# People skiing on old straight skis



## Rambo (Jan 27, 2010)

I have noticed their are still a number of people skiing on OLD straight skis. Just the fact that the bindings are so very old and "Non-Current" could be a safety issue. A lot of these people ski fairly fast. 

Saw a guy with an old pair of Salomon SX70 rear entry racing boots. I can understand people using old boots they like. The ski shop guys tell me that ski boot liners wear out after 70 to 75 days of skiing. I don't buy that. I had a pair of Nordica boots for 18.5 years and about 370 ski days before the outer shell plastic got hard and brittle and cracked apart one day after skiing when taking them off.


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## 2knees (Jan 27, 2010)

i have people tell me all the time i need to get rid of my salomon sx91 equipes and K2 Comp slalom skis.

whats the big deal?  i like to jersey turn in denim with some old school flair.


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## millerm277 (Jan 27, 2010)

As for bindings, I'd say the same thing goes for them as for boots:

If you leave them in your garage or attic and they go through a million cycles of freezing in the winter, and being 90F in the summer, they probably aren't going to last too long. If your idea of "adjusting bindings", is messing with a screwdriver until your foot fits in them, and you think DIN settings are supposed to be up as far as they can go....the bindings probably aren't going to work well or last long.

If you keep your stuff at room temperature, inspect it, and take care of it, it'll last a long time. As for boot liners wearing out...they tend to get "colder" after that period of time, but don't exactly develop holes instantly or whatever.

Personally, I ski on Nordica NR981 boots from 1990 or 1991, they're the best fitting boots I've ever felt, and cost $5 on ebay to get a spare pair for new rubber heels. Still working great.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2010)

I've bought a lot of equipment in the past 3 years, but had held onto some items for a long time prior to that.

I was skiing my Lange Banshe's from HS from 1994 until 2003.  I skied my Marker M1SC bindings from 1994 until 2006.

I hope all of my current gear last 10+ years.  I only ski about 20-25 days a year, so I think that's a reasonable expectation.  Love my boots, my Pow skis and my bump skis.  Only thing I can see swapping out of my quiver are my 'carving' skis as I really don't care for them much.  They're Rossi B2s.  I bought them in hopes of a 1 ski quiver 3 years ago and while they're capable in all conditions, they do nothing outstandingly well at all.  I purchased 'Bump' skis since and east coast powder skis.  Both are great for their intended purpose, but kinda blow at carving.


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## wa-loaf (Jan 27, 2010)

Having spent some time at Ski Ward lately, they have a large percentage of folks in 80's and even 70s gear on the slopes.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2010)

how are the kids enjoying Ward?  tis where I learned


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## dmc (Jan 27, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> As for bindings, I'd say the same thing goes for them as for boots.



Ski shops are not allowed to work on old bindings..  I brought my old beartraps in and the refused...


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## wa-loaf (Jan 27, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> how are the kids enjoying Ward?  tis where I learned



I think the class size is too big. They spend too much time teaching them to use the handle tow. I've seen hardly any ski instruction in 4 weeks. I think I'm going to go with WA next year. More of a haul, but a better set-up there. Ward really needs a magic carpet.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2010)

I learned on that very same handle tow.  Actually if I recall correctly, the first couple of lessons we didn't even use the tow, just side stepped up the hill a ways.  By the end of the 6 lesson program we were brought to the 'summit'.  I and my parents very much remember my maiden voyage from the summit.  We were all in a row to do big giant S's down the slope in our Pizza wedges.  This was the slope next to the T Bar, which I believe has been replaced....lookers left of the handle tow.  I made the first two S's and then decided to blow off the class and go straight down.  Ended up crashing straight into the barn at the bottom. :lol:


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## millerm277 (Jan 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> Ski shops are not allowed to work on old bindings..  I brought my old beartraps in and the refused...



I know. I meant if you're working on your own bindings. Hmm...gives me an entertaining idea though. Go buy some vintage skis from the the 50s with the cable bindings and such, and a really horrible neon pair of rear entry boots, and take them in to be "setup".


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## mister moose (Jan 27, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Only thing I can see swapping out of my quiver are my 'carving' skis as I really don't care for them much.  They're Rossi B2s.  I bought them in hopes of a 1 ski quiver 3 years ago and while they're capable in all conditions, they do nothing outstandingly well at all.  I purchased 'Bump' skis since and east coast powder skis.  Both are great for their intended purpose, but kinda blow at carving.



I would never call B2's a carving ski.  It has a turning radius of 18m and has no ability to hold on.  My carving ski has a turning radius of 12m, is 121-66-102 and will dig trenches in the snow while giving you amusement park level g-forces.  It's a lot of fun.  Demo something that will really carve, and then lean it over and really ask it to carve.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2010)

2knees said:


> whats the big deal?  i like to jersey turn in denim with some old school flair.




LOL! 

I see a few pairs of straights every weekend. I assume (and we know where that gets us!) it's someone who just doesn't ski that often or maybe just got back into it after a few years off. I do, however, do a double take when I see a pair of Rossi 4S's. I picked a pair of those up off the side of the road and plan to mount them on the wall.......

Oh, and this past Saturday I saw some serious old school randomness. Seeing old skis is one thing...but old snow boards....saw a dude carrying an old Burton Air board that kinda looked like this:


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## KevinF (Jan 28, 2010)

Rambo said:


> The ski shop guys tell me that ski boot liners wear out after 70 to 75 days of skiing. I don't buy that. I had a pair of Nordica boots for 18.5 years and about 370 ski days before the outer shell plastic got hard and brittle and cracked apart one day after skiing when taking them off.



If ski boot liners wore out in 75 days, I know a couple full-time instructors who'd be going through two pairs of boots in a season!


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## WinnChill (Jan 28, 2010)

Yep, I have 20 year old Lange skiis (not the boots) and Tyrolia bindings.  I was inquiring about ski tune up several years ago and mentioned Tyrolia...the girl had never heard of them!  I always seem to miss the ski swap to upgrade so I just keep skiing the old ones.  Plus I don't go as often as I'd like to justify spending big $ for new ones.


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## TheBEast (Jan 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> Ski shops are not allowed to work on old bindings..  I brought my old beartraps in and the refused...



Having worked in a shop for 6+ years in high school and college the binding manufacturers put out a list every year of "current" binding models, ones they will cover in case of malfunction, essentially the ones shops are legally allowed to work on.  Shops risk lawsuits if they work on a binding that the manufacturer deems is no longer safe to ski.  Mind you I think the life-span of a binding is something in the neighborhood of 10 years or so based on this list.  It really comes down to a safety issue.  Yes, older equipment "may" function properly, but if insurance companies won't cover manufacturers for their older equipment, they're not going to let shops work on it......so as much as it sucks to get new bindings with new skis (had this happen to me a year or so ago) when you have other bindings which "appear" perfectly fine, it's much safer to just get something new.  Besides the technology is that much better now as well.  You really are putting yourself at greater risk every time you're out on bindings that are 15+ years old in my opinion.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 28, 2010)

I see a lot of people at Blue on their 200cm straight skis. Often when I'm sharing a lift ride with one of them, they will comment "Wow, the tips of your skis are _so round_"


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## deadheadskier (Jan 28, 2010)

mister moose said:


> I would never call B2's a carving ski.  It has a turning radius of 18m and has no ability to hold on.  My carving ski has a turning radius of 12m, is 121-66-102 and will dig trenches in the snow while giving you amusement park level g-forces.  It's a lot of fun.  Demo something that will really carve, and then lean it over and really ask it to carve.



oh I know, hence the 'quotation' marks.  It is the best ski for carving that I own, but you are right; not a carving ski.

I'm not sure you need something with a 12m turn radius for a carving ski though.  What I'd like to get for a carving ski is a Fischer Progressor 9+, probably in a 175.


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## marcski (Jan 28, 2010)

It's the skier not the skis.   

Boot liners will get worn in..the foam gets thinned out over time which, at least for me, eventually causes pressure points, when I clamp 'em down for something steep or deep.  Mine are going on 6-7 years old at this point...over 100 days...still working well....although, I am starting to feel them now, whereas for the first 6-7 years, I buckled them in the morning and then unbuckled them at the end of the day when taking them.  No need for me to unbuckle on lifts or even at lunch!  I love my Nordica Speedmachines!


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## faceplant (Jan 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> Ski shops are not allowed to work on old bindings..  I brought my old beartraps in and the refused...



just dont turn your back on em....
they might nail your ol boards to the lodge wall
they got a nice collection going from what i saw  ;-)


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## billski (Jan 28, 2010)

WinnChill said:


> Yep, I have 20 year old Lange skiis (not the boots) and Tyrolia bindings.  I was inquiring about ski tune up several years ago and mentioned Tyrolia...the girl had never heard of them!  I always seem to miss the ski swap to upgrade so I just keep skiing the old ones.  Plus I don't go as often as I'd like to justify spending big $ for new ones.



I have been under-impressed with adult gear at ski swaps.  The really interesting gear is gone in the first five minutes, and shops/vendors have taken over the bulk offering stuff that didn't move in their stores.  It's a good place to pickup a set of poles though...

Most people I know skiing on old gear have the same modus operandi: stuff is expensive, they don't go enough to justify it, and they're comfortable with what they've got.   I know a guy who was a ski instructor in Austria, now lives in the states, gets out about once every two years (life got away from him..) and skis on 25 year old boards.


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## HD333 (Jan 28, 2010)

Saw a guy this weekend in the lift line with  at least 210's K2 5500's, red Rear entry Nordicas (with Jeans tucked in and hi name on masking tape on the back) and suprisingly brand new  poles big old puffy blue coat, no hat (never mind a helment), neon yellow gloves.  I was pissed I couldn't get the camera out fast enough.




wa-loaf said:


> I think the class size is too big. They spend too much time teaching them to use the handle tow. I've seen hardly any ski instruction in 4 weeks. I think I'm going to go with WA next year. More of a haul, but a better set-up there. Ward really needs a magic carpet.




Definitly Wa Wa fo rthe kids.  The Polar Kids Camp is great.


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## dmc (Jan 28, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Oh, and this past Saturday I saw some serious old school randomness. Seeing old skis is one thing...but old snow boards....saw a dude carrying an old Burton Air board that kinda looked like this:



Saw a guy on an old Burton Amp6 with Sims bindings.  Offered the guy $50 for it on the spot..  He seemed offended when I told him I wanted it as an antique..


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## HD333 (Jan 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> Saw a guy on an old Burton Amp6 with Sims bindings.  Offered the guy $50 for it on the spot..  He seemed offended when I told him I wanted it as an antique..



Had my old board, K2 Eldorado, with me when I picked up my new board a few years ago.  My wife asked the kid mounting the bindings if he thought anyone would want to buy the old one.  he replied "yeah maybe the hang on their wall"

I would love to get my hands on one of the Burton Cruisers from back in the day.

HD


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 28, 2010)

other issue with old boots is that they wear down from walking and wont 'sit' in the binding properly


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## snoseek (Jan 28, 2010)

My ski boots have probably 350-400 days on them. The heals are reinforced with duct tape and the bottoms are kinda slippery when walking but they somehow still clamp into the bidings with very little play. They rarely leave my car and i just leave them on the passenger side on the floor. Floor heat does a decent drying job. They are on their fourth or fifth season-hoping to get another year out of them.


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## dmc (Jan 28, 2010)

HD333 said:


> Had my old board, K2 Eldorado, with me when I picked up my new board a few years ago.  My wife asked the kid mounting the bindings if he thought anyone would want to buy the old one.  he replied "yeah maybe the hang on their wall"
> 
> I would love to get my hands on one of the Burton Cruisers from back in the day.
> 
> HD



the Red White and Blue Eldo was a great deck!!!


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## HD333 (Jan 28, 2010)

^^^^
That is the one.  It will be mounted on a wall in my house at some point.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> Saw a guy on an old Burton Amp6 with Sims bindings.  Offered the guy $50 for it on the spot..  He seemed offended when I told him I wanted it as an antique..



LOL! You've got more brass than I do. Hats off for tossing out an offer. 

The board I saw had what looked like the orginal Burton bindings wih the torqouis heel.


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## Rambo (Jan 28, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> other issue with old boots is that they wear down from walking and wont 'sit' in the binding properly



"If ski boot liners wore out in 75 days, I know a couple full-time instructors who'd be going through two pairs of boots in a season!" 

Two observations: I think the sales guys from the ski shop that told me that boot liners wear out in 75 days of skiing, were saying that in order to sell more boots.

As far as boot soles and heels wearing down from walking over stones and grates...etc. the 2 ski shops in my area do not and have never sold "cat tracks" which are rubber slip on protective devices to protect the soles when walking in your expensive ski boots. One day I finally got one of the shop employees to admitt that they do not sell cat tracks because they want your soles to wear down so you buy ski boots more often.


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## legalskier (Jan 28, 2010)

Rambo said:


> I think the sales guys from the ski shop that told me that boot liners wear out in 75 days of skiing, were saying that in order to sell more boots.



+1
I've long suspected the industry builds in obsolescence for that reason. I mean really, how many legitimate equipment breakthroughs have occurred over the past few decades? Shaped skis? The invention of snow boards? Everything else has been tinkering IMHO.


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## 2knees (Jan 28, 2010)

HD333 said:


> his name on masking tape on the back.



:lol: i have that one covered.  no idea why but i never removed it after getting my bindings mounted.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 28, 2010)

Rambo said:


> "If ski boot liners wore out in 75 days, I know a couple full-time instructors who'd be going through two pairs of boots in a season!"
> 
> Two observations: I think the sales guys from the ski shop that told me that boot liners wear out in 75 days of skiing, were saying that in order to sell more boots.



Last year I skied in Nordica Supercharger boots.  The amount that the boots changed from day 1, till the end of the season (I skied 83 days, mostly half days) was huge.  There is no way that I could have gotten them to last another season in those liners.  If I had bought new liners I could have been good to go, but bought new boots instead.
My current boots (dalbello blender) I can feel the liners starting to break down.  They are still entirely usable and fit great, and seem to be holding up better than the Nordicas.

I dont understand how the guys who have 300+ days and say they fit just right still.


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## Rambo (Jan 28, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Last year I skied in Nordica Supercharger boots.  The amount that the boots changed from day 1, till the end of the season (I skied 83 days, mostly half days) was huge.  There is no way that I could have gotten them to last another season in those liners.  If I had bought new liners I could have been good to go, but bought new boots instead.
> My current boots (dalbello blender) I can feel the liners starting to break down.  They are still entirely usable and fit great, and seem to be holding up better than the Nordicas.
> 
> I dont understand how the guys who have 300+ days and say they fit just right still.



I'm thinking that you are probably a hard charging expert, and put a lot of stress on your equipment. Those who get 300+ days and still feel their boots still fit fine are probably stuck at the advanced intermeadiate level and just don't generate nowhere the same stress levels on equipment like a hard charging expert. Just my theory.


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## Geoff (Jan 28, 2010)

legalskier said:


> +1
> I've long suspected the industry builds in obsolescence for that reason. I mean really, how many legitimate equipment breakthroughs have occurred over the past few decades? Shaped skis? The invention of snow boards? Everything else has been tinkering IMHO.



Ski boot technology has not changed since the 1970's.   The 1979 Lange Banshee I used to ski on isn't any different from the Head World Cup I ski on now.   

Stock liners are indeed designed to wear out quickly.   I use custom liners which hold up for 300+ days.   I was at the bar with my boot fitter a couple of weeks ago at the ski bum party.   My friend on the other side of me was talking to him about boot fit and needing and adjustment.  I made a comment about getting shot with custom liners were I never had to go back.   My boot fitter replied something like, "Yeah, but you show up every 5 years for boots and then never spend any more money with me."

My mom skis on straight skis and rear entry boots.   She tried shaped skis and hated them.   At age 77, why change?


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## abc (Jan 28, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> other issue with old boots is that they wear down from walking and wont 'sit' in the binding properly


You only need new toe/heel peices. Not new boots. 

There're reasons to NOT hang on to old boots, liner pack out or plastic fatique (mine old boot's shell simply disintegrated bit by bit). But worn out heel piece from walking isn't one of them.


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## jaywbigred (Jan 28, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Last year I skied in Nordica Supercharger boots.  The amount that the boots changed from day 1, till the end of the season (I skied 83 days, mostly half days) was huge.  There is no way that I could have gotten them to last another season in those liners.  If I had bought new liners I could have been good to go, but bought new boots instead.
> My current boots (dalbello blender) I can feel the liners starting to break down.  They are still entirely usable and fit great, and seem to be holding up better than the Nordicas.
> 
> I dont understand how the guys who have 300+ days and say they fit just right still.



I'm at about 65-70 days on my current boots, and I've had them worked on at least 12-18 times during that span. I still feel a lot of pain with them, and I can also feel the liners starting to break down. This past week I started to feel shin bang for the first time. The liners are stock, and are starting to go, and I think the shell is flexing a lot more than it used to, which may be a good thing, being that I bought a fairly stiff boot that allows me to carve the way I want but isn't suited that well to skiing bumps (which I love) and powder (which I found out last week).


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## marcski (Jan 28, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Ski boot technology has not changed since the 1970's.   The 1979 Lange Banshee I used to ski on isn't any different from the Head World Cup I ski on now.



Not so sure I agree.  I think boots have changed along with the ski technology.  I think newer boots are not quite as stiff in forward flexion and tend to be more stiff laterally.


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## bvibert (Jan 28, 2010)

abc said:


> You only need new toe/heel peices. Not new boots.



Maybe true, if your boots have replaceable toe and heel pieces, not all boots do.


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## Euler (Jan 28, 2010)

*What about skis?*

What's the collective wisdom on skis wearing out after a season or few?  Does a recreational skier need a new ski every couple years because the "spring" wears out of a ski?


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## bigbog (Jan 28, 2010)

I did not ski very well back in the 80s(just learning), but some liners were definitely tightly packed with more dense foam back then.  Would like to have my K2 Comp 710s? <--something close to that... back...I bet they were a fun bump ski..lol.


$.01


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## mountainman (Jan 28, 2010)

*Boots?*

I liked the leather lace up boots. Never heard of ACL or MCL injuries back then. The main reason ski'ers are not taught how to fall, which create these types on injuries. Not much for bear trap bindings. Still have a pair of fisher 215"s that i break out once in awhile. Still a good ride. Rossi 3g's 210"s still work. Don't really like the shaped ski's. I still can't believe how short ski's have gotten over the years. Might as will make a big pair of boots that look like ski's. LOL Bootski LOL


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## jaja111 (Jan 28, 2010)

I like to occasionally break out my old pre's (couldn't pass on their $5 pricetag at a garage sale), straight enough to use as a flat edge. I have 3 pairs of shaped skis and two monoskis. Different flavors to keep things shook up I guess. Straight skis take quite a bit more skill to master and are a different sort of challenge. 

But I would have to say the vast majority of people I see on old equipment are not in the same mindset as myself. They struggle with efficient turns, still back seatting... even half wedge flicking, when you see them. I think to myself, my god... the agony... you'd be so much better off and rewarded with modern skis! But then you see someone on a pair of straight 210's ripping perfect parallel turns like Stein Erickson. You can't knock that.


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## Glenn (Jan 28, 2010)

Euler said:


> What's the collective wisdom on skis wearing out after a season or few?  Does a recreational skier need a new ski every couple years because the "spring" wears out of a ski?



I think Skiing magazine had a blurb on that in their buyer's guide this year. IIRC...75-90 days is what they said? I'm sure it depends a lot. If you cruise along...I bet that can be expanded upon.


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## faceplant (Jan 28, 2010)

Euler said:


> What's the collective wisdom on skis wearing out after a season or few?  Does a recreational skier need a new ski every couple years because the "spring" wears out of a ski?




supposedly the camber breaks down....or so they say
then again, my rossi 4s's still got some good camber left in 'em

more likely your edges will go before the camber if you tune your boards alot 
buddy of mine does his after every full day
course, he gets a new set ever year....sometimes 2


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## dmc (Jan 28, 2010)

This thread is making miss my old Rossi 4M mogul skis...


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## snoseek (Jan 28, 2010)

Rambo said:


> I'm thinking that you are probably a hard charging expert, and put a lot of stress on your equipment. Those who get 300+ days and still feel their boots still fit fine are probably stuck at the advanced intermeadiate level and just don't generate nowhere the same stress levels on equipment like a hard charging expert. Just my theory.



I completely disagree with this. If you're a truly stable skier than perhaps your equipment sees less stress.


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## millerm277 (Jan 28, 2010)

bigbog said:


> I did not ski very well back in the 80s(just learning), but some liners were definitely tightly packed with more dense foam back then.



That's what my liners are like, they seem to nearly never wear out, the foam never compacts.


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## mister moose (Jan 28, 2010)

snoseek said:


> I completely disagree with this. If you're a truly stable skier than perhaps your equipment sees less stress.



I disagree with you.  It's all about cycles and amplitude.  Has nothing to do with how stable you are as a skier.  The number of cycles determines the amount of internal wear in the ski, and it will progressivley lose its livelyness.


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## snoseek (Jan 28, 2010)

mister moose said:


> I disagree with you.  It's all about cycles and amplitude.  Has nothing to do with how stable you are as a skier.  The number of cycles determines the amount of internal wear in the ski, and it will progressivley lose its livelyness.



O.K. i guess that makes sense. All I know is I bought my Dalbello at Northern something on the Killington access road about five years ago, have not really taken care of them other than the occasional boot dryer, skied a couple hundred plus days in New England and a couple hundred out here. Are they in good shape? Hell no. Does this really effect performance? Not really. My feet don't hurt in them, there is very little play in the bindings, and they still fit snug. Am I just lucky or low maitenence?


As far as the ski goes I kind of don't care so much about livliness, snap. My older skis now have zero camber and ski soft snow much nicer than they used to. They have just transformed.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 29, 2010)

IMHO people who ski on old school skis are:

more experienced skiers than their shorter ski brethren
don't need a quiver of skis to enjoy a day on the hill
not hung up on what kind of equipment others are using
don't have a picture of their skis in their ski forum signature
don't feel the need to record the amount of vert they ski that day
get them tuned by a private tuner
not going to complain about less than perfect conditions


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## faceplant (Jan 29, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> IMHO people who ski on old school skis are:
> 
> more experienced skiers than their shorter ski brethren
> don't need a quiver of skis to enjoy a day on the hill
> ...



right on brother!
met a guy once who went *back* to straights...said his shapeds felt like driving a Caddy
:-D


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## RootDKJ (Jan 29, 2010)

I think as we all gear up to head out this weekend, we should all try to capture some pics of people on outdated gear, just for fun.


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## HD333 (Jan 29, 2010)

*Funny (to me) old gear quote.*

Before my wife got her new set up last year we were riding a lift with an old timer who looked at her skis and said "the last time I saw skis that old they were hanging over a fireplace in a lodge"  they weren't even that old. 

I just wish she was quick enough to respond with something to the effect of "last time I saw a person as old as you he was in a nursing home"


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## dmc (Jan 29, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I think as we all gear up to head out this weekend, we should all try to capture some pics of people on outdated gear, just for fun.



Probably be easier on Pres Day Weekend.. Lots of old stuff comes out then.. Just smell for mothballs..


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## Glenn (Jan 29, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I think as we all gear up to head out this weekend, we should all try to capture some pics of people on outdated gear, just for fun.



Will I get bonus points if they're wearing a neon fart bag?


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## RootDKJ (Jan 29, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Will I get bonus points if they're wearing a neon fart bag?


Of course :beer:


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## Glenn (Jan 29, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Of course :beer:



Excellent! Hopefully I can get the camera out of my jacket before my hand freezes. Gonna be chilly this weekend!


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## jrmagic (Jan 29, 2010)

I ahve a few guys in my group that still ski long boards. Its not that they dont ski a lot cause they do. They just love them and they are damn good skiers. I've tried to talk them into trying a pair of mine but they never take me up no it.Thankfully they dont wear neon fart bags.


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## jaja111 (Jan 29, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> IMHO people who ski on old school skis are:
> 
> more experienced skiers than their shorter ski brethren
> don't need a quiver of skis to enjoy a day on the hill
> ...



Helllllllll Yes! Add:

-believe that overall, skis are just flat pieces of wood that vary in small degrees regarding how much effort and skill must be shoved into them, and are more over-marketed than pharmaceuticals.
-believes that all skis, straight or shaped, have their own unique personality to be enjoyed.
-get them tuned by themselves.
-believe less than perfect conditions are simply a more difficult puzzle of "Where is a pile of goodness to make a turn amongst danger" needing to be solved.


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## ERJ-145CA (Jan 29, 2010)

I saw a guy earlier this month unlocking his really old, long, straight skis from a Ski Tote.  I thought it was pretty funny.  There was plenty of new nice equipment around, I didn't think anyone was going to take his stuff.


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## Luithien (May 3, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> As for bindings, I'd say the same thing goes for them as for boots:
> 
> If you leave them in your garage or attic and they go through a million cycles of freezing in the winter, and being 90F in the summer, they probably aren't going to last too long. If your idea of "adjusting bindings", is messing with a screwdriver until your foot fits in them, and you think DIN settings are supposed to be up as far as they can go....the bindings probably aren't going to work well or last long.
> 
> ...



Wish that would work for me.../cry. I skied my N981's since new in in 1991. The right one finally gave up the ghost just last Sunday as I was pulling it off after the last run of the season here. Cracked from the back grip plate up towards the cuff about 7 inches. 19 years and too many days to count. Heat molded insoles at the purchase and they never needed anything else. You can guess what brand I am looking at for thier replacements...

R.I.P 981's
Luithien


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## eastcoastpowderhound (May 6, 2010)

wow, there's a lot of nutty stuff being tossed out in this thread!  
ski equipment more over hyped than pharmaceuticals...WHAT?  big pharma probably spends more on lobbyists in DC than the entire ski equipment industry generates in annual revenue.

Boots haven't changed since the 70's?  Really...since everything was a single injected monoblock shell with 5 tiny non micro adjustable steel buckles...no power straps, no canting...  

no real changes in skis, just tweaking...?  its called evolution, if you think skis haven't changed much you either aren't paying attention, haven't skied on much new gear, or just can't tell.  there have been 3 pretty big changes in the last decade and a half...shape skis, waist widths, and more recently, reverse camber/early rise.  

boot liners have also come a long way in the last two decades...for starters, most liners weren't even asymetrical back in the early 80s...they were typically made out of one density of inner liner, a fabric cover, and a plastic or leather upper cuff.  the tongue was the same shape from left to right.  Liners fit much better right off the shelf now, most are made with multiple layers of thermomoldable eva foam around the ankles and midfoot, they're much more anatomically correct, and weigh half as much as the liners of old.  

How do I make a living?  I've been an equipment pimp for the last 22 years...been skiing on it, working on it, and designing it...experiencing all of the changes in materials, shapes, constructions, etc every year.  Sure, there are some things that haven't changed a ton...there are similar materials being used...wood cores, metal edges, the same ski presses are being used...but the final product and its performance and versatility on the hill has changed dramatically.  Sure, a great skier can ski on anything...but all the great skiers I know who have access to new equipment only go back to old straight skis for a laugh.  Standing by your old equipment because you don't think the new stuff is any  better would be like sticking with your trs80 because you think it computes just as well as the laptop your looking at now...or like watching the superbowl on a 19" black and white.  You might as well drive a model T to work...its an internal combustion engine, its got wheels, what else has changed?  Slap some REO Speedwagon in your 8 track and lets bring this shipment to the shores...who needs a CD player...and mp3's...who's that, r2d2's sister? (pretty sweet model t with an 8 track huh!)   

My wife just gave me shit for the length of this post...so, sorry, but I had to read all 7 pages of posts before this...and I haven't posted much all winter as I've spent the last 6 months pimping next years gear...so I've got a lot to say.  You can hear a little bit of what I've said or you can play ostrich and stick your head in the sand.  your call.  :grin:


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## powpig2002 (May 6, 2010)

lets get real. anyone that says old gear is as good as modern is, to put it politely, out in the ozone.   you like working harder, good for you. i held out until 1999, thought shaped was a fad. i've been doing this since 1959. raced, patroled. i'd never go back. but to each his own. thank you.


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## Rambo (May 7, 2010)

I can remember when the K2 VO-Slalom, was State-of the Art. Would not want to ski on them nowdays.


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## Geoff (May 7, 2010)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> Boots haven't changed since the 70's?  Really...since everything was a single injected monoblock shell with 5 tiny non micro adjustable steel buckles...no power straps, no canting...



Jeez.  The  original black plastic Langes from the 1960's had micro adjustable buckles.   My late-1970's Lange Banshee shells are quite similar to the Head World Cup shells I use now.   My Heads have a canting adjustment I don't use since I'm neutral.  Back then, you canted with a shim under the binding and achieved the same effect.   Most skiers wouldn't be able to tell the difference in performance with their power strap undone.   

The plug boots the racers use are a different story.   Recreational boots aren't all that different.


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## Rambo (May 7, 2010)

I take it that, Rear Entry Ski Boots, won't ever be back?


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## eastcoastpowderhound (May 7, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Jeez.  The  original black plastic Langes from the 1960's had micro adjustable buckles.   My late-1970's Lange Banshee shells are quite similar to the Head World Cup shells I use now.   My Heads have a canting adjustment I don't use since I'm neutral.  Back then, you canted with a shim under the binding and achieved the same effect.   Most skiers wouldn't be able to tell the difference in performance with their power strap undone.
> 
> The plug boots the racers use are a different story.   Recreational boots aren't all that different.



Actually the race boots are closer to the boots of past than recreational boots...nearly all are still a single injection with very few bells and whistles beyond the buckles.  But they've still changed the lasts quite a bit and the overall shape of the shells have been refined so there is less plastic in the areas it isn't needed and more where it is needed to transmit energy to the ski...thinner shell walls around the midfoot, but thicker spines and soles.  The blend of plastics is constantly being adjusted too.  Recreational boots are very different from years past; most use 2 if not 3 different durometers of plastic, stiff in the spine and sole, softest over the instep, as a result they're much easier to get into, transmit energy more efficiently and are quite a bit lighter.   liner construction has constantly improved, buckles are not only micro,  but the upper buckles are usually macro adjustable, etc.  womens boots are actually different from mens boots now instead of just being white vs red, black, or grey.

a cant shim under the binding has a very different effect than the canting/upper cuff adjustment on the shell...the cuff adjustment helps to align the upper cuff with the lower leg shaft, has no impact on the foot itself and doesn't really impact knee alignment.  The cant shim under the binding changes the angle of the foot relative to the ski, has nothing to do with the fit of the upper cuff to the lower leg, and has a direct impact on knee alignment.  Completely different results.  

As for the power strap...anyone I ever fit a boot for could tell the difference...if not in performance, certainly in fit and comfort.  

or, maybe my 1998 outback with 140K miles is just as good as a 2010 outback...they've both got 4 wheels, both have all wheel drive...both have internal combustion engines...both roll down the roads under their own power, they just look a little different on the outside right?


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## deadheadskier (May 7, 2010)

east coast,  you should join our conversation on manual transmissions.  Many of still prefer the old 3 peddle.  Some folks consider it outdated technology.  

I definitely feel that new equipment makes a world of difference over old.  I could ski on straight skis, but would be quite the gaper for the first several runs.


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## bvibert (May 7, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> east coast,  you should join our conversation on manual transmissions.  Many of still prefer the old 3 peddle.  Some folks consider it outdated technology.



My clutch pedal is reversed camber.


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## deadheadskier (May 7, 2010)

I believe my slush box is cap design with a foam core.


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## SIKSKIER (May 7, 2010)

You mean I should give up using my Marker Rotomats?


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## billski (May 7, 2010)

SIKSKIER said:


> You mean I should give up using my Marker Rotomats?



I was pretty bummed when they were taken off the insurance company's equipment list.  They were the bindings I'd always wanted and I thought they were great.  They looked the part of a pretty mean piece of gear too.   Sad to let them go.


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## 4aprice (May 7, 2010)

I found it pretty interesting this past season that just after the big storm (2/24ish?) I saw so many pairs of old straight skis in the lift lines at Camelback.  It was as if people saw the snow and ran to the closet and pulled them out.  I'll bet some of those people hadn't been on skis in 10 years.


Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## riverc0il (May 8, 2010)

legalskier said:


> +1
> I've long suspected the industry builds in obsolescence for that reason. I mean really, how many legitimate equipment breakthroughs have occurred over the past few decades? Shaped skis? The invention of snow boards? Everything else has been tinkering IMHO.


This does not gel with a competitive environment as that would be collusion and illegal. Besides, it would just take one rouge company to increase their rate of innovation to jump ahead of other companies, so this type of collusion is extremely unlikely as it would provide other companies a huge advantage for not withholding innovation.

Comparing skis now to just ten years ago to the first shaped skis that hit the market, I would not call the development just tinkering. These types of discussions always bring about at least one comment of "its not the skier, its the skis" and I say bullshit. You couldn't pay me to go backward on equipment. I would have to relearn a different technique to ski straight skis and it wouldn't be nearly as fun as ripping a 20m radius board mid-90s underfoot and 130 at the tip.

As for boots, you can replace the liners and those do pack out by their very nature. Unless you can switch out toe and heel blocks, those are the parts of the boot I would be most concerned about as those are your connection to the ski and a safety issue. I changed my boots when I thought the toe and heel were getting a bit too rounded for my liking. Everyone's boots will wear differently depending how much wear you put on those parts of the boots.

The most straight skis I have seen in a day was this season at Stowe, of all places. Folks can pay for the most expensive resort in the east but can't pay to upgrade their equipment. It was a startling sight to behold. But for someone that only take one or two big ski vacations a year, I can see why they might want to maximize the return on their investment. Though for any one beyond doing a wedge turn, the performance increase has to be worth the price of upgrading to at least a used ski at a ski swap on the cheap.


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## marcski (May 8, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> These types of discussions always bring about at least one comment of "its not the skier, its the skis" and I say bullshit.



You got it backward, Steve, "it's the skier not the skis."


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## riverc0il (May 8, 2010)

marcski said:


> You got it backward, Steve, "it's the skier not the skis."


Was thinking about my thought instead of about your broaching the usual quote.


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## jack97 (May 8, 2010)

legalskier said:


> +1
> I've long suspected the industry builds in obsolescence for that reason. I mean really, how many legitimate equipment breakthroughs have occurred over the past few decades? Shaped skis? The invention of snow boards? Everything else has been tinkering IMHO.





riverc0il said:


> This does not gel with a competitive environment as that would be collusion and illegal. Besides, it would just take one rouge company to increase their rate of innovation to jump ahead of other companies, so this type of collusion is extremely unlikely as it would provide other companies a huge advantage for not withholding innovation.



IMO, there's a big difference between collusion and marketing equipment for obsolescence. Over the last 5-6 years, K2 had the axis series and then went to the apache series. Volkl did the same from the G3 to the AC series. And yes, the skis in the new series did change in dimension and prolly flex. It seemed every company had a skicross type series. Would not surprise me if this was done to spark interest to skiing something new while still staying with the same manufacture, basically get people to buy out of the curiosity factor or the want of tryng something new. 

This type of marketing is no different than what the car industry has been doing.


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## campgottagopee (May 8, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> These types of discussions always bring about at least one comment of "its not the skier, its the skis" and I say bullshit. You couldn't pay me to go backward on equipment. I would have to relearn a different technique to ski straight skis and it wouldn't be nearly as fun as ripping a 20m radius board mid-90s underfoot and 130 at the tip.



I agree with you sbout going backward on equipment, but how is it not the ski???? I say the ski is a major part of the "quality" of turns we see today while skiing. We wouldn't be seeing that itermediate skier throwing down carved turns if it wasn's for the "modern day" ski. So how is it not the ski????


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## dbking (May 8, 2010)

This past season I took out an old pair of 223cm downhills. It was a beautiful sunny day with great groomed conditions. Really, I was just trying to look cool and show off my old skis. But as I started skiing them, I started to have fun. They were tougher to ski than my new school stuff but not impossible. They made me ski correctly. I had to concentrate on getting my weight entirely on the downhill ski. With my new stuff I can get away with my weight on any ski and fake a ton of bad turns. I think going " Old School" would be good for someone who wanted to " Tune Up " their sking. They would be tough to learn on. 
Yeah, the old straight skis will keep you honest.


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## campgottagopee (May 8, 2010)

dbking said:


> This past season I took out an old pair of 223cm downhills. It was a beautiful sunny day with great groomed conditions. Really, I was just trying to look cool and show off my old skis. But as I started skiing them, I started to have fun. They were tougher to ski than my new school stuff but not impossible. They made me ski correctly. I had to concentrate on getting my weight entirely on the downhill ski. With my new stuff I can get away with my weight on any ski and fake a ton of bad turns. I think going " Old School" would be good for someone who wanted to " Tune Up " their sking. They would be tough to learn on.
> Yeah, the old straight skis will keep you honest.



That's what I'm talking about---no cheating, NONE!!! The art of weighting the the front, middle, and back of the ski thru a turn is gone. It's all about rolling them on edge and riding now, which, imo, is waaaaaaay easier.


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## riverc0il (May 8, 2010)

jack97 said:


> IMO, there's a big difference between collusion and marketing equipment for obsolescence. Over the last 5-6 years, K2 had the axis series and then went to the apache series. Volkl did the same from the G3 to the AC series.


Yea, there is a difference. But not if all companies making a particular good plan to postpone innovation for an agreed upon time frame which my response was geared towards. Individual companies can plan obsolesence of products but if the industry joined forces to limit innovation to increase sales, I think a case could be made for that not being appropriate.


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## riverc0il (May 8, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> I agree with you sbout going backward on equipment, but how is it not the ski???? I say the ski is a major part of the "quality" of turns we see today while skiing. We wouldn't be seeing that itermediate skier throwing down carved turns if it wasn's for the "modern day" ski. So how is it not the ski????


I got the quote backwards. My post was to say the "its not the ski, its the skier" quote is ridiculous. Skis help enormously and more people can ski at a higher level because of them and those at the highest level can do a limited number of things that couldn't be done before and can do everything else at a higher consistency level. For what I would guess is over 90% of skiers, the skis make a HUGE difference.


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## campgottagopee (May 11, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I got the quote backwards. My post was to say the "its not the ski, its the skier" quote is ridiculous. Skis help enormously and more people can ski at a higher level because of them and those at the highest level can do a limited number of things that couldn't be done before and can do everything else at a higher consistency level. For what I would guess is over 90% of skiers, the skis make a HUGE difference.



Gotcha.


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## tarponhead (May 12, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> For what I would guess is over 90% of skiers, the skis make a HUGE difference.




That would be me. When I left the sport almost two decades ago I could not turn for squat. When I returned to skiing again last year my ability to turn was like night and day.


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## Nick (Dec 4, 2011)

Rambo said:


> I have noticed their are still a number of people skiing on OLD straight skis. Just the fact that the bindings are so very old and "Non-Current" could be a safety issue. A lot of these people ski fairly fast.
> 
> Saw a guy with an old pair of Salomon SX70 rear entry racing boots. I can understand people using old boots they like. The ski shop guys tell me that ski boot liners wear out after 70 to 75 days of skiing. I don't buy that. I had a pair of Nordica boots for 18.5 years and about 370 ski days before the outer shell plastic got hard and brittle and cracked apart one day after skiing when taking them off.



is the issue the bindings then? My dad used everything.. forever. We upgrade equip. a lot more now than people did even 10 years ago. My dad has some Kneissl skis that he used for literally  > 20 years. It was only when the shaped skis started coming out in the mid 90's that he finally upgraded from that pair, that i think he had bought in the early 70's.


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## MarkC (Dec 4, 2011)

Nick said:


> is the issue the bindings then? My dad used everything.. forever. We upgrade equip. a lot more now than people did even 10 years ago. My dad has some Kneissl skis that he used for literally  > 20 years. It was only when the shaped skis started coming out in the mid 90's that he finally upgraded from that pair, that i think he had bought in the early 70's.



It has everything to do with the bindings.  Each year a shop is sent a list of all accept bindings to adjust (providing the tech is certified by each individual manufacture).  If the binding is not on the list it is considered obsolete and should not be used. 
here is a list of bindings from 09/10/


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 4, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I think *Skiing magazine had a blurb on that in their buyer's guide this year. IIRC...75-90 days is what they said?* I'm sure it depends a lot. If you cruise along...I bet that can be expanded upon.



If there is one source on the entire planet that I would NOT trust to tell me how many days you can get out of a pair of skis or boots, it would be a skiing magazine, whose primary source of topline comes from advertiser revenue. 

 Hell, subscription revenue has dropped so dramatically that they "give" the subscriptions away now and survive on advert revenue. 

 This also goes for golf magazines that tell you you need to change your $395 driver every two minutes, and that "water balls" wont perform as well because of the impact of the pond/lake (which may be true, but I still havent seen a scientific study on that conducted with an Iron Byron, which would be extremely simple to do, which leads me to believe that h2o does not significantly impair a golf ball).



MarkC said:


> *It has everything to do with the bindings.  Each year a shop is sent a list of all accept bindings to adjust.  If the binding is not on the list it is considered obsolete and should not be used*.



This too, is a relatively new development in the equipment world, and I imagine there's more like 50% truth to it, and 50% "the quest for revenue" to it, as opposed to 100% truth.  FWIW, I have a pair of Salomon X-Screams from 1999 that I still use.  They're 68 underfoot, which I guess would be considered a race ski now, and the bindings still work just fine, going on 12 years strong.  Anomaly?  Perhaps, but I doubt it.


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## Abubob (Dec 4, 2011)

MarkC said:


> It has everything to do with the bindings.  Each year a shop is sent a list of all accept bindings to adjust (providing the tech is certified by each individual manufacture).  If the binding is not on the list it is considered obsolete and should not be used.
> here is a list of bindings from 09/10/





BenedictGomez said:


> This too, is a relatively new development in the equipment world, and I imagine there's more like 50% truth to it, and 50% "the quest for revenue" to it, as opposed to 100% truth.  FWIW, I have a pair of Salomon X-Screams from 1999 that I still use.  They're 68 underfoot, which I guess would be considered a race ski now, and the bindings still work just fine, going on 12 years strong.  Anomaly?  Perhaps, but I doubt it.



Seems to me the rule of thumb for bindings is 10-15 years. Which A. is NOT new (been around as long as I can remember) and B. is also bogus because its not gauged on actual use. These rules and lists are for technicians that can't tell a fatigued binding from another and to reduce liability in a sue happy society.

Also skis can get as fatigued as bindings and therefore lose their camber and torsional stiffness.


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## thinnmann (Dec 4, 2011)

I like taking photos of people skiing old skis....

MLK weekend really brings them out -

Jan 21, 2008 at Belleayre:











They usually have old boots, jackets, and headgear too:





But still, more recent photos -

MLK weekend Jan 21, 2010 at Belleayre:





January 31, 2009 at Belleayre:





Feb 17, 2008 at Belleayre:





Feb 16, 2008 at Belleayre:


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## billski (Dec 4, 2011)

Something tells me these skis only come out one trip per year..  What I really want to see are the boots!


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## PomfretPlunge (Dec 4, 2011)

Don't laff!

I just bought a pair of K2 Extreme 195s to ski bumps on    You know, black on top, with neon bases just like the tops of those ^^^    Guy sold 'em to me for 40 bucks.  Brand new <well, he did ski one day on 'em in 1998>.

Can't wait to go freestylin'

Twisters & Volkl Wall Moguls are all fine, but they are too short by 10cm!

Plunge


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## Nick (Sep 18, 2012)

Bump!


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## Highway Star (Sep 18, 2012)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> or, maybe my 1998 outback with 140K miles is just as good as a 2010 outback...they've both got 4 wheels, both have all wheel drive...both have internal combustion engines...both roll down the roads under their own power, they just look a little different on the outside right?



Actually, you'd be shocked to find out just how similar they mechanically.  Subarus have all been pretty much the same car from 1990 to today.


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