# Suicide Six's name



## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

While Vermont has been a blue state for quite some time, I've noticed that in the past few years the concept of taking offense to anything and everything has really blossomed.  Free speech be damned, nobody should ever be offended even to the slightest degree.

I've surprised, therefore, that mental health "advocates" have not taken issue with the name of the Suicide Six ski area.  Remember all of the controversy over Vermont Teddy Bear's "Crazy For You" bear?  

I predict that in the next few years there will be a movement to have the name changed.  Maybe I should start hoarding trail maps to sell on Ebay someday.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

If we are heading down the PC slope, then both big squaw and squaw valley should change their name as well, as the word "squaw" is considered by some Native Americans to be a derogatory term for a woman


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

Good point.  I bet you that there are even more ski areas that could be targeted.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2014)

*Kill*ington

would probably upset the same PC crowd as those that don't care for the Suicide Six name.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

Let's add smugglers north to the mix while we are at it. Smuggling is illegal and should not be glorified


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

Or whiteface. Clearly that's racist


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Let's add smugglers north to the mix while we are at it. Smuggling is illegal and should not be glorified


I just looked up "notch" on urbandictionary.com.  I was surprised to see just how tame the definition was.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Or whiteface. Clearly that's racist


Just ask Nick Cannon.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

Let's see, who else.....

Angelfire (blasphemy?)
Beaver Creek and Beaver Mtn (Why not just call it Vagina Mtn instead?)
Gore (synonymous with blood, possibly torture, also I don't think Al Gore approves of skiing)
Magic - there will be no supporting of witchcraft or sorcery in the state


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm a mental health advocate and professional. The "Crazy for You" bear thing was quite legit and don't forget it was in a straight jacket. If it was just a bear that was labeled "Crazy for You" then no one would have batted an eye. Just as no one thinks "Suicide Six" is a problem because it is not like its' logo is someone hanging in a closet or holding a gun to their head. A name is one thing, imagery is another.

In terms of the bear there are still a lot of older individuals that grew up in "facilities for the feeble minded" and such places that spent days in straight jackets or confined because it made the staffer's life easier. When you actually see a nine year old girl have to be restrained and put in a chair  because the hallucinations she is seeing are so frightening she permanently blinds herself by attempting to cut her eyes out of their sockets maybe you would understand the whole straight jacket thing. It is a horrible thing to witness.

You're messing with apples and oranges here.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

A quick look at Liftopia shows that Michigan has all sorts of offensive ski area names:
- The Porkies
- Mt. Zion
- Shanty Creek Resort
- Nubs Nob
- Indianhead
- Snow Snake
- Pine Knob


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

Tin said:


> I'm a mental health advocate and professional. The "Crazy for You" bear thing was quite legit and don't forget it was in a straight jacket. If it was just a bear that was labeled "Crazy for You" then no one would have batted an eye. Just as no one thinks "Suicide Six" is a problem because it is not like it's logo is someone hanging in a closet or holding a gun to their head. A name is one thing, imagery is another. There are still a lot of older individuals that grew up in "facilities for the feeble minded" and such places that spent days in straight jackets or confined because it made the staffer's life easier.
> 
> When you actually see a nine year old girl have to be restrained and put in a chair or some device because the hallucinations she is seeing are so frightening she permanently blinds herself by attempting to cut her eyes out of their sockets maybe you would understand the whole straight jacket thing. It is a horrible thing to witness.


Your position is well though out and reasonable.  Never underestimate the ability of progressive Vermonter's to ignore logic reason.  Just look at all of the people opposed to smart meters and fluoride.  This is why I put the word "advocates" in quotation marks.

I do appreciate you taking the time to share those thoughts.  It's so much more mature than just saying: "You're an idiot."


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

How long until protests develop over "Satan's Stairway" at Ski Sundown?


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Your position is well though out and reasonable.  Never underestimate the ability of progressive Vermonter's to ignore logic reason.  Just look at all of the people opposed  flouride.



Here is where you might not like me lol. I have also worked in one of the best neurology labs in the country for the past four years and let's just say there is an interesting correlation (notice correlation, not causation) between shallow wells (not just ones exposed to pesticides on farms), fluoride, and Parkinson's. As always, more research needs to be done.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

Uh oh.  We better walk away slowly from the fluoride bomb.  Very slowly...  ;-)

I will, however, leave you with this link:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antifluoridation-bad-science/


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2014)

Tin said:


> Here is where you might not like me lol. I have also worked in one of the best neurology labs in the country for the past four years and let's just say there is an interesting correlation (notice correlation, not causation) between shallow wells (not just ones exposed to pesticides on farms), fluoride, and Parkinson's. As always, more research needs to be done.



Please ignore the tree hugging liberal folks


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> A quick look at Liftopia shows that Michigan has all sorts of offensive ski area names:
> - The Porkies
> - Mt. Zion
> - Shanty Creek Resort
> ...



snow snake and Pine Knob? who would that offend


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## Highway Star (Aug 28, 2014)

Tin said:


> I'm a mental health advocate and professional. The "Crazy for You" bear thing was quite legit and don't forget it was in a straight jacket. If it was just a bear that was labeled "Crazy for You" then no one would have batted an eye. Just as no one thinks "Suicide Six" is a problem because it is not like its' logo is someone hanging in a closet or holding a gun to their head. A name is one thing, imagery is another.
> 
> In terms of the bear there are still a lot of older individuals that grew up in "facilities for the feeble minded" and such places that spent days in straight jackets or confined because it made the staffer's life easier. When you actually see a nine year old girl have to be restrained and put in a chair  because the hallucinations she is seeing are so frightening she permanently blinds herself by attempting to cut her eyes out of their sockets maybe you would understand the whole straight jacket thing. It is a horrible thing to witness.
> 
> You're messing with apples and oranges here.



Thank you for your well considered post.  OP is an idiot.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2014)

IIRC the founder named it "Suicide Six" for alliteration purposes....


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Uh oh.  We better walk away slowly from the fluoride bomb.  Very slowly...  ;-)
> 
> I will, however, leave you with this link:
> http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antifluoridation-bad-science/



Oh yes, it could just be a confound we are spending too much time on. Who knows, like I said, more research. Maybe it could cure cancer, who knows.


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Please ignore the tree hugging liberal folks



I might rock a Planned Parenthood shirt a times but I'm far from a liberal. There are three sides to every story.


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 28, 2014)

We can't have mts named after weapons either.I still have an old poster somewhere that says "Cannon...its a blast.


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## St. Jerry (Aug 28, 2014)

Whiteface could kill 2 birds with 1 stone if they changed the name to IceFace.  A more PC name and more accurate name to describe the mountain


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2014)

Tin said:


> I might rock a Planned Parenthood shirt a times but I'm far from a liberal. There are three sides to every story.



I was referencing your ability to run into trees when you ski


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## Tin (Aug 28, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I was referencing your ability to run into trees when you ski



It was already down and blended in with all the snow, if I saw it I would have avoided it lol


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## jaytrem (Aug 28, 2014)

Cedar Point, and amusement park in Ohio, once named a new coaster "Banshee".  Some religeous groups took offense and put up a big stink.  7 days later they changed the name to "Mantis".  Oddly enough they decided to use the "Banshee" name for a new coaster at one of their other parks (also in Ohio) this past year.  I guess they didn't want to waste the money spent on trademarking the name.  I didn't hear of any backlash this time. 

Link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_(roller_coaster)


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2014)

jaytrem said:


> Cedar Point, and amusement park in Ohio, once named a new coaster "Banshee".  Some religeous groups took offense and put up a big stink.  7 days later they changed the name to "Mantis".  Oddly enough they decided to use the "Banshee" name for a new coaster at one of their other parks (also in Ohio) this past year.  I guess they didn't want to waste the money spent on trademarking the name.  I didn't hear of any backlash this time.
> 
> Link...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_(roller_coaster)



Went on that this summer. Awesome amusement park.


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## jimk (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm from Redskins country.  How do you guys feel about that name for an NFL team?   Naturally, since I've been rooting for them since the '60s I prefer to keep it.  In the context of our team history and spirit it is totally meant as an expression of honor/courage/tenacity, the same as warrior or brave.  It is only with the application of new perspectives, biases, or interpretations that it has come to equate to a racial or ethnic slur by some folks.  Having said that, it's only a friggin' game and if the name now pisses off a significant portion of the population, even if they are primarily outside the Redskins fanbase, then who am I to insist it stays?  The team owner says something to the effect of "over my dead body" about the name change, but the funny thing is I hear he would stand to make millions in selling modified merchandise for all fans who need to update their jerseys, ball caps, and key chains


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## dlague (Aug 28, 2014)

jimk said:


> I'm from Redskins country.  How do you guys feel about that name for an NFL team?   Naturally, since I've been rooting for them since the '60s I prefer to keep it.  In the context of our team history and spirit it is totally meant as an expression of honor/courage/tenacity, the same as warrior or brave.  It is only with the application of new perspectives, biases, or interpretations that it has come to equate to a racial or ethnic slur by some folks.  Having said that, it's only a friggin' game and if the name now pisses off a significant portion of the population, even if they are primarily outside the Redskins fanbase, then who am I to insist it stays?  The team owner says something to the effect of "over my dead body" about the name change, but the funny thing is I hear he would stand to make millions in selling modified merchandise for all fans who need to update their jerseys, ball caps, and key chains




I say leave it alone!  I get what it stands for in the right way!


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2014)

jimk said:


> I'm from Redskins country.  How do you guys feel about that name for an NFL team?   Naturally, since I've been rooting for them since the '60s I prefer to keep it.  In the context of our team history and spirit it is totally meant as an expression of honor/courage/tenacity, the same as warrior or brave.  It is only with the application of new perspectives, biases, or interpretations that it has come to equate to a racial or ethnic slur by some folks.  Having said that, it's only a friggin' game and if the name now pisses off a significant portion of the population, even if they are primarily outside the Redskins fanbase, then who am I to insist it stays?  The team owner says something to the effect of "over my dead body" about the name change, but the funny thing is I hear he would stand to make millions in selling modified merchandise for all fans who need to update their jerseys, ball caps, and key chains



It is not how you or I feel about it. It is how the Native Americans feel about it. (I know they came from somewhere else to but...). Actually unfortunately it will come down the advertisers.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

The origin and historical use of the term Redskin has been completely distorted in the era of political correctness.  But if people truly find it offensive, what does that matter?  As a supporter of the First Amendment, I do not  believe that government should be allowed to mandate a name change.  But as a person who appreciates that term is genuinely offense to many people, I think that the organization should change the name.  There isn't much to be gained by keeping it at this point.  There have been plenty of name changes in sports history.  It's not that big of a deal to have one more.


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## 4aprice (Aug 28, 2014)

jimk said:


> I'm from Redskins country.  How do you guys feel about that name for an NFL team?   Naturally, since I've been rooting for them since the '60s I prefer to keep it.  In the context of our team history and spirit it is totally meant as an expression of honor/courage/tenacity, the same as warrior or brave.  It is only with the application of new perspectives, biases, or interpretations that it has come to equate to a racial or ethnic slur by some folks.  Having said that, it's only a friggin' game and if the name now pisses off a significant portion of the population, even if they are primarily outside the Redskins fanbase, then who am I to insist it stays?  The team owner says something to the effect of "over my dead body" about the name change, but the funny thing is I hear he would stand to make millions in selling modified merchandise for all fans who need to update their jerseys, ball caps, and key chains



If they are forced to change the name I'm done with the NFL.  It's been around for 80 some odd years and now its a problem?  Enough of the pink socks and gloves too.  (Yes I'm sympathetic to beast cancer victims) Wouldn't a nice little pink ribbon decal on the back of the helmet be enough?  

Suicide Six?  Isn't the name derived from Hill #6 and the fact that people thought it would be suicide to ski it back in the day.  Where is that politically incorrect?  I call them all "professional offendies".

Alex

Lake  Hopatcong, NJ


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2014)

then there is bacon...
http://www.travelerstoday.com/artic...stro-cafe-road-sign-advertisement-offends.htm


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## dlague (Aug 28, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> then there is bacon...
> http://www.travelerstoday.com/artic...stro-cafe-road-sign-advertisement-offends.htm



I saw a FB post about this and threw in a few from this thread to show how ridiculous this is becoming!


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Aug 28, 2014)

My alma mater (St. John's Univ.) changed their basketballs team name from Red Men to Red Storm back in the 90's.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

4aprice said:


> Suicide Six?  Isn't the name derived from Hill #6 and the fact that people thought it would be suicide to ski it back in the day.  Where is that politically incorrect?  I call them all "professional offendies".


Once again, you are mistakenly applying logic to this issue.  There are tons of "advocates" in Vermont who treat logic and facts in the same manner that Superman treats kryptonite.  They keep their distance.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

Some more ski areas that might be targeted:
- Ski Bluewood
- Mount Peter
- Sawkill Family Ski Center
- Cockaigne
- Owl's Head
- China Peak
- Brian Head
- Beaver Mountain
- Beaver Creek Resort
- Big White


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Remember all of the *controversy over Vermont Teddy Bear's "Crazy For You" bear?  *



That actually happened? LULZ

Liberals tirelessly SEARCH for things to_"pretend"_  to be offended by.



jimk said:


> *I'm from Redskins country.  How do you guys feel about that name for an NFL team?*



The name is actually complimentary historically, not racist in the slightest, and surveys of actual American Indians (not that the PC police give a rat's ass) show it's much ado about nothing.



Smellytele said:


> *then there is bacon...*
> http://www.travelerstoday.com/artic...stro-cafe-road-sign-advertisement-offends.htm



I will never eat there again.  This is beyond ridiculous.   And the MAYOR'S reaction in actually praising the restaurant for removing the sign as somehow being "inclusive" and "culturally diverse / promoting diversity" in some alternate universe was even more ridiculous (though predictable).


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## steamboat1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Heck the whole White Mountain range is racist. Except of course for Black Mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Heck the whole White Mountain range is racist. Except of course for Black Mountain.



That's offensive.  It should be African American Mountain.  

Call Al Sharpton.


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## bobbutts (Aug 28, 2014)

I dare any of you to go up to a native and address him as Redskin.  Of course it's derogatory and you know it.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

Should be get rid of the Chicago Blackhawks too? What about KC Chiefs? Like a quarter of professional sports teams have "offensive" names. If we are gonna get rid of one, we need to get rid of all of them to avoid a double standard


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## bobbutts (Aug 28, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Should be get rid of the Chicago Blackhawks too? What about KC Chiefs? Like a quarter of professional sports teams have "offensive" names. If we are gonna get rid of one, we need to get rid of all of them to avoid a double standard


I'm not advocating any particular action, just disagree with those that claim that "Redskins" not offensive.  I believe it's a disingenuous argument.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

As I stated earlier, just because it may not have been an offensive term in the past does not mean that it is not offensive in the present.  I also believe that the affected group has the right to judge whether or not it is offensive.  It is not my place to make that determination.


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## dlague (Aug 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> I dare any of you to go up to a native and address him as Redskin.  Of course it's derogatory and you know it.



Do not want to get to deep on this one since I know how this forum can blow up but ....

I am part Native American Indian about 35% - mostly Algonquin and a little Mohawk.  I remember a time in the 60 and 70's when that term had a more positive meaning.  Redskin was first recorded in the late 17th century and was applied to the Algonquian peoples generally, but specifically to the Delaware (who lived in what is now southern New York State and New York City, New Jersey, and eastern Pennsylvania). Redskin referred not to the natural skin color of the Delaware, but to their use of vermilion face paint and body paint.  The term later lead to stand for qualities of strength, honor, bravery and courage, hence the reason is has been used for sports teams.   In fact there are 62 schools across the US that still use that term for their team and the following are Native American schools: Red Mesa High School (Arizona), Wellpinit High School Wellpinit, Washington and Kingston High School Kingston, Oklahoma.

Has the term been switched to have negative conotations - absolutely (later in history).  The original users of the term - Native Americans.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2014)

On a separate note I find it ridiculous that the trademark board ruled against them because they believe it is racist and derogatory. If people actually saw a list of some of the names and slogan that are okay they would probably be horrified. Things that are a lot more racist than Redskins


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 28, 2014)

A little further off topic...
I was in Baltimore's airport yesterday and one of the shops had little toy planes. There was one plane left on the two hooks that held Baltimore Ravens planes. 
The two hooks holding Redskins planes were completely full.


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## legalskier (Aug 28, 2014)

Blue Knob

http://blueknob.com/index.php/mountain/trail-map


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> A little further off topic...
> I was in Baltimore's airport yesterday and one of the shops had little toy planes. There was one plane left on the two hooks that held Baltimore Ravens planes.
> The two hooks holding Redskins planes were completely full.



Well, BWI is closer to Raven's Territory than Washington's.


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## AdironRider (Aug 28, 2014)

This thread shows the pussification of America.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> A little further off topic...
> I was in Baltimore's airport yesterday and one of the shops had little toy planes. There was one plane left on the two hooks that held Baltimore Ravens planes.
> The two hooks holding Redskins planes were completely full.



In other news, Patriots pro shop still has a fully stock supply of Mark Sanchez jerseys


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> I dare any of you to *go up to a native* and address him as Redskin.  Of course it's derogatory and you know it.



Oh the irony!



MadMadWorld said:


> On a separate note *I find it ridiculous that the trademark board ruled against them because they believe it is racist and derogatory. If people actually saw a list of some of the names and slogan that are okay they would probably be horrified. *Things that are a lot more racist than Redskins



That's because it was done for political reasons.    100% politics, 100% of the time.  Neverending campaign mode.   



AdironRider said:


> *This thread shows the pussification of America.*



Amen.    

Men cant even tell a female coworker something as innocent a compliment as, _"oh, you look pretty today" _due to fear of losing their job.  

Actually, more like fear of losing their job, being banned from their industry, and then tarred and feathered.


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## bobbutts (Aug 28, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> This thread shows the pussification of America.


Yeah, it has been getting progressively worse.  We used to be able to do non-pussy stuff like genocide against the natives.  Now you can't even run a multi-billion dollar company with a racist trademark without some people suggesting you change it.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

Talk about taking it to the extreme ends of the spectrum.


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## bobbutts (Aug 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh the irony!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, it is so tough being a gainfully employed upper class white man, aka victim.  We're persecuted at every turn.


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## Cannonball (Aug 28, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> This thread shows the pussification of America.



+1.  If  you give a F about teddy bears or still pay attention to the NFL you are fully pussified!

 Can we all agree that the NFL is the antithesis of of the american ideal?  Paying big money to sit on your ass and watch overgrown children bang into each other would make our founding fathers cry in their beer.  I don't care about the redskins changing their name.... I just want to set them go away.  Especially during ski session!


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## AdironRider (Aug 28, 2014)

But but but FREEEDOM RIIIIIIINGS! 

You know the point I'm making.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> We used to be able to do non-pussy stuff like genocide against the natives.



There was no "genocide" against Native Americans.

You either don't really understand what the word, "genocide" means, or are severely lacking in your understanding of American history.



EDIT:  The third alternative is bobbutts was one of the unfortunate schoolchildren who was fed propaganda as a child (aka Howard Zinn's, _"A People's History of the United States"_, which is virtually solely responsible for advancing the false "genocide" myth).


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> I agree,* it is so tough being a gainfully employed upper class white man*, aka victim.  We're persecuted at every turn.



Can you even explain what this means?



Cannonball said:


> *
> Can we all agree that the NFL is the antithesis of of the american  ideal?  Paying big money to sit on your ass and watch overgrown children  bang into each other would make our founding fathers cry in their beer. *  I don't care about the redskins changing their name.... I just want to  set them go away.  Especially during ski session!



That's why I sit on my couch and watch it on TV.......with a beer!


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## Cannonball (Aug 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> There was no "genocide" against Native Americans.



+1. We completely failed in our goals in this arena.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2014)

And to think that this started out as a discussion about a ski area.....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## moresnow (Aug 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you even explain what this means?



This I'm guessing this should sum it up. 

Louis CK - Time Travel is Excluslively a White Pr…: http://youtu.be/87LGmm1M5Is

Or maybe not.


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## jimk (Aug 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> A little further off topic...
> I was in Baltimore's airport yesterday and one of the shops had little toy planes. There was one plane left on the two hooks that held Baltimore Ravens planes.
> The two hooks holding Redskins planes were completely full.



Not Redskins country, Ravens country.
BTW, I have a little stuffed Redskins football with towel that I keep in my office to show my true colors.  It looks sort of like this, but with a towel too:  
I got it about five years ago at a t-shirt shop in of all places, Hampton Beach, NH.;-)

Thanks for moral support from most of you on my team name, I'll take that as a HAIL TO THE REDSKINS!


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## Cannonball (Aug 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And to think that this started out as a discussion about a ski area.....



No it didn't.  It was pretty explicitly about "taking offense to anything and everything".


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## Not Sure (Aug 28, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> No it didn't.  It was pretty explicitly about "taking offense to anything and everything".



Redskins should change their name to "Get over it's " or " Go root for someone else's"

Bottom line is people have too much time on their hands , every time somone gives in to "sensitivity" it encourages more of the same.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Bottom line is people have too much time on their hands , *every time somone gives in to "sensitivity" it encourages more of the same.*



Well-said.  

But not only that, whenever people express this "mock outrage" in order to make themselves feel better about themselves (which is why they do it), they're diminishing and trivializing the evils of real, actual, racism.


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## Cannonball (Aug 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's why I sit on my couch and watch it on TV.......with a beer!



It's your time, spend it how ever you want.  Any amount of the ski season spent on the couch feeding the NFL revenue machine would make me feel like crap.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> It's your time, spend it how ever you want. * Any amount of the ski season spent on the couch feeding the NFL revenue machine would make me feel like crap*.



Wow, you really _arent_ a football fan.  About 90% of the regular season occurs prior to the ski season. lol.  And then the last 2 games of the season are usually during Christmas/New Years holiday week when I steer clear of ski resorts anyway.  So almost 100% of the NFL season occurs on non-ski days.

 For the playoffs, if the conditions are good, I'm not watching NFL unless my team's involved.  Though I may catch some of a playoff game during my lunch break.


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## Cannonball (Aug 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, you really _arent_ a football fan.



Sorry, was I unclear about that?


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## gmcunni (Aug 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> That's offensive.  It should be African American Mountain.
> 
> Call Al Sharpton.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 28, 2014)

There's a trail at Winter Park called "Drunken Frenchman." I've always gotten a kick out of that. It's a pretty long bump trail with no bailout, so I can guess where the name came from.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Yeah & what's the deal with the "White House?"


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## Smellytele (Aug 29, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> In other news, Patriots pro shop still has a fully stock supply of Mark Sanchez jerseys



There is in the Jets pro shop as well seeing he is now with the Eagles.


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## dlague (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well-said.
> 
> But not only that, whenever people express this "mock outrage" in order to make themselves feel better about themselves (which is why they do it), they're diminishing and trivializing the evils of real, actual, racism.



Exactly how Obama got elected!


.......


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 29, 2014)

Here are 2 trademarks that haven't been tossed:

Uppity Negro

and

You Can't Make a Housewife Out Of a Whore

Hmmm....Redskins don't seem all that bad now!


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## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Here are 2 trademarks that haven't been tossed:
> 
> Uppity Negro
> 
> ...


The first trademark application was refused: http://trademarks.justia.com/860/53/uppity-86053392.html

The second one appears to have been extended, meaning it is not in commercial use: http://trademarks.justia.com/857/84/you-can-t-make-a-housewife-out-of-a-whore-85784601.html

There is no doubt, however, that the decision to cancel the Redskins trademarks was political.  And if you don't believe that it was, I suppose you believe that those IRS emails just happened to get deleted.


----------



## dlague (Aug 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> There is no doubt, however, that the decision to cancel the Redskins trademarks was political.  And if you don't believe that it was, I suppose you believe that those IRS emails just happened to get deleted.



Exactly!


----------



## Savemeasammy (Aug 29, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> There is in the Jets pro shop as well seeing he is now with the Eagles.



Good for the Eagles.  Every team needs a solid water-boy!


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The first trademark application was refused: http://trademarks.justia.com/860/53/uppity-86053392.html
> 
> The second one appears to have been extended, meaning it is not in commercial use: http://trademarks.justia.com/857/84/you-can-t-make-a-housewife-out-of-a-whore-85784601.html
> 
> There is no doubt, however, that the decision to cancel the Redskins trademarks was political.



Okay, but he still has a point.  Heck I can think of a few off the top-of-my-head that one would think are objectionable to nutjobs in our ultra PC, cowering under the table, world.   

And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "Fighting Irish" yet.  Oh..... wait...... that's right, - they're white, so the leftist PC police don't care since they cant collect self-congratulatory back-pats with that crusade.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

There is a very good chance that the cancellation of the Redskins trademark was done in violation of the First Amendment.  At least this guy thinks so, and he has done quite a bit of research (although it is somewhat dated by now): http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1229475?uid=3739696&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104634576703


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

Thinking about this a little more... I see that the Redskins have appealed the decision of the PTO based on both First and Fifth Amendment claims.

I predict that they will win.  If they do, this will have backfired on the people complaining against the name.  This could be their "a bridge too far" moment in that they probably could have gotten the name changed if they kept up pressure through other means.  By pushing politics through the PTO, they could wind up with VERY bad precedent for their cause.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 29, 2014)

Fighting Irish is a good example. I'd imagine if the team name was something else, and they wanted to change it to the Fighting Irish, there would be an uproar.

What about the Celtics? An Irish leprechaun with shamrocks. Extreme stereotyping. Not to mention a pipe in his mouth. The list goes on and on.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 29, 2014)

Since we've already gone off on a PC tangent I figured I'd post this. I found this in my grandmothers house a while back and thought it was pretty funny.

Guessing it was printed in the 70's?


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 29, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Since we've already gone off on a PC tangent I figured I'd post this. I found this in my grandmothers house a whole back and thought it was pretty funny.
> 
> Guessing it was printed in the 70's?



At first I thought you were referencing the name of the game.  Then I scrolled down all the way!!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> *Fighting Irish is a good example.*



*Fighting Sioux = *Racist. Millions of dollars spent on a campaign by left-wing groups. Protests. Pressure. Boycotts - and a name change. :uzi:
*
Fighting Irish = *Play ball! 

No blatant hypocrisy there.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Aug 29, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Since we've already gone off on a PC tangent I figured I'd post this. I found this in my grandmothers house a while back and thought it was pretty funny.
> 
> Guessing it was printed in the 70's?
> 
> View attachment 13487



I don't see anything wrong with that picture.  So the mom & daughter are washing dishes after dinner while the dad and son play games. Maybe tomorrow night dad will cook dinner and junior will clean up afterward while mom & daughter play xbox.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> *Fighting Sioux = *Racist. Millions of dollars spent on a campaign by left-wing groups. Protests. Pressure. Boycotts - and a name change. :uzi:
> *
> Fighting Irish = *Play ball!
> 
> No blatant hypocrisy there.



True but I think 99% of Irish folks either don't care about the name or wear it like a badge of honor.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Aug 29, 2014)

skifastr said:


> I don't see anything wrong with that picture.  So the mom & daughter are washing dishes after dinner while the dad and son play games. Maybe tomorrow night dad will cook dinner and junior will clean up afterward while mom & daughter play xbox.



I don't see anything wrong with it either. You wouldn't see an image like that printed on a board game now though.

Feminists would complain that the woman is being unfairly stereotyped as the "homemaker" and therefore is less equal


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## bobbutts (Aug 29, 2014)

Regardless of semantics, you are going to not only defend this, but wish that you could go back in time.  You are welcome to act like your in the Klan.. Just man up and admit that you are racists, pussies.



> From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus landed in the Americas to the end of the 19th century, the indigenous population of the Western Hemisphere declined, mostly from disease, to 1.8 million from around 50 million, a decline of 96%.[SUP][36][/SUP] In Brazil alone, the indigenous population declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated 3 million to some 300,000 (1997).[SUP][37][/SUP][SUP][38][/SUP] Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from 8.4 million to 112.5 million.[SUP][39][/SUP] However, Robert Royal stated, "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."[SUP][40][/SUP]
> Epidemic disease was the overwhelming direct cause of the population decline of the American natives.[SUP][41][/SUP][SUP][42][/SUP] After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, the death of 90 to 95 percent of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles.[SUP][43][/SUP] Some estimates indicate that smallpox had a 80–90% fatality rate in Native American populations.[SUP][44][/SUP]
> British commander Jeffery Amherst may have authorized the intentional use of disease as a biological weapon against indigenous populations in the Americas.[SUP][45][/SUP][SUP][46][/SUP] It was the only documented case of germ warfare and it is uncertain whether it successfully infected the target population.[SUP][47][/SUP]
> Some historians argue that genocide, as a crime of intent, does not describe the colonization experience. Stafford Poole, a research historian, wrote: "There are other terms to describe what happened in the Western Hemisphere, but genocide is not one of them. It is a good propaganda term in an age where slogans and shouting have replaced reflection and learning, but to use it in this context is to cheapen both the word itself and the appalling experiences of the Jews and Armenians, to mention but two of the major victims of this century."[SUP][48][/SUP]
> ...


----------



## skiNEwhere (Aug 29, 2014)

So yea, suicide six. Somewhat questionable name


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 29, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> So yea, suicide six. Somewhat questionable name
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using AlpineZone



So from what I read Suicide Six = KKK


----------



## Edd (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm just pondering that a typical Klan guy doesn't have many opportunities to make a snowklansman. 

You know, the south.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> *True but I think 99% of Irish folks either don't care about the name or wear it like a badge of honor*.



Yes, but so too, did the vast majority of relevant Native American groups not have a problem with these various names. 

So who does? 

Typically white liberals, who are the ones creating the furor and protesting in an overtly showy, self-aggrandizing, and public manner.




bobbutts said:


> Regardless of semantics, you are going to not only defend this, but wish that you could go back in time.  *You are welcome to act like your in the Klan.. Just man up and admit that you are racists, pussies.*




 Holy Hades!

I was prepared to argue the facts given Colonial America history is one of my favorite subjects, but the above response demonstrates you're likely not entirely stable, or at the very least, a bit of a wing-nut (fairly polite version).

I will note, however, that I found great amusement in the fact that the very copy & paste job you laid down not only harms your argument, but again demonstrates that you likely don't even know what the word "genocide" means.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

Edd said:


> I'm just pondering that* a typical Klan guy doesn't have many opportunities to make a snowklansman. *
> 
> *You know, the south*.



Are you suggesting that southerners are disproportionately likely to be racist?

That's_* SO*_ offensive! Everyone reading that is offended.    YOU'RE A BIGOT!!!


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

The Burlington Free Press had a follow-up article on the Sneaker's Cafe bacon sign incident.  This quote from the article is about as well-reasoned and mature as I could have imagined:

_Islam Hassan is the imam, or religious leader, of the Islamic Society of Vermont, based in Colchester. He drives around the Winooski rotary every day, and he said he found nothing offensive about the Sneakers bacon sign.

"It doesn't tell you to go inside and eat," he said.

"The life of a Muslim living in the West, we go to restaurants that serve pork," Hassan continued. "We're very careful not to have any pork on our plates." How, he wondered, could that sign "be offensive to us?"

Taking offense with the Sneakers bacon sign is equivalent to being offended by signs that say "bar," Hassan said, as Islam prohibits drinking alcohol.

The woman who started the conversation on Front Porch Forum, the online newsletter, does not represent the local Muslim community, Hassan said.

"Islam forbids eating the flesh of pork," Hassan said. "But it never said to insult or offend the people who are consuming it."_


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Burlington Free Press had a follow-up article on the Sneaker's Cafe bacon sign incident.  *This quote from the article is about as well-reasoned and mature as I could have imagined:*



You call it_ "well-reasoned and mature"_, I call it common sense.  

The mayor of Winooski disagrees though.  



> The mayor of the town, Winooski, Vt., commended the diner for taking down the sign. *“The cool part of living in a diverse community is that it’s not always comfortable”*



Forget the ridiculousness of the issue at hand, and just try to wrap your noodle around the idiocy of that statement.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 29, 2014)

Somebody needs to organize a bacon festival in front of city hall.  

Being sensitive to other cultures is not about restricting your behavior / cultures (within the confines of law) as to not offend others.  It's about accepting that other people are different from you.  You do what you do. I do what I do.  

I bet Winooski must have a big ole "holiday tree" in December.


----------



## dlague (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> You call it_ "well-reasoned and mature"_, I call it common sense.
> 
> The mayor of Winooski disagrees though.
> 
> ...



Not really sure Vermont is that diverse!


----------



## Edd (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Are you suggesting that southerners are disproportionately likely to be racist?
> 
> That's_* SO*_ offensive! Everyone reading that is offended.    YOU'RE A BIGOT!!!



I take this in jest. My thought was that more Klansman are probably from the south. 

Making that little snowklansman probably made them forget about all the racism. Just for a little while.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm not getting into the geographical distribution issue, but most people don't realize that Vermont and the Klan have a history: http://www.vermonter.com/vtpress/ku-klux-klan-in-vermont/#sthash.8HDbekbb.dpbs


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## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

If you want to see a typical description of Vermonter's who write the crazy op-ed pieces that pop up everywhere around here, just take a look at the bio of the author of an opinion piece just published on VTDigger:
_[Name] is a writer and consultant with over 20 years experience in critical analysis, program development, and advocacy on issues of violence and oppression across issues and identities._

For those of you with real jobs, have you ever felt the need to explain your background in that manner?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> *Being sensitive to other cultures is not about restricting your behavior / cultures* *as to not offend others.  It's about accepting that other people are different from you.*  You do what you do. I do what I do.



Well-said.



deadheadskier said:


> *I bet Winooski must have a big ole "holiday tree" in December*.



Oh, that's almost a guarantee.


----------



## Tin (Aug 29, 2014)

I think I will have my freshmen in Logic 101 go through this thread to find all the Straw Man, Appeals to Tradition, and Red Herring arguments.

I don't have a problem with opinions but for f*ck's sake if you're going to have one at least be able to support it without name calling and childish bickering.


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 29, 2014)

Tin said:


> I think I will have my freshmen in Logic 101 go through this thread to find all the Straw Man, Appeals to Tradition, and Red Herring arguments.



Don't forget the ad hominems.



> I don't have a problem with opinions but for f*ck's sake if you're going to have one at least be able to support it without name calling and childish bickering.



I guess you didn't!


----------



## 4aprice (Aug 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Once again, you are mistakenly applying logic to this issue.  There are tons of "advocates" in Vermont who treat logic and facts in the same manner that Superman treats kryptonite.  They keep their distance.



BTW My daughter is in the state college system in Vermont.  They give the students a break every 6 weeks, because...  wait for it... they are afraid of students *committing suicide*.  I had never heard of this before, apparently students in Vermont are more prone to suicide.  I went to school in New Hampshire and saw some kids really almost go crazy during the January term with what I would term "Cabin Fever" (obviously non skiers) but never heard of someone think about suicide.  Maybe that's what they are worried about with the ski area.


Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

4aprice said:


> BTW My daughter is in the state college system in Vermont.  They give the students a break every 6 weeks, because...  wait for it... they are afraid of students *committing suicide*.  I had never heard of this before



In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal.  It's somewhat fascinating.

It's a natural thing for states over time to move to the right or move to the left a bit:

Slightly conservative to moderate
Slightly liberal to moderate
Moderate to slightly liberal
Moderate to slightly conservative
etc......

This is a completely normal/natural political occurrence due to migration, economic changes, and a host of other changes.

But the amazing thing about Vermont is that it went from "slightly conservative" to "San Francisco extremist liberal" in one fell swoop, in a _"Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200"_ fashion, and is now one of the most liberal states in America. 

 I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004 to my gf's lifelong VT-resident father, who claimed that would "never" happen in Vermont.  But it was an easy call for me to make.  The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push.  The entire population influx to the state is in Chittenden County and just outside, and it's not organic growth, but inorganic growth from New York, Massachussetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island (a who's who of northeastern liberal states).  What's more, the native Vermonter tends to (understandably) have a negative view of politics and often doesn't vote, whereas the recent transplants all vote, and they all vote (D).


----------



## Cannonball (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I predicted this about 10 years ago, circa 2003/2004



It must be exhausting knowing so much more about everything than everyone.  Do you ever get worn down by being so much superior than the rest of us? It seems like a huge burden. More power to you for carrying that weight. And nice work on your predictions.... About literally everything.


----------



## Edd (Aug 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> The 'N's in Vermont are very low, so it's easy to push.



What does that mean?  Google isn't helping me.


----------



## Cannonball (Aug 29, 2014)

Edd said:


> What does that mean?  Google isn't helping me.



It means that there are only about a half million people in VT. It's well within BG's powers to predict the behavior of such a small group.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> It must be exhausting knowing so much more about everything than  everyone.  Do you ever get worn down by being so much superior than the  rest of us? It seems like a huge burden. More power to you for carrying  that weight. And nice work on your predictions.... About literally  everything.



Wow!  Someone's cranky and upset.









Edd said:


> *What does that mean?*  Google isn't helping me.



It's the number of items in a population or members in a study, etc..   So the smaller the number in a study, the more likely you are to experience outliers or large swings.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal.  It's somewhat fascinating.
> 
> 
> But the amazing thing about Vermont is that it went from "slightly conservative" to "San Francisco extremist liberal" in one fell swoop, in a _"Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200"_ fashion, and is now one of the most liberal states in America.
> ...



You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont.  Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late.   Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative?  I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005.  It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then.  Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.

Leahy has been around since 1974.  

All of the Republican US Senators in Vermont's history dating back to the 50s were as liberal as they come.  Prouty, Stafford, Aiken, Jeffords......all of them were RINOS.  


**sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 30, 2014)

As often as I agree with BenedictGomez, I am with Deadheadskier on this one.  Predicting that Vermont would shift radically to the left in 2003/2004 was like predicting that the Red Sox would win the world series after they were in the clubhouse popping champagne and being fitted for their rings.  The shift had already happened.  Bernie Sanders was elected mayor of Burlington in 1981.  Jim Jeffords switched parties in 2001.  He didn't switch because he was good at predicting the future.  He switched because he was a dinosaur.  Jim Douglas (R) was only elected governor because the Democrats and the Progressives split the liberal vote.  He only held on because Vermonters are all but incapable of ousting an incumbent.

The shift in politics had its roots in the counter-culture movement and the construction of the interstate highway system in Vermont.  It was in large part a reaction to the fact that cities in New England in the 1970's sucked.  (Boston school bussing riots, anyone?)  We forget just how bad they were.  Second tier cities, such as Lowell or Holyoke, were even worse.  

Heck, even the New York Times recognized these changes in 1986: http://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/31/us/vermont-shifting-to-left-in-a-flow-of-newcomers.html  Being the New York Times, they were probably giddy with excitement at the prospect, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## Tin (Aug 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> In the last 15 to 20 years, Vermont has turned uber-liberal.  It's somewhat fascinating.
> 
> It's a natural thing for states over time to move to the right or move to the left a bit:
> 
> ...




My thought...


----------



## 4aprice (Aug 30, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont.  Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late.   Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative?  I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005.  It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then.  Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.
> 
> Leahy has been around since 1974.
> 
> ...



Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it.  Yes DHS they were always that way but BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid.  And your own state of New Hampshire (and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore.  If this is passing for financial wisdom the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired.  To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 30, 2014)

4aprice said:


> Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it.  Yes DHS they were always that way but BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid.  And your own state of New Hampshire (and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore.  If this is passing for financial wisdom the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired.  To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



As a life long resident of NH we have changed faster than VT to the left. Vt was always left leaning and NH was the last NE hold out of the right.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 30, 2014)

One fundamental change is that younger people are either undereducated or they are coming out of college with massive debt.  They have a lot of lost years that they can never make up.  The cost of higher education is arguably one of the biggest restraints on our economy right now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You obviously know very little about the political history of Vermont.  Your prediction in 2003/2004 was about 50 years too late.   Did you just look at Wikipedia and see the domination by the Republican party in politics and assume that the State was conservative?  I started living in Vermont full time in 1990 and stayed through 2001, then returned for 2004-2005.  It was already the most liberal state in New England during the early 90s and probably decades before then.  Prior to the mass influx of out of staters moving to Chittenden County for certain.
> Leahy has been around since 1974.   All of the Republican US Senators in Vermont's history dating back to the 50s were as liberal as they come.  Prouty, Stafford, Aiken, Jeffords......all of them were RINOS.
> **sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**



You missed the entire point of what I wrote.  It's not that a shift was occurring (yes, that was obviously happening), it's the *dramatic uber-shift* that occurred, and *how quickly *it occurred.  And you can sit back in,_ "I can tell you what the weather was yesterday"_ fashion and say that that was obvious to everyone - but it simply wasn't at that time.     Also, your statement that Vermont was "the most liberal state in New England by 1990" is way off-base, I imagine just looking at election returns would show places like MA and RI etc... were more blue, but I don't think we need to expand the scope of this even further.




4aprice said:


> *Vermont's about to go to the big experiment (read what their health plans are), we shall see how that works out, because (from what I've read) they don't have the money or tax base to do it.*



  Vermont is screwed, and the average Vermonter has no idea (I'm sure DHS will say I'm wrong about that too).  It's _somewhat_ healthy now, but you can already see what's happening.  With the tax & spenders recently in power, budget deficits will continue to increase, as will per capita debt.  And all the artificial $83,000/year government jobs they parachute into the state aren't going to fix it.  Citizens of Vermont are already some of the heaviest taxed people in America, so the juice is gone from that lemon.  There is one unusual trend Vermont is admittedly bucking though - people are still moving there.  If you look at map of the highest taxed states in America, people are leaving them, but Vermont is the exception.  Though the migration to VT is generally from other, highly taxed NE states, so that might serve to explain that a bit.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2014)

4aprice said:


> Yes DHS they were always that way but *BG's point of them swerving more that way is valid. *



And not just a swerve, but a rapid, seismic landslide from being merely  normal "left" to "crazy extremist wackadoodle left".  Like if a normal  Republican area of America just upped and (relatively) quickly started  voting like evolution-denying pockets of rural Texas.  That change  happened quickly.  If DHS etc... wants to argue the total change was  occurring over years, well, yeah, okay, but the fact is the state went  from routine, pragmatic, Bill Clinton Democrat voting behavior to San  Francisco Nanci Pelosi nonsense *quickly*.



4aprice said:


> And *your own state of New Hampshire *(and I've heard lifetime NH residents say this) *used to be "Live Free or Die" but its not that anymore. *



DHS denies the above.

SEE: Posts 53 & 62

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...age6?highlight=new+hampshire+democrat+liberal




4aprice said:


> If this is passing for financial wisdom *the economics lessons being taught today in our education system leave a lot to be desired.*  To quote Andrew Cuomo (his words not actions) "The tax payers are broke".



They teach Economics?  Hardly seems it in most places.  Frankly, I've  always thought you could solve a lot of America's woes if children  learned finance/economics from a young age.  Politicians wouldnt be able  to pull the wool over people's eyes nearly as much.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 30, 2014)

To be fair, Vermont has not run a deficit despite having no Constitutional mandate to avoid a deficit.  On the other hand, Vermont has tapped into its rainy day funds and has relied heavily on federal stimulus money - so there is definitely trouble ahead.  

Also, Vermont's population has not grown at all since the 2010 census and it is not forecast to be any higher in 2030 than in 2010.  And keep in mind that IBM's plant is not what it used to be and will be shuttered sooner than later.

The liberals seem to focus on one thing - the unemployment rate.  But that is deceiving.  In my nearly 17 years in Vermont, I have seen many good jobs eliminated and numerous lousy jobs crop up.  The only private sector that has held its own is the health care industry - except that this is deceiving because the rate of pay in this industry (at least for doctors) has increased at well below the rate of inflation.  

The real growth has been in education and government.  Vermont's education spending is out of control, and the unions are doing everything in their power to make sure it stays that way.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> *As a life long resident of NH we have changed faster than VT to the left.* Vt was always left leaning and *NH was the last NE hold out of the right*.



NH is/was the Alamo.  The result will be the same.



VTKilarney said:


> One fundamental change is that *younger people* are either undereducated or they *are coming out of college with massive debt.  They have a lot of lost years that they can never make up*.  *The cost of higher education is arguably one of the biggest restraints on our economy right now*.



And they also have the highest unemployment rate of any age bracket, increasing total loan value. 

 College is now a commodity, and the truth is, TOO MANY people go to college.  Like the, "everyone must own a home" lie, the "everyone must go to college" mantra is equally absurd.  Student Debt has basically been a government fueled bubble.

But speaking of homes, the above is also impairing First-Time Homebuyers, which is a key component and necessary rung for the health of the Real Estate market.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Aug 30, 2014)

The whole point of college was to get a leg up on your peers with higher education. Except that since everyone has a college degree, they are all on the same playing field. A masters degree is essentially the new bachelors degree.

The government providing financial aid has caused tuition prices to spiral out of control as well, in my opinion.

Who knows how long it will be before a PhD becomes the new masters degree.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *IBM's plant is not what it used to be and will be shuttered sooner than later*.



When I lived in Vermont, it seemed like Howard Dean thought it was his job to chase businesses out of state.



VTKilarney said:


> *The liberals seem to focus on one thing - the unemployment rate.  But that is deceiving.*  In my nearly 17 years in Vermont, I have seen many good jobs eliminated and numerous lousy jobs crop up.



But part-time jobs are skyrocketing, as are fast-food and service jobs!



VTKilarney said:


> *The real growth has been in education and government.*  Vermont's education spending is out of control, and *the unions are doing everything in their power to make sure it stays that way.*



Which is why I say Vermont is just like New Jersey, where I was born and raised.  The above is exactly what happened in NJ.  When I look at Vermont now, it's like I'm looking at how New Jersey was when I was a kid, and now New Jersey is teetering on bankruptcy.  

 It got so bad that New Jersey actually did the unthinkable and elected a Republican as governor, but he's powerless because both chambers of government are Democrat and whatever Christie wants to do to lower taxes or decrease spending doesn't happen.  The Unions are like the mafia here!  Even now, standing on the edge of a financial cliff, we cant right the ship (even a little).  If you want to know the future of Vermont, study New Jersey from 1985 to present.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> The whole point of college was to get a leg up on your peers with higher education. Except that since everyone has a college degree, they are all on the same playing field. A masters degree is essentially the new bachelors degree.
> 
> The government providing financial aid has caused tuition prices to spiral out of control as well, in my opinion.
> 
> Who knows how long it will be before a PhD becomes the new masters degree.




All very well-said.  It's sad. :-(


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## Smellytele (Aug 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> They teach Economics?  Hardly seems it in most places.  Frankly, I've  always thought you could solve a lot of America's woes if children  learned finance/economics from a young age.  Politicians wouldnt be able  to pull the wool over people's eyes nearly as much.



Actually got my son to take an economics class this year as a junior in high school. We'll see how this goes.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 30, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> **sits back and waits for Benedict Gomez to tell me I'm wrong or at the very at least come up with a clever way of not admitting he is wrong**



The ball is snapped, the hold is down, kick is up.............IT's GOOD!!!!!


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## jack97 (Aug 30, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Actually got my son to take an economics class this year as a junior in high school. We'll see how this goes.




Hmmm..... wonder what type of economics they will teach. Marx, Keynes and so on are considered great economic minds.


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## AdironRider (Aug 30, 2014)

Outside of basic supply and demand, high school economics classes are a joke. 

I remember having to take home ec though. IMO they should get rid of the bullshit sewing and needlepoint skills and focus on the real stuff, like balancing a checkbook, credit ratings, etc.


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## Edd (Aug 30, 2014)

Never took Economics in high school which explains a lot about my early years. The typing class really set me up for success, though.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 30, 2014)

My favorite quote as pertaining to education is "Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school" by Albert Einstein. 

Don't remember much from HS other than some of the math classes. And using "format painter" in typing class. That's about it. 8)


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## Not Sure (Aug 30, 2014)

jack97 said:


> Hmmm..... wonder what type of economics they will teach. Marx, Keynes and so on are considered great economic minds.



No Economics needed in the future with a dictatorial federal government ...all problems will be solved by the following.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 2, 2014)

This thread has almost nothing to do with Suicide Six but I must say I am enjoying the back and forth here.And surprise surprise for me is that most of you are making a lot of sense to me.Were doomed!


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## dlague (Sep 3, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> This thread has almost nothing to do with Suicide Six but I must say I am enjoying the back and forth here.And surprise surprise for me is that most of you are making a lot of sense to me.Were doomed!



That made sense to me!


.......


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## Nick (Sep 4, 2014)

This is an excellent thread topica dn something I never thought of before, although I have no resorts to add. you guys have pretty much nailed it.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 4, 2014)

Well, there was still Devil's Head Resort in Wisconsin.  And while it is not naughty per se, I can't help but giggle at Pennsylvania's Tussey Mountain.

There are many naughty cross-country ski area names, not the least of which is Hardwood Valley in Ontario.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 6, 2014)

Whiteface > Check Your Privilege Face

Big Squaw > Big-Is-Beaultiful Native Wimmins Mountain

Suicide Six > Robin Williams Is In Heaven Peak

Sugarbush > SugarObama

Mad River Glen > Schizoaffective Disorder River Glen

Loon Mountain > Social Justice Warrior Mountain


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## Edd (Sep 6, 2014)

Tuna!! Woo hoo!


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