# The most EPIC KILLINGTON = FAIL of all time?



## Highway Star (Apr 27, 2010)

Just curious what you think has been the biggest K-Fail....this season?  This past decade?  Ever?

Noteable low points include ASC running out of money, not developing Parker's Gore in the 1980's, closing lower sunrise, canceling lifetime passes......

.....but I have to say, closing a week earlier than promised, one of the earliest closings ever, when there's plenty of snow remaining and possiblity of a foot of natural snow.....really?


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Just curious what you think has been the biggest K-Fail....this season?  This past decade?  Ever?
> 
> Noteable low points include ASC running out of money, not developing Parker's Gore in the 1980's, closing lower sunrise, canceling lifetime passes......
> 
> .....but I have to say, closing a week earlier than promised, one of the earliest closings ever, when there's plenty of snow remaining and possiblity of a foot of natural snow.....really?



K did a good job with what they were given. Now STFU & come back when the season starts and stop with ur mother$ucking formulars etc!!


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## o3jeff (Apr 27, 2010)

I thought they did a great job.


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## thorski (Apr 27, 2010)

Brownsville Brooklyn said:


> K did a good job with what they were given. Now STFU & come back when the season starts and stop with ur mother$ucking formulars etc!!



They did a good job with what they were given??? Are you on crack???
They are getting a foot of snow. If they don't open for this weekend it will be the biggest failure of the decade.


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## JerseyJoey (Apr 27, 2010)

This early closing is right up there with their worst mistakes.


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## arik (Apr 27, 2010)

HS and BB don't get along?!


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## Black Phantom (Apr 27, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> This early closing is right up there with their worst mistakes.



Brutal decision made by the ladyboys @ KSRP/Powdr.


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## JerseyJoey (Apr 27, 2010)

arik said:


> HS and BB don't get along?!



Lover's quarrel.


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 27, 2010)

thorski said:


> They did a good job with what they were given??? Are you on crack???
> They are getting a foot of snow. If they don't open for this weekend it will be the biggest failure of the decade.



JC's dad told him to "run it like a business". i know where hes coming from. they will sell k within the next 3-5 years so dont worry....not opening this weekend means nothing to k....


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 27, 2010)

arik said:


> HS and BB don't get along?!



not at all. HS had his crackers broken for years on kzone by all the kzone wackos not me. out of know where he posts something about me starting a fight with a friend of his or making a remark to someone at a restaurant....wtf? im usually too tired & wasted to even get off the couch much less running around k $ucking with people....


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## skiadikt (Apr 27, 2010)

this is up there. let's see - they close because the "forecast" is unfavorable for skiing instead they get 6-12" and then perfect weather for the weekend. couldn't have scripted it. lotsa egg on their face with this one.


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## Riverskier (Apr 27, 2010)

Don't know much about the history of Killington, but hard to imagine a much bigger screw up than closing early due to "weather and conditions" after promising to stay open, when the coverage is top to bottom and the forecast calls for a foot of snow and then sunny 60 degree weather for the weekend. Even for those unaffetced, it certainly doesn't make Killington sound like an enticing place to visit in the future.


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## WJenness (Apr 27, 2010)

NWS said:
			
		

> Late Afternoon: Rain and snow likely. Cloudy, with a steady temperature around 37. Northwest wind around 8 mph. Chance of precipitation is 60%. Total daytime snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
> 
> Tonight: Snow. Low around 33. Northwest wind around 6 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 3 inches possible.
> 
> ...



I can understand them not wanting to be open with that forecast... </snark>

-w


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## thorski (Apr 27, 2010)

Brownsville Brooklyn said:


> JC's dad told him to "run it like a business". i know where hes coming from. they will sell k within the next 3-5 years so dont worry....not opening this weekend means nothing to k....



Then i hope in 3-5 years the guys who run sundown can make enough money to buy K.


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## gmcunni (Apr 27, 2010)

> Saturday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 73.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2010)

definitely some of the trail design as it's irreversible


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## o3jeff (Apr 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


>



So we'll see you out on the bike?


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## RootDKJ (Apr 27, 2010)

The Decapitation of Rams Head...

Edit:  I posted that before seeing the nws forecast. Not opening because of bad weather is pretty fvcging lame!  :lol: Bluebird day, how miserable


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## pepperdawg (Apr 27, 2010)

Free Da Dis!!!!!!

BAN HS from the inerwebz.....

That is all.


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## riverc0il (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't know about most epic fail of all time. But from a customer service, publicity, and marketing perspective, they couldn't do much worse. In all likely hood, they will have better snow and better conditions during their original projected closing date than their actual closing date despite their reason for closing being conditions. 

That is beyond having egg on the face... that is like having a goose sit on Killington's face and lay rapid fire golden eggs down its throat as Killington tries to decapitate it.


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2010)

all time - no way.  What they've done to the BMMC in the past few years is a bigger fail in my book

Reality check here folks.  *If* they were to be open this weekend, you'd be talking about maybe 1,000 people there (and I'm guessing that a very good chunk of them are passholders already and likely to have bought their K pass for next year at the early discount price)  The day ticket people more than likely just use K as an early/late season way to augment the season of their own "home hill" and their purchase/lack of purchase of a K pass for next year not wieghing on their operation (or lack there of) this coming weekend(and I think that the logical potential K passholder is more impressed by K's early season snowmaking firepower, at a time of the year when there's much less other outside activities to do than in late April/May.  Heck there may very well be more folks at Tucks this weekend than would have been at K had they been spinning a lift

Aside from maybe a thousand or so, folks with a serious ski-related intra-web addiction (read as AZ/KZ members   ) - very few who would actually choose to voice their displeasure when push to come to shove in the way that really matters to K, economically, while not K's greatest moment by any means, this is by no means a big deal or an epic fail


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## riverc0il (Apr 27, 2010)

The one reason (perhaps only reason) I can see this not being an epic fail is that the Killington pass holders are a glutton for punishment. As much as the Killington faithful like to rip on the place... they are still indeed faithful and will still buy a pass even if they don't like what the mountain did. This may be because of real estate commitments. But you don't see a wholesale shift to other mountains... you see the same pass holders complaining every year.

But how many people considering their season pass choices that are not committed to Killington are watching this debate closely? I would bet a significant few. I bet Killington would have made a generous profit had they opened this weekend (especially if it was anything like last weekend... probably SIGNIFICANTLY more crowded given the new snow!). Instead, they will likely lose some pass sales as some folks question K's commitment to early and late season. Especially when they see places like Jay going for it and the Boyne pass offering the best of both late and early season. You can't possibly have a longer season than Boyne's Gold with SR and SL.

And ultimately, it is just one more thing everyone can pick on Killington for. If they waited to make the decision (which they would have decided to open if they had waited) and closed on their scheduled date... their would have been the usual annual grumbling about how "it used to be" and people disappointed that they can only expect the first weekend of May. But instead, die hards are ripping them apart, and justly so, for bailing on their expected date prematurely.

They still could save themselves and reverse their decision ("Who could have guessed all that forecasted rain would suddenly be half a foot of fresh, WOW--original closing date IS ON!!!!") and salvaging both a profitable weekend and good will (and likely some pass sales). But I just don't see that happening. They probably laid off staff already and can't open to even run a bare bones operation, let alone when every powder hound in Ned England shows up.

Let's not forget, there are only two open locations in New England and the Loaf is a HAUL and Jay is a really long trip. Killington would be the only area close to metro areas and a no brainer. And let's not forget that Mount Washington is going to have high avi danger so earned turn skiers might be looking for lift serviced. This could be a big weekend for Killington. I bet Jet is going to be very crowded....


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## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2010)

drjeff said:


> you'd be talking about maybe 1,000 people there (and I'm guessing that a very good chunk of them are passholders already and likely to have bought their K pass for next year at the early discount price)



there was about that many there on Sunday even though the weather forecast was crap.  I was told Saturday was even busier.

500 day tickets is 20 Grand.  You can run 1 lift and be profitable at that figure.  As mentioned before, it takes a commitment from salaried managers who are sitting on their asses this time of year to all pitch in and help with the operations.


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 27, 2010)

thorski said:


> They did a good job with what they were given??? Are you on crack???
> They are getting a foot of snow. If they don't open for this weekend it will be the biggest failure of the decade.



I live here, at the 2,200' level, and I'm really looking hard for that foot of snow we're supposed to be getting.  Couldn't see much higher up than Snowshed most of the day (if that far) but upper Snowshed was merely dusted over.


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 27, 2010)

pepperdawg said:


> Free Da Dis!!!!!!
> 
> BAN HS from the inerwebz.....
> 
> That is all.



:grin::grin:


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 27, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> I live here, at the 2,200' level, and I'm really looking hard for that foot of snow we're supposed to be getting.  Couldn't see much higher up than Snowshed most of the day (if that far) but upper Snowshed was merely dusted over.



Bubba u got nothing better to do then crap all over kzone & now azone....gggggggggeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## WWF-VT (Apr 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Just curious what you think has been the biggest K-Fail....this season?  This past decade?  Ever?



The biggest fail is that Killington hasn't pissed you off enough so you never go back and quit bitching about the place


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## mondeo (Apr 27, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> there was about that many there on Sunday even though the weather forecast was crap. I was told Saturday was even busier.
> 
> 500 day tickets is 20 Grand. You can run 1 lift and be profitable at that figure. As mentioned before, it takes a commitment from salaried managers who are sitting on their asses this time of year to all pitch in and help with the operations.


Did over half leave by 2? Because I doubt there were 400 people there by the time I got there. I'd be surprised if there were 1000 people there Saturday, when it was nice.

Still, you don't say May 2 and then close because of lackluster ticket sales, one week early. Suck it up, close it Monday-Thursday, reopen for a marginal last weekend. That way people don't laugh when you advertise early November-early May again. Most epic though? Nah. Big scheme of things, just a stupid way to kill off a lot of goodwill generated through the season. Killing BMMC a few years ago is POWDR's biggest fail.


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 27, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> there was about that many there on Sunday even though the weather forecast was crap.  I was told Saturday was even busier.
> 
> 500 day tickets is 20 Grand.  You can run 1 lift and be profitable at that figure.  As mentioned before, it takes a commitment from salaried managers who are sitting on their asses this time of year to all pitch in and help with the operations.



Yea they could run 1 lift, but then they would have non-stop bitching about how only one lift was running.

500 tickets would not be sold.  Maybe 500 people show up, but most of them will have season passes, so your not getting that $20g's.


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## skiadikt (Apr 28, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Yea they could run 1 lift, but then they would have non-stop bitching about how only one lift was running.
> 
> 500 tickets would not be sold.  Maybe 500 people show up, but most of them will have season passes, so your not getting that $20g's.



spoke to an ambassador doing "greetings" on saturday and he was surprised by how many day ticket people showed up and how many had never skied k before. even sunday, maybe they sell 100-200 tickets. 

have you ever seen the mid-week "crowd" during mtn biking season. literally a handful of people. yet they run the k1 (probably a more expensive lift to run than supe) and open the base lodge. can't tell me that opening on a spring weekend when the product you already payed for is on the ground isn't more profitable than that.

in the end doesn't really matter, you do it because you promoted may 2 and because of the expectations you built with the core clientele you cater to and ultimately it's the right thing to do for them.


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 28, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> spoke to an ambassador doing "greetings" on saturday and he was surprised by how many day ticket people showed up and how many had never skied k before. even sunday, maybe they sell 100-200 tickets.
> 
> have you ever seen the mid-week "crowd" during mtn biking season. literally a handful of people. yet they run the k1 (probably a more expensive lift to run than supe) and open the base lodge. can't tell me that opening on a spring weekend when the product you already payed for is on the ground isn't more profitable than that.
> 
> in the end doesn't really matter, you do it because you promoted may 2 and because of the expectations you built with the core clientele you cater to and ultimately it's the right thing to do for them.



biggest failure at k is that xxxxxxx lives in k & hasnt been shot yet....what a douche bag!!


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## SkiDork (Apr 28, 2010)

wouldn't they make a bunch more money if they really cranked up the party, have a band out on the asphalt area they use as a deck, sell beer etc?


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 28, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> wouldn't they make a bunch more money if they really cranked up the party, have a band out on the asphalt area they use as a deck, sell beer etc?



thats how a "real" resort would do it....even Mxxxxxxxx could figure that out


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2010)

> biggest failure at k is that xxxxx lives in k & hasnt been shot yet....what a douche bag!!





> thats how a "real" resort would do it....even xxxxxxx could figure that out



Again, if you're having an issue with a member, work it out with them in person or via Email rather than trolling or flaming them on the boards.


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 28, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, if you're having an issue with a member, work it out with them in person or via Email rather than trolling or flaming them on the boards.



no problem. lots of people in k & kzone hate this idiot.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2010)

Brownsville Brooklyn said:


> no problem. lots of people in k & kzone hate this idiot.



:roll:  Sigh.  OK, back on topic.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 28, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> wouldn't they make a bunch more money if they really cranked up the party, have a band out on the asphalt area they use as a deck, sell beer etc?


That sounds like a lot of fun.


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## threecy (Apr 28, 2010)

How many of those X hundred ticket buyers were paying full price?  How many weren't using any sort of coupon?  How many were renting?  How many were buying lessons?

Late season is not as much of a cash cow as it may appear to be.  Disregarding the May date they advertised, if they thought they had a reasonable shot at making money, they'd still be open.  Obviously the snowstorm makes a difference, but what if temperatures had ended up a few degrees warmer?


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## Black Phantom (Apr 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> How many of those X hundred ticket buyers were paying full price?  How many weren't using any sort of coupon?  How many were renting?  How many were buying lessons?
> 
> Late season is not as much of a cash cow as it may appear to be.  Disregarding the May date they advertised, if they thought they had a reasonable shot at making money, they'd still be open.  Obviously the snowstorm makes a difference, but what if temperatures had ended up a few degrees warmer?



Handsome-

No instructors. Ticket prices are at a set rate. Seriously, rentals? You really are in the wrong crowd.

Looking like complete D*Bags to the community while attempting to push a real estate debacle down a towns throat= Epic Fail.


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 28, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> Handsome-
> 
> No instructors. Ticket prices are at a set rate. Seriously, rentals? You really are in the wrong crowd.
> 
> Looking like complete D*Bags to the community while attempting to push a real estate debacle down a towns throat= Epic Fail.



I agree!! get rid of powdr we need a new owner!!


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## drjeff (Apr 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> How many of those X hundred ticket buyers were paying full price?  How many weren't using any sort of coupon?  How many were renting?  How many were buying lessons?
> 
> Late season is not as much of a cash cow as it may appear to be.  Disregarding the May date they advertised, if they thought they had a reasonable shot at making money, they'd still be open.  Obviously the snowstorm makes a difference, but what if temperatures had ended up a few degrees warmer?



LOGICAL response



Black Phantom said:


> Handsome-
> 
> No instructors. Ticket prices are at a set rate. Seriously, rentals? You really are in the wrong crowd.
> 
> Looking like complete D*Bags to the community while attempting to push a real estate debacle down a towns throat= Epic Fail.



EMOTIONAL response

That's what's defining so much of this debate


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## Brownsville Brooklyn (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> LOGICAL response
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wheres Brooklyn, CT? i told a kid at sundown i was from brooklyn, CT he says with that accent you have no one will belive you


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## drjeff (Apr 28, 2010)

Brownsville Brooklyn said:


> wheres Brooklyn, CT? i told a kid at sundown i was from brooklyn, CT he says with that accent you have no one will belive you



Take Route 6 all the way to the RI border and then come back into CT about 5 miles.  Look for all the cows and you've found Brooklyn, CT


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## thorski (Apr 28, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> I live here, at the 2,200' level, and I'm really looking hard for that foot of snow we're supposed to be getting.  Couldn't see much higher up than Snowshed most of the day (if that far) but upper Snowshed was merely dusted over.



How is the shoveling going now bubba? The plows are out. :beer:
We live there too.


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## skiadikt (Apr 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> How many of those X hundred ticket buyers were paying full price?  How many weren't using any sort of coupon?  How many were renting?  How many were buying lessons?
> 
> Late season is not as much of a cash cow as it may appear to be.  Disregarding the May date they advertised, if they thought they had a reasonable shot at making money, they'd still be open.  Obviously the snowstorm makes a difference, but what if temperatures had ended up a few degrees warmer?



regarding the weather - they announced their closing over a week ago because they were afraid were of getting wiped out by the weather. surprise - cold temps, 6" on the ground & still snowing followed by a sunny, warm weekend. probably a net gain of snow for the week. 

and we're not talking cash cow here. maybe a reasonable expectation of a small profit or break even. plus you already spent all that money making the snow in the first place. just turn a lift already.

check out this post from someone whose ski area is gonna be open this weekend:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29771&p=408117#p408117


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## thorski (Apr 28, 2010)

Anyone know how much they spent on "The Beast" campaign?


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## Black Phantom (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> LOGICAL response
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You would love it up there. You could just sit around and drink beer telling everyone how well you ski. You'd really fit right in.

CT skiers....


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## Riverskier (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> LOGICAL response
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You continue to ignore the most important aspect of this conversation. They committed to staying open until May 2nd! I actually agree with much of what you are saying regarding economic viability of late season operations. However, since they did make a committment to May 2nd, economic viability has no place in this discusssion! I don't care if only one person shows up all weekend, the LOGICAL thing to do is to stay open and honor your committments. They should have considered economics when deciding a closing date, or not announced a closing date at all.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> LOGICAL response
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apparently Jay Peak Management sees things differently.



> As to our bottom line:benevolence ratio, trust me, we do this to make money both short and long term. It takes much less to keep going than people are willing to admit-regardless of the area-size-and you can make money if you're willing to turn a lift, price/package your ticket and lodging correctly then market the sh*t out of it. No brain surgeons up this way believe me.


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## drjeff (Apr 28, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> Apparently Jay Peak Management sees things differently.



Question for you.

Even in with today's seasonal numbers.  Who has a larger market share of the skiing in the Northeast K or Jay???

Agree with them or not, they do know what they're doing and not every descision they make is popular, but they make them anyway.

heck, I'm lucky enough with where I own at Mount Snow to have owner's who are more like those at Jay, where they're very open with their customers and seem to "just get it"  But with respect to K,  even if you dig through the now multi-threads here on AZ about K this season, the majority of them show improvement and that Powdr is learning from what they did a few seasons ago after they bought the place.

They made the descision to close, likely that descision came down from the coporate HQ out West after they saw something, something that we "arm chair ski area operators" will likely never see, and all the while I'm sure knowing that the proverbial internet bitch-fest would ensue, they stuck with it.  One tends to look a bit differently at things when they are the ones signing the checks as opposed to those that don't. I'm not saying that I agree with their descsion,  I'm just saying that sometimes the descisions that one makes in business aren't the easy ones


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## gmcunni (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> They made the descision to close, likely that descision came down from the coporate HQ out West after they saw something, something that we "arm chair ski area operators" will likely never see, and all the while I'm sure knowing that the proverbial internet bitch-fest would ensue, they stuck with it.  One tends to look a bit differently at things when they are the ones signing the checks as opposed to those that don't. I'm not saying that I agree with their descsion,  I'm just saying that sometimes the descisions that one makes in business aren't the easy ones



DrJ, i get all that ^^ but really think they screwed up. two days before announcing the closing they were still advertising the May 2 date.  They came out and announced they were closing due to weather forecast more than a week in advance.   if they "saw something" why not be up front and honest with your customers and tell us that rather than blame the weather? 

at the end of the day(season) their decision to close last weekend won't affect my decision on  skiing at K.  i'll probably get about the same number of days there next year that i got this year or last year.


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## bobbutts (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> One tends to look a bit differently at things when they are the ones signing the checks as opposed to those that don't. I'm not saying that I agree with their descsion,  I'm just saying that sometimes the descisions that one makes in business aren't the easy ones



They're still:
1. Incompetent for advertising May 2
2. Looking really stupid for using the weather as an excuse.

Looks to me like a poorly run company where marketing and bean counters fail to work together.  Looking stupid and incompetent is counter-productive to marketing and has a real (and difficult to calculate) cost for the company.  Whatever the reasoning/cost was I find it hard to believe this decision will be a good one long term.


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 28, 2010)

thorski said:


> How is the shoveling going now bubba? The plows are out. :beer:
> We live there too.



We've got about 4" - 5" as of this morning and still snowing.  It's a different world from yesterday afternoon.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 28, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Question for you.
> They made the descision to close, likely that descision came down from the coporate HQ out West after they saw something, something that we "arm chair ski area operators" will likely never see, and all the while I'm sure knowing that the proverbial internet bitch-fest would ensue, they stuck with it.


I doubt the gave the internet message boards and social media a thought at all.


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## gmcunni (Apr 28, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> We've got about 4" - 5" as of this morning and still snowing.  It's a different world from yesterday afternoon.



funny, yesterday on facebook they were CYA'ing themselves pointing out that it was hardly snowing. they linked to the golf course web cam showing green grass.

today it is different.


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## Groundskeeper Willie (Apr 28, 2010)

*Eric....get BACKon yer meds (*little man)*



Brownsville Brooklyn said:


> biggest failure at k is that xxxxxxx lives in k & hasnt been shot yet....what a douche bag!!


            putz.....


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## 2knees (Apr 28, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> DrJ, i get all that ^^ but really think they screwed up. two days before announcing the closing they were still advertising the May 2 date.  They came out and announced they were closing due to weather forecast more than a week in advance.   if they "saw something" why not be up front and honest with your customers and tell us that rather than blame the weather?
> 
> at the end of the day(season) their decision to close last weekend won't affect my decision on  skiing at K.  i'll probably get about the same number of days there next year that i got this year or last year.




exactly.

they pumped a May 2nd closing and sold spring passes with the caveat "weather and conditions permitting".  Not financial conditions permitting.  Well, the weather and conditions are permitting yet they are closed.  there really is nothing left to argue.  People can emotionally discuss the financial pitfalls to late season skiing but they arent looking at the core issue involved here.  

and there is no emotion whatsoever from me.  i probably wouldnt have been skiing this weekend as it turned out anyway.  i think i'll just hang around drinking beer telling anyone who passes by what a great ct skier i am......:roll:


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## Geoff (Apr 28, 2010)

2knees said:


> exactly.
> 
> they pumped a May 2nd closing and sold spring passes with the caveat "weather and conditions permitting".  Not financial conditions permitting.  Well, the weather and conditions are permitting yet they are closed.  there really is nothing left to argue.  People can emotionally discuss the financial pitfalls to late season skiing but they arent looking at the core issue involved here.
> 
> and there is no emotion whatsoever from me.  i probably wouldnt have been skiing this weekend as it turned out anyway.  i think i'll just hang around drinking beer telling anyone who passes by what a great ct skier i am......:roll:





> Small claims court is a special part of the Vermont Superior Court, and you are required to sue in the court in the county where you reside or the county where the defendant resides.  Under Rule of Small Claims Procedure 2(b), the Court has the authority to change the location of the case to a place in which either party resides.
> 
> Only claims for monetary damages not exceeding $5,000.00 (i.e., claims for the price of goods sold, money lent, rent in arrears, etc.) may be filed in small claims court.
> 
> ...



So my drive from Killington to Jay Peak is 300 miles round trip.   The IRS allows 50 cents per mile.   When I submit my demand letter for a refund, it's going to include these costs.


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## WJenness (Apr 28, 2010)

Geoff said:


> So my drive from Killington to Jay Peak is 300 miles round trip.   The IRS allows 50 cents per mile.   When I submit my demand letter for a refund, it's going to include these costs.



Hotel room at Jay should be considered too... Since you have a place at Killington and bought it there for (presumably) the long seasons...

-w


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## threecy (Apr 28, 2010)

"I can't afford to live on two days a week pay.  I need a full week's pay to feed my family.  The big corporation I work for won't tell me whether or not they'll lay me off this week.  I can't file for unemployment until they lay me off."

"But I want them to wait until the last possible minute to decide if they'll be open for two days in May.  You can wait."


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## Highway Star (May 1, 2010)

drjeff said:


> They made the descision to close, likely that descision came down from the coporate HQ out West after they saw something, something that we "arm chair ski area operators" will likely never see, and all the while I'm sure knowing that the proverbial internet bitch-fest would ensue, they stuck with it. One tends to look a bit differently at things when they are the ones signing the checks as opposed to those that don't. I'm not saying that I agree with their descsion, I'm just saying that sometimes the descisions that one makes in business aren't the easy ones


 
*Sorry for not coming back to this sooner.  Jeff poses an excellent hypothesis.  Clearly, the bean counters pulled the plug on this weekend after they blew the whole spring budget during sunshine daydream/pond skim weekend.  There was large outlay for that with minimal returns due to the poor weather and attendance.  They did not want to risk staying open another weekend just to hemmorage money.*


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## skiadikt (May 2, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> *Sorry for not coming back to this sooner.  Jeff poses an excellent hypothesis.  Clearly, the bean counters pulled the plug on this weekend after they blew the whole spring budget during sunshine daydream/pond skim weekend.  There was large outlay for that with minimal returns due to the poor weather and attendance.  They did not want to risk staying open another weekend just to hemmorage money.*



obviously it was a bean counting decision from somewhere and as it turned out probably the wrong one. see j peak this weekend ... in any case, many folks were saying they "got it" this year, all the snow they allegedly blew on ss, june baby etc ... if there is anything to get, it's clear they haven't got it and won't be. this apparently is the best we can expect from these guys - late april and sometimes early may at best.

doesn't really matter where the decision was made. most people say utah. i'm not so sure. i think nyberg went along relunctantly with the extended season and beast thingy. perhaps a show me attitude. a few bad spring weekends and he was done, preferring "to keep his money in his pocket".


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## mountainman (May 2, 2010)

If it effected your bonus your would close to. Just kidding. Spring skiing you probaly are not in to make money, the cost to operate and revenue income will not be a gain. In staying open late it's to gain season pass holders and being able to advertise an expanded season. If Beast is going to be the Beast than it should be skiing into May.


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## riverc0il (May 2, 2010)

mountainman said:


> Just kidding. Spring skiing you probaly are not in to make money.


I think Jay Peak would disagree with that assessment...

Profitability as a percent would certainly be significantly lower. But what I saw at Killington during their closing weekend, they have to have really poor management not to have made a profit that weekend _even excluding folks that were there with season passes which in fact still were paying customers._

I have familiarity with making business decisions based on the "can we at least break even on costs versus total profit after costs and expenses" question. Part of that question also has to be "are we servicing unique customers that might not buy the same product during regular business hours instead of extended business hours?" I think this is the version of the question that Killington asked themselves... they discounted season pass holders and assumed not a lot of paying tickets. I don't buy it, they would have made a profit either way but didn't want to put forth the effort.

I would say it is going to cost them in marketing and season passes.... but it ultimately won't. The one aspect of this that was a great business decision is that Killington knows it's market. The pass holders that are bitching right now will buy a pass again next season and will bitch no matter what K does. Those of us looking to ski late season just find another option (we may comment on K but ultimately the decision does not effect me nor my future skiing one bit). Killington regulars not into the regular season don't care.

It was a terrible decision overall but ultimately, I don't think they loose anything that they have not already lost unless Killington pass holders speak with their money and buy a pass somewhere else. But I just don't see that happening. I have never see a group of consumers so dedicated to a company/brand/product that they hate so much but keep coming back to it. Perhaps cell phone customers but in that market, everything sucks unlike the ski market where there are good alternatives. Perhaps it all comes back to people being stuck in real estate so that they feel they do not have a choice?

Bottom line though is if they are not making money on weekend spring skiing with that many people showing up on the last weekend of April with only one lodge and one lift running, they are doing something wrong.


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## drjeff (May 2, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I think Jay Peak would disagree with that assessment...
> 
> Profitability as a percent would certainly be significantly lower. But what I saw at Killington during their closing weekend, they have to have really poor management not to have made a profit that weekend _even excluding folks that were there with season passes which in fact still were paying customers._
> 
> ...



Here's my take on why I bet what K did their last weekend vs. what Jay is doing is like comparing apples and oranges.

1) As was reported in TR's of K last weekend, there was a significant portion of folks on the hill with season passes,  my guess is that as more and more TR's from Jay hit the net the next day or 2, that you won't be hearing such a statement 

2) The Killington tailgating experience - from the pics I've seen, there's a good deal more folks breaking out the grills and coolers at K, than Jay.  And their free-lunch Thursday promo was a great way to INCREASE atleast the beverage side of their F&B revenue, as I think it's safe to say that not everyone drank water  So Jay is likely getting more F&B revenue than K

3) Jay is really out to sell itself - K already has a solid customer base, and even if they (K) pissed off some of them with their moves of the last few weeks,  I haven't exactly seen too many reports either here on AZ or over at KZ, of folks who had a '09-'10 K pass NOT buying their '10-'11 K pass.  If anything, up until the last 2 weeks or so, the vast majority of K commentary (crowds, snowmaking effort, lift operating scedhules, etc) have been overwhelmingly positive, and in the big picture of things if K's modern season is say 24 weeks long (early November to end of April) and it's positive for 22 or23 of the 24 week season, they're doing more stuff right than wrong.

Jay is still working (and seems to be taking many good steps towards doing so) at building that diehard core base of customer that will take the "plunge" in the form of seeking sometype of housing interest (purchase/share house/etc) to become a full time Jay skier/rider.  But for many, that means the extra time commitment that it takes to get to Jay, and if you're talking about that core customer, who is at the mountain atleast 50% of it's operating weekends, that extra traveltime, especially if you've got kids in the car, week in and week out is often a factor.

I think the best analogy one can make about K and Jay, is K is like a Home Depot/Lowes - a big place that has just about everything that you could want in a competitive package, but has some issues

Jay is more like the good, more local Tru-Value hardware store - has most of the stuff of the big guys, often has a bit better customer service, but can't quite offer the same amount of stuff as the mega place can.  Both though can (and often do) have success, but very often their main customers are different folks that are trying to do the same things


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## riverc0il (May 2, 2010)

I never tried to compare Jay and K but rather Jay has reported that they are profitable during late season.

As far as pass holders at K, my impression was 50/50 pass to non-pass holder on closing weekend. That is still a HUGE day ticket sales number for one lift AND passholders are paying too, they just did up front. So not staying open because it is mostly pass holders is a bad argument. But the point is that they had enough day ticket buyers either way to at least break even on operations, IMO. Maybe there is some hidden administrative cost that I am not aware of.

Regardless, we do both agree that K has no need to push real estate and season passes because folks are already vested whereas Jay has had the Move Up campaign for a while now and clearly values new real estate and pass sales. 

All that is irrelevant though when talking about profitability potential on a late season weekend when there are only four operations spinning in the entire region and K is the closest to population centers and clearly was getting the people to come.


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## SkiDork (May 3, 2010)

mountainman said:


> Spring skiing you probaly are not in to make money, the cost to operate and revenue income will not be a gain.



This goes back to the comparison with summer Mtn biking.  How do they make money doing that with what seems like far less customers, and not on a spring ski weekend with many walk up ticket buyers (from other mountains etc)?


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## deadheadskier (May 3, 2010)

The mountain biking is a good point.

I don't think Jay is trying to steal K customers, though I'm sure they appreciate all the typical late season K skiers showing up late season.

I'm sure the big bullseye for Jay is Mt. Tremblant.  Even though Mt. Tremblant is a different skiing experience, it has a hefty population of real estate investors from Montreal.  I would think given the proximity that Montreal is Jay's target market.


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## Geoff (May 3, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I never tried to compare Jay and K but rather Jay has reported that they are profitable during late season.



Steve Wright told me Friday that they sold 750 day tickets on Thursday and another 500 on Friday.   Saturday was a big day.   He assured me that it is profitable.   Is it the cash flow of Presidents Weekend or Christmas week?   No.   ...but it's the right thing to do for your customers.   The data is out there on the Vermont web site documenting the continuted decline of Killington.   Traffic counts drop every year.   Sales, meals, and lodging drop every year.  At some point, Killington loses critical mass.    Business failures.   No snowmaking budget.   It turns into what happened to Sugarbush during their decline.

I thought KSRP had turned the corner until they pulled this stunt.   They clearly don't understand their market.  It's time for me to mail in my demand letter.  They owe me 1/26th of my season pass for closing a week early and they owe me the expenses I incurred to ski at Jay Peak.   I put 300 miles on my car getting there.   At 50 cents per mile, I figure they owe me just shy of $200.00.


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## bigbob (May 3, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Steve Wright told me Friday that they sold 750 day tickets on Thursday and another 500 on Friday.   Saturday was a big day.   He assured me that it is profitable.   Is it the cash flow of Presidents Weekend or Christmas week?   No.   ...but it's the right thing to do for your customers.   The data is out there on the Vermont web site documenting the continuted decline of Killington.   Traffic counts drop every year.   Sales, meals, and lodging drop every year.  At some point, Killington loses critical mass.    Business failures.   No snowmaking budget.   It turns into what happened to Sugarbush during their decline.
> 
> I thought KSRP had turned the corner until they pulled this stunt.   They clearly don't understand their market.  It's time for me to mail in my demand letter.  They owe me 1/26th of my season pass for closing a week early and they owe me the expenses I incurred to ski at Jay Peak.   I put 300 miles on my car getting there.   At 50 cents per mile, I figure they owe me just shy of $200.00.



 I would not spend that $200 before you get it! Good luck, and if every pass holder sent them a letter do you think a little bell might go off in somebodies head, "Geez, I guess I fu**ed up"!! Especially when the still use the skiing into May to sell passes! All this has been beat to death, but if the traffic counters continue to show a decline in an improving economy, do you think they might wake up ???
 Please post a "Crackberry" picture of the check if you receive it!


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## mister moose (May 4, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Question for you.
> 
> Even in with today's seasonal numbers.  Who has a larger market share of the skiing in the Northeast K or Jay???



I'm quite certain if you plunked Jay Peak where Pico is, you'd have a whole different ball game.  Distance from population centers is Jay's biggest obstacle to growth. Market share differential has far less to do with the business acumen of POWDR Corp.



drjeff said:


> They made the descision to close, likely that descision came down from the coporate HQ out West after they saw something, something that we "arm chair ski area operators" will likely never see, and all the while I'm sure knowing that the proverbial internet bitch-fest would ensue, they stuck with it.  One tends to look a bit differently at things when they are the ones signing the checks as opposed to those that don't. I'm not saying that I agree with their descsion,  I'm just saying that sometimes the descisions that one makes in business aren't the easy ones



Yes, it may have come from Utah, and yes there are considerations not seen by the public. However, not standing by your commitments and losing credibility are _never_ good business practices.  Those considerations should have affected future operation dates and planning, not current commitments.



drjeff said:


> Here's my take on why I bet what K did their last weekend vs. what Jay is doing is like comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> 1) As was reported in TR's of K last weekend, there was a significant portion of folks on the hill with season passes,  my guess is that as more and more TR's from Jay hit the net the next day or 2, that you won't be hearing such a statement
> 
> ...



1) So my pass revenue doesn't count at all?  

2) Exactly.  This is what POWDR is doing wrong. Overpriced F&B drives people away when they have an alternative.  This however, has no bearing on Springtime operational decisions the weekend of 4/30 since as you theorize, Jay made money on F&B.

3)  I agree, but with one huge difference.  By being misleading and not honoring their commitments on multiple occasions, POWDR is planting the seeds of mistrust in their future slopeside property buyers.  That can't be a good thing.


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## drjeff (May 4, 2010)

mister moose said:


> I'm quite certain if you plunked Jay Peak where Pico is, you'd have a whole different ball game.  Distance from population centers is Jay's biggest obstacle to growth. Market share differential has far less to do with the business acumen of POWDR Corp.



True - but shortly of some mega incredible geological event and/or the combined populations of Burlington and St. Johnsbury supassing those of Boston and New York,  K has that huge advantage and that's just a simple fact.





mister moose said:


> Yes, it may have come from Utah, and yes there are considerations not seen by the public. However, not standing by your commitments and losing credibility are _never_ good business practices.  Those considerations should have affected future operation dates and planning, not current commitments.



Until the core K customer starts speaking with his/her wallet, the credibility issue isn't really one.  Powdr has already demonstrated with the "cleansing" of the ASC era bronze passes, that they're not afraid to loose passholders, and for many in the potential market for some of the proposed K village properties that they want to build,  a season from Thanksgiving (or maybe even X-mas) through early March is all they're looking for, since in general when it comes to ski homes, the higher their price, the less then owners use them





mister moose said:


> 1) So my pass revenue doesn't count at all?



at the end of the ski season, probably not that much, as an actual revenue from that day is more likely to sway operational status than the built in $$ from passholders -  the ugly truth sometimes that passholders are important for about 90% of the season,  but in the last 10% their importance falls off



mister moose said:


> 2) Exactly.  This is what POWDR is doing wrong. Overpriced F&B drives people away when they have an alternative.  This however, has no bearing on Springtime operational decisions the weekend of 4/30 since as you theorize, Jay made money on F&B.



Until ski area F&B is able to offer a 5 star quality product at say McDonald's prices, pretty much everyone will complain 



mister moose said:


> 3)  I agree, but with one huge difference.  By being misleading and not honoring their commitments on multiple occasions, POWDR is planting the seeds of mistrust in their future slopeside property buyers.  That can't be a good thing.



See my above about the likely buyer of a Powdr/S&P future K village development property - the reality is their target market is much morely likely to be the 10 day a year K skier than the 100 day a year K skier


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## mister moose (May 4, 2010)

drjeff said:


> at the end of the ski season, probably not that much, as an actual revenue from that day is more likely to sway operational status than the built in $$ from passholders -  the ugly truth sometimes that passholders are important for about 90% of the season,  but in the last 10% their importance falls off



It was a retorical question.   But it also questioned the wisdom of that kind of thinking at a resort that used to be known for late season skiing.



drjeff said:


> Until the core K customer starts speaking with his/her wallet, the credibility issue isn't really one.



Uh, you might want to rethink that.  Here's a graph of the killington access road traffic counter since 2005:







And if you think the credibilty issue won't affect future real estate sales, you are as out of touch as Utah.  I'm not saying some of your example Mr-ski-10-days-a-year won't buy some.  I am saying that street rep and buzz counts for a lot, even in wealthy circles.  And the street rep lately isn't good.  The buzz is down.  And that will affect real estate sales.



drjeff said:


> Until ski area F&B is able to offer a 5 star quality product at say McDonald's prices, pretty much everyone will complain



Funny, but Sugarbush and Jay Peak are large resorts that price a _better_ product at a _lower_ price than Killington.  Got that?  Food you actually want to eat.  At other ski resorts.  I am addressing the competitive aspects of those resorts, not the nature of customers to complain in general.




drjeff said:


> See my above about the likely buyer of a Powdr/S&P future K village development property - the reality is their target market is much morely likely to be the 10 day a year K skier than the 100 day a year K skier



...and that 10 day a year skier guy/gal likes to go where the 'in' crowd is.  See Nantucket, Hamptons, Newport, St Barts, Stowe.  see my above graph for a picture of how 'in' Killington has been lately.


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## mondeo (May 4, 2010)

mister moose said:


> Uh, you might want to rethink that. Here's a graph of the killington access road traffic counter since 2005:


And with that come 2x the season ticket price. My guess is revenue is at least flat.


> And if you think the credibilty issue won't affect future real estate sales, you are as out of touch as Utah. I'm not saying some of your example Mr-ski-10-days-a-year won't buy some. I am saying that street rep and buzz counts for a lot, even in wealthy circles. And the street rep lately isn't good. The buzz is down. And that will affect real estate sales.


Street rep among this crowd and historic K regulars is down. Street rep in the circles of Dec-mid March skiers after this year is probably on the rise. Good midwinter product is what matters.


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## skiadikt (May 4, 2010)

mondeo said:


> And with that come 2x the season ticket price. My guess is revenue is at least flat.
> 
> Street rep among this crowd and historic K regulars is down. Street rep in the circles of Dec-mid March skiers after this year is probably on the rise. Good midwinter product is what matters.




that cheap pass was an aberration - only for asc's last few years. prior to that, the pass price was pretty much where it is today - maybe slightly higher.

also they got very lucky with their mid-winter product. didn't get much nat snow but very clean in terms of rain/thaw/freeze cycles. once the season finally started, wasn't very challenging in terms of maintaining a good ski surface.


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## Greg (May 5, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I would say it is going to cost them in marketing and season passes.... but it ultimately won't. The one aspect of this that was a great business decision is that Killington knows it's market. The pass holders that are bitching right now will buy a pass again next season and will bitch no matter what K does.
> 
> _[snip]_
> 
> It was a terrible decision overall but ultimately, I don't think they loose anything that they have not already lost unless Killington pass holders speak with their money and buy a pass somewhere else. But I just don't see that happening. I have never see a group of consumers so dedicated to a company/brand/product that they hate so much but keep coming back to it.



You should win an award for these observations. You're right on target.


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## SkiDork (May 5, 2010)

nobody hates the actual mountain.  Its the owners.  Unfortunately you can't seperate the 2


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## JerseyJoey (May 5, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> nobody hates the actual mountain.  Its the owners.  Unfortunately you can't seperate the 2



Exactly. Tough to hate the place. Easy to hate the owners.


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## Vortex (May 5, 2010)

Really am curious how many seasons pass day trip people have made a move to OKemo, Mt snow and Sunday River..  Property owners are going to ski where their bed is. The rest have a choice.

I think the descion will have some impact. 

I still think Mt snow and Sunday River have got some of the market.  I have heard others mention Okemo. Length of Season does not seem to be a competition issue there. Maybe Parks.

K is a great mountain. That has not changed,


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## dmc (May 5, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> Exactly. Tough to hate the place. Easy to hate the owners.



Yup.... It's all about the terrain...


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## jerryg (May 5, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Really am curious how many seasons pass day trip people have made a move to OKemo, Mt snow and Sunday River..  Property owners are going to ski where their bed is. The rest have a choice.
> 
> I think the descion will have some impact.
> 
> ...



I have a hard time thinking that K loses skiers to SR unless those skiers are from MA. If they are from NY/NJ they are going to Snow or Okemo... or the Jersey Shore to party with Pauli D and The Situation.

I don't see Snow or Okemo as having longer seasons and they sure as heck don't have better terrain than K, so I don't see why people would leave to go either place.


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## bobbutts (May 5, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Really am curious how many seasons pass day trip people have made a move to OKemo, Mt snow and Sunday River..  Property owners are going to ski where their bed is. The rest have a choice.
> 
> I think the descion will have some impact.
> 
> ...



I was an  ASC  passholder way back in the days b4 moving out of the area.  Since returning I've done Stratton, Okemo, Sunapee passes for 3 years and Boyne for 1 year.  Without superior snowmaking and season length I'd rather stay closer to home at places with admittedly weaker terrain, and pay less.  When the snow is good I buy (usually discounted) day tickets at places like Magic, Bush, Cannon, Ragged, even Whaleback.  Once Killington is the closest operating area they get my day business.  About 3 days per year for the last few seasons although a few of those went to the Bush the last 2 seasons before this one.

If things were more like they used to be wrt season length and snowmaking overall probably all 4 of those years would have been K passes.


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## dmc (May 5, 2010)

jerryg said:


> If they are from NY/NJ they are going to Snow or Okemo...



We've had a few Killington expatriates join us at Hunter in the last couple years..   We did lose a bunch of folks to K too...  But I see them more lately...


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## Vortex (May 5, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> I was an  ASC  passholder way back in the days b4 moving out of the area.  Since returning I've done Stratton, Okemo, Sunapee passes for 3 years and Boyne for 1 year.  Without superior snowmaking and season length I'd rather stay closer to home at places with admittedly weaker terrain, and pay less.  When the snow is good I buy (usually discounted) day tickets at places like Magic, Bush, Cannon, Ragged, even Whaleback.  Once Killington is the closest operating area they get my day business.  About 3 days per year for the last few seasons although a few of those went to the Bush the last 2 seasons before this one.
> 
> If things were more like they used to be wrt season length and snowmaking overall probably all 4 of those years would have been K passes.



I bet there are quite a few like you.

Jerry the boston market... I think  the River as of Late is getting more of the Boston market than it did prior, and probably the NY NJ and Ct look to Vermont in some fashion.


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## Riverskier (May 5, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I have a hard time thinking that K loses skiers to SR unless those skiers are from MA. If they are from NY/NJ they are going to Snow or Okemo... or the Jersey Shore to party with Pauli D and The Situation.
> 
> I don't see Snow or Okemo as having longer seasons and they sure as heck don't have better terrain than K, so I don't see why people would leave to go either place.



I would agree that K would likely only lose skiers to SR from MA and not NY/NJ, for the most part anyway. However, the MA market is huge! That equals a lot of existing/potential customers to lose.

As to Snow or Okemo, sure the terrain isn't any better or season any longer, but they are closer to th NY/NJ market. Without having the Oct.-May season as a draw, perhaps they would choose a closer mountain. Or without the long season as a draw, perhaps they choose to drive a little further to even better terrain north of K.

It is anybody's guess just how much a shortened season will effect K's business levels, but the one thing I am sure of is that it will have some effect. I have no statistics, but it is clear that some people are buying Boyne passes at least in part for their committment to a long season.


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## Vortex (May 5, 2010)

Never thought about the shorter distance factor to other resorts in Vermont.   I thought more would go further north. Good points there Mr I just out of surgery,


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## Riverskier (May 5, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Never thought about the shorter distance factor to other resorts in Vermont.   I thought more would go further north. Good points there Mr I just out of surgery,



Plenty of time on my hands. Pass is purchased though, and partly because of season length!


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## deadheadskier (May 5, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I don't see Snow or Okemo as having longer seasons and they sure as heck don't have better terrain than K, so I don't see why people would leave to go either place.




Can't speak for Mt. Snow, but Okemo has far better terrain for intermediates than Killington does.  Both quality and quantity.  

When I got my first season pass at Okemo in 1985, they were doing about 200K skier visits.  Today they're over 600.  I'm guessing a lot of those skiers were from Killington.  I know we were Killington skiers before Okemo.  We'd do Thanksgiving weekend and Christmas week at K and day trip to NH areas the rest of the season.  My folks being intermediate skiers tried Okemo once and we never vacationed at Killington again and ended up getting a home in Ludlow.


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## drjeff (May 5, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Can't speak for Mt. Snow, but Okemo has far better terrain for intermediates than Killington does.  Both quality and quantity.
> .



Mount Snow will give the "cruiser" market much of the same appeal as what Okemo can offer the "cruiser" market - a large pod of cruising terrain with some tougher stuff thrown in to boot.  Plus, for the more and more likely to be park using "kids of cruiser" the park set up that Mount Snow can offer them is second to none on the East Coast - and happy kids/teens can easily play into a parent's descsion about where to go/possibly where to get a pass.  And in now way am I trying to compare K and Mount Snow, as about the only thing they have in common is the customers slide down a snow covered mountain


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Really am curious how many seasons pass day trip people have made a move to OKemo, Mt snow and Sunday River.. Property owners are going to ski where their bed is. The rest have a choice.
> 
> I think the descion will have some impact.
> 
> ...


 
I was an ASC/KMart Passholder in College and in 2006-2007. When POWDR came in, I went to Sugarbush. Haven't left. Count me as a daytrip passholder that left.

To be frank, if things changed but I was in New England, the only other place I'd consider getting a pass to would be Sugarloaf/Sunday River. Good deal with the long season, excellent service and facilities, and diversity of terrain. I like Sugarbush a lot, but it is in my backyard. Stowe is nice, but it is way too expensive.  The fact that my soon-to-be Mrs. has been a Sugarloafer since 1984 plays some role in it.  Damn women :wink:


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## Vortex (May 6, 2010)

There are different levels.  Day skier who buy tickets,  they will still go to K. There are day skier pass holders. The jury is out on what they are doing.  Property owners tend to stay where they are. 

 House share folks have options,  Families want a place that is well rounded with family activities kids programs and social life.  Jury is out on that group.  I think this is where Snow and K Okemo are making a move.

K is still the King for the Ny, CT and NJ market.  The Metro Boston area I think is split up more than it use to be with maine and NH and southern VT.  The recent actions and directions have effected that.

If I was just looking at turns in Vermont K the Bush and Mad River would be the places I would go. Terrain is the reason.  Ride is shorter or the same than a trip to Maine,


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## roark (May 6, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Really am curious how many seasons pass day trip people have made a move to OKemo, Mt snow and Sunday River.. Property owners are going to ski where their bed is. The rest have a choice.


 
This will be year #2 w/o a K pass for me.


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## Bubbartzky (May 11, 2010)

Just catching up on my reading and came upon this thread.  Here's a tidbit from a meeting I had recently that included one of the senior management types here in Killington.  He acknowledged that Killington had alienated a lot of skiers, with those skiers heading toward other mountains in Vermont and elsewhere, and he also acknowledged that it's costing them a lot of money to try to bring them back.  Basically, they know they f*cked up and they know they're paying for it.  I'm not sure, however, they yet realize how much they hurt themselves with the earlier than planned closing, especially the way it was handled - one day promoting May 2nd, the next announcing a closing a week earlier.


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## Highway Star (Oct 28, 2010)

Bump. Just a reminder of what happened at Killington this past spring. Fail.

Fast forward to this fall:

*Spending $90,000 on a walkway, get roughly 1.5ft snow (enough to open), put ~$50,000+ of snowmaking on top of it (again, enough to open), getting beat to the opening by Sunday River, then not opening, having all the snow melt, and not opening for at least 2 weeks.* 

Now seriously, who is making the operational decisions here....????

That's pretty epic to me.


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## gmcunni (Oct 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.  Just a reminder of what happened at Killington this past spring.



thanks, i completely forgot about that.


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## thorski (Oct 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump. Just a reminder of what happened at Killington this past spring. Fail.
> 
> Fast forward to this fall:
> 
> ...



They spent $90,000 on that walkway??? That must be one epic walkway, seriously. 
If they spent $90,000  on it, it better be skiable.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2010)

You Killington guys are high if you think any major ski area is opening with just 18" on bare ground unpacked. 

Im sure it was awesome for the 15-20 people who booted up, but an entire opening weekend crowd, puhlease.


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## Highway Star (Oct 29, 2010)

There were roughly 100+ people there hiking. They could have let people up the gondi (which was running, 3 cabins) ski at your own risk, etc, and called it an opening. Pretty much what went down Oct. '05..............


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2010)

100+. Ok, if you say so. Thats more aggro than the Jackson Hole crowd, and we just got 4 feet. Maybe over the course of the weekend, but I doubt it was like Tux in April up there either.  

But 100 people taking 1-2 runs is not several hundred making 10+. 

No ski area that takes on liability is going to just spin em up for 18" fresh on bare ground. No way, no how. Hate to break it to you.


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## JimG. (Oct 29, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> You Killington guys are high if you think any major ski area is opening with just 18" on bare ground unpacked.
> 
> Im sure it was awesome for the 15-20 people who booted up, but an entire opening weekend crowd, puhlease.



Wow, a voice of reason.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 29, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> You Killington guys are high if you think any major ski area is opening with just 18" on bare ground unpacked.
> 
> Im sure it was awesome for the 15-20 people who booted up, but an entire opening weekend crowd, puhlease.



I agree, although I don't know how many Killington guys (and gals:wink were advocating opening on 18 inches of snow.  Most were wondering about why the made a bunch of snow ontop of that and yet still did not open.


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## Glenn (Oct 29, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> thanks, i completely forgot about that.



I never know what's going on at Killington. There are never any threads here that discuss such.


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## Highway Star (Oct 29, 2010)

An opening was on the table until mid-morning Oct. 16th.  If they had gotten 6-12" more snow and it stayed cold saturday, they would have certainly opened.


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