# What's up with Maple Valley?



## Ski Diva (Aug 19, 2010)

I drove by the defunct Maple Valley ski area in Dummerston, VT,  yesterday, and it looked like there was some work being done on the base lodge. I know it was for sale a while ago. Anyone know what's going on?


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## Glenn (Aug 19, 2010)

That's just a few miles from our place in Dummerston. They've been doing some digging behind the base lodge for about a year or so. Not sure what they're doing. You used to be able to see the old groomer they had there...and a few fan style snowmakers. I haven't seen either for quite some time. 

I beleive they keep the lodge heated or at the very least, above freezing. When we drive by, early in the AM on our way to Mount Snow, you can see some heat waves coming out of a metal chimney. 

It's been shut for so long, I don't know if the lifts could be salvaged at this point. It's sad to see the place just fade away.


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## MrMagic (Aug 19, 2010)

they have been digging behind the lodge for quite some time, they replaced some sort of water or sewage pipe, glenn is right they do keep the place somewhat heated, the snowmakers and groomer are in  the storage shed, the place is really fallen apart with big time trail erosion and most the equipment destroyed. They are doing some logging on the skiers left of the mnt very close to the summit double last time I checked. As far as I know its still for sale, sad to see the place fall apart


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## Ski Diva (Aug 19, 2010)

Looked to me like they were painting the base lodge, too.


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## Glenn (Aug 19, 2010)

If I ever hit the lottery, I'd buy that place and open it up for the locals. 

I'll try and do some digging. One of our neighbors is a contractor and I'll see him this weekend. He may know the low down. Another neighbor works for the town; I bet she'll have some insight. 

A lot of our neighbors used to ski there back in the day. They said it was a great place to go. It's how many of the weekenders up there ended up buying a place on the road we're on.


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## MrMagic (Aug 19, 2010)

Ski Diva said:


> Looked to me like they were painting the base lodge, too.



well if its still for sale its a good idea to keep it lokking as nice as possable. glenn if u do win the lotto give me a job spinning the t-bar


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## Glenn (Aug 20, 2010)

MrMagic said:


> well if its still for sale its a good idea to keep it lokking as nice as possable. glenn if u do win the lotto give me a job spinning the t-bar



You bet! That's the least I could do.


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## bvibert (Aug 20, 2010)

MrMagic said:


> glenn if u do win the lotto give me a job spinning the t-bar





Glenn said:


> You bet! That's the least I could do.



Sign me up too!


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## wa-loaf (Aug 20, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Sign me up too!



I would like the position of Official Snow Tester please. I'm willing to get up early on any powder days to report on the conditions. Thanks.


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## threecy (Aug 20, 2010)

I was given a personal tour of the area years ago (after they had closed)...the lodge, if I recall, was used briefly after the ski area closed as a bar.  I haven't driven by in a few years, but there used to be a sawmill operating out of the parking lot (across the road).

The chairlifts have seen better days...at this point it would likely take sigificant investment to get them to pass inspection - new cable, etc.

The area was unique in that the lifts, etc. operated off a large diesel generator or two.

Seeing the facilities and knowing some of the achillies heels of the area, it would require work similar to that done at Crotched to get this one going again - it's definitely not as turn-key as some other NELSAP rebirths over the years (not that those were simple turn key startups), such as Tenney, Ascutney, Haystack, etc.


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## AdironRider (Aug 21, 2010)

I dont know the terrain well, but throw a cheap used double on there, couple tbars and facelift the lodge and you're good to go. 

Hell, screw the tbars and run it with a solid money making f&b department and you could have something. One small lift and lodge couldnt be that expensive. Think dive bar running a generator all day plus some extra, dirt cheap seasonal employees. Say, ticket lady, 2 lifties, 2 volunteer patrol. Groomer if you so desire, but its one of the lifties roomates who needs a job. That way you dont pay overtime and maintain a staff average wage of under 10 bones. Done. 

Cheap booze and eats will always make money, throw a couple a frames out back for lodging. I think it could be done for a mill, maybe 1.5.

Sell a couple hundred, maybe a thousand lift tickets and you pay those seasonal workers salaries, bonus from school programs.  Season passes for the local dirtbags can make up a snowmaking budget. Get a green run, base area, and one run from the top covered, rest natural.


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## AdironRider (Aug 21, 2010)

http://www.summitliftco.net/images/Used_Double_Chairlift_For_Sale.pdf

This ones only 150k canuckistani pesos, Its practically on sale! 

Maybe you get one of the paid for groomers working again for say, 50k. Spruce the lodge for say 100, man thats steep, but I guess worth it. Stock up the bar and whatnot for 20k, that still leaves like 600 grand for lift installation and some startup capital. 1 million sure would be nice.


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## riverc0il (Aug 22, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I dont know the terrain well, but throw a cheap used double on there, couple tbars and facelift the lodge and you're good to go.
> 
> Hell, screw the tbars and run it with a solid money making f&b department and you could have something. One small lift and lodge couldnt be that expensive. Think dive bar running a generator all day plus some extra, dirt cheap seasonal employees. Say, ticket lady, 2 lifties, 2 volunteer patrol. Groomer if you so desire, but its one of the lifties roomates who needs a job. That way you dont pay overtime and maintain a staff average wage of under 10 bones. Done.
> 
> ...


This is about what Magic is working on currently. The owner sells tickets and bumps chairs sometimes because they run so bare bones on staff. It is a great feel having the owner that involved but it isn't enough to make an area long term successful. This type of place does not have the terrain that Magic has to make grooming optional. Even Magic can't survive without good snow making (see their improvements thread). threecy is right that this place would need the Crotched treatment to get going again.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I dont know the terrain well, but throw a cheap used double on there, couple tbars and facelift the lodge and you're good to go.
> 
> Hell, screw the tbars and run it with a solid money making f&b department and you could have something. One small lift and lodge couldnt be that expensive. Think dive bar running a generator all day plus some extra, dirt cheap seasonal employees. Say, ticket lady, 2 lifties, 2 volunteer patrol. Groomer if you so desire, but its one of the lifties roomates who needs a job. That way you dont pay overtime and maintain a staff average wage of under 10 bones. Done.
> 
> ...


 
This would have worked five or so years ago shortly after they closed.  But because of the years without use, you have a lot of work to get it going again.


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## witch hobble (Aug 22, 2010)

Why, it is still "Vermont's Best Kept Secret".  That is what.


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## bigbog (Aug 22, 2010)

I thought that to add to the dram...as well as making the "_follow-up_" books no-brainahs,,,you'd be thinking about owning Diva..?


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## Glenn (Aug 23, 2010)

Sweet...I've got a workforce lined up! 

Here's the latest from a neighbor. This is what he knew about things. 
Apparently, it's owned by an individual. It had briefly opened up again...but a young girl fell off the lift because she didn't put the bar down. A lawsuit took place, and they had to do a lot of work to the lifts to get them recertified by the insurance company. It never opened back up again. 

They've been doing work out back to what he think is the septic system. Also, they've been replacing some railings and whatnot around the lodge. He thought just general upkeep so things looked nice. 

Oh, and regarding the sawmill...you can still see (or could) a sign for a timber company that's near the entrance to the parkinglot on the other side of Rt30.


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## threecy (Aug 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I dont know the terrain well, but throw a cheap used double on there, couple tbars and facelift the lodge and you're good to go.



Not if you intend to have any snowmaking.  Their water came from the river - I'm pretty sure they lost their grandfathered rights a few years ago by not operating for 5 (?) seasons.


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## tree_skier (Aug 23, 2010)

I have heard (rumor but from a reliable source) that it has been purchased by two Vermont snowboarding icon's to be turned into a park ala Whaleback.  It is no longer listed on Granger's real estate site who had it for sale.


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## Glenn (Aug 23, 2010)

tree_skier said:


> I have heard (rumor but from a reliable source) that it has been purchased by two Vermont snowboarding icon's to be turned into a park ala Whaleback.  It is no longer listed on Granger's real estate site who had it for sale.



I did some digging on my part. According to the town records, it's still owned by the guy my neighbor said owned it. I "think" he's owned it for a number of years.


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## threecy (Aug 23, 2010)

Glenn said:


> I did some digging on my part. According to the town records, it's still owned by the guy my neighbor said owned it. I "think" he's owned it for a number of years.



Last name similar to that of a automaker still?


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## Molsonatslu (Aug 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Season passes for the *local dirtbags *can make up a snowmaking budget.



As somone who grew up in Dummerston and learned to ski at MV I find your characterization of the locals pretty offensive.  Try to have a little respect for the people who make your vacation possible...


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## twinplanx (Aug 23, 2010)

Molsonatslu said:


> As somone who grew up in Dummerston and learned to ski at MV I find your characterization of the locals pretty offensive.  Try to have a little respect for the people who make your vacation possible...



Really! Whats up with that?


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## Ski Diva (Aug 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Season passes for the local dirtbags can make up a snowmaking budget.



Yeah, what the heck is up with that? I live in Vermont, myself!



bigbog said:


> I thought that to add to the dram...as well as making the "_follow-up_" books no-brainahs,,,you'd be thinking about owning Diva..?



Uh, if I had the bucks, believe me, I would. BTW, the next Ski Diva Mystery, FADE TO WHITE, comes out January 4.


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## bobbutts (Aug 23, 2010)

tree_skier said:


> I have heard (rumor but from a reliable source) that it has been purchased by two Vermont snowboarding icon's to be turned into a park ala Whaleback.  It is no longer listed on Granger's real estate site who had it for sale.



Whaleback has hardly been turned into a park.  They do have a park and market to young new-school types, but 90% of the hill is the same as it ever was.  The owner, Evan Dybvig was an Olympic mogul skier.


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## Glenn (Aug 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> Last name similar to that of a automaker still?



Correct! The info I found was from 2009.


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## Glenn (Aug 23, 2010)

Whoa...totaly missed the comment on "the locals". That's not the case. Everyone we've met out there has been really really really nice. The contractor neighbor went above and beyond with the job he did...even went back to the house to leave a key out for the cable co. Another neighbor cut up a tree of ours that fell over his driveway..then slit it and gave us the wood. We're only up there two or so days a week, but I feel I know those neighbors better than the ones we have in CT.


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## ctenidae (Aug 24, 2010)




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## Glenn (Aug 24, 2010)

Nice find on the map!


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## ctenidae (Aug 24, 2010)

Glenn said:


> I did some digging on my part. According to the town records, it's still owned by the guy my neighbor said owned it. I "think" he's owned it for a number of years.



As I recall, the guy owns a horse farm nearby, too that his daughter runs. His two sons live in Florida and do real estate development (or did 3-4 years ago). Looked back then like they were rationalizing dad's estate and selling off as many pieces as they could.


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## Glenn (Aug 25, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> As I recall, the guy owns a horse farm nearby, too that his daughter runs. His two sons live in Florida and do real estate development (or did 3-4 years ago). Looked back then like they were rationalizing dad's estate and selling off as many pieces as they could.



Yep...there is a horse farm. The same neighbor and I were talking about ATVing and he mentioned the horse farm being owned by the Maple Valley guy. Maybe it's in his daughter's name. I didn't see any other property under the Maple Valley last name in the town records.


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## soulseller (Aug 25, 2010)

Good thread, I was wondering what was going on with this place when I visited it last month.


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## Glenn (Aug 25, 2010)

Sweet pic! And nice bike! I love how those sound; wonderful engineering.


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## Glenn (Oct 11, 2010)

We've driven by Maple Valley these past two weekends. It looks like the lodge has been repainted/touched up. Also, the sign in front of the lodge looks touched up. It looks like they've painted the lower drive units (bull wheel ect) and the first tower of each chairlift. Also, they've mowed the lower portion of the ski trails.


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## billski (Oct 11, 2010)

Molsonatslu said:


> As somone who grew up in Dummerston and learned to ski at MV I find your characterization of the locals pretty offensive.  Try to have a little respect for the people who make your vacation possible...



+2


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## billski (Oct 24, 2010)

So I drove past MV on the way home from Magic.  
Here are some pics.  Suffice to say whoever painted the lift bases wasn't interested in quality.  They spray painted as far as they could reach, and got it on the sheaves and the haul rope, not something one would normally do.
The lift itself looked like it would never pass inspection, something I heard from others today.


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## roark (Oct 24, 2010)

^^^ WTF????? Some overzealous realtor?


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)




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## Glenn (Oct 25, 2010)

Nice pics Bill. 

It's getting pretty grown in as well.


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## billski (Oct 25, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Nice pics Bill.
> 
> It's getting pretty grown in as well.



The liftline is grown in quite heavily.  The ski-able base area was recently mowed as was previously reported.  The online for-sale ad is no longer operating, but all the "sprucing up" hints at prettying the window dressing for a sale.


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## Glenn (Oct 25, 2010)

I really hope someone buys it...with the plan of rehabbing it. Or at the very least, fixing one lift and running it occationally....weekends, after school, vacations ect. It would make a great local area.


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## Glenn (Feb 13, 2011)

There's been a bit of action at Maple Valley lately. Over the past few weeks, I noticed a lot of snowcat tracks. There's usually some ski/board tracks...and maybe a snowmobile track or too. But never snowcat tracks. We also saw the yellow snowcat idling near one of the lifts on Friday AM as we went to Mt Snow. There's a newer sign out front advertising "Bootsy's Grill" which is up Rt. 30 a few miles. There's also an ad under that for the stables the owner of Maple Valley owns.


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## Glenn (Feb 27, 2011)

Another update. Drove by this weekend and noticed all the chairs off the north double have been removed. The chairs are laid out at the base of the lift. Wonder what's going on.


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## bvibert (Feb 27, 2011)

All the chairs? That would seem to indicate that they ran the lift. I'm surprised that it still worked after all of that down time... I wonder if they're tearing down the lift, or attempting to get it ready for inspection?


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## MrMagic (Feb 27, 2011)

the people over on snowjournal have also noticed the same. one said they say the generator ( to what i dont know) running bleching smoke. i do know they do keep the base lodge somewhat heated in  the winter and the last time i was up there there was logging going on to the left of the mtn someone needs to stop in and ask whats going on


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## threecy (Feb 27, 2011)

MrMagic said:


> one said they say the generator ( to what i dont know)



The area was run on generators.


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## Glenn (Feb 28, 2011)

I'll try and get some pics this weekend. It looked like all the chairs to me. From what I could see from Route 30, the haul rope was empty...no chairs hangining. I wonder if they sold the lift? or maybe the chairs?


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## Glenn (Mar 6, 2011)

All chairs look to be off the other chair lift as well. The snow cat is parked near the generator. I wasn't able to stop and take pics. I'm kinda hoping when I'm able to do that, someone is there who knows what's going on.


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## ctenidae (Mar 7, 2011)

As I recall, all the chairs were off the lift a few years ago. Glad something's going on with it.Given a little TLC, it could do reasonably well, I think. Small number of millions to get it up adn running, and if the water rights hold up, ought to be able to blow a lot of snow. Summer time has a lot of potential uses, too.


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## Glenn (Mar 28, 2011)

Ok, another update. Our nextdoor neighbor stopped by this weekend to talk about this very subject. He saw one of my posts on snowjournal. Turns out, the area is going to try to reopen next season. The owner is having someone else do the operational side of things and he'll still retain ownership. Town permits shouldn't be an issue; getting the other state and whatnot may take some time. The liftines are pretty grown in. But maybe that's why they took chairs off; work in the lifts, do some thinning. 

The sign for the parkinglot has been fixed up and there's a new sign up front.  I think it would be pretty cool if they were able to operate again.


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## bvibert (Mar 28, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Ok, another update. Our nextdoor neighbor stopped by this weekend to talk about this very subject. He saw one of my posts on snowjournal. Turns out, the area is going to try to reopen next season. The owner is having someone else do the operational side of things and he'll still retain ownership. Town permits shouldn't be an issue; getting the other state and whatnot may take some time. The liftines are pretty grown in. But maybe that's why they took chairs off; work in the lifts, do some thinning.
> 
> The sign for the parkinglot has been fixed up and there's a new sign up front.  I think it would be pretty cool if they were able to operate again.



It will be pretty amazing if they're able to open again, based on the pictures I've seen and how long they've been closed for.  I hope it works out though!


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## hrstrat57 (Aug 16, 2012)

Drove by Maple Valley on VT Route 30 on the way home from camping.....chairs were on the lift and the place looked pretty cleaned up.

Any updates from locals?


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## drjeff (Aug 17, 2012)

hrstrat57 said:


> Drove by Maple Valley on VT Route 30 on the way home from camping.....chairs were on the lift and the place looked pretty cleaned up.
> 
> Any updates from locals?



Paging Glenn for some info.....


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## Glenn (Mar 13, 2013)

Bump...update. There's a sign up front now stating the area is for sale...it just went up over the weekend. They've fastendd some orange painted skis to it as well. Here's the website listed on the sign: http://www.maplevalleyski.com/  Looks like they've put together a rather nice website. The inside of the lodge is in really good shape.   

We hiked the area in the fall. The North Chair liftline was mostly clear and looked runable. The South Chair had a good amount of scrub that probably needed to be cut. 

On New Year's Eve, the lodge was opened up for a local event. More info can be found on this FaceBook page: http://www.facebook.com/events/382377618519170/ 

No idea on the asking price; it's not listed on the website. Anyone recall what it was last listed for in roughly 2007? I thought it was a mil point something. 

Caution----Assumption: I'm thinking the owner threw in the towel after the reception he received from the town a few summer's ago. He had a lot of ideas and brought them all to the town. Sadly, they balked, and had a number of "what if" questions.


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## billski (Mar 13, 2013)

Boy that lodge is in turnkey condition.  I'd love one of those M/V chairs, but I hope I never have the opportunity.
There sure is a pretty complete list of equipment and out buildings.  Wondering what it would take to get it turning again.  I'll be the price is too high for a reasonable ROI on operating it.

It's too bad the web master can't run spell check or get a handle on good grammar!


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## octopus (Mar 13, 2013)

interesting. maybe i missed it, but how long has this been closed for?


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## ScottySkis (Mar 13, 2013)

I like name of this place.:beer::banghead::what:


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## billski (Mar 13, 2013)

octopus said:


> interesting. maybe i missed it, but how long has this been closed for?



Do a forum search, especially under trip reports.


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## Euler (Mar 13, 2013)

octopus said:


> interesting. maybe i missed it, but how long has this been closed for?


I moved to Vermont in the fall of 1997.  That iwnter Maple Valley opened after having been closed for some time.  I think they were only open that one year, so it has been a long time...


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## octopus (Mar 13, 2013)

looks like since 2000 according to nelsap, 13 years. prob need an extra million on top of the asking price to get it going, esp since it seems like the lifts don't work, not to mention everything else sitting there. kinda cool they have there own power source, if it works.

maybe euler is right , so at least 13 years.


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## octopus (Mar 19, 2013)




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## marcski (Mar 19, 2013)

That is a Hall double, if I'm not mistaken. Some work and I bet that lift would keep going and going and going....


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## octopus (Mar 19, 2013)

it is a hall, according to the listing. theres another hall(i think) that goes halfway up the hill on the other side. i need some investors...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2013)

Not to piss on the parade, but that is a real shi&&y paint job and makes it look pretty bad.  And, IIRC, someone in here who went up close and looked at it observed that they were dumb enough to paint moving components such that it now won't operate.


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## octopus (Mar 19, 2013)

whoever painted it was real dumb, they painted over the gauges and everything. it was obviously for selling purposes, the paint on the chairs is already flaking off. i realize getting this place going would need LOTS if work, but it's still there. has summer potential, also.


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## Hado226 (Mar 19, 2013)

Rumor is permit to draw snowing water from the river is expired and is not renewable.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## octopus (Mar 20, 2013)

Hado226 said:


> Rumor is permit to draw snowing water from the river is expired and is not renewable.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


i'm not liking this rumor, would be a huge setback to making this a ski mtn again.


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## Glenn (Mar 20, 2013)

The lifts will run. Most of the chairs were pulled off last year. IIRC, they ran an ultrasound test on the haul ropes to see if they would pass muster. I "think" one may need to be replaced. 

Wonder if they'd be open to "shares"...similar to what MRG and Magic have done...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2013)

octopus said:


> i'm not liking this rumor, would be a huge setback to making this a ski mtn again.



Ive heard this from numerous folks as well.


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## bvibert (Mar 20, 2013)

As much as I'd love to see this mountain reopen (or any NELSAP mountain), I don't think there's a very big chance that it will ever be a ski area again.

Sounds like there's water rights issues as well as issues with locals/town officials.  Neither one will be very easy to overcome.  Not to mention all of the maintenance issues from years of everything sitting idle.

If I won the lotto I'd buy it just to use as my own personal playground... :lol:


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## Glenn (Apr 22, 2013)

Maybe the Development Review Board will be more open to the proposal this time around: 

http://www.reformer.com/ci_23059177...ADID=Search-www.reformer.com-www.reformer.com

Friday April 19, 2013 

DUMMERSTON -- Once again, there is a proposal to transform the shuttered 
Maple Valley Ski Area into a busy, year-round resort. 

A Dummerston Development Review Board hearing is scheduled for 7 p.m. on 
April 23 at the town office for review of an application by Stamford, 
Conn.-based MVS Associates. 

The resort's owners detail a long list of potential uses on their application 
and on their website, which says the Route 30 parcel "is ideal to be a 
multiseasonal facility with skiing, banquets, business meetings and concerts." 

Administrators say Maple Valley last was leased in 1999/2000. 

This is MVS Associates' second application to reopen the 384-acre property. 
In 2011, MVS representative Nicholas Mercede submitted a similar plan. But the 
review board at that time declined to address that plan without more specifics, 
with one member reportedly labeling some concepts as "pie in the sky." Board 
members also asked MVS to address residents' concerns including noise from 
snow-making pumps and light pollution from night skiing. 

MVS later withdrew its application. 

While company representatives could not immediately be reached for comment on 
Thursday, an application filed with the town lists MVS as the owner and includes 
a cover letter from Nicholas Mercede. 
The company seeks a conditional-use permit to "resume use of property as a 
four-season recreational area." Potential activities are listed in the 
application by season 

and by other categories: 

-- Winter: Skiing (including cross-country skiing) snowboarding and 
snowman/ice sculpture contests and events. 

-- Spring: Mountain biking, hiking, maple syrup production and 
outdoor-leadership skills training. 

-- Summer: Soapbox race course, paint ball, unicycle events and a circus or 
circus camp. 

-- Fall: Foliage viewing, Halloween events and archery camps. 

-- Special events: Therapeutic adventure programs, corporate-challenge and 
training programs, hall rentals for conferences and "charity event days." 

-- Community events: Antique car shows, wedding symposiums, dances, movies 
(for Dummerston residents only), book/tag sale opportunity days, dinner theater 
and storytelling festivals. 

-- Other financial opportunities: Bicycle repair, outdoor-clothing repair, 
ski sharpening and teaming with local entrepreneurs/businesses/camps. 

Additionally, the application includes an engineering report saying cables on 
both of the resort's chairlifts "are satisfactory for continued use." 

The resort also remains up for sale, offered by Frank Mercede & Sons. 
That company shares the MVS Associates address in Stamford. 

A website, www.maplevalleyski.com, encourages 
prospective buyers to "purchase a piece of Vermont history" and says the resort 
is "a prime investment property with great possibilities and the full support of 
the local community, which grew up skiing there." 

The site includes information on the resort's three-story, 16,000-square-foot 
base lodge; two chair lifts and a T-bar; snow-making equipment; and lighting for 
night skiing. 

"The front of the lodge is highly visible from Vermont Route 30, making it 
advertise itself," the site says. "Route 30 is one of the state's busiest 
highways and is the main route between Interstate 91 and the West River Valley 
and Stratton another 45 minutes' drive to the north." 
*Mike Faher*_ can be reached at mfaher@reformer.com or 802-254-2311, ext. 
275._





Copyright 2012 Brattleboro Reformer. All rights 
reserved.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 24, 2013)

Not sure I've seen any ski resorts have these activities on their summer list.

-- Summer: Soapbox race course, unicycle events and a circus or 
circus camp.


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## octopus (Apr 25, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> Not sure I've seen any ski resorts have these activities on their summer list.
> 
> -- Summer: Soapbox race course, unicycle events and a circus or
> circus camp.



yeah, kind of a weird demographic they're trying to capture with the summer and fall activities.


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## drjeff (Apr 25, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> Not sure I've seen any ski resorts have these activities on their summer list.
> 
> -- Summer: Soapbox race course, unicycle events and a circus or
> circus camp.





octopus said:


> yeah, kind of a weird demographic they're trying to capture with the summer and fall activities.



If you've ever seen some of the summer crowd that hangs out at the West River access point across the street and both just West and East of Maple Valley along the side of Route 30, you'd readily agree that there's already a decent amount of a "weird" demographic there! :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2013)

These kind of odd activities sounds eerily like Tenney's last attempt...


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## Glenn (Apr 25, 2013)

To Jeff's point...I've gone tubing down that stretch of the West River. Something can never be "unseen". 

Well, looks like the town wants more information and specifics...yet again. 

http://www.reformer.com/ci_23101684/weighing-about-maple-valley-plans?source=most_viewed

Thursday April 25, 2013 

DUMMERSTON -- Facing residents' concerns and town officials' questions, the 
owner of the shuttered Maple Valley Ski Area says he will modify his proposal in 
an attempt to reopen at least part of the resort. 

Nicholas Mercede of Stamford, Conn.-based MVS Associates agreed on Tuesday to 
first seek approval to hold special events at the resort -- a request that 
Dummerston Development Review Board members thought they could more easily 
process. 

But Mercede also said he will continue to pursue a permit for skiing on the 
mountain, saying that is critically important to his ongoing efforts to sell the 
384-acre property on Route 30. 

"If someone wanted to buy it, they want to know whether it can be used to ski 
on," Mercede said. "That's the big important thing. That's the value of the 
property." 

There has been no skiing at Maple Valley for more than a decade. MVS's 
application, filed in March, seeks the town's permission to operate a 
"four-season recreation area" there. 

In addition to skiing, the company proposes a long list of possible 
activities including mountain biking, hiking, paint ball, foliage viewing, 
archery camps, antique car shows, dances and movies. 

"The application is to revitalize what we had there before. It's as simple as 
that," Mercede told review board members on Tuesday. 
The company filed a similar application in 2011. At the time, the Development 
Review Board declined to address it without more 



Advertisement







specifics. 

Board member Lew Sorenson had a similar reaction at the outset of MVS' 
hearing Tuesday night. 

"When we considered a similar application two years ago, I think we explained 
then that, for you to get the permit that you were asking for then and are 
basically asking for now, it's going to require all the same kind of detail that 
a new applicant would need to present," Sorenson said. "That includes detailed 
engineering and explanation of what uses go where, and when and how they would 
be operated." 

Sorenson added that "there isn't the information here that we would need to 
grant those permits." 

The 2011 Maple Valley deliberations also featured neighbors who had concerns 
about light and noise. That was again the case at Tuesday's hearing. 

Mary Louise Nelsen of Hague Road recalled that, when Maple Valley was 
operating, the resort's lights were so bright that "we could read outside" at 
night. She also recalled "throbbing engine noise" from snow-making activities. 

"The noise definitely was a substantial impact through the closed windows in 
the winter inside the house," Nelsen said. 

Judy Placey said she has extensive experience with Maple Valley, having been 
a neighbor for four decades. But she said the ski business has changed, as has 
the character of her neighborhood. 

"This isn't a business community anymore. These are not ski homes anymore. 
This is a residential community," Placey said. "People live in these houses. And 
these lights affect us, and this noise affects us." 

Both she and Nelsen also said they had concerns about a lack of specifics in 
the MVS application and about Mercede's intention to sell the resort. 

"I am opposed to kind of a theoretical permitting process where somebody else 
might come in and have different concepts and put more snow guns on or more 
lights on," Placey said. 

Others, however, showed up to support MVS' plans. Beverly Kenney, who owns 
Brattleboro North KOA campground in East Dummerston, said she wants to see Maple 
Valley revived "in a meaningful way" that could also provide an economic boost 
to the area. 

"I support a project such as this for an obvious reason -- it will fill my 
campground and my cottages," Kenney said. 

She added that "this area needs an attraction. Dummerston could use the 
employment opportunities, especially for the youth." 

While Kenney acknowledged that she was not a neighbor of the resort, Art 
Benedict is. And the Route 30 resident said he had enjoyed living next to a busy 
ski resort. 

"The lights were never a problem for me. In fact, it was a selling point for 
the house to have a ski area right across the road," Benedict said. "It's very 
nice to sit in your dining room at night and watch the skiers coming down the 
mountain. And I look forward to the day when this all happens again." 

Mercede attempted to address some concerns by offering additional information 
at Tuesday's hearing. For instance, he said the resort's lighting would be 
modernized. 

"We would be restricted to the amount of lights that are there now. We won't 
put any more lights in," he said. "And certainly, they're going to be improved 
.... Nowadays, the lighting's easy to do." 

But Mercede also acknowledged that Maple Valley's snow-making equipment is 
obsolete, and he could not answer specific questions about the equipment that 
might replace it. 

Review board Chairman Jack Lilly said the town requires that type of 
information. 

"In order for us to really evaluate this, we'd need to know what the sound 
levels are for the new snow-making equipment," Lilly said. 

Mercede also said he does not yet have a state permit to draw water from the 
West River for snow-making. And officials said the Maple Valley plan, along with 
Development Review Board approval, also will require a state Act 250 land-use 
permit. 

As more questions arose later in the hearing, Mercede and his executive 
assistant, Shirley Schulz, agreed to split the MVS permit application into two 
parts. 

While continuing to develop plans for ski operations, they said the company 
will seek more immediate approval to rent out the resort's lodge for special 
events. 

Schulz said the lodge remains in good shape. 

"Even though it's not being utilized, it's still being maintained and kept 
up," she said. 

Sorenson said the company's modified permitting approach would allow the 
review board to process the "less theoretical" aspects of the MVS plan first. 

"I think we could deal with (rentals and events) rather than trying to issue 
a permit for a ski resort the way it was, when some of us may not even have a 
good memory of what it was," he said. 

At the close of Tuesday's hearing, Lilly said he believed town officials and 
Mercede eventually could work through their differences. The review board has up 
to 45 days to issue a ruling on MVS' application. 

"Maple Valley was a tremendous facility," Lilly said. "Yet, you've heard all 
of the comments we've had, and there are concerns and there are real issues that 
we need to talk about. But I think we'll get there." 
*Mike Faher*_ can be reached at mfaher@reformer.com or 802-254-2311, ext. 
275._



Copyright 2012 Brattleboro Reformer. All rights 
reserved.


----------



## tumbler (Jun 15, 2017)

Looks like there is finally an asking price- $950,000

https://snowbrains.com/vermont-ski-area-sale-950000/


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## Jully (Jun 15, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Looks like there is finally an asking price- $950,000
> 
> https://snowbrains.com/vermont-ski-area-sale-950000/



The ad reads like it is designed to get some random person off the street who knows nothing about skiing. Weird.


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## Rowsdower (Jun 15, 2017)

Not a lot of vert. Very low elevation (peak is under 1000') and pretty far South does not make for a good combo. Not when Mt Snow is a stones throw away. Unless they can cater to a niche market I don't see how you get a place like this going again. 

I'm as much a supporter of independently run atmosphere-over-resort-frills mountains as the next guy on here, but they can't all be winners...

Also a big LOL at them advertising having a "fully functional" snowmaking system. For a mountain that closed 17 years ago you'd probably have to replace the entire thing. Even if it did work you'd have to install new high efficiency guns, would you not?


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## benski (Jun 15, 2017)

Rowsdower said:


> Also a big LOL at them advertising having a "fully functional" snowmaking system. For a mountain that closed 17 years ago you'd probably have to replace the entire thing. Even if it did work you'd have to install new high efficiency guns, would you not?



Killington sometimes used non low-e guns, but without working air pipes, but the energy saving of buying low e guns make it a no brainier.


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## Newpylong (Jun 15, 2017)

New Low-E guns come with a steep price tag. For a fraction of the cost a small hill can buy older used equipment and get by until they get their feet under them. 

If the snowmaking infrastructure has not been vandalized or suffered extensive freeze damage it's possible much is salvageable. Steel snowmaking pipe wears more from use rather than sitting there (the walls get thin and eventually fail from water flowing inside). But yeah, there likely is nothing fully functional about it without some work after being dormant. Also 800 GPM is not much volume for a 1,000 foot vertical hill.


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## tumbler (Jun 16, 2017)

Everything there runs off diesel generators, lifts and snowmaking system.  I could see it functioning as a night skiing and local schools hill.  The ad has had the same bizzare language for years but never had a price stated.  As a straight real estate deal ~ $2,500/acre is not too bad.


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## drjeff (Jun 16, 2017)

The reality is that Maple Valley may have more potential with the installation of some summer operations items than as a functioning winter ski area..  There's already a sizable number of people who go to that immediate area in the summer to swim/tube/frolic in the West River, so building off that would be likely a much easier starting point than trying to get some of the Mount Snow/Stratton/Bromley/Magic crowd to pull off Route 30 on their way to other ski areas.  Additionally, the reality is that there's just not enough of a population base in the immediate area to make night skiing an economically viable option either IMHO....

Get some zip lines, maybe install some of that year round synthetic ski/rideable carpet for a novelty terrain park set up, maybe a mountain coaster and then see if one can get approval for a windmill or a much needed on that stretch of route 30, cell tower set up for additional, stable, year round income.


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## Mapnut (Jun 16, 2017)

Nice vertical drop lie there - "over 1000 feet". It's about 770.


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## drjeff (Jun 16, 2017)

Mapnut said:


> Nice vertical drop lie there - "over 1000 feet". It's about 770.



I heard their last marketing guy went on to become a snow reporter at Jay Peak when Maple Valley closed ;-):lol::roll:8)


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2017)

drjeff said:


> I heard their last marketing guy went on to become a snow reporter at Jay Peak when Maple Valley closed ;-):lol::roll:8)


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## Glenn (Jun 26, 2017)

It's been for sale for a number of years now. It would be great if someone would buy it and start bringing it back. The town has thrown up a few roadblocks. The current owners came with a number of off season ideas, and the town balked at many of them. Plus, some of the abutting property owners aren't keen on the area opening up again due to noise.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 26, 2017)

I think that Jamaica Man and Do Work need to expand their empire.

I can see it now, the "Magic Maple Pass."


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2017)

It's too bad that it has sat unused for so long.  I think that will be a hard one to bring back.


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## JamaicaMan (Jun 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that Jamaica Man and Do Work need to expand their empire.
> 
> I can see it now, the "Magic Maple Pass."



Uh no. We are not into empire building. Just plain old building right now. But we are here to talk and help MV as need be since we'd be SoVT neighbors. 


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## Glenn (Jun 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> It's too bad that it has sat unused for so long.  I think that will be a hard one to bring back.



A lot of trails are getting overgrown. And one has some pretty bad washouts from heavy rains. The snowmaking system is missing pipes in sections. I'm sure it could be brought back, but it will need some updating.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

Glenn said:


> A lot of trails are getting overgrown. And one has some pretty bad washouts from heavy rains. The snowmaking system is missing pipes in sections. I'm sure it could be brought back, but it will need some updating.



I imagine that the lifts are shot.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I imagine that the lifts are shot.



If Magic can resurrect the Green, then I'd bet that with a bunch of $$ and work that the lifts at MV could be brought back to life for less $$ than a new installation.

When I drove by them on my way home to CT this past Sunday, on the outside at least they still look intact - no clue as to the status of the drive motors, the sheaves, the haul rope, etc......  100% not likely to be just a "flip the on switch" and pass inspection type of things I'd guess.....


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

drjeff said:


> If Magic can resurrect the Green, then I'd bet that with a bunch of $$ and work that the lifts at MV could be brought back to life for less $$ than a new installation.
> 
> When I drove by them on my way home to CT this past Sunday, on the outside at least they still look intact - no clue as to the status of the drive motors, the sheaves, the haul rope, etc......  100% not likely to be just a "flip the on switch" and pass inspection type of things I'd guess.....



Yes, does anyone know the status?  Photos I have seen show trees growing up around them and chairs still hanging.


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## Glenn (Jun 27, 2017)

My wife and I hiked it within the last year or so. The liftline for the North Chair had been trimmed somewhat. I know they did run that lift and possibly test the haul rope. The South Chair is much more overgrown. But that's been run as well. Can't say how much. But some chairs had moved at some point. 

The lodge is still neat and tidy inside based on what you can see through the doors. They had a party/event there a few years back. I think it was some type of New Years Eve party or concert. 

I may have said it before, so sorry if it's redundant. A lot of locals have fond memories of the area. It was a great place to learn to ski and may schools had their after school ski events there. Who knows, maybe it could reopen in a limited capacity; weekends only...certain school nights only.


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## machski (Jun 27, 2017)

End of season for my collegiate division races were there.  Lifties would pull straws to see who got the top, some crazy ski suits (well, not much of a suit) on some who weren't trying for points in those races.

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## dlague (Jun 27, 2017)

drjeff said:


> If Magic can resurrect the Green, then I'd bet that with a bunch of $$ and work that the lifts at MV could be brought back to life for less $$ than a new installation.
> 
> When I drove by them on my way home to CT this past Sunday, on the outside at least they still look intact - no clue as to the status of the drive motors, the sheaves, the haul rope, etc......  100% not likely to be just a "flip the on switch" and pass inspection type of things I'd guess.....


Look at what they did with the lifts at Tenney.

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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> Look at what they did with the lifts at Tenney.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Being out of operation and unmaintained for what, two maybe three years like at Tenney, versus now going on almost 20 years makes a big difference.


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## slatham (Jun 27, 2017)

MV has been closed since 99/00 season. The two chairs were installed in 63 and 64. I find it hard to believe that those lifts can be economically brought back to life under current lift safety standards. 


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## Newpylong (Jun 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Being out of operation and unmaintained for what, two maybe three years like at Tenney, versus now going on almost 20 years makes a big difference.



6 years at Tenney when they rebuilt the lifts.


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## JamaicaMan (Jun 22, 2018)

Anybody hearing what’s happening?


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## Glenn (Jun 24, 2018)

No info as of yet. It's been pretty quiet outside of the announcement of the sales a few weeks back. My wife drove by this weekend and said the for sale sign has been removed.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2018)

This was just posted:

https://vtdigger.org/2018/06/25/brewery-tap-skiing-hold-maple-valley/


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## sull1102 (Jun 26, 2018)

Sounds like skiing is done for good here unless this new guy is secret best friends with The Alchemist team up north. Not sure there are many breweries out there doing so well they can support even a small bunny hill, nevermind snowmaking and such. At least the base lodge can hopefully stick around for this new operation, which will be successful if run properly. These brewery/restaurant places have been popping all over and seem to do very well as long as the management has a clue.

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## drjeff (Jun 26, 2018)

Also seems like with the intent to use some of the land to grow corn/hops and possibly apples and who knows what else on site for the brewery/distillery that they'll be able to acquire what is often tax favorable farm status as well.....


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## slatham (Jun 26, 2018)

Well I hope it works out whatever they decide. If you think of the pub as the money maker, maybe you offer tubing, back country touring, and mountain biking to attract more people who at the end of the day will be thirsty!

But I have to laugh at this:  “The infrastructure for the mountain hasn’t been kept up.” Wow , that's an understatement.


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## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2018)

Do people actually pass by this place to go any where? Local population won't keep a pub/brewery in business.


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## EPB (Jun 26, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Do people actually pass by this place to go any where? Local population won't keep a pub/brewery in business.



The VT brewery scene is booming right now. Hard to know if it has already reached the point of saturation, but there are a few breweries already in VT in places that could get less natural traffic.

https://www.vermontbrewers.com/breweries/


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## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2018)

eastern powder baby said:


> The VT brewery scene is booming right now. Hard to know if it has already reached the point of saturation, but there are a few breweries already in VT in places that could get less natural traffic.
> 
> https://www.vermontbrewers.com/breweries/




the pub part is the more concerning part.


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## drjeff (Jun 26, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Do people actually pass by this place to go any where? Local population won't keep a pub/brewery in business.



Being on route 30, the location does get a fair amount of traffic passing right by it's front door year round. In the summer, the natural swimming hole on the West River just up the road from Maple Valley is often jammed, with cars parking down to the base lodge location on 30 and in the old Maple Valley parking lots, plus there's a restaurant/pub, the Williamsville Eatery, that's maybe 2 miles from the Maple Valley lodge, in even a more remote location, that does well on a year round basis.  

If they can put out a good product, the people will find it


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## Glenn (Jun 26, 2018)

Route 30 is pretty busy year round. They'll certainly have eyeballs on the place. Being close to Bratt helps as well. 

I'm glad they're moving forward with things. I'd love to see skiing return there, but maybe down the road. 

I could certainly see tubing or snowshoeing or some other non skiing winter events being offered there in the near term. 

Hopefully, things will go smoothly with getting permits and everything up and running. Maybe we'll start seeing some activity there sooner than later.


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## mister moose (Jun 26, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Local population won't keep a pub/brewery in business.



Whetstone Station, in Brattleboro on the river, is doing extremely well.  They are a brewpub with an upstairs deck with live music, a decent menu done well, and they have the pull to bring in great beers.  (Farthest south you can get Hill Farmstead)  Their own beers are very good, menu a touch pricey.  They have a peanut butter burger!  (Not recommended) Stopping there on a Friday night on the way to VT is always jamming.  Other days were busy as well.  

Maple Valley is 15 min or more off 91, and they would need to have a great brewmaster, so it won't be easy, but it also isn't impossible.  Many of the best beers in VT are in farther out places than this:  Greensboro, Waitsfield, Brandon.  I can see where most of the beer greats struck out on their own, can you really buy a great VT brewmaster?


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## AdironRider (Jun 26, 2018)

Waitsfield is right on 89 and a bedroom community for Burlington, let alone a prominent ski town. 

I do have a theory though that all these breweries are mostly operating on cheap credit and dreams. There are the players, like Alchemist and Long Trail (through longevity), but I just don't see every little town supporting these places ultimately.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Waitsfield is right on 89 and a bedroom community for Burlington, let alone a prominent ski town.
> 
> I do have a theory though that all these breweries are mostly operating on cheap credit and dreams. There are the players, like Alchemist and Long Trail (through longevity), but I just don't see every little town supporting these places ultimately.



Waitsfield is not "right on 89".   Are you talking about Waterbury?


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## cdskier (Jun 26, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Waitsfield is not "right on 89".   Are you talking about Waterbury?



You're absolutely right that Waitsfield is certainly not "right on 89". It is a good 20 minutes or so from the closest point to 89. There's also no real places that I would consider a brewpub or even a brewery open to the public at the moment in Waitsfield. Sure Lawson's is building a brewery that will finally allow you to visit in person, but that's not here yet.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> You're absolutely right that Waitsfield is certainly not "right on 89". It is a good 20 minutes or so from the closest point to 89. There's also no real places that I would consider a brewpub or even a brewery open to the public at the moment in Waitsfield. Sure Lawson's is building a brewery that will finally allow you to visit in person, but that's not here yet.



I think that AR meant Waterbury, which has Alchemist, and has had a pretty significant upgrade/revival in the last decade or so.  It used to be considered the "town" you drove through to get to the MRV or Stowe.  Now, with real estate prices high again, and land not really available, Waterbury has become more upscale and desirable.  And Waterbury is a base for folks who work in Chittenden County or Montpelier.


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## cdskier (Jun 26, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that AR meant Waterbury, which has Alchemist, and has had a pretty significant upgrade/revival in the last decade or so.  It used to be considered the "town" you drove through to get to the MRV or Stowe.  Now, with real estate prices high again, and land not really available, Waterbury has become more upscale and desirable.  And Waterbury is a base for folks who work in Chittenden County or Montpelier.



Could be...although Alchemist's brewery in Waterbury isn't open to the public either. Their public location is in Stowe.

Waterbury does have other places like Prohibition Pig though which could be considered a good example of a successful brewpub.

But if the goal was to point out successful out of the way locations with good beer, to me Waterbury doesn't fit the bill as "out of the way". (I think it was mister moose that first used Waitsfield as an example of an out of the way place with good beer and AR then either thought MM meant Waterbury or confused Waitsfield and Waterbury and tried to point out that it wasn't out of the way).

So in conclusion:
Waitsfield is a bit out of the way, but really doesn't have any current successful brewpubs or breweries open to the public (but will have Lawson's soon as a public brewery).
Waterbury has successful places, but isn't really out of the way.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Could be...although Alchemist's brewery in Waterbury isn't open to the public either. Their public location is in Stowe.
> 
> Waterbury does have other places like Prohibition Pig though which could be considered a good example of a successful brewpub.
> 
> ...



He’s probably thinking pre-Irene 


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## VTKilarney (Jun 26, 2018)

There are some very successful Vermont breweries that are in the middle of nowhere.


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## cdskier (Jun 26, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> There are some very successful Vermont breweries that are in the middle of nowhere.



Yea, I think the key is putting out a good product. I don't think location is as much of a factor as the quality of the product. If you have something people want, they will come to you (Hill Farmstead being a great example that comes to my mind).

So I could certainly see Maple Valley having a successful brewery. Will they generate enough money to be able to re-open the ski area? That would be a much bigger challenge.


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## mister moose (Jun 26, 2018)

What I said was:  "Many of the best beers in VT are in farther out places than this"

I didn't say brewpubs, although the entire list has very successful on site sales (or in Lawson's case, in town sales)  For those that don't know, Hill Farmstead is beyond the middle of nowhere and is rated the best beer in the world.  Foley Bros is small but superb, and sells all they make.  And if you haven't heard of Lawson's you don't drink IPA.  Those are cult favorites I could think of that are in small towns.  Lots of course in Burlington/Waterbury/Stowe/Morrisville.

Long Trail is a hybrid, a mega brewery (By VT standards) on a busy road in a small town near a big resort and VT's most quaint town.  Not comparable.  

We just had a new brewpub open up in Killington this year.  Decent beer, but yawnworthy.  Remains to be seen how they evolve in their second season.
​


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## Glenn (Jun 27, 2018)

Steering this back to Rt 30 (see what I did there?)...  

South of Maple Valley, there was a craft distiller; Saxtons River Distiller. They were/are located on 30 just north of the 91 Bridge on 30. They've done well and I believe have moved or are moving to a new larger location. I want to say on Rt 9? 

Spot on regarding Whetstone. They've really turned that around from when it was the Riverbend Cafe a few years back. I think they were just voted one of the best brewpubs in VT? 

There's not a lot of places to eat or grab a beer between Bratt and Stratton/Bromley/Manchester on Rt 30. Rick's Tavern in Newfane has been there for years and is for sale. The Newfane Cafe and Creamery burnt down a few years ago. However, they're rebuilding a new restaurant there currently. North of that, not much to speak of. 

Again, I think the traffic on Rt 30 will help. If they opt to serve food, that could really help get people in the door. As mentioned mentioned before, my wife and I have hiked Maple Valley a few times over the years. The lodge is in really good shape considering. I'm sure they could get things setup in there with minimal renovating.


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## mrvpilgrim (Jun 27, 2018)

The local Folks Smokehouse in Waitsfield has an onsite small batch brew operation. "Cousins Brewing"
Certainly not on the scale of Lawsons but they are making some good beers


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## cdskier (Jun 27, 2018)

mrvpilgrim said:


> The local Folks Smokehouse in Waitsfield has an onsite small batch brew operation. "Cousins Brewing"
> Certainly not on the scale of Lawsons but they are making some good beers



I thought Cousins was a bit inconsistent. A couple I had I really enjoyed, while others I didn't care that much for (even though they were styles I typically enjoy).

Lawson's is almost bordering on too big with the pretty wide distribution of their 2 main beers. Even at a restaurant in the Boston area they had Lawson's on the beer list recently when I was up there for work. What fun is that if it is so easy to find/get? :grin: I am hoping the new brewery allows them to have more of some of their other beers available though.


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## mister moose (Jun 27, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Lawson's is almost bordering on too big with the pretty wide distribution of their 2 main beers. Even at a restaurant in the Boston area they had Lawson's on the beer list recently when I was up there for work.


Lawsons has evolved to two different entities:  The beers brewed in Stratford CT and the beers brewed by Sean in Warren.

Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England.  It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices.  And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production.  There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste.  The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.

BBCo is making great strides, and Foam is a new strong brewer.  Sad to say the Alchemist is slipping as well in the big new facility.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.  Making top shelf craft beer is an art.  Keane Aures &Co would be well advised to look to VT for brewing talent, not so much from CT.​


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## cdskier (Jun 27, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Lawsons has evolved to two different entities:  The beers brewed in Stratford CT and the beers brewed by Sean in Warren.
> 
> Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England.  It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices.  And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production.  There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste.  The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.



The bottled ones are the ones I have far more interest in than either Sip or Super Session. That's what I'm hoping the new brewery makes a little easier to get. As for Sip and Super Session...I was a bit surprised so many people didn't know they contract those out to be made now. Was just having a conversation about that with one of my co-workers who happens to love Sip when we were up in Boston 2 weeks ago and he had no idea they were really brewed in CT. I haven't noticed much difference in Sip now personally, but I'm also not an IPA-aficionado like it seems almost everyone else is these days.


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## tumbler (Jun 27, 2018)

I wish them all the luck and hope it succeeds.  725k is a lot for the initial investment of raw space.  I hope they have deep pockets.


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## Smellytele (Jun 27, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I wish them all the luck and hope it succeeds.  725k is a lot for the initial investment of raw space.  I hope they have deep pockets.



Smuttynose in NH just learned a lesson in expanding too much too fast.


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## shwilly (Jun 27, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Two Roads in Stratford has been contract brewing the Sip (and Super Session) that you see in cans and the draft that gets distributed to southern New England.  It has become so prolific now that there are stacks of cases out for sale on the floor at reduced prices.  And I'm sad to say the taste has suffered with the increased production.  There are many VT IPAs much better now, at least to my taste.  The bottled Lawsons for sale in Waitsfield are the real deal.



You know, I'd thought that the canned Sip was pretty good, but unremarkable among all the IPAs on the market now. It would be interesting to try the canned and "real" versions side by side some time.


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## EPB (Jun 27, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Smuttynose in NH just learned a lesson in expanding too much too fast.



Apparently, they made a huge bet on a bottling facility just as craft beer in cans became in vogue. It blew up in their face.

Totally fair point on the pub from the last page, btw.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2018)

shwilly said:


> You know, I'd thought that the canned Sip was pretty good, but unremarkable among all the IPAs on the market now. It would be interesting to try the canned and "real" versions side by side some time.



To my own palate at least, it's not that Sip has fallen off flavor wise since I first had it I believe 3, maybe 4 years ago, it's just that so many others have come along since then, and pushed the definition of what a modern "New England Style IPA/DIPA" to places far beyond the crisp, tart citrus balanced nicely with some resiny bite that Sip and Heady before it essentially created the style with.  Is where today's NEIPA is at a good thing or a bad thing? That's a personal preference for sure. The bottom line is, we're pretty darn fortunate to have such a wealth of GREAT beers available in New England these days! :beer:

And I apologize in advance to my good friend Glenn, for likely having him to once again pivot this conversation back to actually 100% Maple Valley/Route 30 related items!  The first round (OK more like 3 or 4 rounds when we get together ;-) ) are on me! :beer:


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## VTKilarney (Jun 27, 2018)

I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers.  He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers.  He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.



Agree 100%!!  My hunch, as a fully self acknowledged beer geek, is that states like VT, where the "immediate vicinity" saturation, even in the greater Burlington area, isn't overwhelming as of yet, and the overall state beer hype factor is large, will do OK, with some slowing of the openings over the next couple of years, and even some closings, but nothing too big.  Larger, more saturated areas, such as major and even mid-sized cities, where there isn't quite as many breweries as say Dunkin Donuts yet (even if it feels like it in some locations) will be the hardest hit between the larger start up costs and the increased competition in the immediate area.

That being said, all 1 brewery needs these days, is just to get 1 beer to get the social beer media hype train going, and they should be able to parlay that into enough capital to hold them through until they hopefully can get another beer with enough hype to both draw customers in AND more importantly have enough customer popularity over time to warrant it being regularly brewed.  That is the tougher thing, avoiding the "sophomore slump"....


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## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2018)

Yes, there is the social media unicorn beer phenomenon, but I think that's largely becoming a dying fad.  There will likely never be another Heady Topper type scenario again. Though Sip and some of the Treehouse beers had some nice runs.  

What I'm seeing locally on the NH Seacoast that does seem sustainable is more the neighborhood brewery type places.  We've got lots of good local breweries rarely heard of outside of the immediate area that seem to all be doing pretty well.  They offer a comfortable place to relax with some suds, distribute mostly just locally via draft at bars, not much retail.  These guys probably aren't going to get uber wealthy, but they make a decent living and have fun doing it. 

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## Smellytele (Jun 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes, there is the social media unicorn beer phenomenon, but I think that's largely becoming a dying fad.  There will likely never be another Heady Topper type scenario again. Though Sip and some of the Treehouse beers had some nice runs.
> 
> What I'm seeing locally on the NH Seacoast that does seem sustainable is more the neighborhood brewery type places.  We've got lots of good local breweries rarely heard of outside of the immediate area that seem to all be doing pretty well.  They offer a comfortable place to relax with some suds, distribute mostly just locally via draft at bars, not much retail.  These guys probably aren't going to get uber wealthy, but they make a decent living and have fun doing it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Agree -  I like the Liar's Bench in Portsmouth. In South Central NH I love Abel Ebenezer. Both are like that - grab a pint or two while there and a growler/4pack to go.


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## AdironRider (Jun 28, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I was speaking to a commercial lender not long ago who said that they are getting REALLY nervous lending to brewers.  He believes that the market has become saturated and that there may even be some contraction.



I mentioned this a couple pages back. There is no way all these breweries are making money. Appearances of doing well, at least my theory, are more tied to cheap credit than actual success. 

I haven't seen it, but isn't there a brewery spending three million+ in Littleton on a buildout? That is a lot of coin to spend in a community that might be on the rise, but still only has a small population averaging over 20% below nationwide household income average and over 33% below NH average household income. There is no way they support the debt on that building, let alone operations there. Thats like anywhere from 25-40k in debt service monthly depending on the terms.

Shifting back to Maple Valley, he's going to need 1-2 million to build this out, in a more rural community than Littleton. Good luck.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> I mentioned this a couple pages back. There is no way all these breweries are making money. Appearances of doing well, at least my theory, are more tied to cheap credit than actual success.
> 
> I haven't seen it, but isn't there a brewery spending three million+ in Littleton on a buildout? That is a lot of coin to spend in a community that might be on the rise, but still only has a small population averaging over 20% below nationwide household income average and over 33% below NH average household income. There is no way they support the debt on that building, let alone operations there. Thats like anywhere from 25-40k in debt service monthly depending on the terms.
> 
> Shifting back to Maple Valley, he's going to need 1-2 million to build this out, in a more rural community than Littleton. Good luck.



You're talking about Schilling's.  It is pretty cool and is very busy and popular.  I doubt that they are going to go under.  They have some relatively deep pockets supporting them.  

http://schillingbeer.com/


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## AdironRider (Jun 28, 2018)

Deep pockets only support losses for so long. Looks like a local ski co here is going under because their well healed backer pulled out, they were doing fine and exploring expansion prior to that.  

They are a phone call away from being up shit creek. I mean I hope they don't, but that is some serious coin for a local brewery in that neck of the woods. I'm just kinda in tune with small business financing currently as I'm going through it myself and those numbers would scare me. I obviously don't see their books either. 

Does anyone know the numbers on overall beer consumption by year? I'm interested to see if there has been an increase or just a shift from Bud and Miller to craft?


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## Glenn (Jun 28, 2018)

drjeff said:


> To my own palate at least, it's not that Sip has fallen off flavor wise since I first had it I believe 3, maybe 4 years ago, it's just that so many others have come along since then, and pushed the definition of what a modern "New England Style IPA/DIPA" to places far beyond the crisp, tart citrus balanced nicely with some resiny bite that Sip and Heady before it essentially created the style with.  Is where today's NEIPA is at a good thing or a bad thing? That's a personal preference for sure. The bottom line is, we're pretty darn fortunate to have such a wealth of GREAT beers available in New England these days! :beer:
> 
> And I apologize in advance to my good friend Glenn, for likely having him to once again pivot this conversation back to actually 100% Maple Valley/Route 30 related items!  The first round (OK more like 3 or 4 rounds when we get together ;-) ) are on me! :beer:



LOL! No worries at all! This has turned into a rather interesting conversation with some good points about the future of the industry.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Deep pockets only support losses for so long. Looks like a local ski co here is going under because their well healed backer pulled out, they were doing fine and exploring expansion prior to that.
> 
> They are a phone call away from being up shit creek. I mean I hope they don't, but that is some serious coin for a local brewery in that neck of the woods. I'm just kinda in tune with small business financing currently as I'm going through it myself and those numbers would scare me. I obviously don't see their books either.



So when was the last time you were at Schilling?  

I agree that there may be oversaturation, but Schilling is very well established, speaking from someone who follows them and visits them everytime I am up there.


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## Smellytele (Jun 28, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> So when was the last time you were at Schilling?
> 
> I agree that there may be oversaturation, but Schilling is very well established, speaking from someone who follows them and visits them everytime I am up there.


I have never seen their beer anywhere but at their place. I am guessing i may as they did just build that huge bottling/canning line next door


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## AdironRider (Jun 28, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> So when was the last time you were at Schilling?
> 
> I agree that there may be oversaturation, but Schilling is very well established, speaking from someone who follows them and visits them everytime I am up there.



I'm just saying they need a lot of things to go right to support that debt in that area in a business with zero protections. Sounds like they are so far. Hopefully it doesn't change. Any turbulence economically and eating out and top shelf booze are the first vices people drop. 

For someone who lives in SLC, and hasn't seen their books either, you seem to be taking affront to this concept. You know them personally or something?

Schilling is pretty much unheard of outside of the immediate area. Maybe that changes?

Ultimately its not important. Back to Maple Valley, they have 750k in a place that is outdated, probably needs to be brought up to code otherwise, and they haven't even built out the actual brewery or restaurant yet. Thats 2 million easy given the size of that building (and assuming they brew in house and all that entails). Lets argue Schilling is the real deal with zero chance of failure. If they are spending 3 million and are already established with the following to support it, would you feel confident putting 2 million down at Maple Valley hoping the results would be similar?


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## Smellytele (Jun 28, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Ultimately its not important. Back to Maple Valley, they have 750k in a place that is outdated, probably needs to be brought up to code otherwise, and they haven't even built out the actual brewery or restaurant yet. Thats 2 million easy given the size of that building (and assuming they brew in house and all that entails). Lets argue Schilling is the real deal with zero chance of failure. If they are spending 3 million and are already established with the following to support it, would you feel confident putting 2 million down at Maple Valley hoping the results would be similar?



With Schilling they started small then expanded. MV sounds like they want to start big and hope.


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## tumbler (Jun 28, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> With Schilling they started small then expanded. MV sounds like they want to* start big and hope*.



Then someone else can come in and buy it for pennies on the dollar.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 28, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> So when was the last time you were at Schilling?
> 
> I agree that there may be oversaturation, but Schilling is very well established, speaking from someone who follows them and visits them everytime I am up there.


The concern is valid.  Schillings has decided that they are NOT going to sell through a distributor, which is going to limit their market to a very local area.  Yes, they are popular and have a good following.  But, yes, this is a LOT of money to spend.  Deep pockets aren't always smart pockets.

Even if they make it (which they very well may), the ROI isn't going to be that good.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2018)

I think Schilling should be able to make it.  Littleton is kind of the commerce center for that part of the state.  Not a lot of great dining/entertainment competition in the area.  Folks from Lisbon, Whitefield, Lancaster, Bethlehem etc all head into Littleton for shopping and maybe plan a stop for beer. You've got the Mountain Grand Hotel nearby with lots of wealthy guests looking for something off property.  

I'm up there frequently for work and seem to meet a fair amount of retirees in the area.  That probably skews the wealth a bit higher than W2 reporting.  Cheap land/real estate compared to places south of the notch I'm sure is the draw.  

I'd say Schilling / Littleton has a lot more going for it than Maple Valley

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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Schilling should be able to make it.  Littleton is kind of the commerce center for that part of the state.  Not a lot of great dining/entertainment competition in the area.  Folks from Lisbon, Whitefield, Lancaster, Bethlehem etc all head into Littleton for shopping and maybe plan a stop for beer. You've got the Mountain Grand Hotel nearby with lots of wealthy guests looking for something off property.
> 
> I'm up there frequently for work and seem to meet a fair amount of retirees in the area.  That probably skews the wealth a bit higher than W2 reporting.  Cheap land/real estate compared to places south of the notch I'm sure is the draw.
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2018)

Off topic, but every time I'm up staying in Lancaster for work I look over at Starr King mountain and think what could have been had the proposed Willard Basin ski resort gone through.  It would have made for such better skiing than the Balsams with better access.  That whole area would have been a mecca for skiing with that resort as proposed with Bretton Woods and Cannon nearby, Burke only an hour away. 

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## Smellytele (Jun 29, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Off topic, but every time I'm up staying in Lancaster for work I look over at Starr King mountain and think what could have been had the proposed Willard Basin ski resort gone through.  It would have made for such better skiing than the Balsams with better access.  That whole area would have been a mecca for skiing with that resort as proposed with Bretton Woods and Cannon nearby, Burke only an hour away.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



And they would have had a monorail.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Off topic, but every time I'm up staying in Lancaster for work I look over at Starr King mountain and think what could have been had the proposed Willard Basin ski resort gone through.  It would have made for such better skiing than the Balsams with better access.  That whole area would have been a mecca for skiing with that resort as proposed with Bretton Woods and Cannon nearby, Burke only an hour away.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yep


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jun 29, 2018)

The funny thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that southern vermont already has a defunct ski area/brewery combo!

Pizzapalooza aka Beer Naked Brewery is located at the top of Hogback in Marlboro (Right on Route 9)... Ive only stopped by for a quick (food truck) lunch last winter to check it out but it probably has the best view of any brewery around... and has a hikeable skier friendly defunct ski area right across the street. Safe to say route 9 is even more crowded than 30.

Anyone with local knowledge know if they have been successful? Judging by the looks, dont think they will be a driver to spin the hogback lifts any time soon.........


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## sull1102 (Jun 29, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> The funny thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that southern vermont already has a defunct ski area/brewery combo!
> 
> Pizzapalooza aka Beer Naked Brewery is located at the top of Hogback in Marlboro (Right on Route 9)... Ive only stopped by for a quick (food truck) lunch last winter to check it out but it probably has the best view of any brewery around... and has a hikeable skier friendly defunct ski area right across the street. Safe to say route 9 is even more crowded than 30.
> 
> Anyone with local knowledge know if they have been successful? Judging by the looks, dont think they will be a driver to spin the hogback lifts any time soon.........


Didn't realize that's where the Pizzapalooza guys moved to, very interesting. 

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## drjeff (Jun 30, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> The funny thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that southern vermont already has a defunct ski area/brewery combo!
> 
> Pizzapalooza aka Beer Naked Brewery is located at the top of Hogback in Marlboro (Right on Route 9)... Ive only stopped by for a quick (food truck) lunch last winter to check it out but it probably has the best view of any brewery around... and has a hikeable skier friendly defunct ski area right across the street. Safe to say route 9 is even more crowded than 30.
> 
> Anyone with local knowledge know if they have been successful? Judging by the looks, dont think they will be a driver to spin the hogback lifts any time soon.........



If I recall correctly, the land that Hogback is on, was bought, or possibly donated (can't recall at the moment which one) to a land conservation trust a few years ago, so short of some occasional forestry management work and the maintaining of the work road to the cell tower at the summit, the Hogback Ski Area won't be coming back as it continues it's natural transition back to wild forest.

Pizzapalooza/Beer Naked wise, the building renovations were just about done when I last stopped in in March. The views from the dining room area are going to be phenomenal on a clear evening for sure.  The beers I've had from them (a couple of different IPA's and DIPA's a stout and a brown ale) have been good enough to keep people coming back.  Food wise, in addition to the pizza plan, last I heard they have the chef from the old Matterhorn Inn near Mount Snow (which was bought and is now the home base/dorms for the Mount Snow Academy) who specialized in Polish food, in the kitchen as well.

The challenge will be is that can the location work?


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## The Sneak (Jun 30, 2018)

Speaking of places to grab a beer on RT 30, a few years ago we were headed home on Sunday around 1 and wanted to stop for lunch and watch a bit of the Pats game, we ended up in some place that was a freaking JETS bar. I think it’s on 30, is it Ricks? 


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## VTKilarney (Jun 30, 2018)

IPAs are so overdone.


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## WoodCore (Jun 30, 2018)

The Sneak said:


> Speaking of places to grab a beer on RT 30, a few years ago we were headed home on Sunday around 1 and wanted to stop for lunch and watch a bit of the Pats game, we ended up in some place that was a freaking JETS bar. I think it’s on 30, is it Ricks?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That would be Rick’s Tavern! 



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## Smellytele (Jun 30, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> IPAs are so overdone.



Sour are the new "it" beers. I don't like them but my wife does.
I had a good TIPA today as well as a DIPA and 2 IPA's from Pipe Dream in Londonderry. Man was it hot there with no AC but the beer was great.


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## benski (Jun 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Sour are the new "it" beers. I don't like them but my wife does.
> I had a good TIPA today as well as a DIPA and 2 IPA's from Pipe Dream in Londonderry. Man was it hot there with no AC but the beer was great.



I love a good sour. I generally avoid IPA’s for anything else.


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## jaytrem (Jun 30, 2018)

drjeff said:


> so short of some occasional forestry management work and the maintaining of the work road to the cell tower at the summit, the Hogback Ski Area won't be coming back as it continues it's natural transition back to wild forest.



Quite the opposite actually...

https://www.hogbackvt.org/esh-project

Don't think it will ever be lift served again, but lots of work being done.

Edit: After reading more, it is an interesting project.  Sure it opens the trails for skiing, at least for a bit, but is more about using the old trails as habitats as they regrow.  Seems kinda unnatural, but I guess good for various creatures and plants.


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## cdskier (Jun 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Sour are the new "it" beers. I don't like them but my wife does.
> I had a good TIPA today as well as a DIPA and 2 IPA's from Pipe Dream in Londonderry. Man was it hot there with no AC but the beer was great.



I can't get into sours and I'm rapidly getting bored with IPAs. Need more people making beers focusing more on malts than hops for a change.


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## mrvpilgrim (Jul 1, 2018)

I to  have been drinking less IPA. Find myself gravitating to Porters Stouts and Browns. My local watering hole has had a White Lion red on tap lately that I have become attached to


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## Glenn (Jul 1, 2018)

Here's an update...that doesn't really update on much:

The Newfane Creamery new place is now called "The Fat Crow". Not open as of yet which is surprising. They did a lot of construction over the winter. 

Rick's on Rt 30 still has a for sale sign up front...and are still open for business. 

No for sale sign in front of Maple Valley and they had a few lights on inside at night. 

Oh, tons of people swimming at the river this weekend, mobbed!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jul 3, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I can't get into sours and I'm rapidly getting bored with IPAs. Need more people making beers focusing more on malts than hops for a change.



you should drink palatine pils from suarez in the hudson valley and vliet pilsner from threes in brooklyn. two great "beer type beers"

other half hosted an IPA festival in brooklyn 2 weekends ago. 40 of the best breweries in the world brought 3-5 IPAs and 1-2 other styles. minimal lines. unlimited pours for 5 hours. it was swell


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## Glenn (Mar 22, 2020)

Reviving this one. Not much activity at all at Maple Valley since it sold. They installed a gate on the parking lot that's on the other side of Rt30. You'll occasionally see a vehicle or two parked in front of the lodge; probably hikers. Not sure what the new owners have planned.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

Glenn said:


> Reviving this one. Not much activity at all at Maple Valley since it sold. They installed a gate on the parking lot that's on the other side of Rt30. You'll occasionally see a vehicle or two parked in front of the lodge; probably hikers. Not sure what the new owners have planned.





Wasnt it supposed to become some type of brewery? Doubt we'll ever see lift serviced skiing there again


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## Glenn (Mar 23, 2020)

That was on the table last I heard. The inside of the lodge is in really good shape from what I saw a few years back when we went for a hike.


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## WoodCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Act 250 permit just submitted. https://anrweb.vt.gov/ANR/vtANR/Act250SearchResults.aspx?Num=2W0724-2


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## Glenn (Mar 24, 2020)

WoodCore said:


> Act 250 permit just submitted. https://anrweb.vt.gov/ANR/vtANR/Act250SearchResults.aspx?Num=2W0724-2



Good find sir!


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