# Where is the STEEPEST GROOMER in the east?



## deepsouthmafia (Oct 13, 2017)

I’ve got a need for speed.  What do you reccomend?


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## Smellytele (Oct 13, 2017)

We have had this discussion a few times. The rumor at Gore is mentioned often within these discussions.


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## Jully (Oct 13, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> We have had this discussion a few times. The rumor at Gore is mentioned often within these discussions.



Agreed. Upper Gondiline and Nitro at Sugarloaf are up there too. Nitro is mad short though.


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## machski (Oct 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Agreed. Upper Gondiline and Nitro at Sugarloaf are up there too. Nitro is mad short though.


Agree with these.  In the rare event lower Ovation gets groomed at K, that is up there.   Believe it or not, Loon has a good one (well 2 actually) with Angel Street and Ripsaw on South.  Both are routinely groomed, start at South and enjoy ripping Ripsaw for a good hour on perfect carpet, even weekends, first thing.  Vortex at Sunday River is often groomed and is fun though straight. 

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## ironhippy (Oct 13, 2017)

Ha, someone actually listened to Greg!


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2017)

Purna at Hunter is up there.


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## ss20 (Oct 13, 2017)

While certainly not the steepest, if you want constant steep pitch the front side of Jiminy Peak is nice.

One of these at Killington will usually get groomed- Outer Limits, Ovation, or Big Dipper.  All in addition to Cascade which is groomed regularly.


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## skiberg (Oct 13, 2017)

How about Avalanche at Cannon. Got to have one of the longest steepest continuous fall lines.


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## urungus (Oct 13, 2017)

ss20 said:


> One of these at Killington will usually get groomed- Outer Limits, Ovation, or Big Dipper.  All in addition to Cascade which is groomed regularly.



Isn’t Big Dipper a gladed run?  Not sure how often it gets groomed, LOL.   Do you mean Double Dipper ?


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## skiberg (Oct 13, 2017)

The only reasonable way to consider this is an actual trail of some distance and not just a short steep shot on a particular trail. Granted, I am not interested in debating what that means, but I think we can all get the picture. In other words, White Heat does not count. One steep section, the rest of length of trail is blue/black.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> We have had this discussion a few times. *The rumor at Gore is mentioned often within these discussions.*



Funny.  I've don't recall seeing this thread topic before, but as soon as I read the title I was thinking, The Rumor at Gore.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Agreed. Upper Gondiline and Nitro at Sugarloaf are up there too. Nitro is mad short though.



Those would be what I was thinking.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 13, 2017)

Thread title should be changed to:  Steep Northeast trails that should never be groomed


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2017)

This webpage quantifies it a bit.  The east is actually fairly impressively represented in terms of steeps.

Even mighty Plattekill makes the "longest steeps" list with an entry and a_ "virtually entire length"_ footnote.

http://www.skibum.net/do-it-up/comparing-steepness-of-ski-trails/


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## MadPatSki (Oct 13, 2017)

Off the top of my head.

White Nitro at Sugarloaf is one of the steepest groomed run I've skied. 

Others in that category in no particular order:

Super S at Mt Ste. Anne
La Charlevoix at Le Massif
Upper Vertige (when groomed) at Tremblant
Lower Ovation at Killington
Rumor (when groomed) at Gore
Upper Skyward and Niagara pitch at Whiteface
Upper FIS at Smuggs
Upper Avalanche at Cannon
White Heat and Vortex (when groomed) at Sunday River
Top of CanAm at Jay


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## Jully (Oct 13, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This webpage quantifies it a bit.  The east is actually fairly impressively represented in terms of steeps.
> 
> Even mighty Plattekill makes the "longest steeps" list with an entry and a_ "virtually entire length"_ footnote.
> 
> http://www.skibum.net/do-it-up/comparing-steepness-of-ski-trails/



Interesting site. I think the creator might be an eastern skier. He doesn't claim to have a complete list, just the popular trails. I feel like the west should far out number the east, except for a few high profile eastern trails.

I never thought of Cannon's Front 5 as that steep (at least compared to other trails in ME and VT), but this has Avalanche at 31 degrees, same as Gondi Extension at SL for 500'. It must just be the pucker factor that you get standing at SL versus looking into Echo Lake at Cannon.

Loon isn't on the list at all too. Might have been made before their south peak expansion (the website looks old) or Ripsaw/the east basin trails don't have the same sustained pitch.

Also, Purna at Hunter isn't listed, but Westway is. Is this reasonable, Hunter people? I've never been so I can't comment.


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Interesting site. I think the creator might be an eastern skier. He doesn't claim to have a complete list, just the popular trails. I feel like the west should far out number the east, except for a few high profile eastern trails.
> 
> I never thought of Cannon's Front 5 as that steep (at least compared to other trails in ME and VT), but this has Avalanche at 31 degrees, same as Gondi Extension at SL for 500'. It must just be the pucker factor that you get standing at SL versus looking into Echo Lake at Cannon.
> 
> ...



They both are steep, but I have only seen Westway groomed once.


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## ceo (Oct 13, 2017)

If you've a need for speed, then how steep or well-groomed it is can't be the only criterion. I wouldn't recommend straightlining White Nitro if you're fond of all of your limbs, for instance.

On the other hand, Avalanche is longer, nearly as steep and has a nice long runout, so you can pull some serious velocity, depending from how high up you're brave enough to point'em straight down. (Start high enough and you can get all the way to the tram without poling.)


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## Jully (Oct 13, 2017)

ceo said:


> If you've a need for speed, then how steep or well-groomed it is can't be the only criterion. I wouldn't recommend straightlining White Nitro if you're fond of all of your limbs, for instance.
> 
> On the other hand, Avalanche is longer, nearly as steep and has a nice long runout, so you can pull some serious velocity, depending from how high up you're brave enough to point'em straight down. (Start high enough and you can get all the way to the tram without poling.)



Definitely the vast majority of these trails should not be straightlined haha. 

I saw someone try to straightline White Heat at SR last winter. They made it past the headwall (after almost colliding with me) and then launched off one of the rollers near the bottom right after the intersection of Little White Cap. They went about 50 feet forward into the next roller. I was appalled, annoyed, and worried for the poor fool all at the same time.


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Definitely the vast majority of these trails should not be straightlined haha.
> 
> I saw someone try to straightline White Heat at SR last winter. They made it past the headwall (after almost colliding with me) and then launched off one of the rollers near the bottom right after the intersection of Little White Cap. They went about 50 feet forward into the next roller. I was appalled, annoyed, and worried for the poor fool all at the same time.



Evolution was at work there.....


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## Jully (Oct 13, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> Evolution was at work there.....



Haha exactly. Especially when I saw him about 30 minutes later skiing the trail again! He was making very cautious and unbalanced skidding turns down the headwall. I was impressed with his devotion.


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Haha exactly. Especially when I saw him about 30 minutes later skiing the trail again! He was making very cautious and unbalanced skidding turns down the headwall. I was impressed with his devotion.



You should have filmed it for Jerry of the Day!


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## deadheadskier (Oct 13, 2017)

ceo said:


> If you've a need for speed, then how steep or well-groomed it is can't be the only criterion. I wouldn't recommend straightlining White Nitro if you're fond of all of your limbs, for instance.
> 
> On the other hand, Avalanche is longer, nearly as steep and has a nice long runout, so you can pull some serious velocity, depending from how high up you're brave enough to point'em straight down. (Start high enough and you can get all the way to the tram without poling.)



Avalanche might be the safest go fast trail in New England.  It just begs you to fly with how wide it is and the long run out at the bottom.


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## Whitey (Oct 13, 2017)

You'll have to go back into the memory banks because it's been about 3 yrs since anybody has skied them - But I always thought upper Tight Line at Saddleback was a pretty steep groomer.    I can remember reaching tuna speed there pretty quickly.    Also Family Secret was pretty steep there too. 

Hoping that in a couple of months, or maybe a little over a year, I'll be back to test my memory of those runs. . .


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## Not Sure (Oct 13, 2017)

http://www.hillmap.com/

My favorite site for exploring steeps .Click on paths and drop two spots,measures angle and distance between. A couple places Bear Creek and Montage in Pa. 26-27 degrees , while short they are fun with some ice mixed in .

edit

Haven't been there but Blue Knob looks to have some bragging rights.
http://www.hillmap.com/m/ag1zfmhpbGxtYXAtaGRychULEghTYXZlZE1hcBiAgIC4hY_qCAw


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## Jully (Oct 13, 2017)

Whitey said:


> You'll have to go back into the memory banks because it's been about 3 yrs since anybody has skied them - But I always thought upper Tight Line at Saddleback was a pretty steep groomer.    I can remember reaching tuna speed there pretty quickly.    Also Family Secret was pretty steep there too.
> 
> Hoping that in a couple of months, or maybe a little over a year, I'll be back to test my memory of those runs. . .



Never thought TL was that steep compared to the neighboring mountains' options. It was steep, yeah, but def not the steepest groomer in the East.

Always enjoyed the trail next to it a little more, Supervisor?


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## jimk (Oct 13, 2017)

White Nitro at Sugarloaf is a memorably steep Eastern groomer.  Don't they groom half of Outer Limits sometimes at Killington?  That would be a pretty long stretch of steep.  I've been on quite a few (65%?) of the trails mentioned in that Ski Bum piece.  Glad to see High Rustler and  Pallavicini on the list.  Those are two memorably steep Western non-groomers I've been on.  Somewhere I had quite a few steeps photos of mine that I'd compiled.  Lost a lot of stuff when Epicski went bust.
The following are not only steep, but some have good length to them.
Here's White Nitro at Sugarloaf:





Deep Temerity Chair at Aspen Highlands:




Lookout Below, Whiteface:




I've never skied the Slides at Whiteface.  Could of this day in March 2014, but didn't have avi gear:




Sorry, I've gotten away from groomed to ungroomed.  Here's a tight and not very revealing view of the steepness of Paradise at MRG.  This buddy is a very dynamic skier, I didn't capture that very well either:





I may try to put up some more photos in another post.


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## jimk (Oct 13, 2017)

One of the 20 or so steep runs in the Pallavicini section of Arapahoe Basin.  This batch of runs is served by a chair with about 1300' vertical.  David's Run, nearby in this area, is named after the guy who died on it due to an inbounds avi, unequivocal proof of steepness.





Renowned Corbet's Couloir, Jackson Hole.  Didn't ski it, but got a good, long, close look, which counts for partial credit





North Chute, right center in this photo between a rock and a hard place, from Snowbird, UT




Close up on North Chute, one of my favorite shots from last season because you can actually see my buddy's face  This is up high in a dang tight part of the chute.





Six Senses hike-to area on peak 6, Breckenridge:


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 13, 2017)

Many of you have followed the guidelines for this, but so many trails posted here are practically never groomed if ever. 

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## raisingarizona (Oct 13, 2017)

If speed is what you are after do you really want a long consistent steep pitch or more of something that has numerous steep head walls with good run-outs below them before dropping into another head wall? I prefer the latter personally. I love a good groomed run like that and has more of a roller coaster feel than a big long steep pitch. I'll take that long fall line pitch on a powder day though over the rolling trail of course. 

Tellurides front face and lift 9 area have some of the best steep groomers that I've experienced. It's hard to beat Bushwhacker, See Forever to Lookout or Milk Run to Telluride Trail imho. 

See Forever to Lookout being my favorite. The big right hander g-out at the bottom of Lookout is pretty rad.

If you are into the more natural straight lining thing then I'll add Zero G and Four Shadows in the Jackson side country. We actually have some good ones like that here in Arizona too.


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## 56fish (Oct 14, 2017)

Burke grooms.  Steepest, probably not.  Fast hill, for sure!


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## Smellytele (Oct 14, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Avalanche might be the safest go fast trail in New England.  It just begs you to fly with how wide it is and the long run out at the bottom.



My 16 year old son when he was 13 or 14 bombed  Avalanche from the cut-over from the zoomer chair. I stopped by the banshee cut-over, watched and nervously laughed with shock as he made it to the bottom.


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## crank (Oct 14, 2017)

I have skied some really steep groomers at Sugarloaf but I don't remember their names...must be the ones mentioned earlier.

Expo at Tremblant has been groomed every time I have been and parts are really quite steep.  

I find steep groomers fun, but boring after a while.  That is why I don't love Whiteface.

JimK I think I was with you on that Paradise run.


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## EPB (Oct 14, 2017)

Some other honorable mentions:
Ptarmigan and Tim's Trauma at Attitash have good sustained steep sections
Stein's Run at Sugarbush - not sure how often it's groomed, but it was the last time I was there.


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## sugarbushskier (Oct 14, 2017)

Love that Hillmap site....thanks.  Took a look at a few of my favs from Sugarbush and got 28-29 degrees on Upper FIS, Black Diamond and Steins.  Black Diamond never gets groomed but on VERY rare occasions Steins and Upper FIS get a haircut.


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## Newpylong (Oct 14, 2017)

Any steep run can be a "steep groomer" if groomed perhaps the spirit of the topic is more "steepest trails that are consistently groomed?"


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## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> Any steep run can be a "steep groomer" if groomed perhaps the spirit of the topic is more "steepest trails that are consistently groomed?"


Short of a 15 foot dump, I'm not sure you're getting a groomer up DJs. 

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## slatham (Oct 14, 2017)

About time someone mentioned Sugarbush. Stiens does get groomed a few times a year and qualifies for the list. Ripcord is groomed more often, and Organgrinder even more so than Ripcord (and usually one of the two is groomed). Those are all steep groomers for sure.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 14, 2017)

Liftline headwall at Stowe.  Usually the left side is groomed.


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## jimk (Oct 14, 2017)

crank said:


> I have skied some really steep groomers at Sugarloaf but I don't remember their names...must be the ones mentioned earlier.
> 
> Expo at Tremblant has been groomed every time I have been and parts are really quite steep.
> 
> ...



Yes you were, March 2013, MRG:




Scoping out the icefalls:




Crank again, this on a big groomer near summit of Lincoln Pk at Sugarbush, Mar 2013:




Another at Sugarbush, looking good.




Snowmass, Longshot, March 2016:


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## tumbler (Oct 15, 2017)

slatham said:


> About time someone mentioned Sugarbush. Stiens does get groomed a few times a year and qualifies for the list. Ripcord is groomed more often, and Organgrinder even more so than Ripcord (and usually one of the two is groomed). Those are all steep groomers for sure.



Steins gets groomed more often now almost once a week if not a little more. OG rarely groomed but Ripcord almost every night. Not grooming OG all the time takes pressure off Downspout.


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## crank (Oct 15, 2017)

But only 1 of these shots was taken on a groomer. lol



jimk said:


> Yes you were, March 2013, MRG:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## slatham (Oct 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Steins gets groomed more often now almost once a week if not a little more. OG rarely groomed but Ripcord almost every night. Not grooming OG all the time takes pressure off Downspout.



Wow didn't realize they were grooming Steins that often. The strategy with OG and Rip Cord makes sense given the issues with Death Spout.


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## Kleetus (Oct 15, 2017)

I would add Skyward or Cloudspin at WF to the list. A little less steep than others mentioned (Rumor at Gore, Ovation at K, White Heat at SR), but the vertical makes up for it. Long sustained steeps for sure that are normally groomed right out. 

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## cdskier (Oct 16, 2017)

slatham said:


> About time someone mentioned Sugarbush. Stiens does get groomed a few times a year and qualifies for the list. Ripcord is groomed more often, and Organgrinder even more so than Ripcord (and usually one of the two is groomed). Those are all steep groomers for sure.





tumbler said:


> Steins gets groomed more often now almost once a week if not a little more. OG rarely groomed but Ripcord almost every night. Not grooming OG all the time takes pressure off Downspout.





slatham said:


> Wow didn't realize they were grooming Steins that often. The strategy with OG and Rip Cord makes sense given the issues with Death Spout.



SB definitely reversed the grooming strategy for OG and Ripcord about I want to say 6 years ago or so give or take. Ripcord gets groomed for nearly every "weekend" day (so let's say Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights it will regularly see the winch cat). Mid-week it is groomed much less often (presumably to avoid running a heavy cat over it too often and compacting it into too much hard pack).

OG is groomed more on an as needed basis. They'll let it bump up but groom the bumps if they get too icy or sometimes before a storm to reset the trail.

Stein's does not see a groomer quite as much as tumbler suggests if the weather cooperates. It really depends on the conditions. They tend to try to let it bump up. Last year with the freeze/thaw cycles it had to be groomed a bit more than the year prior. Holiday periods are another time when they might groom it more often too.


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## benski (Oct 16, 2017)

Since Sugarbush switched from grooming OG to Ripcord both trails have had less icy. For some reason there was no snow above Spillsville on Organgrinder when it was groomed regularly.


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## deepsouthmafia (Oct 16, 2017)

HOLY SMOKES you guys, theres a lot for me to sift through here.  Nice work!  I was out all weekend, figured this would of dropped off the first page long ago.  
There appears to be a TON of good beta.  Super cool.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 16, 2017)

Whiteface might not have the single best "steep groomer" but it's got a lot of solid contenders including Hoyt's High, Skyward, Cloudspin, and some of the trails on Little Whiteface.

In addition plenty of less steep trails and run outs that aren't actually flat so you can ski the whole place pretty fast.

I can't think of a better area for ripping groomed vert all day.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 16, 2017)

crank said:


> *But* *only 1 of these shots was taken on a groomer. lol*



Glad it's not just me.   Need the, "This isn't relevant" meme.



bdfreetuna said:


> *Whiteface might not have the single best "steep groomer" but it's got a lot of solid contenders *including Hoyt's High, Skyward, Cloudspin, and some of the trails on Little Whiteface.



Yeah, I don't really know why anyone would seek out a bevy of steep groomers, but if that's what you're into, I think Whiteface would probably be the place to go.


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## mbedle (Oct 16, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Glad it's not just me.   Need the, "This isn't relevant" meme.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I don't really know why anyone would seek out a bevy of steep groomers, but if that's what you're into, I think Whiteface would probably be the place to go.



I know that we are a dying breed, but us hardbooters seek out the steep groomers. Actually, we seek out only groomers!!!


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 16, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I know that we are a dying breed, but us hardbooters seek out the steep groomers. Actually, we seek out only groomers!!!



You sure nothing to do with being from PA?


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## spring_mountain_high (Oct 16, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> You sure nothing to do with being from PA?



imma stand up for the keystone state here...anyone willing to ski 500ft of scratchy groomers under dim lights after work is hardcore...you have to REALLY love skiing to ski in PA


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## slatham (Oct 16, 2017)

spring_mountain_high said:


> imma stand up for the keystone state here...anyone willing ski 500ft of scratchy groomers under dim lights after work is hardcore...you have to REALLY love skiing to ski in PA



I agree. I learned in PA, SOUTHERN PA at that.


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## mbedle (Oct 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> You sure nothing to do with being from PA?



LOL - more to do with the fact that riding a carving board in hardboots is near impossible in the woods or bumps... I have a permanently bent pinky to testify to that fact...


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 17, 2017)

I can def see the appeal of long steep groomers on a directional snowboard. Pretty fun on skis too.

The steepest groomer I can remember last season was Prosser at Northstar on "Lookout Mountain". The steepest section of that was like Lower Ovation just much longer.

One of those trails you do not envy the Snowcat operators.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 17, 2017)

spring_mountain_high said:


> imma stand up for the keystone state here...anyone willing to ski 500ft of scratchy groomers under dim lights after work is hardcore...you have to REALLY love skiing to ski in PA



Dam Straight! 

I live 5 miles from ski Roundtop.  In the 17 years I've lived here, they have dramatically improved their snowmaking and grooming.  The place still gets criminally skied off, but its what I got.  

As long as it is cold, they can make snow and keep the surface respectable.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> One of those trails you do not envy the Snowcat operators.



That means you have never been in a winch cat before. Such a cool and scary feeling looking over the edge as the head wall falls away. Keep your feet planted on the dash to hold you in the seat.
At the bottom as you turn around thinking that was cool but now you just see a white wall lit up by the headlights. The ride up pins you back in the seat like the first hill of a roller coaster!

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## jimk (Oct 17, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> That means you have never been in a winch cat before. Such a cool and scary feeling looking over the edge as the head wall falls away. Keep your feet planted on the dash to hold you in the seat.
> At the bottom as you turn around thinking that was cool but now you just see a white wall lit up by the headlights. The ride up pins you back in the seat like the first hill of a roller coaster!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



Hawk, that was a great post that really got my attention.  I'm another who started my ski career in PA (Blue Knob, 1967).  Never taken a winch cat ride, but respect those with the cojones to do so.  There is a scary story about a mtn manager at BK back in the 70s and 80s, named Emmett if I remember correctly.  Blue Knob has one truly steep run called Extrovert.  The steep part of Extrovert lasts  for about 600 continuous vertical feet.  The full run has not been groomed in decades.  But back in the 70s and 80s Emmitt was known to run a groomer on it once in a great while.  One time he was grooming it and the groomer machine slipped out of control and slid for a good distance.  Believe Emmitt was unhurt, not sure about the machine, but that was the last time he tried to groom it.  

I heard that more recently a groomer manufacturer came to do a one-time demo and groomed Extrovert with a winch cat.

View looking down upper part of Extrovert:




another:





Degrees pitch  Extrovert @ Blue Knob, PA: 634 vertical over 1317 length = 25.71*.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 17, 2017)

Blue knob gets a lot of snow, doesn't it?


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 17, 2017)

jimk said:


> Hawk, that was a great post that really got my attention.  I'm another who started my ski career in PA (Blue Knob, 1967).  Never taken a winch cat ride, but respect those with the cojones to do so.  There is a scary story about a mtn manager at BK back in the 70s and 80s, named Emmett if I remember correctly.  Blue Knob has one truly steep run called Extrovert.  The steep part of Extrovert lasts  for about 600 continuous vertical feet.  The full run has not been groomed in decades.  But back in the 70s and 80s Emmitt was known to run a groomer on it once in a great while.  One time he was grooming it and the groomer machine slipped out of control and slid for a good distance.  Believe Emmitt was unhurt, not sure about the machine, but that was the last time he tried to groom it.
> 
> I heard that more recently a groomer manufacturer came to do a one-time demo and groomed Extrovert with a winch cat.
> 
> ...




I managed the ski shop at Jiminy Peak for 6 yrs.  I got introduced to the guy who winches 2nd shift one year.  He took me out for a ride and it was awesome.  He was real cool and told me what nights he worked, and if I ever wanted to go for more rides to just meet him at the tops of the runs he was on, throw my skis in the woods, and hop in.  On nights I was out skiing and conditions were less than desirable I would go meet him and ride along for a while.  I have ridden for all the front face trails.
Using the http://www.hillmap.com/ link posted earlier in this thread, I found Jerrico at Jiminy to have a sustained top to bottom pitch of 25 degrees over .35 miles and 800 ft of vert, and the steepest spot I found was 31 degrees.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 18, 2017)

jimk said:


> I heard that more recently a groomer manufacturer came to do a one-time demo and groomed Extrovert with a winch cat.



When the snow is great extrovert is probably one of the toughest runs in PA.  However, its usually an icy, mogully mess.  With the weather we get now it rarely looks like the pictures Jimk posted.  

My local hill roundtop bought a winch cat to help with their steep terrain as well as other places when they want to move a bunch of snow around.  It would certainly help if Blue Knob had one!

Its unfortunate Blue Knob always seems to be run on a shoe string budget.  It has the potential to be a really good place.


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## slatham (Oct 18, 2017)

I grew up skiing SoPA and BK was the ultimate day trip as it had more snow and way steeper terrain than Roundtop or Liberty. While Extrovert wasn't open very often (no snowmaking) when it was it was a real treat, and a legitimate, big mountain steep trail. 

I cannot believe someone took a groomer down it without a winch. The drop offs after crossing Lower Rt 66 and High Hopes were pretty extreme, especially the way the snow build up on the sides of those narrow trails. Also, I don't think you could winch it all the way down from a winch pole at the top - the cable could get tangled in the two chairs that cross?

As a side note, I have never, ever seen such a pile of ICE - perfect, 100% BLUE ice - created by a snow gun as I saw at BK once circa mid '70's. And I've seen a lot of bad snowmaking after 48 years of Eastern skiing, but nothing even comes close...


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## Hawk (Oct 18, 2017)

slatham said:


> Wow didn't realize they were grooming Steins that often. The strategy with OG and Rip Cord makes sense given the issues with Death Spout.




Yup, steins has become a favorite of Winn Smith so he has it groomed all the time.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm looking at the map and photos of trails @ Blue Knob. It even has a "bowl". I am really considering bringing my skis next time I head to PA in the winter. This looks like better steeps and trees than Berkshire East and about the same vert.

Learn something new today!


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 18, 2017)

Tuna its good. BUT you have to hit when the snow is good.  Otherwise snowmaking and grooming are very far behind basically every place in PA.


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## mbedle (Oct 18, 2017)

As far as PA goes, Blue Knob is a really special place, but as someone said, it was always run on a limited budget and is pretty outdated. The good thing is that is got bought by  some guys from Pittsburgh and hopefully they will start to invest some money in the place. What I also didn't know is the resort has 1,385 acres of which 420 acres are on the state land. The new owners applied for a 2.5 million grant to start getting some of the issues addressed at the resort. Use to rent one of the cabin on the slopes every year with some friends from State College. Always a good time there.


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## Jully (Oct 18, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Yup, steins has become a favorite of Winn Smith so he has it groomed all the time.



Win likes groomers?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Yup, steins has become a favorite of Winn Smith so he has it *groomed all the time.*



Just how Stein wouldn't have wanted it. lol

Last time I was at Sugarbush was early 2016, and Steins had huge moguls on it.


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## 56fish (Oct 19, 2017)

mbedle said:


> As far as PA goes, Blue Knob is a really special place, but as someone said, it was always run on a limited budget and is pretty outdated. The good thing is that is got bought by  some guys from Pittsburgh and hopefully they will start to invest some money in the place. What I also didn't know is the resort has 1,385 acres of which 420 acres are on the state land. The new owners applied for a 2.5 million grant to start getting some of the issues addressed at the resort.



The new owners are pretty bright and, the guy running the place, Scott Bender - is sharp.  Former ceo 7 Springs (tutored by HK Dupre), NSAA board.  Look for good stuff to happen fast.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2017)

It's too bad http://www.newenglandskihistory.com doesn't exist for Pennsylvania. I'm trying to find the history of Blue Knob -- because it looks like, on the trail map, there was a whole area to the left that's closed. Or else why would the map look like this? And I must say this is a beautiful map, really drives the imagination.


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## Domeskier (Oct 19, 2017)

I like that the trail map suggests that this extrovert trail is permanently bumped up.


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## urungus (Oct 19, 2017)

hillmap.com shows 30 degree pitch for top half of the Extrovert run at Blue Knob.  Very impressive, this is steeper than Outer Limits at Killington, or Hoyt’s High / Lookout Below at Whiteface.

Edit:  here’s the screenshot.  Slope is measured along faint blue line between the two small red dots


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2017)

Okay, look at this Stemboygan Bowl at Blue Knob... plain ole fun terrain




Looks like JimK has a lot of pics showing up on Google search, many of the better ones


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## andrec10 (Oct 19, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Okay, look at this Stemboygan Bowl at Blue Knob... plain ole fun terrain
> 
> View attachment 22792
> 
> ...



All of 30 feet....


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> All of 30 feet....



Reminds me of some of the smaller bowls at Heavenly to be quite honest (under the bottom of Powderbowl lift). You can find a few runs similar to that in Northern VT. Replace the hardwoods with evergreens and that's world class skiing.


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## Tin (Oct 19, 2017)

Just straight line above it and send it. Not that big and a perfect landing.


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## cdskier (Oct 19, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Okay, look at this Stemboygan Bowl at Blue Knob... plain ole fun terrain
> 
> View attachment 22792
> 
> ...



Are those actually people's houses right on the slopes like that?


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## jimk (Oct 19, 2017)

More Blue Knob, PA photos, all from Feb 2010, best conditions in my 50 years there.  When it's good it's really good, when it's bad it's bad for years at a time  I too am hopeful about the new ownership.  Old guys were nice, but aged and ready for relief.

Nice glade/run called East Wall Glade, about as steep as Extrovert, but much shorter.

Side shot of upper third of Extrovert, narrow run below under chair is challenging too, called Rt 66.

Real narrow trail called Shortway, rarely see it with this much snow, it's an all natural trail.

Another shot of Stembogen Bowl, we stayed in house on left one time about ten years ago.

Deer Run, similar aspect as Extrovert, but slightly different location on the mtn and less steep with shorter fall line.  Not groomed in this pic, but usually is groomed.


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## jimk (Oct 19, 2017)

steep groomer at Sugar Bowl, CA

whiteface steep groomer

wildcat steep groomer under HSQ

there are a few very steep groomers on front face of MSA, Quebec

some good groomers from top of Pico


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## yeggous (Oct 19, 2017)

jimk said:


> steep groomer at Sugar Bowl, CA
> View attachment 22798
> whiteface steep groomer
> View attachment 22799
> ...



Any interest in contributing to unofficial guide of Blue Knob that I stubbed out? I've made a lot of progress building out the guides within New England, but the Mid-Atlantic is a horse of a different color. I've never been, and know little myself. And our contributors are New England centric.


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## mbedle (Oct 20, 2017)

Does anyone know the history of Blue Knob. I know the resort was built on the land of the former AFB, just wondering who and what decided to subdivide all the land with 1000 of homesites. Does the resort own the condo's? It was always really odd to be driving around the mountain on the way up to the resort and seeing abandon homes along side the road.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's too bad http://www.newenglandskihistory.com doesn't exist for Pennsylvania. I'm trying to find the history of Blue Knob -- because it looks like, on the trail map, there was a whole area to the left that's closed. Or else why would the map look like this? And I must say this is a beautiful map, really drives the imagination.
> 
> View attachment 22790



I was wondering that too.


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## jimk (Oct 20, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Does anyone know the history of Blue Knob. I know the resort was built on the land of the former AFB, just wondering who and what decided to subdivide all the land with 1000 of homesites. Does the resort own the condo's? It was always really odd to be driving around the mountain on the way up to the resort and seeing abandon homes along side the road.



Sorry for thread hijack.
Blue Knob is the second highest mtn in PA, elev 3120'.  The region around Blue Knob is actually more mountainous looking than the highest peak in PA, Mt Davis, which is sort of an undistinguished rolling hillside in the Laurel Highlands near Seven Springs ski area in far western PA.  The Blue Knob ski area was created in 1962 on the site of a former a USAF radar station that operated from 1952-1961.  When I first skied there in 1967 several old USAF buildings on the summit of the mtn were being repurposed as motel rooms and work spaces.  Maybe a few sheds, concrete foundations and perhaps a garage structure are about all that is left of the USAF station now.

There are several issues with Blue Knob that have stymied its development over the years.  The area was relatively remote in the '60s and '70s and never attracted investors with enough capital to do a really thorough development job.  A big chunk of the mtn including much of the actual ski terrain is state park land that the resort leases and this also limited development.  Condos and private homes have been built on scattered parcels of private land near the slopes, but the fractured land availability lessened the potential to cohesively develop and profitize the resort.  The ski area took advantage of a summit road and buildings that it inherited from the USAF, but this was a double edged sword because as one of the more northern "upside down" ski areas in the East the weather and road conditions are sometimes less than user-friendly.  Also, an important function of the state owned land is that it's a watershed providing a source of water for neighboring jurisdictions and that has sometimes put a crimp on the availability of water for the resort to use for snowmaking. 


All this has caused the resort to chronically struggle with finances and over the years it has been eclipsed by other mid-Atlantic mtns such as Seven Springs, Snowshoe, Massanutten, Wisp, the three SnowTime resorts in south-central PA, many Pocono resorts, etc.  Having said all that, the terrain (1072' lift served vertical) at Blue Knob is comparatively challenging/superior, both the designated trails and the many gladed areas.  This has always kept it on folks radar screens (pun intended), especially with advanced skiers/boarders.  No doubt, the big fun of the burly terrain, especially all the glades, is only revealed in good natural snow conditions.  Much of the terrain between the trails is skied when there's good snow.  It's a little like Plattekill, Magic and MRG in that regard.  

Here is an excellent history of the ski area by the Blue Knob Ski Patrol:  http://www.blueknobskipatrol.org/detailed-historical-facts.html

My parents owned a vacation home about one mile from Blue Knob from ~1972-1987.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I must say this is a beautiful map, really drives the imagination.



Yeah, I like that map much better than the guy's maps who does 90% of ski areas maps.


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## ss20 (Oct 20, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, I like that map much better than the guy's maps who does 90% of ski areas maps.



Is that sarcasm or no...because I have SEVERAL James Niehues maps hanging up as art in my house :-D

Mount Snow and Whistler I have as full-size.  I have a small Killington poster on loan to a friend.  I have a small Loon one somewhere in my house, not too sure where atm.  There's a great New Hampshire scene showing all of the Ski 93 NH areas I have as a fridge magnet.  All done by Niehues.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 20, 2017)

Otto Schniebs apparently designed the Blue Knob trails, or at least the original ones.

James Niehues maps are great, obviously, but would he have painted this mountain as well? Who knows. Whoever did, did a nice job.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 20, 2017)

ss20 said:


> *Is that sarcasm *or no...because I have SEVERAL James Niehues maps hanging up as art in my house :-D



No, I just think whoever did that Blue Knob map, it's better artwork.


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## mbedle (Oct 20, 2017)

I am pretty sure that the Blue Knob trail map is mostly computer generated. There is basically only a couple of different trees that have been copy and pasted over the entire map. I am sure an artist was involved, but its not something that you can really compare to Niehues.


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## ViciousV609 (Oct 22, 2017)

Ive boarded outer limits groomed many times also super star. 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 23, 2017)

ViciousV609 said:


> Ive boarded outer limits groomed many times also super star.


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## mikec142 (Oct 24, 2017)

I'm not sure of the actual pitch, but Rumor at Gore seems steeper than Stein's or Ripcord at Sugarbush.  Rumor is one of those trails that you sit and watch from below and see people slide out of control for 100+ feet.


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## slatham (Oct 24, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> I'm not sure of the actual pitch, but Rumor at Gore seems steeper than Stein's or Ripcord at Sugarbush.  Rumor is one of those trails that you sit and watch from below and see people slide out of control for 100+ feet.



FIS at Sugarbush is steeper than Steins and Rip Cord......


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> I'm not sure of the actual pitch, but Rumor at Gore seems steeper than Stein's or Ripcord at Sugarbush.  Rumor is one of those trails that you sit and watch from below and see people slide out of control for 100+ feet.



Having skied all of those, I'd say Rumor is definitely steeper. I don't visit Gore much, but is Rumor often groomed? I've seen it mentioned several times in this thread but never really thought of it as a groomer in my mind. When I last skied it, it was all bumped up (it was the spring though, so not sure if that's more typical or atypical for that trail).


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## cdskier (Oct 24, 2017)

slatham said:


> FIS at Sugarbush is steeper than Steins and Rip Cord......



Yes, although rarely groomed these days (which is just fine with me).


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## tumbler (Oct 24, 2017)

I believe the 2nd pitch on Ripcord is the steepest at SB.  It also has the high pucker factor when groomed to flat ice and dull edges...That is where you see people slide all the way down.


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## ViciousV609 (Oct 24, 2017)

Ovation is steep when its open

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## mikec142 (Oct 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Having skied all of those, I'd say Rumor is definitely steeper. I don't visit Gore much, but is Rumor often groomed? I've seen it mentioned several times in this thread but never really thought of it as a groomer in my mind. When I last skied it, it was all bumped up (it was the spring though, so not sure if that's more typical or atypical for that trail).



Not so sure about Rumor and grooming.  I typically ski there once a year and when it's open, it's been groomed.  The bigger issue is that it's not open that often.  The headwall is nuts and often very icy.  Due to the pitch, it's hard to keep snow on the headwall so they just close the trail.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> Not so sure about Rumor and grooming.  I typically ski there once a year and when it's open, it's been groomed.  The bigger issue is that it's not open that often.  *The headwall is nuts and often very icy.  Due to the pitch, it's hard to keep snow on the headwall so they just close the trail.*



A few years ago I was standing at the top of the trail and just adjusting my goggles or something, and my edges gave out (this is just from standing there mind you), and by the time I could stop myself I must have been 1/3 down.  Of course, The Rumor was crazy icy that day and I have no idea why I decided to ski it anyway, but that gives an idea that the top portion is fairly steep.


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## mikec142 (Oct 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> A few years ago I was standing at the top of the trail and just adjusting my goggles or something, and my edges gave out (this is just from standing there mind you), and by the time I could stop myself I must have been 1/3 down.  Of course, The Rumor was crazy icy that day and I have no idea why I decided to ski it anyway, but that gives an idea that the top portion is fairly steep.



I've found myself in that same situation more than once.  Every time Rumor is open I see people get in way over their head on that trail.  I rarely ski it anymore as the conditions have to be perfect to enjoy it.


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## heiusa (Oct 25, 2017)

Outerlimits @ Killington, VT: 
1002 vertical over 1892 length = 29.91*. 
Boasts to be the steepest and longest run in New England.
626 vertical over 1064 length = 30.47*.
280 vertical over 432 length = 32.95*.
125 vertical over 154 length = 39.07*. 
This goes to prove that Outerlimits has some very steep sections.

Lower Ovation @ Killington, VT: 468 vertical over 823 length = 29.62*
353 vertical over 553 length = 32.55*
146 vertical over 190 length = 37.54*.
113 vertical over 127 length = 41.66*. 
95 vertical over 98 length = 44.11*. That's some pretty steep stuff.

Upper FIS @ Sugarbush, VT: 
420 vertical over 741 length = 29.54*
174 vertical over 264 length = 33.39*
Black Diamond @ Sugarbush, VT: 
473 vertical over 832 length = 29.62*
178 vertical over 264 length = 33.99*. 
As a liftline, it is much narrower than Upper FIS and slightly steeper and longer. 
They run side by side.
Rumble @ Sugarbush, VT: 
735 vertical over 1723 length = 23.1*
224 vertical over 370 length = 31.19*

Ski Area	Trail Name	      (Degrees)	Length Vertical 
Gore, NY	The Rumor	28°	        615′	  284′	top half
Gore, NY	The Rumor	25°	       1335′	  566′	entire route
Killington	Double Dipper	31°	       1207′	  625′
Killington	Outer Limits	29.5°       2241′	1105′	virtually entire length


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## heiusa (Oct 26, 2017)

Some facts I found on the internet:

Outerlimits @ Killington, VT: 1002 vertical over 1892 length = 29.91*. 
Lower Ovation @ Killington, VT: 468 vertical over 823 length = 29.62
Upper FIS @ Sugarbush, VT: 420 vertical over 741 length = 29.54*
Rumble @ Sugarbush, VT: 735 vertical over 1723 length = 23.1*
The Rumor @ Gore, NY: 566′ vertical over 1335′ length = 25°


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