# Jay Peak vs. Sugarbush?



## gregnye (Nov 23, 2013)

Hello again!! I decided to stop back into Alpinezone now that winter is here!! :grin:

And now I have a question: Usually I go with my family and friends to Jay Peak on Martin Luther King jr. Weekend. I have been going on that weekend for many years! However, with the recent lack of expansion and focus on base-area development--and me getting tired of Jay, I have been looking into going to Sugarbush instead!

So how does Sugarbush compare?  Terrain-wise? Crowd-wise? Glade-wise? (I don't care about the nightlife or terrain-parks lol). Is it the same atmosphere as Jay?

Thanks!! :lol:

EDIT: Sorry I meant Sugarbush not Sugarloaf. Been a long day--should have figured I'd make that mistake lol


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## fbrissette (Nov 23, 2013)

Sugarloaf or Sugarbush ???


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## ScottySkis (Nov 23, 2013)

Sugarbush has glades and great terrain, not as much natural snow as Jay but no one gets that much snow. Snow making at the Bush is kind of weak so after rai+ it might take longer for them to repair, I haven't skiied Jay since I was 10 so can't tell you to much. Of North Vermont places I love the Bush.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2013)

On a holiday weekend I would go with sugarbush over jay.  You can avoid midday crowds by skiing over on mount ellen


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## canobie#1 (Nov 23, 2013)

I am confused on weather or not it's Jay vs Bush or Loaf vs Bush but either way Sugarbush wins it for me!


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## crank (Nov 23, 2013)

Sugarbush has much better trail skiing and some very challenging , classic New England style trails on Castlerock and also Paradise.  These runs are Steeper with a longer sustained pitch than anything at Jay. Also if you have never skied Rumble...  A good amount of trees and glades but no one in VT can really equal Jay in those areas.  I am guessing crowds/lines would be about the same.  More lodging, dining and drinking options around Sugarbush as well.


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## Cornhead (Nov 23, 2013)

I skied in Vermont for years before finally skiing the Mad River Valley, Sugarbush, and MRG. I say go for it, it's a really cool area. If your family is all skiers, a day at MRG is great. Despite its "Ski It If You Can" reputation, it's a great family mountain. The line at the single may be a bit much on a holiday weekend however. They are virtually right next to each other, 3 miles from Mt Ellen, I believe.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2013)

crank said:


> Sugarbush has much better trail skiing and some very challenging , classic New England style trails on Castlerock and also Paradise.  These runs are Steeper with a longer sustained pitch than anything at Jay. Also if you have never skied Rumble...  A good amount of trees and glades but no one in VT can really equal Jay in those areas.  I am guessing crowds/lines would be about the same.  More lodging, dining and drinking options around Sugarbush as well.



+1

I was a Sugarbusher for many years. It's got more variety and more vert. I'd say ski Ellen Saturday, LP Sunday, and whichever you want Monday. If there is enough snow, laps in the woods of Slide Brook is always a treat.


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## goldsbar (Nov 23, 2013)

Sugarbush is awesome and ranks right up there with some of the better Western resorts if you're into the narrow bump trail and woods thing - when it's in.  Problem is, it's VT, so it can be great 2 days before and half melted out by MLK weekend.  Last year was a partial disaster.  Big crowds but lifts on wind hold.  I'm no expert on the place as I only go 1 or 2 times/season, but they seem super conservative on wind holds and lifts seem to somehow break down a lot.  Did I say a lot?  Sugarbush - hello.  Overall crowds aren't bad at all when everything is open but add in wind holds or limited terrain and it's a bit agonizing.

That said, when it's good, it's great.  The flatbread pizza place is well worth the wait.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2013)

goldsbar said:


> Sugarbush is awesome and ranks right up there with some of the better Western resorts if you're into the narrow bump trail and woods thing - when it's in.  Problem is, it's VT, so it can be great 2 days before and half melted out by MLK weekend.  Last year was a partial disaster.  Big crowds but lifts on wind hold.  I'm no expert on the place as I only go 1 or 2 times/season, but they seem super conservative on wind holds and lifts seem to somehow break down a lot.  Did I say a lot?  Sugarbush - hello.  Overall crowds aren't bad at all when everything is open but add in wind holds or limited terrain and it's a bit agonizing.
> 
> That said, when it's good, it's great.  The flatbread pizza place is well worth the wait.



I agree that Sugarbush does have a lot of windholds, historically, but not as many as Jay.  And as for the lifts the problems come and go.  Some seasons I was there we had no problems.  Other times it seemed that North Ridge, Super Bravo, both or other lifts would have problems.  It just happens.  

I'm not sure I'd compare it with skiing out west though.  That is not really a fair comparison.  

And the previous comment about snowmaking is accurate.  They aren't really fast nor do they have the capabilities of Sunday River.  But they generally covered things pretty well and the grooming was usually pretty good.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 23, 2013)

gregnye said:


> However, with the recent lack of expansion and focus on base-area development--and me getting tired of Jay, I have been looking into going to Sugarbush instead!


Well if lack of expansion & a focus on base area development is your criteria you'll find pretty much the same thing at both areas. If you're just tired of Jay then try something different.


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## Zand (Nov 23, 2013)

It ultimately depends on what kind of skiing you like. If you enjoy good trail skiing and don't mind a reduced chance of having good snow for the trip, Sugarbush wins. If you enjoy the woods and want about a 95% chance of having good snow, Jay wins. When I was at school at LSC, I had a Sugarbush pass the first year I was up there, then after that I wondered why I was stupid enough to not just go with Jay from the beginning.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2013)

I hit Sugarbush for the first time in years last year (WM ticket) and was actually quite impressed with their tree skiing.  

No, there's not anywhere near as MUCH glade skiing as there is at Jay Peak, but I thought it was more of a natural tree skiing (i.e. often harder) experience IMO.  And I didnt even get to hit the Slide Brook woods due to time constraints, and I hear they're great.


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## xlr8r (Nov 24, 2013)

Go to the Bush IMO.  It is my favorite place to ski in the east,  i just don't get there as much as I would like.  It has more terrain and more variety than Jay, and some of the best classic natural New England style trails anywhere, just not the same caliber of glades.  

The construction at the base of the Bush is much more restrained than Jay in size and scale, but not everyone loves the farming theme.  It has become a very nice and well layed out base area at Lincoln peak, where Glen Ellen is a lot like what Stateside at Jay used to be.  Even if there are a lot of people there, Glen Ellen is always uncrowded


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## HowieT2 (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm always at sugarbush, but only skied jay 4 days last year, so take this for what it's worth.
  I think there is more open gladed tree skiing at jay, but sugarbush is more spread out, and slide brook can be a fun adventure.
jay has the waterpark and great base lodging.  Sugarbush has waitsfield with more good food/beer

mlk weekend is dicey weather wise.

if you have any questions about sb, don't hesitate to pm me.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 24, 2013)

There's always MRG.

I've heard they have natural cut old style New England trails. Rumor has it they also have glade skiing.


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## dlague (Nov 25, 2013)

Sugarbush is certainly bigger!  There are certainly more people which seems to lead to scraped of trails.  Jay Peak has many Canadians and that Monday is more than likely lighter at Jay Peak as compared to Sugarbush since there will be no Canadian factor since it is not a holiday for them. 

I think it depends if we get a January thaw.  We go to Sugarbush that weekend since it is the RSNE two fer Saturday tour stop and then hit Jay Peak with a 2 fer on Sunday.

Last year was weird at Sugarbush and the conditions not very nice due to unusually warm temps (50 degrees), there was an inversion 30 at base 50 at summit.


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## powdahbonz (Nov 25, 2013)

*Jay Cloud*

I like everything about Jay, the town, proximity to other areas if you want to jump the border to Mt Sutton, Owls Head, lotsa pros/less cons




dlague said:


> Sugarbush is certainly bigger!  There are certainly more people which seems to lead to scraped of trails.  Jay Peak has many Canadians and that Monday is more than likely lighter at Jay Peak as compared to Sugarbush since there will be no Canadian factor since it is not a holiday for them.
> 
> I think it depends if we get a January thaw.  We go to Sugarbush that weekend since it is the RSNE two fer Saturday tour stop and then hit Jay Peak with a 2 fer on Sunday.
> 
> Last year was weird at Sugarbush and the conditions not very nice due to unusually warm temps (50 degrees), there was an inversion 30 at base 50 at summit.


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## dlague (Nov 25, 2013)

powdahbonz said:


> I like everything about Jay, the town, proximity to other areas if you want to jump the border to Mt Sutton, Owls Head, lotsa pros/less cons



+1  I grew up on Jay Peak, skied it, hiked it and even made snow on it - many years ago!  Good point about proximity to Owls Head and Sutton


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## gregnye (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks everyone!! And sorry that I didn't respond earlier--I've been quite busy lately :???:

I have convinced everyone in my family to go to Sugarbush instead of Jay! So mission accomplished! What are particular trails that stand out that I shouldn't miss (preferably black diamonds and double-black diamonds). From the map, I really like the look of the trail "Lower F.I.S." which seems to go all the way off into nowhere (my kind of trail!). Is this one natural snow only? How is it?

Thanks everyone!


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## canobie#1 (Dec 1, 2013)

The bush is better.  There's a lot more to do after hours when the sun goes down in mad river, better variety of trails and faster lifts.  Jay is going to far with their expansion crap, sugarbush cut of at a great time.  Nice base but not overwhelming.  Jay is annoying me with the expansion.  They act like they still care about the locals and die bards but in the end, all they want is the stupid tourists money.

As for trails, don't miss:
Middle earth (most underrated trail IMO)
And everything else on castle rock
Ripcord
Spillsville
Paradise
The mall
lower fis
FIS
All their glades (they're awesome)


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2013)

gregnye said:


> From the map, I really like the look of the trail "Lower F.I.S." which seems to go all the way off into nowhere (my kind of trail!). Is this one natural snow only? How is it?



Lower FIS is natural snow only. I wouldn't rate it as a black trail but it is a long beautiful intermediate run when it has good snow. One pitfall is that it's a long traverse with walking/skating involved back to the base area at the bottom. Otherwise it's one of my favorite trails on Mt. Ellen. I'd ski it more often if it weren't for the long traverse back to the base area. I've always hoped they'd put a lift in & develop that side of the mountain more but who knows it'll probably ruin what's there now.

edit: In addition to the trails mentioned above I would also recommend Tumbler & Hammerhead which start at mid- mountain just to the right & left at the summit of the lower GMX chair at Mt. Ellen. Very rarely hear people mention them but I happen to think they are two of the best trails at Mt. Ellen. They are bumped up naturally (no seeded bumps here) & never see grooming. Once again they are natural snow only trails.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 1, 2013)

But....it's the type of trail that offers a full range of variety.  Secluded, steep in parts, bumped up in some areas but always a way around of that's not your style.  Natural snow makes it one of the best choices for late pow and if you know where the runout is you can get enough speed to knock off a good portion of the traverse.  I'm still trying to find a way to cutoff the angle to the traverse through the woods, but haven't been really successful so far.  All in all a great trail!


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## xwhaler (Dec 1, 2013)

Rumble and Middle Earth for sure...Cotillion is also great. Egan's woods on LP is also really fun.
Enjoy....Sugarbush is an incredible mtn


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## canobie#1 (Dec 1, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> Rumble and Middle Earth for sure...Cotillion is also great. Egan's woods on LP is also really fun.
> Enjoy....Sugarbush is an incredible mtn


 AMEN


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2013)

If it's crowded at Lincoln Peak don't be afraid to use the Valley House chair which rarely has a long lift line. Lot's of good terrain off of this lift. I have spent a whole day just skiing terrain off this lift alone. Trails previously mentioned such as the Mall & Egan's Woods are off this chair. In addition you have Steins Run & Twist which are expert runs not previously mentioned. Moonshine is also another good trail that's rated intermediate but skis more like an expert trail. If you want cruisers you have Spring Fling & the trail to the outside of that (forget the name) which offer some of the best intermediate cruising terrain at Sugarbush. Just a suggestion.

edit: (forget the name) = lower Snowball.


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## Lostone (Dec 1, 2013)

*Trouble with Sugarbush is there is never any snow!*

Made the turn on Murphy's, last March and saw the pic from October.

The pic from March 29:



And from October:


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## HowieT2 (Dec 1, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Lower FIS is natural snow only. I wouldn't rate it as a black trail but it is a long beautiful intermediate run when it has good snow. One pitfall is that it's a long traverse with walking/skating involved back to the base area at the bottom. Otherwise it's one of my favorite trails on Mt. Ellen. I'd ski it more often if it weren't for the long traverse back to the base area. I've always hoped they'd put a lift in & develop that side of the mountain more but who knows it'll probably ruin what's there now.
> 
> edit: In addition to the trails mentioned above I would also recommend Tumbler & Hammerhead which start at mid- mountain just to the right & left at the summit of the lower GMX chair at Mt. Ellen. Very rarely hear people mention them but I happen to think they are two of the best trails at Mt. Ellen. They are bumped up naturally (no seeded bumps here) & never see grooming. Once again they are natural snow only trails.



Lower fis has good woods leading into it and through it.  The trail and woods are obviously conditions dependent.  The run out is long and and exerting, so I like to do it as my last run heading into lunch.


how many days are u skiing?


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## skifree (Dec 1, 2013)

Yup.  No snow at the bush. I wouldn't go


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> how many days are u skiing?



2 days this season so far, planning 3 more this week. Non at the Bush planned yet but I'm sure I'll get in a few before the season's out.


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## Newpylong (Dec 1, 2013)

Sugarbush hands down.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 1, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> 2 days this season so far, planning 3 more this week. Non at the Bush planned yet but I'm sure I'll get in a few before the season's out.



Sorry, I was asking the guy coming up for mlk weekend.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> Sorry, I was asking the guy coming up for mlk weekend.


That's alright. I'll be driving right by the Bush Fri. on 100. Plan is to hit Stowe.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 1, 2013)

So I'm a bit biased, but hitting Slide Brook, Exterminator Woods (area), North Lynx (don't overlook the great vert and expansive terrain) and finding stashes on Castelrock is tops in my book.  Lots of skiing, little crowds and a great vibe in the Mad River Valley makes it tops for me.


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## canobie#1 (Dec 1, 2013)

How is exterminator and the exterminator in the woods?  Never explored it


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## skifree (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm actually debating $40 jay peak tickets vs cheap lodging at the bush with full price tix the weekend after mlk
. Probably let weather dictate my decision.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 1, 2013)

Some of the best glades on the mountain.  But don't tell anyone....>:lol::lol:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> How is exterminator and the exterminator in the woods?  Never explored it



Exterminator tends to get good snow in it...thanks to drifting and its elevation and exposure.  A fun run.  Nice and long.  It has a few steep drops, but overall good pitch.  Exterminator Woods: it's OK.  I never got too excited about it personally.  Just don't go over the backside.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

...and I see talk about Lower FIS.  A real gem for sure.  As is Spinout.  Au naturale experience.  Nice consistent pitch, great narrow trail feel, seclusion, and a nice long run.  When Win took over they used to do early season at North, and they did a good job maintaining that trail so that they could open it ASAP.  That was a nice treat.  Yes, the runout is a pisser, but that's what makes it special and so secluded.  And it's not THAT bad.  I wish that there were more trails like Lower FIS personally.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2013)

sugarbushskier said:


> Some of the best glades on the mountain.  But don't tell anyone....>:lol::lol:



+1


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## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Exterminator tends to get good snow in it...thanks to drifting and its elevation and exposure.  A fun run.  Nice and long.  It has a few steep drops, but overall good pitch.  Exterminator Woods: it's OK.  I never got too excited about it personally.  Just don't go over the backside.



Dont know if you caught this from another thread, but I did go off the backside once.

surprised you are not a bigger fan of the exterminator woods.  great snow with northern exposure.  easy to do laps via the north ridge.  and extra special treats for those willing to explore a little.  my go to woods run 2-3 days after last snow.

but fyi-if you are exploring best if you are with someone who knows because even if you avoid going off the backside, there are some impenetrable pine trees you can find yourself stuck in.  been there done that too.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> ...and I see talk about Lower FIS.  A real gem for sure.  As is Spinout.  Au naturale experience.  Nice consistent pitch, great narrow trail feel, seclusion, and a nice long run.  When Win took over they used to do early season at North, and they did a good job maintaining that trail so that they could open it ASAP.  That was a nice treat.  Yes, the runout is a pisser, but that's what makes it special and so secluded.  And it's not THAT bad.  I wish that there were more trails like Lower FIS personally.



because of the runout, lower FIS gets less traffic than the rest of mt ellen, such that it is.  so if you are looking for an ungroomed natural snow trail, you are likely to find good conditions after others have been skied off.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> Dont know if you caught this from another thread, but I did go off the backside once.



Did not know that. 



> surprised you are not a bigger fan of the exterminator woods. great snow with northern exposure. easy to do laps via the north ridge. and extra special treats for those willing to explore a little. my go to woods run 2-3 days after last snow.
> 
> but fyi-if you are exploring best if you are with someone who knows because even if you avoid going off the backside, there are some impenetrable pine trees you can find yourself stuck in. been there done that too.



The seasons I was there I was luke warm about Exterminator Woods because I've been stuck in those same woods. Also, they had extended the glade down below the old cross-cut trail/road and the clearing suddenly stopped leaving some nasty bushwhacking. 

Elbow Woods were fun, but they get skied out pretty fast.

Overall the Sugarbush Woods get a lot of traffic.  I enjoyed checking out some "off-the-map" varieties that could be good.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 2, 2013)

You have to ski with a local to find the good tree skiing at Sugarbush. Many of the entrances are hidden & the trees don't open up until you get a few turns in. They cleared out a lot of them two seasons ago, the mountain even advertised it at the time but you won't find them on any map. I get to ski several times a season with a friend that has worked for the mountain for over 20 years. You'd be surprised what's out there that the majority of people don't know about.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 2, 2013)

sugarbushskier said:


> if you know where the runout is you can get enough speed to knock off a good portion of the traverse.



Just let-em rip when you get under the Slidebrook chair...:wink:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Just let-em rip when you get under the Slidebrook chair...:wink:




Yep, something like that.  I usually get in a few more turns to that little knoll and then tuck to the left and up the traverse.  It's amazing how much the original trail has grown in. My understanding is that it used to go down almost to German Flats Road (or the cross-road above it).


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> You have to ski with a local to find the good tree skiing at Sugarbush. Many of the entrances are hidden & the trees don't open up until you get a few turns in. They cleared out a lot of them two seasons ago, the mountain even advertised it at the time but you won't find them on any map. I get to ski several times a season with a friend that has worked for the mountain for over 20 years. You'd be surprised what's out there that the majority of people don't know about.



Very true.  Obviously any tree clearing after 2011 is something I personally have not seen, but generally there is a lot of room once you get out beyond the usual suspects.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> My understanding is that it used to go down almost to German Flats Road (or the cross-road above it).



It would be nice if it did. Catching the shuttle would be easier than doing the traverse.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> It would be nice if it did. Catching the shuttle would be easier than doing the traverse.



Good point.  I think that there might be a house or two in the way now....


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## WWF-VT (Dec 2, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> It would be nice if it did. Catching the shuttle would be easier than doing the traverse.



If you build up speed the traverse/run out of Lower FIS is a lot more efficient then the run out to German Flats Rd and catching a shuttle.  I do a lot of hiking at Mt Ellen and there is an alternate path with more pitch that roughly parallels the last strecth of Lower FIS, connects with Snowflake and gets you back to the SunnyD lift


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## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> You have to ski with a local to find the good tree skiing at Sugarbush. Many of the entrances are hidden & the trees don't open up until you get a few turns in. They cleared out a lot of them two seasons ago, the mountain even advertised it at the time but you won't find them on any map. I get to ski several times a season with a friend that has worked for the mountain for over 20 years. You'd be surprised what's out there that the majority of people don't know about.



True.


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## gostan (Dec 2, 2013)

I would just go to Jay.  IN bounds at the bush gets skied off before you can park your SUV and the sugarbush locals will never show you the real tree skiing.


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## crank (Dec 2, 2013)

lol.  Sugarbush for trails with some trees.  Jay for trees with some trails.


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## watts (Dec 3, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I didnt even get to hit the Slide Brook woods due to time constraints, and I hear they're great.



Slide Brook, while very nice, isn't particularly difficult. The pitches aren't especially steep and the trees are generously cut. I think they designed it to accomodate as wide a range of skiers as possible. Definitely still worth trying at least once, though.


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## watts (Dec 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I didnt even get to hit the Slide Brook woods due to time constraints, and I hear they're great.



Slide Brook, while very nice, is not particularly difficult. The pitches aren't especially steep, and the trees are generously cut. I think it was designed to accommodate as wide a range of skiers as possible. Still definitely worth trying at least once, though.


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## gostan (Dec 6, 2013)

watts said:


> Slide Brook, while very nice, is not particularly difficult. The pitches aren't especially steep, and the trees are generously cut. I think it was designed to accommodate as wide a range of skiers as possible. Still definitely worth trying at least once, though.


That is exactly what we want you to think.


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