# Jay this weekend



## camberstick (Mar 17, 2017)

Rolling in for a much needed long weekend tonight,  I know that it will be crowded . Was wondering if I should think about using the reciprocity of the ticket with burke  one day .thoughts? Never been there ,is it worth the drive over?


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## 56fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Saturday's pretty busy at JP......Burke worth the drive. Esp if you like ripping groomers.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 17, 2017)

Burke has some great glades if they are in play.  


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## camberstick (Mar 17, 2017)

Heard they have good glades. We'll be in the trees  either way! Does Burke get busy on the weekend or not really?


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## billski (Mar 17, 2017)

camberstick said:


> Heard they have good glades. We'll be in the trees  either way! Does Burke get busy on the weekend or not really?


Not.compared'to.JP


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2017)

I'm going to burke tomorrow specifically to avoid the crowds at jay, smuggs, Stowe, bush. 

then waking early Sunday to hit magic on my way home, which I anticipate being pretty crowded, but nothing compared to k, Stratton, okemo, snow


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## chuckstah (Mar 17, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I'm going to burke tomorrow specifically to avoid the crowds at jay, smuggs, Stowe, bush.
> 
> then waking early Sunday to hit magic on my way home, which I anticipate being pretty crowded, but nothing compared to k, Stratton, okemo, snow


Both lifts are running at Magic tomorrow, and I'd assume Sunday as well. Crowds shouldn't be much of an issue Sunday. Ssturday may be a different story with the Ski the East event on Black Magic.  Its skiing great today. 

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## rocks860 (Mar 18, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> Both lifts are running at Magic tomorrow, and I'd assume Sunday as well. Crowds shouldn't be much of an issue Sunday. Ssturday may be a different story with the Ski the East event on Black Magic.  Its skiing great today.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app



Drove by magic to take a looks and it looked pretty crowded in the lot but other than the competition the hill didn't look too packed 


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2017)

Curious whether Jay Peak was actually crowded this weekend as guessed in this thread, or whether people have moved on to non-skiing activities?   

Whiteface was a ghost-town all weekend even with perfect weather which is why I'm curious.  Doubt I waited more than 3 minutes in a line either day.


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## xwhaler (Mar 20, 2017)

One of the busiest days of the season yesterday at Ragged FWIW


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Curious whether Jay Peak was actually crowded this weekend as guessed in this thread, or whether people have moved on to non-skiing activities?
> 
> Whiteface was a ghost-town all weekend even with perfect weather which is why I'm curious.  Doubt I waited more than 3 minutes in a line either day.



Wow...Sugarbush was packed. I wonder why Whiteface didn't see an increase in skiers due to the storm.


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## gnardawg (Mar 20, 2017)

I was at Jay on Saturday - went on a bus trip - it was pretty crowded but a lot less than I was expecting. 

Got on the flyer quad around 945 - line looked long but took about 10 min - think it was pretty much that amount of time all day. 

Jet and Bonnie also less than 10 min every time I was in line. 

The Tram was well over an hour at some points I heard so I only rode it once. I got in line at 2:20 and got on the tram ~3. 




BenedictGomez said:


> Curious whether Jay Peak was actually crowded this weekend as guessed in this thread, or whether people have moved on to non-skiing activities?
> 
> Whiteface was a ghost-town all weekend even with perfect weather which is why I'm curious.  Doubt I waited more than 3 minutes in a line either day.


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## mriceyman (Mar 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Wow...Sugarbush was packed. I wonder why Whiteface didn't see an increase in skiers due to the storm.



Whiteface is never crowded


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Whiteface is never crowded



It can be on holidays, but I figured with a near record-breaking storm it wouldn't be ski-on all weekend.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 20, 2017)

An hour line for the tram is pretty bad. Luckily the crowds should start thinning out even on weekends pretty soon. IMO corn/spring snow are good conditions to ski terrain off the ridge anyway.

I probably take an average of less than 1 tram ride per trip to Jay Peak. Too much good stuff available without the tram to endure the wait.

My dream for Jay Peak is they get rid of the stupid tram and put a double chair in starting at the bottom of the Face Chutes.


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Whiteface is never crowded



I was there on "normal" weekends in the past and would agree it certainly wasn't crowded, but also wouldn't describe it as a ghost-town as BG said. So this weekend I would have expected it to be at least the same level as what I experienced previously and not ski-on all day.



BenedictGomez said:


> It can be on holidays, but I figured with a near record-breaking storm it wouldn't be ski-on all weekend.



Agreed. That still seems strange even if the place doesn't normally see crowds. Many areas saw holiday-like crowds this weekend.  You had a huge storm combined with near perfect weekend weather forecasts after a few weeks of sub-par conditions and/or weather so I would have expected there to be some pent up demand.


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## mriceyman (Mar 20, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> It can be on holidays, but I figured with a near record-breaking storm it wouldn't be ski-on all weekend.



Maybe a little busy but never truly crowded(i guess compared to vt areas on holidays) ive been at wf probably 6-7 times over different holiday periods and its never more than a busy day. Crowds never too big and lines always manageable. 


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I probably take an average of less than 1 tram ride per trip to Jay Peak. Too much good stuff available without the tram to endure the wait.



Way more than me.  I think the last time I rode the Jay Peak tram was probably early 2015.  All it does is eat away your ski day, and I'm more than happy to allow all the people with rental equipment to clog that line.  

It's even worse now that they have to run it with......what is it, 20% less capacity I think than ever before?


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 20, 2017)

If I went to Jay Peak more often peak season as opposed to late season the number of tram rides would be much closer to zero.


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## gnardawg (Mar 20, 2017)

I agree the past few times I've been to Jay I don't think I rode the tram at all. We only rode it because someone told us that Valhalla was still chock full of snow and it would be worth the time. (IT WAS!) It was weird waiting in line - I saw 2 separate groups of non-skiers waiting to head up the Tram. One group got on with us and they just took the ride to the top and didn't even get out of the Tram. Just rode it back down.


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## camberstick (Mar 20, 2017)

Saturday was crazy,  tram was over a hour wait


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2017)

Wow, that sounds nuts.  Mount Snow Saturday was busy, but not unmanageable.


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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I probably take an average of less than 1 tram ride per trip to Jay Peak. Too much good stuff available without the tram to endure the wait.



I have 34 ski days at Jay Peak this year, yet only took the tram 3 times.  Yesterday mid to late afternoon, there was no line for the flyer (none, zero wait), and it was still a solid 45 minutes wait for the Tram.    The things that kills me is that 95% of those people will ski down Vermonter or Northway.   So dumb.   A few years ago, there was little to no line for the Tram early morning or late during the days.   These days are apparently gone, a combination of the reduced capacity and increased number of skiers.

BG: Tram operates at 66% percent of capacity currently (40 instead of 60).  And AFAIK, it will stay like this even after the maintenance.  Apparently, they have always mistakingly operated too heavy.   Good thing there's a safety factor into this...

Note: I have nonetheless skied the ridge a dozen times, by either skinning or walking up on days with no trams, or before opening.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2017)

I hate the tram.  Let me repeat.  I hate the tram.

But if I am going to be riding the tram, I'd much rather be in the tram with 40 people rather than 60.

With these repairs, they are spending a TON of money for an uphill capacity of 240 per hour or so.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I hate the tram.  Let me repeat.  I hate the tram.
> 
> But if I am going to be riding the tram, I'd much rather be in the tram with 40 people rather than 60.
> 
> With these repairs, they are spending a TON of money for an uphill capacity of 240 per hour or so.


Yeah, that really makes no sense.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 20, 2017)

The Tram is a white elephant.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> BG: Tram operates at 66% percent of capacity currently (40 instead of 60).



Not good.   At any rate, it obviously explains why the tram lines are even worse this year.  

Funny thing is, very few even seem to know about this issue.  I've probably volunteered the info about the reduced rate to a half-dozen strangers commenting about the long tram line this season, and not a single one of them was aware.  Small sample obviously, but my perception is that virtually nobody noticed from season-to-season there's fewer people in the car this year.



VTKilarney said:


> With these repairs, they are spending a TON of money for an uphill capacity of 240 per hour or so.



It's financially nonsensical, but the operator is only interested in keeping the lights on, not resort efficiency.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 20, 2017)

People who ride the tram for anything other than the face, tuckerman, green beret, or valhalla are dummies

Burke and Magic were both ski on most of the day.

First time to burke in over 10 years and I will be back. Great skiing all over the left side of the map.

Collonade Inn in Lyndon is cheap and very very nice.


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## dlague (Mar 20, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> People who ride the tram for anything other than the face, tuckerman, green beret, or valhalla are dummies
> 
> Burke and Magic were both ski on most of the day.
> 
> ...



Agreed!  Never really found too much value in taking the tram.!


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## 56fish (Mar 21, 2017)

Bluebird yesterday - Tram waits less than 15 minutes.

Can't believe how many intelligent members don't get the value of the Tram.  The wide-eyed wonder of those 6 to 60 years old, first time riders is what it's all about!  An elderly woman naming all the gorgeous vistas from the top to her out-of-town friends - is what it's about!  Who knows how many 5+ figure weddings are booked due to photo - ops of mountain top wedding parties...get my drift?

JPR mgmt gets it.  Experiences are the product folks are buying.  Anyone who thinks users of the Face _terrain _are filling the hotel, parking lots, F&B outlets is delusional.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2017)

56fish said:


> Can't believe how many intelligent members don't get the value of the Tram.  Experiences are the product folks are buying.


When the majority of the skiers are there, the experience is an frustratingly long wait.  It's also the experience of being jammed up against a sweaty stranger.


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## fbrissette (Mar 21, 2017)

56fish said:


> Bluebird yesterday - Tram waits less than 15 minutes.



On a Monday with all other lifts likely empty.


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## 56fish (Mar 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> When the majority of the skiers are there, the experience is an frustratingly long wait.  It's also the experience of being jammed up against a sweaty stranger.



Kinda like the million+ in Times Square.....you can tell all your friends who _weren't _there.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 21, 2017)

I like riding the Tram and enjoy the terrain up there.  Waiting for the Tram sucks no matter what way you cut it.


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## fbrissette (Mar 21, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I like riding the Tram and enjoy the terrain up there.



Most of us do.  What's beyond me is why anyone would wait an hour to ski an extra 100m vertical especially when the really cool stuff boils down to 5 turns on Face Chute, 3 on Green Beret and about 15 on Pumphouse.

And for the life of me, I cannot understand waiting an hour so ski Northway or Vermonter unless you like skiing half days and are happy with 6 runs per day.

I'm willing to wait one tram (10 minutes) if the conditions are good up there and that's it.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 21, 2017)

Those 15 turns on Pumphouse are a nice way to end the season though, or any spring day when you're thinking "One more run..."


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## fbrissette (Mar 21, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Those 15 turns on Pumphouse are a nice way to end the season though, or any spring day when you're thinking "One more run..."



Indeed.  However, with a one-hour wait, I'll go for 4 extra runs on the flyer instead, or walk 15 minutes.  There is no justification for the hour-long wait unless you're a tourist or a lazy skier.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 21, 2017)

With a line that long they should give you electronic buzzer pucks so you can go have a couple drinks at the bar and be alerted when it's your turn to take the tram.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 21, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Most of us do.  What's beyond me is why anyone would wait an hour to ski an extra 100m vertical especially when the really cool stuff boils down to 5 turns on Face Chute, 3 on Green Beret and about 15 on Pumphouse.
> 
> And for the life of me, I cannot understand waiting an hour so ski Northway or Vermonter unless you like skiing half days and are happy with 6 runs per day.
> 
> I'm willing to wait one tram (10 minutes) if the conditions are good up there and that's it.





fbrissette said:


> Indeed.  However, with a one-hour wait, I'll go for 4 extra runs on the flyer instead, or walk 15 minutes.  There is no justification for the hour-long wait unless you're a tourist or a lazy skier.


Agreed, 1 tram is all I'd wait also.  I've never had to wait longer actually, but I don't tend to hit Jay during the heart of the season.  The only times I have gone is either early in the season or late.

That said, I'm also not walking up there instead of waiting for the Tram... unless I was there and it was absolutely dumping with lifts closed and I had to walk to get the goods.


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## fbrissette (Mar 21, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> With a line that long they should give you electronic buzzer pucks so you can go have a couple drinks at the bar and be alerted when it's your turn to take the tram.



That would work.  Or they'll come up instead with a fastpass system where you pay more for a shorter line.  Or get faster access if you book a hotel room package.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2017)

56fish said:


> Can't believe how many intelligent members don't get the value of the Tram.  The wide-eyed wonder of those 6 to 60 years old, first time riders is what it's all about!  *An elderly woman naming all the gorgeous vistas from the top to her out-of-town friends - is what it's about!  *Who knows how many 5+ figure weddings are booked due to *photo - ops of mountain top* wedding parties...*get my drift?*



How badly does that view deteriorate if you take a high speed quad and then a fixed grip double to the top?



VTKilarney said:


> When the majority of the skiers are there, the experience is an frustratingly long wait.  *It's also the experience of being jammed up against a sweaty stranger.*



That's what enduring lifetime memories are made of!  You obviously just don't get it.  I bet you don't even appreciate standing in ski boots for over an hour.  Come to think of it, you should probably quit skiing altogether.



fbrissette said:


> *On a Monday with all other lifts likely empty.*



THIS.  

Ski on.   I wasn't even there, but I know, this; precisely, this.



fbrissette said:


> *What's beyond me is why anyone would wait an hour to ski an extra 100m vertical *especially when the really cool stuff boils down to 5 turns on Face Chute, 3 on Green Beret and about 15 on Pumphouse.
> 
> And for the life of me, I cannot understand waiting an hour so ski Northway or Vermonter unless you like skiing half days and are happy with 6 runs per day.



Apparently it has to do with weddings, and old ladies naming random mountain peaks in southern Quebec.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2017)

Step #1 when discussing "novelty" type lifts.....

One must remember that the typical AZ poster is far from the typical skier and only represents an incredibly small percentage of a ski areas business, so what makes sense to an AZ poster, may very well make no sense whatsoever to the countless number of masses who actually do comprise a ski areas annual total customer visits during all 4 seasons.....

Step #2 - see step #1


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## fbrissette (Mar 21, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Step #1 when discussing "novelty" type lifts.....
> 
> One must remember that the typical AZ poster is far from the typical skier and only represents an incredibly small percentage of a ski areas business, so what makes sense to an AZ poster, may very well make no sense whatsoever to the countless number of masses who actually do comprise a ski areas annual total customer visits during all 4 seasons.....
> 
> Step #2 - see step #1



I'm not questioning Jay Peak motives.  I'm questioning skiers who wait in line for one hour.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 21, 2017)

I don't get up to Jay as much as I'd like, so I'm a bit more inclined to wait in a line for the tram than I would for most other lifts. The terrain off the top is unique relative to other lift serviced terrain elsewhere.  On New Year's Day a friend and I waited for perhaps 30-45.  At the top, he and I were the only ones to head into the face chutes.   Everyone else headed for one of the groomers...  

It was a memorable run, so for me it was worth a bit of extra time.  


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## tumbler (Mar 21, 2017)

was at Snowbird and the Tram line was out the door into the courtyard but the Peruvian was ski on.  Take the tunnel into Mineral Basin and you have all the terrain the tram accesses.  It's like a moth to flame.


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## mriceyman (Mar 21, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Yeah, that really makes no sense.



More for the summer clients.. good selling point.. for the hardcore skiers its pretty much a waste


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## snoseek (Mar 21, 2017)

I'm thinking about going up tomorrow? Did anyone ski today? Snow still decent?


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2017)

As I've noted before, there is not much terrain acreage served by the tram. And most of that terrain is steep. The traffic limiting effect of the tram helps preserve the surface conditions on a lot of that expert terrain so that it isn't tracked out in a half hour.

On another note I made three runs with Kingdom-Tele somewhere near Jay Peak on Saturday. We never touched a lift and it was glorious  .


















.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 21, 2017)

no snow left up there, huh


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Step #1 when discussing "novelty" type lifts.....
> 
> One must remember that the typical AZ poster is far from the typical skier and only represents an incredibly small percentage of a ski areas business, so what makes sense to an AZ poster, may very well make no sense whatsoever to the countless number of masses who actually do comprise a ski areas annual total customer visits during all 4 seasons.....
> 
> Step #2 - see step #1



Lol .... when I rode the tram at Cannon in august a long time ago I had a chat with the "operator ?" He said the tram gets more use in the summer than winter. I imagine the same is true for jay? The fact that it's there is a "coincidence" ( can't think of another description) in ski season. I can understand a first timer or fair weather skier wanting to pose for a selfie taking the tram but wasting an hour to a dedicated skier is unfathomable. I place myself in the latter as well but if there not standing in front of you in another lift line there's a silver lining.


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## 56fish (Mar 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> How badly does that view deteriorate if you take a high speed quad and then a fixed grip double to the top?



It doesn't.....odds of a new chair at JP?  Tram sells weddings, Porsche, etc...  As usual, I do agree w most (98+%) of your observations  :beer:


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## snoseek (Mar 21, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> As I've noted before, there is not much terrain acreage served by the tram. And most of that terrain is steep. The traffic limiting effect of the tram helps preserve the surface conditions on a lot of that expert terrain so that it isn't tracked out in a half hour.
> 
> On another note I made three runs with Kingdom-Tele somewhere near Jay Peak on Saturday. We never touched a lift and it was glorious  .
> 
> ...




All those pics are awesome but that third photo is glorious!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> As I've noted before,* there is not much terrain acreage served by the tram. And most of that terrain is steep. The traffic limiting effect of the tram helps preserve the surface conditions on a lot of that expert terrain *so that it isn't tracked out in a half hour.



What a revolutionary concept in terrain preservation!

Create lift access that sucks so bad that expert skiers wont even bother skiing the expert terrain.  Why, it's genius I tell you!

And new for 2016-2017 the "improved" tram is now 34% worse than _ever_ before, so WOW, that snow must be amazing up there***. 


*** I wouldn't know.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2017)

I'm having a difficult time understanding why non-expert skiers wait in that line for the tram just to ski a couple blue trails along the ridge. Ideally the primary people that *should* be using the tram are people that want to ski the expert trails up there. If that was the case, the line would be pretty short since it seems most people that currently use it are skiing the blues from what's being said here. Eliminate those people and you have little to no lines...(in theory)


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## deadheadskier (Mar 21, 2017)

Probably just the simple desire most folks have to visit the Summit of a mountain.  

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> *I'm having a difficult time understanding why non-expert skiers wait in that line for the tram just to ski a couple blue trails along the ridge.*



I've asked myself this 1000 times.

If you've never been to Jay Peak and you want the photo-op, once, I get it.  Other than that, it baffles me.   

And it's not even as if those intermediate segments up there are interesting or unique in any way, shape, or form.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

Looks like we are having another debate about the values of the Tram.  I think the only thing that would help is if Steve W could weigh in on the issue.  I imagine, again, that the benefits for them are advertising (only one of two Trams in New England), the ability to use it for off-season business (I have heard from multiple folks at resorts that non-skiers just don't do chairlifts because of fear of heights and lack of familiarity), and to deliver the full 2,100 vertical feet in one run as well as the ability to give skiers and riders full access to most of the resort from one lift are benefits that outweigh the inconvenience and costs.  

Of course from a purely skier-moving perspective it is obsolete.  If that were the primary focus then indeed having a double reinstalled to the top would be a good idea.  I imagine that the limited terrain cannot handle any more skiers or riders.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2017)

The harsh reality is, they have absolutely no choice in the matter anyway, even if they did want to modernize.  It would take someone well-capitalized like SNOW or MTN to get rid of it and replace it with a better and more efficient option.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> and to deliver the full 2,100 vertical feet in one run


Except that Jay doesn't have 2,100 vertical.  The tram isn't even 2,000 feet worth of vertical.  But your point is well taken.  I can understand doing it once if the line is no more than 15 or 20 minutes.   But that's all I could see.

I suppose it made sense for weddings because it was already there. But investing MILLIONS to repair the tram for a few weddings each year?  That's absolute madness.  

Cannon's tram is much busier than Jay's in the summer because it is in a much more touristed area.  Not many busses are coming to the Jay tram.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What a revolutionary concept in terrain preservation!
> 
> Create lift access that sucks so bad that expert skiers wont even bother skiing the expert terrain.  Why, it's genius I tell you!
> 
> ...








Who says expert skiers don't use the tram? And there are plenty of lifts out there that are purposely low capacity to limit the amount of people skiing the terrain. Some here may be familiar with a few of them: MRG single chair, Castlerock double, the Madonna Double. Sure those are chairs but each one of them are the only way to get to entire trail pods/mountain peaks that contain A LOT more terrain than what is found at the summit of Jay. Additionally, each of the resorts that is home to those lifts listed above has had the opportunity to replace the old low capacity chairlifts with something higher capacity and chose not to*. One of the MAJOR reasons behind the decision to stay low capacity was snow preservation.

*Although there is still talk the Madonna Double may get replaced at some point.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 22, 2017)

So is the Tram's water tank the ONLY possible way to get water up to the lodge?


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

I use the tram when there is less than a 10 minute wait (1 tram), which means that I very rarely use it nowadays.  I really enjoy the terrain up there but there is no justification for the wait.    When I back-country ski out West, a typical climb is anywhere from 2 to 4 hours.  Why am I doing this ?   Because the ensuing run is going to be as good as sex.  

What do I get out of that one hour tram wait ?  Not much.  To me, the terrain is worth a 10 minutes wait.  It'll be worth a climb up or a skin on a tram-down day when the snow is good.  

Expert skiers definitely use the Tram even when there is a 60 minutes wait.  For the heck of me I don't understand why.   If there is someone on this board who waits one hour for the tram, I'd like to know why.

As to Madonna, you can't compare a 1200 skiers/hour lift to the currently 240 skiers/hour tram.  Smuggs is not limiting skier capacity, they just don't appear to have the money to upgrade anything.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

Hour wait for the tram > 1.25 skin to the summit.  Also access to Big Jay.

Optional approach = ride the Flyer and skin up from there.


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hour wait for the tram > 1.25 skin to the summit.  Also access to Big Jay.
> 
> Optional approach = ride the Flyer and skin up from there.



Alternatively, from the Tram, 15 minutes walk up.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> As to Madonna, you can't compare a 1200 skiers/hour lift to the currently 240 skiers/hour tram.



Why not? 
I mapped it out. The Tram exclusively accesses 73 total acres of terrain. Madonna 1 exclusively accesses 435 total acres (obviously some amount of that acreage is unskiable at both resorts). That works out to 240/73=3.2 skiers per acre-hour at the peak of Jay and 1200/435=2.75 skiers per acre-hour at Smuggs. Why isn't there a bigger outcry to upgrade the Madonna 1 lift!



> Smuggs is not limiting skier capacity, they just don't appear to have the money to upgrade anything.



Apparently they don't know how to run a resort if they can't figure out that the double is too slow and the lines too long and it is costing them money.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 22, 2017)

I made the drive up from Warren on Sunday to Jay -- so glad I did. Even tracked out a lot of the woods are really fun, and there was a much better base, even lower elevation. One question, though, since I don't remember this from previous visit -- do the lifts stop that often on a "normal" day. I counted two rides up where the lift didn't stop at least once, often for 20-30 seconds at a time.


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I made the drive up from Warren on Sunday to Jay -- so glad I did. Even tracked out a lot of the woods are really fun, and there was a much better base, even lower elevation. One question, though, since I don't remember this from previous visit -- do the lifts stop that often on a "normal" day. I counted two rides up where the lift didn't stop at least once, often for 20-30 seconds at a time.



Somehow it's been worse this year.   Last week-end was the tail end of the Ontario school break, so lots of once-a-year beginner skiers.  In addition, they are enforcing the 'backpack on your lap' rule more severely and I've seen them stop the chair twice to force skiers to remove their backpacks.  Not if this explains a large percentage of the stoppage.

I'd be curious as to the origin of this backpack rule.   There is no such thing in Canada (well at least in Quebec and BC where I have skied this year).


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> And there are plenty of lifts out there that are purposely low capacity to limit the amount of people skiing the terrain. Some here may be familiar with a few of them: MRG single chair, Castlerock double, the Madonna Double.



Lets take these in order:

*MRG single chair *- I haven't skied MRG enough to have an informed opinion, but my _guess_ is it's (thankfully) more about history than math.  I don't think a double would destroy the terrain.  That's still a relatively small number of folks even if you double it.  

*Castlerock double* - I've never been to Sugarbush when there's a massive live at Castlerock.  Perhaps this is only a powder day thing?  So in my limited experience, putting a quad at Castlerock would seem to be a waste of money as the double seems fine AFAIK.

*Madonna Double *- This one is oft-repeated and total BS.  There is a lot of terrain off Madonna and a quad would not ruin conditions.  At all.  Period.  I'm adamant about this.  Madonna has more "choose your own adventure" intermediate routes down than most places.  It's just an excuse because Smuggler's Notch doesn't spend money.  Their apres-ski entertainment still consists of free hot cocoa, pilly mascots, a magician show, and a dark 1960s bingo hall.  I do enjoy the cocoa though.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> In addition, they are enforcing the 'backpack on your lap' rule more severely and I've seen them stop the chair twice to force skiers to remove their backpacks.  Not if this explains a large percentage of the stoppage.
> 
> I'd be curious as to the origin of this backpack rule.   There is no such thing in Canada (well at least in Quebec and BC where I have skied this year).



My girlfriend skis with one of those little camelpacks, which is like a very small backpack, but JP considers it like it's a full pack and makes her take it off (no other area does so). I cant recall JP ever making her take it off before, but they started to about 2 months ago. 

Perhaps it started after this highly-publicized incident?  The timeframe seems about right.

http://fox13now.com/2017/01/05/expe...kiers-get-stuck-hanging-from-backpack-straps/

Personally I bet there's more danger from people dropping backpacks from 60 feet off the Flyer than there is of a freak incident like this.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> My girlfriend skis with one of those little camelpacks, which is like a very small backpack, but JP considers it like it's a full pack and makes her take it off (no other area does so). I cant recall JP ever making her take it off before, but they started to about 2 months ago.
> 
> Perhaps it started after this highly-publicized incident?  The timeframe seems about right.
> 
> ...



There are signs all over the place in Switzerland that say one has to put your backpack on your lap.  Makes a lot of sense IMHO.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> There are signs all over the place in Switzerland that say one has to put your backpack on your lap.  Makes a lot of sense IMHO.



I'll be honest, since I started putting mine on my lap this year I would never go back to wearing it on the lift on my back. It is just so much more comfortable riding the chair with it on my lap.

Although at the same time, BG's argument about the small camelpack is a good one. I wouldn't personally consider those like full size backpacks and am not really sure I would force those to be on laps.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Lets take these in order:




Ok...

*MRG single chair *- I haven't skied MRG enough to have an informed opinion, but my _guess_ is it's (thankfully) more about history than math.  I don't think a double would destroy the terrain.  That's still a relatively small number of folks even if you double it. 

Tell that to the people who voted to restore the single chair vs install something with higher capacity. They like the very low skier density. Historical value was also a big component in the decision. 

*Castlerock double* - I've never been to Sugarbush when there's a massive live at Castlerock.  Perhaps this is only a powder day thing?  So in my limited experience, putting a quad at Castlerock would seem to be a waste of money as the double seems fine AFAIK.

The lines at Castlerock can get very long when the snow is good. When the snow is poor, most skiers don't bother with that pod. Granted the Tram line is still pretty long even when there isn't fresh snow. The expert skiers that are after the fresh lines off the ridge during fresh conditions are replaced by the intermediates that just want to say they have cruised off of the summit.

*Madonna Double *- This one is oft-repeated and total BS.  There is a lot of terrain off Madonna and a quad would not ruin conditions.  At all.  Period.  I'm adamant about this.  Madonna has more "choose your own adventure" intermediate routes down than most places.  It's just an excuse because Smuggler's Notch doesn't spend money.  Their apres-ski entertainment still consists of free hot cocoa, pilly mascots, a magician show, and a dark 1960s bingo hall.  I do enjoy the cocoa though.

Again I'm not arguing that Madonna couldn't support a higher capacity lift. Again compared to the acreage of terrain accessed by the Tram, there is a HUGE amount of terrain to choose from off of the Madonna 1 double. I'm sure there are a lot of Smuggs locals that do like the limited capacity since it keeps the traffic down and the "secret" spots don't get pressured as hard. *To me it seems there should be a bigger argument about replacing the inefficient Madonna 1 lift vs the Jay Peak Tram*.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 22, 2017)

Elements of brand identity, summer biz, conferences, weddings, etc all played into the decision to upgrade the Tram.  Key factor in my mind, however, (along with, without question, the Receivership situation) has to do with the capacity for the top of the mountain to hold more people and the cost/lack of benefit to install a different type of equipment such as a gondola that would, by default, operate at about the same capacity.  

  It boils down this way………...At its former peak capacity, the tram operated at about 600 persons per hour, although lately it has been running at around 350 pph.  The summit has limited space for skiers/riders to stage once they exit the tram and there are only two major ways down, Vermonter and Northway. If we were to add significantly to the uphill capacity to the summit we would have significant congestion at the summit itself and the density of people on Vermonter, Northway, and in the glades would become intolerable.  


  A gondola or a detachable chair could operate at full capacity in the range of 2,400 – 3,600 pph, but we could, of course, operate a new lift at any capacity we choose, based on placing a fewer number of carriers on the line.  I figure the optimum uphill capacity based on available terrain is in the range of 500 – 800 pph.  When the tram is repaired it will operate at just over 500 pph.  All this being said, it doesn’t make sense to spend $8M - $12M (which is an appropriate estimated range given the number of unknowns that we would encounter and some tire kicking we actually did) on a new lift that operates at or slightly above the capacity of the tram.  Add back into the equation the iconic value of the tram and I feel the $6M was the best deal we could make.  I'm sure others feel differently and I guess that's part of the fun of quarterbacking from a more comfortable position.  I get it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2017)

Quick question - does anyone know why the old Skyline Double was removed?  It appears it ran for several years in conjunction with the Tram.  It was removed in the 70s after not that long of service.

Did it not operate enough because of wind?

Was it determined back then that it caused too much crowding at the summit?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Quick question -* does anyone know why the old Skyline Double was removed?*



I was going to ask the same question.

  If the short double still existed, I would ski the summit at least occasionally.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

As always, thank you Steve. Good to have the thought process from the source. Hopefully now the completely beaten dead horse can rest in peace!


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hopefully now the completely beaten dead horse can rest in peace!



What would be the fun in that ?   Remains the question as to why so many seem to think that a 60 min wait is worth it, even though you can load the flyer in 5 minutes.  To me this is the puzzling one.  

On another note, I disagree with the capacity as quoted above.   The quoted former 600 pph capacity is based on an uphill time of 6 minutes.  At ten trips per hour with the former 60 people capacity you get to 600.  Truth is with loading and unloading Jay Peak roughly manages 1 tram every 10 minutes.   Loading efficiency in particular is not great.   That puts the former capacity at 360 pph and the current one at roughly 240 pph.  Doesn't change the rationale for keeping the Tram, which, as a four-season user, I fully support.


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## snoseek (Mar 22, 2017)

Finding some really nice deep snow up here today. Good times


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> What would be the fun in that ?   Remains the question as to why so many seem to think that a 60 min wait is worth it, even though you can load the flyer in 5 minutes.  To me this is the puzzling one.
> 
> On another note, I disagree with the capacity as quoted above.   The quoted former 600 pph capacity is based on an uphill time of 6 minutes.  At ten trips per hour with the former 60 people capacity you get to 600.  Truth is with loading and unloading Jay Peak roughly manages 1 tram every 10 minutes.   Loading efficiency in particular is not great.   That puts the former capacity at 360 pph and the current one at roughly 240 pph.  Doesn't change the rationale for keeping the Tram, which, as a four-season user, I fully support.



It also sounds like the cost of the alternative is just too much. I think people here see the multi million dollar price tag for the tram outfit and balk, but 8-12 million for a lift alternative is just ridiculous.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> What would be the fun in that ?   Remains the question as to why so many seem to think that a 60 min wait is worth it, even though you can load the flyer in 5 minutes.  To me this is the puzzling one.



That's the part that intrigues me more than the rationale to keep the tram. To use the Castlerock example someone else mentioned, if that line is long I will most likely not wait on it even if it is a powder day. I'd rather ski several runs off other lifts in the time it would take to wait in line at CR. I enjoy the CR terrain, but not enough to wait in line an hour. Although at least with CR you know everyone is waiting to ski expert terrain so I can understand the desire to wait for people that do. With the tram some of those people are waiting to ski blue routes which just baffles me completely.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 22, 2017)

I used to take the Tram as much as possible before I really knew the mountain, I thought it was cool and generally like to go to "the top".

Plan to be at Jay in a couple weekends and hope to take the Tram then as I like to ski Valhalla and Pumphouse especially in the spring. I'll wait until late in the day to do this probably.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

Jully said:


> It also sounds like the cost of the alternative is just too much. I think people here see the multi million dollar price tag for the tram outfit and balk, but 8-12 million for a lift alternative is just ridiculous.


Why?
If you take the low end of $8 M, that's only $2 M more than than the $6 M which was spent just on *repairs*.  Not a new lift, just repairs.

I have no idea what it generally costs in repairs from season-to-season or over the life of a lift, but I would randomly guess a Tram is more expensive to service over the life of the lift.  That could be wrong, but I heard about how big of a deal it was to get someone from Europe to come repair the Tram when that was all happening.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 22, 2017)

I was quoting an optimal scenario but, you're right, in practice, the load numbers are somewhat closer to your formula.  And you're right, the rationale stays more or less unchanged.



fbrissette said:


> What would be the fun in that ?   Remains the question as to why so many seem to think that a 60 min wait is worth it, even though you can load the flyer in 5 minutes.  To me this is the puzzling one.
> 
> On another note, I disagree with the capacity as quoted above.   The quoted former 600 pph capacity is based on an uphill time of 6 minutes.  At ten trips per hour with the former 60 people capacity you get to 600.  Truth is with loading and unloading Jay Peak roughly manages 1 tram every 10 minutes.   Loading efficiency in particular is not great.   That puts the former capacity at 360 pph and the current one at roughly 240 pph.  Doesn't change the rationale for keeping the Tram, which, as a four-season user, I fully support.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 22, 2017)

Right, if you take the lower number (and ignore the reality of being in Receivership which, as BG alluded to, doesn't exactly create an environment where incremental spending (without an roi) is the standard), you might be able to create some level of justification.  But investing multiple millions more in a lift that won't get you much more uphill capacity and will only save you a bit on repairs probably isn't a decision that even a well-capitalized resort owner/operator (of which there is roughly, one) would make.  I could be wrong though.




Jcb890 said:


> Why?
> If you take the low end of $8 M, that's only $2 M more than than the $6 M which was spent just on *repairs*.  Not a new lift, just repairs.
> 
> I have no idea what it generally costs in repairs from season-to-season or over the life of a lift, but I would randomly guess a Tram is more expensive to service over the life of the lift.  That could be wrong, but I heard about how big of a deal it was to get someone from Europe to come repair the Tram when that was all happening.


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## drjeff (Mar 22, 2017)

Steve@jpr said:


> Right, if you take the lower number (and ignore the reality of being in Receivership which, as BG alluded to, doesn't exactly create an environment where incremental spending (without an roi) is the standard), you might be able to create some level of justification.  But investing multiple millions more in a lift that won't get you much more uphill capacity and will only save you a bit on repairs probably isn't a decision that even a well-capitalized resort owner/operator (of which there is roughly, one) would make.  I could be wrong though.



This line hands down wins the ski based intra-web sense of reality award!!!  As it usually is, and has been for years when he opens his mouth and/or lets his fingers type away, Steve Wright is one incredibly straight shooter!  +100!!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

Jully said:


> I think people here see the multi million dollar price tag for the tram outfit and balk, but *8-12 million for a lift alternative is just ridiculous.*



Not sure how that number is ascertained, but I think it has to be assuming a gondola or a chondola, because quads dont cost even remotely close to that.  And even a quad plus a double (what I think would be the best solution were money not an object) I dont believe would even cost the low-end of that range.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> *Plan to be at Jay in a couple weekends and hope to take the Tram then as I like to ski Valhalla and Pumphouse especially in the spring.* I'll wait until late in the day to do this probably.



Me too!   Maybe it will all work out what with skier visits usually dropping pretty heavily by that time in the calendar.  If not, it's another ski season without a tram ride for me.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not sure how that number is ascertained, but I think it has to be assuming a gondola or a chondola, because quads dont cost even remotely close to that.  And even a quad plus a double (what I think would be the best solution were money not an object) I dont believe would even cost the low-end of that range.



Most recent HSQ installations of that length in New England have been around $6M.  Some of the fancy bubble six packs $8M.  I could see the cost of removing the Tram being much more expensive than a typical lift bringing the cost of a quad well over $6M.  Substitute Gondola for Quad and $12M seems pretty inline with the price of lifts these days.  Hell the little Over Easy Gondola at Stowe cost $5.5M


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I could see *the cost of removing the Tram* being much more expensive than a typical lift bringing the cost of a quad well over $6M.



Yeah, I completely forgot about that (obvious) expense.    NESH has a page dedicated to lift prices for comparison's sake.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/lifts/listbycost.php


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Most recent HSQ installations of that length in New England have been around $6M.  Some of the fancy bubble six packs $8M.  I could see the cost of removing the Tram being much more expensive than a typical lift bringing the cost of a quad well over $6M.  Substitute Gondola for Quad and $12M seems pretty inline with the price of lifts these days.  Hell the little Over Easy Gondola at Stowe cost $5.5M



Agreed. Also the terrain at the summit is not exactly the same as the typical HOW's summit terminal. Is that worth an extra 3 or 4 million? Maybe. Coupled with removal and I think it makes a lot of sense.

I don't think a hsq to the top was ever in the running. Summer business and also I know many an average skier who gripes about how cold the flyer is.


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, I completely forgot about that (obvious) expense.    NESH has a page dedicated to lift prices for comparison's sake.
> 
> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/lifts/listbycost.php



I did not know the site had this!


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 22, 2017)

Steve@jpr said:


> It boils down this way………...At its former peak capacity, the tram operated at about 600 persons per hour, although lately it has been running at around 350 pph.  The summit has limited space for skiers/riders to stage once they exit the tram and there are only two major ways down, Vermonter and Northway. If we were to add significantly to the uphill capacity to the summit we would have significant congestion at the summit itself and the density of people on Vermonter, Northway, and in the glades would become intolerable.




I'm not in the "replace the tram camp", however it should be pointed out that although the tram delivers a relatively small amount of traffic to the summit, what it does do is deliver that traffic in chunks.  Yes, it's "busy" when everyone offloads and then puts their skis on, and subsequently skis down together on one of two trails.  A chairlift of similar hourly capacity would make the offloading and trail skiing experience less hectic, but I agree completely that it makes no sense to change what is already in place.  

I will be up this weekend, and I hope to find a manageable line for the tram once or twice.  If not, there is plenty of terrain to keep me and my kid entertained elsewhere!

Steve - do you have any insight into where spectators can view the freeride event?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Me too!   Maybe it will all work out what with skier visits usually dropping pretty heavily by that time in the calendar.  If not, it's another ski season without a tram ride for me.



Let me know if you guys want to meet for a few runs.   We could even hit Big Jay since I assume you will have an extra car.   Let's just  avoid the topic of climate change . If we ski at tunaspeed we can afford the 1-hour tram wait.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

Not to beat a dead horse or bring up a sore subject, but wouldn't a non-Tram lift also be less prone to wind holds?


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## gregnye (Mar 22, 2017)

I always find it weird how people on this site always complain about the tram at Jay, but never the tram at cannon. The Jay tram should never be replaced with another chair--it is truly iconic. That last part where it spans from the Bonnie Peak to the Summit without any towers couldn't possibly be like that with any other lift unless it was a funitel. Insert a chair lift in their and it would have more lift towers.

In fact the tram at Jay is more useful than the one at Cannon, at least during the winter. The one at Cannon is hard to get to (Who likes Banshee extension/Jaspers Hideaway/whatever other trails cannon keeps adding?), only really services DJ Tramline and Kinsman (rarely open), and doesn't span any large gaps. It could 100% just be a chairlift. The one at Jay is set up properly as a main, signature lift. If the bring back the short double from the flyer to the summit I'd be perfectly happy, but there is no need to replace the tram with a chair.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

gregnye said:


> If the bring back the short double from the flyer to the summit I'd be perfectly happy, but* there is no need to replace the tram with a chair*.



Well not anymore!  But back before they recently made the decision to spend millions of dollars to fix an outdated and inefficient relic with sub-optimal skier capacity there surely was.   That was the window-of-opportunity for the tram haters - sadly not to be.

I'd still love to see a short-double installed at some point in the future.  Probably will never happen, and certainly cant until the place gets back on its' feet.


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## dlague (Mar 22, 2017)

I do think a chair lift - does not have to be a HSQ - would make a world of difference.  Keep the tram as it has other uses 1) for those who want to take it to ski/snowboard and 2) those tourist that do not partake in downhill activities.

The lift could be a fixed grip with a low profile so windy days would allow for people to still make it up to the summit.  Then again Bonnie and Flyer would possibly be closed then too!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 22, 2017)

Two words: rope tow.


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Two words: rope tow.



I was going to say, a surface lift of some sort seems to be the way to go. 

A few years ago a T-Bar was supposed to be installed to the summit of SL imminently... sadly that never came to fruition.


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## dlague (Mar 22, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Two words: rope tow.



That would be one heck of a rope tow!  Right up face chutes!  Now THAT would be entertaining to watch.  

Steal Burkes Poma!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> That would be one heck of a rope tow!  Right up face chutes!  Now THAT would be entertaining to watch.
> 
> Steal Burkes Poma!



It would have to be between Tuckerman's chutes and Northway.. and hopefully not screw up Tuck chutes at all in the process. But yeah that would be entertaining, and definitely qualify as earning your turns.

It's a steep pitch though. Now I'm thinking Ski Train. With heated track so it doesn't get snowed in.


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## snoseek (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm here to say today at Jay Peak was a total sleeper day. I dare say they underreported as the trails were covered and the trees were skiing deep. That weird lap over to Beaver pond area from the Bonnie and back off metro was totally working for me. Place was empty as it was frigid. Glad I made the drive!


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## dlague (Mar 22, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> It would have to be between Tuckerman's chutes and Northway.. and hopefully not screw up Tuck chutes at all in the process. But yeah that would be entertaining, and definitely qualify as earning your turns.
> 
> It's a steep pitch though. Now I'm thinking Ski Train. With heated track so it doesn't get snowed in.



Catapult!  Better yet 4 person vacuum tube much like at a bank drive thru!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Let me know if you guys want to meet for a few runs.   We could even hit Big Jay since I assume you will have an extra car.   Let's just  avoid the topic of climate change . If we ski at tunaspeed we can afford the 1-hour tram wait.



I'm not 100% yet, depends on weather (and I'll probably do 1 day JP, 1 day Smuggs).



bdfreetuna said:


> Two words: rope tow.



Not possible.  Way too steep.


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## moresnow (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not possible.  Way too steep.



Up Tuckermans, or any place on the face is certainly too steep. Northway should be doable for a surface lift. Kicking Horse  has a surface lift with a real steep pitch. There is a rope to grab on the ground in case you fall and start to slide


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

moresnow said:


> Up Tuckermans, or any place on the face is certainly too steep. Northway should be doable for a surface lift. Kicking Horse  has a surface lift with a real steep pitch. There is a rope to grab on the ground in case you fall and start to slide



Northway is definitely OK for a lift.  But how are the bad skiers that wait for the tram for one hour going to go down ?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

So I feel badly for the poor guy who started this thread asking about skiing last weekend and got a thread debating the worth of the Tram.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2017)

At least we figured out that a poma lift up the face would solve all problems.

Man, I would definitely stand in line for one hour to ride that lift.


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## moresnow (Mar 23, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Northway is definitely OK for a lift.  But how are the bad skiers that wait for the tram for one hour going to go down ?


There will one blue from the top. Not worth doing. Don't bother.


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## camberstick (Mar 23, 2017)

Don't feel too bad, you guys are funny. The tram is what it is. My crew rode it once a day when the lines weren't too bad. Not worth the typical lines but the fresh left in Valhalla was pretty awesome.


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## dlague (Mar 23, 2017)

I find it interesting that Jay Peak reported 4-6 inches yesterday and 5-7 today yet I see nothing on the radar.


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## snoseek (Mar 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> I find it interesting that Jay Peak reported 4-6 inches yesterday and 5-7 today yet I see nothing on the radar.



I'm thinking that must have fell yesterday after the initial report because it skied way deeper that 5 inches


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## 56fish (Mar 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> I find it interesting that Jay Peak reported 4-6 inches yesterday and 5-7 today yet I see nothing on the radar.



Gotta be here to see it.


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## dlague (Mar 23, 2017)

Jay Cloud over performing!  I do think it is funny that all the snow they talk about yet never make it to mid May.  May 10th was the latest I skied there.


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> Jay Cloud over performing!  I do think it is funny that all the snow they talk about yet never make it to mid May.  May 10th was the latest I skied there.



In the North East, to make it to May, you depend almost exclusively on man-made snow.  While they blow a significant amount on the Jet, they are not in Killington's league.   The ESE exposition is not optimal either.

Jay Peak has quite consistently the most terrain open in April which is a better indicator of snow amounts.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> In the North East, to make it to May, you depend almost exclusively on man-made snow.  While they blow a significant amount on the Jet, they are not in Killington's league.   The ESE exposition is not optimal either.
> 
> Jay Peak has quite consistently the most terrain open in April which is a better indicator of snow amounts.



Sugarloaf generally is right there with them.  Obviously Sugarloaf gets a good deal less snow, but they preserve it better. Sugarloaf probably wins on acreage, Jay probably wins on percentage of terrain open.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

So looks like we have moved off the Tram and onto the next topic:  are Jay's snow reports accurate?    And the guy's trip to Jay has come and gone.  :lol:


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## MG Skier (Mar 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So looks like we have moved off the Tram and onto the next topic:  are Jay's snow reports accurate?



Well, my sources say there has been a TON of snow on the hill this year. Figures, spending most of the season injured on my end


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

MG Skier said:


> Well, my sources say there has been a TON of snow on the hill this year. Figures, spending most of the season injured on my end



Damn.  That sucks.


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## gregnye (Mar 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So looks like we have moved off the Tram and onto the next topic:  are Jay's snow reports accurate?    And the guy's trip to Jay has come and gone.  :lol:



Now we just need to talk about the West Bowl and the Bonnie high speed 6 upgrade!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

gregnye said:


> Now we just need to talk about the West Bowl and the Bonnie high speed 6 upgrade!



Those are Rounds 3 and 4 respectively.  Round 5 will be "Ariel Quiros: is he really the scumbag that we think he is?"


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Round 5 will be "Ariel Quiros: is he really the scumbag that we think he is?"


There is nothing to debate there.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2017)

gregnye said:


> Now we just need to talk about the West Bowl



I've got that covered with every post I make, regardless of the thread.


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## dlague (Mar 23, 2017)

gregnye said:


> Now we just need to talk about the West Bowl and the Bonnie high speed 6 upgrade!



Both of which will never happen!  Pipe dream like the lift to the summit - just to bring it back around!


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## xlr8r (Mar 24, 2017)

According to Lift Blog in the comments, it looks like a bunch of Riblet sheaves have arrived.   

https://liftblog.com/2017/03/22/news-roundup-25/#comments

The cheapest option to serve the summit would be to remove the Tram, and just build a double similar to the old Skyline chair but start it on the Northway saddle just below the end of the Bonnie quad, so it would run in alignment with the current Tram.  This chair would only cost a couple million probably, even cheaper if it was a used Riblet and could be super low capacity like Castlerock.  This would save 4+ million for cash strapped Jay. Metro and Freezer would then handle all traffic at Tramside, and you could easily access the summit from Stateside as well.  Care to comment on this Steve.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 24, 2017)

xlr8r said:


> According to Lift Blog in the comments, *it looks like a bunch of Riblet sheaves have arrived.   *



Definitely looks used.  

Could they actually be putting in the short double I've always wanted?   Probably not, but I can dream.


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## Jully (Mar 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Definitely looks used.
> 
> Could they actually be putting in the short double I've always wanted?   Probably not, but I can dream.



Very confusing as to why they brought in used sheaves then... May be for somewhere else or something else. Who knows.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 24, 2017)

Jully said:


> *Very confusing as to why they brought in used sheaves then*... May be for somewhere else or something else. Who knows.



Sadly now I'm wondering if it might have to do with this announcement on their web page.



> ***The Bonaventure Quad will be down until further notice.***


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## MG Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

Jully said:


> Very confusing as to why they brought in used sheaves then... May be for somewhere else or something else. Who knows.



Well, they are going to need some more parts.....interesting to say the least. A double a la the old Skyline would be interesting, would that go up the Poma Line trail to the summit or am I off a bit in my directions?


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 24, 2017)

Interesting...


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## MG Skier (Mar 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sadly now I'm wondering if it might have to do with this announcement on their web page.



Not the Bonnie, that doesnt sound good....I missed that post before I posted.


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## xlr8r (Mar 24, 2017)

But on the instagram post Steve mentions the Tram, no mention of the Bonnie


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2017)

I looked on the VT Act 250 webpage - no mention of approved or pending lift projects for Jay currently...

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## from_the_NEK (Mar 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sadly now I'm wondering if it might have to do with this announcement on their web page.





> ***The Bonaventure Quad will be down until further notice.***



Pretty unlikely that they would have lift components on a truck come in the day before a lift goes down. Although the Bonaventure lift does seem to have its share of problems. I think that is part of the reason they were planning on replacing it with the Powerline 6.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 24, 2017)

drjeff said:


> I looked on the VT Act 250 webpage - no mention of approved or pending lift projects for Jay currently...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



I looked too but found nothing new, just a few extensions for a couple projects.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 24, 2017)

Option 1:




Option 2 (please disregard the Powerline 6 chair in these renderings):




Option 3:


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 24, 2017)

Option 3 is the one I've envisioned as making the most sense.  You can get off the Flyer and get on the double if you so choose.  

Sort of like a (much, much, much) shorter version of Face chair to Summit lift at Whiteface in terms of the spacing, you get off one and right on another.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2017)

Whatever option is most protected from the wind would get my vote. I don't ski there enough to know the typical wind direction.  

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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2017)

The diagrams are back!  I love it!  :lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> *The diagrams are back!  I love it!*  :lol:



Of course the diagrams are back! Are we just going to lay down & die & accept that Jay Peak wont install a double to the top?  

*HELL NO. * 

Nothing is over until WE decide it is!!


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## Root16 (Mar 24, 2017)

I'm coming up from the Berskhires, Massachusetts to Jay Peak early tomorrow morning and am looking for someone to ski with. I'm an "advanced" skier and will be looking to get some early runs in in the trees, but sort of prefer not to ski alone.


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## Root16 (Mar 25, 2017)

Jay Peak was pretty phenomenal. I got on the lift at 8:36am and enjoyed about 6" of powder in the AM and the glades were great fun. The temps never softened the snow and the snow was powdery all the way to my last turn at 4:30pm. The snow is still 4' deep in spots in the glades, and only a very few well worn spots revealed stumps/sticks or other nasty things under the snow. Well worth the 8 hours in the car.


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## MG Skier (Mar 27, 2017)

Root16 said:


> Jay Peak was pretty phenomenal. I got on the lift at 8:36am and enjoyed about 6" of powder in the AM and the glades were great fun. The temps never softened the snow and the snow was powdery all the way to my last turn at 4:30pm. The snow is still 4' deep in spots in the glades, and only a very few well worn spots revealed stumps/sticks or other nasty things under the snow. Well worth the 8 hours in the car.



My buddy is up there for the season and he said this weekend was killer! I
 agree it is a long 4 hours up but usually worth it. Cue the self driving car.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 27, 2017)

Jay was really good yesterday.   Bluebird skies, zero wind, mild temps and mid-winter conditions.  


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## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 27, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Pretty unlikely that they would have lift components on a truck come in the day before a lift goes down. Although the Bonaventure lift does seem to have its share of problems. I think that is part of the reason they were planning on replacing it with the Powerline 6.




I was at jay Thurs- Sunday this weekend. As noted by others, the skiing was fantastic. The Bonnie shut down for about two hours on Friday, then ran till about noon on Saturday. Didn't run at all on Sunday and word on the street was that it is an electrical problem. There was no work activity around the lift on Sunday, so the "waiting for parts" theory is a good one. Probably coming from Switzerland.


Edit: And for you Tram-haters out there, put this run in your pipe and smoke it. Friday morning, my nephew and I got on the first tram, and even though we weren't first out the door, made it through the crowd and scored first run down the freshly groomed Vermonter. No stops till we got to Montrealer, high speed GS all the way. What a run! Having said that, we did not ride the tram again over the weekend. Too many people and both cars were loading 40 people.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 27, 2017)

I begrudgingly entered the line for the tram on Sunday because the guy I was skiing with had never been to Jay, and "wanted to do it" (as did both of our boys).  Once in line he had second thoughts after doing a rough count and realizing that only 40 at a time get on.  There was probably a 4 car wait outside of the building (I'm not sure how many were queued up inside).  He came to his senses and we bailed.  (Not to mention that their hope was to ski Vermonter!).  I'm sure the view with the bluebird sky was fantastic, but still not worth it.  


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## dlague (Mar 27, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> I begrudgingly entered the line for the tram on Sunday because the guy I was skiing with had never been to Jay, and "wanted to do it" (as did both of our boys).  Once in line he had second thoughts after doing a rough count and realizing that only 40 at a time get on.  There was probably a 4 car wait outside of the building (I'm not sure how many were queued up inside).  He came to his senses and we bailed.  (Not to mention that their hope was to ski Vermonter!).  I'm sure the view with the bluebird sky was fantastic, but still not worth it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I agree!  Ok for the views some times and some of the runs there but only on low volume days!


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