# $1M for Mittersill "improvement project"



## bobbutts (Aug 10, 2014)

> Cannon Mountain, Franconia: Cannon is spending nearly $2 million in improvements for 2014-2015, including roughly $1 million towards Phase I of the Mittersill improvement project which involves trail work. Trail expansion and a new snowmaking compressor that will add 28 percent more snowmaking capacity.



Nashua Telegraph article

Anyone have more details?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2014)

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=133


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## WzGy44 (Aug 11, 2014)

I've held a season pass at Cannon for awhile now and a couple of things about that story concern me. The first is where mittersill is heading. I would prefer for it to keep it's back country feel, but it seems that they're hellbent on going forward with the ski team improvements. Skiing mittersill the last ten years as non groomed unkept playground has been a blast. I nearly lost it last year when they went up over the top and down mittersill with the groomer. 

Secondly if they keep operating in the red exponentially every year at what point do we have to face the next "we need to sell cannon!" Frenzy from the Capitol house. Cannon is our last vestige of non resort affordable New England skiing. I would gladly pay a few more tax dollars to the state to keep it state owned.


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2014)

This is the statement that got me "Just one year prior to this latest debt  increase, State Treasurer Catherine Provencher disclosed a growing  deficit in the Cannon Mountain debt account and recommended lawmakers  "stop the bleeding" as she expected the "deficit will continue to grow."


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

I thought the FSC was fundraising to put in the snowmaking, lights and t-bar.


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## Cannonball (Aug 11, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> This is the statement that got me "Just one year prior to this latest debt  increase, State Treasurer Catherine Provencher disclosed a growing  deficit in the Cannon Mountain debt account and recommended lawmakers  "stop the bleeding" as she expected the "deficit will continue to grow."



Yeah, but you have to take that with a grain of salt.  That quote comes from's Threecy's webpage and its well-known agenda.  I'm very surprised that DHS would link to his page (maybe just trying to stir the pot??).  We went through all this at the time that the treasurer conducted the audit.  That quote is an out-of-context sound bite.  In fact there's no evidence that she even said anything remotely like that.  Here are the minutes from the audit meeting in reference  http://www.nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/CMAC_Minutes_4-12-13.pdf

That's not to say that I don't have serious concerns about this plan.  It doesn't seem like a good investment to me at all.  There are lots of other improvements at Cannon that would get more bang for the buck.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2014)

Certainly no intention of stirring the pot.  Despite my differences of opinion with him,  I frequent his website (now 2 websites as I was unaware of newenglandskiindustry.com prior to this search) because he tends to always have the most up to date information on the industry.  I give him a lot of credit for the work he does in that regard.


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Yeah, but you have to take that with a grain of salt. That quote comes from's Threecy's webpage and its well-known agenda. I'm very surprised that DHS would link to his page (maybe just trying to stir the pot??). We went through all this at the time that the treasurer conducted the audit. That quote is an out-of-context sound bite. In fact there's no evidence that she even said anything remotely like that. Here are the minutes from the audit meeting in reference http://www.nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/CMAC_Minutes_4-12-13.pdf
> 
> That's not to say that I don't have serious concerns about this plan. It doesn't seem like a good investment to me at all. There are lots of other improvements at Cannon that would get more bang for the buck.



From NHPARKS.org site

"The project cost is estimated at roughly $3 million which would be privately funded by the Franconia Ski Club and gifted to the State (Cannon) upon completion. "


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## Abubob (Aug 11, 2014)

Couldn't read the article in the original post except this little tidbit: "August is no time to be thinking about skiing"

Other than that Cannon's plans to restore Mittersill to it's former glory are well known. It would have been nice to keep it a hike only option but the plans to fully restore have been on the books since 1998.

Quoted here is the entire proposal as updated in 2008:



> *February 21, 2008 *
> *Proposed Revision *
> *Cannon Mountain Master Development Plan *
> _Summary _
> ...


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## bobbutts (Aug 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Certainly no intention of stirring the pot.  Despite my differences of opinion with him,  I frequent his website (now 2 websites as I was unaware of newenglandskiindustry.com prior to this search) because he tends to always have the most up to date information on the industry.  I give him a lot of credit for the work he does in that regard.


Chasing him away from this site was a fairly significant loss of relevant info, but that's what the forum wanted and moderators encouraged.


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Chasing him away from this site was a fairly significant loss of relevant info, but that's what the forum wanted and moderators encouraged.



He had an agenda and was called out on it for other reasons.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 11, 2014)

I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark.  It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers.  While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill.  The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence.  The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.

The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod.  Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift.  Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom.  You have to learn secret knowledge.

From a marketing perspective, why can't they just name a few runs/glades and put them on the map.  Sugarloaf burnt mountain would be an example.  This might improve the coolness of the place and attract those unfamiliar.

Of course, increasing the knowledge of the runs/glades will likely hurt the quality of snow.  And the secret society would not want that.


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark. It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers. While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill. The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence. The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.
> 
> The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod. Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift. Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom. You have to learn secret knowledge.
> 
> ...




The snow can not handle the traffic it gets now with the lift.  Putting signs up would ruin all the rabbit holes for sure.


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## bobbutts (Aug 11, 2014)

Puck it said:


> He had an agenda and was called out on it for other reasons.


Calling out the Mittersill double as a waste seems to have been an accurate assessment among several others.  Those who did the calling out seem to be less accurate and also with an agenda.


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## Abubob (Aug 11, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> I think the current incarnation of Mittersill misses the mark.  It is really only a useful pod for die hard Cannon skiers.  While I have skied Cannon more than any other ski area on earth, I don't frequent it enough anymore to be intimately familiar with the back country experience of Mittersill.  The lift does not seem to run often enough to justify its existence.  The development does not seem to add anything to the appeal of the place and does not seem to grow skier visits- their stated goal.



The Mittersill development is ongoing. The chair was just the first piece of the puzzle. Adding snowmaking has always been part of the plan.



> The maddening aspect of the pod is that there are no trail signs, markers, etc for how to get to it or to navigate the pod.  Its even very easy to miss the cut off to get back to the lift.  Its like you need to be a member of the special club just to get the keys to the kingdom.  You have to learn secret knowledge.



My plan is to ski with Cannonball a few times. At least until he starts hucking cliff drops.



> From a marketing perspective, why can't they just name a few runs/glades and put them on the map.  Sugarloaf burnt mountain would be an example.  This might improve the coolness of the place and attract those unfamiliar.
> 
> Of course, increasing the knowledge of the runs/glades will likely hurt the quality of snow.  And the secret society would not want that.



They ran a contest a few years back to name their little kiddie terrain park. Maybe they'll do that again for Mittersill.


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## dlague (Aug 11, 2014)

This debate was kicked around earlier this year.  Unfortunately, the Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters.  Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to  point out the opposite.  The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned.  This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests.  https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon

On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain



> As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded state park system. Skier visits were up 25 percent this past season, which was within 3 percent of Cannon's record.



Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity.  Much of the funding needed and/or revenues generated from Cannon are from this entity or are applied to this entity.  The Governor approved $750,000  to be applied to the improvements which are funded by the Mount Sunapee lease which is also The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation revenue from Sunapee State Park.  Another 1.25 million is being funded from elsewhere (Franconia Ski Club is prpobably one source).


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2014)

When they say 
"As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an  operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a  substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an  average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded  state park system."

Does this include the monies from the Sunapee lease or not?


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> When they say
> "As the snow melts away at Cannon comes good news: the mountain turned an operational profit of as much as $900,000 this past season, a substantial recovery from last year. Since 2008, Cannon has produced an average surplus of $515,000 annually - money that helps the self-funded state park system."
> 
> Does this include the monies from the Sunapee lease or not?



Yes, I think so.


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

dlague said:


> This debate was kicked around earlier this year. Unfortunately, the Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters. Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to point out the opposite. The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned. This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests. https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon
> 
> On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain
> 
> ...




I thought money was coming FSC but this release does not even mention that.


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## bobbutts (Aug 11, 2014)

dlague said:


> This debate was kicked around earlier this year.  Unfortunately, the *Lease Cannon crowd continues to bash Cannon and muddy the financial waters*.  Then there are the Pro State Owned Cannon folks who are trying to  point out the opposite.  The Lease Cannon like to pose themselves as Tax Payers for Cannon but are actually trying to have Cannon to be no longer state owned.  This group has many non skiing or snowboarding interests.  https://www.facebook.com/TaxpayersForCannon
> 
> On the other hand the Pro State Owned group posted the following on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/savecannonmountain
> 
> ...




As someone who has been visiting Cannon for a long time, have known a few employees there, it's pretty obvious to me that it's run poorly compared to the competition and specifically to Mt. Sunapee.  The ridiculous and overpriced Mittersill double is just one example.  I have some doubts about who exactly is muddying the financial waters.  Even if the numbers are accurate, how's the ROI going on Mittersill?


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## Abubob (Aug 11, 2014)

A more or less unbiased report on Cannon alleged deficit. http://www.unionleader.com/article/20130505/NEWS06/130509574

A quote from that article:





> She (State Treasurer Catherine Provencher) points out that Cannon actually operates at a profit but that revenues from Cannon go to support other parks that do not generate revenue. "Our parks fund was intended to be self-supporting, so I have to say Cannon and the Hampton meters pay for an awful lot of our system of parks that we can all enjoy," she said.



Nice Mittersill lift photo in article:


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## dlague (Aug 11, 2014)

Abubob said:


> A more or less unbiased report on Cannon alleged deficit. http://www.unionleader.com/article/20130505/NEWS06/130509574
> 
> A quote from that article:



Hence my earlier post of:

Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity.


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## Abubob (Aug 11, 2014)

dlague said:


> Hence my earlier post of:
> 
> Cannon falls under the guise of The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation which is a self funded state entity.



According to this article Cannon (along with Hampton Beach) actually helps fund the rest of the park system.


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2014)

WIth this being said "
She (State Treasurer Catherine Provencher) points  out that Cannon actually operates at a profit but that revenues from  Cannon go to support other parks that do not generate revenue. "Our  parks fund was intended to be self-supporting, so I have to say Cannon  and the Hampton meters pay for an awful lot of our system of parks that  we can all enjoy," she said."

Then the other statement was taken out of context for sure saying that Cannon was bleeding. It is really that Cannon is helping pay for the park system. I know a lease would as well but other things could bring that down as well (lawsuits to gain more land to build condo's).

On another note has anyone ever given any thought to buying the Mittersil time share place. Knocking it down and building a modern resort there now that the ski area is back up and running (sort of).


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

Summer atttractions in the notch make more than the ski area does also.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2014)

Personally I'm more interested in discussing the actual project and any pictures of work, etc. as opposed to getting mired in the debate about Cannon's revenue and privatizing Cannon, etc.  

My understanding was that this work was to be funded largely by the FSC and they were actively fundraising.  I also think that it was part of the plans to make Mittersill the base of FSC's racing.


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Personally I'm more interested in discussing the actual project and any pictures of work, etc. as opposed to getting mired in the debate about Cannon's revenue and privatizing Cannon, etc.
> 
> My understanding was that this work was to be funded largely by the FSC and they were actively fundraising. I also think that it was part of the plans to make Mittersill the base of FSC's racing.



That is what I thought also about the funding.


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## Abubob (Aug 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Personally I'm more interested in discussing the actual project and any pictures of work, etc. as opposed to getting mired in the debate about Cannon's revenue and privatizing Cannon, etc.
> 
> My understanding was that this work was to be funded largely by the FSC and they were actively fundraising.  I also think that it was part of the plans to make Mittersill the base of FSC's racing.



Well while snowmaking has always been part of the plan FSC is also part of the trail expansion so they have an additional place to train their race team and I would imagine run races.

This is on Cannon's site:http://www.cannonmt.com/mittersillfaq.html



> *2. Who would be funding this project?
> 
> *Franconia Ski Club (FSC / the Club), a New Hampshire based non-profit (and partner to the State of New Hampshire / Cannon Mountain since 1933), has proposed the project, and would enact a private fundraising campaign to fund it. Upon its completion, FSC would gift the project (and all associated equipment) to the State of New Hampshire / Cannon Mountain. Upon acceptance of the project (and ownership of all associated equipment), Cannon Mountain would incorporate the facilities and equipment into its daily / weekly / monthly / annual operation of Cannon Mountain Aerial Tramway & Ski Area (Cannon).
> 
> ...


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2014)

I don't get how the decision for the T-bar came to be. It would be a nice to have thing, but not necessary. The double sits there unused. They are planning on adding snow making on Skyline/Ridge anyway, why not just use the double to get down to the race slope.  One thing to note, Taft used to be as wide open as their plan. Though if I were a Canon regular I can see why people would not like this one bit.


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## Highway Star (Aug 11, 2014)

Threecy is a little twit....


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## Puck it (Aug 11, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> I don't get how the decision for the T-bar came to be. It would be a nice to have thing, but not necessary. The double sits there unused. They are planning on adding snow making on Skyline/Ridge anyway, why not just use the double to get down to the race slope.  One thing to note, Taft used to be as wide open as their plan. Though if I were a Canon regular I can see why people would not like this one bit.




They are lighting the old Taft slope for night training per the plan. Thus the need for the t bar.


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## dlague (Aug 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I also think that it was part of the plans to make Mittersill the base of FSC's racing.




That plan was laid out in two public forums in Concord and Franconia in September of 2012!  Not real new information!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2014)

I think that idea with the T-Bar was night skiing and faster access for racers.  Kind of the like the Poma at Burke.  And it's relatively cheap.


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## bobbutts (Aug 11, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Threecy is a little twit....


Pot meet kettle.

Seriously, I'm working on it lately and threecy is in the hall of fame, but you are the OG of being the joke of ski forums.


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## Edd (Aug 11, 2014)

Anyone know what the nature of the fundraising will be?  Seems like a lot of coin to just fork over to Cannon. I'm guessing a few people have deep pockets?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2014)

Edd said:


> Anyone know what the nature of the fundraising will be?  Seems like a lot of coin to just fork over to Cannon. I'm guessing a few people have deep pockets?



A Mr. Bode Miller is helping out......


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## dlague (Aug 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> A Mr. Bode Miller is helping out......



Who's that?


.......


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2014)

dlague said:


> Who's that?
> 
> 
> .......



Yeah chopped liver since he only got a bronze this year in the Olympics


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## steamboat1 (Aug 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> A Mr. Bode Miller is helping out......





dlague said:


> Who's that?
> 
> 
> .......


Yeah I'd give him $5 bucks for his autograph.


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## Newpylong (Aug 12, 2014)

Puck it said:


> They are lighting the old Taft slope for night training per the plan. Thus the need for the t bar.



They pulled the lights from the initial plan. But long term that makes sense... thanks. It's probably operationally cheaper to run the T and lights only on Taft at night vs the Double and lights all the way down to Taft + Taft.


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## Puck it (Aug 12, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> They pulled the lights from the initial plan. But long term that makes sense... thanks. It's probably operationally cheaper to run the T and lights only on Taft at night vs the Double and lights all the way down to Taft + Taft.



You are right.  I see that on the FAQ page now.


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## dlague (Aug 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah chopped liver since he only got a bronze this year in the Olympics



Maybe they will move Bodi Day over to Taft.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 12, 2014)

Did the Lafayette interconnect fall through?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Did the Lafayette interconnect fall through?



Oh I'm sure that is still in the works......


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## Puck it (Aug 12, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Did the Lafayette interconnect fall through?



I am working it!   Gimme a break.  I am trying to gather the funding.    Boy, you are really aching for ski off!


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## doublediamond (Aug 13, 2014)

According to Cannon's webpage, the only improvements are for 130 snowguns, new snowmaking on Jaspers, and a new groomer.  Nothing at all about Mittersill.


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## Puck it (Aug 13, 2014)

doublediamond said:


> According to Cannon's webpage, the only improvements are for 130 snowguns, new snowmaking on Jaspers, and a new groomer.  Nothing at all about Mittersill.



That was last year.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 13, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I am working it!   Gimme a break.  I am trying to gather the funding.    Boy, you are really aching for ski off!


I have the engineering drawings done...


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## Puck it (Aug 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I have the engineering drawings done...



Need to work on the tunnel under 93 with the conveyor belt carousal.


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## Abubob (Aug 13, 2014)

Will there be condos on Lafayette as well? Where will the ski trails be and what about snowmaking?


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 13, 2014)

Abubob said:


> Will there be condos on Lafayette as well? Where will the ski trails be and what about snowmaking?



That's like phase VII. Don't get carried away here


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 13, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh I'm sure that is still in the works......



There is a lot of vertical in that second shot. I've seen some pretty cool videos of people skiing that.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I am working it!   Gimme a break.  I am trying to gather the funding.    Boy, you are really aching for ski off!



He's looking for EB-5 investors I think....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Abubob (Aug 13, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's like phase VII. Don't get carried away here



Alright ... Will there be a Waffle Haus?


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## Puck it (Aug 13, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's like phase VII. Don't get carried away here




Also included in the phase is the exapansion to the back bowl on Lafayette.  I have attached the rendering of the proposed trails and the Lafayette Express HSQ.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 13, 2014)

Who do we ask to get the state of NH on the AZ Challenge? There are pressing questions that need to be answered.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 13, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Who do we ask to get the state of NH on the AZ Challenge? There are pressing questions that need to be answered.



You gotta run it by threecy fist :flame:


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 13, 2014)

Back on track...
I don't know if I ever posted these.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 13, 2014)

Is that crap for real? Cannon really knows how to ruin a good thing


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## Abubob (Aug 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Back on track...
> I don't know if I ever posted these.



I liked the track we were on better.


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## Puck it (Aug 13, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Is that crap for real? Cannon really knows how to ruin a good thing




Goodbye, old t-bar line. No more popping off the tree islands on Baron's.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 13, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Goodbye, old t-bar line. No more popping off the tree islands on Baron's.



That's terrible. There goes the neighborhood!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 13, 2014)

Sucks to lose Barons as it was and I'm sure a big portion of Mittersill I haven't skied that has been in a "side country state" up until this proposed development. I'm sure the one net positive of destroying those experiences is that the Cannon Beavers will get busy in the woods elsewhere and prune stashes that don't exist today.


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## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> Here is the issue, many, myself included as a skier, are not willing to pay more taxes for a ski area. The percentage of people who actually ski, verses those who would be supporting the ski area makes this a non starter.



Well as noted that without Cannon (if sold off) then more money would be needed to support the other state parks -  increasing the tax burden. Yes I know the talk is to lease it. Also you live in ME so you have no say.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> Here is the issue, many, myself included as a skier, are not willing to pay more taxes for a ski area. The percentage of people who actually ski, verses those who would be supporting the ski area makes this a non starter.



The same argument is made for stadiums and other things. Ultimately, the only choice we have is in who we vote into public office that makes these decisions


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## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> Hey!!!! I lived in NH for 9 years, doesn't that count for something?
> 
> How is Canon supposed to support the other state parks if it always in the red? Or is it this support that puts it in the red?



This was from someones post earlier:
A more or less unbiased report on Cannon alleged deficit. http://www.unionleader.com/article/2...WS06/130509574

A quote from that article:                                                         She (State Treasurer Catherine Provencher) points  out that Cannon actually operates at a profit but that revenues from  Cannon go to support other parks that do not generate revenue. "Our  parks fund was intended to be self-supporting, so I have to say Cannon  and the Hampton meters pay for an awful lot of our system of parks that  we can all enjoy," she said


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## deadheadskier (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> Here is the issue, many, myself included as a skier, are not willing to pay more taxes for a ski area. The percentage of people who actually ski, verses those who would be supporting the ski area makes this a non starter.



That's fine, but do realize part of the taxes you pay in Maine goes towards operating parks that are enjoyed by very few people and lose money.  It's all part of the greater good in providing recreational opportunities for people at a more reasonable cost than they will find pursuing those opportunities at privately held for profit venues. 

Part of my tax dollars went towards a $14M revitalization of Hampton Beach.  I've lived 15 minutes down the road from there for 6 years and have only been a couple of times to enjoy the improvements.  It's just not a place I really dig, but appreciate that many other people do.  I pay extra for State Park license plates for my car and probably don't realize a financial savings in doing so because I don't visit the parks often enough to justify the added cost of the plates that gets me "free" admittance.  I buy them more because I know the extra money goes towards the upkeep and operation of the parks and there's value in that for the people of and visitors to this state.

Cannon could lose $1.3M a year and I wouldn't care.  That's a buck a person.  Residents lose far more on other frivolous expenditures by the state.  At least money lost at Cannon provides a more affordable skiing experience than if it were privately run.

That's the way I see it anyways.


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## Puck it (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> That's fine, but do realize part of the taxes you pay in Maine goes towards operating parks that are enjoyed by very few people and lose money. It's all part of the greater good in providing recreational opportunities for people at a more reasonable cost than they will find pursuing those opportunities at privately held for profit venues.
> 
> 
> I was/am not aware of that. I am a firm believer that each issue should stand on it's own merits. I also feel every issue should be self supporting as much as possible, although, like schools, some can not be.




And your tax dollars pay for a lot of other crap that should stand on it own or should I say pay their own way.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> I was/am not aware of that. I am a firm believer that each issue should stand on it's own merits. I also feel every issue should be self supporting as much as possible, although, like schools, some can not be.



State Parks are by and large a money drain from the general fund in every state.  NH is the only exceptions to that where the parks are fully funded by usage fees.  For all the critics of Cannon and NH state parks financials, we do it better than any other state in the country.


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## Cannonball (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> I was/am not aware of that. I am a firm believer that each issue should stand on it's own merits. I also feel every issue should be self supporting as much as possible, although, like schools, some can not be.



You were not aware that your taxes fund parks in your state?  For someone who has a strong opinion about taxes increases and how their taxes should be spent, you might want to consider looking into at least the very basics of your state's operations.


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## dlague (Aug 14, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> State Parks are by and large a money drain from the general fund in every state.  NH is the only exceptions to that where the parks are fully funded by usage fees.  For all the critics of Cannon and NH state parks financials, we do it better than any other state in the country.




Very true - many see the state paying for everything for NH Sate Parks which includes Cannon but the State parks system here is very self funded.  Are there funds needed out of the Capital Budget for projects like Hampton Beach - yes.  As deadheadskier mentions we do not use all of the resources - I for one do not visit Hampton Beach nor do I hike much in our state parks but I will be skiing Cannon due to the good deal extended to NH residents.  I am not going to go crazy over where money is being spent on projects I am not interested in since there are others I like so in the end the projects overall cover a broader spectrum of people none of whom will use 100% of them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2014)

Getting away again from the debate as to Cannon's status as a publicly owned ski area.....

Anyone up in the North Country been to Cannon and seen if any activity is going on at Mittersill?


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 14, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> State Parks are by and large a money drain from the general fund in every state.  NH is the only exceptions to that where the parks are fully funded by usage fees.  For all the critics of Cannon and NH state parks financials, we do it better than
> 
> any other state in the country.



Off topic rant:

I love this state because everything is as self sufficient as possible. Most of my taxes go towards local infrastructure, schools and roads, and that's pretty fair I think. If there are a few things that are subsidized like parks and ski areas, so be it. I could live in western MA and be paying so people in Boston can ride the T. Somewhere there has to be a balance.

As for Maine, look at all the money they are blowing on rail (and I am HUGE pro rail). Portland to Boston was a no-brainer - it's sold out constantly. Portland to Brunswick is pushing it. Now they are looking at extending to Augusta and possible going up the other way to Auburn/Lewiston. The state already spent millions rebuilding 20 miles of the Mountain Division past Westbrook and the customers never showed up. They are also looking at "Commuter Rail" between Lewiston/Auburn and Portland. Seriously? Burlington, VT tried that and it bombed. Traffic isn't bad enough and there aren't enough people. These are all multi-million dollars projects and maintenance that a small fraction will use.

So yeah - we have it pretty damn good here. That's why we have all the nut job Free Staters.

/end rant


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Getting away again from the debate as to Cannon's status as a publicly owned ski area.....
> 
> Anyone up in the North Country been to Cannon and seen if any activity is going on at Mittersill?


I'll be going to my house at Mittersill but not till Memorial Day weekend.I will report back.


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> I'll be going to my house at Mittersill but not till Memorial Day weekend.I will report back.



Do you mean Labor Day?  I think Memorial day is too far away, plus I would hate to see you miss the 2014-2015 ski season at Cannon with a place right there!


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2014)

One clarification regarding taxes.  Tax dollars spent on Cannon have an impact that is greater than the income received from the mountain itself.  The people who ski at Cannon also pay taxes at hotels, gas stations, restaurants, etc.  So the real question is whether or not the TOTAL revenues generated by Cannon (whether on-site or off-site) are greater than the total expenditure.  

As far as off-site revenues are concerned, you would have eliminate tax revenues from money that would have been spent in NH even if Cannon did not exist.  For example, if a family would have spent the same amount of money at restaurants and hotels while skiing Loon if Cannon was closed, those tax revenues should be excluded.  I'm certainly not smart enough to figure out that calculation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2014)

dlague said:


> Do you mean Labor Day?  I think Memorial day is too far away, plus I would hate to see miss the 2014-2015 ski season at Cannon with a place right there!



10 month party at Sikskiers' house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BYOB!!!!!!!


----------



## Abubob (Aug 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One clarification regarding taxes.  Tax dollars spent on Cannon have an impact that is greater than the income received from the mountain itself.  The people who ski at Cannon also pay taxes at hotels, gas stations, restaurants, etc.  So the real question is whether or not the TOTAL revenues generated by Cannon (whether on-site or off-site) are greater than the total expenditure.
> 
> As far as off-site revenues are concerned, you would have eliminate tax revenues from money that would have been spent in NH even if Cannon did not exist.  For example, if a family would have spent the same amount of money at restaurants and hotels while skiing Loon if Cannon was closed, those tax revenues should be excluded.  I'm certainly not smart enough to figure out that calculation.



I would think that would be impossible to quantify especially seeing as there are nearly no services as near to Cannon as there are to other areas. I don't even know what the closest gas station or restaurant there is south of Cannon other than what you would find in Franconia and I can't even think of much there. Lincoln/Woodstock is the closest and anyone that uses those services could much more easily ski at Loon. So I just don't see how it would be possible calculate outside taxes generated by each ski area.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 14, 2014)

Abubob said:


> I would think that would be impossible to quantify especially seeing as there are nearly no services as near to Cannon as there are to other areas. I don't even know what the closest gas station or restaurant there is south of Cannon other than what you would find in Franconia and I can't even think of much there. Lincoln/Woodstock is the closest and anyone that uses those services could much more easily ski at Loon. So I just don't see how it would be possible calculate outside taxes generated by each ski area.



Gas and lodging in North Lincoln.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2014)

Abubob said:


> I would think that would be impossible to quantify especially seeing as there are nearly no services as near to Cannon as there are to other areas. I don't even know what the closest gas station or restaurant there is south of Cannon other than what you would find in Franconia and I can't even think of much there. Lincoln/Woodstock is the closest and anyone that uses those services could much more easily ski at Loon. So I just don't see how it would be possible calculate outside taxes generated by each ski area.



Add Littleton, Bethlehem, Franconia, and Sugar Hill to the list of towns.....


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2014)

Abubob said:


> I would think that would be impossible to quantify especially seeing as there are nearly no services as near to Cannon as there are to other areas. I don't even know what the closest gas station or restaurant there is south of Cannon other than what you would find in Franconia and I can't even think of much there. Lincoln/Woodstock is the closest and anyone that uses those services could much more easily ski at Loon. So I just don't see how it would be possible calculate outside taxes generated by each ski area.


Thinking out loud on this. I am going to be staying in Lincoln this year the last week of Feb. I planned it to ski Cannon (Tues/Wed/Thursday). I may ski Loon but I wouldn't if I wasn't there for the week. I do not like Loon for the most part but being there for Cannon I may ski it on that Monday. Anyway (I think) my point was that I will be spending money in that area for the week because of Cannon. Maybe I am a one off but doubt it.


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Thinking out loud on this. I am going to be staying in Lincoln this year the last week of Feb. I planned it to ski Cannon (Tues/Wed/Thursday). I may ski Loon but I wouldn't if I wasn't there for the week. I do not like Loon for the most part but being there for Cannon I may ski it on that Monday. Anyway (I think) my point was that I will be spending money in that area for the week because of Cannon. Maybe I am a one off but doubt it.




You could ski either any time right?  I don't think you live far from me!


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2014)

dlague said:


> You could ski either any time right?  I don't think you live far from me!



I could. About an 1 1/2 from Cannon but didn't want to travel back and forth each day. If I day tripped I rarely do anything else in the area that costs money. Sometimes I do hit the Woodstock station. on a rare occasion hit a gas station.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I could. About an 1 1/2 from Cannon but didn't want to travel back and forth each day. If I day tripped I rarely do anything else in the area that costs money. Sometimes I do hit the Woodstock station. on a rare occasion hit a gas station.




1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon.  Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth.  Still cheaper than a hotel room.


----------



## timm (Aug 14, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> Off topic rant:
> I could live in western MA and be paying so people in Boston can ride the T. Somewhere there has to be a balance.




It's great for things to be as localized and self supporting as possible but it is way too easy for these conversations to become a kind of myopic "woe is me" about particular services people don't want to pay for with nary a word about the subsidies they themselves utilize and like. 

The MBTA thing is like an A #1 example of this kind of complaint that I hear constantly.  Who do people in Western Mass think is helping to pay for all their roads? (Not to mention a huge part of the MBTA budget is debt service related to the Big Dig...a project that has nothing to do with the T.) Do they not realize that the home ownership rate in Boston is about half of what it is in Western Mass and that all those homes are being subsidized by taxpayers? 

There is certainly a lot of waste in government but most often this subject seems to be more like an opportunity for soap boxing and ill-informed opinions than actually legitimate concern about waste or efficient use of taxpayer dollars. Even after it was pointed out multiple times that Cannon actually helps subsidize the entire state's park system, some people were still carrying on about the poor ol' "taxpayers" paying for Cannon.


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2014)

Puck it said:


> 1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon.  Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth.  Still cheaper than a hotel room.



Exactly - I am about an hour and 5 minutes or so and even with my gas guzzler it is way cheaper!


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2014)

Getting back to Cannon/Mittersill.........


----------



## dlague (Aug 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Getting back to Cannon/Mittersill.........



and?


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 14, 2014)

timm said:


> It's great for things to be as localized and self supporting as possible but it is way too easy for these conversations to become a kind of myopic "woe is me" about particular services people don't want to pay for with nary a word about the subsidies they themselves utilize and like.
> 
> The MBTA thing is like an A #1 example of this kind of complaint that I hear constantly.  Who do people in Western Mass think is helping to pay for all their roads? (Not to mention a huge part of the MBTA budget is debt service related to the Big Dig...a project that has nothing to do with the T.) Do they not realize that the home ownership rate in Boston is about half of what it is in Western Mass and that all those homes are being subsidized by taxpayers?
> 
> There is certainly a lot of waste in government but most often this subject seems to be more like an opportunity for soap boxing and ill-informed opinions than actually legitimate concern about waste or efficient use of taxpayer dollars. Even after it was pointed out multiple times that Cannon actually helps subsidize the entire state's park system, some people were still carrying on about the poor ol' "taxpayers" paying for Cannon.



There is disagreement over the numbers so I don't think it's as clear as you make it.  I'm in no position to be the judge in that dispute and it's not that interesting to me even as a NH taxpayer.
 So putting that aside there is still the issue of how Cannon is run.  I don't see how the Mittersill expansion can be considered anything but a business failure.  They also do poorly early season with getting terrain open.  They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running.  The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me.  I think many of the people posting here like it this way, they don't want Cannon to get Loon or Sunapee type crowds.  They don't want the trails to be homogenized and stashes turned into snowmaking boulevards.  The way it's going, looks like that is happening with the current management, so on that point, looks like a guaranteed loss.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> You may not be aware of this, but I moved here 23 months ago and spent 4 building my home. The, any months drumming up work, finally taking a job with Sunday River. On top of that, I have been getting involved in several ad hoc committees locally. I apologize if my knowledge of state taxes is not as complete as you would have it.



Once you do start researching taxes and tax structure in ME, I suggest having a nice bottle of scotch by your side, you'll probably need it. Its a nightmare for ME specifically.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 14, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> There is disagreement over the numbers so I don't think it's as clear as you make it.  I'm in no position to be the judge in that dispute and it's not that interesting to me even as a NH taxpayer.
> So putting that aside there is still the issue of how Cannon is run.  I don't see how the Mittersill expansion can be considered anything but a business failure.  They also do poorly early season with getting terrain open.  They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running.  The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me.  I think many of the people posting here like it this way, they don't want Cannon to get Loon or Sunapee type crowds.  They don't want the trails to be homogenized and stashes turned into snowmaking boulevards.  The way it's going, looks like that is happening with the current management, so on that point, looks like a guaranteed loss.



So you fault them for it not being like Anyskiresort USA but then blast them for taking away character of Barons etc. 

You can't have it both ways.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 14, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> So you fault them for it not being like Anyskiresort USA but then blast them for taking away character of Barons etc.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.



Don't get the 2 groups confused. I don't think they are one in the same.


----------



## Edd (Aug 14, 2014)

My father lives in Maine. You practically have to fire a tranquilizer dart in him to stop the bitching about taxes. This is a guy that's retired and doesn't have to work.


----------



## Edd (Aug 14, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> They don't draw enough business midweek to keep the iconic tram running.  The argument that the Mittersill money should have gone to modernizing Cannon proper seems strong to me.



Lot of places close lifts during the week, so it's tough to criticize Cannon about that. The iconic status of the tram is irrelevant. 

As far as Mittersill, I don't have the fuzzy feelings I did when the expansion was initially proposed. It's still a work in progress, though.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 14, 2014)

Edd said:


> Lot of places close lifts during the week, so it's tough to criticize Cannon about that. The iconic status of the tram is irrelevant.


But doesn't certain lower mountain trails become inaccessible when the tram is not in operation? How do you get back to the Zoomer lift without hiking? Killington is a perfect example of a ski area that closes certain lifts during the week. Even with these closures all terrain is not only still accessable but easy to get to a lift from after skiing down.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 14, 2014)

The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain. 

At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 14, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain.
> 
> At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.


I've only skied Cannon a 1/2 dozen times over the years. I remember it being more of a schlep. If I'm wrong then I stand corrected.


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 14, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> The tram being closed affects 0 percent of available terrain.
> 
> At most, Tramline and Kinsman would require about 100 yards of skating. THE HORROR.


It's 3 lift rides to the top also.  Not the end of the world, but not really something to lap.  

I don't really know what I want.  I like it empty, but I only go there when there's good snowpack and they lose my business to Sunapee or Loon frequently when it's not.  None of us know what a lease operator would do differently anyway so it's really hard to argue for or against how we imagine it might be vs. how we imagine it might be in the future with the current management, yet people are extremely firm and vocal about their positions on the matter.


----------



## Abubob (Aug 14, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> It's 3 lift rides to the top also.



Only 2 that I'm aware of. Oh, I didn't finish reading. Yeah lapping Tramline/Avalanche would be 3. A bit difficult and not really a must do with so many other options. They did run the tram last year for Mass vacation week and ran all day despite a increasingly biting wind that made riding the Cannonball express more painful as the day wore on.


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## Smellytele (Aug 14, 2014)

Puck it said:


> 1 3/4 for me one way and I do it once or twice a week to Cannon.  Just gas up in Conncord at the Sunoco or on the way home in Plymouth.  Still cheaper than a hotel room.



Maybe cheaper but 3 hours of driving for 4 days in a row would suck. I would rather not ski at that point. Driving back and forth to any mountain would be cheaper than owning a house near a mountain to but...


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 15, 2014)

Dumbass of the week award to me.Yes,Labor Day.


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## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe cheaper but 3 hours of driving for 4 days in a row would suck. I would rather not ski at that point. Driving back and forth to any mountain would be cheaper than owning a house near a mountain to but...



I agree if you are there for consectutive days.


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 15, 2014)

I've always had mixed feelings on the Mittersill takeover.Couple things,you can't make an arguement about taking away the character of Barons.Its being restored to its original demensions.If you want to say you would like to stay the way it is I could argue that because it was a lost ski area it very well could have been totally overgrown and not skiable at all.
Secondly,once the genie was out of the bottle with the installation of the new lift, snowmaking was inevitable and no doubt a necessity now.Living right at the base of Mittersill for 20 years I'm very familiar with the snow coverage.Mittersill does get a fair amount of snow but Cannon/Mittersill melts are like nothing I've seen at any other ski area.The unique topography of where it sits at the top of the notch create terrible melts when the south wind blows up the notch.Foir Mittersill to be skied more than an average of 2 months a year it has to have snowmaking.


----------



## Cannonball (Aug 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One clarification regarding taxes.  Tax dollars spent on Cannon have an impact that is greater than the income received from the mountain itself.  The people who ski at Cannon also pay taxes at hotels, gas stations, restaurants, etc.  So the real question is whether or not the TOTAL revenues generated by Cannon (whether on-site or off-site) are greater than the total expenditure.
> 
> As far as off-site revenues are concerned, you would have eliminate tax revenues from money that would have been spent in NH even if Cannon did not exist.  For example, if a family would have spent the same amount of money at restaurants and hotels while skiing Loon if Cannon was closed, those tax revenues should be excluded.  I'm certainly not smart enough to figure out that calculation.



This is a really interesting point.  As others have said, it seems very difficult to quantify but there is definitely a reality here.  Take me for example:

I bought a house in Lincoln specifically to ski Cannon.  I would not have bought in Lincoln to ski Loon.  And may not have bought in NH at all.  So ALL of the money that I contribute is specifically attributable to Cannon.  That includes property taxes, meals taxes, gas, utilities, etc, etc.  Before buying the house we were day-trippers and skied all over New England.  Now 90% of our days are at Cannon.  This represents another significant increase in our personal expenditures in NH vs other states thanks directly to Cannon.   Cannon's terrain is part of the story, but the relatively low cost of passes was equally important in our decision of where to buy.  If Cannon's passes cost as much as Loon's we probably would have looked elsewhere. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but it's in the tens-of-thousands of dollars per year that we as a single household are contributing to NH economy specifically because Cannon is a great, low-cost ski area.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> This is a really interesting point.  As others have said, it seems very difficult to quantify but there is definitely a reality here.  Take me for example:
> 
> I bought a house in Lincoln specifically to ski Cannon.  I would not have bought in Lincoln to ski Loon.  And may not have bought in NH at all.  So ALL of the money that I contribute is specifically attributable to Cannon.  That includes property taxes, meals taxes, gas, utilities, etc, etc.  Before buying the house we were day-trippers and skied all over New England.  Now 90% of our days are at Cannon.  This represents another significant increase in our personal expenditures in NH vs other states thanks directly to Cannon.   Cannon's terrain is part of the story, but the relatively low cost of passes was equally important in our decision of where to buy.  If Cannon's passes cost as much as Loon's we probably would have looked elsewhere. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but it's in the tens-of-thousands of dollars per year that we as a single household are contributing to NH economy specifically because Cannon is a great, low-cost ski area.



Thanks Cannonball for contributing to our tax system> while we do bitch about massholes they really do help our economy without burdening our schools and other services. yes they do use our roads and some services but far less than those who live here full-time.


----------



## Cannonball (Aug 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Thanks Cannonball for contributing to our tax system> while we do bitch about massholes they really do help our economy without burdening our schools and other services. yes they do use our roads and some services but far less than those who live here full-time.



You're welcome.  And I pay the tolls, so no bitching about the road usage either.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> You're welcome. And I pay the tolls, so no bitching about the road usage either.



NH Roads are much better than MA roads


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> NH Roads are much better than MA roads



Fact. We also enjoy taking our sweet time fixing it.


----------



## dlague (Aug 15, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> But doesn't certain lower mountain trails become inaccessible when the tram is not in operation? How do you get back to the Zoomer lift without hiking? Killington is a perfect example of a ski area that closes certain lifts during the week. Even with these closures all terrain is not only still accessable but easy to get to a lift from after skiing down.



Everything is accessible from the top!  At the base is where you have to skate to - skateway, appropriately named.

I second the statement of resorts closing lifts midweek, it makes business sense.  I see the electric bills from these ski areas and they are significant!


.......


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 15, 2014)

NH roads are plowed much better than VT roads - at least roads in northern VT.


----------



## Cannonball (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> NH Roads are much better than MA roads



The roads in Chile are better than MA roads.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> The roads in Chile are better than MA roads.



Probably true and less corruption


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## Cannonball (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Probably true and less corruption



Not sure about that.   But how's this for sending the Cannon debate into a tailspin..... The roads in Chile are in better shape because they are privatized (true).


----------



## dlague (Aug 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Not sure about that.   But how's this for sending the Cannon debate into a tailspin..... The roads in Chile are in better shape because they are privatized (true).



I guess if some day Cannon gets privatized, which do not think will happen, I will have to return to deal hunting!  Who am I kidding, I still am deal hunting even with a pass.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Probably true and less corruption



When did this turn into shit on mass day?


----------



## dlague (Aug 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> When did this turn into shit on mass day?



It is the ADD on this forum!


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> NH roads are plowed much better than VT roads - at least roads in northern VT.



I remember like 12 years ago North VT was great at getting snow off 89 during snow storms. Not so much any more it sad because I know with my car I cant make it their so I go else where and they louse money at a place in North VT.


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 15, 2014)

ScottySkis said:


> ...they louse money at a place in North VT.



Remind me to only use credit cards when visiting North VT.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> Remind me to only use credit cards when visiting North VT.



I think you want to fumigate and change you get back.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I think you want to fumigate and change you get back.



Insect jokes......what a nerd. Although maybe I am too since I know what a louse is.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> When did this turn into shit on mass day?



I think it was my fault for thanking Cannonball


----------



## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I think it was my fault for thanking Cannonball




I am not a true Masshole either.  I emigrated from Silicon Valley. Which is worse than MA.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I think it was my fault for thanking Cannonball




I am am not a true Masshole either.  I emigrated from Silicon Valley. Which is worse than MA.  And not a hippie from Cali either.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 15, 2014)

dlague said:


> Everything is accessible from the top!  At the base is where you have to skate to - skateway, appropriately named.
> 
> I second the statement of resorts closing lifts midweek, it makes business sense.  I see the electric bills from these ski areas and they are significant!
> 
> ...




I dont know, maybe not the most relative example, but I think its like selling your Accounts Receivable for 80 cents on the dollar. Yes its a short term boost, but long term, public perception hurts you more. 

Noone will think of an area as the best if they cant run everything all the time. It is what it is. For Cannon and Gore and the other comparable state owned areas, its a necessity it appears. They also can charge less so that eases the annoyance factor.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I am am not a true Masshole either.  I emigrated from Silicon Valley. Which is worse than MA.  And not a hippie from Cali either.



That explains a lot. SKI-OFF!!!


----------



## dlague (Aug 15, 2014)

ScottySkis said:


> I remember like 12 years ago North VT was great at getting snow off 89 during snow storms. Not so much any more it sad because I know with my car I cant make it their so I go else where and they louse money at a place in North VT.





Domeskier said:


> Remind me to only use credit cards when visiting North VT.





Puck it said:


> I think you want to fumigate and change you get back.





MadMadWorld said:


> Insect jokes......what a nerd. Although maybe I am too since I know what a louse is.



This shit cracks me up!


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 18, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> I dont know, maybe not the most relative example, but I think its like selling your Accounts Receivable for 80 cents on the dollar. Yes its a short term boost, but long term, public perception hurts you more.
> 
> Noone will think of an area as the best if they cant run everything all the time. It is what it is. For Cannon and Gore and the other comparable state owned areas, its a necessity it appears. They also can charge less so that eases the annoyance factor.



Even "The beast of the east" closes some lifts mid week


----------



## witch hobble (Aug 19, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Calling out the Mittersill double as a waste seems to have been an accurate assessment among several others.  Those who did the calling out seem to be less accurate and also with an agenda.



Bob, his agenda was more broad than that.  That particular aspect of his argument actually warranted some sympathy....and the whole Mittersill experiment is still playing out.


----------



## witch hobble (Aug 19, 2014)

I would like to take a moment here and give a shout out to the Hampton Beach parking meters!!! Keep doing what you are doing!


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 20, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> I would like to take a moment here and give a shout out to the Hampton Beach parking meters!!! Keep doing what you are doing!


Ya,I think it was those meters that gave us the new bar at Cannon!


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## Puck it (Aug 20, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Ya,I think it was those meters that gave us the new bar at Cannon!



Tram or Peabody?


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 20, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Even "The beast of the east" closes some lifts mid week



Well we could take issue with any markets branding.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 21, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Tram or Peabody?



Theres a new bar at the tram?I was in the building once this year but it was for a night event at the summit and didn't notice a bar.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 21, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Theres a new bar at the tram?I was in the building once this year but it was for a night event at the summit and didn't notice a bar.



Really at the far end towards Tramway.  It has been for a couple years.


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 21, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> Bob, his agenda was more broad than that.  That particular aspect of his argument actually warranted some sympathy....and the whole Mittersill experiment is still playing out.


Agree.  I'm saying there was a point where people just started disagreeing with everything he said due to his agenda and their personal dislike of him.  His valid points were lost.


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## Puck it (Aug 21, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Agree. I'm saying there was a point where people just started disagreeing with everything he said due to his agenda and their personal dislike of him. His valid points were lost.


 And there were vaild point for calling out the little illegal trail cutter.  He was a hippocrite.


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## Domeskier (Aug 21, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Agree.  I'm saying there was a point where people just started disagreeing with everything he said due to his agenda and their personal dislike of him.  His valid points were lost.



But his secret stash remained hidden, right?!?!?!??


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## bobbutts (Aug 21, 2014)

Puck it said:


> And there were vaild point for calling out the little illegal trail cutter.  He was a hippocrite.


I must have missed that one.


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## Puck it (Aug 21, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> I must have missed that one.




It was an unsolicited PM from another member that gave the information on it.


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## AdironRider (Aug 21, 2014)

All his dirty laundry came out a few years ago in another Cannon thread. 

He like to cut illegal trails then make a hissy fit when busted. 

I also, and this is just my theory, think he works for a NH competitor of Cannon's, but I have no proof.


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## Cannonball (Aug 21, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Agree.  I'm saying there was a point where people just started disagreeing with everything he said due to his agenda and their personal dislike of him.  His valid points were lost.



Exactly.  And that is what really bothers me about him and his approach.  The decision making and financials at Cannon deserve some serious and objective scrutiny.  I question a lot of what is going on there.  When he brings his clearly biased and seriously devious methods to the conversation it is extremely polarizing.  It makes it impossible to have an informed discussion.  Nobody likes to feel like they are being manipulated to serve a hidden agenda.  So, exactly as you say, his valid points get lumped in with his agenda and essentially rule out the ability to discuss it sensibly. 

I'm glad he's not doing here anymore. But as you know, he is still at it elsewhere.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 3, 2014)

Here you go guys.There is a facebook page on Mittersill.
https://www.facebook.com/MittersillTrailImprovementproject?ref=br_tf


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 3, 2014)

That's just depressing


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's just depressing



The trail has not been the same since the lift went in anyways.  Still plenty of stuff to play in over there.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 3, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's just depressing



Why?  I haven't skied Mittersill, but it seems like cleaning up the trails is a good thing.  Are you thinking they will be grooming?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

It looks to me like a lot of the cutting is the lower part of the trail. However, I know the tree islands are coming out this year, as part of this cut I presume. Snowmaking is NOT going in this year, so it will still be skied on natural snow this season.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Why? I haven't skied Mittersill, but it seems like cleaning up the trails is a good thing. Are you thinking they will be grooming?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They have groomed a couple times in the last two years.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 3, 2014)

I just get this sinking feeling they are just trying to rip the band aid slowly off. I think it's downhill from here.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I just get this sinking feeling they are just trying to rip the band aid slowly off. I think it's downhill from here.




The bigger question is:  Will there be erosion?


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Its a limited approval from the state. snowmaking will be on Barons and another trail, skiers left off the top, that will cut back and connect into Barons Snowmaking will also be on the lower part, when they cut to open it up for racing. That's it. No approval for anything else.  snowmaking may actually help direct skiers who should not really be there to specific trails and keep them off the side-country stuff. There is still a ton of terrain off the top that is only hike accessible. This will have no effect on these trails. I think Barons,with snowmaking will be the best ripper on the hill; longest continuous vert around.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Its a limited approval from the state. snowmaking will be on Barons and another trail, skiers left off the top, that will cut back and connect into Barons Snowmaking will also be on the lower part, when they cut to open it up for racing. That's it. No approval for anything else.  snowmaking may actually help direct skiers who should not really be there to specific trails and keep them off the side-country stuff. There is still a ton of terrain off the top that is only hike accessible. This will have no effect on these trails. I think Barons,with snowmaking will be the best ripper on the hill; longest continuous vert around.



I thought someone said the old tbar line was going to go away too. Maybe it's just angry Cannon pass holders blowing smoke


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

You are right the old T-bar line is set to be cut eventually. However that's such an obvious line now. It's skied out in a couple hours. I loved that line 20 years ago but now it's mundane.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I thought someone said the old tbar line was going to go away too. Maybe it's just angry Cannon pass holders blowing smoke



It is going away.  They going to cut the old Taft slope to the original width.  This means the T-bar line is gone.  The snowmaking from the top will be down Barons all the way  and from Skyline to the Taft slope.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> You are right the old T-bar line is set to be cut eventually. However that's such an obvious line now. It's skied out in a couple hours. I loved that line 20 years ago but now it's mundane.


  Agree, but it still hold the snow better than others on the mtn.  

The question also is "When odes the bar go in!!!!!!!"


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Its going to be a bit. They still need to finish fundraising for Barons. Which by the way is now an "Official US Ski team training site". In other words there is some big money behind this. Apparently the old Taft Slope is a very, very  good hill to race train on. US ski team as scouted it. They love the slope and that they can train athletes on Eastern man-made hardpack early season. Apparently its closest to Euro race snow. So its probably going to happen sooner rather than late.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> I think Barons,with snowmaking will be the best ripper on the hill; longest continuous vert around.



You watch your mouth buddy.  I know change is inevitable, but don't egg this type of operation on.  Next thing you know, they'll be throwing snowmaking and grooming in on Hardscrabble.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Its funny, I've been lucky enough to poach hardscrabble a few times right after grooming and I must day its an absolute blast.I agree though, I like it nasty.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Its going to be a bit.


 I meant the drink bar.:dunce:


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Its funny, I've been lucky enough to poach hardscrabble a few times right after grooming and I must day its an absolute blast.I agree though, I like it nasty.



I think you mean Upper HArd.  I have never seen Mid Hard groomed.  And I always poach it.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Nope, Mid hard groomed. very rare but lots of fun. Ski's a bit like Upper ravine, but on steroids.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Nope, Mid hard groomed. very rare but lots of fun. Ski's a bit like Upper ravine, but on steroids.


  I have never seen it.  When was the last time?


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

I think it was 2011-12. It was midweek, right after a warm-up/rain event. I think they groomed it out to dry it out and set it up for the next snow.  It was very firm.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Attached is a map that I think sets forth the propped cut and snowmaking  pretty well.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Attached is a map that I think sets forth the propped cut and snowmaking  pretty well.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the plan to widen the trails back to their original width?


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

As far as I know this is still the plan. I know lights are out on Taft, but I don't think they narrowed the cut. No way they can narrow Barons and have it homogenized by USSA.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

If you are asking if this is wider than you expected, as far as I know this is the approved plan. It has something to do with the elevation. Above a certain elevation  can only go to orig. width. below that they can be more aggressive, henceforth the Taft cut. I think this is correct.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> I think it was 2011-12. It was midweek, right after a warm-up/rain event. I think they groomed it out to dry it out and set it up for the next snow. It was very firm.



That was the same yer they groomed over to Mitty I think.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> As far as I know this is still the plan. I know lights are out on Taft, but I don't think they narrowed the cut. No way they can narrow Barons and have it homogenized by USSA.



Personally I think it is the lesser of two evils...wider and regularly groomed as opposed to NELSAP.  I did ski it back in 2005-2006 before the new lift and it was nice, but I was hoping to see it come back.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> If you are asking if this is wider than you expected, as far as I know this is the approved plan. It has something to do with the elevation. Above a certain elevation can only go to orig. width. below that they can be more aggressive, henceforth the Taft cut. I think this is correct.



See maps.  They are at the original widths


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Barons isn't even on the B&W map. I think that's a pretty old one.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Barons isn't even on the B&W map. I think that's a pretty old one.


 That is prior to the chairlift.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

I just really think its going to help skier traffic and free up the sidecountry a bit. Most people r not going to mess around much with the rocs ad tree stumps wen they can ski man made snow under foot. I know its counterintuitive so I am interested to see how I works out.


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## Smellytele (Sep 3, 2014)

My issue is when racing is occurring on Baron's getting back and forth to Cannon proper will be an issue. Also if they are practicing on Taft then how do you get back to the lift from skiers left.


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## skiberg (Sep 3, 2014)

Races will only be a few days per year. But that is why they are making snow on the cut across trail you can see in the above map. They will station course workers to allow people to ski across the course, to the other side, when it is safe. This happens at a lot of hills.They already do it on middle ravine during races. Should not be a big prob. Training hours will lose the upper part of the trail but no affect access to base area.


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## bobbutts (Sep 3, 2014)

Some new wide groomed cruising terrain at the expense of quite a few existing natural runs.  skiberg may be right about it taking some heat off of the remaining natural terrain.  But since it's a slow, long, double chair I think most people who like that kind of terrain will stick to Peabody.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 12, 2014)

skiberg said:


> . It has something to do with the elevation. Above a certain elevation  can only go to orig. width. below that they can be more aggressive, henceforth the Taft cut. I think this is correct.


I'm pretty sure the agreement with the landswap specified all terrain cannot be cut back further than the former widest clearing.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> I'm pretty sure the agreement with the landswap specified all terrain cannot be cut back further than the former widest clearing.



+1.


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## Puck it (Sep 12, 2014)

The Bicknell Thrush problem is at a certain elevation.  The width of thtrails can only be as wide as the original trails also.  See the old maps.


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## skiberg (Sep 12, 2014)

I don't think so. I think it is ONLY that portion that deals with the land swap. In other words, State park land or land protected for the birds. That I believe is basically the top 1/4 of Mittersill.

Below that elevation I think is private land and they can basically do whatever they want provided they meet basic environmental codes etc. Don't quote me on this, but  actually raised this issue to them and if I recall correctly, that is the response I got.


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## Puck it (Sep 12, 2014)

Two maps showing the endnagered animal area.  This is in yellow on the first map. The second map shows the state park and federal land line with the dotted line. Mittersill, the ski area is on state park land.


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## skiberg (Sep 12, 2014)

I don't recall those specifics, but, they are cutting what appears to be beyond original trail width and this has been approved by the state so the idea that they cant cut beyond original width is clearly inaccurate. Keep in mind they are opening up the entire Taft slope way beyond what it was originally.


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## Abubob (Sep 12, 2014)

Clipped from proposal as updated in 2008 on page 1 of this thread:



> No new lift, trail, glade development or expansion of terrain will occur above the 2,500 foot elevation beyond the 1989 developed footprint. Existing trail and lift alignments and their widths shall be considered the maximum allowed.


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## skiberg (Sep 12, 2014)

Ok, I think that rings a bell as to why the new Taft cut will begin just below the top of the old T-bar line. I think I recall them saying they could not go to the top because of that restriction. So the cuts above on Barons must be to the original footprint because hey are above 2.5K. I also recall a discussion about what "footprint" meant. In other words, original footprint was bit wider than people expected. But the state n mountain knew what was meant by that language.


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## Puck it (Sep 12, 2014)

It look like 2500' is below the tree islands that were on Baron's. It looks like they cutting above that.  The old t-bar line top maaybe right at that 2500' level.


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## skiberg (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks for that map. I was looking for one of those. I think you are right, that has to be the explanation.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 12, 2014)

Puck it said:


> The Bicknell Thrush problem is at a certain elevation.  The width of thtrails can only be as wide as the original trails also.  See the old maps.



Well I guess they are good for one thing.


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## Cannonball (Sep 12, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Well I guess they are good for one thing.



Yes!  I've never understood all the complaining on AZ about this bird.  To me all the best terrain is off the cut trails.  And all that terrain is kept intact thanks to the thrush.  If you are a serious tree-skier you have to love this bird.


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## AdironRider (Sep 12, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Yes!  I've never understood all the complaining on AZ about this bird.  To me all the best terrain is off the cut trails.  And all that terrain is kept intact thanks to the thrush.  If you are a serious tree-skier you have to love this bird.



You realize most eastern glades do require cutting right. That bird hinders all skiers.


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## dlague (Sep 12, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Two maps showing the endnagered animal area.  This is in yellow on the first map. The second map shows the state park and federal land line with the dotted line. Mittersill, the ski area is on state park land.



Yellow - As in beginner skiers and night skiing?


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Cannonball (Sep 12, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> You realize most eastern glades do require cutting right. That bird hinders all skiers.



hahahaha!


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## skiberg (Sep 12, 2014)

Plenty of good glades already in the bicknel thrush area.


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## Puck it (Sep 12, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> hahahaha!




The he thrush uses chainsaws.


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## Abubob (Sep 13, 2014)

Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## SkiRaceParent (Sep 14, 2014)

Can someone in the know explain to me the plan for this new ski area from a race perspective? I'm a little surprised that given the tough downslope wind conditions and also heavy storms that frequent that area on the backside of the notch, coupled with the fact that last I checked Cannon didn't have a viable FIS level ski race team, where the demand would come from? Also, with Waterville, Sugarloaf, Burke and Mt. Ellen (GMVS) in the fairly nearby facility, what is to be gained above and beyond those FIS-sanctioned facilities coupled with viable ski academies?


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 15, 2014)

Where do I go with this one.Tough downslope wind conditions?Huh?Heavy storms frequenting the backside of the notch?Where ever that may be.Sugarloaf is fairly nearby?Only 2 1/2 hours down the road.
This is really all about the FSC.


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## SkiRaceParent (Sep 15, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Where do I go with this one.Tough downslope wind conditions?Huh?Heavy storms frequenting the backside of the notch?Where ever that may be.Sugarloaf is fairly nearby?Only 2 1/2 hours down the road.
> This is really all about the FSC.



I don't get why the FSC ski club is building a FIS-certified course a) in a place with highly variable weather conditions as compared to other training sites in the northeast and b) without having a FIS program. Are they building a super-G course for 8 and 9 year olds? Are they building this to rent it out to other teams, who already have multiple options to train on similar terrain, including for many at their own mountains? I respect the desire to invest in improvement and the sport of ski racing, just color me a bit confused as to the business model on recouping investment...that's all.


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## Newpylong (Sep 15, 2014)

http://www.cannonmt.com/mittersillfaq.html

*5. What’s in it for FSC?
*The Club and Cannon would renegotiate FSC’s usage contract to include training/race use of the Taft Slope venue on a consistent basis, and training/race use of Baron’s Run on a limited basis. The Club would then be able to better utilize a far safer, yet more challenging terrain area for its athletes, set away from the general public, thus offering a better and safer skiing and snowboarding experience to both Cannon’s guests and its athletes. The T-Bar installation would allow for a quicker turnaround time for both FSC athletes and the general public when accessing the lower portion of the Mittersill terrain.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I don't get why the FSC ski club is building a FIS-certified course a) in a place with highly variable weather conditions as compared to other training sites in the northeast and b) without having a FIS program. Are they building a super-G course for 8 and 9 year olds? Are they building this to rent it out to other teams, who already have multiple options to train on similar terrain, including for many at their own mountains? I respect the desire to invest in improvement and the sport of ski racing, just color me a bit confused as to the business model on recouping investment...that's all.



I think it's clear that FSC wishes to expand.  And Mr. Bode Miller is helping with the $$$ for this.  FWIW Cannon does have a history of racing...albeit a long time ago.  They had a World Cup there back in the 1960's.


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## Puck it (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And Mr. Bode Miller is helping with the $$$ for this.



I have not seen anything offical on this statment.  Have you?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I have not seen anything offical on this statment.  Have you?



Official I'm not sure.  I know I did see something a while back stating that he is a major underwriter of FSC.


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## Puck it (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Official I'm not sure. I know I did see something a while back stating that he is a major underwriter of FSC.


  I don't think so.  He may give some money.  He funds the Turtle Ridge Foundation for adaptive skiing.  Is this what you are thinking of?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I don't think so.  He may give some money.  He funds the Turtle Ridge Foundation for adaptive skiing.  Is this what you are thinking of?



No.  I've read some articles that imply the connection....this being one:

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120508/SPORTS12/705089965


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## Puck it (Sep 15, 2014)

I would not construe this as donating or even him being involved.

"Miller's family is still involved in FSC and his Turtle Ridge Foundation annually hosts a sell-out fundraiser fun race at Cannon, which this year had to be cancelled for lack of snow."


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## bobbutts (Sep 15, 2014)

Race wasn't canceled this year, not sure where that info came from.  Early April had plenty of cover this year.
Article on Bodefest


> *FRANCONIA, N.H. —*Six-time Olympic medalist Bode Miller carved his way down the slopes at Cannon Mountain on Saturday, leading the charge for Bodefest 2014.



Race Results


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Race wasn't canceled this year, not sure where that info came from.  Early April had plenty of cover this year.
> Article on Bodefest
> 
> 
> Race Results



Look at the date of the article.


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## bobbutts (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Look at the date of the article.


Thanks.. May 07. 2012 8:25PM
should have had a 2nd coffee


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Thanks.. May 07. 2012 8:25PM
> should have had a 2nd coffee



No worries.  It's one of those days for me as well......


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## skiberg (Sep 15, 2014)

Bode and his family have limited connection with FSC now and there is no concrete promise to donate $ from him. His relationship with FSC is odd. He is an alum, but he left for greener pastures as would be expected with his god given talent. Its not like he comes back to help coach or motivate kids, ever. However, I don't think he dislikes FSC in any way either. Its typical Bode, he keeps to himself.  I think people expect and anticipate that he will help, but I don't think he is quite as flush as people think he is. Many of the FSC parent as well as the parents of Holderness have far more net worth than he does. They don't necessarily need his money to make this happen, but he can certainly help. The money is coming from FSC, Holderness, USSA etc.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Bode and his family have limited connection with FSC now and there is no concrete promise to donate $ from him. His relationship with FSC is odd. He is an alum, but he left for greener pastures as would be expected with his god given talent. Its not like he comes back to help coach or motivate kids, ever. However, I don't think he dislikes FSC in any way either. Its typical Bode, he keeps to himself.  I think people expect and anticipate that he will help, but I don't think he is quite as flush as people think he is. Many of the FSC parent as well as the parents of Holderness have far more net worth than he does. They don't necessarily need his money to make this happen, but he can certainly help. The money is coming from FSC, Holderness, USSA etc.



Good info.  Thanks.  I was under the impression that he was a significant donor.


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## witch hobble (Sep 16, 2014)

Disclaimer:  me and my family are friends with some FSC families, and I know a few coaches too.  I think this will be great for them.  And I share the opinion with pretty much everybody that the way Mitt has been the last few years(seldom open and generally beat to shit quickly when it is) is a disservice to the skiing public at large. 

My concern is will it really free up Gary's, Turnpike, Time Zone etc?  If they really move over there, what happens to Ernie's Haus?  What I definitely don't want is for the ever increasing sense of entitlement that racers, coaches and race parents seem to have (this is not just an issue at Cannon) to spread even further, with this "gift"!  Cannon belongs to all NH residents.


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## Smellytele (Sep 16, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> What I definitely don't want is for the ever increasing sense of entitlement that racers, coaches and race parents seem to have ...Cannon belongs to all NH residents.



This!


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## skiberg (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't see any sense of entitlement at FSC.  With that being said, when you literally create and help build the ski area, then build and donate buildings to the ski area, then improve the snowmaking and infrastructure all at their financial cost and energy a little sense would be expected. FSC is Cannon and has been for almost 80 years.


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## SkiRaceParent (Sep 16, 2014)

skiberg said:


> I don't see any sense of entitlement at FSC.  With that being said, when you literally create and help build the ski area, then build and donate buildings to the ski area, then improve the snowmaking and infrastructure all at their financial cost and energy a little sense would be expected. FSC is Cannon and has been for almost 80 years.



Did you mean to contradict yourself from the first sentence to the rest of the paragraph? It certainly read that way.


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## witch hobble (Sep 16, 2014)

I have great respect for the history and tradition of FSC.  They have a legacy to be proud of.  That said, any family of means can buy their way in, so the "sense" you mention doesn't always manifest itself in the best of ways among adolescents.  Or their parents or minders sometimes.


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## Smellytele (Sep 16, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> I have great respect for the history and tradition of FSC.  They have a legacy to be proud of.  That said, any family of means can buy their way in, so the "sense" you mention doesn't always manifest itself in the best of ways among adolescents.  Or their parents or minders sometimes.



It is not just FSC but all similar type race clubs (parents, racers, coaches etc.)


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## skiberg (Sep 16, 2014)

I haven't seen the sense of entitlement.  I see FSC and the racers do more to care for the mountain than anyone except the state. BTW it's not like FSC is some exclusive club. It's not very expensive.


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## witch hobble (Sep 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> It is not just FSC but all similar type race clubs (parents, racers, coaches etc.)


Totally!  And I think I made that point in my first post today.  Cannon is just where I mostly ski these days.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> It is not just FSC but all similar type race clubs (parents, racers, coaches etc.)



This.  Its part of racing culture at all mountains.


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## witch hobble (Sep 16, 2014)

skiberg said:


> I see FSC and the racers do more to care for the mountain than anyone except the state.



well...there is threecy.  Kidding of course.

This should not be misconstrued as some sort of attack on FSC.  It is not.  A lot of it is the result of modern American parenting techniques.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 16, 2014)

*Here is the latest*

Exciting improvements are happening now at Mittersill!
 The Mittersill terrain improvement project is underway with Phase I expected to be complete by this winter. This project was first proposed in 2011 by Franconia Ski Club. Through an extensive process of consideration, permitting and fundraising, the project is now taking shape…
 Phase I, happening now for this winter:
 - Baron's Run, widened to 50 meters, graded, mulched & seeded....
 - New snowmaking compressor adding 28% more capacity to Cannon's snowmaking system.
 - Mittersill to remain all natural, no snowmaking, limited grooming.
 - Skyline & Ridge Run widened by 6 - 8 feet for better skiability and to accommodate future snowmaking.
 Phase II, for 2015-2016:
 - New Taft Training Slope at Mittersill, 90 meters wide.
 - New T-bar to service the Taft slope plus mid-mountain.
 - New snowmaking lines on Baron's Run, Taft Slope, Skyline, Ridge Run and new connector trail from top of T-bar to Baron’s Run.
 - All other Mittersill terrain to remain all-natural for the foreseeable future.
 - Entire project funded by Franconia Ski Club.
 This project will also allow us to operate the Mittersill Double Chair with or without natural snowfall and is expected to operated daily when Mittersill is open.
 Click here for more details:
http://www.cannonmt.com/mittersill_info.html

See More


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## Smellytele (Sep 16, 2014)

Mixed feelings about that picture mostly sad but change is inevitable and I understand the widening of Baron's. It will now be a boring blue trail


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## skiberg (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't think it will be boring. I bet you are going t o love ripping down that trail top to bottom when its groomed or loaded with Wales tails. With that being said we definitely have lost something. We will have to see if we gained anything.


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## Cannonball (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm not sure that Cannon knows the definition of "all natural".  "Mittersill to remain all natural" including all of these "all natural" elements: 
- Baron's Run, *widened *to 50 meters, *graded*, *mulched *& *seeded*....
- New snowmaking compressor *adding *28% more capacity to Cannon's snowmaking system.
- Mittersill to remain all natural, no snowmaking, limited *grooming*.
- Skyline & Ridge Run *widened *by 6 - 8 feet for better skiability and to accommodate future *snowmaking*.

No comment on the project as a whole.  But at some point they are going to have to drop their BS marketing and just call it what it is.


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## timm (Sep 16, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> But at some point they are going to have to drop their BS marketing and just call it what it is.



ALL NATURAL hahaha :roll:


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## Puck it (Sep 16, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I'm not sure that Cannon knows the definition of "all natural".  "Mittersill to remain all natural" including all of these "all natural" elements:
> - Baron's Run, *widened *to 50 meters, *graded*, *mulched *& *seeded*....
> - New snowmaking compressor *adding *28% more capacity to Cannon's snowmaking system.
> - Mittersill to remain all natural, no snowmaking, limited *grooming*.
> ...




An expansion.


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## Cannonball (Sep 16, 2014)

Puck it said:


> An expansion.



Exactly. Perfect word.   There would probably be a lot less controversy, and more enthusiasm, if they stopped playing word games.


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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2014)

I have mixed feelings about it. Though I feel for how little Mittersill has been skiiable lately it might turn out to make sense.

Still plenty of natural there, and Barons will be pretty sweet.


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## Puck it (Sep 16, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Exactly. Perfect word.   There would probably be a lot less controversy, and more enthusiasm, if they stopped playing word games.


We will just have to expand to the notch more.


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## Harvey (Sep 16, 2014)

Mittersill is/was awesome. I can see how something like that wouldn't be allow to survive. But it sucks. It was a unique experience.






MadPatSki at Mittersill


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## bobbutts (Sep 17, 2014)

http://www.taxpayersforcannon.com/news.php *September 16, 2014 *


> In one instance, explosives have been used on a trail between Skyline and the liftline, leaving large granite blocks and charge wires on the Mittersill-Cannon Hiking Trail.
> 
> In another instance, large machinery ascended the historic Taft Trail above the top of the double chairlift and apparently got stuck, leaving three foot deep ruts in its wake


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## Puck it (Sep 17, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> http://www.taxpayersforcannon.com/news.php *September 16, 2014 *




I hope they clean that up.  The Taft part for sure.


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## AdironRider (Sep 17, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I'm not sure that Cannon knows the definition of "all natural".  "Mittersill to remain all natural" including all of these "all natural" elements:
> - Baron's Run, *widened *to 50 meters, *graded*, *mulched *& *seeded*....
> - New snowmaking compressor *adding *28% more capacity to Cannon's snowmaking system.
> - Mittersill to remain all natural, no snowmaking, limited *grooming*.
> ...




And all of Cannon would be unskiable if left truely "natural" in your definition, so which would you prefer?


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## Newpylong (Sep 17, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> http://www.taxpayersforcannon.com/news.php *September 16, 2014 *



Isn't that Threecy's site? The turd that won't flush.


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## Domeskier (Sep 17, 2014)

What's the "historic Taft Trail"?  Is that like NH's Trail of Tears or something?  Should it be short listed for national park status?  Why is there no website dedicated to preserving this piece of American history?  Why!?!?


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## Cannonball (Sep 17, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> And all of Cannon would be unskiable if left truely "natural" in your definition, so which would you prefer?



I didn't make any judgement about it.  All I said was that they need to stop spinning a major expansion as being "all natural".


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## skiberg (Sep 17, 2014)

_"In one instance, explosives have been used on a trail between Skyline and the liftline, leaving large granite blocks and charge wires on the Mittersill-Cannon Hiking Trail.

In another instance, large machinery ascended the historic Taft Trail above the top of the double chairlift and apparently got stuck, leaving three foot deep ruts in its wake "_

This is old info and nothing to do with Barons. Threecey claimed these things years ago when they put the lift in. This is not related to the most recent trail cutting. Not even same part of the hill.


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## AdironRider (Sep 17, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I didn't make any judgement about it.  All I said was that they need to stop spinning a major expansion as being "all natural".




So you want to argue semantics, you don't seem to have the same beef with Sugarbush and Castlerock non snowmaking terrain. Or any other ski area that uses natural snow on trails.  This is the ski industry, and you are posting on a skiing message board, you know what marketing departments mean with "all natural". 

There will be no snowmaking on Mitt this year, I don't think their all natural product is stretching the truth. 5 years from now when they are blowing in November to get ski racers able to train, you have a point, but right now, no.


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## witch hobble (Sep 17, 2014)

Just out of curiosity, is all of phase 1 being paid for by FSC?  So the new compressor this year is part of the gift?  Increasing capacity by 28% for this year, then adding x% of snowmaking terrain at a future phase?


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## Abubob (Sep 17, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> This is the ski industry, and you are posting on a skiing message board, you know what marketing departments mean with "all natural".



Just like sugar and corn syrup being labeled "all natural"? Makes sense. Just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it's not processed or dynamited or bulldozed. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Cannonball (Sep 17, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> So you want to argue semantics, you don't seem to have the same beef with Sugarbush and Castlerock non snowmaking terrain. Or any other ski area that uses natural snow on trails.



Why do you say that? I don't recall ever being in a discussion about any of that.  So I'm not sure why you feel you know my opinions on it. 

This is a mittersill thread, so that's what we were specifically discussing and what I was specificaly commenting on.  Specifically at mittersill, i dont agree that: widening, grading, seeding, grooming, adding snowmaking, etc can be considered "all natural".  If you want to start a thread about Castlerock and Sugarbush's reporting go for it.  I can't promise I'll comment.


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## Puck it (Sep 17, 2014)

skiberg said:


> _"In one instance, explosives have been used on a trail between Skyline and the liftline, leaving large granite blocks and charge wires on the Mittersill-Cannon Hiking Trail.
> 
> In another instance, large machinery ascended the historic Taft Trail above the top of the double chairlift and apparently got stuck, leaving three foot deep ruts in its wake "_
> 
> This is old info and nothing to do with Barons. Threecey claimed these things years ago when they put the lift in. This is not related to the most recent trail cutting. Not even same part of the hill.


 

The blasting in the previous he was referring to was up in the saddle.  This off of skyline. It is the trail that connect soviet to the lifeline by the section that gets really scraped off. I think..


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## Cannonball (Sep 17, 2014)

Puck it said:


> The blasting in the previous he was referring to was up in the saddle.  This off of skyline. It is the trail that connect soviet to the lifeline by the section that gets really scraped off. I think..



Damn you autocorrect...I have no idea what you were going for. Soviet? Lifeline?  A little help here Scotty?


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## Puck it (Sep 18, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Damn you autocorrect...I have no idea what you were going for. Soviet? Lifeline?  A little help here Scotty?


WTF was that.


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## Puck it (Sep 18, 2014)

Puck it said:


> The blasting in the previous discussion by threecy was up in the saddle.  This is off of skyline. It is the trail that connects to the liftline by the section that gets really scraped off. I think..




Fixed it


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## Puck it (Sep 18, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> .  Specifically at mittersill, i dont agree that: widening, grading, seeding, grooming, adding snowmaking, etc can be considered "all natural".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## skiberg (Sep 18, 2014)

The whole natural thing is kind of a joke. Mittersil has never been natural. It's always been a ski area, albeit a bit overgrown for a few years. It's not like big Jay or burnt Mtn. Or even pony or saddle Sore. It was and is a ski area. What makes it so unique is that it was a ski area so it has vague remaining lines that are different and unique from other skiing experiences.  It is precisely the fact that it is not completely natural, yet not completely a full blown ski area that makes it so appealing.  It's the ski area that time forgot.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 18, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Specifically at mittersill, i dont agree that: widening, grading, seeding, grooming, adding snowmaking, etc can be considered "all natural".



Thats not what was stated.The remaining terrain will be left all natural


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 18, 2014)

I've always been torn with reopening of Mittersill cuz of its unique situation.I must say though its kind of hard to understand the hate towards reopening a lost ski area.When ever it has been done its been highly praised.When ever one closes its like a wake.The oppostion to reopening Mittersill has always kind of surprized me.


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## Smellytele (Sep 18, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> I've always been torn with reopening of Mittersill cuz of its unique situation.I must say though its kind of hard to understand the hate towards reopening a lost ski area.When ever it has been done its been highly praised.When ever one closes its like a wake.The oppostion to reopening Mittersill has always kind of surprized me.



It comes down to people could still ski it without the lift without much effort. Most people on here never skied it when it was originally opened including myself. People are resistant to change.


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## skiberg (Sep 18, 2014)

I agree. People act like they are skiing in the Pemi. Wilderness. The only reason mittersil is unique is because it was a ski area. Otherwise it would be like skiing gunsight. If it was truly natural we prob would have cut glades there by now, but it would be nowhere near as open.


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## bobbutts (Sep 18, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> I've always been torn with reopening of Mittersill cuz of its unique situation.I must say though its kind of hard to understand the hate towards reopening a lost ski area.When ever it has been done its been highly praised.When ever one closes its like a wake.The oppostion to reopening Mittersill has always kind of surprized me.



Major reason is that it was lift serviced and well used with a short walk before.  It wasn't as lost as the standalone lost areas where only a handful of people or less ski per season.  The lift made it more convenient which means it gets skied out faster.  Now they're going to make it into a more traditional area and are in the process of flattening and clearing and adding snowmaking to some classic terrain.  I feel like if it was going to become just another pod, they should have gone with a high speed lift.  I'm also befuddled why there's no lift service from the bottom of the hill where all the lodging is.


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## skiberg (Sep 18, 2014)

If you think it gets skied out fast now, add a HSQ you might get 1 hr. of good skiing on a powder day.


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## Puck it (Sep 18, 2014)

skiberg said:


> If it was truly natural we prob would have cut glades there by now, but it would be nowhere near as open.



Huh.  There are plenty of cut glades over there.  Birches and off Candyland to name a couple.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2014)

So, if Cannon regulars had a choice of going back to the old ways of Mittersill now would you?   I only ski there every other year or so, so my opinion matters little.  However, if Cannon was my home hill, I think I'd prefer if it was back the way it was prior to the lift install.  

And that opinion has nothing to do with the financials regarding the inflated cost of an underutilized lift.  As it looks right now, this whole process seems like it was something designed specifically to benefit a ski race club as opposed to the slack country skiing benefit it was sold as in the beginning.   Yes, the lift is cool and accesses some great natural terrain and eliminates hiking.  So, there is that benefit.  However,  it would appear the plan all along was to add a ski racing facility.  Great for them, but losing Barons as it was isn't worth it IMO.

Hopefully the Beavers get to work and reclaim new all natural terrain to replace that which was lost to the race club.


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## skiberg (Sep 18, 2014)

I understand there are glade now, what I am saying is that even if it were never developed 50 years ago glades undoubtedly would have been cut. Then it would be  natural skiing environment.

I prefer it as lift accessed. Still plenty to ski that is not lift accessed. However, in a perfect world I would take it like it was 20 years ago. It was more unknown and much less skied. Snow held for days, not hours.


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## bobbutts (Sep 18, 2014)

skiberg said:


> If you think it gets skied out fast now, add a HSQ you might get 1 hr. of good skiing on a powder day.


I'm talking about when we have a 90m wide trail (295 feet) and snowmaking and grooming.  That's wider than Double Dipper at Killington.  I did some google earth measuring and it would be wider than anything at cannon right now.  The front 5 are at most 250' width to give you some comparison.


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## 4aprice (Sep 18, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> So, if Cannon regulars had a choice of going back to the old ways of Mittersill now would you?   I only ski there every other year or so, so my opinion matters little.  However, if Cannon was my home hill, I think I'd prefer if it was back the way it was prior to the lift install.
> 
> And that opinion has nothing to do with the financials regarding the inflated cost of an underutilized lift.  As it looks right now, this whole process seems like it was something designed specifically to benefit a ski race club as opposed to the slack country skiing benefit it was sold as in the beginning.   Yes, the lift is cool and accesses some great natural terrain and eliminates hiking.  So, there is that benefit.  However,  it would appear the plan all along was to add a ski racing facility.  Great for them, but losing Barons as it was isn't worth it IMO.
> 
> Hopefully the Beavers get to work and reclaim new all natural terrain to replace that which was lost to the race club.



Isn't the "official" state sport of New Hampshire skiing?  Skiing includes racing.  New Hampshire I am sure would like to host some events and being the one state owned mountain it makes sense to have it there.  Yes you going to lose some side (back, whatever) country, but as others have said I'm sure new stashes will "crop" up and it seems to me that there is still a lot of fun stuff up there that remains undisturbed.   I for one am for the rescue of Mitt and expansion of Cannon (though I like you do not get there every season so it's JMO). NYS should do the same with the old Highmount area.  I consider these "rescues" as a better option to the cutting any new ski area out of the forest.  Wish Tenney could be saved and the original Ski 93 intact but realize it probably won't happen.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2014)

Never said racing wasn't part of skiing.  All I'm saying was when the lift was proposed, it was sold as lift serviced all natural, not future race arena.


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## AdironRider (Sep 18, 2014)

I think we are having a bit of revisionist history here. The race stuff was a more recent development, but I don't think they ever really implied that it would never have snowmaking, etc.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 18, 2014)

skiberg said:


> The whole natural thing is kind of a joke. Mittersil has never been natural. It's always been a ski area, albeit a bit overgrown for a few years. It's not like big Jay or burnt Mtn. Or even pony or saddle Sore. It was and is a ski area. What makes it so unique is that it was a ski area so it has vague remaining lines that are different and unique from other skiing experiences.  It is precisely the fact that it is not completely natural, yet not completely a full blown ski area that makes it so appealing.  It's the ski area that time forgot.








skiberg said:


> I agree. People act like they are skiing in the Pemi. Wilderness. The only reason mittersil is unique is because it was a ski area. Otherwise it would be like skiing gunsight. If it was truly natural we prob would have cut glades there by now, but it would be nowhere near as open.



Dropping names left and right. Is this Highway Star trying to get even with Puck It?


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## skiberg (Sep 18, 2014)

Yea, seems a bit like that but the people I'm talking to know all about those places. Most of them probably know more than I do.


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## witch hobble (Sep 18, 2014)

DHS is playing hindsight 20/20 more than revisionist historian.  That would be more like saying "this was the plan all along and you guys just don't know how to read".

I'll play along though.  For me personally, selfishly, yes I would go back and reject the notion of the lift.  I'm willing to hike a bit, and that way if I miss the pow day itself, there would be more soft, settled snow left to plunder in the following days.

This would let some of the $ be spent elsewhere too.


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## Cannonball (Sep 18, 2014)

There's no point in asking "..._had a choice of going back to the old ways of Mittersill now would you? _".  
1) Which "old ways"? 2 years ago? 10 years ago?  30? 50?  There's an evolution there from nothing ->developed -> dissolved -> redeveloped (present) -> future.  So your 'end point' will color your answer and it's all subjective.
2) What's done is done.  The past doesn't exist, only the present.

If the question is really  "Do I like the present configuration and future plans?"   A:  I don't care that much.   I used to like to ski over there....these days I like to ski there less.  That doesn't mean I disagree with the business decisions being made.  They are what they are.  They make sense in a lot of ways.  Only time will tell if they are profitable.

The only thing I've mentioned as "beef" (AR's term) with it is the marketing.  It is simply a redevelopment of a defunct ski area.  There is nothing wrong with that.  So why do they pretend it's anything else


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## Abubob (Sep 18, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> DHS is playing hindsight 20/20 more than revisionist historian.  That would be more like saying "this was the plan all along and you guys just don't know how to read".



The fact is, except for the recent development of race terrain, that a lift and snow making has been part of the plan for revamping Mittersill since 1999. Many people didn't know that. I didn't know that and when I heard that Mittersill would be reopened I too thought that it would be turned into a backcountry park like Jay.

When Cannon first reopened the area nothing had been done yet so it was marketed as a backcountry area. "Cannon Naturally" was only to attract attention. The following summer the access was practically bulldozed. I emailed Devivo and asked naively if the old lift towers would be left and only the loose cables be removed. "Naturally" I got no answer. It was about that time I joined this forum, did some digging myself and found the original proposal online on what was left of Mittersill's old site. The site is gone now but I may still have that PDF somewhere. It showed the plans to restore Mittersill to be fully functional lift serviced area had always been the plan.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 18, 2014)

That picture is in this thread.  The original plan was for HSQ with much wider trails.  The lift would have gone much higher.  But the federal land swap curtailed that plan.


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## witch hobble (Sep 18, 2014)

I agree there is no point.  But you could say that of x%? of the conversations here.  A lot.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> I agree there is no point.  But you could say that of x%? of the conversations here.  A lot.



Yes, absolutely no point to my question.  It was totally hypothetical.  I recognize the chair ain't coming out.  We're not going back to the way things were.  Yes, embrace the new, because that's the way it's going to be. 

And to Cannonball, everyone dates themselves regarding reminiscing about the way things were at all ski areas.  It does depend on who you ask as to what they wish Mittersill should be.  Some want it like it is now or will soon be, some wish it was like circa 2000, some circa 1990 and so on and so forth. 

Many conversations here speak in hypothetical situations.  There's been some pretty big screw ups in ski development over time all across the region, which leads to such thoughts.  Canyon area at Killington is a hot button with old timers at K.  The Front Four at Stowe.  Sunday River could have done a much better job with Oz.  Sugarloaf certainly over-widened much of their terrain.  Burke has a had a few trails wrecked even prior to the Q, that people get upset about.

End of the day,  Cannon is still an awesome ski area and will always be great no matter what happens at Mittersill.  I just asked that question because to me, I would have rather the current plan been out in the open long ago; truthful development intentions, instead of what appears to be sneaking in the long ago plan over time.  And again, my opinion does not matter at all to Cannon.  I still have that opinion though.


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## witch hobble (Sep 18, 2014)

It's a tough topic to take a nuanced stance on, because of all the Cannon threads that have polarized the internetz.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 19, 2014)

Thinking about this more,here is how I see it.If Mittersill was not sitting right next to Cannon it would never be reopened and probably lost forever.Which ever side you stand on,reopening Mittersill has to be a posiive.All the cutting(myself included) that occurred over the years was illegal and if not for that,most of the terrain would be lost.


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## Abubob (Sep 19, 2014)

I'll say this ... Cannon blew their chance at having the perfect side country stash. It could have been a winter garden a veritable paradise. And it would have also attracted dirtbags and hippies from everywhere, which is a notoriously cheap crowd.

So in terms of making MONEY it was, regrettably, the right decision. Cannon has always been maligned for being an experts only mountain (SO not true) but by adding Mittersill, the quintessential intermediate area, they can squelch that mentality and attract mega-buck spending families. So I'll say this too ... power to 'em!


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## bobbutts (Sep 20, 2014)

Abubob said:


> I'll say this ... Cannon blew their chance at having the perfect side country stash. It could have been a winter garden a veritable paradise. And it would have also attracted dirtbags and hippies from everywhere, which is a notoriously cheap crowd.
> 
> So in terms of making MONEY it was, regrettably, the right decision. Cannon has always been maligned for being an experts only mountain (SO not true) but by adding Mittersill, the quintessential intermediate area, they can squelch that mentality and attract mega-buck spending families. So I'll say this too ... power to 'em!


Totally disagree.  Mittersill is never going to compete with Loon and BW and Waterville on cruising especially with that double chair and terrain closed for racing.


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## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2014)

Yeah seriously, Mitt can never be Loon or Waterville. 

The front five is going to ski better now. Bonus!


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## Abubob (Sep 20, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Totally disagree.  Mittersill is never going to compete with Loon and BW and Waterville on cruising especially with that double chair and terrain closed for racing.



You can disagree all you want but I think that's what they're after. The chair won't close just to serve racers. I can see the racers getting tired of the slow ride to the top so there'll be a t-bar put in and boda-bing it's back to the way it useta be. Herr Von Pants would be very happy. Besides they don't need to compete on the same level as Loon or BW. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## machski (Sep 20, 2014)

Add to it that Waterville will likely see its first expansion in decades soon, Loon had South Peak and will add the beginners Pod and new base at South likely next year and BW's expansion over the last decade and Cannon needed to keep up.  Having Mitt turn more often will help attract attention to their size for the average skier in the 93 corridor.


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## Edd (Sep 20, 2014)

machski said:


> Loon had South Peak and will add the beginners Pod and new base at South likely next year...



Do you have a source for that?  I'm not seeing anything online. It would be great for Loon to disperse the crowds more.


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## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2014)

Abubob said:


> You can disagree all you want but I think that's what they're after. The chair won't close just to serve racers. I can see the racers getting tired of the slow ride to the top so there'll be a t-bar put in and boda-bing it's back to the way it useta be. Herr Von Pants would be very happy. Besides they don't need to compete on the same level as Loon or BW.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



You can cook up whatever story you want in your head, but the dead horse has already been beaten that Mitt can never expand past what it originally was. That will never compete with Loon or BW or Waterville, or whoever you want to include as a competitor.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2014)

Check Loon's website and do a search for forest service approval.  The pod will begin where the bridge crosses the pemi at South peak now (basically, escape route is included in the pod.  2 FGQ with the top one topping out basically at the escape route/cruiser intersection.)  This will also be the new base are for south and public access point.  No guarente next year, but within the next 2 I would suspect at the least.  Not sure it will thin crowds any as this will be beginner/very mellow terrain, but Loon has needed a good, dedicated beginner pod for a long time.
Here's the link http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155...i.com/11558/www/nepa/82005_FSPLT3_2325767.pdf


Edd said:


> Do you have a source for that?  I'm not seeing anything online. It would be great for Loon to disperse the crowds more.


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## witch hobble (Sep 22, 2014)

^^^ boy they are really bringing the ski area to town.  That's easy walking distance from just about anywhere.  Lincoln, NH = Eastern Vail village


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## machski (Sep 22, 2014)

Yeah, I know at times some type of Gondola from South Peak base to main street downtown had been discussed, if South Base ever gets built up condowise like envisioned, I suppose that could still happen.  Then it would be directly linked.


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## Puck it (Sep 24, 2014)

Here is a pic of the new width from distance.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 24, 2014)

You can pretty much see the before and after on the upper section.


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## bobbutts (Sep 24, 2014)

Looks like every black trail at Loon except half the vertical and a slow chair instead of a high speed.


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## Puck it (Sep 24, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Looks like every black trail at Loon except half the vertical and a slow chair instead of a high speed.




Except there is not the same exact trail on either side.


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## Puck it (Sep 24, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> You can pretty much see the before and after on the upper section.



Looking at that pic, makes me think.  What is going to happen on a race day and you ski the Birches?  How are they going to handle that one with all of the variations on entry into them.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 24, 2014)

It's been Cannon-ized!


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 25, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Except there is not the same exact trail on either side.


That will be interesting.I think I'm headed there this weekend to take a looksee in person.


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## skiberg (Sep 25, 2014)

Actually the vert on Mitt is not much different than Loon with the exception of maybe Picked Rock and that's about 1,800. Barons is 1,500 ft of vert. South Peak at loon is also about 1,800. Really nothing else has much more continuous vert. But you are right it is similar to many runs at loon, Sunday River et. We will have to see how it skis to know if its any different.


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## machski (Sep 25, 2014)

No way in hell South Peak has 1800 vert, maybe 1500.  It sits lower than the shoulder below the gondi summit and the base is the same elevation.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 26, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Actually the vert on Mitt is not much different than Loon with the exception of maybe Picked Rock and that's about 1,800. Barons is 1,500 ft of vert. South Peak at loon is also about 1,800. Really nothing else has much more continuous vert. But you are right it is similar to many runs at loon, Sunday River et. We will have to see how it skis to know if its any different.



Huh?Barons is 1300 and South Peak is about 1460.


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## Puck it (Sep 26, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Huh?Barons is 1300 and South Peak is about 1460.



More like 1200' from the start of the Super G but from top of the lift 1300'


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## bobbutts (Sep 26, 2014)

North Peak and Walking Boss are 1,584' Vertical.. That was the trail I had in mind to compare.  So Baron's is 80% as much drop.
To me, the cool thing about the double chair and smallish pod is that you don't need big when it's all natural.  When it's a groomer, every foot of vert matters as does the speed of the chairlift.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 26, 2014)

Barons starts at the lift.1300 ft.


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## skiberg (Oct 1, 2014)

Was up at the mountain this past weekend. Took a look but did not walk the trail. Apparently there really has been a lot of work done on the bottom half of the trail including rolls, jumps, side hills, berms etc. They have really reconfigured the bottom. Long and short of it is that when its groomed and you are carrying speed of 50 mph or so coming off the top, that trial is going to be an absolute blast on the bottom half.


----------



## skiberg (Oct 2, 2014)

Good article about the process on snow country. Attached below. 





In a unique public-private partnership, New Hampshire’s Cannon Mountain and Franconia Ski Club have begun the first phase of trail improvements and enhancements for the Mittersill Terrain Area at Cannon. 

The trail improvement project involves enhancing and widening some existing trails at Mittersill and installing snowmaking lines along with a new T-Bar surface lift.

The project was originally proposed by Franconia Ski Club to improve access for the general public and create additional ski race training opportunities. Franconia Ski Club will fully fund the project through fundraising; all assets and improvements will become property of the State of New Hampshire upon completion.

“This is a unique opportunity to create a world-class racing venue right at Cannon,” Cannon’s Greg Keeler told _SnoCountry.com_. Widening and clearing Baron's Run to a width of 50 meters will make it suitable for Super-G and Giant Slalom training and racing, along with the efficient and safe training slope on Taft Slalom, which will also serve as a popular public trail.

The current phase also includes the addition of a new snowmaking compressor that will add 28 percent more snowmaking capacity to Cannon's current snowmaking system. 

“The new compressor will increase the main snowmaking system at Cannon, providing better coverage for all skiers, as well as covering the improved trails at Mittersill,” Keeler told us. All of the Mittersill terrain will remain completely natural for the 2014-2015 winter season, with snowmaking installation expected in Phase II.

“One of the biggest public benefits of snowmaking at Mittersill is the ability to open the Double Chair and its skiing terrain consistently, rather than relying solely on natural snowfall,” said Keeler.

Other major improvements for Phase II include the clearing and widening of the Taft Slalom training slope to 90 meters, a new 20 meter width connecting trail back to Baron's Run from the training slope, and a new T-bar for mid-mountain access and to service the Taft training slope. Snowmaking plans also include the popular Skyline and Ridge Run route. 

Franconia Ski Club has been fundraising the estimated $4 million needed to complete the entire project. The improvements at Mittersill will allow the club to train on a dedicated trail with T-bar lift service and up to four training lanes on the Taft Slope during predetermined timeframes. Baron's Run will also see limited training or racing. The T-Bar will be open to all skiers and riders, and is expected to run on weekends and holidays. 

As Franconia Ski Club's training efforts shift to the new venue, it will free up more space for the general public at Cannon on some of the more popular trails like Gary's, Rocket, Turnpike, Banshee, and Avalanche.

“This will create a safe, segregated training area that won’t disrupt normal skiing activities,” David Fitzgerald, Franconia Ski Club President told _SnoCountry.com_. “Baron’s is one of the most outstanding trails in the Northeast, and skiers love it. The public will have a lot of use of Baron’s as we build on the state’s investment of the double chair. Ski clubs from the entire region will have access to this training and racing area as well.”

Fitzgerald added that Franconia Ski Club has been vital in maintaining and sustaining Cannon since before the ski area opened. “We realize that we are stewards of the mountain and we are very respectful of that relationship.”

_Photo: Mittersill Improvement Map (New Hampshire State Parks) _


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## Abubob (Oct 2, 2014)

skiberg said:


> The project was originally proposed by Franconia Ski Club to improve access for the general public and create additional ski race training opportunities. Franconia Ski Club will fully fund the project through fundraising; all assets and improvements will become property of the State of New Hampshire upon completion.
> 
> ...
> 
> “This will create a safe, segregated training area that won’t disrupt normal skiing activities,” David Fitzgerald, Franconia Ski Club President told _SnoCountry.com_. “Baron’s is one of the most outstanding trails in the Northeast, and skiers love it. The public will have a lot of use of Baron’s as we build on the state’s investment of the double chair. Ski clubs from the entire region will have access to this training and racing area as well.”



So ... it'll be open to the public but stay the heck out ie:"segregated" while FSC trains? As long as they stay the heck off Rocket - fine.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 2, 2014)

Sounds like the public will have very limited access to it with other ski clubs using it.


----------



## skiberg (Oct 2, 2014)

Not Barons it will only be closed like 20%. That will be limited training time, but much more extensive training once they open up the slalom training venue on the lower mountain. 

FSC hardly ever trains on Rocket.


----------



## bobbutts (Oct 2, 2014)

So did anyone figure out how you get back to Cannon when Barons is closed?
Is the t-bar going to start low enough so you can go to the bottom without walking back up?


----------



## skiberg (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't think they will close the whole trail that often. I think almost all training will happen on upper 2/3rds. That's why they are cutting second snowmaking trail off the top that will cut across eh hill and come into Barons below the training area and won't affect access to main mtn. When they have closed trails in the past, like middle ravine, they station a coach at a crossing point and he acts like a crossing guard.


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## Abubob (Oct 2, 2014)

skiberg said:


> FSC hardly ever trains on Rocket.



Who trains there then? Seems like when I'm at Cannon someone is setting up gates there or there's ruts everywhere from previous training.


----------



## skiberg (Oct 2, 2014)

Not on Rocket. the only training that takes place there is very infrequently on a Sat morning from 9-11 by a masters program. I saw Dartmouth train there for a few days last year prior to Winter Carnival. FSC trains on mostly Garys, Ravine, Time Zone and Banshee. Obviously they ski there in groups quite often.


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## Abubob (Oct 2, 2014)

skiberg said:


> Not on Rocket. the only training that takes place there is very infrequently on a Sat morning from 9-11 by a masters program. I saw Dartmouth train there for a few days last year prior to Winter Carnival. FSC trains on mostly Garys, Ravine, Time Zone and Banshee. Obviously they ski there in groups quite often.



Huh! So they're getting a significant terrain upgrade moving to Mitt. I forget if it was discussed here - what will happen to their lodge at the base of Gary's? Would they move it or rebuild?


----------



## skiberg (Oct 2, 2014)

Ernie's Haus was built by FSC many years ago. After building it they donated it to the State. Same type of deal as the Mitersill upgrades. So that building, may or may not go back to the State as FSC has a long term lease on it. Whether they build a lodge at the bottom of Baron's remains to be seen.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 2, 2014)

Abubob said:


> Who trains there then? Seems like when I'm at Cannon someone is setting up gates there or there's ruts everywhere from previous training.



You mean Gary's


----------



## SIKSKIER (Oct 8, 2014)

Nice view down the new Barons.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 14, 2014)

http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbc...HIRE03/141019559&source=RSS&template=printart


----------



## witch hobble (Oct 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Can someone in the know explain to me the plan for this new ski area from a race perspective? I'm a little surprised that given the tough downslope wind conditions and also heavy storms that frequent that area on the backside of the notch, coupled with the fact that last I checked Cannon didn't have a viable FIS level ski race team, where the demand would come from? Also, with Waterville, Sugarloaf, Burke and Mt. Ellen (GMVS) in the fairly nearby facility, what is to be gained above and beyond those FIS-sanctioned facilities coupled with viable ski academies?





SkiRaceParent said:


> I don't get why the FSC ski club is building a FIS-certified course a) in a place with highly variable weather conditions as compared to other training sites in the northeast and b) without having a FIS program. Are they building a super-G course for 8 and 9 year olds? Are they building this to rent it out to other teams, who already have multiple options to train on similar terrain, including for many at their own mountains? I respect the desire to invest in improvement and the sport of ski racing, just color me a bit confused as to the business model on recouping investment...that's all.



Lots of answers to your questions now. But I have a bunch more.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 14, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Nice view down the new Barons.



Wonder why they left the trees and shrubs?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 14, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> Lots of answers to your questions now. But I have a bunch more.



Without me going into a bunch more questions regarding who this will REALLY benefit, care to add?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 14, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Wonder why they left the trees and shrubs?



Maybe didn't get to bush wacking it yet.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe didn't get to bush wacking it yet.


  From the Facebook page, the heavy equipment has left.  They could do it by hand, but they had the equipment up there.


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## Puck it (Oct 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Without me going into a bunch more questions regarding who this will REALLY benefit, care to add?



Ski teams that practice at Cannon or temas that invited. Skiers at Cannon when there is no training or races scheduled. I think that covers it.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 14, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Ski teams that practice at Cannon or temas that invited.  Skiers at Cannon when there is training or races scheduled.  I think that covers it.



Fair enough. Sounds good for area teams who need training space, and especially the athletes that make it onto national teams from the East coast, so they dont have to train out west or in Europe all the time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbc...HIRE03/141019559&source=RSS&template=printart



Very nice.  It means that Mittersill will be open more often and helps Cannon.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 14, 2014)

Why would you publish this crap? The editor should be fired.

The title....

Two trails on reopening resort at Cannon will train top U.S. skiers

A terrific run on sentence....

The project includes widening trails, installing snowmaking and a T-bar lift for training, and developing the race-training facilities.

Inaccurate information.....

Trails on the reopening Mittersill ski area at Cannon Mountain have been designated the first official U.S. Ski Team training site on the East Coast.

It's just a giant blob of unorganized thought. Any kid who has learned how to write a 5 part essay could do a better job.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2014)

........it's the Union Leader.

That rag makes the Boston Herald look like Pulitzer prize worthy journalism.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 14, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> ........it's the Union Leader.
> 
> That rag makes the Boston Herald look like Pulitzer prize worthy journalism.



I guess it's been a few years since I've read anything from it. I forgot how terrible it gets.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 14, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> ........it's the Union Leader.
> 
> That rag makes the Boston Herald look like Pulitzer prize worthy journalism.


 And the Globe is better with rampant plagiarism.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 14, 2014)

Puck it said:


> And the Globe is better with rampant plagiarism.



What's with you and your buddy attacking mods lately?


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 14, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I guess it's been a few years since I've read anything from it. I forgot how terrible it gets.



A lot of papers are using journalism-bots lately (seriously).  But seems like the UL handed it off to the roomba.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> What's with you and your buddy attacking mods lately?



Not sure who you mean?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 15, 2014)

I skimmed the article.  Overall I find lots of gaffes and bad grammar in many publications because traditional media no longer pays well and no longer attracts talent.  

So back to the article: are folks saying that Mittersill is NOT going to be a US Ski Team training venue?


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I skimmed the article. Overall I find lots of gaffes and bad grammar in many publications because traditional media no longer pays well and no longer attracts talent.
> 
> So back to the article: are folks saying that Mittersill is NOT going to be a US Ski Team training venue?



It will for local aspiring skiers.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> It will for local aspiring skiers.



Sounds like virtually every other mountain within a 50 mile radius.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Sounds like virtually every other mountain within a 50 mile radius.



Yup, but they have the US Ski Team backing other mountains do not.  I also think it is the approved Super G course.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2014)

It would be pretty awesome if they had a few US ski team practices there each season that were open to the public.    I would hope that's the plan in calling it an official venue.  Would be good for the sport to have the athletes accessible right here in our backyards.  I know they race frequently at Whiteface, but something closer to the Boston market would be great.  I'd go.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> It would be pretty awesome if they had a few US ski team practices there each season that were open to the public. I would hope that's the plan in calling it an official venue. Would be good for the sport to have the athletes accessible right here in our backyards. I know they race frequently at Whiteface, but something closer to the Boston market would be great. I'd go.



And maybe a Tuna sighting, he could probably make a sonic boom on the run now.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Yup, but they have the US Ski Team backing other mountains do not.  I also think it is the approved Super G course.



I frankly think this sounds a lot like Burke and Sugarloaf, to name two. I get that it's good but is it really that different than those two?


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> It would be pretty awesome if they had a few US ski team practices there each season that were open to the public.    I would hope that's the plan in calling it an official venue.  Would be good for the sport to have the athletes accessible right here in our backyards.  I know they race frequently at Whiteface, but something closer to the Boston market would be great.  I'd go.



Go ski at Mt. Ellen and/or Burke, you'll definitely see some future olympians skiing those two places.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2014)

I ski at both most winters.

What can I say, I wan to see Julia up close :lol:


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Go ski at Mt. Ellen and/or Burke, you'll definitely see some future olympians skiing those two places.




Along with any other mountain.  I think Lindsey started a place not much taller than Nashoba outside of Minneapolis.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I ski at both most winters.
> 
> What can I say, I wan to see Julia up close :lol:



Ditto


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I ski at both most winters.
> 
> What can I say, I wan to see Julia up close :lol:



I'm telling on you!!!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2014)

oh....the DW knows. :lol:


----------



## skiberg (Oct 15, 2014)

USSA does not need another Burke. This is going to be a training facility with rentable lanes. The idea is something similar to a summer time at Mt. Hood. That is why the slalom slope is being cut so wide. The hope is that it is going to generate revenue. The early season Eastern North American man made snow is the most similar snow to the European race venues. Hopeful that they may get some early season US/Canadian or Euros to train.  Also, I think they hope to rent our lanes to colleges etc. for D1 prep which has become the second highest level racing in the world. You need to appreciate just how good they think these training slopes can be. It has to do with steepness and the way they roll down the hill. That's why USSA is behind this. They love the terrain potential. I hiked Bald knob Monday and took a look at the entire Barons. As a race trail it looks fantastic.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 15, 2014)

skiberg said:


> USSA does not need another Burke. This is going to be a training facility with rentable lanes. The idea is something similar to a summer time at Mt. Hood. That is why the slalom slope is being cut so wide. The hope is that it is going to generate revenue. The early season Eastern North American man made snow is the most similar snow to the European race venues. Hopeful that they may get some early season US/Canadian or Euros to train.  Also, I think they hope to rent our lanes to colleges etc. for D1 prep which has become the second highest level racing in the world. You need to appreciate just how good they think these training slopes can be. It has to do with steepness and the way they roll down the hill. That's why USSA is behind this. They love the terrain potential. I hiked Bald knob Monday and took a look at the entire Barons. As a race trail it looks fantastic.



I really do hope it does well, but I also take offense to there not being other very similar (almost identical) training venues in the east. I see no less than 4 or 5 olympians (current) every season at Burke and also athletes from many international teams on their way through, especially Canada who frequent. Also, we see all the major northeast Div 1 programs training there as well, in the 4 or 5 lanes that are set-up for GS and Slalom. On Super G, there is the trail but it isn't used as frequently, although it has hosted Nor Am Super G's in the past. Early season weather, especially through Jan 1, can be dicey to plan around, especially as one heads south toward Cannon, but I imagine that's a risk the national team is comfortable with since they can always call an audible with their funds if the conditions are not good. Overall, this is a good thing that I support but I just hope that the weather is kind in the early years during the windows when national teams can be in the US and not in Europe or elsewhere (November, mainly).


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 15, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Not sure who you mean?



More directed at Alex who is become more paranoid than Howard Hughes


----------



## skiberg (Oct 15, 2014)

Burke is its own deal and they are remarkable, but the proposed slalom slope is going to be close to 300 feet wide for heavens sake. Their is nothing close to that a Burke. Plus this terrain is better for training.


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> More directed at Alex who is become more paranoid than Howard Hughes



Huh? What choo talk'n bout Willis? Got any examples, or are you just into the good stuff from the evidence room?


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Huh? What choo talk'n bout Willis? Got any examples, or are you just into the good stuff from the evidence room?



Your little spats with TB


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Your little spats with TB



Because I said he was  the alter ego of 'skitillidie' ??  That was a joke. I hate to have to explain humor.... But it was based on the comedic principles inherent in a paradox.  TB is the furthest opposite I could think of from STID.  and trust me that's a compliment to TB.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Because I said he was  the alter ego of 'skitillidie' ??  That was a joke. I hate to have to explain humor.... But it was based on the comedic principles inherent in a paradox.  TB is the furthest opposite I could think of from STID.  and trust me that's a compliment to TB.



I'm just trolling tough guy!

I know how we can settle this...


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I'm just trolling tough guy!



I think you're STID!! But only because of the similarities. 

And for the record, Howard Hughes was an American hero.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I think you're STID!! But only because of the similarities.
> 
> And for the record, Howard Hughes was an American hero.



I would be proud to be a STID!

an American hero but a paranoid one at that.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 15, 2014)

madmadworld said:


> i'm just trolling tough guy!
> 
> I know how we can settle this...



ski offfffffffff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## SIKSKIER (Oct 16, 2014)

Super G off.


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## witch hobble (Oct 16, 2014)

During this super g off, will I be able to get back to the main mountain?  Do I have to ride a shuttle bus?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2014)

you have to go back over the saddle by foot

sorry


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 17, 2014)

Y'all can eat my snow crystals


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## witch hobble (Oct 24, 2014)

http://caledonianrecord.com/m/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=119639


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 24, 2014)

It will be interesting to see how this works out for racing.

Here are the rough stats of the Mittersill and Burke racing venues.

Stats (roughly figured using Google Earth):

*Mittersill:*
Barons (Giant Slalom/Super G)- 
Vertical: 1180'
Length: 3990'
Average Slope: 29.5%
Trail Intersections: 1.5
Width: 200-220'
Lift: Double chair (easily accessible from bottom and top)
Terrain features: ? I've never skied Barons and the recent bulldozing has likely significantly modified whatever was there before.

TBar Slope (Giant Slalom/Slalom)-
Vertical: 705'
Length: 2000'
Average Slope: 35%
Trail Intersections: less than 5
Width: 250-400'
Lift: Dedicated T-bar (easily accessible from bottom and top)
Terrain Features: ? I've never skied these slopes and the planned bulldozing will likely significantly modify whatever is currently.

*Burke:*
Upper/Lower Dipper (Super G)
Vertical: 1430'
Length: 5340'
Average Slope: 27%
Trail Intersections: 6-7
Width: 100-175'
Lift: HSQ (easily accessible from bottom and top)
Terrain Features: Kind of a slow flat starting area, that transitions into a steep to low pitch rolling terrain with multiple blind rollovers/jumps.

Warren's Way (Giant Slalom/Slalom)-
Vertical: 1100'
Length: 3110'
Average Slope: 35%
Trail Intersections: 5-6
Width: 100-230'
Lift: Dedicated Poma (easily accessible from bottom and top)
Terrain Features: Steep upper half transitions to a short "flat" into a medium pitch lower half. A few mild rollovers/fall-aways.

The big advantage Mittersill is going to have is Super G training isn't going to hog up one of Cannon mountain's primary Blue trails servicing the summit. Safety netting could likely be left up year round. The trails are super WIDE allowing for many more options for course setting and "safer" crashing.


----------



## skiberg (Oct 24, 2014)

My understanding is that UsSA really likes the terrain at Mittersill. That is the big reason they are behind this. They have compared the terrainto some training spot on a glacier in Europe which I can't remember. All I know is that the USSArep raved about the terrain for training purposes. This does not mean that it will be the best race course in the area it simply means that for training this terrain is going to be perfect for what they're looking for. It has something to do with the pitch, the number of rolls, in the way the terrain flows down the mountain. Keep in mind, this is all contingent upon FSC completing the fundraising. They still need another 2 million or this thing is dead in the water.


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## SIKSKIER (Oct 27, 2014)

[h=3]From WCAX website

US Ski Team to train at Cannon's Mittersill area[/h]_Posted: Oct 24, 2014 10:00 AM EDT_<em class="wnDate">Friday, October 24, 2014 10:00 AM EDT</em>_Updated: Oct 24, 2014 10:02 AM EDT_<em class="wnDate">Friday, October 24, 2014 10:02 AM EDT</em>[h=6][/h]



FRANCONIA, N.H. (AP) - The U.S. Ski Team will begin training next year at Cannon Mountain's Mittersill ski area in New Hampshire's White Mountains.
The Caledonian Record reports that the U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association reached an agreement with Cannon, the Franconia Ski Club and Holderness School to use Mittersill starting next season.
The ski area is currently spending about $3 million dollars on snowmaking and other improvements including widening of trails.
Eric Harlow, USSA Eastern region alpine director, tells the paper the area will become a world-class training center.
Mittersill was closed for more than two decades before reopening in 2009. It offered back-country skiing with limited grooming and, until next year, no snow-making.
Mittersill will be one of four USSA training sites, joining ski areas in Idaho, Colorado and California.
_Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed._


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 27, 2014)

Ski it while you can...


----------



## machski (Oct 27, 2014)

Been a while for this in the Northeast.  WV use to host World Cup slaloms, Sugarloaf had been a sanctioned area and held events and if I remember correctly, Attitash use to be a training venue as well.  Glad to see a Northeast area grab this by the horns!


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## Puck it (Oct 27, 2014)

I am begiining to wonder a little about this.  Will the USSA be paying for the snowmaking and lift operation when it is just the snowmaking trails open and they are closed to the public?


----------



## bobbutts (Oct 27, 2014)

So does the USSA mean it will be used a higher percentage of the time than we were talking about earlier?


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## Puck it (Oct 27, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> So does the USSA mean it will be used a higher percentage of the time than we were talking about earlier?


  Thus my commnet.  Who is paying to ski a trail pod that is closed to the public?


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Thus my commnet.  Who is paying to ski a trail pod that is closed to the public?



I think you know the answer to that.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 27, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I think you know the answer to that.


  I know.  My increase in season pass price.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 27, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I know.  My increase in season pass price.



I think it's premature to say that. It could be the same thing as what we used to do at Sugarbush on Inverness. If the whole mt. is open and there is terrain for everyone then it's business as normal. If snow is being made and lifts closed to the public on Inverness then the school and club pay for it. Of course Sugarbush is not state owned, but you would have to read into whatever agreement was made.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Oct 28, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Thus my commnet.  Who is paying to ski a trail pod that is closed to the public?


From Cannons website:
The improvements at Mittersill will allow the club to train on a dedicated trail with T-bar lift service and up to four training lanes on the Taft Slope during predetermined timeframes. Baron's Run will also see limited training or racing. The T-Bar will be open to all skiers and riders, and is expected to run on weekends and holidays

I dont believe you will see anything running at Mittersill without public access.That would really inflame a lot of people.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 28, 2014)

So are they planning to just blow snow on that one trail? If that is the case, why would even bother running the t-bar on weekends and holidays unless all of Mittersill is open?


----------



## skiberg (Oct 28, 2014)

I believe this has been covered exhaustively already, but Barons and the new cut open slope will only be closed a percentage of the time. The US Ski Team training probably will happen in the early season PRIOR to mid December. Not saying they wont train other times also, but once the season is underway no need for them to be at Cannon. It has something to do with the NE snowmaking snow and how similar it is to mid-season conditions in Europe. They can get similar conditions here before they head over to Europe.
I do not believe USSA has committed any money YET. Probably will, but not yet.
Also, keep in mind, IF this happens and IF they train, they will pay Cannon for the use of the hill. So don't think this project will raise anyone's season pass costs.
Whether they train or not its not going to increase the footprint of the project.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 28, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Thus my commnet.  Who is paying to ski a trail pod that is closed to the public?



The USSA pays a very high rate to have access to terrain.  They pay for the entirety of the cost of snowmaking on the race trail at Copper to gaurantee it gets open for them.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 29, 2014)

The question I have is...
I know at Copper they train there very early in the season even before the mountain opens to the masses and sometimes before the euro season starts. With Cannon the Euro season will be well on its way before snow can even be made so who will be training there? I am assuming those who are on the B team hoping to make the A team?


----------



## SIKSKIER (Oct 29, 2014)

Smelly raises the exact question I have.I wonder if there are breaks in the season where it would be used or maybe late season?


----------



## Puck it (Oct 29, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Smelly raises the exact question I have.I wonder if there are breaks in the season where it would be used or maybe late season?



And if it is only the training trails open will and the USSA paid for the snowmaking will the public be allowed over there.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 29, 2014)

Puck it said:


> And if it is only the training trails open will and the USSA paid for the snowmaking will the public be allowed over there.



You need not go any farther than the Colorado mountains that cater to academy, international and USSA teams this time of year to understand how it works...they are Copper, Loveland and Beaver Creek. Essentially, how it will work is that 3 or 4 trails will be closed to the public and 'laned' off into 4 or 5 (or less or more depending on the width) training courses that the teams will use. They will rent these lands, usually for something in the hundred, or low thousands of dollars per session plus lift tickets for athletes and coaches. What I foresee as usage of this training complex, if it ever gets completed, is perhaps for athletes who are on the development teams and sort of on the fringe of the world cup circuit. Nolan Kasper from Burke and Julia Ford from Okemo/Holderness would be two good examples. Right now, they train a lot at the ski schools in the northeast when they are not in Europe, and then may pop over there for a race or two, then come back. It would save them the flight back all the way to Colorado or the high cost of staying in Europe to train.

I really don't see a role for the A team except perhaps a 'cameo' if the snow conditions are good around the time of the Beaver Creek and Lake louise (north american) races around last week in November and first week in December. Then after that, they will be in Europe all the way through unless World Championships or olympics are in North America, which may happen once every 15 years or so.

For younger, less established athletes who are in the national training program, Mittersill could be a good place to escape from the Academies for camps and speed training. Perhaps it would be a good place to host Junior Nationals every once in awhile as well in the rotation with Park City and Sugarloaf that is going on right now.

The real winners will be area college teams. I bet if affordable and good to work with, Dartmouth, UVM, UNH, etc. will be there a lot.


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## skiberg (Oct 29, 2014)

I think you have identified the most likely usage. I doubt you will be seeing any A-Teamers. Probably the pay your own way guys and gals. It will be sporadic and probably have minimal affect upon the skiing public.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 29, 2014)

Julia Ford will be training there this year!


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## doublediamond (Oct 29, 2014)

There's no speed skiing in collegiate racing.  Only GS and SL.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 29, 2014)

doublediamond said:


> There's no speed skiing in collegiate racing.  Only GS and SL.



Yes however a wide and long trail better enables a long course of GS gates. Also most of the carnival level racers will be racing nor ams and a few even world cups or Europa cup races so there is some super G training even at the NCAA level.


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## witch hobble (Oct 30, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> The real winners will be area college teams. I bet if affordable and good to work with, Dartmouth, UVM, UNH, etc. will be there a lot.



PSU is D1 these days, and the student senate ski package is always Cannon for the general student/employee deal.  You'd think the ski team might abandon Waterville for Cannon now too.


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## skiberg (Oct 30, 2014)

Julia trained at Canon last year. She is an FSC alum. You need to understand that this development is taking place as D1 college racing in North America has become basically the second highest level of racing in the world. Also,my understanding is that the barons course will be a homologated super G for women. So I think it's accurate to say the college racing will benefit from this development


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

UVM and Dartmouth do go to Burke every once in a while (or did). I could see Dartmouth going to Cannon a few times. UVM has Stowe in their backyard and I don't see them driving 2:30 or so for Cannon. Maybe though....


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## skiberg (Oct 30, 2014)

We are not talking about day-to-day training. They will stay at their home mountains for day-to-day training. Training at Canon will be periodic and very specific purposes. It's a sport it's contested in the 100ths of seconds any advantage they can get they will try and find. They fly six hours to ski for five days in July, they will drive to or three hours to ski for a weekend in November.
all of this assumes however that this does not become Home hill  to some college. They've already been in talks with a number of D1 programs who are interested in putting their program at Canon full-time. Don't be surprised if it happens because that is going to be a big portion of where the remaining 2 million comes from.


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## witch hobble (Oct 30, 2014)

I know this is the intertube and all, but let's try to spell the mountain's name correctly here


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## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2014)

witch hobble said:


> I know this is the intertube and all, but let's try to spell the mountain's name correctly here


Auto correct


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## skiberg (Oct 30, 2014)

Siri


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

skiberg said:


> We are not talking about day-to-day training. They will stay at their home mountains for day-to-day training. Training at Canon will be periodic and very specific purposes. It's a sport it's contested in the 100ths of seconds any advantage they can get they will try and find. They fly six hours to ski for five days in July, they will drive to or three hours to ski for a weekend in November.
> all of this assumes however that this does not become Home hill  to some college. They've already been in talks with a number of D1 programs who are interested in putting their program at Canon full-time. Don't be surprised if it happens because that is going to be a big portion of where the remaining 2 million comes from.



I understand that.  I just don't think that UVM would be there that often if at all.  Is Middlebury going to go there?


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> UVM and Dartmouth do go to Burke every once in a while (or did). I could see Dartmouth going to Cannon a few times. UVM has Stowe in their backyard and I don't see them driving 2:30 or so for Cannon. Maybe though....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes they are at Burke quite often in season where they rent afternoon lanes.

On skibergs point about colleges funding, doubt that would happen. Perhaps a parent booster associated with a college but a college isn't going to pay out of pocket for something they can just rent, which is what they have already elsewhere. Also, on the point for travel, sure, they may not come all the time, but if the state and or the Cannon ski club are going to try to at least make back ongoing operating expenses they will have to fill up their lanes consistently or else the project won't work well in the long run.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

Well it will be exciting to see what happens with Mittersill.  I drove up there the other day and the work was done.  From what I could see they did a good job.  There was some snow near the top of Lafayette.


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## Puck it (Oct 30, 2014)

This is a dead horse thread right now.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Oct 30, 2014)

Puck it said:


> This is a dead horse thread right now.



It is only now a dead horse?


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## witch hobble (Nov 1, 2014)

Puck it said:


> This is a dead horse thread right now.


I sorta feel that this whole chat forum message board thing (not just AZ but literally all of them) is just people taking turns whacking a giant dead horse for their own, or others, amusement.


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## tree_skier (Nov 2, 2014)

skiberg said:


> We are not talking about day-to-day training. They will stay at their home mountains for day-to-day training. Training at Canon will be periodic and very specific purposes. It's a sport it's contested in the 100ths of seconds any advantage they can get they will try and find. They fly six hours to ski for five days in July, they will drive to or three hours to ski for a weekend in November.
> all of this assumes however that this does not become Home hill  to some college. They've already been in talks with a number of D1 programs who are interested in putting their program at Canon full-time. Don't be surprised if it happens because that is going to be a big portion of where the remaining 2 million comes from.



UNH and PSC for sure Dartmouth some Also Holderness.  Along with this you could see many colleges both D-1 and USCSA teams using it for a week or 2 over winter break


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 7, 2015)

Work starts again next week.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=251


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## Puck it (Apr 7, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Work starts again next week.
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=251



Snowmaking pipe in 2016.


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## xwhaler (Apr 7, 2015)

On the one hand having that chair run all the time and not be totally reliant on natural snow is probably not terrible but what happens when it doesn't snow?
The racers ski over there but no one else? Are they going to rope up skiers left of Mittersill and only allow racers on the lift in lean snow times?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2015)

I would think a fair compromise is that racers aren't allowed to take over both trails at the same time.  They can use Barons or Taft, but not both.


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## dlague (Oct 26, 2016)

Here it comes!  The first big race on Barons!  UNH Carnival ski race January 27-28th.

BTW FSC got a grant to buy 200 more rolls of safety netting.


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## Smellytele (Oct 26, 2016)

dlague said:


> Here it comes!  The first big race on Barons!  UNH Carnival ski race January 27-28th.
> 
> BTW FSC got a grant to buy 200 more rolls of safety netting.



Grant from where?


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## dlague (Oct 27, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Grant from where?



On FB page for Mittersill Improvement Project



> We are proud to announce that the Kelly Brush Foundation has awarded the Franconia Ski Club a second Ski Racing Safety Grant! This matching grant will help purchase 200 more rolls of safety netting to line the new training and racing venues on Mittersill. We are working hard to be "Race Ready/Race Safe" for the rapidly approching ski season. Thank you Kelly Brush Foundation, for supporting this Project and promoting ski racing safety in such a direct way!


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## skiberg (Oct 27, 2016)

Probably from USSA/US ski team. They have given quite a bit already and makes sense since NCAA champs will be there.


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## skiberg (Oct 27, 2016)

Sorry, I didn't see Kelley Brush. That's where it came from. 


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 1, 2016)

Saw that race announced a month ago.Looks like there wil have tol be snow made on Barons and Taft Slope by mid Jan then.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I would think a fair compromise is that racers aren't allowed to take over both trails at the same time.  They can use Barons or Taft, but not both.



Saw this quote from April but it seems appropriate to reply now.The UNH race is shceduled for 2 days with both both trails being used for different events.I'll bet there will be an access issue here on both on those days.


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## skiberg (Nov 1, 2016)

If they use both trails so be it, it's a State university using a State facility for 2 days. It just does not seem like a big deal to me.


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## dlague (Nov 1, 2016)

skiberg said:


> If they use both trails so be it, it's a State university using a State facility for 2 days. It just does not seem like a big deal to me.



Of note, I would probably be best to ski elsewhere that weekend - that is the only big deal!  I was never a big fan of Cannon when there were race events going.  Training was OK but race events not so much.


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## Puck it (Nov 1, 2016)

skiberg said:


> If they use both trails so be it, it's a State university using a State facility for 2 days. It just does not seem like a big deal to me.


Unless it is a powder day and the Birches and Candyland are calling!!!!!!


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## skiberg (Nov 1, 2016)

Not sure how they handle it without any facilities. The Lodge  is going to be packed. Ski out of the Tram that day.

I will however say that my experience when skiing at mountains when major events, including FIS events, are ongoing is that its just the opposite. The people who come to watch generally don't ski. The Public skier stays away and even some pass-holders will stay away. Call me crazy but I am willing to bet there will be no lines that weekend. I have done this a number of times and the ski areas are always uncrowded.


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## Jully (Nov 1, 2016)

skiberg said:


> Not sure how they handle it without any facilities. The Lodge  is going to be packed. Ski out of the Tram that day.
> 
> I will however say that my experience when skiing at mountains when major events, including FIS events, are ongoing is that its just the opposite. The people who come to watch generally don't ski. The Public skier stays away and even some pass-holders will stay away. Call me crazy but I am willing to bet there will be no lines that weekend. I have done this a number of times and the ski areas are always uncrowded.



Interesting. Count me in the category of staying away. I've avoided Sugarloaf whenever there has been a major event, like the US Alpine Champs a few years ago. Same thing at Wildcat whenever they host major races. Maybe I'll reverse that pattern this year. Highly doubt K will be skiable the weekend of the FIS races though...


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## dlague (Nov 1, 2016)

skiberg said:


> Not sure how they handle it without any facilities. The Lodge  is going to be packed. Ski out of the Tram that day.
> 
> I will however say that my experience when skiing at mountains when major events, including FIS events, are ongoing is that its just the opposite. The people who come to watch generally don't ski. The Public skier stays away and even some pass-holders will stay away. Call me crazy but I am willing to bet there will be no lines that weekend. I have done this a number of times and the ski areas are always uncrowded.



I have been at Cannon for during high school and even Jr racing events and when they are not racing they attack the slopes with what feels like total disregard towards others.  I can take care of my self but I feel bad for the not so good skiers and riders that get buzzed.  During the races the Zoomer Chair and Eagle Cliff Chair get significant lines with spill over onto Peabody and Mittersill.  With it being solely on Mittersill maybe things will be different.  After one or two of those experiences we generally went elsewhere.


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## 4aprice (Nov 1, 2016)

dlague said:


> I have been at Cannon for during high school and even Jr racing events and when they are not racing they attack the slopes with what feels like total disregard towards others.  I can take care of my self but I feel bad for the not so good skiers and riders that get buzzed.  During the races the Zoomer Chair and Eagle Cliff Chair get significant lines with spill over onto Peabody and Mittersill.  With it being solely on Mittersill maybe things will be different.  After one or two of those experiences we generally went elsewhere.



High School's is a huge event with kids from all up and down the east coast.  My boy was in it 2013 at Cannon and 2014 at Attitash. Its spring, everyone's outside, I'm not surprised you saw a lot of the racers out playing around.

On the opposite spectrum I was at Dartmouth Skiways a couple of years ago and there was a race going on, the parking lot was full but if you didn't see the course, and have Worden's closed you would have never known it, as we literally had the mountain to ourselves. Oh yeah it was a powder (3-4 inch) day too.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2016)

I was at Whiteface 2 years ago when they had the NCAA championship and the place was not bad at all. There were schools from Alaska to Maine there. Most of the racers were blondes from Northern Europe. They had their own separate area in the lodge. The best part was when they all walked in for lunch - It was like a beauty pageant parade. Actually that night in lake placid at the dance club was the best.


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## Puck it (Nov 1, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> I was at Whiteface 2 years ago when they had the NCAA championship and the place was not bad at all. There were schools from Alaska to Maine there. Most of the racers were blondes from Northern Europe. They had their own separate area in the lodge. The best part was when they all walked in for lunch - It was like a beauty pageant parade. Actually that night in lake placid at the dance club was the best.


stalker


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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2016)

Puck it said:


> stalker



More lurking than stalking


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