# Off Topic: Ice Dam



## eclaire (Jan 27, 2011)

Last summer, instead of spending the money to blow insulation into our roof, we elected to buy new ski equipment for myself, my husband and our daughter.  I stand by that decision! :grin:

However, it has come back to haunt us because we've now developed a huge ice dam on the back of our house and it's beginning to leak into our kitchen.  Before last night's storm that dumped another foot of snow on the roof, we cleared off the snow that we could get to and exposed about 8" of ice.  Following the recommendation of a friend, we filled light socks with ice melt and laid them perpendicularly on the ice.  This was supposed to create troughs that the water could flow through and off the roof.  Difficult to tell if this worked, but if it did it isn't enough.

Short of calling a roofer who will charge me $300 per dam (there's another forming on the front of the house, I see), any suggestions on how to deal with this would really be appreciated.

Apologies in advance if I've broken some forum rule here by being off-topic, but I thought someone here might have some experience with this.

Many thanks!
claire


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## jaja111 (Jan 27, 2011)

I would suggest laying the socks parallel to the fall of the roof instead. And instead of using socks, try nylon stockings (longer) laid above the dam. As water drips down the roof it will carry the ice melt with it underneath the dam and dislodge it. Another option - if you can find it - is an electric cord style heater. I know they exist but just haven't ever found one yet. 

Other than the variations on your original plan there, that dam is there until the thaw and will continue lifting, peeling, and separating the roof allowing the water to enter - which is usually melting from either just the house's heat or classically a light fixture with an incandescent bulb. It would take a jackhammer to destroy it by any means other than melting it. Nylons filled with ice melter like calcium chloride - try it and not perpendicular.


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## Glenn (Jan 27, 2011)

Read and article in the local free paper yesterday that said this has been a huge issue this year. One roofer says he hasn't seen this many issues with ice damming since the late 80's/early 90's. 

We've got a little going on as well. I think it's creeping back into the soffit; not under the shingles. We had a new roof put on a few years ago and 3' of rubber ice guard was put on the edges. Brown icicles against a white house is an interesting sight.


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## mlctvt (Jan 27, 2011)

+1 on the snow melt sock. 
We had a problem with the earlier storm this year and read about these online. I got a few 40 lb buckets of ice melt and made a bunch  of these ice melt socks. Works great! Cut nice channels in the ice in less than a day and the roof drains through the channels. I put one every 6  to 8 feet or so. Just refill or replace the socks when the ice melt disappears. 
They last a while . Even through last nights 16'+ snow storm the channels were still clear of ice and snow

We put ours perpendicular from the front edge of the gutter to past the ice dam.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2011)

Saw a little drip drip down stairs in VT yesterday afternoon.  So, I spent an hour on the ladder chipping away. Thank God I left a small sledge hammer in the back of the Jeep. I had used it to pound in some end posts for the firewood stacks and never took it out.   Had to be careful, that ice had backed up under some shingles and if you peeled it off....part of the shingle came too. Luckily, the house is an a frme, so I wasn't off the ground much.  May try the ice sock idea back in CT.  That roof is much higher.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 28, 2011)

How big are these ice dams?


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## gmcunni (Jan 28, 2011)

good thread!

i tried the above mentioned stocking trick last night, worked very well!


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 28, 2011)

Ive got ice dams on roof edges that are higher than my extension ladder goes. And one section that started leaking is over a section of attic that's virtually non-accessable (it's like a 1-ft crawl space) so trying to catch drip water in the attic would be a PITA.  Any suggestions?  (other than nothing can be done now)?


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2011)

I read online that some people threw the socks up on the roof. Maybe attaching some rope to them to you could drag them in place. 

Root,
In CT, it looks like the gutters are overflowing with ice. In VT, they were about 3-4" tall, with big icicles. They went up the roof about 4-7".


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## RootDKJ (Jan 28, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I read online that some people threw the socks up on the roof. Maybe attaching some rope to them to you could drag them in place.
> 
> Root,
> In CT, it looks like the gutters are overflowing with ice. In VT, they were about 3-4" tall, with big icicles. They went up the roof about 4-7".


Crap.  I might have a bit of a problem in one spot.  I'll try to get a pic tomorrow.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2011)

Really good way to tell is ice on your siding. It looks like it appears out of nowhere. It's the water running beind the siding. Oh, and brown icicles on the siding too. That's the stuff the water picks up as it travels through the plywood or paper/tar backing behind the siding. 

Oddy, I have no signs of leakage in the soffits in the attic. I think the ice and water guard is working. But it's getting in the actual soffit near where the gutter is mounted; small gaps in the wood there. That's my theory.


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## kickstand (Jan 30, 2011)

What's the theory on using socks/panty hose for the ice melt?  Any reason I can't just grab a few handfuls and throw it up on the roof?  Is it just to keep it in place?  I just noticed we have it pretty bad on the back of the house.  Ice climbs up the shingles about 12-18" from the gutters.  No signs of water in the basement or walls.  I still need to check the attic, but it looked clear about 4 days ago.


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## eclaire (Jan 30, 2011)

Well, we seemed to have fixed the problem.  We bought a roof rake and took off all the snow that we could.  Then, we filled socks with ice melt and placed them perpendicular to the dam with the ends hanging over the edge.  We spaced them about every 4-6' across the roof.

By the end of the day, they had melted down and created channels for the water to run out.  No more leaks in the kitchen.  We'll have to keep it up all winter I guess, and improve our insulation before next year.  Oh yes, we also stopped using the canned (recessed) lighting in the kitchen which gets quite hot and just use a couple of smaller pendant lights.

It was a PITA, but much better than dealing with the damage to our kitchen!

Thanks for the suggestions...

claire


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## ChileMass (Jan 30, 2011)

Just spent 4 hours chipping the ice dams off my eaves with a rock hammer.  A rip hammer with a 90* angle would probably work well also - better than a claw hammer with the turned down end.  Chip carefully to avoid damaging the shingles.  

Hauling and setting the ladder thru almost 3 feet of snow was a chore.  Aluminum slides pretty good on snow, so I did that going around to the back of the house.  Just be careful and go slow up and down - the rungs are slippery.  

My elbow hurts - guess I have ice-dam elbow instead of tennis elbow........


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## wa-loaf (Jan 30, 2011)

Not going to help anyone much right now, but have your attics insulated this summer. I had 18 inches of insulation put into the attic when I moved into my house as well as some air sealing. I have had virtually no melting.


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## smitty77 (Jan 30, 2011)

ChileMass said:


> Just spent 4 hours chipping the ice dams off my eaves with a rock hammer.  A rip hammer with a 90* angle would probably work well also - better than a claw hammer with the turned down end.  Chip carefully to avoid damaging the shingles.
> 
> Hauling and setting the ladder thru almost 3 feet of snow was a chore.  Aluminum slides pretty good on snow, so I did that going around to the back of the house.  Just be careful and go slow up and down - the rungs are slippery.
> 
> My elbow hurts - guess I have ice-dam elbow instead of tennis elbow........



Sounds a lot like my day... 5 hours total between the shoveling of the low-angle part of the roof on the back of the house and then busting up the ice dam at the end of said roof.  Looks like I got to it before it found the underside of my shingles.  The ice at the roof edge was a good 6-8" above the lip of the gutter.  LOTS of chipping, but it's all down now.

Your recommendation of a rip hammer (with the straight claw) is spot-on - that's what I used along with a wrecking bar.  I could tap on the bar where the ice met the shingle surface and use a little leverage to break most of the ice off in large chunks, football size and greater in most cases.  Mind you, I was doing this while sitting on the roof and working toward the edge which is not for the faint of heart but it allowed me to work my way down the roof and not have to move the ladder a hundred times.  Then I used the claw to whack away enough ice from the roof edge to _hopefully_ keep it free for the rest of the winter.  The house is only 7 years old and I've never had this problem - chalking it up to a bad winter but the roof edge will get pulled down with the roof-rake after after each storm now.


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## Greg (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm going to go buy some panty hose today. :lol: And some ice melt. My roof is way too freakin' high for me to fathom climbing up onto it, but I'm going to try to get something up there from the upstairs windows. One trick I read was to tie on a "throw rope" onto the end of the ice dam sock. It helps you toss it up there, and also get them off. My damming doesn't look bad (newer home, 6 years old), but there is some. Not a ton of snow has collected on the roof as we live in a real windy area, but a neighbor had an internal leak. Apparently it followed a beam somehow and damaged a wall in the center of the house on the lower level. Still not sure how water traveled to that spot.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 31, 2011)




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## powhunter (Jan 31, 2011)

Spent the last 4 1/2 hours shoveling the roof today...Man what a workout!  I Used a nylon rope as a  safety line and tied it o a tree on the other side of the house.  Worked out real well and saved my ass twice! 

steveo


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## billski (Jan 31, 2011)

We are in the process of managing two substantial ice dams.  There is enough damage internally that there will be an insurance claim.

  I've had them on other houses and found that whacking away with a hammer to be futile because the next day more snow would melt more and block the dam.  I've never used the sock thing, I will be interested in hearing how it works over the course of an entire season.   We solve it by shoveling the roof above the dam clear to the top.


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## Greg (Jan 31, 2011)

Everything I read online says you have to use calcium chloride in the socks, not regular old rock salt. Well, I have 100 lbs of Halite brand rock salt. Will it even work or is not worth trying?


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## MR. evil (Jan 31, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Not going to help anyone much right now, but have your attics insulated this summer. I had 18 inches of insulation put into the attic when I moved into my house as well as some air sealing. I have had virtually no melting.



Inadequate Insulation is only half the problem. Proper attic ventilation ( soffit & ridge vents) is just as important. You can have all the attic insulation in the world, but without good attic air flow you will have just as many problems.


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## MR. evil (Jan 31, 2011)

Greg said:


> Everything I read online says you have to use calcium chloride in the socks, not regular old rock salt. Well, I have 100 lbs of Halite brand rock salt. Will it even work or is not worth trying?



Just off the top of my head, salt is very corrosive to almost any building material. I would not intentionally throw salt on my roof / house.


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## MR. evil (Jan 31, 2011)

Glenn said:


> We had a new roof put on a few years ago and 3' of rubber ice guard was put on the edges. Brown icicles against a white house is an interesting sight.



3 feet or one row of ice and water shield is better than nothing, but most cases one row of ice and water shield at the rood edge does not meet most building codes in New England. At least those states that follow the IBC or have state building codes based on the IBC. It's hard to explain with out a diagram. But a house with a soffit (roof over hang) of 12" or more will need more than one row of 36" ice & water shield to be code compliant. It BS that most roofers get away with just one row.

One most sloped roofs I design / detail I call for the entire roof deck to be covered in I.W.S. Or I call for the minimum code required I.W.S and a really high end ($$$$) roof underlayment that cost more than I.W.S. Contractors then come back and recommend covering the entire roof deck with the I.W.S and they think they are getting one over on me. But I am actually getting exactly what I want.


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## Glenn (Jan 31, 2011)

I should check the file and see if it says what the guy put on. That some good info. 

So here's how it went down today.....me on a ladder, snow pants, old ski hat, old goggles, spare ski coat.....and chipping away with a small sledge.  Since we were in vt all weekend skiing ( priorities :lol: ), this was my first chance to do this in CT. I made 4 channels up front.......3 where filled with ice melt tube socks from the dollar store. Anyone ever try to mucle around an aluminum entention ladder in 2/3 feet of snow? It aint easy!  

Made 4 channels in the back, used the tube socks again. Theyre not that long, but should do the trick for now.  That damn ice was thick!!! Had to be 6" in spots. And went a good 12" up the roof. Nasty.  I grew some brass and went up on the back of the roof.  I had the ladder secured where two gutters meet and could use the vent pipe to grab.  I went over to the flat roof above the porch and shoveled that off. I then cleared ice from around that gutter. So thereI am, on my knees, on the roof, hitting ice with a small sledge....and its dark out.  What a sight for tqhe neighbors. Ha!


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## RootDKJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I should check the file and see if it says what the guy put on. That some good info.
> 
> So here's how it went down today.....me on a ladder, snow pants, old ski hat, old goggles, spare ski coat.....and chipping away with a small sledge.  Since we were in vt all weekend skiing ( priorities :lol: ), this was my first chance to do this in CT. I made 4 channels up front.......3 where filled with ice melt tube socks from the dollar store. Anyone ever try to mucle around an aluminum entention ladder in 2/3 feet of snow? It aint easy!
> 
> Made 4 channels in the back, used the tube socks again. Theyre not that long, but should do the trick for now.  That damn ice was thick!!! Had to be 6" in spots. And went a good 12" up the roof. Nasty.  I grew some brass and went up on the back of the roof.  I had the ladder secured where two gutters meet and could use the vent pipe to grab.  I went over to the flat roof above the porch and shoveled that off. I then cleared ice from around that gutter. So thereI am, on my knees, on the roof, hitting ice with a small sledge....and its dark out.  What a sight for tqhe neighbors. Ha!



Any beer involved?


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## Glenn (Jan 31, 2011)

After there was. :lol:  I'm not big on heights. I mean, the chair lift doesn't bother me; it's unrestrained heights.....like being near the edge of the roof that make the ol palms a little sweaty.


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## gmcunni (Jan 31, 2011)

powhunter said:


> I Used a nylon rope as a  safety line and tied it o a tree on the other side of the house.  Worked out real well and saved my ass twice!



reminds me of the story of the guy who tied the rope to the bumper of his car in the driveway so he wouldn't fall off the back of the house. his wife got in the car and drove away.


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## gladerider (Feb 1, 2011)

when i got home last nite, went to check the roof after dinner. found ice dam formation. started by shoveling the snow on the roof. 5 hours of shoveling. 9-2am. geez. and more coming. this flat land snow is useless.


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## billski (Feb 1, 2011)

MR. evil said:


> Inadequate Insulation is only half the problem. Proper attic ventilation ( soffit & ridge vents) is just as important. You can have all the attic insulation in the world, but without good attic air flow you will have just as many problems.



I have all that and still have problems, we rebuilt the entire friggin thing.   Our contractor is seeing a lot of this.lately.  I think a steeper roof pitch would help.


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## billski (Feb 1, 2011)

gladerider said:


> when i got home last nite, went to check the roof after dinner. found ice dam formation. started by shoveling the snow on the roof. 5 hours of shoveling. 9-2am. geez. and more coming. this flat land snow is useless.



Look at my roof today and you would never know it was shoveled clean on Sunday :sad:


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## MR. evil (Feb 1, 2011)

billski said:


> I have all that and still have problems, we rebuilt the entire friggin thing.   Our contractor is seeing a lot of this.lately.  I think a steeper roof pitch would help.



Having all those things and having them done right are two different things.


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## billski (Feb 1, 2011)

MR. evil said:


> Having all those things and having them done right are two different things.



Agreed.  Not convinced of the implied assertion as we were intimately involved in understanding the theory and rationale the builder presented.  It's an old house with lots of odd angles, many places other than soffit area where dams can form, such as where upper walls meet roof.


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## gmcunni (Feb 2, 2011)

i don't need a ladder to put the nylons on my roof


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 2, 2011)

MR. evil said:


> Inadequate Insulation is only half the problem. Proper attic ventilation ( soffit & ridge vents) is just as important. You can have all the attic insulation in the world, but without good attic air flow you will have just as many problems.



THIS  !!   

3 yrs ago  I had R 49 blown  in the attic and installed  fibreglass rafter channels  along the inside leading from new soffit  vents to a large Venting tower, that same yr i had an architectural roof with ice guard installed too, then i had R 20  blown in the walls this yr and the house has a double sandwich sheathing job with a 4 inch dead air space that had the blown insulation installed ---  this together  with 39 new windows done about 7 yrs  should hopefully do the trick for both  ventilation and insulation


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## wa-loaf (Feb 2, 2011)

MR. evil said:


> Inadequate Insulation is only half the problem. Proper attic ventilation ( soffit & ridge vents) is just as important. You can have all the attic insulation in the world, but without good attic air flow you will have just as many problems.



Got all that going on too.


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## Glenn (Feb 3, 2011)

Round 2 after cleaning the driveway yesterday. Put up about 12 more tube socks filled with melter. I bought a 50lb bag of melter....and the stuff turned out to be green. So now I have green drip marks on the ground under the socks. :lol:


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## billski (Feb 3, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Round 2 after cleaning the driveway yesterday. Put up about 12 more tube socks filled with melter. I bought a 50lb bag of melter....and the stuff turned out to be green. So now I have green drip marks on the ground under the socks. :lol:



How well do the tube socks work?  Guess the success will be measured when we have a thaw/freeze cycle again.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 3, 2011)

glad i'm not the only one with these issues!  the frnt of my house faces north, there is a good 6" of ice built up...I have leave guards on the gutters so i'm assuming all the ice is on top of that and not in the gutter as well....i'd like to get it off...some water coming in...


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## billski (Feb 3, 2011)

My contractor said that many contractors are seeing these problems this year in New England, old, new, remodeled houses.  The contractors are surprised nobody has found a way to address these problems.  The "correct" methods, including ice shield rubber and full ventilation and insulation are not working in many cases in these climates of frequent thaw/freeze cycles.  He is astonished nobody has come up with a fix for this.  He is collaborating with others to devise something, but it's still in the experimentation-test phase.  The current thinking is that the water passes over the edge and past the flashing and works it's way back into the sofit space, which is why we see water/icicles coming from the vents.  It then works it way back to the house structure.

My insurance appraiser said he is dealing with hundreds of claims already on all types of homes, old an new. He is already inundated and expects substantially more.


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## billski (Feb 3, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> glad i'm not the only one with these issues!  the frnt of my house faces north, there is a good 6" of ice built up...I have leave guards on the gutters so i'm assuming all the ice is on top of that and not in the gutter as well....i'd like to get it off...some water coming in...



You can't do much other than that sock method to get it off. Whacking at it can cause more damage.  Wait and pray for a warm day (did I say that??).  Get the snow above it off the roof asap, so there is nothing more to drain down to the gutter.


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## Glenn (Feb 3, 2011)

billski said:


> How well do the tube socks work?  Guess the success will be measured when we have a thaw/freeze cycle again.



It's good for creating a channel for the water to drain out of. But I have to keep an eye on it. If more snow falls on top of it...it can seal back up again. I'm hoping the sun today and tomorrow helps things along. 

There's a friggin boatload of ice up there. It's rather shocking when you're on the ladder looking at it. I should try and get some pics.


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## billski (Feb 3, 2011)

Glenn said:


> There's a friggin boatload of ice up there. It's rather shocking when you're on the ladder looking at it. I should try and get some pics.



I think a lot of people have ice buildups of 6 to 10 inches thick, I have about 6 inches at the worst place.  I snow rake the roof daily now.   The appraiser is coming back on Saturday.


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## Glenn (Feb 3, 2011)

I bet you're right Bill. You can really see the icicles and ridge of ice sitting in the gutters when driving around.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 4, 2011)

have to get a snorake, local hw store has some incoming...talke to my buddy whos a contaractor...said to wait, nothing can be done....put in the insurance claim and we'll deal with it later on...


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## Glenn (Feb 4, 2011)

I did an informal visual survey driving home yesterday. The ice damming it happening on new and old houses alike.


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## billski (Feb 4, 2011)

I got 100 lbs of Calcium chloride this morning, then got in an auto accident on the way home , which will screw up my weekend ski plans. 

True value hardware had some sort of chlorideI (calcium chloride?), but I was warned not to use it on roofs, so I wandered until I got a tip of a hardware store that had calcuim chloride.  Lowes was totally wiped out.
Glad I have a snow rake, but what's up there now is 3/4" of ice on the whole roof, the downside of having shoveled it off on Sunday. 
Ice dams are about 5" at the worst.

Decided to go with the panty hose method (benefits of being married and having all girls).  Got them up there.  Its sunny and they keep slipping down, but they are melting grooves.  Working at home to monitor and adjust the situation.  The dripping inside has started again.  Sucks.


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## drjeff (Feb 4, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I did an informal visual survey driving home yesterday. The ice damming it happening on new and old houses alike.



I did notice on my house that I had more significant ice damming on my South and West sides where the sun (whenever it is actually out  ) bakes the roof more than on the North/East sides.  That being said, from having been up on most of my roof this past Monday (there are some parts of the roof of my Cape style house where I'm just not going to venture given the height and pitch of the roof! ) that I did have ice damming all the way around.  The "good" thing (if there is one) is that having a decent sized addition put on my house 5 years ago where what parts of the roof weren't built new, were totally redone, I had some long discussions with the architect and builder about some previous water issues I had in my house and the soltuions they came up with (can't remember exactly what barriers, etc they used on the roof under the shingles) has worked great to date.  We'll see this year.....


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## snafu (Feb 4, 2011)

Read this post a couple days ago, looked at my house and saw some ice dams forming but no leaks or anything other than thick ice and icicles so I wasn't worried...until I looked yesterday and saw brown tinged ice running down the side of the house. Still I can't see any leaks inside but I will be armed with a roof rake and hopefully some ice melt of some sort at lunch.


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## Glenn (Feb 4, 2011)

I may have mentioned it earlier  in this thread...but our small A-Frame in VT actually had some ice dams on it. It's been a really interesting winter. VT usually gets a good amount of snow...but it must have been the combonation of snow amount, type and air temp that created it. 

If I've learned anything...maybe a metal roof isn't such a bad idea....LOL!


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## drjeff (Feb 4, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I may have mentioned it earlier  in this thread...but our small A-Frame in VT actually had some ice dams on it. It's been a really interesting winter. VT usually gets a good amount of snow...but it must have been the combonation of snow amount, type and air temp that created it.
> 
> If I've learned anything...maybe a metal roof isn't such a bad idea....LOL!



There's definately something to be said for a metal roof for sure.  And those almost automatic giant snowbanks they give you next to the house if the roof has enough pitch are cool to look at for sure!  :lol:


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 4, 2011)

this makes me want to get rid of the gutters entirely or just take em down for the winter.


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## djspookman (Feb 4, 2011)

In regards to the whole ice dam issue.. 

I have a problem on the old part of the house, but not the new.

Old house: ranch w/ a metal roof built in 1976, with only 4-6" of fiberglass bat insulation in the attic (ack!!), has some major damming issues due to lack of ventilation and insufficient insulation

Addition:  tumberframe rafters/ ridge w/ 9" SIP panels on the roof w/ a vented "cold roof" NO ice issues at all.

both roof surfaces are standing seam metal, no gutters.


Solution for my old roof (as well as others!) is more insulation in the attic, prop-a-vents at the eaves, vented soffits, vented ridge, and gable wall vents.  All will help make the roof a "cold roof"

I design and build houses for a living...

here's some diagrams:

http://www.faryal.net/image/338-0.jpg

http://www.michenerinc.com/Cold_Roof_Detail_2.jpg

also, this pic is my place w/ addition shown.  You can see there is no ice off the eaves, but int he foreground you see the icicles from the old part of the house.  The addition has a super insulated roof and a cold roof.  The old does not. .. hmm heat loss much?  This summer I'm doing a major energy-retrofit on the old part of the house.


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## Puck it (Feb 4, 2011)

Cold roof is what you want. However if the ridge vent is covered by snow then the flow becomes stagnant.  This is my problem.


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## djspookman (Feb 4, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Cold roof is what you want. However if the ridge vent is covered by snow then the flow becomes stagnant.  This is my problem.




haha, true!  gable end vents and ridge vents will help that issue.  In the mean time, do like I am and get up there and shovel! (or rake from the ground)


Another issue of course is your plumbing vents being buried and not working.  That could cause sewer gasses to build up in the home, or just plain slow draining fixtures.  We have 28-38" of snow on our roof.  Typical code for the plumbing vents is 18" tall, so clear those out as well!


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## Puck it (Feb 4, 2011)

djspookman said:


> haha, true!  gable end vents and ridge vents will help that issue.  In the mean time, do like I am and get up there and shovel! (or rake from the ground)
> 
> 
> Another issue of course is your plumbing vents being buried and not working.  That could cause sewer gasses to build up in the home, or just plain slow draining fixtures.  We have 28-38" of snow on our roof.  Typical code for the plumbing vents is 18" tall, so clear those out as well!


Vent pipe is not covered.  I only have ridge vent.  The house is a hip roof.


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## dmc (Feb 4, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> this makes me want to get rid of the gutters entirely or just take em down for the winter.



I don't have gutters...

I saw a ton of them ripped off of roofs after last Februarys 6 foot dump..  It got ugly..


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## wa-loaf (Feb 4, 2011)

dmc said:


> I don't have gutters...
> 
> I saw a ton of them ripped off of roofs after last Februarys 6 foot dump..  It got ugly..



I need my gutters, my basement gets wet if they are clogged and don't run the water away from the house.


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## Glenn (Feb 4, 2011)

drjeff said:


> There's definately something to be said for a metal roof for sure.  And those almost automatic giant snowbanks they give you next to the house if the roof has enough pitch are cool to look at for sure!  :lol:



And if snow sticks...you can ski down the roof. 


djspookman,
Good point on the cold roof. With our a-frame, that's just about inpossible without adding another deck to the roof. It's one reason I'm hesitant to insulate the walls/roof more. Without air flow, it's going to creat problems. Idealy, we'd add more insulation and built a deck on top of the existing roof, creating a gap for a some nice air flow. But, it's a weekend house and we can heat it all season without using a ton of propane. It is what it is for now.


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## djspookman (Feb 4, 2011)

Glenn said:


> And if snow sticks...you can ski down the roof.
> 
> 
> djspookman,
> Good point on the cold roof. With our a-frame, that's just about inpossible without adding another deck to the roof. It's one reason I'm hesitant to insulate the walls/roof more. Without air flow, it's going to creat problems. Idealy, we'd add more insulation and built a deck on top of the existing roof, creating a gap for a some nice air flow. But, it's a weekend house and we can heat it all season without using a ton of propane. It is what it is for now.



mmmm, yes A-frames...I haven't had any experience venting those, but first glance looks difficult!


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## billski (Feb 4, 2011)

How do you know when to take the calcium chloride socks off?  Or can I just leave them on?  I know the drainage is going to freeze over after dark if I take them out, but am I obstructing drainage?  Or do I take them off at some point and put them back on?


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## eclaire (Feb 6, 2011)

Bill,
We've just left ours on.  They've frozen into the dam so we couldn't get them out if we tried.  We just added new stockings yesterday next to the old ones, that had filled in.  Not sure if this is actually the correct way to do it but it seems to be working for us.

claire


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## jaja111 (Feb 6, 2011)

On the ice melter type issue - be aware that the new fad in ice melting is the addition of molasses or beet sugar into the mix. It further lowers the freezing temp and causes the the melt to "stick" to surfaces better. I can't see this being good for roofing material. Pure CaCl has to be the best (or rather - least worse). Truth be told, no ice melter is harmless to the structure (or the concrete walkway, or the driveway, or the road, etc.)

Another thing that I have found when actually removing the ice, as I had to due to neglected gutter cleaning duties prior to the first snowfall / freeze, using an air hammer is the shiznit. A pointed tip or chisel is useless but a blunt or flat end is excellent. It just blasts away the ice fracturing it deeply. Cheap tool if you already have an air compressor and enough hose line. Like others have said, the ice is just gonna come back. However if you have 6 tons of ice and can't see your gutter or structure being able to support that kind of load, it should be removed periodically. I'll be doing all sorts of gutter repair this spring.


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## billski (Feb 6, 2011)

eclaire said:


> Bill,
> We've just left ours on.  They've frozen into the dam so we couldn't get them out if we tried.  We just added new stockings yesterday next to the old ones, that had filled in.  Not sure if this is actually the correct way to do it but it seems to be working for us.
> 
> claire


thanks Clair. I was concerned it would block the channel. I ripped them out with a rake and the cacl scattered where it may. 
Ps I found a source for cacl here in no vt. Pm me before eight am mon and I'll see what I can bring back to Boston.
The builder on this old house says paper bags work as good as stockings.


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## Glenn (Feb 7, 2011)

We got home last night just before 10PM...I heard a sound I haven't heard in quite awhile...water running down the gutter. So the warm weather really helped things yesterday.


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## billski (Feb 8, 2011)

I think we may finally have it under control.  50 lbs of CaCl later, my roof looks like a series of sluices.  It's not completely stopped but down from half-hour mop ups to minor seepage.  Shoveled the roof again this AM.    Yesterday's warm-up, while I skied seems to have helped significantly.  But with all these storms that just keep coming, I'll stay a little apprehensive.


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## drjeff (Feb 8, 2011)

I broke shovel #2 of the season yesterday


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## billski (Feb 12, 2011)

I learned a new ladder trick today.  When up on the ladder at the roof level admiring our lovely ice dams, the base of the ladder slipped as the ice/snow settled further.  I fell backwards and my feet were caught on the ladder rungs.  I was hanging upside down.  I quickly understood what use stomach crunches are!  A few scrapes later and I'm good for skiing on Sunday!


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 12, 2011)

billski said:


> I learned a new ladder trick today.  When up on the ladder at the roof level admiring our lovely ice dams, the base of the ladder slipped as the ice/snow settled further.  I fell backwards and my feet were caught on the ladder rungs.  I was hanging upside down.  I quickly understood what use stomach crunches are!  A few scrapes later and I'm good for skiing on Sunday!



 Bill -----------------b careful man ----- geez  you DON"T need another bad fall -- glad u r OK

 But chill Bill , it  Ain't worth it,  that 's what homeowners Ins . is for


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## Euler (Feb 12, 2011)

billski said:


> I learned a new ladder trick today.  When up on the ladder at the roof level admiring our lovely ice dams, the base of the ladder slipped as the ice/snow settled further.  I fell backwards and my feet were caught on the ladder rungs.  I was hanging upside down.  I quickly understood what use stomach crunches are!  A few scrapes later and I'm good for skiing on Sunday!



Holy chit!  That could have quickly put an end to your ski season.  On TGR they're worrying about sketchy terrain and avalanche danger.  Over here we just fall off ladders


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## billski (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks for the support guys.  I'm just that sort of person.  We already have an insurance claim in, it's into the five figures.  I don't do much other than throw nylons full of CaCl  up there and dig out fire hydrants.  What do they say, most accidents occur within five miles of home?  I guess I should go as far away as possible!

Now, don't go tellin' my wife on me...  That would definitely put an end to the season...


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 25, 2011)

anyway to prevent ice dams??  go gutterless?? remove leaf guards? place socks in the gutters before the snow.ice..


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## billski (Feb 25, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> anyway to prevent ice dams??  go gutterless?? remove leaf guards? place socks in the gutters before the snow.ice..



None of that will work.  You gotta keep your roof cold - ventilation and insulation.


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## o3jeff (Feb 25, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> anyway to prevent ice dams??  go gutterless?? remove leaf guards? place socks in the gutters before the snow.ice..



Remove the snow from the roof after it snows, or at least the bottom few feet that you can reach.


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## noski (Feb 25, 2011)

billski said:


> None of that will work.  You gotta keep your roof cold - ventilation and insulation.


+1, and rake off snow from edges of your roof whenever you can. I have the interior damage to back that up... this summer the attic gets stripped of dead insulation, receives blown-in cellulose and better ventilation.


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## billski (Feb 25, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> Remove the snow from the roof after it snows, or at least the bottom few feet that you can reach.



I found the hard way that is very dangerous.  It just pushed the ice dam further up the roof, and still wicked under the shingles, making even more of the house leak.


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## skijay (Feb 25, 2011)

Here is what my contractor did for me back in 2001 when the roof was replaced:

1.  My attic was not properly vented thus causing the shingles to curl.  In 12 yrs the addition's curled and where the original 21 year old shingles were also curling but not as bad.
2. My roof contractor used a 6 foot ice and water barrier where 3 feet is the code.  He said that this is what he does for all of the homes he shingles. I do have a ranch with 4 foot overhangs.  He also put drip edging around the entire perimeter.  I did get ridge vents across the entire house (both sections).  I do have a small (by today's McMansion standards) 2000 Sq Ft ranch. 
3. I do have an ice dam on the north side that is about 2 feet up the shingles, so far no leaks. I think that is normal back there as I usually have the ice like this but never saw how far it crept up the roof until this season when I shoveled it and noticed it.  The front of my house had no ice damming, even before I shoveled the 2+ feet of snow.
4.  The trade off to a well insulated house & properly ventilated attic = the snow does not melt= mass weight up there=me taking a day off from work to shovel.


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