# Ski area bankruptcies



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2020)

I’m going to just say it.

Our economy is fucked.  

Look for lots of ski area bankruptcies in the coming months.  Some won’t even make it through the summer.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2020)

I'm curious, which ski areas operated this year that will not operate next?


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## Rowsdower (Mar 19, 2020)

What? Why? Because they lost a week or two at the end of the season where the majority of their customers would have been season pass holders anyway? 

The only issue I see is if next season people are strapped for cash and they suffer a loss of business then. But I don't see why anyone will not be open for next season.


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## legalskier (Mar 19, 2020)

Many areas had very early openings- Hunter and Blue opened well before Thanksgiving (Blue 4 to 5 weeks earlier than usual)- then they lost two or three weeks on the back end. So they got about the same length ski season as usual but it just shifted earlier. Plus, the major holiday periods they rely on weren't busts. I'd be surprised to see any well managed area go under due to the early closings. 

https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc...0191112-lvjulpa3gzdpxeb64hdktx4cgu-story.html


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2020)

Season pass sales are going to crater.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 19, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Season pass sales are going to crater.



That's true but isn't it the big consortiums that rely more on season pass sales?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Look for *lots of ski area bankruptcies* in the coming months.  Some won’t even make it through the summer.



I'll take the UNDER.

If this had to happen, it happened at a relatively decent time versus the cyclical nature of ski industry revenue. If this causes someone to go Chapter 11 in July, they probably would have gone belly-up in a year or two anyway.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2020)

Grandpa escaped the nazis in Krakow and skiied until he was 98, died two years later. Dad broke his leg in hillmans and hiked out, still limps today 50 years later. Talked to dad yesterday, he was just home from market basket and wanted to know if I was bringing beers this weekend. We will all ski next year and are due a good year.


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## NYDB (Mar 20, 2020)

Use your TrumpBucks (tm)  to support your local hill.   If you're too 'rich' to receive any TrumpBucks (tm), you should have some shekels lying around.  Use those to support your local hill.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2020)

I’m shocked that people are so optimistic.  Within a week or so nearly every state will be under a stay-home mandate.  The economic fallout of this is going to be unlike anything we have ever seen.  The service sector is going to experience massive layoffs, which will have a domino effect.


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## NYDB (Mar 20, 2020)

I guess it depends on how long you think shit will be fucked up.  If we are rolling as normal come summer, I don't see it being as bad as you think.  I think most people who ski have disposable income.  If they have disposable income and are smart, they have an emergency savings fund.  

If we are still on lockdown in August then you'll probably be right.


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## MikeDeJ (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I’m shocked that people are so optimistic.  Within a week or so nearly every state will be under a stay-home mandate.  The economic fallout of this is going to be unlike anything we have ever seen.  The service sector is going to experience massive layoffs, which will have a domino effect.



I agree with you to a point.  We are not there yet.  If we do put everyone in a lock down for an extended period you are right.  The depression in 1929 had 25% unemployment we will be there if a lockdown happens.  it will bankrupt the states unemployment, then the state etc...   I agree ( in my opinion ) with everything CT  has done so far, but a lockdown's collateral damage maybe greater then the Covid-19 itself.  The Covid-19 is serious but hysteria has taken over.  We have taken some drastic steps let it be where we are.  The public is in fear of the virus and what the government is going to do next.  Im not a dark person, not a conspiracy guy. but we dont at this point have to make a move every day.

Lets pray we dont get there and we are back on the boards in Oct!!

MikeD


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Next winter will be key.  If a lot of people arent skiing becaus of the economy  and it happens to be a warmer winter, that could mean a lot of issues.  Resorts can get through this situation right now as long as it's only short term


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## ScottySkis (Mar 20, 2020)

It going to effect every person and business
I not guessing on ski area close
I already have 3 friends who lost their jobs yesterday


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## trackbiker (Mar 20, 2020)

A lot of the smaller and eastern ski areas were only too glad to close. With mostly season pass holders skiing this time of year they were probably in a negative cash flow situation and actually saved money by closing early.


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## TyWebb (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Next winter will be key.  If a lot of people arent skiing becaus of the economy  and it happens to be a warmer winter, that could mean a lot of issues.  Resorts can get through this situation right now as long as it's only short term



Furthermore .. if this virus comes back in fall/winter many will go bankrupt.  A good financial gauge will be super pass sales spring/summer 19 vs spring/summer 20.  Obviously expecting this year to be lower but if it is drastically lower that will be a good indicator.


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## skiur (Mar 20, 2020)

trackbiker said:


> A lot of the smaller and eastern ski areas were only too glad to close. With mostly season pass holders skiing this time of year they were probably in a negative cash flow situation and actually saved money by closing early.



This......many smaller places will do better this year since they had to close early.  If by the end of summer this is still going on then season passes may not be bought and then if it goes into fall they lose more.....then I could see places going bankrupt.  If this is all cleared up by the end of spring, then its probably a positive money wise for small places that had to close a few weeks early.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I’m shocked that people are so optimistic.  Within a week or so nearly every state will be under a stay-home mandate.  The economic fallout of this is going to be unlike anything we have ever seen.  The service sector is going to experience massive layoffs, which will have a domino effect.


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## slatham (Mar 20, 2020)

Season pass sales will be significantly impacted until we are on our way out of this thing. And obviously summer business, but how dependent are areas on this, especially the small independents that are most vulnerable (Bromley would get hurt, but not Magic)

The length and severity are key, especially as it pertains to next December - that is a long way off.

IF a relatively short lock down - say 3 months - the economy should rebound very quickly with significant pent up demand and fiscal and monetary stimulus. While many people will be digging themselves out of a financial hole for sometime, this will likely not pertain to the majority of the skiing demographic - or at least not enough to stop them from skiing.

The serious and real risk is a much longer lock down. 

In fact one could make the argument, depending upon how this plays out, that seasonal, hourly US workers will be more readily available and perhaps cheaper next winter.

But looking past tomorrow is pure, unadultered speculation during the most unprecedented situation of our lifetimes.


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## tumbler (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I’m shocked that people are so optimistic.  Within a week or so nearly every state will be under a stay-home mandate.  The economic fallout of this is going to be unlike anything we have ever seen.  The service sector is going to experience massive layoffs, which will have a domino effect.



When this is over there will be pent up demand for consumers to spend by shopping and eating out.  Travel will come back, especially within driving distance which puts VT, NH and ME in good position.  I also think that people will rally around the service industry unemployed to help them through this.  Yes, I am on optimist but I also think that America (including myself) are finally realizing how serious this is and is probably a preview for the future.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 20, 2020)

If they can't wipe the virus from the face of the planet, it won't be over until all humans on the planet get exposed and survive or not, or they come out with a working vaccine. Isolation is just prolonging eventual probable exposure.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 20, 2020)

tumbler said:


> When this is over there will be pent up demand for consumers to spend by shopping and eating out.  Travel will come back, especially within driving distance which puts VT, NH and ME in good position.  I also think that people will rally around the service industry unemployed to help them through this.  Yes, I am on optimist but I also think that America (including myself) are finally realizing how serious this is and is probably a preview for the future.



Conversely, if people are out of work then they'll be curtailing spending for a while even after the virus passes.


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## Edd (Mar 20, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> If they can't wipe the virus from the face of the planet, it won't be over until all humans on the planet get exposed and survive or not, or they come out with a working vaccine. Isolation is just prolonging eventual probable exposure.



Yes, but not overloading the hospitals early is the intent. Already, some are weeks away from running out of supplies. In Indiana, the public is being asked to sew masks for medical personnel.


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## Edd (Mar 20, 2020)

Some ski areas rely on summer revenue for real. Those areas have entered a natural break between winter/summer ops early this year. 

Hopefully (fingers and toes crossed) the ski areas can eke out some semblance of summer biz. A one-two punch of low pass sales and dismal summer business will be tough even for a financially healthy outfit to weather. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 20, 2020)

Edd said:


> Yes, but not overloading the hospitals early is the intent. Already, some are weeks away from running out of supplies. In Indiana, the public is being asked to sew masks for medical personnel.



Yep, I get that, just a steady trickle of patients, that can be handled, vs a giant flood of them.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2020)

It's a horrible choice.  Destroy the economy or save lives.

13% of Italy's economy is tourism.  Practically overnight 13% of their economy has evaporated.  The economic consequences of this are going to be severe.  Hopefully the United States is in a better position to weather the storm.


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## MikeDeJ (Mar 20, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> Conversely, if people are out of work then they'll be curtailing spending for a while even after the virus passes.



I am one of those people out of work.  I had an Epic Local pass last year, planned on buying the same.  With less $$ available may step down to the Epic Northeast, dont see how I will have money to go out west.  Still early in this, but dont see me buying lunch/beer at mtn like I have in the past.  I will still ski, but extras are gone at this point.  Alot of the people I ski ( and see for a beer at lunch) with Mon-Tues are service people it will effect the ski areas, Im sure some improvement projects will be on hold for some time.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2020)

What I'll be interested in seeing is how severe  the decline in labor availability will be for the tourism and F&B industries when this is all done.  It was already tough for these places to find help.  How many workers who are going through economic hell right now decide to look for a more insulated means of employment such as healthcare? 

I thank my lucky stars I made the decision nine years ago to transition my career from F&B to healthcare.  I'd say 95% of my old friends in F&B businesses are now unemployed.  

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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Hopefully the United States is in a better position to weather the storm.




The way it is being handled in the USA, and especially in the South, you are going to be Italy very soon.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> What I'll be interested in seeing is how severe  the decline in labor availability will be for the tourism and F&B industries when this is all done.  It was already tough for these places to find help.  How many workers who are going through economic hell right now decide to look for a more insulated means of employment such as healthcare?
> 
> I thank my lucky stars I made the decision nine years ago to transition my career from F&B to healthcare.  I'd say 95% of my old friends in F&B businesses are now unemployed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



It may actually be easier to staff resorts in the short term.  The economy being good had a lot to do with it, with unemployment going through the roof people may be more apt to take a ski industry job for a winter

Of course they can always go the foreign route.  Would be nice to see something incentivizing mountains to hire american labor after all of this, but we'll see


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> What I'll be interested in seeing is how severe  the decline in labor availability will be for the tourism and F&B industries when this is all done.  It was already tough for these places to find help.  How many workers who are going through economic hell right now decide to look for a more insulated means of employment such as healthcare?
> 
> I thank my lucky stars I made the decision nine years ago to transition my career from F&B to healthcare.  I'd say 95% of my old friends in F&B businesses are now unemployed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



It may actually be easier to staff resorts in the short term.  The economy being good had a lot to do with labor shortages, with unemployment going through the roof people may be more apt to take a ski industry job for a winter

Of course they can always go the foreign route.  Would be nice to see something incentivizing mountains to hire american labor after all of this, but we'll see


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## ss20 (Mar 20, 2020)

I too would expect a big surge of employment at ski areas next season.  Broke people who don't have jobs get a paying position and a season pass.


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## EPB (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> It may actually be easier to staff resorts in the short term.  The economy being good had a lot to do with labor shortages, with unemployment going through the roof people may be more apt to take a ski industry job for a winter
> 
> Of course they can always go the foreign route.  Would be nice to see something incentivizing mountains to hire american labor after all of this, but we'll see


I agree in the short run. If places open up in a relatively high unemployment environment, it should be easier to find labor.

Long run is tougher to say, but my sense is a new crop of enough young people will eventually fill in. Seems to have been reliable throughout history save for ticket scanners (developing world labor at my home, Attitash, growing up). Many, but not all, of those jobs are being automated.

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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2020)

I don't recall a surge in ski area employment after 2008.  Maybe I could see a surge in retirement aged people who had their portfolios crushed by this and need some added income.  But younger workers I do not see it.  Most ski area jobs do not pay well and don't offer good benefits.  A season pass is about the least valuable perk it's ever been with how cheap they are now.  If I'm a younger worker I'm looking for full time, year round employment with benefits in a cost of living environment that would allow me to build up a solid financial cushion should shit hit the fan again.  Those types of positions are so hard to come by in resort areas.  It's why I left living in such locations in 2004 and never looked back.  The environment today even without this pandemic is even worse. 

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## njdiver85 (Mar 20, 2020)

There are some new studies that have come out in recent days that believe social distancing will need to be the norm for a very long time, until we have an effective vaccine that has been distributed to the world population.  Effective fully distributed vaccine is considered 18mths away at current estimates.  Not sure how this will impact the 2020/21 ski season, but my guess is we are certainly NOT back to normal by Thanksgiving.


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## EPB (Mar 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't recall a surge in ski area employment after 2008.  Maybe I could see a surge in retirement aged people who had their portfolios crushed by this and need some added income.  But younger workers I do not see it.  Most ski area jobs do not pay well and don't offer good benefits.  A season pass is about the least valuable perk it's ever been with how cheap they are now.  If I'm a younger worker I'm looking for full time, year round employment with benefits in a cost of living environment that would allow me to build up a solid financial cushion should shit hit the fan again.  Those types of positions are so hard to come by in resort areas.  It's why I left living in such locations in 2004 and never looked back.  The environment today even without this pandemic is even worse.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


You definitely made the right call. What I'm saying is that I see no reason why there won't continue to be a fairly steady influx of ~22 year olds to make the plunge. You're older and wiser now, but the thing with 22 year olds is they stay the same while we get wiser.

You shouldn't have seen a surge of employment in 2008. No need to increase staffing beyond 2007 levels when you know visits still be down. If anything, places probably cut heads. I suspect that behind the scenes, however, it was easier to maintain desired employment levels in 2008 than is was in 2005-2007.

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## MikeDeJ (Mar 20, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> There are some new studies that have come out in recent days that believe social distancing will need to be the norm for a very long time, until we have an effective vaccine that has been distributed to the world population.  Effective fully distributed vaccine is considered 18mths away at current estimates.  Not sure how this will impact the 2020/21 ski season, but my guess is we are certainly NOT back to normal by Thanksgiving.



I guess normal needs to be defined.  I agree this is a huge wake up call, but if we are like we currently are till Thanksgiving skiing will be the least of our issues.  But I can see not packing the restaurants, gondolas, more bathrooms etc... this will happen.

MikeD


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> There are some new studies that have come out in recent days that believe social distancing will need to be the norm for a very long time, until we have an effective vaccine that has been distributed to the world population.  Effective fully distributed vaccine is considered 18mths away at current estimates.  Not sure how this will impact the 2020/21 ski season, but my guess is we are certainly NOT back to normal by Thanksgiving.



The Normal timeline for vaccines has been greatly accelerated.  Theres already one in clinical trial we could see by.the end of the year.  Theres also promising signs existing fda approved drugs can be used to treat and potentially prevent the virus


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## skimagic (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> It may actually be easier to staff resorts in the short term.  The economy being good had a lot to do with labor shortages, with unemployment going through the roof people may be more apt to take a ski industry job for a winter
> 
> Of course they can always go the foreign route.  Would be nice to see something incentivizing mountains to hire american labor after all of this, but we'll see



Its possible they won't let the foreign workers back in if this situation persists.

Here's an article on life of foreign workers that was in Powder mag recently.
https://www.powder.com/stories/foreign-aid/


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2020)

Let's hope ski areas don't go bankrupt, but it will certainly be interesting to see what happens considering the economy taking such a hit.
Lot's of people are (wrongly) very upset about the season ending early and believe they should be entitled to money back or a discount next season. The reality is that the season wasn't cut short by that much, especially considering the weather we've had lately and appear to be headed towards.


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## TyWebb (Mar 20, 2020)

Banks are forecasting a 20-25% hit to our economy.  If we lose $4T+ in economic activity, even if/when we address the virus properly, there will be alot bankruptcies.  Not only ski areas, but in every industry and many individuals.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> Banks are forecasting a 20-25% hit to our economy.  If we lose $4T+ in economic activity, even if/when we address the virus properly, there will be alot bankruptcies.  Not only ski areas, but in every industry and many individuals.


Some of those companies have been spending Billions (yes, billions) on stock buy-backs and are wanting/needing to be bailed out, which is insane. I'm guessing not a lot of people feel too bad for the airline industries who have been sticking it to customers any way they can since forever.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2020)

California and New York are now under lockdown.  (New York isn't technically calling it a lockdown - but it is.)

The two biggest states as far as our economy is concerned have now ground to a halt.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> California and New York are now under lockdown.  (New York isn't technically calling it a lockdown - but it is.)
> 
> The two biggest states as far as our economy is concerned have now ground to a halt.



It's not really lock down, just no non essential business.  People arent being locked in their homes


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## EPB (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> It's not really lock down, just no non essential business.  People arent being locked in their homes


Economically speaking, which is the trust of this thread, it basically is a lockdown.

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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Economically speaking, which is the trust of this thread, it basically is a lockdown.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Grocery stores, shipping companies, and many others are still able to operate plus anybody that can work from home.  You can still leave your house for certain things.  Partial lockdown would be more accurate

I wont really consider it a lockdown until they start saying we can't leave our property for any reason, aside from medical emergencies, etc.


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## mister moose (Mar 20, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I'm guessing not a lot of people feel too bad for the airline industries who have been sticking it to customers any way they can since forever.


Oh, come on.  Every company seeks to maximize revenue, even the one you work for.  The second you don't seek to maximize revenue, you start to die a little, because the other snapping dogs at your heels are still doing it to survive.

As for airlines, you collectively did that to yourself:  Always choosing the low price option.  Boom, that's what airlines sell you at a lower price - less leg room, less bags, less food, less everything.  Even empty seats have disappeared in search of the almighty low fare on TriVaGo and Expedia.  PanAm fought it, offered better service.... and died.  If you think they were sticking it to you since forever, try no airlines at all.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Oh, come on.  Every company seeks to maximize revenue, even the one you work for.  The second you don't seek to maximize revenue, you start to die a little, because the other snapping dogs at your heels are still doing it to survive.
> 
> As for airlines, you collectively did that to yourself:  Always choosing the low price option.  Boom, that's what airlines sell you at a lower price - less leg room, less bags, less food, less everything.  Even empty seats have disappeared in search of the almighty low fare on TriVaGo and Expedia.  PanAm fought it, offered better service.... and died.  If you think they were sticking it to you since forever, try no airlines at all.


Did you feel bad and fight for the banks that got bailed out in 2008 after they were sticking it to customers?


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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> Did you feel bad and fight for the banks that got bailed out in 2008 after they were sticking it to customers?



Completely different situation.  But no I did not


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Completely different situation.  But no I did not


I agree.


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## mister moose (Mar 20, 2020)

I was angry at the politicians that required a lowering of credit standards so mortgages could be written to people that couldn't afford them.  I was angry the Fed allowed a 5 year ARM to low credit score mortgage holders that had to default when rates went up.  I had no sympathy for investment banks that packaged and resold those mortgages while knowing many would end up worthless.  I had complete sympathy for commercial and consumer banking that got caught up in the crisis, and were over penalized with Dodd Frank after it happened.  Like almost everything, "Banking" is not monolithic.  I didn't fight for airlines or banking, just shining a little economic daylight on a ski forum.


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## EPB (Mar 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Grocery stores, shipping companies, and many others are still able to operate plus anybody that can work from home.  You can still leave your house for certain things.  Partial lockdown would be more accurate


It's really not worth arguing over, but keeping just food, medical and other "essential" supply lines going is hardly business as usual. Not even for distribution companies - save for the few that focus exclusively on the "essentials".

-The auto industry has physically shut down.
-Non grocery retail is shut down
-Schools are shut down
-Leisure industry anyone?
-As an FYI, the corporate lending market, especially my higher yielding niche is essentially shut down. I'm working from home (not forced by the government, but very much locked down), but this is far from business as usual.

I don't know what you do, but I suspect your organization isn't generating much new business right now - because people are bunkered in their homes (yes, essentially locked down). GDP is going to get absolutely HAMMERED as long as this lasts. This is certainly serious, and we better hope a way out of this isn't too far off. I'm not panicked, but we have unequivocally locked the economy down to the extent we can. The measures we've taken are very serious and cannot go on indefinitely.

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## Edd (Mar 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> This is certainly serious, and we better hope a way out of this isn't too far off. I'm not panicked, but we have unequivocally locked the economy down to the extent we can. The measures we've taken are very serious and cannot go on indefinitely.



Yeah, this is what keeps occurring to me. It’s difficult to imagine lockdowns going past mid-April.  We’re just not designed for this. But my imagination is being challenged on a near daily basis.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2020)

New Hampshire just reported 16,000 unemployment insurance applications in the past three days.  That is the tip of the iceburg.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> New Hampshire just reported 16,000 unemployment insurance applications in the past three days.  That is the tip of the iceburg.



The federal govt was also trying to prevent the reporting of unemployment figures.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> The way it is being handled in the USA, and especially in the South, *you are going to be Italy very soon.*



I highly doubt it for numerous reasons, some empiracal & some circumstantial, but I guess we'll know soon enough.

I do, however, have every confidence the media will tell us "we're Italy" next week, whether it's true or not (hope not).



njdiver85 said:


> * Effective fully distributed vaccine is considered 18mths away at current estimates.*



The experts on TV are telling you that, because that's been the experience in the past, but this is going to happen MUCH faster due to the fact that every flippin' modern nation on earth is looking into it, it will definitely receive fast-track status, and they'll likely cut down on 'N's a bit for clinical trial recruitment purposes I'd guess.   

Lastly, and this isnt PC, but if you think the Chinese aren't going to cut every corner in the book & go to live human clinical trials in secret somewhere by using political or other prisoners or ethnic minorities, you dont know China.  I think China may have a vaccine first, just dont ask "how" they did it so quickly.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think China may have a vaccine first, just dont ask "how" they did it so quickly.



If they did create the virus, they should have also already had an antidote/vaccine. If movies taught us anything, you don't create Chimera without already having Bellerophon (unless you're really stupid or really careless).


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## Bumpsis (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> If they did create the virus, they should have also already had an antidote/vaccine. If movies taught us anything, you don't create Chimera without already having Bellerophon (unless you're really stupid or really careless).



cdskier - stop spreading conspiracy theories. Please, read the following instead: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/03/biography-new-coronavirus/608338/


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> cdskier - stop spreading conspiracy theories. Please, read the following instead: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/03/biography-new-coronavirus/608338/



I think you completely missed my point. I don't think they created it.


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## EPB (Mar 20, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> cdskier - stop spreading conspiracy theories. Please, read the following instead: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/03/biography-new-coronavirus/608338/


I assumed that was in jest. 

If the Chinese government had created the virus and vaccine, they would have used it to protect their people and themselves.

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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I think you completely missed my point. I disagree with BG and don't think they created it.



BG didn't say that they created it.  He said that they will take some, ahem, "shortcuts" in developing a vaccine.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I disagree with BG and don't think they created it.



What are you disagreeing with me about?


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## Bumpsis (Mar 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I think you completely missed my point. I disagree with BG and don't think they created it.



OK, got it. I think that BG was simply referring to a more or less known fact that the Chinese government has a reputation for less than humane/ethical way of treating their prisoners, like perhaps using them to test a fast tracked vaccine. Granted, the US prison system is no shining example of anything considered humane, but I'd hope that medical experimentation isn't part of what's going on here.
This stuff has always been a rich fodder for chilling SiFi - the Ludovico Technique from Clockwork Oragane comes to mind.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> What are you disagreeing with me about?



Sorry, my apologies. I misinterpreted your comment and read way too far into it then. Hard to keep track of who stands where on some of these issues.



Bumpsis said:


> OK, got it. I think that BG was simply referring to a more or less known fact that the Chinese government has a reputation for less than humane/ethical way of treating their prisoners, like perhaps using them to test a fast tracked vaccine. Granted, the US prison system is no shining example of anything considered humane, but I'd hope that medical experimentation isn't part of what's going on here.
> This stuff has always been a rich fodder for chilling SiFi - the Ludovico Technique from Clockwork Oragane comes to mind.



Yea, upon re-reading I see that as well.


----------



## Dickc (Mar 20, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> New Hampshire just reported 16,000 unemployment insurance applications in the past three days.  That is the tip of the iceburg.



Massachusetts had 17382 applications for unemployment in the month of February, Monday March 6th, they had 19884 applications on just that one day.  Think about that for a moment!


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## Zermatt (Mar 21, 2020)

I've been beating this drum for weeks and was generally laughed at.


----------



## prsboogie (Mar 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Sorry, my apologies. I misinterpreted your comment and read way too far into it then. Hard to keep track of who stands where on some of these issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, upon re-reading I see that as well.


No the USG saves that sort of thing for their enlisted people 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Bosco DaSkia (Mar 21, 2020)

billo said:


> I've been beating this drum for weeks and was generally laughed at.


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## legalskier (Mar 22, 2020)

Well here we go.

_"Vail Resorts Expects a Loss of $180 to $200 Million Due to COVID-19"_

Story: https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020...a-loss-of-180-to-200-million-due-to-covid-19/


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## Rowsdower (Mar 22, 2020)

legalskier said:


> Well here we go.
> 
> _"Vail Resorts Expects a Loss of $180 to $200 Million Due to COVID-19"_
> 
> Story: https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020...a-loss-of-180-to-200-million-due-to-covid-19/



Keep in mind Vail has got business coming in from elsewhere, its not just ski-related. A lot of their resorts have 4-season operations.


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## TyWebb (Mar 22, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> Keep in mind Vail has got business coming in from elsewhere, its not just ski-related. A lot of their resorts have 4-season operations.


We are committing economic suicide so it does not matter how many seasons these areas operate.  We're going to see tons of bankruptcies in all industries.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 22, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> We are committing economic suicide so it does not matter how many seasons these areas operate.  We're going to see tons of bankruptcies in all industries.



I'd rather count this crisis in dollars after, than in lives now.


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## Edd (Mar 22, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> We are committing economic suicide so it does not matter how many seasons these areas operate.



Well, it matters to a lot of us. It’s a ski forum.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> I'd rather count this crisis in dollars after, than in lives now.



I think if we just quarantined everyone over 60, we could have saved lives & saved the economy.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> I'd rather count this crisis in dollars after, than in lives now.



You'll be counting this crisis in lives for many years if we go into a long lasting recession or depression thanks to this over reaction


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## TyWebb (Mar 22, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> I'd rather count this crisis in dollars after, than in lives now.


Globally there will 10’s of millions dead from economic devastation. This is the worst mis-reaction hot take in history.

I worry about the virus hurting my parents, but that worry is NOTHING compared to the worry I have about a collapsing economy and how it will impact my children, family, (everyone’s) etc.  This shit isn’t going to get better. The curve isn’t going to flatten in a few weeks. I can’t imagine the government, state or feds, saying, “Fuck it, there’s nothing we can do. Go about your business.”  We all know that won’t happen as we can’t even get out of an un-winnable war we’ve been involved in for 18+ years.  They’re going to stubbornly ride this out and when the virus passes, we’re all going to wish the virus took us.


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## TyWebb (Mar 22, 2020)

Edd said:


> Well, it matters to a lot of us. It’s a ski forum.


You missed my point entirely


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## Edd (Mar 22, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> You missed my point entirely



No, I really didn’t.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think if we just quarantined everyone over 60, we could have saved lives & saved the economy.



My thought exactly.  Tell the vulnerable to hunker down, deliver them food and supplies, and let everyone get sick and then get better.


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## prsboogie (Mar 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> My thought exactly.  Tell the vulnerable to hunker down, deliver them food and supplies, and let everyone get sick and then get better.


All well and good but it's not just 60+ year olds who are dying. We just had a 52 year old die yesterday in Massachusetts so ageism doesn't necessarily work in this case. Yes they are more vulnerable but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. 

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## Not Sure (Mar 22, 2020)

Money can be replaced people can't . Frankly there's a lot of overreaction on both sides. This whole mess started because an all powerful government wanted to save face by silencing anyone who would bring attention to the virus outbreak , look where that got them . This should have been contained in the beginning . A good lesson for those who want a government answer to everything . 

In this situation on our part government and business must work together to get us out of this Fubar situation . Getting capital in the hands of small businesses capital and low income individuals money will go along way to return things the IRS has your address  . Until then chill and spend family time .


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

South Korea managed to contain their outbreak without shutting the whole country down and devolving into a state of lunacy and panic.  We could have taken a much different route instead of the one we were on which will cause irreversible damage for years to come.  Many businesses are just going to go out of business.  The idea of just shutting things down for months, snapping your fingers and making it all come back is a fantasy


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> My thought exactly.  Tell the vulnerable to hunker down, deliver them food and supplies, and let everyone get sick and then get better.


In theory I agree too, but I'm not 60 and quite frankly if I were, I'm not sure how I'd feel about being locked in my home purely because of age.  

Also....

If we establish bug out criteria for when we lock the old folks up, what happens if (heaven forbid) another Polio type pandemic happens when children are most at risk? Guess you need criteria for that. And if both those criteria (read: laws) are established, well there is sure to be a really "Oh Sit!" law where we all have to quarantine.  

This is a much more complex societal problem to plan for and fix than just saying, "Coronavirus? Bring it on! Sorry Grandpa, you have to take another staycation. Wink, wink."

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Rowsdower (Mar 22, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> South Korea managed to contain their outbreak without shutting the whole country down and devolving into a state of lunacy and panic.  We could have taken a much different route instead of the one we were on which will cause irreversible damage for years to come.  Many businesses are just going to go out of business.  The idea of just shutting things down for months, snapping your fingers and making it all come back is a fantasy



This isn't SK. 

They *did* shut most of the country down too, they just did it much more orderly than here.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> This isn't SK.
> 
> They *did* shut most of the country down too, they just did it much more orderly than here.



Not to the extent we are seeing in parts of the US.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> All well and good but it's not just 60+ year olds who are dying. We just had a 52 year old die yesterday in Massachusetts so ageism doesn't necessarily work in this case. Yes they are more vulnerable but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



Most of the people under 60 that are dying from it have pre existing conditions.  If you're not old and dont already have underlying health issues, the chances of dying from this are incredibly small


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## JimG. (Mar 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think if we just quarantined everyone over 60, we could have saved lives & saved the economy.



Hate to tell you but us 60+ old geezers also control most of the $$ in this country so that ain't happening.

And you know full well that healthy 60+ folks aren't really in any more danger than 40-50 year olds. Our problem in this country is an extraordinary percentage of people of all ages in poor health in many cases by choice. 

Do I think the current path we are going down is an overreaction? Yes! But that's probably because I'm not worried about dying even if I get it. This is a political reaction to the fact that nobody can afford the political fallout from folks dropping dead in the streets. And that goes for both sides of the aisle. This is a calamity born from a perfect storm of poor choices on many fronts. A total clusterfuck!!

So hunker down and hope you come out whole when it's over.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In theory *I agree too, but I'm not 60 and quite frankly if I were, I'm not sure how I'd feel about being locked in my home purely because of age.  *



As opposed to "locking" everyone in America from infant to 104 years old a home?   I've been out of the house 3 times in 11 days.  The economic destruction being wrought is devastating.  Literally tens-of-millions of new unemployment claims filed.  How many will die from that?   DOW futures are down almost 800 points as I type this as Schumer & Pelosi nixed the "bipartisan plan" to get more goodies.  This is a financial bloodbath and those "over 60" are losing their retirement funds.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2020)

JimG. said:


> And you know full well that *healthy 60+ folks aren't really in any more danger than 40-50 year olds*. Our problem in this country is an extraordinary percentage of people of all ages in poor health in many cases by choice.



This is not true.   A healthy 40 year or healthy 50 year old is more likely to do better with COVID19 than a healthy 60+ year old, because immunological response deteriorates with age.  This is KEY in this situation.  You are right about comorbidities though, that is also key in the death rate with this virus.


EDIT:  May as well share the South Korean data since I track it every day. 

*Fatality rates:*
40-49: 0.08% (slightly less than common influenza's overall rate)
50-59: 0.41% 
60-69: 1.58%


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## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> As opposed to "locking" everyone in America from infant to 104 years old a home?   I've been out of the house 3 times in 11 days.  The economic destruction being wrought is devastating.  Literally tens-of-millions of new unemployment claims filed.  How many will die from that?   DOW futures are down almost 800 points as I type this as Schumer & Pelosi nixed the "bipartisan plan" to get more goodies.  This is a financial bloodbath and those "over 60" are losing their retirement funds.


Thanks 

Most everybody with a functioning brain knows we are in for world of hurt and this economic pause needs to end as soon as possible. 

It's really the second part of my post that is most important.  If social distancing is the new normal when facing a pandemic, what are the standards (laws) going to be?  When do we tell Grandpa to stay home?  When do we hold our kids home.  When is it so bad we have to go nuclear and have everyone stay home?  

Our response to this has been basically flying by the seat of our pants.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Thanks
> 
> Most everybody with a functioning brain knows we are in for world of hurt and this economic pause needs to end as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


If we are to live in a free society do we really need laws to tell X or Y to stay home, especially over something that seems to have a pretty low death rate?  

If we had an honest media and any govt we could trust even a lil, individuals could make these decisions on their own.  This panic was caused and fueled by a media that is extremely dishonest and loves sensationalism, and politicians who love being central to a story. Without panic we’d be fine. Panic is herd behavior. It is definitely a result of a collective elite class brain fart that our children and grandchildren will still be paying for after we pass.


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## gregnye (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is a financial bloodbath and those "over 60" are losing their retirement funds.



Maybe those over 60 should just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" like they keep telling younger people to do. Because that works so well, right? 

Meanwhile there's a whole generation of young people that graduated college and struggled to enter the workforce in 2008 in the middle of recession, and now were just about ready to start their family, right during the beginning of a potential Great Depression 2.0

This virus really exposes the corruption of American society in general. Yes, young people may not die from COVID-10, but once they get medical treatment and see their hospital bill, they are going to want to Die. 

The only good thing I see coming out out of this pandemic is that hopefully there is:

An overhaul of our health care system
An acknowledgement within the government that science is real, and that we can't just fire our pandemic response team and hope for the best.

As for skiing, it will always remain a rich man's sport. I highly expect the number of skiers next year to go down.


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Hate to tell you but us 60+ old geezers also control most of the $$ in this country so that ain't happening.
> 
> And you know full well that healthy 60+ folks aren't really in any more danger than 40-50 year olds. Our problem in this country is an extraordinary percentage of people of all ages in poor health in many cases by choice.
> 
> ...


$$$ saved up over a lifetime wouldn't be of much use of you're older and get sick when the hospital system in your area is at/over capacity. Younger people will have priority.

If we lock everyone in working age away too long, you'd better hope your wealth is in cash. The economy cannot handle this for several months. A prolonged shutdown would be extremely hazardous to your wealth.

While the 60+ crowd might not like it, the reality seems to be they have extra invective to stay home.

I certainly don't have the magic solution, but getting healthy people back to work as soon as practicable is critically important if we want to recover from this reasonably well. If that means asking high risk people to stay home longer than low risk people, that night be the best solution for everyone.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

40% of those hospitalized in US are 20-54 and 12%of those in icu are 20-44.  Sure old folks die more, but this affects all population age groups


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## NYDB (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> 40% of those hospitalized in US are 20-54 and 12%of those in icu are 20-44.  Sure old folks die more, but this affects all population age groups



how many of those folks had an underlying medical condition to begin with?  I'd like to see the breakout on that.  are these people battling cancer?  Chronic conditions?  Diabetes?  

The stats make it seem like a lot of healthy young people are getting hospitalized.  Is that really the case?   

I really don't know, but it seems like important data


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2020)

https://time.com/5805368/will-coronavirus-go-away-world-health-organization/

Interesting article with a WHO senior advisor. 


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> As opposed to "locking" everyone in America from infant to 104 years old a home?   I've been out of the house 3 times in 11 days.  The economic destruction being wrought is devastating.  Literally tens-of-millions of new unemployment claims filed.  How many will die from that?   DOW futures are down almost 800 points as I type this as *Schumer & Pelosi nixed the "bipartisan plan" to get more goodies*.  This is a financial bloodbath and those "over 60" are losing their retirement funds.


To get more goodies? The bill as it was constructed would allow companies to be bailed out, yet still fire/lay employees off. It is/was basically a bill completely company-centric and not looking at people/workers at all. Also, Trump's hotels and properties will be allowed to be bailed out, etc.
https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1241728461313581057?s=20


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## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Most businesses have no choice to shut down right now and lay people off.  The point was to get them money to sustain things so when this craziness is over, they can re open and hire people back.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Most businesses have no choice to shut down right now and lay people off.  The point was to get them money to sustain things so when this craziness is over, they can re open and hire people back.


Understood, that part sucks and is why a bailout is necessary and will happen. However, the idea/opposition is that there is no protection for workers included. So, a company can be bailed out (receive money) and then still turn around and fire/layoff employees. How is that OK? I'm not talking about companies who have had to shut down and lay people off.


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## NYDB (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> Understood, that part sucks and is why a bailout is necessary and will happen. However, the idea/opposition is that there is no protection for workers included. So, a company can be bailed out (receive money) and then still turn around and fire/layoff employees. How is that OK? I'm not talking about companies who have had to shut down and lay people off.



The european models make much more sense.  Direct loans to businesses to pay 75% of laid off workers wages.  Loans then forgiven if used for that purpose


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## kingslug (Mar 23, 2020)

Driving into NYC to man my building..lot of cars on the road. NYC is going to explode with new cases.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> The european models make much more sense.  Direct loans to businesses to pay 75% of laid off workers wages.  Loans then forgiven if used for that purpose


Currently the bill has/had nothing in it to protect or help employees. That's why it didn't get passed. Are we supposed to believe these companies are going to get bailed out and 'do the right thing' and take care of their employees like they should? There is almost zero chance of that happening.


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> To get more goodies? The bill as it was constructed would allow companies to be bailed out, yet still fire/lay employees off. It is/was basically a bill completely company-centric and not looking at people/workers at all. Also, Trump's hotels and properties will be allowed to be bailed out, etc.
> https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1241728461313581057?s=20



I'd be careful what you wish for on this one. I'm an investments employee, and I'd much rather see money go to employers (my company) rather than employees (people like me). Giving individuals money does nothing to protect their jobs. It will make it easier for them to buy groceries and pay rent. That's about it. It's incredibly shortsighted.

If you want the economy to be ready to go when this is over, keeping companies well capitalized and, to the extent possible, fully employed is best. That way, as many consumers and companies are ready to get back to normal as possible. We have unemployment insurance in this country and further relief could come (potential loan or rent/mortgage forbearance). Every day that goes by without a deal means more uncertainty for business and more layoffs.

Job guarantees are tricky. Nobody knows how long this will last. What type of financial guarantee are you willing to make right now? That isn't meant to be patronizing, but in great uncertainty, you should expect guarantees to be hard to come by. I get that 40-45% of the population is excited to criticize everything the White House is doing, but these specific measures are appropriate.

Regarding the Trump hotels, that's a tough one. They probably should receive proportionate bailouts to their industry peers - and someone unrelated to Trump should determine what's proportionate (e.g. an arbitrator). Hotels are going to get whacked as long as this lasts. I don't see why it's ethical to provide a band-aid to help everyone else keep their staff and not Trump hotels. Think about if you chose to work at his property instead of the Hilton down the street. Why should you get kicked to the curb? I get that it's easy political fodder, but it's actually a very complicated issue.

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## kingslug (Mar 23, 2020)

And what are people going to do when their money runs out...credit cards max out...food runs out. This is going to happen to a big percentage of people who live paycheck to paycheck. Its why gun stores are out of guns and ammo. Very scary.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd be careful what you wish for on this one. I'm an investments employee, and I'd much rather see money go to employers (my company) rather than employees (people like me). Giving individuals money does nothing to protect their jobs. It will make it easier for them to buy groceries and pay rent. That's about it. It's incredibly shortsighted.
> 
> If you want the economy to be ready to go when this is over, keeping companies well capitalized and, to the extent possible, fully employed is best. That way, as many consumers and companies are ready to get back to normal as possible. We have unemployment insurance in this country and further relief could come (potential loan or rent/mortgage forbearance). Every day that goes by without a deal means more uncertainty for business and more layoffs.
> 
> ...


I never said money should actually go to employees over employers. I'm just saying those companies who are getting all this money shouldn't be able to turn around and have lay-offs or fire people since the bailouts are generally meant to keep people employed and keep the economy going. I don't think the government should go with the original idea of sending each adult $1,000. That is pointless for the most part and will do nothing to jump-start and/or fix the economy.


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I never said money should actually go to employees over employers. I'm just saying those companies who are getting all this money shouldn't be able to turn around and have lay-offs or fire people since the bailouts are generally meant to keep people employed and keep the economy going. I don't think the government should go with the original idea of sending each adult $1,000. That is pointless for the most part and will do nothing to jump-start and/or fix the economy.



Thanks that's helpful. 

The guarantee that you're not going to do layoffs is the hard part. What would you prefer in this scenario: provide bailouts and keep 90% of employees (and have 10% layoffs), or do nothing and see 30% layoffs? Obviously my numbers are hypothetical, but this is the general problem at hand.

The economy is shrinking as we speak. Getting upset that businesses don't keep the exact number of employees they had before the pandemic is likely to be an unrealistically high standard. Again, I get that it's in some politicians' interests to hold this high standard (administration/economomy is guaranteed to fail to meet the standard), but we need to understand what we're up against and what can be done. 

There are plenty of things to criticize (not taking coronavirus more seriously earlier is a legit second guess), but this measure seems largely appropriate.

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Jim Cramer is on CNBC & he just stated my exact idea of quarantining everyone over 60 (most likely 63 or 64 depending on the data break) & allowing everyone else to get back to work.   He reads AlpineZone!


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## machski (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I never said money should actually go to employees over employers. I'm just saying those companies who are getting all this money shouldn't be able to turn around and have lay-offs or fire people since the bailouts are generally meant to keep people employed and keep the economy going. I don't think the government should go with the original idea of sending each adult $1,000. That is pointless for the most part and will do nothing to jump-start and/or fix the economy.


JCB, let me put this into perspective from my industry, aviation.  Right now, Delta has come and said due to the galactic cliff drop of travel, they are burning $10 million a day to stay afloat.  In a 30 day month, that's $300 million!!  Now, at that burn rate and given future bookings are negative and dropping daily, in the past they would hae already given notice of massive impending layoffs.  They have not done so yet (yes, they have asked for employees to take unpaid leave and 13000 have done so which still keeps their health benefits going), and they are likely best positioned of the big 3 to weather this.  But United is probably the weakest (due in part to their big international routes being bigger transpacific) and already has stated, without Government assistance by the end of March, they will begin the process to pair down their employment levels to match their reduced schedule, in other words more than half the company could be let go.  I don't think they want to do that either, but I bet United's burn rate is higher than Delta's.   How do you expect them to keep their 10's of thousands employed with burn rates like that without government money??  Especially when pretty much no one wants to fly now, tomorrrow or three months from now at the moment???

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

gregnye said:


> The only good thing I see coming out out of this pandemic is that hopefully there is:
> [*]An acknowledgement within the government that science is real, and that *we can't just fire our pandemic response team and hope for the best.*



You've fallen prey to fake news.


https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ities-are-sharing-misleading-post-about-trum/


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Thanks that's helpful.
> 
> The guarantee that you're not going to do layoffs is the hard part. What would you prefer in this scenario: provide bailouts and keep 90% of employees (and have 10% layoffs), or do nothing and see 30% layoffs? Obviously my numbers are hypothetical, but this is the general problem at hand.
> 
> ...


I think your 'scenario' is a little too black and white. The government is not going to 'do nothing' either way. Something is going to get passed and some bailout is going to happen. That much is obvious.

If a company (or companies) are getting millions or billions to keep the status quo, why should said company be able to then turn around and lay off or fire workers? At that point, they don't need to have layoffs or fire workers because they have been bailed out. I'm not saying they need to keep 100% of all workers, but I think there should be some type of protection for employees of companies which are getting all of this financial aid money.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> To get more goodies? The bill as it was constructed would allow companies to be bailed out, yet still fire/lay employees off. It is/was basically a bill completely company-centric and not looking at people/workers at all. Also, Trump's hotels and properties will be allowed to be bailed out, etc.
> https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1241728461313581057?s=20



Why are people this mentally pliable?  

*This bill was DONE.*  It was worked on for days by Democrats & Republicans.   It was about to be voted on & pretty much everybody on both sides of the aisle thought it would pass. Schumer (he's the top Democrat in the Senate) said he thought it would pass

It got blown up literally at the very last minute.

Why?

Because Pelosi parachuted in and destroyed it at the last minute...... the bipartisan bill..... yes, to hopefully get more goodies during a biological disaster. She intentionally waited till' the last minute to exact as much pressure as possible.  Here are some of the things Pelosi's hostage-taking crew wants added this morning.

1) New collective bargaining powers for unions
2) Increased fuel emissions standards for the airlines
3) Expansion of wind & solar tax credits 

Tell me what ANY of that last minute **** has to do with coronavirus safety or preventing Americans from getting laid off today?!?!?!   Literally thousands of Americans are losing their jobs every hour in America.  Literally.  There are thousands getting pink slips as we speak because this bill didnt pass last night like everyone thought it would.   You could watch DOW & S&P futures plunge (I did) in real-time when this happened.

https://twitter.com/mattdizwhitlock/status/1241933483980750852?s=20


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why are people this mentally pliable?  Has the world become so partisan that people cant even think?
> 
> This bill was DONE.  It was worked on for days by Democrats & Republicans.   It was about to be voted on & pretty much everybody thought it would pass.
> 
> ...


I would agree if those are the only 3 things being added, that does nothing to prevent people from being laid off. Pretty dumb to stop the bill if those are the only 3 additions or requests to be added.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

machski said:


> JCB, let me put this into perspective from my industry, aviation.  Right now, Delta has come and said due to the galactic cliff drop of travel, they are burning $10 million a day to stay afloat.  In a 30 day month, that's $300 million!!  Now, at that burn rate and given future bookings are negative and dropping daily, in the past they would hae already given notice of massive impending layoffs.  They have not done so yet (yes, they have asked for employees to take unpaid leave and 13000 have done so which still keeps their health benefits going), and they are likely best positioned of the big 3 to weather this.  But United is probably the weakest (due in part to their big international routes being bigger transpacific) and already has stated, without Government assistance by the end of March, they will begin the process to pair down their employment levels to match their reduced schedule, in other words more than half the company could be let go.  I don't think they want to do that either, but I bet United's burn rate is higher than Delta's.   How do you expect them to keep their 10's of thousands employed with burn rates like that without government money??  Especially when pretty much no one wants to fly now, tomorrrow or three months from now at the moment???
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


I didn't say airlines or other companies don't need or shouldn't get financial aid. It is very clear the airlines are f'd without an influx of money from the government.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I think your 'scenario' is a little too black and white. The government is not going to 'do nothing' either way. Something is going to get passed and some bailout is going to happen. That much is obvious.
> 
> If a company (or companies) are getting millions or billions to keep the status quo, why should said company be able to then turn around and lay off or fire workers? At that point, they don't need to have layoffs or fire workers because they have been bailed out. I'm not saying they need to keep 100% of all workers, but I think there should be some type of protection for employees of companies which are getting all of this financial aid money.



Many businesses are being forced to shut down and lay people off, they have no choice


----------



## NYDB (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jim Cramer is on CNBC & he just stated my exact idea of quarantining everyone over 60 (most likely 63 or 64 depending on the data break) & allowing everyone else to get back to work.   He reads AlpineZone!



You'll be seeing more people mainstreaming this idea in the next weeks.  My only concern is Cat in January's post.  



> 40% of those hospitalized in US are 20-54 and 12%of those in icu are 20-44. Sure old folks die more, but this affects all population age groups



if this is true then it seems we call just can't go back to work.  The healthcare system couldn't handle it


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Many businesses are being forced to shut down and lay people off, they have no choice


Right... because they have not yet been bailed out or received any financial aid. I understand that part of it. You can't save everyone's jobs when the economy is getting completely crushed like it is/has been. I'm not sure what they plan to do with businesses that are being forced to shut down, especially small businesses. Will they be bailed out? Probably not.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> You'll be seeing more people mainstreaming this idea in the next weeks.  My only concern is Cat in January's post.
> 
> 
> 
> if this is true then it seems we call just can't go back to work.  The healthcare system couldn't handle it



Those #s dont indicate those that have underlying conditions already that are under the age of 60.  If you are under 60 and healthy, this is no worse than the flu


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd be careful what you wish for on this one. I'm an investments employee, and I'd much rather see money go to employers (my company) rather than employees (people like me). Giving individuals money does nothing to protect their jobs. It will make it easier for them to buy groceries and pay rent. That's about it. It's incredibly shortsighted.



You're speaking as someone with an understanding of economics & finance.  It's useless trying to get that message through to people who dont have the benedict of that education, are 'emo', and ideologically driven by a belief that all business is "evil" as their starting basis.  It is futile.  

Good post though nonetheless.


----------



## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

Not sure if you will find evidence to support that.  I have seen many anecdotal accounts of young healthy people becoming sick.

Response to icecoast1 above.  Without data I think you are just flinging poo


----------



## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I think your 'scenario' is a little too black and white. The government is not going to 'do nothing' either way. Something is going to get passed and some bailout is going to happen. That much is obvious.
> 
> If a company (or companies) are getting millions or billions to keep the status quo, why should said company be able to then turn around and lay off or fire workers? At that point, they don't need to have layoffs or fire workers because they have been bailed out. I'm not saying they need to keep 100% of all workers, but I think there should be some type of protection for employees of companies which are getting all of this financial aid money.



I tend to simplify these things a lot because it's easy to miss the forest though the trees. I'm well aware it's impossible to adequately protect everyone in a country and economy this large.

Companies are being bailed out to keep the status quo to the extent possible, which is a very important distinction. If you offer businesses money while telling them you have no idea when they can open again AND you're going to punish them if they lay people off, you're going to get a lot of businesses that would rather go it alone and lay way more people off than necessary. On a macro level, this can cost society much more than it saves (higher unemployment and unreadiness to recover). What you're proposing is a luxury we cannot afford except in specific circumstances (Boeing, for example).

In some cases, this is actually worse than I represented. Boeing is likely to get a massive bailout and will probably lay a ton of people off at the same time. I suspect the c suite will get scrutinized, though, because the company apparently wasn't as sturdy as it should have been. That company would probably get picked apart in bankruptcy if the government doesn't help. Needless to say, that could do real damage to worldwide air travel/cargo.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> Not sure if you will find evidence to support that.  I have seen many anecdotal accounts of young healthy people becoming sick.
> 
> Response to icecoast1 above.  Without data I think you are just flinging poo



Anecdotal accounts of young people getting sick does not make it worse than the flu.  Never said young people dont get sick.  But in terms of death rate, if you are young and healthy this is no worse than the flu.  Data was already posted by someone else if you want to scroll back and find it


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> Not sure if you will find evidence to support that.  I have seen many anecdotal accounts of young healthy people becoming sick.
> 
> Response to icecoast1 above.  Without data I think you are just flinging poo



Plenty of evidence out there of people younger than 40 ill from it to.
I try to due right thing staying inside my apartment self
Since before it became too government attention weeks ago
Music on spodify facecrap ski forum s 
Lots of awesome movies
Trying to not watch too much cable


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> You'll be seeing more people mainstreaming this idea in the next weeks.  My only concern is Cat in January's post.  if this is true then it seems we call just can't go back to work.  The healthcare system couldn't handle it



So, two things on that:

1)  It is true there are a lot of younger people in the hospital (I haven't seen the exact percentages from American data, IIRC it's something like 30% in South Korea), but that's because they're the most likely to contract COVID19.  Why is that?  My guess is because these are the most social and moving about of our society. Or more likely to be on a beach while others stay at home (sigh).  Regardless, they will likely make a full recovery as even though younger people who require hospital stays are not dying from coronavirus.

2) Some of those hospitalized < 50 have pre-existing conditions and/or comorbidities (lifelong smoker, COPD, respiratory problems, etc.), and under the idea I laid out, those people would have to quarantine along with the 60+ crowd.


----------



## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Anecdotal accounts of young people getting sick does not make it worse than the flu.  Never said young people dont get sick.  But in terms of death rate, if you are young and healthy this is no worse than the flu.  Data was already posted by someone else if you want to scroll back and find it



You said it was no worse than the flu.  The data says this is much worse than the flu in terms of hospitalization and icu rates.  This is a very different disease in terms of its health impacts on all parts of society.  To say otherwise is flat out wrong and contributes to a worsening problem.  Educate yourself


----------



## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez that is just personal hypothesizing without any background.  Again this leads others to false assumptions and possibly poor decisions.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-u-looking-very-closely-161900234.html


----------



## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jim Cramer is on CNBC & he just stated my exact idea of quarantining everyone over 60 (most likely 63 or 64 depending on the data break) & allowing everyone else to get back to work.   He reads AlpineZone!


What ever Cramer says I always vote for the opposite 

Don't understand why we just don't let people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc?  If a restaurant is still open, I can deem it as a high risk location and subsequently avoid it. I can self ban. People have worked too hard to have their livelihoods upended like this. I’m not diminishing the virus. However, I cannot abide by this wild govt overreach. 

It’s a modern version of fdr’s internment of Japanese Americans. Only this time, people are being interned to their homes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> *You said it was no worse than the flu.  The data says this is much worse than the flu in terms of hospitalization and icu rates.*  This is a very different disease in terms of its health impacts on all parts of society.  To say otherwise is flat out wrong and contributes to a worsening problem.  Educate yourself



I realize you hear everyone say that on TV, but I'm not even sure we can say that yet.

Your post made me examine a bad flu year, and 2017 was REALLY bad.  The hospitalization rate that year was over 103 per 100,000 Americans (data below).  I used 330,000,000 Americans for my math,and that yields 340,000 common flu hospitalizations that year from flu.


Are we going to get 300,000 coronavirus hospitalizations nationwide?  


EDIT:  Made a bad math error, had to fix

https://gis.cdc.gov/GRASP/Fluview/FluHospRates.html


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> BenedictGomez that is just personal hypothesizing without any background.  Again this leads others to false assumptions and possibly poor decisions.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-u-looking-very-closely-161900234.html




That article actually proves that younger people are much less vulnerable to the virus and it is older people and elderly that are hardest hit by it.   Also the data is not broken down as far as how many people, especially under 65 that had pre existing conditions


----------



## Edd (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> It’s a modern version of fdr’s internment of Japanese Americans. Only this time, people are being interned to their homes.



Breathtakingly stupid statement.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> BenedictGomez that is just personal hypothesizing without any background.  Again this leads others to false assumptions and possibly poor decisions.



The data you cite (38% from infant to 54) isnt drastically different from the South Korean experience I noted, and unlike Korea it's also based on pretty low 'N's since it's dated.  

Also, *that birth to 54 age cohort makes up 71% of our population.* That obviously needs to be considered.


----------



## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

Edd said:


> Breathtakingly stupid statement.


Instead of giving some anal-alysis, why not take part in the discussion and and explain ...  

Why can't people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc? 

If a restaurant is still open, why can't I and others deem it as a high risk location and subsequently avoid it?  

Why can't we self ban? 

Again I am not diminishing this virus but why should we abide by yet another example of govt overreach authority?


----------



## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

Younger individuals who are infected, although they certainly are at risk of developing severe symptoms requiring hospitalization, are mainly a concern because if they are asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic they are still spreading the virus. They serve as a useful vector for the disease, and can infect higher risk populations that they come into contact with.

Also, our healthcare system is built to deal with the flu. We anticipate hospitalizations from seasonal flu and our healthcare system can absorb that kind of strain. However, if you add on top of that a crises that requires x number of beds, ICU space, etc. it quickly strains the system as it cannot absorb the added demand. And keep in mind, covid19 is not just a regular flu as estimates on the mortality rate put it one to two orders of magnitude above the seasonal flu depending on the country you look at. So you're flooding the health system with people that need intensive care, and many of whom will die. And without any social distancing measures or emergency scrambling, however late they're coming, to make more hospital space, you would see those numbers increase even further.

So in short, you're seeing these lockdowns and distancing restrictions because we have to keep new infections/hospitalizations in a range our hospital system can deal with. There's a threshold over which the number of new cases would swamp our healthcare providers. Italy is a good example of what happens in that situation.


----------



## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

Seems icecoast1 the only data you see is death rates. 55% of cases in NY are 18-49

BG I guess you have been blind to what is happening in Italy, France and Spain in terms of how the hospitals have been overwhelmed.  Our rate of infection models theirs only with a lag of several weeks.  Do you think President Trump would have taken the course he has putting the economy second (I have never known a more economy first president) if what you say is true?


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## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb for the same reasons people can not determine what amount of alcohol they can consume and drive.  The costs of disease spread are born by all of us


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> Instead of giving some anal-alysis, why not take part in the discussion and and explain ...
> 
> Why can't people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc?
> 
> ...



I'm with Edd on this one. 

Your take is the libertarian version of conflating historical atrocities with managing the border. It's unhelpful at best. 

Sitting tight in your home to prevent the spread of a virus is not comparable to being put into an internment camp because you're a Japanese immigrant.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> BG I guess you have been blind to what is happening in Italy, France and Spain in terms of how the hospitals have been overwhelmed.  Our rate of infection models theirs only with a lag of several weeks.  Do you think President Trump would have taken the course he has putting the economy second (I have never known a more economy first president) if what you say is true?




1) For a multitude of reasons, we are not going to be Italy

2) I would never try to predict what POTUS will do


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> Younger individuals who are infected, although they certainly are at risk of developing severe symptoms requiring hospitalization, are mainly a concern because if they are asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic they are still spreading the virus. They serve as a useful vector for the disease, and can infect higher risk populations that they come into contact with.
> 
> Also, our healthcare system is built to deal with the flu. We anticipate hospitalizations from seasonal flu and our healthcare system can absorb that kind of strain. However, if you add on top of that a crises that requires x number of beds, ICU space, etc. it quickly strains the system as it cannot absorb the added demand. And keep in mind, covid19 is not just a regular flu as estimates on the mortality rate put it one to two orders of magnitude above the seasonal flu depending on the country you look at. So you're flooding the health system with people that need intensive care, and many of whom will die. And without any social distancing measures or emergency scrambling, however late they're coming, to make more hospital space, you would see those numbers increase even further.
> 
> So in short, you're seeing these lockdowns and distancing restrictions because we have to keep new infections/hospitalizations in a range our hospital system can deal with. There's a threshold over which the number of new cases would swamp our healthcare providers. Italy is a good example of what happens in that situation.



You could ease the strain on the system and keep the economy going at the same time.   Shutting the whole country down is a gross over reaction


----------



## Cat in January (Mar 23, 2020)

Yes that would mean having a developed coordinated plan with sufficient testing and tracking so we could identify hotspots.  Unfortunately time has passed for that to be the route


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## kingslug (Mar 23, 2020)

Cuomo goes to 100% stay at home except for essential services...NYC new cases still rising. Yes we are testing more but the parks are filled with people. If businesses were still open, they would be filled with people. In this case you cannot let the population self govern. 
Another mind boggling thing from his updates: we are competing with other states for medical supplies. They are being sold to the highest bidder. I don't even know what to make of that.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Cat in January said:


> Yes that would mean having a developed coordinated plan with sufficient testing and tracking so we could identify hotspots.  Unfortunately time has passed for that to be the route




They should be using the 15 day shutdown to correct that and put a plan in place to start slowly allowing things to get back to normal in the short term, not months from now


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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> You could ease the strain on the system and keep the economy going at the same time.   Shutting the whole country down is a gross over reaction



Unfortunately you would have had to aggressively tested and tracked the earliest cases to keep the numbers down to do that. We will be dealing with sick individuals who were infected 1-2 weeks ago. The numbers are already quite high and the govt response kneecapped itself by not expanding testing capacity early on. We are still far away from the kind of uniform testing that would be necessary to do this. It may be possible in two weeks, but it is better to plan as if it won't while hoping it does right now. 

We will be experiencing that large strain on the system inevitably at this point. I understand the concept of not wanting to harm the economy, but that would have required policies and planning that simply wasn't in place.


----------



## machski (Mar 23, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> Right... because they have not yet been bailed out or received any financial aid. I understand that part of it. You can't save everyone's jobs when the economy is getting completely crushed like it is/has been. I'm not sure what they plan to do with businesses that are being forced to shut down, especially small businesses. Will they be bailed out? Probably not.


Well, every day that goes by with the economy shut causes shrinking of business still open.  Everyday that goes by without corporate aid is a deeper and deeper hole they find themselves in.  When said aid does arrive, if that hole got deeper than needed, that will cost jobs as they now have the burden of debt to carry as well.  All this is intertwined JCB.  Giving a company money is needed, but if the business is smaller or they have more debt burden, they will have to she's jobs.  And the "bailout" will never fully cover their cash burns, it will only soften them.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

Man i didnt realize it but apparently our economy really needs all of the following to save it from bankruptcies collapse 

Us postal bailout
Early voting
Election audits
Wind and solar tax credits
Federal employee union collective bargaining 
New emissions standards for airlines

Now we can all definitely feel better and more confident that our politicians have their finger on the pulse of Americans and our immediate needs


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> 1) For a multitude of reasons, we are not going to be Italy
> 
> 2) I would never try to predict what POTUS will do



New York might be worse than Italy the way things are going. 

As to POTUS, I have the feeling he can't himself predict what he's going to say.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> New York might be worse than Italy the way things are going.
> 
> As to POTUS, I have the feeling he can't himself predict what he's going to say.



New Yorks death rate is around .9 percent below the nation's average and nowhere near italy.  The City itself will probably go down as the hardest hit in the Country but saying it's worse than Italy is exaggerating


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> Man i didnt realize it but apparently our economy really needs all of the following to save it from bankruptcies collapse
> 
> Us postal bailout
> Early voting
> ...



NONE of this has to do with coronavirus safety, saving Americans' jobs or keeping the US economy from collapsing.  

Honestly, when I first heard this I figured it must be a far-right rumor (i.e. a political lie), but it's true, and you can even find this last minute **** crammed into the bill (text of one example below).

Thousands of Americans are literally losing their jobs by the hour (again, literally), but let's hold all this up for Global Warming studies, Union handouts, Wind farms, and a host of other Democrat campaign donor goodie handouts.   I am sick to my stomach.

https://twitter.com/WallWallme/status/1242150230189105155?s=20


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> New Yorks death rate is around .9 percent below the nation's average and nowhere near italy.  The City itself will probably go down as the hardest hit in the Country but saying it's worse than Italy is exaggerating



I did not say it's worse.  I said it might get there.  Considering the number of cases, the growth and the lagging of tests, it very well might.  Hopefully it won't, but you seem way too overconfident about this.  The numbers are not looking good.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> I did not say it's worse.  I said it might get there.  Considering the number of cases, the growth and the lagging of tests, it very well might.  Hopefully it won't, but you seem way too overconfident about this.  The numbers are not looking good.




New York is doing almost 20 times the # of tests they were doing a few days ago, nearly double the next closest state and roughly 25 percent of the current testing in the Country which is a large factor in the rapid growth.  If other states were doing the same amount of testing per capita as New York, you'd see some pretty large growth elsewhere too.   The rate of hospitalization has dropped from over 20 to 13 as well as more testing is done as well, it's not all doom and gloom and headed for italy as some think it is.


----------



## skiur (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> What ever Cramer says I always vote for the opposite
> 
> Don't understand why we just don't let people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc?  If a restaurant is still open, I can deem it as a high risk location and subsequently avoid it. I can self ban. People have worked too hard to have their livelihoods upended like this. I’m not diminishing the virus. However, I cannot abide by this wild govt overreach.
> 
> It’s a modern version of fdr’s internment of Japanese Americans. Only this time, people are being interned to their homes.



And there is the problem, to many morons that think like you.  If we just let them go as they feel this will never end and the economy will be really fucked.  Let's buckle down now and get this thing in the rear view mirror as quick as we can and that requires people to stay home which you just proved they won't do unless forced too.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

skiur said:


> And there is the problem, to many morons that think like you.  If we just let them go as they feel this will never end and the economy will be really fucked.  Let's buckle down now and get this thing in the rear view mirror as quick as we can and that requires people to stay home which you just proved they won't do unless forced too.



It doesnt have to require "All" people to stay home.  Hopefully these 15 days are being used to come up with a system to allow certain people and certain parts of the country to function aside from only those deemed "essential", before we start doing serious irreversible damage


----------



## flakeydog (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> Why can't people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc?
> 
> If a restaurant is still open, why can't I and others deem it as a high risk location and subsequently avoid it?
> 
> ...




Because you get a dumb-ass out there like Rand Paul that decides that he wants to gallivant around town while awaiting the results of his Covid-19 test.  Why not have a few meetings, go to the gym, test out the sneeze guards at the local the Golden Corral, stuff like that.  No big deal, right?  Remember the douche-bag that hopped on his JetBlue flight only to find out he was positive when he arrived?  Unfortunately when its clear you can't trust people to look beyond their own self interest, you have to take steps.  It only takes a few assholes to ruin it for the rest of us.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Another one of today's Democrat attachments to the bill:

*THIS IS NOT FROM AN ONION ARTICLE*

Airline passengers on US flights must be informed that Greenhouse gases are bad for the planet, as well as forcing the airlines to buy 100% carbon offsets.

https://twitter.com/rachelbovard/status/1242131193069547522/photo/1


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2020)

TyWebb said:


> Instead of giving some anal-alysis, why not take part in the discussion and and explain ...
> 
> Why can't people determine for themselves whether or not they want to shut their businesses down, stay home, etc?
> 
> ...



Because that's not for the better of society.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> New York is doing almost 20 times the # of tests they were doing a few days ago, nearly double the next closest state and roughly 25 percent of the current testing in the Country which is a large factor in the rapid growth.  If other states were doing the same amount of testing per capita as New York, you'd see some pretty large growth elsewhere too.   The rate of hospitalization has dropped from over 20 to 13 as well as more testing is done as well, it's not all doom and gloom and headed for italy as some think it is.



THIS.   

It's bad, but it's not Italy.   People dont undertand you cant simply compare populations in 1v1 fashion.

Things Italy has working against it that America doesn't.

1) Second oldest population on planet earth (HELLO!!!!!  This is kind of a big deal)
2) Smoking rate almost twice that of America
3) Their healthcare system is a train-wreck compared to America
4) They didn't take coronavirus seriously until they were way past where we are now
5) Relatively few people get the flu vaccine = higher inpatient rates

And more.....


----------



## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

skiur said:


> And there is the problem, to many morons that think like you.  If we just let them go as they feel this will never end and the economy will be really fucked.  Let's buckle down now and get this thing in the rear view mirror as quick as we can and that requires people to stay home which you just proved they won't do unless forced too.


Lol ok!  

You don't realize what is happening right now and these state govts need to put a stop to it immediately.  If this goes on much longer people will lose their life savings, many businesses will be gone and not come back, etc.  From your local barbershop, local restaurants, mom and pop's to larger corporations. Commercial landlords are toast, many centers will fail, supply chains are going to be very hard to restart smoothly. The analogies the media is making to prior recessions are bs. This is a car accident, not a flat tire. The economy went from full speed to stopped in 2 weeks. That’s kills businesses just like car accidents kill people. And businesses are so interconnected the contagion will be like a virus, but faster and worse thn the current medical virus.

The big picture policy types who do the math will be swinging from trees when society figures out just how wrong they were.


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Because you get a dumb-ass out there like Rand Paul that decides that he wants to gallivant around town while awaiting the results of his Covid-19 test.  Why not have a few meetings, go to the gym, test out the sneeze guards at the local the Golden Corral, stuff like that.  No big deal, right?  Remember the douche-bag that hopped on his JetBlue flight only to find out he was positive when he arrived?  Unfortunately when its clear you can't trust people to look beyond their own self interest, you have to take steps.  It only takes a few assholes to ruin it for the rest of us.



The ironic thing here is that if we took a more selective approach to who was quarantined and who wasnt, Rand Paul would probably meet the criteria of somebody who should stay isolated seeing as he has an underlying condition:grin:


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Another one of today's Democrat attachments to the bill:
> 
> *THIS IS NOT FROM AN ONION ARTICLE*
> 
> ...



If true. this is completely moronic.   I doubt this is the reason there are still no deal in place however.  One side it using this to make the other side look bad.  Which the other side could have easily avoided by not putting this crap in the text in the first place.

US politics are broken (and both sides are to blame).


----------



## ScottySkis (Mar 23, 2020)

US politics are broken (and both sides are to blame).[/QUOTE]

Best post and accurate on AZ today


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> *If true. this is completely moronic.   I doubt this is the reason there are still no deal in place however.  *



It is true (I linked to text from the bill), and it is 100% why there is no deal.  

These are last minute additions to a bipartisan plan Democrats & Republicans had worked on all week long. 

 Democrats thought they could add all these left-wing goodies last minute & Republicans would feel so much political pressure that they'd be forced to vote for it anyway.


And dont FORGET diversity initiatives! 

 I hear the coronavirus can be eradicated by hiring more minorities.


----------



## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Airline passengers on US flights must be informed that Greenhouse gases are bad for the planet, as well as forcing the airlines to buy 100% carbon offsets.



Haha. I get bring tempted to use leverage when you know your votes are needed, but this is just strange.

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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> THIS.
> 
> It's bad, but it's not Italy.   People dont undertand you cant simply compare populations in 1v1 fashion.
> 
> ...



1- true
2- I'm surprised it's only twice 
3- This is false.  Italy ranks very highly (and ahead of the US) on most health care systems rankings.  Life expectancy testifies to that (not the only factor) being top 5 in the world (US not even in the top 30). Take into account the large percentage of uninsured people in the US, and the obesity rates and you have additional problems.
4- From what I have seen, the US response pretty much follows the same scenario as Italy.   Don't forget POTUS spent several weeks spreading disinformation which cost the US response dearly.
5- no clue,  and not sure how this relates to the problem at hand, since healthcare systems capacity are designed to handle the flu.


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Haha. I get bring tempted to use leverage when you know your votes are needed, but this is just strange.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yep, if you're to use your leverage, use it at least for something that actually makes sense.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Coronavirus can only be eliminated once all 50 of these United States permit early voting in all Federal elections!!!!!

Meanwhile, thousands of Americans are losing their jobs today.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

The virus also agrees only to stop plaguing us once people in all 50 states can walk up to a table on election day & instantly register to vote!


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## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Yep, if you're to use your leverage, use it at least for something that actually makes sense.



At a time when millions are suffering and depending on the aid in the bill that was already bi partisanly negotiated.  Absolutely brilliant


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

There's nothing coronavirus fears more than black people owning banks!!!!   Thanks Democrats!!!

Meanwhile, Marriott just had to furlough THOUSANDS of jobs due to economic uncertainty.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/marrio...ad-in-response-to-travel-collapse-11584834631


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> At a time when millions are suffering and depending on the aid in the bill that was already bi partisanly negotiated.  Absolutely brilliant



It's actually worse than that;  Democrats played a huge part in crafting the bill, so Republicans thought this was a done deal.  

This got sprung on the GOP last minute when they thought it would pass.  

 You KNOW the media isnt going to point out any of the BS I'm sharing here, they'll just parrot whatever the Democrat talking point is to make it look like _"Republicans wont pass the bill"_ - just wait for it.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

ROFL.

There's a section on bailing out the United States Post Office, and a section on saving community newspapers, but I'll spare everyone the details.


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## mbedle (Mar 23, 2020)

Keep drinking the water!!!! OMG, it's amazing how easy it is to craft a story to fit one's narrative.


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Keep drinking the water!!!! OMG, it's amazing how easy it is to craft a story to fit one's narrative.


?

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

$15 minimum wage is in there too!!!!!!

Because of course it is!!!!!


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## p_levert (Mar 23, 2020)

I dunno about greenhouse gas statements, but if we give something to the airlines, we should get something in return.  I think I would put in a regulation on minimum seat pitch and limit fees to check baggage (maybe max of $10 to check a bag).  Also, require a thorough cleaning of the plane after *every* flight, not just at night.  We all get treated like sh*t by the airlines, let's fix a few things.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I dunno about greenhouse gas statements, but if we give something to the airlines, we should get something in return.  I think I would put in a regulation on minimum seat pitch and limit fees to check baggage (maybe max of $10 to check a bag).  Also, require a thorough cleaning of the plane after *every* flight, not just at night.  We all get treated like sh*t by the airlines, let's fix a few things.




and all of that will just lead to an increase in fares due to less passengers, less flights, more staff etc.   We don't need that much regulation


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## 1dog (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It is true (I linked to text from the bill), and it is 100% why there is no deal.
> 
> These are last minute additions to a bipartisan plan Democrats & Republicans had worked on all week long.
> 
> ...



That's amazing BG but really not surprising using the theme ' never let a crisis go to waste'.

Any thoughts that the WHO is objective - um no, no they're not: https://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty

As for politics in the US - fanning the flames of leftist control is nothing new, its just now out in the open. Even some on the 'right' have adopted these ideas . . . .


Every 2 years we get the make the change - and we started with 1994 then 2010 then 2016 - '18 was change, but moreso because 52 Republicans retired.

When it doesn't work - its voters fault - we all hate Congress - except 'our guy' who brings home the bacon. 

Once we remove separate benefits ( retirement and healthcare funding and protections from them  (and stock selling protections), they might actually do something.


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## EPB (Mar 23, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I dunno about greenhouse gas statements, but if we give something to the airlines, we should get something in return.  I think I would put in a regulation on minimum seat pitch and limit fees to check baggage (maybe max of $10 to check a bag).  Also, require a thorough cleaning of the plane after *every* flight, not just at night.  We all get treated like sh*t by the airlines, let's fix a few things.



Any deal with the airline industry should really be focused on what matters - keeping companies afloat and ready to ramp back up as soon as practicable.  It's probably going to be a big enough effort on it's own without any added extracurriculars. 

Practically speaking, I'd love cleaner planes, though. 

The consumer would ultimately bear the brunt of these changes:
-Extra time cleaning means either longer turnaround times, more employees to pay to handle more cleaning, or both.
-Minimum pitch per seat would necessarily lower the number of passengers that can fit on a plane in cases where airlines are below the minimum.
-Changing the bag check rules just means the airlines will charge you more elsewhere. I actually kinda like the current model because it allows you to save if you're not checking a bag. Agree with the sentiment that they can make purchase decisions more of a hassle though.

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## ScottySkis (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> New York is doing almost 20 times the # of tests they were doing a few days ago, nearly double the next closest state and roughly 25 percent of the current testing in the Country which is a large factor in the rapid growth.  If other states were doing the same amount of testing per capita as New York, you'd see some pretty large growth elsewhere too.   The rate of hospitalization has dropped from over 20 to 13 as well as more testing is done as well, it's not all doom and gloom and headed for italy as some think it is.



Wish people stop believing what we don't know.
I am sure it part reasons why people are still not touching stuff
Working in retail without protection 
My friend on facecrap in Vermont doing inventory at store 

Yes young 1 can get to.

Kayla Dougherty, a 20-year-old NJ college student, was one of many young people who didn't take the novel coronavirus seriously. Now, after testing positive for COVID-19 and experiencing the symptoms, she has a warning for her peers. http://4.nbcny.com/R49mirT


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## RichT (Mar 23, 2020)

Vote them out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## p_levert (Mar 23, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> and all of that will just lead to an increase in fares due to less passengers, less flights, more staff etc.   We don't need that much regulation



Airline travel has become degrading and stressful.  And it's unhealthy.  It's ok to pay more.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *The consumer would ultimately bear the brunt of these changes:*
> -Extra time cleaning means either longer turnaround times, more employees to pay to handle more cleaning, or both.
> -Minimum pitch per seat would necessarily lower the number of passengers that can fit on a plane in cases where airlines are below the minimum.
> -Changing the bag check rules just means the airlines will charge you more elsewhere. I actually kinda like the current model because it allows you to save if you're not checking a bag. Agree with the sentiment that they can make purchase decisions more of a hassle though.



- Forcing them to pay for carbon offsets for every mile they fly

These people are ****** insane.


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> - Forcing them to pay for carbon offsets for every mile they fly
> 
> These people are ****** insane.



This is off topic but carbon offset is an environmental tax, like the many others we have.   Should if be in the COVID-19 relief bill ?  Of course not.  But the idea is not insane.


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## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Because that's not for the better of society.


What?

Do you even realize what would be in store for society if we hit 30-40% unemployment rates?  More lives would be destroyed in the usa as a result of that than this virus ever will.

Families will be absolutely crushed.
Suicide will skyrocket 
Crime will skyrocket 
Riots
Looting

We would be flirting with societal collapse or maybe not even flirt with it.  I think even the most naive among us should understand the absolute shit show this country will be with unemployment rates worse than the great depression


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## Dickc (Mar 23, 2020)

RichT said:


> Vote them out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Most are well over 60 years old.  COVID-19 might just do this for you, whether you want it to or not!


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

Dickc said:


> Most are well over 60 years old.  COVID-19 might just do this for you, whether you want it to or not!



The more they argue about the relief bill the more likely it gets.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> The more they argue about the relief bill the more likely it gets.



Exactly.

It's not an "argument" though, supposedly this bill was all but a done deal Saturday night.  

Then it turned into a far-left hostage situation, all while   people are being laid-off by the thousands & others are dying.   Only the most bitter leftist partisans could support what the Democrats are doing.


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then it turned into a far-left hostage situation, all while   people are being laid-off by the thousands & others are dying.   Only the most bitter leftist partisans could support what the Democrats are doing.



For a guy who is “no Trump apologist”, I’m thinking Trump would really dig your vibe. “Far left hostage situation” is right up his Twitter alley.


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2020)

On a side note, I’m watching Pence at a press conference who, compared to Trump, comes off as a functional adult, and seems oddly comforting.


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## p_levert (Mar 23, 2020)

I have to admit, I am rather skeptical of these "extracts from the Democratic law".  The current effort is being led by the Senate, which is not a hotbed of radicals.  Also, the Democrats keep voting down the proposal as insufficient, so it just doesn't seem possible that this stuff is in the law under consideration in the Senate.  Is this stuff that an AOC staffer cooked up?  Or just out and out fabrications?  Before I believe any of it, I need a link to an official government organization, not a Twitter link to a right wing activist.


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 23, 2020)

what about CEO pay?  should CEO's earn millions while their companies accept dirty leftist socialist government payouts all while employees are laid off?


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 23, 2020)

how about we cap CEO pay at any company that wants taxpayer money?  seems reasonable to me...


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 23, 2020)

socialism for big corporations and ceo's the rest of you schmucks better get some ammo and bootstraps


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I have to admit,* I am rather skeptical of these "extracts from the Democratic law"*.  The current effort is being led by the Senate, which is not a hotbed of radicals.  Also,* the Democrats keep voting down the proposal as insufficient, so it just doesn't seem possible that this stuff is in the law under consideration in the Senate.  Is this stuff that an AOC staffer cooked up?  Or just out and out fabrications?* *Before I believe any of it, I need a link to an official government organization*, not a Twitter link to a right wing activist.



Every bit of Democrat madness & insanity I posted is in there, but I get it, the truth hurts, so get some ibuprofen before you read it (link below).

Make sure you take a second pill before you get to the part where *YOU* pay off $10,000 in student debt *per* millennial!

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6817711-Updated-House-Bill


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## Not Sure (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> This is off topic but carbon offset is an environmental tax, like the many others we have.   Should if be in the COVID-19 relief bill ?  Of course not.  But the idea is not insane.



It is ridiculous! I put it in the same category as adopting a whale . No more than a way to relieve guilt for using energy ,serves no purpose other than giving a politicians more money and control over our lives.


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## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

Female physician (Dr. Fauci's protege) came out with a bunch of new data today during the press conference. Fatality rate still very low in Europe for 50 and under. Average mortality rate in Italy is mid-80s, almost all have at least 3 pre-existing conditions.


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> It is ridiculous! I put it in the same category as adopting a whale . No more than a way to relieve guilt for using energy ,serves no purpose other than giving a politicians more money and control over our lives.


Obviously, if you don't believe in climate change science it is a stupid tax.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Obviously, if you don't believe in climate change science it is a stupid tax.



Arguing about it and trying to attach it to a bill that's meant to help millions of people and businesses that are struggling is stupid, whether you believe in it or not.  Even more so at the last minute when a deal had essentially been negotiated


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## Not Sure (Mar 23, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Obviously, if you don't believe in climate change science it is a stupid tax.



Ok the earth is warming yes ,what purpose does the "Tax " serve ? So if I pay more tax it will get cooler ????
Hell No !!! Sorry second rum and coke went down to fast .


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## Not Sure (Mar 23, 2020)

People need money now not bullshit politics !!!!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2020)

A theory:

Drug treatments are showing early promise.  Trump is laying the groundwork to get us out of our houses, with the resulting infections, but an acceptable death rate because of drug treatments.


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## Not Sure (Mar 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> A theory:
> 
> Drug treatments are showing early promise.  Trump is laying the groundwork to get us out of our houses, with the resulting infections, but an acceptable death rate because of drug treatments.



Yes his hand is being forced. In the end what will kill more people , the Flu , TDS , Covid or a crashing economy?


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## Bumpsis (Mar 23, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Ok the earth is warming yes ,what purpose does the "Tax " serve ? So if I pay more tax it will get cooler ????
> .



Yes! I mean honestly, you really need this to be explained??

I haven't tuned into this thread for a good while, but man, between you, BenedicGomes and a few others, it's like tuning into the Infowars. I hope you guys are getting paid for this!!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> I haven't tuned into this thread for a good while, but man, between you, BenedicGomes and a few others, it's like tuning into the Infowars. I hope you guys are getting paid for this!!



Create a list of all the factually inaccurate things I've posted in this thread.   I'll get the popcorn.   The few times I've speculated it's been based on legitimate science or projected data, and I note when I "speculate".


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> Yes! I mean honestly, you really need this to be explained??
> 
> I haven't tuned into this thread for a good while, but man, between you, BenedicGomes and a few others, it's like tuning into the Infowars. I hope you guys are getting paid for this!!



Do you think this stuff should be added to this bill? I know it is done all the time but still.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 23, 2020)

Once again, this doesn't end until everyone gets exposed and either lives or dies, or they find a working vaccine. Everything else is just a sub-plot. 

Cram all those politicians in a small room, including the ones testing positive/self quarantining... and see how fast they come up with and pass a bill.


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## TyWebb (Mar 23, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> Yes! I mean honestly, you really need this to be explained??
> 
> I haven't tuned into this thread for a good while, but man, between you, BenedicGomes and a few others, it's like tuning into the Infowars. I hope you guys are getting paid for this!!



How many people die with 30-40% unemployment?

Those that survive ... how many families/lives are destroyed?


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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> A theory:
> 
> Drug treatments are showing early promise.  Trump is laying the groundwork to get us out of our houses, with the resulting infections, but an acceptable death rate because of drug treatments.



Are they?


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## Keelhauled (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Every bit of Democrat madness & insanity I posted is in there, but I get it, the truth hurts, so get some ibuprofen before you read it (link below).
> 
> Make sure you take a second pill before you get to the part where *YOU* pay off $10,000 in student debt *per* millennial!
> 
> https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6817711-Updated-House-Bill



You linked the House bill.  That was not what was voted down in the Senate the last two days.  It has not even gone to vote in the House yet, to say nothing of being reconciled with whatever comes out of the Senate.  The sticking point in the Senate bill from the perspective of the Democrats is largely a lack of accountability as to where money would be spent or loaned. They want more restrictive language that would give companies less discretion over the use of bailout money to ensure that employees are not laid off even after a company has gotten money from the government, as well as more transparency over where the money is directed.  As drafted, the Treasury Department has authority over the dispersal of money but is not required to actually disclose where it sent funds for six months.


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## JimG. (Mar 23, 2020)

Wow I missed a lot today just trying to read it is making me dizzy.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2020)

Everybody done?  I mean this is how politics has always played out my entire adult life.  Anytime there's cause for Congress to approve a big check, both sides wrangle for unrelated goodies to the cause in order to either buy votes or campaign donations.  It goes both ways.  I'm sure if you look deep enough you'll find a provision where $20B can go towards  Unicorn Fart dust powered energy plants provided that the Space Force gets similar funding AND an X Wing fighter guarantee. None of that Commie TIE fighter crap.

Many more important things about this shut down to discuss such as



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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

Honestly I'd be cool if the mods just locked these political threads. No good ever comes of it. Nobody here is really informed on whats going on anyway.


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## Bumpsis (Mar 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Create a list of all the factually inaccurate things I've posted in this thread.   I'll get the popcorn.   The few times I've speculated it's been based on legitimate science or projected data, and I note when I "speculate".



BD, it is my simple observation that you have been duping all sorts of right wing pablum on this forum for years, from dubious economical pronouncements to defending opprobrious "gun rights" positions and passing them off as based in facts and science. And that's all good - forums are for opinions, right?

 You're also the biggest climate change denier on this forum and that's what I find most objectionable since that can actually be harmful. And your position in defense of this just simply: "prove it". I don't have to. Your posts speak for themselves.  I'm not about to waste my time combing through your posts - I actually have a rather interesting book I'll be getting back to so I'll decline your invitation for this fool's errand.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Everybody done?  I mean this is how politics has always played out my entire adult life.  Anytime there's cause for Congress to approve a big check, both sides wrangle for unrelated goodies to the cause in order to either buy votes or campaign donations.



Except right now Covid-19 has caused unprecedented financial ruin.  So it’s not at all like those other times.  

There was a bipartisan agreement.  Pelosi scuttled it at the last minute.  Those are the facts.


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## JimG. (Mar 23, 2020)

Wouldn't it suck if ski areas did go bankrupt?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> BD, it is my simple observation that you have been duping all sorts of right wing pablum on this forum for years, from dubious economical pronouncements to defending opprobrious "gun rights" positions and passing them off as based in facts and science. And that's all good - forums are for opinions, right?
> 
> You're also the biggest climate change denier on this forum and that's what I find most objectionable since that can actually be harmful. And your position in defense of this just simply: "prove it". I don't have to. Your posts speak for themselves.  I'm not about to waste my time combing through your posts - I actually have a rather interesting book I'll be getting back to so I'll decline your invitation for this fool's errand.



Translation: I can’t find anything you posted that is factually inaccurate.

I don’t agree with BG on climate change, but this thread hasn’t been about that, so your falling back on that is some serious weak sauce.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Wouldn't it suck if ski areas did go bankrupt?



Some will.  Trust me.


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## JimG. (Mar 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Some will.  Trust me.



I have no doubt. 

In some ways the megapass trend may wind up saving a bunch of ski areas. How ironic given my past opposition!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> BD, it is my simple observation that you have been duping all sorts of right wing pablum on this forum for years, from dubious economical pronouncements to defending opprobrious "gun rights" positions and passing them off as based in facts and science. And that's all good - forums are for opinions, right?
> 
> You're also the biggest climate change denier on this forum and that's what I find most objectionable since that can actually be harmful. And your position in defense of this just simply: "prove it". I don't have to. Your posts speak for themselves.  I'm not about to waste my time combing through your posts - I actually have a rather interesting book I'll be getting back to so I'll decline your invitation for this fool's errand.



SHORT VERSION:   You've got nothing.

Thanks, just wanted to call you out on it and prove it.


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## JimG. (Mar 23, 2020)

Whoa ducking punches here.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Many more important things about this shut down to discuss such as
> 
> View attachment 26623



Hey, as long as some states are deeming it "essential"... 

:beer:


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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

Seriously, can mods please close these threads? This politics crap never turns out well.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> Seriously, can mods please close these threads? This politics crap never turns out well.



Then don’t read it.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Then don’t read it.



I mean, if ya'll wanna fight ok. I just don't see the point. Nobody is convincing anyone of anything.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 23, 2020)

Not like there is going to be much of anything ski-related to talk about for quite a while.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 23, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Not like there is going to be much of anything ski-related to talk about for quite a while.



Yeah but anything but politics. 

Life is too short to spend so much of it angry at one another.

How about we talk about what we've been cooking?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

OMG I have to post one more Democrat last minute Coronavirus bill scam, because it's just too good.

$35 MILLION for the performing arts.   Because tap-dancing & jazz kills the coronavirus!!!   


You cant make this **** up!!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2020)

Actually this entire tweet thread is amazing.  

The handouts which have nothing to do with fighting coranavirus or saving American's jobs never ends.

Highly recommend you click and peruse this link.  You'll either laugh your ass off or throw-up.

https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1242214528642879497


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## Not Sure (Mar 24, 2020)

Rowsdower said:


> . Nobody is convincing anyone of anything.



Maybe not in this thread but this roadblock has been noticed by everyone on both sides. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3fJcdYFbc0


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Then don’t read it.


Million other places to talk about it on the internet including some other ski forums. People can go there if it's really that important to them to belt out opinions that ultimately few care about and rarely change anyone elses mind.

We've always had a no politics rule on AZ. We let things slide, but some folks eventually screw it up and it devolves into people flaming one another.  I've got far better things to do with my time than moderate out the latter; like watch paint dry. 

enough


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