# nyc chick looking to share ride up to killington this weekend



## robbie (Feb 19, 2015)

anyone driving up to killington on friday late afternoon / evening?  looking to split car / gas.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 19, 2015)

Talk to Steamboat1. He is quite the conversationalist!


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## ScottySkis (Feb 19, 2015)

Trade?


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## ScottySkis (Feb 25, 2015)

Sex for money. Ha he how it go you catch a ride?


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 25, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Sex for money. Ha he how it go you catch a ride?



And some people wonder why this site is a sausage fest....


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## C-Rex (Feb 25, 2015)

Scotty's motto:  Cash, grass, or ass.  Nobody rides for free.  

But I think his incoherent-ness makes him nonthreatening so no harm done.  :lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Sex for money. Ha he how it go you catch a ride?



Wow, Scotty just got all creepy; I didn't know he was going to do that.



C-Rex said:


> Scotty's motto:  Cash, grass, or ass.  Nobody rides for free.
> 
> But I think his incoherent-ness makes him nonthreatening so no harm done.  :lol:



I met him recently at Platty and can confirm the nonthreatening bit.  Also, he's completely coherent in person, which makes the EFL (English as a Fourth Language) posting-style even more puzzling.


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## jrmagic (Feb 25, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, Scotty just got all creepy; I didn't know he was going to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I met him recently at Platty and can confirm the nonthreatening bit.  Also, he's completely coherent in person, which makes the EFL (English as a Fourth Language) posting-style even more puzzling.



Yeah I'm thinking she won't be back lol. As for that last part that is pretty funny. Maybe the weed causes translation issues only in his typing?


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## Harvey (Feb 25, 2015)

IMO ski forums suffer from a lack of female input.  I'll never understand why the knee-jerk reaction of some is to offend and effectively drive them away.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2015)

Harvey said:


> IMO ski forums suffer from a lack of female input.  I'll never understand why the knee-jerk reaction of some is to offend and effectively drive them away.



Does anyone seriously believe that in their first post on an Internet message board some girl was trying to catch a ride? Seems very 70s hippy-ish. Not sure what the goal of the post was but call me a skeptic that "Robbie" is real.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2015)

Happens on music forums all the time actually.  Very 2010s hippy-ish chicks looking to get to Phish shows.  Scotty should cruise the Phantasy Tour forums for women.  Probably have a bit better luck than here.


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## Harvey (Feb 25, 2015)

Whether or not the OP was "real" or not, to me is beside the point. Women are underrepresented in every forum except Ski Diva, where men are prohibited. Any theories on why?


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Happens on music forums all the time actually.  Very 2010s hippy-ish chicks looking to get to Phish shows.  Scotty should cruise the Phantasy Tour forums for women.  Probably have a bit better luck than here.



I don't know if the quality is there. Not exactly the place for hotties. On a side note, female snowboarders are substantially hotter than female skiers as a general rule. Just my opinion but feel free to debate.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2015)

I'm guessing they don't like the aggressive bro brah posting dialogue of many male forum members.  Conversations can often devolve into a richard waving contest


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I don't know if the quality is there. Not exactly the place for hotties.



You would be mistaken.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2015)

Harvey said:


> Whether or not the OP was "real" or not, to me is beside the point. Women are underrepresented in every forum except Ski Diva, where men are prohibited. Any theories on why?



Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You would be mistaken.



Okay I can admit when I am wrong. I used the Google and was surprised at what came up. Some very attractive ladies but I bet they all have bushy armpits.


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## Harvey (Feb 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.



I believe the reason is illuminated within this response, if you read between the lines.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2015)

I'll browse phantasy tour to find leaked tour dates before band announcements.  It can save you hundreds on hotel rooms because as soon as Phish announces they are playing a city, hotel room rates jump up near the venue by 100%.   Recently when doing just that, I came across this gem of a photo from a couple of female pt members.

pretty hilarious


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2015)

You don't have to read between the lines Harvey. I think it's clear that women generally aren't interested in the types of discussion.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 25, 2015)

Several women post on this site regularly. Same thing on other ski sites I know.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2015)

I would say abc and skifane are the only real regulars currently on AZ.   


Other women occasionally, but that's usually around the time of the summit.


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## abc (Feb 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.





Harvey said:


> I believe the reason is illuminated within this response, if you read between the lines.


But who needs to read, never mind between the lines, when he *think "*it's clear"? 



MadMadWorld said:


> You don't have to read between the lines Harvey. *I think it's clear *that women generally aren't interested in the types of discussion.


What's most "clear" is some men "think it's clear" because it fits their stereotype of women. 

Women aren't interested on forums where mad man shouts the loudest even reasonable men don't have a voice.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.



Wow, MadMadWorld just got all turbo-sexist; I didn't know he was going to do that.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 25, 2015)

How many gay men/women/whatever post here?

What are their favorite topics to discuss?


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 26, 2015)

abc said:


> But who needs to read, never mind between the lines, when he *think "*it's clear"?
> 
> 
> What's most "clear" is some men "think it's clear" because it fits their stereotype of women.
> ...



Lol I don't even know where to start. You seem to ignore the fact that I used the term "generally" over and over again. I am just pointing out facts that that there are less than I handful of women that post on here or any other ski forum. It is what it is and has nothing to do with "female friendly" PC bullshit. Go to the Knot and forums like that and I would guarantee you would see probably the same amount of guys that this forum has women. Do you think that site isn't "man friendly"? I can't believe I even have to make this argument.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 26, 2015)

I was just joking, sorry if I attended any1!!!


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## mriceyman (Feb 26, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> I was just joking, sorry if I attended any1!!!



Hahha i wasnt attended


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 26, 2015)

It's my impression that on average, women skiers are less interested in talking about every single aspect of the sport ad nauseam using the format of an internet message board. The fact that there are already few women here could be a deterrent for some women.

You're good Scotty. Believe it or not most women aren't bra burners lacking any sense of humor. Most women could easily hang here "with the guys" if it happened to be interesting enough for them to bother.

I'm all for reaching out to more women somehow but drinking the poison political correctness (or acting all shocked if someone makes a sex or gender based joke) isn't the way to go about it.


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## C-Rex (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm attended.  Very, VERY attended.  

Ski Stef seems pretty hot.  Sorry Nick, it had to be said.  I hope you're not attended.  Just a compliment.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 26, 2015)

Honestly I'm surprised more ladies don't come around. They must not know C-Rex is in the house.


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## C-Rex (Feb 26, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's my impression that on average, women skiers are less interested in talking about every single aspect of the sport ad nauseam using the format of an internet message board. The fact that there are already few women here could be a deterrent for some women.
> 
> You're good Scotty. Believe it or not most women aren't bra burners lacking any sense of humor. Most women could easily hang here "with the guys" if it happened to be interesting enough for them to bother.
> 
> I'm all for reaching out to more women somehow but drinking the poison political correctness (or acting all shocked if someone makes a sex or gender based joke) isn't the way to go about it.



Well said.  I agree.  Most girls I know that are really into skiing or riding still don't like to discuss it endlessly as you said. Plus, the banter, I feel, is generally a guy thing. That said, I've recently been introduced to a lovely lady that is comparably obsessed with snowboarding.  God, is it a turn on!  Only girl I've ever been able to talk shop with that really got it and could contribute just like one of my guy friends.


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## C-Rex (Feb 26, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> Honestly I'm surprised more ladies don't come around. They must not know C-Rex is in the house.



Ha! The bane of being a ginger.  They're attracted to the fire of our crotches but the lack of soul is disconcerting.


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## Higgl (Feb 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I don't know if the quality is there. Not exactly the place for hotties. On a side note, female snowboarders are substantially hotter than female skiers as a general rule. Just my opinion but feel free to debate.
> 
> Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.
> 
> ...



And men _generally_ are interested in this kind of discussion? You do realize that everyone on this site in the minority of the minority. Most people, men or women, don't spend their time running around any kind of internet forum, NEVERMIND a forum on something as niche both economically and geographically as skiing is.

I would say the reason this is so sexist is because you used the word generally. Don't try and force an entire gender, male or female, into some kind of box like that. That's the entire reason why gender is still such a huge issue in the world today.

There are not a lot of women on this site, yes. However, that does not mean MOST women, or most women who shave their armpits and wear makeup and act as your sexist little mind thinks women should act are or are not interested in these topics. I have as many guy friends as I do female friends that love to talk about all the ins and outs of skiing beyond the topics you seem to think all women only want to talk about.

And Jesus Christ dude, bushy armpits? Are you stuck in the 70s-hippie world?


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 26, 2015)

Higgl said:


> And men _generally_ are interested in this kind of discussion? You do realize that everyone on this site in the minority of the minority. Most people, men or women, don't spend their time running around any kind of internet forum, NEVERMIND a forum on something as niche both economically and geographically as skiing is.
> 
> I would say the reason this is so sexist is because you used the word generally. Don't try and force an entire gender, male or female, into some kind of box like that. That's the entire reason why gender is still such a huge issue in the world today.
> 
> ...



If your going to be a white knight your in the wrong place. And if you are looking for an apology you are also mistaken. You really don't know anything about me or my sense of humor so relax.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 26, 2015)

If I really felt the way you think I do, would I be trying to teach my 2 yr old daughter how to ski?

http://www.forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=135753


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## arik (Feb 26, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> How many gay men/women/whatever post here?
> 
> What are their favorite topics to discuss?



just one

free tickets, skiing bumps, and moving somewhere with big mountains


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 26, 2015)

Higgl said:


> *Don't try and force an entire gender, male or female, into some kind of box like that. That's the entire reason why gender is still such a huge issue in the world today.*



Biology, chemical differences, and thousands of years of human evolution clearly have nothing to do with it.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 26, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Sex for money. Ha he how it go you catch a ride?



Scared that new member away awful fast.......

:lol:


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## C-Rex (Feb 26, 2015)

Higgl said:


> And men _generally_ are interested in this kind of discussion? You do realize that everyone on this site in the minority of the minority. Most people, men or women, don't spend their time running around any kind of internet forum, NEVERMIND a forum on something as niche both economically and geographically as skiing is.
> 
> I would say the reason this is so sexist is because you used the word generally. Don't try and force an entire gender, male or female, into some kind of box like that. That's the entire reason why gender is still such a huge issue in the world today.
> 
> ...



Wow!  Someone's easily attended.  

MMW's comments come from observation, and the data available to those of us who've been posting here for a while definitely supports it.  No one is saying ALL women are the same.  So climb down off that rag and get a sense of humor.


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## JonD (Feb 26, 2015)

Harvey said:


> Women are underrepresented in every forum except Ski Diva, where men are prohibited. Any theories on why?


--


ScottySkis said:


> Sex for money. Ha he how it go you catch a ride?


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## Tin (Feb 26, 2015)




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## Tin (Feb 26, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Biology, chemical differences, and thousands of years of human evolution clearly have nothing to do with it.




What was this supposed to mean?


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 26, 2015)

Tin said:


>



Be glad your mom didn't


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## marcski (Feb 26, 2015)

Geez. This is like a late Summer thread.


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## gmcunni (Feb 26, 2015)

marcski said:


> Geez. This is like a late Summer thread.



whole forum has been summer-like recently


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> If your going to be a white knight your in the wrong place.








MadMadWorld said:


> Be glad your mom didn't



+1


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## freeski (Feb 26, 2015)

Good luck Scotty!


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## marebear (Feb 26, 2015)

*Lone chick weighing in......*

I've been boarding for 23 years and skied 12 before that. I would rather talk about skiing and riding than anything else but choose not to spend a bunch of time on a keyboard chatting. That being said, I love reading through the threads here and also check Kzone daily for info and nonsense. I will admit I am entertained by "boy's" humor, spirited debates, dirty double entendres, and ski-off challenges and whatever hilarity that ensues when egos clash. I am never offended by anything said here or on any other forum. I am a "guy's gal" and am B*O*R*E*D with celebrity gossip,designer crap, and the usual chick drama. I can carve a mountain up like nobody's business and also mountain climb,hike,cycle,kayak,waterski,wakeboard and hit the gym-hard. I realize that I may be setting myself up for a few jokes(especially by Kzone opponents),but that's ok. As soon as I saw this thread, I knew it would melt...fast. nyc chick was unknowingly opening herself up for one liners and the like. I couldn't wait to see the responses. Anyway, my point here is just because we may not be actively posting does not mean we are not hanging around. I look forward to the banter and am missing my beloved sport and these forums all summer long. Then, I switch to paddling.net and various hiking forums, but they are YAWNS compared to you guys!! Thanks for the laughs...


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## octopus (Feb 26, 2015)

nobody even asked for pics. weak.

i've seen skistef in person and she's a ok in my book, know what i'm sayin.(scottie p voice)


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 26, 2015)

Tin said:


> What was this supposed to mean?



That despite the dictate of what left-wing political correctness demands, men and women really _are_ different.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 26, 2015)

marebear said:


> I've been boarding for 23 years and skied 12 before that. I would rather talk about skiing and riding than anything else but choose not to spend a bunch of time on a keyboard chatting. That being said, I love reading through the threads here and also check Kzone daily for info and nonsense. I will admit I am entertained by "boy's" humor, spirited debates, dirty double entendres, and ski-off challenges and whatever hilarity that ensues when egos clash. I am never offended by anything said here or on any other forum. I am a "guy's gal" and am B*O*R*E*D with celebrity gossip,designer crap, and the usual chick drama. I can carve a mountain up like nobody's business and also mountain climb,hike,cycle,kayak,waterski,wakeboard and hit the gym-hard. I realize that I may be setting myself up for a few jokes(especially by Kzone opponents),but that's ok. As soon as I saw this thread, I knew it would melt...fast. nyc chick was unknowingly opening herself up for one liners and the like. I couldn't wait to see the responses. Anyway, my point here is just because we may not be actively posting does not mean we are not hanging around. I look forward to the banter and am missing my beloved sport and these forums all summer long. Then, I switch to paddling.net and various hiking forums, but they are YAWNS compared to you guys!! Thanks for the laughs...



I don't know what to say other than....YES!!


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## Bumpsis (Feb 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Be glad your mom didn't



Perhaps she did. Noting wrong with being planned


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## marebear (Feb 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I don't know what to say other than....YES!!



....good call on your snowboard vs skier girls. When I first started boarding the sport was dominated by teen boys in baggy pants. Because of the lack of females, I felt like a celebrity and was barraged with questions and interest about the sport and transitioning from skiing. It was a blast. Somewhere in the middle of 20+ years a lot has happened,but one thing remains...a girl ripping down a steep or through the trees on a board is Hot....imho.:smile:


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## abc (Feb 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I am just pointing out facts that that there are less than I handful of women that post on here or any other ski forum.


No, you didn't "point out a fact". You offered an *OPINION *as to *WHY *you "think" women are under-represented. And that opinion, when someone pointed out it's ignorant, you insist it's "clearly" right because it's YOUR opinion! 

You may even take solace on that you're not alone here. You have many other sexist guys just like you... And you're the loudest so the less vocal minority who called you out on it got shouted down. For any women coming to this board, your biased voice is all they'll see. 

That's got a lot more to do with WHY women are under-represented here.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 26, 2015)

abc said:


> No, you didn't "point out a fact". You offered an *OPINION *as to *WHY *you "think" women are under-represented. And that opinion, when someone pointed out it's ignorant, you insist it's "clearly" right because it's YOUR opinion!
> 
> You may even take solace on that you're not alone here. You have many other sexist guys just like you... And you're the loudest so the less vocal minority who called you out on it got shouted down. For any women coming to this board, your biased voice is all they'll see.
> 
> That's got a lot more to do with WHY women are under-represented here.


Fiesty brawd!!!

I like that.


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## abc (Feb 26, 2015)

BTW, women maybe under-represented on this forum, it's not AS under-represented as most think. Many of the chicks use handles that doesn't have clear indication of their sex. The forum regulars thinking in the same groove as MadMadWorld naturally assume any handle that's not HoneyBunny are NOT a woman!

I work in the IT field, where a lot of Indians and Chinese works. Every time we got a resume with an Indian or Chinese name, just about everyone assumes it's a man! Granted, women in IT are relatively under-represented also. Still, people got a shock when they walk into a room to meet a Neru or Jian found a woman there!


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## gladerider (Feb 27, 2015)

marebear said:


> ....good call on your snowboard vs skier girls. When I first started boarding the sport was dominated by teen boys in baggy pants. Because of the lack of females, I felt like a celebrity and was barraged with questions and interest about the sport and transitioning from skiing. It was a blast. Somewhere in the middle of 20+ years a lot has happened,but one thing remains...a girl ripping down a steep or through the trees on a board is *Hot*....imho.:smile:


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

abc said:


> No, you didn't "point out a fact". You offered an *OPINION *as to *WHY *you "think" women are under-represented. And that opinion, when someone pointed out it's ignorant, you insist it's "clearly" right because it's YOUR opinion!
> 
> You may even take solace on that you're not alone here. You have many other sexist guys just like you... And you're the loudest so the less vocal minority who called you out on it got shouted down. For any women coming to this board, your biased voice is all they'll see.
> 
> That's got a lot more to do with WHY women are under-represented here.



DHS can't you run some report on this? Susan B. Anthony here needs to be put in her place.



abc said:


> BTW, women maybe under-represented on this forum, it's not AS under-represented as most think. Many of the chicks use handles that doesn't have clear indication of their sex. The forum regulars thinking in the same groove as MadMadWorld naturally assume any handle that's not HoneyBunny are NOT a woman!
> 
> I work in the IT field, where a lot of Indians and Chinese works. Every time we got a resume with an Indian or Chinese name, just about everyone assumes it's a man! Granted, women in IT are relatively under-represented also. Still, people got a shock when they walk into a room to meet a Neru or Jian found a woman there!



You are what is wrong with feminist views these days. Although I don't know how many "chicks" at the hen house would appreciate you calling them that!

Marebear chimed her with her opinion and you completely ignored it but because it didn't go along with your opinion. 

Congratulations you work in a field with few woman. Nothing is preventing women from going into that field if they really want to you silly goose! Just like nothing is stopping men from going into careers traditionally held by women like social work and nursing.


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## twinplanx (Feb 27, 2015)

And... the OPs post count still lies at ZERO


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## mriceyman (Feb 27, 2015)

marebear said:


> ....good call on your snowboard vs skier girls. When I first started boarding the sport was dominated by teen boys in baggy pants. Because of the lack of females, I felt like a celebrity and was barraged with questions and interest about the sport and transitioning from skiing. It was a blast. Somewhere in the middle of 20+ years a lot has happened,but one thing remains...a girl ripping down a steep or through the trees on a board is Hot....imho.:smile:



You are awesome


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

Ran the numbers twice.  Of the 13765 registered members of the forum,  we have 6917 members identifying as fermale and 6848 members identifying as male.  Who knew


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

Women get offended by stereotypes because they are often (NOT ALWAYS) more preoccupied with what people think than men are.  When someone makes a generalized comment about women, many women worry that people may think what was said applies to them so they start spouting about how sexist and wrong we are. People make generalized comments base on observations because largely those observations hold water.  It doesn't mean we are saying it's 100% true.  Only generally.  We just don't feel the need to put a disclaimer on every sentence because we aren't that effing sensitive.

I admit that said sensitivity usually comes from being marginalized in the past.  Any group that has been the object of prejudice is often a bit touchy about generalized statements because the thinking behind them actually may affect them in some instances.  White males are rarely held back or treated unfairly because of our race or gender so we often find it hard to sympathize with that sensitivity.  However, yelling and screaming about how wrong the stereotypes are just because you don't fit it isn't going to change the stereotype.  The stereotype will remain as long as it is generally true.  All you can really do is be who you are and let those who are wrong about you find out in their own time how wrong the are.  Getting offended about it only reinforces the stereotype of the male-bashing, feminine activist.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ran the numbers twice.  Of the 13765 registered members of the forum,  we have 6917 members identifying as fermale and 6848 members identifying as male.  Who knew



Okay you need to go away. There is no way there is that many females here!


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ran the numbers twice.  Of the 13765 registered members of the forum,  we have 6917 members identifying as fermale and 6848 members identifying as male.  Who knew



I think men just post more because we aren't busy typing other shit.  Our secretaries do it, and that's why they aren't posting.  :razz:


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> I think men just post more because we aren't busy typing other shit.  Our secretaries do it, and that's why they aren't posting.  :razz:



Oh snap. You done did it


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> Women get offended by stereotypes because they are often (NOT ALWAYS) more preoccupied with what people think than men are.  When someone makes a generalized comment about women, many women worry that people may think what was said applies to them so they start spouting about how sexist and wrong we are. People make generalized comments base on observations because largely those observations hold water.  It doesn't mean we are saying it's 100% true.  Only generally.  We just don't feel the need to put a disclaimer on every sentence because we aren't that effing sensitive.
> 
> I admit that said sensitivity usually comes from being marginalized in the past.  Any group that has been the object of prejudice is often a bit touchy about generalized statements because the thinking behind them actually may affect them in some instances.  White males are rarely held back or treated unfairly because of our race or gender so we often find it hard to sympathize with that sensitivity.  However, yelling and screaming about how wrong the stereotypes are just because you don't fit it isn't going to change the stereotype.  The stereotype will remain as long as it is generally true.  All you can really do is be who you are and let those who are wrong about you find out in their own time how wrong the are.  Getting offended about it only reinforces the stereotype of the male-bashing, feminine activist.



Putting those stereotypes out there in the manner that you are and then getting as defensive as you, MMW, and others have gotten is the reason those stereotypes are still an issue. Gender roles don't have to be a thing and they are slowly slowly slowly going away but if you continue to push those stereotypes the norms will continue to perpetuate through society and MMW's little girl will grow up not WANTING to be a doctor because of how she was raised, not because of some implicit biological reason.



MadMadWorld said:


> DHS can't you run some report on this? Susan B. Anthony here needs to be put in her place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And just what exactly do you think feminism is? Feminism is striving for and believing in gender equality, nothing more.

Really? Nothing is preventing women from going into those fields? Have you been watching the news lately? There are real life studies done where employers in those fields are handed identical resume's, one with a female name and one with a male name and the male name gets hired MORE than the woman name does with IDENTICAL RESUMES. Clearly nothing is wrong between genders in our world.


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

Not to say you're not going to be an awesome, loving father MMW. I thought your thread on teaching her to ski was adorable and warmed my heart. However, if you so vehemently endorse these sexist stereotypes, stereotypes do influence your decisions unconsciously. Heard of aversive of "modern" racism? Its the same thing with sexism and we ALL do it. That is why its such as issue!! 

Furthermore, beyond what you might do as a parent, its the rest of the adults in her life that will also push her down the gender normative road that many of you all clearly love so dearly.

Eliminating these stupid stereotypes are the only way we're going to make progress towards true gender equality which, I think anyone with a daughter on this forum should especially want. Shouting stereotypes to the high heavens about women as only doing this and that and holding this job and getting really pissy like a white man pissed that a black man is using his white water fountain is hurting that an incredible amount.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> Putting those stereotypes out there in the manner that you are and then getting as defensive as you, MMW, and others have gotten is the reason those stereotypes are still an issue. Gender roles don't have to be a thing and they are slowly slowly slowly going away but if you continue to push those stereotypes the norms will continue to perpetuate through society and MMW's little girl will grow up not WANTING to be a doctor because of how she was raised, not because of some implicit biological reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gender roles are not slowly slowly going away. They are pretty much long gone. I would say the only areas they still exist are in the military and jobs that involve physical labor. My daughter will know that she can be anything she wants when she grows up (hell we just had a Doc Mcstuffins themed birthday). For you to assume how I raise my daughter is presumptive considering you don't know me. My mom always worked full time as a kid and worked her way up from a nurse to running a department at Children's Hospital. Men with a lot more letters and credentials next to their name report to her. I have deep respect for that.

You have corrupted the term feminism to mean something different then the definition you gave. You seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and expect employers and others to pay for the decisions that were made before our time. I have worked in IS in the past and now do other work in technology but when I was involved in the hiring process at my previous employer we always enjoyed getting women applicants. They always had more attention to detail and were better at analyzing large problems and projects. But I'm sure you will somehow take that as an attack or insult.


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## skiMEbike (Feb 27, 2015)

All this talk of feminist, stereotypes, & polical correctness is what I look to escape when I come to this board...Now can we get back on topic?   It's Friday now and  Has anyone found a ride for this "nyc chick" ?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ran the numbers twice. * Of the 13765 registered members of the forum,  we have 6917 members identifying as fermale and 6848 members identifying as male*.



The data are flawed.



Higgl said:


> little *girl will grow up not WANTING to be a doctor because of how she was raised, not because of some implicit biological reason.*



If a little girl grows up not WANTING to be a doctor, it's likely she didn't want to be a doctor.

Oh....wait....... sorry.    Didn't mean to rain on your little downtrodden victimization and "societal evils" party.



Higgl said:


> *gender normative road *



Do explain this please.



Higgl said:


> Shouting stereotypes to the high heavens about women as only doing this and that and holding this job and getting really pissy *like a white man pissed that a black man is using his white water fountain* is hurting that an incredible amount.


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> All this talk of feminist, stereotypes, & polical correctness is what I look to escape when I come to this board...Now can we get back on topic?   It's Friday now and  Has anyone found a ride for this "nyc chick" ?



Never!  If it weren't for MMW and his vicious stereotyping, this woman would not have to be asking for a ride in the first place!


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> * For you to assume how I raise my daughter is presumptive considering you don't know me.*



She decided that, as a man, you just couldn't possible understand.   

Which isn't a gender stereotype....... at all.     Nope.


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

I like to joke. When I put out blatant stereotypes I'm just stirring the pot.  That's why I'm so blatant about it.  So no one can mistake the sarcasm for how I really feel.  

The hiring thing interests me though.  What gender was the person doing the hiring?  Did female employers also hire more men?  If so what does that say?  Also, a personal observation:  When we hire where I work, resumes are used only to see who qualifies for the job.  Once you interview we already know you are capable of performing the tasks required.  What we are looking for is, are you someone we want to work with?  Will we get along?  It's more of a personality test.  That said, perhaps many employers simply prefer to work with men.  Men generally find it easier to resolve conflict and work in teams with other men.  I've heard women say the same thing.  That they don't get along well with other women and prefer to work or hang out with men.  My point is, maybe it's not some conspiracy to keep women down.  Maybe it's just the way things are currently.  Which is to say that those views can and probably will change, but these things take time, usually generations.  

I know a woman can do just about anything a man can do and some can even do it better.  There are always exceptions to any generalization.  My point is simply that generalizations and stereotypes exist for a reason, and that's because they are observed to be true in a majority of situations, even if it's not really the case.  The only way to rid one's self of those is to consistently buck the trend and hope enough others do the same to change the perception.

Example:  A lot of skiers say snowboarders can't ride moguls well.  I can ride moguls well.  But I don't get my panties in a twist when someone says that because I know that the general observation is that snowboarders can't ride moguls well, and that that is because most of them really can't!  One guy ripping moguls on a board is not going to change the perception, nor will a whole crew or a minority percentage.  Do I get offended, NO.  Actually, I love when people have that view because then they are even more impress when they see me ride moguls.  So why can't women take the same stance?  Why get offended and whine about what people think?  Maybe that's really what makes us say things to offend you.  Because we know it'll get a rise out of you.


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 27, 2015)

U,mmm  ok. , lets all take a deep breath. , now does anybody still wanna talk bout skiing ?  BTW nothing sexier than a woman , young woman that rips on one or two planks. Just sayin 

signed 
a good man ,a good father and husband and grandfather who has several chick rippers in "da family  " .


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

Warp Daddy said:


> U,mmm  ok. , lets all take a deep breath. , now does anybody still wanna talk bout skiing ?  BTW nothing sexier than a woman , young woman that rips on one or two planks. Just sayin
> 
> signed
> a good man ,a good father and husband and grandfather who has several chick rippers in "da family  " .



Why does it have to be "SEXY"?!  Why can't you just respect them for their athleticism?!  Blah blah blah! Wah wah waaaaahh!!

There ladies, I got that one for you.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> I like to joke. When I put out blatant stereotypes I'm just stirring the pot.  That's why I'm so blatant about it.  So no one can mistake the sarcasm for how I really feel.
> 
> The hiring thing interests me though.  What gender was the person doing the hiring?  Did female employers also hire more men?  If so what does that say?  Also, a personal observation:  When we hire where I work, resumes are used only to see who qualifies for the job.  Once you interview we already know you are capable of performing the tasks required.  What we are looking for is, are you someone we want to work with?  Will we get along?  It's more of a personality test.  That said, perhaps many employers simply prefer to work with men.  Men generally find it easier to resolve conflict and work in teams with other men.  I've heard women say the same thing.  That they don't get along well with other women and prefer to work or hang out with men.  My point is, maybe it's not some conspiracy to keep women down.  Maybe it's just the way things are currently.  Which is to say that those views can and probably will change, but these things take time, usually generations.
> 
> ...



Leave it to AZ to compare women's suffrage to skiing/riding moguls


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Leave it to AZ to compare women's suffrage to skiing/riding moguls



I had to dumb it down for all us stupid men.


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 27, 2015)

Because it is. That is all , going skiing now. Buh bye


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## Cannonball (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ran the numbers twice.  Of the 13765 registered members of the forum,  we have 6917 members identifying as fermale and 6848 members identifying as male.  Who knew



This reflects all of the wives and girlfriends who sign up here to see what the F their husbands can possibly be spending so much time on the computer for.


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Gender roles are not slowly slowly going away. They are pretty much long gone. I would say the only areas they still exist are in the military and jobs that involve physical labor. My daughter will know that she can be anything she wants when she grows up (hell we just had a Doc Mcstuffins themed birthday). For you to assume how I raise my daughter is presumptive considering you don't know me. My mom always worked full time as a kid and worked her way up from a nurse to running a department at Children's Hospital. Men with a lot more letters and credentials next to their name report to her. I have deep respect for that.
> 
> You have corrupted the term feminism to mean something different then the definition you gave. You seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and expect employers and others to pay for the decisions that were made before our time. I have worked in IS in the past and now do other work in technology but when I was involved in the hiring process at my previous employer we always enjoyed getting women applicants. They always had more attention to detail and were better at analyzing large problems and projects. But I'm sure you will somehow take that as an attack or insult.



Less than 25% of technology jobs are held by women. Women make around 80 cents to a mans dollar for the same work. Women hold just over 5% of fortune 500 CEO positions. How is that fair? How are gender roles gone? Gender equality doesn't exist.

http://m.theatlantic.com/technology...-more-women-in-tech-the-data-prove-it/280964/

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women_CEOs_of_Fortune_500_companies


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

So what's your solution?  Companies should just give women those jobs to even things out?  How can you be so sure that other factors are not involved, and that it's just about gender?  If a woman is the best person for the job, she will get it, especially when it comes to big business.  No board of directors is going to make a man CEO when they have a woman that will make them more money. 

I personally think that's why more women aren't CEOs.  CEOs are generally heartless sociopaths that care very little for people.  Women, especially mothers, tend to be more caring and compassionate.  Those things are not conducive to making money, hence no CEO job for you.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Gender roles are not slowly slowly going away. They are pretty much long gone. I would say the only areas they still exist are in the military and jobs that involve physical labor. My daughter will know that she can be anything she wants when she grows up (hell we just had a Doc Mcstuffins themed birthday). For you to assume how I raise my daughter is presumptive considering you don't know me. My mom always worked full time as a kid and worked her way up from a nurse to running a department at Children's Hospital. Men with a lot more letters and credentials next to their name report to her. I have deep respect for that.
> 
> You have corrupted the term feminism to mean something different then the definition you gave. You seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and expect employers and others to pay for the decisions that were made before our time. I have worked in IS in the past and now do other work in technology but when I was involved in the hiring process at my previous employer we always enjoyed getting women applicants. They always had more attention to detail and were better at analyzing large problems and projects. But I'm sure you will somehow take that as an attack or insult.


They probably hire women because they only have to pay $.79 on the dollar for all that hard work :evil:

I've been a FT worker during 3 pregnancies and with 3 kids.  Your mother probably had to work 2x as hard as her male counterparts to get where she is - and in the healthcare arena - there ARE more leadership roles for women, then say engineering, high tech.  I never went the leadership route because I hate babysitting adults and don't want to turn my life over to a corporation.  So I'm a lifetime workerbee, who is quite observant and bright - and over my 20+ years in my field can see the men being promoted much easier with less qualifications and hard work.  I'm just saying, it's not all rosy.  Also...to get high up in any field takes long hours, often much travel...and tradition/genetics...whatever you want to call it usually means it's the wife who handles the home stuff while the husband works insane hours (and it's what corporate management almost expects).  When a working mother is on the same path - generally she does not have the support at home that the male counterparts have (SAHD)...so it's much more difficult to achieve...and then statistics show when they get there - they are paid alot less than the males.  I don't call this equality at all.  Personally...I couldn't give up the amount of hours need to be in leadership, VP, C-level jobs b/c I would never give up that family time...but for those women that do - it's a big sacrifice (for less $, remember   ).  Luckily today's worklife/balance is easier on working mothers (as I sit in my LR in front of woodstove working from home  ) - but until we are paid equal for the same work...and maybe given a little more "slack" if we want to mother AND go up the leadership path (because..ultimately good mothering leads to a better generation of kids)...we still have a long way to go.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

FYI folks my data was a joke.  I don't  believe the software even asks about gender when signing up.  However if someone wants to go through the member list and take a crack at guessing gender or conducting a survey have it. 

http://forums.alpinezone.com/member.php/15406-Sweeney

Male or female?


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> They probably hire women because they only have to pay $.79 on the dollar for all that hard work :evil:



Here in NYC women apparently earn $1.02 for ever $1.00 a man earns.  I would recommend coming here, but it's a pretty awful place to live, especially if you want to ski more than two days a season.


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## marebear (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> I think men just post more because we aren't busy typing other shit.  Our secretaries do it, and that's why they aren't posting.  :razz:



Biggest laugh of the thread goes TO: C-Rex. Wickedly funny.......


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> Also...to get high up in any field takes long hours, often much travel...and tradition/genetics...whatever you want to call it usually means it's the wife who handles the home stuff while the husband works insane hours (and it's what corporate management almost expects).  When a working mother is on the same path - generally she does not have the support at home that the male counterparts have (SAHD)...so it's much more difficult to achieve...and then statistics show when they get there - they are paid alot less than the males.  I don't call this equality at all.  Personally...I couldn't give up the amount of hours need to be in leadership, VP, C-level jobs b/c I would never give up that family time...but for those women that do - it's a big sacrifice



We don't see eye to eye on most of what you said but this a great point that I am with you 100%. But to change that you also have to change the stereotype of men being the breadwinner and not being the primary caregiver. I am lucky to have paternity leave but most employers do not offer it. I think women need to look at the big picture if they want to see this kind of change.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> This reflects all of the wives and girlfriends who sign up here to see what the F their husbands can possibly be spending so much time on the computer for.



That I believe


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## SkiFanE (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> We don't see eye to eye on most of what you said but this a great point that I am with you 100%. But to change that you also have to change the stereotype of men being the breadwinner and not being the primary caregiver. I am lucky to have paternity leave but most employers do not offer it. I think women need to look at the big picture if they want to see this kind of change.


Paternity leave?!  What?  How about Maternity leave?!  I got not one penny from my companies in Maternity leave.  I used accrued vacation and sick time, and had Short Term Disability for 8 weeks (cut to 6 for third kid b/c by then they no longer thought c-sections required 2 extra weeks of recovery time).  I don't know what cave you live in - but it's a rare company in the USA that gives anything to women in maternity.  And the "leave" is granted by FMLA-law...up to 12 weeks.  In Europe, women get 6-12 months full pay (varies by country)...but they also have insane taxes - I think it's Netherlands that gives 2 years paid leave, but taxes are 70% of income.  Even I am not sure I'd rather have that...

I'm as much into equality as anyone...but I also can't ignore genetics and nurturing and how men and women differ.  There are always exceptions...but I have NEVER heard a man say "I can't go back to work...I can' imagine leaving my little boo-boo all day...".... why?  All being equal...why don't men offer to stay home and let the women work?  Really...it rarely happens.  Maybe if you rub your breasts and start oohing your newborn, you'll start lactating to make it easier for these new mothers returning to work...lol.  Just saying as much as a feminist as I am - I recognize there are difference between the genders in parenting roles - some genetic, some from society.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> We don't see eye to eye on most of what you said but this a great point that I am with you 100%. But to change that you also have to change the stereotype of men being the breadwinner and not being the primary caregiver. I am lucky to have paternity leave but most employers do not offer it. I think women need to look at the big picture if they want to see this kind of change.


Also - maternity vs. paternity... carry and nurture human life for 9 months...and as Joan Rivers used to say, then "push a roast beef through your nose"...and women still aren't entitled to much from companies.


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## hammer (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> Personally...I couldn't give up the amount of hours need to be in leadership, VP, C-level jobs b/c I would never give up that family time...



That's likely why I'm a senior worker bee at age 50...I do what I can to keep to a 40 hour work week.  I'll put in the extra hours when needed but they aren't the norm.  Know the last thing I will regret when I die is that I didn't work enough hours...

My wife could never do the SAHM thing so our kids were in daycare from infancy.  Sure it would have been better for them to be at home with a parent but not if the parent was going crazy...


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

Meh. My wife is due middle of March.  I told her she can take a week off then back to work.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> Paternity leave?!  What?  How about Maternity leave?!  I got not one penny from my companies in Maternity leave.  I used accrued vacation and sick time, and had Short Term Disability for 8 weeks (cut to 6 for third kid b/c by then they no longer thought c-sections required 2 extra weeks of recovery time).  I don't know what cave you live in - but it's a rare company in the USA that gives anything to women in maternity.  And the "leave" is granted by FMLA-law...up to 12 weeks.  In Europe, women get 6-12 months full pay (varies by country)...but they also have insane taxes - I think it's Netherlands that gives 2 years paid leave, but taxes are 70% of income.  Even I am not sure I'd rather have that...
> 
> I'm as much into equality as anyone...but I also can't ignore genetics and nurturing and how men and women differ.  There are always exceptions...but I have NEVER heard a man say "I can't go back to work...I can' imagine leaving my little boo-boo all day...".... why?  All being equal...why don't men offer to stay home and let the women work?  Really...it rarely happens.  Maybe if you rub your breasts and start oohing your newborn, you'll start lactating to make it easier for these new mothers returning to work...lol.  Just saying as much as a feminist as I am - I recognize there are difference between the genders in parenting roles - some genetic, some from society.



I really can't deal with you guys. I came to your defense to point out the fact that women can't move up the corporate ladder because of having kids and being the primary caregiver. So you basically want lower standards not for woman but women with kids when it comes to moving the corporate ladder. Does that just perpetuate the stereotype that you are not equal to men and need to be given special treatment?? My point is that if you want their to be a balance of power then men should be offered the same benefits. So that a couple can decide whether the mother or the father is the primary caregiver. 

It's so funny how you all cry for equality yet you take every opportunity to point out the differences between men and women. So nurturing is not learned and I couldn't possibly do a better job than my wife? When my daughter is sick she calls for me. My wife has her own business and can't afford to take time off so I'm the one that takes time off or works from home. When he is scared or hurts herself it's dad. 

You two use way more stereotypes than any of the guys in this thread by far.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> That said, perhaps many employers simply prefer to work with men.  Men generally find it easier to resolve conflict and work in teams with other men.  *I've heard women say the same thing. * That they don't get along well with other women and *prefer to work or hang out with men.*  My point is, maybe it's not some conspiracy to keep women down.



And in this very thread.  By a woman.



Higgl said:


> *Women make around 80 cents to a mans dollar for the same work. *



This has been disproven time and time and time and time again, by multiple schools of economic theory. 

 It is complete and utter BS when controlled for life choices, behavioral activity, and satisficing decisions.  

 Women_, "only make 80% of what American men make"_, is as disproven as the geocentric earth hypothesis or bloodletting, and the only reason it's believed by the masses is because it is repeatedly "put out there" every election by politicians of one particular political party in an intentional effort to inflame women for their votes (which sadly works), because economics is not taught in US public schools. [/end rant]



SkiFanE said:


> *Paternity leave?!  What?........... In Europe, women get 6-12 months full pay (varies by country)...but they also have insane taxes*



Some of those insane European countries have recently started paid paternity leave as well, which is a small example of why their economies are going to crap.  On the bright side, however, I've been short the € for over 4 years now, and it's finally starting to really pay off.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I really can't deal with you guys. I came to your defense to point out the fact that women can't move up the corporate ladder because of having kids and being the primary caregiver. So you basically want lower standards not for woman but women with kids when it comes to moving the corporate ladder. Does that just perpetuate the stereotype that you are not equal to men and need to be given special treatment?? My point is that if you want their to be a balance of power then men should be offered the same benefits. So that a couple can decide whether the mother or the father is the primary caregiver.
> 
> It's so funny how you all cry for equality yet you take every opportunity to point out the differences between men and women. So nurturing is not learned and I couldn't possibly do a better job than my wife? When my daughter is sick she calls for me. My wife has her own business and can't afford to take time off so I'm the one that takes time off or works from home. When he is scared or hurts herself it's dad.
> 
> You two use way more stereotypes than any of the guys in this thread by far.



"IN general"...there are always exceptions.  What are stats for two family households with women making more than men?  Few...but they are there.  I completely stand by my arguments that woman and men are different...but does that mean we have to be unequal?  To be equal we must do the same/be the same as men?  We must work as hard as men are willing to move up the ladder?  MAYBE, just MAYBE if the corporate world was different - for men and women...it would be better off for the equal working.  IE - Europe...they get tons of vacations, don't have such long work days...so maybe it'd be easier for men to slow down too.  But as long as the mentality is that you need to work your ass off, travel and hand over your life to a company to succeed - working mothers will never succeed.  Because...like I said...there ARE differences between the genders, and I don't know why you think we have to be exactly the same to have equality - in my opinion, that's wrong...or else it's called "special treatment" b/c we can't live up to corporate ideals that are set for men (who have stay at home wives).  I am unique in that when I did do the SAHM gig for 18mos...I was not happy...really wanted to get out of the house - but neither do I want to work 60 hour work weeks.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 27, 2015)

hammer said:


> That's likely why I'm a senior worker bee at age 50...I do what I can to keep to a 40 hour work week.  I'll put in the extra hours when needed but they aren't the norm.  Know the last thing I will regret when I die is that I didn't work enough hours...
> 
> My wife could never do the SAHM thing so our kids were in daycare from infancy.  Sure it would have been better for them to be at home with a parent but not if the parent was going crazy...



Now that my oldest is in college - I look back at that time, and daycare...when other mothers say "I don't want to strangers to raise my children" - I think "it didn't matter"!  Really...compared to her peers, it's not like any are better/worse b/c their parents stay home or work.  I am far from a helicopter parent, I had no time, really... it shows, my kids are so independent compared to their peers.  Yeah..I went crazy at home...my husband was delighted I went back to work haha


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> IE - Europe...they get tons of vacations, don't have such long work days...so maybe it'd be easier for men to slow down too.



This applies to the rank and file.  European executives work (almost) as much as their American (and Asian) counterparts (albeit for less money (both before and after taxes)).  Running a successful business requires tremendous sacrifices from both men and women and I don't see this changing just because it would be nice to have a 9-5 job that pays well too.


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## DoublePlanker (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Meh. My wife is due middle of March.  I told her she can take a week off then back to work.



March 13 is our due date.  I get 2 weeks paternity and then 1 week vacation.   The wife gets 12 weeks maternity.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> March 13 is our due date.  I get 2 weeks paternity and then 1 week vacation.   The wife gets 12 weeks maternity.



I get 2 days and the wife gets a week then she's back to work.  I'm overriding her company's 12 week policy.   I need to be able to afford next year's season pass and that's not happening with her staying at home sitting on her ass.


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

Women only want equality when it benefits them.  Same pay, same opportunities? Sure, you'll take that.  Pay for dinner and the movie, Eff that.  Want to get married?  Gotta buy the woman a shiny expensive rock.  Getting divorced? If you have a dick get ready to get screwed.  Why, when there's a fire, do the women get to leave first and I gotta stand there like I'm not flammable?  (Anyone listen to Bill Burr?  LOL)

My big problem with all this came from my time in the Air Force.  PT tests:  Women have lower standards than men.  Why?  I understand there are biological differences but that doesn't effect how fast you run 2 miles.  And sure, you can't lift as much as a guy. Fine.  But push-up's, pull-ups, and sit-ups are all done with your own body weight and should be equal.  Why should I have to share a fox hole with a woman?  Is a 5'2", 130lb girl going to be able to carry (or even drag) a 6'2", 200lb guy with 40 lbs of gear on herself and him?  Probably not.  I'm all or equality, but equal is equal.  No grading on a curve.  If it's harder because of biological differences, too bad.  Same with anything else in life.  Don't ask for special treatment or to change the rules of the game if you really want to be "equal".  That being said, I've also served with some badass women that would never accept a boost.  They graded themselves by men's standards even if the military didn't.  And they're tear a new one into any girl who came around them making their gender look bad.  Respect is always earned.  If it's given freely, it's hollow and worthless.

While I certainly don't think that women should be pigeon-holed into gender roles, I do think that some roles exist because thousands of years of evolution have guided us into them.  I've seen some marriages that work wonderfully because either side have accepted certain roles.  It's foolish to look at a role as a bad thing just because it's "expected".


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I get 2 days and the wife gets a week then she's back to work.  I'm overriding her company's 12 week policy.   I need to be able to afford next year's season pass and that's not happening with her staying at home sitting on her ass.



Haha!  The foot has come down!

BTW, I think is a great discussion.  Many good points all around.


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> If a woman is the best person for the job, she will get it, especially when it comes to big business.  No board of directors is going to make a man CEO when they have a woman that will make them more money.




That has been proved time and time again to be just not true. If you don't believe me, walk into any college campus around the world and ask a professor who studies this kind of stuff in the psychology department.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> "IN general"...there are always exceptions.  What are stats for two family households with women making more than men?  Few...but they are there.  I completely stand by my arguments that woman and men are different...but does that mean we have to be unequal?  To be equal we must do the same/be the same as men?  We must work as hard as men are willing to move up the ladder?  MAYBE, just MAYBE if the corporate world was different - for men and women...it would be better off for the equal working.  IE - Europe...they get tons of vacations, don't have such long work days...so maybe it'd be easier for men to slow down too.  But as long as the mentality is that you need to work your ass off, travel and hand over your life to a company to succeed - working mothers will never succeed.  Because...like I said...there ARE differences between the genders, and I don't know why you think we have to be exactly the same to have equality - in my opinion, that's wrong...or else it's called "special treatment" b/c we can't live up to corporate ideals that are set for men (who have stay at home wives).  I am unique in that when I did do the SAHM gig for 18mos...I was not happy...really wanted to get out of the house - but neither do I want to work 60 hour work weeks.



I'll be honest, your claim that women are different then men so they should be treated that way sounds like a big excuse. If you think that applying the same rules to both men and women is not enough then I really don't know what to tell you. Even the NAACP won't bother with that one! If you want things to be different go make it happen. That's what is great about this country. You want a gym that only allows women? Great I wish you the best! Start a company that allows women more benefits or even an organization that promotes change to employment policies. It's easy to sit on our ass and complain about shit not getting done.


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## gmcunni (Feb 27, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> March 13 is our due date.  I get 2 weeks paternity and then 1 week vacation.   The wife gets 12 weeks maternity.





deadheadskier said:


> I get 2 days and the wife gets a week then she's back to work.  I'm overriding her company's 12 week policy.   I need to be able to afford next year's season pass and that's not happening with her staying at home sitting on her ass.



my wife gave birth to our son on a friday evening and was back at work the following Monday.  true story (but not the complete story)


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## C-Rex (Feb 27, 2015)

So these professors can see alternate timelines for our universe?  How can they know that the best person wasn't the one hired?  How do they know that the woman candidate would have made them more money but the man got hired anyway?  They don't.  Identical resumes do not make people equal.  A better resume doesn't even necessarily make a person better for a job.  I have no doubt that sexism exists and that women are not hired in some situations specifically because of their gender, but I think it's blamed far more often than it should be.  Perceptions take time to change.  Show that you can do the job well and, over time, more women will be hired. In another 3 or 4 generations I'd be willing to bet that the statistics change dramatically. Don't forget that the generations in charge mostly grew up when women were far less common in the workplace.  You just can't expect it to change overnight.


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

Yes! You are exactly right C-Rex. That's all I'm arguing here. In three or four generations, yes, the workplace is bound to be more equal because yes the attitudes of those in charge today are oftentimes anti woman because it is their biased perception that because they are a woman, they can't do the job as well. That was what I was trying to argue with that point.

And there are jobs where some women can't do it as well as some men, for example a heavy lifting manufacturing job. However, for something like technology jobs, or scientific research, etc, women are just as proficient as men but men get promoted easier, paid more, and hired more because of the attitudes of those in charge. It might not even be conscious either! The reason those attitudes exist, in part, is because of the implicit stereotype associations everyone has about women in the workplace. These stereotypes need to go away in order for those associations to go away and this thread is NOT helping that. You are in fact perpetuating the stereotypes. 

Yes perceptions don't change overnight, however, how are they to change at all when people are screaming incredibly sexist stereotypes to the high heavens on this thread? People reading this thread and hearing those opinions are influenced by it and overtime when they grow up in a world with those opinions begin to take them on themselves. Thus it becomes their opinion that women can't perform as well and whatnot. Hence why "like a girl" means something fierce to a little 4 year old girl, but to that same girl as a 17 year old "like a girl" has a negative association.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> *  No board of directors is going to make a man CEO when they have a woman that will make them more money. *





Higgl said:


> *That has been proved time and time again to be just not true.*





*Liberal round belief 1) * Corporations only care about money, and businesses will do whatever they can to make more money.

*Liberal square belief 2) *Corporations pay women 80% of what men make, and will usually hire less capable men than a woman more capable of leading the business to financial success.

Truly amazing.

Even more remarkable when one considers that labor is a businesses #1 expense.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> Yes! You are exactly right C-Rex. That's all I'm arguing here. In three or four generations, yes, the workplace is bound to be more equal because yes the attitudes of those in charge today are oftentimes anti woman because it is their biased perception that because they are a woman, they can't do the job as well. That was what I was trying to argue with that point.
> 
> And there are jobs where some women can't do it as well as some men, for example a heavy lifting manufacturing job. However, for something like technology jobs, or scientific research, etc, women are just as proficient as men but men get promoted easier, paid more, and hired more because of the attitudes of those in charge. It might not even be conscious either! The reason those attitudes exist, in part, is because of the implicit stereotype associations everyone has about women in the workplace. These stereotypes need to go away in order for those associations to go away and this thread is NOT helping that. You are in fact perpetuating the stereotypes.
> 
> Yes perceptions don't change overnight, however, how are they to change at all when people are screaming incredibly sexist stereotypes to the high heavens on this thread? People reading this thread and hearing those opinions are influenced by it and overtime when they grow up in a world with those opinions begin to take them on themselves. Thus it becomes their opinion that women can't perform as well and whatnot. Hence why "like a girl" means something fierce to a little 4 year old girl, but to that same girl as a 17 year old "like a girl" has a negative association.



I think most people hear agree that both men and woman should be treated equal but arguing that to be equal women have to be treated differently is wrong. That is a much more confusing message


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

Why am I saying we are supposed to treat women differently? When did I say that?


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

Let me ask a simple question to all the women asking for equality. Do you put the toilet seat back up after you pee?


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

rocks860 said:


> Let me ask a simple question to all the women asking for equality. Do you put the toilet seat back up after you pee?



Do you put it down?


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> *Liberal round belief 1) * Corporations only care about money, and businesses will do whatever they can to make more money.
> 
> *Liberal square belief 2) *Corporations pay women 80% of what men make, and will usually hire less capable men than a woman more capable of leading the business to financial success.
> 
> ...



http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
Affects women without children too.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/27/news/economy/global-gender-pay-gap/


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> Do you put it down?



Yes I do out of respect and safety concerns for my girlfriend plunging into the bowl. Now answer my question


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> And just what exactly do you think feminism is? Feminism is striving for and believing in gender equality, nothing more.



That's one way to look at it. Another way to describe feminism would be a mentality of perpetual victimhood, piggybacking on the worst elements of social marxism and political correctness aimed at shaming people with traditional values. Labeling people as "Sexist" "Bigot" "Misogynist" etc whenever possible (not that it has to be true). Pretending to care about the plight of women although usually ignoring parts of the world where women endure real suffering (a lot of Muslim nations especially) where it would not be politically correct to make any criticism.

And then distorting reality to the extent that killing unborn children is "pro-choice". Using terms like "war on women" to describe those who would like to protect unborn women (and men) from being killed, at least whenever possible. Distorting reality again by using the absurd 77 cents per dollar figure which is one of the most debunked stats ever introduced.

And then on top of that holding a lot of resentments against men, the nuclear family, the "patriarchy".

I'm ashamed to say I used to call myself a feminist before I realized it's not at all about equality. A good feminist is usually just an annoying, politically correct preachy liberal whose dystopian fantasy would be a nightmare for most reasonable people who don't frame every issue as oppressed vs oppressor.

A bad feminist is someone who's become a bigot in the name of fighting bigotry.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

Regarding the pay gap... just to play fair here I'll quote an article from the Huffington Post.

"Wage Gap Debunked ... By Feminists!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> That's one way to look at it. Another way to describe feminism would be a mentality of perpetual victimhood, piggybacking on the worst elements of social marxism and political correctness aimed at shaming people with traditional values. Labeling people as "Sexist" "Bigot" "Misogynist" etc whenever possible (not that it has to be true). Pretending to care about the plight of women although usually ignoring parts of the world where women endure real suffering (a lot of Muslim nations especially) where it would not be politically correct to make any criticism.
> 
> And then distorting reality to the extent that killing unborn children is "pro-choice". Using terms like "war on women" to describe those who would like to protect unborn women (and men) from being killed, at least whenever possible. Distorting reality again by using the absurd 77 cents per dollar figure which is one of the most debunked stats ever introduced.
> 
> ...



+1


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> my wife gave birth to our son on a friday evening and was back at work the following Monday.  true story (but not the complete story)



Wow.  That's the quickest turn around I've heard of.  So are you saying I'm being a little soft on my wife and I should send her back to work sooner?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> Affects women without children too.
> 
> http://www.aauw.org/research/the-sim...ender-pay-gap/



Oh, well, I mean, if the American Association of University Women says it's so, then I guess there can "be no debate" here.  

Surely it couldn't be because women tend to: choose lower paying fields, have babies, have been demonstrated to not negotiate as well a men, have been shown to not ask for raises often (if ever) as men, often _choose _to work fewer hours than men, interrupt careers and take more time off (often years), and a myriad of other logical factors that in numerous studies have shown that when extrapolated over millions of American male & female workers BLS data completely demonstrate that the "Gender Pay Gap" is a total political farce.

Besides, what chance do Nobel Prize winning Economic laureates who've proven the Gender Pay Gap to be due to life choices and conscious decisions have in the face of the American Association of University Women (whoever the hell they are)?

If you genuinely believe that women make 77¢, or 79¢, or 80¢ (or whatever the figure is the propagandists are currently using in 2015), you owe it to yourself to learn the truth.  You dont realize it, but you're essentially arguing that the earth is 2000 years ago and that evolution is a fraud (I intentionally used a example liberals love to use).


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> *"Wage Gap Debunked ... By Feminists!"*
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html



Look who show up in that article, our new friends, the AAUW!

And even they, shown to be intentionally manipulating the data to desperately try to show a "Gender Pay Gap", could only arrive at a touch over 6¢.

My favorite part of that article?



> Furthermore,* the AAUW's 6.6 cents includes some large legitimate wage  differences masked by over-broad occupational categories.* For example,*  its researchers count "social science" as one college major and report  that, among such majors, women earned only 83 percent of what men  earned. That may sound unfair... until you consider that "social  science" includes both economics and sociology majors.*



ROTFLMAO

And _that_ folks, is how propaganda works.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 27, 2015)

Holy Chit did this thread make turn.  This is now the worst thread going...


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

This is worse than a ten page highway star killington rant


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## marebear (Feb 27, 2015)

"Robbie" is probably halfway to Kton.....


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

Or pound town


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## Higgl (Feb 27, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, well, I mean, if the American Association of University Women says it's so, then I guess there can "be no debate" here.
> 
> Surely it couldn't be because women tend to: choose lower paying fields, have babies, have been demonstrated to not negotiate as well a men, have been shown to not ask for raises often (if ever) as men, often _choose _to work fewer hours than men, interrupt careers and take more time off (often years), and a myriad of other logical factors that in numerous studies have shown that when extrapolated over millions of American male & female workers BLS data completely demonstrate that the "Gender Pay Gap" is a total political farce.
> 
> ...



I mean let's not even talk about the CNN article because that's not a reputable source at all... 

Also your view of liberals is about forty years out of date. Saying evolution is a fraud is not going to make anyone angry who has gone to high school.

I didn't mean for this to degrade into an issues debate about wage gaps. I'm much more concerned about the sexist stereotypes that this thread began with.

For every article that gets cited debunking the wage gap anyone could cite an article debunking the debunk. We're not solving the debate on this thread. We could talk about Europe, studies done and whatever but there's no point.

I'm leaving you, BG, with your anachronistic, sexist, head in the sand, overly wealthy Princeton snob views and I'm taking my whiney, dramatic, preaching liberal views and going back to skiing.

I would just beg all of you to watch what you say when you make women bashing jokes or whatever because perceptions are affected by what your generation believes in stereotypes and killing the confidence and power that a little girl has in the phrase "like a girl" isn't funny at all. Gender stereotypes exist because we make them exist.

And Rocks860, I'm a dude, so ask a woman and see what she says in that debate.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

Hopefully robbie successfully made it to Killington and had a great time (and isn't part of a human garment).


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> I didn't mean for this to degrade into an issues debate about wage gaps.....
> *For every article that gets cited debunking the wage gap anyone could cite an article debunking the debunk. We're not solving the debate *on this thread.



No, see, that's just it - this isn't a topic with a "debate" anymore than you'd "debate" gravity isn't real. 

 There is no _"80% of men's pay"_ gap, regardless of how many times you're been lied to and swallowed it down with sugar.   

 The very "source" that you posted (which turned out to be a left-wing political group) was shown to:
A) Not be able to come up with anything remotely approaching 80%, even though they'd certainly "like" to
B) Intentionally fabricate and misled with the way they carved out the data

Your entire argument is completely devoid of anything resembling logic. 

 Hell, businesses should just lay off all their male employees and hire women.  Net income will SOAR!




Higgl said:


> I'm leaving you, BG, with your anachronistic, sexist, head in the sand, overly wealthy Princeton snob views and I'm taking my whiney, dramatic, preaching liberal views and going back to skiing.



This guy sure seems to know an awful lot about every poster here.  No stereotyping, right?

And please point out ONE "sexist" thing I've said in this entire thread.  The only thing I've called out here is your naively blind acceptance of an intentional political lie.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

Higgl said:


> I would just beg all of you to watch what you say



You better watch what you do to me
Don't get carried away
Girl, if you can do better than me
Go, yea go, but remember

Good love is hard to find
Good love is hard to find
You got lucky, babe
You got lucky, babe
When I found you

You put a hand on my cheek
And then you turned your eyes away
If you don't feel complete
If I don't take you all of the way then
Go, yea go, but remember

Good love is hard to find
Good love is hard to find
You got lucky, babe
You got lucky, babe
When I found you

Yea go, just go, but remember
Good love is hard to find
Good love is hard to find
You got lucky, babe
You got lucky, babe
When I found you


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Women are generally uninterested by message boards unless you are discussing weddings, babies, decorating, party planning or preferably all of the above.



Do you now see why you are a sexist pig and how wrong you are?

Women wish to discuss none of those things and this thread is the proof.

What do women want to discuss??


Gender Equality!!


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> You better watch what you do to me
> Don't get carried away
> Girl, if you can do better than me
> Go, yea go, but remember
> ...



Frankly I find the the use of the word babe to be highly sexist and derogatory and I demand you cease and desist immediately


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## Tin (Feb 27, 2015)

It's a shame some people in this thread have the right to vote and procreate.


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

Tin said:


> It's a shame some people in this thread have the right to vote and procreate.



Oh come on Scotty isn't that bad


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

Wow all this time and Higgl is a guy....this is even more awkward


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## Tin (Feb 27, 2015)

He was on to something just not the best at constructing his argument.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, see, that's just it - this isn't a topic with a "debate" anymore than you'd "debate" gravity isn't real.
> 
> There is no _"80% of men's pay"_ gap, regardless of how many times you're been lied to and swallowed it down with sugar.



You do this ALL THE TIME dude.

Just because you believe one study over another study, doesn't mean your study is anymore "FACT" than an opposing view.  

I know it's near impossible for you to believe, but your Conservative heroes don't have a monopoly on the truth.  

On this particular issue, I haven't read either study, so don't take this comment as me siding with the liberal side.  

 My only take on the matter is that I hope companies do their best to operate with equal treatment as a core value.  I know most of the companies I've worked for have.  I can only recall one where the difference in pay was glaring.  In one pay discrepancy situation I had a female supervisor working for me who had been with the company for 15 years and she was getting paid less than a newly hired male supervisor to work in the same function.  I personally tried to get her pay raised to at least the same level as the newly hired male.  Realistically, she should have been paid more due to tenure and having equal if not superior skills.  I was told no, that the new hire received the higher compensation as part of the recruitment process; it was a cost of doing business.  I get that, but the new hire had no more talent or experience than his co-worker and it's not that hard to recruit a $14 hour supervisor in the hospitality business.  That experience definitely rubbed me the wrong way.  I ended up leaving because of it and other nefarious behaviors by my director.  Not before I took the jerk down on my way out the door though.


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## Tin (Feb 27, 2015)

http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2009/09/23/0146167209346170.short


It would be nice to stop seeing both sides picking Huffpost, Fox, etc. People give both liberals and conservatives bad names.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm pretty sure ALEX JONES INFOWARS has a wealth of material on the topic :smile:


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## Not Sure (Feb 27, 2015)

LOL...All this from someone looking for a ride :argue:


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You do this ALL THE TIME dude.*  Just because you believe one study over another study, doesn't mean your study is anymore "FACT" than an opposing view.   **On this particular issue, I haven't read either study*, so don't take this comment as me siding with the liberal side.



No, I don't, "dude" - and this shouldn't even be a political issue, it's (very) commonly accepted economic fact.   It has nothing to do with conservatism or liberalism or any other preferred "ism", it's math & economics.

  In 2015, you need to "study" this about as much as you need to study the temperature at which h2o freezes.

 And it genuinely, genuinely, saddens me, that many Americans know so little about finance & economics that they actually believe (this amazes me) that women commonly make 77¢ on the $1 that men make for the same job.   It's mind-boggling.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

yup, you're right dude.  always right.  

economic fact - lulz


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 27, 2015)

Just back from a great afternoon of skiing , a mini tune up. Forthis weekends venture to Whiteface . Mountain was sunny 15 degrees , really great snow ".....SURE GLAD I SKIED AND DITCHED THIS SHIT STORM :beer:


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

Nice.  Have fun at Whiteface Warp


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

BG is actually right on this one. I researched it both during my feminist days and again after I repented from a form of self-hatred I refer to as "male feminism".

The 77 cent or 80 cent figure is based on laughable logic. Not even taking into account different career choices. Obviously not taking into account the greater male preference for jobs that are actually dangerous and lead to deaths. Obviously not taking into account that mothers are best suited to be with infants and very young children (if there must be a choice in the matter).

Equal pay for equal work is what we should be after (and we are seeing 97%+ parity if you measure it by that, in some cases over 100%). That's not at all what the antiquated "statistics" Obama and the feminist league are still pushing. If we want to play by their rules we might as well keep punting that football down the road forever.

The one thing I learned from being a male feminist -- and now repenting -- NOTHING will ever satisfy them.

Fortunately I've also realized that most women don't identify as feminist and there's lots of great women out there -- and don't be deceived these are the majority of women! -- who don't get sucked into this whole victim complex. Those are the women I've decided I'll primarily defend, as is my honor and duty to do so as a man.

Whiners, complainers, blame-everyone-else'ers -- I was once one too, I understand the mentality. But that's not how respect is earned.

And Obama and the United Nations rallying so hard behind feminism even if their main points are based on incredibly spurious logic and "statistics"... that should tell you something about the goals of socialism and one world government in general. Reduce people's ability to engage in logic. Narrow the discourse. Separate dissenters (or even people who failed to pay close enough attention the newest PC rules of language) and shame them.

We should be able to see where this is going. We aren't exactly immune to history.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm sure it's an exaggeration, but I wouldn't go throwing "economic fact" talk that pay is equal.  I highly doubt given the history women have had in this country.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 27, 2015)

Yeaaaa some of these views are a little too conservative even for this Republican. 

I feel like you might agree with the Republican who thinks a woman's body will biologically reject a baby in instances of rape


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## marebear (Feb 27, 2015)

"Robbie" is now hanging in the Lookout having a cold one and telling her Alpine Zone story to a few locals who happen to be K zoners. All are amused.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Yeaaaa some of these views are a little too conservative even for this Republican



Welcome to the world of free thought!


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## steamboat1 (Feb 27, 2015)

Black women have it bad.


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## gladerider (Feb 28, 2015)

wow. what happened. 15 pages on this thread? did the OP ever come back?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure it's an exaggeration, but I wouldn't go throwing "economic fact" talk that pay is equal. I highly doubt given the history women have had in this country.



Nobody said it's precisely equal (which would be highly statistically unlikely in any data set involving millions of individual points).  The myriad economic research on this issue shows it's approximately equal to approximately 5% down at very worst, but even the worst-case scenarios admit it's possible it's very close to equal and they potentially didn't control enough.  That's your approximate spread based on scores of accredited research in this area, which to my mind are more valid than your "high doubts".   

 The whole 77% thing (which the president currently uses in speeches) is a complete and total lie, with absolutely no legs to stand on.  It's intentionally arrived at by looking at illogical apples to oranges data, which no economist would do.  This is known; it is not some "theory" or "biased political opinion".  Not that you should need the ghosts of Milton Friedman, Adam Smith, or JMK to investigate this, common sense and 3 minutes of thought should lead you to realize the 77% (or 79% or 80%) figure for the same work is BS.  

If you want a good laugh, look into how they "logically" arrive at that 77% figure.  _Then_ come back to this thread and post a reply.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 28, 2015)

Close thread


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## abc (Mar 1, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Close thread


I guess this forum software doesn't support moving a thread to a different sub-forum that discuss politics. 

This thread has nothing to do with skiing.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2015)

I can move it to misc. forum I guess.   We typically don't allow political discussions on the forums.  This topic IMO isn't political in the sense of dems vs   republicans discussion.


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## The Sneak (Mar 1, 2015)

8 pages and no pics. DIW...

I wish there were more chicks who ripped. I work with one, actually. She thinks I'm retarded!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 2, 2015)

marebear said:


> "Robbie" is now hanging in the Lookout having a cold one and telling her Alpine Zone story to a few locals who happen to be K zoners. All are amused.




So you hang out with old losers?


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## ScottySkis (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I can move it to misc. forum I guess.   We typically don't allow political discussions on the forums.  This topic IMO isn't political in the sense of dems vs   republicans discussion.



No politics except for you know


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## Harvey (Mar 3, 2015)




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