# What is the most challenging glade trail here in the East coast?



## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

I just started skiing glades this past season and love the extra challenge of trees in the way. I was wondering what the most challenging glades are from the experts here in the Northeast. I've skied close to all the marked glades at Killington, Jay, Stowe, and Sugarbush along with some unmarked stuff which was mostly at Stowe. I've found the trees to the skiers left off of Paradise at Sugarbush to be the most challenging followed by the trees off either side of Bypass at Stowe. In any event I was wondering what is considered the toughest glade run in the east?

Tony


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2019)

So I guess stuff like the woods between Paradise and Church that is not exactly on the map but well known enough counts. Stuff like Cannon's Bear Gut or MRG 3 Cliffs etc which aren't on maps and involve mandatory cliff drops I'll leave off the list because then we can just start listing biggest cliff drops and that's kind of another scenario. Backcountry that requires a walk / shuttle I'll leave out too

In no particular order...

Cannon + Jay: Wicked Haaard (on map), lower 1/2 of the trail is a narrow staircase reminds me of the top of Everglade/Staircase at Jay except goes on longer and you probably have less powdery snow. Never had a chance to ski Kinsman Glade I hear that's got a pretty steep section, but others say it's overrated. Back to Jay, anything off the top of the tram/ridge/chutes would qualify.

Bolton Valley: Devils Playground has a few chutes with some tight turns and very steep for a relatively short section. Lost Girlz (to the left past the entrance of Lost Boyz) is very difficult to actually ski due to steep/tight factor but not super long. The most extreme thing at Bolton is Centerline chute but I'm breaking my own rules with that one..

Smuggs: Woods next to Freefall and Black Hole should qualify easily

Killington: Bottom of Julio is steep and rocky but otherwise not too much on that level, maybe Devil's Den

Magic: Wardrobe has a couple steep technical sections, also whatever they call the woods to the skiers right of Red Line up top are pretty tight and steep with a nice optional rock drop. I'm sure at least a couple other woods zones there would qualify too.

Stowe, you already know the unmarked stuff, it's easy to find and well mapped(unofficially). I find woods right off Chin Clip (well before Angel Food starts) to be pretty narrow and gnarly. Tomba's Chute is pretty steep for a bit at the bottom, nice warm up run.

Pico: Busted is right next to Poma Line and might even be the hardest one on this list. It's pretty ridiculous and beyond narrow.

Whiteface: Do you call The Slides a "glade"? Some are more than others. Never had the chance to ski them myself.

Sugarloaf: There's some shots off the backside snowfields that qualify as Eastern extreme, or practically define that term. Good luck figuring your way in and out of there.

Mad River Glen: Paradise and especially anything unmarked beyond Paradise. I'd also say there's a couple shorter shots off the double chair that would be worth checking out.


For #1 the surprise winner is "BEAST" at Berkshire East. Pretty darn steep and narrow but the kicker is, you're guaranteed to absolutely shred your skis on rocks even if they have for some rare reason dropped the rope.


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## p_levert (Oct 19, 2019)

I think off-the-map should not be discussed.  Off-the-map, you can find things that are uber-challenging.  I think there's some crazy stuff at Stowe that you don't know about.

For on-the-map tough glades, I have to vote for Killington: Julio, Anarchy, Growler and Centerpiece are all difficult classics.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2019)

p_levert said:


> Julio, Anarchy, Growler and Centerpiece are all difficult classics.



Reminding me of last season getting first tracks on Julio and Anarchy on a 30" powder day. Difficult was the last word that would have come to mind. I felt like Kirby in Dreamland :lol:


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

Yes I have skied all of those runs at Killington.  The Bear mountain glades and especially Anarchy & Julio are outstanding trails. I think Killington is so underrated as far as their glades go. I had just as much fun in the trees at Killington as I did anywhere else.


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> So I guess stuff like the woods between Paradise and Church that is not exactly on the map but well known enough counts. Stuff like Cannon's Bear Gut or MRG 3 Cliffs etc which aren't on maps and involve mandatory cliff drops I'll leave off the list because then we can just start listing biggest cliff drops and that's kind of another scenario. Backcountry that requires a walk / shuttle I'll leave out too
> 
> In no particular order...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the great insight! I plan on skiing MRG this year and have heard not to go to far off into the woods on the Paradise trail as there as some pretty big cliff drops out of bounds.


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

p_levert said:


> I think off-the-map should not be discussed.  Off-the-map, you can find things that are uber-challenging.  I think there's some crazy stuff at Stowe that you don't know about.
> 
> For on-the-map tough glades, I have to vote for Killington: Julio, Anarchy, Growler and Centerpiece are all difficult classics.



Julio is my favorite trail at Killington. I thought Centerpiece was the most challenging.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 19, 2019)

Recommend doing the woods off Upper Antelope at MRG before going past Paradise. 19th/20th hole. After a couple turns up top there's a pretty obvious entrance. Top is very narrow singletrack and bermy, then there's a few open steeper sections, then you head back left toward Lower Antelope and go straight across that trail through more short woods right to the lift.

See where it says "Top of UFO Bowl" ? good zone


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## machski (Oct 19, 2019)

No one tends to like putting these in, but SR has some great glades that are difficult on map.  HardBall and Chutzpah off Whitecap are fun with multiple lines, some of which require mandatory air.  Poppy fields are tight lines, the routes furthest to the right are the best.  Tight, narrow lines, reminds me of some woods at Jay.  Blind Ambition, if you enter on the double diamond entrance is tight and steep at points as well.

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## The Sneak (Oct 19, 2019)

Beast is ridiculous. I climbed up and out of it going nope nope nope nope and I’m not exactly a terrible skier.

Berkshire East does have some fun more mellow trees though...getting older I find myself enjoying stuff like the trees off green line and the Hallows at Magic, beaver pond at Jay etc


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## deadheadskier (Oct 19, 2019)

Not on map, but I'd put Ossipee chute at Wildcat up there with anything I've skied in the East.  Steep as hell, very tight in spots, 8-10 footer with a sketchy landing.  You can take your skis off and hike around it, but there's no way to ski around it.  I've probably skied it ten times and only had the balls for the drop twice when the base was deep and plenty of fresh on top.  Even without the drop, I haven't skied it in a couple of seasons. I haven't been in good enough shape the past couple of seasons to trust my skills in there.  

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## Zand (Oct 19, 2019)

Don't laugh, but the toughest time I've ever had getting down an on map glade is one of the ones off the summit at Sunapee. Coverage was awful and the terrain was surprisingly steep and tight. Shock to the system considering the mountain you're on.

I've skied Kinsman quite a few times and didn't find it overly difficult. The first time I skied it I expected it to be like tramline with trees but it's surprisingly friendly in comparison. Very long with no bailouts though so don't commit until you know you're ready to ski it. Ultimately it's really up to the coverage. Good snow makes tough glades easier than easy glades with terrible snow. I love Julio at Killington, but oftentimes the hardest part of the entire run is navigating the skating rink that Flume usually turns into. Paradise at MRG is another good one, but I first skied it like 6 years ago so I never went down it when I would've considered it over my head. Everglade, Staircase, Vertigo, etc at Jay are steep and tight but the snow is usually so good up there that they're easier to ski than if the same trails were at Cannon or something.


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## p_levert (Oct 19, 2019)

Upon further reflection, if I had to pick a single on-the-map glade, I would go with Paradise at MRG.  It's usually pretty icy and there's the frozen waterfall at the top.  And it's steep and stays open for a good part of the season.  So if I had to pick one toughest on-the-map glade, that would be it.

No comments on off-the-map stuff.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Oct 19, 2019)

Of my experience I'd say any of the chutes off of the jay tran take the cake for being the most extreme/challenging but I do have to give a mention to the Plunge at mount snow which is next to Ripcord. Short run but has multiple cliffs and is probably steeper than the cut trail itself. Those glades need to be trimmed again though... Do AZ'ers have a name for those annoying whip plants you get at lower elevations?


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## Zand (Oct 19, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Of my experience I'd say any of the chutes off of the jay tran take the cake for being the most extreme/challenging but I do have to give a mention to the Plunge at mount snow which is next to Ripcord. Short run but has multiple cliffs and is probably steeper than the cut trail itself. Those glades need to be trimmed again though... Do AZ'ers have a name for those annoying whip plants you get at lower elevations?



All the times ive been to mount snow and I never knew that existed till you just mentioned it. If I ever ski there again I'll,have to check it out


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## Sirbannedalot (Oct 19, 2019)

Is this glade skiers right near the top, drops down around the backside somewhat and comes into the lower glades the furthest to skiers right on the map?


deadheadskier said:


> Not on map, but I'd put Ossipee chute at Wildcat up there with anything I've skied in the East.  Steep as hell, very tight in spots, 8-10 footer with a sketchy landing.  You can take your skis off and hike around it, but there's no way to ski around it.  I've probably skied it ten times and only had the balls for the drop twice when the base was deep and plenty of fresh on top.  Even without the drop, I haven't skied it in a couple of seasons. I haven't been in good enough shape the past couple of seasons to trust my skills in there.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ss20 (Oct 19, 2019)

Devil's Den at Killington gets my vote.  It's a crazy 5-15 foot wide skiable "chute" with impenetrable brush on either side.  Air is not mandatory but it's available.  I don't think patrol has opened it (the top part) in the past couple of years.  

The trees to the left of Sugarbush Paradise are probably harder but I don't venture too deep in there knowing I could get myself in big trouble really quickly.  


Really though this is all relative to what you think makes a "challenging" glade.  For me, the challenge goes up as I have less and less options.  That's why Devil's Den gets my vote- once you're in there are many spots where you have two routes down to point your skis and that's it.  The reality is in many tree skiing areas unless you get "cliffed out" you can navigate down as long as you've got snow...unconnected turns, sideslipping, traversing.


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Devil's Den at Killington gets my vote.  It's a crazy 5-15 foot wide skiable "chute" with impenetrable brush on either side.  Air is not mandatory but it's available.  I don't think patrol has opened it (the top part) in the past couple of years.
> 
> The trees to the left of Sugarbush Paradise are probably harder but I don't venture too deep in there knowing I could get myself in big trouble really quickly.
> 
> ...



Devils Den is probably my 2nd favorite trail at Killington after Julio but I thought Centerpiece (which I skied the same day as Devils Den) was a little more challenging. Maybe it was the line I took. In any event, the woods off Paradise at Sugarbush are steeper and in some areas tighter than anything on the map at Killington.


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Of my experience I'd say any of the chutes off of the jay tran take the cake for being the most extreme/challenging but I do have to give a mention to the Plunge at mount snow which is next to Ripcord. Short run but has multiple cliffs and is probably steeper than the cut trail itself. Those glades need to be trimmed again though... Do AZ'ers have a name for those annoying whip plants you get at lower elevations?



I have to agree with you on the chutes off the top at Jay. The face chutes were closed the days I was up there but I did get a chance to ski tuckermans chute and it's one of the most challenging runs that I've ever been on. I'm not sure though that I'd consider it a glade trail. It does have trees in the way but there is open terrain on it as well.


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## Tonyr (Oct 19, 2019)

p_levert said:


> Upon further reflection, if I had to pick a single on-the-map glade, I would go with Paradise at MRG.  It's usually pretty icy and there's the frozen waterfall at the top.  And it's steep and stays open for a good part of the season.  So if I had to pick one toughest on-the-map glade, that would be it.
> 
> No comments on off-the-map stuff.



I haven't been on Paradise at MRG yet (I plan on skiing MRG for the 1st time this year) but the videos I've seen make it look like the trail has quite a bit of open terrain with some trees in the way so I'm not sure that Paradise would be considered a glade trail. A colleague of mine skied it a number of times this year and said that the trees to the skiers left of the trail were much more challenging than the actual trail itself.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 19, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> ... Do AZ'ers have a name for those annoying whip plants you get at lower elevations?



pucker brush



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## BenedictGomez (Oct 19, 2019)

p_levert said:


> *I think off-the-map should not be discussed.*



Well, given the OP is asking about glade *TRAILS*, it definitely should not be discussed.


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## Griswold (Oct 19, 2019)

Maybe I took a wrong turn once in there and left the “on map” section but if not my vote goes to Bravinator woods at Sugarbush.  I stayed a little left after entering and it got so tight it wasn’t even as wide as my skis for about the entire second half of the run.  Real gnarly if that area was still what the mountain considers the trail.  While not on the map, the entrance skiers’s right on the top of birch run led to what was the longest,sketchiest chute I’ve ever skied.  Maybe it would have been better with some fresh snow but it was a luge track when I did it and was so dicey.  Come around a corner and there’s people stopped and there’s nothing you can do to avoid hitting them (or hitting trees).  Eventually opened up to some decent skiing but not worth dealing with the top section in my opinion.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 19, 2019)

Two or 3 people have mentioned the chutes at Jay, which is odd, because I wouldnt even consider them glades.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 19, 2019)

My vote would go to (and I might be defying the rules, but only slightly) the area between Everglades & Staircase at Jay Peak.  I once fell in there and got stuck upside down in a tree, kind of like Luck Skywalker on Planet Hoth.  Scariest thing that's ever happened to me while skiing, made scarier by the fact it was last run & my woods skiing partner was well ahead of me.


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## Zand (Oct 19, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> I haven't been on Paradise at MRG yet (I plan on skiing MRG for the 1st time this year) but the videos I've seen make it look like the trail has quite a bit of open terrain with some trees in the way so I'm not sure that Paradise would be considered a glade trail. A colleague of mine skied it a number of times this year and said that the trees to the skiers left of the trail were much more challenging than the actual trail itself.



It does start as a narrow, but open trail (including the waterfall area), but the second half is a fully gladed area.


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## ceo (Oct 19, 2019)

Having skied both a few times I'd rate Kinsman Glade over MRG Paradise, in part because it's a good bit longer and just as steep with tighter trees. Haven't tried Wicked Haaaahhhd yet, but I love the name.  
Though I did get in trouble a few years ago in this little steep shot at Jay; unlike any part of Kinsman or Paradise I was really unsure I could get down it. If I'd had any sense I'd have shouldered skis and hiked out. Instead I went for it and ended up sliding headfirst into a boulder. Had a stiff neck for the rest of the day and had to get a new helmet, but it could have ended much, _much_ worse.


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## Harvey (Oct 22, 2019)

I second Kinsman at Cannon.

Slide 4 at Whiteface is right up there.

The difference between the two, that might make the slides easier to manage, they don't open them unless conditions are prime.  I was in Kinsman on some pretty squeaky stryofoam.


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## spiderpig (Oct 22, 2019)

ss20 said:


> The trees to the left of Sugarbush Paradise are probably harder but I don't venture too deep in there knowing I could get myself in big trouble really quickly.



I second the latter part, as I got in there last year on December 1 and did not know when to head right to get back to the trail. I had to traverse over a down tree and a creek, mostly with my skis on because of the amount of fresh snow. I didn't think the skiing part was particularly challenging compared to what I've done at Jay and Killington, though.

Stowe to skier's right of the gondola is the hardest thing I've ever done, but not sure if it counts as it is basically one skier width through the trees more than half of the time. I want to say Stein's Woods at Sugarbush was pretty hard, but it was an hour before sunset for me after skiing trees/moguls almost all day.


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## Tonyr (Oct 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Two or 3 people have mentioned the chutes at Jay, which is odd, because I wouldnt even consider them glades.


Well looking at this map the face chutes are definitely wide open and not a glade. The gladed area to the left with small lines through the trees is Tuckermans chute. I tend to agree that it's not a glade compared to other runs at Jay but it certainly looks like one from this aerial. It's the toughest in bounds run at Jay in my opinion.

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## abc (Oct 22, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Devil's Den at Killington gets my vote.  It's a crazy 5-15 foot wide skiable "chute" with impenetrable brush on either side.  Air is not mandatory but it's available.  I don't think patrol has opened it (the top part) in the past couple of years.
> 
> The trees to the left of Sugarbush Paradise are probably harder but I don't venture too deep in there knowing I could get myself in big trouble really quickly.
> 
> Really though this is all relative to what you think makes a "challenging" glade.  For me, the challenge goes up as I have less and less options.  That's why Devil's Den gets my vote- once you're in there are many spots where you have two routes down to point your skis and that's it.  The reality is in many tree skiing areas unless you get "cliffed out" you can navigate down as long as you've got snow...unconnected turns, sideslipping, traversing.


I thought a "glade" is defined as patch of trees you have multiple lines? 

When the trees got so thick you can't go through, the only skiable path left gets skied into a bobsled run, it's just a ... chute!  

(A "chute" may be super challenging, add cliffs with mandatory air. But those would not be classified as glades? )

I'm not one who seek out the most difficult lines. And I freely admit I don't have the balls (nor the skill) to do any lines with real consequence. But I found the appeal of glades is the variety of paths. One can go back to a patch of glades many times without repeating the same line.


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## Tonyr (Oct 22, 2019)

spiderpig said:


> I second the latter part, as I got in there last year on December 1 and did not know when to head right to get back to the trail. I had to traverse over a down tree and a creek, mostly with my skis on because of the amount of fresh snow. I didn't think the skiing part was particularly challenging compared to what I've done at Jay and Killington, though.
> 
> Stowe to skier's right of the gondola is the hardest thing I've ever done, but not sure if it counts as it is basically one skier width through the trees more than half of the time. I want to say Stein's Woods at Sugarbush was pretty hard, but it was an hour before sunset for me after skiing trees/moguls almost all day.


You can go very far back into the woods off of Paradise at Sugarbush and don't really have to worry about getting lost. The woods dump you out onto bailout which is the trail the connects Lincoln peak to Castlerock. The further you go in the more challenging it gets. If you stay close to the trail there are wide open areas. 

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## bdfreetuna (Oct 22, 2019)

abc said:


> I thought a "glade" is defined as patch of trees you have multiple lines?
> 
> When the trees got so thick you can't go through, the only skiable path left gets skied into a bobsled run, it's just a ... chute!



Well they don't make 'em like Doc Dempsey's Glades any more, really. I think skiers have pushed for more "woods-like" skiing with a variety of obstacles, varying sections and so forth.

You make a good point about this not always being a good thing though. There's a reason Angel Food is highly regarded even if not especially difficult. There are certainly a lot of "glades" that ski more like bobsled runs (top 1/2 of 19th Hole qualifies as such).

We could do another post on "Favorite Glade/Tree runs" and perhaps the answers would be somewhat different instead of just trying to think of the hardest ones to properly ski.

In that case I'd mention Valhalla and Timbuktu at Jay instead of the chutes.


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## spiderpig (Oct 22, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> You can go very far back into the woods off of Paradise at Sugarbush and don't really have to worry about getting lost. The woods dump you out onto bailout which is the trail the connects Lincoln peak to Castlerock. The further you go in the more challenging it gets. If you stay close to the trail there are wide open areas.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using AlpineZone mobile app



Good to know I didn't go far left ENOUGH!


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 22, 2019)

spiderpig said:


> Good to know I didn't go far left ENOUGH!



If you pucker it's pretty flat on the way back to Paradise


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## Tonyr (Oct 22, 2019)

spiderpig said:


> Good to know I didn't go far left ENOUGH!


Btw I believe the out of bounds glades that you are referring off to the skiers right of the gondola at Stowe is called the kitchen wall. I wanted to ski it last year but the glades were too icy the days I was up there. It's on my list to try this season though!

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## Tonyr (Oct 22, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Well they don't make 'em like Doc Dempsey's Glades any more, really. I think skiers have pushed for more "woods-like" skiing with a variety of obstacles, varying sections and so forth.
> 
> You make a good point about this not always being a good thing though. There's a reason Angel Food is highly regarded even if not especially difficult. There are certainly a lot of "glades" that ski more like bobsled runs (top 1/2 of 19th Hole qualifies as such).
> 
> ...


I haven't been to smuggs yet, the terrain looks great there. A favorite glades post I bet would have different responses. Valhalla is my favorite glade there, followed by Kitz woods.  

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## Tonyr (Oct 22, 2019)

Griswold said:


> Maybe I took a wrong turn once in there and left the “on map” section but if not my vote goes to Bravinator woods at Sugarbush.  I stayed a little left after entering and it got so tight it wasn’t even as wide as my skis for about the entire second half of the run.  Real gnarly if that area was still what the mountain considers the trail.  While not on the map, the entrance skiers’s right on the top of birch run led to what was the longest,sketchiest chute I’ve ever skied.  Maybe it would have been better with some fresh snow but it was a luge track when I did it and was so dicey.  Come around a corner and there’s people stopped and there’s nothing you can do to avoid hitting them (or hitting trees).  Eventually opened up to some decent skiing but not worth dealing with the top section in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I've only skied Mt Ellen one day and did get a chance to hit any of the glades. The trees from Bravo woods to Exterminator woods look fantastic.

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## BenedictGomez (Oct 22, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> I believe the out of bounds glades that you are referring off to the skiers right of the gondola at Stowe is called the kitchen wall.



Aye; the graveyard of skis it be.


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## raisingarizona (Oct 22, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Well they don't make 'em like Doc Dempsey's Glades any more, really. I think skiers have pushed for more "woods-like" skiing with a variety of obstacles, varying sections and so forth.
> 
> You make a good point about this not always being a good thing though. There's a reason Angel Food is highly regarded even if not especially difficult. There are certainly a lot of "glades" that ski more like bobsled runs (top 1/2 of 19th Hole qualifies as such).
> 
> ...



Some of the stuff mentioned in here for being difficult kind of sound like they suck. I prefer flow for skiing trees, not that weird two turns to close out to traverse to whatever. I guess that stuff is “hard” but is it really fun?


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## 1dog (Oct 23, 2019)

Then Slidebrook or Walts Woods or even Eden is where you'll find that - the other places that are steeper - well, been skiing them for years but their names tend to escape me - I'm sure others can add those that have long lines with less traversing. They just get skied out very quickly for that same reason.


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## crazy (Oct 23, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Some of the stuff mentioned in here for being difficult kind of sound like they suck. I prefer flow for skiing trees, not that weird two turns to close out to traverse to whatever. I guess that stuff is “hard” but is it really fun?



I completely agree. Most of the terrain that I find fun is challenging, but the converse is often not true. Super tight glades where it's hard to link up turns, or steep icy glades with luge tracks can each be extremely difficult, but generally aren't fun to me. I prefer flow too. I want to be able to safely link together a bunch of turns. I've found that many of the tight, steep glades in the East are really fun right after a storm (but less challenging), but become less fun very quickly as they get tracked out (though they become more challenging). 

To me at least, both skiing in the East and West presents many challenges, but the challenge out West is generally a lot more fun. It might look cooler in a TGR video to see someone making jump turns down a steep couloir, but I would argue that it's probably almost as challenging to make turns down an extremely tight, steep glade here in the East after it's been tracked out and it's icy/a luge track.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 23, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> Btw I believe the out of bounds glades that you are referring off to the skiers right of the gondola at Stowe is called the kitchen wall. I wanted to ski it last year but the glades were too icy the days I was up there. It's on my list to try this season though!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T820 using AlpineZone mobile app



kitchen wall is not immediately skier's right of the gondola line. its further right. its the area between the forerunner pod and the gondola pod. you'll notice that the trail map has the yellow boundary line a bit above rim rock and cliff trail - that is the kitchen wall. 

the woods to skier's right of the gondola (basically between perry merrill and cliff trail) are essentially too tight to ski. i've gone in there and had a bad time.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 23, 2019)

Kitchen wall is not really hard though unless it's icy, it's mainly a scenic traverse and then after the traverse it's very similar to Valhalla at Jay but not as long.

There's many more difficult things at Stowe, among them Tomba's chute, which has both a steep luge track up top and an actual steep chute at the bottom which requires jump turns or at least very high level skiing. Don't suggest attempting on icy or bad snow days. The bottom chute is similar in difficulty to Pump House at Jay IMO, although not lasting as long. My photo absolutely does not do it justice.

top-ish

middle luge track

bottom chute aka Big Tomba


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 23, 2019)

Here's one at Cannon. Something off the summit. Not "Wicked Haaarrd" which is definitely harder and steeper but I didn't take a photo.

(and yes that line was as good as it looks)

View attachment 25471


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## WWF-VT (Oct 23, 2019)

This guys makes Exterminator Woods at Mt Ellen look easy....


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## cdskier (Oct 23, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> This guys makes Exterminator Woods at Mt Ellen look easy....



I wish I could ski tight glades that well...


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## Edd (Oct 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I wish I could ski tight glades that well...



Me too. Those conditions are nice but I think fear alone would screw me. I’d go for much sharper turns to slow me down.


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## tumbler (Oct 23, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> This guys makes Exterminator Woods at Mt Ellen look easy....



Definitely not his first time in there...knew all the turns.


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## Tonyr (Oct 23, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Definitely not his first time in there...knew all the turns.


That guy in the video is multiple time D1 All American skier. He got down in under 2 minutes which is pretty incredible. 

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## Keelhauled (Oct 23, 2019)

Sometimes I think I'm a good skier, and then I see videos like that to bring me down to earth.


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## ss20 (Oct 23, 2019)

Keelhauled said:


> Sometimes I think I'm a good skier, and then I see videos like that to bring me down to earth.



The thing with skiing I've found, compared to other sports, is the talent gap is still huuuuge at the top.  A fantastic recreational mogul skier is going to get absolutely destroyed by someone who does it at the professional level.  At both a technical perspective and a laymen's perspective.  Most of my ski days that I'm skiing in the trees I won't get passed by anyone the whole day (in the woods).  Time to time though I'll be ripping through and someone will fly by me and they seem to just be "dancing" through on skis.  And kicking my ass.  Not by a little...by a lot.  

Bowling...for example, has a narrow gap where the best guy on the local league will average 220 and the pros average 230-240.  Or get a really built, and skilled high school football player.  They might be able to throw it to within a few yards of what the pros can do.


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## abc (Oct 23, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> This guys makes Exterminator Woods at Mt Ellen look easy....


How in the world does he manage NOT to pick up a whole lot of speed with almost no turning at all???


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## Newpylong (Oct 23, 2019)

Not my idea of fun tree skiing lol.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 23, 2019)

he's constantly slightly turning and pivoting on his heels/tails.


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## Smellytele (Oct 23, 2019)

ss20 said:


> The thing with skiing I've found, compared to other sports, is the talent gap is still huuuuge at the top.  A fantastic recreational mogul skier is going to get absolutely destroyed by someone who does it at the professional level.  At both a technical perspective and a laymen's perspective.  Most of my ski days that I'm skiing in the trees I won't get passed by anyone the whole day (in the woods).  Time to time though I'll be ripping through and someone will fly by me and they seem to just be "dancing" through on skis.  And kicking my ass.  Not by a little...by a lot.
> 
> Bowling...for example, has a narrow gap where the best guy on the local league will average 220 and the pros average 230-240.  Or get a really built, and skilled high school football player.  They might be able to throw it to within a few yards of what the pros can do.



Maybe bowling but the skills at high school football nowhere near a pro. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## kingslug (Oct 24, 2019)

I suck at trees..which suck because now I'm a regular at Stowe. I didn't start skiing trees until around 10 years ago and that was out west. I tried to hang with a local at Stowe but he scared the hell out of me..ala The Kitchen Wall..the trees in there weren't too bad but the traverse was sick..if you fall off the side your toast. I just can't get through tight trees without picking up too much speed ..then I fell like I'm going to hit one eventually. But I keep trying as the best conditions at Stowe are usually in the trees. Just hate going in there alone.
The sickest line I have ever seen is Octopus Garden at MRG..you can see it from the chair and I think Krusty skied it the day I was wandering around there.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> he's constantly slightly turning and pivoting on his heels/tails.



looks like some untracked champaign powder too, not really much harder than skiing in a straight line once you get the hang of it..


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## 1dog (Oct 24, 2019)

its amazing how speed can be controlled by knees flexing, absorbing bump/turn and how one 'stands up' just after the pole plant.

you hit a turn and allow speed absorbtion by 'bending z knees' - the more bent, the more speed control. 

and in the trees, as KtK mentioned, the flat foot/heel is important in that technique.  control of speed in trees is far more important than open terrain/trails - go as fast as you like, but you better be able to change course very quickly or stop very quickly. 


I swear I go much faster in trees since helmets came on the scene in the early 90's. probably the same with seatbelts . . . . 

Seriously, if you're too stressed to enjoy yourself in the trees, either pick less grade or practice practice practice.

I just love stuff that pushes me and gives me some stomach willies. . ..


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## abc (Oct 24, 2019)

1dog said:


> I just love stuff that pushes me and gives me some stomach willies. . ..


As I got older, I lost the stomach for such...


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 24, 2019)

kingslug said:


> I suck at trees..which suck because now I'm a regular at Stowe. I didn't start skiing trees until around 10 years ago and that was out west. I tried to hang with a local at Stowe but he scared the hell out of me..ala The Kitchen Wall..the trees in there weren't too bad but the traverse was sick..if you fall off the side your toast. I just can't get through tight trees without picking up too much speed ..then I fell like I'm going to hit one eventually. But I keep trying as the best conditions at Stowe are usually in the trees. Just hate going in there alone.
> The sickest line I have ever seen is Octopus Garden at MRG..you can see it from the chair and I think Krusty skied it the day I was wandering around there.



Easily the most technical line I’ve skied in the east. Mandatory triple cliff section

Here’s the random dude I skied it with clearing the final drop. the cliffs higher are bigger. and all cliffs look smaller from below than when you're standing on them. in octopus, above this photo to lookers left and not in sight in the photo, you need to jump a ~10 footer and stick the landing into an immediate turn to dump speed and avoid trees. not much margin for error. 

the kitchen wall traverse is not scary, come on. to your right is a wall. to your left is tree skiing. its not like you're skiing along a razorblade with death falls on either side.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

^^
one of the few off-map spots I've made a conscious decision to not even mess with

If I was in high school again I'd be all over that (there's some pretty big cliffs at Berkshire East if you know where to look)

These days I'm pretty sure I'd hear my knee go "Pop!" and say goodbye to skiing

You guys/gals brave and competent enough to ski that without even doubting yourself, have my admiration


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## kingslug (Oct 24, 2019)

Just one section where the drop to the left would be in a mess of unskiable trees/brush. Couldn't slow down as much as I wanted to..which sometimes is the prob I have in tight trees...the no way out flume ride.
Although not as nerve wracking as the Saratoga Bowl traverse at JH..thats misery.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 24, 2019)

im glad i didnt wind up in there alone. every time ive ever skied paradise ive stood at the entrance to OG and contemplated, but i am almost always alone at mrg, and none of my close ski friends would fuck with that line anyway. two guys right in front of me went for it and i followed without even asking. linked up on top of the cliffs. good dudes. good skiers. dude in photo was on some moments. i was skiing my moment belafontes that day, so we were kindred. if you go in there alone and things go bad, you're fucked.


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## shwilly (Oct 24, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe bowling but the skills at high school football nowhere near a pro.



Yeah. Bowling's weird because there's a max perfect score that isn't *that* far out of reach for mere mortals, but I get the impression that there are similar, multiple levels of unworldliness for most of the major sports.

A great high school QB might even be able to throw the ball farther in drills than Brady, but would get PTSD facing Bama's defense, much less the pros. A great high school power pitcher might be able to get a few strikes or even an out or two against pro batters, but would get blasted as soon as the players in the dugout figured out their tendencies. 

I expect it would be similar for most sports. Normal people playing elite athletes wouldn't get seriously injured like I would trying to race on the Hahnenkamm, but they'd be no less out of place.

Fortunately, it's fun to be active even for us normal shlubs.


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## kingslug (Oct 24, 2019)

Watching children huck small cliffs at MRG is rather humbling..and their parents are cheering them on...different world up there.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

Speaking of wimping out on stuff.... here's another one I've always just walked past and said "nope"

Have skied Pump House off the ridge a few times (which is a good contender for this list) but the Saddle (below) just seems like a long way to fall

If I ever ski it , certainly would be on a sunny spring day like these guys are attempting to do on their butts


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 24, 2019)

lol wtf is that butt sliding and heel riding about. this guy is the worst, why would he ever upload this. 

cool video tho solely for seeing the terrain, ive never actually gone up to the ridge at jay. i need to.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 24, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol wtf is that butt sliding and heel riding about. this guy is the worst, why would he ever upload this.
> 
> cool video tho solely for seeing the terrain, ive never actually gone up to the ridge at jay. i need to.



On the ridge go all the way to "the end" of the ridge and you'll see Valhalla straight ahead of you below and the tracks will be going around a rock to your left. That takes you into Pump House which I'm pretty sure you'll love. It's almost as steep as Saddle but you're sort of committed before you realize that, so you get a nice little chute thrill ride for about 10 turns before it turns into Valhalla-style trees.

You'll know when you've passed the Saddle because it's obvious, keep going and you can't miss Pump House.

BTW if anyone here is this guy "MyBadVideos" speak up and take credit. I've watched so many videos from this guy, he just explores every nook and cranny and does it solo. Here's a nice example of if you go off trail at Smuggs and don't know where you're going:






And just a post script: If you watch this guys videos he's very chatty and usually does a lot of whoops and whallops. I'm 100% sure I met this fellow at Stateside Lodge a couple seasons ago in the spring, he was chatting me up out of nowhere and saying his favorite places are all the places in his videos, it looked like him, he was alone, same gear, same voice. So pretty much a celebrity sighting as far as I'm concerned. I kind of didn't realize it until after I was walking out of the lodge and never asked/confirmed though.


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## kingslug (Oct 24, 2019)

I don't know how people ski that kind of stuff...


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> these guys are attempting to do on their butts



That video's title should be changed to, _snowboarder destroys terrain._


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 24, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> BTW if anyone here is this guy "MyBadVideos" speak up and take credit. I've watched so many videos from this guy, *he just explores every nook and cranny and does it solo.* Here's a nice example of if you go off trail at Smuggs and don't know where you're going:



So basically, he's an idiot.

I've occasionally seen tracks there & had no idea where they went.  That doesn't look fun at all though, so thick you're barely skiing as opposed to making 1 turn around a tree, then 1 turn around a tree, etc...


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## NYDB (Oct 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> That video's title should be changed to, _snowboarder destroys terrain._



That was tough to watch, especially the first 2 min.  Should be shot on site and put out of misery.  To do that to a fresh powder line is unthinkable.  He seems to not know how to ride powder on a snowboard.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 25, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> That was tough to watch, especially the first 2 min.  Should be shot on site and put out of misery.  To do that to a fresh powder line is unthinkable.  He seems to not know how to ride powder on a snowboard.



Well it looks more like spring slush to me. Just thinking a lot of people end up on their butt on that run and perhaps overestimating the damage done to a Jay Peak spring snowpack at the summit.

Let's be real 9 out of 10 people attempting the Saddle will be side slipping and survival skiing (or wipe out / yardsale), if you can even call that skiing. It's too steep for most typical "expert" skiers to link turns on. Lots of lines off the Face for those who want 100% virgin snow.

So I'm not really hating on the snowboard kids... its not like a glade just opened with minimal snow pack and they left it with exposed rocks and dirt. Couldn't find a better video though


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 25, 2019)

i'm hating on him. and i'd ridicule him if i were there.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 25, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm hating on him. and i'd ridicule him if i were there.



I sure as hell wouldn't have uploaded that video, that much I can tell you!


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## cdskier (Oct 25, 2019)

I can't believe they actually fist bumped each other at the end of that run on the video...I wonder if in their own minds they actually think they handled that trail well...


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 25, 2019)

That's the "we survived" fist bump. Anyone going up there with a GoPro this season? :lol:


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## urungus (Oct 25, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> BTW if anyone here is this guy "MyBadVideos" speak up and take credit. I've watched so many videos from this guy, he just explores every nook and cranny and does it solo. Here's a nice example of if you go off trail at Smuggs and don't know where you're going:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love this guys videos and his whoops.  Seems like he has posted videos of the hardest runs at just about every major northeastern resort, which I have found invaluable for pre-scouting unfamiliar runs just to make sure I won’t be getting in over my head.


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## NYDB (Oct 25, 2019)

I snowboard. That was fucking terrible.  At least try and throw a turn.  That looked very edgeable at the top even if it was a bit slushy. except for that one boney section.  And plenty open to do turns.  I can excuse some of the lower stuff since sometimes you get stuck in tight spaces and can't initiate turns when you want. 





bdfreetuna said:


> Well it looks more like spring slush to me. Just thinking a lot of people end up on their butt on that run and perhaps overestimating the damage done to a Jay Peak spring snowpack at the summit.
> 
> Let's be real 9 out of 10 people attempting the Saddle will be side slipping and survival skiing (or wipe out / yardsale), if you can even call that skiing. It's too steep for most typical "expert" skiers to link turns on. Lots of lines off the Face for those who want 100% virgin snow.
> 
> So I'm not really hating on the snowboard kids... its not like a glade just opened with minimal snow pack and they left it with exposed rocks and dirt. Couldn't find a better video though



Sent from my SM-G973U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tonyr (Oct 25, 2019)

urungus said:


> I love this guys videos and his whoops.  Seems like he has posted videos of the hardest runs at just about every major northeastern resort, which I have found invaluable for pre-scouting unfamiliar runs just to make sure I won’t be getting in over my head.


Yes I've enjoyed watching a bunch of his videos too, he is a very good skier. Here's his run on Exterminator Woods to give you some perspective on how insanely good the other guys is. His attempt took more than 5 minutes longer than the other guy.

https://youtu.be/HPZsLC8nvmg


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 26, 2019)

urungus said:


> I have found invaluable for pre-scouting unfamiliar runs just to make sure I won’t be getting in over my head.



It certainly is nice to have some idea what you're getting yourself into. I usually ski alone and have a habit of ducking into unknown woods, but I do not enjoy getting in truly over my head. This guy gets in slightly over his head all the time and seems to enjoy it. Hope MyBadVideos continues to expand his "body of work" :beer:


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## WWF-VT (Oct 26, 2019)

ny dirtbag said:


> that was tough to watch, especially the first 2 min.  Should be shot on site and put out of misery.  To do that to a fresh powder line is unthinkable.  He seems to not know how to ride a snowboard.



fify


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## kingslug (Oct 28, 2019)

I guess I just don't like going 5 mph through dense woods..Kind of the opposite of what I do. Rather fly down a steep bowl. To each his own.


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## Tin (Oct 28, 2019)

kingslug said:


> I guess I just don't like going 5 mph through dense woods..Kind of the opposite of what I do. Rather fly down a steep bowl. To each his own.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Oct 30, 2019)

Tin said:


>



Sounds like you should wear that shirt... 
and look in a mirror.


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## Cornhead (Oct 31, 2019)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Sounds like you should wear that shirt...
> and look in a mirror.[emoji1787]


Like this?

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Oct 31, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> Like this?View attachment 25495
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Ha! Touche. Ok ^^that^^ is the shirt he should wear[emoji38]


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 1, 2019)

looked steeper had he gone to the right (I've never skied this)


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## kingslug (Nov 1, 2019)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Ha! Touche. Ok ^^that^^ is the shirt he should wear[emoji38]



Ha..its no problem ..my people were persecuted for 5000 years..another won't matter..LOL
And when I'm trying to follow the locals in the Stowe woods..yes it does suck to ski like me..


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 1, 2019)

kingslug said:


> my people were persecuted for 5000 years



Let me guess, you come from a race of 3 foot tall humanoids periodically referred to through the epochs by names such as "gnome", "midget", "George Stephanopoulos" and "Munchkin (Lollipop Guild)"?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 2, 2019)

kingslug said:


> my people were persecuted for 5000 years.



I'm a Mets fan too.


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## abc (Nov 2, 2019)

kingslug said:


> I guess I just don't like going 5 mph through dense woods..Kind of the opposite of what I do. Rather fly down a steep bowl. To each his own.


A bowl at Stowe? A bowl of rice?


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## kingslug (Nov 2, 2019)

Oy....
All i got for or this one...


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## kingslug (Nov 2, 2019)

Oy....
All i got for or this one...


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 4, 2019)

This kid did a great job on the video IMO. 5 of the different chutes between Paradise(Sugarbush) and Church. I always end up on Chute #3 when I'm trying to get to #4... I shall be better prepared next time!


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## kingslug (Nov 4, 2019)

Some wild stuff in there...


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 4, 2019)

i never really know what is what beyond paradise. i know where to access the church from the hike to castlerock, but once i get into the woods past paradise i feel like ive never skied the same line/chute twice. would love a gps map with some lines drawn in...


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## Hawk (Nov 4, 2019)

At least he didn't go down bear.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 4, 2019)

I'm watching the video again and again. This is certainly highest threshold eastern terrain, and the accessibility is unrivaled. These chutes + castlerock are a real draw for me every spring. I like skiing this kind of stuff in corn snow and save my Sugarbush days for late season.

Simply beautiful terrain and a couple of these chutes are very difficult and technical. Somebody earlier mentioned not liking 5 MPH techy skiing. Sugarbush Paradise chutes are just before limit of where difficult starts to become un-fun. Everyone has a different bar... for me I'd say Pico's "Busted" crosses that line. But Paradise chutes are right up there with the most heavenly terrain I've ever skied, East West or anything.


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## crank (Nov 4, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm watching the video again and again. This is certainly highest threshold eastern terrain, and the accessibility is unrivaled. These chutes + castlerock are a real draw for me every spring. I like skiing this kind of stuff in corn snow and save my Sugarbush days for late season.
> 
> Simply beautiful terrain and a couple of these chutes are very difficult and technical. Somebody earlier mentioned not liking 5 MPH techy skiing. Sugarbush Paradise chutes are just before limit of where difficult starts to become un-fun. Everyone has a different bar... for me I'd say Pico's "Busted" crosses that line. But Paradise chutes are right up there with the most heavenly terrain I've ever skied, East West or anything.



Looks like it would be nice without  all the ice.

I have the Ikon and plan to use all my Sugarbush days.  I will look for these lines off of Paradise.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2019)

I don't know, I only ski backcountry these days. Lots of hacking my way through thick brush. :razz:

Honestly though, many on map glades have been that way for the better part of a decade (or two) now. They have been manicured to perfection as there are barely any stray branches or saplings to get in the way. The challenge of skiing a lot of these glades isn't what it used to be.

And these types of questions, while spurring discussion are kind of silly since snow conditions play a HUGE part in how hard each glade skis.


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## PeepDude1 (Feb 12, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not on map, but I'd put Ossipee chute at Wildcat up there with anything I've skied in the East.  Steep as hell, very tight in spots, 8-10 footer with a sketchy landing.  You can take your skis off and hike around it, but there's no way to ski around it.  I've probably skied it ten times and only had the balls for the drop twice when the base was deep and plenty of fresh on top.  Even without the drop, I haven't skied it in a couple of seasons. I haven't been in good enough shape the past couple of seasons to trust my skills in there.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Can't find any information on ossipee chute where about is it, want to ski it tommorow


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## ne_skier (Feb 15, 2021)

bdfreetuna said:


> Magic: Wardrobe has a couple steep technical sections, also whatever they call the woods to the skiers right of Red Line up top are pretty tight and steep with a nice optional rock drop. I'm sure at least a couple other woods zones there would qualify too.


Wardrobe is tough but manageable if you know where to go. Aside from the obvious ones (Enchanted Forest, Pixie Dust, White Kitten) I'd say that Disappearing act and Hallows are the easiest woods runs, the former isn't steep at all and the latter has a wider part similar to Twilight/Goniff towards the center. I have yet to ski Voodoo (Glade you described), and other than that, I'd have to say Warlock and White Tiger tie for the steepest there. Short, but they both have legitimately steep bits about halfway down similar to Green Line which they both border.


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## RiverRunner (Mar 6, 2021)

crank said:


> Looks like it would be nice without  all the ice.
> 
> I have the Ikon and plan to use all my Sugarbush days.  I will look for these lines off





bdfreetuna said:


> This kid did a great job on the video IMO. 5 of the different chutes between Paradise(Sugarbush) and Church. I always end up on Chute #3 when I'm trying to get to #4... I shall be better prepared next time!


Some questionable line choices and turn decisions in there.. seemed to head for the trees a few times.
Looks pretty enjoyable with the right turn choices.


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## Harvey (Mar 7, 2021)

crank said:


> Looks like it would be nice without all the ice.




It wouldn't be Paradice without it.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 7, 2021)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't know, I only ski backcountry these days. Lots of hacking my way through thick brush. :razz:
> 
> Honestly though, many on map glades have been that way for the better part of a decade (or two) now. They have been manicured to perfection as there are barely any stray branches or saplings to get in the way. The challenge of skiing a lot of these glades isn't what it used to be.
> 
> And these types of questions, while spurring discussion are kind of silly since snow conditions play a HUGE part in how hard each glade skis.


Stray branches and saplings doesn’t sound very cool to me, that just kind of sucks. Go faster if you want a challenge. Getting slapped in the face into close out lines is lame.


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