# Sunday River, ME: 10/31/09



## riverc0il (Oct 31, 2009)

Tough deciding between today or tomorrow. Sunday looked like better weather. But I figured with today's warmth that Sunday Punch would be much better today than Sunday. Boy was I right as the patches were hit hard. Also, skiing on my birthday and putting another hash mark on the calendar for October were motivating factors as well.

The college kid crowd was out en force today, probably all picking up their season passes. Without the college kid crowd, it would have been very light traffic. I would say over 2/3s of the skiers were college kids.

Skied five runs between 10a-2p with a long break for lunch. Line at the mid-station was mind boggling so I kept "skiing" top to bottom. Lower Sunday Punch was completely done but patches got me down almost to the flats with a LOT of grass skiing in between the patches. Says one dude to me: "Do you have a lot of skis or do you just not care about your bases?" To which I answered "Both! I have five pairs but I treat them all equally." :lol:

T2 was nice in the morning but got the random piles condition going later in the day. Upper Punch was a hoot with lots of variable conditions and obstacles. And the patch skiing was fun. Didn't have to wait for a lift line all day!

:beer:

For tomorrow, expect the patches to be almost completely gone. Not only was it warm but lots of people trying to milk it were side sliding and making be hockey stop turns instead of straight lining it and checking speed with tight turns. It was notable reduction in snow available throughout each of my five runs. About 500 yards down hike if you didn't patch it.


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## riverc0il (Oct 31, 2009)

Forgot to mention that I ran into snowmonster while unloading the Triple. Great to ski with you again, sir! Hope you had a good second half of the day after we parted ways.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2009)

nice

must be a treat to be able to ski on your birthday.  Doubt it's something I'll ever see on September 22nd.


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## Newpylong (Oct 31, 2009)

Can't even believe they managed to open again...


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## riverc0il (Oct 31, 2009)

T2 was actually just as good if not better than their first weekend. Less total snow but more consistent product. It actually skied really nice in the morning and started "mounding up" only just a little in the afternoon. I am impressed they kept Punch open. Though the lines for the mid-station would have gone up to the last pitch of T2 if they had not. But still, they get kudos for giving skiers the option of patch skiing and down hiking. Most resorts would tell their customers to line up because either they don't want the liability or they know better than individuals do what is skiable and what is not.

A *few more details* posted over on my site with *a few photos*, including a pair of snowmonster, in the gallery. Sorry for the poor quality pics as I am dealing with my old camera on backup duty until I can replace the camera that my dog ate.


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## Johnskiismore (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm in for late tomorrow morning, but my girlfriend after looking at the pictures is out.  Oh well, skiing solo!


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## snowmonster (Oct 31, 2009)

Great skiing with you today, rivercoil, and Happy birthday! I didn't know. I should have gotten you a beer! Thanks for the pics and I look forward to skiing with you again this season.


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## Vortex (Nov 1, 2009)

Missed both of you guys.  I heard from Johnskismore. Missed him on the hill.   Next weekend for sure.  
They will make snow this week and we will be back at next weekend.   Sat was much better than Sunday.  Just amazing they kept it going for 3 weeks.  I have 6 days in and could not be happier.


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## bvibert (Nov 1, 2009)

Nice TR.  I'm really impressed with SR's commitment this early season, they definitely get it.  I hope the get a few snowmaking windows during the week so they can keep going next weekend!

BTW, you need to update your sig Steve.


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## riverc0il (Nov 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> BTW, you need to update your sig Steve.


Done! I am out of practice!

Regarding SR's commitment to early season... I can foresee Killington loosing a lot of their Boston based clientèle to the River. Killington just won't be able to do top to bottom in October unless they get a freak snow storm. I have never seen October temps as low as they were this month. If they could not get it done this year, it will never happen. You did not see an official rep from the River on AZ pumping up the crowd and hinting. Nope, SR put their money where Killington's mouth is and let the product speak for itself. Mucho respect to the River and I hope it pays dividends for them this season and down the road.


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## snowmonster (Nov 1, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> I can foresee Killington loosing a lot of their Boston based clientèle to the River..



Me, for example. You also have to love their commitment to late season skiing. River was open until the last weekend in April. Then Sugarloaf (also on the same pass) was open for the first weekend in May.


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## snowmonster (Nov 2, 2009)

Some more pictures of Halloween at the River:

Foliage on the lower mountain:






The snow appears as soon as you're ready to get off the chair:





Rivercoil at the River:









Good cover on T2:









You've been warned:





Lower Sunday Punch:


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## Greg (Nov 2, 2009)

snowmonster said:


>



Pole looks a little bent. 



snowmonster said:


> You've been warned:



Nice! More mountains need to use signs and leave sketchy terrain open.


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## bvibert (Nov 2, 2009)

snowmonster said:


> You've been warned:



That sign is awesome, especially with the small patches of snow in the background!  I love that they give you the choice. :beer:


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## Riverskier (Nov 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> That sign is awesome, especially with the small patches of snow in the background!  I love that they give you the choice. :beer:



Cool in principle, but also made all the difference in the world. They can only download 3 people for every 10 chairs, so the downloading line took forever. I skied until the snow ran out and had a quick hike to the base. Beats standing around in line.


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## bvibert (Nov 2, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> Cool in principle, but also made all the difference in the world. They can only download 3 people for every 10 chairs, so the downloading line took forever. I skied until the snow ran out and had a quick hike to the base. Beats standing around in line.



I would have opted for skiing and hiking down instead of waiting in line too.


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## Geoff (Nov 3, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Done! I am out of practice!
> 
> Regarding SR's commitment to early season... I can foresee Killington loosing a lot of their Boston based clientèle to the River. Killington just won't be able to do top to bottom in October unless they get a freak snow storm. I have never seen October temps as low as they were this month. If they could not get it done this year, it will never happen. You did not see an official rep from the River on AZ pumping up the crowd and hinting. Nope, SR put their money where Killington's mouth is and let the product speak for itself. Mucho respect to the River and I hope it pays dividends for them this season and down the road.



Killington has opened with top to bottom in October before.   This was all about the will to do it at Killington, not the technical feasability.

I agree 100% with your point about Killington and the Boston market.   When I first started skiing Killington, the parking lot was 1/3 Mass plates.   It looks nothing like that now.   I believe you can attribute the loss of market share at Killington almost 100% to their losses in the Boston market.   For people in the metro-NYC tri-state area, there aren't a whole helluva lot of alternatives.   In Boston, the Boyne product is way more compelling for most.   

Killington could certainly do something about their season length.   I still don't think the current management team "gets it".   In their defense, there are a lot of State of Vermont-created reasons that make Killington non-competitive.   Act 68 state school tax that drives up prices for housing.   All kinds of business taxes that drive up the cost of everything else.


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## riverc0il (Nov 3, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I agree 100% with your point about Killington and the Boston market.   When I first started skiing Killington, the parking lot was 1/3 Mass plates.   It looks nothing like that now.   I believe you can attribute the loss of market share at Killington almost 100% to their losses in the Boston market.   For people in the metro-NYC tri-state area, there aren't a whole helluva lot of alternatives.   In Boston, the Boyne product is way more compelling for most.


One other issue, completely unrelated to current management, is the ASC A41 pass probably sent a lot of MA skiers to Killington who may have been primarily based out of ME and NH mountains (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, and Attitash were all in the ASC stable). So the reduction in MA skier visits to Killington could have been due to the demise of a cheap multi-mountain season pass.

Though if the River is perceived as having better service and better product and caring more for the dedicated skier, I think they will continue to draw off of refuges from other mountains given word of mouth (for those that don't care too much about this early season offering stuff) and for money where the mouth is (for those that do).


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Nov 3, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> One other issue, completely unrelated to current management, is the ASC A41 pass probably sent a lot of MA skiers to Killington who may have been primarily based out of ME and NH mountains (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, and Attitash were all in the ASC stable). So the reduction in MA skier visits to Killington could have been due to the demise of a cheap multi-mountain season pass.



isn't the decision not to offer a more competitive pass completely _related[/I to current management?_


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## riverc0il (Nov 4, 2009)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> isn't the decision not to offer a more competitive pass completely _related[/I to current management?_


_
Not at all. The decision was not to "not" offer a current pass but to "not" offer a pass that is below market value. ASC tried to make up margin with volume. Clearly, it was not a sustainable model to under price your season pass for one resort, let alone for half a dozen. 

The current management of some of the former ASC properties (Boyne resorts, including Sugarloaf and Sunday River and then adding Loon) were able to triple the cost on half as many resorts and be more successful than ASC. So Killington's pass price should not be a consideration for why skiers may opt for an even more expensive pass with Boyne. Killington's new management could in no way be sustainable by continuing to offer below market value season passes. If ASC could not make it up with a bunch of big resorts, Killington is never going to have the volume by itself._


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## skiadikt (Nov 4, 2009)

a nothing question but curious about the position of the snow guns on these pics. is that their normal location or have they been moved a bit to the center of the trail for early season. k used to do that on ol in old days. they'd temporarily mount the guns in the middle of the trail and blow skiers right first before pulling them back to their "normal" position. looks like a similar setup.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Killington has opened with top to bottom in October before.   This was all about the will to do it at Killington, not the technical feasability.
> 
> I agree 100% with your point about Killington and the Boston market.   When I first started skiing Killington, the parking lot was 1/3 Mass plates.   It looks nothing like that now.   I believe you can attribute the loss of market share at Killington almost 100% to their losses in the Boston market.   For people in the metro-NYC tri-state area, there aren't a whole helluva lot of alternatives.   In Boston, the Boyne product is way more compelling for most.
> 
> Killington could certainly do something about their season length.   I still don't think the current management team "gets it".   In their defense, there are a lot of State of Vermont-created reasons that make Killington non-competitive.   Act 68 state school tax that drives up prices for housing.   All kinds of business taxes that drive up the cost of everything else.



I'm sure a fair amount of NY / NJ folks have opted for Okemo as well.  Back in Killington's hay day, Okemo was doing 2-300K skier visits.  They now do about 600K.  I'd imagine at least 100K of those are Kton expats. 

I would say CT is Okemo's largest market based upon my experience there, but plenty of New YJ folks too.


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## Riverskier (Nov 4, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Not at all. The decision was not to "not" offer a current pass but to "not" offer a pass that is below market value. ASC tried to make up margin with volume. Clearly, it was not a sustainable model to under price your season pass for one resort, let alone for half a dozen.
> 
> The current management of some of the former ASC properties (Boyne resorts, including Sugarloaf and Sunday River and then adding Loon) were able to triple the cost on half as many resorts and be more successful than ASC. So Killington's pass price should not be a consideration for why skiers may opt for an even more expensive pass with Boyne. Killington's new management could in no way be sustainable by continuing to offer below market value season passes. If ASC could not make it up with a bunch of big resorts, Killington is never going to have the volume by itself.



I agree with this. However, I have to point out that Boyne's passes are no where near triple the cost of what ASC sold them for. The early season price was $599 for silver and $899 for Gold. A couple/few hundred more than ASC, but not double, let alone triple the cost. Also, I believe these prices are actually lower than Killington's.


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## Riverskier (Nov 4, 2009)

skiadikt said:


> a nothing question but curious about the position of the snow guns on these pics. is that their normal location or have they been moved a bit to the center of the trail for early season. k used to do that on ol in old days. they'd temporarily mount the guns in the middle of the trail and blow skiers right first before pulling them back to their "normal" position. looks like a similar setup.



Those guns have been moved to the center of the trail for early season.


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## skiadikt (Nov 4, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> Those guns have been moved to the center of the trail for early season.



that's what i thought. thanks.


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## riverc0il (Nov 4, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> I agree with this. However, I have to point out that Boyne's passes are no where near triple the cost of what ASC sold them for. The early season price was $599 for silver and $899 for Gold. A couple/few hundred more than ASC, but not double, let alone triple the cost. Also, I believe these prices are actually lower than Killington's.


Maybe my memory is foggy, but I though the ASC pass was under $400 or so at one point? And I thought Boyne any mountain any time was over a $1000? I could very well not be recalling correctly.


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## bigbog (Nov 6, 2009)

ASC's last pass-pricing was the $390+_withBlackouts = the best thinking they'd ever done...ie as the ship is sinking they decide to order the Coast Guard Approved deck chairs.  Boyne, in times of downsizing us above 40, turned the $390+ into a M-F pass and made everyone who simply wants to ski the wkends on-resort pay the full Silver rate...while offering every conceivable package to students only.  Will always be a warm place in my heart for Boyne's pricing department..LOL


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## Trekchick (Nov 7, 2009)

Thanks for sharin'

The snow conditions looks a little like my last day skiing in April.
S'all good, since I'd ski first day and last day any time!


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