# Permanent Industry Changes in the Post-COVID World



## ss20 (Mar 13, 2021)

Arapahoe Basin says they're not gonna stop limiting capacity... https://unofficialnetworks.com/2021/03/12/abasin-season-pass-model/



> _*“A-Basin is bucking the traditional ski resort sales model of “sell as much access product as possible” and is reducing the number of unrestricted A-Basin passes by 10 percent. When they are sold out, they are sold out. Lift tickets will also continue to be limited and will only be sold online and in advance.
> 
> For us, it’s not complicated. We believe great skiing and riding should be about great skiing and riding. It should not be about standing in long lift lines all the time or struggling to find parking. It should not be about new snow getting completely skied off by noon. We are doing what we feel we need to do to protect the A-Basin experience.
> 
> Simply put, we recognize that keeping crowd sizes down and spreading people out will make the experience on our 1,428 acres better for everyone. Limiting pass and ticket sales this season for COVID-19 health and safety reasons showed us that we can be successful and have happier guests when we do that.”*_



There's certainly gonna be a lot of stuff that's changed forever.  COVID is more than likely the last nail in the coffin for the walk-up lift ticket at the major resorts.  10 years ago that would've been unfathomable.


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## snoseek (Mar 13, 2021)

I could see the busier, larger resorts near big population centers like the I-70 resorts and LCC/BCC going this route for good reason. Somewhere like Wildcat or Saddleback would kind of suck as the weather can get so weird.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 13, 2021)

Pretty likely the reservation system is here to stay (at the places that had it this year).


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## machski (Mar 13, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Pretty likely the reservation system is here to stay (at the places that had it this year).


I cannot see a reservation system for unlimited season pass holders surviving.  That just kills the entire idea of unlimited and wow to any operator (Vail) that may decide to continue that.  Now, they could shift to a more definitive limited quantity of passes, but for Vail and Alterra, I don't see how that would work within their model.

I can see parking reservation s sticking around at areas with limited traffic capacity (BCC/LCC resorts in particular) but not at places like Killington.  I also see what Boyne is doing with the NEP's this year where they are on sale in unlimited quantities but only through April 30th.  They will then come off sale with passes being offered later in the summer but some products may not be available then.  Day tickets needed to be purchased in advance with definitive caps could stick around too.


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## abc (Mar 13, 2021)

ss20 said:


> There's certainly gonna be a lot of stuff that's changed forever.  COVID is more than likely the last nail in the coffin for the walk-up lift ticket at the major resorts.  10 years ago that would've been unfathomable.


I would think instead of being the last nail in walk-up lift tickets, it maybe the last nail in unlimited season pass!

Especially "unlimited access" part of those cheap multiple mountain passes.


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## Zermatt (Mar 13, 2021)

Make Skiing Expensive Again!


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

The places without deep pockets are certainly not going to limit ticket sales going forward.  They need to get as many people to show up as they can.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> The places without deep pockets are certainly not going to limit ticket sales going forward.  They need to get as many people to show up as they can.


And the ones who have share holders are?


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## drjeff (Mar 13, 2021)

No more boot bags in the lodges.... I could handle that

Some type of reservation system with limited time amounts for tables in the lodges.... I could handle that as well


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## Mum skier (Mar 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> No more boot bags in the lodges.... I could handle that
> 
> Some type of reservation system with limited time amounts for tables in the lodges.... I could handle that as well


Yes I have liked the quieter lodge. Being able to get a table for lunch rather than contend with all the boot bags and non skiing family members who camp out all day taking up an 8 person table for one person has been good.  Half an hour is enough for a food break.  Booting up at the car seems to save time, seems we have less to carry now as you wear most of it. Just have to carry the skis or board not all the boots, pants, helmets in a huge bag.


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## JimG. (Mar 13, 2021)

abc said:


> I would think instead of being the last nail in walk-up lift tickets, it maybe the last nail in unlimited season pass!
> 
> Especially "unlimited access" part of those cheap multiple mountain passes.


I agree with you on the part about no unlimited access anywhere for mountains on megapasses. Although I'm sure property owners at those mountains will have something to say about that.

Independent mountains will wisely cater to the traditional season passholder. They will offer season passes for the savvy skier/boarder for a period of time and then shut off season pass sales for the season. Then they will offer day tickets on a limited and expensive basis.


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> No more boot bags in the lodges.... I could handle that
> 
> Some type of reservation system with limited time amounts for tables in the lodges.... I could handle that as well



One thing regarding bags, groups coming in buses don't really have the option to not gear up and leave all their stuff in the lodge.  Also places where you have to park far away, leaving your stuff in the car is a real pain especially if you have to go back to the car to get something.  And booting up in the lodge is far superior to booting up in a gravel parking lot imo



Smellytele said:


> And the ones who have share holders are?



I agree, I would be surprised if many places permanently limit ticket sales.  No way many places will see limiting tickets as improving the bottom line or even the customer experience enough to justify turning people away.  Also it seemed to me that the ticket sales weren't even capped that low most places anyway - even non-epic places seemed to be busier than usual and not just because lift capacity was limited.

I don't like buying tickets online.  I would rather pay in cash and would rather pay once I am physically there and ready to ski, unless you are really getting a discount for purchasing in advance- what if the place is packed or conditions are not what was expected?  What if something comes up and you don't make it?  How do you chase the snow?  You cannot in many cases spontaneously decide to go - and what about the no-shows?  Let people ski - if you don't want to wait in line, don't go when/where it is busy - everyone else has just as much right to ski as you.

I hope people don't get permanently weirded out by sharing chairs because I really miss meeting people on the lift.  Many people in PA did not even want to share quad chairs although this was not the case at Gore.

I also hope big group lessons come back because it is hard enough to get people to try their hand at skiing without having to convince them to cough up $100+ for a private lesson.

The only change I hope lasts is that more people seem to be skiing and more people are skiing more.  This is good - more friends who will ski with you, the industry has more revenue for improvements and less places will be at risk of going NELSAP.  This industry has been flat for years, people getting out of the house and doing stuff besides staring at screens is a good thing.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 13, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Pretty likely the reservation system is here to stay (at the places that had it this year).


I hope not.  But then again I survived without a mega pass this year, I can continue to do so going forward if the reservation systems stay


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## ThatGuy (Mar 13, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I agree with you on the part about no unlimited access anywhere for mountains on megapasses.


I feel like an ideal solution for the mega passes would be 5-7 days at each resort with discounted tickets after that (and not the garbage buddy discount offered now). Maybe for a higher price point you could choose a home mountain for unlimited access.


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## Zand (Mar 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> No more boot bags in the lodges.... I could handle that
> 
> Some type of reservation system with limited time amounts for tables in the lodges.... I could handle that as well


Count me out on both of those. 

If anything, the lodges need more cubbies/lockers/storage space. Some mountains have a ton, but too many have none. They should enforce no bags on/under tables. There are some days when booting up in the lodge is infinitely better than at the car.

Also my wife is a non skier and occasionally tags along on my ski trips and reads in the lodge. If any ski area ever has time limits for reasons outside of covid I will never give them my business again. I agree it's obnoxious when one person hogs an entire table and that should be dealt with, but there should absolutely never be a "reservation system" for the main seating area of a lodge after the pandemic is over.

I'm sure you could "handle all that" when your family can just go back to your condo if this stuff were to continue permanently. Some of us don't have that luxury.


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> One thing regarding bags, groups coming in buses don't really have the option to not gear up and leave all their stuff in the lodge.  Also places where you have to park far away, leaving your stuff in the car is a real pain especially if you have to go back to the car to get something.  And booting up in the lodge is far superior to booting up in a gravel parking lot imo



I have problems comprehending why booting up at the car is an issue or why you need to go back to the car to get something. I've been booting up at the car for 15+ years now probably so this wasn't a change at all for me this year. Maybe I'm just inherently not trusting of other people, but I have no desire to ever leave stuff in the lodge.

You might have a point on buses though. Although I don't see why it would be impossible to boot up at the bus and leave your stuff on the bus either.


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## JimG. (Mar 13, 2021)

Zand said:


> Count me out on both of those.
> 
> If anything, the lodges need more cubbies/lockers/storage space. Some mountains have a ton, but too many have none. They should enforce no bags on/under tables. There are some days when booting up in the lodge is infinitely better than at the car.
> 
> ...


I'll admit I like the car/lodge thing. I like my own territory which is something tough to stake out in a lodge. 

But I also agree that the lodge is preferable on certain days and agree it is important for spouses/family members/friends who don't ski but want to come along.


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## JimG. (Mar 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> You might have a point on buses though. Although I don't see why it would be impossible to boot up at the bus and leave your stuff on the bus either.


Clearly you don't have kids. Consider how that might "work out" with a bus on a high school bus trip. I assure you the bus driver isn't going to sit there and open and close the door all day to accommodate forgetful teenagers. And how will anyone be able to boot up in a crowded bus?


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Clearly you don't have kids. Consider how that might "work out" with a bus on a high school bus trip. I assure you the bus driver isn't going to sit there and open and close the door all day to accommodate forgetful teenagers. And how will anyone be able to boot up in a crowded bus?



I don't have kids, but I was a kid. I didn't say boot up in the bus. I said at the bus (aka outside it just like everyone is doing at their cars right now). As a kid, I don't remember once having to go back and get anything after I started skiing. What exactly are people forgetting so often that this is an issue? If you're missing your gloves, helmet, goggles, etc, wouldn't you realize that immediately as you start walking away from the bus? Only one time did I forget something (left my gloves in the condo on a warm spring day).


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

Don't you ever need to add or remove layers as the conditions/temperature changes through the day? I like to keep a water bottle in my bag too.

Cubbies definitely the way to go - provide cubbies and then ban gear from the tables.  Roundtop does this and it is nice.  Blue has a boot up room, no cubbies but everyone just leaves all their crap lying around in there rather than by the tables so that works too.  Obviously don't leave stuff lying around that would be mega bad if it was stolen but I haven't had any of my stuff snatched yet.  Most local places around here have free ski checks at least.


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Don't you ever need to add or remove layers as the conditions/temperature changes through the day? I like to keep a water bottle in my bag too.



Sure...that's one reason I have a backpack. Although the adding/removing layer thing usually only happens in the spring. Extremely rare that I ever need to do that on a normal mid-winter day.


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Sure...that's one reason I have a backpack. Although the adding/removing layer thing usually only happens in the spring. Extremely rare that I ever need to do that on a normal mid-winter day.


I don't enjoy skiing with a backpack but maybe I should invest in a fanny pack lol.  I can fit a lot of stuff in my jacket and pockets but not extra layers, and not if I'm not wearing the jacket.

IMO temperatures are usually variable enough throughout the course of a day to warrant a layer change or so, even up north.  Especially true if you stick around somewhere with night skiing.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I have problems comprehending why booting up at the car is an issue or why you need to go back to the car to get something. I've been booting up at the car for 15+ years now probably so this wasn't a change at all for me this year. Maybe I'm just inherently not trusting of other people, but I have no desire to ever leave stuff in the lodge.
> 
> You might have a point on buses though. Although I don't see why it would be impossible to boot up at the bus and leave your stuff on the bus either.



It comes down to personal preference.  I vastly prefer gearing up leisurely in the lodge.  I mean it's warm, out of the elements and you're standing on carpet vs outside, in the cold and balancing over gravel or maybe a mat of some sort.  

Also I think you and Dr Jeff in this thread, maybe others who are in favor of parking lot boot ups have a different perspective because of your proximity to the mountain. 

If I'm staying near the resort, say within 30 minutes, I'll mostly fully gear up before leaving my lodging and just throw the boots on at the car.  But that's only a handful of days of the season.  Most days I'm driving 1:20-2:15 each way to ski.  On the way up at minimum I don't wear my ski socks as that's a recipe for cold feet.  On the way home, I typically want to change into some jeans. I'd rather do both in the lodge 

Put me in the camp of no time limit or reservation cafeteria seating in ski lodges, booting up being welcome and a mandatory bag check that's well enforced.   

Then maybe expand full service dining areas with mandatory reservations to help spread out the lunch hour and allow those who want to plan for a comfortable spot for lunch the opportunity to do so.


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I don't enjoy skiing with a backpack but maybe I should invest in a fanny pack lol.  I can fit a lot of stuff in my jacket and pockets but not extra layers, and not if I'm not wearing the jacket.
> 
> IMO temperatures are usually variable enough throughout the course of a day to warrant a layer change or so, even up north.  Especially true if you stick around somewhere with night skiing.


Like I said, I don't have that problem on a normal day. Open/Close vents on my jackets pants is generally enough for your average daytime temp changes mid-winter. Hell sometimes there are 10-15+ degree differences between the base and summit temps so I think good layers should be able to deal with some degree of change.



deadheadskier said:


> Also I think you and Dr Jeff in this thread, maybe others who are in favor of parking lot boot ups have a different perspective because of your proximity to the mountain.



I don't think that impacts my preference. I did the same thing back when I day-tripped regularly from NJ to the Cats (~2 hour drive). Only major difference now is I put my ski pants on before leaving my condo vs putting those on at the car like I did years ago.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I don't have kids, but I was a kid. I didn't say boot up in the bus. I said at the bus (aka outside it just like everyone is doing at their cars right now). As a kid, I don't remember once having to go back and get anything after I started skiing. What exactly are people forgetting so often that this is an issue? If you're missing your gloves, helmet, goggles, etc, wouldn't you realize that immediately as you start walking away from the bus? Only one time did I forget something (left my gloves in the condo on a warm spring day).



Your childhood memories and experiences isn't the same as the experience of others.  I could list a myriad of things that I want in a bag, conveniently in the lodge when skiing with my five year old.  Extra mittens, spare goggles for when his get snow covered and fogged up from a wreck, extra socks, beverages and snacks. My kid like many is super finicky and the lodge often doesn't have the snacks he likes.  Nevermind the prices. 

Not having to trudge to the car in the cold for these things or at many places having to take a bus to the car is a royal pain in the ass with kids. 

Bring it all on back to the way it was Pre-Covid.  It worked fine. You just need to time your lodge visits to off peak times.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2021)

Time limits in lodges sound like a good idea.
Hopefully I don’t get arrested for having my necked ass in the parking lot. Hate wearing my ski underwear on a long ride but do sometimes when people are within site. Same with biking.


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## Zand (Mar 13, 2021)

I don't understand the point of being so gung ho for permanent changes. If you want to boot up at your car every single time or carry 10 pounds of shit in a pack all day, no one is stopping you. Why speak out against the freedoms of others?


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Your childhood memories and experiences isn't the same as the experience of others.  I could list a myriad of things that I want in a bag, conveniently in the lodge when skiing with my five year old.  Extra mittens, spare goggles for when his get snow covered and fogged up from a wreck, extra socks, beverages and snacks. My kid like many is super finicky and the lodge often doesn't have the snacks he likes.  Nevermind the prices.
> 
> Not having to trudge to the car in the cold for these things or at many places having to take a bus to the car is a royal pain in the ass with kids.
> 
> Bring it all on back to the way it was Pre-Covid.  It worked fine. You just need to time your lodge visits to off peak times.


Rarely had to go back to the lodge with my kids to get anything. Have carried extra neck warmers/balaclavas though.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2021)

Zand said:


> I don't understand the point of being so gung ho for permanent changes. If you want to boot up at your car every single time or carry 10 pounds of shit in a pack all day, no one is stopping you. Why speak out against the freedoms of others?


Out west booting up at the car is the norm as lodge space is minimal.


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## Zand (Mar 13, 2021)

Good for the west.

Let me know the next time the wind chill is -50 in Colorado like it often is at Jay.


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

I also want to add here - I have been complaining about prices a good bit and I want to clarify - although it often is not cheap, lift ticket prices I do not find unreasonable most of the time.  You can easily spend just as much or more money on other hobbies or leisure activities like even going out to eat.  What I have a problem with is for example Vail coming in to places like Roundtop and trying to turn these feeder hills into, well Vail - they have said things along the lines of:
-"our customers seem to enjoy the Vail Experience™ of smaller size group lessons this year so we think we will avoid large lesson groups going forward"
-"we want to provide the best Vail Experience™ possible so we will be upgrading dining options to natural/wholesome [expensive] food choices"
-"we will be eliminating 4 hour tickets this year 'due to COVID' and our customers do not seem to mind because last year most people did not buy the 4 hour pass which we priced $3 less than the all day pass, and more time to ski is a better Experience™ anyway"
-"customers seem to enjoy booting up at their cars because they have no other option, therefore we will consider taking away the cubbies and continuing the ban on bags from the lodge going forward, and the risk of having your things stolen does not provide a good Experience™"

I will pay what it takes to ski but it is real hard to introduce new people to the sport when you have to either convince them to to cough up the money to pay for the whole Experience™ at the local hill or go on a long car ride to some place that doesn't have delusions that they are like an exclusive rocky mountain resort


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## skiur (Mar 13, 2021)

I boot up in my living room and drive to the mountain but it's only a 5 minute drive.  When I used to daytrip I liked having the lodge to boot up.  If your within 15-20 min of the mountain, who needs a lodge.  But if I had to drive further than that it's nice to boot up in the lodge.


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## abc (Mar 13, 2021)

It's pretty simple. Some people like the lodge. That's why lodges are build! If everyone dislike lodges, there wouldn't be many. 

People who don't use lodges, does the existence of base lodge gets in your way?


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

When the hill is only 500 feet tall and you don't have a Grand Summit Hotel/Condo to go back to, the space and vibes of the lodge are pretty important


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## cdskier (Mar 13, 2021)

Zand said:


> I don't understand the point of being so gung ho for permanent changes. If you want to boot up at your car every single time or carry 10 pounds of shit in a pack all day, no one is stopping you. Why speak out against the freedoms of others?


To be clear, I'm not advocating for any changes one way or the other on the lodge topic going forward. I'm just saying I don't understand why the lack of a lodge was such a big deal for many people. Some people treated this as the end of the world (not necessarily anyone in this thread, but just comments I remember people making in general when the limits on lodges were first being announced for this year...).


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Rarely had to go back to the lodge with my kids to get anything. Have carried extra neck warmers/balaclavas though.



Great

  How you experienced it and enjoyed it with your kids isn't how others prefer to. 

You do you.  You prefer booting up in the gravel, go for it.  

Others prefer the lodge.  

Choices are nice


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## jimk (Mar 13, 2021)

A-Basin has a pretty distinctive action going on since they left the Epic pass a couple of years ago.  They seem to be wanting to rebrand or return to their long ago brand as a local's place with smaller crowds and higher quality ski experience.  They've been willing to experiment with smaller revenue to find the balance of just the right number of customers on their slopes to have both profitability and quality.

Snowbird is using a parking reservation system this year, which I don't like but have learned to cope with.  To me it hampers your spontaneity.  If you are local, you can't just go up tomorrow if you get the urge to ski because reservations may already be fully booked.  If you are a vacationer, you can't just decide to go next month if the weekend you were thinking of visiting has no parking reservations available.  The reality is that you probably can find a way to park at the resort because many days (but not all) they allow unreserved parking on the access road, but without that reservation then a parking space is not quite guaranteed.  Before this year and the reservation system went into effect you could pretty much always find a space to squeeze in if they let you into the canyon, even if you had to wait until 130PM.

Having said this about Snowbird parking, I have heard the theory that this year's free reservation system is a good practice session for implementation in future years of paid parking at Snowbird.  I like free parking, but recognize a place like LCC might not always be able to handle it and that paid parking is one way to throttle the number of cars going up the canyon on any given day.  Also, if you get really good at the reservation game, which I admit I'm not, you can get reservations almost anytime you want if you religiously follow the app and such.


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

I feel like I have been at bit negative in this thread so I do want to say, it is great to see so many people skiing this year, including at local and independent hills which may have had it rough for a while.  I am happy the guys at my local ski and bike shop made some money this year.  And it is also cool to see more people taking interest in cross country skiing.  Also skiing was all things considered fairly normal relative to other weird stuff going on right now.

And thank God we were able to have the lifts spin this whole season, unlike the Europeans and the Canucks


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## jimk (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I feel like I have been at bit negative in this thread so I do want to say, it is great to see so many people skiing this year, including at local and independent hills which may have had it rough for a while.  I am happy the guys at my local ski and bike shop made some money this year.  And it is also cool to see more people taking interest in cross country skiing.  Also skiing was all things considered fairly normal relative to other weird stuff going on right now.
> 
> And thank God we were able to have the lifts spin this whole season, unlike the Europeans and the Canucks


Yes, we've been lucky there was no big outbreak at a ski area this winter that might have triggered an industry-wide shutdown.  I just took my wife for her second vax shot today.  It;s a very positive thing physically AND psychologically.  It seems like we've turned the corner on covid!


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## ss20 (Mar 13, 2021)

+1 on can't wait to boot up inside a lodge again.  At the car sucks most days in the NE and I have a system dialed in with mats, chairs...even made a small clothes line in the back of my car for hanging up the face mask/gloves during lunch...still sucks.  I also think the time saved by booting up at the car is moot when you have to huff back to it for lunch, when in a normal year you could pop off your skis and be at a table enjoying food in 30 seconds in a base lodge.  Not a big deal for places where parking is close, but at a place like Sugarbush or Jiminy Peak it sucks a ton.  Also your boots will thank you not going to/from the car on asphalt/concrete.  

Also +1 on raising season pass prices.  I'd be happy to pay $1000-$1500 for an Ikon pass because the on-hill experience would be soooo much better if you eliminated the 20...30...maybe 40% of the pass base that wouldn't pay those prices.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 13, 2021)

There is a lot of LOL comments in here...

Have the bus people use the bus as a lodge might be one of the most clueless things I've ever heard.  Most of the time the bus unloads near the lodge and often times leaves or goes to a remote parking area to stay out of the way.

I dont think limiting time in the lodge is a good thing.  However, there should be some enforcement of people saving entire 8 person tables all day... 

I often boot at the car  but it's also nice to boot up in the lodge when I'm up north.


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## PAabe (Mar 13, 2021)

One thing I really want to do sometime is take the Denver-Winter Park ski train - people apparently boot up when it gets to the 6 mile tunnel under the continental divide and when it comes out you are right at the bottom of the lifts!  Plenty of room to boot up on a train.  They hand you the skis out of the baggage car and you are ready to go!  No slippery roads, no traffic, no worrying about being tired on the drive back, you can get up and walk around to the snack bar and bathroom, and you have one of those big fat Amtrak seats to chill in.

I would love it if there were more opportunities to take the bus/train to the ski hill, however, public transport not doing so hot rn due to corona


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> One thing I really want to do sometime is take the Denver-Winter Park ski train - people apparently boot up when it gets to the 6 mile tunnel under the continental divide and when it comes out you are right at the bottom of the lifts!  Plenty of room to boot up on a train.  They hand you the skis out of the baggage car and you are ready to go!  No slippery roads, no traffic, no worrying about being tired on the drive back, you can get up and walk around to the snack bar and bathroom, and you have one of those big fat Amtrak seats to chill in.
> 
> I would love it if there were more opportunities to take the bus/train to the ski hill, however, public transport not doing so hot rn due to corona




My cousin lives in Tokyo.  Most residents of the city go skiing via bullet train. Pretty cool


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2021)

the winter park ski train is not very practical - it doesn't run very often and is pretty expensive, and if you are there for more than a day trip and aren't staying at the base of winter park, you are then dependent on the local bus system.

i am all for capacity regulation staying in place at most places, and the base lodges can all burn to the ground. i'd love to permanently not have to join other parties on lifts too, but that one is prob least likely to stay in place.


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## abc (Mar 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you are there for more than a day trip and aren't staying at the base of winter park, you are then dependent on the local bus system.


Which is actually quite convenient.

But I agree the ski train seems way too expensive.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Which is actually quite convenient.
> 
> But I agree the ski train seems way too expensive.



i know i should embrace public transit, but in my experience in ski towns, waiting for the bus totally sucks. the ideal situation is a small walkable urban street grid a la aspen, breckenridge, etc. absent that, i'll stick with my personal vehicle. 'murica.


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## rebel1916 (Mar 14, 2021)

Next year, I look forward to booting up in the lodge, leaving my bag in a cubby and lifties keeping the line moving by vigorously jamming as many people onto lifts as possible.


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## abc (Mar 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the ideal situation is a small walkable urban street grid a la aspen, breckenridge, etc. absent that, i'll stick with my personal vehicle. 'murica.


Aspen isn't that "small". It can be a very  long walk from some of the lodgings. 



KustyTheKlown said:


> but in my experience in ski towns, waiting for the bus totally sucks.


I'm most familiar with bus in Summit county Colorado. The buses there seems to fun quite close to schedule most of the times. I only go out to the bus stop a few minutes before they're due to show up. So the wait is usually short. Also, I forgot where, I remember one of the bus system have a real time "where's my bus" app so I can see if the bus I'm waiting on is on time or late. I then plan accordingly and avoid standing out in the cold for ages.


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## JimG. (Mar 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I don't have kids, but I was a kid. I didn't say boot up in the bus. I said at the bus (aka outside it just like everyone is doing at their cars right now). As a kid, I don't remember once having to go back and get anything after I started skiing. What exactly are people forgetting so often that this is an issue? If you're missing your gloves, helmet, goggles, etc, wouldn't you realize that immediately as you start walking away from the bus? Only one time did I forget something (left my gloves in the condo on a warm spring day).


Well, as a parent I would not want to see my child booting up in a parking lot along with 50 other kids early in the morning while other skiers were racing through the parking lot looking for a parking spot.  That's just asking for a liability lawsuit involving many parties.

Just my opinion I have no desire to argue this point with anyone.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> +1 on can't wait to boot up inside a lodge again.  At the car sucks most days in the NE and I have a system dialed in with mats, chairs...even made a small clothes line in the back of my car for hanging up the face mask/gloves during lunch...still sucks.  I also think the time saved by booting up at the car is moot when you have to huff back to it for lunch, when in a normal year you could pop off your skis and be at a table enjoying food in 30 seconds in a base lodge.  Not a big deal for places where parking is close, but at a place like Sugarbush or Jiminy Peak it sucks a ton.  Also your boots will thank you not going to/from the car on asphalt/concrete.
> 
> Also +1 on raising season pass prices.  I'd be happy to pay $1000-$1500 for an Ikon pass because the on-hill experience would be soooo much better if you eliminated the 20...30...maybe 40% of the pass base that wouldn't pay those prices.


Agree on raising megapass prices...way too cheap.

I'd even be OK with a small increase on true season passes at single mountains. Maybe $100 or so.


----------



## kancamagus (Mar 14, 2021)

IMHO, the "best" way of handling crowded base lodges in a post-COVID return to normal era is to put more emphasis on expanding mid-mountain and/or summit lodges.

At least then the higher elevation lodges are solely limited to folks with a lift ticket / pass, who likely have a lot more of a motivation to get back out onto the slopes after they've warmed up or refreshed themselves with [overpriced] concessions and libations.

An alternate proposal would be to implement a 45 minute time policy in the cafeteria section of base lodges, but build a separate "hotel lobby" section with chairs, couches, plenty of wall outlets, etc with no time limit. The non skiers would then just want to hang out in the more comfy seats, leaving the cafeteria tables open to skiers/riders looking for a relatively quick snack / meal / warm up break. Bonus points if the "non skier hotel lobby" is on something like the third floor to ensure the folks in ski boots don't need to trundle up to it.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There is a lot of LOL comments in here...
> 
> Have the bus people use the bus as a lodge might be one of the most clueless things I've ever heard.  Most of the time the bus unloads near the lodge and often times leaves or goes to a remote parking area to stay out of the way.



It is also rather funny how people take something way out of context and infer things that were never said. I never said to use the bus as a lodge. Re-read my first comment on the topic. I said the person I was replying to may have a valid point that bus groups have more of a need for a lodge than anyone else. Then I went on to say it also wouldn't be impossible for them to boot up at the bus (if lodges weren't an option). "Not impossible" does not mean I was advocating for it. Let's use another example of "not impossible" to illustrate this point. We had a thaw/freeze situation in the northeast this weekend. At Sugarbush even though we had a thaw on Friday and re-freeze Friday night, patrol had all 111 trails open for skiing Saturday morning. That means they didn't believe any trails were not impossible to be skied. That doesn't mean they were encouraging or recommending everyone go take a run down Rumble or Lift-Line or any other ungroomed trail when the lifts opened...




JimG. said:


> Well, as a parent I would not want to see my child booting up in a parking lot along with 50 other kids early in the morning while other skiers were racing through the parking lot looking for a parking spot.  That's just asking for a liability lawsuit involving many parties.
> 
> Just my opinion I have no desire to argue this point with anyone.



From my experience, bus unload areas are usually separate from where people are actively parking. Plus people at the areas I'm most familiar with are generally pretty civilized with parking (particularly in the morning when you're directed by staff where to park...later in the day when people are all trying to find spots from people that left early might be a different story).

Out of curiosity, anyone know what bus groups did this year? Sure there may have been less of them, but don't anyone tell me there were none at all, because I've seen buses parked in the lots. I doubt the bus drivers were just out for a joy ride visiting a ski area parking lot.


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## JimG. (Mar 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Out of curiosity, anyone know what bus groups did this year? Sure there may have been less of them, but don't anyone tell me there were none at all, because I've seen buses parked in the lots. I doubt the bus drivers were just out for a joy ride visiting a ski area parking lot.


The high schools in my area did not offer ski trips this season citing liability issues. At the ski areas I visited I did not see any buses this season.

Not saying there were no bus trips, just that there were none on the days I went skiing.


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## PAabe (Mar 14, 2021)

Just speaking from my experience taking the ski bus in high school - 

At Blue all the buses load and unload right in front of the main lodge and then go away to the back of the parking lot.  We were not supposed to wear ski boots on the bus and were not able to get stuff from the bus after we unloaded.

We went to Stowe once and the buses were all parked in a lot by the double - we unloaded and loaded there.

I know the teacher who runs ski club, they had it this year but ski club it has always technically been through parks and rec rather than the school for liability reasons despite picking up right from the school parking lot.

Blue didn't want people leaving gear in the lodge this year so I have no clue what they did about that


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## ctdubl07 (Mar 14, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> Next year, I look forward to booting up in the lodge, leaving my bag in a cubby and lifties keeping the line moving by vigorously jamming as many people onto lifts as possible.


Ha! Love that last part. I'm lucky enough to be one who doesn't need the lodge due to proximity.....I go over to grab lunch with my kids occasionally between sessions or over to Main area for apre. One idea I noted above that I would like for MS to evolve towards is no unattended bags on "floor". Initiating a mandatory bag storage (free) is a huge benefit to the while lodge community. Have at it for boot up, lunch then breakdown but in between, keep the floors open for better traffic and tables for equity. Yes, it would require some investment in storage space and a cultural shift that might take a bit but long term, it pays off and next season is the perfect time to begin the conversion.
I experienced this at Stratton over last few years of kids comps...the floor is patrolled for bags by ambassadors and the storage area can be busy at high times but I think it makes for a positive experience in the end.


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## amf (Mar 14, 2021)

As someone who has bad knees, I find it physically difficult to walk any distance in ski boots. The different way my knee articulates when walking kills me.  If I could boot up at the car and walk 50' to a ski trail I'd be fine, but that rarely happens. Having to boot up at the car, which would be parked who-knows-where, was actually what made me decide to pass on downhill skiing this season.  As a result I got in 30 days of backcountry skiing!


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## raisingarizona (Mar 14, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Clearly you don't have kids. Consider how that might "work out" with a bus on a high school bus trip. I assure you the bus driver isn't going to sit there and open and close the door all day to accommodate forgetful teenagers. And how will anyone be able to boot up in a crowded bus?


Let em learn the hard way. Get what you need at the start of the day. People are way too accommodating to kids these days, they need more tough lessons to get their heads out of their you know what’s.

I’m ok with booting up in the lodge as long as there’s a proper place to store your gear. On or under a table for paying customers is not the place. All day campers shouldn’t be ok either. Imagine if you had a restaurant, would you let paying customers stand to eat their food because a few people are camping out all day? I sure wouldn’t.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 14, 2021)

amf said:


> As someone who has bad knees, I find it physically difficult to walk any distance in ski boots. The different way my knee articulates when walking kills me.  If I could boot up at the car and walk 50' to a ski trail I'd be fine, but that rarely happens. Having to boot up at the car, which would be parked who-knows-where, was actually what made me decide to pass on downhill skiing this season.  As a result I got in 30 days of backcountry skiing!


If it’s that hard to walk a few hundred feet in your boots then you probably shouldn’t still be skiing.


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## JimG. (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Let em learn the hard way.


Oh, I don't have any issues with that; I'm not talking about my kids either.

But who wants the administrative and possible liability hassles from parents who don't think that way? Because their kid got cold and couldn't get something warmer to wear? I don't blame my area schools for bagging ski trips this season. And I would guess ski areas would not want to lose that business because they won't let kids in the lodge. 

Let's face it, people are going to be going into lodges eventually, certainly by next season.


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## rebel1916 (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> If it’s that hard to walk a few hundred feet in your boots then you probably shouldn’t still be skiing.


Well that's a shitty take.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Let em learn the hard way. Get what you need at the start of the day. People are way too accommodating to kids these days, they need more tough lessons to get their heads out of their you know what’s.




It's skiing.  Not hockey practice, not football practice or whatever.

You want them to walk uphill five miles both ways to and from school in a snowstorm as well?

The tough guy bravado out of some of you surrounding this topic is pretty amusing.  And always with the my generation was so much more core adage as well.

Do you wipe your ass with newspaper and make your kids do the same?

I'll say it again, you guys do you. 

Others have different priorities and preferences. After working 60-70 hours a week in a high stress environment, I want the easiest, most relaxing time possible when I get to hang with my kids on the weekend.   Fidgeting with ski boots and hovering over gravel with frigid fingers ain't that.  I'll for certain do it as is necessary, which was the case this season.  But it sure as shit ain't my preference.


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## urungus (Mar 14, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I would love it if there were more opportunities to take the bus/train to the ski hill, however, public transport not doing so hot rn due to corona



It seems that Amtrak’s 2 trains that normally go to Vermont (Ethan Allen Express & Vermonter) are currently not running all the way north due to Covid.  I would love to take the Vermonter, but it only runs once per day, and the schedule (arrives in VT in the evening, heads back south in the AM) means you need to pay for 2 extra nights of lodging.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 14, 2021)

urungus said:


> It seems that Amtrak’s 2 trains that normally go to Vermont (Ethan Allen Express & Vermonter) are currently not running all the way north due to Covid.  I would love to take the Vermonter, but it only runs once per day, and the schedule (arrives in VT in the evening, heads back south in the AM) means you need to pay for 2 extra nights of lodging.


Looks like in a normal year going to Killington by train would be pretty feasible if you have lodging lined up.  I think for a few years ago Gore had a train - there is a (unused?) train station in North Creek.  It would not be a terrible waste of money if you were going solo but not if you would otherwise be able to carpool.


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## 2Planker (Mar 14, 2021)

Les bought a train for SR in the mid 90's. Went from near Portland up to Bethel then you had to take a shuttle to the Mt from "Bethel Station". I think it only ran for 3-4 years


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## machski (Mar 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Les bought a train for SR in the mid 90's. Went from near Portland up to Bethel then you had to take a shuttle to the Mt from "Bethel Station". I think it only ran for 3-4 years


Yup, the "Silver Bullet" sponsored by Coors Light as I recall.  They thought they'd sell a lot of those onboard, but within a year or so it was mostly kids headed up for the day, not the adult beverage set.  That was also pre Amtrak's Downeaster from Boston.  Wonder if that would change the paradigm for the silver bullet concept now??


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## mikec142 (Mar 14, 2021)

I'm not sure what will be permanent and what will be temporary.  I certainly think a lot of the stuff is personal preference.  For me, I've always booted up at the car.  For a day trip to Windham/Hunter which is 2.5 hours from me.  I will wear most of my ski gear including my pants on the ride up.  Boot up and finish gearing up at the car and then change in the parking lot/car to something more comfortable (sweats or jeans) for the ride home.  When skiing in VT, I do virtually the same except I'll keep the ski gear on and change back at the hotel/house.  When leaving VT, I'm changing in the lot for the ride home.  For the most part, if I can't carry it in my pockets...I don't need it.


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## Zand (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m ok with booting up in the lodge as long as there’s a proper place to store your gear. On or under a table for paying customers is not the place. All day campers shouldn’t be ok either. Imagine if you had a restaurant, would you let paying customers stand to eat their food because a few people are camping out all day? I sure wouldn’t.


It's not a restaurant, it's a ski lodge. And for the record, in 22 years of skiing including being at places like Wachusett, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc on holidays, I have never once had to stand to eat food so cut the bullshit.

The sense of entitlement and selfishness in this thread is fucking mind boggling.


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## Zand (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> If it’s that hard to walk a few hundred feet in your boots then you probably shouldn’t still be skiing.


If it's that hard to not be an asshole then you probably shouldn't still be posting. But here you are.

I can't believe someone actually thought it would be a good idea to write that AND click the submit button.


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## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2021)

Zand said:


> It's not a restaurant, it's a ski lodge. And for the record, in 22 years of skiing including being at places like Wachusett, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc on holidays, I have never once had to stand to eat food so cut the bullshit.
> 
> The sense of entitlement and selfishness in this thread is fucking mind boggling.


I agree but who is the selfish one who thinks they can camp out at a table all day?


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## amf (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> If it’s that hard to walk a few hundred feet in your boots then you probably shouldn’t still be skiing.


Easy for you to say. I've had to give up caving, rock 'n ice climbing, and backpacking because of my knees. I'll be dammed if I'm gonna give up skiing. As long as I can glide I'm good.


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## 180 (Mar 14, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Looks like in a normal year going to Killington by train would be pretty feasible if you have lodging lined up.  I think for a few years ago Gore had a train - there is a (unused?) train station in North Creek.  It would not be a terrible waste of money if you were going solo but not if you would otherwise be able to carpool.


Be careful on the Vermonter, from Albany to Rutland it runs on freight tracks and goes about 10MPH.


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## Zand (Mar 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I agree but who is the selfish one who thinks they can camp out at a table all day?


When has this ever been a problem in a ski lodge? The real issue is when one group throws all their stuff all over the table and one person sits there and holds the table hostage all day so that the group can come back and use it for 30 minutes at lunch.

One or two non skiers sitting at a table all day, but not holding the rest of the table hostage, have never created any problems in a lodge. If a blanket policy is out in place with a time limit for everyone, what is a non skier supposed to do...sit in the car?


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## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2021)

Zand said:


> When has this ever been a problem in a ski lodge? The real issue is when one group throws all their stuff all over the table and one person sits there and holds the table hostage all day so that the group can come back and use it for 30 minutes at lunch.
> 
> One or two non skiers sitting at a table all day, but not holding the rest of the table hostage, have never created any problems in a lodge. If a blanket policy is out in place with a time limit for everyone, what is a non skier supposed to do...sit in the car?


A lot of places have smaller tables that sit like 6. If 1 person is sitting at it how many people will ask if their family of 4 can sit there. I have asked people before to sit at their tables but have been told “oh my family is coming in soon. Then found another place to sit and finished eating and those people were still sitting alone.


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## puckoach (Mar 14, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> If it’s that hard to walk a few hundred feet in your boots then you probably shouldn’t still be skiing.


While ailments of others are none of your business, rather than be critical, you should thank your "higher authority" you are not afflicted with health issues.


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## abc (Mar 14, 2021)

Zand said:


> If it's that hard to not be an asshole then you probably shouldn't still be posting. But here you are.
> 
> I can't believe someone actually thought it would be a good idea to write that AND click the submit button.


Sadly, the asshole has quite a few companies. Apparently, not only did he think it's a good idea, others agree, and "like" it.

If anyone wonder why the tone of this forum is so often hostile, it's because we have quite a few hostile people posting here.


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## rebel1916 (Mar 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Sadly, the asshole has quite a few companies. Apparently, not only did he think it's a good idea, others agree, and "like" it.
> 
> If anyone wonder why the tone of this forum is so often hostile, it's because we have quite a few hostile people posting here.


I'm a pretty hostile motherfucker, but as long as you can hobble to the lift, I'll scoot over and make room for you.


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## ceo (Mar 15, 2021)

Different people have different needs, but I find booting up at the car to be a huge pain in the neck. The solution to the problem of everyone's backpacks and boot bags cluttering up the lodge is to provide a dedicated boot-up and gear storage room, like the Gate House lodge at Sugarbush. It's an insanely good idea that should be the standard everywhere.


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## RichT (Mar 15, 2021)

I read this whole thread and not once did anyone bring up the obvious fact that this year there was no access to a BAR! Isn't that the main reason for the lodge? (women and booze?)  That's what I'm talking bout!


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## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2021)

RichT said:


> I read this whole thread and not once did anyone bring up the obvious fact that this year there was no access to a BAR! Isn't that the main reason for the lodge? (women and booze?)  That's what I'm talking bout!


Every ski area I have been to the bar/restaurant has been open. Some you may need reservations for but they have been open.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 15, 2021)

RichT said:


> I read this whole thread and not once did anyone bring up the obvious fact that this year there was no access to a BAR! Isn't that the main reason for the lodge? (women and booze?)  That's what I'm talking bout!


I always had access to a bar, but since you had to buy food to get a drink, a 3 or 4 dollar beer turned into a 20 dollar meal so I chose not to partake in that


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## Edd (Mar 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Every ski area I have been to the bar/restaurant has been open. Some you may need reservations for but they have been open.


Not in VT, methinks.


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## cdskier (Mar 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not in VT, methinks.



Can't speak for all of VT, but the bars/restaurants on-mountain at Sugarbush are certainly open. Yes reservations are required in many cases, but they're open.


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## Edd (Mar 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Can't speak for all of VT, but the bars/restaurants on-mountain at Sugarbush are certainly open. Yes reservations are required in many cases, but they're open.


Okemo had them closed midwinter this season, so maybe it’s a Vail thing?


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## rebel1916 (Mar 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not in VT, methinks.


Walked into bars at Bolton and Jay.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 15, 2021)

bar was open at Vail owned Roundtop.  Reservations required and per PA current COVID rules no actual Bar seating


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## Glenn (Mar 15, 2021)

Zand said:


> Count me out on both of those.
> 
> If anything, the lodges need more cubbies/lockers/storage space. Some mountains have a ton, but too many have none. They should enforce no bags on/under tables. There are some days when booting up in the lodge is infinitely better than at the car.
> 
> ...


Agreed. More space to store stuff or better bag checks.


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## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Can't speak for all of VT, but the bars/restaurants on-mountain at Sugarbush are certainly open. Yes reservations are required in many cases, but they're open.


Magic as well


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## xlr8r (Mar 15, 2021)

I agree with those saying storing bags under tables should be banned.  Lodges should have cubbies for all bag storage.  Also the part of the problem with table hoarding, is the layout and the size of the tables.  Far too many lodges have tables placed way to close to one another, making it difficult for people to move around and have enough space to boot up.  Also far too many lodges tend to have tables sized for about 6-8 people, but most ski gourps are 2-4 people..  It would be better to have more small tables for the non skiers to sit at and for small groups.  

In general most lodges in NE are just overcrowded, and resorts in the past have had little incentive to do anything about it.


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## ss20 (Mar 15, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> In general most lodges in NE are just overcrowded, and resorts in the past have had little incentive to do anything about it.



I agree with the first bit about lodges being overcrowded...can't say I agree with the second part.  Off the top of my head I can name tons of mountains that have expanded and/or added the number of base lodges in the past dozen or so years... Mohawk expanded, Okemo Jackson Gore, Catamount totally rebuilt one and added another, Killington is working on replacing the K1 lodge.  

I think lot of resorts are seeing that F/B can be a huuuuge profit center (higher than it already was) and people will pay stupid prices for it, a-la Vail Resorts.  Put in some granite countertops, make the staff wear classic chef hats, put the grill in front so people can see the food being made, and boom...that $8 burger that was $6 in profit is now a $12 burger with $10 in profit.  Classic example being the Killington Peak Lodge.  

Also there's the fact that a craptop of these base lodges are out-of-code, inefficient in layout, hodge-podged structures that have been added on several times since their original construction in the 60s, and are literally falling apart.  There's gonna be a lot of replacements in the next dozen years.


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## 1dog (Mar 15, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I agree with those saying storing bags under tables should be banned.  Lodges should have cubbies for all bag storage.  Also the part of the problem with table hoarding, is the layout and the size of the tables.  Far too many lodges have tables placed way to close to one another, making it difficult for people to move around and have enough space to boot up.  Also far too many lodges tend to have tables sized for about 6-8 people, but most ski gourps are 2-4 people..  It would be better to have more small tables for the non skiers to sit at and for small groups.
> 
> In general most lodges in NE are just overcrowded, and resorts in the past have had little incentive to do anything about it.


It all makes sense ( overcrowding solutions) until one realizes that it's 12-15 weekends a  year that the lodges are too crowded. The other 124 days they are empty or sufficient. 

Out west is different as they are destination resorts for people the world over. similar to airlines, ski areas are limited to weather, economy, and other things out of their control. Using them off-season for weddings or town meetings conferences or basically anything to offset the cost of maintaining/taxes/upkeep/etc. can mitigate the cost and justify the larger builds but otherwise, it's a 20  day year problem.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 15, 2021)

Zand said:


> If it's that hard to not be an asshole then you probably shouldn't still be posting. But here you are.
> 
> I can't believe someone actually thought it would be a good idea to write that AND click the submit button.


My point was that skiing is really hard on the knees. If it’s that hard to walk for a little bit across a parking lot because of knee problems then skiing isn’t very good for em. Toughen up snowflake.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 15, 2021)

amf said:


> Easy for you to say. I've had to give up caving, rock 'n ice climbing, and backpacking because of my knees. I'll be dammed if I'm gonna give up skiing. As long as I can glide I'm good.


Good for you then. F it! I already responded to someone’s reaction to my post and we all gotta do what we gotta do.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 15, 2021)

Zand said:


> It's not a restaurant, it's a ski lodge. And for the record, in 22 years of skiing including being at places like Wachusett, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc on holidays, I have never once had to stand to eat food so cut the bullshit.
> 
> The sense of entitlement and selfishness in this thread is fucking mind boggling.


Entitlement? I think the idea that it’s ok to camp all day long at a table with piles of gear on it would be a fantastic display of entitlement dip sh$t. I’ve definitely seen this as a problem where people trying to sit and eat for a half hour cannot find a table.


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## abc (Mar 15, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> My point was that skiing is really hard on the knees. If it’s that hard to walk for a little bit across a parking lot because of knee problems then skiing isn’t very good for em. Toughen up snowflake.


I don't know how you reach THAT conclusion!

First, skiing doesn't have to be tough on knees if you got the "right" technique. (yes, there was a time I thought knee pain and skiing are inseparable. But not any more. These days, I can ski steeps and bumps all day and, despite my knees being a decade older, they're happy to handle what I ask them of)

The opposite is true about walking in ski boots. Ski boots aren't designed for efficient walking. For example, there's no shock absorbing on the sole like regular shoes. That transmit a lot more of the impact of each step to the knees. Whilst on snow, the ski acts as shock absorber.

Further more, ski boots are usually tight fitting around the ankle, putting excessive force on the knee when walking on hard grounds, more than skiing itself.

So those "few hundred steps" from the far end of the parking lot can put significant stress on knees when compare to all day skiing with efficient technique. Why trash one's knees by walking when one can save them for skiing?


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## kbroderick (Mar 15, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't know how you reach THAT conclusion!
> 
> First, skiing doesn't have to be tough on knees if you got the "right" technique. (yes, there was a time I thought knee pain and skiing are inseparable. But not any more. These days, I can ski steeps and bumps all day and, despite my knees being a decade older, they're happy to handle what I ask them of)
> 
> ...


Lost track...I don't think you're the original poster with knee issues exacerbated by walking in ski boots, but...if that were my issue, I'd definitely be in an AT boot with a rockered sole and a good range of motion in walk mode. They don't ski as well as a race boot, but on anything short of race skis and a very firm surface, they'll work nearly as well (or as well), and they eliminate the excessive knee stress walking across the lot. They also tend to be on the lighter side of the spectrum.


----------



## abc (Mar 15, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Lost track...I don't think you're the original poster with knee issues exacerbated by walking in ski boots, but...if that were my issue, I'd definitely be in an AT boot with a rockered sole and a good range of motion in walk mode. They don't ski as well as a race boot, but on anything short of race skis and a very firm surface, they'll work nearly as well (or as well), and they eliminate the excessive knee stress walking across the lot. They also tend to be on the lighter side of the spectrum.


You're right. I'm not the original poster with knee issues. My knees are in pretty darn good shape. Still, I found walking in ski boots really annoying. That's not to mention it's not good for the boot itself. So I will avoid as much as I can.

If I expect a long walk, I put on a pair of CatTrax thingy. That's helps enormously with the shock absorbing part. But the few times I didn't have the CatTrac, my entire body feel the impact of each step!

Bottom line, ski boots are optimized for skiing! Walking is really something that should only be done sparingly. And for anyone who's already gone any knee issues to begin with, avoid at all cost.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 15, 2021)

I’ve been walking in ski boots for 35 years now and I’ve never noticed it as being weird or uncomfortable. I’ll tour all day in them doing fairly technical ridge line hikes with 3 and 4th class scrambling with no issues. 

maybe some of you folks need to get a better fitting boot?

maybe them office jobs have made your palms a bit too soft?


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## raisingarizona (Mar 15, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't know how you reach THAT conclusion!
> 
> First, skiing doesn't have to be tough on knees if you got the "right" technique. (yes, there was a time I thought knee pain and skiing are inseparable. But not any more. These days, I can ski steeps and bumps all day and, despite my knees being a decade older, they're happy to handle what I ask them of)
> 
> ...


BS. Skiing is still a high impact sport for knees and other joints. If a walk across a parking lot is too much for someone they should probably think about less impactful activities, or I would at least.


----------



## abc (Mar 15, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> ll tour all day in them doing fairly technical ridge line hikes with 3 and 4th class scrambling with no issues.


Sounds like you're in touring boots, not downhill boots. 

If so, you don't have the experience to talk about walking in downhill boots. 



raisingarizona said:


> Skiing is still a high impact sport for knees and other joints.


What "other" joints? Elbow?  

Perhaps you should try some boots that are more suited for skiing than walking?


----------



## Zermatt (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> BS. Skiing is still a high impact sport for knees and other joints. If a walk across a parking lot is too much for someone they should probably think about less impactful activities, or I would at least.


You're doing it wrong then.  Casually skiing a groomed run requires almost no added effort versus just standing in place and certainly no added impact to my knees.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’ve been walking in ski boots for 35 years now and I’ve never noticed it as being weird or uncomfortable. I’ll tour all day in them doing fairly technical ridge line hikes with 3 and 4th class scrambling with no issues.
> 
> maybe some of you folks need to get a better fitting boot?
> 
> maybe them office jobs have made your palms a bit too soft?




Woah

We got a real bad ass in our presence.

Everyone harden the F up and be more like skiing Ivan Drago here


----------



## ss20 (Mar 16, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> You're doing it wrong then.  Casually skiing a groomed run requires almost no added effort versus just standing in place and certainly no added impact to my knees.



Uhhhhhhh...what.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Arapahoe Basin says they're not gonna stop limiting capacity... https://unofficialnetworks.com/2021/03/12/abasin-season-pass-model/
> 
> 
> 
> There's certainly gonna be a lot of stuff that's changed forever.  COVID is more than likely the last nail in the coffin for the walk-up lift ticket at the major resorts.  10 years ago that would've been unfathomable.



While they call this a Covid thing it is not!  A Basin pulled out of the Epic Pass due to the growing number of people going there.  That was way before Covid.  We skied there on the Epic Pass and the lines were massive on Saturdays especially.  Many A Basin only passholders were very upset with all the Epic Pass skiers.  When they split off from Epic, we bought the A Basin Pass and the lines were manageable.  Even the opening day line was not going up High Noon as in years past.  Historically, he A Basin Pass is relatively cheap and when they split from Epic the A Basin only pass sales went up, although there was a steep bump this year so we shall see hoe that plays out.

We were there a little over a week ago and it was ski on ski off all the time.  In fact we already bought our A Basin passes for next year.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

PAabe said:


> One thing regarding bags, groups coming in buses don't really have the option to not gear up and leave all their stuff in the lodge.  Also places where you have to park far away, leaving your stuff in the car is a real pain especially if you have to go back to the car to get something.  And booting up in the lodge is far superior to booting up in a gravel parking lot imo



So when we moved to Colorado, the whole hauling boot bags into the lodge concept was thrown out the window.  90% of the skiers and snowboarders get ready at their cars.  Most Vail resorts do not allow bags all over the place.  And are more focused on having you eat at one of their restaurants.  I have m=noticed the same at Banff and in Tahoe resorts.

Carrying a boot bag, skis, and other stuff seems to be an East Coast thing.  Only place I have seen it on a larger scale,


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I have problems comprehending why booting up at the car is an issue or why you need to go back to the car to get something. I've been booting up at the car for 15+ years now probably so this wasn't a change at all for me this year. Maybe I'm just inherently not trusting of other people, but I have no desire to ever leave stuff in the lodge.
> 
> You might have a point on buses though. Although I don't see why it would be impossible to boot up at the bus and leave your stuff on the bus either.



Agree with the first paragraph, 

In Banff you boot up before getting on the bus!


----------



## Edd (Mar 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So when we moved to Colorado, the whole hauling boot bags into the lodge concept was thrown out the window.  90% of the skiers and snowboarders get ready at their cars.  Most Vail resorts do not allow bags all over the place.  And are more focused on having you eat at one of their restaurants.  I have m=noticed the same at Banff and in Tahoe resorts.
> 
> Carrying a boot bag, skis, and other stuff seems to be an East Coast thing.  Only place I have seen it on a larger scale,


Based on my western visits, the east has more unpleasant, wet, humid weather than the west. It’s dryer in the west and therefore less of a problem to boot up at the car, even when it’s cold. I dislike booting up at the car. But I say this as a midweek skier. Weekends in the lodge during normal times can suck badly.


----------



## abc (Mar 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> dblskifanatic said:
> 
> 
> > Carrying a boot bag, skis, and other stuff seems to be an East Coast thing. Only place I have seen it on a larger scale,
> ...


In many western mountains, you can't park by the lift. You have to take a bus. The pro's of a bus system is your walk from the car to the bus is typically short. So walking in ski boots isn't that big a deal. 

Granted booting up in the car is still a hassle. But that's offset by the hassle of juggling skis and boot bags on a crowded bus. When I ski in the west, I tend to boot up in the car more often. While in the east, I prefer to boot up in the lodge.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In many western mountains, you can't park by the lift. You have to take a bus. The pro's of a bus system is your walk from the car to the bus is typically short. So walking in ski boots isn't that big a deal.
> 
> Granted booting up in the car is still a hassle. But that's offset by the hassle of juggling skis and boot bags on a crowded bus. When I ski in the west, I tend to boot up in the car more often. While in the east, I prefer to boot up in the lodge.


East needs more parking garages.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> East needs more parking garages.



parking rarely ever seems to be a concern. you may park far, but you park.

what really needs parking garages are western places stuck in narrow canyons. alta, snowbird, brighton solitude. crystal in WA. would benefit bigly from an underground or aboveground multi level parking structure.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> parking rarely ever seems to be a concern. you may park far, but you park.
> 
> what really needs parking garages are western places stuck in narrow canyons. alta, snowbird, brighton solitude. crystal in WA. would benefit bigly from an underground or aboveground multi level parking structure.


I was just thinking about mud


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> parking rarely ever seems to be a concern. you may park far, but you park.
> 
> what really needs parking garages are western places stuck in narrow canyons. alta, snowbird, brighton solitude. crystal in WA. would benefit bigly from an underground or aboveground multi level parking structure.



We used to park in the parking garage at Vail.  Then hike through the village to get to a lift.  There was no other choice.  They had a few lockers outside but not a lot.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We used to park in the parking garage at Vail.  Then hike through the village to get to a lift.  There was no other choice.  They had a few lockers outside but not a lot.



ya, one of many reasons why vail and vail village sucks. its so common out west tho for there to be no semblance of a base lodge. or at least no giant space with pegs on the wall for bags like we are used to. kicking horse and revelstoke come to mind immediately and there are lots more. snowbird has facilities but it isn't really a lodge. i think there's a locker room on the first floor of that brutalist monstrosity of a structure. the fucked thing about vail tho is how far the parking and the buses are from the lifts. lots of ski boot walking there. but they couldn't possibly give you closer access - they want you to be forced to peruse the retail village and spend spend spend


----------



## drjeff (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm guessing that the topic of building a parking garage at some ski areas has come up in the thoughts of a few GM's, then the economic reality sets in that unless they can either tie it into some BIG base area real estate and retail development project or get some state/federal grant money for it, it then comes down to what would they rather spend millions on? A parking garage or say lift upgrades, snowmaking, etc


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I'm guessing that the topic of building a parking garage at some ski areas has come up in the thoughts of a few GM's, then the economic reality sets in that unless they can either tie it into some BIG base area real estate and retail development project or get some state/federal grant money for it, it then comes down to what would they rather spend millions on? A parking garage or say lift upgrades, snowmaking, etc



environmental/forest service concerns are a thing too i think. vaguely recall reading about big enviro/save our canyons opposition to alta/bird building a parking structure. @thetrailboss can probably speak to it. imo, a lot better for many reasons to consolidate cars into a structure than have them lining the canyon road for a mile. that being said, i don't really like using a garage where there is no NEED for it. whenever I've parked indoors at Stratton it just feels weird to me. more like going to the mall than skiing.


----------



## abc (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> environmental/forest service concerns are a thing too i think. vaguely recall reading about big enviro/save our canyons opposition to alta/bird building a parking structure. @thetrailboss can probably speak to it. imo, a lot better for many reasons to consolidate cars into a structure than have them lining the canyon road for a mile. that being said, i don't really like using a garage where there is no NEED for it. whenever I've parked indoors at Stratton it just feels weird to me. more like going to the mall than skiing.


Agree on both counts! (very odd to be agreeing with KTK  )

Somehow the west really didn't care for "parking structures". Local opposition are always guaranteed. People, including/especially the "environmentally conscious". think it's "too urban"! But somehow, cars parked along the road for miles are ok! How ironic. 

Parking in structures does feel odd to me too. No denying it.


----------



## jimk (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, one of many reasons why vail and vail village sucks. its so common out west tho for there to be no semblance of a base lodge. or at least no giant space with pegs on the wall for bags like we are used to. kicking horse and revelstoke come to mind immediately and there are lots more. snowbird has facilities but it isn't really a lodge. i think there's a locker room on the first floor of that brutalist monstrosity of a structure. the fucked thing about vail tho is how far the parking and the buses are from the lifts. lots of ski boot walking there. but they couldn't possibly give you closer access - they want you to be forced to peruse the retail village and spend spend spend


Click this link, find the picture of the Bearnaked Ladies concert, scroll to the paragraph directly below that picture for details on a fairly close, free parking and boot-up solution for day-visitors to Vail:








						Hitchhiker's Guide to the Vail Galaxy of Resorts: Part 1 of 3
					

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Vail Galaxy of Resorts: Part 1 of 3 December 30, 2019  By Jim Kenney PugSki Travel Correspondent  [Author's note:  this is an update of a three-part article originally written for PugSki.com two years ago.  In addition...




					www.skitalk.com


----------



## ss20 (Mar 16, 2021)

When its snowing I'd love to be in a parking garage.  End of the day just get in the car and go, no clearing off the car or worrying about getting stuck on deep days.  Always loved doing that at Jay, and sometimes Stratton if I got there early enough.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> When its snowing I'd love to be in a parking garage.  End of the day just get in the car and go, no clearing off the car or worrying about getting stuck on deep days.  Always loved doing that at Jay, and sometimes Stratton if I got there early enough.



i skied stratton the day of the huge December dump this year. i got there stupid early bc i gave myself so much time for the roads. like well over an hour before lifts. i got the spot right next to the stairs in the garage, but there is no cell service or even xm radio reception down there. boring hour. need to keep physical books in car apparently.


----------



## Keelhauled (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the fucked thing about vail tho is how far the parking and the buses are from the lifts. lots of ski boot walking there. but they couldn't possibly give you closer access - they want you to be forced to peruse the retail village and spend spend spend



It's not that far, in either Vail Village or Lionshead.  Sure, if you're the first car in the lot at an Eastern mountain you're closer, but get there a little later and you'll be taking a hike, half the time in mud and the other half the time uphill.  Sometimes both.  I'd rather walk through Vail villages than from the outer lots at Killington/Sugarbush/Bolton Valley/etc.


----------



## Killingtime (Mar 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> When its snowing I'd love to be in a parking garage.  End of the day just get in the car and go, no clearing off the car or worrying about getting stuck on deep days.  Always loved doing that at Jay, and sometimes Stratton if I got there early enough.


I happily paid $25 per day for an underground parking garage at Tremblant (I think it was the Westin's) because it was minus 24F and the thought of booting up outside was unbearable. Parking garage was actually a comfortable temperature and quick walk to the lifts.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Agree on both counts! (very odd to be agreeing with KTK  )
> 
> Somehow the west really didn't care for "parking structures". Local opposition are always guaranteed. People, including/especially the "environmentally conscious". think it's "too urban"! But somehow, cars parked along the road for miles are ok! How ironic.
> 
> Parking in structures does feel odd to me too. No denying it.



I agree about feeling weird.  Every time we skied Vail it so industrial.


----------



## abc (Mar 16, 2021)

Keelhauled said:


> I'd rather walk through Vail villages than from the outer lots at Killington/Sugarbush/Bolton Valley/etc.


I don't know about SB or Bolton Valley. But with K, you get to jump on a shuttle bus on the side of the road. Not walk half a mile through the village


----------



## cdskier (Mar 16, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't know about SB or Bolton Valley. But with K, you get to jump on a shuttle bus on the side of the road. Not walk half a mile through the village


SB has a Jitney shuttle on weekends/holidays going around the parking lots. Midweek I think you'd have to walk (although usually people are only parking in the closest lots mid-week anyway at SB so it isn't as much of an issue as on weekends when you could be parking further away).


----------



## Harvey (Mar 16, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Don't you ever need to add or remove layers as the conditions/temperature changes through the day?


I do.  These days I try to guess right, but I've been erring on the side of overdressing.

I carry a but bag that allows me to strip on layer and carry it. Usually that's my ultra light shell, that compresses to the size of a softball.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 16, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I do.  These days I try to guess right, but I've been erring on the side of overdressing.
> 
> I carry a but bag that allows me to strip on layer and carry it. Usually that's my ultra light shell, that compresses to the size of a softball.



Same here!  If it too hot, I do not mind heading to the car.  Our first day at A Basin I over dressed.  Around lunch I took off layers and went into the lodge for a bear and lunch.  They was comfortable for the afternoon,


----------



## Keelhauled (Mar 16, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't know about SB or Bolton Valley. But with K, you get to jump on a shuttle bus on the side of the road. Not walk half a mile through the village



From Vail's transportation center to the bottom of Gondi One is basically 1,000' on Google Earth, which I must concede is a little longer than I remember.  On the other hand, it's about 650' from the Lionshead garage to 8/19, and the shuttle stop at Golden Peak is adjacent to chair 6.  It's not a half mile walk, and it's all on concrete.  Gravel eastern parking lots are a slog in comparison.  I'd rather walk through Vail village than from the middle of K1's parking lot up and around the base of the gondola.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> When its snowing I'd love to be in a parking garage.  End of the day just get in the car and go, no clearing off the car or worrying about getting stuck on deep days.  Always loved doing that at Jay, and sometimes Stratton if I got there early enough.


how long has the Jay one been there? Never parked in it. Have parked on top of it and this year right outside it. I used to always park state side.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Same here!  If it too hot, I do not mind heading to the car.  Our first day at A Basin I over dressed.  Around lunch I took off layers and went into the lodge for a bear and lunch.  They was comfortable for the afternoon,


was it this bear?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> environmental/forest service concerns are a thing too i think. vaguely recall reading about big enviro/save our canyons opposition to alta/bird building a parking structure. @thetrailboss can probably speak to it. imo, a lot better for many reasons to consolidate cars into a structure than have them lining the canyon road for a mile. that being said, i don't really like using a garage where there is no NEED for it. whenever I've parked indoors at Stratton it just feels weird to me. more like going to the mall than skiing.


Save Our Canyons is opposed to pretty much ANYTHING being built.  Period.  They are opposed to the LCC upgrades (or gondola proposal).  I used to think that their position was completely unreasonable but based upon Alta/Snowbird being hogs with IKON I now understand why they take that position. 

There was an article in the SL Trib yesterday as to Alta's recent "hissy fit" over parking.  To those that don't know, Alta's long-time manager retired in 2018 and the CFO/Accountant took over.  They literally blamed local homeowners and BC skiers for hurting Alta's finances because "up to 200" of Alta's parking lots are "probably" used by the homeowners or BC skiers.  So Mr. Accountant GM must have calculated how much he thinks he is losing everyday when, in reality, their revenue is probably lower due to sucking the IKON teat instead of selling their own day tickets.  The article, mysteriously, made absolutely NO mention of IKON. 

 I think it is pretty disgusting that the "Once Locals Only Alta" has sold out so hard that they are now fighting with the town, their loyal following, and their own neighbors on this issue.  I nominate them for SAM'S  worst PR move of the year.


----------



## NYDB (Mar 16, 2021)

Omg....this guy and his IKON hate boner.


----------



## 1dog (Mar 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Save Our Canyons is opposed to pretty much ANYTHING being built.  Period.  They are opposed to the LCC upgrades (or gondola proposal).  I used to think that their position was completely unreasonable but based upon Alta/Snowbird being hogs with IKON I now understand why they take that position.
> 
> There was an article in the SL Trib yesterday as to Alta's recent "hissy fit" over parking.  To those that don't know, Alta's long-time manager retired in 2018 and the CFO/Accountant took over.  They literally blamed local homeowners and BC skiers for hurting Alta's finances because "up to 200" of Alta's parking lots are "probably" used by the homeowners or BC skiers.  So Mr. Accountant GM must have calculated how much he thinks he is losing everyday when, in reality, their revenue is probably lower due to sucking the IKON teat instead of selling their own day tickets.  The article, mysteriously, made absolutely NO mention of IKON.
> 
> I think it is pretty disgusting that the "Once Locals Only Alta" has sold out so hard that they are now fighting with the town, their loyal following, and their own neighbors on this issue.  I nominate them for SAM'S  worst PR move of the year.


Well, we won't see MRG ever sell out- as long as the owner/operators fill the chairs and keep the place at least breaking even, it will remain what Alta used to be. 
Lots of major differences, location 30 miles from major metro area/45 mins from international airport, 400+ " of snow annually, etc.

A-Basin reversed its decision on Epic. So there's hope. Skied it since '92, and as soon as they put in the HSQ, most of us knew it was never going to be the same.

Now, Powder. is being affected as Park West was 25 years ago. Seems sport growth is more consolidation than new ski area growth. And, we have NIMBY once we have our place. Thats human nature. Ex: Try waterfront anywhere from central Maine down East Coast. No place for locals. . .  unless you're a former President, or started Netflix. .


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

here is the article - https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2021/03/15/alta-parking-is-mess-are/

its behind a paywall you can beat by opening in a private browser and stopping the loading of the page before the cookies get ya


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Sounds like you're in touring boots, not downhill boots.
> 
> If so, you don't have the experience to talk about walking in downhill boots.
> 
> ...


I’ve never owned touring boots or had a boot with a “walking” mode.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> You're doing it wrong then.  Casually skiing a groomed run requires almost no added effort versus just standing in place and certainly no added impact to my knees.


Again, complete and total BS. If you are doing it right you know how to bend a ski which takes a whole lot more then standing in place. One single turn might not seem like that much effort but getting into 20k of hot laps on groomers and you are all of a sudden doing a lot of exercise. If of course, you are bending the crap out of them skis. 

I’ve got like two more posts in me for this forum and I’m out. Arguing with Jerry’s is only fun for so long.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Woah
> 
> We got a real bad ass in our presence.
> 
> Everyone harden the F up and be more like skiing Ivan Drago here


You’re god damn right Sally, now buckle up because I’ve got a lot more hard to swallow reality pills for ya if you wanna go there.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’ve never owned touring boots or had a boot with a “walking” mode.





abc said:


> Sounds like you're in touring boots, not downhill boots.
> 
> If so, you don't have the experience to talk about walking in downhill boots.
> 
> ...


Other joints? If you get after it it’s hard on your hips, spine, neck and even ankles. Ever hear of skiers thumb? How about huck neck? You haven’t been skiing much if you haven’t.


----------



## Tonyr (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, one of many reasons why vail and vail village sucks. its so common out west tho for there to be no semblance of a base lodge. or at least no giant space with pegs on the wall for bags like we are used to. kicking horse and revelstoke come to mind immediately and there are lots more. snowbird has facilities but it isn't really a lodge. i think there's a locker room on the first floor of that brutalist monstrosity of a structure. the fucked thing about vail tho is how far the parking and the buses are from the lifts. lots of ski boot walking there. but they couldn't possibly give you closer access - they want you to be forced to peruse the retail village and spend spend spend


That brutal structure at the base of Snowbird is built out of solid concrete to withstand avalanches which is why it looks so ugly. The hotel within is actually pretty nice, there is a locker room on the 1st floor.


----------



## abc (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Other joints? If you get after it it’s hard on your hips, spine, neck and even ankles. Ever hear of skiers thumb? How about huck neck? You haven’t been skiing much if you haven’t.


Well, you "two posts" are up. Time to get lost.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> You’re god damn right Sally, now buckle up because I’ve got a lot more hard to swallow reality pills for ya if you wanna go there.


All ears chief


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> All ears chief


I’m not your chief, captain!


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

Gapers.......


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m not your chief, captain!


Me thinks you choked on those pills you're so proud of


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> That brutal structure at the base of Snowbird is built out of solid concrete to withstand avalanches which is why it looks so ugly. The hotel within is actually pretty nice, there is a locker room on the 1st floor.


i stayed in the snowbird lodge last season, last big thing I did before the end times. I never ever stay on mountain, a nice splurge with some homeys. this was right after the big interlodge snowfall


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Me thinks you choked on those pills you're so proud of


Your girlfriend has been choking on something I’m proud of.


----------



## skiur (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Your girlfriend has been choking on something I’m proud of.



That's 5 posts, I thought you only had 2 left?


----------



## abc (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Your girlfriend has been choking on something I’m proud of.





skiur said:


> That's 5 posts, I thought you only had 2 left?


He's leaving a legacy.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Your girlfriend has been choking on something I’m proud of.



Nah....

Try again chief

Maybe something original?


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Nah....
> 
> Try again chief
> 
> Maybe something original?


The whole chief thing is incredibly offensive. I’m .063% Cherokee Indian ffs.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 16, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> The whole chief thing is incredibly offensive. I’m .063% Cherokee Indian ffs.


Chief Swinging Dick your Native name?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2021)

1dog said:


> A-Basin reversed its decision on Epic. So there's hope. Skied it since '92, and as soon as they put in the HSQ, most of us knew it was never going to be the same.


A-Basin jumped over to IKON.  So no real improvement there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> here is the article - https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2021/03/15/alta-parking-is-mess-are/
> 
> its behind a paywall you can beat by opening in a private browser and stopping the loading of the page before the cookies get ya


Right.  Note how there is absolutely no mention of IKON or Alterra.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Omg....this guy and his IKON hate boner.


Must be you renewed your pass or you are employed by Alterra.  Take a look and you will see that there are many, many more people who are not happy with them.  And they are much angrier than I am.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> A-Basin jumped over to IKON.  So no real improvement there.


And yet by all accounts a lot of their crowding issues decreased after the move from Epic to Ikon... That was their goal and it seems to have worked. So how is that not a real improvement?



thetrailboss said:


> Must be you renewed your pass or you are employed by Alterra.  Take a look and you will see that there are many, many more people who are not happy with them.  And they are much angrier than I am.



At least here in the east...I'm not so sure that's the case. Personally I'll need to wait a couple years to see how they handle things at Sugarbush post-COVID to form a full opinion, but from a mountain ops perspective I'm really having a hard time questioning anything they did this season with the challenges they were up against. Lifts operated on normal schedules. Snowmaking seems pretty close to normal from what I can tell. Grooming doesn't seem to have changed. Lift lines here were well-spaced and well-managed. I liked how they treated pass-holders by not requiring us to make reservations to ski and instead tried to limit day tickets as a method of managing capacity. They still have their usual closing date set (dependent on mother nature's cooperation of course). What about any of these things should we be angry about?


----------



## NYDB (Mar 17, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Must be you renewed your pass or you are employed by Alterra.  Take a look and you will see that there are many, many more people who are not happy with them.  And they are much angrier than I am.


I get your IKON hate.  I do.  Go read the wasatch thread over at TGR.   more of the same.  

But it's funny especially from a transplant.  UT Population doubles from 1990 and that doesn't seem to register to you guys who whine and moan, because you are part of that problem.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 17, 2021)

Wonder if this place would be better off being a public ski resort.  Seems there's definitely the demand









						Exclusive Wasatch Peaks Ranch Plans to Open for 2021-22
					

SAM Magazine—Peterson, Utah, Jan. 29, 2021—A new private mountain resort development in Utah aims to open to members for skiing and riding next winter. Cal




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## hub8 (Mar 17, 2021)

I'm with thetrailboss sometimes that I, myself, as an Ikon pass holder, openly wondered with my son whether Alta would be better off with a more exclusive business model.  Maybe not quite the yellowstone club level of exclusivity.  I, for one, would be happy to buy day tickets at Alta for less frenzy powder days if and when Alta quits Ikon.  I interpret thetrailboss as saying that he sees demand at presumably higher season pass prices too.

On last year's big dump day, we actually drove over to the Deer Valley side the night before, and really lucked out with 7 inches of fresh and very few skiers on a lot of our powder runs.  Alta got more snow, as always, but I also saw the pictures of the lift lines afterwards.

But I think in the end, terrain and snowfalls are the king in this business, Alta can screw with their loyal season pass holders all they want with dalliances with any number of mega passes, and the minute Alta ditches the mega passes, they will come back.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I get your IKON hate.  I do.  Go read the wasatch thread over at TGR.   more of the same.
> 
> But it's funny especially from a transplant.  UT Population doubles from 1990 and that doesn't seem to register to you guys who whine and moan, because you are part of that problem.


I've been here for ten years.  The issues have been over the last three.  But since you stayed at a Holiday Inn I have no doubt that you are more of an expert on things out there than I am.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2021)

ikon seems fine to me here. fine enough for me to be a repeat customer. stratton has always been a shitshow, so i typically avoid it. sugarbush this year handled things very well. i just think that with either mega pass, you need to hedge against shitshows with things like the indy pass and magic's products, or whatever indy/off the beaten path option exists out west. if i lived in SLC i would almost certainly be powmow + ikon and i'd avoid LCC like the plague on the weekends.


----------



## abc (Mar 17, 2021)

The problem with SLC is the change in Solitude.

People can't really rely on just 5 days of Bird/Alta for their season. But with "unlimited" in Solitude, they feel justified to have IKON as their "season pass". A lot of people who otherwise doesn't buy a pass are enticed to buy one. Increasing overall skier visit, especially on good condition days.

The result is traffic going to Solitude adds to the overall traffic. That's on top of the parking issue at Solitude. 

To visitors from outside of Utah, they just add to the overall skier visits. How significant those numbers are? I don't have a clue. And Alterra isn't sharing that information either. 

I think this maybe the beginning of the end for mega passes. We'll have a few more years of this increased crowding at low prices. Then there will be some more consolidation and significant price increase coming. Enjoy them while they last for now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

abc said:


> The problem with SLC is the change in Solitude.
> 
> People can't really rely on just 5 days of Bird/Alta for their season. But with "unlimited" in Solitude, they feel justified to have IKON as their "season pass". A lot of people who otherwise doesn't buy a pass are enticed to buy one. Increasing overall skier visit, especially on good condition days.
> 
> ...


That is exactly right.  People are replacing their season passes with this here locally.  And NYDB is correct that an increasing population added to this is making it worse.


----------



## jimk (Mar 17, 2021)

TB, would you say Deer Valley is becoming the go-to mtn for relief on crazy days in LCC and BCC?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

jimk said:


> TB, would you say Deer Valley is becoming the go-to mtn for relief on crazy days in LCC and BCC?


Yep.  As I said recently, one passholder there told me that it used to be that people at DV were always from out of town.  Now it is the opposite.


----------



## keyser soze (Mar 17, 2021)

Zand said:


> Count me out on both of those.
> 
> If anything, the lodges need more cubbies/lockers/storage space. Some mountains have a ton, but too many have none. They should enforce no bags on/under tables. There are some days when booting up in the lodge is infinitely better than at the car.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on all points.  Great minds think alike


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

And just saw this in regards to how IKON works for partner resorts:  



> This is from a lawyer in Jackson Hole in the know, on the dollars behind Ikon.
> Each resort gets $1,000,000 before the lifts even start spinning.
> Once the resort has met the $1,000,000 in skier visits (retail value at the window), then the resort receives $82 per skier per day visit.
> That is money to good to pass up.
> ...





> I keep hearing different iterations of this.
> Another rumor was that their base million is charged at a rate of $32 per skier per day visit, but once they clear that they get $85 per daily scan after that


----------



## NYDB (Mar 17, 2021)

Lawyer willing to be disbarred for divulging sensitive client financial information?  He must be super pissed about the tram lines.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 17, 2021)

Honestly that sounds really really high to me.  $82 for each scan?  What if I ski 50 days on ikon?  I'm sure there's more people that ski 30 days on the pass than 3...doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2021)

i think they bank on people underutilizing offsetting the overutilizers. but still, its wild.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 17, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Honestly that sounds really really high to me.  $82 for each scan?  What if I ski 50 days on ikon?  I'm sure there's more people that ski 30 days on the pass than 3...doesn't make any sense to me.



I agree that $82 sounds high (if you use it at Pico, in some cases Pico would get MORE than they're selling their own day tickets for as an example) ...but don't forget that's AFTER the resort passes the $1M mark (if the info is correct). That means the first 5,000 to 31,250 Ikon scans at a given resort don't count (depending on whether rumor #1 or rumor #2 is true on how they calculate the base revenue offset). Still, with 29 partner resorts, that means Alterra is paying out $29M right off the bat to partners at a minimum.

You also have some people that have Ikon purely to use it at the Alterra unlimited resorts (essentially what I'm doing at Sugarbush unless I happen to make it to K for a day later this season).


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Honestly that sounds really really high to me.  $82 for each scan?  What if I ski 50 days on ikon?  I'm sure there's more people that ski 30 days on the pass than 3...doesn't make any sense to me.


Not exactly.  Each resort gets $1 mill up front.  Then each scan is billed against that until the resort reaches $1 million.  Sounds like it's not clear as to if for the first million it is $35 per pass or retail.  THEN it becomes $85 per scan.  

At what point in the season do you think that each scan becomes $85?  The very last part.  And guess when people DON'T ski?  The end.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 17, 2021)

$1,000,000  Divided by $32 is only 31,250 visits.   Seems low when you consider the places that are on IKon.


----------



## abc (Mar 17, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> $1,000,000  Divided by $32 is only 31,250 visits.   Seems low when you consider the places that are on IKon.


After that it's $82 (or $35?)/scan. Not bad at all (especially if it's the former)


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 17, 2021)

I feel like some of the busier places would roll through that $1 Million pretty fast like in a month.  Then if they get $82?  No wonder no one can say no...


----------



## cdskier (Mar 17, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I feel like some of the busier places would roll through that $1 Million pretty fast like in a month.  Then if they get $82?  No wonder no one can say no...


From what I found in a quick search, some resorts were saying Ikon usage represented around 10% of their visits. If that number held across the majority of the partner resorts, then some resorts would definitely hit that $1M mark somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the way through the season. But don't forget some of the partners are also out of the US. How many people are using Ikon to ski at Chile? Or Japan? Or Zermatt? Or Australia? So I'm sure those are helping offset a bit too as they probably aren't passing the $1M mark.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 17, 2021)

Once upon a time you had to enter a lottery just to buy a season pass at Alta. Ikon is killing that canyon and alot of it is the massive population that lives closeby and can cherry pick their days.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 17, 2021)

I looked up U.S. population stats today. When I was born in 1975, 45 years ago there were around 219 million people here. Now there’s around 330 million. That’s over a 33.33% increase in just 45 years. This is not good. I’m a firm believer the more crowded we become the lower the quality of life becomes.


----------



## abc (Mar 17, 2021)

You're well past your "2 post" limit.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2021)

im doing my part by refusing to procreate and would like if more people made that same choice.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 17, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I looked up U.S. population stats today. When I was born in 1975, 45 years ago there were around 219 million people here. Now there’s around 330 million. That’s over a 33.33% increase in just 45 years. This is not good. I’m a firm believer the more crowded we become the lower the quality of life becomes.


/off topic 

Hang out a few more decades.  Population growth is gonna go flat and then negative by the end of this century by a majority of estimates.

You don't want to see decreasing/aging population.  That royally fucks up a country's economics.  Look at Japan and most of Europe.  China too is gonna be in deep deep shit in the coming decades...apparently a "one child policy" in a nation that prefers males is a bad idea for long-term growth.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im doing my part by refusing to procreate and would like if more people made that same choice.


Unfortunately our Utah brethren are busy making up for you.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 17, 2021)

Im


ss20 said:


> /off topic
> 
> Hang out a few more decades.  Population growth is gonna go flat and then negative by the end of this century by a majority of estimates.
> 
> You don't want to see decreasing/aging population.  That royally fucks up a country's economics.  Look at Japan and most of Europe.  China too is gonna be in deep deep shit in the coming decades...apparently a "one child policy" in a nation that prefers males is a bad idea for long-term growth.


 Long term growth isn’t going to be sustainable for much longer I’m afraid. Actually I’m not afraid at all, it is what it is but at this rate it’s definitely going to pot imho.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 18, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Im
> 
> Long term growth isn’t going to be sustainable for much longer I’m afraid. Actually I’m not afraid at all, it is what it is but at this rate it’s definitely going to pot imho.



The US could fit hundreds of millions more people...we have the natural resources, the technology, and the space to do so.  It'll never happen, and we'll peak in population around 2050 in all likelihood.  

Two things that sound great in theory- lowered population (by a natural decrease in fertility, of course) and deflation.  But both are economic suicide in practice.   And it certainly seems that we're very slowly headed towards both so you may get your wish.  At least for inflation there's very little left for the fed to do to keep it afloat, other than giving every person in America thousands and thousands of dollars of free money...oh wait....


----------



## PAabe (Mar 18, 2021)

According to ol' Malthus we should've been boned several times over by now due to the population growth
In the '80s they thought half the world was going to starve to death
Things will be fine, we'll figure it out.  I think the rate of global population growth has already reached an inflection point or something.  US population would be decreasing if not for immigrants.  I hope to have 2-3 kids, that would seem to be about replacement rate.  Somebody's got to carry on when we quit working.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> US population would be decreasing if not for immigrants.


With the overall anti-immigration sentiment, and stricter immigration control, wouldn't be too surprising that will slow down too. 

So yeah, those of you who isn't even close to retirement age, there won't be enough work force to pay for your social security.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 18, 2021)

Yeah I don't count on seeing any of that money on the social security line of my paycheck ever again


----------



## skiur (Mar 18, 2021)

Social Security was first supposed to run out of money 20 years ago, but somehow its still going.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

skiur said:


> Social Security was first supposed to run out of money 20 years ago, but somehow its still going.


it may still be "going". But the retirement age had been raised. Monthly payment also become less and less in real purchasing power.

It's very likely it'll be there forever, eventually paying only a tad over the poverty line.


----------



## 1dog (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> With the overall anti-immigration sentiment, and stricter immigration control, wouldn't be too surprising that will slow down too.
> 
> So yeah, those of you who isn't even close to retirement age, there won't be enough work force to pay for your social security.


I wouldn't term it 'anti-immigration sentiment' but more 'illegal' as an adverb. Always thought that one ones who would/should be most outraged about the illegal part - those who followed the rules, paid the legal fees, waited 3-5 years or more, becoming an asset to society by becoming US Citizens, paying taxes and contributing to the public welfare. That said, I completely understand those who want to 'break in' when they hear of all the benefits afforded those granted to anyone who makes it across the border.

We slowed to a crawl immigration in the 20's thru '65 to allow them to assimilate to US culture. Now, we're expected to bow to their cultures. . . . . .  imagine demanding another country to teach everything in every language that arrives there?  https://www.migrationpolicy.org/pro...Annual-Number-of-US-Legal-Permanent-Residents

not sure about now, but in the 90's CA had driving test in 19 languages - how many signs are in those. 19 languages?


As for SS- that was another government promise broken - was 'only going to be 1% tax that ' went away' after the 'kitty' was established to throw off enough income from investment to cover 'supplemental' retirement income. Now, it's 15% plus.  Then take the fact that avg age of death as around 65 in 1930's when they came up with this, and they never tagged it to growing life expectancy.

They keep printing $$ like we will never have to pay it back and then double speak about ' saving the earth for our children and children children', all the while spending  next few generations into oblivion. Its both sides, its our fault, we keep 'em there, and history illustrates it has never ended well.


----------



## 1dog (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> it may still be "going". But the retirement age had been raised. Monthly payment also become less and less in real purchasing power.
> 
> It's very likely it'll be there forever, eventually paying only a tad over the poverty line.


That would be the same poverty line that hasn't changed since the Great Society was going to end it forever. . . in 1965, 13-15 trillion dollars later. Perfect illustration. Don't forget the key word 'supplemental'. Was never meant to be a 'living wage'.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> So yeah, those of you who isn't even close to retirement age, there won't be enough work force to pay for your social security.


That's ok, the sooner that program ends the better.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 18, 2021)

COVID aside, I guess going forward I wouldn't mind not getting on a closed in gondola with mixed groups.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

1dog said:


> I wouldn't term it 'anti-immigration sentiment' but more 'illegal' as an adverb. Always thought that one ones who would/should be most outraged about the illegal part - those who followed the rules, paid the legal fees, waited 3-5 years or more, becoming an asset to society by becoming US Citizens, paying taxes and contributing to the public welfare.


You may have voted to stop ILLEGAL immigration. What you had gotten was anti- immigration from countries of the “wrong color”!

How many of my Indian coworkers who were denied visa extension I lost count. Those were LEGAL immigrants who “followed the rules, paid the legal fees...“!


----------



## skiur (Mar 18, 2021)

boston_e said:


> COVID aside, I guess going forward I wouldn't mind not getting on a closed in gondola with mixed groups.



I never liked gondolas, too many people too close together, and taking off your skis sucks.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

skiur said:


> I never liked gondolas, too many people too close together, and taking off your skis sucks.


I ski in the rain. A gondola is way better


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 18, 2021)

skiur said:


> I never liked gondolas, too many people too close together, and taking off your skis sucks.



I agree!  can't have your own conversation.  I would rather meet people on the lift.  It is just my wife and I so under normal circumstances others ride up with us.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 18, 2021)

Sounds like I may be in the minority here but I like talking to other people/groups on the gondola although taking off the skis sucks

Can't even find many people who want to share a quad chair this season and people look at you funny for suggesting it


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Can't even find many people who want to share a quad chair this season and people look at you funny for suggesting it


I've noticed vaccinated people the last couple weeks have been far more willing to ride up on a chair with you.  Hopefully a sign of things to come.  Lines have been pretty obnoxious at times this year with chairs not going up full


----------



## Harvey (Mar 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I've noticed vaccinated people the last couple weeks have been far more willing to ride up on a chair with you.  Hopefully a sign of things to come.  Lines have been pretty obnoxious at times this year with chairs not going up full


Do they tell you they are vaxed? Carry a card? Wear a pin?


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Do they tell you they are vaxed? Carry a card? Wear a pin?


They got grey hair, and wrinkles!


----------



## ss20 (Mar 18, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Do they tell you they are vaxed? Carry a card? Wear a pin?



I would be all-for public recognition of being vaccinated.  I think would be put a lot more at-ease if they went to the grocery store and saw, say, 1 out of every 5 people were vaccinated, or that, in this case, the person riding the ski chair with them was vax'ed.  

Of course there's no actual way to do this, and I'm sure most would be opposed.  Just my wandering thoughts.  But hey, if y'all see a massive "I've been vaccinated" T-shirt at Killington this spring make sure you come over and say hi to ss20 hahaha.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> They got grey hair, and wrinkles!



Actually they're having terrible rashes, growing a third arm, and developing Typhus because of these no-good-terrible-vaccines!


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I would be all-for public recognition of being vaccinated. I think would be put a lot more at-ease if they went to the grocery store and saw, say, 1 out of every 5 people were vaccinated, or that, in this case, the person riding the ski chair with them was vax'ed.
> 
> Of course there's no actual way to do this, and I'm sure most would be opposed.


Actually, it can be done... it's perfectly practical to put a sign to say "All Staff are vaccinated"!

But in reality, that's going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. A lot of people who wish to be vaxed are still having difficulty finding an appointment. Not to mention many more are not even eligible yet. I know. Before I got jabbed, I was real jealous of those who had it. So I don't think I'd like to see a bunch of people sporting a "I'm vaccinated" t-short.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 18, 2021)

I’m not a fan of the vaccine virtue signaling. I think it’s ok that some people don’t want it. I don’t want one. Shaming people that don’t want one or glorifying those that do is lame. It’s a way to control people and it seems like we are headed down a slippery slope. 

I’m over this whole thing. Most of the rules businesses are following to appease authorities are mostly BS. Wearing masks in the lift line even though I’m at least 8 feet from anyone around me is silly. I’ve already had covid and a year later was heavily exposed to it again but I didn’t get sick. I feel like my body has built up plenty of antibodies. I know people will say that I’m wishful thinking or that I can’t know for sure but I know enough to trust my gut about some things.

Anyways, it’s time to move on and end the fear culture that covid has created. This is now getting ridiculous.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 18, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m not a fan of the vaccine virtue signaling. I think it’s ok that some people don’t want it. I don’t want one.
> 
> I’m over this whole thing. Most of the rules businesses are following to appease authorities are mostly BS. Wearing masks in the lift line even though I’m at least 8 feet from anyone around me is silly. I’ve already had covid and a year later was heavily exposed to it again but I didn’t get sick. I feel like my body has built up plenty of antibodies. I know people will say that I’m wishful thinking or that I can’t know for sure but I know enough to trust my gut about some things.
> 
> Anyways, it’s time to move on and end the fear culture that covid has created. This is now getting ridiculous.


I agree. The hysteria has gotten out of hand.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I've noticed vaccinated people the last couple weeks have been far more willing to ride up on a chair with you.  Hopefully a sign of things to come.  Lines have been pretty obnoxious at times this year with chairs not going up full


Everyone out here is over it and fine with grouping up on the chairs, vaccinated or not.

I’m at the point where, I feel that if it’s my time, it’s my time. I refuse to live in fear.

When I had the vid in January of 2020 it was the sickest I’ve ever felt in my life. It seemed like it was trying to kill me for sure but I’m still kicking.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 19, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Do they tell you they are vaxed? Carry a card? Wear a pin?


No, these have all generally been older people.  Thankfully we're not to the point of having to carry a card yet but I'm sure it's coming.  I'm sure they could have been lying, but I doubt it,  Either way I'm fine with riding the chair with people


----------



## 1dog (Mar 19, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m not a fan of the vaccine virtue signaling. I think it’s ok that some people don’t want it. I don’t want one. Shaming people that don’t want one or glorifying those that do is lame. It’s a way to control people and it seems like we are headed down a slippery slope.
> 
> I’m over this whole thing. Most of the rules businesses are following to appease authorities are mostly BS. Wearing masks in the lift line even though I’m at least 8 feet from anyone around me is silly. I’ve already had covid and a year later was heavily exposed to it again but I didn’t get sick. I feel like my body has built up plenty of antibodies. I know people will say that I’m wishful thinking or that I can’t know for sure but I know enough to trust my gut about some things.
> 
> Anyways, it’s time to move on and end the fear culture that covid has created. This is now getting ridiculous.


Well stated RA


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m not a fan of the vaccine virtue signaling. I think it’s ok that some people don’t want it. I don’t want one. Shaming people that don’t want one or glorifying those that do is lame. It’s a way to control people and it seems like we are headed down a slippery slope.
> 
> I’m over this whole thing. Most of the rules businesses are following to appease authorities are mostly BS. Wearing masks in the lift line even though I’m at least 8 feet from anyone around me is silly. I’ve already had covid and a year later was heavily exposed to it again but I didn’t get sick. I feel like my body has built up plenty of antibodies. I know people will say that I’m wishful thinking or that I can’t know for sure but I know enough to trust my gut about some things.
> 
> Anyways, it’s time to move on and end the fear culture that covid has created. This is now getting ridiculous.


I don't see it as virtue signaling.  If a single in line were to say to me "can I ride up with you and FYI i've been fully vaccinated" to me that seems like more of a gesture of courtesy to let the other person know they are most likely safe and not going to give you COVID.  Same thing goes with things like scheduling a business meeting or haircut.

Most of us are "over it" the fatigue is real.  The best way to get past it is to get the majority of the population vaccinated.  Do the right thing for society and for yourself.  Get jabbed when it is available to you.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Sounds like I may be in the minority here but I like talking to other people/groups on the gondola although taking off the skis sucks
> 
> Can't even find many people who want to share a quad chair this season and people look at you funny for suggesting it


I enjoy chatting with and meeting new people.  Being in a small closed box with some dude who has a cold?  Not so much.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> No, these have all generally been older people.  Thankfully we're not to the point of having to carry a card yet but I'm sure it's coming.  I'm sure they could have been lying, but I doubt it,  Either way I'm fine with riding the chair with people


The "vaccine passport" won't be implemented at a government level here in the US, but for sure private business could decide to as for such a thing.  Already a number or cruise lines are indicating proof of vaccination will be a requirement for guests, at least in the near term.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> The "vaccine passport" won't be implemented at a government level here in the US, but for sure private business could decide to as for such a thing.  Already a number or cruise lines are indicating proof of vaccination will be a requirement for guests, at least in the near term.



I work in healthcare.  I don't see proof of vaccination happening for hospital visits, but very much do for hospital employees and contractors like myself.  Almost all major hospitals use credentialing services with large databases that keep track of all of your personal records as a contractor.  The largest such service already has a request out for me to upload my CDC vaccination card. 

Hospital visitors I see still having to be verbally screened with a temperature check for a very long time.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 19, 2021)

No CDC Vacc Cards at our MA Hospitals.

  Yes - you get an a 1 page document on Hospital Stationary stating Name, B-Day, Employee #, Dose #, Vacc Date, Brand, Lot #
 BUT nothing from the CDC or other Federal organization


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> The "vaccine passport" won't be implemented at a government level here in the US, but for sure private business could decide to as for such a thing.  Already a number or cruise lines are indicating proof of vaccination will be a requirement for guests, at least in the near term.


I agree,  we saw a preview of that with ticketmaster too.  The government wont have to mandate it because private business eventually will


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

2Planker said:


> No CDC Vacc Cards at our MA Hospitals.
> 
> Yes - you get an a 1 page document on Hospital Stationary stating Name, B-Day, Employee #, Dose #, Vacc Date, Brand, Lot #
> BUT nothing from the CDC or other Federal organization



That's interesting. I was vaccinated at a Mass General Brigham facility in Mass and they provided me a CDC card.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

2Planker said:


> No CDC Vacc Cards at our MA Hospitals.
> 
> Yes - you get an a 1 page document on Hospital Stationary stating Name, B-Day, Employee #, Dose #, Vacc Date, Brand, Lot #
> BUT nothing from the CDC or other Federal organization



Do you mean that the hospitals you are doing work for are not asking you for your vaccination card, or your hospital is not giving them out?  Curious as I literally don't know one person in Mass who has been vaccinated who was not given the CDC card when they got their jab.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Hospital visitors I see still having to be verbally screened with a temperature check for a very long time.



I do a lot of business with food manufacturing and processing facilities.  I don't see that screening ever going away in that industry.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> The "vaccine passport" won't be implemented at a government level here in the US, but for sure private business could decide to as for such a thing.  Already a number or cruise lines are indicating proof of vaccination will be a requirement for guests, at least in the near term.



yankee stadium is opening this season at 20% capacity with proof of vaccination or recent test results required.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yankee stadium is opening this season at 20% capacity with proof of vaccination or recent test results required.


They should open at 100% if they are requiring proof of vaccination. Although they should not accept recent test results because as soon as you are tested you could contact it.


----------



## kbroderick (Mar 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I do a lot of business with food manufacturing and processing facilities.  I don't see that screening ever going away in that industry.


Temperature checks, last I saw any data on the subject, didn't seem particularly effective against covid-19--the reporting I saw indicated that something like 2/3 of the patients hospitalized for covid at participating facilities never showed a significant fever.

However, if your temperature is over 100 degrees, that seems to suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be congregating with other people, whether the fever is covid-related or not.


----------



## Harvey (Mar 19, 2021)

I kind of down on the whole posting it on social media.  People are happy and can't control themselves, ok I get it.  Ooh look at Johnny he's good to go!  I wish I was him.

I'm not going to do anything extra-ordinary to get to the head of the line. When they call me I'll go.

Then again I've had covid so maybe it's "not fair" of me to be basically unworried.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 19, 2021)

I hope we don’t have to carry a card. I’ll end up losing mine. I’d much prefer micro chips and bar code neck tattoos.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> That's interesting. I was vaccinated at a Mass General Brigham facility in Mass and they provided me a CDC card.


I was Tufts Med Cntr, very early on. Maybe the cards didn't exist in December ??
Have documentation, Just no CDC card


----------



## boston_e (Mar 19, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Temperature checks, last I saw any data on the subject, didn't seem particularly effective against covid-19--the reporting I saw indicated that something like 2/3 of the patients hospitalized for covid at participating facilities never showed a significant fever.
> 
> However, if your temperature is over 100 degrees, that seems to suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be congregating with other people, whether the fever is covid-related or not.



You hit the nail on the head.... 5 to 10 years ago the attitude in manufacturing was very much "tough it out and get to work", now it has changed to "we don't want sick people bringing stuff into our plant" regardless of if the fever is from covid or the flu or some other virus etc.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 19, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I hope we don’t have to carry a card. I’ll end up losing mine. I’d much prefer micro chips and bar code neck tattoos.


Or we could just wear collars.


----------



## abc (Mar 19, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Or we could just wear collars.


"Could"? We already do!

It's a thin, rectangular piece of metal frame with glass on one side... it's call a cell phone!

When was the last time you leave home without it? How many go to shower without having it nearby?

Your whereabout is always known to an ever seeing eye. What you buy, what you eat, who you contact... all are known to an ever present super being up above in "the cloud"...

All those talk about "slippery slope" or "control over us"... just make me laugh


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 19, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Or we could just wear collars.


Now you’re talking! Maybe ones that explode if anyone were to create a resistance or question the authority of our all knowing overlords and vaccination producers.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 19, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Temperature checks, last I saw any data on the subject, didn't seem particularly effective against covid-19--the reporting I saw indicated that something like 2/3 of the patients hospitalized for covid at participating facilities never showed a significant fever.
> 
> However, if your temperature is over 100 degrees, that seems to suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be congregating with other people, whether the fever is covid-related or not.


As the crew leader I had to do temperature checks of my crew when we were doing the heart trail project last year.

one of my crew members during debrief asked the CPC if the rectal thermometer was really necessary. Man I wish I could have seen her face. The kid that said that is really funny and has a hell of a good poker face.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 20, 2021)

abc said:


> "Could"? We already do!
> 
> It's a thin, rectangular piece of metal frame with glass on one side... it's call a cell phone!
> 
> ...


My cell phone is never glued to my hand. I leave home without it frequently.

Nothing on or about that device can't wait until later. I'm lucky I'm retired so I'm too busy living life!

And who is talking about slippery slopes or control? Other than you?


----------



## Edd (Mar 20, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Now you’re talking! Maybe ones that explode if anyone were to create a resistance or question the authority of our all knowing overlords and vaccination producers.


Drama queen energy right there.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> Drama queen energy right there.


Hmmm, we’ll see.

everyone’s willingness, compliance and more importantly the shaming on those that are questioning the current events and possible outcomes is definitely alarming imo. Im seeing a lot of very soft and mailable sheep energy out there.

don’t mistaken my post with the anti science or anti vaccine crowd. That’s not my point. The social experiment that’s happening right now is what I’m concerned with watching. It’s pretty obvious how easily it would be for those with power to manipulate and control the majority with promises of safety.

its not a whole lot different then getting people to work their lives away with the promise of ten last “golden years” for comfort using the fear of old age and death.


----------



## abc (Mar 20, 2021)

JimG. said:


> And who is talking about slippery slopes or control? Other than you?


Your memory is faulty:


raisingarizona said:


> It’s a way to control people and it seems like we are headed down a slippery slope.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Your memory is faulty:


Oooo, good one abc, Go get em!


----------



## Edd (Mar 20, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Hmmm, we’ll see.
> 
> everyone’s willingness, compliance and more importantly the shaming on those that are questioning the current events and possible outcomes is definitely alarming imo. Im seeing a lot of very soft and mailable sheep energy out there.
> 
> ...


My sense of things is everyone hates this, except the homebodies/introverts. We all want the same thing eventually. I guess the real disagreements come in the speed of returning to normalcy. Personally, I want the masks off no later than summer. I wear a mask for 12 hours a day at work, and I hate it.

But, I don’t feel oppressed or controlled. We’re not there yet.


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> My sense of things is everyone hates this, except the homebodies/introverts. We all want the same thing eventually. I guess the real disagreements come in the speed of returning to normalcy. Personally, I want the masks off no later than summer. I wear a mask for 12 hours a day at work, and I hate it.
> 
> But, I don’t feel oppressed or controlled. We’re not there yet.


Absolutely, we aren’t there yet but it does seem telling of what could be.

12 hours a day? Ugh, that sucks. Sorry man. Hopefully by summer it’s over with. I’m worried that a lot of people will have a hard time moving forward. Hopefully not.


----------



## abc (Mar 20, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m worried that a lot of people will have a hard time moving forward. Hopefully not.


Now that's a slippery slope!  

Worrying about people who wouldn't take off their mask! Do you worry a family member who sprang an ankle refuse to ever walk again?


----------



## rebel1916 (Mar 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> My sense of things is everyone hates this, except the homebodies/introverts. We all want the same thing eventually. I guess the real disagreements come in the speed of returning to normalcy. Personally, I want the masks off no later than summer. I wear a mask for 12 hours a day at work, and I hate it.
> 
> But, I don’t feel oppressed or controlled. We’re not there yet.


I'm a CO.  All of the important parts of my job involve communication.  Often with agitated or unbalanced people.  Often in noisy environments.  Often under stress.  I can assure you that the mask makes my job much harder.  I can't wait to be done with em, but I foresee at least another summer.


----------



## jimk (Mar 20, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> I'm a CO.









I bet you had to deal with some scary covid outbreak situations?!?


----------



## spiderpig (Mar 21, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> eryone’s willingness, compliance and more importantly the shaming on those that are questioning the current events and possible outcomes is definitely alarming imo. Im seeing a lot of very soft and mailable sheep energy out there.


Do they get shepherded to the post office by dogs or does that scare the mailmen?


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 22, 2021)

abc said:


> Now that's a slippery slope!
> 
> Worrying about people who wouldn't take off their mask! Do you worry a family member who sprang an ankle refuse to ever walk again?



I know some people that have health issues and they are traumatized and do not dare to leave their home fearing that there could be something else out there that is bad, while my wife and I are on the opposite spectrum.


----------



## rebel1916 (Mar 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> I bet you had to deal with some scary covid outbreak situations?!?


My place had some stretches that got kinda busy but we have been lucky overall.  Some other places got overwhelmed at times.  Fortunately none of the NYS prisons were ever in a situation where there were large numbers of deaths, either staff or inmates.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 22, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know some people that have health issues and they are traumatized and do not dare to leave their home fearing that there could be something else out there that is bad, while my wife and I are on the opposite spectrum.



My dad was too scared to go out other than necessary with COVID and now he's fearful of the vaccine...only wants the JnJ and is waiting til he can only get that one.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 22, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know some people that have health issues and they are traumatized and do not dare to leave their home fearing that there could be something else out there that is bad, while my wife and I are on the opposite spectrum.


I rode up Canyon Quad at Mount Snow Saturday with a guy from the NYC area who will have his 1yr anniversary of his Covid diagnosis. He told me that he got really sick, almost 6 weeks in the ICU, his family was told on multiple occasions that he may not make it to the next morning. His business was closed for over 6 months with his 20 or so employees furloughed, and half are now back. Took him over 6 months until he felt "mostly normal" again. He said that he did have an underlying condition that played into it (he didn't specify what that was), and I'd estimate him to be in his late 50's.

He said that for sure the disease is a big deal for some. He also said that he is absolutely disgusted with how COVID has been overly politicized and blown out of proportion for so many needlessly by the media.

It was a very interesting getting to randomly share a chair with him on a beautiful early Spring day on the slopes


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2021)

Yeah my recent 3 weeks in UT and all the quad chair rides I shared with one other single was my most social interaction with strangers in a year.  It was my impression that the typical Utahn was much less alarmed about covid than my typical senior acquaintances back east.  Many seemed to be not really anti-vax, but somewhat apathetic about the vax.  I often get an earful about politics on lift rides when people find out I'm from DC area, whether they are conservative or liberal.  So glad 2020 is behind us.
My wife is still not ready to fly even though she's had both doses of pfizer.  Hence, we're back in the car for the return trip west in a few days.


----------



## abc (Mar 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> My wife is still not ready to fly even though she's had both doses of pfizer.


I'm not ready to fly either.

But it's got nothing to do with catching Covid. I just hate wearing mask for long period of time. The longest I've worn it is for an hour, getting my shoulder PT. I just felt like I can't breath freely and pretty uncomfortable. I don't think I'll get used to it at all. Though I don't mind wearing it to grocery shop, to doctor's office, etc. Those are only 1/2 hr or less. Wearing mask on a cross country flight for several hours is very unappealing to me.

(when skiing, I only pull it over my nose when I enter the lift correl. Once I unload from the chair, I pull it down. Again, less than 1/2 hr each time)


----------



## kingslug (Mar 23, 2021)

Sat on the plane with a mask..no big deal. At least Utah isn't that long a trip. Needed to get the hell out of here for a while.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 23, 2021)

abc said:


> But it's got nothing to do with catching Covid. I just hate wearing mask for long period of time.
> 
> (when skiing, I only pull it over my nose when I enter the lift correl. Once I unload from the chair, I pull it down. Again, less than 1/2 hr each time)



that is how I have felt for a while.  I'll be putting it to the test next week when I fly to Florida to see my son for Easter.  A dentist friend is giving the wife and I N95 masks to wear.  



kingslug said:


> Sat on the plane with a mask..no big deal. At least Utah isn't that long a trip. Needed to get the hell out of here for a while.



I am hoping this is the case, because I too need to get out of here...


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 23, 2021)

I favor opening optional indoor activities only once vaccines are available to all who want them and then only to those who have gotten them. It will incentivize the reluctant to get them, and keep both those who have gotten them and those who have not gotten them safer.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm not wearing a fucking mask for 12 hour shifts in the hot kitchen this summer I'm done with all that and im not alone...but hey I got me an appointment in a few weeks so I guess it doesn't really matter. Pump us full of it and open it up.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm not wearing a fucking mask for 12 hour shifts in the hot kitchen this summer I'm done with all that and im not alone...but hey I got me an appointment in a few weeks so I guess it doesn't really matter. Pump us full of it and open it up.



My season starts in a month... I've already been warned we're gonna be stupid busy. We're literally going to be doing 2 seasons worth of weddings in one season.  We do a 70/30 split of outdoor/indoor venues and max out at about 200 people so for most events the restrictions are already moot or should be a non-issue with the next rollback.  I work 50/50 inside/outside but any time it's above 60 degrees outside you're sweating in this industry as you well know.  

Truthfully I'm somewhat excited for what this year will bring to the hospitality industry.  Last year we did maybe a dozen events and felt grateful for each one.  Now I'm ready for 100 events to actually make some money!


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> My season starts in a month... I've already been warned we're gonna be stupid busy. We're literally going to be doing 2 seasons worth of weddings in one season.  We do a 70/30 split of outdoor/indoor venues and max out at about 200 people so for most events the restrictions are already moot or should be a non-issue with the next rollback.  I work 50/50 inside/outside but any time it's above 60 degrees outside you're sweating in this industry as you well know.
> 
> Truthfully I'm somewhat excited for what this year will bring to the hospitality industry.  Last year we did maybe a dozen events and felt grateful for each one.  Now I'm ready for 100 events to actually make some money!


As soon as I get that shot I'm making a move because I know we wont get the help we need to get through this summer. I just dont have it in me for another string of 80 hour work weeks. Last summer was the absolute worst could not find help because of that sweet sweet unemployment. I think I'm gonna take a little time off from this industry. I'll be back lol


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> My season starts in a month... I've already been warned we're gonna be stupid busy. We're literally going to be doing 2 seasons worth of weddings in one season.  We do a 70/30 split of outdoor/indoor venues and max out at about 200 people so for most events the restrictions are already moot or should be a non-issue with the next rollback.  I work 50/50 inside/outside but any time it's above 60 degrees outside you're sweating in this industry as you well know.
> 
> Truthfully I'm somewhat excited for what this year will bring to the hospitality industry.  Last year we did maybe a dozen events and felt grateful for each one.  Now I'm ready for 100 events to actually make some money!


the events, entertainment, travel, and fun industries are going to fucking BOOM. roaring 20s style.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 23, 2021)

summer onward will be lit.  party time


----------



## kingslug (Mar 23, 2021)

Miami Beach already started.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm not wearing a fucking mask for 12 hour shifts in the hot kitchen this summer I'm done with all that and im not alone...but hey I got me an appointment in a few weeks so I guess it doesn't really matter. Pump us full of it and open it up.


Well that's the way it should be, but the "experts" dont seem to think that can happen


----------



## JimG. (Mar 23, 2021)

Let's face it, masks are permanent so get used to it.

Once COVID is passe it'll be some other germ.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Let's face it, masks are permanent so get used to it.
> 
> Once COVID is passe it'll be some other germ.


Sadly I agree.  Every Cold/Flu season....


----------



## abc (Mar 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Let's face it, masks are permanent so get used to it.
> 
> Once COVID is passe it'll be some other germ.





icecoast1 said:


> Sadly I agree.  Every Cold/Flu season....


Depends on what you mean by "mask". Is it REQUIRED? I doubt it. I'm willing to bet it will NOT be required by end of this year. Probably a lot sooner than that.

But if by "masks are permanent", you mean some people will be wearing masks, and people will not give them a second look. As opposed to viewing the masked people as weirdos as it were the case pre-pandemic. Then I'd HOPE that will become the case "permanently"!


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

I'll probably wear a mask when I fly going forward actually.

I'm not anti mask by any means just ranting about the work thing because it gets insufferable and given the environment accomplishes very little. I'm not face to face with customers


----------



## PAabe (Mar 23, 2021)

can't see masks being permanent other than people who know they are sick.  I don't have a problem with wearing them right now and I wear one all day at work but it doesn't change the fact that they are creepy and unpleasant and hinder communication.  I sure hope we can stop wearing them soon permanently.


----------



## abc (Mar 23, 2021)

PAabe said:


> people who know they are sick.


Or people who don’t want to get sick


----------



## Andrew B. (Mar 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Or people who don’t want to get sick


Hurting our overall resiliency as a species


----------



## skiur (Mar 24, 2021)

In the long run masks and social distancing may make people worse off.  Our immune system needs to have contact with germs to work properly.  We aren't born with the ability to fight sickness, we need to be exposed to it to build up the ability to fight it.  This currently is not happening.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 24, 2021)

skiur said:


> In the long run masks and social distancing may make people worse off.  Our immune system needs to have contact with germs to work properly.  We aren't born with the ability to fight sickness, we need to be exposed to it to build up the ability to fight it.  This currently is not happening.


Actually, yes we are born with the ability to fight a lot of germs, but not all. Hence the vaccinations.

Edit - But I do agree with the need to continue to be exposed to different viruses and germs thought out life is a good thing to keep a healthy immune system.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Depends on what you mean by "mask". Is it REQUIRED? I doubt it. I'm willing to bet it will NOT be required by end of this year. Probably a lot sooner than that.
> 
> But if by "masks are permanent", you mean some people will be wearing masks, and people will not give them a second look. As opposed to viewing the masked people as weirdos as it were the case pre-pandemic. Then I'd HOPE that will become the case "permanently"!



I agree with this.  I would guess we will see plenty of people in masks on planes, public transport  etc etc for a while and nobody will think twice about it.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the events, entertainment, travel, and fun industries are going to fucking BOOM. roaring 20s style.



It will be interesting to see.  It may boom, or are there enough people whose habits have permanently changed?  I know for my family, we used to go out to eat a lot, and after a year of not doing it, I can't say I miss it all that much... once things go back to "normal" I'm sure we will still go out to eat on occasion, but this experience has definitely made us realize how much we used to spend on going out so our wallet is a lot happier, and how much healthier we have been eating, so our waistline is happier too.

Same thing for us with concerts and sporting events.  We used to go quite frequently, but realizing we are not missing all that much $600 days for the family to go to Fenway Park.


----------



## rebel1916 (Mar 24, 2021)

boston_e said:


> It will be interesting to see.  It may boom, or are there enough people whose habits have permanently changed?  I know for my family, we used to go out to eat a lot, and after a year of not doing it, I can't say I miss it all that much... once things go back to "normal" I'm sure we will still go out to eat on occasion, but this experience has definitely made us realize how much we used to spend on going out so our wallet is a lot happier, and how much healthier we have been eating, so our waistline is happier too.
> 
> Same thing for us with concerts and sporting events.  We used to go quite frequently, but realizing we are not missing all that much $600 days for the family to go to Fenway Park.


Look at skiing this year.  The first arena or amphitheater concert, the first ballgame etc are gonna sell out in minutes.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 24, 2021)

ya, and look at the shitshow in Miami. some people will change behavior but the vast majority are itching to go out and do shit.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

boston_e said:


> It will be interesting to see.  It may boom, or are there enough people whose habits have permanently changed?  I know for my family, we used to go out to eat a lot, and after a year of not doing it, I can't say I miss it all that much... once things go back to "normal" I'm sure we will still go out to eat on occasion, but this experience has definitely made us realize how much we used to spend on going out so our wallet is a lot happier, and how much healthier we have been eating, so our waistline is happier too.
> 
> Same thing for us with concerts and sporting events.  We used to go quite frequently, but realizing we are not missing all that much $600 days for the family to go to Fenway Park.



Going out to eat for a relaxing meal in a nice restaurant is one of the things I miss the most.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Going out to eat for a relaxing meal in a nice restaurant is one of the things I miss the most.



Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it as well, but at least for us the experience of the past year and seeing how much money we saved and how much healthier we are eating will likely result is us going out to each a lot less than pre-pandemic life.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 24, 2021)

One permanent change is overcrowding at Vail resorts.  Its clear that is here to stay.


----------



## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Actually, yes we are born with the ability to fight a lot of germs, but not all. Hence the vaccinations.


Actually... we're born with the ability to fight almost all of the gems. The key being a "fight". Some of us win the fight, some of us lose.

Vaccination however, improve our odds of winning the fight. It's like putting on armors when going to a fight. Do you want to wear armor? Or do you want to be "tough" and go without?


----------



## drjeff (Mar 24, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> One permanent change is overcrowding at SOME Vail resorts.  Its clear that is here to stay.


Fixed it for you   

As there were certainly some of the Vail Resorts that were crowded before COVID, crowded this season, and likely will be crowded for years to come


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it as well, but at least for us the experience of the past year and seeing how much money we saved and how much healthier we are eating will likely result is us going out to each a lot less than pre-pandemic life.



I don't really think for me it was that much difference in money or healthier eating. I've always cooked/eaten at home quite a bit and think it is relatively healthy most of the time. Pre-pandemic I was typically going out to eat maybe once a week or so. During the pandemic I was still getting takeout from at least some of those same restaurants once a week or so. Costs shouldn't have been that different in that case for me (although one important caveat...NJ has a high number of BYOB restaurants so I'm rarely paying for alcohol at restaurants in NJ when I go out).


----------



## raisingarizona (Mar 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually... we're born with the ability to fight almost all of the gems. The key being a "fight". Some of us win the fight, some of us lose.
> 
> Vaccination however, improve our odds of winning the fight. It's like putting on armors when going to a fight. Do you want to wear armor? Or do you want to be "tough" and go without?


This is that bullying that’s going to make a lot of people say no, f your vaccine.


----------



## Edd (Mar 24, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> This is that bullying that’s going to make a lot of people say no, f your vaccine.


Are you able to think about more as pitching in for the public good? Thats how I think of it.


----------



## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

This is one case where the "public good" takes 2nd seat to Darwinism. Either way we win. 

The vaccinated don't get sick. The unvaccinated do. But those who survive the infection, they are immune just like those vaccinated. Only the weak AND STUPID, who choose not to vaccinate, and lose the fight, got eliminated.  

I don't feel sorry for them. I sympathize those who didn't get a chance to get vaccinated. But I can't sympathize those who refuse to get vaccinated. I just can't.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 24, 2021)

Hold on everyone, going to get some popcorn!!!! lol


----------



## Harvey (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Going out to eat for a relaxing meal in a nice restaurant is one of the things I miss the most.


I miss riding lifts with whoever.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I miss riding lifts with whoever.



Interestingly enough, I've probably had better rides this year on the lifts than usual. A lot of the chairs at Sugarbush are Quads. In a normal year as a single I'd usually end up being paired up with a triple on a quad. 3 people that know each other and 1 outsider means I'm usually left out of many conversations on a lift. This year I've been able to ride the Quad with another single quite a few times and had a lot of good conversations because it is 1 on 1.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

T


cdskier said:


> Interestingly enough, I've probably had better rides this year on the lifts than usual. A lot of the chairs at Sugarbush are Quads. In a normal year as a single I'd usually end up being paired up with a triple on a quad. 3 people that know each other and 1 outsider means I'm usually left out of many conversations on a lift. This year I've been able to ride the Quad with another single quite a few times and had a lot of good conversations because it is 1 on 1.


That will go back to normal next season!


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> T
> 
> That will go back to normal next season!



Yea...which sucks for me!


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 24, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I miss riding lifts with whoever.


 I initially read that as

I miss riding lifts with whores


        

carry on


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## Killingtime (Mar 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I initially read that as
> 
> I miss riding lifts with whores
> 
> ...


Speaking of that, I do miss the occasional beer at a local strip club with some buddies. Seriously, all in all it was a great winter. Hit a lot of resorts I would not normally go to and some of those will now be part of my repeat visit list.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 24, 2021)

i do not miss riding chair lifts with randoms. i love keeping my music on, smoking my smoke if i want to, and not getting smashed in the head by the bar by overeager safety bar zealots.


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## kingslug (Mar 24, 2021)

Haven't gotten sick in about 2 years so far..not even a cold...hmmm. 
Probably because me and George Carlin did the same thing growing up...swam in raw sewage and didn't care about the water we drank. Who knows.....


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Haven't gotten sick in about 2 years so far..not even a cold...hmmm.
> Probably because me and George Carlin did the same thing growing up...swam in raw sewage and didn't care about the water we drank. Who knows.....



Amazing how that regular practice of hand washing/personal hygiene, and keeping a few extra feet between folks, and arguably wearing a mask (not that everyone wears them properly by any means) makes a difference in the spread of communicable diseases.....    

Next thing you know we'll find out that our Mother's were right when they told us that eating more vegetables is good for you and don't touch a hot stove!


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## kingslug (Mar 24, 2021)

Since getting married a second time..I have never eaten more friggin vegetables in my life.


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## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Interestingly enough, I've probably had better rides this year on the lifts than usual. A lot of the chairs at Sugarbush are Quads. In a normal year as a single I'd usually end up being paired up with a triple on a quad. 3 people that know each other and 1 outsider means I'm usually left out of many conversations on a lift. This year I've been able to ride the Quad with another single quite a few times and had a lot of good conversations because it is 1 on 1.


Same here!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Haven't gotten sick in about 2 years so far..not even a cold...hmmm.
> Probably because me and George Carlin did the same thing growing up...swam in raw sewage and didn't care about the water we drank. Who knows.....



some dude swam the length of the gowanus a couple years ago to make some point about how dirty and disgusting it is. 

ewww. just walking over the bridge you can smell the stink.









						Swimmer Braves Brooklyn’s Gowanus Canal, a Superfund Site (Published 2015)
					

Christopher Swain, 47, spent nearly an hour performing a “modified head-up grandma breaststroke” in the Hulk-green, foam-smeared waters of one of North America’s most polluted waterways.




					www.nytimes.com


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## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Haven't gotten sick in about 2 years so far..not even a cold...hmmm.
> Probably because me and George Carlin did the same thing growing up...swam in raw sewage and didn't care about the water we drank. Who knows.....


Only 2 years (not getting sick)?

I thought you wouldn’t get sick at all after those tough training of your immune system growing up!


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## Domeskier (Mar 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some dude swam the length of the gowanus a couple years ago to make some point about how dirty and disgusting it is.



Anti-masker armchair immunologists will soon be hailing this guy as the discoverer of the fountain of youth.


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## xlr8r (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Interestingly enough, I've probably had better rides this year on the lifts than usual. A lot of the chairs at Sugarbush are Quads. In a normal year as a single I'd usually end up being paired up with a triple on a quad. 3 people that know each other and 1 outsider means I'm usually left out of many conversations on a lift. This year I've been able to ride the Quad with another single quite a few times and had a lot of good conversations because it is 1 on 1.


Agreed, while it has been rare to ride up with someone else this season.  The times I have ridden with another single has usually led to good conversations.  Especially when pairing up with another single without guidance to do so from the lift attendants.


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## Harvey (Mar 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> do not miss riding chair lifts with randoms.


I really meant friends.


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Most people get at least 1 cold a year...Nothing so far..not even a sniffle. When I was a kid I used to get strep throat a lot..they pumped me up with so much penicillin..maybe it finaly paid off. 
After a trip to Whistler, the whole group got deathly ill. I got it as soon as I got back and it knocked me out for a week..then the medicine they gave me which contained Codien..really knocked me out. Passed out, smashed the counter top, blood everywhere..knocked out another week. I think it was something in the HVAC system of the hotel. That was 4 years ago I think..last time I got that sick.


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## xlr8r (Mar 25, 2021)

I think the expanded base area outdoor spaces will be here to stay.  Increase in deck/patio space, outdoor seating, and takeout food windows have been nice enhancements to base lodges this season.  They might not be used much during cold mid winter days going forward, but it has been great to sit and eat/drink outside these past couple weeks in warm weather.


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## Teleskier (Mar 25, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Interestingly enough, I've probably had better rides this year on the lifts than usual. A lot of the chairs at Sugarbush are Quads. In a normal year as a single I'd usually end up being paired up with a triple on a quad. 3 people that know each other and 1 outsider means I'm usually left out of many conversations on a lift. This year I've been able to ride the Quad with another single quite a few times and had a lot of good conversations because it is 1 on 1.


Same experience here. A rare upside example from COVID with all its otherwise dangers... these chair conversations have been fun... better than usual... and for me it was the most in-person social contact I've had all year... seemed like it was for others too. Everyone seemed eager to talk and share.


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## Teleskier (Mar 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Most people get at least 1 cold a year...Nothing so far..not even a sniffle. When I was a kid I used to get strep throat a lot..they pumped me up with so much penicillin..maybe it finaly paid off.
> After a trip to Whistler, the whole group got deathly ill. I got it as soon as I got back and it knocked me out for a week..then the medicine they gave me which contained Codien..really knocked me out. Passed out, smashed the counter top, blood everywhere..knocked out another week. I think it was something in the HVAC system of the hotel. That was 4 years ago I think..last time I got that sick.



I hardly ever get colds at home. However like your experience, the three worst colds I've had all came after flying for ski trips out west, including Whistler as well.

COVID gives me the excuse to wear a mask on a plane (haven't flown since pandemic and no plans yet) however I'm likely to wear a mask on my next ski trip flights... risking getting odd looks or not. I wonder if we all have adopted the ever-present "OK for X percent of people wearing face masks in public" like Asia has had for years. Masks work, washing hands works. I always wiped my tray table even before pandemic.  Aerosols matter.


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## drjeff (Mar 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i do not miss riding chair lifts with randoms.



On back to back rides up the Canyon Quad at Mount Snow last Saturday I 1st got paired up with a local who's family owns a local farm and were actively in the annual sugaring process and he was talking about all that goes into the maple sugaring process from tree to finished product. That was interesting.

Then the next ride was with the guy I mentioned earlier in this thread and his accounts of his very serious experiences he had with COVID about a year ago and his return to health - that was interesting as well

Then my 15yr old high  school sophomore son, got paired up on the Bluebird with 2 college aged sophomore women, who thought that my son (he's about 6 feet tall currently) was also a college sophomore and started chatting him up..... He definitely thought that was a fun random pairing on a lift ride!    

I do appreciate solo chair rides at times for sure. However the conversations one can have and people you can meet on a chair at times can be quite fun and interesting if one is feeling sociable!


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

As a fan of sci fi books I remember reading a series (not sure of the name now) where a segment of the population resided in self supporting Hermetic machines...sci fi tends to foreshadow such things somewhat accurately. I hope I'm not around for that. 
But I think mask wearing is here to stay..Covid certainly is.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> I hardly ever get colds at home. However like your experience, the three worst colds I've had all came after flying for ski trips out west, including Whistler as well.
> 
> COVID gives me the excuse to wear a mask on a plane (haven't flown since pandemic and no plans yet) however I'm likely to wear a mask on my next ski trip flights... risking getting odd looks or not. I wonder if we all have adopted the ever-present "OK for X percent of people wearing face masks in public" like Asia has had for years. Masks work, washing hands works. I always wiped my tray table even before pandemic.  Aerosols matter.


Masks Didn’t work so well in wuhan


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Ever see The Andromeda Strain..pretty much Wuhan in the beginning...


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## Teleskier (Mar 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Ever see The Andromeda Strain..pretty much Wuhan in the beginning...


Impactful movie! That movie - like quite a number of other sci-fi and drama films from the 1970's - has stuck deep in my memory all these years and likely inform my POV in ways I'm not even aware of. I saw them on re-runs/etc but while young... is that why they stuck with me, or did they just make more intellectually thought-provoking movies back then? Likely both.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> I hardly ever get colds at home. However like your experience, the three worst colds I've had all came after flying for ski trips out west, including Whistler as well.
> 
> COVID gives me the excuse to wear a mask on a plane (haven't flown since pandemic and no plans yet) however I'm likely to wear a mask on my next ski trip flights... risking getting odd looks or not. I wonder if we all have adopted the ever-present "OK for X percent of people wearing face masks in public" like Asia has had for years. Masks work, washing hands works. I always wiped my tray table even before pandemic.  Aerosols matter.


I got a really nasty cold/flu once from flying. Knocked me out for 1 week. Then moving like a zombie for a whole month in a bit of a "fog". 

But I probably got a lot more cold/flu from my daily commute! So, if it's "in fashion", I really would prefer to wear a mask on the subway/bus. I'd fly maksless before I ride the subway/bus maskless.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Masks Didn’t work so well in wuhan


???


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## JimG. (Mar 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> As a fan of sci fi books I remember reading a series (not sure of the name now) where a segment of the population resided in self supporting Hermetic machines...sci fi tends to foreshadow such things somewhat accurately. I hope I'm not around for that.
> But I think mask wearing is here to stay..Covid certainly is.


Oregon is considering making mask wearing permanent.

And one of the pharmacartel CEO's has come out and said that COVID vaccination will be a yearly or semiannual ritual.

Time to buy some narcostocks!


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

we (gf and i) were quite sick in late march, early april. being subway riders until mid-march, we were sure we had the covid. she had a deep cough. it was all so new, i was silently freaking out that my girlfriend was going to fucking die. she sounded terrible. i had a headache, constantly, for almost 2 weeks. we thought for sure we had covid. at that time, it was not possible to get tested. multiple subsequent antibody tests say nope. weird stuff. other than that, we haven't been sick with cold/flu at all. just typical migraines and allergies that i always deal with.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Oregon is considering making mask wearing permanent.


It'll be received as well as the VT second home rental bill: DIA!



JimG. said:


> And one of the pharmacartel CEO's has come out and said that COVID vaccination will be a yearly or semiannual ritual.


That's possible. Just like flu vaccines. Probably only "recommended" for seniors. 

Fast forward a few years, the young and healthy ones will either get the initial vaccine, or get mild infection. They will become somewhat immune to all the new variants. Just like flu, which kills a fair number of seniors too.


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## JimG. (Mar 25, 2021)

abc said:


> It'll be received as well as the VT second home rental bill: DIA!
> 
> 
> That's possible. Just like flu vaccines. Probably only "recommended" for seniors.
> ...


Getting back to kingslug's point, then you also agree that COVID is here to stay.

3...2...1


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

I think not taking metro north or subways has had a major impact on catching something..That  and my building which normaly has 1000 people in it..now about 10. 
I may never ride these trains again..I can drive anywhere and since drinking is no longer an issue..no worries there.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

ya, its bizarre that i havent rode the subway in a full year. having a car has been so nice during covid. my girlfriend still takes the A train to get to physical therapy in manhattan. she says its pretty sketchy these days.


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Used to take the A from 125'th st...at 6 am.....sketchy aint the word.....


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

yea, its the shadiest line in my opinion. my luck has been fine, but my gf was privy to a stabbing, and someone pulling a gun to threaten someone else with, in separate incidents, both pre-covid. now she says the train is just sort of desolate and there's a good chance you get on a car alone with an unstable character. not good. and we ride the train from high street brooklyn bridge one stop to fulton street. one bougie area to one major transit hub. the ends of the A train line are probably straight up scary.


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## Killingtime (Mar 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, its bizarre that i havent rode the subway in a full year. having a car has been so nice during covid. my girlfriend still takes the A train to get to physical therapy in manhattan. she says its pretty sketchy these days.


Same with LIRR. Had to go to 35th & 5th a few months ago to get something from my office and Penn Station was definitely loaded with all kinds of sketchy characters. Lots of storefronts empty. Definitely had that post-apocalyptic feeling. Heard its getting better but I have zero desire to take a train into NYC again.


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## JimG. (Mar 25, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> Same with LIRR. Had to go to 35th & 5th a few months ago to get something from my office and Penn Station was definitely loaded with all kinds of sketchy characters. Lots of storefronts empty. Definitely had that post-apocalyptic feeling. Heard its getting better but I have zero desire to take a train into NYC again.


Soon it will be the real world equivalent of "Escape From New York".

Kurt Russell as Snake Plissken one of my favorite action heroes ever!


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## Killingtime (Mar 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Soon it will be the real world equivalent of "Escape From New York".
> 
> Kurt Russell as Snake Plissken one of my favorite action heroes ever!


I'm getting out my eye patch right now


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

abc said:


> ???


Mask wearing in Asia didn't work well in Wuhan.


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> I'm getting out my eye patch right now


And for the record..Snake Plissken is NOT dead


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Mask wearing in Asia didn't work well in Wuhan.


What do you mean "didn't work well"? 

How do you know how it might have been without mask? How much worse it might have been?


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> Same with LIRR. Had to go to 35th & 5th a few months ago to get something from my office and Penn Station was definitely loaded with all kinds of sketchy characters. Lots of storefronts empty. Definitely had that post-apocalyptic feeling. Heard its getting better but *I have zero desire to take a train into NYC again.*


I'll let you know after Monday. I'm taking the train into the city. 

Yes, first time since the pandemic. 

(My Mom had used the subway recently. Didn't report any creepiness or being scared)


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Getting back to kingslug's point, then you also agree that COVID is here to stay.


Totally! No doubt about it. There's no putting that genie back into the bottle. 

Or you could ask Dr. Fauci. Even he say it's here to stay, who am I to think otherwise? Or, who is stupid enough to WISH otherwise?

But people will have immunity. So it won't be scary like a year ago.


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## Domeskier (Mar 25, 2021)

abc said:


> What do you mean "didn't work well"?
> 
> How do you know how it might have been without mask? How much worse it might have been?


I would further add that mask wearing in Asia pre-pandemic was hardly universal and had more to do with air pollution and, in many cases, avoiding the sun.  I was in multiple Asian countries last January when reports of the outbreak started and, even then, I did not notice an up-tick in people wearing masks.


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## Harvey (Mar 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Time to buy some narcostocks!


If you have a 401k, you probably already own them.


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## rebel1916 (Mar 25, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, its the shadiest line in my opinion. my luck has been fine, but my gf was privy to a stabbing, and someone pulling a gun to threaten someone else with, in separate incidents, both pre-covid. now she says the train is just sort of desolate and there's a good chance you get on a car alone with an unstable character. not good. and we ride the train from high street brooklyn bridge one stop to fulton street. one bougie area to one major transit hub. the ends of the A train line are probably straight up scary.


I rode the A train in late 2019 for the first time post Bloomberg. There was shit, vomit and racist ranting. It felt just like 1993. I rode it a few months ago again at 8pm or so. It felt really sketchy and desolate. I was uncomfortable and I had a gun.


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## mbedle (Mar 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Oregon is considering making mask wearing permanent.
> 
> And one of the pharmacartel CEO's has come out and said that COVID vaccination will be a yearly or semiannual ritual.
> 
> Time to buy some narcostocks!


You are wrong about the Oregon thing.


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## Pez (Mar 26, 2021)

NYC sounds terrible.


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## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

It is.......................but they pay you a lot to deal with it.


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## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It is.......................but they pay you a lot to deal with it.


and ....... charge you a lot for the experience


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

I'm sure my mind would have been blown visiting NYC last summer when everything was shut down.  I used to visit NYC a lot in the 90s for Grateful Dead and Phish shows.  I basically stopped going after 9/11 as I lost my college roommate in the World Trade Center attack.  I went once to the site of the rubble in summer 2002 and just really didn't want to go back.  Went once in 2009 for a work event, but that was it.

Fast forward to last Valentine's Day weekend and I took my wife to the city for a Ween show.  We had a blast and just loved walking around through the streets, Central Park, ate at a bunch of good restaurants.  It renewed my appreciation for the place.  It's just such a more international city than anywhere else in the country.  You just marvel at all the different kinds of people and the amount of energy.  

One month later the whole world stopped.

 I can't really imagine what it was like totally quiet.  I spent a ton of time in Boston last summer, which was also eerily quiet, but the drop off I'm sure paled in comparison to Manhattan.  

I wouldn't want to live in NYC. Way too crowded for day to day life.  Even Boston is for my tastes.  But, I do hope it comes back exactly as it was. Very special city.   If and when it does, I'll be a much more regular visitor again after our fun there in February 2020.


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## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

Totally..its taken its toll in the 25 years...hope I can last another 5 and get out.
The 6 years I spent starting up and running the new World Trade Center aged me...oh..about 100 years.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It is.......................but they pay you a lot to deal with it.





Smellytele said:


> and ....... charge you a lot for the experience


The two are related. Because people can pay: "the fair price is whatever the market could bear".

It's now cheaper. But many may not want to "deal with it". My physical therapist I met from the hospital rehab center just started her own PT business, her office right next to Grand Central. The rent for the office is so much cheaper now, she said it's the best time to start. 

Amidst the talks of doom and gloom in the media (& social media), there's opportunity. But we don't hear about them too much because the people who're taking the initiative are too busy working than blabbing about it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

manhattan kind of sucks to live, but brooklyn is incredible, and despite my own tales of the subway in this thread, there is no better urban environment in the world than new york city if you are into that sort of thing. on any given night pre-covid i could eat at the best restaurants in the world, casually take in world class art in all mediums, see the best musicians or comedians or actors in the world perform, and interact with interesting people from all over the world. and just about every non winter ski weekend that is exactly what we would do. and its home and will always be, no matter where i end up living.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure my mind would have been blown visiting NYC last summer when everything was shut down.  I used to visit NYC a lot in the 90s for Grateful Dead and Phish shows.  I basically stopped going after 9/11 as I lost my college roommate in the World Trade Center attack.  I went once to the site of the rubble in summer 2002 and just really didn't want to go back.  Went once in 2009 for a work event, but that was it.
> 
> Fast forward to last Valentine's Day weekend and I took my wife to the city for a Ween show.  We had a blast and just loved walking around through the streets, Central Park, ate at a bunch of good restaurants.  It renewed my appreciation for the place.  It's just such a more international city than anywhere else in the country.  You just marvel at all the different kinds of people and the amount of energy.
> 
> ...



in my experience boston downtown gets very quiet at night. the financial district of nyc does too i guess. but nyc really does 'never sleep', and it slept last spring. and it was weird. silence and ambulance sirens.


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## drjeff (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> manhattan kind of sucks to live, but brooklyn is incredible, and despite my own tales of the subway in this thread, there is no better urban environment in the world than new york city if you are into that sort of thing. on any given night pre-covid i could eat at the best restaurants in the world, casually take in world class art in all mediums, see the best musicians or comedians or actors in the world perform, and interact with interesting people from all over the world. and just about every non winter ski weekend that is exactly what we would do. and its home and will always be, no matter where i end up living.



Serious question for you..... Do you think that the overall environment (restaurants, entertainment options, people interaction) will get back to "normal" after COVID? If not, what percentage of "normal" do you think and how long will it take?

And as an FYI, the Brooklyn I live in (CT, not NY   ) we're back to probably 85-90% of "normal" now, especially since as of last week restaurants can now go back to 100% of capacity (both indoors and outdoors) and short of what I arguably think is the best ice cream shop in my town that is still only doing car side service rather than walking into the shop to get your frozen treat, as long as you have your mask on while moving around an establishment, it feels pretty "normal" again. Granted, my Brooklyn has almost as many head of dairy cattle as people who live in it, and our "cultural options" are slightly less than in your Brooklyn


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

its a good question. anecdotally, the past few sunny weekends have been booming. i have been skiing, but reports are of almost normal levels of activity in the streets, parks, outdoor restaurants. i think after we get vaccinated (and nyc is going to have near 100% compliance except for fucked staten island and bensonhurst), things are going to really pop. there's a pent up demand everywhere, but especially here where people are just used to this hyper socialized existence. the people who fled the city for the most part were the most moneyed people, and i didn't really miss them. the younger and more vital people stayed. despite the high cost of living, not everyone in nyc can afford to snatch up property in the hudson valley and vermont sight unseen and just leave. i like to think that covid is just one event in a long history of cyclical change in new york. i'm only 35, but my parents are from sheepshead bay and i know all about nyc in the 70s and 80s, and how the 90s and 00s were a polar opposite of that. we are not at 70s-80s levels right now - not even close. but the contraction breeds life. businesses turn over. rents go down residentially and commercially. room is opened up for a new generation of entrepreneurs, artists, students, and residents. barring massive physical destruction and sea level rise, this town isn't going anywhere.

also, outdoor dining is lovely in general. parts of nyc feel almost like piazzas in italy. i have only indulged ~3 times all year, but its apparently here to stay, and that's a pretty nice new thing. some of the outdoor set ups are super legit. others look like shantytowns. i hope the city eventually puts some parameters in place so its not a bunch of plywood. but in general i dig the concept.


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## LonghornSkier (Mar 26, 2021)

Maybe I have my head in the sand, but I don’t really think NYC is as bad as everyone is saying right now... I ride the subway nearly every day and haven’t had major issues. Yes, there have been a few high profile shovings lately, but subway crime is well, well below 1970/1980’s levels which you wouldn’t guess from reading this thread... More people have died in car crashes in CT in the last month than people have died from subway violence in the past year. Sure, if I take the 3 train to New Lots Ave and go walk around Brownsville at 1AM, I’d see some shit. But using it to get around Manhattan below 96th st (or 110 on the west side)/North Brooklyn/Astoria/etc at reasonable hours... Nothing to worry about at all.

Rental (and sale prices) are back on the increase, I see green shoots of new businesses opening up, and I just ate at The Musket Room last night and it was packed.


I was in Dallas (where I’ve lived before) in January and despite “everyone moving there,” the urban environment in NY far, far exceeds anything you can find in Dallas, if that’s what you’re into...

As I said in another thread, the city (Midtown especially) faces challenges, but get away from Penn Station and the crackheads (that have always been there-there’s just less commuters to disguise them now) and I think you’ll see that there’s still a lot going on.. I’d recommend hanging out on Vanderbilt Ave in Prospect Heights once open streets starts back up again for the flavor that I’m referring to...


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

Vanderbilt has been so nice! Last summer they completely closed it to cars. That is specifically what I was referring to re:Italian piazza vibes. Vanderbilt from Atlantic Avenue to grand army plaza, bustling outdoor dining and drinking scene. Will be so awesome post threat of deadly virus


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 26, 2021)

I'm not sure I could be a city dweller permanently, but I do like visiting for several days.  I also like to rent apartments in neighborhoods as you get a better feel for the city that way.  Best trip I ever did was for the Ween shows in April 2016.  I think we did 5 days in the city and walked almost everywhere.  

Having spent time in Dallas and NYC Dallas is super lame compared to NYC  The downtown didn't seem vibrant at all. Yes there were some parts that were happening, but by and large it seemed sterile.  Austin is where its at in Texas, I have also heard good things about San Antonio but haven't been there as an adult.


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## LonghornSkier (Mar 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not sure I could be a city dweller permanently, but I do like visiting for several days.  I also like to rent apartments in neighborhoods as you get a better feel for the city that way.  Best trip I ever did was for the Ween shows in April 2016.  I think we did 5 days in the city and walked almost everywhere.
> 
> Having spent time in Dallas and NYC Dallas is super lame compared to NYC  The downtown didn't seem vibrant at all. Yes there were some parts that were happening, but by and large it seemed sterile.  Austin is where its at in Texas, I have also heard good things about San Antonio but haven't been there as an adult.


Yeah, Dallas has some good neighborhoods (M Streets, Bishop Arts), but downtown isn’t one of them. 

Austin is great (as my username would suggest) but for someone who like cultural amenities, I’d suggest Houston. Best dining scene, best arts, most ethnically diverse, great medicine/healthcare... But it’s ugly and too hot for me.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

ive never been, but houston seems like a city of strip malls. strip malls with fire asian and african cuisine.


----------



## LonghornSkier (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ive never been, but houston seems like a city of strip malls. strip malls with fire asian and african cuisine.


That describes it pretty well..


----------



## JimG. (Mar 26, 2021)

mbedle said:


> You are wrong about the Oregon thing.


So what you are saying is that I read some fake news.

Not surprising I should remember to not quote anything I read in the media, the den of lying.


----------



## ss20 (Mar 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> So what you are saying is that I read some fake news.
> 
> Not surprising I should remember to not quote anything I read in the media, the den of lying.



You're both kinda right.  It would be a permanent ban in that masks are "permanent" until the law is repealed.


----------



## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> also, outdoor dining is lovely in general. parts of nyc feel almost like piazzas in italy. i have only indulged ~3 times all year, but its apparently here to stay, and that's a pretty nice new thing. some of the outdoor set ups are super legit. others look like shantytowns. i hope the city eventually puts some parameters in place so its not a bunch of plywood. but in general i dig the concept.


I agree 1000%! I totally dig outdoor dining!

In fact, I dig car-free streets where people eat outside. We should have had that in NYC long ago. It took a pandemic to see it coming. Hope this is one change that becomes permanent! 



drjeff said:


> he Brooklyn I live in (CT, not NY  ) we're back to probably 85-90% of "normal" now,


It's similar in NYC in the restaurant businesses, at least in the residential neighborhood. Probably still down in the financial district though.

(Also with Broadway (and many of the musical venues) still dark, it's nowhere nearly "back to normal". )

But a friend who's an economist (not an internet one, this one from a major Bank) pointed out. The 15-24% business who didn't re-open are probably the more financially shaky ones. So their demise open up rooms for new entrance of new ideas. Of the existing businesses, those on solid footings will come back stronger. Commercial rents are dropping, which should help both existing and new businesses too. (Like my friend the physical therapist who took advantage of the lower rent to open up her new office in Midtown)


----------



## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

I do hope NYC gets back to at least 75% of normal. I think if I didn't work here I would visit it more. Our ski club has monthly happy hours here..which will start up soon I hope.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> in my experience boston downtown gets very quiet at night. the financial district of nyc does too i guess. but nyc really does 'never sleep', and it slept last spring. and it was weird. silence and ambulance sirens.



Boston goes to bed by 1.  Bars are open until 2, but so much of the public transit shuts down at 1, that the later last call doesn't matter.  At one point they had talked about keeping the T open until 3 to make Boston more attractive and like international cities that keep the lights on later, but ultimately the city is just too small and wouldn't have the riders needed to go later.  Also plenty of lame folks scoffed at the idea of more late night noise.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

NYC 4 AM...a very interesting place.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

try a warehouse techno party in deep bushwick that starts at 5 AM sometime


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not sure I could be a city dweller permanently, but I do like visiting for several days.  I also like to rent apartments in neighborhoods as you get a better feel for the city that way.  Best trip I ever did was for the Ween shows in April 2016.  I think we did 5 days in the city and walked almost everywhere.
> 
> Having spent time in Dallas and NYC Dallas is super lame compared to NYC  The downtown didn't seem vibrant at all. Yes there were some parts that were happening, but by and large it seemed sterile.  Austin is where its at in Texas, I have also heard good things about San Antonio but haven't been there as an adult.



I am on the same page!  Visiting is ok but living there would not work.  I prefer nature - mountains, oceans, forests, vistas.  We moved from Colorado to Boston Metro. My wife likes walking around Boston where the idea came from.  Living here now and we find that we miss Colorado and will go back.  Our dogs are freaked out by city sounds like all traffic noise, sirens, trains etc.  They are also freaked out by all the people.  And that was just walking by the Charles River.

My activities do not lend themselves to city living either.  I mean they can all be done by traveling outside of the city but we want to be closer to where we play.

We used to go into NYC as tourists but we always stuck to the touristy areas.  There is probably more to NYC than meets the eye for most.  We find Boston to be a better walking city.


----------



## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We find Boston to be a better walking city.


If by that you mean you don't have to push people away to get through, you're quite right!  

(I worked AT Time Square for a year. I was shocked by the crowd level, day and night Had to actually push people to get out EVERYDAY. Even though I've lived in Midtown for a couple decade, that was unreal)


----------



## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

I tried to live there for 2 years in West Harlem...did not work out well.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I have problems comprehending why booting up at the car is an issue


Because the ground is dirty. Because it's colder.  Because I don't like walking far in ski boots.

I understand these may not be problems for you, but I find it hard to comprehend that you don't understand that some other people feel that way.

After booting up in our car all season, on our last day skiing we tried the "boot up tent" at one place - this was a heated tent with benches and shelves to store stuff.  So much better for us - faster and more comfortable than booting up at the car.  Even the heat was perfect - about 45F while it was 25F outside and 60 or 65F in the lodge. No wind like doing it at the car. 

I hope that continues post-covid, even if booting up in the lodge is allowed.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 4, 2021)

Zand said:


> It's not a restaurant, it's a ski lodge. And for the record, in 22 years of skiing including being at places like Wachusett, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc on holidays, I have never once had to stand to eat food so cut the bullshit.
> 
> The sense of entitlement and selfishness in this thread is fucking mind boggling.



I had to sit on the floor with my son to eat during a busy weekend at a ski resort in Pennsylvania. The lodge was packed including with non skiers.  We did not see any clear two seats near each other.  Eventually some people got up and we took their spots.  If it had been just me I would have eaten at a different time, but he was six years old and hungry.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 4, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> BS. Skiing is still a high impact sport for knees and other joints. If a walk across a parking lot is too much for someone they should probably think about less impactful activities, or I would at least.


High impact? Not on easy groomed runs with good technique and soft skis. It can be less than walking in ski boots.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 4, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> High impact? Not on easy groomed runs with good technique and soft skis. It can be less than walking in ski boots.


If you have good technique you drive your skis by bending your knees, weighting, unweighting etc. it’s pretty high impact on your joints. Sure, what you describe isn’t as high impact as smashing bumps and hucking cliffs but don’t kid yourself, the repetitive motions it takes to bend a ski and make it turn the way it’s designed to isn’t easy on the old carcass either.

if someone can’t handle walking a few hundred feet in their ski boots it’s probably time to hang em up. Do some gardening or something else.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 4, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Because the ground is dirty. Because it's colder.  Because I don't like walking far in ski boots.
> 
> I understand these may not be problems for you, but I find it hard to comprehend that you don't understand that some other people feel that way.
> 
> ...


It takes like a minute to put my boots on standing next to my car. That’s hard for you? Like........why? How? Are your hands broken? I’m seriously confused by all of this.

Its colder? The ground is dirty? Your palms must be as soft as a kitten.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 5, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> If you have good technique you drive your skis by bending your knees, weighting, unweighting etc. it’s pretty high impact on your joints. Sure, what you describe isn’t as high impact as smashing bumps and hucking cliffs but don’t kid yourself, the repetitive motions it takes to bend a ski and make it turn the way it’s designed to isn’t easy on the old carcass either.


You don't have to "drive" or even bend much (and bending isn't the same as impact BTW), especially if the ski is soft. You can just shift your weight in a chill way if you want, especially on soft skis.  Which is different than the *impact* of walking with boots on the ground.  

But keep digging - kiing is only the way you do it. Tell everyone they really have to drive that ski - that's the only way to be on the hill. Otherwise they shouldn't be skiing. You know it all. Thanks. You're a smart guy. Thanks.


raisingarizona said:


> It takes like a minute to put my boots on standing next to my car. That’s hard for you? Like........why? How? Are your hands broken? I’m seriously confused by all of this.
> 
> Its colder? The ground is dirty? Your palms must be as soft as a kitten.


You really can't *understand* why some people prefer to change in the lodge.  

I mean, there are plenty of things I don't like myself but at least I can understand why other people do them. To each his own.

But other people having different preferences *confuses* you?  Wow: that's quite an admission of lack of ability to think beyond your own simple ideas. Wow.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 5, 2021)

Just another reason I have AT boots..you can walk for miles in them. Some parking lots do turn into mud pits and that sux a bit..a small astro turf mat would help that. 
I havent minded booting up in the car at all this year..Certainly less crowded in my truck than the lodge.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 5, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> You don't have to "drive" or even bend much (and bending isn't the same as impact BTW), especially if the ski is soft. You can just shift your weight in a chill way if you want, especially on soft skis.  Which is different than the *impact* of walking with boots on the ground.
> 
> But keep digging - kiing is only the way you do it. Tell everyone they really have to drive that ski - that's the only way to be on the hill. Otherwise they shouldn't be skiing. You know it all. Thanks. You're a smart guy. Thanks.
> You really can't *understand* why some people prefer to change in the lodge.
> ...


Hey, you can cheat your turns all day or sideslip the whole run if that’s your thing but don’t kid yourself, that’s not good technique and you aren’t using the ski the way it was designed to be.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 5, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Just another reason I have AT boots..you can walk for miles in them. Some parking lots do turn into mud pits and that sux a bit..a small astro turf mat would help that.
> I havent minded booting up in the car at all this year..Certainly less crowded in my truck than the lodge.


Even a lot of regular alpine boots have walk mode.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 5, 2021)

A long time ago I stopped evaluating what people thought or did for norms while skiing.  Based on your experiences, your perfect day or how you operate your day can be so different then mine.  I have on many occasions, shook my head when people told me what they thought was "Awesome".  Things that I would never do or would assume was something on one did.  But for some people that is the way you do it.  It all comes down to the evolution of what you and your group or family have come to realize as your norm.  It's not my job to harsh your stoke.  I just may not join you and I will see you on the lift.  That is all.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Even a lot of regular alpine boots have walk mode.


Ah...but mine have lugged vibram soles ....makes stairs a lot easier as well.


----------



## kbroderick (Apr 5, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Ah...but mine have lugged vibram soles ....makes stairs a lot easier as well.


Yeah, but bootskiing gets super-challenging.


----------



## kbroderick (Apr 5, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Hey, you can cheat your turns all day or sideslip the whole run if that’s your thing but don’t kid yourself, that’s not good technique and you aren’t using the ski the way it was designed to be.


The better you are, the less aggressive movement you need to get the ski to bend. One of the coaches I work with has multiple replacement joints (I forget whether it's two knees and one hip, two hips and one knee, or whether it was three hip surgeries and two knees because one of the hips didn't work right the first time...but let's just say he doesn't have a lot of original parts left); he moves very, very little relative to his skis, but he can still arc 'em. His skiing seems static, but in reality, it's just very, very precisely balanced.

In general, he can ski groomers quite a bit without being too beat up at the end of the day; however, getting into trees or bumps is a different story. His technique is simply refined enough that he can be very, very efficient most of the time.

And FWIW, while he can walk in ski boots, he's not a big fan of doing so.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 5, 2021)

If you're getting down the hill and still having fun, what does it matter if you're using your skis as intended?  Someone with a bum knee obviously isn't aspiring to be the best skier on the mountain.  If they've found a low stress, low impact way to enjoy recreational skiing, good for them.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 5, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> If you're getting down the hill and still having fun, what does it matter if you're using your skis as intended?  Someone with a bum knee obviously isn't aspiring to be the best skier on the mountain.  If they've found a low stress, low impact way to enjoy recreational skiing, good for them.


I don’t think anyone said that there’s anything wrong with intermediate level recreational skiing. Those folks keep the lights on but if we are going to talk about good technique and the long term affects that skiing has on our bodies as mentioned the conversation takes a turn.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 5, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t think anyone said that there’s anything wrong with intermediate level recreational skiing. Those folks keep the lights on but if we are going to talk about good technique and the long term affects that skiing has on our bodies as mentioned the conversation takes a turn.


And to further that point, even if you’ve found some low impact way to get down the hill all it takes is a patch of ice or unnoticed bump and those knees are toast. I think people are saying if your knees are in such bad of shape that its painful to walk to a ski lift maybe the act of skiing isn’t very sustainable either.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 5, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> And to further that point, even if you’ve found some low impact way to get down the hill all it takes is a patch of ice or unnoticed bump and those knees are toast. I think people are saying if your knees are in such bad of shape that its painful to walk to a ski lift maybe the act of skiing isn’t very sustainable either.


That was what I was getting aat with my original post which turned into a few melt downs from the more sensitive folks.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 5, 2021)

Booting up in the parking lot has been a hot topic all over the place for the Northeast.  Our west, it seems like most people boot up in the parking lot. Having lived there for 5 years, we even got into the habit.  We used to carry transpacks with all out stuff and change in the lodge.  But it was always a hassle with where to put bags.  During our first season in CO we switched and we found that is was easier for us.  I know it is not for everyone.  But We liked the idea of going from the car to the lift and vise versa.

When you consider how much time is spent in your boots and walking around in them when stopping for lunch or taking a break, the time and distance related to the parking lot is minimal.  As far as mud is concerned, I get that!  Some people are pretty particular about cleanliness.  We have dogs and cleaning up is part of the deal so mud has never been a concern either.

When we had visitors out west they always complained about booting up at the car.  And we thought it was funny how people complained about booting up at the care but would be particular about other covid rules.

Heck I remember the final days of skiing at Killington where to walked on and off the lift and trekked through mud to get you run in.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 5, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> And to further that point, even if you’ve found some low impact way to get down the hill all it takes is a patch of ice or unnoticed bump and those knees are toast. I think people are saying if your knees are in such bad of shape that its painful to walk to a ski lift maybe the act of skiing isn’t very sustainable either.


All we know about this guy is that walking in ski boots causes his knees to hurt but skiing doesn't.  Anyone can hit a patch of ice, catch an edge or fall the wrong way and destroy a knee.  That's an inherent risk of the sport.  Maybe his risk of sustaining a knee injury is higher then average, maybe not.  That's something for him and his doctor to decide, not armchair orthopedists on an anonymous internet message board.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Booting up in the parking lot has been a hot topic all over the place for the Northeast.  Our west, it seems like most people boot up in the parking lot. Having lived there for 5 years, we even got into the habit.  We used to carry transpacks with all out stuff and change in the lodge.  But it was always a hassle with where to put bags.  During our first season in CO we switched and we found that is was easier for us.  I know it is not for everyone.  But We liked the idea of going from the car to the lift and vise versa.
> 
> When you consider how much time is spent in your boots and walking around in them when stopping for lunch or taking a break, the time and distance related to the parking lot is minimal.  As far as mud is concerned, I get that!  Some people are pretty particular about cleanliness.  We have dogs and cleaning up is part of the deal so mud has never been a concern either.
> 
> ...



It's been discussed at length in this thread already...but many have pointed out most of your days in CO it's bluebird, minimal wind, and 25-35 degrees at 9am when you're booting up.  You will not have many of those days back East before St. Patty's day.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 5, 2021)

I have to say I really have no skin in this booting up at the car deal.  I am a long time pass holder at sugarbush and aside from this year, I only boot up at the car for early ups.  Basically once there is snow I ski over to the lift from my place.  Or I park and walk up, boot up at the lodge so I can have my shoes and change of clothes if necessary in the lodge for Apre ski.  That is what makes the spring season so special for me.  The end of the day, sitting in the plaza, walking in and out of Castlerock and Rumbles for beers, listening to live music with all of my friends and the regulars.  It is what makes that place so special.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 6, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> That was what I was getting aat with my original post which turned into a few melt downs from the more sensitive folks.


It's wild that you feel you can tell other people what they should and shouldn't do or even what they should and shouldn't like,  but other people objecting to that are the sensitive ones.  It's funny.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 7, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> It's wild that you feel you can tell other people what they should and shouldn't do or even what they should and shouldn't like,  but other people objecting to that are the sensitive ones.  It's funny.


Ha! Nope. I’m not telling you or anyone what to do. I could care less. please don’t be more dramatic than necessary, that’s just annoying.

There’s plenty of lodges that offer lockers and a changing area. That’s great. My gripe is with lodge campers when there’s paying customers that are left without a place to sit and eat their food. Other than that I was simply curious what the heck the big deal is with booting up at the car. I just don’t understand it. I’ll admit, I live 20 minutes from my home hill so I don’t do a full change into my gear. I also live in the sunny south west so the weather is often pretty darn mild but I boot up at my car even when it’s snowing sideways with no issues. I can see it being more of a production with longer drives but I’m still struggling to understand the “sky is falling now that I have to boot up at my car” crowd. I mean, it seems like it would add a whole other big step to getting to the skiing.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> please don’t be more dramatic than necessary, that’s just annoying.





raisingarizona said:


> “sky is falling now that I have to boot up at my car”





raisingarizona said:


> few melt downs from the more sensitive folks


I'm dramatic? You put exaggerated words into my mouth ("sky is falling") and say that people pushing back at you are having "meltdowns"?  You told some guy he was, in effect, either lying/delusional about his own body or should quit the sport.  And you think I'm annoying?

Look in the mirror.




raisingarizona said:


> I was simply curious what the heck the big deal is with booting up at the car. I just don’t understand it.


If you were actually curious you'd accept what's been written and recognize that other might people have different preferences than you do. Instead you denied and dismissed clear statements of why some of us prefer the lodge.   And I didn't even say "big deal" or anything close (so please, *you* stop with the drama) - I prefer the lodge, but booted up at my car all but one time this season.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 7, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> I'm dramatic? You put exaggerated words into my mouth ("sky is falling") and say that people pushing back at you are having "meltdowns"?  You told some guy he was, in effect, either lying/delusional about his own body or should quit the sport.  And you think I'm annoying?
> 
> Look in the mirror.
> 
> ...


Ok. You win. Feel better?


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Ok. You win. Feel better?


It's not about winning - it's about recognizing that different people like different things. If you've actually come around to understand that, that's progress. Congratulations.


----------



## abc (Apr 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Ok. You win. Feel better?


I gone away for a week and came back to see the same guy still trying to defend & "justify" the same insult he made a week ago. How sad.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 7, 2021)

The two of you are such drama queens!
Do you guys ski together and work on that technique? Bahaha!


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 8, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> drama queens!





raisingarizona said:


> such a puss



Noting the gendered nature of the two insults ("jokes"?) you've thrown in the last day.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 8, 2021)

I think mask wearing will be continued at ski resorts - oh wait it was a thing before Covid


----------



## JimG. (Apr 8, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Noting the gendered nature of the two insults ("jokes"?) you've thrown in the last day.


Same jt1000 from NYSkiblog. 

I remember your reaction to a discussion of transmissions. 

Please keep it light so we don't have to lock this thread like over there.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 8, 2021)

Imagine if we start talking about...rears....oh boy...


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 8, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Same jt1000 from NYSkiblog.
> 
> I remember your reaction to a discussion of transmissions.
> 
> Please keep it light so we don't have to lock this thread like over there.


So people can hurl insults at me and I shouldn't sharply call it out? Mentioning gendered insults is not light enough but being called a drama queen is OK?

Got it. Thanks.


----------



## urungus (Apr 8, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Same jt1000 from NYSkiblog.
> 
> I remember your reaction to a discussion of transmissions.
> 
> Please keep it light so we don't have to lock this thread like over there.



Disappointing response, blaming the person who calls out the objectionable behavior rather than the perpetrator.  No wonder there are so few women on this board.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 8, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> So people can hurl insults at me and I shouldn't sharply call it out? Mentioning gendered insults is not light enough but being called a drama queen is OK?
> 
> Got it. Thanks.


I've nicely asked you to keep it light.

I won't ask again.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 8, 2021)

urungus said:


> Disappointing response, blaming the person who calls out the objectionable behavior rather than the perpetrator.  No wonder there are so few women on this board.


You don't know the facts here. jt1000 ran roughshod on a NYSkiblog thread and Harvey was forced to lock it.

I don't care who is right or wrong that's not my place as a moderator and this isn't a courtroom.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 8, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You don't know the facts here. jt1000 ran roughshod on a NYSkiblog thread and Harvey was forced to lock it.


No, read that thread from my first comment. I made a request (with the word "please") to avoid a word that in other contexts is a slur (making clear that it was not intended that way in the post).  Well a bunch of dudes were TRIGGERED for being asked to be considerate. They flipped out. I was trying to "police" them and should shut up.  Finally the moderator came in and said something reasonable to the people ragging on me ("If you are dismayed, let it go"). 

Sure......I ran rough-shod over six guys who can't handle someone asking them to avoid a word. LOL.

This is relevant:





			
				urungus said:
			
		

> No wonder there are so few women on this board.



So JimG - if you want a forum where people should not call out non-inclusive language in an insult, fine. Keep it bro-friendly and ban me. 

I've been warned. Your site.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 8, 2021)

Let’s cancel JimG!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 8, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Noting the gendered nature of the two insults ("jokes"?) you've thrown in the last day.


your vagina is showing

sincerely,
gendered insult.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 8, 2021)

Yup..end of ski season is here


----------



## cdskier (Apr 8, 2021)

So a new member on the board doesn't like others telling people where they should boot up and thinks it is wrong for someone to tell others what to do, but then a few posts later goes on to tell others what words are acceptable to use in an insult?


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 8, 2021)

cdskier said:


> So a new member on the board doesn't like others telling people where they should boot up and thinks it is wrong for someone to tell others what to do, but then a few posts later goes on to tell others what words are acceptable to use in an insult?


For all I know those words *are* acceptable here. I sure didn't say they're not - I noted them as gendered. If that being pointed out bothers you, perhaps think about why that is.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 8, 2021)

Stop the childish Whining

Move on


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 8, 2021)

Lets just hope that there is not a variant that enforces the new change for behavior.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 8, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Stop the childish Whining



Please ensure that your reprimands are more age-inclusive next time.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 8, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Please ensure that your reprimands are more age-inclusive next time.


Ha Ha
OK   - Stop sounding like a bunch of Grumpy Old Men

Better ?  
Like I really care


----------



## abc (Apr 9, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> So JimG - if you want a forum where people should not call out non-inclusive language in an insult, fine. Keep it bro-friendly and ban me.
> 
> I've been warned. Your site.


As a long time yet disgruntled member here, here's my perspective.

1) it's not JimG's site. Nick is the owner. He gets to profit (and lose) from the site. Jim is just a moderator. Not sure what he gets for his trouble. Probable not a whole lot if it's anything like most other internet forum moderators. Not my business anyway. So not exactly "his site". 

2) The site was seriously neglected the last few years (constantly down even in the middle of the season). So a lot of the regular posters had left. Only the "bro" stayed on to insult each other with no regard to the purpose (or health) of the site. 

(Someone mentioned my posting had changed over the past few years. That's in keeping with the changed tone of the board. No consciously but just being frustrated, probably like the rest of the disgruntle gang)

Starting this season, the site is finally staying up and I see many new members joining, especially when the site went to the new host. I was hoping the new members would dilute the constant barrage of insults with more ski related posts. It did to a small degree, just not enough to completely cover up the ugliness. 

By reprimanding the "snow flakes", moderators set the standard of what to expect in behavior. So I'm giving up my hope this site goes back to a ski-centric site with the infusion of polite new members. It's likely only the combative new members stay while the rest leave. 

10 years ago, I thought TGR was too rowdy and didn't participate. Now, I feel TGR is positively polite compared to alpinezone.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

Not into internet combat..but I'm staying. This stuff happens everywhere and since a lot of people work from home now and don't see real people much..its happening in the work environment as well. Instead of a person..you become words on a computer screen.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2021)

ABC

Your memory is cloudy.  This site was FAR more abrasive in the past.  

Hell, one former member started his own site, "No Shit Zone" because we weren't allowing enough poo flinging.  

Given the upheaval this Pandemic has caused in a number of areas of life, I'm surprised there haven't been even harsher dialogue this past year with people on edge the way they are.  It's been pretty tame all things considered.

Generally speaking we have always allowed for the vast majority of moderating to be done by the members with a few "famous" exceptions that lead to banned members.


----------



## Edd (Apr 9, 2021)

Also, I used to go to TGR pretty regularly. At no point since I’ve been on AZ has it been more hostile than TGR, IMO. But, I haven’t been to TGR in a few years so not sure of its current state.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> Also, I used to go to TGR pretty regularly. At no point since I’ve been on AZ has it been more hostile than TGR, IMO. But, I haven’t been to TGR in a few years so not sure of its current state.


Nothing to do with hostility or skiing but todays the 52nd anniversary of Nashville Skyline, such a great album.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Generally speaking we have always allowed for the vast majority of moderating to be done by the members with a few "famous" exceptions that lead to banned members.


Hmmmm.  I guess that's why this is cool here, in this thread:


> your vagina is showing


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 9, 2021)

its not only showing, it's bleeding.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 9, 2021)

I think the unwritten rule is “Don’t make work for the moderators”  They aren’t paid as far as I know.

TGR is definitely more hostile. The first post I had F bombs on me for asking when the East coast’s thread was customarily started.
So stop whining.


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 9, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Noting the gendered nature of the two insults ("jokes"?) you've thrown in the last day.


Awe......sad face


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 9, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> For all I know those words *are* acceptable here. I sure didn't say they're not - I noted them as gendered. If that being pointed out bothers you, perhaps think about why that is.


Oh ffs.....I remember you now


----------



## snoseek (Apr 9, 2021)

If this was TGR you be nagged to post naked picks of your sister. Its not so bad here sometimes, if you dont like it feel free to bounce. People on this board should get out together more, catch a proper buzz, ski/board and post some fucking stoke. I've skied with alot of different members over the years...all different types and not one asshole yet but behind your keyboards its a whole different story


----------



## PAabe (Apr 9, 2021)

IMO as a noob on this site, is a whole lot better than reddit at least, and seemed to be better than TGR, although definitely rowdier than the more localized east coast forums.  Well, paskiandride is definitely not PG but at least there aren't serious personal attacks there.  Home of mr. GrilledSteezeSandwhich, what a guy.

Highest quality northeast intel here.

I like reading the Northeast trip reports but there haven't seemed to have been that many


----------



## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

No one really gets into reports here..we tend to post limited condition reports on the main threads..
And comparing this to tgr...really..i dont think so...


----------



## abc (Apr 9, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I like reading the Northeast trip reports but there haven't seemed to have been that many


That's about THE ONLY reason I'm on this board!

But, ever since those long running threads got going, there're a lot fewer trip reports posted. "Regulars" just jog a few lines in those forever threads.

However, to find the intel, you'll have to wade through all sort of "stuff" in those individual resort threads.

It's another reason I felt the site is less valuable now.

But as a wasteland to blow off steam, it's entertainment value is high.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> So JimG - if you want a forum where people should not call out* non-inclusive language* in an insult, fine. Keep it bro-friendly and *ban me. *I've been warned. Your site.


 Were it my forum anyone childish enough to use the term, _"non-inclusive language"_, in a non-ironic fashion, would get banned.


----------



## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

Speaking of permanent changes, I'm getting concerned that I will not be able to drive to the slopes in a car with an manual tranny, when my current Subaru dies.  Seems like automatic trannies, or worse, CVT trannies are all that's available anymore.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 11, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> tranny





rebel1916 said:


> automatic trannies





rebel1916 said:


> or worse, CVT trannies


Watch out with that non inclusive language.


----------



## jt10000 (Apr 11, 2021)

It's funny how some guys think talking shit shows how tough they are, when it really shows their insecurity.


----------



## x10003q (Apr 11, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> It's funny how some guys think talking shit shows how tough they are, when it really shows their insecurity.


I think you have bigger fish to fry. These forums are all using the word tranny:





						Transmission Rebuilders Network International & Transmission Repairs | TRNi
					

Transmission Rebuilder, Transmission Rebuilders, The Leading Provider of OEM & proprietary data to Automotive and Transmission Repair Professional, with a network of over 1200 transmission professionals working together




					www.trannybuilder.com
				











						Automotive Transmission Forum
					

Professional automotive forum for discussion of system analysis, diagnosis, and repair of vehicle transmissions, transaxles, and drivetrains.




					www.iatn.net
				







__





						Transmission Forum
					

For discussing problems with transmissions




					batauto.com
				







__





						Transmission - Index page
					





					forum.transmissionbt.com
				











						Automatic Transmission Forum
					

Technical discussion forum for all issues regarding automatic transmissions..




					www.vwvortex.com


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 11, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> Speaking of permanent changes, I'm getting concerned that I will not be able to drive to the slopes in a car with an manual tranny, when my current Subaru dies.  Seems like automatic trannies, or worse, CVT trannies are all that's available anymore.


Both Audi and BMW have 'em.  But it is less than 10%, prob closer to 5%.
Then again a nice Paddle shifted Dual Clutch is pretty sweet


----------



## PAabe (Apr 11, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> Speaking of permanent changes, I'm getting concerned that I will not be able to drive to the slopes in a car with an manual tranny, when my current Subaru dies.  Seems like automatic trannies, or worse, CVT trannies are all that's available anymore.


I am concerned about this as well.  The new subarus are too big and have too much computerized stuff and no manual except on the crosstrek,
You can't get small pickups anymore either let alone small pickups with a manual transmission.
Euro cars are expensive to maintain.
The mazdas 3 and 6 drive great but ground clearance is lower than subaru and I don't think you can get both awd and manual although they are fwd at least.  Mazda6 wagon is beautiful but not sold in US sadly - that would be about the closest you could get to the old subarus.


----------



## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I am concerned about this as well.  The new subarus are too big and have too much computerized stuff and no manual except on the crosstrek,
> You can't get small pickups anymore either let alone small pickups with a manual transmission.
> Euro cars are expensive to maintain.
> The mazdas 3 and 6 drive great but ground clearance is lower than subaru and I don't think you can get both awd and manual although they are fwd at least.  Mazda6 wagon is beautiful but not sold in US sadly - that would be about the closest you could get to the old subarus.


I currently have an Impreza hatch and I love it, but it doesn't have enough ground clearance for hunting and storm chasing.  The Impreza is already underpowered, so I really don't want a Crosstrek which is heavier and higher.  I wish the 190HP Crosstrek was available with a manual tranny, but Subaru doesn't care about my needs.  I'm thinking I might go with a +/- $10,000 Frontier next year, and then get a sportier stick for decent weather


----------



## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Both Audi and BMW have 'em.  But it is less than 10%, prob closer to 5%.
> Then again a nice Paddle shifted Dual Clutch is pretty sweet


I know the DCTs are better in every measurable way, but the heart wants what the heart wants.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 11, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> I currently have an Impreza hatch and I love it, but it doesn't have enough ground clearance for hunting and storm chasing.  The Impreza is already underpowered, so I really don't want a Crosstrek which is heavier and higher.  I wish the 190HP Crosstrek was available with a manual tranny, but Subaru doesn't care about my needs.  I'm thinking I might go with a +/- $10,000 Frontier next year, and then get a sportier stick for decent weather


I commuted over 2 mountain passes from south lake Tahoe to kirkwood daily for years in an Impreza with proper snows. Never got stuck once


----------



## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I commuted over 2 mountain passes from south lake Tahoe to kirkwood daily for years in an Impreza with proper snows. Never got stuck once


And yet driving on dirt fire roads in the Catskills and the Greens is a totally different experience.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 11, 2021)

I live in NH for two winters now and have been fine. Then again I'm driving highways mostly to ski and it hasn't exactly been all that stormy except for that one back in December. That was some dicey shit for sure...


----------



## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I live in NH for two winters now and have been fine. Then again I'm driving highways mostly to ski and it hasn't exactly been all that stormy except for that one back in December. That was some dicey shit for sure...


Gotten stuck on framerails twice on dirt roads.  Both times hunting fortunately, so I had guys with trucks nearby.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 11, 2021)

rebel1916 said:


> Gotten stuck on framerails twice on dirt roads.  Both times hunting fortunately, so I had guys with trucks nearby.


Oh you mean real hunting. I thought you were talking pow hunting. Yeah Ive bottomed in my impreza plenty of times on dirt roads.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

I would buy this to replace my 2015 outback: https://www.subaru.com/something-wild


----------



## Edd (Apr 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I would buy this to replace my 2015 outback: https://www.subaru.com/something-wild


It is pretty but purposeful for off-road. I’m surprised they didn’t do this a long time ago.


----------



## flakeydog (Apr 12, 2021)

Edd said:


> It is pretty but purposeful for off-road. I’m surprised they didn’t do this a long time ago.


I think they did back in 95-96 when they introduced the Outback.


but good for them to continue the evolution, looks cool!


----------



## Edd (Apr 12, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> I think they did back in 95-96 when they introduced the Outback.
> 
> View attachment 51379
> but good for them to continue the evolution, looks cool!


That ad represents what they’ve always marketed about every Outback. This new Wilderness version has skid plates, higher ground clearance, and a bunch of other stuff beyond the standard model. Basically, they’re selling what off-road nerds do with aftermarket modifications to standard Outbacks.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

Would be great for NYC driving as well...thats off road conditions pretty much.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 13, 2021)

My biggest concern is the idea that mask wearing will become a thing.  Massachusetts lifted the mask mandate outdoors as well as other states and people are still wearing masks as they walk around outside and while driving - I did not follow that mandate while outside in the first place.


----------



## snoseek (May 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> My biggest concern is the idea that mask wearing will become a thing.  Massachusetts lifted the mask mandate outdoors as well as other states and people are still wearing masks as they walk around outside and while driving - I did not follow that mandate while outside in the first place.


Does it really matter enough to concern though? It doesn't really affect you. Lots of mask wearing in exeter still which I assume the town still has their own mandate. When the local mandates are lifted and numbers virtually gone the mask thing will fade. Until then who cares?

I'll probably where one into the airport going forward


----------



## icecoast1 (May 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> My biggest concern is the idea that mask wearing will become a thing.  Massachusetts lifted the mask mandate outdoors as well as other states and people are still wearing masks as they walk around outside and while driving - I did not follow that mandate while outside in the first place.


With the new CDC guidelines, you would think anyone claiming to follow the science would lift the mandates for those who have received the vaccine, but then again it hasnt been about the science and objectivity for many since the beginning


----------



## abc (May 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> My biggest concern is the idea that mask wearing will become a thing.


I don't get why is that a concern at all?


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't get why is that a concern at all?


My first post, lol.  I think it's a concern because of all the shaming that was going on against people outside not wearing masks and these people may expect others to wear masks when it's not mandated.  Happened to me in Colorado when the Governor said no more outside mask mandates and the Mountain I was skiing at said they had no more outside mask mandates.  Two people on the lift asked me to put a mask on, I said no thanks.


----------



## jt10000 (May 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> My first post, lol.  I think it's a concern because of all the shaming that was going on against people outside not wearing masks and these people may expect others to wear masks when it's not mandated.  Happened to me in Colorado when the Governor said no more outside mask mandates and the Mountain I was skiing at said they had no more outside mask mandates.  Two people on the lift asked me to put a mask on, I said no thanks.


The shaming seems legit when we didn't know for sure how the disease is transmitted. In a time of that uncertainty, with something that's killed 580K, it makes sense.

My fear now is that people will rag on me for wearing a mask outside. Masks have plenty of other benefits than just preventing the spread of covid, and I'm certainly going to wear one a lot.  

And frankly given how much I think people will lie about their vaccination status, I wish we had mandates indoors for a long long time. Outdoors there is no need for that.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> The shaming seems legit when we didn't know for sure how the disease is transmitted. In a time of that uncertainty, with something that's killed 580K, it makes sense.
> 
> My fear now is that people will rag on me for wearing a mask outside. Masks have plenty of other benefits than just preventing the spread of covid, and I'm certainly going to wear one a lot.
> 
> And frankly given how much I think people will lie about their vaccination status, I wish we had mandates indoors for a long long time. Outdoors there is no need for that.


That's fine, you have your opinion.  I don't care who wears a mask and who doesn't, never did.  I also don't care if someone lies about their vaccination status because it's not yet FDA approved and expecting someone to get a vaccine that is still under emergency protection is no ones business but that persons.  We all need to stop forcing our own opinions on other people.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

Reading this thread makes me wonder why some people are so quick to give up some of our luxuries, lol.  Yes I can boot up in my car, no I don't want to.  The amount of money I spend at ski resorts I want some of those luxuries.  Many places on the East Coast have lounges, I've found out skiing in Colorado they most likely don't have them.  That's fine, but the East is much colder and crappier conditions.  I look at it as we pay for it, you may think your money is just for the lift pass, I don't.  I've seen parents tending to 4 or so small kids, not fun, so I'm sure they appreciate the lounge.

I do think some businesses will take advantage of this Covid thing, once they realize they can make just as much money while cutting back on certain services they will continue with it.  The pendulum will eventually swing back because customers will demand it and the places that listen will get more of those customers.  I mean look, McDonalds keeps bringing back the McRib! lol


----------



## urungus (May 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Two people on the lift asked me to put a mask on, I said no thanks.



Wow, you sure showed them.  Did you cough in their faces as well ?


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

urungus said:


> Wow, you sure showed them.  Did you cough in their faces as well ?


You are too dumb to read the posts and why I posted what I did?  I'm sorry if you are scared, I'm not wearing a mask for you if there are no mandates.  If mask wearers think everyone needs to wear a mask just because it makes them feel safe, sorry to say that won't be happening.  Stay home.


----------



## jt10000 (May 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> That's fine, you have your opinion.  I don't care who wears a mask and who doesn't, never did.  I also don't care if someone lies about their vaccination status because it's not yet FDA approved and expecting someone to get a vaccine that is still under emergency protection is no ones business but that persons.  We all need to stop forcing our own opinions on other people.


If they don't want to get a vaccine, I understand, but lying to other people so they can be indoors near those other people possibly helping spread the disease is totally selfish.  It's horrendous.  You want to be indoors, then do your part to not spread the disease.  This is basic human decency.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> If they don't want to get a vaccine, I understand, but lying to other people so they can be indoors near those other people possibly helping spread the disease is totally selfish.  It's horrendous.  You want to be indoors, then do your part to not spread the disease.  This is basic human decency.


My point was it is none of your business to ask anyone if they had the vaccine.  Maybe they recently had Covid and they are immune? It's not your business.  From reading what you wrote you seem to think only vaccinated people will be indoors without masks?  You do realize many States are open with no mask mandates?  Many businesses are allowing people in with no masks, no vaccine proof?  Some people seem to live in their own little world and not understand what's going on in other places.  I couldn't care less if people from California or NY don't like what Florida or Texas and other States are doing.


----------



## jt10000 (May 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> My point was it is none of your business to ask anyone if they had the vaccine.  Maybe they recently had Covid and they are immune? It's not your business.  From reading what you wrote you seem to think only vaccinated people will be indoors without masks?  You do realize many States are open with no mask mandates?  Many businesses are allowing people in with no masks, no vaccine proof?  Some people seem to live in their own little world and not understand what's going on in other places.  I couldn't care less if people from California or NY don't like what Florida or Texas and other States are doing.


This is some wild stuff and helps explain how we have over half a million people die and tens of millions be infected. in this country. Thanks for explaining it so well.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> This is some wild stuff and helps explain how we have over half a million people die and tens of millions be infected. in this country. Thanks for explaining it so well.


What is it that you don't understand?  Many places are open and not requiring masks or proof of vaccine.  Get your shot and don't worry about what other people do.  You have your opinions but the rest of us don't have to have the same.


----------



## icecoast1 (May 14, 2021)

urungus said:


> Wow, you sure showed them.  Did you cough in their faces as well ?


Seeing as outdoor transmission is virtually 0, I'm sure they survived


----------



## jt10000 (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> What is it that you don't understand?  Many places are open and not requiring masks or proof of vaccine.  Get your shot and don't worry about what other people do.  You have your opinions but the rest of us don't have to have the same.


I don't care much about opinions. I care about behavior. Give how much people may lie, it'll be great if ski areas keep requiring masks indoors until the infections rates are super-low.


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2021)

CDC now has said mask not needed outdoors and most indoor settings. If you don't like or feel unsafe where people don't where masks don't go there or wear one yourself. I don't care if you haven't gotten the vaccine, at this point that is your choice not mine.


----------



## drjeff (May 14, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> I don't care much about opinions. I care about behavior. Give how much people may lie, it'll be great if ski areas keep requiring masks indoors until the infections rates are super-low.



The reality is the only behavior that you can control is yours.  If you don't like something that someone else is doing, well then either don't associate with that person and/or do your thing someplace else. That is your choice. That is what you have control of. 

If you want to wear a mask, or 2, or 3 or more, that is your choice and right to do so. If you don't want to go into a business where they aren't going to ask their customers to wear a mask while in/at their establishment, that is your choice. 

Everyone has their own person levels of risk comfort. Just because 1 person may be more risk averse than another doesn't make 1 right and the other wrong


----------



## snoseek (May 14, 2021)

This shit has been a long run. Mask are coming off...maybe not as fast as some want but they are. By the end of summer mask will probably be done everywhere pretty much.


----------



## skiur (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> CDC now has said mask not needed outdoors and most indoor settings. If you don't like or feel unsafe where people don't where masks don't go there or wear one yourself. I don't care if you haven't gotten the vaccine, at this point that is your choice not mine.



That about sums it up.  If you feel better wearing a mask, feel free to.  If you don't want to be around maskless people than stay home.  I have my vaccination so I could care less if the person next to me has a mask on or if they are vaccinated.  I wore masks outside all year when the science said it was not necessary and did not complain.  Now my mask is coming off.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> CDC now has said mask not needed outdoors and most indoor settings *for those vaccinated*.


Fix it for you.


----------



## drjeff (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Fix it for you.



That was when you were outside and within 6 feet of another person and/or where socially distancing wasn't feasible.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The reality is the only behavior that you can control is yours. If you don't like something that someone else is doing, well then either don't associate with that person and/or do your thing someplace else. That is your choice. That is what you have control of.
> 
> If you want to wear a mask, or 2, or 3 or more, that is your choice and right to do so. If you don't want to go into a business where they aren't going to ask their customers to wear a mask while in/at their establishment, that is your choice.


The virus is going to do what it's going to do. 

CDC's recommendation even at best, are guesses as to what's "safer" behavior. Some of those guesses turns out to be quite a bit off in hindsight. So everyone has to deal with the uncertainty their own way. If you don't feel comfortable going inside a place where people are maskless, you can choose not to go inside. That's about it. Yes, it would limit where YOU can go, But so is requiring others to wear a mask. 

Plenty of people have been congregating indoors maskless. Some of them have paid the ultimate price for their choices. Others have no ill effect. Plenty of people have avoided indoor places even with mask. It's their own judgement regarding the uncertainty. 

In the mean time, the virus will mutate and change. People will continue to get sick or get well (or die). It's a uncertainty we'll have to live with.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> That was when you were outside and within 6 feet of another person and/or where socially distancing wasn't feasible.


There's never a mask requirement outdoors *except* those situation, vaccinated or otherwise.

The only confusion was the CDC never made it clear how long such outdoor "close encounter" need to be that mask are recommended. Granted, they don't even know for sure.

So a lot of people are giving grief to others walking down the street/trail without mask, which is kind of overreaching.

[EDIT]
Correction to the original post which was the opposite of what I meant.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't get why is that a concern at all?



maybe wrong word choice.  We visited some friends the other day where everyone is vaccinated and when others walked in they wanted people to wear masks.  They felt safer.  Some left shortly after that.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> There's never a mask requirement for those situation, vaccinated or otherwise.
> 
> The only confusion was the CDC never made it clear how long such outdoor "close encounter" need to be that mask are recommended. Granted, they don't even know for sure.
> 
> So a lot of people are giving grief to others walking down the street/trail without mask, which is kind of overreaching.



there is an example of my concern going forward


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> maybe wrong word choice.  We visited some friends the other day where everyone is vaccinated and when others walked in they wanted people to wear masks.  They felt safer.  Some left shortly after that.


Some people want visitors to take off their shoes when they come to visit. I guess not everybody is comfortable with that either. So it's not surprising the guest may not return. 

I wouldn't bother visiting those people until they're ready to take their mask off. It's not that big a deal.


----------



## drjeff (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> The virus is going to do what it's going to do.
> 
> CDC's recommendation even at best, are guesses as to what's "safer" behavior. Some of those guesses turns out to be quite a bit off in hindsight. So everyone has to deal with the uncertainty their own way. If you don't feel comfortable going inside a place where people are maskless, you can choose not to go inside. That's about it. Yes, it would limit where YOU can go, But so is requiring others to wear a mask.
> 
> ...



The reality is that there are many people in society that have a vastly inaccurate view, for whatever reason, of what the true COVID risks to them are. And that is me not denying that COVID exists and has certainly caused/contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in this country. No question about that at all.

This is why you still see some people wearing gloves when out in public, wiping down anything and everything (including their food just bought/delivered from the grocery store, etc) when the science clearly has shown that that isn't needed, and realistically never was needed.  This is why if you ask many a person what they think the risk of hospitalization if one contracts COVID is they will say a number far greater than it actually is. This is why if you ask many a person what the fatality rate of someone say over age 80 is if they contract COVID, they will say it's far greater than the actual roughly 5% mortality rate in those 80 and over that the data shows.

The amount of data that has been put forth about COVID over the last going on 18 months now, is staggering. Certainly not all of what has been put forth was either accurate from day 1, or in many cases is still what is considered the "best practices" data and/or information still as science has learned more and more about this disease process. Many in society, have chosen not to follow "today's science" and still are almost living in an incapacitating amount of fear that the media often thrust upon them back in early 2020, and that is truly a sad state of affairs for both our society, and those who simply can't see that some of what they were told about this disease process and/or they read online, just isn't true.


----------



## kbroderick (May 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that there are many people in society that have a vastly inaccurate view, for whatever reason, of what the true COVID risks to them are. And that is me not denying that COVID exists and has certainly caused/contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in this country. No question about that at all.
> 
> This is why you still see some people wearing gloves when out in public, wiping down anything and everything (including their food just bought/delivered from the grocery store, etc) when the science clearly has shown that that isn't needed, and realistically never was needed.  This is why if you ask many a person what they think the risk of hospitalization if one contracts COVID is they will say a number far greater than it actually is. This is why if you ask many a person what the fatality rate of someone say over age 80 is if they contract COVID, they will say it's far greater than the actual roughly 5% mortality rate in those 80 and over that the data shows.
> 
> The amount of data that has been put forth about COVID over the last going on 18 months now, is staggering. Certainly not all of what has been put forth was either accurate from day 1, or in many cases is still what is considered the "best practices" data and/or information still as science has learned more and more about this disease process. Many in society, have chosen not to follow "today's science" and still are almost living in an incapacitating amount of fear that the media often thrust upon them back in early 2020, and that is truly a sad state of affairs for both our society, and those who simply can't see that some of what they were told about this disease process and/or they read online, just isn't true.



a) I agree that the direct risk of death or hospitalization is relatively low to most adults.
b) The long-haul symptom risk is also low, but IMO a lot scarier.
c) Yes, there are other activities (driving comes to mind) that also have a low but non-trivial risk profile, and which we accept as part of daily life
d) All of the above overlooks the disparate impact on certain populations, particularly pregnant women. The data is still highly inconclusive, but suggests that pregnant women getting Covid are at much higher risk of serious illness and death than non-pregnant women with otherwise identical demographics; further, the risk of preterm birth is (last I read) significantly elevated.
e) The impact of Covid on vaccinated pregnant women in the small percentage that get breakthrough infections remains an unknown.
f) With the levels of community transmission in some places the combination between (e) and (d) creates, IMO, rather legitimate concern
g) Masking appears to mitigate spread, but is most effective when the spreader and spreadee are both masked; the spreadee alone wearing a mask is likely of limited effectiveness (although data is mixed, at best)

So the current CDC guideline, if followed, makes sense (keep those who are most likely to spread the disease masked when indoors and not distanced, which would allow those who are in an at-risk population or who are in regular contact with such people, to mitigate that additional risk with their own masks). But as has been made abundantly clear above, and as anyone who's been following the whole masks-as-a-political-hot-potato saga could've guessed, the overlap between those who are anti-vaccine and who will take any excuse to avoid masking is significant, and the real-world implementation of "vaccinated people need not mask indoors" is going to end up being "people won't wear masks indoors."

Given that twist, IMO it would've made sense for the CDC (and states) to continue advising and requiring (respectively) masking in indoor situations until vaccination rates were higher and transmission rates were lower. The folks at the CDC presumably have better data and a better guess at future trends than I do, though, so perhaps they think we're close enough to peak vaccination rates and the trends are going to get going in the right direction soon as a result.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Many in society, have chosen not to follow "today's science" and still are almost living in an incapacitating amount of fear


That's nothing new.

Many parents won't let their kids play in the street (we used to do when we were kids), fearing their kid would be abducted by bad people. Something the media tend to overhyped. 

Certain segment of society are gravitated towards risk averse behavior. That just carry over to Covid fear. Or put another way, now they have one more fear in addition to all of the ones they're "avoiding".


----------



## jt10000 (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> CDC now has said mask not needed outdoors and most indoor settings.


Wild. It's wild that you left out something very important - particularly indoors: those recommendations are for people who are vaccinated.



Smellytele said:


> If you don't like or feel unsafe where people don't where masks don't go there or wear one yourself. I don't care if you haven't gotten the vaccine, at this point that is your choice not mine.


I do care if you haven't gotten vaccinated and are indoors with other people, particularly with people I know but also with people in general. I'm allowed to care. You might not agree, but I can care and I can push politicians and stores to err on the side of caution.


----------



## jt10000 (May 14, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> the overlap between those who are anti-vaccine and who will take any excuse to avoid masking is significant, and the real-world implementation of "vaccinated people need not mask indoors" is going to end up being "people won't wear masks indoors."


THIS. Which is bad.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

There are so many scenarios that can be drawn up that either refute or support an argument.  Because of this, lots of different rules have been made and lots of different opinions have resulted.  I have limited confidence in the data.  In fact I even have limited confidence in the science as well because there are a conflicting views.  There is a large population now that are robots almost and react to programming by media and politics and they have developed the greatest fear.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> something very important - particularly indoors: those recommendations are for people who are vaccinated.



So how do people identify that they are vaccinated?  Are we going to have to show a vaccination card?  It will come to that soon.  However nothing in their guidelines discuss that part.  I bet bars will not, they will take on the persons word like VT did regarding quarantine.  There were attestation forms but not all organizations were following through on that.  So if a bar has 100 people mostly or totally unmasked, will government raids take place to check if everyone is compliant - doubt it.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> THIS. Which is bad.



Well those that are vaccinated will not care right?  and those without vaccination are willing to take the risk.  That does not seem so bad.


----------



## kbroderick (May 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Well those that are vaccinated will not care right?  and those without vaccination are willing to take the risk.  That does not seem so bad.


I was on board with not caring until hearing a reliably sourced anecdote about a kid infecting his fully vaccinated mother. That drove home the 95 does not equal 100 percent bit for me, and I care about our ability to make sure we take appropriate mitigation steps for higher-risk folks (for me, personally, that would be my 70-year-old father with dementia and my pregnant wife). The number of people with direct contacts in elevated-risk groups is, IMO, very easy to underestimate.

I ride motorcycles and ski avalanche terrain; I have no problem with people choosing their activities to match their own risk tolerances. It's when their decisions impose their risk tolerances on others that I think it becomes a societal question rather than an individual one.


----------



## skiur (May 14, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I was on board with not caring until hearing a reliably sourced anecdote about a kid infecting his fully vaccinated mother. That drove home the 95 does not equal 100 percent bit for me, and I care about our ability to make sure we take appropriate mitigation steps for higher-risk folks (for me, personally, that would be my 70-year-old father with dementia and my pregnant wife). The number of people with direct contacts in elevated-risk groups is, IMO, very easy to underestimate.
> 
> I ride motorcycles and ski avalanche terrain; I have no problem with people choosing their activities to match their own risk tolerances. It's when their decisions impose their risk tolerances on others that I think it becomes a societal question rather than an individual one.



Well then I guess you should just wear your mask for the rest of your life.  Newsflash, people get sick and die, that's never going to change.


----------



## Domeskier (May 14, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I was on board with not caring until hearing a reliably sourced anecdote about a kid infecting his fully vaccinated mother. That drove home the 95 does not equal 100 percent bit for me, and I care about our ability to make sure we take appropriate mitigation steps for higher-risk folks (for me, personally, that would be my 70-year-old father with dementia and my pregnant wife). The number of people with direct contacts in elevated-risk groups is, IMO, very easy to underestimate.


And who knows how effective the vaccines with be against variants sure to make the rounds among the anti-masker anti-vaxxers.  It's hard to believe this is the same country that wiped out polio, smallpox and measles.


----------



## mikec142 (May 14, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> It's hard to believe this is the same country that wiped out polio, smallpox and measles.


^This.  So much, this.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

Dr. Fauci admitted on a live broadcast he doesn't know why States like Texas and Florida are doing just fine compared to States that have all kinds of mandates.  The science is not exact.  Are we going to have to mask up during a bad flu season?  Some of you say you will, I won't.  I'm not saying the vaccination is not safe, but the government must lift the emergency vaccine status from these companies if they want to push it on us so much.  What do you think will happen then?  Will these manufacturers stop producing it, if so why?  If it's not such a big deal then these manufacturers will not care, right?


----------



## Harvey (May 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Are we going to have to show a vaccination card?


If Covid continues to decline now and into the fall, my guess is no.

If it explodes when it gets cold again?  And requires all new vaccine for variants?  Then maybe yes.


----------



## cdskier (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> I'm not saying the vaccination is not safe, but the government must lift the emergency vaccine status from these companies if they want to push it on us so much.  What do you think will happen then?  Will these manufacturers stop producing it, if so why?  If it's not such a big deal then these manufacturers will not care, right?



Huh? If the government lifts the Emergency Use Authorization, then the vaccines can't be used. The only reason at that point that the manufacturers would stop producing it is because there would be no one buying it. You do realize that these vaccines and their clinical trial data were reviewed by the FDA with the same level of scrutiny as they would for full approval, right? Some people keep talking about lack of long term studies...yet the majority of the data that the FDA looks for in the long term studies is duration of efficacy. That's the major difference between the temporary approval now vs the full approval that is extremely likely to happen down the road. In the history of vaccines, the most serious side effects have all been discovered within the first 6 weeks of receiving a dose (this is according to Dr Paul Offit who has been studying vaccines for over 4 decades...). So that isn't likely something you'd see suddenly discovered in long term studies.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Huh? If the government lifts the Emergency Use Authorization, then the vaccines can't be used. The only reason at that point that the manufacturers would stop producing it is because there would be no one buying it. You do realize that these vaccines and their clinical trial data were reviewed by the FDA with the same level of scrutiny as they would for full approval, right? Some people keep talking about lack of long term studies...yet the majority of the data that the FDA looks for in the long term studies is duration of efficacy. That's the major difference between the temporary approval now vs the full approval that is extremely likely to happen down the road. In the history of vaccines, the most serious side effects have all been discovered within the first 6 weeks of receiving a dose (this is according to Dr Paul Offit who has been studying vaccines for over 4 decades...). So that isn't likely something you'd see suddenly discovered in long term studies.


So your saying if they lift the Emergency Use Authorization then the vaccines cannot be used?  Why?  Please explain this to me.  My point is if the Government wants to push this on people, they need to lift the protections from these manufacturers.  If they are so safe then what is the problem in doing that?


----------



## icecoast1 (May 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So how do people identify that they are vaccinated?  Are we going to have to show a vaccination card?  It will come to that soon.  However nothing in their guidelines discuss that part.  I bet bars will not, they will take on the persons word like VT did regarding quarantine.  There were attestation forms but not all organizations were following through on that.  So if a bar has 100 people mostly or totally unmasked, will government raids take place to check if everyone is compliant - doubt it.


Comes down to how far the government wants to go with it.  NY supposedly has an app to download on your phone to show as proof of vaccination.   I wouldn't know, I wont be participating in that.  It would be pretty simple to implement some kind of proof of vaccination if they want to though, which given some of the crazy experiences over the last year, I wouldn't be surprised to see, but I hope not


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> So your saying if they lift the Emergency Use Authorization then the vaccines cannot be used?  Why?  Please explain this to me.  My point is if the Government wants to push this on people, they need to lift the protections from these manufacturers.  If they are so safe then what is the problem in doing that?


Do you even know how the vaccine approval process involves? And the different data needed for Emergency vs full Authorization?


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Do you even know how the vaccine approval process involves? And the different data needed for Emergency vs full Authorization?


Do you see I'm asking the question?  What don't you understand about that.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Comes down to how far the government wants to go with it.  NY supposedly has an app to download on your phone to show as proof of vaccination.   I wouldn't know, I wont be participating in that.  It would be pretty simple to implement some kind of proof of vaccination if they want to though, which given some of the crazy experiences over the last year, I wouldn't be surprised to see, but I hope not


It is so easy to fake the vaccine cards that are being given out.  Scan someone else's to Adobe pdf, then edit it with your information.  I'm not suggesting to do this, just pointing out with today's technology this can't be enforced properly.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Do you see I'm asking the question?  What don't you understand about that.


One more thing, I really don't give two shits about the process.  If someone wants to mandate this, they need to remove the protections from the manufacturers.  If that takes years, then get back to me in years.  Not really my problem.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I was on board with not caring until hearing a reliably sourced anecdote about a kid infecting his fully vaccinated mother. That drove home the 95 does not equal 100 percent bit for me, and I care about our ability to make sure we take appropriate mitigation steps for higher-risk folks (for me, personally, that would be my 70-year-old father with dementia and my pregnant wife). The number of people with direct contacts in elevated-risk groups is, IMO, very easy to underestimate.
> 
> I ride motorcycles and ski avalanche terrain; I have no problem with people choosing their activities to match their own risk tolerances. It's when their decisions impose their risk tolerances on others that I think it becomes a societal question rather than an individual one.


Well, since you brought up the example of motorcycle. You must know many motorcycle accidents are actually caused by car drivers not paying attention to motorcycles. And for that matter, many accidents are caused by drivers not paying attention, period.

Skiing is another. You can be a hot shot skier, but you can be taken out by an out of control skier straightlining into the lift line! Those are the risks we accept of others behavior we can't control.

In other words, the behavior of others do impact us. That's not something any of us can control. We accept there's a level of risk that our lives can be tragically changed due to no fault of our own but due to others careless behavior.

So some people will refuse to wear a mask, just as they may drive while intoxicated. As much as you dislike it, you just have to live with it unless you want to live in the woods and not interact with the general public.

Do I condone those reckless behavior? No. But do I live in fear of these people? No. Or do I go around making a big fuss about people who behave recklessly? No, I don't bother.

I don't ski at Hunter on weekend as a way to reduce my risk to reckless skiers. The same reason I get vaccinated at the earliest moment I was qualified. I do my best to reduce my risk. But I don't expect to achieve zero risk. Much less insist everyone else behave as I do.

Covid is no different.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

For some of the ones still saying vaccinated people need to wear masks, this is right from the CDC.  If you want to continue wearing a mask be my guest, but don't expect others too.

"Authorized vaccines are effective at preventing people from getting infected and spreading the virus to others, in addition to preventing severe disease and death, according to the latest studies."



			Behind the CDC's No-Mask Green Light for the Fully Vaccinated


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Wild. It's wild that you left out something very important - particularly indoors: those recommendations are for people who are vaccinated.
> 
> I do care if you haven't gotten vaccinated and are indoors with other people, particularly with people I know but also with people in general. I'm allowed to care. You might not agree, but I can care and I can push politicians and stores to err on the side of caution.


I am vaccinated I can do what I want. If you are not then that is your problem. Get vaccinated or stay shut up in your house. STFU


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I am vaccinated I can do what I want. If you are not then that is your problem. Get vaccinated or stay shut up in your house. STFU


Actually, if you are scared then stay home.  I'm not vaccinated, not scared, and not staying the fuck home.  I think some of you live in Commie states or something.


----------



## cdskier (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> So your saying if they lift the Emergency Use Authorization then the vaccines cannot be used?  Why?  Please explain this to me.  My point is if the Government wants to push this on people, they need to lift the protections from these manufacturers.  If they are so safe then what is the problem in doing that?


You can't be this naive regarding how drugs work in the US (and pretty much all other civilized nations around the world), can you? A drug (or vaccine) cannot be dispensed without some sort of approval (whether it is full FDA approval or Emergency Use Authorization). You're also confusing 2 separate issues. Emergency Use Authorization is separate from the protections afforded to the drug manufacturers that prevent you from suing them. That protection comes from the 2005 "Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act"...aka PREP Act which the HHS secretary invoked for the COVID vaccines. Even though you can't directly sue the manufacturers, the PREP Act did establish a program that you could use to receive compensation in the event of some major injury directly linked to receiving the vaccine (Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP)).


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> You can't be this naive regarding how drugs work in the US (and pretty much all other civilized nations around the world), can you? A drug (or vaccine) cannot be dispensed without some sort of approval (whether it is full FDA approval or Emergency Use Authorization). You're also confusing 2 separate issues. Emergency Use Authorization is separate from the protections afforded to the drug manufacturers that prevent you from suing them. That protection comes from the 2005 "Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act"...aka PREP Act which the HHS secretary invoked for the COVID vaccines. Even though you can't directly sue the manufacturers, the PREP Act did establish a program that you could use to receive compensation in the event of some major injury directly linked to receiving the vaccine (Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP)).


Why the hell would I pretend to know how drugs work in the US.  I am not prescribed any and I don't take any OTC shit anyways.  I don't get the flu vaccine and I'm not getting this one.  My point is, if they want more Americans to get the vaccine because they say it is so safe, then lift the protections.  It's as simple as that.  I don't care what the government says they can do or cannot do, that's not my problem, it's theirs.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Why the hell would I pretend to know how drugs work in the US.





EastCoastScott said:


> I don't care what the government says they can do or cannot do, that's not my problem, it's theirs.


That's telling from someone who goes on and on about what the government "should" do for the best of the country!

A vocal opinion based on ignorance.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

You people all got hung up about mask. But life had been going on WITH MASK for nearly a year!

The far more significant part of the CDC's new guideline for the vaccinated are they no longer need to socially distance! That means businesses can safely operate at full capacity if they so choose. 

How the business choose to verify vaccination status is up to them. Just look at the example of Vermont's quarantine rules that's never enforced. It kept a good percentage of visitors out. Sure, the business suffers. But Vermont also has the lowest infection rate. So the un-enforced rule actually worked quite well. 

On the practical side, it's really simple. If you have to work indoors all day long, it's up to you to choose to vaccinate or not. You know some unvaccinated moron will come in without mask. How to protect yourself is up to you. For the rest of the customers, they can choose NOT to visit any business indoors, or wear a mask if they're that worried. 

"Back to normal" is all about business operating as before. Removing the social distancing rule for the vaccinated is the much more significant part of that new CDC guideline. But people are all hung up on the mask part of the rule. Talk about barking up the wrong tree!


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> You people all got hung up about mask. But life had been going on WITH MASK for nearly a year!
> 
> The far more significant part of the CDC's new guideline for the vaccinated are they no longer need to socially distance! That means businesses can safely operate at full capacity if they so choose.
> 
> ...


Lol, some unvaccinated moron.  Maybe you are the moron, who knows?  New studies are showing that vaccinated people rarely can catch it or transmit it, so don't worry about the unvaccinated if you are vaccinated.  Make sure to mask up next flu season sheep.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> That's telling from someone who goes on and on about what the government "should" do for the best of the country!
> 
> A vocal opinion based on ignorance.


For the best of the country, lol.  My opinion is based on what I feel is best for myself and my situation so your opinion means nothing to me.  Carry on wearing your mask if you choose, many of us will choose not too.


----------



## Edd (May 15, 2021)

45 seems very on board with the modern day miracle of these vaccines, if that helps anyone decide.









						Trump Wants Credit for 'Modern day Miracle of the Vaccines'
					

On the heels of the CDC’s <a href="https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html">announcement</a> that fully v




					floridianpress.com


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> 45 seems very on board with the modern day miracle of these vaccines, if that helps anyone decide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's funny too me is anyone listening to any politician either way.  I don't listen to the ones saying get it, I don't listen to the ones saying don't.  Some of you seem to hold their opinions in high regards, not me.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> My opinion is based on what I feel is best for myself and my situation


"Opinion", base on "feeling". 

Enough said.


----------



## icecoast1 (May 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> 45 seems very on board with the modern day miracle of these vaccines, if that helps anyone decide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you felt the need to inject that into the conversation, although had it not been for Operation Warp Speed, we'd still be waiting for vaccines


----------



## Edd (May 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I'm not sure why you felt the need to inject that into the conversation, although had it not been for Operation Warp Speed, we'd still be waiting for vaccines


You’re not?









						Thanks to Republican Anti-Vaxxers, the U.S. May Never Reach Herd Immunity
					

The huge percentage of GOP voters refusing to get vaccinated is likely to drag out the COVID-19 pandemic.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> How the business choose to verify vaccination status is up to them. Just look at the example of Vermont's quarantine rules that's never enforced. It kept a good percentage of visitors out. *Sure, the business suffers. But Vermont also has the lowest infection rate. So the un-enforced rule actually worked quite well.*



Correlation does not imply causation.  

Especially given same/similar results were not replicable in other very strict states.   The far more logical answer, IMO, if the homogeneity of State of Vermont & its innate separation & wide open spaces offered protection.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> "Opinion", base on "feeling".
> 
> Enough said.


You are an idiot.  Opinions are based on many things.  Of course opinions are based on feelings.  If you feel your child should take summer classes, your opinion is your child should take summer classes.  Enough said.  What a joke you are.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> You’re not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are falling for the fake news.  I know many people that just don't want the vaccine and they are not Trump supporters.  Don't be so blind.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Make sure to mask up next flu season sheep


Yes, flu is a killer. But you can pretend it doesn't matter.

Don't wash you hands too. You won't catch anything, anything at all from soiled food. In fact, why bother washing dishes???


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> You are an idiot.  Opinions are based on many things.  Of course opinions are based on feelings.  If you feel your child should take summer classes, your opinion is your child should take summer classes.  Enough said.  What a joke you are.


Hahaha!! When logic fails, and argument is clearly lost, resort to name calling! Look what kind of new members this forum attracts! Bright future this board will have, I'm sure. 

But hey, opinion based on "feeling" is the best opinion. Proud to say that!

Oh wait, isn't that what some people based their actions on too? "Gut feelings"! Some really famous and powerful people too! Science? Who needs science when you got "gut feelings"! 

Idiot? Hehehe! "Better be thought of as an idiot, than to open one's mouth to confirm it". We now all know who's the idiot.


----------



## JimG. (May 16, 2021)

You guys aren't done yet?

Wow!


----------



## snoseek (May 16, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You guys aren't done yet?
> 
> Wow!


The bickering will long outlast the covid!


----------



## kingslug (May 16, 2021)

The bickering will last until mankind..ends.


----------



## mikec142 (May 16, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> For the best of the country, lol.  My opinion is based on what I feel is best for myself and my situation so your opinion means nothing to me.  Carry on wearing your mask if you choose, many of us will choose not too.


Dunning-Kruger


----------



## Fishski (May 17, 2021)

New to joining forums but have been reading them forever.  

I must say the back and forth on vax/ no vax, mask/ no mask coincides with ongoing debates everywhere you turn nowadays (even within my house).  This topic is such a hot button one that I decided to join to chime in.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and whether or not they should get the vaccine or not.  I do believe that if you choose not to, which is your right selfish or not, at least you should be willing to thank those that have chosen to get the vaccine to help finally beat down the spread to the point that we are returning to a more "open" or normal way of life IMHO.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 17, 2021)

The Las Vegas resort and casino Wynn Las Vegas changed its rules regarding masks after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued its new mask guidelines Thursday. On Friday, the company said in a press release that it will communicate the CDC guidelines to its Encore and Wynn guests that they are required to wear a mask if they aren’t vaccinated, but the casino will not verify vaccination status,









						Wynn says vaccinated workers and guests can ditch masks in Nevada casinos
					

The change was made possible because the Nevada Gaming Control Board, which sets the rules for casinos, reacted quickly to update its rules.




					www.cnbc.com
				




I brought this up the other day.  Many organizations are going to allow people to not wear masks if vaccinated but they are not going to police this activity.  I do not have a problem either way vaccinated or not.  We are getting the vaccine not because we want it but because to see our son in AK we need it so we do not have to quarantine. Although that requirement is being dropped.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 17, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> You are falling for the fake news.  I know many people that just don't want the vaccine and they are not Trump supporters.  Don't be so blind.



Right!  If I recall a certain politician was calling the vaccines Trump Vaccines and they did not plan on using those.  Yet we are!  So some Trump haters do not want the vaccine because they think Trump pushed through.  And the people I know are certainly not Republican,  Blanket statements regarding a political party or race or religion are what divide.


----------



## kancamagus (May 17, 2021)

While the rest of you guys bicker worse than the Statler and Waldorf muppets, here’s an actual update related to the thread topic. A Basin has dropped all mask requirements - indoors and outside. Lift lines, trails, the bar, tailgating on the beach, all pretty much pre-COVID normal. 

I’d estimate that probably 70% of people stopped wearing masks in lift lines, and apart from the staff, no one was wearing masks in the bar.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 18, 2021)

kancamagus said:


> While the rest of you guys bicker worse than the Statler and Waldorf muppets, here’s an actual update related to the thread topic. A Basin has dropped all mask requirements - indoors and outside. Lift lines, trails, the bar, tailgating on the beach, all pretty much pre-COVID normal.
> 
> I’d estimate that probably 70% of people stopped wearing masks in lift lines, and apart from the staff, no one was wearing masks in the bar.



That is because Colorado as a whole are relaxing restrictions because the numbers are so low.  They plan on being at pre-covid state by July.  A Basin stays tight with the state to ensure everything is by the rules.  They did not go there on their own,


----------



## Hawk (May 18, 2021)

The issue on forums is that people aren't giving their opinions, they are pushing them.  I myself am guilty of that.  In retrospect I don't like when I do that.

So I posted this on another forum that has the same exact argument going on.  This is how I fell.

"My whole family is vaccinated. We are all back to normal. I have not worn a mask all week except when I enter work or a business requiring a mask. No big deal. In my opinion, the vaccine works and I have no worries and will conduct business as I see fit. I'm not going to bitch, complain or ridicule other people who wear masks, not wear mask, get shots or don't. It's really not any of my business. Maybe more people should conduct their lives like this. I think we would all be better off.

this whole thing is going to get better. I promise."


----------



## boston_e (May 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The issue on forums is that people aren't giving their opinions, they are pushing them.  I myself am guilty of that.  In retrospect I don't like when I do that.
> 
> So I posted this on another forum that has the same exact argument going on.  This is how I fell.
> 
> ...


Except it is all of our business in that a part of the overall effectiveness of vaccines to society is based on herd immunity.  There is also a very small percentage of people who have legitimate reasons that they cannot take a vaccine and they need to depend on others to get it to reduce the spread of diseases (others included not just Covid).  It is completely irresponsible to not get your vaccines.


----------



## boston_e (May 18, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> And who knows how effective the vaccines with be against variants sure to make the rounds among the anti-masker anti-vaxxers.  It's hard to believe this is the same country that wiped out polio, smallpox and measles.


Except we still see occasional measles outbreaks because morons don’t vaccinate their kids.


----------



## boston_e (May 18, 2021)

abc said:


> In the mean time, the virus will mutate and change. People will continue to get sick or get well (or die). It's a uncertainty we'll have to live with.



if the virus can’t spread it can’t mutate... another reason it can affect all of us if some idiot chooses to not get vaccinated because of how they “feel” about it.


----------



## Harvey (May 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> It's really not any of my business.


This feels good, but it's overly simplistic. A vaccine is not like a seat belt.  It's not just the person who opts out who gets their head cracked.

Look I know you'd never get away with restricting the unvaccinated or creating ID.  Not in America. We're going to have to hope a high percentage of people get vaxxed and that it's enough to beat it.  I don't see any other choice.

I bet there is a huge population that are taking bigger risks with alcohol, but sitting out the vax for safety reasons.


----------



## drjeff (May 19, 2021)

Let's put this in skiiing/riding perspective terms here.

Pretty sure we all consider skiing/riding here as AZ regulars to be a safe sport.

Historically nationwide in the US there are roughly 50 deaths a year from skiing/riding.

Does that cause the same uproar as the relatively speaking proportionately smaller negative vaccination side effects we're seeing?

Sure it's a personal choice. The data though for getting vaccinated in strong


----------



## Edd (May 19, 2021)

Regarding the ski industry, Gunstock this week has made masks optional for employees and guests who are vaccinated. I dearly want my employer to do the same.


----------



## thebigo (May 19, 2021)

Edd said:


> Regarding the ski industry, Gunstock this week has made masks optional for employees and guests who are vaccinated. I dearly want my employer to do the same.


The guys on the floor, at my organization, were informed that OSHA is the holdup with respect to mask policy. Apparently, the organization will not change policy until OSHA changes guidance.


----------



## thebigo (May 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> The issue on forums is that people aren't giving their opinions, they are pushing them.



Agree and never understood it. One would assume that if an individual's goal is to persuade others on political topics, they could easily find a larger audience than a northeast ski forum in May. I often wonder if those attempting to persuade others, are actually attempting to persuade themselves.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 19, 2021)

From CDC site


> Although COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting sick, scientists *are still learning *how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms. Early data show that vaccines help keep people with no symptoms from spreading COVID-19, but we are learning more as more people get vaccinated.
> 
> We’re also still learning *how long* COVID-19 vaccines protect people.
> 
> For these reasons, people who have been fully vaccinated against COVID-19 should keep taking precautions until we know more, like wearing a mask in indoor public places, avoiding large indoor gatherings, and washing your hands often. Vaccinated people do not need to wear masks outside except in crowds.



So the vaccine does not mean that you will not get covid,  It teaches the immune system how to fight the virus.  To me that might be the perfect breeding ground for a virus to mutate, since it can travel quietly.  Also they are not aware of how long the vaccine will be effective - it that the perfect storm for another outbreak?  Weill be have to be vaccinated for the remainder of our lives every 6-8 months which is what they are predicting.  Based on what the CDC posted on their site this all sounds like a big ass science experiment.


----------



## drjeff (May 19, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> From CDC site
> 
> 
> So the vaccine does not mean that you will not get covid,  It teaches the immune system how to fight the virus.  To me that might be the perfect breeding ground for a virus to mutate, since it can travel quietly.  Also they are not aware of how long the vaccine will be effective - it that the perfect storm for another outbreak?  Weill be have to be vaccinated for the remainder of our lives every 6-8 months which is what they are predicting.  Based on what the CDC posted on their site this all sounds like a big ass science experiment.


Honestly, the efficacy duration topic has way more to do with the simple fact that vaccine testing began roughly 9 months ago, and the data their looking at, while thus far showing that the antibodies are remaining present, and in good quantities, can be concretely reported that they remain for the timeframe they (The CDC) are currently reporting.  Only time will tell how long the antibodies are present and if/when some type of a booster shot may be needed.

Until they (The CDC) starts changing their reporting to we WILL need a booster every such and such a duration from the current we MAY need a booster, then it sure seems like it's more of statement to avoid potential future legal actions than it is a statement based in actually immunological science


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (May 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Except it is all of our business in that a part of the overall effectiveness of vaccines to society is based on herd immunity.  There is also a very small percentage of people who have legitimate reasons that they cannot take a vaccine and they need to depend on others to get it to reduce the spread of diseases (others included not just Covid).  It is completely irresponsible to not get your vaccines.


Moron, take your EXPERIMENTAL "vaccine" and STFU.


----------



## kbroderick (May 20, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> ... Based on what the CDC posted on their site this all sounds like a big ass science experiment.


Yup. And you're participating whether you want to or not; your choice in the matter is between the control group (unvaccinated) and the vaccine-test group. Unfortunately, too many people choosing the control group seems likely to prolong this particular experiment, as it will create more opportunities for viral mutation and thus further experimenting with respect to vaccine efficacy, herd immunity, and survivability (among other factors).


----------



## Hawk (May 20, 2021)

Harvey, Yup I realize that I simplified my reaction.  It is basically how I feel nowadays. I can only take care of what I can control and that means me and maybe my Wife sometimes and possibly my kids if I had some.  But I have come to the decision that the irrational has become the norm.  No one is going to tell anybody anything and convince them.  Things I thought to be foundation principles are now being questioned and the analysis I see is confounding.  Nope society has been corrupted by social media, questionable public figures and all kinds of news sources that lost their true barometer for facts and things will never be the same.  Just an endless steam of regurgitated bull shit.  So I am going to go on with it and live my life.  Focus on the good times like skiing biking music and food and phase out the rest the best I can.

Certainly not going to change it all here that's for sure.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 20, 2021)

boston_e said:


> if the virus can’t spread it can’t mutate... another reason it can affect all of us if some idiot chooses to not get vaccinated because of how they “feel” about it.



But the Vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid it reduces the symptoms.  Why can it not mutate.  It is now facing immune systems that are not as effected by it so it will need to mutate.


----------



## cdskier (May 20, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> But the Vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid it reduces the symptoms.  Why can it not mutate.  It is now facing immune systems that are not as effected by it so it will need to mutate.



In "some" cases it doesn't prevent you from getting it and only reduces the symptoms. In other cases it does prevent you from getting it at all. And it also potentially reduces the chances of an asymptomatic person spreading it. Less spreading in general means less chances for it to mutate.


----------



## Hawk (May 20, 2021)

I don't think you have this right.  The vaccine creates an immune response in your body that makes it create antibodies.  So once you have those, and your system comes in contact with the virus it immediately attacks it and rids itself of it.  So there is very little possibility you could pass it along.  If you come in contact with a mutation then it may or may not kill it depending on the mutation.


----------



## mbedle (May 20, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> But the Vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid it reduces the symptoms.  Why can it not mutate.  It is now facing immune systems that are not as effected by it so it will need to mutate.


Not true - The Pfizer and Maderna vaccines do a really good job of preventing you from contracting Covid (J&J a little less). There are very few documented  breakthrough infections, when compared to the number of people that have been fully vaccinated.


----------



## Domeskier (May 20, 2021)

The idea that a less-than-100% effective vaccine is somehow going to increase the risk of dangerous random mutations against a no-vaccine baseline reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of microbiology.  Viruses are not cunning little homunculi that will themselves into new and more dangerous forms when confronted by vaccine-enhanced immune systems.  They are dumb little bits of genetic code that replicate themselves imperfectly and sometimes mutate.  The likelihood that a dangerous mutation will occur increases in direct proportion to the size of the virus pool.  By reducing the presence of the virus in the environment, any partially effective vaccine will necessarily reduce the likelihood that a dangerous random mutation with occur.


----------



## snoseek (May 20, 2021)

Man I will say I got pretty sick on that second dose for two days. Had to pump out a couple hectic long work days and it straight sucked. Glad that's over. Moving forward covid is over for me. I trust that it will keep me safe and I can finally hug my mother.


----------



## Smellytele (May 20, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Moron, take your EXPERIMENTAL "vaccine" and STFU.


He could come back with "get covid and die idiot"


dblskifanatic said:


> But the Vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid it reduces the symptoms.  Why can it not mutate.  It is now facing immune systems that are not as effected by it so it will need to mutate.


where did you come up with this stupidity?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 21, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Moron, take your EXPERIMENTAL "vaccine" and STFU.


I believe the word you are looking for is MIRACLE vaccine.

Honestly, what more evidence do people need to see about how effective these vaccines have been and the more people who get it, the better.

Look at January.  Very few people had been vaccinated.  2-3+ thousand deaths a day in this country.  

Look at now.  With only 38% of the country fully vaccinated that number has dropped into the hundreds.  Not too difficult to extrapolate where the mortality rate is going to go when we have 70-80% vaccinated.

Look at the horror occurring in India right now with their low vaccination rate.  

This is truly 1+1=2 math at this point.


----------



## Hawk (May 21, 2021)

This is exactly what I am talking about.  The total misunderstanding and propelled mis-information perpetuated by social media and other forms of news sources is what's at issue here.  I'm willing to take a leap of faith on people and say they just got bad information and it's not a lack of intelligence.  For some they are taking the word of people that they deemed trust worthy when they were not.


----------



## drjeff (May 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I believe the word you are looking for is MIRACLE vaccine.
> 
> Honestly, what more evidence do people need to see about how effective these vaccines have been and the more people who get it, the better.
> 
> ...


DHS, I think some of the root cause of the problem is that we actually have some in society questioning in a literal sense, if 1 + 1 actually does equal 2....  And then those that question the folks who question if 1 + 1 equals 2 often face a social media beat down by the blue check mark crew who more often than not are just engaging in a form of cyber bullying...  Truly sad state of affairs in some cases these days...


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 21, 2021)

So folks here are speaking pretty confidently about the prevention of getting covid but even the CDC will not go that far. If there is a new up tick in cases then it will be blamed on variants and then the new stage is set for mutations once again.




> We are still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. Until we know more about how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19, people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 should keep taking precautions in public places like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and washing your hands often.


----------



## boston_e (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So folks here are speaking pretty confidently about the prevention of getting covid but even the CDC will not go that far. If there is a new up tick in cases then it will be blamed on variants and then the new stage is set for mutations once again.


 You are referencing old information in an attempt to fit your false narrative.  Updated on the CDC website as of May 16th, 2021:

Choosing Safer Activities






If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
*Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.*
If you haven’t been vaccinated yet, find a vaccine.









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## boston_e (May 21, 2021)

And more:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html


Vaccine effectiveness studies provide a growing body of evidence that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines offer similar protection in real-world conditions as they have in clinical trial settings, reducing the risk of COVID-19, including severe illness, among people who are fully vaccinated by 90 percent or more. Most vaccine effectiveness data now available are related to mRNA vaccines. Data related to the J&J/Janssen vaccine will be shared when available.

In addition to providing protection against COVID-19, there is increasing evidence that COVID-19 *vaccines also provide protection against COVID-19 infections without symptoms (asymptomatic infections). COVID-19 vaccination can reduce the spread of disease overall, helping protect people around you.*


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> You are referencing old information in an attempt to fit your false narrative.  Updated on the CDC website as of May 16th, 2021:
> 
> Choosing Safer Activities
> 
> ...



So from the page you cited

For now, if you’ve been fully vaccinated:

You should still watch out for symptoms of COVID-19, especially if you’ve been around someone who is sick. If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you should get tested and stay home and away from others.
There are many cases and I guarantee more will surface, of infections after the vaccination.  Will the rate slow, more than likely but I do hold my breath thinking that Covid vaccinations will solve the problem with this virus.


----------



## boston_e (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So from the page you cited
> 
> For now, if you’ve been fully vaccinated:
> 
> You should still watch out for symptoms of COVID-19, especially if you’ve been around someone who is sick. If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you should get tested and stay home and away from others.



Right, because even though vaccines are very effective, they are still not 100%.  I'm not sure what your point is on this?  Are you saying don't bother getting vaccinated because it is "only" very effective not 100% effective?


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Right, because even though vaccines are very effective, they are still not 100%.  I'm not sure what your point is on this?  Are you saying don't bother getting vaccinated because it is "only" very effective not 100% effective?



Note:  I am full vaccinated, but I am not going to think that I have nothing more to worry about.  I think that there will be a new spike.  Also, there are cases already being reported about people becoming infected after being fully vaccinated.  It is not black and white - there are gray areas that we do not know about. Unfortunately, there has been many confusing messages through this whole thing.  But I am not going to apologize for not trusting CDC WHO or the government agencies.

Also noted:  From day one of the lock downs, my wife and I took to a stay outside approach.  When restaurants opened up we visited then often, when we could fly we did, we drove to and from many states.  We lived our lives as normal as possible.  We are not anti vax or anti mask - but there have been some really flakey rules put out there in terms of mandates and they have been so different from state to state.  I honestly believe that there are many people that think covid is floating around in the air outside of your home.


----------



## drjeff (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So from the page you cited
> 
> For now, if you’ve been fully vaccinated:
> 
> ...


True, and what we are seeing in those very small number of cases, is that those vaccinated who may end up contracting COVID, aren't having the severe COVID symptoms, the ones that can require hospitalization and potentially fatal outcomes, compared to those who haven't been vaccinated and contracted COVID.

The positives of those who have been vaccinated and may contract COVID at a later date, are definitely there


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> True, and what we are seeing in those very small number of cases, is that those vaccinated who may end up contracting COVID, aren't having the severe COVID symptoms, the ones that can require hospitalization and potentially fatal outcomes, compared to those who haven't been vaccinated and contracted COVID.
> 
> The positives of those who have been vaccinated and may contract COVID at a later date, are definitely there



I agree - Isn't that the point of the vaccine to teach you immune system on how the attack the virus?  I do not argue your point.  I have been only trying to make the point that the realm of possibility for mutations and continual spread is still a possibility.  I do not think that everyone should be over confident.


----------



## cdskier (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I agree - Isn't that the point of the vaccine to teach you immune system on how the attack the virus?  I do not argue your point.  I have been only trying to make the point that the realm of possibility for mutations and continual spread is still a possibility.  I do not think that everyone should be over confident.



Of course it is still a possibility. No one ever said it wasn't. However it is a substantially LOWER possibility than without the vaccines. And the more people that get the vaccines, the lower that possibility chance continues to go. That should be the key takeaway. Unless we can 100% eliminate the virus globally, a "possibility" of something will always exist.


----------



## skiur (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I agree - Isn't that the point of the vaccine to teach you immune system on how the attack the virus?  I do not argue your point.  I have been only trying to make the point that the realm of possibility for mutations and continual spread is still a possibility.  I do not think that everyone should be over confident.


People get sick and die.  This is a fact of life and will never change. Covid will never go away.  It will be here forever just like the flu, common cold and other similar viruses.  Should we hide under our bed for the rest of our lives because there is a slight chance we can catch covid and a minuscule chance it could kill us???


----------



## boston_e (May 21, 2021)

skiur said:


> People get sick and die.  This is a fact of life and will never change. Covid will never go away.  It will be here forever just like the flu, common cold and other similar viruses.  Should we hide under our bed for the rest of our lives because there is a slight chance we can catch covid and a minuscule chance it could kill us???


No but with very few exceptions everyone should get vaccinated as soon as it is available to them.... and if everyone did it is very possible that it could all but go away.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Of course it is still a possibility. No one ever said it wasn't. However it is a substantially LOWER possibility than without the vaccines. And the more people that get the vaccines, the lower that possibility chance continues to go. That should be the key takeaway. Unless we can 100% eliminate the virus globally, a "possibility" of something will always exist.



So my point is there will always be a possibility of variants just like the flu each year.  Just like the flu vaccine, it does not stop all variants.  Covid Sars-2 was used for this vaccine, Covid-19 maybe used for future vaccines.  The objective is always to try and keep up.


----------



## Smellytele (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So my point is there will always be a possibility of variants just like the flu each year.  Just like the flu vaccine, it does not stop all variants.  Covid Sars-2 was used for this vaccine, Covid-19 maybe used for future vaccines.  The objective is always to try and keep up.


So are you saying get the vaccine as it is 90-95% effective against the original strain then move forward? Or are you saying something different where we still wear masks and not congregate with others?
Or something in between?


----------



## skiur (May 21, 2021)

I'm a little confused as to what point dblskifanatic is trying to make as well.


----------



## Edd (May 21, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So are you saying get the vaccine as it is 90-95% effective against the original strain then move forward? Or are you saying something different where we still wear masks and not congregate with others?
> Or something in between?


It’s hard to tell. He’s said many times how much he travels and eats out but follows the guidelines and wants a normal life and is getting the vaccine reluctantly because he doesn’t know what’s in it but he’s getting it so he’s ok but still he’s got some doubt so don’t be overconfident and on and on and on….he’s not anti mask or anti vaccine but he’s got some doubts and questions and on and on…


----------



## machski (May 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So my point is there will always be a possibility of variants just like the flu each year.  Just like the flu vaccine, it does not stop all variants.  Covid Sars-2 was used for this vaccine, Covid-19 maybe used for future vaccines.  The objective is always to try and keep up.


One point you are missing on the m-RNA vaccines anyway, these target the spike protein of the virus, which while slightly changed in the mutation strains, is still an integral part of the mutated viruses.  Probably why they are still quite effective against most of the known mutated strains right now.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So are you saying get the vaccine as it is 90-95% effective against the original strain then move forward? Or are you saying something different where we still wear masks and not congregate with others?
> Or something in between?



A majority of the population have gotten the vaccine thus far.  The concern from the CDC is - how effective will the vaccines be against the variants that are already present.  I loss track but there are at least 3 know variants.  We are not going to stop this virus from mutating so we will always be in some kind of annual covid vaccine protocol like the flu.  The flu vaccine is always modified and uses strains that are studied and surveilled.  

The point - The same will probably apply to covid vaccines - at this time they are suggesting 6-8 months for a refresh (still unknown).  The fact that people can still get covid albeit will lesser symptoms tells me that it still has opportunity to spread.   IDK - feels like a big fucken science experiment going forward.

I am not saying anything about masks, That is a different topic as I think there will be a certain percentage that will self mandate out of future fears.


----------



## cdskier (May 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> A majority of the population have gotten the vaccine thus far.  The concern from the CDC is - how effective will the vaccines be against the variants that are already present.  I loss track but there are at least 3 know variants.  We are not going to stop this virus from mutating so we will always be in some kind of annual covid vaccine protocol like the flu.  The flu vaccine is always modified and uses strains that are studied and surveilled.
> 
> The point - The same will probably apply to covid vaccines - at this time they are suggesting 6-8 months for a refresh (still unknown).  The fact that people can still get covid albeit will lesser symptoms tells me that it still has opportunity to spread.   IDK - feels like a big fucken science experiment going forward.
> 
> I am not saying anything about masks, That is a different topic as I think there will be a certain percentage that will self mandate out of future fears.



There is a lot of inaccurate information you're reading somewhere or misinterpretation of information or just a basic misunderstanding of how certain things work. The flu is different than COVID. The Vaccines target each differently as well. Using the need to get annual flu shots as the logic behind why we'd need annual COVID vaccines is not a good assumption to make. Influenza is actually a group of different viruses and each strain mutates quite rapidly. With flu shots, we're actually trying to basically make an educated guess which particular strains will be prevalent in the upcoming flu season. Sometimes they're right. Sometimes they're not. But by the following flu season, you're almost guaranteed to have completely different strains being dominant, which is why you need to make a new shot.

As for the suggestion of 6-8 months for a booster, nowhere has that actually been made. If that was accurate, the people that got their shots back in December would already need to be lining up for boosters. The 6-8 month number that people keep hearing is taken substantially out of context. What scientists have said is that so far, studies show that the body still has good immunity _*at least*_ 6-8 months after vaccination. They don't know how much longer than that it will last because you literally need to wait and see what goes on as time progresses. Scientists can't hop in a time machine and jump forward 2 years to see if people still have sufficient immunity. They need to simply wait until we get to that point to see what people still have in their bodies. Immunity could last only a few more months...or it could last years. We simply won't know until we actually hit those time-frames since people were first vaccinated.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There is a lot of inaccurate information you're reading somewhere or misinterpretation of information or just a basic misunderstanding of how certain things work. The flu is different than COVID. The Vaccines target each differently as well. Using the need to get annual flu shots as the logic behind why we'd need annual COVID vaccines is not a good assumption to make. Influenza is actually a group of different viruses and each strain mutates quite rapidly. With flu shots, we're actually trying to basically make an educated guess which particular strains will be prevalent in the upcoming flu season. Sometimes they're right. Sometimes they're not. But by the following flu season, you're almost guaranteed to have completely different strains being dominant, which is why you need to make a new shot.
> 
> As for the suggestion of 6-8 months for a booster, nowhere has that actually been made. If that was accurate, the people that got their shots back in December would already need to be lining up for boosters. The 6-8 month number that people keep hearing is taken substantially out of context. What scientists have said is that so far, studies show that the body still has good immunity _*at least*_ 6-8 months after vaccination. They don't know how much longer than that it will last because you literally need to wait and see what goes on as time progresses. Scientists can't hop in a time machine and jump forward 2 years to see if people still have sufficient immunity. They need to simply wait until we get to that point to see what people still have in their bodies. Immunity could last only a few more months...or it could last years. We simply won't know until we actually hit those time-frames since people were first vaccinated.











						Covid-19 vaccine boosters may be necessary at some point. Here's what you need to know | CNN
					

Vaccine makers are preparing for a next possible phase of the Covid-19 vaccine rollout: booster doses.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2021)

machski said:


> One point you are missing on the m-RNA vaccines anyway, these target the spike protein of the virus, which while slightly changed in the mutation strains, is still an integral part of the mutated viruses.  Probably why they are still quite effective against most of the known mutated strains right now.



This is correct, and the reason why is because the spike protein is essentially the key with which the virus uses to enter our cells.  The fear is a future variant's spike will change enough to be naive to the vaccines, so the next gen COVID19 vaccines they'll develop will likely feature something different from the virus than the spike protein, some other protein for our body to recognize.


----------



## cdskier (May 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Covid-19 vaccine boosters may be necessary at some point. Here's what you need to know | CNN
> 
> 
> Vaccine makers are preparing for a next possible phase of the Covid-19 vaccine rollout: booster doses.
> ...


This is one of those stupid media things where they write about stuff that gets people riled up about something with little basis in fact. Or they try to force scientists and experts into a corner and make definitive statements that they simply can't make until we have more data. The sheer number of times words like "may, might, possible, possibly, unknown, etc" are used in that article is ridiculous.

The most important thing to note at this point from that article is:


> Currently, "the need for and timing for COVID-19 booster doses have not been established. No additional doses are recommended at this time," the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention notes on its website.


Worry about the rest once we actually KNOW for sure. Until then, everything else is just conjecture and speculation and really pointless to waste time thinking about.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> This is one of those stupid media things where they write about stuff that gets people riled up about something with little basis in fact. Or they try to force scientists and experts into a corner and make definitive statements that they simply can't make until we have more data. The sheer number of times words like "may, might, possible, possibly, unknown, etc" are used in that article is ridiculous.
> 
> The most important thing to note at this point from that article is:
> 
> Worry about the rest once we actually KNOW for sure. Until then, everything else is just conjecture and speculation and really pointless to waste time thinking about.


OK









						Pfizer, Moderna Say Booster Shots Probably Needed
					

A third dose of either Pfizer or Moderna vaccines could be available by the end of the year, top executives of both companies said.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## cdskier (May 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again...this is all purely conjecture and speculation. None of those statements are actually based on any conclusive scientific study data (because they simply don't exist yet until we hit those time-frames).



> “We are studying the durability of the antibody response,” he said. “It seems strong but there is some waning of that and no doubt the variants challenge ... they make these vaccines work harder. So I think for planning purposes, *planning purposes only*, I think we should expect that we may have to boost.”



Your use of this article again illustrates how easily people take things out of context. Basically what they're saying is "let's plan for a worst case scenario so we're ready for it in case it happens." What the articles leave out is that there's also a possibility that one isn't needed for years (or at all). We simply do not yet know (one way or the other). It depends on a lot of factors. Does the antibody response decline over time to a point where it no longer offers effective levels of immunity? We don't know. Will the virus mutate in a way that renders the current vaccines ineffective? We don't know. And unless someone has a time machine, we simply won't know until we hit those points...

And honestly, if a booster is needed at some point, what's the big deal?


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 24, 2021)

You are making my point - nobody knows.  But they are preparing for a booster "just in case".  It is a real life science experiment that we all get to participate in.  In fact, the UK has initiated a new trial to assess a third ‘booster’ dose of seven different Covid-19 vaccines.

yup no big deal - just a conversation.


----------



## jt10000 (May 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> A majority of the population have gotten the vaccine thus far.


Pretty sure it's less than 50% fully vaccinated at the moment.


----------



## Quietman (May 24, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Pretty sure it's less than 50% fully vaccinated at the moment.


----------



## Smellytele (May 24, 2021)

Quietman said:


> View attachment 51724


So looking at those numbers the reason the overall is below 50% for 1 shot is the vaccine is not approved for kids under 12


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2021)

Nine states have hit >=70% of adults vaccinated with at least 1 shot.

Connecticut
Hawaii
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
Rhode Island
Vermont


----------



## drjeff (May 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So looking at those numbers the reason the overall is below 50% for 1 shot is the vaccine is not approved for kids under 12


That's a good chunk of the reason. Additional reasons are that the opening of the window for the 12 to 16 age group was only about 2 weeks ago, and some of that data, in addition to some adults that have gotten dose 1, but not dose 2 yet over that time frame as well.

The reality is, that for those now over the age of 18, the majority of those who want to get vaccinated have done so.  The amount of time, and effort, and $$ that is likely to be spent to try and increase the percentage over 18 will be substantial, with probably not much of a change in the percentages, especially as society opens back up and if the trend of lower and lower COVID numbers and deaths continues.  

Are we actually at a herd immunity standpoint? 

Not sure. 

Are we there within the "most vulnerable" portion of the population? 

Maybe so


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 25, 2021)

We are not at herd immunity - there is not actual percentage but 70-80% vaccinated/recovered from covid is what is being targeted by many health organizations.

This is a good description from John Hopkins

What are the possibilities for how herd immunity could play out?​In the worst case (for example, if we stop distancing and mask wearing and remove limits on crowded indoor gatherings), we will continue to see additional waves of surging infection. The virus will infect—and kill—many more people before our vaccination program reaches everyone. And deaths aren’t the only problem. The more people the virus infects, the more chances it has to mutate. This can increase transmission risk, decrease the effectiveness of vaccines, and make the pandemic harder to control in the long run.

In the best case, we vaccinate people as quickly as possible while maintaining distancing and other prevention measures to keep infection levels low. This will take concerted effort on everyone’s part. But if we continue vaccinating the population at the current rate, in the U.S. we should see meaningful effects on transmission by the end of the summer of 2021. While there is not going to be a “herd immunity day” where life immediately goes back to normal, this approach gives us the best long-term chance of beating the pandemic.

The most likely outcome is somewhere in the middle of these extremes. During the spring and early summer (or longer, if efforts to vaccinate the population stall), we will likely continue to see infection rates rise and fall. When infection rates fall, we may relax distancing measures—but this can lead to a rebound in infections as people interact with each other more closely. We then may need to re-implement these measures to bring infections down again.


----------



## Smellytele (May 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> That's a good chunk of the reason. Additional reasons are that the opening of the window for the 12 to 16 age group was only about 2 weeks ago, and some of that data, in addition to some adults that have gotten dose 1, but not dose 2 yet over that time frame as well.
> 
> The reality is, that for those now over the age of 18, the majority of those who want to get vaccinated have done so.  The amount of time, and effort, and $$ that is likely to be spent to try and increase the percentage over 18 will be substantial, with probably not much of a change in the percentages, especially as society opens back up and if the trend of lower and lower COVID numbers and deaths continues.
> 
> ...


As for 18+ getting both shots - I have 2 sons who fall in that and have had their 1st shots and are getting their 2nd this week. Oldest son just got his 2nd last week.


----------



## drjeff (May 25, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We are not at herd immunity - there is not actual percentage but 70-80% vaccinated/recovered from covid is what is being targeted by many health organizations.
> 
> This is a good description from John Hopkins
> 
> ...


If that 70-80% figure is accurate for herd immunity status, chances are that we are getting close. 165 or so million with at least 1 dose, a little under 35 million confirmed cases of COVID in the US (sure there certainly are some who are statistics in both of those categories, no doubt about that) so that gets to somewhere around 200 million people. Then the variable is, how many people, asymptomatically had COVID, and never got tested/confirmed that they had it? Those estimates have been all over the map with, but it seems to be agreed my most public health folks, that that undiagnosed, asymptomatic COVID case number is probably close to, if not more than the number of actually diagnosed cases, which would add say another 25 million or so to the total vaccinated and/or had and recovered total, and now we're getting into that 70% range.

My personal hunch is that if we're not at herd immunity yet, we're quite close, and as I stated before, it sure seems that within the "most vulnerable" population that we are there.

Doubtful if we can actually have an accurate number of the had COVID and recovered population, as there certainly are a significant number of people who have had asymptomatic cases and if the need for testing for either contact tracing or some other obligation where a negative test was needed at a certain time, they may have never known


----------



## drjeff (May 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> As for 18+ getting both shots - I have 2 sons who fall in that and have had their 1st shots and are getting their 2nd this week. Oldest son just got his 2nd last week.


I've got a 15 yr old who is in that had 1, waiting on for the calendar to reach a certain day for dose 2, category as well


----------



## boston_e (May 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I've got a 15 yr old who is in that had 1, waiting on for the calendar to reach a certain day for dose 2, category as well


My 12 and 15 year olds have both had 1 so far.

When we went there was not a high demand line out the door, but there was certainly a steady trickle of people going through so hopefully there is a good percentage of the unvaccinated who have just been waiting for convenience, or for easy availability so as not to be waiting in long lines etc.


----------



## flakeydog (May 25, 2021)

There is this (see map, % w/1 shot, yellow is <40%, dark green >60%): vaccination rates vary by state/region.  We may get up to 60+ as a nation but there are likely to be areas that never get above 50%.  That leaves enough room for the virus to fester a bit in those areas leaving open the door for this to come back in another form.  I see this as a bit of a team effort type of thing for the greater good.  Clearly a lot of others do not see it that way.

Oh- and if we are not going to use all of the vaccine, send some to Canada! asap!  Border states are getting killed here economically.


----------



## Smellytele (May 25, 2021)

remember the population under 12 is almost 50mil so 15% can't be vaccinated


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## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> remember the population under 12 is almost 50mil so 15% can't be vaccinated



By early 2Q22 I think even 5 year olds will be able to receive vaccine.  PFE's been pretty aggressive with this program to their credit.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2021)

Today we officially hit 1/2 of Americans vaccinated.


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## jt10000 (May 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Today we officially hit 1/2 of Americans vaccinated.


Half of all US *adults* are fully vaccinated.


----------



## Harvey (May 25, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Half of all US *adults* are fully vaccinated.


That's what I heard.


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## boston_e (May 25, 2021)

jt10000 said:


> Half of all US *adults* are fully vaccinated.


The various trackers that I’m finding online agree.... and that 50% of the total population has received at least one dose.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 25, 2021)

Isn't the direction we are heading a combination Flu / Coronavirus vaccine taken annually?  This new class of mRNA vaccine seems to be a game changer.  Much greater efficacy than traditional Flu vaccines that many folks passed on because they were just an educated guess. 

Sign me up.  $40 well spent if not free depending on your insurance situation.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Isn't the direction we are heading a combination Flu / Coronavirus vaccine taken annually?  This new class of mRNA vaccine seems to be a game changer.  Much greater efficacy than traditional Flu vaccines that many folks passed on because they were just an educated guess.



In terms of influenza the most cutting-edge thing being worked on is a universal vaccine which would replace the trivalent vaccine.  Still years away, but that will be the real game-changer.  Millions of uninformed people dont get the flu shot each year because, _"it only works 40% of the time anyway", _and it would remove that unfortunate issue & perhaps dramatically increase flu vaccine uptake, or so is the hope.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> In terms of influenza the most cutting-edge thing being worked on is a universal vaccine which would replace the trivalent vaccine.  Still years away, but that will be the real game-changer.  Millions of uninformed people dont get the flu shot each year because, _"it only works 40% of the time anyway", _and it would remove that unfortunate issue & perhaps dramatically increase flu vaccine uptake, or so is the hope.



Hard to say if a "universal" flu shot will result in a dramatic increase in uptake.  

Looking back at my own history; prior to 2012 when I started working in healthcare, I maybe got the flu shot 2-3 times in my adult life. Those occurrences were when it was convenient and "free."  Since then I always have, but only because it's essentially required to work in healthcare.   

It wasn't because I was uninformed that I didn't get the shot, I just had that invincible mentality that many young people do.  I wasn't required to have one as a student at UVM or any prior occupation after college. Hell I probably didn't even get a routine check up for close to a decade following graduation from college even though I always had health insurance.  Men in particular simply avoid the doctor in their 20s and 30s.  Women less so only because of gynecological needs. That mentality only starts to change for most when "wake up calls" happen. Either when a loved one gets sick or becoming a parent seems to be the two big ones. 

I think convenient and "free" really are the two most important factors in flu or Covid shot uptake vs efficacy.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 26, 2021)

I've never gotten the flue shot.  Mainly becasue in my adult life I am certain I've never had the flu.  As the page is turning towards 45, I have at least started to think about getting it.  I'd be likely even more likely to get it if it was included with a COVID booster this fall.


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## kingslug (May 26, 2021)

Never got the flu shot..never got the flu..hell.. I barely ever get sick. That one day may change though.


----------



## tumbler (May 26, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> There is this (see map, % w/1 shot, yellow is <40%, dark green >60%): vaccination rates vary by state/region.  We may get up to 60+ as a nation but there are likely to be areas that never get above 50%.  That leaves enough room for the virus to fester a bit in those areas leaving open the door for this to come back in another form.  I see this as a bit of a team effort type of thing for the greater good.  Clearly a lot of others do not see it that way.
> 
> Oh- and if we are not going to use all of the vaccine, send some to Canada! asap!  Border states are getting killed here economically.
> View attachment 51725


The colors on this map tell an interesting and telling story...


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## dblskifanatic (May 26, 2021)

tumbler said:


> The colors on this map tell an interesting and telling story...



yes it does but we will leave that alone


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## dblskifanatic (May 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Never got the flu shot..never got the flu..hell.. I barely ever get sick. That one day may change though.



I never got the flu shot either.  My father did not either, but at age 50 his doctor suggested getting the flu shot and he would get sick as heck within two weeks.  So after a few years he stopped and then at 70 his doctor required that he take it.  In fact most of my family do not get the flu shot.

In my case I cannot remember the last time I got really sick..  I did have a 3 day fever back in February of last year before lock down.  Took Advil and slept for a day I was fine.  So not sure what that was.


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## kingslug (May 26, 2021)

What sux about never getting sick is that when you do...well..it sux.


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## 2Planker (May 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I never got the flu shot either.  My father did not either, but at age 50 his doctor suggested getting the flu shot and he would get sick as heck within two weeks.  So after a few years he stopped and then at 70 his doctor required that he take it.  In fact most of my family do not get the flu shot.
> 
> In my case I cannot remember the last time I got really sick.. * I did have a 3 day fever back in February of last year before lock down.*  Took Advil and slept for a day I was fine.  So not sure what that was.


Probably was Covid......


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## Hawk (May 26, 2021)

I was feeling sick this year so I got tested.  Both the rapid and the more accurate lab test that takes 2 days.  Both came out negative.  In my opinion( and just mine) if you get sick get tested.  I go to work everyday and I would not want to come it and get other people sick.  So for me getting a result before going back was SOP.  Actually before I went back to my regular mtb with friends I waited for the results.  It's the kind of a courtesy that should be extended.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Probably was Covid......



We will never know!


----------



## icecoast1 (May 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We will never know!


Cant you get your blood tested for antibodies, or are they not doing that anymore?


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## KustyTheKlown (May 26, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Cant you get your blood tested for antibodies, or are they not doing that anymore?



not covered by most insurances, but available


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## 2Planker (May 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> not covered by most insurances, but available


$400-500 and usually not covered


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## Andrew B. (May 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> $400-500 and usually not covered


Used to be (6 months ago) if you donated blood to Red Cross they gave you a free anti-body test.


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## 2Planker (May 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Used to be (6 months ago) if you donated blood to Red Cross they gave you a free anti-body test.


Still true, not just Red Cross but all donation centers


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2021)

FUD corrections:

1) Everybody who isn't a child who says, _"I've never had the flu"_ has actually had the flu.
2) It is not possible to get the flu from the flu shot.
3) An OTC at-home COVID19 antibody test was approved last month = $129






						elicity: At-home lab testing, overseen by healthcare professionals
					






					elicity.health


----------



## Andrew B. (May 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> FUD corrections:
> 
> 1) Everybody who isn't a child who says, _"I've never had the flu"_ has actually had the flu.
> 2) It is not possible to get the flu from the flu shot.
> ...


I know two folks who got Guillain-Barré syndrome from the flu shot and won’t take the vaccine because of that experience. Very un-likely


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## kingslug (May 27, 2021)

Well if I had the flu I don't remember it. Had pneumonia once and once had something no one knows what it was. Our entire ski group got sick at Whistler. I think that was something in the air ducts in the hotel..worst thing I ever had..heard they had a problem with that.


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## dblskifanatic (May 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Cant you get your blood tested for antibodies, or are they not doing that anymore?



already have the vaccine.  I wish i would have but then I would have to pay for the test.


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## dblskifanatic (May 27, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I know two folks who got Guillain-Barré syndrome from the flu shot and won’t take the vaccine because of that experience. Very un-likely



My father may not have had the flu but always got sick as shit shortly after his flu shot.


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## 2Planker (May 27, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Well if I had the flu I don't remember it. Had pneumonia once and once had something no one knows what it was. Our entire ski group got sick at Whistler. I think that was something in the air ducts in the hotel..worst thing I ever had..heard they had a problem with that.


Hmm sound like  Legionaires Disease


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## cdskier (May 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Hmm sound like  Legionaires Disease


Same thing that actually popped into my mind when I read that...


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## kingslug (May 27, 2021)

It knocked out our whole group..I got lucky and it hit me when I got home..so the doctor gives me some medicine with codeine in it..I wake up in the kitchen covered in blood..coming from the hole in my lip when I passed out and hit the counter top with my face...it was just awesome....


----------



## boston_e (May 28, 2021)

Circling back to the original topic of this thread.... now that the effectiveness of the vaccines seem to be steering the world back towards "normal", does anyone thing any of the covid related changes to ski resorts will actually be permanent?

The only one i can think of is ticket kiosks maybe, and those were likely making their way in regardless of covid.

Anything else?


----------



## Edd (May 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Circling back to the original topic of this thread.... now that the effectiveness of the vaccines seem to be steering the world back towards "normal", does anyone thing any of the covid related changes to ski resorts will actually be permanent?
> 
> The only one i can think of is ticket kiosks maybe, and those were likely making their way in regardless of covid.
> 
> Anything else?


Pretty sure Gunstock will be limiting day ticket sales to keep crowds down a bit. It was a better experience this year for pass holders as far as that goes.


----------



## spiderpig (May 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Circling back to the original topic of this thread.... now that the effectiveness of the vaccines seem to be steering the world back towards "normal", does anyone thing any of the covid related changes to ski resorts will actually be permanent?
> 
> The only one i can think of is ticket kiosks maybe, and those were likely making their way in regardless of covid.
> 
> Anything else?


People requesting to ride the lift alone


----------



## jt10000 (May 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Circling back to the original topic of this thread.... now that the effectiveness of the vaccines seem to be steering the world back towards "normal", does anyone thing any of the covid related changes to ski resorts will actually be permanent?
> 
> The only one i can think of is ticket kiosks maybe, and those were likely making their way in regardless of covid.
> 
> Anything else?


I hope more outdoor seating ,more food trucks, more open windows on building and shuttle buses. Not easy, but more space in lodges would be good. I hope added outdoor seating could reduce crowding in lodges.


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## dblskifanatic (Sep 13, 2021)

So I pulled this line from a post from someone else months ago


*Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.*
So the vaccinations have created a false sense of security for many because of the messaging around it like the statement above.  Yet more and more people are getting Covid after being vaccinated and there are some bad cases.

Interestingly enough, our son got Covid in basic training last summer (dragged him down for a few days), military was requiring the vaccine and he got the two Moderna doses in May - now about three and a half months later he has Covid again and he is sounding pretty bad and quarantined for a 6th time in 1.5 years. 

It was known that the vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid but the symptoms should be asymptomatic or minimal (like a cold).  If that is the case, we should have stayed masked since those vaccinated could become or probably are a silent super spreader under the guise of living life as back to normal.

Many health organizations are now stating that Covid will now be like the flu and will mutate year after year.  Heck in the past year there have been several mutations.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I pulled this line from a post from someone else months ago
> 
> 
> *Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.*
> ...


Vaccine doesn’t stop 100% of cases nor does it stop 100% from being hospitalized nor from dying. Is it better than not getting vaccinated? Yes much. 1 example does not make it useless and it people reposting 1 example (or 50) just gets more idiots to not get the shot.


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## kbroderick (Sep 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I pulled this line from a post from someone else months ago
> 
> 
> *Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.*
> ...


The early data (based primarily on viral presence detected in the nose/throat of vaccinated and infected persons) suggested that their viral loads were low enough that they'd be unlikely to have a statistically significant impact on infections. More-recent data has suggested that, particularly with delta, those loads are high enough to be concerning, so they've updated the guidelines (again). Edited to add: of course, all of that is based on reports from generally trustworthy sources but not from peer-reviewed scientific papers, as one might expect with such a rapidly changing situation, so probably best taken with several grains of salt on the rim of a margarita glass.

Anecdotally, I'm aware of at least two breakthrough infections where a too-young-to-be-vaccinated child apparently infected a parent, who then experienced enough symptoms to affect day-to-day activities but not enough to go to the hospital (in both cases, though, the other parent was not infected). So that seems consistent with "a lot better than not getting vaccinated".

The NYT ran an article last weekend that put the current estimated risk of a breakthrough infection at between 1 in 5k and 1 in 10k depending on the overall vaccination rate in the area (i.e. on a daily basis, a vaccinated person had a risk between 1:5000 and 1:10000 of getting a breakthrough infection). If my math is right, that comes out to something like 3-7% over the course of a year. So small but certainly significant (if patrol said "there's a 7% that chute is going to slide when you ski it", I'd be taking another way down, not that it would be open, but if someone told me "there's a 3-7% chance of you getting caught in a backcountry slide this winter", that probably wouldn't keep me from getting out).


----------



## skiur (Sep 13, 2021)

The chance for a healthy vaccinated person to catch covid and get sick is very small.  To get sick enough to be hospitalized is extremely small.  The chance of a healthy vaccinated person dieing from covid is almost zero.  This holds true for Delta varient too.  If you are healthy and vaccinated you have extremely little to worry about.  As for passing it to a non vaccinated person, that is their problem, they should have gotten vaccinated.


----------



## kbroderick (Sep 13, 2021)

skiur said:


> The chance for a healthy vaccinated person to catch covid and get sick is very small.  To get sick enough to be hospitalized is extremely small.  The chance of a healthy vaccinated person dieing from covid is almost zero.  This holds true for Delta varient too.  If you are healthy and vaccinated you have extremely little to worry about.  As for passing it to a non vaccinated person, that is their problem, they should have gotten vaccinated.



There are a few assumptions in there, some of which I might've made before having kids:

1. If you need to provide care for dependent children or adults, anything that knocks you on your ass (eg the flu, questionable sushi, mild covid, etc) becomes a problem, not just an unpleasant experience. The same is true if calling in sick to work creates serious problems for you or your employer.

2. Kids can't get vaccinated, so while I have limited sympathy for most unvaccinated adults in the US, "they should have gotten vaccinated" doesn't apply to everyone. And yes, the pediatric mortality numbers are tiny, but today doesn't mean much if your kid is in that small percentage or the slightly higher one that lands in the hospital.


----------



## abc (Sep 13, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Kids can't get vaccinated, so while I have limited sympathy for most unvaccinated adults in the US, "they should have gotten vaccinated" doesn't apply to everyone. And yes, the pediatric mortality numbers are tiny, but today doesn't mean much if your kid is in that small percentage or the slightly higher one that lands in the hospital.


Kids are at risk of a lot of other dangers. So the risk from Covid I think is *relatively* minor in comparison. 

One vaccinated person getting infected from their kids, passing it on to another vaccinated adult who then get sick is again a *relatively* small risk. 

Really, the pandemic is over, except for those who aren't vaccinated. There're of course the unfortunate small group who can't get vaccinated due to medical reason, or vaccination doesn't help (immunocompromised), they'll just have to live with the risk. There're a whole lot of other diseases those folks could easily get and then be seriously sick from already. Covid is just one more.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 13, 2021)

ya, i went to a packed club last friday, and a sold out madison square garden yesterday for an outrageous stand up comedy line up. 

vax proof at the door. 

happy to participate in large scale events in vaccinated nyc.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 13, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> The NYT ran an article last weekend that put the current estimated risk of a breakthrough infection at between 1 in 5k and 1 in 10k depending on the overall vaccination rate in the area (i.e. on a daily basis, a vaccinated person had a risk between 1:5000 and 1:10000 of getting a breakthrough infection). If my math is right, that comes out to something like 3-7% over the course of a year. So small but certainly significant (if patrol said "there's a 7% that chute is going to slide when you ski it", I'd be taking another way down, not that it would be open, but if someone told me "there's a 3-7% chance of you getting caught in a backcountry slide this winter", that probably wouldn't keep me from getting out).


Hawaii is experiencing a little different - 1 in 10.









						COVID breakthrough cases in Hawaii spiked since July
					

Nearly one in 10 COVID positives from Friday, July 23, to Thursday, Aug. 26, have been among fully vaccinated people. Hospitalizations are also on the rise among breakthrough cases. It is an alarmi…




					www.khon2.com
				




Also I am not against the vaccination.  We are all as ignorant as the news and science.  There have been many reports of one case and things turn out a little different.  My point which hit close to home.  If vaccinated people can still contract covid and spread it as well, we probably should not have opened the hatches with no masks.  But that narrative would not bode well in getting people vaccinated.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 13, 2021)

abc said:


> Kids are at risk of a lot of other dangers. So the risk from Covid I think is *relatively* minor in comparison.
> 
> One vaccinated person getting infected from their kids, passing it on to another vaccinated adult who then get sick is again a *relatively* small risk.
> 
> Really, the pandemic is over, except for those who aren't vaccinated. There're of course the unfortunate small group who can't get vaccinated due to medical reason, or vaccination doesn't help (immunocompromised), they'll just have to live with the risk. There're a whole lot of other diseases those folks could easily get and then be seriously sick from already. Covid is just one more.



Covid is never going to go away









						WHO says Covid will mutate like the flu and is likely here to stay
					

Covid-19 could become endemic like the flu and circulate in the population at low levels.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## boston_e (Sep 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Hawaii is experiencing a little different - 1 in 10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You and kbroderick are looking at totally different numbers.

Hawaii is saying 1 in 10 positive cases have been among vaccinated that does not mean that 1 in 10 vaccinated people have contracted covid.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I pulled this line from a post from someone else months ago
> 
> 
> *Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.*
> ...


That's a strong mix of facts, half truths and complete BS


----------



## abc (Sep 13, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Hawaii is saying 1 in 10 positive cases have been among vaccinated that does not mean that 1 in 10 vaccinated people have contracted covid.


Put another way, vaccinated people are 1/10 as likely to get Covid as the unvaccinated.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 13, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Hawaii is experiencing a little different - 1 in 10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To put some objective numbers on the Hawaii mention and COVID cases.

With the reported 10% of new cases being breakthrough. The 7 day average new cases in Hawaii is at a little over 600 per day. That would put the breakthrough new cases at about 60 a day 

There are per Mayo Clinic Data, about 900,000 Hawaiians aged 18 and up, with about a 90% vaccination rate. So roughly 800,000 adult vaccinated Hawaiian's. 

The breakthrough rate is miniscule, and why one has to take a minute and look at the actual big picture and not a headline often written in a way to get clicks


----------



## abc (Sep 13, 2021)

Nothing wrong with the headline. There's a "spike" of 60/day over the previous (of single digit?)

But it's just one reader who drew the wrong conclusion that "Hawaii experiencing different"! The rest of us can read and understand it correctly. 

Clearly, the vaccine is not 100% effective. But it's the same as saying just because helmet (or seatbelt) isn't 100% effective, we shouldn't bother with one..


----------



## drjeff (Sep 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, i went to a packed club last friday, and a sold out madison square garden yesterday for an outrageous stand up comedy line up.
> 
> vax proof at the door.
> 
> happy to participate in large scale events in vaccinated nyc.


Gillette Stadium yesterday for the Patriots - Dolphins game. 

No proof of vaccination required. No masks required (probably 99% of the folks I saw were maskless, and that included employees at the stadium). Probably 90% of 80,000 seats were filled.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Gillette Stadium yesterday for the Patriots - Dolphins game.
> 
> No proof of vaccination required. No masks required (probably 99% of the folks I saw were maskless, and that included employees at the stadium). Probably 90% of 80,000 seats were filled.



im against that. and its not even that I'm particularly concerned about outdoor transmission, tho i'd rather not be shoulder to shoulder with unvaccinated people. mainly tho, I want unvaccinated people to be excluded from anything cool/fun/good. fuck the lot of them. selfish assholes who deserve nothing.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im against that. and its not even that I'm particularly concerned about outdoor transmission, tho i'd rather not be shoulder to shoulder with unvaccinated people. mainly tho, I want unvaccinated people to be excluded from anything cool/fun/good. fuck the lot of them. selfish assholes who deserve nothing.


That’s a bit selfish of you, isn’t it? To exclude people who had a different view from yours. 

I’d be a little bit more concerned about being shoulder to shoulder with mask less unvaccinated people who are shouting and hollering though.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im against that. and its not even that I'm particularly concerned about outdoor transmission, tho i'd rather not be shoulder to shoulder with unvaccinated people. mainly tho, I want unvaccinated people to be excluded from anything cool/fun/good. fuck the lot of them. selfish assholes who deserve nothing.


So someone like my uncle who got guillian Barre from the regular flu vaccine should just go fuck himself?
I thought we were looking for more understanding in our world?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> That’s a bit selfish of you, isn’t it? To exclude people who had a different view from yours.
> 
> I’d be a little bit more concerned about being shoulder to shoulder with mask less unvaccinated people who are shouting and hollering though.



no, its not. fuck the unvaccinated. they're the selfish ones. holding back our entire society from getting back to some semblance of normal. "patriots" who have no sense of community whatsoever. fucking assholes. they can all drop dead of covid for all I care.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> So someone like my uncle who got guillian Barre from the regular flu vaccine should just go fuck himself?
> I thought we were looking for more understanding in our world?



people with legitimate medical reasons to not get vaccinated are a sliver of the unvaccinated. for the most part, they're just anti-science right wing shitheads who should get fucked with a rusty metal dildo. or left wing burning man hippie assholes who also should get the rusty dildo


----------



## drjeff (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no, its not. fuck the unvaccinated. they're the selfish ones. holding back our entire society from getting back to some semblance of normal. "patriots" who have no sense of community whatsoever. fucking assholes. they can all drop dead of covid for all I care.



For full disclosure, I'm vaccinated, my entire family (even the extended family) is vaccinated. They work, I'm for folks getting them.

Serious question though, how do you know that someone who may have chosen not to be vaccinated, hasn't already had COVID and recovered from it (thus obtaining antibodies that way)?  Or have we just completely thrown all science out the door in favor of a piece of paper/screen on our phones, that allows one to viture signal? 

Now if you wanted folks to get quality antibody tests, and have that be a sign of those who are at risk of contracting COVID, then that I would be all for.

Antibodies to COVID certainly aren't only acquired through vaccines, that is just pure unadulterated science, yet there are many who just want to completely ignore that. That is an issue


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

if there was a verifiable way to demonstrate a recent record of adequate antibodies from recovery from infection, that would be fine with me. being that there is no current mechanism to easily screen for this, the vaccine passport is the best option we have. but your example, and andrew's, are the exceptions to the most common scenario, that of a huge fucking selfish asshole just being a huge fucking selfish asshole


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> That’s a bit selfish of you, isn’t it? To exclude people who had a different view from yours.
> 
> I’d be a little bit more concerned about being shoulder to shoulder with mask less unvaccinated people who are shouting and hollering though.


Pretty sure we know who the real selfish people are. Those that actually think vaccinating everyone in the US somehow results in us having a single line this year.
We will never be “back to normal” until the world is 85% vax’d or they find another way to eradicate Covid and the next strain, and the next strain an so on and so on.
#pipedreamer

PS
F’ing people with a rusty dildo will also put a serious strain on our healthcare system


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if there was a verifiable way to demonstrate a recent record of adequate antibodies from recovery from infection, that would be fine with me. being that there is no current mechanism to easily screen for this, the vaccine passport is the best option we have. but your example, and andrew's, are the exceptions to the most common scenario, that of a huge fucking selfish asshole just being a huge fucking selfish asshole


Yeah because the vax cards are verifiable LOL


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Yeah because the vax cards are verifiable LOL


The NYS excelsior pass is. But yea, the trump administration’s CDC making the vaccination card a fucking handwritten library card that doesn’t even fit in a wallet is some real dumb shit


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> people with legitimate medical reasons to not get vaccinated are a sliver of the unvaccinated. for the most part, they're just anti-science right wing shitheads who should get fucked with a rusty metal dildo. or left wing burning man hippie assholes who also should get the rusty dildo


What about the black And brown communities that don’t trust the vaccine?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Rust all around.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Rust all around.


The picture of joe Biden fucking a black guy with a rusty dildo will really help improve race relations in the country like shipping them off the Tuskegee did


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> What about the black And brown communities that don’t trust the vaccine?


What about them?

If they're being so stupid to not understand the science yet suspicious of the government, they deserve to be excluded from all things "normal"!



Andrew B. said:


> We will never be “back to normal” until the world is 85% vax’d or they find another way to eradicate Covid and the next strain, and the next strain an so on and so on.


I disagree. We should be "back to normal" and let the unvaccinated take the consequence of their choice! 

Any private business should be free to decide to require vaccination, or not. I will vote with my wallet as to whether to patronize venues that are open to the unvaccinated.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

^i agree with you, but your post doesn't square with your post on the last page from an hour ago telling me I am selfish for expressing that exact position you just expressed.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ^i agree with you, but your post doesn't square with your post on the last page from an hour ago telling me I am selfish for expressing that exact position you just expressed.


The only difference is, I think some business will choose to allow unvaccinated to attend. After all, some business owners themselves are vaccine skeptics. They should have their freedom to open their business to all, vaccinated or otherwise.

I may even attend those event that allows unvaccinated. It depends on the setting (indoor/outdoor, density of crowds etc.). I just don't like the idea/sentiment that excluding unvaccinated people from "fun stuff" as a form of punishment.

Unvaccinated people getting sick from Covid is now largely their own business. Hospitals are no longer being overwhelmed thanks to the vast number of people who chose to get vaccinated. It's not all that different than people who choose any unhealthy lifestyle. While I wish they don't hog up healthcare resources with the consequence of their poor choice of lifestyle, I accept it's the price of freedom. That freedom includes making bad choices, as long as  it's only marginally impacting the society.

I understand your anger against the antivaxxers in slowing our return to normalcy. But your anger should be directed at those who intentionally disperse bad information. Not at those who're confused by such misinformation. They deserve some sympathy.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> What about them?
> 
> If they're being so stupid to not understand the science yet suspicious of the government, they deserve to be excluded from all things "normal"!
> 
> ...


“It’s not just mistrust of the medical system, it’s mistrust of institutions,” Bennett said, “There’s a lot of reasons for [Black people] to mistrust institutions.” The murder of George Floyd stands as one poignant contemporary example, but “Tuskegee [still] looms large in the minds of Black Americans.” The Tuskegee experimentexploited 600 Black men working as sharecroppers who had syphilis by knowingly withholding treatment and simply seeing what happened to their bodies as a result of the disease for over 40 years.

I agree we could get “back to normal” but people need to stop treating Covid as only death sentence.stop focusing on cases 

if vaccinated tourist bring a new strain into the country from other countries it doesn’t stop does it?

I basically agree that now that 70% of Americans have had at least one shot I say open up the spigots and let Darwin sort out the rest. I am merely pointing out that “fucking people with a rusty dildo” is not the answer, or should I say the American answer. Leave that to the dictatorships around the world.


----------



## urungus (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Hospitals are no longer being overwhelmed thanks to the vast number of people who chose to get vaccinated.











						Alabama man dies after being turned away from 43 hospitals amid COVID surge, family says
					

Ray DeMonia died in a Mississippi hospital three days before his birthday — about 200 miles away from home.




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						Idaho allows COVID-slammed hospitals to ration care for 1st time ever
					

Idaho has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the nation, and officials say a "massive increase in patients with COVID" forced the "last resort" move.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

I'm quite certain there are many hospitals around the country that would disagree with your notion that they are no longer being overwhelmed.  Here in the Northeast, things are relatively under control; elsewhere where the vaccination rates are lower still very much have capacity issues. 

There has been ample opportunity for the US to achieve a higher rate of vaccination.  I'm in support of businesses trying to mitigate the potential danger to their patrons and staff by mandating vaccines and or negative tests.   If restrictions on leisure and employment opportunities is what will get us towards herd immunity faster, I'm all for it.  I feel no different about that than our local elementary school or daycare requiring MMR vaccines for the classmates of our kids.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> 'm quite certain there are many hospitals around the country that would disagree with your notion that they are no longer being overwhelmed. Here in the Northeast, things are relatively under control; elsewhere where the vaccination rates are lower still very much have capacity issues.


They're where they are because the choices they made base on their local culture, their government (which they elected), their population's political leaning. The federal government should let them be.

The northeast is in good shape largely because we got hit BAD initially. We took Covid a whole lot more seriously than those in the south. So many more of us got vaccinated. The reports I'm hearing from the south, there's usually a corresponding uptick in vaccination rate following a untick in case number!  While it may not help those already infected, it nonetheless "drives" the vaccination! God help them. (or as *Andrew B* puts it "let Darwin sort out the rest")


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> if vaccinated tourist bring a new strain into the country from other countries it doesn’t stop does it?



Has there been a variant yet that has demonstrated that the vaccine still doesn't provide better protection against than no vaccine at all?  The Delta variant has proven to be highly contagious, but last I checked, you were still less likely to get it if you were vaccinated than if you were not.  Perhaps that data will change overtime. 

We cannot control the vaccination rates of other countries around the globe.  We can reasonably do so at home.  We can also ban travel from certain destinations or require quarantine upon arrival.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> They're where they are because the choices they made base on their local culture, their government (which they elected), their population's political leaning. The federal government should let them be.



I don't think the feds should let them be if local government and culture is making demonstrably bad choices.   It's not just those sick with Covid that gets impacted.  It's all of the hospital resources and patients who require care for other ailments.   My folks are getting well up into their 70s and at a stage in life where their need for care is only going to go up.   Heaven for bid my mother takes a fall that requires ICU care and the local beds in their Florida city are taken up by the Veronica Wolski's of the world.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> We cannot control the vaccination rates of other countries around the globe.  We can reasonably do so at home.  We can also ban travel from certain destinations or require quarantine upon arrival.


Banning/quarantining travelers from other countries because they “may” kill Americans is not “back to normal”. Unless you’re a Trump supporter. 

And of course you are subjecting American travelers coming home to quarantine too.

So my premise stands, not “back to normal” anytime soon even if we reach 100% vaccination rate here in this country.

Of course the other wise crack would be that it doesn’t seem to be a policy we are ready to adopt at the southern border any time soon. what makes you think we should adopt it else where?


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 14, 2021)

The irony is, Those that hate the mask regulations the most are doing nothing to help us move forward.

Plan on more masks, more "proof of Vacc required", and more regulations overall.
Covid ain't going away. At least not in the USA


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Banning/quarantining travelers from other countries because they “may” kill Americans is not “back to normal”. Unless you’re a Trump supporter.
> 
> And of course you are subjecting American travelers coming home to quarantine too.
> 
> ...



I don't have a problem with how Canada is enforcing their international travel rules.  I mean it bums me out that I can't easily hop over the border to check out some Quebec ski areas as I don't have the time to quarantine, but that's really not something I'm going to get too bent out of shape on. 

I wouldn't have a problem with similar enforcement at all US borders until there is greater comfort with the strain that the virus presents to our healthcare resources.   

I didn't argue with you concerning what you feel is "back to normal."  

I argued that I support vaccine/testing mandates for certain leisure pursuits and employment opportunities.  Unfortunately, that seems to be necessary to get to a higher level of vaccination with less hospitalizations and deaths as the benefit.   Same argument as Kusty minus the rusty dildo.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have a problem with how Canada is enforcing their international travel rules.  I mean it bums me out that I can't easily hop over the border to check out some Quebec ski areas as I don't have the time to quarantine, but that's really not something I'm going to get too bent out of shape on.
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with similar enforcement at all US borders until there is greater comfort with the strain that the virus presents to our healthcare resources.
> 
> ...


What Canada has done to their economy with these policies could be catastrophic. Time will tell. But they banned everyone including Canadians so your saying closing the borders because “some” travelers “may” harm Americans would be ok in your mind?

I would also bet the large majority of Americans aren’t concerned with zipping over to Quebec to ski lol.

I have no problem with private businesses enforcing vaccine/testing mandates. But it’s on them not the Fed’s to enforce it. People will make their choices and many free market forces will determine those businesses fate.

to my knowledge we don’t require employers to require any other vaccines?


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have a problem with how Canada is enforcing their international travel rules. I mean it bums me out that I can't easily hop over the border to check out some Quebec ski areas as I don't have the time to quarantine,


You don't have to quarantine any more. Just have to get a negative Covid test.

(I just posted my recent experience of vacationing in Canada. https://forums.alpinezone.com/threa...ess-of-touring-the-canadian-maritimes.143400/)


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> What Canada has done to their economy with these policies could be catastrophic. Time will tell. But they banned everyone including Canadians so your saying closing the borders because “some” travelers “may” harm Americans would be ok in your mind?
> 
> I would also bet the large majority of Americans aren’t concerned with zipping over to Quebec to ski lol.
> 
> ...



I didn't have a problem with our much stricter travel bans in 2020 and I don't have a problem with the much less restrictive travel ban Canada still has.  I assume in the next 3-12 months the situation will improve. 

We don't require employers to no.  But we do require them in schools, so effectively we do for the vast majority of American workers anyway.  About 92% of the US has the MMR vaccine, which isn't 100% effective either.  Don't hear many people crying tyranny on that like they now are with Covid.   

I really don't see it as a big deal.  I've had to get a flu shot every year for the past ten working in healthcare.  I now have to for Covid too.  The rewards outweigh the risks.

You feel differently.   Ok.  We won't see eye to eye


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> people with legitimate medical reasons to not get vaccinated are a sliver of the unvaccinated. for the most part, they're just anti-science right wing shitheads who should get fucked with a rusty metal dildo. or left wing burning man hippie assholes who also should get the rusty dildo


I doubt the large number of minority people that have not gotten the shot are right wingers, but by all means keep reciting those talking points


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

employers dont need to require vaccinations for other shit because everyone got vaccinated for other shit when they were children. this is new shit. get with the program.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I doubt the large number of minority people that have not gotten the shot are right wingers, but by all means keep reciting those talking points



keep deflecting and denying that the right-wing is the primary source of the problem at hand.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> employers dont need to require vaccinations for other shit because everyone got vaccinated for other shit when they were children. this is new shit. get with the program.


Hmmm
Ever heard of the term “home schooled”?
Many people home school because they don’t want to subject their children to vaccines. I know at least 2 families that fall into that category.
Are employers supposed to make them get the chicken pox vaccine? Do they check where they went to school?


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm quite certain there are many hospitals around the country that would disagree with your notion that they are no longer being overwhelmed.  Here in the Northeast, things are relatively under control; elsewhere where the vaccination rates are lower still very much have capacity issues.
> 
> There has been ample opportunity for the US to achieve a higher rate of vaccination.  I'm in support of businesses trying to mitigate the potential danger to their patrons and staff by mandating vaccines and or negative tests.   If restrictions on leisure and employment opportunities is what will get us towards herd immunity faster, I'm all for it.  I feel no different about that than our local elementary school or daycare requiring MMR vaccines for the classmates of our kids.


Actually hospitals And skilled care facilities in the Northeast (NY) are having issues now thanks to the new vaccine mandates- probably only a sign of things to come in other areas


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Hmmm
> Ever heard of the term “home schooled”?
> Many people home school because they don’t want to subject their children to vaccines. I know at least 2 families that fall into that category.
> Are employers supposed to make them get the chicken pox vaccine? Do they check where they went to school?



why do you keep citing the extreme minority outlier situations? cool, your uncle got guillian barre from a flu shot. cool, 3% of us children are homeschooled. these situations do not apply to the vast majority of people.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Actually hospitals And skilled care facilities in the Northeast (NY) are having issues now thanks to the new vaccine mandates- probably only a sign of things to come in other areas


The vast majority of hospitals in New England already required proof of vaccination.  I know this because I am a registered vendor with literally all of them.  I'd ballpark it at 10% of hospitals that don't require MMR, proof of negative TB and seasonal flu. 

I would bet you the ratio of workers who have left the industry for early retirement or a perceived safer workplace because of Covid out number those leaving because of the vaccine mandate on the order of 20 to 1.   One headline about the hospital in upstate NY suspending Labor and Delivery services because workers are upset about the vaccine does not paint the true picture.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> keep deflecting and denying that the right-wing is the primary source of the problem at hand.
> 
> View attachment 51939


They may be the majority of the “problem” but you have made your feelings known.
Get vaccinated or be shot no matter your situation. Sounds like the old “we can fix the gays by beating them straight”

talk about selfish, shortsighted bigotry jeez.
Intolerant much?

You really should change your avitar. I doubt Jerry would ever say conform or be rusty dildo’d.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> keep deflecting and denying that the right-wing is the primary source of the problem at hand.
> 
> View attachment 51939











						Vaccination Rates in N.Y.C., and One Major Disparity
					

Only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44  are fully vaccinated — a number that worries health experts as the Delta variant spreads.




					www.nytimes.com
				




some highlights from the article:

As the Delta variant rapidly spreads, disparities in vaccination rates remain a concern. Only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44 are fully vaccinated — a significantly lower rate than for residents from other demographics in that age bracket.


With the asinine policies of NYC, blacks are going to be denied access to public areas at rates not seen since the civil rights era, nice work there.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> They may be the majority of the “problem” but you have made your feelings known.
> Get vaccinated or be shot no matter your situation. Sounds like the old “we can fix the gays by beating them straight”
> 
> talk about selfish, shortsighted bigotry jeez.
> ...



lol. you can get fucked, guy.

bobby says get with the program.




its also really rich when right-wing numb-nuts try to compare this to discrimination against gays, or women, or racial groups, or any other immutable and actually protected classification. being a selfish anti-science douchebag is not a protected class.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> why do you keep citing the extreme minority outlier situations? cool, your uncle got guillian barre from a flu shot. cool, 3% of us children are homeschooled. these situations do not apply to the vast majority of people.


What about the black community that rightfully doesn’t trust the government? That’s pretty big issue. That’s also why your burning man hippies won’t get vaccinated.
Again 100% American vaccination won’t bring back “normal life”. Get used to it.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. you can get fucked, guy.
> 
> bobby says get with the program.
> 
> ...


Wrong
Bobby says if you want to come to the show be vaccinated (which was a joke when I went).
He doesn’t say get vaccinated or rusty dildo’d.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

lol. you for real? my original post this morning was about how its good to exclude the unvaccinated from events. that's exactly what dead and co are doing. the rusty dildo is hyperbole. the dead are doing exactly what I want them to be doing.

some more hyperbole - the unvaccinated should be rounded up and brought to Alabama, which we will convert into a camp, where they can be concentrated.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> With the asinine policies of NYC, blacks are going to be denied access to public areas at rates not seen since the civil rights era, nice work there.


So?

They're not denied access because they're black. They're denied access because they don't play by the rule!

Or are you suggesting giving blacks special privileges of vaccine waiver because of their skin color?


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. you for real? my original post this morning was about how its good to exclude the unvaccinated from events. that's exactly what dead and co are doing. the rusty dildo is hyperbole. the dead are doing exactly what I want them to be doing.
> 
> some more hyperbole - the unvaccinated should be rounded up and brought to Alabama, which we will convert into a camp, where they can be concentrated.


I went to two D&C shows this summer
No one and I mean NO ONE looked at my card long enough to even read my name. The second night my wife never even had hers checked. It was a joke. It sounded nice and virtuous I will agree but was never going to be properly vetted.

you been saying all along that unvaccinated people should be forced to get vaccinated or pay the price physically. I won’t use your vulgar analogy again.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the unvaccinated should be rounded up and brought to Alabama, which we will convert into a camp, where they can be concentrated.


The scary thing is, you're not alone in that messed up way of thinking


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> So?
> 
> They're not denied access because they're black. They're denied access because they don't play by the rule!
> 
> Or are you suggesting giving blacks special privileges of vaccine waiver because of their skin color?


I am not saying that
I am saying that we are being asked now more than ever to respect people differences. But in this case it’s “fuck their concerns” based on 400 years of abuse at the hands of the white man.
Now it’s  round them up and vaccinate them or “choot ‘em”


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I went to two D&C shows this summer
> No one and I mean NO ONE looked at my card long enough to even read my name. The second night my wife never even had hers checked. It was a joke. It sounded nice and virtuous I will agree but was never going to be properly vetted.
> 
> you been saying all along that unvaccinated people should be forced to get vaccinated or pay the price physically. I won’t use your vulgar analogy again.



the logistics of checking 60,000 cards/apps is difficult. by requiring attendees to be vax or test, you at least set the expectation and then the overwhelming majority of the audience is compliant, not wanting to risk getting turned away and eating the cost of their ticket. enforcement is difficult, but the presence of the rule itself causes substantial compliance. 

do I literally mean people should receive physical harm for not getting vaccinated? of course not (aside from them getting covid and dying of covid, which I welcome with open arms). but yea, no forced sodomy with rusted appliances at all. what i do want, and what has been my clear point all day and prior, is that these people should be excluded from society. if they don't want to take a simple pro community step, they don't deserve to enjoy the benefits of community.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I am not saying that
> I am saying that we are being asked now more than ever to respect people differences. But in this case it’s “fuck their concerns” based on 400 years of abuse at the hands of the white man.
> Now it’s  round them up and vaccinate them or “choot ‘em”



you are talking about the paradox of the tolerant, and its a bullshit argument. a tolerant society does not need to tolerate the intolerant. the unvaccinated are the intolerant.





__





						Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I went to two D&C shows this summer
> No one and I mean NO ONE looked at my card long enough to even read my name. The second night my wife never even had hers checked. It was a joke. It sounded nice and virtuous I will agree but was never going to be properly vetted.



Given the timing of the announcement, the means of proof readily available and the size of the crowd, obviously the enforcement was going to be lax.  

I see 3 to 5 shows a month at my local music club.  Capacity is 150 indoors or 250 outdoors.  Vax or negative test required and they check it well.  

Now sure, you could have a fake credential, but eventually there will be apps that are conclusive.  Many larger shows you show your phone and QR code as your ticket to enter.  No reason Live Nation or Ticketmaster couldn't incorporate Vax status into that QR code.  

And if you want to be all free market, go to a Ted Nugent or Kid Rock concert.  I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the logistics of checking 60,000 cards/apps is difficult. by requiring attendees to be vax or test, you at least set the expectation and then the overwhelming majority of the audience is compliant, not wanting to risk getting turned away and eating the cost of their ticket. enforcement is difficult, but the presence of the rule itself causes substantial compliance.
> 
> do I literally mean people should receive physical harm for not getting vaccinated? of course not (aside from them getting covid and dying of covid, which I welcome with open arms). but yea, no forced sodomy with rusted appliances at all. what i do want, and what has been my clear point all day and prior, is that these people should be excluded from society. if they don't want to take a simple pro community step, they don't deserve to enjoy the benefits of community.


So you agree that vax card checks at major events are a joke and never going to be properly enforced. 
I heard you could buy fake vax cards on shakedown st. I think you idea about banning them from the community is also un-enforceable.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you are talking about the paradox of the tolerant, and its a bullshit argument. a tolerant society does not need to tolerate the intolerant. the unvaccinated are the intolerant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would actually say you are the intolerant


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

no i dont agree. what i think is what I typed on the last post of the prior page. 

you really like to use ridiculous "but but but" arguments that don't apply to the majority of people.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Given the timing of the announcement, the means of proof readily available and the size of the crowd, obviously the enforcement was going to be lax.
> 
> I see 3 to 5 shows a month at my local music club.  Capacity is 150 indoors or 250 outdoors.  Vax or negative test required and they check it well.
> 
> ...


Motor city mad man yeah !..!

At your show experience they matched your card to you ID and the person doing it was qualified to recognize a fake?


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no i dont agree. what i think is what I typed on the last post of the prior page.
> 
> you really like to use ridiculous "but but but" arguments that don't apply to the majority of people.


And you use hyperbole to threaten people


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

thats not the point. the enforcement is not the point. like are you really this dense? the presence of the rule creates substantial compliance absent active enforcement.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> What Canada has done to their economy with these policies could be catastrophic. Time will tell. But they banned everyone including Canadians so your saying closing the borders because “some” travelers “may” harm Americans would be ok in your mind?
> 
> I would also bet the large majority of Americans aren’t concerned with zipping over to Quebec to ski lol.
> 
> ...


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thats not the point. the enforcement is not the point. like are you really this dense? the presence of the rule creates substantial compliance absent active enforcement.


Sounds nice doesn’t it
I bet you were a good little rule follower your whole life.
I know I can’t claim that virtuosity 
I had a fake ID to buy beer as a kid. Creatively worked my way into many situations. That’s a given. Not recognizing that is foolish.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

WWJ(erry)D
I still don’t think he would be as intolerant to non-conformists as you are.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

there will always be a handful of pieces of shit like you in any crowd, no matter the rule, you're correct about that bit.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> What Canada has done to their economy with these policies could be catastrophic. Time will tell. But they banned everyone including Canadians so your saying closing the borders because “some” travelers “may” harm Americans would be ok in your mind?
> 
> I would also bet the large majority of Americans aren’t concerned with zipping over to Quebec to ski lol.
> 
> ...


Unless you're in HealthCare.

  Required Vacc's for Healthcare workers
 Hepatitis B
Influenza
Varicella (Chicken Pox)
MMR - Measles, Mumps, Rubella
TDap  (Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis)
Meningococcal
Now add Covid


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Motor city mad man yeah !..!
> 
> At your show experience they matched your card to you ID and the person doing it was qualified to recognize a fake?



Yes they match your ID to a CDC card.  About as good as an option available with current tech.  Certainly could be better options.  Like I said, tying vax status to the ticket QR code.

You really seemed to be bothered by all of this.  I'm surprised you just didn't skip the D&C show all together.  Vote with your wallet while the opportunity is currently there to do so.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> there will always be a handful of pieces of shit like you in any crowd, no matter the rule, you're correct about that bit.


Nice name calling
You seem to be very uptight and angry 
Do you yell at clouds too?


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes they match your ID to a CDC card.  About as good as an option available with current tech.  Certainly could be better options.  Like I said, tying vax status to the ticket QR code.
> 
> You really seemed to be bothered by all of this.  I'm surprised you just didn't skip the D&C show all together.  Vote with your wallet while the opportunity is currently there to do so.


I am not bothered at all. You have me confused with the guy espousing physical violence. I am a much more “live and let live guy”. Just a slow day at work. 

I would never let something as benign as a musicians reasonable request keep me from enjoying their music.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I am saying that we are being asked now more than ever to respect people differences. But in this case it’s “fuck their concerns” based on 400 years of abuse at the hands of the white man.


People's "difference" is in their skin color, which they're born with. Not their backward thinking, which they choose to adopt! To "respect" the latter is ludicrous.

"400 years of abuse at the hand of the white man"? So blacks are forever second class because their ancestors were abused so they can't think straight?

And if you want to talk about being lied to by "the government", what about the soldiers who were being subjected to agent orange, fallout of atomic bomb testing, and amphetamine? Should we make vet's vaccine waiver too because their distrust of government?


----------



## boston_e (Sep 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> For full disclosure, I'm vaccinated, my entire family (even the extended family) is vaccinated. They work, I'm for folks getting them.
> 
> Serious question though, *how do you know that someone who may have chosen not to be vaccinated, hasn't already had COVID and recovered from it *(thus obtaining antibodies that way)?  Or have we just completely thrown all science out the door in favor of a piece of paper/screen on our phones, that allows one to viture signal?
> 
> ...



My answer to that question is: Get the vaccine anyway.  Zero negative in getting it, and some recent research seems to be pointing to that the best immunity of all is in people who have both recovered from COVID and received an MRNA vaccine.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I am not bothered at all. You have me confused with the guy espousing physical violence. I am a much more “live and let live guy”. Just a slow day at work.
> 
> I would never let something as benign as a musicians reasonable request keep me from enjoying their music.



A little strange that you aren't bothered by it, but yet you continue to challenge the notion of it including what my personal experience was like.  
I think it's pretty well established that the rusty dildo comment was in fact hyperbole and Kusty isn't actually calling for physical violence.  People who are pro vax are simply tired of the situation and those who still deny the evidence that the more people who get the vaccine, the better off we all are.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

abc said:


> People's "difference" is in their skin color, which they're born with. Not their backward thinking, which they choose to adopt! To "respect" the latter is ludicrous.
> 
> "400 years of abuse at the hand of the white man"? So blacks are forever second class because their ancestors were abused?
> 
> And if you want to talk about being lied to by "the government", what about the soldiers who were being subjected to agent orange, fallout of atomic bomb testing, and amphetamine? Should we make vet's vaccine waiver too because their distrust of government?


People’s differences have nothing to do with the color of their skin In my mind. It speaks to your life experiences and the things you have been raised to believe.

Not sure what your definition of 2nd class citizen is but that’s not mine. I thought it was clear, I respect their concerns because we have seen them abused for 400 years. “Here take this blanket infected with chicken pox it will keep you warm” “let’s go to Tuskegee it’s a nice place and they will take care of you”. Do you think that those experiences should not be respected? 
“of course it’s for your and the countries best interest we wouldn’t lie to you” I would run like hell of I heard that.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

you're so edgy.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Sounds nice doesn’t it
> I bet you were a good little rule follower your whole life.
> I know I can’t claim that virtuosity
> I had a fake ID to buy beer as a kid. Creatively worked my way into many situations. That’s a given. Not recognizing that is foolish.


So because some underage people will have a fake ID, should there be no drinking age?
Since some people will speed, get a radar detector and not get caught should there be no speed limit?


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> People’s differences have nothing to do with the color of their skin In my mind. It speaks to your life experiences and the things you have been raised to believe.
> 
> Not sure what your definition of 2nd class citizen is but that’s not mine. I thought it was clear, I respect their concerns because we have seen them abused for 400 years. “Here take this blanket infected with chicken pox it will keep you warm” “let’s go to Tuskegee it’s a nice place and they will take care of you”. Do you think that those experiences should not be respected?
> “of course it’s for your and the countries best interest we wouldn’t lie to you” I would run like hell of I heard that.



A certain amount of healthy skepticism is to be expected.   But when they don't show the same skepticism of a Stella Immanuel, Mike Lindell or some other YouTube crackpot, that's an even bigger problem.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> A little strange that you aren't bothered by it, but yet you continue to challenge the notion of it including what my personal experience was like.
> I think it's pretty well established that the rusty dildo comment was in fact hyperbole and Kusty isn't actually calling for physical violence.  People who are pro vax are simply tired of the situation and those who still deny the evidence that the more people who get the vaccine, the better off we all are.


I never questioned your experience other than to examine that it was more complete than mine. I am glad they did more complete review of the documents than my experience. It might have made me feel better if they had done a better job in my experience. I felt no difference at the shows I went to shows that they didn’t check cards.

No doubt the more vax’d the better but I am against telling people what the must do with their bodies at point of a knife.

now if KK had a more reasonable tone to his post and said simply “more vax = better life” instead of his attitude of violence he would not have gotten much attention from me. I bet he wonders why more people don’t see it his way.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> A certain amount of healthy skepticism is to be expected.   But when they don't show the same skepticism of a Stella Immanuel, Mike Lindell or some other YouTube crackpot, that's an even bigger problem.


There are angry crack pots on both sides of the issue as far as I can tell especially after today’s discussion.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2021)

how's this for reasonable - get fucked you fuckin tool.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

People up and driving cars since the 1920s and drunk driving laws weren’t really enacted or at least enforced until the 1970s. Covid has been around for a year and a half it will take some time for people to understand the importance of this issue as well


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 14, 2021)

See what I mean
There is much anger in this one


----------



## mbedle (Sep 14, 2021)

I gotta say that I agree with Kusty and DH. Barring the people that can't get the vaccine, I have very little compassion for people that are suffering with Covid 19 and chose not to get vaccinated. Part of that is because their actions are currently and most likely this winter, will affect my life, my fellow vaccinated American's lives, and the people that can't get vaccinated. What I find incredibly odd is the absolute disconnect between what a true patriot is and certain people today that call themselves patriots. It's odd to me that caring about only oneself and not your fellow Americans is now considered patriotism. It's odd to me that an absolute distrust of our government is now considered patriotism. It's odd to me and downright sad to see 1,000s of people attack our country and have them scream from the top of their lungs that they are in fact true patriots. Doing what is right for the good of all people in this country is patriotism. Caring about your fellow American as much as you care about your self, is true patriotism. Doing what is necessary to end or curtail this pandemic is patriotism.  The term patriotism appears to have been highjacked and redefined to mean I care about my country and all Americans "like me", as long as I am not told what to do by the government nor my perceived freedoms curtailed. The government has been mandating vaccines since the days of George Washington. If you are going to tell me that George Washington is not a true patriot, you really need to re-evaluate your made-up definition of a patriot. I am blessed that my parents were true patriots and lined us up as kids to get vaccinated for polio and small poxs, which ultimately resulted in the eradication of those diseases. True patriots understand that our government is necessary, the foundation of our country and comprised of millions of Americans that care about everyone in this country. The government is not some mysterious group of people that's only purpose is to tell Americans what to do and infringe on American's rights to freedom.


----------



## Edd (Sep 14, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> WWJ(erry)D
> I still don’t think he would be as intolerant to non-conformists as you are.


You’ve used “conform” in a couple of posts today which feels disingenuous to me. Replace it with “pitch in for the common good” and I can get behind it.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 14, 2021)

Edd said:


> You’ve used “conform” in a couple of posts today which feels disingenuous to me. Replace it with “pitch in for the common good” and I can get behind it.


I think then that especially amongst the vaccinated, that we all can pitch in for the common good and realize that unless you're say over 80 with MULTIPLE co-morbidities, that you can certainly live your life pretty normally right now, even if you do come across someone who isn't vaccinated. Or else one is asking those who may not have the saem viewpoint as themselves, to confrom to their view of things


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I gotta say that I agree with Kusty and DH. Barring the people that can't get the vaccine, I have very little compassion for people that are suffering with Covid 19 and chose not to get vaccinated. Part of that is because their actions are currently and most likely this winter, will affect my life, my fellow vaccinated American's lives, and the people that can't get vaccinated. What I find incredibly odd is the absolute disconnect between what a true patriot is and certain people today that call themselves patriots. It's odd to me that caring about only oneself and not your fellow Americans is now considered patriotism. It's odd to me that an absolute distrust of our government is now considered patriotism. It's odd to me and downright sad to see 1,000s of people attack our country and have them scream from the top of their lungs that they are in fact true patriots. Doing what is right for the good of all people in this country is patriotism. Caring about your fellow American as much as you care about your self, is true patriotism. Doing what is necessary to end or curtail this pandemic is patriotism.  The term patriotism appears to have been highjacked and redefined to mean I care about my country and all Americans "like me", as long as I am not told what to do by the government nor my perceived freedoms curtailed. The government has been mandating vaccines since the days of George Washington. If you are going to tell me that George Washington is not a true patriot, you really need to re-evaluate your made-up definition of a patriot. I am blessed that my parents were true patriots and lined us up as kids to get vaccinated for polio and small poxs, which ultimately resulted in the eradication of those diseases. True patriots understand that our government is necessary, the foundation of our country and comprised of millions of Americans that care about everyone in this country. The government is not some mysterious group of people that's only purpose is to tell Americans what to do and infringe on American's rights to freedom.


Well people who totally distrusted the British government were called patriots…


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Sep 14, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> how's this for reasonable - get fucked you fuckin tool.


KuntyTheKlown says what?


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

In my opinion, one of the problem some of you are so upset about isn’t the antivaxxers. It’s the government trying so hard to protect the antivaxxers from their own stupidity! Well heck, they don’t want that “protection”! Never did, never will! They see it as their “right” to be stupid. And they’re right. We should let them be. And let Darwin work its magic!

I’d say open the f*k up, everything! No capacity restrictions. I can see the following few things will happen

1) a small percentage of vaccinated people will get a mild case of Covid. I knew of 2 people who did. Like getting a bad cold. They both completely recovered in 2-3 days. No biggie

2) a much larger number of unvaccinated people will get Covid. Some badly enough to need to be in ICU. But once they recovered, they’re then immune. So the more of them got infected, the faster we reach herd immunity. 

3) A tiny fraction of people will die from Covid, most of them unvaccinated. We can handle that. Just like we can handle road death from auto accidents.

Specifically of the black and brown people who are very distrustful of the government? They’ll have to take their chances between a government they distrust and a disease they know nothing about. Right now, it’s understandable they choose the unknown disease over the known government which had mistreated them in the past. But I’ll bet they’ll feel very differently if their family member or close friends got sick from Covid!

We’re not in the same situation like last March any more. We know how to handle Covid. Yes, unpleasant and expensive. But we’re much better prepared than last spring. Hospital will not be overwhelmed. The impact to society from the stupidity of the antivaxxers are far less this time around. 

I personally felt the antivaxxers might have been the problem 3 months ago. But they‘re no longer ”the problem” any more. Now, the problem is we’re bending over backwards to catering to their safety at our expense. It’s time to stop doing that! Let them take their chances with Covid,


----------



## mbedle (Sep 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Well people who totally distrusted the British government were called patriots…


Did not distrust, but objected to being taxed without representation.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> In my opinion, one of the problem some of you are so upset about isn’t the antivaxxers. It’s the government trying so hard to protect the antivaxxers from their own stupidity! Well heck, they don’t want that “protection”! Never did, never will! They see it as their “right” to be stupid. And they’re right. We should let them be. And let Darwin work its magic!
> 
> I’d say open the f*k up, everything! No capacity restrictions. I can see the following few things will happen
> 
> ...


Agree 100%

What many bemoaning the anti-vaxxers don't seem to understand, is that in a public health setting, there is often a difference between society having 100% access to something (the vaccine short of a very small number of specific medically reasoned people) and the often Utopianesque fantasy of 100% utilization of that public health option.

The simple fact is that regardless of how much time, efforts, and $$ is spent trying to get to 100% utilization, short of a military style dictatorship, it's not going to happen.

For those practically obsessing about this, you've done your part, the simple fact is that your very, very, very, very likely to be safe if you contract a breakthrough case or come in contact with a vaccinated person, and one could certainly make the point that you may actually be doing more mental harm to yourself worrying about those who don't want to get vaccinated.

You've done your part, now start living your life again, and as you start to go about things in a more normal fashion,  every day you'll see how much better you feel and how the folks that don't want to get vaccinated actually don't affect your life (in spite of how some of our elected officials and media pundits want you to believe they do) 

I just wonder if some who are so staunchly in the "everyone must get vaxxed" rule following mentality are just as staunchly behind say not ducking a rope on a powder day that patrol still has up for rule following - afterall both situations are about our safety...


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I just wonder if some who are so staunchly in the "everyone must get vaxxed" rule following mentality are just as staunchly behind say not ducking a rope on a powder day that patrol still has up for rule following - afterall both situations are about our safety...


KK probably calls patrol when he sees such “piece of shit” behavior.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 15, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> KK probably calls patrol when he sees such “piece of shit” behavior.


Whilst ducking the rope himself.   Like many of the other "rules for thee but not for me" covid hysterics


----------



## trackbiker (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> 2) a much larger number of unvaccinated people will get Covid. Some badly enough to need to be in ICU. But once they recovered, they’re then immune. So the more of them got infected, the faster we reach herd immunity.


I agree with what you said. But here's the problem; the hospitals have to treat these idiots and they are over run with patients in the ICU's and other people with non Covid conditions are not getting the attention and treatment that they deserve. I would 100% agree if the hospitals prioritized the vaccinated over the nonvaccers and put them in hallways when a vaccinated person needed an ICU bed for a non Covid or Covid condition.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

My biggest issue with the anti-vax crowd are that they value their "personal freedom ideology" over a choice that has such obvious public health benefits.  My second biggest issue is many of them try and convince others to make that same choice and it ends up killing people.  Been a number of very vocal conservative radio and TV personalities, church leaders etc., pushing misinformation on the vaccine.  How many of their listeners have gotten very sick or died?  What they are doing is practically manslaughter. 

Heaven forbid the next time one of these viruses comes around it isn't one that kills 600k+ children instead of "mainly just old people or those who are sick and not destined for a long life anyway."

If that happens, will you freedom fighters still feel the same way?


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What they are doing is practically manslaughter.


That's a bit of a slippery slope as many of the people trying to shove the vaccine down people's throats spent weeks and months trashing the vaccine over petty politics before it became politically beneficial to them to change their tune


----------



## boston_e (Sep 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> What many bemoaning the anti-vaxxers don't seem to understand, is that in a public health setting, there is often a difference between society having 100% access to something (the vaccine short of a very small number of specific medically reasoned people) and the often Utopianesque fantasy of 100% utilization of that public health opt
> The simple fact is that regardless of how much time, efforts, and $$ is spent trying to get to 100% utilization, short of a military style dictatorship, it's not going to happen.
> ...


I get the point you and ABC are making, and while I'm not particularly worried about getting sick myself, the unvaccinated do affect others.  Examples would be in many work or school settings if there is an exposure, all are subjected to the same quarantine restrictions.  So if one of my vaccinated sons is exposed to some unvaccinated kid in his classroom, he will potentially be subjected to the same restrictions as the rest of the class and then has to miss school for some number of days. (Evidently he would be able to test out of quarantine sooner than an unvaccinated)  All because some idiot parents won't do the right thing.

The unvaccinated are still overcrowding hospitals in many areas - we have already seen anecdotal examples of people with non covid ailments not being able to access care because of overcrowding.

There is also currently a significant portion of the population unable to get vaccinated at this time.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I doubt the large number of minority people that have not gotten the shot are right wingers, but by all means keep reciting those talking points


Spot on!  Everyone wants to make it political!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2021)

unfortunately large groups of people on either side of the aisle can't discuss anything without it being political.  I've always considered myself in the middle and its silly and super annoying that people want you constantly to choose or defend a side...


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> he unvaccinated do affect others. Examples would be in many work or school settings if there is an exposure, all are subjected to the same quarantine restrictions. So if one of my vaccinated sons is exposed to some unvaccinated kid in his classroom, he will potentially be subjected to the same restrictions as the rest of the class and then has to miss school for some number of days. (Evidently he would be able to test out of quarantine sooner than an unvaccinated) All because some idiot parents won't do the right thing.


The example you're citing is a good one. But it could theoretically be alleviated by daily testing of the unvaccinated. 

Yes, I know it's not being done currently. Some places are doing weekly testing, which is not quite frequent enough. Then there's the cost of the testing, which in my personal view should be bore by those who choose to not get vaccinated ("choose to", not unable). 

There're solutions to get back to normal for the vaccinated. But sadly there's a lack of political will to do it. To my, too much effort are being wasted to "protect" those who don't want the protection. 

I fear, no amount of carrot is going to entice the vaccine decliners to change their mind. And the "stick" of vaccine mandate is pushing the boundary of civil liberty. (yes, I know the court had upheld all the vaccine mandates, but it's a Pandora's box, the less we open it, the fewer "curses" we'll have to deal with)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I get the point you and ABC are making, and while I'm not particularly worried about getting sick myself, the unvaccinated do affect others.  Examples would be in many work or school settings if there is an exposure, all are subjected to the same quarantine restrictions.  *So if one of my vaccinated sons is exposed to some unvaccinated kid in his classroom, he will potentially be subjected to the same restrictions as the rest of the class *and then has to miss school for some number of days. (Evidently he would be able to test out of quarantine sooner than an unvaccinated)  All because some idiot parents won't do the right thing.
> 
> The unvaccinated are still overcrowding hospitals in many areas - we have already seen anecdotal examples of people with non covid ailments not being able to access care because of overcrowding.
> 
> There is also currently a significant portion of the population unable to get vaccinated at this time.


Also 

*So if one of your vaccinated sons is exposed to some vaccinated kid in his classroom that gets covid,  The results are the same.*

From CDC
As of September 7, 2021, more than 176 million people in the United States had been fully vaccinated against COVID-19.  During the same time, CDC received reports from 49 U.S. states and territories of 14,115 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died. The total number of deaths is unclear but they say that 85% are 65 or older.

This does not include those that are asymptomatic and flu like symptoms that are not going to the hospital.  That number we will never know.  Where my son is stationed in the Army, they have a whole set of barracks dedicated to covid cases - projected to be non fatal.  He says that the rooms are filling up.  The military requires vaccines.  They way they are managing it is weird he got covid about a week ago and now he has a roommate that just got it this week.  You would think that they would group to tighter timeframes.  They were doing 1 person per room but that max has been reached.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> The example you're citing is a good one. But it could theoretically be alleviated by daily testing of the unvaccinated.



Testing has to be for everyone the vaccinated can get covid too!  Why does everyone feel like vaccinated can walk around freely and everything is OK.  Better off more than likely,  But if a vaccinated person gets Covid they are just as much of a spreader as the unvaccinated.  In fact in some case are even silent spreaders due to lack of symptoms.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> there will always be a handful of pieces of shit like you in any crowd, no matter the rule, you're correct about that bit.



is that necessary?  Are you that worked up over this?  Seriously - you points of view are absurd.

BTW have you ever ducked a rope for freshies?


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes they match your ID to a CDC card.  About as good as an option available with current tech.  Certainly could be better options.  Like I said, tying vax status to the ticket QR code.
> 
> You really seemed to be bothered by all of this.  I'm surprised you just didn't skip the D&C show all together.  Vote with your wallet while the opportunity is currently there to do so.



Vaccinations have been recorded on paper and there are many who have copied these and digitally modified and reprinted on the same card stock,  It is pretty easy especially with the younger tech savvy crowd.  I am pretty sure that someone checking vax cards would not be able to tell the difference.  Heck when we are in NYC recently they had signs on the restaurant doors stating the show of vax proof was required.  we started to take the cards out and they waved us in without looking.


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Testing has to be for everyone *the vaccinated can get covid* too!  Why does everyone feel like vaccinated can walk around freely and everything is OK.  Better off more than likely,  But if a vaccinated person gets Covid they are just as much of a spreader as the unvaccinated.  In fact in some case are even silent spreaders due to lack of symptoms.


"Can" and likely isn't the same thing!

Research from other countries indicated the vaccinated are far less likely to catch Covid, symptomatic or otherwise. They're also less likely to spread it due to the simple fact their antibody can suppress the virus faster than the unvaccinated.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> is that necessary?  Are you that worked up over this?


this is exactly what I'm talking about people have to be so extreme about everything and if you don't align completely with them you are the asshole...  

Our country is fucked because this is the only way people know how to talk to each other now...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I think then that especially amongst the vaccinated, that we all can pitch in for the common good and realize that unless you're say over 80 with MULTIPLE co-morbidities, that you can certainly live your life pretty normally right now, even if you do come across someone who isn't vaccinated.



I am surprised at this statement you made!  I think living normally - we are far from that.  Some places are starting to clamp down again.  Also Vaccinated as you know does not equal covid resistance.  If you live your life normally which I do the best I can then you are willing to risk that your symptoms will be less (hopefully) or you do not contract covid at all.  There are a lot of breakthrough cases and more than we will ever know.  Just like there were many covid cases prior to vaccinations that never were tested and never counted that number we will never know either.


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I am surprised at this statement you made!  I think living normally - we are far from that.  Some places are starting to clamp down again.  Also Vaccinated as you know does not equal covid resistance.  If you live your life normally which I do the best I can then you are willing to risk that your symptoms will be less (hopefully) or you do not contract covid at all.  There are a lot of breakthrough cases and more than we will ever know.  Just like there were many covid cases prior to vaccinations that never were tested and never counted that number we will never know either.


Too much of the pandemic talk had been derailed by all the edge cases! Medical science is rarely binary. You maybe unlikely to catch Covid, or likely to catch it and even likely to die. But nothing is absolute.

The whole business of breakthrough infection blah blah blah is missing the real point, which is every bit of intervention help to reduce the probability of spread, and every bit of intervention reduces the probability of getting severely ill or dying! But reducing probability doesn't equate zero probability. 

By refusing all of the intervention, the anti-vaxxer, as well as those who refuse to go out after vaccination, are failing to grasp the concept of risk reduction.

The same argument we hear over and over on helmet debates! From both side of the debate too.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> BTW have you ever ducked a rope for freshies?


Absurd question:
Of course not


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 15, 2021)

He also was skiing in Vt all of last winter from NYC and drove to Maine while on one of his trips. So theres another example of rules for thee not for me. I don’t have a dog in this fight either way its just a little ridiculous to be saying kill the unvaxed (even if its hyperbole) while having skirted the rules yourself last year.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> "Can" and likely isn't the same thing!
> 
> Research from other countries indicated the vaccinated are far less likely to catch Covid, symptomatic or otherwise. They're also less likely to spread it due to the simple fact their antibody can suppress the virus faster than the unvaccinated.



To enter Canada vaccinated or not Covid testing is required.  We are going to Turks and Caicos the vaccinated require testing as well.  To return to the US vaccinated also require testing - they must all be way off base on your can vs likely.  Boston is in the everyone wear a mask territory again and others are going in the same direction - why because there is a likelihood that vaccinated can get covid.

In Massachusetts, 5,259,794 people or 76% of the state has received at least one dose.  Yet we are status of red in all areas except the Cape.


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> To return to the US vaccinated also require testing


Not any more.



dblskifanatic said:


> they must all be way off base on your can vs likely.


I'm afraid you're the one who's way off. Or rather, hanging onto outdated information.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Not any more.
> 
> 
> I'm afraid you're the one who's way off. Or rather, hanging onto outdated information.



*All air passengers* coming to the United States, including U.S. citizens and fully vaccinated people, are required to have a negative COVID-19 test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 before boarding a flight to the United States.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 15, 2021)

Aspen to require all employees to get vaccine








						Aspen Will Mandate COVID-19 Vaccines for Employees
					

Aspen Ski Co. has announced they will require all employees to get the COVID-19 vaccine by November 15th, according to the Aspen Times. Only employees with valid religious or medical reasons will b…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> *All air passengers* coming to the United States, including U.S. citizens and fully vaccinated people, are required to have a negative COVID-19 test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 before boarding a flight to the United States.


That’s only for air passengers. Not for land border crossings.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

Back to the Dead and Company discussion.   Maybe in Hartford or other places the entry scans were lax, but they are in fact trying to do the right thing with the resources available to them.  Message from Bob Weir today:






We'll see you this evening, Deer Creek! Doors: 5:30pm ET / Showtime: 7pm ET. Live show will be available at https://livedead.co.⁣⁣
⁣⁣⁣
Be patient, be kind + show up with ample time to make it through security – expect lines and delays so don’t arrive late and miss any of the magic! Health Check Required! Please arrive early and have your proof of full vaccination or negative COVID test within 48 hours ready. ALL fans in the pit will need to be fully vaccinated. For full COVID-19 protocols visit DeadAndCompany.com⁣⁣
⁣⁣⁣
We are offering a limited number of COVID-19 tests at the venue. Simply schedule your 15-minute rapid antigen test, show up to the venue at your requested time, and proceed to the designated testing area. Your confidential results will be uploaded to your phone so you can enter the gates with proof of a negative test! https://bit.ly/398GCuD
⁣


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Back to the Dead and Company discussion.   Maybe in Hartford or other places the entry scans were lax, but they are in fact trying to do the right thing with the resources available to them.  Message from Bob Weir today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same notice we got 
No where on there does it say bring an ID? I did but never had to show it.
What good is a vax card check with no identity check?


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

It probably should say that.  But the fact that they are communicating this for every show and actually offering on site testing are good things.   There is likely a far higher vaccination percentage of fans in attendance at those shows than what exists in the general population.  No it's not perfect.  My local music club probably isn't either. But efforts are being made.  It is more than just virtue signaling.  It certainly is likely to give many folks pause before deciding to break the rules.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 15, 2021)

you dont carry an ID to any concert or bar where you may need to show proof of age for alcohol consumption? you fucking dolt.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you dont carry an ID to any concert or bar where you may need to show proof of age for alcohol consumption? you fucking dolt.


Can you read or are you that upset?
i clearly wrote i had and ID and they never even asked for it.

i still think you should answer for your “piece of shit” apparent interstate travel antics. I assume if you dont you are a guilty “piece of shit”


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 15, 2021)

I don't owe you an explanation for anything. but if you must know, I did a full 2 week quarantine before each 2 week trip to new england. i skied on other weekends by myself and did not drive with, lodge with, or ski with anyone last season. i work from home. i got my groceries delivered all ski season. i essentially lived in a state of quarantine>ski>quarantine for 6 months. 

if I were to ever meet you in person you'd get a fucking slap in the mouth that's for sure.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It probably should say that.  But the fact that they are communicating this for every show and actually offering on site testing are good things.   There is likely a far higher vaccination percentage of fans in attendance at those shows than what exists in the general population.  No it's not perfect.  My local music club probably isn't either. But efforts are being made.  It is more than just virtue signaling.  It certainly is likely to give many folks pause before deciding to break the rules.


I don’t think we need to use inflamitory language like “virtue signalling” but it was a joke.
the band may not even know what the volunteer vax checkers were doing. I say volunteer because my friends wife volunteered the first night we went.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if I were to ever meet you in person you'd get a fucking slap in the mouth that's for sure.


I am at Sunday River every weekend 
stop by i am not hard to miss and i will even give you the first shot free 
don‘t expect just a slap back tho 
i am the kind of ”piece of shit” that doesn’t fight “fair”

violence is the solution to all your problems huh?

DHS as a moderator i have a question: is threatening members with physical violence accepted here? I havent read the forum rules in great detail


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2021)

I've been to 3 concerts in since the end of august where vax or test results were requried.    each time the person checking looked at my license and my vax card on my phone.  

I think its better than nothing and its been great to see live music again.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if I were to ever meet you in person you'd get a fucking slap in the mouth that's for sure.



Dude take a few more bong hits and chill...


----------



## skiur (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Testing has to be for everyone the vaccinated can get covid too!  Why does everyone feel like vaccinated can walk around freely and everything is OK.  Better off more than likely,  But if a vaccinated person gets Covid they are just as much of a spreader as the unvaccinated.  In fact in some case are even silent spreaders due to lack of symptoms.



Well too bad for the unvaccinated, they should have got the vaccine.


----------



## skiur (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Vaccinations have been recorded on paper and there are many who have copied these and digitally modified and reprinted on the same card stock,  It is pretty easy especially with the younger tech savvy crowd.  I am pretty sure that someone checking vax cards would not be able to tell the difference.  Heck when we are in NYC recently they had signs on the restaurant doors stating the show of vax proof was required.  we started to take the cards out and they waved us in without looking.



Enforcement of NYC vaccine mandate just started this week.  You were there during the grace period.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

I'm guessing the reason why there's no mention of ID in the D&C message is there are no age limits to the shows.  I saw the real Grateful Dead with Garcia starting at age 13 and probably a dozen times before I even had a driver's license.  They've literally been my favorite band since I was 9 years old.   There are likely plenty of underage kids  at those shows that couldn't meet that requirement.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm guessing the reason why there's no mention of ID in the D&C message is there are no age limits to the shows.  I saw the real Grateful Dead with Garcia starting at age 13 and probably a dozen times before I even had a driver's license.  They've literally been my favorite band since I was 9 years old.   There are likely plenty of underage kids  at those shows that couldn't meet that requirement.


lots of young fans there too
went to my first show at 14 at a venue that is now a lumber yard.
That doesn't make the covid check of any value tho does it?


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> lots of young fans there too
> went to my first show at 14 at a venue that is now a lumber yard.
> That doesn't make the covid check of any value tho does it?



I have repeatedly said that it's not perfect, but likely the best that could be executed given available resources and it is better than nothing.  
It is better than the alternative of doing nothing in my eyes.  

Do I need to clarify my position further?


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I have repeatedly said that it's not perfect, but likely the best that could be executed given available resources and it is better than nothing.
> It is better than the alternative of doing nothing in my eyes.
> 
> Do I need to clarify my position further?


Nope
i would like to know if the moderators condone members threatening other members with physical violence. I am not afraid for myself but it seems KK has some real anger issues that might be best served with a little time away from the keyboard.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 15, 2021)

you are a fucking loser.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Also
> 
> *So if one of your vaccinated sons is exposed to some vaccinated kid in his classroom that gets covid,  The results are the same.*


Right, but the likely hood that happening if the entire class is vaccinated is a lot less than if half the kids are unvaccinated.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you are a fucking loser.


And you shown yourself to be a winner


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Nope
> i would like to know if the moderators condone members threatening other members with physical violence. I am not afraid for myself but it seems KK has some real anger issues that might be best served with a little time away from the keyboard.



No, he probably shouldn't do that.  You also probably shouldn't engage him further either. 

I'm not here to play recess monitor though


----------



## boston_e (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Testing has to be for everyone the vaccinated can get covid too!  Why does everyone feel like vaccinated can walk around freely and everything is OK.  Better off more than likely,  But if a vaccinated person gets Covid they are just as much of a spreader as the unvaccinated.  In fact in some case are even silent spreaders due to lack of symptoms.


Again, nobody is saying the vaccines are 100%.  Contracting and spreading is much less likely among the vaccinated even though it can happen.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you are a fucking loser.


Come on man. ...
  Grow up for Christ sake.  If I wanna see useless profanity laced bickering I'll go to the SR forum


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> No, he probably shouldn't do that.  You also probably shouldn't engage him further either.
> 
> I'm not here to play recess monitor though


Good answer
he threatens me with a slap in the face (lol) because he disagrees with my non-violent points of view and your advise is for me to stop engaging him.
makes sense especially when you agree with him, good moderation right there, solid


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 15, 2021)

would you prefer a closed fist that breaks your teeth?


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Come on man. ...
> Grow up for Christ sake.  If I wanna see useless profanity laced bickering I'll go to the SR forum


I think you know who i am?
i follow that thread and I haven’t seen anyone threaten to slap anyone let alone the profanity (i could care less, that shows his debating skills) he is spewing. Its the same three-four people (you included) spewing the same points over and over and over.


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> would you prefer a closed fist that breaks your teeth?


i told you where i am every weekend
tell you what, show up and i will even get you a discounted lift ticket


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 15, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I think you know who i am?
> i follow that thread and I haven’t seen anyone threaten to slap anyone let alone the profanity (i could care less, that shows his debating skills) he is spewing. Its the same three-four people (you included) spewing the same points over and over and over.


No, I don't know, or care who you are.  
Been @ SR for 35 years, so I'm sure we've crossed paths

Just tired of the childish FU, No U FU...... NO U FU

Enjoy the discussion, but not the 3-4yo antics


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

2Planker said:


> No, I don't know, or care who you are.
> 
> Just tired of the childish FU, No U FU...... NO U FU
> 
> Enjoy the discussion, but not the 3-4yo antics


You should not care but i am fairly active on that board and i figured you picked up on it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Good answer
> he threatens me with a slap in the face (lol) because he disagrees with my non-violent points of view and your advise is for me to stop engaging him.
> makes sense especially when you agree with him, good moderation right there, solid



I said I think what he said was wrong and he probably shouldn't be saying that.  

I also think that you are purposely trying to needle him to get a rise out of him as well.

It's kinda like when my 6 year old shoves my 3 year old.  The 6 year old is wrong, but most of the time the 3 year old has egged him on. 

That's what I see here.  

And you also got pretty Agro in asking him to come find you.  

And now you come crying to me to do something about it? 

All set.  

My agreement with his position on vaccines has nothing to do with it.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 15, 2021)

Nope


Andrew B. said:


> You should not care but i am fairly active on that board and i figured you picked up on it.


Nope,  not at all.
Couldn't care less

 Agree w/ DHS


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I said I think what he said was wrong and he probably shouldn't be saying that.
> 
> I also think that you are purposely trying to needle him to get a rise out of him as well.
> 
> ...


You got the ages wrong


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> That’s only for air passengers. Not for land border crossings.



I have not figured out how to do a land crossing from Turk and Caicos which was my initial travel discussion.  The point was that if the vaccine is so good then why do they want people to still test for Covid - because they possibly can get covid.  So in effect we should all be wearing masks still.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Dude take a few more bong hits and chill...



Right?  None of his antics are necessary!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2021)

there's a lot of unnecessary animosity in the last few pages.  I'm all for discussion and we all wont agree all of the time but that doesn't mean that we have to be assholes about it.  like I said serious problem with the world in general...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Again, nobody is saying the vaccines are 100%.  Contracting and spreading is much less likely among the vaccinated even though it can happen.



I know of at least 8 people that have been vaccinated and they have covid just in the past few weeks.  That is more than the number of people I know that had in the past 18 months.  Pay attention because this will be bigger than everyone on here believes.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know of at least 8 people that have been vaccinated and they have covid just in the past few weeks.  That is more than the number of people I know that had in the past 18 months.  Pay attention because this will be bigger than everyone on here believes.


That's all DELTA.  Way more transmissible than what we were dealing with at this time last year.
 Boston ICU's are full, and hospitals are starting to defer "elective procedures".  

Folks are starting to throw in the towel. Sad, but not unexpected....


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I have not figured out how to do a land crossing from Turk and Caicos which was my initial travel discussion.  The point was that *if the vaccine is so good then why do they want people to still test for Covid *- because they possibly can get covid.  So in effect we should all be wearing masks still.


That's cheesy. The original context was this:


abc said:


> "Can" and likely isn't the same thing!


Which is exactly my point and is right on with your not comprehending the difference between "can" vs likely. 

The US no longer require all of its citizens returning from Canada to be tested. So your example no longer supports your assertion that vaccinated people "can" get Covid is such a big deal!


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know of at least 8 people that have been vaccinated and they have covid just in the past few weeks.  That is more than the number of people I know that had in the past 18 months.  Pay attention because this will be bigger than everyone on here believes.


I too, know 2 close friends who are double vaccinated and caught Covid afterward. Both recovered quickly and fully. 2-3 days of "cold like symptoms". The guys (who were 70+) were seen playing tennis the following week! His wife, who are also fully vaccinated, didn't even test positive.

I'm "paying attention" but I came to a very different conclusion. While breakthrough infection happens, the outcome was no worse than getting the flu. We never lock down the country for the tens of thousands of flu death every year, we shouldn't do that for Covid either. Especially not for the intentionally unvaccinated!


----------



## boston_e (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I have not figured out how to do a land crossing from Turk and Caicos which was my initial travel discussion.  The point was that if the vaccine is so good then why do they want people to still test for Covid - because they possibly can get covid.  So in effect we should all be wearing masks still.


Again the vaccine provides a layer of protection against infection, but it is not 100%.  Many areas are still asking people to mask up.  That does not mean that vaccines are not effective or that they are not “good”

You seem to be dismissing the vaccine as useless because it is not 100% effective which is a ridiculious position to take.


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

^ I ran into quite some people who want to run back into their little rabbit hole they've been hiding the past 18 months despite having fully vaccinated. I don't know what to say to them except I'll have more space to roam if they don't come out!


----------



## boston_e (Sep 15, 2021)

abc said:


> ^ I ran into quite some people who want to run back into their little rabbit hole they've been hiding the past 18 months despite having fully vaccinated. I don't know what to say to them except I'll have more space to roam if they don't come out!


I can’t say I know anyone who wants to go back into full quarantine.  I do know people who would much prefer to attend shows or restaurants where proof of vaccination or negative test is required for entry, or don’t mind if their employer makes the vaccine mandatory or if it were added to the list of required immunizations to go to school.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I have not figured out how to do a land crossing from Turk and Caicos which was my initial travel discussion.  The point was that if the vaccine is so good then why do they want people to still test for Covid - because they possibly can get covid.  So in effect we should all be wearing masks still.


Serious question for you... 

Do you what the actual percentage of breakthrough COVID infections amongst the vaccinated is?

And then what is the percentage of breakthrough infections that require hospitalization?

And what is the percentage of breakthrough infections who pass away from COVID? Especially in the sub 65yr old age demographic? 

Actual numbers vs perceived numbers matters if we are to have an honest conversation about this topic, rather than an emotional rant


----------



## thebigo (Sep 15, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Come on man. ...
> Grow up for Christ sake.  If I wanna see useless profanity laced bickering I'll go to the SR forum


Is there still a dedicated SR forum? Address?


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I do know people who would much prefer to attend shows or restaurants where proof of vaccination or negative test is required for entry


I would prefer that too. Just that I wouldn't be too upset if some shows and restaurants choose not to require them (or enforce the requirement), even though I hope they all do. But I've met some who would want to force the restaurants to perform police duty so to conform to their own preference.


----------



## abc (Sep 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> don’t mind if their employer makes the vaccine mandatory or if it were added to the list of required immunizations to go to school.


I don't care if employer mandates vaccine. OK, I care a little bit. I prefer they offer the option of daily testing, at the employees expense. So those who feel strongly against vaccine have a choice to make, an expensive choice they could make.

Same for school too.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 16, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Is there still a dedicated SR forum? Address?



https://sundayriverchatroom.boards.net/board/1/


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

abc said:


> I too, know 2 close friends who are double vaccinated and caught Covid afterward. Both recovered quickly and fully. 2-3 days of "cold like symptoms". The guys (who were 70+) were seen playing tennis the following week! His wife, who are also fully vaccinated, didn't even test positive.
> 
> I'm "paying attention" but I came to a very different conclusion. While breakthrough infection happens, the outcome was no worse than getting the flu. We never lock down the country for the tens of thousands of flu death every year, we shouldn't do that for Covid either. Especially not for the intentionally unvaccinated!



I agree with you 100% on this!  But how will businesses, states and federal respond is the question and we can not predict that.  Boston and Boston Metro is in full face mask mode for example.  Yet you can sit at a bar shoulder to shoulder.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Again the vaccine provides a layer of protection against infection, but it is not 100%.  Many areas are still asking people to mask up.  That does not mean that vaccines are not effective or that they are not “good”
> 
> You seem to be dismissing the vaccine as useless because it is not 100% effective which is a ridiculious position to take.



No I am not - the vaccine helps to reduce symptoms and some may even be asymptomatic - also slows transmission possibly.  I am vaccinated.  My point was that while the vaccine has its benefits, that are many who are getting covid again.  Once they have covid again they become silent or unknowing spreaders because they are inclined to go out and unknowingly spread covid because they have mild symptoms or none.  Albeit the duration of the infection is possibly short so there is that at least.  So the mask wearing should have continued, whereas the message was live life normally you are safe now that you have the vaccine.  To be honest, I do live life normally and I did prior to the vaccines as well.

Part two - is the messaging to those who are afraid.  Most of us blow it off for the most part but those who live in fear - well the latest rounds of everyone needs a mask has to be freaking them out.


----------



## abc (Sep 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> But how will businesses, states and federal respond is the question


Hence my assertion we have not a problem of people not vaccinated, but of a problem of the government and business response to "protect" the unvaccinated, at the expense of the vaccinated!

I almost feel like it's time for the "vaccinated left" to demand our "freedom and liberty" regardless of how many unvaccinated get sick or die!



> Boston and Boston Metro is in full face mask mode for example.  Yet you can sit at a bar shoulder to shoulder.


I'm actually ok with that situation. Any public space people "NEED" to get into (public transport, hospital etc) can require masks. Heck, it's a good idea even if it's not required!

A bar isn't a necessity. So I feel it should be left up to the owner to decide whether to require it or not. If I were young and healthy, I'd even visit those venues not requiring masks! But if I were 70 or have a immunocompromised person I live with, I'd choose to visit only those that require vaccine and/or mask! It's a freedom of choice for the bar owner, and a freedom of choice for the patrons. We choose where to eat and drink based on the food/drink quality and service before the pandemic. We will simply add Covid practice to that list. Nothing unusual there.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Serious question for you...
> 
> Do you what the actual percentage of breakthrough COVID infections amongst the vaccinated is?  That can not be determined due to milder symptoms and others being asymptomatic where hospitalization was not needed or even covid testing was not performed.
> 
> ...



Responses in blue.  I am not trying to say that the numbers will be crazy for those vaccinated but we will see where things go next.  I am also not saying the vaccines are not effective. However, how many starts and stops happened over the past 18 months where spikes followed periods of feeling like being out of the woods where people got too comfortable.  I do not really care where things go.  But for those sitting on the fence - what is their perception when mask requirements are now returning for everyone.


----------



## abc (Sep 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> However, how many starts and stops happened over the past 18 months where spikes followed periods of feeling like being out of the woods where people got too comfortable.


The "starts and stops" are necessary because this is an unknown virus. We can't pretend we know the best course of action when we don't actually know!

I know people naturally crave certainty. But with a new virus, there is no certainty. So what people are really asking is false certainty here!

Sadly, there're plenty of people who are all too willing to provide that false certainty. And people ate it right up.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

abc said:


> The "starts and stops" are necessary because this is an unknown virus. We can't pretend we know the best course of action when we don't actually know!
> 
> I know people naturally crave certainty. But with a new virus, there is no certainty. So what people are really asking is false certainty here!
> 
> Sadly, there're plenty of people who are all too willing to provide that false certainty. And people ate it right up.



I agree again!  Unfortunately there are inconsistencies in reporting and recommended actions by CDC, WHO, US Government, Media local and national and other countries.


----------



## abc (Sep 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I agree again!  Unfortunately there are inconsistencies in reporting and recommended actions by CDC, WHO, US Government, Media local and national and other countries.


Some inconsistency are to be expected. With anything new, there will be some degree of uncertainty and disagreement. 

And sometimes, decision needs to be made on the basis of "best guess". Naturally those guesses aren't going to be identical from one expert to another. Even mistakes are to be expected. 

People want certainty so much. They need to turn to the Bible. (sigh...)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Some inconsistency are to be expected. With anything new, there will be some degree of uncertainty and disagreement.
> 
> And sometimes, decision needs to be made on the basis of "best guess". Naturally those guesses aren't going to be identical from one expert to another. Even mistakes are to be expected.
> 
> People want certainty so much. They need to turn to the Bible. (sigh...)



Hence - some have raging debates and get personal - not saying you!


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2021)

Starting to spread like wild fire - more mask mandates - vaccinated included









						[BREAKING] Mask mandate activated in Colorado mountain community for those aged two-plus | OutThere Colorado
					

A recent surge in COVID-19 case numbers has Pitkin County health officials reinstating an indoor mask mandate for those aged two or higher. According to a press release on the




					www.outtherecolorado.com


----------



## abc (Sep 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Hence - some have raging debates and get personal - not saying you!


This is a ski forum! Not an immunological research institute!

To pass the time in summer, it's fine to debate or even speculate for sport. Sometimes even information (or misinformation) can dribble in too. Particularly when it pertains to to coming ski season. But no need to take it too seriously. None of us are experts in the field (hint, the real experts in the field are too busy doing the research, not posting on an idle ski forum in the summer!  ). So whatever got posted here are just idle thoughts.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Our country is fucked because this is the only way people know how to talk to each other now...


So sad.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 16, 2021)

Thanks for the riveting entertainment guys!

I'm so over all that is COVID.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I'm so over all that is COVID.


I think we all are.  Unfortunately COVID is not over with us.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

We need to stop treating Covid as a huge threat to anyone under 50 - and probably older than that.  The people freaking out about schools being open are not following the science.

At this point anyone who wants a vaccine has had the opportunity to get one.  It's too bad that there are breakthrough cases, but the vast majority are no big deal.  Mine was about the most anti-climatic thing I have ever seen.

Keep things open.  If you want to be a hermit - then you are free to be one.  But if you want to live your life, then go ahead.

And for the love of God, stop making this political.  Four out of the five top states for deaths per capita are led by Democratic governors.  And yet all you hear about is Florida and Texas - neither of which are in the top 5.  Florida is 10th, and when you factor in the average age of their population, they are doing even better.  Texas is 23rd.

The Democrats have targeted Desantis since he is the front runner for 2024 - and they are using the pandemic as their weapon against him.  That isn't going to convince anyone in Florida to get vaccinated.  It actually has the opposite effect.  And Biden is lashing out more and more trying to find scapegoats since his promises to get Covid under control are falling flat.  Mind you, I don't think that there is much more Biden can do - but he made some lofty promises and is now feeling exposed because of it.









						U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
					

As of November 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 437 deaths per 100,000 population. Vermont had the lowest death rate.




					www.statista.com


----------



## tumbler (Sep 17, 2021)

No, only people over the age 12 can get a vaccine.  It is spreading among kids under the age of 12 in schools.  I don't have a problem with schools being open but need to have masks.  Again, the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting covid but it lessens the effect of it.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Again, the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting covid but it lessens the effect of it.


It also reduces the chances that you will get it at all.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

tumbler said:


> It is spreading among kids under the age of 12 in schools.



And so does the common cold.  The odds of a grade school aged child having serious complications from Covid are statistically insignificant.  I recall reading somewhere that they are lower for an unvaccinated child than a vaccinated adult - although I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> We need to stop treating Covid as a huge threat to anyone under 50 - and probably older than that.  The people freaking out about schools being open are not following the science.
> 
> At this point anyone who wants a vaccine has had the opportunity to get one.  It's too bad that there are breakthrough cases, but the vast majority are no big deal.  Mine was about the most anti-climatic thing I have ever seen.
> 
> ...



On the individual level there is truth to what you are saying regarding younger more healthy people in general.  What your post isn't touching on is that as a society we have to get this under control and the best way to do that is to get more people vaccinated  The rate at which hospitals and ICUs are having to deal with this is not sustainable in the long term.  Likewise we can all feel the effects of the pandemic on things like supply chain etc.

I don't know anyone advocating for schools or other business to not be open.  Most, however, would like local school boards to have the ability to implement mask or other distancing measures if their situation ends up requiring it, rather than having a top down ban on masks by governors who are trying to score political points with their base.  Most would also like to see the covid vaccine added to the list of required immunizations to attend school along with polio, MMR etc etc.  

Desantis has brought a lot of the scrutiny on himself by putting his own political aspirations and scoring political points ahead of the health of his constituents.


----------



## Edd (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> We need to stop treating Covid as a huge threat to anyone under 50 - and probably older than that.  The people freaking out about schools being open are not following the science.
> 
> At this point anyone who wants a vaccine has had the opportunity to get one.  It's too bad that there are breakthrough cases, but the vast majority are no big deal.  Mine was about the most anti-climatic thing I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


”Stop making this political”, you say, just before posting two paragraphs of anti-Dem political content.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> And so does the common cold.  The odds of a grade school aged child having serious complications from Covid are statistically insignificant.  I recall reading somewhere that they are lower for an unvaccinated child than a vaccinated adult - although I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement.


Again, you are looking at this on the micro level, rather than on the overall need to get this pandemic finally under control


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

Edd said:


> ”Stop making this political”, you say, just before posting two paragraphs of anti-Dem political content.



Am I wrong about the statistics for Florida and Texas - and the disproportionate hysteria over those two states?

And why did you ignore my statement that, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do."?

This is the problem with politically motived people these days.  They simply cannot accept criticism of their "tribe."  As a moderate it drives me crazy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Again, you are looking at this on the micro level, rather than on the overall need to get this pandemic finally under control



Quite the opposite.  I was looking at the macro level - which tells us that Covid is not nearly the threat to children that most people think it is.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Am I wrong about the statistics for Florida and Texas - and the disproportionate hysteria over those two states?
> 
> And why did you ignore my statement that, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do."?


Depends if you want to look at overall cases, hospitalizations and deaths since the start of the pandemic, or at trends and numbers since the vaccine has become available.  Florida and Texas have had some of the worst numbers recently, despite having the best weapon there is at our fingertips.

It is not coincidence now that states with lower vaccination rates are experiencing higher numbers of cases, hospitalizations and deaths nowadays.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Quite the opposite.  I was looking at the macro level - which tells us that Covid is not nearly the threat to children that most people think it is.


 Children spread it to others.  We need to reduce the overall spread.  We can do that by reducing the number of children who get infected.  We can reduce the number of children who get infected by allowing schools to have mask and distancing requirements if their covid situation warrants it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Depends if you want to look at overall cases, hospitalizations and deaths since the start of the pandemic, or at trends and numbers since the vaccine has become available.  Florida and Texas have had some of the worst numbers recently, despite having the best weapon there is at our fingertips.
> 
> It is not coincidence now that states with lower vaccination rates are experiencing higher numbers of cases, hospitalizations and deaths nowadays.



For active cases, Florida is up there (3rd), but Texas is 21st as far as active cases per capita - which is completely disproportionate for the hysteria we ae seeing.  But for current death rates, your point about Florida is well taken.  Texas is a more respectable 7th.  Still bad, but definitely not the worst.

Frankly, what appears to matter most right now is the overall health of the population - and what people aren't mentioning is that the southern United States has among the least healthy people in the entire country.  If you adjust for obesity rates, smoking, and other conditions, I suspect that the southern states aren't doing as badly as it appears.  But then there is the question as to why the people in those states are so unhealthy to begin with...

This also explains in part why the United States has so many deaths.  We are a nation of very unhealthy people.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> For active cases, Florida is up there (3rd), but Texas is 21st as far as active cases per capita.  But for current death rates, your point about Florida is well taken.  Texas is a more respectable 7th.  Still bad, but definitely not the worst.



Florida data has to also be taken with the grain of salt of the significant percentage of their population that is over 65, and often with multiple co-morbidities, where the overall risk factor, just based on those 2 things, regardless of vaccination status, is going to be higher.

Additionally now it appears that some of the hospitalization numbers, as well as death numbers are starting to be obscured again by the "hospitalized/died FROM/DUE TO Covid" vs the 'hospitalized/died while they had Covid" data game again.

I think that we all can agree a say 8 year old who fell off a swing and broke his arm and had to be hospitalized for surgical correction and tested postive for Covid upon admisssion is far different than an 80 year old with hypertension and diabtetes who tested positive when they went to the hospital complaining of chest pains.  

We really do HAVE to look at the details, and not just the headline. We still do have the ability to critically think afterall


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Children spread it to others.  We need to reduce the overall spread.  We can do that by reducing the number of children who get infected.  We can reduce the number of children who get infected by allowing schools to have mask and distancing requirements if their covid situation warrants it.


Hmmm... I seem to recall some study showing small children don't seem to spread it to adults as readily as adult to adult. One hypothesis was they're so short their breath fall to the ground before entering an adult's nose. 

Besides, it still boils down to adult vaccination rate. If all the adults around the children are vaccinated, and the children aren't getting seriously sick from the disease, the argument to vaccinate little children evaporates.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Am I wrong about the statistics for Florida and Texas - and the disproportionate hysteria over those two states?
> 
> And why did you ignore my statement that, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do."?
> 
> This is the problem with politically motived people these days.  They simply cannot accept criticism of their "tribe."  As a moderate it drives me crazy.



Give me a break.  You're one of the most political motivated people in this forum and just unleashed the most political post in this thread by far.  You're lack of self awareness is comical.  Im not denying my own political participation from time to time in these forums, but your denial of the same is a joke.  You have one of the highest ratios of political crowbar uses over the past several years by far.  

And your stastics for FL and TX are completely cherry picked to say, "see my team is better."

The reason the death rates were much higher in those dummy dem run states is they were all hit hard early on. They didn't have the benefits of treatment discovery before having a problem like TX and FL.  You know this is true, but just wanted to win one for your tribe.  Look to current stats on hospitalizations, positive tests etc and it's quite clear that states with higher vaccination rates and better mitigation efforts are doing better now. 

Now back to the topic at hand, yes Covid is being over sensationalized currently given the data.  But it's still worthy of great focus as the negative impacts on the healthcare system is still being felt in many areas.  There's also the fact that the vaccine isn't as effective as we hoped.  I read a stat the other day that 9% of deaths since April have been via breakthrough cases.  This is not being talked about because the CDC doesn't want more people to refuse the jab than they are already. 

Have a good day sir.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

As we continue to barrel towards the inevitable end of this thread...


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> As we continue to barrel towards the inevitable end of this thread...


And the inevitable end of this country as we know it...

Or the inevitable end of summer


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

abc said:


> And the inevitable end of this country as we know it...
> 
> Or the inevitable end of summer


Good lord SO negative here.

Inevitably the snow will fly.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 17, 2021)

And we will ski....


----------



## machski (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Children spread it to others.  We need to reduce the overall spread.  We can do that by reducing the number of children who get infected.  We can reduce the number of children who get infected by allowing schools to have mask and distancing requirements if their covid situation warrants it.


The only issue with hanging your hat in masking in schools is that kids are not great at wearing them (at a minimum properly) all day in school.  Teachers wind up wasting time in class harping on students to adjust masks properly.  I have heard some schools to reduce this have gone to a call to admin office, which in turn sends an admin to the classroom and removes said student improperly wearing a mask.  Not to mention the kids constantly touching and adjusting them throughout the day.  I think the usefulness of masks in schools due to this far too overblown.  Even last year, there were major surges in schools when masks were mandatory pretty much nationwide.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> As we continue to barrel towards the inevitable end of this thread...



let it open so all of this garbage can stay in one spot...


----------



## Dickc (Sep 17, 2021)

If the press was not SOOO much into bad news.  I think Don Henley sang it well

Dirty Laundry


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

Dickc said:


> If the press was not SOOO much into bad news.  I think Don Henley sang it well
> 
> Dirty Laundry


Agreed all the more reason to not have it here.

Bad news sells that's why media loves it.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Desantis has brought a lot of the scrutiny on himself by putting his own political aspirations and scoring political points ahead of the health of his constituents.


I'm not a Desantis fan or a Florida fan. Not my kind of climate.

I don't trust any politician and I think you are a bit naive if you think Desantis is the only one putting his interests over those of the general population. They are all equally guilty of that on both sides.


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I think you are a bit naive if you think Desantis is the only one putting his interests over those of the general population. They are all equally guilty of that on both sides.


No, not equally. Some are more guilty than others, by a lot


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I'm not a Desantis fan or a Florida fan. Not my kind of climate.
> 
> I don't trust any politician and I think you are a bit naive if you think Desantis is the only one putting his interests over those of the general population. They are all equally guilty of that on both sides.



I never said Desantis was the only one.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Give me a break. [You]* just unleashed the most political post in this thread by far.*



Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do," or are you just such a partisan hack that you expect everyone to ignore that I said that?

Crawl out of your tribal shelter, my friend.  Those of us who are moderates are embarrassed by how partisan things have become.


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Crawl out of your tribal shelter, my friend.  Those of us who are moderates are embarrassed by how partisan things have become.


"Those of us who're moderators"? I guess there're many more hidden moderators we don't know about then...?


----------



## Edd (Sep 17, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do," or are you just such a partisan hack that you expect everyone to ignore that I said that?
> 
> Crawl out of your tribal shelter, my friend.  Those of us who are moderates are embarrassed by how partisan things have become.


Dude, that was your only neutral sentence in two paragraphs. I can’t read your mind, so maybe you’re a moderate, but you don’t post like a moderate. Just own your bullshit.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

abc said:


> "Those of us who're moderators"? I guess there're many more hidden moderators we don't know about then...?


"moderates" not "moderators"


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I never said Desantis was the only one.


But he is the only one you mentioned.


----------



## Edd (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> But he is the only one you mentioned.


Sure you want to get in on this? You’re always bemoaning political threads yet here you are diving into the fray. In or out?


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

abc said:


> No, not equally. Some are more guilty than others, by a lot


Let's face it we don't know who is responsible for what or to what extent. 

Maybe when I'm in my 80's the truth will come out after all these crooks from both sides are dead.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

Edd said:


> Sure you want to get in on this? You’re always bemoaning political threads yet here you are diving into the fray. In or out?


Just stating facts. We should all enjoy the fact that we are all equally guilty of causing the current dysfunctional situation we find ourselves in. And maybe work together with respect to all and solve it.

As a moderator I'm compelled to read it. And what's it to you if I decide to stick my toes into the water?

Of course my other option is to lock this dumpster fire.


----------



## Edd (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Just stating facts. We should all enjoy the fact that we are all equally guilty of causing the current dysfunctional situation we find ourselves in. And maybe work together with respect to all and solve it.
> 
> As a moderator I'm compelled to read it. And what's it to you if I decide to stick my toes into the water?
> 
> Of course my other option is to lock this dumpster fire.


I’d say lock it and stfu. You’re not adding value to the thread by always complaining about it. Kill it.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> But he is the only one you mentioned.


I was replying to a post that specifically mentioned Desantis.


----------



## Edd (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Your wish is my command!


I’m impressed.


----------



## Not Sure (Sep 17, 2021)

JimG. said:


> And maybe work together with respect to all and solve it.


Interesting   article with some perplexing conclusions.








						India's Ivermectin Blackout - Part III: The Lesson of Kerala
					

The Ivermectin Effect




					www.thedesertreview.com


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

With all this aside - it seems pretty clear that by this winter we will not be in a post Covid world.

I'm going to predict that this winter we won't see much different from usual in the outdoor part of things.  The one possible exception i can think of might be gondola capacity if numbers really begin to spike again.

I would not be at all surprised to see some sort of capacity limits in lodges and shops.  Potentially proof of vaccination or negative test required in some situations (apres ski bars / lounges come to mind as a possible spot for this).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> With all this aside - it seems pretty clear that by this winter we will not be in a post Covid world.
> 
> I'm going to predict that this winter we won't see much different from usual in the outdoor part of things.  The one possible exception i can think of might be gondola capacity if numbers really begin to spike again.
> 
> I would not be at all surprised to see some sort of capacity limits in lodges and shops.  Potentially proof of vaccination or negative test required in some situations (apres ski bars / lounges come to mind as a possible spot for this).


I already know of at least one popular restaurant in the MRV area that went back to take-out only. Wouldn't at all be surprised to see more follow suit.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I already know of at least one popular restaurant in the MRV area that went back to take-out only. Wouldn't at all be surprised to see more follow suit.


Along those lines, In Killington  - The PickleBarrel already announced that they will have Proof of Vaccination or recent Negative Test required for entry.  Some of the hate being thrown at them on their social media is over the top.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 17, 2021)

About two or three months ago Dr. Levine said that he could count on one hand the number of Covid cases traced to dining in a Vermont restaurant.  The kitchen staff is another story - and restaurants had better distancing back then.  But it was still surprising.


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I already know of at least one popular restaurant in the MRV area that went back to take-out only. Wouldn't at all be surprised to see more follow suit.


I wouldn't be too heart broken about that. 

One thing I started doing during the peak of pandemic was figure out how to cook just about everything in a microwave. Because I was driving back from Colorado to NY. I had to eat, but restaurant was suspect at that point... 

Turns out there's a lot you can do with just a microwave. 

Since then, I've actually fallen in love with take outs. I'm not talking about cheap Chinese/Mexican ones. But REAL restaurants doing curbside take out of some of their regular dishes. Good food, not exactly cheap. But I get to eat it at my leisure without the waitress constantly asking if my water needs refilling! 

So between curbside take out of decent restaurants and microwave recipes, I'm eating better than previous years. And a little less expensive too. Though the last point isn't super significant. Being able to eat my dinner in my pajamas is just more relaxing than having to wait for a table, wait for my food then wait to get the check!


----------



## boston_e (Sep 17, 2021)

abc said:


> I wouldn't be too heart broken about that.
> 
> One thing I started doing during the peak of pandemic was figure out how to cook just about everything in a microwave. Because I was driving back from Colorado to NY. I had to eat, but restaurant was suspect at that point...
> 
> ...


I’ve got to admit, I saved more money through quarantine from cooking at home more often than I ever would have imagined.  (We still made an effort to support locally owned restaurants getting takeout once a week).  I don’t think I’ll ever go back to eating out at the same frequency that I did pre Covid .  I bet I’m not the only one.


----------



## abc (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I don’t think I’ll ever go back to eating out at the same frequency that I did pre Covid . I bet I’m not the only one.


Given how long a wait for tables in many restaurants, they would do well by doing some take outs too. 

(granted, some restaurants are constrained by the kitchen output. But for all the others, they'll do well treating take out as "taster menu". A few restaurants I never ate in due to not able to get a table, having tasted their "taster menu" on take out, I'm more motivated to try to find a table to eat in. (ok, maybe after the Delta variant outbreak blows over).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2021)

abc said:


> I wouldn't be too heart broken about that.
> 
> One thing I started doing during the peak of pandemic was figure out how to cook just about everything in a microwave. Because I was driving back from Colorado to NY. I had to eat, but restaurant was suspect at that point...
> 
> ...



I actually enjoy cooking and am quite good at it and have always cooked at home for most of my meals every week even pre-pandemic. That doesn't change the fact that I still enjoy the experience of going out and dining at a good restaurant once in a while. Takeout is not even close to the same experience. I supported many of my favorite local restaurants in VT via takeout last winter (and have done the same in NJ throughout most of the pandemic). I'm sure I saved some money in VT last year (primarily because I was supplying the wine myself in my condo vs getting it at the restaurant on the nights I did takeout). In NJ I don't think my food spending is that different though. Many of my favorite local restaurants in NJ are BYOB, so the alcohol cost is the same to me whether I'm dining at the restaurant or getting takeout from them.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 17, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d say lock it and stfu. You’re not adding value to the thread by always complaining about it. Kill it.


My wife came home and I lost track of this BS after I said your wish is my command.

You seem very uptight and rude. Not to mention a bully. Who wants "to get in on" your discussions? Not me.

STFU? I will. And not lock this thread it's a monument to everything wrong in the world today. Closed minded people with no tolerance for other opinions.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 17, 2021)

boston_e said:


> With all this aside - it seems pretty clear that by this winter we will not be in a post Covid world.
> 
> I'm going to predict that this winter we won't see much different from usual in the outdoor part of things.  The one possible exception i can think of might be gondola capacity if numbers really begin to spike again.
> 
> I would not be at all surprised to see some sort of capacity limits in lodges and shops.  Potentially proof of vaccination or negative test required in some situations (apres ski bars / lounges come to mind as a possible spot for this).


The question is will one, objectively, look at this then as a PANDEMIC, or and ENDEMIC? 

At some point, the vast majority of society, regardless of the fear inducing click bait headlines the media keeps pushing, has to just say that they're done being scared and are ready to live their lives with the very minimal risk for most, again. And at that point society will dictate to our political leaders that we're done with their exacerbant control over our day to day lives..


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Did you miss the part where I said, "I don't think that there is much more Biden can do," or are you just such a partisan hack that you expect everyone to ignore that I said that?
> 
> Crawl out of your tribal shelter, my friend.  Those of us who are moderates are embarrassed by how partisan things have become.



You can't take a two paragraph political dump and claim "non partisan moderate' with a small sentence solid to Biden. Lol.  Not fooling anyone bud

Again, your lack self awareness is comical and you just proved it more with this comment


----------



## boston_e (Sep 18, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The question is will one, objectively, look at this then as a PANDEMIC, or and ENDEMIC?
> 
> At some point, the vast majority of society, regardless of the fear inducing click bait headlines the media keeps pushing, has to just say that they're done being scared and are ready to live their lives with the very minimal risk for most, again. And at that point society will dictate to our political leaders that we're done with their exacerbant control over our day to day lives..


I dont know anyone who is scared and pretty much everyone I know is more or less living normally.

People can live normally and still support things like adding the Covid vaccine to the list of required immunizations to attend schools, or choose to support business that require vaccination for their employees or patrons.

That stuff isn’t government control over our lives. That is the carrot and stick method to encourage the irresponsible group of people who have not yet gotten vaccinated to do so.

Bottom line is the vaccine is the solution to this pandemic.  Anyone who is not a part of the solution is part of the problem.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I actually enjoy cooking and am quite good at it and have always cooked at home for most of my meals every week even pre-pandemic. That doesn't change the fact that I still enjoy the experience of going out and dining at a good restaurant once in a while. Takeout is not even close to the same experience. I supported many of my favorite local restaurants in VT via takeout last winter (and have done the same in NJ throughout most of the pandemic). I'm sure I saved some money in VT last year (primarily because I was supplying the wine myself in my condo vs getting it at the restaurant on the nights I did takeout). In NJ I don't think my food spending is that different though. Many of my favorite local restaurants in NJ are BYOB, so the alcohol cost is the same to me whether I'm dining at the restaurant or getting takeout from them.


I too have always enjoyed cooking meals as well and think I have some specialties.  Definitely amazing though how much one can save eating in or “brown bagging” it for lunch.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 18, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I too have always enjoyed cooking meals as well and think I have some specialties.  Definitely amazing though how much one can save eating in or “brown bagging” it for lunch.



Lunch is a good point, although the prices in our cafeteria at work are subsidized by my company, so actually relatively cheap (and that's where I would eat most of the time when I was going to the office...only would eat lunch out once in a while). The real savings for me is on gas and tolls by working remotely and not having to go to the office!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 18, 2021)

abc said:


> I wouldn't be too heart broken about that.
> 
> One thing I started doing during the peak of pandemic was figure out how to cook just about everything in a microwave. Because I was driving back from Colorado to NY. I had to eat, but restaurant was suspect at that point...
> 
> ...



david chang from the momofuku group of restaurants is a microwave evangelist.

this is coming out soon



			Amazon.com
		



i went to a big outdoor techno event last night. the venue (the brooklyn mirage) finally started enforcing the policy. watching burning man morons get turned away over and over again was delicious.


----------



## Edd (Sep 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> watching burning man morons get turned away over and over again was delicious.


That sincerely does sound entertaining.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2021)

Trey Band last night had significant enforcement.  IDs being matched to vac cards or tests


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I hope not.  But then again I survived without a mega pass this year, I can continue to do so going forward if the reservation systems stay


I’m not doing this crap. If going skiing becomes a total headache I’m out. F it. I can do other activities that are just as fulfilling and where I don’t have to deal with lines, crowds and annoying hoops to jump through.


----------



## Dickc (Sep 18, 2021)

Reality check--- This article is from Yahoo, but its still interesting

Moderna more effective overall


----------



## abc (Sep 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I actually enjoy cooking and am quite good at it and have always cooked at home for most of my meals every week even pre-pandemic. That doesn't change the fact that I still enjoy the experience of going out and dining at a good restaurant once in a while. Takeout is not even close to the same experience.


I won't say I'm a good chef. Though I can cook well enough to please myself, and do so most of the time when I'm not traveling. There're times I eat out for socializing, or eat out just as a "treat". Those, I'm not cutting out. As soon as the situation allows, I'm eating out. 

But I'm talking about traveling. Especially traveling for ski. I used to eat out because that's the only way to get different food than the limited options of cheap take out. Thanks to almost all the decent restaurants offering curb side take outs, I now have a whole lot more food options, especially good foods that can be served back at my room.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 19, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m not doing this crap. If going skiing becomes a total headache I’m out. F it. I can do other activities that are just as fulfilling and where I don’t have to deal with lines, crowds and annoying hoops to jump through.


Isnt part of the idea of the reservation system (at least at some mountains) to reduce the crowds / lines etc?  Is going onto an app and making a reservation that big of a hoop to jump through?  The times I did it last year it took about 30 seconds.


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## icecoast1 (Sep 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Isnt part of the idea of the reservation system (at least at some mountains) to reduce the crowds / lines etc?  Is going onto an app and making a reservation that big of a hoop to jump through?  The times I did it last year it took about 30 seconds.


Not really a big deal to make a reservation provided the site doesn't glitch out when you try to do it, the issue is when they penalize for no shows or canceling if you change your mind


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> *The odds of a grade school aged child having serious complications from Covid are statistically insignificant.*



Today.

Tomorrow?  We have no idea.

We have no idea what the potential long-term affects of COVID19 infection on children might be, because there are no long-term follow-up data due to the fact this is a new virus.  It is not possible to know the result of a football game before it's played.

As the parent of a toddler, I am taking COVID extremely seriously for this reason, even though my wife & I are fully vaccinated - children cannot be at this date.  I'm not taking the risk that 6 years from now we learn that children who contracted COVID19 have decreased lung capacity, decreased potential for alveolar regeneration, or any of 1001 potential negative developmental affects which very well may take some number of forward years before clinical presentation.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

Catching-up reading through this thread, it's somewhat alarming the overconfidence many of the vaccinated here have, almost like they're an anti-COVID superhero.  

The breakthrough infections are massively higher than what you are being told, because your government is (once again) lying to you.  They're intentionally not counting breakthrough infections unless they lead to hospitalization or death.  This is like taking a survey of skiers & snowboarders at Jay Peak, but only counting snowboarders if they're wearing yellow coats.  Your snowboarder count is going to be wildly lower than reality.  The reason they're lying to in this manner is probably because they fear if you know you might still get COVID after vaccination, the currently unvaxxed will be even more unlikely to get vaccinated. This is, IMO, probably true given millions of morons dont get the flu vaccine each year because, _"you still might get flu"_, demonstrating they have no idea what the point of vaccination is in the first place.  I blame the government school system for that.

Net/net, I'm still not eating inside at restaurants, going to concerts, etc... and wont for a while yet.  If I didnt have a 2-year old I'd risk it, but with a non-vaxxed kid at home, I think it's enormously irresponsible/selfish for my short-term fun.  YOMV, and I respect that.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 19, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Not really a big deal to make a reservation provided the site doesn't glitch out when you try to do it, the issue is when they penalize for no shows or canceling if you change your mind


I never went through the cancellation process but I can see why they would want to discourage no-shows without some sort of notice as in theory there could be someone in line wanting to make a reservation if spots open up.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

Also, **** the FDA not "recommending" booster shots for anyone who wants one.

I dont care what their "expert panel" decides for me, both the Israeli & UK booster study data are robust enough even with some admittedly stochastic variable uncertainty & both demonstrate statistically powerful evidence of anti-COVID19 efficacy.  There's also a US study showing wild-type antibody response skyrocketing after the 3rd dose, so yeah, I'll be getting a 3rd shot of PFE at 5 months post vaccination, which will be about 1 month from now, versus allowing my antibody response to predictably drop like we now know it will.  The FDA can kiss my azz.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Catching-up reading through this thread, it's somewhat alarming the overconfidence many of the vaccinated here have, almost like they're an anti-COVID superhero.
> 
> The breakthrough infections are massively higher than what you are being told, because your government is (once again) lying to you.  They're intentionally not counting breakthrough infections unless they lead to hospitalization or death.  This is like taking a survey of skiers & snowboarders at Jay Peak, but only counting snowboarders if they're wearing yellow coats.  Your snowboarder count is going to be wildly lower than reality.  The reason they're lying to in this manner is probably because they fear if you know you might still get COVID after vaccination, the currently unvaxxed will be even more unlikely to get vaccinated. This is, IMO, probably true given millions of morons dont get the flu vaccine each year because, _"you still might get flu"_, demonstrating they have no idea what the point of vaccination is in the first place.  I blame the government school system for that.
> 
> Net/net, I'm still not eating inside at restaurants, going to concerts, etc... and wont for a while yet.  If I didnt have a 2-year old I'd risk it, but with a non-vaxxed kid at home, I think it's enormously irresponsible/selfish for my short-term fun.  YOMV, and I respect that.



I feel the same.  Though I am going to outdoor concerts in settings that allow for good social distancing.  I had many friends right up front on the rail for Trey Friday night.  I was content being in the back of the field with people several feet away from me. 

We did start going out to eat indoors again a couple of times a month in the spring, but stopped that again early in July. 

I have to attend the largest Anesthesia Convention of the year in a few weeks out in San Diego.  I'm a bit nervous about that. Mask up and hope for the best I guess.  

It's unfortunate the government pretty much has to lie about the vaccine and breakthrough cases.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Also, **** the FDA not "recommending" booster shots for anyone who wants one.
> 
> I dont care what their "expert panel" decides for me, both the Israeli & UK booster study data are robust enough even with some admittedly stochastic variable uncertainty & both demonstrate statistically powerful evidence of anti-COVID19 efficacy.  There's also a US study showing wild-type antibody response skyrocketing after the 3rd dose, so yeah, I'll be getting a 3rd shot of PFE at 5 months post vaccination, which will be about 1 month from now, versus allowing my antibody response to predictably drop like we now know it will.  The FDA can kiss my azz.



What is your strategy for gaining permission?

You also had mentioned prior getting the J&J to introduce a different style of vaccine to your system.  Something make you change that thought?

I received dose 2 of Moderna the first week of March.  I'd get a third tomorrow if available to me


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 19, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> What about the black And brown communities that don’t trust the vaccine?


Just as dumb as the angry white guys who don't trust the vaccine.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What is your strategy for gaining permission?
> 
> You also had mentioned prior getting the J&J to introduce a different style of vaccine to your system.  Something make you change that thought?
> 
> I received dose 2 of Moderna the first week of March.  I'd get a third tomorrow if available to me



Permission?   I dont need permission, I'll just schedule it at my local Rite Aid, they're awash in unused vaccines right now, and I dont suspect that will change by next month.

Regarding JNJ, when I made that comment the additional data on mRNA vaccines wasnt out yet, but it is now & it looks solid.  I still think it likely having an adenovirus vaccine will broaden antibody estate, but that's just theoretical, and given 3rd shot data is now known, I dont see a reason to go with the unknown at this moment especially given we now know mRNA vaccines achieve better results.  Though that's a bit unfair in that we dont know what the results would be if people took 2 JNJ doses like the PFE & MRNA regimens, but alas we can only know what we know, and it's difficult to compare across vaccines, but suffice it to say we definitively know that 2 doses of either PFE or MRNA are better than 1 dose JNJ.  Tonight I've been reading through the data that just came out on Friday in the CDC's M&M report, and now I'm thinking I'll probably get the MRNA shot for my booster rather than a 3rd shot of PFE, as the MRNA results are a bit better (lower hospitalization rate, longer-lasting effectiveness, and higher anti-RBD levels) than PFE.  They dont know why for sure, but one reason may be because the MRNA shot has 233% more mRNA than the PFE shot, so it could simply be a dose-dependent response.  It's interesting, because we've long known they're initially both about the same effectiveness, but one of the key bits of new information is that at about 4-months post vaccination, MRNA starts to pull away from PFE.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Permission?   I dont need permission, I'll just schedule it at my local Rite Aid, they're awash in unused vaccines right now, and I dont suspect that will change by next month.
> 
> Regarding JNJ, when I made that comment the additional data on mRNA vaccines wasnt out yet, but it is now and it looks solid.  I still think it likely having an adenovirus vaccine will broaden the antibody estate, but that's just theoretical for now, and given the 3rd shot data is now known, I dont see a reason to go with the unknown at this moment especially given we now know the mRNA vaccines achieve better results.  Though that's a bit unfair in that we dont know what the results would be if people took 2 JNJ doses like the PFE & MRNA regimens, but alas we can only know what we know, and it's difficult to compare across vaccines, but suffice it to say we definitively know that 2 doses of either PFE or MRNA are better than 1 dose of JNJ.  Tonight I've been reading through the data that just came out on Friday in the CDC's M&M report, and now I'm thinking I'll probably get the MRNA shot for my booster rather than a 3rd shot of PFE, as the MRNA results are a bit better (lower hospitalization rate, longer-lasting effectiveness, and higher anti-RBD levels) than PFE.  They dont know why for sure, but one reason may be because the MRNA shot has 233% more mRNA to it than the PFE shot, so it could simply be a dose-dependent response.  It's interesting, because initially they're both about the same effectiveness, but at about 4-months post vaccination, MRNA starts to pull away from PFE.


If you give them your real name they will likely have a record of your proir vaccine in the database and not administer a dose that falls outside of the cdc guidelines…. At least that is what happened with a friend who tried to get a Pfizer shot after previously having the J&J.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2021)

So the drug stores won't be requiring a prescription to schedule a third dose?  

I suppose the tracking of this has been so lax, you could perhaps just call your local pharmacy and say you're looking for your first vaccine and prefer Moderna / Pfizer whatever based upon what you have read.  

That's an interesting idea.  Six months ago I would not have considered such a selfish idea as I wouldn't have wanted to bump someone out of line. But as you say, there's ample vaccine on ice that the government is begging people to take.  If someone else doesn't want their first jab, pass it over for my third.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> *If you give them your real name they will likely have a record of your proir vaccine in the database and not administer a dose* that falls outside of the cdc guidelines…. At least that is what happened with a friend who tried to get a Pfizer shot after previously having the J&J.



That's interesting to hear.  I imagine there's state-by-state variability, as in NJ there was no computer.  I showed up for my appointment, checked-in at the front door where they crossed my name off a piece of paper, and sent me to the back room for the shot (no computer there either).  Millions of Americans have already taken it upon themselves to get a booster, at least 4M thus far, but possibly way more.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

Dont know how far down the rabbit hole people care to look into this, but this is one of the key charts released Friday showing efficacy over time by vaccine in preventing hospitalization in case anyone's interested.


*TABLE 2. COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness* against COVID-19–associated hospitalization among adults without immunocompromising conditions, by vaccine product — 21 hospitals in 18 U.S. states,† March–August 2021*​


----------



## cdskier (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's interesting to hear.  I imagine there's state-by-state variability, as in NJ there was no computer.  I showed up for my appointment, checked-in at the front door where they crossed my name off a piece of paper, and sent me to the back room for the shot (no computer there either).  Millions of Americans have already taken it upon themselves to get a booster, at least 4M thus far, but possibly way more.



Don't you have to give them more information when you make the appointment? The data of who is vaccinated all gets submitted to NJ's database...so I don't see how any place that is giving shots isn't asking for the info. Plus they should be billing insurance unless you tell them you don't have any.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> *Don't you have to give them more information when you make the appointment? *The data of who is vaccinated all gets submitted to NJ's database...so I don't see how any place that is giving shots isn't asking for the info. Plus they should be billing insurance unless you tell them you don't have any.



They ask for the info, but all you have to do (AFAIK in most places) is simply check that you are either moderately immunocompromised or severely immunocompromised.  In other words, lie.   Now, normally I would say that's disgracefully reprehensible behaviour, but as I mentioned before, *not* in the current climate we exist in where the vendors are swimming in unused COVID19 vaccine.

 I just checked my local Rite Aid & every date on the calendar is wide open for COVID19 appointments (see screenshot #1 below)  Keep in mind, they only schedule 1 appointment per 10 minutes, so to have 60 open slots in a day, just two days from now is quite a thing to behold!  Appointments start at 9:30am, so that is basically the entire day (see screenshot #2 below).  All wide open.   What it is is an empirical view into what we already know & has been discussed at length in this thread, that everyone who wants to be vaccinated is already vaccinated.  These vaccine vials are just rotting on the shelf at this point.  So, to each his/her own in terms of what they choose to do, but I'm getting a booster, and I dont feel the least bit guilty about it given the mathematical reality of the situation.  Screw the FDA & their "CYA first" behaviour.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> They ask for the info, but all you have to do (AFAIK in most places) is simply check that you are either moderately immunocompromised or severely immunocompromised.  In other words, lie.   Now, normally I would say that's reprehensible behaviour, but as I mentioned before, not in the current climate we exist in where the vendors are swimming in unused COVID19 vaccine.
> 
> I just checked my local Rite Aid & every date on the calendar is wide open for COVID19 appointments (see screenshot below)  Keep in mind, they only schedule 1 appointment per 10 minutes, so to have 60 open slots in a day, just two days from now is quite a thing to behold!  Appointments start at 9:40am, so that is basically the entire day.  Wide open.   What it is is an empirical view into what we already know & has been discussed at length in this thread, that everyone who wants to be vaccinated is already vaccinated.  These vaccine vials are just rotting on the shelf at this point.  So, to each his/her own in terms of what they choose to do, but I'm getting a booster, and I dont feel the least guilty about it.  Screw the FDA & their "CYA first" behaviour.



Ahh...ok...so you're legitimately telling them you're there for a 3rd shot. You're just claiming you're eligible under the immunocompromised guideline that allows a 3rd shot to people in that group. In that case, yes, I can see how they wouldn't try to verify that (or even really have a way to verify that).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2021)

so no more unscrupulous than those that were getting shots under the "obese" category early on.

In a few sentences, why is the FDA not wanting boosters?  Isn't Biden's initiative to want boosters?  I mean on one hand I'm happy that the FDA is operating independently from the President, but on the other if it makes sense then why not recommend it.   Obviously there are many people who were vaccinated and the better their immunity/protection is, the sooner that maybe we can get in front of this thing (if that's possible).  We can't possibly be "saving" these shots for those who are unvaccinated right?  I mean at this point those people have made up their mind (children excluded of course).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so no more unscrupulous than those that were getting shots under the "obese" category early on.
> 
> In a few sentences, why is the FDA not wanting boosters?  Isn't Biden's initiative to want boosters?  I mean on one hand I'm happy that the FDA is operating independently from the President, but on the other if it makes sense then why not recommend it.   Obviously there are many people who were vaccinated and the better their immunity/protection is, the sooner that maybe we can get in front of this thing (if that's possible).  We can't possibly be "saving" these shots for those who are unvaccinated right?  I mean at this point those people have made up their mind (children excluded of course).



The FDA advisory panel's reasoning is that there is not enough data yet to justify it for everyone. Some experts said the panel was forced to make the decision too early basically. A month or two from now, they might have made a different decision (and of course could change their mind and recommend approval in the future anyway). Also of note, the advisory panel's recommendation is just that...a recommendation. The FDA itself could still go against the recommendation of the panel.

Also a couple top FDA scientists are resigning due to the booster debate. They feel they are being "politically pressured" to make decisions and are supposedly resigning in protest. What Biden wants should not be relevant.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 20, 2021)

JimG. said:


> As we continue to barrel towards the inevitable end of this thread...



agree


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 20, 2021)

abc said:


> I wouldn't be too heart broken about that.
> 
> One thing I started doing during the peak of pandemic was figure out how to cook just about everything in a microwave. Because I was driving back from Colorado to NY. I had to eat, but restaurant was suspect at that point...
> 
> ...



My wife and I were never concerned about eating out.  Starting in Moab in May of last year where dinning in was allowed, to the following months as restaurants opened up, we ate out frequently because we took a stay outside approach and traveled.  Even to this day we eat out several times per week.  with the spacing, partitions and cleaning that was being done we felt totally safe.  Prior to dine-in being available in April and early May of last year, we took advantage of take-out for a bit but for us part of eating out was to get out of the house, atmosphere and feeling a little more normal.  Take-out did not check that box for us.

We made three one way trips from CO to MA and did dine in all the way.


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## abc (Sep 20, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> for us part of eating out was to get out of the house, atmosphere and feeling a little more normal. Take-out did not check that box for us.


I on the other hand, consider take out of good food from nice restaurant as the "new normal". One that I hope for anyway.

I never like the noisy, crowded indoor dining of most restaurants. Add to that the need to book tables in most of the good restaurants. But I also love good food. So I put up with the things I don't like about restaurants for their food. Take out just removed the negative and preserve the things I like about them.

I understand there're those to whom the ambiance is as important as the food. For those, dining in is still the best experience. But for them, a restaurant that offers take out of many of their menu means I wouldn't be taking up the table time slot they like.


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## kingslug (Sep 20, 2021)

I would rather eat at home...the service is usually....better.


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## abc (Sep 20, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I would rather eat at home...the service is usually....better.


Don't even get me started on that one... the non-existent "service" a wait staff is providing that adds 20% on the bill.

I don't care if my food comes out of a brown paper bag, or on a tray on top of a roving robot with wheels, it taste the same.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 20, 2021)

waiters and waitresses do hard physically demanding work and put up with a lot of assholes. if you aren't happy to tip appropriately then don't eat out.


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## Smellytele (Sep 20, 2021)

Take out at any place that isn’t a take out place( pizza, subs, salad) sucks. Food is luke warm at best. Having to warm up pizza or fries is fine. Having to warm up a steak or any meat is just plain awful.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 20, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> They ask for the info, but all you have to do (AFAIK in most places) is simply check that you are either moderately immunocompromised or severely immunocompromised.  In other words, lie.   Now, normally I would say that's disgracefully reprehensible behaviour, but as I mentioned before, *not* in the current climate we exist in where the vendors are swimming in unused COVID19 vaccine.
> 
> I just checked my local Rite Aid & every date on the calendar is wide open for COVID19 appointments (see screenshot #1 below)  Keep in mind, they only schedule 1 appointment per 10 minutes, so to have 60 open slots in a day, just two days from now is quite a thing to behold!  Appointments start at 9:30am, so that is basically the entire day (see screenshot #2 below).  All wide open.   What it is is an empirical view into what we already know & has been discussed at length in this thread, that everyone who wants to be vaccinated is already vaccinated.  These vaccine vials are just rotting on the shelf at this point.  So, to each his/her own in terms of what they choose to do, but I'm getting a booster, and I dont feel the least bit guilty about it given the mathematical reality of the situation.  Screw the FDA & their "CYA first" behaviour.


I have a question that I have not seen on here or anywhere else.  Is the Booster shot the exact same dose/strength as the other two shots or does it differ in some way?  That is the only thing that would stop me from working the system to get my 3rd shot via alternative methods and before they say I can do it.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Take out at any place that isn’t a take out place( pizza, subs, salad) sucks. Food is luke warm at best. Having to warm up pizza or fries is fine. Having to warm up a steak or any meat is just plain awful.



Agreed...there is some food that is simply not designed for take out unless you happen to live right next door to the restaurant. And even then if it is a multi-course meal, something is going to be cold by the time you get to eating that entree/course.


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## boston_e (Sep 20, 2021)

On the subject of food - one thing for sure that changed last year is that there was a lot more "tailgating" than previous years.  I wonder how many will continue doing that more often than pre-pandemic not wanting to pay base lodge prices for food and beverage?


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## Hawk (Sep 20, 2021)

I love resturaunts.  I love the atmosphere, the customs, the presentation, the people, the hardworking wait staff and chefs.  In come cases the music.  There is a time and a place for takeout but in most cases it just does not measure up.  Not to any person that truely understands what maks food exceptional.  Going back into resturaunts was probably the single greatest motivator to getting vaccinated......well maybe that's an exageration.  ;-)  My wife and I did takeout from our favortie resturaunts for months and gave 20-25% tips to support them because we did not want them to fail.  They mean that much too our community and we know most of the people that work in these places. But the timing to the table and the pace of the meal is most certainly one of the most important things to have the food come out right.  You will never get it perfect if you place the order and show to pick it up.


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## dblskifanatic (Sep 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Take out at any place that isn’t a take out place( pizza, subs, salad) sucks. Food is luke warm at best. Having to warm up pizza or fries is fine. Having to warm up a steak or any meat is just plain awful.



I agree!  When there were no dine-in restaurants, we would go pick up food then throw it back in the oven to reheat it,  Then we started tailgating.  There were to go adult bevs and the food was eaten immediately - all you needed were a few sports chairs,  Was like camping outside of the eatery!  As soon as they opened back up we were all over that!


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I have a question that I have not seen on here or anywhere else.  *Is the Booster shot the exact same dose/strength as the other two shots or does it differ in some way?*  That is the only thing that would stop me from working the system to get my 3rd shot via alternative methods and before they say I can do it.


 
Regardless of which vaccine you get, JNJ, MRNA, or PFE, the shot dosage & makeup of the booster is precisely the same as the dosage & makeup of the first shot(s).


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2021)

I wonder what most people's reaction will be to the booster.  Moderna #2  knocked me down pretty good, but only for about 18 hours


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Ahh...ok...so you're legitimately telling them you're there for a 3rd shot. You're just claiming you're eligible under the immunocompromised guideline that allows a 3rd shot to people in that group. In that case, yes, I can see how they wouldn't try to verify that (or even really have a way to verify that).





deadheadskier said:


> deadheadskier said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what most people's reaction will be to the booster.  Moderna #2  knocked me down pretty good, but only for about 18 hours
> ...


----------



## chuckstah (Sep 20, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Regardless of which vaccine you get, JNJ, MRNA, or PFE, the shot dosage & makeup of the booster is precisely the same as the dosage & makeup of the first shot(s).


As of now the booster dose  of Pfizer is scheduled to be full dose, but the Moderna bootSer dose is a half dose.








						WSJ News Exclusive | FDA Weighing Dose of Moderna Covid-19 Booster
					

The vaccine maker asked the agency to authorize a booster at half the dose given in the first two shots, but some in the government favor the higher dose to assure the strongest protection against Covid-19 variants.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Mum skier (Sep 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I love resturaunts.  I love the atmosphere, the customs, the presentation, the people, the hardworking wait staff and chefs.  In come cases the music.  There is a time and a place for takeout but in most cases it just does not measure up.  Not to any person that truely understands what maks food exceptional.  Going back into resturaunts was probably the single greatest motivator to getting vaccinated......well maybe that's an exageration.  ;-)  My wife and I did takeout from our favortie resturaunts for months and gave 20-25% tips to support them because we did not want them to fail.  They mean that much too our community and we know most of the people that work in these places. But the timing to the table and the pace of the meal is most certainly one of the most important things to have the food come out right.  You will never get it perfect if you place the order and show to pick it up.


And in a restaurant you don’t have to do your own washing up! That’s the bit worth tipping for.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 20, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> As of now the booster dose  of Pfizer is scheduled to be full dose, but the Moderna bootSer dose is a half dose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe Moderna's initial shots were stronger than the Pfizer ones.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 20, 2021)

Vail comes out with proof of vaccination required to access indoor dining.  I doubt that will be permanent but is certainly a change in the post lockdown winter.  Will be interesting to see how many other resorts follow their lead.


----------



## abc (Sep 20, 2021)

> waiters and waitresses do hard physically demanding work and put up with a lot of assholes.


It maybe hard work they're doing, but much of it unnecessary!

I can order without having someone hovering over me. I can mark on a piece of paper what item I want. Some countries do that routinely. If you can't imagine it, you haven't been around enough.

In many restaurants, the only functionality the wait staff do is to bring the food from the kitchen out to you. As I suggested earlier, it can be done by a robot or conveyer belt, which I've seen being used in a few Japanese countries.

Yes, if you're doing multiple courses, you want your courses come out at the right time. But keep in mind many appetizer are not made to order. They do sit around and got handed out when someone orders it. So do most desserts.

Even your dirty dishes aren't always taken away by the waiter/waitress. Some restaurants hire Mexican bus boys to cart them away.



> if you aren't happy to tip appropriately then don't eat out.


I'm of the opinion being "served" at restaurants are more a holdover from another era. It doesn't serve much real functionality. Only one step above having someone holding the car door open...

I enjoy good food. But I don't care for making others my servant for a couple hours. And then pretend to be gracious "tipping appropriately".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> As of now the booster dose  of Pfizer is scheduled to be full dose, but the Moderna bootSer dose is a half dose.



Well I stand corrected, and am genuinely shocked as I have never seen anything like that considered before without copious amount of data to back it up.  You do not just whilly-nilly change your dose & ask for FDA approval.  I do not believe that's going to go over well at all with the FDA, as you'd now be overlaying unprecedented **** on top of unprecedented **** by doing that.  

And the article says the motivation is to "free up" more doses?  Ummm...... maybe that's truly 100% for the benefit of mankind, and I bet it is, but unless they're donating 100% of the proceeds of the extra 50% of shots that will generate, there will be people who question whether there's a financial motivation behind it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I believe Moderna's initial shots were stronger than the Pfizer ones.


 233% stronger (100 μg versus 30 μg).


----------



## mister moose (Sep 20, 2021)

abc said:


> It maybe hard work they're doing, but much of it unnecessary!
> 
> I can order without having someone hovering over me. I can mark on a piece of paper what item I want. Some countries do that routinely. If you can't imagine it, you haven't been around enough.
> 
> In many restaurants, the only functionality the wait staff do is to bring the food from the kitchen out to you. As I suggested earlier, it can be done by a robot or conveyer belt,



Things a conveyor belt can't do:

Refill your water glass
Tell you which desserts are made in house
Explain ingredients - does the taco have Cilantro?  
fix a problem with your food - too rare, burnt, missing cheese.

Many better restaurants have runners that bring out food so it is served at its peak.

I agree the technology exists to order from your cell phone, request something mid meal, and pay the bill, all from a tablet or phone


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> It maybe hard work they're doing, but much of it unnecessary!
> 
> I can order without having someone hovering over me. I can mark on a piece of paper what item I want. Some countries do that routinely. If you can't imagine it, you haven't been around enough.
> 
> ...



You clearly haven't worked at even an Applebee's, nevermind a fine dining restaurant.

I would say sticking to takeout is a wise choice for you given the information you believe above. 

Just clueless and quite frankly, massively disrespectful to those who work in the trade.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

other than pizza shop fare or maybe even Chinese, take out is terrible.  We were given a bonefish grille gift card by our elderly neighbors for taking care of their house while they were away for several weeks.  I had never been there, but it is fresh fish restaurant.  I couldn't believe the amount of people doing pickup.  I can't imagine anything worse than ordering fish for takeout.  There is no way that meal is anywhere near the quality of the meal that was severed to me in the restaurant.

my favorite wing place same thing.  I've been there when the order came out and drove 7 minutes to my house  the wings were meh at best because they continued to steam inside the Styrofoam. 

and as to how hard the staff works at restaurants, and even more so now because they are ALL short staffed,  It makes me Mr Desk Jocky look like jaba the hut.  Having worked in a restaurant for several years doing everything from bus boy to line cook and over night prep cook.  Those people are working about as hard as anyone doing manual labor.  Plus they have to deal with asshole humans, again even more so now.  If this is new to any of you, please remember that the next time you go out.

one last anecdote to the "now" situation.  My buddy met his dad at a sports bar this weekend while his kid was at a birthday party to watch some football.  it was 40 minutes from the time they entered until they were seated and then someone was able to take a drink order. The place was half ful. They were okay with it because the games were on.  The waitress apologized immensely and said " We are so short staffed we are taking turns cooking"     I hope that industry can find its mojo again, because right now its not a fun place to be...


----------



## boston_e (Sep 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> other than pizza shop fare or maybe even Chinese, take out is terrible.  We were given a bonefish grille gift card by our elderly neighbors for taking care of their house while they were away for several weeks.  I had never been there, but it is fresh fish restaurant.  I couldn't believe the amount of people doing pickup.  I can't imagine anything worse than ordering fish for takeout.  There is no way that meal is anywhere near the quality of the meal that was severed to me in the restaurant.
> 
> my favorite wing place same thing.  I've been there when the order came out and drove 7 minutes to my house  the wings were meh at best because they continued to steam inside the Styrofoam.
> 
> ...


One thing for sure - there is an art to the packaging of takeout as well.  Compare two takeout places in my town... one just puts fried items like wings / fish n chips / french fries in a closed styrofoam container and it gets kind of soggy as it continues to steam as you describe.  The other has some sort of containers with vents built into the top that allows steam to escape, and it isn't styrofoam either... maybe some sort of heavyish duty recycled material.. and they make a point not to stack two items like that on top of each other.  I'd say it arrives home 90% as good as when it was fresh onto a plate.

With that said, for sure some menu items work much better for takeout: pizza, sandwiches, some mexican items, wings (when packaged correctly), Chinese all come to mind.

I agree on the "now" situation, when we have gone out I've been making a point of being extra nice to the servers and tipping well.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

This opinion might be unpopular to restaurant owners, but honestly it has become an overheated and undervalued experience and serious contraction is probably needed for the long term health of the industry and it's workers / wages.  

Americans simply have developed unreasonable expectations for cheap and easy prepared food.  In 1955, 25 cents of every dollar spent on food was in restaurants.  In 2018 that number was 53.5 cents of every dollar.  Now there are a lot of factors that go into it.  Obviously the biggest one is more two income households today.  Families have less free time to cook.  But if dining out wasn't so cheap, they'd find the time.  

Dining out should be significantly more expensive than what it is.  There should be far fewer restaurants and those that work in the industry should be paid significantly better.  We are starting to see that today.  A bit of a reset.  It's painful for the owners losing their businesses due to lack of staffing, but the good ones will still thrive.  Survival of the fittest.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> This opinion might be unpopular to restaurant owners, but honestly it has become an overheated and undervalued experience and serious contraction is probably needed for the long term health of the industry and it's workers / wages.
> 
> Americans simply have developed unreasonable expectations for cheap and easy prepared food.  In 1955, 25 cents of every dollar spent on food was in restaurants.  In 2018 that number was 53.5 cents of every dollar.  Now there are a lot of factors that go into it.  Obviously the biggest one is more two income households today.  Families have less free time to cook.  But if dining out wasn't so cheap, they'd find the time.
> 
> Dining out should be significantly more expensive than what it is.  There should be far fewer restaurants and those that work in the industry should be paid significantly better.  We are starting to see that today.  A bit of a reset.  It's painful for the owners losing their businesses due to lack of staffing, but the good ones will still thrive.  Survival of the fittest.


I do get your point, but I'm not sure I agree that going out to eat is that cheap.  It is nothing for my family of 4 to run up a $150+ bill even at just a moderate burgers and nachos "sports pub" type of place.  My wife and I went on a "date night" to one of the nicer restaurants in town and our bill was pushing $300 for the two of us.  (And it isn't like we were having a lot of drinks in either example).

I don't mind paying a premium on occasion for quality food and service, but the primary reason we are going out less than we did pre-pandemic is we figured out how much money we actually save by eating in more.


----------



## jimk (Sep 21, 2021)

My wife and I are not avid restaurant people.  We haven't sat down to eat inside a restaurant since 14 March 2020.  We didn't do any take-out, not even pizza, for the first six months of the pandemic.  Instead, we hit the grocery stores hard.  

In 2021 we've done a lot of car travel around the Rockies and East Coast.  My wife's go-to food on car trips is Chick-fil-A.  I like Five Guys better, but Chick-fil-A is ok too.  I have eaten in Chick-fil-A's in probably ten states this year.  It's incredible how busy they all are!  I have to chuckle when we drive past a big strip of retail development somewhere.  The local Chick-fil-A will have enormous crowds and the Wendy's or all other nearby fast food joints are empty.  And the staffing at Chick-fil-A's is unbelievable too.  It's like they have 40 employees just in the parking lot doing drive-through orders or making deliveries with a fleet of delivery vehicles.  Chick-fil-A must be some kind of case study on how to adapt and flourish during a paradigm shift in a business operation??


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I do get your point, but I'm not sure I agree that going out to eat is that cheap.  It is nothing for my family of 4 to run up a $150+ bill even at just a moderate burgers and nachos "sports pub" type of place.  My wife and I went on a "date night" to one of the nicer restaurants in town and our bill was pushing $300 for the two of us.  (And it isn't like we were having a lot of drinks in either example).
> 
> I don't mind paying a premium on occasion for quality food and service, but the primary reason we are going out less than we did pre-pandemic is we figured out how much money we actually save by eating in more.



If it isn't cheap, then how are people affording to spend 53.5% of their food budget having someone else cook for them today vs only 25% of their budget in 1955?   Much of this I'm sure is driven by the proliferation of fast food over the past 60 years, but a lot of it is Americans are pretty spoiled today.   I know my family eats prepared food WAY more than what I experienced as a kid, and I'd say I'm in the same income bracket as what my folks were. 

Dining out whether it be at a nice sit down place or a fast food restaurant should be considered a treat and the workers who provide that experience should be provided a good wage.   The fact that the many restaurants of the country have been able to pay their staff poverty wages for so long is a problem.  The pandemic has shined a light on it and I think it's a good thing.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If it isn't cheap, then how are people affording to spend 53.5% of their food budget having someone else cook for them today vs only 25% of their budget in 1955?   Much of this I'm sure is driven by the proliferation of fast food over the past 60 years, but a lot of it is Americans are pretty spoiled today.   I know my family eats prepared food WAY more than what I experienced as a kid, and I'd say I'm in the same income bracket as what my folks were.
> 
> Dining out whether it be at a nice sit down place or a fast food restaurant should be considered a treat and the workers who provide that experience should be provided a good wage.   The fact that the many restaurants of the country have been able to pay their staff poverty wages for so long is a problem.  The pandemic has shined a light on it and I think it's a good thing.


Fully agree about workers and a good wage (and I've been an above average tipper for sure - especially since the pandemic).

I don't know about the statistics you cite.  Perhaps some of that is driven by takeout (even going to the local house of pizza runs $75ish for a family of 4) and the prepared food number you cite.

I just know that as it relates to my "sports pub" example, I can feed my family a similar meal at home for probably 20% of the cost.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

which is part of the reason they can't hire people back now.  

I agree in concept that it needs to get more expensive and should.  As you've also stated the heard will need to be thinned for that to happen.  Folks won't have the appetite to pay 30% or more for "pub" food especially if its marginal like a lot of the chain restaurants.  Will people change or will eating out be a major driver in inflation?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

i, for one, am glad to not be dining in a robot factory.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2021)

How to Make an Unloved Job More Attractive? Restaurants Tinker With Wages.
					

Long before the pandemic persuaded so many restaurant employees to abandon the business, Corrinna Stum chafed at the illogic of the pay. She started as a server at age 15, and quickly discovered how stressful it could be to earn only the federal minimum wage for tipped employees (now $2.13 an...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You clearly haven't worked at even an Applebee's, nevermind a fine dining restaurant.
> 
> I would say sticking to takeout is a wise choice for you given the information you believe above.
> 
> Just clueless and quite frankly, massively disrespectful to those who work in the trade.


You're your usual narrow minded, stuck in your own world self. 

Your "fine dining experience" better than someone who live in New York City? Yeah, right! LOL

Your experience of "being served" is what you're delusional of and confused with "dining". You show your "respect" by "tipping generously". Yes, I've already described your kind in the last part of my post which you didn't bother to finish reading before you post!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

lol. no. you are def the asshole in this one. don't eat out if you don't respect the hard work of the people cooking and serving the food and maintaining the space.\

a $10 buffet sounds like a good fit for you.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> the heard will need to be thinned for that to happen. Folks won't have the appetite to pay 30% or more for "pub" food especially if its marginal like a lot of the chain restaurants.


It's already happened. A good 20-30% of restaurants closed during the pandemic never reopened. Majority of those are typically the one that doesn't have a niche or weren't doing that great before the pandemic.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> some menu items work much better for takeout: pizza, sandwiches, some mexican items, wings (when packaged correctly), Chinese all come to mind.


All foods continue to cook when enclosed. The reason some type of food works better is largely because the restaurants figured out how to package them correctly. 

An example is one of the new-to-me restaurant I only started to patronize since the pandemic on the recommendation of my foodie friends. When I call to order, they gave me an option to choose how the food are package. Some are kept warm, some continue to cook, and some needs reheating. We've figured it out so they all come out just right when we eat it at home!

That said, there're some items they recommend against take out. They simply can't figure out how to package it. (think tempura, a typical Japanese dish). I've been eating in there a few times, before their wait time for tables started to get long again. 

Chinese and Mexican restaurants had long ago figured all these out. Other restaurants are now learning it too, I'm happy to report.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 21, 2021)

I've been to quite a few fine dining restaurants. And I've never had any time in one of them where I thought the staff could be replaced by robots or conveyor belts. To me the wait staff have always ADDED to the experience. Whether it be via recommendations, answering questions, or even just fun conversations, I'd never want that part of the experience removed.

Honestly even in casual local restaurants I wouldn't want the wait staff replaced. They add a personal touch which I enjoy. I could probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've actually had "bad" service in a restaurant. If someone is continually experiencing bad service, maybe they're going to the wrong places...(or have very strange expectations)


----------



## Hawk (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> All foods continue to cook when enclosed. The reason some type of food works better is largely because the restaurants figured out how to package them correctly.
> 
> An example is one of the new-to-me restaurant I only started to patronize since the pandemic on the recommendation of my foodie friends. When I call to order, they gave me an option to choose how the food are package. Some are kept warm, some continue to cook, and some needs reheating. We've figured it out so they all come out just right when we eat it at home!
> 
> ...


ABC, you are totaly a different bird than me.  Probably most that are in the +40 crowd.  I have to say that I think your view of resturaunt workers and the resturaunt trade will bring you at odds with anyone who ownes or has worked in those circles.  It is hard work and people generally suck to deal with.  No I will never see it your way but that is not to say you are wrong in your view to some.  I do think it is sad that a person can't enjoy fine dining in a resturaunt, in a great setting with friends and stangers.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I've been to quite a few fine dining restaurants. And I've never had any time in one of them where I thought the staff could be replaced by robots or conveyor belts. To me the wait staff have always ADDED to the experience. Whether it be via recommendations, answering questions, or even just fun conversations, I'd never want that part of the experience removed.
> 
> Honestly even in casual local restaurants I wouldn't want the wait staff replaced. They add a personal touch which I enjoy.


So you're "eating out" for the social experience on top of the food. That's your choice. But it isn't about the food any more. 

The only wait staff I felt adds significant value to the "dining experience" is the sommelier. But only those who actually knows both the wine and the food served. Some waiters does that with food alone. They're in my opinion serving the function of the sommelier, albeit without the wine.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I do think it is sad that a person can't enjoy fine dining in a resturaunt, in a great setting with friends and stangers.


I never said I don't enjoy it.

But it's a different purpose. It's not about eating out. It's about socializing in a restaurant, or a pub, or a concert. Or for that matter, on a ski slope.

People are confusing enjoying good food (very good food), with being waited on.

Like it or not, take out *can be* as good *if done right. *And it's likely here to stay for many more restaurants. I'm very happy for that.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> It's already happened. A good 20-30% of restaurants closed during the pandemic never reopened. *Majority of those are typically the one that doesn't have a niche or weren't doing that great before the pandemic.*


This is certainly an over generalization.  The resturaunts that closed in my town were all very good and very crowded before the pandemic.  2 closed because the lead chef or the owner died of covid.  A couple of others chose to close because the rent was high and it did not make sence to hang on with no end in site.  I know of at least one that just plain gave up becuase they would not operate under the conditions and requirements set forth by the local government.  All the crappy takeout places near me are still open serving the same run of the mill stuff.  Uninspired and unimaginative.  Blah!


----------



## Hawk (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> I never said I don't enjoy it.
> 
> But it's a different purpose. It's not about eating out. It's about socializing in a restaurant, or a pub, or a concert. Or for that matter, on a ski slope.
> 
> People are confusing enjoying good food (very good food), with being waited on.


No I'm not.  I say they entwined in a good resturaunt.  Good service and good back of the house enhances the meal.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> 2 closed because the lead chef or the owner died of covid.


Sad to hear that. 



> A couple of others chose to close because the rent was high and it did not make sence to hang on with no end in site.


That's unusual. Several of my favorite establishments (not just restaurants) owners all reported their landlord had offered to lower their rent to keep them there. After all, who else can the landlord rent it to? So it's entirely up to the business owner whether they see a business post pandemic or not. 

One owner decided to retire. But it was taken over by one of his worker instead of closing down.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> How to Make an Unloved Job More Attractive? Restaurants Tinker With Wages.
> 
> 
> Long before the pandemic persuaded so many restaurant employees to abandon the business, Corrinna Stum chafed at the illogic of the pay. She started as a server at age 15, and quickly discovered how stressful it could be to earn only the federal minimum wage for tipped employees (now $2.13 an...
> ...



Its hard to say whether the movement away from tipping will improve things.  You would have to have serious differences in hourly rates for wait staff.   When I went back to school a decade ago and took a server job to pay my bills, I averaged $35/hr.  Lesser experienced servers at the same restaurant would make half that as they didn't know how to sell wine and high end spirits.  They also couldn't handle the same volume of customers.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. no. you are def the asshole in this one. don't eat out if you don't respect the hard work of the people cooking and serving the food and maintaining the space.\
> 
> a $10 buffet sounds like a good fit for you.


I'm surprised, you live in Brooklyn, you should have plenty example of "non-service oriented" neighborhood restaurant that serve food that put the Vermont "fine dining" restaurants to shame!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

i live in brooklyn. i respect the hard work of the staff at my corner diner as much as I respect the hard work of the staff at peter luger or lilia. i respect the hard work of the staff at peter luger and lilia as much as I respect the hard work of the staff at hen of the wood or prohibition pig. because a restaurant is in NYC doesn't mean the staff is working any more or less hard than restaurants in Waterbury vermont.

your position on this issue is fucking trash. it takes money and effort and energy and work to prepare and serve customers their dinner. again, there are plenty of cheap buffets and fast food restaurants that seem like the right fit for you.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

Sadly, you can't tell the difference between working hard with working pointlessly.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> You're your usual narrow minded, stuck in your own world self.
> 
> Your "fine dining experience" better than someone who live in New York City? Yeah, right! LOL
> 
> Your experience of "being served" is what you're delusional of and confused with "dining". You show your "respect" by "tipping generously". Yes, I've already described your kind in the last part of my post which you didn't bother to finish reading before you post!



I worked in the business operationally for about 15 years and then sold high end meats and specialty foods to the highest rated restaurants in Boston and throughout New England for another 4.  I count a half dozen James Beard winning chefs as good friends.  Met and networked with many of their peers in Manhattan.  

I don't give a shit if you eat at La Bernardin five nights a week  and get take out the other two from 11 Madison Park you stuck up NYC snob. You're clearly f'n clueless about the industry and it shows massively with your posts here. 

Stay home.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2021)

abc said:


> Sadly, you can't tell the difference between working hard with working pointlessly.



so go eat at a fucking soulless automat. I'll continue supporting my local restaurants and the people who make them wonderful


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I would say sticking to takeout is a wise choice for you given the information you believe above.


I've said that in my post which you responded too. But thanks for reiterated it for highlight.

Your ideology, of providing employment for wait staff whether it's needed or not, won't be affected by people who order take out. And your proposal, of making eating out more expensive, isn't going to make more such employment opportunities. 

Moreover, you're not only reducing the opportunity of wait staff, your proposal will also eliminate many such employment for the kitchen staff too.


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> so go eat at a fucking soulless automat. I'll continue supporting my local restaurants and the people who make them wonderful


Don't forget to tell your waiter part of your tip is for their entertainment value.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> This opinion might be unpopular to restaurant owners, but honestly it has become an overheated and undervalued experience and serious contraction is probably needed for the long term health of the industry and it's workers / wages.
> 
> Americans simply have developed unreasonable expectations for cheap and easy prepared food.  In 1955, 25 cents of every dollar spent on food was in restaurants.  In 2018 that number was 53.5 cents of every dollar.  Now there are a lot of factors that go into it.  Obviously the biggest one is more two income households today.  Families have less free time to cook.  But if dining out wasn't so cheap, they'd find the time.
> 
> Dining out should be significantly more expensive than what it is.  There should be far fewer restaurants and those that work in the industry should be paid significantly better.  We are starting to see that today.  A bit of a reset.  It's painful for the owners losing their businesses due to lack of staffing, but the good ones will still thrive.  Survival of the fittest.



Well I beg to differ on prices.  Went to the seaport district in Boston.  Many restaurants there where prices are pretty high and the restaurants are all packed.  We were there on Saturday.  The shear number of people there was crazy.  Masks were required to enter buildings.  But a Beer garden put up by Cisco Brewing was very large and packed shoulder to shoulder and no one had a face mask on,  Once in the building tables are no longer socially distant and you can also sit at a bar shoulder to shoulder.  That is where the messaging is messed up.  Why only when walking in.  Does not make sense.

So one example a Shrimp Cocktail was $32 at Ocean Prime and in Milton about 20 minutes away at a nice restaurant it is $16

As far as dining out - there are many Applebee's, Long Horn's, Red Lobster's, etc that are mid priced and those are dishes that can be taken out but a 10-15 minute drive does not lend well.  And as always there are plenty of low priced fast food places that I am not a fan of.  We do not even go to the chain restaurant either.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

Let's pick tomorrow's topic to argue about in this thread by say 3 PM. That way we all have time to prepare properly


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Let's pick tomorrow's topic to argue about in this thread by say 3 PM. That way we all have time to prepare properly


Ill have anecdotal sources and ad hominem attacks ready


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So one example a Shrimp Cocktail was $32 at Ocean Prime and in Milton about 20 minutes away at a nice restaurant it is $16



There's nothing too trivial about that.  Ocean Prime's rent is likely triple what a restaurant in Milton pays.  They probably have to pay all their staff 25-50% more to entice them to work downtown where the commute is longer and more costly.   They also could be using a higher quality ingredient (fresh gulf vs frozen Asian farmed).   Lastly, the demand is likely higher so their clientele is willing to pay more.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Ill have anecdotal sources and ad hominem attacks ready


----------



## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> There's nothing too trivial about that. Ocean Prime's rent is likely triple what a restaurant in Milton pays. They probably have to pay all their staff 25-50% more to entice them to work downtown where the commute is longer and more costly.


Bingo!

Any patron's "fine dining" experience in downtown Boston includes the high rent and commute cost of its wait staff! That's got nothing to do with the "experience". 

The wait staff probably work similarly hard in both places. Take out takes all that out.  



> They also could be using a higher quality ingredient (fresh gulf vs frozen Asian farmed).


Which most likely taste better too. That I'm quite happy to pay extra for.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> There's nothing too trivial about that.  Ocean Prime's rent is likely triple what a restaurant in Milton pays.  They probably have to pay all their staff 25-50% more to entice them to work downtown where the commute is longer and more costly.   They also could be using a higher quality ingredient (fresh gulf vs frozen Asian farmed).   Lastly, the demand is likely higher so their clientele is willing to pay more.


Bingo!

It's just like how (and yes this isn't a fine dining option by any means) that McDonalds burger or Starbucks Coffee will cost you more when you buy them at an Interstate highway rest area location or an airport terminal location than it will at a free standing location in a less populated area.  The rent matters and certainly plays into a portion of the final price of the product


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Just clueless and quite frankly, massively disrespectful to those who work in the trade.



One problem with this discussion is that it has blended finer dining establishments with casual restaurants.

The notion that waiters are necessary is simply not true.  Japan, for example, has several restaurant models that have no wait staff as we know it.  Do you get the same service?  No.  But the people eating in these restaurants are willing to trade that for affordability.  And millions of people have decided that it's a fair trade.

The bottom line is that restaurant employees are paid what the market will bear.  You can wish all you want that they make more, but something has to give for that to happen - whether it be prices or more automation.  

Does an Applebees waiter work hard?  Yes.  But the simple truth is that it is a low-skill job and they are easily replaced.  The skill that you bring to your job has a huge impact on the wages that you earn.  I don't see socialization of the restaurant industry as a priority.

Also, if people are spending more of their food budget on dining out, how do you just assume that dining out is cheaper?  You can't infer that from the single data point.  

The trend I see is this:  When I was a kid there were tons of cheap coffee shop and diner style restaurants.  The food was simple - think a cup of soup and a tuna sandwich for lunch.  Those restaurants are largely gone - and have been replaced by Chipotle counter-service restaurants and low end fast casual restaurants.  

Now the non-chain locally owned restaurants tend to be more expensive than the coffee shops and diners of old.  As others have mentioned, a family of four can drop $150 easily on a very uninspiring meal.  The good news for wait staff is that the average check has gone up - and so has the average tip.  Tipping 15% on the pre-tax bill used to be the norm.  Tipping 20% was practically unheard of - let alone 25%.  So wait staff have a de facto raise over the years.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2021)

If so inclined, I'm sure I could find stats showing a great increase in not just dollars spent, but the frequency of prepared meals consumed today vs the past.  People simply are eating out more and expect it for cheap even though that results in wages barely above poverty for millions of workers.  

There certainly can be some automation at the lower tiers of food service.  I'm not against it entirely.  We see that in many industries, including law which I'm sure you know.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If so inclined, I'm sure I could find stats showing a great increase in not just dollars spent, but the frequency of prepared meals consumed today vs the past.  People simply are eating out more and expect it for cheap even though that results in wages barely above poverty for millions of workers.
> 
> There certainly can be some automation at the lower tiers of food service.  I'm not against it entirely.  We see that in many industries, including law which I'm sure you know.



I'd agree and wouldn't at all be surprised to see the stats back that up.

Anecdotally, I can certainly say it seems a lot of people I know nowadays do absolutely eat out (or get takeout) far more often than when I was a kid. When I was a kid, my mom always cooked and for the most part most of my friends' parents always cooked nearly every night as well. Going out to eat was a rare treat when I was a kid.


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## abc (Sep 21, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The notion that waiters are necessary is simply not true. Japan, for example, has several restaurant models that have no wait staff as we know it. Do you get the same service? No. But the people eating in these restaurants are willing to trade that for affordability. And millions of people have decided that it's a fair trade.


Careful, many on this thread would call you heartless, for taking the hard working waiter's job away! 



VTKilarney said:


> One problem with this discussion is that it has blended finer dining establishments with casual restaurants.


This is a ski forum. People are just pretending they know something others don't and toss out statement casually. 

You're quite right. There're a lot of different type of restaurants. Some where the waiter serves a significant added value. Many others, no more than a tray carrying robot.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2021)

jimk said:


> the staffing at Chick-fil-A's is unbelievable too.  It's like they have 40 employees just in the parking lot doing drive-through orders or making deliveries with a fleet of delivery vehicles.  Chick-fil-A must be some kind of case study on how to adapt and flourish during a paradigm shift in a business operation??



And they get unbelievably solid employees too, especially for a fast-food restaurant.  People who work hard, have work ethic, and actually care.  It's mind-boggling to me, they must have the best hiring practices on the planet.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Regarding JNJ, when I made that comment the additional data on mRNA vaccines wasnt out yet, but it is now & it looks solid.  I still think it likely having an adenovirus vaccine will broaden antibody estate, but that's just theoretical, and given 3rd shot data is now known, I dont see a reason to go with the unknown at this moment especially given we now know mRNA vaccines achieve better results.  Though *that's a bit unfair in that we dont know what the results would be if people took 2 JNJ doses like the PFE & MRNA regimens*, but alas we can only know what we know, and it's difficult to compare across vaccines, but suffice it to say we definitively know that 2 doses of either PFE or MRNA are better than 1 dose JNJ.



Well what do you know, 2 dose JNJ data just came out today for the first time, and as it turns out the results are great!  So all 3 vaccines (MRNA, PFE, and JNJ) are fantastic as a 2 dose regimen.









						Johnson & Johnson Announces Real-World Evidence and Phase 3 Data Confirming Strong and Long-Lasting Protection of Single-Shot COVID-19 Vaccine in the U.S. | Johnson & Johnson
					

Additional data show a booster increases protection 94 percent protection in the U.S. with booster given at two monthsFour-fold increase in antibodies when given at two months 12-fold increase in antibodies when booster given at six months




					www.jnj.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

As for the restaurant debate, I suppose I'm a bit more nuanced, I come down on the side of Kusty & DHS in terms of believing it's hard work laboring at a restaurant & that those people should be treated with dignity & respect, but I come down on the side of VTKilarney & ABC in terms of the raw economics involved.

    Raising food prices will ultimately decrease demand, which is a slow-burn to losing jobs, and if you really want to cost people their fast food jobs, just look to the $15 minimum wage states which are making automation wonderfully affordable (for the robot, software, and tablet manufacturers).  As someone who usually favors the economically best solution, I favor 3 low-skilled workers making $10 an hour rather than 2 low-skilled workers making $15 an hour and 1 struggling with unemployment handouts & depression.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And they get unbelievably solid employees too, especially for a fast-food restaurant.  People who work hard, have work ethic, and actually care.  It's mind-boggling to me, they must have the best hiring practices on the planet.


Its strange and completely opposite of say McDonalds where the employees are usually miserable and would rather be dead (pre-pandemic that is).   I wonder if it has something to do with not being over worked and burnt out.  There were always tons of people working inside of Chic-Fil-A. Needed a refill, no problem what did you have sir.  People bringing your food to you happily, that didn't make it or receive a tip.   Maybe its a cult.  Based on the drive through before the pandemic and certainly now, makes you wonder.   The Jesus chicken has had that effect on me, but maybe I'm immune to it


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> As someone who usually favors the economically best solution, I favor 3 low-skilled workers making $10 an hour rather than 2 low-skilled workers making $15 an hour and 1 struggling with unemployment handouts & depression.



The problem is that it's really not like that.  It's more like 3 people making $10 an hour with ALL of them requiring some sort of government subsidy vs 2 people making $15 an hour without needing any subsidy and 1 struggling with unemployment handouts.  

I'm not saying that $15/hr is the magic number.  It obviously varies greatly by location and I am just using the numbers you provided. But the point remains that because dining out is so inexpensive, some food service businesses only have the margins available to pay people at a rate that still requires taxpayer assistance in meeting those low wage earners needs.  The businesses therefore aren't really sustaining themselves completely via their own economic activity.  Why is that allowed to happen?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The problem is that it's really not like that.  It's more like 3 people making $10 an hour with ALL of them requiring some sort of government subsidy vs 2 people making $15 an hour without needing any subsidy and 1 struggling with unemployment handouts.


So it still probably equals the same for a tax payer. 1 getting the same from the government as 3 getting less from the government.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So it still probably equals the same for a tax payer. 1 getting the same from the government as 3 getting less from the government.



Well except there is a finite limit for the 1 unemployed person.  They have 6 months on average for those benefits before they run out.  In the other scenario, all 3 people continue to receive their subsidies as long as they keep those low wage jobs.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The problem is that it's really not like that. It's more like 3 people making $10 an hour with ALL of them requiring some sort of government subsidy vs 2 people making $15 an hour without needing any subsidy and 1 struggling with unemployment handouts.



In a perfect world, unskilled labor would get their start in a job like this and then advance in the career.  That said, the federal minimum wage is overdue for an increase.  But I bet that there aren't nearly as many non-school attending adults working for the federal minimum wage than we think.  The aren't many states left that set their minimum wage to the feds (I'm looking at you, New Hampshire).

If we eliminate lower paying jobs, there will be a tremendous barrier for unskilled workers to enter the workforce - and it won't be the middle class and rich who will bear the brunt of that.

I absolutely agree that low paid workers should be respected.  I tip very generously for that reason.  But we can't uproot simple economics - not without some serious collateral consequences.


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## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> In a perfect world, unskilled labor would get their start in a job like this and then advance in the career.


That's not a perfect world. 

In that world, you'll need a constant stream of unskilled "youth" to fill those unskilled jobs and leaves in short order. Ask any restaurant owners who like that idea. 

The perfect world would be unskilled labor get started on jobs that train them to be skilled labor. And skilled labor will be paid according to what the market would bear. That world doesn't exist. 

Instead, we have adults working their entire life on unskilled labor work that never got anywhere, or until the work got displaced by machines. They bought into this falsehood of "working hard" is good enough to have a prospers economic outcome. 

In the meantime, almost all skilled jobs are facing labor shortages. Never mind nurses and software engineers. We don't have enough plumbers and truck drivers.


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## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

abc said:


> That's not a perfect world.
> 
> In that world, you'll need a constant stream of unskilled "youth" to fill those unskilled jobs and leaves in short order. Ask any restaurant owners who like that idea.
> 
> ...



Personally I think the bigger issue is that many people still go by the notion that was relevant say prior to 2000 (just as a semi arbitrary date) that most people will be work for the same company for their entire 40 or so year career, and advance within the company over time. So they never felt that they had to expand their knowledge base outisde of what their job was, and as such when automation and/or job outsourcing to other states/countries happened, you ended up with a significant amount of people who never really had the mindset more than skills, to make a change in their careers to adapt to the current labor needs, and as such had to "downsize" their career choices from what they wanted to do, to what's available and often that came with a decrease in pay, which then puts a strain on the employer situation with the demand to pay more than their overheads may be able to tolerate, and still sell their products at a competitive price.

There's plenty of factors that play into this for sure, and it's not just the media narrative that often gets pushed that the minimum wage needs to be increased to be a living wage


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And they get unbelievably solid employees too, especially for a fast-food restaurant.  People who work hard, have work ethic, and actually care.  It's mind-boggling to me, they must have the best hiring practices on the planet.



i'm a heathen athiest jew, but i think this comes down to religiosity. chik-fil-a is super christian, and while they can't explicitly only hire christians, i think religion and religious values do come heavily into play. it gets them some hard working sober folks. it also gets them a pretty shitty record on gay stuff.

quick google to support the anecdotal thing I've heard from time to time:




this graphic and an accompanying short story also appeared today in an email newsletter i receive called the hustle. chik-fil-a takes significantly longer to process a drive thru order but that extra time is for customer care, fresher food, and more accurate orders.


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## trackbiker (Sep 22, 2021)

It takes over 9 minutes to get a drive-thru order at Chic-Fil-A?! No wonder their drive-thru always looks busy. They only get 6 cars through in an hour.


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2021)

trackbiker said:


> It takes over 9 minutes to get a drive-thru order at Chic-Fil-A?! No wonder their drive-thru always looks busy. They only get 6 cars through in an hour.



I've never eaten at Chic-fil-a in my life, but I would imagine they work on more than 1 order at a time. 6 cars through in an hour would mean they only allow 1 car to enter the drive-thru at a time. Meanwhile in reality, the clock for car 2 has started before car 1 exits. And the clock for car 3 has started before both car 1 and car 2 exits...etc


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## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

trackbiker said:


> It takes over 9 minutes to get a drive-thru order at Chic-Fil-A?! No wonder their drive-thru always looks busy. They only get 6 cars through in an hour.



I have to wonder if some of that extra time is simply due to the fact that almost anytime I go through the drive thru at a Chick Fil-A that there are typically subtantially more cars infront of me in line, than at any other drive thru I go through???


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> I bet that there aren't nearly as many non-school attending adults working for the federal minimum wage than we think.



There arent.  I posted the raw BLS data here before on this the last time this subject came up.

This is one of the canards of the "minimum wage" debate.  You have politicians trying to make it appear that everyone making minimum wage is a struggling single mother with 3 kids, when in reality the vast majority of people making minimum wage are students (high school or college), recently out-of-school, young people in a first job who will gain skills to move up the ladder, and transients who recently lost a job.

Net/net, most people (over 80% I'd guess) would be shocked just how few "full time forever" minimum wage earners there actually are.  The reason people dont know this?  Once again, your govenment's been lying to you.


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## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

Are their chicken really that good? 

I do fast food drive through because it's fast! So a long line of cars or long wait time from ordering to driving away will turn me away. 

Heck, I can get out of my car and walk into many other sandwich places and get my order done in less than 10 minutes.


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## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> when in reality the vast majority of people making minimum wage are students (high school or college), recently out-of-school, young people in a first job who will gain skills to move up the ladder, and transients who recently lost a job.


Just looking at the age of the workers in many restaurants doesn't support that at all. They're not all young people. Not even close.

Unless there're A LOT of "transients who recently lost a job". Or they've lost their job as recent as 5 year ago...


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *chik-fil-a takes significantly longer to process a drive thru order* but that extra time is for customer care, fresher food, and more accurate orders.



Sure as hell not in my life experience.  I find them to be ruthlessly efficient.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

abc said:


> *Just looking at the age of the workers in many restaurants doesn't support that at all. *They're not all young people. Not even close.



You're seriously going to tell me you dont think the median worker in a Burger King, Chick-Fil-A, McDonalds, Wendys, Taco Bell, etc... tends to skew quite young?  Really?


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 22, 2021)

No surprise mj is better for sure lol









						Americans are using alcohol to cope with pandemic stress: Nearly 1 in 5 report 'heavy drinking'
					

More than 18 months into the pandemic, about 17% of respondents reported "heavy drinking" in the past 30 days, a new survey finds.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're seriously going to tell me you dont think the median worker in a Burger King, Chick-Fil-A, McDonalds, Wendys, Taco Bell, etc... tends to skew quite young?  Really?


"Median age" means nothing. There maybe 5 young kids there. But I'm frequently seeing middle age people working in restaurants! Cleaning tables and taking out the trash etc... Yes, they do strike me as single Moms with 3 kids!


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## VTKilarney (Sep 22, 2021)

abc said:


> But I'm frequently seeing middle age people working in restaurants! Cleaning tables and taking out the trash etc... Yes, they do strike me as single Moms with 3 kids!



Keep in mind that in fast food restaurants the managers are supposed to pitch in and help with those things.  And the managers are not making minimum wage.


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## mbedle (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sure as hell not in my life experience.  I find them to be ruthlessly efficient.


I agree - quick google search and a 2018 study has their average drive-through time at 260.85 seconds.


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## jimk (Sep 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I've never eaten at Chic-fil-a in my life, but I would imagine they work on more than 1 order at a time. 6 cars through in an hour would mean they only allow 1 car to enter the drive-thru at a time. Meanwhile in reality, the clock for car 2 has started before car 1 exits. And the clock for car 3 has started before both car 1 and car 2 exits...etc


Chick-fil-A's must not be quite so ubiquitous in the Northeast?  
Many that I've gone to this year in the mid-A, deep south, mid-West, and Rockies have multiple lanes for drive thru, that is, there are two, sometimes four lanes of cars feeding into the drive-thru.  Each lane has 2-4 employees taking orders.  And you are right, they often take orders simultaneously from multiple vehicles in a single lane. It goes surprisingly quick even with some along interstate highways where I've seen as many as 50 cars waiting in line.   
Many still don't allow customers inside their building, but they compensate with a super robust/efficient drive-thru process.  I went to one in the state of Maryland two days ago that had no drive-thru. My wife and I both remarked how calm it looked compared to most Chick-fil-As, but when I went inside to place an order it was mobbed.


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## Smellytele (Sep 22, 2021)

There are 2 chick-fil-a's in NH. Both in the same city -Nashua
And VT has none


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## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2021)

None in Maine either


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## jimk (Sep 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> None in Maine either


That's interesting to know.  Construction of Chick-fil-A franchises has exploded throughout much of the rest of the USA.  It's one of those strange situations where much of the restaurant biz got hurt by the pandemic, but they boomed.


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## Smellytele (Sep 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> That's interesting to know.  Construction of Chick-fil-A franchises has exploded throughout much of the rest of the USA.  It's one of those strange situations where much of the restaurant biz got hurt by the pandemic, but they boomed.


RI only has 2 as well. Mass (17) and CT (12) have a good amount.

Actually NH now has 3 new one in Salem.


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> Chick-fil-A's must not be quite so ubiquitous in the Northeast?
> Many that I've gone to this year in the mid-A, deep south, mid-West, and Rockies have multiple lanes for drive thru, that is, there are two, sometimes four lanes of cars feeding into the drive-thru.  Each lane has 2-4 employees taking orders.  And you are right, they often take orders simultaneously from multiple vehicles in a single lane. It goes surprisingly quick even with some along interstate highways where I've seen as many as 50 cars waiting in line.
> Many still don't allow customers inside their building, but they compensate with a super robust/efficient drive-thru process.  I went to one in the state of Maryland two days ago that had no drive-thru. My wife and I both remarked how calm it looked compared to most Chick-fil-As, but when I went inside to place an order it was mobbed.



There's probably about 2 dozen now in NJ including about 6 within 10 miles of where I live. I just rarely eat fast food in general and never saw a reason to go there...


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## skiur (Sep 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> None in Maine either


There is a chick FIL a in Bangor and Westport.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2021)

Weird. I looked at a location map and didn't see any.  Must not have been up to date.


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## jimk (Sep 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There's probably about 2 dozen now in NJ including about 6 within 10 miles of where I live. I just rarely eat fast food in general and never saw a reason to go there...


Good for you.  I probably use fast food more now that I'm retired and driving around a lot during the daytime, including traveling a lot.  Used to brown bag my lunch daily for 40 years of office work.


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> Good for you.  I probably use fast food more now that I'm retired and driving around a lot during the daytime, including traveling a lot.  Used to brown bag my lunch daily for 40 years of office work.


For a while now I've tried to avoid the big chains in general whether it is fast food or casual dining. I'd rather go to an independent restaurant, cafe, pizzeria, deli, etc if I want food out. When I was still going to the office I would eat in our cafeteria most days. Usually I would grab a salad, sandwich, or maybe something from the grill if they had an interesting special. For the most part they actually had pretty decent food in our cafeteria, so there was no need to go out much at work. I never did the brown bag thing though. That requires too much planning or extra time in the morning. I'm more of a get up at the last possible minute, get dressed, grab a glass of orange juice and leave type of person.


----------



## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I never did the brown bag thing though. That requires too much planning or extra time in the morning. I'm more of a get up at the last possible minute, get dressed, grab a glass of orange juice and leave type of person.


I'm the same in the morning. I eat my breakfast on the go. So never mind making lunch. 

I often make extra food at dinner and pack it up for next day's lunch. Other people reported they make their whole week's food on weekends so they don't have to spend time after work to make dinner. 

If I had to make lunch in the morning, I won't. I'll just eat out. Some days, I had no extra from dinner, or it's the kind of dish that doesn't reheat well, I eat out again.

I don't patronize chain restaurants for sit down meal. But for fast food, I'm the opposite. I prefer the tried and true chains.


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## Edd (Sep 22, 2021)

I’d love to see In and Out or Shake Shack up here. Never tried SS. I spent a few days in Chicago a few years ago and was determined to hit it but the line in the street was never less than 30 deep.


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## Smellytele (Sep 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d love to see In and Out or Shake Shack up here. Never tried SS. I spent a few days in Chicago a few years ago and was determined to hit it but the line in the street was never less than 30 deep.


No in and out’s east of the Mississippi


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## skiur (Sep 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Weird. I looked at a location map and didn't see any.  Must not have been up to date.



Actually just had a similar conversation of what states chick FIL a is in recently and looked it up, only reason I knew that.


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## Dickc (Sep 22, 2021)

I'll have to try Chick-fil-a.  There is one in the North Shore Mall right in my city, maybe three miles from me.  I've never eaten at one.


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## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d love to see In and Out or Shake Shack up here. Never tried SS. I spent a few days in Chicago a few years ago and was determined to hit it but the line in the street was never less than 30 deep.


Shake Shack is not fast at all, even when there's no line. (and it's rare there's no line)


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## Edd (Sep 22, 2021)

skiur said:


> There is a chick FIL a in Bangor and Westport.


Westport? Having trouble finding this and I know Maine pretty well. There’s a Westport Island but only seeing the Bangor location.


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## boston_e (Sep 22, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I'll have to try Chick-fil-a.  There is one in the North Shore Mall right in my city, maybe three miles from me.  I've never eaten at one.



Don't get overly excited.  It sounds like I may be in the minority on this thread but I'd put Chick-Fil-A in the perfectly average "meh" category.  It is fine if you have to grab something quick on the go and definitely a half step or step above some of the other common fast food chains.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d love to see In and Out or Shake Shack up here. Never tried SS. I spent a few days in Chicago a few years ago and was determined to hit it but the line in the street was never less than 30 deep.


I did try Shake Shack maybe ~5ish years ago. I was underwhelmed and couldn't understand the hype for that one...


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## jimk (Sep 22, 2021)

Chick-fil-A is pretty good, but I'm not a huge fan of Chick-fil-A.  My wife is.  I will say that their chicken sandwiches usually feature a nice size chunk of chicken breast.  It's kind of expensive, but so is my favorite Five Guys.  My tombstone is going to read cause of death - Five Guys fries
I've tried In-Out Burger about three times and not impressed.  Memorably, went to one in Las Vegas couple years ago and it was terrible, cold burger, stale bread.  Tasted like sitting out for a while.  Fries not good either.  Maybe I caught it on a bad day??  Think I went to a Shake Shack once in Cumberland, MD after skiing at Wisp ski area.  Can't remember anything about it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2021)

shake shack is a pretty decent burger as far as fast food burgers go. i prefer it to like mcdonalds and burger king, but i dont prefer it compared to a typical pub burger or independent smash burger place like blue collar in williamsburg.

it definitely does not take very long to get in and out of a shake shack anymore tho. that was years ago that it was like that - when they were just in madison square park and then a few limited locations. theres so many of them now in nyc and elsewhere. it may be busy and take a while at lunch time or peak weekend times, but i have two shake shacks within a 10 minute walk of my apartment and i can walk into either right now at 8:15 on a wednesday night and order and be on my way just about instantly.


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## ThatGuy (Sep 22, 2021)

Culvers is my favorite fast food burger.
Chic-fil-a is decent but kind of overrated, I usually get the grilled nuggets there. Over the summer on my way to Montana I saw one with a line that had to be half a mile long. Me and my girlfriend just went inside and had our food in under 5 mins.


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## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

Shake Shack is a perfect example of the KIND of take out I'm talking about. Not fast food but decent food without the fuss! (not particularly fast anyway)

Burgers is by nature not a "fine dining" food. But as an illustration of the range of quality, burger can be mouth-watering good, or like chewing rubber! 

There's a rather good "burger restaurant" in the village I live. Their burger is good. But it just doesn't really make much sense to sit down and be served... a burger! I do sometimes when I have people visiting, because the food is good. But yeah, that's the kind of restaurant I feel strongly a robot will do no worse than a waiter! When I feel like a really nice burger but just by myself? I order it for take out!

Shake Shack's burger is pretty close in quality to this burger restaurant near me. If there're both of them here, I'd happily alternate between them. Take out.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 22, 2021)

Never been to a shake shack.  Only been to In n Out a handful of times but usually tasty experiences.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> shake shack is a pretty decent burger as far as fast food burgers go. i prefer it to like mcdonalds and burger king, but i dont prefer it compared to a typical pub burger or independent smash burger place like blue collar in williamsburg.



Maybe that's my problem with them...it may be a higher end fast food burger, but it still reminds me of a fast food burger. When I want a burger, I want a GOOD burger. The way some people talk them up, I was expecting something closer to a pub burger, not just an above-average fast food burger.


----------



## Edd (Sep 22, 2021)

What’s pretty good is Lexie’s, with 3 NH locations and one in Newburyport, MA. Burgers, fries, and onion rings are great, IMO.









						Lexie's Restaurants
					

Lexie's restaurant locations serve specialty burgers made from locally sourced ingredients, mocktails & craft beer in relaxed and cool setting.




					www.peaceloveburgers.com


----------



## boston_e (Sep 22, 2021)

By far the best “fast food” burger I’ve ever had is at Lexi’s - small “chain” with just a few locations around coastal New Hampshire.  Not exactly fast food since you do sit down and order…. But not a “pub” burger style either.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> What’s pretty good is Lexie’s, with 3 NH locations and one in Newburyport, MA. Burgers, fries, and onion rings are great, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funny I was posting the exact same thing just as you were!  Lexi’s is great.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 22, 2021)

abc said:


> Shake Shack is a perfect example of the KIND of take out I'm talking about. Not fast food but decent food without the fuss! (not particularly fast anyway)
> 
> Burgers is by nature not a "fine dining" food. But as an illustration of the range of quality, burger can be mouth-watering good, or like chewing rubber!
> 
> ...


To each their own but i cook fairly nice food for a living and when I'm not working a burger and a pint is often the kind of thing I'm looking for. Or fried clams.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d love to see In and Out or *Shake Shack up here. Never tried SS.*



My vote getter for "most overrated fast food" restaurant.  It was cool as an occasional treat when there were only a few of them in the city, decent, but nothing earthshattering.  Now that there's a zillion of them all over America I'm like WTH?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2021)

jimk said:


> *I've tried In-Out Burger about three times and not impressed.  *Memorably, went to one in Las Vegas couple years ago and it was terrible, cold burger, stale bread.  Tasted like sitting out for a while.  Fries not good either.  Maybe I caught it on a bad day??



My 2nd place recipient for, "Most overrated fast food" restaurant.  The burgers are pretty good, but like Shake Shack the fries taste like grocery store freezer aisle.  And the menu is so limited.  Net/net, a very good burger, but I just dont understand the cult fascination.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> My 2nd place recipient for, "Most overrated fast food" restaurant.  The burgers are pretty good, but like Shake Shack the fries taste like grocery store freezer aisle.  And the menu is so limited.  Net/net, a very good burger, but I just dont understand the cult fascination.


Not my favorite fries but it helps if you order them extra crispy. The burger to price ratio is unmatched IMO. They dont try to be everything to everyone and it allows them to focus on just making a good fresh burger. They also were the early adopters of paying staff a decent wage (for Fast Food anyhow).


----------



## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

My family preferences with a skiing tie in.

When my kids have Highschool ski races/training sessions at Mount Southington in CT.

On our way home, and I am the assistant coach so I am there every session, we have a Chick Fil-A about 5 minutes away on the way home in Southington, and a Shake Shack about 10 minutes away on the way home in Farmington (both are maybe a 1/2 mile off I-84 which we take to get home). We're roughly 2/3rds Chick Fil-A and 1/3rd Shake Shack in my family.

To me, the entrees at Chick Fil-A are better, but Shake Shack has better fries!


----------



## abc (Sep 22, 2021)

I do think the cult following of Shake Shack (and I suspect the same with Chick-a-FilA) is over the top and unworthy.

But, it's a good burger joint. And that's about it. I wouldn't go out of my way for it.

It's not the fault of Shake Shack for their "fame". People just have a tendency to overhype things. Restaurants are no exceptions. I've visited many of such overhyped places in my life. A decent, but nothing special Japanese restaurant in the village everyone rave about turned out to be just... a decent one! You get my drift... Almost all of them are good in their own right. Few live up to "the fame" though. And some of them, I felt disappointed because of too much expectation.

That said, I think SS is exactly what I like to see more of (minus the hype). I don't think of it as a "fast food". Partly because it isn't exactly fast. It's a casual joint that most just take out, but it's not cheaply done, nor cheap. It's decent food, without the fuss. Reasonably price for the quality, not pretense.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 23, 2021)

I can’t stand the trend of non-franchise restaurants to sell burgers that even Godzilla can’t get his mouth around.  I want to be able to take a reasonable bite and taste everything.

And am I the only one who thinks that B.Good is “meh”?


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

I like B.Good's salads.   Never had one of their burgers or their fries.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 23, 2021)

The Bench at Stowe is great..never had a bad thing there. Harrisons is the best place I've been to in town if you can get in. Always booked..So crowded no one goes there....


----------



## thebigo (Sep 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> Westport? Having trouble finding this and I know Maine pretty well. There’s a Westport Island but only seeing the Bangor location.


They meant Westbrook, the massive new development at the old quarry along 95.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 23, 2021)

abc said:


> When I feel like a really nice burger but just by myself? I ...



Throw one on the grill.

I'm surprised Worthy Burger hasn't been mentioned.  Grass fed beef broiled over a hardwood fire with VT's best beer on tap.  Truly worthy.  And now it's a "chain."


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## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

mister moose said:


> Throw one on the grill.


Not unless you have the burger in the frig in the first place.

No, frozen pack of ground beef in the freezer doesn't qualify


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

The idea that burger meat needs to be fresh to be great is totally false.   I always have a container of frozen beef scrap in my freezer.  Typically trimmings from larger braising cuts or whole primals.    Use the grinder attachment with my KitchenAid stand mixer, hand pack, season properly and it's better than patties bought at a nice butcher counter.  

Same goes for chicken and pork.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The idea that burger meat needs to be fresh to be great is totally false.   I always have a container of frozen beef scrap in my freezer.  Typically trimmings from larger braising cuts or whole primals.    Use the grinder attachment with my KitchenAid stand mixer, hand pack, season properly and it's better than patties bought at a nice butcher counter.
> 
> Same goes for chicken and pork.



Completely agree. I've grilled home-made burgers from "fresh" ground beef as well as frozen and it really makes no difference as long as you're using a good quality beef to begin with and properly seasoning it.


----------



## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

It's not about "fresh". 

It's about it not being frozen, at the moment when you got home after a long day...


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

abc said:


> It's not about "fresh".
> 
> It's about it not being frozen, at the moment when you got home after a long day...



You could go through the arduous process of taking it out of the freezer the night before


----------



## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You could go through the arduous process of taking it out of the freezer the night before


But not if you didn't go through the 2 second to take it out the night before... == empty bun on the grill


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 23, 2021)

You can easily microwave it a little to defrost then cook on the grill (if the meat is already ground). Not really the most difficult process ever. Or better yet make the meat into burgers freeze it then defrost when you want one.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 23, 2021)

Worthy Burger is pretty good.  The burgers are very tasty and I like visiting Shawn and chatting.  I miss him at the castelrock.  You see, there another example of how the service benefits the food.  LOL 
Anyway,   The right store bought beef can be good.  Organic does not make any difference at all as far as taste.  The key to having great burgers is to have the beef fresh not frozen, the right fat content and DO NOT crush the shit out of it with the spatula and push all the juices out of it and compact it.  The less you touch it the better is will taste.  No kidding.  That is the secret that most chefs will not tall you.  some places fresh ground the beef on site and form the burgers right out of the grinder and onto the cooking surface.  Also kosher salt it better that sea salt and use fresh groud pepper.  I put a little olive oil on the surface to sear the outside and get a better crisp. As you can tell burgers have been my thing for a while now.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The idea that burger meat needs to be fresh to be great is totally false.   I always have a container of frozen beef scrap in my freezer.  Typically trimmings from larger braising cuts or whole primals.    Use the grinder attachment with my KitchenAid stand mixer, hand pack, season properly and it's better than patties bought at a nice butcher counter.
> 
> Same goes for chicken and pork.


Totally disagree.  Sorry this is not true my friend.  See above.  But if you like it that way then you saved yourself some fuss.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 23, 2021)

Talk about Hijacking...  3 pages later...

 Someone should start a Best Burger thread


----------



## Hawk (Sep 23, 2021)

I know.  Sorry


----------



## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Talk about Hijacking...  3 pages later...
> 
> Someone should start a Best Burger thread


In better managed forums, the moderator would move the posts to become its own thread. 

But here, the moderators are too busy contributing to the drift. 

That's why we have but only a handful of active threads for the past 6 months.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Totally disagree.  Sorry this is not true my friend.  See above.  But if you like it that way then you saved yourself some fuss.



Ok.  I guess you are the authority on quality burgers

/Thread


----------



## boston_e (Sep 23, 2021)

abc said:


> That's why we have but only a handful of active threads for the past 6 months.


Or because it isn't ski season and there is nothing else to talk about..........


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

we were supposed to go to nashville for my girlfriend's nephews wedding this weekend but she tested positive on Tuesday and feels like death. i tested negative antigen tuesday and negative PCR yesterday, so at this point I'm mostly relieved my techno and jamband shenanigans didn't ruin my girlfriend's first time to see her family since thanksgiving 2019. she attributes her infection to a busy day running around manhattan on public transit last Wednesday doing a bunch of female things in preparation for the wedding. kinda hard for us to isolate in a ~600 sq foot apartment with 2 main rooms, but I'm sticking to the living room and couch and my desk and shes sticking to our bedroom. our bathroom is in our bedroom, so not super ideal. i floated going to a hotel but she didn't want to be alone and I also need to take care of the cat and generally hold down the fort. got another pcr scheduled for tmrw mainly bc I am just curious about my own personal immunity living in close proximity with a breakthru

I bought a new suit to fit my post quarantine frame for this weekend. i now intend to never wear the damn thing as I've kicked into pre ski season exercise and diet conscientiousness. cant return the damn thing bc i had the pants hemmed. i guess I can have the waist taken in when I'm back to my proper physique


----------



## boston_e (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> we were supposed to go to nashville for my girlfriend's nephews wedding this weekend but she tested positive on Tuesday and feels like death. i tested negative antigen tuesday and negative PCR yesterday, so at this point I'm mostly relieved my techno and jamband shenanigans didn't ruin my girlfriend's first time to see her family since thanksgiving 2019. she attributes her infection to a busy day running around manhattan on public transit last Wednesday doing a bunch of female things in preparation for the wedding. kinda hard for us to isolate in a ~600 sq foot apartment with 2 main rooms, but I'm sticking to the living room and couch and my desk and shes sticking to our bedroom. our bathroom is in our bedroom, so not super ideal. i floated going to a hotel but she didn't want to be alone and I also need to take care of the cat and generally hold down the fort. got another pcr scheduled for tmrw mainly bc I am just curious about my own personal immunity living in close proximity with a breakthru
> 
> I bought a new suit to fit my post quarantine frame for this weekend. i now intend to never wear the damn thing as I've kicked into pre ski season exercise and diet conscientiousness. cant return the damn thing bc i had the pants hemmed. i guess I can have the waist taken in when I'm back to my proper physique


Sorry to hear.  Hopefully she feels better soon and glad to hear that so far you seem to be protected.


----------



## jimk (Sep 23, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Sorry to hear.  Hopefully she feels better soon and glad to hear that so far you seem to be protected.


Ditto.  Hope the lady is feeling better real soon!  Breakthru trend is scary and if it continues is going to wreak havoc with next ski season.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

thanks. she's a bit of a pussy weakling.

in march 2020 she got deathly ill and we were sure she was early NYC covid before we were able to get tested. down on her ass for a weak. fever. deep cough. chills. aches. during that period I had a persistent weeklong headache, that's it. we got antibody tests about 8 weeks later that revealed nada. we still think we had early covid.

when we got vaccinated (pfizer), dose 2 murdered her. she was basically the exorcist girl for 24 hours. vomiting repeatedly plus all the chills, fevers, aches, etc. i had a headache for 3 days.

now, she's basically how she was after her vax, minus the vomiting thankfully. i had a headache yesterday but so far no covid and I feel totally fine and normal today.

quarantining except for walks/jogs in the neighborhood, not going inside any businesses. will drive to the testing center in queens tomorrow. the NYC DOH has 4 hour turnaround PCR tests, but I will admit the location I went to yesterday in fort green was ratchet as fuck, and the one tomorrow in corona will probably be even more ratchet as fuck. the urgent cares take longer to get results and also charge you money.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

That stinks.  Hopefully you stay Covid free and the gf mends quickly.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i floated going to a hotel but she didn't want to be alone *and I also need to take care of the cat*



You lost some serious street cred there.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 23, 2021)

Fill the Cat's bowls, and get the F out of there.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 23, 2021)

Vibes KK...  



jimk said:


> Breakthru trend is scary and if it continues is going to wreak havoc with next ski season.


I don't think so.  We have to start moving on and living with this thing.  If it means we have to limit lift riding or wearing masks in gondolas ( I will be doing that for sure, if not avoiding them all together)  then so be it.   Outside activities should be able to keep happening as is.  Now Apres' and inside dining, well there might need to be precautions there.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> You lost some serious street cred there.



always been a dog guy but never had my own. Just family dogs as kids and roommates dogs as a young adult. Having a dog wouldn’t let me ski the way I do. We babysat our friends cat at the beginning of covid and one month turned to them being gone for six months which turned to us asking to just adopt him after getting attached. unplanned cat ownership.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 23, 2021)

Glad to hear that you are okay.  And wishing a speedy recovery for your girlfriend.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 23, 2021)

Glad you're ok and hope it stays that way. Also hope your gf recovers quickly. I hate hearing about these breakthroughs that are bad cases. Too many people try to play it off that breakthroughs are "minor and no big deal".  I don't know that we have any real stats to say how many are minor vs serious.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Glad you're ok and hope it stays that way. Also hope your gf recovers quickly. I hate hearing about these breakthroughs that are bad cases. Too many people try to play it off that breakthroughs are "minor and no big deal".  I don't know that we have any real stats to say how many are minor vs serious.



kinda hard to draw the line tho on what is minor vs serious

i classify what she is dealing with right now as minor, even tho she is certainly 'sick'. she's laid up as if she has a bad cold or the flu. a few days out of work. knock on wood of course, but this is just a temporary inconvenience. 

however, for less economically secure people, and people who don't work remote graphic design jobs with generous leave and remote work policies, the minor inconvenience isnt so minor


----------



## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> we were supposed to go to nashville for my girlfriend's nephews wedding this weekend but she tested positive on Tuesday and feels like death. i tested negative antigen tuesday and negative PCR yesterday, so at this point I'm mostly relieved my techno and jamband shenanigans didn't ruin my girlfriend's first time to see her family since thanksgiving 2019. she attributes her infection to a busy day running around manhattan on public transit last Wednesday doing a bunch of female things in preparation for the wedding. kinda hard for us to isolate in a ~600 sq foot apartment with 2 main rooms, but I'm sticking to the living room and couch and my desk and shes sticking to our bedroom. our bathroom is in our bedroom, so not super ideal.


Sorry to hear about your girlfriend. Hope she recovers fast.



> i floated going to a hotel but she didn't want to be alone and I also need to take care of the cat and generally hold down the fort. got another pcr scheduled for tmrw mainly bc I am just curious about my own personal immunity living in close proximity with a breakthru


Technically, you're not suppose to go to another place where you'll have contact with more people, So hotel probably doesn't quite fit the protocol.

But hopefully you won't develop anything. My Mom had a friend who got breakthrough infection. But his wife didn't get it. Multiple test came back negative and no symptom. (tiny apartment in Manhattan also) So you have hope. 

Do keep us posted.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

she doesnt want me to leave, but the thought of the downtown brooklyn marriot with city views and a tub of ice cream and hash oil in my underpants sounded fucking awesome for a minute. super affordable on hoteltonight too. but i'm staying put. 

another pcr tmrw so we'll see if i remain neg


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> she doesnt want me to leave, but the thought of the downtown brooklyn marriot with city views and a tub of ice cream and hash oil in my underpants sounded fucking awesome for a minute. super affordable on hoteltonight too. but i'm staying put.
> 
> another pcr tmrw so we'll see if i remain neg


Maybe get 2 rooms next each other at the hotel


----------



## boston_e (Sep 23, 2021)

abc said:


> Sorry to hear about your girlfriend. Hope she recovers fast.
> 
> 
> Technically, you're not suppose to go to another place where you'll have contact with more people, So hotel probably doesn't quite fit the protocol.
> ...


Not only is there hope, but the odds are in Krusty’s favor.  Many more vaccinated people are not getting Covid than are - even when exposed.  (Although for sure living in a smaller apartment is resting that exposure to the max)

Fingers crossed for both of you.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I hate hearing about these breakthroughs that are bad cases. Too many people try to play it off that breakthroughs are "minor and no big deal". * I don't know that we have any real stats to say how many are minor vs serious.*



And you wont given the government's intentionally not tracking them.  Probably will need to look to Israel or perhaps the U.K. if you want real answers to that question.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *The idea that burger meat needs to be fresh to be great is totally false.*



This.   Any hunter could tell you that. 

Kill a deer & get it in the butcher's freezer in a few hours, then vacuum sealed upon processing, and the meat will be fire engine red and "fresh" for literally several years.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And you wont given the government's intentionally not tracking them.  Probably will need to look to Israel or perhaps the U.K. if you want real answers to that question.


My county was actually publishing the data on breakthroughs for a while until they suddenly stopped.   Small sample size but it was generally 30-50 percent of the daily cases.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> This.   Any hunter could tell you that.
> 
> Kill a deer & get it in the butcher's freezer in a few hours, then vacuum sealed upon processing, and the meat will be fire engine red and "fresh" for literally several years.


Better to let it hang for awhile before butchering. Really takes a lot of the gamie taste out of it


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> My county was actually publishing the data on breakthroughs for a while until they suddenly stopped.   Small sample size but it was generally 30-50 percent of the daily cases.



Which is exactly why they stopped publishing those numbers.  No doubt a higher authority told them to put an end to it.  There is a fear that people won’t get vaccinated if they see the number of breakthrough cases.  The messaging should focus on the fact that the vaccine helps even if you are infected.  The hospitalization rates show that.


----------



## abc (Sep 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Better to let it hang for awhile before butchering. Really takes a lot of the gamie taste out of it


Except some people actually like that gamie taste.

This illustrates this business of what's "good" when it comes to food is complicated. What's good for some maybe meh for others, or even bad. And sometimes, that preference can even change from day to day for the same person. Many of the fancy food I pay a premium to enjoy occasionally, I wouldn't have it too often, even if it's free.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> There's nothing too trivial about that.  Ocean Prime's rent is likely triple what a restaurant in Milton pays.  They probably have to pay all their staff 25-50% more to entice them to work downtown where the commute is longer and more costly.   They also could be using a higher quality ingredient (fresh gulf vs frozen Asian farmed).   Lastly, the demand is likely higher so their clientele is willing to pay more.



I understand that - but I am not finding the value.  you pay $40 to park, pay way more for the same quality and in Boston these days you are now fighting crowds.  The wait staff certainly are making more and their tips will surely be much better but that does not count towards the price of the menu.  But the menu helps the tip.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 24, 2021)

still negative via pcr


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I understand that - but I am not finding the value.  you pay $40 to park, pay way more for the same quality and in Boston these days you are now fighting crowds.  The wait staff certainly are making more and their tips will surely be much better but that does not count towards the price of the menu.  But the menu helps the tip.



You Individually might not find the value in it, but plenty of people do.  As you said, you fought crowds.  For the record, I rarely go into even Portsmouth these days for dinner, nevermind Boston.  Plenty of great eats walking distance from my home for a lower price. 

But it's all simple supply and demand forces.  The parking wouldn't be $40 if the demand wasn't there.  If that restaurant didn't pay the high rent and labor rates that they have to charge $32 for a shrimp cocktail, someone else will.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> still negative via pcr


Great to hear.  How many days has it been since you were exposed again?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 24, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Great to hear.  How many days has it been since you were exposed again?



i'm constantly exposed. i live with my girlfriend in a small apartment. she's keeping to the back room and i'm staying in the front, but the bathroom is back there and the kitchen is in here and i'm not masking in the house. realistically i can contract it any time that i'm here with her, but i reckon she's getting less infectious every day. i'll continue getting tested and won't be going anywhere til next weekend with a neg test first. 

she started expressing symptoms on sunday and tested positive tuesday, i've tested negative pcr weds and fri


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You Individually might not find the value in it, but plenty of people do.  As you said, you fought crowds.  For the record, I rarely go into even Portsmouth these days for dinner, nevermind Boston.  Plenty of great eats walking distance from my home for a lower price.
> 
> But it's all simple supply and demand forces.  The parking wouldn't be $40 if the demand wasn't there.  If that restaurant didn't pay the high rent and labor rates that they have to charge $32 for a shrimp cocktail, someone else will.



You are right!  For some the hustle and bustle is part of the vibe.  Not so much for me these days.  Prior to moving to Colorado I was all for it,  Returning to Boston no longer like it so much.

Certainly are many who are will the pay that is for sure.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Better to let it hang for awhile before butchering. *Really takes a lot of the gamie taste out of it*



  If venison has a "gamie taste" to it, it's because it was handled improperly sometime from time of death to butchering.  Could have been a poor shot itself, often it's poor field dressing, letting it hang too long in a suboptimal (i.e. warm) temperature, etc..    I do understand many like to hang their deer 2 to 14 days, but to do so it has to be winter.  Hang a deer in Jersey right now for several days in our current 74 to 81 degree temps & that will cause a gamey taste.  I dont mess with any of that.  I find if you get the deer to the butcher's freezer within just a few hours of death you circumvent the rigor mortis problems which makes hanging the deer for a while beneficial in the first place.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except s*ome people actually like that gamie taste.*



Wait, what now?  LOL


----------



## abc (Sep 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> still negative via pcr


That's good news.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2021)

Interesting analysis from VT Digger:

Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29. That’s the most recent date for which comprehensive data is available, and roughly tracks with estimates by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of when the Delta variant became dominant in the Northeast.

Adjusting for the state’s large fully vaccinated population, unvaccinated Vermonters are still dying from Covid at a slightly higher rate than vaccinated Vermonters, by a factor of about 1.2.









						Covid case counts set Vermont records, and state data shows concerning trends on fatalities
					

Eight weeks of data specific to the Delta variant shows that, while unvaccinated Vermonters remain at significantly higher risk of infection and hospitalization, older vaccinated Vermonters are dying from the



					vtdigger.org


----------



## boston_e (Sep 25, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting analysis from VT Digger:
> 
> Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29. That’s the most recent date for which comprehensive data is available, and roughly tracks with estimates by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of when the Delta variant became dominant in the Northeast.
> 
> ...


That would be unsuspected I’m sure by most…. Would be interesting to know the profile of those who are indeed dying.

The more interesting stat to me is that appx 5x the number of total cases are happening in the unvaccinated…. A testament that the vaccines are indeed still very effective.


----------



## x10003q (Sep 25, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting analysis from VT Digger:
> 
> Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29. That’s the most recent date for which comprehensive data is available, and roughly tracks with estimates by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of when the Delta variant became dominant in the Northeast.
> 
> ...


Interesting that you did not highlight this information also. The quotes are from the article you linked.
"Deaths reported during the Delta wave have skewed toward older age groups. People 60 or older account for roughly 79% of the 42 deaths reported since late July."
"Older Vermonters are statistically more likely to be vaccinated: State data shows that more than 96% of people 60 or older have completed vaccination."

Most of the people who are vaccinated and dying from Covid are over 60. This is why they are adding the booster for older Americans.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> If venison has a "gamie taste" to it, it's because it was handled improperly sometime from time of death to butchering.  Could have been a poor shot itself, often it's poor field dressing, letting it hang too long in a suboptimal (i.e. warm) temperature, etc..    I do understand many like to hang their deer 2 to 14 days, but to do so it has to be winter.  Hand a deer in Jersey right now for several days in our current 74 to 81 degree temps & that will cause a gamey taste.  I dont mess with any of that.  I find if you get the deer to the butcher's freezer within just a few hours of death you circumvent the rigor mortis problems which makes hanging the deer for a while beneficial in the first place.


Obviously need to hang it in a cool place. Bring it to the butcher have them hang it in a cool place then butcher and freeze.or do it yourself if your good at it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2021)

x10003q said:


> *Most of the people who are vaccinated and dying from Covid are over 60. *This is why they are adding the booster for older Americans.



Most of the people who are unvaccinated and dying from Covid are over 60.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.  I really think you want the vaccine to be a magic bullet.  It isnt.  I still strongly believe everyone should be vaccinated as it confers definite protection, but pretending it is something it is not isnt healthy either.  If you look through comments way back in this thread I was very EARLY in suggesting Δ was not something to be ****** with as I was alarmed by what I saw in European papers.  But it's naïve to not be worried about the breakthrough ability of this variant.  I have no doubt they're eventually going to find that it has evolved some conformational change to the specificity of the protein binding site.  That's bad news.  The good news is that PFE & MRNA can select for this & come up with a Δ-blocking vaccine likely in a matter of weeks (my guess is they both already have & we just dont know that yet) not dissimilar to the annual flu shot.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Most of the people who are unvaccinated and dying from Covid are over 60.
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say here.  I really think you want the vaccine to be a magic bullet.  It isnt.  I still strongly believe everyone should be vaccinated as it confers definite protection, but pretending it is something it is not isnt healthy either.  If you look through comments way back in this thread I was very EARLY in suggesting Δ was not something to be ****** with as I was alarmed by what I saw in European papers.  But it's naïve to not be worried about the breakthrough ability of this variant.  I have no doubt they're eventually going to find that it has evolved some conformational change to the specificity of the protein binding site.  That's bad news.  The good news is that PFE & MRNA can select for this & come up with a Δ-blocking vaccine likely in a matter of weeks (my guess is they both already have & we just dont know that yet) not dissimilar to the annual flu shot.



Combination of boosters with adjustment for delta plus vaccines for children will hopefully really burn this thing out for the most part. 

A friend of mine is an underwriter for disability insurance for some of the largest companies in the country.  He counts Walmart as a client.  They obviously have many metrics at their disposal, but this is the basic dashboard his business unit receives daily regarding Covid. 

It would appear we are on the downslope of the current wave.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 26, 2021)

the disco biscuits are playing in brooklyn 3 miles from my apartment outside and all my friends are going to hang out and drink beer all day and i'm not even fucking sick at all but have to stay in this fucking apt with typhoid mary. fuck.


----------



## abc (Sep 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the disco biscuits are playing in brooklyn 3 miles from my apartment outside and all my friends are going to hang out and drink beer all day and i'm not even fucking sick at all but have to stay in this fucking apt with typhoid mary. fuck.


When was the last time you tested negative?

If work place allow people to work with testing, it would imply the same...

No, I know the science doesn't exactly support that policy. But if you need an excuse to justify going... Especially if you just got tested negative the same day, it's pretty darn close to the margin of justifiable...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 26, 2021)

negative friday. still feel fine. not gonna be that guy who goes to a big party with an active covid case in my house.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> negative friday. still feel fine. not gonna be that guy who goes to a big party with an active covid case in my house.


To be fair, the second leading theory on Covid synthesis was that it was created in some bisco spunions drug lab.  You'd likely be in the majority at that show.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 26, 2021)

ketamine synthesis gone wildly awry

i'm also a bit annoyed with the event. its a full day festival type situation at the bk mirage, with tdb headlining. but the only other band i care to see (joe russo, john medeski, dave harrington, all improv trio) is at 3:30 PM, then its a bunch of shit i dont want to see (break science, the motet), and then the disco biscuits from 9-12, squeezing in a two set show and setbreak in a 3 hour chunk. a regular 2 set biscuits show and setbreak is 4 hours, so the whole thing is rushed. also ending at 12 on a sunday is annoying. no re-entry, and the venue hits you for like $15 per cocktail and the food there is crap. i have access to a few different free/cheap ways of getting in, but for gen pop this scam is $115 a ticket.

id vastly prefer a regular show to this festival bullshit, with the cool trio opening, whole program running from 6-11, for $50


----------



## drjeff (Sep 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> negative friday. still feel fine. not gonna be that guy who goes to a big party with an active covid case in my house.


My youngest, fully vaccinated, had 3 (non vaccinated) kids in his Chemistry Class test positive this week.

School guidelines for him as a vaccinated individual was that he still could go to school in person with his mask on (just like normal) and had to get a test within 3 days (got the negative results last night).

Same thing in my line of work, if I as a vaccinated person come in contact with a COVID positive person, protocol is unless I develop symptoms, I don't even have to bother getting tested nor miss any work.

Your "out of an abundance of caution" take on this is to be commended. The reality is though that your risk of doing harm to others, for numerous reasons, is incredibly low. That is just what the data behind the science, and not the media headlines, show


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 26, 2021)

drjeff said:


> My youngest, fully vaccinated, had 3 (non vaccinated) kids in his Chemistry Class test positive this week.
> 
> School guidelines for him as a vaccinated individual was that he still could go to school in person with his mask on (just like normal) and had to get a test within 3 days (got the negative results last night).
> 
> ...



if my exposure was fleeting i would be fully out and about in the world right now. i just happen to live with my vector who continues to cough and hack around my apartment.

theres also an element of preserving domestic harmony at play here. as well as an element of smug satisfaction of not being a hypocrite among my friends


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 26, 2021)

Thredbo Resort, Australia, Closing For the Season Due to Covid Restrictions - SnowBrains
					

Thredbo in Australia announced on Monday that Sunday will be the last day of this year's season––they will be closing early due covid-19




					snowbrains.com
				



Sad that close due to rescritiobs


----------



## abc (Sep 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if my exposure was fleeting i would be fully out and about in the world right now. i just happen to live with my vector who continues to cough and hack around my apartment.


That's a very good point.  You reasoning is spot on. You're the man!

I wish everyone are like you.


----------



## x10003q (Sep 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Most of the people who are unvaccinated and dying from Covid are over 60.
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say here.  I really think you want the vaccine to be a magic bullet.  It isnt.  I still strongly believe everyone should be vaccinated as it confers definite protection, but pretending it is something it is not isnt healthy either.  If you look through comments way back in this thread I was very EARLY in suggesting Δ was not something to be ****** with as I was alarmed by what I saw in European papers.  But it's naïve to not be worried about the breakthrough ability of this variant.  I have no doubt they're eventually going to find that it has evolved some conformational change to the specificity of the protein binding site.  That's bad news.  The good news is that PFE & MRNA can select for this & come up with a Δ-blocking vaccine likely in a matter of weeks (my guess is they both already have & we just dont know that yet) not dissimilar to the annual flu shot.


What I was referring to was the following statement about vaccinated people:
"Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29."
This statement was highlighted above from the article. It is better explained by other statements in the article that where not highlighted in the original post.
If you are under 60 and vaccinated, the death rate is tiny. Most of the vaccinated deaths are over 60.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 27, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Thredbo Resort, Australia, Closing For the Season Due to Covid Restrictions - SnowBrains
> 
> 
> Thredbo in Australia announced on Monday that Sunday will be the last day of this year's season––they will be closing early due covid-19
> ...



How early is this for them?  When does ski season usually end there I wonder?


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 27, 2021)

Says at the start of the article, first week of October. So basically a week or two early.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 27, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Says at the start of the article, first week of October. So basically a week or two early.


So it does - somehow I missed that!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2021)

another negative pcr. i think i can probably stop checking now.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 28, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> another negative pcr. i think i can probably stop checking now.


Excellent and great to hear.

How is your gf feeling?  Did they give any indication for how long she is contagious?

Vaccines definitely work, even if they are not 100%


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2021)

she's feeling better mostly. she had a very rough tuesday-friday, with significant improvement by Saturday. interestingly she first lost her smell sense on Saturday, after the aches and fevers and fatigue had all passed. she went for a walk outside today for the first time since the day she tested (9/21). she still can't smell smells and complains of a pain behind her eye that comes and goes. we both get migraines from time to time and she's had the eye thing all week and is adamant that its not a migraine and is different and is covidy


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> another negative pcr. i think i can probably stop checking now.


Great news!

And while not zero, your chances of testing positive, as a result of your girlfriend's COVID diagnosis now, are probably closer to the odds of you being say struck by lightning than say a significant number. May you continue to stay healthy and your girlfriend continue to improve back to a 100% normal situation quickly!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2021)

@deadheadskier and other phish people - posting here bc this is where trey chat came up. russ got covid and fishman joined trey band and they played a 12 song show last night with multiple 20+ min jams. i just finished the 21 min opening 46 days and a 32 min blaze on is next.  blaze on is a fucking terrible song but I'll grit my teeth for the first 5 minutes to get the 25 min of jamming. my biggest complaint of 3.0 phish is too many songs, not enough jams, so this piqued my interest big. i downloaded the torrent and zipped it up for anyone who may be interested: https://www.mediafire.com/file/bt7q...ge+AE+-+Pittsburgh,+Pennsylvania(V0).rar/file

the horns also got covid, so this is like a super ridiculously tight 5 piece of trey, fishman, ray, cyro, and a new bassist dezron douglass who has serious jazz credentials and is better than these jamband losers. just began set 2 and this is better than any phish i have heard since baker's dozen


----------



## ss20 (Sep 30, 2021)

https://www.crystalmountainresort.com/media/news/parking-announcement

Crystal going to paid parking Friday-Sunday, free for passholders. 

Will the last west coast destination resort with plenty of free parking within walking distance to the lifts please stand up?  It's just kinda weird.  Here on the East Coast the need for multiple base lodges and parking areas has been apparent for decades.  I understand geography is a limiting factor but along they way with exploding population growth in the West Coast states the past 50 years some mountain would've decided to invest in more parking rather than ritzy lodges and villages.  Crystal....one base area.  Jackson...one base area.  Snowbird/Alta, two each.  Killington...5.  Mount Snow...3.  Sunday River...4.  My favorite is Vail where there's threads on Pugski dedicated to finding the very few remaining free and/or close parking spots in Vail Village.


----------



## abc (Sep 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I understand geography is a limiting factor but along they way with exploding population growth in the West Coast states the past 50 years some mountain would've decided to invest in more parking rather than ritzy lodges and villages.


Geography is definitely a limiting factor. 

With limited land at the base, do you want to use it for parking? Or do you want to build a hotel on that spot? 

Vail made the decision early on to now provide free parking. The only few free ones only exist because it's outside of Vail Corp's control.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2021)

The MRK data out this morning is an absolute game-changer.  Most positive COVID19-related news since November 2020 when the vaccine success was announced.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The MRK data out this morning is an absolute game-changer.  Most positive COVID19-related news since November 2020 when the vaccine success was announced.



Of course the crazies will just call it rebadged invermectin.  Evil big pharma taken more of our monies!


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 2, 2021)

Busy ski areas need stacked parking garages.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Busy ski areas need stacked parking garages.


I've said this about Stowe for years.  They could literally double their parking by adding a deck at mansfield.  It could be done in a way where you'd hardly even notice.  Well it could be done that way if you wanted to spend the coin I guess.


----------



## abc (Oct 4, 2021)

They could recoup their coin by charging parking!


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2021)

I think the town and state would deny such a permit.  108 is a nightmare on weekends.  If Stowe wants to increase on mountain capacity they likely need to develop off site parking with a shuttle system.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2021)

I don't disagree, but is 108 an issue because the lot is an issue?  For instance if they could park people twice as fast would 108 be such a mess?  Right now they are getting the crowds regardless. on a snow day they could in theory double the parking but keep the snow removal the same.


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> @deadheadskier and other phish people - posting here bc this is where trey chat came up. russ got covid and fishman joined trey band and they played a 12 song show last night with multiple 20+ min jams. i just finished the 21 min opening 46 days and a 32 min blaze on is next.  blaze on is a fucking terrible song but I'll grit my teeth for the first 5 minutes to get the 25 min of jamming. my biggest complaint of 3.0 phish is too many songs, not enough jams, so this piqued my interest big. i downloaded the torrent and zipped it up for anyone who may be interested: https://www.mediafire.com/file/bt7q...ge+AE+-+Pittsburgh,+Pennsylvania(V0).rar/file
> 
> the horns also got covid, so this is like a super ridiculously tight 5 piece of trey, fishman, ray, cyro, and a new bassist dezron douglass who has serious jazz credentials and is better than these jamband losers. just began set 2 and this is better than any phish i have heard since baker's dozen


Yeah, I want to check that out.

OUr return to live music was supposed to be Phish in AC but since the tour swam up through the covid in LA, TN and GA, and we were travelling five days after teh show, we decided to scrub.  Lots of break through reports on tour.

Probably an over cautious decision on our part - we wouldn't be at after parties or gambling indoors.  

But we streamed it and enjoyed....

Winter's coming...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2021)

I queued this up in the LivePhish App.  damn good jamming  without the horns.  Makes me think he should consider a tour with just the 4 or 5 piece.

Also I thought the summer tour was well played and had a some pretty good jams in it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I don't disagree, but is 108 an issue because the lot is an issue?  For instance if they could park people twice as fast would 108 be such a mess?  Right now they are getting the crowds regardless. on a snow day they could in theory double the parking but keep the snow removal the same.



It would help some, but I still think the town / state would want to see alternative transportation plans to reduce traffic.  The road can't really be expanded to multiple lanes all that easily.  

 I can't really think of another mountain in the East that attracts as many people as Stowe does and only has a two lane road going in to one parking / base area from one direction only.   Most places you can either access from two or more directions or they at least have two or more base areas to spread people out.


----------



## abc (Oct 4, 2021)

But part of Stowe's traffic IS from cars waiting for parking at the base! It's a bit of a self-inflicted problem. Eliminating parking at Spruce made a bad situation worse.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)

for sure but AIG made/makes a lot of money on that fancy development.

I agree DHS that its not likely all just related to queuing from actual parking.   If you think about the Killington Access Road its a 4 lane roadway for most of it.  Obviously something like that can't be built up 108.


----------



## skiur (Oct 5, 2021)

K also has two parking lots/ base areas that aren't even on the access road.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)

for sure  its also substantially larger and more spread out than Stowe.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 5, 2021)

I learned early on to get to Stowe first thing. i was usually the 3rd car in the lot.


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## kingslug (Oct 5, 2021)

Watched some college football this weekend. Not a fan but I have to wonder...packing 90,000 people into them..what does this cause ??


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I queued this up in the LivePhish App.  damn good jamming  without the horns.  Makes me think he should consider a tour with just the 4 or 5 piece.
> 
> Also I thought the summer tour was well played and had a some pretty good jams in it.



it was fucking sick at radio city on saturday, and i have been a big 3.0 hater. major guitar driven jamming.

40 min ghost>mr.completely

then i went to the bk mirage for techno til 530 am. 

it was like being 25 all over again.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)




----------



## skiur (Oct 5, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Watched some college football this weekend. Not a fan but I have to wonder...packing 90,000 people into them..what does this cause ??


Lots of people having a good time.


----------



## PAabe (Oct 5, 2021)

Delaware Stadium has been full! for all of the football games so far, including an overflowing student section.  It hasn't been consistently full in many years.
Penn State had a top-10 attendance record of 110,000 at Beaver Stadium a few weeks ago.  People are really excited to get out and about


----------



## Dickc (Oct 5, 2021)

From the New York Times email newsletter the other morning:


Good morning. New Covid cases in the U.S. have fallen by more than a third in the past month.​











A medic cleaning a stretcher in Houston after transferring a Covid-19 patient last month.John Moore/Getty Images​


That two-month cycle​​

Covid-19 is once again in retreat.​

The reasons remain somewhat unclear, and there is no guarantee that the decline in caseloads will continue. But the turnaround is now large enough — and been going on long enough — to deserve attention.​

The number of new daily cases in the U.S. has fallen 35 percent since Sept. 1:​







Worldwide, cases have also dropped more than 30 percent since late August. “This is as good as the world has looked in many months,” Dr. Eric Topol of Scripps Research wrote last week.​

These declines are consistent with a pattern that regular readers of this newsletter will recognize: Covid’s mysterious two-month cycle. Since the Covid virus began spreading in late 2019, cases have often surged for about two months — sometimes because of a variant, like Delta — and then declined for about two months.​

Epidemiologists do not understand why. Many popular explanations, like seasonality or the ebbs and flows of social distancing, are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.​

The most plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.​

Human behavior does play a role, with people often becoming more careful once caseloads begin to rise. But social distancing is not as important as public discussion of the virus often imagines. “We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.​

The recent declines, for example, have occurred even as millions of American children have again crowded into school buildings.​

​​


----------



## Dickc (Oct 5, 2021)

Second part as it too big for one post:


Hospitalizations, too​​

Whatever the reasons, the two-month cycle keeps happening. It is visible in the global numbers, as you can see in the chart below. Cases rose from late February to late April, then fell until late June, rose again until late August and have been falling since.​







The pattern has also been evident within countries, including India, Indonesia, Thailand, Britain, France and Spain. In each of them, the Delta variant led to a surge in cases lasting somewhere from one and a half to two and a half months.​

In the U.S., the Delta surge started in several Southern states in June and began receding in those states in August. In much of the rest of the U.S., it began in July, and cases have begun falling the past few weeks. Even pediatric cases are falling, despite the lack of vaccine authorization for children under 12, as Jennifer Nuzzo of Johns Hopkins University told The Washington Post. (You can see the overall trends for every state here.)​

The most encouraging news is that serious Covid illnesses are also declining. The number of Americans hospitalized with Covid has fallen about 25 percent since Sept. 1. Daily deaths — which typically change direction a few weeks after cases and hospitalizations — have fallen 10 percent since Sept. 20. It is the first sustained decline in deaths since the early summer.​







‘The last major wave’?​​

This is the part of the newsletter where I need to emphasize that these declines may not persist. Covid’s two-month cycle is not some kind of iron law of science. There have been plenty of exceptions.​

In Britain, for example, caseloads have seesawed over the past two months, rather than consistently fallen. In the U.S., the onset of cold weather and the increase in indoor activities — or some other unknown factor — could cause a rise in cases this fall. The course of the pandemic remains highly uncertain.​

But this uncertainty also means that the near future could prove to be more encouraging than we expect. And there are some legitimate reasons for Covid optimism.​

The share of Americans 12 and over who have received at least one vaccine shot has reached 76 percent, and the growing number of vaccine mandates — along with the likely authorization of the Pfizer vaccine for children ages 5 to 11 — will increase the number of vaccinations this fall. Almost as important, something like one-half of Americans have probably had the Covid virus already, giving them some natural immunity.​

Eventually, immunity will become widespread enough that another wave as large and damaging as the Delta wave will not be possible. “Barring something unexpected,” Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a former F.D.A. commissioner and the author of “Uncontrolled Spread,” a new book on Covid, told me, “I’m of the opinion that this is the last major wave of infection.”​

Covid has not only been one of the worst pandemics in modern times. It has been an unnecessarily terrible pandemic. Of the more than 700,000 Americans who have died from it, nearly 200,000 probably could have been saved if they had chosen to take a vaccine. That is a national tragedy.​

Covid also isn’t going to disappear anytime soon. It will continue to circulate for years, many scientists believe. But the vaccines can transform Covid into a manageable disease, not so different from a flu or common cold. In the past few weeks, the country appears to have moved closer to that less grim future.​

Whatever this autumn brings, the worst of the pandemic is almost certainly behind us.​

Virus developments:​


The pandemic has made diapers more expensive and scarce. 
Johnson & Johnson is planning to ask for federal authorization for boosters this week.


----------



## jimk (Oct 5, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Watched some college football this weekend. Not a fan but I have to wonder...packing 90,000 people into them..what does this cause ??


I went to a college football game 10 days ago at my alma mater, Univ of Maryland.  It wasn't a high interest game and the stadium attendance was ~30k out of ~50k seats.  I sat with some friends in the ozone layer where the crowd density was very light.  I was comfortable with the situation.  We also tailgated at a friends house near the stadium before the game.  The only time I wore a mask was going through ticketing/turnstiles while entering stadium, which was heavily bottlenecked for a few minutes.  Vast majority of crowd never wore a mask.
Photo taken about 5 minutes before game started, Terps just entering field on left.  The stands filled a little more after this.  MD beat Kent State.  We have Tua's little bro as QB and he's good!


----------



## kingslug (Oct 6, 2021)

We were watching the Notre Dame game...packed...


----------



## drjeff (Oct 6, 2021)

kingslug said:


> We were watching the Notre Dame game...packed...



Both of the Patriots games at Gillette Stadium I have been to this season were I would estimate in the 80-90% full range. Gillette holds 80K when full.

Very few people were choosing to wear a mask. Nobody that I observed was giving the folks who chose to wear a mask a hard time or vice cersa


----------



## kingslug (Oct 6, 2021)

Super spreader........


----------



## drjeff (Oct 6, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Super spreader........


Seems like, since it's been over a month that both college and pro football have been filling stadiums, that the fear of them being super spreader events just hasn't happened.

Guessing the the combo of those with antibodies (either from vaccines or naturally occurring via having had and recovered from COVID in the past, plus if an outdoor stadium the fresh air factor (and even with the ventillation systems in indoor stadiums the air is always moving a bit) cause a similar lack of super spreader events that our beloved outdoor skiing/riding experienced last season, Since if we're all honest the majority of "masks" we were wearing while out skiing/riding didn't do much to prevent the inhalation of aerosolized particles and were more about a visual reminder to stay apart


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 6, 2021)

its time to stop with the bullshit 'super spreader' talk. we're in a different place now. especially in the northeast. people are vaccinated and if they get sick it sucks for a few days but you don't end up in the hospital or dead. if you aren't vaxxed, get fucked, drop dead, i don't much care what happens to you. but its far past time to get on with life and resume normal activity, especially with this merck pill on top of the vaccines. and i was one of the most hardcore covid safety evangelists pre-vaccine, but enough already.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its time to stop with the bullshit 'super spreader' talk. we're in a different place now. especially in the northeast. people are vaccinated and if they get sick it sucks for a few days but you don't end up in the hospital or dead. if you aren't vaxxed, get fucked, drop dead, i don't much care what happens to you. but its far past time to get on with life and resume normal activity, especially with this merck pill on top of the vaccines. and i was one of the most hardcore covid safety evangelists pre-vaccine, but enough already.


Now Kusty, stop making sense like that!

We all know that if society as a whole starts living their lives again (and living one's life has ALWAYS had some degree of risk associated with it, and always will have some degree of risk associated with it) then both the media and various elected and/or government appointed officials loose the power of much of society that they have acquired inparticular in some areas over the last 18+ months.  And asking them to give that up is about as easy as asking a crack addict to just walk by their dealer and not buy more.......

It seems like that at somepoint, everyone will get COVID. If one is vaccinated, or had COVID and recovered from it or is in a population demographic that the vast majority of the country falls into with limited co-morbidities, it's very unlikely to be a big deal. For a very small percntage of folks, even some vaccinated folks, it certainly can be a major deal.


----------



## NYDB (Oct 6, 2021)

yeah.  It seems pretty clear outdoor activities are fairly safe even with 80,000 people.  Like a NFL game or MLK Sunday at Mount Snow.  

Not so sure about gathering with 40,000 people indoors though.  Seems like a bad idea no matter what type of air filtration system you got.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 6, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> It seems pretty clear outdoor activities are fairly safe even with 80,000 people.  Like a NFL game or MLK Sunday at Mount Snow.



This is the funniest line I've read on this forum is quite a while .  Rings so true... for a time 10ish years ago I'd do 2-3 Saturday's a season at Mount Snow on ski club days when our bus would be one of 3 dozen+ that were there.  The bus would drop us off at Sundance lodge.  To ride the lift out of there, get to the main base, and get on a lift up to the Summit or Canyon to actually start the day would take a solid 45-60 minutes.  Once we figured out Seasons dropped you high enough up the hill you could skate to the main base it was a GAME CHANGER for our group lol.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 6, 2021)

Hey I'm all for getting on with it. Just wondering if events like this have an impact. We have to get on with it already..I am.


----------



## EastCoastScott (Oct 7, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> People requesting to ride the lift alone


Let's hope the lifties don't let this happen.


----------



## abc (Oct 7, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Super spreader........


It is a curious thing...

On the one hand, I've not seen any paper documenting significant outdoor transmission. No superspreader associated with outdoor events. 

On the other hand, don't people hang out afterwards? Do they all hang out just outside (tailgate)? I would have expected some cases associated with people who went to bars/restaurants after the game! 

The fact that there's no significant cases that can be linked to these large outdoor events maybe an indication that 1) vaccine works; or 2) there simply not that many people walking around spewing viruses (which maybe a result of reason number 1). If true, then we're on our way out of the pandemic "naturally".


----------



## drjeff (Oct 7, 2021)

abc said:


> It is a curious thing...
> 
> On the one hand, I've not seen any paper documenting significant outdoor transmission. No superspreader associated with outdoor events.
> 
> ...


*Most* major stadiums tend to be in non urban areas, so the tailgating scene (both before and after) tends to be out in the parking lots for the majority of folks, rather than inside a local bar/restaurant.


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 7, 2021)

Is contact tracing even still a thing in the US?  To the extent there are super spreader events, I suspect they are more likely to be identified when the people gathered together have some kind of on-going connection, like a wedding or family reunion, rather than a concert or sports game where most people are strangers coming together from and dispersing to a fairly wide geographic footprint.  Add to that the fact that most people seem to be living life as usual these days, and tracing an infection to a particular source quickly begins to look like an exercise in futility.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 7, 2021)

As far as I'm concerned if you can pack all these people together..all over the country..then we are good to go. Can't think of a bigger venue then these stadium events.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 7, 2021)

Just made an appointment for a booster. 

was on the fence about it, but the number of close quarters meetings and crowded indoor settings I was in this week for work, and the new data on Pfizer pushed me over the edge.

I realize we're probably all gonna get Covid, and for the vaccinated, it will likely be no bg deal, but have would just rather not get it and not have a chance to spread it.

Also, this will set me up nice for the coldest months of ski season, where you are most likely to need to go indoors!


----------



## abc (Oct 8, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Just made an appointment for a booster.
> 
> was on the fence about it, but the number of close quarters meetings and crowded indoor settings I was in this week for work, and the new data on Pfizer pushed me over the edge.
> 
> ...


Some of us are not eligible for booster. 

I will instead refuse any close quarter indoor meetings. Unless, of course, if everyone is vaccinated. (my company is still undecided on vaccine mandates. So till that gets decided, I'm not going in for meetings) Fortunately, my company is not even requiring us to be in office just yet. So it's all theoretical at the moment.


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 8, 2021)

abc said:


> Some of us are not eligible for booster.
> 
> I will instead refuse any close quarter indoor meetings. Unless, of course, if everyone is vaccinated. (my company is still undecided on vaccine mandates. So till that gets decided, I'm not going in for meetings) Fortunately, my company is not even requiring us to be in office just yet. So it's all theoretical at the moment.


In NJ they are being very lax with the requirements.  Basically if you think your job puts you at risk you can get a booster.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> In NJ they are being very lax with the requirements.  Basically if you think your job puts you at risk you can get a booster.



Interesting.   I wonder what my doctor would say for me.   Though I don't believe Moderna has been permitted for boosters yet.  I'm in hospitals potentially near Covid patients and definitely clinicians that treat them every day.


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting.   I wonder what my doctor would say for me.   Though I don't believe Moderna has been permitted for boosters yet.  I'm in hospitals potentially near Covid patients and definitely clinicians that treat them every day.


Moderna is approved for third shot but not booster....don't really understand the difference, but if you are over 65 or immunocompromised, you can get moderna, but not if you have work related issues.

You can cross pollinate these vaccines, but on the other hand, I think moderna is holding up better than Pfizer-BioNTech against infection, so might be moot for you.


----------



## abc (Oct 8, 2021)

All of a sudden everybody is their own doctor now? Deciding to get extra vaccines, getting different kind of vaccines etc...

What's next, horse medicine? Is drinking bleach that far away?


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

Not my own doctor.  But, there seems to be broad enough consensus in the research community that boosters can do more good than harm.  We are just in the red tape phase now.  When recommended I will absolutely take it if there's a potential health benefit to me and my family.   Feel the same about vaccine releases for my 6 and soon to be 3 year old.


----------



## abc (Oct 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not my own doctor.  But, there seems to be broad enough consensus in the research community that boosters can do more good than harm.  We are just in the red tape phase now.  When recommended I will absolutely take it if there's a potential health benefit to me and my family.   Feel the same about vaccine releases for my 6 and soon to be 3 year old.


The medical consensus are changing too. How quickly do we forget what it’s like 18 months ago when Covid is completely unknown and a potential death sentence? We now have 2 drugs for treatment and a substantially lower breakthrough infection rate for those vaccinated. Not to mention a milder disease even for those infected (or even unvaccinated children). 

The “good” of the booster shot is far less obvious than the first one. The “red tape” is a reflection of disagreement within the medical community.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2021)

Thank you for your hard hitting analysis abc. 

You do you and what you feel is best for your family and risk factors.  I'll do what I feel is best for mine.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 9, 2021)

I went to my doctor last Wednesday for my annual.  He said the boster is a good Idea if I want one.  He's kind of reasearch freek and is always telling me his spin on things.  I will go with his opinion and get the boster as soon as I am elegeble.  Maybe sooner.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 9, 2021)

So back on the Ski industry track for a minute.  I am headed over to the Sugarbush Community day meeting at 10:30.  I assume we will be hearing from John Hammond on what this year will be like here at Sugarbush.  I will report back with anything note worthy.


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 9, 2021)

abc said:


> The medical consensus are changing too. How quickly do we forget what it’s like 18 months ago when Covid is completely unknown and a potential death sentence? We now have 2 drugs for treatment and a substantially lower breakthrough infection rate for those vaccinated. Not to mention a milder disease even for those infected (or even unvaccinated children).
> 
> The “good” of the booster shot is far less obvious than the first one. The “red tape” is a reflection of disagreement within the medical community.




Israeli study indicates booster restores 95% protection against infection, so seems pretty obvious that it helps.

The booster is approved for many people - over 65, certain conditions, and certain workers. My state allows you to ascertain your job risk and make the determination yourself.  The nature of my work requires lots of indoor, close contact with lots of people in the course of the week.  Not as many people as a front line  cashier, but more sustained contact, like 45-60 minutes at a clip.

I am not worried about hospitalization or death, but I am worried about getting covid and shutting down my business for 2 weeks, and potentially spreading it to other employees and clients, as well as spreading it to our parents - all vaccinated, but not boosted as of yet.

When I asked my doctor about it she said (this was prior to FDA decision) "We expect the FDA to approve it for all, so until then we can't recommend it to you.  But I do know pharmacies already are giving it no questions asked.  I can't recommend you get it until we hear CDC guidance, but that is what I know."









						Pfizer says Israel data shows third Covid shot restores protection from infection to 95% as it makes case to FDA for boosters
					

The FDA released the data as the agency faces pressure from the Biden administration to authorize booster shots for the general public as early as next week.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## abc (Oct 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Thank you for your hard hitting analysis abc.
> 
> You do you and what you feel is best for your family and risk factors.  I'll do what I feel is best for mine.


Totally!

I was first in the queue for my first shot. The benefit of the first vaccination is huge.

But now I plan to wait till most people got theirs before I bother with the booster. By which I mean to wait for more data between those with and without booster. No sense putting more “stuff” into my body for small benefit in protection against a disease that I'm most likely to recover on my own. The risk is probably no more than my getting hit by an out of control skier this winter! OK, there's no vaccine for the latter. 

P.S,
Though come to think of it, my Mom who used to work in hospital before she retired did get a few more vaccination on diseases I've never heard of. So clearly the increased exposure was taken into account. Makes sense.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting.   I wonder what my doctor would say for me.   Though I don't believe Moderna has been permitted for boosters yet.  I'm in hospitals potentially near Covid patients and definitely clinicians that treat them every day.


Same here except I had the Pfizer.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 9, 2021)

Things are going bonkers in gorham and Berlin nh according to the news.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 9, 2021)

The Sugarbush yearly update was short and to the point this year.  As we all here know there was not a lot planned for upgrades this year.  The big news was about the new Vermont adaptive sports building and upgrades to the Mt Ellen lodge.  I stopped by and this looks pretty cool.  they expanded the right side of the building to incorporate the space.  Highlights are new bathrooms on all three levels, en elevator for access to all floors, a new huge deck on the back and modifications and upgrades to the rest of the lodge.  For the rest of the mountain:  They did a bunch of maintanence, restored the gadd brook by removing the culvert and exposing the brook, bought a new groomer and excavator, bought more guns, dug out the Mt Ellen snowmaking pond for more capacity, put new snowmaking pipes on Northstar I think, maybe is was cruiser.  One of those that takes all the traffic back down to Northridge chair.

Lastly they did not mention the rules this season for Covid safety.  It sounded like the lodges will still be somewhat restricted as they talked about keeping the online ordering and pick up.  They did not mention crowd levels in the lodge for warming and hanging out.  They did not mention the lift lines.  But in an off the record conversation I had with a couple of people, it sounded like they were going to ease or not enforce masks in line, get rid of the empty coral lines inbetween and the singles line might be back.  So somewhat back to normal outside and maybe a little easing with the indoor policies.  I think it is still a wait and see how the infection  levels are come November and what the state publishes for guildlines.  It sounded positive.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 9, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> In NJ they are being very lax with the requirements.  Basically if you think your job puts you at risk you can get a booster.


Pfizer Yes,  Moderna NO.  
Thankful that our complex got Pfizer in Jan.
 Boosters for all started 9/27 week


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 10, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Thank you for your hard hitting analysis abc.
> 
> You do you and what you feel is best for your family and risk factors.  I'll do what I feel is best for mine.



That's what you get for feeding it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 10, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> When I asked my doctor about it she said (this was prior to FDA decision) "We expect the FDA to approve it for all, so until then we can't recommend it to you.  But I do know pharmacies already are giving it no questions asked.  I can't recommend you get it until we hear CDC guidance, but that is what I know."



Great doctor, I like her; she's telling you she thinks it's a good idea to get it without legally being able to tell you to get it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 10, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Pfizer Yes,  *Moderna NO. *
> Thankful that our complex got Pfizer in Jan.
> Boosters for all started 9/27 week



October 20 FDA decision for MRNA, October 21 FDA decision for JNJ.

I'll be shocked if they're not both "yes".


----------



## drjeff (Oct 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> October 20 FDA decision for MRNA, October 21 FDA decision for JNJ.
> 
> I'll be shocked if they're not both "yes".


Since from the mRNA perspective, Moderna had a bunch more "horsepower" than Pfizer had, while I fully expect a booster of Moderna to be recommended, if by some reason it isn't, as a Moderna double jab recipient, with my 2nd jab being in late January, I will trust the science...

Since it seems like if one is honest and objective about the science, eventually we're all going to get COVID.. And if you're vaccinated, or don't have numerous co-morbities, or are of certain age demographics, your risk of serious complications is incredibly low. If you have numerous co-morbities, or are in certain  MUCH OLDER, age demographics, you will have a higher, but still WAY, WAY, WAY less than 50% chance of having significant complications from COVID


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 11, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Things are going bonkers in gorham and Berlin nh according to the news.


wtf does that even mean. most of us don't get rural New Hampshire news...


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wtf does that even mean. most of us don't get rural New Hampshire news...


Lots of covid cases. Mayor of Berlin is thinking of implementing mask requirements


----------



## kingslug (Oct 11, 2021)

So much for..Live free or die I guess


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 11, 2021)

live free _and _die


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## kingslug (Oct 11, 2021)

Hmm..new flags will need to be printed...


----------



## machski (Oct 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Lots of covid cases. Mayor of Berlin is thinking of implementing mask requirements


And that far North in NH is very independant and conservative.  Betting the region is also the lowest vaxed in state.  Berlin also doesn't have many ICU beds, so that could be a concern up there too.  I know the two most norhern Maine counties have also been dealing with a large covid surge as of late.  Seems the northern crowns have surged later than the balance of both states in the last several surge bouts.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2021)

5 "ICU" beds to be exact.  You catch the vid bad there, you are almost for certain being transferred to Dartmouth or CMMC


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Lots of covid cases. Mayor of Berlin is thinking of implementing mask requirements



Just learned tonight that a high school here in western Jersey's going remote tomorrow because they had 30 confirmed COVID cases Friday and rumor on the street is it's up to 125 affected today, though I'm assuming that includes close contact kids who arent actually infected.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 12, 2021)

This brings me back to these monster events happening all over the country. Can they be sustained or are they causing outbreaks. But..life goes on..we have reached the point that the economy cannot be stalled again.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2021)

another false equivalency.

a classroom with 25 unvaccinated kids in close proximity for 7 hours a day 5 days a week is not the same thing as a stadium full of vaccinated adults for 3 hours 1 day, especially an outdoor one.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just learned tonight that a high school here in western Jersey's going remote tomorrow because they had 30 confirmed COVID cases Friday and rumor on the street is it's up to 125 affected today, though I'm assuming that includes close contact kids who arent actually infected.



My kids highschool, roughly 1600 total student population, has switched their potential exposure protocols from (for the vaccinated) mandatory test within 3 days, to now "only if symptoms develop is testing needed" - and my son had 2 potential contacts that my wife and I were notiied of withing the last 2 weeks, since we were seeing both my parents and my in-laws a few days after each potential exposure, we had him tested twice, with 2 negative results. The unvaccinated have to do the 10 days quarrantine with a negative test

And in among his friends that he has known at school that have tested positive, short of some mild flu like symptoms for a day or 2, no big deal. 

Most (over 80% is the number the school has referenced) of the student population in my kids school are either fully vaccinated or have their 1st dose of Pfizer.

In one form or another, I suspect that many a school administrator hopes that those who haven't been vaccinated get COVID so that they'll get their antibodies that way and the school day to day activities will get back to normal that much sooner.

It is interesting to see than many Northern European countries, where the kids were basically in school for almost the entire pandemic, and the majority of the time without any mask wearing, have faired very well, and certainly no worse than our response in the US has been about schools, and one may argue that down the road, having the kids in person for that much more time may actually have been the better way for the kids, to handle this


----------



## boston_e (Oct 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> My kids highschool, roughly 1600 total student population, has switched their potential exposure protocols from (for the vaccinated) mandatory test within 3 days, to now "only if symptoms develop is testing needed" - and my son had 2 potential contacts that my wife and I were notiied of withing the last 2 weeks, since we were seeing both my parents and my in-laws a few days after each potential exposure, we had him tested twice, with 2 negative results. The unvaccinated have to do the 10 days quarrantine with a negative test
> 
> And in among his friends that he has known at school that have tested positive, short of some mild flu like symptoms for a day or 2, no big deal.
> 
> ...


My sons high school is what you describe.  For the vaccinated with an exposure you watch for symptoms.  At his school they added the Covid vaccine to the list of required immunizations.  So far we have not been notified of a contact and their "covid dashboard" has shown 2 cases so far this year.

My sons middle school is similar: vaccinated with exposure just watch for symptoms and unvaccinated have a "test and stay" option if they want - they can do a rapid test every morning at the nurses office and as long as they continue to test negative they can stay in school.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> another false equivalency.
> 
> a classroom with 25 unvaccinated kids in close proximity for 7 hours a day 5 days a week is not the same thing as a stadium full of vaccinated adults for 3 hours 1 day, especially an outdoor one.



If you're talking an elementary or the younger grades of a middle school, then that applies. If you're talking a highschool or older half of a middle school (age 12 and up) then you generally have a significant vaccination rate.

You really can't make a "1 size fits all" statement about schools right now, as there are plenty of varaibles with ages and vaccination percentages


----------



## drjeff (Oct 12, 2021)

boston_e said:


> My sons high school is what you describe.  For the vaccinated with an exposure you watch for symptoms.  At his school they added the Covid vaccine to the list of required immunizations.  So far we have not been notified of a contact and their "covid dashboard" has shown 2 cases so far this year.
> 
> My sons middle school is similar: vaccinated with exposure just watch for symptoms and unvaccinated have a "test and stay" option if they want - they can do a rapid test every morning at the nurses office and as long as they continue to test negative they can stay in school.



Yup, it seems like the majority of schools have adopted a "do whatever it takes to keep as many students in school (safely) as many days as possible", and atleast among my 2 highschoolers, they both have the attitude of "I will do whatever I need to to be IN school every day", and that seems to be the sentiment around basically all of the school aged kids who I see in my practice


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> If you're talking an elementary or the younger grades of a middle school, then that applies. If you're talking a highschool or older half of a middle school (age 12 and up) then you generally have a significant vaccination rate.
> 
> You really can't make a "1 size fits all" statement about schools right now, as there are plenty of varaibles with ages and vaccination percentages



yea, thats what i meant. 12+ kids can be vaccinated and i would hope the rate is very high in the northeast. they also move about all day with different teachers and groups of kids. but kids <12 are typically in one room with one teacher all day and arent vaccinated. my main point is there's no comparison vs a large event fully attended by adults for a few hours, most of whom are fully vaxxed


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## drjeff (Oct 12, 2021)

A couple of observations from this past weekend up in the Mount Snow area

1) If not totally sold out, the majority of hotels that were open were very close to sold out

2) The majority of restaurants were quite busy

3) Oktoberfest at Mount Snow had a solid crowd (what I heard is that they capped attendance at 3000 people and that it sold out) And the wedding party who went up the Bluebird to take pictures I presume, got a HUGE ovation from the crowd when they returned back to the base area to head over to the Grand Summit Hotel for their reception! 

4) While Vail Resorts had signs on all doors to enter any building stating that people had to wear masks while inside and not eating (most people were following that request) there wasn't any rigid enforcement of that policy at this time

5) There are some people, who aren't getting past the fear of COVID anytime soon.  Saw numerous couples out either just on a walk, or walking their dog(s) on the roads of my condo complex, with nobody else around, and even if/when you encounter another group, our paved areas are atleast 2 lanes if not 3 lanes of asphlat wide so it's easy to keep one's distance, wearing masks, for that activity. Not sure what their personal health situation is? Will say that there were a plethora of New York plates in the parking areas of our complex this weekend

6) The majority of people seem to be functioning if not 100% back to "normal" than over 90%.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 12, 2021)

wearing a mask outside walking the dog is ridiculous


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 12, 2021)

So not that it effects me as I have insurance through my wife’s work, my companies insurance company just added a $50 a pay period “excise tax” if you are not vaccinated…


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2021)

people here in nyc definitely still wear masks just walking around the street. not everyone, but its common and no one raises an eyebrow. i carry one in my back pocket and put it on in retail businesses and grocery stores and the lobby and elevator at work.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So not that it effects me as I have insurance through my wife’s work, my companies insurance company just added a $50 a pay period “excise tax” if you are not vaccinated…



good.


----------



## abc (Oct 12, 2021)

Yes, I saw quite a lot of people walking around town with mask on. At first I thought that's pointless. Outdoor mask wearing is not terribly beneficial after all. But then, I found myself going in and out of stores that require mask. Instead of taking my mask off after exiting each door, only to put them back on 30 seconds later, I just left it on. This is from someone who really dislike wearing masks! I now think some of those people who're wearing mask outdoors may just be too lazy to take them off after their last indoor foray.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 12, 2021)

there has been some "chatter" of the insurance companies requiring the vaccine or they won't cover COVID related health care.  Not sure how that all shakes out with the ACA though.  Can't say I've seen this reported heavily with the major news players. I'm sure in FL and TX as well as many other places this would be challenged legally.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 12, 2021)

we did go to a wedding in Westchester County over the weekend and 3 of our friends who we were sat with kept their masks on when indoors and not eating. one of them is a new mother with a 6 month old at home, and the other couple the husband has some autoimmune disease. so i get it. but they were the only 3 masked folks at the wedding.


----------



## kbroderick (Oct 12, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, I saw quite a lot of people walking around town with mask on. At first I thought that's pointless. Outdoor mask wearing is not terribly beneficial after all. But then, I found myself going in and out of stores that require mask. Instead of taking my mask off after exiting each door, only to put them back on 30 seconds later, I just left it on. This is from someone who really dislike wearing masks! I now think some of those people who're wearing mask outdoors may just be too lazy to take them off after their last indoor foray.


Speaking as someone whose wife has given him crap for leaving one on, if I have either the stroller or the dog in my hands and expect to have reason to put a mask on in the near future, I'll leave the mask on. Less so now that we're pretty clear that outdoor transmission seems negligible, but when we were treating close passes on the sidewalk as a potential issue, I'd leave it on most of the time walking the dog, as he's pretty good at requiring most of my attention when approaching other people.


----------



## Edd (Oct 12, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, I saw quite a lot of people walking around town with mask on. At first I thought that's pointless. Outdoor mask wearing is not terribly beneficial after all. But then, I found myself going in and out of stores that require mask. Instead of taking my mask off after exiting each door, only to put them back on 30 seconds later, I just left it on. This is from someone who really dislike wearing masks! I now think some of those people who're wearing mask outdoors may just be too lazy to take them off after their last indoor foray.


I’ve done that walking downtown where I live if there’s a few stops to make. Just easier. Very few masks around here at this point though.

When I was up in Maine around Bar Harbor a few weeks ago the masks were much more prevalent.  Made sense because of the tourism but felt weird all over again.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 12, 2021)

I actually don't mind wearing it on a subway..probably would have been a good idea..even before covid!


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I actually don't mind wearing it on a subway..probably would have been a good idea..even before covid!


Should wear a biohazard suit on the subway


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2021)

abc said:


> I saw quite a lot of people walking around town with mask on. At first* I thought that's pointless. *



It's not pointless if self-esteem boosting virtue-signaling is your aim.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *there has been some "chatter" of the insurance companies requiring the vaccine or they won't cover COVID* related health care.  Not sure how that all shakes out with the ACA though.



I think that's an entirely reasonable policy so long as there arent any unintended readthroughs that I'm not considering.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2021)

It's interesting to read all these New England takes that in your states most people aren't wearing masks.  Here in New Jersey it's still gotta' be >= 50% of people still wearing masks.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2021)

So in FDA docs released today it looks like the MRNA booster may not be soon approved for most, but there's a positive plot twist in that surprise, which is that it's apparently because the time-period drop in effectiveness wasnt enough.  Havent read the docs yet, but that's what's hitting Bloomberg.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think that's an entirely reasonable policy so long as there arent any unintended readthroughs that I'm not considering.



I'd be curious if there are other situations where if you didn't get a certain vaccine that is "required" where they don't cover those health costs.   

I'm all for it personally.  Why should I have to pay a higher premium because someone thinks there is a microchip in the shot got Covid and cost the insurance company a ton of money.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's interesting to read all these New England takes that in your states most people aren't wearing masks.  Here in New Jersey it's still gotta' be >= 50% of people still wearing masks.


Just hanging with some Jersey friends this weekend and they did wear their masks on and off all weekend. Went to see Yonder Mtn String Band and maybe 15 or so people I saw had masks on. Workers at businesses were but not really the public.


----------



## abc (Oct 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I actually don't mind wearing it on a subway..probably would have been a good idea..even before covid!


Definitely a good idea in flu season. 

But I really can't find any mask that are even remotely comfortable to wear. (I have a very low nose bridge, narrow sinus passages too. So my sinus acts up when I had a mask on for longer than say 15 minutes)


----------



## abc (Oct 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not pointless if self-esteem boosting virtue-signaling is your aim.


I believe that applies more to the non-mask wearer when mask is required.


----------



## abc (Oct 12, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'd be curious if there are other situations where if you didn't get a certain vaccine that is "required" where they don't cover those health costs.
> 
> I'm all for it personally.  Why should I have to pay a higher premium because someone thinks there is a microchip in the shot got Covid and cost the insurance company a ton of money.


I don't think it's going to work that way though. The legal bill from all the challenges will cost a lot more than the additional premium!

But it's entirely possible to offer a "vaccine discount" for the new policy year, at the next policy renewal time (which is typically just about now). Basically, the unvaccinated gets a higher yearly increase as "standard", while the vaccinated gets a smaller increase ("vaccine discount applied")


----------



## drjeff (Oct 12, 2021)

abc said:


> I believe that applies more to the non-mask wearer when mask is required.


Pretty sure the virtue signaling goes both ways depending on the circumstance


----------



## boston_e (Oct 12, 2021)

abc said:


> I believe that applies more to the non-mask wearer when mask is required.


100% this.


----------



## EastCoastScott (Oct 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> another false equivalency.
> 
> a classroom with 25 unvaccinated kids in close proximity for 7 hours a day 5 days a week is not the same thing as a stadium full of vaccinated adults for 3 hours 1 day, especially an outdoor one.


Not all the sporting events or concerts require vaccination or a negative test.  Actually, the majority of them do not.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 13, 2021)

cool. its still a stupid comparison vs completely unvaccinated elementary school aged kids in classrooms.


----------



## EastCoastScott (Oct 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> cool. its still a stupid comparison vs completely unvaccinated elementary school aged kids in classrooms.


Oh, I agree.  Kids don't have to worry about dying.


----------



## urungus (Oct 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Oh, I agree.  Kids don't have to worry about dying.











						She buried her 10-year-old who died from Covid. Less than 24 hours later, she was combating misinformation at a school board meeting
					

On Sunday, Nicole Sperry said her final goodbyes to her 10-year-old daughter, who died from Covid-19. Less than 24 hours later, she was behind a podium combating misinformation from parents at a Virginia school board meeting.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## EastCoastScott (Oct 13, 2021)

urungus said:


> She buried her 10-year-old who died from Covid. Less than 24 hours later, she was combating misinformation at a school board meeting
> 
> 
> On Sunday, Nicole Sperry said her final goodbyes to her 10-year-old daughter, who died from Covid-19. Less than 24 hours later, she was behind a podium combating misinformation from parents at a Virginia school board meeting.
> ...


Yes, and according to the CDC more children died from the flu.  My point is the number is so low that we don't change our lifestyles from it.


----------



## abc (Oct 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Yes, and according to the CDC more children died from the flu.


Do we mandate kids to get vaccinated against flu?


----------



## kingslug (Oct 14, 2021)

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article253976318.html


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 14, 2021)

Not sure where to drop this, and its hardly skiing related, BUT...

the NHL is down to only 4 players that are unvaccinated.  That's pretty amazing if you ask me.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but by an large the NHL is a "younger" league than most of the other major sports league.  Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 14, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Not sure where to drop this, and its hardly skiing related, BUT...
> 
> the NHL is down to only 4 players that are unvaccinated.  That's pretty amazing if you ask me.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but by an large the NHL is a "younger" league than most of the other major sports league.  Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.


Most are from Canada May have more to do with it


----------



## drjeff (Oct 14, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Not sure where to drop this, and its hardly skiing related, BUT...
> 
> the NHL is down to only 4 players that are unvaccinated.  That's pretty amazing if you ask me.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but by an large the NHL is a "younger" league than most of the other major sports league.  Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.



Probably a multitude of factors behind this. #1 let's be honest, the NHL has a lot less overall "prima donna's" than most other major sports leagues. 
#2 the racial make up of the majority of the NHL has far less groups who may have historical based demographical reasons to not fear vaccines #3 The regular US/Canadaian travels.... And there's probably a few others that some will chime in on in this thread as well


----------



## boston_e (Oct 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Probably a multitude of factors behind this. #1 let's be honest, the NHL has a lot less overall "prima donna's" than most other major sports leagues.
> #2 the racial make up of the majority of the NHL has far less groups who may have historical based demographical reasons to not fear vaccines #3 The regular US/Canadaian travels.... And there's probably a few others that some will chime in on in this thread as well



#4: A higher percentage of players not from the US whose opinions on the vaccine have not been jaded by crazy-right-wing-antivax-conspiracy-theory talk that is so prevalent in the USA.


----------



## boston_e (Oct 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Do we mandate kids to get vaccinated against flu?


In Massachusetts at least, for the last school year the Flu Shot was added to the list of required immunizations. I don't believe it is on it again for this current school year though.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 14, 2021)

boston_e said:


> #4: A higher percentage of players not from the US whose opinions on the vaccine have not been jaded by crazy-right-wing-antivax-conspiracy-theory talk that is so prevalent in the USA.


Hate to tell you but there’s more unvaccinated than just the crazy right wingers. Delineating everything as partisanship is one of the reasons the country is such a mess today.


----------



## boston_e (Oct 14, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Hate to tell you but there’s more unvaccinated than just the crazy right wingers. Delineating everything as partisanship is one of the reasons the country is such a mess today.


Sure it is not exclusively right wing going unvaccinated, but it is also a fact that a much greater percentage of people identifying as republicans are un-vaccinated than democrats.  It is also primarily conservative news outlets and conservative talk show hosts and conservative social media that is spreading anti-vax misinformation.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 14, 2021)

yea this both sides shit is fucking nonsense. yes, there is a problem with minority communities that typically vote democrat having vaccine hesitancy due to a pretty well founded distrust of the us government. that group pales in comparison in its size and scope compared to the entire right-wing conservative media complex who has made it their mission in life to sew seeds of disinformation and vaccine hesitancy to stick it to the libs. its fine tho, the more of them that drop dead the better.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 14, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Not sure where to drop this, and its hardly skiing related, BUT...
> 
> the NHL is down to only 4 players that are unvaccinated.  That's pretty amazing if you ask me.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but by an large the NHL is a "younger" league than most of the other major sports league.  Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.


 

David  Pastrnak said hockey players just want to play, w/ minimal shutdowns so it's the best thing for the NHL that everyone gets the Vacc asap....


----------



## abc (Oct 15, 2021)

What's the vaccination rate for the other sport leagues? Or are they not sharing it?


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 15, 2021)

abc said:


> What's the vaccination rate for the other sport leagues? Or are they not sharing it?


NFL and NBA are around 94-95 percent.  Not sure about MLB but it's probably pretty close


----------



## abc (Oct 15, 2021)

So it's all very high. Way higher than in the general public. And way higher than the benchmark of what the medical expert hope for herd immunity. 

I guess there's no politically motivated excuse/protest in the sports leagues?


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 15, 2021)

The protocols for unvaccinated players are pretty severe,  most probably don't want the distraction/circus.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 15, 2021)

unless you are kyrie and the earth is flat


----------



## snoseek (Oct 15, 2021)

I feel obligated to say FUCK KYRIE.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 15, 2021)

Who?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 15, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Who?


Kyrie Irving, NY Nets star and stupid fucking idiot.


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Kyrie Irving, NY Nets star and stupid fucking idiot.











						ATL Hawks Point Guard: 'Yes, The Vaccine Ended My Season. One Thousand Percent'
					

In the midst of the fallout between the NBA and Kyrie Irving, a former Atlanta Hawks point guard has now sounded the alarm on how the vaccine ultimately




					www.outkick.com
				




Legit side effects do exist, I and my wife are dealing with some although not severe but wondering about long term .

The part that's crazy is requiring people who had Covid to get the shot or loose your job .


----------



## drjeff (Oct 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Kyrie Irving, NY Nets star and stupid fucking idiot.


You mean the same NBA star who back during the BLM protests and he was pro BLM tgst that the media loved, and now that he took an anti Vax stand, and while it did ramble a bit, also had some rational points, the same media wants to cancel? Time for folks to seriously learn some critical thinking skills and not just fall prey to the media talking (heavy) narrative!


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 15, 2021)

The media shouldn’t give these irrelevant morons a platform in the first place but thats how they rake in the ratings.


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 15, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Hate to tell you but there’s more unvaccinated than just the crazy right wingers. Delineating everything as partisanship is one of the reasons the country is such a mess today.


Identity politics has made our culture so incredibly stupid.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 15, 2021)

My stupid fucking idiot comment was addressed at his flat-earth beliefs


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 15, 2021)

boston_e said:


> #4: A higher percentage of players not from the US whose opinions on the vaccine have not been jaded by crazy-right-wing-antivax-conspiracy-theory talk that is so prevalent in the USA.



Of the 736 total NHL players, only 4 are "not" vaccinated, and at least 3 of those are from Canada (1 remains unknown).

TL/DR: Apologies for bursting your CNN or MSNBC fueled "thirst" for crushing any opinion not far-left extremist.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 15, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Identity politics has made our culture so incredibly stupid.


Maybe by design (and campaign fundraising reasons?)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 15, 2021)

Looking forward to seeing the mix-and-match COVID19 vaccine data.  It looks like my hypothesis from a few months back that taking a combination of different vaccines will result in a better patent estate of morphological viral protection load than taking solely one vaccine, is likely going to come true.

 Secondarily, I'd like to shout out a big FU to board troll(s) who criticized me for even daring to (GASP) offer that opinion, as if even typing my thoughts on an obscure rarely trafficked messaging board was deadly irresponsible. ┌∩┐


----------



## urungus (Oct 16, 2021)

Are those sheds, I mean cabanas, that many reports installed last season going to be a permanent fixture on the landscape ?  Asking for a friend



@NY DirtBag


----------



## abc (Oct 16, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> my hypothesis from a few months back that taking a combination of different vaccines will result in a better patent estate of morphological viral protection load than taking solely one vaccine


"My hypothesis from a few months back" !

The British has been doing mix-n-match trials since early this year! Were you part of that trial design being "your hypothesis"???

Or a giant in a land of dwarfs?


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Maybe by design (and campaign fundraising reasons?)


I’m really reluctant to give em the credit for being so crafty but it sure does seem that way to me.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 17, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m really reluctant to give em the credit for being so crafty but it sure does seem that way to me.


The sooner you (and everyone else) understand basically 99.9% of our politicians are all about themselves and not society as a whole (and if one thinks THEIR politician isn't the problem- buy they actually are part of it) the better, then we actually might get some tangible change!!


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 18, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The sooner you (and everyone else) understand basically 99.9% of our politicians are all about themselves and not society as a whole (and if one thinks THEIR politician isn't the problem- buy they actually are part of it) the better, then we actually might get some tangible change!!


Me? I don’t do identity politics.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> My stupid fucking idiot comment was addressed at his flat-earth beliefs



With enough growth, I have hope that someday you become self-aware enough to realize that _"flat-earth beliefs"_ always structurally coincide with whatever you disagree with.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Oct 18, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> With enough growth, I have hope that someday you become self-aware enough to realize that _"flat-earth beliefs"_ always structurally coincide with whatever you disagree with.


Are you not familiar with Kyrie Irving or did you just feel like taking a shot at Kusty for no reason?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 18, 2021)

SenorQuesadilla said:


> Are you not familiar with Kyrie Irving or did you just feel like taking a shot at Kusty for no reason?



Interesting 7th message.  

I'm familiar with both, though I'm more familiar with Kusty's intolerance & visceral angry hatred for people expressed in written word.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 18, 2021)

lol. cool.

maybe you will have enough growth to become self aware enough that you're the most smarmy head up his own ass motherfucker on this forum.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 18, 2021)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> maybe you will have enough growth to become self aware enough that you're the most smarmy head up his own ass motherfucker on this forum.



The prosecution rests, no further witnesses are required.


----------



## abc (Oct 19, 2021)

Pot...Kettle!


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 19, 2021)

abc said:


> Pot...Kettle!



The difference is that Benedict often uses facts.  Kusty is content with just ad hominems.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Oct 19, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The difference is that Benedict often uses facts.  Kusty is content with just ad hominems.


Kusty posts that he thinks Kyrie Irving is an idiot because he has believed that the earth isn't a sphere (not hyperbole). He then gets this as a response to that post  


BenedictGomez said:


> With enough growth, I have hope that someday you become self-aware enough to realize that _"flat-earth beliefs"_ always structurally coincide with whatever you disagree with.


and your response to ABC's pot meet kettle is that Benedict often uses fact while Kusty doesn't. OK.


----------



## skiur (Oct 19, 2021)

SenorQuesadilla said:


> Kusty posts that he thinks Kyrie Irving is an idiot because he has believed that the earth isn't a sphere (not hyperbole). He then gets this as a response to that post
> 
> and your response to ABC's pot meet kettle is that Benedict often uses fact while Kusty doesn't. OK.


Wait a second.....are you guys saying that the earth is not flat????


----------



## boston_e (Oct 19, 2021)

If the earth is flat, why do we need chairlifts?


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 19, 2021)

boston_e said:


> If the earth is flat, why do we need chairlifts?


Checkmate flat earthers


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 19, 2021)

And this how we know the earth to be banana shaped...


----------



## NYDB (Oct 19, 2021)

Its called sea level, not sea round.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Oct 19, 2021)

skiur said:


> Wait a second.....are you guys saying that the earth is not flat????


Of course not, because that would clearly mean we have not yet


BenedictGomez said:


> become self-aware enough to realize that _"flat-earth beliefs"_ always structurally coincide with whatever you disagree with.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2021)

Not sure what thread we discussed this but…









						A Florida restaurant chain says staff got bigger tips after it hired a $1,000-a-month robot to carry plates
					

The Servi robot gives Sergio's Restaurant staff more time to serve and talk to customers, the owner and CEO told The NYT.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## abc (Oct 19, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure what thread we discussed this but…


I wish people would start new threads instead of piling the kitchen sink into one giant thread!

Can anyone remind me why we even have this forum? Why don’t we just pile everything into a jumbo in Facebook?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 20, 2021)

abc said:


> I wish people would start new threads instead of piling the kitchen sink into one giant thread!
> 
> Can anyone remind me why we even have this forum? Why don’t we just pile everything into a jumbo in Facebook?


Actually it was this thread that you spoke about not needing wait staff. So you are part of the problem as well.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 20, 2021)

abc said:


> I wish people would start new threads instead of piling the kitchen sink into one giant thread!
> 
> Can anyone remind me why we even have this forum? Why don’t we just pile everything into a jumbo in Facebook?


Back on topic.

The Delta spike is trending down over the vast majority of the country now

There is a ton of confusion over boosters as to the who, what, where, when and why(if)?

Ski area operators plan on loading most, if not all lifts at capacity

Staffing is going to be an issue this season

There are some people who have been, and will continue to live their lives normally, whereas there are others, unfortunately, who may choose to never live their lives in a way that was "normal" for them 2 years ago


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 20, 2021)

great Summary Dr jeff

I've been for the most part back to normal.  I still haven't seen an indoor concert yet, but have been to numerous outside.  

I will get a booster when its time in hopes that I can continue to live as normally as possible.  if that means masks, then so be it.  

Flying to FL tonight through Monday to visit my son at college and spend some time on a beach.  its still summer down there


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Staffing is going to be an issue this season



Based on what I am seeing in Vermont, this has the potential to be a HUGE problem this year.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 20, 2021)

We went to our first movie since covid because a transformer explosion took out our electricity for a number of hours the other day. We didn’t need to worry about covid because the entire theatre was me, my girlfriend, and one other patron. Apparently the Addams Family 2 cartoon is not such a hot ticket at 9 PM on a weeknight in Brooklyn. Got home and power was restored.


----------



## Edd (Oct 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Back on topic.
> 
> The Delta spike is trending down over the vast majority of the country now
> 
> ...


We’re good friends with a couple that used to go out regularly, but were always agoraphobe-curious at least. Since COVID, they’ve secured mostly WFH status and getting them to go out even a couple of miles from their place is futile, unless it’s outdoors which most things aren’t. Like, they’ve pondered if the gas in one of their cars might go bad because it’s used so infrequently. I think there’s no going back for them. It’s just what they’ve always wanted to do anyway. Disappointing for me but it’s their life.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 20, 2021)

We paused with indoor dining and concerts for about 4-6 weeks when Delta was starting to take off.  Basically early August until Mid-September.  I had resumed both in March when I was fully vaccinated and my wife in May.  

Now back to 100% return to normal.  Things seem to be mostly calming down in our area.


----------



## boston_e (Oct 20, 2021)

I think any talk about people not living their lives normally is mostly talk at this point.  I can't say I really know anybody who isn't more or less living their life as "normal"... apart from a few things that are still in place such as perhaps wearing a mask in stores etc when requested or perhaps working from home has become more of a thing.  My parents who are  78 and 81 are perhaps a bit more selective about when / where they go out to eat and are generally more careful in general but that's about it.

Anything that is not "normal" at this point is more due to societies circumstances... supply chain issues or worker shortage issues etc.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There are some people who have been, and will continue to live their lives normally, whereas there are others, unfortunately, who *may choose to never live their lives in a way that was "normal" for them 2 years ago*



I'm beginning to see this now that we're falling away from reasons to continue on in panic provided you dont have a medical issue/reason.  I dont know if it's ignorance, mental trauma from this situation we've found ourselves in, or if on some weird level it excites them.  I'm thinking mostly ignorance, but I do find it genuinely sad.


----------



## abc (Oct 20, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I think any talk about people not living their lives normally is mostly talk at this point.  I can't say I really know anybody who isn't more or less living their life as "normal"... apart from a few things that are still in place such as perhaps wearing a mask in stores etc when requested or perhaps working from home has become more of a thing.  My parents who are  78 and 81 are perhaps a bit more selective about when / where they go out to eat and are generally more careful in general but that's about it.
> 
> Anything that is not "normal" at this point is more due to societies circumstances... supply chain issues or worker shortage issues etc.





Edd said:


> We’re good friends with a couple that used to go out regularly, but were always agoraphobe-curious at least. Since COVID, they’ve secured mostly WFH status and getting them to go out even a couple of miles from their place is futile, unless it’s outdoors which most things aren’t. Like, they’ve pondered if the gas in one of their cars might go bad because it’s used so infrequently. I think there’s no going back for them. It’s just what they’ve always wanted to do anyway. Disappointing for me but it’s their life.


I think that pretty much round it all up. 

Some people never care for big crowds. They go because it’s the ”in“ thing. You can count me as one such. So now, with increased risk, I‘m more than happy to cut out one thing I never really care very much even pre-pandemic. 

The other things I haven’t resume doing, are all the indoor stuff that requires mask. I’m not anti-mask. I’m just not comfortable wearing a mask. I can tolerate it for 30 minutes in the doctor’s office. But that’s only because I had to. For entertainment? Mask and entertainment just doesn’t go together for me! 

I never like crowded subways. But I did it years and years because it‘s the only way to get around in NYC. Still never really like it. I’m going to delay using it for as long as I possibly can. On the other hand, I’ve taken the commuter rail many, many times. I only wish I don’t have to keep my mask on for the hour long ride. 

For me, I will go back to “normal” when mask can be removed. That said, my ”new normal” probably has far less time spent in crowded indoor places. (I don’t exactly qualify as a “phobia”, but I avoid crowds whenever I can even before the pandemic)


----------



## ss20 (Oct 20, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm beginning to see this now that we're falling away from reasons to continue on in panic provided you dont have a medical issue/reason.  I dont know if it's ignorance, mental trauma from this situation we've found ourselves in, or if on some weird level it excites them.  I'm thinking mostly ignorance, but I do find it genuinely sad.



My father (in good health, relatively young at 65) still wears disposable gloves at the gas station....


----------



## abc (Oct 20, 2021)

ss20 said:


> My father (in good health, relatively young at 65) still wears disposable gloves at the gas station....


It's not a bad idea. 

It's either wash hands after pumping gas, or wear gloves. It's not just Covid. Who knows what the person before you had touched before they pump gas?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2021)

pretty much back to normal in my private life. Going to shows, restaurants, out shopping and never wear masks. At work I have no choice working in hospitals I have to wear a mask and may forever going forward if it is mandated by them or not.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 21, 2021)

Wearing a mask..on a ladder..with glasses on..not doing it..Im out in 2 months so no more worries about that..dangerouse as hell..the mask with glasses on screws up your vision and depth perception.


----------



## boston_e (Oct 21, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Wearing a mask..on a ladder..with glasses on..not doing it..Im out in 2 months so no more worries about that..dangerouse as hell..the mask with glasses on screws up your vision and depth perception.


That is a challenge for sure - needing safety glasses plus a mask is challenging - i have not found a good way yet to make the glasses not fog up.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> That is a challenge for sure - needing safety glasses plus a mask is challenging - i have not found a good way yet to make the glasses not fog up.


I wear my glasses, safety glasses and a respirator for my job. It is difficult, and there is basically no way to eliminate the fog.


----------



## abc (Oct 21, 2021)

At work, I do what it's needed for safety. I'm now working at a desk. But there was a time I had to wear all sort of protective gear. It's never exactly comfortable. But it's work. I managed. Besides, I got paid, to do thing I may not exactly like!

But for recreation? Watching a show/concert for 3 hours wearing a mask that aren't comfortable? I'd rather not. (there're of course exceptions. I wore mask for short period say, on the chair lift, elevator of hotels, etc. But not for the entire duration of my time there like in a concert)

I honestly don't have anything against masks. Not in theory anyway. But that's until I wore them for extended period of time. That's when I realize I just can't get comfortable with the thing. So I don't want to do anything that requires me to wear a mask for extended period of time that's *not paying me*.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 21, 2021)

Honestly, the PPE recomendations in my line of work in my home state have been relaxed at bit. 

Don't need to wear my face shield any more (definitely helps with dealing with fogging of my work glasses and their maginification lenses for sure with the shield gone!). Option, to wear a level 3 surgical mask instead of an N95 respirator - that has actually been inplace for over a year. Don't need to wear full head covering, and it's even now a bit of a gray area if we need to wear full surgical gowns anymore - clearly stated for those treating active COVID patients, whic more often applies to hospital based practitioners.

The reality is, that there have been some COVID positive patients who I have treated, folks who found out AFTER they had been to my office, not before, and my entire staff has been safe.  The reality is it seems that for the vast majority of folks, what it takes to contract COVID is extended exposure in small(er) generally poorly ventilated areas.  And frankly the majority of data from things like grocery shopping (or shopping in any retail location with a sizable square footage and higher ceilings and ventilation, to large outdoor gatherings, backs this up. Sure there are some occasional cases that happen in those settings, however the reality is that those are the outliers and not the norm.

The reality is that for the overwhelming majority of society (both those vaccinated or with naturally acquire antibodies as well as a good chunk of the unvaccinated still) you can safely live your life as normal now.  Again as I said yesterday, there will be some for whatever personal reasons, who may choose to "never" live their lives as normal again, and that is there own choice, and in some instances, that is a sad thing for themselves


----------



## abc (Oct 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> it seems that for the vast majority of folks, what it takes to contract COVID is extended exposure in small(er) generally poorly ventilated areas.


Or you got unlucky to be sharing air with a super spreader!

Remember the guy in New Rochelle? He infected his neighbor who drove him to the hospital! How long does that drive last?


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2021)

abc said:


> It's not a bad idea.
> 
> It's either wash hands after pumping gas, or wear gloves. It's not just Covid. Who knows what the person before you had touched before they pump gas?


Bonus - Our town has a 100 year old law stating NO SELF SERVE GAS


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly, the PPE recomendations in my line of work in my home state have been relaxed at bit.
> 
> Don't need to wear my face shield any more (definitely helps with dealing with fogging of my work glasses and their maginification lenses for sure with the shield gone!). Option, to wear a level 3 surgical mask instead of an N95 respirator - that has actually been inplace for over a year. Don't need to wear full head covering, and it's even now a bit of a gray area if we need to wear full surgical gowns anymore - clearly stated for those treating active COVID patients, whic more often applies to hospital based practitioners.
> 
> ...


Similar here in Boston, But we see almost 1,000 Pts/day so it's still Full PPE for us. 
Yes, hate the shield over my loupes


----------



## drjeff (Oct 21, 2021)

abc said:


> Or you got unlucky to be sharing air with a super spreader!
> 
> Remember the guy in New Rochelle? He infected his neighbor who drove him to the hospital! How long does that drive last?



Pretty sure that a car is a small space, and about the time of the New Rochelle outbreak as I recall it was late Winter/early Spring, so the car windows were likely closed thus making it a small space with poor/limited ventilation.

Add in that if one is driving someone else to the hospital with significant enough symptoms to make them want to go to the hospital in the first place, odds are their active viral load was high.  

Not sure even with a brand new, fit checked N95 respirator on in that scenario that I'd want to be in that car myself 

The patients in my office whom we later found out were likely positive while they were in my office when they called to notify us, all to my knowledge had at worst very minimal symptoms, if any at all. And all had passed health screening checks including temperature prior to entering my office that day. So chances are their active viral load wasn't very great. Add in an open, airy environment that my office is, along with the 3 air purification units we have that have the ability (or atleast per the manufacturers rep the ability) to filter the entire volume of air inside my office every 3 minutes, so that New Rochelle car situation isn't an apples to apples comparison situation.


----------



## abc (Oct 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> that New Rochelle car situation isn't an apples to apples comparison situation.


It may not be comparable to your office. But how many other indoor space has what you have in your office "_*open, airy environment* that my office is, along with the *3 air purification units *we have that have the ability (or atleast per the manufacturers rep the ability) to *filter the entire volume of air inside my office every 3 minute*s_"???

Did you have three air purification units before the pandemic?


----------



## PAabe (Oct 22, 2021)

I feel like HVAC improvements/airflow/fresh air have been hugely overlooked and not implemented these past 1.5 years which possibly could be far more effictive than certain other measures being taken.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 22, 2021)

abc said:


> It may not be comparable to your office. But how many other indoor space has what you have in your office "_*open, airy environment* that my office is, along with the *3 air purification units *we have that have the ability (or atleast per the manufacturers rep the ability) to *filter the entire volume of air inside my office every 3 minute*s_"???
> 
> Did you have three air purification units before the pandemic?


Actually we had our 2 main (big) air purification units since 2018. Added a 3rd, smaller one for what basically amounts to a "dead end peninsula" wing of my office as the world wide COVID reality started ramping up in January 2020, about 2 months before the stay at home directives went into place.

So while an extra air purification unit was added in my office at the start of COVID, the majority of our system had been in place long before anyone (except maybe for a few folks working in the Wuhan Institute of Virology ) knew what Sars Cov-19 was


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2021)

abc said:


> At work, I do what it's needed for safety. I'm now working at a desk. But there was a time I had to wear all sort of protective gear. It's never exactly comfortable. But it's work. I managed. Besides, I got paid, to do thing I may not exactly like!
> 
> But for recreation? Watching a show/concert for 3 hours wearing a mask that aren't comfortable? I'd rather not. (there're of course exceptions. I wore mask for short period say, on the chair lift, elevator of hotels, etc. But not for the entire duration of my time there like in a concert)
> 
> I honestly don't have anything against masks. Not in theory anyway. But that's until I wore them for extended period of time. That's when I realize I just can't get comfortable with the thing. So I don't want to do anything that requires me to wear a mask for extended period of time that's *not paying me*.



So no plane rides?


----------



## abc (Oct 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> So no plane rides?


I don't have a problem with a short plane ride per se. But am hesitant on long ones, mostly due to comfort level with a mask. So the 12 hour flight to Japan or even the 6 hour to Europe or California will be out. Denver at 4+ hr is really borderline. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about even that one.

To be more specific for this winter, I'm not getting on a plane. And that's got nothing to do with Covid safety or mask comfort level though. It's the uncertainty of flight scheduling. I've heard many, many story of flights got cancelled due to labor shortage (pilot, crew).

Instead, I'll simply drive to ski.

I've got a lot of vacation days carried over from last year and probably to next year. Between that and the "new normal" of working remotely being more tolerated, I'll be able to at least make it to Colorado without getting on a plane, easy! I may even be able to stretch it to Whistler! If not, possibly to Tahoe.

With skiing taken care of, I don't have to think about plane ride just yet.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2021)

I'm generally not bothered by wearing masks.  But coming home from California last week spending 9 hours straight wearing one other than while eating did rather suck.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm generally not bothered by wearing masks.  But coming home from California last week spending 9 hours straight wearing one other than while eating did rather suck.


After having to wear an N95 40 hours/week for the last 1 1/2 years, air travel is no poblem w/ a regular mask.
Just brooked a Nov.  St Thomas/St John/BVI's trip. Can't wait


----------



## Edd (Oct 22, 2021)

I think wearing a mask at work is irritating the skin on my face. It’s subtle, but consistent. With the breaks I take during the day, I’m wearing it >10 hours/day. Still hoping against hope they get rid of them but, in the pharmaceutical industry, things are more uptight than other businesses.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I feel like HVAC improvements/airflow/fresh air have been hugely overlooked and not implemented these past 1.5 years which possibly could be far more effictive than certain other measures being taken.



Yeah, there have been some studies on this trying to put some quantification on it, but needless to say HVAC & airflow are very effective mitigatory measures.  For probably the most obvious example of this, think about how successful jet airplanes have been.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, there have been some studies on this trying to put some quantification on it, but needless to say HVAC & airflow are very effective mitigatory measures.  For probably the most obvious example of this, think about how successful jet airplanes have been.


Or outdoor stadiums full of 10's of thousands of people the past few months.....

Let alone the entire ski industry and the actual act of skiing/riding and lift usage all of last season.....

Makes any sane person wonder why you still actually see people outside for say a walk/run or a bike ride wearing masks?  But I am quite sure the fear mongering media loves every one of those people who refuse to actually look at the data rather than just watch CNN/MSNBC/CBS/ABC/NBC or read the NY Times/Washington post/The Atlantic/etc


----------



## abc (Oct 24, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Makes any sane person wonder why you still actually see people outside for say a walk/run or a bike ride wearing masks?


I can think of plenty of reason why people wear masks outdoors. The hassle of having to fuss with putting them back on for every shop one enters within 30 second after taking the mask off being one I can identify with!

Is that insane? 

Or can you say the same about every skier who kept their mask  on or hanging on their chin  while skiing down last season? That’s about half of the people from what I saw. 

Is that insane? 

Or are the people who had the time to wonder about their sanity just plain bored (or worse)?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2021)

abc said:


> I can think of plenty of reason why people wear masks outdoors. The hassle of having to fuss with putting them back on for every shop one enters within 30 second after taking the mask off being one I can identify with!
> 
> Is that insane?
> 
> ...


plenty equals 1?

ever try putting a mask on or taking it all the way off with a helmet and gloves on. That is why they leave it on or part way on.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 24, 2021)

abc said:


> I can think of plenty of reason why people wear masks outdoors. The hassle of having to fuss with putting them back on for every shop one enters within 30 second after taking the mask off being one I can identify with!
> 
> Is that insane?
> 
> ...


Theres a big difference between wearing your mask on a city street when you’re popping in and out of shops and wearing a mask to mow your lawn or go for a walk. I live right by the ADKs and the amount of people who wear a mask hiking or on a boat is still significant. Which in my opinion is borderline insane if you follow any data.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 24, 2021)

not too many masks in Gillette Stadium this afternoon.

Pretty sure that riding a full chair for all but those with so many co-morbities that they're probably not riding a chairlift anyway won't be an issue this coming season

Go Pats! (And sorry Jets fans )


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2021)

drjeff said:


> View attachment 52022not too many masks in Gillette Stadium this afternoon.
> 
> Pretty sure that riding a full chair for all but those with so many co-morbities that they're probably not riding a chairlift anyway.
> 
> Go Pats! (And sorry Jets fans )


Sorry jet fans for the last 50+ years


----------



## kbroderick (Oct 24, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Theres a big difference between wearing your mask on a city street when you’re popping in and out of shops and wearing a mask to mow your lawn or go for a walk. I live right by the ADKs and the amount of people who wear a mask hiking or on a boat is still significant. Which in my opinion is borderline insane if you follow any data.


I'll be wearing one of my better cloth masks mowing the lawn from here on out. Not particularly concerned about the grass giving me covid (duh), but there's a huge difference for me in allergy symptoms afterwards (or lack thereof wearing a mask).

I'm also of the mind that the data suggests that as a vaccinated individual, my risk in brief encounters indoors is limited at most and a cloth or surgical mask isn't changing much, but my wife feels like there's a worthwhile benefit, and wearing a mask into the store is far, far easier than fighting that battle.


----------



## djd66 (Oct 24, 2021)

If you want to wear a mask outside,… go for it!  For me, it’s just plain stupid. I’m vax’d and will wear one where it’s require - BUT, hopefully, we will not go back to masked outside at the ski areas.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 24, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Theres a big difference between wearing your mask on a city street when you’re popping in and out of shops and wearing a mask to mow your lawn or go for a walk. I live right by the ADKs and the amount of people who wear a mask hiking or on a boat is still significant. Which in my opinion is borderline insane if you follow any data.



Just got back from spending a week in the Finger Lakes on vacation. The number of people wearing a mask while hiking in the state parks I visited was certainly a little surprising.


----------



## abc (Oct 24, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I'll be wearing one of my better cloth masks mowing the lawn from here on out. Not particularly concerned about the grass giving me covid (duh), but there's a huge difference for me in allergy symptoms afterwards (or lack thereof wearing a mask).


+1

As much as I dislike wearing mask for extended period of time, I also suffer from seasonal allergy. Last year was the first time I tried hiking/biking with a mask during the peak of the allergy season. Before mask wearing was acceptable, I took pills to control my symptoms. With mask widely accepted, I tried it. It's trading one devil with another. And I actually like the mask better than drugs. 

In the "new normal" post-pandemic, I was hoping mask wearing will be accepted as an individual choice. However, judging from the judgmental posts I'm seeing here, I'm afraid it won't last. Mask will NOT be tolerated once the pandemic is declared "over". Baby will be thrown out with the bath water, per usual.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 25, 2021)

Depends where you are....

Mask wearing has been very visible for Boston's Chinatown since Avian Flu in 2008/9...

I don't know if it will ever go away 100% in places like Chinatown


----------



## skiur (Oct 25, 2021)

I don't understand why people care if someone has a mask on?  I personally hate wearing a mask and since getting fully vaccinated in the spring rarely have had one on, but if someone else has one on, who cares.  Why would I care if you want to wear a mask?  I don't like to wear hats either but again someone else wearing one has absolutely 0% effect on my life.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 25, 2021)

skiur said:


> I don't understand why people care if someone has a mask on?  I personally hate wearing a mask and since getting fully vaccinated in the spring rarely have had one on, but if someone else has one on, who cares.  Why would I care if you want to wear a mask?  I don't like to wear hats either but again someone else wearing one has absolutely 0% effect on my life.


I'm with you it's non issue, petty and small minded to judge. I'll forever fly with one going forward and if somebody doesn't like it they can get fucked.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 25, 2021)

You have to wear a mask at the Stamford dump...its outside....


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 25, 2021)

I was in Boston today in several different neighborhoods and I'd say the outdoor mask wearing is still about 60%


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I was in Boston today in several different neighborhoods and I'd say the outdoor mask wearing is still about 60%


Agreed. Our Boston condo bldg is 100% Vacc. (110 residents) and I'd say 60-75% are still wearing their masks.
 Downtown neighborhoods near Tufts, BMC, MGH and BI everyone is masked 24/7


----------



## mikec142 (Oct 26, 2021)

Maybe people have become more conscious of their dental issues...


----------



## djd66 (Oct 26, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Maybe people have become more conscious of their dental issues...


and bad breath


----------



## Edd (Oct 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Agreed. Our Boston condo bldg is 100% Vacc. (110 residents) and I'd say 60-75% are still wearing their masks.
> Downtown neighborhoods near Tufts, BMC, MGH and BI everyone is masked 24/7


A couple friends went to a Sunday night game at Fenway a few weeks ago. Stayed in a hotel. They said a ton of restaurants around there weren’t open and the area had a very dead feel. Surprised me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2021)

Likely staffing shortages


----------



## snoseek (Oct 26, 2021)

The staffing shortages will be the nail in the coffin for the restaurant industry. Was reading and article about the owner of the former craigie on main having enough and getting out. If I was an owner I would probably be rooting for a recession or at least economic slow down from where it is. Alot of places will be done at this pace in the coming months


----------



## drjeff (Oct 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> A couple friends went to a Sunday night game at Fenway a few weeks ago. Stayed in a hotel. They said a ton of restaurants around there weren’t open and the area had a very dead feel. Surprised me.



Staffing issues is the likely cause of that.  And very likely one that we will be seeing at/around some of our favorite ski areas this Winter as well unfortunately


----------



## Riverveteran (Oct 26, 2021)

Went to game #3 Sox and Astros, almost no masks, no Vaxx check, almost no mention of COVID

COVID is over...folks can't seem to get past it.


----------



## Edd (Oct 26, 2021)

Going to a show tonight in Portsmouth, NH and a vaccine card is required. First place around here I’ve seen with that rule.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Going to a show tonight in Portsmouth, NH and a vaccine card is required. First place around here I’ve seen with that rule.


At the new jazz place?


----------



## abc (Oct 26, 2021)

Riverveteran said:


> Went to game #3 Sox and Astros, almost no masks, no Vaxx check, almost no mention of COVID
> 
> COVID is over...folks can't seem to get past it.


What "folks"? 

Covid is over for those who're vaccinated. Those who aren't? They've already made up their mind to take their chances. It's their choice what to do with their body.

The hope to impose government "protection" over folks who don't want to be so protected is a losing battle. Covid is fast becoming the new prohibition or war on drugs. All those are government attempts to "protect" folks from whatever seemingly harmful behavior.


----------



## Edd (Oct 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> At the new jazz place?


Correct. I’d actually go for the red beans and rice alone .









						Jimmy's Jazz & Blues Club
					

Inspirational jazz and blues paired with fine cuisine, libations and a lively scene … all in a spectacularly restored local landmark.



					jimmysoncongress.com


----------



## thebigo (Oct 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Correct. I’d actually go for the red beans and rice alone .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that place new? Trying to picture what used to be there?


----------



## drjeff (Oct 26, 2021)

abc said:


> What "folks"?
> 
> Covid is over for those who're vaccinated. Those who aren't? They've already made up their mind to take their chances. It's their choice what to do with their body.
> 
> The hope to impose government "protection" over folks who don't want to be so protected is a losing battle. Covid is fast becoming the new prohibition or war on drugs. All those are government attempts to "protect" folks from whatever seemingly harmful behavior.



As I have said in the past, there's often a signficant difference in a society that has 100% access to something (the vaccine) verses a society that has 100% utilization of that thing.

And quite often the time, efforts, frustrations, and $$ spent by those with the often Utopian dream of 100% utilization ends up unless it is in a  military dictatorship style of government, with less than 100% utilization. That's just life in a free society


----------



## Edd (Oct 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Is that place new? Trying to picture what used to be there?


Yeah, opened in September. Same owners as Riverhouse in Portsmouth and Atlantic Grill in Rye. Going by the map it’s next to Friendly Toast but haven’t been yet.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 26, 2021)

I was at Jumpin Jay's on Saturady night.  Mavis Staples was playing at Jimmys.  Congress Street was busy.  Stanley Jordan of November 6th.  That will be a good show.

Portsmouth is pretty cool.  I go up there often.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 26, 2021)

I see people are still not yet ready to let this go.  I still don't care.  Fuck it.  I have to admit I have come full circle.  I find myself glad to see unvaxinated people learn the lesson the hard way and then say they should have got the vax.  Whatever.  It's all darwinianism at its best.  snow is going to fly soon and we will be skiing.  At this point it looks like Sugarbush will not be enforcing masks outside and the single line will be back.  So on topic no perminent industry change there.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 26, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Portsmouth is pretty cool.  I go up there often.



When I was an undergrad at UNH, portsmouth was awesome. It had an edge: the old hammer, the coat, state street, press room, even Gilleys. All great places and even better times but the grit is gone. We live about 15 minutes away and never even go down there anymore, the food and beer in Exeter and Dover are just as good now without the hassle. Even the smaller places more inland that used to be just pizza have improved.


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Likely staffing shortages


A lot of restaurants around Fenway went out of business last spring when the shutdowns happened


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I was at Jumpin Jay's on Saturady night.  Mavis Staples was playing at Jimmys.  Congress Street was busy.  Stanley Jordan of November 6th.  That will be a good show.
> 
> Portsmouth is pretty cool.  I go up there often.



That Stanley show will be great.  I'm friends with the drummer Kenwood Dennard.  He hosted a party recently at his home with the same trio playing that I was lucky to attend.  Fantastic group.  If I didn't have plans already on 11/6, I'd be at that show.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> That Stanley show will be great.  I'm friends with the drummer Kenwood Dennard.  He hosted a party recently at his home with the same trio playing that I was lucky to attend.  Fantastic group.  If I didn't have plans already on 11/6, I'd be at that show.


We might be skiing but who knows.  You are friends with Ken Dennard?   He is legit.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Yeah, opened in September. Same owners as Riverhouse in Portsmouth and Atlantic Grill in Rye. Going by the map it’s next to Friendly Toast but haven’t been yet.


I know a couple people that work over there and apparently they dumped some serious money into the place. I need to check it out soon but I do avoid portsmouth as stated above. Everyone I know left that town years ago and its just a different crowd.


----------



## Hawk (Oct 26, 2021)

Maybe it's time to try the new crowd out.  I have had a blast the handful of times I went there this year.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 26, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Maybe it's time to try the new crowd out.  I have had a blast the handful of times I went there this year.


It's cool but nawww I worked in town for years it's just not the same. It's always been pricey but now all the cool kids are priced out and replaced with out of state $$$$$. It's is still a fun time for sure


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 26, 2021)

Nobody goes there anymore it’s too crowded.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2021)

Hawk said:


> We might be skiing but who knows.  You are friends with Ken Dennard?   He is legit.



Yes.  Great guy.  Just retired from teaching at Berkeley, so he will be playing around much more frequently.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It's cool but nawww I worked in town for years it's just not the same. It's always been pricey but now all the cool kids are priced out and replaced with out of state $$$$$. It's is still a fun time for sure



For sure Portsmouth has changed a LOT in our 14 years on the Seacoast.  Taken over by retired boomers with big money and the town has become totally gentrified.   Same could be said for Portland, but not quite as bad there from an affordability standpoint.  It still has a more mixed income population.


----------



## Edd (Oct 26, 2021)

There’s a couple of micro-apartment projects going in Portsmouth along with other types of new housing. There’ll never be enough though, it’s not exactly spacious. The micro-apartment thing MAY alleviate some staffing shortages but it could also be sucked up by folks with $ willing to live very small.


----------



## machski (Oct 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Going to a show tonight in Portsmouth, NH and a vaccine card is required. First place around here I’ve seen with that rule.


Music Hall same way, going for WME's Winter Starts Now next month.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2021)

Boston tonight has had me reach my breaking point on Covid.  I work in healthcare. I have professionally lived through some of the saddest shit with this pandemic from the start.  Consulting and selling hospitals on what they need  equipment wise to manage care for these patients. 

It is mask up EVERYWHERE in this city still.  We were in the tiniest of spaces for a cocktail reception tonight with emergency ED docs.  Docs from Mass Gen, Brigham, Mt Sinai, NY Presbyterian, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Kaiser, John's Hopkins.  ALL of the biggest players.  Tiny space with no social distancing possible.  BUT!?!, If you had to walk to the bathroom  15 feet through the lobby to get to the bathroom, you were told to mask up.  Total no possibility of social distancing super spreader event.

 Riding in Ubers around town even with plastic barriers between  driver and passengers, "please put your mask on ".  All common areas of the hotel, please put your mask on, but by all means take it off and pack into our bar. 

I'll still put my six year old with his mask on to take  his bus to school on Thursday.  I will vaccinate him when approved.  I plan on getting a booster for myself as does my wife. 

But enough is enough.  Time to move on.


----------



## Zand (Oct 26, 2021)

A local town posted on Facebook in regards to Hallowern/Trick or Treat:

"The safest way to celebrate this Halloween is to stay home. If you must go out, please wear a facial covering even if wearing a costume mask, and keep socially distanced. Be sure to use hand sanitizer frequently and wash your hands immediately upon returning home."

I thought I accidentally found an old post from April 2020 with that rherotic. I swear this thing has made some people mentally ill from fear overtaking their thinking methods.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 26, 2021)

Zand said:


> A local town posted on Facebook in regards to Hallowern/Trick or Treat:
> 
> "The safest way to celebrate this Halloween is to stay home. If you must go out, please wear a facial covering even if wearing a costume mask, and keep socially distanced. Be sure to use hand sanitizer frequently and wash your hands immediately upon returning home."
> 
> I thought I accidentally found an old post from April 2020 with that rherotic. I swear this thing has made some people mentally ill from fear overtaking their thinking methods.



yeah kids coming to the outside door for 10 seconds getting candy...I'm shaking in fear...


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 27, 2021)

Zand said:


> I swear this thing has made some people mentally ill from fear overtaking their thinking methods.


Psychosis induced from watching too much news


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 27, 2021)

I read that depression is up to 40% across the board.


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Boston tonight has had me reach my breaking point on Covid.  I work in healthcare. I have professionally lived through some of the saddest shit with this pandemic from the start.  Consulting and selling hospitals on what they need  equipment wise to manage care for these patients.
> 
> It is mask up EVERYWHERE in this city still.  We were in the tiniest of spaces for a cocktail reception tonight with emergency ED docs.  Docs from Mass Gen, Brigham, Mt Sinai, NY Presbyterian, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Kaiser, John's Hopkins.  ALL of the biggest players.  Tiny space with no social distancing possible.  BUT!?!, If you had to walk to the bathroom  15 feet through the lobby to get to the bathroom, you were told to mask up.  Total no possibility of social distancing super spreader event.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm totally fine with anything to keep people safe, but stuff like this makes little sense. I guess the logic is, if you cough on the people you came with, it's on you all, but if you cough on someone on the way to the bathroom, that's not good?

On the other hand, i don't really care that much and it probably will cut down on cold transmissions too....


----------



## drjeff (Oct 27, 2021)

I kind of shrug my shoulders when in my office, we have to have the patients wear a mask from when they enter the building for the at most 50 feet it is to our furthest treatment rooms from the front door, then they have their masks off the entire time we're working on them with air/water squirting in their mouths, and then they have to put their masks back on for the at most 50 feet until they leave the building, all because that is what the state dept of health says,

Makes about as much logical sense as the masks on to/from the host/hostess stand in a restaurant to one's table and on their way out as well.

Truthfully I just say to my patients that the sceince behind this current mandate makes no logical sense, however in no way to I want to face a potential fine from the dept of public health should they spot check my office for compliance, which is something that has happened to a few offices in my general area.

Unfortunately it seems like the old mantra of "follow/trust the science" under so many circumstances left the bulding a while ago and has been replaced with "you must comply with what I say, and no questioning what I say is allowed"....


----------



## tumbler (Oct 27, 2021)

"out of an abundance of caution"


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2021)

Those making and implementing these decisions need to ask themselves, "Are we taking things too far such that we will erode the public's trust and risk reduced compliance in the future if /when another pandemic occurs?"

Yes, Delta was burning pretty hot in August through mid-late September, but the decline has been pretty significant in October.   I'm not sure that can be attributed to behavior improvement.  If anything, behavior has only worsened the past month as people move indoors due to cooler weather.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Those making and implementing these decisions need to ask themselves, "Are we taking things too far such that we will erode the public's trust and risk reduced compliance in the future if /when another pandemic occurs?"
> 
> Yes, Delta was burning pretty hot in August through mid-late September, but the decline has been pretty significant in October.   I'm not sure that can be attributed to behavior improvement.  If anything, behavior has only worsened the past month as people move indoors due to cooler weather.



The more likely reason behind the decline in Delta now, probably can be seen in the rates of infection in Countries that Delta spread through prior to the US.  If you take a look at say India, where Delta originated, the spike in the infection rates curve lasted about 3 months, which is pretty much where we are in this country now.

It comes on like gang busters, works it way through the population and then quickly tapers off as so many within the population who were susceptible prior to the arrival of Delta, were affected by it, and thus the odds of them being affected by it again, while not zero, become really, really low, and the spike ends.

If one looks at the various spikes in COVID, regardless of the variant, they tend to be in the 3 to 4 months window of duration


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2021)

Will be interesting to see if Delta is the last variant that causes a spike.  I have not read of post Delta spikes elsewhere globally yet


----------



## drjeff (Oct 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Will be interesting to see if Delta is the last variant that causes a spike.  I have not read of post Delta spikes elsewhere globally yet



You hear some rumbles about the Mu variant as well as the "Delta Plus" (I believe that's what I read it was called) as being on the infectious disease folks radar, but nothing appears currently to be spiking.

At some point, if we haven't already reached on a world wide level the situation where the previous variants along with vaccines haven't affected a signofocant enough portion of the population to switch into endemic mode, that's going to happen.

The bigger question is will many in society be able to accept that any COVID infections is OK, since the truth is that we're never going to eliminate COVID from society, and there will always be a very small number of new COVID cases years from now. Not sure that some people actually grasp that scientific reality


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 27, 2021)

Then they will hide in their houses...the rest of us will..just get on with it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2021)

Just got back from a business conference in Chicago with about 215 attendees.  Chicago has an indoor mask rule, but the hotel said that they couldn’t tell us what to do for a “private event” (ahem).

Maybe 5% of attendees wore masks.


----------



## abc (Oct 27, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The bigger question is will many in society be able to accept that any COVID infections is OK, since the truth is that we're never going to eliminate COVID from society, and there will always be a very small number of new COVID cases years from now.


They'll "grasp" it the moment the media stop sensationalizing new Covid variants and cases!

Covid is over for the vaccinated. But what would the media do without some new "thing" to keep their audience? They will continue to report on outbreaks in any corner they could find it. (and thanks to the anti-vaxxers, there will be many of those keep cropping up to feed the media's appetite)


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 28, 2021)

Went to a movie last night in Times Square...show that vac card!


----------



## drjeff (Oct 28, 2021)

abc said:


> They'll "grasp" it the moment the media stop sensationalizing new Covid variants and cases!
> 
> Covid is over for the vaccinated. But what would the media do without some new "thing" to keep their audience? They will continue to report on outbreaks in any corner they could find it. (and thanks to the anti-vaxxers, there will be many of those keep cropping up to feed the media's appetite)



Agree with the media sensationalization part.

Unfortunately I feel that unless the sensationalism stops in the next few months, ahead of the major 2022 campaign/election cycle, if focus groups show that the Covid fear narrative still is working, then we've got another year plus of media fear pushing.

Now if by chance next week in both the gubernatorial races in NJ and VA the Republicans unseat the current Democrats in office, where amongst many things, their handling of all things COVID in their states is one of the many campaign issues, then that may help eliminate the constant media COVID fear angle since it will be a sign that it's value for pushing an agenda for their preferred candidates isn't nearly as effective as it used to be


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 28, 2021)

In fairness part of the rules thing is, they have to generalize and will always err on the side of caution.  So it makes some sense in medical settings, like a regular doctor's visit, to leave your mask on, but not for a dentist office....but they just make one rule for 'medical settings'....

I just wish they would ease up for the winter, but I suspect they will wait until spring...


----------



## boston_e (Oct 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Agree with the media sensationalization part.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel that unless the sensationalism stops in the next few months, ahead of the major 2022 campaign/election cycle, if focus groups show that the Covid fear narrative still is working, then we've got another year plus of media fear pushing.
> 
> Now if by chance next week in both the gubernatorial races in NJ and VA the Republicans unseat the current Democrats in office, where amongst many things, their handling of all things COVID in their states is one of the many campaign issues, then that may help eliminate the constant media COVID fear angle since it will be a sign that it's value for pushing an agenda for their preferred candidates isn't nearly as effective as it used to be


Hate to break it to you but right leaning "news" outlets have politicized COVID related issues as much or more than left.  If republicans win in NJ and VA it will simply reinforce the idea that it is effective for the right leaning outlets to continue to rile on about freedoms and anti-vax BS.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Hate to break it to you but right leaning "news" outlets have politicized COVID related issues as much or more than left.  If republicans win in NJ and VA it will simply reinforce the idea that it is effective for the right leaning outlets to continue to rile on about freedoms and anti-vax BS.



I'll see your Anti-Vax BS and raise you "January 6th was a False Flag" by the most watched "news" program in the country. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453517062073110540


----------



## drjeff (Oct 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Hate to break it to you but right leaning "news" outlets have politicized COVID related issues as much or more than left.  If republicans win in NJ and VA it will simply reinforce the idea that it is effective for the right leaning outlets to continue to rile on about freedoms and anti-vax BS.



The point I was trying to make, is more about the desire to keep various restrictions in place as well as potential vaccine mandates for kids under 12 which are looming on the horizon. Both of those certainly are of the left's play book now. Both of those will be one of the issues that voters in NJ and VA will be likely thinking about as they go to the polls next Tuesday,

Both major political ideologies have some seriously flawed issues that they "run to" to try and drum up the support (and campaign donations) of their bases. The inability of so many, especially out on the fringes of both major ideologies to try and remove emotion from their thought processes and take a critical look at what their prefered media source(s) are feeding them is truly sad.


----------



## abc (Oct 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Both major political ideologies have some seriously flawed issues that they "run to" to try and drum up the support (and campaign donations) of their bases.


Aren't that the truth!


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 28, 2021)

You know people are radicalized and over politicized when they attack you for making a simple unbiased statement. Tucker Carlsons a joke, dude is role playing a blue collar worker. But there's more to the world than what Fox News or CNN says. You can’t say one is playing for ratings or has a bias but the other doesn’t, they all just want money and thats what drjeff was highlighting. Fox news will perpetuate its bs and CNN will do the same if it brings them ratings and money. The problem is we incentivize ratings and money over unity, logic, and peoples wellbeing.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 28, 2021)

If you want somewhat unbiased news...maybe BBC? The rest is opinion.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 28, 2021)

Hate all the politics thrown into everything these days.
 As a 36 year HealthCare professional Covid is sadly not over...
MA has been having 1,300+ new cases everyday for the last 2 months.
10-20 people die every day.
Folks are burnt out working 60/hours week w/ so many laid off, staff working remotely or just plain quit.
 OT $$ is great @ 2X.
But I'd rather go back to a normal schedule and have a week off when I want to.


----------



## Zand (Oct 28, 2021)

You have to go back over a month to find any singular day where the entire state of Massachusetts had over 1500 cases in a day, so I'd love to know how Boston could possibly be "having 1200+ new cases per day for the past 2 months."


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll see your Anti-Vax BS and raise you "January 6th was a False Flag" by the most watched "news" program in the country.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453517062073110540


Nah, it was the day democracy almost died.  More deadly than 9/11 even.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 28, 2021)

Zand said:


> You have to go back over a month to find any singular day where the entire state of Massachusetts had over 1500 cases in a day, so I'd love to know how Boston could possibly be "having 1200+ new cases per day for the past 2 months."


OOps. TYPO.    Sorry about that.
   - MA has been having  over 1,300 cases/day since 8/18, or the last 10 weeks

 My office looks out over our Testing Center (for symptomatic Pt, NO surveillance testing). and the line is  still 15-25 people deep all day long. Compared to  3-4 blocks long earlier this year.


----------



## abc (Oct 28, 2021)

2Planker said:


> MA has been having 1,300+ new cases everyday for the last 2 months.
> 10-20 people die every day.


How many of those 1300 were vaccinated?


----------



## kbroderick (Oct 28, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> If you want somewhat unbiased news...maybe BBC? The rest is opinion.


If you want actual news, read the damn paper. Pick your poison for tilt, but there are a handful across the pontifical spectrum that still do journalism, and written coverage tends to be a lot less of a soundbite fest than TV.


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## boston_e (Oct 29, 2021)

abc said:


> How many of those 1300 were vaccinated?


Last time I checked, Mass has been running appx 25% of cases as breakthroughs and 75% unvaccinated.

So the majority of the cases are happening in the minority (unvaccinated) segment of the population.


----------



## 1dog (Oct 29, 2021)

abc said:


> They'll "grasp" it the moment the media stop sensationalizing new Covid variants and cases!
> 
> Covid is over for the vaccinated. But what would the media do without some new "thing" to keep their audience? They will continue to report on outbreaks in any corner they could find it. (and thanks to the anti-vaxxers, there will be many of those keep cropping up to feed the media's appetite)


https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/10/01/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-24-2021/ 









						CITIZEN FREE PRESS
					

The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.




					citizenfreepress.com
				












						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




over? I wish that were the case. Agree on the media frenzy - if it bleeds , it leads. . but a large number of people have stopped watching or taking it as seriously as they did in 2020. They've all lost credibility, deserved or not. Snow, on the other hand, is in the offing. .


----------



## skiur (Oct 29, 2021)

abc said:


> How many of those 1300 were vaccinated?


How many of the 10-20 were vaccinated?


----------



## boston_e (Oct 29, 2021)

skiur said:


> How many of the 10-20 were vaccinated?


Are you asking about the 10-20 year old age group?


----------



## skiur (Oct 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Are you asking about the 10-20 year old age group?


No, the 1o-20 that die every day.


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 29, 2021)

1dog said:


> CITIZEN FREE PRESS
> 
> 
> The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.
> ...


The comments on this article are hilarious.  Who are these incompetent elites who manage to control everything except the horse de-wormer supply chain?  And why do they want to govern a world culled of everyone but this basket of unruly deplorables who are just too smart to fall for their vaccine scam?


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2021)

XTski said:


> Youngkin is going to take Va, that’s what I got after speaking with a hardcore Va democrat who is quite connected, I had never heard them speak negative about their party until last week, this is a good thing as theirs some real bull shit going on in schools etc that the dems tried to hide to pass their adgenda



And if Youngkin takes Virginia Joe Biden’s massive spending plan is dead.  Democrats in purple states will see the handwriting on the wall.


----------



## jimk (Oct 31, 2021)

Have lived in Virginia all of my life.  Populous Northern VA used to be Repub when I was a kid, then a swing area for years, but now mostly goes Dem.  Rest of VA is still mostly Repub.  The school situation during the pandemic was a big lose-lose around here.  Parents didn't like their kids having to do remote learning.  Teachers didn't like going into real school.  There are more parents than there are teachers and that could drive a Youngkin victory.  We'll see.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 1, 2021)

resorts of the Canadian Rockies just announced vax requirements for chairlifts. the social media is outstanding reading


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## machski (Nov 1, 2021)

No masks on lifts and only recommended in most lodges at SR if vaxed.  However, need patrol help on the hill?  Better get that mask on or no help offered.  Want to get into either the patrol or western Maine mountain clinic?  Better have a mask.  Need rentals?  Yup, need a mask on in there.  Also, no bags in lodges again and no booting up in there either.

Also, opening day to a date to be determined, only passholders, Ikon passes and ticket pack holders welcome to ski/ride.


----------



## Edd (Nov 1, 2021)

machski said:


> No masks on lifts and only recommended in most lodges at SR if vaxed.  However, need patrol help on the hill?  Better get that mask on or no help offered.  Want to get into either the patrol or western Maine mountain clinic?  Better have a mask.  Need rentals?  Yup, need a mask on in there.  Also, no bags in lodges again and no booting up in there either.
> 
> Also, opening day to a date to be determined, only passholders, Ikon passes and ticket pack holders welcome to ski/ride.


No bags in lodges. Not a fan of that decision.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 1, 2021)

Based upon all of the other rules, the no bags in lodges rule can't be Covid related.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 1, 2021)

This got lost in the last post of the last page, but RCR (fernie, kicking horse, more) are vax only for accessing chairlifts. That’s a major move.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> This got lost in the last post of the last page, but RCR (fernie, kicking horse, more) are vax only for accessing chairlifts. That’s a major move.



Sounds like a case of "I'll see your fear based operational decision recommendations and raise you another $100" type of decision....

What's next in line? Check your vaxx card at the lift AND you can only load lifts that have atleast 1 member of the BIPOC or LBGTQIA....., community?

Let's hope the the insanity pendulum has just about swung as far away from the center as possible and is about to start moving back towards some sane thought and normalcy!!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

machski said:


> No masks on lifts and only recommended in most lodges at SR if vaxed.  However, need patrol help on the hill?  Better get that mask on or no help offered.  Want to get into either the patrol or western Maine mountain clinic?  Better have a mask.  Need rentals?  Yup, need a mask on in there.  Also, no bags in lodges again and no booting up in there either.
> 
> Also, opening day to a date to be determined, only passholders, Ikon passes and ticket pack holders welcome to ski/ride.


wonder if the other Boyne resorts will be like this as well.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Let's hope the the insanity pendulum has just about swung as far away from the center as possible and is about to start moving back towards some sane thought and normalcy!!


I'd like to think that's the case, but after the last nearly 2 years, i'm no longer surprised at any new irrational fear-based decisions.


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> This got lost in the last post of the last page, but RCR (fernie, kicking horse, more) are vax only for accessing chairlifts. That’s a major move.


That’s just for Canadians, majority of whom happen to be vaccinated already. 

All non-Canadians had to be vaccinated to even enter Canada at all. 

So I don’t see what’s so “major” about it.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> That’s just for Canadians, majority of whom happen to be vaccinated already.
> 
> All non-Canadians had to be vaccinated to even enter Canada at all.
> 
> So I don’t see what’s so “major” about it.


SO instead you have to prove you're from the US


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> SO instead you have to prove you're from the US


SO...


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> SO...


I am saying you need to prove something one way or the other that is all.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> resorts of the Canadian Rockies just announced vax requirements for chairlifts.



I can see a rule like this for a Gondola, but an outdoor chair lift?  Is there a scientific basis for this?  I certainly haven't seen one.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> That’s just for Canadians, majority of whom happen to be vaccinated already.
> 
> All non-Canadians had to be vaccinated to even enter Canada at all.
> 
> So I don’t see what’s so “major” about it.



looks pretty major to the disgruntled hordes on social media. i have no dog in this fight but i love watching the anti-vax crowd meltdown when they get excluded from private businesses.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i love watching the anti-vax crowd meltdown when they get excluded from private businesses.



While you may love it, policies that are not rooted in science only validate the anti-vax crowd.  A stupid policy is a stupid policy - even if you get some sort of political entertainment from it.

I am fully vaccinated, and I couldn't care less if someone on a chairlift sitting next to me is vaccinated as well.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Nov 2, 2021)

If people are fine with vaccination requirements for indoor settings it doesn't seem crazy to me to require it for skiing. If you get injured, you're most likely going inside, and there's a good chance the patroller treating you is no spring chicken.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 2, 2021)

Back on topic.... 

I joined Pugski/Ski Talk over the summer and occasionally browse the different ski regions.  A lot of talk as the early season players open has been.... where'd all the people go?  Lifts being ski-on this early season when resorts were jam-packed open-close last season.  Covid-related?  People getting their lives back in order and skiing less?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 2, 2021)

i would say the vax requirements at major ski resorts is very on topic

but to your question, this time last year the world was essentially shut down still. people had far fewer options for their time and money. no movies, no concerts, no restaurants, no kids sports, no shopping mall...


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 2, 2021)

SenorQuesadilla said:


> If people are fine with vaccination requirements for indoor settings it doesn't seem crazy to me to require it for skiing. If you get injured, you're most likely going inside, and there's a good chance the patroller treating you is no spring chicken.


Perhaps if that patroller is worried they should just get the vaccine, where a proper n95 mask inside or just not work in a high risk setting like that?


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 2, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Perhaps if that patroller is worried they should just get the vaccine, where a proper n95 mask inside or just not work in a high risk setting like that?


SR Patrol states that you must have a mask on to get Patrol assistance on the hill, and also to enter the clinic (State law).

Having responded to many unresponsive patients, I'm wondering how they're going to mask up if unconscious...


----------



## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> SR Patrol states that you must have a mask on to get Patrol assistance on the hill, and also to enter the clinic (State law).
> 
> Having responded to many unresponsive patients, I'm wondering how they're going to mask up if unconscious...


That certainly is a valid question and that policy doesn't make a lot of sense. That would be like saying EMTs or other first responders can't help an injured person in an auto accident if the injured person is not wearing a mask.


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Perhaps if that patroller is worried they should just get the vaccine, where a proper n95 mask inside *or just not work *in a high risk setting like that?


Given the labor shortage we're already seeing, it's perfectly reasonable for resort owners to exclude unvaccinated than to lose staff due to having to cater to the anti-vaxxers.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Given the labor shortage we're already seeing, it's perfectly reasonable for resort owners to exclude unvaccinated than to lose staff due to having to cater to the anti-vaxxers.



Huh?  There is no scientific evidence showing that a fleeting outdoor encounter poses a credible risk of transmission.  

If you want to require vaccinations to enter buildings, so be it.  But requiring a vaccination to ride an outdoor lift is absurd.


----------



## skiur (Nov 2, 2021)

How does one perform CPR with masks on?


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Huh?  There is no scientific evidence showing that a fleeting outdoor encounter poses a credible risk of transmission.
> 
> If you want to require vaccinations to enter buildings, so be it.  But requiring a vaccination to ride an outdoor lift is absurd.


It doesn't matter what the real risk is. It's the perceived risk of the employees. If your kay employees don't feel safe and want to quit, you lose.

The other side of the coin applies too. Vaccine mandate can do the same, losing key employee due to them not wanting to get the shot.

I know the higher up in my company is trying to juggle that balance: losing people due to vaccine mandate vs losing people who don't want to be in the same room with anti-vaxxers.

At the moment, people who had vaccination have the momentum. So expect more "unreasonable" requirements to come along.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

skiur said:


> How does one perform CPR with masks on?


New cpr is only chest compressions.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Given the labor shortage we're already seeing, it's perfectly reasonable for resort owners to exclude unvaccinated than to lose staff due to having to cater to the anti-vaxxers.


They need to cater to their employees that are anti-vaxxers to keep staff.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> It doesn't matter what the real risk is. It's the perceived risk of the employees. If your kay employees don't feel safe and want to quit, you lose.
> 
> The other side of the coin applies too. Vaccine mandate can do the same, losing key employee due to them not wanting to get the shot.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing that if one did an poll of ski resort employees, who would be required by their employers to wear a mask at work based on the likely soon to be released gov't via OSHA mandates or else face (the ski resort operator) fines from OSHA, that the majority of employees would elect not to wear a mask, especially while working outside, just like the customers will have the option to not wear a mask outside.

I am guessing with many companies, this is more about not wanting to face gov't agency fines more than it is about giving their employees the option to wear, or not wear a mask. 

Same thing with the vaccination status, especially with younger, healthier employees


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 2, 2021)

skiur said:


> How does one perform CPR with masks on?


Very Easy 
Since 2019 CPR no longer involves rescue breathing. Just chest compressions.
 For professional rescuers, 2 man CPR is done w/ an ambu bag


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 2, 2021)

skiur said:


> How does one perform CPR with masks on?


You don't do breaths anymore, just chest compressions.  It's pretty easy


----------



## kbroderick (Nov 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That certainly is a valid question and that policy doesn't make a lot of sense. That would be like saying EMTs or other first responders can't help an injured person in an auto accident if the injured person is not wearing a mask.


Unless things have changed since I was patrolling, most unresponsive patients are getting an oxygen mask installed pretty quickly, so perhaps that's not so much an issue.

Responsive but unmasked and combative patients would seem a different issue.


----------



## tnt1234 (Nov 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Agree with the media sensationalization part.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel that unless the sensationalism stops in the next few months, ahead of the major 2022 campaign/election cycle, if focus groups show that the Covid fear narrative still is working, then we've got another year plus of media fear pushing.
> 
> Now if by chance next week in both the gubernatorial races in NJ and VA the Republicans unseat the current Democrats in office, where amongst many things, their handling of all things COVID in their states is one of the many campaign issues, then that may help eliminate the constant media COVID fear angle since it will be a sign that it's value for pushing an agenda for their preferred candidates isn't nearly as effective as it used to be


It seems to me most of the fear at this point is 'fear of mandates!!' and 'Fear of vaccinations!' And 'fear of fear!' from the right.

On Cnn et al. I hear about the positive strides where're making especially in highly vaccinated areas, and how the numbers are going int he right direction.

In NJ kind of feels over mostly.  Still wearing masks indoors a lot, but that's about it.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> This got lost in the last post of the last page, but RCR (fernie, kicking horse, more) are vax only for accessing chairlifts. That’s a major move.



And the Quebec Ski Areas Association just announced today that vaccines will be required for accessing ski lifts at resorts in Quebec as well.


----------



## skiur (Nov 2, 2021)

So your ok if you plan to skin up the mountain?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 3, 2021)

You crash..dislocate or break something..repsonsive..not combative but not wearing a mask...they...leave you there???


----------



## ss20 (Nov 3, 2021)

Y'all are getting ridiculous with the ski patrol mask bit.... if you have minor injuries and have a mask with you, great, they'll probably ask you nicely to put it on or give you one.  If you're unconscious and a mangled mess but not wearing a mask they won't just leave you there or not give you care....


----------



## 1dog (Nov 3, 2021)

COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov
				




looks like the NE is doing just fine. . . .


----------



## machski (Nov 3, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Very Easy
> Since 2019 CPR no longer involves rescue breathing. Just chest compressions.
> For professional rescuers, 2 man CPR is done w/ an ambu bag


The ambu bag or on mountain, bet patrol's carry the pocket breathing mask with one way check valves.  We have those on all our attended large cabin aircraft for CPR since it could be an extended event compared to being on the ground.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 3, 2021)

lol. ok.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2021)

Biden's agenda is now dead in the water.  Way too many purple state Democrats are going to run for the hills.  This is bad news for Biden, but the good news is that he will probably forget that it even happened by dinner time.

Virginia Republicans elected a black female Lieutenant Governor, a Cuban-American Attorney General, and replaced a Dem governor who wore an actual KKK outfit.  Former Biden voters, working class people, and Latinos voted Republican in droves.  A 75% Hispanic county in Texas flipped red.  This clearly wasn't all about "racism" - despite what MSNBC may have you believe.

People are sick of the partisanship.  McAuliffe could barely utter a sentence without invoking Trump - and disingenuously painted Youngkin as the spawn of Trump.    Youngkin distanced himself from Trump and stressed that he wanted to reach out across the aisle and work collaboratively to get things done for the people of Virginia.  Guess which message resonated with the voters...


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 3, 2021)

machski said:


> The ambu bag or on mountain, bet patrol's carry the pocket breathing mask with one way check valves.  We have those on all our attended large cabin aircraft for CPR since it could be an extended event compared to being on the ground.


In the Covid Era NO ONE is doing  2 man rescue breathing anymore.
BVM w/ compressions and an AED is what you get.

 The one way valve masks allow for airflow from rescuer's mouth/lungs into the Pt.
Simply put, No one wants/does that anymore, as chest compressions alone are proven to be as effective.

Plus, it's the AED that is going to save your life.
CPR just keeps you alive (barely) until the AED arrives.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 3, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Biden's agenda is now dead in the water.  Way too many purple state Democrats are going to run for the hills.  This is bad news for Biden, but the good news is that he will probably forget that it even happened by dinner time.
> 
> Virginia Republicans elected a black female Lieutenant Governor, a Cuban-American Attorney General, and replaced a Dem governor who wore an actual KKK outfit.  Former Biden voters, working class people, and Latinos voted Republican in droves.  A 75% Hispanic county in Texas flipped red.  This clearly wasn't all about "racism" - despite what MSNBC may have you believe.
> 
> People are sick of the partisanship.  McAuliffe could barely utter a sentence without invoking Trump - and disingenuously painted Youngkin as the spawn of Trump.    Youngkin distanced himself from Trump and stressed that he wanted to reach out across the aisle and work collaboratively to get things done for the people of Virginia.  Guess which message resonated with the voters...


‘Let’s Go Brandon’ chant a ‘complete indictment’ of the US media​


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 3, 2021)

thanks for your analysis, rupert.


----------



## NYDB (Nov 3, 2021)

jeebus i hope it snows soon.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks for your analysis, rupert.



You will get over the pain someday, Kusty.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2021)

Pain ebbs and flows from dem to repub.
As Eddie Vedder said- “Ain’t no middle any more”


----------



## Edd (Nov 3, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> You will get over the pain someday, Kusty.


Maybe do your thing and tell him to not be political on the forum.


----------



## boston_e (Nov 3, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Youngkin distanced himself from Trump and *stressed that he wanted to reach out across the aisle and work collaboratively to get things done for the people* of Virginia.  Guess which message resonated with the voters...



Interesting that this is pretty much exactly what Biden did to get elected as well.


----------



## skiur (Nov 3, 2021)

Edd said:


> Maybe do your thing and tell him to not be political on the forum.



That rule went away in 2020.  Moderators talk as much politics as anyone else.


----------



## abc (Nov 4, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I am guessing with many companies, this is more about not wanting to face gov't agency fines more than it is about giving their employees the option to wear, or not wear a mask


“Companies”? I heaven’t heard too many (mandating vaccines)!

Healthcare settings, perhaps. The rest of the private sectors don’t have any government involvements to speak of. It’s largely just which set of employees you’re willing to piss off. 

Many companies however, are requiring their new hires to be vaccinated. Not so much of existing staffs


----------



## machski (Nov 4, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> wonder if the other Boyne resorts will be like this as well.


Loon is currently requiring face coverings in all lodges unless eating and outside when social distance cannot be maintained.  This is due to the fact they operate on federal land (according to them).  The word I heard is that chairs will not require masks this winter, though the above wording could change that.  The Gondola I have heard WILL require face coverings.  Whether the new Kanc8 will or won't I don't know.  They haven't posted their winter protocols yet, though they have started making snow above Grand Junction.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2021)

The new OSHA rule came out today for employers with at least 100 employees - which includes almost all ski areas since part time employees are counted in that total.

A couple of highlights:
1) Unvaccinated employees don't just have to test every week - they have to provide their employer with a test result every seven days.  If they don't yet have the test result, they can't show up to work.
2) All unvaccinated employees must wear masks.

It will be interesting to see how much pushback we will see from workers who are central to our infrastructure (airlines, truckers, etc.)  It will also be interesting to see if this impacts ski areas, since the unvaccinated tend to skew young and blue collar.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 4, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The new OSHA rule came out today for employers with at least 100 employees - which includes almost all ski areas since part time employees are counted in that total.
> 
> A couple of highlights:
> 1) Unvaccinated employees don't just have to test every week - they have to provide their employer with a test result every seven days.  If they don't yet have the test result, they can't show up to work.
> ...



I think the most certain thing about this is that a bunch of attornies will be racking up a bunch of billable hours both trying to get this mandate overturned as well as upheld, depending on whom if paying them....


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 4, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The new OSHA rule came out today for employers with at least 100 employees - which includes almost all ski areas since part time employees are counted in that total.
> 
> A couple of highlights:
> 1) Unvaccinated employees don't just have to test every week - they have to provide their employer with a test result every seven days.  If they don't yet have the test result, they can't show up to work.
> ...


and they have to pay $150 every week for that test.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> and they have to pay $150 every week for that test.



The biggest issue I have with how the Gov't is handling this, and for the record, I am Moderna double dosed, and am rolling my sleeve up tomorrow for my booster, is the basically complete denial of the government of the role that natural immunity plays for those who have had Covid and recovered. 

To not even acknowledge that just makes little immunological sense. And yes I fully get that not all tests for antibodies are equal.

Whether or not its coincedence or not, is does seems like the mantra of "trust/follow the science" seems to be uttered less and less these days, especially comapred to earlier this year as vaccinations for the masses were underway


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 4, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The biggest issue I have with how the Gov't is handling this, and for the record, I am Moderna double dosed, and am rolling my sleeve up tomorrow for my booster, is the basically complete denial of the government of the role that natural immunity plays for those who have had Covid and recovered.
> 
> To not even acknowledge that just makes little immunological sense. And yes I fully get that not all tests for antibodies are equal.
> 
> Whether or not its coincedence or not, is does seems like the mantra of "trust/follow the science" seems to be uttered less and less these days, especially comapred to earlier this year as vaccinations for the masses were underway


I’m getting my booster today and I feel the exact same way, trust/follow science has given way to have faith/believe. My friend just had Covid a month ago and now they’re making him get vaccinated for his job. In my opinion (no medical background so I could be wrong) he probably has better protection and less chance of transmission than someone who got their vaccine when they first became available.


----------



## boston_e (Nov 4, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> I’m getting my booster today and I feel the exact same way, trust/follow science has given way to have faith/believe. My friend just had Covid a month ago and now they’re making him get vaccinated for his job. In my opinion (no medical background so I could be wrong) he probably has better protection and less chance of transmission than someone who got their vaccine when they first became available.


This may be true - but at least some research is showing that the best protection of all is hybrid immunity (people who have both recovered from Covid and have had a vaccine), and with basically no real negatives to getting vaccinated, why not get it anyway and be doubly protected?


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 4, 2021)

boston_e said:


> This may be true - but at least some research is showing that the best protection of all is hybrid immunity (people who have both recovered from Covid and have had a vaccine), and with basically no real negatives to getting vaccinated, why not get it anyway and be doubly protected?


I definitely agree, I’m just wondering whats going to happen in ~6 months with the unboostered.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> and they have to pay $150 every week for that test.


Are there still "free" testing sites out there or are those going away?


----------



## skiur (Nov 4, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Are there still "free" testing sites out there or are those going away?



My wife needed to get a test and went to a urgent care.  They charged her $80 which her job covered but it wasn't free.


----------



## parahelia (Nov 4, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Are there still "free" testing sites out there or are those going away?


Still lots of free testing in MA.  I went to a center run by Project Beacon today, in and out in 5 mins.  They usually get you the results in < 24 hours.  

This particular time I had symptoms and needed to be tested to go back to work (negative rapid test not enough).  But they test everyone and don’t even ask for insurance info.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 5, 2021)

nyc doh free pcr tests with results in 6 hours is still very much a thing


----------



## thebigo (Nov 5, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The new OSHA rule came out today for employers with at least 100 employees - which includes almost all ski areas since part time employees are counted in that total.
> 
> A couple of highlights:
> 1) Unvaccinated employees don't just have to test every week - they have to provide their employer with a test result every seven days.  If they don't yet have the test result, they can't show up to work.
> ...



Further to the above, we were told that the federal contractor guidance does not differentiate between remote work and in person work. Think about this for a minute: A fully remote employee, granted an exemption due to a sincerely held religious belief, is still subject to masking and testing.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Further to the above, we were told that the federal contractor guidance does not differentiate between remote work and in person work. Think about this for a minute: A fully remote employee, granted an exemption due to a sincerely held religious belief, is still subject to masking and testing.


But it is "THE SCIENCE".  Don't you know.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Further to the above, we were told that the federal contractor guidance does not differentiate between remote work and in person work. Think about this for a minute: A fully remote employee, granted an exemption due to a sincerely held religious belief, is still subject to masking and testing.


Does OSHA come to your house to check if you are masked? Or do they put cameras in to watch you?


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The new OSHA rule came out today for employers with at least 100 employees - which includes almost all ski areas since part time employees are counted in that total.
> 
> A couple of highlights:
> 1) Unvaccinated employees don't just have to test every week - they have to provide their employer with a test result every seven days.  If they don't yet have the test result, they can't show up to work.
> ...


Airlines had to comply with the federal contractor mandates ahead of this general OSHA one.  They are all federal contractors in one extent or another.  United has been the most severe, alreading firing several hundred who refused to vaccinate and putting on leave without pay all those with qualified vax exemptions.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Further to the above, we were told that the federal contractor guidance does not differentiate between remote work and in person work. Think about this for a minute: A fully remote employee, granted an exemption due to a sincerely held religious belief, is still subject to masking and testing.



Talked to a friend that works at Verizon (wireless side) yesterday, they're now forcing their non union employees to get the shot- even the ones that work remote and have 0 interaction with people.   But the Union employees which are most of the field workers on the hardline side and actually interact with people and go into peoples houses don't have to get the shot.   Makes sense, right?


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Talked to a friend that works at Verizon (wireless side) yesterday, they're now forcing their non union employees to get the shot- even the ones that work remote and have 0 interaction with people.   But the Union employees which are most of the field workers on the hardline side and actually interact with people and go into peoples houses don't have to get the shot.   Makes sense, right?


this may change with Biden plan or they will have to pay 14k a day per unvaccinated employee unless they count them as "remote" workers.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 5, 2021)

revelstoke = vax only. sensing a trend here north of the border...


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

Some shitty music in a brewery in Keene, NH


----------



## boston_e (Nov 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> revelstoke = vax only. sensing a trend here north of the border...


Yup - not sure if Tremblant was mentioned previously but seems to be the same there.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Yup - not sure if Tremblant was mentioned previously but seems to be the same there.


Do you have to be vax’d to get into Canada ?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 5, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Yup - not sure if Tremblant was mentioned previously but seems to be the same there.



from what i read, which is admittedly not much, it seems all quebec ski areas are vax only by govt mandate, and that others are opting based on govt recommendation, or in the anticipation of mandates


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Do you have to be vax’d to get into Canada ?



yes, you also need a test within 72 hours prior to crossing into Canada. no test required to cross back into the USA. this is for land border crossings, not flying. and the whole situation seems to change rapidly. i am planning on driving into BC from eastern WA in feb and am doing it the morning after i arrive so my NYC test will get me over the border and i wont need to worry about finding a test in spokane with same day turnaround. i also know where to get it for free here in nyc.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yes, you also need a test within 72 hours prior to crossing into Canada. no test required to cross back into the USA. this is for land border crossings, not flying. and the whole situation seems to change rapidly. i am planning on driving into BC from eastern WA in feb and am doing it the morning after i arrive so my NYC test will get me over the border and i wont need to worry about finding a test in spokane with same day turnaround. i also know where to get it for free here in nyc.


So doesn’t matter if you need to be vax’d to ski in Canada as you can’t get there if you aren’t vax’d


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 6, 2021)

Practically yea it doesn’t effect us as Americans. It effects Canadians and is a pretty significant thing worth mentioning in this thread tho


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 6, 2021)

thanks for your analysis, rupert.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Does OSHA come to your house to check if you are masked? Or do they put cameras in to watch you?


To my knowledge, OSHA is not relevant to the federal contractor mandate. HR however is compelled to follow the guidance and supervisors are compelled to abide by hr policy. Supervisors actually do have cameras in employees houses, indeed we spend a significant portion of the day looking into said cameras.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> To my knowledge, OSHA is not relevant to the federal contractor mandate. HR however is compelled to follow the guidance and supervisors are compelled to abide by hr policy. Supervisors actually do have cameras in employees houses, indeed we spend a significant portion of the day looking into said cameras.


"However, because employees’ homes are not covered contractor workplaces, such remote employees are not required to follow the additional masking and social distancing requirements when working from home."

Looks like they don't have to mask up but they do need to be vaccinated


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 16, 2021)

Boston just Canceled this weekend's Ski & Snowboard Expo (now called The Snowbound Festival) due to Covid Concern's.

Hmmm Michelle Wu's first day in office


----------



## drjeff (Nov 16, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Boston just Cancelled this weekend's Ski & Snowboard Expo (now called The Snowbound Festival) due to Covid Concern's.
> 
> Hmmm Michelle Wu's first day in office



And yet the Celtics have 2 home games in TD Garden this weekend and BC football is hosting Florida State. Now you could argue that the BC game outside at Chestnut Hill is different, but the Celtics games, both of which will likely have far more people in the building at any one time that the Ski Expo would of had, that's a head scratcher, as they likely could of used the same admission protocols that TD Garden uses


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2021)

I'm wondering if the vendors were pulling out.  Maybe the marketing teams are helping HR find snowmakers!

I was in the Convention Center two weeks ago for a physicians conference.  It was fine.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 16, 2021)

I'm going to  1000+ convention on Thursday.  I am boosted.  however, I'd be lying that I don't have some apprehension.  It is an engineering and construction conference.  There will be little to no mask wearing.  I will definitely at times, in the smaller breakout rooms be wearing a mask.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Boston just Canceled this weekend's Ski & Snowboard Expo (now called The Snowbound Festival) due to Covid Concern's.
> 
> Hmmm Michelle Wu's first day in office


I didn’t even hear about it happening this year. I went to it quite a few times in the past.


----------



## bluebird (Nov 16, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Boston just Canceled this weekend's Ski & Snowboard Expo (now called The Snowbound Festival) due to Covid Concern's.
> 
> Hmmm Michelle Wu's first day in office


??? I received an email about it being postponed to 2022 back in September. (9/9 to be exact)


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 16, 2021)

Someone on the SR site said it was Canc a while ago....
But it just was announced today on WBZ radio & Ch 4.

I agree, all the marketing people are gonna be needed to make snow, check tickets, flip burgers, park cars, drive shuttles, wait tables, washing dishes, make beds.....


----------



## boston_e (Nov 16, 2021)

bluebird said:


> ??? I received an email about it being postponed to 2022 back in September. (9/9 to be exact)


My memory too is that this was canceled several weeks back.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Nov 16, 2021)

bluebird said:


> ??? I received an email about it being postponed to 2022 back in September. (9/9 to be exact)



Yes it was canceled about a month or two ago.  My wife and talked about it with owners of The Ride and Ski Card.  He knew back in August. as a vendor.


----------



## abc (Nov 16, 2021)

How dare you all present information to contradict someone's implying this cancellation is the doing of a new liberal mayor!  

Don't you all know this is a political forum with only occasional ski related discussions?


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

Even the NYT now acknowledges that the vaccines weren’t going to stop the spread of covid.
I guess threats of violence and rusty implements were just hysteria from unhinged people who couldn’t think for themselves.

See ya on the slopes


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

Variants have different challenges.  Prior to Omicron, vaccines did help some with preventing spread.   

What can't be denied is that they do very much help in preventing severe illness and reducing hospital stay lengths and hence strain on the healthcare system.  It still 100% makes sense for all who are eligible to get the jab. 

I don't think this is some sorta victory lap you were hoping for Andrew.  Evidence still highly favors the importance of getting vaccinated.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 3, 2022)

lol. what dhs said, and i'd still love to stab you with a rusty screwdriver too.


----------



## Edd (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Even the NYT now acknowledges that the vaccines weren’t going to stop the spread of covid.
> I guess threats of violence and rusty implements were just hysteria from unhinged people who couldn’t think for themselves.
> 
> See ya on the slopes


Gonna take a wild guess that you don’t work in a hospital.


----------



## boston_e (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Variants have different challenges.  Prior to Omicron, vaccines did help some with preventing spread.
> 
> What can't be denied is that they do very much help in preventing severe illness and reducing hospital stay lengths and hence strain on the healthcare system.  It still 100% makes sense for all who are eligible to get the jab.
> 
> I don't think this is some sorta victory lap you were hoping for Andrew.  Evidence still highly favors the importance of getting vaccinated.


While by no means 100% vaccines still help with preventing spread - with first Delta and now Omicron variant they are less effective at that, although it still seems to be pretty good after the 3rd shot.

As you mention, they are still very effective at reducing the chances of serious illness.  Pretty much zero reason for someone not to get jabbed and those who don't are only helping to prolong this whole situation.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 3, 2022)

Should be an interesting next month.

Interested in seeing how mountains can comply with fed/state testing and quarantine requirements while maintaining staffing levels high enough to keep mountains open as omicron rips through the employees.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Variants have different challenges.  Prior to Omicron, vaccines did help some with preventing spread.
> 
> What can't be denied is that they do very much help in preventing severe illness and reducing hospital stay lengths and hence strain on the healthcare system.  It still 100% makes sense for all who are eligible to get the jab.
> 
> I don't think this is some sorta victory lap you were hoping for Andrew.  Evidence still highly favors the importance of getting vaccinated.


The point I stated several times agreed with the basic premise that the vaccine helps, but where it differs was that it would not stop covid and therefore be a demand on free people.
Covid is here to stay, forever, like permanent. 
IMO Forcing people with the threat of violence and lost earning opportunities to take a shot that was developed and rushed into use in under a year by a President that half the country didn’t approve of wasn’t really the way our country should work.
It’s good to see some other people coming to the realization that it is to be “lived with” and not “eradicated”.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. what dhs said, and i'd still love to stab you with a rusty screwdriver too.


I'm guessing you're betting he hadn't had a tetanus vaccine shot? Probably a good bet.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 3, 2022)

Parents, girlfriend, family and all my friends are triple dosed. I'll still mask up for the sake of others but as far as I'm concerned this shit is over for me and I honestly have zero fucks to give. This is now a battle for anyone refusing to get dosed. I'm done


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 3, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> Should be an interesting next month.
> 
> Interested in seeing how mountains can comply with fed/state testing and quarantine requirements while maintaining staffing levels high enough to keep mountains open as omicron rips through the employees.


Killington was definitely feeling the effects this past weekend.  I read they had something like 80+ staff members out either with covid or with some sort of exposure.  They had a couple of the rental shops closed due to staffing as well as some of the indoor bar areas (not clear if they did that due to staffing or just to reduce people staying inside)

For me, I didn't notice much difference since I was not renting nor did I plan to go to the bar - I don't know if grooming was reduced or not.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> This is now a battle for anyone refusing to get dosed. I'm done


I just wish we stop the "battle". 

Those who are vaxxed, live a normal life. Those who are not, live a normal life. If the vaxxed catch it, they won't get too sick. That's fine by me. Those who hadn't got vaxxed, they might get sick. That's fine by them too.

People overeat, under exercise, got drunk, take drugs... So what if they refuse vaxx? Let them! 

When I go to a restaurant in NYC, there's a great big sign on the window of their sanitation grade. Add percentage vaccination to it. People can choose where to eat and where not to.


----------



## boston_e (Jan 3, 2022)

abc said:


> People overeat, under exercise, got drunk, take drugs... So what if they refuse vaxx? Let them!



I agree in theory - if someone is too stupid to get vaccinated and are one of the unlucky ones to end up in a hospital on a ventilator that is on them.  The problem lies in managing health care capacity and availability.  If you or a family member needs emergency medical care and all the beds are full with unvaccinated morons that is a big problem.


----------



## skimagic (Jan 3, 2022)

boston_e said:


> I agree in theory - if someone is too stupid to get vaccinated and are one of the unlucky ones to end up in a hospital on a ventilator that is on them.  The problem lies in managing health care capacity and availability.  If you or a family member needs emergency medical care and all the beds are full with unvaccinated morons that is a big problem.


plus the cost of hospitalizations will have to be passed either through higher health care insurance rates  or through taxpayer subsidies.


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 3, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> Should be an interesting next month.
> 
> Interested in seeing how mountains can comply with fed/state testing and quarantine requirements while maintaining staffing levels high enough to keep mountains open as omicron rips through the employees.


Black Mountain just announced that they will be closed this week (reopening Saturday) due to Covid among their staff.  I don't know if that means they just don't have enough people or if they are just being super cautious.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

boston_e said:


> The problem lies in managing health care capacity and availability. If you or a family member needs emergency medical care and all the beds are full with unvaccinated morons that is a big problem.


Sadly, been there.

Wait in ER for ages for a broken bone (not mine). One after another came in, gun shot wound, heart attack...

Either we double or triple hospital capacity, at double triple our insurance premium. There will never be enough hospital capacity at all times. Had also been in ER where I was the only patient and got all the attention for a (relatively straight forward) collarbone break. Covid is no different.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

skimagic said:


> plus the cost of hospitalizations will have to be passed either through higher health care insurance rates  or through taxpayer subsidies.


We're already subsidizing many other behaviors. We just have to put up with it. (there maybe other ways to recover part of the cost, like higher copay for Covid treatment if you're unvaxxed).

The whole bases for mandating vaccine is to reduce spread. But that appears not applicable in the face of Omicron. So I no longer support these high pression vaccination policy any more. 

(BTW, the development of vaccine wasn't targeted for stopping spread to begin with. It was only tested for their efficacy in keeping  people from getting severe illness/death. It was later found out it also help reduce spread significantly for the earlier variants. At such, it was reasonable to have some limited mandate, for workers who provide public services. But now... not so much any more IMHO)


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> The point I stated several times agreed with the basic premise that the vaccine helps, but where it differs was that it would not stop covid and therefore be a demand on free people.
> Covid is here to stay, forever, like permanent.
> IMO Forcing people with the threat of violence and lost earning opportunities to take a shot that was developed and rushed into use in under a year by a President that half the country didn’t approve of wasn’t really the way our country should work.
> It’s good to see some other people coming to the realization that it is to be “lived with” and not “eradicated”.


A demand on free people.  Whatever...

There is no threat of violence.  The unvaxxed just continue to crowd hospitals and allow for more and more variants which will result in covid never being eradicated and society being forced to live with it.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Took a week Vacation last week. 
 Felt Super Guilty as our ICU #'s rose and now we have more MD's/RN's/Staff out w/ more Pts in house...


This SUCKS it needs to end. 
    PLEASE GET VACCINATED


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

abc said:


> We're already subsidizing many other behaviors. We just have to put up with it. (there maybe other ways to recover part of the cost, like higher copay for Covid treatment if you're unvaxxed).
> 
> The whole bases for mandating vaccine is to reduce spread. But that appears not applicable in the face of Omicron. So I no longer support these high pression vaccination policy any more.
> 
> (BTW, the development of vaccine wasn't targeted for stopping spread to begin with. It was only tested for their efficacy in keeping  people from getting severe illness/death. It was later found out it also help reduce spread significantly for the earlier variants. At such, it was reasonable to have some limited mandate, for workers who provide public services. But now... not so much any more IMHO)


Let’s not forget the strain the vaccine mandates put on the hospital system.
RI hospitals fired hundreds of un vaxed staff and are now faced with the need to put vaccinated but Covid positive staff back to work regardless of status.
#backfired


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

I used to work for Partners healthcare, which is the largest employer in New England.  Mandatory flu vaccination has been their policy for over a decade.  I still have to get one with my current employer too.  That will remain the case with Covid.  I don't have an issue with it.  It's part of the commitment you make while working in healthcare.  We want nurses at the bedside and not in the hospital beds themselves. 

You and I just aren't going to see eye to eye on this topic Andrew.  How about joining in some of the many skiing discussions in the forums.  There's a few rather spirited discussions on Vail right now if that interests you!

Or is your only interest in posting here to drone on about your own Covid politics?  That would certainly appear to be the case.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Let’s not forget the strain the vaccine mandates put on the hospital system.
> RI hospitals fired hundreds of un vaxed staff and are now faced with the need to put vaccinated but Covid positive staff back to work regardless of status.
> #backfired


No comparisom...
 RI fired less than 4%.  
More than 20% are out sick today...


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I used to work for Partners healthcare, which is the largest employer in New England.  Mandatory flu vaccination has been their policy for over a decade.  I still have to get one with my current employer too.  That will remain the case with Covid.  I don't have an issue with it.  It's part of the commitment you make while working in healthcare.  We want nurses at the bedside and not in the hospital beds themselves.
> 
> You and I just aren't going to see eye to eye on this topic Andrew.  How about joining in some of the many skiing discussions in the forums.  There's a few rather spirited discussions on Vail right now if that interests you!
> 
> Or is your only interest in posting here to drone on about your own Covid politics?  That would certainly appear to be the case.


How long has the flu shot been around?

Not much interest or knowledge on the Vail topic. My only comment would be it sounds like a real shame what they are doing at Wild Cat. Love that place even though I haven’t been there in 10+ years.

The skiing this year has been ho hum at best at Sunday River and seems consistent through out the region. Biggest issue there has been “staffing issues” which I can only assume in some way has a Covid angle.

Maybe some fresh snow late this week


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> No comparisom...
> RI fired less than 4%.
> More than 20% are out sick today...


And some will be back to work tomorrow with Covid
The way the regulations are getting lessened makes me feel like even those in control know that trying to eradicate Covid isnt going to work so we better find some work arounds Going forward.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

The MRNA vaccines have been in development for over a decade.  They have also proven to be more effective than the traditional vaccine put out by JnJ.   My basic understanding of the MRNA is that it is the way of the future and the future is now. 

But I'll humor you and call them "experimental".  At what point has enough time passed that you think they should be accepted as legitimate and no longer "experimental."


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

There're a lot of other changes since the pandemic that might become permanent. Some of those changes also affects the ski industry. Fixated on Covid is shortsighted.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> The MRNA vaccines have been in development for over a decade.  They have also proven to be more effective than the traditional vaccine put out by JnJ.   My basic understanding of the MRNA is that it is the way of the future and the future is now.
> 
> But I'll humor you and call them "experimental".  At what point has enough time passed that you think they should be accepted as legitimate and no longer "experimental."


At the start of this a friend in the Pharma industry said drugs like this typically take 3-5 years before gaining approval. I think that within a few years it will gain widespread appreciation. It was foolish to think that forcing a new drug on a nation of freethinking people wasn’t going to have some kickback. Especially when it was accompanied with the logic that it was the only way around Covid. We are seeing now that there are some work arounds, work arounds that some folks couldn’t comprehend 6 months ago.

Firing the people who you need most at a critical time isn’t lessening the impact on the healthcare system which has always been the main talking point.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

If those workers don't see the importance of leading by example and doing whatever they can to maintain health and further tying up resources at the very organizations they work for, then perhaps healthcare was the wrong trade for them to be in in the first place.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> At the start of this a friend in the Pharma industry said drugs like this typically take 3-5 years before gaining approval. I think that within a few years it will gain widespread appreciation. It was foolish to think that forcing a new drug on a nation of freethinking people wasn’t going to have some kickback. Especially when it was accompanied with the logic that it was the only way around Covid. We are seeing now that there are some work arounds, work arounds that some folks couldn’t comprehend 6 months ago.
> 
> Firing the people who you need most at a critical time isn’t lessening the impact on the healthcare system which has always been the main talking point.


The main reason the approval takes that long is that they need that long to determine the longer term efficacy. Side-effects for vaccines nearly always manifest themselves in a short period of time. Safety data is not something that would have changed with a longer approval timeline (contrary to popular belief and the popular claim that approval was too fast so it isn't safe). So the main difference between approving in the timeline that they did vs waiting for the efficacy data is that they didn't know up front that the efficacy in a 2-series mRNA shot would wane over time (nor obviously were they able to determine effectiveness against variants).


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> If those workers don't see the importance of leading by example and doing whatever they can to maintain health and further tying up resources at the very organizations they work for, then perhaps healthcare was the wrong trade for them to be in in the first place.


What does that have to do with firing perfectly capable people and now requiring infected people to work?
Maybe they shouldn’t be in healthcare but they definitely are trained people that aren’t helping to lessen the impact on our health care system right now.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

Those perfectly capable people should have gotten the vaccine.  They still should.  Everyone should who doesn't have a risk factor.  Omicron has not changed that fact. 

Again, having hospital personnel tie up healthcare resources any more than that which is unavoidable is unacceptable.  We don't want anyone on a vent and tying up ICU beds for weeks on end; especially healthcare personnel who should damn well know better to take better precautions.  Especially when they are free.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Especially when they are free.


I would hope health care workers are all paid well enough they can afford the vaccine if they want it, whether it's free or not.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Those perfectly capable people should have gotten the vaccine.  They still should.  Everyone should who doesn't have a risk factor.  Omicron has not changed that fact.
> 
> Again, having hospital personnel tie up healthcare resources any more than that which is unavoidable is unacceptable.  We don't want anyone on a vent and tying up ICU beds for weeks on end; especially healthcare personnel who should damn well know better to take better precautions.  Especially when they are free.


So basically “they are dumb and should be punished even at the expense of the healthcare system” is the logic here?

As unvaccinated people don’t they still pose a threat to the healthcare system IF they get sick? Wouldn’t they also pose a threat if they were vaccinated and got sick? Differentiating between the two is splitting hairs.

If it’s now ok for Covid positive vaccinated people to work in a hospital why shouldn’t unvaccinated, Covid negative people be able to? The mandate made no sense if the idea was to lessen the burden on healthcare.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

My Nephew tested positive on XMas Eve. NO symptoms at all.....
The they changed the Guidelines to "5 Day Rule"
 On Day #5 he played in his college Hoops Game.
School official told Coach "He should have been tested first."
 OK kid, Go get tested tmrw"
Day 6 couldn't get a test
Day #7 Tested Positive  
Now the whole college hoops team in done for the next week.....

 Lesson Learned - Many are still shedding Viruses at 6. 7 days.


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> What does that have to do with firing perfectly capable people and now *requiring infected people to work*?
> Maybe they shouldn’t be in healthcare but they definitely are trained people that aren’t helping to lessen the impact on our health care system right now.



I know this B.  you keep repeating fits your agenda but you are spreading bad information by continuing to repeat this.  The change in quarantine from
10 to 5 days is not "requiring infected people to work" - it is from research and learning that the risk of transmission from a vaccinated asymptomatic person is significantly lower in days 6-10 and the growing evidence that the infection period is 2 days before and 3 days after symptoms begin.


Andrew B. said:


> As unvaccinated people don’t they still pose a threat to the healthcare system IF they get sick? Wouldn’t they also pose a threat if they were vaccinated and got sick? Differentiating between the two is splitting hairs.



Not splitting hairs at all.  Even in the face of Omicron, Vaccinated (and especially those who have received their booster) are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to transmit.  They are also significantly less likely to end up in the hospital themselves.


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> My Nephew tested positive on XMas Eve. NO symptoms at all.....
> The they changed the Guidelines to "5 Day Rule"
> On Day #5 he played in his college Hoops Game.
> School official told Coach "He should have been tested first."
> ...


A day #7 positive test does not mean he is shedding virus.
In many cases the recommendation has been to not test at all for 90 days after testing positive because of the high chance of false positives.  It will be interesting to see how they handle this with the updated 5 Day quarantine.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> My Nephew tested positive on XMas Eve. NO symptoms at all.....
> The they changed the Guidelines to "5 Day Rule"
> On Day #5 he played in his college Hoops Game.
> School official told Coach "He should have been tested first."
> ...


It’s basketball, and I mean no disrespect but I hope no one in the team is symptomatic.
If so then maybe the rules for shutting the team down should be re-evaluated


Great Bear said:


> I know this B.  you keep repeating fits your agenda but you are spreading bad information by continuing to repeat this.  The change in quarantine from
> 10 to 5 days is not "requiring infected people to work" - it is from research and learning that the risk of transmission from a vaccinated asymptomatic person is significantly lower in days 6-10 and the growing evidence that the infection period is 2 days before and 3 days after symptoms begin.
> 
> 
> Not splitting hairs at all.  Even in the face of Omicron, Vaccinated (and especially those who have received their booster) are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to transmit.  They are also significantly less likely to end up in the hospital themselves. RI is now going to allow infected healthcare workers back to work





Great Bear said:


> I know this B.  you keep repeating fits your agenda but you are spreading bad information by continuing to repeat this.  The change in quarantine from
> 10 to 5 days is not "requiring infected people to work" - it is from research and learning that the risk of transmission from a vaccinated asymptomatic person is significantly lower in days 6-10 and the growing evidence that the infection period is 2 days before and 3 days after symptoms begin.
> 
> 
> Not splitting hairs at all.  Even in the face of Omicron, Vaccinated (and especially those who have received their booster) are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to transmit.  They are also significantly less likely to end up in the hospital themselves.


Today Rhode Island announced that Covid positive healthcare workers will be allowed to go back to work if staffing shortages require it.

Staffing shortages that would be 4% less if they didn’t fire those people.


----------



## kendo (Jan 3, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> Not splitting hairs at all.  Even in the face of Omicron, Vaccinated (and especially those who have received their booster) are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to transmit.  *They are also significantly less likely to end up in the hospital themselves.*



Supported by 8 months of data in NYS: 






						COVID-19 Breakthrough Data
					

Cases and hospitalizations by vaccination status




					coronavirus.health.ny.gov
				




In December 2021, the average new hospitalization Daily rate with confirmed CV-19 cases was *2.29*/100K Vaccinated and *31.54*/100K Unvaccinated.  Unvaccinated patients are filling NY hospitals at a *14x* rate of vaccinated. 

It's your decision if you get vaccinated.  Hopefully a look at actual data versus headlines & socials helps make the choice.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> It’s basketball, and I mean no disrespect but I hope no one in the team is symptomatic.
> If so then maybe the rules for shutting the team down should be re-evaluated
> 
> 
> Both the Coach and Asst Coach are now + w/ "mild symptoms".


 2 players have parents in Hosp. for 3 days.
Total mess. B-Ball team is done for a while


----------



## Harvey (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> As unvaccinated people don’t they still pose a threat to the healthcare system IF they get sick? Wouldn’t they also pose a threat if they were vaccinated and got sick? Differentiating between the two is splitting hairs.



That's BS and I'm guessing you know it. We're talking about the odds and severity of sickness.


----------



## SLyardsale (Jan 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Today Rhode Island announced that Covid positive healthcare workers will be allowed to go back to work if staffing shortages require it.
> 
> Staffing shortages that would be 4% less if they didn’t fire those people.


This is about to happen across the country.  They have no choice based on the current situation.  Mandates were a bad idea.  Now, this is being done for what amounts to the common cold for most.  The 5 day thing is a good idea, but it exposed the whole situation for what it is.


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 3, 2022)

I think of myself as pretty empathetic.  But that empathy has limits.  What follows may not be a popular opinion.

I look at the vax mandates as a (hopefully) once in a lifetime opportunity to thin the ranks of problematic people in the military, law enforcement, and other industries.  If you're not willing to get a shot in the arm to protect others, what else are you not willing to do to protect others?


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 3, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I look at the vax mandates as a (hopefully) once in a lifetime opportunity to thin the ranks of problematic people in the military, law enforcement, and other industries.


Dr Mengele I presume?


----------



## SLyardsale (Jan 3, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I think of myself as pretty empathetic.  But that empathy has limits.  What follows may not be a popular opinion.
> 
> I look at the vax mandates as a (hopefully) once in a lifetime opportunity to thin the ranks of problematic people in the military, law enforcement, and other industries.  If you're not willing to get a shot in the arm to protect others, what else are you not willing to do to protect others?


 What does this have to do with anything ?? and is a ridiculous take.  At this point, mandates are problematic for all industries.  Once Comirnaty is readily available in the US for all, then this would be more of a discussion.  Let me know when I can get my Comirnaty 4th booster.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 3, 2022)

Wow what a mess!

I'm tired of hearing from either "side" at this point. Pretty shocking how entrenched we have become. 

Utterly pitiful as well.


----------



## jimk (Jan 3, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I think of myself as pretty empathetic.  But that empathy has limits.  What follows may not be a popular opinion.
> 
> I look at the vax mandates as a (hopefully) once in a lifetime opportunity to thin the ranks of problematic people in the military, law enforcement, and other industries.  If you're not willing to get a shot in the arm to protect others, what else are you not willing to do to protect others?


That's one way to look at it.  
I think more simply that it's an example of Darwin's Law.  Those that don't get vaxxed die at a higher rate from covid than those that do.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 3, 2022)

If folks haven't listened to the 2 recent Joe Rogan podcasts with Dr Peter McCullough and Dr Robert Malone (Dr Malone was a principle investigator of the research group that in essence developed the mRNA technology) I would highly suggest that you give them a listen

Scientific citation after citation and tons of insight from both the research and clinician perspective on COVID and how it has been handled


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> If folks haven't listened to the 2 recent Joe Rogan podcasts with Dr Peter McCullough and Dr Robert Malone (Dr Malone was a principle investigator of the research group that in essence developed the mRNA technology) I would highly suggest that you give them a listen
> 
> Scientific citation after citation and tons of insight from both the research and clinician perspective on COVID and how it has been handled


A lot will simply dismiss them because you know Joe Rogan is evil, but they were actually really good interviews if you took the time to listen


----------



## SLyardsale (Jan 3, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> A lot will simply dismiss them because you know Joe Rogan is evil, but they were actually really good interviews if you took the time to listen


Agree.  McCullough and Malone are worth listening too. Not a sound bite or MSM thing, so most will simply dismiss as you say.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

I have a hard time taking Malone seriously after reading his website.  






						Robert W Malone MD
					






					www.rwmalonemd.com
				




Altruistic doctor looking to help things? No agenda other than for the good of man. 

Or 

Opportunistic doctor who knows many media outlets right now will pay him very well because there's a lot of people out there who he will resonate with.  

Hmmm......

What's his take on demon sperm?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 3, 2022)

lol that website is some quack shit. joe rogan. quack quack quack. bunch of quacking ducks.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 3, 2022)

Rogans not evil.  He's a dumbass and a usefull idiot.  self described Moron. 

Only episodes worth listening to are when he's tripping balls with Duncan.  Maybe a few other with comedians who don't kiss his ass:  Burr, Ari, Chapelle.

now he just has people on who have books to sell.  
as the saying goes, he's just Oprah for dudes.

Joeprah


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 3, 2022)

How about you guys watch the interview and site what Dr. Malone said that is inaccurate . I honestly would like to know what he said that's not true .


----------



## boston_e (Jan 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> IDr Malone was a principle investigator of the research group that in essence developed the mRNA technology


Katalin Kariko and Drew Weissman say hi.









						False: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.
					

It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.




					www.logically.ai


----------



## boston_e (Jan 3, 2022)

Not Sure said:


> How about you guys watch the interview and site what Dr. Malone said that is inaccurate . I honestly would like to know what he said that's not true .


The part where he claims to have invented mRNA vaccines









						False: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.
					

It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.




					www.logically.ai


----------



## drjeff (Jan 3, 2022)

boston_e said:


> Katalin Kariko and Drew Weissman say hi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Umm, I said Dr Malone was A principle investigator, not was THE principle investigator..  

The reality is that it was a group of researchers/clinicians from numerous organizations over many years who were involved with mRNA technology development


----------



## boston_e (Jan 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Umm, I said Dr Malone was A principle investigator, not was THE principle investigator..
> 
> The reality is that it was a group of researchers/clinicians from numerous organizations over many years who were involved with mRNA technology development


Fine but the first line of his website: “as the original inventor of mRNA and DNA vaccines”…. He starts off as not credible.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 4, 2022)

"a" inventor or "the" inventor.

imagine if we spent time discussing if covid hospitalization and death stats are "with" covid or "from" covid?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2022)

What is the definition of is?


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> "a" inventor or "the" inventor.
> 
> imagine if we spent time discussing if covid hospitalization and death stats are "with" covid or "from" covid?


Speaking to MSNBC's Ayman Mohyeldin, who was filling in for Rachel Maddow on Wednesday night, Fauci suggested that some of the children currently being treated at medical facilities were hospitalized with COVID as opposed to "because of COVID."

There seems to be some recognition of the difference now


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2022)

I also believe that more people are testing positive as more people have access to home test kits and are testing themselves especially around the holidays. Even though they are asymptomatic.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I also believe that more people are testing positive as more people have access to home test kits and are testing themselves especially around the holidays. Even though they are asymptomatic.



those tests arent hitting the case numbers if they weren't administered by a provider, so whats your point?


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

The positive home tests for asymptomatic hit the system when those who get a home positive then go into confirm their status as recommended.

All the while still being asymptomatic.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

the overwhelming majority of those people are not going in for further testing. at least not in city centers where its a big pain in the ass to stand online at cityMD for 2+ hours just to confirm what you already know and you don't even feel sick


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the overwhelming majority of those people are not going in for further testing. at least not in city centers where its a big pain in the ass to stand online at cityMD for 2+ hours just to confirm what you already know and you don't even feel sick


Everyone I know (at least 6 asymptomatic) has followed the recomendations because they wanted to know if they NEEDED to stand down. Many took multiple test before testing clean. 
YMMV


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> All the while still being asymptomatic.


Asymptomatic people are infectious also.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Asymptomatic people are infectious also.


They sure are but how many are out there? No one knows but some studies show that number is pretty high, which means they are out there functioning and not dying. 

How do we justify closing down important functions of everyday life when we don’t know who is truly sick and when the consequences of exposure for (vaccinated adults) are no longer “crushing”?

We are now educated on what covid is and who is at most risk. If you are at high risk, get the shot and wear a mask. Don’t ride the box. Stay home if thats the only way you feel safe. I will do my part too. When I feel sick I promise I will stay home, something I was taught NOT to do as an apprentice.

We risk our lives every time we get behind the wheel of a car. If not “dying in a car wreck” is the most important thing to you, don’t get in a car. I can respect that.

I value being able to move around more than some others. I evaluated the risk and I feel it’s time to live with it.


----------



## EPB (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I need an excuse to dismiss someone with credentials that won't confirm my priors. Laughing at this guy's website without any actual critique should suffice. I bet a couple people with thumbs up my post for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fixed that last post for you.

It's so sad what this place has become. I used to really love it here. Guess I'll try again next year. 

"Vaccines are safe and effective" may well become this generation's "there are WMDs in Iraq". We've seen this movie before. Hysterical left wing COVID hawks = Hysterical neo-con war hawks. Fear begets rational risk/reward analysis, and things devolve. Get ready for it to come out that the vaccines we all got (yes I'm on team jab) are all but useless against Omicron. Not to mention they don't do anything to help children who can handly fight COVID (if they have no co-morbidities). Healthy kids are more likely to get hit by the school bus than die of COVID. It's ALL downside for those kids, and way to many people don't get it, don't care, or a combination of the two. It's disgusting.

Not that my predictions can go to the bank, but perhaps the firiest thing I said in Spring 2020 was that "Andrew Cuomo is an idiot" just to jog your memory . 

All the best. I mean it because I remember a time when the cast of characters in here were better versions of themselves. I regret to report I got so much happier when I left. After some disappointment on the lack of improvement here, I trust I'll be better off elsewhere this year, too.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

dont let the door hit you on the way out.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> those tests arent hitting the case numbers if they weren't administered by a provider, so whats your point?


My point is when they do test positive then they go in to get the real test. Before this they didn’t even know and didn’t get tested at all.


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> They sure are but how many are out there? No one knows but some studies show that number is pretty high, which means they are out there functioning and not dying.
> 
> How do we justify closing down important functions of everyday life when we don’t know who is truly sick and when the consequences of exposure for (vaccinated adults) are no longer “crushing”?
> 
> ...


Define not crushing?

My worry from the start has always been the impact on our health and hospital systems. We don’t have a lot of extra capacity at all. And while the data suggests omnicron is less severe on the lungs, and we have a much larger number of individuals vaxxed or with some level of protection from previous infections along with a better understanding of how to treat + therapeutics, something so contagious can still have a big impact even if it puts a smaller number of infected in the hospital system.

Pre COVID-19 we were regularly running at 75+ % capacity  nationwide with our hospital system... and that would spike to 85-90% during a regular flu season (higher if it was a bad one). So even small spikes in hospitalization impact the system.

We have been flat out in many areas of the country for two years… this system is powered by skilled humans. I really do worry about the long term impact on all hospital care as this continues. Humans burn out. Humans make mistakes when stressed. Patients can be negatively impacted when procedures are delayed or preventative screenings are missed because of lack of resources. A close friend has an infant who needs a procedure, it is still considered "elective" at this point but in normal times he would have had it two months ago. Has been postponed on them twice. Likely will be again in Feb. That sucks.

And not advocating for closures or anything... just pointing out that this continues to really strain our finite health resources even though most of us are "over it."


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My point is when they do test positive then they go in to get the real test. Before this they didn’t even know and didn’t get tested at all.



It seems like with the at home tesing, that if one does test positive, and has little to no symptoms, that given the turn around time for much of the PCR testing done right now, that many medical providers as well as some public health officials, are starting to discourage those with a positive at home test from getting a PCR, and just presume your at home test is valid, "quarrantine" at home for 5 days, and all good. Unless one's job/school specifically needs to see a negative PCR for "return to normal" status, the vast majority who test positive with just mild symptoms, really don't need a PCR confirmation right now.

Now if we want to get into the nitty gritty of why after almost 2 years, we DON'T have a larger scale, more efficient testing system, especially given all of the COVID relief $$ that has been allocated via various COVID spending bills passed thusfar, that I think is a very relevant topic that should be discussed, but likely many governmental and public health officials don't want to be pressed on


----------



## mikec142 (Jan 4, 2022)

Not Sure said:


> Dr Mengele I presume?


Uh...that's some awful leap of logic...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2022)

eastern powder baby said:


> Fixed that last post for you.
> 
> It's so sad what this place has become. I used to really love it here. Guess I'll try again next year.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you feel that way and I've always respected your opinions and posting style even when we disagree on topics.

This would be one of those times.  I simply read that website and don't see a see a serious MD.  I see someone that does know more about medicine than I ever will.  Malone has accomplished a lot.   But there is a major movement of people fighting back against mandates.  You see it in this thread.  The right wing has turned "mandates" into a big scary word like "socialism" or "antifa" .  Or how about "big pharma".  It's a rallying cry.  So, it's an opportunity to get airtime with a specific audience and make a name for himself. 

Serious MDs looking to make change are using channels such as NEJM to influence change and build coalition, not talk shows like JoePrah.  I can't take Malone seriously for the same reason I don't take Dr Oz or Sanjay Gupta seriously.  They're about being stars and making money. That's it.  

Anyways, if you do move on, I'll miss your contributions and I wish for you a great season.


----------



## EPB (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and I've always respected your opinions and posting style even when we disagree on topics.
> 
> This would be one of those times.  I simply read that website and don't see a see a serious MD.  I see someone that does know more about medicine than I ever will.  Malone has accomplished a lot.   But there is a major movement of people fighting back against mandates.  You see it in this thread.  The right wing has turned "mandates" into a big scary word like "socialism" or "antifa" .  Or how about "big pharma".  It's a rallying cry.  So, it's an opportunity to get airtime with a specific audience and make a name for himself.
> 
> ...


I'll take offline. Too much snarky b***s**t from me - my apologies. Your post just happened to be the one that put my disappointment over the top. 

I've lurked a few times here and there and found this and Vail Sucks essentially running the show. The negativity isn't fun, but that was a bad way for me to vocalize. EPB.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

SnowRock said:


> Define not crushing?
> 
> My worry from the start has always been the impact on our health and hospital systems. We don’t have a lot of extra capacity at all. And while the data suggests omnicron is less severe on the lungs, and we have a much larger number of individuals vaxxed or with some level of protection from previous infections along with a better understanding of how to treat + therapeutics, something so contagious can still have a big impact even if it puts a smaller number of infected in the hospital system.
> 
> ...


That’s valid
My only comments would be I have heard doctors say they are also crushed with patients that should have come in during 2020 (with Covid as well) and now things can become beyond control. That demand will hopefully wane. 

As it also appears this virus seems to weaken as it mutates it seems like at some point this will feel more like the general Flu which when it showed up in 1918 and killed 50,000,000 at time before the global movement patterns we see today.

Missing 4% of the workers due to what I feel will be looked back as an over reaction would have helped too.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and I've always respected your opinions and posting style even when we disagree on topics.
> 
> This would be one of those times.  I simply read that website and don't see a see a serious MD.  I see someone that does know more about medicine than I ever will.  Malone has accomplished a lot.   But there is a major movement of people fighting back against mandates.  You see it in this thread.  The right wing has turned "mandates" into a big scary word like "socialism" or "antifa" .  Or how about "big pharma".  It's a rallying cry.  So, it's an opportunity to get airtime with a specific audience and make a name for himself.
> 
> ...


You do know them at a significant portion of the far left is also antivax too right?

It amazes me that a significant portion of my college aged sons friends who were at and supporting BLM marches that refuse to vaccinate.

Many of which are now Covid positive. Go figure.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

the hippie dippity burning man anti vax idiots are a teeny tiny percentage of the overall anti vax idiots, who are predominantly of the right, and you know it.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> You do know them at a significant portion of the far left is also antivax too right?
> 
> It amazes me that a significant portion of my college aged sons friends who were at and supporting BLM marches that refuse to vaccinate.
> 
> Many of which are now Covid positive. Go figure.


Its the right-wing people that are making it their identity to be anti-vax at this point. Left-wing people without the vax are being looked down upon by their own party. Get beyond the partisan bs that is infecting people even worse than Covid.


----------



## machski (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Asymptomatic people are infectious also.


True, but when are/were they infectious?  If they are asymptomatic and just happen to do a home self test some particular day, do they have a clue WHEN they got infected?  It is possible by the time they test they are no longer or minimally infectious on the way to not.  This is the hard part with asymptomatic folks.  Unless they are testing daily, hard to track their infectious period.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Its the right-wing people that are making it their identity to be anti-vax at this point. Left-wing people without the vax are being looked down upon by their own party. Get beyond the partisan bs that is infecting people even worse than Covid.


the people I know that I am qualifying as far left do not identify with either party. Most consider themselves Socialists and want nothing to do with Democratic Party.

Yes and some have gone to burning man and it may be a smaller percentage but it’s out there.
To ignore it is just refusing to look beyond your own hang ups. It’s just easier if there is only one boogie man to blame for all of our troubles.


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

machski said:


> True, but when are/were they infectious?  If they are asymptomatic and just happen to do a home self test some particular day, do they have a clue WHEN they got infected? * It is possible* by the time they test they are no longer or minimally infectious on the way to not.  This is the hard part with asymptomatic folks.  Unless they are testing daily, hard to track their infectious period.


It is also possible that that they're just at the beginning of becoming infective!

Throwing the baby out with the bath water?


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> the people I know that I am qualifying as far left do not identify with either party. Most consider themselves Socialists and want nothing to do with Democratic Party.
> 
> Yes and some have gone to burning man and it may be a smaller percentage but it’s out there.
> To ignore it is just refusing to look beyond your own hang ups. It’s just easier if there is only one boogie man to blame for all of our troubles.


I don’t need any boogie men theres plenty of real morons out there already. My political beliefs would surprise you, they are irrelevant though. Fact of the matter is the main purveyors of anti-vax ideology are right-wing at the moment.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the hippie dippity burning man anti vax idiots are a teeny tiny percentage of the overall anti vax idiots, who are predominantly of the right, and you know it.



When per CDC data,  just over 10% of the African American population is fully vaccinated (and the African American population makes up just under 13% of the total US population per 2021 data), that's a sizable number of unvaccinated (likely about 30 million people) whom I think we can agree tends to vote left way more than right.









						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov
				




This virus unfortunately HAS become politcized, and that it just a terrible thing that regardless of one's ideological leanings, we all should be upset with our various politcial figures AND the media for the role that they have played, and are still often playing, in COVID


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 4, 2022)

imagine if the "anti-vaxers" were actually anti-vax?  like, demanding that vaccines be banned, and that anyone who takes the vaccine be terminated from their job?


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

drjeff said:


> This virus unfortunately HAS become politcized, and that it just a terrible thing that regardless of one's ideological leanings, we all should be upset with our various politcial figures AND the media for the role that they have played, and are still often playing, in COVID


Care to guess who started to make the virus a political one? Remember when it was "just a hoax"?

Once it's politicized, it's much harder to "unpoliticize" it!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Care to guess who started to make the virus a political one? Remember when it was "just a hoax"?
> 
> Once it's politicized, it's much harder to "unpoliticize" it!


And I seem to remeber as well that the current occupant of the Whitehouse as well as the current VP and many of the leadership of the Democrat party also had plenty of anti-vaxx hyperbole prior to the 2020 elections just before the vaccines rolled out to the general public.

Again, BOTH parties have plenty of blame from the outset, during, and still for so many things COVID.

The common denominator in this often is our government, and not just one's ideology, as both parties seem to govern in a way to help rile up their bases to keep them in power, rather than govern in a way that is best for the country as a whole


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2022)

I handle Covid tracking at my place of employment.  Anecdotally, it seems like the vaccine is pretty ineffective against Omicron.  We are seeing all sorts of breakthrough cases.  Fortunately nobody has gotten that sick, regardless of their vaccination status. 

Vermont just recorded 1,700 cases today - which likely doesn't include a lot of the results from the home test kits that they handed out a couple of weeks ago.  We have been blowing daily records out of the water.

My hunch is that Omicron will peak in the next couple of weeks and by early spring we should enjoy the beginning of a nice quiet period.

It is interesting how, now that the laptop class is getting sick with Covid, they are no longer shaming people for it.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 4, 2022)

drjeff said:


> When per CDC data,  just over 10% of the African American population is fully vaccinated (and the African American population makes up just under 13% of the total US population per 2021 data), that's a sizable number of unvaccinated (likely about 30 million people) whom I think we can agree tends to vote left way more than right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hate chiming in on these threads but what you stated above is a gross bit of misinformation.  per the cdc, african americans make up 10% of the total vaccinated population.  Not as you stated, "just over 10% of the African American population is fully vaccinated". 
Per the CDC, *"Between November 29 and December 13, vaccination rates increased by 1.0 percentage points for Black people (from 50.3% to 51.3%), by 1.1 percentage points for Hispanic people (from 55.3% to 56.4%), and by 1.2 percentage points for Asian people (from 75.3% to 76.5%). In contrast, they remained roughly stable for White people (at 58%). Over the course of the vaccination rollout, differences between vaccination rates for Black, Hispanic, and White people have narrowed, and the gap between rates for White and Hispanic people has nearly closed. Between late April 2021, when most adults became eligible for vaccines across states, and December 13, 2021, the gap in vaccination rates between White and Black people fell from 14 percentage points (38% vs. 24%) to 7 percentage points (58% vs. 51%) while the difference between White and Hispanic vaccination rates decreased from 13 percentage points (38% vs. 25%) to two percentage points (58% vs. 56%).*


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> I hate chiming in on these threads but what you stated above is a gross bit of misinformation.  per the cdc, african americans make up 10% of the total vaccinated population.  Not as you stated, "just over 10% of the African American population is fully vaccinated".
> Per the CDC, *"Between November 29 and December 13, vaccination rates increased by 1.0 percentage points for Black people (from 50.3% to 51.3%), by 1.1 percentage points for Hispanic people (from 55.3% to 56.4%), and by 1.2 percentage points for Asian people (from 75.3% to 76.5%). In contrast, they remained roughly stable for White people (at 58%). Over the course of the vaccination rollout, differences between vaccination rates for Black, Hispanic, and White people have narrowed, and the gap between rates for White and Hispanic people has nearly closed. Between late April 2021, when most adults became eligible for vaccines across states, and December 13, 2021, the gap in vaccination rates between White and Black people fell from 14 percentage points (38% vs. 24%) to 7 percentage points (58% vs. 51%) while the difference between White and Hispanic vaccination rates decreased from 13 percentage points (38% vs. 25%) to two percentage points (58% vs. 56%).*




Thank you for clarifying that. 

My underlying point still holds though with only just over 50% of the African American community vaccinated thus far, which is still millions of people, and they very often aren't of the Far Right as Kusty was insinuating is making up the bulk of the non vaccinated problem now the way that I read that OP


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Care to guess who started to make the virus a political one? Remember when it was "just a hoax"?


In the context it was actually said, he was 100 percent correct, and judging by the way things went down last election cycle, the current people in power were highly successful at using the pandemic for political gains.   

Also if you think we didn't do enough early on, perhaps you should be looking to government bureaucratic hacks like Anthony Fauci pretending to be an expert in public health.  I guess the evil orange man does deserve 100 percent of the blame for not firing that guy long before he was allowed to implement disastrous public health policy on this country


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 4, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Thank you for clarifying that.
> 
> My underlying point still holds though with only just over 50% of the African American community vaccinated thus far, which is still millions of people, and they very often aren't of the Far Right as Kusty was insinuating is making up the bulk of the non vaccinated problem now the way that I read that OP


your point does not hold.  the percent of african americans vaccinated is just below that of whites and hispanics.  There is no significant difference but you can believe what you want to believe.  The facts are that republicans, be they white, black hispanic, green or whatever, make up the lions share of the unvaccinated.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 4, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I also believe that more people are testing positive as more people have access to home test kits and are testing themselves especially around the holidays. Even though they are asymptomatic.


Those tests are NOT accurate if you are asymptomatic !!!!!!
 At home tests are for Day 3 w/ symptoms


----------



## boston_e (Jan 4, 2022)

drjeff said:


> And I seem to remeber as well that the current occupant of the Whitehouse as well as the current VP and many of the leadership of the Democrat party also had plenty of anti-vaxx hyperbole prior to the 2020 elections just before the vaccines rolled out to the general public.


You only remember that because you listened to right wing media who took Biden's comments out of context to stir up the base.

What Biden actually said was: "Let me be clear. I trust vaccines. I trust scientists. But I don't trust Donald Trump."  (Which given how Trump had botched the handling of the pandemic to that point was a very fair statement)

This idea that Biden and Harris were spouting antivax / distrust of vaccines was declared false by Politifact:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> your point does not hold.  the percent of african americans vaccinated is just below that of whites and hispanics.  There is no significant difference but you can believe what you want to believe.  The facts are that republicans, be they white, black hispanic, green or whatever, make up the lions share of the unvaccinated.


So in the past, education level was always the #1 factor in determining attitudes towards vaccines/vaccination status at large. As this pandemic has continued, party affiliation has risen to the top of the list.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2022)

boston_e said:


> You only remember that because you listened to right wing media who took Biden's comments out of context to stir up the base.
> 
> What Biden actually said was: "Let me be clear. I trust vaccines. I trust scientists. But I don't trust Donald Trump."  (Which given how Trump had botched the handling of the pandemic to that point was a very fair statement)
> 
> ...



It was still a really shitty thing to say.  They knew that the FDA approved vaccines - not Trump.  It was meant to plant the seed of doubt in Trump's ability to get a vaccine out there - and the only reason they said it was for their own political gain.

Harris also said this with no evidence whatsoever (and to date no evidence):
_When asked by Bash whether she thought that public health experts and scientists would get the last word on the efficacy of a vaccine, Harris predicted that they will not.
"If past is prologue that they will not, they'll be muzzled, they'll be suppressed, they will be sidelined," Harris said._

Here is what the actual person in charge had to say:
_Moncef Slaoui, the chief adviser to Operation Warp Speed, said in an interview with Science published Thursday that he would resign from his role if there was undue interference in the Covid-19 vaccine effort.
*"I have to say there has been absolutely no interference,"* he continued, adding that he would be "out" if he saw a push for a US Food and Drug Administration emergency use authorization that he didn't believe in._

So, yeah,  Harris was at best reckless in her comments.  Her words were chosen very carefully, but the intent was to undermine the public's confidence in any vaccine that was developed under the Trump administration - despite evidence that Trump had not interfered with the process.  That's shameless. 

But I'm old enough to remember when it was racist to ban flights from certain countries to stem the spread and Covid and to put kids in cages.  How quickly that changed once the shoe was on the other foot.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

are we really comparing arbitrary bans on muslim countries because they are muslim to banning travel to (at least try to) curb a novel disease that was spiraling out of control worldwide?

and it was trump who was openly pressuring to rush vaccine approvals for the election, which is what cast doubt on the legitimacy of the approvals.

some of the takes on this board are fucking insane.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

only 10% of black people are vaccinated.

there were many fine people on both sides in charlottesville.

joe rogan.

happy jan 6-iversary!


----------



## NYDB (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> only 10% of black people are vaccinated.


stats that are unbelievable (and wrong) make sense when they confirm your world view.  

Epistemic closure ftw!


----------



## 1dog (Jan 4, 2022)

Best ( non-political) science-backed 2 Dr. info I've heard on the subject - if one is willing to invest the time.





Dark Horse Podcast is really worth the listen.


If not, hows this: Germany 71.1% vaxxed sample patients hospitalized and testing positive for Omi-96% are fully ( i.e; triple vaxxed)- remaining 4% were unvaxxed.

And then there's this:


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> government bureaucratic hacks like Anthony Fauci pretending to be an expert in public health.


Do I need to read the rest of the post?  

I'm sure a lot of the talk show host, especially the one on FOX, are far better qualified "expert in public health"!


----------



## cdskier (Jan 4, 2022)

1dog said:


> If not, hows this: Germany 71.1% vaxxed sample patients hospitalized and testing positive for Omi-96% are fully ( i.e; triple vaxxed)- remaining 4% were unvaxxed.











						Fact Check-German institute did not report 96% of Omicron cases fully vaccinated
					

Some social media users are sharing claims that a weekly report by the Robert Koch Institute (RKI) showed that 95.58% of Omicron cases in Germany are among the fully vaccinated. The claims are partly based on a mistake in an RKI report that has since been corrected.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> are we really comparing arbitrary bans on muslim countries because they are muslim to banning travel to (at least try to) curb a novel disease that was spiraling out of control worldwide?



No.  We are talking about Trump banning flights from China during the onset of Covid-19.


----------



## boston_e (Jan 4, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Harris also said this with no evidence whatsoever (and to date no evidence):
> _When asked by Bash whether she thought that public health experts and scientists would get the last word on the efficacy of a vaccine, Harris predicted that they will not.
> "If past is prologue that they will not, they'll be muzzled, they'll be suppressed, they will be sidelined," Harris said._
> 
> ...


At that point, Trump had already shown he was more than willing to silence / muzzle public health officials and to control the messaging on the pandemic for his own political purposes, so the comments "if past is prologue" are completely understandable.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 4, 2022)

And someone accused me of inventing hate when I accused us all of being cranky.

Fact is our current government loves when we fight with each other like this which really pisses me off.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2022)

boston_e said:


> At that point, Trump had already shown he was more than willing to silence / muzzle public health officials and to control the messaging on the pandemic for his own political purposes, so the comments "if past is prologue" are completely understandable.



Did you miss the part where the head of the entire program said that there was zero interference from Trump?


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol that website is some quack shit. joe rogan. quack quack quack. bunch of quacking ducks.


Says KustythenotalentassKlown.  About what I'd expect from a law school loser, incubation chamber for lawyer jokes.


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

boston_e said:


> At that point, Trump had already shown he was more than willing to silence / muzzle public health officials and to control the messaging on the pandemic for his own political purposes, so the comments "if past is prologue" are completely understandable.


+1



VTKilarney said:


> Did you miss the part where the head of the entire program said that there was zero interference from Trump?


Trump doesn't need to interfere when things are the way he wish for.

In a sense, we were "lucky" that the first candidate vaccine also happened to be the safest and more effective. Because one never know had the vaccine trial turned out to be less safe, or less effective, there's no telling if the "zero interference" would hold.

Just look at the Russian vaccines developed under a government that also "doesn't interfere".


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and I've always respected your opinions and posting style even when we disagree on topics.
> 
> This would be one of those times.  I simply read that website and don't see a see a serious MD.  I see someone that does know more about medicine than I ever will.  Malone has accomplished a lot.   But there is a major movement of people fighting back against mandates.  You see it in this thread.  The right wing has turned "mandates" into a big scary word like "socialism" or "antifa" .  Or how about "big pharma".  It's a rallying cry.  So, it's an opportunity to get airtime with a specific audience and make a name for himself.
> 
> ...


He invented mRNA technology.  Extremeley credible.   Malone could have made tens or hundreds of millions to push the jabs like the Fauci's of the world.

How does that compare that the financial incentive for big pharma to promote lies to further a brand new Trillion dollar market?  They can afford to hire armies of trolls to post bullshit,  some on this site.


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Says KustythenotalentassKlown.  About what I'd expect from a law school loser, incubation chamber for lawyer jokes.





Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> He invented mRNA technology.  Extremeley credible.   Malone could have made tens or hundreds of millions to push the jabs like the Fauci's of the world.
> 
> How does that compare that the financial incentive for big pharma to promote lies to further a brand new Trillion dollar market?  They can afford to hire armies of trolls to post bullshit,  some on this site.


With those examples above...


deadheadskier said:


> I've always respected your opinions *and posting style* even when we disagree on topics.


Seriously? 

I guess the forum isn't going downhill. It's in the direction it's expected to go...


----------



## cdskier (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> With those examples above...
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I guess the forum isn't going downhill. It's in the direction it's expected to go...


Eh? What does dhs's quote that was directed at eastern powder baby have to do with the other posts you quoted from an entirely different person?


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> With those examples above...
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I guess the forum isn't going downhill. It's in the direction it's expected to go...


The guy has threatened people with violence and your surprised he has upset some folk?

Come on


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> +1
> 
> 
> Trump doesn't need to interfere when things are the way he wish for.
> ...



That’s a long winded way of saying that Trump did nothing wrong in regard to the vaccine development.

I’m no defender of Trump, but I can acknowledge when something goes well and the recklessness of what Biden and Harris said.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> The guy has threatened people with violence and your surprised he has upset some folk?
> 
> Come on



Please you drama lamma.  Point me to one post I threatened violence in any way that wasn't being facetious.   Sure, I'm pro-mandate and that's largely because I've been subjected to them for a decade and it's no big deal.  But actually assaulting people to get the shot? No.

You on the other hand challenged Krusty come find you at Sunday River to settle your differences. 

Let's be real Andrew, EVERY single one of your posts the past two years has been in one of the Covid threads pushing your agenda.  It's your only reason for being here.  On a skiing message board!!

Lol. Wow


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Please you drama lamma.  Point me to one post I threatened violence in any way that wasn't being facetious.   Sure, I'm pro-mandate and that's largely because I've been subjected to them for a decade and it's no big deal.  But actually assaulting people to get the shot? No.
> 
> You on the other hand challenged Krusty come find you at Sunday River to settle your differences.


I wasn’t talking about you and as KK would say and you know that.

He threatens me twice (while the moderator did nothing) before I simply stand up to him and suddenly I am the aggressor??? 

He threatens to stab me with a screwdriver since and still no response from the supposed adult in the room but to blame me?

As you say lol


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Says KustythenotalentassKlown.  About what I'd expect from a law school loser, incubation chamber for lawyer jokes.



good one. you're very witty.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> He invented mRNA technology.  Extremeley credible.   Malone could have made tens or hundreds of millions to push the jabs like the Fauci's of the world.
> 
> How does that compare that the financial incentive for big pharma to promote lies to further a brand new Trillion dollar market?  They can afford to hire armies of trolls to post bullshit,  some on this site.



Sure he could have

Hey, did you also hear Betty White died from the booster shot?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

fuckin quack doc with a squarespace website with awful format and design.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> your point does not hold.  the percent of african americans vaccinated is just below that of whites and hispanics.  There is no significant difference but you can believe what you want to believe.  The facts are that republicans, be they white, black hispanic, green or whatever, make up the lions share of the unvaccinated.


Respectfully, per that CDC graph I referenced about the race/ethnicity of those who have received vaccinations as of December 30th, 2021, the


KustyTheKlown said:


> fuckin quack doc with a squarespace website with awful format and design.


Here we go Kusty....

I was incorrect with what I posted earlier today. I made an assumption of the data (without CLOSELY looking at the labeling on each axis of the graph) based on intrinsic bias that I have acquired from the countless stories over the last year since the vaccines rolled out to the general public on NBC Nightly News that is on in my house most every night (true since I realized long ago that if I want to stay married to my strongly liberal leaning wife that that was the news show that was going to be on the TV as we're making dinner, and it has been that way for close to 15yrs) about vaccine inequity in African American communities that often have ties back to the Tuskegee airman syphilis experiments that the government ran on that community. 

As I did already in this thread in an adult fashion, I quickly acknowledged that I was incorrect when it was pointed out.

Now let's just say that in the coming weeks/months you find out that a good deal of what Dr Malone is saying is indeed true. Will you be adult enough to admit you were wrong?

Since much of what is creating problems in this country now is stemmed in the inability for people of differing viewpoints to own when they might actually be incorrect (see my various posts about our leaders often putting their caucus before the country as a means to maintain power) I would hope that at somepoint via what often happens from more and more life experiences that age brings (but often we don't get when we're in our 20's and 30's) folks start to mellow and get that underneath it all while we may look a different on the outside, we're 99.999% the same on the inside.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 4, 2022)

Our family has been torn apart by the politics of the whole thing..... 1/2 Vaxx'd,  1/2 No Way, Never

Now we have 2 very sick UnVaxx'd in the same household w/ 2 disabled  people and my 85yo mother in law.
Complete Shit Show !!!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Our family has been torn apart by the politics of the whole thing..... 1/2 Vaxx'd,  1/2 No Way, Never
> 
> Now we have 2 very sick UnVaxx'd in the same household w/ 2 disabled  people and my 85yo mother in law.
> Complete Shit Show !!!


Sorry to hear that.

The BS around this whole thing and how it's the source of so much fear porn and conspiracy theory crap from both sides is just atrocious.

Hope your sick family members get better and your healthy, at risk family members stay healthy.


----------



## boston_e (Jan 4, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> He invented mRNA technology.


No he didn’t.  He may have done some research in the early stages of the technology but was not the inventor.









						False: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.
					

It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.




					www.logically.ai


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Will you be adult enough to admit you were wrong?



That side will never admit when they are wrong, the science will just "evolve" so they don't have to


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Our family has been torn apart by the politics of the whole thing.....



No reason it has to be that way, whichever way you view things, but that's the sad state of affairs in our current world


----------



## skiur (Jan 5, 2022)

If you can't separate politics from personal life then that's just kinda sad.


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> That side will never admit when they are wrong, the science will just "evolve" so they don't have to


Science is indeed always "evolving". Would anyone who follow Newton's law have to "admit" he's wrong when Einstein came up with General Relativity? You know, they don't have to, they just "adapt".

On the "other side", we know a stopped clock can be "right" twice a day. It's just plain "wrong" the rest of the day.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> That side will never admit when they are wrong, the science will just "evolve" so they don't have to





icecoast1 said:


> No reason it has to be that way, whichever way you view things, but that's the sad state of affairs in our current world



Kind of amusing to read these two statements back to back.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 5, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> No reason it has to be that way, whichever way you view things, but that's the sad state of affairs in our current world


Very true. But the ones who were extremely vocal and political about it are now wishing they were not so...

 PS remind me NEVER to go to a local community hospital, when you have several "Level 1" Academic Medical Centers w/ in 30 mins to choose from


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> remind me NEVER to go to a local community hospital, when you have several "Level 1" Academic Medical Centers w/ in 30 mins to choose from


What's the difference? 

Or rather, how do I tell the difference? (if I were to avoid one)


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Our family has been torn apart by the politics of the whole thing..... 1/2 Vaxx'd,  1/2 No Way, Never
> 
> Now we have 2 very sick UnVaxx'd in the same household w/ 2 disabled  people and my 85yo mother in law.
> Complete Shit Show !!!


Sorry it is so contentious in your family.  We had a smaller than typical xmas eve gathering and explained to the anti-vax / covid denier cousin / aunt that we were not comfortable having someone unvaxed and untested around my mid-80's folks.  They were pissed but we politely held firm.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as torn apart or not.


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> Sorry it is so contentious in your family.  We had a smaller than typical xmas eve gathering and explained to the anti-vax / covid denier cousin / aunt that we were not comfortable having someone unvaxed and untested around my mid-80's folks.  They were pissed but we politely held firm.  *I'm not sure if that qualifies as torn apart or not*.


I told one of my friend that I support his freedom of choice. But I would not share any small indoor space with him. He was disappointed but politely accepts the consequence of his decision.

Again, "*I'm not sure if that qualifies as torn apart or not*"


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 5, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Today Rhode Island announced that Covid positive healthcare workers will be allowed to go back to work if staffing shortages require it.
> 
> Staffing shortages that would be 4% less if they didn’t fire those people.


Following Dr Jeff's lead, I'll admit that I had not seen this news about Rhode Island, and it appears that RI Dept of Public health has opened up this potential option under narrow circumstances (has to be asymptomatic, N95 mask, staffing needs to be at an otherwise crisis level, patients have to be notified etc).  It is unclear if this has actually happened yet.  It is also difficult to know what the true story is because when you google it, most of what comes up seems to be on far-right media channels and obviously very slanted.

With that said, I still fully support hospitals mandating the vaccine for their employees.


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 5, 2022)

So a friend of mine has also been pushing this Dr. Malone stuff.. i told him I would look at his site with an open mind, but the challenge is that right out of the gates he is trying to claim singular credit as the original innovator of "mRNA and DNA vaccines" which is just not true. While there may sometimes be a "father/mother of" a particular therapeutic or vaccine modality,  in this case if you were to credit anyone with that role it would be the duo of Kariko and Weissman. He absolutely played a role but claiming singular credit like that made me skeptical. 

Later on it tries to suggest he invented the platform? But they don't really describe what that means.... I know he was not a seminal researcher on the delivery tech via LNP which was fundamental to establish the platform. A different group of scientist have already won a Nobel prize for that work.

Then I see he consistently calls the Vaccines, "Gene Therapy." Which is absolutely not true and used to purposefully to mislead the public about how the messenger RNA vax actually works in the body. The mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy full stop. 

I'm sure none of this change anyone's mind on Malone... but do some research into how actual gene therapy works. Yes gene therapy can be delivered via viral vectors or lipid packages like vaccines, but the mRNA vaccines DO NOT alter your genes or replace a mutated gene with a functional one. 

If he is being disingenuous about those things i can't really believe anything he says is credible.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 5, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> Following Dr Jeff's lead, I'll admit that I had not seen this news about Rhode Island, and it appears that RI Dept of Public health has opened up this potential option under narrow circumstances (has to be asymptomatic, N95 mask, staffing needs to be at an otherwise crisis level, patients have to be notified etc).  It is unclear if this has actually happened yet.  It is also difficult to know what the true story is because when you google it, most of what comes up seems to be on far-right media channels and obviously very slanted.
> 
> With that said, I still fully support hospitals mandating the vaccine for their employees.


No need to own up to anything, It happened just before I typed it. I got an alert on my phone from a local news feed. That’s why I clarified it, I wasn’t calling you out, I assumed you hadn’t seen it. I could have been clearer too.

It is odd that the it’s not being reported on other media outlets?


----------



## machski (Jan 5, 2022)

abc said:


> It is also possible that that they're just at the beginning of becoming infective!
> 
> Throwing the baby out with the bath water?


Agreed, but everything is in play with folks who stay totally asymptomatic.  No good answers here is my point.


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Agreed, but everything is in play with folks who stay totally asymptomatic.  No good answers here is my point.


I agree on "no good answers". But there're however imperfect yet decent answers. 

Reducing contact with KNOWN infected person is one such. Just because we don't know EVERYONE who might be infectious doesn't mean we should look the other way and ignore those who're known to be.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2022)

abc said:


> I agree on "no good answers". But there're however imperfect yet decent answers.
> 
> Reducing contact with KNOWN infected person is one such. Just because we don't know EVERYONE who might be infectious doesn't mean we should look the other way and ignore those who're known to be.



There also comes a point when one has to admit and accept that for the overwhelming majority of society, what COVID is today ISN'T what it was a year or more ago.  And arguably for the vast majority of society, Covid was never going to be as dire as the original "out of an abundance of caution" narrative was sold as to us. That is just what the data has shown, especially if one is under 70 and has less than the roughly 5 co-morbidities that most who have passed away due to Covid statistically have. And across all aged demographics, the data shows that if one contracts Covid, they are far more likely to survive than die from it.

Can anyone name or think of someone who wants to be vaccinated yet and hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet (short of maybe a small percentage of people with very speciific health conditions/allergies, who likely pre COVID were already living a very "germ phobic" lifestyle, and still will be living a very germ phobic lifestyle when COVID is accepted as endemic, or the very young, for whom the risks if they contract COVID of anything severe is basically zero)?  And regardless of what some wish, it is still peoples own choice to get vaccinated or not.

Especially now with Omicron, the effects if one get it, regardless of if they're vaccinated or not, are almost always mild cold symptoms. Those still getting hospitalized now, and hospitalized FROM Covid, not hospitalized for something else and have Covid as a secondary note, are mainly with Delta.

Heck, you're seeing the media often stop using the former buzz phrase of "break through infections" as a result of Omicron. And even Dr Fauci is acknowledging that we have to start moving on from the number of new cases and look at the hospitalization rates as the primary metric.

It's sad that some people, for whatever reasons they feel are needed, choose to essentially define themsleves still with Covid fear porn virtue signaling, and will attempt to Covid shame those who have made the choice, after almost 2 years, to try and live their lives "normally" again, and are aware of, and comfortable with what that means for their own risks.  As one can only control and choose their own risks, and frankly shouldn't be trying to force their own risk comfort levels on others.  That would be like one telling the person on the highway next to them that they can't drive 65 beause they, themselves only feel comfortable driving 50.

I figure it's only a matter of time until new shows on various lifestyle networks about those living in Covid fear along the show style like say hoarders, start showing up, and that is such a sad commentary on what this entire pandemic has done to the mental state of some of society as well as the influnece that the mainstream and social media can have over some.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2022)

SnowRock said:


> So a friend of mine has also been pushing this Dr. Malone stuff.. i told him I would look at his site with an open mind, but the challenge is that right out of the gates he is trying to claim singular credit as the original innovator of "mRNA and DNA vaccines" which is just not true. While there may sometimes be a "father/mother of" a particular therapeutic or vaccine modality,  in this case if you were to credit anyone with that role it would be the duo of Kariko and Weissman. He absolutely played a role but claiming singular credit like that made me skeptical.
> 
> Later on it tries to suggest he invented the platform? But they don't really describe what that means.... I know he was not a seminal researcher on the delivery tech via LNP which was fundamental to establish the platform. A different group of scientist have already won a Nobel prize for that work.
> 
> ...



he also got booted from twitter for quackery.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> he also got booted from twitter for quackery.


The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology


   

I fear Mark Zuckerberg will be offended1


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> There also comes a point when one has to admit and accept that for the overwhelming majority of society, what COVID is today ISN'T what it was a year or more ago.


I believe the majority had already accepted that. That's why we're now out and about. I mean legally, not breaking any rules. 

There maybe a minority who somehow felt we should still be in lockdown. But then, there're always some minority who felt we should live in color segregated society too. While the media is still giving time/space to the former, but they've also given the latter such a few decades back. Time will change that just as surely as before. 

But there's a big difference to those who never believe we should have had a lockdown. They believe now that we're back to normal, that's "proof" the lockdown was unnecessary in the first place and vaccine were never needed anyway, etc....


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2022)

abc said:


> I believe the majority had already accepted that. That's why we're now out and about. I mean legally, not breaking any rules.
> 
> There maybe a minority who somehow felt we should still be in lockdown. But then, there're always some minority who felt we should live in color segregated society too. While the media is still giving time/space to the former, but they've also given the latter such a few decades back. Time will change that just as surely as before.
> 
> But there's a big difference to those who never believe we should have had a lockdown. They believe now that we're back to normal, that's "proof" the lockdown was unnecessary in the first place and vaccine were never needed anyway, etc....



When you take a look at not just how different states, but also countries around the world, have handled COVID (locks downs, no lock downs, mask mandates, no mask mandates, vax mandates, no vax mandates, no real widesperad vaxing, use of early treatment therapeutics or not, etc) and see that no one way was significantly better, or worse, than the other, then one has to give some credence to the notion that maybe the severity of the way some handled this crisis wasn't the best way, especially when you factor in some of the economic and psychological hardships some of the more severe approaches have brought to those areas. 

once this is all over, the retrospective data analysis of how this was handled is likely to be eye opening for many, and also (unfortunately) result in a bunch of "I told you so" moments as well.  In order for society to truly beneft from what that will show, one HAS to put aside the emotional component and look objectively at the data, even if that data shows something their emotions don't want to accept


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology



Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?

What's his motivation for misrepresentation the facts there?


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> When you take a look at not just how different states, but also countries around the world, have handled COVID (locks downs, no lock downs, mask mandates, no mask mandates, vax mandates, no vax mandates, no real widesperad vaxing, use of early treatment therapeutics or not, etc) and see that no one way was significantly better, or worse, than the other, then one has to give some credence to the notion that maybe the severity of the way some handled this crisis wasn't the best way, especially when you factor in some of the economic and psychological hardships some of the more severe approaches have brought to those areas.


I beg to differ.

Almost no country choose to have no lock down. Sweden was supposed to be the counter example. But in reality, although there's no official "lockdown", the Swedes were acting as though there was. The population were social distancing for the most part. Still, their death rate were somewhat higher than their Nordic neighbors who implemented official lockdown.

The other end of the spectrum, countries that adapted official lockdown, many are often time the countries that the population refused voluntary social distancing advises, Italy is a not so shining example.

I would argue, the world had all gone through some form of lockdown, only some countries to more strict ones than others. 

We'll find out, in a few years time, more rigorous analysis of data that would shine some light on the effects, by take into account of population demographic, social behavior and actual implementation of policies.


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?
> 
> What's his motivation for misrepresentation the facts there?


Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview

I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do.


The point being, he may know what it really is. But he may be purposely distorting the truth. Not out of ignorance but malice.

Given the other non-scientific falsehood he perpetrate, that suspicion has some foundation.

(I'm not passing judgement on any of his statement regarding the vaccine. I refuse to waste my time to listen to someone who clearly telling "some" lies that can be easily verified.)


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview
> 
> I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them


But he quite literally states that he is "the original inventor of mRNA and DNA vaccines" on his own website... where he also goes on to call the mRNA vaccines gene therapies. Uses those exact words.

Calling the mRNA vaccines gene therapy is naïve at best and purposefully malicious at worst. Yes, they use genetic material to elucidate the immune response, but they are not "gene therapies," as they don't alter our genetic makeup. This isn't a matter of which media source one reads. The goal of gene therapy or gene editing is to fix the defective gene. mRNA vaccines do nothing to change the genetic information of our cells... so why use that term? Obviously Malone understands that very important distinction, so I can only view it as a dog whistle for the anti-vax crowd.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 5, 2022)

SnowRock said:


> But he quite literally states that he is "the original inventor of mRNA and DNA vaccines" on his own website... where he also goes on to call the mRNA vaccines gene therapies. Uses those exact words.
> 
> Calling the mRNA vaccines gene therapy is naïve at best and purposefully malicious at worst. Yes, they use genetic material to elucidate the immune response, but they are not "gene therapies," as they don't alter our genetic makeup. This isn't a matter of which media source one reads. The goal of gene therapy or gene editing is to fix the defective gene. mRNA vaccines do nothing to change the genetic information of our cells... so why use that term? Obviously Malone understands that very important distinction, so I can only view it as a dog whistle for the anti-vax crowd.


funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."


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## SnowRock (Jan 5, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."


what am i splitting hairs over? are vaccines therapeutics? and more specifically are mrna vaccines gene therapies? words do matter. 

And these mRNA jabs were always vaccines.. the change CDC made does more accurately reflect the fact that no vaccines are 100% effective. Have the flu vaccines always secretly not been vaccines because they aren't close to 100% effective? Do you think every other vaccine we have introduced throughout the years is 100% effective? How about a new one like shingrix... 90% and also wanes after 4 years or so. Was that not a vaccine then?


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## cdskier (Jan 5, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."



Keep thinking that has any relevance if you want. The "updated" CDC definition of vaccine much more correctly aligns with the scientific reality of how vaccines in general work (not just the covid ones).

If you want to be technical and go back to the original definition of vaccine, it means something that came from a cow (because it originally referred to the usage of fluid from cowpox pustules to help prevent smallpox). Definitions changing over time is nothing new. Although I guess in your fantasy land, realistically none of our vaccines today are really "vaccines" because they don't come from a cow...


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## johnl87 (Jan 5, 2022)

SnowRock said:


> what am i splitting hairs over? are vaccines therapeutics? and more specifically are mrna vaccines gene therapies? words do matter.
> 
> And these mRNA jabs were always vaccines.. the change CDC made does more accurately reflect the fact that no vaccines are 100% effective. Have the flu vaccines always secretly not been vaccines because they aren't close to 100% effective? Do you think every other vaccine we have introduced throughout the years is 100% effective? How about a new one like shingrix... 90% and also wanes after 4 years or so. Was that not a vaccine then?


imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission.  heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done.  i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 5, 2022)

30 years ago we were very thankful for the brand new  recombinant DNA vaccines, such as EngerixB for Hepatitis.
You don't really want to know where the Vaccines came from Pre 1980's...
mRNA technology is the new & improved version....


----------



## cdskier (Jan 5, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
> they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission.  heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done.  i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.



And imagine if polio, mumps, and measles mutated as quickly as COVID-19 does...

And J&J's effectiveness right off the bat was stated as being lower than the mRNA ones based on clinical trial data at the time it was given EUA status, so I don't know what you're remembering...


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 5, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
> they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission.  heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done.  i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.


Lets set aside the significant differences between the viruses themselves... and what may actually be realistically achievable when it comes to vaccination against a coronavirus that will seemingly forever have a reservoir for mutation in humans. 

It took us like 70 years to eradicate polio. You'd probably be posting that the vaccine failed since it wasn't gone the year after it was introduced. One of your other examples in measles requires >90% vaccination rate to keep at bay.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 5, 2022)

SnowRock said:


> Lets set aside the significant differences between the viruses themselves... and what may actually be realistically achievable when it comes to vaccination against a coronavirus that will seemingly forever have a reservoir for mutation in humans.
> 
> It took us like 70 years to eradicate polio. You'd probably be posting that the vaccine failed since it wasn't gone the year after it was introduced. One of your other examples in measles requires >90% vaccination rate to keep at bay.


BU had a Measles outbreak 2-3 years ago, and YES there were "break thru" cases then...

We had a PR visit from Mayor Wu today, so naturally there was an AntiVax Protest by City of Boston Employees....


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview
> 
> I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them



Nice job totally dodging my questions . Extra points for the whataboutism encore too. 

I conceded the man knows a lot and is very accomplished in my first comment on him.  You know what? Lots of people have illustrious careers that oddly go south. Sidney Powell was once considered a rock star attorney.  Does that opinion amongst her peers remain today? Probably not.  Her integrity took a backseat to an agenda. 

So, I'll ask again:

Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?

What's his motivation for misrepresenting the facts there?

Here's one more....

Are these the typical behaviors of a professional scientist?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Nice job totally dodging my questions . Extra points for the whataboutism encore too.
> 
> I conceded the man knows a lot and is very accomplished in my first comment on him.  You know what? Lots of people have illustrious careers that oddly go south. Sidney Powell was once considered a rock star attorney.  Does that opinion amongst her peers remain today? Probably not.  Her integrity took a backseat to an agenda.
> 
> ...


Ok, basic stuff here. A some genes have the ability to code for molecules that make proteins. The mRNA vaccines cause our bodies to make the proteins that code for the spike proteins synonymous for COVID for which then our bodies then make the protective antibodies for. Gene therapy may be a very broad term used here, but it's still in the ball park of having our bodies make a specific protein.

Is he misrepresenting the facts or is it the media and the Pharmaceutical industry, with great financial ties to the vaccines trying to misrepresent him for their own benefit? And do remember that the Pharmaceutical industry has petitioned the FDA for legal liability protection from potential side effects from these vaccines for over a 50yr time frame. We are likely going to agree to disagree on this one DHS

Are his behaviors atypical of a scientist? Well frankly aren't scientists supposed to ask questions and challenge hypotheses until they can be verified by colleagues all over the globe in similar experiments as part of the scientific method where some hypotheses are found to be scientific truth and others false? 

And I am sure you will try and take this apart, but here you go on Dr Malone's role in the development of mRNA inter mixed with various points he brought up during his 3hr Rogan interview, since I am guessing that many commenting in this thread haven't listened to it in its entirety, if at all. And seeing how the text of it has been now entered into the Congressional Record, various fact checking agencies can't interject their opinions on his actual words if cited









						Humanity's whistleblower – Dr. Robert Malone sounds the alarm
					

The Chief Architect of mRNA platform technology is blowing the whistle on the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines. And if he is correct, we are all in grave danger – and 16,000




					www.thedesertreview.com


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 6, 2022)

Again that’s not what gene therapy is or how it is broadly understood. It is a purposeful conflation of the term being used to scare people into thinking mRNA vaccines alter your DNA. They do not. The vaccines do not enter the cell nucleus

Gene therapies are focused on making changes to dna to fix mutated or non functional genes. Luxturna is a gene therapy. Kymriah is a gene therapy. CRISPR gene editing would be gene therapy… not mRNA vaccines. Yes gene therapies use viral vectors like AAV to perform gene insertions and mRNA could be used in a similar fashion, but that doesn’t make traditional  AAV vaccines gene therapy anymore than it makes mRNA vaccines gene therapy. Further I’d argue very simply that by their nature, vaccines aren’t therapies. They aren’t intended to “treat” disease like a therapeutic.

Edit to add that I slogged my way through most of that poorly written, rambling, desert news piece. Let’s set aside the insane new world order population and mind control stuff…. And focus on the double down of HCQ and Ivermectin as the miracle cures for COVID.

If there was such a huge conspiracy against HCQ why did multiple pharmaceutical companies that actually manufacture the drug make millions and millions of doses available for free early on in the pandemic? In fact one company re-opened a closed plant to help make more?

Then let’s do a little digging into the Ivermectin research…. how many of the “seminal” papers that have been used to promote the efficacy of Ivermectin have been retracted or shown to be absolutely fraudulent at this point.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2022)

In other words Dr Malone chose his words very carefully and deliberately for a specific audience to reaffirm suspicions they already have.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Ok, basic stuff here. A some genes have the ability to code for molecules that make proteins. The mRNA vaccines cause our bodies to make the proteins that code for the spike proteins synonymous for COVID for which then our bodies then make the protective antibodies for. Gene therapy may be a very broad term used here, but it's still in the ball park of having our bodies make a specific protein.
> 
> Is he misrepresenting the facts or is it the media and the Pharmaceutical industry, with great financial ties to the vaccines trying to misrepresent him for their own benefit? And do remember that the Pharmaceutical industry has petitioned the FDA for legal liability protection from potential side effects from these vaccines for over a 50yr time frame. We are likely going to agree to disagree on this one DHS
> 
> ...



You're a bright guy Jeff.  A pHD.  In your schooling days, had you had to write a paper on MRNA vaccines and called them Gene Therapy, how do you think your professors would have reacted to the claim?


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You're a bright guy Jeff.  A pHD.  In your schooling days, had you had to write a paper on MRNA vaccines and called them Gene Therapy, how do you think your professors would have reacted to the claim?



I like Jeff.  But after his African American vaccine stats, I think his credibility is kinda shot for a while.  Sorry Jeff.  Statistics wise, that was the equivalent of saying the New England Patriots won about half of all the Super Bowls.  While in reality they won about half the Super Bowls that they were actually in.  If somebody told you the New England Patriots won 22 Super Bowls would you continue to listen to anything they say about football?  That's just too big an error to currently take his opinion in the vaccine area seriously.  I assume that chart, like many others left and right, got passed along by whatever group because at quick glance it appears to prove something that helps their agenda.  Just like VAERS thing, people hear what they want to hear and then pass it along.  Very sloppy.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

Here is an interesting tid bit from the NYT I saw posted on another site. I found the article but it’s behind the NYT pay wall for me.

“Consider this: Before Omicron, a typical vaccinated 75-year-old who contracted Covid had a roughly similar risk of death — around 1 in 200 — as a typical 75-year-old who contracted the flu. (Here are the details behind that calculation, which is based on an academic study.)

Omicron has changed the calculation. Because it is milder than earlier versions of the virus,* Covid now appears to present less threat to most vaccinated elderly people than the annual flu does.*

The flu, of course, does present risk for the elderly. And the sheer size of the Omicron surge may argue for caution over the next few weeks. But the combination of vaccines and Omicron’s apparent mildness means that, for an individual, Covid increasingly resembles the kind of health risk that people accept every day.”

PS almost 88% of the elderly are vaccinated


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## cdskier (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Humanity's whistleblower – Dr. Robert Malone sounds the alarm
> 
> 
> The Chief Architect of mRNA platform technology is blowing the whistle on the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines. And if he is correct, we are all in grave danger – and 16,000
> ...



Have you done any research on the author of this article? He's written books that continue to push Ivermectic as a miracle cure. And he also refuses to write and publish under his own name so we really don't even know exactly who he is. Not exactly what I would consider a reliable source...


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## Great Bear (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Here is an interesting tid bit from the NYT I saw posted on another site. I found the article but it’s behind the NYT pay wall for me.
> 
> “Consider this: Before Omicron, a typical vaccinated 75-year-old who contracted Covid had a roughly similar risk of death — around 1 in 200 — as a typical 75-year-old who contracted the flu. (Here are the details behind that calculation, which is based on an academic study.)
> 
> ...



I have seen similar - or maybe even saw this NYT article.

If accurate this is "good" (?) news (If you can call anything about a highly transmissible virus good) - i think for many of us our concern is not about personal safety, but for the safety of others should ICU's and hospitals gradually become more and more overwhelmed.  As you reference, the sheer size of the Omicron surge may cause hospitals to go way beyond capacity, even if the risk to an individual is low.

For this reason, I think it is smart for us, as a society, to be very cautious over the next handful of weeks.


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## drjeff (Jan 6, 2022)

If science over time shows that what Dr Malone claims is totally wrong, well then I will own my error in judgement and apologize for waisting peoples time on this.

As for the Ivermectin thing. Isn't that the drug that the author in the Rolling Stone article last year claims an ER Doc in rural Kansas said that people overdoing on it was clogging up their ER's so that gun shot victims were turned away? Oh wait a minute, that was completely flase and made up. Or the drug that CNN labeled as a horse de-wormer (which in one usage it is) that Rogan took, along with monoclonal antibodies and Azythromycin (pretty sure it was a Z-pack if I recall off the top of my head) when he tested positive last Fall. Oh wait a minute, CNN's own Dr Sanjay Gupta admitted that his netowrk was wrong/inaccurate with how they spun that story. Or is it the same Ivermectin that has been used literally billions of times, by humans, safely over decades and since it's off patent is very cheap to make, with little drug company profit, and was reportedly used very effectively as a combo of drugs given in one of the Indian provinces of over 200 million people to help squash their Delta spike?   And yes, sometimes, physicians WILL indeed use some drugs off label if in their clinical judgement the science makes sense. If they didn't, well then Viagra would still likely just be an anti-hypertensive medication and say Bo-tox would just be used for wrinkles and not the treatment of migraines, etc.

By nature I tend to think outside of the box on things when the background science behind the issue at hand suggests that there may be a different, possibly better way to do something. If folks never thought outside the box, so many things we now take as the normal, would never of cecome the normal, nor will things that say 10 years from now that will be the normal, likely be discovered.  If someone with respect to TREATING those with Covid symptoms severe enough to actually require treatment, since I think we all can agree that inspite of what was hoped a year ago or so, we CAN'T simply vaccinate our way out of COVID, seemingly brings up a possible treatment option for those with Covid, then all of the sudden it seems like the media, as well as public health officials have gone to great extents to suppress that line of thought and keep doubling down on vaccines as the only answer to COVID. Frankly that is something that is concerning to me atleast.

I hope for all of our sakes that mother nature gets her act togther and we get prolnged cold air and snowstorms ASAP so we all can spend more time on the slopes rather than talking COVID


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Here is an interesting tid bit from the NYT I saw posted on another site. I found the article but it’s behind the NYT pay wall for me.


If you can't access the article in full, perhaps you can provide the link to the article so those who have access can read it and see the context in which the limited view you saw?


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

abc said:


> If you can't access the article in full, perhaps you can provide the link to the article so those who have access can read it and see the context in which the limited view you saw?


I googled it (C&P the whole thing) and it was the first thing that came up.
If you have access please post more of it, even if _you think _*I* wouldn’t like it. Sounds like it has some “data” in it.

I may actually seek out a copy later.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> since I think we all can agree that inspite of what was hoped a year ago or so, we CAN'T simply vaccinate our way out of COVID,


Feels like there are many here still clinging to that thought rather strongly and would rather spend their time blaming the un-vaccinated for all the issues instead of looking at what the real long term solutions might be. Including convincing the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. Forcing it on people by threatening their livelihoods isn’t how to convince people feel at ease.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Omicron has changed the calculation. Because it is milder than earlier versions of the virus,* Covid now appears to present less threat to most vaccinated elderly people than the annual flu does.*


The catch is that Omicron is likely much more contagious than the flu.

That said, we can't stop it.  Countries like New Zealand that are fans of widespread lockdowns are just delaying the inevitable.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Feels like there are many here still clinging to that thought rather strongly and would rather spend their time blaming the un-vaccinated for all the issues instead of looking at what the real long term solutions might be. Including convincing the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. Forcing it on people by threatening their livelihoods isn’t how to convince people feel at ease.



Heck in my own household, granted its only a sample size of 4, so take it with a grain of salt for sure, we've had a combined 12 jabs now (7 jabs of Pfizer, 4 of Moderna and 1 of J&J), Our social circle is to our knowledge almost all of vaxxed friends, we had our 1st breakthrough case in our house hold this week. Fortunately it has just been very mild sniffles and a slight scratchy throat for the 1st 36 or so hours and they've been feeling 100% normal the last 2 days now, and they're anxiously waiting for tomorrow to finish so they can get out of the quarantine at home they've been in all week.

The vaccines sure seem to limit the severity of the disease process, no doubt in my mind. However while they may be a part of the ultimate solution to COVID, they are seemingly more and more just that, a PART of the solution, and maybe not even a part for everyone


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> The catch is that Omicron is likely much more contagious than the flu.
> 
> That said, we can't stop it.  Countries like New Zealand that are fans of widespread lockdowns are just delaying the inevitable.


Agreed
Those at risk need take every precaution


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Feels like there are many here still clinging to that thought rather strongly and would rather spend their time blaming the un-vaccinated for all the issues instead of looking at what the real long term solutions might be. Including convincing the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. Forcing it on people by threatening their livelihoods isn’t how to convince people feel at ease


The cats probably already out of the bag in terms of convincing most of the vaccine-hesitant people to get the shot at this point.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> The cats probably already out of the bag in terms of convincing most of the vaccine-hesitant people to get the shot at this point.


Respectfully disagree
Of course some will take it to the grave like smoking cigarettes.

I heard a story from an associate 
His brother and wife and disabled son not vax’d
Husband spent 6 days in the hospital 
All 3 will now get vax’d

Sad way to get convinced but I have heard other similar stories.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Respectfully disagree
> Of course some will take it to the grave like smoking cigarettes.
> 
> I heard a story from an associate
> ...



Some will surely get it and the numbers will go up, but I just don't see the majority of people rushing out to get it, especially with omicron being so mild.  I don't see a major course correction in the actions being taken by those in power that's motivating these people not to get it either...


----------



## Andrew B. (Jan 6, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> especially with omicron being so mild.


With every variant getting less “crushing” it seems the closer we are to treating this like a flu.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Or is it the same Ivermectin that has been used literally billions of times, by humans, safely over decades and since it's off patent is very cheap to make, with little drug company profit, and was reportedly used very effectively as a combo of drugs given in one of the Indian provinces of over 200 million people to help squash their Delta spike?


A drug being used safely for decades is irrelevant if it actually doesn't do anything to treat a particular disease.

You do know that India took Ivermectin off their clinical guidance months ago...right?



> The Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) and the National Task Force on Covid-19 have dropped the use of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) drugs from their revised guidelines for the treatment of the infection.
> 
> The decision was taken after experts found that these drugs have little to no effect on Covid-related mortality or clinical recovery of the patient.
> 
> Additionally, there was a high risk of bias in many of the studies, particularly with the ones showing mortality benefit, as the level of certainty is low in them.


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I think we all can agree that inspite of what was hoped a year ago or so, we CAN'T simply vaccinate our way out of COVID,



We would not have been able to vaccinate our way out of measles either if only 60% of the population was vaccinated.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> A drug being used safely for decades is irrelevant if it actually doesn't do anything to treat a particular disease.
> 
> You do know that India took Ivermectin off their clinical guidance months ago...right?


Aware of those, and it wasn't just Ivermectin that India used during their Delta spike. It was a cocktail of drugs, and frankly again as I have stated, at times it does take some thinking outside of the box, especially with what India did as with a population of over a billion and something like only 6% of their population vaccinated at the time the Delta spike hit there (and with Delta seemingly having more potentially severe side effects) there really wasn't much to loose by incorpating a drug given billions of times over decades with a great safety record even if it may or may not have beneficial effects. 

I am just perplexed by why folks actually trying to TREAT the disease, are shunned by so many who are putting forth the leadership and guidance for the disease in this country.  Heck, we're I belive the most vaxxed country (by number of doses given not percent of the population) and our infection rates aren't significantly lower than most any other country out there. So why not look for treatment options, even if they might only involve existing, off patent drugs that won't make the pharmaceutical industry more $$ and culd bring in question the "experimental status" that the vaccines have used to be pushed across so much of society under the ethical principles for an experimental status drug?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Aware of those, and it wasn't just Ivermectin that India used during their Delta spike. It was a cocktail of drugs, and frankly again as I have stated, at times it does take some thinking outside of the box, especially with what India did as with a population of over a billion and something like only 6% of their population vaccinated at the time the Delta spike hit there (and with Delta seemingly having more potentially severe side effects) there really wasn't much to loose by incorpating a drug given billions of times over decades with a great safety record even if it may or may not have beneficial effects.
> 
> I am just perplexed by why folks actually trying to TREAT the disease, are shunned by so many who are putting forth the leadership and guidance for the disease in this country.  Heck, we're I belive the most vaxxed country (by number of doses given not percent of the population) and our infection rates aren't significantly lower than most any other country out there. So why not look for treatment options, even if they might only involve existing, off patent drugs that won't make the pharmaceutical industry more $$ and culd bring in question the "experimental status" that the vaccines have used to be pushed across so much of society under the ethical principles for an experimental status drug?


Follow the $ Jeff, Follow the $


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I am just perplexed by why folks actually trying to TREAT the disease, are shunned by so many who are putting forth the leadership and guidance for the disease in this country.


But that's simply not true.

There're actual treatments, several of them. Clinically proven by double blind trials. There're still many drugs being "trialed" in hospitals as we speak. (I happened to know a doctor participating in one such).

What's being shunned are unproven, or worse proven no better than placebo, "treatment".


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2022)

abc said:


> There're actual treatments, several of them. Clinically proven by double blind trials. There're still many drugs being studied in hospitals as we speak. (I happened to know a doctor participating in one such study)


Yup and in many areas it's a struggle to get them.  There doesn't seem to be much interest in treating somebody til it's time to go on a vent in the ICU when it's far too late far any of the early treatments to have any effectiveness


----------



## cdskier (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I am just perplexed by why folks actually trying to TREAT the disease, are shunned by so many who are putting forth the leadership and guidance for the disease in this country.  *Heck, we're I belive the most vaxxed country (by number of doses given not percent of the population) and our infection rates aren't significantly lower than most any other country out there*. So why not look for treatment options, even if they might only involve existing, off patent drugs that won't make the pharmaceutical industry more $$ and culd bring in question the "experimental status" that the vaccines have used to be pushed across so much of society under the ethical principles for an experimental status drug?



You can't be serious with that comment...the sheer number of doses is irrelevant compared to the percentage. Come on...you know that.

And no one is shunning genuine treatments. Treatments are absolutely critical. I fully agree. But they need to be supported by real data and real clinical trials done the proper way. If older off-patent drugs showed real benefits, I'd be all for them. But the problem is when properly conducted studies are done, these drugs like Ivermectin aren't showing to make a significant difference. They only show a difference for some reason anecdotally or through faulty studies (which means there are likely other variables and factors at play if you can't duplicate those findings in a controlled study environment).


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Yup and in many areas it's a struggle to get them.  There doesn't seem to be much interest in treating somebody til it's time to go on a vent in the ICU when it's far too late far any of the early treatments to have any effectiveness


That has a lot more to do with our medical profession than anything else.

Doctors are train to treat the sick, not to prevent people from getting sick. Specialist focus on the sickest and they get their kick from rescuing those on death's door.

Couple that with a nation without universal health coverage and no mandatory sick leave, meaning many mildly sick people won't even go to see doctors until symptom got really severe.

Early treatment to forestall severe outcome is an uphill battle in this environment.

Specific to Covid, why after nearly 2 years, insurance is only now starting to cover at-home Covid test! How does one get these new treatments, almost all of them need to be taken within the first 5 days, when one can't get a test appointment for more than 5 days?


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## drjeff (Jan 6, 2022)

abc said:


> But that's simply not true.
> 
> There're actual treatments, several of them. Clinically proven by double blind trials. There're still many drugs being "trialed" in hospitals as we speak. (I happened to know a doctor participating in one such).
> 
> What's being shunned are unproven, or worse proven no better than placebo, "treatment".


True, there are now within the last week or 2, some drugs available to treat COVID symptoms and others in trials now. Those will be on patent, big $$ per dose drugs when used.

Early on, when there weren't treatment drugs available and people were (and still are dying in significant numbers) and people were trying various drugs based on general mechanism of how that drug(s) work and the known at that time mechanism of COVID, even if those drugs weren;'t big $$ drugs for the pharmaceutical industry, why not try them?

Heck, should be try and discuss the topic of monoclonal antibodies and how the federal government has limited their supply?  And before one says that they're not Omicron specific, remember that the vast majority of the severe disease now is still Delta, which did respond to monoclonal antibodies when used early in the infection stage, such as pre-hospitalization situations.

The scientific process is one based on an exchange of ideas in an open fashion. It seems at times like COVID is trying to be viewed as something where the scientifc process need not always apply if it ends up questioning something


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2022)

Please lock and/or delete this fucking thread. Useless. 
You’re an idiot- no you are! 
Blah, blah , fucking blah!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> You can't be serious with that comment...the sheer number of doses is irrelevant compared to the percentage. Come on...you know that.
> 
> And no one is shunning genuine treatments. Treatments are absolutely critical. I fully agree. But they need to be supported by real data and real clinical trials done the proper way. If older off-patent drugs showed real benefits, I'd be all for them. But the problem is when properly conducted studies are done, these drugs like Ivermectin aren't showing to make a significant difference. They only show a difference for some reason anecdotally or through faulty studies (which means there are likely other variables and factors at play if you can't duplicate those findings in a controlled study environment).



Exactly.  Most people aren't questioning Remdesivir, Monoclonal antibodies and the recently approved Pfizer therapeutic etc. Most aren't just saying NO! Vaccines are the only way.  It's always been a vaccine PLUS treatment battle. 

But you have a very loud, conspiracy leaning group of people who are screaming Big Pharma only wants their drugs out there and are suppressing Invermectin, Hydro and others to protect their own profits.  Big Pharma is paying off the government, media and big tech to silence those pushing other treatments.  Blah, blah, blah.

No, all that's being recommended is the Invermectin people prove out their theory through trials and data just like Pfizer had to do to bring their new treatment to market. 

I'm aware that there's been some poor behavior by pharmaceutical companies and crooked doctors over the years.  Plenty of shitheads throughout history like the Sacklers. 

But it's not enough to discredit the fact that probably the number one reason we are living on average to an age of near 80 today vs barely 50 in 1900 is drug therapies.   But the drug companies are the enemy because of the money they make.


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## machski (Jan 6, 2022)

My favorite part of the pandemic is that it has taken us to Omicron before the medical authorities reverse themselves again on masks and now say cloth mask are useless or nearly so for this strain.  Umm, I don't the size of the virus particle has change in any substantial way, so pretty sure cloth masks have been ineffective from the start.  How many times can they change course on simple guidance??


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## VTKilarney (Jan 6, 2022)

Without getting into the efficacy of Ivermectin, I hope we all can agree that it was improper for the mainstream media to refer to a drug that has been properly prescribed to millions of people merely as "horse de-wormer."


----------



## cdskier (Jan 6, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Without getting into the efficacy of Ivermectin, I hope we all can agree that it was improper for the mainstream media to refer to a drug that has been properly prescribed to millions of people merely as "horse de-wormer."


I'll absolutely agree with you there. The media has made many mistakes and definitely done a lot of harm with sowing seeds of doubt about various things in people's minds with no valid basis to do so.


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Early on, when there weren't treatment drugs available and people were (and still are dying in significant numbers) and people were trying various drugs based on general mechanism of how that drug(s) work and the known at that time mechanism of COVID, even if those drugs weren;'t big $$ drugs for the pharmaceutical industry, why not try them?


Again, "those drugs" had been tried. Quite many of them during the earlier waves. Some (hydroxychloroquine anyone?) had been proven to be no more effective than placebo!

Why do you think only the "new" drugs got approved? Wait, existing drugs don't need approvals. They only need some doctor to proclaim they work.  But wouldn't the drug makers do double blind clinical trial to prove their effectiveness? In some of the most high profile cases, the clinical trials show those drugs didn't work!

Still, I was pretty vocal in saying the Trump administration was starving clinical trial of treatments during the height of the vaccine development in Operation Warp Speed. Of course, I was nobody and not even the medical people are going to cross the President by suggesting he should give some of the money for vaccine development to treatment development! 

Despite that, there're now several proven drugs, who do you think will sign up as candidates for the trial of those off-label drugs that may or may not work? Would you?

The only few off-label drugs left that had no proven efficacy yet are still being pushed around by a few individual are being shunned. For very good reasons.


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## Dickc (Jan 6, 2022)

abc said:


> If you can't access the article in full, perhaps you can provide the link to the article so those who have access can read it and see the context in which the limited view you saw?


That snippet came from a New York Times newsletter that you can sign up for for free.  I posted it on another site and can verify its authenticity.  It was part of a MUCH larger piece, but I thought that part was the most interesting of it.  PM me an email address if you want the original forwarded as I still have it.


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## drjeff (Jan 6, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> We would not have been able to vaccinate our way out of measles either if only 60% of the population was vaccinated.


If one gets a measles vaxx, they aren't getting ,measles, regardless of if someone else near them has measles, and that protection appears to last decades.

Same thing with the mentioned earlier in this thread polio vaccine.

COVID is different. I think we can all agree with that and vaccine efficacy. Disease severity reduction is there. Some efficacy against infection is there. However, especially now with Omicron, if a vaxxed, boosted person is near even an asymptomatic positive person, their risk of contracting COVID sure seems to be far greater than say the measles or polio referenced groups.

Again it a small subset pertaining to my household, but roughly 5 weeks post booster, we had a positive test this week. 

I am happy to be vaccinated and boosted. Let's just be open to what that all means and understand that it may be different with COVID vs previous vaccines, regardless of percentage of the population that is vaccinated or not


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## 2Planker (Jan 6, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Respectfully disagree
> Of course some will take it to the grave like smoking cigarettes.
> 
> I heard a story from an associate
> ...


Similar story, Dad wouldn't let anyone get Vaxx'd
  Dad then got covid, spent 35 days in the Hosp., before he passed
Wife and 2 kids still not gonna get Vaxx.
Nothing you can do anymore..... 

My family too, more than 1/2 of us are MD/RN/ & healthcare PhD's. But we have 3 siblings who are never gonna get a Vacc.
One is hospitalized now, and will probably be in the ICU shortly

 We just ordered 4  mortuary refrigerators and freezers in preparation of what is to come


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## boston_e (Jan 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> If one gets a measles vaxx, they aren't getting ,measles, regardless of if someone else near them has measles.


Probably not entirely true..  Per the CDC about 3 in 100 people who have their doses of the MMR vaccine will get measles if exposed to the measles virus.  MMR effiicacy is only about 88% against Mumps.  I agree it is a more effective vaccine at prevention than the Covid vaccine, but part of why we almost never see measles and mumps is because so many people have been vaccinated that exposures almost never happen.

If a much higher percentage of the population were vaccinated, your family member would have been less likely to have been exposed to the virus.

I agree with you that the Covid vaccines are less effective at preventing infection than MMR, but you also can't ignore that part of how vaccines work is reducing the overall presence of a virus, not just form the individual protection they provide.


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## boston_e (Jan 6, 2022)

By the way - I hope your family member is doing OK.


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## x10003q (Jan 6, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Without getting into the efficacy of Ivermectin, I hope we all can agree that it was improper for the mainstream media to refer to a drug that has been properly prescribed to millions of people merely as "horse de-wormer."


Which part of the reporting are you angry with - that they reported there are zero double blind studies to show that Ivermectin treats COVID or that the horse paste Ivermectin was flying off the shelves in certain areas of the US? 

"The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. Ivermectin is approved for human use to treat infections caused by *some parasitic worms and head lice and skin conditions like rosacea."*

"*Never use medications intended for animals on yourself or other people*. Animal ivermectin products are very different from those approved for humans. Use of animal ivermectin for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in humans is dangerous. "








						Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19
					

Using the Drug ivermectin to treat COVID-19 can be dangerous and even lethal. The FDA has not approved the drug for that purpose.




					www.fda.gov


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 6, 2022)

x10003q said:


> Which part of the reporting are you angry with - that they reported there are zero double blind studies to show that Ivermectin treats COVID or that the horse paste Ivermectin was flying off the shelves in certain areas of the US?


Neither.  I am referring to the fact that the media often failed to acknowledge that people were taking the form of the medication that is intended for human consumption - albeit for an off-label use.  You know as well as I do that they wanted to give the impression by omission that the drug was only for animals.

Put another way, I saw many examples of the media, without knowing the actual source of Ivermectin, make a factual statement that someone was taking horse de-wormer.  At best that is reckless reporting.

For example, Joe Rogan took Ivermectin that was produced for human consumption.  And yet CNN reported that he took horse de-wormer.  Rolling Stone ran with it as well. 









						'Crazy Times': Joe Rogan Got Covid and Ate a Cocktail of Meds Including a Horse Dewormer
					

Podcaster and comedian said he took ivermectin, which has not been proven to effectively treat the coronavirus




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 6, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Neither.  I am referring to the fact that the media often failed to acknowledge that people were taking the form of the medication that is intended for human consumption - albeit for an off-label use.  You know as well as I do that they wanted to give the impression by omission that the drug was only for animals.
> 
> Put another way, I saw many examples of the media, without knowing the actual source of Ivermectin, make a factual statement that someone was taking horse de-wormer.  At best that is reckless reporting.
> 
> ...


You have too much rational thinking and not enough finger pointing and assumptions going on for this thread.


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

In this age of internet access, "main stream media" should only be a starting point of what's happening. Not the true nor authoritative source of what's actually happened.

The same can be said of any source, be it social media like FB, or for that matter AZ.

Learning to distinguish sources, online or even in real world, is a critical yet often neglected skill. That's unfortunate. Should have been a required subject in school.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jan 6, 2022)

Going back to the original title of this thread...I'd like to see a lot more outdoor apres-ski entertainment at ski ares.   They already have it in CO and France, I don't know why we can't enjoy it here too.


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## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> .I'd like to see a lot more outdoor apres-ski entertainment at ski ares. They already have it in CO and France, I don't know why we can't enjoy it here too.


Weather?


----------



## x10003q (Jan 6, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Neither.  I am referring to the fact that the media often failed to acknowledge that people were taking the form of the medication that is intended for human consumption - albeit for an off-label use.  You know as well as I do that they wanted to give the impression by omission that the drug was only for animals.
> 
> Put another way, I saw many examples of the media, without knowing the actual source of Ivermectin, make a factual statement that someone was taking horse de-wormer.  At best that is reckless reporting.
> 
> ...


You should read the Rolling Stone article. It will tell you the FDA  approved uses for ivermectin. Covid is not one of the uses.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 6, 2022)

x10003q said:


> You should read the Rolling Stone article. It will tell you the FDA  approved uses for ivermectin. Covid is not one of the uses.


Dude the title of the article says “Joe Rogan ate a cocktail of Meds, including a horse dewormer”. Yes the astute reader can go farther and ascertain that Ivermectin is approved and used for humans just not for covid, but the average person reads a headline and sees none of that. Which then puts the idea in their head that Ivermectin is a horse dewormer only. It’s sad that click-baity titles obscuring the truth are what gets clicks and engagement now, and “news” sites of all political affiliation love to cause contention for profit.


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## skef (Jan 6, 2022)

Thread cleanse: just imagine skiing on a comet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479035525247946754


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## MadPadraic (Jan 7, 2022)

abc said:


> Weather?


No. I once went to a large outdoor concert at Vail in 15" degree weather after the sun had gone down. It was very fun. We just kept our snowsports clothing on (and even added an extra layer).  Besides it doesn't have to be all or nothing--events can get moved or postponed if it is truely too cold or pissing freezing rain. 

Last winter Brookline and Somerville became paradises in the winter with restaurants putting in wind shelters and heaters to maintain outdoor eating and drinking.  This is totally doable, but perhaps New Englanders just aren't a very hearty bunch.


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## Geoff (Jan 7, 2022)

abc said:


> Science is indeed always "evolving". Would anyone who follow Newton's law have to "admit" he's wrong when Einstein came up with General Relativity? You know, they don't have to, they just "adapt".
> 
> On the "other side", we know a stopped clock can be "right" twice a day. It's just plain "wrong" the rest of the day.


Err….  Newtonian physics works just fine until you have velocities near the speed of light.  I rarely ski much faster than 30 mph.  My car rarely goes beyond 80 mph.  The commercial flights I take stay below the speed of sound.  I don’t think I’ve ever exceeded 700 mph.   In my low speed universe, I can use Newton and Einstein interchangeably and get the same results. 

Medicine is different from physics.  Issac Newton died in 1727.   Nobody in their right mind would use medicine from 1727.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Dude the title of the article says “Joe Rogan ate a cocktail of Meds, including a horse dewormer”. Yes the astute reader can go farther and ascertain that Ivermectin is approved and used for humans just not for covid, but the average person reads a headline and sees none of that. Which then puts the idea in their head that Ivermectin is a horse dewormer only. It’s sad that click-baity titles obscuring the truth are what gets clicks and engagement now, and “news” sites of all political affiliation love to cause contention for profit.


No.  The title of the article is satire highlighting medical quackery.  Just like the pretty much daily Herman Cain Award winners that show up in my news feed.  The California Assistant DA was national news this week.  “Prominent anti-vaxer dies of COVID” is an object of ridicule.


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## Geoff (Jan 7, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Going back to the original title of this thread...I'd like to see a lot more outdoor apres-ski entertainment at ski ares.   They already have it in CO and France, I don't know why we can't enjoy it here too.


Going back to the title of the thread, there won’t be many permanent changes to skiing from COVID-19.   Ski resorts will continue to be alcohol fueled places with people jammed together being social.   The single male/female ratio will continue to be 10:1.  

I think the biggest change is telecommuting.  You don’t have to be a ski bum or a trustafarian to live at a ski resort.  The housing problem caused by that is going to continue to cause staffing problems.   I telecommuted out of Killington for a decade wintering there and on the coast in the summer.  In 2009, that was really unusual.  In 2022, it’s totally normal.


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## tumbler (Jan 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Similar story, Dad wouldn't let anyone get Vaxx'd
> Dad then got covid, spent 35 days in the Hosp., before he passed
> Wife and 2 kids still not gonna get Vaxx.
> Nothing you can do anymore.....
> ...


This is awful, I'm sorry for you and your family.  

With many stories like these with unvaxxed pleading from their ICU bed for people to get vaxxed and poeple still refuse to.  We are doomed.  Heck, even Trump got boosted and was booed at his own rally for getting the booster.  Can't make this shit up.


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## boston_e (Jan 7, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> No. I once went to a large outdoor concert at Vail in 15" degree weather after the sun had gone down. It was very fun. We just kept our snowsports clothing on (and even added an extra layer).  Besides it doesn't have to be all or nothing--events can get moved or postponed if it is truely too cold or pissing freezing rain.
> 
> Last winter Brookline and Somerville became paradises in the winter with restaurants putting in wind shelters and heaters to maintain outdoor eating and drinking.  This is totally doable, but perhaps New Englanders just aren't a very hearty bunch.


I hear what you are saying, but I do think that on average, the weather out west is generally more conducive to outdoor apres ski than it is in New England - and there is a huge difference in average temps between metro Boston and ski country in Maine and NH.

With that said, I do think a lot of what is already done for outdoor concerts etc in New England is great and could potentially be expanded upon.


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## skiur (Jan 7, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Please lock and/or delete this fucking thread. Useless.
> You’re an idiot- no you are!
> Blah, blah , fucking blah!



Who is going to lock it, moderators are part of it!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

Local music club in our town in coastal NH did outdoor shows last year up until about December 15th and started up again March 17th.  There were more cancellations due to weather than actual events held in the late fall and early spring.  The biggest issue is it's damn hard to get your fingers to work on a guitar when it's 20 degrees out.   You really need a bunch of heaters on stage.


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## skiur (Jan 7, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> No. I once went to a large outdoor concert at Vail in 15" degree weather after the sun had gone down. It was very fun. We just kept our snowsports clothing on (and even added an extra layer).  Besides it doesn't have to be all or nothing--events can get moved or postponed if it is truely too cold or pissing freezing rain.
> 
> Last winter Brookline and Somerville became paradises in the winter with restaurants putting in wind shelters and heaters to maintain outdoor eating and drinking.  This is totally doable, but perhaps New Englanders just aren't a very hearty bunch.


15 degrees isn't bad, I tailgate at 15.  Problem is late December thru early March in new England at elevation it's often single digits.  Add in 30 mph wind and it's a lot worse.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 7, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Going back to the title of the thread, there won’t be many permanent changes to skiing from COVID-19.   Ski resorts will continue to be alcohol fueled places with people jammed together being social.   The single male/female ratio will continue to be 10:1.
> 
> I think the biggest change is telecommuting.  You don’t have to be a ski bum or a trustafarian to live at a ski resort.  The housing problem caused by that is going to continue to cause staffing problems.   I telecommuted out of Killington for a decade wintering there and on the coast in the summer.  In 2009, that was really unusual.  In 2022, it’s totally normal.


Yep, no more cheap housing in ski towns, no more cheap property. I see this being one of the biggest long term issues.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 8, 2022)

Geoff said:


> No. The title of the article is satire highlighting medical quackery.



If you have to equate a news outlet to The Onion in order to prop up your position, it’s time to reassess your position.


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## Geoff (Jan 8, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> If you have to equate a news outlet to The Onion in order to prop up your position, it’s time to reassess your position.


The Rolling Stone is a “news outlet”?   Whatever.


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## JimG. (Jan 8, 2022)

skiur said:


> Who is going to lock it, moderators are part of it!


I agree with you and Smelly it is a useless thread. 

But I don't think it is political which is the main reason for locking threads. I don't think it's a moderator's job to lock threads because they are stupid or useless. Or because the topic annoys someone.

I scan these threads but no longer read them. Suggest you do the same.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 8, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I agree with you and Smelly it is a useless thread.
> 
> But I don't think it is political which is the main reason for locking threads. I don't think it's a moderator's job to lock threads because they are stupid or useless. Or because the topic annoys someone.
> 
> I scan these threads but no longer read them. Suggest you do the same.


Also has the benefit of “quarantining” most of this crap to one thread


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## VTKilarney (Jan 8, 2022)

Geoff said:


> The Rolling Stone is a “news outlet”?   Whatever.



Rolling Stone claims that they are.  True, they make up stories like college rape scandals.  But they are not a satirical website, which is why your argument fails.


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## Geoff (Jan 9, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Rolling Stone claims that they are.  True, they make up stories like college rape scandals.  But they are not a satirical website, which is why your argument fails.


Hunter S Thompson.  You can’t be serious.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Hunter S Thompson.  You can’t be serious.



i'm not sure which point you are trying to argue regarding the good doctor here. yes, HST didn't write 'news' in the walter kronkite sense, but he covered very serious shit for RS and otherwise. he worked the politics beat for decades. he rode the press bus and was RS' correspondent on many campaigns (most famously 1972). HST was a satirist, but he was a deadly serious man who wrote about deadly serious things. i would have loved HST's perspective on both the trump years, and covid. in more recent years rolling stone has covered other serious topics, sometimes in a newsier way than hunter. the first to come to mind is matt taiibi before he went all fucking crazy.


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## Andrew B. (Jan 12, 2022)

Study: Cannabis compounds prevent coronavirus from entering human cells
					

A new study published by researchers at Oregon State University found hemp compounds have the ability to prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from entering human cells.




					www.clickondetroit.com


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Study: Cannabis compounds prevent coronavirus from entering human cells
> 
> 
> A new study published by researchers at Oregon State University found hemp compounds have the ability to prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from entering human cells.
> ...



and that explains my stellar track record of not getting covid despite lots of exposure including crowded indoor concerts and clubs


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## Smellytele (Jan 12, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Study: Cannabis compounds prevent coronavirus from entering human cells
> 
> 
> A new study published by researchers at Oregon State University found hemp compounds have the ability to prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from entering human cells.
> ...


My 2 friends who smoke on a regular basis both got covid . One in October, one has it now.


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## abc (Jan 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My 2 friends who smoke on a regular basis both got covid . One in October, one has it now.


Hahaha!!!

"Prevent" the virus "from entering human cell"! Your friends must not be human!   

But then, they don't live in Oregon, do they? It's only "human" living in Oregon hardened by weed can "prevent" Covid virus!!!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My 2 friends who smoke on a regular basis both got covid . One in October, one has it now.



Not our teammate? If he's the guy who has it now I would have asked him to share a joint after the race tonight.  Hot Box the car Bob Covid Marley style.  Get me out of my damn business trip.


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## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Not our teammate? If he's the guy who has it now I would have asked him to share a joint after the race tonight.  Hot Box the car Bob Covid Marley style.  Get me out of my damn business trip.


No not him.


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## drjeff (Jan 13, 2022)

Here you go DHS, hot off the presses!









						All Cancun Entry Requirements Including Health Form Have Been Removed
					

Removal Of Health Questionnaire Sees Off The Last Official COVID Related Entry Requirement Mirroring Pre-Pandemic Era




					thecancunsun.com
				




I am sure that this will certianly change your desire to travel to Mexico with your company!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Here you go DHS, hot off the presses!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I'm not potentially getting trapped anymore?  That's a relief.  Still pissed I'm missing a skiing weekend


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## abc (Jan 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> So I'm not potentially getting trapped anymore?  That's a relief.  Still pissed I'm missing a skiing weekend


???

Are you worried getting "trapped" at home?

What's "removed" is going to Cancun. Coming back home is still unchanged.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

I only glanced at it and assumed it meant testing requirements for return are no longer needed.


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## abc (Jan 13, 2022)

Only the US government can remove that


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

Im aware.  Like I said I only glanced at it.  Just assumed Dr J was sharing good news


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## drjeff (Jan 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Im aware.  Like I said I only glanced at it.  Just assumed Dr J was sharing good news



Pretty much all it means is that *if* you get Covid in Cancun, you won't be locked up in your room having to have the staff bring you rounds of tropical drinks is how I interpret this. Nor will they keep you in Mexico.

Once back in the US, then you may need to self quarantine if positive for however many days the CDC feels like telling people they should at that moment in time


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Pretty much all it means is that *if* you get Covid in Cancun, you won't be locked up in your room having to have the staff bring you rounds of tropical drinks is how I interpret this. Nor will they keep you in Mexico.
> 
> Once back in the US, then you may need to self quarantine if positive for however many days the CDC feels like telling people they should at that moment in time



I'm going to point out again that I didn't read the article.  ABC apparently did and commented it says Mexico changed their rules which doesn't matter.  US rules dictate when I come home.  That's true

You felt my desperation Doc.  Have given me hope like you were my personal smuggler to re- patriot.  

I'm going to request you call the Mexican/US embassy on my behalf if this doesn't work out.


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## drjeff (Jan 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm going to point out again that I didn't read the article.  ABC apparently did and commented it says Mexico changed their rules which doesn't matter.  US rules dictate when I come home.  That's true
> 
> You felt my desperation Doc.  Have given me hope like you were my personal smuggler to re- patriot.
> 
> I'm going to request you call the Mexican/US embassy on my behalf if this doesn't work out.



Game on! And if it helps, one of my staff member's daughter in law got "trapped" in Aruba last week due to a positive Covid test prior to trying to fly back to the US.

Apparently she spent 5 extra days out on the balcony of her hotel room, over looking the Carribean, with the hotel staff bringing her meals and drinks whenever she wanted. Now if one has to "quarantine" that sounds like a decent scenario to quarantine in. Sunshine, ocean views and breezes and plenty of tropical drinks delivered to the door of your hotel room. And apparently when she coordinated with the hotel maids, if she was on her balcony, and closed the sliding door to her balcony, the maids would come in and do their usual towel/linen/bar re-stocking service as well!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Game on! And if it helps, one of my staff member's daughter in law got "trapped" in Aruba last week due to a positive Covid test prior to trying to fly back to the US.
> 
> Apparently she spent 5 extra days out on the balcony of her hotel room, over looking the Carribean, with the hotel staff bringing her meals and drinks whenever she wanted. Now if one has to "quarantine" that sounds like a decent scenario to quarantine in. Sunshine, ocean views and breezes and plenty of tropical drinks delivered to the door of your hotel room. And apparently when she coordinated with the hotel maids, if she was on her balcony, and closed the sliding door to her balcony, the maids would come in and do their usual towel/linen/bar re-stocking service as well!




No doubt

As a manically busy and committed dad of a 3 and 6 year old, 5 days of alone and quiet time on a balcony overlooking the ocean in Mexico sounds AMAZING.

What it comes down to is being uncomfortable being sequestered away from the family against my will.


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## skiur (Jan 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Game on! And if it helps, one of my staff member's daughter in law got "trapped" in Aruba last week due to a positive Covid test prior to trying to fly back to the US.
> 
> Apparently she spent 5 extra days out on the balcony of her hotel room, over looking the Carribean, with the hotel staff bringing her meals and drinks whenever she wanted. Now if one has to "quarantine" that sounds like a decent scenario to quarantine in. Sunshine, ocean views and breezes and plenty of tropical drinks delivered to the door of your hotel room. And apparently when she coordinated with the hotel maids, if she was on her balcony, and closed the sliding door to her balcony, the maids would come in and do their usual towel/linen/bar re-stocking service as well!


Who paid for the extra 5 days?


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## drjeff (Jan 14, 2022)

skiur said:


> Who paid for the extra 5 days?


Out of her own pocket, but apparently the resort has a "Covid quarrantine rate" that was substantially less than the "regular rate" - given that there's apparebtly not too much travel demand down there right now, available room space for incoming guests I guess wasn't an issue


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2022)




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## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2022)

The resort I am staying at in late February does not charge for a quarantine room if it is needed.


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## da-bum (Jan 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Pretty much all it means is that *if* you get Covid in Cancun, you won't be locked up in your room having to have the staff bring you rounds of tropical drinks is how I interpret this. Nor will they keep you in Mexico.
> 
> Once back in the US, then you may need to self quarantine if positive for however many days the CDC feels like telling people they should at that moment in time


The airline won't let you board and fly back to the US if you have a positive covid test.  Then again, since it is the airline's responsibility to ensure the passenger is covid negative, I don't know if it is their highest priority.  When I was travelling back thru the airport in Cancun, there was only one employee manning all the self service kiosk, validating that everyone has a negative covid test before he authorizes the kiosk so it allows us to check in.  With so many people handle, he just asked us a couple of questions like vaccine and test, then allowed us to proceed.  He probably thought that we are America's problem now.

Other countries, when I was entering, had government agencies check the results of the covid test, and I was pretty worried then, since they specifically looked at the time of the test (less than 72 hrs), and had to be 92% accurate.  I was concerned whether Abbot's ID NOW rapid test being 87% accurate in clinical studies, but further clarification was that they needed PCR test, which again the test I took is similar but not exactly PCR, but even further clarification by the overseas US embassy was that they were looking for 'molecular' test, which is test for genetic material of the virus, which my test does do, and I was relieved.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 14, 2022)

da-bum said:


> The airline won't let you board and fly back to the US if you have a positive covid test.  Then again, since it is the airline's responsibility to ensure the passenger is covid negative, I don't know if it is their highest priority.  When I was travelling back thru the airport in Cancun, there was only one employee manning all the self service kiosk, validating that everyone has a negative covid test before he authorizes the kiosk so it allows us to check in.  With so many people handle, he just asked us a couple of questions like vaccine and test, then allowed us to proceed.  He probably thought that we are America's problem now.
> 
> Other countries, when I was entering, had government agencies check the results of the covid test, and I was pretty worried then, since they specifically looked at the time of the test (less than 72 hrs), and had to be 92% accurate.  I was concerned whether Abbot's ID NOW rapid test being 87% accurate in clinical studies, but further clarification was that they needed PCR test, which again the test I took is similar but not exactly PCR, but even further clarification by the overseas US embassy was that they were looking for 'molecular' test, which is test for genetic material of the virus, which my test does do, and I was relieved.


Such a pain, can’t wait for all this testing crap to be done


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## abc (Jan 15, 2022)

I just don't bother with flying. Never mind going to another country. Not on my time and money anyway (my friend flies for work. Got stuck once. But his company pays both the expense and his time in quarantine).


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## Edd (Jan 15, 2022)

abc said:


> I just don't bother with flying. Never mind going to another country. Not on my time and money anyway (my friend flies for work. Got stuck once. But his company pays both the expense and his time in quarantine).


I’m now two years without flying, which hasn’t happened in the last couple of decades. I’ll probably go 3 before this is over. Getting determined to ski west next year.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2022)

Edd said:


> I’m now two years without flying, which hasn’t happened in the last couple of decades. I’ll probably go 3 before this is over. Getting determined to ski west next year.


Same, I flew back from Ireland the day Trump announced a travel ban from Europe. Stressful day. 2 weeks to flatten the curve everyone. I won’t travel to Europe till things get back to normal. Haven’t flown in the US either but would be more willing.


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## abc (Jan 15, 2022)

Edd said:


> Getting determined to ski west next year.


I drove. 

I WFH, so just move my “home”


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## da-bum (Jan 15, 2022)

I flew last year just when they opened up their country, with a very strict requirement of nobody leaving one's 'resort'.  My trip had an even more strict requirement with having to be in a bubble as soon as we exit the airport, transported independently to a chartered boat, with no pre-sailing stay-over, tour or trips.  We were eventually seabound for the whole week so I wasn't worried after we set sail.


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## Andrew B. (Jan 19, 2022)

[IMG alt="KustyTheKlown"]https://forums.alpinezone.com/data/avatars/m/17/17364.jpg?1606446321[/IMG]
KustyTheKlown​Well-known member​two people who joined our little northeastern ski forum solely to spew covid disinformation can drop dead for all i care.

assuming this was meant for me and to prove to DHS that I do read most content here I thought this belonged here.

if supposing why some people (not I as I am vaccinated 3x) might be vaccine hesitant is “misinformation” I guess I am guilty as charged.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2022)

you dont need to assume, it was directed to you by name you fucking tool.


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## Andrew B. (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you dont need to assume, it was directed to you by name you fucking tool.


Not really but ok if you say so
Clown


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2022)

learn to read before dropping dead, idiot.


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## Andrew B. (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> learn to read before dropping dead, idiot.
> 
> View attachment 52777


What ever you say
The post I quoted did not


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2022)

Do I have to lock this thread? 

Take the battle to private messages guys.  Really not interested in doing much refereeing in the threads.  Everyone knows where you both are solidly planted on this subject


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## JimG. (Jan 19, 2022)

Such anger is troubling; I don't care what "side" you are on.
Agree with dhs I don't want to referee this argument anymore.


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## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Do I have to lock this thread?
> 
> Take the battle to private messages guys.  Really not interested in doing much refereeing in the threads.  Everyone knows where you both are solidly planted on this subject


Yes lock it


----------

