# Is road biking safe anymore?



## thorski (May 18, 2011)

With texting and driving nowadays is riding your bike around town as dangerous as riding a motorcycle? I think it might even be more dangerous nowadays.


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## roark (May 18, 2011)

There's been two head on collisions (both with fatalities) and a guard rail taken out on my usual commute in the last 4 weeks. 

Yeah I'm nervous about the bike commute - I usually take the long route (~4 mi longer, and 20 minutes more... a couple good hills that way) but still some sections that make me rather nervous since cars are going ~50+. Might have to explore mtb commuting (much longer)


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## mondeo (May 19, 2011)

thorski said:


> With texting and driving nowadays is riding your bike around town as dangerous as riding a motorcycle? I think it might even be more dangerous nowadays.


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811386.pdf

Nope. There is no correlation between cell phone ownership and accident rates.


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## SKIQUATTRO (May 19, 2011)

most of my rides have been at 6a-8a on sat/sun mornings where there is less traffic....my lunch time runs during the week i've had to dodge a few cars where i could clearly see the driver on the phone or texting....unsettling to say the least...


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## thorski (May 19, 2011)

I was riding in my town to a state park the other week for some mountain biking and as i was the cars passing me must have been doing 50+ and i was thinking to myself i sold my Harley to be safer and now i'm gonna die on a freakin Mountain bike.
I think from now on i'll throw my bike in the back of my pickup (with it's cool Ski Sundown sticker) drive down to the park and be safer.
I was thinking of picking up a ten speed (if they even call them that anymore) and riding around, but i'm not so sure anymore.
I think texting and driving is more dangerous then drinking and driving.


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## thorski (May 19, 2011)

mondeo said:


> http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811386.pdf
> 
> Nope. There is no correlation between cell phone ownership and accident rates.



I would keep an eye on those statistics. I already know two motorcyclists who have died this season and it just started. I know motorcycles aren't the same but it's the same roads.


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## mondeo (May 19, 2011)

thorski said:


> I was riding in my town to a state park the other week for some mountain biking and as i was the cars passing me must have been doing 50+ and i was thinking to myself i sold my Harley to be safer and now i'm gonna die on a freakin Mountain bike.
> I think from now on i'll throw my bike in the back of my pickup (with it's cool Ski Sundown sticker) drive down to the park and be safer.
> I was thinking of picking up a ten speed (if they even call them that anymore) and riding around, but i'm not so sure anymore.
> I think texting and driving is more dangerous then drinking and driving.


The people that text or talk on the phone and drive are the same people that would read a newspaper, put on makeup, or shave before. The apathy towards paying attention to the road hasn't changed, it's just in a different form now.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2011)

All right, here goes.  :wink:

There needs to be more education of both bikers and motorists.  Both need to know how to interact with each other and how to coexist.  Too often I see situations where bikers feel "entitled" to do what they want to try and compensate for being the minority of road users.  This means doing things like riding through red lights, darting in and out of traffic, biking on the wrong side of the road, and my favorite riding side by side.  Now the next time I am driving and I see my buddy, I guarantee that I will not drive side-by-side to have a conversation with him because we would get pulled over!  The same thing for bikes.  My understanding is that bikers are supposed to follow the rules of the road.  And most do.  But it scares me when I see bikers not following the laws, sometimes ignorantly and sometimes blatantly.


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## BigJay (May 19, 2011)

My take on this:

Road biking is an extreme sports compare to mountain biking for many reasons:

Mountain biking is:
- Solitude and enjoying nature;
- Connecting with the landscape;
- Thrilling when zipping thru the woods;
- Having a snack with a bunch of friends over looking the valleys and wooded areas all around you;
- Seeing tons of wildlife;

Road biking is:
- Fear of loosing at Russian Roulette with an oncoming car;
- Grasping the bars tight while hearing a truck coming behind;
- Sitting on your ass till you reach your destination hoping it will be alright;
- The smell of motor vehicules;
- The sounds of cars pounding on the gas pedal;
- Slurping on a gel supplement next to a road kill.

Definately, road biking is an extreme sport!


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## marcski (May 19, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> All right, here goes.  :wink:
> 
> There needs to be more education of both bikers and motorists.  Both need to know how to interact with each other and how to coexist.  Too often I see situations where bikers feel "entitled" to do what they want to try and compensate for being the minority of road users.  This means doing things like riding through red lights, darting in and out of traffic, biking on the wrong side of the road, and my favorite riding side by side.  Now the next time I am driving and I see my buddy, I guarantee that I will not drive side-by-side to have a conversation with him because we would get pulled over!  The same thing for bikes.  My understanding is that bikers are supposed to follow the rules of the road.  And most do.  But it scares me when I see bikers not following the laws, sometimes ignorantly and sometimes blatantly.




You don't road bike, do you bigbossman?


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## SkiFanE (May 19, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> All right, here goes.  :wink:
> 
> There needs to be more education of both bikers and motorists.  Both need to know how to interact with each other and how to coexist.  Too often I see situations where bikers feel "entitled" to do what they want to try and compensate for being the minority of road users.  This means doing things like riding through red lights, darting in and out of traffic, biking on the wrong side of the road, and my favorite riding side by side.  Now the next time I am driving and I see my buddy, I guarantee that I will not drive side-by-side to have a conversation with him because we would get pulled over!  The same thing for bikes.  My understanding is that bikers are supposed to follow the rules of the road.  And most do.  But it scares me when I see bikers not following the laws, sometimes ignorantly and sometimes blatantly.



Agree 100%.  There were 2 people riding side by side recently near my house, without a care in the world, as if they're at some retirement park in FL,  They had no concern that I had to slow down behind them and pass after the other lane of traffic passed.  And when I did my one/only pace line ride last year, it was for newbies and I was told "you have the right to be biking here, don't worry about that, cars have to move".  Agree...but I'm not betting my life on a 2 ton hunk of metal abiding by the law.  

I'm petrified on the roads, in MA I am out by 6:30am on weekends and don't go out weekday nights.  The only thing I hate about road biking is the road.  Luckily near me I can get a 35+ mile ride in easily without having to cross a red light, but the rural roads are windy-er and have their own issues lol.


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## mlctvt (May 19, 2011)

Just so you know riding side by side is LEGAL in most states including Connecticut. What's not legal is riding side by side and impeding the flow of traffic. 

I never ride side by side when there are cars approaching but many riders do. They say that they're not impeding traffic as there aren't cars approaching in the opposite direction so cars approaching from the rear and easily move over. They might be legally correct but I think this is inconsiderate.
 I lead a group ride each week so I've got to deal with this all the time.  All I can do is ask the riders not to ride side by side but some disagree with me.


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## RootDKJ (May 19, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The people that text or talk on the phone and drive are the same people that would read a newspaper, put on makeup, or shave before. The apathy towards paying attention to the road hasn't changed, it's just in a different form now.



I saw a woman drive while painting her toe nails. No joke.


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## mondeo (May 19, 2011)

marcski said:


> You don't road bike, do you bigbossman?


I'm with him, and I ride.

Stop at stop signs, only block the lane at all when it's not safe for the car to pass, signal, etc. I bend the rules with stopping a bit, but only if there isn't any traffic around or if overall it means traffic moves faster. Essentially, it's how I'd drive if I wasn't afraid of getting a ticket.

I personally hate, hate, hate having cars pace me and will do whatever I can to get them past me as quickly as possible.


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## riverc0il (May 19, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> Just so you know riding side by side is LEGAL in most states including Connecticut. What's not legal is riding side by side and impeding the flow of traffic.
> 
> I never ride side by side when there are cars approaching but many riders do. They say that they're not impeding traffic as there aren't cars approaching in the opposite direction so cars approaching from the rear and easily move over. They might be legally correct but I think this is inconsiderate.
> I lead a group ride each week so I've got to deal with this all the time.  All I can do is ask the riders not to ride side by side but some disagree with me.


This!

As a road biker, I HATE seeing riders two abreast when I am driving a car and trying to pass. It is fine when there are no cars behind you. But it is important to yield the lane to vehicles when safe to do so.

The group ride I do is really good about these. We'll ride two abreast on back roads back when the "car back" calls goes up the line, time to zipper line it into single file. 

Lots of roadies out there with a bad attitude about cars and it is too bad. Part of bike culture is advocating for more respect towards bikers and enhancing a share the road mentality. But many roadies are hurting the cause with their attitudes of entitlement.

So my non-road biking AZers, please consider that you are likely seeing a singular case of entitlement rather than grouping the entire group into that category. You're probably more likely to "count the hits and ignore the misses" in your remembrances. In other words, you are less likely to remember all those bikers that were following the rules of the road and you are far more likely to remember one or two jerk offs that even the road bike community see as problems.

:beer:


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## mattm59 (May 19, 2011)

depends on the road. I averaged 50 miles a day back in the late '70's, then commuted 34 miles a day early '80's. I was younger, braver or less sensible, rode fast, had little issue. Seems to me the roads are crappier now, divers are worse,distractions more numerous, stress is greater. I ride a mountain bike on a few loops around my area, pretty rural, yet even here I get off the main roads asap as people are flying, and it only takes one hit to finish you off. There's a few straight roads around that seem to attract road bikers for the obvious reasons, but I'm real glad I turned into a backroad explorer/mountain biker.
Still remember getting intentionally run off the road after a Ct/VT/FL road trip. Up north drivers were okay; got down around Miami and was getting beer bottles thrown at me and my buddy.


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## thorski (Jun 16, 2011)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bicyclists_struck

What a bunch of morons riding around at 2 a.m.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 16, 2011)

thorski said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bicyclists_struck
> 
> What a bunch of morons riding around at 2 a.m.



Considering the amount of cars on the road during the day in LA, having a group ride in the middle of the night is probably far less stressfull and probably safer (until you factor in the drunks).


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## bvibert (Jun 16, 2011)

from_the_NEK said:


> Considering the amount of cars on the road during the day in LA, having a group ride in the middle of the night is probably far less stressfull and probably safer (until you factor in the drunks).



Exactly what I was thinking.

Calling them a bunch of morons is a little harsh, IMHO.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Stop at stop signs, only block the lane at all when it's not safe for the car to pass, signal, etc. I bend the rules with stopping a bit, but only if there isn't any traffic around or if overall it means traffic moves faster. Essentially, it's how I'd drive if I wasn't afraid of getting a ticket.


 
Had a guy ride right through a red light and right in front of me as I was getting ready to drive into my green light.  That was scary....


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## thorski (Jun 16, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> Calling them a bunch of morons is a little harsh, IMHO.



When you factor in the drunks it's not harsh at all.


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## bigbog (Jun 16, 2011)

mondeo said:


> http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811386.pdf
> 
> Nope. There is no correlation between cell phone ownership and accident rates.



Sounds like a cell phone company stat mondeo..;-), ownership = no, but _distraction_ while driving is a no brainer...


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## bvibert (Jun 16, 2011)

thorski said:


> When you factor in the drunks it's not harsh at all.



Does that mean I'm a moron for riding in the woods where bears live?


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## mondeo (Jun 16, 2011)

bigbog said:


> Sounds like a cell phone company stat mondeo..;-), ownership = no, but _distraction_ while driving is a no brainer...


The point is that cell phones are a substitution, not a new phenomenon. Bad drivers will be bad drivers, that hasn't changed. Just fewer people reading newspapers and eating cereal because they're on the phone instead.


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## AdironRider (Jun 16, 2011)

Living in an area where if you road bike you're just one step below the Dalai Lama in terms of the social hierarchy I deal with this every day. Ive given up caring at this point. 

On the village road daily traffic will be held up by bikers riding 2, sometimes 3 or more, abreast. This causes massive traffic in the Yellowstone/Jackson area but the entitlement among bikers remains high. 

If bikers want to keep riding that way fine, but you are going to get hurt, much more than the soccer mom in an SUV. 

Sure we should share the road etc, but bikers still need to respect the fact that a 2 ton hunk of metal is going to kill you, regardless of who was right or wrong. This is the key element that bikers forget. 

Regardless of the rules of the road, or who has the right of way, etc, bikers need to know that they will always lose in a collision with a car, who cares if you had the right of way?


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## Magog Fishy (Jun 16, 2011)

thorski said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bicyclists_struck
> 
> What a bunch of morons riding around at 2 a.m.



8 miles south of Downtown LA? That is Watts – :blink: frankly, not a place you want to be riding through at any time of night; the riders were coming from Koreatown, so they rode straight through South Central. On the other hand the main boulevards in South Central are generally wide, pavement in good condition, generally well-lit, flat and grid-street system, and yeah not much traffic at 2:00 am aside from the drunks and gangs :angry: . LAPD keeps a bunch of helicopters up in the air at all times -- their spotlight lighting up a neighborhood about 3 nights a week looking for someone and sometimes coming over the loud speaker saying "we have you surrounded".   Certainly must make for entertaining riding! 

I lived for awhile in South Central, although not in the roughest of neighborhoods but still saw it all (as it was LA) – murders, police holding people at gunpoint, friends who were mugged (one at gunpoint), etc. You become streetwise quickly. My girlfriend and I would bike around short-distances during the day to errands/class, and never had any problems with vehicles. At least there was Mammoth for skiing!


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## thinnmann (Jun 17, 2011)

I do a fair amount of cycling on NJ roads, and used to commute. I would say almost every time I see a driver doing something stupid, he or she is on the cell phone.  I love the ones that think they are on the DL by holding it away from themselves on speaker.

I think it is safer in this state to be "out there" when you are cycling.  You are safer when you point a lot, make eye contact, get across an intersection even if the light is red to clear it before the traffic in your mutual direction starts.

Conversely, I know that sometimes I do something really dumb on the bike, and I admit that to myself as well as apologize to the drivers (yea, they can't hear me....)  

I like to believe that cyclists in NJ are less likely to get injured while going down any street than anyone in cars.  In the meantime, I am well insured and I wear my Road ID....


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## thorski (Jun 19, 2011)

bvibert said:


> Does that mean I'm a moron for riding in the woods where bears live?



Have the bears been drinking?


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## thorski (Jun 19, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The point is that cell phones are a substitution, not a new phenomenon. Bad drivers will be bad drivers, that hasn't changed. Just fewer people reading newspapers and eating cereal because they're on the phone instead.



Texting and driving is a whole new animal. Next time you are out driving around count how many people are texting while they are driving.


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## riverc0il (Jun 19, 2011)

thorski said:


> Texting and driving is a whole new animal. Next time you are out driving around count how many people are texting while they are driving.


Not that I approve of texting while driving (don't ever do it myself), but texting is just one form of distracted driving:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/06/what-happened-to-the-war-on-distraction/


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## bigbog (Jun 19, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The point is that cell phones are a substitution, not a new phenomenon. Bad drivers will be bad drivers, that hasn't changed. Just fewer people reading newspapers and eating cereal because they're on the phone instead.



Yep...are an _addition_ to the mix...


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## mondeo (Jun 20, 2011)

bigbog said:


> Yep...are an _addition_ to the mix...


Statistics say they're a substitution or aren't significant.  People aren't going to be talking on the phone _and_ reading a newspaper. They're talking on the phone instead of something else.

Those that will be stupid, will be stupid. It doesn't matter how many options you give them, or how many you take away.


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## mondeo (Jun 20, 2011)

thorski said:


> Texting and driving is a whole new animal. Next time you are out driving around count how many people are texting while they are driving.


Show me the data. It's not like texting and driving is thought to be a safe thing to do, the people that do it just think they're good enough to pull it off. How can you say those people wouldn't be reading something, changing music, programming a GPS, or something else? The key decision is not to text, it's to do something other than drive in the first place.


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## thorski (Jun 20, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Show me the data. It's not like texting and driving is thought to be a safe thing to do, the people that do it just think they're good enough to pull it off. How can you say those people wouldn't be reading something, changing music, programming a GPS, or something else? The key decision is not to text, it's to do something other than drive in the first place.



I see the data everyday when i am driving around. The people who are reading, changing music, or anything else are now also texting at the same time.
 Texting is just a part of teenagers now, and their numbers on the road increase every year.


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## Nick (Jun 20, 2011)

I've been wondering about this even when running in my local area. I live kind of out in the sticks, the roads aren't all that busy but there are rarely sidewalks and I often have to run on the edge of the road. It always makes me nervous - every so often you have a car drive by that really comes up close on you. 

The texting & driving thing.... definitely makes me nervous. I know I occasionally check my phone when driving and I know it's a bad habit I'm working on breaking.


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## mondeo (Jun 20, 2011)

thorski said:


> I see the data everyday when i am driving around. The people who are reading, changing music, or anything else are now also texting at the same time.
> Texting is just a part of teenagers now, and their numbers on the road increase every year.


Anecdotes aren't data. Perception is often different than reality.


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## thorski (Jun 23, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Anecdotes aren't data. Perception is often different than reality.



So are you saying that you think people don't need to be more careful out there with all the cell phones and texting?


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## mondeo (Jun 23, 2011)

thorski said:


> So are you saying that you think people don't need to be more careful out there with all the cell phones and texting?


That's what I'm saying, and that's what the data says.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Those that will be stupid, will be stupid. It doesn't matter how many options you give them, or how many you take away.



Thanks Mike!

words to moderate by


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## thorski (Jun 23, 2011)

mondeo said:


> That's what I'm saying, and that's what the data says.



Well i would strongly disagree, and would recommend all people on bikes be extra careful out there. I wouldn't wait for data to prove it's less safe out there when i can see it with my own eyes. Not saying you shouldn't bike at all, but it is more dangerous then it used to be.
 As far as what the data says, hindsights 20-20.


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