# Vermont Yankee Nuke Plant to Close by End of 2014



## hiroto (Aug 27, 2013)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/vermont-yankee-nuke-plant-close-end-2014-20079356

So, they are closing the plant which generates 71% of electricity in Vermont, which is the
highest proportion of nuclear power in the US.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 27, 2013)

From your link:

"Vermont Yankee opened in 1972 in Vernon. In the past, the plant has  provided as much as a third of the state's electrical supply. Currently,  nearly all of its power is shipped to electric companies in neighboring  states."

Don't think it will have any affect on power & power rates in VT. The state gets most of it's power from Hydro Quebec.

On the other hand losing 630 good paying jobs will have more of an affect on the states tax revenue. Not to mention the effect it will have on the workers.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 27, 2013)

Yeah, with the uncertainty of its closing date, Vermont's utilities all stopped contracts with VY.  So the electricity is sold into the grid.  But the way it all works out the power certainly is consumed in Vermont.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 27, 2013)

Speaking as a Vermonter here--originally from the 'Kingdom.

It's going to be hard to talk about this issue without it getting political. Unfortunately, it got WAY too politicized. 

VY has had a long and tortured history. It was no stranger to litigation in Vermont and in the federal courts. It became the target of folks who were rabidly anti-nuclear. These are the same folks that make a stink over any kind of development in Vermont.  The furor has transferred over to wind energy which apparently is not green enough for them :blink:  

They used the State to fight VY to death. It is too bad because this could have been a constructive dialogue with regards to how Vermont generates sustainable jobs and electricity but instead it turned into a yelling match. It really displays the worst of Vermont really in my mind. In the end, we lost 630 high paying jobs, electric generation, and the opportunity to try to figure out some way to keep the jobs and generation. The plant is quite old. I would have liked to have seen a deal where a new one was built and the old one retired, but that is out of the question with a vocal group in Vermont. 

So now Vermont lost the jobs, lost the electricity and revenue, and is stuck with a decommissioned moth-balled plant. #winning? 

But then again I'm a refugee living in the promised ski land and left in large part because Vermont is just not a friendly place for jobs or business as this debacle demonstrates.


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Vermont is just not a friendly place for jobs or business as this debacle demonstrates.



So true.


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## Geoff (Aug 27, 2013)

Vermont Yankee was an operational mess.   The plant deserved to be shut down.   The operators should never be allowed back in the state.   

I believe you can engineer a cookie-cutter nuke plant that is safe and cost-effective.   The problem is that every plant is a 1-off so you can't nail safety and operational procedures once and simply insist that all plants be operated to the same high standard.   I live within the mushroom cloud of the Pilgrim plant in Plymouth, Ma and I used to live even closer to to the nuke plant in Seabrook, NH and the nuke sub refueling base across the river used to be 1/2 mile away at the Portsmouth Navy Yard.   I don't have NIMBY about nuke plants.   I have a problem with the whole disastrous process of building and regulating them.


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## hiroto (Aug 27, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> So now Vermont lost the jobs, lost the electricity and revenue, and is stuck with a decommissioned moth-balled plant. #winning?



I got curious of decommissioning of nuclear power plant and there are already a few examples in New England, and they do "decommission" the site and not "moth-ball" them.  

Yankee Rowe (MA) Nuclear Power Station 
Connecticut Yankee Nuclear Power Plant 
Maine Yankee Nuclear Power Plant

All of those site are back to "green field" with pretty much everything gone, with small facilities of what looks like rows of caskets with spent fuel.  

loc: 43.951758,-69.696228 - Google Maps

Interesting video of decommissioning of Maine Yankee.


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## hammer (Aug 27, 2013)

I have family (and grew up near) a short distance from the oldest operating plant in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_Creek_Nuclear_Generating_Station

I'm surprised that it's still running at this point.  Plans are to shut it down after 50 years of operations.


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## ctenidae (Aug 28, 2013)

FTFA: _"Before I heard about the closing I wished they would close. Now I have mixed feelings about it," 
_
I think this sums up the problem with most protest groups- rather than being a reasoned, thought out position, it's an emotional response to a poorly understood reality. It's easy to be up in arms and angry about something that will never change, but what do you do once you've had your, however thinly, desired effect?

Dog catches car. Well, that sucks.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> FTFA: _"Before I heard about the closing I wished they would close. Now I have mixed feelings about it,"
> _
> I think this sums up the problem with most protest groups- rather than being a reasoned, thought out position, it's an emotional response to a poorly understood reality. It's easy to be up in arms and angry about something that will never change, but what do you do once you've had your, however thinly, desired effect?
> 
> Dog catches car. Well, that sucks.



:lol:  Exactly!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2013)

...and in other news, excavators were seen last night digging around the Vermont Yankee plant to re-route the Connecticut River around it so that it is in New Hampshire instead of Vermont.


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## hiroto (Aug 28, 2013)

Some more readings along this line. 

I learned that those storages for spent fuel of decommissioned plants were supposed to be temporary and eventually moved to long term storage provided by DOE.  That never happened and those facility continue to spend money guarding the place 24/7 and they are suing DOE for the damage. 

Maine Yankee Fuel Storage
Connecticut Yankee Fuel Storage
Yankee Row Fuel Storage

An interesting DOE report: 
‎Report to Congress on the Demonstration of the Interim Storage of Spent Nuclear Fuel from Decommissioned Nuclear Power Reactor SitesDemonstration of theInterim Storage of Spent Nuclear Fuel fromDecommissioned Nuclear Power Reactor Sites on of theInterim Storage of Spent Nuclear Fuel fromDecommissioned Nuclear Power Reactor Sites


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## drjeff (Aug 28, 2013)

hiroto said:


> Some more readings along this line.
> 
> I learned that those storages for spent fuel of decommissioned plants were supposed to be temporary and eventually moved to long term storage provided by DOE.  That never happened and those facility continue to spend money guarding the place 24/7 and they are suing DOE for the damage.
> 
> ...



Now if someday they'd ever get the Yucca Mountain site in Nevada completed and operational, you'd have a single place to store the spent fuel rods.  But much of the same people who oppose Nuke plants also oppose the creation of a single, secure storage facility for the spent fuel rods, fuel rods that created probably billions of megawatts of clean, cost effective electricity during their functional lifespan


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## drjeff (Aug 28, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> ...and in other news, excavators were seen last night digging around the Vermont Yankee plant to re-route the Connecticut River around it so that it is in New Hampshire instead of Vermont.



I just figure that if the VT Yankee plant survived what mother nature threw at it 2 years ago today when Irene rolled across the area (probably as close to a "Fukashima like natural disaster" as the VT Yankee plant would ever see) that it's probably in a good, safe location for either continued operation or building of a new reactor for continued future operations. Once again, as is often the case with many "controversial" subjects, its the age old "facts" vs. "emotions" debate, and in the end, facts will win over emotions regardless of how much one wants something to happen.

I just hope for the 600+ loosing their VT Yankee jobs, that say the Super Walmart or the Phantom Fireworks or Atlas Fireworks super stores across the River on rte 119 in Hinsdale, NH pay as well as the VT Yankee jobs did, since i'm sure the environmental lobbies that battled against VT Yankee had the best interests on not just themselves, but also those who are and soon to be WERE gamefully employed, and probably at a level were a good deal of them weren't requiring any government assistance to live and support their families with their actions


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2013)

drjeff said:


> I just hope for the 600+ loosing their VT Yankee jobs, that say the Super Walmart or the Phantom Fireworks or Atlas Fireworks super stores across the River on rte 119 in Hinsdale, NH pay as well as the VT Yankee jobs did, since i'm sure the environmental lobbies that battled against VT Yankee had the best interests on not just themselves, but also those who are and soon to be WERE gamefully employed, and probably at a level were a good deal of them weren't requiring any government assistance to live and support their families with their actions



Whenever I try to discuss this point with the anti-nuke folks they just don't get it....probably because they either don't have to work or don't want to work.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 28, 2013)

Good in depth story from WCAX. http://www.wcax.com/story/23264274/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9244328  At the 2:26 mark in the video they interview one of the opponents of the plant; "Leo Shiff" of the "Safe and Green Campaign". I can only shake my head at the guy. He says he is happy that the plant is closing "but the 14-16 months isn't soon enough". Does he have any idea that you can't just unplug a Nuclear Reactor?


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## wa-loaf (Aug 28, 2013)

drjeff said:


> Now if someday they'd ever get the Yucca Mountain site in Nevada completed and operational, you'd have a single place to store the spent fuel rods.  But much of the same people who oppose Nuke plants also oppose the creation of a single, secure storage facility for the spent fuel rods, fuel rods that created probably billions of megawatts of *clean, cost effective* electricity during their functional lifespan



I'm not opposed to nuclear power but if it was clean we wouldn't need to find a big mountain in Nevada to try and bury all the spent fuel. Also, its only cost effective because of govt subsidies, not to mention the cost of storing all the waste.


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## Puck it (Aug 28, 2013)

wa-loaf said:


> *Also, its only cost effective because of govt subsidies*.




Just like wind and solar!!!!!!


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## wa-loaf (Aug 28, 2013)

Puck it said:


> Just like wind and solar!!!!!!



Exactly, but it seems that the people who love Nuke power are opposed to wind and solar subsidies. And vice versa, you should be pro subsidy and lets foster development of as many types of clean(-ish) energy we can. Or opposed altogether, anything else makes you a hypocrite.


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## Puck it (Aug 28, 2013)

wa-loaf said:


> Exactly, but it seems that the people who love Nuke power are opposed to wind and solar subsidies. And vice versa, you should be pro subsidy and lets foster development of as many types of clean(-ish) energy we can. Or opposed altogether, anything else makes you a hypocrite.



Very true, just subsidies for oil and NG also. Too lower level though.


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## bigbog (Aug 28, 2013)

Just my $.01...but it often seems to come down to costs(design & maintenance) VS huge salaries for management.....guess what takes precedence.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2013)

If it had been named Vermont Red Sox Nuclear Plant, instead of Yankee, perhaps it would have gotten a better rap.  


:beer:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Good in depth story from WCAX. http://www.wcax.com/story/23264274/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9244328 At the 2:26 mark in the video they interview one of the opponents of the plant; "Leo Shiff" of the "Safe and Green Campaign". I can only shake my head at the guy. He says he is happy that the plant is closing "but the 14-16 months isn't soon enough". Does he have any idea that you can't just unplug a Nuclear Reactor?



Just watched it and had to sit through the obligatory RRMC ad. 

I heard him on VPR say the same thing. No, he doesn't know what he is talking about. I'm sure he is protesting the wind turbines now too....


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## tree_skier (Sep 4, 2013)

Firstly let me put my name in for one of the many highly paying jobs that King Shumlin has said would the closing of VY would create.  Oh wait a minute that was just in his fantasy world.  Those few jobs will be at the Gaz-Metro natural gas plant he wants to put in up north to line his pocket.

Not only is this an economic disaster for Windham County but it is also a disaster for the environment as the only replacement for the base load electricity is more carbon emitting fossil fuel production.


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## Geoff (Sep 4, 2013)

Somehow, I kind of doubt that the management on-site at a nuke plant makes particularly high salaries.   It's not that kind of business.

Edited:

A quick Google search turned up something that looks like a salary range of $100K to $150K centering on $130K.   For that kind of head count and responsibility, that doesn't strike me as huge dollars.   Every dentist in town makes more.

http://www1.salary.com/Power-Plant-Operations-Manager-Salary.html


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## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2013)

tree_skier said:


> Firstly let me put my name in for one of the many highly paying jobs that King Shumlin has said would the closing of VY would create.  Oh wait a minute that was just in his fantasy world.  Those few jobs will be at the Gaz-Metro natural gas plant he wants to put in up north to line his pocket.
> 
> Not only is this an economic disaster for Windham County but it is also a disaster for the environment as the only replacement for the base load electricity is more carbon emitting fossil fuel production.



Isn't it interesting that nobody in VT even gets that he is completely owned by GMP and Gaz Metro?  I find it completely interesting that everyone yells and screams about VY and "industrial" wind, but they don't give a damn that now one company pretty much is the electric utility for the entire state and that they looked the other way and let CVPS "keep" the money that they said they were going to return to their ratepayers who bailed them out when times were tough.

I'm sad, but glad that I left VT because it just seems to be getting even more crazy up there.  Shumlin has been bad for Vermont and yet nobody gets it.  Since his second term began all the news has been about job losses....very good paying job losses...now by my count almost 2,000 of them gone.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2013)

Boy, they just can't help themselves, can they?

http://www.wcax.com/story/23325764/anti-nuclear-activists-demonstrate-about-vt-yankee


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## Geoff (Sep 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sad, but glad that I left VT because it just seems to be getting even more crazy up there.  Shumlin has been bad for Vermont and yet nobody gets it.  Since his second term began all the news has been about job losses....very good paying job losses...now by my count almost 2,000 of them gone.



Wait until the IBM plant closes.   That's the economic driver for Chittenden County.  You can't make it with nothing but colleges and hospitals.   You need people with high wages to pay for college tuition and gold-plated health insurance to fund the hospitals.   The plant employed 8500 in 2001.  It might barely employ 4000 now.   Once the semiconductor FAB lines become obsolete, it's unlikely that IBM will spend the money to upgrade them.   It's pretty well known within high tech that IBM has been trying to sell the plant for many years.   I did a product that used their Rainier network processor 10 years ago.  They sold that business off to Hifn and the FAB moved from Burlington to Asia.   It shouldn't be long now before the doors close completely.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2013)

Geoff said:


> Wait until the IBM plant closes.   That's the economic driver for Chittenden County.  You can't make it with nothing but colleges and hospitals.   You need people with high wages to pay for college tuition and gold-plated health insurance to fund the hospitals.   The plant employed 8500 in 2001.  It might barely employ 4000 now.   Once the semiconductor FAB lines become obsolete, it's unlikely that IBM will spend the money to upgrade them.   It's pretty well known within high tech that IBM has been trying to sell the plant for many years.   I did a product that used their Rainier network processor 10 years ago.  They sold that business off to Hifn and the FAB moved from Burlington to Asia.   It shouldn't be long now before the doors close completely.



Spot on.  Vermont has done a good job harassing them as well.  

IBM was a very good employer for a long time.  Essex really benefited from them.  But too many take them for granted.


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## Glenn (Sep 6, 2013)

630 jobs is a lot of jobs for that area...or any area in Vermont. Not only do you have those jobs going away, you have 630 less people going out to buy lunch, gassing up their cars, getting groceries after work, doing business in the community. People tend to focus on just the jobs; which in this case, is already significant enough. You throw in the other economic factors and you've got some really big issues. 

I'm speaking from SoVT perspective... There aren't a helluva a lot of jobs around there. Most appear to be hourly type positions. This summer alone, I've seen a few workers from Mt. Snow doing hourly work at other businesses during the off season. Where are these 630 people going to go? Vermont already has a serious issue with "brain drain" (kids growing up in VT, going to school and not returing), now you have more people potentially packing up an leaving the area. 

I've heard a few of the elected officials saying: "Well now we can focus on solar and wind!" That's fine and dandy. But how may acres are you going to have clear to lay out that many solar pannels to generate the same power VY did? Oh, and what happens when the sun sets? Or on cloudy days? Same with wind...you need land for that. And the same people who protested VY will probably protest the windmills as "bird killers". 

The other bit of sad irony: Vermont is a big 'BUY LOCAL' state. You had local power and now you're importing it from a different country.  

And already in progress (man bites dog files)----The people who advocating for closing...are now saying it's all because of 'corporate greed'.


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## tree_skier (Sep 6, 2013)

IBM has said that if VY closes it will relocate as the electric market would become to volatile.  With energizers just closing, IBM potentialy pulling out up north and now 5-10 percent of windham county's economy leaving in a year on top of C&S moving corporate to Keene and united natural moving to chesterfield. We see just how "business friendly" as the royalty up in montpelier likes to claim Vermont is.

On a different not it has always amazed me the number of people, some of them highly educated that are screaming about climate change but the first thing they want to do is to close all of the nuclear plants.  So lets help slow down climate change by taking carbon free baseload power off line and replacing it with fossil fuel plants, because that is the other baseload electricity options and in most of the country that means coal fired plants.


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## Geoff (Sep 7, 2013)

Vermont is incredibly unfriendly to businesses.   

Act 68 has a 2-tiered state school tax that taxes commercial property at a far higher rate than residential property.   

Vermont has a stiff 8.5% state corporate income tax

Act 250 environmental regulations make it very expensive to build large commercial property.   It enables anybody the right to sue at any time to bog down the process.

The stiff personal state income tax, sales tax, gasoline tax, etc add to the cost of doing business and discourage high-paid people from living/working in the state

Energy costs are really high.  I compare my Green Mountain Power electric bill to my Massholia bill and everything is doubled.... both the base fees and the per-kilowatt fees.   I have the circuit breakers flipped off in my Vermont place for the summer and still see a $16.00 electric bill.   Other than the short gas pipeline down from Quebec to Burlington, there is no natural gas infrastructure.   The rest of the country has converted over.   Heating with oil or propane is outrageously expensive.   Anybody who needs to burn oil for industrial use is at a huge cost disadvantage with any other part of the country.

Consider retail.   Anywhere within 40 miles of the Connecticut River, Vermont basically has no retail.   Everybody shops over the river in tax-free New Hampshire.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2013)

Geoff said:


> Vermont is incredibly unfriendly to businesses.
> 
> Act 68 has a 2-tiered state school tax that taxes commercial property at a far higher rate than residential property.
> 
> Vermont has a stiff 8.5% state corporate income tax



This drives up the cost of living for sure and drives a lot of folks out and prevents a lot of business from coming in.  



> Act 250 environmental regulations make it very expensive to build large commercial property.   It enables anybody the right to sue at any time to bog down the process.



As someone that did environmental reg/litigation, VERY TRUE.  The system is really being abused by folks who are using it for NIMBY.  The biggest mistake when they enacted Act 250 was that it was supposed to have a state land use plan enacted with it so that it was clear(er) that development was allowed and what folks wanted.  That's never been done, so instead we have the complex regulatory system and no clear map as to what folks want.  I wish that they would clarify who has standing to intervene in Act 250 because right now it is way out of whack.  



> The stiff personal state income tax, sales tax, gasoline tax, etc add to the cost of doing business and discourage high-paid people from living/working in the state



Add us to that list.  Both young professionals.  What Vermont needs.  And we're no longer there.  In my wife's last year of med school at UVM, many of the grads were considering where to go and with Shumlin's new health plan everyone was worried that there would be no potential to make enough to pay back the student loans.  So where did most folks go for residency?  Not Vermont.  Kind of runs against what having a state med school should be about.  

And lots of doctors leaving the state or not moving in.  Look at Rutland...they can't get any docs and they are right at Killington.  



> Energy costs are really high.  I compare my Green Mountain Power electric bill to my Massholia bill and everything is doubled.... both the base fees and the per-kilowatt fees.   I have the circuit breakers flipped off in my Vermont place for the summer and still see a $16.00 electric bill.   Other than the short gas pipeline down from Quebec to Burlington, there is no natural gas infrastructure.   The rest of the country has converted over.   Heating with oil or propane is outrageously expensive.   Anybody who needs to burn oil for industrial use is at a huge cost disadvantage with any other part of the country.



The oxymoronic thing with all the regulation, NIMBY, etc. is that the only things left in Vermont are monopolies.  Who is your utility?  GMP now.  They have free run over most of the state.  Need groceries?  Well, it's basically Hannaford, Price Chopper, or maybe Shaw's.  All regional/national "big box" chains.  Need basic things cheap?  Drive to Wal Mart a *gasp* big box because there is nothing else.  They've made it so that there is no competition and no chance for others to start anything.  The exact opposite of what folks say they want.  



> Consider retail.   Anywhere within 40 miles of the Connecticut River, Vermont basically has no retail.   Everybody shops over the river in tax-free New Hampshire.



And it's only gotten worse.  I heard on NHPR the other day that 40% of NH's food market/supermarket business is from out of state. That's huge.


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## Geoff (Sep 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> And it's only gotten worse.  I heard on NHPR the other day that 40% of NH's food market/supermarket business is from out of state. That's huge.



I'm part of the problem.   When I winter at Killington at the height of the ski season, I do all my major grocery shopping at the Market Basket chain in Warner (mile marker 20 on I-89) or at the new bigger one on the Manchester/Hooksett line off I-93.   I only do emergency shopping in Rutland.   The local options.... Price Chopper, Hanniford's, and the only Grand Union left standing are really expensive and have lousy produce & meats.   All my alcohol and wine comes from the NHSLS.   Beer & mixers come from Market Basket.

Chittenden County is the only place in Vermont with big box stores and any semblance of specialty retail.   With Lake Champlain in the way to the west and New Hampshire 90 miles down I-89, they have nowhere else to go.  At Killington, my only option is the RutVegas Walmart.   I'm kind of amazed the Home Depot there has survived.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 7, 2013)

My folks summer in Ludlow.  They travel to Claremont, NH to shop at Market Basket / Walmart etc.  They only hit up Shaws in town for last minute or forgotten items as it's so outrageously over priced.  Granted, all Shaws are overpriced, but it was the same scenario when the store was a Grand Union years ago.


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## drjeff (Sep 7, 2013)

Most of the groceries I consume in VT are bought at the Big Y in Greenfield, MA on my way to VT - There are a couple of local, non chain markets I use for some items weekly on rte 100 between Wilmington and Mount Snow - prices actually don't seem too bad, then again I'm accustomed to CT prices 

I figure/hope sometime in the next few years that this trend over the last decade plus of shifting from a less regulated society to and overly regulated society will start to swing back somewhat towards where it was when enough people get sick and tired and finally realize that the regulatory smothering we're under, especially in New England is about 180* from what a healthy, growing, vibrant economy needs!

I also find it very weird that the baby boomers, many of whom were so "anti government for anything" back in the 60's through 80's are now often "let the government do everything for me" today....

Myself, as much as I have thought in the past about practicing in VT, there's no way I'd consider it now. The healthcare program that they've already implemented is essentially doomed for failure as it will literally drive a great percentage of healthcare providers out of business and out of VT based on what it says it will do for how much $$ it will take in and pay out.

VT, as much as I love it to death is pretty much guaranteed to be a case study in the future in the Harvard Business Review about how not to create and retain a healthy business environment

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AlpineZone mobile app


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## steamboat1 (Sep 7, 2013)

Grand Union is no longer in Rutland. Forget what it's called now.

All I know is beer is less expensive in NY.


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## marcski (Sep 8, 2013)

Geoff said:


> Chittenden County is the only place in Vermont with big box stores and any semblance of specialty retail.   With Lake Champlain in the way to the west and New Hampshire 90 miles down I-89, they have nowhere else to go.  At Killington, my only option is the RutVegas Walmart.   I'm kind of amazed the Home Depot there has survived.



And up there...they actually head across the border to our northern friends in Canada for access to some large retail stores that rhey don't have locally.


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## Geoff (Sep 8, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Grand Union is no longer in Rutland. Forget what it's called now.
> 
> All I know is beer is less expensive in NY.



Tops Friendly Markets.   According to the Google search I just did, the Grand Union Wiki says they re-branded the Rutland store on May 28th.   I haven't been in Rutland since the 1st week of May.



> On July 19, 2012, Tops Markets  announced that it will acquire the 21 remaining Grand Union stores in  the Adirondack Region and parts of Vermont. The terms of the deal were  not disclosed. On May 28th, 2013 grand reopening ceremonies were held  for 9 stores which had been rebannered under the Tops Friendly Markets  name. The remaining 12 stores held grand reopening ceremonies on July 2,  2013 under the Tops Friendly Markets banner, effectively bringing and  end to the Grand Union supermarket chain.


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## Geoff (Sep 8, 2013)

drjeff said:


> I figure/hope sometime in the next few years that this trend over the last decade plus of shifting from a less regulated society to and overly regulated society will start to swing back somewhat towards where it was when enough people get sick and tired and finally realize that the regulatory smothering we're under, especially in New England is about 180* from what a healthy, growing, vibrant economy needs!
> 
> I also find it very weird that the baby boomers, many of whom were so "anti government for anything" back in the 60's through 80's are now often "let the government do everything for me" today....



I don't find it weird at all.   At age 55, I'm one of the last of the boomers.   The bottom half (economically) of the boomers have almost no retirement savings and no pension.   They weren't fortunate to be a 6-figure-income dentist married to a 6-figure-income physician where they have an income level where they can create a multi-million dollar net worth to fund a comfortable retirement.   The bottom half of the boomers lived their lives paycheck to paycheck.   At best, they own a modest house outright and many have zero or negative net worth.   Their children aren't usually in an economic circumstance where they can afford a home with an in-law apartment.   They didn't pay enough into Social Security to see a particularly large check.  The median Social Security check is $1229/month so half of retirees get less than that and are at or below the poverty level.   The bottom half of the aging boomers are reconciled to having to work until the day they die.   Little surprise that they figured out that a safety net of social services for the elderly is a good thing.

Boomers were anti-government in the 1970's because they didn't want to get drafted and shipped off to Vietnam to die.   I managed to luck out.   That war and the draft ended 4 years before I hit age 18.  ...but I'm the youngest of the boomers.   I knew lots of families who had older sons come home in body bags.   It wasn't the affluent families because they could ship Junior off to college and get the draft deferment.  It was the working class families who had kids who weren't born bright enough to get into college.

There's something to be said for government regulation.   I kind-a like the Clean Air Act.   Otherwise, I'd be breathing smog every day.   I kind-a like that I can go swimming in salt water because nobody is allowed to dump raw sewage or industrial waste into the ocean.   I'd have no problem at all with a recrafted Vermont Act 250.  I think it's very important to take a hard look at the environmental and community impacts of developing land before breaking ground... particularly above 2500 feet.

With respect to Vermont, Vermont Yankee, and nuclear power, I have the same opinion I've always had.   That plant is obsolete and the plant operations/management has been a huge risk to public health and safety.  The plant should be closed and that operator never allowed back into the business.   I think it's possible to engineer a standardized nuclear power plant, site it in a low risk area (for flood, earthquake...), and operate it safely.  To do that requires strict government regulations and it requires changing law so the anti-nuclear people and their junk science can't make it prohibitively expensive to build new plants.


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## dmc (Sep 8, 2013)

There's a middle ground...  There's a safe way to do this.

But the sins of the past need to be fixed...
And we also need to learn from the past...

$$$ allows bad things to happen to people that don't have $$$..

NIBY....


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