# RFID tickets



## bvibert (Jul 15, 2011)

I know a few ski areas around the NE have gone to RFID.  Has anyone here used them?  I really like the concept, but I haven't heard any first hand feedback?

Do you think areas that currently bar code scan tickets will start switching to RFID?  It seems a lot more efficient.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2011)

I used it at Zermatt in 2002  .  I've seen it at Squaw Valley and Alta.  It works pretty well overall and the gates do a nice job keeping the crowds moving along.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2011)

I know Jay used it this season.  I saw that, like other places, they charged you for the card that you could reload and reuse.  I'm not sure how it worked there.  I am surprised that more places don't use it, but I could see it as being an expensive thing to set up.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2011)

I used it at Jay.  They don't always read so well.  Three of the lift rides I took that day, I had to unzip my pocket and fiddle around with the ticket to get the gate on the Jet to open.  On one of those occasions, a chair went up empty because of it.

I think the best solution would be to have the RFID on a wicket just like a lift ticket.  It would probably result in fewer problems in being read.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> I know Jay used it this season.  I saw that, like other places, they charged you for the card that you could reload and reuse.  I'm not sure how it worked there.  I am surprised that more places don't use it, but I could see it as being an expensive thing to set up.



This topic was brought up at the Passholders meeting at Mount Snow this past March, and that was the answer given, cost.  The upfront investment was quite substantial (no actual $$ figure was given), and then for many base area lifts, you still need actual live employees to help pair up people to send up full chairs (the goal of pretty much every general manager and lift ops crew on a busy day).  So while the potential is there, and it has been proven to work, the reality is would a system like this be worth an extra dollar or two to an every day ticket price or another amount to a season pass price for it implementation? Since lets be honest, we all know that that's what a good amount of areas that would install this system would do


----------



## marcski (Jul 15, 2011)

Hate to break up this moderator chat you know with just a Muggle...but so be it.  

I think they're great.  Alta has had it for a few years and it is awesome IMHO.  No fiddling with the pass..just put the pass in one dedicated pocket in the pants.  And, as long as they put the scanner far enough back so you can have a few chairs ready to load between the scanner and the load point, it will solve any issues that DHS encountered at Jay.

And, I think we've had a few discussions on here about them before.


----------



## Glenn (Jul 15, 2011)

How do they work in practice? Do they have gates or turnstyles? 

Like Jeff mentioned, it was brought up at Mt Snow...and on the forums over there. I can see how it would make things a bit quicker. You may still need someone there double checking passes though. I know Mt Snow rewards their employees when they find someone with a fake pass/ticket or who is sharing a season pass.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 15, 2011)

marcski said:


> as long as they put the scanner far enough back so you can have a few chairs ready to load between the scanner and the load point, it will solve any issues that DHS encountered at Jay.



Putting them far enough back to allow for a buffer to form is key, IMHO.



marcski said:


> And, I think we've had a few discussions on here about them before.



We have, but the threads I found before posting this one were about individual mountains that have started using RFID.  If I missed something I'll be happy to join this thread with an older one.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 15, 2011)

Glenn said:


> How do they work in practice? Do they have gates or turnstyles?
> 
> Like Jeff mentioned, it was brought up at Mt Snow...and on the forums over there. I can see how it would make things a bit quicker. You may still need someone there double checking passes though. I know Mt Snow rewards their employees when they find someone with a fake pass/ticket or who is sharing a season pass.



The systems I've seen are turnstiles.  I wonder how well they work for newer skiers who are still unstable on their skis?

Yes, you'd still need someone there to oversee things, which does negate some of the advantage I guess.  In my mind those people could shift more of their attention to line management than they would have otherwise.


----------



## Geoff (Jul 15, 2011)

drjeff said:


> This topic was brought up at the Passholders meeting at Mount Snow this past March, and that was the answer given, cost.  The upfront investment was quite substantial (no actual $$ figure was given), and then for many base area lifts, you still need actual live employees to help pair up people to send up full chairs (the goal of pretty much every general manager and lift ops crew on a busy day).  So while the potential is there, and it has been proven to work, *the reality is would a system like this be worth an extra dollar or two to an every day ticket price* or another amount to a season pass price for it implementation? Since lets be honest, we all know that that's what a good amount of areas that would install this system would do



Nonsense.   Read-only passive RFID tags are $0.10 to $0.15 each in any kind of quantity.   

At Killington, they need two employees per lift on quad chairs and gondolas to scan bar codes.   RFID gates would pay for themselves very quickly.   The employees could instead focus on keeping the chairs full and policing the lift line bargers and you'd only need half as many employees.


----------



## Glenn (Jul 15, 2011)

bvibert said:


> The systems I've seen are turnstiles.  I wonder how well they work for newer skiers who are still unstable on their skis?
> 
> Yes, you'd still need someone there to oversee things, which does negate some of the advantage I guess.  In my mind those people could shift more of their attention to line management than they would have otherwise.



They could probably have the line people randomly spot check passes. Just to make sure it's the passholder...and not a friend out borrowing it.


----------



## o3jeff (Jul 15, 2011)

Glenn said:


> They could probably have the line people randomly spot check passes. Just to make sure it's the passholder...and not a friend out borrowing it.



I never understood how they know if it is you or not when you got a helmet/hat, googles and sometime a mask covering your face.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 15, 2011)

Glenn said:


> They could probably have the line people randomly spot check passes. Just to make sure it's the passholder...and not a friend out borrowing it.



Yup, that's a definite hole in the system.  Like you said, some human interaction should help discourage that, hopefully.  I imagine the gates could be setup to display the passholder's picture on a screen, to avoid having to ask the customer to pull it out of their pocket.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 15, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> I never understood how they know if it is you or not when you got a helmet/hat, googles and sometime a mask covering your face.



It's not easy to do.  Probably only the most blatant get caught with any regularity (like a guy using a girls pass).


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 15, 2011)

bvibert said:


> I know a few ski areas around the NE have gone to RFID.  Has anyone here used them?  I really like the concept, but I haven't heard any first hand feedback?
> 
> Do you think areas that currently bar code scan tickets will start switching to RFID?  It seems a lot more efficient.


I used them at Jay. They are fine by me. Some benefits include ticket in your pocket, no more cutting wickets, not having to show a ticket to a lift associate, not slowing the line down due to inefficient lifties checking for tickets, and most importantly, folks trying to sneak onto a lift without paying are caught (I saw this twice this past season, I can't even imagine how often it happens). Negatives include having to pay for the RFID card (at least at Jay) and when the scan doesn't work, it slows the line down.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 15, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I used it at Jay.  They don't always read so well.  Three of the lift rides I took that day, I had to unzip my pocket and fiddle around with the ticket to get the gate on the Jet to open.  On one of those occasions, a chair went up empty because of it.
> 
> I think the best solution would be to have the RFID on a wicket just like a lift ticket.  It would probably result in fewer problems in being read.


I think the reasons that the cards were not working that well that day is because the snow level was so low so the target was high for average or shorter sized skiers. If they could adjust the height of the target, that would be helpful for late season. Normally, there are not as many mis-reads.


----------



## Glenn (Jul 15, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> I never understood how they know if it is you or not when you got a helmet/hat, googles and sometime a mask covering your face.



Either do I. But like bvib says, it must be the ones who aren't really smart about it. I've seen a few people get picked out of line right in front of us. It usually goes like this: 

"What your birthday?"

"Uhhhhhh"

And that's that. They've actually asked me my DOB a handful of times. Maybe a lot of it is randomness.


----------



## gmcunni (Jul 15, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Either do I. But like bvib says, it must be the ones who aren't really smart about it. I've seen a few people get picked out of line right in front of us. It usually goes like this:
> 
> "What your birthday?"
> 
> ...



wait, when the hot chick checking my tickets said "What your sign?"  it wasn't because she was hitting on me?


----------



## TheBEast (Jul 15, 2011)

I used them at Jay.  A couple of observations.  People did have trouble with them scan at times for whatever reason.  If you use one of their discount programs (other mountain passholder, employee, etc.) you can't pre-load that onto a card, you end up using a single-use ticket, which was a pain for us who were there for 4 days and had to go to customer service every day on Tram side (we were staying State Side).  Some of us had trouble if you had an previous day ticket in the same pocket as the current day ticket.

On the plus side Jay ran some outstanding last minute deals that you could pre-load onto the card via the web beforehand which was good and lowered the ticket cost of our trip for some.

Bottom-line, I think it's a step in the right direction for a lot of places.  For Jay with minimal lifts I can see it working out cost wise, but a place with lots of lifts (K or Snow) that certainly will be a costly investment.  I give it another 5-10 years before you start seeing it at more places or something else bigger and better comes along and makes it obsolete.


----------



## andyzee (Jul 15, 2011)

I've used them in Utah as well as at Jay, love em. Did have a problem here or there, but it was just a matter of making sure they are in a pocket that is close to scanner level and worked fine. I've seen people have problems, but then I've seen scanners have problems as well.


----------



## andrec10 (Jul 15, 2011)

I've used them in Utah and love them. If management saw past the ends of their noses, places would recoup the costs in no time!


----------



## vcunning (Jul 17, 2011)

Glenn said:


> They've actually asked me my DOB a handful of times. Maybe a lot of it is randomness.



Glenn, I think you're getting confused with the DOB question.   That usually only happens at the drinking establishments we frequent.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Jul 18, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Either do I. But like bvib says, it must be the ones who aren't really smart about it. I've seen a few people get picked out of line right in front of us. It usually goes like this:
> 
> "What your birthday?"
> 
> ...



My season pass does not list the DOB or any info but my name and pic.  Never seen that info on passes at other mtns. or those questions asked either.

Basically to get caught, a person has to be a real idiot.


----------



## Glenn (Jul 18, 2011)

vcunning said:


> Glenn, I think you're getting confused with the DOB question.   That usually only happens at the drinking establishments we frequent.



Ahhhhh! OK! Now that makes sense! :lol:




Hawkshot99 said:


> My season pass does not list the DOB or any info but my name and pic.  Never seen that info on passes at other mtns. or those questions asked either.
> 
> Basically to get caught, a person has to be a real idiot.



It's not listed on our passes either. However, it does come up on the scanner when the ticket person scans your pass.


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 18, 2011)

Geoff said:


> At Killington, they need two employees per lift on quad chairs and gondolas to scan bar codes.   RFID gates would pay for themselves very quickly.   The employees could instead focus on keeping the chairs full and policing the lift line bargers and you'd only need half as many employees.





Glenn said:


> They could probably have the line people randomly spot check passes. Just to make sure it's the passholder...and not a friend out borrowing it.



At Jay there is usually one employee checking passes. He is standing next to the RFID gates with a hand held computer of sorts. He can see every pass which scans through the gates including pictures and stats for all the season pass holders. They catch people when there are discrepancies in sex, age or the photo doesn't match. I saw one guy stopped because he shaved off his beard. Also after a while the lifties know a lot of the regulars so if a regular is dumb enough to lone his pass to someone they will probably get caught.


----------



## billski (Jul 18, 2011)

I too used them at Jay this season.  Hmm, I didn't have to "buy" anything.  We got a paper-like ticket that is _not _rechargeable.  It worked everytime for us, we just had to make sure it was on the outward site of the jacket pocket.

The pass is now essentially transferable.I'm sure JP recognizes that.  However I cannot imagine someone coming all the way to Jay and not buying a pass for their entire stay.  The only time I'd stay in the lodge is if I broke something/


----------



## Geoff (Jul 18, 2011)

billski said:


> The pass is now essentially transferable.I'm sure JP recognizes that.  However I cannot imagine someone coming all the way to Jay and not buying a pass for their entire stay.  The only time I'd stay in the lodge is if I broke something/



A day ticket or multi-day ticket has always been "transferable".   ...particularly now that many places use tie wraps instead of a ticket bale and a ticket with adhesive on it.   In the old days, you had to go to a ticket window and tell them you were changing clothes so they'd print you another ticket.

As people point out, an RFID season pass can display your photo and birthday to a hand-held PC.   It's easy enough to spot the blatant imposters.


----------



## k123 (Sep 22, 2011)

Campgaw is going to be using an RFID ticket system this season: http://skicampgaw.com/home/item/33-rfid


----------



## x10003q (Sep 22, 2011)

Hickory Ski Center in NY has this system. I used it last year for an individual day pass and it worked fine. I zipped the card into a pocket on my sleeve and waved it by the reader. The thing about Hickory is that you are there with anywhere from 10-200 people so there is not so much lift loading pressure.:wink:

Hickory Ski Center


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2011)

This whole, 'it speeds thing up" thing is nonsense to me.  I think it's a P&L issue, plain and simple.


----------



## Edd (Sep 23, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> This whole, 'it speeds thing up" thing is nonsense to me.  I think it's a P&L issue, plain and simple.



Based on my observations out west I beg to differ.  No doubt there's a financial incentive if you think beyond short term but many ski areas do a poor job of lift line management.  Things run smoothly at the ones I've seen.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 23, 2011)

I've never used an RFID system so I have no experience with it. I have been to several areas that use a plastic card that you have to insert into a reader to get through the turnstiles. The only pain about that was you had to have the card readily available to insert in the reader, it was kind of a pain in the butt. If you don't have to insert a card into anything it sounds good to me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2011)

Looks like Ragged is in the RFID game now, which is somewhat surprising to me given that Ragged isn't a major resort.

I got my CHAD card in the mail today and it included a free ticket to Ragged.  You just need to register the card online and go and and hop on the lift.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Looks like Ragged is in the RFID game now, which is somewhat surprising to me given that Ragged isn't a major resort.
> 
> I got my CHAD card in the mail today and it included a free ticket to Ragged.  You just need to register the card online and go and and hop on the lift.



Still waiting on my chad  Card not that it is needed right now anyway. I saw the Ragged RFID cards at the Boston ski show at the Chad both. Almost bought another chad card but didn't. Man this was a useless post by me - no useful info at all...


----------



## billski (Nov 17, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> Still waiting on my chad  Card not that it is needed right now anyway..



I talked with Jeff at the show on Saturday.  The brochures just arrived.  He doesn't send out the cards until he has the brochure to accompany it.   Supposed to all go out this week.


----------



## mikestaple (Nov 17, 2011)

Used them at Jay last year.  You really had to be conscious of what pocket you had it in so it angled correctly to the reader.  Also, don't have your phone etc in that pocket as it messes up the read.

And - my kids had them.  Had to keep readjusting what pocket they sat in relative to their height and the reader.

I did refill them on line - but the refill for the youngest (under a certain age so he skied free) didn't take so I had to go back to client service anyways.

Seems like a great idea to avoid the ticket buying line.  Just needs a little more tweaking.............

In the end though - it's just more data gathering gibberish for their operations and marketing departments.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2011)

mikestaple said:


> In the end though - it's just more data gathering gibberish for their operations and marketing departments.



And an ancillary source of revenue.


----------



## 57stevey (Nov 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Looks like Ragged is in the RFID game now, which is somewhat surprising to me given that Ragged isn't a major resort.
> 
> I got my CHAD card in the mail today and it included a free ticket to Ragged.  You just need to register the card online and go and and hop on the lift.



Me too. But I notice there was no Golf/Ski Warehouse card included this year; was this the same for you? I have used the Sunapee discount in the past; CHAD card is still a good deal though overall.


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Nov 17, 2011)

I used RFID last season at Blue in PA and it worked well.  The card was free and I just kept in my outer jacket pocket and the turnstile opened every time.  I'll reload it on the internet before I go this season.


----------



## billski (Nov 17, 2011)

SUV Steve said:


> Me too. But I notice there was no Golf/Ski Warehouse card included this year; was this the same for you? I have used the Sunapee discount in the past; CHAD card is still a good deal though overall.



I have a golf and ski card, which I cant find; I thought the card was good forever, the deals just keep changing.


----------



## darent (Nov 17, 2011)

I have used them out west and at Jay. I like them even though sometimes the gate didn't open. all in all though they are efficient and manage the lift line better if the point of entry is far enough away from the lift. at alta they have several  entry points and you can ski right thru them and hop on the lift if they aren't crowded. makes my day


----------



## billski (Nov 17, 2011)

mikestaple said:


> Used them at Jay last year.  You really had to be conscious of what pocket you had it in so it angled correctly to the reader.  Also, don't have your phone etc in that pocket as it messes up the read.4444.



I talked with this marketing dude at the show who skis with Scotty B.  He said they did due diligence and spied on all the areas using them before deciding on their own plan.  His opinion is that Jay's implementation was very flawed.  The strike zone he said shoul go from your knees up to your shoulder.  He asserts the detectors are very sensitive and reliable.  We'll see.


----------



## Black Phantom (Nov 18, 2011)

billski said:


> I talked with this marketing dude at the show who skis with Scotty B.  He said they did due diligence and spied on all the areas using them before deciding on their own plan.  His opinion is that Jay's implementation was very flawed.  The strike zone he said shoul go from your knees up to your shoulder.  He asserts the detectors are very sensitive and reliable.  We'll see.



Sometimes you have to take the bull by the horns.


----------



## Skier4life (Nov 19, 2011)

I used them at Jay earlier this year and yup I like them...I had an early issue with my daughters card not reading well because she was too short so after a couple of tries i worked it out and just lifted her up each time we got to the gate [a little annoying but fairly seamless].

Only thing I don't like is that its just another scanner sending waves through or to your body...15 years from now we will hear that those blasted things are causing cancer...until then, shorter lift lines? YES PLEASE!!!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2011)

These cards do not make lift lines any shorter. If all the chairs are full with or without it the lines will be the same. Ticket lines will be shorter but not lift lines.


----------



## jerryg (Nov 20, 2011)

I've used them at Squaw and my pass at Heavenly. As for gates, I've only experienced them with the RFID at Squaw and have never had an issue.
I like how my pass can be tucked away and scanned through clothes.
I suspect that Vail resorts loves them because they can track skier traffic and statistics which can help with determining skier trends that may or may not lead to lift placement and trail design.
EpicMix fully uploads data from the chips in the cards and is in real time. I personally like using it and it is rather addicting. 
All of that being said, I don't see the human element being removed. Squaw has attendants near the scanners before the gates in case there is an issue and while Heavenly doesn't have gates on their entry lifts, they still scan the tickets, they just don't have to be precise as to where they point the scanner.


----------



## Skier4life (Nov 22, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> These cards do not make lift lines any shorter. If all the chairs are full with or without it the lines will be the same. Ticket lines will be shorter but not lift lines.



Sorry, I actually did mean ticket lines...nothing I hate more than waiting in line for tickets, be they lift tickets, theater tickets or subway tickets etc...Just an impatient person I guess.


----------



## 57stevey (Nov 22, 2011)

billski said:


> I have a golf and ski card, which I cant find; I thought the card was good forever, the deals just keep changing.



Wow... thanks for that info! I had tossed mine thinking it was an annual card, but on their website I was able to request a replacement. Whew.


----------



## playoutside (Nov 22, 2011)

Used them several years ago at Keystone and Breckenridge without an issue. I kept it in the knee pocket of my ski pants and never had an issue.


I used it last year at Jay and started at my knee pocket again, not good unless I lifted a ski and knee each time. Then moved it to a jacket pocket at my hip and it worked fine. Jay's system seemed finicky and a lot of people just didn't seem to get it. 

Put the card in a pocket with no other crap in it.
Make sure its at a height that aligns with the scanners
Pay attention to when its time to move forward...quit screwing around and BSing when you are near the front of the line
Stand still near the scanners
All that said, I hope Jay learned last year. Don't put the gates so close to the loading point.

Curious to see how Ragged does with it. The loading area is very tight near the 6-pack so it is a potential cluserf***

I don't like paying $5 for my cards, but so far have gotten all of them thru specials and haven't paid. I won't like keeping track of all the cards since I tend to ski many areas rather than sticking with just a couple. It's definitely nice to be able to preload the day and not deal with ticket windows.


----------



## billski (Nov 22, 2011)

playoutside said:


> I don't like paying $5 for my cards, but so far have gotten all of them thru specials and haven't paid. I won't like keeping track of all the cards since I tend to ski many areas rather than sticking with just a couple. It's definitely nice to be able to preload the day and not deal with ticket windows.



Masspike charges now for their transponders.  Originally they were given out for free.  Battery life is about five years, then you have to pay for a new one.   Well, it seems, that the clock, is just about, EXPIRED!


----------



## Nick (Nov 22, 2011)

They were never free... Used to be like 20 or 30 bucks, now they are free up front but are like 1 a month


----------



## playoutside (Nov 22, 2011)

Nick said:


> They were never free... Used to be like 20 or 30 bucks, now they are free up front but are like 1 a month


 
Depends on which state issues it.  Mine was from NJ, free ages ago when I got the first one.  Then started charging a $1/month and didn't have to give them more $ when mine outgrew it's useful life.  Friends in MA, don't pay monthly, but will pay when device needs replacing.   NH gave them away in the early days, not sure what they do now.  Obviously each state will do what they need to to to cover costs (and maybe make a profit)


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 23, 2011)

No more wickets or zip-ties. No more ticket windows or lines. No more picking up your season pass at the beginning of every season. The Evolution Stowe Card is both permanent and flexible. It's a single card that has limitless possibilities. And it really is the last lift ticket you'll ever need at Stowe. And once you experience Stowe, it might be the last lift ticket you'll want from any mountain.  

The latest in ski and snowboard technology doesn't go on your feet. It goes in your pocket.

Stowe Mountain Resort guests will be charged a one-time $5.00 Evolution Stowe Card Fee when they purchase any ticket product. The Evolution Stowe Card uses RFID technology to grant hands-free access to lifts and replaces the traditional lift ticket. Guests may keep their Evolution Stowe Card to reload for future visits to Stowe Mountain Resort, or they can return it to any ticket window at the end of their stay for a $5.00 refund. $5.00 refunds will be provided via the original purchase method of payment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2011)

I miss wickets.

I'll also miss my $5 times XYZ resorts I ski at once everyone moves to this ancillary income system.


----------



## hiroto (Dec 5, 2011)

Wow, this is a surprise.   Blue Hills is going RFID this season.   

http://ski-bluehills.com/home/item/32-rfid


----------



## Abubob (Dec 5, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> I miss wickets.



ditto.

I picked up my Ragged RFID pass this past Saturday. We'll see.


----------



## billski (Dec 5, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> I miss wickets.



Head over to Storrs Hill or Northeast Slopes.  Same old paper ones, hand-written date or stamped with one of those generic 1960s style hand stampers.  I got mine hanging in my office.  Classic!


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Dec 5, 2011)

billski said:


> Head over to Storrs Hill or Northeast Slopes.  Same old paper ones, hand-written date or stamped with one of those generic 1960s style hand stampers.  I got mine hanging in my office.  Classic!



Mt. Peter in Warwick, NY has wickets still.  Until about 2 or 3 years ago they hand wrote the date now they have a fancy computer printed date on them.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2011)

Plattekill still has wickets too.

When you take away wickets, you're cheating beginner skiers out of the joy of botching up their sticker fold.

When you take away wickets, you're cheating beginner skiers out of the joy of affixing their lift ticket to their center coat zipper, thus having it smack them in the face all day long.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2011)

I noticed on some (Ragged at least) you can use these as your season pass. If this is so what stops you from lending or even renting it to someone else for the day if there is no picture on it or even if there was it is in your pocket...

Evil doers always finds a way


----------



## Abubob (Dec 6, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> I noticed on some (Ragged at least) you can use these as your season pass. If this is so what stops you from lending or even renting it to someone else for the day if there is no picture on it or even if there was it is in your pocket...
> 
> Evil doers always finds a way



Each of the turnstiles has a monitor attached that is supposed to display the photo associated with the pass - at Ragged anyway. I haven't seen this in used yet -- obviously.

Or they might ask you what your birthday is... wing it.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2011)

Abubob said:


> Each of the turnstiles has a monitor attached that is supposed to display the photo associated with the pass - at Ragged anyway. I haven't seen this in used yet -- obviously.
> 
> Or they might ask you what your birthday is... wing it.



So even on a day pass they have your picture?
DO they send you the card when you order it online or do you have to pick it up at the mountain?


----------



## Abubob (Dec 6, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> So even on a day pass they have your picture?
> DO they send you the card when you order it online or do you have to pick it up at the mountain?



I had to pick up my season's pass at the mountain and they took my picture then. So - I'm guessing here - you pick up at the mountain - they take your picture - even for a day pass. After that you can reload or upgrade the card - either online or at the mountain.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 6, 2011)

Going to Stowe Saturday as part of a FAM trip for the tour group operator that we book our bus trips through.  I am hoping they "comp" us the RIFD cards.

I will report back on how it worked.  this will be my first opportunity to use it.


----------



## Bumpsis (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm a bit less than happy about having to pay the $5 for the RFID at Ragged.

 I ski Ragged on day-ski basis and for a family of 4 that's a $ 20 that I will not see again. Having to pay that extra just to subsidize the expense of putting the system in just burns me since I really can't see any benefit to me. Just as it was pointed out by others, the lines will not get any shorter, lift lines that is.

If, at the very least, Ragged would sell 4 hour ski time segments (equivalent of a 1/2 day ticket) that can be started at my convenience, then I could see that I'm getting someting extra out of this. Often, we'll come up for 1/2 day start at noon - it's cheaper and we can still get some decent amount of actual ski time since doing a full day as a family never seems to work out for us.

Being able to start at say, 11 AM and finish at 3:00 would be a really nice option and getting full value for money paid. 

As is, the $ 5 is just an extra expense per skier with no benefit to the customer.

I don't have an issue with the technology. I recall using a RFID ticket somewhere out west (Solitude? ) and it worked fine but I don't believe that I had to pay extra for the privilage of using the the RFID there. Not happy


----------



## Abubob (Dec 7, 2011)

Bumpsis said:


> I don't have an issue with the technology. I recall using a RFID ticket somewhere out west (Solitude? ) and it worked fine but I don't believe that I had to pay extra for the privilage of using the the RFID there. Not happy



Is it possible the cards out west were one time use? According to Ragged this is a one time fee. After that you purchase tickets online or with a smartphone which is why the tickets lines won't be as long. (I don't know that I've ever seen a ticket line at Ragged anyway.)


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 7, 2011)

I'll have to buy another wallet to keep all the different RFID cards in. The one I have now is already full with credit cards.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 7, 2011)

You need to get one of these


----------



## Bumpsis (Dec 7, 2011)

Abubob said:


> Is it possible the cards out west were one time use? According to Ragged this is a one time fee. After that you purchase tickets online or with a smartphone which is why the tickets lines won't be as long. (I don't know that I've ever seen a ticket line at Ragged anyway.)



It is quite possible that those  tickets were one day use. I'm fine with that. I wish that Ragged would offer that option for day trippers who don't want to pay for the refillable ticket. Unless, they give some incentive to get that.  To me, as it is now, it sure looks like just another way to squeeze extra bucks from customers for nothing. 
In other words: rip off.
I couldn't care less about buying the tickets on line or with my phone. It's still the same money. I've never seen a ticket line at Ragged longer than 2-3 people. I can deal with that.


----------



## hammer (Jan 28, 2012)

Bumpsis said:


> I'm a bit less than happy about having to pay the $5 for the RFID at Ragged.
> 
> I ski Ragged on day-ski basis and for a family of 4 that's a $ 20 that I will not see again. Having to pay that extra just to subsidize the expense of putting the system in just burns me since I really can't see any benefit to me. Just as it was pointed out by others, the lines will not get any shorter, lift lines that is.
> 
> ...


What do other ski areas charge for the tickets?

Not too happy about the idea of paying for them either (looking at an extra $20 as well) but with the 2 for 1 special next Sunday I won't complain too much.  Would be nice if I could keep it for next season but I don't think it works that way.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 28, 2012)

Bumpsis said:


> I'm a bit less than happy about having to pay the $5 for the RFID at Ragged.
> 
> I ski Ragged on day-ski basis and for a family of 4 that's a $ 20 that I will not see again. Having to pay that extra just to subsidize the expense of putting the system in just burns me since I really can't see any benefit to me. Just as it was pointed out by others, the lines will not get any shorter, lift lines that is.
> 
> ...



Agreed; at their current pricing, I'd just as well go to one of the bigger mountains unless they were running a deal. In fact, at $62 for midweek and $71 weekend, I can do better elsewhere anyday with the $5 card fee or even after the 15% reload discount for a mountain comparable or better all in.


----------



## billski (Jan 28, 2012)

Stowe charges five bucks but will refund the five bucks at day's end if  you ask.  they make that clear to you when you get your ticket.  Good policy.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 28, 2012)

billski said:


> Stowe charges five bucks but will refund the five bucks at day's end if  you ask.  they make that clear to you when you get your ticket.  Good policy.



Wonder if you can turn in a group card like that. But I won't try since they'd probably know as I wouldn't imagine it'd be applicable to groups.


----------



## Cheese (Jan 29, 2012)

These and bar code scanners are for surveys and marketing.  I fail to understand why I need to be inconvenienced so that they can gather data about where my travels took me all day.  What's the inconvenience?

Stand in line in the morning to pay $5 or the RFID ticket and then stand in line again at the end of the day to turn in the ticket to receive the $5 refund.

I understand that mountains don't want people riding the chair lifts for free, but this goes way beyond that.  If they were truly interested in "theft of service" they would place the ticket checker at the summit.  That way the thief is guilty as soon as they ski off the lift.  Put them back on the lift, send them down and have the authorities meet them at the bottom with a summons.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 29, 2012)

Cheese said:


> These and bar code scanners are for surveys and marketing.  I fail to understand why I need to be inconvenienced so that they can gather data about where my travels took me all day.  What's the inconvenience?
> 
> Stand in line in the morning to pay $5 or the RFID ticket and then stand in line again at the end of the day to turn in the ticket to receive the $5 refund.
> 
> I understand that mountains don't want people riding the chair lifts for free, but this goes way beyond that.  If they were truly interested in "theft of service" they would place the ticket checker at the summit.  That way the thief is guilty as soon as they ski off the lift.  Put them back on the lift, send them down and have the authorities meet them at the bottom with a summons.



Labor is the biggest expense at any ski area.   The point of RFID is that it allows them to mostly automate ticket checking.   The last thing any ski area wants to do is put an *extra* employee at the top checking tickets and pissing off customers.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 29, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Labor is the biggest expense at any ski area.   The point of RFID is that it allows them to mostly automate ticket checking.   The last thing any ski area wants to do is put an *extra* employee at the top checking tickets and pissing off customers.


I agree lift checking at the top would piss off customers. Checks at the bottom are no problem because you're already waiting in a line. And for ski on days without a line, I don't mind waiting a second at the top but I want to ski ASAP after being on a cold lift. Besides, checking tickets at the top would be a safety issue. You need to move away from the unloading area ASAP.

But let's be honest, scanners and RFID don't require any less labor and sometimes require more. With RFID, they still have an associate dedicated to standing at the turn stiles ready in case there is a problem. Scanners usually require two people on high speed lifts because they can't hit every ticket with only one person. Whereas a visual inspection of tickets can be done as allowed by the person controlling the lift line (might not get everyone, every run... but will eventually usually check most tickets eventually).

The real reason for RFID is bundling services, attaching a credit card to the RFID card for other resort services, and using it as a loyalty card. 

However, on three occasions now I've seen folks booted out of line due to RFID. Two of those instances were folks that bought beginner tickets and tried to use upper mountain lifts (whether by intent or accident I can't say).

I do agree that consumers shouldn't have to get hit with an add on to pay for the tech. But consumers are going to pay for it one way or the other.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 29, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> The real reason for RFID is bundling services, attaching a credit card to the RFID card for other resort services, and using it as a loyalty card.



Not really.  I don't have RFID on any of my credit cards or my ATM card and they work just fine.   My pass has a bar code.   All the cash registers have a bar code scanner.   Works just as well as at the grocery store.

RFID saves labor.  Every employee you don't have to pay goes right to your bottom line.


----------



## Cheese (Jan 29, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The point of RFID is that it allows them to mostly automate ticket checking.



If it was to automate ticket checking why the need for it to be storing data to a marketing data base?  They're taking your every scan and determining:

what days of the week you like to ski
what type of weather you like to ski in
which lifts you most frequently ride
if you've taken a lesson
if you've visited the mountain ski shop
what you purchased in the ski shop

I'm sure there is a lot more they're gathering but this short list serves as an example.



Geoff said:


> The last thing any ski area wants to do is put an *extra* employee at the top checking tickets and pissing off customers.



I'm not suggesting adding an employee, I'm suggesting they move the employee.  At the bottom of the mountain no law has been broken.  This in merely an attempt to steal services and violators are ejected from the line before committing a crime.  At the top of the mountain, they are *GUILTY*.


----------



## dropKickMurphy (Jan 29, 2012)

I used it at Jay this year and had zero problems. I've also used them at Alta and Solitude. I've skied Alta 15 days in the last 3 years and I don't think I had a single misread.

Had a few misreads at Soli. It may be a slightly older system, it seems a bit more sensitive. Once I realized where the sensor was, I made sure to stand where the card would be near it and it worked fine.

I'm 100% in favor of these. They seem to really improve the loading process.I find that the process of lining up at the gates tends to organize the groups for the chairs. I also like the convenience being able to reload them online.

The hand held scanners often work poorly, and the bored employees who get stuck with the scanning job end up interfering with the loading process.


My guess is that areas invested significant $$$ a few years ago for the hand held scanning system, and they're looking to recoup that investment before investing in the newer and far superior RFID system.


----------



## billski (Jan 29, 2012)

Blue Hills, Mass. went RFID this year.


----------



## dropKickMurphy (Jan 29, 2012)

billski said:


> Blue Hills, Mass. went RFID this year.



Damn. I was hoping they were using that money to install a new 150 passenger tram to the summit.


----------



## tomcat (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon.  I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID?  Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket?  Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places.   I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.


----------



## billski (Jan 29, 2012)

tomcat said:


> I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon.  I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID?  Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket?  Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places.   I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.




http://www.jaypeakresort.com/#/skiing_riding/rates_hours/rfid/


----------



## Geoff (Jan 29, 2012)

Cheese said:


> If it was to automate ticket checking why the need for it to be storing data to a marketing data base?  They're taking your every scan and determining:
> 
> what days of the week you like to ski
> what type of weather you like to ski in
> ...



I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift.   The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information.   It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 29, 2012)

billski said:


> Blue Hills, Mass. went RFID this year.



Well you gotta figure that with a good chunk of Blue Hill's patron so used to using RFID card as they're getting on the T that the same basic thing for getting on a chairlift would be no foreign concept to them


----------



## billski (Jan 29, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Well you gotta figure that with a good chunk of Blue Hill's patron so used to using RFID card as they're getting on the T that the same basic thing for getting on a chairlift would be no foreign concept to them



I thought "Blue Hill" was T stop :razz:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 29, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> The real reason for RFID is bundling services, attaching a credit card to the RFID card for other resort services, and using it as a loyalty card.



Dont forget the ancillary source of revenue to the mountain.  

Even with the "Stowe return" policy, you better believe they're betting on the fact that a lot of people arent going to go through with the nuisance of getting that $5 per ticket back at the end of the day (especially with their clientele).


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 29, 2012)

Geoff said:


> RFID saves labor.  Every employee you don't have to pay goes right to your bottom line.


No, no it doesn't. At least at Jay, I see MORE employees at most RFID lifts not less. Maybe other ski areas are doing it differently. But from what I've seen at Jay, they have an RFID operator for all upper mountain lifts who's job is to monitor the turn styles.

In addition to the previous benefits I noted, the direct purchase from the web site is also a sales benefit. I got an insider view on RFID. From what I gathered, this is a sales tool first and foremost. They don't save labor because they have dedicated lifties watching the gates with the computer AND they need an IT person (or at least contract out IT related needs). They might prevent a few freebies from scamming a free ride. But at the end of the day, the sales are going to pay the bills. Maybe YOU don't associate your credit card with your season pass. But that doesn't mean the resort is doing what they are doing for YOU. Joe average family is taking advantage.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 29, 2012)

Can't say I've noticed fewer employees at RFID resorts myself.  Pretty much the same staffing at "normal" scanned ticket lifts.  My experience is limited to Jay Peak and Stowe, but both of those areas weren't running less labor because of the RFID.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 29, 2012)

Geoff said:


> I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift.   The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information.   It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.



Yes, and you can also use your season pass as a charge card the same way you could an RFID at most major  areas.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 30, 2012)

tomcat said:


> I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon.  I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID?  Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket?  Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places.   I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.



Only way to avoid it for what I know is to go with a group as far as Jay goes. Then again, you are given a card that does not have the ability to reload so if you go back on your own, you still pay the $5 fee. Most likely true with $teaux too.


----------



## Cheese (Jan 30, 2012)

Geoff said:


> I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift.   The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information.   It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.



I get my pass scanned at the entrance to Disney and they never trouble me again.  You really can't see the difference between allowing access vs. collecting data about your daily habits at a resort?


----------



## billski (Jan 30, 2012)

I have not been there this year, but last year, you could get a permanent card or a paper day-pass RFID card.  Sounds like the time for a phone call  (802)  988 9601.  I always get my fastest answers that way.

Regarding labor-saving systems, start up costs are always highest for most technologies.  You are an early adopter, by force or choice.  As everyone gets in the groove, and optimize it to their operation, it will eventually result in shorter lines, more volume and less labor.  For now, it's growing pains.

It's a lot like rotaries.  Er, uh, maybe not so much


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 30, 2012)

billski said:


> Regarding labor-saving systems, start up costs are always highest for most technologies.



True



billski said:


> You are an early adopter, by force or choice.  As everyone gets in the groove, and optimize it to their operation, *it will eventually result in shorter lines*, more volume and less labor.  For now, it's growing pains.



I still for the life of me do not understand this, regardless of how often it's said by the resorts implementing RFID, and by however many RFID believers in this thread.   

*1) The number of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
2) The speed of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
3) The number of patrons that flow through on X-day is given, and not variable.*

So net/net, if the only "time saved" is in the flow of people onto the chairs (and even that's dicey IMO), that's an incremental positive at best, as once the chairs reach their full capacity "choke point", even that theoretical advantage is instantly eliminated.

So at the end of the day, I still believe (as I have from day one) that the entire point of RFID is:

1) Ancillary income to the resort
2) Decreased labor costs (eventually)
3) Increased  data collection of consumer activities
4) Increased forward marketing capabilities

In other words, all benefits to the mountain, and not to the consumer, regardless of what we're told.  I mean, _"I can reload my ticket online?"  _  Well big whoopti-do!  Frankly, in my cheap skiing case, I'm far more likely to be using a BOGO or something that needs redemption at the window anyway. lol


----------



## Skier4life (Jan 30, 2012)

Cheese said:


> I get my pass scanned at the entrance to Disney and they never trouble me again.



They need not trouble you further as they have all they need with the single swipe at the entrance gate when you first enter the resort. 

I know it will be difficult due to topography and mountain terrain, but perhaps very soon ski resorts will start fencing and have just one entrance for a single swipe upon entrance. This is for obvious reasons far fetched due to costs which will inevitably come right back to the consumer in the long run and not to mention congestion which the RFID's were created to avoid.

RFID's are okay and IMO, I think it reasonable the resorts recoup some of the money they spend to make our skiing lives arguably more enjoyable/streamlined.


----------



## Cheese (Jan 30, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> In other words, all benefits to the mountain, and not to the consumer, regardless of what we're told.



+1

 ... and more profits for the holding companies as the results of these data allow them to forecast revenues ahead of time and therefore pay hourly employees "on demand" instead of daily or weekly.  Great for corporate, tough on employees who count on a steady income.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 30, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> True
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They try to convince you to buy lift tix online for the expectation that not everyone will show that buys a ticket which goes for almost all areas. This is why ski resorts love liftopia as they can attract more price sensitive consumers that way as well as still charging rack rate for those who need a ticket on the spot. And it's the same reason why most ski buses will collect payment from you and most (but not all) have a policy that the trip is nonrefundable once purchased (with one refunding the lift ticket price only in the case of a no show minus a $15 service charge in credit for another trip which ends up being a mere $20 in most cases which is 20-30% of the cost of the trip and the other only refunds in full with a 3 day notice).

Since most deals require an online purchase whether it'd be a bus group, liftopia, etc. I try to book the closest possible to the date without being charged more (in case of a time sensitive special such as Nacski's early booking rates which is usually good until 2 or 3 days before the trip or a liftopia deal in short supply).

I volunteer for a group (that is not skiing related) and we encourage people to buy ahead of time. 10% of those who purchase and pay for a meeting online do not show so it ends up just flowing to the bottom line even though they are given the option to pay at the door (in which case if they say they'll pay at the door and don't show the group never sees the money).


----------



## billski (Jan 30, 2012)

The best way to solve this is at the bar.  Perhaps at the AZ summit.  At the end of the weekend, we can open a ski resort consultancy and sell them our advice for $10K a  pop.


----------



## Abubob (Jan 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Can't say I've noticed fewer employees at RFID resorts myself.  Pretty much the same staffing at "normal" scanned ticket lifts.  My experience is limited to Jay Peak and Stowe, but both of those areas weren't running less labor because of the RFID.



Ditto. At Ragged they've got someone two people by the scanners (they've got scanners to the left and right of the six pack), another to help load and make sure there's six per chair when they're busy (when they're not busy they just stand there and smile occasionally) plus another poor sap that has to stand outside by the kill switch. By the triple its the same as before just one to help load and stand by the kill switch.


----------



## billski (Feb 17, 2012)

Bousquet, one of the smallest areas in New England is getting into the RFID business.  Cost of entry must be pretty low.
http://www.telegram.com/article/20120216/COLUMN58/102169967

BTW, I skied at Jay a week ago and spent time talking to the lifite, holding his $5000 touch controller.  He can open, close or lock any gate with a poke from the pen.


----------

