# Killington/POWDR - how much does bad PR cost them per year in lost revenue?



## Highway Star (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that there is not an existing thread on this.  

Obviously there is a certain segment of the skiing population that likes to complain about how Killington is run.  Over the past 5 years of ownership and management by POWDR Corp of Park City UT (also owners of Park City Mt Resort), there has been a firestorm of negative feedback in response to:

- Pass price increases
- Shortening of the ski season
- Cancelling of bond/lifetime passes
- Laying off longtime employees
- Destroying/Cancelling BMMC (Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge)
- Reduced Snowmaking
- Reduced lift operations
- Removing the Devil's Fiddle Quad and South Ridge triple, not replacing them
- Closing Pico midweek
- Excessively catering to special events at the expense of normal skiers
- ETC.

In response to this, there has been a varying intensity of criticism from their customers in the form of:

- Word of mouth in the community
- Word of mouth from regular skiers to flatlanders
- Negative "vibe" on the mountain
- Posters
- T-Shirts
- Newspaper articles
- Online article comments
- Facebook postings/comments
- Forum postings
- Blog postings/comments
- Emails
- Other

It is clear from various sources (newspaper articles, traffic counter data, observed levels of business) that Killington went from an average 950k+ skier visits in the last 5 years of ASC management, to an estimated average of 700k over the last 5 years.  Just slightly more than Okemo.  Granted, their yield per visit (say, from $73 up to $95?) may have increased substantially, meaning that revenue may have gone up or down.  Operating costs seem to be down, as indicated by reduction in services, thus they may in fact be more profitable.  

Regardless, would anyone care to quantify how much bad PR costs them per year?  Threecy?


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## steamboat1 (Mar 12, 2012)

At least a six pack.


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## Nick (Mar 12, 2012)

Eighteen dollars


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 12, 2012)

Nothing.  Because all the people who bitch non-stop will just continue to keep going there.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 12, 2012)

Is this yet another anti-Killington thread by Highway Star?


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## Highway Star (Mar 12, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Nothing.  Because all the people who bitch non-stop will just continue to keep going there.



I used to spend $1500+ beyond my pass cost, then I took a POWDR in the knee.


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## boston_e (Mar 12, 2012)

I would say that I have been critical of Killington when I felt justified but also praise them when I felt it was deserved.

I do know that Killington used to get 100% of my allotted skiing dollars and that is no longer the case.

Things I was critical of include the now 8:30 start time, initial pricing on kids programs and not at least trying to make it through the 2nd full weekend in May.

I gave them props for things like eliminating the "bronze type" season passes, coming out with the express card, installing the new quad.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 12, 2012)

I want my two dollars!


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## o3jeff (Mar 12, 2012)

Maybe Killington will chime in on this thread and let us all know.


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## riverc0il (Mar 12, 2012)

I'd be willing to bet that their revenue per skier visit is likely up. Total revenue is likely down this season due to the poor season, warm temperatures, and general lack of natural snow. I bet in an average snow year, revenues will be excellent for Killington. They are making sound business decisions and their hardcore customers won't leave them because they have second home investments. They'll attract new hardcore customers that will never have known the "good ole days" and that appreciate the less crowded slopes due to business decisions that have alienated a few and price/pass increases that drove down crowding.


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## Highway Star (Mar 12, 2012)

boston_e said:


> I would say that I have been critical of Killington when I felt justified but also praise them when I felt it was deserved.
> 
> I do know that Killington used to get 100% of my allotted skiing dollars and that is no longer the case.
> 
> ...



There have been a few good things done, the primary one is the Peak Walkway (a K-zone idea), and making snow on/cutting back the brush on Devils Fiddle and Ovation (also asked for repeatedly).

The umbrella bars are nice too, but they certainly didn't go to any extraordinary efforts to save the superstar pub, if you know what I mean.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2012)

about tree fitty


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## Nick (Mar 12, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I used to spend $1500+ beyond my pass cost, then I took a POWDR in the knee.



Really, a skyrim reference :lol: wonder who else got that


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## gmcunni (Mar 12, 2012)

Nick said:


> Really, a skyrim reference :lol: wonder who else got that



not me, i thought it was a tanya harding reference.


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## rocojerry (Mar 12, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> - Closing Pico midweek



This has been a +1 in my mind for Pico.  If I can't get away from work mid-week, knowing theres a better chance of fresh tracks somewhere not earned puts it on my radar.

I'd say i'm in general in the anti-Killington, pro-Pico camp -- a minority, but thats the way I like it  more for me.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 12, 2012)

I spent $39 for tickets and about 10 bucks for lunch in to ski in October so Highway Star's constant bitching about the place isn't entirely a loss for K.


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## skiingsnow (Mar 12, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm pretty sure that there is not an existing thread on this.
> 
> Obviously there is a certain segment of the skiing population that likes to complain about how Killington is run.  Over the past 5 years of ownership and management by POWDR Corp of Park City UT (also owners of Park City Mt Resort), there has been a firestorm of negative feedback in response to:
> 
> ...



Just throwing my opinions out there. . .


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## abc (Mar 12, 2012)

rocojerry said:


> This has been a +1 in my mind for Pico.  If I can't get away from work mid-week, knowing theres a better chance of fresh tracks somewhere not earned puts it on my radar.
> 
> I'd say i'm in general in the anti-Killington, pro-Pico camp -- a minority, but thats the way I like it  more for me.


I miss skiing Pico mid-week. But I'm not complaining. I ski mostly weekend anyway. Only very occasionally take a day off if powder is anticipated. So yes, with it close during the week, I'll have to fight the weekend crowd, but really that's not so big of a crowd anyway. So it's no big lost to me.

I think it makes perfect business sense. Mid-week in K isn't quite as busy as weekends so can absorb the number. Weekend is when skier visit is up. That makes Pico more profitable == stay in business. Still, it's not too crowded even on weekends so it's my go-to place when I want to ski mid-VT (instead of K on weekend).


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## MadPadraic (Mar 13, 2012)

Does anyone know if Killington is relatively more dependent on lift ticket/pass sales than other major NE areas due to the access road and ski house culture?


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## Glenn (Mar 13, 2012)

Bandwidth cost on this site for Killington threads.....I'd say that's another $5.08.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 13, 2012)

MadPadraic said:


> Does anyone know if Killington is relatively more dependent on lift ticket/pass sales than other major NE areas due to the access road and ski house culture?



I wonder if anyone has ever done an analysis of how much revenue Killington loses by branding itself "The Beast", the access road and its Jersey Shore North reputation.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 13, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> I want my two dollars!


Great movie. +1


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## ScottySkis (Mar 13, 2012)

Not much only ski fourm people really care, my cousin who is a typical Killington skiier skis a few times in season really cares that they get snow and have best ski with in certain distance for 2 day weekend, and that is were they will always have customers.


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## Geoff (Mar 13, 2012)

MadPadraic said:


> Does anyone know if Killington is relatively more dependent on lift ticket/pass sales than other major NE areas due to the access road and ski house culture?



All drive-to ski areas have lift ticket sales as their dominant source of income.   You try to increase your yield with food & beverage, rentals, lessons, a captive ski shop, and your lodging bureau on your web site and 800 number.

The biggest difference at Killington is that the real estate development company that owns the land (H.L. Hunt Texas oil money in Eiger Fund/E2M) is totally separate from the ski operation company (John Cumming/Park City/POWDR).   All POWDR cares about is short-term operating profit.   Offering a product that will convince rich people to buy slopeside trophy homes doesn't particularly matter to them.


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## Highway Star (Mar 13, 2012)

skiingsnow said:


> Just throwing my opinions out there. . .


 
Your "provided talking points" reference the last few low budget years of ASC when they were offering a $350 blackout pass.  There was a reduction in service and the pass price reflected that, but people still complained.  POWDR has kept the same reduced services and increased the prices................*seriously?*  We were actually better off under ASC solely due to the reduced prices.


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## snowmonster (Mar 13, 2012)

I seem to recall the griping about ASC and how K people were so relieved to see them gone. Those were the days when this board had a lot of references to the phrase "eat what you kill." Now, people are looking back at the good old days of ASC. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.

For my part, I can never understand why K skiers dump on their mountain and its management on a regular basis. Unless you are tied to the mountain because you made an investment, the obvious solution is to ski some other place if you hate K so much. From what I can observe among the VT resorts, the Bush, Jay, Magic, MRG and Stowe seem to be doing right by their respective client bases. Why not go there? Arguing from a "it was much better then" perspective won't really cut it. The days of Pres Smith and skiing 'til July are over and they're probably never coming back. 

I used to ski K in the ASC days. In fact, it was the closest I had to a home mountain. When ASC broke up, I chose to ski Sunday River partly because of the positive vibe among the patrons and the fact that management seemed to listen to us. Never regretted that decision. I sometimes get the urge to ski K on my blackout days and see the old stomping grounds. But, since all I hear from patrons is how much of a dump that place is now and how it's so lousily run, I've decided to steer clear. After all, if the natives are so restless, something must be amiss. Why share in the misery?


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## oakapple (Mar 13, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> For my part, I can never understand why K skiers dump on their mountain and its management on a regular basis. Unless you are tied to the mountain because you made an investment, the obvious solution is to ski some other place if you hate K so much.


The Killington haters are caught between two conflicting positions. On the one hand, despite its flaws, it's still their best option. On the other, they see how much better it _could_ be, and in the past, _has been_.

I don't really see any contradiction there. It is entirely rational to hate what POWDR is doing, while at the same time, not hating it quite enough to take their business elsewhere.


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## ALLSKIING (Mar 13, 2012)

I spent more money at K this year then the last two years.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 13, 2012)

two observations from a non-K skier.
first, as I drive through route 4, it appears the local businesses, particularly lodging, have taken a major hit in the last few years.

second, in listening to the radio in the car on my commute, I hear Kton commercials which perplex me.  They start off with a deep somewhat intimidating voice intoning "The Beast" and then they talk about family friendly atmosphere and their kids programs.  seems to me these are competing messages.  if you're trying to attract families with little kids, don't brand yourself, the Beast.  On the other hand, consumers drawn to the beast, probably don't want a mtn full of kids/families.


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## Gilligan (Mar 13, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> two observations from a non-K skier.
> first, as I drive through route 4, it appears the local businesses, particularly lodging, have taken a major hit in the last few years.
> 
> second, in listening to the radio in the car on my commute, I hear Kton commercials which perplex me.  They start off with a deep somewhat intimidating voice intoning "The Beast" and then they talk about family friendly atmosphere and their kids programs.  seems to me these are competing messages.  if you're trying to attract families with little kids, don't brand yourself, the Beast.  On the other hand, consumers drawn to the beast, probably don't want a mtn full of kids/families.



Yes, reminds me of Nissan killing their car sales with those commercials with the creepy old guy a few years ago.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 13, 2012)

oakapple said:


> The Killington haters are caught between two conflicting positions. On the one hand, despite its flaws, it's still their best option. On the other, they see how much better it _could_ be, and in the past, _has been_.
> 
> I don't really see any contradiction there. It is entirely rational to hate what POWDR is doing, while at the same time, not hating it quite enough to take their business elsewhere.



People keep talking about Sugarbush, or Jay, or Sunday River - but those are not weekend options to anyone near NYC. And Killington still blows away the Strattons and Okemos for anyone wanting real expert terrain. 

We love Killington, we just do not like how the current owners are acting. If we did not love Killington, we would not care so much.


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## skiadikt (Mar 13, 2012)

oakapple said:


> The Killington haters are caught between two conflicting positions. On the one hand, despite its flaws, it's still their best option. On the other, they see how much better it _could_ be, and in the past, _has been_.
> 
> I don't really see any contradiction there. It is entirely rational to hate what POWDR is doing, while at the same time, not hating it quite enough to take their business elsewhere.



astute comment. for now due to our current living/real estate situation we're at k. when we retire in another year or two, we'll be free agents and can choose. of course that could mean saying good-bye to our best friends who we've been skiing with for 25 yrs. it's not an simple decision. it's easy for the knee-jerks to say take your business elsewhere ...

again i ask, tell me what other ski area (if any) has made as many negative impacting decisions to their customers and cut back services as much as powdr has at k in the last 5 yrs. the answer is none. in fact i don't hear much in the way of any cutbacks at other areas. it's certainly powdr's right to do whatever they need to max their bottom line but as long as they keep rankling long term customers, there will be bitching until they've chased us all away.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 13, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> People keep talking about Sugarbush, or Jay, or Sunday River - but those are not weekend options to anyone near NYC. And Killington still blows away the Strattons and Okemos for anyone wanting real expert terrain.
> 
> We love Killington, we just do not like how the current owners are acting. If we did not love Killington, we would not care so much.



I live near NYC and disagree about sugarbush.  the additional 45 minutes in the car is no biggie for us.  But I can see where you're coming from.  That being said, anything south of killington is a non-starter for me.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 13, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> two observations from a non-K skier.
> first, as I drive through route 4, it appears the local businesses, particularly lodging, have taken a major hit in the last few years.



I think that has alot to do with the economy.  IMO, SundayRiver has done great since ASC, as far as services and value etc...the place has so much more vibe and pride (or something) since Boyne took over.  BUT...businesses are hurting all around SR...and based on the  "Internet forum whining" meter, SR and K are opposites but local SR businesses are still hurting.


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## AdironRider (Mar 13, 2012)

Yeah, local businesses got killed by the economy for sure. 

The ski areas themselves came out ok I think, people still went skiing (clearly, with impressive skier totals annually across the board). But the B&B's, restaurants, etc all came out on the losing end as those splurges got axed primarily. 

To be honest, a lot of places kinda got lazy as the 200's rolled through and everyone felt rich. I was a landscaping foreman throughout it all, and you could tell people were throwing money around and tapping their homes for a couple hundred grand to finance it all. They were the first to go when the economy tanked. The wealthy ones, note the difference from rich, still spent, as they really had the money all along. More on point, how many crappy overpriced burgers have you ate in a ski town? Id be willing to suggest that since the recession, the weaker purveyors shut down, and the ones still around either improved or had their act together to begin with. I know Ive noticed a pretty dramatic increase, even the on mountain food seems to have gone up from the cafeteria garbage most used to serve.


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## oakapple (Mar 13, 2012)

skiadikt said:


> I ask, tell me what other ski area (if any) has made as many negative impacting decisions to their customers and cut back services as much as powdr has at k in the last 5 yrs. the answer is none.


I can't think of any. The only ski areas that have cut more are the ones on NELSAP.


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## Highway Star (Mar 14, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I can't think of any. The only ski areas that have cut more are the ones on NELSAP.


 
Can you give us an example?  Thanks!!


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## 2knees (Mar 14, 2012)

killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april.  they'll be one of the only places left standing in a week.  Ironic considering all the uproar about closing this and cutting that.  (many of which may be valid complaints)

seriously, who's gonna survive this week and next.

k
stowe
jay
sugarbush.

beyond that there wont be anyone left in vermont.  okemo's at 1000 feet at the base.  that's gonna be toast.  mt snow is so far south and hasnt gotten any natty this year, goner.  bromley facing south??? forget about it.  maybe stratton makes it to april 1st but i doubt any longer then that.


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## Highway Star (Mar 14, 2012)

2knees said:


> killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april. they'll be one of the only places left standing in a week. Ironic considering all the uproar about closing this and cutting that. (many of which may be valid complaints)
> 
> seriously, who's gonna survive this week and next.
> 
> ...


 
Well, perhaps that will be a good thing for them and will finally demonstrate to the new management that if they are (one of) the only ones open, they will get business.  In May.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 14, 2012)

2knees said:


> killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april.  they'll be one of the only places left standing in a week.  Ironic considering all the uproar about closing this and cutting that.  (many of which may be valid complaints)
> 
> seriously, who's gonna survive this week and next.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately the suck weather this season will result in most of your occasional skiers ending any thoughts of skiing by the end of March instead of the end of April.  There will be marginal additional dollars spent at Killington or anywhere else in April.   Do you really think that Killington will get many people from Okemo, Mt Snow , Bromley or Stratton ?    If I’m a Stowe, Jay or Sugarbush pass holder or regular I’m going to stay as far north as possible as the season winds down


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 14, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I live near NYC and disagree about sugarbush.  the additional 45 minutes in the car is no biggie for us.  But I can see where you're coming from.  That being said, anything south of killington is a non-starter for me.



I live in NYC and disagree with him about Sugarbush AND Jay (and Smuggs and Stowe).  Life is short and I'd much rather ski superior terrain than worry about a few extra hours driving.   And yeah, from that perspective, on a personal level I see no point in skiing anything in southern Vermont unless I'm "storm chasing" (storm dropped 15 inches on s.VT and 3 inches on n.VT).  

 FWIW, I havent skied Killington in YEARS, because I vowed to never ski there again after getting fed up with the sort of nightmarish crowds that just aren't found in n.VT, but from what I'm hearing in the various "anti-Killington Threads", apparently massive NYC+Boston crowds arent an issue anymore?   C'est vrai?   If so, maybe I'll return to Killington next season for a weekend.


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## 2knees (Mar 14, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Unfortunately the suck weather this season will result in most of your occasional skiers ending any thoughts of skiing by the end of March instead of the end of April.  There will be marginal additional dollars spent at Killington or anywhere else in April.   Do you really think that Killington will get many people from Okemo, Mt Snow , Bromley or Stratton ?    If I’m a Stowe, Jay or Sugarbush pass holder or regular I’m going to stay as far north as possible as the season winds down



You're probably right, unfortunately.

I'm no k basher/homer but as a day tripper i will always make the drive up there to ski as long as they stay open.  Memorial day was a tradition for us years ago so I can hope that they make extra cash this april and push it as far as they can but i sincerely doubt they would or even could do it.


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## St. Bear (Mar 14, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I live in NYC and disagree with him about Sugarbush AND Jay (and Smuggs and Stowe).  Life is short and I'd much rather ski superior terrain than worry about a few extra hours driving.   And yeah, from that perspective, on a personal level I see no point in skiing anything in southern Vermont unless I'm "storm chasing" (storm dropped 15 inches on s.VT and 3 inches on n.VT).
> 
> FWIW, I havent skied Killington in YEARS, because I vowed to never ski there again after getting fed up with the sort of nightmarish crowds that just aren't found in n.VT, but from what I'm hearing in the various "anti-Killington Threads", apparently massive NYC+Boston crowds arent an issue anymore?   C'est vrai?   If so, maybe I'll return to Killington next season for a weekend.



I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but when you have kids, 1-2 hours additional time in the car is a lifetime.  There's a reason places like Mt. Snow and Stratton are so popular and people don't continue driving further north.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Mar 14, 2012)

St. Bear...thats why i drive at night...kids are asleep, they dont know the difference between arriving at 10pm or midnight....


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## St. Bear (Mar 14, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> St. Bear...thats why i drive at night...kids are asleep, they dont know the difference between arriving at 10pm or midnight....



Smart.  But you have to acknowledge most people don't think that way.

Just like the average skier doesn't think that 1-2 hours additional driving is worth "better" skiing, which again leads to the success of the So. VT resorts.


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## Highway Star (Mar 14, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Unfortunately the suck weather this season will result in most of your occasional skiers ending any thoughts of skiing by the end of March instead of the end of April. There will be marginal additional dollars spent at Killington or anywhere else in April. Do you really think that Killington will get many people from Okemo, Mt Snow , Bromley or Stratton ? If I’m a Stowe, Jay or Sugarbush pass holder or regular I’m going to stay as far north as possible as the season winds down


 
Nice straw man arguement!!!  Almost as good as threecy!

Killington, or anywhere else, isn't going to get many "occasional" skiers in April.  What you FAIL to note is that there are plenty of serious, hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington that will infact come to Killington when their mountain closes.  I see them at Killington every year!!!


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## WWF-VT (Mar 14, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Nice straw man arguement!!!  Almost as good as threecy!
> 
> Killington, or anywhere else, isn't going to get many "occasional" skiers in April.  What you FAIL to note is that there are plenty of serious, hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington that will infact come to Killington when their mountain closes.  I see them at Killington every year!!!



My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april.  they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”

What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season


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## 2knees (Mar 14, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april.  they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”
> 
> What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season



my initial thought was that since many areas would be closing earlier then usual, then you would have some pickup by the resorts that were still open but taking emotion out of it, i see your point.  this season has been so bad i doubt any casual skiers are even considering going anymore.  by the time may rolls around, in a normal year, i would agree that it's truly just the hardcores anyway which is where you get into the whole "can you make money staying open forever" debate.

probably splitting hairs anyway, april or may still late season for the average skier.


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## Highway Star (Mar 15, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april. they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”
> 
> What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season


 
Casual skiers don't ski in April.  

Harcore skiers from other mountains go to the only place open -  be it sugarbush, Jay, or possibly Killington.  

S I M P L E.


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## Geoff (Mar 15, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> two observations from a non-K skier.
> first, as I drive through route 4, it appears the local businesses, particularly lodging, have taken a major hit in the last few years.
> 
> second, in listening to the radio in the car on my commute, I hear Kton commercials which perplex me.  They start off with a deep somewhat intimidating voice intoning "The Beast" and then they talk about family friendly atmosphere and their kids programs.  seems to me these are competing messages.  if you're trying to attract families with little kids, don't brand yourself, the Beast.  On the other hand, consumers drawn to the beast, probably don't want a mtn full of kids/families.



When Killington contracted skier visits from a million+ down to maybe 650K to 700K and Pico going to a 5-day schedule, the fringe lodging in Mendon got crushed.   They used to live on the overflow when the lodging on the Access Road sold out.   It doesn't sell out now.   With the lodging there closed or in distress, the restaurants on Route 4 also had a tough time.   This season has been brutal for the Access Road businesses but that's more tied to the weather than anything the current owners are doing.   The ski shops were stuck with excess inventory and started blowing stuff out before Presidents Week.   I've never seen that before.   It wouldn't surprise me to see a few business failures this year.

Killington is being run by an ops guy.   The first year they showed up, they spent zero on marketing.   When business collapsed, they started spending a little but it's nothing like the Preston Smith hype machine of the 1980's and first half of the 1990's.   They have no clue how to market the resort.   "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign.   Killington should go back to the Preston Smith list of superlatives.   First to open.  Last to close.   Biggest snowmaking system in the world.   Best night life in the east.   Of course, you have to actually be first to open, last to close, and blow snow on everything to market the place that way.    In the Preston Smith years, this year would have been a textbook example of the Killington competitive advantage.   He would have blown snow on everything.   He would have blown a glacier on Superstar with skiing to Memorial Day.   The message is that no matter how bad everybody else is, Killington is 100% open and a safe bet to book a vacation and a great value as a place to get a season pass and invite all your day ticket friends up.

Even in their leanest years where they were at risk of defaulting on their loans, ASC still got it and marketed Killington properly.   The current owner/operator is risking losing critical mass.   If they don't get the skier visits, there's no night life.   They can't afford to blow snow.   It causes a death spiral where fewer and fewer people show up every year.


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## snowmonster (Mar 16, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Killington is being run by an ops guy.   The first year they showed up, they spent zero on marketing.   When business collapsed, they started spending a little but it's nothing like the Preston Smith hype machine of the 1980's and first half of the 1990's.   They have no clue how to market the resort.   "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign.   Killington should go back to the Preston Smith list of superlatives.   First to open.  Last to close.   Biggest snowmaking system in the world.   Best night life in the east.   Of course, you have to actually be first to open, last to close, and blow snow on everything to market the place that way.    In the Preston Smith years, this year would have been a textbook example of the Killington competitive advantage.   He would have blown snow on everything.   He would have blown a glacier on Superstar with skiing to Memorial Day.   The message is that no matter how bad everybody else is, Killington is 100% open and a safe bet to book a vacation and a great value as a place to get a season pass and invite all your day ticket friends up.


Looks like Boyne learned this lesson well as shown by how they operate Sunday River-Sugarloaf-Loon. Early opening at the River and late close at the Loaf. They make a ton of snow at the River and Loon. I was actually impressed by the amount of snow they blew at Loon this year. Friends at the River say that they're still actually planning to blow snow there if the weather improves. As for marketing, didn't the River claim to be the first to open in the nation last season? A pub in Bethel got in on the old Otten routine of dumping snow on Boston Common. As for superlatives, aren't they now billing the Loaf as the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi? I don't know if Boyne is making a lot of money at these places or what the ski visit numbers are but everytime I pull into the parking lot at any of these places, I hear that kid from Field of Dreams who said: "people will come." Perhaps K management should look at the Boyne playbook.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2012)

In regards to marketing, one thing that hasn't been said is that marketing has become stupid cheap compared to years ago.  20 years ago, Ski, Powder and Skiing Magazines were a couple hundred pages thick and every skier/snowboarder subscribed to them all because that's where you got information.  Back then, businesses had power in marketing because they controlled the content of how their business was marketed.

In today's day of internet, the magazines are dead.  In today's day of radio, a large audience has dropped out to Satellite options where they don't have to hear advertisements.  

The product matters more than ever today over a business having a savvy marketing department and substantial budget.   Why?  Word of "webmouth" is now KING.  The consumer markets the product more than ever.  Put a product out that people love and they will yelp, facebook and tweet to their hearts content the virtues of that product.  Put a product out that people dislike.........you get buried fast and your marketing budget goes from promotion to damage control and protecting your image on the net.  Businesses now have very little control on the content of how their resort is marketed.  It's all about having the best product and vocal fans......


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## SkiFanE (Mar 16, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Looks like Boyne learned this lesson well as shown by how they operate Sunday River-Sugarloaf-Loon. Early opening at the River and late close at the Loaf. They make a ton of snow at the River and Loon. I was actually impressed by the amount of snow they blew at Loon this year. Friends at the River say that they're still actually planning to blow snow there if the weather improves. As for marketing, didn't the River claim to be the first to open in the nation last season? A pub in Bethel got in on the old Otten routine of dumping snow on Boston Common. As for superlatives, aren't they now billing the Loaf as the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi? I don't know if Boyne is making a lot of money at these places or what the ski visit numbers are but everytime I pull into the parking lot at any of these places, I hear that kid from Field of Dreams who said: "people will come." Perhaps K management should look at the Boyne playbook.



Our first fall at SR was 2004 (ASC days), and we invited friends up for Fall Festival/Wife carrying.  It was a dud...NOTHING to do..kids were bored, we ditched after 45 mins and went to Fryeburg fair.  Last year...1000s of people, parking lot overflow, bands, craft fair, BBQ...awesome.  I'm not sure if Boyne makes more $ on ski tickets now, but they sure get people to come, create a vibe, and they must be making $ on the concessions and that sort of stuff.


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## dangah (Mar 16, 2012)

Geoff said:


> They have no clue how to market the resort.   "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign...The current owner/operator is risking losing critical mass.   If they don't get the skier visits, there's no night life.   They can't afford to blow snow.   It causes a death spiral where fewer and fewer people show up every year.



Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying.  Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.

Happy spring skiing and riding y'all.


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## snoseek (Mar 16, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> In regards to marketing, one thing that hasn't been said is that marketing has become stupid cheap compared to years ago.  20 years ago, Ski, Powder and Skiing Magazines were a couple hundred pages thick and every skier/snowboarder subscribed to them all because that's where you got information.  Back then, businesses had power in marketing because they controlled the content of how their business was marketed.
> 
> In today's day of internet, the magazines are dead.  In today's day of radio, a large audience has dropped out to Satellite options where they don't have to hear advertisements.
> 
> The product matters more than ever today over a business having a savvy marketing department and substantial budget.   Why?  Word of "webmouth" is now KING.  The consumer markets the product more than ever.  Put a product out that people love and they will yelp, facebook and tweet to their hearts content the virtues of that product.  Put a product out that people dislike.........you get buried fast and your marketing budget goes from promotion to damage control and protecting your image on the net.  Businesses now have very little control on the content of how their resort is marketed.  It's all about having the best product and vocal fans......



this,  and its so clear the resorts that get this and the ones that don't. Times have certainly changed.


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## bobbutts (Mar 16, 2012)

Nice comments from HS, Oakapple, adiron, dhs
I guess I don't disagree with you all the time.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 16, 2012)

dangah said:


> Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying.  Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.
> ...



It is not fair to just pick and choose a couple of statistics to try and prove your point. Can we have those VT vs. K skier visit stats for each year since the year before POWDR took over? Please. Thank you.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 17, 2012)

All I know is there wasn't a room available at either the Spruce Peak Lodge at Stowe or The Jay Hotel Thurs. night. Was the Killington Grand fully booked?


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## Rogman (Mar 18, 2012)

Not a fan of the Beast campaign, it is silly and juvenile. Drawing a cause and effect connection between it and an uptick in skier visits may result in erroneous conclusions. This year at least, it is more likely that Killington has done well with respect to the Vt. average because of extensive price cutting. There have been deals available all winter long. The lots have been full, but my guess is the yield is way down. That's where K's marketing has been effective.


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## Geoff (Mar 18, 2012)

dangah said:


> Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying.  Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.
> 
> Happy spring skiing and riding y'all.



Enjoy your mandatory furlough.


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## Bubbartzky (Mar 19, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> I seem to recall the griping about ASC and how K people were so relieved to see them gone. Those were the days when this board had a lot of references to the phrase "eat what you kill." Now, people are looking back at the good old days of ASC. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
> 
> For my part, I can never understand why K skiers dump on their mountain and its management on a regular basis. Unless you are tied to the mountain because you made an investment, the obvious solution is to ski some other place if you hate K so much. From what I can observe among the VT resorts, the Bush, Jay, Magic, MRG and Stowe seem to be doing right by their respective client bases. Why not go there? Arguing from a "it was much better then" perspective won't really cut it. The days of Pres Smith and skiing 'til July are over and they're probably never coming back.
> 
> I used to ski K in the ASC days. In fact, it was the closest I had to a home mountain. When ASC broke up, I chose to ski Sunday River partly because of the positive vibe among the patrons and the fact that management seemed to listen to us. Never regretted that decision. I sometimes get the urge to ski K on my blackout days and see the old stomping grounds. But, since all I hear from patrons is how much of a dump that place is now and how it's so lousily run, I've decided to steer clear. After all, if the natives are so restless, something must be amiss. Why share in the misery?



I believe Sugarbush has picked up around 50,000 visits in years since Powdr got here.  Jay has been increasing as well.  Killington clearly has lost market share although, this year, they have probably regained some due to being open earlier and with more terrain than most others.


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## Bubbartzky (Mar 19, 2012)

dangah said:


> Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying.  Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.
> 
> Happy spring skiing and riding y'all.



Is that 12% Killington alone or Killington and Pico combined?  Seems to me you market them separately so you should discuss them separately.  

Personally, I think you've done an excellent job of marketing Pico. I'm not so sure about Killington.


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## Bubbartzky (Mar 19, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Enjoy your mandatory furlough.



15 yards for unnecessary roughness.

They do the mandatory furlough every year although I understand this year it's going to 5 weeks from the usual four, at least for some staff.


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## AdironRider (Mar 19, 2012)

Mandatory furloughs are very common. My wife goes through 2 weeks in the spring and 2 weeks in the fall. To hold that against Powdr is dumb, when it pretty much a given in the industry.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2012)

Hell, when I worked for Intrawest, I WISH I had a furlough at Snowshoe.  They kept one hotel and restaurant open during the off season and the managers were required to work in the restaurant.  All staff were let go during the off season, including waitstaff making $2.15/hr.  Thing was, I was managing their conference and banquet operations that still required 40+ hours per week of my time.  So, I'd do my "real: job, then have to go bartend 3 nights a week in the restaurant.  So, I was working 65 hours a week even during the off season.

The bosses sold it to us that it was extra money.  After working 80+ hours a week all season long, making extra cash wasn't what I wanted to do.  I wanted to work a normal 40 hour week.  Needless to say, I and most of the other middle managers at the company left that spring for better employers. My next employer (Wisp) did the exact same thing.  Haven't worked in the ski business since and never will again.


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

So, this came up on K-zone, which reminded me that I forgot to answer my own question:



			
				Bubba said:
			
		

> My understanding is that Sugarbush has picked up about 50,000 skier visits since Powdr's arrival at Killington.


 


			
				Stormchaser said:
			
		

> Wonder what their take per skier visit is? What's Killington's take per skier visit? Be interesting to know how much money Killington has sent their way and how much Killington has lost just to Sugarbush...


 
Yield per skier visit? In the ballpark of $75 to $95....so call it $85 per skier visit. That works out to *$4,250,000 in lost revenue per year.* *Just to sugarbush alone*.

Poor publicity, resulting from poor decisions about cost cutting/pricing/services/etc, has lost them in excess of 100k skier visits per year on average, probably costs them in the realm *of $10,000,000 in lost revenue per year*.

So, how much did all this budget cutting save......?


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> So, this came up on K-zone, which reminded me that I forgot to answer my own question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I do remember correctly HS, even you have said that Powdr's per visit yield is up over what it was with ASC, so therefore your figure likely isn't all as it appears.

If you're getting a net gain of say $10 per skier visit yield, over the course of the let's call it 700k skiers visits (feel free to insert whatever # you want), that's still a net gain of $7,000,000 which more than offsets that theoretical loss of $4,250,000


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## Tooth (Mar 28, 2012)

I bet no one from England will ever go there again after this weeks fiasco. SR had to take all the Brits in for the upcoming invasion. Heard SR is going to go after these guys hard with all sorts of perks for them while they are in Maine. Good job Killington. Maine thanks you.


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If I do remember correctly HS, even you have said that Powdr's per visit yield is up over what it was with ASC, so therefore your figure likely isn't all as it appears.
> 
> If you're getting a net gain of say $10 per skier visit yield, over the course of the let's call it 700k skiers visits (feel free to insert whatever # you want), that's still a net gain of $7,000,000 which more than offsets that theoretical loss of $4,250,000


 
Except they lost at least 100k visits, but more like 200k really if you compare the average of the last 5 years of ASC vs. 5 years of POWDR.  

If those people were still coming they would be spending at a rate similar to the average yield.....and I'd be willing to bet that most of them left for other reasons besides cost. They are literally giving up multiple millions of dollars per year.

You can fudge the yields all you want and compare vs. ASC. However, fact is they have lost alot of skier visits. A loss of visits of that size CANNOT realisticly be overcome with an increase of yield, which means a (possibly massive?) decrease in revenue.  Look at all the continuing cutbacks - snowmaking, 8:30am start, lifts.  As Geoff likes to say "they have lost critical mass".


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Except they lost at least 100k visits, but more like 200k really if you compare the average of the last 5 years of ASC vs. 5 years of POWDR.
> 
> If those people were still coming they would be spending at a rate similar to the average yield.....and I'd be willing to bet that most of them left for other reasons besides cost. They are literally giving up multiple millions of dollars per year.
> 
> You can fudge the yields all you want and compare vs. ASC. However, fact is they have lost alot of skier visits. A loss of visits of that size CANNOT realisticly be overcome with an increase of yield, which means a (possibly massive?) decrease in revenue.  Look at all the continuing cutbacks - snowmaking, 8:30am start, lifts.  As Geoff likes to say "they have lost critical mass".



The main point of my statement was just to point out the one sided rhetoric that you were presenting. There are usually atleast 2 sides to every story, and by just presenting one, you're fostering an agenda. If you can present information with both the point and counterpoint and then defend your point, now you're much more credible.

Coming from the scientific training perspective that I have,  I'm trained to think in a way that not only looks at the apparent problem, but also all the other perspectives that I can think of, and then formulate a response(s) for that problem.  

If you'd like to be taken more seriously, maybe even by people who actually make the descisions at K (since I think that we all know that some of them do lurk and occassionally participate here), try and make an arguement that can't almost immediately have some "holes" punched in it. You can, and regularly do, make some solid, educated GUESSES about K.  And for that vast majority of us, that's all that we can do is make GUESSES about K.  Very few people actually know their real, objective numbers.  Those people, whether you like it or not, seem to be happy with those private numbers, and while you might not agree with those numbers,  sometimes that how it goes in the real business world.  Will Powdr continue to hold it's seemingly rigid managerial style that it has done with K??  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Only time will tell....


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

drjeff said:


> The main point of my statement was just to point out the one sided rhetoric that you were presenting. There are usually atleast 2 sides to every story, and by just presenting one, you're fostering an agenda. If you can present information with both the point and counterpoint and then defend your point, now you're much more credible.
> 
> Coming from the scientific training perspective that I have, I'm trained to think in a way that not only looks at the apparent problem, but also all the other perspectives that I can think of, and then formulate a response(s) for that problem.
> 
> If you'd like to be taken more seriously, maybe even by people who actually make the descisions at K (since I think that we all know that some of them do lurk and occassionally participate here), try and make an arguement that can't almost immediately have some "holes" punched in it. You can, and regularly do, make some solid, educated GUESSES about K. And for that vast majority of us, that's all that we can do is make GUESSES about K. Very few people actually know their real, objective numbers. Those people, whether you like it or not, seem to be happy with those private numbers, and while you might not agree with those numbers, sometimes that how it goes in the real business world. Will Powdr continue to hold it's seemingly rigid managerial style that it has done with K?? Maybe yes, maybe no. Only time will tell....


 
Huh........."scientific training".......you sound like a dentist or something.

Riddle me this, dentist. Assume a drop from 900k to 700k skier visits (5 year average). Next assume a $75 yield per visit which is about industry average for large resorts. With their reduced visits, they would now need to make a $96.42 yield per visit to mantain the same revenue. Is that particularly realistic? Pass the sniff test? Or is the reality that they have lost a large chunk of revenue and are cutting accordingly?


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## Gilligan (Mar 28, 2012)

drjeff said:


> The main point of my statement was just to point out the one sided rhetoric that you were presenting. There are usually atleast 2 sides to every story, and by just presenting one, you're fostering an agenda. If you can present information with both the point and counterpoint and then defend your point, now you're much more credible.


I did not realize that we were supposed to be so fair in our arguments here. Does everyone else know about this? :lol:


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 28, 2012)

I have always considered HighwayStar to be fair and balanced - just like Fox News!


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## my poor knees (Mar 28, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I have always considered HighwayStar to be fair and balanced - just like Fox News!



I'm still new here but I appreciate his passion for skiing and he obviously loves the mountain. I don't mind him at all. In his mind he probably thinks of it as constructive critisism. But If I was running a business that he didn't like, my opinion might be different


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## Nick (Mar 28, 2012)

I don't either just wish he'd condense a bit more lol


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## steamboat1 (Mar 28, 2012)

I hope they keep doing what they're doing.

Less skier visits to K works for me...:beer:


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 28, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I hope they keep doing what they're doing.
> 
> Less skier visits to K works for me...:beer:



It was easy to find short lift lines this year, even on Saturdays. The limited terrain made for some crowded trails, though.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Huh........."scientific training".......you sound like a dentist or something.
> 
> Riddle me this, dentist. Assume a drop from 900k to 700k skier visits (5 year average). Next assume a $75 yield per visit which is about industry average for large resorts. With their reduced visits, they would now need to make a $96.42 yield per visit to mantain the same revenue. Is that particularly realistic? Pass the sniff test? Or is the reality that they have lost a large chunk of revenue and are cutting accordingly?



Did you factor in that Killington during it's last year as an ASC resort had sold numerous All For One passes?  They were dirt cheap and got you into three resorts.  Now Killington charges a little bit more for the same pass and doesn't split the pie with SR and SL.  You must factor those in as a reason for a drop, which really isn't any fault of Killingtons.

All that said Killington has been my home mountain for the past 8 years and am not a big fan of the ownership, but still a big fan of the mountain....the only thing that really matters to me.


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 28, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Huh........."scientific training".......you sound like a dentist or something.
> 
> Riddle me this, dentist. Assume a drop from 900k to 700k skier visits (5 year average). Next assume a $75 yield per visit which is about industry average for large resorts. With their reduced visits, they would now need to make a $96.42 yield per visit to mantain the same revenue. Is that particularly realistic? Pass the sniff test? Or is the reality that they have lost a large chunk of revenue and are cutting accordingly?



Were is it that you get your #'s from for the industry?  I know many of the $ #'s at another mtn, and have to say that you are not very accurate, on your "guesses".


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Were is it that you get your #'s from for the industry?  I know many of the $ #'s at another mtn, and have to say that you are not very accurate, on your "guesses".



Various reading around on industry studies.  $75 overall per skier visit for large areas is an accurate industry average.


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 29, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Various reading around on industry studies.  $75 overall per skier visit for large areas is an accurate industry average.



Just a FYI then.  As someone who knows and has seen the actual #'s, your guesses are not very accurate, for industry standards.

Thats not just on the income per visit, but many things that you have posted.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 29, 2012)

I think Highway Star's figure of $75 yield is very reasonable for a resort like Killington.

When I worked for Snowshoe in 2002-2003, the resort did $30M in ski related business (lift tickets and lessons).  The mountain did roughly 500K skier visits.  That's $60 a skier visit.  That's also 10 years ago.


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## Highway Star (Mar 29, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Just a FYI then. As someone who knows and has seen the actual #'s, your guesses are not very accurate, for industry standards.
> 
> Thats not just on the income per visit, but many things that you have posted.


 
Overall yield (not including lodging and "other") is about $75 per visit for large areas.

http://www.saminfo.com/issues/article.php?tid=4046


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## WWF-VT (Mar 29, 2012)

Just wondering




Did Killington get any natural snow this week?


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## Highway Star (Mar 29, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Overall yield (not including lodging and "other") is about $75 per visit for large areas.
> 
> http://www.saminfo.com/issues/article.php?tid=4046


 
I should note that Lodging and "Other" are IMHO not fair to use in overall yield when trying to benchmark ski areas, since some areas control a huge percentage of lodging and others control none, etc.

Even more interestingly, you can dig out the Killington Pico sale SEC filing and calculate their overall yield for Killington.  Depending on which skier visits count you use, their ticket yeild was about 30% below industry average, but their overal was about average.


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## J'Hams (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree with everything everyone says in this entire thread. 
I feel like each time I'm nearly sliced in 1/2 by a snowboarder my ticket value should go down $10. 
If that were true at Killington--they would owe me $2 and I would ski for free--on each visit.


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## AdironRider (Aug 28, 2012)

Ahh bumping old K threads with snowboarder hate. Way to make a first impression.


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## Nick (Aug 29, 2012)

Crikey


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## steamboat1 (Aug 29, 2012)

Yep K is the only mountain with crazed snowboarders.


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## Geoff (Aug 29, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Yep K is the only mountain with crazed snowboarders.



Killington had the same problem back in 1980.  It's not the snowboard.   It's testosterone and teens & 20-somethings at a busy ski area with a poor layout.   There is very limited intermediate terrain and it tends to be littered with trail intersections.   At other resorts, those people are much more spread out across the hill.


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## Tooth (Aug 29, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Killington had the same problem back in 1980.  It's not the snowboard.   It's testosterone and teens & 20-somethings at a busy ski area with a poor layout.   There is very limited intermediate terrain and it tends to be littered with trail intersections.   At other resorts, those people are much more spread out across the hill.




Snowboarders, freestyle skiers, whats the difference? Really? Why does everyone hate on the snowboarders so much? Those people?


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## Riverskier (Aug 29, 2012)

Tooth said:


> Snowboarders, freestyle skiers, whats the difference? Really? Why does everyone hate on the snowboarders so much? Those people?



They set up human blockades all over the mountain.


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## Tooth (Aug 29, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> They set up human blockades all over the mountain.



I just ride around them while trying to have fun and being happy. If they set up in the wrong spot I tell them in a nice manner. I see just as many skiers set up in poor spots also.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 30, 2012)

Tooth said:


> I just ride around them while trying to have fun and being happy. If they set up in the wrong spot I tell them in a nice manner. I see just as many skiers set up in poor spots also.



I agree with that statement.  I will also counter with that since snowboarders sit, it makes it worse especially in blind spot.  Which is why the skiers gripe more.

I have almost killed snowboarders sitting in the middle of the slope beneath a lip or headwall.   I can't figure out why they are sitting on a steeper section of the trail, except that it is easir to stand up.


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## Tooth (Aug 30, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I agree with that statement.  I will also counter with that since snowboarders sit, it makes it worse especially in blind spot.  Which is why the skiers gripe more.
> 
> I have almost killed snowboarders sitting in the middle of the slope beneath a lip or headwall.   I can't figure out why they are sitting on a steeper section of the trail, except that it is easir to stand up.



I agree. When I see anyone stopped under a lip or headwall I always educate them as to why it is a real bad place to be stopped. I hate it when people do that.


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## Geoff (Aug 30, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> They set up human blockades all over the mountain.



You should be at Killington during PSIA ski instructor's training week.   They're giving "standing around lessons" all over the hill.   I'll take the flock of snowboarders sitting on the trail any time.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2012)

That's very encouraging to hear.  I've never seen a group of teen or pre-teen snowboarders yelled at by mountain staff for "lounging" underneath a ledge or headwall.   

IMO, they should start clipping tickets for that.  They will, of course, but it will take a couple of high-profile deaths first.


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## Bene288 (Aug 30, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's very encouraging to hear.  I've never seen a group of teen or pre-teen snowboarders yelled at by mountain staff for "lounging" underneath a ledge or headwall.
> 
> IMO, they should start clipping tickets for that.  They will, of course, but it will take a couple of high-profile deaths first.



Well said. It's getting worse and worse. People are just so spacey. It's not just snowboarders, I see plenty of skiers doing the same thing. I had an accident at Gore, caused by someone stopped under a head wall. Right before it all happened I watched patrol ski right by these people, what are they thinking?


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 31, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's very encouraging to hear.  I've never seen a group of teen or pre-teen snowboarders yelled at by mountain staff for "lounging" underneath a ledge or headwall.
> 
> IMO, they should start clipping tickets for that.  They will, of course, but it will take a couple of high-profile deaths first.



Geoff wasn't saying they were giving lessons on how to eliminate the standing around.  He was insinuating that because of the patrol training there is lots of standing around on the mountain, therefore creating additional hazards. 

Correct me if I am wrong Geoff


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## Geoff (Aug 31, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Geoff wasn't saying they were giving lessons on how to eliminate the standing around.  He was insinuating that because of the patrol training there is lots of standing around on the mountain, therefore creating additional hazards.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong Geoff



Ski Instructors, not patrol.   But yeah, the PSIA clinics at Killington are the absolute worst for clogging the trails with pompous wannabe instructor-types from some mole hill in the Poconos standing around.   Way worse than any flock of squatting snowboarders.


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## RENO (Aug 31, 2012)

J'Hams said:


> I agree with everything everyone says in this entire thread.
> I feel like each time I'm nearly sliced in 1/2 by a snowboarder my ticket value should go down $10.
> If that were true at Killington--they would owe me $2 and I would ski for free--on each visit.



Sorry, I was just trying to slice off an arm or a leg. I'll be more careful next time! :-D


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