# To wax or not to wax...



## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

Quick question(s), I recently had a mid-season tune on my new ski's, the bottoms are jet black, and I noticed bands of white under the binding area by the edges. I was told that was wear down from skiing.(I used to x-country ski alot, and did my own waxing, I found it to make the skiing alot more personal and enjoyable.) So, when I got them back the area under the bindings were still white around the edges, but the skis were definitely better, sharper edges, new wax, etc.
Question 1:
Is the white area normal and will it always stay that way?

Question 2: 
Should I wax my skis per the weather, different wax for different temps and conditions. I don't mind the waxing, especially if it will improve the performance of my skis. I'll leave the edging and base touch-up to the pros.

Thanks


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

the white is the wax wearing off...its cool to see that on adult skis who know how to edge, the wear is under the bindings, on my 4yr olds skis they are on the tips and tails from snowplowing!!!   How long have you been with out a tune??  I use a universal wax guy I cant do my waxing the day of to mix the proper temp wax....I've never had an issue with my TOKO Universal...


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

I went about 5 times before I had them tuned, the edges had plenty of burrs, and it was still the factory tune. There's a cool little mom & pop ski shop about 5 mins from my house and I took them there.
I've gone out 2 times since the tune, and was just curious if I'm just being anal retentive or I should think about waxing them if there's a change in temp or snow quality, etc.
The edges are in great shape, but there was plenty of hardpack and ice the last 2 times.
Oh yea, and I did wax my old K2's along time ago, I used a regular old iron without the steam holes and it did a fine job, I can't see spending 150 bux on an iron.
Thanks again.
Also, if anyone could point me to a place to buy the alpine wax online it'd be much appreciated.


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## Paul (Feb 9, 2007)

Sheik Yerbouti said:


> I went about 5 times before I had them tuned, the edges had plenty of burrs, and it was still the factory tune. There's a cool little mom & pop ski shop about 5 mins from my house and I took them there.
> I've gone out 2 times since the tune, and was just curious if I'm just being anal retentive or I should think about waxing them if there's a change in temp or snow quality, etc.
> The edges are in great shape, but there was plenty of hardpack and ice the last 2 times.
> Oh yea, and I did wax my old K2's along time ago, I used a regular old iron without the steam holes and it did a fine job, I can't see spending 150 bux on an iron.
> ...



Unless you're racing, or an advanced skiier concerned with shaving another 1/100th of a second off of your time, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the temp of your wax. I like Quattro's advise with the universal. I'm a solid intermediate, and I wax (or try to) after each outing. I try to get as close to the temp of what I expect conditions to be for the next time, but stuff happens. If I wax with a below 22F wax, and the temp ends-up being 38F, oh well. I'm not good or fast enough for that to make an appreciable difference.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

I have a great ski iron ($30) from Tognar....you can deburr yourself inbetween tunes (deburring should be done after everyday on the slopes) and takes about :30sec per edge....if you have the ability to wax/scrape/brush the morning of and get the correct mix for that days conditions then thats the best (You will need a ski iron for that-dont skimp) if not, then a good univ wax will be just fine....

www.tognar.com


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

Cool, thanks. I guess I was just asking if I should re-wax between outings. And if I could shave off that 1/100th of a second when I go down Great Northern at Killington ;-)


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

like Paul said, unless you are racing you wont be able to tell a difference......


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## Marc (Feb 9, 2007)

Universal wax, diamond stone, cheap iron.

Honestly, it depends on the skiing you do.  Racers want to be concerned, cruisers... maybe?  It's convenient to have on flats I guess.  It offers so level of protection against base dings, but I mean... it probably won't do much to protect against the gouges you'd be worried about anyway.  No matter how much wax you put on I don't think it can actually increase the hardness properties of the polyethylene.

And if you do the kind of skiing I've been doing a lot of lately, well.  Rocks, trees, loose snow, soft bumps... not the conditions you need perfect or even really well tuned skis.  I've beat the piss out of my Aztecs this year and they still ski the same in the stuff I really enjoy skiing now.


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## Paul (Feb 9, 2007)

All true, also, wax moisturizes your bases, so even if its not outright protecting them, it helps preserve them for the long run.


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## Birdman829 (Feb 9, 2007)

You should be waxing to take care of your skis more than to improve performance.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

at the end of the year I actually leave the hot wax on the bases and edges for the summer...helps protect the bases and edges from oxidation and drying out


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## marcski (Feb 9, 2007)

Waxing and tuning is overrated.  As stated above, unless of course you're racing.  I used to hand tune and wax everything.  Now, just need to keep a decently sharp edge in icy conditions.  Otherwise, its all about the skier..not even the skis, let alone a tune!

edit:  I've also never had a pair of skis where the bases died out before the ski became a noodle or did some major damage ie. base shots or blown out edges.


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## bigbog (Feb 9, 2007)

*...a good idea to wax every/other skiday*

As Marc mentioned, there's plenty of _stuff_ to do some scraping every day in New England.   When you get the white-ish scrape-off...it's not a bad time to brush off excess, check the bases and re-wax.


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## Marc (Feb 9, 2007)

marcski said:


> Waxing and tuning is overrated.  As stated above, unless of course you're racing.  I used to hand tune and wax everything.  Now, just need to keep a decently sharp edge in icy conditions.  Otherwise, its all about the skier..not even the skis, let alone a tune!
> 
> *edit:  I've also never had a pair of skis where the bases died out before the ski became a noodle or did some major damage ie. base shots or blown out edges.*



_Very_ pertinent point.  Don't underestimate the durability of UHMWPE.  It's a fricken tough material and used as a base for a reason.  Waxing is good so you can beat your friends on flats and make fun of them... but it won't make the difference in years on the life of your skis.


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## eastcoastskiier (Feb 9, 2007)

I wax evry time i go out..  if you have been skiing on unwaxed bases for while you will also get that whitest tint, that is the sign of your bases drying out. and it mean your in need or some moisture...  find that when changing the wax that i use i can make it last a little bit longer.. using a really hard wax tends to stay on alot longer, but you dont get all the results, where as a softer was seems to work better, but gets pulled off a little quicker..  
quick rule of thumb.. the easier it is to put on, the easier it comes off...  if your real short on time a quick lttle rub on is fine, but dont expect it to last 15+runs

answer-- WAX


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## SkiDog (Feb 9, 2007)

marcski said:


> Waxing and tuning is overrated.  As stated above, unless of course you're racing.  I used to hand tune and wax everything.  Now, just need to keep a decently sharp edge in icy conditions.  Otherwise, its all about the skier..not even the skis, let alone a tune!
> 
> edit:  I've also never had a pair of skis where the bases died out before the ski became a noodle or did some major damage ie. base shots or blown out edges.



I agree....sharp edges are far more important that wax.....if they slide...and can edge..im good....I only take mine in for tunes a couple times a year.

M


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

Wow, gotta say I'm impressed with the amount of answers, but definitely confused by them. It looks like 50% say to wax, 50% say not to. If it won't hurt the skis, I'll wax em.

Thanks again. Much appreciated.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

yes, wax.....it helps in all aspects of your ski, like putting oil in your car....put it this way, it cannont hurt to have wax on your skis....you paid alot of money for your skis, take care of em....


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## Beetlenut (Feb 9, 2007)

The only time I  NEED to really wax is in the spring time. A good warmer temp wax will have you skimming acorss the spring slush, instead of getting bogged-down in it. By the end of the day, the energy you save by not getting caught up in the slopp all day, will pay-off! :smile:


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

Thanks again everyone. I'll be picking up some wax, a scraper and an old iron before I head out next week.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

and a brush.....hot wax, scrape, brush and then go over with a scotch brite pad....check out TOGNAR for waxing tips/tuning tips...i wax after every 4-5 days depending on the snow..corn is alot rougher and will scrape the wax off more than fresh powder.....


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## 56fish (Feb 9, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> like Paul said, unless you are racing you wont be able to tell a difference......



Keep thinking that way folks...I'll beat you to first tracks every run.  And, where longer run-outs exist (bottom of Jay in places), I'll beat you to the lift, too.  And, the lounge! :beer:  Being a boarder, I wax to avoid having to skate.  It makes a huge difference in fresh snow.

You can avoid the "base burn" (white under the bindings, near the edges) by using very hard waxes near the edge.


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## Paul (Feb 9, 2007)

56fish said:


> Keep thinking that way folks...I'll beat you to first tracks every run.  And, where longer run-outs exist (bottom of Jay in places), I'll beat you to the lift, too.  And, the lounge! :beer:



Not comparing waxing v. not waxing, comparing wax temp range. I'll beat you to first tracks by setting my alarm clock earlier.


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## marcski (Feb 9, 2007)

56fish said:


> Keep thinking that way folks...I'll beat you to first tracks every run.  And, where longer run-outs exist (bottom of Jay in places), I'll beat you to the lift, too.  And, the lounge! :beer:  Being a boarder, I wax to avoid having to skate.  It makes a huge difference in fresh snow.



Like he said...unless he's racing.....its not a race!

But to each his own.  And to be honest...I'm not so sure you would "beat" me even if you had wax and I didn't!!!


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## Marc (Feb 9, 2007)

Sheik Yerbouti said:


> Wow, gotta say I'm impressed with the amount of answers, but definitely confused by them. It looks like 50% say to wax, 50% say not to. If it won't hurt the skis, I'll wax em.
> 
> Thanks again. Much appreciated.



I don't think anyone is saying not to wax your skis, I think the debate will always be about the importance of it.  And the importance of waxing is not a static value, it changes depending on the type of skiing you do.  It has just a little value to me, which is why I'll do it maybe every 10 days out... maybe.  Unless someone convinces me otherwise.  Which would actually take someone who can explain the chemistry, at least on a basic level, of why UHMWPE needs wax.  Vague, layman statements like "to keep from drying out" or "to protect it" does not really satisfy me without a good reason behind it and where that information came from (aside from making a lower friction surface, I know that works).



SKIQUATTRO said:


> yes, wax.....it helps in all aspects of your ski, like putting oil in your car....put it this way, it cannont hurt to have wax on your skis....you paid alot of money for your skis, take care of em....




One may or may not have paid a lot of money for the skis.  Either way, waxing will not hurt the ski, but it still takes time and money (samething).  If it is not worth the potential returns, than it is dumb to overdo it.

No one changes their oil every 500 miles, do they?


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## 56fish (Feb 9, 2007)

Sorry, I just have that "no friends on powder days" mentality!  Traded a laptop for high-end HF waxes.:smile:


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## marcski (Feb 9, 2007)

56fish said:


> Sorry, I just have that "no friends on powder days" mentality!  Traded a laptop for high-end HF waxes.:smile:



Oh I hear ya..who has friends on a powder day?  Just don't know if waxing really helps in those conditions....and where I ski...


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## Birdman829 (Feb 9, 2007)

marcski said:


> Waxing and tuning is overrated.  As stated above, unless of course you're racing.  I used to hand tune and wax everything.  Now, just need to keep a decently sharp edge in icy conditions.  Otherwise, its all about the skier..not even the skis, let alone a tune!
> 
> edit:  I've also never had a pair of skis where the bases died out before the ski became a noodle or did some major damage ie. base shots or blown out edges.



Completely depends on how you use them. Some people have 5 or more pairs of skis so that a pair can last for quite a few years. I have 2 pair but I like to wax and tune them myself to keep them in good shape. It certainly doesn't hurt, it keeps them in good shape, and it's kinda fun.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 9, 2007)

Time: yes, all of about 30 min if that
Money:  after the intial $30 or so for an iron, its very cheap..less than a pint

Some like sit and watch football for 4 hours, I like working on my skis for an hour on Thurs night when everyone is asleep....different strokes....point is is that i like to take care of my gear whether it be my skis/bikes/cars...


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## Goblin84 (Feb 9, 2007)

Skiquattro, I agree.  I really do like fixing up my skis.  Have a beer or two, takes some time to do my 3 pairs of skis (well, two people are skiing on 3 pairs).  It is really a great thursday night activity.  

I will probably start the same thing with my bike in the summer.  I have only just started getting into cycling.   dont know my head from my butt when it comes to anything with a bike though


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## Terry (Feb 9, 2007)

I wax my skis every 3-4 days out on the hill, depending on conditions. They definately turn better when they are waxed.


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## marcski (Feb 9, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> ....point is is that i like to take care of my gear whether it be my skis/bikes/cars...



Oh, I take care of my gear...but as one noted earlier..its a cost benefit analysis.  Mostly, for the type of skiing I do and where I ski, I don't find waxing to be that beneficial.


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## Paul (Feb 9, 2007)

Agree with Quattro and Goblin. 

There is a Zen-like quality to tunin' yer stuff.










* Geez.... I need to get a life....


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## SkiDog (Feb 9, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> point is is that i like to take care of my gear whether it be my skis/bikes/cars...



The way I look at it....you're skis are going to be a mess WAY before the bases "dry" out from non waxing......

M


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## marcski (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm with skidog!!!!!!!!!!


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## SkiDog (Feb 9, 2007)

The life of a ski is VERY limited.....just ski em...have fun....hit rocks...buy a new pair...BUY USED...it doesnt hurt soo much...

M


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## Paul (Feb 9, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> The life of a ski is VERY limited.....just ski em...have fun....hit rocks...buy a new pair...BUY USED...it doesnt hurt soo much...
> 
> M



Just make sure to buy them from someone who waxed them frequently, otherwise the bases will be all dried-out


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 9, 2007)

Paul said:


> Agree with Quattro and Goblin.
> 
> There is a Zen-like quality to tunin' yer stuff.



Honestly, I feel the same way, Zen and the Art of Alpine Skiing Maintenance


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## SkiDog (Feb 9, 2007)

Paul said:


> Just make sure to buy them from someone who waxed them frequently, otherwise the bases will be all dried-out




Good one......I think you'd have to keep a pair of skis around quite some time for that to happen...HA



M


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## Birdman829 (Feb 9, 2007)

The problem is that if they dry out, the base can warp (giving you a base high ski or something like that) and they won't accept wax well if you do decide to wax them. As for time, I just waxed mine earlier today, took about 12 minutes. I'll scrape them and brush them for 5 before I head out tomorrow morning.


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## jack97 (Feb 9, 2007)

Birdman829 said:


> As for time, I just waxed mine earlier today, took about 12 minutes. I'll scrape them and brush them for 5 before I head out tomorrow morning.



I've gotten to a point of just scraping, I don't bother with brushing.


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## Bumpsis (Feb 9, 2007)

Waxed ski does feel better but waxing is hardly a necessity. The only time I really will take the time and get serious about waxing is spring time  where wet snow can be a drag, I mean, real drag. 
Good application of some soft wax like Toko silver makes for smooth running in spring.


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## eatskisleep (Feb 9, 2007)

My Routine has always been like this:

Wax
Let wax dry for awhile
Scrape
Brush
Cork
Brush


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 9, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> yes, wax.....it helps in all aspects of your ski, like putting oil in your car....put it this way, it cannont hurt to have wax on your skis....you paid alot of money for your skis, take care of em....



This is a really good rule of thumb. I am amazed...and I mean amazed by the amount of answers saying waxing is not important. It is really not important I agree it is CRUCIAL. They make it for a reason and racers use it for a very good reason. If skis came with a owners manual it would not recommend it it would demand it like a timing belt, to use the car example. Sure you can go without it but do you really want to for a long period of time? The answer is clearly no, Wax is cheap and learning how to do it yourself is cheaper, no excuses you need to wax and it is imperative for skier as well as for the ski itself. 
Yes I wax everytime after skiing and yes I wax them myself. I have had several pairs of skis that only recieved sharpening and no wax for there entire life and I have to say waxing is far better at least for me. Try  waxing and compare for awhile then let's see how the answers are.
I agree a $30 tune up /wax sounds crappy, invest in the tools and knowledge. Teach one how to fish and they will eat for a lifetime :grin:


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## 56fish (Feb 10, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> This is a really good rule of thumb. I am amazed...and I mean amazed by the amount of answers saying waxing is not important. It is really not important I agree it is CRUCIAL.



The voice of reason. :beer:


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## Goblin84 (Feb 10, 2007)

im not skiing this weekend (stupid work...which is where I am now so not working too hard)

I feel like I have this void in my life, something missing.  My skis dont need tuning until next week....  I might just knock on our neighboors doors to see if i can tune their skis to give me a pair to do.


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## BeanoNYC (Feb 10, 2007)

OK, can someone explain to me the wax "codes?"  I have some bars that are CH12 one that is CH6 and another all purpose that isn't coded.  I understand that the CH6 is a harder Hydrocarbon wax. (I learned real quick when I scraped it!.)  This should be used in colder dry snow, no?  Also my CH12 comes in three different temperatures.  What's up with that?  How does the same hardness of wax span three different temperatures?   School me, boys.


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## Goblin84 (Feb 10, 2007)

CH is the hardness of the wax.  The lower the number the harder the wax.  The waxes all act a bit differently.  Below is a basic wax chart for hydro wax.  If your just getting into waxing you can pretty much stick to charts, racers go a little more indepth into it (humidty of snow, type of course, type of snow, top speed vs acceleration).   

As for different temps for a CH12 wax...i got nothing for you.   

and Universal wax doesnt have a code because...well its universal and goes on all


http://www.salchaskiclub.org/waxing_glidewaxchart.html


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## kbroderick (Feb 10, 2007)

CH12 appears to be a combi pack with one each of CH7, CH8, and CH10, as sold here.

As far as particular temperature ranges for a given wax, you can also check the source--the Swix racing wax manual.  If that link doesn't work (it may be a one-off, I'm not sure), you can find it from here, which also has a "Wax Wizard" available.


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## BeanoNYC (Feb 10, 2007)

kbroderick said:


> CH12 appears to be a combi pack with one each of CH7, CH8, and CH10, as sold here.
> 
> As far as particular temperature ranges for a given wax, you can also check the source--the Swix racing wax manual.  If that link doesn't work (it may be a one-off, I'm not sure), you can find it from here, which also has a "Wax Wizard" available.



That's it!  Explains a lot...thanks.


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## Marc (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> This is a really good rule of thumb. I am amazed...and I mean amazed by the amount of answers saying waxing is not important. It is really not important I agree it is CRUCIAL. They make it for a reason and racers use it for a very good reason. If skis came with a owners manual it would not recommend it it would demand it like a timing belt, to use the car example. Sure you can go without it but do you really want to for a long period of time? The answer is clearly no, Wax is cheap and learning how to do it yourself is cheaper, no excuses you need to wax and it is imperative for skier as well as for the ski itself.
> Yes I wax everytime after skiing and yes I wax them myself. I have had several pairs of skis that only recieved sharpening and no wax for there entire life and I have to say waxing is far better at least for me. Try  waxing and compare for awhile then let's see how the answers are.
> I agree a $30 tune up /wax sounds crappy, invest in the tools and knowledge. Teach one how to fish and they will eat for a lifetime :grin:



I'm tired, so this may be an incoherent, but- I never used the blanket statement that wax isn't important.  My advice always comes with caveats because I know everyone isn't me.  Yes, I maintain my own equipment for most things I do, but I try to do it intelligently.  The reason skis don't come with an owner's manual is because it is not necessary.  It's a piece of foam or wood sandwiched with composite reinforced epoxy and a sheet of sintered UHMWPE stuck on the bottom with some hardened steel edges stuck in the side.

If it were imperative for me as a skier, as you say, to wax my skis religiously, clearly I would.  Since I don't, clearly it isn't imperative for all skiers.  I could repack the hubs on my bike every week, but since ball bearings are cheap, it is unnecessary and the benefits of doing it don't outweigh the work involved even though it isn't much more work than waxing a pair of skis.

It's great that racers wax their skis constantly.  They do it for a reason yes, to get the lowest friction coef. possible.  That's just not important to me when I'm scraping over thinly covered rocks on a steep tree run.

The answer is, you have to find out what works for you.  The way I use my skis, as was poignantly stated previously, I will end up breaking them, or de-laminating them, or blowing out an edge far before they will somehow be unskiable from not waxing them.  And as a sidebar, I might point out, no one has answered me what specifically happens to them beyond saying they "dry out."  Give me something more solid.  What happens to the PE?  Does it oxidize?  Does it form a protective oxide film?  Does nothing happen?  Well anyway, I'm on my way to bed, rant off.  Although I'm kinda hoping Steve and Austin pop in to back me up on this.  At any rate, not waxing your skis ever week is not a sign of being lazy with maintenance, intelligent, maybe; lazy, no.


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## 56fish (Feb 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> If it were imperative for me as a skier, as you say, to wax my skis religiously, clearly I would.  Since I don't, clearly it isn't imperative for all skiers.  I could repack the hubs on my bike every week, but since ball bearings are cheap, it is unnecessary and the benefits of doing it don't outweigh the work involved even though it isn't much more work than waxing a pair of skis.
> 
> And as a sidebar, I might point out, no one has answered me what specifically happens to them beyond saying they "dry out."  Give me something more solid.  What happens to the PE?  Does it oxidize?  Does it form a protective oxide film?  Does nothing happen?



Stainless/ceramic (bearings) don't wear quite as fast as PE....  Check address below for answer to sidebar...tmi for me!

http://www.skiwax.ca/tp/whitepatch.php


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## Marc (Feb 12, 2007)

56fish said:


> Stainless/ceramic (bearings) don't wear quite as fast as PE....  Check address below for answer to sidebar...tmi for me!
> 
> http://www.skiwax.ca/tp/whitepatch.php



First off, another blanket statement for which there is not response.  Being that the bearings in my bike and the PE on my skis are completely different applications with completely different working conditions, saying something like that doesn't really even make any sense.  Apples to oranges.

Second, the website, you provided is hardly unbiased seeing as how they sell ski wax, and they provided no information that I didn't already know.  It didn't answer any of my questions.  And further more, even if they offered some useful information, how could I take their website seriously when they publish stuff like this:



> When snow is very cold it is much harder and unyielding than at warmer temperatures. This results in the wax being worn away more quickly. Snow that has aged will have lost its nice snowflake structure and now look more like a small ice crystal. Aged snow is thus more dense than a snowflake and is more abrasive. Man-made is not the same as natural snow. Natural snow forms over tens of minutes or hours; man-made snow is formed in seconds. The resulting crystal is similar to aged snow, but with the crystal having sharp edges. This makes man-made snow the most abrasive of all until aging take the sharp edges off.


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## 56fish (Feb 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> First off, another blanket statement for which there is not response.  Being that the bearings in my bike and the PE on my skis are completely different applications with completely different working conditions, saying something like that doesn't really even make any sense.  Apples to oranges.



Kinda what I thought the first time you stated that.:roll:


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## kbroderick (Feb 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> The answer is, you have to find out what works for you.  The way I use my skis, as was poignantly stated previously, I will end up breaking them, or de-laminating them, or blowing out an edge far before they will somehow be unskiable from not waxing them.  And as a sidebar, I might point out, no one has answered me what specifically happens to them beyond saying they "dry out."  Give me something more solid.  What happens to the PE?  Does it oxidize?  Does it form a protective oxide film?  Does nothing happen?  Well anyway, I'm on my way to bed, rant off.  Although I'm kinda hoping Steve and Austin pop in to back me up on this.  At any rate, not waxing your skis ever week is not a sign of being lazy with maintenance, intelligent, maybe; lazy, no.



The bases will oxidize (at least the top layer; I'm not sure how deep said oxidation penetrates), and you'll get more and more "base burn", which is micro-level damage of the structure.  I've seen microscope photos of this, and it basically means that you're dragging a bunch of p-tex hairs on the snow.  It's not fast, and it's particularly problematic on manmade snow due to more aggressive crystal shapes.

I wholly expect to trash my patrol skis within two seasons, tops, but I still tune and wax them every week or two.  It helps that I'm tuning my beer league skis anyhow, so I'm already in the shop, but I still feel that the time it takes to wax the other skis is worthwhile.  Better glide is a good thing, even on skis that go places that result in ski damage.  One place it's particularly noticeable is when poking around in the woods on pitches that have less-than-ideal steepness for alpine skiing and on traverses getting to and from the goods.


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## kbroderick (Feb 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> Second, the website, you provided is hardly unbiased seeing as how they sell ski wax, and they provided no information that I didn't already know.  It didn't answer any of my questions.  And further more, even if they offered some useful information, how could I take their website seriously when they publish stuff like this:





> When snow is very cold it is much harder and unyielding than at warmer temperatures. This results in the wax being worn away more quickly. Snow that has aged will have lost its nice snowflake structure and now look more like a small ice crystal. Aged snow is thus more dense than a snowflake and is more abrasive. Man-made is not the same as natural snow. Natural snow forms over tens of minutes or hours; man-made snow is formed in seconds. The resulting crystal is similar to aged snow, but with the crystal having sharp edges. This makes man-made snow the most abrasive of all until aging take the sharp edges off.



Er, that seems to be largely correct (albeit not well-written) to me.  Snow crystal structures are different depending on age, temperature, and method of formation, and more abrasive snow is more likely to cause white fuzzies (which I refer to as "base burn", contradicting the "base burn" definition of being an idiot with an iron offered by the website in question).  Anecdotally, I haven't had a significant problem with white fuzzies since I moved to Vermont, whereas they were a constant issue when I was skiing at Sunday River all the time (and waxing quite often, too, as I was racing at the time).


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## Marc (Feb 12, 2007)

56fish said:


> Kinda what I thought the first time you stated that.:roll:



This is very simple.  I was using another example of what would be considered over maintenance to illustrate how I thought waxing every time out is over maintenance.  I was not comparing the wear characteristics of ball bearings to polyethylene, you were.



kbroderick said:


> The bases will oxidize (at least the top layer; I'm not sure how deep said oxidation penetrates), and you'll get more and more "base burn", which is micro-level damage of the structure.  I've seen microscope photos of this, and it basically means that you're dragging a bunch of p-tex hairs on the snow.  It's not fast, and it's particularly problematic on manmade snow due to more aggressive crystal shapes.



But the bases don't drag in snow anyway (or shouldn't, theoretically).  The snow melts under the base as the base rides over it which allows the skis to slide.  Wax simply makes the base less water permeable and therefore provides more lubricative fluid on which the ski slides.

Man made snow consists larger crystal sizes so I can see that it would be more resistant to melting because of its lower surface area to volume ratio.  If the base oxidizes then I would imagine it would only do so on the surface similar to a corrosion resistant metal like aluminum or stainless.  I've never seen a base left over the summer unwaxed become totall oxidized.  Often, the white discoloration is barely visible and in any case, I have a pair of seven year old skis that have been left over all the summers of its life without wax and low and behold, the base is still there.  Go figure.



kbroderick said:


> Er, that seems to be largely correct (albeit not well-written) to me.  Snow crystal structures are different depending on age, temperature, and method of formation, and more abrasive snow is more likely to cause white fuzzies (which I refer to as "base burn", contradicting the "base burn" definition of being an idiot with an iron offered by the website in question).  Anecdotally, I haven't had a significant problem with white fuzzies since I moved to Vermont, whereas they were a constant issue when I was skiing at Sunday River all the time (and waxing quite often, too, as I was racing at the time).



Alright, I was a little confused at first by how everyone exactly used the term "base burn."  In any case, I've never had it in any noticeable amount, nor has it ever really harmed a pair of skis I've had.  Certainly it wouldn't take off as much material as stone grinding, and how many times do people have that done of the life of a ski?  I appreciate the anecdotal evidence in this topic since there seems to be a lack of any hard data on the subject.

And this:



> When snow is very cold it is much harder and unyielding than at warmer temperatures. This results in the wax being worn away more quickly. Snow that has aged will have lost its nice snowflake structure and now look more like a small ice crystal. Aged snow is thus more dense than a snowflake and is more abrasive. Man-made is not the same as natural snow. Natural snow forms over tens of minutes or hours; man-made snow is formed in seconds. The resulting crystal is similar to aged snow, but with the crystal having sharp edges. This makes man-made snow the most abrasive of all until aging take the sharp edges off.



is only partially correct and at any rate, is clearly written by someone who does not really know what they're talking about.  Snow is not harder when it is colder, it just requires more energy to bring to its melting point, therefore the water layer at the snow/ski interface would be thinner and the snow may be more abrasive because of that reason.  Aged snow can become facetted snow, yes, however "look more like a small ice crystal"???  Snow _is_ a small ice crystal.  But aged snow can also become rounded anyway and have signifcantly different properities than facetted snow.

At any rate, it is enough for me not to trust the rest of the website, and further, I still have no evidence before me to suggest waxing should be used for much more than making your ski slide faster.


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> This is very simple.  I was using another example of what would be considered over maintenance to illustrate how I thought waxing every time out is over maintenance.  I was not comparing the wear characteristics of ball bearings to polyethylene, you were.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well with all of this typing and resistance to drink the kool aid we are all drinking you could have waxed your skis about 5-7 times OR googled why it is important to wax your skis :lol:


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## kbroderick (Feb 13, 2007)

Marc said:


> Man made snow consists larger crystal sizes so I can see that it would be more resistant to melting because of its lower surface area to volume ratio.  If the base oxidizes then I would imagine it would only do so on the surface similar to a corrosion resistant metal like aluminum or stainless.  I've never seen a base left over the summer unwaxed become totall oxidized.  Often, the white discoloration is barely visible and in any case, I have a pair of seven year old skis that have been left over all the summers of its life without wax and low and behold, the base is still there.  Go figure.



The bases won't oxidize into nothing, they just won't function as well.  The oxidation process affects the microstructure, preventing wax from penetrating the ski should you decide to try it in the future.  Otherwise, you just end up with a less-functional base structure, which will sometimes appear shiny and burnished rather than white and discolored.



Marc said:


> Alright, I was a little confused at first by how everyone exactly used the term "base burn."  In any case, I've never had it in any noticeable amount, nor has it ever really harmed a pair of skis I've had.  Certainly it wouldn't take off as much material as stone grinding, and how many times do people have that done of the life of a ski?  I appreciate the anecdotal evidence in this topic since there seems to be a lack of any hard data on the subject.



Base burn (i.e. the super-small white fuzzies caused by skiing on aggressive snow without adequate wax in the base) doesn't fully remove material, it only starts to pull it out.  That--and the coincident damage to the microstructure of the base--is why it's a significant issue, particularly when glide is important.  If the base burn isn't particularly severe, it can usually be remedied by using a steel scraper or a base planer to remove the offending material, wire brushing, and then waxing.  If it's more severe, a stone grind (and the usual post-grind ski prep) will usually solve the problem.



Marc said:


> At any rate, it is enough for me not to trust the rest of the website, and further, I still have no evidence before me to suggest waxing should be used for much more than making your ski slide faster.



Waxing doesn't just make your skis slide faster, it makes them slide more consistently, including when pivoting through a turn.  If neither more consistent sliding nor faster gliding matters to you, then you probably have little reason to wax (other than, perhaps, to keep the base in better shape so that p-tex is better able to bond to it during repairs; however, I'm not sure how much difference the condition of the base matters in that scenario, anyhow).


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## drjeff (Feb 13, 2007)

If you don't want to wax the bases, then don't!  It will just mean that on powder days, my freshly waxed skis will glide that much better and get me to the lift that much quicker, so my 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th tracks etc, will happen before yours!


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## SkiDog (Feb 13, 2007)

drjeff said:


> If you don't want to wax the bases, then don't!  It will just mean that on powder days, my freshly waxed skis will glide that much better and get me to the lift that much quicker, so my 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th tracks etc, will happen before yours!




What do you think you'll be there what????? 1 minute sooner??? cmon...even a ski that hasnt been waxed in YEARS will still slide pretty nicely..

M


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## awf170 (Feb 13, 2007)

Marc said:


> Although I'm kinda hoping Steve and Austin pop in to back me up on this.  At any rate, not waxing your skis ever week is not a sign of being lazy with maintenance, intelligent, maybe; lazy, no.



I wax sometimes.  I do think it is a nice feeling to have waxed skis but it is not a huge deal.  The only time I think it is really important is in sticky spring snow.  Besides waxing I do absolutely nothing to my skis.  I'm pretty sure the huge holes in the base of my skis will slow me down more than no wax.

BTW: drjeff you will get to the bottom a lot faster than Marc, but not because of his wax.  It is because he turns way too much.:razz:


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## Marc (Feb 14, 2007)

kbroderick said:


> Waxing doesn't just make your skis slide faster, it makes them slide more consistently, including when pivoting through a turn. *If neither more consistent sliding nor faster gliding matters to you, then you probably have little reason to wax *(other than, perhaps, to keep the base in better shape so that p-tex is better able to bond to it during repairs; however, I'm not sure how much difference the condition of the base matters in that scenario, anyhow).



So we get to the crux of the issue... what I've been saying since the begining of this absurd thread (made absurd by me, admittedly).  I'd like to point out that I'm not anti waxing.  All I've been doing this whole thread, while appearing extremely annoying and argumentative, is questioning the conventional wisdom... which by the way is typically a condratiction of terms.  I stand by my original contentions.

The real point I was trying to make is, think about what you're doing, and why you're doing it, especially when it comes to maintaining equipment.

As a side note, when filling holes in your base, the only way to really achieve good bonding, being that polyethylene is a thermoplastic, is to melt the surrounding area adjacent to the fix.

I wouldn't try this though, and most people probably don't because apparently there is a fairly small difference between the temperature at which UHMWPE melts and the temperature at which liquid PE begins to vaporize/pyrolize.  Not to mention I can't think of a good way to attempt doing so....


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## Marc (Feb 14, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I wax sometimes.  I do think it is a nice feeling to have waxed skis but it is not a huge deal.  The only time I think it is really important is in sticky spring snow.  Besides waxing I do absolutely nothing to my skis.  I'm pretty sure the huge holes in the base of my skis will slow me down more than no wax.
> 
> BTW: drjeff you will get to the bottom a lot faster than Marc, but not because of his wax.  It is because he turns way too much.:razz:



Well there you go.

I can't argue with any of that.  Crap.


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## Marc (Feb 14, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> Well with all of this typing and resistance to drink the kool aid we are all drinking you could have waxed your skis about 5-7 times OR googled why it is important to wax your skis :lol:



Fair enough.  Although I have googled the subject many times, because it used to interest me.  I talked to lots of techs about it who all basically said the same things (and sounded like Swix salesman as well).  I need to figure out who the thermoplastic expert in our research dept is...


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 14, 2007)

i need a good pre-base wax...any suggestions?


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## eastcoastskiier (Feb 14, 2007)

Marc said:


> So we get to the crux of the issue... what I've been saying since the begining of this absurd thread (made absurd by me, admittedly).  I'd like to point out that I'm not anti waxing.  All I've been doing this whole thread, while appearing extremely annoying and argumentative, is questioning the conventional wisdom... which by the way is typically a condratiction of terms.  I stand by my original contentions.
> 
> The real point I was trying to make is, think about what you're doing, and why you're doing it, especially when it comes to maintaining equipment.
> 
> ...



i have heard of that as well, when workin on my skis if i have a larger gouge that needs repair i will hold the lighter next to the base for a few seconds just till i see it glaze a little and then immediatly start dripping the P-Tex..

on another note we had a kid come into the shop about a week back and he bought some P-tex sticks.. 3 days later he came back and said he thinks he did it wrong.. I guess he heard the same thing but he didnt pull the lighter away, and bubbled up his base... about 
1in diameter part of the PE was lifted off the core... kinda crazy


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## 56fish (Feb 15, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i need a good pre-base wax...any suggestions?



Swix Base Prep.  60grams, about 8 bucks.:smile:


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## 56fish (Feb 15, 2007)

Sheik Yerbouti said:


> Quick question(s), I recently had a mid-season tune on my new ski's, the bottoms are jet black, and I noticed bands of white under the binding area by the edges. I was told that was wear down from skiing.(I used to x-country ski alot, and did my own waxing, I found it to make the skiing alot more personal and enjoyable.) So, when I got them back the area under the bindings were still white around the edges, but the skis were definitely better, sharper edges, new wax, etc.
> Question 1:
> Is the white area normal and will it always stay that way?
> 
> ...



Don't know if this tidbit will influence  - allowing bases to dry out may shrink the base material a bit.  Leaving the edges a bit high, especially in the tips/tails of wider skis.  This will influence your skiing enjoyment!  Wax on!


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## marcski (Feb 15, 2007)

I have a 7 y.o. pair of Atomic 920's.  I don't think I have ever put them away for the summer with a freshly waxed base.  I also might have them tuned 1-2x a year tops.  

They are fast.  I don't race..but have never been on them saying to myself "man i wished my skis were gliding faster now).  The bases are fine (other than some dings and baseshots which have been generally repaired).  While the bases are not shiny anymore and perhaps have what some of called "baseburn", they're solid.  I have not noticed any difference in the way they glide...I have noticed that they, like all skis, have started to get tired...and don't have as much pop as when they were new. (I will buy a new pair soon...but I demo when I go away out west yearly).  

So, I ask, given where and how I ski...why should I wax?


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 15, 2007)

hey, your car is going to get dirty so why wash/wax/and do oil changes???  its just about taking care of your equipment.  I am sure they are working fine for you.


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## eastcoastskiier (Feb 15, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> hey, your car is going to get dirty so why wash/wax/and do oil changes???  its just about taking care of your equipment.  I am sure they are working fine for you.



and theres the ANSWER OF THE DAY!!! ding ding ding.. winner winner winner


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## SkiDog (Feb 16, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> hey, your car is going to get dirty so why wash/wax/and do oil changes???  its just about taking care of your equipment.  I am sure they are working fine for you.




I wouldnt compare a cars maintenance with a skis....not really the same thing...the wear and damage not changing the oil would do to a car is apparent MUCH faster than you'd ever see in a non waxed ski....now washing....I know people who just dont believe in it...sure it'll hurt the resale value, but in the long run...thats about it, thats aesthetic.

I think the comparison is slightly flawed..

Just my .02

;-)

M


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 16, 2007)

so you were the guy yesterday I saw in the parking lot using an ice scraper on the hood of the car....that wont hurt resale...

a wise man once said "Do what you like, like what you do" so if you dont like waxing and taking care of your gear, than dont, your entitled to it..


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## SkiDog (Feb 16, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> so you were the guy yesterday I saw in the parking lot using an ice scraper on the hood of the car....that wont hurt resale../QUOTE]
> 
> No that wasn't me...I was the one using the hammer.......
> 
> ...


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 16, 2007)

i honeslty wanted to sceam at them (a couple) he was doing the windows and she was scraping the hood with and ice scraper...ouch.


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## Terry (Feb 16, 2007)

I just finished WAXING skis- because I think it is the right thing to do, and now I am sitting here checking out the skiing on the internet, sipping a couple of beers, and watching Greg Stump videos. I will be out on the slopes tomorrow if it kills me!
I havn't skied for almost 3 weeks because I f@#&%d up my back at work. I am skiing tomorrow though even if my dr and my wife think it is a bad idea!  :beer:


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 17, 2007)

did my wife's K2 One Luvs and my Atomics last night...just a quick deburr, 2 passes with the file, a quick wax....was all about 45 min downstairs last night with a few LTA Double Bags....everyone upstairs asleep....now its off with my Atomics to the shop to see if the cracked base is a manuf defect and I can grab me a new set of sticks!!!!


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## Birdman829 (Feb 19, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i need a good pre-base wax...any suggestions?


Toko Universal Wax. 1 kg (4 - 250g bars) for $25 at Tognar. Probably gonna last me 25 years

And people need stop using the glide speed argument for waxing or not waxing. I think I notice smoother turns more than top end glide speed with nicely waxed skis. And that should be more important to most people than how fast they glide.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 20, 2007)

u use the Universal Wax (which i use) as a base prep wax too????


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## drjeff (Feb 20, 2007)

Birdman829 said:


> Toko Universal Wax. 1 kg (4 - 250g bars) for $25 at Tognar. Probably gonna last me 25 years
> 
> And people need stop using the glide speed argument for waxing or not waxing. I think I notice smoother turns more than top end glide speed with nicely waxed skis. And that should be more important to most people than how fast they glide.




The only real time that just about anyone but the highest of levels racers notice glide speed is when they click into the bindings in the base area and skate over to their 1st chair of the day!


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## trailertrash (Feb 20, 2007)

i havent touched an iron to my bases in a few years.  not needed.  use this:

http://www.alpineskituning.com/raysway.waxwhiz.htm

(try it before you discount it)

it takes 5 mins to wax a ski/board.  

its funny to say waxing will help you turn.  maybe if you were on a straight ski.  or if you are like most and skiing a shaped ski like a straight ski.  how can a wax help you bring a ski up on edge?  

a combination of a waxed base and a good grind helps you glide, not just one or the other.
waxing will help protect a good grind.

tree skiers dont need to wax or tune their edges, enough said.  carvers and racers do.  

"factory tunes" arent that great.  check them with a true bar if you dont believe me.  factories dont have great quality control.  see what the base and side edges are reported to be from a ski vendor than check with a true bar, bet it is not the same.

for the best tune arround try Mike D at Summit Ski and Sport.  I am not paid or endorsed by him, just a customer.


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## eastcoastskiier (Feb 21, 2007)

has anyone ever used one of those pure teflon rub-ons.  I have seen them and they recommend using it over top of a fresh wax and its suppost to stay on for 2-3 days on the mountain. From what i hear in spring conditions its amazing, and they even say that it will stay on in the course, coldsnow.  Any users?


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## Marc (Feb 21, 2007)

eastcoastskiier said:


> has anyone ever used one of those pure teflon rub-ons.  I have seen them and they recommend using it over top of a fresh wax and its suppost to stay on for 2-3 days on the mountain. From what i hear in spring conditions its amazing, and they even say that it will stay on in the course, coldsnow.  Any users?



Interesting concept since UHMWPE supposedly has a coefficient of friction very similar to teflon.

A little more about UHMWPE from Wiki (not the most reliable source, I know) but this should give you an idea about the toughness of the material:



> The high molecular weight results in a *very tough material.*  Because of its outstanding toughness, cut, wear and *excellent chemical resistance,* UHWMPE is used in a wide diversity of applications. These include *can and bottle handling machine parts, moving parts on weaving machines, bearings, gears, artificial joints, edge protection on ice rinks, butchers' chopping boards. *



Anyone worried about "oxidation" and snow hurting the bottom of their skis I'd say is going a little overboard.  Or a lot.  I fly stunt kites with Dyneema lines (made from spun UHMWPE) and never wax that.  If line that thin is not affected by "oxidation" or "burn" than I have a hard time seeing my bases fall victim to anything harmful.  I don't wax my cutting boards.  Wax is good for better glide (which I'll admit can be important, for spring skiing for instance as mention) and that's it.  Anything else and you're falling victim to Swix's marketing tactics.


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Feb 22, 2007)

Wow, can't believe this thing is still alive. Thanks again, all the input was great.


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## 56fish (Feb 22, 2007)

Marc said:


> Anyone worried about "oxidation" and snow hurting the bottom of their skis I'd say is going a little overboard.  Or a lot.  I fly stunt kites with Dyneema lines (made from spun UHMWPE) and never wax that.  If line that thin is not affected by "oxidation" or "burn" than I have a hard time seeing my bases fall victim to anything harmful.  I don't wax my cutting boards.  Wax is good for better glide (which I'll admit can be important, for spring skiing for instance as mention) and that's it.  Anything else and you're falling victim to Swix's marketing tactics.



:argue: 

Don't know if this tidbit will influence - allowing bases to "dry out" may shrink the base material a bit. Leaving the edges a bit high, especially in the tips/tails of wider skis.  See it every day here at the shop. This will influence your skiing enjoyment! Wax on!:wink:


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## trailertrash (Feb 22, 2007)

56fish said:


> Don't know if this tidbit will influence - allowing bases to "dry out" may shrink the base material a bit. Leaving the edges a bit high, especially in the tips/tails of wider skis.  See it every day here at the shop. This will influence your skiing enjoyment! Wax on!



just curious.  how do you know that high edges are from not waxing?  you are seeing an effect in your shop but how do you know the cause?  how are you drawing these conclusions?

not meant to be an argument, just curious.


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## 56fish (Feb 22, 2007)

trailertrash said:


> just curious.  how do you know that high edges are from not waxing?  you are seeing an effect in your shop but how do you know the cause?  how are you drawing these conclusions?
> 
> not meant to be an argument, just curious.



No proof.  Just an observation on my part.  And, a general consensus among ski techs I've know thru the years.  Edge-high; much more common in poorly maintained, infrequently used skis & boards.  Rarely seen in well maintained equipment.


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## marcski (Feb 22, 2007)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> hey, your car is going to get dirty so why wash/wax/and do oil changes???  its just about taking care of your equipment.  I am sure they are working fine for you.



I change the oil every 3,000 or 5,000 if using synthetic oil.  There is a direct correlation between dirty oil and engine sludge and other issues.  I have yet to see any correlation whatsoever with regard to waxing my skis given the type of skiing I do.  
As for washing....I don't really wash them that often.  (Cars that is. I shower daily...1/2 the time 2x a day.). I'm a little better now with my new car since I own it.  I never washed my last one that I leased.  Ever.  (The dealer did when I brought it in for servicing).  

And I still can't believe this thread is going on. First time I've read it since my last post a week or so ago.

Oh and one of my cars I never washed...(a honda) ....went to 236,000 miles.


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## Marc (Feb 23, 2007)

56fish said:


> :argue:
> 
> Don't know if this tidbit will influence - allowing bases to "dry out" may shrink the base material a bit. Leaving the edges a bit high, especially in the tips/tails of wider skis.  See it every day here at the shop. This will influence your skiing enjoyment! Wax on!:wink:



1) If you can explain to me what molecules leave the chains of polyethylene I'd be more open to the idea a sheet of it can dry out and shrink.  This would be a major concern in some of the applications I mentioned earlier (for instance PE bearings) yet no one keeps that waxed with any type of hydrocarbon or flourocarbon based paraffin wax.

2) Haven't seen this type of wear on my chitty Rossi's.  I suspect a different cause.  That is of course conjecture, but it is less so than yours.  Remember, of the term "conventional wisdom," usually only the first word is accurate.

3) The snow and conditions I like to ski, even if my edges were slightly higher, it wouldn't affect my skiing enjoyment.

4) If this thread goes on any longer, we're going to have to invent some kind of riduculous award for it.


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## SkiDog (Feb 23, 2007)

ive got pairs and pairs of old skis sitting in a damp"ish" basement...some have been there over 10 years....I looked at them the other day.....they WERE NOT stored with fresh wax...and there is no NOTICEABLE base changes....no raised edges...no shrunken or cracked bases....

Waxing isn't necessary...IMHO it does help though 

Happy sliding..

M


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 23, 2007)

4) If this thread goes on any longer, we're going to have to invent some kind of riduculous award for it

was just thinking the same thing...poor Sheik I think has now bought a farm in Kansas...


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## BeanoNYC (Feb 23, 2007)

I enjoy waxing.  So I will continue regardless of who wins this argument.


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## trailertrash (Feb 23, 2007)

i might suggest the base is shrinking from too hot an iron?  or using an iron too much?


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## SkiDog (Feb 23, 2007)

trailertrash said:


> i might suggest the base is shrinking from too hot an iron?  or using an iron too much?




ahhhhhhh good thought.......maybe waxing is really EVIL.... ;-)

hey do what you want...wax or don't....its your deal.....i certainly dont do it as often as I used to.....

M


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## 56fish (Feb 23, 2007)

BeanoNYC said:


> I enjoy waxing.  So I will continue regardless of who wins this argument.



 Peace out.:beer:


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## cbcbd (Feb 23, 2007)

I like taking care of my things (when I give myself time to do so). 
It gives me a renewed love for my skis/bikes/kayaks/car/climbing gear after working on them.


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## ctenidae (Feb 23, 2007)

So, which is it? Wax or no?


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 23, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> So, which is it? Wax or no?



as Websters describes "intransitive verb : to glide on skis in travel or as a sport" 

To glide one would think wax would be a big part of this....not to some apparently.


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## Marc (Feb 23, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> as Websters describes "intransitive verb : to glide on skis in travel or as a sport"
> 
> To glide one would think wax would be a big part of this....not to some apparently.



Because clearly paraffin wax is the only substance capable of sliding on snow...


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 23, 2007)

Marc said:


> Because clearly paraffin wax is the only substance capable of sliding on snow...



I will elaborate for you...you can certainly simply lay down and roll down the street and still get to the end OR you can walk down the street and get there easier and more comfortably no? Let's think about that for a minute


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## adamti91 (Feb 23, 2007)

I'll get my board tuned (filled, waxed, edged) at Potter Brothers 3 times a season (before, middle, last few weeks), and keep some DaKine rub on stuff around and put that on before every day up just to keep something on the bottom of the board.


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## awf170 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> I will elaborate for you...you can certainly simply lay down and roll down the street and still get to the end OR you can walk down the street and get there easier and more comfortably no? Let's think about that for a minute




Or you could spend that time skiing instead which will make you ski faster and smoother than spending that time waxing...

Seriously though, I understand if you are skiing groomers or even powder on top of a groomer, but do you guys really think waxing does a thing in moguls and woods?  The rocks, dirt, grass, and brush that you hit in between turns does a lot more to slow you down then not having a waxed ski ever would.


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 24, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Or you could spend that time skiing instead which will make you ski faster and smoother than spending that time waxing...
> 
> Seriously though, I understand if you are skiing groomers or even powder on top of a groomer, but do you guys really think waxing does a thing in moguls and woods?  The rocks, dirt, grass, and brush that you hit in between turns does a lot more to slow you down then not having a waxed ski ever would.



I think it helps you turn your boards faster in tight spots and if you are skiing tree's in NE you know how important that is. Also helps a ton on run outs or traversing in the backcountry. Would be great if every trail went to the lift with no flat areas but if you are skiing out of bounds "gliding" becomes necessary.


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## awf170 (Feb 24, 2007)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> Also helps a ton on run outs or traversing in the backcountry.



I really doubt that.  Doing a few pushes off with your pole or knowing how to gain speed on rollers is going to give you way more speed than wax will.


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## 56fish (Feb 24, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I really doubt that.  Doing a few pushes off with your pole or knowing how to gain speed on rollers is going to give you way more speed than wax will.



Pole?:???:


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Feb 25, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I really doubt that.  Doing a few pushes off with your pole or knowing how to gain speed on rollers is going to give you way more speed than wax will.



you doubt? I thought you spoke from experience on the subject:roll:


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## Skibum_dan (Feb 26, 2007)

Wow. In all honesty I find it kind of surprising that people would question the benefits of a tuned ski. I can understand that the extent to which you tune would depend on the kind of skiing you do but hands down, a tuned pair of skis feels a lot nicer. 
I use a Toko all-purpose wax that I buy in bulk. This on-line purchase of about 10 dollars has lasted me three seasons so far. I ski about 35-40 times a year and wax about every three days of skiing or so. I would say this rules out the cost/benefit reasoning for not waxing. This wax serves well for almost all conditions. It’s cheap as hell and not considered a high performance wax in the least but in comparison to not waxing at all, I feel like freakn Race-atron 5000. If you get fussy you can use a cold wax and a warm wax for the extreme temps. I do notice the difference if my skis are not waxed. I also put a thick layer of all purpose on throughout the summer for protection. I’m not a racer. I just like a ski that performs well.
It’s true that if you are in the woods/soft snow for the majority of the time you don’t need the sharpest edge in the world but lets face it, at the start of the season it’s nice to have a sharp edge on some of that bullet proof hard pack/ man made snow. A diamond stone can do a lot to get rid of burs and sharpening your own skis is not that hard after getting some proper instruction. I was pretty timid about taking a file to my edges for a while but after going to a tuning clinic I found that it is not that hard to do correctly. It saves money in the long run and makes for a more enjoyable ski. 
If for no other reason, (and many reasons have already been listed in previous posts) tune your skis because skiing on tuned skis is more enjoyable. 
I don’t think that the tuning ski/tuning car parallel is unreasonable. I probably take better care of my skis than I do my car. Ha. This isn’t to say that I don’t beat the piss out of them or ski them hard. Scrapes, dulled edges, core shots and the like happen. It’s just nice to know that you don’t have to A) replace your ski or B) ski slow on skis with no teeth because of this.


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## Skibum_dan (Feb 26, 2007)

There are ineed some long traverses that would suck pretty bad if you hadn't waxed in a while. Also, anyone ever come out on 108 in the Notch after doing the bowls? That can be a long slow flat back to the lift on a powder day. I can imagine it being even slower with a crappy base. 
White fuzz on the bottoms=No good. I have seen some bases that look down right hairy.....grey beards growing on ski bases!!! Maybe they are strickly for ascents:blink:  Like a built pair of skins.......


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## ctenidae (Feb 26, 2007)

Seems to me that waxing certainly doesn't hurt any, no matter what kind of skiing you do, and it most likely helps some, no matter what kind of skiing you do.

There's also the Zen-type enjoyment of sitting down with a coupleof beers and working on your skis, whether you really know what you're doing or not. Kind of like hockey players who constantly re-tape the top of their sticks, or lacrosse players fidgeting with their baskets, or tennis players playing with their strings. It's a Zen thing, baby. Go with it.

If you want to wax and tune your skis, go for it. I thin it's relaxing. If you're depending on getting just the right wax and edge for just the right conditions, then you're probably missing out on some of the more enjoyable parts of skiing.


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