# Kona vs. Specialized???



## drjeff (Jul 6, 2009)

Okay, so I'm going to take the plunge and get a hardtail to cruise around the trails in my town forest and ride with the kids along the local rails to trails path.  Went to my LBS and the two main brands they sell that the owner was talking up to me were Kona and Specialized.  I was wondering if any of the mtb "pros" here have any reservations about 1 or the other???  Right now I'm planning on pulling the trigger tommorrow on a Kona Fire Mountain as I liked the fact that one of the techs that worked there (the only primary MTB'er there - the other 2 are roadies), who was of similar size to me rides a Kona, because as he put it, they've got a beefier frame than the Specialized.  Thanks in advance for the advice


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## bvibert (Jul 6, 2009)

The beef of the frames will be more than adequate on both bikes.  I'm guessing that the Hardrock is the Specialized that you were looking at?  I'm not all that familiar with the Kona, but both bikes look to be pretty similar entry level hardtails, I don't think you could go wrong with either.  In the end pick the bike that fits you the best.  I assume they're letting you at least take them for a ride around the block??


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## drjeff (Jul 7, 2009)

bvibert said:


> The beef of the frames will be more than adequate on both bikes.  I'm guessing that the Hardrock is the Specialized that you were looking at?  I'm not all that familiar with the Kona, but both bikes look to be pretty similar entry level hardtails, I don't think you could go wrong with either.  In the end pick the bike that fits you the best.  I assume they're letting you at least take them for a ride around the block??



Thanks B

Yup. the Specialized he showed me was the hardrock, and yup, I'll be getting my butt into the saddle for a spin on both, the tech even joked that I could huck the roughly 6 foot drop from their front door off the bulkhead the shop is on down to the parking lot if I wanted to   My wife quickly reminded me that I'me wwaayy closer to 40 than 30 when she heard that  :lol:


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## hammer (Jul 7, 2009)

Purchased a Hardrock Sport for my son last year, and my wife and I each have Hardrock Sport bikes we bought in 1993.  They mostly get used on the occasional rail trail ride but we have no complaints.


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## bvibert (Jul 7, 2009)

My wife has a Hardrock from a few years ago.  The fork is pretty crappy, especially if you're on the heavier side, but aside from that we have no complaints.  It appears that the Hardrock now comes with a fork that has the ability to swap out springs to suit rider weight though, as does the Kona.  Both forks are probably pretty comparable.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't know much about either, but I notice a lot more Specialized bikes out there.

Either way, you'll enjoy it and feel like a kid again.  Don't forget to get a brain bucket.


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## Gremf (Jul 7, 2009)

What Kona are you looking at?  My preference is Kona over _Special-Ed_ any day.

My next bike will most likely be a Kona, the Smoke 2-9, to replace my family duty bike.


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## mondeo (Jul 7, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I don't know much about either, but I notice a lot more Specialized bikes out there.
> 
> Either way, you'll enjoy it and feel like a kid again. Don't forget to get a brain bucket.


Going by what I see on the road, Specialized and Trek are probably the two biggest brands. But that doesn't really mean they're the best, they just have the most name recognition and get sales because of it; especially Specialized with the role they've played in the US bike industry. Probably a lot of it is brand loyalty.


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## drjeff (Jul 7, 2009)

Gremf said:


> What Kona are you looking at?  My preference is Kona over _Special-Ed_ any day.
> 
> My next bike will most likely be a Kona, the Smoke 2-9, to replace my family duty bike.



The Kona I'm looking at is their basic starter hardtail, the Fire Mountain







Based on the t-storm that just rolled across my area, I'm guessing that I'll get to see how both the Kona and the Specialized do in the wet when I go for a test ride on both a little later on today


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## drjeff (Jul 7, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I don't know much about either, but I notice a lot more Specialized bikes out there.
> 
> Either way, you'll enjoy it and feel like a kid again.  Don't forget to get a brain bucket.



Brain Bucket - check
Gloves - check
Padded Mtn Bike Shorts - check

Even contemplating making myself a mouthguard as I've spent a bunch of hours recently in the office rebuilding the front teeth of 2 of my patient's who've gone over the handlebars and decided that breaking their fall with the use of their front teeth would be a good thing


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## Greg (Jul 7, 2009)

Let us know when you're up for a ride!


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## marcski (Jul 7, 2009)

I ride a Kona Dawg Dee-Lux.  It's about 5 years old already.  I love it!!

My buddy has a specialized...(a fs with that epic brain shock) and he likes that a lot as well. 

I think...IMHO (which might only be worth the paper this is written on ) that as those guys in the shop mentioned....I think specialized excels more at cross-country riding, whereas Kona should be better in the all-mtn, trail riding categories.  However, with a hardtail...probably won't make much of a difference...and as others have said...it should boil down to fit first and then compare the component mixes. 

Good luck. I got out for a nice road ride this morning before work.


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## jarrodski (Jul 7, 2009)

my kona has been abused roughly 3 times a week from april to october for the past 5 years and the only thing i don't like about it are the brakes (which i'm changing) and the weight (not that big of a deal) 

i've dropped it, i've ghosted it off jumps by accident, i've cartwheeled it down ski trails, i've smashed into trees.... its taken a beating..

i've done little to no maintance on it, and would buy another when the time comes.


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## Talisman (Jul 7, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Even contemplating making myself a mouthguard as I've spent a bunch of hours recently in the office rebuilding the front teeth of 2 of my patient's who've gone over the handlebars and decided that breaking their fall with the use of their front teeth would be a good thing



Having played hockey with a mouth guard in the good old days when only goalies wore full face helmets or masks and spat out several bloody teeth, mouth guards don't work very well to protect teeth or your lips from being shredded by the hockey stick or the sharp stumps of your shattered teeth.  If your concerns for your teeth will be a worywhile riding, consider a full face helmet.

On the Kona versus Specialized, I have a high mileage (~3,300 miles) Epic (FS with the brain) and other than wearing out chains and sprockets and a rear wheel it has been good mechanically.  Kona makes good bikes and so does Specialized.  I do know that Specialized is looked down on by some as too 'mainstream' or 'corporate'.

Will you be riding at Mt Sneaux?


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## JD (Jul 8, 2009)

I think for entry level Aluminium HTs, the frames durability are basically the same.  The biggest diference in ride quality will be fork preformance, and quality of the drive train components.  Campare those two carefully, ask the shop guy to explain the differences in the shocks, or write down the names and reasearch yourself.  Other differences will be stand over height.  Most folks (myself included) like more clearence over the top tube of the frame, so more slope as the top tube goes from the Head tube (handlebars) to the seat tube will make it easier handle.  Also, chainstay length from the bottom bracket (where the crank arms attach) to the rear axel has a dramatic affect on the characteristics of your bike on the trail.  In general, shorter chainstays are prefered for New England MTBing due to the lower speed technicality of out trails, the draw back is your front wheel will tend to wander on steep, low gear climbing.  Also, Bottom Bracket Height off the ground.  Bring a small tape measure, measure from the ground to the center of the bolt holding the crank arms on.  Less then 13 inches makes your bike "ride small" and increases your sense of control when cornering out of the saddle, the draw back is smacking pedals on rocks and other trail obsticals.  A beginner will like the extra clearance, but as you evolve, you may prefer a slight lower BB height.  Head angle.  This is how chopped out you front forks are.  Steeper Head angle is better for low speed twitchy singletrack riding, more slacked out HA is more stable railing turns at speed and lessens the chances for a OTB accident.  Other nice things to have.  Quick release seat post collar.  Allows you raise the seat for road cruising or long climbs, and lower it for trail riding and technical descents w/o a tool.  Lock on grips.  They rule.  Other difference may be grip shift vs. thumb shifters.  I never liked Grip shift, always throwing shifts inadvertantly.  Enjoy your new bike!


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## Marc (Jul 8, 2009)

Did you go to Silver Bike Shop or somewhere else?


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## drjeff (Jul 9, 2009)

Marc said:


> Did you go to Silver Bike Shop or somewhere else?



Few miles further South, Danielson Adventure Sports


The Mastercard was put down for the Kona   Should be in for me to pick up when I get back from Florida in a few days


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## drjeff (Jul 9, 2009)

JD said:


> I think for entry level Aluminium HTs, the frames durability are basically the same.  The biggest diference in ride quality will be fork preformance, and quality of the drive train components.  Campare those two carefully, ask the shop guy to explain the differences in the shocks, or write down the names and reasearch yourself.  Other differences will be stand over height.  Most folks (myself included) like more clearence over the top tube of the frame, so more slope as the top tube goes from the Head tube (handlebars) to the seat tube will make it easier handle.  Also, chainstay length from the bottom bracket (where the crank arms attach) to the rear axel has a dramatic affect on the characteristics of your bike on the trail.  In general, shorter chainstays are prefered for New England MTBing due to the lower speed technicality of out trails, the draw back is your front wheel will tend to wander on steep, low gear climbing.  Also, Bottom Bracket Height off the ground.  Bring a small tape measure, measure from the ground to the center of the bolt holding the crank arms on.  Less then 13 inches makes your bike "ride small" and increases your sense of control when cornering out of the saddle, the draw back is smacking pedals on rocks and other trail obsticals.  A beginner will like the extra clearance, but as you evolve, you may prefer a slight lower BB height.  Head angle.  This is how chopped out you front forks are.  Steeper Head angle is better for low speed twitchy singletrack riding, more slacked out HA is more stable railing turns at speed and lessens the chances for a OTB accident.  Other nice things to have.  Quick release seat post collar.  Allows you raise the seat for road cruising or long climbs, and lower it for trail riding and technical descents w/o a tool.  Lock on grips.  They rule.  Other difference may be grip shift vs. thumb shifters.  I never liked Grip shift, always throwing shifts inadvertantly.  Enjoy your new bike!



Thanks for the detailed info JD   I'm pretty quickly getting the idea that I'm going to be doing some tinkering with parts of the bike from a very early point of me being in the saddle on it


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## drjeff (Jul 9, 2009)

Talisman said:


> Having played hockey with a mouth guard in the good old days when only goalies wore full face helmets or masks and spat out several bloody teeth, mouth guards don't work very well to protect teeth or your lips from being shredded by the hockey stick or the sharp stumps of your shattered teeth.  If your concerns for your teeth will be a worywhile riding, consider a full face helmet.



Spending all my hours at work focusing on OTHERS teeth, regularly has me obsessing on mine   Plus, with the literallt thousands of times I've recommended mouth guards for almost any sport, I'd be a bit of a hypocrit if I atleast didn't think about one for me    



Talisman said:


> On the Kona versus Specialized, I have a high mileage (~3,300 miles) Epic (FS with the brain) and other than wearing out chains and sprockets and a rear wheel it has been good mechanically.  Kona makes good bikes and so does Specialized.  I do know that Specialized is looked down on by some as too 'mainstream' or 'corporate'.
> 
> Will you be riding at Mt Sneaux?



The bike will be hanging from the rack on my next trip to Mount Snow in a few weeks - I've rented a FS a few times and played around on the lift served stuff before.  What I'm looking forward to trying out a bit is the trails in the crosstown area off Handle Rd.


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## jarrodski (Jul 9, 2009)

mouth gaurd comment...

how do you expect to breath wearing one of those?   escpecially while getting in shape at the early stages of riding.   

i find a full face a bit cramped and stuffy, let alone something actually in my mouth.  plus, trail chatter will be pretty funny and mummbly no?


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## Marc (Jul 9, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Few miles further South, Danielson Adventure Sports
> 
> 
> The Mastercard was put down for the Kona   Should be in for me to pick up when I get back from Florida in a few days



Good, they're good people down there.  Silver's selection is limited, and I haven't been a huge fan of the owners since it was last sold.  At one point there was some connection between Silver and Sotar's up in Southbridge but I think both were either sold, or somehow broke off dealings at some point.  Sotar's is still pretty good but Silver... meh.  They're ok if you know what you want.


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## mondeo (Jul 9, 2009)

ishovelsnow said:


> mouth gaurd comment...
> 
> how do you expect to breath wearing one of those? escpecially while getting in shape at the early stages of riding.
> 
> i find a full face a bit cramped and stuffy, let alone something actually in my mouth. plus, trail chatter will be pretty funny and mummbly no?


Mouthguards really don't interfere with breathing. [grassi]Never had a problem playing lacrosse with one.[/grassi] Talking is something you have to get used to.

My understanding, though, is their main purpose is is to reduce teeth damage and concussion risk for upward impacts to the lower jaw; basically absorbing the impact of the lower jaw coming into contact with the upper. They really aren't strong enough to absorb blows to the teeth from the front.


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## drjeff (Jul 10, 2009)

ishovelsnow said:


> mouth gaurd comment...
> 
> how do you expect to breath wearing one of those?   escpecially while getting in shape at the early stages of riding.
> 
> i find a full face a bit cramped and stuffy, let alone something actually in my mouth.  plus, trail chatter will be pretty funny and mummbly no?



The mouth guard I'm thinking of is probably WWAAYY different than the 1 you might be thinking of.  Much smaller/streamlined than you're typical football/lacrosse/basketball moutguard.  Thin, rigid exterior shell lined with about 1/8" of a rubbery gasket like material for retention/shock absorbing purposes.  Let's just say that you CAN'T buy one of these types "off the shelf" and I'd be taking an impression of my teeth (think tray full of "goop" like when many of us had braces) and then have one of the labs that I use for dentures for my patients fabricate the mouthguard.

I actually have a demo one in my office that the lab sent me and me, at 225lbs can stand on it and NOT break it!  But true, if I'm going over the bars and choose to use my teeth (mouthguard and all) to break my fall, I'm likely shearing off a few of them, and very well breaking my jaw too


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## Marc (Jul 10, 2009)

Do you know what the shell is made from?  Polycarbonate?  ABS plastic seems to flexible.  Acrylic maybe since PC is now aparently dangerous to be in contact with your mouth.


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## bvibert (Jul 10, 2009)

Marc said:


> Do you know what the shell is made from?  Polycarbonate?  ABS plastic seems to flexible.  Acrylic maybe since PC is now aparently dangerous to be in contact with your mouth.



Transparent aluminum I believe.


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## mondeo (Jul 10, 2009)

Marc said:


> since PC is now aparently dangerous to be in contact with your mouth.


You mean maybe sorta possibly in large doses if you intentionaly leach out a chemical that may be present?


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## mondeo (Jul 10, 2009)

mondeo said:


> You mean maybe sorta possibly in large doses if you intentionaly leach out a chemical that may be present?


Plus I'd expect it to be rigid but not hard. If it were something like polycarbonate you'd be sacrifycing bottom teeth for top teeth.

Or is it upper and lower jaw?


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## Marc (Jul 10, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Plus I'd expect it to be rigid but not hard. If it were something like polycarbonate you'd be sacrifycing bottom teeth for top teeth.
> 
> Or is it upper and lower jaw?



With a mouthguard with so little material... I think for enough rigidity to hold up Dr. Jeff, a very hard material will be the only way.


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## mondeo (Jul 10, 2009)

Marc said:


> With a mouthguard with so little material... I think for enough rigidity to hold up Dr. Jeff, a very hard material will be the only way.


Might be both upper and lower jaws, if you're looking to actually protect your teeth from being knocked out you'd care about the lower jaw as well. That would make the hardness not a concern.

Other option would be to put a thin film of soft material (<1/16th inch) over the hard material to protect the pointy parts of the lower teeth. Or maybe the stiff material is only on the vertical, the part between the teeth is soft.

DrJeff, we nerdy engineers need to know the exact design specs!


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## drjeff (Jul 11, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Might be both upper and lower jaws, if you're looking to actually protect your teeth from being knocked out you'd care about the lower jaw as well. That would make the hardness not a concern.
> 
> Other option would be to put a thin film of soft material (<1/16th inch) over the hard material to protect the pointy parts of the lower teeth. Or maybe the stiff material is only on the vertical, the part between the teeth is soft.
> 
> DrJeff, we nerdy engineers need to know the exact design specs!



Nerdy tech stuff on the way 

The hard outer shell is a pressure molded/injected, heat cured nylon based thermoplastic acetal resin.  Think vaccuum molded fiberglass type stuff here.

Then, the inner "gasket like" soft layer is Ethylene-Vinyl Acetate, which is presure molded to the hard outer shell.

Total thickness of both layers is 3 to 4mm (can be made thicker if desired).

Design wise we're generally just talking protection of the upper teeth, since for most folks, their upper teeth are located infront of their lower teeth and that configuration combined with the fact that most folks chins are located infront of their lower teeth also adds kind of a natural lower tooth protection factor.

Also from a design standpoint, what we want to do with those "pointy" parts of the lower teeth (what we call cusp tips) with respect to the upper guard is have the shape of the upper guard be such that when you bite on it, ALL of the high points of the lower cusps are in contact with the guard at the same time, so, these guards if you set them on a table AREN'T flat since most everyone's jaws will curve in an arc from both back to front and also from left to right (Google Curve of Spee and Curve of Wilson if the "engin-nerd" in 'ya wants a diagram  )

Like I said, you can't buy this type of guard off the shelf


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## Marc (Jul 12, 2009)

Yeah, drjeff, you should wear a mouth guard as a dentist if for no other reason than why I, as a fire protection engineer, should have a residential sprinkler system and an over abundance of fully functioning smoke detectors in my house.


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## bvibert (Jul 13, 2009)

Marc said:


> I, as a fire protection engineer, should have a residential sprinkler system and an over abundance of fully functioning smoke detectors in my house.



So do you?  Because I could see that, probably a redundant system too, just in case...


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## Marc (Jul 13, 2009)

I do have the smoke detectors, no sprinkler system yet.  That will go in as the restoration/renovation progresses.


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## bvibert (Jul 13, 2009)

Marc said:


> I do have the smoke detectors, no sprinkler system yet.  That will go in as the restoration/renovation progresses.



I knew you wouldn't let me down.  About how much does a residential sprinkler system cost anyway?


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## Marc (Jul 13, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I knew you wouldn't let me down.  About how much does a residential sprinkler system cost anyway?



Depends greatly on your water supply and if you need a booster pump and or water tank.  Also, retrofits tend to be pricey because of the logistics and varies house to house.  In new construction on city water with good pressure and volume, quite cheap.  They amount to basically a riser with a couple pressure gages, a flow check, shut off and drain valves, and the rest is done typically with CPVC.  Easy plumbing.


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## eatskisleep (Jul 18, 2009)

Marc, where did you go to school? I am thinking of getting my Masters in FPE and a Bachelors in CE.


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## Paul (Jul 24, 2009)

I have a Residential Sprinkler System, I drink lots of beer.


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## HD333 (Jul 30, 2009)

drjeff said:


> The Kona I'm looking at is their basic starter hardtail, the Fire Mountain
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DRJeff-

What  price range are the 2 bikes you looked at in?

We sound similair in what we want to do, I should have read your thead before I started mine asking for advise.

Do you like the Kona?


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## drjeff (Jul 30, 2009)

HD333 said:


> DRJeff-
> 
> What  price range are the 2 bikes you looked at in?
> 
> ...



Both were in the $500-$600 range by the time all the tax was tacked on.  

LOVE my Kona AND the service/advice that my Local Bike Shop has given me!


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## Marc (Jul 30, 2009)

eatskisleep said:


> Marc, where did you go to school? I am thinking of getting my Masters in FPE and a Bachelors in CE.



Worcester Polytech.  If you want an MSFPE, your choices are basically WPI and University of Maryland.  If you want to go into the research end of things, UC Berkeley has a good program in their ME department.  Feel free to PM me if you want more info.


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