# Seeking Voice of Experience re: Improvement vs. Cost



## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

I. Skill-Building

New Skier “born” on Feb. 16, 2011; completely snake-bit with pure enjoyment.
Male
5’ 10”
Min. weight: 170 lbs.
Max. weight: 190 lbs. (with boots, clothing, backpack, and huge breakfast)
MA-VT-NH-ME
Skiing Blues at Killington and dodgey wild runs down the Wild Turkey Black Diamond at Jiminy Peak.
Want to stay on ski trails; no desire as of now to trek around off-trail.
Able to ski in parallel, but never properly carve a line; every turn is tail-skidding.
Will obtain more ski instruction.
***Ultimate goal is to ski the Superstar at Killington, in balance and under control.***

II. What does it cost to ski Superstar?

Completed  much reading about the physiological mechanics of skiing and choices for skis, bindings, and boots --- Harold Harb and PMTS.

Now find self in dizzy spiral of decision-making about what gear to buy.
Do not want to spend $500 or more in the upcoming season to demo different skis every  weekend.

Skis -- Seems like the stiffer skis built for higher speed have waist sizes in the 60’s mm range.  If I buy skis of this waist size will I be able to get through late season wet heavy knee-bashing mounds of New England Oatmeal and Mashed Potatos?  Or, will I need a 70’s mm waist to handle this?

Do I need to focus solely on race/carve skis in order to have longitudinal/torsional stiffness and proper edge-hold at higher speeds, or are there also Frontside and All-Mountain skis that are appropriate for higher speeds?

For example, there’s no way I can handle true GS skis with turn radius of 25-40 meters, but even the GS cheaters look very expensive -- $1,200 and most without binding. By contrast, how about the Head iSuperShape Speed SW SP 13 (118-68-100) at about half the price. It seems made for higher speed; will it also handle the mashed potatos?

Boots -- so complicated. Do you have to jump up to Race boot level ($600-$900) to be assured of good stiffness, less ramp angle, and proper lateral support at higher speeds? Or, are there non-race boots that achieve almost the same support for about $350?

III. Or...
Should I forget about buying any gear and going faster until I can successfully link together carved turns with no skidding on standard rental gear?

Thanks for your help.


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## riverc0il (May 15, 2011)

Nice enthusiasm!


Sum1 said:


> III. Or...
> Should I forget about buying any gear and going faster until I can successfully link together carved turns with no skidding on standard rental gear?
> 
> Thanks for your help.


This. Invest your money in a season pass and ski. A lot. Take lessons, watch others, and ski. If you are still renting gear, you aren't skiing enough to improve so you'll need to buy something. If you gotta spend money, start with the boots. 

Everyone learns and develops at a different rate so there is no timeline. But you'll need more than a respectable parallel turn so you'll need to keep at it.  You might want to consider finding a mountain with seeded bumps at an intermediate pitch for when you are ready to develop some mogul skills. By that time, you might be ready to look at an advanced all mountain ski.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> If you gotta spend money, start with the boots.
> 
> But you'll need more than a respectable parallel turn so you'll need to keep at it.  You might want to consider finding a mountain with seeded bumps at an intermediate pitch for when you are ready to develop some mogul skills. By that time, you might be ready to look at an advanced all mountain ski.



River,

Thanks for the speedy reply; very much appreciated.
Can you elaborate a little more about the kind of boot you would choose?
I know it's such an individual thing, even more than choosing a ski, but it would be helpful to hear about choosing a good boot without taking a mortgage.  

So, am I catching your inference correctly about the skis --- "you need more skills and improvement before you can figure out which ski is going to work for you."
Ya?


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## riverc0il (May 15, 2011)

Regarding boots, it is all about what fits. Go to a good bootfitter, tell them what you want to do and your experience, and they'll have you try a bunch on. If you want to spend a lot of money on nice, new equipment, your boot is the best place to begin with. Skis you can get used and as long as you aren't getting something super stiff  or hard to flex like a race ski or something completely inappropriate like a powder ski, you'll probably be okay for now. 

I am not saying you shouldn't buy stuff. But at your desired rate of development, buying a new expensive intermediate ski is not going to be as helpful for you as skiing a ton, and you'll out grow an intermediate ski very quickly if you have a huge imbition to grow and develop. You need a 30+ day season and you need to spend a good part of every day focusing specifically on technique. 30+ days with focus on technique and lessons will help you WAY more than any new ski purchase.

Your ultimate question seems to be "what will it cost to ski the Superstar at Killington, in balance and under control?" Are you putting a cost just on skiing Superstar? You'll have to factor in all the other fun you'll have in getting there. If you get new gear, get a season pass, still ski a few other areas, and take lessons, you'll get there after at least $3000-4000+ over the course of a few years (give or take depending on your rate of development and assuming mostly new gear). Of course, you can always ski a trail like Superstar at any time without good balance and control. And you can always buy all used.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

This is great stuff!! 
I was becoming obsessed, spending hours and hours staring at ski manufacturers websites wondering which ski I should choose.  After reading too many ski review sites, I was falling under the mis-impression that you HAVE to make considerable improvements in your gear to make considerable improvement in your technique and skills.  I now feel a heavy burden lifting off my shoulders, heh.

My wife and I were planning on making an appointment with a local master bootfitter over the summer, so that's a go.

I'll see about a few ski swaps in Autumn; might find a decent pair at a reasonable price.

The best part of all is being reminded to enjoy and value the learning process over everything else.

Thanks again for your time and patience.


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## deadheadskier (May 15, 2011)

where are you located and which boot fitter?

I'll agree with pretty much everything Rivercoil said.  Though I do think there are some intermediate level skis that will carry you well into more advanced stages.  

I wouldn't bother with ski manufacture sites.  The information will be quite biased.  Outside of the skis construction, you're not going to gather the correct information.

Our members here are quite knowledgeable, but this isn't the best skiing forum to learn about gear.  Epic ski is a much better site for that.

http://www.epicski.com/


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## hammer (May 15, 2011)

From the perspective of a perpetual intermediate...

I also agree with what riverc0il said.  Get a well-fitting pair of boots and a reasonable pair of skis.  I'd stay away from entry-level skis because you would outgrow them quickly but there is no need to punish yourself on a pair of expert skis that aren't forgiving.

The only tough part about getting gear at a swap is that you need to know what you are looking for, and that can be tough when equipment are several model years old.

+1 on deadheadskier's recommendation to check out EpicSki.  The board has one member dawgcatching who does reviews and sells skis.  I've received some good advice from him in the past and he has had some good deals on his site.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> where are you located and which boot fitter?
> I'll agree with pretty much everything Rivercoil said.  Though I do think there are some intermediate level skis that will carry you well into more advanced stages.



Hi Deadhead,

I'm in CT and was going to make an appointment at either Action Sports in Branford, CT or the Alpine Haus in Wethersfield, CT for the boot fittings.

I'd definitely like to hear about any Inter --> Advanced skis you think are worth looking into.

Thanks for the epicski link.  I just registered on their forums a week ago, so it's good to know I'm hitting the right spots for education.  I do remain pretty amazed at the depth of technology and construction materials that go into skis and boots; to understand even a little bit about what you're buying requires alot of follow-up.


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## wa-loaf (May 15, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> You need a 30+ day season and you need to spend a good part of every day focusing specifically on technique. 30+ days with focus on technique and lessons will help you WAY more than any new ski purchase.



Don't forget to have some fun too. I've been skiing all my life so I can't quite relate to learning to ski later in life, but I'm always picking up new skills. A lot of how I pick things up these days is just watching what other people are doing out there and trying to emulate their body position or whatever move is looking good to me.


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## deadheadskier (May 15, 2011)

There are a number of members here from Connecticut.  I would post a separate thread asking for good boot fitters in CT.  They'll know if the boot fitters at those shops are top notch or not.  

I do know from my own experience, in 25+ years of skiing in New England, the best boot fitter I've found has been Shon at The Boot Pro in Ludlow, VT.

http://www.thebootpro.net/index.htm

I have tried several others since moving away from Ludlow 16 years ago and really haven't found anyone who is as good as Shon.  So, in a couple of years when I'm due for new boots again, I'll be traveling to visit him again.  I don't care if I end up paying full retail either and I'm often teased on these forums for being cheap, so that's saying something . 

Boots are the single most important piece of equipment you'll own.

As for ski recommendations, based upon what you've listed something like a Fischer Watea 78 comes to mind.  I'm sure there a similar skis from other manufacturers.  They can be had fairly inexpensively, and unless you progress at a rapid rate, they should suit you just fine for 2-3 years I'd imagine.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Don't forget to have some fun too. I've been skiing all my life so I can't quite relate to learning to ski later in life,



Ya, maybe I've got all these questions and concerns about it simply because I'm in my mid-40's and have learned a thing or two about bad knees, back, and want to keep the health that I have while enjoying a new sport.  So, joining the forum has been great.  In one afternoon most of the concern about $$$ and the right vs. wrong ski have given way to "learn and enjoy and you'll find the right ski to buy when you're ready."

What could be better.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

hammer said:


> From the perspective of a perpetual intermediate...
> 
> I also agree with what riverc0il said.  Get a well-fitting pair of boots and a reasonable pair of skis.  I'd stay away from entry-level skis because you would outgrow them quickly but there is no need to punish yourself on a pair of expert skis that aren't forgiving.
> 
> ...



Hi Hammer,

It's funny you mention the whole entry-level thing because that's what started my quest the holy grail/ski in the first place......reading marketing material about edge-hold at higher speeds, etc etc.  I immediately thought, "Okay, if I buy better skis then I'll instantly learn to carve a line rather than skidding all my turns."  From the responses, sounds like it's not the case. 

I've got a pretty comprehensive '09 and '10 make/model spreadsheet ready to go for the ski swap days -- (did I mention that I've been losing sleep and burning hours of research, hehe, I kid you not).  If I can't find anything on my spreadsheet at the swaps, I probably won't buy....probably better off renting in that case.

Will definitely take a look at the dawgcatching threads over at epicski.


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## gmcunni (May 15, 2011)

Sum1 said:


> I'm in CT and was going to make an appointment at either Action Sports in Branford, CT or the Alpine Haus in Wethersfield, CT for the boot fittings.



check Suburban Sports in Berlin CT. Several people here on AZ  have had boot work done there and have had good things to say.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I do know from my own experience, in 25+ years of skiing in New England, the best boot fitter I've found has been Shon at The Boot Pro in Ludlow, VT.
> 
> http://www.thebootpro.net/index.htm
> 
> ...



DH,

The Boot Pro is officially bookmarked and sounds like a rare experience in today's world.
A summer drive to VT sounds pleasant too.
When my wife is ready, I'll take the tip and post up for some possible CT bootfitters too.

I'll check out the Watea 78; of course, in my speed/performance obsessed mind, I immediately think of Progressor 9's when you say the name Fischer.


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## deadheadskier (May 15, 2011)

If you're thinking Progressor 9, a motive 80 might be a happy medium in between the Watea and Progressor as you progress :lol:

My current gear drool is a Motive 84, but will have to be the right deal.

FYI - boot pro is closed during the summer.  Though, it might be worth emailing Shon from the website.  Maybe he opens by appointment.  I'm guessing his inventory is probably pretty low in the summer months though.


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## Sum1 (May 15, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> check Suburban Sports in Berlin CT. Several people here on AZ  have had boot work done there and have had good things to say.



Will do, GMC.
I previously became aware of them because they're one of the few dealers who sell Kastle and Hart skis.  I've become interested in both of those manufacturers.

Thanks for your help.


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## riverc0il (May 15, 2011)

Sum1 said:


> I was becoming obsessed, spending hours and hours staring at ski manufacturers websites wondering which ski I should choose.  After reading too many ski review sites, I was falling under the mis-impression that you HAVE to make considerable improvements in your gear to make considerable improvement in your technique and skills.  I now feel a heavy burden lifting off my shoulders, heh.


Of course ski manufacturer web sites would have you believe that buying a brand new ski will make you a better skier. :roll: :-D A ski can hold you back but a new ski won't make you better, only technique will make you better.



Sum1 said:


> I'll check out the Watea 78; of course, in my speed/performance obsessed mind, I immediately think of Progressor 9's when you say the name Fischer.


Not only should you not be thinking about Progressor 9s in your current ability level, but they are also the wrong ski for the job if you want to bash bumps down Superstar. Watea 78or something from the Motive lineup are good suggestions if you are set on upping your ski immediately into a lower advanced all mountain ski. 

I am a gear guy, so I know the allure of teching out, especially when you have a new obsession (hello, I am already looking at upgrading to a carbon road bike in 2012 after two years on my Al ride :roll. But there is one thing that researching bike gear online has taught me: you never get better reviewing gear specs from your chair.

Seconded on the EpicSki forum for gear talk. If you search the gear forum, you'll likely find a similar thread to this one already full of great info. Also, good idea on looking at ski swaps for a ski upgrade. Hammer notes the problem with the used market from a newbie perspective: you have no idea what the model history for each lineup is, you don't know the difference between beginner vs intermediate vs expert vs race. Ideally, you can find someone online with a good rep looking to unload a pair and can match your ability to the ski for you.


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## hammer (May 16, 2011)

Not sure how the demo bindings would be or what the condition is but here is one possibility for used Watea 78s:

http://www.dawgcatching.com/ecommerce/control/product/~category_id=used/~product_id=U-watea78-08

You will find a lot of Watea fans here on AZ but I'm more partial to the Motives...but if I were in the market I'd still give the Wateas serious consideration.


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## Sum1 (May 16, 2011)

hammer said:


> here is one possibility for used Watea 78s



Now that's a nice price I can deal with.
Thanks for the link.
Fischer Motive and Watea are now on my master spreadsheet. <grin>

Thinks to self....(I've got this demo thing all wrong...you could never find a car dealership that would let you test drive their gear on a race track...enjoy demo...lay it on edge if you can)


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## deadheadskier (May 16, 2011)

One suggestion on demos.

Some shops, such as my local shop Fire on the Mountain, will allow you to deduct the accumulated amount of money spent on demos from a new ski purchase.  So, if you demo 4 pairs of skis at $35 per day, you get $140 off any new pair you buy.

I would check if a similar program exists at a shop you frequent that carries the brands/models you are interested in.


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## RootDKJ (May 16, 2011)

Sum1 said:


> Skis -- Seems like the stiffer skis built for higher speed have waist sizes in the 60’s mm range.  If I buy skis of this waist size will I be able to get through late season wet heavy knee-bashing mounds of New England Oatmeal and Mashed Potatos?  Or, will I need a 70’s mm waist to handle this?



There's plenty of great options out there.  My experience is that mid-fat's can be just as "stiff" as the narrow frontside carvers.  That being said, I've found that the wider the ski is, the better it blast through the spring slop.



Sum1 said:


> Do I need to focus solely on race/carve skis in order to have longitudinal/torsional stiffness and proper edge-hold at higher speeds, or are there also Frontside and All-Mountain skis that are appropriate for higher speeds?



I have no idea what "longitudinal/torsional stiffness" is, and if I did, I'd be pretty hard pressed to be thinking about it while on a run.  You could have the stiffest race ski out there, and with a poor tune, it's gonna have crappy edge-hold at higher speeds.  You don't need a race ski for daily recreational skiing.



Sum1 said:


> For example, there’s no way I can handle true GS skis with turn radius of 25-40 meters, but even the GS cheaters look very expensive -- $1,200 and most without binding. By contrast, how about the Head iSuperShape Speed SW SP 13 (118-68-100) at about half the price. It seems made for higher speed; will it also handle the mashed potatos?


  What can I say, it's an expensive hobby, but there are deals out there.  Since you're new to the sport, and want to advance, you might want to look around for used ski deals.  Look for something 2-5 years old...no more then 10.  Get yourself an solid intermediate ski now, and in a year or two when you progress, add an advanced ski, and in two more years, pick up an expert ski or dedicated powder ski.



Sum1 said:


> Boots -- so complicated. Do you have to jump up to Race boot level ($600-$900) to be assured of good stiffness, less ramp angle, and proper lateral support at higher speeds? Or, are there non-race boots that achieve almost the same support for about $350?



You don't need a race boot.  Do not have any pre-concieved notions about brand/size/color/style when going for a boot fitting.  A great fitting boot is one where you can ski/walk/hike/climb/parking lot pimp/drink at the bar/drive in.


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## Sum1 (May 16, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> One suggestion on demos.
> will allow you to deduct the accumulated amount of money spent on demos from a new ski purchase.



Nice, I've heard of the demo. deduction, but not the Accumulated demo. deduct....i mean, that's phenomenal.  So, you ski on the latest gear for 10 weekends and at the end have approx. $700 (guessing $70 for 2 wkend days) off any 1 of the 10 pair you tried.


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## deadheadskier (May 16, 2011)

Sum1 said:


> Nice, I've heard of the demo. deduction, but not the Accumulated demo. deduct....i mean, that's phenomenal.  So, you ski on the latest gear for 10 weekends and at the end have approx. $700 (guessing $70 for 2 wkend days) off any 1 of the 10 pair you tried.



you know, I don't know if he has a limit.  My guess is though that very few people are going to commit $700 to demoing before purchasing, so he probably hasn't had to deal with that scenario.


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## Sum1 (May 16, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> You don't need a race boot.  Do not have any pre-concieved notions about brand/size/color/style when going for a boot fitting.  A great fitting boot is one where you can ski/walk/hike/climb/parking lot pimp/drink at the bar/drive in.



Root,

Thanks for your experience too; it is very much appreciated.


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## RootDKJ (May 16, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> . Take lessons, watch others, and ski.


I'll add...
Find a group of people to regularly ski with who are better skiers then you and watch their movements as you struggle to keep up with them.

When I first started skiing with the PASR crew, I could barely keep up with them.  But after a few seasons of skiing with them and watching how they ski, I have no problems keeping up today and I've advanced a lot as a skier.  A lot of those guys race, and have given me with technique suggestions that really helped.   Forums are great for meetups.


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## hammer (May 16, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> I'll add...
> Find a group of people to regularly ski with who are better skiers then you and watch their movements as you struggle to keep up with them.
> 
> When I first started skiing with the PASR crew, I could barely keep up with them.  But after a few seasons of skiing with them and watching how they ski, I have no problems keeping up today and I've advanced a lot as a skier.  A lot of those guys race, and have given me with technique suggestions that really helped.   Forums are great for meetups.


+1

Joining the AZ Pats Peak race team this past season was a real learning experience for me...lots of fun as well.


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## snowmonster (May 16, 2011)

_Warning: long meandering post._

First of, welcome to the boards! There's a lot of wisdom on AZ and a lot of stoke to keep those ski fires burning. If you can make it through the shenanigans around here in the summer and make it to when people chomp at the bit in the fall, you'll be fine. I made some good friends among the AZers and I hope you do too.

I'm in my forties and I was born to skiing on Feb. 5, 2005. Because I never grew up around snow and couldn't afford it when I was younger, I had a late start in the ski life. I started out barely knowing how to stand on the snow to doing backcountry tours and seeking glades in the resorts now. Skiing is all about progression and conquering your fears one step at a time.  

When I made up my mind that I wanted to get good at this sport, I made up for lost time  by getting out on the hill as much as I could. Every weekend, I took a bus to a ski area and rented gear and worked  on technique. I only took three ski lessons. I learn best through books and executed the drills while on the hill. We all learn differently. But, if you learn best through books, then I would recommend the following:

- The All Moutain Skier by Mark Elling (good for drills and working on technique)
- Breakthrough on the New Skis by Lito Tejada Flores (good practical on the snow applications)
- Ski the Whole Mountain by the Deslauriers brothers (when you are putting it all together)

I have the Harb books but they didn't do it for me. Of course, to each his own. Then again, if books aren't your bag, then I suggest investing in skiing lessons. Actually, even if books are your game, there is no substitute for a good lesson.

As for gear, I'll echo everyone else and say that it starts with boots. Get a good pair that fits and work with a good bootfitter. You only have one chance to get it right. I would also add that you should also invest in a good pair of footbeds. They make a world of difference. My bootfitter is in Concord, NH. He used to be the AZ bootfitter, Jeff Bokum. I can give you his contact details if you want. The great thing about shopping in the summer is that you get the best prices. The downside is that you have limited choices and sizing. 

Regarding skis, this should be second priority to boots. I echo everyone's point about demoing skis this season. Find a pair you like for your style of skiing and where you ski. When you have zeroed in on the pair you want, start bargain hunting. Based on what you've told us, I think an all-mountain mid-fat is the ski you're looking for. When I started, a 74 waist was consdered mid-fat. Seven years later, mid-fats are between 80 and 90 underfoot. 

Trust technology. Perhaps because I got into the sport late, I am more open to new technologies than those who have been in it all their lives and, because I need to shorten the learning curve, I tend to rely on technology to give me an assist (think of golfers reaching for the titanium driver with the biggest head). That said, if you can demo a ski with some early rise in the tip (that is, tip rocker), do it. Rockered skis used to be just a powder/West Coast thing. However, small amounts of rocker with traditional camber underfoot might help you along. I ski on a fat rockered ski in the East and it has become my go-to ski. Of course, this is all subjective and rocker may not be for you. Let your body tell you what gear is best for you.

Good luck on your skiing journey. May you be rewarded as much as I have. May your turns be many and powder-filled.


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## gmcunni (May 16, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Find a group of people to regularly ski with who are better skiers then you and watch their movements as you struggle to keep up with them.


:beer:
i think this pretty much applies to everything in life.  find someone better and try to keep up.


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## Sum1 (May 16, 2011)

snowmonster said:


> _Warning: long meandering post._
> 
> First of, welcome to the boards!
> Skiing is all about progression and conquering your fears one step at a time.
> ...



Mr. Snow,  I thank you very much for your thoughtful post.


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## Cannonball (May 19, 2011)

There is a lot of great gear buying info in this thread.  Use it.

But....none of it is actually critical to your goal.  People have been skiing Superstar (and MUCH harder terrain) 'in balance and under control' for decades decades before any of the described gear was even invented.  Just a few years ago it would be incomprehensible to even ask this question.......


Sum1 said:


> Skis -- Seems like the stiffer skis built for higher speed have waist sizes in the 60’s mm range.  If I buy skis of this waist size will I be able to get through late season wet heavy knee-bashing mounds of New England Oatmeal and Mashed Potatos?  Or, will I need a 70’s mm waist to handle this?



Work on skills.  Have fun.  Use the best gear you can afford.


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## Sum1 (May 20, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> ....none of it is actually critical to your goal.  People have been skiing Superstar (and MUCH harder terrain) 'in balance and under control' for decades decades before any of the described gear was even invented.
> 
> Work on skills.  Have fun.  Use the best gear you can afford.



Thanks Cannonball.
The macro perspective cannot be stressed enough to a beginner such as myself; with all the aero-space tech., and marketing, and hundreds of models to choose from.


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## bigbog (May 29, 2011)

Well I'll add something as long as you're in that zone of amped beyond belief interest.
Try to get started with some simple exercises....toning up your lower body and work on your balance.
Then let a bootfitter with a knowledge of alignment go to worik.  Getting footbeds really helps to stabilize ones' foot in the boot = helps to achieve a great fit.  Footbeds will help with your balance as well as getting a great fitting boot...and that'll help your skiing = staying in balance.  
$.01

*Experienced at trying to improve....


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## Sum1 (May 30, 2011)

bigbog said:


> Try to get started with some simple exercises....toning up your lower body and work on your balance.



Hi BigBog,

You're reading my mind.....I'm the type who doesn't have any bad habits; but, doesn't have any particularly good ones, either.
This is about to change --- re: the good habits.  
I appreciate the advice about the footbeds too.


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## bigbog (Jun 7, 2011)

Sidebar from Cannonball's...
IF you do have some pronation in action...leg exercise/toning could be even more valuable(just a guess)...cuz as we improve our muscular balance around the skeleton, from hips on down to ankles = there seems to be less of an extreme balancing act for our tendons in our feet.
Nothing scientific in that, but it does make a difference in _shopping for_ the correct boot shellsize..


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