# What will be different for 20/21 Ski Season?



## boston_e (Aug 10, 2020)

Posted this at first in the ski resorts response to COVID 19 thread but thought it was worthy of its on.

As we approach ski season 20/21 it will be interesting to see what evolves as far as procedures / operations / process etc for the resorts.

A preview of perhaps what is to come....  Magic offers a first hint of what 20/21 season could be like:


https://magicmtn.com/alpine-update/


Some highlights:
- likely skier visit restricted capacity (50% of hourly uphill capacity)
- online reservations (with pass holders getting first dibs)
- reservations for table space inside lodges
- expanded outdoor seating etc.


I'm sure all are subject to change, but I'm guessing we will see similar start to emerge at most resorts.


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## cdskier (Aug 10, 2020)

Refreshing to see someone not simply sugar-coating things and trying to pretend that everything other than lodges will be normal.


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## Newpylong (Aug 10, 2020)

I haven't really seen any sugar coating - but responses from people who have yet to really formulate a plan, or disseminate that plan. I can't really blame them, things are still very fluid and may change before winter. Magic has a more defined audience and they can a draw a line in the sand before most others. Eventually those lines will all need to be drawn however unpopular though.

I wouldn't want to still be in the industry having to figure this out. No thanks.


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## mister moose (Aug 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> ... responses from people who have yet to really formulate a plan, or disseminate that plan. I can't really blame them, things are still very fluid and may change before winter.
> 
> I wouldn't want to still be in the industry having to figure this out. No thanks.



Decisions like how many per chair, how many in the parking lot can change easily and adapt to the latest guidelines.  Decisions on changing software for RFID, managing reservations, new pass holder limitations probably need to be done now or very soon.  Contracts for temporary buildings in normal times might only need 30 days, but what if there aren't enough to meet demand, then you need to be booking them now.   Add in the likelihood that some COVID procedures and travel requirements will be different in 3 months.  I'm not sure anyone can figure it out accurately, it's more like throwing a bunch of darts and hoping your pattern is somewhat close.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

I still believe something will eventually happen with gondolas.  That's the hill I'll die on. LOL


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 10, 2020)

So when A Basin reopened they used a lottery system. Over three weekends we got one day.  My bet is some sort of systematic approach will be used to limit people.  The lodge was closed but is open during the summer with limited access.  Lodge rats will probably not be allowed.  They were not allowing tailgates at vehicles not sure why.  But you may have to eat and drink on the run.  Smaller places will have greater success at controlling everything where the big resorts depend on lodging sales, food and beverage sales and touristy sales as well.  It will be interesting to see how they deal with it.  Vail village is like a funnel for in and out.  Breck in town is already pretty busy and shut down the Main Street for our door dining but winter will not allow that.


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## mbedle (Aug 11, 2020)

While smaller ski areas will get away with restricting the number of days a skier with a season passes will be allow on the hill, I would take a wild guess that Vail and other larger operators are seriously looking at the legal aspect of enacting such policy. I haven't been able to locate a copy of the T&C for the epic pass, so not sure if they changed them to include the ability to restrict the number of days you may ski on the season pass due to capacity restrictions. Anybody have any info or thoughts on that problem.


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## ghughes20 (Aug 11, 2020)

Pure speculation here, but if they restrict lodge access, that will severely reduce daily visitors.  Families with young children won't come.  No apres scene will limit young adults.  I think you'll be left with people that have on mountain or local housing.   I'd guess that limits crowds by 40%, making limited lift capacity less of an issue  

That said, with full ski gear - googles, masks, gloves, etc, we're probably the least at risk group there is.  Crowded indoor spaces are the problem.


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## NYDB (Aug 11, 2020)

Only thing that concerns me is kids/wife having to go to the bathroom.  Otherwise, I don't plan on setting foot in a lodge all winter. 

Ive always been a show up early, skip lunch break, be  done by 2-3 anyway so I don't anticipate any issues.  

With the family, I guess if they need a warm up we can head back to the vehicle for 20 minutes.  

Maybe I'll have to wear a pack next year to carry family food and beverages. 

Anticipating no development program for the youngest so maybe we'll do a private here and there?


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## machski (Aug 11, 2020)

Well, some resort operators have already partially addressed the passholder issue.  Boyne for example shut off all winter pass product sales mid June and it remains to be seen when and with what products they will reopen sales with later summer or fall.

I am betting that use of lodges will require a reservation ahead of time, at least on weekends and peak holiday times to limit capacity and set guest expectations.  I'm not sure if the larger resorts with multiple access portals will need to Cap skiers per day, but they may institute 1st chair time slot reservations to limit morning crowding at the portals.

Regardless of BG's gondola concerns, those will run but likely be limited to seating only members of the same family/party.  I think wide open on the way down, especially if they can keep the doors open downhill, should mitigate any issues for the next group.

Finally, Trams.  JHMR has not been running theirs this summer even but have announced they plan to this winter but at vastly reduced capacity.  For any other Tram that is the only way to the very top (Big Sky), I would think they will be doing reserved tram ride slots ahead of time.  You get a slot and need to be ready to ride the Tram at that time or you miss out.  Seems the only way they could run it without mega crowds at its base.

No matter what, this season is likely to be a very unique one and something that will be told in tales to the coming generations years from now.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2020)

ghughes20 said:


> Pure speculation here, but if they restrict lodge access, that will severely reduce daily visitors.  Families with young children won't come.  No apres scene will limit young adults.  I think you'll be left with people that have on mountain or local housing.   I'd guess that limits crowds by 40%, making limited lift capacity less of an issue
> 
> That said, with full ski gear - googles, masks, gloves, etc, we're probably the least at risk group there is.  Crowded indoor spaces are the problem.


Good point.  I know for me, who will be skiing primarily with my five year old, what that means is I will be avoiding any ski area that involves parking that requires a shuttle bus on cold days.  So, a place like Okemo or Sunapee on my Epic Pass will be a no go.  I'll want quick access to my van for lunch and snack breaks.  Warmer days with outdoor seating will be less of a concern.  

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2020)

machski said:


> *if they can keep the doors open downhill, should mitigate any issues for the next group.
> *



If you held a gun to my head & my life depended on the correct answer, I'd say I doubt it. It's still a relatively static environment with millions of viral particulate trapped in a tiny space & with far more surface area enclosed than open (doors), and I dont believe simply opening the doors would provide much circulation.   But there's absolutely no way to know either way without conducting a study, and obviously that study wont happen.    So until there's a vaccine, it will be gondolos for thee, but not for me!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2020)

In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today.  The patient was moved to a new room as we are replacing equipment in the room the patient was in.  Protocol is two hours worth of negative pressure before cleaning crew goes in. And then we go in.  

So, yeah, not sure how a gondola can run.  

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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2020)

But, elevators are running everywhere in the country right now, so who knows 

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## boston_e (Aug 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today. The patient was moved to a new room as we are replacing equipment in the room the patient was in. Protocol is two hours worth of negative pressure before cleaning crew goes in. And then we go in.
> 
> So, yeah, not sure how a gondola can run.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app





deadheadskier said:


> But, elevators are running everywhere in the country right now, so who knows
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Hard to know what the better comparison is... in our office building the elevator has instructions to load only one party at a time... and short of closing a building down, in many cases there may be no viable alternative to running the elevator.

I wonder if taking off the windows would be viable?

With that said, I'll likely avoid the gondola rides this winter, depending on what the COVID situation looks like once ski season starts.


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## drjeff (Aug 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today.  The patient was moved to a new room as we are replacing equipment in the room the patient was in.  Protocol is two hours worth of negative pressure before cleaning crew goes in. And then we go in.
> 
> So, yeah, not sure how a gondola can run.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Let's be 100% honest with this statement of yours DHS.  

I think that we can all agree that the aerosolized viral quantity from a COVID-19 positive patient in the ICU is going to be far different than the aerosolized viral quantity from someone who may be COVID-19 positive, but is feeling healthy enough to go skiing.

So the cleaning standards for a gondola may very well be much closer to say that of a table at a restaurant than in an ICU room


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## JoeB-Z (Aug 11, 2020)

I have a locker at Magic and that will be a godsend. I have already verified I can boot up and get out on the slopes. I like to pick my skis also and adjust gear.




boston_e said:


> Posted this at first in the ski resorts response to COVID 19 thread but thought it was worthy of its on.
> 
> As we approach ski season 20/21 it will be interesting to see what evolves as far as procedures / operations / process etc for the resorts.
> 
> ...


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## skiking4 (Aug 11, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Let's be 100% honest with this statement of yours DHS.
> 
> I think that we can all agree that the aerosolized viral quantity from a COVID-19 positive patient in the ICU is going to be far different than the aerosolized viral quantity from someone who may be COVID-19 positive, but is feeling healthy enough to go skiing.
> 
> So the cleaning standards for a gondola may very well be much closer to say that of a table at a restaurant than in an ICU room



Objectively not true and has not been shown. In fact:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2769235

"Many individuals with SARS-CoV-2 infection remained asymptomatic for a prolonged period, and viral load was similar to that in symptomatic patients; therefore, isolation of infected persons should be performed regardless of symptoms."


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## jimk (Aug 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today.  The patient was moved to a new room as we are replacing equipment in the room the patient was in.  Protocol is two hours worth of negative pressure before cleaning crew goes in. And then we go in.
> 
> So, yeah, not sure how a gondola can run.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Thanks for doing what you do!


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## jimk (Aug 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today.  The patient was moved to a new room as we are replacing equipment in the room the patient was in.  Protocol is two hours worth of negative pressure before cleaning crew goes in. And then we go in.
> 
> So, yeah, not sure how a gondola can run.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Thanks for doing what you do!  You're a hero.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2020)

Haha thanks Jim.  The nurses and docs I work with are the real heros, but it's gratifying to help them find technology solutions to elevate their care

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## Harvey (Aug 11, 2020)

ghughes20 said:


> That said, with full ski gear - googles, masks, gloves, etc, we're probably the least at risk group there is.



https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083


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## cdskier (Aug 11, 2020)

Harvey said:


> https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083



You beat me to it...I was thinking about that article just hadn't had a chance to go back and find the link.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2020)

boston_e said:


> in our office building the *elevator has instructions to load only one party at a time.*.. and short of closing a building down, in many cases there may be no viable alternative to running the elevator.



Hopefully mask use is mandatory to ride?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2020)

skiking4 said:


> *Objectively not true and has not been shown. In fact:*
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2769235



Yup.   I was just about to post that JAMA article too, but you beat me to it.   

I'm not a huge fan of retrospective evaluation, but there were prior confirmatory releases to this one too, so I think it's likely fair to say they're right (unfortunately).


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## VTKilarney (Aug 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In a hospital in VT with an ICU Covid patient today.
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



That would be the only Covid-19 patient hospitalized in the entire state.


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2020)

Good, let's keep it that way.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> That would be the only Covid-19 patient hospitalized in the entire state.


I don't follow the numbers day to day. If that's true, then thats great.

They were handling the situation well. Same hospital had another potential one in the ED when I arrived Monday afternoon. They were still waiting for test results on that patient when I left the hospital at 5 today and holding them in isolation in the ED. Hopefully I show up in the morning and find them to be negative and moved out.



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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> That would be the only Covid-19 patient hospitalized in the entire state.



A grand total of 3 people died in Vermont from COVID19 in the last 3 months.  
I doubt many Vermonters know that.


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## Not Sure (Aug 12, 2020)

"Word from race coaches...Elk Mtn. in PA will most likely not open this winter if things don’t improve/restrictions are still in place."

Quote from BC posted on TGR 

Governor Wolf ?  Or another reason ?I guess everyone that works at Elk is old . .......Come to think of it ,Hmmmmm 

This would really suck . 

I was thinking about how Patrollers were going to deal with this . The're pretty much restricted  to small areas on mountains where they work and most are older demographic . Another problem to deal with .....


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## boston_e (Aug 12, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hopefully mask use is mandatory to ride?



Our city has a mask mandate for any public indoor spaces... however there are so few people in the office building right now that it is really a non issue.  Even at full capacity, it is pretty rare that someone is on the elevator at the same time anyway (The building is a renovated old mill building, only 4 stories and most people use the stairs anyway even in normal times)  The elevator is mostly there for handicapped purposes.

But I could see where in larger office buildings, closing the elevators simply wouldn't be viable.


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## machski (Aug 12, 2020)

Well, New Zealand just went up an alert level in country for Covid, forcing ski areas there to now have to limit on Hill capacity and fully social distance in lodges (ironically, they only require 1 meter of distance).  From what I can tell, they had 9 new cases on country today, rising from 1-3 daily prior.  Thankfully, the US's hair trigger seems a bit thicker.

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## thebigo (Aug 12, 2020)

Was on a Teams call yesterday with a colleague in Santiago, he mentioned El Colorado was opening midweek only with no indoor access.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2020)

machski said:


> Well, New Zealand just went up an alert level in country for Covid, forcing ski areas there to now have to limit on Hill capacity and fully social distance in lodges (*ironically, they only require 1 meter of distance)*.  From what I can tell, *they had 9 new cases on country today, rising from 1-3 daily prior. * Thankfully, the US's hair trigger seems a bit thicker.



It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically sad.  

Politicians making decisions to protect their job rather than the millions of jobs which live under their rule.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Even at full capacity, *it is pretty rare that someone is on the elevator at the same time anyway.*



Sounds like your elevator barely gets used.  But as for the above in a well-trafficked elevator, that actually doesn't likely matter too much.  Obviously it would be worse to be in the elevator with the COVID19+ person, but taking the elevator solo 5 minutes after they departed likely wouldn't be all that much different.  Elevators are a textbook case for why masks matter IMO.


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## Los (Aug 13, 2020)

Any predictions/guesses on how seasonal programs will be handled?


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## boston_e (Aug 13, 2020)

Los said:


> Any predictions/guesses on how seasonal programs will be handled?



Who knows, but with where we are right now, I can't imagine there will be any sort of kids programs / group lessons etc etc.

I'd plan for a winter of booting up in the car, skiing with your family and doing apres ski at home with the crock pot and beers from the market.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Who knows, but with where we are right now, I can't imagine there will be any sort of kids programs / group lessons etc etc.



When you say "group", do you mean something like 4 or 6 people?   I dont see why that couldn't happen.  Seems to me you could do that with spacing.


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## thebigo (Aug 13, 2020)

Los said:


> Any predictions/guesses on how seasonal programs will be handled?



I corresponded with the seasonal snowsports director at a vail owned property last week. He indicated that as of early august they were planning to run the competitive programs this winter. I have had a kid in one one of his programs for several years, he is a straight shooter. I only asked about the competition programs not development. 

During the actual training there is little risk but kids have to eat lunch somewhere and they have have to go to bathroom somewhere. We will be putting both daughters in seasonal programs if they are running but minimize lodge time anyway possible. Show up to the mountain fully dressed, eat a bagged lunch outside when possible; bathrooms are the big issue.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> When you say "group", do you mean something like 4 or 6 people?   I dont see why that couldn't happen.  Seems to me you could do that with spacing.


The problem is the lift rides as well as instructors picking newbies off the ground. 

Very good friends with someone not far off from C Suite level with one of the four major ski companies.  Over beers tonight he revealed what they were wrestling with regarding ski school.  

Potential lift restrictions even for chairlifts are no mixing of unrelated people.  

Which means what do you do with kids in group ski lessons?  They don't send kids 5 and under up the chair alone as company policy today. 

So, the options pretty much are either

A. No group ski lessons for kids five and under 

B. Ski lessons will happen, but parents sign a waiver that they will not sue the company if their child catches Covid.



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## ss20 (Aug 13, 2020)

Killington's email newsletter today asked for college kids learning remotely to apply to their winter jobs.  I clicked because I'm naturally curious- the employment site says 200 positions available.  No seasonal visa workers this year (or at least until after the new year).


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *Potential lift restrictions even for chairlifts are no mixing of unrelated people.  *



I doubt that will be common practice, but for resorts that do that, geez that's gonna' make the lines much longer Friday through Sunday & holidays. Taken literally, it would mean every single rides a quad alone!


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 14, 2020)

skiking4 said:


> Objectively not true and has not been shown. In fact:
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2769235
> 
> "Many individuals with SARS-CoV-2 infection remained asymptomatic for a prolonged period, and viral load was similar to that in symptomatic patients; therefore, isolation of infected persons should be performed regardless of symptoms."



If asymptomatic that how do you know you have it?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> If asymptomatic that how do you know you have it?



Testing.  

Same answer for the presympomatic population.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt that will be common practice, but for resorts that do that, geez that's gonna' make the lines much longer Friday through Sunday & holidays. Taken literally, it would mean every single rides a quad alone!


As long as the CDC continues to maintain the six foot separation guidance, they don't know if they will have another option.  Which means reservation based skiing at 50% capacity.  

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## skiur (Aug 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> As long as the CDC continues to maintain the six foot separation guidance, they don't know if they will have another option.  Which means reservation based skiing at 50% capacity.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



If you can't maintain 6 feet then you just have to wear a mask which is already happening on ski lifts in the winter.


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## boston_e (Aug 14, 2020)

skiur said:


> If you can't maintain 6 feet then you just have to wear a mask which is already happening on ski lifts in the winter.



Except that some recent research is indicating that gaiters are not an effective face covering.  Who knows how accurate that is or not being just one study of course.

Things will likely stay fluid and recommendations and best practices will continue to change and evolve as they learn more about this virus.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 14, 2020)

skiur said:


> If you can't maintain 6 feet then you just have to wear a mask which is already happening on ski lifts in the winter.


I wouldn't be so confident that's going to be the case.  My understanding is amusement parks are not seating unrelated parties together on their rides and also requiring masks.  So, if you are riding a rollercoaster a stranger is not going to be seated next to you and the rows in front of you and behind you are left empty.  

Very real possibility that those in the singles line for a quad chair will not be paired up with a group of 2-3 strangers.  They will be sent up solo.

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## snoseek (Aug 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't be so confident that's going to be the case.  My understanding is amusement parks are not seating unrelated parties together on their rides and also requiring masks.  So, if you are riding a rollercoaster a stranger is not going to be seated next to you and the rows in front of you and behind you are left empty.
> 
> Very real possibility that those in the singles line for a quad chair will not be paired up with a group of 2-3 strangers.  They will be sent up solo.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



I usually ski midweek and alone but hoping they at least pair up 2 singles on a quad. That would make a big difference. Weekends could be a shitshow for sure.


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## snoseek (Aug 14, 2020)

And I still for the life of me cant come up with a decision on where to settle in this winter. I want to keep things in state and epic has a great variety for nh but feel like cannon overall is a safer bet as far as making snow and restrictions. Hoping for a vaccine that works to save the second half.


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## Newpylong (Aug 14, 2020)

Some of the discussions on SkiNH calls:

Expect chairs to go up half full (or at capacity to have two seats separating - so triples become singles. etc). Some areas may enforce same party only, etc. Line length will be partially offset having two funnels where lifts typically would have one to adhere to distancing guidelines.

It will be interesting and places will be creative for sure.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Except that *some recent research is indicating that gaiters are not an effective face covering. * *Who knows how accurate that is or not being just one study* of course.



Actually, that study found wearing a gaiter was WORSE than not wearing anything over your nose & face at all, which frankly makes me question their control as it just doesnt make any sense to me.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2020)

I wonder if someone will invent removable plexiglass doohickeys to put in the middle of quads.


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## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Actually, that study found wearing a gaiter was WORSE than not wearing anything over your nose & face at all, which frankly makes me question their control as it just doesnt make any sense to me.


What they are reporting is that the gaiters make the particles smaller and they stay airborne longer because of that.


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## slatham (Aug 15, 2020)

https://airbandmask.com/products/unisex-airband-gaiter


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## machski (Aug 16, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> What they are reporting is that the gaiters make the particles smaller and they stay airborne longer because of that.


To add to the ridiculousness, what typre of Gaiters did they study?  The super thin ones for summer use or the thick stuff many skiers/riders use in the winter?  My guess would be the first, and winter weight gaiters were probably not studied.

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## gregnye (Aug 17, 2020)

What will be different for me is that I likely won't be able to visit any ski area in Vermont. I'd have to quarantine 14 days before even beginning to ski (because their standards are based on county). Without a long-term home that I could work remote from this isn't feasible. 

Glad to see that this forum is taking COVID more seriously now. Had to leave this site in May when all the posters here thought it was a hoax. 

Being from Massachusetts right now is like being the one kid in a group project that does all the work, being dragged down by NH, Vermont, Maine. 

My ability to access the skiing (other than Wachusett) requires me to go out of state, and for NH/Vermont to get a handle on this virus so please, residents of northern New England get it together. Rhode Island and Hawaii were just added to the Mass quarantine requirement. Let's not have NH be next.


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## asnowmobiler (Aug 17, 2020)

The problem with a lot of ski masks, is they are often vented, rendering them useless.


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## sugarbushskier (Aug 17, 2020)

gregnye said:


> What will be different for me is that I likely won't be able to visit any ski area in Vermont. I'd have to quarantine 14 days before even beginning to ski (because their standards are based on county). Without a long-term home that I could work remote from this isn't feasible.
> 
> Glad to see that this forum is taking COVID more seriously now. Had to leave this site in May when all the posters here thought it was a hoax.
> 
> ...



Watching the VT weekly map more carefully now as I too feel it's going to be difficult to get there w/o quarantining.  My county, Hartford, is affected by the city dense population whereas I live in a suburb w few cases and in a town that borders another county which tends to always be green.  Nontheless, I'm limited as far as accessing VT so very hesitant to buy the Epic pass (Sept 7th deadline for best pricing). 

I've already put together a simple list of areas i should have access to for day trips, but it's a sad list. Hope things change......


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## bizarrefaith (Aug 17, 2020)

Cannon update:

Here are some plans we can share right now, all of which come with a *subject to change:

- Opening Day is scheduled for Friday, November 27th;
- Snowmaking will begin as usual in the weeks prior to Opening Day;
- Base lodge spacing and seating will be very different as we will likely be directed to limit capacities and encourage only short-term use of inside facilities to follow social distancing guidelines... you should plan to spend a lot more time outside than you may have in past years;
- We WILL be selling day passes (tickets)... and purchasing said tickets may move to an online-only system;
- We do not plan to curtail season pass usage or require reservations at this time, but we may have to ask for the assistance of our passholders in helping us plan usage from week to week so that we know what our sales capacity may be in a particular week;
- Snowmaking, grooming, and lift operations may be revised to reflect reduced capacities and revenue projections;
- Lift schedules are being discussed, and there will likely be changes in line spacing and on-chair capacities;
- The operation of the Aerial Tramway is certainly a question mark at this time, and there's no telling whether (or when) its operation will be approved relative to social distancing measures and both State of NH and CDC guidelines;


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## urungus (Aug 17, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Being from Massachusetts right now is like being the one kid in a group project that does all the work, being dragged down by NH, Vermont, Maine.
> 
> My ability to access the skiing (other than Wachusett) requires me to go out of state, and for NH/Vermont to get a handle on this virus so please, residents of northern New England get it together. Rhode Island and Hawaii were just added to the Mass quarantine requirement. Let's not have NH be next.



You could still go to Berkshire East, Jiminy Peak, Bosquet, Butternut, Catamount, etc.  Actually Catamount presents an interesting case since it straddles two states for which the quarantining rules may be different.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Glad to see that this forum is taking COVID more seriously now. Had to leave this site in May when *all the posters here thought it was a hoax.
> *



Of all the things that never happened in AlpineZone history, this never happened the most.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> - *The operation of the Aerial Tramway is certainly a question mark** at this time*, and there's no telling whether (or when) its operation will be approved relative to social distancing measures and both State of NH and CDC guidelines;



NOTE:  Much larger than a gondola car.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 17, 2020)

urungus said:


> Actually Catamount presents an interesting case since it straddles two states for which the quarantining rules may be different.


Humorous technicality, but likely to treat Catamount purely as a MA area as that is where the base, entry, access and parking is.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 17, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> Cannon update:
> 
> Here are some plans we can share right now, all of which come with a *subject to change:
> 
> ...



This is all good stuff!


----------



## sugarbushskier (Aug 17, 2020)

So for all you Cannon regulars - If the Tram isn't running, is there a way to ski Kinsman Glades/DJ's Tramline and cut back to Zoomer Lift? Want to hit those trails, but w/o the Tram, not sure if feasible.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Aug 17, 2020)

From DJ's you should be able to cut through around Banshee glade and get over to the Skateway to Zoomer without much hassle. From Kinsman I think you have to have left a car over there. Assuming the shuttle's not running.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 17, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Being from Massachusetts right now is like being the one kid in a group project that does all the work, being dragged down by NH, Vermont, Maine.
> 
> My ability to access the skiing (other than Wachusett) requires me to go out of state, and for NH/Vermont to get a handle on this virus so please, residents of northern New England get it together. Rhode Island and Hawaii were just added to the Mass quarantine requirement. Let's not have NH be next.



Where are you getting your data? The NYT tracker shows ME/VT/NH to have the three lowest per capita new cases in the country. 

However with bike week, labor day and an extended last couple weeks of summer vacations I suspect the numbers may deteriorate.


----------



## EPB (Aug 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Of all the things that never happened in AlpineZone history, this never happened the most.


No kidding. I can think of maybe one or two people advocating something that would approach "hoax" territory. Unless refraining from acting like the sky is falling one's idea of calling this a "hoax". Regardless, this is hyperbolic.

I actually feel much better about COVID-19 than I did in March/April when I was waiting an hour to get into the grocery store, we had yet to learn that surface-based transmission is unlikely, and people thought  that the death rate was much higher than it has proved to be (as you pointed out at the time  ). 

Logistics for the ski industry are going to be tough though, and I'm very curious to see what changes between now and ski season. The most fascinating part to me will be how conventional wisdom changes between now and then. 

In taking with Dr. eastern powder baby Sr. recently, the two things that stuck out were:
1) There is no such thing as "COVID-19 experts" yet - just virologists/epidemiologists.
2) Hopefully this isn't the case, but the vaccine studies could fail to show conclusively that vaccines work. The vaccinated and control groups could look too similar to draw conclusions because A: participants are encouraged to follow distancing guidelines and are therefore unlikely to contact the virus and B: the virus has a very low death rate for healthy non-seniors to begin with. The end result could be two groups where very few people get the virus and almost everyone/everyone recovers. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bizarrefaith (Aug 17, 2020)

I don't think there's much chance a vaccine has a significant impact on this ski season - the timeline seems too small. Even if we have a proven and safe vaccine in December or January, you're talking about vaccinating like 200mm people.


----------



## EPB (Aug 17, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> I don't think there's much chance a vaccine has a significant impact on this ski season - the timeline seems too small. Even if we have a proven and safe vaccine in December or January, you're talking about vaccinating like 200mm people.


Yeah even if it went off without a hitch and we had one by December, we'd still likely have shortages, triaging, and refusal to vaccinate by a decent chunk of the population to contend with. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Aug 17, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah even if it went off without a hitch and we had one by December, we'd still likely have shortages, triaging, and refusal to vaccinate by a decent chunk of the population to contend with.



I'll be honest, I'm very pro-vaccine, yet the compressed time-frame of clinical trials in this case does worry me a bit and would make me think twice about getting it right away.


----------



## EPB (Aug 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'll be honest, I'm very pro-vaccine, yet the compressed time-frame of clinical trials in this case does worry me a bit and would make me think twice about getting it right away.


Me too. My family has never turned one down, but rushing is how mistakes/oversight issues are made. No matter where your bias, I think there's plenty of legitimate reason for skepticism. One would have to assume that the "evil" pharma companies and the "incompetent/bureaucratic" government managed to execute a rush job successfully on the up-and-up to be totally comfortable with the vaccine. I don't know how many people get there unless there unless they're just very positive and trusting people.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ss20 (Aug 17, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah even if it went off without a hitch and we had one by December, we'd still likely have shortages, triaging, and refusal to vaccinate by a decent chunk of the population to contend with.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



I won't find the article but I saw a headline that according to a poll only 50% of Americans would get a vaccine.  Of course I open with, "I saw a headline"... so take it with a minuscule grain of salt.


----------



## Bumpsis (Aug 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'll be honest, I'm very pro-vaccine, yet the compressed time-frame of clinical trials in this case does worry me a bit and would make me think twice about getting it right away.



In full agreement with this and the post by eastern powder baby. I fully realize the benefits of vaccines, yet bad and not so pleasant things can happen, especially when the job of getting an effective one is rushed. The potential downsides of COVID-19 are just head spinning and new bad news keeps popping up. Now, looks like even people in their 20s can be severely affected too (Edwardo Rodriguez, Red Socks with myocarditis??).
I'll take the vaccine if and when available - well, may be not the Russian one, but I'll be weary. 

I had a super nasty reaction to recent Shingrix vaccination that was way more severe than the 3-4 days of "discomfort". Perfect example of a vaccine product that has some significant holes in background knowledge and lack of full safety info. I'm guessing that  GlaxoSmithKline had plenty of time to do proper tests to assure the safety of the product and at least by my experience (and others, however anecdotal) they fell short.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah even if it went off without a hitch and we had one by December, we'd still likely have shortages, triaging, and* refusal to vaccinate by a decent chunk of the population *to contend with.



Doctors & nurses will get it first, but the highlighted above I believe will be the biggest threat, worsened by an alarmist media which seeks to only push out the absolute worst possible eventualities & possibilities for all things COVID19-related.

Risk is a relative term.   Is there "risk" that this process was greatly accelerated?  Sure, but after taking literally thousands of people through clinical trial it should be really small.  And if you have a comorbidity or are > 60 there is no way in hell any vaccine risk will outweigh the mortality risk to you from COVID19.  But as I mention above, I'm confident any vaccine risk will be massively blown out of proportion by the media, which will scare people into not getting the vaccine, and I'm confident that it will cost lives.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> I had a super nasty reaction to recent Shingrix vaccination that was way more severe than the 3-4 days of "discomfort". Perfect example of a vaccine product that has some significant holes in background knowledge and lack of full safety info. I'm guessing that  GlaxoSmithKline had plenty of time to do proper tests to assure the safety of the product and at least by my experience (and others, however anecdotal) they fell short.



Dont blame GSK, blame your bodies immunomodulatory response! 

 It happens. I'm one of the 2% of people who are lucky enough to have a severe adverse reaction to the tetanus booster, but that's on my bodies' overly-aggressive immune system response, not on Teva or Mylan or whoever made the generic vaccine.  My injection site pain was so bad that I could not lift my left arm, I had to use my right arm to move it.  Lasted about 3 days, and I had some decent injection site pain (though not nearly as severe) for about a month.  It was awful.  Not as awful as tetanus though.


----------



## sugarbushskier (Aug 17, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> From DJ's you should be able to cut through around Banshee glade and get over to the Skateway to Zoomer without much hassle. From Kinsman I think you have to have left a car over there. Assuming the shuttle's not running.


Thanks!  Figured there's a way (there always is even if "unofficial").  Probably stick to the tramline though, but always like exploring terrain. Are the Kinsman Glades that much better?  

Still unsure about the passes, but Indy is looking better and better. Thanks for the info.  Never liked shuttles as it takes away from slope time.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 17, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> Thanks!  Figured there's a way (there always is even if "unofficial").  Probably stick to the tramline though, but always like exploring terrain. Are the Kinsman Glades that much better?
> 
> Still unsure about the passes, but Indy is looking better and better. Thanks for the info.  Never liked shuttles as it takes away from slope time.



Kinsman and DJ’s are 2 different types of trails so one being better than the other is not comparing apples to apples. DJ’s is about rocky outcroppings and small “chutes” through them. Kinsman is tight off camber glades.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## JimG. (Aug 17, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> In full agreement with this and the post by eastern powder baby. I fully realize the benefits of vaccines, yet bad and not so pleasant things can happen, especially when the job of getting an effective one is rushed. The potential downsides of COVID-19 are just head spinning and new bad news keeps popping up. Now, looks like even people in their 20s can be severely affected too (Edwardo Rodriguez, Red Socks with myocarditis??).
> I'll take the vaccine if and when available - well, may be not the Russian one, but I'll be weary.
> 
> I had a super nasty reaction to recent Shingrix vaccination that was way more severe than the 3-4 days of "discomfort". Perfect example of a vaccine product that has some significant holes in background knowledge and lack of full safety info. I'm guessing that  GlaxoSmithKline had plenty of time to do proper tests to assure the safety of the product and at least by my experience (and others, however anecdotal) they fell short.



I had an uncomfortable reaction to Shingrix as well. Pain and swelling at the injection site and a mild fever for a few days.

But I would not pass on getting the vaccination based on that. Far better than a full blown case of shingles.


----------



## urungus (Aug 17, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Kinsman and DJ’s are 2 different types of trails so one being better than the other is not comparing apples to apples. DJ’s is about rocky outcroppings and small “chutes” through them. DJ’s is tight off camber glades.



*Kinsman* is tight off camber glades.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 17, 2020)

The walk from the bottom of the tram to where you can skate to zoomer isn't really all that bad imo.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 17, 2020)

urungus said:


> *Kinsman* is tight off camber glades.



Oops yes. Messed that up


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## sugarbushskier (Aug 17, 2020)

snoseek said:


> The walk from the bottom of the tram to where you can skate to zoomer isn't really all that bad imo.


Good to know.

I don't mind a bit of a hike/skate.  I've done Lower FIS runout countless times and as long as i know the terrain, can anticipate. 

Sounds like it's worth it at least once to explore the terrain.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## granite (Aug 17, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> Good to know.
> 
> I don't mind a bit of a hike/skate.  I've done Lower FIS runout countless times and as long as i know the terrain, can anticipate.
> 
> ...



Some photos of DJ's and Kinsman Glade.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Aug 17, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> Good to know.
> 
> I don't mind a bit of a hike/skate.  I've done Lower FIS runout countless times and as long as i know the terrain, can anticipate.
> 
> ...



Just make sure to check ahead that they are open -- those two are often not open due to insufficient snow cover.


----------



## sugarbushskier (Aug 17, 2020)

Yup.  Looks like DJs requires a LOT of snow and rock skis.

 Glades look sweet though!


----------



## kingslug (Aug 17, 2020)

Im terrified of vaccines..no idea whats in them..taking the word of whoever is not my thing..ive never gotten a flu shot..never had the flu..yes this is different but im going to wait before diving in to that pool..


----------



## slatham (Aug 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Im terrified of vaccines..no idea whats in them..taking the word of whoever is not my thing..ive never gotten a flu shot..never had the flu..yes this is different but im going to wait before diving in to that pool..



Well if there was ever a winter to give the flu shot a shot (ha) it’s this winter! I get them regularly to no ill effect......


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *ive never gotten a flu shot..never had the flu**.*



Every time I hear someone say this (usually an anti-vaccine person), I think to myself, how the bloody ******* hell do they know?!?!?!   

 They never in any year of their life got sick in October, November, December, January, February or March I guess.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Every time I hear someone say this (usually an anti-vaccine person), I think to myself, how the bloody ******* hell do they know?!?!?!
> 
> They never in any year of their life got sick in October, November, December, January, February or March I guess.



LOL, agree 100% if there ever was a year to get one, this is it.


----------



## kbroderick (Aug 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Every time I hear someone say this (usually an anti-vaccine person), I think to myself, how the bloody ******* hell do they know?!?!?!
> 
> They never in any year of their life got sick in October, November, December, January, February or March I guess.



I've had diagnosed flu or significant flu-like symptoms twice. Both were years I got the flu vaccine; I've not been particularly consistent since, but I will this year (there's minimal downside risk and significant possible upside, particularly if the vaccine makers guess right on the strains to protect against this year).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 18, 2020)

I've never gotten the flu shot, I'm not anti vax and I'm certain I've never had influenza.  that being said I'm considering the flu shot this year...  

its mostly just laziness as I never go to the dr during or before flu season that i don't get one.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 18, 2020)

I've been getting a flu shot every year for quite a while. They offer them free at work right in my office, so that makes it very easy and convenient. This year with our office still being closed could make it a bit less convenient, but I still plan to get one.


----------



## machski (Aug 18, 2020)

I never have had a flu shot just because of how inconsistent they are to actually protect you from the flu.  That said, I will likely get one this year in hopes of avoiding that virus.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Aug 18, 2020)

gregnye said:


> What will be different for me is that I likely won't be able to visit any ski area in Vermont. I'd have to quarantine 14 days before even beginning to ski (because their standards are based on county). Without a long-term home that I could work remote from this isn't feasible.
> 
> Glad to see that this forum is taking COVID more seriously now. Had to leave this site in May when all the posters here thought it was a hoax.
> 
> ...


Wow, for someone who ran scared away from AZ, this post is the most bizzare I've seen in a while.  What exactly does NH and VT need to get right vs MA?  MA is doing a worse job in most metrics than VT and NH.  Sorry you live in a state that has put travel restrictions on its residents.  Be sure to vote in November.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Aug 18, 2020)

MA is always going to look worse in metrics because of population and density, certainly not the way they have handled it, which IMHO has been quite well. 

The amount of meat helmets here (in NH) that don't take it seriously is exceptional. Luckily I live in one of the few towns with a mask ordnance in this county. Best you can do since Sununu refuses to enforce the issue.


----------



## flakeydog (Aug 18, 2020)

gregnye said:


> Being from Massachusetts right now is like being the one kid in a group project that does all the work, being dragged down by NH, Vermont, Maine.
> 
> My ability to access the skiing (other than Wachusett) requires me to go out of state, and for NH/Vermont to get a handle on this virus so please, residents of northern New England get it together. Rhode Island and Hawaii were just added to the Mass quarantine requirement. Let's not have NH be next.



I think you have that backwards.  Mass several times the rate of VT (normalized for cases/million).  In my opinion VT has done very well and I am glad we are taking the necessary steps to keep it that way.  As much as I know that people love to come here, we like to go other places too.  It's a bummer for all of us.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *I'm certain I've never had influenza.*



HOW?!?!?!    

Do you have a polymerase chain reaction machine in your garage or a molecular assay unit on top of your toilet?



machski said:


> I never have had a flu shot just because of *how inconsistent they are to actually protect you from the flu.*



FALSE.

The flu shot *always* protects you from flu, but it often doesn't make you immune from the predominant annual form(s) of flu. So you may get sick, but your illness likely wont be as severe as it would if you didnt get the flu shot.

The above should be a government-funded P.S.A. that runs nonstop until every American has heard it 48 times, like those C. Everett Koop (RIP) surgeon general anti-smoking commercials I remember from when I was a little kid.  I swear you couldn't avoid those spots circa mid or late 1980s.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 18, 2020)

Can anyone explain to me why they are convinced their health/life will be better without an annual flu shot?

The science is just about 100% in favor getting one. 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Aug 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Well if there was ever a winter to give the flu shot a shot (ha) it’s this winter! I get them regularly to no ill effect......



+1


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 19, 2020)

I'm certain that I've never had Influenza symptoms, is that better BG?  Jesus Christ man...


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 19, 2020)

We have to get it for work every year. DPH gets report of every employee, Shot or no shot recorded.

This is definitely the year to get a Flu Shot if you haven't done so in the past.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *I'm certain that I've never had Influenza symptoms, is that better BG?*  Jesus Christ man...



Unless you've never had a cold in your life during flu season, then no.

EDIT:   May as well explain why.  The point is, it's not possible for you to know given how similar flu can often be to what is referred to as, "the common cold".  But ignoring that, it's also mathematically highly unlikely to be possible you've never had a flu in your entire life.  It's pretty common.  When pharma companies build models for sales of therapeutics for things like Tamiflu (a crappy drug BTW) you need to know population incidence, and suffice it to say, the average person will get a flu (whether they know it or not, something like every 3 to 6 years).  So it's highly statistically unlikely someone who's......say....30 years old has never had the flu in their life.


----------



## machski (Aug 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> HOW?!?!?!
> 
> Do you have a polymerase chain reaction machine in your garage or a molecular assay unit on top of your toilet?
> 
> ...


Sorry, the flu vaccine protects you from the strains they blend into that year's vaccine, and they are educatedly guessing what strains to blend in each year.  They do not always hit the target, some years the effectiveness of the vaccine is like 25%.  And don't try to sell me you won't get as sick, a good friend had the fluu vaccine a couple years ago, got the flu and wound up in the hospital for several days on oxygen.  He was 48 and otherwise healthy, doubt he thinks the vaccine prevented him from not getting terribly sick from flu.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

machski said:


> Sorry, the flu vaccine protects you from the strains they blend into that year's vaccine, and they are educatedly guessing what strains to blend in each year.  They do not always hit the target, some years the effectiveness of the vaccine is like 25%.



This is all correct assuming we replace the word "protects" with immunizes. 



machski said:


> And don't try to sell me you won't get as sick, a good friend had the fluu vaccine a couple years ago, got the flu and wound up in the hospital for several days on oxygen.  He was 48 and otherwise healthy, doubt he thinks the vaccine prevented him from not getting terribly sick from flu.



This is not correct.  

 Nothing in healthcare can ever be 100% every time, there are too many variables with every human beings individual situation & sickness, so maybe it didn't help your friend as you suggest; but the fact your friend is still alive to ask, bespeaks to the fact that perhaps getting the flu vaccine that year actually saved his life & he may have died without it. That unfounded supposition is at least as likely as yours.  

At any rate, it matters not whether you choose to believe it, but the science on the flu vaccine helping the body deal with flu sickness has been proven for decades, and mathematically this falls into the, "without a shadow of a doubt" category of statistical significance.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

Agreed. 

How many people are seriously harmed from a flu vaccine each year vs the number of people whose life was saved?  

It's gotta be in the millions to 1 ratio in favor of getting the vaccine.

We would be reading about many lawsuits yearly attacking flu shot companies if it were such a problem.  I conservatively scan 5-10 online newspaper and other news sources a day.  Ive never once in my recollection seen a article regarding litigation against Flu shot manufacturers. 

I just don't get anyone who has an ounce of fear in getting a flu shot.  

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 20, 2020)

Isn’t saying, “I don’t get the flu vaccine because I’ve never gotten the flu,” kind of like saying, “I don’t wear a seatbelt because I’ve never been in a car accident”?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Isn’t saying, “I don’t get the flu vaccine because I’ve never gotten the flu,” kind of like saying, “I don’t wear a seatbelt because I’ve never been in a car accident”?



Good one...


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 20, 2020)

I’ve had a serious reaction in the past  and haven’t gotten the vaccine for 5 years. My 90 yr old mother in law had issues more than once  and stopped quite a while ago . It’s a numbers game for sure, my wife and kids get it and encourage me to start getting it again.Maybe I will get it this year but there are very serious but rare side effects that give me a fair amount of anxiety.


----------



## machski (Aug 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.
> 
> How many people are seriously harmed from a flu vaccine each year vs the number of people whose life was saved?
> 
> ...


You and BG make it sound clear cut, and it isn't.  The flu vaccine is far from perfect, if the strain you get isn't in the vaccine you basically have zero defense from it.  And the other strains that were in the vaccine you got won't help your body fight off the different strain, sorry.

If we're talking Polio vaccine, well then obviously that had very high efficacy and the benefits were obvious with a definite downside to not.  With the Flu vaccine, while downside risk may be minimal, the variablity of efficacy makes the upside not as defined as other well known, high efficacy vaccines.  And for most that are uncompromised, flu doesn't kill or leave permanent damage, even if one finds themselves hospitalized for a bit with it.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

machski said:


> * if the strain you get isn't in the vaccine you basically have zero defense from it.*  And *the other strains that were in the vaccine you got won't help your body fight off the different strain*



This is all factually incorrect.   

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


----------



## machski (Aug 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is all factually incorrect.
> 
> I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


That internet God being you apparently.  Sorry, here's the CDC's take; https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm.

As to their studies on reducing severity/hospitalization/death, they have this one posted https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2016-2017/vaccine-reduces-severe-outcomes.htm that examined patients from the 2013-14 season.  No where in the study article does it say whether or not the vaccinated folks were infected with flu strains vaccinated for that year or strains outside the normal 3-4 in annual vaccines.  Further, the study does not note if it was other strains, if these strains were more/same/less aggresive than those vaccinated for that year.  To be honest, it appears these were just observational studies and didn't really lock down all the variables that come into play with differing flu strains and effects.  It looks good for the vaccine though, that is for sure.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

machski said:


> Sorry, here's the CDC's take; https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm.




All directly from your link above:


1) 



> It’s possible to get sick with flu even if you have been vaccinated (although *you won’t know for sure unless you get a flu test*).



Which is precisely what I said.

2)


> *Flu vaccination has been shown in several studies to reduce severity of illness in people who get vaccinated but still get sick. *



Which is precisely what I said.

3) 


> *Flu vaccine prevents tens of thousands of hospitalizations each year.* For example, during 2017-2018, flu vaccination prevented an estimated 91,000 flu-related hospitalizations.



Which is precisely what I said.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 20, 2020)

machski said:


> You and BG make it sound clear cut, and it isn't.  The flu vaccine is far from perfect, if the strain you get isn't in the vaccine you basically have zero defense from it.  And the other strains that were in the vaccine you got won't help your body fight off the different strain, sorry.
> 
> If we're talking Polio vaccine, well then obviously that had very high efficacy and the benefits were obvious with a definite downside to not.  With the Flu vaccine, while downside risk may be minimal, the variablity of efficacy makes the upside not as defined as other well known, high efficacy vaccines.  And for most that are uncompromised, flu doesn't kill or leave permanent damage, even if one finds themselves hospitalized for a bit with it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



It is clear cut though. The worst that happens from a flu shot is your body reacts to the injection and you have mild side effects for a few days (this is when people accuse the flu shot of "making them sick.") The best case scenario is you may be protected from a covered strain. 

There is no downside except stubborn paranoia or a successful game of russian roulette ("I've never gotten it before.")


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 20, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> It is clear cut though. The worst that happens from a flu shot is your body reacts to the injection and you have mild side effects for a few days (this is when people accuse the flu shot of "making them sick.") The best case scenario is you may be protected from a covered strain.
> 
> There is no downside except stubborn paranoia or a successful game of russian roulette ("I've never gotten it before.")



https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/general.htm#side-effects

Well there is GBS side affect but very rare although they do alude to possibly life threatening side effects. The nasal spray appears safer .


----------



## slatham (Aug 21, 2020)

Changing gears to more practical on snow changes, if areas operate at 50% capacity I presume they will not use 100% of their typical snowmaking budget. Has anyone heard of actual strategies areas may take? Less base due to less traffic? Same base, less trails? Some middle ground? I would at the least expect areas known for resurfacing prowess to downsize those efforts. But something has to give.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 21, 2020)

I think the most logical choice to sacrifice, is park.  It's crazy how much those things cost.


----------



## granite (Aug 21, 2020)

slatham said:


> Changing gears to more practical on snow changes, if areas operate at 50% capacity I presume they will not use 100% of their typical snowmaking budget. Has anyone heard of actual strategies areas may take? Less base due to less traffic? Same base, less trails? Some middle ground? I would at the least expect areas known for resurfacing prowess to downsize those efforts. But something has to give.



Yes, Cannon Mountain has already stated they may reduce snowmaking and other on mountain operations.


----------



## skiur (Aug 21, 2020)

Lets hope for a lot of natural snow this year.  May be pretty bleak without it.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 21, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I had an uncomfortable reaction to Shingrix as well. Pain and swelling at the injection site and a mild fever for a few days.
> 
> But I would not pass on getting the vaccination based on that. Far better than a full blown case of shingles.



No doubt. I came down with shingles July 2nd. Still dealing with the residual interior pain almost 2 months later. Been on the VA waiting list for the vaccine for almost 2 years. Now that I've had it, they are in a hurry to get me vaccinated before I come down with it for a second time. My Step-brother just got vaccinated after he found out the agony I went thru (and I advise you all to get vaccinated if you had chicken-pox as a child, or as an adult too I guess) and he said it felt like someone whacked him in the arm with a 20lb sledgehammer for a few days.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 21, 2020)

I was in the group that never got the annual flu shot. Hardly ever got the flu. Problem was, when I DID get it, it was absolutely brutal, and would take me down for almost a month, and then turn into a subsequent month or more of bronchitis that would typically last until the weather warmed up in the spring. Started getting the flu shot a couple years ago after a LONG conversation with my Primary Care Doc, and never looked back.


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## machski (Aug 21, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I was in the group that never got the annual flu shot. Hardly ever got the flu. Problem was, when I DID get it, it was absolutely brutal, and would take me down for almost a month, and then turn into a subsequent month or more of bronchitis that would typically last until the weather warmed up in the spring. StaPrted getting the flu shot a couple years ago after a LONG conversation with my Primary Care Doc, and never looked back.


That's great and I likely plan to get one this year to hopefully have some protection from that virus with Covid out there.  But all the "studies" done on the flu vaccine and mitigating or minimizing severity of infection if you do get it all appear to have been observational studies.  I haven't seen one scientific study where they isolate the variables out to definitively prove their positions of reduced severity of infection and death rates.  With observational studies, for all anyone knows, the years they did them they got lucky that the unprotected strains were a mild(er) variety than those strains vaccinated for.  There probably isn't a huge downside to fly vaccinations each year, except for one having blind faith they are truly protected each year.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 21, 2020)

machski said:


> *for all anyone knows*, the years they did them they got lucky that the unprotected strains were a mild(er) variety than those strains vaccinated for.  There probably isn't a huge downside to fly vaccinations each year, except for one having blind faith they are truly protected each year.



Actually, "anyone" does know.   Each flu is genomically RNA sequenced, categorized, and has a nomenclature to it, as well as any mutations of a given strain(s) that subsequently present.  This is a global collaborative effort on the part of CDC, KCDC, EMEA, WHO, and many others.  And if you seriously believe they dont know which strains are more dangerous than others, then, well, I about give up at this point.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 21, 2020)

So this does not say a lot but ...


https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...for-skiing-in-mid-november-as-it-usually-does


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## Edd (Aug 22, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> No doubt. I came down with shingles July 2nd. Still dealing with the residual interior pain almost 2 months later. Been on the VA waiting list for the vaccine for almost 2 years. Now that I've had it, they are in a hurry to get me vaccinated before I come down with it for a second time. My Step-brother just got vaccinated after he found out the agony I went thru (and I advise you all to get vaccinated if you had chicken-pox as a child, or as an adult too I guess) and he said it felt like someone whacked him in the arm with a 20lb sledgehammer for a few days.



2 year waiting list for a vaccine? I don’t understand this. I feel like if I want a vaccine I could go to my doc and get it this week. 

It also catches my attention because I’ve never had chicken pox. I’ve been vaccinated as an adult at least twice. 10 years in between is what’s recommended the last I knew.


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## machski (Aug 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Actually, "anyone" does know.   Each flu is genomically RNA sequenced, categorized, and has a nomenclature to it, as well as any mutations of a given strain(s) that subsequently present.  This is a global collaborative effort on the part of CDC, KCDC, EMEA, WHO, and many others.  And if you seriously believe they dont know which strains are more dangerous than others, then, well, I about give up at this point.


You're missing the broader point I tried to make that the studies all seem observational and thus aren't exactly solid scientific evidence.  But keep drilling in to the finer points and miss the forest, that's fine.

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## Newpylong (Aug 22, 2020)

Have you ever heard of a blind placebo ie Random Controlled Study? If not, look them up because it is customary for influenza vaccines (like all others) to use them.


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## skef (Aug 22, 2020)

slatham said:


> https://airbandmask.com/products/unisex-airband-gaiter


I ordered a few of these and they arrived this week. I tried one out today on a run. It wasn't bad: more effective than a plain old gaiter/tube and easier to raise and lower when needed. Should be OK for skiing.


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## Smellytele (Aug 22, 2020)

skef said:


> I ordered a few of these and they arrived this week. I tried one out today on a run. It wasn't bad: more effective than a plain old gaiter/tube and easier to raise and lower when needed. Should be OK for skiing.



Why on earth would you use a mask while running? Do you run with a lot of other people or through a city?


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## skef (Aug 23, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Do you run with a lot of other people or through a city?



To the extent that Cambridge MA is a city, yes. The general local practice is to pull one's mask up when in close proximity to others, and let it down when not. Mine is up < 10% of the time. But to be able to put it up at all is just a common courtesy.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *Why on earth would you use a mask while running?*



I see people wearing a mask while riding a bike. 

  In the country.   

No words.


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## Bumpsis (Aug 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see people wearing a mask while riding a bike.
> 
> In the country.
> 
> No words.



Just let it be. May be they have got used to wearing one. Granted, riding solo and in the country, wearing a mask doesn't do anyone any good.
 There are bike riding masks that will filter our dust, allergens. These masks have outflow valves, so they are not exactly protecting others but they designed to keep stuff out for the rider. I ride quite a bit (Boston burbs) and in spring, when pollen is heavy, they make a difference. Now, ragweed is spiking high.
Still, riding a bike with a mask is a PITA and for the most part, not necessary.


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## Newpylong (Aug 24, 2020)

You can tell out of staters here because they're wearing masks hiking and when you pass they literally go 20 feet into the woods. 

There's being safe (I am an avid mask wearer when required by law, business, by request, or common sense). But that just seems ridiculous to me. Maybe I should just be happy they are coming here and being considerate.


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2020)

Wachusett- https://www.telegram.com/news/20200815/pandemic-challenging-slope-for-wachusett-mountain-ski-area



> Wachusett and ski areas across the country are considering a wide variety of options for operating with social distancing requirements. Likely scenarios include capacity limits of up to 50% and restricted loading numbers on chairlifts and gondolas, reservation systems, outdoor gear rentals and heated outdoor areas with seating and food and beverage service





> This season, Wachusett tentatively plans to run four separate day, evening and night skiing and snowboarding sessions, with customers limited to one session. Ski areas will sanitize dining and lift equipment in between sessions





> “We do not know at this time what our capacity will be,” Meyers said. “We are awaiting final determination from the governor’s phased reopening plan both on the mountain and in the base lodge.”
> 
> Another likely big change is a reservation-only system to help the ski area manage capacity limits, Meyers said.
> 
> ...





> Also, Wachusett is looking at outdoor gear rentals and changing the way the ski and snowboard school runs by spacing out learners and maybe curtailing group lessons, Meyers said.
> 
> Wachusett also anticipates more demand on normally low-traffic weekdays with more people working from home and many school-age skiers and snowboarders either partly or full-time at home.




LOTS of stuff to digest here.  Honestly all of this is a positive sign given how Mass has been INCREDIBLY strict when it comes to leisure activities and COVID.  Six Flags can't open at all.  A racetrack was open without fans until the state required the track test all participants (a lot from Rhode Island), I think they were able to patch something back together after a few weeks off.

I've beaten this to death but again, what jumps out at me is 75% capacity figure.  Wachusett probably hits that regularly (total guess given their location).  But what about a place like Killington or Okemo or Sunday River or any other major mountain that can handle 10,000+ skiers a day?  How many days are the parking lots beyond 75% FULL to their design capacity in a season?  A single-digit number unless it's a banner snow year.


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## boston_e (Aug 25, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I've beaten this to death but again, what jumps out at me is 75% capacity figure.  Wachusett probably hits that regularly (total guess given their location).  But what about a place like Killington or Okemo or Sunday River or any other major mountain that can handle 10,000+ skiers a day?  How many days are the parking lots beyond 75% FULL to their design capacity in a season?  A single-digit number unless it's a banner snow year.



Likely true... and beyond that.  How is that capacity limit determined for each resort?  One number I heard is "capacity" was defined as the number of skiers per hour they could bring up the hill, but no idea if that is accurate or not?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2020)

COVID19 spells the death of the lift ticket sales job.  They were already greatly thinned from online sales, but this will likely take it down to another level at a lot of places. Lift ticket machines can't be far behind i imagine.


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Likely true... and beyond that.  How is that capacity limit determined for each resort?  One number I heard is "capacity" was defined as the number of skiers per hour they could bring up the hill, but no idea if that is accurate or not?



Who knows.  There's CCC (Comfortable Carrying Capacity) which takes into account trail acerage, lifts, and a reasonable lift line wait to determine capacity.  

Here's some analysis I did on parking capacity at Mount Snow that shows IF we go with 75% capacity based on parked cars they'd run out of parking a single day a season...and if it was capped at 50% capacity you'd only have to be concerned on the busiest of Saturdays.



ss20 said:


> Some great detail I found to back-up my above post.  I dug through Mount Snow's old master plan files from the 2005-2015 era.  Everything you could ever need to know about Mount Snow and/or ski resort master planning is burried on the Act 250 database, btw.
> 
> As of 2011 Mount Snow had exactly 4,004 parking spaces.
> 
> ...


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Who knows.  There's CCC (Comfortable Carrying Capacity) which takes into account trail acerage, lifts, and a reasonable lift line wait to determine capacity.
> 
> Here's some analysis I did on parking capacity at Mount Snow that shows IF we go with 75% capacity based on parked cars they'd run out of parking a single day a season...and if it was capped at 50% capacity you'd only have to be concerned on the busiest of Saturdays.



With respect to the Mount Snow parking situation, one thing to remember, and I'm sure this applies for other ski areas who have a local community based shuttle service, is if they can't run the shuttles, or do so at a reduce capacity due to social distancing issues, then you will see many more second home owners and renters, who usually travel to/from the mountain, driving themselves instead of taking the shuttle.

I know that for my own family, our condo complex has shuttle service every weekend starting at Thanksgiving and running through the last weekend in March. My family, essentially never drives our own vehicle to the mountain if the shuttle is running, and we know numerous families who are the same way. 

Also, with respect to the social distancing and shuttle buses, my condo is about 2/3rds of the way through the loop the shuttle makes through our complex. There are many weekend days where by the time it gets to our unit, there may be only a few seats open, and if it's one of the big Holiday weekends, then it's not uncommon for it to be standing room only by the time it gets to our place. I doubt that is going to fly right now


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## skiur (Aug 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> COVID19 spells the death of the lift ticket sales job.  They were already greatly thinned from online sales, but this will likely take it down to another level at a lot of places. Lift ticket machines can't be far behind i imagine.



You have never seen an automated ticket machine?


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2020)

skiur said:


> You have never seen an automated ticket machine?



They have them at sugarbush


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2020)

skiur said:


> You have never seen an automated ticket machine?



Never.



Smellytele said:


> They have them at sugarbush



Havent skied there since 2018.   Might be years till' I ever return given the Warren Miller thing will surely go away.


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## mister moose (Aug 25, 2020)

Saw them outdoors at Killington this summer.


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## chuckstah (Aug 25, 2020)

In Colorado a few years ago my hotel had a lift  ticket vending machine. It had several different ski areas, although I can't remember which one's as I had a pass and didn't use it. 

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## machski (Aug 26, 2020)

skiur said:


> You have never seen an automated ticket machine?


All three Boyne resorts will have them this season.

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## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

Well, we know so far reservation system for Magic and now all Epic owned resorts on the Epic pass.  Who will be next?  Have to imagine Alterra will add Ikon to a reservation system.  Thinking whle SR/SL are not planning to use this, Loon may for the weekends/peak weeks being they have been split off from the Maine resorts for the balance of pass products this fall?  Fun times, why do I think Granite Backcountry Alliance areas will be much busier this season.

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## FBGM (Aug 27, 2020)

Reservations to ski? No thanks. 

Resorts gonna get shut down at some point when the woooflu spike, prob gonna happen. 

Get yer moneys back. Lols. 

Earn them turns. Which don’t really happen on east coast. Bummer. 

West coast backcountry gonna explode with dentist dads that see a TGR movie and now think they are experts. Will be a slaughterhouse in the BC. I project massive rise in Avy accidents and deaths.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

FBGM said:


> West coast backcountry gonna explode with dentist dads that see a TGR movie and now think they are experts. Will be a slaughterhouse in the BC.* I project massive rise in Avy accidents and deaths.*



I really hope this isnt true, but I do agree it's only logical there'd be a significant spike in bc action.  

I wonder if any industry insiders are polling places to see how much bc equipment sales (if any) have spiked.  Probably too early yet I assume, but that will be your first tell.


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## kbroderick (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I really hope this isnt true, but I do agree it's only logical there'd be a significant spike in bc action.
> 
> I wonder if any industry insiders are polling places to see how much bc equipment sales (if any) have spiked.  Probably too early yet I assume, but that will be your first tell.



BC gear sales spiked last spring when the lifts got shut down, at least in New England. I don't know if that's continued to be the case or not.

Statistically, it's not newbies that end up in the most avalanche incidents; I'd worry far more about general inability to understand and mitigate the inherent hazards of mountain travel in the winter. People with hiking and backpacking experience should have some decent ideas about that, but there are a whole lot of people who think walking up into the mountains with no backpack (or layers or food or first aid kit) is a reasonable way to tackle most parts of the White Mountains.

I do hope that the WMNF doesn't do any broad-based closures this winter just to forestall the potential cluster of crowding, but I think there are a lot of factors that will play into their decision on that.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> *BC gear sales spiked last spring when the lifts got shut down*, at least in New England. I don't know if that's continued to be the case or not.



Interesting, I didnt know that.  Makes sense though.  

Maybe I'll make a donation to an avalanche group this year, I think they'll need it.


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## skiur (Aug 27, 2020)

https://www.powder.com/stories/news/exclusive-vail-resorts-announces-winter-operating-plan/

[FONT=&quot]Mountain access will be managed through a reservation system and limits will be placed on lift tickets to prioritize pass holders. Pass holders will be required to make a reservation before arriving at the mountain[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The early season, which is set to begin with Keystone opening on Nov. 6, weather permitting, will be reserved for pass holders only. Lift tickets will not be sold until Dec. 8 and will only be sold online and through call centers. No lift tickets will be sold at the resort ticket windows.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To maintain physical distancing on chairlifts and gondolas, only related parties (guests skiing or riding together) will be seated together or: two singles on opposite sides of a four-person lift; two singles or two doubles on opposite sides of a six-person lift; or two singles on opposite sides of larger gondola cabins.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]On-mountain dining will be open, with changes. Full-service, sit down restaurants will operate with reduced seating, spaced to enable physical distancing. Large, quick-service restaurants will be reconfigured to have a cafeteria-style approach, with single-direction traffic flow. There will also be outdoor seating available[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Packaged beer and wine will be sold at most locations, but there will be no full-service bars, on or off the mountain.


[/FONT]


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## Zermatt (Aug 27, 2020)

How the hell will this work? Going to Steamboat for Christmas with my family and relatives. We have season passes... They don't. Is there a chance they can't ski? Is there a chance we can't ski?

I'm probably going to throw in the towel on February trip but December is already booked.


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

I’m all in on skiing this year but fuck going west. Too many variables and unknowns. Not worth spending the dough with so many compromises. 


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## Smellytele (Aug 27, 2020)

Just hope this doesn’t become the new norm as I will give up on lift serve skiing. Many times I get up and decide if I am skiing that day because of weather. 


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## Not Sure (Aug 27, 2020)

Smellytele;1049203I will give up on lift serve skiing. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Hmmmm? Wonder if uphill polices will be affected ? Forced to buy tickets to limit crowd?


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Hmmmm? Wonder if uphill polices will be affected ? Forced to buy tickets to limit crowd?



Doubt it.


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Hmmmm? Wonder if uphill polices will be affected ? Forced to buy tickets to limit crowd?



The slopes aren't the issue  - the lifts, lines and lodges are.


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## Not Sure (Aug 28, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The slopes aren't the issue  - the lifts, lines and lodges are.



Ski resorts are businesses, was thinking they’ll be looking for revenue wherever they can get it . Where can you go and use a product for free? I would not mind paying for an uphill pass , after all there is increased liability.


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## cdskier (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Vail's announced opening/closing dates for this coming season. There's definitely a few resorts in the northeast that seem to have shorter seasons than usual. Whether it is a temporary COVID thing this year due to trying to simply minimize losses or whether it is their standard yearly plan remains to be seen...

Attitash | Friday, December 4, 2020 – Sunday, April 4, 2021
Crotched | Saturday, December 5, 2020 – Sunday, March 28, 2021
Hunter | Friday, November 20, 2020 – Sunday, April 11, 2021
Mount Snow | Saturday, November 14, 2020 – Sunday, April 11, 2021
Mt. Sunapee | Wednesday, November 25, 2020 – Sunday, April 4, 2021
Okemo | Saturday, November 21, 2020 – Sunday, April 4 2021
Stowe | Friday, November 20, 2020 – Sunday, April 18, 2021
Wildcat | Friday, November 13, 2020 – Sunday, April 11, 2021


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## catskillman (Aug 28, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I really hope this isnt true, but I do agree it's only logical there'd be a significant spike in bc action.
> 
> I wonder if any industry insiders are polling places to see how much bc equipment sales (if any) have spiked.  Probably too early yet I assume, but that will be your first tell.



https://www.daymakertouring.com/

Know for a fact sales at this company are thru the roof.  Great product, young creative, educated owners, and phoenomal skier from Bristol Mountain, NY.


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## skiur (Aug 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Vail's announced opening/closing dates for this coming season. There's definitely a few resorts in the northeast that seem to have shorter seasons than usual. Whether it is a temporary COVID thing this year due to trying to simply minimize losses or whether it is their standard yearly plan remains to be seen...
> 
> Attitash | Friday, December 4, 2020 – Sunday, April 4, 2021
> Crotched | Saturday, December 5, 2020 – Sunday, March 28, 2021
> ...



Didn't wildcat normally stay open into May?  Now Stowe will be open later than wildcat?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2020)

Wildcat has always marketed May 1st as closing, but in reality they've only made May twice in the past 15 years.

Average closing day has been more like 4/23.  So, this plan really is only about a week shorter on closing day.

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## snoseek (Aug 28, 2020)

I honestly would have been alot happier if they opened later and stayed open later but I'll take what I can get. November 8th seems pretty early and they usually try for lynx t2b so depending on the weather that may not even be realistic. Crotched season is ridiculously short also.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2020)

Kind of the same as Wildcat.  Roughly the same on the front end for a typical season, about a week shorter on the back.  First weekend in April has been average closing day for them. Only once in the past 15 years did they make the second.

https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/

That website has pretty accurate data on historical opening and closing dates for most everywhere in New England

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## Edd (Aug 28, 2020)

I’ll cross my fingers and hope Wildcat extends the closing date if conditions and demand allow. 

I’m wondering if lodges will extend restaurant service to tables where you boot up. Using Wildcat as an example, instead of just serving in the confines of the pub, make the entire top floor a place where you can sit and be served. 

Vail is saying no full service bar, but that doesn’t necessarily exclude cocktails and draft beers from being sold. You can get that at bars in N.H. today. 


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## snoseek (Aug 28, 2020)

Edd said:


> I’ll cross my fingers and hope Wildcat extends the closing date if conditions and demand allow.
> 
> I’m wondering if lodges will extend restaurant service to tables where you boot up. Using Wildcat as an example, instead of just serving in the confines of the pub, make the entire top floor a place where you can sit and be served.
> 
> ...



I'll see you up there. I'll bring the bar!


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## Edd (Aug 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> I'll see you up there. I'll bring the bar!



Looking forward to that, genuinely.


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## ski&soccermom (Aug 28, 2020)

Does anyone have insight into when Governor Scott might lift the travel restrictions from other states?  I don't see how many of these resorts can open in Vermont if he doesn't since so many of their employees AND guests are coming from flatland states...  This is especially true this year in light of the lack of foreign workers.


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## slatham (Aug 28, 2020)

ski&soccermom said:


> Does anyone have insight into when Governor Scott might lift the travel restrictions from other states?  I don't see how many of these resorts can open in Vermont if he doesn't since so many of their employees AND guests are coming from flatland states...  This is especially true this year in light of the lack of foreign workers.



I heard and read chatter, implications, inuendo, etc. but nothing solid. Personally I think they are focusing on the relief package, which is slated to help ski areas, and getting college students on campus without a breakout. They have time too since its not even September, though I would expect/hope that whatever policy is in place for the winter is communicated well in advance (October?).


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## gittist (Aug 28, 2020)

Vail Resorts has gone to to a total reservation system and won't be selling lift tickets at the windows this season.  Has anyone heard what Killington is doing?  

Being an out-a-statah I hope I can legally ski in Vermont this coming season. It's so willy nilly I could be legal skiing on Thursday and have to quarantine on Friday...


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## machski (Aug 28, 2020)

billo said:


> How the hell will this work? Going to Steamboat for Christmas with my family and relatives. We have season passes... They don't. Is there a chance they can't ski? Is there a chance we can't ski?
> 
> I'm probably going to throw in the towel on February trip but December is already booked.


So far Alterra has not instituted a reservation system, so for now you are ok.  But if they do put one in that mirrors Vail's, then yeah, you and your family could pre-reserve with your passes.  But the rest of the relatives would have to wait til week of to try and snatch tickets.

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## cdskier (Aug 28, 2020)

machski said:


> So far Alterra has not instituted a reservation system, so for now you are ok.  But if they do put one in that mirrors Vail's, then yeah, you and your family could pre-reserve with your passes.  But the rest of the relatives would have to wait til week of to try and snatch tickets.



I don't interpret Vail's plan that way. Season passholders have from Nov 6-Dec 7 to make their "priority reservations" for any 7 days they want. Starting Dec 8th though, day tickets go on sale. They go on sale for ANY date you want. Day ticket sales aren't limited to "week of" like the additional "standard" season passholder reservations are. Now if a non-season passholder wants to wait until the last minute to decide whether they want to buy a ticket, then yes, they could have a problem getting a ticket. And there's also a chance even as of December 8th that some days could already be fully booked with the priority access reservations.

It'll be interesting to see what Alterra does. I do expect some sort of reservation system from them.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2020)

This might be a pipe dream, but it would be nice if resorts took a dated "proof of vaccine" for individuals, and then that person wouldn't count against their daily capacity tally.  I strongly suspect, however, most wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole just to make some extra bucks.


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## ss20 (Aug 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This might be a pipe dream, but it would be nice if resorts took a dated "proof of vaccine" for individuals, and then that person wouldn't count against their daily capacity tally.  I strongly suspect, however, most wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole just to make some extra bucks.



HA you bring up a good point that I've thought of as well.  The first people to get vaccinated and not have to wear masks are gonna be in for a beating from the "unwashed masses" as I'm sure this will take many many months to implement.


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## machski (Aug 30, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I don't interpret Vail's plan that way. Season passholders have from Nov 6-Dec 7 to make their "priority reservations" for any 7 days they want. Starting Dec 8th though, day tickets go on sale. They go on sale for ANY date you want. Day ticket sales aren't limited to "week of" like the additional "standard" season passholder reservations are. Now if a non-season passholder wants to wait until the last minute to decide whether they want to buy a ticket, then yes, they could have a problem getting a ticket. And there's also a chance even as of December 8th that some days could already be fully booked with the priority access reservations.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what Alterra does. I do expect some sort of reservation system from them.


We'll, yeah, assuming the dates you want day tickets are available and passholders haven't reserved all slots at the resort you wanted.  A bit of a gamble when locking lodging with non passholder companions this season prior to that Dec 8th ticket window opening.

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## njdiver85 (Aug 30, 2020)

Clearly the Vail system is in favor of day ticket purchasers and much less so for season passholders, especially for those passholders that tend to stay at a single mountain, possibly because they have a home there.  If you are a passholder and only ski weekends and holidays at a single busy mountain, you are basically hosed.   You can either preserve a single vacation week with your priority reservations and then compete with day ticket people for regular weekend reservations every single week, or forgo reserving that vacation week and use your priority days to book regular weekends two/three weeks ahead of time to try and beat the day ticker purchasers.   Honestly, Vail has given a big f/u to its passholders.  I think of Hunter and Mount Snow where these issues will be at play mostly, but probably others out there.  Clearly Vail has decided that it is better financially to get more of those expensive day ticket buyers to come to their resorts and get rid of the 75+ day a year skiers at a given resort.  I guess it makes sense from a business standpoint sadly.

On a separate note, the whole limitation on visitors for a sport that is/can be fully outdoors and limitations on how many unrelated parties can occupy the same chair seems completely asinine to anyone who has had to have gotten on an airplane in recent weeks.  Planes are filling up with no spacing on many flights, and people may board with masks on as required, but as soon as the plane departs, masks are off, noses exposed, and little to no enforcement by flight attendants while you are locked in a metal tube for 3-4 hours with recirculating air.  Happening on Spirit and United.  Can't vouch for the others but there are similar stories coming out about this.


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## JimG. (Aug 30, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> On a separate note, the whole limitation on visitors for a sport that is/can be fully outdoors and limitations on how many unrelated parties can occupy the same chair seems completely asinine to anyone who has had to have gotten on an airplane in recent weeks.  Planes are filling up with no spacing on many flights, and people may board with masks on as required, but as soon as the plane departs, masks are off, noses exposed, and little to no enforcement by flight attendants while you are locked in a metal tube for 3-4 hours with recirculating air.  Happening on Spirit and United.  Can't vouch for the others but there are similar stories coming out about this.



I am fighting the urge to post in this thread but I thought this exact thing; hypocrisy at it's apogee.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 30, 2020)

While I agree with you that transmission risks seem somewhat low with skiing, who knows what is going to happen. 

I'm sure the resorts fear is something like this happening

https://wgme.com/news/coronavirus/millinocket-wedding-outbreak-spreads-to-123-covid-19-cases

Wedding reception of 65 people in absolutely middle of nowhere Maine. Now 123 cases reported with 1 fatality. 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Aug 30, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Clearly the Vail system is in favor of day ticket purchasers and much less so for season passholders, especially for those passholders that tend to stay at a single mountain, possibly because they have a home there.  If you are a passholder and only ski weekends and holidays at a single busy mountain, you are basically hosed.   You can either preserve a single vacation week with your priority reservations and then compete with day ticket people for regular weekend reservations every single week, or forgo reserving that vacation week and use your priority days to book regular weekends two/three weeks ahead of time to try and beat the day ticker purchasers.   Honestly, Vail has given a big f/u to its passholders.  I think of Hunter and Mount Snow where these issues will be at play mostly, but probably others out there.  Clearly Vail has decided that it is better financially to get more of those expensive day ticket buyers to come to their resorts and get rid of the 75+ day a year skiers at a given resort.  I guess it makes sense from a business standpoint sadly.
> .



People keep making this argument and I'm not really sure if it is true. I bet Vail crunched a lot of numbers to come up with what they did. If at the end of the season a lot of passholders were going to feel like they were screwed by not being able to get the days they wanted, then they could end up not renewing their Epic passes the following year. Vail isn't stupid. I doubt they would put themselves in a position where that was likely to happen. They want to sell more passes, not less.

Don't forget, not everyone that buys a day ticket is going to buy it on December 8th either. And with no idea exactly what will happen with COVID by that time, we have no idea what impact it will have on trip planning and ticket purchasing habits. Some people might very well wait until later in the season to book their trips once they see what happens.


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## tnt1234 (Aug 30, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I don't interpret Vail's plan that way. Season passholders have from Nov 6-Dec 7 to make their "priority reservations" for any 7 days they want. Starting Dec 8th though, day tickets go on sale. They go on sale for ANY date you want. Day ticket sales aren't limited to "week of" like the additional "standard" season passholder reservations are. Now if a non-season passholder wants to wait until the last minute to decide whether they want to buy a ticket, then yes, they could have a problem getting a ticket. And there's also a chance even as of December 8th that some days could already be fully booked with the priority access reservations.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what Alterra does. I do expect some sort of reservation system from them.



You will have to buy an epic day pass to reserve further out than 7 days.  I believe that means actually paying for a lift ticket in advance, then selecting the day you will ski.  You can cancel that day, and reschedule, but you are paying for a day in advance.

I think,


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## tnt1234 (Aug 30, 2020)

Has anyone heard anything about Belleayre's plan for the season?


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## cdskier (Aug 30, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> You will have to buy an epic day pass to reserve further out than 7 days.  I believe that means actually paying for a lift ticket in advance, then selecting the day you will ski.  You can cancel that day, and reschedule, but you are paying for a day in advance.
> 
> I think,



Epic Day pass is different than buying day tickets. The Epic Day pass is considered a "pass product" except it is only valid for a total of 1-7 days depending on the number of days you buy at the time you buy the pass. Epic Day pass holders will be subject to the same reservation rules as other Epic pass holders (i.e. they can book their priority reservation days starting November 6th). Since an Epic Day pass is valid for a max of 7 days, you can basically reserve all your dates ahead of time to lock them in during that "priority reservation" period.

Vail will still sell day tickets (starting December 8th). However at the time you buy the day ticket it is only valid for the exact day and resort you purchase it for. So starting December 8th I could buy a single ticket to Stowe for January 15th for example (assuming January 15th at Stowe wasn't already fully reserved by "priority reservations" from passholders).

The Epic Day pass product gives you a fixed up front cost and you don't need to pick your days up front and can move them around later. You do need to purchase it before they stop selling them though. Day tickets you can decide to buy anytime starting from December 8th, but you'll simply pay more per day.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2020)

I have no desire as an Eastern skier to buy a ticket dated January 18th on December 8th.  Especially not at Vail Resorts pricing.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have no desire as an Eastern skier to buy a ticket dated January 18th on December 8th.  Especially not at Vail Resorts pricing.



II though about the date thing and might be first time in long time on here I agree with uu 10000%


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## cdskier (Aug 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have no desire as an Eastern skier to buy a ticket dated January 18th on December 8th.  Especially not at Vail Resorts pricing.



I agree, but if everyone thought this way, then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place where Epic pass holders are concerned that day ticket purchasers are being "favored" with how the reservation system works.


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## boston_e (Aug 31, 2020)

Maybe I missed it, but has Vail said how they determine capacity for each of the resorts?  And how many days in a typical season do they get attendance beyond that the daily limits will be?


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## cdskier (Aug 31, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Maybe I missed it, but has Vail said how they determine capacity for each of the resorts?  And how many days in a typical season do they get attendance beyond that the daily limits will be?



I don't think they know the answer themselves yet as it is at least partially dependent upon what the various states mandate by that point...


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## slatham (Aug 31, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I don't think they know the answer themselves yet as it is at least partially dependent upon what the various states mandate by that point...



This is the critical question and will vary resort by resort based on local mandates. I don't think we should get too stressed out until we know those capacity constraints, and we should recognize those are not Vail mandates but rather local governments. 

Unless of course Vail comes over the top and goes with the most restrictive and applies to all resorts. What an uproar that would cause.....


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## tnt1234 (Aug 31, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Epic Day pass is different than buying day tickets. The Epic Day pass is considered a "pass product" except it is only valid for a total of 1-7 days depending on the number of days you buy at the time you buy the pass. Epic Day pass holders will be subject to the same reservation rules as other Epic pass holders (i.e. they can book their priority reservation days starting November 6th). Since an Epic Day pass is valid for a max of 7 days, you can basically reserve all your dates ahead of time to lock them in during that "priority reservation" period.
> 
> Vail will still sell day tickets (starting December 8th). However at the time you buy the day ticket it is only valid for the exact day and resort you purchase it for. So starting December 8th I could buy a single ticket to Stowe for January 15th for example (assuming January 15th at Stowe wasn't already fully reserved by "priority reservations" from passholders).
> 
> The Epic Day pass product gives you a fixed up front cost and you don't need to pick your days up front and can move them around later. You do need to purchase it before they stop selling them though. Day tickets you can decide to buy anytime starting from December 8th, but you'll simply pay more per day.



I'm with you on all that except I thought regular day tickets could only be reserved a week in advance.


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## tnt1234 (Aug 31, 2020)

really, if they significantly limit access, and you have a pass, and spend the holidays in the mountains and score the reservations, this could lead to some nice big weekend days at uncrowded mountains.  

Oh, and of course, the conditions have to be good....


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *I don't think they know the answer themselves yet* as it is at least partially dependent upon what the various states mandate by that point...



And even if they do, I don't expect them to announce the info on a per resort basis.  

Maybe I'll be wrong about that, and I'd love to think I will be, but my cynical azz just doesn't see them floating each bogey.


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## tnt1234 (Aug 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And even if they do, I don't expect them to announce the info on a per resort basis.
> 
> Maybe I'll be wrong about that, and I'd love to think I will be, but my cynical azz just doesn't see them floating each bogey.



Capacity might be more about indoor facilities than anything...


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## Edd (Aug 31, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> Capacity might be more about indoor facilities than anything...



Yes, it seems this keeps getting brought up and forgotten. They’ll make out best if there’s a differentiation between lodge reservations and on-hill reservations. 

I don’t see a way around this. If they limit access to the property at, say, 50% of what their buildings can normally hold per the fire marshal, or whatever, the slopes will be empty. That’s not going to happen.


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## njdiver85 (Aug 31, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> I'm with you on all that except I thought regular day tickets could only be reserved a week in advance.



This is a commonly held misconception based on Vail's clever wording of the reservation system and "week-of" limitations.  The reality is that season passholders are the ones subject to only reserving a week in advance (with the only exception being the 7 priority days that they can hold for more advance reservations and which would replenish themselves as they get used - although this does present some issues in itself).  

BUT . . . as far as regular day tickets are concerned, once they go on sale in December, they can be purchased for ANY day during the season no matter how distant, and by definition they automatically come with a "reservation" attached for the particular day purchased.

So the risk to season passholders is that so many day tickets are purchased for future busy weekends/holidays that passholders get shut out of making a week-of reservation for that busy weekend/holiday.  Now some will argue that this is why you get 7 priority days, and that can help, but if you tie them up for let's say, President's Week, you don't get any more of them until you start using them President's week, so you are probably shut out of Christmas Week or MLK weekend at normally busy resorts.  Others have argued that you should only use your Priority Days for the holiday weekend days, but if you are planning a big trip out West for President's week, do you want to run the risk that you might not be able to ski on the weekdays.  Doubtful - you'd want to have that whole week reserved - so effectively you have tied up your priority days.

Longwinded way of saying that I don't believe that 7 priority days are a fair number to be given to season passholders.  It should be at least double that!

And to those that say Vail has likely crunched the numbers and that won't happen, I do believe that they have crunched the numbers, but I would bet they used those numbers to ensure a policy that would optimize purchase of expensive day tickets.  They probably figured that they would loose a few passholders once they announced the reservation system, but they probably new that they'd be able to sell a lot more day tickets to more than make up for the lost revenue and then some!


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2020)

Edd said:


> Yes, it seems this keeps getting brought up and forgotten. *They’ll make out best if there’s a differentiation between lodge reservations and on-hill reservations.*



This is why I'd like to see hills take a "proof of vaccination" certificate, and that person wouldn't count against their daily tally, thus opening up the sport to more individuals.  Persons with such certificates could ski as many days as they want.



njdiver85 said:


> *they probably new that they'd be able to sell a lot more day tickets to more than make up for the lost revenue and then some!*



This is how I see it, I view Vail's decision as a "feature" of their new plan, whereas others seem to see it as a "bug" in their new plan.  

Vail's going to sell more of those ridiculously expensive single day tickets that "no one buys" then ever before.


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## skef (Aug 31, 2020)

NSAA Best Practices released: "Ski Well, Be Well."


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2020)

skef said:


> NSAA Best Practices released: "Ski Well, Be Well."



Well, that was uhh..., an interesting bit of propaganda.


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## Edd (Sep 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well, that was uhh..., an interesting bit of propaganda.



I’m just relieved to see they aren’t recommending/requiring masks up while skiing. I don’t think I can do it.


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## tnt1234 (Sep 1, 2020)

I don't think neck gators and ski masks really offer the same protector as double layer cloth masks or medical masks.  So I don't think that brochure is really all that accurate.

And as far as skis and boards providing built in separate.....meh....the crush of humanity outside the RIFD gates on big weekends says differently.

Hell, even the the Covid friendly single chair....the back and forth of the maze puts you shoulder to shoulder with other people constantly.


Riding the lift with your party, and the actual skiing is totally great.  But there are definitely other aspects of the sport, even outside of the lodge, that will require a little effort.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2020)

I just saw a television commercial for EPIC pass.  Has Vail done that before non-locally (i.e. not right in a ski market)?    I cant recall ever seeing one before where I live.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 23, 2020)

Interesting announcement from Big Sky (similar to Jackson Hole one below)

"Capacity in the Lone Peak Tram may vary to balance uphill capacity with a safe and reasonable guest experience. A new boot pack route is being considered, beginning from the top of Dakota lift to the Yeti Traverse, providing additional access to Lone Peak terrain."
When we went there the Lone Peak tram was the only lift with any kind of line mid-week, and it was only 15 minutes because it only holds about 15 people.

Here is the JHMR update: "The Aerial Tram will operate but at a significantly reduced capacity on a first-come, first-served basis. For additional access to Rendezvous Bowl and the backcountry, we will introduce a boot pack from the top of the Sublette lift."


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 24, 2020)

[url]https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/09/23/new-hampshire-ski-resorts-winter-coronavirus-guidelines-rules/

https://www.nheconomy.com/getmedia/...ki-area-proposed-opening-guidance-9-22-20.pdf


[/URL]


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