. 
  I've had two ACL's on the same knee, both injuries due to this type of fall. Both times the bindings tested within inspection range for my skier code. I've also tested bindings post accident for other people. I don't think I have seen one where the binding was faulty. Most binding failures have been heels exploding or springs fatiguing. I learned to test bindings using Vermont Calibrator system, a torque wrench modified for ski bindings. You really got to appreciate the different bindings by "feel". After a while you knew if a binding was on its way out because it didn't feel right even if it tested within range. Sometimes a couple more extra pulls at a higher setting would cause them to fail, i.e. explode across the shop. 
  Another thing, I had Salomon X-Wing Furies for a season. Awsome carving skis but the tails were too "wide" for my taste/style. They tended to lock into turns I couldn't get out of and stained my knee. I switched to Fischers and had no problems. The Salomon's had a boot center closer to the narrowest part of the radius. The Fischers are set back. Same radii, different boot placement.


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## gladerider (Apr 1, 2011)

Edd said:


> I even consider hanging up the boards but, knowing me, I'm almost certain to be out there again.



i skiied for almost 20 years and i survived through many knee injuries, but none significant to date, but each season my knees begged me for a relief. one of the key reasons for me switching to snowboarding was my knees. this is my 5th snowboarding season and i almost forgot about my knees complaining. the point, don't hang up everything. look for something else, like snowboarding


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## Edd (Apr 1, 2011)

gladerider said:


> i skiied for almost 20 years and i survived through many knee injuries, but none significant to date, but each season my knees begged me for a relief. one of the key reasons for me switching to snowboarding was my knees. this is my 5th snowboarding season and i almost forgot about my knees complaining. the point, don't hang up everything. look for something else, like snowboarding



I have a good friend that switched for the same reason.  A few years back I tried riding and broke my wrist on day 1.  Skied with a cast for a month.  It's great that you were able to save your knees with riding, though.


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## Edd (Apr 1, 2011)

legalskier said:


> After a friend blew her knee out in a twisting backwards fall a couple of weeks ago, the same thoughts crossed my mind and I started looking into it. There isn't much info out there. This discussion, however, is pretty good:
> http://www.theskidiva.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6628
> More here:
> http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/92348/kneebinding-update



I'd seen the Diva thread but missed this one on Epic.  Yikes, that thread didn't give me a warm fuzzy about those things.


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## gladerider (Apr 4, 2011)

Edd said:


> I have a good friend that switched for the same reason.  A few years back I tried riding and broke my wrist on day 1.  Skied with a cast for a month.  It's great that you were able to save your knees with riding, though.



that sux man. have you thought about a mechanical knee brace? about a month ago i was riding at mt sno. after the last run of the day i was changing downstairs and there was a guy next to me. he said he screwed up his knee pretty badly but he did not want to waste the season, so postponed the surgery and the doctor prescribed a knee brace. he showed it to me and it was pretty heavy duty. he said he needed to be fitted for it and it was like a $1K or something like that. but he said it was solid. he said the best thing was it was covered by his insurance. if i were you, i'd ask your doctor.


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## Edd (Apr 4, 2011)

gladerider said:


> that sux man. have you thought about a mechanical knee brace?



Not planning on it but I will take a look at some kind of brace out of curiosity.  I'm 6 weeks post-op and doing well.  No reason to think I can't ski next year like plenty of other guys have on this board.  I'll just have to shake off the fear.


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## gladerider (Apr 4, 2011)

Edd said:


> Not planning on it but I will take a look at some kind of brace out of curiosity.  I'm 6 weeks post-op and doing well.  No reason to think I can't ski next year like plenty of other guys have on this board.  I'll just have to shake off the fear.



good luck dude.


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