# Tour de France



## tjf67 (Jul 9, 2009)

Should Armstrong be the puller or the pulley.   I guess tomorrow will determine the rest of the race.    Them there hills are going to break some backs.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 9, 2009)

Isn't he usually the puller??? I remeber watching him friggin smoke those dudes once they got to the mountains---dudes amazing.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 9, 2009)

Since he's been out of it for 4 year the question is if he still can. He also has a more recent Tour champ on his team, so they have yet to determine who is the "man" as far as this race goes.


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## tjf67 (Jul 9, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Isn't he usually the puller??? I remeber watching him friggin smoke those dudes once they got to the mountains---dudes amazing.




The team usually escorts there best chance for most of the race then sets them off to win.  He has the favorite on his team so there is some question as to whether he should be out front or hanging back.  One of them are not going to be happy in a day or two with the decision.    I  am rooting for Lance.  best thing for the tour 

I


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't understand how the team thing works..I thought bike racing is an individual sport..


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## marcski (Jul 9, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I don't understand how the team thing works..I thought bike racing is an individual sport..



You'd be surprised to learn how important a good, strong team is especially in one of the Grand Tours. There is no way one can win a Grand Tour these days without the support of a team.  

My hypothesis is that the importance of a team increases in line with the length of the race....the longer the race, (in terms of stages) the more important is the team.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 9, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> The team usually escorts there best chance for most of the race then sets them off to win.  He has the favorite on his team so there is some question as to whether he should be out front or hanging back.  One of them are not going to be happy in a day or two with the decision.    *I  am rooting for Lance*.  best thing for the tour
> 
> I



Yup, he's kinda the Favre of cycling


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## Marc (Jul 9, 2009)

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't think Lance has a realistic chance against Contador for the overall.

I'll be happy if he's top 10 in GC when the dust settles on the 26th.

I kinda wish Lance didn't stage the comeback, but I understand why he did.  Or at least, why I think he did.  And if that's ignorant, I'm happy with my bliss.


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## mondeo (Jul 9, 2009)

Marc said:


> I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't think Lance has a realistic chance against Contador for the overall.
> 
> I'll be happy if he's top 10 in GC when the dust settles on the 26th.
> 
> I kinda wish Lance didn't stage the comeback, but I understand why he did.  Or at least, why I think he did.  And if that's ignorant, I'm happy with my bliss.


I just don't know what his chances are. The guy's genes are suited for biking like Phelps' are for swimming. I wouldn't be surprised if he wins or drops out.


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## Marc (Jul 9, 2009)

Contador's climbing, in my mind, will be the difference.  He already put 0:40 on Armstrong in a 10 miles hilly TT... granted Contador went second and had the benefit of knowing the splits... but still.

If you watched two years ago when AC won... the accelerations he pulled on the steep hills against Rasmussen were almost other worldly.  Combine that with how long Lance has been out, and you look at Lance's performance in the Giro.. I just don't think he's got a serious shot at the win.


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## tjf67 (Jul 10, 2009)

Marc said:


> I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't think Lance has a realistic chance against Contador for the overall.
> 
> I'll be happy if he's top 10 in GC when the dust settles on the 26th.
> 
> I kinda wish Lance didn't stage the comeback, but I understand why he did.  Or at least, why I think he did.  And if that's ignorant, I'm happy with my bliss.




Me neither but it sure has mad eht tour more interesting to the person who does not care that much.  
Are you in a fantacy league for the tour?


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## Marc (Jul 10, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Me neither but it sure has mad eht tour more interesting to the person who does not care that much.
> Are you in a fantacy league for the tour?



Nah.  I only really know anything about the GC contenders.  And little at that.  I think I'd suck pretty hard at a fantasy team.


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## mlctvt (Jul 10, 2009)

marcski said:


> You'd be surprised to learn how important a good, strong team is especially in one of the Grand Tours. There is no way one can win a Grand Tour these days without the support of a team.
> 
> My hypothesis is that the importance of a team increases in line with the length of the race....the longer the race, (in terms of stages) the more important is the team.



Exactly, look what happened to Cadel Evans after the team time trial. He went from a top 10 placement to something like 43rd. One man does not make a team no mater how good he is.


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## SkiDork (Jul 10, 2009)

how exactly does the team thing work?  Do they all ride together until close to the end, and then sring the rabbit?  Do they block other teams?  What exactly is the strategy?


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## tjf67 (Jul 10, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> how exactly does the team thing work?  Do they all ride together until close to the end, and then sring the rabbit?  Do they block other teams?  What exactly is the strategy?



they will pull him along in the draft.  Keep track of what they are doing so they dont take off and hurt themselves.   It would not be outside the realm to box the competition in to slow them a bit that is rare.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 10, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> they will pull him along in the draft.  Keep track of what they are doing so they dont take off and hurt themselves.   It would not be outside the realm to box the competition in to slow them a bit that is rare.



so the others on the team aren't competitors..more like an entourage???


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## tjf67 (Jul 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> so the others on the team aren't competitors..more like an entourage???




Exactly.  that is the contreversy.  Lance is supposed to be support and he is making a run on Cantator.   They have no clear leader yet.   Although lance got dropped with 1.2 miles left today.   Cantator is now in second lance 3rd by like 8 seconds.    The team itself  is split on who they want to guide.


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## SkiDork (Jul 10, 2009)

so the layman sees the Tour De France and is amazed by the fact that someone can win against what seems to be 100 or 200 riders.  In reality there are only like 4 or 5 riders in the race?


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## Marc (Jul 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> so the others on the team aren't competitors..more like an entourage???



Most of the time.  Occasionally teams won't have a defined leader... maybe they have 2 riders that have a shot at the overall, in which case they will sort things out as they go.

But for the most part, only one rider on a team is strong enough to do well in both the time trials and the mountains.  The other riders support that one anyway they can.  They're called domestiques, which is French for servant, I believe.  They'll drop back to the team cars to get water bottles and food, they'll surround their leader to protect him from the rest of the peleton, from the wind.  They'll help him catch back up to the pack if he has a mechanical.

The only exception is some teams will have a sprinting specialist so on the flat stages, toward the end of the stage, the team might send one or two "lead out guys" for their sprinting specialist to draft behind before the final sprint.  Also if they have a king of the mountains contender, that man might seek to break away from the pack early to earn points for passing over mountain climbs first.  But in general, the team dynamic is the leader plus his domestiques.


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## mondeo (Jul 10, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> so the layman sees the Tour De France and is amazed by the fact that someone can win against what seems to be 100 or 200 riders. In reality there are only like 4 or 5 riders in the race?


In NASCAR, are there 33 (or whatever the number is) drivers competing, or are there 5 or 6? Realistically, while Boris Said might have a chance at winning at Watkins Glen or Sears Point, it's going to be someone like Johnson, Stewart, or Gordon that wins the championship. Same thing in bike racing. They're the top 100+ riders in the world, but even in that elite group there is an extreme elite.

They're still racing against 100+ riders, they're just working in teams. Another car racing analogy: like how in F1 the secondary driver will be told not to pass the lead driver; the secondary driver may be capable of winning that race, but it's more important for the team that they help the lead driver get points for the championship.

The Astana team is an interesting case because you usually have one clear top rider on the team. Despite the fact that Contador is probably more likely to win, Armstrong may have a chance, and Leipheimer could be a contender. So while you have a team of guys that aren't going to slow each other down to keep the draft going, you also don't have a clear decision on who is setting the pace and staying out of the lead.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 11, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Exactly.  that is the contreversy.  Lance is supposed to be support and he is making a run on Cantator.   They have no clear leader yet.   Although lance got dropped with 1.2 miles left today.   Cantator is now in second* lance 3rd by like 8 seconds.    *The team itself  is split on who they want to guide.



Is 8 seconds alot in cycling???


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## mondeo (Jul 11, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Is 8 seconds alot in cycling???


No. Being this early in the tour, the top three are practically tied.


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## Marc (Jul 12, 2009)

The three stages that will decide the tour will be the climb to Verbier, the last TT and the Ventoux the day before Paris;

The TT will be interesting now that Lance actually looked a bit better than Contador in the TTT.  Lance's form is a lot better than I thought it was, given his performance in the Giro.  But then again, he does know pretty darn well by now how best to peak for the TdF.


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## Harvey (Jul 14, 2009)

Contador is probably stronger than Lance but not smarter. It remains to be seen if Lance can use his brain to beat AC.

Astana could probably put any one of 3 or 4 guys in yellow at the end of the tour.  Lance could definitely win if the team was behind him.

I'm convinced Lance is still in the top 5 GC riders in the world. Pretty amazing for his age and situation.

I always root for the old guy. Go Lance!


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## Marc (Jul 14, 2009)

Levi, probably... Kloden, I'm not so sure.  I'm surprised, he doesn't look good this year at all.


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## mondeo (Jul 17, 2009)

Marc said:


> Levi, probably... Kloden, I'm not so sure. I'm surprised, he doesn't look good this year at all.


And now not Levi.

(Broken wrist for those who haven't heard.)


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## Marc (Jul 17, 2009)

mondeo said:


> And now not Levi.
> 
> (Broken wrist for those who haven't heard.)



Yeah, that sucks about Levi.  I hate it when bad things happen to good people.


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## Harvey (Jul 19, 2009)

*Stage 15*

Love the action and drama yesterday and today.  Some great rides today including the one put up by Kloden.

Here's a great thread on today's action from some who really understand pro bike racing dynamics:

http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/642104717/m/2291062726


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