# VAIL SUCKS



## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

A place to talk about the ways that vail sucks.

I will start:

Vail’s epic waiting room now indicates an opening day of December 11 for wildcat, with opening days further into December for the other three mountains owned in NH. This despite areas as far south as the Carolinas operating since November. In addition to all three of their areas in Vermont operating since November. The Epic Waiting Room even indicates Hunter will reopen any day after opening in November.

I would like to assume the opening day for wildcat is an error but you have no way to confirm. They still have the audacity to claim the ‘longest season in NH’ on their website, a website that lists November 13 as opening day. I would call their customer service but previous attempts have resulted in getting hung up on, after waiting an hour to talk to someone. Rather than communicate, they expect me to schedule my day around their Epic Waiting room hoping their website is in error. A reasonable hope considering past experience.

I still cannot confirm a pass for my four year old. There is no method to order or purchase a child pass on their website, I have called multiple times with a variety of answers and still no conclusion. One told me I could only pick up a pass at Sunapee, another that I had to wait in line for a day pass everytime we visit, another to get a season pass from each mountain in person.

While you may be happy they opened your mountain when able, or gave you a hoodsie cup on your birthday, keep on an eye on what they are doing in New Hampshire. Remember the faceless corporate monolith can do the same to you. They can divert your dollars elsewhere and destroy your decades old local culture, all the while offering zero communication.

I cannot even imagine working for them, I feel for the long term employees that sacrifice to keep our local mountains running.

The sooner Vail leaves eastern skiing the better off all skiers, their employees and ski towns will be.


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

Is it too late to back out? It is likely to be a tough year for Black Mountain unless this turns out to be a good snow year and reservations consistently fill up on weekends/holidays at Attitash and Wildcat. Maybe this is the year to support local when they could very well need it most.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

@BenedictGomez here's your thread and give us you infinite wisdom on how Vail will collapse and the reign of terror will be over 

I skied Mount Snow on the fist powder day of last year, late November.  The mountain was 95% skiable.  On the North Face they were only running Challenger and lines were over 20 minutes long....people started a "Vail Sucks" chant it was hilarious.  They also heckled anyone who mis-loaded.  Fun atmosphere.


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## urungus (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Is it too late to back out? It is likely to be a tough year for Black Mountain unless this turns out to be a good snow year and reservations consistently fill up on weekends/holidays at Attitash and Wildcat. Maybe this is the year to support local when they could very well need it most.



I plan on backing out.  If you haven’t skiied yet and there is at least one day at any resort that is “sold out” for priority reservations, you can request a refund by Dec 7.

Also if you are in a state like Massachusetts that requires quarantining when returning home, you should also be able to request a “Personal Event” refund:



> Refund Eligibility. You may be eligible for a “Personal Event Refund” if you are prevented from using your Pass during the Core Season due to a “Qualifying Personal Event”.
> 
> A Qualifying Personal Event is one or more of the following:
> Stay-at Home Order. You are unable to use your Pass during the Core Season because the municipality, county, state, province, or country in which your Permanent Residence is located is subject to a “quarantine,” “stay-at-home,” “shelter-in-place” or other comparable mandatory governmental order lasting thirty (30) or more consecutive days, at least seven (7) days of which are during the Core Season. Your “Permanent Residence” refers to your fixed, permanent and principal home for legal and tax purposes.


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

I'm not one to tell other people what to do with their money, but backing out could be alternative worth considering. As much as they've half assed NH, they've at least offered an escape hatch for those that want to take it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2020)

I doubt that Vail is leaving anytime soon.....


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

I didn't realize quarantine is included in the "Personal Event" list.

But it isn't too clear whether that's quarantine of the home state, or whether it also applies to crossing state border.


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## Nick (Dec 2, 2020)

Speaking of NC, here's shot from my camera in NC this morning


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## 2Planker (Dec 2, 2020)

Read it
 17 years later and MORE TRUE than ever before......


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> I didn't realize quarantine is included in the "Personal Event" list.
> 
> But it isn't too clear whether that's quarantine of the home state, or crossing state border.


Yea...I don't think "quarantine after traveling out of state" is what they intended to be covered there. I'm not a lawyer and not about to carefully read or interpret the legalese, but I'd just be careful to anyone that thinks this scenario is covered under that. I'd be more likely to say it is not covered. Vail will argue that you're allowed to leave your home state in order to get to the ski area and it isn't their problem about what you have to do when you get back.


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2020)

Just a little fucking communication on their intentions with each resorts opening plan. They should all be opening up within the next couple weeks and Wildcat needs to happen Asap like monday. I mean I think they are blowing snow? I dont know there's one webcam at the base. This is what happens when you run marketing out of Broomfield.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

No doubt about it Vail seems to be lacking effort in NH and I've heard similar stories from several Epic pass holders regarding poor customer service


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Just a little fucking communication on their intentions with each resorts opening plan. They should all be opening up within the next couple weeks and Wildcat needs to happen Asap like monday. I mean I think they are blowing snow? I dont know there's one webcam at the base. This is what happens when you run marketing out of Broomfield.



They have the most atrocious conditions reporting in the business.  

How difficult is it to update your website each day with a one paragraph communication of what trails and when snowmaking and grooming will be occurring on


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> They have the most atrocious conditions reporting in the business.
> 
> How difficult is it to update your website each day with a one paragraph communication of what trails and when snowmaking and grooming will be occurring on


As skiers this winter they expect us to plan ahead but cant even blast out an email or facebook or god forbid a snow report. They would be complete silence if it wasnt for them trying to sell stuff like passes and vacations.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

snoseek said:


> As skiers this winter they expect us to plan ahead but cant even blast out an email or facebook or god forbid a snow report. They would be complete silence if it wasnt for them trying to sell stuff like passes and vacations.


There's always the options of not buying a pass in the first place.

Too many people bought based on hope rather than reality. There's the difference between IKON and EPIC. With IKON, the decision to defer is up to the skier. With EPIC, it's up to Vail under some complex rules. I know a few people who chose IKON over EPIC for that reason alone. 

Granted, it's much harder for the northeast skiers. Vail owns more mountains than Alterra. And many of those mountains are kind of "corner the market" type of mountain too.

I bought EPIC. But I have a much lower expectation than other years. Also, I "downgraded" my pass to limit my lose if the season turns out to be a total clusterf*


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2020)

Dont know if this has been posted, but I heard from a reliable source that the entire 2nd floor of Wildcat’s lodge will be the restaurant this season, which I’m glad to hear. Right now, being indoors at a base lodge doesn’t sound appealing but I’ll probably give in at some point.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2020)

They've already neutered a pretty popular night/club program here at the Southcentral PA resorts that was a huge profit center prior to these resorts being sold to peak and ultimately vail.  The corporate bozos think eveyone wants to ski out west on their super cheap epic pass.  They couldn't be more wrong.  Many people want to ski cheaply at night in Pennsylvania.   Yes its not the greatest, but people do like it. 

2 of the 3 local mountains won't be open at night Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday  and who knows what else they have up their sleeve.  I had heard something last year about not blowing snow during operations.  That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  We get limited cold here in Southcentral PA and they need to make snow whenever said cold is around, even if that means while slopes are open and people are skiing.  Snowmaking 24-hours a day when you have the temps isn't an option its a requirement..   Don't give me some cooperate safety bullshit.

they literally have no idea how to morph their corporate mega resort operations into the Eastern Skiing realm.  its completely different and its going to fuck them in the end.  Along with likely lots of other things, but not knowing your market or *not caring to know your market is never a good look*.   The later is just poor business operations in the all might name of the bottom line.

I have no choice and I have to be a passholder.  my local place is 4 miles from where I type this.  I honestly fear that they've already damaged it beyond saving and some day they'll just close it...


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## 2Planker (Dec 2, 2020)

Ran into Wildcat GM (JK) this morning.
Sadly even he does NOT know when they will be "Allowed to Open" were his exact words.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2020)

wow... that's weird.


Hey lets hold off because we don't want to make money...


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> There's always the options of not buying a pass in the first place.
> 
> Too many people bought based on hope rather than reality. There's the difference between IKON and EPIC. With IKON, the decision to defer is up to the skier. With EPIC, it's up to Vail under some complex rules. I know a few people who chose IKON over EPIC for that reason alone.
> 
> ...


My expectations are in check. I even bought an alternative pass to go along with if it gets too weird. Weather has been shitty and they want to spread out on open...I get it. Just would like some communication. As a former employee for them this is a recurring issue all around.


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

Guessing this is going to be the next 100,000 post thread.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

as an epic pass holder, love vail resorts inc, improved skiing for me, I can only hope more epic pass holders switch over to ikon, so I can have even shorter lift lines and more space on the trails.


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## FBGM (Dec 2, 2020)

Worked upper management 1 year under Vail. That was enough. Financially got kicked in the dick. Hours worked, got kicked in the dick. Thanks given was 0.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Worked upper management 1 year under Vail. That was enough. Financially got kicked in the dick. Hours worked, got kicked in the dick. Thanks given was 0.


Everybody in upper management in every industry works a ton, goes with the territor, suck it up buttercup, ever here of Hess, management said it stood for holidays, evenings, Saturdays and. Sunday’s, feel bad for you, only guy in America who  ever work long hours.


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## FBGM (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Everybody in upper management in every industry works a ton, goes with the territor, suck it up buttercup, ever here of Hess, management said it stood for holidays, evenings, Saturdays and. Sunday’s, feel bad for you, only guy in America who  ever work long hours.


I currently work in upper management, not at a ski area, never go over 40 hours, usually leave early Fridays, holidays and weekends off.

Vail sucks, working for Vail sucks. This is a Vail sucks thread. Sounds like your job also sucks. Buy a lifty a beer Karen,


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> I currently work in upper management, not at a ski area, never go over 40 hours, usually leave early Fridays, holidays and weekends off.
> 
> Vail sucks, working for Vail sucks. This is a Vail sucks thread. Sounds like your job also sucks. Buy a lifty a beer Karen,


Can confirm. Worked mgmt for them and it completely sucked. I was pressured into it after just working a low responsibility job several winters and actually showing up semi sober.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> I currently work in upper management, not at a ski area, never go over 40 hours, usually leave early Fridays, holidays and weekends off.


Money is better too...


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Can confirm. Worked mgmt for them and it completely sucked. I was pressured into it after just working a low responsibility job several winters and actually showing up semi sober.


“Semi”? Nice!


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Ran into Wildcat GM (JK) this morning.
> Sadly even he does NOT know when they will be "Allowed to Open" were his exact words.


This is my great concern, that some bureaucrat who has probably never skied new england, clustered their eastern properties into groups and will not open one until all mountains in the group are ready to open. If I recollect they opened all VT and Hunter on the same day. It could be weeks until Crotched is ready to open.  It is similar to a restaurant making people wait while there are open tables; some diploma mill MBA decided it was better for customers to blame the weather than the reservation system. 

There is also a lack of competition in NH. There are no unlimited IKON mountains for the Boston north crowd, Vail has the megapass crowd cornered. Someone mentioned Black, I will surely be there on a few weekends but Black doesnt solve the problem. SR and Cannon solve the problem but when you have already devoted five figures to housing and kids programs you are stuck.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

thebigo said:


> when you have already devoted five figures to housing and kids programs you are stuck.


Till the kids grow up, that is.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 2, 2020)

It's Wednesday at 4pm . . . sitting at my computer to see how many people are in front of me in the week-of Vail reservation line.  Only 25,000 today!


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Till the kids grow up, that is.


No, until next year. The valley is a lesser drive with more to do and superior terrain to SR but this shit is not worth it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2020)

Everyone loves "corporate" resorts for their initial capital improvements, access to multiple resorts, and relatively cheap season pass products.  People hate them for centralized management, bottom-line decisionmaking, and homogenous culture.  I've seen this movie before.


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> It's Wednesday at 4pm . . . sitting at my computer to see how many people are in front of me in the week-of Vail reservation line.  Only 25,000 today!


I tried the system for the first time today. I reserved Dec 16th and 17th (Wednesday and Thursday), which took about a minute. Are these weekend dates you’re going for? I haven’t read the other Vail reservation thread because I didn’t want to get depressed.


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

And to add insult to injury, NWS is now calling for heavy snow this weekend in the notch with the EURO laying down feet.

Edit to add image, not going to happen verbatim but I got nothing else to do.


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I've seen this movie before.


Probably why BG sees Vail ending in financial ruin.


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## Funky_Catskills (Dec 2, 2020)

Vail's working out OK for me..  No issues.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

To be fair....Alterra delayed openings at- Steamboat, Tremblant, Solitude, Sugarbush, and Stratton.

Vail makes improvements at their properties at least.  Okemo was supposed to get a shiny new 6 pack on Timberline this year.  They dumped huuuuuge money into Park City/Canyons.  Also spent even huuuuuugerrrrrr money at Whistler Blackomb putting in a new gondola that's well over 10,000 feet long. 

I'm not trying to defend Vail, they DO SUCK and it's time for them to go.  But like ASC, in the heyday there were new lifts and cheap passes.  But VR and ASC made several major major projects happen that couldn't happen without massive amounts of $$$.


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2020)

ss20 said:


> To be fair....Alterra delayed openings at- Steamboat, Tremblant, Solitude, Sugarbush, and Stratton.
> 
> Vail makes improvements at their properties at least.  Okemo was supposed to get a shiny new 6 pack on Timberline this year.  They dumped huuuuuge money into Park City/Canyons.  Also spent even huuuuuugerrrrrr money at Whistler Blackomb putting in a new gondola that's well over 10,000 feet long.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend Vail, they DO SUCK and it's time for them to go.  But like ASC, in the heyday there were new lifts and cheap passes.


Verdict is out if they put anything into any of their NH properties or any of their NE properties. "they're feeder hills for our Western mountains, they don't need anything"


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Verdict is out if they put anything into any of their NH properties or any of their NE properties. "they're feeder hills for our Western mountains, they don't need anything"



Attitash is due for some love but it was as well during Peaks and they didn't do anything.  Crotched and Wildcat I don't see any needs terribly pressing.  A base lodge at Crotched perhaps but that's on a wish list.


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## RichT (Dec 2, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> It's Wednesday at 4pm . . . sitting at my computer to see how many people are in front of me in the week-of Vail reservation line.  Only 25,000 today!


Really? I just tried could of made the next 7 days reservations in two minutes. it's Wednesday at 5:50 EST.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

RichT said:


> Really? I just tried could of made the next 7 days reservations in two minutes. it's Wednesday at 5:50 EST.


Isn't the reservation open at 3pm? Or was it 2pm? 

So there's a bit of a rush right around that time?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

Vail really hasn't invested shit I'm New England thus far.  

What have they done?

Put a parking lot in at Stowe is about it.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Attitash is due for some love but it was as well during Peaks and they didn't do anything.  Crotched and Wildcat I don't see any needs terribly pressing.  A base lodge at Crotched perhaps but that's on a wish list.


Wildcat needs another major investment in snowmaking

Crotched doesn't need a new lodge.  While it's about the ugliest base lodge in New England, it's also meets the demands of the traffic there very well.  It's very well laid out, just ugly.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail really hasn't invested shit I'm New England thus far.
> 
> What have they done?
> 
> Put a parking lot in at Stowe is about it.



At Okemo they were going to replace the Jackson Gore Quad with a HSS and move the quad to replace Timberline last year til the 'rona hit.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail really hasn't invested shit I'm New England thus far.
> 
> What have they done?
> 
> Put a parking lot in at Stowe is about it.


They did some restaurant  remodeling at okemo and were about to do major stuff at okemo as well, due to COVID 19; push all plans back 5 years, assuming vail survives this, worried a lot places will go belly up, tough times.


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## FBGM (Dec 2, 2020)

If any new lodge goes in on the east it will be the same as one out west. They copy the same blueprint for many of their new lodges.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Wildcat needs another major investment in snowmaking
> 
> Crotched doesn't need a new lodge.  While it's about the ugliest base lodge in New England, it's also meets the demands of the traffic there very well.  It's very well laid out, just ugly.


Attitash seems to have an unfinished feel to it, that’s just me,  when they bought their urban areas in the Midwest they spent millions at each place to bring it up their standards, over time I think they will upgrade a lot of the smaller places with new lifts,lodges etc.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail really hasn't invested shit I'm New England thus far.
> 
> What have they done?
> 
> Put a parking lot in at Stowe is about it.


To be fair, most of their northeast properties weren't even bought until last fall, they had one winter to get their feet under them and had plans to invest in capital projects until the pandemic hit.  I dislike vail as much as the next guy but getting on them for not investing money seems a bit unfair considering the circumstances


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Verdict is out if they put anything into any of their NH properties or any of their NE properties. "they're feeder hills for our Western mountains, they don't need anything"


Give vail time, they have a lot of resorts to upgrade and COVID 19 set them back five years, December 10 when vail does an earnings report, they usually announce next years capital spending plans,  do  They just redo okemo, Breckenridge, keystone projects or add to it?


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> If any new lodge goes in on the east it will be the same as one out west. They copy the same blueprint for many of their new lodges.


My guess Mt snow gets a new base lodge at some point, okemo was going to get a remodeled one with addition, wonder what happens to that., I like the old base lodge at Mt snow, but all the Mt snow employees say it doesn’t work with the amount of skiers they get.


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## drjeff (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Isn't the reservation open at 3pm? Or was it 2pm?
> 
> So there's a bit of a rush right around that time?


The virtual "waiting room" opens at 3PM EST (1PM MST) and the actual reservation room opens at 4PM EST (2PM MST)


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> To be fair, most of their northeast properties weren't even bought until last fall, they had one winter to get their feet under them and had plans to invest in capital projects until the pandemic hit.  I dislike vail as much as the next guy but getting on them for not investing money seems a bit unfair considering the circumstances


Well I think last year was what? Year three for Stowe?  Hadn't really announced anything big planned there.  They definitely need a lift upgrade on the Forerunner side.

They did announce the Okemo lift upgrades.  

As a NH skier, my greatest interests are:

1. New HSQ Summit chair at Attitash
2. Improved snowmaking at Wildcat.  Air/pumping capacity is still inadequate for early season terrain expansion.  
3. Sunapee west bowl expansion

I recognize it will be several years because of Covid before anything major happens.  Really surprising their stock is still doing well all things considered


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

I


icecoast1 said:


> To be fair, most of their northeast properties weren't even bought until last fall, they had one winter to get their feet under them and had plans to invest in capital projects until the pandemic hit.  I dislike vail as much as the next guy but getting on them for not investing money seems a bit unfair considering the circumstances


 like vail, like mr. Katz, not sure why the complaints, like alterra also, like the Indy pass, like where skiing is headed, people are so negative, guess people aren’t happen unless they can complain about something, does any one really what to go back to a 2k season pass that’s only good at one mountain, I am so glad vail changed skiing.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

T


deadheadskier said:


> Well I think last year was what? Year three for Stowe?  Hadn't really announced anything big planned there.  They definitely need a lift upgrade on the Forerunner side.
> 
> They did announce the Okemo lift upgrades.
> 
> ...


The market looks ahead not where you are or have been, the market sees growth ahead For vail.   I would like new spending at attitash and wildcat also, does wildcat have water issues?  Do you think vail will expand ski acreage at attitash?  The west bowl expansion at Sunapee is needed, wonder if that gets delayed due to  gm bartels leaving Sunapee for Mt snow?


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## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> I
> 
> like vail, like mr. Katz, not sure why the complaints, like alterra also, like the Indy pass, like where skiing is headed, people are so negative, guess people aren’t happen unless they can complain about something, does any one really what to go back to a 2k season pass that’s only good at one mountain, I am so glad vail changed skiing.



My season pass price doubled when peak passes disappeared.  It is true that now I would have access to many more areas if I buy an epic pass, but I have no plans on ever going to any of vails properties out west


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> My season pass price doubled when peak passes disappeared.  It is true that now I would have access to many more areas if I buy an epic pass, but I have no plans on ever going to any of vails properties out west


Explain how vails prices are twice the price of peaks


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> My season pass price doubled when peak passes disappeared.  It is true that now I would have access to many more areas if I buy an epic pass, but I have no plans on ever going to any of vails properties out west


How? Best guess is you don't fit into the 30-65 age bracket or whatever "full price adult" is these days.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Explain how vails prices are twice the price of peaks


For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Well I think last year was what? Year three for Stowe?  Hadn't really announced anything big planned there.  They definitely need a lift upgrade on the Forerunner side.
> 
> They did announce the Okemo lift upgrades.
> 
> ...


Before COVID, I would have been very surprised if the summit triple at Attitash weren't addressed next summer. It's unbecoming of a "Vail Resort". Given the insane lines I've seen posted online at the main base at Mt. Snow, I would have been surprised if a Carinthia 6-pack with Carinthia going to Sunbrook (or just a new Sunbrook) weren't a 1-2 year from now event, too.  There was a post on liftblog saying that Vail either got or re-applied for West Bowl approval (can't remember which) in the last few weeks.  Doesn't mean its imminent per se. 

Other than Stowe, I don't think Vail has done anything to show they're not serious about upgrading their east coast resorts. Stowe is also in pretty good shape in the grand scheme of things, too (on mountain; by east coast standards). That said, I wouldn't predict much of anything happening in the next 5 years, to your point.


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double


Yeah that's a temporary problem for you. You'll be in your 30s before you know it.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah that's a temporary problem for you. You'll be in your 30s before you know it.


I'm not too worried about the extra few hundred dollars, if I end up getting the pass next year.  My only point was not everybody benefited from the big passes.  The under 30 crowd saw their passes go up considerably


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## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

My brother's in your boat. I used to be not too long ago.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> T
> 
> The market looks ahead not where you are or have been, the market sees growth ahead For vail.   I would like new spending at attitash and wildcat also, does wildcat have water issues?  Do you think vail will expand ski acreage at attitash?  The west bowl expansion at Sunapee is needed, wonder if that gets delayed due to  gm bartels leaving Sunapee for Mt snow?


Per conversations with prior GM at Cat, while the pond is small, it fills rapidly.  It's air and pumping capacity that's the limiting factor.  They only cover probably 140 acres of terrain and it often takes them to mid-late January to finish the job.  It was also labor issues.  They shared some of the team with Attitash, so there were many days the past several years that it was plenty cold to blow at Cat and the guns weren't on.  

I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful.  It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time.  I think they have plenty of terrain as is.  Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.

I don't have a ton of insight into Sunapee.  Only started really skiing there somewhat regularly last season.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Before COVID, I would have been very surprised if the summit triple at Attitash weren't addressed next summer. It's unbecoming of a "Vail Resort". Given the insane lines I've seen posted online at the main base at Mt. Snow, I would have been surprised if a Carinthia 6-pack with Carinthia going to Sunbrook (or just a new Sunbrook) weren't a 1-2 year from now event, too.  There was a post on liftblog saying that Vail either got or re-applied for West Bowl approval (can't remember which) in the last few weeks.  Doesn't mean its imminent per se.
> 
> Other than Stowe, I don't think Vail has done anything to show they're not serious about upgrading their east coast resorts. Stowe is also in pretty good shape in the grand scheme of things, too (on mountain; by east coast standards). That said, I wouldn't predict much of anything happening in the next 5 years, to your point.


Stowe definitely needs more uphill capacity on the Forerunner side.  I'd replace the mountain triple with a HSQ at minimum.  Other than that, very little is needed there except maybe expansion of the Midway lodge


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> I
> 
> like vail, like mr. Katz, not sure why the complaints, like alterra also, like the Indy pass, like where skiing is headed, people are so negative, guess people aren’t happen unless they can complain about something, does any one really what to go back to a 2k season pass that’s only good at one mountain, I am so glad vail changed skiing.



Not being open and the waiting room are both unfortunate but understandable if they would simply communicate. I was out hiking with my kids this afternoon, constantly checking my phone to make sure I was home for week of ticket release, in the event wildcat was released. That is ridiculous, they have an idea when it will open but refuse to tell us.

If it is that they want polecat on opening day, or two mountains or there was a snowmaking failure; just give us some clue. We have lived through 2020, we can handle bad news but asking us to live our life around their waiting room is insulting.

And how on earth do they not have a standard pass for young kids. This blows my mind that not only do they lack a fixed approach, the customer service people have no idea how to answer the question.

These are not superpass or corporate ownership issues, they are vail issues. I registered for this forum 15 years ago to ask attitash a question. I wanted to know if they would note race closures closures on illusion  and avenger because on hard fast days race closures made the extra drive to SR worth it. They were the original corporate superpass, they answered the question and made the change. Vail wont even give us a snow report.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Wha


icecoast1 said:


> I'm not too worried about the extra few hundred dollars, if I end up getting the pass next year.  My only point was not everybody benefited from the big passes.  The under 30 crowd saw their passes go up considerably


what was the price of the under 30 pass at peaks?


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful.  It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time.  I think they have plenty of terrain as is.  Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.


The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Wha
> 
> what was the price of the under 30 pass at peaks?


Looked up the drifter pass it was 399, northeast value pass is 629, plus you get more mtns, Stowe okemo Sunapee for 230 bucks more per year, and I am sure drifter pass wouldn’t be 399 this year, probably fifty bucks more, one thing I liked about peak passs, they gave a discount at the ski shop , wish vail would add that


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

thebigo said:


> The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.


Vail has a lot of experience working with the forest service so I am sure then can get thru as quickly as possible, my guess vail has a unit that works just with the forest service


----------



## drjeff (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double


Anyone over 18, but under 30, that's roughly the case. Teenagers are basically the same


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Per conversations with prior GM at Cat, while the pond is small, it fills rapidly.  It's air and pumping capacity that's the limiting factor.  They only cover probably 140 acres of terrain and it often takes them to mid-late January to finish the job.  It was also labor issues.  They shared some of the team with Attitash, so there were many days the past several years that it was plenty cold to blow at Cat and the guns weren't on.
> 
> I'd say terrain expansion at Attitash is doubtful.  It's almost all on USFS land, so permitting would be costly and take a long time.  I think they have plenty of terrain as is.  Problem is the best of it takes a 16 minute ride to access.
> 
> I don't have a ton of insight into Sunapee.  Only started really skiing there somewhat regularly last season.


BH certainly would have known best. They also have limited power from what I have been told, one reason the booster station is all diesels. Their water pumping capacity is woefully inadequate I believe about 2,000 GPM. A mountain with that much acreage should be triple that. Not only that, besides the core sections of pipe they replaced a few years back, the entire place is old rotting victaulic pipe. They can't even make snow on any expert trails due to both capacity and condition issues.

Attitash needs that triple gone yesterday.

Ragged is going to open first in NH, that tells us where Vail's NH properties rank in priority.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> BH certainly would have known best. They also have limited power from what I have been told, one reason the booster station is all diesels. Their water pumping capacity is woefully inadequate I believe about 2,000 GPM. A mountain with that much acreage should be triple that. Not only that, besides the core sections of pipe they replaced a few years back, the entire place is old rotting victaulic pipe. They can't even make snow on any expert trails due to both capacity and condition issues.
> 
> Attitash needs that triple gone yesterday.
> 
> Ragged is going to open first in NH, that tells us where Vail's NH properties rank in priority.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Heard Brian Fairbanks from jiminy peak on the storm skier podcast, and this was about Brodie, but he said you need  at least 3000 gpm in today’s snowmaking world so 2k is below par.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Probably why BG sees Vail ending in financial ruin.



I wrote a full page, War & Peace post on that theory a few years back. lol

Short version I've seen this story several times prior in my life & it never ends well.  A company "revolutionizing" its' industry, with a "brilliant CEO all-star" with "unique" attributes and qualities.  I see Vail no differently than any other large corporate, numerous bolt-on acquisitions that are immediately accretive to earnings, rinse & repeat, with an ungodly pile of debt.  Turns out the CEO isnt so "brilliant", the low-hanging fruit acquisitions end & you run out of crap to buy, then you start over-paying for acquisitions, then your aggressive accounting tricks run dry, you've raised all prices to their absolute max, you start pissing off your loyal customers, and the debt bomb eventually explodes.

EDIT:  I almost bought puts last week when it was at $283, but they're too thinly traded & expensive.  But I'll be very interested in the next 10Q,, because it will be our first apples-to-apples look at Vail YoY comps without an acquisition to muddy things up (SKIS closed 3Q19).


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> How? Best guess is you don't fit into the 30-65 age bracket or whatever "full price adult" is these days.


Ha...as his next post confirms.

I much prefer season pass to mean unlimited and unhassled access to one mountain. If COVID really does set back Vail's plans 5 years I think eastern skiers will wake up and realize how bad the megapass deal really is.


----------



## da-bum (Dec 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> For anybody under 30, the price is nearly double


I use to regularly buy an adult midweek pass at Hunter, when Peak took over, the price went up over 30%, and now Vail took over, there is another jump close to 40%.  The price almost doubled from the Hunter price.  It offered skiing in Mt Snow, but they opened only one week longer that Hunter and I wasn't going to make that long trip for the very tail end of spring skiing.  I contemplated about switching to Windham, given how infrequently Peak groomed the Northern terrain that turned to ice, but their terrain is just not that challenging and their midweek pass was so much more than the Peak pass (not anymore).  I thought about skipping this season or go infrequently until they offered the use it or lose it credit for closing early last season, along with the reservation option.

Strangely, the Vail Northeast Value pass is priced not much more than a midweek pass, unlike the old days where full pass was alot more than midweek pass.  They probably priced the full pass so that midweek skiers would be tempted to buy the full pass for only a bit more (although with the crowd, I don't think I would want to ski on any weekend), and for people who usually buys consecutive day passes as their vacation, they could spend a bit more and opt for the Value pass (even more so now with the ability to reserve your dates in advance).


----------



## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Heard Brian Fairbanks from jiminy peak on the storm skier podcast, and this was about Brodie, but he said you need  at least 3000 gpm in today’s snowmaking world so 2k is below par.




Jimminy Peak's system is probably on-par with many of the major mountains in the East.  They can blow an absolute metric crapload of snow at once now.  They added a new pond up top 15 years ago, and another new one 2ish years ago.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

Since this is a vail sucks forum, was listening to the gm of saddleback ski resort and he brought up alterra/ikon and vail/epic a few times, made me think they at some point want to sell to one of those two at some point. Would be harder for ikon since they have a relationship with boyne resorts at sugarloaf and Sunday river, I think but not hundred percent sure, the owners of saddleback need to keep it for 10 years for tax purposes, not hundred percent sure of that though. Vail buying saddleback would certainly piss off a lot people,lol


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Jimminy Peak's system is probably on-par with many of the major mountains in the East.  They can blow an absolute metric crapload of snow at once now.  They added a new pond up top 15 years ago, and another new one 2ish years ago.


Jiminy peak is well run


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> *If any new lodge goes in on the east it will be the same as one out west. They copy the same blueprint for many of their new lodges.*



Of course they do.   

Per job function they wear the same color coats at every resort, you dont think the lodges wouldn't look the same!


----------



## catskillman (Dec 2, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Read it
> 17 years later and MORE TRUE than ever before......
> View attachment 42688


----------



## catskillman (Dec 2, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Read it
> 17 years later and MORE TRUE than ever before......
> View attachment 42688


Read "Powder Burn"  - specifically about Vail .......


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wrote a full page, War & Peace post on that theory a few years back. lol
> 
> Short version I've seen this story several times prior in my life & it never ends well.  A company "revolutionizing" its' industry, with a "brilliant CEO all-star" with "unique" attributes and qualities.  I see Vail no differently than any other large corporate, numerous bolt-on acquisitions that are immediately accretive to earnings, rinse & repeat, with an ungodly pile of debt.  Turns out the CEO isnt so "brilliant", the low-hanging fruit acquisitions end & you run out of crap to buy, then you start over-paying for acquisitions, then your aggressive accounting tricks run dry, you've raised all prices to their absolute max, you start pissing off your loyal customers, and the debt bomb eventually explodes.
> 
> EDIT:  I almost bought puts last week when it was at $283, but they're too thinly traded & expensive.  But I'll be very interested in the next 10Q,, because it will be our first apples-to-apples look at Vail YoY comps without an acquisition to muddy things up (SKIS closed 3Q19).


Not sure that works because of COVID 19 affecting earnings, vail wasn’t built in a year, look at alterra they were put together over what a two year period three tops, their loan payments must be massive


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Of course they do.
> 
> Per job function they wear the same color coats at every resort, you dont think the lodges wouldn't look the same!


Lots of their lodges tend to be up the Mtn, mid Mtn or higher, back East the lodges tend to be at the bottom, not sure west coast lodges work back East, but what do I know.


----------



## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

thebigo said:


> The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.


I've thought about this before. Not many of these are true "beginner" options, but they could:
-Retrofit the Kachina triple with a carped load (would involve fixing that awfully flat unload area) to run that lift at higher speed and make better use of the pod. That lift is garbage but can be run much faster than it does (at least it used to at SR).

-Figure out a way to make the pinball alley->lower bridge situation more manageable for beginners - potentially with a second bridge (opening up a way to get beginners to Attitash from Bear safely without going to the top of Bear Peak). They should also only allow one way traffic to Bear Peak on the top bridge. It's amazing that interchange has lasted 25+ years in both directions.

-Replace the double-doubles with at a quad. Widen and reverse the direction at the top of what used to be alleyway so you can go from Spillway->Middle Highway->Lower Whitehorse. If you wanted to get really adventurous, you could even encourage beginners/lower intermediates to ski lower Ptarmigan from the top of what are now the double-doubles. Crossing Whitehorse could definitely be a problem though.

-Either re-grade and prioritize opening Carrigan with snowmaking, or encourage beginners/low intermediates to take Turkey Chute->Moat->Lower Ptarmigan (or continue to Whitehorse) to provide another mellower option(s) off the Yankee.


----------



## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wrote a full page, War & Peace post on that theory a few years back. lol


I remember it. They say intuition is nothing more than pattern recognition.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2020)

thebigo said:


> The single terrain improvement at attitash is beginner terrain. Attitash is terrible for beginers, wildcat is decent but many staying at attitash will not make the drive. Not sure where you would put it though.


Agreed.  Their beginner terrain sucks.  Not much I can think of to improve it.


Newpylong said:


> BH certainly would have known best. They also have limited power from what I have been told, one reason the booster station is all diesels. Their water pumping capacity is woefully inadequate I believe about 2,000 GPM. A mountain with that much acreage should be triple that. Not only that, besides the core sections of pipe they replaced a few years back, the entire place is old rotting victaulic pipe. They can't even make snow on any expert trails due to both capacity and condition issues.
> 
> Attitash needs that triple gone yesterday.
> 
> Ragged is going to open first in NH, that tells us where Vail's NH properties rank in priority.


They've made snow on Black Cat and Starr Line in recent years.  It's interesting and labor intensive as the terrain on both would be near impossible to run a groomer on to spread out; especially Starr Line.   So they just babysit it and frequently adjust gun direction to spread the snow around.  Essentially just leave it whaled up. 

But the Flex Seal and Duct Tape on the pipes with both can't last forever. 

If they were to add one expert trail to the regular rotation, I'd want it to be Tomcat Schuss.  It would make for a great spring bump run, but is one of the first trails to burn out from the amount of sun that hits it.


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## FBGM (Dec 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Lots of their lodges tend to be up the Mtn, mid Mtn or higher, back East the lodges tend to be at the bottom, not sure west coast lodges work back East, but what do I know.


You know how to drink the cool aid, that’s for sure.


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2020)

FBGM said:


> You know how to drink the cool aid, that’s for sure.


What does that mean?


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 3, 2020)

Here’s a conspiracy theory to kick around, sun valley ski area is owned by the people who own Sinclair oil company, they recently put the oil company up for sale, could fetch 3 billion, depending on stock price for vail they could own 1/3 of vail with that, more if vails price sinks.


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## xlr8r (Dec 3, 2020)

Vails lack of communication flat out sucks.  It is deceitful, and they are purposely treating their loyal season passholders poorly.  Vail would probably say snow and weather reports are part of their marketing department, (This is what Intrawest used to say), but the fact is that up until next weekend the only people skiing are passholder with whom Vail has already gotten their money.  This early season was supposed to be Vail rewarding passholders, instead they have pissed everyone off.  All it takes is for a daily message from each mountain to be put up on their websites about when they are trying to make snow and when they hope to open up.  Clearly the weather has been terrible, I do not blame Vail for delaying opening.  But try coming across as a company that cares instead of a company that does not give a sh*t about its customers.

Now as far as investments are concerned, overall Vail has spent less in recent years.  They still favor their Colorado resorts over all others as Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, and Breckenridge all regularly get expanded terrain and new lifts almost every season.  Their Tahoe areas have been ignored, especially Kirkwood and Heavenly (their has been barely any investment in Kirkwood).  Park City and Whistler both received major lift investments in their first couple years of ownership,  But overall their strategy has been to wait about two years after purchase to see how their new mountains operate before making major investments.

Stowe - I bet they view Stowe as being maxed out capacity wise which is probably why nothing major has happened there yet.  The lifts for the most part are modern, I could see either the double or triple getting replaced with a HSQ, but besides that little needs to be done at Stowe.

Okemo - Already had new Lifts and Lodge revamp planned this year which has been delayed.  No reason to expect these improvements won't happen soon.

Mount Snow - Probably will get similar treatment to Okemo with a couple new lifts soon (HSQ in Sunbrook) and lodge revamp.  A bunch of the fixed grips might see revamps instead replacements.

Wildcat - I do not see much of anything happening to Wildcat, this is probably going to be like Kirkwood.  

Attitash - I think they will replace the Triple with a HSQ.  The double doubles also need to be replaced as they are ancient and terrible as beginner lifts.  Summit Triple could be relocated to replace the double doubles or a new fixed quad.  This is all probably 2+ years away though.

Crotched - Like Wildcat I do not see much at all happening here, the biggest need is a beginner trail from the summit beyond jupiter storm.

Sunapee - This is the place I am most unsure of what Vail will do.  They could leave things pretty much as is, or they could go through with the west bowl expansion.  Sunapee already has high skier visit numbers that could grow with expansion.  Also expansion could relieve the poor parking situation at Sunapee on busy days.


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## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Vails lack of communication flat out sucks.  It is deceitful, and they are purposely treating their loyal season passholders poorly.  Vail would probably say snow and weather reports are part of their marketing department, (This is what Intrawest used to say), but the fact is that up until next weekend the only people skiing are passholder with whom Vail has already gotten their money.  This early season was supposed to be Vail rewarding passholders, instead they have pissed everyone off.  All it takes is for a daily message from each mountain to be put up on their websites about when they are trying to make snow and when they hope to open up.  Clearly the weather has been terrible, I do not blame Vail for delaying opening.  But try coming across as a company that cares instead of a company that does not give a sh*t about its customers.
> 
> Now as far as investments are concerned, overall Vail has spent less in recent years.  They still favor their Colorado resorts over all others as Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, and Breckenridge all regularly get expanded terrain and new lifts almost every season.  Their Tahoe areas have been ignored, especially Kirkwood and Heavenly (their has been barely any investment in Kirkwood).  Park City and Whistler both received major lift investments in their first couple years of ownership,  But overall their strategy has been to wait about two years after purchase to see how their new mountains operate before making major investments.
> 
> ...


Excellent overview. That's more or less exactly my synopsis/expectation(s).


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## tumbler (Dec 3, 2020)

All one has to do is look at ASC as the example.  Feels like deja vous all over again with no capital investments, shitty communication and the home office taking the soul of the individual mountain community away.  
It is an industry that barely makes money and is totally dependent on the weather in winter.  And only making money during the winter on some holiday days.


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## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> All one has to do is look at ASC as the example.  Feels like deja vous all over again with no capital investments, shitty communication and the home office taking the soul of the individual mountain community away.
> It is an industry that barely makes money and is totally dependent on the weather in winter.  And only making money during the winter on some holiday days.



As much as I CERTAINLY have my concerns about Vail Resorts operations and communications as a Mount Snow 2nd homeowner, I am trying to give them a bit of slack on SOME things, given the timeframe of how things have gone down. Last season, especially for the Peak properties, Vail took over far to close to the start of the season to see how they'd run the resort fully their way, with their staff. Then COVID hit. This year isn't going to be a true indicator in how they'll run the resort. Next year, we'll likely see more of their day to day "normal" operations and get a feel for those. The '22-'23 season is when I would suspect we might get a feel as to how much, or little they'll make capital investments.

I sure hope their communications department starts to realize that what Eastern, mainly day trip and weekend visitors, in a much more highly dynamic weather environment that larger, Rockies destination resorts, needs is different, since frankly now the level of communications and basic details about snowmaking trails, etc, is worse than anything I can recall in the over 40 years that I have been skiing


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## icecoast1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Wha
> 
> what was the price of the under 30 pass at peaks?


between 3-400 depending on when you bought it and if you got the midweek only or 7 day a week pass


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## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

drjeff said:


> As much as I CERTAINLY have my concerns about Vail Resorts operations and communications as a Mount Snow 2nd homeowner, I am trying to give them a bit of slack on SOME things, given the timeframe of how things have gone down. Last season, especially for the Peak properties, Vail took over far to close to the start of the season to see how they'd run the resort fully their way, with their staff. Then COVID hit. This year isn't going to be a true indicator in how they'll run the resort. Next year, we'll likely see more of their day to day "normal" operations and get a feel for those. The '22-'23 season is when I would suspect we might get a feel as to how much, or little they'll make capital investments.
> 
> I sure hope their communications department starts to realize that what Eastern, mainly day trip and weekend visitors, in a much more highly dynamic weather environment that larger, Rockies destination resorts, needs is different, since frankly now the level of communications and basic details about snowmaking trails, etc, is worse than anything I can recall in the over 40 years that I have been skiing


I’m cutting them slack also, but I assume they know precisely what eastern skiers expect with snow reports. If they don’t tighten it up 2 weeks from now, it’ll be obvious they’ve chosen to blow it off.


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## FBGM (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> What does that mean?


Ok Boomer...


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## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> I’m cutting them slack also, but I assume they know precisely what eastern skiers expect with snow reports. If they don’t tighten it up 2 weeks from now, it’ll be obvious they’ve chosen to blow it off.


Totally with you on this approach. I don't think there are a ton of conclusions that can be drawn from this season other than how they handle the basics. This year is just going to be too abnormal.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 3, 2020)

I think its pretty clear they don't care what the eastern skier thinks or wants.    This poor snow reporting started day 1 at Stowe and has continued ever since.

I don't really have a an issue with some of the corporate combining/branding hoopla.  Its more the global "blind eye" to the ski culture and just how the eastern ski area business works differently than destination resorts that is disappointing and downright disrespectful...

I don't have a choice but to buy an epic pass because of my local ski hill and I do use my pass elsewhere out west and in New England.  So that is a little silver lining I guess.


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## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Totally with you on this approach. I don't think there are a ton of conclusions that can be drawn from this season other than how they handle the basics. This year is just going to be too abnormal.


Bad Communication has nothing to do with what is going on covid wise. It is a basic. It also has nothing to do with them only owning the NE mtns for little over a year.


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## Cobbold (Dec 3, 2020)

hopefully they yet each resort in the northeast do their own snow report, Mt snows was terrific, not sure why you would end that, but oh well, I guess the epic brand is greater than each Mtn brand.


Smellytele said:


> Bad Communication has nothing to do with what is going on covid wise. It is a basic. It also has nothing to do with them only owning the NE mtns for little over a ye


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## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Bad Communication has nothing to do with what is going on covid wise. It is a basic. It also has nothing to do with them only owning the NE mtns for little over a year.


Agreed


----------



## spiderpig (Dec 3, 2020)

Of the areas that I normally visit, they seem to do some level of snow reporting/local content at Mount Snow, Hunter, and Stowe. Okemo gets almost all corporate content, except on the OkemoConditions twitter page. Seems like that lack of communication carries over into NH. I think Wildcat would have been open on their original opening day if not for the high temps in the prior days, since that would have made them first to open in the northeast, if I remember correctly. I am trying to cut them slack due to covid, but they did a bad job with the snowmaking plan at Okemo, too. Mount Snow seems to be in good shape comparatively.


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## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> hopefully they yet each resort in the northeast do their own snow report, Mt snows was terrific, not sure why you would end that, but oh well, I guess the epic brand is greater than each Mtn brand.




I doubt that Mount Snow's will be anything but the standard Vail corporate one anymore.

The former communications director, whom Vail chose to hire and make some sort of Eastern Communications Director for Vail Resorts, if I am not mistaken based on his social media feed, has moved with his family to the Portland, ME area this Fall.

Heck, I'd just be happy with a little icon on the lift/trail report page that shows what trails they're making snow on. 

Unfortunately it appears that long gone are the days where they had weekly video reports as well as blogs by the GM and various other staff members and a snow report that actually had some insight as to where they're making snow and what the next trails to receive snowmaking will be


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## kingslug (Dec 3, 2020)

Guess we just look at the weather report each day..even though it is usually for the town and not a mountain report, and make our own assumptions. I gave up with relying on ski resorts to tell me anything. Even open and closed trails reports are sketchy.
Once in a while I get a "will it be icy?" oh I don't know..it rained for 2 days and now it 12 degrees..it might be..who knows.


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## thebigo (Dec 3, 2020)

Latest Euro lays down 17'' in the notch this weekend. NWS showing 6 - 8". Very interested to see if a foot of fresh would be enough for them to deviate from their plan?


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## SLyardsale (Dec 3, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I doubt that Mount Snow's will be anything but the standard Vail corporate one anymore.
> 
> The former communications director, whom Vail chose to hire and make some sort of Eastern Communications Director for Vail Resorts, if I am not mistaken based on his social media feed, has moved with his family to the Portland, ME area this Fall.
> 
> ...


Then why on earth would you cut them slack.  Covid is an excuse for shitty communications?  That does seem the norm among various businesses, however.  "Yeah, our service sucks because of Covid".

Question - does Tracy take phone calls?  Does she answer emails?


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## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

Cranmore and Bretton Woods are open tomorrow and Wildcat isn’t. The world has become surreal.


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## spiderpig (Dec 3, 2020)

SLyardsale said:


> Then why on earth would you cut them slack.  Covid is an excuse for shitty communications?  That does seem the norm among various businesses, however.  "Yeah, our service sucks because of Covid".
> 
> Question - does Tracy take phone calls?  Does she answer emails?


I'm guessing "cut them slack" is a response to me. I am referring to their terrain, not the communications.


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## Cobbold (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> Cranmore and Bretton Woods are open tomorrow and Wildcat isn’t. The world has become surreal.


Does wildcat usually open before Canmore?


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## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Does wildcat usually open before Canmore?


Typically weeks earlier


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## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Does wildcat usually open before Canmore?


The town of Canmore is open year round.


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## FBGM (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> hopefully they yet each resort in the northeast do their own snow report, Mt snows was terrific, not sure why you would end that, but oh well, I guess the epic brand is greater than each Mtn brand.


Anything Vail does to Mount Snow is for the better. They started by peeing on that dumpster fire and now it’s 2x better.


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## snoseek (Dec 3, 2020)

Has anyone been keeping an eye on the wildcat cam? I know it was warm today but yesterday seemed cold enough to blow. Are they even blowing this week? I  know they probably want good temps as water is limited....

If snow comes in like they are hinting this weekend and they don't open in nh somewhere I'll be puzzled.


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## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The town of Canmore is open year round.


Stayed there for a week once. It’s quite nice.


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## RichT (Dec 3, 2020)

FAKE NEWS NOW!! Here's the base camera screen shot for Hunter 5 mins ago, not only is it dark outside, this is from days ago! There is just about NO snow at the bottom anymore.


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## thebigo (Dec 3, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Has anyone been keeping an eye on the wildcat cam? I know it was warm today but yesterday seemed cold enough to blow. Are they even blowing this week? I  know they probably want good temps as water is limited....
> 
> If snow comes in like they are hinting this weekend and they don't open in nh somewhere I'll be puzzled.


A Winter Storm Watch has been issued for most of the state this weekend. The National Weather Service is now calling for 12 - 18'' at the cat this weekend. This is not the high end estimate, it is the likely event total snowfall. Those of us who have been skiing wildcat our entire life, understand the microclimate in the notch during marginal temperature storms and can safely assume the cat will over preform. 





__





						GYX Winter Weather Forecasts
					





					www.weather.gov
				




To my knowledge Wildcat is not currently water limited. I checked the webcam more times today than I care to admit and saw no signs of snowmaking. I am not in the valley, I do not know if it is cold enough to blow or if they were blowing elsewhere on the mountain, you cannot see most of polecat on the webcam. I can tell you that the Attitash webcam shows bare ground, while the two nearest competitors are open. I will be in the valley either late tomorrow or early saturday and plan to report back.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 3, 2020)

Hunter base cam is out but the top is working and shows they blew snow. I've...been watching.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 3, 2020)




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## RichT (Dec 3, 2020)

kingslug said:


> View attachment 49624View attachment 49625


Yep but NO snowmaking at the base, Belt also was done but only the top. BTW it was 29 degrees all night at the base. And now the weather has been updated to "mixed" precipitation for Saturday


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## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

RichT said:


> Yep but NO snowmaking at the base, Belt also was done but only the top. BTW it was 29 degrees all night at the base.



I wouldn't waste money making snow at 29 either...especially considering the humidity was in the 70-80% range all night per Hunter's weather station data. That puts you right on the lower end of the marginal range for snowmaking.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Does wildcat usually open before Canmore?


The base at Wildcat is 600 feet higher than the summit at Cranmore. They are less than 20 miles apart. 

Despite this I just bought day tickets to Cranmore on Sunday because Vail sucks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The town of Canmore is open year round.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

RichT said:


> Yep but NO snowmaking at the base, Belt also was done but only the top. BTW it was 29 degrees all night at the base. And now the weather has been updated to "mixed" precipitation for Saturday


29 degrees with moderate humidity gives an ugly wet bulb temperature where whatever limited product is made would more likely resemble a slurpy instead of snow.

Air temp and wet bulb temp (air temp with humidity factored in) are 2 different things, and with respect to snowmaking, its all about the wet bulb, and the vast majority of the time, if the wet bulb is above 28, its not worth the cost of making snow, unless its a dire emergency


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Does wildcat usually open before Canmore?


Usually do at least two weeks prior. Sometimes as much as a month.  

Wildcat typically competes with Bretton Woods to be first open in the state.  It's probably 50/50 who wins most years.  Loon has won some years too.  

Wildcat has opened in October a couple of times in the past 15 years.  Like the 30th, but in October none the less 

Most years Cat is open by around November 12th and Cranmore the last weekend in November.

So we are looking at about a month later start than normal for Cat.  Crappy weather to be certain, but the fact that Cranmore and Ragged will be open before Cat this year is a pretty terrible look for Vail


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Usually do at least two weeks prior. Sometimes as much as a month.
> 
> Wildcat typically competes with Bretton Woods to be first open in the state.  It's probably 50/50 who wins most years.  Loon has won some years too.
> 
> ...


They will blame inversion...

actually they probably won’t say anything.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 3, 2020)

kingslug said:


> View attachment 49624View attachment 49625


What Mtn is this?


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## snoseek (Dec 3, 2020)

If they started the season later and ended it later at the cat I would 100 percent be on board covid or not but sadly its not gonna work out that way


----------



## RichT (Dec 3, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> What Mtn is this?


Hunter, I know that lodge looks like a WWII bunker.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

RichT said:


> Hunter, I know that lodge looks like a WWII bunker.


The inside wasn't much better either the last time I was in it!


----------



## kingslug (Dec 4, 2020)

I like the top lodge..Big fireplace..old skis all over the place..convenient..


----------



## thebigo (Dec 4, 2020)

GYX holding strong at 12 - 18'', may be our largest storm in a few years. Silence from Vail. 





__





						GYX Winter Weather Forecasts
					





					www.weather.gov


----------



## da-bum (Dec 4, 2020)

RichT said:


> FAKE NEWS NOW!! Here's the base camera screen shot for Hunter 5 mins ago, not only is it dark outside, this is from days ago! There is just about NO snow at the bottom anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 49623



Ha, its a static image from Nov 24:


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## kingslug (Dec 4, 2020)

top camera is working..warm up there


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## mlkrgr (Dec 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Usually do at least two weeks prior. Sometimes as much as a month.
> 
> Wildcat typically competes with Bretton Woods to be first open in the state.  It's probably 50/50 who wins most years.  Loon has won some years too.
> 
> ...


And Wachusett technically beats Wildcat this year too! Wa is reopening tomorrow with all this snow & not a peap out of the cat. 
I'm happy I bought my Wa pass this year and decided to pass on the epic pass.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 5, 2020)

The wildcat cam is looking nuclear at the moment. Up until tomorrow or monday I'll give them a pass as the weather has been shit and the nh areas probably don't have the firepower that the vt properties. After that I'm straight up pissed if all 3 vt areas are open and none in nh. Am I supposed to break rules to use my pass?


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## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

snoseek said:


> The wildcat cam is looking nuclear at the moment. Up until tomorrow or monday I'll give them a pass as the weather has been shit and the nh areas probably don't have the firepower that the vt properties. After that I'm straight up pissed if all 3 vt areas are open and none in nh. Am I supposed to break rules to use my pass?


Organize a skinning party starting from Wildcat parking lot?


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## thebigo (Dec 5, 2020)

It has been all rain in the valley. Headed up to wildcat around noon, it turned to snow roughly where you enter the wmnf. Drove further, then turned around before I got to the notch. Attitash is bare ground.

I have never heard of ski area getting feet of snow and not mentioning it. There is nothing about the storm on their website or social media. The snow report was last updated on November 12.

Bought tickets to cranmore tomorrow, was hoping for fresh but with all this rain, day #1 may be a $100 run down the bunny hill.


----------



## Gforce (Dec 5, 2020)

This is exactly why I declined to get an Epic pass after 8 seasons with a $649 Peaks Pass. This along with the Covid situation it just seemed crazy to shell out $1000+ or whatever it is now with all the unknowns and an anticipated subpar on mountain product for the 20-21 season. Masks on the slopes, reservations, longer lines, reduced staffing/poor service, no lodge, no apres ski....doesn't sound fun so I passed.  
I am playing it by ear and may just do day trips when and where I can.


----------



## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

Gforce said:


> it just seemed crazy to shell out $1000+ or *whatever it is* now


It was only half of that back in September. 

Not that much more even now.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 5, 2020)

abc said:


> It was only half of that back in September.
> 
> Not that much more even now.


Yeah as much as I'm critical of Vail the pass prices are a great deal all around


----------



## JimG. (Dec 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I like the top lodge..Big fireplace..old skis all over the place..convenient..


Scotties rocks!


----------



## JimG. (Dec 5, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Yeah as much as I'm critical of Vail the pass prices are a great deal all around


Until they don't open your mountain.


----------



## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Until they don't open your mountain.


Still doesn’t change the pass price.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Not sure that works because of COVID 19 affecting earnings,



Yes!  This is the kicker.  Ironically, COVID19 is likely going to allow Vail to "escape" any apples-to-apples accounting measure.  I think anyway.  I guarantee Vail's accounting department & CFO are currently big bathing & shoehorning whatever the worst financials they have into 2020 before the page turns to 2021.  It will buy them some time, but eventually the grim reaper of debt will win.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

RichT said:


> FAKE NEWS NOW!! Here's the base camera screen shot for Hunter 5 mins ago, not only is it dark outside, this is from days ago! There is just about NO snow at the bottom anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 49623



I _thought _I recognized the Apollo 11 flag!
​


----------



## thebigo (Dec 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Until they don't open your mountain.


That is the problem. Vail is like buying a weed whacker at Walmart. Sure it is cheap and sure there is one on every corner but the second something breaks, you need a part, or have a question - you are screwed. Good thing is you only make the mistake once and pay an extra couple hundred for the replacement at the tractor dealer.

Problem is the competition cannot just go and open another ski mountain. $475 unlimited to four major mountains in nh is far too cheap. They need to cut corners somewhere and it appears to be customer service and season length. I get the 'you do not need to buy a pass' argument but we are a skiing family, that is what we do and I am not about to take up ice skating or snowmobiling. Living where we do, and given our current family dynamic, there are no great alternatives to the terrain and accessibility offered by vail.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2020)

thebigo said:


> That is the problem. Vail is like buying a weed whacker at Walmart. Sure it is cheap and sure there is one on every corner but the second something breaks, you need a part, or have a question - you are screwed. Good thing is you only make the mistake once and pay an extra couple hundred for the replacement at the tractor dealer.
> 
> Problem is the competition cannot just go and open another ski mountain. $475 unlimited to four major mountains in nh is far too cheap. They need to cut corners somewhere and it appears to be customer service and season length. I get the 'you do not need to buy a pass' argument but we are a skiing family, that is what we do and I am not about to take up ice skating or snowmobiling. Living where we do, and given our current family dynamic, there are no great alternatives to the terrain and accessibility offered by vail.


And maybe someday they will open..,


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Still doesn’t change the pass price.


Doesn't change the price but does change its value.


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## RichT (Dec 6, 2020)

Right now reservations are wide open (core season) let's see what happens when the gates are open to the general population! And us season passholders can't cancel our passes anymore. I think weekends will be the problem, weekdays will be more crowed too.


----------



## abc (Dec 6, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn't change the price but does change its value.


Value is subjective, it varies depending on individual circumstance.

Price is price. It doesn't change. 

Don't confuse value with price. 

Epic pass is low in price. That's a fact. 

Whether that's good value or not, it's up to the individual to decide. I wouldn't buy an Epic pass for 20/21 had it not for the credit I had carried over from 19/20. Nor am I asking for a refund even though I could qualify for one, because I want to ski the Vail mountains this season. And the price is just about justifiable, and better than any alternatives I can find.

Just like Walmart drives down price (and quality, some argue) of goods in some markets, Vail does pretty much the same. But on the other hand, there're markets where competition give them a run for their money. It depends whether you're in a position to change market or not. For those who can't, that's unfortunate.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 6, 2020)

Unfortunately, this is a serious question. 

How do you you know if they are going to open a mountain? What did they do in Vermont? 

Do they announce it on the website? Social media? Or do you have to constantly check the epic waiting room?


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes!  This is the kicker.  Ironically, COVID19 is likely going to allow Vail to "escape" any apples-to-apples accounting measure.  I think anyway.  I guarantee Vail's accounting department & CFO are currently big bathing & shoehorning whatever the worst financials they have into 2020 before the page turns to 2021.  It will buy them some time, but eventually the grim reaper of debt will win.if you think vail will coll


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 6, 2020)

If you think vail will collapse do you have the same opinion that alterra also collapses?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> If you think vail will collapse do you have the same opinion that alterra also collapses?


Alterra is a privately owned company so I have zero glimpse into their financials.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 6, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> If you think vail will collapse do you have the same opinion that alterra also collapses?


I hope Vail collapses. Or maybe more of a sell off and spit up or something. And they very well could. They have extended themselves quite a bit. A correction and shake up in the ski business might not be the worst thing ever.


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## drjeff (Dec 6, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Unfortunately, this is a serious question.
> 
> How do you you know if they are going to open a mountain? What did they do in Vermont?
> 
> Do they announce it on the website? Social media? Or do you have to constantly check the epic waiting room?


It was all of the above for Mount Snow.

Their communications about conditions, operations, and openings, frankly is atrocious, and inexcusable. 

For what I used to be able to look up in about 30 seconds on the Mount Snow main web page about conditions and even "whats up next" in early season snowmaking plans, I'm now having to rely on texts to my friends who live up permanently at the mountain to find out, if either myself or a member of my family aren't up at our condo and on the hill.

Heck, even when I'm at my condo, while I can often visually see more than the snowreport says, there's still aboit 1/3rd of the terrain that I can't see unless I am on the hill myself.


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## thebigo (Dec 6, 2020)

My older daughter and i skied cranmore today. Had a good time, then went into town and refreshed her gear. We now plan to sit here for a week waiting for vail to give a shit about new hampshire.


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## Gforce (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> It was only half of that back in September.
> 
> Not that much more even now.


I did not see the off season pass prices that low, $500? wow... really. we will see what happens. 
Maybe in the East we get a good winter and the restrictions loosen up then it would be a great value.   Right now it's still all sketchy and I'd say the jury is out.


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## Edd (Dec 7, 2020)

thebigo said:


> My older daughter and i skied cranmore today. Had a good time, then went into town and refreshed her gear. We now plan to sit here for a week waiting for vail to give a shit about new hampshire.


Any word on if their HSQ will be running when they reopen? Tough for me to day trip there with only South Branch running.


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 7, 2020)

Every ski are in the Poconos have their web cams running and they all are making snow except the two Vail owned resorts. Hopefully they are making snow but without the cams on, so I have no idea.


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## Edd (Dec 7, 2020)

No opening date announcement from Sunapee. Fuck, this is going poorly.


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## kingslug (Dec 7, 2020)

So Vail has ordered all these places to shut down their webcams. WTF?
Well the top cam at Hunter is on and they are blowing.
And Gore was fun...


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## RichT (Dec 7, 2020)

kingslug said:


> So Vail has ordered all these places to shut down their webcams. WTF?
> Well the top cam at Hunter is on and they are blowing.
> And Gore was fun...


They must, you can view Hunter's base cam via Iplivecams.com, but not on Hunter's site. Vail=Shit Show! How I miss the Slutskey's!!!!!!!!


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 7, 2020)

RichT said:


> They must, you can view Hunter's base cam via Iplivecams.com, but not on Hunter's site. Vail=Shit Show! How I miss the Slutskey's!!!!!!!!


Thanks for the link, I never would have thought to look a their cams that way. Only one is working at my local hill and it's covered in snow so I guess they are making it.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Edd said:


> No opening date announcement from Sunapee. Fuck, this is going poorly.


Reservations were open for this upcoming weekend at Sunapee.  I booked for Sunday.  Hopefully they open


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 7, 2020)

got on the ground confirmation they are making snow in southcentral PA at Roundtop.


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## thebigo (Dec 7, 2020)

Edd said:


> Any word on if their HSQ will be running when they reopen? Tough for me to day trip there with only South Branch running


The valley got almost no snow, the grass is still showing. The quad was running yesterday for maintenance but there was no snowmaking apparent from downtown yesterday afternoon. I would give them a call, the operation was very well run yesterday with some of the kindest staff I have encountered. They actually had people waiting to stand with your kids and gear while one person went in to get the tickets. Taking the kids to the playground downtown after lunch, will let you if I see snowmaking.


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## JimG. (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Value is subjective, it varies depending on individual circumstance.
> 
> Price is price. It doesn't change.
> 
> ...


Let's try this...

So since "price is price" but you have decided to NOT buy an epic pass this season, can I assume that you thusly consider it low in value for your specific circumstances?


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## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Let's try this...
> 
> So since "price is price" but you have decided to NOT buy an epic pass this season, can I assume that you thusly consider it low in value for your specific circumstances?


The short answer would have been a YES!

A slightly longer answer: I could ski Belleayre & Plattekill for less than $50 midweek. Using that calculation, the Epic pass even at $500 (with credit from last season), would only break even if I ski more than 10 times. And I've all along been clear I really dislike the crowds in many of Vail's mountains (Hunter/Okemo), which will be extra challenging this season. Do I expect to be able to ski 10 times? Probably. Will I enjoy skiing very crowded places for MORE THAN 10 times? Rather doubtful. Hence, I considered it not a good value. Was resigned to NOT buying a pass.

But that was 2 weeks ago.  I've now bought a Northeast only pass 5 days ago. 

Because my circumstance changed.

I've just got an invitation to stay at an empty house in VT part of January to February. So all of a sudden, I can legally satisfy the quarantine requirement. I can day trip from there to Stowe! Further, I've found out my favorite lodging in NH will be operating on a partial schedule, which happened to fit my work schedule like a glove. I will get to check in after it's empty for 2-4 days and stay in my own room the whole week/weekend! Wildcat has not been crowded the many times I was up there (last season). So I all of a sudden had a realistic expectation to ENJOY skiing probably more than 10 times in Vail mountains. In this new circumstance, the Epic pass's value is worth the price.

I was a bit "lucky" that Vail screwed up my 2019 credit. So they had to make it up by giving me the early bird sale price retroactively, plus the 2019 credit, which brings my pass cost to BELOW $500. That's a luxury not everyone has, to make a last minute decision while enjoying the early purchase price. (actually, I had to really push to get them to honor my credit & early season pricing, which I did AFTER I realize I wanted the pass given the new arrangements) Would I buy a pass WITHOUT the credit & early bird pricing? I probably won't! The value-to-price break even line was that thin.

I've never been a big Vail fan. But I get the Epic pass once in a while because their portfolio includes a couple of mountains I consider worth skiing occasionally. Rather than skiing Stowe a few day each year, I hope to ski it a bunch (ok, max 10 days on my pass) one year. And then turn my back on it for next couple years.

Maybe because I'm not locked in to Vail, I don't feel quite so up-in-arms against some of their practices. I simply shrug and go elsewhere.


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## thebigo (Dec 7, 2020)

Did some reconnaissance this after noon:

Wildcat has a few guns running in the base area. Along with what appears to be middle lynx and the short steep stretch at the bottom of lynx. Best guess they got around 6" of snow. It was 22f on my dash in the notch.

Attitash appears to be blowing saco, there are also a number of fan guns running in the base area and learning terrain. Bear has a few guns running in the base area and the small park on that side. Also illusion top to bottom. Dash read 32 f at the base.

Both lodges are posted employees only, public not allowed or something to that accord. They told me to stop by and pick up my four year old's pass but did not attempt based on the signage. Was really trying to avoid the lodge on opening weekend but may have no choice.

If forced to guess wildcat open Friday with lynx. Attitash open Saturday with illusion and a small park on the bear side plus the learning area on the attitash side. I have not guessed a single thing correctly this fall.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2020)

Anyone know what time tomorrow tickets go on sale tomorrow for the unwashed?


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 7, 2020)

Someone at Vail HQ finally realized the lack of communication was starting to hurt their brand.  Looking at the Facebook pages, Wildcat is opening Friday, Sunapee, Attitash (Bear side), and Crotched are all opening Saturday.


----------



## catskillman (Dec 7, 2020)

RichT said:


> They must, you can view Hunter's base cam via Iplivecams.com, but not on Hunter's site. Vail=Shit Show! How I miss the Slutskey's!!!!!!!!


You are right, now the only cam that even shows on Hunter's site it the summit.  Crazy as now that they are making snow at the base and it is no longer all brown and spotty you would think that they would want everyone to see.  

What is their reasoning / thoughts on blocking these cams on their sites, when you can get them on livecam?  Would love you hear that reasoning / excuse


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 7, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Someone at Vail HQ finally realized the lack of communication was starting to hurt their brand.  Looking at the Facebook pages, Wildcat is opening Friday, Sunapee, Attitash (Bear side), and Crotched are all opening Saturday.


I wouldn't give them that much credit. They communicated because day tickets go on sale tomorrow. They want to make more money.


----------



## andrec10 (Dec 7, 2020)

RichT said:


> They must, you can view Hunter's base cam via Iplivecams.com, but not on Hunter's site. Vail=Shit Show! How I miss the Slutskey's!!!!!!!!


We all do!


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 7, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> I wouldn't give them that much credit. They communicated because day tickets go on sale tomorrow. They want to make more money.



True


----------



## JimG. (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> The short answer would have been a YES!
> 
> A slightly longer answer: I could ski Belleayre & Plattekill for less than $50 midweek. Using that calculation, the Epic pass even at $500 (with credit from last season), would only break even if I ski more than 10 times. And I've all along been clear I really dislike the crowds in many of Vail's mountains (Hunter/Okemo), which will be extra challenging this season. Do I expect to be able to ski 10 times? Probably. Will I enjoy skiing very crowded places for MORE THAN 10 times? Rather doubtful. Hence, I considered it not a good value. Was resigned to NOT buying a pass.
> 
> ...


I see why you like the megapass model. If I thought about skiing like you do I would feel the same way.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

Day tickets are for sale at all but Mt Snow and Wildcat...
Even Attitash has tix for sale. Could I buy a Attitash one and use it at Wildcat or because of covid they won't allow that this year?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Day tickets are for sale at all but Mt Snow and Wildcat...
> Even Attitash has tix for sale. Could I buy a Attitash one and use it at Wildcat or because of covid they won't allow that this year?


Actually upon further review. They aren't for sale yet but show availability at all places but Wildcat and Mt Snow.


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## thebigo (Dec 8, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Day tickets are for sale at all but Mt Snow and Wildcat...
> Even Attitash has tix for sale. Could I buy a Attitash one and use it at Wildcat or because of covid they won't allow that this year?


I asked that specific question and the answer was no. Wildcat and attitash will be treated as separate areas this year. I actually agree with this decision, you cannot have 600 acres of skiers show up at wildcat on a Saturday because it is snowing in the notch and raining in the valley. I have no idea how they handle a midweek wind hold at wildcat, it will require a certain nimbleness that they have not shown.


----------



## Edd (Dec 8, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I asked that specific question and the answer was no. Wildcat and attitash will be treated as separate areas this year. I actually agree with this decision, you cannot have 600 acres of skiers show up at wildcat on a Saturday because it is snowing in the notch and raining in the valley. I have no idea how they handle a midweek wind hold at wildcat, it will require a certain nimbleness that they have not shown.


Midweek at both Cat and Attitash is typically sleepy, although it did pick up at Wildcat last year. I’d think Attitash could absorb the entirety of Wildcat reservations on a day like that, but they likely wouldn’t have to as some will just bail on the ski day.

Weekends, though. That’s sounds like a problem.

Now that I’m thinking about it, does anyone know if a reservation at Wildcat is tied to my RFID pass? So, if I didn’t have a reservation, would my pass not work that day? Not having skied yet, I’m not clear on how they’re managing the reservations.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2020)

yes the reservation is tied to your pass.  no reservation no skiing.   And based on what I've seen you can't have reservations at two places.


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I see why you like the megapass model. If I thought about skiing like you do I would feel the same way.


I don't think we ski all that differently. You too ski multiple resorts.

Though I admittedly don't ski nearly as many days as you. Nor do I ski when condition is crappy.

The megapass allows me to move around for the better condition without paying for day tickets. Before the day of megapasses, I simply sat out those crappy days.

Frankly, the only drawback I see in epic/ikon are the crowds, which is a big one. But as far as Vail goes, it did not CAUSE the crowding. They bought a bunch of mountains that were very crowded to begin with. It was their strategy to "capture" the crowd and entice them to go out west. Well, I had been going out west LONG before Vail bought any of the northeast mountains. So it's pure bonus for me. I get to ski Stowe (now Hunter) without paying extra.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 8, 2020)

According to Facebook pages opening trail rollout is:
Wildcat will be Lynx only
Attitash will be Illusion only
Sunapee will be Blastoff and maybe more?
Crotched will be 5 trails?


----------



## thebigo (Dec 8, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> According to Facebook pages opening trail rollout is:
> Wildcat will be Lynx only
> Attitash will be Illusion only
> Sunapee will be Blastoff and maybe more?
> Crotched will be 5 trails?


I am guessing the five trails at crotched are: sat summit, moonwalk, meteor, galaxy and cosmic. Really two ways down, Crotch likely did best out of the storm last week and can really crank the snow when they want to.

For some reason Crotch reservations for next week are blocked out.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 8, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> According to Facebook pages opening trail rollout is:
> Wildcat will be Lynx only
> Attitash will be Illusion only
> Sunapee will be Blastoff and maybe more?
> Crotched will be 5 trails?


They wanted to wait later at the cat to open more terrain to spread people out and now theyre opening on one run and they expect me to beleive it was all about safety and not about $$$$$? Yeah ok...

Other than that I'm thrilled to have all 4 NH resorts to choose from next week and Sunapee and Crotched are an easy drive for early season WROD laps


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## powdahbonz (Dec 8, 2020)

I don't want to be a pessimist before the season gets cranking but clearly the communication has been poor from Vail to their NE resorts. Friends who have been passholders for years at WC haven't received any different treatment than the transient rider/skier. I grew up skiing in Jackson at Black and surrounding valley areas and it seems the fiber and culture of the area is changing/will change significantly with the current model. The nomad skier/rider is vanishing-you have to be locked down at one spot. I find it hard to justify the cost, even with friend's buddy pass purchases when comparing value to price. Midweek $89 and weekend $95 for online early purchase or buddypass discount? For WC or Attitash? Both Sugarloaf and Sunday River are less on the same dates. Now I know, not comparing apples to apples, but what infrastructure has been improved at either WC/Attitash? 15%-20% increase in cost from last season? WC not opening prior to Cranmore or Bretton Woods? I usually get at least 5-10 days at WC each season-this year I see more earning of turns on AT gear. It's not all bad-I'll drop some weight and save some $$. Pray for snow!


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 8, 2020)

I tried to find out if the little ski bump (Big Boulder) near me will be open this weekend, I could find any info anywhere, even called the local # and got some BS voicemail. So I sent a message trough Facebook and received a reply in about ten minutes saying they will be open Friday.
 I was wrong Jack Frost is going to open, I figured BB because they always have opened first.


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## Not Sure (Dec 8, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> I tried to find out if the little ski bump (Big Boulder) near me will be open this weekend, I could find any info anywhere, even called the local # and got some BS voicemail. So I sent a message trough Facebook and received a reply in about ten minutes saying they will be open Friday.
> I was wrong Jack Frost is going to open, I figured BB because they always have opened first.


Looks like Blue is opening Friday as well.


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## njdiver85 (Dec 8, 2020)

The lack of communication regarding opening days is horrible and I hope Vail looses future pass revenue because of it.  And once your mountains do finally open, be prepared for much less communication on day to day plans regarding trail count as operations/snow making ramp up.  Vail has been teasing about all the trails they are making snow on at Mount Snow, but has not provided anything concrete.  This is very different from past years.


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## mbedle (Dec 9, 2020)

I do have to agree that Vail has the worst websites in the industry. It baffles my mind to see how many mistakes, misinformation or lack of information is present on their sites. Breckenridge is one of their flagship resorts and the terrain and lift status page still has a link to purchasing a epic pass, states specifically that we are open for the 2020-21 season followed by a statement that more details and information will be shared and circulated as we get closer to the 20-21 winter season... Even the wildcat website still states that your lift ticket is good at both resorts on the same day.


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 9, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Looks like Blue is opening Friday as well.


I doubt I'll get to blue much this year since I went Epic this year and the fact that peak time 8 hour pass if bought less than 48 hours before, will cost $109


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 9, 2020)

mbedle said:


> *I do have to agree that Vail has the worst websites in the industry. *It baffles my mind to see how many mistakes, misinformation or lack of information is present on their sites.



I wouldnt be surprised if Vail outsources web-design to a third-part web vendor to save money.

Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.


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## Not Sure (Dec 9, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> I doubt I'll get to blue much this year since I went Epic this year and the fact that peak time 8 hour pass if bought less than 48 hours before, will cost $109








						Poconos, PA lift tickets | Blue Mountain Resort
					

Are you looking for lift tickets in PA? Enjoy the best skiing and riding with lift tickets to Blue Mountain Resort in the Poconos. Buy in advance and save!




					www.skibluemt.com
				




look again , if you go for an 8 hr ticket 48hrs in advance it's $39.00    $69 peak .

Edit . Looked at their calendar you have to go a couple weeks out to get the cheap pricing . Should have jumped on last years season pass deal ..oh well.


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## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

Still can’t check availability at wildcat...


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 10, 2020)

Not sure why not.  I can make a reservation at Wildcat for any day starting with tomorrow 12/11.


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## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Not sure why not.  I can make a reservation at Wildcat for any day starting with tomorrow 12/11.


Yup


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 10, 2020)

Their Facebook page announced 2 days ago that they will opening tomorrow with only intermediate terrain.


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## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> Their Facebook page announced 2 days ago that they will opening tomorrow with only intermediate terrain.


Are talking about Wildcat? I know they are opening but that doesn't solve the issue where you can not see if reservation spots are still available for day tickets for any date at Wildcat but all other places you can.


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## thebigo (Dec 11, 2020)

Are you kidding me vail? Out of all the epic screw ups since they came to town, the shitshow today at wildcat trumps them all.

Nothing above the tomcat had been pushed out, it was unskiable. Solid frozen whales with post holes everywhere and snowguns in the middle of the trail. The upper portion of lynx is rough enough early season, then they go and put a hoard of people on a bullet proof lynx with massive whales and tripod guns in the middle of the trail.

For a company that preaches safety, this was the opposite of safe. Every skier I talked to was one and done. I cannot imagine how pissed you would be if you actually bought a ticket.

I don't know what happened, below the tomcat was excellent, usually it is the opposite early season. Whatever happened the obvious solution was to open with the tomcat. It was spinning when we got there but not open.

To be clear: the coverage, staff, crowd and lift were spectacular but upper lynx should not have been open. I have to think they will push it out tonight and tomorrow morning should be good.


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 11, 2020)

Just got this email.




Within the next few weeks, we will have successfully opened all 34 of our North American resorts from Whistler Blackcomb to Vail to Stowe. So many of our employees across Vail Resorts have spent countless hours helping to prepare for a re-imagined mountain experience this winter, with safety as our collective priority. We developed a new enterprise-wide reservation system to ensure you have the space needed to spread out and stay safe; we implemented extensive safety protocols, including strict face covering and physical distancing requirements; and we debuted free Epic Coverage pass protection to provide a peace of mind during times of great uncertainty. 

But for all we got right, I would be remiss to ignore where we clearly fell short. 

Weighing heavily on my mind is the frustration I have heard from too many pass holders and guests regarding their customer service experience with our call centers. If you are included amongst those who have been unable to reach a customer service agent for help, or encountered long call center or chat wait times, I want you to know we have heard you loud and clear. And we agree. It is unacceptable, and I personally apologize to you for your experience. 

Due to the pandemic, we introduced a lot of changes this season – including pass credits, a reservation system and Epic Coverage – and our call center experienced a more than fourfold increase in the number of guests needing assistance. Despite doubling our staffing and introducing new online chat functionality and other features, our infrastructure was ultimately not designed to handle the volume. It is a huge miss on our part, especially for a company that tries to be an out-front leader within our industry. This is certainly not the fault of our call center agents, who have tried their best to provide great service under difficult circumstances. It is my fault for not ensuring we were better prepared. 

Here’s what I want you to know moving forward. 

We are on it. From implementing new backend systems to leveraging demand forecasting, we are committed to upgrading our customer service operation so it meets the standard of our mission to deliver an Experience of a Lifetime to our guests. I wish I could say it will all improve overnight, but candidly, this is going to take some time to get up and running. 

While we work on this transformation, I want to be transparent that our call center and chat wait times may continue to be longer than normal for the immediate future. Please bear with us, and know that our hard-working team of representatives will get to you as soon as they are able. We have also created several FAQ sites with quick answers to many questions related to reservations, Epic Coverage and resort safety. Make sure you check out the below.​






Reservations FAQs 
Epic Coverage FAQs 
Safety FAQs (resort-specific safety information is available on each resort website) 






There is no doubt that 2020 has been a uniquely challenging year, but the joy of skiing and riding in fresh mountain air and wide-open spaces remains unchanged. I speak on behalf of the entire Vail Resorts team when I say we are grateful for your continued patience, loyalty and support. 
Wishing you all a safe holiday season and a happy New Year. 

*Rob Katz*​


----------



## cdskier (Dec 11, 2020)

It isn't often that a CEO point blank says "this is my fault". Kudos to him for that. Although there are still other areas at Vail that need improvement other than just their call center/customer service area. I'd like to see him address complaints such as the lack of effective local communications and useful information on their snow reports...


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## gittist (Dec 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It isn't often that a CEO point blank says "this is my fault". Kudos to him for that. Although there are still other areas at Vail that need improvement other than just their call center/customer service area. I'd like to see him address complaints such as the lack of effective local communications and useful information on their snow reports...


Agree 100%!


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## Mainer (Dec 11, 2020)

Was at wildcat at 930 today, over a half hour wait to get season passes. Lot was almost full.  At least 50 People in front of us crowded in line to get passes ( filled out online stuff for passes weeks ago but never got sent passes). Can’t boot up in lodge but they don’t mind u crowding to get passes. Top half of mountain wasn’t groomed, calling it intermediate was a stretch(should have said experts only) Poor people that brought their kids were in for a surprise. It is hard to plan for a family when the website doesn’t ever get updated. Basically a WROD, which is fine for November. But for mid December wtf have they been doing. That being said it was a nice to go skiing, with the shutdown probably the longest I’ve been without skiing since I started (30 yrs ago). Tomorrow is going to be fffing scary, good luck. I’m second guessing my pass choice, but with the mt Washington Valley local pass not available this year It is what is. Vail definitely sucks. Hopefully they stay open for late season c lot bbqs but don’t hold your breath. Did I mention vail sucks


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## thebigo (Dec 11, 2020)

I am going to append my earlier post. We went home for lunch and school then saw the tomcat open on website. Headed back up to ride the tomcat, did one lap then daughter wanted to take the quad. Was surprised to see some decent bump lines skied into upper lynx. Some of the bumps were damn near as big as her but she had a blast lapping lynx for the remainder of afternoon. That being said, upper lynx reminded me of the tomcat schuss this afternoon, compete with the grass and rocks between bumps. I would not recommend it this weekend for anyone typically uncomfortable on the schuss. I suspect wildcat and attitash will be completly different places next weekend.

I was pleased to see familiar faces among the staff.


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## abc (Dec 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> It isn't often that a CEO point blank says "this is my fault". Kudos to him for that. Although there are still other areas at Vail that need improvement other than just their call center/customer service area. I'd like to see him address complaints such as the lack of effective local communications and useful information on their snow reports...


Better than NOT accepting responsibility, yes.

But it's his JOB to prevent this from happening in the first place. He clearly failed. He had few options after the fact. He can pretend it was working fine, blame others for the screw up, or accept the responsibility HE screwed up.



Mainer said:


> Was at wildcat at 930 today, over a half hour wait to get season passes.


Guess what? Vail wants to charge to mail new passes to pass holders! Between that and long lines waiting to get new passes printed. I wonder if the CEO had thought of that?

How much of the long wait on call center is a result of other issues? If you make every one of your minor options so complicated, your call center will be even more overwhelmed. People who have REAL issues can't get through and they may NOT buy a pass as a result... penny-wise and pound foolish.


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## urungus (Dec 11, 2020)

Vail Resorts cancels some guest reservations at Breckenridge
					

Additional capacity restrictions and limited open terrain are causing headaches at ski areas across Summit County, leading to canceled reservations at Breckenridge Ski Resort this weekend. Vail Resorts officials announced the cancellations in a letter...




					www.summitdaily.com


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 11, 2020)

abc said:


> Better than NOT accepting responsibility, yes.
> 
> But it's his JOB to prevent this from happening in the first place. He clearly failed. He had few options after the fact. He can pretend it was working fine, blame others for the screw up, or accept the responsibility HE screwed up.
> 
> ...


As to paying to have the pass shipped, I said no, I'm not paying for that, it should be included. To my surprise, there was my pass in the mail box a couple weeks later. No charge. It's certainly a terrible policy in a pandemic year, but at $6, I'm sure they pocketed a few million from those who did pay.


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## abc (Dec 11, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> As to paying to have the pass shipped, I said no, I'm not paying for that, it should be included. To my surprise, there was my pass in the mail box a couple weeks later. No charge. It's certainly a terrible policy in a pandemic year, but at $6, I'm sure they pocketed a few million from those who did pay.


Jeez! Surprise, surprise? A good one though.

What does the envelope looks like? Does it has Vail (or the logo) on it? 

I said no also, thinking it could take a while and I would have gone skiing before that and can get it printed no the mountain. But as it turns out, I haven't gone yet. On the other hand, I have been very slow in opening up my mails except those I expect to receive. Hope I didn't missed it because I don't recognize it!


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## chuckstah (Dec 11, 2020)

abc said:


> Jeez! Surprise, surprise? A good one though.
> 
> What does the envelope looks like? Does it has Vail (or the logo) on it?
> 
> I said no also, thinking it could take a while and I would have gone skiing before that and can get it printed no the mountain. But as it turns out, I haven't gone yet. On the other hand, I have been very slow in opening up my mails except those I expect to receive. Hope I didn't missed it because I don't recognize it!


I don't think is was well marked, but I knew it was likely the pass from the envelope. Can't remember the details, it was a while ago now.


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## catskillman (Dec 11, 2020)

ours looked like junk mail - no envelope - cardboard trifold - taped at the side......


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## thebigo (Dec 11, 2020)

Far be it for me to defend vail but I do not remember any issues with the mailing. Ours showed up shortly after placing the order, at no charge, with good presentation and branded literature.

On the call center issue, I have to assume the child pass issues alone generated a significant volume of calls. There is no northeast child option and there is no under five option for anyone.

There was a woman in an okemo jacket that appeared to be directing staff at the cat today. Does anyone know who the new gm is at the cat?


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## njdiver85 (Dec 11, 2020)

I think it's good that he has admitted customer service sucks balls, but it should have been done a month ago!!!!  Clearly, this was a calculated response to address investors finally catching on to the fact that things at Vail are not so good and this bad press on social media could ultimately affect the bottom line for YEARS!!!!


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 12, 2020)

C'mon VAIL snow reporters....it's 8:05 on a Saturday morning and the Mt Snow "report" shows information last updated on Friday at 7:35 AM.  

How hard is it to provide even the most basic info? Vail????


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## njdiver85 (Dec 12, 2020)

Seriously, the mountain has been open for 12 minutes now and you are still showing yesterday's 7am snow report.  WTF??  Vail sucks more with each passing day!

Apparently they updated the report on Twitter, but the link they provide there also takes you to yesterday's report on the website.  Wow!


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## Edd (Dec 12, 2020)

Best we can do is complain directly. I just sent them feedback on the snow reports. It’s likely to fall on deaf ears but worth a try if enough people do it.

Snow reports should be detailed and released by 6:30am, IMO. Not everyone does this but Wildcat and BW pull it off routinely in a normal year.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 12, 2020)

A couple of observations

The reason why their call center is overwhelmed is twofold

The Epic website blows and is completely not intuitive.  I bet a huge amount of the call volume would be decreased  if the website was better as many of the calls are probably related to website navigation.  

The hours for the call center blow.  8-5 MST?  Really?  They own like a dozen EST resorts with tens of millions of pass holders living here.  Open that center up at 8AM EST at minimum.  Hell, it really should be open 24 hours a day like a Marriott or Hilton if they want to promote themselves as a premium resort operator.


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## abc (Dec 12, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> The hours for the call center blow. 8-5 MST? Really? They own like a dozen EST resorts with tens of millions of pass holders living here. Open that center up at 8AM EST at minimum.


+1

This is AFTER the CEO admitted he’s at fault for the terrible performance of the call center!

This is exactly what I meant, it’s his *job* to *prevent* the problem in the first place!!!


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## Edd (Dec 12, 2020)

On the plus side I just easily cancelled a reservation for Cat and replaced it with Sunapee.


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## thebigo (Dec 12, 2020)

I have found the reservation system surprisingly efficient. There is not a single sold out date in NH. I ski everyday and have been jockeying mountains for my family of four with no issues. I suspect NH crowded is different from vail crowded. 

Attitash today was good, the staff was more pleasant than I recollect, felt like a well run operation.

One complaint is that they really need to get some beginner terrain open. Upper illusion was bumped up shortly after open and not appropriate for beginners or low level intermediate. To my eye, the beginner area on the attitash side appeared to have enough snow. There were actually people bear hugging their children through the bumps on the top of illusion, not to mention kids snowplowing the bumps. One thought today was that a fixed grip quad, opposite the bear quad, on the bottom of illusion would solve a bunch of problems.


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## abc (Dec 12, 2020)

thebigo said:


> There is not a single sold out date in NH. I ski everyday and have been jockeying mountains for my family of four with no issues. I suspect NH crowded is different from vail crowded.


It's still early season here in the east. The first couple of weeks in Colorado wasn't bad either. But now, it's starting to get a bit tight there.

It'll be interesting to see how the Christmas-New Year will be like.


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## machski (Dec 13, 2020)

abc said:


> It's still early season here in the east. The first couple of weeks in Colorado wasn't bad either. But now, it's starting to get a bit tight there.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see how the Christmas-New Year will be like.


Colorado is getting snow this weekend.  Tried getting into Eagle yesterday, no luck after an approach, hold for 30 mins then a second.  Diverted to DEN.  Only issue is it was snowing good in Denver too.  So if that causes powder fever like it does when it snows in the cities in the East, good luck with the reservations.


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## abc (Dec 13, 2020)

This is going to put another monkey wrench to the storm chasers too.

If the traffic and road condition prevents one reaching the mountain originally "reserved", changing plans to hit another mountain may not be an option.

(though on the plus side, it will prevents the herd from diverting to A-basin when they found tunnel closed. Good for AB pass holders)


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## njdiver85 (Dec 14, 2020)

More Vail sucks info:  Lift 11 was down for a while at Mount Snow yesterday, causing big lines for Lift 17.  When will Vail realize that the unreliability of this lift will lead to massive crowding at the base, which in other times, is already a pretty big problem.  Now even more so.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2020)

I might have some insight on why communications suck so bad via snow report, social media, etc in the east.  my buddies friend was just hired as the "senior Manager of Communications and Marking for Mid-Atlantic and Hunter Mountain".  Perhaps they hadn't filled this positions for the VT/NH region yet either.  

I found this strange for 2 reasons.  1) why didn't they hire this position in June or even last year  2) this guy used to work for Troegs brewery as their head marketing guy.   He's an avid skier, so as he told my buddy this a dream job, but you've got to think there were other people in vail or peaks or even in the industry that could've been a better "industry" fit.  I don't know this dude's resume so who knows.  Maybe Vail didn't want someone from the industry for a "fresh look"  

Hopefully it works out for him, as the position he left at Troegs was a good one they are a great employer.

I should kindly ask him to check this thread out to try to backdoor some improvements in communications from Vail!  LOL


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## cdskier (Dec 14, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I might have some insight on why communications suck so bad via snow report, social media, etc in the east.  my buddies friend was just hired as the "senior Manager of Communications and Marking for Mid-Atlantic and Hunter Mountain".  Perhaps they hadn't filled this positions for the VT/NH region yet either.
> 
> I found this strange for 2 reasons.  1) why didn't they hire this position in June or even last year  2) this guy used to work for Troegs brewery as their head marketing guy.   He's an avid skier, so as he told my buddy this a dream job, but you've got to think there were other people in vail or peaks or even in the industry that could've been a better "industry" fit.  I don't know this dude's resume so who knows.  Maybe Vail didn't want someone from the industry for a "fresh look"
> 
> ...


Vail just did a re-org of their marketing department in the Fall. So I'd suspect this position may not have even existed in June or last year. 









						Vail Resorts Cuts More Marketing Jobs, Reorganizes
					

SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., Oct. 1, 2020—Vail Resorts underwent what it called “the final step of a restructuring of our marketing organization.” The m




					www.saminfo.com


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## EPB (Dec 14, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I have found the reservation system surprisingly efficient. There is not a single sold out date in NH. I ski everyday and have been jockeying mountains for my family of four with no issues. I suspect NH crowded is different from vail crowded.
> 
> Attitash today was good, the staff was more pleasant than I recollect, felt like a well run operation.
> 
> One complaint is that they really need to get some beginner terrain open. Upper illusion was bumped up shortly after open and not appropriate for beginners or low level intermediate. To my eye, the beginner area on the attitash side appeared to have enough snow. There were actually people bear hugging their children through the bumps on the top of illusion, not to mention kids snowplowing the bumps. One thought today was that a fixed grip quad, opposite the bear quad, on the bottom of illusion would solve a bunch of problems.


Not sure if this is exactly the spot you're referring to, but there used to be one of those crappy 90s (pre-magic carpet) era handle tows in the spot you may be describing (lift 12s - where the mini terrain park is today). I recall that thing opening twice at most during the time it was there. It started above is the crossover from Bearfoot, so it was essentially impossible to get to for a beginner without braving a ride up the Kachina Triple first. 

If there were a place to start a lift near the base that runs to where moonbeam cuts over to Avenger (or a bit lower), that would probably be the best place for a beginner lift of decent length on the resort layout.  The problem is trying to find a place to put the bottom terminal between the Kachina Triple and Flying Bear.

Good to hear you've been able to get out without much issue.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Vail just did a re-org of their marketing department in the Fall. So I'd suspect this position may not have even existed in June or last year.


ok that makes more sense then.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2020)

Well Vail is SCREWING us in central PA.   They had a tentative opening date of 12/11.  Ma nature was not kind and there wasn't enough cold to blow enough snow.    With the cold this week, and the impending storm there would be more than enough snow to open damn near the entire mountain on Friday the 18th.  I've heard from current employees that they will not be opening because they didn't hire enough people early enough to "ensure  proper operation".  This even as people were volunteering to work multiple shifts this weekend to get open.  There was initially a date of 12/22 thrown around, but management has since reneged and isn't commiting to a date. 

This is completely unacceptable.  We are about to receive a snow storm that will drop at a minimum of 12+ across the region and they aren't going to be able to open.  We'll likely get more snow in this storm than combined with the last 2 winters. 

They have absolutely no idea how to run eastern resorts or understand the eastern ski culture.  I honestly don't understand how they could be so inept.


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## kingslug (Dec 15, 2020)

Mega Corp VS private owned. They just don't care.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2020)

its obvious they don't care.  I actually know several people who asked for refunds.   People can't or aren't willing to travel this year so they should be trying to open areas as soon as they can so that they can generate as much revenue as they can.   with a storm like this reservations would've been sold out all weekend. Likely with lots of day tickets.  Now they've lost that revenue because they couldn't hire people quick enough?    You'd think that would be obvious to the morons in Colorado who only really see $$$$.  

They were supposed to try for the 11th the staff should've been in place by the 4th at the latest...    total amateur hour...


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## kingslug (Dec 15, 2020)

And considering what Covid has done to employment.. How hard can it be to find people who need jobs. 
VAIL=FAIL


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## mbedle (Dec 15, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> More Vail sucks info:  Lift 11 was down for a while at Mount Snow yesterday, causing big lines for Lift 17.  When will Vail realize that the unreliability of this lift will lead to massive crowding at the base, which in other times, is already a pretty big problem.  Now even more so.


I am pretty sure I read on the lift and trail report that it was down on purpose to allow for some snowmaking.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm totally trapped too...  I live 5 miles from my local hill.  So the convenience factor is high.  I drove 2 hours 1 way to Jack Frost last weekend and was like this blows....

It's not the greatest skiing but its by far the closest skiing


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## njdiver85 (Dec 15, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I am pretty sure I read on the lift and trail report that it was down on purpose to allow for some snowmaking.


No, my post was from Sunday.  It was clearly down due to a malfunction.  I was there, in the lift line, when they shut it down for repair.  Just to add further, it was down again today, Tuesday, for additional repair for about an hour.  It's basically held together by duct tape and makeshift parts at this point.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 15, 2020)

kingslug said:


> And considering what Covid has done to employment.. How hard can it be to find people who need jobs.
> VAIL=FAIL


Plenty of people need jobs, but with the extra unemploymet people were getting, there wasn't much incentive to go out and get a minimum wage paying job when you can just sit at home and collect unemployment. and in many cases make the same or more than if you were working.   This was a huge problem accross the board in all industries.   That at least for now is coming to an end.

Vail in previous years also relied heavily on Internationals to staff their resorts, but with there being a ban on H1/H2b workers through the end of the year, they were unable to hire any of these people


----------



## gittist (Dec 15, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Well Vail is SCREWING us in central PA.



Don't forget Gov. Wolf, he's not helping.  Did anyone notice that PANdemic and PANic start with the same three letters?


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## cdskier (Dec 15, 2020)

gittist said:


> Did anyone notice that PANdemic and PANic start with the same three letters?


Pan, Panama, Panorama, Pancreas, Pandora, Panacea, Pants...lots of words start with the same 3 letters...


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 15, 2020)

gittist said:


> Don't forget Gov. Wolf, he's not helping.



He has nothing to do with the Vail's ineptitude.   Their management is causing this unnecessary delay in southcentral PA


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## abc (Dec 15, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Vail in previous years also relied heavily on Internationals to staff their resorts, but with there being a ban on H1/H2b workers through the end of the year, they were unable to hire any of these people


The "international staff" is a systematic ABUSE of the immigration policy! One I was hoping our previous president (which I didn't vote for) would tackle as part of fulfilling his "America for Americans" slogan. But sadly, nothing was done on the policy front. Instead, it took a pandemic to expose the hypocrisy of how big corporation are selling out even our domestic labor opportunities!

But I digress. Back to the depressing picture of travel restrictions...


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## kingslug (Dec 15, 2020)

IMPACTS...Travel could be very difficult to impossible. The hazardous conditions will impact the Thursday morning commute

I like these travel problems..when I'm staying right down the road from the resort.


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## dblskifanatic (Dec 15, 2020)

machski said:


> Colorado is getting snow this weekend.  Tried getting into Eagle yesterday , no luck after an approach, hold for 30 mins then a second.  Diverted to DEN.  Only issue is it was snowing good in Denver too.  So if that causes powder fever like it does when it snows in the cities in the East, good luck with the reservations.


It definitely will cause any conditions fever!  With more terrain opening up - more people will flood 70 and the reservations.  Midweek should still be good though!  Based on what I have seem crowds are already crazy at Breck, Keystone and other resort on weekends.  Those two are snowmaking machines!

Wolf Creek depends on natural and are nearly 100% open and Monarch is the same at 485 acres.  The vial resorts in Colorado are snowmaking machines and are cranking out acres by the day.  There are already over 8000 acres open across the ski areas and that does not include them all.  I do not think reservations for midweek will have an impact but weekends from now trough March probably will.  Then again none of my friends in Colorado have been denied yet.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 15, 2020)

Was at crotched today. This week would probably be a good time to turn the guns back on and resurface/expand terrain before the holiday shitshow right? What was open was blown pretty thick though


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 15, 2020)

The water was looking a little scarce ( Crotched) when I was there yesterday, but the guns are back on, West side. Might be ready for the weekend with a bit a help from natural.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 15, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> More Vail sucks info:  Lift 11 was down for a while at Mount Snow yesterday, causing big lines for Lift 17.  When will Vail realize that the unreliability of this lift will lead to massive crowding at the base, which in other times, is already a pretty big problem.  Now even more so.



I mean the Grand Summit is over 30 years old, has had several re-fits and upgrades, and was never reliable.  Lots of hodge-podged equipment on that thing.  Last re-build was 2011 so it's staying for a while.  

If Mount Snow put in a HSQ on Sunbrook, a HSQ on the North Face, and replaced Canyon with a 6 pack I think the Bluebird would have enough capacity for the front side crowds.  Mount Snow has more than enough terrain and lift capacity it's all just wayyyy to centered on the front side.  Spread people out.


----------



## skiur (Dec 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Plenty of people need jobs, but with the extra unemploymet people were getting, there wasn't much incentive to go out and get a minimum wage paying job when you can just sit at home and collect unemployment. and in many cases make the same or more than if you were working.   This was a huge problem accross the board in all industries.   That at least for now is coming to an end.
> 
> Vail in previous years also relied heavily on Internationals to staff their resorts, but with there being a ban on H1/H2b workers through the end of the year, they were unable to hire any of these people



The large unemployment checks came to an end in August.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> The large unemployment checks came to an end in August.


The extra 600 did, but then states were given access to more $ after that and people were still getting an extra $300 until those funds ran out, and it looks like the latest Covid-relief bill being talked about has those extra benefits in it as well


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## dblskifanatic (Dec 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The extra 600 did, but then states were given access to more $ after that and people were still getting an extra $300 until those funds ran out, and it looks like the latest Covid-relief bill being talked about has those extra benefits in it as well



My wife was unemployed until a few weeks ago but her overall benefits ended at the 26 week mark about a week before she started working again.  We were lucky for her to find employment in the recruiting space during these times but that is a signal to me that businesses who use recruiting staff are eager to get back to business.

I feel bad for those who went past the 26 week mark and congress does not give a shit by playing politics with peoples lives.  I know a lot of business owners that lost everything and people that are still not working and are afraid.

On another note, some of those who are afraid were also some that gambled and did not take a job because it was going to be a lower wage than they eared before.  One example, my wife was made offers that were 50% of what she used to make even after she told them what the salary expectations were.  Once you agree to lower salary then you need to rebuild back to where you were or hold out for the right opportunity.  But some that I knew wanted to take the free ride for a while thinking that things would be better by now.

As far as ski resorts go, not sure that would be enough local or domestic resource to fill all positions that are willing to live in small quarters at minimum wages.


----------



## abc (Dec 16, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> As far as ski resorts go, not sure that would be enough local or domestic resource to fill all positions that are willing to live in small quarters at minimum wages.


If they're local, they won't be "living in small quarters" any more than wherever they've been living at.


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## Edd (Dec 16, 2020)

11:30am and Wildcat’s snow report has no text on the page. Just snowfall numbers and temps.


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## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2020)

abc said:


> If they're local, they won't be "living in small quarters" any more than wherever they've been living at.


That was local (pause) or domestic willing to live in small quarters. Wow you are a difficult one , aren’t you?


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## dblskifanatic (Dec 16, 2020)

I know of many employees at A Basin for example that share apartments that moved to summit county to work in the resort industry and the cost of housing is high.  Vail does provide housing options unlike A Basin.  Many of the people that come to work for ski areas from outside of the US flip flop on the seasons (southern hemisphere during out summer and vise versa) and they fill a void.  Just like many illegals do.


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## skiur (Dec 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The extra 600 did, but then states were given access to more $ after that and people were still getting an extra $300 until those funds ran out, and it looks like the latest Covid-relief bill being talked about has those extra benefits in it as well



The extra $300 lasted for 3 weeks.


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## Edd (Dec 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> The extra $300 lasted for 3 weeks.


The fixation some have on the “free ride” that others are getting never fails to amaze me.


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## dblskifanatic (Dec 16, 2020)

Edd said:


> The fixation some have on the “free ride” that others are getting never fails to amaze me.



I know I used that term but there are many that could not help it and were in a situation  of survival.  A restaurant General Manager was in a position to bring back staff and some did not return because there was more incentive to not work.  I get it!  Two of my boys either loss their job or got furloughed - the one that lost his job was in no hurry to get a job the one that got furloughed had to return back to get less.  He ultimately quit school and work to get a better paying job.  Life plans for both are kind of on hold.

Those who are still trying to find work and have been unemployed for more than 6 months are panicking - maybe not all but many are.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 16, 2020)

Edd said:


> The fixation some have on the “free ride” that others are getting never fails to amaze me.


Oh it's not a free ride.  We'll all be paying for it in one way or another for a very long time, including those recieving the benefits


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## Edd (Dec 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Oh it's not a free ride.  We'll all be paying for it in one way or another for a very long time.


Case in point right here.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Oh it's not a free ride.  We'll all be paying for it in one way or another for a very long time, including those recieving the benefits


Be specific

How will you be paying for it?

I have a line item on my checks for SS and Medicare taxes.  Nothing else but fed and local (which I don't have the latter in nH) on there.  

These needed Covid relief packages are subsidies.  There are many subsidies throughout the economy.  Never gotten a bill for one of them.  You?  

Our tax percentages go up and down a few points as administrations change.  It's all politics for the most part and none of it all that targeted individually towards specific government money prints.


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Be specific
> 
> How will you be paying for it?
> 
> ...


We’ll just borrow more from China


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2020)

can we get back to Vail sucking instead of the mindless dribble about economy and whatever the fuck else you people have been blabbering on about for 2 days?

Seriously most of you must really suck in person since all you do here is argue and try to 1 up each other.

Its "discussion" and I use that word loosely like this that has driven most of the people and traffic from the site.


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## Edd (Dec 17, 2020)

Just arrived at Sunapee with blizzard conditions. That was the worst winter drives I’ve had in years.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *We’ll just borrow more from China*



Yeah, it's simple.   And so long as it doesn't appear as a line-item on your paycheck it's "Free" for us!

That Xi Jinping, what a sucker!


----------



## abc (Dec 17, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> can we get back to Vail sucking instead of the mindless dribble about economy and whatever the fuck else you people have been blabbering on about for 2 days?


I guess not? 

BTW, does Mount Snow never have a web cam at base area? Thought I get a sense of what the lift line looks like... but only see summit cam listed (and NOT working!) 

Don't know if it's being Vail, or just being Mount Snow?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2020)

Vail has been terrible at bring online their cameras.  Its silly


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## abc (Dec 17, 2020)

Also, wasn't there a long running Mount Snow thread? Odd there's zero chatter on that. 

OK, I know it's still early in the season. 

On the other hand, with much of the Christmas party scene not happening, I would have thought more people would start skiing early... 

Reservation for Mount Snow and Okemo are still wide open for the weekend!


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 17, 2020)

abc said:


> Also, wasn't there a long running Mount Snow thread? Odd there's zero chatter on that.
> 
> OK, I know it's still early in the season.
> 
> ...


I set up at Mt Snow Intel thread a couple of weeks ago, but it's been buried as only ~25 posts.  But, I do plan to hit MS tomorrow so I'll add to it as they've gotten quite a bit of snow and supposedly dropped lots of ropes!!


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 17, 2020)

Okemo with supposedly 30 inches of snow, nothing much open for some reason (unprepared) and their snow report directs you to go to Twitter?  C'mon Vail!


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## icecoast1 (Dec 17, 2020)

abc said:


> BTW, does Mount Snow never have a web cam at base area?
> 
> Don't know if it's being Vail, or just being Mount Snow?


There used to be one at the main base and one at Carinthia but they seem to have disappeared.  Probably for the better, no need to give any extra ammunition to the people that want to see the resorts shut down


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## drjeff (Dec 17, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> Okemo with supposedly 30 inches of snow, nothing much open for some reason (unprepared) and their snow report directs you to go to Twitter?  C'mon Vail!


Honestly, can't fully blame Okemo for not being fully staffed today as not too many road crews anywhere can keep roads safe for travel to allow employees to get to work when it's snowing at about 4-6" an hour as it was for a good amount of the early morning and morning hours.

And it's not like with the current COVID situations they could of had a bunch of employees stay over at the resort crammed into numerous hotel rooms.

The snow report delivery method, fully agree with you there!

Not having staff to spin more lifts when this much snow fell this rapidly, gotta give them a safety of employees pass due to weather in this case


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## raisingarizona (Dec 17, 2020)

Is okemo even skiable with 30 inches of fresh? Doubt it.


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## FBGM (Dec 17, 2020)

Surprised Vail didn’t just close Okemo due to “our guests like groomers and no pow, so we will close today to groom”


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## NYDB (Dec 17, 2020)

I haven't been to O in years but I remember the south face had some decent terrain.  Probably closed anyway


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## Not Sure (Dec 17, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Surprised Vail didn’t just close Okemo due to “our guests like groomers and no pow, so we will close today to groom”


Been an awful long time since I've been there but seem to recall not much pitch . Is the place steep enough to even ski Powder?


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## FBGM (Dec 17, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Been an awful long time since I've been there but seem to recall not much pitch . Is the place steep enough to even ski Powder?


Not as flat as Mount Blow but close. Must be a wallow fest there today


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## jg17 (Dec 17, 2020)

Was going to take today off and head to Jack Frost, but bailed due to worries about getting there. They didn't even update the snow report this morning and the website still shows the same trails open as before the storm. Glad I didn't end up wasting a vacation day.

Boulder opens tomorrow, two trails and zero features. Doesn't make much difference to me, but Vail has completely erased the reputation that was built up. What a joke.

Heading up to Hunter on Saturday, at least they got a lot of terrain opened with the storm. But those crowds today, yikes.....


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## abc (Dec 17, 2020)

jg17 said:


> Heading up to Hunter on Saturday, at least they got a lot of terrain opened with the storm. But those crowds today, yikes.....


Today's bad? Wouldn't Saturday be wore? (or maybe not worse, just as bad?) 

How bad anyway? How long a wait on average?


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## Edd (Dec 17, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Been an awful long time since I've been there but seem to recall not much pitch . Is the place steep enough to even ski Powder?


The one day I skied there it was a 17” pow day and I thought it was a blast. Plenty of trails were steep enough for that.


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## Funky_Catskills (Dec 17, 2020)

abc said:


> Today's bad? Wouldn't Saturday be wore? (or maybe not worse, just as bad?)
> 
> How bad anyway? How long a wait on average?



Well - it was a powder day so everybody came out for it. And they weren't ready for it. 
Saturday could be worse.  I'm banking on the Northface lift being open.  Have reservations.


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## chuckstah (Dec 17, 2020)

Edd said:


> Just arrived at Sunapee with blizzard conditions. That was the worst winter drives I’ve had in years.


How was Sunapee?  Rope drops on the glades, or slow on the draw per usual?  Trying to decide between there or Crotched tomorrow.


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## jg17 (Dec 17, 2020)

abc said:


> Today's bad? Wouldn't Saturday be wore? (or maybe not worse, just as bad?)
> 
> How bad anyway? How long a wait on average?


Not sure, I was just looking at the cam. I assume North was quiet per usual, and D will be running this weekend, which I don't think it was today. If North is quiet this weekend, I'll just stay there and be happy enough.

All 3 of my days so far this year have been at mountains with reservations (both Epic and Ikon) and have been pretty busy. Such is the life of a Weekend Warrior, but I'd rather be there in line than not there at all.


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## kingslug (Dec 17, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> Is okemo even skiable with 30 inches of fresh? Doubt it.


yes..I've done it. And you can get going pretty good in some areas.


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## Funky_Catskills (Dec 17, 2020)

jg17 said:


> Not sure, I was just looking at the cam. I assume North was quiet per usual, and D will be running this weekend, which I don't think it was today. If North is quiet this weekend, I'll just stay there and be happy enough.



I can see Overlook from my house.   It was looking pretty hilarious today.   Lot's of powder struggling..


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## kingslug (Dec 17, 2020)

So..Hunter was a blast today. Got first tracks for the first 2 runs and it was deeeeep. F lift did not run all day...North finally opened around 11 I think..thank god. reason...no one to run the lifts. oy. But it was a hoot. yes the lines got long but they packed the 6 pack and it went pretty fast. Once North opened I hung there for monster moguls and poaching. The snow was better than last years blizzard as it was much lighter. I still felt bad for the many who had a difficult time on it. Riding up the lift I saw so many cartwheeling and just keeling over due to the deep. And the dreaded ski submarine..Lose your ski and it disappears. Even had a guy on the lift ask if I could help him figure out how to ski this stuff. I tried but it was wiping him out. I love ripping this stuff on the big bazookas and today was the day for it. Made it to 2:30 and I was cooked. Lots of poaching to be done North side but there were snow snakes everywhere...as I discovered with a double ejection face plant when I hit a sold swath of buried ice on a "natural run" ...
Will be interesting to see if they open more terrain now that the whole place is buried..or will they have no one to run the lifts?


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## kingslug (Dec 17, 2020)

Hunter


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## Edd (Dec 17, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> How was Sunapee?  Rope drops on the glades, or slow on the draw per usual?  Trying to decide between there or Crotched tomorow.


One way down from the summit running the HSQ. It was Upper Blast Off to the ridge trails. People were accessing woods on skiers right. Conditions were incredible, it was a free refills kind of day. If they’d like, they could open a bunch of stuff fast.


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## chuckstah (Dec 17, 2020)

Edd said:


> One way down from the summit running the HSQ. It was Upper Blast Off to the ridge trails. People were accessing woods on skiers right. Conditions were incredible, it was a free refills kind of day. If they’d like, they could open a bunch of stuff fast.


Thanks. I'll probably stick with my Rez at Crotched. It should be mostly open, and the sidecountry woods don't take a lot to be navigable.


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## MidnightJester (Dec 17, 2020)

Been on hold for over a hour so far. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## chuckstah (Dec 17, 2020)

MidnightJester said:


> Been on hold for over a hour so far. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Soon you will be hung up on.


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## thebigo (Dec 17, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> Thanks. I'll probably stick with my Rez at Crotched. It should be mostly open, and the sidecountry woods don't take a lot to be navigable.


Crotched was excellent today, probably my best crotch day in a few years. The entire mountain was skied, solstice early and enchanted forest were the highlights. Someone mentioned the drive and it was one of the more difficult I can remember. They were clearly understaffed but did not matter, everyone was respectful and just generally cool. I don't know how to say this but often you see eastern skiers flail in powder, none of that today, good skiers everywhere. 

I thought sunapee skied small earlier this week, I will be back at the crotch tomorrow, up in the valley this weekend, then give sunapee another shot next week. Today was number seven in a row and I am feeling it. 

Took a bunch of pictures of my daughter in the woods, will try to get some up.


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## thebigo (Dec 17, 2020)

I have had good luck calling local mountain direct during operating hours. Customer service at the mother ship is useless.


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## chuckstah (Dec 17, 2020)

T


thebigo said:


> Crotched was excellent today, probably my best crotch day in a few years. The entire mountain was skied, solstice early and enchanted forest were the highlights. Someone mentioned the drive and it was one of the more difficult I can remember. They were clearly understaffed but did not matter, everyone was respectful and just generally cool. I don't know how to say this but often you see eastern skiers flail in powder, none of that today, good skiers everywhere.
> 
> I thought sunapee skied small earlier this week, I will be back at the crotch tomorrow, up in the valley this weekend, then give sunapee another shot next week. Today was number seven in a row and I am feeling it.
> 
> Took a bunch of pictures of my daughter in the woods, will try to get some up.


Thanks. Sold on it for tomorrow. Figured those two glades at a bare minimum would be filled in nicely.


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## abc (Dec 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> yes the lines got long but they packed the 6 pack and it went pretty fast.


OK, that made up my mind. 

I love powder. But not enough to take a chance of multiple rides on a packed chair, even an open-aired one. The line also looked too crowded. There will be many more powder days to come next season and the many more seasons to come. 

I've cancelled all my weekend reservations. Will try next Monday for some relax cruising on the groomers. Doesn't even need advance reservation it looks like. Who knows, I may even get lucky with a sleeper storm. (I have more vacation days left than work days by year end to use them. So will take days off when condition warrants)

In the mean time, Minnewaska had groomed all their xc trails for skate skiing. Mohonk also said they'll be ready by Saturday the latest. I'm going there for the weekend instead. It's rare we have such early bounty for xc skiing. All of a sudden, I'm spoiled for choices. So crowded Hunter lift line drop to the bottom of the list. I'll wait till it's fully open and hopefully the lines will be less hectic.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *lines got long but they packed the 6 pack *



Vail isnt doing the whole, only family members on a lift thing?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 18, 2020)

They are supposed to be doing that... If people in line decide they want to ride together there isn't much they can do.  Its not the lifties can really be monitoring that.

After much public outcry and I suspect many angry emails and phone calls the southcentral PA resorts are opening this weekend.  My buddy actually got in touch with the Eastern Regional Manager at Vail who had the Local General Manager call him.  The local guy said, he felt "pressured" to open.  WTF

They shouldn't have felt "pressured" to open.  Corporate had slated December 11th as opening day.  That is likely a solid average opening day this far south.  Some years its a little earlier and some years its all they can do to get open by Christmas.  So getting caught with your pants down a week after the target opening date, after we get a pretty major snow storm (definitely more than we had last year) is a fail.    The question is did Corporate handcuff the locals or are they jus inept?   Lots of change over in management since snowtime sold out to Peaks...

Regardless I get to ski locally this weekend, so ultimately I am happy.   Crazy enough Roundtop actually is sold out, which tells me Vail is definitely adjusting reservation limits based on available terrain.


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## Smellytele (Dec 18, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They are supposed to be doing that... If people in line decide they want to ride together there isn't much they can do.  Its not the lifties can really be monitoring that.


Stupid people doing stupid things


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## Edd (Dec 18, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Crotched was excellent today, probably my best crotch day in a few years. The entire mountain was skied, solstice early and enchanted forest were the highlights. Someone mentioned the drive and it was one of the more difficult I can remember. They were clearly understaffed but did not matter, everyone was respectful and just generally cool. I don't know how to say this but often you see eastern skiers flail in powder, none of that today, good skiers everywhere.


I had similar thoughts about people at Sunapee yesterday. Mostly good skiers. With that drive, you had to really want to ski so makes sense.


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## kingslug (Dec 18, 2020)

So now lets see what happens. The resorts are covered so the need to blow snow will be minimal. Lets see what they open up.
Remembering the storm of the century 11 years ago when it dropped over 8 feet in 3 days. Hunter opened the second day when it was still pounding. The storm raged from wednesday to Friday. I was there for all of it. They got the quad running Thursday and more the next day. 10000000 percent open by Friday. Every acre was skiable.
Lets see what Vail can do with 20 to 40 inches.
And apparently they aren't bothering with the West side yet. After 2 feet of snow. OY


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2020)

jg17 said:


> Was going to take today off and head to Jack Frost, but bailed due to worries about getting there. They didn't even update the snow report this morning and the website still shows the same trails open as before the storm. Glad I didn't end up wasting a vacation day.
> 
> Boulder opens tomorrow, two trails and zero features. Doesn't make much difference to me, but Vail has completely erased the reputation that was built up. What a joke.
> 
> Heading up to Hunter on Saturday, at least they got a lot of terrain opened with the storm. But those crowds today, yikes.....


I took the day off with plans on digging out and heading to JF.  I couldn't believe they didn't open any more terrain so I bailed on going, those two shitty runs they had open and a closed lodge made it not worthwhile IMO. I saw on Facebook that a lot of people were ducking ropes, so maybe I should have gone


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 18, 2020)

to be fair when I was at JF on Sunday there was no snow on any other trails other than the 2 T2B routes they had open.  How much did they get and how light was it in the poconos?  Even with all the sleet we got in southcentral PA, it was still a pretty light snow.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2020)

My deck about 5 miles south (crows fly) of BB. Some sleet may have mixed in because it was not easy clearing my driveway.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 18, 2020)

Crotched blew snow all day through the storm, guns were off today.

Does anyone know how the priority days work when they get in the seven day range?

I booked 12/26 as one of my seven priority days. Does the day get added back into the till when week of bookings open or only on the 27th?


----------



## thebigo (Dec 18, 2020)

Leftovers at the crotch this AM:


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## kingslug (Dec 18, 2020)

mmmm...leftovers......


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## da-bum (Dec 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> yes the lines got long but they packed the 6 pack and it went pretty fast.



It seems to be on who is manning the lines on the six pack.  Some let small groups go on their own, and let singles have the option to let another single join in, which frequently, the single would decline.  This would result in lines queuing up, even though there are not that many people for that day.  Then you have others workers that pairs up two with two, three with one, etc.  Always asking if the individual groups don't mind.  You sometimes get people who wants to ride by themselves, more likely out of selfish reason because either they don't have their mask up or spread out as soon as they are on the lift.



abc said:


> I love powder. But not enough to take a chance of multiple rides on a packed chair, even an open-aired one. The line also looked too crowded


If they pack 2 groups in a chair, they allow a minimum of 2 seats in between the groups.  But with some riders, they spread across the chair, effectively leaving one seat or less between groups.  I guess you could be one of those paranoid group that insists on riding the lift on your own, or constantly swing your pole while on the line so nobody could get near you.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Dec 18, 2020)

I just went to the Northface lot to ride at Hunter... It was closed... dammit..
I went to the main lot - it was packed. Felt like a Jimmy Buffett show parking lot with people tailgating.
The person who checked me in told me that the Northface parking is NOT opening this year.. This made me super unhappy as all Vail has done is talk about spreading people out but they funnel people up the 6 pack in a line that has many people not wearing masks... ABD I'm not walking halfway up the hill to get in a single line WAAAAY longer than the other lines.. The northface lot would help spread people out as they promised. I'm seriously thinking about a refund. I'll give it a couple more chances but I will not put myself in a packed line with maskless people.

I give Hunter 2 weeks before it gets shut down...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 18, 2020)

Makes no sense to keep that lot closed...  They obviously don't want to staff it


----------



## njdiver85 (Dec 18, 2020)

Mount Snow today - more Epic Fails . . .

1.  Failure to get Lift 11 open before 10:15am resulted in massive lines for Lift 11 (bubble chair).
2.  Failure to staff the ticket window sufficiently. The line to pick up day tickets was like nothing I've ever seen in 8 years at Mount Snow.  The line extended from the ticket window queue all the way to the back parking lot, and down the hill.  By my guess, about 200 people in line as of 11 AM.  There is no excuse for this given they knew exactly how many day ticket reservations they were going to have.  Thank god I have a season pass and don't need to wait on a line like that.
3.  More on Lift 11 - continued stoppages for what appear to be mechanical issues.


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## Edd (Dec 18, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Leftovers at the crotch this AM: View attachment 49757View attachment 49758View attachment 49759View attachment 49760View attachment 49761View attachment 49762View attachment 49764View attachment 49765View attachment 49766


Damn, that’s awesome.


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## mbedle (Dec 18, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Crotched blew snow all day through the storm, guns were off today.
> 
> Does anyone know how the priority days work when they get in the seven day range?
> 
> I booked 12/26 as one of my seven priority days. Does the day get added back into the till when week of bookings open or only on the 27th?


Not sure exactly what you are asking. You have 7 priority days reserved, if you use one, you can go-ahead and book another priority day. The difference between them and the week of reservations, is that you can reserve priority days at any time in the future. For instance, I have a two week trip set for late January. I reserved the first 7 days as priority. After the first day of skiing, I am going to go ahead and reserve the first day of a second two week trip I have in later February using the available priority day (this will continue after each day that I ski so that by the end of week on my first trip, my second trips first week will be reserved. The second week of each trip will be reserved using week of reservation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2020)

Looks like someone needs $500 million more.....





__





						Vail Resorts, Inc. Announces Commencement of Convertible Senior Notes Offering | Vail Resorts, Inc.
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



					investors.vailresorts.com


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Not sure exactly what you are asking. You have 7 priority days reserved, if you use one, you can go-ahead and book another priority day. The difference between them and the week of reservations, is that you can reserve priority days at any time in the future. For instance, I have a two week trip set for late January. I reserved the first 7 days as priority. After the first day of skiing, I am going to go ahead and reserve the first day of a second two week trip I have in later February using the available priority day (this will continue after each day that I ski so that by the end of week on my first trip, my second trips first week will be reserved. The second week of each trip will be reserved using week of reservation.


So now I know how Snowbird came up with this "7 day" system for its parking.  That, too, is failing.  One can't get parking now on a weekend day until the end of March.  Only Snowbird could screw that up that badly....


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## skiur (Dec 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So now I know how Snowbird came up with this "7 day" system for its parking.  That, too, is failing.  One can't get parking now on a weekend day until the end of March.  Only Snowbird could screw that up that badly....



I've been very happy with the "7 day" parking system at Killington.  Have not had issues reserving any days over a week out.  Including weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2020)

skiur said:


> I've been very happy with the "7 day" parking system at Killington.  Have not had issues reserving any days over a week out.  Including weekend.


That's what I don't get!  I can make a parking reservation for Killington for NEXT WEEK but NOTHING for Snowbird.  The only thing that is different is that John Cumming is running Snowbird while he handed Killington to a qualified manager (after screwing everything up there).


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> *Looks like someone needs $500 million more.....*



Nothing to see here folks.   Just another 1/2 *B*illion dollars.



> _Vail Resorts intends to use the net proceeds from the offering for general corporate purposes._



I predict Vail's going to set the all-time record for most expensive slice of pizza.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nothing to see here folks.   Just another 1/2 *B*illion dollars.


"General corporate purposes."


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> "General corporate purposes."



I hear printer paper prices have gone way up.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Mount Snow today - more Epic Fails . . .
> 
> 1.  Failure to get Lift 11 open before 10:15am resulted in massive lines for Lift 11 (bubble chair).
> 2.  Failure to staff the ticket window sufficiently. The line to pick up day tickets was like nothing I've ever seen in 8 years at Mount Snow.  The line extended from the ticket window queue all the way to the back parking lot, and down the hill.  By my guess, about 200 people in line as of 11 AM.  There is no excuse for this given they knew exactly how many day ticket reservations they were going to have.  Thank god I have a season pass and don't need to wait on a line like that.
> 3.  More on Lift 11 - continued stoppages for what appear to be mechanical issues.


I just got a call from a buddy skiing at Jack Frost, he said they had a line of almost 200 people waiting to get tickets.  He also said the lift lines were getting so long that he left at 11:30 and having basically only three short runs open, it was not worth staying. He drove 3 hours to get there


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## Mainer (Dec 18, 2020)

The triple at attitash was stopping a lot today, definitely concerning. They have blasted a ton of snow, which is nice. Kinda sucks to have take your boots off to drive between attitash and bear peak if you want to ski the 2 open trails. Skiing was nothing special, scratchy for the small amount of people there. Tomorrow should be crowded and icy, unless they can open more terrain


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## jaytrem (Dec 18, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> I just got a call from a buddy skiing at Jack Frost, he said they had a line of almost 200 people waiting to get tickets.  He also said the lift lines were getting so long that he left at 11:30 and having basically only three short runs open, it was not worth staying. He drove 3 hours to get there


It's been way to cold to have so few runs open.  Thread title say it all.


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2020)

Yep... total BS that they don’t have More open, Blue is way ahead of them.
My Buddy did say they were blowing on a lot of the closed runs today.


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## thebigo (Dec 18, 2020)

Mainer said:


> The triple at attitash was stopping a lot today, definitely concerning. They have blasted a ton of snow, which is nice. Kinda sucks to have take your boots off to drive between attitash and bear peak if you want to ski the 2 open trails. Skiing was nothing special, scratchy for the small amount of people there. Tomorrow should be crowded and icy, unless they can open more terrain


How was the beginner terrain looking? My wife is only planning to ski if she can bring our three year old, I would cancel her reservation but I have no way of knowing if there will be any beginner terrain open. The odd thing is that they were blowing the beginner triple weeks ago, cannot imagine there is not enough snow?

As for your other comment, there appears to be a decided preference to blow trails extremely deep over opening more terrain. I am guessing that we will not see resurfacing. The depth on velocity at crotch is ridiculous.


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## MidnightJester (Dec 19, 2020)

So speaking of VAIL and EPIC to help some of the Day trippers and Day ticket riders avoid the ticket window line. You can preload new unused single day ticket onto any other EPIC day ticket from past use. Then I got a refund at the end of the day with my Vermont 4pass with no line at all.


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## jg17 (Dec 19, 2020)

So far this season, 2 days Ikon (both Crystal) and 2 days Epic (1 each Stevens Pass and Hunter). Crystal has been handling everything MUCH better across the board, with Hunter the worst of the 3. The biggest complaint I've heard at Crystal is that people skiing without reservations are causing capacity issues since the passes aren't blocked, just audited and warnings sent at the end of the day if you don't have a reservation. If Ikon/Alterra can figure out their system to block access for people without reservations, they'll be far and away the winner for how this season is being handled.

I get that this season is unlike anything before and the resorts couldn't be reasonably expected to get it perfect on day 1. However, Vail resorts everywhere seem to be having the same issues, while Alterra/Ikon issues seem to differ by resort. Alterra/Ikon resorts seem to at least be listening and updating plans per resort as they go, while Vail complaints seem to be ignored across the board.


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## abc (Dec 19, 2020)

jg17 said:


> However, Vail resorts everywhere seem to be having the same issues, while Alterra/Ikon issues seem to differ by resort. Alterra/Ikon resorts seem to at least be listening and updating plans per resort as they go, while Vail complaints seem to be ignored across the board.


The difference being, Ikon is still operating as a collection of individual resorts. Whilst Vail is enforcing corporate policy to every mountain. 

In this pandemic infused season of this, big behemoth like Vail simply can't react nimbly like individual mountain, which are better at adopting to the changing restrictions and such. Not to mention every states have different pandemic related restriction and policies. Vail's one size fits all approach is the dead's nail.


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## sugarbushskier (Dec 20, 2020)

What am I looking at on the Mt Snow webcams at 9:33 AM on a Sunday morning?  Are they not live or are lifts not running?


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## icecoast1 (Dec 20, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> What am I looking at on the Mt Snow webcams at 9:33 AM on a Sunday morning?  Are they not live or are lifts not running?


All they have now is one pointed at the summit snowstake and top of lift 17.  The ones in the base areas disappeared.

According to Mount Snows twitter page, which thanks to Vail you now must go to for anything remotely close to accurate reports, lift 9 was the only lift with an issue this morning and that is now resolved


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## abc (Dec 20, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> What am I looking at on the Mt Snow webcams at 9:33 AM on a Sunday morning?  Are they not live or are lifts not running?


Doesn't even load for me


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## abc (Dec 20, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> All they have now is one pointed at the summit snowstake and top of lift 17. The ones in the base areas disappeared.


So it's now a Vail policy that all base area cam will be disabled so people can't see the horrendous long lines? 

(and the potentially lack of social distancing from the prying eyes of state authorities?)


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## FBGM (Dec 20, 2020)

abc said:


> So it's now a Vail policy that all base area cam will be disabled so people can't see the horrendous long lines?
> 
> (and the potentially lack of social distancing from the prying eyes of state authorities?)


Yeah, that’s the deal. If NJ Joey can’t see the rain or lines or mud or whatever, they will come. Don’t want to advertise the truth. Only show pics of the good. Smoke and Mirrors. Dirtbags.


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## abc (Dec 20, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Yeah, that’s the deal. If NJ Joey can’t see the rain or lines or mud or whatever, they will come. Don’t want to advertise the truth. Only show pics of the good. Smoke and Mirrors. Dirtbags.


So the dark base area webcam is the new ubiquitous "pack powder" in snow report of the old days now? 

For Vail that is


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## thebigo (Dec 20, 2020)

I would love to hear a good explanation as to why neither wildcat nor attitash can run their carpet the weekend before Christmas. I asked attitash on Saturday whether the carpet would run sunday, the response was 'we hope so'. Somehow crotched and sunapee can run their carpets but attitash and wildcat can't?

There also appeared to be mechanical issues with the triple today. I was hiking the carpet with my 3 year old but it appeared they ran the chair empty a couple times, shut it down, then reloaded.


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## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I would to hear a good explanation as to why neither wildcat nor attitash can run their carpet the weekend before Christmas. I asked attitash on Saturday whether the carpet would run sunday, the response was 'we hope so'. Somehow crotched and sunapee can runtheir carpets but attitash and wildcat can't?
> 
> There also appeared to be mechanical issues with the triple today. I was hiking the carpet with my 3 year old but it appeared they ran the chair empty a couple times, shut it down, then reloaded.


Not shocking on the triple. I have been there when it overheated and actually caught on fire with actual flame shooting out of it not just smoke.


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## xlr8r (Dec 20, 2020)

Attitash Summit Triple is now going to be closed tomorrow for maintenance.  So Attitash is back to really only having Illusion open.  What a joke


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## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Attitash Summit Triple is now going to be closed tomorrow for maintenance.  So Attitash is back to really only having Illusion open.  What a joke


But who cares their western resorts are getting new lifts as is flatkemo.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2020)

Short of a massive turn around, I'll be taking our pass spend to Cannon next season.  Sucks because I love Wildcat and Stowe plus having Crotched fairly close, but the snowmaking efforts and customer service has been so piss poor, Vail doesn't deserve my money.  

Hard to believe Peak ran their resorts so much better


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## Mainer (Dec 20, 2020)

I called attitash around 9 this morning when they tweeted learning center would open. Guest services had no idea what I was talking about when I called. Said they were only running summit triple on attitash.  I said how can u run learning center If only triple was running, she said u had to get to learning area from Summit triple. So we went to wildcat, my kids did great on an overcrowded and icy polecat. I basically did tight turns/snowplow behind my kids to protect them from the terrible skiers going too fast on the limited terrain. Attitash did open the learning triple at some point based on tweets. Left wildcat at 4 not a snow gun running, car temp said 25. Being a weekend skier Sucks now that I have kids  but definitely not as much as vail. Make Attitash  Great  Again


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## thebigo (Dec 20, 2020)

Same here, we are done. Vail has made every effort to inform us that they do not want our money. We sold a rental property on the seacoast last summer with every intention of buying a condo in bartlett. One positive from covid is that we decided to rent for a year due to the overheated real estate market. We will do a seasonal rental at sunday river until vail leaves town, at which time we will return to the valley. Maybe add a pats or gunstock midweek/night pass if there is such a thing.

I don't know that I have any issue with the snowmaking effort, the problem is getting the whales pushed out and open. There are massive whales all over the place on closed trails at attitash and bear. Best guess they are saving them for the holiday week?


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## thebigo (Dec 20, 2020)

Mainer: I may be reading your post incorrectly but were you able to switch your reservation same day?

The learning center triple ran all morning. Guest services at both wildcat and attitash let me know of it would run when I called on Saturday.


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## FBGM (Dec 20, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Same here, we are done. Vail has made every effort to inform us that they do not want our money. We sold a rental property on the seacoast last summer with every intention of buying a condo in bartlett. One positive from covid is that we decided to rent for a year due to the overheated real estate market. We will do a seasonal rental at sunday river until vail leaves town, at which time we will return to the valley. Maybe add a pats or gunstock midweek/night pass if there is such a thing.
> 
> I don't know that I have any issue with the snowmaking effort, the problem is getting the whales pushed out and open. There are massive whales all over the place on closed trails at attitash and bear. Best guess they are saving them for the holiday week?


If I had to guess they don’t have the staff to push them out. No one wants to run a cat at $14/hr for Vail.


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## FBGM (Dec 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Short of a massive turn around, I'll be taking our pass spend to Cannon next season.  Sucks because I love Wildcat and Stowe plus having Crotched fairly close, but the snowmaking efforts and customer service has been so piss poor, Vail doesn't deserve my money.
> 
> Hard to believe Peak ran their resorts so much better


The fact of even suggesting Peak ran something better then Vail just amplifies how horrible Vail is doing life this year. What a junk show.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2020)

FBGM said:


> The fact of even suggesting Peak ran something better then Vail just amplifies how horrible Vail is doing life this year. What a junk show.


I wonder if Vail has plateaued.  It certainly has a lot of resorts and is not having a good year due to COVID as well as bad weather.  It is not an easy business.  ASC tried to hedge their bets by having resorts on both coasts only to have a couple bad seasons in all areas.


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## Mainer (Dec 20, 2020)

I had a reservation at wildcat today, when it’s not sold out it’s probably not a big deal to switch to attitash or vice versa. I saw they were supposed to open learning center at attitash, I called to confirm. Guest services had no idea what I was talking about when I called about it. Told me just summit triple and Abenaki quad were open today. Stayed  with my original reservation at wildcat.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2020)

abc said:


> The difference being, Ikon is still operating as a collection of individual resorts. Whilst Vail is enforcing corporate policy to every mountain.


By and large, yes.  That said, Alterra does own a significant number of their "own" resorts now.  The list that comes to mind includes Stratton, Sugarbush, Tremblant, Steamboat, Solitude, Big Bear, Blue Mountain, Crystal, June, Mammoth, Deer Valley, Winter Park, Squaw/Alpine, and Snowshoe.  As you probably know, Alterra is a new entity created by KSL (owners of Squaw/Alpine) and the Crown Family (Aspen).  They've tag teamed with Boyne, POWDR, and some other independent resorts to make up IKON.  Alterra manages that pass and I imagine takes a pretty good cut of the pass revenue.  But yes, the independent resorts are still independent, but Alterra does have a lot of pull with them.  Case in point--when IKON first came out and resulted in crowding problems, almost all of the independent resorts (Jackson Hole, Alta, Aspen namely) trotted out identical explanations for the crowding to shift blame from IKON.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2020)

Mainer said:


> I had a reservation at wildcat today, when it’s not sold out it’s probably not a big deal to switch to attitash or vice versa. I saw they were supposed to open learning center at attitash, I called to confirm. Guest services had no idea what I was talking about when I called about it. Told me just summit triple and Abenaki quad were open today. Stayed  with my original reservation at wildcat.


Was your customer service agent in a suburb of Denver reading from a computer screen?  Serious question.  I would not be surprised if that was the case.


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## Mainer (Dec 20, 2020)

Definitely a local. They told me they got only 6 inches from the last storm.I said I know that, was skiing on Friday. They had huge whales on all the green trails by learning center on Friday should have been able to groom it open by Sunday. But basically all I want is this:
Good morning skiers and riders. Attitash and bear peak will be open for top to bottom riding today. Be advised early season conditions exist and it will advanced/expert only from the top. If you don’t feel like your ready to shred the gnar, the learning center triple will be open to shake the rust after a lonnnnnng offseason. See u on the slopes. ps don’t forget your mask.
It took me 30 seconds to write that, I’m sure a dedicated vail employee could do the same or hopefully better.


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## thebigo (Dec 20, 2020)

"Dedicated vail employee" reminds me of jumbo shrimp or new and improved.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 20, 2020)

Are we 100% sure all Vail base webcams are down this year, or is this just speculation based on a couple of resorts?

Because if it really is the former, wooo boyyy.....


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Are we 100% sure all Vail base webcams are down this year, or is this just speculation based on a couple of resorts?
> 
> Because if it really is the former, wooo boyyy.....



Hunter's base cam is up on their website right now. Wasn't working on their own website for a bit, but seems to be back now from what I can see.


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## kingslug (Dec 21, 2020)

*Lift tickets for December 25 through January 3 are sold out. 
Gore Mt.
Hunter sold out sat , sun , mon
glad I bought a ski 3 card and an epic pass...too bad I can't use them. I guess everyone is just loading up on dates as fast as they can. 
But after this "event" I don't think I want to be out there. Let them all recover for the week.*


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 21, 2020)

Sadly because of the travel restriction, I'm stuck skiing Jack Frost and Big Boulder. They had two top to bottom runs on opening day, since then they have opened one new run, even though we received over a foot of snow and it has been cold enough to make snow almost 24 hrs a day for over a week. They opened BB this past weekend with just one Park run. Blue Mountain which is further south has made tons of snow and has 20 of 40 runs open with twice the vert.
Defiantly regretting not getting a Pass at Blue, hell I would even rather have one at Camelback.
Wondering about getting a refund, if it's even possible since I really didn't look into the details yet.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 21, 2020)

I think if you've used the pass you are screwed on a refund from Vail.


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## jaytrem (Dec 21, 2020)

Looks like Jack Frost got 2 more open for today.  Was there yesterday, they had 4 top to bottom and the trees were skiable.  I guess they're not into opening trails that could be described as thin cover.  Seemed like plenty of snow everywhere, and all closed trail were tracked out and packed down.  Not sure what going on with East Mountain, the lift has been listed as "On Hold" for at least 3 days, but I'm not sure if they even made snow over there yet.


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## abc (Dec 21, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I think if you've used the pass you are screwed on a refund from Vail.


You think? Did you look? 

There's very limited options for refund. But it's not linked to using the pass or not. 

For everyday you've used the pass, subtract $~70 from the refund, if you qualify for one.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 21, 2020)

I didn't look thanks for clarifying.


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## 2Planker (Dec 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Was your customer service agent in a suburb of Denver reading from a computer screen?  Serious question.  I would not be surprised if that was the case.




BINGO - Wifey called Attitash w/ a simple lift question.
  - 5 mins on HOLD
   - CUT  OFF
-  5 MORE mins on HOLD
-  Gal eventually answers,    "...sorry but I'm in CO, you'd have to call Attitash for a lift question..."

  DONE w/ VAIL, Went to Black Mt, walked up, bought a Tik, had a great day !!!

We also decided NOT to rent our Jackson Place to anyone from VAIL, as we've had 2 seasonal offers from their Corp idiots


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## Katahdin (Dec 21, 2020)

Does anyone know what's up with the Attitash summit triple?  Is that hunk of junk broken again?

From the Attitash Facebook page yesterday: "In preparation for the upcoming holiday week, we will be performing maintenance on the Attitash Triple"


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

Katahdin said:


> Does anyone know what's up with the Attitash summit triple?  Is that hunk of junk broken again?
> 
> From the Attitash Facebook page yesterday: "In preparation for the upcoming holiday week, we will be performing maintenance on the Attitash Triple"


Because NOW is the perfect time to do lift maintenance--right in the middle of ski season.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Because NOW is the perfect time to do lift maintenance--right in the middle of ski season.


No choice when the thing is not working. Maintenance or repair whatever.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> No choice when the thing is not working. Maintenance or repair whatever.


Exactly.


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## Mainer (Dec 21, 2020)

The attitash triple wasn’t running right last Friday, the first day they ran it for the season. It stopped a bunch each ride. Im terrified of getting lift evac’d on the high spot. At least it’s consistent year after year. Should have been replaced instead of putting in that stupid quad years ago.


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## xlr8r (Dec 21, 2020)

The best thing long term might be for that lift to continue to have problems this year.  Vail then will not be able to avoid replacing it in the offseason


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## 2Planker (Dec 21, 2020)

FYI - It might be down ALL NEXT WEEK if their "maintenance" isn't successful....

Peaks didn't care about it, What makes you  think VAIL will..??


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> The best thing long term might be for that lift to continue to have problems this year.  Vail then will not be able to avoid replacing it in the offseason


Well, they are asking for $500 million in capital from investors, so perhaps some is earmarked for Attitash.


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## ss20 (Dec 21, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> The best thing long term might be for that lift to continue to have problems this year.  Vail then will not be able to avoid replacing it in the offseason



Ha I think the same was said about Peaks for 15 years and the later days of ASC before that.  Now it's Vail's turn with that lift that refuses to die.  I doubt they replace it anytime soon.  Being from the late 80s its still pretty new by fixed grip standards.  And at 6,200 feet and nearly 1,900 vertical that's not a small job at all by EC or WC standards.


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## xlr8r (Dec 21, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Ha I think the same was said about Peaks for 15 years and the later days of ASC before that.  Now it's Vail's turn with that lift that refuses to die.  I doubt they replace it anytime soon.  Being from the late 80s its still pretty new by fixed grip standards.  And at 6,200 feet and nearly 1,900 vertical that's not a small job at all by EC or WC standards.


Peak never spent money on brand new lifts at its other mountains though with the exception of the bluebird at Mount Snow.  Besides Bluebird Peak was very cheap when it came to lift infrastructure.  Vail on the other hand buys multiple new lifts every year for its other resorts


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## thebigo (Dec 21, 2020)

This is beyond ridiculous. The triple sat idle for nine months, then ran for three days and is now down several days for maintenance. They sell it as getting ready for the holiday week, name another mountain in the county that shuts down their summit lift for several days prior to holiday weeks.

Based on their website, they are still not running their carpet. 

It is December 21, wildcat and attitash have a grand total of two top to bottom runs open. How many do loon, sunday river or bretton woods have open?


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## icecoast1 (Dec 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, they are asking for $500 million in capital from investors, so perhaps some is earmarked for Attitash.


Most of that is probably to avoid financial insolvency and having to start selling off assets


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Most of that is probably to avoid financial insolvency and having to start selling off assets


Well, that too.    I was trying to be optimistic.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

thebigo said:


> This is beyond ridiculous. The triple sat idle for nine months, then ran for three days and is now down several days for maintenance. They sell it as getting ready for the holiday week, name another mountain in the county that shuts down their summit lift for several days prior to holiday weeks.
> 
> Based on their website, they are still not running their carpet.
> 
> It is December 21, wildcat and attitash have a grand total of two top to bottom runs open. How many do loon, sunday river or bretton woods have open?


I also thought it was weird that the main lodge is "closed" for "preparations for the holidays."  But we are in COVID.

I agree with everyone that the snow reports are pretty bad.  I was able to find some info on Stowe's site, but it took a little bit of digging.  That information is vital--especially for NE ski areas where the weather constantly changes.


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## ss20 (Dec 21, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Peak never spent money on brand new lifts at its other mountains though with the exception of the bluebird at Mount Snow.  Besides Bluebird Peak was very cheap when it came to lift infrastructure.  Vail on the other hand buys multiple new lifts every year for its other resorts



I doubt Attitash is what Vail wanted when they bought Peaks.  They wanted Snow, Hunter, and the PA feeder hills.  I would not count on a new hsq which would cost roughly $6-8m for an unwanted property they got through acquisition.  Attitash is just a lost mid-sized player in a very competitive region.  Their prominence is gone.  In the past 10 years Loon added South Peak, Cannon added Mittersill, Bretton added their T-bar area and a gondola after already being the largest resort in NH, Waterville added that other area (blanking on the name).  Attitash has done nothing and is lost in the shuffle after being one of the top resorts in NH, imo.


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## xlr8r (Dec 21, 2020)

Sunapee has started putting a daily written paragraph on their snow report, covering what's open, what trails have snowmaking, what will open soon, etc.  It seems like all the other eastern resorts you have to go on Facebook or Twitter to get actual snow report info.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I doubt Attitash is what Vail wanted when they bought Peaks.  They wanted Snow, Hunter, and the PA feeder hills.  I would not count on a new hsq which would cost roughly $6-8m for an unwanted property they got through acquisition.  Attitash is just a lost mid-sized player in a very competitive region.  Their prominence is gone.  In the past 10 years Loon added South Peak, Cannon added Mittersill, Bretton added their T-bar area and a gondola after already being the largest resort in NH, Waterville added that other area (blanking on the name).  Attitash has done nothing and is lost in the shuffle after being one of the top resorts in NH, imo.


So for fun--let's say Vail did want to spin off Wildcat, Attitash, and Crotched.  Who would be in the market?  Boyne?  Fairbanks?  Someone else?


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## 2Planker (Dec 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So for fun--let's say Vail did want to spin off Wildcat, Attitash, and Crotched.  Who would be in the market?  Boyne?  Fairbanks?  Someone else?


A bunch of us locals almost bought Wildcat approx 11-12 years ago....


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## xlr8r (Dec 21, 2020)

I think Attitash would be appealing to Fairbank if they can come up with the capital for it.    Les Otten for a short period of time owned Cranmore as well as Attitash and marketed them together.  

Crotched would be right up the Schaefer's alley, but they have taken a lot on in recent years with Catamount, Bousquet and Haystack now run by them.  

Wildcat is much like Burke imo in that it is too big to close, but really is not profitable on its own and would struggle to find a buyer.


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## 2Planker (Dec 21, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> I think Attitash would be appealing to Fairbank if they can come up with the capital for it.    Les Otten for a short period of time owned Cranmore as well as Attitash and marketed them together.
> 
> Crotched would be right up the Schaefer's alley, but they have taken a lot on in recent years with Catamount, Bousquet and Haystack now run by them.
> 
> Wildcat is much like Burke imo in that it is too big to close, but really is not profitable on its own and would struggle to find a buyer.


Correct -  It was LBO that built Bear Peak (1994), while owning Waterville, Loaf, BUsh and KMart at the time before the SEC made him divy them up


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## thebigo (Dec 21, 2020)

I would have to think vail spinning off any resorts would not look good to investors.

It was rumored at the time that LBO was interested but I am fairly certain he never owned crotched. There was the famous crotched full build out map generated around that time. Crotched would appear to be complimentary to the boyne pass, actually a very good fit.

I think attitash and wildcat need to stay together but I have no idea who would be interested. I doubt any of the major players, best guess would be someone currently outside the industry with money to lose. The fate of attitash and wildcat is tied to Rte 16; completely different story if 16 ever got upgraded.

I have been told that attitash has never made money in the winter and Peaks was effectively forced to take attitash with mt snow.


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## drjeff (Dec 21, 2020)

Staffing seems to be a big issue.

If one is buying a day ticket online, you better be ready to wait in likely a lengthy line, to get your ticket for the day. To then get to probably wait in more lines all day to ride a lift, and even go in the lodge.

Grooming seems to be reduced as well.

Don't take your ire out on those working the ticket windows or running the lift lines, it's not their fault that there just simply aren't enough employees. They're trying their best.

The lack of foreign, seasonal employees, at many ski areas, and not just Vail properties, is going to be an issue likely all season that will probably be seen in the most direct fashion via not all lifts running at once.

It is what it is this year, and I'm sure for the next month, any Quebecois skier/rider would be more than happy to deal with this season's shortfalls at Vail properties over what their options are.

Take the time to thank the person on the other side of the ticket window if you need to go there, or the person scanning your pass or bumping the chair for you, or a snowmaker if you see them out on the hill doing a gun run. It's a good thing to do any season. It's probably an especially good thing to do this season as many of the issues people are experiencing have nothing to do with that person trying to do their job so we can all be out on the hill enjoying the sport we all love so deeply


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## ss20 (Dec 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So for fun--let's say Vail did want to spin off Wildcat, Attitash, and Crotched.  Who would be in the market?  Boyne?  Fairbanks?  Someone else?



They'd be a great addition for Boyne.  That'd complete a nearly-perfect collection of East Coast properties for the Boston crowd.  The future is bright for them with big projects coming up at the River, Loaf, and Loon.  I also wouldn't doubt the Berkshire East owner getting into Crotched or maybe even Wildcat.  Seems like there's some deeeeeep pockets there. 

But I do see these places being some of the first to go if Vail sells some of its properties.  Honestly it'd be a smart move to generate some cash.  I doubt investors would see it as Vail being "weak" if they had to sell off 5-10 places they got through m/a to make a quick $20 million.


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 21, 2020)

A friend took these pictures of the ticket line today at Jack Frost.


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## MogulMonsters (Dec 21, 2020)

Does anyone know why Attitash hasn’t opened the snow belt?  Kids are doing lessons, with instructors, walking uphill. There is snow and it seems silly.
I want to get my kids excited about skiing and hiking up to ski down is not fun for three year olds.

With the summit triple down (for who knows how long) shouldn’t they be getting the East west double open?  Stoneybrook was groomed last night (and tonight) and it was closed today....


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## thebigo (Dec 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Don't take your ire out on those working the ticket windows or running the lift lines, it's not their fault that there just simply aren't enough employees. They're trying their best.


I am booked at suanpee tomorrow, will be my twelfth day in a row at an NH vail property. I have been at one of their four nh properties everyday they have been open. I have seen nothing but respect for rules, other skiers and employees. I cannot think of a single confrontational instance. 

I have many times discussed vails operational shortcomings with other skiers; especially when compared with Peaks and the competition. People get it, this is all tenuous and many are making sacrifices to make it happen. People do not get the lack of communication.


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## thebigo (Dec 21, 2020)

MogulMonsters said:


> Does anyone know why Attitash hasn’t opened the snow belt?  Kids are doing lessons, with instructors, walking uphill. There is snow and it seems silly.
> I want to get my kids excited about skiing and hiking up to ski down is not fun for three year olds.


Based on my observations and interaction with staff I believe there to be a mechanical issue that they are unable to rectify. 

Not sure about the belt at wildcat. The belt at crotched was running today.


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## abc (Dec 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The lack of foreign, seasonal employees, at many ski areas, and not just Vail properties, is going to be an issue likely all season that will probably be seen in the most direct fashion via not all lifts running at once.


I didn't noticed too many foreign accents manning the lifts in years past.

In fact, I didn't notice too many foreign accents in the northeast. Period.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2020)

abc said:


> I didn't noticed too many foreign accents manning the lifts in years past.
> 
> In fact, I didn't notice too many foreign accents in the northeast. Period.


I thought you didn’t ski often in the East in the past so...

most areas don’t put them bumping chairs (although smuggs seems to.)


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## abc (Dec 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I thought you didn’t ski often in the East in the past so...
> 
> most areas don’t put them bumping chairs (although smuggs seems to.)


Not "often", but enough to notice if they're in customer facing role. I really didn't notice many at all!

Out west, it's very much in your face. You don't see many employees WITHOUT accents. 

So where are the J-1s employed in the east?


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2020)

abc said:


> Not "often", but enough to notice if they're in customer facing role. I really didn't notice many at all!
> 
> Out west, it's very much in your face. You don't see many employees WITHOUT accents.
> 
> So where are the J-1s employed in the east?


Food, cleaning and I have seen them doing ticket sales.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2020)

abc said:


> Not "often", but enough to notice if they're in customer facing role. I really didn't notice many at all!
> 
> Out west, it's very much in your face. You don't see many employees WITHOUT accents.
> 
> So where are the J-1s employed in the east?



The past few years Sugarbush has definitely had some of the foreign South American workers helping out with the lifts...


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## abc (Dec 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Food, cleaning and I have seen them doing ticket sales.


So, unlike out west, where they're instructors and ski techs, the one in the east are mostly unskilled workers? 

If so, why can't they find local to hire? 

Also unlike out west, housing is not quite as scarce.


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## skimagic (Dec 22, 2020)

I think the labor pool is rather small in VT compared to the labor needs of the big resorts.  Ikillington alone employs over 1,000 in winter. 've seen a mix of locals and J-1s at the larger areas.  

Housing for J-1s is scarce.  A place in Ludlow I used to stay at went to all J-1s a few years back, just packed em iin each room,  was, steady.hassle free income all winter for the inn owner.


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## Edd (Dec 22, 2020)

abc said:


> Not "often", but enough to notice if they're in customer facing role. I really didn't notice many at all!
> 
> Out west, it's very much in your face. You don't see many employees WITHOUT accents.
> 
> So where are the J-1s employed in the east?


They’ve been working at ski areas in the Mt Washington Valley for 15 years at least. My wife, on behalf of Cranmore, took trips to South America two years in a row to do the hiring. That was maybe 2006 and 2007.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 22, 2020)

I fell like I see a lot of J1s in VT when I've been there especially at Killington.  I can't recall last year at Okemo. Heck, they even had some working in southcentral PA the last 2 years for Peaks and Vail.  I have definitely seen them in all places working lifts.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> I think Attitash would be appealing to Fairbank if they can come up with the capital for it.    Les Otten for a short period of time owned Cranmore as well as Attitash and marketed them together.
> 
> Crotched would be right up the Schaefer's alley, but they have taken a lot on in recent years with Catamount, Bousquet and Haystack now run by them.
> 
> Wildcat is much like Burke imo in that it is too big to close, but really is not profitable on its own and would struggle to find a buyer.



IMO, Wildcat could be more profitable than Attitash as a stand alone entity.  The reason being is you can run the place so lean midweek.

You can be at 100% operation with just the quad, snowcat triple and carpet.  The latter two can share staff.   Then it's just one lodge, food court and bar.

Compare that to Attitash where you need really 5-6 lifts, 2 lodges and bars to run.  Easily double the labor and utility requirements.

I think the largest opportunity for revenue growth for Cat is adding a mountain biking program in the summer if the USFS would allow it.  It would make for an outstanding bike park.  2100 vertical with views of Mt Washington?  In a location that draws more visitors during summer than winter?  Hard to beat.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 22, 2020)

abc said:


> If so, why can't they find local to hire?


There arent enough locals to staff the resorts to begin with and the pay, benefits and career paths arent competitive with what you can get outside the ski industry so many dont stick around very long


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## kingslug (Dec 22, 2020)

I guess if you can collect unemployment and its more than you can make standing in the snow loading lifts..then why stand in the snow loading lifts.


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## Mainer (Dec 22, 2020)

Basically all the ticket checkers, half of lifties and food service were j1s at attitash. Wildcat gets their employees from the Berlin area. There is no inexpensive lodging in valley, the j1s used to pack like 20 people in a house. This year every rental has been taken up by the wfh crowd from mass. But attitash should be connected to bear peak right now and the quad open. They had enough snow last week to be able open those last week, and the lifties that were going to run the triple could run quad if there is a staffing shortage. Make Attitash Great Again stickers are going to be a hot stocking stuffer this year.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2020)

Not a Vail mountain, but I'd be curious to hear how Snowshoe is managing their labor needs this winter.  When I was working there in 2002-2003 we had hundreds of International staff members.  There was no chance you could properly staff the place with locals.  Pocahontas County, WV is about 3/4ths the size of Rhode Island with only 8200 residents.  Easily the most sparsely populated place on the East Coast.  They must be so screwed this winter


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

ss20 said:


> They'd be a great addition for Boyne.  That'd complete a nearly-perfect collection of East Coast properties for the Boston crowd.  The future is bright for them with big projects coming up at the River, Loaf, and Loon.  I also wouldn't doubt the Berkshire East owner getting into Crotched or maybe even Wildcat.  Seems like there's some deeeeeep pockets there.
> 
> But I do see these places being some of the first to go if Vail sells some of its properties.  Honestly it'd be a smart move to generate some cash.  I doubt investors would see it as Vail being "weak" if they had to sell off 5-10 places they got through m/a to make a quick $20 million.


Boyne is a dark horse.  They have been getting stronger over the past five years.  They now own their resorts.  Major investments at Big Sky.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

2Planker said:


> A bunch of us locals almost bought Wildcat approx 11-12 years ago....


It was on the market for a long time.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I would have to think vail spinning off any resorts would not look good to investors.
> 
> It was rumored at the time that LBO was interested but I am fairly certain he never owned crotched. There was the famous crotched full build out map generated around that time. Crotched would appear to be complimentary to the boyne pass, actually a very good fit.
> 
> ...


It did seem that in the waning days of ASC that they did pair up resorts for sale--usually a robust one with a money loser.  Sunday River and Sugarloaf.  Snow and Attitash.  Killington and Pico.  From what I can remember, it seemed that Peaks ran out of steam and money when they bought Snow and Attitash.  The only major investments were the Blue Bird at Snow and the major (forced) snowmaking upgrade at Wildcat.

It seemed that Attitash ONCE had a lot of summer business with horse events and other things.  I never stayed at the Hotel at Bear Peak, but I have heard that it was poorly built by Les.  The lodge over there was pretty basic IIRC.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 22, 2020)

Boyne would have a the NH and Maine market locked in.   BUT if Tash and Cat are such "bastard childs"  why would they want them?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Boyne would have a the NH and Maine market locked in.   BUT if Tash and Cat are such "bastard childs"  why would they want them?


I would think that Attitash and Wildcat would cut into their Sunday River market.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2020)

ss20 said:


> They'd be a great addition for Boyne.  That'd complete a nearly-perfect collection of East Coast properties for the Boston crowd.  The future is bright for them with big projects coming up at the River, Loaf, and Loon.  I also wouldn't doubt the Berkshire East owner getting into Crotched or maybe even Wildcat.  Seems like there's some deeeeeep pockets there.
> 
> But I do see these places being some of the first to go if Vail sells some of its properties.  Honestly it'd be a smart move to generate some cash.  I doubt investors would see it as Vail being "weak" if they had to sell off 5-10 places they got through m/a to make a quick $20 million.


You actually believe Boyne is going to complete those projects?

I very much have my doubts.  I remember when they released their "Sugarloaf 2020" vision and webpage.  They completed virtual none of it other than clearing glades on Burnt MTN and replacing two lifts because they literally fell to the ground.

Now they've released "Sugarloaf 2030".  Very skeptical they get to much of it especially now. 

Completing South Peak at Loon has been "coming soon" for about ten years as well.


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## xlr8r (Dec 22, 2020)

Boyne does not need another mountain in Northern New Hampshire.  They already have the Boston destination market covered with Loon SR and Sugarloaf, and buying Wildcat or Attitash would as thetrailboss said only cut into their existing mtns.  Boyne would be better off looking at adding a day trip mountain in Southern NH, or a VT resort to tap into the NYC market.

Boyne plans seem over ambitious to me and they seem to overlook the priority of key improvements that need to be made.  For instance instead of doing the Kanc8, I would think building the beginner area at South Peak and building a permanent Lodge at South Peak would be more important.  Replacing Barker quad at SR is also more important than the Kanc8


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You actually believe Boyne is going to complete those projects?
> 
> I very much have my doubts.  I remember when they released their "Sugarloaf 2020" vision and webpage.  They completed virtual none of it other than clearing glades on Burnt MTN and replacing two lifts because they literally fell to the ground.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have to agree.  When I heard "Sugarloaf 2030" come out I was reminded of Sugarloaf 2020 and how NONE of those items had been completed.  Well, almost none.  On the Storm Skiing Podcast I heard an interview of Sugarloaf's manager.  The host was exuberant over the Sugarloaf 2030 plan.  I wanted to tell the guy to look at what was done for the 2020 Plan.

Sunday River's priority indeed needs to be Barker HSQ.  What is Boyne doing?  Cutting the liftline for the Merrill Hill Development.  https://liftblog.com/2020/12/16/sunday-river-accelerates-merrill-hill-construction/

That tells me that SR needs to generate $$$ on top of what it already does first before any other projects.

I'm not as familiar with Loon having skied there a handful of times and the last time being 13 years ago.  But even then the Gondola was getting tired.  It is a cash cow for sure. 

A lot of the money from SR and Loon is going to Big Sky.  Having checked it out last October, I can tell you that they have TONS of capital invested up there and lots of construction going on with housing developments.  A lot more than you would expect for a place in the middle of nowhere.  It makes me think that they are setting that place up for a sale, but maybe I am wrong.  Brighton has not seen any improvements for almost 10 years.


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## LonghornSkier (Dec 22, 2020)

Trying to Purchase two Buddy Tickets for tomorrow at Sunapee and the website is non-functional... Tells me to call the Colorado number so I do.. Been waiting on a call back for 90 minutes.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

LonghornSkier said:


> Trying to Purchase two Buddy Tickets for tomorrow at Sunapee and the website is non-functional... Tells me to call the Colorado number so I do.. Been waiting on a call back for 90 minutes.


I'm still waiting for a call back from Alterra from three weeks ago


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## thebigo (Dec 22, 2020)

Let us know how you make out with the buddy tickets, was going to purchase one for my brother in law next week.

What exit do most people take for sunapee? GPS tries to send me all sorts of back roads, tried 12a but maybe 12 is better.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2020)

A


thebigo said:


> Let us know how you make out with the buddy tickets, was going to purchase one for my brother in law next week.
> 
> What exit do most people take for sunapee? GPS tries to send me all sorts of back roads, tried 12a but maybe 12 is better.


Are you coming from the north or south on 89?


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## xlr8r (Dec 22, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Let us know how you make out with the buddy tickets, was going to purchase one for my brother in law next week.
> 
> What exit do most people take for sunapee? GPS tries to send me all sorts of back roads, tried 12a but maybe 12 is better.



I always get off at exit 9 coming from the south.  About 20 minutes on 103 from there.


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## Smellytele (Dec 23, 2020)

So wildcat has “2” ways down while Cannon has the whole front 5 open plus the banshees and 4 trails off the top plus upper hard scrabble. Multiple trails in the middle of the mountain plus the park fully built and brookside for beginners and has started snow making at Mittersill.
Vail’s running of wildcat is pitiful.


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## kingslug (Dec 23, 2020)

Does Vail even know where Wildcat is??
Makes you wonder...


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## drjeff (Dec 23, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Does Vail even know where Wildcat is??
> Makes you wonder...



Does Vail even get the destination area that North Conway is? More like how many potential extra Epic Passes they could sell if they shine up Wildcat and Attitash?

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the potential gain in Epic Pass sales from some work on Wildcat/Attitash is greater than what they may realize if/when the rumored expansions to Sunapee happen in the next few years.  They've already got an attraction, the town of North Conway, that attracts plenty of visitors into the region year round, to not try and capitalize on that, via flexing some operations muscle, is a bit surprising


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## Smellytele (Dec 23, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Does Vail even know where New Hampshire is??
> Makes you wonder...


Fixed it


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## xlr8r (Dec 23, 2020)

And now Summit triple is on windhold today


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## kingslug (Dec 23, 2020)

I wish vail would have stayed..in vail


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## snoseek (Dec 23, 2020)

Whoever owns cranmore should have a look at wildcat those two would complement each other nicely.


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## McFatt (Dec 23, 2020)

Lifelong Attitash/Kitty skier here. Reluctantly got my passes (for me and my 2 kids) at the end of last season when the vail credit was offered, and had no problem with the getting the credit and the actual passes in the mail. Yay. Fast forward to the lousy start of this ski season thanks to the weather, combined with the lack of snowmaking/grooming at both Attitash and Wildcat, it's been so frustrating. Did anyone else almost die on opening day at Wildcat? The top of Lynx was just stupid and unsafe. "Advanced terrain" should not include giant post holes and snowmaking equipment sticking halfway into the twisting trails with ungroomed ice whales, and every jerry and their brother flying, falling and survival skiing down at the same time. Woof
Attitash at least had the grooming right over on Illusion, although it took a few more days to get that opened. But the whole scene at the base area is a sh*t show. You cant really access the main lodge, the triple was stop and go, the closed trails full of new whales waiting to be rolled are just teasers, and now we're gonna loose all the snow thanks to the xmas rainstorm. So frustrating. But it's a pandemic, and I have to keep my expectations low, right? Arghhhh
I hope the MWV gets a huge storm sometime soon. Can't control the weather. But I can control where we ski next year, and it's gonna take a lot to get me investing into vail again. For a NH resident, Cannon checks a lot of boxes and seems to have the right thing going this year...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2020)

McFatt said:


> Lifelong Attitash/Kitty skier here. Reluctantly got my passes (for me and my 2 kids) at the end of last season when the vail credit was offered, and had no problem with the getting the credit and the actual passes in the mail. Yay. Fast forward to the lousy start of this ski season thanks to the weather, combined with the lack of snowmaking/grooming at both Attitash and Wildcat, it's been so frustrating. Did anyone else almost die on opening day at Wildcat? The top of Lynx was just stupid and unsafe. "Advanced terrain" should not include giant post holes and snowmaking equipment sticking halfway into the twisting trails with ungroomed ice whales, and every jerry and their brother flying, falling and survival skiing down at the same time. Woof
> Attitash at least had the grooming right over on Illusion, although it took a few more days to get that opened. But the whole scene at the base area is a sh*t show. You cant really access the main lodge, the triple was stop and go, the closed trails full of new whales waiting to be rolled are just teasers, and now we're gonna loose all the snow thanks to the xmas rainstorm. So frustrating. But it's a pandemic, and I have to keep my expectations low, right? Arghhhh
> I hope the MWV gets a huge storm sometime soon. Can't control the weather. But I can control where we ski next year, and it's gonna take a lot to get me investing into vail again. For a NH resident, Cannon checks a lot of boxes and seems to have the right thing going this year...


Wow.  Yikes.


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## thebigo (Dec 23, 2020)

Attitash has posted that thier belt is closed for maintenance. It has not run in nine months, what could they possibly be working on that could not have been completed in the last nine months. No mention of the carpet on the wildcat website. Think about that, three hydroelectric facilities can be overhauled in nine months, a vaccine can be developed studied and manufactured. Meanwhile, vail cannot get a carpet open.

My wife has a six day weekend, the most days off she has had since the word covid entered our lexicon. The plan was to put our four year old in private lessons so she could ski with our eight year old. We have been planning this for months and they cannot get the damned carpet open. They ask you to book lessons ahead but how is that possible if we don't know the lift will run.

This company needs to be put out of business.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Attitash has posted that thier belt is closed for maintenance. It has not run in nine months, what could they possibly be working on that could not have been completed in the last nine months. No mention of the carpet on the wildcat website. Think about that, three hydroelectric facilities can be overhauled in nine months, a vaccine can be developed studied and manufactured. Meanwhile, vail cannot get a carpet open.
> 
> My wife has a six day weekend, the most days off she has had since the word covid entered our lexicon. The plan was to put our four year old in private lessons so she could ski with our eight year old. We have been planning this for months and they cannot get the damned carpet open. They ask you to book lessons ahead but how is that possible if we don't know the lift will run.
> 
> This company needs to be put out of business.


Wow.  

What are you talking about regarding hydroelectric dams?  Any specific ones in NH that were overhauled?


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## 2Planker (Dec 23, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Attitash has posted that thier belt is closed for maintenance. It has not run in nine months, what could they possibly be working on that could not have been completed in the last nine months. No mention of the carpet on the wildcat website. Think about that, three hydroelectric facilities can be overhauled in nine months, a vaccine can be developed studied and manufactured. Meanwhile, vail cannot get a carpet open.
> 
> My wife has a six day weekend, the most days off she has had since the word covid entered our lexicon. The plan was to put our four year old in private lessons so she could ski with our eight year old. We have been planning this for months and they cannot get the damned carpet open. They ask you to book lessons ahead but how is that possible if we don't know the lift will run.
> 
> This company needs to be put out of business.


SIMPLE - There was ZERO maintenance done at Attitash this summer. Nothing, Zippo, Nada

Vail just planned on showing up in October and turning everything ON.


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## kingslug (Dec 23, 2020)

Theres a lot of that going on...I'm a chief maintenance engineer...companies think that things just dont break..if you don't use them. Vail seems a little clueless about this, or doesn't care. Ski resorts have a lot of moving parts..and considering they can't even staff lifts I'm wondering about their maintenance staffing.


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## RichT (Dec 23, 2020)

Let's add this.............Hunter has been very busy (good for them) BUT they have limited lifts going!? How in the hell does that make for good social distancing?? Shit they don't have the North's parking lot open how stupid is that???? F VAIL!!!!!!!


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## kingslug (Dec 23, 2020)

If they open the N parking lot , they have to put a body there with a scanner to make sure you have a reservation. Guess they don't want to pay for that. 
And more lifts= more bodies. They havent touched the West side yet as its like a small mountain unto itself..more grooming, snowmaking, staff the lift, more patrol. 
Why isn't Racers Edge open? That one I don't get..its right there. 
We just have to get through this season..its tough on everyone.


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## Funky_Catskills (Dec 23, 2020)

RichT said:


> Let's add this.............Hunter has been very busy (good for them) BUT they have limited lifts going!? How in the hell does that make for good social distancing?? Shit they don't have the North's parking lot open how stupid is that???? F VAIL!!!!!!!



Was told that they are going to open the North lot soon...  hunter contacted me on chat and we had a long chat.
When I rode the other day there were people in the line asking people to mask up.  Feeling better about all this now.


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## kingslug (Dec 23, 2020)

Cool...


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## thebigo (Dec 23, 2020)

Currently night skiing at crotch and I have zero complaints. Every lift that should be running is running well and every trail that should be open is open. The lights are even on early.


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## Mainer (Dec 23, 2020)

They were grooming the magic carpet today at attitash, after they finished people were walking up for lessons. The triple was running better then when it opened last week. Kinda sucked to go over a freshly groomed tightrope on lift that wasn’t open. The two peaks are still not connected,the same huge mounds of snow are still on a bunch of trails.  I’ve been skiing Attitash since I was a kid with my asc pass, this is by far the worst effort I have ever seen from them. If they want they can blow a shit ton of snow at once. Really really pathetic. Attitash does at least have a snow report now, can’t say the same for wildcat. Poor decision on my part to get an epic pass, won’t be maKing that mistake again. Thanks vail, u suck!!!!


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## Katahdin (Dec 23, 2020)

I can understand why Attitash is waiting to push out the whales with the forecast, but it they better pull it together quickly when the weather recovers.  I agree..."Vail, u suck!"


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## abc (Dec 23, 2020)

Vail = ASC?

(only worse?)


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## ss20 (Dec 23, 2020)

abc said:


> Vail = ASC?
> 
> (only worse?)



Good can of worms to open.  By the end of it you could argue ASC was worse.  Same stuff with cutting ski seasons short and not doing basic maintenance.  I'd argue ASC was worse... they were broken from the beginning and pulled that shit for 7-10 years.  

By all accounts Vail is not letting its "flagships" turn to crap...ASC did that to Killington...same issues these smaller VR places are going through- not running lifts, not making snow, no maintenance, etc.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2020)

I agree for the most part, but I don't believe it was ASC who cut Ks season short.  That was Powdr during the Nyberg years


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## ss20 (Dec 23, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I agree for the most part, but I don't believe it was ASC who cut Ks season short.  That was Powdr during the Nyberg years



It was pretty bad by the 00s.  In the 90s they made June 1 six times, and only once in the 200s (and that was only June 1).  First weekend of May closings the last two years of the ASC reign.  

But don't get me wrong, Nyberg still sucks     Maybe a lot was done behind the scenes maintenance-wise, but I ran out of ammo defending the guy once Mike took over and snowmaking returned in a HUUUUGE way.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2020)

ss20 said:


> It was pretty bad by the 00s.  In the 90s they made June 1 six times, and only once in the 200s (and that was only June 1).  First weekend of May closings the last two years of the ASC reign.
> 
> But don't get me wrong, Nyberg still sucks     Maybe a lot was done behind the scenes maintenance-wise, but I ran out of ammo defending the guy once Mike took over and snowmaking returned in a HUUUUGE way.


ASC cut them back to May.

And I don't think it was Nyberg who was the problem as much as it was John Cumming.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Good can of worms to open.  By the end of it you could argue ASC was worse.  Same stuff with cutting ski seasons short and not doing basic maintenance.  I'd argue ASC was worse... they were broken from the beginning and pulled that shit for 7-10 years.
> 
> By all accounts Vail is not letting its "flagships" turn to crap...ASC did that to Killington...same issues these smaller VR places are going through- not running lifts, not making snow, no maintenance, etc.


Yeah I agree.  ASC was way over leveraged from the get-go.  That said, Vail is larger than ASC ever was.


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## xlr8r (Dec 23, 2020)

The difference between ASC and Vail is that Vail is clearly playing favorites with their mountains.  They seem to be spending lots of money at their top tier resorts, but shafting others.  ASC on the other hand was so in debt they could not spend money anywhere.  The only place ASC spent money on was The Canyons, and that was primarily done to keep expanding into The Colony where they were selling real estate.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 24, 2020)

2Planker said:


> A bunch of us locals almost bought Wildcat approx 11-12 years ago....


Care to elaborate??


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## Newpylong (Dec 24, 2020)

Doesn't surprise me about Attitash sucking wind this year. Their GM used to run the Grand and is clueless. On the Mountain Ops side Vail refused to even offer interviews for critical open positions (Lift, Grooming, and Snowmaking Managers) right up to late Fall. The result was their Snow Surfaces Manager quit and went to Sunday River. He's young and one of the best there is. You order it you eat it I say.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2020)

What the....?


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## Mainer (Dec 24, 2020)

Merry Christmas. Vail sucks but not as much attitash and wildcat will after the rain. Wildcat skied nice today, taking my children down from the top kinda sucked. At this point upper polecat should be open or a mid mountain lift for the intermediate crowd. Middle and lower polecat were creamy, lots of stuff sticking out though. After the rain will just be an extremely icy lynx. Basically vail has made no attempt to open any sort of beginner lower intermediate trails except for the Learning center at attitash which my 4yr old was bored with after a million runs yesterday. So between 2 mountains today they had one run today that was for beginners. Best option for a decent 4 yr old skier today was top of wildcat. She did great, but wtf. 
  As I think about attitash they are basing all their terrain around the summit triple. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket, with a hole in the bottom. Wildcat did finally put something on their snow report, “there may be windholds today” thanks,  how about opening a lower lift like tomcat or bobcat. If you haven’t bought your ticket for vacation week at attitash/wildcat don’t, every area within a hundred miles will be better.


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## McFatt (Dec 25, 2020)

Woof. I’ve got the next 7 days reserved at Attitash. Expectations are low. Hope the mountain biking is still open in NoCo. Get some early morning ski laps and then some afternoon trail rides. Gotta make the best of it this year.


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## Mainer (Dec 26, 2020)

Christmas week is upon us, usually a time to ski with the family. Attitash/ bear peak and wildcat has a total of one trail for beginners. Attitash/bear peak still not connected. Not running the quad, doubles at attitash nor the Abenaki or triple at bear. Magic carpet delayed opening at attitash, not even attempting at wildcat. Not opening the bobcat, tomcat or beginner chair at wildcat. I understand the rain and blowtorch winds destroying the snowpack. But vail is going to be able most of the snowmaking trails today, but they made no snow on any beginner trails. 3 top to bottom over 3 peaks. If they opened anything mid mountain skiers would be able to spread out a little. My family is definitely not skiing this week. 3 WROD over 3 peaks with a million skiers on the same 3 runs. Start lining up the ambulances


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## Edd (Dec 26, 2020)

Does anyone know if the lifts at Attitash have been inspected for the season yet? I’ve heard they’re outsourcing lift maintenance currently. I’d think the lifts would have to be inspected prior to public use but honestly don’t know how it works.


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## thebigo (Dec 26, 2020)

It is ugly. Not sure how to avoid a no-show, when there is nobody scanning. Triple does appear to be running well and plenty of time to catch up on az during 20 min ride.


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## sull1102 (Dec 26, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Boyne does not need another mountain in Northern New Hampshire.  They already have the Boston destination market covered with Loon SR and Sugarloaf, and buying Wildcat or Attitash would as thetrailboss said only cut into their existing mtns.  Boyne would be better off looking at adding a day trip mountain in Southern NH, or a VT resort to tap into the NYC market.
> 
> Boyne plans seem over ambitious to me and they seem to overlook the priority of key improvements that need to be made.  For instance instead of doing the Kanc8, I would think building the beginner area at South Peak and building a permanent Lodge at South Peak would be more important.  Replacing Barker quad at SR is also more important than the Kanc8


The Kanc is a 94 install I think? So she isn't exactly young and definitely has lines almost as bad as the gondi on some weekends. Makes sense to replace it, but I do think it is strange to go for the 8 over the super common bubble 6 that is all the rage these days. 

I would say that the Kanc is the only primary lift that Loon needed to replace in the next 5 years after swapping out the cabins on the gondi last year. 

South Peak is kind of funny just because it has truly sat there for a decade waiting to be completed.


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## drjeff (Dec 26, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> The Kanc is a 94 install I think? So she isn't exactly young and definitely has lines almost as bad as the gondi on some weekends. Makes sense to replace it, but I do think it is strange to go for the 8 over the super common bubble 6 that is all the rage these days.
> 
> I would say that the Kanc is the only primary lift that Loon needed to replace in the next 5 years after swapping out the cabins on the gondi last year.
> 
> South Peak is kind of funny just because it has truly sat there for a decade waiting to be completed.


Going with the bubble 8 over a bubble 6 I think has more to do with the novelty from the marketing perspective to be able to say "first in the East" than it does about the added capacity.

Who knows though, after this season, where most folks aren't riding up in lifts of any kind that are seated/filled to capacity, next season, when we're hopefully back to "normal" operations, folks may see an 8 pack as a deterrent if they like the less packed lift rides this season??


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## gregnye (Dec 26, 2020)

Wildcat has always been and always will be my favorite NH ski area. Really unfortunately that Vail has ruined it. In many ways the mountain is actually more retro now than it used to be. I remember when there was a terrain park on Lower Catapult, when Upper wildcat had snowmaking... etc. Now, Wildcat is just a number on the Vail resort's online map when buying an epic pass.

Thank god Wildcat has a good quality high speed quad and not the 2-person old gondola. Because you'd know that Vail would just leave it be as the main lift and would make no upgrades whatsoever.

I don't have an epic pass. I literally only ski wildcat now when it's a powder day, so once-ish a year. What used to be my family's main place we went has now been turned into just a one-time ticket. Great job Vail you suck.

I just feel bad for you attitash people that have been hoping for a new summit chair.

I really hope Vail dumps Wildcat and someone else buys it. Ideally, it would be nice to get it on a pass with Cannon.


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## Pez (Dec 27, 2020)

Since I got deep back into skiing in '15 I've been wanting to get back to n conway for a ski trip.  Probably not going to until they get some modern reliable lists at attitash.  I guess it might be a while.


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## machski (Dec 27, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> The Kanc is a 94 install I think? So she isn't exactly young and definitely has lines almost as bad as the gondi on some weekends. Makes sense to replace it, but I do think it is strange to go for the 8 over the super common bubble 6 that is all the rage these days.
> 
> I would say that the Kanc is the only primary lift that Loon needed to replace in the next 5 years after swapping out the cabins on the gondi last year.
> 
> South Peak is kind of funny just because it has truly sat there for a decade waiting to be completed.


The Kanc quad is still in great shape, and plans call for it to be overhauled by Dopp and then reused, possibly replacing Seven Brothers after the  Kanc8 goes in.  Loon and Boyne have said they went with the 8 because it allows slightly greater chair spacing in the terminals and loading time than a six does.  Also, this lift is first at Loon as their mountain bike park will swing to be served by the new Kanc8 with dedicated bike carriers just like Big Sky has done with Ramcharger8.

Sunday River does need to change out Barker, but the big difference is since its original install by Yan, they have spent multi millions twice on Pima overhauls and retrofits since new.  Thus, the amortization of that expense is still an ongoing thing.  And they have stated the racing T-Bar has removed some demand pressure from Barker.  Since Merrill Hill's lift has been moved up a year to this summer, I am hopeful Boyne does a double install in 2022 with Sugarloaf's new West Lift and Barker.  Would make sense as a helicopter flies.


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## machski (Dec 27, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Doesn't surprise me about Attitash sucking wind this year. Their GM used to run the Grand and is clueless. On the Mountain Ops side Vail refused to even offer interviews for critical open positions (Lift, Grooming, and Snowmaking Managers) right up to late Fall. The result was their Snow Surfaces Manager quit and went to Sunday River. He's young and one of the best there is. You order it you eat it I say.


Interesting Newpy.  Attending Brian's introduction meeting fall fest weekend at SR, it was interesting to me that he enjoyed and felt at home at Wildcat under Peaks.  But as soon as Vail bought it, he told us he said to himself, time to start looking at other opportunities.  And he was definitely moved and super happy the Boyne/SR opportunity opened for him.


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## jg17 (Dec 27, 2020)

LonghornSkier said:


> Trying to Purchase two Buddy Tickets for tomorrow at Sunapee and the website is non-functional... Tells me to call the Colorado number so I do.. Been waiting on a call back for 90 minutes.


It's back up now, when I spoke to CO last week they didn't know anything about it. Note that it doesn't work like the site says though; you as the passholder need to enter your credit card info and get the ticket emailed to you.


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## Cobbold (Dec 27, 2020)

Alpine zone forum seems to be the anti vail site, whereas pugski forum seems to have the anti alterra stuff,


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## abc (Dec 27, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Alpine zone forum seems to be the anti vail site, whereas pugski forum seems to have the anti alterra stuff,


Alpine zone is a northeast forum. Vail owns a lot more resorts in the northeast.

What you don't see, is anti local mountains on any board.


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## Zand (Dec 27, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> South Peak is kind of funny just because it has truly sat there for a decade waiting to be completed.


I selfishly hope they keep delaying finishing South Peak. I love how simple of a base area it is right now. Park nice and close to the lift with no stairs or other bullshit to have to walk through. Nice basic "lodge" with all you need...cubbies, a bar, a cafeteria, and a ticket window. Then you have some of the best terrain at Loon all to yourself most days while people wait in 20 minute lines for the Gondy and Kanc after parking in the sometimes horror show of a main base area.

While,it's obviously in their best interest to get it completed, I'll enjoy each year that they don't get to it.


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## FBGM (Dec 27, 2020)

Oddly enough the Newschoolers are split on Vail. They are not happy about the park scene getting cut back so much all over and the crowds and big corporate. But still lots of them standing up for Vail and the pass price and options.


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## Edd (Dec 27, 2020)

Zand said:


> I selfishly hope they keep delaying finishing South Peak. I love how simple of a base area it is right now. Park nice and close to the lift with no stairs or other bullshit to have to walk through. Nice basic "lodge" with all you need...cubbies, a bar, a cafeteria, and a ticket window. Then you have some of the best terrain at Loon all to yourself most days while people wait in 20 minute lines for the Gondy and Kanc after parking in the sometimes horror show of a main base area.
> 
> While,it's obviously in their best interest to get it completed, I'll enjoy each year that they don't get to it.


Don’t know if my luck is bad, but whenever I‘ve hit South Peak it has the worst snow on the mountain. I agree about the lodge though.


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## Mainer (Dec 27, 2020)

I know some people who tried to ski attitash. Triple line wrapped around building. Bear peak terrifying, so icy. One and done. If you bought your ticket in advance, That sucks, should have spent that $89 at the moat.  When peaks owned attitash they had billboards all along 16, ski with the big guns. Biggest snowmaking in New Hampshire. Peaks must hsve taken that with themThat how you know vail sucks, because attitash can blow a shit ton of snow and they have 3 runs open for Christmas week. One 200 yard green run open for beginners and families. The other green runs are condo access runs you can only reach from top. When you are a lifelong skier of somewhere and the product turns to shit when the new owners take over. That means the new owners suck which is vail.


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## Zand (Dec 27, 2020)

Edd said:


> Don’t know if my luck is bad, but whenever I‘ve hit South Peak it has the worst snow on the mountain. I agree about the lodge though.


I guess it does have a different aspect than the main mountain, so there are probably days where the snow is worse over there. But when things are similar on both sides, the trails on that side are good, long, and decently steep with no cross cuts. And the glade is fun too, hopefully they cut more of those over there.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2020)

thebigo said:


> It is ugly. Not sure how to avoid a no-show, when there is nobody scanning. Triple does appear to be running well and plenty of time to catch up on az during 20 min ride.


Wow.


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## thebigo (Dec 27, 2020)

It was 1986 today at attitash: wait 30 minutes in line for a fixed grip, twenty minutes on the lift only to ski boilerplate with 6000 jamokes snowplowing every bump they can find.

My four year old did have a spectacular lesson on the carpet, her instructor had infinite patience and is the kind of person keeping our sport alive, too bad vail is so intent on destroying it.

Picture below around 9:00, only shows a portion of the line. Would have needed a video later in the day.


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## Edd (Dec 27, 2020)

thebigo said:


> It was 1986 today at attitash: wait 30 minutes in line for a fixed grip, twenty minutes on the lift only to ski boilerplate with 6000 jamokes snowplowing every bump they can find.
> 
> My four year old did have a spectacular lesson on the carpet, her instructor had infinite patience and is the kind of person keeping our sport alive, too bad vail is so intent on destroying it.
> 
> Picture below around 9:00, only shows a portion of the line. Would have needed a video later in the day.


Never seen the triple that packed. I’m sure COVID isn’t helping.

If Vail unloads Catitash, I’d like to see the two areas severed from each other. I care very much about Wildcat but Attitash, not so much. Certainly, two very different areas that require different approaches.


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## McFatt (Dec 27, 2020)

I skied 4 runs w my kids on Illusion from 9-10:15 this morning, then decided to see what Attitash looked like. Kids were done and went home w Mom. After driving over to the main lot, I reluctantly made my way to the crazy ass line for the triple. I didn’t see the singles line but eventually made my way through the queue. It was a sh*tshow. Made it to the top with only 4-5 stops (people kept falling while getting on the lift). Took a run down Tightrope. It was crap skiing. Went straight to the truck. Done for the day before noon. Went for a drive up to Wildcat this afternoon just to check it out. Still only 1 lift 1 run (Lynx) from the top. Pre-Booked for tomorrow. Gotta get the runs in before 11. Then gonna look for some fatbiking somewhere! Snow n New Years maybe?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2020)

Crotched was fairly decent today considering the Xmas weather.  Very light crowds.  Mainly was skiing Supernova with my son.  They were blowing on Pluto's and Jupiter's.

Need to blow on Milky Way.  That was washed out, so the two sides of the mountain aren't well connected.


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## thebigo (Dec 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Crotched was fairly decent today considering the Xmas weather.  Very light crowds.  Mainly was skiing Supernova with my son.  They were blowing on Pluto's and Jupiter's.
> 
> Need to blow on Milky Way.  That was washed out, so the two sides of the mountain aren't well connected.


Surprised to see Jupiter next in line. Would have guessed big dipper, magnitude or ncc on that side. The turn into milky way is one of the more dangerous spots I can think of in New england. I wear a helmet today because of that turn, also saw an excellent bump coach go into the woods. I am guessing management would prefer to open other parts of the hill first.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 27, 2020)

They were blowing on Big Dipper and NCC as well.  Forgot about those.  Not trails I typically pay attention to.

I would have thought Magnitude before Jupiter's.  Most years Jupiter's is last.


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## kingslug (Dec 27, 2020)

This is why I stayed home..besides Hunter being sold out..just couldn't deal with what I figured it would be like today...so I painted.


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## abc (Dec 27, 2020)

Not that I have a choice as my pass is blackout. 

But this reminds me what holiday has always been like in "normal" years. It's been a very long time since I skied during the holiday period. 

Not to mention my non-skiing family and friends now get to see me for the holidays!


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## ss20 (Dec 27, 2020)

This went from the "Vail Sucks" thread to "Attitash and Wildcat Are the Worst Ski Resorts in Existence and Vail is the Primary Culprit But F*** Peaks Too While We're At It" thread


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## chuckstah (Dec 28, 2020)

At this point it's clear that Vail just wants the resorts to be open during the "core season". They don't care about the customer, or the experience. Each resort just needs to be open to avoid refunds. One ribbon?  Open. No refund. No credit. Next season will have to be almost  free to re-up. Glad I have the Indy pass to hopefully actually get some decent skiing in this season.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

Yep


chuckstah said:


> At this point it's clear that Vail just wants the resorts to be open during the "core season". They don't care about the customer, or the experience. Each resort just needs to be open to avoid refunds. One ribbon?  Open. No refund. No credit. Next season will have to be almost  free to re-up. Glad I have the Indy pass to hopefully actually get some decent skiing in this season.




Yep.  Ill be going with the White Mountain Superpass next season.  Worth the extra $300-400 vs Epic for the product they are delivering in NH.  I can't see why a NH based skiers would give Vail their money again next season after this year's debacle.  I say this as someone who considers Wildcat my overall favorite mountain in the state.  Even if I owned property in the MWV, I'd still go with the Superpass unless Vail proves themselves with not just serious capital investment in NH, but much stronger operations.  No reason Attitash shouldn't be 75% open for Xmas week with the snowmaking system they have.  Cat should be at 50% even in a bad year like this one.  That's 100 acres or so of snowmaking for Cat and 225 for Attitash.


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## snoseek (Dec 28, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  Ill be going with the White Mountain Superpass next season.  Worth the extra $300-400 vs Epic for the product they are delivering in NH.  I can't see why a NH based skiers would give Vail their money again next season after this year's debacle.  I say this as someone who considers Wildcat my overall favorite mountain in the state.  Even if I owned property in the MWV, I'd still go with the Superpass unless Vail proves themselves with not just serious capital investment in NH, but much stronger operations.  No reason Attitash shouldn't be 75% open for Xmas week with the snowmaking system they have.  Cat should be at 50% even in a bad year like this one.  That's 100 acres or so of snowmaking for Cat and 225 for Attitash.


That's a damn sweet pass but god is it expensive! In the end you do got what you pay for.

Either way I'll get cannon vet pass but I think even with the veteran deal epic offers, and its substantial saving, I'm probably out on that and will pick up a midweek pass or an indy add on. It sucks because wildcat is probably my favorite nh mountain and I like the crotched 9-9 access for lazy days


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## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

And now wildcat is closed per website for maintenance on quad. Hoping to open at 9:30 during Christmas vacation week.


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## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

Are they running tomcat in the meantime? It should be running all of Christmas week, but if nothing is running at 9 on Christmas week at a resort. Thread title says it all


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> That's a damn sweet pass but god is it expensive! In the end you do got what you pay for.
> 
> Either way I'll get cannon vet pass but I think even with the veteran deal epic offers, and its substantial saving, I'm probably out on that and will pick up a midweek pass or an indy add on. It sucks because wildcat is probably my favorite nh mountain and I like the crotched 9-9 access for lazy days



I would pay the same price for an Epic pass as the Superpass IF Vail put as much effort into running their NH areas as the Superpass areas are right now. 

I'm basically convinced that Vail is the Walmart of skiing.  They attempt to corner the market with a too cheap to refuse product and care nothing about local ski culture and norms. 

Rob Katz is a freaking tone deaf moron in regards to what Eastern skiers want.  Thing is that even if Vail loses half of their NH pass revenue, that's probably the equivalent of a ten percent decline at Breckenridge.  Noticeable, but not the end of the world.  He'll still get his $2M+ annual stock compensation and as long as those shares still do well on Wall Street, he won't give a shit.  Hell with the money he's made off of Vail, he probably could cash out in the next year or two and say screw it, not worth the effort.


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## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

Mainer said:


> Are they running tomcat in the meantime? It should be running all of Christmas week, but if nothing is running at 9 on Christmas week at a resort. Thread title says it all


It is unbelievable:


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

Any chance wind has something to do with operations?  Cannon is closed today because of wind


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## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

Website says maintenance, is there another 2k vert area on the continent closed during Christmas vacation week for maintenance?


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## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

The problem with the Walmart analogy is that Walmart is open, stocked and staffed on black friday. I cannot think of a worse experience as a customer than vail has provided the Boston North skier this year. It does not make any sense, the metro Boston area is significantly more populous than metro Denver, the four areas on the pass are a perfect mix but they just do not care.

The WMSP is interesting, glad it was mentioned. I was locked in on boyne for next year but the WMSP allows us to stay in the valley with everything the valley has to offer a young family. Also rent the same condo again, not easy to find a condo that's works for two kids and a lab/pit mix.


Edit: cranmore has 19 trails and six lifts open, bretton woods has 5 lifts and around 20 trails open, also sold out at what i assume >$100/day.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2020)

I'm mainly referring to Walmart being sparsely staffed at many locations and often not caring too much about the customer experience because they don't have competition.  You visit one up in say Lincoln, ME and the staffing is pretty poor.  And many locals besmirch them and long for the days of locally owned businesses that cared more about their customers.    But yes at least they operate.


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## xlr8r (Dec 28, 2020)

I am another one looking at other options next year.  As poor as Wildcat and Attitash are being run, and with the VT travel restrictions, it looks like almost all of my skiing this season will consist of day trips to Sunapee and Crotched.  And for the most part Sunapee and Crotched have gotten their sh*t together now after a rough first week, both have about half their terrain open now.  

I have relatives that recently bought a place in the MWV, and would be up there many weekends this year if not for Covid.  But even without Covid there is no reason to go up there for what Attitash and Wildcat are offering so far.  I know I am in the minority but actually like Attitash a lot when it is fully open.  Next year I will be seriously looking at Ikon Base or White Mountain Superpass.  But I also don't want to be the one person that buys another pass if all my relatives buy Epic again.  The real advantage of the Epic over those two is the fact that Sunapee and Crotched are much easier day trip destinations from metro Boston.  But I will probably be pretty bored with Sunapee and Crotched by the end of this season.


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## McFatt (Dec 28, 2020)

Holy Moly, just got done with 3 runs at wildcat. Snow wasn’t too bad, but waaaaaaay too many people for 1 trail. Both my kids got hit by other skiers in the way down. Had to bail for safety concerns. Can’t believe they are not making any snow there right now, it’s only 28degrees. Drove down to Attitash and it was like a zombie apocalypse around the base area. Stupid long lift lines at the summit triple and beginner lifts. We need 3 feet of snow up here ASAP.


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## McFatt (Dec 28, 2020)

McFatt said:


> Holy Moly, just got done with 3 runs at wildcat. Snow wasn’t too bad, but waaaaaaay too many people for 1 trail. Both my kids got hit by other skiers in the way down. Had to bail for safety concerns. Can’t believe they are not making any snow there right now, it’s only 28degrees. Drove down to Attitash and it was like a zombie apocalypse around the base area. Stupid long lift lines at the summit triple and beginner lifts. We need 3 feet of snow up here ASAP.


Oh, and the wildcat lift opened an hour late today because of an “electrical problem”. SMH Vail Sucks


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## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

W


McFatt said:


> Holy Moly, just got done with 3 runs at wildcat. Snow wasn’t too bad, but waaaaaaay too many people for 1 trail. Both my kids got hit by other skiers in the way down. Had to bail for safety concerns. Can’t believe they are not making any snow there right now, it’s only 28degrees. Drove down to Attitash and it was like a zombie apocalypse around the base area. Stupid long lift lines at the summit triple and beginner lifts. We need 3 feet of snow up here ASAP.


wonder if the problems at attitash and wildcat are due to the new gms they hired and they are both over their heads, doesn’t seem like the other vail resorts in the East are having this many  problems, even Hunter has half their lifts and 1/3 of the trails open


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## abc (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> wonder if the problems at attitash and wildcat are due to the new gms they hired and they are both over their heads


IF that being the reason, one wonders what Vail was using as a criteria in hiring new GMs. The ones they can pay the least?


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## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

I was thinking of a good analogy for those bitching about attitash/wildcat like myself for those that don’t understand the vail sucks. Were you ever good friends with a smart, sexy girl that was a lot of fun. Then she starts dating a douchebag that treats her like shit. It makes you sad to see, She could have done so much better. Now when you see her at the supermarket she has a sad dejected look on her face. It sucks.
   That just happened to my beloved Mountains I have skiing on since I was a little kid. It makEs you sick to ur stomach to see


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## icecoast1 (Dec 28, 2020)

abc said:


> IF that being the reason, one wonders what Vail was using as a criteria in hiring new GMs. The ones they can pay the least?


Probably the same as most other corporate positions, the ones who kiss the most ass, not always the most qualified


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## snoseek (Dec 28, 2020)

After seeing first hand how things went after the kirkwood takeover none of this surprises me at all. Also if you're looking for improvements what have they done on mountain at kirkwood over the past decade?


----------



## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

I’m not looking for improvements, at least one beginner/intermediate trail at wildcat for family Christmas vacation. More then one trail open On the whole mtn during Christmas week. At attitash connecting the two mountains so you can ski the one trail on each side without taking boots off would be nice. Having more then one green trail That’s 200 yards open for family Christmas week. They have great snowmaking at attitash This whole thing is bizarre. Every other mountain around has 4 times the amount open.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> After seeing first hand how things went after the kirkwood takeover none of this surprises me at all. Also if you're looking for improvements what have they done on mountain at kirkwood over the past decade?


Other ski blogs, Kirkwood skiers don’t want any changes at Kirkwood, and you want the place modernize, for the record never been to Kirkwood have no idea what’s it like, just interesting how some want Change and others don’t, it’s sure is interesting watching that dynamic at play.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

Mainer said:


> I was thinking of a good analogy for those bitching about attitash/wildcat like myself for those that don’t understand the vail sucks. Were you ever good friends with a smart, sexy girl that was a lot of fun. Then she starts dating a douchebag that treats her like shit. It makes you sad to see, She could have done so much better. Now when you see her at the supermarket she has a sad dejected look on her face. It sucks.
> That just happened to my beloved Mountains I have skiing on since I was a little kid. It makEs you sick to ur stomach to see


Huh?  That example seems a little too specific....


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

How is Stowe doing these days?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> After seeing first hand how things went after the kirkwood takeover none of this surprises me at all. Also if you're looking for improvements what have they done on mountain at kirkwood over the past decade?


I don’t think there will be any improvements at any Vail properties this summer.  I think they are in survival mode.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Probably the same as most other corporate positions, the ones who kiss the most ass, not always the most qualified


My guess with all the peak resort additions they ran out of talent that was ready to run a ski area, and it’s showing up in attitash and wildcat.  Wonder if they should have kept the Mt snow gm and sent him to attitash/ wildcat?  When vail took over peak resorts almost immediately they bounced 2 or 3 gms at the Midwestern resorts, my guess it’s the vail way or the highway


----------



## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

I did learn that if attitash/wildcat aren’t sold out with what they have open now, I am never skiing if it is ever sold out.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

The


thetrailboss said:


> How is Stowe doing these days?


their website says 11/12 lifts open, 28 percent of terrain open


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> My guess with all the peak resort additions they ran out of talent that was ready to run a ski area, and it’s showing up in attitash and wildcat.  Wonder if they should have kept the Mt snow gm and sent him to attitash/ wildcat?  When vail took over peak resorts almost immediately they bounced 2 or 3 gms at the Midwestern resorts, my guess it’s the vail way or the highway


Maybe Rob Katz can explain what happened on the next episode of his ego-stroking podcast.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> The
> 
> their website says 11/12 lifts open, 28 percent of terrain open


That doesn’t seem too bad all things considered


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I don’t think there will be any improvements at any Vail properties this summer.  I think they are in survival mode.


No one will do major improvements this summer, it will take five years to recover from this, although in their last earnings conference call, they made it sound like they been through this in 08 and expanded after that and if they get a call would consider expanding again, depending on the ski resort, my gut tells me alterra is in worse shape since they are what 3 years old, all that debt, if they survive vail will also, along with boyne and powder.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> No one will do major improvements this summer, it will take five years to recover from this, although in their last earnings conference call, they made it sound like they been through this in 08 and expanded after that and if they get a call would consider expanding again, depending on the ski resort, my gut tells me alterra is in worse shape since they are what 3 years old, all that debt, if they survive vail will also, along with boyne and powder.


This is worse than 2008.  Pandemic stretching over two seasons AND bad weather on both coasts. 

Alterra is private so we have no idea.  That said, they despite their crazy Ikon sales, they did not have cash to fix their snowmaking system at Solitude in a timely fashion and are WAY behind there in terms of terrain.  

And I hate to see anyone go out of business, but it would not hurt my feelings of Ikon disappeared.  It is ruining the ski experience out here.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 28, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> This is worse than 2008.  Pandemic stretching over two seasons AND bad weather on both coasts.


They also took on a boatload of debt going into all of this by buying Peak last fall.  Were they in a similar financial position going into 08? It may be an apples to oranges comparison and trying to put lipstick on a pig on Vails part... this could be the perfect storm for them


----------



## FBGM (Dec 28, 2020)

Mainer said:


> I was thinking of a good analogy for those bitching about attitash/wildcat like myself for those that don’t understand the vail sucks. Were you ever good friends with a smart, sexy girl that was a lot of fun. Then she starts dating a douchebag that treats her like shit. It makes you sad to see, She could have done so much better. Now when you see her at the supermarket she has a sad dejected look on her face. It sucks.
> That just happened to my beloved Mountains I have skiing on since I was a little kid. It makEs you sick to ur stomach to see


If that said girl is looking to make some mistakes to make said guy jealous....heyyy babbyyyy


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> They also took on a boatload of debt going into all of this by buying Peak last fall.  Were they in a similar financial position going into 08? It may be an apples to oranges comparison and trying to put lipstick on a pig on Vails part... this could be the perfect storm for them


They are looking to raise $500 mill in capital for general operations.  What does that tell you?


----------



## kingslug (Dec 28, 2020)

And skier visits in 2017 hit almost 60 million..Best in a loooong time..but this pandemic wiped out any good that did.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Other ski blogs, Kirkwood skiers don’t want any changes at Kirkwood, and you want the place modernize, for the record never been to Kirkwood have no idea what’s it like, just interesting how some want Change and others don’t, it’s sure is interesting watching that dynamic at play.


Prices went up, ski season drastically shortened especially in the spring and long time locals were sent packing. Meanwhile the lift situation needs to be addressed. Coming to a mountain near you. Yeah they suck hard outside of the cash cows.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Prices went up, ski season drastically shortened especially in the spring and long time locals were sent packing. Meanwhile the lift situation needs to be addressed. Coming to a mountain near you. Yeah they suck hard outside of the cash cows.


Same thing at Park City....


----------



## FBGM (Dec 28, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Same thing at Park City....


The people of Park City hate Vail. Well, those that didn’t just move here from LA or Texas. We have hated Vail since day 1.


----------



## abc (Dec 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Prices went up, ski season drastically shortened especially in the spring and long time locals were sent packing. Meanwhile the lift situation needs to be addressed. Coming to a mountain near you. Yeah they suck hard outside of the cash cows.





thetrailboss said:


> Same thing at Park City....


No way you can say Park City is "outside of the cash cow"!

PC is one of their cash cows!


----------



## RichT (Dec 28, 2020)

My turn to vent, 
Skied at Hunter today, super long lift lines, like it was the 80's again! F Lift not spinning, maybe 1/3 open but lift ticket sales are like it was 3/4 open!!! No F but they open the Northside lift for ONE trail. 
OK I did see later that the F had a mechanical problem, how did I know? By seeing mechanics working on the tower, not a single tweet, text or email! 
NO COMMUNICATION what so ever! Even though when you make a reservation there's options for text and email msg. Wouldn't be great to get a snow report each morning sent to me, like years past? Gee what would that take a click of a mouse? 
So many new faces operating the mountain now, where did the employees that worked there for years go? (Bellayre?) Why?

HEY VAIL YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

FBGM said:


> The people of Park City hate Vail. Well, those that didn’t just move here from LA or Texas. We have hated Vail since day 1.


Yep.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

abc said:


> No way you can say Park City is "outside of the cash cow"!
> 
> PC is one of their cash cows!


PCMR is a cash cow, but man they are hurting this year in terms of terrain and snow.....

16% of terrain is open.  



			https://www.parkcitymountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/terrain-and-lift-status.aspx


----------



## snoseek (Dec 28, 2020)

abc said:


> No way you can say Park City is "outside of the cash cow"!
> 
> PC is one of their cash cows!


You're right I was mostly comparing to vermont areas which seem to be running better overall. 

Maybe nh areas or at least wildcat will be the first to sell off if it ever comes to that.


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 28, 2020)

I skied Breckenridge yesterday, it didn't suck.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

Just checked solitud, they are 52 out of 82, what is that 60 percent, park city is 16 percent, man never seen bad snow conditions coast to coast


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

Even stevens pass ski Mtn is only 70 percent open


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Just checked solitud, they are 52 out of 82, what is that 60 percent, park city is 16 percent, man never seen bad snow conditions coast to coast


Solitude has that much open?  I drove by Saturday and it was pretty grim.


----------



## Tonyr (Dec 28, 2020)

I'm at Beaver Creek right now it's pretty crowded here including the hotel I'm in and the surrounding restaurants. Vail is certainly not having a banner year this season but it may not be as bad as you'd think. They had one of their best summers ever demand wise.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

My 


Tonyr said:


> I'm at Beaver Creek right now it's pretty crowded here including the hotel I'm in and the surrounding restaurants. Vail is certainly not having a banner year this season but it may not be as bad as you'd think. They had one of their best summers ever demand wise.


My guess vail is doing ok on everything but the food and beverage at the lodges, ie lunchtime, beers after skiing,


----------



## FBGM (Dec 28, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Just checked solitud, they are 52 out of 82, what is that 60 percent, park city is 16 percent, man never seen bad snow conditions coast to coast


I bet 50% of what is open at Soli is damn thin. Like rock skis thin. 

Alta last week was actually fine. They had like 60% open and most open was decent. 

PC has got half, if that of snow of those two I mentioned. Pretty much groomers only right now. 

We keep getting snow, but just little storms. 3” here. 4” there. Biggest snowfall at my house this year is 9”. I have maybe 2’ base in my backyard. This time last year and normal years past I was digging out my mailbox just to be able to get mail...


----------



## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

Shit, you miss a bunch while skiing one run per hour at attitash.

Someone mentioned trashing Peaks, while they certainly did not build lifts, they blew snow. Peaks had the exact same terrain open at wildcat two years ago on October 27 that vail has managed to open on December 27. It wasn't natural in 2018, all man made.

Beginner lessons at attitash are sold out. Kids are waiting several minutes just to load the carpet. Lessons are one area of variable revenue this year on which you would think they could capitalize, I damn well know instructors are not getting paid $95/hr. How the hell does it make sense for the carpet at wildcat to be closed? Seems like the lesson revenue alone would pay for the single gun and groomer pass to get it open.

Attitash has blown the condo connecting trails before getting the Yankee online. They may have a contract with the association stipulating an open date for the connecting trails, I don't know but it is a bad look. Speaking of the yankee, is there another high speed lift on the east coast that has yet to run this year?

Attitash blew whales under the double double THREE weeks ago. They never finished the terrain or pushed out the whales. They were left to rot, picture below. How does that make any sense given the apparently limited snowmaking resources. Maybe there was mechanical failure?

Morning star and snow dancer were also buried weeks ago, looks like they have been pushed out but they have yet to be skied. They desperately need to spread the crowd, the lower part of northwest passage is treacherous by about 10, there were people taking their skis off today and walking down in their boots.

I fully expected to see picnic tables and outdoor grills offering beer, soda, wine, hamburgers and hotdogs. There is nothing, not sure if they are doing anything elsewhere. Turning the parking lot into a Jimmy buffet concert seems like a massive chunk or revenue left on the table not to mention the liability.

Someone mentioned the gm at attitash being new. To my knowledge the current gm has been in place for a number of years but i could be wrong.

Honestly, if I could dream up a viable motive, the thought that local management is sabotaging the season crossed my mind. None of it makes any sense.


----------



## zyk (Dec 28, 2020)

RichT said:


> My turn to vent,
> Skied at Hunter today, super long lift lines, like it was the 80's again! F Lift not spinning, maybe 1/3 open but lift ticket sales are like it was 3/4 open!!! No F but they open the Northside lift for ONE trail.
> OK I did see later that the F had a mechanical problem, how did I know? By seeing mechanics working on the tower, not a single tweet, text or email!
> NO COMMUNICATION what so ever! Even though when you make a reservation there's options for text and email msg. Wouldn't be great to get a snow report each morning sent to me, like years past? Gee what would that take a click of a mouse?
> ...



Hunter should be a cash cow in the east for Vail this year.  Due to travel restrictions the Catskills are the first stop for downstate NY without restrictions.  They should be blowing snow every chance they get like the pre Peak when the Slutsky family owned it.  Hoping the employee crew didn't get replaced and the locals haven't left.


----------



## abc (Dec 28, 2020)

zyk said:


> Hunter should be a cash cow in the east for Vail this year.  Due to travel restrictions the Catskills are the first stop for downstate NY without restrictions.  They should be blowing snow every chance they get like the pre Peak when the Slutsky family owned it.  Hoping the employee crew didn't get replaced and the locals haven't left.


I'm not sure there's much cash to be made this year. 

The pass money is already in the bank. There's very little food and beverages opportunities. Day tickets? I don't know how much they've allocated. Again, either people had already paid, or they're not making a last minute decision to go up to Hunter! 

Frankly, with reduced capacity, there's limited potential for cash income. They did a great job in talking up the passes. The number speaks for them. From here on out, operating is losing money. So they're likely just limit it as much as possible! 

I confess I bought my pass counting on snow making. After all, if there's natural snow on the ground, I'd likely be cross country skiing instead! So yes, I'm disappointed that they made almost no effort to make snow. 

Vail sucks. And I understand WHY they *choose* to suck so much! 

It remains to be seen how the Alterra mountains are doing. If there's a big disparity between Vail mountains and Alterra mountains, it WILL lead to large number of Epic pass holders going over to Alterra next season.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 28, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Shit, you miss a bunch while skiing one run per hour at attitash.
> 
> Someone mentioned trashing Peaks, while they certainly did not build lifts, they blew snow. Peaks had the exact same terrain open at wildcat two years ago on October 27 that vail has managed to open on December 27. It wasn't natural in 2018, all man made.
> 
> ...


 I believe the long term gm retired, sept/October, should rehire the old gm from Mt snow and send him up their, before skiers attack the new gm, who appears is in over his head.  Listened to a vail podcast, with a guy who worked at park city before the take over, they sent him to be in charge of Midwest mtns, he talked about the advice Blaise carrington offered, lots of times without a advisor like Blaise carrington, you can find yourself in the deep end of the pool quickly, which the gms of attitash and wildcat appear to be.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9700-greg-gavrilets-named-attitash-gm Its all makes sense now. This guy started on nov 1, probably has never even been to N.H. before. Poor kid is over his head. That is why there has been all these weird choices on terrain opening.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 28, 2020)

Do you take feedback on social media and use it to determine what you build on the hill?

Absolutely. I always talk to the riders and interact on social media to get feedback on which features and events are successful and how to improve. Not every proposed setup is possible to build, but you get a great feel for what people want to ride. Watching what features get used in the park is also important, but social media provides immediate feedback
This was From an interview the new gm gave, I hope he reads this site


----------



## FBGM (Dec 28, 2020)

Mainer said:


> https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9700-greg-gavrilets-named-attitash-gm Its all makes sense now. This guy started on nov 1, probably has never even been to N.H. before. Poor kid is over his head. That is why there has been all these weird choices on terrain opening.


Hahahaha. How’s your MBA working out now? I’m sure your experience in Tennessee is great....didn’t know they had skiing there. Vail is loving it, I’m sure they are paying him like $75k. But he is deff getting his dick kicked in then fired.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 28, 2020)

Good find, looks like this dude is running wildcat. He has a doctor of law from Rutgers and was in charge of risk management for vail. We are screwed.



			https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-klevans-a85bb982
		










						Vail Resorts Names Four New Resort GMs
					

SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., May 20, 2020—Four of Vail Resorts’ properties in the East and Midwest will have new general managers starting as soon as Ju




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2020)

Crazy that these “GM’s” have very little experience in the ski industry. Health and safety for lodging? Retail manager? Are they nuts? Who is doing this hiring - A Walmart manger of the audio and video department? The person doing the hiring should be fired!


----------



## 180 (Dec 28, 2020)

In Hunter's defence. The weather has sucked.  Barely get to string and snowmaking days together.  On Saturday/ Sunday they made as much as they could just to recover from the tremendous rains. They barely survived those rains.  Yesterday, I skied uncrowded Overlook with beautiful snowmaking all afternoon in the sun.  Yes, the sun gets there at 2pm.  On Saturday, mainline was beautiful packed powder moguls.  

They certainly have their hands full with many other issues, but snowmaking is not one of them.  Lets hope we get Zephyr soon.  That is the game changer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2020)

FBGM said:


> I bet 50% of what is open at Soli is damn thin. Like rock skis thin.
> 
> Alta last week was actually fine. They had like 60% open and most open was decent.
> 
> ...


I just got done another night at Brighton.  Holiday week, 15 degrees, and there is NOTHING in terms of snowmaking or grooming going on at Solitude.  Nothing.  For a company that has so much money you would expect them to be doing SOMETHING.  Shows where their priorities are.

I talked to one guy who visited Solitude this week and said that the liftlines were 40 minutes long.  It was not even five years ago that they never came close to that.  Looks like Solitude has all grown up and gone corporate--gone are the powder days with few folks, good snowmaking and grooming, and free parking.  Hello shit snowmaking, 40 minute lines, and $20 parking.  Not to mention that old Subies and old VW vans have given way to shiny new Sprinter Camper vans.  

If I owned one of the condos at the Solitude Village I would be ripshit.  Talk about really effing it up.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> I believe the long term gm retired, sept/October, should rehire the old gm from Mt snow and send him up their, before skiers attack the new gm, who appears is in over his head.  Listened to a vail podcast, with a guy who worked at park city before the take over, they sent him to be in charge of Midwest mtns, he talked about the advice Blaise carrington offered, lots of times without a advisor like Blaise carrington, you can find yourself in the deep end of the pool quickly, which the gms of attitash and wildcat appear to be.


Wildcat GM (Brian H) jumped ship and moved over to SR


----------



## njdiver85 (Dec 29, 2020)

This could be the understatement of the year!!!  From the Mount Snow report for this morning . . .

"Our reporting system is currently experiencing technical difficulties. Lift and trail statuses may be temporarily inaccurate."


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 29, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I just got done another night at Brighton.  Holiday week, 15 degrees, and there is NOTHING in terms of snowmaking or grooming going on at Solitude.  Nothing.  For a company that has so much money you would expect them to be doing SOMETHING.  Shows where their priorities are.
> 
> I talked to one guy who visited Solitude this week and said that the liftlines were 40 minutes long.  It was not even five years ago that they never came close to that.  Looks like Solitude has all grown up and gone corporate--gone are the powder days with few folks, good snowmaking and grooming, and free parking.  Hello shit snowmaking, 40 minute lines, and $20 parking.  Not to mention that old Subies and old VW vans have given way to shiny new Sprinter Camper vans.
> 
> If I owned one of the condos at the Solitude Village I would be ripshit.  Talk about really effing it up.


Who owns solitude?


----------



## FBGM (Dec 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Who owns solitude?


Deer Valley, under Alterra. Or however they all combined or bought out.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 29, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I just got done another night at Brighton.  Holiday week, 15 degrees, and there is NOTHING in terms of snowmaking or grooming going on at Solitude.  Nothing.  For a company that has so much money you would expect them to be doing SOMETHING.  Shows where their priorities are.
> 
> I talked to one guy who visited Solitude this week and said that the liftlines were 40 minutes long.  It was not even five years ago that they never came close to that.  Looks like Solitude has all grown up and gone corporate--gone are the powder days with few folks, good snowmaking and grooming, and free parking.  Hello shit snowmaking, 40 minute lines, and $20 parking.  Not to mention that old Subies and old VW vans have given way to shiny new Sprinter Camper vans.
> 
> If I owned one of the condos at the Solitude Village I would be ripshit.  Talk about really effing it up.


I skied Soli the most last year. It was busy at times but no 40 min lines. And I’m a weekend skier these days.

All I can think of for their snowmaking is they are close to done with what they can make snow on - it has been cold and they don’t have a lot of snowmaking terrain. Or they are limited due to their snowmaking issues beginning of season. Either way, there has to be some thin skiing there.

Also that paid parking is a sham. I stopped paying after I realized they don’t check and if they do, nothing happens if you don’t pay.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 29, 2020)

Well it looks like Attitash finally got the two peaks connected today.  Its not just that Attitash has been slow with the snowmaking and terrain expansion, imo their planned trail rollout has been poor as well.  Starting with Illusion at Bear makes sense, but then the effort should have been to get Flying Yankee and the double doubles in addition to Learning Center open instead of Summit.  Get most of the greens open on the Attitash side open before proceeding to Summit.  Illusion and the terrain to connect the peaks on Bear would keep the advanced skiers occupied without the need of Summit.  Then once Flying Bear, Flying Yankee, the double doubles, Learning Center and Snowbelt are all open and connected, would I go after opening Summit.  The amount of snowmaking it took to get 1-1/2 runs off of summit could have been used to get 4 or 5 runs open off of Flying Yankee and the Double doubles to spread people out.

And as bad as Attitash has been, Wildcat is worse as they still only have Lynx open.  WTF are they doing there?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Who owns solitude?


Alterra ultimately.  

Alterra first bought Deer Valley.  The next season they bought Solitude.  Solitude was an independent family-owned area until 2015 or so.  Then Deer Valley bought it and ran it for 2-3 years.  DV's owners ultimately sold both to Alterra.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> Well it looks like Attitash finally got the two peaks connected today.  Its not just that Attitash has been slow with the snowmaking and terrain expansion, imo their planned trail rollout has been poor as well.  Starting with Illusion at Bear makes sense, but then the effort should have been to get Flying Yankee and the double doubles in addition to Learning Center open instead of Summit.  Get most of the greens open on the Attitash side open before proceeding to Summit.  Illusion and the terrain to connect the peaks on Bear would keep the advanced skiers occupied without the need of Summit.  Then once Flying Bear, Flying Yankee, the double doubles, Learning Center and Snowbelt are all open and connected, would I go after opening Summit.  The amount of snowmaking it took to get 1-1/2 runs off of summit could have been used to get 4 or 5 runs open off of Flying Yankee and the Double doubles to spread people out.
> 
> And as bad as Attitash has been, Wildcat is worse as they still only have Lynx open.  WTF are they doing there?



My roll out for Attitash would be this:

Focus on Yankee first:

Upper Highway to Spillway, Thad's and Far Out.  

Then:

Morning Star to Snowdancer to the Bear cut back.   It would take more snow than Illusion, but you'd have the interconnect ready to go right away.  I know Illusion is used for race training, but you could use Spillway until Illusion is ready

Learning area at Attitash to follow
Illusion
Upper Saco down Cathedral.  
Mythmaker down to Kachina Chair base

Goal should be getting the Interconnect done as soon as possible as well as having the earliest start possible for slope side home developments.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> My roll out for Attitash would be this:
> 
> Focus on Yankee first:
> 
> ...


So let me ask you this:  I know that Crotched is relatively easy for you, but why not drive to Sunapee?  Too far for a day?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So let me ask you this:  I know that Crotched is relatively easy for you, but why not drive to Sunapee?  Too far for a day?


I'll be skiing Sunapee quite a bit this season starting Friday.

But there are a couple of reasons I'll likely be skiing Crotched more.

1.  Parking.  This is a big deal with young kids during normal times, but especially true this season.  Almost all of Crotcheds parking is an easy walk to the lift.  Vast majority of Sunapee parking requires a shuttle ride.  No bueno when the car is your base lodge 

2.  Crotched is a better mountain for beginners.  Hopefully by mid season my son progresses enough that this is less of an issue.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 29, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll be skiing Sunapee quite a bit this season starting Friday.
> 
> But there are a couple of reasons I'll likely be skiing Crotched more.
> 
> ...


Ot, any one here ever ski stevens pass? Love the look of the place from their Mtn cams


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll be skiing Sunapee quite a bit this season starting Friday.
> 
> But there are a couple of reasons I'll likely be skiing Crotched more.
> 
> ...


So I have not been to Crotched, but being a former Sunapee Passholder, I agree that the parking really sucks.  I was only an hour or so away so early starts assured decent parking, but now with EPIC I imagine it is a different story.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 29, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So I have not been to Crotched, but being a former Sunapee Passholder, I agree that the parking really sucks.  I was only an hour or so away so early starts assured decent parking, but now with EPIC I imagine it is a different story.


only been to Sunapee once but like the vibe, had a similar vibe like catamount.  Never been to crotched but its on my bucket list


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 29, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Good find, looks like this dude is running wildcat. He has a doctor of law from Rutgers and was in charge of risk management for vail. We are screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Risk management????? Probably won’t allow any rope ducking anymore at the Cat. Sad.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> only been to Sunapee once but like the vibe, had a similar vibe like catamount.  Never been to crotched but its on my bucket list


Not sure when you went to Sunapee but I haven’t liked the vibe since the state stopped running it. Overgroomed, slow to open trails even after a large dump and as others said parking now an issue.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure when you went to Sunapee but I haven’t liked the vibe since the state stopped running it. Overgroomed, slow to open trails even after a large dump and as others said parking now an issue.


St Patrick’s day five years ago give or take a year or two, conditions great, tailgating in the parking lot, yeah it was a fun day


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 29, 2020)

eatskisleep said:


> Risk management????? Probably won’t allow any rope ducking anymore at the Cat. Sad.


Feel bad for the dude, wonder if the powers to be in Broomfield co have it figured out yet?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure when you went to Sunapee but I haven’t liked the vibe since the state stopped running it. Overgroomed, slow to open trails even after a large dump and as others said parking now an issue.


I was there during the Mueller Reign.  Definitely groomed A LOT and quite polished.


----------



## Katahdin (Dec 30, 2020)

Apparently Vail doesn't know where Attitash, Crotched & Wildcat are.  They are listed in the midwest on the buddy ticket page:


----------



## cdskier (Dec 30, 2020)

Katahdin said:


> Apparently Vail doesn't know where Attitash, Crotched & Wildcat are.  They are listed in the midwest on the buddy ticket page:
> 
> 
> View attachment 49913



There's a bunch of others on that list I wouldn't consider mid-west either (Jack Frost/Big Boulder is in the Poconos, and Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail are in South-Central/South Eastern PA).

And even better, on another place on their own website they DO classify all those as part of their "Northeast" region:


----------



## thebigo (Dec 30, 2020)

Got out to wildcat today for our 20th day of the season. Cannot believe first time back at the cat since opening day but vail has not given us much choice, Lynx still the only run open. Had to work in AM, we got there are around 1:00, parked in c lot and hopped the tomcat. Good to see the tomcat running, lynx was bulletproof on all but around 5 ft on one the side of the trail. We enjoyed several runs through the soft bumps on the side but there many people in way over their heads. Still cannot believe it is almost new years, feels more like veterans day at the cat; lynx was in much better shape when I skied it two years ago in October than today.

It would appear word has gotten out on the product they are offering. Quad was ski on all afternoon with chair in front and behind typically empty. There is still grass showing on upper polecat, appears they had a frozen pipe, about half a dozen snowmakers walking down the hill carrying propane cylinders and torch, banging the pipe with hammers.

They were blowing on the snowcat when we arrived, guns were off when we left. Drove by attitash on way home, massive line for the bear quad.

After a few runs on the lynx, daughter needed sugar. Went into lodge to buy one beer and hot chocolate. This is comparatively a small thing but only beer in the cooler was coors light and bud light, seriously? There are a bunch of great local beers, how about some moat or tuckermans in the cooler?

I know they like to get polecat open early for marketing reasons but it never seems to work out and takes a massive amount of snow. I would argue for something on the otherside after lynx: catapult, middle wildcat, bobcat would make sense.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 30, 2020)

Zand said:


> I selfishly hope they keep delaying finishing South Peak. I love how simple of a base area it is right now. Park nice and close to the lift with no stairs or other bullshit to have to walk through. Nice basic "lodge" with all you need...cubbies, a bar, a cafeteria, and a ticket window. Then you have some of the best terrain at Loon all to yourself most days while people wait in 20 minute lines for the Gondy and Kanc after parking in the sometimes horror show of a main base area.
> 
> While,it's obviously in their best interest to get it completed, I'll enjoy each year that they don't get to it.





thebigo said:


> Got out to wildcat today for our 20th day of the season. Cannot believe first time back at the cat since opening day but vail has not given us much choice, Lynx still the only run open. Had to work in AM, we got there are around 1:00, parked in c lot and hopped the tomcat. Good to see the tomcat running, lynx was bulletproof on all but around 5 ft on one the side of the trail. We enjoyed several runs through the soft bumps on the side but there many people in way over their heads. Still cannot believe it is almost new years, feels more like veterans day at the cat; lynx was in much better shape when I skied it two years ago in October than today.
> 
> It would appear word has gotten out on the product they are offering. Quad was ski on all afternoon with chair in front and behind typically empty. There is still grass showing on upper polecat, appears they had a frozen pipe, about half a dozen snowmakers walking down the hill carrying propane cylinders and torch, banging the pipe with hammers.
> 
> ...


I agree going after Polecat after lynx is a waste.  They should have gotten several runs off of Bobcat including Wild Kitten which IMO is better than Polecat and Snowcat open before starting on Polecat


----------



## abc (Dec 30, 2020)

Slightly positive news. After a "mere" 30 minutes on hold, I was able to get through to a Vail "customer service representative"! Woohoo!!!  

Seeing I probably won't be skiing for the next 10 days at the minimum, given the current lack of snow on the ground and lack of storm with cold air in the atmosphere, I asked if they could send me my new pass by mail, WITHOUT charge. A very short and courteous "yes" and a quick verification of address, it's done. 

Length of conversation: less than 1 minutes. Time on hold: 30 minutes. 

Had they offered to send it free of charge in the first place, it would have not needed this additional call to their over-worked "customer service" center. (and of course, had the mountains be more efficient in facilitating new pass pick up, this phone call would NOT have been necessary either)

So much for the cost/benefit of a business decision to charge for the shipping of new passes early on. You would have thought people getting paid $$ to make such decisions know what's best to their bottom line?


----------



## SLyardsale (Dec 30, 2020)

here's your Mt. Snow WX forecast for the next 4 days courtesy of Vail Resorts:  (on the high end  = 3 1/2 feet of snow in the next 4 days - who saw that coming?)


----------



## abc (Dec 30, 2020)

SLyardsale said:


> who saw that coming?


Who? Vail marketing team!


----------



## Mainer (Dec 31, 2020)

Anybody want a good laugh. Attitash and wildcat are getting destroyed on the Facebook comments. My favorites are them getting called out for the fake pictures. There is absolutely no natural snow in the mount Washington valley, yet the pictures show a ton of snow in background. Oops


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2020)

A friend was at Wildcat today.  They opened Upper Polecat!  

Well, the first 100 feet of it to the cutoff back to Lynx.  Way to go Vail!!


----------



## Edd (Dec 31, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> A friend was at Wildcat today.  They opened Upper Polecat!
> 
> Well, the first 100 feet of it to the cutoff back to Lynx.  Way to go Vail!!


I can’t believe this is even real.


----------



## abc (Dec 31, 2020)

Mainer said:


> Anybody want a good laugh. Attitash and wildcat are getting destroyed on the Facebook comments. My favorites are them getting called out for the fake pictures. There is absolutely no natural snow in the mount Washington valley, yet the pictures show a ton of snow in background. Oops


More the reason to post real picture on here of what it's actually like each and every day. 

Foil the Vail information blackout with truth!


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2020)

What is with Vail straight up lying about snowfall totals? Here at Park City, they posted on their IG 19” in last 48 hours. What?!?!? We got maybe 2” over night, and nothing the day before?


----------



## njdiver85 (Dec 31, 2020)

This issue was explained on the Northeast Skiology FB page, using Mount Snow as an example.  Detailed explanation provided, but short answer, Vail uses Dark Sky for their weather feed, which is apparently a terrible weather feed when it comes to discerning snow from sleet and freezing rain.  Also fails to correct for temperature inversions at altitude.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2020)

Here is Park Cities IG claiming 19” over past 2 days. I’ve had 1” at my house. Alta, says they got 1”...what fucking bullshit is Vail trying here


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2020)

FBGM said:


> View attachment 49928
> Here is Park Cities IG claiming 19” over past 2 days. I’ve had 1” at my house. Alta, says they got 1”...what fucking bullshit is Vail trying here


Okay...so this is from last year. That they posted now, to remember the good times? Weird. Sneaky. Still dumb.


----------



## kingslug (Dec 31, 2020)

Vail..big mega corp..not suprising they post BS. No soul..just spread sheets.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 31, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> A friend was at Wildcat today.  They opened Upper Polecat!
> 
> Well, the first 100 feet of it to the cutoff back to Lynx.  Way to go Vail!!


The top 100 feet were open yesterday, the bottom 100 feet were open today. The only new terrain they have managed to open in three weeks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2020)

FBGM said:


> What is with Vail straight up lying about snowfall totals? Here at Park City, they posted on their IG 19” in last 48 hours. What?!?!? We got maybe 2” over night, and nothing the day before?


Yeah that’s wrong.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Vail..big mega corp..not suprising they post BS. No soul..just spread sheets.


Vail was the topic of conversation amongst a few of us.  The consensus is that the bad weather, pandemic, and the recent press release announcing $500 mill in new bond offerings for operations are not good news.


----------



## elks (Jan 1, 2021)

SLyardsale said:


> here's your Mt. Snow WX forecast for the next 4 days courtesy of Vail Resorts:  (on the high end  = 3 1/2 feet of snow in the next 4 days - who saw that coming?)


AFAIK, Vail is creating new marketing positions in the East. Met the new Crotched guy this week who's responsible for snow reports. So hopefully, this will improve.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2021)

kelly001 said:


> AFAIK, Vail is creating new marketing positions in the East. Met the new Crotched guy this week who's responsible for snow reports. So hopefully, this will improve.


so you met him what did he say? just that they were creating new marketing positions in the East? The marketing isn't the issue, the product is.


----------



## elks (Jan 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> so you met him what did he say? just that they were creating new marketing positions in the East? The marketing isn't the issue, the product is.


Essentially, that the snow reporting, photos, and social interactions will be local, not done remotely from headquarters, which is a positive.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2021)

kelly001 said:


> Essentially, that the snow reporting, photos, and social interactions will be local, not done remotely from headquarters, which is a positive.


Move in the right direction but...


----------



## abc (Jan 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The marketing isn't the issue, the product is.


The product is indeed the main problem. The false advertising just makes it 10 times worse. 

But the 2 are linked. If they don't have enough people to man the actual skiing part of the operation, what's the priority of having someone to do the snow report?


----------



## RichT (Jan 1, 2021)

Does anybody know of a facebook page for Hunter skiers? Not the official page but one for the masses that want to know the "TRUTH" about what going on, what's open where the snowmaking is..............................A woman on the lift old me there was one called Hunter Mtn blog or something?

Thanks


----------



## JimG. (Jan 1, 2021)

RichT said:


> Does anybody know of a facebook page for Hunter skiers? Not the official page but one for the masses that want to know the "TRUTH" about what going on, what's open where the snowmaking is..............................A woman on the lift old me there was one called Hunter Mtn blog or something?
> 
> Thanks


Try NYSkiBlog...focused on NY skiing there is a thread devoted to Hunter mountain conditions.

Not a Facebook page.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 1, 2021)

kelly001 said:


> AFAIK, Vail is creating new marketing positions in the East. Met the new Crotched guy this week who's responsible for snow reports. So hopefully, this will improve.


Can you ease elaborate. Is this a new hire? New position?

Despite being the unofficial torchbearer for the vail sucks AZ mob, I do hope they figure it out and this sounds like a baby step in the right direction. Unfortunately for them, they only have about 6 - 8 weeks to show some significant and impactful progress before choices need to be made; I suspect many will be gone for good if they fail.

Highway and cathedral at attitash have both been blown deep. With 6 - 12" forecast tonight they both need to be pushed out tonight and the yankee needs to be open tomorrow. Seasonal programs are starting tomorrow, the triple is not a viable option for moving kids and coaches to bear.


----------



## elks (Jan 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Can you ease elaborate. Is this a new hire? New position?


As I understand it, it is a new position. I think his title is Brand Manager.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2021)

kelly001 said:


> As I understand it, it is a new position. I think his title is Brand Manager.


For the ministry of misinformation


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Vail..big mega corp..not suprising they post BS. No soul..just spread sheets.



I'm beginning to think their spreadsheets arent even that great.   Like they're still using Lotus instead of Excel.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Can you ease elaborate. Is this a new hire? New position?
> 
> Despite being the unofficial torchbearer for the vail sucks AZ mob, I do hope they figure it out and this sounds like a baby step in the right direction. Unfortunately for them, they only have about 6 - 8 weeks to show some significant and impactful progress before choices need to be made; I suspect many will be gone for good if they fail.
> 
> Highway and cathedral at attitash have both been blown deep. With 6 - 12" forecast tonight they both need to be pushed out tonight and the yankee needs to be open tomorrow. Seasonal programs are starting tomorrow, the triple is not a viable option for moving kids and coaches to bear.


I harass out of . I love attitash, spring skiing c lot at wildcat. I wouldn’t have bought my pass otherwise. I’m stuck with vail, them with me. They really need to figure it out, because that’s my only option and my favorite option


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## 2Planker (Jan 2, 2021)

As a Cat skier and patroller for 50+ years, this is absolutely the worst I have ever seen it.
Such a shame that Vail just doesn't care about the lil guy.

Once again, several of us are contemplating another offer to buy the Cat.  

If you didn't read it before, NOW it's even more true


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 2, 2021)

Mount Snow surprised me with acuracy this morning.  3 inches of snow and now it's raining.


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## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Several inches on the ground in the mount washington valley and snowing heavy. No mention of the yankee in the attitash snow report.

They have blown the snow, it is deep and just sitting there. It is new years weekend, what are they waiting for? How can forcing massive lines to wait for the triple be in anyone's interest?


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## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Once again, several of us are contemplating another offer to buy the Cat.


Is this a serious consideration or a bunch of guys sitting around the bar at the door shooting the shit?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Is this a serious consideration or a bunch of guys sitting around the bar at the door shooting the shit?



I'd love to read the business plan.  The place would need quite a bit of investment to make it as a stand alone entity IMO.  Not the least of which being having the capital to replace the quad in the next 10-15 years.  Not too many HSQ out there older than 30 years old and Cats is now 23.  

What I feel would be best for it is if a situation like Taos happened where you have some billionaire with great passion for the mountain buys it, wants to maintain the historic culture of the place and isn't too worried about making a bunch of money.


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## snoseek (Jan 2, 2021)

Wildcat as a standalone mountain owned by a group that gave a shit would be a dream.


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## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

This says it all, hoard of kids at 3 to ratio. High speed quad closed, fixed grip triple open.


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## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Lift and trails closed, saturday holiday week.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2021)

Hers a pipe dream that would be great.  Vail cancels the lease, USFS leases Cat to the State, NH runs it like Cannon.  Introduce a new pass product called NH People's pass inclusive of Cannon, Wildcat and Gunstock.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Meanwhile, over at bear:


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Meanwhile, over at bear:


That is insane.  Whomever this GM is needs to be replaced ASAP.  To have crowds that big and not have other lifts running when they could be is unacceptable.   Why is Flying Yankee not up and running by now when there is now plenty of snow to have it open.  Rob Katz needs to make an apology for both Attitash and Wildcat specifically as this is a complete sh*t show.  I see a lot of people buying White Mountain Superpasses next year in the MWV.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Jan 2, 2021)

kelly001 said:


> Essentially, that the snow reporting, photos, and social interactions will be local, not done remotely from headquarters, which is a positive.


I complained about this a couple of years ago when ikon bought Sugarbush.  All the ikon sites looked the same, no local feel at all.  Up to this year Epic and Ikon websites didn't even have a daily update.  You have/had two options on Ikon/Epic sites for weather of trails.  Weather would give you a forecast, trails would give you a list of trails that are open.  Neither would tell you about current conditions etc. They seem to be getting better now but All corporate ski websites have ZERO local feel to them.  This is why VAIL SUCKS.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 2, 2021)

10AM at Mount Snow and they only have Tubleweed, Heavy Metal and Discovery. That 3 inches sure caused them a lit of trouble.  They really do suck.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> That is insane.  Whomever this GM is needs to be replaced ASAP.  To have crowds that big and not have other lifts running when they could be is unacceptable.   Why is Flying Yankee not up and running by now when there is now plenty of snow to have it open.  Rob Katz needs to make an apology for both Attitash and Wildcat specifically as this is a complete sh*t show.  I see a lot of people buying White Mountain Superpasses next year in the MWV.



You can count me as one family who is moving on.  I'm in the sweet spot of who Vail should be trying to please.  Next year my kids will be 6 and 3.  I'll have them in seasonal programs at Cannon.  That's a solid revenue stream for Vail for 15 years.  Tens of thousands of dollars in revenue taken elsewhere over that time period.  I would have to see a miraculous turn around this year and next to take my business back to Vail. I want nothing more than my kids to grow up skiing Wildcat as their home mountain, but despite my love of the place, there's just no way I can justify giving my money to Vail next season after what has gone on up there this year.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Our eight year old is in a seasonal program, four year old in private lessons. My wife and i have not been able to take a single run together because we cannot trust the piece of shit triple to get us back to the base within an hour. Tomorrow she is back to her covid patients and vail does not even care enough to offer an explanation.


----------



## abc (Jan 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> vail does not even care enough to offer an explanation.


Has anyone complained directly to Attitash for an explanation?


----------



## snoseek (Jan 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Hers a pipe dream that would be great.  Vail cancels the lease, USFS leases Cat to the State, NH runs it like Cannon.  Introduce a new pass product called NH People's pass inclusive of Cannon, Wildcat and Gunstock.


God damn this right here! I've always said Cannon and Gunstock would be everything I want on a pass and being state and county owned makes a shitload of sense. Add Wildcat on and I would pay top dollar. discounts for in state residents like they do at Cannon would be awesome. Attitash can go over to Ikon because they need more NH options


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

They don't answer the phone and I am taking every effort to be say thank you and be gracious to employees. They are not the problem and I am sure they are being abused even more than us.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Several inches on the ground in the mount washington valley and snowing heavy. No mention of the yankee in the attitash snow report.
> 
> They have blown the snow, it is deep and just sitting there. It is new years weekend, what are they waiting for? How can forcing massive lines to wait for the triple be in anyone's interest?


Wonder if theres a serious staffing issue going on?


----------



## gregnye (Jan 2, 2021)

I know money is tight right now and Vail might be hesitant to blow snow at Wildcat (a mountain that is day-trips only). But I'd have way more respect for Vail if they just decided earlier in the year that they weren't going to open Wildcat at all due to funding, and gave passholders the option for a refund. And then Wildcat was just open for backcountry skiing this year, and then next season, when there is money again, Vail reopened wildcat. Instead, Vail is putting in minimal effort, pretending that everything is normal on social media, and annoying Wildcat fans.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Snowmaking is not the problem. There are whales everywhere at attitash, pushing them out and lifts are the problem. Will post pictures later, still skiing. For all the warts, illusion was awesome today. Early this week would be a good time to get up here.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2021)

gregnye said:


> I know money is tight right now and Vail might be hesitant to blow snow at Wildcat (a mountain that is day-trips only). But I'd have way more respect for Vail if they just decided earlier in the year that they weren't going to open Wildcat at all due to funding, and gave passholders the option for a refund. And then Wildcat was just open for backcountry skiing this year, and then next season, when there is money again, Vail reopened wildcat. Instead, Vail is putting in minimal effort, pretending that everything is normal on social media, and annoying Wildcat fans.


Not sure I understand your comment "day trips only"

Also not sure I agree with money being tight.  They had $600M in cash on hand 11/30 with another $600M in liquidity available to them.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 2, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> 10AM at Mount Snow and they only have Tubleweed, Heavy Metal and Discovery. That 3 inches sure caused them a lit of trouble.  They really do suck.


I can personally attest that after the 3" there was a decent amount of freezing rain that put a serious crust on top.

Lift mechanics had their work cut out for them to de ice everything before they could spin the lifts.

Main base area was crowded. Carinthia, once Nitro opened late morning had good snow and lines under 10 minutes


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 2, 2021)

Cash is not the problem, the new gm of attitash and wildcat are in over their head, they apparently made wrong command decisions and everything went down hill from there. apparently these new gems have no friends in Mtn ops to help them, feel bad for them, do they get fired? Or is this year all a huge learning experience for them?  One other issue, until recently New England had drought issues, my brook running thru my yard just recently filled up, it was a trickle through November, did they have water for snowmaking at attitash and wildcat, would of thought vail had a deep bench for gm candidates but it appears not to be the case. I think since they took over peak resorts they have bounced or gms left for other jobs or retired, seven or eight in total, almost half of all peak resorts gm jobs.


----------



## catskillman (Jan 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> As a Cat skier and patroller for 50+ years, this is absolutely the worst I have ever seen it.
> Such a shame that Vail just doesn't care about the lil guy.
> 
> Once again, several of us are contemplating another offer to buy the Cat.
> ...


I read this - interesting. 

Powder Burn is written totally about Vail and how they take over towns and operate.  Not a company I would like to work for...


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I can personally attest that after the 3" there was a decent amount of freezing rain that put a serious crust on top.
> 
> Lift mechanics had their work cut out for them to de ice everything before they could spin the lifts.
> 
> Main base area was crowded. Carinthia, once Nitro opened late morning had good snow and lines under 10 minutes


Didn't look like much to me.  MS has been pretty lousy at deicing for quite a while now.  Stratton, with basically the same weather, always kicks their ass.

No attempt to run Sundance was pathetic.  Carinthia wasn't bad.  Without the quad, Sundance and Ego, the bubble and Canyon lines were one big mass of people.  1 lift on North Face also not too good.  

I would buy into the Covid excuse a little more if they didn't do such a lousy job last year.


----------



## abc (Jan 2, 2021)

Actually, Vail Corp is sitting at a very sweet spot!

For years, Vail has tried to sell as many season pass as possible. That pre-season sale of passes is basically insurance against any hiccups during the season. Whatever the weather, even if it never snow the whole season, they've already got the money in the bank, so to speak.

So this year, by introducing capacity limits and, according to Vail's marketing material, only selling day tickets when there's spare capacity from pass holders, they entice customers to buy passes in advance instead of waiting to buy day tickets. With that scare tactic of day ticket buyers being shut out entirely, they managed to sell MORE season passes than they ever did!

Making snow and running lifts are really irrelevant for THIS season. The worst that could happen is people don't buy pass NEXT season. For this season? They are sitting pretty. With so much of the revenue already realized, one wonders what's the motivation to even try to do anything apart from the absolute minimum.

OK, they could be sued for non-performance of advance sale. But who's going to do that?


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

I had just had an absolutely spectacular day at attitash with my kids. My eight year went wire to wire, 9 - 1 with coaches, then 1 to last lift with me. My four year old had a great lesson. The open terrain is in great shape. Big soft bumps everywhere. The coaches and instructors, that do it for the love of the sport, are incredible.

For everything that a company like vail can do wrong, the sport itself and good snow can cover many mistakes. I am sure I will be pissed off at vail again tomorrow for some stupid decision they make but tonight I am going to enjoy the memories, soak my tired bones in a four pack of moat hell yes and get ready to do it all over again tomorrow. I just hope my daughter is jumping out of her skin again, when I pick her up, to show me some new park trick she learned.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 2, 2021)

Today:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually, Vail Corp is sitting at a very sweet spot!
> 
> For years, Vail has tried to sell as many season pass as possible. That pre-season sale of passes is basically insurance against any hiccups during the season. Whatever the weather, even if it never snow the whole season, they've already got the money in the bank, so to speak.
> 
> So this year, by introducing capacity limits and, according to Vail's marketing material, only selling day tickets when there's spare capacity from pass holders, they entice customers to buy passes in advance instead of waiting to buy day tickets. With that scare tactic of day ticket buyers being shut out entirely, *they managed to sell MORE season passes than they ever did!*



It's really not that rosy.   From the MTN 10Q filed a few weeks ago:



> _2020/2021 North American season pass sales. As we approach the end of our selling period, season pass sales for the North American ski season* increased approximately 20% in units and were flat in sales dollars*_



So, while yes, it seems COVID19 made even more people seek out a season pass option, they lost quite a bit of lemon juice from redemption credits.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 3, 2021)

I have yet to even ski Wildcat this year. I bought the pass mostly to ski there but keep ending up at Cannon or somewhere closer instead. Was looking to go there tomorrow so looked at the snow report and they are still essentially 1 and 2/3 run. Are they even blowing?

In other news Cannon is absolutely killing it this year. Their snowmaking has gotten pretty good these days.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2021)

snoseek said:


> In other news Cannon is absolutely killing it this year. Their snowmaking has gotten pretty good these days.


I agree, They have 41 trails open. Compared to wildcats meager offing.


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## catskillman (Jan 3, 2021)

An aquaintance was skiing at Hunter yesterday.  Was scanned before you can enter the mountain/ticket pickup etc.   Was scanned at the 6 pack a couple of times, and then around 1 got an email saying he had not yet showed up for this reservation !

What a mess..


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## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually, Vail Corp is sitting at a very sweet spot!
> 
> For years, Vail has tried to sell as many season pass as possible. That pre-season sale of passes is basically insurance against any hiccups during the season. Whatever the weather, even if it never snow the whole season, they've already got the money in the bank, so to speak.
> 
> ...


Totally agree about their scare tactics. However, they claim more passes sold, but keep in mind they acquired 17 resorts at the start of last season and many people had already purchased passes at those resorts. So if you look at total number of passes: this season, versus last season Peaks + MTN, you may have a very different outlook.


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## thebigo (Jan 3, 2021)

catskillman said:


> An aquaintance was skiing at Hunter yesterday.  Was scanned before you can enter the mountain/ticket pickup etc.   Was scanned at the 6 pack a couple of times, and then around 1 got an email saying he had not yet showed up for this reservation !
> 
> What a mess..


The emails appear to be specific to hunter. We have canceled and/or failed to get scanned more times than I care to guess.

If you listen to the scanners they have a different sound for different passes. Attempts to scan my pass yield the sound associated with a kids pass >50% of the time, compounded with the <50% of the time they even attempt to scan i would estimate they get a proper scan roughly 10% of lift rides. That is not a problem if you are here all day but for a local planning to ski one hour before the crowds show up, it is bound to yield a number of false no shows.


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## Cobbold (Jan 3, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Totally agree about their scare tactics. However, they claim more passes sold, but keep in mind they acquired 17 resorts at the start of last season and many people had already purchased passes at those resorts. So if you look at total number of passes: this season, versus last season Peaks + MTN, you may have a very different outlook.


According to vail last earnings report they sold 1.4 million passes, some are epic one day pass up to seven day epic passes, some are regional passes, some are the military passes at 150 each, how many are local epic passes, how many are full epic passes, no matter how you slice that’s a lot of money sitting in their bank account for a couple of months, my guess they invested a lot of this in short term commercial paper and made another 25 to  50 million.  What’s hurting vail is the food beverage sales on the Mtn, how much are they down? Who knows, but all ticket sales this year are full price, like everywhere else, so that’s helping, except for the buddy/swf tickets.  It’s a challenging year but all the resorts are in the same boat, for example was just at big sky couple of their restaurants, one being high end not opening this year, the Kitchener lodge by the 8 pack wasn’t open, what’s the loss revenue to boyne on that?  While their is a lot of hate for vail on this forum, most of irrational if you ask me, but that’s just my opinion.  Vail did drop the ball at wildcat and atitash this year, it seems based upon how the rest of the resorts are doing just specific to atitash and wildcat.  My guess vail missed with these two gms, can the new gms  be saved? Who knows? But the worst of the resorts is wildcat, don’t won’t to hurt any of my New Hampshire brethren’s feelings, but based upon peak resorts 10k from a few years ago, wild cat did 66 k skiers that year, mad river in Ohio did 180 k skier visits.  while we always want our resorts to going full tilt all the time, right now wild cat for what ever reason is crapping the bed.  Yesterday a forum poster, post that he skied at atitash yesterday and had the time of his life, and will ski their again today.  From talking to people on the lift at Mt snow, okemo, Stowe, high percentage of people have no idea, vail owns them, hell one employee at Stowe I talked to didn’t realize vail was a ski resort, thought it was just the corporate name of her employer.  Until I bought my epic pass and became a ski groupie, old groupie lol, I couldn’t care less who owned what Mtn, or ran what Mtn, I just wanted to show up, ski, drink a few beers and then drive home.  Most people from my talks on the chairlift couldn’t name rob Katz as the ceo of vail resorts if their live depended on it.  My point is most people only care about the product that day they are skiing, does that mean lots of people are pissed at wildcat?,  yup, but it’s aimed at wildcat, not vail, not mr. Katz. Are their people on the chairlift blaming vail, sure, but 3/4 of the people on the chairlift are probably wondering why 1/4 are blaming vail. Just my thoughts, one example, at least half the people I talked to riding the lifts at big sky had no idea boyne resorts owned big sky, nor did they really care one way or another., skiers are their to ski not to analyze  the ski industry.  Ps apologize for any typos, which i am sure our numerous.


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## FBGM (Jan 3, 2021)

What is the new GM for Wildcats name? I’ll see if I can find his e-mail. Vail standardizes all emails and I did my year with them. My email format was the same as the GMs.

Sounds like a massive amount of emails straight to the man is needed. He gets enough, he will answer someone. 

Also, has anyone just walks to his office yet? Go see what the deal is face to face. Get some answers? If not, I would suggest doing so.


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## kingslug (Jan 3, 2021)

Very good advice..This forum will not reach him...That will.


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## Mainer (Jan 3, 2021)

Wildcat is actually doing a better job since the start of Christmas week. Opened the  green lift, reopened polecaT, opened magic carpet. Running tomcat even though it accesses the same terrain at the quad. All attitash has opened is Morningstar which has had snow blown on it for Most of last month. Attitash has amazing snowmaking, they refuse to open a mid mountain lift for Christmas week.  If you have a Facebook account, comment under their picture. They are checking them and responding


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## RichT (Jan 3, 2021)

FBGM said:


> What is the new GM for Wildcats name? I’ll see if I can find his e-mail. Vail standardizes all emails and I did my year with them. My email format was the same as the GMs.
> 
> Sounds like a massive amount of emails straight to the man is needed. He gets enough, he will answer someone.
> 
> Also, has anyone just walks to his office yet? Go see what the deal is face to face. Get some answers? If not, I would suggest doing so.


Here ya go!
Joshua Klevans
linkedin.com/in/joshua-klevans-a85bb982


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## Breeze (Jan 3, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Wildcat as a standalone mountain owned by a group that gave a shit would be a dream.


It wasn't under Pat or Lou Franchi, either, and Lou built a crap-load of condo's and ski-homes in the MWV, depending on his own  product.


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## Cobbold (Jan 3, 2021)

FBGM said:


> What is the new GM for Wildcats name? I’ll see if I can find his e-mail. Vail standardizes all emails and I did my year with them. My email format was the same as the GMs.
> 
> Sounds like a massive amount of emails straight to the man is needed. He gets enough, he will answer someone.
> 
> Also, has anyone just walks to his office yet? Go see what the deal is face to face. Get some answers? If not, I would suggest doing so.


My guess, the poor man is inches away from a nervous breakdown, wishes he never got involved in the ski industry, wish vail would pull Blaise Carrington out of retirement and send him to atitash and wildcat for a few weeks, maybe a month, should have been that in November, the person above these gms may be also on thin ice, for picking the wrong guy, not supporting them early enough etc.  picking the right guy for the job is never easy, look at the nfl, every year 20 percent of the coaches get fired, probably not more than six or seven coaches have 10 years of continuous coaching the same team, top of my head, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, New England, Seattle, their must be another 2 or 3.  This experience or nightmare depending on your point of view may make this young man the finest gm in the vail system or it could totally break him, time will tell.


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## abc (Jan 3, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> My guess, the poor man is inches away from a nervous breakdown, wishes he never got involved in the ski industry, wish vail would pull Blaise Carrington out of retirement and send him to atitash and wildcat for a few weeks, maybe a month, should have been that in November, the person above these gms may be also on thin ice, for picking the wrong guy, not supporting them early enough etc.  picking the right guy for the job is never easy, look at the nfl, every year 20 percent of the coaches get fired, probably not more than six or seven coaches have 10 years of continuous coaching the same team, top of my head, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, New England, Seattle, their must be another 2 or 3.  This experience or nightmare depending on your point of view may make this young man the finest gm in the vail system or it could totally break him, time will tell.


You don't understand corporate America at all!

There's no direct relationship of business success and career success. But there's direct relationship between career success and ability to BS! 

If you're scared about your "failure", you're not cut out for the top job.


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## FBGM (Jan 3, 2021)

Well that was easy, I think. Let’s try:
Jklevans@vailresorts.com. 

If there is more then one “jklevans” they just add a 1,2,3...etc to the end of the email. I’d fire away, see what answers you may or may not get.

 There is also an east region GM I think. I think it’s some lady, maybe came from Okemo? Her email would follow same format.


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## Cobbold (Jan 3, 2021)

abc said:


> You don't understand corporate America at all!
> 
> There's no direct relationship of business success and career success. But there's direct relationship between career success and ability to BS!
> 
> If you're scared about your "failure", you're not cut out for the top job.


Ever h


abc said:


> You don't understand corporate America at all!
> 
> There's no direct relationship of business success and career success. But there's direct relationship between career success and ability to BS!
> 
> If you're scared about your "failure", you're not cut out for the top job.


ever hear of Jeffrey immelt, read his story, how he hated life, was avoiding jack welch, till he turned his unit around, lots of stories like that, lots of stories like les otten not turning around the American ski company also.  Brian Fairbanks in 1970s at one point after a chairlift disaster thought the ski industry wasn’t right for him,


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## McFatt (Jan 4, 2021)

This thread is great! Someplace to complain about how Vail has failed our expectations this year. I skied every day from Dec 26 till yesterday Jan 2 all at Attitash with 1 day at Wildcat. I waited in lift line on average 25 minutes for each run. In my 30 years of skiing Attitash, I have never seen lift lines as long as they were this past week at both Bear Peak Attitash. Why no singles lines this year? Isn't there a pandemic happening? Only a couple runs open over 2 main lifts? The weather has been cooperating for snow making, but it seems to be happening at a snails pace. The drought is over, especially since the Christmas deluge. Wildcat still only has 1 weak trail opened from the top (Lynx is great and all, but everything gets BORING after 5-6 laps). WTF is going on up here? 
Drove home after 1 run yesterday Jan 2. It was a cold morning, but the snow was pretty decent. The line at Bear Peak stretched all the way across the base area to the Kachina lift. Could not deal with waiting another 30+ minutes to make another run down Illusion. Left frustrated, even though Saturday was a decent powder day. How can this many people be allowed at the resort with Covid Protocols? Isn't the point of the reservation system so LIMIT the number of people so it's safe and spread out?  FAIL this past week. 
I certainly hope this upcoming weekend has more terrain and another lift open. I can't deal with 30minute lift lines for a 2 minute run all season long.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

McFatt said:


> This thread is great! Someplace to complain about how Vail has failed our expectations this year. I skied every day from Dec 26 till yesterday Jan 2 all at Attitash with 1 day at Wildcat. I waited in lift line on average 25 minutes for each run. In my 30 years of skiing Attitash, I have never seen lift lines as long as they were this past week at both Bear Peak Attitash. Why no singles lines this year? Isn't there a pandemic happening? Only a couple runs open over 2 main lifts? The weather has been cooperating for snow making, but it seems to be happening at a snails pace. The drought is over, especially since the Christmas deluge. Wildcat still only has 1 weak trail opened from the top (Lynx is great and all, but everything gets BORING after 5-6 laps). WTF is going on up here?
> Drove home after 1 run yesterday Jan 2. It was a cold morning, but the snow was pretty decent. The line at Bear Peak stretched all the way across the base area to the Kachina lift. Could not deal with waiting another 30+ minutes to make another run down Illusion. Left frustrated, even though Saturday was a decent powder day. How can this many people be allowed at the resort with Covid Protocols? Isn't the point of the reservation system so LIMIT the number of people so it's safe and spread out?  FAIL this past week.
> I certainly hope this upcoming weekend has more terrain and another lift open. I can't deal with 30minute lift lines for a 2 minute run all season long.


It's interesting that some resorts have singles lines and others don't.  Brighton does.  Snowbird does not.


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## Edd (Jan 4, 2021)

Skied the Cat today. Seems as if no efforts are being made to blow snow. Lynx and the lower sections of Polecat skied well in the morning. Several people we encountered in the lot were baffled at the lack of terrain.


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## dblskifanatic (Jan 4, 2021)

So I have seen lots of negative stuff in various threads regarding Vail.  I am not sure what the issues are from Vails perspective but I would imagine the rain we got in December messed things up somewhat,  The whole COVID thing does not help since ski areas are probably opening up terrain differently because of it.  I am also not sure how much Vail has sunk its teeth into operations in the Northeast yet.  Yes Stowe, Okemo and Sunapee have been under Vail slightly longer but my guess, is when operations become more normal this will all change for the better (optimistic).  I feel that with F&B sales being limited they are limiting expenses.  I would not doubt for a second that Vail just wants out of this season as a whole and are trying to skate by.

My guess Vail acquired Peak Resorts to capture the NY, CT and MA population so they can market them to ski out west.  In that case Mount Snow, Okemo, Stowe and possibly Sunapee and Hunter become the main attractions in the East.  Wildcat is tough, no lodging - strictly skiing.  Attitash does attract many out of state people and I think there is Vail owned lodging there so I would think managing that one would have significance.  I know many blame the GM but their operations staff should know better and influence opening of terrain.

For the money the Epic pass does offer lots of skiing options in the Northeast and out west which is still a viable option even with COVID impacting things.

We did not get the Epic Pass this year since we were not sure where we were going to move to.  However, next season, that may be an option but living around Boston limits day trip options and limits the number of ski days.


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know many blame the GM but their operations staff should know better and influence opening of terrain.



That depends on a couple things... 1) Was there a lot of turnover in the rest of the Ops staff? 2) If not and the snow-making and mountain ops teams are largely the same, then is the new GM receptive to input from them? Or is he someone that thinks he knows everything on his own and over-rides their input?


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## Mainer (Jan 4, 2021)

Just skied attitash. Bunch of trails have snow blown on them, but nothing is open. Still just illusion, connector to attitash. 1 1/2 runs off triple. Talked to an employee who was just as frustrated as me, he said they don’t have enough people to drive the groomers. I have a 4 and a 6 year old, the learning triple at attitash  is boring for my kids. Top of illusion is super icy and crowded. Morningstar would be fine but instead of running it right back to bear you have to skate back on the bottom
Cat track pulling little kids. The triple is the triple. My wife is pissed at me because I choose the passes. I think the new gm thinks he’s the man and is not listening to the people that have worked there forever. What a pathetic effort


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## Mainer (Jan 4, 2021)

And the pile of shit in the porta potty was higher than the seat


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## dblskifanatic (Jan 4, 2021)

> My guess Vail acquired Peak Resorts to capture the NY, CT and MA population so they can market them to ski out west. In that case Mount Snow, Okemo, Stowe and possibly Sunapee and Hunter become the main attractions in the East.



My guess on the flagships of the Northeast is right!



			https://www.epicpass.com/region/northeast.aspx


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 4, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Just skied attitash. Bunch of trails have snow blown on them, but nothing is open. Still just illusion, connector to attitash. 1 1/2 runs off triple. Talked to an employee who was just as frustrated as me, he said they don’t have enough people to drive the groomers. I have a 4 and a 6 year old, the learning triple at attitash  is boring for my kids. Top of illusion is super icy and crowded. Morningstar would be fine but instead of running it right back to bear you have to skate back on the bottom. Cat track pulling little kids. The triple is the triple. My wife is pissed at me because I choose the passes. I think the new gm thinks he’s the man and is not listening to the people that have worked there forever. What a pathetic effort


I wish Attitash would reallocate the folks operating the learning center triple to one of the doubles.  The double could service both the learning center and Far Out --> BNP --> StoneyBrook and not substantially increase their staffing burden. My LITTLE kids want to take the slowmit triple since they are bored with the learning center lift.

Looking at the Vail Resorts Career website Attitash has 40+ positions open.





						Attitash Jobs
					






					jobs.vailresortscareers.com
				




I would suspect that since Attitash is looking for groomer operators (multiple levels) and lift mechanics (multiple levels) that our struggles are really due to the lack of staffing.  The new GM likely got stacked with a lousy deck this year.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 4, 2021)

that begs to ask, what the hell happened to all of the mountain ops staff?  Were they let go?  Does Vail not pay enough?  I would think most grooming positions don't turn over in a winter, because its a highly skilled position.   IDK...


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## dblskifanatic (Jan 4, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that begs to ask, what the hell happened to all of the mountain ops staff?  Were they let go?  Does Vail not pay enough?  I would think most grooming positions don't turn over in a winter, because its a highly skilled position.   IDK...


My guess, some of them did not want to work for a large corporation like Vail.


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

My


jimmywilson69 said:


> that begs to ask, what the hell happened to all of the mountain ops staff?  Were they let go?  Does Vail not pay enough?  I would think most grooming positions don't turn over in a winter, because its a highly skilled position.   IDK...


 guess mr. Katz will force the gms to apologize for the conditions and then during the off season quietly re- assigned them, cough cough, would think their would be assistant gms  at the major resorts who could of stepped up, but I guess not, my guess they got caught flat footed with the wildcat gm going to Sunday River, atitash gm retiring, should have kept Barnes from Mt snow and had him in charge of both since they are so close, not sure if a gm can run two mtns at once.


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> My guess, some of them did not want to work for a large corporation like Vail.


My guess, lots of foreign workers picked up the slack last year and aren’t their this year.


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## thebigo (Jan 4, 2021)

It occurred to me today that Vail may have never intended to keep wildcat and attitash but there simply was not enough time between close of Peaks acquisition and the pandemic to unload them. This may explain why both GMs, and apparently a significant percentage of the staff, departed this year. Further why the GMs were replaced with younger (read cheaper) candidates. Their orders may have been, keep them open until we can unload them and don't activate the insurance on any passes.

The amount of snow that has been blown at Attitash, on trails yet to open this year, is staggering. I dont buy the foreign worker argument, I have not heard of any areas being impacted on the scale of wildcat and attitash.


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## FBGM (Jan 4, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that begs to ask, what the hell happened to all of the mountain ops staff?  Were they let go?  Does Vail not pay enough?  I would think most grooming positions don't turn over in a winter, because its a highly skilled position.   IDK...


While there are a few good/skilled groomers kicking around at each resort, most of the time a monkey could do it. And the grooming will show. They pay like dog shit. Entry level groomer is like $13/hr. Experienced groomers might squeeze $22/hr. You could run a hoe year round for $18/hr starting or go union or city and make way more.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 4, 2021)

thebigo said:


> It occurred to me today that Vail may have never intended to keep wildcat and attitash but there simply was not enough time between close of Peaks acquisition and the pandemic to unload them. This may explain why both GMs, and apparently a significant percentage of the staff, departed this year. Further why the GMs were replaced with younger (read cheaper) candidates. Their orders may have been, keep them open until we can unload them and don't activate the insurance on any passes.
> 
> The amount of snow that has been blown at Attitash, on trails yet to open this year, is staggering. I dont buy the foreign worker argument, I have not heard of any areas being impacted on the scale of wildcat and attitash.



There really isnt any logical reason other than a staffing issue for what's going on at attitash.  


Many other vail properties are having issues this winter too, lack of staff probably playing a large role, this thread just seems to be largely focused on NH


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## FBGM (Jan 4, 2021)

Mainer said:


> And the pile of shit in the porta potty was higher than the seat


I would say send that pic to the GM in an email. Zoom in


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

I 


thebigo said:


> It occurred to me today that Vail may have never intended to keep wildcat and attitash but there simply was not enough time between close of Peaks acquisition and the pandemic to unload them. This may explain why both GMs, and apparently a significant percentage of the staff, departed this year. Further why the GMs were replaced with younger (read cheaper) candidates. Their orders may have been, keep them open until we can unload them and don't activate the insurance on any passes.
> 
> The amount of snow that has been blown at Attitash, on trails yet to open this year, is staggering. I dont buy the foreign worker argument, I have not heard of any areas being impacted on the scale of wildcat and attitash.


i have heard Katz speak numerous times(YouTube videos etc) about the image of vail and the importance of their guests and quality of the guest stay, no way would he allow a half ass operation till they sold the areas, I really believe they have long range plans for both which includes upgrades, if they were selling they would have shut both down before damaging their brand, they got flat footed and picked two guys who are in over their heads, sometimes the simple explanation is the correct one, but who really knows what is going on, but the epic pass in northern New Hampshire is taking a beating.


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## Mainer (Jan 4, 2021)

The new gm at attitash was hired nov 1. I don’t think they started hiring until after that. I’m guessing experienced skilled seasonal employees would want a guarantee of employment around or before that time. As a business owner in the mount Washington valley, I know it’s hard to find employees. But when u start hiring after everyone else and pay less than everyone else, you know what u get. Scraps. It really all comes down to bad management. I don’t know if Greg Gavrilets (new attitash gm) is way over his head or he just got dealt a bad hand. But he will probably need a bodyguard soon if he doesn’t figure it out.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Just skied attitash. Bunch of trails have snow blown on them, but nothing is open. Still just illusion, connector to attitash. 1 1/2 runs off triple. Talked to an employee who was just as frustrated as me, he said they don’t have enough people to drive the groomers. I have a 4 and a 6 year old, the learning triple at attitash  is boring for my kids. Top of illusion is super icy and crowded. Morningstar would be fine but instead of running it right back to bear you have to skate back on the bottom
> Cat track pulling little kids. The triple is the triple. My wife is pissed at me because I choose the passes. I think the new gm thinks he’s the man and is not listening to the people that have worked there forever. What a pathetic effort


If I were the GM of Attitash, I'd learn to drive a groomer myself and push out Cathedral to get the Yankee open


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## tumbler (Jan 4, 2021)

Vail is too big.  Katz probably doesn't even know where Attitash is...sounds like they need a better corporate structure with regional presidents to run the show.  However, (putting on tin foil hat) I am a bit suspicious that the ski areas know something we do not about the season getting suspended or totally shut down again.  Make it through the holidays but another surge is coming.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that begs to ask, what the hell happened to all of the mountain ops staff?  Were they let go?  Does Vail not pay enough?  I would think most grooming positions don't turn over in a winter, because its a highly skilled position.   IDK...



Fairly reliable sources have told me the Attitash MTN ops manager left for Sunday River and the Wildcat MTN ops manager left for Sugarbush.

Less reliable sources have said that line level snowmakers and groomers get paid much better by the competition.

While Facebook isn't the perfect barometer, I've been following the White Mountain Superpass areas and none of them have nearly as pissed off customers

End of the day, I have little room to cut a billion dollar company slack on screwing up this badly.


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Vail is too big.  Katz probably doesn't even know where Attitash is...sounds like they need a better corporate structure with regional presidents to run the show.  However, (putting on tin foil hat) I am a bit suspicious that the ski areas know something we do not about the season getting suspended or totally shut down again.  Make it through the holidays but another surge is coming.





tumbler said:


> Vail is too big.  Katz probably doesn't even know where Attitash is...sounds like they need a better corporate structure with regional presidents to run the show.  However, (putting on tin foil hat) I am a bit suspicious that the ski areas know something we do not about the season getting suspended or totally shut down again.  Make it through the holidays but another surge is coming.


The only place in New England that seems to be a problem, for vail,  is wildcat and atitash, Sunapee is 40 percent open, crotched is 50 percent, read all kinds of articles that college kids took time off to work ski areas this winter, but apparently not at wildcat or atitash, looks like to me, vail picked two gms who weren’t ready for prime time, my guess these two are on borrowed time, I am sure Katz and his senior time have all kinds of metrics that they use to track gms, and atitash /wildcat gms are getting killed on them, the question is who does vail have in the bullpen, do they bring Blaise carrington out of retirement, rehire the old gm of Mt snow, some combination of the two?  But this is a disaster for vails reputation of quality skiing experience.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> The only place in New England that seems to be a problem, for vail,  is wildcat and atitash, Sunapee is 40 percent open, crotched is 50 percent, read all kinds of articles that college kids took time off to work ski areas this winter, but apparently not at wildcat or atitash, looks like to me, vail picked two gms who weren’t ready for prime time, my guess these two are on borrowed time, I am sure Katz and his senior time have all kinds of metrics that they use to track gms, and atitash /wildcat gms are getting killed on them, the question is who does vail have in the bullpen, do they bring Blaise carrington out of retirement, rehire the old gm of Mt snow, some combination of the two?  But this is a disaster for vails reputation of quality skiing experience.


Just playing Devil's Advocate for a minute....considering that folks here have commented about long lines at Attitash it might seem that Vail may think that everything is fine since folks are skiing there.  The conditions suck and operations suck, but there are people coming through the gates.  And honestly Vail already got people's money from pass sales.


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

o


thetrailboss said:


> Just playing Devil's Advocate for a minute....considering that folks here have commented about long lines at Attitash it might seem that Vail may think that everything is fine since folks are skiing there.  The conditions suck and operations suck, but there are people coming through the gates.  And honestly Vail already got people's money from pass sales.


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

Who knows what the folks in Broomfield co, know or don’t know, but I can’t believe they are happy with this if they are aware of it, vail is big on metrics, hard to believe they are not aware of it. Most big retail stores have mystery shoppers, hard to believe vail wouldn’t have mystery skiers at all their areas, assuming their metrics don’t pick up this mess, the mystery skiers sure would.


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## snoseek (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> The only place in New England that seems to be a problem, for vail,  is wildcat and atitash, Sunapee is 40 percent open, crotched is 50 percent, read all kinds of articles that college kids took time off to work ski areas this winter, but apparently not at wildcat or atitash, looks like to me, vail picked two gms who weren’t ready for prime time, my guess these two are on borrowed time, I am sure Katz and his senior time have all kinds of metrics that they use to track gms, and atitash /wildcat gms are getting killed on them, the question is who does vail have in the bullpen, do they bring Blaise carrington out of retirement, rehire the old gm of Mt snow, some combination of the two?  But this is a disaster for vails reputation of quality skiing experience.


They bought too much too fast and this is the result. Broomfield makes alot of decisions and is supposed to be the support. I fully expect a bullshit apology letter from mr Katz involving lots of half truths right before next years  years pass goes on sale. 

Best case Vail loses money...enough to sell some areas off to include wildcat. I was there today and it was hard to see it like that. I cant even imagine last week


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Who knows what the folks in Broomfield co, know or don’t know, but I can’t believe they are happy with this if they are aware of it, vail is big on metrics, hard to believe they are not aware of it. Most big retail stores have mystery shoppers, hard to believe vail wouldn’t have mystery skiers at all their areas, assuming their metrics don’t pick up this mess, the mystery skiers sure would.


Here's why I think it goes beyond the local inexperienced GM F'ing up at Attitash.

This mornings snow report stated snowmaking resumes Wednesday and they will have more terrain open for the weekend.  The snow is there right now on Cathedral trail to push out and open it.  It's Monday. Skip grooming something else for a night and open the trail.  You don't even have to open the Yankee chair if you are that short staffed.  You can access that trail from the Triple via Tightrope. 

Mind you, Cathedral also has a ton of slopeside homes and condos on it.  Those owners must be positively livid.

I can't be convinced that cost containment directives from Colorado arent influencing at least partially what is going on at Attitash.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2021)

snoseek said:


> They bought too much too fast and this is the result. Broomfield makes alot of decisions and is supposed to be the support. I fully expect a bullshit apology letter from mr Katz involving lots of half truths right before next years  years pass goes on sale.
> 
> Best case Vail loses money...enough to sell some areas off to include wildcat. I was there today and it was hard to see it like that. I cant even imagine last week


I agree.  Maybe it will eventually make the Epic Podcast series--"Lessons Learned from the White Mountains".


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

snoseek said:


> They bought too much too fast and this is the result. Broomfield makes alot of decisions and is supposed to be the support. I fully expect a bullshit apology letter from mr Katz involving lots of half truths right before next years  years pass goes on sale.
> 
> Best case Vail loses money...enough to sell some areas off to include wildcat. I was there today and it was hard to see it like that. I cant even imagine last week


 You might be right, but I think you hear from Katz within the month, if they are aware of this, can’t believe they are not, does look like they are thin in the talent pool for gms, hard to believe but here we are.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 4, 2021)

I’ve been thinking about the million dollar homes by Abenaki that weren’t open, completely forgot about cathedral. This probably isn’t going to end well for the new gm.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree.  Maybe it will eventually make the Epic Podcast series--"Lessons Learned from the White Mountains".


lol, the opposite of the Geoff Buchheister podcast


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I’ve been thinking about the million dollar homes by Abenaki that weren’t open, completely forgot about cathedral. This probably isn’t going to end well for the new gm.


Are the Abenaki homes part of atitash?


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 4, 2021)

Has anyone actually reached out to Vail or even the Attitash GM to ask WTF? Or do messages go unanswered and avoided like their poor social media manager does.....?


----------



## thebigo (Jan 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's why I think it goes beyond the local inexperienced GM F'ing up at Attitash.
> 
> This mornings snow report stated snowmaking resumes Wednesday and they will have more terrain open for the weekend.  The snow is there right now on Cathedral trail to push out and open it.  It's Monday. Skip grooming something else for a night and open the trail.  You don't even have to open the Yankee chair if you are that short staffed.  You can access that trail from the Triple via Tightrope.
> 
> ...


It is not just cathedral, saco has looked like the picture below for a week. Why does the grooming have to be at night? Are you really telling me there was nobody at attitash today that could drive a groomer? Train someone, how hard can it be? 

When I was operations manager in an industrial setting, I knew how to operate every piece of equipment in the building. If someone called in sick, I was on the floor, not sitting in my office. 

Do okemo and mount snow leave whales for weeks with hour lines on holiday weekends for fixed grips next to closed high speed quads? Do they not also rely on imported labor?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's why I think it goes beyond the local inexperienced GM F'ing up at Attitash.
> 
> This mornings snow report stated snowmaking resumes Wednesday and they will have more terrain open for the weekend.  The snow is there right now on Cathedral trail to push out and open it.  It's Monday. Skip grooming something else for a night and open the trail.  You don't even have to open the Yankee chair if you are that short staffed.  You can access that trail from the Triple via Tightrope.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

Wouldn’t the same cost containment that vail is requiring of wildcat and atitash be also on Sunape, okemo,crotched Mt snow, round top etc in the northeast, they all seem to be working, I onced work in an organization with a guy who got fired from another organization because he wouldn’t spend the company’s money on their clients, he was a millionaire but couldn’t spend money his or any else’s, maybe vail is so focused on money these  new guys are paralyzed by this and can’t spend money, who knows what’s going on, but the other northeast resorts seem to be functioning with essentially the same weather and financial constraints.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 4, 2021)

If you own a million dollar slope side home on Abenaki. There has to be some sort of agreement to provide access to those houses. If not, I dont want to be that developer


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Wouldn’t the same cost containment that vail is requiring of wildcat and atitash be also on Sunape, okemo,crotched Mt snow, round top etc in the northeast, they all seem to be working, I onced work in an organization with a guy who got fired from another organization because he wouldn’t spend the company’s money on their clients, he was a millionaire but couldn’t spend money his or any else’s, maybe vail is so focused on money these  new guys are paralyzed by this and can’t spend money, who knows what’s going on, but the other northeast resorts seem to be functioning with essentially the same weather and financial constraints.



It has at every Epic resort in New England.

Grew up skiing Okemo from 84-94.  Stowe was my home mountain outside of a few seasons from 95-2005.  Okemo I haven't much followed in 20 years, but their count looks light compared to what prior owners did. Stowe I do very much follow and ski.  They are way down.

Even during the worst of winters weather wise, Stowe would have Lift line, Hayride, Cliff Trail, Gondolier and Nosedive open by now and several others.  

Mind you, I get it.  All tourism businesses are just trying to survive during this unprecedented disruption in life .  I certainly wasn't expecting Vail to make snow like normal times.  But, they did start the year with the same amount of pass revenue in pocket as last year.  Something like 50-75 % of the normal efforts would seem reasonable given the loss of other revenue streams.  It would appear that's what is happening at most Northeastern resorts.  I'd put Attitash and Wildcat well below 50% effort. 

Katz HAS to know this.  

Hard for any MWV Epic skier to trust they will treat those areas and customers better next season.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jan 4, 2021)

They are clearly trying to control costs above all else. I was at Wilmot in Wisconsin today. Packed house but only three of seven chairs in operation. Tons of natural snow and every other mountain in the region is 100 percent open.

Vail is not a ski company. Skiing is just a vehicle for creating stock market value.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It has at every Epic resort in New England.
> 
> Grew up skiing Okemo from 84-94.  Stowe was my home mountain outside of a few seasons from 95-2005.  Okemo I haven't much followed in 20 years, but their count looks light compared to what prior owners did. Stowe I do very much follow and ski.  They are way down.
> 
> ...


well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash,  if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people  smell blood and the price drops.  Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again,  but time will tell.  But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol


----------



## snoseek (Jan 4, 2021)

Vail will sink minimal if any money into Wildcat good season or bad.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash,  if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people  smell blood and the price drops.  Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again,  but time will tell.  But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol


$35 million seems Steep... wasn’t wildcat sold for $4.5 million a decade ago??  
Edit nvm
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1517401/000104746914008395/a2221701zex-10_22.htm


----------



## snoseek (Jan 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash,  if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people  smell blood and the price drops.  Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again,  but time will tell.  But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol


I'm pretty sure Vail owning Copper wouldn't fly


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm pretty sure Vail owning Copper wouldn't fly


It was a hypothetical scenario


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## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> $35 million seems Steep... wasn’t wildcat sold for $4.5 million a decade ago??
> Edit nvm
> https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1517401/000104746914008395/a2221701zex-10_22.htm


35 million for both wildcat and atitash, my guess tops 10 million for wildcat, 25 million for atitash


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2021)

_Wildcat was indeed sold for short money.

it has done over 100k skier visits in the past.  It will never be a huge money maker, but it can be profitable due to how lean it can be run.  Don't believe there's another 2k vertical hill in the East that can operate 100% with lifts and terrain for all abilities off just two lifts. Can run the lodge with minimal staff midweek as well.  You only have to cover 60% of the terrain with a snowmaking base and groom about the same and Cat skiers will be happy and wait for mother nature to do the rest.  Basically run it like Peak did with maybe just a bit more aggressive snowmaking push to start the season.  

Cat skiers are used to highs and lows and typically pretty patient for the natural to fall. In a way they're not too different than MRG skiers.  

You have to really F up for the regulars to be as pissed as they are this year_


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

Atitash maybe goes for more than 25 million, but probably not much more, hard to tell without seeing complete financials. And you need buyers, look at jay peak granted they want way more than it’s worth, and COVID 19 most be doing a job on the financials, in the era of super passes, would atitash and wildcat survive?  Need to be owned by individuals with deep pockets if you want want to compete with the big four.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> _Wildcat was indeed sold for short money.
> 
> it has done over 100k skier visits in the past.  It will never be a huge money maker, but it can be profitable due to how lean it can be run.  Don't believe there's another 2k vertical hill in the East that can operate 100% with lifts and terrain for all abilities off just two lifts. Can run the lodge with minimal staff midweek as well.  You only have to cover 60% of the terrain with a snowmaking base and groom about the same and Cat skiers will be happy and wait for mother nature to do the rest.  Basically run it like Peak did with maybe just a bit more aggressive snowmaking push to start the season.
> 
> ...


My guess vail wants to run it like one of the three Tahoe areas, not sure whether it be Kirkwood, or Northstar, rustic, laidback for the more advanced skier who doesn’t want everything groomed,


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 4, 2021)

inspite of bad issues this year in northern Nh, I have  high hope that vail improves all their resorts, like I hope ikon improves their areas, and boyne improves theirs.  COVID 19 knocked on vails boor , vail didn’t seek out COVID 19, and every other industry is dealing with it, hope fully it end sooner rather than later.  Hopefully, a red light is flashing in Broomfield co, and Katz picks up the bat phone.


----------



## Pez (Jan 5, 2021)

I was at mount snow sunday, they seemed to have the normal mount of trails open for a lean year situation. It hasn't really been that cold either.  Sundance lodge was only open for bathrooms, no ticket window there either.  

I honestly think it's more of a staffing issue. There was always kids from other countries working the season.  The guys who scanned my pass were middle age no accents.

Lines were orderly.  there was a single line which worked out well.

we need snow.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> inspite of bad issues this year in northern Nh, I have  high hope that vail improves all their resorts, like I hope ikon improves their areas, and boyne improves theirs.  COVID 19 knocked on vails boor , vail didn’t seek out COVID 19, and every other industry is dealing with it, hope fully it end sooner rather than later.  Hopefully, a red light is flashing in Broomfield co, and Katz picks up the bat phone.



I certainly hope Vail does give the MWV areas the investment that the skiers up there want.  If they do, I'll come back.  No place I'd rather call home than Wildcat.  For next season it will be Cannon.  Many Cat friends feel the same.  Can't trust Vail until they prove themselves first.


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I certainly hope Vail does give the MWV areas the investment that the skiers up there want.  If they do, I'll come back.  No place I'd rather call home than Wildcat.  For next season it will be Cannon.  Many Cat friends feel the same.  Can't trust Vail until they prove themselves first.


Time will tell, hopefully wildcat and atitash pull it together for the sake of the skiers in that part of New Hampshire.  I would be shocked if the current conditions continue at these places for much longer without an intervention from Corp, but who really knows,


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## abc (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I would be shocked if the current conditions continue at these places for much longer without an intervention from Corp, but who really knows,


Pop over to the Hunter thread and see for yourself. Mountain closed, with no explanation. 

It may be as innocent as losing power. But no explanation? That's thanks to the "Corp"!


----------



## thebigo (Jan 5, 2021)

Below is the snow report cut from the crotched website today. It is well written and informative, this is what all vail mountains should be publishing on their website everyday.



> It feels like winter again and the weather this week is going to be perfect for opening additional terrain. Pluto's, Jupiter's Storm, Big Dipper and NCC are now open and the skiing/riding has been great! Mid-week laps are where it's at; enjoy plenty of space on the slopes. *We're open 'til 9pm - come join the fun!
> 
> Week outlook:* A park build will happen in NCC on Tuesday for opening Wednesday. Snowmaking will continue as temps permit with a goal of adding Retro, Blast Off, Eclipse, UFO, Equinox and Magnitude for the weekend.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Below is the snow report cut from the crotched website today. It is well written and informative, this is what all vail mountains should be publishing on their website everyday.


great when they only have 4 trails open. Gets a little much at a place that has over 40 open. Not that any in the east do.


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Pop over to the Hunter thread and see for yourself. Mountain closed, with no explanation.
> 
> It may be as innocent as losing power. But no explanation? That's thanks to the "Corp"!


Hearing different things, none of them good, time Will tell


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash,  if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people  smell blood and the price drops.  Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again,  but time will tell.  But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol


I talked to a financial guru this weekend.  He thinks selling any resorts would be a major problem for Vail and result in a drop in the stock price.  Hence the bond offering.  As much as I hate to say it, I foresee them limping along for at least another season.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm pretty sure Vail owning Copper wouldn't fly


I don't either.  Antitrust issues.  Additionally, why would POWDR sell Copper for these two resorts on the east coast?  Copper is one of its big resorts.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I talked to a financial guru this weekend.  He thinks selling any resorts would be a major problem for Vail and result in a drop in the stock price.  Hence the bond offering.  As much as I hate to say it, I foresee them limping along for at least another season.


The key will be, if they actually go thru with lifts at okemo, keystone, Breckenridg, if they do cash flow is fine, they might have this to pay off the first 500 million which limits what they can spend, time will tell, if vail is limping, boyne,powdr and alterra are in or around the same spots


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't either.  Antitrust issues.  Additionally, why would POWDR sell Copper for these two resorts on the east coast?  Copper is one of its big resorts.


Copper was a hypothetical example, vail wouldn’t sell atitash and wild cat, just trade them and I picked copper for an example, just an example, depending on how things go, I could see vail trading with alterra with regards to deer valley, would take more than wildcat atitash though, lol


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Copper was a hypothetical example, vail wouldn’t sell atitash and wild cat, just trade them and I picked copper for an example, just an example, depending on how things go, I could see vail trading with alterra with regards to deer valley, would take more than wildcat atitash though, lol


I get what you are saying, but I just don't think that these folks would deal with Vail since they have all deemed Vail to be their arch rival.  And if Vail can't turn these places around, why would one of these companies think they would do any better?


----------



## 1dog (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I talked to a financial guru this weekend.  He thinks selling any resorts would be a major problem for Vail and result in a drop in the stock price.  Hence the bond offering.  As much as I hate to say it, I foresee them limping along for at least another season.


Maybe, but the financials show high one-time costs this year compared to last, and a lower EBITA, but all things considered, a lot of people made a lot of money on the stock - including some hedge funds that bet big.  Forward earnings appear to be headed up - how can it get worse than this year? Expensive stock.









						Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) Income Statement - Yahoo Finance
					

Get the detailed quarterly/annual income statement for Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN). Find out the revenue, expenses and profit or loss over the last fiscal year.




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2021)

Just thinking of this but with barely any restrictions in NH and VT having a lot more (on paper anyway) why wouldn't Vail try to increase trail count in NH over VT? Only answer is they know no one is following the rules and they encourage it.


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I get what you are saying, but I just don't think that these folks would deal with Vail since they have all deemed Vail to be their arch rival.  And if Vail can't turn these places around, why would one of these companies think they would do any better?


My guess powdr hates vail with a passion due to the park city issue


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> My guess powdr hates vail with a passion due to the park city issue


Yep.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Just thinking of this but with barely any restrictions in NH and VT having a lot more (on paper anyway) why wouldn't Vail try to increase trail count in NH over VT? Only answer is they know no one is following the rules and they encourage it.


Who knows what’s going on, but I still think vail picked  two gms who crapped the bed, it happens, when does vail self correct the error,  in a week? next month? End of season? Who knows but the epic brand is taking a beating, the quicker the self correction, the better every one will be.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> My guess powdr hates vail with a passion due to the park city issue



literally the biggest screw up in the history of skiing and should make a top 50 list of business screw ups too.


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.


Still think the big four merge into the big three, boyne and powdr at some point merge, and if alterra or vail collapse, it becomes the big two.  I could see the big three, and alterra sells some of their resorts to boyne and vail, that’s how I see the post COVID 19 world


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Still think the big four merge into the big three, boyne and powdr at some point merge, and if alterra or vail collapse, it becomes the big two.  I could see the big three, and alterra sells some of their resorts to boyne and vail, that’s how I see the post COVID 19 world


Interesting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> literally the biggest screw up in the history of skiing and should make a top 50 list of business screw ups too.


Ski Utah did a podcast episode with John Cumming.  The show has a lot of potential, but the host is more interested in kissing ass and not really asking hard questions.  For John Cumming, the host made a bad joke about the lease issue and did not go any further.  Of course the listening public would be appreciate hearing John's side of it, but they did not want to embarrass a Ski Utah member.

It's been widely reported that Cumming had laid off the accountant/manager whose responsibility was to renew the lease and it sat on the vacant desk until John saw it a few days after the deadline.  It is also known that POWDR had a KILLER deal with that lease and that Talisker really wanted to renegotiate a higher lease payment since it was so ridiculously low.  So Talisker was not too disappointed that POWDR blew it.


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## abc (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It's been widely reported that Cumming had laid off the accountant/manager whose responsibility was to renew the lease and it sat on the vacant desk until John saw it a few days after the deadline. It is also known that POWDR had a KILLER deal with that lease and that Talisker really wanted to renegotiate a higher lease payment since it was so ridiculously low. So Talisker was not too disappointed that POWDR blew it.


Unless Cumming fired the guy in a hissing fit (not impossible), an exiting employee has a professional duty to do a proper transition. Something as important as a lease renewal deadline is something that should be highlighted.

Whoever it was, unless he had a very compelling story, is very unlikely to get another job anywhere.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Unless Cumming fired the guy in a hissing fit (not impossible), an exiting employee has a professional duty to do a proper transition. Something as important as a lease renewal deadline is something that should be highlighted.
> 
> Whoever it was, unless he had a very compelling story, is very unlikely to get another job anywhere.


Well, it still fell on Cumming to handle it and he didn't.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> literally the biggest screw up in the history of skiing and should make a top 50 list of business screw ups too.


I’m out of the loop, what happened?


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, it still fell on Cumming to handle it and he didn't.


Yes, but as the saying goes "it takes TWO mistake to make a disaster"!

Though it's possible the two mistakes are both Cummings, by not having someone to take over the work of the guy he fired/laid off/whatever.


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## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, but as the saying goes "it takes TWO mistake to make a disaster"!
> 
> Though it's possible the two mistakes are both Cummings, by not having someone to take over the work of the guy he fired/laid off/whatever.


They made a mess of killington for a time being, still have some negatives from screwing some of the original killington investors out of their annual pass.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, but as the saying goes "it takes TWO mistake to make a disaster"!
> 
> Though it's possible the two mistakes are both Cummings, by not having someone to take over the work of the guy he fired/laid off/whatever.


That's what I think happened.  

If Snowbird was doing better, I would be more understanding of him, but he has really effed things up.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> They made a mess of killington for a time being, still have some negatives from screwing some of the original killington investors out of their annual pass.


Yes, I use that as an example.  He pissed everyone off there and then got bored and moved on.  I am hoping that the same happens with Snowbird.  His Dad tried REALLY hard to keep John OUT of running Snowbird, in part because of his major eff up with the PCMR lease.  But after the old man died Snowbird slowly moved over to John's control.  He has really pissed a lot of people off with cutting employee pay and benefits (they already had a bad reputation as an employer), charging for parking, implementing the stupid parking reservation system, and selling out to IKON.  Now with a bad snow season a lot of these issues are going to come to a head.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> I’m out of the loop, what happened?



Short version, some likely middle to higher level management person at Powdr Corp, forgot to submit a letter of intent to renew, for another 20yrs, the lease for the land that basically all of the terrain that made up what used to be known as the Park City Mountain Resort, short of the immediate base area, and renew it at a ridiculously low rate of something like 100k a year, for over 3000 acres of terrain that most of the ski area was on.

The land owner was the Talisker Corp, who among other things had some business with Vail Resorts, and at that time was the owners at operators of what used to be just known at the Canyons resort next to PCMR.

The deadline passed. Talisker said you missed the deadline, the old, honey of a deal lease is no more, the offered a much more realistic, higher lease term. Powdr whined. There was a bunch of back and forth threats including Powdr taking out its lifts on the Talisker owned land that Powdr leased, back and forth, and finally once Powdr knew they lost, Vail came in and bought both the Canyons and the leased PCMR land as well as the Powdr owned PCMR base area land


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, I use that as an example.  He pissed everyone off there and then got bored and moved on.  I am hoping that the same happens with Snowbird.  His Dad tried REALLY hard to keep John OUT of running Snowbird, in part because of his major eff up with the PCMR lease.  But after the old man died Snowbird slowly moved over to John's control.  He has really pissed a lot of people off with cutting employee pay and benefits (they already had a bad reputation as an employer), charging for parking, implementing the stupid parking reservation system, and selling out to IKON.  Now with a bad snow season a lot of these issues are going to come to a head.


From what I hear, Cummings is an idiot son of a billionaire, who thinks he is smarter than any one else.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> From what I hear, Cummings is an idiot son of a billionaire, who thinks he is smarter than any one else.


That is exactly right.  Big ego.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Short version, some likely middle to higher level management person at Powdr Corp, forgot to submit a letter of intent to renew, for another 20yrs, the lease for the land that basically all of the terrain that made up what used to be known as the Park City Mountain Resort, short of the immediate base area, and renew it at a ridiculously low rate of something like 100k a year, for over 3000 acres of terrain that most of the ski area was on.
> 
> The land owner was the Talisker Corp, who among other things had some business with Vail Resorts, and at that time was the owners at operators of what used to be just known at the Canyons resort next to PCMR.
> 
> The deadline passed. Talisker said you missed the deadline, the old, honey of a deal lease is no more, the offered a much more realistic, higher lease term. Powdr whined. There was a bunch of back and forth threats including Powdr taking out its lifts on the Talisker owned land that Powdr leased, back and forth, and finally once Powdr knew they lost, Vail came in and bought both the Canyons and the leased PCMR land as well as the Powdr owned PCMR base area land


Right.  The whole thing led to a protracted lawsuit. Vail ended up winning in court. Not after both companies spent a ton on legal fees. It was a pretty black-and-white case – – you did not renew the contract by the deadline end of story. Additionally, Ian Cumming stepped in and negotiated the sale because his son had effed it up so badly.  

Some people think that the reason why Ian bought Snowbird was so that his family would at least have some presence in Utah and to try to save face. There is no doubt that Ian spent a lot of money on improving Snowbird and he always made it clear that it was HIS resort and not John’s and not POWDR’s.  Since his death that has slowly changed.

And POWDR was always Ian’s money since John had none.  If you do your research you find out pretty quickly that almost all of POWDR’s resorts are leased and not owned. That is because they just did not have the resources. Killington is example one.  However, since Dad has died all of the sudden they have a ton of money for new lifts and shiny things such as at Killington.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

Po


thetrailboss said:


> Right.  The whole thing led to a protracted lawsuit. Vail ended up winning in court. Not after both companies spent a ton on legal fees. It was a pretty black-and-white case – – you did not renew the contract by the deadline end of story. Additionally, Ian Cumming stepped in and negotiated the sale because his son had effed it up so badly.
> 
> Some people think that the reason why Ian bought Snowbird was so that his family would at least have some presence in Utah and to try to save face. There is no doubt that Ian spent a lot of money on improving Snowbird and he always made it clear that it was HIS resort and not John’s and not POWDR’s.  Since his death that has slowly changed.
> 
> And POWDR was always Ian’s money since John had none.  If you do your research you find out pretty quickly that almost all of POWDR’s resorts are leased and not owned. That is because they just did not have the resources. Killington is example one.  However, since Dad has died all of the sudden they have a ton of money for new lifts and shiny things such as at Killington.


powdr Corp leases killington? I did not know that, thought they owned it lock stock and barrel


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  The whole thing led to a protracted lawsuit. Vail ended up winning in court. Not after both companies spent a ton on legal fees. It was a pretty black-and-white case – – you did not renew the contract by the deadline end of story. Additionally, Ian Cumming stepped in and negotiated the sale because his son had effed it up so badly.
> 
> Some people think that the reason why Ian bought Snowbird was so that his family would at least have some presence in Utah and to try to save face. There is no doubt that Ian spent a lot of money on improving Snowbird and he always made it clear that it was HIS resort and not John’s and not POWDR’s.  Since his death that has slowly changed.
> 
> And POWDR was always Ian’s money since John had none.  If you do your research you find out pretty quickly that almost all of POWDR’s resorts are leased and not owned. That is because they just did not have the resources. Killington is example one.  However, since Dad has died all of the sudden they have a ton of money for new lifts and shiny things such as at Killington.


So you think snowbird is getting worse each year?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Po
> 
> powdr Corp leases killington? I did not know that, thought they owned it lock stock and barrel


SP Land (or something like that) owns the real estate and state lease.  POWDR operates the areas.

SP was leading very-long awaited and delayed base area project.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> So you think snowbird is getting worse each year?


The infrastructure has improved.  Service has worsened indeed.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 6, 2021)

Yesterday they were telling us Tuesday or Wednesday for polecat, now they are telling us Saturday. The polecat is now scheduled to open for the season on January 9, a full two weeks after the rain event.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yesterday they were telling us Tuesday or Wednesday for polecat, now they are telling us Saturday. The polecat is now scheduled to open for the season on January 9, a full two weeks after the rain event.



I get that the delay issues are awful. In defense of the folks who work hard to make snow, it's not like they've had a ton of COLD weather, with extended stretches of GOOD snowmaking temps since the Christmas Day washout.  

Mother nature has also played a roll in things when it comes to trail roll outs the last few weeks, and this generally zonal, West to East weather pattern we've been in for the last 10 days or so, and likely will be in for another 10 days or so, certainly is keeping the good snowmaking temps way up in Canada, as well as the storm track, especially over the next week or so, down through the mid Atlantic states.

We can all blame Vail for plenty this season. That isn't in question.  One does have to give them a bit of a pass when mother nature isn't giving good wet bulb temps for extended runs though


----------



## Mainer (Jan 6, 2021)

I’m guessing wildcat is waiting for attitash to get their shit together. If you keep opening trails and your sister mountain Right down the street with much better snowmaking has been neutral for weeks, it doesn’t look good. Im pretty sure attitash has no staff because they waited too long to hire, there is snow blown everywhere on Attitash. Just need to groom it out. There is a labor shortage in the valley, when u can make the same money or more inside, why bump chairs in the cold.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 6, 2021)

There is no shortage of snowmaking at attitash, at this point weather is not a factor. There are massive whales everywhere, some have been waiting weeks to be pushed out and skied. The shortage is grooming. I would guess the truth behind upper polecat is either a mechanical failure on one of the groomers or a call out.

I moved my day around to do some polecat lunch runs with the kids, bear was getting old and there is no time for the triple during lunch. We will report back on the polecat situation this afternoon.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 6, 2021)

Webcams are starting to appear at least in PA.  Would love to know the reasoning behind their delay. 

hunters is offline...


----------



## skiur (Jan 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> SP Land (or something like that) owns the real estate and state lease.  POWDR operates the areas.
> 
> SP was leading very-long awaited and delayed base area project.



Powdr also owns the land and real estate over at bear.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2021)

skiur said:


> Powdr also owns the land and real estate over at bear.


That's news to me.  It was SP Land that took over the real estate when ASC went under.  POWDR was brought in to run the resort.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 6, 2021)

Guns were running everywhere today at the cat: summit, upper polecat, cat track, middle wildcat and bobcat. I don't recollect them ever blowing top to bottom at once in the past. Assuming they keep this up and push the large whales out, snowmaking terrain should be close to 100% by mlk weekend. I would guess they move from upper polecat to upper catapult tomorrow.  Not sure i can fully explain it but today felt different, more like years past - albeit a month late.

Going to grab some lunch runs tomorrow at bear, hoping to see guns blasting and whales getting pushed out. Some movement at the yankee, getting ready for the weekend, would also be good.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Guns were running everywhere today at the cat: summit, upper polecat, cat track, middle wildcat and bobcat. I don't recollect them ever blowing top to bottom at once in the past. Assuming they keep this up and push the large whales out, snowmaking terrain should be close to 100% by mlk weekend. I would guess they move from upper polecat to upper catapult tomorrow.  Not sure i can fully explain it but today felt different, more like years past - albeit a month late.
> 
> Going to grab some lunch runs tomorrow at bear, hoping to see guns blasting and whales getting pushed out. Some movement at the yankee, getting ready for the weekend, would also be good.


I'm so happy to read this!


----------



## Zand (Jan 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I get that the delay issues are awful. In defense of the folks who work hard to make snow, it's not like they've had a ton of COLD weather, with extended stretches of GOOD snowmaking temps since the Christmas Day washout.
> 
> Mother nature has also played a roll in things when it comes to trail roll outs the last few weeks, and this generally zonal, West to East weather pattern we've been in for the last 10 days or so, and likely will be in for another 10 days or so, certainly is keeping the good snowmaking temps way up in Canada, as well as the storm track, especially over the next week or so, down through the mid Atlantic states.
> 
> We can all blame Vail for plenty this season. That isn't in question.  One does have to give them a bit of a pass when mother nature isn't giving good wet bulb temps for extended runs though


Thats just an excuse. Cannon has plenty of terrain open. Loon has plenty. Killington has plenty. Hell, Wachusett has 100% of their snowmaking terrain open and while I understand it isnt that big, it's certainly more acreage than Wildcat and Attitash each have open. Even Sugarbush is blowing Stowe away in open terrain. Mt Snow seems to be lagging behind Stratton which never used to happen.

Simply put, it's a Vail thing. The VT comparisons aren't as bad but what they're doing in NH is straight up shameful.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2021)

I'll put how little snowmaking terrain Vail had open today in NH in perspective.

I've skied Sunapee four of the past six days.  I've done so because they've had by far the most compelling terrain offering of the four NH Epic areas.  The skiing for what it is as just groomers has been pretty decent, even on Sunday when it was very busy. 

I skied everything Sunapee had open today save for the beginner quad and trail in under 90 minutes. That included a few five minute lift lines.  Shared some lift rides today with some locals and both said they can't recall a trail roll out so slow in even the worst of winters.  No lift lines it probably would have taken 1:10.

Looking at everything else open by Vail in the state and assuming no lift lines you could ski all of:

Wildcat in 30 minutes
Crotched in 45 minutes
Attitash in probably 1:20 and that's only because of the slow triple.

Combine all of the terrain open in the state and you could cover it all in only 3.5-4 hours!

On January 6th

It's pathetic in comparison to the competition. Pathetic


----------



## Vince (Jan 6, 2021)

Vail does suck. But the last few days Okemo has been well staffed with good surface conditions. They have cut back the snowmaking budget for sure. They claim 350 acres open but only have one trail open on Jackson Gore and 2 trails on the South side. Snowmaking mounds on the open trails are not as big as would normally be. Same size crowd as last year on this same week.
I think they got a memo from HQ on the covid stuff. The black ski mask with the holes is not good enough. The six person chair they ask you if you will take a single. Summit lodge they scan your ticket.
Thanks to all for the info saving me a trip to Attitash. Hopefully Wildcat gets it together for the spring


----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2021)

Decent report form both attitash and wildcat this AM: 



> Good morning! We are open today from 9AM - 4PM. Today will be sunny with temperatures topping out in the low 30s at the base. Snowmaking is back on line with Lower Saco, Ammo, Cathedral, Highway and Cub's Cut to Kachina to Bearfoot. We expect additional terrain and the Flying Yankee to be open for the weekend.





> *Thursday Jan. 7, 2021 Happy Thursday everyone. Today you will have 2 lifts and the snowbelt turning to access groomed, packed powder terrain for all abilities. Our snowmaking team continues working hard to cover more terrain. They are blanketing Polecat, Cattrack, Middle Wildcat and Bobcat right now. We hope to have Polecat (Top to Bottom) ready to ski and ride for Saturday, so get ready!. We've sent the grooming team out to work their magic on almost all of our open terrain. It should groomed, pack powder goodness.. Lessons and rentals are available too. Our team of fun, hardworking, friendly, awesome and dedicated employees ask that you help keep everyone safe. Wear your face covering, maintain social distancing and be kind to each other while visiting. We'll see you on the mountain.*


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## andrec10 (Jan 7, 2021)

And the snowmaking effort at Hunter is truly pathetic.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

andrec10 said:


> And the snowmaking effort at Hunter is truly pathetic.



It's 35f outside currently at my house near the north area..  Temps barley broke freezing last night..


----------



## cdskier (Jan 7, 2021)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's 35f outside currently at my house near the north area..  Temps barley broke freezing last night..


35? Is your thermometer in the sun by any chance? I'm seeing temps in the low 20s to mid 20s around the base of Hunter currently on several weather stations in the area. Summit temp is 19. But I also see many guns going on the webcam...so not really sure what else some people want them to do.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

Just checked my car thermometer as well..   It says 33 in the shade.    
From my window looking at the North side - only snowmaking up high.. probably Belt - nothing on lower mountain.


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2021)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Just checked my car thermometer as well..   It says 33 in the shade.
> From my window looking at the North side - only snowmaking up high.. probably Belt - nothing on lower mountain.


Weird...temps currently showing 26 at a couple sensors right near the base.

Still blasting all the way to the base on the main mountain:


----------



## JimG. (Jan 7, 2021)

Finally blowing Racer's I see.

kingslug has been complaining about that he'll be happy.


----------



## andrec10 (Jan 7, 2021)

Nice to see Racers finally getting some love.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Weird...temps currently showing 26 at a couple sensors right near the base.
> 
> Still blasting all the way to the base on the main mountain:
> View attachment 49982


Possible that one side of a mountain has different temps than another...   The top of their webpage says 31f....


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## kingslug (Jan 7, 2021)

Conditions at Hunter have been good..yea Racers is down for the count..but that will take some dollars to fix that system..and the west side..maybe feb?? Hopefully..


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## kingslug (Jan 7, 2021)

They fixed racers..cool..


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## cdskier (Jan 7, 2021)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Possible that one side of a mountain has different temps than another...   The top of their webpage says 31f....


Definitely possible.

As for the temp on the top of their website...who knows where Vail's standardized web template pulls that data from.


----------



## catskillman (Jan 7, 2021)

I never got any email or texts from Vail or Hunter all season.  
Today I get one at noon telling me that I have a reservation today at Hunter !  They are closed today !!!  Really


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## FBGM (Jan 7, 2021)

Let’s have a Coup and storm Broomfield Vail Office.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Let’s have a Coup and storm Brookfield Vail Office.


That is so 2021......


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jan 7, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Let’s have a Coup and storm Broomfield Vail Office.


Can I dress in a fur hat with horns?


----------



## gittist (Jan 7, 2021)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Can I dress in a fur hat with horns?


Sure, go ahead and enjoy yourself while you can.  I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if the entire country goes into lock down after Jan 20.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 7, 2021)

gittist said:


> Sure, go ahead and enjoy yourself while you can.  I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if the entire country goes into lock down after Jan 20.


Jesus fucking Christ here we go. I poked the hornets nest with one snarky off colored half a political comment.

I’ll go out my tinfoil hat on and stay away for a few days


----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2021)

After an incredibly divisive year we finally found one issue that unites us all, do we really need to poison our mutual hatred of vail with politics?


----------



## da-bum (Jan 7, 2021)

Blow some snow in Hunter North, how many times can one do Overlook if one wants to stay away from the crowd of the main mountain.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 7, 2021)

West side even better..really spread them out.
At Gore they are doing it right..almost all lifts running..no lines up top..


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 7, 2021)

According to one of the Attitash Twitter feeds we may be seeing the Yankee this weekend!!!

“Our snowmaking team is taking every opportunity to put the finishing touches on Upper/Lower Saco, Upper/Lower Cathedral, and Ammonoosuc. If Mother Nature plays fair we plan to add those trails and the Flying Yankee for the weekend.”


----------



## njdiver85 (Jan 7, 2021)

One thing is certain: Vail is stepping up the marketing maybe to appeal to all the complaints about lack of snowmaking?


----------



## abc (Jan 7, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> One thing is certain: Vail is stepping up the marketing maybe to appeal to all the complaints about lack of snowmaking?


Funny, I thought I read "Vail is stepping up the snowmaking...". 

Then I double back and read... "stepping up the marketing"!


----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> According to one of the Attitash Twitter feeds we may be seeing the Yankee this weekend!!!
> 
> “Our snowmaking team is taking every opportunity to put the finishing touches on Upper/Lower Saco, Upper/Lower Cathedral, and Ammonoosuc. If Mother Nature plays fair we plan to add those trails and the Flying Yankee for the weekend.”


Overheard yankee may run tomorrow, also with the yankee online, there are no backup scanners. They were blowing on cathedral today, going to be some death cookies tomorrow if they do push it out tonight, will help ski them out over lunch tomorrow. Also blowing on cubs cut and bearfoot, production on bearfoot looked minimal but temps were marginal. I would have to think the Kachina trails are next on that side, imagine owning a seven figure slopeside house that is ski in/ski out < 2 months / year.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> One thing is certain: Vail is stepping up the marketing maybe to appeal to all the complaints about lack of snowmaking?


Where and what are they marketing?


----------



## Mainer (Jan 7, 2021)

Latest opening of Yankee since it was installed. Haven’t opened a new trail in two weeks If


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## drjeff (Jan 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Funny, I thought I read "Vail is stepping up the snowmaking...".
> 
> Then I double back and read... "stepping up the marketing"!



Not sure if the seeming snowmaking ramp up is due to temps, the social media shellacking they're taking, or the next big Holiday Weekend, MLK Weekend, in 8 days... 

Maybe a little bit of all 3


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 7, 2021)

Crotched was blowing snow all day today: CM park, UFO, Equinox and finally Milky Way. Blastoff was hit overnight but not ready. Should be getting much closer to 100 percent soon once done with these, and at least the upper pond looks full. Hopefully with Milky Way the entire layout will finally be skied from the Rocket. WAY late for that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Guns were running everywhere today at the cat: summit, upper polecat, cat track, middle wildcat and bobcat. I don't recollect them ever blowing top to bottom at once in the past. Assuming they keep this up and push the large whales out, snowmaking terrain should be close to 100% by mlk weekend. I would guess they move from upper polecat to upper catapult tomorrow.  Not sure i can fully explain it but today felt different, more like years past - albeit a month late.
> 
> Going to grab some lunch runs tomorrow at bear, hoping to see guns blasting and whales getting pushed out. Some movement at the yankee, getting ready for the weekend, would also be good.



Depends on what you consider 100% of snowmaking terrain is

All of Catapult,
Middle Wildcat, Alley Cat, Bobcat, Cheetah and Wild Kitten by MLK?


thebigo said:


> Overheard yankee may run tomorrow, also with the yankee online, there are no backup scanners. They were blowing on cathedral today, going to be some death cookies tomorrow if they do push it out tonight, will help ski them out over lunch tomorrow. Also blowing on cubs cut and bearfoot, production on bearfoot looked minimal but temps were marginal. I would have to think the Kachina trails are next on that side, imagine owning a seven figure slopeside house that is ski in/ski out < 2 months / year.



Not just for those seven figure homes, but they need Abanaki Chair with the insane lift lines they have on weekends. Both Yankee and Abanaki need to be open for me to consider going there on a weekend.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2021)

thebigo said:


> After an incredibly divisive year we finally found one issue that unites us all, do we really need to poison our mutual hatred of vail with politics?



Hating Vail really is the one thing that brings us all together.


----------



## Edd (Jan 7, 2021)

I bet this thread contains more Attitash posts than the entirety of all other threads on AZ.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2021)

Does anyone who used to work in mountain ops have any idea how much money Vail's likely saving at XYZ resort by drastically cutting back on snowmaking to date?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does anyone who used to work in mountain ops have any idea how much money Vail's likely saving at XYZ resort by drastically cutting back on snowmaking to date?


Ten years ago (!) I got inside info from a reliable source that SB easily spent $1,000 per hour in equipment, labor, utilities for snowmaking operations.  So add to that and it gives you an idea that it is a significant amount of money.  That said, the WHOLE point of Epic was to bankroll enough $$$ to pay for these operations.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Depends on what you consider 100% of snowmaking terrain is
> 
> All of Catapult,
> Middle Wildcat, Alley Cat, Bobcat, Cheetah and Wild Kitten by MLK?
> ...


Fair point. I believe they have been blowing on bobcat since Tuesday and middle wildcat since Wednesday. Upper catapult has to be the top priority once polecat is done, then wild kitten. Temps look decent through next week but I would guess lower catapult and alley are a stretch for the holiday weekend. Forgot about middle catapult, cannot even picture the pipes, they must be on the skiers right?

I am guessing the attitash crowds will dissipate as wildcat begins to offer more than one trail and beginner terrain. Wildcat was deserted over the holiday week.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Ten years ago (!) I got inside info from a reliable source that SB easily spent $1,000 per hour in equipment, labor, utilities for snowmaking operations.  So add to that and it gives you an idea that it is a significant amount of money.  That said, *the WHOLE point of Epic was to bankroll enough $$$ to pay for these operations.*



You'd think the $500 BILLION they just got in convertible notes for, _"general corporate purposes"_ could cover some snowmaking. I guess making snow isnt, "general" enough. lol


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2021)

Yes skiers right for Middle Catapult pipes. They don't blow a ton on it, but do a little bit most years.  I think a fair amount of snow that gets made on Middle Wildcat ends up blowing over to it and Middle Wildcat sees more snowmaking than most trails on the mountain because that stretch can get fairly skied off, so it requires a resurface from time to time.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 8, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does anyone who used to work in mountain ops have any idea how much money Vail's likely saving at XYZ resort by drastically cutting back on snowmaking to date?


One does have to remember that they did have an early melt out after Thanksgiving, then again the Christmas Day monsoon to deal with.

Looks like they're strategy may be to start ramping up to "normal" level production when temps are GOOD (not marginal unless absolutely necessary, but GOOD) once you get into that 7-10 day window ahead of a holiday period.

The true grasp of things will likely be what happens after MLK Weekend.... Do we start seeing the majority of hoses hauled off the turrets and put away for the season? Or will they make snow, when the weather windows are good, especially on more than just a select few core trails.

For perspective with how the weather has also played a roll, one has to remember that even Killington really just started working on Superstar within the last week. That is something that pre World Cup typically usually started in the week or so before Christmas.

Multiple resurfacing efforts, some quite major, often in not the best of temps, certainly has been the case more than extended windows of GOOD temps that allow for rapid expansion across most of ski country thus far this season


----------



## RichT (Jan 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Jesus ****** Christ here we go. I poked the hornets nest with one snarky off colored half a political comment.
> 
> I’ll go out my tinfoil hat on and stay away for a few days


Really??? What would your mother say about this language from you!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 8, 2021)

Just skinned Sunapee, they were blowing quite a bit. As always nicely groomed out.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 8, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You'd think the $500 BILLION they just got in convertible notes for, _"general corporate purposes"_ could cover some snowmaking. I guess making snow isnt, "general" enough. lol


Million not billion.  Still should be enough.  1.7 billion in cash and short term credit available.  Probably enough to bury Huntah west and North


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Just skinned Sunapee, they were blowing quite a bit. As always nicely groomed out.


I've had no issues with Sunapee or Crotched this year skiing has been pretty good


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 8, 2021)

other than the angy mob "pressuring" local management to open a week after the planned opening, and after a 10" snow storm.  No complaints here.  Snowmaking has been strong and operations are seemingly normal.   When the hard shut down in mid march comes I'll be pissed again, especially when there will be snow on the hill, but it is what it is...


----------



## FBGM (Jan 8, 2021)

RichT said:


> Really??? What would your mother say about this language from you!


Listen, we are here to come together and bash Vail. Not talk about moms. This is a turning point in AZ history where 95% of the site can agree on a topic of hatred. Legendary. 

Plus, your mom likes what comes out of my mouth - I can make dat thang whistle!!!


----------



## kingslug (Jan 8, 2021)




----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 8, 2021)

Attitash announced that the Yankee and Cathedral will be open tomorrow! That's going to help distribute (and move people. man I hate the triple!) crowds!


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 8, 2021)

off topic, but New England ski resort news has an article on it, how killington stopped construction on their new lodge till next winter.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 8, 2021)

Jesus  now Vail cut back lodge construction at Killington


----------



## thebigo (Jan 8, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash announced that the Yankee and Cathedral will be open tomorrow! That's going to help distribute (and move people. man I hate the triple!) crowds!


Cathedral was pushed out when we drove by this afternoon, I would have to think highway is opening if the yankee is going to run. They had switched to PT, not sure how far up, also appeared to be blowing saco. Guns have been running for days on bearfoot with very little production.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 8, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Jesus  now Vail cut back lodge construction at Killington


lol


----------



## RichT (Jan 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Listen, we are here to come together and bash Vail. Not talk about moms. This is a turning point in AZ history where 95% of the site can agree on a topic of hatred. Legendary.
> 
> Plus, your mom likes what comes out of my mouth - I can make dat thang whistle!!!


Immature ass................


----------



## drjeff (Jan 8, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Jesus  now Vail cut back lodge construction at Killington


Rob Katz uses his super duper screw Powdr zen again... The force is strong in that young Jedi!!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Million not billion.


 Late night error, I was debating $500 Million and 1/2 Billion and that's what I got.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Rob Katz uses his super duper screw Powdr zen again... The force is strong in that young Jedi!!


Good one!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> off topic, but New England ski resort news has an article on it, how killington stopped construction on their new lodge till next winter.


Money I assume?  Probably a direct result of bad weather in the East and West, a terrible season at Snowbird, and John Cumming's amazingly bad business decisions.  So they will resume construction this summer?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 8, 2021)

Article says next winter


thetrailboss said:


> Money I assume?  Probably a direct result of bad weather in the East and West, a terrible season at Snowbird, and John Cumming's amazingly bad business decisions.  So they will resume construction this summer?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Article says next winter


Hm.  Interesting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

And you all will love this one.  I got on my last chair tonight with a guy who told me he worked for PCMR as an instructor.  "Vail sucks", he said.  

Then he got a call from his buddy.

"Hey how are things in Vermont?"  He asked.  Then he leaned over towards me and said, "my buddy works at Mount Snow.  Man, oh man, you should hear about how effed up things are on the East Coast with Vail!"


----------



## skiberg (Jan 8, 2021)

What a rip off. Vail is obviously choosing not to make snow. Obviously cut budget. Screw them. Buy Icon. Loon killington going for it. I will never buy Epic again.


----------



## abc (Jan 8, 2021)

Struggling to get a Refund From Vail Resorts - The New York Times      








						Help! Despite State Travel Restrictions, I Can’t Get My Ski Pass Refunded
					

A reader writes in, saying he can’t ski because he can’t get into the state. It’s a very 2020 — wait, 2021 — travel predicament.




					www.nytimes.com
				



“I could very easily go to Mount Snow and just say that I’ve quarantined,” Mr. Morse said when I called him this week. “But that is not helping solve this issue. That is why the numbers are as bad as they are.” He feels that *Vail Resorts is punishing pass holders who are trying to do the right thing*, he added.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> And you all will love this one.  I got on my last chair tonight with a guy who told me he worked for PCMR as an instructor.  "Vail sucks", he said.
> 
> Then he got a call from his buddy.
> 
> "Hey how are things in Vermont?"  He asked.  Then he leaned over towards me and said, "my buddy works at Mount Snow.  Man, oh man, you should hear about how effed up things are on the East Coast with Vail!"


What do the Brighton passholders think of boyne? I know they are only building lifts at big sky, although not sure Brighton needs any lifts, but do people piss and moan about them operationally? Do they actually listen to their customers and give a shit?


----------



## skiberg (Jan 8, 2021)

Icon is committed. Killington. Loon. Making snow. Trying to please customers.   Vail does not care. Buy icon only way to make them get it. Cancel vail


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Icon is committed. Killington. Loon. Making snow. Trying to please customers.   Vail does not care. Buy icon only way to make them get it. Cancel vail


Killington is run by POWDR.  Loon is owned by Boyne.  Alterra (who sells IKON) owns neither.  Alterra DOES own Stratton, Tremblant, and Sugarbush in New England now.  IKON is only a partner pass for these resorts.  

As to IKON being committed, well, it depends.  Solitude (their owned resort) has really been piss poor this year in terms of snowmaking and grooming.  

IKON is good for some consumers--those that want to (and can) travel and don't want to be committed to one area.  It was a nuclear response to Epic.  Honestly, it was overkill and has ruined skiing out here.  At least Boyne, Jackson Hole, and a few others recognize this and are requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.  They realized that they were losing passholders to IKON.  Honestly, if you buy a pass to a resort they owe it to you to give you access. 

 IKON and Epic can both disappear as far as I am concerned.  Glad it works out for you.  Apparently crowds and parking are not an issue for you.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What do the Brighton passholders think of boyne? I know they are only building lifts at big sky, although not sure Brighton needs any lifts, but do people piss and moan about them operationally? Do they actually listen to their customers and give a shit?


My twilight season pass at Brighton this year was $199.00.  Despite that low amount, they have treated me like a King.  So far, they were first to open, and on that weekend were for passholders only.  Same familiar faces.  Staff treat me and others well.  Locals love the place.  Laid back.  They also have required IKON users to make a reservation so that has kept crowds manageable and made it clear that if you buy a pass you get access.  I get treated like a passholder.  They appreciate my business.  I've easily spent about $300 on other things so far this season (food, gear, logo stuff).  Passholders are happy.  They did the right thing.  Infrastructure, for now, is fine.  Crest is getting old.  As is Great Western.  They don't break down though.  If anything, they have been slowly doing more activities and more in the off-season.  It is still laid back. 

Solitude is a mess.  Locals hate it now.

As to Alta/Bird, Alta has been better this season than in the past.  Snowbird has been a trainwreck.  Three years ago, the last "bad" season snow-wise, Cumming cut employee benefits and shortly thereafter their good staff all left.  Services have gone downhill.  Ski School now is terrible--we and our friends (a total of 6 kids, 3 of which did 10 weeks of the program) dropped ski camp this year.  That is about $10,000 right there gone.  I love the terrain too much.  Hence why I renewed, but the amount of money we have spent at Snowbird is next to nothing.  Same for Alta.  Snowbird used to do stuff for passholders, but not now.  Pretty bad.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

abc said:


> Struggling to get a Refund From Vail Resorts - The New York Times
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to read this article.


----------



## skiberg (Jan 9, 2021)

thats unfortunate to hear about Solitude. As for snowmaking, out west it’s a whole different world. They just can’t compete with east coast snowmaking so expectations need to be  tempered. Of course there a good reason why that is And everybody out East wishes they had such a “problem”. I recognize that Ikon is a conglomeration but either they have an overall strategy Or the independent resorts are trying to be more directly competitive and snowmaking is a strategy. I think it’s the public nature of Epic. They need to show a bottom line. They need to prepare p/l statements and earnings reports and to attract further investors. People investing in Epic don’t necessarily care about skiing, only profitability, and it shows.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 9, 2021)

I know this is just pertaining to my own Mount Snow "bubble", which is seemingly different than other Eastern Vail resort experiences this year by the sound of it.

Snowmaking wise, with what they're working on now, once that's done in probably the next 48hrs, with the exception of Fallen Timbers on the North face, middle exhibition on the main face, and the half pipe area, they would of made snow, and in decent amounts, they will of made snow on all of their snowmaking terrain before MLK Weekend, which in any season, is the bench mark that I go by.

Just my perspective based only on Mount Snow this year.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)

Attitash stopped loading two singles on a quad today. There is a dude in a stowe coat loading the yankee and doing mask enforcement, apparently he is above all the gms in the east.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 9, 2021)

on my way into deer valley today.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 9, 2021)

45 / 127  stowe
99 TRAILS OPEN of 111  SB
says a lot....


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Money I assume?  Probably a direct result of bad weather in the East and West, a terrible season at Snowbird, and John Cumming's amazingly bad business decisions.  So they will resume construction this summer?





thetrailboss said:


> Killington is run by POWDR.  Loon is owned by Boyne.  Alterra (who sells IKON) owns neither.  Alterra DOES own Stratton, Tremblant, and Sugarbush in New England now.  IKON is only a partner pass for these resorts.
> 
> As to IKON being committed, well, it depends.  Solitude (their owned resort) has really been piss poor this year in terms of snowmaking and grooming.
> 
> ...


My guess from reading Chris diamonds books, alterra and vail aren’t the competitors people think they are, mr diamonds opinion is that alterra is probably set up to do a public stock offering and aspen/ ksl crowd would cash out with big bucks, that’s one of the reasons they unlike vail tended to pay a premium for the resorts they bought, they weren’t planning on holding the resorts long term, COVID 19 is a big     monkey wrench in that scenario, the big question can they survive the debt issues if they cannot do a stock offering, the way alterra set themselves up is a why I always thought especially in this environment they were far weaker than vail, all of the big four will struggle, like all ski areas, but I think vail is the strongest.  Another weakness with ikon pass, lots of money is going to the powdrs, boyne, Jackson holes etc, epic really only has two properties on their pass in the us that they don’t own, telluride, sun valley.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)

WILDCAT WEATHER FORECAST​*Happy Saturday Jan. 9, 2021. WE LOST POWER AND ALL LIFTS ARE ON HOLD. *


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> My guess from reading Chris diamonds books, alterra and vail aren’t the competitors people think they are, mr diamonds opinion is that alterra is probably set up to do a public stock offering and aspen/ ksl crowd would cash out with big bucks, that’s one of the reasons they unlike vail tended to pay a premium for the resorts they bought, they weren’t planning on holding the resorts long term, COVID 19 is a big     monkey wrench in that scenario, the big question can they survive the debt issues if they cannot do a stock offering, the way alterra set themselves up is a why I always thought especially in this environment they were far weaker than vail, all of the big four will struggle, like all ski areas, but I think vail is the strongest.  Another weakness with ikon pass, lots of money is going to the powdrs, boyne, Jackson holes etc, epic really only has two properties on their pass in the us that they don’t own, telluride, sun valley.


Wow, those are really good points.  Makes sense in terms of Alterra and how it was set up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

thebigo said:


> WILDCAT WEATHER FORECAST​*Happy Saturday Jan. 9, 2021. WE LOST POWER AND ALL LIFTS ARE ON HOLD. *


So...is this legit?  

Wow, what a terrible season for Vail.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I know this is just pertaining to my own Mount Snow "bubble", which is seemingly different than other Eastern Vail resort experiences this year by the sound of it.
> 
> Snowmaking wise, with what they're working on now, once that's done in probably the next 48hrs, with the exception of Fallen Timbers on the North face, middle exhibition on the main face, and the half pipe area, they would of made snow, and in decent amounts, they will of made snow on all of their snowmaking terrain before MLK Weekend, which in any season, is the bench mark that I go by.
> 
> Just my perspective based only on Mount Snow this year.


Makes sense.  Mount Snow = big numbers for Vail.  Give them the attention and funnel your passholders there.  I think that may be the thinking.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

skiberg said:


> thats unfortunate to hear about Solitude. As for snowmaking, out west it’s a whole different world. They just can’t compete with east coast snowmaking so expectations need to be  tempered. Of course there a good reason why that is And everybody out East wishes they had such a “problem”. I recognize that Ikon is a conglomeration but either they have an overall strategy Or the independent resorts are trying to be more directly competitive and snowmaking is a strategy. I think it’s the public nature of Epic. They need to show a bottom line. They need to prepare p/l statements and earnings reports and to attract further investors. People investing in Epic don’t necessarily care about skiing, only profitability, and it shows.


True about expectations.  That said, as FBGM and others noted, Solitude advertised a November opening then at the last minute said, "oops, can't do it, we'll get back to you" and left everyone hanging for almost a month.  Why?  Their snowmaking system failed and needed new components at the most crucial part of the season.  Alterra sat back and dragged it out instead of quickly fixing it.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)

Difficult to show the entire line but the triple and yankee lines are running into each other. Triple had to be an hour plus between entering the li e and unloading at top.


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Makes sense.  Mount Snow = big numbers for Vail.  Give them the attention and funnel your passholders there.  I think that may be the thinking.


You would think Hunter would be good for Vail too, but they sure don't treat it that way.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Makes sense.  Mount Snow = big numbers for Vail.  Give them the attention and funnel your passholders there.  I think that may be the thinking.


It makes sense, but there are some skiers you couldn't pay to go to Mt Snow on weekends.  I would be one of those.


----------



## RichT (Jan 9, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> You would think Hunter would be good for Vail too, but they sure don't treat it that way.


19 degrees this morning and minimal snowmaking. AND with Rip's Return open with a mix of rocks on a 4 in base!


----------



## kingslug (Jan 9, 2021)

its why i was scrolling through various Vail reports this morning. The biggest glaring example is Stowe which I compared to SB. They have only half as many runs open. 
Its just something we will have to deal with if we want to be at those places. Next season...have to decide.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I know this is just pertaining to my own Mount Snow "bubble", which is seemingly different than other Eastern Vail resort experiences this year by the sound of it.
> 
> Snowmaking wise, with what they're working on now, once that's done in probably the next 48hrs, with the exception of Fallen Timbers on the North face, middle exhibition on the main face, and the half pipe area, they would of made snow, and in decent amounts, they will of made snow on all of their snowmaking terrain before MLK Weekend, which in any season, is the bench mark that I go by.
> 
> Just my perspective based only on Mount Snow this year.


I need to slightly ammend this..

Fallen Timbers has had snow made on it.  Technically they're making snow now in the half pipe area, albeit it's only 1 fangun at the top of it today.

So it's basically just middle exhibition they have yet to make snow on.

And adding a doubles lane, in addition to the singles lane and main queue lanes for the Bluebird was a nice addition this weekend!


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I know this is just pertaining to my own Mount Snow "bubble", which is seemingly different than other Eastern Vail resort experiences this year by the sound of it.
> 
> Snowmaking wise, with what they're working on now, once that's done in probably the next 48hrs, with the exception of Fallen Timbers on the North face, middle exhibition on the main face, and the half pipe area, they would of made snow, and in decent amounts, they will of made snow on all of their snowmaking terrain before MLK Weekend, which in any season, is the bench mark that I go by.
> 
> Just my perspective based only on Mount Snow this year.


The weather has certainly dealt the northeast a bad hand, however the past couple of years since the snowmaking upgrade, they seemed to have most everything done with the exception of a few by Christmas week.  Seems like they're behind this year, but again that can also be attributed to the weather.   A better barometer will be what they do after MLK and in February with resurfacing.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I need to slightly ammend this..
> 
> Fallen Timbers has had snow made on it.  Technically they're making snow now in the half pipe area, albeit it's only 1 fangun at the top of it today.
> 
> ...


What is the point of the doubles lane? Are they loading two sets of doubles on the six-pack?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 9, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is the point of the doubles lane? Are they loading two sets of doubles on the six-pack?


The Bluebird can take a double and a single in a socially distanced way.

This let's them send 3 up per chair (if both parties agree - and the vast majority that I saw and experienced today did) rather than just 2 singles


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It makes sense, but there are some skiers you couldn't pay to go to Mt Snow on weekends.  I would be one of those.


The analytics did not catch that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> its why i was scrolling through various Vail reports this morning. The biggest glaring example is Stowe which I compared to SB. They have only half as many runs open.
> Its just something we will have to deal with if we want to be at those places. Next season...have to decide.


Wow.  Pre-Vail it was the other way around.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> You would think Hunter would be good for Vail too, but they sure don't treat it that way.


Again, must be the analytics did not catch that.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The Bluebird can take a double and a single in a socially distanced way.
> 
> This let's them send 3 up per chair (if both parties agree - and the vast majority that I saw and experienced today did) rather than just 2 singles


Just as an FYI, wildcat/crotch/attitash/sunapee have been loading two singles on a quad all year. Today there were new signs that per updated guidance, guests are only permitted to ride with members of their own household or something to that accord. I will take a picture tomorrow. It was enforced, I tried to load yankee with another single and was told that it is no longer allowed. 

To me it is far safer to be on the opposite end of a moving high speed quad than in a mass of people waiting for a lift but I will of course play by the rules.


----------



## skiberg (Jan 9, 2021)

Can we still get any money back on Epic. I don’t think so, correct?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Can we still get any money back on Epic. I don’t think so, correct?


So I read the NYT article.  What a joke.  "Stay-at-home orders are not the same as mandatory quarantines because you can still go skiing if you want."  

It's not good to be compared to the insurance industry.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

Skiing in the pandemic causes concerns for businesses in southern Vermont
					

Some southern Vermont businesses have closed or switched to curbside pickup. They are worried out of staters going skiing will bring coronavirus to their community. Olivia Lyons has more.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So I read the NYT article.  What a joke.  "Stay-at-home orders are not the same as mandatory quarantines because you can still go skiing if you want."
> 
> It's not good to be compared to the insurance industry.


Sucks if you're looking for a refund, but they certainly are different. That doesn't mean you have to renew, or ever hand Vail another penny in the future.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 45 / 127  stowe
> 99 TRAILS OPEN of 111  SB
> says a lot....



Yes, but don't forget that SB has also been very lenient on opening their natural terrain for a long time while I feel like I remember Stowe being more conservative even pre-Vail. It would be interesting to compare open snow-making terrain between the two resorts. SB really only has a handful of routes left...which is pretty impressive considering their snow-making capacity isn't that great and the weather has been crappy. I feel like with just a quick look it seems like Stowe is further behind, but I'm not familiar enough with what trails have snow-making and would usually be done by now, etc. If I remember correctly, Stowe's snow-making capacity (in GPM) is higher than SB after the upgrade they did several years ago. If they're behind SB in snow-making, that's definitely saying a lot.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> My guess from reading Chris diamonds books, alterra and vail aren’t the competitors people think they are, mr diamonds opinion is that alterra is probably set up to do a public stock offering and aspen/ ksl crowd would cash out with big bucks, that’s one of the reasons they unlike vail tended to pay a premium for the resorts they bought, they weren’t planning on holding the resorts long term, COVID 19 is a big     monkey wrench in that scenario, the big question can they survive the debt issues if they cannot do a stock offering, the way alterra set themselves up is a why I always thought especially in this environment they were far weaker than vail, all of the big four will struggle, like all ski areas, but I think vail is the strongest.  Another weakness with ikon pass, lots of money is going to the powdrs, boyne, Jackson holes etc, epic really only has two properties on their pass in the us that they don’t own, telluride, sun valley.



I'm not so sure I agree on the Alterra being setup for a public stock offering. From the way I've heard Rusty talk, I get the impression they like the flexibility they have with being private (of course I could be completely wrong). I also don't necessarily agree that they're in the weakest as we have absolutely no insight into their financial situation since they're privately held. I think in a year like this, being private can actually be an asset (depending on who your owners/investors are). If they're people that have deep pockets and care about skiing itself, they very well could be more willing to not worry so much about losing money this year. Whereas a public company like Vail has to try to keep stockholders happy no matter what. The stockholders don't care that there are restrictions on skiing due to COVID.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not so sure I agree on the Alterra being setup for a public stock offering. From the way I've heard Rusty talk, I get the impression they like the flexibility they have with being private (of course I could be completely wrong). I also don't necessarily agree that they're in the weakest as we have absolutely no insight into their financial situation since they're privately held. I think in a year like this, being private can actually be an asset (depending on who your owners/investors are). If they're people that have deep pockets and care about skiing itself, they very well could be more willing to not worry so much about losing money this year. Whereas a public company like Vail has to try to keep stockholders happy no matter what. The stockholders don't care that there are restrictions on skiing due to COVID.


True.  Consider though that the two owners are KSL (investment group from Denver IIRC) and Crown (owners of Aspen).  So I can see how if they were playing short term than selling may make sense.


----------



## Teleskier (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Just as an FYI, wildcat/crotch/attitash/sunapee have been loading two singles on a quad all year. Today there were new signs that per updated guidance, guests are only permitted to ride with members of their own household or something to that accord. I will take a picture tomorrow. It was enforced, I tried to load yankee with another single and was told that it is no longer allowed.
> 
> To me it is far safer to be on the opposite end of a moving high speed quad than in a mass of people waiting for a lift but I will of course play by the rules.


That's great news. It was not the case at my first (and only so far) day at Sunapee. The overwhelmed and untrained staff didn't handle COVID precautions well at all under the crush of (seemingly) unexpected skiers on a powder day. Sounds like they are catching on with better operating rules by your observations. Maybe there's hope I can leave the mountain feeling good about the day, versus involuntary mind tallying what were the many risk incursions I faced during the day and "was it worth it?"


----------



## LonghornSkier (Jan 10, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> That's great news. It was not the case at my first (and only so far) day at Sunapee. The overwhelmed and untrained staff didn't handle COVID precautions well at all under the crush of (seemingly) unexpected skiers on a powder day. Sounds like they are catching on with better operating rules by your observations. Maybe there's hope I can leave the mountain feeling good about the day, versus involuntary mind tallying what were the many risk incursions I faced during the day and "was it worth it?"


Sitting five feet apart from each other in an open air, breezy environ for five minutes isn’t a “risk incursion.”


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Sitting five feet apart from each other in an open air, breezy environ for five minutes isn’t a “risk incursion.”


Matters which way the breeze is blowing...


----------



## abc (Jan 10, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Matters which way the breeze is blowing...


Yes and no.

With the breeze, the droplets will be greatly diluted


----------



## thebigo (Jan 10, 2021)

I am a software engineer, not an epidemiologist, but I wear the same mask on the chair that I wear to market basket. I cannot believe that I am more at risk on a high speed quad than waiting in line to check out my groceries.


----------



## abc (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I am a software engineer, not an epidemiologist, but I wear the same mask on the chair that I wear to market basket. I cannot believe that I am more at risk on a high speed quad than waiting in line to check out my groceries.


How long is your wait in the grocery checkout line? And how often do you go grocery shopping? 

Outdoor, in general, are much less riskier than indoors. But it's not zero risk. So it's a matter of how much you want to push the "low risk". Do it frequent and long enough, it'll match the risk of a rare visit to the supermarket.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 10, 2021)

SB definately is very different from Stowe as far as natural trails..But Stowe has become more conservative..im trying to remember from last season. Many local were complaining about it. I had nothing to compare as we had only been going there 2 years..No idea what is going on there now..
I like what Gore is doing though..very good operation.


----------



## RichT (Jan 10, 2021)

lets go this route, if i'm on a chair with people and we don't speak, cough or sneeze, how would we be in any danger?


----------



## kendo (Jan 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes, but don't forget that SB has also been very lenient on opening their natural terrain for a long time while I feel like I remember Stowe being more conservative even pre-Vail. It would be interesting to compare open snow-making terrain between the two resorts. SB really only has a handful of routes left...which is pretty impressive considering their snow-making capacity isn't that great and the weather has been crappy. I feel like with just a quick look it seems like Stowe is further behind, but I'm not familiar enough with what trails have snow-making and would usually be done by now, etc. If I remember correctly, Stowe's snow-making capacity (in GPM) is higher than SB after the upgrade they did several years ago. If they're behind SB in snow-making, that's definitely saying a lot.


Stowe definitely further behind this year.   Stowe - Sugarbush quick comparison:

*Trails open:*

Today 1/10/21
Stowe 47/127  37%
SB 99/111  90%

Last year 1/4/20
Stowe 81/127  63%
SB  105/111  95%


*Snowmaking coverage: * 
Stowe 83%
SB 70%


Stowe was slow to open Nosedive and Gondolier last year and ultra conservative with opening/closing natural trails the past couple years.  Today there are "3" trails open off the Gondola - actually just Perry Merrill TTB.  Report says Gondolier getting TTB snowmaking now.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 10, 2021)

Afraid of this happening...there are solutions though..


----------



## kendo (Jan 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Afraid of this happening...there are solutions though..


yep.  We need to coax WinS out of retirement to be Vail VP eastern resorts.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Jan 10, 2021)

abc said:


> How long is your wait in the grocery checkout line? And how often do you go grocery shopping?
> 
> Outdoor, in general, are much less riskier than indoors. But it's not zero risk. So it's a matter of how much you want to push the "low risk". Do it frequent and long enough, it'll match the risk of a rare visit to the supermarket.


I have seen lines at Market basket 10 carts deep.  When you are shopping Market Basket you are bumper to bumper with other carts also everyone is touching everything in site.  Groceries stores are as dirty as old pay phones.  I think you are much safer on a chairlift outdoors.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 10, 2021)

Or we just change mountains..SB is 45 minutes away...
Will decide next season once this is hopefully over..
One could compare stowe to hunter and gore to Sb
Hunter one main lift..stowe the same( yea they have the gondi..)
SB several lifts spread out..gore the same
And im liking gore a lot this season..


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Or we just change mountains..SB is 45 minutes away...
> Will decide next season once this is hopefully over..
> One could compare stowe to hunter and gore to Sb
> Hunter one main lift..stowe the same( yea they have the gondi..)
> ...


One could compare stowe to hunter


----------



## kingslug (Jan 10, 2021)

Knew that would get a laugh..the layout..not ..anything even remotely else..


----------



## Mainer (Jan 10, 2021)

No guns running at wildcat today. 20’s when I got there and left. 2 runs open. They really just don’t care


----------



## thebigo (Jan 10, 2021)

Mainer said:


> No guns running at wildcat today. 20’s when I got there and left. 2 runs open. They really just don’t care


They haven't started upper catapult? Damn, that is disappointing. Did cat track look deep enough to push out?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> They haven't started upper catapult? Damn, that is disappointing. Did cat track look deep enough to push out?


Mt snow was fantastic today, running some guns today, which I saw as I drove up, unless it was wind blowing snow, ?  stayed on the frontside, no guns running on the two trails I skied though, not a big Sunday crowd which surprised me


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> They haven't started upper catapult? Damn, that is disappointing. Did cat track look deep enough to push out?


Still think we will see all snowmaking terrain by MLK? 

I can't believe they still only offered two ttb trails plus beginner area today.  Pathetic


----------



## thebigo (Jan 10, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Still think we will see all snowmaking terrain by MLK?
> 
> I can't believe they still only offered two ttb trails plus beginner area today.  Pathetic


Guess I was wrong about that one. There is absolutely no excuse for wildcat to not be blowing today. If there was a mechanical issue, they should post it on their website.

Attitash was blowing today in very marginal temperatures, think my car said 36f. They got the cubs cut route open. The trail from the top of the abenaki was groomed with no way to ski it. Tripod guns going on upper Kachina and falls, tower guns on lower Kachina, fan guns on thads. I was at bear all day but also heard they were pushing out lower saco to tie that side in.

Doesnt make sense that attitash is putting in the effort with nothing at wildcat. Hey vail, how about some communication?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So I read the NYT article.  What a joke.  *"Stay-at-home orders are not the same as mandatory quarantines *because you can still go skiing if you want."



Full quote: 

*“*_*We certainly apologize for any confusion, but we were intentional in specifying ‘mandatory stay-at-home orders’ versus ‘travel restrictions’ on our website and in communications with guests.”*_

To get out of having to give refunds, Vail is literally using the Bill Clinton defense.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 10, 2021)

I think attitash was blowing today because they realize how bad they’re looking. My friend who skied there yesterday said he averaged about a run an hour. Biggest line today I’ve ever seen at wildcat. Maybe open tomcat when it’s like that. Ghost town after noon.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Sucks if you're looking for a refund, but they certainly are different. That doesn't mean you have to renew, or ever hand Vail another penny in the future.



Couldnt you just say you broke your leg?   Oh got vertigo?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not so sure I agree on the Alterra being setup for a public stock offering. From the way I've heard Rusty talk, I get the impression they like the flexibility they have with being private (of course I could be completely wrong).



I find it hard to believe KSL & HCC arent going to be looking for a liquidity event for Alterra.  I've always assumed as much.  Frankly, now would be a decent time to do so via the SPAC craziness.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 10, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I think attitash was blowing today because they realize how bad they’re looking. My friend who skied there yesterday said he averaged about a run an hour. Biggest line today I’ve ever seen at wildcat. Maybe open tomcat when it’s like that. Ghost town after noon.


Maybe Vail has finally thrown in the towel on keeping Attitash and Wildcat Employees separate due to low staffing.  Maybe they just pulled all the Wildcat Snowmakers over to Attitash this week so that they can have one full snowmaking team operate between the two mountains instead two understaffed teams that were doing nothing.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2021)

A picture, that I didn't take, of the slide of the headwall on Ripcord at Mount Snow that happened this morning while the trail was closed and at the time the guns were running in the effort to get it open for the season.

The freezing rain from last weekend didn't make trying to bond some base layer snow to the headwall easy this year!

2nd slide of the season at Mount Snow after the Christmas Day monsoon induced wet slide on Lodge a few weeks ago!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

Vail's never sold a property, right?

If we see them sell a resort (probably calling it a "non-core assett), that might be a tell.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 10, 2021)

Attitash really stepped up their game this weekend. They FINALLY opened the flying Yankee and Cathedrail trail. They are blowing snow everywhere.  Today they opened Cubs Cut, upper Kachina and one of the trails to the seven figure homes.   

Saturday was busy due to Wildcat being closed due to a power outage.
Today I was able to run laps of Cathedrail until noon. 

Did anyone else notice folks working at Attitash with Stowe jackets on?


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jan 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Vail's never sold a property, right?


Only when forced to divest for antitrust reasons.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 10, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash really stepped up their game this weekend. They FINALLY opened the flying Yankee and Cathedrail trail. They are blowing snow everywhere.  Today they opened Cubs Cut, upper Kachina and one of the trails to the seven figure homes.
> 
> Saturday was busy due to Wildcat being closed due to a power outage.
> Today I was able to run laps of Cathedrail until noon.
> ...


The dude with the stowe coat is the boss for all the eastern gms. Not sure his exact title. 

I was there and noticed the crowd surge after the outage at wildcat. Also overheard people talking about leaving wildcat for attitash. Thought the reservation system would have prevented people from skiing both same day.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not so sure I agree on the Alterra being setup for a public stock offering. From the way I've heard Rusty talk, I get the impression they like the flexibility they have with being private (of course I could be completely wrong). I also don't necessarily agree that they're in the weakest as we have absolutely no insight into their financial situation since they're privately held. I think in a year like this, being private can actually be an asset (depending on who your owners/investors are). If they're people that have deep pockets and care about skiing itself, they very well could be more willing to not worry so much about losing money this year. Whereas a public company like Vail has to try to keep stockholders happy no matter what. The stockholders don't care that there are restrictions on skiing due to COVID.


they my be private, but they still have to answer to their lenders, they paid top dollar for most of their resorts, while most sale prices weren’t announced, they still have have way more debt that vail, in my opinion, what did they pay for mammoth Mt? Deer valley? Crystal? What did they buy intrawest for 1.5 billion?  What did they buy sugarbush for?  Vail passed on intrawest and bought Stowe,okemo, Mt snow instead ( peak resort)


----------



## machski (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Guess I was wrong about that one. There is absolutely no excuse for wildcat to not be blowing today. If there was a mechanical issue, they should post it on their website.
> 
> Attitash was blowing today in very marginal temperatures, think my car said 36f. They got the cubs cut route open. The trail from the top of the abenaki was groomed with no way to ski it. Tripod guns going on upper Kachina and falls, tower guns on lower Kachina, fan guns on thads. I was at bear all day but also heard they were pushing out lower saco to tie that side in.
> 
> Doesnt make sense that attitash is putting in the effort with nothing at wildcat. Hey vail, how about some communication?View attachment 50003


Wow, didn't realize Attitash was still using SR7 guns from the LBO era.


----------



## abc (Jan 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Hey vail, how about some communication?


Don't just ask here! Ask directly to Vail!!!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> they my be private, but they still have to answer to their lenders, they paid top dollar for most of their resorts, while most sale prices weren’t announced, they still have have way more debt that vail, in my opinion, *what did they pay for mammoth Mt? Deer valley? Crystal? What did they buy intrawest for 1.5 billion?  What did they buy sugarbush for?  Vail passed on intrawest and bought Stowe,okemo, Mt snow instead ( peak resort)*



This is one of the problems with all of these bolt-on acquisition companies, regardless of the industry.  Once the low-hanging fruit gets plucked you start paying more for poorer targets.  It's gets worse when copy-cats enter the picture (Alterra, of course, in this instance is the copy-cat).


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2021)

machski said:


> Wow, didn't realize Attitash was still using SR7 guns from the LBO era.


Most every ski area, even if has made the switch to low e guns, still keeps some old air hogs in their bone yard for "special" occasions.

Granted places that have switched over to low e, likely don't still have the air capacity they used to, so they probably can't run nearly as many air hogs as they used to....


----------



## Mainer (Jan 11, 2021)

Listening to the snow report on the local radio station. They mention every resort in the valley, but not attitash or wildcat. Is vail to cheap to contribute? One of my friends has been looking at houses to buy in the valley. He is starting to look at other areas because of how bad attitash/wildcat has been.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 11, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Listening to the snow report on the local radio station. They mention every resort in the valley, but not attitash or wildcat. Is vail to cheap to contribute? One of my friends has been looking at houses to buy in the valley. He is starting to look at other areas because of how bad attitash/wildcat has been



Believe those updates are put together by SKI NH. Peaks pulled out of SKI NH several years ago, website shows sunapee but not the other three.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 11, 2021)

Has anyone been able to load money on their kid's pass? I left my kid with $10 yesterday to buy snacks but forgot they are not taking cash this year. Seem to remember being able to load money on the Peak pass but cannot find anything on the epic website.


----------



## McFatt (Jan 11, 2021)

thebigo said:


> View attachment 49993


I see me! After waiting 35minutes to load the chair, I took an hour and half long break at my truck and waited out the line. Talked to some folks in the parking lot who had just arrived from Wildcat and were able to get day passes for Attitash because the kitty was closed. Within an hour, some dude said he got a text from the bar tender at the kitty and they got power back, so he bounced from and headed back up to the cat. Probably had the place to himself.
By 1:30, the lines were somewhat better because a lot of folks were done. Sunday was night and day and I didn't wait more than 5 minutes at either lift...
This coming MLK weekend might be an absolute sh*tshow, especially if they don't open the Abenaki lift. oy vey


----------



## McFatt (Jan 11, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Maybe Vail has finally thrown in the towel on keeping Attitash and Wildcat Employees separate due to low staffing.  Maybe they just pulled all the Wildcat Snowmakers over to Attitash this week so that they can have one full snowmaking team operate between the two mountains instead two understaffed teams that were doing nothing.


Pretty sure that's exactly what's going on.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2021)

McFatt said:


> Pretty sure that's exactly what's going on.





xlr8r said:


> Maybe Vail has finally thrown in the towel on keeping Attitash and Wildcat Employees separate due to low staffing.  Maybe they just pulled all the Wildcat Snowmakers over to Attitash this week so that they can have one full snowmaking team operate between the two mountains instead two understaffed teams that were doing nothing.


If that is true then wow, just wow.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2021)

In addition to the Abenaki, they very much need more terrain open off the Yankee.  Spillway and Most to lower Grand Stand should be major priorities.

Speaking of the Yankee, it's not spinning today.  More cost cutting by Vail I guess.  Does this new GM not realize that the triple is one of the most hated lifts in New England?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> If that is true then wow, just wow.


This was not uncommon under Peak.  It was very obvious they shared snowmaking personnel.  Plenty of days over the past several years they were making snow at Attitash, but not at Cat and vice versa.  It's why both areas have always been a bit slow to expand terrain December into January.  But, it's never been this slow. Not even close


----------



## 1dog (Jan 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> This was not uncommon under Peak.  It was very obvious they shared snowmaking personnel.  Plenty of days over the past several years they were making snow at Attitash, but not at Cat and vice versa.  It's why both areas have always been a bit slow to expand terrain December into January.  But, it's never been this slow. Not even close


Whats the unemployment rate in Carroll County?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2021)

1dog said:


> Whats the unemployment rate in Carroll County?


I don't know, but I don't believe that's the primary factor.  I think they just see two mountains twenty minutes apart, so might as well move people back and forth.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 11, 2021)

1dog said:


> Whats the unemployment rate in Carroll County?


I am not in the business of defending vail but the overall unemployment rate is not a factor. I would guess most of the unemployed in the area either worked in hospitality or the restaurant industry. A 60 year old female housekeeper or waitress is not going to be hauling guns across cat track in the middle of the night.


----------



## McFatt (Jan 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> In addition to the Abenaki, they very much need more terrain open off the Yankee.  Spillway and Most to lower Grand Stand should be major priorities.
> 
> Speaking of the Yankee, it's not spinning today.  More cost cutting by Vail I guess.  Does this new GM not realize that the triple is one of the most hated lifts in New England?


I'm gonna get one of those triple chairs for my backyard someday. It's a life goal. I've spend a lot of time on that lift!


----------



## 1dog (Jan 11, 2021)

I don't know how many who are out of work but not 'in system'. Extremely low based on NH employment website:

New Hampshire’s preliminary seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for November 2020 was 3.8percent, reflecting the impact on unemployment due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic and efforts to contain it. This was a decrease of 0.4 percentage points from the October rate, which remained at 4.2 percent after revision. The November 2019 seasonally adjusted rate was 2.6 percent.
Seasonally adjusted estimates for November 2020 placed the number of employed residents at 722,310, an increase of 24,310 from the previous month and a decrease of 34,480 from November 2019. The number of unemployed residents decreased by 2,250 over-the-month to 28,150. This was 8,230 more unemployed than in November 2019. From October to November 2020, the total labor force increased by 22,060 to 750,460. This was a decrease of 26,250 from November 2019.
The unadjusted November 2020 unemployment rate for New Hampshire was 3.5 percent, a decrease of 0.3 percentage points from the October rate, which remained at 3.8 percent after revision. The November 2019 unadjusted rate was 2.3 percent.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> A picture, that I didn't take, of the slide of the headwall on Ripcord at Mount Snow that happened this morning while the trail was closed and at the time the guns were running in the effort to get it open for the season.
> 
> The freezing rain from last weekend didn't make trying to bond some base layer snow to the headwall easy this year!
> 
> ...


This is why you track pack before making snow on steeper stuff with crap base in place.


----------



## RichT (Jan 11, 2021)

McFatt said:


> I see me! After waiting 35minutes to load the chair, I took an hour and half long break at my truck and waited out the line. Talked to some folks in the parking lot who had just arrived from Wildcat and were able to get day passes for Attitash because the kitty was closed. Within an hour, some dude said he got a text from the bar tender at the kitty and they got power back, so he bounced from and headed back up to the cat. Probably had the place to himself.
> By 1:30, the lines were somewhat better because a lot of folks were done. Sunday was night and day and I didn't wait more than 5 minutes at either lift...
> This coming MLK weekend might be an absolute sh*tshow, especially if they don't open the Abenaki lift. oy vey


" he got a text from the bar tender at the kitty"
Wait what? The bar's open???? Shit I 'd go there just for that!!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 11, 2021)

RichT said:


> " he got a text from the bar tender at the kitty"
> Wait what? The bar's open???? Shit I 'd go there just for that!!


Quite a few ski areas in NH have bars open. Well can’t sit at the bar but tables are available


----------



## drjeff (Jan 11, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Has anyone been able to load money on their kid's pass? I left my kid with $10 yesterday to buy snacks but forgot they are not taking cash this year. Seem to remember being able to load money on the Peak pass but cannot find anything on the epic website.


Can't load money on it, but can link it to your credit card, which your kids can then use at designated food and beverage outlets at the various Epic resorts


----------



## thebigo (Jan 11, 2021)

RichT said:


> " he got a text from the bar tender at the kitty"
> Wait what? The bar's open???? Shit I 'd go there just for that!!


I haven't left NH since driving home from Killington on march 14, I don't know what is going everywhere else but our restaurants and bars have been open since memorial day. Some bars put up plexiglass, others just got rid of half the bar stools.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 12, 2021)

I called attitash yesterday. Lady that answered said the reason yankee is not running is lack of staff. She says they have just half the staff of last year without the j1s. They knew about lack of j1s all summer but hired later and pay less than competition. Reading the Conway daily sun Today there is no ad from vail in there. Not sure if yankee is going to run midweek this year, same with Abenaki. Also snowmaking is either attitash or wildcat, not both at same time. And wildcat can’t groom it’s two trails every night. So frustrating


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 12, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I called attitash yesterday. Lady that answered said the reason yankee is not running is lack of staff. She says they have just half the staff of last year without the j1s. They knew about lack of j1s all summer but hired later and pay less than competition. Reading the Conway daily sun Today there is no ad from vail in there. Not sure if yankee is going to run midweek this year, same with Abenaki. Also snowmaking is either attitash or wildcat, not both at same time. And wildcat can’t groom it’s two trails every night. So frustrating


Maybe they will pay their employees next year. Maybe not


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 12, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe they will pay their employees next year. Maybe not


Doubtful, they will be able to flood the mountains with j1s again


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 12, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Doubtful, they will be able to flood the mountains with j1s again


Do j1’s make and groom snow? They do bump chairs though


----------



## thebigo (Jan 12, 2021)

> *Tuesday Jan. 12, 2021 We are rolling into Tuesday with great views, great skiing and riding and more snowmaking. From our 4062 foot summit you'll get over 2,100 vertical feet of skiing and riding. Today you will have 2 lifts and our snowbelt turning to access terrain for all abilities. Wildcat's grooming team worked their magic on most of our open terrain, however Middle and Lower Polecat were not re-groomed last night. Snowmaking should resume there today.*


Did not see that coming, they are moving back to polecat. Unless you want to ski a green under the guns, they are back to just the lynx. Unbelievable.

Guess I am switching our res to attitash, hopefully they do not close illusion again this afternoon. I understand the race teams need to practice but tough to loose the single decent trail in middle january.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 12, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I called attitash yesterday. Lady that answered said the reason yankee is not running is lack of staff. She says they have just half the staff of last year without the j1s. They knew about lack of j1s all summer but hired later and pay less than competition. Reading the Conway daily sun Today there is no ad from vail in there. Not sure if yankee is going to run midweek this year, same with Abenaki. Also snowmaking is either attitash or wildcat, not both at same time. And wildcat can’t groom it’s two trails every night. So frustrating


She told you over the phone it was lack of staff? I am getting the impression from in person interactions that the few remaining staff are near their breaking point.

As much as it sucks, and I never thought I would say this, at this point it makes sense to make wildcat weekends/holidays/storm days only. A scraped off lynx for the 26 passholders that actually show up today is helping nobody. I dont remember whether that would trigger refunds.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 12, 2021)

That what she said. I felt bad for her, she sounded extremely frustrated. the little staff they have is definitely working too much. When the triple breaks this weekend, hell is going to break loose.She encouraged me to email the gm. This upcoming holiday weekend is probably going to trigger employees quitting. Going to be easily hour + lines.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 12, 2021)

You, I and everybody reading this understand that none of this is the local employees fault. They deserve every customer's gratitude, not bullshit. Not so sure about the family heading up for their one big dollar vacation of the winter. 

They have been incredibly lucky with the triple, history tells us it is due to shit the bed any day now.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2021)

Utterly amazing and sad that on January 12th Wildcat is still only offering two top to bottom trails and Attitash can only find the staff or budget to run the carpet (I think) and three chairlifts; one of which being one of the most hated chairs in New England.  

This is easily the worst performance at any major ski area that I can recall in my 37 years of skiing. 

Why is it that Cannon, Bretton Woods, Cranmore, Loon, Ragged, Waterville (virtually all of their nearest competitors) are not having such issues?  

Because Vail sucks.

Need to change their slogan to Worst Experience of a Lifetime.  That's literally what it is right now for MWV skiers


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2021)

Mainer said:


> . Reading the Conway daily sun Today there is no ad from vail in there.



There should be a pop up add on both Cat and Tash websites stating now hiring linking to an available employment page.  And at this point in the game I'd be advertising a generous sign on bonus.  Offer $500 or so payable 4/1 for any new employees that stay on through 3/15.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm willing to bet they just shut one of them after Prez weekend


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I called attitash yesterday. Lady that answered said the reason yankee is not running is lack of staff. She says they have just half the staff of last year without the j1s. They knew about lack of j1s all summer but hired later and pay less than competition. Reading the Conway daily sun Today there is no ad from vail in there. Not sure if yankee is going to run midweek this year, same with Abenaki. Also snowmaking is either attitash or wildcat, not both at same time. And wildcat can’t groom it’s two trails every night. So frustrating


Wow on multiple levels.  First level--someone answered the phone who was local.  Second level--she was honest about the situation.


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 12, 2021)

Has anyone been able to figure out where we can make sure "auto-renew" on epic passes is not enabled? I can't find it anywhere in my account.
I sent an email to Vail to make sure its turned off but I would not put it past them to just delete the email and hit my credit card for next season the 1st chance they get.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2021)

xwhaler said:


> Has anyone been able to figure out where we can make sure "auto-renew" on epic passes is not enabled? I can't find it anywhere in my account.
> I sent an email to Vail to make sure its turned off but I would not put it past them to just delete the email and hit my credit card for next season the 1st chance they get.


Good point.  Charging your card is probably the one thing that Vail can do right!


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 12, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You, I and everybody reading this understand that none of this is the local employees fault. They deserve every customer's gratitude, not bullshit. Not so sure about the family heading up for their one big dollar vacation of the winter.
> 
> They have been incredibly lucky with the triple, history tells us it is due to shit the bed any day now.


Ummmm yeah.  The triple was "down" 12/21 and 12/22 already this year.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 12, 2021)

xwhaler said:


> Has anyone been able to figure out where we can make sure "auto-renew" on epic passes is not enabled? I can't find it anywhere in my account.
> I sent an email to Vail to make sure its turned off but I would not put it past them to just delete the email and hit my credit card for next season the 1st chance they get.


I just logged in and also couldn't find it.  so I initiated a chat.  You setup auto-renew when you purchase if you look under your order history tab you can tell if you are enrolled or not.  If you are enrolled and you want to cancel or change your card, you have to contact them.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 12, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I just logged in and also couldn't find it.  so I initiated a chat.  You setup auto-renew when you purchase if you look under your order history tab you can tell if you are enrolled or not.  If you are enrolled and you want to cancel or change your card, you have to contact them.


Don't you love when places make it easy to signup/enroll in something but make it much more difficult to cancel?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Don't you love when places make it easy to signup/enroll in something but make it much more difficult to cancel?


The automatic renewal practice some businesses employ seems bad enough for something small but I'd be pretty mad if somebody automatically charged my credit card for $1000 without me telling them to


Do you actually tell them to automatically renew your pass or are they just doing it on your behalf without you ever saying anything?


----------



## abc (Jan 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Don't you love when places make it easy to signup/enroll in something but make it much more difficult to cancel?


That's been the norm rather than the exception in all kinds of businesses


----------



## mbedle (Jan 12, 2021)

You agree or not to the auto-renew when you first purchase the pass. As far as them billing your credit card without you knowing, they send out multiple emails in the spring indicating that they are going to first charge the $49 downpayment and multiple emails in the summer when they plan to charge the remaining balance.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 12, 2021)

mbedle said:


> You agree or not to the auto-renew when you first purchase the pass. As far as them billing your credit card without you knowing, they send out multiple emails in the spring indicating that they are going to first charge the $49 downpayment and multiple emails in the summer when they plan to charge the remaining balance.




As much as Vail certainly has some short comings on many fronts, when it comes to the auto renew option and one's Epic passes, unless one is completely ignorant of their e-mail in-box, it is really tough NOT to be aware of when they're going to charge you (if you choose to re-up again) and how much, or opt out if you choose not to renew.

Between my Epic Pass, my wife's EPIC pass, and our 2 kids Epic passes, probably got close to 20 reminders between the 4 of us as we neared the deadline when they were going to commence the billing for this season's Epic's


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 45 / 127  stowe
> 99 TRAILS OPEN of 111  SB
> says a lot....


Meanwhile 2 runs at wildcat (10 trails)


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Afraid of this happening...there are solutions though..


Break up Vail. Short the stock $MTN. Get places like Wildcat back to local ownership.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 12, 2021)

For a handful of years now I’ve been saying that maybe the mega passes will eventually lead to boosting business at the independent and mom and pop type of ski areas. I don’t know but I hope I’m right. I’m not a fan of the McSki experience. Are any of you there yet? I know I am.


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Jan 12, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Break up Vail. Short the stock $MTN. Get places like Wildcat back to local ownership.





raisingarizona said:


> For a handful of years now I’ve been saying that maybe the mega passes will eventually lead to boosting business at the independent and mom and pop type of ski areas. I don’t know but I hope I’m right. I’m not a fan of the McSki experience. Are any of you there yet? I know I am.



I would love nothing more than to se MTN broken up or at least required to sell off a chunk of their resorts nationwide. Doubt it will happen though.  Government doesn't seem to fea/fight consolidation like it used to.  

 I too hope that the mega passes lead to a resurgence of the local places (full disclosure, I do have an Ikon pass in addition to my NH college pass), but I keep seeing more and more folks who won't ski anywhere except their epic/ikon destinations.  Hopefully, we are right and we can keep the local places viable long enough to be proven so.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 12, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> I too hope that the mega passes lead to a resurgence of the local places (full disclosure, I do have an Ikon pass in addition to my NH college pass), but I keep seeing more and more folks who won't ski anywhere except their epic/ikon destinations.  Hopefully, we are right and we can keep the local places viable long enough to be proven so.


I already have shifted toward the Indy Pass which I only purchased on December 31st, after seeing how things were going with the Vail resorts this year.  I will still probably get a Weekend at Attitash and Wildcat, and will continue to do day trips to Sunapee, and less so Crotched.  But already I have had a great day at Pats Peak, and plan on going also to Berkshire East and Cannon on the Indy Pass.  And maybe if it actually snows a lot maybe go to Black when I am up in the MWV instead of Wildcat.  The Indy Pass already is salvaging my season, and I fully intend to buy it again next year when hopefully there will not be VT travel restrictions.  Epic next year I am doubtful I will get, maybe Ikon Base.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 12, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Meanwhile 2 runs at wildcat (10 trails)


Now; here's a real kicker. Wachusett has 15 trails now in MA; even they have more terrain! Granted the lift lines are consistently 10-15 minute wait at polar & minuteman due to high demand this year


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Jan 12, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I already have shifted toward the Indy Pass which I only purchased on December 31st, after seeing how things were going with the Vail resorts this year.  I will still probably get a Weekend at Attitash and Wildcat, and will continue to do day trips to Sunapee, and less so Crotched.  But already I have had a great day at Pats Peak, and plan on going also to Berkshire East and Cannon on the Indy Pass.  And maybe if it actually snows a lot maybe go to Black when I am up in the MWV instead of Wildcat.  The Indy Pass already is salvaging my season, and I fully intend to buy it again next year when hopefully there will not be VT travel restrictions.  Epic next year I am doubtful I will get, maybe Ikon Base.



After years of railing against the megapasses, in particular Vail, for destroying the sport, I gave in and bought an Ikon base this year because of the nurse discount. That was before I knew I would be in NH this winter. Since it turns out one of the perks of finishing a Masters in your 40's is NH college pass eligibility, I haven't used the Ikon yet.  Probably will, Loon is 20 minutes away, maybe SR too, or Sugarbush if I can make VT work, but it's pretty unlikely I get it again.  If still here next season will likely get a midweek pass for Cannon and either a Ski Cooper pass or an Indy.  Never Epic!


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 13, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I already have shifted toward the Indy Pass which I only purchased on December 31st, after seeing how things were going with the Vail resorts this year.  I will still probably get a Weekend at Attitash and Wildcat, and will continue to do day trips to Sunapee, and less so Crotched.  But already I have had a great day at Pats Peak, and plan on going also to Berkshire East and Cannon on the Indy Pass.  And maybe if it actually snows a lot maybe go to Black when I am up in the MWV instead of Wildcat.  The Indy Pass already is salvaging my season, and I fully intend to buy it again next year when hopefully there will not be VT travel restrictions.  Epic next year I am doubtful I will get, maybe Ikon Base.


Same. I have a few days at Crotched, none further north as not worth the drive. I purchased Indy as a backup, and now it's number one. Berkshire East  this past Sunday  was by far my best non powder day this season by far. Looking forward to many more Indy days.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> After years of railing against the megapasses, in particular Vail, for destroying the sport, I gave in and bought an Ikon base this year because of the nurse discount. That was before I knew I would be in NH this winter. Since it turns out one of the perks of finishing a Masters in your 40's is NH college pass eligibility, I haven't used the Ikon yet.  Probably will, Loon is 20 minutes away, maybe SR too, or Sugarbush if I can make VT work, but it's pretty unlikely I get it again.  If still here next season will likely get a midweek pass for Cannon and either a Ski Cooper pass or an Indy.  Never Epic!


The Ski Cooper thing interests me. My son will be in college next year in Leadville so it could work out well for me. He also gets a free Copper pass and my other son goes to college in VT and gets a sugarbush pass (not this year as covid is screwing it up) so an Ikon may work as well...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 13, 2021)

There is a college in Leadville?

that'd be an incredibly awesome and distracting place to go to college!  so much awesome outdoor stuff to do with that as a home base.


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Jan 13, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The Ski Cooper thing interests me. My son will be in college next year in Leadville so it could work out well for me. He also gets a free Copper pass and my other son goes to college in VT and gets a sugarbush pass (not this year as covid is screwing it up) so an Ikon may work as well...


Nice!  Are they getting the passes for racing or just for being a student there?

Before I found out I could score the NH College Pass, I was weighing either cooper or Indy for my second pass.   I had Indy last year and LOVE it.  Love the pricing, love the ethos, love the slightly ad-hoc nature of it.  I consider myself an IndyPass evangelist.   Cooper offered a pretty compelling alternative though. Starting of course with unlimited days at their fun little mountain.  Similar pricing ($249 through the summer), but with 3 and sometimes 4 days at their 50 partner mountains vs 2 days for the Indy.   They also have a decent partner presence in places that Indy has so far failed to gain traction, such as Tahoe and Colorado.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> Nice!  Are they getting the passes for racing or just for being a student there?
> 
> Before I found out I could score the NH College Pass, I was weighing either cooper or Indy for my second pass.   I had Indy last year and LOVE it.  Love the pricing, love the ethos, love the slightly ad-hoc nature of it.  I consider myself an IndyPass evangelist.   Cooper offered a pretty compelling alternative though. Starting of course with unlimited days at their fun little mountain.  Similar pricing ($249 through the summer), but with 3 and sometimes 4 days at their 50 partner mountains vs 2 days for the Indy.   They also have a decent partner presence in places that Indy has so far failed to gain traction, such as Tahoe and Colorado.


FWIW Bushmogulmaster and his Dad ran Cooper (or used to).


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There is a college in Leadville?
> 
> that'd be an incredibly awesome and distracting place to go to college!  so much awesome outdoor stuff to do with that as a home base.


CMC - Colorado Mountain College. He is going for fire fighting. Wants to fight forest fires out west. Crazy!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> Nice!  Are they getting the passes for racing or just for being a student there?
> 
> Before I found out I could score the NH College Pass, I was weighing either cooper or Indy for my second pass.   I had Indy last year and LOVE it.  Love the pricing, love the ethos, love the slightly ad-hoc nature of it.  I consider myself an IndyPass evangelist.   Cooper offered a pretty compelling alternative though. Starting of course with unlimited days at their fun little mountain.  Similar pricing ($249 through the summer), but with 3 and sometimes 4 days at their 50 partner mountains vs 2 days for the Indy.   They also have a decent partner presence in places that Indy has so far failed to gain traction, such as Tahoe and Colorado.


Just for going in Colorado - CMC.
Sugarbush we have to buy the college pass. If it is still available next year.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 13, 2021)

Skied crotched this afternoon after splitting time between attitash and wildcat everyday since Christmas. While there certainly is thin cover in a few spots, crotched is offering a product on par with their historic norm for mlk weekend. I would guess crotched is offering more acres than wildcat, the contrast between the two is stark. All four nh properties face the same challenges this year but somehow the most southern and low elevation of the four has been able to maintain typical operations. Vail needs to figure out a way for the crotch gm to mentor the rookies, that is if they even realize the problem.


----------



## McFatt (Jan 13, 2021)

I agree. Skied Crotched last night (Tuesday) and was impressed by the conditions and number of different trails I hit with my kids for 2.5 hours. We had a blast!
If Attitash wants to salvage the season, they have to run the Abenaki lift so the crowd can spread out this weekend. And hopefully the Yankee is back on. I have stayed away from Wildcat since opening weekend because that place is hurtin’ 
Hopefully the rain doesn’t eat up too much of the base. What’s ya’lls thoughts on the conditions this weekend?


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 13, 2021)

3"-4" for the MWV,  before it turns to rain.
Sat. might be a day trip to BW, Powder dependent...

Oh yeah, I forgot. Day trips are out his year.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> 3"-4" for the MWV,  before it turns to rain.
> Sat. might be a day trip to BW, Powder dependent...
> 
> Oh yeah, I forgot. Day trips are out his year.



Things are looking up:


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2021)

Hopefully the storm delivers.  Seems Vail is pretty much relying on Mother nature to right things in the MWV.  Still only two ttb runs at Cat on 1/14.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 14, 2021)

NECN just said 10"-15" for The Cat


----------



## McFatt (Jan 14, 2021)

Chooo Chooooooooo! Hop on board the hype train!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 14, 2021)

Of course I have to go to VT and it is showing almost all r@!n there during the day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> NECN just said 10"-15" for The Cat


Was their source Vail Marketing?


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2021)

What's NECN?


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 14, 2021)

I'm here either way.
Only question is BW vs the Cat. Need to "procure" a Day Tic

Have Comps for SR, but will prob hang on to those for later


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 14, 2021)

abc said:


> What's NECN?


New England Cable News


----------



## snoseek (Jan 14, 2021)

Doubt wildcat will get enough to really open anything else although any snow will help them. 2 runs will ski off quick. I'm sitting this weekend out I have to work most of it


----------



## thebigo (Jan 14, 2021)

Always found necn to be one of the best. Tim Kelly and Matt noyes are both skiers and tend to mention jay/cat/loaf etc during rain/snow events. 

This storm feels like one that pastes the cat and loaf.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 14, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Always found necn to be one of the best. Tim Kelly and Matt noyes are both skiers and tend to mention jay/cat/loaf etc during rain/snow events.
> 
> This storm feels like one that pastes the cat and loaf.


Tim Kelly has a house near Jay. He used to do webcasts from Jay. He always talks about surfing as well.


----------



## Edd (Jan 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I'm here either way.
> Only question is BW vs the Cat. Need to "procure" a Day Tic
> 
> Have Comps for SR, but will prob hang on to those for later


BW has natural open now, with plenty of groomers additionally. It‘s not even a contest between the two of them currently.


----------



## Teleskier (Jan 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Of course I have to go to VT and it is showing almost all r@!n there during the day.


Sure, of course it is - why not, let's add one more thing to all the stress of skiing this weekend besides the expected (by me) horrendous crowds.

How do you ski in the rain in a paper (or medical or KN95 or vacuum filter or etc) mask??

A cloth gaiter is fine for the rain, but not protection against the maskless or noses-out people in the lift lines (as I experienced on my one and only so far Epic resort experience this year in December).

Maybe the risk equation balances out to the same:

It's raining and destroyed my mask but less people are in lift lines
It's not raining and my mask works but there are so many expelling/talking people around me in the lift line.
Skiing is my go to activity to relieve work/etc stress. Now it's become a source of it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2021)

abc said:


> What's NECN?


New England Cable News.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> Maybe the risk equation balances out to the same:
> 
> It's raining and destroyed my mask but less people are in lift lines
> It's not raining and my mask works but there are so many expelling/talking people around me in the lift line.


1) It's raining so there's less of them pesky virus/droplets floating in the air. They got washed down to the ground. 
2) It's not raining ... and it's super crowded because it's SNOWING! There's nothing worse than a powder day smack in the middle of a major holiday! 

I'm sitting this one out (partly because my pass is blackout but really just I dislike holiday skiing). Hope the snow help build base for later...


----------



## skiur (Jan 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> New England Cable News.


 Which is owned by NBC.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2021)

skiur said:


> Which is owned by NBC.


What bearing does it have on their forecast?


----------



## RichT (Jan 14, 2021)

xwhaler said:


> Has anyone been able to figure out where we can make sure "auto-renew" on epic passes is not enabled? I can't find it anywhere in my account.
> I sent an email to Vail to make sure its turned off but I would not put it past them to just delete the email and hit my credit card for next season the 1st chance they get.


No problem, when the charge hits your CC dispute it to the CC company.


----------



## Teleskier (Jan 14, 2021)

abc said:


> 1) It's raining so there's less of them pesky virus/droplets floating in the air. They got washed down to the ground.
> 2) It's not raining ... and it's super crowded because it's SNOWING! There's nothing worse than a powder day smack in the middle of a major holiday!
> 
> I'm sitting this one out (partly because my pass is blackout but really just I dislike holiday skiing). Hope the snow help build base for later...


Agreed. I feel like I'm sailing (and skiing) into a no-win scenario... Edmund Fitzgerald comes to mind. But 'the reservations are already made'...


----------



## skiur (Jan 14, 2021)

abc said:


> What bearing does it have on their forecast?


Kinda makes it nbc's forecast.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2021)

skiur said:


> Kinda makes it nbc's forecast.


Kind of? Or is? 

Are you saying it's nothing special as it's just NBC forecast?


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 14, 2021)

Very fake news.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Very fake news.


News? What news?


----------



## urungus (Jan 15, 2021)

Skiers express frustrations with resort's refusal to offer pass refunds, credits
					

One of the leading players in the ski industry, with a half dozen resorts across New England, is facing backlash from customers.




					www.wcvb.com


----------



## kingslug (Jan 15, 2021)

Typical corporate response..


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 15, 2021)

While I dont necessarily agree with their response I'm not surprised.  Also I think the language was written the way it was sort of intentionally to give them this out. 

Basically vail is saying screw you.  You can ski if you want to break the rules or eat your money.

Sucks  but also some of these folks should've realized there was no way any travel restrictions were going to be lifted during ski season.

I beleive preseason they could've had an out, right?

I really didn't read it in depth because I knew I'd be able to ski at the Vail property 4 miles from my home and get "value" from the pass


----------



## njdiver85 (Jan 15, 2021)

My guess is that Vail will in the end, give a credit to any unused passes, but use it once, and you are SOL.  So by keeping quiet now, they are encouraging people to use their pass at least once for fear of not getting anything out of the money they sunk.   So that the number of unused passes will be very low, and therefore they don't have to give much money back (in the form of credits).  Of course, piss off the right skier/lawyer, and maybe there is a class-action lawsuit?


----------



## thebigo (Jan 15, 2021)

Appears to be another piece of the puzzle, Wildcat operations manager left in the fall. The more you dig, it appears anyone with experience or in a leadership role at wildcat and Attitash left in the fall. Wonder what vail did to piss them off so much? Their reward is coming in a couple months when any skier who is paying attention follows suit. 









						Sugarbush Resort Welcomes Patrick Konvicka As New VP Of Mountain Operations & Recreational Services
					

Sugarbush Resort Welcomes Patrick Konvicka As New VP Of Mountain Operations & Recreational Services




					www.snowindustrynews.com


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2021)

skiur said:


> Kinda makes it nbc's forecast.


The meteorologists Kelly and Noyes were there before they were NBC and are different than the normal "weather casters". Especially Kelly. He gives first hand ski and surf reports.


----------



## machski (Jan 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Appears to be another piece of the puzzle, Wildcat operations manager left in the fall. The more you dig, it appears anyone with experience or in a leadership role at wildcat and Attitash left in the fall. Wonder what vail did to piss them off so much? Their reward is coming in a couple months when any skier who is paying attention follows suit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't shock me, Brian Heon GM at the Cat left very quickly after Vail came to town.  At the meet and greet fall fest at Sunday River, he told us he loved working for Peaks.  But as soon as the Vail deal went through, he said he immediately decided to look around at what next possibilities.  He said he was thrilled with the SR/Boyne deal when that came around.  Hmmmmm......


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 15, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Of course, piss off the right skier/lawyer, and maybe there is a class-action lawsuit?


They caved last spring when named in a lawsuit and there was far less justification then, i'm sure something similar will play out this spring.   They'll either give the money back voluntarily or be forced to


----------



## skiberg (Jan 15, 2021)

Disgraceful. Never buy Epic again. That’s the only way and make sure they know we are going to tell every skier we know what a scam Epic is.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Appears to be another piece of the puzzle, Wildcat operations manager left in the fall. The more you dig, it appears anyone with experience or in a leadership role at wildcat and Attitash left in the fall. Wonder what vail did to piss them off so much? Their reward is coming in a couple months when any skier who is paying attention follows suit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100% not downplaying the Cat/tash core skiers who have those 2 great mountains as their home base, however I wonder if say most of the folks who bought any EPIC for just those 2 mountains didn't buy an EPIC next season, does 1 think that the bean counters in CO would even notice that blip in pass sales? 

I feel terrible for what it certainly appears is going on for the loyalist of those 2 great ski areas.


----------



## Edd (Jan 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 100% not downplaying the Cat/tash core skiers who have those 2 great mountains as their home base, however I wonder if say most of the folks who bought any EPIC for just those 2 mountains didn't buy an EPIC next season, does 1 think that the bean counters in CO would even notice that blip in pass sales?
> 
> I feel terrible for what it certainly appears is going on for the loyalist of those 2 great ski areas.


No I don’t think Vail is going to care. I’m fortunate to have access to a Veteran Epic pass which is cheap. I want to withhold $ from them next season for what’s happening but I’m thinking Wildcat supporters are a trivial number to them.

Wildcat deserves more respect than this. I’d like Vail to be more open about why more terrain isn’t open. People can accept honest bad news. Right now the vibe they’re putting out is that they don’t know that anything is abnormal like a Jedi mind trick.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

Vail Resorts Reports Certain Ski Season Metrics for the Season-to-Date Period Ended January 3, 2021 | Vail Resorts, Inc.
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



					investors.vailresorts.com
				






> Season-to-date total skier visits were down 16.6% compared to the prior year season-to-date period.
> Season-to-date total lift ticket revenue, including an allocated portion of season pass revenue for each applicable period, was down 20.9% compared to the prior year season-to-date period, as described further below.
> Season-to-date ski school revenue was down 52.6% and dining revenue was down 66.2% compared to the prior year season-to-date period. Retail/rental revenue for North American resort and ski area store locations was down 39.2% compared to the prior year season-to-date period.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 15, 2021)

^About what you would expect.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

But season pass sale was up!

The scare tactic worked.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> No I don’t think Vail is going to care. I’m fortunate to have access to a Veteran Epic pass which is cheap. I want to withhold $ from them next season for what’s happening but I’m thinking Wildcat supporters are a trivial number to them.
> 
> Wildcat deserves more respect than this. I’d like Vail to be more open about why more terrain isn’t open. People can accept honest bad news. Right now the vibe they’re putting out is that they don’t know that anything is abnormal like a Jedi mind trick.



Don't get me wrong, but Vail did not buy Peaks for Wildcat or Attitash.  They bought it for the NY/CT market share, I am sure everyone here knows that.  They want skiers and snowboarders who hold local season passes in the Northeast to travel to their bigger western resorts.  They will focus on Mount Snow and possibly Hunter before Wildcat and Attitash, Kind of sad!

Wildcat skier visits are around 60,000 and Attitash is around 120,000 compare to Mount Snow around 500,000.  And Hunter has to be close if not more than Mount Snow.  Could not find numbers for Hunter.  Wildcat is also the smallest of the four.  

Basically agree - losing wildcat business probably not that significant considering Vails focus below


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Don't get me wrong, but Vail did not buy Peaks for Wildcat or Attitash.  They bought it for the NY/CT market share, I am sure everyone here knows that.  They want skiers and snowboarders who hold local season passes in the Northeast to travel to their bigger western resorts.  They will focus on Mount Snow and possibly Hunter before Wildcat and Attitash, Kind of sad!
> 
> Wildcat skier visits are around 60,000 and Attitash is around 120,000 compare to Mount Snow around 500,000.  And Hunter has to be close if not more than Mount Snow.  Could not find numbers for Hunter.  Wildcat is also the smallest of the four.
> 
> ...


Where did you find that chart?  I'd be curious to see who the #3 "Brand Awareness" resort was.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 15, 2021)

Gotta be Aspen.  Or maybe the Resort formerly known as Squawlpine


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Gotta be Aspen.  Or maybe the Resort formerly known as Squawalpine


I hope not for Vail's sake as they don't own either of those resorts!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Don't get me wrong, but Vail did not buy Peaks for Wildcat or Attitash.  They bought it for the NY/CT market share, I am sure everyone here knows that.  They want skiers and snowboarders who hold local season passes in the Northeast to travel to their bigger western resorts.  They will focus on Mount Snow and possibly Hunter before Wildcat and Attitash, Kind of sad!
> 
> Wildcat skier visits are around 60,000 and Attitash is around 120,000 compare to Mount Snow around 500,000.  And Hunter has to be close if not more than Mount Snow.  Could not find numbers for Hunter.  Wildcat is also the smallest of the four.
> 
> ...


This maybe so, but there was a time not too long ago when Attitash was doing 200k a year and Wildcat 100k a year.  Those aren't insignificant numbers and if managed properly, both could see those numbers if not better than those numbers again.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope not for Vail's sake as they don't own either of those resorts!


Oh I thought that was an industry wide chart not vail specific.  carry on


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Don't get me wrong, but Vail did not buy Peaks for Wildcat or Attitash. They bought it for the NY/CT market share, I am sure everyone here knows that.


Yes, I think everyone knows that. That isn't a problem at all. 

The problem is Vail appears to purposely starving Wildcat and Attitash to run it to the ground, from the perspective of the northern NH skiers. 

I'm pretty sure Vail doesn't care about Wildcat. Not just due to its low skier visits but for the TYPE of skiers the Cat attracts. They're NOT the target audience of Vail. More over, where can they go when they're pissed with Vail? Cannon, yes. It's not quite the same though. 

Attitash is a different matter. They ARE stereotypical Vail audience. But now, by running Attitash to the ground, they're driving them to Bretton Woods, Sunday River or even Cannon. Unlike Cat loyalists, they have a lot more options.

Actually, another big loser maybe North Conway. It's a perfect base for Wildcat and Attitash. But with both of them "barely open", North Conway becomes a ghost town.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, I think everyone knows that. That isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The problem is Vail appears to purposely starving Wildcat and Attitash to run it to the ground, from the perspective of the northern NH skiers.
> 
> ...


I am actually going to North Conway for a week in February and don’t plan on skiing either Wildcat nor Attitash.   Always have skied Wildcat a few times a year.
This year going to ski Black twice, abram and then do a high country day (skin up stickney then ride the t-bar for $31) @ Bretton woods. Also hitting Cannon on the way up and xcountry in Jackson a day or 2.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, I think everyone knows that. That isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The problem is Vail appears to purposely starving Wildcat and Attitash to run it to the ground, from the perspective of the northern NH skiers.
> 
> ...



Why would Wildcat skiers not be the kind of skiers Vail wants?   Lots of families go there many of whom have their kids in seasonal or race programs.  That's big $$$

As an example, next season I'll have both kids in seasonal programs at Cannin at $900 a kid.  I'll be buying one adult season pass at $900 (approximate early bird rate) one kids pass.  Call it $500.  So, that's $3200 spent at Cannon without a single beer or hot cocoa purchase.  I'd rather be spending this money at Wildcat if they managed the place properly.  My kids will be 6 and 3.  Conservatively I'll average $4k a year spending at Cannon for the next fifteen years should we end up staying there.  So, that's $60k in revenue Vail will lose from just one family of 3 moving on.   Nevermind all the additional revenue they will receive from inviting casual skiing friends to join me who need to buy day tickets.  That would be probably another $1k a year going to Cannon vs Vail. Add on I'm sure a western trip every other year or so when my kids are old enough to appreciate it and the overall loss to Vail would be well over $100k from one family.  And if my kids follow in my footsteps as adults and they have their kids skiing elsewhere?  Tack on even more.

IMO, I think I'm the exact type of customer Vail wants


----------



## thebigo (Jan 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually, another big loser maybe North Conway. It's a perfect base for Wildcat and Attitash. But with both of them "barely open", North Conway becomes a ghost town.



When was the last time you were in North Conway? 

It is the opposite of a ghost town, it is slammed. The busiest I can remember in my 40 years and do not try to buy real estate, there is none. Anywhere in town, from the playground to the grocery store, the topic of where you live inevitably comes up and the standard response when I tell them: 'at least you live in NH'. If you plucked someone off a deserted island and dropped them downtown on new years eve, the only comment would have been: 'why is there a piece of cloth over peoples faces'? Big crowd crowd for fireworks, bars, restaurants, etc. We are not talking rusty subarus and pickups, we are talking women in high heels driving jaguar SUVs with over flowing carts at REI. 

The WFH and home school crowd wanted out of the city this winter. North Conway is the one ski town in New England that is busier in the summer than winter; most people that grew up in the northeast visited north conway at some point as a child and many thought a great place to spend the winter. 

Vail flushed a MASSIVE opportunity to hook these people for life down the shitter. The winner is going to be the WMSP mountains, three of which have approved expansions just waiting for funding.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Why would Wildcat skiers not be the kind of skiers Vail wants?   Lots of families go there many of whom have their kids in seasonal or race programs.  That's big $$$
> 
> As an example, next season I'll have both kids in seasonal programs at Cannin at $900 a kid.  I'll be buying one adult season pass at $900 (approximate early bird rate) one kids pass.  Call it $500.  So, that's $3200 spent at Cannon without a single beer or hot cocoa purchase.  I'd rather be spending this money at Wildcat if they managed the place properly.  My kids will be 6 and 3.  Conservatively I'll average $4k a year spending at Cannon for the next fifteen years should we end up staying there.  So, that's $60k in revenue Vail will lose from just one family of 3 moving on.   Nevermind all the additional revenue they will receive from inviting casual skiing friends to join me who need to buy day tickets.  That would be probably another $1k a year going to Cannon vs Vail. Add on I'm sure a western trip every other year or so when my kids are old enough to appreciate it and the overall loss to Vail would be well over $100k from one family.  And if my kids follow in my footsteps as adults and they have their kids skiing elsewhere?  Tack on even more.
> 
> IMO, I think I'm the exact type of customer Vail wants


I agree with you, DHS.  We're talking similar money with Snowbird (in my situation) but they just don't get it I guess.   Similar stupid corporate decisionmaking with POWDR and Vail I guess.  

I think the intent of the original post was that Vail wants "the type" of skier who skis a few days a season locally and then goes out west to Vail's bigger resorts.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> When was the last time you were in North Conway?


Last week.

(same week as I did last year tool)

When were you there that it's "slammed"???


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## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I think the intent of the original post was that Vail wants "the type" of skier who skis a few days a season locally and then goes out west to Vail's bigger resorts.


Thanks for making clear of what I didn't.

Vail would welcome ANY skiers. But it's biggest target are those who do a couple weekend in the east then a big splash of a week in Vail, Breck/Keystone or Park City.


----------



## tnt1234 (Jan 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree with you, DHS.  We're talking similar money with Snowbird (in my situation) but they just don't get it I guess.   Similar stupid corporate decisionmaking with POWDR and Vail I guess.
> 
> I think the intent of the original post was that Vail wants "the type" of skier who skis a few days a season locally and then goes out west to Vail's bigger resorts.


Yeah, I think that is the business model.

But doesn't the same kind of management attract THAT skier as well as DHS and you?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Yeah, I think that is the business model.
> 
> But doesn't the same kind of management attract THAT skier as well as DHS and you?


One would think.  But.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

urungus said:


> Skiers express frustrations with resort's refusal to offer pass refunds, credits
> 
> 
> One of the leading players in the ski industry, with a half dozen resorts across New England, is facing backlash from customers.
> ...


I watched that and all I can say is, "wow."  Not good.  I also love how Vail said that they would "revisit" the issue at the end of the season so as to "retain" their loyal customers.  I think they missed the part about how folks ARE ALREADY pissed.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 15, 2021)

I didn’t realize skier visit numbers were so low at WildCat and Attatish

Those suckers are getting sold. And some others I bet. Vail don’t want or need. I predict June is when they will get sold.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2021)

FBGM said:


> I didn’t realize skier visit numbers were so low at WildCat and Attatish
> 
> Those suckers are getting sold. And some others I bet. Vail don’t want or need. I predict June is when they will get sold.


Well....as a publicly traded company they will do what they can to avoid "downsizing" due to the messaging that says.  

How is their stock doing right now?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2021)

Identifying a buyer during a pandemic when places are hemorrhaging cash could prove challenging unless it's a fire sale.  Things will be looking up by June for sure, but it will be awhile before consumer leisure spending returns to pre-pandemic levels


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

FBGM said:


> I didn’t realize skier visit numbers were so low at WildCat and Attatish Those suckers are getting sold. And some others I bet. Vail don’t want or need. I predict June is when they will get sold.





FBGM said:


> I didn’t realize skier visit numbers were so low at WildCat and Attatish Those suckers are getting sold. And some others I bet. Vail don’t want or need. I predict June is when they will get sold.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

What numbers are you referring too?


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Identifying a buyer during a pandemic when places are hemorrhaging cash could prove challenging unless it's a fire sale.  Things will be looking up by June for sure, but it will be awhile before consumer leisure spending returns to pre-pandemic levels


 vail is not selling wildcat atitash unless they collapse, the new guys collapsed at wildcat atitash, my guess they are moving people their on rotational basis to help out and when the season ends will bring in better gms assuming they survive, based upon the latest press release, vail and every other ski area area in the country is bleeding left and right, will be interesting who makes it.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jan 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What numbers are you referring too?


Skier visits = around 60,000 for Wildcat and 120,000 for Attitash


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## FBGM (Jan 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Well....as a publicly traded company they will do what they can to avoid "downsizing" due to the messaging that says.
> 
> How is their stock doing right now?


It’s no Tesla but it’s been slow and steady in the right direction since we bottomed out there a year back.

Those skier numbers just make it hard to justify spending heavy there. Especially that 60,000 skier visit one (assuming that’s correct data). That’s got to be the lowest in the portfolio maybe. Some those Midwest bumps might pull more then that due to their location. Wildcat is kinda out there. Not east to get to. Vail bought that all with that Peak buyout. Didn’t really have a choice. I just feel like they could trim some fat now after a year or two with them. I’m sure some super bean counter is all over it so who knows.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 15, 2021)

I also kinda see this from a unique perspective. I was in the ski biz for 10+ years in upper management and was involved in one very large buyout. For the past 4 years my current company in construction we grow from acquisitions. So I’ve been involved in a half dozen or so. And we are not afraid to spit stuff up or cut losses and sell a place. So that’s my mindset behind Vail maybe thinking to cut some places or sell some off if they are not money makers or don’t see a long term future growth.

This is all just speculating and fantasy talk but that’s why we all here.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Skier visits = around 60,000 for Wildcat and 120,000 for Attitash


New England ski resort news history  has had atitash getting 200 k skiers in the past and wildcat 150 k skiers in the past, my guess if vail survives this winter and every other ski company survives this year, they   Will Upgrade both places to take share from loon, Breton woods, cannon, etc, they have owned the mtns for 18 months and been dealing with COVID for 9 months now.  My guess atitash gets renovated first then wildcat, but what do I know.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2021)

FBGM said:


> I also kinda see this from a unique perspective. I was in the ski biz for 10+ years in upper management and was involved in one very large buyout. For the past 4 years my current company in construction we grow from acquisitions. So I’ve been involved in a half dozen or so. And we are not afraid to spit stuff up or cut losses and sell a place. So that’s my mindset behind Vail maybe thinking to cut some places or sell some off if they are not money makers or don’t see a long term future growth.
> 
> This is all just speculating and fantasy talk but that’s why we all here.


I am thinking they will wait another year to sell them off.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It’s no Tesla but it’s been slow and steady in the right direction since we bottomed out there a year back.
> 
> Those skier numbers just make it hard to justify spending heavy there. Especially that 60,000 skier visit one (assuming that’s correct data). That’s got to be the lowest in the portfolio maybe. Some those Midwest bumps might pull more then that due to their location. Wildcat is kinda out there. Not east to get to. Vail bought that all with that Peak buyout. Didn’t really have a choice. I just feel like they could trim some fat now after a year or two with them. I’m sure some super bean counter is all over it so who knows.





FBGM said:


> I also kinda see this from a unique perspective. I was in the ski biz for 10+ years in upper management and was involved in one very large buyout. For the past 4 years my current company in construction we grow from acquisitions. So I’ve been involved in a half dozen or so. And we are not afraid to spit stuff up or cut losses and sell a place. So that’s my mindset behind Vail maybe thinking to cut some places or sell some off if they are not money makers or don’t see a long term future growth.
> 
> This is all just speculating and fantasy talk but that’s why we all here.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

They are not making any more ski resort’s especially in the north east, atitash is a diamond in the rough, assuming vail survives this year, building up atitash will be huge for their business, the greater Boston area is a huge skiers town, no way is vail walking away from that, my guess after this year when vail expands again it will be by snagging feeder mtns in ct, Rhode island, north eastern mass,  and eastern New York between nyc and Hunter Mtn.  Time will tell, as bad as vail is doing my guess alterra is in a worst position and who knows how bad boyne and powdr is doing.


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## machski (Jan 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> They are not making any more ski resort’s especially in the north east, atitash is a diamond in the rough, assuming vail survives this year, building up atitash will be huge for their business, the greater Boston area is a huge skiers town, no way is vail walking away from that, my guess after this year when vail expands again it will be by snagging feeder mtns in ct, Rhode island, north eastern mass,  and eastern New York between nyc and Hunter Mtn.  Time will tell, as bad as vail is doing my guess alterra is in a worst position and who knows how bad boyne and powdr is doing.


If Attitash is a Diamond in the Rough, how do you describe Jay Peak which is already on the market?


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## drjeff (Jan 15, 2021)

I think one thing for perspective on numbers, is in the US, only about 3% of the total population are skiers/riders. That's about 10 million people.

That data was directly from the President of the NSAA just a couple of days ago when she was nice enough to answer a couple of ski industry related questions my son needed answered for a paper for his high-school English class he's currently working on.

Vail, with apparently over a million Epic's sold has about 10% of the skiing/riding population in the US on its pass...


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I think one thing for perspective on numbers, is in the US, only about 3% of the total population are skiers/riders. That's about 10 million people.
> 
> That data was directly from the President of the NSAA just a couple of days ago when she was nice enough to answer a couple of ski industry related questions my son needed answered for a paper for his high-school English class he's currently working on.
> 
> Vail, with apparently over a million Epic's sold has about 10% of the skiing/riding population in the US on its pass...


Chris diamond in one of his books mentions a couple of people who think it’s closer to either 15 million or 20 million, so I guess the real numbers are somewhere between ten million and twenty million.  Heard some ski executives including win smith of sugarbush say that new skiers numbers the last couple of years is way up.  Time will tell.


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

machski said:


> If Attitash is a Diamond in the Rough, how do you describe Jay Peak which is already on the market?


For one thing they are asking way to much for jay peak, vail does not over pay for resorts, they paid 50 million for Stowe, can’t remember the asking price of jay but it’s north of 50 million.  I think attitash and wildcat have a lot of potential that needs vail resources to bring out the that potential plus these areas are way closer to Boston than jay, jay for all practical purposes is really a Canadian ski area, Canadians south of Montreal head towards jay, north of Montreal they go to tremblant ( spelling).


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## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Chris diamond in one of his books mentions a couple of people who think it’s closer to either 15 million or 20 million, so I guess the real numbers are somewhere between ten million and twenty million.  Heard some ski executives including win smith of sugarbush say that new skiers numbers the last couple of years is way up.  Time will tell.


There isn't any accurate number, just estimates. How do you distinguish whether the 3 visits I made to 3 separate mountains are not from 3 different skiers? 

It's more an art on how to reduce the "skier visit day" number to come up with an estimate of how many "bodies" really are there. 

Granted, with season passes, that number is well known.


----------



## skiberg (Jan 15, 2021)

i guess this is what happens when you are publicly traded. Must meet revenue and profit projections. Keep stock price stable.

I will never buy epic again.


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## kingslug (Jan 15, 2021)

I doubt vail knows where jay is....


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## skiur (Jan 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> They are not making any more ski resort’s especially in the north east



Les Otten would beg to differ!


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

skiur said:


> Les Otten would beg to differ!


It’s not a new ski area just an old one trying to make a come back, les otten is a one hit wonder, Sunday River, crashed and burned American ski co.   From the sound of things in Chris diamonds book, les otten though he was the smartest guy in the room who already knew everything


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## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I am thinking they will wait another year to sell them off.


I’d love to see them sell Wildcat and Attitash off.


----------



## skiberg (Jan 15, 2021)

Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing


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## Cobbold (Jan 15, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing


Assuming vail and alterra survive this, assuming they do, les otten balsams will be a white elephant, high priced resort far from Boston, who with a ikon or epic pass will travel their, they will get one percenters and no one else


----------



## thebigo (Jan 15, 2021)

All the talk about attitash skier numbers overlooks the summer business. There are significantly more customers midweek non holiday during the summer at attitash than the winter. They don't do much for weddings but there is always a good line at the ticket window and the summer attractions are not cheap.


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## abc (Jan 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> All the talk about attitash skier numbers overlooks the summer business. There are significantly more customers midweek non holiday during the summer at attitash than the winter. They don't do much for weddings but there is always a good line at the ticket window and the summer attractions are not cheap.


Question is does Vail even care?

The impression is Vail wants people to take a trip out to their resorts out west!

Summer business are walk up one time customer. Or skiers who come back in the summer. There may not be the same summer number if the winter traffic dries up due to neglect.

So a portion of the Attitash and Wildcat "regulars" swear they'll never buy another Epic pass again. If they don't buy another Epic pass, they're lose to Vail as potential trip-out-west customers.

Vail has to learn Northeast Ski business in a hurry. Majority of Northeast mountains' GM knows how to handle the random snow fall in December, especially during the holiday period. Vail never had to deal with that kind of stuff. Last year, they weren't really dictating the day-to-day operation. This is their first year. They're doing terribly in comparison with neighboring mountains in NH and NY. Vermont mountains aren't quite so bad. But since most NY/NJ skiers are hesitant to go to VT due to quarantine requirements, their overall impression of Vail owned resorts are hugely negative! Vail's grand plan of wowing the NY/NJ skier will go spectacularly wrong if this continues!

Now, we only need Vail to shut down Wildcat right after Easter! That will complete their mission of pissing off the majority of NY/NJ passholders.


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## ss20 (Jan 15, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing



Sheesh.  Without him there'd be no Sunday River.  Killington and Sugarbush would be VERY different.  Attitash would still just be Attitash-proper, and a very minor player in the East.  Not everywhere can or should be Magic, Castlerock, MRG, Burke, etc.  Oh and in mid-April when all those places are closed you can ride a quad chair directly to the top of White Heat or Outer Limits and ride 1,200 vertical feet of bumps.  

At the moment I'd rather be at Sunday River or Killington over MRG and Magic.  Give me two more feet of natural and that opinion changes.  But there's a time/place/purpose for well-groomed trails and awesome snowmaking power.


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Sheesh.  Without him there'd be no Sunday River.  Killington and Sugarbush would be VERY different.  Attitash would still just be Attitash-proper, and a very minor player in the East.  Not everywhere can or should be Magic, Castlerock, MRG, Burke, etc.


Yea, it is hard to say what those places would be like without Les's influence. Also hard to say I "hate" him when he did push various things forward that are important today. Although it is ironic that you bring up Castlerock considering he wanted to destroy it with snowmaking and a HS lift. Thankfully the local push-back ("More ‘Rock, less Otten") won out on that one.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I am thinking they will wait another year to sell them off.


So, I feel for all of your pain.  I really do.  If it makes any of you feel better, we are having the worst ski season in probably at least 9 years or so.  

That said, I hear the calls for Vail to put Wildcat up for sale but who, I mean who, is going to buy it?  It was on the market for like 10 years before Peaks bought it.  Fairbanks?  Maybe.  Anyone else?  

Oh, wait, I know who.....and he can pair it with his other NNH resort that is STILL coming!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2021)

machski said:


> If Attitash is a Diamond in the Rough, how do you describe Jay Peak which is already on the market?


There you go.  That goes to what I was saying--if one could have Jay or Wildcat, which one would you buy?  Jay is closer to Montreal, has (or had) stable business, and has (or had) a good four-season thing going.


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## skiberg (Jan 16, 2021)

Bear peak at Attitash and Sunday River. Indiscernible. Cookie cutter. Les Otten ripped the soul from NE skiing. Killington, SR, the Bush existed long before him and would continue to exist without him. He sucks. He’s not a skier, never was. He’s a businessman and never understood skiers


----------



## thebigo (Jan 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So, I feel for all of your pain.  I really do.  If it makes any of you feel better, we are having the worst ski season in probably at least 9 years or so.
> 
> That said, I hear the calls for Vail to put Wildcat up for sale but who, I mean who, is going to buy it?  It was on the market for like 10 years before Peaks bought it.  Fairbanks?  Maybe.  Anyone else?
> 
> Oh, wait, I know who.....and he can pair it with his other NNH resort that is STILL coming!


Passed the time during the drive up to north conway tonight thinking about where the three NH properties might end up if they do sell. Best I could come up with is:
Crotched -> Boyne
Wildcat -> Fairbanks
Attitash -> LBO gives up on the balsams, finds some money and gives it a go. He was the only one that ever got anything done there.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 16, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing


Idk I still think Vail is worse.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 16, 2021)

I spent 20+ years pretty close to LBO.  Rode the climb & the fall.
Used to play cards weekly w/ him and spent a fair amount of time together out on Long Lake waterskiing.
 100% Good Guy !  and definitely has the experience & energy to pull off The Balmsams project.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Idk I still think Vail is worse.


I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


----------



## skiberg (Jan 16, 2021)

Like I said I don’t know Les Otten. May b a good guy. Certainly has balls, but all he did was create a bunch of soulless duplicative ski areas. He is not a skier. No skier would ever create that crap. That’s why I despise him.


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## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


Seeing what Vail did in the northeast, if that's the best thing happen to ski industry, I should take up knitting.


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## 2Planker (Jan 16, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Like I said I don’t know Les Otten. May b a good guy. Certainly has balls, but all he did was create a bunch of soulless duplicative ski areas. He is not a skier. No skier would ever create that crap. That’s why I despise him.


You're wrong about that....  For 15-20 years he was skiing 4-5 days every week. He lived 100 yards from his office in South Ridge.
 We had to "chaperone" his son BJ as a Jr Ski Patroller for 2-3 years...


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Like I said I don’t know Les Otten. May b a good guy. Certainly has balls, but all he did was create a bunch of soulless duplicative ski areas. He is not a skier. No skier would ever create that crap. That’s why I despise him.


Just because he wasn't your type of skier doesn't mean he wasn't a skier. There are some skiers that actually like wide straight simple trails (not me, but I do know others that do).


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


I certainly hope what's happened since Vail took over the northeast market isn't the new standard for the best thing to happen to the ski industry.   Some of it can certainly be attributed to the pandemic but stuff like the piss poor communication is totally inexcusable


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


Pass me some of that kool-aid


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 16, 2021)

Overall I would says Les Otten was a mixed bag, with the good slightly outweighing the bad.  No doubt New England skiing would be very different today without his influences.  I would not complain too much about him changing terrain, as the only real terrain expansions that he built in New England are at Sunday River and Attitash, and he tried but was unsuccessful in changing Castlerock.  Sunday River might have influenced other mountains to cut wide trails (cough Double Dipper), but that was done by other ownership, not him.

The Good:
Sunday River, While not perfect, overall he built the place from a local hill into one of the largest and best resorts in New England.  There is something for everyone there, and rarely do I hear people hate on Sunday River.  Again its not a perfect mountain, some trails I wish were cut differently but Sunday River would still be a local hill the likes of Black ME and Abrams if not for him.

Attitash, he similarly turned a small mountain into at one stage the largest by acreage resort in NH.  IMO Bear Peak is the best pod of trails he designed.  Attitash just was never finished before ASC went broke as the final piece was to be the Summit Express lift with additional trails cut from it.  Attitash has since spent 20 years being ignored by its owners.

Sugarbush, Updating Gatehouse, Super Bravo lifts into HSQs and building Slidebrook express.  replacing the poma on North Lynx with a triple

Killington, K1 Express, Needles Eye, Northbrook upgrades.  Killington and Mount Snow got much needed lift upgrades that were lacking under S-K-I Ltd ownership

Mount Snow, Canyon and Nitro HSQs

Cranmore, Skimobile Express

Cheap multi mountain season passes

Introduced shaped skis before anyone else into rentals and ski schools

Built dedication ski school adventure centers at most of the resorts

Mixed
Grand Summit Hotels, these worked at some resorts more than others but ultimately building about 7 of them at the same time across New England and out west caused ASC's financial downfall.

Killington Ramshead Express, created a nice family area with a good fast lift but lost the summit of Ramshead.  Truncating Sunrise, I never got to ski it, but to me it seems building that terrain was a mistake from the start.

Bad
Sugarbush, rearranging lifts at mount Ellen and trying to modernize Castlerock.

Expanding his empire too quick and building too much at once leading ASC into financial ruin.  He never should have bought out S-K-I ltd.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


Are you a Natzi?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me


Why?  Serious question.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Cobbold said:
> 
> 
> > I think vail is the best thing to happen to the ski industry, but that’s just me
> ...


The best thing Vail did is it concentrated the maddening crowd in Vail owned resorts.

That left the rest of us with less crowded mountains.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Just because he wasn't your type of skier doesn't mean he wasn't a skier. There are some skiers that actually like wide straight simple trails (not me, but I do know others that do).



I know a guy who skis Okemo groomers every weekend Thanksgiving-early April.  He does go off trail maybe 5ish days a year.  There's people where this is their cup of tea.


----------



## skiur (Jan 16, 2021)

Majority of skiers never venture off the groomers.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

skiur said:


> Majority of skiers never venture off the groomers.


Majority of the population don't ski. 

But we have ski resorts after all. Because there's enough of a niche market for the "non-majority".

I'm fine with SOME resorts are groomer focused. But I can see why the non-groomer skiers gets upset when their favorite mountain got groomed to death.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I know a guy who skis Okemo groomers every weekend Thanksgiving-early April.  He does go off trail maybe 5ish days a year.  There's people where this is their cup of tea.



Yea...my brother would be perfectly content doing that. And I'm perfectly ok with there being areas that cater to that. A lot of those places get very good crowds and I'm more than happy those people ski there instead of all coming to the resorts I prefer.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yea...my brother would be perfectly content doing that. And I'm perfectly ok with there being areas that cater to that. A lot of those places get very good crowds and *I'm more than happy those people ski there instead of all coming to the resorts I prefer.*


Precisely! That's one of the "best*"* part of Vail.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

Not a fan of groomers but this season..its mostly that..Hunter and Gore had some moguls..ill take what i get this year


----------



## thebigo (Jan 16, 2021)

There are four types of lift served eastern skiing:

Park, woods, bumps, groomers

I am too old for the first, the second is my favorite but requires abundant natural snow. The third is runner up but requires some natural snow or abundant well managed man made snow. The fourth is a good consolation and a damn site better than working out in my basement. 

Today was day #35 of the season. Something approaching 30 have been high speed groomers. Ride a high speed quad to the top and race my daughter to the bottom. Absent the high speed quads that lbo put in, we would not be rushing out for lunch runs. We would much rather be in Thompson but until somebody figures a way to make it snow 1'/week we will gladly race down illusion.


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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Not a fan of groomers but this season..its mostly that..Hunter and Gore had some moguls..ill take what i get this year


It is also only mid-January. There's plenty of time for the bumps, woods, and natural terrain to get up to speed. This weekend looks like a great push towards just that.


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## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Not a fan of groomers but this season *so far*...! its mostly that..Hunter and Gore had some moguls..ill take what i get this year


I hope this changes soon. 

I enjoy groomers once in a while, especially when it's* quiet! *I don't care to do groomers while dodging moving obstacles. 

With the level of crowds this season, I'll pass.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

Yup
On so many sites people are complaining it sux out there??
Its a lot better than i thought it would be..


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

Hunter all sold out for next weekend as well...place is so crowded..no one goes there   LOL
Its going to be ...a Gore winter..


----------



## Dickc (Jan 16, 2021)

I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.  

Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!! 

 I see a lot in here bitching about Vail.  Have not had the ability to try a Vail NE Resort as a result of my VERY uncooperative back, but just two trails at Wildcat would not be a lot different from my 1960's days as ALL of them were only natural snow days.  Give Vail another year as many have surmised WHY Vail is so disappointing at Catitash, so give them a non-pandemic year to see what they can do to fix it.

You ALL are VERY Spoiled brats! Skiing is skiing,  If its not what you want to be doing, go do something else.  If its what you want to be doing, ENJOY it in spite of weather, management and labor limitations, crowds, or COVID.  In much of the world it would be a luxury you would not be able to do.

It's all in ones perspective, and you need to refocus your perspectives.


----------



## machski (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> For one thing they are asking way to much for jay peak, vail does not over pay for resorts, they paid 50 million for Stowe, can’t remember the asking price of jay but it’s north of 50 million.  I think attitash and wildcat have a lot of potential that needs vail resources to bring out the that potential plus these areas are way closer to Boston than jay, jay for all practical purposes is really a Canadian ski area, Canadians south of Montreal head towards jay, north of Montreal they go to tremblant ( spelling).


Ahh, but that is not an apples to apples comparison.  Vail only got Stowe the Ski Area, they did not get the real estate or the Spruce Village complex.  With Jay whoever buys it gets the Ski Area and all the real estate and extras there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 16, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.
> 
> Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!!
> 
> ...



I don't think people are spoiled brats for being pissed that their home mountains of many years are being run like garbage compared to prior ownership and the competition.   Especially when the company in charge is the largest and wealthiest company in the business.  

There is not a Cat or Attitash skier I know who wouldn't take Peak management practices back.  The Sunapee folks feel the same in that the Mueller's ran it much better than Vail. 

I'm hardly a snob and agree with your general premise that any skiing is better than no skiing.  I can have fun spending the afternoon skiing MacIntyre with my son.  But I also have choices of where I choose to spend my money.  It won't be with Vail again unless they greatly improve their efforts in the Mt Washington valley.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 16, 2021)

I ski wherever whenever,rain sleet, slush..whatever. But Vail has changed things. maybe for the better in some ways..worse in others. yes this season is different so I'm just taking it as it comes. 17 days so far and its been pretty good. If Hunter is sold out..I go to Gore, or Bell, or Platt. Conditions have been good.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Seeing what Vail did in the northeast, if that's the best thing happen to ski industry, I should take up knitting.


Vail has brought the price of skiing multiple resorts in one ski season substantially lower. I have never understood all of the hate? The company makes the majority of their revenue at Breckenridge, Vail, Whistler, and Park City. Every small resort on that pass is there to try and get people to make a trip to one of Vail's main resorts where they own most of the lodging and restaurants in the area. 

I understand all of the complaints about Wildcat if I bought a pass to ski there exclusively I'd certainly be disappointed but when the season is bad like this year coupled with Covid you'd have to expect less focus on lower revenue producing resorts which is what is happening. There are still plenty of other places to go on that pass that makes it worthwhile.....in any event hopefully next season gets back to being somewhat normal!


----------



## machski (Jan 16, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Overall I would says Les Otten was a mixed bag, with the good slightly outweighing the bad.  No doubt New England skiing would be very different today without his influences.  I would not complain too much about him changing terrain, as the only real terrain expansions that he built in New England are at Sunday River and Attitash, and he tried but was unsuccessful in changing Castlerock.  Sunday River might have influenced other mountains to cut wide trails (cough Double Dipper), but that was done by other ownership, not him.
> 
> The Good:
> Sunday River, While not perfect, overall he built the place from a local hill into one of the largest and best resorts in New England.  There is something for everyone there, and rarely do I hear people hate on Sunday River.  Again its not a perfect mountain, some trails I wish were cut differently but Sunday River would still be a local hill the likes of Black ME and Abrams if not for him.
> ...


Good list.  Sunrise at Killington only made sense when they were going to expand into Parkers Gore.  Once they gave that back to preservation, Sunrise was low elevation and far away from everything else.  They made that swap partially (and Parker's Gore) to get access to the land between Ramshead and Pico for the interconnect.  If that ever happens.  Ramshead being chopped stunk, but the terrain above is considerably steeper and not novice friendly.  Maybe in the future when Ramshead gets upgraded, they can do a mid unload at the current top and extend back to summit.  Of course, any snowmaking lines to the top are long since toast.

Sugarbush lift switches at Mount Ellen.  Never personally was crazy about it, but it was partially to have HSQ access on Ellen right off Slidebrook.  LBO's plan all along was to build a hotel/base village proper at South, so it was logical with that to assume most would access Ellen via Slidebrook as that developed.  He ran into a ton of resistance to his real estate plans and never got much off the ground at South.  So the lift switch made little sense (other than you get the Exterminator pod HS lift served).  Win putting back in a GMX was smart.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

machski said:


> Ahh, but that is not an apples to apples comparison.  Vail only got Stowe the Ski Area, they did not get the real estate or the Spruce Village complex.  With Jay whoever buys it gets the Ski Area and all the real estate and extras there.


If jay was worth the asking price it would of sold by now, it’s over priced no matter how you cut the cards, my guess vail gets a piece of the hotel action since they are using vails reservation system.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.
> 
> Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!!
> 
> ...


Well said sir, well said


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> If jay was worth the asking price it would of sold by now, it’s over priced no matter how you cut the cards, my guess vail gets a piece of the hotel action since they are using vails reservation system.


I believe they originally wanted around 150 million for everything and will probably be lucky to get 50 or 60 mill when all is said and done. The other problem is the town, they are/where collecting real estate taxes based on a 200 mill valuation, a 60 mill re-assessment will lower annual real estate taxes substantially.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.
> 
> Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!!
> 
> ...


Well said sir, well said.


Tonyr said:


> I believe they originally wanted around 150 million for everything and will probably be lucky to get 50 or 60 mill when all is said and done. The other problem is the town, they are/where collecting real estate taxes based on a 200 mill valuation, a 60 mill re-assessment will lower annual real estate taxes substantially.


my guess their is limited amount of buyers for ski areas, the big four are like the Yankees, if they are in the market for free agents prices go way up, not in the market prices come way down.  Big four not interested in jay, price drops because their is no demand for jay.  Trying to sell a ski area in the era of Covid 19 is another unique situation to say the least.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Hunter all sold out for next weekend as well...place is so crowded..no one goes there   LOL
> Its going to be ...a Gore winter..


I was hoping to ski Hunter some. But that's unlikely to happen as it stands.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> There are still plenty of other places to go on that pass that makes it worthwhile.


Like where? Hunter?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Like where? Hunter?


You don’t like Stowe, okemo, Mt snow, Sunapee, crouched?


----------



## skiberg (Jan 16, 2021)

Didn’t les make the canyon lift at big K and open up and cut the superstar trails. canyon is terrible. sr was not a sleepy hill prior to les. They had base condos and were expanding. Sure he made it a major destination, but really every trail feels the same. he ruined the ski experience. I don’t care how many days a year he skied he doesn’t understand skiers. Great groomers but can boring as hell also. When the snow is good the hill can ski very well though. They used to have a bunch of classic New England terrain. Gone. White heat is a travesty. it kills me to think of the terrain he could have created on that hill.


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## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> You don’t like Stowe, okemo, Mt snow, Sunapee, crouched?


In case you forgot, Stowe, okemo, Mt snow are in Vermont! It's inaccessible for anyone but Vermonters. 

It's not for myself. I'm not a 'catitash' loyalist. But I can understand their frustration. Because it's clearly Vail's doing if all the neighboring mountains are over 50% open despite the bad winter, and Wildcat is only 20% open!


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## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you forgot, Stowe, okemo, Mt snow are in Vermont!


I have heard that


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you forgot, Stowe, okemo, Mt snow are in Vermont!





abc said:


> In case you forgot, Stowe, okemo, Mt snow are in Vermont!


Mt crotched damm autocorrect


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

The forum software still have some quirk. 

I struggle sometimes. Post stuff I didn't mean to, half way in composing the message.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> In case you forgot, Stowe, okemo, Mt snow are in Vermont! It's inaccessible for anyone but Vermonters.



Hyperbole much? Not saying everyone can meet the requirements, but there certainly are people that aren't Vermonters that can still legitimately make it to VT resorts this season.


----------



## abc (Jan 16, 2021)

D


cdskier said:


> Hyperbole much? Not saying everyone can meet the requirements, but there certainly are people that aren't Vermonters that can still legitimately make it to VT resorts this season.


Hyperbole? Let's do the math:

Quarantine for 2 weeks, day trip on the weekend. Home for 2 weeks, no going out to satisfy the quarantine rules. How many days have you gotten since the beginning of the season? And how many days will you get?

Sure, there're people who blatantly ignore the rules. Most others bend it a little. 2 weeks at home state going out shopping, meeting extended family members, one restaurant visit per month. Safe enough? It's still only 1 day every 2 weeks!

The only legal way to do Vermont for more than that is to stay up there and not leaving VT. Or just pretend the rule doesn't apply. Take your pick. 

Why do you think Hunter is so busy while Mt Snow is not? Is it because Hunter has better skiing?

Sure, given Vail won't refund people's pass, the most expedient thing to do IS ignore the rules.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2021)

skiberg said:


> Didn’t les make the canyon lift at big K and open up and cut the superstar trails. canyon is terrible. sr was not a sleepy hill prior to les. They had base condos and were expanding. Sure he made it a major destination, but really every trail feels the same. he ruined the ski experience. I don’t care how many days a year he skied he doesn’t understand skiers. Great groomers but can boring as hell also. When the snow is good the hill can ski very well though. They used to have a bunch of classic New England terrain. Gone. White heat is a travesty. it kills me to think of the terrain he could have created on that hill.


Canyon Quad was one of the last things that Pres and SKI did.  Pres also did the Skyeship Replacement and (I think) did Rams Head before they sold to LBO. 

Les and ASC built the hotel, added K-1, boosted the snowmaking (in exchange for giving up Parker's Gore and abandoning part of Sunrise), bought Pico, and started the Killington/Pico Connection. 

True that SKI/Pres Smith DID own Sunday River when they sent Les out there to run it.  True that they had started some work, but one has to give Les pretty much all of the credit. 

I've skied probably 10-15 days total at Sunday River.  I like it *for what it is.*  I went there for the Sunday River experience--beautiful Western Maine skiing on well-groomed trails with good snowmaking.  I don't think of Sunday River for amazing glade skiing or "narrow" trails.  I don't think of Sunday River as a posh resort, but a solid area that consistently delivers.  I remember the first time I skied there in 2001 or so and was completely blown away.  Growing up about 90 minutes west, and with cable that included Maine, NH, and some other New England stations, I did see A LOT of buzz about Sunday River and its marketing. 

You can't dismiss what he did to the industry.  He made Sunday River a middle-class destination with, initially, more affordable accommodations before building up.  He used expansions as a marketing tool.  Like Killington, he understood that snowmaking WAS the product, especially in an area that does not get a ton of snow.  He made ego terrain and just made Sunday River ahead of its time. 

ASC:  one has to keep in perspective the times.  It was the go-go 90's.  Les WAS the big deal.  He was able to get (probably too much) capital.  His first areas--Attitash, Sugarbush, and Cranmore saw well-thought out and much needed improvements that last even today.  I do agree that ending the arms race with SKI and buying them was probably too much.  Remember also that he went public and Wall Street is, um, Wall Street as Vail will tell you. 

When I think skiing in the 1990's, I have to think of Sunday River and then ASC.  It just was the deal.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 16, 2021)

abc said:


> D
> 
> Hyperbole? Let's do the math:
> 
> Quarantine for 2 weeks, day trip on the weekend. Home for 2 weeks, no going out to satisfy the quarantine rules. How many days have you gotten since the beginning of the season? And how many days will you get?


So you're saying it is possible. That's entirely different than "inaccessible". You can also cut that 2 weeks down to 1 week with COVID tests. Or like you said, stay in VT for an extended period of time. For people that can work remotely and don't have kids or have kids doing virtual schooling, this is a very viable option.

There's plenty of people on this forum that don't live in VT, are following the rules, and still are skiing in VT. So yes, saying VT is "inaccessible for anyone but Vermonters" is absolutely hyperbole. (There's also some that aren't following the rules, but that's not the route I'm advocating).


----------



## abc (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> .
> 
> There's *plenty* of people on this forum that don't live in VT, are following the rules, and still are skiing in VT.


now THAT is hyperbole!

next, you’ll be calling 2nd home owners Vermonters too!

Why do you think Hunter is sold out while Mt Snow is not? Is it because Hunter has better skiing?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Tim Kelly has a house near Jay. He used to do webcasts from Jay. He always talks about surfing as well.







__





						Weather by Tim Kelley | Jay Peak Resort
					

It's great to be back!




					jaypeakresort.com


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## ScottySkis (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> now THAT is hyperbole!
> 
> next, you’ll be calling 2nd home owners Vermonters too!
> 
> Why do you think Hunter is sold out while Mt Snow is not? Is it because Hunter has better skiing?


Yes for best ski and snowboard er it does beat Mountain snow


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## Jersey Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

Every person I know who owns a condo in VT bends, ignores or breaks the rules to ski VT this season. I was speaking to a local deli owner about skiing since I had just done my first day at Hunter.  He mentioned how many families stop by every Friday to load up with food for their weekend trip to VT. 

I feel ripped off after buying an Epic pass but only being able to ski Hunter. If I owned a place in VT I'm sure I would break the rules too. That's just too much investment to ignore.


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## Jersey Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Yes for best ski and snowboard er it does beat Mountain snow


West side is still closed this season. Not sure what else would be better at Hunter.


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## FBGM (Jan 17, 2021)

In other Vail hate news, park city ski patrol Union contract ended in November and I guess current notations are going poor. I hope they all walk out.


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## slatham (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> Quarantine for 2 weeks, day trip on the weekend. Home for 2 weeks, no going out to satisfy the quarantine rules. How many days have you gotten since the beginning of the season? And how many days will you get?


If you quarantine (7 days/negative test or 14 days) and then go to VT, you don't break your VT quarantine by simply crossing state lines to go home. You break it if you have to go to work or school or visit people or doctors visit or shopping etc etc. Not saying this is easy, but you can leave VT, not break quarantine, and then go back. Again, lots of people can't do this. But you only have to "re-quarantine" of you break quarantine.

Now going to the local deli to stock up for your trip back to VT is definitely a no no......


----------



## cdskier (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> now THAT is hyperbole!
> 
> next, you’ll be calling 2nd home owners Vermonters too!
> 
> Why do you think Hunter is sold out while Mt Snow is not? Is it because Hunter has better skiing?



Sorry...was busy out playing in the powder with all the people VT resorts are supposedly inaccessible to.

Unless you know the capacity Vail is using at each resort, comparing the two is irrelevant. With all lifts running, Mt Snow has about 50% more uphill capacity than Hunter. And Mt Snow (with the exception of Wind Holds today) has nearly every lift running. Meanwhile Hunter still hasn't opened Hunter West so loses a decent chunk of capacity there.

So Hunter could have a capacity of say 5000 reservations per day while Mt Snow could have a limit of 7500 people per day. Just because Hunter sells all 5000 and Mt Snow doesn't sell out all 7500 doesn't mean more people are going to Hunter because they can't go to VT. Hunter has been crowded on weekends even pre-COVID. A lot of people going there on a weekend isn't a new phenomenon. In terms of other Epic resorts in VT, Stowe is sold out. I somehow doubt it is only Vermonters there. Okemo isn't sold out, but again, they likely have a larger reservation capacity than Hunter (their uphill capacity is normally 84% higher than Hunter's if I did the math right so again having more reservations allowed there makes sense).

PS...why would I call 2nd home owners Vermonters? That makes absolutely no sense. Instead they're a perfect example of non-Vermonters that the resorts are not inaccessible to (the number of wifi signals and number of out of state people staying here in my condo complex midweek instead of going home is much higher than what you'd usually see as an example).


----------



## thebigo (Jan 17, 2021)

To my knowledge none of the four nh properties have sold out a single day this year. Today the line for the bear quad ran back to the triple and curled uphill. The abenaki and Kachina lifts were closed.

Yesterday the line at wildcat ran into the snowcat line at one point and shit was flowing out of the porta john. The bobcat was closed.

I have no idea how they calculate capacity but if neither day this weekend were sold out, they are never going to sell out.


----------



## Edd (Jan 17, 2021)

thebigo said:


> To my knowledge none of the four nh properties have sold out a single day this year. Today the line for the bear quad ran back to the triple and curled uphill. The abenaki and Kachina lifts were closed.
> 
> Yesterday the line at wildcat ran into the snowcat line at one point and shit was flowing out of the porta john. The bobcat was closed.
> 
> I have no idea how they calculate capacity but if neither day this weekend were sold out, they are never going to sell out.


Heard a rumor that the Bobcat won’t be up anytime soon. With the HSQ on wind hold this morning the Tomcat lines looked longer than I’ve ever seen.


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2021)

Due to less queue lanes because of the social distancing lanes, and more groups per lane, due to not being able to pair unrelated groups up and fill the chair to capacity, on the surface, the lines are most likely going to be longer in length than in a normal year. More groups and less lanes will do that.

Heck, I saw numerous lines at Mount Snow today that length wise were far greater than I have seen in my 40yrs of skiing here. 

The outer parking lots though, weren't close to being full, and there are no tour busses here, which are two things usually associated with BIG lines in the past.

I don't know what their target max capacity number is. We were sold out this weekend here today. It's crowded, no doubt about that. The parking lots though aren't completely filled as they usually would be probably a handful of days a season.

This season is so messed up!!


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## abc (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> was busy out playing in the powder with all the people VT resorts are supposedly inaccessible to.


Yeah, eastern "powder"!

(Got a first hand report from my host in VT how "powdery" the snow is today)

He called me to tell me there's no power in the house I would have been staying... (had he not caught me 15 minutes into my drive).


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> Yeah, eastern "powder"!
> 
> (Got a first hand report from my host in VT how "powdery" the snow is today)
> 
> He called me to tell me there's no power in the house I would have been staying... (had he not caught me 15 minutes into my drive).


Maybe so vt didn’t have powder yesterday but no vt did.


----------



## Edd (Jan 17, 2021)

I’ve been skiing solo more than usual this year. It’d be nice if there was a singles line specifically for people that don’t mind getting paired with another single. It’d speed things up a bit.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> Yeah, eastern "powder"!
> 
> (Got a first hand report from my host in VT how "powdery" the snow is today)
> 
> He called me to tell me there's no power in the house I would have been staying... (had he not caught me 15 minutes into my drive).



Not sure why you even post on a forum focused on the northeast with how picky you are about conditions here...Today was great out. I can't speak for everywhere in VT, but here in the MRV area the backend snow has been very enjoyable and definitely a fun type of powder. It wasn't super-light blower pow, but so what? It also wasn't the heavier dense snow that fell on the front end of the storm.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2021)

At Snowbird today.  Amazing how different it is when IKON is blacked out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’ve been skiing solo more than usual this year. It’d be nice if there was a singles line specifically for people that don’t mind getting paired with another single. It’d speed things up a bit.


Crotched had a singles line for the rocket today and were doing just that.  Line took ten minutes to get through tops.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2021)

thebigo said:


> To my knowledge none of the four nh properties have sold out a single day this year. Today the line for the bear quad ran back to the triple and curled uphill. The abenaki and Kachina lifts were closed.
> 
> Yesterday the line at wildcat ran into the snowcat line at one point and shit was flowing out of the porta john. The bobcat was closed.
> 
> I have no idea how they calculate capacity but if neither day this weekend were sold out, they are never going to sell out.



Sunapee has a few times.  They were today when I was looking at adjusting reservations on Thursday


----------



## abc (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Not sure why you even post on a forum focused on the northeast with how picky you are about conditions here..


Oh, so this forum is only for a certain kind of NE skier?   

If you don't ski a lot, you shouldn't post

If you don't ski in the rain, you shouldn't post 

If you ski groomers only, you shouldn't post

If you don't ski on the opening, you shouldn't post

If you can't stand in line for half an hour, you shouldn't post

...


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## Rowsdower (Jan 17, 2021)

JFBB's Insta this morning had a half dozen "please work here" ads for everything from ski patrol to snowmaking to lifties, and that hasn't been usual of them on social media this season either. Given some other chatter I've heard it seems like Vail is having trouble retaining staff.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> And wildcat can’t groom it’s two trails every night. So frustrating


THAT'S effing pathetic!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Not sure why you even post on a forum focused on the northeast with how picky you are about conditions here...Today was great out. I can't speak for everywhere in VT, but here in the MRV area the backend snow has been very enjoyable and definitely a fun type of powder. It wasn't super-light blower pow, but so what? It also wasn't the heavier dense snow that fell on the front end of the storm.
> 
> View attachment 50062


Man, I miss Sugarbush.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2021)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> THAT'S effing pathetic!


They have to pay their employees


----------



## cdskier (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> Oh, so this forum is only for a certain kind of NE skier?
> 
> If you don't ski a lot, you shouldn't post
> 
> ...


That's certainly not what I said. I just don't understand what you get out of posting here when you complain about every little thing and find tons of excuses to not ski here. And when people say they're out having fun, you try to put down their experience.


----------



## abc (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> when people say they're out having fun, you try to put down their experience.


I rarely put down other people's fun day, unless it's used in a context that suggests anyone who doesn't ski in that condition is not worthy as a skier.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 17, 2021)

[QUO+1TE="cdskier, post: 1059049, member: 25258"]
That's certainly not what I said. I just don't understand what you get out of posting here when you complain about every little thing and find tons of excuses to not ski here. And when people say they're out having fun, you try to put down their experience.
[/QUOTE]
+100+

 I agree


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 17, 2021)

abc said:


> I rarely put down other people's fun day, unless it's used in a context that suggests anyone who doesn't ski in that condition is not worthy as a skier.


I think u post changed over the last 10yrears I used you now 1 of the people on AZ that keeps other s from going on in my opinion
Many positive positive posters have left AZ for negative posters in my opinion


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Sorry...was busy out playing in the powder with all the people VT resorts are supposedly inaccessible to.
> 
> Unless you know the capacity Vail is using at each resort, comparing the two is irrelevant. With all lifts running, Mt Snow has about 50% more uphill capacity than Hunter. And Mt Snow (with the exception of Wind Holds today) has nearly every lift running. Meanwhile Hunter still hasn't opened Hunter West so loses a decent chunk of capacity there.
> 
> ...



Hunter is now crowded on weekdays too. This photo is the line of people waiting to pick up lift tickets on Wednesday morning.   I've been skiing Hunter on Wednesdays for 25 years and have never seen anything like this before.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 17, 2021)

Rowsdower said:


> JFBB's Insta this morning had a half dozen "please work here" ads for everything from ski patrol to snowmaking to lifties, and that hasn't been usual of them on social media this season either. Given some other chatter I've heard it seems like Vail is having trouble retaining staff.


That’s what happens when you pay like shit, treat your employees like shit, and take any and all fun out of working in the ski industry.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 17, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> Hunter is now crowded on weekdays too. This photo is the line of people waiting to pick up lift tickets on Wednesday morning.   I've been skiing Hunter on Wednesdays for 25 years and have never seen anything like this before.
> 
> View attachment 50068


The reality is for probably 1001 reasons, how we live our lives today, especially with time management, is vastly different than 25 yrs ago.

A much greater portion of the population, across all age demographics, have the ability to ski midweek now, and as a result, for many resorts (mega pass affiliated or not) are seeing increases in volume then.

When you also factor in the number of people who do have one (or more) passes, and they want to get their monies worth from their passes, you see a the crowd volume ticking up many days a week.

This year in particular, when you have folks, from Covid concerns, wanting to both ski/ride and avoid the typical busier weekend days, that's certainly driving some midweek volume. Also factor in with many school aged (from college on down to elementary school) students having the flexibility that remote learning gives many of them, that adds to the midweek volume as well.

Will this trend continue when we get society reopened back up to close to "normal"? Only time will tell.

There are certainly factors beyond just the rise of the mega passes, that are in the discussion as well


----------



## Mainer (Jan 17, 2021)

Looks like attitash figured out how to delete Facebook posts. First smart move of the year for them. Didn’t groom half the mountain. Lines at bear stretched to kachina triple. Can’t run Abenaki even though the snow is mounded and ready to groom. Pathetic


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Looks like attitash figured out how to delete Facebook posts. First smart move of the year for them. Didn’t groom half the mountain. Lines at bear stretched to kachina triple. Can’t run Abenaki even though the snow is mounded and ready to groom. Pathetic


Yep, I've had a less than stellar post removed. Whatever, it can't make me renew the pass. Only another big credit could accomplish that, but still the doubtful.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Looks like attitash figured out how to delete Facebook posts. First smart move of the year for them. Didn’t groom half the mountain. Lines at bear stretched to kachina triple. Can’t run Abenaki even though the snow is mounded and ready to groom. Pathetic


What wasn't groomed? Problem on illusion and idiots was they groomed it wet, then it froze solid after grooming. 

Cannot believe there is no contract between some hoa and the mountain to run abenaki by a certain date. Why did they blow and groom the top of snowdancer if they had no intention to run the lift?


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Looks like attitash figured out how to delete Facebook posts. First smart move of the year for them. Didn’t groom half the mountain. Lines at bear stretched to kachina triple. Can’t run Abenaki even though the snow is mounded and ready to groom. Pathetic


I actually found Attitash quite pleasant this weekend especially for a holiday during covid. I’m much happier up here than I was a couple of weeks ago.

Lines were somewhat long during peak hours but there were lots of folks flying solo on lifts. Do I wish they opened more lifts?  Absolutely but I’m grateful that the Yankee was spinning.

humphreys ledge, northwest passage, and far out skiied well all day. Morning star and snow dancerwere nice today as well.

If you talk to staff here they’re trying like hell but have limited staff for a variety of reasons.

Pray for snow and cold weather. This won’t be the best season but it’s looking up!


----------



## Mainer (Jan 17, 2021)

As a lifelong skier at attitash, I guess this is the new normal under vail. For one of the three biggest weekends of the year to have 3 lifts (double/double is one in my book)Not running is acceptable to you that is fine. Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> As a lifelong skier at attitash, I guess this is the new normal under vail. For one of the three biggest weekends of the year to have 3 lifts (double/double is one in my book)Not running is acceptable to you that is fine. Different strokes for different folks.


I actually don’t understand why they don’t run the double that stops at the top of the learning center instead of the triple. I wish they would!

The chairs are on the doubles now. Not that long ago they were on the ground.


----------



## McFatt (Jan 17, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.
> 
> Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!!
> 
> ...


Ok, Boomer


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Looks like attitash figured out how to delete Facebook posts. First smart move of the year for them. Didn’t groom half the mountain. Lines at bear stretched to kachina triple. Can’t run Abenaki even though the snow is mounded and ready to groom. Pathetic


That is a desperate move by them.  

And are they sharing grooming operators with Attitash or something?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> If you talk to staff here they’re trying like hell but have limited staff for a variety of reasons.


This.  I feel so bad for the on-the-ground staff who have to take the brunt of the negative feedback.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2021)

FBGM said:


> That’s what happens when you pay like shit, treat your employees like shit, and take any and all fun out of working in the ski industry.



I viewed the, "you MUST wear a certain color coat" as a warning sign.


----------



## gittist (Jan 18, 2021)

Hey, all you Vail bashers!  What about?

Vail Resorts Named One of ‘America’s Best Employers’ by Forbes​
[ I bet this gets a few people wound up :-]

I won't my money's worth from my EPIC pass this year either, and by the look of things I won't be buying lift tickets elsewhere either :-(


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> Hey, all you Vail bashers!  What about?
> 
> Vail Resorts Named One of ‘America’s Best Employers’ by Forbes​
> [ I bet this gets a few people wound up :-]
> ...


I wonder how much Vail paid to get on that list


----------



## snoseek (Jan 18, 2021)

I worked for them for 5 winters and year round for a couple years. I had lots of fun but wouldn't call it a positive work experience overall let alone top employer worthy.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 18, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I grew up skiing in the 60's, my Dad grew up skiing in the late 30's (Stowe) into 1941, then the war.  I happened to ask him one day (Late 50's) what he was reading, and it was a ski or skiing magazine.  He decided that if I wanted to know what he was reading, the pictures must have interested me, so rental skis, and repeat tries on the small hill in the front yard. (Winter of 59-60).  Soon after I could do that, we went up to Gunstock.  A few lessons and he could leave me and my sisters in the beginner area and he could take the main lift for a few runs.  Mom (Whole different skiing story) sat in the lodge so us kids could have a place to go with a parent. (Remember, its the early 60's.)  As time progressed I skied more and more with my Dad as my skills got better, and my sisters decided other things were more important.  Fast forward to the late 60's, and we were going north most Saturday's.   If it was open, we skied Whittier as it was steep and nearest.  Early and late season it was up to Wildcat, 2 t-bars, a gondola, and the upper mountain double (Lynx chair).  If Wildcat was closed for wind, we would go elsewhere, like Cranmore, or to a little place called Tyrol.  Tyrol only had a Poma platter lift, and was more of less maybe equal to or smaller than Bradford in Haverhill, Ma.  I asked one day why we bothered skiing such a small hill, and his answer was, "It's skiing, we came up here to ski".  I learned Dad could be happy on any type of snow, and any type hill as long as he could ski.  As we grow up idolizing our parents for the most part, I learned to be happy skiing most anything that had decent snow.  Low crowds were a rarity, and most lift lines were tedious, but that was how skiing in the 60's was.
> 
> Once I had kids, and they got interested in skiing, off we went.  My kids got bored at a few places we went, but I told them that it was skiing, would they rather do something else, because if they wanted to, I'd leave them home to do it.  Now they are good skiing anywhere that is open, and have learned they actually like trying new places no matter what the maps on web sites look like because.....IT'S SKIING!!!
> 
> ...


great post - great story. Only disagree with ' ALL are VERY spoiled brats'. Most maybe,  but not all.  Those stories are what got me into skiing - my Dada took me to MT Snow as a kid, but he didn't have enough  dough to pay for 4 kids to ski, but he had to get some final turns in. I just saw people ( at maybe 6 yrs old) jumping from snow banks into a heated pool and skiing down a huge hill- and I was hooked.  Wasn['t until I was 22 that I got on skis. 


A thought: If those born after say 1980- or next gen - 1995- are spoiled. . . . . .WHO spoiled them? We gotta look in the mirror . . . . 

Best powder weekend of the year by far - saw my tracks on that last pic! Not blower - but heavy on Sat and lighter but firmer dry on Sunday - trees are not about ready. And if you hiked CR - well - over knees in places - if your moving at a pace. . . . .  shhhhhhhhhhhh


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## abc (Jan 18, 2021)

1dog said:


> A thought: If those born after say 1980- or next gen - 1995- are spoiled. . . . . .WHO spoiled them? We gotta look in the mirror




No, it's their teachers, the media, the technology... NOT our fellow parents, never mind ourselves!


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## Dickc (Jan 18, 2021)

McFatt said:


> Ok, Boomer


Get of my lawn!!!!  :>)


----------



## 1dog (Jan 18, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Get of my lawn!!!!  :>)


Clint in Gran Torino. . .  . great flick.  As far as who's responsible - teachers, media, et al, are all endorsed/kept in power by said parents. 1st line of defense is the parental responsibility. If it really gets bad ( it has) then homeschooling and shutting the media off helps. Not everyones cup of tea - but you are correct, it ultimately sits  w/the individual.  Snow was just marvelous this weekend. 

If Vail sux, its not really the year to make a judgement - no employees, not much natural snow but geez, since VT is limiting the visits, you'd think NH would be packed full. Was no big traffic jam on Friday night from what I understand. . . . . .


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 18, 2021)

1dog said:


> great post - great story. Only disagree with ' ALL are VERY spoiled brats'. Most maybe,  but not all.  Those stories are what got me into skiing - my Dada took me to MT Snow as a kid, but he didn't have enough  dough to pay for 4 kids to ski, but he had to get some final turns in. I just saw people ( at maybe 6 yrs old) jumping from snow banks into a heated pool and skiing down a huge hill- and I was hooked.  Wasn['t until I was 22 that I got on skis.
> 
> 
> A thought: If those born after say 1980- or next gen - 1995- are spoiled. . . . . .WHO spoiled them? We gotta look in the mirror . . . .
> ...


Grew up skiing Whittier in the 70's, that place was gnarly for sure.
Skied Tyrol in Jackson too


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2021)

Solid performance by Vail at Wildcat today.  Hard not to have a good time with 14" from the recent storm.  Had the mountain about 60% open officially and 90% realistically.  

15-20 minute line for the quad mid morning, so they did the right thing and opened the Tomcat and it was still spinning at 2 when I was done 

Snowmaking happening on Upper Catapult.  

Definitely need Wild Kitten to come online with snowmaking and grooming.  If they do that, Cheetah and Alley Cat it will be a very late, but respectable effort


----------



## thebigo (Jan 18, 2021)

Was scheduled at wildcat today. Got an email over the weekend that attitash was adding today to the seasonal program. No extra cost, just an extra day of coaching added for the kids. They also mixed in some new coaches and daughter accomplished some park stuff she had been working towards all year. Not to say that there is anything wrong with any of the coaches, they are all excellent, sometimes kids hearing it form another person helps. It was a really good day all around.

The concern that snowmaking would wane as we move through the season was unfounded. They were blowing pt which will nearly finish the upper mountain on the attitash side. Also several trails around abenaki, including the connection with the lift. They have been working on Kachina falls with the tripod guns for over a week, that short section requires an absurd amount of snow.

I agree the effort today was respectable. I will never understand the prioritization of the triple trails over the yankee but that is a choice, not a lack of effort. If the long term forecast holds, we are headed for a good run. A good percentage of the December BS would be forgivable if they would only communicate. An easy place to start would be some indication of where they are making snow, put some damn snowflakes on the trail list where they put the groomers. The next step, albeit more difficult, would be an email to passholders or social media post acknowledging the massive strain that staffing has put on operations along with some framework for the remainder of the season.


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 18, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I wonder how much Vail paid to get on that list


I agree. I interviewed for a financial analyst job about 4-5 years ago with Vail in Colorado. Ended up saying thanks but no thanks when they asked if the pay of $13/hr was acceptable for me. I can get at least $22/hr around here for the same job at the time.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2021)

Tomcat closed at 2:15. Ski patrol said that they made the mountain open tomcat, had to run a patroller as top lifty. Amazing what a foot will do, so nice to be able ski something other than 2icy trails.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 19, 2021)

the  lack of staffing in the east, I can't speak for the west, is just an unbelievable sign of ineptitude.  My local hill is practically begging for lift staff. I'm guessing they had a bunch of college kids working and now they are all unavailable.  I'm tempted to apply and work 1 shift a week and get my pass paid for!  If you bought a pass, and you take a job at the mountain, they refund you your pass cost after 1 shift.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Jan 19, 2021)

I don't think it is fair to blame Vail for the lack of staffing this year.  They rely heavily on their international staff and this year those visas are suspended.  Are they understaffed?  1000% yes.  There are other shortcomings that I am noticing with Vail vs. Peak, but I am hopeful that this one goes away next year if the visa program returns...


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2021)

Those extra unemployment checks are real killer. So many people took the summer off because they made more money on unemployment. You didn’t even have to apply for a job at that time. The extra $300 now does the same thing. The lack of foreign workers doesn’t help, but the mountains knew all summer about not having them and didn’t plan. The only area in mwv really suffering from lack of staff is attitash. But they started hiring after everyone else and pay less. Still not advertising, looks like yankee is definitely weekends only.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 19, 2021)

maybe they shouldn't rely so heavily on foreigners and pay better


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## Mainer (Jan 19, 2021)

Mwv also is the only school district in nh to have presidents week off instead of the next week. Why, so the high school kids can work at the mountain. Labor has always been a problem here. When you know somethings coming and don’t plan better, that’s just stupidity. And it’s the locals paying the price with a mountain not running midweek lifts they always ran. Also the mwv chamber pass wasn’t offered this year because vail wouldn’t join the chamber. They just did 2 weeks ago. No more dependent passes unless it’s your child. Vail doesn’t give a shit about locals.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 19, 2021)

Vail has a lot to learn about northeastern and mid-Atlantic skiing.  If they're smart, they're realize they can still make a lot of money in these areas, but they require a completely different operational plan than their destination resorts in the mountain west. 

I'm cautiously giving them a pass because of COVID, but will still be critical of them not hiring soon enough.  that was a common theme in the east.  It makes no sense.


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## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2021)

I would wait until the 22-23 season to even think of getting an epic just to see if the f up next season as well.


----------



## skimagic (Jan 19, 2021)

Visitation to VR reported as down through the new year, no surprise since its been way below average for snow.- no mention of eastern performance in this Nasdaq snippet


V_ail Resorts, a mountain resort company, reported a 16.6% year-over-year decline in ski visitation across North America for the season-to-date period ending Jan. 3, 2021. The weak ski season metric reflects travel restrictions and a decline in demand amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Shares of Vail Resorts fell 3.7% on Friday.


Vail Resorts (*MTN*) said that its season-to-date ski visits declined primarily due to lower lift ticket purchases. The company’s season-to-date lift ticket revenues declined by 20.9% year-over-year.

Vail also witnessed a 52.6% drop in ski school revenue and a 66.2% decline in dining revenue in the season-to-date period. Vail’s retail/rental sales for North American resort and ski area locations also declined 39.2% compared to the year-ago season-to-date period.  

The company’s CEO Rob Katz said, “We expect these declines were primarily driven by reduced demand for destination visitation at our western resorts and COVID-19 related capacity limitations which were further impacted by snowfall levels that were well below average at our Colorado, Utah and Tahoe resorts through the holiday season

*“The company should focus on building guest loyalty in 2021 in order to see the benefits in 2022.”*_


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 19, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> I don't think it is fair to blame Vail for the lack of staffing this year.  They rely heavily on their international staff and this year those visas are suspended.  Are they understaffed?  1000% yes.  There are other shortcomings that I am noticing with Vail vs. Peak, but I am hopeful that this one goes away next year if the visa program returns...


They dug the hole themselves by building a model around flooding the market with foreign labor and driving away local work by suppressing wages and paying below market rates.  It's true the pandemic caused the j1 shortage, but Vail made the problems worse for themselves 

Also, Vail literally waited til the last minute to start hiring staff instead of spending the summer trying to recruit.  By the time they started hiring, the already small labor pool was even smaller.  


The return of foreign help next year will certainly help, however they still need to fix the problem they have with hiring domestic workers, and they might be doing some irreparable damage to that with some of the corporate decisions they're making this winter


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I would wait until the 22-23 season to even think of getting an epic just to see if the f up next season as well.


That's where my mind is at.  Cannon next year and reevaluate for the following season if Vail has earned my business back. Yesterday was a reminder that as long as Cat is 70-80% open with trails like Upper Wildcat, Catenary and Schuss skiing well, it's my favorite place to ski in New Hampshire.  

But I need to know that a decent amount of snowmaking terrain is going to be reliably open for Xmas week if not sooner.  This is especially true with the shortened season length.  To me that means the three primary TTB routes and a couple others off Bobcat chair.  I'd imagine others feel the Snowcat terrain needs to be open by Xmas as well.  That's enough to keep me entertained until the natural terrain fills in.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2021)

I read somewhere bobcat failed inspection, could just be a rumor


----------



## FBGM (Jan 19, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> I don't think it is fair to blame Vail for the lack of staffing this year.  They rely heavily on their international staff and this year those visas are suspended.  Are they understaffed?  1000% yes.  There are other shortcomings that I am noticing with Vail vs. Peak, but I am hopeful that this one goes away next year if the visa program returns...


Or vail can pay a decent wage and hire people in the community. I grew up skiing a small hill and all employees were from the area. Yes, it was small and total employees were like 50. But still. Hire close


----------



## thebigo (Jan 19, 2021)

Quick look at job postings on website explains it all in NH:

Wildcat - 37 jobs
Attitash - 40 jobs, several year round
Crotched - 0 jobs
Sunapee - 5 jobs, all seasonal

I recollect many south american and eastern european name tags at attitash over the years, both summer and winter, but not at wildcat.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 19, 2021)

Funny how a small place like Plattekill has.....no problems.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 19, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Funny how a small place like Plattekill has.....no problems.


Not really...they're so small that they don't need that many staff. And with being open only on weekends, that makes it easier again.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 19, 2021)

True..but they do it right. Between the mega passes and covid, most resorts are just having a tough time. I'm just going to ride it out and see how things go next season. 
So far this season has been way better than I thought though. If one place is a nightmare..try another.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2021)

Another factor to consider is ski passes are so cheap now, they aren't the incentive they used to be as a job perk.  If I'm a local F&B worker, the math just doesn't add up.  I likely make more money at an independent restaurant with fewer layoffs than working at the ski area themselves. I'll just keep my local gig and buy a pass.  

Moral of the story, the mountains need to be paying better if they want to avoid staffing shortages.


----------



## Quietman (Jan 19, 2021)

Or, the greater risk of exposure to Covid while working at the mtn wasn't worth the free pass for who's knows what of a ski season when the hills started hiring in Oct/Nov.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 19, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Quick look at job postings on website explains it all in NH:
> 
> Wildcat - 37 jobs
> Attitash - 40 jobs, several year round
> ...


Look at the dates the jobs at Attitash were posted.......


----------



## 1dog (Jan 19, 2021)

So we import foreign workers -who wouldn't want to come to the US to experience what we have- and then potentially pay them less, but have to put them up in housing and maybe even feed/transport them back and forth to mt?

In a full-employment economy that seems ok, but don't they have the same employment minimums other employees have? Don't they have higher costs associated with housing, transport, and food?  

Or, are we that spoiled as US residents that we don't have kids 16 and up to cover those positions? I have no answers, but I do know as an employer that my costs for a $15 per hour employee is approx $17+ when you add in employer  SS/Medicare match, PTO, FLA, health insurance, and a few other mandated costs. Maybe foreign workers don't need to have those covered or maybe it's low enough to not have to report to IRS as permanent employees? I dunno, but large companies pay fortunes to lobbyists to keep the gravy train of migrant workers open.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 19, 2021)

Pulling perks from patrollers is not the best idea either..they don't grow on trees. Wonder how that will play out in the future.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2021)

1dog said:


> So we import foreign workers -who wouldn't want to come to the US to experience what we have- and then potentially pay them less, but have to put them up in housing and maybe even feed/transport them back and forth to mt?
> 
> In a full-employment economy that seems ok, but don't they have the same employment minimums other employees have? Don't they have higher costs associated with housing, transport, and food?
> 
> Or, are we that spoiled as US residents that we don't have kids 16 and up to cover those positions? I have no answers, but I do know as an employer that my costs for a $15 per hour employee is approx $17+ when you add in employer  SS/Medicare match, PTO, FLA, health insurance, and a few other mandated costs. Maybe foreign workers don't need to have those covered or maybe it's low enough to not have to report to IRS as permanent employees? I dunno, but large companies pay fortunes to lobbyists to keep the gravy train of migrant workers open.


The point is that local employees: (a) are not available; (b) are taking higher paying jobs; and/or (c) are not skilled in these areas.  For a lot of resort towns, it is usually (a) and (b).  The pay for these jobs is not enough to live in the areas.  And the seasonal nature of the work is not desirable for most people.  And I am pretty sure that most resorts charge the employees room and board for their time in the U.S.  But this is moot because, at last check, the Trump Administration ended/limited the number of visas for this program.


----------



## skiur (Jan 19, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> I don't think it is fair to blame Vail for the lack of staffing this year.  They rely heavily on their international staff and this year those visas are suspended.  Are they understaffed?  1000% yes.  There are other shortcomings that I am noticing with Vail vs. Peak, but I am hopeful that this one goes away next year if the visa program returns...



Other resorts are short staffed as well due to no foreign staff, but the problem seems much worse at vail resorts.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 19, 2021)

You know what really sucks is when your staff is pretty much 50/50 foreign to local staff and on the shoulder you have to meet a minimum amount of hours to fulfill the foreigners contract while the local dude that is more skilled and comes back year after year starved. Good times....


----------



## ss20 (Jan 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Another factor to consider is ski passes are so cheap now, they aren't the incentive they used to be as a job perk.  If I'm a local F&B worker, the math just doesn't add up.  I likely make more money at an independent restaurant with fewer layoffs than working at the ski area themselves. I'll just keep my local gig and buy a pass.
> 
> Moral of the story, the mountains need to be paying better if they want to avoid staffing shortages.



This 1000%.  Either pay above minimum wage or make season passes expensive again....that's how you'll get staff back.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 19, 2021)

ss20 said:


> This 1000%.  Either pay above minimum wage or make season passes expensive again....that's how you'll get staff back.


The McDonalds in North Conway has a sign out-front offering $2500 in tuition reimbursement....


----------



## FBGM (Jan 19, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> The McDonalds in North Conway has a sign out-front offering $2500 in tuition reimbursement....


The McDonalds and other fast food restaurants in Park City start at higher wage then a lifty and probably the restaurant workers and even year 1 snowmakers.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2021)

FBGM said:


> The McDonalds and other fast food restaurants in Park City start at higher wage then a lifty and probably the restaurant workers and even year 1 snowmakers.


Exactly.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2021)

skiur said:


> Other resorts are short staffed as well due to no foreign staff, but the problem seems much worse at vail resorts.


Yes, makes sense.  They help the bottom line by relying on cheap labor = foreign help.  So Vail relied (too much) upon foreign labor.


----------



## abc (Jan 19, 2021)

ss20 said:


> pay *above* minimum wage


THIS!


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jan 19, 2021)

FBGM said:


> That’s what happens when you pay like shit, treat your employees like shit, and take any and all fun out of working in the ski industry.





skiur said:


> Other resorts are short staffed as well due to no foreign staff, but the problem seems much worse at vail resorts.



Lots of people work at ski resorts for the experience, not for the money. From what I hear, Vail has managed to take the fun out of ski resort work. The lifties don't even get to ski down when they go on break from the top of a lift.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 19, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Lots of people work at ski resorts for the experience, not for the money. From what I hear, Vail has managed to take the fun out of ski resort work. The lifties don't even get to ski down when they go on break from the top of a lift.


That's really pathetic.

Corporation and fun don't go together. This cannot end well for skiers.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

Just look at Hunter. Used to be run by a family. I used to sit across from Orville in the cafeteria. Patrollers where taken care of. Place ran very well. Different place now.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 20, 2021)

Same is true of both SR & Wildcat.
I was on a first name basis w/ LBO, descent benefits & treated fairly for 20 years, until Boyne took over '08.

As for Wildcat, we had Lifetime season passes until 2010 when the Franchi family sold to Peaks' and they decided NOT to honor that agreement.

Now - Vail sucks compared to what we all experienced for 20-30 years prior.
No comparison, not even close. Especially for a 50 year Cat/SR skier


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 20, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Just look at Hunter. Used to be run by a family. I used to sit across from Orville in the cafeteria. Patrollers where taken care of. Place ran very well. Different place now.


I agree 1000000%%%!!!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> The point is that local employees: (a) are not available; (b) are taking higher paying jobs; and/or (c) are not skilled in these areas.  For a lot of resort towns, it is usually (a) and (b).  The pay for these jobs is not enough to live in the areas.  And the seasonal nature of the work is not desirable for most people.  And I am pretty sure that most resorts charge the employees room and board for their time in the U.S.  But this is moot because, at last check, the Trump Administration ended/limited the number of visas for this program.



There also seems to be somewhat of a notion amongst some, that ski towns


snoseek said:


> You know what really sucks is when your staff is pretty much 50/50 foreign to local staff and on the shoulder you have to meet a minimum amount of hours to fulfill the foreigners contract while the local dude that is more skilled and comes back year after year starved. Good times....



Let me give some perspective about my home mountain, Mount Snow, and the number of employees that they need to operate at "full staff" in a normal year, and how that is basically an impossibility, without the foreign workers, when you factor in the population of the surrounding communities, as well as the other businesses that need employees as well as the other ski areas (The Hermitage, Stratton, Bromley, and Magic) that also also looking for employees from that general area as well.

Mount Snow at full Winter staff, has give or take a little, about 1200 employees. True that some, especially instructors/coaches/patrollers/ambassadors are people who have second homes/seasonal rentals in the area and set their schedules based on when they'll be there (usually the times of highest demand), but that is a minority number of employees by far.

If you take the populations of the 2 counties (Windham and Bennington) that make up roughly the Southern 1/4 of VT, the total, full time population is just under 80k.  That just isn't an abundance of people, who are full time residents of the region that they draw the majority of their employees from, especially when you factor in that some of those people are not in the work force at all as either retirees or too young, or other reasons. Then add in the other businesses that need employees as well, and you do have a shortage of potential employees to staff to the full amount that you need to operate as you want to.

That doesn't even get into the simple fact that many jobs at a ski area are seasonal, as the year round demand for the quantities of employees to staff the full, prime time ski season, is far more than the other say 9ish months of the year.

Without a doubt, the majority of ski areas, especially larger ski areas, do need to find and recruit a sizable number of employees from outside of their immediate geographic area, and that, regardless of what the pay level is, is just the reality of the situation. Is there a "better" way to do things? Probably. Will it take some type of paradigm shift with movements of pieces of the population from some regions where they may live now to other regions? Possibly. Is that something where we want to get into where in essence people are "told" where they have to live? That seems like a very slippery slope type thing there if you ask me


----------



## abc (Jan 20, 2021)

Looks like this latest storm gave Vail a decent boost. Wildcat is showing almost all trail open!

But, with no man-made underneath the foot or so of new natural snow, I wonder how well does it ski? Rocks and grass all nicely covered up? And how well it last before it got beaten down? 

More importantly, any of the woods skiable? 

(am contemplating a trip up there, sometime between now and before the next holiday period)


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 20, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Just look at Hunter. Used to be run by a family. I used to sit across from Orville in the cafeteria. Patrollers where taken care of. Place ran very well. Different place now.


Used to see Orville and Izzy clearing dirty tables in the lodge. I'd like to see Rob Katz do that.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 20, 2021)

Wildcat is probably 50/50 dirt snow mix on natural trails. Bottom of mountain has a mean crust. Definitely rock ski material. Natural trails aren’t going to last long without another storm.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There also seems to be somewhat of a notion amongst some, that ski towns
> 
> 
> Let me give some perspective about my home mountain, Mount Snow, and the number of employees that they need to operate at "full staff" in a normal year, and how that is basically an impossibility, without the foreign workers, when you factor in the population of the surrounding communities, as well as the other businesses that need employees as well as the other ski areas (The Hermitage, Stratton, Bromley, and Magic) that also also looking for employees from that general area as well.
> ...


But the entire town of Bennington is on crack or H and has no job and needs a job. Yes they would have to sober up and be a decent human, but there’s your workforce.


----------



## 1dog (Jan 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There also seems to be somewhat of a notion amongst some, that ski towns
> 
> 
> Let me give some perspective about my home mountain, Mount Snow, and the number of employees that they need to operate at "full staff" in a normal year, and how that is basically an impossibility, without the foreign workers, when you factor in the population of the surrounding communities, as well as the other businesses that need employees as well as the other ski areas (The Hermitage, Stratton, Bromley, and Magic) that also also looking for employees from that general area as well.
> ...


This makes sense.  I'm curious to know what happened to the college kids who worked the mountain to get a pass( on weekends) - or the local second job family in area who could use the extra $7-10K in income during heating season or mud season when few tourists are around.

The higher than normal min wage argument just doesn't work. Of all the studies done on government-imposed minimum wage mandates, 85% illustrate it does the opposite of what's it's intended to do.  I'm referring to Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams, or Uncle Milt ( Friedman) and many more.

Takes hours away from those who do work, limits higher wage people from staying on ( because they can earn more elsewhere that doesn't have those entry-level employees. It makes the cost of the service or the product higher priced and out of reach for the lower and middle income families. If it DID work, why not have a $25 min wage like Switzerland? Or $30? 

Kind of like MMT for individuals. . . . .  the end is not going to be pretty . . .


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## 1dog (Jan 20, 2021)

FBGM said:


> But the entire town of Bennington is on crack or H and has no job and needs a job. Yes they would have to sober up and be a decent human, but there’s your workforce.


Now THAT would be funny - if not so true. . . .


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Looks like this latest storm gave Vail a decent boost. Wildcat is showing almost all trail open!
> 
> But, with no man-made underneath the foot or so of new natural snow, I wonder how well does it ski? Rocks and grass all nicely covered up? And how well it last before it got beaten down?
> 
> ...



Most of the natural snow trails skied great on Monday.  Didn't duck into the woods.  They were lightly trafficked from what I saw.  The mountain is probably 12-18" of additional natural base  away for everything to be game on. Just a few small storms in the 5-6" range would get it done.


----------



## catskillman (Jan 20, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Lots of people work at ski resorts for the experience, not for the money. From what I hear, Vail has managed to take the fun out of ski resort work. The lifties don't even get to ski down when they go on break from the top of a lift.


not true at hunter I am told.  They can ski on lunch when off clock...  I would say about  90% of the employees do not ski or board however


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> Used to see Orville and Izzy clearing dirty tables in the lodge. I'd like to see Rob Katz do that.


He is too busy making podcasts.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

Gore is making snow on Rumor and Lies..hmmm..and the west side of Hunter is..dead. Score one for NY owned mountain.  Thats a shame.


----------



## LonghornSkier (Jan 20, 2021)

Hunter is blowing on Clair's per this tweet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351876471892140032


----------



## PAabe (Jan 20, 2021)

I probably do not ski nearly as often as most of y'all but I wanted to chime into the discussion here with some observations from southern Pennsylvania.

In PA Vail has acquired the three longtime Snow Time Inc./Irvin Naylor ski areas in south-central PA of Ski Roundtop, Liberty, and Whitetail, as well as the Jack Frost/Big Boulder operation in the Poconos.  As a kid, we went to Ski Roundtop all the time and it is pretty good for PA skiing all things considered, but I have not been to any of them this year due to the extraordinary increase in the price of their lift tickets and failure to get trails open after the massive snowfall we got right before Christmas.

They have been Vail'ed hard.  There have allegedly been huge crowds, partly due to the Epic crowds.  They have been having huge issues with staffing, and I have been getting lots of ads and emails from Indeed the past few weeks from Vail looking for employees.  Big communication issues.  Their websites are awful.  Vail has quite possibly the *worst* websites in the whole ski industry.  It is impossible to find anything that you are looking for on their websites.  They got rid of all the individual styling on the websites and have the same Vail template on all of them.  The old websites were just fine.  There has been a failure to open lifts and trails as fast as usual.  They got 18" is snow and great cold weather a week or so before Christmas which is more than we got in total all last year, but they were only able to open a few trails Christmas week.  Roundtop is only just recently opening their Upper Gunbarrel/Ramrod expert terrain which seems to be pretty late.  Snow Time since the beginning invested *heavily* in snowmaking at Roundtop/Liberty/Whitetail, as you have to around here, and in the past they pretty much seemed to be all open all the time by January.  Events such as the Cardboard classic at JFBB have been cancelled "due to covid" and people seem to have been given the impression that they are never coming back.

I *really* hope Vail doesn't ruin Roundtop in particular with "improvements."  It has had a pretty good vibe in the past.

IIRC tickets under Snow Time were like $35-$50 but now they are more like $75.  We have gone skiing elsewhere.  Bear Creek, Montage, and Elk have $25-35 tickets and have been way faster at opening up.  Blue Mountain in particularly has had their act together, they had almost everything open right after the big snow, snowmaking running all the time, all lifts running, machines to validate online ticket orders in the parking lot.  They are by many definitions the largest ski area in PA and their tickets are cheaper than the much-smaller JFBB and Roundtop/Liberty/Whitetail, as low as like $39 some days.  Even Montage, who every year people speculate is going to go bankrupt again, was relatively full on a Thursday, had most of their terrain open, and had all of the lifts spinning, even the infamous Long Haul.

We had been considering getting Epic passes this year but decided to wait and see due to covid issues, and I am glad we did.  We will be doing our big-mountain skiing and Plattekill and Gore this year.

I have little sympathy for Vail's staffing issues.  Other areas seem to be doing better.  I had been seriously considering working for Roundtop while on break from college this winter, possibly even into the spring semester since classes are online, but they just are not a competitive employer anymore.  Market rate for labor here in central PA is like $12 minimum.  You can walk into a fast food joint or Walmart or a warehouse and get paid that much.  I get paid about twice what Roundtop would pay working for my local supermarket, it is not a 45 minute drive away, and, most importantly, I do not have to work for Vail.

Thread title says it all.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 20, 2021)

from a terrain opening perspective they've done just fine  at Roundtop given that we haven't had much sustained cold.  It hasn't been overly cold or warm.   They haven't been able to make snow in going on 2 weeks because it hasn't dipped much below 28 degrees for an hour a two at night.  Forecast low is 22 tonight.  if they don't make snow then I'll be pissed. 

I have heard that Liberty and Whitetail have been super slow to open, but they are even further south and both face the east and south. 

Lines have been out of control to the point it seems hard to believe Vail Corp is really saying they are down 16% overall.   I guess those western resorts do pack the people in though... 

I'm stuck with Vail Roundtop is 4 miles from my house. that is unless I win this $1 Billion megamillions and buy back these southcentral PA resorts  :lol:


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Hunter is blowing on Clair's per this tweet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351876471892140032


Nice..I looked at the site today..didn't see it as listed.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 20, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I probably do not ski nearly as often as most of y'all but I wanted to chime into the discussion here with some observations from southern Pennsylvania.
> 
> In PA Vail has acquired the three longtime Snow Time Inc./Irvin Naylor ski areas in south-central PA of Ski Roundtop, Liberty, and Whitetail, as well as the Jack Frost/Big Boulder operation in the Poconos.  As a kid, we went to Ski Roundtop all the time and it is pretty good for PA skiing all things considered, but I have not been to any of them this year due to the extraordinary increase in the price of their lift tickets and failure to get trails open after the massive snowfall we got right before Christmas.
> 
> ...


Usual ever day  discussions are around 75 percent negative, this vail sucks is at 99.5 percent,


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> from a terrain opening perspective they've done just fine  at Roundtop given that we haven't had much sustained cold.  It hasn't been overly cold or warm.   They haven't been able to make snow in going on 2 weeks because it hasn't dipped much below 28 degrees for an hour a two at night.  Forecast low is 22 tonight.  if they don't make snow then I'll be pissed.
> 
> I have heard that Liberty and Whitetail have been super slow to open, but they are even further south and both face the east and south.
> 
> ...



Sorry bud. I have the winning numbers for Friday.  Will be buying Wildcat. 

You can have the powerball though


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry bud. I have the winning numbers for Friday.  Will be buying Wildcat.
> 
> You can have the powerball though


POTD


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry bud. I have the winning numbers for Friday.  Will be buying Wildcat.
> 
> You can have the powerball though


they say the quickest way to become a millionaire is have a billionaire buy a ski resort,lol


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry bud. I have the winning numbers for Friday.  Will be buying Wildcat.
> 
> You can have the powerball though


With that jackpot, you might be able to buyout Vail Resorts completely after this winter is over


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Sorry bud. I have the winning numbers for Friday.  Will be buying Wildcat.
> 
> You can have the powerball though



Ok can you do us a solid and buy the 3 southcentral PA places too?  They are actually cash cows and you have a competent GM in waiting who lives 4 miles away.   Just sayin...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Ok can you do us a solid and buy the 3 southcentral PA places too?  They are actually cash cows and you have a competent GM in waiting who lives 4 miles away.   Just sayin...


I was going to buy those and flip them to Alterra


----------



## Edd (Jan 20, 2021)

Whoever buys Wildcat should buy the Glen House nearby to have close lodging. Seems like a no-brainer in my fantasy-laden mind.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> Whoever buys Wildcat should buy the Glen House nearby to have close lodging. Seems like a no-brainer in my fantasy-laden mind.


The glen house owners I think run the auto road and own the cross country area there as well.


----------



## RichT (Jan 20, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Hunter is blowing on Clair's per this tweet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351876471892140032


I skied Hunter today, best day of the year so far!!!!! They were making snow on Upper Crossover, MainLine, Minya and Clairs all during white out squalls!! NO ice anywhere, made me think of the old Hunter when they would be making snow during a blizzard. 
I think they're trying very hard to get as much snow down as possible, cause when March comes and the big orange thing in the sky gets to heating, the thin cover they have will be gone in 60 seconds! 
Making it to April is going to be a challenge for sure!


----------



## kingslug (Jan 20, 2021)

Awesome news! I need to retire.


----------



## andrec10 (Jan 20, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Gore is making snow on Rumor and Lies..hmmm..and the west side of Hunter is..dead. Score one for NY owned mountain.  Thats a shame.


Claires is almost ready. Skied by the bottom of it today. They are also making Upper Crossover. Still could be making on another trail like Twilight.


----------



## andrec10 (Jan 20, 2021)

RichT said:


> I skied Hunter today, best day of the year so far!!!!! They were making snow on Upper Crossover, MainLine, Minya and Clairs all during white out squalls!! NO ice anywhere, made me think of the old Hunter when they would be making snow during a blizzard.
> I think they're trying very hard to get as much snow down as possible, cause when March comes and the big orange thing in the sky gets to heating, the thin cover they have will be gone in 60 seconds!
> Making it to April is going to be a challenge for sure!


Today was probably the best day of the season so far. They still could have a couple more trails lit up. And your right, making April will be tough with the current base.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 21, 2021)

The North side has always seemed a little strange to me. The glades need tons of snow to open up..and some cleaning out. Its as if they just put it on the map to say they have them. Twilight looks like it will never get any attention. I skied it after the storm, a little tricky towards the bottom. Another trail that just looks like they put it there for no reason. The area has great potential, if they want. They put a 6 pack in and you ride it alone most of the time. People go back there do a few runs and split.


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## RichT (Jan 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The North side has always seemed a little strange to me. The glades need tons of snow to open up..and some cleaning out. Its as if they just put it on the map to say they have them. Twilight looks like it will never get any attention. I skied it after the storm, a little tricky towards the bottom. Another trail that just looks like they put it there for no reason. The area has great potential, if they want. They put a 6 pack in and you ride it alone most of the time. People go back there do a few runs and split.


I said it from the beginning, if they only had the lift go up to just below the 6 pk, you would off been able to keep White Cloud AND you would of been able to get to both sides of the Mtn without having to go down the Belt to get back. Total waste.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 21, 2021)

When winds knocked out the front side 6 I had just came back from the north. And couldn't get back from the triple.  So yes, its not designed very well. But at least its a place to escape crowds.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 21, 2021)

Didn't they initially intend for that area to be "intermediate" but they had at least 1 if not 2 fatalities back there, right?  so if they were thinking it was an intermediate area that is likely why Peaks put a 6 instead of a 4 in.  Also I'm assuming with the parking lot it was meant to take pressure off of the front.


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## FBGM (Jan 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Didn't they initially intend for that area to be "intermediate" but they had at least 1 if not 2 fatalities back there, right?  so if they were thinking it was an intermediate area that is likely why Peaks put a 6 instead of a 4 in.  Also I'm assuming with the parking lot it was meant to take pressure off of the front.


It was designed by that idiot guy from Peaks that thought he knew everything. Made a mess of that entire new side. Vail fired him or he left before they swung the ax cuz he knew it was coming.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jan 21, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The North side has always seemed a little strange to me. The glades need tons of snow to open up..and some cleaning out. Its as if they just put it on the map to say they have them. Twilight looks like it will never get any attention. I skied it after the storm, a little tricky towards the bottom. Another trail that just looks like they put it there for no reason. The area has great potential, if they want. They put a 6 pack in and you ride it alone most of the time. People go back there do a few runs and split.


Once they put a lodge in there it will make more sense..


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## Funky_Catskills (Jan 21, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It was designed by that idiot guy from Peaks that thought he knew everything. Made a mess of that entire new side. Vail fired him or he left before they swung the ax cuz he knew it was coming.


Meanwhile - I love the terrain and appreciate his work..


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## kingslug (Jan 21, 2021)

Any expansion like this is great..screwed up or not. I'm back there a lot as you can make fast laps.  Hopefully they continue with it.


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## Old Duderino (Jan 21, 2021)

Vail NE pass holder here.  Not posting to rant about VR, I'm just glad I could get a pass at all that I could get enough days on to get a good value from on my local hills during a covid winter.  I'm in the DC area so my local hills are the former sno time resorts, mainly Whitetail and Roundtop.  

What I'm wondering about is if this is the year to get Stowe off of my eastern skiing bucket list?  While it would be good to know if current conditions are better/worse/the same as could be expected this time of year I'm wondering if the crowd situation is better/worse/the same as could be expected in a normal non-covid winter?  I'm thinking I could do a drive up on a Saturday to ski Sunday through Tuesday to avoid the worst of the weekend crowds (maybe a day at Smuggs sandwiched between 2 at Stowe?) so if anyone has any feedback on VT covid related travel restrictions that would be helpful.  TIA.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2021)

Old Duderino said:


> Vail NE pass holder here.  Not posting to rant about VR, I'm just glad I could get a pass at all that I could get enough days on to get a good value from on my local hills during a covid winter.  I'm in the DC area so my local hills are the former sno time resorts, mainly Whitetail and Roundtop.
> 
> What I'm wondering about is if this is the year to get Stowe off of my eastern skiing bucket list?  While it would be good to know if current conditions are better/worse/the same as could be expected this time of year I'm wondering if the crowd situation is better/worse/the same as could be expected in a normal non-covid winter?  I'm thinking I could do a drive up on a Saturday to ski Sunday through Tuesday to avoid the worst of the weekend crowds (maybe a day at Smuggs sandwiched between 2 at Stowe?) so if anyone has any feedback on VT covid related travel restrictions that would be helpful.  TIA.



I'd say that's a fine plan.  I'd avoid Smuggs on a weekend though.  It's all double chairs.  In normal times their weekend lines suck except for Madonna 2.  So with Covid, I'd imagine they're pretty bad.  Stowe on Sundays you should be fine.  Start early on Mansfield side and ski Spruce middle of the day then back to Mansfield for the afternoon.   Monday and Tuesday will be fine.  So, I'd do Stowe Sunday, Smuggs Monday then back to Stowe Tuesday. 

Love the handle


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## FBGM (Jan 22, 2021)

Can’t believe I’m doing this but got some free Park Vail City passes and am going to ski this weekend there. Should be a complete junk show with biggest storm of the year coming in tonight and tomorrow. Things you do when chasing women around....


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 22, 2021)

You did it!  you finally got that date with LV!


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## kingslug (Jan 22, 2021)

Go for it..and post pics..or it didn't happen.


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## drjeff (Jan 22, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> You did it!  you finally got that date with LV!



LV seems to have switched allegiance to Alterra this year as her social media on skis pics lately have been all at Deer Valley


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2021)

Conditions at Wildcat Today were really good. A few inches of fresh.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2021)

Edd said:


> Conditions at Wildcat Today were really good. A few inches of fresh.


Making snow anywhere?

In North Conway for the weekend.  Will be at Cat tomorrow and Attitash Sunday


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Making snow anywhere?
> 
> In North Conway for the weekend.  Will be at Cat tomorrow and Attitash Sunday


Nope. Solid crowd for a Friday also.


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## Mainer (Jan 22, 2021)

Definitely wasn’t the normal midweek wildcat crowd today. Lots of new skis and clothes.  Very crowded for a Friday. Fun skiing, support your local ski techs. Can’t wait for this pandemic to end and people are back to their normal places. They were working on bobcat today, hopefully soon. Whats the over under on an April season at the cat this year?


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## thebigo (Jan 22, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Definitely wasn’t the normal midweek wildcat crowd today. Lots of new skis and clothes.  Very crowded for a Friday. Fun skiing, support your local ski techs. Can’t wait for this pandemic to end and people are back to their normal places. They were working on bobcat today, hopefully soon. Whats the over under on an April season at the cat this year?


Late season is the elephant in the room. If they close the cat early with ample coverage, it will dwarf every pre Christmas failure. 

Attitash appeared to be burying wandering today on webcam, not sure about additional terrain off the yankee or the park. Will be there in the morning.


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## FBGM (Jan 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> LV seems to have switched allegiance to Alterra this year as her social media on skis pics lately have been all at Deer Valley


That’s why I had to get her a comp ticket at Park City.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Definitely wasn’t the normal midweek wildcat crowd today. Lots of new skis and clothes.  Very crowded for a Friday. Fun skiing, support your local ski techs. Can’t wait for this pandemic to end and people are back to their normal places. They were working on bobcat today, hopefully soon. Whats the over under on an April season at the cat this year?


April 11th is the last day so I'm told.

I believe the latest Vail is going in the East this year is 4/18 at Stowe.


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## mbedle (Jan 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> April 11th is the last day so I'm told.
> 
> I believe the latest Vail is going in the East this year is 4/18 at Stowe.


That is correct.


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## abc (Jan 23, 2021)

They’re going to find out when all the late season skiers all decamped to Sunday River and not renew their Epic pass. 

That is, if there’s any cat skiers left to even contemplate renewing at all.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2021)

abc said:


> They’re going to find out when all the late season skiers all decamped to Sunday River and not renew their Epic pass.
> 
> That is, if there’s any cat skiers left to even contemplate renewing at all.


Thousands of second home owners in the Valley.  No doubt many people without ties to the area will move on due to the steaming dump Vail dropped on AttiCat, but I don't think the drop in customers will be that significant.

Here today with my son.  Conditions are great, but...

25 minute wait for the quad.  Not running it full speed either and it's not because of wind.

Late start to the Tomcat

Bobcat still broken

Not a single gun running on the mountain despite perfect conditions.  Guessing they are done for the year

But plenty of seats in the lodge to warm up with a tiny chocolate milk and brownie for $7.25

I'd punch Rob Katz in the face if I met him for what he's done to this place.


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## thebigo (Jan 23, 2021)

Attitash functioned as a normal non-vail ski area today. All lifts that should have been running were running, including the abenaki. The surface was in good shape, the usual areas got scraped off as the day progressed. Guns running on wandering when we arrived around 8:30, shut down mid morning and a half dozen crew were setting up on avenger. Upper pt has been blown deep but needs to be pushed out. No guns running when we left mid afternoon. Disappointed to hear no guns at the cat, does appear they have one crew between the two. Wandering is deep, serious whales, that is my eight year old daughter with a friend on one of the whales.


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## abc (Jan 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Thousands of second home owners in the Valley. No doubt many people without ties to the area will move on due to the steaming dump Vail dropped on AttiCat, but I don't think the drop in customers will be that significant.


"Thousands" isn't a lot. 

I don't know the demographic of the valley. But the few times I skied there, it's really not that busy. So even an "insignificant" drop in customers could be... significant?

A lot of the people I ran into while skiing there seemed to have driven from somewhere at least an hour away. At that distance, they could divert themselves to Cannon, Bretton Wood or Sunday River etc...

Oddly enough, I bought my Epic pass this year thinking largely of Wildcat!  Because it wasn't all that busy in previous visits, I thought that would be a safer bet than the mad house of southern VT. But thanks to quarantine rules or whatever other reason (weather? Snowmaking?...), "the mad house" southern VT resorts turned out to be a lot quieter than both the NY and NH mountains! 

While I'm happy to be skiing, I can't say I'm thrilled about the southern VT mountains. They're not exactly my favorites. So, given the state of Wildcat, my major motivation for getting the Epic pass is no longer. Needless to say, I'm not planning to renew my Epic pass. On the other hand, Vail may just offer another "significant" discount, which may potentially make me think again. Unlikely, but not impossible.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2021)

You don't know the demographics of the area and have minimal anecdotal evidence to base your opinion off of.  Got it


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## abc (Jan 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> have minimal anecdotal evidence to base your opinion off of


True. I've only skied the cat less than 10 times, and all only in the last 2-3 years.

But it's really odd that everyone I shared a chair with were "frequent" cat skiers yet didn't have ties to the valley. And many also "frequent" other mountains such as Canon or SR. Hence my speculation many will just move on to the alternatives.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2021)

Been a regular in the area since 2009.  Had a pass there 8 of those years.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 days skiing there over that time.  Cat skiers fall into primarily three camps. Second home owner families, many of which have kids in the Devo or Race programs, local ski club people (there are roughly 20 clubs in the valley) and then local NH and Western Maine folks.  I'd fall into the latter camp, but had intentions on getting a seasonal rental and putting my kids in the Devo program.  I was literally two days away from signing off on a property last March before the world stopped. 

People are extremely passionate about Cat.  It's similar in a way to MRG in that regard. The thought of moving on saddens me.  It just feels like home.  When the natural terrain is in, it's my favorite place to ski in New England.  The quad accesses the best mix of terrain of any lift in the East IMO.  Just an incredible amount of variety over 2k vertical feet with no run out. All with incredible views.

I think most will give this year a pass based upon Covid.  

Attitash? Different story.  Much more a groomer resort type crowd.  Those folks can look towards Cranmore or Bretton Woods.  I expect a steep drop in visits at Attitash.  

I'll be moving onto Cannon next year.  I just can't invest in winter seasonal programs for my kids if they'll only have two trails open again by MLK weekend.  If Vail puts in the effort the place deserves next season, I'll be back in a heartbeat.


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## abc (Jan 23, 2021)

Thanks for the detail explanation.   

I dig the terrain there too. And enjoy the low key vibe.

Every mountain has its core supporters. The Vail deal puts a lot of them, at different mountains, agonizing on how to move forward.

I've been going up to the Whites for whitewater in the spring, and was mixing it up with skiing at the cat. The more I ski there, the more I like it. The long season really helps in my case. If the cat stick with the mid-April closing as a rule going forward, that would put an end to that mixing whitewater with downhill skiing. Well, I suppose I can start hiking the Sherbie...


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## Smellytele (Jan 23, 2021)

I have skied wildcat every year for over 25 years. This year I will not be skiing there after all the reports how VAIL sucks!


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## thebigo (Jan 23, 2021)

abc said:


> True. I've only skied the cat less than 10 times, and all only in the last 2-3 years.
> 
> But it's really odd that everyone I shared a chair with were "frequent" cat skiers yet didn't have ties to the valley. And many also "frequent" other mountains such as Canon or SR. Hence my speculation many will just move on to the alternatives.


I am drunk and old but I have been skiing wildcat for forty years. I was literally raised in the lions den, although not born in the desert. I killed dads battery while we watched mannequin at the old theater with mom, while dad watched platoon.

Vail is the worse thing that has happened to this valley in my life. Short of a natural disaster, I cannot imagine worse.

They need to be put out of business. They do not give a shit about us or our culture. They care about nothing but dollars.


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## drjeff (Jan 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I am drunk and old but I have been skiing wildcat for forty years. I was literally raised in the lions den, although not born in the desert. I killed dads battery while we watched mannequin at the old theater with mom, while dad watched platoon.
> 
> Vail is the worse thing that has happened to this valley in my life. Short of a natural disaster, I cannot imagine worse.
> 
> They need to be put out of business. They do not give a shit about us or our culture. They care about nothing but dollars.


I am so sorry to hear this. 

While I have only skied Wildcat about 10 times over the last 40yrs, I have such fond memories of the mountain, and the Vail experience at my home Mountain of Mount Snow has been (covid issues excluded) close to what Peaks put forth.

And that's me, only buzzed, not drunk, posting Big O! LOL!! 

I sincerely hope that Rob Katz and crew either chooses to run Wildcat and Attitash PROPERLY soon, or sells them off to an owner who will!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I am so sorry to hear this.
> 
> While I have only skied Wildcat about 10 times over the last 40yrs, I have such fond memories of the mountain, and the Vail experience at my home Mountain of Mount Snow has been (covid issues excluded) close to what Peaks put forth.
> 
> ...


I hope Vail fails entirely.  

As a former Intrawest employee at the height of their powers as the largest ski resort operator in North America and then seeing the downfall after the Fortress purchase and going public,  I don't think Ski Resorts work as publicly traded companies.  I fully see the same happening with Vail.  

 If I were Katz, I would cash out the many millions he has in MTN stock right now.  The price being $270 a share today is a great jumping off point. 

FTR, I didn't win Mega Millions last night, so I will not be the next owner of Wildcat.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> April 11th is the last day so I'm told.
> 
> I believe the latest Vail is going in the East this year is 4/18 at Stowe.


Wow pathetic, remember when the Cat used to always try to be open till May?


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## thebigo (Jan 24, 2021)

And today wildcat is closed, attitash is yankee only. Bretton woods and cranmore are both open per snow report.


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## skiur (Jan 24, 2021)

Can't really blame them for the wind.


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## kingslug (Jan 24, 2021)

Wind at Gore is pretty stiff


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## Edd (Jan 24, 2021)

thebigo said:


> And today wildcat is closed, attitash is yankee only. Bretton woods and cranmore are both open per snow report.


None of the chairs on Sunday River’s webcams are spinning, which makes their lift status report inaccurate. They’re the worst with wind, and I enjoy busting their chops about it. I’m mostly posting because I’m impressed with SR‘s webcam clarity.

BW and Cranmore are nearly windproof compared to the others. I’ve often wondered if some lifts are built unnecessarily tall, exposing them to wind more. Can’t say that about Wildcat’s HSQ though. That thing hugs the ground like BW lifts do.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2021)

Not sure I'd even want to be on even a T Bar up top at Cat today.  Wind across the street peaked at 151 mph this morning

Guessing Upper Wildcat and Top Cat are now picked clean of the good snow they had this past week


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## 2Planker (Jan 24, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Wow pathetic, remember when the Cat used to always try to be open till May?


I got married at the top of Wildcat on May 1 '15. The place was still open, so the kindly refunded our resort/lift rental fees


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## njdiver85 (Jan 24, 2021)

Tried to buy a ticket for someone for two weeks out.  Vail wants to charge me $5 more to ship it to me.  There is no option to "not ship" it and simply pick up at window.


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## snoseek (Jan 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> April 11th is the last day so I'm told.
> 
> I believe the latest Vail is going in the East this year is 4/18 at Stowe.


I wish they would just open later and go as deep into the spring as possible. Bring back a lift that serves the top and you could give killington a run for their money


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## drjeff (Jan 24, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Tried to buy a ticket for someone for two weeks out.  Vail wants to charge me $5 more to ship it to me.  There is no option to "not ship" it and simply pick up at window.



If you've seen, or heard about, the lines at the ticket windows of some Vail properties this season, that $5 to ship it to you may literally translate into an extra 30+ minutes on the slopes depending on the day/resort


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## FBGM (Jan 24, 2021)

Somehow skied Vail City today and longest I waited in a line was 5 min.  I saw pics and horror stories from yesterday and today but didn’t find it.

Vail still sucks, don’t get me wrong.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Somehow skied Vail City today and longest I waited in a line was 5 min.  I saw pics and horror stories from yesterday and today but didn’t find it.
> 
> Vail still sucks, don’t get me wrong.


Talked to some friends who skied Park City last weekend.  "It was the worst skiing we've seen this season."


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I wish they would just open later and go as deep into the spring as possible. Bring back a lift that serves the top and you could give killington a run for their money


Wall Street doesn't like that anymore.  Close on April 15th or whatever it is, tally your $$$, and call it good enough is their attitude.    I agree that it sucks.  It would be a great way to encourage people to renew their Epic passes.....


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## FBGM (Jan 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Talked to some friends who skied Park City last weekend.  "It was the worst skiing we've seen this season."


No shit. Well 15” +\- must have went a long way. It was decent.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2021)

FBGM said:


> No shit. Well 15” +\- must have went a long way. It was decent.


Amazing what happens when it snows......


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2021)

And regarding trail maps, looks like someone is trying to start a business selling them.    









						Ski Resort Trail Maps
					

SkiMaps




					skimaps.store


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## machski (Jan 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> None of the chairs on Sunday River’s webcams are spinning, which makes their lift status report inaccurate. They’re the worst with wind, and I enjoy busting their chops about it. I’m mostly posting because I’m impressed with SR‘s webcam clarity.
> 
> BW and Cranmore are nearly windproof compared to the others. I’ve often wondered if some lifts are built unnecessarily tall, exposing them to wind more. Can’t say that about Wildcat’s HSQ though. That thing hugs the ground like BW lifts do.


Not sure when you looked at Cam's/Status page but the App just got an upgrade and it was spot on with what I saw actually on hill.  They did a great job running most lifts until 11osh when the winds suddenly cranked to hellacious and stayed there.


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## LonghornSkier (Jan 24, 2021)

Skied Snowbasin today courtesy of my Epic Pass and it was amazing how much better the customer service, experience, etc was compared to what I get at Vail in NY/New England.

Best of all, they’re loading chairs with four people so longest I waited all day was 7 minutes! On a powder day!


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## abc (Jan 24, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Best of all, they’re loading chairs with four people so longest I waited all day was 7 minutes! On a powder day!


I know which mountain I won't go then. Thanks for the 1st hand report


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## kingslug (Jan 25, 2021)

Was wondering about Snowbasin..and Powder mountain. Ide be there if LCC and BCC where a shitshow.  Had some deep days there.


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## LonghornSkier (Jan 25, 2021)

abc said:


> I know which mountain I won't go then. Thanks for the 1st hand report


You can request to ride alone. Some were doing so and there was no issue.

I’m just saying that it was nice on a busy day to not have to wait in excessive lines.


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## 2planks2coasts (Jan 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Was wondering about Snowbasin..and Powder mountain. Ide be there if LCC and BCC where a shitshow.  Had some deep days there.



PowMow/ Snowbasin over the Cottonwoods/ PC any day.  Unfortunately Snowbasin went Epic,  but it's not managed by MTN.


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## slatham (Jan 25, 2021)

FYI Vail skier visits through Jan 3 down 16.6% YOY. Ticket revenue down 20.9%. Ski School Revenue -52.6%, Dinning -66.2%, retail/rental - 39.2%. Not a surprise. Commentary was visits are as high as they are due to more local skier visits - drive to vs fly to.


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## snoseek (Jan 25, 2021)

Dear wildcat this is your closest competition right now and they are fucking destroying you this year.


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## LonghornSkier (Jan 25, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> PowMow/ Snowbasin over the Cottonwoods/ PC any day.  Unfortunately Snowbasin went Epic,  but it's not managed by MTN.


Eh Snowbasin is limited epic.. two days on the local, seven on the full. The vast majority of passes I saw out there were snowbasin not epic.


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## gittist (Jan 25, 2021)

Ok, I have to ask since I made lodging reservations and used most of my priority days to ski at Wildcat.

For Monday Jan 25th, Wildcat is reporting 3 of 5 lifts open, 91% of the terrain is open, and 44 of 48 trails are open.

Did they get their act together or  ??


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## Mainer (Jan 25, 2021)

It snowed. Wildcat has blown snow on just 3 trails. Their natural terrain would not be open at most other places. Expect the trail count to go down this week. Bobcat is still broken. No snowmaking going on


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Dear wildcat this is your closest competition right now and they are fucking destroying you this year. View attachment 50174


That is a state-owned ski area with a non-profit race club helping pay for some of the snowmaking vs. a publicly traded multinational corporation.  Wow.  Just wow.  Vail is getting killed.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Dear wildcat this is your closest competition right now and they are fucking destroying you this year. View attachment 50174


Are they having any big races this year?


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## snoseek (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Are they having any big races this year?


Don't know about big races but yeah they've been out there for sure. The state has been dropping alot of money on snowmaking all around. I was concerned they might run it lean but it's the opposite. Pass sales up and 89 a bucks a pop for everyone else gets it done I guess. Who knew that you gotta spend money to make money...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Don't know about big races but yeah they've been out there for sure. The state has been dropping alot of money on snowmaking all around. I was concerned they might run it lean but it's the opposite. Pass sales up and 89 a bucks a pop for everyone else gets it done I guess. Who knew that you gotta spend money to make money...


Well, as I commented in the Cannon thread, with that huge increase in pass sales we are indeed seeing more invested into operations it seems.  I am not on the ground, but from everyone I see posting here, folks are pretty happy.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2021)

They got about 20" of natural in the past ten days.  So, yes, that many trails are open.  Some rather thin though.


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## snoseek (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, as I commented in the Cannon thread, with that huge increase in pass sales we are indeed seeing more invested into operations it seems.  I am not on the ground, but from everyone I see posting here, folks are pretty happy.


I just came back to cannon last year after a very long break and was blown away both seasons by how well its run while being the same old cannon


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2021)

well I can assure you that the local places here in PA are off the hook busy.  Like Holiday weekend busy by 10 AM every weekend. Based on some observations at my home hill Roundtop I have come to the following conclusions


Way more people from MD and VA are passing by the 2 closer resorts and coming to Roundtop.  Snow is always better here, and historically lines are shorter. 
People who typically only ski out west are definitely skiing more locally.  This point proven by the family decked out in Helly Hanson from head to toe including backpacks.  Yes they were skiing with backpacks at a 550 ft hill in PA... 
Lots of newbies, which is really good for the sport. However, the bad thing is the rental line has been enormous and once stretched about 400 feet on MLK.  This is attributed to the limited amount of people inside at a time.  However, They've also sold out of rentals, meaning no equipment left, on at least 2 occasions since Christmas. 
It too bad that the lodge and bar/restaurant are limited, because with all of these people here they are definitely loosing out on even more revenue than just being down 66%.
Mid-week is way busier than ever before.  Somedays its hard to find a close spot which has never happened before.
I'm lucky that I can ski every day.  I feel bad for folks who can only do weekends and are standing in long lines.


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## 2planks2coasts (Jan 25, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Eh Snowbasin is limited epic.. two days on the local, seven on the full. The vast majority of passes I saw out there were snowbasin not epic.


That's why it's still a great place to ski and doesn't violate my policy of trying not to give money to Vail!


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## Edd (Jan 25, 2021)

Mainer said:


> It snowed. Wildcat has blown snow on just 3 trails. Their natural terrain would not be open at most other places. Expect the trail count to go down this week. Bobcat is still broken. No snowmaking going on


Trails beyond Bobcat are closed for snowmaking today. Guns are on. Not sure which trails.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> well I can assure you that the local places here in PA are off the hook busy.  Like Holiday weekend busy by 10 AM every weekend. Based on some observations at my home hill Roundtop I have come to the following conclusions
> 
> 
> Way more people from MD and VA are passing by the 2 closer resorts and coming to Roundtop.  Snow is always better here, and historically lines are shorter.
> ...


One has to wonder if the Holding Family agreed to Vail so as to give Vail a test-drive of their ski areas.....


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## thebigo (Jan 25, 2021)

Edd said:


> Trails beyond Bobcat are closed for snowmaking today. Guns are on. Not sure which trails.



Kitten per website.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> One has to wonder if the Holding Family agreed to Vail so as to give Vail a test-drive of their ski areas.....



I'm not following?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not following?


Holding family owns sun valley, they sell to vail, they are selling their oil company, I could see holding family with another investor buying vail and taking them private, and Katz still is the ceo.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not following?


Meaning that the Holdings might sell Snowbasin and Sun Valley to Vail at some point


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Meaning that the Holdings might sell Snowbasin and Sun Valley to Vail at some point


I think vail would rather have deer valley than sun valley/snow basin, but who knows, ironic they owned snow basin at one point (vail).


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## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail would rather have deer valley than sun valley/snow basin, but who knows, ironic they owned snow basin at one point (vail).


Read a book by the founder of boyne resorts, everett kirchner , in the book he talks about the places he passed on, sun valley in 65 for 10 million, co ownership of Jackson hole, tellurid, keystone and copper Mtn, not sure if keystone / copper had the same owners.  Granted in 1965 10 million was a lot but all of sun valley for 10 million oh boy, the inn at sun valley probably grosses 10 million per year, lol


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## 2planks2coasts (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Meaning that the Holdings might sell Snowbasin and Sun Valley to Vail at some point


bite your tongue.  They were in MCP before going Epic.   Hopefully they find the switch to have been ill advised.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> bite your tongue.  They were in MCP going Epic.   Hopefully they find the switch to have been ill advised.


Just at sun valley,and asked a liftie who was scanning tickets if a lot of people their had aan epic pass, he stated it was a huge number, took the shuttle back to the sun valley inn, lots of epic passes around the necks of skiers on that shuttle, so yes sun valley is making money on the epic pass.


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## 2planks2coasts (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Just at sun valley,and asked a liftie who was scanning tickets if a lot of people their had aan epic pass, he stated it was a huge number, took the shuttle back to the sun valley inn, lots of epic passes around the necks of skiers on that shuttle, so yes sun valley is making money on the epic pass.


The presence of crowds seems to indicate that.  Crowds aren't always a good thing though. Ask A-basin.


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## ss20 (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Read a book by the founder of boyne resorts, everett kirchner , in the book he talks about the places he passed on, sun valley in 65 for 10 million, co ownership of Jackson hole, tellurid, keystone and copper Mtn, not sure if keystone / copper had the same owners.  Granted in 1965 10 million was a lot but all of sun valley for 10 million oh boy, the inn at sun valley probably grosses 10 million per year, lol



To be fair, Sun Valley was one of the top 5 resorts in the country in 1965.


----------



## Mum skier (Jan 25, 2021)

gittist said:


> Ok, I have to ask since I made lodging reservations and used most of my priority days to ski at Wildcat.
> 
> For Monday Jan 25th, Wildcat is reporting 3 of 5 lifts open, 91% of the terrain is open, and 44 of 48 trails are open.
> 
> Did they get their act together or  ??



similar sort of question (so not an answer to your question). Kids have finally gone back to school in person so am taking a ”Mum day” tomorrow, Tuesday, to check out Attitash or Wildcat to see if worth bringing the family up. Have never been to either, and from this forum sounds like both are getting a poor deal from Vail.  But wondering which to try. Will only be skiing on trail, steep is okay, don’t even mind ice, but no bumps.  Hate slow lifts. Seems like midweek the slow summit triple is the only option on one side of Attitash?  so even though it larger takes a long time to access that terrain.  And wildcat says 90% open so tending that way.  Driving from MA.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 25, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> similar sort of question (so not an answer to your question). Kids have finally gone back to school in person so am taking a ”Mum day” tomorrow, Tuesday, to check out Attitash or Wildcat to see if worth bringing the family up. Have never been to either, and from this forum sounds like both are getting a poor deal from Vail.  But wondering which to try. Will only be skiing on trail, steep is okay, don’t even mind ice, but no bumps.  Hate slow lifts. Seems like midweek the slow summit triple is the only option on one side of Attitash?  so even though it larger takes a long time to access that terrain.  And wildcat says 90% open so tending that way.  Driving from MA.


If you are buying tickets, like groomers and fast lifts: bretton woods.

If you are looking to use epic pass and like fast lifts, the attitash side is useless midweek. Terrain is good but the triple is brutal. Both bear and wildcat have a fast lift and three groomed ways down. Wildcat terrain is better and the view makes for a better overall experience. 

Loon is an easier drive from ma and offers more terrain. Cannon is also an option but the best terrain is off fixed grips.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 25, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> similar sort of question (so not an answer to your question). Kids have finally gone back to school in person so am taking a ”Mum day” tomorrow, Tuesday, to check out Attitash or Wildcat to see if worth bringing the family up. Have never been to either, and from this forum sounds like both are getting a poor deal from Vail.  But wondering which to try. Will only be skiing on trail, steep is okay, don’t even mind ice, but no bumps.  Hate slow lifts. Seems like midweek the slow summit triple is the only option on one side of Attitash?  so even though it larger takes a long time to access that terrain.  And wildcat says 90% open so tending that way.  Driving from MA.


If you're using your epic pass i suggest Sunapee.

If buying a ticket i suggest anywhere but Attitash or Wildcat. Honestly somewhere like Ragged would be an easy drive and has fast lifts and fast groomers


----------



## snoseek (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think vail would rather have deer valley than sun valley/snow basin, but who knows, ironic they owned snow basin at one point (vail).


I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Vail never owned Snowbasin.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 25, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> similar sort of question (so not an answer to your question). Kids have finally gone back to school in person so am taking a ”Mum day” tomorrow, Tuesday, to check out Attitash or Wildcat to see if worth bringing the family up. Have never been to either, and from this forum sounds like both are getting a poor deal from Vail.  But wondering which to try. Will only be skiing on trail, steep is okay, don’t even mind ice, but no bumps.  Hate slow lifts. Seems like midweek the slow summit triple is the only option on one side of Attitash?  so even though it larger takes a long time to access that terrain.  And wildcat says 90% open so tending that way.  Driving from MA.



Drive to Mount Snow if you can swing it- they're getting 6-8" starting tomorrow AM.  Wildcat/Attitash probably not even a dusting.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 25, 2021)

The Cat skied great today. 
100x better than Atitrash on Friday


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## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Vail never owned Snowbasin.


No, you are right, Pete seibert owned it for a time after he sold his share of vail, mr seibert sold it to the holding family


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

New England ski journal has a article about ski trains on the weekend going up to atitash ski area,  from North Conway nh, kinda cool actuall.


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## jimk (Jan 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Was wondering about Snowbasin..and Powder mountain. Ide be there if LCC and BCC where a shitshow.  Had some deep days there.


I've been hearing from acquaintances that crowds have been off the hook at Snowbasin pretty much all this season, and it was especially tough during a period of low trail counts until the recent dump.  
Maybe longhornskier can give us a fresh take on crowds at Snowbasin?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> bite your tongue.  They were in MCP before going Epic.   Hopefully they find the switch to have been ill advised.




I don’t think Vail is buying anymore resorts for a while....


----------



## LonghornSkier (Jan 25, 2021)

jimk said:


> I've been hearing from acquaintances that crowds have been off the hook at Snowbasin pretty much all this season, and it was especially tough during a period of low trail counts until the recent dump.
> Maybe longhornskier can give us a fresh take on crowds at Snowbasin?


On Sunday 1/24, it was 10-15 minutes on strawberry/needles, 2-3 minutes on John Paul and Wildcat, ski-on Middle Bowl and Porcupine.
Not bad compared to what I’ve experienced at Hunter/Mt Snow/Okemo/Sunapee this season.

Unrelated but skied Alta today and it was 5 minutes on Collins and ski-on elsewhere. Going to work Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday, ski Snowbird Friday, and TBD Saturday/Sunday (probably PC one day to get some value out of my epic pass plus I like 9990 and Jupiter). The WFHCation rolls on!


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## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I don’t think Vail is buying anymore resorts for a while....


Depends, if they come out this COVID 19 in decent shape, some regional players or feeder mtns may be ready to cash it in, I think vail needs to add a feeder hill in ct, Rhode island maybe north of Boston.


----------



## Mum skier (Jan 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> If you're using your epic pass i suggest Sunapee.
> 
> If buying a ticket i suggest anywhere but Attitash or Wildcat. Honestly somewhere like Ragged would be an easy drive and has fast lifts and fast groomers


Yes I have the world famous epic pass! We go to Sunapee on weekends quite a bit, and were so excited last year when Peaks were added to Epic mainly because of the good things I heard about Wildcat. But the short season meant we never got there last year. And if it is a disaster there this year I’d rather find out on my own without dragging the family up. Don’t really want to pay for a ticket somewhere (or not yet anyway), trying to get some value from Epic without the possibility of a trip west this year.  
so will post a middle age Mum opinion of the skiing after tomorrow, thanks to everyone who made suggestions.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Depends, if they come out this COVID 19 in decent shape, some regional players or feeder mtns may be ready to cash it in, I think vail needs to add a feeder hill in ct, Rhode island maybe north of Boston.


They are getting killed by the weather, the pandemic, and bad press from pissed passholders.  They are in survival mode.


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## thebigo (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Depends, if they come out this COVID 19 in decent shape, some regional players or feeder mtns may be ready to cash it in, I think vail needs to add a feeder hill in ct, Rhode island maybe north of Boston.


You are aware that there is one ski area in Rhode Island and one ski area between Boston and the nh border? Neither exceed a few hundred vertical. Pretty sure vail is not drooling over yawgoo valley or Bradford.


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## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> They are getting killed by the weather, the pandemic, and bad press from pissed passholders.  They are in survival mode.


The weather and pandemic not having any effect on boyne, alterra, powder??  The bad press seems to be wildcat and atitash, but lets carry on like it’s happening at every vail resort.


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## Cobbold (Jan 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You are aware that there is one ski area in Rhode Island and one ski area between Boston and the nh border? Neither exceed a few hundred vertical. Pretty sure vail is not drooling over yawgoo valley or Bradford.


Don’t forget about nasoba valley blue hills, another one outside of Worcester, vail has lots of ski resorts in the Midwest with small verticals Boston / New England is one of the biggest ski markets in the country, yawgoo valley fits into their business model very nicely as does ski sundown in ct, my guess vail is done buying big resorts in New England  but will add  two to four feeder mtns.  Time will tell


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## thebigo (Jan 25, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Don’t forget about nasoba valley blue hills, another one outside of Worcester, vail has lots of ski resorts in the Midwest with small verticals Boston / New England is one of the biggest ski markets in the country, yawgoo valley fits into their business model very nicely as does ski sundown in ct, my guess vail is done buying big resorts in New England  but will add  two to four feeder mtns.  Time will tell


My guess is that vail is done buying resorts period, they need to figure out what to do with the property they own before acquiring more. I hope for the sake of all the school kids in the Merrimack valley that they never get anywhere near Bradford. 

However, if they were going to acquire more property, the populated areas in Quebec and Ontario are obvious holes in their portfolio.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> My guess is that vail is done buying resorts period, they need to figure out what to do with the property they own before acquiring more.



This needs to be the smart move.  They bought up 22 resorts that for the most part are completely different animals than what they are used to running.  Way closer to population that really likes to do day trips, and way more regionalized than "destination" resorts.  With some reasonable thought they can save this ship and still be profitable.  It for the most part comes down to operations.  What are they willing to do to operate these resorts as they have operated historically.   and the reason to do this is to keep your customer base happy, so they continue purchasing your pass product.   They don't have a complete monopoly in the northeast like they do in Summit County.  My guess is they really haven't thought about how easy it is for many in the northeast to just go somewhere else, locals aside of course.


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## RichT (Jan 26, 2021)

I can only comment on my home Mtn (Hunter), if Vail let them run it as they have for the past 50+ years. Instead of pushing their stupid ideas on them, we would be in ALOT better shape.


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## ss20 (Jan 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> My guess is that vail is done buying resorts period, they need to figure out what to do with the property they own before acquiring more.



Nope.  With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A.  That's their model.  It was ASC's model.  You stop buying you start dying.


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## LonghornSkier (Jan 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Nope.  With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A.  That's their model.  It was ASC's model.  You stop buying you start dying.


I'd disagree with that... You can also drive topline growth by taking pricing (I'd say vail has an opportunity here in the long run-Epic Passes are quite cheap).


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## ss20 (Jan 26, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> I'd disagree with that... You can also drive topline growth by taking pricing (I'd say vail has an opportunity here in the long run-Epic Passes are quite cheap).



Perhaps....but I doubt it.  Once you "own" the industry you're not going to get much growth.  Look at McDonald's where growth is (for the most part) in the low single-digit percentages.


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## Cobbold (Jan 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> This needs to be the smart move.  They bought up 22 resorts that for the most part are completely different animals than what they are used to running.  Way closer to population that really likes to do day trips, and way more regionalized than "destination" resorts.  With some reasonable thought they can save this ship and still be profitable.  It for the most part comes down to operations.  What are they willing to do to operate these resorts as they have operated historically.   and the reason to do this is to keep your customer base happy, so they continue purchasing your pass product.   They don't have a complete monopoly in the northeast like they do in Summit County.  My guess is they really haven't thought about how easy it is for many in the northeast to just go somewhere else, locals aside of course.


 My guess before vail buys a property they already have a plan for it, it seems vail is developing a three zone system, international destination places like vail, whistler etc, regional destinations like Stowe, Mt snow, etc , regional feeder mtns like Afton  alps, wilmot etc, some crossovers,  is Mt snow now a regional destination and a feeder Mtn for vail?  Is Sunapee a regional destination or strictly a feeder Mtn or both?, same with whitetail, liberty and round top in pa. 
butternut Mtn which is really 3 mtns, butternut, Otis ridge and blandford, which butternut just closed, Otis ridge would appeal to people in Torrington ct area down to Waterbury, blandford is big from Northampton down thru spfd into northern ct, my guess if butternut group wants out vail is interested as well as Berkshire East group, Berkshire East group is involved with the new Bousquet, seems Bousquet has stumbled a bit, Berkshire East crowd not as flawless as I thought.  If I was vail, I would snag butternut group, skisundown, yawgoo valley and nasoba valley, make it hard for southern new Englanders not to have an epic pass, just for  the  convenience if nothing else.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> The weather and pandemic not having any effect on boyne, alterra, powder??  The bad press seems to be wildcat and atitash, but lets carry on like it’s happening at every vail resort.


Park City has issues....









						Why Ski Patrollers Are Picketing at Two Vail Resorts
					

Union members at Stevens Pass and Park City Mountain Resort want better wages and working conditions but say their parent company has dragged its feet in negotiations. If they still can't get to the bargaining table, could a strike shut down the two ski areas?




					www.outsideonline.com


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Nope.  With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A.  That's their model.  It was ASC's model.  You stop buying you start dying.


Conversely

You grow too much and you also start dying.

See ASC, Intrawest, Booth Creek and others


----------



## kingslug (Jan 26, 2021)

Franchises are like this. I owned a franchise many moons ago. I was one of their first owners and for some time became their biggest..but. .They treated me like gold, got me a ton of business. But soon they realized they had to grow by getting more franchisees. This hurt the original batch of us as they abandoned us. And soon lost us. I don't know how this worked out for them. Will be interesting to see what Vail does with the properties they own. Leave as is or develop them more. Heard they are building more condos at Stowe.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Nope.  With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A.  That's their model.  It was ASC's model.  You stop buying you start dying.


wasn't that huge growth and bringing on new debt a huge contributing factor in ASCs demise?   Doesn't seem like a good time for Vail to be buying up properties right now given their financial situation and the unknown of when things will go back to normal


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Franchises are like this. I owned a franchise many moons ago. I was one of their first owners and for some time became their biggest..but. .They treated me like gold, got me a ton of business. But soon they realized they had to grow by getting more franchisees. This hurt the original batch of us as they abandoned us. And soon lost us. I don't know how this worked out for them. Will be interesting to see what Vail does with the properties they own. Leave as is or develop them more. Heard they are building more condos at Stowe.


I'm pretty sure that Vail does not own the real estate part of the resort--just the mountain ops.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm pretty sure that Vail does not own the real estate part of the resort--just the mountain ops.


Condos at Stowe ( spruce peak) are not being financed by vail, it think it’s the original owner aig , but I could be wrong


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Condos at Stowe ( spruce peak) are not being financed by vail, it think it’s the original owner aig , but I could be wrong


That's my understanding.  Vail wanted the real estate but AIG (or whatever it is now) did not want to sell that portion of the resort.


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2021)

Slope side condo not owned by the resort is tricky. Condo owners are at the mercy of the mountain operation. If the mountain owner changes hands and the operation priority changes, the property owners have no say. 

I'm very much appreciate the owner of the house I'm staying in who chose to stay off slope in a nearby village. Sure it's a bit of a drag to have to drive to ski. But it offers a lot more flexibility to have the option to ski at something like 4-5 mountains within 1/2 hr drive. I know the owner have, over the years, had season passes at Okemo, Stratton and Bromley. And now focus more on cross country than downhill.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 26, 2021)

We looked at the slopeside condos at Stowe..very expensive for what is basically a small room. They get 50% of any rental..and charge you for cleaning..ok..but even if you are staying there. 
Found one 6 miles down the road..3x bigger, next to 2 restaurants..and I get to pass the Edelweiss deli on the way. Once this is all over..maybe I can spend some time there. Renting it lately.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> This needs to be the smart move.  They bought up 22 resorts that for the most part are completely different animals than what they are used to running.  Way closer to population that really likes to do day trips, and way more regionalized than "destination" resorts.  With some reasonable thought they can save this ship and still be profitable.  It for the most part comes down to operations.  What are they willing to do to operate these resorts as they have operated historically.   and the reason to do this is to keep your customer base happy, so they continue purchasing your pass product.   They don't have a complete monopoly in the northeast like they do in Summit County.  My guess is they really haven't thought about how easy it is for many in the northeast to just go somewhere else, locals aside of course.


Pretty clear to me that Vail has already crapped the bed regarding pissing customers off.

They will soon learn about many in the NE going elsewhere. While part of my decision to ski in NY only was due to travel restrictions, I was also very displeased with how resorts that are part of megapasses basically screwed single mountain season passholders by throwing them in with megapass skiers. An example in my case is the ridiculous parking reservation systems.  Season passholders at Killington treated no better than IKON holders. That's bullshit. Season passholders at K should have had priority making parking reservations. IKON holders get whatever is leftover. I don't care if there is plenty of parking midweek. The system disrespects the very skiers who commit to supporting a single hill. Those folks should and will go elsewhere if possible. Same applies to Vail.

So I decided to stay in NY this season and guess what? It's been an awesome season so far. So why would I bother to go to VT megapass resorts anymore? Totally their loss.


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Pretty clear to me that Vail has already crapped the bed regarding pissing customers off.
> 
> They will soon learn about many in the NE going elsewhere. While part of my decision to ski in NY only was due to travel restrictions, I was also very displeased with how resorts that are part of megapasses basically screwed single mountain season passholders by throwing them in with megapass skiers. An example in my case is the ridiculous parking reservation systems.  Season passholders at Killington treated no better than IKON holders. That's bullshit. Season passholders at K should have had priority making parking reservations. IKON holders get whatever is leftover. I don't care if there is plenty of parking midweek. The system disrespects the very skiers who commit to supporting a single hill. Those folks should and will go elsewhere if possible. Same applies to Vail.
> 
> So I decided to stay in NY this season and guess what? It's been an awesome season so far. So why would I bother to go to VT megapass resorts anymore? Totally their loss.


This COVID thing making everyone cranky,lol


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Pretty clear to me that Vail has already crapped the bed regarding pissing customers off.
> 
> They will soon learn about many in the NE going elsewhere. While part of my decision to ski in NY only was due to travel restrictions, I was also very displeased with how resorts that are part of megapasses basically screwed single mountain season passholders by throwing them in with megapass skiers. An example in my case is the ridiculous parking reservation systems.  Season passholders at Killington treated no better than IKON holders. That's bullshit. Season passholders at K should have had priority making parking reservations. IKON holders get whatever is leftover. I don't care if there is plenty of parking midweek. The system disrespects the very skiers who commit to supporting a single hill. Those folks should and will go elsewhere if possible. Same applies to Vail.
> 
> So I decided to stay in NY this season and guess what? It's been an awesome season so far. So why would I bother to go to VT megapass resorts anymore? Totally their loss.


That really is unique to Killington and fwiw they arent owned by Altera.


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Jan 26, 2021)

The dislike of Vail goes way back. Many years before Covid. Long before they started buying in the east.  By the time the PCMR acquisition happened, it was well understood that Vail was good for bringing skiers and revenue to a mountain, but awful for both the community and the sport of skiing itself.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 26, 2021)

My dislike goes back to when they moved into Tahoe specifically kirkwood. After seeing how that went down I have a good idea of how that would work back east and so far I was right. We see the full story next winter providing things are somewhat normal


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## JimG. (Jan 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> This COVID thing making everyone cranky,lol


Who is cranky? Just stating facts. You are an outlier and your response was expected. We already know you are a Vail fanboy.


HowieT2 said:


> That really is unique to Killington and fwiw they arent owned by Altera.


I don't care about that. It makes it even worse that K isn't owned by Alterra but allows them to dictate policy like that. Another strike against VT next season!


----------



## machski (Jan 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Who is cranky? Just stating facts. You are an outlier and your response was expected. We already know you are a Vail fanboy.
> 
> I don't care about that. It makes it even worse that K isn't owned by Alterra but allows them to dictate policy like that. Another strike against VT next season!


Alterra didn't dictate anything to K or Powdr, it was up to them.  I say this because at Loon, they put Ikon passholders on a reservation requirement but did not extend thst to their own season passholders.  Sunday River and Sugarloaf, while also owned by Boyne did not.  Big Sky, a big marque on Ikon IS requiring Ikon Pass reservations.  So I highly doubt this was Alterra strong arming Powdr.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Who is cranky? Just stating facts. You are an outlier and your response was expected. We already know you are a Vail fanboy.
> 
> I don't care about that. It makes it even worse that K isn't owned by Alterra but allows them to dictate policy like that. Another strike against VT next season!


K did away with the reservations during the week, except holidays.  Now its only weekends only I think.  At least while most of the terrain is open


----------



## Dickc (Jan 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Depends, if they come out this COVID 19 in decent shape, some regional players or feeder mtns may be ready to cash it in, I think vail needs to add a feeder hill in ct, Rhode island maybe north of Boston.


I know the owners of Ski Bradford in Haverhill, Mass are looking to sell.  They are in their 80's.


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## abc (Jan 26, 2021)

machski said:


> Alterra didn't dictate anything to K or Powdr, it was up to them.  I say this because at Loon, they put Ikon passholders on a reservation requirement but did not extend thst to their own season passholders.  Sunday River and Sugarloaf, while also owned by Boyne did not.  Big Sky, a big marque on Ikon IS requiring Ikon Pass reservations.  So I highly doubt this was Alterra strong arming Powdr.


Sounds more like K bending over backward to please Alterra, in comparison with other IKON resorts.

But that seems only applies to early season. With its largest terrain in the northeast, K probably knows all along it will fair better in its ability to spread out skiers. With the quarantine requirement of VT, K is in a pretty good position to have a somewhat more "normal" season. 

As a comparison between Alterra and Vail, anybody skiing Windham who can compare its lift line situation to Hunter?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 26, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I know the owners of Ski Bradford in Haverhill, Mass are looking to sell.  They are in their 80's.


Bingo I think ski Bradford is perfect for vails model of feeder mtns, near a large urban area with lots of skiers.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 26, 2021)

machski said:


> Alterra didn't dictate anything to K or Powdr, it was up to them.  I say this because at Loon, they put Ikon passholders on a reservation requirement but did not extend thst to their own season passholders.  Sunday River and Sugarloaf, while also owned by Boyne did not.  Big Sky, a big marque on Ikon IS requiring Ikon Pass reservations.  So I highly doubt this was Alterra strong arming Powdr.


Wow! Even worse than I thought.  So K decided to screw their own passholders all on their own?

You guys are putting nails in the VT coffin faster than a nail gun!


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Who is cranky? Just stating facts. You are an outlier and your response was expected. We already know you are a Vail fanboy.
> 
> I don't care about that. It makes it even worse that K isn't owned by Alterra but allows them to dictate policy like that. Another strike against VT next season!


But the alterra owned vt resorts don’t have anything similar to killington.  There are no reservation requirements and the local passes are ikon.  So I don’t see why you would attribute killingtons policies to alterra when alterra itself doesn’t have the policies you have issue with.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Wow! Even worse than I thought.  So K decided to screw their own passholders all on their own?
> 
> You guys are putting nails in the VT coffin faster than a nail gun!


It seems to me you’re issue is with killington in particular and not the other alterra owned by resorts.


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2021)

This is Crotched’s snow report, unchanged for two days, at least. They got 4” this morning, which I only know because I’m here. I’ll never understand how they give zero fucks about this.


CROTCHED MOUNTAIN WEATHER FORECAST​Hi Crotched Fans!
How did the nose feel when it wasn't covered?
LEFT OUT! Remember, properly worn masks are required at all times when loading, riding and unloading lifts as well as inside buildings and any time you _may_ come within 6-feet of others. Please note, we are not accepting cash. Thanks for helping us all _Be Safe, Together._
Make the most of your day and join us on the mountain; all trails are now OPEN! Conditions are great so grab your gear and get here!
_Week ahead: _Snowmaking will continue as temps permit with plans to build depth on Jupiter's, Pluto's, Meteor, Satellite Summit, Milky Way, Big Dipper, CM Park and Magnitude. Our crew has it covered but keep those snow dances going!
Don't forget, ALL lift tickets must be purchased online and pass holders must make a reservation. Thinking about joining us for Midnight Madness? Buy your tickets asap as supplies are limited! _Remember, alcohol not purchased on site is not allowed anywhere on our property and alcohol purchased on site must be consumed in the designated areas. Ski & Ride responsibly._


----------



## thebigo (Jan 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is Crotched’s snow report, unchanged for two days, at least. They got 4” this morning, which I only know because I’m here. I’ll never understand how they give zero fucks about this.
> 
> 
> CROTCHED MOUNTAIN WEATHER FORECAST​Hi Crotched Fans!
> ...



Is solstice skiable/roped? Heading over this afternoon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Pretty clear to me that Vail has already crapped the bed regarding pissing customers off.
> 
> They will soon learn about many in the NE going elsewhere. While part of my decision to ski in NY only was due to travel restrictions, I was also very displeased with how resorts that are part of megapasses basically screwed single mountain season passholders by throwing them in with megapass skiers. An example in my case is the ridiculous parking reservation systems.  Season passholders at Killington treated no better than IKON holders. That's bullshit. Season passholders at K should have had priority making parking reservations. IKON holders get whatever is leftover. I don't care if there is plenty of parking midweek. The system disrespects the very skiers who commit to supporting a single hill. Those folks should and will go elsewhere if possible. Same applies to Vail.
> 
> So I decided to stay in NY this season and guess what? It's been an awesome season so far. So why would I bother to go to VT megapass resorts anymore? Totally their loss.


I hear you brother.  POWDR wants to be a hog in terms of $$$$ and get both IKON and passholder money.  They are pissing a lot of folks off with it.


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Is solstice skiable/roped? Heading over this afternoon.


I’ll check in a bit. I eyeballed Kuiper Belt from the top and it looked unskied and bony. No rope there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

machski said:


> Alterra didn't dictate anything to K or Powdr, it was up to them.  I say this because at Loon, they put Ikon passholders on a reservation requirement but did not extend thst to their own season passholders.  Sunday River and Sugarloaf, while also owned by Boyne did not.  Big Sky, a big marque on Ikon IS requiring Ikon Pass reservations.  So I highly doubt this was Alterra strong arming Powdr.


As they should.  Brighton (another Boyne resort) also implemented reservations for IKON passes.  Why?  Because IKON created TOO MUCH CROWDING and Boyne did not want to lose their passholders.  I have no sympathy for IKON passholders as to this issue--if you want unlimited access then buy a season pass to a single mountain.  Boyne did the right thing.


----------



## abc (Jan 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is Crotched’s snow report, unchanged for two days, at least. They got 4” this morning, which I only know because I’m here. I’ll never understand how they give zero fucks about this.
> 
> 
> CROTCHED MOUNTAIN WEATHER FORECAST​Hi Crotched Fans!
> ...


That's pathetic!

A "ski" resort that doesn't even care about reporting 4" of new snow? That's about as indicative of Vail as a company! Yes or no?

I (vaguely now) remember a time when skiing is about...skiing! (or maybe it was just me?).

But when I look at the web site of Vail, it's a vacation destination "resort" where skiing is only a side show, or an afterthought! Kind of like a beach holiday, where you eat and drink, do some sightseeing and then an hour or two on the beach/slope?

I guess as I'm getting older, I too pay more attention to the comfort and enjoyment AFTER skiing. Still, if I'm going to a "SKI resort", my main focus will be SKIING! Stuff outside of skiing will not eclipse the skiing itself. I do occasionally take ski "_*vacations*_", typically to Europe (and lately to Japan). I nevertheless want to ski a fair amount!


----------



## 1dog (Jan 27, 2021)

skiing all alone is ( apparently) not a viable business. One can make the case 30% of the reason is regulation/legal/environmental overreach. 
Its always been expensive. Huge cap outlays, land used to be cheap in. those areas. . .  but any business investment expects a return - otherwise - no investment. Real estate has been the main driver for the past 40+ years. Thats also been regulated to death. ( yeah, I believe is some regs, but the extent to which they have been placed on development has drawn money to other less regulated vehicles - like tech)

I agree - we go to ski- mainly- but like most on here, I have family that does it because I do- but they need/want other attractions. 

As for not reporting snow that's there - I'm ok with it because I don't like people as much as snow. A bit selfish in that way. Not an Epic holder but wish I was a shareholder of MTN since 2011 or 2015 or last April . . . .


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’ll check in a bit. I eyeballed Kuiper Belt from the top and it looked unskied and bony. No rope there.


Magnitude and Solstice roped off from the top.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

Looks like Vail has taken all the phones off the hook at Wildcat..
I worked there for many years so I have many direct #'s, and NOBODY is picking up on any line - Front Desk, Patrol, Ski School, Pub, Shop all not answering for 3-4 hours w/ No voicemail No nothing.....


Conway paper now has multiple Complaint Editorials from locals who have been w/ Tash/Cat for for 40+ years


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Looks like Vail has taken all the phones off the hook at Wildcat..
> I worked there for many years so I have many direct #'s, and NOBODY is picking up on any line - Front Desk, Patrol, Ski School, Pub, Shop all not answering for 3-4 hours w/ No voicemail No nothing.....
> 
> 
> Conway paper now has multiple Complaint Editorials from locals who have been w/ Tash/Cat for for 40+ years


I think it is called progress.  Or something like that.  How is the stock price?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is called progress.  Or something like that.  How is the stock price?


Stocks gone down a bit recently but it's still higher than before the start of the pandemic


----------



## Mum skier (Jan 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is Crotched’s snow report, unchanged for two days, at least. They got 4” this morning, which I only know because I’m here. I’ll never understand how they give zero fucks about this.
> 
> 
> CROTCHED MOUNTAIN WEATHER FORECAST​Hi Crotched Fans!
> ...


This morning I had to decide between Sunapee and Crotched. Seeing as there was no update on snow fall at Crotched I went to Sunapee even though it’s further and we go there a lot at weekends.  But that website can’t be just Vails fault, at least the other eastern resort list the last 24, 48 and 7 day snowfall, surely it’s not hard to update your site once a day.

sunapee was great conditions.  Busy for a week day but someone told me Wednesday is locals day. They have a lot more terrain open than even a couple of weeks ago. If only the slow north face triple were an express as the best steepest Quietest runs are off that chair.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Stocks gone down a bit recently but it's still higher than before the start of the pandemic


Gotta keep shorting MTN!!


----------



## thebigo (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Looks like Vail has taken all the phones off the hook at Wildcat..
> I worked there for many years so I have many direct #'s, and NOBODY is picking up on any line - Front Desk, Patrol, Ski School, Pub, Shop all not answering for 3-4 hours w/ No voicemail No nothing.....
> 
> 
> Conway paper now has multiple Complaint Editorials from locals who have been w/ Tash/Cat for for 40+ years


I typically try to make idle chatter with the scanners, cashiers, lifties, parking, etc simply because i appreciate the work they are doing. There is a profound defensive reflex among any customer facing staff, triggered by any comment that can be construed as negative. I am not surprised they stopped answering the phones, how many times can a person take shit about something over which they have no control?

There was an article yesterday about a family that waited EIGHT hours to get through to epic customer service before giving up. What is a customer left to do but bitch at the one person they can find?

I am surprised attitash and wildcat have any employees left.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

I wasn't going to bitch.  Only wanted to ask about Bar hours....
10-15 calls over 2-3 hours. No answer, No voicemail. Just rang & rang forever.....

The customer (lack of) service is certainly new for The Cat. 
They used to be excellent, especially the "guest facing" personnel.

BW and Black have definitely profited from Vail's horrendous showing this year


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I typically try to make idle chatter with the scanners, cashiers, lifties, parking, etc simply because i appreciate the work they are doing. There is a profound defensive reflex among any customer facing staff, triggered by any comment that can be construed as negative. I am not surprised they stopped answering the phones, how many times can a person take shit about something over which they have no control?
> 
> There was an article yesterday about a family that waited EIGHT hours to get through to epic customer service before giving up. What is a customer left to do but bitch at the one person they can find?
> 
> I am surprised attitash and wildcat have any employees left.


I see the same thing at Snowbird and Solitude after IKON.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> BW and Black have definitely profited from Vail's horrendous showing this year


How though?  Vail took everyone's money for Epic passes.  Now NEXT season I can see there being a migration.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I wasn't going to bitch.  Only wanted to ask about Bar hours....
> 10-15 calls over 2-3 hours. No answer, No voicemail. Just rang & rang forever.....
> 
> The customer (lack of) service is certainly new for The Cat.
> ...



I can't see Linda, Heather and crew doing this without some directive from above.  Cat pub ladies have always been awesome.  Have treated me like gold for years now.  I feel awful for them having to deal with Vails BS.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How though?  Vail took everyone's money for Epic passes.  Now NEXT season I can see there being a migration.





deadheadskier said:


> I can't see Linda, Heather and crew doing this without some directive from above.  Cat pub ladies have always been awesome.  Have treated me like gold for years now.  I feel awful for them having to deal with Vails BS.


Maybe it was their day off ?
Siesta ?


----------



## Mainer (Jan 27, 2021)

You work for a shitty company you deal with shit. Honestly people are still going to be buying epic. Locals are the only ones that  will suffer. It’s a great deal for the average skier. But somebody that regularly skis one local mountain gets a much poorer , more crowded experience. I hate when people say “It’s a pandemic be happy we’re skiing” or “ there is no foreign employees this year, can’t run all the lifts” You have known all summer this was going to happen. You started hiring in December and pay less then the competition. Pathetic.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Maybe it was their day off ?
> Siesta ?


I doubt it, but maybe.  Typically they alternate days midweek and then both work together Fri-Sun.


----------



## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As they should.  Brighton (another Boyne resort) also implemented reservations for IKON passes.  Why?  Because IKON created TOO MUCH CROWDING and Boyne did not want to lose their passholders.  I have no sympathy for IKON passholders as to this issue--if you want unlimited access then buy a season pass to a single mountain.  Boyne did the right thing.


You crack me up.  Other than Copper and Eldora, Powder resorts are not unlimited on Ikon.


----------



## machski (Jan 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Wow! Even worse than I thought.  So K decided to screw their own passholders all on their own?
> 
> You guys are putting nails in the VT coffin faster than a nail gun!


JimG, what you are missing is the parking reservation system was not Killington's doing on their own.  Powdr instituted this at ALL THEIR RESORTS this season.  This was a Powdr HQ decision to deal with Covid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

machski said:


> You crack me up.  Other than Copper and Eldora, Powder resorts are not unlimited on Ikon.


How so?  Snowbird is unlimited.  There are blackouts for holidays, but other than that, no reservations needed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2021)

machski said:


> JimG, what you are missing is the parking reservation system was not Killington's doing on their own.  Powdr instituted this at ALL THEIR RESORTS this season.  This was a Powdr HQ decision to deal with Covid.


His point, and mine, is that it was implemented after POWDR sold passes and that it potentially restricts season passholders.  That's an issue.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> It seems to me you’re issue is with killington in particular and not the other alterra owned by resorts.


I don't really have any issues. Just not into any of these restrictions. So I'm bagging VT at least this season and so far I'm really happy I did.

But you're half correct...I was ready to cut K some slack but now you have enlightened me to the fact that the parking policy is Killington's.

All of which I blame on the overcrowding that the IKON (and Epic) pass created in the first place. Just to be clear.


----------



## skiur (Jan 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I don't really have any issues. Just not into any of these restrictions. So I'm bagging VT at least this season and so far I'm really happy I did.
> 
> But you're half correct...I was ready to cut K some slack but now you have enlightened me to the fact that the parking policy is Killington's.
> 
> All of which I blame on the overcrowding that the IKON (and Epic) pass created in the first place. Just to be clear.



Then your one less person for me to deal with at K next year!  Btw, K has been going strong with snowmaking, has not been very crowded even on weekends.  I have skied 16 days with many Saturdays and have had no issues getting a parking rez.  And you don't even need them weekdays anymore.  I for one am very happy how K has handled what is a very trying season.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 28, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How so?  Snowbird is unlimited.  There are blackouts for holidays, but other than that, no reservations needed.


Really?  I thought Ikon was limited to 7 days at Alta/snowbird combined.  Maybe I'm mistaken so correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jan 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I don't really have any issues. Just not into any of these restrictions. So I'm bagging VT at least this season and so far I'm really happy I did.
> 
> But you're half correct...I was ready to cut K some slack but now you have enlightened me to the fact that the parking policy is Killington's.
> 
> All of which I blame on the overcrowding that the IKON (and Epic) pass created in the first place. Just to be clear.


bag away, that's your prerogative.  As a sugarbush skier, I can report to you that overcrowding has not been an issue.  Maybe that's because of covid related travel restrictions, I don't know, but it doesnt seem to be a problem so far this season.  I have heard that Hunter and Windham have been busier than usual.


----------



## kingslug (Jan 28, 2021)

Hunter got so nuts I went further north. And pay for the privilege.. It was ok early season. People want to ski..Hunter is close.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Really?  I thought Ikon was limited to 7 days at Alta/snowbird combined.  Maybe I'm mistaken so correct me if I'm wrong.


They are. 5 days combined for base a d 7 for upgraded pass.

 Have no plans to ski Bird since they have parking reservations which is a pain in the ass. Alta is fine.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Really?  I thought Ikon was limited to 7 days at Alta/snowbird combined.  Maybe I'm mistaken so correct me if I'm wrong.


It is limited to 7 combined days at Alta/Snowbird on the full Ikon. Solitude is the only unlimited UT resort on Ikon.



HowieT2 said:


> bag away, that's your prerogative.  As a sugarbush skier, I can report to you that overcrowding has not been an issue.  Maybe that's because of covid related travel restrictions, I don't know, but it doesnt seem to be a problem so far this season.  I have heard that Hunter and Windham have been busier than usual.



Agreed. My condo parking lot is packed every weekend though, so it isn't second-homeowners or long term renters that are staying away. I'd bet there's a lot of people that usually either buy day tickets or Quad packs that are the ones not coming (personally I wouldn't be upset if they never brought the Quad packs back). Not sure how busy any of the lodging properties are on the weekends. Either they're losing people/business, or else it is day-trippers staying away (or a combination).

Will be interesting to see how long the trend of not being too crowded here at SB continues.


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Hunter got so nuts I went further north. And pay for the privilege.. It was ok early season. People want to ski..Hunter is close.


I was at Hunter yesterday. 20+ minutes on the singles line for the 6 pack. I'm not sure Hunter has more customers now, it's just that they are all on the hill since they can't hang out in the lodge all day.

Also seems like the lifties gave up on 6 ft. of spacing. At least 3 times they had four other skiers go up with me as a single. That's BS.  No issues on the North or West side.

BTW, these two boneheads decided to slip and slide their way down Westway, Patrol was sitting at the bottom with binoculars and pointing at them. Looked like they were going to be waiting a long time.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

Anybody know how the buddy tickets work? An old high school friend and his brother are going to be in the valley this weekend. They are skiing bw Saturday and either wildcat or attitash Sunday.

Can I get two buddy tickets on the same day? Do the 'buddies' need to be there when I pick them up? Any way to pickup the tickets without waiting in the massive line? Can I pick them up the day before?


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 28, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Anybody know how the buddy tickets work? An old high school friend and his brother are going to be in the valley this weekend. They are skiing bw Saturday and either wildcat or attitash Sunday.
> 
> Can I get two buddy tickets on the same day? Do the 'buddies' need to be there when I pick them up? Any way to pickup the tickets without waiting in the massive line? Can I pick them up the day before?


I believe you have to be present, but I could be wrong


----------



## Mainer (Jan 28, 2021)

Attitash was nice today. But I can’t believe that aren’t going to run yankee or Abenaki midweek this year. Going between the two peaks always sucked a little, now it really sucks especially pulling a 4 yr old back to bear.  Also when 4 yr old is tired at attitash side, normally Jump on yankee or double/double no big deal. Slow triple,no shuttle, no other options kind of a big deal. So frustrating. As mainly a midweek local skier really should be getting some money back.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> Really?  I thought Ikon was limited to 7 days at Alta/snowbird combined.  Maybe I'm mistaken so correct me if I'm wrong.


It is limited to 7 days for Alta/Bird, but no reservations required.  I was talking "unlimited" in the context of no reservations required.  I think that reservations for IKON should be required to limit crowding.  But Snowbird wants to be a hog in terms of $$$$.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 28, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Attitash was nice today. But I can’t believe that aren’t going to run yankee or Abenaki midweek this year. Going between the two peaks always sucked a little, now it really sucks especially pulling a 4 yr old back to bear.  Also when 4 yr old is tired at attitash side, normally Jump on yankee or double/double no big deal. Slow triple,no shuttle, no other options kind of a big deal. So frustrating. As mainly a midweek local skier really should be getting some money back.


The obsession with getting everything off the triple open while most of the lower mountain remains closed suggests a decision maker that does not understand the northern New England skier. One or two runs off the triple per day are good to mix things up but midweek is often about hard and fast runs over a few hours. Given the choice, I suspect the vast majority of midweek skiers would choose the yankee over the triple.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 28, 2021)

I'm headed to Attitash Saturday, wish me luck, first time there this year.  

I also do not understand why they are focusing on the triple over the Yankee.  The most I have ever ridden the triple on a single day is 4 times I think, its just too long to lap.  Also by not running the double doubles or Kachina, beginners essentially have no terrain except for the learning center slope.  I have a feeling those 3 lifts will not run at all this year, and Vail will replace the double doubles before ever opening them.


----------



## machski (Jan 28, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How so?  Snowbird is unlimited.  There are blackouts for holidays, but other than that, no reservations needed.


Really, it's not limited to 7 days per passholder still?


----------



## machski (Jan 28, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> His point, and mine, is that it was implemented after POWDR sold passes and that it potentially restricts season passholders.  That's an issue.


Same can be said for Vail/Epic.  I get the extra hurdle is a pain, but operators really had no clue what each state would do come winter season.  They had to plan for some types of limits, Powdr chose a parking reservation system which doesn't necessarily restrict one from skiing (on mtn lodging, ski bus, etc).  Vail chose an actual ski reservation system, and that is restrictive for unlimited passes.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 28, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> bag away, that's your prerogative.  As a sugarbush skier, I can report to you that overcrowding has not been an issue.  Maybe that's because of covid related travel restrictions, I don't know, but it doesnt seem to be a problem so far this season.  I have heard that Hunter and Windham have been busier than usual.


SKI3 and Plattekill for me. I've noticed the same about crowds. I should hope crowds aren't an issue with the restrictions.

I'm sure the actual skiing at Sugarbush and K is very good. I'd love to ski at either. Thankfully I can say the same about my season so far in NY. The real and only issue is the travel restrictions and I just don't want to deal with any of that. Just a big pain in the ass. 

And of course I don't blame the ski areas for that.

Hopefully next season a K pass will make sense again.


----------



## mbedle (Jan 29, 2021)

Is the parking reservation at Killington require everyone in the car to reserve, or just the one person driving the car? In other words, does it just limit the number of cars or the actual number of skiers?


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Is the parking reservation at Killington require everyone in the car to reserve, or just the one person driving the car? In other words, does it just limit the number of cars or the actual number of skiers?



Only need 1 reservation per car...


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 29, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I'm headed to Attitash Saturday, wish me luck, first time there this year.
> 
> I also do not understand why they are focusing on the triple over the Yankee.  The most I have ever ridden the triple on a single day is 4 times I think, its just too long to lap.  Also by not running the double doubles or Kachina, beginners essentially have no terrain except for the learning center slope.  I have a feeling those 3 lifts will not run at all this year, and Vail will replace the double doubles before ever opening them.



Nevermind, looks like one of the Doubles is opening Saturday, along with Flying Yankee and Abenaki


----------



## skiur (Jan 29, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Is the parking reservation at Killington require everyone in the car to reserve, or just the one person driving the car? In other words, does it just limit the number of cars or the actual number of skiers?


If you walk or take the bus or have a ski out property you don't even need a reservation.


----------



## abc (Jan 29, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> I was at Hunter yesterday. 20+ minutes on the singles line for the 6 pack. I'm not sure Hunter has more customers now, it's just that they are all on the hill since they can't hang out in the lodge all day.
> 
> Also seems like the lifties gave up on 6 ft. of spacing. At least 3 times they had four other skiers go up with me as a single. That's BS. No issues on the North or West side.


20+ minutes on a weekday??? Gosh!


----------



## thebigo (Jan 29, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Only need 1 reservation per car...



What is the logic? 

Does this approach not promote ride sharing? When capacity planning, how do they know if one person or a dozen show up in a sprinter van?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 29, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is the logic?
> 
> Does this approach not promote ride sharing? When capacity planning, how do they know if one person or a dozen show up in a sprinter van?



What it all seems to boil down to is it's somewhat of a token effort to appease the powers that be in the State of VT that they're doing something to decrease the capacity to certain levels per the guidance the state put out there.

Looks like something on paper at least.


----------



## abc (Jan 29, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is the logic?
> 
> Does this approach not promote ride sharing? When capacity planning, how do they know if one person or a dozen show up in a sprinter van?


Can be looked at in both angles.

People are reluctant to car pool due to Covid concern. So there's an expectation a lot more cars for the same number of customers.

By restricting parking, they can prevent people from getting stuck in endless waits for available parking spot. (kind of the A-basin effect, in their Vail days).

And especially during early season, they can also reduce the parking availability as a way to reduce the number of customers.

What they could have done is to add another field in the reservation to indicate how many people will be in the car. But they probably didn't bother because that's one more thing to break in their reservation software.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 29, 2021)

drjeff said:


> What it all seems to boil down to is it's somewhat of a token effort to appease the powers that be in the State of VT that they're doing something to decrease the capacity to certain levels per the guidance the state put out there.
> 
> Looks like something on paper at least.



Exactly.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is the logic?
> 
> Does this approach not promote ride sharing? When capacity planning, how do they know if one person or a dozen show up in a sprinter van?


I'm sure they estimated some sort of average per car and are using that to calculate their capacity. At an outdoor resort, you can easily argue it doesn't need to be an exact science. Most people are not going to suddenly change their habits and start car-pooling or getting big vans to get around parking restrictions. If for some reason they did, they could simply reduce the amount of available parking reservations if needed. And while it is true there are people that take a bus or have condos, they probably have a pretty good handle on how many potential people that is. Let's face it, the majority of the people are most likely driving. So limiting parking was probably the "easy" option to control capacity. By that I mean they really didn't need to worry about any changes to their own lift ticket/pass system to accommodate reservations. They don't need to worry about activating/deactivating passes based on whether or not someone has a reservation, etc. The parking reservation system is essentially separate so relatively easy to implement.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Is the parking reservation at Killington require everyone in the car to reserve, or just the one person driving the car? In other words, does it just limit the number of cars or the actual number of skiers?


It is one per car.  One problem with it is that people are making reservations in their name, their dog's name, their cousin's name, etc. to maximize their options.  So there are now no spots left.


----------



## abc (Jan 29, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It is one per car.  One problem with it is that people are making reservations in their name, their dog's name, their cousin's name, etc. to maximize their options.  So there are now no spots left.


I guess I'm missing something. Why does anyone need more than one reservation?


----------



## skiur (Jan 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It is one per car.  One problem with it is that people are making reservations in their name, their dog's name, their cousin's name, etc. to maximize their options.  So there are now no spots left.



This is just not true, getting a parking rez at K has not been a problem.  Even on Saturdays.  It's 8:30 Saturday morning right now an I can get a rez at K for today.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 30, 2021)

Some serious production on avenger today:


----------



## Cobbold (Jan 30, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Some serious production on avenger today:
> 
> View attachment 50209View attachment 50210View attachment 50211View attachment 50212


Looks wild, how were the crowds?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2021)

skiur said:


> This is just not true, getting a parking rez at K has not been a problem.  Even on Saturdays.  It's 8:30 Saturday morning right now an I can get a rez at K for today.


Here's the thing--Killington it IS working.  Snowbird it is NOT.  The difference?  Who is calling the shots.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2021)

abc said:


> I guess I'm missing something. Why does anyone need more than one reservation?


Because each person can only have seven made in advance.  The "week of" they don't have any limits.  So folks in November booked every weekend of the season using their name, their dog's name, their cat's name, etc.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 30, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Looks wild, how were the crowds?


I was also at Attitash today and will be there tomorrow as well.  Crowds were manageable.  The only real lines were at Flying Bear which got to be about 15 minutes long (full corral) late morning.  But after noon Flying Bear was averaging more like a 5 minutes.  Conditions were very good, prime carving snow


----------



## ss20 (Jan 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the thing--Killington it IS working.  Snowbird it is NOT.  The difference?  Who is calling the shots.



IDK man.  I understand you're upset about Snowbird and the reservation system....but you seem to think this is an inside job or something?  I just think the fact is Killington can handle a crapload more people than Snowbird in pretty much every aspect.  More lifts, more lodges, more parking, more roads in.  Most of the infrastructure was built/upgraded/designed for the million skier visit years at K.  What's Snowbird get for annual visitation?  Better question...what were they getting for skier visits when they built out the resort and how much has demand increased since then?  You say yourself it's exploded in the 10ish years you've been out there.  

I'm not trying to be snarky....I'd like to hear your side of the story.  And my questions are legitimate- I don't know the answers about visits and when Snowbird was built out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> IDK man.  I understand you're upset about Snowbird and the reservation system....but you seem to think this is an inside job or something?  I just think the fact is Killington can handle a crapload more people than Snowbird in pretty much every aspect.  More lifts, more lodges, more parking, more roads in.  Most of the infrastructure was built/upgraded/designed for the million skier visit years at K.  What's Snowbird get for annual visitation?  Better question...what were they getting for skier visits when they built out the resort and how much has demand increased since then?  You say yourself it's exploded in the 10ish years you've been out there.
> 
> I'm not trying to be snarky....I'd like to hear your side of the story.  And my questions are legitimate- I don't know the answers about visits and when Snowbird was built out.


The point is John Cumming is the problem.  Remember when he was running Killington with his friend Nyberg?  I remember people were pretty angry, like death threats angry.  Well, John stepped back and handed it to Mike Solimano and has let him run things.  In the meantime, John has come to Snowbird and has cut pay, resulting in a loss of a lot of staff, fully embraced IKON, made lots of dumb changes, and has implemented the parking reservation system pissing off passholders even more. Yes, access has always been an issue.  But ever since a certain IKONic pass product emerged it has become much more of an issue.  You must not have seen that right before Christmas I told everyone here how I could find parking any day of the holiday week at Killington but there were no open dates at Snowbird until late March.  That's messed up.  Honestly he needs to move on to another project.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 31, 2021)

Goes to show it's hard to understand the emotion when it's not "your" mountain.

And I agree that is messed up.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the thing--Killington it IS working.  Snowbird it is NOT.  The difference?  Who is calling the shots.


This is exactly why I paid a little extra to stay on the mountain at Snowbird, I didn't want to mess with the parking reservations. How does this have anything to do with "Vail Sucking" though?!


----------



## NYDB (Feb 1, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> This is exactly why I paid a little extra to stay on the mountain at Snowbird, I didn't want to mess with the parking reservations. How does this have anything to do with "Vail Sucking" though?!


It doesn't.  But he is mad because he wants bcc and lcc to stay like they were 15 years ago and blames ikon.  If he were honest about it he would also blame all the people who moved to the SLC area from 2000 on seeking the same thing he is.  The population boom in UT is not a good trend for sleepy powder days.  Too late to the party and mad as hell.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> It doesn't.  But he is mad because he wants bcc and lcc to stay like they were 15 years ago and blames ikon.  If he were honest about it he would also blame all the people who moved to the SLC area from 2000 on seeking the same thing he is.  The population boom in UT is not a good trend for sleepy powder days.  Too late to the party and mad as hell.


Population growth is an issue.  As is IKON.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 1, 2021)

There’s too many damn people now. It’s burning me out. I don’t like being in crowds.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s too many damn people now. It’s burning me out. I don’t like being in crowds.


The downside of Epic and Ikon. 

Are things better at Cat/Attitash?


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Its gotten bad enough to kill any plan for us to move there. CO is more likely some day..From there I can hit UT and WY. Just goes to show how great Utah is..cause they sure arent moving to Cali....


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Its gotten bad enough to kill any plan for us to move there. CO is more likely some day..From there I can hit UT and WY. Just goes to show how great Utah is..cause they sure arent moving to Cali....


Where in CO are you thinking?


----------



## McFatt (Feb 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Some serious production on avenger today:
> 
> View attachment 50209View attachment 50210View attachment 50211View attachment 50212


The whales on Avenger looked like a buried Godzilla yesterday! This weekend finally felt like a normal ski season. The lifts were all mostly open. Much more terrain finally spreading people out. Has a smile on my face all day Sunday once that sun got high enough to warm things up. Crowds were nothing compared to a few weeks ago. More snow coming this week and it's just gonna keep getting better. Almost makes me forget about the shitshow first 6 weeks of the season.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s too many damn people now. It’s burning me out. I don’t like being in crowds.


Go BC.

Crowds are necessary for operating a ski mountain profitably.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Where in CO are you thinking?


It would probably be somewhere around Denver..but now it looks like we are stuck here for several more years.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 1, 2021)

McFatt said:


> The whales on Avenger looked like a buried Godzilla yesterday! This weekend finally felt like a normal ski season. The lifts were all mostly open. Much more terrain finally spreading people out. Has a smile on my face all day Sunday once that sun got high enough to warm things up. Crowds were nothing compared to a few weeks ago. More snow coming this week and it's just gonna keep getting better. Almost makes me forget about the shitshow first 6 weeks of the season.


Vail isn’t the reason it got better. Snow is.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It would probably be somewhere around Denver..but now it looks like we are stuck here for several more years.


You do know about I-70 and its issues, right?   It makes SLC's seem like nothing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Go BC.
> 
> Crowds are necessary for operating a ski mountain profitably.


That's what Vail and others believe.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> You do know about I-70 and its issues, right?   It makes SLC's seem like nothing.


I would try to avoid that mess...


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> You do know about I-70 and its issues, right?   It makes SLC's seem like nothing.


But there're a lot more lodging available at Summit county than up at the end of LCC. So there're more ways around the traffic problem than in SLC


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Ten Ways to Survive the I-70 Drive to Mountain Resorts
					

If you must take Interstate 70, there are ways to avoid most of the traffic.




					www.westword.com


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Ive managed to avoid crowds by skiing Bell, Gore and Platt...while thousands of people go to Hunter and other places..then post how miserable it was...where there's a will there's a way...


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> where there's a will *to look outside the box*, there's a way...


Fix it for you 

Vail still sucks big time. But there're other places to ski besides Vail owned mountains.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

yes..there are..I find them all the time.  
My job for the last 25 years is to fix problems..anything they throw at me. Sometimes I have to sit through 100 emails from everyone..then just do what I originally proposed...
There's a ton of people posting thousands of posts on forums and F book about how terrible everything is..very few post an answer. 
23 days in so far and I haven't waited more than 10 minutes on a line.


----------



## thebigo (Feb 1, 2021)

McFatt said:


> The whales on Avenger looked like a buried Godzilla yesterday! This weekend finally felt like a normal ski season. The lifts were all mostly open. Much more terrain finally spreading people out. Has a smile on my face all day Sunday once that sun got high enough to warm things up. Crowds were nothing compared to a few weeks ago. More snow coming this week and it's just gonna keep getting better. Almost makes me forget about the shitshow first 6 weeks of the season.


The snowmaking effort at crotch and attitash shows no quit. I would guess the total volume of man made is on par with or in excess of Peaks. Question is whether the unmitigated disaster they perpetuated on the local passholders from thanksgiving to MLK weekend was an aberration or SOP. Interested to see how they operate this spring; assuming there is sufficient snow, they could build a significant amount of goodwill by pushing the wildcat closing day.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Go BC.
> 
> Crowds are necessary for operating a ski mountain profitably.


Hmmm......... This is different. I've also put more time into BC skiing then you can probably imagine. How does that work in the Lower Hudson Valley?


----------



## JimG. (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s too many damn people now. It’s burning me out. I don’t like being in crowds.


You and me both. It's gotten to the point I sometimes avoid skiing the day after a storm to avoid crowds.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 1, 2021)

Whales on avenger might be the biggest I have ever seen. But until lifts open midweek at attitash no amount of snowmaking is going to change the locals negative perception of vail


----------



## JimG. (Feb 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> yes..there are..I find them all the time.
> My job for the last 25 years is to fix problems..anything they throw at me. Sometimes I have to sit through 100 emails from everyone..then just do what I originally proposed...
> There's a ton of people posting thousands of posts on forums and F book about how terrible everything is..very few post an answer.
> 23 days in so far and I haven't waited more than 10 minutes on a line.


ORDA has done a masterful job of managing crowds...all without needing reservations. 

And Plattekill has been like skiing heaven...yesterday it was ski on all day for the most part with a deep packed powder base everywhere and thigh deep in the trees. Again, all without reservations.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Hmmm......... This is different. I've also put more time into BC skiing then you can probably imagine. How does that work in the Lower Hudson Valley?


Move away from the Lower Hudson Valley? 

(I have access to a friend's frequently empty house in VT. Or, I just get lucky in the last couple of coastal storms!)


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> ORDA has done a masterful job of managing crowds...all without needing reservations.
> 
> And Plattekill has been like skiing heaven...yesterday it was ski on all day for the most part with a deep packed powder base everywhere and thigh deep in the trees. Again, all without reservations.


I think the problem with Epic and IKON is the same as with the former ASC All East Pass--they sell too many of them and don't limit sales.  Accordingly, everyone feels that they need to get their value and shows up.  

How many stories have we seen about problems with crowding at Vail and IKON resorts?  A lot.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Plus a lot of people have way more time on their hands..or they couldn't show up on a monday and pack places. Some have lost their jobs..but bought the pass before they did..now all they need is some gas to get there and back. Plus working at home you can sneak out for some runs..
Its a different planet these days.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

And I wish i brought my skis..my block is covered..whole city is covered..need a little more pitch though


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 1, 2021)

kingslug said:


> And I wish i brought my skis..my block is covered..whole city is covered..need a little more pitch thoughView attachment 50228View attachment 50229


What city is that?


----------



## FBGM (Feb 1, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What city is that?


Miami


----------



## ScottySkis (Feb 1, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What city is that?


City of NY


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 1, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> City of NY


thanks


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Nyc


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You and me both. It's gotten to the point I sometimes avoid skiing the day after a storm to avoid crowds.


Today I posted on Harvey’s site that I’m now looking forward more to packed powder days than actual powder days. There’s so many people that it isn’t fun for me anymore.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> ORDA has done a masterful job of managing crowds...all without needing reservations.
> 
> And Plattekill has been like skiing heaven...yesterday it was ski on all day for the most part with a deep packed powder base everywhere and thigh deep in the trees. Again, all without reservations.


Careful, don’t tell too many people.

I’m no longer talking much about where I see myself skiing over the next bunch of years.


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Today I posted on Harvey’s site that I’m now looking forward more to packed powder days than actual powder days. There’s so many people that it isn’t fun for me anymore.


I'm not seeing that much powder maniac in the smaller mountains. You can shout with a megaphone on how great Plattekill is, nobody actually change their plans to go there instead! Your open secret is save.  

And even on the "major destination" resorts, the powder chasers are all crowding over the "expert" terrain. Leaving the less steep slopes untouched for an hour or more after first lift. Sometimes, powder can still be found on the side of beginner slopes at lunch time! 

Then, there's the woods. 

So, I'm not in a big hurry to go out in the middle of the storm. The day after is quite often just as good. And sometimes even 2 days after, especially if some terrain were not open during the previous days. 

I'm also happy to ski packed powders, before they got scrape off, that is. And slushy bumps in the spring. 

The only thing I don't care for, is icy slopes with zoos of barely in-control skiers. And for this year, extra long lines. That's the true reality of "crowds" for me.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 1, 2021)

Miss the big mountains this year..i like skiing areas rather than runs...
Once you ski places like st anton..its tough to back..


----------



## JimG. (Feb 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Today I posted on Harvey’s site that I’m now looking forward more to packed powder days than actual powder days. There’s so many people that it isn’t fun for me anymore.


Funny the exact way I felt yesterday at Plattekill. PP next best thing to pow. Especially with lots of round bumps.


----------



## skiur (Feb 1, 2021)

How do you ski pow on beginner slopes?  They aren't steep enough for you to move.  Also mountains groom them cause beginners can't ski pow.  Have to agree with you on spring bumps, close second place to pow.


----------



## chuckstah (Feb 1, 2021)

It's dumping good now in southern NH.  One porch step deep so far. The question is, which sucky Vail resort to hit next   couple days/nights. Thinking few runs at the Crotch after work tomorrow, and almost certainly Sunapee Wednesday. Keep it coming......


----------



## abc (Feb 1, 2021)

skiur said:


> How do you ski pow on beginner slopes?  They aren't steep enough for you to move.  Also mountains groom them cause beginners can't ski pow.  Have to agree with you on spring bumps, close second place to pow.


Just surf them. Don't turn too much too early, point down the fall line to build some speed first before trying to make some easy turns.

Still a lot of mountains don't groom ALL of their beginner trails. They'll groom a few for the true beginners. But leaves the powder till the next day. Believe it or not, beginners can ski powder better than "intermediates"! They just slide and enjoy. While the "intermediates" try to control like they're on groomers.


----------



## LonghornSkier (Feb 1, 2021)

I skied the Bird yesterday and didn’t think it was that bad for a bluebird day after a storm. Pulled in at 8:15 to a spot on the road right by entrance 2 (didn’t have a parking reservation). Only line >6 minutes I waited in was at mineral basin at about 11:15-30.

Just my $0.02. Also, I wasn’t skiing on IKON (I’m an epic guy), I paid the absurd day ticket rate (plus about $40 work of base work after multiple traverses to PTEX point to ski Wilbere chute) so don’t blame me for crowds .


----------



## SnowRock (Feb 2, 2021)

Question.. not to pile on the vail sucks theme but has anyone had luck getting a reservation at a place after it was initially unavailable? Any tips for when/how often you were checking the Epic site? I have to be in Stowe this weekend for something somewhat unexpectedly, the drive will hurt much less if I can get out on Saturday 

Disclaimer..  My wife and I work from home, get fresh direct for groceries and neither of us have seen another person socially since one cousin joined us for thanksgiving.. also one shot in to vaccine.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Feb 2, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Question.. not to pile on the vail sucks theme but has anyone had luck getting a reservation at a place after it was initially unavailable? Any tips for when/how often you were checking the Epic site? I have to be in Stowe this weekend for something somewhat unexpectedly, the drive will hurt much less if I can get out on Saturday
> 
> Disclaimer..  My wife and I work from home, get fresh direct for groceries and neither of us have seen another person socially since one cousin joined us for thanksgiving.. also one shot in to vaccine.



You do not need to explain your quarantine status to us.  That is your personal thing.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 2, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Question.. not to pile on the vail sucks theme but has anyone had luck getting a reservation at a place after it was initially unavailable? Any tips for when/how often you were checking the Epic site? I have to be in Stowe this weekend for something somewhat unexpectedly, the drive will hurt much less if I can get out on Saturday
> 
> Disclaimer..  My wife and I work from home, get fresh direct for groceries and neither of us have seen another person socially since one cousin joined us for thanksgiving.. also one shot in to vaccine.



You know...there's a great opportunity here (and maybe it exists already) for someone to create a website that automatically checks periodically and alerts you via e-mail when spots open up. Back in college we had a student-run website that would do exactly that (except with course registration instead of ski reservation availability). I used it several times to get into classes that were originally full when I tried to register.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 2, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Question.. not to pile on the vail sucks theme but has anyone had luck getting a reservation at a place after it was initially unavailable? Any tips for when/how often you were checking the Epic site? I have to be in Stowe this weekend for something somewhat unexpectedly, the drive will hurt much less if I can get out on Saturday
> 
> Disclaimer..  My wife and I work from home, get fresh direct for groceries and neither of us have seen another person socially since one cousin joined us for thanksgiving.. also one shot in to vaccine.




Honestly, its a bit of a crap shoot, based on folks cancelling once the sold out status has been reached, as it seems like the system updates quite frequently throughout the day


----------



## AdironRider (Feb 2, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm not seeing that much powder maniac in the smaller mountains. You can shout with a megaphone on how great Plattekill is, nobody actually change their plans to go there instead! Your open secret is save.
> 
> And even on the "major destination" resorts, the powder chasers are all crowding over the "expert" terrain. Leaving the less steep slopes untouched for an hour or more after first lift. Sometimes, powder can still be found on the side of beginner slopes at lunch time!
> 
> ...



You clearly don't ski out west much, because no big name resort is skiing "just as good" the day or two after a storm. 

Jackson is tracked by 11am. Including the sidecountry.


----------



## SnowRock (Feb 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly, its a bit of a crap shoot, based on folks cancelling once the sold put status has been reached, as it seems like the system updates quite frequently throughout the day


Yeah.. that is what I have been assuming, that its a bit random. Will just keep checking multiple times a day.


----------



## thebigo (Feb 2, 2021)

FYI - Rocket is down due to ice for anyone thinking of crotched tonight. Surface in great shape.


----------



## Quietman (Feb 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> FYI - Rocket is down due to ice for anyone thinking of crotched tonight. Surface in great shape.


Interesting, the web cam showed it running fine around 10:30. Now I see that Valley is running.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 2, 2021)

Quietman said:


> Interesting, the web cam showed it running fine around 10:30. Now I see that Valley is running.


The stuff falling from the sky was a frozen mist between 10 and 1.


----------



## thebigo (Feb 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The stuff falling from the sky was a frozen mist between 10 and 1.


Said they should be able to run it tonight.


----------



## abc (Feb 2, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> You clearly don't ski out west much, because no big name resort is skiing "just as good" the day or two after a storm.
> 
> Jackson is tracked by 11am. Including the sidecountry.


I clearly ski at Jackson quite a bit. Because I was able to find plenty of hidden (and not very hidden) powder at Jackson when everyone gone to lunch.

Some may argue it's not "as good" as it may have tracks on it. But it's definitely not chopped up, far from trashed, well into the day after. Unless you definition of "good" is first track on virgin snow, you can find powder well, well after the next day!


----------



## ss20 (Feb 2, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> You do not need to explain your quarantine status to us.  That is your personal thing.



AZ has officially adopted "don't ask, don't tell"


----------



## Mainer (Feb 2, 2021)

Jackson hole gets skied out fast. Hobacks might have a little fresh but the rest is moguls the next day. Problem is it Is too popular, with too many good skiers.


----------



## abc (Feb 2, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Problem is it Is too popular, with too many good skiers.


Yes, that's the problem...

You have to go find the powder in places where "good skiers" don't go.


----------



## FBGM (Feb 2, 2021)

And now Vail closes backcountry gate at 9900 at Canhole. Because their gomer clientele keeps dying out that gate. (Dude on Saturday wasn’t, but still was sticking his dick where it shouldn’t be and paid the ultimate price) 

BC gate is on Vail property to access Forest Service terrain. Thanks Vail.


----------



## RISkier (Feb 2, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Question.. not to pile on the vail sucks theme but has anyone had luck getting a reservation at a place after it was initially unavailable? Any tips for when/how often you were checking the Epic site? I have to be in Stowe this weekend for something somewhat unexpectedly, the drive will hurt much less if I can get out on Saturday
> 
> Disclaimer..  My wife and I work from home, get fresh direct for groceries and neither of us have seen another person socially since one cousin joined us for thanksgiving.. also one shot in to vaccine.



I've heard they sometimes open up after there have been cancellations. Friends in Stowe said to check around midnight. Don't know the probability. But if you have to travel there anyway you might as well keep checking.


----------



## abc (Feb 2, 2021)

I have seen reservation open up after they're sold out. 

But I can't tell you what the pattern is, as I've only happened upon it once.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Yes, that's the problem...
> 
> You have to go find the powder in places where "good skiers" don't go.


I lived out west for years, was amazed how fast Jackson got skied compared to my home mountain and other mountains I visited. But good for you to be able to find the pow that we overlooked. Can I get some pointers where to go next time?


----------



## abc (Feb 2, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I lived out west for years, was amazed how fast Jackson got skied compared to my home mountain and other mountains I visited. But good for you to be able to find the pow that we overlooked. Can I get some pointers where to go next time?


Not having a trail map in front of me, I don't remember the name of the many trails. But it's mostly on the right side of the map, which is typically "intermediate land". All the while, the "good skiers" all gone to the left & the top!

That said, the tree on the (looker) left of Sublet chair typically kept pretty good. I was able to find powder there quite easily. Even some of the seemingly "obvious" (i.e. relatively wide open) paths appeared to be somehow overlooked. I remember making my way gingerly down, suspicious of why no one had taken those lines. But there were no hidden dragons waiting to eat me alive. When I gone back up to lap it, it was still relatively undisturbed. Though to be fair, I don't always able to find the same exact lines I took the previous run. I often end up with a slightly different line, albeit equally fluffy.


----------



## skiur (Feb 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Not having a trail map in front of me, I don't remember the name of the many trails. But it's mostly on the right side of the map, which is typically "intermediate land". All the while, the "good skiers" all gone to the left & the top!
> 
> That said, the tree on the (looker) left of Sublet chair typically kept pretty good. I was able to find powder there quite easily. Even some of the seemingly "obvious" (i.e. relatively wide open) paths appeared to be somehow overlooked. I remember making my way gingerly down, suspicious of why no one had taken those lines. But there were no hidden dragons waiting to eat me alive. When I gone back up to lap it, it was still relatively undisturbed. Though to be fair, I don't always able to find the same exact lines I took the previous run. I often end up with a slightly different line, albeit equally fluffy.



I think your talking about bivuac woods (not sure of the spelling). I remember finding untouched pow in there when most of the mountain was tracked out.


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## SnowRock (Feb 3, 2021)

One follow-up to my earlier inquiry about success with booking at a spot after it’s been sold out... anyone have a sense of likelihood of Bolton, Sugarbush or Smuggs becoming sold out for Saturday?

No success yet checking Stowe multiple times a day... and since I’m not traveling west this year don’t mind shelling out for a ticket to one of the others. Preference is Stowe for logistical purposes, but it’s been forever that I’ve ridden Bush or Smuggs and I’ve never been to Bolton


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## Cobbold (Feb 3, 2021)

Buy


SnowRock said:


> One follow-up to my earlier inquiry about success with booking at a spot after it’s been sold out... anyone have a sense of likelihood of Bolton, Sugarbush or Smuggs becoming sold out for Saturday?
> 
> No success yet checking Stowe multiple times a day... and since I’m not traveling west this year don’t mind shelling out for a ticket to one of the others. Preference is Stowe for logistical purposes, but it’s been forever that I’ve ridden Bush or Smuggs and I’ve never been to Bolton


Wo


SnowRock said:


> One follow-up to my earlier inquiry about success with booking at a spot after it’s been sold out... anyone have a sense of likelihood of Bolton, Sugarbush or Smuggs becoming sold out for Saturday?
> 
> No success yet checking Stowe multiple times a day... and since I’m not traveling west this year don’t mind shelling out for a ticket to one of the others. Preference is Stowe for logistical purposes, but it’s been forever that I’ve ridden Bush or Smuggs and I’ve never been to Bolton


wow, amazed Stowe is sold out, it will definitely be sold out Presidents’ Day weekend


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## cdskier (Feb 3, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> One follow-up to my earlier inquiry about success with booking at a spot after it’s been sold out... anyone have a sense of likelihood of Bolton, Sugarbush or Smuggs becoming sold out for Saturday?
> 
> No success yet checking Stowe multiple times a day... and since I’m not traveling west this year don’t mind shelling out for a ticket to one of the others. Preference is Stowe for logistical purposes, but it’s been forever that I’ve ridden Bush or Smuggs and I’ve never been to Bolton



I haven't seen any sold out days for day tickets for Sugarbush yet, but I also have only looked once in a while just out of curiosity.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 4, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Buy
> 
> Wo
> 
> wow, amazed Stowe is sold out, it will definitely be sold out Presidents’ Day weekend


Not necessarily as Sat and Sun of Pres Weekend are blacked out for Epic Local and Epic Northeast


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## drjeff (Feb 4, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Not necessarily as Sat and Sun of Pres Weekend are blacked out for Epic Local and Epic Northeast


Epic's in VT especially will likely be quite busy this weekend. Mount Snow went from Epic's level 2 ("filling up") ticket availability indicator level on Tuesday to level 3 ("almost sold out") on Wednesday for this coming Saturday.

However, as of yesterday, that was the only day, over the 3 week period their weekly reservation availability email that send out had that wasn't in their level 1 ("available"), status.

The new snow in pretty much everyone in the Northeast's backyards this week, what should be a decent weather day on Saturday, and with those with the Epic Northeast Pass being blacked out at some resorts next weekend is likely to put a bunch of cars in the parking lots this weekend (Saturday especially)


----------



## kingslug (Feb 4, 2021)

abc said:


> Not having a trail map in front of me, I don't remember the name of the many trails. But it's mostly on the right side of the map, which is typically "intermediate land". All the while, the "good skiers" all gone to the left & the top!
> 
> That said, the tree on the (looker) left of Sublet chair typically kept pretty good. I was able to find powder there quite easily. Even some of the seemingly "obvious" (i.e. relatively wide open) paths appeared to be somehow overlooked. I remember making my way gingerly down, suspicious of why no one had taken those lines. But there were no hidden dragons waiting to eat me alive. When I gone back up to lap it, it was still relatively undisturbed. Though to be fair, I don't always able to find the same exact lines I took the previous run. I often end up with a slightly different line, albeit equally fluffy.


Apres Vous always has good snow...especially Saratoga Bowl


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## SnowRock (Feb 4, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Epic's in VT especially will likely be quite busy this weekend. Mount Snow went from Epic's level 2 ("filling up") ticket availability indicator level on Tuesday to level 3 ("almost sold out") on Wednesday for this coming Saturday.
> 
> However, as of yesterday, that was the only day, over the 3 week period their weekly reservation availability email that send out had that wasn't in their level 1 ("available"), status.
> 
> The new snow in pretty much everyone in the Northeast's backyards this week, what should be a decent weather day on Saturday, and with those with the Epic Northeast Pass being blacked out at some resorts next weekend is likely to put a bunch of cars in the parking lots this weekend (Saturday especially)


Yup... for a brief window last night Sunday was back open at Stowe but no Saturday.  Think I am going to give Smuggs a shot Saturday instead... been a long long time since I've been on that side of the notch.


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## So Inclined (Feb 4, 2021)

For the sake of an upcoming trip I'm taking to the MWV over the third weekend of February, I'm here asking for intel: has Vail/Wildcat gotten its s*** together properly yet? Or perhaps I should ask; did that last storm finally get Vail/Wildcat's s*** together for it, conditions/lifts and crowds-wise?

I'll be staying near Jackson with a few others and we're planning one group ski day. There's a clear split regarding ski skills, so It's all right if we go different ways once on the mountain. I've skied just about all the areas in the MWV area plenty of times and know the terrain of each well. It's a question of what place is going the best right now (and hopefully going into mid-Feb.) 
I can ski anything pretty well - happy to bash down the blacks and through the trees at Wildcat, will also entertain myself carving groomers and long cruisers.   
Another person I'm going with is pretty decent - can hit blues and blacks, and would be interested in trying out some Bretton Woods-style easy glades, but probably isn't going to go constantly balls to the wall.
The others are novices. They've skied before, but not much, and might last the whole day but might not.   
We've pretty much boiled it down to Bretton Woods or Wildcat. 
Yes, I know, very different places. BW gives more for the beginners, not as much for us bombers, though I'm hoping to get up in Mt Stickney glades for the first time if they're skiing well. BW's also pricier. A lot pricier - I have an Epic Pass and some other discounts to dole out to my crew if we choose Wildcat. Then again, there's like 10 pages of this thread dedicated to what a shambles Wildcat and 'Tash have been.
Decision is mostly down to me...happy to take any up-to-date beta from those who've been at either lately.


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## Smellytele (Feb 4, 2021)

A lot can change in 3 weeks...


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## Edd (Feb 4, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> A lot can change in 3 weeks...


Yeah, tough to say now. Also, can the days be split between the two, if conditions are similar?

I‘m a fan of both places, but BW will have better snow conditions 8 out of 10 times, conservatively. If you’ve got a group of mostly novice skiers,  BW will play well. Nearly all of their glades are currently open, but again, 3 weeks.


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## 2Planker (Feb 4, 2021)

Skied both 4-5 times in Jan.
Easy choice currently. BW is in way better shape trail wise, and has much more to offer in way of amenities right now.
Wildcat is pretty much "bare bones", but the Pub is open upstairs


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## deadheadskier (Feb 4, 2021)

Cat is pretty close to 100% now, but would drop down in a hurry without positive weather.  Still several trails they traditionally blow on that they haven't yet: Middle and Lower Catapult, Cheetah and Alley Cat.  

I'll be there Saturday and will report what I experience


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## 2Planker (Feb 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Cat is pretty close to 100% now, but would drop down in a hurry without positive weather.  Still several trails they traditionally blow on that they haven't yet: Middle and Lower Catapult, Cheetah and Alley Cat.
> 
> I'll be there Saturday and will report what I experience


BW Fri / Black Sat / Cat Sunday


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## So Inclined (Feb 4, 2021)

Edd said:


> Yeah, tough to say now. Also, can the days be split between the two, if conditions are similar?
> 
> I‘m a fan of both places, but BW will have better snow conditions 8 out of 10 times, conservatively. If you’ve got a group of mostly novice skiers,  BW will play well. Nearly all of their glades are currently open, but again, 3 weeks.


Thanks very much for the quick responses, all. Spending some time at both is what _I_ aim to do, but that's just me. Right now the plan's shaping up as BW Friday, some x-country Saturday, and I'll go out for a half-day at Wildcat (more likely) or Attitash on my pass before heading home, depending on how I feel and what conditions are like.


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## Edd (Feb 5, 2021)

At the Cat today. Fridays here have gotten busy. HSQ line almost reaches the beginner lift.

I was discussing the conditions here with a friend and we agree that it’s different this year. More filled in on the sides and nicely groomed. Not the usual gnarly trail edges.


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## thebigo (Feb 5, 2021)

Agreed, same at attitash and crotch. Peaks would get trails open and then go back and resurface as necessary. Vail blows DEEP, lets the whales drain and lays down a good surface. My opinion on vail is evolving, they had a decent january in NH. They are still blowing nightly as conditions allow at a 100% open crotch, Peaks would not be blowing at the crotch. Vail is also still blowing at attitash and doing a park build; spent more time at attitash this year than the last ten years combined, not sure if peaks would still be in expansion mode.

Vail needs to get the early season shit show figured out and they need to keep the cat open weekends until the snow is gone. A singles line on weekends would also be nice.


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## Mainer (Feb 5, 2021)

Cheap season passes and work from home have made midweeks much more crowded. But vail is not getting a pass from me until they open the lifts midweek. Abenaki, yankee, and bobcat need to be open especially with the more crowded midweeks. Attitash would be done with snowmaking by now in years past, but they would be 100% open  on snowmaking trails. Wildcat has barely blown any snow this year. The storm on mlk saved their ass.


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Cheap season passes and work from home have made midweeks much more crowded. But vail is not getting a pass from me until they open the lifts midweek. Abenaki, yankee, and bobcat need to be open especially with the more crowded midweeks. Attitash would be done with snowmaking by now in years past, but they would be 100% open on snowmaking trails. Wildcat has barely blown any snow this year. The storm on mlk saved their ass.


“
still say we should grab the pitchforks and torches and storm vail headquarters


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 5, 2021)

Heard from a groomer friend of mine that Rob Katz was at Roundtop in PA today.   Didn't see anyone "official" looking being escorted around the mountain while I was there on lunch.  

I would've loved to have his ear for a 5 minute lift ride...


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Heard from a groomer friend of mine that Rob Katz was at Roundtop in PA today.   Didn't see anyone "official" looking being escorted around the mountain while I was there on lunch.
> 
> I would've loved to have his ear for a 5 minute lift ride...


What would you discuss with him about roundtop


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What would you discuss with him about roundtop


Just checked the webcam of roundtop, think I see him him wearing the charcoal Gray management jacket, checking his phone it looks like, probably figuring out a way to avoid you in the lift line.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> What would you discuss with him about roundtop



for the most part I'd ask him about the insane lines we've had all year while they're supposed to be limiting the crowd.  ask him why they felt the need to shutter night operations Sunday through wednesday.  And finally tell him that there is a pretty significant ski culture at this little bump in PA and they've pissed off a lot of people and runoff many pay customers


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Just checked the webcam of roundtop, think I see him him wearing the charcoal Gray management jacket, checking his phone it looks like, probably figuring out a way to avoid you in the lift line.


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> for the most part I'd ask him about the insane lines we've had all year while they're supposed to be limiting the crowd.  ask him why they felt the need to shutter night operations Sunday through wednesday.  And finally tell him that there is a pretty significant ski culture at this little bump in PA and they've pissed off a lot of people and runoff many pay customers


why Are people pissed off? Due to the lift lines?


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## Mainer (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> “
> still say we should grab the pitchforks and torches and storm vail headquarters


Definitely, can I borrow your moose hat?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Heard from a groomer friend of mine that Rob Katz was at Roundtop in PA today.   Didn't see anyone "official" looking being escorted around the mountain while I was there on lunch.
> 
> I would've loved to have his ear for a 5 minute lift ride...


He's too busy doing his Podcast.  They just dropped the latest episode on iTunes (but not yet on their page it appears):






						Epic By Nature |
					






					insideepic.com
				




The topic is. "We are Part of the Problem."  Before you get excited, it is about race relations.  An important topic for sure, but no doubt another "feel-good" puff piece.  IMHO his time is better spent on resolving the concerns raised by all of you but that is not what he or his PR team feel I guess.


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## gittist (Feb 5, 2021)

I hope they scream at him and treat him like a customer....


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Definitely, can I borrow your moose hat?


only have a raccoon hat and it’s at the dry cleaners, your on your own


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> why Are people pissed off? Due to the lift lines?


lift lines for sure. Supposedly they set the reservation limit at 3500 which was a number they only exceeded 4 times last year.  However, every weekend has been sold out and holiday lines by 10 AM every weekend.  Its a head scratcher as to where all of these people came from.  Some have come from the other 2 resorts which are historically more crowded on weekends becasue they are closer to DC. 

There are many people who used to ski at Rountop on a $200 night pass and that is gone.  There is a school/club program, but they've reduced the night operations from 7 days a week to Thursday - Saturday.  Those people are super pissed and likely never coming back.  They only want to ski Roundtop, at night and could care less about traveling to ski.  I know for certain they made a lot of money on both the night pass and the night club programs pre-Peaks and Vail.   Instead of getting $0 why not collect something from those types of folks.

People were super pissed that we got 11" of snow and we basically had to strong arm them into opening because they weren't prepared with staff hiring.  Even though the planned opening was a week prior.  They did get open, and the anger certainly did subsided about that topic 2 months removed from it, but it is still unacceptable. Frankly operations have been basically normal as far as snow making and grooming and for that I am thankful.

  I wouldn't be all negative with the guy if I got a hold of him for 7 minutes, but I'd definitely let him know there are improvements and a tons of money to be made in the Mid-Atlantic if they run it correctly.  Roundtop isn't Vail, so you need to look how the place was run historically and  not force a bunch of corporate crap just for the sake of being corporate.


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> lift lines for sure. Supposedly they set the reservation limit at 3500 which was a number they only exceeded 4 times last year.  However, every weekend has been sold out and holiday lines by 10 AM every weekend.  Its a head scratcher as to where all of these people came from.  Some have come from the other 2 resorts which are historically more crowded on weekends becasue they are closer to DC.
> 
> There are many people who used to ski at Rountop on a $200 night pass and that is gone.  There is a school/club program, but they've reduced the night operations from 7 days a week to Thursday - Saturday.  Those people are super pissed and likely never coming back.  They only want to ski Roundtop, at night and could care less about traveling to ski.  I know for certain they made a lot of money on both the night pass and the night club programs pre-Peaks and Vail.   Instead of getting $0 why not collect something from those types of folks.
> 
> ...


Why let people ski for 200 when you can get 500, I hear you, but my guess is they replaced people paying two hundred with people paying 500, plus how do you know roundtop is not making more money under vail,


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 5, 2021)

You're right I don't and maybe they are.   The question is did they replace the people who were paying $200 with different people who are paying $500.  IF they did then I guess they win.  If they didn't then they lose. 

one thing I would tell Katz is that for me its great.  I ski damn near every day and in a normal year I'll travel up north and out west on their pass.


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> You're right I don't and maybe they are.   The question is did they replace the people who were paying $200 with different people who are paying $500.  IF they did then I guess they win.  If they didn't then they lose.
> 
> one thing I would tell Katz is that for me its great.  I ski damn near every day and in a normal year I'll travel up north and out west on their pass.


Send Katz a letter, I sent him a letter once never got a response but it did not have anything to do with vail and maybe his screener tossed it, thinking about a night pass only , not near any vail mtns that have night skiing, but a nite only pass kinda makes sense, 200/250 night only at one Mtn, sure I can see the market for that.  Ran into a roundtop skier on a bus out at beaver creek, last winter, asked him if he had a epic pass, response  was no, had lots of days in at roundtop and at least one day at beaver creek if not two, a pass would have saved him money,lol.  Do roundtop skiers only ski roundtop and not liberty and whitetail? And vice a versa


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## FBGM (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Send Katz a letter, I sent him a letter once never got a response but it did not have anything to do with vail and maybe his screener tossed it, thinking about a night pass only , not near any vail mtns that have night skiing, but a nite only pass kinda makes sense, 200/250 night only at one Mtn, sure I can see the market for that.  Ran into a roundtop skier on a bus out at beaver creek, last winter, asked him if he had a epic pass, response  was no, had lots of days in at roundtop and at least one day at beaver creek if not two, a pass would have saved him money,lol.  Do roundtop skiers only ski roundtop and not liberty and whitetail? And vice a versa


Trying to get a response back from Vail on anything is next to impossible. 

I sent them a job proposal a while back for something that would save them millions. With write ups, prof, documents, etc. After numerous follow ups and a calls and voicemails I finally found someone to talk to (by applying for a job that I didn’t want but I knew they would call). They told me my info and proposal got filed as spam and the recruiter didn’t care - then tried to offer me other jobs) 

Alterra took this info and ran with it. Unfortunately they didn’t want to pay what I wanted and didn’t want the scope I Wanted. 

End result Vail sucks and Patrick Reed is a cheater on the PGA tour.


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## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Send Katz a letter, I sent him a letter once never got a response but it did not have anything to do with vail and maybe his screener tossed it, thinking about a night pass only , not near any vail mtns that have night skiing, but a nite only pass kinda makes sense, 200/250 night only at one Mtn, sure I can see the market for that.  Ran into a roundtop skier on a bus out at beaver creek, last winter, asked him if he had a epic pass, response  was no, had lots of days in at roundtop and at least one day at beaver creek if not two, a pass would have saved him money,lol.  Do roundtop skiers only ski roundtop and not liberty and whitetail? And vice a versa


one additional thought, read on a blog not sure if it is happening now or in the past at whitetail, more skiers showed up then they had rental skis for and they turned them away, not sure why they don’t have a back up plan in place with ski shops in the area to get skis from on the few occasions they are needed, pushing clients away is never good for the business long term, but what do I know, I know Mt snow had a program on Friday nights and maybe Saturday too , the rental shop was open till midnight to pick up rental skis instead of Saturday morning, great way to reduce lines,not sure if Mt snow is doing it this year.


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## Mum skier (Feb 5, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Cheap season passes and work from home have made midweeks much more crowded. But vail is not getting a pass from me until they open the lifts midweek. Abenaki, yankee, and bobcat need to be open especially with the more crowded midweeks. Attitash would be done with snowmaking by now in years past, but they would be 100% open  on snowmaking trails. Wildcat has barely blown any snow this year. The storm on mlk saved their ass.


Does anyone know if they will open these key lifts the Presidents’ Day holiday week at Attitash? And how crazy busy anything will be. We were thinking of Tues-Thursday with a day each at Wildcat, Attitash and SR (pending Covid test).  Hoping Tues- Thurs might not be too crazy even the holiday week (its all relative, with kids in school we are limited to weekends and holidays anyway). The two adults plan to get Covid tests for the day at Maine but always worried results don’t come in in time. Fully understand you need a test even for a day trip, but will we actually be asked for proof I showing up for a day trip.  We plan to have it but if it’s delayed is it worth the trip? Will stay in NH near the other resorts.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> why Are people pissed off? Due to the lift lines?


Pretty sure that there's a sense of unrealistic expectations that they were only going to allow enough people per day to get reservations so that the average liftlines were no more than a minute on any given day.... 

Heck, I'm just happy that we are having about as "normal" a ski season as we could of hoped for back in October/November... As I certainly can recall a few posts predicting widespread COVID related shutdowns for weeks on end. Fortunately that hasn't happened and as the current situation appears likely won't be happening this season. For that I am thankful


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Pretty sure that there's a sense of unrealistic expectations that they were only going to allow enough people per day to get reservations so that the average liftlines were no more than a minute on any given day....
> 
> Heck, I'm just happy that we are having about as "normal" a ski season as we could of hoped for back in October/November... As I certainly can recall a few posts predicting widespread COVID related shutdowns for weeks on end. Fortunately that hasn't happened and as the current situation appears likely won't be happening this season. For that I am thankful


I agree


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 5, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Does anyone know if they will open these key lifts the Presidents’ Day holiday week at Attitash? And how crazy busy anything will be. We were thinking of Tues-Thursday with a day each at Wildcat, Attitash and SR (pending Covid test).  Hoping Tues- Thurs might not be too crazy even the holiday week (its all relative, with kids in school we are limited to weekends and holidays anyway). The two adults plan to get Covid tests for the day at Maine but always worried results don’t come in in time. Fully understand you need a test even for a day trip, but will we actually be asked for proof I showing up for a day trip.  We plan to have it but if it’s delayed is it worth the trip? Will stay in NH near the other resorts.


If you're getting tested in the N Conway area.... Results are taking more than 2 days at just about every place


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## thebigo (Feb 5, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Why let people ski for 200 when you can get 500, I hear you, but my guess is they replaced people paying two hundred with people paying 500, plus how do you know roundtop is not making more money under vail,


By that logic, why charge $475 unlimited in NH when people used to pay Peaks $630?


----------



## thebigo (Feb 5, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Does anyone know if they will open these key lifts the Presidents’ Day holiday week at Attitash? And how crazy busy anything will be. We were thinking of Tues-Thursday with a day each at Wildcat, Attitash and SR (pending Covid test).  Hoping Tues- Thurs might not be too crazy even the holiday week (its all relative, with kids in school we are limited to weekends and holidays anyway). The two adults plan to get Covid tests for the day at Maine but always worried results don’t come in in time. Fully understand you need a test even for a day trip, but will we actually be asked for proof I showing up for a day trip.  We plan to have it but if it’s delayed is it worth the trip? Will stay in NH near the other resorts.


I have always skied the cat on presidents day. It is the one day of the year that I have off, the kids have school and the wife works. The quad is usually ski on in a normal year, I would guess minimal wait this year midweek but who knows.


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## Smellytele (Feb 5, 2021)

2 1/2 people at 200 per 1 at 500...


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)




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## Edd (Feb 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> View attachment 50283


Hard pass on that shitshow.

Edit: Referring to BigO Attitash pic. I can’t rid of drjeff’s quote for some reason.


----------



## Edd (Feb 6, 2021)




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## xlr8r (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> View attachment 50283



Glad I was at Attitash last weekend and not this weekend.  At worst The Flying Bear line was about 1/3 as long last weekend, but mostly less than 5 minutes, other lifts were practically ski on.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2021)

Anyone know when Vail is going to fix and open Bobcat chair at Wildcat?  Because this is what a sold out Wildcat day looks like without that chair.   15+ for the Tomcat chair and 30+ for the quad


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> View attachment 50283


That hour long wait this morning was brutal with a little kid. On the positive note - conditions today are pure bliss. 

Dear Vail - please sell less tickets if you don’t have staff to run more lifts.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## gittist (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> View attachment 50283


Notice that the slopes are just about empty.  Perfect place for a timeshare sales pitch....


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)

Yes, conditions today were excellent. More western than eastern. The line at bear was brutal, abenaki was not bad. If you zoom in where the small park used to be, there was a dude in a vail resorts coat talking with the gm. I have not seen a vail resorts coat this year, only stowe. We can only hope they were talking about how to fix the problem.


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## drjeff (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yes, conditions today were excellent. More western than eastern. The line at bear was brutal, abenaki was not bad. If you zoom in where the small park used to be, there was a dude in a vail resorts coat talking with the gm. I have not seen a vail resorts coat this year, only stowe. We can only hope they were talking about how to fix the problem.



The corporate Vail Resorts coats started showing up at Mount Snow a couple of weeks ago. 

Looks like the GM and multiple higher ups are wearing them now.  Also some of the higher ups were wearing green and white with a mountain print on them face masks as well today, and that is new as of the last few days from what I have seen myself


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## Cobbold (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yes, conditions today were excellent. More western than eastern. The line at bear was brutal, abenaki was not bad. If you zoom in where the small park used to be, there was a dude in a vail resorts coat talking with the gm. I have not seen a vail resorts coat this year, only stowe. We can only hope they were talking about how to fix the problem.


Maybe rob Katz, rumor was he was at roundtop yesterday, was it a charcoal gray jacket, management wears charcoal gray jackets


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## Cobbold (Feb 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The corporate Vail Resorts coats started showing up at Mount Snow a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> Looks like the GM and multiple higher ups are wearing them now.  Also some of the higher ups were wearing green and white with a mountain print on them face masks as well today, and that is new as of the last few days from what I have seen myself


Hear  those are coats they testing for next year or the year after


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Here those are coats they testing for next year or the year after


Imagine if they reallocated their fancy coat and colored block fund to lift ops.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yes, conditions today were excellent. More western than eastern. The line at bear was brutal, abenaki was not bad. If you zoom in where the small park used to be, there was a dude in a vail resorts coat talking with the gm. I have not seen a vail resorts coat this year, only stowe. We can only hope they were talking about how to fix the problem.


They can start by raising the price of the pass to at least $1000 for all access in the East


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## ctdubl07 (Feb 6, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Hear  those are coats they testing for next year or the year after


This is what I also understand. Ironically this being the vendor conversion year, worked in the Mtns favor as they were having supply chain issues meeting the volume neeed for 17+ new staffing events


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> They can start by raising the price of the pass to at least $1000 for all access in the East


I don't know the exact numbers but something along the lines of $750 nh w/ a dozen blackouts, $1k nh unlimited, $1500 unlimited vail across the country sounds about right. Way too many bozos today.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2021)

I really hate making a comment like that because I know the sport is really expensive as is, but it's well documented now after 3-5 years of cheap national passes that the crowding it causes blows.  

Vail can't offer a premium "Experience of a lifetime" product with jelly club of the month pricing. 

Raise the pass prices, lower the day ticket prices; especially mid week I say.


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## NYDB (Feb 6, 2021)

Unlimited multi mountain passes like ikon or epic should be like 2k


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)

Tims was fun today:


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## catskillman (Feb 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know when Vail is going to fix and open Bobcat chair at Wildcat?  Because this is what a sold out Wildcat day looks like without that chair.   15+ for the Tomcat chair and 30+ for the quad
> 
> View attachment 50290View attachment 50290


that is nothing !  you should see Hunter.  This is better than a mid week day

The D and B lift lines reached yesterday while th 6 pack was down.


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## Cobbold (Feb 6, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Unlimited multi mountain passes like ikon or epic should be like 2k


then no one buys the pass, you get a great deal by giving vail your money in September, which they invest in commercial paper for 30 to 60 days, perfect weather weekends under epic/ ikon will be packed, but All areas were crowded today from what I heard.


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## catskillman (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yes, conditions today were excellent. More western than eastern. The line at bear was brutal, abenaki was not bad. If you zoom in where the small park used to be, there was a dude in a vail resorts coat talking with the gm. I have not seen a vail resorts coat this year, only stowe. We can only hope they were talking about how to fix the problem.


the scanners and lift attendants at Hunter are wearing Vail Resorts jackets.  so this logic is BS.

BTW Russ the Pres of Hunter, has not been give a VR jacket, he is wearing a 4+ season jacket - black w orange...


MogulMonsters said:


> That hour long wait this morning was brutal with a little kid. On the positive note - conditions today are pure bliss.
> 
> Dear Vail - please sell less tickets if you don’t have staff to run more lifts.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


noticed today that if you wanted to make a reservation with your epic pass for the next couple of weekends they were sold out, BUT if you went to the Hunter site to buy a day ticket there were plently for sale.  WTF????


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## thebigo (Feb 6, 2021)

catskillman said:


> the scanners and lift attendants at Hunter are wearing Vail Resorts jackets.  so this logic is BS.
> 
> BTW Russ the Pres of Hunter, has not been give a VR jacket, he is wearing a 4+ season jacket - black w orange...
> 
> noticed today that if you wanted to make a reservation with your epic pass for the next couple of weekends they were sold out, BUT if you went to the Hunter site to buy a day ticket there were plently for sale.  WTF????


So then how do you fix hunter?

I can tell you how to fix nh but it is expensive.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 6, 2021)

Everyone has been wearing the HH branded Vail gear in PA all season.  Weird of the NH PROPERTIES are just getting that gear


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> So then how do you fix hunter?
> 
> I can tell you how to fix nh but it is expensive.


Hire staff before ski season?  https://jobs.vailresortscareers.com/attitash/go/Attitash-Jobs/8107100/

All lifts at Attitash aren’t open because there is no staff to run or maintain them. Ask anyone at the mountain....they will tell you the same.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2021)

I


catskillman said:


> that is nothing !  you should see Hunter.  This is better than a mid week day
> 
> The D and B lift lines reached yesterday while th 6 pack was down.


I don't doubt it, but different perspectives here.  Hunter has been known as a busy Mountain for years being just 2.5 hours from NYC. 

Wildcat is one of the most difficult to get to mountains in New England.  It's been home for me since 2012 and I've been a regular visitor since 2007.  I can't ever recall spending more than 15 minutes in line for the quad, and typically under ten for the singles line on the busiest of days.  Tomcat and Bobcat chairs ALWAYS 3 minutes or less  I've waited 30 minutes several times this year for the quad and 15 repeatedly today for the Tomcat. 

Even without the chair capacity restrictions due to Covid, lines would be a nightmare this year due to too many people having a cheap pass 

Ultimately it comes down to yield management.  Let's get to 6 people spending $100 a day vs 10 people spending $60.


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## abc (Feb 6, 2021)

I've written quite a few post against Vail. But the lines in mid-February, that's just expected! Especially when we had a poor early season and then, all of a sudden, snow came! 

The pandemic makes the line longer. So even with "reservation", it's expected to be long! 

Wait till March, maybe we can see what the demand will be.  And we'll get to see what Vail does when it comes to April's "schedule closing date". Will they close with tons of snow on the slopes? If they do, I hope people decamp to other mountains. And then, maybe another law suit against Vail for not operating all the lift on the mountains? (basically, "non-performance" on contracts) 

I knew the game Vail was playing. Advance pass sale to lock in the revenue. That's why the low price. And to be frank, if it's low enough, people don't get quite as upset. My pass didn't cost me much, as I had some credit coming from the previous season. So whatever I got to use it, OR NOT USE IT, it's not that big a deal. Given the way Vail failed in preparing for this season, I'm not likely giving them another dime next season. For those of us who didn't buy a slope side condo, there're other mountains we can go to. 

People in the industry talk about pent up demand next season, that's just wishful thinking. The thing most "pent up" is bad taste in our mouth against Vail. So those of us who could, will leave Vail next season. We'll get to ski next season,, just not at Vail mountains.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Hire staff before ski season?  https://jobs.vailresortscareers.com/attitash/go/Attitash-Jobs/8107100/
> 
> All lifts at Attitash aren’t open because there is no staff to run or maintain them. Ask anyone at the mountain....they will tell you the same.



Pay what it takes to fully staff the lifts.  Lifty labor is such a miniscule cost center for ski resorts.  Even though these are low skill jobs, people don't want to stand outside doing a mundane task for 8 hours a day. 

If Vail was offering $15-20/HR for lifty jobs, they'd be all set.  They probably pay $12 at best


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## ss20 (Feb 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pay what it takes to fully staff the lifts.  Lifty labor is such a miniscule cost center for ski resorts.  Even though these are low skill jobs, people don't want to stand outside doing a mundane task for 8 hours a day.
> 
> If Vail was offering $15-20/HR for lifty jobs, they'd be all set.  They probably pay $12 at best



I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts.  If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts.  Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys.  Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.  

Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions.  Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that.  If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.


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## Edd (Feb 7, 2021)

Eh, a good lifty seems worth $15/hour to me. Particularly on a busy lift that requires some line management and people skills. Also, a lifty that’s on point and paying attention can avoid accidents/lawsuits.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts.  If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts.  Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys.  Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.
> 
> Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions.  Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that.  If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.


Look at it on a per lifty cost.  $15/hr = $120 a day.  That's $4 more than the cost of a day ticket to Mt Snow.   So basically one day visitor who buys a ticket and a hot cocoa covers the cost of one lifty.  Mt Snow probably sells a couple thousand day tickets a weekend ski day. 

And from a Macro Economics perspective, look at the rents in ski towns.  People can't afford to live in most ski towns on less than $15/hr.   So, you either rely on cheap foreign labor, cramped in employee housing or you offer wages that can support someone living there.  The lack of foreign labor this year exposes the problem of ski areas paying too little to properly staff themselves.


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## snoseek (Feb 7, 2021)

The cheap pass prices are artificially low on the backs of underpaid staff. Pay more or help out with housing and the problem goes away. Cost of doing business.

Squaw was advertising for lifties on the local radio a few years back at 20 per hour after all the foreign labor left on a good snow year


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## machski (Feb 7, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I don't know the exact numbers but something along the lines of $750 nh w/ a dozen blackouts, $1k nh unlimited, $1500 unlimited vail across the country sounds about right. Way too many bozos today.


Once you get to a 4 figure pass price, the occasional skier will not buy in.  At that point, the Epic and Ikon models implode as they are built with the enticement to the occasional skier to buy one and travel for their one or two ski trips a year.  If pass prices get raised substantially, both will have to create a new model in addition that will speak to the volumes of those skiers/riders.  Most that are buying these passes are not like those of us on this board that will buy passes at those price levels.


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## RichT (Feb 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts.  If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts.  Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys.  Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.
> 
> Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions.  Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that.  If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.


 I know a couple of the employees at Hunter, that DON'T ski. They work 6 days a week and would rather not be there on their day off. Given a choice of more money and no pass they'd take to cash. The job fair they had last week netted Vail 4(?) new hires. Pay them more, gve the passes to the patrollers.


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## njdiver85 (Feb 7, 2021)

When Vail looks back at this season, they will say . . . the Northeast had insanely good snow conditions in January and February.  I haven't seen a shred of ice at Mount Snow in 3 weeks - I've never been able to say that in my 9 years here!  Combine amazing conditions with reduced lift capacity due to Covid, pent up demand to ski due to crappy start to season, and inability of families to fly west and "spread out" to other resorts and you get . . . massive lines in the NE.  This will not be a call to change the pass price structure all that much.  They will have their marketing department working overtime to create the stoke and get people excited for next season, and I really don't think they will loose that many to Ikon.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> When Vail looks back at this season, they will say . . . the Northeast had insanely good snow conditions in January and February.  I haven't seen a shred of ice at Mount Snow in 3 weeks - I've never been able to say that in my 9 years here!  Combine amazing conditions with reduced lift capacity due to Covid, pent up demand to ski due to crappy start to season, and inability of families to fly west and "spread out" to other resorts and you get . . . massive lines in the NE.  This will not be a call to change the pass price structure all that much.  They will have their marketing department working overtime to create the stoke and get people excited for next season, and I really don't think they will loose that many to Ikon.


I'll be interested to see what their pass sales are like next season.  Maybe the VT market retains much of their business, but I know many people in NH who are moving on to Cannon or elsewhere with how bad they botched the product in NH this season.  Of the four NH Epic areas, only Crotched has performed any where near as good under Vail as they did under Peak. Pandemic or not. 

To get those skiers back, Vail will need to do a helluva lot better job making snow in NH and restore the season length at Wildcat.  I don't see that happening


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## catskillman (Feb 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Look at it on a per lifty cost.  $15/hr = $120 a day.  That's $4 more than the cost of a day ticket to Mt Snow.   So basically one day visitor who buys a ticket and a hot cocoa covers the cost of one lifty.  Mt Snow probably sells a couple thousand day tickets a weekend ski day.
> 
> And from a Macro Economics perspective, look at the rents in ski towns.  People can't afford to live in most ski towns on less than $15/hr.   So, you either rely on cheap foreign labor, cramped in employee housing or you offer wages that can support someone living there.  The lack of foreign labor this year exposes the problem of ski areas paying too little to properly staff themselves.


There is a lot more cost involved when employing someone - the employer has to pay federal (FICA / SSI)  and state taxes (which vary by state).  There is also training costs, and Vail does a lot of that, break's/ lunch, possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.  

The company has to pay for workman's comp, drug testing in some instances and I am sure there are other things I am missing.  

BUT - customer satisfaction is priceless.


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## NYDB (Feb 7, 2021)

Do the vail lifties have to choose their music from a corporate approved playlist?  Or is music discouraged?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2021)

I was oversimplifying things and I'm aware there are more costs than just the wage.  The fact remains that if the only way to staff these places is foreign help on short money or being well understaffed, then it is not a viable business model and it needs to change.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 7, 2021)

There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.


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## abc (Feb 7, 2021)

catskillman said:


> There is a lot more cost involved when employing someone - the employer has to pay federal (FICA / SSI) and state taxes (which vary by state). There is also training costs, and Vail does a lot of that, break's/ lunch, possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.
> 
> The company has to pay for workman's comp, drug testing in some instances and I am sure there are other things I am missing.


Almost all of those cost are per employee, not per hour. 

So, with all those overhead PER EMPLOYEE, it makes a whole lot more sense to pay a dollar or two extra per hour to keep them working as many hours! 

Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.


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## abc (Feb 7, 2021)

Not to get too political. The pay for service industry workers are artificially low, largely due to the various visa scheme. Basically, the pays are too low for the local labor force to MAKE A LIVING. 

So the resorts/hotels/restaurants go to these foreign worker agencies, who exist to exploit the visa loophole to bring in workers from 3rd world countries who are willing to live in cramp quarters and make a fraction of local "livable wage". The kids they bring in didn't mind doing that for a season or two, as an experience. But at the expense of domestic labor force who could have use a reasonably paid job. 

Those foreign employee agencies will lobby to keep those visa going because they stands to profit from those foreign kids. They will pretend the foreign workers are "needed". But reality, the only "need" is higher wages for the hospitality industry. Yes, it will drive up prices of hotels and lift tickets if push comes to shove. So as customers, we are partly to blame. We want absolute rock bottom prices. And we get Walmart. Once Walmart is in town, there goes option of NOT shopping there because competitors got driven out of the business (in ski industry, they sell to Vail  )


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## jimk (Feb 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.


Steamboat 6 Feb 2021:


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## abc (Feb 7, 2021)

Wow!

I'm sticking with cross country skiing then.


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## LonghornSkier (Feb 7, 2021)

Skiing JF/BB for the first time ever today. Full parking lot, no lift lines, and good snow.
Good job Vail!


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## crystalmountainskier (Feb 7, 2021)

catskillman said:


> possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.


Or FTers!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.


Agreed.


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## Jersey Skier (Feb 7, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Skiing JF/BB for the first time ever today. Full parking lot, no lift lines, and good snow.
> Good job Vail!


Is JFBB worth skiing?  It's about 1:50 drive vs. 2:30 for Hunter or Belleayre for me.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2021)

Pictures from Vail:


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## LonghornSkier (Feb 7, 2021)

From a simple quality of terrain/drive time perspective, probably not.

But I have fun exploring new places and it scratched that itch. JF has a couple trails with fairly steep pitches too so those were fun.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Pictures from Vail:


Is it that hard / expensive to set up additional stanchions so the line doesn't stretch hundreds of yards?  

It wouldn't make the line move faster, but would help keep the line more orderly.   Same thing happened for Tomcat chair this weekend at Cat resulting in many people trying to cut the line


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## njdiver85 (Feb 7, 2021)

No lines to speak of at Mount Snow today (Sunday).  My longest wait for a chair was about 5 minutes!  Bluebird lift was longer, but you always had the option to take the Grand Summit Express.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 7, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> Is JFBB worth skiing?  It's about 1:50 drive vs. 2:30 for Hunter or Belleayre for me.


It ok for beginners but it definitely not comparable to any hill in my cats


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 7, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> Is JFBB worth skiing?  It's about 1:50 drive vs. 2:30 for Hunter or Belleayre for me.


I am also1:50 from JF, but 2:40 from Hunter.
JF is pretty small and has slow lifts for short runs and the lifts get some lines. It does have some of the best glades in NEPA and blows snow into them. And the East mountain has a couple steep headwalls and a beautiful view. But it can't compare to Hunter.

For the 3 1 day trips I have taken this year I have done Frost 2x and Hunter 1x - as Hunter is far fprna 1 day r/t.
Hunter works real nice for a weekend trip - drive up Sat AM and ski 10-4, spend the night at an affordable motel by closest Thruway exit, ski all day Sun and drive home. Just got back from one of those trips.


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## jaytrem (Feb 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.



I know I said this before, but if you want to avoid long lines, you must follow the "Rule of Mom".  Basically, don't ski any place that my mom has heard of.  I should set up a toll free number where people can call and ask her if she's ever heard of mountain X.


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## skiberg (Feb 7, 2021)

As much as I complained about Vail’s complete abandonment of Wildcat, this may have been a blessing in disguise. The mountain is skiing great. Real Packed powder. Hardly any ice. All because of their refusal to make snow. No snowmaking ice. Snow does not get pushed off trails. We got lucky with the weather, no warm ups etc, but the mountain is skiing great. Skis like a western hill, moguls everywhere.


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## kingslug (Feb 7, 2021)

Winter has arrived...big time


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## catskillman (Feb 7, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Do the vail lifties have to choose their music from a corporate approved playlist?  Or is music discouraged?


no music this season in Hunter........


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## catskillman (Feb 7, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> Is JFBB worth skiing?  It's about 1:50 drive vs. 2:30 for Hunter or Belleayre for me.


without the crazy lines at hunter you will get more skiing in, not the challenging stuff, but it should be more relaxing this season


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## thebigo (Feb 8, 2021)

skiberg said:


> As much as I complained about Vail’s complete abandonment of Wildcat, this may have been a blessing in disguise. The mountain is skiing great. Real Packed powder. Hardly any ice. All because of their refusal to make snow. No snowmaking ice. Snow does not get pushed off trails. We got lucky with the weather, no warm ups etc, but the mountain is skiing great. Skis like a western hill, moguls everywhere.


Guns going top to bottom yesterday on moat and grandstand, they clearly made a choice between the two mountains. Got lucky this year with one of the better stretches of weather i can remember.

Was told yesterday that the club has been lobbying the mountain to run Kachina. Club even went so far as offer volunteer labor and there was talk of defraying costs. Mountain refused on account of policy. Kids are either waiting in the massive bear line or hiking to the abenaki each run.

Kachina is not as egregious as no yankee during the week but would lessen the bear line and provide an alternate to hiking if bear goes down as it did the previous weekend.


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## thebigo (Feb 8, 2021)

Edd said:


> Eh, a good lifty seems worth $15/hour to me. Particularly on a busy lift that requires some line management and people skills. Also, a lifty that’s on point and paying attention can avoid accidents/lawsuits.


I agree, if you cannot afford to pay somebody, whose job is to keep people safe, $15/hr than there is something wrong with your business model. I was told by one of the seasonal coaches that they start at $8/hr. Could not believe it but he had no reason to lie to me. Any parents out there reading this, make sure you tip your coaches well.


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## McFatt (Feb 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know when Vail is going to fix and open Bobcat chair at Wildcat?  Because this is what a sold out Wildcat day looks like without that chair.   15+ for the Tomcat chair and 30+ for the quad
> 
> View attachment 50290View attachment 50290


Drove up to Wildcat around 11 on Saturday. People were parked on Rt 16. Saw how long the lift line was and turned right around. Heading down to Bartlett and did much better at the Tash after 1. Sunday was incredible at the Tash, no lines, new snow, everything pretty much almost open. This coming weekend is gonna be a different story. Oh how I wish I could be a midweek skier


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## xlr8r (Feb 8, 2021)

Kachina should be open on Weekends as a pressure relief for Flying Bear, also the race teams should now be using Trillium for training instead of Illusion.


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## So Inclined (Feb 8, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Kachina is not as egregious as no yankee during the week but would lessen the bear line and provide an alternate to hiking if bear goes down as it did the previous weekend.



Hiking from where to where in such a scenario - the Bear base area back to Abenaki? That would be awful.


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## thebigo (Feb 8, 2021)

So Inclined said:


> Hiking from where to where in such a scenario - the Bear base area back to Abenaki? That would be awful.


The race club kids are hiking/skating from the bottom of trillium to abenaki rather than wait in the line for bear. Last sunday when bear went down, large number of people hiked to abenaki, you had no other choice if your car was on the other side.


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## xlr8r (Feb 8, 2021)

Hiking to Abenaki is not that bad of a hike, it is almost completely flat,  But it should never be needed as Kachina should open for racing and for whenever Flying Bear shut downs for issues.  The fact that they still are not running Flying Yankee midweek is appalling.  And also why are they running learning center on weekdays instead of  the double double with the mid station.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Hiking to Abenaki is not that bad of a hike, it is almost completely flat,  But it should never be needed as Kachina should open for racing and for whenever Flying Bear shut downs for issues.  The fact that they still are not running Flying Yankee midweek is appalling.  And also why are they running learning center on weekdays instead of  the double double with the mid station.


How are they not running the main HSQ midweek?  ASC did not even do that!


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## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How are they not running the main HSQ midweek?  ASC did not even do that!



Questionable decision to try and start the season with top-to-bottom skiing at Attitash on both mountains. And mother nature made sure that decision came back and bit them HARD. Only now are they catching up and getting Moat, Grandstand, etc online. Maybe after that they'll switch to running the HSQ over the triple midweek?

Just thinking about the amount of wasted snowmaking on Northwest Passage makes me sad.


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## njdiver85 (Feb 8, 2021)

Interesting development at Mount Snow - they said on Twitter they surveyed comments on social media and made the decision to run both summit lifts during the week, as opposed to one summit lift and the Canyon lift.  So maybe Vail not totally tone deaf.  One can only hope.


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## RichT (Feb 8, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I agree, if you cannot afford to pay somebody, whose job is to keep people safe, $15/hr than there is something wrong with your business model. I was told by one of the seasonal coaches that they start at $8/hr. Could not believe it but he had no reason to lie to me. Any parents out there reading this, make sure you tip your coaches well.


Your last sentence, answered the sentence before it.


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## Smellytele (Feb 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How are they not running the main HSQ midweek?  ASC did not even do that!


No ASC were they idiots who put it in.


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## 2Planker (Feb 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> No ASC were they idiots who put it in.


Yes ASC installed it, and RAN IT EVERY DAY


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## ctdubl07 (Feb 8, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Interesting development at Mount Snow - they said on Twitter they surveyed comments on social media and made the decision to run both summit lifts during the week, as opposed to one summit lift and the Canyon lift.  So maybe Vail not totally tone deaf.  One can only hope.


Next will come a return to running Canyon due to newbies inability to navigate Cascade to the Canyon serviced more moderate terrain. 

(re: prior post, I think yesterday's manageable crowds owe a lot it being a typical Super Bowl day combined with snow storm driving evacuation. It was a great day! Saturday was lunacy, didn't even bother going out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 8, 2021)

I don't have a problem with the Yankee other than the triple should have gone HSQ as well. The topgraphy of the mountain pretty much supports a mid Mountain lift.  Stuff up high is too steep or gets skied off too quickly for intermediate skiers.  I can see why ASC didn't replace the triple at the time. It was only an 11-12 year old lift and long, slow fixed grip lifts were still pretty normal. But now Attitash is pretty much the only hold out except for Smuggs and Magic for 1500+ vertical mountains who don't have a high speed quad on a main lift that length


----------



## Mainer (Feb 9, 2021)

Attitash posted on Facebook they would be running yankee and Abenaki during vacation week and midweek for rest of season. Then they deleted post. I was skiing there yesterday and it was cold, couldn’t bring myself to go to the attitash side. If they don’t open lifts midweek next week, shit is going to hit the fan. Just the green learning center would be the only accessible lower/ intermediate trail for the families during school vacation week. Imagine renting a slope side Abenaki mansion to find out it’s not ski out this year.   This will be the icing on the vail sucks cake


----------



## Mum skier (Feb 9, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Attitash posted on Facebook they would be running yankee and Abenaki during vacation week and midweek for rest of season. Then they deleted post. I was skiing there yesterday and it was cold, couldn’t bring myself to go to the attitash side. If they don’t open lifts midweek next week, shit is going to hit the fan. Just the green learning center would be the only accessible lower/ intermediate trail for the families during school vacation week. Imagine renting a slope side Abenaki mansion to find out it’s not ski out this year.   This will be the icing on the vail sucks cake


Surely They can manage to find staff for the vacation week for the lifts.  With all the travel restrictions Attitash is one of the best options for MA travelers with all the accommodations and NH seemingly being a little easier to visit.  We are hoping to do one midweek day, but am waiting to see lift status before committing.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 9, 2021)

catskillman said:


> without the crazy lines at hunter you will get more skiing in, not the challenging stuff, but it should be more relaxing this season


I disagree. You may get more runs in but Hunter's runs have ~3x the vertical. And Frost gets some lines and has less alternate lifts to avoid them than Hunter does.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Feb 10, 2021)

JF/BB are within 10/15 from my house and it's not worth it.


----------



## Edd (Feb 10, 2021)

Interesting how they’re not grooming Middle Catapult, Alley Cat, Cheetah, at Wildcat. It was primo there today.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2021)

Edd said:


> Interesting how they’re not grooming Middle Catapult, Alley Cat, Cheetah, at Wildcat. It was primo there today.


They haven't made snow on any of them yet.  Very rare for an eastern ski area to groom something that doesn't have a man made base.

It's unfortunate because Alley Cat is a favorite groomer of mine to rip at Cat.  Having it plus Cheetah and lower Catapult groomed plus the Bobcat chair open would really help take pressure off the quad


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 10, 2021)

Edd said:


> Interesting how they’re not grooming Middle Catapult, Alley Cat, Cheetah, at Wildcat. It was primo there today.





deadheadskier said:


> They haven't made snow on any of them yet.  Very rare for an eastern ski area to groom something that doesn't have a man made base.
> 
> It's unfortunate because Alley Cat is a favorite groomer of mine to rip at Cat.  Having it plus Cheetah and lower Catapult groomed plus the Bobcat chair open would really help take pressure off the quad



If/when Bobcat comes back online maybe they will get back to snowmaking and grooming? I actually prefer Catapult ungroomed but anyone that's been on Lynx and Polecat during the weekend knows grooming alternate trails is necessary to handle insane crowding on those trails.

Right now most of the weekend crowd views Wildcat like this:


Lately the kids and I have been enjoying dropping off Lynx at Midway and running Catacomb/Panther or Alley Cat. Nice and quiet. Almost nobody in the middle of the mountain the past few weekends.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2021)

Catacomb Glade - Gee,  I wonder who won the contest to name that 20 years ago...


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2021)

pinion247 said:


> If/when Bobcat comes back online maybe they will get back to snowmaking and grooming? I actually prefer Catapult ungroomed but anyone that's been on Lynx and Polecat during the weekend knows grooming alternate trails is necessary to handle insane crowding on those trails.
> 
> Right now most of the weekend crowd views Wildcat like this:
> View attachment 50335
> ...


Pretty cool what you did with that map there. On point for the current situation.

I definitely prefer middle Catapult ungroomed, but not lower.  It's just too flat to develop decent bumps. 

The whole Bobcat chair pod is unrealized as a great intermediate / family pod IMO.  Maybe Vail invests in it properly eventually.   I'd love to see the lift upgraded to be a bit faster with a carpet load like Shawnee did with their triple. It's a slow ass lift for such short vertical and that's why it's underutilized 

Do that and offer consistent and EARLY season snowmaking on Alley Cat, Lower Catapult, Bobcat, Cheetah and Kitten.  Leave Copycat, Lower Wildcat and Wildcat Pitch as natural bump trails.

I think all of that would take some pressure off the quad and Polecat and Lynx trails. 

If they did upgrade the lift, that pod would be where my early season focus would be instead of trying to open the quad and Lynx first.   Just open that chair and Bobcat trail first.  The early season diehards would make the extra walk up to the Bobcat chair.   Then tie Bobcat up to Middle Wildcat and Upper Catapult to open the summit


----------



## snoseek (Feb 10, 2021)

I too was at wildcat today and yes it is skiing fantastic, I think alot has to do with the natural snowpack being dominant. Place is a mogul fest and I totally loved it but we will pay dearly come spring or a thaw. The cats gone feral get it while its good!


----------



## thebigo (Feb 11, 2021)

Nice map pinion.

Attitash has blown every snowmaking trail deep in time for vacation week. Priority should be to switch the crew back up to the cat.

Bobcat should be early and late season. It is far enough from c lot, they could set up some picnic tables and a grill, sell food and beers up there in the spring.

Crotch has been spectacular the last couple evenings. The bump course they built should be built every year.

I reached out today and both yankee and abenaki are scheduled to run vacation week.


----------



## Edd (Feb 11, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I too was at wildcat today and yes it is skiing fantastic, I think alot has to do with the natural snowpack being dominant. Place is a mogul fest and I totally loved it but we will pay dearly come spring or a thaw. The cats gone feral get it while its good!


I agree and was thinking yesterday the winds, combined with cold temps, have caused the natural terrain to fill in nicely.


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## Mainer (Feb 12, 2021)

No way wildcat is doing snowmaking after presidents week. It will be a good excuse for them to close early when the snow melts out. They will say something along the line of wish we could stay open longer but Mother Nature is not cooperating. Attitash is probably hopefully going to try to make the snowmakers lifties for the rest of the year. I should probably go skiing right now


----------



## drjeff (Feb 12, 2021)

If one wants to believe in the 10 day forecast, looks like the vast majority of ski country is going to get into the end of February with no real melting, and likely multiple refreshing storms as well. Heck, even the long range 90 days trends forecast is predicting a "cool" Spring for the Northeast, FWIW

I think the reality is, and not just for the Vail Resorts, that short of Killington hitting Superstar, and maybe a couple of select other resorts/trails, if not already done, widespread snowmaking will be done in the next few days.

Mother nature has been very good to the Northeast Ski Areas since basically MLK Day weekend, and arguably since right after the Christmas Day monsoon


----------



## kingslug (Feb 12, 2021)

2 feet this week alone at stowe and the bush..cold as hell today and tomorrow..more snow coming...get it while its good..


----------



## Vince (Feb 12, 2021)

Vail has sold or is in the process of selling the Okemo Golf Course to a private investor.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2021)

Vince said:


> Vail has sold or is in the process of selling the Okemo Golf Course to a private investor.


That seems odd.  I would think that would be a big part of their four-season plans for Okemo.


----------



## giantfan (Feb 13, 2021)

Vince said:


> Vail has sold or is in the process of selling the Okemo Golf Course to a private investor.


Do you know if they are selling Okemo Valley, Tater Hill, or both?

Edit: They have this posted on the Tater Hill site:
UPDATE: TATER HILL GOLF CLUB TO PERMANENTLY CLOSE​After careful consideration, we have made the decision to permanently close Tater Hill Golf Club. Throughout the summer months, we will continue to place our focus on the upcoming ski and snowboard season at Okemo and look forward to welcoming our guests back to Okemo this winter.


----------



## njdiver85 (Feb 13, 2021)

Wondering if the Mount Snow Golf Club is on the chopping block then?


----------



## LonghornSkier (Feb 13, 2021)

Don’t really understanding divesting golf assets when the pandemic was the best thing for entry into the sport in 20 years...


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 13, 2021)

Moving on from the Okemo course is surprising. Closing Tater Hill is not.  A friend of mine was the pro there for a few years.  Place struggled to make money and there was talk of closing it every year.  Only reason Okemo ended up with it is because the owners of Fox Run, the former 9 hole course Okemo expanded to 18, also owned Tater Hill and they included it as part of the Fox Run sale.


----------



## NYDB (Feb 13, 2021)

Okemo Valley Golf was probably the best thing Okemo had going.  Fun course.  Hard but playable and nice views.  Very resorty course feel.    Only other golf course affiliated with a ski mountain that is on par or better would be sugarloaf. 

I hope the new owners don't turn it private


Tater Hill is probably the strangest course I have ever played.  Front 9 was great for high handicappers though and kids learning the game.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 13, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Okemo Valley Golf was probably the best thing Okemo had going.  Fun course.  Hard but playable and nice views.  Very resorty course feel.    Only other golf course affiliated with a ski mountain that is on par or better would be sugarloaf.
> 
> I hope the new owners don't turn it private
> 
> ...


I would say Sunday Rive is on par w/ Sugarloaf..


----------



## thebigo (Feb 13, 2021)

Covid shut down the freestyle program at attitash today. Ended up being a blessing in disguise, had a great day with my daughter:


----------



## drjeff (Feb 14, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> Wondering if the Mount Snow Golf Club is on the chopping block then?


Whether or not it means anything related to a possible sale of the Mount Snow Golf Club or not, who knows, however there is some Mount Snow Golf Club logo items for sale at 50% off right now in the Mount Snow Sports main base lodge location.

Can't say that I haven't in the past seen MS Golf Club logo Merchandise on sale in the Winter months before, however there seemed to be more quantity of items out today than in the past...


----------



## Vince (Feb 14, 2021)

I only know about the Okemo Golf Course being sold. Don't know on Tater Hill or any others


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## jaybird (Feb 15, 2021)

Best thing about okemo was that golf course


----------



## NYDB (Feb 15, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> Don’t really understanding divesting golf assets when the pandemic was the best thing for entry into the sport in 20 years...


Sell high


----------



## Kevin Schultz (Feb 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Whether or not it means anything related to a possible sale of the Mount Snow Golf Club or not, who knows, however there is some Mount Snow Golf Club logo items for sale at 50% off right now in the Mount Snow Sports main base lodge location.
> 
> Can't say that I haven't in the past seen MS Golf Club logo Merchandise on sale in the Winter months before, however there seemed to be more quantity of items out today than in the past...


Vail already pushed "The Original Golf School" out of the Mount Snow Golf Club (it landed at Haystack so not a loss for the valley thankfully). I'm not sure if that is a sign Vail doesn't care about golf generally or if they just want to standardize absolutely everything from resort to resort so a bespoke golf training program had to go.


----------



## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

Oh, Vail needs cash desperately


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Oh, Vail needs cash desperately



This could definitely be the reason.  If they start selling off ski areas, amateur investors will get spooked.   Selling off gold courses will generate cash more under the radar


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## Cobbold (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Oh, Vail needs cash desperately


How do you know this?  Is this your opinion or you have access to vails controllers office in Colorado?


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## ss20 (Feb 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> How do you know this?  Is this your opinion or you have access to vails controllers office in Colorado?



It's a publicly traded company so it's all available.....they're in pretty deep shit.  






						Vail Resorts Free Cash Flow 2010-2022 | MTN
					

Vail Resorts annual/quarterly free cash flow history and growth rate from 2010 to 2022. Free cash flow can be defined as a measure of financial performance calculated as operating cash flow minus capital expenditures.     				 				<ul style='margin-top:10px;'> 				<li>Vail Resorts free cash flow...




					www.macrotrends.net
				





2020-10-3181.832020-07-31222.622020-04-30321.212020-01-31415.902019-10-31156.722019-07-31442.202019-04-30518.702019-01-31392.652018-10-31129.202018-07-31407.882018-04-30474.352018-01-31346.382017-10-31117.962017-07-31326.552017-04-30382.362017-01-31236.462016-10-3110.982016-07-31327.742016-04-30367.122016-01-31232.23


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## Cobbold (Feb 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It's a publicly traded company so it's all available.....they're in pretty deep shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You guys are hilarious, did you read this chart? Theirs Seasonality to it, unless vail had financial  problems in 2016 look at 2016 10-31, eight times the cash now then back then, I think this season is tough, will vail lose money, yes, will alterra loose money, yes along with every other major ski area, that makes money on food beverage, lodging rentals ski lessons etc,  vail already preannounced the quarter ending in December. Will be ugly, but it was ugly for everyone. Vail has a line of credit if they need it, vail is not crashing, one more year of COVID sure, but everybody is in the same boat


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## Edd (Feb 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> You guys are hilarious, did you read this chart? Theirs Seasonality to it, unless vail had financial  problems in 2016 look at 2016 10-31, eight times the cash now then back then, I think this season is tough, will vail lose money, yes, will alterra loose money, yes along with every other major ski area, that makes money on food beverage, lodging rentals ski lessons etc,  vail already preannounced the quarter ending in December. Will be ugly, but it was ugly for everyone. Vail has a line of credit if they need it, vail is not crashing, one more year of COVID sure, but everybody is in the same boat


I happen to know Gunstock isn’t losing money. They’re in pretty good shape financially. They had to drastically cut summer activities and reset the table on things. F & B is way down of course. Makes me wonder if Cannon and some other individual players are in good shape.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> You guys are hilarious, did you read this chart? Theirs Seasonality to it, unless vail had financial  problems in 2016 look at 2016 10-31, eight times the cash now then back then, I think this season is tough, will vail lose money, yes, will alterra loose money, yes along with every other major ski area, that makes money on food beverage, lodging rentals ski lessons etc,  vail already preannounced the quarter ending in December. Will be ugly, but it was ugly for everyone. Vail has a line of credit if they need it, vail is not crashing, one more year of COVID sure, but everybody is in the same boat



There is seasonality to it, yes.  But still...Q3 free cash was half of what it was the Q3 of the previous year.  And with no acquisitions and no improvements made over the off season.  

Their debt is stupid high as well.  I don't see how any logical person could argue Vail is in a solid financial shape.  I am not at all in-tune with the full situation but @BenedictGomez is and he's got a whole narrative on what will happen to VR and why they're really shaky.  But essentially, they've got massive debt due to all their purchases but it's ok because they post massive growth numbers y-o-y.  But now the debt bubble is nearing its popping point and there's no more big, profitable ski resorts left to purchase (that's an exaggeration, don't take that completely literally).  And natural, organic growth in this industry is miniscule.  So now they've got too much debt and their growth is going to be flat essentially.  Bubble going pop...pop...pop...


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> There is seasonality to it, yes.  But still...Q3 free cash was half of what it was the Q3 of the previous year.  And with no acquisitions and no improvements made over the off season.
> 
> Their debt is stupid high as well.  I don't see how any logical person could argue Vail is in a solid financial shape.  I am not at all in-tune with the full situation but @BenedictGomez is and he's got a whole narrative on what will happen to VR and why they're really shaky.  But essentially, they've got massive debt due to all their purchases but it's ok because they post massive growth numbers y-o-y.  But now the debt bubble is nearing its popping point and there's no more big, profitable ski resorts left to purchase (that's an exaggeration, don't take that completely literally).  And natural, organic growth in this industry is miniscule.  So now they've got too much debt and their growth is going to be flat essentially.  Bubble going pop...pop...pop...


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 16, 2021)

Well it’s not popping today, Mtn up 11:50 bucks today, just a hair under 300, you should put your check book where  your mouth is and sell vail short.  You do realize vail sold 1.2 million epic passes last year and this year 1.4 million, but yes vail is crashing and burning


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## Smellytele (Feb 16, 2021)

Edd said:


> I happen to know Gunstock isn’t losing money. They’re in pretty good shape financially. They had to drastically cut summer activities and reset the table on things. F & B is way down of course. Makes me wonder if Cannon and some other individual players are in good shape.


Cannon contracts out their F&B so it may not hurt as badly. Not sure if that contract is based on intake or just a flat fee. Seeing it is the state it probably is a flat fee.


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## ss20 (Feb 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Well it’s not popping today, Mtn up 11:50 bucks today, just a hair under 300, you should put your check book where  your mouth is and sell vail short.  You do realize vail sold 1.2 million epic passes last year and this year 1.4 million, but yes vail is crashing and burning



What is happening on Wall Street is not indicative of long-term financial health and you know that.  

Looking back, yes, MTN would've been a really nice short-sell.


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## AdironRider (Feb 16, 2021)

Benedict is a coding jockey from Albany, he isn't any more in tune to ski area financials than you are. He just has a louder opinion.

Ski areas make much more money than they would ever admit but sure do like the free pass they get on a lot of things due to public perception of it being a tough road to hoe.


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## eatskisleep (Feb 16, 2021)

I’m short shares right now. Hit all
Time high today. Season pass sales are up? Yeah they acquired 17 new mountains from Peaks (at a time when many people already had last season’s pass purchased)... so yeah, I’d hope they would be up! then they scared people into getting season passes with all the “must reserve your day BS”. Vail is a shit company, they treat their employees like crap, and they take good mountains and suck the soul out of them.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2021)

hearing a Rumor that the lifties are striking at Roundtop on Sunday at 11 AM.  

Citing that they aren't being paid Vail's minimum wage of $10/hr, short staffed, safety issues (curious about this one for sure) and demanding back pay for the additional $2/hr.

Apparently management (again not sure what level) is in support and Management has had no communication with Corporate. 

Demanding a resolution by end of this week or a strike on Sunday at 11 AM.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 17, 2021)

$8 an hour for a lifty?  If that's the case, I'd expect them to strike as well.


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## PAabe (Feb 17, 2021)

Holy cow nobody around here pays $8/hr anymore, not even walmart or mcdonalds.  Most entry jobs I see starting at $11-15, and Vail wonders why they have staffing problems?


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 17, 2021)

Odd timing for a strike. Would have had a lot more impact before last weekend then now that the season is in winding down mode. No way they are going to get back pay out of Vail and best scenario is the each take home an extra $100 or so over the next few weeks.

As it is unlikely these guys have a union contract to protect them, I expect it will lead to a lot of lay offs, shifting folks in management and other roles to manning a smaller set of lifts for the rest of the season (can't really hire many people for a 6 week job especially with current unemployment compensation levels), and an earlier end to the season. Gonna hurt pass holders more than anything else.


jimmywilson69 said:


> hearing a Rumor that the lifties are striking at Roundtop on Sunday at 11 AM.
> 
> Citing that they aren't being paid Vail's minimum wage of $10/hr, short staffed, safety issues (curious about this one for sure) and demanding back pay for the additional $2/hr.
> 
> ...


----------



## PAabe (Feb 17, 2021)

From what I have heard Roundtop needs every chair/J-bar running uphill they can get, as do other vail areas, with how busy all these places have been.  Vail is in a tight spot for sure haha


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 17, 2021)

PAabe said:


> From what I have heard Roundtop needs every chair/J-bar running uphill they can get, as do other vail areas, with how busy all these places have been.  Vail is in a tight spot for sure haha


When I was at RT 2.5 weeks ago on a Sat the lines looked bad at the lift closest to the lodge but were only about 5 min on the 2 lifts that served their more legit terrain. They only have 3 non bunny hill lifts - so they need 6 people to staff them.

If I am Vail Management and a bunch of non-union seasonal employees at a podunk feeder hill threaten a walk out for the last few weeks of the season, with salaried management apparently supporting them per above post, I tell 4-6 salaried guys to get out there and run 2-3 lifts on the remaining weekends if they want to keep their salaried positions. And if that doesn't work and I have to fire those guys, I close the mountain early for the season - knowing that
(A) I am going to lose money staying open that month anyway largely for pass holders with minimum food / bev / lessons this season.
(B) My pass holders can go to Liberty or Whitetail that month
(C) My DC/Baltimore/Harrisburg passholders are going to still buy passes next year because I own every ski area that is close enough to regularly day trip to.

I wish them all the best as I am more supportive of labor than management. But putting on my "Rob Katz" hat I have to laugh at the negotiating leverage they bring to the table.


----------



## PAabe (Feb 17, 2021)

Fair points.  Best of luck to Roundtop lifties and management.  The place has always had the friendliest employees and best vibe around but I doubt Vail cares.  At any rate though, until they start paying $12/hr or otherwise offer better benefits/employment environment they are going to have staffing issues going forward into next year, especially if they fire people now.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 17, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Fair points.  Best of luck to Roundtop lifties and management.  The place has always had the friendliest employees and best vibe around but I doubt Vail cares.


I was truly struck by the happy friends and family vibe among the skiers there.  Everybody seemed to know one another and enjoy chatting with their friends in the lift lines as much as skiing. A place everybody knows your name - like the skiing version of Cheers.


----------



## PAabe (Feb 17, 2021)

I always enjoy skiing there despite the lack of vertical.  Nice crowds, employees, trail design, snow, lodge, and vibe.  It is just a nice place to be.  Hopefully it can avoid getting Vail'ed too hard.


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## abc (Feb 17, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> passholders are going to still buy passes next year because I own every ski area that is close enough to regularly day trip to.


The power of monopoly!


----------



## PAabe (Feb 17, 2021)

abc said:


> The power of monopoly!


Yikes for sure, I had been thinking about getting a season pass for somewhere next year (either buying or working there) and Roundtop/Epic would make the most sense given location, other options being Bear Creek (tiny and crowded) or Indy Pass (significantly longer drives to Blue Knob/Shawnee/Canaan Valley/Massanutten/Greek Peak).  However given all of the Vail shenanigans I will be _strongly_ considering Indy Pass+$26 night skiing tickets at Bear creek, plus there really are a lot of great places on Indy if one is down for the drive - I _gotta_ hit up Magic and Cannon after seeing all the hype for them here.

FWIW (completely anecdotally here) most people buying day tickets in Lancaster like me have been slowly abandoning Roundtop as prices have been going up since Snow Time sold, especially now that 4-hour tickets and cheap night skiing are things of the past there.  It just makes more sense to go to Bear Creek/Blue Mountain or suck it up and drive to Elk/Montage/Blue Knob given the much cheaper rates of lift tickets at all of those places.  I speak for Lancaster here and not points west/south.

I would say that Vail better be careful about not losing the Washington crowd too because Indy Pass or the new and improved Timberline definitely would appear to be giving them a run for the money in that market.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 17, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Yikes for sure, I had been thinking about getting a season pass for somewhere next year (either buying or working there) and Roundtop/Epic would make the most sense given location, other options being Bear Creek (tiny and crowded) or Indy Pass (significantly longer drives to Blue Knob/Shawnee/Canaan Valley/Massanutten/Greek Peak).  However given all of the Vail shenanigans I will be _strongly_ considering Indy Pass+$26 night skiing tickets at Bear creek, plus there really are a lot of great places on Indy if one is down for the drive.
> 
> FWIW (completely anecdotally here) most people buying day tickets in Lancaster like me have been slowly abandoning Roundtop as prices have been going up since Snow Time sold, especially now that 4-hour tickets and cheap night skiing are things of the past there.  It just makes more sense to go to Bear Creek/Blue Mountain or suck it up and drive to Elk/Montage/Blue Knob given the much cheaper rates of lift tickets at all of those places.  I speak for Lancaster here and not points west/south.


I would give consideration to Blue Mountain. In recent years their pass prices have been low (430 if bought in Feb 2020) and included the remainder of the prior season. Not much further than Bear Creek, and twice the vertical. Gets crazy crowded on weekends but passholders get their own line which makes the wait way more manageable. I had a pass there for 2 years ago when they were offering a crazy $99 deal for 6th graders, so we got 3 passes for under $600.

With that $99 deal gone for us though Epic is a no brainer as it gives access to so many better places and just skiing one place most of the winter got a bit old hat.


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## crystalmountainskier (Feb 18, 2021)

abc said:


> The power of monopoly!


Vail does not enjoy a monopoly in ANY United States major ski market. Not a duopoly either. Competition is alive and well in the US ski industry.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 18, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Vail does not enjoy a monopoly in ANY United States major ski market. Not a duopoly either. Competition is alive and well in the US ski industry.


What competition of comparable quality do their 3 hills have within 2 hrs of Baltimore or DC?


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## PAabe (Feb 18, 2021)

From DC you can get to Massanutten or Bryce in about 2 hours but Vail definitely has the Baltimore and south central PA market cornered.  A lot of people really don't like to drive and are not willing to drive more than 2 hours to the many other places that are within the 4-5 hour day trip-able range.  I have never been to Massanutten or Bryce, their vertical is 1000 and 500, respectively, but they do not appear to be as large as the snow time areas.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 18, 2021)

massanutten is weak although you do get 1000 vert, but the trail count is limited.  

The people in DC who want to own a vacation home "locally" at a ski area do so at Wisp or 7 Springs.  Whitetail does have some condos, but nothing compared to Wisp or 7s.


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## NYDB (Feb 18, 2021)

4-5 hour one way day trip?  That's a stout trip!


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 18, 2021)

LOL I'm really only willing to drive 4-5 miles for a day trip       


I really have missed going to VT or out west this year though...  Especially now that I'm on the DL


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## PAabe (Feb 18, 2021)

5 hours is definitely a bit far now that I think about it, past 4 is stretching it lol.  5 hours is a hike but it seems that some people do in fact do it.

Indy pass looking more and more line a great option for the entire east coast market - lots of great places that are just a bit farther drive, and some fantastic places up north (and down south!) that would be great for a multi-day trip.  Supposing a 4 1/2 hour limit there are 9 day-trippable places for me; Epic only gets you snow time+jf/bb+hunter, and hunter is the only one of those approaching what one could call large.  At $259 or local pass+$169 the price is right, too.  Not to mention the dang vibe at the indy places.  However, it seems most would definitely be doing a lot more driving with Indy.

The folks over at dcski have really been hyping up the new and improved Timberline.  That would be a great place to own some property, with Canaan Valley, Whitegrass, and Timberline all right next to each other (you can literally ski between the downhill areas via whitegrass), and indeed, I hear property value has been going through the roof there this year.  That area is 3 hours from DC.

edit: there are actually 9 places within 4.5hr, not 7, very nice!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 18, 2021)

had a friend go to Timberline first week of January.  They were at his brothers house at Deep Creek and Day tripped there.  Said it was decent.  2 brand new lifts and a new lodge and tons of new snowmaking to supplement all of that natural snow they get out that way.  Seems like its worth a visit if you are out that way.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> 4-5 hour one way day trip?  That's a stout trip!



ive done it for magic, stratton, killington, and gore. i did it once for mad river glen and said 'this is too far' to not have a sleep.


----------



## Cobbold (Feb 18, 2021)

P


PAabe said:


> 5 hours is definitely a bit far now that I think about it, past 4 is stretching it lol.  5 hours is a hike but it seems that some people do in fact do it.
> 
> Indy pass looking more and more line a great option for the entire east coast market - lots of great places that are just a bit farther drive, and some fantastic places up north (and down south!) that would be great for a multi-day trip.  Supposing a 4 1/2 hour limit there are 7 day-trippable places for me; Epic only gets you snow time+jf/bb+hunter, and hunter is the only one of those approaching what one could call large.  At $259 or local pass+$169 the price is right, too.  However, it seems most would definitely be doing a lot more driving with Indy.
> 
> The folks over at dcski have really been hyping up the new and improved Timberline.  That would be a great place to own some property, with Canaan Valley, Whitegrass, and Timberline all right next to each other (if you have passes for 2-3 you can literally ski between them), and indeed, I hear property value has been going through the roof there this year.  That area is 3 hours from DC.


wait till vail buys perfect north out, this board will go crazy


----------



## PAabe (Feb 18, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> wait till vail buys perfect north out, this board will go crazy


ohno please no.  would be pretty rad to get a canann valley superpass going though.


----------



## kingslug (Feb 18, 2021)

I'll be waking up at 3AM saturday morning for Gore. Last season we would drive 5 hours to Stowe on Friday..after my 1.5 hour commute..then get up for the 7:30 chair. Almost every weekend..This will happen again next season..By the end of the season..I'm shot...then bike season starts..3 hours to the track near Oneonta...
Now I'm shot all the time...


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 18, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I'll be waking up at 3AM saturday morning for Gore. Last season we would drive 5 hours to Stowe on Friday..after my 1.5 hour commute..then get up for the 7:30 chair. Almost every weekend..This will happen again next season..By the end of the season..I'm shot...then bike season starts..3 hours to the track near Oneonta...
> Now I'm shot all the time...


oh to be young...


----------



## cdskier (Feb 18, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I'll be waking up at 3AM saturday morning for Gore. Last season we would drive 5 hours to Stowe on Friday..after my 1.5 hour commute..then get up for the 7:30 chair. Almost every weekend..This will happen again next season..By the end of the season..I'm shot...then bike season starts..3 hours to the track near Oneonta...
> Now I'm shot all the time...


Not quite sure how I will go back to doing the weekly 5 hour drive to VT next year. So incredibly relaxing not dealing with that this year.


----------



## Edd (Feb 24, 2021)

Hit Attitash for the first time this season. Never one of my favorite hills but today was damn good. Plenty of nice ungroomed snow and trees also. Not running the Yankee during NH vacation week,


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> Hit Attitash for the first time this season. Never one of my favorite hills but today was damn good. Plenty of nice ungroomed snow and trees also. Not running the Yankee during NH vacation week,


Drive by there on my way back from ice climbing in Crawford notch. Bear peak parking lot looked pretty full but the triple at attitash proper had no line. 
skied 2 days at Black this week on the Indy pass which were a lot of fun. Heading to mt abram tomorrow for throw back Thursday. $19.50!


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 24, 2021)

i know its weird, but i like the drive, and particularly like the middle of the night drive. i listen to my pods and it all feels very zen. makin the best of what is required to ski where i want to ski. i did have a moment after going bell to bell at sugarbush last saturday where i wished i was going back to a comfy house with a hot tub and leg messager (we got this and we love it) instead of a grimy days inn on route 7.


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## kingslug (Feb 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> oh to be young...


56 years...young? more like medium rare...


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## thebigo (Feb 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> Hit Attitash for the first time this season. Never one of my favorite hills but today was damn good. Plenty of nice ungroomed snow and trees also. Not running the Yankee during NH vacation week,


How was the line at bear? Wildcat was ski on Monday and today. Bear line was brutal last weekend, maze was full Tuesday with the yankee closed. Never a line for the triple midweek, max a few minutes on weekends with yankee open.

The snow pack in the valley is so good right now it is hard for the skiing to be anything but damn good. Even wilfreds was good last weekend. Snow in the woods at the cat is several feet deep but there are rocks showing on polecat. Big fat flakes starting to accumulate again today when we left at 3:00.

Attitash tuesday:



Wilfreds last weekend:


----------



## Edd (Feb 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> How was the line at bear? Wildcat was ski on Monday and today. Bear line was brutal last weekend, maze was full Tuesday with the yankee closed. Never a line for the triple midweek, max a few minutes on weekends with yankee open.
> 
> The snow pack in the valley is so good right now it is hard for the skiing to be anything but damn good. Even wilfreds was good last weekend. Snow in the woods at the cat is several feet deep but there are rocks showing on polecat. Big fat flakes starting to accumulate again today when we left at 3:00.
> 
> ...


Line at Bear was about 10 minutes at 9am and about 2 minutes by 10:30. At that point we went over to 15 minute lines at the Summit Triple which got down to 5 minutes by 1 or so.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 25, 2021)

I waited in a half hr line at 1130 on Tuesday for triple. Longest line I’ve been in all year. I don’t ski saturdays. Then it was ski on for rest of day. Triple’s not running full speed either. But skiing was great, pocket beers for the long warm sunny ride. Poached kachina at end of day a bunch for untracked. No jumps at attitash this year kinda sucks though, it’s fun to hit jumps when it’s soft. No yankee must have really pissed off all the families there. The lifty at the top shack of Abenaki asked us if everything was closed at the attitash side because everyone was complaining to him. Get your skiing in now because they are going to close first chance they get.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 26, 2021)

vail lift guy came to Roundtop and shut their Triple that accesses the top of the expert terrain down for the year.  Apparently it needs a part that can't be sourced until after the season will be over here.  top of expert terrain can be accessed by a short slightly uphill skate.

I'm a little concerned that they've been running it either damaged or missing something before the corporate guy came to town... 

Over cautious or overzealous?   I would think that with a lift you can't ever be over cautious.  

the thing is 37 years old and typically runs in winter and summer to service a zip line course.   Its time is nigh...


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> vail lift guy came to Roundtop and shut their Triple that accesses the top of the expert terrain down for the year.  Apparently it needs a part that can't be sourced until after the season will be over here.  top of expert terrain can be accessed by a short slightly uphill skate.
> 
> I'm a little concerned that they've been running it either damaged or missing something before the corporate guy came to town...
> 
> ...


Good to know as Vail is being coy about how long it will last on RT site. One of 3 real lifts down will make lines pretty bad, but still going there Sat as they look to have about the most rain free afternoon. Hopefully rainy AM will keep crowds down.


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> vail lift guy came to Roundtop and shut their Triple that accesses the top of the expert terrain down for the year.  Apparently it needs a part that can't be sourced until after the season will be over here.  top of expert terrain can be accessed by a short slightly uphill skate.
> 
> I'm a little concerned that they've been running it either damaged or missing something before the corporate guy came to town...
> 
> ...


What are the tramway laws like in PA? If it was overly egregious, odds are it might not have been certified to run in the first place


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 26, 2021)

Apparently crowds were lighter than all season last weekend.  Being on the DL I didn't even head up to tailgate with our friends


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 26, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> What are the tramway laws like in PA? If it was overly egregious, odds are it might not have been certified to run in the first place


no idea  I'm not sure we even have a tramway law per se.  I think they are governed and inspected by the amusement ride law?  I honestly never looked into it.  Frankly there might not be a yearly inspection.


----------



## thebigo (Feb 26, 2021)

Friday morning vacation week. Large race on bear, line out of the corral and yankee closed. Everytime you think they may be figuring it out, they reaffirm their incompetence.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Friday morning vacation week. Large race on bear, line out of the corral and yankee closed. Everytime you think they may be figuring it out, they reaffirm their incompetence.


That is absolute bullshit.  The Yankee should run every single day of the season that there is enough snow to run it


----------



## xlr8r (Feb 26, 2021)

I think Vail has not operated a lot lifts at former Peak Resorts for maintenance issues.  Bobcat took till last couple weeks to open.  Kachina and one of the double doubles has not operated at Attitash, Park took til mid season to operate at Crotched.  Also Vail shutdown ducking at Sunapee and one of the lifts at Crested Butte when they bought triple peaks.  Seems like Vail does have high lift maintenance standards compared to Peaks and Triple Peaks.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2021)

Lack of Yankee most of the season has nothing to do with maintenance and everything to do with Vail being a corporate penny pinching operation that cares more about their shareholders than their customers.  

I can't wait to call myself an ex-customer of theirs.  The only thing making it slightly unsettling to walk away is my love for Wildcat and Stowe.  Other than that, fuck Vail


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 26, 2021)

The whole lift situation at Attitash is complete mess.  I feel sorry for the beginners forced to wait in the huge line for the east double-double.  The learning center triple has not run since the east double-double opened for the season sometime in January.  Only access to the learning center is the halfway unload.  Probably a 25 min wait at times to ski 200 feet of vertical.  How many of those skiers are never coming back?  They can’t open the west double-double, learning center triple, or Katchina triple?


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## the_awesome (Feb 26, 2021)

On my way up to WC yesterday they were running the summit triple and Yankee was closed. On my way back the summit was closed and they were running the Yankee...so it wouldn't be maintenance related. They were running both last week for Mass vaykay. It's pretty weak on their part...Yankee is a fun pod to lap mid-week, but it's never open.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Good to know as Vail is being coy about how long it will last on RT site. One of 3 real lifts down will make lines pretty bad, but still going there Sat as they look to have about the most rain free afternoon. Hopefully rainy AM will keep crowds down.


I just heard that they have obtained a part from Connecticut and are installing the part today.  so in theory the triple will run this weekend.


----------



## Mum skier (Feb 26, 2021)

Does anyone know what Wildcat has been like on Saturdays? Next weekend (first one in March) will be the first “two day weekend” we have had spare for a while so worth going a bit farther. We typically just do Sunapee on Sunday.  Sounds like Attitash is chaos, so discounting that. Epic pass resorts and not VT.


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## thebigo (Feb 26, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Does anyone know what Wildcat has been like on Saturdays? Next weekend (first one in March) will be the first “two day weekend” we have had spare for a while so worth going a bit farther. We typically just do Sunapee on Sunday.  Sounds like Attitash is chaos, so discounting that. Epic pass resorts and not VT.


In my experience, crowds in the valley evaporate when the calendar flips to March. My experience does not include any covid years but I am confident wildcat will be less crowded than sunapee first weekend of March.


----------



## So Inclined (Feb 26, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Does anyone know what Wildcat has been like on Saturdays? Next weekend (first one in March) will be the first “two day weekend” we have had spare for a while so worth going a bit farther. We typically just do Sunapee on Sunday.  Sounds like Attitash is chaos, so discounting that. Epic pass resorts and not VT.



I was at Wildcat last Saturday from about noon on and thought it was pretty good. It took about 10 mins to get through the line at the high speed quad, at least until around 2 when people began to thin out, but I don't think it ever got to literal ski-on. That's not nothing, but for a regular Hunter skier like me it was easy. Likewise the "crowds" on the slopes. Polecat was the busiest run and it was a breeze when you're used to skiing in the equivalent of interstate traffic. As someone else indicated here a couple weeks ago, it felt like virtually everything on the middle of the mountain is yours and yours alone if you want it.
And the cover was still really great - though that might have changed by now. Hope you get a great day.


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## thebigo (Feb 27, 2021)

To get an idea of the staffing shortage at attitash. The gm was covering the lifties lunch today and I don't mean sitting in the top shack, he was swinging a broom on every chair to remove the snow.

Mother nature bailed out vail again today, everything that fell in the valley was frozen. Looks close to 4" on my deck, mostly dense snow with a little sleet mixed in, surely more in the notch. Freeze thaw earlier this week left things firm but surfaces should be excellent tomorrow when the fresh is mixed in.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 27, 2021)

NY state suck to

Governor finally letting my favorite deli in Middletown more hours unfortunately it to late for so many other business es"
"""NEW HOURS  Happy to say that were back from 6am-8pm ONLY Thursday’s- Saturday’s !!! Thank you all for your support !""


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## abc (Feb 27, 2021)

What's that got to do with Vail?


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## ScottySkis (Feb 27, 2021)

abc said:


> What's that got to do with Vail?


Nothing just like half the posts by u on AZ


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## abc (Feb 27, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Nothing just like half the posts by u on AZ


ALL my posts are on inline with the thread. You may not like my posts, just like I don't always like yours.

You post random post on random places. If you want to blast NY state, start your own freaking thread.

Or if you like, I'll start one for you to post "Scotty's random moaning thread"?


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## thebigo (Feb 27, 2021)

I like Scottys posts. I love every inch of the ski experience. Scotty reminds me of the local on the next barstool.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> To get an idea of the staffing shortage at attitash. The gm was covering the lifties lunch today and I don't mean sitting in the top shack, he was swinging a broom on every chair to remove the snow.
> 
> Mother nature bailed out vail again today, everything that fell in the valley was frozen. Looks close to 4" on my deck, mostly dense snow with a little sleet mixed in, surely more in the notch. Freeze thaw earlier this week left things firm but surfaces should be excellent tomorrow when the fresh is mixed in.



Hope he has to scrub toilets too.  Maybe then he gets annoyed enough he will speak up and convince Rob Kats to pay people well enough that they actually want to work there


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I like Scottys posts. I love every inch of the ski experience. Scotty reminds me of the local on the next barstool.


Scotty is one of the nicest and most genuine people you could ever meet.  Glad he made it to one of the AZ Summits and I got to hang with him.


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## Edd (Feb 28, 2021)

Could use a Wildcat and Sunapee report for today or yesterday. Choosing between them tomorrow. Cat is claiming 3” yesterday.


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## thebigo (Feb 28, 2021)

Having a moat pils at Matty bs and the triple just went down. Stopped for about ten minutes, they got it going on what sounds like auxiliary and are now offloading and closing. With any luck it is dead.


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## snoseek (Feb 28, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Having a moat pils at Matty bs and the triple just went down. Stopped for about ten minutes, they got it going on what sounds like auxiliary and are now offloading and closing. With any luck it is dead.


With any luck vail is dead


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## Mainer (Feb 28, 2021)

Wildcat was nice today, really big line for quad though. Basically same as it has been all month. Giant moguls, 3 groomed trails, minimum ice.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 28, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Wildcat was nice today, really big line for quad though. Basically same as it has been all month. Giant moguls, 3 groomed trails, minimum ice.


Were they spinning Bobcat or Tomcat?


----------



## Mum skier (Feb 28, 2021)

Edd said:


> Could use a Wildcat and Sunapee report for today or yesterday. Choosing between them tomorrow. Cat is claiming 3” yesterday.


We were at Sunapee today, Sunday. Not sure if they really had any accumulation from Saturday.  Very hard packed, but consistent surface. Most natural trails where closed due to “refreezing” according to their report. And I can certainly believe it. Good for fast runs on piste, did not venture off anywhere.  Lines were manageable from lunch time onward. Hopefully once March is here crowds will drop more.

Amongst all the bad press for Vail I will give them a thumbs up for a small point today.  My daughter got a new jacket this week and we forgot to switch the pass over, realized part way there. I thought at the least I would have to pay $5 replacement and maybe they would give me more grief or try to make me buy a day ticket.  But no, printed new pass no issue at all, no charge.


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## Mainer (Feb 28, 2021)

Bobcat spinning, no tomcat. Line usually eases up around noon on Sundays, not today though. No real normal this year.


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## snoseek (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm hoping for a rare mellow day at sunapee tomorrow. Little rain is fine with me


----------



## thebigo (Feb 28, 2021)

NWS shows gusts to 50 mph in the notch tomorrow. Likely be another day of lunch runs at bear in the rain. Think I will take Tuesday off, looks a bit firm.


----------



## McFatt (Mar 1, 2021)

Skied Wildcat both days this past weekend and had a grin from ear to ear. The conditions Sunday were awesome. There trees had some creamy turns to be found, and Thompson Brook was worth it. Under the quad skied amazing yesterday afternoon. Spring like creamy corn. Too bad it's gonna nuke today and all week with temps nosediving and -30 windchills. The last couple weekends have been pretty good considering the lousy start to the season.

Also, it seems obvious, but when there is no race at Wildcat, it's generally much quieter. Here's the Wildcat race team schedule for the rest of March. Looks like the weekend of 13/14 might be busy, but no race this upcoming weekend, as they are away:




__





						Wildcat Ski Team
					

Wildcat Ski Team




					www.wildcatskiteam.org


----------



## snoseek (Mar 2, 2021)

All this nice natural snow at Wildcat is gonna make for a quick spring if March doesn't deliver....like really quick


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2021)

snoseek said:


> All this nice natural snow at Wildcat is gonna make for a quick spring if March doesn't deliver....like really quick


You expect Wildcat to remain open into April?  I would think that Vail is closing it down the first weekend of April.  Does anyone know?  I saw that they Crotch is closing the last weekend of March.

Actually, looks like April 11th is their slated last day according to the EPIC reservation system.  At least that is the last day you can reserve.


----------



## Edd (Mar 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> You expect Wildcat to remain open into April?  I would think that Vail is closing it down the first weekend of April.  Does anyone know?  I saw that they Crotch is closing the last weekend of March.
> 
> Actually, looks like April 11th is their slated last day according to the EPIC reservation system.  At least that is the last day you can reserve.


May the Vail execs burn in hell if they close Cat on the 11th regardless of conditions.


----------



## abc (Mar 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> You expect Wildcat to remain open into April?  I would think that Vail is closing it down the first weekend of April.  Does anyone know?  I saw that they Crotch is closing the last weekend of March.
> 
> Actually, looks like April 11th is their slated last day according to the EPIC reservation system.  At least that is the last day you can reserve.





Edd said:


> May the Vail execs burn in hell if they close Cat on the 11th regardless of condition


It'll do wonders to the sale of next year's Epic pass!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2021)

Edd said:


> May the Vail execs burn in hell if they close Cat on the 11th regardless of conditions.


You would think that local management would tell them that there is a big Massachusetts holiday literally a few days later that would make for a great three-day ski weekend and lots of business.  Oh wait, I am assuming that there IS local management.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm just keeping in mind they pretty much blew 3 runs. Lynx is the only one I think they blew fairly deep. A couple rain events will get them to those few runs.


----------



## eatskisleep (Mar 2, 2021)

Saw on the wildcat snow cam today, all the chairs are still on the HSQ. Do they no longer pull them for a wind event? They used to always bring them back to the base. A day like today, puts a lot of strain on parts of the lift and could potentially blow a chair off. Guess Vail doesn’t care.


----------



## Edd (Mar 2, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366768347535331332


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Saw on the wildcat snow cam today, all the chairs are still on the HSQ. Do they no longer pull them for a wind event? They used to always bring them back to the base. A day like today, puts a lot of strain on parts of the lift and could potentially blow a chair off. Guess Vail doesn’t care.


Gotta keep those labor costs down.  It would have taken, what, a whole 30-60 mins to get the chairs off the lift?


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 2, 2021)

Ski areas always look dumb when they have an icing or wind event overnight and don't store the chairs on the parking rail.  Why have a parking rail if you never use them.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 2, 2021)

yet it seems like a lot of them don't do it.  this is just a Vail thing...


----------



## thebigo (Mar 2, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Saw on the wildcat snow cam today, all the chairs are still on the HSQ. Do they no longer pull them for a wind event? They used to always bring them back to the base. A day like today, puts a lot of strain on parts of the lift and could potentially blow a chair off. Guess Vail doesn’t care.


Up until this year, first chair and first down the lynx as fast as I could possibly ski was a regular occurrence. Most times I can remember waiting for first chair, Leo would load the chairs back on the line by hand, took about 15 - 20 minutes. Not sure about this year, first chair is not worth it when you have to listen to the kids piss and moan about the wait. 

They also used to let customers load the lift when patrol gave the thumbs up. Now they count down the seconds to 9:00 regardless of how many customers are standing in the corral.


----------



## machski (Mar 2, 2021)

Edd said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366768347535331332


You thnk that is bad, you should have seen the video one of the Cat drivers put on the SR Enthusiast Facebook page of the top of Jordan Express.  One of the chairs were doing 360's around the rope practically!!


----------



## Dickc (Mar 2, 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10207987622446054
			




  Video Machski is talking about.


----------



## Edd (Mar 2, 2021)

machski said:


> You thnk that is bad, you should have seen the video one of the Cat drivers put on the SR Enthusiast Facebook page of the top of Jordan Express.  One of the chairs were doing 360's around the rope practically!!


I’m sure you’ve seen it too, but I’ve been on the Jordan chair near the top and seen empty chairs swinging around about half that bad. Disconcerting.


----------



## slatham (Mar 2, 2021)

YEs if you have the option to take the chairs off then you should have for this wind event.

Edit: Just checked the Bromley CAM and yup chairs are off.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 2, 2021)

It just seems like a wise investment to have a parking rail for detachable lifts.  You don't need a whole barn like at Okemo and Mount Snow for their bubbles, just a simple parking rail setup.

As for Jordan, That looks crazy.  I know they hope to resolve that lifts wind hold issues and the fact that Jordan Hotel becomes inaccessible by replacing it with heavier chairs.  I think they should just build a T-Bar up from the bottom of Jordan to the Hotel, as a simpler solution.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 2, 2021)

Dickc said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10207987622446054
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's fucking nuts...


----------



## kingslug (Mar 2, 2021)

Must be great for all the stress points...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2021)

yea i cant believe that one chair didn't come off the line


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’m sure you’ve seen it too, but I’ve been on the Jordan chair near the top and seen empty chairs swinging around about half that bad. Disconcerting.


Re:  Jordan

It has been a while since I've been there, but I thought that there was a parking rail for the Jordan HSQ.

Edit--no, it does not have a parking area.


----------



## machski (Mar 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Re:  Jordan
> 
> It has been a while since I've been there, but I thought that there was a parking rail for the Jordan HSQ.
> 
> Edit--no, it does not have a parking area.


Nope, the only parking rail SR employs at any of its detachables is the Chondi at the top terminal.  Just a rail set to rack the cabins as they are the weak link in wind holds.  They then use come along straps to strap them together so they don't blow around on the rail.  They took them off late after the winds cranked up once, they dropped a cabin off the curved section of rail and I believe it got totaled.

As to barns for bubble chairs, if you want the warranty on the bubbles from the manufacturer, you will build a parking barn and house them during the offseason at a minimum.  Otherwise, the resort voids the warranty.  I believe this is true for Gondi cars too now, thus why K probably built the K1 barn for the new cabins they got for it.


----------



## eatskisleep (Mar 5, 2021)

To continue the Vail Sucks saga...


----------



## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2021)

Peak clearly didn't do shit for lift maintenance. Vail has been dealing with crappy lifts at pretty much every property they bought from them, from Crested Butte on down. That should probably be the news story but yeah sure, fuck Vail. 

Your decision point about covid was whether you showed up to ski or not, not some extended lift line time by the way. 

I do find it amusing that all of a sudden people have forgotten that Wildcat and Attitash were the red headed step child's even before Vail bought them. Wildcat is worth what, 4 million? That is chump change in the ski industry and it is worth that for a reason. The problem with Attitash and Wildcat is people think they are resorts when in reality they are rinky dink ski areas IMO.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2021)

Not sure anyone thinks Wildcat is a resort


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## PAabe (Mar 5, 2021)

"Wildcat mountain ski area" does not claim to be a resort in name but Vail's websites refer to all of their ski areas as "resorts" (including that same template which is used for Wildcat)
Places that do not have a hotel/lodging (like Roundtop, JFBB, Wildcat, etc.) have no business claiming to be resorts imo


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## xlr8r (Mar 5, 2021)

PAabe said:


> "Wildcat mountain ski area" does claim to be a resort in name but Vail's websites refer to all of their ski areas as "resorts" (including that same template which is used for Wildcat)
> Places that do not have a hotel/lodging (like Roundtop, JFBB, Wildcat, etc.) have no business claiming to be resorts imo


Yeah, it seems like everybody these days are calling ski areas, "resorts".  I agree it is only a resort if the ski area has lodging on site.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> Peak clearly didn't do shit for lift maintenance. Vail has been dealing with crappy lifts at pretty much every property they bought from them, from Crested Butte on down. That should probably be the news story but yeah sure, fuck Vail.
> 
> Your decision point about covid was whether you showed up to ski or not, not some extended lift line time by the way.
> 
> I do find it amusing that all of a sudden people have forgotten that Wildcat and Attitash were the red headed step child's even before Vail bought them. Wildcat is worth what, 4 million? That is chump change in the ski industry and it is worth that for a reason. The problem with Attitash and Wildcat is people think they are resorts when in reality they are rinky dink ski areas IMO.



I didn't realize it was Peak's responsibility to hire lifties for Vail.  

Or snowmakers, customer service reps, food service workers etc.

But you in Jackson obviously know better as to what the major problems have been for Vail I'm NH this year


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## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2021)

I stand by my statement that Attitash and Wildcat have a perception problem more than anything else. 

And where did I say Peak should hire lifties? I said Peak didn't put a penny into into their resorts, which you bitched about on this board for fucking years, but yeah, its totally Vail's fault.


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## PAabe (Mar 5, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Yeah, it seems like everybody these days are calling ski areas, "resorts".  I agree it is only a resort if the ski area has lodging on site.


Yep, I'm not even a huge fan of every place with a bit of lodging calling themselves a "ski resort."  It makes the sport of skiing look pretentious and exclusive.  Much prefer "Ski ---" or "--- Mountain/Hill" or "--- Ski Area" which seem to be increasingly uncommon.  Idk maybe I'm a bit of a hippy but I hate when the ski operations try and make it look like it is only for the rich and famous.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> I stand by my statement that Attitash and Wildcat have a perception problem more than anything else.
> 
> And where did I say Peak should hire lifties? I said Peak didn't put a penny into into their resorts, which you bitched about on this board for fucking years, but yeah, its totally Vail's fault.


you didn't but you failed to say that vail didn't hire enough people to man the place which has been the biggest concern for most people (and the yes the shitty triple at attitrash).


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## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2021)

And yet, so many people still came they had 40 minute lift lines. Same story, different year. 

Since this seems to be news to you, washed up ski bums like DHS are always going to bitch. They are a dime a dozen at any ski area. I've listened to him complain about things not being like his glory days as a shitty ski bum for 20 years. Peak, ASC, doesn't matter the owner, he knows best because he worked F&B you know and clearly knows everything about running the place. He has a long history here of doing just that. 

Peak might have hired an extra liftie or two, but they saved money in places that would kill you, like lift maintenance. I'll take the lift lines over questionable safety decisions all day, you might think otherwise. Vail and Peak don't care.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> I stand by my statement that Attitash and Wildcat have a perception problem more than anything else.
> 
> And where did I say Peak should hire lifties? I said Peak didn't put a penny into into their resorts, which you bitched about on this board for fucking years, but yeah, its totally Vail's fault.


Way over your head.

The issues in the valley this year have been primarily labor; issues unique to Vail.  Bretton Woods, Cannon, Waterville, Loon and Cranmore haven't had issues running lifts due to lack of labor.  Slower snowmaking expansion than the competition as well this year (not that Peak was great, but it was FAR worse under Vail) again because of labor.

Peak isn't who promoted an inexperienced 30 year old from a mole hill in Indiana to run Attitash.

This is the second year BTW of Vail owning Peak.  Maintenance issues fall squarely on them now.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> And yet, so many people still came they had 40 minute lift lines. Same story, different year.
> 
> Since this seems to be news to you, washed up ski bums like DHS are always going to bitch. They are a dime a dozen at any ski area. I've listened to him complain about things not being like his glory days as a shitty ski bum for 20 years. Peak, ASC, doesn't matter the owner, he knows best because he worked F&B you know and clearly knows everything about running the place. He has a long history here of doing just that.
> 
> Peak might have hired an extra liftie or two, but they saved money in places that would kill you, like lift maintenance. I'll take the lift lines over questionable safety decisions all day, you might think otherwise. Vail and Peak don't care.




Stay gold pony boy!  Still a child after all these years.


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## Mainer (Mar 5, 2021)

Peak always ran the yankee at attitash every day. On busy days they ran every lift. Vail only started running the yankee on weekends only starting In mid January. They have yet to run all their lifts this year. Also this year vail started full on snowmaking a month later this year than normal at attitash. The park at attitash used to have tons of jumps and features under peak, this year it looks like a small Connecticut ski area’s park. 0 jumps. Wildcat has barely blown any snow this year, their season started a month later than normal. After the warmth next week it will probably just be lynx again. Under peak they would try to make may, this year they will be unlikely to hit April. The bobcat just started running a couple weeks ago, first time I saw lift maintenance working On it was mid January. Wildcat has a ton more moguls then ever, usually they would blow snow and groom certain trails, this year au natural. The list goes on and on. Peak ran attitash and wc much better than vail it’s not even a debate


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2021)

But lift maintenance bro! Vail rulez at that


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## Mainer (Mar 5, 2021)

I forgot to mention lift maintenance. There was been more delayed openings at wc/attitash this year then ever before. It’s not uncommon for their lifts to open at 930 or 10 because they are performing lift maintenance. Never happened before this year.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 5, 2021)

Somehow with the Epic pass I managed to ski more vertical than ever before last season - even in a shortened season - and will ski more days at better places (barring another March shutdown of skiing) and again more vertical than ever before than ever before this seaaon. And at a really good price that will come out to about $15/day for me and less for my kids. Epic is the best thing to have happened in my 40 year skiing experience. 

And as a bonus I get to enjoy the humor value of reading everyone here post about how much this bites.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> The problem with Attitash and Wildcat is *people think they are resorts* when in reality they are rinky dink ski areas IMO.


"People"? That's people in Colorado, right? Vail just flip a switch and start calling them "resorts"! When in the past, these were only ski mountains, which Vail paid chum change for and "upgraded" into resorts with a flick of a pen!

That is precisely the problem with Vail's northeast mountains. Half of the latest purchase were rinky-ding local mountains. What does Vail do with them? They can't easily be expanded on with real estate to become shining destination resorts. So let's run them with as few staff as possible, with as little snow making as possible, with as short a season as possible... 

But yeah, it's the local's fault their day tripping mountains is now a step child of Vail that are left to starve. They even moan about the poor treatment by Vail. Yeah, it's all the local's fault. Vail did it right by ignoring them...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Somehow with the Epic pass I managed to ski more vertical than ever before last season - even in a shortened season - and will ski more days at better places (barring another March shutdown of skiing) and again more vertical than ever before than ever before this seaaon. And at a really good price that will come out to about $15/day for me and less for my kids. Epic is the best thing to have happened in my 40 year skiing experience.
> 
> And as a bonus I get to enjoy the humor value of reading everyone here post about how much this bites.


Where are you skiing?  Weekdays?


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Where are you skiing?  Weekdays?


Weekends and Holidays at every Eastern Epic place except the NH ones (hit the NH ones last year - but have skipped them this year based on issues folks have identified here).

Yeah there are big lines at the most popular lifts at peak times - but if I only hit those at the very beginning and very end of the days and otherwise stick to the less popular lifts it is pretty easy to avoid any bad lines.

I've gotten 26 days in so far with about 370k vertical and expect to have about 40 days and well over 500k vertical in by the time I return from Vail on April 9. I've skied lots of fresh snow - probably more than in the NE any other winter I can recall - with beautiful coverage in bumps and trees. I'm sure many of you have skied a lot more than me as I work a 9-5 job and have kids (who also ski with me a little more than half the time), but this has sure been a winning winter by my standards and skiing Epic mountains has been the unquestioned highlight of my last 3.5 months.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2021)

As much as I dislike long lines, I dislike crowds on the slope even more.

In that regard, that's the silver lining of this year. The lift line maybe long, but I don't have to dodge people as I used to. I pretty much have the run to myself most of the time. Granted, I've only skied midweek, not during holiday time. Clearly, not filling the chair leaves the slopes much emptier. But the wait on the lift line can be long at times. 

I didn't expect much this season, I wasn't too disappointed. (nor did it exceed that rock bottom expectation either)

I'm not much of a fan of Vail's portfolio in the east. But there're so many mountains, somehow I can find one I can ski for a bit before getting bored or irritated by the crowds. 2 year's of Epic in a row, I'm ready to change. Before I become a permanent Vail hater for the rest of my life!  

After all, they do have some nicer mountains out west, that I still want to ski once in a while.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Weekends and Holidays at every Eastern Epic place except the NH ones (hit the NH ones last year - but have skipped them this year based on issues folks have identified here).
> 
> Yeah there are big lines at the most popular lifts at peak times - but if I only hit those at the very beginning and very end of the days and otherwise stick to the less popular lifts it is pretty easy to avoid any bad lines.
> 
> I've gotten 26 days in so far with about 370k vertical and expect to have about 40 days and well over 500k vertical in by the time I return from Vail on April 9. I've skied lots of fresh snow - probably more than in the NE any other winter I can recall - with beautiful coverage in bumps and trees. I'm sure many of you have skied a lot more than me as I work a 9-5 job and have kids (who also ski with me a little more than half the time), but this has sure been a winning winter by my standards and skiing Epic mountains has been the unquestioned highlight of my last 3.5 months.


So Stowe, Okemo, Snow, Hunter it sounds like.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 5, 2021)

Mostly, but also have been fewer times to Jack Frost, Round Top, Liberty and Whitetail - as I live in NJ


thetrailboss said:


> So Stowe, Okemo, Snow, Hunter it sounds like.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 5, 2021)

Most frustrating day line wise was my first day at Jack Frost, when not all their lifts were open. As there was no way to escape lines that day and a long line for a slow lift for a short non challenging trail was beyond frustrating. That was the only day I was pissed about this year.


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## ctdubl07 (Mar 6, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Weekends and Holidays at every Eastern Epic place except the NH ones (hit the NH ones last year - but have skipped them this year based on issues folks have identified here).
> 
> Yeah there are big lines at the most popular lifts at peak times - but if I only hit those at the very beginning and very end of the days and otherwise stick to the less popular lifts it is pretty easy to avoid any bad lines.
> 
> I've gotten 26 days in so far with about 370k vertical and expect to have about 40 days and well over 500k vertical in by the time I return from Vail on April 9. I've skied lots of fresh snow - probably more than in the NE any other winter I can recall - with beautiful coverage in bumps and trees. I'm sure many of you have skied a lot more than me as I work a 9-5 job and have kids (who also ski with me a little more than half the time), but this has sure been a winning winter by my standards and skiing Epic mountains has been the unquestioned highlight of my last 3.5 months.


I'm with you man, no complaints here. 

We had all the access and vert our family of 6 needed and we didn't travel around.

Just booked April 1-6 to Vail and can't wait, flights to EGE are near "free" and snow amounts acceptable. We were supposed to hit Heavenly for Feb break but my wife was going to stir crazy so we got some sun instead.

I realize that I live on a Mtn which affords is easy access...if I see a line that looks horrible or the weather sucks, I stay in and do something else so my scenario is different than for those where the logistics challenges of this season played a big part in their experiences and satisfaction.

But I have zero complaints with Vail...we chose to make what we can out of an imperfect season and situation rather than fight it.


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## jaytrem (Mar 6, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> Peak clearly didn't do shit for lift maintenance. Vail has been dealing with crappy lifts at pretty much every property they bought from them, from Crested Butte on down.


Not the best choice for an example, since Peak never owned CB.


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## FBGM (Mar 6, 2021)

Park City unionized ski patrollers left off bonus program at seasons end.

Think about that when deciding what pass to buy. The guys and girls busting their ass get shafted with bonus because they unionized.

Fuck Vail


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## snoseek (Mar 6, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Park City unionized ski patrollers left off bonus program at seasons end.
> 
> Think about that when deciding what pass to buy. The guys and girls busting their ass get shafted with bonus because they unionized.
> 
> Fuck Vail


I wonder how many of them move on over the summer. That's an awfully big area to run short on patrol and those guys do arguably the most important job out there.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 6, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Park City unionized ski patrollers left off bonus program at seasons end.
> 
> Think about that when deciding what pass to buy. The guys and girls busting their ass get shafted with bonus because they unionized.
> 
> Fuck Vail


One of the few mountain jobs that cant be replaced with foreigners.  So they just do the next best thing as retribution


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## 2Planker (Mar 6, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Park City unionized ski patrollers left off bonus program at seasons end.
> 
> Think about that when deciding what pass to buy. The guys and girls busting their ass get shafted with bonus because they unionized.
> 
> Fuck Vail


We thought of unionizing 10-12 years ago @ SR, when Boyne cuts our benefits, and added 25% more days required to earn your pass.
Twenty five, 10 hour days for a $750 pass.  Works out to $3/hour


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## thebigo (Mar 9, 2021)

> We're excited to announce the extension of the 2020/21 ski and ride season. It's our way of saying thank you to guests and pass holders for their continued support, following our safety protocols and helping us open and stay open this season. Wildcat will remain open until 4/18.



I dont know where they are going to get the snow but a step in the right direction.


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## ss20 (Mar 9, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I dont know where they are going to get the snow but a step in the right direction.



Kudos to Vail for doing this.  I don't like Vail, but it's a positive move....can't wait to see how some will spin this to fit the "Evil Empire" mentality.


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## Smellytele (Mar 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Kudos to Vail for doing this.  I don't like Vail, but it's a positive move....can't wait to see how some will spin this to fit the "Evil Empire" mentality.


They will say they didn’t blow enough snow and now have to ski with multiple bare spots.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Kudos to Vail for doing this.  I don't like Vail, but it's a positive move....can't wait to see how some will spin this to fit the "Evil Empire" mentality.



It really was an obvious move to make.    Think of how bad it would have looked if they closed early after the debacle they had at many eastern resorts this winter and then put their epic passes on sale and started asking for more of peoples money.


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## 2Planker (Mar 9, 2021)

As far as The Cat goes, April 18 IS early. They've been known to go till May, though not since 2015. But usually they're the last in NH


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## ss20 (Mar 9, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> It really was an obvious move to make.    Think of how bad it would have looked if they closed early after the debacle they had at many eastern resorts this winter and then put their epic passes on sale and started asking for more of peoples money.



It seems Wildcat and Attitash are the ones with major problems.  Everyone else did fine save for some isolated incidences as far as I know.


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## abc (Mar 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It seems Wildcat and Attitash are the ones with major problems.  Everyone else did fine save for some isolated incidences as far as I know.


You forgot Hunter.

(And I don't know about other Vail mountains further south)


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## jaytrem (Mar 9, 2021)

abc said:


> You forgot Hunter.
> 
> (And I don't know about other Vail mountains further south)


Whitetail was great yesterday.  Everything seemed to be running smooth and they had a boat load of snow.  No problem using my old Peak Dining Card or Peak gift card.  They seem to have a history of closing a little early, Vail might actually be an improvement in that department for them.  It remains to be seen.  I get the feeling Snow Time took good care of their stuff, so Peak might not have a enough time to effect things either way.


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## ss20 (Mar 9, 2021)

abc said:


> You forgot Hunter.
> 
> (And I don't know about other Vail mountains further south)



What happened at Hunter?  Just the ski patrol shutdown for a few days?


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## abc (Mar 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> What happened at Hunter?  Just the ski patrol shutdown for a few days?


They didn't make much snow on Hunter West (the advance terrain), or north.

(this may get a pass for mountains further north, where snow fall is "normally" abundant. But for the Cats, snowmaking is crucial. And Hunter "used to be" the king of snowmaking of the Cats)

Due to VT travel restriction, Hunter got a lot more skier visit, by the lower Hudson skiers. With Hunter west and north largely out of action, the terrain is significantly reduced. I don't know if they adjusted the capacity accordingly or not. But either way, the result is both unavailable reservation AND crowds.


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## ss20 (Mar 9, 2021)

abc said:


> They didn't make much snow on Hunter West (the advance terrain), or north.
> 
> (this may get a pass for mountains further north, where snow fall is "normally" abundant. But for the Cats, snowmaking is crucial. And Hunter "used to be" the king of snowmaking of the Cats)
> 
> Due to VT travel restriction, Hunter got a lot more skier visit, by the lower Hudson skiers. With Hunter west and north largely out of action, the terrain is significantly reduced. I don't know if they adjusted the capacity accordingly or not. But either way, the result is both unavailable reservation AND crowds.



Ehhh... no one pushed hard with snowmaking, and that's not specific to Vail.  Killington didn't blow on Conclusion and not on Ovation til mid-February.  We'll add Vertigo in that list too but they did not blow on that last year either for unknown reasons.  Stratton had not blown on a number of trails in the Sunbowl last I was there in mid-February.  Sunday River left a few trails unblown too iirc.


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## RichT (Mar 9, 2021)

Bell and Windham were making snow last week while at Hunter they were rolling up the hoses...........


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 9, 2021)

abc said:


> They didn't make much snow on Hunter West (the advance terrain), or north.
> 
> (this may get a pass for mountains further north, where snow fall is "normally" abundant. But for the Cats, snowmaking is crucial. And Hunter "used to be" the king of snowmaking of the Cats)
> 
> Due to VT travel restriction, Hunter got a lot more skier visit, by the lower Hudson skiers. With Hunter west and north largely out of action, the terrain is significantly reduced. I don't know if they adjusted the capacity accordingly or not. But either way, the result is both unavailable reservation AND crowds.


Haven't had a complaint with Hunter the 9 days I have skied there this year - including November opening. One weekend they had more terrain open than I believe the ever have had open any previous year (it was impossible before they added North and glades). And lines have not been bad if you only ride KF lift other than early and late.

Ok one complaint - they should trim the brush on Westway


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## skiur (Mar 9, 2021)

I didn't ski hunter this year but I remember a lot of bitching about hunter on here so they couldn't have done that good of a job......oh wait.... This is alpinezone.....may have been a decent year there!


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## abc (Mar 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Ehhh... no one pushed hard with snowmaking, and that's not specific to Vail.  Killington didn't blow on Conclusion and not on Ovation til mid-February.  We'll add Vertigo in that list too but they did not blow on that last year either for unknown reasons.  Stratton had not blown on a number of trails in the Sunbowl last I was there in mid-February.  Sunday River left a few trails unblown too iirc.


But it isn't just a few trials. Unlike K in VT or Sunday River in ME, mountains in the Cats NEEDS snowmaking. Lot of snowmaking.

Put that next to the zero snowmaking of Wildcat and Attitash, it's pretty obvious Vail doesn't have a clue on how to run northeast mountains. Or worse, they know how it needs to be run but decided against it for the sake of saving pennies.

It's going to come back and haunt them. All those who couldn't get reservation at Hunter, or show up only with half the terrain open, probably won't be renewing their Epic pass.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 9, 2021)

abc said:


> But it isn't just a few trials. Unlike K in VT or Sunday River in ME, mountains in the Cats NEEDS snowmaking. Lot of snowmaking.
> 
> Put that next to the zero snowmaking of Wildcat and Attitash, it's pretty obvious Vail doesn't have a clue on how to run northeast mountains. Or worse, they know how it needs to be run but decided against it for the sake of saving pennies.
> 
> It's going to come back and haunt them. All those who couldn't get reservation at Hunter, or show up only with half the terrain open, probably won't be renewing their Epic pass.


Mid March and Hunter is all open other than natural snow only trails and glades. And being sold out to capacity on weekends shows they are doing something right, not wrong.


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## abc (Mar 9, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> being sold out to capacity on weekends shows they are doing something right, not wrong.


I bet to differ.

The sold out capacity is not Vail's doing "right". It's due to the travel restriction of VT. There're no other Vail mountains south of VT till you go all the way to Pennsylvania! No matter how "wrong" they do it, it would have been sold out regardless.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 9, 2021)

Can't say I have noticed the lines at Hunter being worse than those at Snow or Okemo.

They all have ridiculous weekend lines at the high speed prominent lifts from the main base - and pretty manageable lines at less prominent lifts.

Have never had a problem getting reservations for any of them either - by consistently reserving the max next 7 weekend/holiday days going forward - doing an 8th right after using the first.

Looks like I will get 40+ days and 550k+ vertical in by end of season on a pass that cost me like $550. That's a dollar per thousand foot vertical run.  A steal.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 10, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Ehhh... no one pushed hard with snowmaking, and that's not specific to Vail.  Killington didn't blow on Conclusion and not on Ovation til mid-February.  We'll add Vertigo in that list too but they did not blow on that last year either for unknown reasons.  Stratton had not blown on a number of trails in the Sunbowl last I was there in mid-February.  Sunday River left a few trails unblown too iirc.


The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.

I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.


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## machski (Mar 10, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> Peak clearly didn't do shit for lift maintenance. Vail has been dealing with crappy lifts at pretty much every property they bought from them, from Crested Butte on down. That should probably be the news story but yeah sure, fuck Vail.
> 
> Your decision point about covid was whether you showed up to ski or not, not some extended lift line time by the way.
> 
> I do find it amusing that all of a sudden people have forgotten that Wildcat and Attitash were the red headed step child's even before Vail bought them. Wildcat is worth what, 4 million? That is chump change in the ski industry and it is worth that for a reason. The problem with Attitash and Wildcat is people think they are resorts when in reality they are rinky dink ski areas IMO.


Crested Butte wasn't owned or operated by Peak, but ok.


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## machski (Mar 10, 2021)

I'd have to add to that list


Andrew B. said:


> The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
> The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.
> 
> I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.





Andrew B. said:


> The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
> The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.
> 
> I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.


I'd have to add Eureka to your list.  Sure, for a while in the 2010's they skipped it but the last few years they have been sure to hit it.  Looked to be in the plans this season since they set up guns and pulled them out.  Then we got decent snow early February and seemed to can the plans for it.  Has skied well, but I think we and they will be missing the added base Snowmaking would have provided.  That run is a blast in the spring and with just natural cover, it won't last long unless ma nature changes her tune later this month.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 10, 2021)

machski said:


> I'd have to add to that list
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have to add Eureka to your list.  Sure, for a while in the 2010's they skipped it but the last few years they have been sure to hit it.  Looked to be in the plans this season since they set up guns and pulled them out.  Then we got decent snow early February and seemed to can the plans for it.  Has skied well, but I think we and they will be missing the added base Snowmaking would have provided.  That run is a blast in the spring and with just natural cover, it won't last long unless ma nature changes her tune later this month.


They did blew quantum leap which is definitely hit or miss with snowmaking
Overall I think they hit as many trails as normal with maybe a little less depth


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 10, 2021)

This changes everything...

Every Vail Twitter account sent out the same exact tweet down to the emojis...

Literally no soul...


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 10, 2021)

Nice that it makes clear that the passes are being announced then - which email remained coy on


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## Mum skier (Mar 10, 2021)

Two years in a row we had a nice surprise with Epic. First year we bought they had just made an agreement with Okemo/Sunape/CB to allow Epic pass holders 5 days (or something like that). But by the time the season had started Vail had bought them out so without planning it we suddenly had a season pass for Okemo and Sunapee which at the time were a couple of our favorites. Then the next year (again after we had already committed) they bought Peaks which brought Mt Snow and the other NH resorts in.  Now Covid messed up last year end of season and I know the NH resorts have been overlooked by Vail this year (well not Sunapee that’s been a pretty normal season), but it was still a bunch more areas that we were not expecting.
so really hoping there might be a nice new surprise in there for next season.


----------



## McFatt (Mar 11, 2021)

Epic Pass Save the Date for pass sales at the end of March with NO mention of cost is complete BS. Almost all the other competitor passes are on sale now and IMO are priced high. I bet the Epic Pass comes in a $949 this year for unlimited. Who wants to take the over/under?


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.


----------



## Edd (Mar 11, 2021)

I haven’t decided on what to do next year but it’s difficult to walk away from Wildcat with the Veteran Pass option. I was discussing it with a few friends yesterday and buying both Epic and Ikon is on the table.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.



Or a sign of "we don't have our shit together for some reason and don't have all the details worked out yet."


----------



## abc (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.


Disagree slightly.

There may not be price increase from other passes, some of them comes with spring privileges that can be used immediately. 

I think Vail is only preaching to the choir at this point. 

Those who plan to abandon Epic Pass won’t wait. Those who didn’t buy this year will be attracted to spring benefits of passes that offers it. They aren’t going to wait either. 

Those whose home mountain is owned by Vail had no choice but to wait. 

We can pretty much see what’s coming. There will be no significant credit/discount for current pass holders. The price will likely very similar to last season. So no breath holding till Vail’s announcement.


----------



## abc (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.





cdskier said:


> Or a sign of "we don't have our shit together for some reason and don't have all the details worked out yet."


I agree with the latter. 

Less of a "show of confidence". More a case of "let's wait and see what others do" and follow the leader.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

I will wait and see myself whether to renew. Ikon isn't offering any Spring benefits I could use before March 23. Also considering ORDA - so it does mean forgoing using their pass March 20-21. But I am good with Epic options for that weekend.

Honestly the biggest thing that would sway me to renew Epic is if they added some additional appealing options in northeast / mid Atlantic.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

I don't think there is really anything left to take over in the mid-Atlantic except Denton Hill or maybe Blue Knob (and why would vail want either of those, they suffer from being in the middle of nowhere).  Everything else seems to be under sound management or otherwise has already been gobbled up by somebody.

Even then, Vail already has 2 poconos hills and 3 hills for Baltimore/DC/noVA/sePA market.  I can't think of anywhere that fits the Vail/Ikon mold around here that needs any help selling tickets/passes or needs infrastructure investment.

Vail has their hands full as it is with the massive takeover of Peak resorts.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

They had discussions about buying Blue a year or two ago. If they added that - or Camelback or Montage - I would stick with them. 

PA options are what made them more appealing than Ikon or ORDA for me. Prob with their PA options is they are all pretty weak - other than Whitetail - but that's further than Hunter for me (central NJ).


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

I am surprised to hear Blue had discussions about selling although I have heard the current owner does not seem to be quite as interested in skiing as the previous owner.  They are packed all the time, sell plenty of tickets, and plenty of passes.  They are the closest big hill to much of PA, NJ, and DE.  They seem to make plenty of money, their lift infrastructure is fine and pretty much maxed out, and they have no trouble blowing massive amounts of snow and opening up fast every year.  I don't see how being on a mega pass could generate more income at Blue.

Same goes for Mountain Creek and Bear Creek.  Similar situation with Camelback except they must make a killing with the real estate and waterpark also.  Anybody that charges as much as they do and still is a zoo of crowds has to be doing fine.

Montage is weird.  At one time it was owned by the city of Scranton and their snowmaking pond is the municipal water supply.  A lot of their revenue must come from the year round events that they host, as well as the water park.  No lodging on site.  Lifts are old but there has been investment into the lodges and stuff, and there isn't really any obvious upgrades to be made to the lift infrastructure given the weird terrain.  I just can't really see them going onto Epic seeing as Vail already owns JFBB. and it doesn't seem classy enough to be on Ikon.

Elk owner is interesting, wants the place to look like vermont 50 years ago, I think he owns much of the surrounding land and the place is in the middle of nowhere.  He is old but again I would be very surprised to see Elk end up with Epic/Ikon

Shawnee, Spring Mountain, and Campgaw do not attract the kind of person that buys Epic/Ikon passes.

Timberline has new owner, new investment, and seems to be doing fantastic.  Canaan Valley is owned by the state.  Contract to operate Laurel Mountain from the state was bought by Nutting to go with 7springs/hidden valley and they all seem to be doing great.  I don't know enough to comment about Massanutten or Bryce or Wisp or other small north/west PA/southern NY places

Like I said, Blue Knob seems cash strapped and the state of PA is looking for an operator for Denton Hill but everywhere else seems to be doing fine and seems to be managed fine.  Wow this is a wall of text but that's my take on the mid Atlantic ski industry and why I would be surprised to see Vail or Ikon will be expanding around here any time soon.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

I like Montage enough that they could likely sway me to Epic, Ikon or Indy. Most interesting pod of terrain within 2:15 of me on their North Face and almost never a crowd there.

Replacing their Long Haul lift (only one that serves close to their full vertical) with a reliable high speed lift would seriously boost their ranking in NEPA.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

Vail isn't adding any new mountains...  They need to figure out how to deal with 22 Peak Resorts mountains in a non-pandemic scenario.   they didn't even run summer operations at roundtop last year.  Apparently their summer camps and other things they do are quite profitable.  So they basically have to figure out how all of these little pieces work and how they can assimilate them into "VAIL"

I just want to know what the price is.  I have to buy epic becasue that is what is 4 miles from where I type this.  The question for me is do I also buy an Ikon base?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Replacing their Long Haul lift (only one that serves close to their full vertical) with a reliable high speed lift would seriously boost their ranking in NEPA.



that lift ride is so F'n long...


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that lift ride is so F'n long...


People who like to drink and ski (I don't) describe it as a 2 beer ride. It feels like 20 minutes.


jimmywilson69 said:


> Vail isn't adding any new mountains...  They need to figure out how to deal with 22 Peak Resorts mountains in a non-pandemic scenario.   they didn't even run summer operations at roundtop last year.  Apparently their summer camps and other things they do are quite profitable.  So they basically have to figure out how all of these little pieces work and how they can assimilate them into "VAIL"
> 
> I just want to know what the price is.  I have to buy epic becasue that is what is 4 miles from where I type this.  The question for me is do I also buy an Ikon base?


Hard to figure out what their alleged game changer is if they don't buy something. Most likely just marketing BS.


----------



## abc (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> People who like to drink and ski (I don't) describe it as a 2 beer ride.
> 
> Hard to figure out what their alleged game changer is if they don't buy something. Most likely just marketing BS.


what game changer?


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

abc said:


> what game changer?


Their "save the date" announcement alleges "This Changes Everything"


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I don't know anything about Massanutten or Bryce.


When I pulled up to Bryce a bit after noon Sunday, cars were parked all over the place.  Was a bit of a shock after leaving a very quiet Homestead.  Good amount of people were already leaving, so I got a good spot and the lift lines quickly got smaller and smaller.  Definitely seems to be doing some booming business though.

Massanuttin also had a good crowd when I was there.  Was there on a Monday evening.  No lines to speak of, but just about every chair had a butt in it.  There were a few empties on the summit lift.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I like Montage enough that they could likely sway me to Epic, Ikon or Indy. Most interesting pod of terrain within 2:15 of me on their North Face and almost never a crowd there.
> 
> Replacing their Long Haul lift (only one that serves close to their full vertical) with a reliable high speed lift would seriously boost their ranking in NEPA.


I too would love to see Long Haul lift replaced, however, this has been much discussed on other forums.   Issue is that Long Haul lift can only be reached by black runs, and Montage has already pretty much expanded their terrain as much as they can.  There are really only 2 ways down from the top to bottom of Long Haul, which are the last trails to open in a given year.  It would be hard to generate the kind of traffic to justify a detachable lift in that location even if they somehow figured how to cut a blue to the bottom of long haul, and the maitenance on a detachable could very well put Montage under yet again.  As it is Long Haul is rarely run and rarely needed except on weekends.

Montage is just weird.  Best I can see happening is Long Haul getting a loading carpet and speed cranked up like the Greek Peak "express" lift, but even then, you have a 1 mile long lift line (longest in PA allegedly) that isn't very steep.


----------



## abc (Mar 11, 2021)

Strange. Even though I'm a Epic pass holder, I receive no e-mail from Vail


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I too would love to see Long Haul lift replaced, however, this has been much discussed on other forums.   Issue is that Long Haul lift can only be reached by black runs, and Montage has already pretty much expanded their terrain as much as they can.  There are really only 2 ways down from the top to bottom of Long Haul, which are the last trails to open in a given year.  It would be hard to generate the kind of traffic to justify a detachable lift in that location even if they somehow figured how to cut a blue to the bottom of long haul, and the maitenance on a detachable could very well put Montage under yet again.  As it is Long Haul is rarely run and rarely needed except on weekends.
> 
> Montage is just weird.  Best I can see happening is Long Haul getting a loading carpet and speed cranked up like the Greek Peak "express" lift, but even they, you have a 1 mile long lift line (longest in PA allegedly) that isn't very steep.


My daughters and I have started counting chairs on lifts and comparing. Slow lifts always have the most chairs. Highest count we have seen yet is Sundance at Mt Snow (208). Long Haul could be a contender though.

I doubt the steepness of the blacks going to Long Haul deter many. They easily could be called blues and most of their blues really should be called green. Their double blacks are at least (by PA standards) legit.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> My daughters and I have started counting chairs on lifts and comparing. Slow lifts always have the most chairs. Highest count we have seen yet is Sundance at Mt Snow (208). Long Haul could be a contender though.
> 
> I doubt the steepness of the blacks going to Long Haul deter many. They easily could be called blues and most of their blues really should be called green. Their double blacks are at least (by PA standards) legit.


So I was snowboarding at Montage with a less skilled skiier friend (because they have that $40 ski for all which includes rentals).  Those blacks could almost be blues except the last drop right by the long haul lift is definitely way steeper than any of the blues at montage or even in PA except maybe the very top of Minuteman at Roundtop.  I really was paying quite a bit of attention to the slope given the snowboard and ice that day, and we fell down numerous time on that bit, even accidentally slid the whole way down on the bum haha.  Calling that a blue to entice people down to a high speed lift could cause some carnage with the general skiing NJ/PA population.

I would love to see lift upgrades at Montage but really am not sure what could reasonably be done other than just cranking the speed up on Long Haul and Phoebe snow and hoping people can load them alright

Hair brained idea, replace Long Haul with detachable Poma pulls, probably could go faster than the current chair and you get to ski 1 mile both up and down.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> So I was snowboarding at Montage with a less skilled skiier friend (because they have that $40 ski for all which includes rentals).  Those blacks could almost be blues except the last drop right by the long haul lift is definitely way steeper than any of the blues at montage or even in PA except maybe the very top of Minuteman at Roundtop.  I really was paying quite a bit of attention to the slope given the snowboard and ice that day, and we fell down numerous time on that bit, even accidentally slid the whole way down on the bum haha.  Calling that a blue to entice people down to a high speed lift could cause some carnage with the general skiing NJ/PA population.
> 
> I would love to see lift upgrades at Montage but really am not sure what could reasonably be done other than just cranking the speed up on Long Haul and Phoebe snow and hoping people can load them alright
> 
> Hair brained idea, replace Long Haul with detachable Poma pulls, probably could go faster than the current chair and you get to ski 1 mile both up and down.


I think Switchback or Dreamweaver at Blue could have equivalent steep. But it is way steeper than other Montage blues. You need the wind at your back on some of them.


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## Mum skier (Mar 11, 2021)

abc said:


> Strange. Even though I'm a Epic pass holder, I receive no e-mail from Vail


That’s because they are tracking your posts on AZ and have removed you from their supporters list!


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## JimG. (Mar 11, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> That’s because they are tracking your posts on AZ and have removed you from their supporters list!


You beat me to that post!


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

my email came at 5:38 yesterday and was in my spam folder.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2021)

My only curiosity is what they mean by "Game Changer". 

Not buying Epic next year.  Just curious what that means


----------



## thebigo (Mar 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that lift ride is so F'n long...


Just looked up the long haul on lift blog. It is a quarter mile shorter than the summit triple at attitash.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2021)

Must be the longest lift in PA then


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

I guess not to be outdone by Vail's soulless media blast yesterday.  My Twitter feed is now filled with texts from Ikon affiliated resorts with the the exact same language and corny video...


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

Route 66 at Blue Knob is 200' longer at 4900'.  That too is a slow ass, old double.

Apparently before last season they rebuilt the motor on Long Haul at Montage and cut the time down by a few minutes...


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## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Route 66 at Blue Knob is 200' longer at 4900'.  That too is a slow ass, old double.
> 
> Apparently before last season they rebuilt the motor on Long Haul at Montage and cut the time down by a few minutes...


There is a comment on there questioning how route 66 is 4900' if high hopes is listed as 4160' when they are parallel.  long haul listed as 4730'
Oh well must be a pretty close race for slowest ass lift in PA

I will say, we were at Montage the one time this year, we were the only ones on the Long Haul lift and my friend mentioned to the lift operator that it would be cool to see what the top speed is and I can't say for sure but it did seem like we were moving a bit faster that time...


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> There is a comment on there questioning how route 66 is 4900' if high hopes is listed as 4160' when they are parallel.  long haul listed as 4730'
> Oh well must be a pretty close race for slowest ass lift in PA
> 
> I will say, we were at Montage the one time this year, we were the only ones on the Long Haul lift and my friend mentioned to the lift operator that it would be cool to see what the top speed is and I can't say for sure but it did seem like we were moving a bit faster that time...


I don't rule out that the main lift at Liberty could be  longer duration trip though it is definitely shorter. I'm pretty sure I could sidestep up the mountain faster than that thing moves.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

that lift at liberty is slow but not as slow as either long haul or rt 66.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 11, 2021)

I'm guessing Vail is going to introduce something that makes the pass seem cheaper, but also makes it more difficult to use.  They probably are looking at ways to stop the overcrowding without losing the revenue.  Might become more like Ikon with most resorts only getting 5 or 7 days each.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

Actually looks like Beginner's triple at Blue Knob used to be by far the longest in the state - used to go all the way down to the condos 5,600 ft.

Blue Knob really needs some love, hopefully the new owners can at least continue to improve snowmaking.
Unfortunately even Peter Graves (Captain Clarence Ober, over, roger roger) could not generate enough interest for significant terrain expansion and lasting capital improvements at PA's highest skiiable mountain: 



 is quite the video

Just found this video when looking for the other one, apparently they had a stellar year which is finally some good news for them


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

and that will be a straight up Fail.  

they own all of these mountains, so they have to do some sort of unlimited access


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Just found this video when looking for the other one, apparently they had a stellar year which is finally some good news for them


They had a terrible year to start.  They were only offering $8/hr for snowmakers and couldn't find anyone.  they like many other mountains in the east were bailed out by a snow and cold February.  In January my buddy who has a pass there said never again.  By the end of February he changed his tune.

It has some legit steep terrain.  When the snow is good, its a great mountain to ski.  Its not close enough to a lot of people and the more glitz and glamour is about an hour west at 7s Springs where the skiing is not as technical or as much vertical.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

Kind of doubt I will ever make it to Blue Knob unless I have some reason to be in that area. It's about 30 min closer to me (Princeton area) than Mt Snow and 75 min further than Hunter.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

yeah if you are in NJ you shouldn't even be coming to my area


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah if you are in NJ you shouldn't even be coming to my area


Only Epic got me there - sometimes Hunter is too far or too cold and Frost gets dull and crowded. And I've avoided paying to ski non Epic places.

Once was enough for Liberty though - gave it a shot to break up drive on my way home from Whitetail


----------



## cdskier (Mar 11, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I'm guessing Vail is going to introduce something that makes the pass seem cheaper, but also makes it more difficult to use.  They probably are looking at ways to stop the overcrowding without losing the revenue.  Might become more like Ikon with most resorts only getting 5 or 7 days each.


That really doesn't make much sense. Adding limits or restrictions wouldn't be something to hype up by saying "This changes everything". As for Ikon, most of the resorts owned by Alterra are unlimited. It is mainly the partner resorts that have the 5/7 day limit which makes complete sense. For Epic as most of the resorts on the pass are owned by Vail, the 5/7 day limit on them wouldn't make a whole lot of sense unless they also create an additional tier in their pass strategy or something like that.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

It could be adding limited days at partner resorts


cdskier said:


> That really doesn't make much sense. Adding limits or restrictions wouldn't be something to hype up by saying "This changes everything". As for Ikon, most of the resorts owned by Alterra are unlimited. It is mainly the partner resorts that have the 5/7 day limit which makes complete sense. For Epic as most of the resorts on the pass are owned by Vail, the 5/7 day limit on them wouldn't make a whole lot of sense unless they also create an additional tier in their pass strategy or something like that.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 11, 2021)

If you do go to Blue Knob you better...


----------



## PAabe (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Only Epic got me there - sometimes Hunter is too far or too cold and Frost gets dull and crowded. And I've avoided paying to ski non Epic places.
> 
> Once was enough for Liberty though - gave it a shot to break up drive on my way home from Whitetail


If you ever end up with Indy Pass, Blue Knob is currently on it, could just maybe be worth it if everything is miraculously open.  You even could do the Indy Pass Southern Skiing Hill Billy Tour all the way to Tennessee.  Laurel Mountain worth checking out if there was a snow dump also if you find yourself in the area

Also Roundtop has far better terrain than Liberty imo


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> If you ever end up with Indy Pass, Blue Knob is currently on it, could just maybe be worth it if everything is miraculously open.  You even could do the Indy Pass Southern Skiing Tour all the way to Tennessee.  Laurel Mountain worth checking out if there was a snow dump also if you find yourself in the area
> 
> Also Roundtop has far better terrain than Liberty imo


Yeah I have enjoyed both Roundtop and Whitetail. First Feb weekend I did Roundtop Sat and Whitetail Sun then it was snowing too bad to get home so I stayed over and skied Liberty on my way home Monday.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> You even could do the Indy Pass Southern Skiing Tour all the way to Tennessee.



Only a complete idiot would do that.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 11, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Yeah I have enjoyed both Roundtop and Whitetail.



Kinda tempted to go back to Whitetail this weekend.  Bumps should be real nice again.  Much softer than things further north.  I also enjoy how the trails there are mostly top to bottom, not a lot of intersections.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 11, 2021)

I haven't looked yet, but I bet Whitetail is melting out super fast.  Its 75 and sunny here today.  With its east facing aspect it goes fast this time of year.  I am really missing the spring corn harvest  that is for sure...


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I haven't looked yet, but I bet Whitetail is melting out super fast.  Its 75 and sunny here today.  With its east facing aspect it goes fast this time of year.  I am really missing the spring corn harvest  that is for sure...


Wow, you're right.  Just checked the cams.  They lost a lot since Monday.  They might have to move some moguls around soon, but should be okay for the weekend.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 11, 2021)

Scheduled to be at WT this weekend as I thought they would avoid the freeze/thaw cycle Hunter is getting this week. But looking at bare spots emerging on WT Webcams today I am keeping my eye on Hunter to see if reservations open up.

They will need to do some grooming on lower Exhibition to keep it passable.


----------



## eatskisleep (Mar 11, 2021)

MTN stock is up to $338 after hours. Insane.


----------



## machski (Mar 11, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> They did blew quantum leap which is definitely hit or miss with snowmaking
> Overall I think they hit as many trails as normal with maybe a little less depth


It seems the last few seasons they have made a better effort again to hit every Snowmaking trail.  I seem to think Quantum has been hit the last two years as well, but yes previously it got passed over.


----------



## faceplant (Mar 12, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> MTN stock is up to $338 after hours. Insane.


 
 whats the difference between a pizza and  vail instructors ...


----------



## FBGM (Mar 12, 2021)

Vail to the moon. Oh wait....


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Vail to the moon. Oh wait....



gme is at $290


----------



## FBGM (Mar 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> gme is at $290
> 
> View attachment 50877


Kids living in their moms basements that invest all $2000 of their life savings still saying HOLD!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 12, 2021)

i'm in at $60. i'm chillen.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm in at $60. i'm chillen.


In at 35 in 2009


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2021)

2Planker said:


> In at 35 in 2009



just to be clear, i'm talkin about gamestop, not vail. i dont care if vail is a great stock, i dont support the company

if you are in gme at 35, mazel to you


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 17, 2021)

pretty big article about vail resorts and the covid season 

this jumped out at me as potentially nefarious - 
"Another person I talked to, whose job at Vail Resorts involves data collection, told me there’s a lot of good that can come from the reservations system, and it’s unlikely Vail will stop using it in the years to come.

This person did not want to be interviewed about it, though. He’s excited about his prospects in this emerging area of the company — the massive new stream of data Vail Resorts now receives based on the reservations system.

*In years past, on any given day, Vail may not have been able to predict what services that day’s guests will require, from sandwiches to ski patrol. But now the company knows who is going to be arriving when, and what services they will likely use once they’re here. *In addition to the reservations information, Vail Resorts also gleans insights from guests using the company’s new 20% pass holder discount on other Vail Resorts-owned offerings like food, lodging, transportation and equipment rentals."

having that kind of granular individual level data makes me think an evil company like vail could stack the decks on ease of making reservations, algorithmically giving preference to big spending gapers who love $40 lunches and $500 lessons every time they show up.


----------



## gittist (Mar 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> pretty big article about vail resorts and the covid season
> 
> this jumped out at me as potentially nefarious -
> "Another person I talked to, whose job at Vail Resorts involves data collection, told me there’s a lot of good that can come from the reservations system, and it’s unlikely Vail will stop using it in the years to come.
> ...



Oh, like the casinos?


----------



## abc (Mar 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> having that kind of granular individual level data makes me think an evil company like vail could stack the decks on ease of making reservations, algorithmically giving preference to big spending gapers who love $40 lunches and $500 lessons every time they show up.


That's big tech for you!

Who cares about big brother watching you when you have Facebook/Google/*VAIL *


----------



## icecoast1 (Mar 17, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> pretty big article about vail resorts and the covid season
> 
> this jumped out at me as potentially nefarious -
> "Another person I talked to, whose job at Vail Resorts involves data collection, told me there’s a lot of good that can come from the reservations system, and it’s unlikely Vail will stop using it in the years to come.
> ...



Oh yay.  That really makes me want to buy an epic pass.    I somehow cant see them limiting the amount of people on the mountain though.  It just doesnt fit their business model of cramming as many people on the hill as possible, experience be damned


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 17, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I somehow cant see them limiting the amount of people on the mountain though.  It just doesnt fit their business model of cramming as many people on the hill as possible, experience be damned


They don’t limit the amount of people. They limit the amount of passholders that can make a reservation. Then with the data alluded to in the article and other information like which days more people buy window tickets Epic can create the most lucrative conditions for themselves.


----------



## PAabe (Mar 17, 2021)

Hard to see Epic pass remaining as competitive if you have to reserve dates while not the case on other passes

Most of the times I day trip I am not certain I am going until the night before

For example Elk and Montage doing better than ever this year because no reservation required

Maybe the resorts keep it but I can't see that being a good strategy at all at local hills


----------



## eatskisleep (Mar 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Hard to see Epic pass remaining as competitive if you have to reserve dates while not the case on other passes
> 
> Most of the times I day trip I am not certain I am going until the night before
> 
> ...


Agreed. I don't see sales being as high for Epic this coming season (but let's see what their "game changer" announcement is first)... I know a lot of people that were pretty pissed off with them this season. I too am a person that decides to go skiing "last-minute." Reservations don't work for me.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 18, 2021)

They've publicly said they don't want to do reservations after COVID.  That being said Katz isn't really worried about anything but money. They are going to piss a lot of people off and there is no spin machine that can save them from the backlash of continuing reservations.

What a shit show... I literally have no choice for local skiing.  Sure I could drive 2 hours to Blue or 7 Springs but that's just ridiculous when there is Vail owned skiing 4 miles away...  

I recognize to many on this forum that might seem odd but I'm really not interested in my ski day involving a 4 hour roundtrip.  I like driving 5 minutes to ski every day and in a normal year taking several trips up north and out west.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They've publicly said they don't want to do reservations after COVID.  That being said Katz isn't really worried about anything but money. They are going to piss a lot of people off and there is no spin machine that can save them from the backlash of continuing reservations.
> 
> What a shit show... I literally have no choice for local skiing.  Sure I could drive 2 hours to Blue or 7 Springs but that's just ridiculous when there is Vail owned skiing 4 miles away...
> 
> I recognize to many on this forum that might seem odd but I'm really not interested in my ski day involving a 4 hour roundtrip.  I like driving 5 minutes to ski every day and in a normal year taking several trips up north and out west.



Doesn't seem odd to me.  Even if Sugarbush was two hours away and I had a hill like Round Top 5 minutes away, I'd have a pass there and ski there frequently.   I live 2:15 from Wildcat and I still ski Crotched or Sunapee more often because they're 1:15-1:20 away.  I also drive a ton for work though, so my tolerance for long drives on the weekends is less than if I was just a normal commuter.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I live 2:15 from Wildcat and I still ski Crotched or Sunapee more often because they're 1:15-1:20 away.


Aren't you agreeing with him that you driving less?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 18, 2021)

yes he is saying it doesn't seem odd to him that I don't want to drive 2 hours to ski.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

I have a local "bump" that only 20 minutes from my house. I may have hit it once every 3 years!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Aren't you agreeing with him that you driving less?


Obviously yes

Not sure how it could be interpreted otherwise


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 18, 2021)

I'd love to have Roundtop 5 minutes away.  They had some nice bumps when I was there.  

At least I can ski year round indoors nearby.  Terrain park definitely adds to the enjoyment factor (at least until I hurt my old ass).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 18, 2021)

RT truly is a gem.  I mean its still southcentral PA skiing on nearly 100% manmade snow, but its got some entertaining terrain.   And while Vail and megapasses in general have their negatives.  I can't complain about being able to use my pass locally and across the country and even internationally.


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## Jersey Skier (Mar 18, 2021)

*Win a year’s supply of Nature Valley bars* 
Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
Epic Mountain Rewards (seasonpass@e.epicpass.com)

Well that changes everything.  Maybe I'll have to stick with Vail.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 18, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> *Win a year’s supply of Nature Valley bars*
> Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
> Epic Mountain Rewards (seasonpass@e.epicpass.com)
> 
> Well that changes everything.  Maybe I'll have to stick with Vail.


crumbs everywhere.


----------



## gittist (Mar 18, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> *Win a year’s supply of Nature Valley bars*
> Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
> Epic Mountain Rewards (seasonpass@e.epicpass.com)
> 
> Well that changes everything.  Maybe I'll have to stick with Vail.




They're probably all of the Nature Valley Bars they didn't sell this past season (especially at Jack Frost where they supposedly removed all of the tables from the lodge). If you win make sure you check the expiration dates before you bite into one and break a tooth.


----------



## Jersey Skier (Mar 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> They're probably all of the Nature Valley Bars they didn't sell this past season (especially at Jack Frost where they supposedly removed all of the tables from the lodge). If you win make sure you check the expiration dates before you bite into one and break a tooth.


I actually cracked a tooth a few weeks ago with an olive pit that was hidden in a salad. If I bought that from Vail I would have considered suing after this year's treatment.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 18, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> *Win a year’s supply of Nature Valley bars*
> Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:31 am
> Epic Mountain Rewards (seasonpass@e.epicpass.com)
> 
> Well that changes everything.  Maybe I'll have to stick with Vail.



Our dogs love those when we hike!


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 18, 2021)

So I gather the "evil empire" is offering a 100% credit of price paid this year to be applied to next year's pass for those who did not use this year's pass at all due to Covid and/or Travel restrix.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 18, 2021)

seems to be a bit more nuanced than that. you needed to have a priority day reservation that went unused or some such. if you didnt make any reservations bc of quarantine rules (and also didnt use the pass), you seem out of luck.


----------



## abc (Mar 18, 2021)

Strange.

Those who ski elsewhere because they didn't want to see their pass money down the drain is out of luck, even if they ski one day


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## jaytrem (Mar 18, 2021)

abc said:


> Strange.
> 
> Those who ski elsewhere because they didn't want to see their pass money down the drain is out of luck, even if they ski one day



Might be the first of a few different letters.


----------



## kendo (Mar 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> seems to be a bit more nuanced than that. you needed to have a priority day reservation that went unused or some such. if you didnt make any reservations bc of quarantine rules (and also didnt use the pass), you seem out of luck.
> 
> View attachment 50971



Was this an email, letter or online somewhere?  

Didn't find on Epic website or Facebook.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> seems to be a bit more nuanced than that. you needed to have a priority day reservation that went unused or some such. if you didnt make any reservations bc of quarantine rules (and also didnt use the pass), you seem out of luck.
> 
> View attachment 50971


That’s interesting


----------



## urungus (Mar 18, 2021)

I received the email at 6pm today.  Psyched that I will be receiving 100% credit ...  I forgot to cancel my 10 priority reservations at Mt Snow, and had been convinced that Epic would count those 10 days against me in the event of refunds.  If I had done the right thing and cancelled (freeing my spot for someone else), I would be SOL.   Seems totally unfair to those who did not make any reservations at all.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

kendo said:


> Was this an email, letter or online somewhere?
> 
> Didn't find on Epic website or Facebook.



email posted to skiology fb


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

urungus said:


> I received the email at 6pm today.  Psyched that I will be receiving 100% credit ...  I forgot to cancel my 10 priority reservations at Mt Snow, and had been convinced that Epic would count those 10 days against me in the event of refunds.  If I had done the right thing and cancelled (freeing my spot for someone else), I would be SOL.   Seems totally unfair to those who did not make any reservations at all.


Amazing how a 100% credit to some that they had no obligation to offer at all gets spun as being "totally unfair" to those who don't qualify for it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

I didn't ski in VT this winter.  It was due to my own scheduling and not the rules.  I used the pass plenty in NH and don't expect a credit.  Good on Vail for hooking some folks up though.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Amazing how a 100% credit to some that they had no obligation to offer at all gets spun as being "totally unfair" to those who don't qualify for it.



it is unfair. and its splitting hairs. did you use your pass 0 days should be the only qualifier. they are very intentionally trying to avoid giving the credit to a portion of their customer base who didn't go skiing, because they didn't make a reservation? if i were in that boat i'd be pissed, especially if i was not making the reservation because i believed to be doing the true and right thing about public health guidance.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it is unfair. and its splitting hairs. did you use your pass 0 days should be the only qualifier. they are very intentionally trying to avoid giving the credit to a portion of their customer base who didn't go skiing, because they didn't make a reservation? if i were in that boat i'd be pissed, especially if i was not making the reservation because i believed to be doing the true and right thing about public health guidance.


If that was the only qualifier I guarantee there would be posts complaining how unfair it was that there was no credit for folks who skied one day. 

Wherever you draw a line it feels unfair to folks 1 mm to the other side of that line. But bottom line is they are offering a gift to some here, and that should be applauded. Are they offering this gift in part to make themselves look good? Sure. But even Santa Claus is guilty of that.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

lol. come on. nothing vail does is worthy of applause. they want to keep subscribers year over year. there is no goodness of the heart motivating this decision.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

If a public corporation did anything from the goodness of their alleged heart they would rightfully get sued for it by their shareholders.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. come on. nothing vail does is worthy of applause. they want to keep subscribers year over year. there is no goodness of the heart motivating this decision.


Exactly, I'm sure they crunched a bunch of numbers.  Give somebody a free pass for 21/22 and there a better chance they'll buy a 22/23.....23/24...and so on.  I'll be surprised if they don't do the same thing for the 0 day users and % off for 1 day, 2 day, etc.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

Maybe we should retitled this thread 
"Vail is running a business"


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

ok mr katz.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ok mr katz.


Just a guy exceeding pleased with my family having gotten better bang for my buck as well as a better overall ski experience from my Epic Pass this year than I have ever had before in 4 decades of skiing.

Yes they are serving their customers in a way they hope will make them repeat customers for many years. Good way to run a business.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

except they really arent. they're drawing bullshit lines to exclude a chunk of customers, presumably a pretty large one, from receiving a fair deal. it strikes me as the opposite of good way to run a business to draw those sorts of lines. 

i'm glad you enjoy your epic pass. no snark. i'm also glad people like you exist who gladly accept this lowest common denominator product. vail can keep funnelling hordes to places i don't want to go anyway. i'm cool with that. RIP stowe.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> If that was the only qualifier I guarantee there would be posts complaining how unfair it was that there was no credit for folks who skied one day.
> 
> Wherever you draw a line it feels unfair to folks 1 mm to the other side of that line. But bottom line is they are offering a gift to some here, and that should be applauded. Are they offering this gift in part to make themselves look good? Sure. But even Santa Claus is guilty of that.


Yes, but it is far easier to make a justification on a differentiation on someone that used it 1+ days vs someone that used it 0 days. Trying to justify a differentiation between 2 people that both used it 0 days but one made a priority reservation and the other didn't is rather pointless. Both had 0 usage presumably because they were unable to get to their resorts due to travel restrictions they were trying to abide by. One person simply made a reservation in the hopes that travel restrictions would be lifted while the other took the more conservative approach of not making a reservation until they were sure they would be able to use it. It makes no sense to punish the person that was more conservative in their approach of listening to the rules from the various states.

It absolutely is great that they're giving credit to some people that weren't able to use their pass. However they should be giving it to everyone that couldn't use the pass. Anything other than that is purely greed on their part and shouldn't be considered acceptable...


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'm glad you enjoy your epic pass. no snark. i'm also glad people like you exist who gladly accept this lowest common denominator product. vail can keep funnelling hordes to places i don't want to go anyway. i'm cool with that. RIP stowe.



That's great as long as the other places survive.

I'm kinda stuck with with Epic (house at Mount Snow forever), but prefer to use my Indy given the opportunity.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> That's great as long as the other places survive.
> 
> I'm kinda stuck with with Epic (house at Mount Snow forever), but prefer to use my Indy given the opportunity.


Hopefully they will inspire some other places to offer competitive season pass prices


----------



## ctdubl07 (Mar 19, 2021)

Just a guy exceeding pleased with my family having gotten better bang for my buck as well as a better overall ski experience from my Epic Pass this year than I have ever had before in 4 decades of skiing.


Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Yes they are serving their customers in a way they hope will make them repeat customers for many years. Good way to run a busin





Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Just a guy exceeding pleased with my family having gotten better bang for my buck as well as a better overall ski experience from my Epic Pass this year than I have ever had before in 4 decades of skiing.
> 
> Yes they are serving their customers in a way they hope will make them repeat customers for many years. Good way to run a business.


Same boat. Couldn't be happier with Vail, our experience this year or the fact that they bought Peaks. Everyone has their own needs, perspectives and validation points as consumers. Skied all we needed to this season, where we wanted and it's not over. Heading to Vail in 2 weeks. Awesome to be able to say that with no further pass investment. And I'm glad that 99% of the Folks out there skiing are happy, not on this site and driving Vails model forward.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Hopefully they will inspire some other places to offer competitive season pass prices



I'm not sure I'm following you. Almost every where has competitive pass prices.  There are certainly independent mountains not on a group deal that seem expensive by comparison.  But, compared to day tickets and how passes were priced 5-10 years ago, it's still a really good deal.

I'd rather see higher prices overall and see resorts make a better margin than focusing on volume.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure I'm following you. Almost every where has competitive pass prices.  There are certainly independent mountains not on a group deal that seem expensive by comparison.  But, compared to day tickets and how passes were priced 5-10 years ago, it's still a really good deal.
> 
> I'd rather see higher prices overall and see resorts make a better margin than focusing on volume.


I'd like to see pass prices lowered significantly  by those places that charge more (or almost as much) for 1 mountain passes as Epic/Ikon charge for multi-mountain passes.

I care about prices of options available to me, not resorts profit margins. I am a fan of entities like Vail / Alterra / ORDA that offer a good deal to customers like me. Pass prices at places like Elk, Plattekill, Windham could benefit from competitive pressure.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I'd like to see pass prices lowered significantly  by those places that charge more (or almost as much) for 1 mountain passes as Epic/Ikon charge for multi-mountain passes.
> 
> I care about prices of options available to me, not resorts profit margins. I am a fan of entities like Vail / Alterra / ORDA that offer a good deal to customers like me. Pass prices at places like Elk, Plattekill, Windham could benefit from competitive pressure.



HARD pass

The problem I see with Epic/Icon is they have made things too inexpensive virtually everywhere.   There needs to be greater diversification of product tiers.  Make the unlimited products inclusive of premium areas way more expensive and reduce the amount of days that can be used at the premier properties by base passes considerably.   It will price some folks out, but that's what the mid and lower tier areas are for.  Not everyone can afford to go to a premium priced restaurant like a Morton's Steakhouse every Saturday.  Same should be true of a premium ski area.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

seriously. its a race to the fucking bottom. if you cant ski weekdays this model straight up ruins the skiing experience.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

They will have to raise prices by at least 3x to make it viable for them to reduce crowds by 50% (cause they will lose the other money folks spend too). Perhaps some places will do it for you. I will not be buying passes for my family at those places as I am not that rich.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 19, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> Just a guy exceeding pleased with my family having gotten better bang for my buck as well as a better overall ski experience from my Epic Pass this year than I have ever had before in 4 decades of skiing.
> 
> 
> Same boat. Couldn't be happier with Vail, our experience this year or the fact that they bought Peaks. Everyone has their own needs, perspectives and validation points as consumers. Skied all we needed to this season, where we wanted and it's not over. Heading to Vail in 2 weeks. Awesome to be able to say that with no further pass investment. And I'm glad that 99% of the Folks out there skiing are happy, not on this site and driving Vails model forward.



Having lived in Colorado for the past 5 years, we were able to ski 50-60 days exception last season due to covid only 28 days.  But at $450-550 for Veterans Epic Pass and Veteran Dependent pass for$330 for my son we got the biggest bang for our buck than ever before and we skied Breck Keystone Beaver Creek Vail and A Basin.  That is not a bad line up IMO.  With A Basin splitting from Epic we still were able to purchase a Military A Basin Pass for less than $200 and that included three days at Monarch.  Never had that in the Northeast.  Now it is feasible here!

I blows me away that there are pass options besides Ikon and Epic that are more expensive or equal for what we paid that offer much less value.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> They will have to raise prices by at least 3x to make it viable for them to reduce crowds by 50% (cause they will lose the other money folks spend too). Perhaps some places will do it for you. I will not be buying passes for my family at those places as I am not that rich.



I'd be fine with $1500 as the unlimited price for a place like Stowe and then raising the price significantly on the base pass for five days access or reducing access down to 2-3 days at the same price currently being offered.  I'd like to see the price go up for access to Wildcat too, but that's unlikely. 

Earlier in my career I didn't ski Stowe for about ten years because I couldn't afford it. It sucked because I lived in Stowe for many years and got a cheap industry or college pass.  When making a lower income I bought passes to places like Ragged and then hunted for deals at more Premium mountains. 

Now that I've worked my ass off and I am in position to pay for a more premium product, it's been cheapened.  I'm sure this is the same way people feel about Alta, Snowbird and Jackson on Ikon.


----------



## kendo (Mar 19, 2021)

This just in.    
Cliff notes version...  
we're expanding our off shore call centers; 
we expect to be able to fully staff our resorts and lifts next year with foreign labor; 
we want your continued love and money!   







​







​





Dear xxxx,

On March 23, we will be releasing our 2021/22 season passes with some exciting changes we believe you will very much appreciate. But before we look forward, I want to address the challenges we faced during this incredibly difficult season and share our plans to grow from these experiences.

First, a follow up on our call center wait times. We are committed to a multi-year transformation to ensure we provide you the information you need, when you need it, and how you want to receive it. As a first step, we have spent the last few months overhauling the technical systems behind our guest service operations and are in the process of dramatically scaling the number of representatives available to provide you support. While we are still putting the fully expanded team into place, I’m pleased to share that* we have doubled our staff of customer service representatives since December and plan to quadruple our staff by May*. We will also be rolling out a much more robust chat offering. Our goal is to ensure that we can quickly answer your calls and messages and get you the information you need. While there may still be moments with longer hold times in the short term, I am confident you will see continuous improvement over the next couple of months and well before next season.   

Second, an update on our pass holder reservation system. We designed the system to help safely manage on-mountain capacity during this pandemic. While we do not know exactly how COVID-19 will impact our industry next winter, *we are not planning to have a reservation system next season*. For anyone worried that the absence of a reservation system will lead to longer lift lines, we have extensive learnings from this season around lift loading efficiencies and are implementing new strategies to materially reduce wait times. And of course, we will also benefit from new lifts at Breckenridge, Keystone, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte and Okemo.

Our goal this season was to safely open – and stay open – all winter long as we worked to navigate the unique challenges of operating our resorts during this unprecedented pandemic. Because of your loyalty as a pass holder, our supportive communities and our hard-working employees, we will achieve that goal together. In fact, we are pleased to provide our guests with the opportunity to enjoy skiing and riding well into the spring as *we recently announced extended operations at nearly a dozen of our resorts*.

Amidst the hardships of this last year, we have come away with many lessons learned, a heightened sense of the importance of recreating on our mountains, and a renewed commitment to live up to our mission of providing you an _Experience of a Lifetime._ I am sincerely grateful for your patience and understanding, and* I look forward to sharing our big news with you when passes drop on March 23*.​





Wishing you all the very best,   
*Rob Katz* 
CEO of Vail Resorts​


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2021)

The reality is that for someone like me I need the following.  Unlimited to a few places in PA including my local hill.  Anything beyond that could easily be limited to say 7 days Tier 1 and 10 days Tier 2.   Obviously if you live near a "destination resort" you sort of get screwed.  So the way around that is to offer your Epic or Ikon in addition to an appropriately priced 1 mountain pass with some sort of add on for tier 1 and tier 2 resort days.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2021)

kendo said:


> This just in.
> Cliff notes version...
> we're expanding our off shore call centers;
> we expect to be able to fully staff our resorts and lifts next year with foreign labor;
> we want your continued love and money!



Whatever they need to do.  Its not like anyone in CO was all that helpful
I'm sure they will just like every other major ski resort operator
Of course they do, they are a business


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be fine with $1500 as the unlimited price for a place like Stowe and then raising the price significantly on the base pass for five days access or reducing access down to 2-3 days at the same price currently being offered.  I'd like to see the price go up for access to Wildcat too, but that's unlikely.
> 
> Earlier in my career I didn't ski Stowe for about ten years because I couldn't afford it. It sucked because I lived in Stowe for many years and got a cheap industry or college pass.  When making a lower income I bought passes to places like Ragged and then hunted for deals at more Premium mountains.
> 
> Now that I've worked my ass off and I am in position to pay for a more premium product, it's been cheapened.  I'm sure this is the same way people feel about Alta, Snowbird and Jackson on Ikon.


I guess I am OK with some resorts still catering to rich elitists who want to pay more to avoid skiing with the rest of us if there are enough of you to make that a viable business model.

Hopefully most of my fav places won't go that way. 

I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I guess I am OK with some resorts still catering to rich elitists who want to pay more to avoid skiing with the rest of us if there are enough of you to make that a viable business model.
> 
> Hopefully most of my fav places won't go that way.
> 
> I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.


I'm on board with more expensive pricing and trust me when I tell you I'm far from rich...like wicked far. I value the experience of well run ski areas and realistic capacity. 

I'm glad I hedged my epic pass with a cannon pass. I've used the cannon pass much more this winter...its a well run place imo


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm on board with more expensive pricing and trust me when I tell you I'm far from rich...like wicked far. I value the experience of well run ski areas and realistic capacity.
> 
> I'm glad I hedged my epic pass with a cannon pass. I've used the cannon pass much more this winter...its a well run place imo



im at the shit or get off the pot point with cannon indy so I'll be there tomorrow. have not been in quite a long time. always enjoy it when i do go. looking forward to it.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im at the shit or get off the pot point with cannon indy so I'll be there tomorrow. have not been in quite a long time. always enjoy it when i do go. looking forward to it.


It's a great hill with nice trails. It's a tie between cannon and wildcat in nh for me. Snow often better at the cat but variety of terrain mix at cannon is great. Hope it warms up enough to soften for you. Start at front 5 it loosens earliest


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I guess I am OK with some resorts still catering to rich elitists who want to pay more to avoid skiing with the rest of us if there are enough of you to make that a viable business model.
> 
> Hopefully most of my fav places won't go that way.
> 
> I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.



Woah there

I wouldn't call myself a rich elitist. I just recognize that some experiences should cost more.  I stay at a Marriott when I travel.  I don't expect the Four Seasons to drop their price to accommodate me.  If something is out of my price range (for virtually anything) I don't buy it.  I find something I can afford.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 19, 2021)

Guess we will see how it goes next season. This has been my longest season so far and aside from the crowds has been good. I'm trying not to judge things according to this season as it has been unique. 
The airlines, at least the one I flew to Utah learned something..how to load and unload a plane the right way. But I fear they will go back to the old way..which never made sense to me...load a tube from front to back..


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

they released another false apology letter from rob katz via e-mail to passholders. it says they will not have reservations next year, but that they have specific plans to reduce lift lines. good luck with that


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

With passes prices as they are (I paid $1200 for our 3 Epic passes last year) I figure I will have spent about $6000 on a completely optional leisure activity this year. I'd say having the able to do that puts me among the 10% of Americans with the most discretionary income to use on whatever I want after paying my basic bills. Someone who is arguing that passes should go up to the extent that this bill should go up by $3300 (raising pass prices to $1500/person) to a total of $9300 so as to cut out skiers like my kids and I is clearly another level of elite than my mere top 10% ness.


deadheadskier said:


> Woah there
> 
> I wouldn't call myself a rich elitist. I just recognize that some experiences should cost more.  I stay at a Marriott when I travel.  I don't expect the Four Seasons to drop their price to accommodate me.  If something is out of my price range (for virtually anything) I don't buy it.  I find something I can afford.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> With passes prices as they are (I paid $1200 for our 3 Epic passes last year) I figure I will have spent about $6000 on a completely optional leisure activity this year. I'd say having the able to do that puts me among the 10% of Americans with the most discretionary income. Someone who is arguing that passes should go up to the extent that this bill should go up by $3300 (raising pass prices to $1500/person) to a total of $9300 so as to cut out skiers like my kids and I is clearly another level of elite than my mere top 10% ness.


I mean if you cant afford a top tier place then it is what it is. You likely make more money than me, but I dont have kids and live trashy cheap. We all make our decisions and live up our priorities...there's no wrong answer but there are trade offs.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Um, I said $1500 for full unlimited.  That's $900 more for the season in your situation.  So, I'm not sure where you are getting your figures.


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## Jersey Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> With passes prices as they are (I paid $1200 for our 3 Epic passes last year) I figure I will have spent about $6000 on a completely optional leisure activity this year. I'd say having the able to do that puts me among the 10% of Americans with the most discretionary income to use on whatever I want after paying my basic bills. Someone who is arguing that passes should go up to the extent that this bill should go up by $3300 (raising pass prices to $1500/person) to a total of $9300 so as to cut out skiers like my kids and I is clearly another level of elite than my mere top 10% ness.


Some people, like myself, just don't want to deal with crowds. My Epic Pass went mostly unused because I didn't want to deal with the crowds at Hunter this year. So despite having pre-paid lift tickets I still bought tickets to ski Belleayre to avoid the crowds.  I choose to never ski weekends except Plattekill since there are no crowds there.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Um, I said $1500 for full unlimited.  That's $900 more for the season in your situation.  So, I'm not sure where you are getting your figures.


I paid $1200 total for 1 adult and 2 child unlimited Epic Local passes this year. Unless your price includes a cheaper rate for kids you are increasing my price to $4500.

Without the credits I expect my prices will go up this year regardless. Ikon Standard or ORDA would cost me just over $1400 for the 3 of us next year. Awaiting Epic offer.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I mean if you cant afford a top tier place then it is what it is. You likely make more money than me, but I dont have kids and live trashy cheap. We all make our decisions and live up our priorities...there's no wrong answer but there are trade offs.


Happy doing Epic or Ikon or ORDA with the masses. Don't need to be able to afford an irrationally priced Windham unlimited pass.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I paid $1200 total for 1 adult and 2 child unlimited Epic Local passes this year. Unless your price includes a cheaper rate for kids you are increasing my price to $4500.
> 
> Without the credits I expect my prices will go up this year regardless. Ikon Standard or ORDA would cost me just over $1400 for the 3 of us next year. Awaiting Epic offer.



I don't feel that $1200 for a family of three should provide unlimited access to a place like Stowe.  Prior to Vail purchasing the mountain, the price was around $1800 for early buy on a single adult pass.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2021)

You don't get unlimited at Stowe on Epic Local.  I believe it was a max of 10 days that were holiday blacked out.


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## Jersey Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't feel that $1200 for a family of three should provide unlimited access to a place like Stowe.  Prior to Vail purchasing the mountain, the price was around $1800 for early buy on a single adult pass.


But they get to make it up on volume.  And people like myself will probably never ski Stowe again. It's too bad.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> But they get to make it up on volume.  And people like myself will probably never ski Stowe again. It's too bad.


Same 

Zero interest in Stowe on weekends and holidays during the current state.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 19, 2021)

honest question  wasn't Stowe pushing this busy pre-Vail on weekends and holidays?  I'm sure 20 years ago it wasn't, but 5-6 years ago you would experience long lines on 4-Runner and at the Gondola on regular weekends when I was there.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> You don't get unlimited at Stowe on Epic Local.  I believe it was a max of 10 days that were holiday blacked out.





deadheadskier said:


> I don't feel that $1200 for a family of three should provide unlimited access to a place like Stowe.  Prior to Vail purchasing the mountain, the price was around $1800 for early buy on a single adult pass.



It's unlimited at Stowe, but being blacked out on holidays - combined with its distance from NJ -  have meant we have used Stowe far less than we have used Okemo Snow or Hunter. So far I have done 3 days at Stowe and kids 2 days each. Would have done one more each but it poured all day Xmas when we were in a hotel there with reservations to ski (black out started 26th). Will get 2 more Stowe days in early April, if their conditions warrant driving all that way.

Glad Katz feels his customers deserve to ski nice places more than our moderator does. Care to guess which POV I think sucks?


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

Hasn't actually been that busy any of my days at Stowe other than the Gondola. Just choose your lifts wisely and ski. Never waited more than 5 min for any other lift including Dec 24 and Presidents Day (black out was only Sat and Sun)


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## ThatGuy (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Glad Katz feels his customers deserve to ski nice places more than our moderator does. Care to guess which POV I think sucks?


Katz doesn’t care where you ski, he cares about how much money can be raked in. Also “nice” is subjective when it goes hand in hand with long lines and bad customer service. More power to you for utilizing your Epic pass to the fullest, but some people have other ideas of what makes a ski place “nice”.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Katz doesn’t care where you ski he cares about how much money can be raked in. Also “nice” is subjective when it goes hand in hand with long lines and bad customer service. More power to you for utilizing you Epic pass to the fullest but some people have other ideas of what makes a ski place “nice”.


Our moderator on the other hand seems to be upset that we ski Stowe without paying $5400 for our season passes like we would have had to do a few years ago, cause it means he can't ski there without waiting in 5 minute lift lines.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 19, 2021)

This is interesting!  When I lived in NH we bought cannon passes for my wife son and I.  The year before we moved to Colorado, our passes cost us $1243 and I had a NH Vet deal.  The following year we move to Colorado and our Epic Local (Colorado) Passes cost $1317.  For $1243 we ski one mountain, for $1317 we got Breck, Keystone, A Basin, Vail, Beaver Creek and could make trips to Tahoe or Utah as well.  The year we were skiing Cannon half of our days were at Cannon (aboout 25) and we deal hunted to go to other places which cost us extra.  When we had the Epic Pass we did not need to look elsewhere because we had almost 15,000 acres to ski.

To me the $1317 feels like way way more value!  Not that is available here via Ikon or Epic and that IMO is great!


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

Of course ultimately Vail can set whatever policies they want and I will continue to choose each year the option that provides the best deal for my family. 

But my experience with 58 days of skiing in on Epic Local Pass over last two years is that it will not be length of lines that sways me away from Epic, as on only 2 of those 58 days (an early season day at Jack Frost this year and a day at Snow last year with lots of lifts down due to icing) have lines significantly impaired our experience. Other than that the worst they have done have is get me ski a less busy part of the mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> It's unlimited at Stowe, but being blacked out on holidays - combined with its distance from NJ -  have meant we have used Stowe far less than we have used Okemo Snow or Hunter. So far I have done 3 days at Stowe and kids 2 days each. Would have done one more each but it poured all day Xmas when we were in a hotel there with reservations to ski (black out started 26th). Will get 2 more Stowe days in early April, if their conditions warrant driving all that way.
> 
> Glad Katz feels his customers deserve to ski nice places more than our moderator does. Care to guess which POV I think sucks?





Get a grip dude. Some things in life should cost more money.

Do you expect Audi to sell you an SQ7 for the price of a Toyota Highlander?

Morton's to sell you a Prime Ribeye for the cost of  Texas Roadhouse steak tips?

If Epic and Ikons MO is to pack their resorts to the gills, I'll take my business elsewhere.  Its ok.
People have different perspectives on value.  To me, that's not necessarily how cheap something is.


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## snoseek (Mar 19, 2021)

I'm more concerned about day to day operations than crowding. At my areas of choice they needed improvement.

Crowding is low on the list for me, I ski midweek...and yeah the pass at 509 dollars unlimited was too good to pass up. I like saving money but if they need to charge more to pay their staff and run their resorts proper then yeah dont put out a half ass product.

So yeah imo they need to acquire and retain more and better staff on the actual ground at resorts like wildcat and that's gonna cost money.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Get a grip dude. Some things in life should cost more money.
> 
> Do you expect Audi to sell you an SQ7 for the price of a Toyota Highlander?
> 
> ...


I don't expect anyone to sell me anything for any price other than that which will hit the sweet spot of a price point that attracts the number of customers that maximizes their profitability. I expect Vail does that pretty well, but if they calculate this year that by doubling their prices they will only lose 20% of their customers and will be more profitable - then by all means they should do that. And as a public corporation,  if they do anything other than maximize profits as much as they can while complying with the law, then they should be sued by their shareholders.

You seem to be arguing for them to reduce their profitability so as to enable you to ski places that exclude those of us who have more limited recreational budgets per person than you have. 

Of course either of us are free to take our business elsewhere. But if they are losing your business not based on overcharging but because you feel their business model - as they makes them too popular, I can't imagine fear of losing the business of a few people who want to spend more for a less popular product is going to shape their behavior - as in that scenario their issue is not having insufficient customers to maximize profitability.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 19, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm more concerned about day to day operations than crowding. At my areas of choice they needed improvement.
> 
> Crowding is low on the list for me, I ski midweek...and yeah the pass at 509 dollars unlimited was too good to pass up. I like saving money but if they need to charge more to pay their staff and run their resorts proper then yeah dont put out a half ass product.
> 
> So yeah imo they need to acquire and retain more and better staff on the actual ground at resorts like wildcat and that's gonna cost money.



That got me thinking - Vail runs places like Breck and Keystone almost flawlessly and there are a shit load of employees - sometimes too many.  They we have Wildcat and much much smaller place and revenue wise it goes probably unnoticed.  Seems like getting Wildcat improved would be a piece of cake.  Leads me to wonder what the long term objectives are with the Peak Resorts.  Like it is hard to think that Crotched in a Vail owned ski area.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2021)

Today was day #72 on my epic northeast pass, I paid $475. That is stupid value. The closest comp for the epic NH mountains is the WMSP at around $1k, if my memory is any good. If they were run in the same manner, I would take the epic mountains over the wmsp mountains everyday. If the wmsp can stay in business around $1k than unlimited nh epic should be in the same range. I would like to see weekend and holiday access start at the epic local price point, unlimited full epic only.

But if customers are paying a premium price, they deserve a premium product. Wildcat should have the longest season east of killington, attitash needs an hsdq, sunapee needs their expansion. Crotched is good enough for what it is.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That got me thinking - Vail runs places like Breck and Keystone almost flawlessly and there are a shit load of employees - sometimes too many.  They we have Wildcat and much much smaller place and revenue wise it goes probably unnoticed.  Seems like getting Wildcat improved would be a piece of cake.  Leads me to wonder what the long term objectives are with the Peak Resorts.  Like it is hard to think that Crotched in a Vail owned ski area.


If I woke tomorrow and found out that crotched had been acquired by boyne, I would buy a boyne pass. Same with several other operators. 1,000,000 people live in southeast NH, many more in northeast mass; crotch is a good local option that rounds out the pass.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I don't expect anyone to sell me anything for any price other than that which will hit the sweet spot of a price point that attracts the number of customers that maximizes their profitability. I expect Vail does that pretty well, but if they calculate this year that by doubling their prices they will only lose 20% of their customers and will be more profitable - then by all means they should do that. And as a public corporation,  if they do anything other than maximize profits as much as they can while complying with the law, then they should be sued by their shareholders.
> 
> You seem to be arguing for them to reduce their profitability so as to enable you to ski places that exclude those of us who have more limited recreational budgets per person than you have.
> 
> Of course either of us are free to take our business elsewhere. But if they are losing your business not based on overcharging but because you feel their business model makes them too popular, I can't imagine fear of losing the business of a few people who want to spend more for a less popular product is going to shape their behavior.



Where have I ever said for them to reduce profitability?  

I specifically said, fewer people at higher margins. 

Sorry that's problematic for you and you'd rather see Rob Katz become Oprah and give everyone a free pass along with the free car.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 19, 2021)

tastes like rob katz' balls in here.


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## Jersey Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm more concerned about day to day operations than crowding. At my areas of choice they needed improvement.
> 
> Crowding is low on the list for me, I ski midweek...and yeah the pass at 509 dollars unlimited was too good to pass up. I like saving money but if they need to charge more to pay their staff and run their resorts proper then yeah dont put out a half ass product.
> 
> So yeah imo they need to acquire and retain more and better staff on the actual ground at resorts like wildcat and that's gonna cost money.



I only ski Hunter on Wednesdays. For the past 2o years I never had a lift line more than a few minutes. This year was like flash backs to the 70's with 15-20 minute waits to get on the 6 pack.  I thought the $479 pass would  make that tolerable, but I just couldn't do it. Only used it 3 days.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I'd like to see pass prices lowered significantly  by those places that charge more (or almost as much) for 1 mountain passes as Epic/Ikon charge for multi-mountain passes.
> 
> I care about prices of options available to me, not resorts profit margins. I am a fan of entities like Vail / Alterra / ORDA that offer a good deal to customers like me. Pass prices at places like Elk, Plattekill, Windham could benefit from competitive pressure.





Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I guess I am OK with some resorts still catering to rich elitists who want to pay more to avoid skiing with the rest of us if there are enough of you to make that a viable business model.
> 
> Hopefully most of my fav places won't go that way.
> 
> I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.



Here's the problem. The Mega-pass resorts can afford to offer low pass prices because of the sheer volume of passes they sell. They've set artificially low prices to capture market-share and "hook" people on their product. Ikon and Epic sells hundreds of thousands of passes. Meanwhile how many passes do you think a place like Plattekill sells? Maybe 5-10K (this might even be a high estimate)? Last year they were charging around $750 I think for a pass. If we assume for a minute they sold 5K passes, and if they lowered prices $100, they'd need to sell an additional 770 passes just to break even with what they made off the higher prices (that's a 15% increase in sales). I really don't know you're going to see substantial increases in pass sales at a place like Platty just by lowering the price. These ski areas need to sell passes as a price that allows them to stay in business.

I get the impression Elk is busier than Platty, so I'd assume they sell more passes. But still, they're not selling anywhere near what Ikon or Epic are. They again would need to see substantial increases in pass sales to offset the loss in revenue from lowering prices. And you want "significant" lowering of their prices. I don't see that happening if they want to stay in business.

Windham? Yes they are over-priced, but they've been that way for a long time. And they still are packed. What's the point of them lowering prices if they're selling more than enough passes to hit their capacity targets and if that many people are still willing to pay those prices?

And ORDA's Ski-3 pass doesn't belong in this conversation at all. It is a great value, but the ORDA resorts are subsidized by the taxpayers of NY. Not a valid comparison at all to the majority of the ski resorts out there that don't get that type of funding.

Personally I'd also be in favor of the mega-passes increasing their prices a bit (I'm an Ikon pass-holder and also far from rich). I think ideally they should require you to pick a "home" resort (or perhaps in some areas a group of resorts could be lumped together and count as 1 for the purpose of a "home" resort). You get unlimited access to your home resort(s) and then a limited number of days at all the other resorts on your pass. I think that would make a lot more sense than allowing unlimited access to dozens of resorts for a stupid-low price.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 19, 2021)

JFBB shutting down the 28th. BB closing the 21st (this Sunday). That is very early considering Big Boulder used to go until mid-April.


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## Edd (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I don't expect anyone to sell me anything for any price other than that which will hit the sweet spot of a price point that attracts the number of customers that maximizes their profitability. I expect Vail does that pretty well, but if they calculate this year that by doubling their prices they will only lose 20% of their customers and will be more profitable - then by all means they should do that. And as a public corporation,  if they do anything other than maximize profits as much as they can while complying with the law, then they should be sued by their shareholders.
> 
> You seem to be arguing for them to reduce their profitability so as to enable you to ski places that exclude those of us who have more limited recreational budgets per person than you have.
> 
> Of course either of us are free to take our business elsewhere. But if they are losing your business not based on overcharging but because you feel their business model - as they makes them too popular, I can't imagine fear of losing the business of a few people who want to spend more for a less popular product is going to shape their behavior - as in that scenario their issue is not having insufficient customers to maximize profitability.


I see his point as the quality of the ski experience (at Stowe for example) is being diminished by Vail’s overall strategy. You’re on a forum for ski nerds who care about skiing, not coupon cutters. The skiing is the thing, and if higher prices preserve a quality of experience, than it’s worth it to a ski nerd, even a non-rich one.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2021)

Jersey Skier said:


> I only ski Hunter on Wednesdays. For the past 2o years I never had a lift line more than a few minutes. This year was like flash backs to the 70's with 15-20 minute waits to get on the 6 pack.  I thought the $479 pass would  make that tolerable, but I just couldn't do it. Only used it 3 days.


If those chairs were going up full, you think the wait would have changed?

My problem is the amount of time I spend skiing alone while kids are in program. Doubt I would have wanted more than five minutes all year if there a proper singles line and full chairs.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Personally I'd also be in favor of the mega-passes increasing their prices a bit (I'm an Ikon pass-holder and also far from rich). I think ideally they should require you to pick a "home" resort (or perhaps in some areas a group of resorts could be lumped together and count as 1 for the purpose of a "home" resort). You get unlimited access to your home resort(s) and then a limited number of days at all the other resorts on your pass. I think that would make a lot more sense than allowing unlimited access to dozens of resorts for a stupid-low price.



I'd be onboard with that.  If Vail said,  pick two mountains for unlimited access and then we will give you three days a piece everywhere else, that would be a better balance.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Where have I ever said for them to reduce profitability?
> 
> I specifically said, fewer people at higher margins.
> 
> Sorry that's problematic for you and you'd rather see Rob Katz become Oprah and give everyone a free pass along with the free car.


The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.


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## snoseek (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.


Yeah they know all about profitability but lack ability to look into the future. Imo their model is not sustainable...it caters to short term gains. Eventually people will move on.


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## thebigo (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.


No, I do not think they have any clue how to run their recently acquired eastern properties. I think they are very good at running western resorts.


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## Jersey Skier (Mar 19, 2021)

thebigo said:


> If those chairs were going up full, you think the wait would have changed?
> 
> My problem is the amount of time I spend skiing alone while kids are in program. Doubt I would have wanted more than five minutes all year if there a proper singles line and full chairs.


I honestly think if the lodges and bar were open the lift lines would have been fine. All the people had nothing to do but ski. Normally I think half these people ski for an hour then hang out.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.



Pros?

The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?

The pros that couldn't properly staff snowmaking and lift operations in NH this winter even though their nearby neighbors didn't have the same issues? 

Maybe they're pros at profit, but certainly not guest experience.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pros?
> 
> The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?
> 
> ...


We are talking about setting prices to maximize profitability, the goal of a public corporation. I expect Vail's pros are setting prices to do so better than our saying "raise prices" or " lower prices" could do it for them.


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## cdskier (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pros?
> 
> The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?
> 
> ...


I'd also argue that I think they haven't yet "tested" how far they can push things with pass prices. This is a multi-year/multi-phase strategy to maximize profit. They're in "Phase 1" of their plan. Phase 1 is "offer a low price and see how much market-share we can take over via both low prices and acquisitions". Constant acquisitions have allowed them to continue to increase revenue and make stock-holders happy while they keep pass prices low. Once they hit a point where they believe they've maximized their market-share, then they enter "Phase 2". That's where they start to increase prices. If anyone thinks Epic is at the "sweet-spot" right now and will leave prices there, they're going to be in for a big surprise at some point.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

That's an overly simplistic and shortsighted view on things.  There's a lot more that goes into profitability than just setting prices. 

Maintaining a healthy customer base is certainly key to long term profitability for a ski area.   If you don't deliver a good product, it doesn't matter how cheap it is.  Some people will not return because their perception is the product is representative of the cheap price.


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## abc (Mar 19, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I blows me away that there are pass options besides Ikon and Epic that are more expensive or equal for what we paid that offer much less value.


There're even cheaper passes that offers a lot of value! A-basin pass is less than Ikon/Epic, yet offers many reciprocal skiing the nearby mountains. Why would anyone who lives in that part of Colorado buy the more expensive Ikon pass is beyond me. 

That said, value is in the eye of the beholder. If I were restricted to the northeast and not in a pandemic, Epic/Ikon would NOT be of good value no matter what the pass price. Why? Those mountains are just way too crowded on weekends. However, add the western resorts, it has values for me. That is because I normally travel out west. But for people who don't ski out west, and had to ski on weekends mostly? Not much value however cheap the price maybe. They're better off getting a pass at mountains far less busy. Paying more but skiing more on quieter slopes.



Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.


Just like Walmart doesn't suck for offering the same...


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'd also argue that I think they haven't yet "tested" how far they can push things with pass prices. This is a multi-year/multi-phase strategy to maximize profit. They're in "Phase 1" of their plan. Phase 1 is "offer a low price and see how much market-share we can take over via both low prices and acquisitions". Constant acquisitions have allowed them to continue to increase revenue and make stock-holders happy while they keep pass prices low. Once they hit a point where they believe they've maximized their market-share, then they enter "Phase 2". That's where they start to increase prices. If anyone thinks Epic is at the "sweet-spot" right now and will leave prices there, they're going to be in for a big surprise at some point.


Yes I expect prices to gradually go up. I will continue shopping for the best deal for places I like to ski every year - and hopefully will often change passes from year to year as I like some variety.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> That's an overly simplistic and shortsighted view on things.  There's a lot more that goes into profitability than just setting prices.
> 
> Maintaining a healthy customer base is certainly key to long term profitability for a ski area.   If you don't deliver a good product, it doesn't matter how cheap it is.  Some people will not return because their perception is the product is representative of the cheap price.


Over my two years on Epic I have had a better ski experience than ever before, apart from last season ending early - and I was very happy with how I was compensated for that event.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Over my two years on Epic I have had a better ski experience than ever before, apart from last season ending early - and I was very happy with how I was compensated for that event.



Good for you.

I don't know a single Cat or Attitash skier who have lengthy experience with both mountains that doesn't think Vail did a worse job running those mountains than at any time in the past ten years.  

Numerous friends, myself included are moving on next season.  People who have had passes at Cat for many years.  Doesn't matter how cheap the passes are.


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## Edd (Mar 19, 2021)

Prices for these are crazy good. You get so much for short $.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Good for you.
> 
> I don't know a single Cat or Attitash skier who have lengthy experience with both mountains that doesn't think Vail did a worse job running those mountains than at any time in the past ten years.
> 
> Numerous friends, myself included are moving on next season.  People who have had passes at Cat for many years.  Doesn't matter how cheap the passes are.


I've avoided those Mts this year based on reports like yours. I understand why you would be unhappy and want to.switch to a different pass. I have been unhappy with what they did at my closest Epic option Jack Frost. But it hasn't been a huge issue for me as I have 13 places on the pass I can drive to. It actually probably improved my ski experience by getting me to more often drive to further and better places.

Pretty sure I am going with Ikon next year - partially based on that - as Jack Frost option was for me their main advantage over Ikon which has nothing closer to me than Windham. But waiting to see Epic's offering before I decide.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

I think the people who you see most upset about Epic or Ikon are a bit different than you.  They tend to be mountain loyalists.  I certainly was for Wildcat and I was for Stowe for many years too when younger.  Folks were mostly happy with how those places were run.  Now not so much and we would be willing to pay significantly more to see things go back to how they were.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the people who you see most upset about Epic or Ikon are a bit different than you.  They tend to be mountain loyalists.  I certainly was for Wildcat and I was for Stowe for many years too when younger.  Folks were mostly happy with how those places were run.  Now not so much and we would be willing to pay significantly more to see things go back to how they were.


I can understand that. I am the furthest thing from a loyalist. I get bored skiing the same place too often. I have never skied the same NE mountain more than 2 days in a row, and the one year we had a pass to a single hill (Blue in PA) we found it had gotten real boring by the end of the season. 

I find mountain loyalists are often there for the camaraderie with folks they know as much as for the skiing, and that's never been my thing. I am a very social guy but my social life tends to revolve around my other passion - the people I make music with. So if hanging with regulars at the same Mt is your thing and/or you buy a place near a Mt and are wedded to it for that reason - I can see why low priced multi Mt passes by a corp that cares more about its huge CO operations than NE skiing may have killed something you love. And I am not trying to convert you.

I am just
1. Sharing the other side of the coin that my experience represents
2. Pointing out that this business model is doing well enough that doubling pass prices to keep crowds away is not about to happen any time soon and that it would upset far more skiers than it would please 
3. Suggesting that your best move if you want to avoid the crowds that come with this model is for you and your group of unhappy with Vail skier pals to agree on a still independent Mt to frequent instead - even if it requires a real estate transaction to do so - as in the end I expect Alterra and Vail are not gonna be much more different than Visa and Mastercard - and will also keep one another from raising prices too much so long as they both exist.


----------



## Mum skier (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be onboard with that.  If Vail said,  pick two mountains for unlimited access and then we will give you three days a piece everywhere else, that would be a better balance.


Yes I also think ithat would work for many people.  Chose 1 or 2 mountains as your home mountain for unlimited unrestricted and your base price depends on the two you choose.  Crotched and Sunapee are cheaper than Stowe/Snow sort of model. Then say 2-5 days at the other resort. You could still do a weeks trip west with the CO or California resorts being close enough to each other to fill the week even with limited days.
wildcat and Attitash combination could be free as they don’t open any lifts!


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 19, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I can understand that. I am the furthest thing from a loyalist. I get bored skiing the same place too often. I have never skied the same NE mountain more than 2 days in a row, and the one year we had a pass to a single hill (Blue in PA) we found it had gotten real boring by the end of the season.
> 
> I find mountain loyalists are often there for the camaraderie with folks they know as much as for the skiing, and that's never been my thing. I am a very social guy but my social life tends to revolve around my other passion - the people I make music with. So if hanging with regulars at the same Mt is your thing and/or you buy a place near a Mt and are wedded to it for that reason - I can see why low priced multi Mt passes by a corp that cares more about its huge CO operations than NE skiing may have killed something you love. And I am not trying to convert you.
> 
> ...



Nope

My loyalty to those mountains has everything to do with the terrain first and foremost.  

As for your Visa / MC analogy; I suggest you study a bit of history.  15 years ago people said the same about Intrawest and American skiing company.   The mighty can and do fall.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Nope
> 
> My loyalty to those mountains has everything to do with the terrain first and foremost.
> 
> As for your Visa / MC analogy; I suggest you study a bit of history.  15 years ago people said the same about Intrawest and American skiing company.   The mighty can and do fall.


I'm not saying Vail and Alterra are forever. I am saying that they are not that different and will keep pricing competitively with one another.

Certainly the loyalists I have known well (at Blue, Loon and Sunday River) have all valued the people and the location as much as the terrain. I grant you Wildcat and Stowe have more special terrain. But I'd still not want either one to be the sole place I skied all year personally. I crave variety and want to be able to go to the place I think will have the best combination of weather and conditions on any given day - so I find a pass with a range of options preferable.


----------



## Old Duderino (Mar 19, 2021)

Long time Sno-time skier/rider here from the Wash DC area.  I'm kinda on the fence about renewing my Epic pass but probably will because I can justify getting my money's worth out of it between a combo of local hill days and trips to either CO and/or maybe NE.  Due to covid I just got the eastern pass this year and I posted several pages ago on this thread about a potential trip I was going to take to Stowe that I ended up doing it and had a awesome time with great conditions there in early Feb.  I didn't get to take a CO trip due to covid this year so this Stowe trip really helped to scratch that itch.

I have limited ability to get away with a daughter who is a college athlete playing a spring sport that's in season now so I'm contemplating the previously unthinkable that I was hoping to get some feedback from here.  She has a spring break bye week on the weekend of March 27th & 28th so I am actually pondering a road trip for a weekend at, yes Hunter.  The weather forecast is looking iffy at the moment which will be the ultimate decider but I'm hoping that because this is near the end of the season it won't be as bad as usual with crowds.  I took a couple of peeks at the webcam today and it didn't look so horrible with what appears to be good conditions (it was sunny and low 40's in DC so I'm guessing it was similar to slightly colder there).

 So any feedback on what to expect at Hunter on a late March weekend crowd wise would be appreciated as well as the current conditions there.  I could alter my plans and make a trip to Mt Snow but it's an additional 3+ hour drive for what I imagine is similar terrain and conditions.  TIA.


----------



## thebigo (Mar 20, 2021)

It is the twentieth of march at 9:30.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Mar 20, 2021)

thebigo said:


> It is the twentieth of march at 9:30.


Nothing else to do!  No lines on abbie but she’s slow. 
What are the odds Attitash is open until Easter?


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 20, 2021)

Old Duderino said:


> Long time Sno-time skier/rider here from the Wash DC area.  I'm kinda on the fence about renewing my Epic pass but probably will because I can justify getting my money's worth out of it between a combo of local hill days and trips to either CO and/or maybe NE.  Due to covid I just got the eastern pass this year and I posted several pages ago on this thread about a potential trip I was going to take to Stowe that I ended up doing it and had a awesome time with great conditions there in early Feb.  I didn't get to take a CO trip due to covid this year so this Stowe trip really helped to scratch that itch.
> 
> I have limited ability to get away with a daughter who is a college athlete playing a spring sport that's in season now so I'm contemplating the previously unthinkable that I was hoping to get some feedback from here.  She has a spring break bye week on the weekend of March 27th & 28th so I am actually pondering a road trip for a weekend at, yes Hunter.  The weather forecast is looking iffy at the moment which will be the ultimate decider but I'm hoping that because this is near the end of the season it won't be as bad as usual with crowds.  I took a couple of peeks at the webcam today and it didn't look so horrible with what appears to be good conditions (it was sunny and low 40's in DC so I'm guessing it was similar to slightly colder there).
> 
> So any feedback on what to expect at Hunter on a late March weekend crowd wise would be appreciated as well as the current conditions there.  I could alter my plans and make a trip to Mt Snow but it's an additional 3+ hour drive for what I imagine is similar terrain and conditions.  TIA.


This afternoon there are 10-15 min lines at Flyer, 5 at F lift. No lines for any other lift.


----------



## RichT (Mar 20, 2021)

Hunter was sweet today...............50's all next week watch the weather! Check the trail count!!!!


----------



## Mainer (Mar 20, 2021)

Attitash has been unskiable on a weekend this year. Skied black with the kids for closing day today. Lots of fun, lots of dirt. I love that they blast tunes all day at the base. Such a great vibe. Wildcat tomorrow, probably 1/2  hour lines, also probably last busy weekend, also probably one of the last weekends. But Top to bottom spring bumps can’t be beat.


----------



## Mainer (Mar 20, 2021)




----------



## kingslug (Mar 20, 2021)

Finally getting back to Hunter tomorrow..nothing sold out till end of season.. Get some more spring turns in.


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## andrec10 (Mar 20, 2021)

RichT said:


> Hunter was sweet today...............50's all next week watch the weather! Check the trail count!!!!


It was nice today. No way they make it till April 11th! Trail count will plummet this week. I already put away my new skis. Rock skis from here on out!


----------



## thebigo (Mar 20, 2021)

Shit, if we are posting pictures, liver and onions at the door tonight:


----------



## Edd (Mar 20, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Shit, if we are posting pictures, liver and onions at the door tonight:


Uh, wow. My parents made me eat that. I hoped there was a law against serving it as food.


----------



## Mainer (Mar 20, 2021)

Pizza at the door is probably best in the valley. Just loved that the moat is even giving attitash shit about the slow triple. 302 west has liver and onion on the kids menu, cost priceless


----------



## thebigo (Mar 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> Uh, wow. My parents made me eat that. I hoped there was a law against serving it as food.


Liver and onions is awesome.


----------



## Cobbold (Mar 21, 2021)

Edd said:


> Uh, wow. My parents made me eat that. I hoped there was a law against serving it as food.


Agree with edd, have ptsd from that as a kid


----------



## faceplant (Mar 22, 2021)

'' Vail Resorts announces a better than expected 28.4 percent decrease in revenue for the quarter ended January 31st. Season to date through March 7th, skier visits are down 8.2 percent, lift revenue is down 8.9 percent, ski school revenue down 43.2 percent, dining revenue down 56.9 percent and retail/rental revenue down 31.6 percent.'


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2021)

Mainer said:


> View attachment 50985


Slow Chair Tripel with what appears to be a quad chair.  I take it that this is a play on the Attitash Triple?


----------



## JimG. (Mar 22, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Liver and onions is awesome.


Here's another vote for liver and onions.

Also very good for you.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Here's another vote for liver and onions.
> 
> Also very good for you.


When made well, it can be delicious  
When made cafeteria style, not so much...


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> When made well, it can be delicious
> When made cafeteria style, not so much...


I can't even handle the smell, triggers bad childhood memories.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 23, 2021)

I used to cook at a diner back in Western PA while in High School and LIver and Onions was the Monday special.  Its been 25 years and i can still smell that shit cooking and it almost makes me gag. 

The senior citizens would pack that place on Monday evenings though.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Mar 23, 2021)

FYI, “We are deeply saddened by yesterday’s unspeakable tragedy in Boulder, Colorado. Just miles from our company’s headquarters, Boulder is home to many of our employees who are devastated by this senseless act of violence in their community. We offer our sincerest and most heartfelt condolences. Out of respect for all of those impacted, we have decided to postpone today’s planned announcement and pass launch until Wednesday, March 24.”


----------



## JimG. (Mar 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> When made well, it can be delicious
> When made cafeteria style, not so much...


Cafeteria style = consistency of leather.

Chief Martindale diner off route 23 on Taconic makes excellent liver and onions.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

If I'm eating liver then it better be foie gras.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 23, 2021)

Denver post let it slip









						Vail Resorts slashes Epic Pass prices by 20% for next season, saving pass-holders nearly $200
					

Vail Resorts slashed the price of its Epic Pass by 20% for the 2021-2022 ski season, which means skiers will save around $200 for a season pass




					webcache.googleusercontent.com
				




If so this will only make the crowds worse next year.  I think I am done with the Epic Pass


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2021)

So it’s about killing the competition not about making money now or providing a pleasurable experience.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2021)

well, that makes sense, piece of shit lowest common denominator products should be priced accordingly.

so vail resorts will be even more crowded due to cheaper passes and no capacity control.

enjoy that, gapers.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm a midweek skier so for me this is a good deal and super tempting but I'm out I would rather spend my money on other areas


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## PAabe (Mar 23, 2021)

If they are really that cheap I would have to consider getting it if only to ski Roundtop weeknights
Honestly could do Epic local+Indy and spend not a whole lot more than I already do on lift tickets for a whole lot more skiing potentially


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## PAabe (Mar 23, 2021)

If they offered a Roundtop only or weekday only or nights only pass priced below the northeast pass I would definitely be interested but I don't really have a lot of desire to ski any Vail areas other than Roundtop after hearing about the crowds and management this year.  I guess that is not their business model though - they want people to go spend money at the resorts.


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Denver post let it slip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow...I thought Katz recently said they "learned a lot about crowds and capacity this year" and were doing something to address that. Lowering your price and getting even more people to your resorts is certainly the opposite of that.

On a side-note - Dear Ikon/Alterra - do NOT even attempt to compete with this foolishness. I'd much rather pay a bit of a premium for less crowds on the slopes.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 23, 2021)

What's the chances that is a fake article?


----------



## mbedle (Mar 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> What's the chances that is a fake article?


Good point!!! - it appears to be fake.


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## thebigo (Mar 23, 2021)

What a bunch of incompetent boobs. They are weeks behind the competition in announcing pricing, hype some big change and then are not even able to control their own message? Who is running this place?

Edit - would be an elaborate fake article but I am hoping it is not the whole story.


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## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Good point!!! - it appears to be fake.


I'm not so sure about that. Someone would have had to hack the Denver Post's website (or hack Google's cache services...). It makes complete sense that the Denver Post would have an article ready to post with the information that Epic was going to announce today. Just probably a slight mix-up in timing with them posting the article briefly before being told by Epic that the announcement would be delayed.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2021)

pretty lame pointless thing to bother faking. they just published it premature.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Wow...I thought Katz recently said they "learned a lot about crowds and capacity this year" and were doing something to address that. Lowering your price and getting even more people to your resorts is certainly the opposite of that.



That is interesting.  Looks like that they are trying to smooth over their issues with a cheaper offering to make people happy.  Sounds like a slightly desperate move to me.  If their product is so awesome, why not at least hold the line on price?  




cdskier said:


> On a side-note - Dear Ikon/Alterra - do NOT even attempt to compete with this foolishness. I'd much rather pay a bit of a premium for less crowds on the slopes.


Rusty Gregory and the new Deer Valley President did a virtual town hall on "Leadership" last night in Park City.  I will post the link when I get a chance.  The talking points and marketing lines were in full force.  Despite multiple reassurances that they were "not blowing smoke", I had a hard time seeing with all the air pollution.  Some highlights:


Alterra is so new that they have "no idea" how many employees they actually have.  They are also not really "much" of a company but instead coordinate and collaborate with their own resorts and their partners.
The new DV President looks like he is 35 years old.  He does not have a lot of experience.  He did not talk much.  He said that DV is "the jewel" of Alterra and was really impressed with his employees.  He said he wants to do a retreat this summer with his leadership to "develop a plan" for the resort.  That seems about four years too late.  He also tacitly admitted that Ikon is resulting in more people and he wants to "revisit it."  He was adamant that the lines were due to "COVID" and not being able to load chairs fully.  Almost in the same breath he admitted that Ikon had "50% more pass sales" this season than before.  
The first hot button issue was the $500 increase in DV Senior Season Passes and cutting the Ikon Pass benefit that came with those passes.  With a smug smile, the new DV President said he had to "make ends meet", that the increased price made the pass worth "about 7-8 days" of skiing to break even, and was final.  Rusty joked that he is not local (basically throwing the guy under the bus) and that he supported the price increases "but" if the market thinks that Alterra is wrong then people would leave and Alterra would reconsider.  
Rusty said that he has to appease three constituencies with "limited resources":  customers, employees, and financiers/ownership.  Without realizing it, he clearly implied that ownership is first by the fact that he spent most of his time talking about the "expectations" of ownership and investors.
Rusty "promised" that $200 mill in upgrades are coming for Alterra Resorts.  
Rusty pled with locals to be "more open minded" about Ikon and to share the slopes with the "diverse" clientele that Ikon brings.  He took a page right from a PR session by then going on about how important "diversity" is for skiing and that it is not a sport for old white guys.  
Rusty said that they are "very concerned" about crowding and degrading the experience.  He said that Alterra "listens."  
As if high on something, Rusty then waxed poetic about the Ikon Pass and how it brings people to the mountains "to experience their best selves."  As to plans, "we are looking forward to morphing the Ikon Pass into a lifestyle platform with more offerings."  Whatever the hell that means.  
Rusty openly advocated against a national minimum wage.  He said Alterra needs flexibility to pay people in different markets.  I was appalled that he made a political comment in this charged time.  
As to those $8.00 lift attendants and staff, Rusty recognized that affordable housing and the communities are important to Alterra.  Alterra has not "forced" its corporate values onto its resorts.  He promised that we would see Alterra "invest" in its communities soon. 

I'm sure that there is more to highlight.  I was happy that they appeared, disappointed in the general platitudes and goals, and disgusted that they implied that locals are xenophobes.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> pretty lame pointless thing to bother faking. they just published it premature.


Agreed. And if it was faked, someone put a lot of effort into it to make it extremely realistic.

My money is on it being real and just published prematurely (before being taken back down).


----------



## drjeff (Mar 23, 2021)

The  discounts, if true, appear to be similar to what they gave even the folks who used their Epic's lots of times during the COVID shortened '19-'20 season.

And if the price for the EPIC local is as listed in the article, and the benefits/restrictions the same as for tis season, I'd be paying the same I did for this season, and be quite happy with that to be honest.


----------



## Teleskier (Mar 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> What's the chances that is a fake article?


Earlier today another paper had leaked it too... google captured it... but when I went there the article was already taken down. So that's two mistakes.... feels real... wasn't today the day Vail said to expect big news??


----------



## cdskier (Mar 23, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> Earlier today another paper had leaked it too... google captured it... but when I went there the article was already taken down. So that's two mistakes.... feels real... wasn't today the day Vail said to expect big news??


Yes, then Epic pushed the announcement to tomorrow due to the shooting in Boulder.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 23, 2021)

I thought the big announcement was gonna be they microchip all their customers for maximum gains. Bummer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I thought the big announcement was gonna be they microchip all their customers for maximum gains. Bummer.


That's the "other" announcement.


----------



## xlr8r (Mar 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The  discounts, if true, appear to be similar to what they gave even the folks you used their Epic's lots of times during the COVID shortened '19-'20 season.
> 
> And if the price for the EPIC local is as listed in the article, and the benefits/restrictions the same as for tis season, I'd be paying the same I did for this season, and be quite happy with that to be honest.


Good point.  This essentially is not discounting the pass price, but keeping it the same for all their loyal passholders who got the 20% COVID discount for this year.  Its just marketing spin to their core customer base.

I am out, even though my aunt and uncle recently bought place in Bartlett NH.  Its just not worth it to deal with the crowds and the piss poor management.  As I get older quality is becoming more and more important than price and quantity,


----------



## JimG. (Mar 23, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> As I get older quality is becoming more and more important than price and quantity,


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 23, 2021)

Couldn't be happier with rumors. I ❤ cheap ski passes. Will stick with Epic if so. 

Article no longer up - what were prices listed for each kind of pass?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Couldn't agree more.


Yep

No freaking way I'd buy an Epic Pass again with this lowest common denominator model.  Not worth the crowding headaches even if it was free


----------



## RichT (Mar 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Yep
> 
> No freaking way I'd buy an Epic Pass again with this lowest common denominator model.  Not worth the crowding headaches even if it was free


Unless you're a weekday skier..........then it's game-on!!


----------



## mbedle (Mar 24, 2021)

I guess it was real, and that really sucks.....


----------



## Mainer (Mar 24, 2021)

I’ve been in 1/2 hr lines at wildcat and attitash this year on a weekday. Never seen that before. I don’t know if it because of wfh or the cheap passes. I skied attitash a couple sundays this year, scary crowded. Wildcat has been less busy, but still consistently 20 to 30 minute lines on a Sunday. The average clientele at wc used to be dirtbags. Now it’s out of control novices, or people that should be in rei commercials. As a local with little kids that want to ski more and more, looks like I’m going somewhere else next year. Which really suck because attitash/wildcat has by far the best terrain in mwv. Hour + lines next year.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2021)

RichT said:


> Unless you're a weekday skier..........then it's game-on!!



Then make the weekday passes incredibly cheap and weekend access more expensive.  

I'd propose a structure of

Seven day + holidays 
Seven day with holiday blackout
Sunday through Friday plus blackouts
Midweek. 

I've also suggested a home mountain or two designation with very limited access elsewhere; like 3-5 days a season.  

At least for their more premium properties, offering full access for as cheap as they're doing?  Hard pass


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 24, 2021)

While great for my pocket book,  this sucks from a crowding perspective.  Pretty clear they couldn't care less about the "experience".

Also I don't believe they were limiting people with reservations this season.   Roundtop had Holiday lines every Saturday by 10 AM.  THAT NEVER HAPPENED pre-VAIL.

I don't have an option except to try and ski as much as I can mid week and ski for an hour and a half on weekends.  Maybe they could at least move the start time to 8 AM on weekends as most people likely won't come that early and bring back night skiing 7 days a week.  

As far as using the pass up north or out west I guess try to ski during the week only...


Where's BG I'd love to hear his financial take on this.   (no sarcasm) 

This has to be the beginning of the end right?  they can't possibly keep this financial model up forever.  Hard to believe that a public company is trying to lower prices to increase revenue.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 24, 2021)

In light of the news that Epic pass prices are remaining unchanged for renewing skiers, some of you folks who feel Epic Local Pass holders don't deserve unlimited non holiday access to Stowe will be psyched that they are limiting us to 10 such days.

Had been seriously considering switch to Ikon but with this deal on rates I expect to make it our third straight season on Epic.

Gonna go with Local not NE version as holiday blackouts on Hunter and all VT resorts mean I would definitely spend more in those periods than I would save with this option. Hopefully that will drive the Holiday skiers more over to the NH mountains too.


----------



## Mainer (Mar 24, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Hopefully that will drive the Holiday skiers more over to the NH mountains too.


You suck. That is all


----------



## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Had been seriously considering switch to Ikon but with this deal on rates I expect to make it our third straight season on Epic.


Same here. 

I think this price cut is a temporary thing, for 21/22 season only. After that, either Ikon will match it by lowering their pass price, or Vail will raise it "per normal". So I'll take advantage of this one more year. Then switch when their prices are comparable.


----------



## thebigo (Mar 24, 2021)

This is the worst possible outcome. They have gone the planet fitness model, make it so cheap that people do not bother canceling. This is exactly what ASC did near the end.

Epic is no longer a viable standalone pass, at best it is an addon. No idea what we are going to do next year, need to put it all in a spreadsheet.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2021)

I'd point out that while people express the greatest concern with lift lines, just as big of an issue is snow quality in the East.  Trails are just going to get scraped down to hardpack that much faster.  This will require much more snowmaking to resurface trails.  At least in New Hampshire, Vail absolutely sucked at snowmaking this winter.  The roll out was slow and their willingness to periodically resurface was far less than Peak.  

Vails slogan is, "The Experience of a lifetime".  I'll echo Jimmy in that they absolutely don't give a shit about the experience adopting this model. 

Less people at higher margins is the direction I was hoping they'd take.  New England simply doesn't have the terrain acreage, lodge space and lift infrastructure to handle the number of people they're trying to cram in.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> New England simply doesn't have the terrain acreage, lodge space and lift infrastructure to handle the number of people they're trying to cram in.



Luckily some places don't have the parking spaces either.


----------



## FBGM (Mar 24, 2021)

Id rather move to a trailer park in Florida and breed raccoons then buy an Epic Pass at some discount rate. They could hand those out for free and I’d still avoid those resorts.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

Katz last week:
"For anyone worried that the absence of a reservation system will lead to longer lift lines, we have extensive learnings from this season around lift loading efficiencies and are implementing new strategies to materially reduce wait times.
...
Amidst the hardships of this last year, we have come away with many lessons learned, a heightened sense of the importance of recreating on our mountains, and a renewed commitment to live up to our mission of providing you an _Experience of a Lifetime_."

Katz this week:
Forget about what I said last week about reducing lift lines and caring about your experience. I meant to send that e-mail out on April 1st. I'm actually lowering pass prices 20% in an effort to further increase our season pass marketshare and test how many people we can cram into each of our resorts.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 24, 2021)

Truth  

they have officially stated that they don't give a shit about the experience.


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2021)




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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2021)

Lots of time to meet new friends in the hour+ lines next year if thats the experience you’re looking for.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

thebigo said:


> This is the worst possible outcome. They have gone the planet fitness model, make it so cheap that people do not bother canceling. This is exactly what ASC did near the end.


Exactly.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Lots of time to meet new friends in the hour+ lines next year if thats the experience you’re looking for.


Alterra and Vail want to hire you for their marketing departments.


----------



## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> they have officially stated that they don't give a shit about the experience.


Did anyone notice the price reduction is for everyone, not just for previous passholder renewing? 

If you wonder how much Vail care about its customers, you have your answers right there.

It's pretty simple. Vail wants to eat Alterra's lunch! By offering a 20% lower price for EVERYONE, it wants to turn Ikon passholders into Epic holders. As for the side effect of over-crowding? They couldn't care less.


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## slatham (Mar 24, 2021)

All those skiers in line at Mt Snow are going to go out West now that Covid will be dealt with by next winter. Western resorts don't have any issues with lines


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## SnowRock (Mar 24, 2021)

Don't love Vail or Epic, but as a longtime reader before joining this forum, it is somewhat hilarious to see people complaining about pass prices being low when for years so many of the posts on this forum were complaining about pass prices being high or looking for ways to find discounts, BOGOs, etc.  The Stowe complaining in particular is funny as I remember every year multiple posters criticizing AIG for their prices,  trying to be a premium resort with all the "Steuax" stuff .. now we want it to go back to that model? 

Seems like some want to go back to the days of super high single mountain season pass prices with quirky ways to find discounts, so only those in the know can ski for cheap and weekend crowds are lessened. Things like the Vermont Travel Club Card, ski club/council days, and early days of the Mountain Collective were great for that sort of stuff.... but not sure we will be going back to that.

I also don't know how we can make assumptions about lift lines next year based on this year. This year we have a ton of companies still operating under total WFH status... especially in NY and Boston. Not to mention uphill capacity being limited by 50% or more depending upon the type of lift.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2021)

It's not one way or the other.  A happy medium can be achieved.


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## slatham (Mar 24, 2021)

Katz isn't going give a shit about what we think, but I'll bet he's paying attention to the stock dropping and analysts being surprised by move.


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 24, 2021)

Vail is strategizing that by lowering pass prices and therefore increasing the number of daily visitors that ancillary revenue producing departments (F&B, Lodging, Rentals, Lessons) will more than offset their 20% discounting of pass prices. 

These are higher margin areas I suspect.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It's not one way or the other.  A happy medium can be achieved.



Exactly. Stowe's pass prices at one point were close to 2K if I remember correctly. That WAS overpriced. But <$800 now is definitely under-priced. There's a big gap between those 2 numbers. They went from 1 extreme to the other...


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## SnowRock (Mar 24, 2021)

So have we ever had the happy medium then? And who's medium are we judging it by? For some, these multi-pass products work out well. For others they want their home mountain ski-on on Saturdays but a price they deem reasonable. Its hard.

I am a weekend warrior mostly (except for this year) so believe me, don't love the idea of adding more crowds to my experience, but there are lots of options now. With the Epic prices there are combinations where you could throw in an Indy pass or an IKON pass, or the MC and be close or even below where you were for some single mountain passes, no?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Don't love Vail or Epic, but as a longtime reader before joining this forum, it is somewhat hilarious to see people complaining about pass prices being low when for years so many of the posts on this forum were complaining about pass prices being high or looking for ways to find discounts, BOGOs, etc.  The Stowe complaining in particular is funny as I remember every year multiple posters criticizing AIG for their prices,  trying to be a premium resort with all the "Steuax" stuff .. now we want it to go back to that model?


Yes, that is true.  I remember those days.  Just shows how we have all changed and become those old men who don't want kids on our lawns.    

It just shows that in almost 20 years we have seen expensive passes, ASC cheapo passes, moderately priced passes that have crept up in price, and now back to bargain basement.


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## skef (Mar 24, 2021)

[There are a few sort-of-related threads I could have posted this on, but this one has the snappy subject line, so...]

Per this post on snowbrains, it appears that some MA/NY/etc. passholders are getting credit for passes they could not use in VT due to travel restrictions. Has anyone here seen action on that?

Reading between the lines a bit, the "Epic coverage" stuff on epicpass.com seems to indicate that if one hadn't requested coverage before December 14, one is SOL. I foolishly hadn't made any such request because their rules, at the time, didn't account for the travel restrictions. Do I have any hope now? If so, what should I do?

I've got a 4-day Epic Day pass that was 80% funded from an unsued-thanks-to-COVID 2019-2020 4-day pass... Hoping to realizing some skiing off of it one of these years.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> So have we ever had the happy medium then? And who's medium are we judging it by? For some, these multi-pass products work out well. For others they want their home mountain ski-on on Saturdays but a price they deem reasonable. Its hard.


As DHS said, yes.  I would look to pass prices in the 2008-2013 timeframe or so.  $900-1,000 got you a season pass to most decent areas.  Other places had lower pricepoint options.  Sugarbush, for example, had a pass option (Mount Ellen) for $499, another for $719 or so, and one at $950.  What did not exist were multimountain discount passes.  



SnowRock said:


> I am a weekend warrior mostly (except for this year) so believe me, don't love the idea of adding more crowds to my experience, but there are lots of options now. With the Epic prices there are combinations where you could throw in an Indy pass or an IKON pass, or the MC and be close or even below where you were for some single mountain passes, no?


Yeah, but what is the point of doing that?  I think that the perspective that a lot of us are operating with is the old model of "one pass, one mountain."  So maybe we just aren't seeing your POV of doing multiple mountains in a season.  If you want to do that, then I guess you could do an Epic and MC option.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Did anyone notice the price reduction is for everyone, not just for previous passholder renewing?
> 
> If you wonder how much Vail care about its customers, you have your answers right there.


Absolutely...And I much prefer a renewal discount model like Ikon rather than a "discount for everyone" model like Epic. At least the renewal discount model makes me feel like the company values and wants to reward my loyalty (whether that is actually true or not is another topic). To me the "everyone gets a discount" model is a slap in the face to loyal passholders.


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## SnowRock (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As DHS said, yes.  I would look to pass prices in the 2008-2013 timeframe or so.  $900-1,000 got you a season pass to most decent areas.  Other places had lower pricepoint options.  Sugarbush, for example, had a pass option (Mount Ellen) for $499, another for $719 or so, and one at $950.  What did not exist were multimountain discount passes.
> 
> 
> Yeah, but what is the point of doing that?  I think that the perspective that a lot of us are operating with is the old model of "one pass, one mountain."  So maybe we just aren't seeing your POV of doing multiple mountains in a season.  If you want to do that, then I guess you could do an Epic and MC option.


Yeah I think that's the fundamental difference... those who are locked into a home mountain and then those that aren't that like the multi-mountain flexibility. I get all the reasons this sucks if you are worried about your home mountain getting more crowded. And I am probably more on that side, being critical of this move, especially for it being open to everyone and not a renewal discount. Was just pointing out that 1K priced passes got a lot of groans for a long time on here.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Yeah I think that's the fundamental difference... those who are locked into a home mountain and then those that aren't that like the multi-mountain flexibility. I get all the reasons this sucks if you are worried about your home mountain getting more crowded. And I am probably more on that side, being critical of this move, especially for it being open to everyone and not a renewal discount. Was just pointing out that 1K priced passes got a lot of groans for a long time on here.


You are right that $1,000 passes were once deemed expensive.  But, as things go, it seemed that they moved from the $750-800 range up to $1,000 as the economy rebounded.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Absolutely...And I much prefer a renewal discount model like Ikon rather than a "discount for everyone" model like Epic. At least the renewal discount model makes me feel like the company values and wants to reward my loyalty (whether that is actually true or not is another topic). To me the "everyone gets a discount" model is a slap in the face to loyal passholders.


Loyalty.  That is the the argument that a lot of local passholders raise in response to their home resort joining Ikon or Epic.  As in, "I'm loyal to you, why can't you be loyal to me?"  I don't think that loyalty counts for much anymore.  Both Alterra and Vail are competing with one another.  Most big resorts have taken sides.  The sheer volume of passes sold and the macro economics is more important to these companies than loyalty it seems.  Maybe I am wrong.


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## HowieT2 (Mar 24, 2021)

sugarbushskier said:


> Vail is strategizing that by lowering pass prices and therefore increasing the number of daily visitors that ancillary revenue producing departments (F&B, Lodging, Rentals, Lessons) will more than offset their 20% discounting of pass prices.
> 
> These are higher margin areas I suspect.


and/or the growth in membership/pass sales, will charge the stock price whether gross revenue increases or not.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Loyalty.  That is the the argument that a lot of local passholders raise in response to their home resort joining Ikon or Epic.  As in, "I'm loyal to you, why can't you be loyal to me?"  I don't think that loyalty counts for much anymore.  Both Alterra and Vail are competing with one another.  Most big resorts have taken sides.  The sheer volume of passes sold and the macro economics is more important to these companies than loyalty it seems.  Maybe I am wrong.



I think there will be many people that will remain loyal to Ikon regionally mostly because they may prefer the resorts over Epic.  There will be many that cannot resist the lower price point and will switch.  I talked to a friend of mine that works at Breck and this is all about getting their pass holder numbers back up.   I think this discount for everyone was a great move because lots of people abandoned their passes due to the uncertainty of the season to come.  So they rebuild their pass sales and next year things will go back to normal.  - very smart.


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## Whitey (Mar 24, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> I also don't know how we can make assumptions about lift lines next year based on this year. This year we have a ton of companies still operating under total WFH status... especially in NY and Boston. Not to mention uphill capacity being limited by 50% or more depending upon the type of lift.


I think SnowRock has it right here.   I am surprised that on this forum of experienced skiers there isn't more recognition of the impact of CV19 lift loading restrictions had on lift lines this year.   Most areas were lucky if they were hitting 50% capacity on their lifts even on weekends.    In theory (and I believe) - next season we are basically going to be doubling the lift capacity (assuming they can fill chairs to 100% when needed).    That will make a huge difference.    And note that skiers visits, while down this year, weren't down by 50%.   I believe Vail is reporting an 11% decrease YOY.   So while the pass pricing will drive skier visits up next year, it's not like it's going to cause them to double.    Net/net should result in shorter lift lines next year, not longer.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 24, 2021)

MTN down 7% right now.  I guess Wall Street isn't exactly enamored with this approach


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> MTN down 7% right now.  I guess Wall Street isn't exactly enamored with this approach


That's probably more of a reaction to their recent financials and the decrease in revenue the last quarter.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That's probably more of a reaction to their recent financials and the decrease in revenue the last quarter.


I don't think so. Their stock shot up 11% after the recent earnings announcement. While they may have seen a decrease in revenue last quarter, their financials still exceeded analyst expectations. The 7% drop today is a direct reaction to the new pass pricing announcement.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> So have we ever had the happy medium then? And who's medium are we judging it by? For some, these multi-pass products work out well. For others they want their home mountain ski-on on Saturdays but a price they deem reasonable. Its hard.
> 
> I am a weekend warrior mostly (except for this year) so believe me, don't love the idea of adding more crowds to my experience, but there are lots of options now. With the Epic prices there are combinations where you could throw in an Indy pass or an IKON pass, or the MC and be close or even below where you were for some single mountain passes, no?



Copied from another thread on the same subject!

Question how many people will now go Epic instead of Ikon or better yet how many will go with both? For about $1300 (Ikon bas + Epic Local and even less if Veteran) The list of resorts you can ski is absolutely nuts!

Killington, Pico, Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Sugar Bush, Windham - Ikon
Stowe, Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Crotched, Wildcat, Attitash, Hunter - Epic

Head out West is it is dreamy!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I don't think so. Their stock shot up 11% after the recent earnings announcement. While they may have seen a decrease in revenue last quarter, their financials still exceeded analyst expectations. The 7% drop today is a direct reaction to the new pass pricing announcement.


Interesting.  Sounds like you follow it pretty closely.  Are you an investor?  

I guess it also confirms my thoughts yesterday about things not being as good for Vail.  If your product is so awesome, why discount it?


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I think SnowRock has it right here.   I am surprised that on this forum of experienced skiers there isn't more recognition of the impact of CV19 lift loading restrictions had on lift lines this year.   Most areas were lucky if they were hitting 50% capacity on their lifts even on weekends.    In theory (and I believe) - next season we are basically going to be doubling the lift capacity (assuming they can fill chairs to 100% when needed).    That will make a huge difference.    And note that skiers visits, while down this year, weren't down by 50%.   I believe Vail is reporting an 11% decrease YOY.   So while the pass pricing while drive skier visits up next year, it's not like it's going to cause them to double.    Net/net should result in shorter lift lines next year, not longer.



Logic makes sense for sure!


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Sounds like you follow it pretty closely.  Are you an investor?
> 
> I guess it also confirms my thoughts yesterday about things not being as good for Vail.  If your product is so awesome, why discount it?


Hah...nope. Only spent 5 minutes looking at the stock's recent activity (and related quick take articles from analysts) this morning.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 24, 2021)

while earnings were down, they beat their projection


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Sounds like you follow it pretty closely.  Are you an investor?
> 
> I guess it also confirms my thoughts yesterday about things not being as good for Vail.  If your product is so awesome, why discount it?



This has nothing to do with the quality of their product and all about getting back the to their peak pass sales prior to COVID.  Vail at their peak was at 950,000 passes sold.  When Ikon was announced sales dropped.  Last year sales came back to 850,000 but they want to break the 1 million mark!


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> This has nothing to do with the quality of their product and all about getting back the to their peak pass sales prior to COVID.  Vail at their peak was at 950,000 passes sold.  When Ikon was announced sales dropped.  Last year sales came back to 850,000 but they want to break the 1 million mark!


They sold 1.4M passes for this year according to the article from the Denver Post.


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## slatham (Mar 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> MTN down 7% right now.  I guess Wall Street isn't exactly enamored with this approach


Analysts were caught off guard by the magnitude of the pass price reduction. You have to sell a lot more passes and/or burgers and beers to make up the price cut.


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## mbedle (Mar 24, 2021)

They are selling them - waiting room is back up and running..


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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2021)

Im sure they’re going to sell an unprecedented amount of passes. I’m riding the Vail-hate bandwagon but if I had the disposable income I’d get the Northeast Midweek Pass just because it’s worth it for the Stowe trips alone. Seems Vail are hedging on people buying their pass and forgoing day tickets since after three trips you’ve paid off the cheapest of the passes. Is this sustainable in the long term or going to make the loyal customers happy, probably not. Only time will tell.


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## Dickc (Mar 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It's not one way or the other.  A happy medium can be achieved.


That made me think of this Blondie song....


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## kendo (Mar 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd point out that while people express the greatest concern with lift lines, just as big of an issue is snow quality in the East.  Trails are just going to get scraped down to hardpack that much faster.  This will require much more snowmaking to resurface trails.  At least in New Hampshire, *Vail absolutely sucked at snowmaking this winter.* *The roll out was slow and their willingness to periodically resurface was far less than Peak.*



doubt snowmaking will improve significantly going forward.  

Not when Katz reports on his recent investors call ...  _While the company’s business has declined, the company still has plenty of liquid assets, including $1.4 billion in cash on hand. Katz attributed the company’s financial position to both guest loyalty and a “*thoughtful, disciplined approach to expenses*.”_

Snowmaking = expense.  A lot of snowmaking = undisciplined expenses.   If they were 'thoughtful' about their eastern resorts, they'd at least add a snowmaking icon to their trail report templates.


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## abc (Mar 24, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Vail are hedging on people buying their pass and forgoing day tickets since after three trips you’ve paid off the cheapest of the passes


That's the kind of math Vail would love people to perpetuate!

Raise the day ticket rate sky high. Then all of a sudden, the "breakeven point" drops significantly even if the season pass price didn't change. Or raise the daily rate high enough, even an increase of the season pass still end up "breaking even" faster!!! 

Vail isn't "hedging their bet" on anything. They did this on purpose. And they know what the result will be. As long as the day ticket is super expensive, whatever the season pass price, people will still be "better off" buying a pass!


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## kingslug (Mar 24, 2021)

Its why SB day tix for weekend was up to 169.00
Only people there had a pass...and me.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Its why SB day tix for weekend was up to 169.00
> Only people there had a pass...and me.



That was part of their strategy to limit ticket sales to manage capacity as opposed to any reservation requirements for passholders...








						Shedding Some Light On Our Ticket Strategy - SugarBlog
					

"Why are lift tickets so expensive!?" Learn some more on how lift ticket availability and pricing was determined for the 2020/21 season.




					blog.sugarbush.com


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## Teleskier (Mar 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Its why SB day tix for weekend was up to 169.00


Sarcasm: That should make the people who want to make skiing more exclusive and expensive to keep the day-tripper riffraff out happy? 

Didn't Stratton already invent that strategy years ago?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> Sarcasm: That should make the people who want to make skiing more exclusive and expensive to keep the day-tripper riffraff out happy?
> 
> Didn't Stratton already invent that strategy years ago?


In part.  The real reason is to persuade people to buy a season pass.  In this case, an Ikon Pass.  Vail came up with that strategy.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

And Sugarbush is now $169.00 a day?  That is more than a day ticket to Snowbird on a regular non-holiday weekend.

After reading their blog post, they discuss "dynamic pricing".  I find this similar to buying a plane ticket--the price is always fluctuating based upon demand.  It's kind of frustrating if you are one of the few who still buys day tickets.  Once again the strategy is to get folks to stop buying day tickets and to make a more significant financial commitment.  Besides, while day ticket margins are better the risk is higher.  What I mean is that dayticket skiers and riders are less frequent and more fickle.  A bad snow weekend?  Fewer day tickets sold.  A powder day?  More day tickets sold.  And, as Win has pointed out before to Sugarbush Skiers and Riders, in a typical season the number of days to "make money" are relatively few--pretty much every Saturday, Sunday, and holiday.  Over an entire season that is not a lot.  Plus there is more competition for day ticket sales.  So I take the comments about a drop in day ticket sales with a grain of salt.  The WHOLE point of their model is to stop selling day tickets.  OF COURSE the number is going to go down.


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## thebigo (Mar 24, 2021)

I made sure I ran the numbers today before discussing with the wife tonight. If you are a family that hopes to ski Halloween thru memorial day every year the vail pass is not even a good deal, not to mention all the other bs. Vail believes that pushing the wildcat season past four months is some benevolent gift to passholders. The result is day tickets through November and a k spring pass - both add up fast when buying for a family.

We are planning ikon base plus ragged next year. Kids will do seasonal program at ragged. Ikon will cover sr early season, sugarbush February vacation, loaf April vacation, k Saturdays in May and mix in the loon days midweek. Ragged also gets 50% off at pats for a few weeknights.

Maybe try to find a three month winter rental on newfound

This will be my first year without a crotch/attitash/Cat pass in as long as I can remember. I do not want to leave but the sheer volume of abuse inflicted on the new hampshire passholder by vail has broken me.


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## snoseek (Mar 24, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I made sure I ran the numbers today before discussing with the wife tonight. If you are a family that hopes to ski Halloween thru memorial day every year the vail pass is not even a good deal, not to mention all the other bs. Vail believes that pushing the wildcat season past four months is some benevolent gift to passholders. The result is day tickets through November and a k spring pass - both add up fast when buying for a family.
> 
> We are planning ikon base plus ragged next year. Kids will do seasonal program at ragged. Ikon will cover sr early season, sugarbush February vacation, loaf April vacation, k Saturdays in May and mix in the loon days midweek. Ragged also gets 50% off at pats for a few weeknights.
> 
> ...


I need them to figure things out or sell some shit off before they get a dime from me. I was reluctant this year. I got my money's worth but can do better.


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Well it worked for SB. I was there when it snowed every day and it was pretty much empty. Stowe was packed. It was worth the 169.00 x4 to get away from that for a few days.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Well it worked for SB. I was there when it snowed every day and it was pretty much empty. Stowe was packed. It was worth the 169.00 x4 to get away from that for a few days.


For 1 more ticket you could have a Icon base


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## RichT (Mar 25, 2021)

As a mostly Hunter skier, this year was a double edged sword. Long lift lines with NOT skied off trails. I'm afraid that this new pricing will bring even more people to the Mtn on weekends, resulting in the place being skied off by 10:30! Thank GOD i'm retired now, so no more weekends, BUT I think the days of empty weekdays are over for now.


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## kingslug (Mar 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> For 1 more ticket you could have a Icon base


Yup. but that was 2 tix for each of us... we have one now. I used to hit SB a few times and it was nowhere that expensive so it was no big deal. The insanity at Stowe drove me there..and I like SB better than Stowe now, so I will be there more.


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## NYDB (Mar 25, 2021)

I wonder if Vail will even notice losing 10k passes in NH if they are selling 1million of these things.


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## drjeff (Mar 25, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I wonder if Vail will even notice losing 10k passes in NH if they are selling 1million of these things.


Notice? Probably

Care about it? That may be the real question


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Well it worked for SB. I was there when it snowed every day and it was pretty much empty. Stowe was packed. It was worth the 169.00 x4 to get away from that for a few days.



That was fairly typical of SB midweek though even when they had cheaper tickets...


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## Mainer (Mar 25, 2021)

I have a feeling vt will be more crowded next year. Vt had a lot more restrictions than nh, I lot of people were avoiding vt last year because of that. The killer for the nh epics is they are unrestricted for holiday weeks, Vermont’s are restricted. Going to be packed for those weeks. Is vail going to run the nh properties better next year. Or is it going to be cheap pass, so you get what you pay for.


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## NYDB (Mar 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Notice? Probably
> 
> Care about it? That may be the real question


They might take it as confirmation that they can keep running the places like crap.  

"See, skier visits are down anyway.  No need to replace that summit triple, or to push the snowmaking to extend the season at Wildcat''


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd point out that while people express the greatest concern with lift lines, just as big of an issue is snow quality in the East.  Trails are just going to get scraped down to hardpack that much faster.  This will require much more snowmaking to resurface trails.  At least in New Hampshire, Vail absolutely sucked at snowmaking this winter.  The roll out was slow and their willingness to periodically resurface was far less than Peak.
> 
> Vails slogan is, "The Experience of a lifetime".  I'll echo Jimmy in that they absolutely don't give a shit about the experience adopting this model.


You are all waaay too cynical.    I have some intel as I'll just say that I took a job at one of the VR ski mtns this year, but I am not a homer.   It wasn't a financial decision that caused the snow making and grooming problems. The problems with snowmaking early in the season were related to the same problems throughout the ski business this year;  staffing and turnover.    The loss of seasonal international employees due to CV19 restrictions really hurt them for staffing.   And furloughing most of their employees in March of 2020 resulted in significant turnover as those people found other jobs or just disappeared.    And as everyone knows now - the idea that all of the people who worked in F&B and hotels/lodging would just somehow magically flip over to jobs in tickets, grooming, snowmaking, etc never happened.   Instead they just disappeared, vanished.   I would also note that November and early December were not good months for snow-making in the northeast.   We had a lot of really warm days and struggled to build the base early. 

The start to the ski season was a sh1t show and everyone was working lifts, shoveling snow, etc. because they couldn't re-staff fast enough.    You could fault them for not recognizing that earlier and being better prepared, but opening a ski area amidst CV19 restrictions was not fun and there was no road map on how to handle it.   We were behind on EVERYTHING that you would ordinarily be doing in the off-season to get ready for the next season.   People forget that it was significantly different in November than it is now.   There were legit concerns that the VT/NH/ME governors would close ski areas.    It was a mess but we had no options but to launch and do the best we could.

Vail's strategy is obvious:   Most believe that there is a huge pent up demand for travel & entertainment because everyone has been locked down for a year.  And the experience coming out of CV19 is that you are best doing something outdoors and not packed in with other people;  malls, theaters, amusement parks, etc are dead.   But go to a mountain and ski or mountain bike or ride the lift on a nice summer day - yup!  They are making moves to ride that wave for next season and capture a huge chunk of that market share.   It is actually pretty smart if you really think about it.


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## thebigo (Mar 25, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> They might take it as confirmation that they can keep running the places like crap.
> 
> "See, skier visits are down anyway.  No need to replace that summit triple, or to push the snowmaking to extend the season at Wildcat''


Your post left me nostalgic for the days when the summit triple was the greatest of our concerns. One positive from vail this year: we forgot all about the triple.

No Kachina all season.
No yankee during the week.
No yankee before january.
Complete lack of snowmaking effort at wildcat.
No singles line anywhere in NH.
Whales left to drain for several weeks before being pushed out.
Wildcat opening weeks after hunter.
Bullet proof whales and snowguns in the middle of lynx opening day.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> You are all waaay too cynical.    I have some intel as I'll just say that I took a job at one of the VR ski mtns this year, but I am not a homer.   It wasn't a financial decision that caused the snow making and grooming problems. The problems with snowmaking early in the season were related to the same problems throughout the ski business this year;  staffing and turnover.    The loss of seasonal international employees due to CV19 restrictions really hurt them for staffing.   And furloughing most of their employees in March of 2020 resulted in significant turnover as those people found other jobs or just disappeared.    And as everyone knows now - the idea that all of the people who worked in F&B and hotels/lodging would just somehow magically flip over to jobs in tickets, grooming, snowmaking, etc never happened.   Instead they just disappeared, vanished.   I would also note that November and early December were not good months for snow-making in the northeast.   We had a lot of really warm days and struggled to build the base early.
> 
> The start to the ski season was a sh1t show and everyone was working lifts, shoveling snow, etc. because they couldn't re-staff fast enough.    You could fault them for not recognizing that earlier and being better prepared, but opening a ski area amidst CV19 restrictions was not fun and there was no road map on how to handle it.   We were behind on EVERYTHING that you would ordinarily be doing in the off-season to get ready for the next season.   People forget that it was significantly different in November than it is now.   There were legit concerns that the VT/NH/ME governors would close ski areas.    It was a mess but we had no options but to launch and do the best we could.
> 
> Vail's strategy is obvious:   Most believe that there is a huge pent up demand for travel & entertainment because everyone has been locked down for a year.  And the experience coming out of CV19 is that you are best doing something outdoors and not packed in with other people;  malls, theaters, amusement parks, etc are dead.   But go to a mountain and ski or mountain bike or ride the lift on a nice summer day - yup!  They are making moves to ride that wave for next season and capture a huge chunk of that market share.   It is actually pretty smart if you really think about it.


Why didn’t other ski areas get effected the same by covid? They failed...


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## mbedle (Mar 25, 2021)

Looked at my account today and they added a section for credits. Maybe they are rethinking the credit issues.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Why didn’t other ski areas get effected the same by covid? They failed...



Exactly.  None of the local competition to Vails NH ski areas had the same issues.  I'd argue it WAS financial mismanagement by Vail.  They waited too long to hire people and I've read they offered lower wages than the competition.  So, the available employees went elsewhere.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> And furloughing most of their employees in March of 2020 resulted in significant turnover as those people found other jobs or just disappeared.


Do you think the government checks (and unemployment payment) may have kept people from taking the minimum wage jobs resorts offered?


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## snoseek (Mar 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Exactly.  None of the local competition to Vails NH ski areas had the same issues.  I'd argue it WAS financial mismanagement by Vail.  They waited too long to hire people and I've read they offered lower wages than the competition.  So, the available employees went elsewhere.


When you are competing against no questions asked, endless and boosted unemployment you have to pay decent. Anyone that's been lucky enough to be working in hospitality in the past year has been you've probably been short staffed (more than usual) and working OT. there has been plenty of open jobs all along. Vail didn't adjust to it. 12 bucks an hour for a resort job walking in or double that to file every week and a cheap pass? Yeah good luck finding help lol


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## xlr8r (Mar 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Your post left me nostalgic for the days when the summit triple was the greatest of our concerns. One positive from vail this year: we forgot all about the triple.
> 
> No Kachina all season.
> No yankee during the week.
> ...


The no singles lines is a NH thing not a Vail thing.  I think all NH mountains got guidance from the state in December that officially stopped the use of singles lines that paired up two singles on opposite sides of a quad.  I noticed for the first couple weeks both Sunapee and Crotched were setting up singles lines to pair two singles up, but by January that stopped.  Having also skied Cannon and Waterville which also have quads in NH, those mountains also do not have singles lines this season.

I agree on everything else.  There is even more to add.  
-One of double doubles has also not run at all this season.
-Abenaki was not run midweek until mid season
-Bobcat was not run until February
-Sunapee only having one run open after the huge December dump, when other trails could have opened on natural only.

The fact is that other ski areas planned for this season and succeeded even with the changes needed for Covid.  For instance Vail has done almost nothing to encourage people to eat, drink, rest outside, instead of come in the lodge.  Lots of mountains have increased deck or patio space, and created take out windows to allow people to buy food drinks without coming into the lodge, or have gotten food trucks to come to the mountain.  Vail has done none of that.  Vail is not letting its resorts be creative with finding solutions to this ever challenging season.  They instead have done the bare minimum.


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Exactly.  None of the local competition to Vails NH ski areas had the same issues.  I'd argue it WAS financial mismanagement by Vail.  They waited too long to hire people and I've read they offered lower wages than the competition.  So, the available employees went elsewhere.


Really?   "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues?   Come on.   If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it.   But at least be honest in your hate.     But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read".      And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit.   Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Really?   "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues?   Come on.   If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it.   But at least be honest in your hate.     But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read".      And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit.   Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?


Now you are changing your argument because your first argument failed. 
they failed but we’ll see if they fix the issue next season.


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## snoseek (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Really?   "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues?   Come on.   If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it.   But at least be honest in your hate.     But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read".      And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit.   Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?


I had an epic pass to ski wildcat and a cannon pass. The difference between how those two mountains ran this year was astounding. Because of that I had a much better experience at cannon therefore they get my pass money next year simple as that.

I will say the other epic mountains were doing better. I skied sunapee more than wildcat. Didn't see that one coming


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## xlr8r (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Really?   "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues?   Come on.   If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it.   But at least be honest in your hate.     But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read".      And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit.   Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?


Vail announced its acquistion of Peak in Summer 2019, and closed on Peak in Fall of 2019, about 6 months before Covid.  Last season was the transition season from Peak to Vail.  Before Covid, Vail should have been planning its integration of the Peak resorts into their systems and practices.  The start of this season was a full 12 months after the closing of the sale, and there is no excuse for integration of Peak resorts to not be complete by then.  The ink was dry long before this season started.


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

abc said:


> Do you think the government checks (and unemployment payment) may have kept people from taking the minimum wage jobs resorts offered?


Possibly.   But my best guess is they underestimated the mobility of the workforce and a lot of those people literally disappeared when they got furloughed.   And most ski areas are not exactly based in areas of high population density anytway.    If I were going by the stats - they are probably working in FL or TX now.    A lot probably moved into construction/home related businesses as the building and real estate businesses are booming in these ski area towns & nearby areas.    

VR did adjust their pay, you can argue "too little, too late".   But what they seem to be focusing on now is "affordable housing".    I think you will see a lot more hotels and rental properties converted to employee housing over the summer.    I think this is smarter than just going after the pay issue.   My belief is the #1 issue for people who take the lower paying jobs at a ski area is the lack of an affordable place to live that isn't 30-60 or more minutes away.   Addressing that may be the smartest path to fixing the staffing problem.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

lol. you like the taste of rob katz. that's gross.


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 25, 2021)

I find it interesting how high the expectations were related to Wildcat and Attitash.  I was not surprised at all,   It took Vail about a year+ to transition Stowe, Okemo, and Sunapee to their systems.  There is a point to be made, the sale close on Peak Resorts 6 months prior to everything being halted.  Then opening back up was tentative.  From what I see, Mount Snow is like the Crown Jewel of that transaction and I think Hunter will get love too - why not - closer to the big markets.  I think the northern mountains will have improved operations next season.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Really?   "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues?   Come on.   If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it.   But at least be honest in your hate.     But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read".      And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit.   Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?



I'll grant you that my pay disparity comment could potentially be inaccurate.  But that's what the locals in the valley were saying.

I'd say that Cannon, Bretton Woods, Cranmore and Loon are the primary competition for Attitash and Wildcat.  Yes, none of them had anywhere near the problems staffing lifts and snowmaking as Vail did at Wildcat and Attitash.  Attitash especially was an unmitigated disaster all season long. 

Maybe your ink drying point had something to do with it.  I'll grant you that as well.


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Vail announced its acquistion of Peak in Summer 2019, and closed on Peak in Fall of 2019, about 6 months before Covid.  Last season was the transition season from Peak to Vail.  Before Covid, Vail should have been planning its integration of the Peak resorts into their systems and practices.  The start of this season was a full 12 months after the closing of the sale, and there is no excuse for integration of Peak resorts to not be complete by then.  The ink was dry long before this season started.


I said the turmoil related to the sale/transition.   If you've ever been around a major corporate acquisition (I have, and not just VR/Peaks) then you would know it takes YEARS before the disruptions fully subside.    And your schedule/calendar is off.    All aspects of the financial transition were not complete until May 2020.   Peaks was still paying the bills in April of 2020.   They then got Dec/Jan/Feb of that ski season before CV19 blew everything up.    The integration was done, the dust settling from that absolutely was not. . .


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## dblskifanatic (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Possibly.   But my best guess is they underestimated the mobility of the workforce and a lot of those people literally disappeared when they got furloughed.   And most ski areas are not exactly based in areas of high population density anytway.    If I were going by the stats - they are probably working in FL or TX now.    A lot probably moved into construction/home related businesses as the building and real estate businesses are booming in these ski area towns & nearby areas.
> 
> VR did adjust their pay, you can argue "too little, too late".   But what they seem to be focusing on now is "affordable housing".    I think you will see a lot more hotels and rental properties converted to employee housing over the summer.    I think this is smarter than just going after the pay issue.   My belief is the #1 issue for people who take the lower paying jobs at a ski area is the lack of an affordable place to live that isn't 30-60 or more minutes away.   Addressing that may be the smartest path to fixing the staffing problem.



The difference between this season and next?  Work Visas!  That simple.  Many ski areas use foreign workers and that will make all the difference.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I said the turmoil related to the sale/transition.   If you've ever been around a major corporate acquisition (I have, and not just VR/Peaks) then you would know it takes YEARS before the disruptions fully subside.    And your schedule/calendar is off.    All aspects of the financial transition were not complete until May 2020.   Peaks was still paying the bills in April of 2020.   They then got Dec/Jan/Feb of that ski season before CV19 blew everything up.    The integration was done, the dust settling from that absolutely was not. . .


I've been involved with major corporate acquisitions as well. If the integration caused a disruption to daily operations that are critical to your business, then whoever was managing the integration did a poor job. Shit being messed up on the backend is one thing, but customer facing disruptions really shouldn't happen in a properly managed acquisition/integration.


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I had an epic pass to ski wildcat and a cannon pass. The difference between how those two mountains ran this year was astounding. Because of that I had a much better experience at cannon therefore they get my pass money next year simple as that.
> 
> I will say the other epic mountains were doing better. I skied sunapee more than wildcat. Didn't see that one coming


Meh on this point:  Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment.  Not surprising.   

An additional point all of you have missed - The cultural transition from Peaks to VR was significant in its impact on turnover.   Peaks was a lot looser and a lot of long-time employees were used to that and had grown accustomed to it.    No one likes change, even if it's for the better.    Vail is run like a major corporation and it has rules and ways doing things and it takes a lot of getting used to if that's not the waters you are used to swimming in.    The transition to VR did cause a lot of turnover and gasoline was thrown on that fire when a lot of those same employees who were struggling with the transition were furloughed.      VR probably should have done a better job recognizing and reacting to that.    I am sure if you gave Katz a couple of beers and he was "off the record" - he'd probably agree.


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## Mainer (Mar 25, 2021)

Attitash also has no jumps this year after having a good park for the last 30 years


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## snoseek (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Meh on this point:  Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment.  Not surprising.
> 
> An additional point all of you have missed - The cultural transition from Peaks to VR was significant in its impact on turnover.   Peaks was a lot looser and a lot of long-time employees were used to that and had grown accustomed to it.    No one likes change, even if it's for the better.    Vail is run like a major corporation and it has rules and ways doing things and it takes a lot of getting used to if that's not the waters you are used to swimming in.    The transition to VR did cause a lot of turnover and gasoline was thrown on that fire when a lot of those same employees who were struggling with the transition were furloughed.      VR probably should have done a better job recognizing and reacting to that.    I am sure if you gave Katz a couple of beers and he was "off the record" - he'd probably agree.


I lived through this at one of their other transitions 10 years ago. They lost alot of people, people that had made themselves valuable over the years. I'm sure they could have learned over the years how this sort of thing tends to play out and adjusted.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Meh on this point:  Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment.  Not surprising.



Huh?  Wildcat has a fraction of the staffing and infrastructure needs as Cannon.  Attitash is about the same


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

Cannon is state run. Does it have less infrastructure than wildcat?


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## Mainer (Mar 25, 2021)

What was strange about this season was with the reservation system you knew how many skiers were coming each day. If you have full parking lots and choose not to open 4 lifts at attitash and 2 at wildcat. That’s just poor management. Also they had mask nazis just walking around telling people to mask up. If they used those people to run another lift, it would prevent the huge lines. Increase social distance. Piss poor management


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## Whitey (Mar 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I lived through this at one of their other transitions 10 years ago. They lost alot of people, people that had made themselves valuable over the years. I'm sure they could have learned over the years how this sort of thing tends to play out and adjusted.


We're both assuming that "retention after transition" is the goal.   But if we are taking a cold hearted business approach to an acquisition/transition then there may be a "tear the bandaid off"  aspect of this.    If you are a major corporation managing a large acquisition you want the cultural transformation to happen as quickly as possible.   How to do that?   As painful as it may be in the short term - you are going to want people who can quickly adapt to your culture & methods staffing your operation.   And the people who don't quickly adapt?  Do you want that to drag out over years and possibly never happen?   No, get along or get out and as much as it hurts in the first year or two - eventually you are staffed with people who understand and implement how you want things done (because they either adapted quickly or because they were hired by you to replace the person who left because they couldn't adapt).    It's harsh but also logical and there could be a solid business case to be made that it is actually the smart play in managing a large acquisition.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Whitey said:


> We're both assuming that "retention after transition" is the goal.   But if we are taking a cold hearted business approach to an acquisition/transition then there may be a "tear the bandaid off"  aspect of this.    If you are a major corporation managing a large acquisition you want the cultural transformation to happen as quickly as possible.   How to do that?   As painful as it may be in the short term - you are going to want people who can quickly adapt to your culture & methods staffing your operation.   And the people who don't quickly adapt?  Do you want that to drag out over years and possibly never happen?   No, get along or get out and as much as it hurts in the first year or two - eventually you are staffed with people who understand and implement how you want things done (because they either adapted quickly or because they were hired by you to replace the person who left because they couldn't adapt).    It's harsh but also logical and there could be a solid business case to be made that it is actually the smart play in managing a large acquisition.


To be perfectly blunt, that's a piss-poor terrible attitude and stance. Having gone through multiple mergers over the years I can tell you the ones where the acquiring company tried to assimilate the people in the new acquisition into their culture are the ones that had the most problems and resulted in the lowest morale (among people from both sides of the acquisition/merger). The most successful mergers were the ones where the parent company realized that maybe there were things they could learn from the company they acquired and tried to take the best cultural aspects of each party to the merger.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

cdskier said:


> To be perfectly blunt, that's a piss-poor terrible attitude and stance. Having gone through multiple mergers over the years I can tell you the ones where the acquiring company tried to assimilate the people in the new acquisition into their culture are the ones that had the most problems and resulted in the lowest morale (among people from both sides of the acquisition/merger). The most successful mergers were the ones where the parent company realized that maybe there were things they could learn from the company they acquired and tried to take the best cultural aspects of each party to the merger.


Sounds like the difference between vail and alterra. Well at least in what they say.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Sounds like the difference between vail and alterra. Well at least in what they say.



It does and I'll be interested to see if what Alterra does in the next couple years matches what they say. Just finished listening to Rusty's latest interview on the Storm Skiing podcast and once again he seems to say a lot of the right things.


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## xlr8r (Mar 25, 2021)

Also keep in mind Sugarbush was purchased by Alterra more recently than the Peak Resorts Acquisition.  While I have heard reports of long time employees leaving there since the sale, there have been very few complaints about the operations, staffing, and service this season.


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## drjeff (Mar 25, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Also keep in mind Sugarbush was purchased by Alterra more recently than the Peak Resorts Acquisition.  While I have heard reports of long time employees leaving there since the sale, there have been very few complaints about the operations, staffing, and service this season.



Talk with Dan Egan about that and how the locals feel about how Alterra cut ties with him and his role as basically a Sugarbush Ambassador this season.....


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 25, 2021)

his role to ski for free and do no real work on a nice salary with benefits.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Talk with Dan Egan about that and how the locals feel about how Alterra cut ties with him and his role as basically a Sugarbush Ambassador this season.....


I think you mean John...

And I've said this before, as bad as I feel for John as he's a great guy, if it came down to a choice between him and cutting Mountain Ops budget, I'd say they made the right choice. Could it have been handled better? Yes. But overall that's a minor issue IMO and had virtually no impact on daily operations of their core business (i.e. skiing).


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## xlr8r (Mar 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Talk with Dan Egan about that and how the locals feel about how Alterra cut ties with him and his role as basically a Sugarbush Ambassador this season.....


As I said, I have heard of longtime employees leaving, and sure some were let go.  My point is that Sugarbush still has done a good job with operations despite the turnover, while Vail resorts have not.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 27, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> The no singles lines is a NH thing not a Vail thing.  I think all NH mountains got guidance from the state in December that officially stopped the use of singles lines that paired up two singles on opposite sides of a quad.  I noticed for the first couple weeks both Sunapee and Crotched were setting up singles lines to pair two singles up, but by January that stopped.  Having also skied Cannon and Waterville which also have quads in NH, those mountains also do not have singles lines this season.
> 
> I agree on everything else.  There is even more to add.
> -One of double doubles has also not run at all this season.
> ...


Ragged had a singles line all year. Its a mountain by mountain thing.


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## 2Planker (Mar 27, 2021)

WMV is one of the best ski area's in the country.
We have 2 Vail resorts here and EVERYBODY knows that Vail totally dropped the ball this past year.
Locals, businesses, not to mention  all the skies/riders. Basically the whole MWV HATES VAIL.
Very Sad, but also very true.
Best thing that could ever happen for the MWV would be for them to unload both Attitash & The Cat to someone who actually cares about the resorts and the area.
More to come later.........


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## eatskisleep (Mar 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> WMV is one of the best ski area's in the country.
> We have 2 Vail resorts here and EVERYBODY knows that Vail totally dropped the ball this past year.
> Locals, businesses, not to mention  all the skies/riders. Basically the whole MWV HATES VAIL.
> Very Sad, but also very true.
> ...


I hope so too. It really would be the best thing to happen. Local ownership would be great. Or even state like Cannon would be light years past the current management.


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## thebigo (Mar 27, 2021)

Skied wildcat this am, currently tubing with kids at cranmore. The stark contrast between a well run operation and the disaster up the street could not be more apparent. Vail needs to leave our valley.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Skied wildcat this am, currently tubing with kids at cranmore. The stark contrast between a well run operation and the disaster up the street could not be more apparent. Vail needs to leave our valley.


 what makes the vail places such disaster areas? I'm gonna buy the epix pass I think. thx!


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## snoseek (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> what makes the vail places such disaster areas? I'm gonna buy the epix pass I think. thx!


You should read the thread. Pass is a good deal tbh but you get what you pay for.


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## 2Planker (Mar 27, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> what makes the vail places such disaster areas? I'm gonna buy the epix pass I think. thx!


You've got 102 pages to read.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> You've got 102 pages to read.


I'm up to page 38!


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## HowieT2 (Mar 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think you mean John...
> 
> And I've said this before, as bad as I feel for John as he's a great guy, if it came down to a choice between him and cutting Mountain Ops budget, I'd say they made the right choice. Could it have been handled better? Yes. But overall that's a minor issue IMO and had virtually no impact on daily operations of their core business (i.e. skiing).


agreed.  and I would add, that situation may not have been a totally Alterra thing.  The new boss is a local and has worked at SB his entire life.


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## Whitey (Mar 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think you mean John...
> 
> And I've said this before, as bad as I feel for John as he's a great guy, if it came down to a choice between him and cutting Mountain Ops budget, I'd say they made the right choice. Could it have been handled better? Yes. But overall that's a minor issue IMO and had virtually no impact on daily operations of their core business (i.e. skiing).


Good lord you are a fraud.   Does "consistency" mean nothing to you?  You say this just hours after you replied to my post that in a major acquisition there may come a time where you have to "tear the bandaid off" and if people aren't assimilating to the new company and its ways - it's time to go.  And I wasn't even advocating that course per se, I was noting that a case could be made for this approach and maybe we shouldn't just assume it could only be because "Vail sucks".  But you had to get on your soapbox about your amazing expertise.   In case you're trying to forget that post, here it is:

_"To be perfectly blunt, that's a piss-poor terrible attitude and stance. Having gone through multiple mergers over the years I can tell you the ones where the acquiring company tried to assimilate the people in the new acquisition into their culture are the ones that had the most problems and resulted in the lowest morale (among people from both sides of the acquisition/merger). The most successful mergers were the ones where the parent company realized that maybe there were things they could learn from the company they acquired and tried to take the best cultural aspects of each party to the merger."_

After you responded with this I was going to note that you are either a complete fraud who either doesn't actually have the experience you claim to have or you are just really bad at your job (or you were just a bean-counter or an admin on your "mergers" and you don't have any experience with operational integration).   But I didn't feel like getting into an on-line flamewar so I left it alone.    But your rank hypocrisy leaves me no choice now.    

It's just the same old sh1t, repackaged.    SB is your home mountain and so everything they do is wonderful and justified.   Even their snow is purer and better, probably whiter too.     They can do no wrong, even under new ownership.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2021)

I'm not sure John Egan, celebrity ski instructor and mentor moved the needle much at SB. He was basically what Billy Kidd was at Steamboat.

Who likely has moved the needle is their mountain operations director Patrick.   They hired him away from Vail where he had been doing a great job at Wildcat for many years. 

Patrick would have been a far more experienced and better choice to have promoted to GM at Wildcat or Attitash.  Instead they moved over a Risk Manager from Mt Snow to run Wildcat and hired some kid with a couple years experience at a bump in Indiana to run Attitash.  Disastrous performance by both, but they were overmatched.


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Good lord you are a fraud.   Does "consistency" mean nothing to you?  You say this just hours after you replied to my post that in a major acquisition there may come a time where you have to "tear the bandaid off" and if people aren't assimilating to the new company and its ways - it's time to go.  And I wasn't even advocating that course per se, I was noting that a case could be made for this approach and maybe we shouldn't just assume it could only be because "Vail sucks".  But you had to get on your soapbox about your amazing expertise.   In case you're trying to forget that post, here it is:
> 
> _"To be perfectly blunt, that's a piss-poor terrible attitude and stance. Having gone through multiple mergers over the years I can tell you the ones where the acquiring company tried to assimilate the people in the new acquisition into their culture are the ones that had the most problems and resulted in the lowest morale (among people from both sides of the acquisition/merger). The most successful mergers were the ones where the parent company realized that maybe there were things they could learn from the company they acquired and tried to take the best cultural aspects of each party to the merger."_
> 
> ...



You're comparing 2 things that have nothing at all to do with one another. Not once did I say you keep every single person in a merger. I simply said you don't just automatically assume the acquiring company's way is better and everyone needs to fall in line with the way they do things. You also have absolutely no knowledge on the specifics around why John's position was not retained after the Alterra acquisition of SB. And once again, as great a guy as John is, he was not integral to the daily operations of the resort. Letting him go did not cause the actual skiing product to be impacted (unlike the decisions that Vail made that have resulted in a 102 page thread about all the various things that HAVE directly impacted the skiing experience at several of their resorts).

And if you think I've never been critical of SB's decisions (either under new ownership or previous ownership), then you have certainly missed a number of my posts over the years.

Calling me a fraud is just hilarious. Get over yourself. I gave personal first hand experience (never claimed it was "expertise" or that I was in charge of any mergers) over what I have seen that works well and what doesn't work well.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 28, 2021)

So Inclined said:


> I was at Wildcat last Saturday * virtually everything on the middle of the mountain is yours and yours alone if you want it*.
> And the cover was still really great - though that might have changed by now. Hope you get a great day.



why is it people are not using those middle mountain runs? To me looks like the best part of the mountain and they are blues for the most part...

I'd think they'd be jammed with everyone who dosent want to ski the greens and/or can't quite ski the blacks. I can ski the blacks and I'd still put a ton of time on them.  

FWIW i have never skied wildcat, but will make a couple trips there next season. 

Thanks!


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> why is it people are not using those middle mountain runs? To me looks like the best part of the mountain and they are blues for the most part...
> 
> I'd think they'd be jammed with everyone who dosent want to ski the greens and/or can't quite ski the blacks. I can ski the blacks and I'd still put a ton of time on them.
> 
> ...



Nothing between Lynx and Alley Cat is groomed.  Catenary, Cougar and Panther are all low angle, natural snow bump runs.  So, much of the season they are not open.   Also, the connector trails to these are also ungroomed and easy to miss if you are not familiar with the mountain.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Nothing between Lynx and Alley Cat is groomed.  Catenary, Cougar and Panther are all low angle, natural snow bump runs.  So, much of the season they are not open.   Also, the connector trails to these are also ungroomed and easy to miss if you are not familiar with the mountain.


 ahh i see. makes sense now. Thx!

On the flip side, I guess I know where to go to get practice on the bumps. I've never been a bump skier till last year when my then 7  yr old daughter started loving them, so I started learning. I suck, she is a natural.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That was fairly typical of SB midweek though even when they had cheaper tickets...


Can confirm. The last 4 years we have to gone to SB on weekdays only with 1 exception, we did a Mt. Ellen only pass on a sunday (and there were no lines other than a 2 minute wait at most),  and an all moutain pass on Monday. 4 inches of snow all day sunday, 5 inches overnight sunday into Monday. The attached pic is my kids on Mt Ellen that sunday in a snowstorm. I've never waited in a line at SB on a weekday. Ever. And I get quadpasses and pick my days very carefully.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Mar 28, 2021)

Went to Sunapee yesterday. ALL of their lifts were running. People were nice - really nice. Upon arrival an ambassador asked if we had tickets and then scanned my toddler and gave him props for the high number of days he skied this year. One of the lifties helped him snap into his skis. Later in the day I saw different staff helping kids get into their skis at the summit quad. Unreal. 

We got a ton of vertical in short time. 

Conditions were decent for mid March. They had a waffle cabin and a grill slinging burgers outside at the summit lodge for quick eats/snacks outside.

Staff there apologized to my kiddo for not having helmet stickers this year. Free stickers are a thing?

Overall I was blown away. I wish At/cat ran half as smooth.  They totally made lemonade out of lemons. Others are still looking for sugar.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Mar 28, 2021)

I've read this whole thread and it seems like Vail screwed up at Wildcat and Attitash a bit for sure. I haven't heard anything really bad about anywhere else. And I read this whole thread. Lift lines were going to be bad this year, period. Not having all the lifts open and WC and Attitash certainly made it worse there.

But, I'm going to go with the Epic Local pass instead of passes at Ragged, where we've been for 5 years. Why? Here's why:

It's $1185 for me and my 2 kids (9 and 12), that's a deal when you put it up against spending $600 for my passes at Ragged  *plus* the cost of tickets for trips to 6-8 other places throughout the year. On average, I'd say it costs me $250 per day for day trips away from Ragged- do that 8 times and that's $2000, add in Hotels for another $1K. and we have done at least 8 trips away from ragged in a normal year. All in the last 5 years, its $3K.

Now, Sunapee becomes our new home mountain for easy weekend day trips, its an hour away from us, we mix in Crotched a few weekends - 50 minutes away- add in a few trips for night skiing which my kids love, and go to Mt. Snow and Stowe probably 3 times each for the price of gas and a cheap motel room, costs I would have incurred anyway.

Okemo is only 2 hours from my house, we will be there more than 3 times. I pull my kids from school and do weekday trips as often as I can (they are doing great in school and that's not an issue) and I won't expect the crowds to be crazy on a weekday. If Its jammed on a weekend and we only get 10- 12 runs in all day, fine, I didnt drop $250 on lift tickets. The same can be said for Mt. Snow and Stowe.

We will get to WC and Attitash, hopefully they handle things better there this year. If not, I'll still go, because again, if we only get 10- 12 runs in, I didnt drop $250 on tickets. Either way, the lines will be better this year even if they dont run all the lifts again because the lifts that are running will be FULL each time they go up.

I am also lucky that with my job, I can also drop everything and do solo weekday trips. Now instead of Ragged, those solo trips will be Okemo, Mt Snow WC, and Attitash. That's an upgrade and again, I just dont think we'll see huge weekdays crowds next year.

I average 35 trips a year, so we will get our money's worth-lets say I do 30 trips to the Epic resorts, that's 1185 / 30 = $40 per trip. I'll probably do more since I'm not buying tickets.

And I can sprinkle in a couple $30 dollar NH resident days at Cannon, my kids do lessons at Pats and get 1 free ticket at WV and BW, so I'll ski there 1 day each for just the price of my ticket.

I see my season going like this:

Sunapee 10 -15 trips
Crochet- 5-8 trips
Okemo- 5-8 trips
Mt Snow 2-3 trips
Stowe- 2-3 trips
WC 2-3 trips
Attitash 2-3 trips
Cannon 2 trips
BW 1 trip
WV 1 trip
thats between 32 and 46 trips. for about $1500. That works for me

And I'll still get a couple days at sugarbush as well. We love it there, cant miss another year there. add in another $600-700.

I know, if we love Sugarbush so much why not the IKON? Simple. Loon is the only place remotely close to me on the IKON, I'd only get 7 days, and I have skied that place on the weekends before, I'm not going back. We ski every weekend, my kids are 9 and 12, I need somewhere close to be our home mountain.

If the IKON pass had Sunapee, Ragged or something similar closer to me with unlimited days, yeah, I'd do that just for Sugarbush.

Why not both? also easy, I just can't swing the cost. 

We'll see how it goes. Its a 1 year try out. We are bored of Ragged after 5 years, although it is a GREAT place.

If Vail really does suck and screws things up this year, I'll figure something else out for 22/23.


----------



## urungus (Mar 28, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Went to Sunapee yesterday. ALL of their lifts were running. People were nice - really nice. Upon arrival an ambassador asked if we had tickets and then scanned my toddler and gave him props for the high number of days he skied this year. One of the lifties helped him snap into his skis. Later in the day I saw different staff helping kids get into their skis at the summit quad. Unreal.
> 
> We got a ton of vertical in short time.
> 
> ...



Glad to hear this hasn’t changed.  I’ve only been to Sunapee a few times, all pre-Vail, and I too noticed the friendliness of the employees, everyone from the greeting ambassadors to the shuttle drivers.


----------



## Zermatt (Mar 29, 2021)

Whistler just closed due to covid.


----------



## urungus (Mar 29, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> Whistler just closed due to covid.



“Iconic Resort”








						Outbreak Of Brazilian P.1 Coronavirus Variant Closes Iconic Whistler Ski Resort
					

The iconic skiing resort in Whistler, BC has been ordered to close following a surge in Covid-19 cases caused by the P.1 variant.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## kingslug (Mar 30, 2021)

Amazing the biggest resort in N America closes...but all ours are open.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 30, 2021)

and supposedly Canada is closed down to outsiders, right?   

Id be curious to see what the deal is.  Were they just not doing proper social distancing, mask wearing, bad luck?

Aside from some operational issues discussed at length in this thread the USA ski season ran largely normal.  As skiers we should be super thankful for that.  If things had shutdown in December or a larger part of the season was missed it could've been very bad for us skiers.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 30, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> and supposedly Canada is closed down to outsiders, right?
> 
> Id be curious to see what the deal is.  Were they just not doing proper social distancing, mask wearing, bad luck?
> 
> Aside from some operational issues discussed at length in this thread the USA ski season ran largely normal.  As skiers we should be super thankful for that.  If things had shutdown in December or a larger part of the season was missed it could've been very bad for us skiers.


It will be interesting to look back at a societal level with respect to ski area operations (or lack of) and see the differences between the US, Europe and Canada and what worked and maybe was over reactionary?  

And I fully understand that each country/region isn't an apples to apples comparison.

By in large, it does seem that the day to day operations for the ski industry that the US sure seems like it got things about as correct as they could have


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 30, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> and supposedly Canada is closed down to outsiders, right?
> 
> Id be curious to see what the deal is.  Were they just not doing proper social distancing, mask wearing, bad luck?
> 
> Aside from some operational issues discussed at length in this thread the USA ski season ran largely normal.  As skiers we should be super thankful for that.  If things had shutdown in December or a larger part of the season was missed it could've been very bad for us skiers.


BC is hitting it's third wave, relatively hard right now, at least compared to the first two.  Whistler is a hot spot due to the realtively large volume of weekly Vancouver traffic,  The recent early March school break also brought lots of skiers from Ontario and Quebec.   The COVID outbreak is motly related to the affordable housing where they pack seasonal employees, which are in an age group where social distancing is not known to be strictly followed. 
They had started vaccination of whistler staff two weeks ago (using a batch of the AstraZeneca vaccine), but now that it's use has been suspended for the under-55 crowd, they saw no hope of containing the outbreak, which increasingly consist of variants more agressive for younger folks.  

All other ski resorts in BC are still open.


----------



## abc (Mar 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> It will be interesting to look back at a societal level with respect to ski area operations (or lack of) and see the differences between the US, Europe and Canada and what worked and maybe was over reactionary?
> 
> And I fully understand that each country/region isn't an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> By in large, it does seem that the day to day operations for the ski industry that the US sure seems like it got things about as correct as they could have


Some of it are just different standard. Or, different tolerance to risk (of getting infected, death, etc.)

Canada has lower case & death per million population than the US. But it choose to close stuff, when the US choose to remain open with higher cases and death number. The Canadian border is closed to anyone who's not a citizen/residents. The US border is mostly open except for countries/regions with high infection rate. 

Europe is the same there. Some country choose to stay open despite high numbers. Other country choose to close even their number aren't all that high.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 30, 2021)

abc said:


> Some of it are just different standard. Or, different tolerance to risk (of getting infected, death, etc.)
> 
> Canada has lower case & death per million population than the US. But it choose to close stuff, when the US choose to remain open with higher cases and death number. The Canadian border is closed to anyone who's not a citizen/residents. The US border is mostly open except for countries/regions with high infection rate.
> 
> Europe is the same there. Some country choose to stay open despite high numbers. Other country choose to close even their number aren't all that high.


Will be hard to come up with solid conclusions.   It all depends on the weight you put on saved lives (and up to now, mostly elderly people lives), versus the economy, kids education, mental health problems, postponed surgeries and medical procedures....  The politics involved make it impossible to have a rational discussion on these issues.


----------



## urungus (Mar 30, 2021)

Cops on skis at Vail:








						Cops on skis keep the peace at Vail and Beaver Creek. But they’re more likely to lend a friendly mitten.
					

VAIL — Det. Greg Schwartz spies a couple in need and skis up to them in front of the bright yellow “Slow Skiing” sign on Vail’s Northwoods run.  “Can I take it for you?” he asks, reaching for the phone balancing in Lowell Zarzuela’s hand as he snaps selfies of himself and his wife, Angie. […]




					coloradosun.com


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2021)

urungus said:


> Cops on skis at Vail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly it sounds like they dont really do all that much. I'm somehow ok with this. If I was a local taxpayer I probably wouldn't.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 30, 2021)

urungus said:


> Cops on skis at Vail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All the times I have skied Vail in the past five years, I have never seen one, 

We have seen Yellow Jackets that actually do more enforcement to the extreme at times.  My son nearly lost his pass for two weeks for braking hard spraying a slow sign as he stopped to meet up.  He got in trouble at Breck for doing a 180 and skiing backwards on a beginner trail.  Got a written warning.  Dad bailed his ass out of those situations.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 30, 2021)

those are both ridiculous scenarios to be scolded over.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 30, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> those are both ridiculous scenarios to be scolded over.



I agree! People spray slow signs all the time and my son skis better backwards than most of the beginners that were on that trail (or should I say wide open boulevard).


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 30, 2021)

abc said:


> Some of it are just different standard. Or, different tolerance to risk (of getting infected, death, etc.)
> 
> Canada has lower case & death per million population than the US. But it choose to close stuff, when the US choose to remain open with higher cases and death number. The Canadian border is closed to anyone who's not a citizen/residents. The US border is mostly open except for countries/regions with high infection rate.
> 
> Europe is the same there. Some country choose to stay open despite high numbers. Other country choose to close even their number aren't all that high.


Also less dense population in Canada for the most part.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 30, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> ....My son nearly lost his pass for two weeks for braking hard spraying a slow sign as he stopped to meet up....


You learn something new every day. I thought spraying slow signs was mandatory for kids and teenagers...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> If I was a local taxpayer I probably wouldn't.



Maybe it's not an every day thing?  If it is it's a ridiculous waste of money, I mean, the article even states they dont do real police work (although they could).


----------



## catskillman (Mar 30, 2021)

urungus said:


> Cops on skis at Vail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found the below quote in the article interesting....

 The mid-mountain Cloud Nine Bistro at Aspen Highlands regularly sells more than 100 bottles of champagne every weekend lunch. (A Chicago man being sued in Pitkin County for an alleged hit-and-run crash at Aspen Highlands that injured another skier had just paid a $4,704 tab from Cloud Nine from earlier in the afternoon.)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Mar 31, 2021)

catskillman said:


> I found the below quote in the article interesting....
> 
> The mid-mountain Cloud Nine Bistro at Aspen Highlands regularly sells more than 100 bottles of champagne every weekend lunch. (A Chicago man being sued in Pitkin County for an alleged hit-and-run crash at Aspen Highlands that injured another skier had just paid a $4,704 tab from Cloud Nine from earlier in the afternoon.)



Not surprising!  If you ever drive East on I 70 there are  a lot of skiing injury lawsuit billboards!  Must be there incase someone is festering over an accident on the slopes.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 31, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Not surprising!  If you ever drive East on I 70 there are  a lot of skiing injury lawsuit billboards!  Must be there incase someone is festering over an accident on the slopes.


Fuck me this is so wrong lol


----------



## skef (Apr 1, 2021)

VAilL-related content for the first day of the fourth month.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 1, 2021)

skef said:


> VAilL-related content for the first day of the fourth month.



LOL


----------



## 1dog (Apr 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Some of it are just different standard. Or, different tolerance to risk (of getting infected, death, etc.)
> 
> Canada has lower case & death per million population than the US. But it choose to close stuff, when the US choose to remain open with higher cases and death number. The Canadian border is closed to anyone who's not a citizen/residents. The US border is mostly open except for countries/regions with high infection rate.
> 
> Europe is the same there. Some country choose to stay open despite high numbers. Other country choose to close even their number aren't all that high.


so southern border immigrants have no Covid cases? ( Or masks, apparently) Mexico, all of Central America, etc.?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 3, 2021)

skef said:


> VAilL-related content for the first day of the fourth month.



This is great.  It's funny because it's (almost) true.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 3, 2021)

I skied ragged today with my daughter, the difference between an organization that gives a shit about their customers and one that assumes the next customer will replace the last customer could not be more apparent.

The surface today at ragged was better than anything vail has offered in nh since February. 

There is more snow at ragged than wildcat.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 3, 2021)

Ragged today:


----------



## thebigo (Apr 3, 2021)

Wildcat a week ago


----------



## abc (Apr 3, 2021)

1dog said:


> so southern border immigrants have no Covid cases? ( Or masks, apparently) Mexico, all of Central America, etc.?


???


----------



## thebigo (Apr 5, 2021)

One thing vail did well this year are the new bottle filling stations at attitash and crotched. 

I never understood why they are not ubiquitous. Especially needed on warm spring days when the sun saps the hydration and beers go down easy. 

Could not find any at ragged over the weekend and the closest I found at loon today were $4 bottles.


----------



## Edd (Apr 8, 2021)

At Wildcat today I noticed new ski racks (I think).



Who says Vail isn’t investing in the MWV ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

Edd said:


> At Wildcat today I noticed new ski racks (I think).
> 
> View attachment 51346
> 
> Who says Vail isn’t investing in the MWV ?


You know Robert Katz is not laughing.  He gave you all a 20% discount so no complaining.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> At Wildcat today I noticed new ski racks (I think).
> 
> 
> Who says Vail isn’t investing in the MWV ?



They didnt even bother taking the 27 seconds necessary to flush the horizontal supports.


----------



## Edd (Apr 11, 2021)

So Wildcat is calling it a season a week early. Some obvious back and forth on social media, with people defending them because we’ve had brutal weather since March began. But, this gives them a pass on the snowmaking earlier this year. Nearby Boyne areas are making them look pretty bad.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> So Wildcat is calling it a season a week early. Some obvious back and forth on social media, with people defending them because we’ve had brutal weather since March began. But, this gives them a pass on the snowmaking earlier this year. Nearby Boyne areas are making them look pretty bad.


Cannon is closing after today. They had some "interesting" thin spots yesterday and it had been noted on here that they had been blowing a ton of snow. The connector trails were the issue.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 11, 2021)

Edd said:


> So Wildcat is calling it a season a week early. Some obvious back and forth on social media, with people defending them because we’ve had brutal weather since March began. But, this gives them a pass on the snowmaking earlier this year. Nearby Boyne areas are making them look pretty bad.


*Sunday April 11, 2021. 

In true Wildcat fashion we’d like to end our season on a high note. After assessing our terrain we have decided that today, April 11th will be the final day of the 20/21 season. First off, we’d like to extend a HUGE thank you to the Wildcat staff who have kept us safe through a season like no other. We would also like to thank you, our loyal guests, for masking up, hanging in your mobile base lodges, and proving that the Wildcat faithful are the best around. Enjoy the spring turns and we look forward to seeing you next season. Cheers!



Please know that you will encounter variable spring conditions, not suitable for beginner skiers and riders.



 Josh Klevans

 General Manager

*


----------



## snoseek (Apr 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon is closing after today. They had some "interesting" thin spots yesterday and it had been noted on here that they had been blowing a ton of snow. The connector trails were the issue.


It's probably those mid mtn trails. The biggest difference to me is wildcat was just a run or two well into January and are finishing with not much either. Cannon got their trail count up fast and overall skied much better overall imo.


----------



## xlr8r (Apr 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon is closing after today. They had some "interesting" thin spots yesterday and it had been noted on here that they had been blowing a ton of snow. The connector trails were the issue.



Yeah I was at Cannon as well yesterday, definitely some interesting thin spots.  Curious how they patched it all up in order to open today as the place got trashed yesterday.  But Barons, Skylight, Ravine, Garys, and especially Profile all skied very well for a great last day of my season.  Though I did fall on my tailbone which is sore today


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 11, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It's probably those mid mtn trails. The biggest difference to me is wildcat was just a run or two well into January and are finishing with not much either. Cannon got their trail count up fast and overall skied much better overall imo.


Yes this and what they still had open was pretty good. Profile, Taft and skylight off the top were great yesterday and Tram and ravine were fun as well. Barons over at mittersill had tons of snow left and skyline into Dragon's drop, while not very wide provided some nice skiing as well.
Front five had great coverage on Gary's and Zoomer but Rocket had some obstacle skiing.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 11, 2021)

Bretton Woods also called it a season today so that leaves only Loon open in New Hampshire after today.


----------



## Zand (Apr 11, 2021)

sull1102 said:


> Bretton Woods also called it a season today so that leaves only Loon open in New Hampshire after today.


Gondi only at Loon this week. Oof.


----------



## xlr8r (Apr 11, 2021)

Zand said:


> Gondi only at Loon this week. Oof.


Gives them the excuse to not connect the lift directly to the trails.   Walking .may be required, but your taking your skis off anyway


----------



## thebigo (Apr 12, 2021)

Not at all surprised wildcat closed, the product they put out Saturday was barely worth skiing and it showed in the turnout; there were more customers at SR on Friday than wildcat on Saturday. The fact that wildcat made it is as late as they did is a testament to the mountain, it is a special place that only managed to put out a 120 day season this year. One of the warmer springs on record, no significant snowfall since February, absolutely bare bones snowmaking. Washington this weekend looked like it should in a month or two. Had wildcat blown another week in February, when they had the temps and staff, Lynx and Polecat may have made it to the end but they chose to bet on natural.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 12, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Gives them the excuse to not connect the lift directly to the trails.   Walking .may be required, but your taking your skis off anyway



There was a massive amount of snow in the park that they could push out if they needed. Been very impressed with the Boyne properties this spring. Possible my expectations are lowered due to skiing NH Vail all year but the service, surfaces and operations at Loon and SR this past week have been excellent.

I do agree that gondola sucks but will probably grab one more day at Loon this week if the weather looks good.


----------



## machski (Apr 12, 2021)

catskillman said:


> I found the below quote in the article interesting....
> 
> The mid-mountain Cloud Nine Bistro at Aspen Highlands regularly sells more than 100 bottles of champagne every weekend lunch. (A Chicago man being sued in Pitkin County for an alleged hit-and-run crash at Aspen Highlands that injured another skier had just paid a $4,704 tab from Cloud Nine from earlier in the afternoon.)


Ever been to Cloud 9 on the Highlands?  Went last year as two ladies I was skiing with wanted Champagne to celebrate making the Highland Bowl hike and ski.  Two glasses were like $120, bottles were ridiculously priced.  Heard a lot of European languages being spoken there.  Seemed kind of odd, Highlands is still very much a locals and hard charging skier/rider hill.  But Cloud 9 Bistro seems like it was grafted from Ajax or Snowmass.


----------



## Edd (Apr 12, 2021)

machski said:


> Ever been to Cloud 9 on the Highlands?  Went last year as two ladies I was skiing with wanted Champagne to celebrate making the Highland Bowl hike and ski.  Two glasses were like $120, bottles were ridiculously priced.  Heard a lot of European languages being spoken there.  Seemed kind of odd, Highlands is still very much a locals and hard charging skier/rider hill.  But Cloud 9 Bistro seems like it was grafted from Ajax or Snowmass.


Wow, I’ve been there and don’t remember the prices but $60 glasses of Champagne would have driven me out for sure.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Apr 12, 2021)

The President of Vail's Mountain division is stepping down effective June 7th.





__





						Vail Resorts Announces Executive Leadership Changes | Vail Resorts, Inc.
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



					investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

Well..stepping sideways.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

PCMR closed yesterday.  So are there any Vail Resorts still open in the NE?  Stowe?


----------



## cdskier (Apr 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> PCMR closed yesterday.  So are there any Vail Resorts still open in the NE?  Stowe?


Yes, Stowe is still open. This coming weekend is their planned closing date. Mt Snow is still open as well with this weekend being their planned closing too.


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes, Stowe is still open. This coming weekend is their planned closing date. Mt Snow is still open as well with this weekend being their planned closing too.



Coverage isn't bad at all at Carinthia.  They could probably go a couple more weeks if they went to just Heavy Metal and pushed out the jumps.  Saturday was great on Ripcord but the Main Mountain was melting out quick.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

Nosedive has the best coverage..at least it did.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Nosedive has the best coverage..at least it did.


Made a Stowe Rez for tomorrow. First time this season, better late than never. Looks like a lot of Nosedive if the trail report is accurate.... only diamond left....


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 12, 2021)

Went to Stowe today and yesterday.  The coverage was good on the trails that were open.  Nose dive was excellent today.  Had a blast!!!!!  Enjoy.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 12, 2021)

hovercraft said:


> Went to Stowe today and yesterday.  The coverage was good on the trails that were open.  Nose dive was excellent today.  Had a blast!!!!!  Enjoy.


Sounds great. It's a long day trip, I need the reassurance.


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 12, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Sounds great. It's a long day trip, I need the reassurance.


You will have a blast, spring riding is the best.  60 and sunny tomorrow.  Don’t forget to go down gulch the bumps are a blast on it.  Have fun and report back!!!!


----------



## kingslug (Apr 13, 2021)

Everyone south supposed to get snow thurs and fri..except poor Stowe. oh well.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 13, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Everyone south supposed to get snow thurs and fri..except poor Stowe. oh well.



Will not be much and I doubt Thursday will be anything as in little accumulation with warmer temps during the day.


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 13, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Everyone south supposed to get snow thurs and fri..except poor Stowe. oh well.


My forecast shows 10 inches thursday night thru sat morning


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 13, 2021)

hovercraft said:


> You will have a blast, spring riding is the best.  60 and sunny tomorrow.  Don’t forget to go down gulch the bumps are a blast on it.  Have fun and report back!!!!


Great spring day today. Nosedive is loaded top to bottom. Nice soft bumps on Gulch but they're going fast. The summit needs some farming. No suckiness today.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

What the?









						Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz Says Key to Growth is Reducing Crowds - SnowBrains
					

As winter 20/21 approaches its natural end, in sharp contrast to the abrupt end of the 19/20 season, resorts will begin looking back at the successes




					snowbrains.com


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> What the?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ha!  The photo of Katz and his "troops" needs to be included in the chapter on megalomania in every psych 101 textbook.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Ha!  The photo of Katz and his "troops" needs to be included in the chapter on megalomania in every psych 101 textbook.


Right??!!  What a douchey look on his face in that pic.    







Looks like a shot from Star Wars or something.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

So..he thinks that the sport is too dominated by white people and wants to solve that. Ok...how?
Is it price? yup its an expensive sport for sure but those of any denomination that want to do it and can afford to do it..do it. Those that can't don't. How they can solve that is anyone's guess since they seem to be a revenue driven entity. Also wants more people to come during midweek...well don't we all. Work tends to get in the way of that. 
Not sure where he is going with this.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Right??!!  What a douchey look on his face in that pic.


Well..there is that too...LOL


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

kingslug said:


> So..he thinks that the sport is too dominated by white people and wants to solve that. Ok...how?
> Is it price? yup its an expensive sport for sure but those of any denomination that want to do it and can afford to do it..do it. Those that can't don't. How they can solve that is anyone's guess since they seem to be a revenue driven entity. Also wants more people to come during midweek...well don't we all. Work tends to get in the way of that.
> Not sure where he is going with this.


Yeah I don't know if it was the article itself or his comments, but I left rather confused.  Lack of crowding is the way forward?  Then why drop the price of Epic and encourage more crowding?

I guess I was anticipating that he was going to say that the focus would shift to quality versus quantity, or to not focus on volume.  But honestly I have no idea what the hell he is saying.


----------



## abc (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> But honestly I have no idea what the hell he is saying.


Maybe that’s on purpose. He meant to say nothing. Nothing  concrete that is.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I don't know if it was the article itself or his comments, but I left rather confused.  Lack of crowding is the way forward?  Then why drop the price of Epic and encourage more crowding?
> 
> I guess I was anticipating that he was going to say that the focus would shift to quality versus quantity, or to not focus on volume.  But honestly I have no idea what the hell he is saying.


Well at least on this topic we fully agree!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Maybe that’s on purpose. He meant to say nothing. Nothing  concrete that is.


True.  He has to deal with Wall Street.


----------



## Teleskier (Apr 14, 2021)

This comment was curious... especially given the other thread with those upset that Jay pulled the ticket of straightliners...


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 14, 2021)

He wants to,
1. Get more people skiing
2. Lower Prices
3. Eliminate Reservations 

And somehow that will lead to shorter liftlines??? Definitely not in favor of having to reserve a spot when you already paid for the pass but when its cost makes Vail resorts the walmarts of ski areas there must be a better solution.
Also the comment on virtual queues doesn’t bode well. I can see that leading to terrible things.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

Teleskier said:


> This comment was curious... especially given the other thread with those upset that Jay pulled the ticket of straightliners...


Looks like an angry former Vail employee.  I bet she will not be a guest on the Epic podcast anytime soon!


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like an angry former Vail employee.  I bet she will not be a guest on the Epic podcast anytime soon!


Changed her name from Karen


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> But honestly I have no idea what the hell he is saying.


Which is exactly how he wants it.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 14, 2021)

Well..then he gets it...
Some men..you just can't reach....
cool hand luke...


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 14, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Well..then he gets it...
> Some men..you just can't reach....
> cool hand luke...


That's also the first thing I thought of.  And I don't like it any more than you men.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 15, 2021)

20% off passes is just nonsensical.  Between the number of new participants this year, that price slash, and pent up demand I expect Vail Resorts to be a worse shitshow than this year. 

It's just nuts.  My buddy claims he waited 45 minutes on a Friday powder day at Stowe this season.  Say the cabins were going up 1/3 full...even at full capacity a 15 minute wait on a Friday is ridiculous for a non-holiday northeast Friday.  I can't think of any hill that could possibly get close to that kind of wait on a Friday in a normal season.  Maybe the Loon gondola, or WaWa after 4pm, but that's all I got.


----------



## abc (Apr 16, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Say the cabins were going up 1/3 full...even at full capacity a 15 minute wait on a Friday is ridiculous for a non-holiday northeast Friday.


But that’s probably got to do with WFH and remote school.

Weekend crowds will be more indicative though.


----------



## njdiver85 (Apr 16, 2021)

For the diehard skiers on this forum, 20% off is nonsensical in that it will bring more crowds and we as a group here don't mind paying some more (or a lot more) if it would bring us uncrowded runs with short wait times at the bottom.  But the vast majority out there (that are not on this site 24/7), and even those considering buying a megapass for the first time, will jump on this and Vail will sell a lot more passes going into next season.  And of course most of the diehards will still buy the pass anyway.  Maybe the diehards buy Alterra and Indy as well, but Epic is cheap and most will buy it despite all the frustration it might bring.  From Vail's perspective, that would be a win-win.


----------



## abc (Apr 16, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> we as a group here don't mind paying some more (or a lot more) *if* it would bring us uncrowded runs with short wait times at the bottom.


That's a really big "if"!

I don't believe pass price is a deterrent to crowding. So I'm not one of the "group" who wants to go back to the $1000 pass! There maybe a vocal few who expressed such a believe. I'm skeptical of such a hypothesis.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2021)

"Me and my troops have come in to take over your quaint little ski area."


----------



## Edd (Apr 16, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't believe pass price is a deterrent to crowding.


Don’t understand how you arrive at that belief. Seems like basic economics.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 16, 2021)

Edd said:


> Don’t understand how you arrive at that belief. Seems like basic economics.



Don't bite the hook....


----------



## thebigo (Apr 16, 2021)

I find it fitting that wildcat is getting, what may end of being, their largest storm of the year on what was supposed to be closing weekend. If only they realized that ski areas in NH need to make snow, they may have actually made their closing weekend.

Looking forward to taking some pictures early tomorrow morning when I drive by on my way to Sunday River.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I find it fitting that wildcat is getting, what may end of being, their largest storm of the year on what was supposed to be closing weekend. If only they realized that ski areas in NH need to make snow, they may have actually made their closing weekend.
> 
> Looking forward to taking some pictures early tomorrow morning when I drive by on my way to Sunday River.


I'm up in Berlin for work today.  I'll be driving by in a few hours.  Will be interesting to see how much has fallen. 

It was looking grim yesterday driving by.  Hard to believe they were even open last weekend.


----------



## urungus (Apr 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> "Me and my troops have come in to take over your quaint little ski area."



Why is everyone scowling in that picture ?  I guess being associated with Vail makes them unhappy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2021)

urungus said:


> Why is everyone scowling in that picture ?  I guess being associated with Vail makes them unhappy.


Right?!

"You work for Vail and YOU WILL like it!"


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 16, 2021)

abc said:


> That's a really big "if"!
> 
> I don't believe pass price is a deterrent to crowding. So I'm not one of the "group" who wants to go back to the $1000 pass! There maybe a vocal few who expressed such a believe. I'm skeptical of such a hypothesis.



I am with you on that!  I akin to managing he days and a mix of passes to limit how long I wait in lines.  For example, I would not ski Stowe, Mt Snow or Okemo on a holiday weekend.  As in Colorado I would not ski Breck, Keystone or Vail on holiday weekends.   It was already crazy when there were higher pass prices in NE.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 18, 2021)

urungus said:


> Why is everyone scowling in that picture ?  I guess being associated with Vail makes them unhappy.


It looks like an album cover for a German synth band. I bet they took a million pics and went with the most douche of the bunch.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 18, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> "Me and my troops have come in to take over your quaint little ski area."


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> [/URL]


Exactly!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 18, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It looks like an album cover for a German synth band. I bet they took a million pics and went with the most douche of the bunch.



It's legit menacing looking is what it is.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)




----------



## snoseek (Apr 19, 2021)

Looking at the forecast has me wanting to maybe ski this coming Thursday. 5 areas left,  4 on ikon, none on epic. Looks like I'll have to buy a ticket.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Apr 19, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It looks like an album cover for a German synth band. I bet they took a million pics and went with the most douche of the bunch.


Does anyone know if this is a current picture/ones used for the article?
Mr Katz makes such a point of talking about diversity being a newly realized concern of his and how to make the industry more inclusive and welcoming. Well he is clearly tone deaf and full of himself if he approved of that picture because it is the exact opposite of welcoming imagery. I really hope someone points this out to him as Im not sure he spending much time on this forum....


----------



## Rambo (Apr 19, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> "Me and my troops have come in to take over your quaint little ski area."


----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)

But why? its just a white guy with a bunch of white people standing in white stuff...very....diverse.....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 19, 2021)

Katz has a very punchable face...  Looks like a huge douchebag  regardless of him being the king of the evil empire

He probably only skis groomers


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 19, 2021)

The Borg comparison fits.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 19, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Katz has a very punchable face...  Looks like a huge douchebag  regardless of him being the king of the evil empire
> 
> He probably only skis groomers


And in Jeans or maybe a bogner one piece.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 19, 2021)

definitely not Jeans  unless its under his $1000 ski outfit


----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)

Wonder if he skis at all...hmmm
And $1000.00 ski outfits would be way beneath him
The estimated Net Worth of Robert A Katz is at least $108 Million dollars as of 25 September 2020. Mr. Katz owns over 5,769 units of Vail Resorts stock worth over $80,204,634 and over the last 17 years he sold MTN stock worth over *$25,350,807*.

He's doing good ..must be doing something right.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 19, 2021)

He skis... He was at Roundtop shortly before I broke my collarbone.  I yelled his  name at him a few times and he didn't respond.   I'm sure he can't hear the tone of my peasant voice


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2021)




----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)




----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 19, 2021)

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical aquatic ceremony!  You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 19, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The estimated Net Worth of Robert A Katz is at least $108 Million dollars as of 25 September 2020. Mr. Katz owns over 5,769 units of Vail Resorts stock worth over $80,204,634 and over the last 17 years he sold MTN stock worth over *$25,350,807*.



Interesting that he's sold quite a bit of his Vail stock.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical aquatic ceremony!  You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!


I'm being oppressed....


----------



## kingslug (Apr 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Interesting that he's sold quite a bit of his Vail stock.


Money...in the bank...


----------



## njdiver85 (Apr 20, 2021)

My Vail stock is doing pretty well - I will give  him that.  I would encourage all Epic passholders to buy some shares of Vail.  It kind of acts like a hedge. While you are waiting in a long lift line on a busy weekend, you can think about how this can only help your share price.


----------



## abc (Apr 20, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> My Vail stock is doing pretty well - I will give  him that.  I would encourage all Epic passholders to buy some shares of Vail.  It kind of acts like a hedge. While you are waiting in a long lift line on a busy weekend, you can think about how this can only help your share price.




Much better to invest in something else having better return, and ski somewhere else with shorter line.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Apr 23, 2021)

Feature story in the Seattle Times today about Vail's failings in the PNW. Nearby Crystal Mountain, by contrast, was fully staffed with mostly happy customers.









						3 years and a COVID-blighted ski season into new ownership, Stevens Pass and Crystal Mountain chart divergent paths
					

Two beloved Western Washington ski resorts were snapped up by rival conglomerates in 2018. New ownership brought some initial upgrades. Then came the ultimate test: the COVID-19-hampered season of 2020-21. How did Stevens Pass and Crystal Mountain make out?




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2021)

The competition in Seattle area had a much longer season than Vail and fully staffed operations during Covid?

No way!!


----------



## SkitheLodge (May 4, 2021)

Vince said:


> Vail has sold or is in the process of selling the Okemo Golf Course to a private investor.


Local rumor is that this is Tater Hill that they are selling.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Feature story in the Seattle Times today about Vail's failings in the PNW. Nearby Crystal Mountain, by contrast, was fully staffed with mostly happy customers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that.  Interesting article.


----------



## faceplant (May 5, 2021)

take that Katz
union yes!









						Breckenridge ski patrollers decide to unionize in 43-42 vote
					

Breckenridge ski patrol will unionize. A union vote for ski patrollers at Breckenridge Ski Resort was tallied Monday, May 3, showing the union winning by one vote. Of the 85 ballots counted, 43 votes were...




					www.summitdaily.com


----------



## icecoast1 (May 5, 2021)

faceplant said:


> take that Katz
> union yes!
> 
> 
> ...


That seemed to work out real well for the last group that did it and was froze out of the end of season bonus


----------



## abc (May 5, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> That seemed to work out real well for the last group that did it and was froze out of the end of season bonus


That's probably fair, as the pay would be negotiated by the union going forward. It's up to the new union to prove its worth by getting a better wage to compensate for that 

The patrollers at Breck would have already knows that score and voted with that knowledge.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2021)

So....despite all the negative press and issues, how many of you renewed your Epic Pass?  I mean come on now, Rob gave you all a 20% discount.   In their view, money is all you care about.


----------



## Edd (May 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So....despite all the negative press and issues, how many of you renewed your Epic Pass?  I mean come on now, Rob gave you all a 20% discount.   In their view, money is all you care about.


I did, the Vets Pass is too cheap and they bought Wildcat. My hands are tied there and Sunapee is a good day trip hit for me. Crotched too, if I’m in the mood. I would’ve preferred to not do business with them, if more convenient.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 5, 2021)

faceplant said:


> take that Katz
> union yes!
> 
> 
> ...


Union voting is tough!  The utility I worked for tried to unionize.  They kept holding secret meetings to vote but every time they held the meeting word got out and those that did not want it showed and voting would fail.  I was kept secret to get a majority of those linemen that did want a union.  You do not need 100% of the people there.


----------



## abc (May 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Rob gave you all a 20% discount.   In their view, money is all you care about.


Well for me, it's more like 35% discount (I took a medical this season, so my "pandemic credit" from last year got carried over).

How many will turn down a 35% discount "on principle"? 

(I haven't bought yet, but intend to)


----------



## 2Planker (May 5, 2021)

faceplant said:


> take that Katz
> union yes!
> 
> 
> ...


Yup !  SR Patrol Director threatened to fire us all when the "unionize talks" were brought up by a couple of our Juris Doctorate Patrollers.
 That move cost him his job, and a handful of veteran top notch patrollers who were tired of the Boyne Corporate BS......


----------



## Mum skier (May 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So....despite all the negative press and issues, how many of you renewed your Epic Pass?  I mean come on now, Rob gave you all a 20% discount.   In their view, money is all you care about.


Yes I’m afraid our family of four did.  Really wanted to switch this year as I am bored with the more “destination” Epic East resorts (Snow, Okemo) and would have enjoyed checking Killington or Sugarbush. But in the end we couldn’t give up Sunapee for our day trips, five days at Loon wouldn’t really cover the regular weekends.  So let’s see how it goes with better lift loading and hopefully people will be back spending their weekends as the mall next year instead!


----------



## kingslug (May 6, 2021)

We did. And Ikon. Since we go to Stowe, SB and PC.


----------



## Smellytele (May 6, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Yes I’m afraid our family of four did.  Really wanted to switch this year as I am bored with the more “destination” Epic East resorts (Snow, Okemo) and would have enjoyed checking Killington or Sugarbush. But in the end we couldn’t give up Sunapee for our day trips, five days at Loon wouldn’t really cover the regular weekends.  So let’s see how it goes with better lift loading and hopefully people will be back spending their weekends as the mall next year instead!


They still have malls?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 6, 2021)

I did because my PA ski hill 4 miles from where I type is a Vail property. 

Was seriously considering Ikon as well.  Then a whole bunch of expensive house things needed replaced, hot water heater, water well and pressure tank (well is 550 ft deep so pump is $$$) and HVAC system is likely not to make it through the year.   

I really wanted the Ikon as well and in a typical year I could float it.  Especially this year with the "Discount" it would've been nice to have an Epic Local and an Ikon base.  Oh well...


----------



## Smellytele (May 6, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I did because my PA ski hill 4 miles from where I type is a Vail property.
> 
> Was seriously considering Ikon as well.  Then a whole bunch of expensive house things needed replaced, hot water heater, water well and pressure tank (well is 550 ft deep so pump is $$$) and HVAC system is likely not to make it through the year.
> 
> I really wanted the Ikon as well and in a typical year I could float it.  Especially this year with the "Discount" it would've been nice to have an Epic Local and an Ikon base.  Oh well...


Why do you need to heat hot water? Isn’t it already hot?


----------



## cdskier (May 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> They still have malls?



When I drove back to NJ from VT last weekend I drove through Paramus in NJ. It was a zoo. The malls I passed were packed. You'd never have known we were still technically in the middle of a pandemic based on how crowded they looked. Looked very close to pre-pandemic level crowds.


----------



## ss20 (May 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> When I drove back to NJ from VT last weekend I drove through Paramus in NJ. It was a zoo. The malls I passed were packed. You'd never have known we were still technically in the middle of a pandemic based on how crowded they looked. Looked very close to pre-pandemic level crowds.



I was out on the road last Saturday with beautiful weather here in CT and the traffic was unreal.  Like peak summer Saturday traffic.  Nuts.


----------



## frapcap (May 6, 2021)

Our money went to Ikon this upcoming season since we are spending some days skiing in Europe in 2022. We'll also grab and Indy Pass for quick hit mountains.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Why do you need to heat hot water? Isn’t it already hot?


  

unlike Iceland, no public hot water here in south central PA


----------



## kingslug (May 6, 2021)

Water heater is a great DIY job..they get around 2 to 3 K to replace them..Cost me the price of the heater and a few hours time. Then I spent the savings on new skis. Same as the booster pump..wanted another 2 K. Pump was $600.00 and 2 hours to put in. 
Our well pump went ...as well..that is not..a diy job..


----------



## Smellytele (May 6, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> unlike Iceland, no public hot water here in south central PA


Correct it is called a water heater not a hot water heater


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

We went Epic Veteran and Ikon does not have an equivalent.  Plus being based in Boston Sunapee will be our day trip ski area (have not been there in 15 years.  A couple Crotched days And a couple weekend trips in VT.  Other wise it will be spent in CO.  Plus we may be living back there in the middle of the season.  To be honest, I do not let all the politically correct or negative bullshit influence decisions.  Where else do I get a pass for about $450 and get to ski some cool resorts.  I do not need Loon SR or SL or Killington or even SB.  Just need to have some turns here in the east.  If it is up to my wife we would only ski in CO.


----------



## 2Planker (May 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Correct it is called a water heater not a hot water heater


Not around here......
     Just paid my bill w/ Sila Plumbing ($1,300) and it clearly says HOT WATER HEATER Replacement


----------



## Edd (May 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> We went Epic Veteran and Ikon does not have an equivalent.  Plus being based in Boston Sunapee will be our day trip ski area (have not been there in 15 years.  A couple Crotched days And a couple weekend trips in VT.  Other wise it will be spent in CO.  Plus we may be living back there in the middle of the season.  To be honest, I do not let all the politically correct or negative bullshit influence decisions.  Where else do I get a pass for about $450 and get to ski some cool resorts.  I do not need Loon SR or SL or Killington or even SB.  Just need to have some turns here in the east.  If it is up to my wife we would only ski in CO.


Hmmm, I think the MWV NH skiers have a pretty legit beef with Vail but that’s been very well covered in this thread. Not sure what’s political about that.


----------



## Domeskier (May 6, 2021)

abc said:


> That's probably fair, as the pay would be negotiated by the union going forward. It's up to the new union to prove its worth by getting a better wage to compensate for that



Agreed.  Comp for union members is set by the collective bargaining agreement.  They froze themselves out of a bonus if the CBA doesn't provide for one.


----------



## thebigo (May 6, 2021)

I suspect the word 'political' was nothing more than a poor choice of words. There is nothing political about cutting the season length by two months, or absolute bare minimum snow making or idling key lifts while other lifts have 30+ minute lines.

When they announced 'This changes everything', I kept an open mind hoping for actual change that would address their myriad failures. Only to find out, they actually thought the biggest problem was that pass prices were $100 too high. If I was a midweek boston based daytripper, I would probably still pick up  a cheap pass. As someone who needs kids seasonal programs - never again.

As you read through the reason people still buy their pass, they fall into two groups and I suspect neither is sustainable.

- Tied to one of their mountains via real estate.
- The pass is so damn cheap, why not buy it.


----------



## PAabe (May 6, 2021)

I've always called it a hot water heater too

and Vail did bare minimum with Big Boulder similar to NH areas.  Previously known for a long season due to highest base elevation in poconos.  Additionally did not perform lift maintenance and staff to adequate levels.


----------



## Mum skier (May 6, 2021)

Ikon need to work on their marketing a bit.  There was much written about the 20% off for Epic.  But for a family of 4 the cheaper Ikon kids price, combined with another 100 off Kids if you buy adults as well only gave about a $50 difference for 2 adults, 2 kids families.   If you were renewing Ikon even less.

So next year (well year after next I suppose now) without the Epic discount I think will be time to switch.


----------



## abc (May 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> As you read through the reason people still buy their pass, they fall into two groups and I suspect neither is sustainable.
> 
> - Tied to one of their mountains via real estate.
> - The pass is so damn cheap, why not buy it.


The 21/22 pass Epic discount is to compensate for the Ikon passholders who deferred their 20/21 Ikon pass to 21/22. That number is not that small, as I personally knew quite a few. That's a market segment Vail lost for the 21/22 season. So Vail is fighting to attract buyers who're still free to buy Epic passes.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2021)

abc said:


> The 21/22 pass Epic discount is to compensate for the Ikon passholders who deferred their 20/21 Ikon pass to 21/22. That number is not that small, as I personally knew quite a few. That's a market segment Vail lost for the 21/22 season. So Vail is fighting to attract buyers who're still free to buy Epic passes.


So is Vail thinking that folks in that camp will buy an Epic AND Ikon?  BTW I've seen a fair number of people having issues using their "rollover" credit with Ikon.  The financing is also not popular.


----------



## ss20 (May 6, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Ikon need to work on their marketing a bit.  There was much written about the 20% off for Epic.  But for a family of 4 the cheaper Ikon kids price, combined with another 100 off Kids if you buy adults as well only gave about a $50 difference for 2 adults, 2 kids families.   If you were renewing Ikon even less.
> 
> So next year (well year after next I suppose now) without the Epic discount I think will be time to switch.



Ikon is still the "new kid on the block" and a lot less known than Epic, and I think that hurts their marketing.  Epic/Vail also has properties close to population centers while Ikon does not to the same extent.  Vail has a near-monopoly on the Denver market, and a total monopoly on the NYC market, and PA market.  Ikon only really has Utah where their options are certainly, undeniably better than Vail.  CA you can split down the middle as Ikon has Mammouth and Squaw while Vail has Heavenly, Kirkwood, and Northstar (maybe one more too, iirc).


----------



## cdskier (May 6, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Ikon is still the "new kid on the block" and a lot less known than Epic, and I think that hurts their marketing.  Epic/Vail also has properties close to population centers while Ikon does not to the same extent.  Vail has a near-monopoly on the Denver market, and a total monopoly on the NYC market, and PA market.  Ikon only really has Utah where their options are certainly, undeniably better than Vail.  CA you can split down the middle as Ikon has Mammouth and Squaw while Vail has Heavenly, Kirkwood, and Northstar (maybe one more too, iirc).



I'm not sure I agree with Vail having a "total monopoly on the NYC market". I know a decent number of NJ/NYC metro people that have Ikon passes. Certainly Vail has a larger number than Ikon from this market, but a total monopoly is not accurate.


----------



## p_levert (May 6, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure I agree with Vail having a "total monopoly on the NYC market". I know a decent number of NJ/NYC metro people that have Ikon passes. Certainly Vail has a larger number than Ikon from this market, but a total monopoly is not accurate.


Vail certainly does not have a monopoly on Denver either.  It's WP/Eldora/Copper/A-Basin vs. Keystone/Breck?  With those choices, I choose Ikon.


----------



## Edd (May 6, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Vail certainly does not have a monopoly on Denver either.  It's WP/Eldora/Copper/A-Basin vs. Keystone/Breck?  With those choices, I choose Ikon.


Vail/Beaver?


----------



## ss20 (May 6, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Vail certainly does not have a monopoly on Denver either.  It's WP/Eldora/Copper/A-Basin vs. Keystone/Breck?  With those choices, I choose Ikon.



I would think most of the general public would go with Vail, Beaver, Breck, and Keystone all on the same pass....lot more terrain over Copper, Winter Park, A-basin, and Eldora.  Same with NYC being Hunter/Mt Snow/Okemo all being within 4 hours, vs Ikon which only has Windham and Stratton within the same distance.  

If you looked at the more diehard skiers like us here on AZ the results are different.  I live an hour from NYC and while Epic has much closer options for me I still go with Ikon as @cdskier says.


----------



## p_levert (May 6, 2021)

Vail and the Beav are tough places to go for a day trip.  It's a longer drive with an extra mountain pass and it's a pain to park and get started when you get there.  Notice that I also excluded Steamboat for Ikon, which is also a tough day ski from Denver.  When you throw in weekend trips, there's also CB for Epic and the Aspens for Ikon.  I think Ikon is the better choice for Denver skiers.


----------



## jaytrem (May 6, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Water heater is a great DIY job..they get around 2 to 3 K to replace them..


That's crazy, I paid right about $1200 recently.  Would have done it myself, but didn't have the time.  If it was 2 to 3k, I would have found the time.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Vail and the Beav are tough places to go for a day trip.  It's a longer drive with an extra mountain pass and it's a pain to park and get started when you get there.  Notice that I also excluded Steamboat for Ikon, which is also a tough day ski from Denver.  When you throw in weekend trips, there's also CB for Epic and the Aspens for Ikon.  I think Ikon is the better choice for Denver skiers.



It was 2.5 hours from Colorado Springs and we day tripped it often,  Beaver was 2 hours and 45.  It really is not that bad unless you choose the wrong time to go! For the past five years, we always went on Christmas and New years Day - Vail and Beaver are ghost towns on the slopes.  Many times the weekend before or after a long holiday weekend is good too!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2021)

So.....seems like despite most of the yelling and screaming, it appears that Vail was right that all people care about is $$$$ because most folks renewed.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....seems like despite most of the yelling and screaming, it appears that Vail was right that all people care about is $$$$ because most folks renewed.



We did not renew because of the east we did because of the west


----------



## xlr8r (May 6, 2021)

Have not renewed a full pass yet.  Will probably buy a few epic day passes just to ski 3-4 days between Attitash and Wildcat because I have relatives in MWV.  But I have no intention of going to Sunapee, Crotched, Mt Snow, Stowe, Okemo again next year.

My current plan for next year for preseason pass/ticket purchases is:

Indy Plus Pass -already purchased
3 or 4 day Epic day pass - mentioned earlier for Attitash and Wildcat
New England 5 day Ticket pack - If Boyne offers this again for primarily Sunday River, but also maybe one day at Loon.


----------



## p_levert (May 6, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> It was 2.5 hours from Colorado Springs and we day tripped it often,  Beaver was 2 hours and 45.  It really is not that bad unless you choose the wrong time to go! For the past five years, we always went on Christmas and New years Day - Vail and Beaver are ghost towns on the slopes.  Many times the weekend before or after a long holiday weekend is good too!


I think this works better if you live in Colorado Springs.  If you're coming from Denver, then it's the nightmare slog up I70.  After that, Vail/Beav becomes a bridge too far.


----------



## kingslug (May 6, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Not around here......
> Just paid my bill w/ Sila Plumbing ($1,300) and it clearly says HOT WATER HEATER Replacement


Thats a good price.


----------



## kingslug (May 6, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I was out on the road last Saturday with beautiful weather here in CT and the traffic was unreal.  Like peak summer Saturday traffic.  Nuts.


The Merritt is fun.......when the pandemic started I could get into and out of the city in 1 hour each..now its 2 to 2.5 home. And my parking garage is packed..so..its back to the plague infested trains...


----------



## abc (May 6, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Vail certainly does not have a monopoly on Denver either.  It's WP/Eldora/Copper/A-Basin vs. Keystone/Breck?  With those choices, I choose Ikon.





Edd said:


> Vail/Beaver?





p_levert said:


> If you're coming from Denver, then it's the nightmare slog up I70. After that, Vail/Beav becomes a bridge too far.


The WP is hugely popular with the Denver crowd. Eldora for families, I'm told. Ikon offers a pretty strong competition. May even be more favorable for the Denverites.

It's people who have property in Frisco/Breck that are more leaning towards Epic. For them, Vail/Beaver are reasonably easy to get to. And Breck and Keystone at the doorstep. Still, Ikon (Copper) caters to good many of the Summit county locals. For they can get to Steamboat on a day trip.

So Vail definitely don't have any monopoly for the Denver crowd. Back when A-basin was part of Epic was probably closer to that. Not any more now that AB switched side.


----------



## ss20 (May 6, 2021)

abc said:


> The WP is hugely popular with the Denver crowd. Eldora for families, I'm told. Ikon offers a pretty strong competition. May even be more favorable for the Denverites.
> 
> It's people who have property in Frisco/Breck that are more leaning towards Epic. For them, Vail/Beaver are reasonably easy to get to. And Breck and Keystone at the doorstep. Still, Ikon (Copper) caters to good many of the Summit county locals. For they can get to Steamboat on a day trip.
> 
> So Vail definitely don't have any monopoly for the Denver crowd. Back when A-basin was part of Epic was probably closer to that. Not any more now that AB switched side.



That's true about A-basin, I had forgotten about them switching.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Have not renewed a full pass yet.  Will probably buy a few epic day passes just to ski 3-4 days between Attitash and Wildcat because I have relatives in MWV.  But I have no intention of going to Sunapee, Crotched, Mt Snow, Stowe, Okemo again next year.
> 
> My current plan for next year for preseason pass/ticket purchases is:
> 
> ...



What was the cost this season on Epic day passes?  I don't recall the product.  If reasonable, I'd be in for a few Wildcat days.


----------



## thebigo (May 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What was the cost this season on Epic day passes?  I don't recall the product.  If reasonable, I'd be in for a few Wildcat days.


It is around $60 - $70 per day for non-holiday. You would be better off finding someone with a buddy ticket to spare.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> It is around $60 - $70 per day for non-holiday. You would be better off finding someone with a buddy ticket to spare.



Well, $70 it is then.  All of my buddies are divorced from Vail next season like me


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, $70 it is then.  All of my buddies are divorced from Vail next season like me


Yeah, I think that you are the only one I can think of who is not renewing.


----------



## snoseek (May 6, 2021)

I doubt I renew. If I'm still stuck in southern NH then its actually tempting. I do ski mostly midweek.

I spent more days at Cannon last winter so they definitely get my money as Its well run and close.


----------



## thebigo (May 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, I think that you are the only one I can think of who is not renewing.


Best I can determine there were a half dozen NH based epic passholders on AZ this year. Edd is the only one that has re-upped. I also have a high school buddy in metro Boston that bought six ikon passes next year over epic, he has four kids. There is another family in town that I believe is moving on from epic next year but not sure if they did. 

Very limited survey suggests most of the western New england and New York crowd renewed epic. Eastern New england is looking into alternatives.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 7, 2021)

Two guys I ski with most frequently, xWhaler and frapcrap, are moving on.  One a family of 4, the other a family of 3.  Both Southern NH based like myself.


----------



## abc (May 7, 2021)

thebigo said:


> western New england


Where exactly is western New England? Never heard that term before.


----------



## skiur (May 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Where exactly is western New England? Never heard that term before.



I never heard the term before either but it is pretty self explanatory.


----------



## cdskier (May 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Where exactly is western New England? Never heard that term before.



There's a college called "Western New England".


----------



## NYDB (May 7, 2021)

skiur said:


> I never heard the term before either but it is pretty self explanatory.


west of 91?


----------



## thebigo (May 7, 2021)

People talk about east or west of the Connecticut River but it is correct that you dont hear the term east or west new england, you do hear northern or southern new england. 

Wednesday was solar panels, yesterday water heaters, today regions of new england - the summer sucks.


----------



## jaytrem (May 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There's a college called "Western New England".


Which is east of both 91 and the CT river.  They need to change there name to "Almost Western New England"


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Where exactly is western New England? Never heard that term before.


As said, it is like east of the Connecticut River/I-91.  Pretty much the Berkshires and western CT.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Best I can determine there were a half dozen NH based epic passholders on AZ this year. Edd is the only one that has re-upped. I also have a high school buddy in metro Boston that bought six ikon passes next year over epic, he has four kids. There is another family in town that I believe is moving on from epic next year but not sure if they did.
> 
> Very limited survey suggests most of the western New england and New York crowd renewed epic. Eastern New england is looking into alternatives.


Yeah by no means scientific.  Just based on my "so who renewed?" post that was followed by a stream of "yesses".  That surprised me.


----------



## cdskier (May 7, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Which is east of both 91 and the CT river.  They need to change there name to "Almost Western New England"



All they need to do is move the campus about 4-5 miles west and they'll be good!


----------



## abc (May 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As said, it is like east of the Connecticut River/I-91.  Pretty much the Berkshires and western CT.


Isn't Vermont also "east of the Connecticut River/I-91"?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Isn't Vermont also "east of the Connecticut River/I-91"?


Some of 91 yes.  Nowhere in the state is east of the CT though.  That's the border


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2021)

abc said:


> Isn't Vermont also "east of the Connecticut River/I-91"?


That's true, but many consider Vermont to be "Northern New England."


----------



## KustyTheKlown (May 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There's a college called "Western New England".


 
one of my buddies went to WNEC, before they upgraded to WNEU. its in Springfield.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 7, 2021)

p_levert said:


> I think this works better if you live in Colorado Springs.  If you're coming from Denver, then it's the nightmare slog up I70.  After that, Vail/Beav becomes a bridge too far.



It was faster for us on I 70 actually.  But we did have the back route as an alternative.  It does take about 15 minutes longer but doable.  We generally check waze to see which route is fastest and try to beat that.  Like I mentioned we would go to either on days where we knew traffic was lighter.

As far as, an every weekend trip it is tough on I 70.


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> That's true about A-basin, I had forgotten about them switching.



We did Epic and A Basin passes for next season.


----------



## cdskier (May 7, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> one of my buddies went to WNEC, before they upgraded to WNEU. its in Springfield.


I had a friend that went there as well when it was still WNEC. My brother went there for 1 year too but then transferred to a school in NJ.


----------



## skijay (May 10, 2021)

Regarding Vail properties, does anyone have any intel if the bike park at Mount Snow will operate for the Summer of 2021?  Usually by now I've received emails about the opening date, operating schedule, and season pass purchase information.   I've checked the Mt Snow site and its still in "winter" mode.


----------



## skimagic (May 10, 2021)

There's a little bit more to Western New England than a college, there's a language. 

Sound patterns historically associated with Western New England English include the features of rhoticity (full pronunciation of all _r_ sounds).  Vocabulary features that predominate in Western New England English include _grinder_ for _sub_ (_submarine sandwich_), and _tag sale_ for _garage sale_ (predominant in Connecticut and Western Massachusetts)






						Western New England English - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mbedle (May 10, 2021)

skijay said:


> Regarding Vail properties, does anyone have any intel if the bike park at Mount Snow will operate for the Summer of 2021?  Usually by now I've received emails about the opening date, operating schedule, and season pass purchase information.   I've checked the Mt Snow site and its still in "winter" mode.


I got into their summer activities page and it no longer list the bike park (only golf and scenic rides). Golf page was updated with 2021 dates and rates, so maybe its not going to run this year.


----------



## 2Planker (May 10, 2021)

We in the MWV heard that Vail has NO INTEREST in maintaining any summer activities at The Cat or Tash


----------



## abc (May 10, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I got into their summer activities page and it no longer list the bike park (only golf and scenic rides). Golf page was updated with 2021 dates and rates, so maybe its not going to run this year.


Get an e-bike and just ride up?


----------



## urungus (May 10, 2021)

skimagic said:


> There's a little bit more to Western New England than a college, there's a language.
> 
> Sound patterns historically associated with Western New England English include the features of rhoticity (full pronunciation of all _r_ sounds).  Vocabulary features that predominate in Western New England English include _grinder_ for _sub_ (_submarine sandwich_), and _tag sale_ for _garage sale_ (predominant in Connecticut and Western Massachusetts)
> 
> ...



Also there are no hamburgers here, only hamburg


----------



## thetrailboss (May 10, 2021)

urungus said:


> Also there are no hamburgers here, only hamburg
> 
> View attachment 51683


Mmmmm....grinders.


----------



## drjeff (May 10, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I got into their summer activities page and it no longer list the bike park (only golf and scenic rides). Golf page was updated with 2021 dates and rates, so maybe its not going to run this year.


It was on their social media pages a couple of weeks ago that the bike park will open up Memorial Day Weekend for the season


----------



## NYDB (May 10, 2021)

Go to K or b east highland or even platt for lift served mtb


----------



## giantfan (May 10, 2021)

Mount Sunapee confirmed on their facebook page today that lift-served mountain biking will be back this summer. Okemo also announced mountain biking will be returning.


----------



## urungus (May 26, 2021)

Vail Resorts Closes Stevens Pass Bike Park For 2nd Consecutive Season
					

^Courtesy: Stevens Pass The mountain bike community is ablaze this morning with the announcement that the Stevens Pass, WA bike park will not operate for a 2nd consecutive season. The park was clos…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## skimagic (May 26, 2021)

giantfan said:


> Mount Sunapee confirmed on their facebook page today that lift-served mountain biking will be back this summer. Okemo also announced mountain biking will be returning.


Okemo is opening the mountain bike park on June 17, lower mountain only.  The 2 summit bike trails are closed this year due to the Green Ridge chair replacement.    Mount Snow still hasn't posted a schedule yet.


----------



## drjeff (May 26, 2021)

skimagic said:


> Okemo is opening the mountain bike park on June 17, lower mountain only.  The 2 summit bike trails are closed this year due to the Green Ridge chair replacement.    Mount Snow still hasn't posted a schedule yet.



Was up on their social media pages today that the bike park opens this Saturday for the season.

Getting upstaged by the uproar they created yesterday that they're going to be charging for parking for roughly 50% of their parking spaces this coming season on Weekends and Holidays and 2 lots (the 1 right behind the main base lodge and the 1 at Carinthia right next to the hill) seemingly every day this coming season....

Not a good thing for sure, and likely going to keep the Dover Police Department busy ticketing cars parked illegally on the various access roads when the free parking spaces are filled and folks don't want to pay for the closer in spaces


----------



## chuckstah (May 26, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Was up on their social media pages today that the bike park opens this Saturday for the season.
> 
> Getting upstaged by the uproar they created yesterday that they're going to be charging for parking for roughly 50% of their parking spaces this coming season on Weekends and Holidays and 2 lots (the 1 right behind the main base lodge and the 1 at Carinthia right next to the hill) seemingly every day this coming season....
> 
> Not a good thing for sure, and likely going to keep the Dover Police Department busy ticketing cars parked illegally on the various access roads when the free parking spaces are filled and folks don't want to pay for the closer in spaces


What a clusterfu&# it's going to be on peak days when the free parking is filled by 9. Even some Fridays I'd think. All to enhance the guest experience.  









						Directions By Bus, Train, or Shuttle | Mount Snow Ski Resort
					






					www.mountsnow.com


----------



## ss20 (May 26, 2021)

The irony is Mount Snow has more than enough parking on all but a literal handful of days each season.  You can read about it in the master plan filings.  They rarely go above 75% full on all but a single-digit number of days a season.  Of course, this was pre-Epic so maybe the crowds increased a ton?


----------



## skiur (May 27, 2021)

I used to ski Mt snow a  lot in the mid 2000's.  The parking there definitely seemed to be pretty damn full every Saturday I was there.  Only been there once in the last 5 years and the parking was pretty filled up, and that was a Friday.


----------



## icecoast1 (May 27, 2021)

ss20 said:


> The irony is Mount Snow has more than enough parking on all but a literal handful of days each season.  You can read about it in the master plan filings.  They rarely go above 75% full on all but a single-digit number of days a season.  Of course, this was pre-Epic so maybe the crowds increased a ton?


Only really had one year to compare before the pandemic, but it didnt really seem all that different than the previous years- a huge uptick in traffic definitely happened with the introduction of the peak pass, but I'm not sure about much with the epic.  Hard to tell though because there isnt enough of a sample.  Nice money grab by Vail though


----------



## drjeff (May 27, 2021)

Last season, from what I recall, there was only 1 day when they exceeded their parking lot capacity (or at least had cars parking around the periphery of Snow Lake and what looked to be FULL parking lots).

Most seasons, that will happen maybe 2 or 3 times.

Last season you didn't have a decent percentage of the Sundance Lodge lot filled with tour buses as you typically do as well.

One of the things that may decrease slightly some of the typical parking lot volume is that folks who live in condo complexes/private homes along the Moover shuttle route, who may typically drive to the mountain, may now choose to use the Moover service, or at least more than they have in the past. I know my many, and multiple other friends that I have talked with over the last few days are certainly contemplating this option, and certainly aren't thrilled about this decision in general, as many of us did have season parking passes


----------



## FBGM (May 27, 2021)

Lols at Mount Blow and Vail doing whatever it takes to upset customers.


----------



## NYDB (May 27, 2021)

Is Vail charging for parking at Stowe and Okemo?  They can probably squeeze more money from those folks too.


----------



## Smellytele (May 27, 2021)

Wasn’t enough to piss off wildcat and attitash skiers so what the hell let’s go after mt snow skiers


----------



## JimG. (May 27, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Is Vail charging for parking at Stowe and Okemo?  They can probably squeeze more money from those folks too.


They will.


----------



## Dickc (May 27, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Is Vail charging for parking at Stowe and Okemo?  They can probably squeeze more money from those folks too.


Vail has to find an income stream to make up for the 20% discount on all passes this year.........


----------



## ctdubl07 (May 27, 2021)

As abutters, we were privy to some updates and one of the more viable/explored parts of their master plan just prior to the sale was the parking garage at Carinthia. It was going to be needed for the planned 4-5 residential bldgs. Over the previous 2 summers, a ton of work was done on the southerly lot in preparation. Drainage was rerouted, huge amounts of filled removed and replaced with blasted rock from LJohn and grading done all around. That project is now a likely specs on the distant horizon but housing and that deck would certainly change many of the perspectives of the Carinthia area. I for one now will be offering parking at $5 less than the Mtn!


----------



## drjeff (May 27, 2021)

One of the unintended consequences I can see happening on the hill as a result of this move, is that Long John becomes even more of a sh$t show on the weekends that it already can be.

The Carinthia crowd, some of whom will want nothing to do with paying for parking on the weekends I am sure, nor waiting until 1PM when the lots become free of charge at Carinthia to get their park laps in., will park over at the free main base area lots, then head to the top, and head down Long John to get to Carinthia. Long John already has enough pressure on it with the beginners and the number of skiers/riders making their way towards Carinthia and the trails that way on the Main Face. Then at the end of the day, those same folks who used the top 1/2 of Long John to access Carinthia, will now use the lower 1/2 late day to get back to the main base area, also not a good on hill traffic situation.

The park crowd, a decent percentage of whom just ski/ride Carinthia their entire time out on the hill many days, will now be spread out across the main face again, which will create some problems for sure (thinking back to the various videos posted this Spring where the Karen's and Ken's got into it with the park crowd.

Forget the parking ire this will bring, it's also likely to create more on hill ire situations as well, especially on the busy weekend days....


----------



## kingslug (May 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> They will.


Thats right..make the slugs life harder..go ahead...


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Lols at Mount Blow and Vail doing whatever it takes to upset customers.



The pursuit of ancillary revenue is just beginning, this is bottom of the 2nd Inning at best.   
Every corporate rollup does this regardless of the industry, it's a step on the path to eventual destruction.


----------



## JimG. (May 27, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Thats right..make the slugs life harder..go ahead...


Well...not my intention.

I'm not charging you to park anyway, talk to Vail. As BG said, this is to be expected with big corporate mergers. I'm guessing there will soon be charges for lodge access as well.

I wonder how much Snow plans to charge for a day of parking.


----------



## O09 (May 27, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> As abutters, we were privy to some updates and one of the more viable/explored parts of their master plan just prior to the sale was the parking garage at Carinthia. It was going to be needed for the planned 4-5 residential bldgs. Over the previous 2 summers, a ton of work was done on the southerly lot in preparation. Drainage was rerouted, huge amounts of filled removed and replaced with blasted rock from LJohn and grading done all around. That project is now a likely specs on the distant horizon but housing and that deck would certainly change many of the perspectives of the Carinthia area. I for one now will be offering parking at $5 less than the Mtn!


Carinthia parking lot got classified by the state as a brownfield.  No way they spend the extra money to put a parking garage there, knowing you are looking at ~10mil remediation costs before getting started.  Plenty of other non-brownfield sites that they have to work with.


----------



## mbedle (May 28, 2021)

O09 said:


> Carinthia parking lot got classified by the state as a brownfield.  No way they spend the extra money to put a parking garage there, knowing you are looking at ~10mil remediation costs before getting started.  Plenty of other non-brownfield sites that they have to work with.


Subsurface parking will be used for the residential development at Carinthia (i.e., beneath each building). A parking deck is proposed over the existing Carinthia parking lot.


----------



## O09 (May 28, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Subsurface parking will be used for the residential development at Carinthia (i.e., beneath each building). A parking deck is proposed over the existing Carinthia parking lot.


Where the parking deck was proposed is a stump dump with contaminated soil.  The stumps are 20 ft thick within the lot.  Those stumps need to be separated out via the soil segregation plan if they plan to put in a parking deck.  Without doing so, the footings would collapse as the stumps decompose.  

So they proposed a underground garage after the above ground deck was no longer viable.

But, the soil that comprises the lot besides the stumps is contaminated by petroleum and other contaminants, located approx 7-14 ft down on the southern end of the lot.  So Peaks second plan for an underground parking lot (not where the condos were proposed) is impossible due to the very expensive nature in disposing of contaminated soil and segregating out the stumps.  

Once Peaks got their parking lot cut off from expanding southward, when the stream at it's southern edge got reclassified, the parking expansion plans at Carinthia and associated condos effectively ended.


----------



## mbedle (May 28, 2021)

O09 said:


> Where the parking deck was proposed is a stump dump with contaminated soil.  The stumps are 20 ft thick within the lot.  Those stumps need to be separated out via the soil segregation plan if they plan to put in a parking deck.  Without doing so, the footings would collapse as the stumps decompose.
> 
> So they proposed a underground garage after the above ground deck was no longer viable.
> 
> ...


I knew about the stump dump and PAH in soils beneath the current lot. I didn't realize that the stumps went down 20 feet. Is the stump dump present beneath the entire lot?


----------



## O09 (May 28, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I knew about the stump dump and PAH in soils beneath the current lot. I didn't realize that the stumps went down 20 feet. Is the stump dump present beneath the entire lot?


Yes, the stumps are underneath the entire lot.  It was permitted as a stump dump in the 80s when Stugger expanded the Carinthia terrain to the top of where the quad lift goes.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 28, 2021)

Haha


----------



## spiderpig (May 29, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> What a clusterfu&# it's going to be on peak days when the free parking is filled by 9. Even some Fridays I'd think. All to enhance the guest experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fridays should be fine, since there's much more free parking. What a joke making all of Carinthia paid on the weekend. As an all-day skier, I wish they could make the peak day parking free if you arrive before 7:30. 

I'm sure this is a test for Okemo and Stowe, but I'm surprised the test wasn't done at Stowe.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 29, 2021)

This is the most hilarious line in the whole social media release

*These changes will help ensure faster, more efficient parking for all our valued guests, especially at our busiest times.*

When has adding a toll point to anything in life resulted "faster and more efficient"?  Answer: never

How many people are going to show up hoping for free parking, find it full, then have to backtrack to the paid areas? And then they get there and realize they don't have the app, so they pull off to the side of the road trying to download the app and whoops, forgot their apple ID and have to reset that. 

I suppose I can appreciate some small weekend and holiday only paid premium lots to capture some more revenue, but this just seems over the top and destined to piss people off


----------



## MikeDeJ (May 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> This is the most hilarious line in the whole social media release
> 
> *These changes will help ensure faster, more efficient parking for all our valued guests, especially at our busiest times.*
> 
> ...


As a Mount Snow regular and mostly a  mid week skier this wont effect me as much but it is going to be ugly.  This is going to take some infrastructure/employees to cover all those lots, people they never have.  The ticket scanners hardly work, how is the plate scanner going to work??   How about with snow covered cars  while it is snowing?  Going to be a shitshow with that much parking set aside.  The Carinthia side with all the young adults is going to be really special (not really sure all of Carinthia is really going to be all paid??).  The cars on a Sat will be backed up to Willmington!!  Parked on Handle road, the Dover PD will be busy and will not put up with this (and should not).

Now if they sell a reasonable season parking pass, $100-$150, most people would pay and move on.  I hear they are not going to and it is going to be $20 a day, that is bull shit and setting themselves up for a shitshow.  

There is a way to make more money and not charge for parking, not pay for the employees in the lot, not pay for the infrastructure, charge more for the season pass!!!!!


----------



## Smellytele (May 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Haha


every time I have skied there I have been in lot A except once.


----------



## gittist (May 29, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Was up on their social media pages today that the bike park opens this Saturday for the season.
> 
> Getting upstaged by the uproar they created yesterday that they're going to be charging for parking for roughly 50% of their parking spaces this coming season on Weekends and Holidays and 2 lots (the 1 right behind the main base lodge and the 1 at Carinthia right next to the hill) seemingly every day this coming season....
> 
> Not a good thing for sure, and likely going to keep the Dover Police Department busy ticketing cars parked illegally on the various access roads when the free parking spaces are filled and folks don't want to pay for the closer in spaces


Now you know how the price reduction for next year's EPIC passes was financed!

 "..improve the guest experience at Mount Snow Resort.." is B.S.!!


----------



## icecoast1 (May 30, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Fridays should be fine, since there's much more free parking. What a joke making all of Carinthia paid on the weekend. As an all-day skier, I wish they could make the peak day parking free if you arrive before 7:30.


I'm surprised it took them that long to do this, Carinthia is the best place to park on the whole resort


----------



## p_levert (May 31, 2021)

I have not posted on this thread since I am an Ikon passholder.  But, yeah, Vail sucks!


----------



## kingslug (Jun 1, 2021)

Damn..they still suck....


----------



## mbedle (Jun 2, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Fridays should be fine, since there's much more free parking. What a joke making all of Carinthia paid on the weekend. As an all-day skier, I wish they could make the peak day parking free if you arrive before 7:30.
> 
> I'm sure this is a test for Okemo and Stowe, but I'm surprised the test wasn't done at Stowe.


Stowe has had paid parking for years. They expanded it a couple of years ago.


----------



## skiur (Jun 2, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Stowe has had paid parking for years. They expanded it a couple of years ago.



Half of their available parking?


----------



## kingslug (Jun 2, 2021)

Not half..There is plenty of parking if you get there early enough..its a pretty big lot.


----------



## machski (Jun 2, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Stowe has had paid parking for years. They expanded it a couple of years ago.


Paid parking or premium parking zones with an annual subscription for such?  Most larger ski areas have premium paid parking now for years on weekends and holidays.  Mount Snow has gone beyond that for next season, doesn't sound like you can do a season subscription and most will be paying DAILY to park on weekends and holidays there from the looks of it.  That is a huge jump, more like Vail itself now than what I am used to seeing in the east for paid prrimo parking.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 2, 2021)

Seems like they have greatly scaled back their Summer ops at Attitash as well, as all that is now listed is the Alpine Slide and Scenic Chairlift rides, no zip line, mountain  biking, waterslide and other base area Summer attractions they have had listed up on their website....


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2021)

Well, perhaps they liked their low staffing reduced lift operations business so much in the winter that they adopted the same for summer!  Maybe they'll do Mountain Bike Mondays and Waterslide Wednesdays!


----------



## skiur (Jun 2, 2021)

So glad Vail has not bought my home mountain, not sure what I would do if they did.


----------



## Greenmountainski (Jun 2, 2021)

I live next to Tater, used to work there.  All I know is whatever fool makes a  change to that majestic golf course will forever be haunted by the ghost of Eric Griffiths. R.I.P. To the great superintendent


----------



## Mum skier (Jun 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Seems like they have greatly scaled back their Summer ops at Attitash as well, as all that is now listed is the Alpine Slide and Scenic Chairlift rides, no zip line, mountain  biking, waterslide and other base area Summer attractions they have had listed up on their website....


Two summers ago (2019) we drove past Attitash coming back from a hike somewhere close. My kids saw the water slides and begged to go. It was the end of the summer so I promised them we would go next year. Well “next year” was 2020 so no summer stuff at Attitash (parents quite relieved actually). This year we did a days skiing there and they saw the slides and remembered m promise. So I promised we would take them this summer.  And just today I checked and only the slide open this year.  So third year in a row I will disappoint them.
Quite relived TBH, if they are as short staffed in the summer as they were in the winter would be deja vue for lines all over again!

So instead I booked a night at Carter hut and we will hike wildcats, Carter and moriah on a 2 day, 1 night trip instead. So much better for character buildin!


----------



## ss20 (Jun 2, 2021)

I don't want to defend Vail but it's impossible to find staff for anything seasonal and low-paying right now.  Labor market is tight as its ever been.  Maybe that's the reason for the lack of summer ops?  Not saying I'm giving Vail the benefit of the doubt but it's possible.


----------



## Edd (Jun 3, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I don't want to defend Vail but it's impossible to find staff for anything seasonal and low-paying right now.  Labor market is tight as its ever been.  Maybe that's the reason for the lack of summer ops?  Not saying I'm giving Vail the benefit of the doubt but it's possible.


Staffing definitely not helping. Vail might not mind a bit about that, as summer attractions aren’t always profitable. They still have a winter staffing issue though. This next ski season will make or break Vail for me, and it’s all about Wildcat. I’m not asking for miracles but if it runs similar when it’s essentially freed from pandemic restrictions then that’s it, I guess.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2021)

Sure staffing is a major issue right now in the service industry.

But look right down the street at Cranmore.  





__





						Cranmore > Summer > Summer Activities > Mountain Adventure Park
					






					www.cranmore.com
				




Or how about up the hill at Bretton Woods





__





						Seasonal Activities | Omni Mount Washington Resort
					

Mount Washington Resort in Bretton Woods, New Hampshire offers a variety of activities and recreation in the beautiful White Mountains. View our event and activity schedule.



					www.brettonwoods.com
				




They both seem to be gearing up for full operations.

There's also Storeyland and Santa's Village in full swing in the area.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2021)

As far as what gets my business back, I would have to see massive improvements in the snowmaking operations at both Wildcat and Attitash.  Both were brutally slow with terrain expansion last year compared to the local competition.  I'd also have to see far better lift operations at Attitash.  Unless both the Yankee and Summit Triple are running 7 days a week all season from Christmas week through the end of the season, I'm not interested in giving Vail my money. 

Mother Nature completely saved Wildcat / Vails ass last winter.  They got lucky with some decent natural snow in January and February and enjoyed one of the longest thaw free stretches of any season in recent memory.  If not for that it would have been an even more disastrous season at Cat.


----------



## thebigo (Jun 3, 2021)

Edd said:


> This next ski season will make or break Vail for me, and it’s all about Wildcat. I’m not asking for miracles but if it runs similar when it’s essentially freed from pandemic restrictions then that’s it, I guess.



Given you appear to be the only regular NH poster that reupped, there will be a bunch of us refugees eagerly awaiting your trip reports next year for any glimmer of improvement.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 3, 2021)

Vail has a bad rep for shit pay and less than ideal work culture and maybe they're too late to fix that idk. 

I bet as funemployment ends people will return to their low paying shit jobs.


----------



## Dickc (Jun 3, 2021)

Well, for $359 bucks, I got the Northeast senior pass.  Only a few Blackout days and Sunapee and Crotched are pretty near.  I WILL make an Attitash and a Wildcat weekday on it and let you know what I see.  Have not skied either since the ASC days, so I may not have a balanced view, plus I grew up in the fixed grip days and  am used to lines as a result.....


----------



## p_levert (Jun 3, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Well, for $359 bucks, I got the Northeast senior pass.  Only a few Blackout days and Sunapee and Crotched are pretty near.  I WILL make an Attitash and a Wildcat weekday on it and let you know what I see.  Have not skied either since the ASC days, so I may not have a balanced view, plus I grew up in the fixed grip days and  am used to lines as a result.....


NE passes were already a great deal before the 20% price cut, now a super deal.  I have no idea why Vail is even doing the 20% cut, although I personally like having much cheaper access to Stowe.  But where is the business logic behind all of this?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2021)

Undercutting virtually everywhere


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 3, 2021)

Apparently they are only opening paintball at roundtop this summer.  No adventure center, which includes a lot of thing that we're typically well attended.  They also used to do summer camps that I know were a huge cash cow.  

If Katz is so damn business savvy please explain to me how you turn down revenue. I know for a fact these summer things were more than break even activity.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 3, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Apparently they are only opening paintball at roundtop this summer.  No adventure center, which includes a lot of thing that we're typically well attended.  They also used to do summer camps that I know were a huge cash cow.
> 
> If Katz is so damn business savvy please explain to me how you turn down revenue. I know for a fact these summer things were more than break even activity.



This is my ASSumption....

If you're a mom/pop ski area and you can make a little profit in the summer, that's great.  Say you spend $500,000 and you make $550,000 on summer stuff.  Not too bad and adds to your bottom line.

Now let's say you're Vail.  If you're spending $500,000 and making $550,000, your ROI looks terrible as a percentage, especially compared to what you earn in the winter selling $20 hamburgers and $1,2000 all-day private lessons.  You're better off nixing it.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 3, 2021)

p_levert said:


> NE passes were already a great deal before the 20% price cut, now a super deal.  I have no idea why Vail is even doing the 20% cut, although I personally like having much cheaper access to Stowe.  But where is the business logic behind all of this?



Because the pass is too inexpensive to not buy it.  Whether you're an avid skier, a daytripper, or DickC.... there's no reason not to get it it's so cheap.

The Epic pass is like the candy you see in line to check-out at the Supermarket.  Some people come in real quick just for the candy alone.  Others buy a bunch of other food and add it at the end.  But for $1.50 why pass it up?


----------



## p_levert (Jun 4, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Because the pass is too inexpensive to not buy it.  Whether you're an avid skier, a daytripper, or DickC.... there's no reason not to get it it's so cheap.
> 
> The Epic pass is like the candy you see in line to check-out at the Supermarket.  Some people come in real quick just for the candy alone.  Others buy a bunch of other food and add it at the end.  But for $1.50 why pass it up?



Really, I doubt it.  $350 for a pass that you don't need, or will only use one or two times, is too much.  I think that for most people the choice between Epic and Ikon is pretty simple.  You go with the pass that provides the resorts that are close to your house, condo, or whatever.  I don't think there's too many people that will routinely switch passes, and only a fairly small number who will buy both.  Vail did a 20% discount on Epic and Ikon's reaction was: no price change.  I think that tells you a lot.

OTOH, a 20% cut in the Epic Day pass should stimulate demand quite a bit.  Who doesn't want Stowe/Okemo/Hunter at a bargain price?  It worked for me.


----------



## Dickc (Jun 4, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Because the pass is too inexpensive to not buy it.  Whether you're an avid skier, a daytripper, or DickC.... there's no reason not to get it it's so cheap.
> 
> The Epic pass is like the candy you see in line to check-out at the Supermarket.  Some people come in real quick just for the candy alone.  Others buy a bunch of other food and add it at the end.  But for $1.50 why pass it up?


Oh, I get my own category???   I bought a NE Silver senior pass from Boyne also as my daughter WAS working at Sunday River.  TD Bank just “stole” her away with more pay and better benefits.  She lives fairly close to Sunday River, so I WILL go there a few times this winter.  (Free lodging and a visit!)  I’ll also go to Loon a bunch on weekdays.  I LIKE Loon.  As I’ve also had five back surgeries now, I stay out of the woods, and stick to mostly all groomers for my health.  I picked up the Epic Northeast simply BECAUSE its stupid cheap, and I will hit the New England resorts on it enough to make it worth it.  I might even make one pilgrimage to Stowe.  I last skied Stowe in early April of 1976 in amazing late season powder conditions.


----------



## Razor (Jun 4, 2021)

We got the Epic Northeast Senior Midweek Pass.  For $271, how can you beat that?  Sometimes it's good to be old.


----------



## Dickc (Jun 4, 2021)

Razor said:


> We got the Epic Northeast Senior Midweek Pass.  For $271, how can you beat that?  Sometimes it's good to be old.


And for $88. more, I can ski most weekends if I want to.  Just ONE Sunday and that extra $88. is paid for.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 4, 2021)

Dickc said:


> And for $88. more, I can ski most weekends if I want to.  Just ONE Sunday and that extra $88. is paid for.



When making the decisions, remember the payback period.  The NE value pass for a senior is $359.  If you go with the 6 day Epic Day pass with holiday blackout and limited resorts, it's $350 (no discount for seniors).  The Epic Day limited includes all of the NE resorts and many western resorts (excludes Vail, Beav, Breck, PC), so there are additional options.  For another $100, you could include Vail, Breck, etc.  It's another great option.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 4, 2021)

p_levert said:


> When making the decisions, remember the payback period.  The NE value pass for a senior is $359.  If you go with the 6 day Epic Day pass with holiday blackout and limited resorts, it's $350 (no discount for seniors).  The Epic Day limited includes all of the NE resorts and many western resorts (excludes Vail, Beav, Breck, PC), so there are additional options.  For another $100, you could include Vail, Breck, etc.  It's another great option.



Trouble following your logic!  So a person getting a Senior Northeastern Value Pass that can pretty much have unlimited skiing to all New England ski areas except Stowe (ten days) should by a 6 day pass for 9 dollars less?


----------



## p_levert (Jun 4, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Trouble following your logic!  So a person getting a Senior Northeastern Value Pass that can pretty much have unlimited skiing to all New England ski areas except Stowe (ten days) should by a 6 day pass for 9 dollars less?



You just have to be realistic about how many days you will really ski.  For myself, life gets in the way of skiing (job, work, kids, weddings, funerals).  I have an Ikon pass, which I end up using for  only 12 days or so (still a good deal).  Then there are places I like that aren't on either Epic or Ikon.  So I rather doubt I would use a NE value pass for even 6 days.  So I went with a just a few days on Epic Day, mostly to grab Stowe/Okemo and maybe CB or Keystone in CO.  Unlimited is always *so* tempting, but you have to be realistic.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 4, 2021)

p_levert said:


> You just have to be realistic about how many days you will really ski.  For myself, life gets in the way of skiing (job, work, kids, weddings, funerals).  I have an Ikon pass, which I end up using for  only 12 days or so (still a good deal).  Then there are places I like that aren't on either Epic or Ikon.  So I rather doubt I would use a NE value pass for even 6 days.  So I went with a just a few days on Epic Day, mostly to grab Stowe/Okemo and maybe CB or Keystone in CO.  Unlimited is always *so* tempting, but you have to be realistic.



Last year was an anomaly for us where we got about 10 days in.  The past 10 years not including last year, have averaged about 50 days per season.  I get a pass and I want to use the heck out of it.

In your case, you went Ikon but got the Epic 6 day to dip you foot in the Vail pool.  My guess it will be used strategically.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 5, 2021)

@dblskifanatic - I only ski around 20 days a season.  Want to ski more, but it never seems to happen.  I didn't even go with the Epic 6 day, the Epic 3 day was enough for me (along with my Ikon pass).

Thank you Vail for the price reduction, but I still think you suck!


----------



## Dickc (Jun 5, 2021)

The pass I bought allows me to ski as much as I want.  I’M RETIRED, so I can go most any time.  6 Days would not quite do it.  I wanted to be able to hit Sunapee and perhaps Crotched a few times each as they are closer than anything Boyne is from the Mass North Shore area.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 5, 2021)

Loon is only 15-25 minutes longer of a drive and quite a stark difference in terrain/product. Possibly more important they aren't Vail.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 5, 2021)

Attitash is DEAD,    BUT everything else in the MWVis now staffed,open and seemed petty packed today


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 7, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Loon is only 15-25 minutes longer of a drive and quite a stark difference in terrain/product. Possibly more important they aren't Vail.



I can only ski weekends for the most part.  I have been to Loon only one weekend on comp tickets so I really cannot complain about how busy it was.  Saturday was a shit show and Sunday was better after 12.  Thai was also about 10 years ago and never had any desire to go back.  In fact, the following season I actually got a Cannon Season Pass.

Then again with Ikon you can be selective since you are limited to either 5 or 7 days.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 7, 2021)

Sunapee is just as congested as Loon, and far less acreage. Crotched is a good mole hill, but still a mole hill, and one that got considerably busier with Epic.

Was just throwing it out there


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 7, 2021)

yUP


Newpylong said:


> Sunapee is just as congested as Loon, and far less acreage. Crotched is a good mole hill, but still a mole hill, and one that got considerably busier with Epic.
> 
> Was just throwing it out there


Yup, I have been to Sunapee several times and I am not a fan.  Every time we have been there it was a madhouse as well.  Sunapee and Loon are two Boston locations.  Loon seems to almost be a status location from Boston.  During the ski shows Loon diehards were abundant.  Almost like they liked to say it "No thanks - we ski Loon!"


----------



## Edd (Jun 7, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Sunapee is just as congested as Loon, and far less acreage. Crotched is a good mole hill, but still a mole hill, and one that got considerably busier with Epic.
> 
> Was just throwing it out there


I’ve been to both about 15 times each. Weekdays, though. Sunapee somehow has better conditions and is a better experience, and lacks what may be the worst gondola in the east.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 7, 2021)

The evil sucky empire posts quarterly results: https://investors.vailresorts.com/n...ports-fiscal-2021-third-quarter-results-early

It's a little hard to digest.  But one interesting takeaway is that an appreciable number of guests, in response to the 20% price cut, decided to upgrade to higher cost passes.  Have to admit, I hadn't considered that angle.  So a 20% price cut only resulted in a 10% reduction in revenue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Sunapee is just as congested as Loon, and far less acreage. Crotched is a good mole hill, but still a mole hill, and one that got considerably busier with Epic.
> 
> Was just throwing it out there


Without a doubt Crotched is a different place now with the crowds.  It does have killer glades when they're in.  But that's rare.  I found some exceptional off map glades at Sunapee this season as well, but again they just don't get the natural.  Really the only NH areas with consistently good glade skiing are Cannon, Bretton Woods and Wildcat.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 7, 2021)

Vail is apparently increasing their minimum pay rate to $15/hr in their western locations. They will increase the starting wages at their eastern resorts on a "market by market" basis though.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Vail is apparently increasing their minimum pay rate to $15/hr in their western locations. They will increase the starting wages at their eastern resorts on a "market by market" basis though.



That's a game-changer for the resort labor market.  $15/hr coming to the ski industry...never thought I'd see the day.  

Good on Vail.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> That's a game-changer for the resort labor market.  $15/hr coming to the ski industry...never thought I'd see the day.
> 
> Good on Vail.


The effective minimum wage in many of these towns is already over $15.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 7, 2021)

ss20 said:


> That's a game-changer for the resort labor market.  $15/hr coming to the ski industry...never thought I'd see the day.
> 
> Good on Vail.



I wouldn't jump up and down too quickly...
CA's minimum wage is $14/hr this year, and goes to $15/hr next year
CO's minimum wage is $12.32 this year and will be adjusted next year if the CPI changes
WA's minimum wage is $13.69 this year and again increases annually
So for those 3 states in the west, most will be at or pretty close to $15/hr anyway. UT is the big one for Vail though as there the minimum wage is only $7.25

Let's see what they do in the east. NH's minimum wage is only $7.25, PA is only $7.25... The "market by market" increase they plan to do in the east gives them a lot of leeway.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I wouldn't jump up and down too quickly...
> CA's minimum wage is $14/hr this year, and goes to $15/hr next year
> CO's minimum wage is $12.32 this year and will be adjusted next year if the CPI changes
> WA's minimum wage is $13.69 this year and again increases annually
> So for those 3 states in the west, most will be at or pretty close to $15/hr anyway. *UT is the big one for Vail though as there the minimum wage is only $7.25*



Vail probably needed to jack the rate in UT anyway, as housing costs absolutely skyrocketed there the last few years.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 8, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The effective minimum wage in many of these towns is already over $15.


Fast food workers starting at 14-16 in park city.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 8, 2021)

A sampling of Jackson Hole classified postings:
Dishwasher: $23 per hour
Subway sandwich artist: $18+
Housekeeper: $22
Airport security screener: $22 + housing stipend
Bus driver: $22
Delivery driver: $28

JHMR is at $13.77.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 9, 2021)

If it wasn't for the housing stipend ..you make more washing dishes than airport security...hmmm


----------



## ss20 (Jun 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> If it wasn't for the housing stipend ..you make more washing dishes than airport security...hmmm



As someone in the food industry... dishwasher is honestly not a bad gig.  You'll make more money than a busser or a hostess.  Crappy job few people want so pay is surprisingly OK as places try to keep staff turnover down.  Some states you need a permit as well.  



Another decent gig most would consider a shit job- Tollbooth collector









						2 NY Thruway toll collectors earn more than $100,000 in 2015 (salary database)
					

Search the entire 2015 payroll for the New York State Thruway Authority.




					www.newyorkupstate.com
				






> The toll collectors, Gerald Flint and Lawrence Stokely, were the top two overtime earners at the Thruway in 2015, according to state records. Flint's full pay for 2015 was nearly $107,000 and Stokely's was more than $104,000, Thruway records show.  Flint works on the Northway in Albany and earned $51,081 in overtime pay last year. Stokely works at the Depew interchange and made $48,812 in overtime, according to state records.  Flint worked, on average, 64 hours a week, according to the Thruway. Stokely worked an average of 62 hours a week. Both have worked at the Thruway since the 1970s and make $24.24 an hour in base pay.





> About 86 percent of the Thruway's 1,181 toll collectors are part-time workers; their pay starts at $12.59 an hour.



$12.59 in 2015 is $14.19 in 2021 dollars.  Not a bad gig for some of the communities in the rural areas of the Thruway.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Another decent gig most would consider a shit job- Tollbooth collector
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except the gig is up. NY went to cashless tolling during Covid.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 9, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Except the gig is up. NY went to cashless tolling during Covid.



Good move by NY. Now if only NJ would smarten up and do this...


----------



## icecoast1 (Jun 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Good move by NY. Now if only NJ would smarten up and do this...


Good move in spirit, but like anything else in NY, being executed horribly.   People are being over/mis charged left and right by the new system.   If you ever drive in New York, make sure you check your ezpass bill or bill the state sends you, New York can't seem to figure out how to scan and invoice people properly


----------



## cdskier (Jun 10, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Good move in spirit, but like anything else in NY, being executed horribly.   People are being over/mis charged left and right by the new system.   If you ever drive in New York, make sure you check your ezpass bill or bill the state sends you, New York can't seem to figure out how to scan and invoice people properly


I've had 0 problems so far on any of my drives on the thruway with the new system...


----------



## skiur (Jun 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I've had 0 problems so far on any of my drives on the thruway with the new system...



Same, I have never had an issue on my ez-pass bill.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jun 10, 2021)

skiur said:


> Same, I have never had an issue on my ez-pass bill.


The people that seem to be having the biggest issues are the ones that don't have ez passes.  Although each time I've driven on 90 and gone multiple exits; the system scans me as having gotten on and off the thruway multiple times on the trip,which doesn't happen.  Hasn't been an issue so far only going 1 exit


----------



## cdskier (Jun 10, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> The people that seem to be having the biggest issues are the ones that don't have ez passes.



That part doesn't necessarily surprise me. Automation is a bit more difficult or less accurate when you need to base it on digital images of license plates and correlate that data. I would be surprised to hear of people with ezpass having a lot of issues though. That part is simple to automate unless someone has a bad transponder (or doesn't have it properly mounted which I used to see all too often).


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 10, 2021)

No problems on I90 w/ a MA EZ Pass from Cleveland to Boston last week


----------



## JimG. (Jun 11, 2021)

I've had ezpass since 1993 and have never had a billing issue.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 11, 2021)

So I was on vail resorts page to see what news they had listed and there was a WOKE letter from Rob Katz where he even apologizes.  After I read it, I had mixed feelings.  While the sport we love does not fall in line with racial percentages in this country, does that mean that it has to be?  I do not think there are any racial barriers to skiing or snowboarding  There are many sports where it is lopsided like basketball, football and there other sports that are like skiing such as tennis and hockey.  It seems we want to make everything fit a mold and that seems to be what he is trying to do in this letter.









						Letter from Vail Resorts CEO: We Are Part of the Problem | Vail Resorts Corporate
					





					news.vailresorts.com


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 11, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I was on vail resorts page to see what news they had listed and there was a WOKE letter from Rob Katz where he even apologizes.  After I read it, I had mixed feelings.  While the sport we love does not fall in line with racial percentages in this country, does that mean that it has to be?  I do not think there are any racial barriers to skiing or snowboarding  There are many sports where it is lopsided like basketball, football and there other sports that are like skiing such as tennis and hockey.  It seems we want to make everything fit a mold and that seems to be what he is trying to do in this letter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The corporate like Vail is at fault not us people who use the hills in my opinion


----------



## Edd (Jun 11, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I was on vail resorts page to see what news they had listed and there was a WOKE letter from Rob Katz where he even apologizes.  After I read it, I had mixed feelings.  While the sport we love does not fall in line with racial percentages in this country, does that mean that it has to be?  I do not think there are any racial barriers to skiing or snowboarding  There are many sports where it is lopsided like basketball, football and there other sports that are like skiing such as tennis and hockey.  It seems we want to make everything fit a mold and that seems to be what he is trying to do in this letter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s you spelling “Woke” in all caps that scares me to death. I may not sleep tonight. What’re we gonna do you guys?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I was on vail resorts page to see what news they had listed and there was a WOKE letter from Rob Katz where he even apologizes.  After I read it, I had mixed feelings.  While the sport we love does not fall in line with racial percentages in this country, does that mean that it has to be?  I do not think there are any racial barriers to skiing or snowboarding  There are many sports where it is lopsided like basketball, football and there other sports that are like skiing such as tennis and hockey.  It seems we want to make everything fit a mold and that seems to be what he is trying to do in this letter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're missing his point entirely about the systemic economic racism in this country and how it relates to the sport of skiing.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 11, 2021)

Tons...and I mean tons... of historically non-skiing nationalities are coming up.  I skied Mount Snow Thanksgiving 2017 or 2018 and it was empty but Long John was a shitshow in all it's glory with a....imma say it...a literal "Chinese Downhill".  Skiing is now huge in China.  In my instructing career when regarding adults I've taught more non-white adults in never-ever classes than whites.


----------



## thebigo (Jun 12, 2021)

While I am glad to see investment at the cat. Does anyone understand the point of lighter chairs?



> Wildcat: Application for construction, replacement of chairs only (not hangers) on
> TRM 34, Wildcat Express.
> Lance Rasmussen provided the board with a written outline of the steps that would be
> taken to insure the chair replacement would be suitable for this installation. He reviewed this
> ...


----------



## Edd (Jun 12, 2021)

thebigo said:


> While I am glad to see investment at the cat. Does anyone understand the point of lighter chairs?


Guessing power consumption? Like your quote points out though, wind.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 12, 2021)

Vail can save money in the long run by not being able to run even with the slightest breeze.


----------



## xlr8r (Jun 13, 2021)

thebigo said:


> While I am glad to see investment at the cat. Does anyone understand the point of lighter chairs?



I'm really confused by this.  The Wildcat Express has Doppelmayr EJ chairs.  New Doppelmayr lifts have essentially the same EJ chairs.  I don't see how new EJ chairs can be significantly lighter than old ones unless they are now made out of different materials.  I would expect the new chairs to have slatted backrests to help with the wind, this might save a couple pounds, but not much.  Maybe the remove the footrests as well to save some weight.  This whole thing seems ridiculous.  There are plenty of Doppelmayr lifts that have EJ chairs that are older than Wildcat Express still using their original chairs.  This is the first time hearing EJ chairs need to be replaced due to age.  Maybe they want to add chairs to the lift to boost capacity, but that was not brought up in the meeting.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 13, 2021)

So does this mean that chair will be down for wind more frequently?


----------



## PAabe (Jun 13, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Fast food workers starting at 14-16 in park city.


I may be late to this conversation, but the effective market-rate minimum wage in much of PA is also around 12 despite officially being 7.25.  There are McDonalds starting at like 14.  Vail pays 8 from what I understand so chalk any staffing issues in PA up to that


----------



## drjeff (Jun 23, 2021)

Just announced on their social media feeds that Attitash is delaying the start of their Summer ops of the Summit Triple and Flying Yankee due to delays in maintenance with no current estimated date of opening currently given..... 

Should we start a betting pool of if there will be any folks riding either of those lifts before ski season or not?  Based on how Vail has chosen to operate Attitash, I would likely bet the "not until ski season" option....


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2021)

Wildcat too


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Just announced on their social media feeds that Attitash is delaying the start of their Summer ops of the Summit Triple and Flying Yankee due to delays in maintenance with no current estimated date of opening currently given.....
> 
> Should we start a betting pool of if there will be any folks riding either of those lifts before ski season or not?  Based on how Vail has chosen to operate Attitash, I would likely bet the "not until ski season" option....



 The "delays in maintenance" are because the whole Lift Ops and most of the Lift Maintenance crew left after the giant SHIT SHOW of last season at Attitash

Truthfully I don't know that both will run next season.  Summer Ops is VERY light lift use


----------



## thebigo (Jun 23, 2021)

Feel free to call me an optimist but any chance they are being sold?


----------



## p_levert (Jun 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Feel free to call me an optimist but any chance they are being sold?


Has Vail ever sold a resort?  I don't think so.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Feel free to call me an optimist but any chance they are being sold?


We have a few locals  who have put together an offer for the Cat, BUT are not at all interested in Attitash


----------



## FBGM (Jun 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Just announced on their social media feeds that Attitash is delaying the start of their Summer ops of the Summit Triple and Flying Yankee due to delays in maintenance with no current estimated date of opening currently given.....
> 
> Should we start a betting pool of if there will be any folks riding either of those lifts before ski season or not?  Based on how Vail has chosen to operate Attitash, I would likely bet the "not until ski season" option....


What Mount Slow up to home slice? See lots of mid management positions open on the dark web of Vail Jobs. They do another cut or boot or did all the crust old timers just get sick of Vail and leave?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Has Vail ever sold a resort?  I don't think so.



A bit too early in the roll-up life stage, give it another 4 or 5 years.


----------



## thebigo (Jun 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> A bit too early in the roll-up life stage, give it another 4 or 5 years.


Have you ever actually skied wildcat?

Wildcat is the best ski mountain on the east coast, north conway is the best ski town on the east coast.

It is not possible for vail to be this stupid. The former NH Peaks properties will be sold well inside of five years.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Have you ever actually skied wildcat?



Never.  I wasnt speaking of Wildcat, just about, "Vail never selling" any resorts.  They will.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Have you ever actually skied wildcat?
> 
> Wildcat is the best ski mountain on the east coast, north conway is the best ski town on the east coast.
> 
> It is not possible for vail to be this stupid. The former NH Peaks properties will be sold well inside of five years.



Not to derail the thread but that first statement is extremely bold and the second statement is very subjective.  Wildcat can't touch VT, imo.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Not to derail the thread but that first statement is extremely bold and the second statement is very subjective.  Wildcat can't touch VT, imo.


Well vail Corp still sucks.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 26, 2021)

IMHO, Vail *may* do some pruning of Peak Resorts in the future.  But people, what makes you think that Vail is selling anything?  Big corporations hate competition, so Vail is much more likely to simply close a resort or two (Attitash?), rather than sell to a smart local operator who will provide competition.  So forget about sales, except for maybe the podunk MW places, which are just pimples on the meaty leg of the evil empire.

As far as Wildcat goes, there is zero chance that property will ever be sold or mothballed.  It's an iconic resort that has a distinct sex appeal for a conglomerate which is short on these types of properties.  And Wildcat is high elevation (for the East) so attractive for a globally warmed future.  And, of course, Wildcat would be a very desirable pickup for Alterra and Vail certainly doesn't want that.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 26, 2021)

Oh, I certainly wouldn't say never on either one. Neither Attitash or Wildcat threaten any of their other holdings, and just look at how little they care about them.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 26, 2021)

Remember that time asc owned all the big ones and sold them off one by one to stay afloat? I do and bet things go down the same way


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Not to derail the thread but that first statement is extremely bold and the second statement is very subjective.  Wildcat can't touch VT, imo.



Yes, I wasnt going to touch that, but since you did, it's pretty ridiculous to say a NH resort is "the best" mountain in the entire northeast, and having been to North Conway, I can definitively say it's not better than Stowe or Lake Placid for my money.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2021)

Depends on what you are into.  I agree that aesthetically Stowe and Lake Placid are "nicer" than North Conway.  However, North Conway is completely unpretentious. So, I can see why someone would prefer it.  Far more diverse clientele than Stowe which is completely overrun with the Skips and Margos of Fairfield County.  

And yes, VT is WAY better than Wildcat.  Please don't bother coming.


----------



## Edd (Jun 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Not to derail the thread but that first statement is extremely bold and the second statement is very subjective.  Wildcat can't touch VT, imo.


It is weird to me that they’re treating the Cat so shabbily, particularly with real estate in the area off the charts so the customer base seems solid. So what’s the problem? Just staffing? It’s hard to make sense of it from a distance.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 26, 2021)

As far as year round activity north Conway is super hard to beat. The hiking and mtb riding in summer are wicked good


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## 2Planker (Jun 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> As far as year round activity north Conway is super hard to beat. The hiking and mtb riding in summer are wicked good


Don't forget the Outlet shopping & 25 decent places to eat
 Plus great fishing, canoeing/kayak.
 Lots of Golf.
ATV MegaPark in Goham
 Excellent Deer, Bear, & Bird hunting too


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Don't forget the Outlet shopping & 25 decent places to eat
> Plus great fishing, canoeing/kayak.
> Lots of Golf.
> ATV MegaPark in Goham
> Excellent Deer, Bear, & Bird hunting too



Yeah

And more.  You can take a train up Mt Washington along with two other scenic train rides.  There's one great amusement park for kids right there in the valley and another an hour away.  There's 1300 acre Conway lake for boating right there.  

Stowe for sure has the higher end hotels, restaurants and breweries, but in terms of four season things to do?  The Mt Washington Valley is unmatched in the Northeast.  

Really strange how Vail is basically mothballing their operations in the Valley.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 26, 2021)

I agree, I really don't think the North Conway area has an equal in the Northeast, all variables considered.

Drove by Attitash on a detour coming back from the North Country a couple days ago and it was sad to see how dead it was.


----------



## thebigo (Jun 26, 2021)

Glad the magic j I found in my boot bag before an appointment with richelson this week elicited so much banter. Still sorting the house of ganja haul from closing weekend at sr. 

The 25 restaurants are awesome. The coolest part of the mwv is the east snowfields in June, there is nothing else like it in the east.


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## thebigo (Jun 26, 2021)

You can still walk into the door or parka and buy patrol a beer. 

I have lived here my entire life, we lost portsmouth, I really hope we do not lose north conway.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You can still walk into the door or parka and buy patrol a beer.
> 
> I have lived here my entire life, we lost portsmouth, I really hope we do not lose north conway.


Gorham is the answer to that IMO


----------



## Geoff (Jun 28, 2021)

I haven’t been on this message board in years.   I sold the Killington condo a month ago after 28 years and bought one at Beaver Creek.   I clicked on the $49 deposit for an Epic Pass a month ago.  I’m not planning to be there until January 3 after the holiday mayhem ends so I’m looking at New England options to get some days and get my legs going in November/December.  

Dr Jeff…. How busy is Mt Snow midweek? With COVID-19 and all the telecommuting, Killington was really busy last year.  The midweek days were all like a Friday where the parking lots were pretty full.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 28, 2021)

thebigo said:


> You can still walk into the door or parka and buy patrol a beer.


and we do Thank You for that


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jun 28, 2021)

So I ran in to someone that skis Wildcat and Attitash regularly.  He and his wife belong to a ski club that has a house up there.  I was talking about how things seem to have been this season and he pointed out that much of the issues were due to lack of resources and changes in management.  He was hopeful this coming season will be different.  I still think there may be issues finding resources.  Likewise, I hope the way Wildcat and Attitash are managed will change as well.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I haven’t been on this message board in years.   I sold the Killington condo a month ago after 28 years and bought one at Beaver Creek.   I clicked on the $49 deposit for an Epic Pass a month ago.  I’m not planning to be there until January 3 after the holiday mayhem ends so I’m looking at New England options to get some days and get my legs going in November/December.
> 
> Dr Jeff…. How busy is Mt Snow midweek? With COVID-19 and all the telecommuting, Killington was really busy last year.  The midweek days were all like a Friday where the parking lots were pretty full.



The Beav seems like an odd choice for a longtime Kmart skier, as I would expect something along the lines of JH or Bozeman.  Just wondering, what was your decision making process?  I'm guessing airplane flights has something to do with it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I ran in to someone that skis Wildcat and Attitash regularly.  He and his wife belong to a ski club that has a house up there.  I was talking about how things seem to have been this season and he pointed out that much of the issues were due to lack of resources and changes in management.  He was hopeful this coming season will be different.  I still think there may be issues finding resources.  Likewise, I hope the way Wildcat and Attitash are managed will change as well.



Hopefully so.  I'm taking the year off from Cat.  Just didn't feel right giving Vail my money again after last year.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 28, 2021)

Big Patrol turnover at the Cat.  BW and Shawnee hired 5 over the phone, no questions asked.

Heard that Attitash is really scrambling just to get a summer crew in place. Thus the delayed start.
Their winter ops are already loosing veteran full timer seasonal staff -  SAD


----------



## Geoff (Jun 28, 2021)

p_levert said:


> The Beav seems like an odd choice for a longtime Kmart skier, as I would expect something along the lines of JH or Bozeman.  Just wondering, what was your decision making process?  I'm guessing airplane flights has something to do with it.


Fiancée’s daughter has lived in Vail for 15 years.   The thought was sell Killington and buy at Vail but we’re priced out.  Avon walkable to the town lift is a lot cheaper than Vail miles from the lift on the free bus loop.  I know tons of Killington people at Beaver Creek.  Two couples I know are across the street.   The flights help.  Boston-Denver has tons of nonstop service and good prices.  The van with the Epic Pass discount is cheap and convenient.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I haven’t been on this message board in years.   I sold the Killington condo a month ago after 28 years and bought one at Beaver Creek.   I clicked on the $49 deposit for an Epic Pass a month ago.  I’m not planning to be there until January 3 after the holiday mayhem ends so I’m looking at New England options to get some days and get my legs going in November/December.
> 
> Dr Jeff…. How busy is Mt Snow midweek? With COVID-19 and all the telecommuting, Killington was really busy last year.  The midweek days were all like a Friday where the parking lots were pretty full.


Congrats buying out West!

Most years, unless it's a powder day, Mount Snow isn't too crowded midweek.  Last year obviously was more crowded, and who knows how that will translate this season based on folks potential WFH status or not? Some Fridays get somewhat crowded by midweek standards especially in the main base area lifts, however once you get out of the main base area, the lines tend to be quite light midweek.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Fiancée’s daughter has lived in Vail for 15 years.   The thought was sell Killington and buy at Vail but we’re priced out.  Avon walkable to the town lift is a lot cheaper than Vail miles from the lift on the free bus loop.  I know tons of Killington people at Beaver Creek.  Two couples I know are across the street.   The flights help.  Boston-Denver has tons of nonstop service and good prices.  The van with the Epic Pass discount is cheap and convenient.


Ok, that all makes sense.  So you start your day on the Riverfront Express Gondola, is that it?  That's kinda cool if you can completely avoid shuttle buses, which can be a real time waster.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 28, 2021)

2 nice things I've noticed about Beaver Creek...

1. Bumps bumps and more bumps.
2. If you happen to get a power day, there will be substantially less people skiing it than at some other places (unless things have changed).


----------



## snoseek (Jun 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully so.  I'm taking the year off from Cat.  Just didn't feel right giving Vail my money again after last year.


Man, I'm not gonna lie I may go with the same cannon/epic veteran this year. I know it was shit last year but I kinda like the close areas on that pass and am looking for a big tour out west. If I do I'm sorry and promise not to give them a dime in the bar or shop. As a midweek guy it's hard to pass.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Man, I'm not gonna lie I may go with the same cannon/epic veteran this year. I know it was shit last year but I kinda like the close areas on that pass and am looking for a big tour out west. If I do I'm sorry and promise not to give them a dime in the bar or shop. As a midweek guy it's hard to pass.



Haha.  If I were a midweek skier, I'd probably hold my nose and do the same.  

I went Gunstock for the close substitute and booked what will be my 3 and 6 year olds into Sunday seasonal programs.  3 year old goes first, so I have an hour and a half with the 6 year old, then it flips, so I have the same with the 3 year old.   Have lunch and depending on the development of the 3 year old either ski as a family or split for the day.  I have no idea what to expect out of the 3 year old, so Gunstock being the closet to home makes sense.

Indy Pass for Saturday to take the six year old other places or ski solo with friends.  Use it for February school vacation week vacation to Saddleback again hopefully.  Or maybe a Jay family trip with water park.

If I see improvement from Vail, maybe I go back the following year or switch to Cannon plus Indy if they still are running their mountains like crap.  

Almost went Cannon + Indy this year, but didn't want to commit to the longer commute each weekend to Cannon until I know what I'm working with with the three year old.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 30, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Ok, that all makes sense.  So you start your day on the Riverfront Express Gondola, is that it?  That's kinda cool if you can completely avoid shuttle buses, which can be a real time waster.


Yep.  Walk up the railroad tracks to the Rocky Mountain Taco trailer, take a left to the Westin.  ~10 minutes.  I’m thinking I’ll buy a cup of coffee and boot up there as my routine.   I can also grab the free bus loop shuttle in front of the condo so a couple hundred feet of walking on pavement in ski boots.  One set of Killington friends across the street have a handicap tag.  He had a hip replacement some years ago.  They get free parking.  

This is partly a generational transfer to my fiancée’s daughter.  She wasn’t ever going to be able to afford Vail housing.  Even Minturn is now unaffordable. Avon is cheaper and way better walk score than anything at Vail.  City Market is a 5 minute walk.  She has the fancy parking structure pass that reserves a spot 7 days per week so the 10 minute drive up I-70 to Vail from a heated garage stall under the condo is a pretty convenient way to get to work.  

Anyways, I plan to be there - half time from January to mid-March.  I need to get a dozen New England days in before New Years to have some ski legs.  I’m thinking mostly Okemo midweek staying with various friends at Killington.  Mount Snow is 3 hours and 15 from here so I’m thinking I’d hit that some on my way to Killington to get Okemo days.   Thus the Dr Jeff question.  Sunapee would also be an option but I’m on the wrong side of Boston so Providence-146 is easier rolling at 6am.   I suppose I could hit Sunapee at noon after Boston traffic subsides.  I haven’t been to Crotched since I was a little kid but that might be worth an afternoon on my way north.   I might hit Stowe midwinter if it’s good.  I had college passes there back in the dark ages.


----------



## p_levert (Jun 30, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Yep.  Walk up the railroad tracks to the Rocky Mountain Taco trailer, take a left to the Westin.  ~10 minutes.  I’m thinking I’ll buy a cup of coffee and boot up there as my routine.   I can also grab the free bus loop shuttle in front of the condo so a couple hundred feet of walking on pavement in ski boots.  One set of Killington friends across the street have a handicap tag.  He had a hip replacement some years ago.  They get free parking.
> 
> This is partly a generational transfer to my fiancée’s daughter.  She wasn’t ever going to be able to afford Vail housing.  Even Minturn is now unaffordable. Avon is cheaper and way better walk score than anything at Vail.  City Market is a 5 minute walk.  She has the fancy parking structure pass that reserves a spot 7 days per week so the 10 minute drive up I-70 to Vail from a heated garage stall under the condo is a pretty convenient way to get to work.
> 
> Anyways, I plan to be there - half time from January to mid-March.  I need to get a dozen New England days in before New Years to have some ski legs.  I’m thinking mostly Okemo midweek staying with various friends at Killington.  Mount Snow is 3 hours and 15 from here so I’m thinking I’d hit that some on my way to Killington to get Okemo days.   Thus the Dr Jeff question.  Sunapee would also be an option but I’m on the wrong side of Boston so Providence-146 is easier rolling at 6am.   I suppose I could hit Sunapee at noon after Boston traffic subsides.  I haven’t been to Crotched since I was a little kid but that might be worth an afternoon on my way north.   I might hit Stowe midwinter if it’s good.  I had college passes there back in the dark ages.


Dang, you talked me into it.  Before yesterday, I had zero interest in skiing the Beav (too expensive, Vailish vibe).  But if you stay in Avon with the peons, you can save money and still have lift access to the mountain.  Plus, Avon is on the low elevation side, only 7.4k, which is a plus for me.  So maybe I try the Beav one of these years.


----------



## kingslug (Jun 30, 2021)

And if you want moguls..ski Birds of prey a few times and call it a day.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 1, 2021)

p_levert said:


> Dang, you talked me into it.  Before yesterday, I had zero interest in skiing the Beav (too expensive, Vailish vibe).  But if you stay in Avon with the peons, you can save money and still have lift access to the mountain.  Plus, Avon is on the low elevation side, only 7.4k, which is a plus for me.  So maybe I try the Beav one of these years.



We have skied Beaver Creek several times per season over the past 5 years and It is a cool place to ski.  Heck three floors of escalators to get to the base - that alone s interesting.  Cookies at three!  Varied terrain.  Nice Aspen Glades.  Good bumps off Grouse Mountain and off the lift for Birds of Prey.  Most other bump runs are short.


jaytrem said:


> 2 nice things I've noticed about Beaver Creek...
> 
> 1. Bumps bumps and more bumps.
> 2. If you happen to get a power day, there will be substantially less people skiing it than at some other places (unless things have changed).



I would not think of Beaver Creek for bumps.  Don't get me wrong, they do have decent and some very good bump runs but 70% of Beaver Creek is greens and blues.  It definitely a stuffy place - lots of Bogner wear.  Walking around the village is cool!


----------



## Geoff (Jul 2, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I would not think of Beaver Creek for bumps.  Don't get me wrong, they do have decent and some very good bump runs but 70% of Beaver Creek is greens and blues.  It definitely a stuffy place - lots of Bogner wear.  Walking around the village is cool!


Beaver Creek claims 39% of the resort is designated advanced to expert.  Killington claims 40% expert and has less skiable acres.  It’s like Deer Valley or Snowmass where the Bogner people completely ignore trees and ungroomed terrain. The last time an orthopedic surgeon was in a knee, he told me to stay out of the bumps.  My New England ice bumps days are behind me.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 2, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Beaver Creek claims 39% of the resort is designated advanced to expert.  Killington claims 40% expert and has less skiable acres.  It’s like Deer Valley or Snowmass where the Bogner people completely ignore trees and ungroomed terrain. The last time an orthopedic surgeon was in a knee, he told me to stay out of the bumps.  My New England ice bumps days are behind me.


It does not ski like 38%.  looking at the trail map it does not look it either.  Wikipedia has 38 and On the Snow has 32%.  In all seriousness, the amount of acreage that is advanced or expert is bigger than most NE resorts.


----------



## p_levert (Jul 2, 2021)

What does the Beav sound like?  Specifically, what languages do you hear?  I'm guessing that the clientele comes from all over the world.  I'm certainly not opposed to overseas visitors in general, but I do find that resorts become very impersonal once you reach a certain non-American threshold.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 2, 2021)

I had a great time at the bev. Bird of prey was great as was grouse mountain area. Just skied those and then had our free cookies!


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I had a great time at the bev. Bird of prey was great as was grouse mountain area. Just skied those and then had our free cookies!


I ski there on my first west vacation of 4 days ski vacation 3 at Vail 1at BC
I liked it in 2008 I don't remember to much else though


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I had a great time at the bev. Bird of prey was great as was grouse mountain area. Just skied those and then had our free cookies!



That is the core area for advanced skiing.  There are some other spots that have short runs but are not worth the fare.  Every where else is rather bland.  The Aspen glades are cool though! Bachelor Gulch and Arrowhead are kind of fun to tool around for a bit with narrow runs.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Jul 9, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Remember that time asc owned all the big ones and sold them off one by one to stay afloat? I do and bet things go down the same way


Different interest rate environment.  Low rates = easy money = easier for soso + zombie companies to stay above water.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> *I don't remember to much else though*



Can you tell us a bit more about why?


----------



## Tonyr (Jul 10, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Beaver Creek claims 39% of the resort is designated advanced to expert.  Killington claims 40% expert and has less skiable acres.  It’s like Deer Valley or Snowmass where the Bogner people completely ignore trees and ungroomed terrain. The last time an orthopedic surgeon was in a knee, he told me to stay out of the bumps.  My New England ice bumps days are behind me.


Congratulations on the new condo! I love skiing BC, it's my personal favorite of the I-70 resorts. The terrain is really good especially if you venture off into the unmarked trees which you can do all over the mountain. I absolutely love the tree skiing there and you are correct that people completely ignore the trees, untouched snow can be found days after a storm. I also think the on map terrain is very underrated as well, once you figure out how to avoid the areas where you need to do some skating you'll be all set!

As far as crowds go, I've never seen BC very crowded. 10 minutes is all I've ever waited to get on a lift and I've skied there over Christmas, New Years, and President's week. Killington is substantial more crowded over those times so is Vail and Breckenridge for that matter. Most days you'll be able to get right on the lift.  In any event, if the snow is good out there in December I wouldn't let that hold you back from going during the holidays, it will be far from a zoo on the mountain although it is hard to get dinner reservations during that time.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 12, 2021)

For those who don't know, I am moving West for next season to live a...let's call it...a "second childhood" and instruct full-time for a few years to take a break from it all.  In talking to numerous mountains, Vail's move to $15 minimum wage is incredible disruptive.  Every resort that has quoted me pay has said "this number will go up" with some resorts throwing the word "significantly" in there.  

I'll be interested to see what ticket prices are next year if they stay at Covid-level highs.  And of course all the other revenue streams.  

Exciting times for sure.  Vail might honestly have a play here if they can suck up all the lifties and cooks in the resort towns enticing them with wages higher than the competition.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 13, 2021)

ss20 said:


> For those who don't know, I am moving West for next season to live a...let's call it...a "second childhood" and instruct full-time for a few years to take a break from it all.  In talking to numerous mountains, Vail's move to $15 minimum wage is incredible disruptive.  Every resort that has quoted me pay has said "this number will go up" with some resorts throwing the word "significantly" in there.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what ticket prices are next, baely enough  year if they stay at Covid-level highs.  And of course all the other revenue streams.
> 
> Exciting times for sure.  Vail might honestly have a play here if they can suck up all the lifties and cooks in the resort towns enticing them with wages higher than the competition.


I donno......  Maybe out west is different but here, there are way more seasonal employees leaving Vail than joining.
    The Cat & Tash are both gonna have the same issues as last year - barely enough staff to cover one resort, let alone two....

On top of that, the current housing market has reduced the # of seasonal rental properties, and the costs are also up significantly.


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## Geoff (Jul 13, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I donno......  Maybe out west is different but here, there are way more seasonal employees leaving Vail than joining.
> The Cat & Tash are both gonna have the same issues as last year - barely enough staff to cover one resort, let alone two....
> 
> On top of that, the current housing market has reduced the # of seasonal rental properties, and the costs are also up significantly.


My fiancee's daughter works in Vail village.   The housing problem and worker shortage is way worse than anywhere in the Northeast.


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## 2Planker (Jul 13, 2021)

Geoff said:


> My fiancee's daughter works in Vail village.   The housing problem and worker shortage is way worse than anywhere in the Northeast.


Ummmmm   If Vail is "Half Staffed" then that's way better than what we're dealing with here.

 Last season  was either make snow at The Cat OR Tash. Not enough snomakers to cover both places on the same night.
 Same for Lifties. Many days the Cat should have run the triple but their answer was "No Lifties available" even on Sat/Sun and Holiday weeks - CRAZY.
(Attitash just doesn't need as many lifties anymore, since they can't fix/overhaul the triple. Their biggest shortages were in Food/Beverage, and hotel staff.)

Don't even get me started w/ the Patrol #'s.  For the upcoming 21/22 season,  just don't get injured, otherwise you may be waiting quite a while for that toboggan to show up.  The Cat used to have 20-25 patrollers on a weekend/holiday.  Now it's 10 if you're lucky.   Sometimes, there isn't even anyone stationed up top ready to respond when a call comes in. That never used to happen in the Jim Bilotta days. Now it's more common than not.

BW, Loon and Cannon are all filling many positions now w/  10-15% bump for new hires.
No word at all or plans announced yet from Vail...
They'll probably start to think about it in October, when all the qualified folks have already committed elsewhere.

Next season will really show who's made the commitment to come back strong, and who's just gonna "wing it"


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## gittist (Jul 14, 2021)

It may have already been voiced in the previous 120 pages (even by me, I have CRS) but I wonder if the seasonal employees made more $$ by staying home and collecting unemployment than going to work?


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## Smellytele (Jul 14, 2021)

gittist said:


> It may have already been voiced in the previous 120 pages (even by me, I have CRS) but I wonder if the seasonal employees made more $$ by staying home and collecting unemployment than going to work?


They made more money by working for non-vail ski areas is the real issue.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 14, 2021)

gittist said:


> It may have already been voiced in the previous 120 pages (even by me, I have CRS) but I wonder if the seasonal employees made more $$ by staying home and collecting unemployment than going to work?


Yup as did many in other industries as well.  Although Vail didn't do themselves any favors


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

FYI - An official offer to buy the Cat has been made by a couple locals.
Reply requested in writing by Aug 15


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 14, 2021)

They aren't selling the Cat...


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## Smellytele (Jul 14, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They aren't selling the Cat...


Probably won’t even respond


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## p_levert (Jul 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Probably won’t even respond


OTOH, an offer to purchase Attitash would be warmly received.


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Probably won’t even respond


You couldn't be more wrong....
They have already confirmed the interest to sell, that's why the offer was made.


 As for Attitash..  Way too many problems....


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## thebigo (Jul 14, 2021)

Was the offer six figures or seven figures? Does the party making the offer have any experience running a ski area?


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Was the offer six figures or seven figures? Does the party making the offer have any experience running a ski area?


No $$$ talk.
 As for experience - Absolutely, 30-35 years each.  Spread across ME, NH & VT


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## thebigo (Jul 14, 2021)

Not hard to connect the dots. If I recollect you have posted that you are friends with LBO and he is one of the few people that meet the description.


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Not hard to connect the dots. If I recollect you have posted that you are friends with LBO and he is one of the few people that meet the description.


True, Good guess, But No. His hands are pretty full right now.
Plus Les is 72. These guys are in their late 50's


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## ss20 (Jul 14, 2021)

I'm skeptical.  This would be like Walmart selling an underperforming store to a few local guys to turn it into a bowling alley.  Not saying it _won't or can't_ happen but it certainly _doesn't_ happen often or at all.  

Vail also isn't the obvious top choice in the Northeast over Alterra like they are in other regions.  It's a pretty even split.  I'd think they want every resort they can get; profit be damned.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2021)

Wildcat moves the needle on very few pass sales.  I'd be one of those very few, but not while Vail owns it. You're talking about a ski area that averages around 85k visits per season over the past ten or so.   Losing Cat as part of the Vail portfolio probably does very little to Epics pass sale business.


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I'm skeptical.  This would be like Walmart selling an underperforming store to a few local guys to turn it into a bowling alley.  Not saying it _won't or can't_ happen but it certainly _doesn't_ happen often or at all.
> 
> Vail also isn't the obvious top choice in the Northeast over Alterra like they are in other regions.  It's a pretty even split.  I'd think they want every resort they can get; profit be damned.


These guys have climbed the ladder in the industry, and held almost every type of position at a ski resort, both on & off snow.
Couldn't be more different from what they have now.   Dedicated hands on mgmt. from people who live/ski there
every day.


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## snoseek (Jul 14, 2021)

Sell off Wildcat and focus efforts on running Attitash better. I could see it. 

Wildcat as a standalone resort would be rad. I feel like at some point they could team up with another mountain (Cannon please) to increase pass sales.


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## thebigo (Jul 14, 2021)

Cat with a long season on the WMSP would make for a compelling product. Crannmore/bw/Cat from the valley? Not sure I can think of a better combo in the east.


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## ss20 (Jul 14, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Cat with a long season on the WMSP would make for a compelling product. Crannmore/bw/Cat from the valley? Not sure I can think of a better combo in the east.



Damn.  You really do love NH don't you lol.  My dream would be living halfway between Killington/Pico and Sugarbush on Ikon base with an MRG midweek pass and I'm set for roughly the same price.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Cat with a long season on the WMSP would make for a compelling product. Crannmore/bw/Cat from the valley? Not sure I can think of a better combo in the east.



I'd rather see Cat join Indy.  Cat Pass with Indy add on is a more compelling product than WMSP to me due to greater geographic diversity and more options.  

If  the snow is bad at one WMSP area, it's likely going to be bad at all of them.  Indy gives you the option Magic for Southern VT storms and Bolton/Jay for Northern VT storms and sometimes those tracks don't do much for the Whites.   Plus having Saddleback available, which IMO is the best overall ski mountain / experience in the East now with the High Speed Rangeley chair.  

If I lived less than 3 hours from Saddleback, securing a seasonal rental or vacation home there would without question be my goal.  It's just a bit too far of a drive for me to want to commit to each weekend.


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## 2Planker (Jul 15, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Cat with a long season on the WMSP would make for a compelling product. Crannmore/bw/Cat from the valley? Not sure I can think of a better combo in the east.


Black Mt in Jackson was also trying to promote interest in the MWV  for joining the WMSP


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2021)

Why kinda resources does this group have?  Personally, i wouldn't think Cat is worth more than $7-8M and given their financial track record I wouldn't commit to something like that unless I had at least $20M in reserve.


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## p_levert (Jul 15, 2021)

I still can't see it.  Sure, Wildcat doesn't make a bunch of money and it's a tiny pimple in the Vail empire.  But, at the same time, it is an iconic resort with a high base elevation and good natural snow (rare commodities in the East, particularly NH).  If Vail lets it go, I expect it to become part of Ikon Pass, one way or another.  The big dogs tend to compete real hard against each other, and I am sure they don't want to see Wildcat in Alterra hands, directly or indirectly.


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## Whitey (Jul 15, 2021)

For Vail, it's all about the "package" of mountains that VR can offer Epic Pass holders in a geographic area.  So they are looking at their package of northeast mountains and if there are enough and they are spread around the northeast.     I could see them unloading 1 of the 2 mountains that they have in the Conway area as I doubt that would really impact pass sales.    As long as they have something to offer pass holders in that area of NH they would probably be OK with just one area there.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 15, 2021)

other than the triple at Attitash what other problems are there (not withstanding the previous season operations)?

If I was in the market for a ski area , why not two?


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## 2Planker (Jul 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Why kinda resources does this group have?  Personally, i wouldn't think Cat is worth more than $7-8M and given their financial track record I wouldn't commit to something like that unless I had at least $20M in reserve.


They have both the resources and the financial backing.
That's about all that will be said until a reply has been received.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 15, 2021)

2Planker said:


> They have both the resources and the financial backing.
> That's about all that will be said until a reply has been received.




We shall wait and see!  I would be surprised if they sell.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 15, 2021)

Me too but maybe they look at selling the cat as a way to fund a new summit lift at Attitash.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> other than the triple at Attitash what other problems are there (not withstanding the previous season operations)?
> 
> If I was in the market for a ski area , why not two?


The challenge with Attitash is the overhead to run it.  Improvement wise it really only needs the triple replaced and to cut some additional glades as they have minimal.  And use the snowmaking firepower they have to it's full capacity. 

But between the two base areas and the quantity of lifts to run at full capacity midweek is tough for the amount of skier visits they get.


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## machski (Jul 15, 2021)

Perhaps Vail sells Cat to position to buy Jay.  That resort much more fits the Vail profile than the Cat with ZERO base lodging/village.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 15, 2021)

Vail sucks less now lol

Buy peaks pass 20 % less than last season

Dreaming of crisp sunrises and fresh snow.   
Pass prices have been reduced 20%. Get your pass for the 2021-21 season now.
#huntermountain #sunrise. #tbt


			https://bit.ly/3jWLMxk


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## urungus (Jul 16, 2021)

Vail poised to ban pot
					

VAIL — The temporary ban on retail marijuana in Vail could be permanent in a matter of weeks.Just two weeks after the Vail Town Council passed yet another extension




					www.vaildaily.com


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## abc (Jul 16, 2021)

urungus said:


> Vail poised to ban pot
> 
> 
> VAIL — The temporary ban on retail marijuana in Vail could be permanent in a matter of weeks.Just two weeks after the Vail Town Council passed yet another extension
> ...


Does anyone tried ski/ride while under the influence of marijuana? How's it like? 

(I mean, this is a ski forum after all. The only relevance of marijuana is when it's combined with skiing!)


----------



## snoseek (Jul 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Does anyone tried ski/ride while under the influence of marijuana? How's it like?
> 
> (I mean, this is a ski forum after all. The only relevance of marijuana is when it's combined with skiing!)


Every single day I ski and it's fine. I dont get super high...just a few pokes throughout the day. If you dont often smoke then it could be a disaster lol.


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## Smellytele (Jul 16, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Every single day I ski and it's fine. I dont get super high...just a few pokes throughout the day. If you dont often smoke then it could be a disaster lol.


I like it when it is the only thing you have to think about. Multitasking is not great but it does help when you only have to focus on one thing / skiing, darts, etc.


----------



## abc (Jul 16, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Every single day I ski and* it's fine.*


Well, "fine" isn't quite the answer I was expecting. Does it enhance the experience?  Significantly? Considerably? Can't tell the difference?


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## snoseek (Jul 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Well, "fine" isn't quite the answer I was expecting. Does it enhance the experience?  Significantly? Considerably? Can't tell the difference?


For skiing it's like having a cup of coffee in the morning. Overall it helps me focus as stated above but doesn't add all THAT much.

It also slows me down a bit and get more creative the the path down


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## Smellytele (Jul 16, 2021)

snoseek said:


> For skiing it's like having a cup of coffee in the morning. Overall it helps me focus as stated above but doesn't add all THAT much.
> 
> It also slows me down a bit and get more creative the the path down


Helps control my over active adhd thinking.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 16, 2021)

I take a few pulls in the morning to take the edge off.  Similar to having a beer or 2 at lunch.  Skiing trashed is not fun regardless if substances


----------



## snoseek (Jul 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I take a few pulls in the morning to take the edge off.  Similar to having a beer or 2 at lunch.  Skiing trashed is not fun regardless if substances


2 points of heavy beer would mess me up alot more than a couple puffs. I do like the 1130 parking lot beer but slow it down quite a bit after. It probably brings nothing to the table for me but beer is good


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## ScottySkis (Jul 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Does anyone tried ski/ride while under the influence of marijuana? How's it like?
> 
> (I mean, this is a ski forum after all. The only relevance of marijuana is when it's combined with skiing!)


Yes like over 60% of snow boarders and skiers due it all tim e


----------



## Edd (Jul 16, 2021)

From the article:

_“People who weren’t for it had some pretty compelling reasons why (marijuana) shouldn’t be allowed,” Wadey said. Arguments against allowing retail sales in town included a desire to keep Vail ‘classy’ and the belief that the town might lose more customers than it would gain if retail sales were allowed. Wadey said other comments encouraged town officials to not simply follow the example set by other resort towns.”_

I‘d like to hear the compelling arguments, because they’re not included in the paragraph. I really see no point in banning it. Waste of energy.


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## Smellytele (Jul 16, 2021)

So is selling it band but actually having some and smoking it okay?


----------



## slatham (Jul 16, 2021)

Skiing is a high I don't often cross with other forms. Especially if skiing fast and/or technical steeps/trees, which I try to do every time I ski.


----------



## Quietman (Jul 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Me too but maybe they look at selling the cat as a way to fund a new summit lift at Attitash.


Looks like Wildcat is replacing the rope on the quad and doing snowmaking upgrades.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 16, 2021)

Wonder what the "major" snowmaking upgrades are.  The most major upgrade they could do is hire the actual staff needed to operate what they have


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## thebigo (Jul 16, 2021)

I have no idea what they are doing but the ability to hit lynx top to bottom, rather than in sections, would constitute a major upgrade.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 16, 2021)

They said they are going to be able to do that??


----------



## thebigo (Jul 17, 2021)

Also fixing wilfreds:


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 17, 2021)

abc said:


> Does anyone tried ski/ride while under the influence of marijuana? How's it like?
> 
> (I mean, this is a ski forum after all. The only relevance of marijuana is when it's combined with skiing!)







In my 20's but not anymore .

Total consciousness without the deathbed part LOL .


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jul 22, 2021)

lol. i smoke pot while i do everything, including skiing. smoking pot isnt inebriating for people who smoke pot regularly.


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## gittist (Jul 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. i smoke pot while i do everything, including skiing. smoking pot isnt inebriating for people who smoke pot regularly.


Then why bother? Or do you just smoke more....


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jul 22, 2021)

i like the taste, the ritual, the feeling it causes. but when you smoke daily for 20+ years, you aren't a giggling stumbling red-eyed caricature from a 50s propaganda film.

my intake probably increased some  in the past year due to the intersection of work from home + quitting cigarettes, but I've smoked about an ounce a month since college. 

i get high, it's just not inebriating in a way that effects my ability to make decisions or be physically dextrous.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Yes like *over 60% of snow boarders and skiers due it all tim e*



I'll take the UNDER on that line.

I'll take the OVER on that line if we replace "snow boarders and skiers" with "of Scotty's friend circle".


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## giantfan (Jul 23, 2021)

Stowe is going to change the opening plan: "the resort will push back the quad’s opening until 8 a.m. every day. At the same time, the resort will open the gondola a half hour early, so both lifts will now fire up at 8 a.m."









						Stowe aims for peak play
					

Stowe Mountain Resort was largely shuttered last summer during the pandemic, but the resort is ramping up for its usual slate of outdoor activities, from leisurely ascents up Vermont’s highest




					www.vtcng.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 23, 2021)

> “Obviously, there is a small group of diehards that shows up for that early opening,” Wise said, adding he feels for them. “But this decision is based on serving the vast majority of what people want, which is access to freshly-groomed terrain when they arrive at the resort.”



What people want is to get as many turns in as possible before waiting at the insufferable lines that both the Quad and Gondola have on peak days.

Why not open them both at 7:30?   That is a vail decisions $$$


----------



## drjeff (Jul 23, 2021)

giantfan said:


> Stowe is going to change the opening plan: "the resort will push back the quad’s opening until 8 a.m. every day. At the same time, the resort will open the gondola a half hour early, so both lifts will now fire up at 8 a.m."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Guessing that there will be a press release from Mount Snow prior to the start of the season annoncing that they're doing away with their long standing Saturday AM 7:30 lift access for passholders for the Bluebird from January through Mid March then...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 23, 2021)

Roundtop did away with it last year and went a step farther and didn't open the lifts until 9 AM on the weekends.  Patrol would do us all a solid and get things cleared early most weekends and were opening closer to 8:30...   They better go back to a normal operating schedule this year.  Although the fact they didn't open anything but paintball for summer ops is not a strong signal that will be happening.

Even under Peaks Roundtop had first tracks at 7:30 for passholders Friday-Sunday. 

obviously with Vail most everyone is a passholder now, so maybe that is why they are tossing these "perks"


----------



## thebigo (Jul 23, 2021)

For as long as I can remember patrol at the cat would give Leo the thumbs up and he would load the quad regardless of the time. Last year they counted down the seconds until 9:00 before anyone was allowed to load. Just one more part of the experience that vail has killed.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> For as long as I can remember patrol at the cat would give Leo the thumbs up and he would load the quad regardless of the time. Last year they counted down the seconds until 9:00 before anyone was allowed to load. Just one more part of the experience that vail has killed.


Yup

Vail really needs to give more of the decision making back to local management as they know their clientele best.  Alterra appears to do more of that.  Too bad Cat wasn't bought by them.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> For as long as I can remember patrol at the cat would give Leo the thumbs up and he would load the quad regardless of the time. Last year they counted down the seconds until 9:00 before anyone was allowed to load. Just one more part of the experience that vail has killed.


Correct, as long as trail check was done, and the groomers were off snow. We were allowed to give the OK to load the quad. 
That was the way it was for many, many years.

 The Cat is a very easy AM trail check, and can be done w/ 6-8 patrollers. Definitely not the case for a place like SR, where you need about 20 people as it's so spread out. End of the day trail check is way worse.... Cat 15mins / SR 30-45 mins


----------



## mgalluzz (Jul 29, 2021)

2Planker said:


> FYI - An official offer to buy the Cat has been made by a couple locals.
> Reply requested in writing by Aug 15


Any news from Broomfield?


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 29, 2021)

I heard there was some minor back & forth, but nothing official to speak of.
Still almost 3 weeks left


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## slatham (Jul 29, 2021)

This is what has always worried me about the McDonaldsization of Vail mountains, that everything would become standard and consistent across all areas and the unique, idiosyncracies that we all love would be gone. Thus far my worry is being realized, and *it would seem* that this is not happening at Alterra resorts.

And it certainly highlights one of the core strengths of the Indies. For those who care.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

slatham said:


> This is what has always worried me about the McDonaldsization of Vail mountains, that everything would become standard and consistent across all areas and the unique, idiosyncracies that we all love would be gone. Thus far my worry is being realized, and *it would seem* that this is not happening at Alterra resorts.
> 
> And _it certainly highlights one of the core strengths of the Indies. *For those who care*_.


I'm not as concerned as many here. Economy has a way of self-correcting itself. 

If enough people prefers the uniqueness and idiosyncrasy, they will stay away from the Vail/McDonold of skiing/food. That would make the non-Vail/non-McDonald flourish. So those who care, just vote with your wallet and your feet. The industry will sort itself out.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 29, 2021)

They took away my fucking 7;30 chair.....@#$%^&*(&^%$$#@#$%!!!!!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 29, 2021)

yeah that is Fucking Bullshit.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 29, 2021)




----------



## nhskier1969 (Jul 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Every single day I ski and it's fine. I dont get super high...just a few pokes throughout the day. If you dont often smoke then it could be a disaster lol.





abc said:


> Well, "fine" isn't quite the answer I was expecting. Does it enhance the experience?  Significantly? Considerably? Can't tell the difference?


I think 100%  take a couple hits of a good sativa and you will really enjoy the scenery around you.  Feels awesome making gs turns down a groomer


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Jul 29, 2021)

kingslug said:


> View attachment 51801


LOL !!!


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 29, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm not as concerned as many here. Economy has a way of self-correcting itself.
> 
> If enough people prefers the uniqueness and idiosyncrasy, they will stay away from the Vail/McDonold of skiing/food. That would make the non-Vail/non-McDonald flourish. So those who care, just vote with your wallet and your feet. The industry will sort itself out.


Have you ever seen how many people love McDonalds? So much that in many small, rural areas that the cool and funky locally owned restaurants can’t get enough business to ever make it.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i like the taste, the ritual, the feeling it causes. but when you smoke daily for 20+ years, you aren't a giggling stumbling red-eyed caricature from a 50s propaganda film.
> 
> my intake probably increased some  in the past year due to the intersection of work from home + quitting cigarettes, but I've smoked about an ounce a month since college.
> 
> i get high, it's just not inebriating in a way that effects my ability to make decisions or be physically dextrous.


Having high quality and very loved, organically grown weed is key to not being a giggling, stumbling red eyed caricature from a 50’s propaganda film as well. The kind of stuff that gets you lifted but does it gently and keeps you clear headed.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Have you ever seen how many people love McDonalds? So much that in many small, rural areas that the cool and funky locally owned restaurants can’t get enough business to ever make it.


People love McDonalds? No, I don't know about it. But if they truly do, I don't see anything wrong with that. 

"Cool and funky restaurants", if there's not enough people "love" it, they wouldn't succeed with or without a McDonald nearby. Without McDonalds, you'll just have "locally own" fast food joint instead of "cool and funky" restaurants. Is it better for the consumers to have dried fried chicken instead of burned burger?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Have you ever seen how many people love McDonalds? So much that in many small, rural areas that the cool and funky locally owned restaurants can’t get enough business to ever make it.


I've lived in areas where Mcdonalds and other chains co exist with local restaurants my whole life.  A better comparison to what Vail is trying to do would be what Wal Mart did and Amazon is currently doing to the retail shopping industry.  Don't really see many small independent grocery stores any more, at least where i've been.   Not to mention all the other brick and motor stores that have closed or suffered as a result of amazon.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 29, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I've lived in areas where Mcdonalds and other chains co exist with local restaurants my whole life.  A better comparison to what Vail is trying to do would be what Wal Mart did and Amazon is currently doing to the retail shopping industry.  Don't really see many small independent grocery stores any more, at least where i've been.   Not to mention all the other brick and motor stores that have closed or suffered as a result of amazon.


Not to disagree but my small town of under 5k we do have a Indy grocery store that is always busy. Next town over has a large chain and 20 minutes away there are multiple.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Have you ever seen how many people love McDonalds? So much that in many small, rural areas that the cool and funky locally owned restaurants can’t get enough business to ever make it.



lol that was my thought exactly.  I waited 15 minutes in the drive thru at 11pm at night last Saturday for a quick bite at McD's.  Fast food is making a killing.  If they can keep things staffed I see no reason the trend wouldn't continue.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> lol that was my thought exactly.  I waited 15 minutes in the drive thru at 11pm at night last Saturday for a quick bite at McD's.  Fast food is making a killing.  If they can keep things staffed I see no reason the trend wouldn't continue.


Hey, I ain’t gonna lie, I sometimes McLove that shit!

The drive thru lines since Covid have been absurd.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 30, 2021)

abc said:


> People love McDonalds? No, I don't know about it. But if they truly do, I don't see anything wrong with that.
> 
> "Cool and funky restaurants", if there's not enough people "love" it, they wouldn't succeed with or without a McDonald nearby. Without McDonalds, you'll just have "locally own" fast food joint instead of "cool and funky" restaurants. Is it better for the consumers to have dried fried chicken instead of burned burger?


Huh? This doesn’t make much sense to me


----------



## skiur (Jul 30, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Having high quality and very loved, organically grown weed is key to not being a giggling, stumbling red eyed caricature from a 50’s propaganda film as well. The kind of stuff that gets you lifted but does it gently and keeps you clear headed.



Organic has no effect whatsoever.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 30, 2021)

skiur said:


> Organic has no effect whatsoever.


I guess I was get at the overall effects or the experience with that but whatever


----------



## snoseek (Jul 30, 2021)

I just assume smoking stuff that someone grew with love and natural hippy organic stuff and trimmed and cured with love and adoration. Not sure if organic matters but collectively all the best nugs I've got were from some dude geeking out in his backyard. What a time to be alive!


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jul 30, 2021)

Looks like Vail has upped wages hopefully enough to staff NH…..









						Vail Resorts’ Largest 2021 Winter Season Investment: A Boost in Employee Wages | Vail Resorts Corporate
					





					news.vailresorts.com


----------



## snoseek (Jul 30, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Looks like Vail has upped wages hopefully enough to staff NH…..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as hitting the actual 15 minimum nh was out of that so while they plan on increasing it's probably not enough to find line level employees. Honestly hope I'm wrong.

My dish guys are making more...we are hiring line cooks at a rate with minimal experience that I honestly never thought I would see in the next decade or even 2.literally everyone I work with is making substantially more money in the last year and we still cant fill positions. This is where the hospitality industry is at and it's what they're going up against. Good luck Vail lol


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

abc said:


> People love McDonalds?



I love McDonalds about 3 or 4 times per year.


----------



## chuckstah (Aug 1, 2021)

My 95 year old father loves McDonald's. He ate there most every day for the last 30  years until he very recently stopped driving. He still requests it  every time I visit. McDonald's, the key to longevity


----------



## ss20 (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I love McDonalds about 3 or 4 times per year.



A McDouble for $2.50....I'm good for one or two of those a month.  Splurge on the quarter pounder with cheese maybe 5 times a year.

Something something moderation, right?  Doc says its ok when it comes to beer, why not fast food?


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 1, 2021)

No one gets out alive! You might as well enjoy yourself a little.

that judgy thing kind of sucks anyways.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 1, 2021)

I lean towards rotation of McD, BK and Wendys.  It's not very often.  The most common instance is if it's a hasty departure on a Friday night, followed by no dinner yet, and with other restaurants jamming on the Friday crowd, hello McD's and get back on the road.  That happens about once a month, maybe two, and you know who looks forward to it the most?  

The dog.

Loves them french fries.  Tied only with the drive in teller milk bone treat.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 1, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I've lived in areas where Mcdonalds and other chains co exist with local restaurants my whole life.  A better comparison to what Vail is trying to do would be what Wal Mart did and Amazon is currently doing to the retail shopping industry.  Don't really see many small independent grocery stores any more, at least where i've been.   Not to mention all the other brick and motor stores that have closed or suffered as a result of amazon.



see: downtown rutland.

my mcdonalds intake is very high in ski season. lots of rushed sunday drive thru meals on the way home


----------



## snoseek (Aug 1, 2021)

McDonald's biggest mistake was losing the fried hand pies those things were like crack. Egg mcmuffin double toasted is the only thing I'll get these days and aside from the weird cheese on them they are pretty good. The coffee is as good if not better than dunks as well.


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 1, 2021)

snoseek said:


> McDonald's biggest mistake was losing the fried hand pies those things were like crack. Egg mcmuffin double toasted is the only thing I'll get these days and aside from the weird cheese on them they are pretty good. The coffee is as good if not better than dunks as well.


I like their coffee at McDonald's better than dd
I glad it's few miles from my apartment to McDonald's
I happy to have delicious high quality deli close to wheeer I lived for 2 years that delivers


----------



## p_levert (Aug 1, 2021)

Macdonald's coffee is a great deal and the quality is good.  So I take advantage of that on a regular basis.

Egg McMuffin is a great grab and go breakfast.  Cheap/fast/more_or_less_healthy, what's not to like?

In the evening, I lean strongly to Wendy's.  Actually, if you're driving home after skiing, I strongly suggest no food stops.  Just eat a few granola bars and wait till you get home.  Half the time, fast food joints are slow and screwed up.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

I don't love nor hate McDonald. I eat there when I'm in a hurry and it's the most convenient place to grab and go. 

The fact there's almost always a McDonald in every cross road makes it the de facto option.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

Since the pandemic, drive through line had gotten quite long. Sometimes it's faster parking and going inside (and get to use the bathroom too).


----------



## snoseek (Aug 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Since the pandemic, drive through line had gotten quite long. Sometimes it's faster parking and going inside (and get to use the bathroom too).


Probably because they cant staff the place properly. 

Dunks lines have gotten ridiculous around here spilling into roadways. Not worth it imo.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Probably because they cant staff the place properly.
> 
> Dunks lines have gotten ridiculous around here spilling into roadways. Not worth it imo.


Or that people aren’t going to sit down place to eat?

The lines in some of the fast food joints were often longer than I‘ve ever seen even customers inside. Places that are usually totally empty are now having a long drive through line!


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 1, 2021)

I still see plenty of fast food restaurants with closed lobbies.  Drive through only due to low staffing


----------



## Edd (Aug 1, 2021)

A Qdoba near here had to close for indoor service due to staffing. Online orders only and they bring it to your car. A Whole Foods opened recently about 1000 feet from them so I wonder if they sucked the labor dry in that area.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

Edd said:


> A Whole Foods opened recently about 1000 feet from them so I wonder if they sucked the labor dry in that area.


Oh, that would do it for sure!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2021)

Chick-fil-A pretty much destroys all the other fast food chains while we're on the topic.  Spicy chicken sandwich with waffle fries or the Southwest salad are my go to options.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Chick-fil-A pretty much destroys all the other fast food chains while we're on the topic.  Spicy chicken sandwich with waffle fries or the Southwest salad are my go to options.



....that'll be $8.50...


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> ....that'll be $8.50...


But not on Sundays


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Chick-fil-A pretty much destroys all the other fast food chains while we're on the topic.  Spicy chicken sandwich with waffle fries or the Southwest salad are my go to options.


Out here Chick-fil-A and In And Out are among the hottest fast food places. The lines at in n out are massive.


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2021)

Speaking of fast food joints, I used to LOVE Kentucky Fried Chicken. I used to go out of my way to hit one during my travel. But they've gone steadily downhill in quality. For the past 5 or so years, I couldn't find a single place that didn't dump a ton of salt on the chicken. 

In the meantime, other joints had finally caught up on how to cook chicken (or rather, how NOT TO OVERCOOK chicken). I don't do KFC any more.


----------



## Whitey (Aug 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Speaking of fast food joints, I used to LOVE Kentucky Fried Chicken. I used to go out of my way to hit one during my travel. But they've gone steadily downhill in quality. For the past 5 or so years, I couldn't find a single place that didn't dump a ton of salt on the chicken.
> 
> In the meantime, other joints had finally caught up on how to cook chicken (or rather, how NOT TO OVERCOOK chicken). I don't do KFC any more.


I'm in the same boat, but it's been a lot longer than 5 yrs since I had KFC.   Used to love it as a kid/teenager.    But as an adult I always found that after eating KFC about a 1/2 hr later I'd be drinking water like man at an oasis in the desert.    Just sooo much salt in it that it literally dehydrated me.    And then came the stories of people finding fried chicken heads in their buckets of KFC and I had to nope the hell away from KFC.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 2, 2021)

Whitey said:


> But as an adult I always found that after eating KFC about a 1/2 hr later I'd be drinking water like man at an oasis in the desert.    Just sooo much salt in it that it literally dehydrated me.


Happens to me with any chain restaurant, fast food or sit down. I will get a coffee on occasion but have not had any fast food in the better part of a decade. Just not worth it. Would rather run into the grocery store than fast food line, you can even buy low sugar pre packaged coffee at the grocery store now. I go through a mountain of those vermont meat sticks during the season.


----------



## kingslug (Aug 2, 2021)

Went to in out in Utah..don't know what the hype is all about...


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I'm in the same boat, but it's been a lot longer than 5 yrs since I had KFC.   Used to love it as a kid/teenager.    But as an adult I always found that after eating KFC about a 1/2 hr later I'd be drinking water like man at an oasis in the desert.    Just sooo much salt in it that it literally dehydrated me.    And then came the stories of people finding fried chicken heads in their buckets of KFC and I had to nope the hell away from KFC.


The KFC recipe probably has a lot of salt mixed in already. I like the taste enough to put up with the thirst afterward. (kind of like putting up with hangover after drinking a bit too much?). 

But lately, they changed the recipe itself (or the way they cook the chicken) that it just taste like eating raw salt tablet! 

I mean, I eat "less than healthy" food once in a while: fatty pork belly, any kind of fried food etc. As long as it's not a regular diet routine, my body can handle it while I enjoy the taste, as a treat once in a while. 

But the KFC chicken now taste just awful. The excess salt was just too overwhelming, there's no other taste but that of salt tablet. For a while, I thought it was just one particular place or another (there's one in Springfield Mass that's consistently too salty way back!). But now, after trying one after another across the country, they all taste awful like that. I'm finally accepted the fact the KFC I knew is no more. (there're also other restaurants that changed like that, I stayed away for the same reason)


----------



## snoseek (Aug 2, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Went to in out in Utah..don't know what the hype is all about...


Its decent quality for fast food and cheap as hell. Compare it against McDonald's and it is miles better imo.


----------



## gittist (Aug 2, 2021)

Does Vail own KFC, Chik-fil-a, McDonalds, or a pot farm? Just wondering...


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 2, 2021)

In & Out Burger in CA was definitely WAY BETTER than McD's, BK or KFC

 Will not patronize Chik Fil A


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> In & Out Burger in CA was definitely WAY BETTER than McD's, BK or KFC
> 
> Will not patronize Chik Fil A



but the fundamentalist religious bigotry makes the chicken so much better!


----------



## Dickc (Aug 2, 2021)

Got my Epic pass in the mail Saturday.  Surprised me a bit as I really did not expect them to mail it until they get the final payment in September.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 2, 2021)

Bojangles > Chick fil a > Royal Farms > Popeyes > KFC


----------



## snoseek (Aug 2, 2021)

Grocery store fried chicken if you are right there when it gets fried is the best thing going. King Soopers is on point and under 10 bucks for an eight piece.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 2, 2021)

McDonalds is good once in a while, and cheap, everything tastes pretty good, but they are so slow anymore. Better off stopping at like Sheetz or Wawa if you want it quick.

You can probably get faster service at your local diner or cafe than half of the McD's anymore.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 2, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Bojangles > Chick fil a > Royal Farms > Popeyes > KFC



Bojangles is one of my (many) favorite parts of going down south.


----------



## LonghornSkier (Aug 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Bojangles is one of my (many) favorite parts of going down south.


Zaxby’s has entered the chat. My favorite fast food chicken.
Cookout is another great Carolinas-based fast food spot.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 3, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Grocery store fried chicken if you are right there when it gets fried is the best thing going. King Soopers is on point and under 10 bucks for an eight piece.



My wife and I would go to King Soopers and get the fried chicken,  Put it in the refrigerator over night and then throw some in our pack and go hiking - it is good for sure!


----------



## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> My wife and I would go to King Soopers and get the fried chicken,  Put it in the refrigerator over night and then throw some in our pack and go hiking - it is good for sure!


Thawing meat in room temperature for hours is the surest way to encourage bacteria growth within the meat.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Thawing meat in room temperature for hours is the surest way to encourage bacteria growth within the meat.



cold packs


----------



## p_levert (Aug 3, 2021)

If I may interrupt this hamburger, chicken and pot discussion, Vail is raising prices after Labor Day: https://www.epicpass.com

I guess this means that the 20% reduction goes away, or at least it will be scaled back.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 3, 2021)

p_levert said:


> If I may interrupt this hamburger, chicken and pot discussion, Vail is raising prices after Labor Day: https://www.epicpass.com
> 
> I guess this means that the 20% reduction goes away, or at least it will be scaled back.


That happen every year around Labor day, definitely  by "Indigenous Peoples Day" formerly known as Columbus Day.
​


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 3, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That happen every year around Labor day, definitely  by "Indigenous Peoples Day" formerly known as Columbus Day.
> ​


that should have been the Cleveland baseball teams name  - "The Cleveland Indigenous"


----------



## gittist (Aug 4, 2021)

p_levert said:


> If I may interrupt this hamburger, chicken and pot discussion, Vail is raising prices after Labor Day: https://www.epicpass.com
> 
> I guess this means that the 20% reduction goes away, or at least it will be scaled back.




Glad to see a comment that actually has something to do with Vail. Maybe the website owner can create a food forum?


----------



## kingslug (Aug 4, 2021)

Food=good


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 4, 2021)

no one should be complaining about threads staying completely on topic in august on a ski forum with ~20 active members.


----------



## gittist (Aug 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no one should be complaining about threads staying completely on topic in august on a ski forum with ~20 active members.




I'd rather see no comments at all than to have to weed through all 'off topic' comments to find something actually relevant to  Vail or ski/snowboarding.


----------



## abc (Aug 4, 2021)

gittist said:


> I'd rather see no comments at all than to have to weed through all 'off topic' comments to find something actually relevant to  Vail or ski/snowboarding.


That maybe your preference (mine too). But that's not the preference of the forum regulars. 

Browse a bit further down on the list of topics. You'll find majority of them are multi-year long running threads that goes all over the place! 

Once in the middle of the ski season, I asked a question about the condition of a particular mountain, got no response. I asked again, I was told to go to one of the long running threads, which at that particular point was busy arguing some obscured aspect of management! 

I learned not to bother starting a new thread with relevant title any more. Just ask my questions at random thread that's most active at the moment. Because anyone who could answer my question would be browsing those few active threads.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 4, 2021)

The best approach would probably be an active members only chat subforum. Then a separate subforum for specific questions by less active members. Thing is though, nobody is making any money on this or most forums. Honestly, we are lucky it still exists. Dont like the banter? Go start your own forum. Some members have tried over the years but have never been successful in replicating the AZ traffic.


----------



## abc (Aug 4, 2021)

thebigo said:


> a separate subforum for specific questions by less active member


Is that an oxymoron or what?


----------



## JimG. (Aug 4, 2021)

thebigo said:


> The best approach would probably be an active members only chat subforum. Then a separate subforum for specific questions by less active members. Thing is though, nobody is making any money on this or most forums. Honestly, we are lucky it still exists. Dont like the banter? Go start your own forum. Some members have tried over the years but have never been successful in replicating the AZ traffic.


This.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 4, 2021)

How much is a burger at Vail these days?


----------



## kingslug (Aug 4, 2021)

16 bucks  with chips


----------



## p_levert (Aug 4, 2021)

p_levert said:


> If I may interrupt this hamburger, chicken and pot discussion, Vail is raising prices after Labor Day: https://www.epicpass.com
> 
> I guess this means that the 20% reduction goes away, or at least it will be scaled back.


Although this discussion has wandered all over the place, it has stayed interesting and friendly.  So I am totally cool with the burgers and pot stuff.  Sooner or later, we will loop back to Vail as they are always in the news.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 4, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 16 bucks  with chips


For real? That’s not as bad as I thought it might be.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 4, 2021)

i havent skied a vail resort in a long minute, but i checked stowe's cliff house summer menu and a burger is $20 and i assume it comes with fries and i also presume that is sit-down with a server.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 4, 2021)

Wall bar at kirkwood was 18 bucks for a burger like 5 years ago with fresh chips. 

12 oz sirloin at night was something like 42 I think. That's not prime or dry aged just plain old IBP packer beef. I felt bad and over weighed those fuckers and cleaned them up real nice but still a shit deal.


----------



## machski (Aug 4, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent skied a vail resort in a long minute, but i checked stowe's cliff house summer menu and a burger is $20 and i assume it comes with fries and i also presume that is sit-down with a server.


Cliff House  believe is white table cloth, sit down serviced.  One of the more high end on hill dining establishments in the East.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 4, 2021)

So now we're talking about food...at Vail-owned resorts...compromise at it's finest, people!!!

Paid for by the AZ Centrist Party.  Supporting skiing talk and summer banter living in harmony.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no one should be complaining about threads staying completely on topic in august on a ski forum with ~20 active members.



Heck it happens during ski season!  Forums just have a tendency to shoot off on a beaten path.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 5, 2021)

yeah ebb and flow of conversation. 

We can't constantly hate on vail, that's too negative


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent skied a vail resort in a long minute, but i checked stowe's cliff house summer menu and a burger is $20 and i assume it comes with fries and i also presume that is sit-down with a server.



Actually at Larkspur slope side at Vail

The "Larksburger"

$26.75


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Heck it happens during ski season!  Forums just have a tendency to shoot off on a beaten path.


It is just normal human nature. Actual real life conversations often go off topic quite easily. So naturally it is easy for forum topics to evolve and go off-topic as well at times until someone brings things back on topic.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah ebb and flow of conversation.
> 
> We can't constantly hate on vail, that's too negative



Oh I got plenty left in the Vail hate tank


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

They're gonna be pulling that discount pretty soon I think. I'm torn on reupping my pass...was originally a firm no but the southern nh areas are so close for lazy days when I dont want to drive 2 hours. What they did with wildcat and attitash last years was tragic though and I would be a total hypocrite giving them a dime. Either way I'll hedge with a cannon pass. I just need something for an easy drive sometimes


----------



## kingslug (Aug 5, 2021)

Larkspur Restaurant - Vail, CO on OpenTable
					

Larkspur Restaurant, Casual Elegant Contemporary American cuisine. Read reviews and book now.




					www.opentable.com
				




I'll up you a grilled cheese sandwich for 25.75...


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 5, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> For real? That’s not as bad as I thought it might be.


Cat was $12ish for a very good burger
Attitash was more and it SUCKED, COLD, small, and served on a very stale bun


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> What they did with wildcat and attitash last years was tragic though and I would be a total hypocrite giving them a dime.


Hypocrite is too strong a word for it. Self interest always takes precedent. 

I'm renewing my Epic pass. That's a definite YES. I have a credit from the previous season that's carried over to the next. That, combined with the 20% discount, means I can get the Epic Local for under $500!

The only hesitation is me trying to decide if I want to upgrade to a full Epic.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Hypocrite is too strong a word for it. Self interest always takes precedent.
> 
> I'm renewing my Epic pass. That's a definite YES. I have a credit from the previous season that's carried over to the next. That, combined with the 20% discount, means I can get the Epic Local for under $500!
> 
> The only hesitation is me trying to decide if I want to upgrade to a full Epic.


It's hard to pass a sub 500 dollar full pass. I'm also a midweek skier so that makes it even harder. If I was a weekend guy I would never consider it at any price


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

yea i mean thats the real make or break on an epic pass imo. if you can get away with a lot of mid-week days then the obvious glaring issues don't effect you. 

for me, I'm a total weekend warrior who gets maybe 2 ~10 day extended trips a season. the epic northeastern weekend scene would just make me mad and probably give me a stroke. and the ikon/indy destination resorts work perfect for me for the longer trips, so epic doesn't really win me over for their destinations. would be nice to go back to whistler one day or check out telluride and crested butte for the first time, but I'm more than content with big sky, revelstoke, etc as my destination options without having to join the vail club


----------



## thebigo (Aug 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It's hard to pass a sub 500 dollar full pass. I'm also a midweek skier so that makes it even harder. If I was a weekend guy I would never consider it at any price


Gunny midweek and ragged full are both sub $500.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Gunny midweek and ragged full are both sub $500.


I regret not jumping on the ragged pass early. I had that my first season back and it was a good time. Gunstock is a bit pricey for what it is but I actually really like the mtn. I should consider that one. It is equal distant as sunnapee for me and crotched is closer but I consider gunstock a fun hill and well run.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Gunny midweek and ragged full are both sub $500.



but over $750 combined for two locations


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Hypocrite is too strong a word for it. Self interest always takes precedent.
> 
> I'm renewing my Epic pass. That's a definite YES. I have a credit from the previous season that's carried over to the next. That, combined with the 20% discount, means I can get the Epic Local for under $500!
> 
> The only hesitation is me trying to decide if I want to upgrade to a full Epic.



we jumped all over the Epic Veteran Pass for $447 and dependents get that price too!


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> would be nice to go back to whistler one day or check out telluride and crested butte for the first time


Whistler is one of the reason I'm vacillating between the Epic Local and the full Epic. The Local only gets 10 days on Whistler/Vail/BC combine, whilst the full pass is unlimited on them. I'm not too drawn to Vail (parking expense), and BC while nice, isn't going to take up 10 days. 

So, if the Canadian border is fully open, it makes sense to get the full Epic to get more days for Whistler. Not to mention adding Kicking Horse and the other Canadian Rockies resorts.  

But if the border is not open, it's $200 extra for just Telluride, which I may or may not go. (Crested Butte is already covered in the Epic Local).


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

i am a big fan of the RCR resorts, specifically kicking horse and fernie.

one thing about kicking horse tho, and this really truly isn't me trying to sound all hardcore and holier than thou, but it truly is an experts only mountain. there is very little to ski there if you arent interested in 4000 continuous vertical feet of steep challenging skiing, most starting in chutes and couloirs. 

fernie is a gem, and an all around sort of place with something for everyone, and a great town

kimberley has eastern vibes bc it doesn't go above tree line


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> one thing about kicking horse tho, and this really truly isn't me trying to sound all hardcore and holier than thou, but it truly is an experts only mountain.


Already been there once. Disagree on the "very little to ski if..." part. I'd say it's a mountain advanced skiers would totally enjoy, and a paradise for experts. Would love to go back.

But that hinges on the Canadian border fully open (no quarantine).


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 6, 2021)

abc said:


> Whistler is one of the reason I'm vacillating between the Epic Local and the full Epic. The Local only gets 10 days on Whistler/Vail/BC combine, whilst the full pass is unlimited on them. I'm not too drawn to Vail (parking expense), and BC while nice, isn't going to take up 10 days.
> 
> So, if the Canadian border is fully open, it makes sense to get the full Epic to get more days for Whistler. Not to mention adding Kicking Horse and the other Canadian Rockies resorts.
> 
> But if the border is not open, it's $200 extra for just Telluride, which I may or may not go. (Crested Butte is already covered in the Epic Local).


Fly in - you can do that now!


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 6, 2021)

abc said:


> Already been there once. Disagree on the "very little to ski if..." part. I'd say it's a mountain advanced skiers would totally enjoy, and a paradise for experts. Would love to go back.
> 
> But that hinges on the Canadian border fully open (no quarantine).



I agree!  I have been there only once and we were with some intermediates and they did enter Crystal Bowl.  There are some trails that go down the middle. They are very boring IMO but they can lap the lift there.  More fun to come in from the sides of the bowls  Outside of Crystal Bowl it is a different ball game and advanced to Experts only.


----------



## kingslug (Aug 9, 2021)

KH is another world compared to most places..and thankfully not crowded..yet.


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 9, 2021)

abc said:


> But that hinges on the Canadian border fully open (no quarantine).


As of today, the Canadian border is fully open (land and air) to fully vaccinated Americans.  The 'essential travel' and 'quarantine' requirements are gone.  You still need a negative 72-hour test but that's it.


----------



## abc (Aug 9, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Fly in - you can do that now!


I think the requirement is the same for both (unlike the US side).

I have another month to see if they stay the same course in the face of Delta variant. If the border open survive the latest outbreak, I'll buy into the potential of skiing Canada the coming season.


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 10, 2021)

Hope this works out best for us people who enjoy winter activities:
"""
NEWS: Vail Resorts to Replace Rob Katz with New CEO
Kirsten Lynch, the Company's chief marketing officer will replace Rob Katz as CEO of Vail Resorts on November 1st.  Rob Katz will become Executive Chairperson of their board of directors and will continue be remain fully active and engaged with key strategic decisions and priorities.

Press Release: https://investors.vailresorts.com/n...esorts-announces-ceo-and-executive-succession
""


----------



## thebigo (Aug 10, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Hope this works out best for us people who enjoy winter activities:
> """
> NEWS: Vail Resorts to Replace Rob Katz with New CEO
> Kirsten Lynch, the Company's chief marketing officer will replace Rob Katz as CEO of Vail Resorts on November 1st.  Rob Katz will become Executive Chairperson of their board of directors and will continue be remain fully active and engaged with key strategic decisions and priorities.
> ...


Thanks for posting scotty, I can only assume this to be good news but would defer to those with a better understanding of the industry.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 10, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Thanks for posting scotty, I can only assume this to be good news but would defer to those with a better understanding of the industry.


Here's VT Ski and Ride's take on it...









						Vail Resorts Names New CEO: What This Means – VT SKI + RIDE
					

If you thought Vail Resorts was a ski company, think again.  And the new CEO, Kristen Lynch is a strong




					vtskiandride.com


----------



## abc (Aug 10, 2021)

Don't see what would be different. 

Katz will "continue to be active". The marketing head will become the CEO. 

Me think? This is a move to appease the "gender quota". Nothing will change.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2021)

abc said:


> Don't see what would be different.
> 
> Katz will "continue to be active". The marketing head will become the CEO.
> 
> Me think? This is a move to appease the "gender quota". Nothing will change.



Not really.  This is a succession plan for the company.  If you know anyone who works high up in the Vail organization, they'll tell you that if not for the pandemic, Katz likely would be retired by now.   He agreed to stick around to help navigate these turbulent waters 

For 2021-22, probably little changes, but perhaps the following season, Katz will fully step away.

Time will tell


----------



## Geoff (Aug 11, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> How much is a burger at Vail these days?


Rocky Mountain Taco in the trailer across the street from the town lift at Beaver Creek is $2.50 per taco.  We prefer their storefront in Minturn with better selection and beer/wine but I walk right past the trailer in Avon.


----------



## njdiver85 (Aug 11, 2021)

So in a few weeks or so, all of us that put down $49 for the Epic Pass will be charged for the remaining balance.  Guess they'll wait until right after that to announce how much they are going to ream us to park at places like Mount Snow.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not really.  This is a succession plan for the company.  If you know anyone who works high up in the Vail organization, they'll tell you that *if not for the pandemic, Katz likely would be retired by now.   *He agreed to stick around to help navigate these turbulent waters



At 48.  Retired.  

CEOs of roll-up companies typically leave a few years before the implosion, because they know better than anyone when the detonator's timed to go off. 

My prophecy will come to pass.


----------



## Dickc (Aug 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> At 48.  Retired.
> 
> CEOs of roll-up companies typically leave a few years before the implosion, because they know better than anyone when the detonator's timed to go off.
> 
> My prophecy will come to pass.


Oh, like Jack Welch did?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 11, 2021)

i dont know about any impending implosions or whether you're right or wrong, but if i had a mountain of money why the fuck wouldnt i retire at 48 and chill the fuck out for the next 40 years


----------



## snoseek (Aug 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> At 48.  Retired.
> 
> CEOs of roll-up companies typically leave a few years before the implosion, because they know better than anyone when the detonator's timed to go off.
> 
> My prophecy will come to pass.


I'm with you on this. On paper this guy just built the hell out of a company since he took the reigns wat better time to step back. Maybe they know stuff we dont about the coming years.


----------



## Mum skier (Aug 11, 2021)

njdiver85 said:


> So in a few weeks or so, all of us that put down $49 for the Epic Pass will be charged for the remaining balance.  Guess they'll wait until right after that to announce how much they are going to ream us to park at places like Mount Snow.


That’s a worrying point. In theory they could charge for parking anywhere, not even just the premium resorts/lots.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 12, 2021)

you are most likely correct.

I worry about the little places like roundtop and the other "feeder hills" in their "portfolio".  These were all likely very profitable privately owned places before being gobbled up by corporations.  Who's going to want to buy a ski hill in south central PA when the dominos start falling...


----------



## FBGM (Aug 12, 2021)

We can only hope they crash and burn.

Also if you ski Mt Snow willingly you deserve to pay and park. Two dumb decisions are better then 1


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2021)

Very interesting news about Katz.  Seems odd.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 12, 2021)

He's a millionaire.  And he also sees the end is nigh as BG has stated... 

I'll be 45 in 7 months if I could retire or take a reduced roll and still make a lot of money I'd do it too.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont know about any impending implosions or whether you're right or wrong, but if i had a mountain of money why the fuck wouldnt i retire at 48 and chill the fuck out for the next 40 years



Sure, it could be that.   But I like my reasoning better.

#ConfirmationBias


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Oh, like Jack Welch did?



And many others. 

Run for the exists 2 to 5 years before the ugly arrives, and move onto something new while your stock (figuratively & literally) is still soaring high.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sure, it could be that.   But I like my reasoning better.
> 
> #ConfirmationBias


Could be both really, cashing out and enjoying an early millionaires retirement right before the shit hits the fan and the stock becomes worthless


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 12, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Could be both really, cashing out and enjoying an early millionaires retirement right before the shit hits the fan and the stock becomes worthless


All he needs to do is to  clean out the Corporate 401K and you'd have another "Fun with Dick & Jane"


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 12, 2021)

A basic google search says Katz is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $140M.  I'd have peaced out LONG before now.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 12, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> A basic google search says Katz is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $140M.  I'd have peaced out LONG before now.


Power is addictive and hard to surrender.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 12, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Power is addictive and hard to surrender.


Or the otherside of it, somepeople just have the drive to succeed, and even when the step away, they never really fully step away, as their mentality gets bored too quick, and they then find new ventures to set their sights on.

Many a very succesful person never really fully retires as much as they just keep their toes in the water as they look to find the balance between the drive that got them their success and their desire to attempt to relax a bit (which often if encouraged by their significant other more than by themselves....)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Very interesting news about Katz.  Seems odd.



Not that odd!  Just happened with the CEO of the company I work for.  Not uncommon for CEO's to take on the Chairman of the Board role only since they are often both.  The concept is to separate the two roles for audit purposes and to remove conflict of interest.  But as COB he drives the direction of the board and how it will influence the corporation.  I do not expect him to go anywhere any time soon.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> A basic google search says Katz is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $140M.  I'd have peaced out LONG before now.


Me too, but these people aren't wired like you or I.  I've met a few dozen CEOs of publicly traded healthcare companies, all millionaires, some billionaires, and they will work until the day they die.  For many it's all they care about.  The term "workaholic" is a real thing.  Whereas most here would prefer a day hiking, biking, swimming, or skiing, they generally seem most content when working.  I think it's kind of sad frankly, but then, I'm thinking of it from my perception.  I do sometimes wonder if any of them wake up one day and realize they're 65 years old & regret working 7 days a week through their youth, but then, that's how they got to a position where they have $476 million in the bank.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 12, 2021)

Some live to work - others work to live.


----------



## abc (Aug 12, 2021)

Seems most here never experienced the joy of having a job they love? Even fewer have a job that is their passion?

A CEO, any CEO, would love their role. Whether that's just pure power, or the passion for the goal they're pushing for as a leader. It's totally additive! Why else would Donald Trump use his own money to run for the presidency? He loves being the president so much that he's willing to pay to do it!

I'm lucky that I LOVE my work. OK, maybe not the job itself, which comes with a whole load of other bureaucratic hassles which distract from the work I love to do. But there're part of my work I enjoy MORE THAN POWDER!!!

Sure, I'd like to get more money. And I would change job to get paid as much as I can negotiate. But no, I wouldn't change career just to make more money! It's the work itself that I enjoy. Whilst my "work" has to do with ordering computers to do works I don't want to do manually (which has its share of frustration when the computer doesn't do what it's told  ). A CEO is just ordering other people around to do things he wants to do but can't do them all. 

When you have a job you enjoy, you don't retire to escape from it once you made "enough" money (never mind there's never "enough money" anyway). You only retire in order to do something else. That "something else" better be something you love more than what you've been doing so far.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 12, 2021)

When you think about it, Katz the person is worth probably 5 times what Attitash and Wildcat combined would sell for.   CEO compensation is totally whacked in modern society.  

I mean for sure, he deserves to be compensated VERY well for the empire he helped build, but what's better for skiers?  A financial package for Rob Katz that allows him to accumulate $140M in wealth or maybe something that allowed him to accumulate a poverty $50M and Vail actually directing resources where skiers would appreciate it such as a new chair at Attitash or actually attracting the staff needed to run the place.


I see similar in the healthcare industry.  I work for a publicly traded medical company with a market cap of $90B.  The greedy billionaire founders care far more about the stock price than the hospitals they serve.  The business gets throttled to meet quarterly projections and business gets backlogged to help the next quarter.  The hospitals get screwed because products they need are withheld.  This is reality with all of the major players in the business.   

Pretty fd up.  At least with Vail it's skiers getting screwed and not doctors and patients.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Me too, but these people aren't wired like you or I.  I've met a few dozen CEOs of publicly traded healthcare companies, all millionaires, some billionaires, and they will work until the day they die.  For many it's all they care about.  The term "workaholic" is a real thing.  Whereas most here would prefer a day hiking, biking, swimming, or skiing, they generally seem most content when working.  I think it's kind of sad frankly, but then, I'm thinking of it from my perception.  I do sometimes wonder if any of them wake up one day and realize they're 65 years old & regret working 7 days a week through their youth, but then, that's how they got to a position where they have $476 million in the bank.



Ehhhh....I can see it.  I've worked my fair share of 7-day, 70 hour weeks in the service industry.  It's addictive at the low-levels I'm sure it's addictive at the upper-levels too.  

As of now, I have no intentions on ever stopping work completely.  I'd love to semi-retire in my 40s or early 50s and have a 20 hour work week on my terms for the remainder of my days with good health.  I couldn't imagine not working indefinitely.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 13, 2021)

IMHO The chickens will come to roost for Vail Resorts, eventually. Just not sure how... through a mediocre product they've certainly helped other mountains by sending long time single mountain passholders elsewhere.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 13, 2021)

i really dont think they are going anywhere. they are walmart and people shop at Walmart to their home towns' detriment. the strong independent players who cater to a different market will survive, but its pretty silly in my opinion to really think vail mega resorts corp is on the verge of collapse or anything resembling such.


----------



## abc (Aug 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i really dont think they are going anywhere. they are walmart and people shop at Walmart to their home towns' detriment. the strong independent players who cater to a different market will survive, but its pretty silly in my opinion to really think vail mega resorts corp is on the verge of collapse or anything resembling such.


The megapass phenomena is only at the beginning! So it'll run for quite a while. 

But just look at where Sears ended up. Who's to say Walmart will last? 

If nothing else, climate change is going to change the industry just as much, if not more, than the Vail marketing.


----------



## Razor (Aug 13, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Ehhhh....I can see it.  I've worked my fair share of 7-day, 70 hour weeks in the service industry.  It's addictive at the low-levels I'm sure it's addictive at the upper-levels too.
> 
> As of now, I have no intentions on ever stopping work completely.  I'd love to semi-retire in my 40s or early 50s and have a 20 hour work week on my terms for the remainder of my days with good health.  I couldn't imagine not working indefinitely.



I was a high school teacher for many years until I retired.  I never worked in the summer by choice.  At a college reunion years ago I ran into an old buddy who owns one of the biggest construction companies in the USA.  I was telling him about the cross country camping trip we took that summer with our 2 young sons for 2 months.  He said that he'd give anything to be able to do that, but that he could never get away from work long enough.  We all make our choices of how we'll live our lives.


----------



## abc (Aug 13, 2021)

Razor said:


> He said that he'd give anything...


That "anything" doesn't include his business.  

Let's hope he enjoys it more than camping trip in the summer...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 13, 2021)

want to have some fun look up any publically traded company and see what some of the top salaries are

this is for Vail









						Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE:MTN) Stock Price & Quote Analysis  - Simply Wall St
					

Research Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) stock with daily updated analysis.




					simplywall.st


----------



## thebigo (Aug 13, 2021)

2Planker said:


> FYI - An official offer to buy the Cat has been made by a couple locals.
> Reply requested in writing by Aug 15


We have reached the deadline, any update?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *i really dont think they are going anywhere. *they are walmart and people shop at Walmart to their home towns' detriment. the strong independent players who cater to a different market will survive, but *its pretty silly in my opinion to really think vail mega resorts corp is on the verge of collapse *or anything resembling such.



Dont think of it as "collapse" or bankruptcy & they go away, Vail's demise will not be like that at all & the company will still survive.

Think of it more in terms of excess debt + running out of sources for ancillary revenue begins to pressure profitability & impact gross margins, which batters the stock price until a point at which large activist (probably hedge fund) institutional investors demand significant restructuring, lower costs, and forced asset sales likely in the form of selling off Vail properties to unlock value and recoup their money, either via direct sales (most likely) or IPO spinoff (IMO very unlikely in the ski industry, but more common in other industries).  When the roll-up unwinding process is all over, Vail will not be as large as it is today.  That's my prediction, but it will take some years.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 13, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Dont think of it as "collapse" or bankruptcy & they go away, Vail's demise will not be like that at all & the company will still survive.
> 
> Think of it more in terms of excess debt + running out of sources for ancillary revenue begins to pressure profitability & impact gross margins, which batters the stock price until a point at which large activist (probably hedge fund) institutional investors demand significant restructuring, lower costs, and forced asset sales likely in the form of selling off Vail properties to unlock value and recoup their money, either via direct sales (most likely) or IPO spinoff (IMO very unlikely in the ski industry, but more common in other industries).  When the roll-up unwinding process is all over, Vail will not be as large as it is today.  That's my prediction, but it will take some years.


So like asc-lite?


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 14, 2021)

I see Katz still running things.
Move looks good for the company image


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 14, 2021)

recent stock sales


Katz$322.8130,358Officer, Director262,5242021-06-14FilingKatz$321.8829,956Officer, Director292,8822021-06-14FilingKatz$320.6231,347Officer, Director322,8382021-06-14Filing


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 16, 2021)

What’s the latest on the Wildcat offer?


----------



## kingslug (Aug 16, 2021)

Vail Resorts announced Thursday, June 10, that the company’s CEO Rob Katz will donate $29.3 million from sold shares of Vail Resorts stock to charity....


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 16, 2021)

Is Attitash a charity? 

No, seriously, good on him.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 16, 2021)

yeah that's pretty cool.  now get back to work figuring out how to run your eastern holdings.  they operate differently than your destination resorts in the west.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 16, 2021)

The most activity in the Attitash area when my family and I drove by it this morning was the bridge replacement project on 302 in-between the Bear Peak and Main base areas..

North Conway was busy, and all weekend the Brettonwoods area/Mount Washington Hotel was busy, and noticeably short staffed.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The most activity in the Attitash area when my family and I drove by it this morning was the bridge replacement project on 302 in-between the Bear Peak and Main base areas..
> 
> North Conway was busy, and all weekend the Brettonwoods area/Mount Washington Hotel was busy, and noticeably short staffed.


Yup.  Mt Wash hotel is VERY short staffed this summer. They never filled all the slots they had originally, and now the college kids are all done for the summer.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah that's pretty cool.  now get back to work figuring out how to run your eastern holdings.  they operate differently than your destination resorts in the west.


I’m sure they put them all on an austerity budget last winter.  With Delta, if I were running the corporation, I’d be conservative this winter as well.  I’d want to carefully control labor, electricity, and diesel.  The last thing I’d want is for a bunch of little eastern ski areas to post big losses when their upside for operating profit is so low.   Whistler, Heavenly, Park City, and the I-70 resorts do gigantic business with really high yields.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 16, 2021)

these places were over run with people on Epic Passes.  Other than some of the operational hour cut backs my local hill here in PA was fine from a snowmaking perspective.  I suspect it'll be less busy as the normal 1 week a year skiers won't slum it at the local places so much as I think traveling at least within the continental US should be ok unless things really go south...  Lets hope for many many reasons that doesn't happen.


----------



## mgalluzz (Aug 17, 2021)

thebigo said:


> We have reached the deadline, any update?


Wondering the same thing.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 17, 2021)

I would think no news = no deal.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

or they're working through discovery and working out the terms of said deal


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2021)

If you ever want to feel like a number to Vail, give this a read.... 

https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011

One thing I did notice is how cheap the Epic Day Pass is this year.


----------



## Mum skier (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> If you ever want to feel like a number to Vail, give this a read....
> 
> https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011
> 
> One thing I did notice is how cheap the Epic Day Pass is this year.


I wonder what my “Guest Lifetime Value” is?
My objective for work today is to use that phrase during a meeting......


----------



## gittist (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> If you ever want to feel like a number to Vail, give this a read....
> 
> https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011



It's like buying a non-refundable ticket. They have your money and don't care whether you ever show up or not. I only skied 5 days last year and didn't do the local areas b/c of the COVID policies so they made money (not much but some) on me.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> I wonder what my “Guest Lifetime Value” is?
> My objective for work today is to use that phrase during a meeting......


Thats funny.... Love it.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 18, 2021)

mgalluzz said:


> Wondering the same thing.


I was away on Vac so I haven't seen or heard anything...
May see someone tonite at Madison Market's Cruise Night.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> If you ever want to feel like a number to Vail, give this a read....
> 
> https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011
> 
> One thing I did notice is how cheap the Epic Day Pass is this year.


Ouch

Are the yellow dots ski areas that are not name worthy?  Like in NH Wildcat, Attitash, Crotched, Sunapee.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> It's like buying a non-refundable ticket. They have your money and don't care whether you ever show up or not. I only skied 5 days last year and didn't do the local areas b/c of the COVID policies so they made money (not much but some) on me.


I'm not so sure that they don't care if you show up or not. It's a subscription based business model and having you subscribe *each year* is *really important* to Vail. If people buy a pass and at the end of the year they feel like they wasted money, a lot of them are not going to make that mistake again. Also, while much smaller in revenue, they do care about the money people spend at the resorts.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 18, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Ouch
> 
> Are the yellow dots ski areas that are not name worthy?  Like in NH Wildcat, Attitash, Crotched, Sunapee.
> 
> View attachment 51820


Hunter didn't even make the cut


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Ouch
> 
> Are the yellow dots ski areas that are not name worthy?  Like in NH Wildcat, Attitash, Crotched, Sunapee.
> 
> View attachment 51820


I believe that they were just trying to illustrate "world-class" destination ski resorts...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I believe that they were just trying to illustrate "world-class" destination ski resorts...



again ouch!


----------



## cdskier (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I believe that they were just trying to illustrate "world-class" destination ski resorts...


Well in that case, even the northeast resorts of Stowe, Okemo, and Mt Snow shouldn't be called out on that graphic as none of them are considered "destination resorts" by Vail. On another slide pertaining to acquisitions, they refer to all of those northeast resorts as "regional resorts".



I also love the term of "irreplaceable" used at various points in the slide deck to refer to their resort network.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 18, 2021)

OK so I could almost see calling Okemo and Mt. Snow regional despite them being destination places for folks outside of New England, but calling Stowe "regional" is downright insulting as one who skis the east.

Smh at how they labelled pretty much every one of their western resorts and then left the east as a bunch of yellow dots... but then proceeded to list all of the cities around here.  Vail cares about the markets, not the skiing


----------



## mbedle (Aug 18, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> again ouch!


Come on,


cdskier said:


> Well in that case, even the northeast resorts of Stowe, Okemo, and Mt Snow shouldn't be called out on that graphic as none of them are considered "destination resorts" by Vail. On another slide pertaining to acquisitions, they refer to all of those northeast resorts as "regional resorts".
> 
> View attachment 51821
> 
> I also love the term of "irreplaceable" used at various points in the slide deck to refer to their resort network.


Good point and that my friend is call perception... A unbalanced slide serves no good...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 18, 2021)

LTV (lifetime value) is a common metric for any SaaS business - I work for one. we want to measure the revenue generated by the customer over their entire time using our product, compared to the CAC (cost of acquiring customer). we make cloud software for use in small law firms. and we don't make any money on a 1-2 user firm who only sign on for the initial term. they need to renew to be a profitable deal for us. our LTV is higher than CAC for firms who buy more users - we want every client to renew but we at least aren't eating shit on the 3+ user firms who may only use us for a single term.

vail is also SaaS, but instead of Software as a Service, its Skiing as a Service. its all about that recurring revenue.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 18, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Come on,
> 
> Good point and that my friend is call perception... A unbalanced slide serves no good...


Also love the slide talking about how they have the "top brands" with the high "brand awareness" rankings for their own resorts. Then the footnote says the Brand Awareness rankings are "Based on Vail Resorts survey of destination guests". So you surveyed people that visited your resorts asking them how aware they were of the brand for said resorts? Sure...I'm sure that gives a completely fair and accurate view of the true "brand awareness" of your resorts.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> OK so I could almost see calling Okemo and Mt. Snow regional despite them being destination places for folks outside of New England, but *calling Stowe "regional" is downright insulting as one who skis the east.*
> 
> Smh at how *they labelled pretty much every one of their western resorts and then left the east as a bunch of yellow dots.*.. but then proceeded to list all of the cities around here.  Vail cares about the markets, not the skiing



It reminds me of when you're reading a ski magazine, and it dawns on you that the author has never skied in the east once in his/her life because of something he/she said that is so clearly 100% wrong.  Vail is a CO company, and I imagine >80% of its' employees are from west of the Mississippi.

But yeah, they buy eastern resorts for increasing EPIC Pass market share, not because they think the skiing's any good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *LTV (lifetime value) is a common metric for any SaaS business *



I imagine they want the market to make that connection, because SaaS companies have rather high multiples.  The word, "lifetime" occurs 24 times in that short presentation.


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## PAabe (Aug 18, 2021)

Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition.  I mean they do mention some stuff, but it's all numbers.  What is Vail doing to make me want to _*ski*_ there rather than their competitors - both other megapass and individual ski areas? Like by having happy employees, interesting ski areas, and a pleasant experience.

Can Vail continue to grow without simply getting existing customers of the places it buys out to join their pass?  By having some of the highest relative lift ticket prices, are they trying to cater to the frequent skier for whom a pass would make sense (yet they claim to be making skiing more "accessible")?  By attracting these frequent skier visits, will they be able to provide a good product while having a lower $-per-skier-visit, and will they be able to invest enough $ back in to deal with increased visitation?

Can Vail become a company of big data analysis/brand marketing without running the actual ski areas into the ground? We shall see I guess.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 18, 2021)

Also:



> Creating best-in-class digital experience and centralized guest contact centers



lmao


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 18, 2021)

From what I gather from that document,The average Epic skier only goes skiing about 4-6 times a season. That's the Colorado clientele and it's totally different from New England.  It's a once a year Disneyland vacation for those folks  See some mountains and snow then go back to 65 degree weather in Dallas in January. That's what the data has told them.  The typical customer doesn't care if the experience sucks just as long as what they spend seems reasonable.  That's the model.  

Their ownership of anywhere in the East except Hunter, Snow, Okemo and Stowe is all about grabbing subscribers to hopefully vacation out West.  Even those places are short money for Vacation bottom line compared to attracting  people to Vail or Breck. 

I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas.  Constant austerity measures. I hope I'm wrong because I love those areas and live here.  But the writing on the wall seems clear, so I'm out.  I'll ski at places that value the fulle time committed customers vs transactional ones


----------



## cdskier (Aug 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition.  What is Vail doing to make me want to _*ski*_ there rather than their competitors - both other megapass and individual ski areas?
> 
> Can Vail continue to grow without simply getting existing customers of the places it buys out to join their pass?  By having some of the highest relative lift ticket prices, are they trying to cater to the frequent skier for whom a pass would make sense (yet they claim to be making skiing more "accessible")?  By attracting these frequent skier visits, will they be able to provide a good product while having a lower $-per-skier-visit, and will they be able to invest enough $ back in to deal with increased visitation?
> 
> Can Vail become a company of big data analysis/brand marketing without running the actual ski areas into the ground? We shall see I guess.



But...they have an *irreplaceable *resort network! What more do skiers need? 

The growth question is interesting as well. When I saw the slide about how pass revenue was increasing every year, I was wondering to myself how much of that was actually intrinsic growth vs growth through acquisitions. Of course you're going to sell more passes after buying new resorts because now you're getting all the pass sales from that resort's client base.

That said, the Epic Day pass at $67 for a day that is valid at Stowe on non-holidays is actually not a bad price at all. I paid $59/day back in 2008 when I was last there for a weekend trip.


----------



## abc (Aug 18, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition.


To be fair, it's the Investor Conference. 

I bet many of the investors don't ski! They're there for the return of their investment. 

So yes, if you want to say Vail doesn't car about skiing, you may have hit on some truth. Their investor doesn't care what business Vail is in, as long as its stock keeps going up. As for the management? Their mandate is the best return for their investor. Happy skiers may help that, or may not. Regardless, the "management" care the most about wringing the maximum amount of cash out of skiers. How it's done, either by providing excellent skiing experience, or best on mountain party scene, doesn't really matter to the investors.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas.  Constant austerity measures. I hope I'm wrong* because I love those areas and live here.



You are not.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas.  Constant austerity measures.


Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore.  Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster. 

For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and  hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.


----------



## Edd (Aug 21, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore.  Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster.
> 
> For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and  hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.


The skiing experience between Cranmore and Attitash is extremely different, with Attitash being a lot more challenging but the vibe at Cranmore is sooo much better to me. This was pre-Vail also.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore.  Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster.
> 
> For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and  hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.



Yup it's just sad and makes me angry.

It's kinda like driving through an old town and seeing a once grand Victorian House rotting into the ground.  The difference being when you see a house like that, it's usually owned by some poor old couple that has run out of money and energy to care for the property.  

That's not Vail.  They have plenty of money to care for and run these classic ski areas properly.  But they don't. They're just a bunch of greedy fucks who don't care about their customers; families that have been making memories at these mountains for generations.  Their customers are just numbers to them. 

Out of principle I simply cannot give them another dime of my money until I see massive improvement. 

 I'm not holding my breath


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## Middle-aged skier (Aug 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup it's just sad and makes me angry.
> 
> It's kinda like driving through an old town and seeing a once grand Victorian House rotting into the ground.  The difference being when you see a house like that, it's usually owned by some poor old couple that has run out of money and energy to care for the property.
> 
> ...


I agree with every word you said, however I couldn’t not go to wildcat in early and late season. As far as “giving them another dime” you are a better man then me


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## Harvey (Aug 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The average Epic skier only goes skiing about 4-6 times a season.


I think this is close to the average industry wide.


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## kingslug (Aug 22, 2021)

Hmmm..that explains why the average Epic skier..is not that epic a skier.....


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2021)

Middle-aged skier said:


> I agree with every word you said, however I couldn’t not go to wildcat in early and late season. As far as “giving them another dime” you are a better man then me



Not an easy decision.  I've been a regular at Wildcat since moving to NH in 2008.   Had a pass there 8 of the last 9 seasons. It's become my favorite ski mountain in New England save for Saddleback.  Always dreamed of raising my kids as Cat skiers.

But, Vail is just not worthy of my business.

Next year I have my 6 and soon to be 3 year old in seasonal programs at Gunstock and also have Indy passes.  When the 3 year old is a bit more tolerant of frequent two hour drives, I'll shift them up to Cannon.

So, in Vails calculations on running their business based upon anticipated "lifetime value", they're missing out on likely a six figure spend from just my one family.  Between passes, seasonal programs, F&B and retail it will add up quite a bit.

I hope Vail still provides the early and late season turns you desire.  They hacked down the season pretty good last year.  The days of Wildcat pushing for early November opening and May 1st closing ain't happening under Vail.


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## Harvey (Aug 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> So, in Vails calculations on running their business based upon anticipated "lifetime value", they're missing out on likely a six figure spend from just my one family. Between passes, seasonal programs, F&B and retail it will add up quite a bit.


Sad to say I don't think Vail cares.

I'm guessing, for Vail, lifetime value looks good in the annual report, and hey anything real comes of it, they'll take it. But I don't see it as an objective.


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## Middle-aged skier (Aug 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not an easy decision.  I've been a regular at Wildcat since moving to NH in 2008.   Had a pass there 8 of the last 9 seasons. It's become my favorite ski mountain in New England save for Saddleback.  Always dreamed of raising my kids as Cat skiers.
> 
> But, Vail is just not worthy of my business.
> 
> ...


Just a place to ski before it fills in across the notch at this point. You won’t catch me at a resort when the turns are good in the backcountry.


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## Smellytele (Aug 22, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and  hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.


Matters where in NH. Being in central NH I have Cannon as an option.


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## JimG. (Aug 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Out of principle I simply cannot give them another dime of my money until I see massive improvement.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath


I predict you will become a Saddleback season passholder and potential property owner there as well.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I predict you will become a Saddleback season passholder and potential property owner there as well.



Oh man, if my life circumstances were different I totally would be planning for that. Saddleback for sure would be my first choice.  It's just too far for me to commit to every weekend.  It's about 3.5 hours in good weather.  That's not terrible, but I travel so much for work midweek that my tolerance for long drives on the weekends is low.

Current plan in to eventually buy a second home in Meredith, NH area.  That would put us about 45-50 minutes to Cannon and 25 minutes to our marina on the other side of Lake Winnipesaukee.  That would be about perfect as we are 2 hours from Cannon and 1 hour from the marina at our primary residence currently.   We have zero desire to boat out of anywhere else, so proximity to the marina is equally as important as proximity to skiing for us.   And we love where our primary residence is.  God willing we stay in Newmarket until the dirt nap.  We never want to leave.  But having easier access to our recreational passions is for sure the dream.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 22, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I think this is close to the average industry wide.



Yup; the data show that pretty much every year since forever.


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## cdskier (Aug 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup; the data show that pretty much every year since forever.


Overall yes, although pass-holders typically are above that number. The last NSAA data on that topic said pass-holders in the northeast region averaged almost 14 days per pass, while all other regions are in the 9 to 11 days per passholder range. So Epic averaging only 4-6 days for their passholders is below average across the board from the perspective of skiers with passes. This could be skewed downward though for Epic right off the bat if Vail considers the "Epic Day Pass" holders as "passholders" (which I think they do based on the presentation earlier in this thread).


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> * Epic averaging only 4-6 days for their passholders is below average across the board from the perspective of skiers with passes.*



True, but remember, EPIC is for many people a "season pass" in name only.  There are literally thousands of people who buy a "season pass" from Vail solely for the 4 days they'll be skiing in Colorado or Utah.


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## cdskier (Aug 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> True, but remember, EPIC is for many people a "season pass" in name only.  There are literally thousands of people who buy a "season pass" from Vail solely for the 4 days they'll be skiing in Colorado or Utah.


Yup, absolutely. And I'm sure Vail is fairly happy with that. They get people locked in with an advanced commitment (which is one of their big goals) and also get a high yield per day from those people. And I'm sure a significant number of people that only ski those handful of days are also spending money on lodging and food, etc because it is part of 1 big trip they plan to take.


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## Quietman (Aug 23, 2021)

So I live 20 minutes from Crotched, will likely ski 90% of my time there, maybe a day at Sunapee or Wildcat.  Didn't but the pass last year, which ended up being good decision with the weekend crowds,(I know Covid enhanced) and only skied 6 times for the winter which sucked, glades were only "good" 3-4 days.  Assume with a pass I will ski more and can cherry pick less crowed times for 3-4 hour jaunts.  I hate that way that the other NH resorts have been treated, but Crotch and Sunapee seem to be ok.   Have to make a decision by 9/6, and I am waffling.


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## drjeff (Aug 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> True, but remember, EPIC is for many people a "season pass" in name only.  There are literally thousands of people who buy a "season pass" from Vail solely for the 4 days they'll be skiing in Colorado or Utah.



Not to mention that there are certainly folks (probably not as many as the single Vail/Park City/Whistler trip crowd) for whom Epic is one of multiple passes that they own, so while they may only use their Epic's say 10 times a year, they're also using their other pass(es) numerous other times a season


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Not to mention that there are certainly folks (probably not as many as the single Vail/Park City/Whistler trip crowd) for whom Epic is one of multiple passes that they own, so while they may only use their Epic's say 10 times a year, they're also using their other pass(es) numerous other times a season



That is spot on!  We have Epic and A Basin.  I know people that bought Ikon and Epic - probably some here for that matter.  Heck if I got the Epic Veteran and the Ikon Base Pass it would have been about $1200 and Bretton Woods pass is technically $1100 right now.


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## abc (Aug 23, 2021)

No matter how it's spun, I can't possibly fathom the rational of buying an Epic pass and only use it for average of 4-5 days. 

OK, for one year I can see. Life circumstance does get in the way sometimes. But year after year???

Not to forget, an "average" of 4-5 days means there're lots of people who ski LESS than that (to balance out those of us who ski 40-50 days!)


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## abc (Aug 23, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That is spot on!  We have Epic and A Basin.  I know people that bought Ikon and Epic - probably some here for that matter.  Heck if I got the Epic Veteran and the Ikon Base Pass it would have been about $1200 and Bretton Woods pass is technically $1100 right now.


But those people who have multiple passes ski tons of days! So their average on each pass is still way more than 4-5!

(I have a friend in Colorado who have both Epic and Ikon (formerly RMSP) for multiple years. But she puts in nearly 100 days total. Split between the 2 passes (some years she get 3), it's still in the double digits.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2021)

abc said:


> No matter how it's spun,* I can't possibly fathom the rational of buying an Epic pass and only use it for average of 4-5 days.*



The logic is pretty easy, it's financially advantageous if you plan to ski a Vail resort on your vacation since they artificially jacked single day lift tickets to eleventy-billion dollars each.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 24, 2021)

I can't quite fathom how you can't understand how people only use their passes a few days a year.  The folks on this site are in a minority of people who ski A LOT OF DAYS.   There are tons of people who ski 1 week a year and as BG said they get a perceived "value" in buying an epic pass for the 1 week ski vacation.   Its one of the reasons Vail went to this model I'm sure.  They have metrics and Joe or Janet Skier comes to the resort once a year and skis 4-5 days.  If we sell them a pass that makes the vacation appear cheaper not only do we get their money up front, we keep them as a returning customer.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2021)

Also the convenience factor of not having to stand in understaffed long ass lines to buy day tickets


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## ss20 (Aug 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I can't quite fathom how you can't understand how people only use their passes a few days a year.  The folks on this site are in a minority of people who ski A LOT OF DAYS.   There are tons of people who ski 1 week a year and as BG said they get a perceived "value" in buying an epic pass for the 1 week ski vacation.   Its one of the reasons Vail went to this model I'm sure.  They have metrics and Joe or Janet Skier comes to the resort once a year and skis 4-5 days.  If we sell them a pass that makes the vacation appear cheaper not only do we get their money up front, we keep them as a returning customer.



Yep.  One of my buddies had an Epic veteran pass and used it twice iirc.  Another one of my buddies had Ikon and used it maybe 6 times?  

It's really turning into a model like that of insurance.  I've been living in the same house for 25 years and have had it insured the whole time.  I took out one claim for like $5k three years ago for some storm damage, and that's it.  I've certainly put more into it than I've gotten out of it.  I'd bet Epic Passes are the same way....there's more people who use the pass 5 days a year than 100 days a year.  

And yes, this forum is representative of the 1%er of skier habits...it's a terrible sample lol.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I can't quite fathom how you can't understand how people only use their passes a few days a year.  The folks on this site are in a minority of people who ski A LOT OF DAYS.   There are tons of people who ski 1 week a year and as BG said they get a perceived "value" in buying an epic pass for the 1 week ski vacation.   Its one of the reasons Vail went to this model I'm sure.  They have metrics and Joe or Janet Skier comes to the resort once a year and skis 4-5 days.  If we sell them a pass that makes the vacation appear cheaper not only do we get their money up front, we keep them as a returning customer.



That is spot on!  We have met people from Florida, Texas, and other southern states that visit for 1 week and that is it,  I even worked with some that live in Colorado Springs area and they also just do a week.  Weekend warriors are a different breed!  Weekday Warriors are even more different.


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## 2Planker (Aug 24, 2021)

My buddy from the US Virgin Islands get the Epic Military pass for his family of 5. Something ridiculous like $250/pass....
They go to CO for a week in Dec/Jan and then in March it's  7-10 days  somewhere else
 They always seem to get in 14-15 days/year


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## abc (Aug 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I can't quite fathom how you can't understand how people only use their passes a few days a year.





jimmywilson69 said:


> There are tons of people who ski 1 week a year and as BG said they get a perceived "value" in buying an epic pass for the 1 week ski vacation.


Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!

1 week is 5-7 days!!!

Who skis only 4 days in a week long trip? (serious question here, any of your family member of "less avid skiers" does less than 4 days? Don't forget, "average" of 4 days means lots of people ski LESS than 4)

No, I can't quite fathom. Why pay $600 for 6 days of skiing when you can pay $1000 for the same number of days? Because that $1000 can let you go anywhere out side of Vail empire!

Are people so focus on "saving" money that they would pay in advance, limiting themselves to a handful of destinations. And then not ski enough number of days to even make the pass "pay for itself"???

How much does "lost of opportunity" cost?


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That is spot on!  We have met people from Florida, Texas, and other southern states that visit for 1 week and that is it,  I even worked with some that live in Colorado Springs area and they also just do a week.  Weekend warriors are a different breed!  Weekday Warriors are even more different.


But if the average is 4-5 days then there are a lot of people under that that are getting no value compared to day tickets. 
also day tickets are bought online now as well.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!
> 
> 1 week is 5-7 days!!!
> 
> ...



"are people so focused on saving money that they would pay in advance, limiting themselves to a handful of destinations, and then not ski enough number of days to even make the pass pay for itself' --> yes. of course. if you are a family of 5 who go on one ski trip a year, the savings are obvious and they don't care about having options. they want to go to vail or whistler, where they always go, every year. and spend a shitload of money on other official vail bullshit like lessons, cheeseburgers, and slopeside lodging. and they may not care if they take 2-3 days off during the ski week. they may go to the spa, or a massage, or shopping, or ice skating. they aren't core skiers. 

vail loves that customer. they hate customers who ski 50+ days and bring bacon in their pockets and sleep in a motel 20 minutes away.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!
> 
> 1 week is 5-7 days!!!
> 
> ...



See my responses in bold.

you aren't wrapping your head around this from the 1 week a year skier.  The way you ski, which is awesome, is completely different than most people. Its even different than someone like me who's local mole hill is now in the empire.  Of course I like to go other places, but if I've already paid for it why not ski for "free" on my pass.

Next year I'm doing both Ikon and Epic so I do have some more flexibility.  Unfortunately some unexpected home repairs took my Ikon money this year...


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> But if the average is 4-5 days then there are a lot of people under that that are getting no value compared to day tickets.
> also day tickets are bought online now as well.


Yes...but from a Vail perspective, remember that Epic Day passes are considered "pass-holders". You can buy a 1 or 2 day Epic Day pass. Your daily rate is well below the window rate (especially if the resort you ski is one of their "destination resorts"). I suspect Vail sells quite a few of these Epic Day passes where people only pay for (and use) them for a very small number of days. 

Also keep in mind that doesn't necessarily mean that is all these people ski. This could just be all they ski at Vail properties. They may also plan a trip somewhere else using a different pass (or day tickets or other deals depending on the mountain).

I don't like Vail/Epic one bit, yet right now I could go and buy a 1-day Epic day pass valid at Stowe on non-holidays for $67. That's very tempting and would count me as an "Epic passholder" if I were to buy it.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2021)

Didn't know Epic day passes counted in that calculation.  There's your answer for the low averages.

There probably still are some that underuse their full passes, but the break even there is still quite a low number of days.   I just looked up a 5 day ticket for Christmas week at Vail and it's $910 if you buy online.   $1145 if you buy at the window.


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## machski (Aug 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!
> 
> 1 week is 5-7 days!!!
> 
> Who skis only 4 days in a week long trip? (serious


Splitting hairs now, ehh?  Well, if folks only get Sat-following Sunday off and elect to travel Sun-Sat, might be down to 5 full days for Vaca.  The average "vacation" skier probably may choose a side excursion day not skiing (maybe snowmobile, shopping, hot springs, etc) vs skiing a day.  So there is your 4 day skiing weeklong trip ABC.  Also remember, they may have a season pass but many are also renting ski equipment if not the ski wear too for their "Vaca" trips.  Hard those of us dedicated to skiing to grasp I know, but the Evil Empire I'm sure does.


----------



## machski (Aug 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Also the convenience factor of not having to stand in understaffed long ass lines to buy day tickets


With RFID and best pricing online ahead of arriving, this is rapidly diminishing as a reason to go season pass.  Even for the once I. A while folks, many resorts are pushing this info front and center.  So the convenience of direct to lift is not just for the passholder anymore.


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## ctdubl07 (Aug 24, 2021)

"bacon in their pocket"....that made me laugh

On another Vail point, have they announced/updated any of their capital improvement projects? 

Understanding the pandemic and cash flow has likely altered the schedule of these communications, I seem to recall that a big announcements would come out each year just post season or early summer about the coming years cap investments. 

For example Im sure that many of the projects communicated in 2019 were derailed and not taken up in 2020....anyone see something I've missed?

thanks in advance.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!
> 
> 1 week is 5-7 days!!!
> 
> ...



Many think differently than you or most of us for that matter!  If you do not buy a pass and the pass deadline comes and goes then you are forced to pay daily window rates.  I buy the Epic Veteran Pass at $447 if I vacation at Vail for a Saturday to Saturday both Saturdays are mostly travel time.  two days at Vail pretty much pays for my pass.  So some might ski two days and take a break and then ski two more days and now the week went by.  Especially families.  But from their point of view they saved money.  Their objective is not to ski 30-50 days on the pass.  Most in the forum are focused on skiing as many days as possible and in the end we also break it down to a daily average.

So not take a different look - a 4 day pass is $323 and for Children it is $168  now you have a family that is skiing on a 4 day pass on the relative cheap.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

machski said:


> With RFID and best pricing online ahead of arriving, this is rapidly diminishing as a reason to go season pass.  Even for the once I. A while folks, many resorts are pushing this info front and center.  So the convenience of direct to lift is not just for the passholder anymore.



I doubt Epic goes that route  - the same for Ikon.  They want the commitment early.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2021)

Folks trippin about low season pass usage rates should spend time at a marina sometime.  Your minds would be blown.  Six figure boats (much higher than that elsewhere from where I boat) five figure slip and maintenance bills annually and some of these boats only leave the docks 3-4 times a summer.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Folks trippin about low season pass usage rates should spend time at a marina sometime.  Your minds would be blown.  Six figure boats (much higher than that elsewhere from where I boat) five figure slip and maintenance bills annually and some of these boats only leave the docks 3-4 times a summer.



some people have too much money!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> some people have too much money!



I would not be one of those people.  I use mine every chance I can get.  My boating days probably exceed my skiing days


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2021)

A boat - A hole in the water you through money into


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## drjeff (Aug 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Except 1 week isn't 4-5 days!
> 
> 1 week is 5-7 days!!!
> 
> ...



The folks, many who don't live within driving distance of a ski resort for weekend trips, who take a week, or maybe 2 weeks a year. 

Fly-in/arrive on Sunday, plan to ski/ride Mon-Friday, realize along about Wednesday that their legs are shot from Monday/Tuesday, decide to go say snowmobiling or some other non skiing/riding activity on Wednesday. Ski/ride on Thursday and Friday, 

Depart for home on Saturday. In their mind they're avoiding the weekends which they have heard are the most crowded, and their not used to skiing/riding before their vacation "week" each year

Not that different than the masses who show uo on MLK Weekend or President's Weekend, thinking they're going to ski/ride Sat-Mon, but often have legs that have no interest on heading back out on the hill on Monday.

While not the typical AZ'er demographics, there sure are a sizable number of the masses, who make up the bulk of the skiing/riding population whom this decsribes accurately


----------



## drjeff (Aug 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> A boat - A hole in the water you through money into


Also *B*reak *O*ut *A*nother *T*housand


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> A boat - A hole in the water you through money into


BOAT, stands for,  Bust Out Another Thousand


----------



## drjeff (Aug 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I would not be one of those people.  I use mine every chance I can get.  My boating days probably exceed my skiing days


That's me with the golf course I belong to (and since it's just a golf course, and no pool or tennis courts or restaurant we don't actually consider it a Country Club  ) - I want to get in atleast as many rounds of golf a season as I skied the previous Winter,  Skied 66 days last season. Played my 45th round of golfthis past Saturday. Should easily get past the 66 total before I put my ski boots on and head to the slopes. Probably would be just about to that 66 number right now if mother nature didn't feel like having it rain close to 20 inches in my part of CT since the beginning of July, especially with a tendency for thunderstorms rolling though the area right about the time I get out of work way too many days since the beginning of July!!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2021)

drjeff said:


> That's me with the golf course I belong to (and since it's just a golf course, and no pool or tennis courts or restaurant we don't actually consider it a Country Club  ) - I want to get in atleast as many rounds of golf a season as I skied the previous Winter,  Skied 66 days last season. Played my 45th round of golfthis past Saturday. Should easily get past the 66 total before I put my ski boots on and head to the slopes. Probably would be just about to that 66 number right now if mother nature didn't feel like having it rain close to 20 inches in my part of CT since the beginning of July, especially with a tendency for thunderstorms rolling though the area right about the time I get out of work way too many days since the beginning of July!!


Same deal.  Wettest July on record for much of NH.  Late May and early June were pretty bad too. 

Probably lost 8-10 days to rain this season.  Just as painful as rain during ski season.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Same deal.  Wettest July on record for much of NH.  Late May and early June were pretty bad too.
> 
> Probably lost 8-10 days to rain this season.  Just as painful as rain during ski season.


Idk rain in ski season can wreck stuff for several days or even weeks


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Idk rain in ski season can wreck stuff for several days or even weeks



That is what snowmaking is for!


----------



## kingslug (Aug 24, 2021)

Lost the whole month of August for racing the bike..the weather report for the weekends is always the same ...rain.


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## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That is what snowmaking is for!


Doesn’t help when there is a freeze up after and then 2 inches of man made on top of sheer ice.


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## JimG. (Aug 24, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> vail loves that customer. they hate customers who ski 50+ days and bring bacon in their pockets and sleep in a motel 20 minutes away.


This sums it up for me.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 24, 2021)

If I only skied once a season and it was a week at a Western moutain resort you'd have to put me in a wheelchair after skiing five days straight lol.

This past winter I opened my season at Jackson Hole.  Day one I skied 8:30-3.  Day two I skied a full full day.  Day three I called it at like 2pm.  Then I drove down to Alta for day 4 in a row.  Day five was spent sleeping lol.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 24, 2021)

JimG. said:


> This sums it up for me.


They really hate their own employees too.  You used to be able to get 50% discount, so a Burger & Fries was reasonable at $8.50

 Now NOBODY $$$ pays for anything. They even got rid of the Saltines + PB....
 The days of free Cinnamon rolls for patrollers (Shhhh) are over, and more than 1/2 have left Tash & Cat for better pastures.

 I wish them the best, but will never  "work" (volunteering 40-50 days/year) for an organization that cares so little about both it's guests and it's staff.
 BW has extended an offer but the best $$$ so far is Purity Springs, and that's less than 4 miles from home...

May just be a ski bum again, but usually gets boring by mid January


----------



## mister moose (Aug 24, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The days of *free Cinnamon rolls* for patrollers (Shhhh) are over, and more than 1/2 have left Tash & Cat for better pastures.


Wut?  This is huge.  I'd volunteer for that alone.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 24, 2021)

The unwritten rule in hospitality is you take care of the help and they take care of business. Shift meals or steeply reduced daily specials. All but resorts should have an employee canteen sorta set up. Some places do but most dont. Cheap pints and break even food. Vegetables are nice too. But if your gonna pay and shit wage and not feed them? Yeah they're gonna eat your food on the sly.


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## drjeff (Aug 24, 2021)

snoseek said:


> The unwritten rule in hospitality is you take care of the help and they take care of business. Shift meals or steeply reduced daily specials. All but resorts should have an employee canteen sorta set up. Some places do but most dont. Cheap pints and break even food. Vegetables are nice too. But if your gonna pay and shit wage and not feed them? Yeah they're gonna eat your food on the sly.



Is anyone really surprised given the infatuation with data that not just Vail has, but so many other companies across all spectrums of society these days? 

Customer service is more relevant based on what the data from random surveys that few fill out show than the actual physical sight of happy customers these days.

And you know who we have to blame? So many of ourselves and the data driven seemingly ravenous infatuation that many have with trying to reinvent and "modernize" most anything or system that was in place prior to societies addiction to smartphones and the dopamine release that far too many people get from the ability to almost instantaneously get most things from a few moments with on their phones/tablets rather than actually having to go somewhere themselves. 

It's like the folks who insist on buying all their ski gear online and then complain about the fit/performance and potentially having to go to a brick and mortar shop and then pay that shop to adjust/properly fit/mount the gear they bought online trying to save a few bucks. The data may drive the pricing, but don't then expect the highest of levels of service when dealing with a website instead of a person


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *Didn't know Epic day passes counted* in that calculation.  There's your answer for the low averages.



They only started lumping them like that in 19/20, and for the life of me the only reason for it I can think of is to intentionally decrease transparency.  It's not REALLY a "pass", so there's no reason they simply couldn't break that product out separately, which I clearly think would be more appropriate.  Seems odd.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 25, 2021)

2Planker said:


> They really hate their own employees too.  You used to be able to get 50% discount, so a Burger & Fries was reasonable at $8.50
> 
> Now NOBODY $$$ pays for anything. They even got rid of the Saltines + PB....
> The days of free Cinnamon rolls for patrollers (Shhhh) are over, and more than 1/2 have left Tash & Cat for better pastures.
> ...


Vail offer every employee a $5.00 meal per day and 50% off of additional meals. Free ski passes for employees and their dependents is also pretty nice.


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## 2Planker (Aug 25, 2021)

No more dependents pass for Vol Patrol, and $5 off a $16 burg & fries still puts it out of reach for most employees.
Then they refuse to pay for the recertification courses that are required every year.

Do the math.   $700 pass/200 hours (20 days) works out to $3.50/hr.
Even my 13yo niece says "You're a doctor... Why would you work for $3.50/hr ????"
I don't really have an answe for her.

The list goes back before Vail to 2010 when the cuts started.
The unionization talks have been in the works for years.  Now, it's been kicked up a notch.


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## mbedle (Aug 25, 2021)

2Planker said:


> No more dependents pass for Vol Patrol, and $5 off a $16 burg & fries still puts it out of reach for most employees.
> Then they refuse to pay for the recertification courses that are required every year.
> 
> Do the math.   $700 pass/200 hours (20 days) works out to $3.50/hr.
> ...


I didn't know you were talking about ski patrol. I was talking about employees.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I can't quite fathom how you can't understand how people only use their passes a few days a year.  The folks on this site are in a minority of people who ski A LOT OF DAYS.   There are tons of people who ski 1 week a year and as BG said they get a perceived "value" in buying an epic pass for the 1 week ski vacation.   Its one of the reasons Vail went to this model I'm sure.  They have metrics and Joe or Janet Skier comes to the resort once a year and skis 4-5 days.  If we sell them a pass that makes the vacation appear cheaper not only do we get their money up front, we keep them as a returning customer.


Because they live in Texas or Florida.  It’s like a week of Disney park pass.  The Colorado market doesn’t cater to the locals driving up the hill from metro Denver.  They’re targeting people flying in.  They want your lodging dollars.  Your food & beverage dollars.   Your equipment rental dollars.  Your ski school and daycare dollars.   With a season pass, they also want you back a second time to spend all that money again.  It’s not the same market as the drive-to that brown bags it and stays  on the cheap in the No Tell Motel 10 miles out.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 25, 2021)

exactly  which is why its doesn't work when they push that approach on an eastern mostly drive up/day trip market.  A truly smart CEO would have recognized that, but Katz thinks everyone wants to fly to Vail and Whistler.


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> exactly  which is why its doesn't work when they push that approach on an eastern mostly drive up/day trip market.  A truly smart CEO would have recognized that, but Katz thinks everyone wants to fly to Vail and Whistler.



Not so sure about that.... Buy an Epic, get all of the Eastern properties (mention Stowe, Okemo and Mount Snow at the top of the list, names that the few times a year crowd from the East Coast is likely to have heard of) and then dangle the prospect of Vail, Whistler and Park City as options on the same pass, all with a break even point of 5 or 6 days (for many of their properties) and also add on the potential of loding discounts and select food and beverage discounts, and that's the recipe for sure to sell a bunch to the casual skier/rider, which is then likely to get them to spend other $$ at those properties rather than competitors properties.

Do I necessarily like it as someone who skis most weekends at Mount Snow? Nope

I am I hoping that service wise things this will will get a bit more "normal" vs last years COVID season? Yes

Will I likely be dissapointed in some of the operational decisions Vail chooses to make at my home hill? Yup

Will a bunch of us sound like old farts talking about the "good old days" soon as the data driven crowd continues to take over the ski industry? 100% certain of that


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## FBGM (Aug 25, 2021)

I just love how there is now 135 pages of Vail hate.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn’t help when there is a freeze up after and then 2 inches of man made on top of sheer ice.



That is the essence of New England skiing - why they say if you can ski NE you can ski anywhere!


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> It's like the folks who insist on buying all their ski gear online and then complain about the fit/performance and potentially having to go to a brick and mortar shop and then pay that shop to adjust/properly fit/mount the gear they bought online trying to save a few bucks. The data may drive the pricing, but don't then expect the highest of levels of service when dealing with a website instead of a person



I buy gear on line and get binding mounted locally - does not cost a lot.  Online purchases are fine if you know what you want and understand what you are getting.  If you are online guessing then that is bad on that person.  Our kids, my wife and I have never regretted any online purchases!  I would rather spend a day online researching than driving around to several shops to repeat myself.  I an certainly not going into one shop and trusting their prices and staff - I would want second opinions and as a result I trust my research.,


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2021)

I chuckled as I received these two items at the same time in the mail yesterday.  

One place I'm spending money with without even being there.  The other I'm costing them money (albeit pennies) with no intentions of going there until major changes in operating philosophies occur.


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## JimG. (Aug 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> exactly  which is why its doesn't work when they push that approach on an eastern mostly drive up/day trip market.  A truly smart CEO would have recognized that, but Katz thinks everyone wants to fly to Vail and Whistler.


I think they are evil and do recognize that. Their plan is to run the eastern resorts out of business so people will have to fly out west to ski.

They're starting with NH.


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## mgalluzz1 (Aug 25, 2021)

2Planker said:


> No more dependents pass for Vol Patrol, and $5 off a $16 burg & fries still puts it out of reach for most employees.
> Then they refuse to pay for the recertification courses that are required every year.
> 
> Do the math.   $700 pass/200 hours (20 days) works out to $3.50/hr.
> ...


By the sounds of this, I’m guessing that Vail did not entertain the proposal for a purchase of wildcat?


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2021)

mgalluzz1 said:


> By the sounds of this, I’m guessing that Vail did not entertain the proposal for a purchase of wildcat?



Probably so, and I am guessing that if true, not very many people should be surprised.  If they (Vail) were going to do something with selling off of any of their resorts, my hunch is that it would be prior to when the following seasons EPIC's go on sale, that way they won't have to go through the issues of taking resort options away from a product they're selling, as even with Wildcat, which I am guessing not a huge amount of EPIC passholders use exclusively at Wildcat all season long, they'd have the issue of some folks, likely filing a lawsuit against them (Vail) for not living up to what they were sold on, and you'd also have the situation with Wildcat, if sold, where you'd have some folks, who bought an EPIC pass, wanting to be comp'd a Wildcat pass, and then the new owners's wouldn't see the pass revenue from those folks in year 1.  

Easy to add more resorts to a pass once sales have begun and not have potential lawsuit issues, much tougher to take resorts away from a pass offering once sales have started and not create potential issues


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I think they are evil and do recognize that. Their plan is to run the eastern resorts out of business so people will have to fly out west to ski.
> 
> They're starting with NH.


maybe I'm not so much a cynic on this thought, but why would they want these areas to close?   they would undoubtedly loose thousands of passholders which = $$$

sure they want us to go to their flagship resorts, but closing the feeder hills is biting off the hand that feeds.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> maybe I'm not so much a cynic on this thought, but why would they want these areas to close?   they would undoubtedly loose thousands of passholders which = $$$
> 
> sure they want us to go to their flagship resorts, but closing the feeder hills is biting off the hand that feeds.


I agree. They very well may neglect those areas and run them as lean as possible, but they're not stupid enough to think that if they closed the eastern resorts they could simply get enough of those people to go west to make up for the lost revenue generated by the eastern areas.

Are there any stats anywhere on how many people ski exclusively in the east vs travel west at least once a season? I'm sure Vail has data from their own resorts on this subject, but it would be interesting numbers to know overall. I'd bet far more people ski the east exclusively vs travel to multiple regions every year.

Plus, if Vail closed eastern resorts, what makes anyone think people would go west instead? There's plenty of non-Vail resorts in the east. Many people would just go to those resorts instead.

(I'm also thinking Jim's comment may have been a bit facetious though).


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 25, 2021)

cdskier said:


> (I'm also thinking Jim's comment may have been a bit facetious though).


for sure but its worth discussing  and shows just how bad vail sucks that people will actually discuss this topic.

Unfortunately they'll get my money as long as I want to ski 4 miles from home...   so I'm really part of the problem not the solution.


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## 2Planker (Aug 25, 2021)

mgalluzz1 said:


> By the sounds of this, I’m guessing that Vail did not entertain the proposal for a purchase of wildcat?


Last I heard (last week) was that they had not responded by the Aug 15 date.
Contrary to popular opinion: I am *not* one of the investors. 
I'm just an over qualified, 35 year NSP veteran. Always looking for the best season pass deal locally....

Tash & Cat have been good for years, BUT not last year.  
Cannon is a lil far. Not a Loon fan.  

May have to just be a ski bum. 
Wow, haven't bought a pass since the 80's.


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## gittist (Aug 25, 2021)

"

"Unfortunately they'll get my money as long as I want to ski 4 miles from home...   so I'm really part of the problem not the solution"

They'll get some of my money too because there are five EPIC ski areas in Pennsylvania and zero IKON.  I go to NH just for Wildcat so I hope they improve this year. I got to like Wildcat when the Red Hook Brewery in Portsmouth used to sponsor ski bus trips there.


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## NYDB (Aug 25, 2021)

Wildcat skier visits are  what, 100-125k per year?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2021)

The sad reality for the Vail NH areas is that they just aren't friendly and likely never will be for a corporate bottom line looking to please shareholders.

Look at 

Okemo - 600k visits a year, 15 lifts
500 acres of snowmaking terrain, 5 day lodges, 1 GM and the needed support management positions

Compare that to NH

Wildcat - 100K visits a year, 4 lifts
Attitash - 150K visits a year, 9 lifts
Sunapee - 250K visits a year,  8 lifts
Crotched - 100k visits a year, 5 lifts

Probably 600 acres of snowmaking terrain across those mountains, 7 day lodges, 4 GMs and all of the necessary management and staff to run them. 

Easy to see that 1 Okemo is WAY more profitable than all 4 NH areas combined. 

So, I get it.  Doesn't mean I have to like it and support it.  

Ski resorts becoming publicly traded companies is just the Walmarting of skiing.  All about the shareholder and not the customer experience, but enough customers want cheap that they can get away with it.  And that's quite literally the case with Vail with their bargain basement pricing that the locally owned competition can't compete with. 

Very few Win Smiths with Sugarbush and Louis Bacons with Taos that have tons of money already and aren't looking to get rich off their ski properties.  Wish Win would have sold SB to another guy like him vs Alterra.  But they just don't exist.  I'm sure Bacon will eventually sell off Taos to Vail or Alterra.

Seems like eventually everything will either be owned by soulless corporate bullshit like Vail or the very few state run places like ORDA ski areas or Cannon and then many more NELSAPed.  

Some of those companies like Vail may eventually fail, but another corporate buyer will be the replacement most likely. Not a Win Smith.

Somebody win Powerball tonight and pry Wildcat back from the greedy evil please.


----------



## NYDB (Aug 25, 2021)

I was thinking that wildcat is kind of trapped at vail now, at least until vail implodes (maybe never?) .   I think it could easily survive and thrive with an owner group not fabulously wealthy but wealthy enough (a la magic) but it’s probably not worth enough for vail to sell It.  its worth more to vail to show  constant expansion than the 20 mill or whatever was offered to buy it.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 25, 2021)

It has been theorized that in Pennsylvania Camelback and now Blue Mountain may be coming soon to Ikon under KSL.
You got the 7S/HV/LM pass in western PA and also now the Indy pass add-on to Montage/Blue Knob/Shawnee all at pretty reasonable prices so there is a bit of competition to Vail in some areas of the state.

and personally Okemo is the least favorite large hill I've been to but it definitely seems to draw the crowds


----------



## abc (Aug 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Folks trippin about low season pass usage rates should spend time at a marina sometime.  Your minds would be blown.  Six figure boats (much higher than that elsewhere from where I boat) five figure slip and maintenance bills annually and some of these boats only leave the docks 3-4 times a summer.


I beg to disagree.

A boat (ok, the 6 figure kind) can be lived on. A “beach front cabin” for mere 6 figure? A steal!

At least that‘s what one of my friend has. I slept over at least one weekend each summer (some summers 2-3 weekends). I quite enjoyed it. When it’s 90+ degrees out? You bet that 6 figure boat feels damn worth every penny!

Do you know how much a “season rental” in beach front neighborhood cost?

Back to skiing. For those “1 week vacation“ people, they’re better off NOT buying a pass, period!  They’ll do even more fabulously if they go to non-Vail properties and ski only less than 4 days. They’ll come out quite far ahead! That’s the part I can’t wrap my head around. 

The whole “subscription” modal are for 1) suckers who paid but no use; 2) people who pay because they’ve already use it regularly. I guess the selfish side of me is happy to see a lot of the type 1 subsidizing my subscription. Still doesn’t make me understand any of those people!


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2021)

PAabe said:


> and personally Okemo is the least favorite large hill I've been to but it definitely seems to draw the crowds


Plop me down on any trail at okemo or the front of mt snow and I couldn’t tell the difference or Stratton to tell the truth.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 25, 2021)

PAabe said:


> and personally Okemo is the least favorite large hill I've been to but it definitely seems to draw the crowds


I agree, but there's also a lot of people that simply enjoy skiing on wide open groomed cruisers all day long. I'm personally easily bored at Okemo, but my brother loves that type of terrain and hates anything ungroomed. Okemo also has the advantage of being closer to the NY metro market than places further north that have more interesting terrain. That extra 1-2+ hours is a deal breaker for many so it isn't at all surprising how appealing it is.


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2021)

Also have friends who love okemo and Bretton woods. We no longer ski together as the will not ski at the places we love as they hate Magic, Cannon, Wildcat and others.


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2021)

One guy from my ski club skis every single weekend at Okemo Thanksgiving-April.  Every weekend.  He'll spend a few days off the groomers is the snow is really deep.  He does the 4 hour Friday night trek from CT and experiences the same fun moments/challenges that group living in a ski house presents.  He was always out the door before me to ensure getting first chair despite the fact that I always drove the extra 15 minutes to Killington.  

In my eyes he's just as dedicated a ski bum as me.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2021)

abc said:


> I beg to disagree.
> 
> A boat (ok, the 6 figure kind) can be lived on. A “beach front cabin” for mere 6 figure? A steal!
> 
> ...




Holy shit ABC

You strike again with your contrarian random anecdotal bullshit about a topic you just proved you know nothing about.  

You honestly should just change your handle on here to:

"I beg to disagree even if I don't know what I'm talking about"

I spent $31k on my 16 year old 25' bowrider.  You can't sleep on it.  My slip, winter storage dues and basic maintenance without anything major going wrong costs me $8k a year.  Huge fuel bills and sweat equity on top of that maintaining the boat. 

My setup is POVERTY on the lake compared to most of my dock neighbors. 

The modern model of my boat costs $150k+ and again, not some cabin cruiser you can sleep on.  Just a very nice 25' bowrider

All around me are people with $150-300k+ boats that they don't sleep on, have higher slip and storage dues than me and use them 4-5 times a season.  

I use mine 30+ times a year.  So even subtracting the boat depreciation cost out of the equation it's about $350 every time I use it. 

Those 4-5 time a season users?  $1500 an outing. 

Those same folks could rent a boat like mine for $800 a day from Goodhues marina.  

Same calculus you are questioning.  Why spend $1k on a full Vail pass for only 4 days of skiing when you could probably pay as you go for $600 if you prebook online?

Answer: It's a one time transactional thing for such people.  They don't even think about the math.  Joe Texas or Florida wants that one visit to the mountains with his family for the winter and just hits send payment on the internet and doesn't care about the cost per day value


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I was thinking that wildcat is kind of trapped at vail now, at least until vail implodes (maybe never?) .   I think it could easily survive and thrive with an owner group not fabulously wealthy but wealthy enough (a la magic) but it’s probably not worth enough for vail to sell It.  its worth more to vail to show  constant expansion than the 20 mill or whatever was offered to buy it.



Unfortunately I think you are right.  Lost leader for Vail.  They'd be more concerned about perceived company turbulence to the shareholders costing more stock value than they'd receive on the sale return


----------



## ss20 (Aug 25, 2021)

Vail stock has slumped a bit from June highs.  Trading around $300 now after hitting the $330s.  

Still kicking myself for not buying in April, lol.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 26, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I was thinking that wildcat is kind of trapped at vail now, at least until vail implodes (maybe never?) .   I think it could easily survive and thrive with an owner group not fabulously wealthy but wealthy enough (a la magic) but it’s probably not worth enough for vail to sell It.  its worth more to vail to show  constant expansion than the 20 mill or whatever was offered to buy it.


Exactly. That's how Les O. started. 
While the GM @ SR,  he "bought" SR from his father in law, because he hated to see mgmt focus all their efforts elsewhere, when he saw huge potential for growth at SR.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Holy shit ABC
> 
> You strike again with your contrarian random anecdotal bullshit about a topic you just proved you know nothing about.
> 
> ...



For perspctive DHS, I grew up as a Wolfeboro Summer kid/young adult until my early 20's, fortunate enough to have grandparents who owned a home in Delings Cove/Springfield Point. My grandfather stored his boats at Goodhue for years. Still have 3 separate family members either living full time in Wolfeboro or own 2nd homes in Wolfeboro.

My Uncle and 1 of my cousins co-own a 22 ft bow rider that they have a slip for in Back Bay in Wolfeboro.  With the water level often being so high this Summer, they actually had to rent one of those $800 a day boats from Goodhue for a big family social weekend earlier this month, because they couldn't get their boat under the bridge and they don't have a trailer for it!  First world, high lake level boating problems there for sure!


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2021)

drjeff said:


> For perspctive DHS, I grew up as a Wolfeboro Summer kid/young adult until my early 20's, fortunate enough to have grandparents who owned a home in Delings Cove/Springfield Point. My grandfather stored his boats at Goodhue for years. Still have 3 separate family members either living full time in Wolfeboro or own 2nd homes in Wolfeboro.
> 
> My Uncle and 1 of my cousins co-own a 22 ft bow rider that they have a slip for in Back Bay in Wolfeboro.  With the water level often being so high this Summer, they actually had to rent one of those $800 a day boats from Goodhue for a big family social weekend earlier this month, because they couldn't get their boat under the bridge and they don't have a trailer for it!  First world, high lake level boating problems there for sure!



It's too bad that bridge is so low and is periodically unpassable.  Back Bay Wolfeboro would be an awesome place to store a boat with all the other activities available near the dock.  

We very much enjoy using Wolfeboro town docks to walk around town and grab lunch.  But it's purely a midweek affair for us as lines to wait for a slip can be 30-60 minutes unless you show up by 10AM.  Not too different than prime chairlifts on weekends at popular ski resorts!


----------



## drjeff (Aug 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It's too bad that bridge is so low and is periodically unpassable.  Back Bay Wolfeboro would be an awesome place to store a boat with all the other activities available near the dock.
> 
> We very much enjoy using Wolfeboro town docks to walk around town and grab lunch.  But it's purely a midweek affair for us as lines to wait for a slip can be 30-60 minutes unless you show up by 10AM.  Not too different than prime chairlifts on weekends at popular ski resorts!



Heck, even on some midweek days the wait at the Wolfeboro town docks can be a while!

Took my wife and kids to Dockside a couple of Monday's ago around 12:30 after we saw my 100yr old Grandmother who still lives in Wolfeboro.  Even on that Monday, there where anywhere from 6 - 8 boats waiting for space to open up.  Total flashbacks for me in my youth waiting for a spot to open up!  Somethings never change, and some things you never forget!


----------



## machski (Aug 26, 2021)

So Vail has announced opening dates at it's resorts.  For Northeast:
Nov 19 Hunter, Stowe, Wildcat, Mount Snow
Nov 20 Okemo
Nov 24 Sunapee
Dec 3 Attitash, Crotched, Jack Frost
Dec 17 Liberty, Big Boulder, Roundtop, Whitetail


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2021)

Vail Resorts Announces Opening Dates Across its North American Resorts as it Gears Up for 2021-22 Season | Vail Resorts Corporate
					





					news.vailresorts.com
				




November 19th is the first day any Eastern Vail areas will open. 


EPIC!!!!!!


----------



## machski (Aug 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail Resorts Announces Opening Dates Across its North American Resorts as it Gears Up for 2021-22 Season | Vail Resorts Corporate
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, with luck I will have many days and weeks already on my Silver NEP!


----------



## slatham (Aug 26, 2021)

machski said:


> So Vail has announced opening dates at it's resorts.  For Northeast:
> Nov 19 Hunter, Stowe, Wildcat, Mount Snow
> Nov 20 Okemo
> Nov 24 Sunapee
> ...



That Mt Snow target opening tells you all you need to know about Vails commitment to run areas as they have been operated historically. They don't give a dam.


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## thebigo (Aug 26, 2021)

machski said:


> Yup, with luck I will have many days and weeks already on my Silver NEP!



Veterans day falls on a thursday this year. Kids have a four day weekend and Vail is not even going to try to get a single location in the east open.

Could not be happier to have a boyne pass this year instead of vail after reading those dates. Hoping for a good long four day weekend at SR or SL. Will be glad to give boyne our lodging and F/B dollars.


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 26, 2021)

Forums will be annoyed with this from Vail I not surprised at all but I agree they sucks Ass big time:
"""NEWS: Vail Resorts Announces Opening Dates, Abandons Early Season Skiing and Riding in The Northeast, Closing Dates No Longer Projected
Vail Resorts has announced their opening dates for all 34 of their North American Resorts.  In the Northeast the big change this season is that Mount Snow and Wildcat are no longer slated to attempt a early opening, nor is Okemo which formerly was also one of the resorts to open as soon as possible.
Nov. 19: Hunter (NY), Mt. Snow (VT), Stowe (VT), Wildcat (NH)
Nov. 20: Okemo (VT)
Nov. 24: Mt. Sunapee (NH)
Dec. 3: Attitash (NH), Crotched (NH), Jack Frost (PA)
Dec. 17: Big Boulder (PA), Liberty (PA), Roundtop (PA), Whitetail (PA)

The other notable changes from last season include moving Roundtop one week later, which shortens the potential season in SE-PA, and Jack Frost is switching places with Big Boulder for which one opens first.  There will only be one Vail resort in PA open this season prior to December 17th.

These dates are projections and subject to change based on conditions, however they do not generally open earlier than their projections.

Unlike in the recent past, Vail Resorts did not list the projected closing dates at their resorts at this time.""".


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I agree. They very well may neglect those areas and run them as lean as possible, but they're not stupid enough to think that if they closed the eastern resorts they could simply get enough of those people to go west to make up for the lost revenue generated by the eastern areas.
> 
> Are there any stats anywhere on how many people ski exclusively in the east vs travel west at least once a season? I'm sure Vail has data from their own resorts on this subject, but it would be interesting numbers to know overall. I'd bet far more people ski the east exclusively vs travel to multiple regions every year.
> 
> ...



The whole idea of acquiring eastern resorts is to build a following that may travel to key resorts and spend dollars there.  If someone skis a mountain local to them and wants to plan a trip, they will probably go with their pass.  Closing a resort, just makes people look else where.  So maintaining the local resort os kind of like a sales budget,

Personally I do not have an issue with Vail - been with Epic for 6 years.  What I have skied on the pass has had excellent snow, excellent quantity, great variety.  Then again, i only skied Colorado resorts and PC.  I will be skiing NE this year so that may change my perspective.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 26, 2021)

I have a different perspective.  The masses only ski from Thanksgiving weekend to mid-April.  It’s hard to justify a longer season during a pandemic for that small amount of customers who are going to log 50+ midwinter days.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 26, 2021)

The "masses" only ski for about 8 weeks total. Approx Dec 20ish-Feb 20ish.
Something like 85% of revenue is in that window

 95% is Xmas week, Feb vac week and MLK weekend


----------



## Geoff (Aug 26, 2021)

Dr Jeff:   What’s the usual Mount Snow trail rollout schedule in November?  I haven’t been there since the Les Otten years.   I recall they have a jillion fan guns so they can blow trails in parallel.  I’d be midweek-only.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Veterans day falls on a thursday this year. Kids have a four day weekend and Vail is not even going to try to get a single location in the east open.
> 
> Could not be happier to have a boyne pass this year instead of vail after reading those dates. Hoping for a good long four day weekend at SR or SL. Will be glad to give boyne our lodging and F/B dollars.



How many non vail resorts do you think will be open on November 11th.  Killington, SR - yes Wildcat used to go for it but they seem to set dates that ensure opening and staying open.  Killington on the other hand will open and if it warms up they will close then make snow SR is in the same boat  Targeting Nov 11 is a loss leader potentially.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The "masses" only ski for about 8 weeks total. Approx Dec 20ish-Feb 20ish.
> Something like 95% of revenue is in that window


My perspective is 3+ decades at Killington.  The parking lots are overflowing on Thanksgiving Saturday.   March is really busy.  It tails off a couple weeks into April. That’s a western fly-to destination resort curve.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> How many non vail resorts do you think will be open on November 11th.  Killington, SR - yes Wildcat used to go for it but they seem to set dates that ensure opening and staying open.  Killington on the other hand will open and if it warms up they will close then make snow SR is in the same boat  Targeting Nov 11 is a loss leader potentially.


With the pandemic last year, Killington didn’t open with the upper mountain and the stairway with K1 download.   They opened later with top to bottom.   I’d expect the same this year.  They would only close if lower Bunny melted out.  SR has the midstation so they can open early.


----------



## Harvey (Aug 26, 2021)

FWIW RE the people who don't hit the "breakeven" on any pass. (They call it "breakage" I think.)

Without breakage all passes would be more expensive.  So don't hose on those peeps.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 26, 2021)

^for sure. i love every ikon pass holder who only skis 4 days like a dope


----------



## PAabe (Aug 26, 2021)

Switching Jackson Frost and Big Boulder is kinda silly since Big Boulder is the highest ski area in east pa iirc and the entirety of it is higher than JF

Historically BB was known for long season since it is relatively easier to cover in snow - lots of lift deferred maintenance and removal there under vail also


----------



## machski (Aug 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> How many non vail resorts do you think will be open on November 11th.  Killington, SR - yes Wildcat used to go for it but they seem to set dates that ensure opening and staying open.  Killington on the other hand will open and if it warms up they will close then make snow SR is in the same boat  Targeting Nov 11 is a loss leader potentially.


In a normal year (non Covid) with seasonable temps, add to that Loon, Bretton Woods, possibly Sugarloaf too.  The list would have been bigger of not for Vail.  Sure, there is a chance the real early push areas (K and SR) could see a big thaw and shut to reopen later.  It is also possible they manage to stay open with a second week November thaw and Vail resorts cannot open by their planned dates too.

As to SR, they did not use the Locke midstation last year due to Covid and Brian Heon has mentioned he would consider not using it moving forward.  I think if SR does that, many would want heads to roll.  Guess we will see in a few months.  I think the stairs are back in play at Killington this season.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 26, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Dr Jeff:   What’s the usual Mount Snow trail rollout schedule in November?  I haven’t been there since the Les Otten years.   I recall they have a jillion fan guns so they can blow trails in parallel.  I’d be midweek-only.


Since they finished the West Lake Snowmaking project a few years ago, IF Mother nature is feeling cooperative with a decent window, Cascade/Canyon, Long John top to bottom, Gulch at Carinthia, River Run and Freefall on the Northface plus the Discovery learning area is their goal for opening. Hasn't always happened though (sometimes the Northface is delayed, last year it was Carinthia). 

In the past they talked about Ridge and Snowdance as well for opening with their added pumping capacity... hasn't happened yet though..

With a planned November 19th opening this year, if Mother Nature gets cooperative from say November 7-10 and beyond, who knows what they could have open, as they certainly can pump the water to get a bunch of trails going quickly!


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## ss20 (Aug 26, 2021)

Jiminy Peak and Wachusett also almost always open before Veteran's Day.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2021)

If Vegas had a line on, _"Opening Jack Frost by December 3rd"_, I'd go all in on the Over.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2021)

PAabe said:


> *Switching Jackson Frost and Big Boulder is kinda silly since Big Boulder is the highest ski area in east pa iirc and the entirety of it is higher than JF
> 
> Historically BB was known for long season since it is relatively easier to cover in snow* - lots of lift deferred maintenance and removal there under vail also



Dont you get it?  

 You CAN possibly open Big Boulder early, but it's almost certain Jack Frost wont be able to open early.  By switching them, Vail gets to keep BOTH of them closed & act like it's just so, so, so very unfortunate.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2021)

*New Vail Resorts Eastern opening 2026 schedule* (probably)*:*

All Eastern properties open February 1st (to push people to higher margin western resorts November - January 31.


----------



## NYDB (Aug 27, 2021)

I could easily see Vail going to 4 or 5 day / week operating schedules with the smaller skier visit mountains.  Its not like it would make a dent in their pass sale numbers.


----------



## gittist (Aug 27, 2021)

Harvey said:


> FWIW RE the people who don't hit the "breakeven" on any pass. (They call it "breakage" I think.)
> 
> Without breakage all passes would be more expensive.  So don't hose on those peeps.



I agree that we shoudln't hose the peeps b/c they finance the rest of us


----------



## gittist (Aug 27, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Switching Jackson Frost and Big Boulder is kinda silly since Big Boulder is the highest ski area in east pa iirc and the entirety of it is higher than JF
> 
> Historically BB was known for long season since it is relatively easier to cover in snow - lots of lift deferred maintenance and removal there under vail also





BenedictGomez said:


> Dont you get it?
> 
> You CAN possibly open Big Boulder early, but it's almost certain Jack Frost wont be able to open early.  By switching them, Vail gets to keep BOTH of them closed & act like it's just so, so, so very unfortunate.




If memory serves me correctly BB always opened before JF but was limited to nights and/or weekends only.  During the full season JF was open during the day (no lights) and BB was only open nights.

I agree that Vail may be planning to fail but I hope that they actually pull off opening JF on schedule b/c I'm a day skier. Skiing BB and driving home puts me way past my bed time .


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> *I agree that Vail may be planning to fail but I hope that they actually pull off opening JF on schedule*



It's possible both will be true.  Like maybe they'll "open" the park at JF and that's it just to say it's open.  My 2nd guess is that my Machiavellian idea that Vail did this intentionally to 100% on-point just to keep both closed.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Since they finished the West Lake Snowmaking project a few years ago, IF Mother nature is feeling cooperative with a decent window, Cascade/Canyon, Long John top to bottom, Gulch at Carinthia, River Run and Freefall on the Northface plus the Discovery learning area is their goal for opening. Hasn't always happened though (sometimes the Northface is delayed, last year it was Carinthia).
> 
> In the past they talked about Ridge and Snowdance as well for opening with their added pumping capacity... hasn't happened yet though..
> 
> With a planned November 19th opening this year, if Mother Nature gets cooperative from say November 7-10 and beyond, who knows what they could have open, as they certainly can pump the water to get a bunch of trails going quickly!


Is that all fan guns so the limit is water pump capacity?   I’m used to compressed air at near freezing temperatures being the limiting factor.


----------



## jaytrem (Aug 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Is that all fan guns so the limit is water pump capacity?   I’m used to compressed air at near freezing temperatures being the limiting factor.


Not on Freefall, River Run, top of Long John and top of Cascade.  I'd guess about 80% fan guns.


----------



## abc (Aug 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You strike again with your contrarian random anecdotal bullshit about a topic you just proved you know nothing about.


And YOU, know everything but only in your own little corner. And think the world is just like you and your 2 neighbors. 

Everyone who has seen more of the world are just contrarians purposely bursting your “I know everything” bubble.


----------



## Geoff (Aug 30, 2021)

abc said:


> And YOU, know everything but only in your own little corner. And think the world is just like you and your 2 neighbors.
> 
> Everyone who has seen more of the world are just contrarians purposely bursting your “I know everything” bubble.


I don’t see what’s contrarian about a boat you can sleep on.  My harbor is stuffed full of them.   A basic 35’ to 40’ sailboat in my harbor probably has a $20k to $25k per year operating cost.  If you DIY as much as possible and store in your yard, maybe $10k.  Not particularly different from a condo and pass/equipment costs at a ski resort.  You can also be part of the Bayliner Navy at the town landing in my harbor and do it for ~ $1,000/year or buy your season pass and day trip with a peanut butter & jelly sandwich in your pocket for similar money.  

I imagine Vail doesn’t care about the Wildcat day trip peanut butter & jelly market since it’s not profitable.  They care about the big spenders at their destination resorts who generate all the profits.


----------



## gittist (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm sorry and I apologize because this whole Vail thing is my fault. Vail bought Peak Resorts a few months after I told my wife that I wished Vail would buy Jack Frost so I could use my Epic pass there.   I hope they buy Killington next .


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 30, 2021)

gittist said:


> I'm sorry and I apologize because this whole Vail thing is my fault. Vail bought Peak Resorts a few months after I told my wife that I wished Vail would buy Jack Frost so I could use my Epic pass there.   I hope they buy Killington next .


You are evil


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 30, 2021)

gittist said:


> I hope they buy Killington next .


I wouldn't advertise that wish...


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 30, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I don’t see what’s contrarian about a boat you can sleep on.  My harbor is stuffed full of them.   A basic 35’ to 40’ sailboat in my harbor probably has a $20k to $25k per year operating cost.  If you DIY as much as possible and store in your yard, maybe $10k.  Not particularly different from a condo and pass/equipment costs at a ski resort.  You can also be part of the Bayliner Navy at the town landing in my harbor and do it for ~ $1,000/year or buy your season pass and day trip with a peanut butter & jelly sandwich in your pocket for similar money.
> 
> I imagine Vail doesn’t care about the Wildcat day trip peanut butter & jelly market since it’s not profitable.  They care about the big spenders at their destination resorts who generate all the profits.



Bingo, 

Exactly my point.  There are people who spend that kinda dough and use their boats only a handful of days a year.  4 figures per outing.  They don't think about that cost per day.

Same difference with season ski passes.  People seem incredulous to the idea that some people buy an Epic pass and use it only 3-4 days per season.  Many do whether it's a good financial decision or not.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 30, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Is that all fan guns so the limit is water pump capacity?   I’m used to compressed air at near freezing temperatures being the limiting factor.



Yup, Mount Snow now, the vast majority of the time that they're making snow, *if* there is a limiting factor, it's much more likely to be how much water they can pump vs how much air they have for the system.

And even now, since all of the air/water guns are low-e HKD's and Snow Logic's, they can simultaneosuly run on as many, if not more air/water trails as they used too, even though they no longer bring in any outside rental air compresors.


----------



## abc (Aug 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Bingo,
> 
> Exactly my point.  There are people who spend that kinda dough and use their boats only a handful of days a year.  4 figures per outing.  They don't think about that cost per day.
> 
> Same difference with season ski passes.  People seem incredulous to the idea that some people buy an Epic pass and use it only 3-4 days per season.  Many do whether it's a good financial decision or not.


Nope, you completely missed the point. 

A boat that can be slept on are "used" many more days than the 3-4 times they're out of the harbor! Totally reasonable once you add the days the boat is used as a "water front condo". 

But can you sleep on your ski pass when you're not skiing it?


----------



## Geoff (Aug 31, 2021)

abc said:


> Nope, you completely missed the point.
> 
> A boat that can be slept on are "used" many more days than the 3-4 times they're out of the harbor! Totally reasonable once you add the days the boat is used as a "water front condo".
> 
> But can you sleep on your ski pass when you're not skiing it?


I’m sure I’ve slept on my season pass more’n once after a bar crawl.  

I think the better comparison is a ski condo.  I owned one at Killington for 28 years.   The ownership costs and season passes are sunk costs just like my excise taxes, insurance, boat yard bills, dinghy float bill, town waterways & mooring permit, and the mooring winter storm stick & inspection fee.  I’ve had winters where I got really busy or had an injury where I wasn’t in Vermont much.   Ditto for the boat.  The cost per day number in those years isn’t something I’d want to calculate.

I don’t know about you guys but the season pass price is lost in the noise.   When I was an every weekender in a share house, automobile was my biggest expense.  Bar tab probably a close second.  Even buying things on sale in May, I imagine equipment cost more than my pass most years.  I look at it that I have one very expensive first run and then the pass cost is already spent.


----------



## Whitey (Sep 1, 2021)

Crotched and Wildcat GMs gone, "left the company".   Positions posted. . . .


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2021)

considering how Wildcat was run perhaps that's not a bad thing.  trying to find someone to run a ski resort at this time of the year is not a good thing though...

UNLESS!  they come to this site and recruit one of us!   I feel confident many here could run it better with limited GM knowledge.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2021)

Perfect timing!


----------



## drjeff (Sep 1, 2021)

With the multiple levels of corporate management Vail has in the East, worst case I am guessing one of their "Senior Eastern Resort Coordinators in charge of Equity and Diversity in the Snow Surfaces, Food and Beverage, and paid parking departments to ensure a World Class experience everyday" people might be able to create a sub committee which will then seek approval from corporate HR in Broomfield to create another sub committeee to study whether a the title of General Manager has any sub contextual meaning that would draw the ire of the woke crowd, the vast majority of whom likely have never skied or ridden a day in their lives, who will eventually determine a proper candidate to oversee the operation of both resorts at some point in the future....

In the mean time there's probably multiple current employees, who when not "handcuffed" by some of the Vail management decisions could do the job, and very well starting any day now.....


----------



## thebigo (Sep 1, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Crotched and Wildcat GMs gone, "left the company".   Positions posted. . . .



The Crotched GM used to host a kickoff for seasonal competitive programs in the Onset. He always came across as competent and engaged, it will undoubtedly be a loss for the mountain and community but I am sure he will land on his feet elsewhere in the industry. As for the wildcat GM? Not sure he is capable of shagging carts at Grants.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 1, 2021)

They have a wealth of underexperinced incompetent, delusional people that will be happy to "step up". 

Crotched was honestly well run and I had good sessions there last winter. That's probably going to be a big loss. Wildcat hopefully hit rock bottom last year...god I hope that was rock bottom!


----------



## thebigo (Sep 1, 2021)

Per linkedin, the former wildcat GM has taken a job as the director of finance and operations for GMVS. 



			https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-klevans-a85bb982


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## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2021)

The attitash gm will be the gm of both places. They already share snow making employees between them. Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday. Blame it on lack of staff. 
crotched and Sunapee will share a gm. Crotched wilL only be open Friday through Monday.


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The attitash gm will be the gm of both places. They already share snow making employees between them. Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday. Blame it on lack of staff.
> crotched and Sunapee will share a gm. Crotched wilL only be open Friday through Monday.


If that's true, then a giant HOLY SH$T!!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2021)

lol. no way.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 1, 2021)

I thought the attitash guy was worse than the wildcat gm iirc?  Isn't it some 30yo punk kid they promoted?


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## snoseek (Sep 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The attitash gm will be the gm of both places. They already share snow making employees between them. Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday. Blame it on lack of staff.
> crotched and Sunapee will share a gm. Crotched wilL only be open Friday through Monday.


You sound like a good fit for a northeast operations. Way to cut cost.

In all seriousness does Vail operate any resorts that aren't 7 days?


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## NYDB (Sep 1, 2021)

snoseek said:


> You sound like a good fit for a northeast operations. Way to cut cost.
> 
> In all seriousness does Vail operate any resorts that aren't 7 days?


I think a couple of the PA mountains are only open 4 or 5 days.  Could be mistaken.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The attitash gm will be the gm of both places. They already share snow making employees between them. Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday. Blame it on lack of staff.
> crotched and Sunapee will share a gm. Crotched wilL only be open Friday through Monday.



To be honest, regional GMs like that given those resorts business levels and geographic proximity makes sense. IF they are good GMs.  I'd rather they take that approach and invest the second GMs salary in lift and snowmaking personnel.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> I think a couple of the PA mountains are only open 4 or 5 days.  Could be mistaken.


they are all open 7 days a week at night but night operations have been curtailed.  I am told that we are getting 2 nights back at Roundtop so they will only be closed Mon-Tue nights


----------



## PAabe (Sep 1, 2021)

Vail has stated that they are trying to get people to ski when it is not crowded and then they go and close the places for most of the week and curtail night skiing...
They still have to make a similar amount of snow unlike early and late season which takes some effort in that regard

to be fair I would imagine the mon/tues night crowd is pretty minimal and mostly passholders in most cases


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2021)

yes I know that Monday and Tuesday at Roundtop were in the red.  thankfully there is enough useage during the day to justify keeping the places open until 6


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 1, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Crotched and Wildcat GMs gone, "left the company".   Positions posted. . . .


Can't say that I blame them....
  When Brian H went over to SR I knew we were in trouble...
New guy was way inexperienced and lasted what,  1 maybe 2 years....

They've called me twice so far.
The answer is NO, definitely not working for Vail !

How about all the MWV locals who bought a MidWeek pass ?? 
I'd definitely be asking for a refund...


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2021)

What would weigh on me is whether or not I wanted to put up with another season without foreign help.   Being understaffed just wears you down.  One of my best friends has been the GM of one of the highest grossing independent restaurants in VT for 15 years.  He threw in the towel this summer.  Just exhausted because of low staffing.  Moving on to something else.


----------



## skiur (Sep 1, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> considering how Wildcat was run perhaps that's not a bad thing.  trying to find someone to run a ski resort at this time of the year is not a good thing though...
> 
> UNLESS!  they come to this site and recruit one of us!   I feel confident many here could run it better with limited GM knowledge.



I doubt the problem at wildcat was the GM, you really think he didn't want to make snow?  That wasn't an easy coast decision.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What would weigh on me is whether or not I wanted to put up with another season without foreign help.   Being understaffed just wears you down.  One of my best friends has been the GM of one of the highest grossing independent restaurants in VT for 15 years.  He threw in the towel this summer.  Just exhausted because of low staffing.  Moving on to something else.


What happened with the foreign help? Thought it was back on this winter?


----------



## Geoff (Sep 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Per linkedin, the former wildcat GM has taken a job as the director of finance and operations for GMVS.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-klevans-a85bb982


So a former Stowe guy moved back to Vermont after doing a year at Wildcat.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail has stated that they are trying to get people to ski when it is not crowded and then they go and close the places for most



Less skiing = More money.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> *They've called me twice so far.
> The answer is NO, definitely not working for Vail !*


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 2, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> What happened with the foreign help? Thought it was back on this winter?



If it was then the Delta variant as well as others will shut that shit down.  Look at what EU is doing!


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2021)

Yeah, nothing official, but I highly doubt we see foreign help in any real meaningful numbers.  Two years ago, some of these young workers got trapped in this country for weeks to months.  

If I had college aged kids looking to work overseas there's no way I'd be supportive of them working or traveling overseas for an extended period of time the way things are still going with Covid.  Too many unknowns still.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 2, 2021)

Most institutions have shut down their Study Abroad opportunities for this year..

For the coming 21/22 season looks like Austria is about to limit skiing to only visitors from Switzerland, France & Italy - OUCH !!!!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2021)

speaking of austria, ikon added kitzbuhel and dolomiti superski (italia). cool.

i went to some part of dolomiti for women's slalom in the 2006 turin games. i was very drunk. i have no idea where I was. i didn't ski. didn't have gear or clothes for skiing during study abroad. a fail. but attending the winter Olympics in Italy was a major win. highlights were that skiing event, Canada v Switzerland men's hockey (2-0 swiss, with swiss goalie martin gerber saving 58 shots from the Canadian national team), and Sweden v. Russia hockey (Lundqvist v ovechkin - epic - ovechkin lit up hank with a hat trick, but hank went on to take gold with the swedes), and seeing Jamiroquai in a big public concert in an Italian piazza


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> speaking of austria, ikon added kitzbuhel and dolomiti superski (italia). cool.
> 
> i went to some part of dolomiti for women's slalom in the 2006 turin games. i was very drunk. i have no idea where I was. i didn't ski. didn't have gear or clothes for skiing during study abroad. a fail. but attending the winter Olympics in Italy was a major win. highlights were that skiing event, Canada v Switzerland men's hockey (2-0 swiss, with swiss goalie martin gerber saving 58 shots from the Canadian national team), and Sweden v. Russia hockey (Lundqvist v ovechkin - epic - ovechkin lit up hank with a hat trick, but hank went on to take gold with the swedes), and seeing Jamiroquai in a big public concert in an Italian piazza



Well Ikon is starting to catch up to Vail!


----------



## gittist (Sep 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday.


Where did you hear this?  I really hope it doesn't happen!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Canada v Switzerland men's hockey (2-0 swiss, with swiss goalie martin gerber saving 58 shots from the Canadian national team).



I remember watching that game live & having a schadenfreude boner. Surprised those tickets werent ridiculously expensive.


----------



## machski (Sep 2, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Well Ikon is starting to catch up to Vail!


To some extent, Ikon has now passed Epic.  To ski Europe on Epic, you have to have a full pass and restrictions vary all over the place between resorts.  With Ikon, all three Euro resorts are valid on the full Ikon (7 unlimited days each) or the base pass (5 days each).


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Yup, Mount Snow now, the vast majority of the time that they're making snow, *if* there is a limiting factor, it's much more likely to be how much water they can pump vs how much air they have for the system.
> 
> And even now, since all of the air/water guns are low-e HKD's and Snow Logic's, they can simultaneosuly run on as many, if not more air/water trails as they used too, even though they no longer bring in any outside rental air compresors.



Mount Snow still has a ton of air with that new air plant they built on Drop. Also Geoff, compressed air is nowhere near freezing, it has to be cooled either via an after cooler directly on the compressors or cooling towers if not equipped. The pipes are warm to the touch if you use your bare hand, especially on diesel produced air, that runs extremely hot. You can send it up the hill hot but it won't efficiently convert water. Send it too cold the lines will freeze. 40s is the ideal...

Unfortunately Attitash and Wildcat are a lost cause under Vail. It started with the Exodus of Attitash's highly skilled Snow Surface manager a year after Vail took over because he couldn't deal with Vail's shit and the GM was a yes man. Then Heon left and they've gone through GMs like hot cakes. 3 of these ex-Peak guys are not happily working for Boyne or directly for Sunday River. They treat their employees better and they're investing in the hill.

I don't know how anyone could support Vail given what they're doing. I only hope they decide to sell off the underperformed properties.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2021)

Losing Patrick in MTN ops at Wildcat was a huge loss too.  Pretty certain he moved over to Sugarbush. 

I hope they sell off at least Wildcat, but I doubt it happens.  My guess is the number of long time supporters of Wildcat like myself who are voting with their wallet and heart and skiing elsewhere are more than made up for by folks lured in by cheap passes.  

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the state own Wildcat to pair up with Cannon.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Sep 3, 2021)

Attitash is a very strange situation. Folks have been gobbling up trailside condos for $650k that would have sold for $450k 3-4 years ago. Several of them are gutted down to the studs.

I would assume that these are educated buyers. Do they know something that we don’t?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 3, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I remember watching that game live & having a schadenfreude boner. Surprised those tickets werent ridiculously expensive.



i dont remember exactly how much everything cost, but I do remember it all being pretty affordable for a bunch of 20 year old college kids. we were studying in rome. the biggest issue we experienced for the olympics was not booking accommodation until late, we ended up in a suburb a solid 45 by train from turin. the hockey games were probably like $100 each. the whole thing is a blur. amazing experience tho. wayne gretzky was the gm of that Canada team and he was lording over that swiss game in a box and he looked fucking pissed off lol


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash is a very strange situation. Folks have been gobbling up trailside condos for $650k that would have sold for $450k 3-4 years ago. Several of them are gutted down to the studs.
> 
> I would assume that these are educated buyers. Do they know something that we don’t?



I think it's purely a function of the pandemic creating more of a premium for slopeside lodging than ever before.  

If I could afford it, I'd be all about it.  The benefits of being able to boot up at home and ski home for lunch vs tailgating in the parking lot or eating some of the most overpriced and low quality food I've ever ate in a ski lodge would be highly desirable to me.

Last year the food quality at Vails NH mountains was God awful.  WAY worse than the year prior.  A friend who worked in senior leadership at Vail corporate last season said it was a function of cost containment due to the pandemic.  So, perhaps it improves this year.


----------



## urungus (Sep 3, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Last year the food quality at Vails NH mountains was God awful.  WAY worse than the year prior.  A friend who worked in senior leadership at Vail corporate last season said it was a function of cost containment due to the pandemic.  So, perhaps it improves this year.



In my experience, when there is ”cost containment” - in any industry - because of recession, pandemic, etc., the cutbacks are rarely restored once things improve.  Instead it becomes the “new normal”


----------



## snoseek (Sep 3, 2021)

The trick if you go epic is dont give them a fucking dime at the lodge or shops. If Corona retaught me anything is that parking lot beer are the best beers


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 3, 2021)

exactly  don't give them another dime and use your pass as much as possible.   

Also Parking Lot Beers are the best!


----------



## drjeff (Sep 3, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash is a very strange situation. Folks have been gobbling up trailside condos for $650k that would have sold for $450k 3-4 years ago. Several of them are gutted down to the studs.
> 
> I would assume that these are educated buyers. Do they know something that we don’t?


More like panic buying with a Utopian dream of a steady, lucrative short term rental income is more likely.

A bunch of my Mount Snow friends are currently laughing at what is likely a similar scenario. Newly bought within the COVID buying surge, not even slopeside, but about 3/4ths a mile from the Carinthia base lodge, 4br/3bath roughly 3200 square ft 3 floor townhome in a nice development with full healthclub/indoor pool on property.

Looking for a "full" seasonal rental - which is the last week of December through the 2nd week of April in the owners eyes. Owners take back 2 non holiday weekends, and they're looking for 48k for the full "season" rental!! Absolutely insane!


----------



## snoseek (Sep 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> More like panic buying with a Utopian dream of a steady, lucrative short term rental income is more likely.
> 
> A bunch of my Mount Snow friends are currently laughing at what is likely a similar scenario. Newly bought within the COVID buying surge, not even slopeside, but about 3/4ths a mile from the Carinthia base lodge, 4br/3bath roughly 3200 square ft 3 floor townhome in a nice development with full healthclub/indoor pool on property.
> 
> Looking for a "full" seasonal rental - which is the last week of December through the 2nd week of April in the owners eyes. Owners take back 2 non holiday weekends, and they're looking for 48k for the full "season" rental!! Absolutely insane!


In a couple years I think it will be downright delusional!


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 4, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash is a very strange situation. Folks have been gobbling up trailside condos for $650k that would have sold for $450k 3-4 years ago. Several of them are gutted down to the studs.
> 
> I would assume that these are educated buyers. Do they know something that we don’t?




Thats the real estate market these days in many areas.   People are grossly overpaying and in some cases waving the inspections and/or buying online sight unseen.   Crazy.   If you owned multiple homes right now and could move to one full time you could make a killing


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 4, 2021)

That’s what we’re looking at in 4-5 years. If only we could make it work now…


----------



## Mum skier (Sep 4, 2021)

If Wildcat, Attitash and Crotched are only open part time in the weekdays it seems that’s a significant enough change that anyone with a Northeast or especially a mid week north east pass should be given the option to cancel their pass.


----------



## Edd (Sep 4, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> If Wildcat, Attitash and Crotched are only open part time in the weekdays it seems that’s a significant enough change that anyone with a Northeast or especially a mid week north east pass should be given the option to cancel their pass.


That’s when I’d snap and bail.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Sep 4, 2021)

I just signed up for a mid week north east pass at the senior rate. I am a Magic Mountain pass holder but I am not going to work this winter. Step one for a ski bum is passes. That gets me M, Tu, W, early season and Stowe. My house is halfway between Okemo and Sunapee. Plus I can meet friends on weekdays instead of dragging them to Magic. Early season at Okemo, Sunapee and Mt. Snow. Plus maybe a week or two at the tail of the season. Can't lose for $271. Stoked.


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The attitash gm will be the gm of both places. They already share snow making employees between them. Wildcat with be open 3 days a week and attitash 4. Neither open on Wednesday. Blame it on lack of staff.
> crotched and Sunapee will share a gm. Crotched wilL only be open Friday through Monday.


Do you have a source for this information that you can share?


----------



## snoseek (Sep 6, 2021)

joshua segal said:


> Do you have a source for this information that you can share?


Hes joking. Or at least half joking. They offer a northeast midweek anyhow so I think at the very least 7 day operations are happening. They will probably hack stuff like snowmaking.. like I've said I'm hoping last year was rock bottom.


----------



## skef (Sep 6, 2021)

snoseek said:


> [...] I'm hoping last year was rock bottom.


Says everyone every year since 2017.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 6, 2021)

skef said:


> Says everyone every year since 2017.



2019

That's when Vail bought it.  They did okay, not great their first season.  Then we had last year's mess.  Even a return to 2019-2020 would not be as good (at least at Wildcat) as how Peak ran the place.  They were trending upwards in their management of the place ever since the snowmaking upgrades in 2014-2015.  At least as far as the amount of acreage they made snow on and being aggressive for an early November opening.  2019-2020 took a step back once Vail was in charge.


----------



## Harvey (Sep 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> would not be as good (at least at Wildcat) as how Peak ran the place


free drugs?


----------



## RichT (Sep 9, 2021)

So Hunter/Vail was really pushing for sale these past couple days. Did anyone else notice that the website or facebook for hunter is completely "Ghosted"? No one question answered, camera's are down and nobody answers the phone. Yet they want us to plop down over $500 per, without any info. Crazy why to run a business! Vails facebook page has comments from Vail it's self on it. BTW they have implemented masks indoors now.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 9, 2021)

RichT said:


> So Hunter/Vail was really pushing for sale these past couple days. Did anyone else notice that the website or facebook for hunter is completely "Ghosted"? No one question answered, camera's are down and nobody answers the phone. Yet they want us to plop down over $500 per, without any info. Crazy why to run a business! Vails facebook page has comments from Vail it's self on it. BTW they have implemented masks indoors now.



That is because the September 6th date was fast approaching and they always get a boatload of people to buy before the price goes up.  All ski areas do that - not uncommon.  As far as Hunters site it looks to be live and well for me.  If you want info - go to https://www.epicpass.com/ BTW that price has gone up just a tad,  Hunters facebook site did have a link to the same website I pointed out more or less just embedded into Hunters website.


----------



## p_levert (Sep 9, 2021)

The price increase was very minimal:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435665214951890944
Vail is seriously undercutting Ikon on price, not sure that it's a good strategy.  And no money left over for the NE resorts...


----------



## cdskier (Sep 9, 2021)

Those are some surprisingly low increases. Did they not hit the numbers they were hoping for? So they're trying to keep the increases lower to encourage more purchases?


----------



## p_levert (Sep 9, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Those are some surprisingly low increases. Did they not hit the numbers they were hoping for? So they're trying to keep the increases lower to encourage more purchases?


Very minimal, about as much as the bullshit fee that Indy tacks on when you buy the pass


----------



## ss20 (Sep 9, 2021)

Stock price has been on the decline for a few months and they need some good numbers to turn it around I bet.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2021)

Vail canceled Octoberfest at Hunter.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Stock price has been on the decline for a few months and they need some good numbers to turn it around I bet.


Thats going to backfire in 2022 if even more people witness a repeat of last season in some of their ski areas.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 9, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Thats going to backfire in 2022 if even more people witness a repeat of last season in some of their ski areas.



I completely agree. 

Vail has been out of properties to buy for a few seasons now.  Theyve wayyyy oversold their epic passes and people are tired of crappy experiences.  And now people have viable alternatives with the Ikon pass and Indy pass.

I have no clue what Vails next move is.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 9, 2021)

Queue BG in 3...2...


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> Vail has been out of properties to buy for a few seasons now.  Theyve wayyyy oversold their epic passes and people are tired of crappy experiences.  And now people have viable alternatives with the Ikon pass and Indy pass.
> 
> I have no clue what Vails next move is.



Their plan is to continue to undercut and take as much Ikon business as possible.   They have a lot more control over the pricing of their passes than Ikon does.


----------



## gittist (Sep 9, 2021)

If Vail puts out another BOHICA year I am going to buy IKON for next year even if it means I have to travel 6 hours to ski.  I tell my wife that I'd rather have one good steak than 10 lousy healthy steaks.  The same for ski areas.

I wonder if Vail management (like Katz) reads this forum?


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Their plan is to continue to undercut and take as much Ikon business as possible.   They have a lot more control over the pricing of their passes than Ikon does.


I completely agree, I just don’t see that as sustainable at all for more than a couple seasons. It especially sucks for the regulars of the mountains that get the scrooge mcduck treatment.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 9, 2021)

gittist said:


> I wonder if Vail management (like Katz) reads this forum?


Rob Katz or anyone else with any influence at Vail couldn't give 2 shits what you or anyone else who buys a pass think.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 9, 2021)

Amazingly Vail sucks more with each passing day.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2021)

snoseek said:


> In a couple years I think it will be downright delusional!



It's delusional now.  In a couple years (maybe sooner) there will be a LOT of buyer's remorse.  I've read R.E. agents already confident people buying today will soon be underwater.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Queue BG in 3...2...



Cost cutting & increased debt servicing.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 10, 2021)

lol @ vail executives reading a niche board for eastern skiing with 50 active posters. we're lucky geoff and win read here.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 10, 2021)

What do you mean, Rob Katz definitely spends his free time surfing niche internet skiing forums.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Sep 10, 2021)

BG, curious where I might find this reading? Is it more forum based opinions or industry articles citing subject matter experts? Honestly interested in learning more about this perspective, specifically what event(s) is going to create a loss for buyers directly attributable to Vail missteps vs a general correction on RE coming out of the housing fervor in general.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> BG, curious where I might find this reading? Is it more forum based opinions or industry articles citing subject matter experts?


I have a TWTR account solely dedicated to finance/economics & I follow some industry peeps.  One guy does a nationwide survey each month & posts R.E. agent thoughts from around the country.  For instance, in his most recent one he focused on how supply disruption is leading to increased build times of new housing units (windows, cabinets, doors, garage doors are REALLY hard to procure right now) causing delays.  Anyway, the concern that we may be near the top was a common one from last month.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 11, 2021)

Pretty much all building materials are very hard to procure right now with long and variable lead times.  And with the rising costs of materials it is hard to get a contractor to hold their original price.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Those are some surprisingly low increases. Did they not hit the numbers they were hoping for? So they're trying to keep the increases lower to encourage more purchases?



We have had the Epic Pass for 6 years now and they pull the same stunt every year.  They broadcast out that pass prices are going to increase, panic buys set in and then they raise it by 10-20 dollars.  So my guess is they do not want to put it out of reach with an increase. and they can use the increase threat to sell more passes.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 13, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Amazingly Vail sucks more with each passing day.



I still do not see the Vail Sucks aspects from my experiences.  When I lived in Colorado, we were skiing BC Vail Breck (a lot) and Keystone.  The only real issue was food prices but that did not bother me a whole lot.  Parking fees but whenever we went o A Basin we paid to park as well at the small lot at the drop off area so we are already used to that so that was not a big deal either.  Then there were the lines but the Epic Mix app helped to find shorter lines - not sure how many other resorts or companies have that.  That was mostly around holidays or long weekends.

Sorry that people had some bad experiences at Wildcat and Attitash - never really like Attitash in any case.  Wildcat early season was not a thing since we always went to Killington.  Mid season we always did a day at Wildcat and/or Attitash because of "The Ride and Ski Card".  Always found the lift and trail setup on the Attitash side to be a bit weird.

Hopefully they will get the staffing issues out of the way and things will be smoother.  Somehow, I think ski areas will continue to struggle with staffing.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 13, 2021)

Well there are definitely abunch of jobs "still hiring" @ Wildcat.
  No New GM spot advertised, so Vail must have another newbie coming - Great......
https://jobs.vailresortscareers.com/wildcat/go/Wildcat-Jobs/8116800/

 Cautiously Optimistic


----------



## Geoff (Sep 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol @ vail executives reading a niche board for eastern skiing with 50 active posters. we're lucky geoff and win read here.


I’m not exactly in the Win category.  LOL

My interests didn’t align with AZ for a bunch of years so I stopped poking my nose in.   I’ve skied all the Vail New England ski areas but not recently.  The bitching in this thread is pretty relentless but there’s also some useful information so I stick around.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 15, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I’m not exactly in the Win category.  LOL
> 
> My interests didn’t align with AZ for a bunch of years so I stopped poking my nose in.   I’ve skied all the Vail New England ski areas but not recently.  The bitching in this thread is pretty relentless but there’s also some useful information so I stick around.



lol i was talking about geoff from magic, who posts sometimes as JamaicaMan, and his staff post and read as well, DoWork, and one other I think


----------



## gittist (Sep 16, 2021)

I wonder what impact this will have?









						Vail Resorts Announces CEO and Executive Succession | Vail Resorts Corporate
					





					news.vailresorts.com
				




Is Rob Katz being promoted or 'parked' where he can't do much of anything?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 16, 2021)

We talked about this a few pages ago.  Its probably as much of a "look at us we have a female CEO" as it is a Katz starting to cashout.  He'll still be very much an influential voice in the room. 

Had to call Vail today because my card on file was hacked and I forgot to update it at Epic Pass for the renewal.  They definitely have shipped the call center out of the country, as I've never had an adult call me Mr. <insert first name>.   At least they answered and took care of me without much of an issue.  Better than a stoner from Brahlorado fumbling through the process like last year.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 16, 2021)

gittist said:


> I wonder what impact this will have?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We had a discussion on this starting around 14 pages back in this thread when that news first came out in August. Lots of different theories about why or what it means (although I don't think anyone thought Katz was being side-lined somehow from what I recall).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 16, 2021)

a few, 14  who knows


----------



## abc (Sep 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Had to call Vail today because my card on file was hacked and I forgot to update it at Epic Pass for the renewal. They definitely have shipped the call center out of the country, as I've never had an adult call me Mr. <insert first name>.


LOL

I've had one incident, not with Vail but with one of my credit card company's help center. The kid exclaimed "You've been a member before I was born!"  

Talk about cultural differences that no amount of language training can fix! By that comment you know you're not dealing with an immigrant worker with a hint of an accent. You KNOW you're talking to someone who lives his entire life in a foreign country. Never set foot in this country.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Sep 16, 2021)

Does anyone know anything about the Attitash Yankee quad?  Folks on FB say it’s broken and may not run this winter?

As if lines werent long enough last year….


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 17, 2021)

Broken and most of the Lift maintenance guys left last year.  
Full assessment was to be done this summer, BUT that didn't happen either.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Sep 17, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Broken and most of the Lift maintenance guys left last year.
> Full assessment was to be done this summer, BUT that didn't happen either.



No yankee would be a disaster.  It was such a zoo last year as is.

Has anyone reached out to Vail or the AT GM on this?


----------



## thebigo (Sep 17, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> No yankee would be a disaster.  It was such a zoo last year as is.
> 
> Has anyone reached out to Vail or the AT GM on this?



Here you go: _Greg_._Gavrilets_@vailresorts.com

Good luck.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 17, 2021)

Last I checked, Attitash doesn't have a GM


----------



## thebigo (Sep 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Last I checked, Attitash doesn't have a GM


To my knowledge wildcat does not have a GM, same dude that ran Attitash into the ground last year is still there.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Sep 20, 2021)

So, per the email I just received, Vail is requiring customers (12 and up) to be vaccinated to eat in their cafeterias, and said they will do reservations for restaurants but I am unclear whether they are checking vaccination status for the sit down restaurants.  Also unclear (to me) is whether we need reservations for the cafeteria this year (we did last year).  No masks outside though and lifts at full capacity again.  I am fine with all of this - curious what others think?


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 20, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> So, per the email I just received, Vail is requiring customers (12 and up) to be vaccinated to eat in their cafeterias, and said they will do reservations for restaurants but I am unclear whether they are checking vaccination status for the sit down restaurants.  Also unclear (to me) is whether we need reservations for the cafeteria this year (we did last year).  No masks outside though and lifts at full capacity again.  I am fine with all of this - curious what others think?


Seems like they threw darts at a dart board to come up with this.  Vaccine and masks inside but no masks on lifts including gondolas and gondolas can be full.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Sep 20, 2021)

I don't disagree - vaccination for cafeteria but not for regular restaurants?  When I say I am "fine with this", essentially it doesn't affect my family as we are all vaccinated..  It definitely seems arbitrary though.


----------



## PAabe (Sep 20, 2021)

I don't like having to "show my papers" just to do something as simple as get a snack


----------



## Mum skier (Sep 20, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> So, per the email I just received, Vail is requiring customers (12 and up) to be vaccinated to eat in their cafeterias, and said they will do reservations for restaurants but I am unclear whether they are checking vaccination status for the sit down restaurants.  Also unclear (to me) is whether we need reservations for the cafeteria this year (we did last year).  No masks outside though and lifts at full capacity again.  I am fine with all of this - curious what others think?


I’m okay with this, easy enough to have a photo of vaccine proof on phone. My main wish is to have lifts operating at capacity and not have to reserve days so seems that will happen.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 20, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I don't like having to "show my papers" just to do something as simple as get a snack


All the more reason to just stay out on the hill and ski.  Lodges suck anyway


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

ski&soccermom said:


> So, per the email I just received, Vail is requiring customers (12 and up) to be vaccinated to eat in their cafeterias, and said they will do reservations for restaurants but I am unclear whether they are checking vaccination status for the sit down restaurants.  Also unclear (to me) is whether we need reservations for the cafeteria this year (we did last year).  No masks outside though and lifts at full capacity again.  I am fine with all of this - curious what others think?


I had to re-read the e-mail after your post. I just skimmed it originally really quickly. You're right, the vaccination requirement seems to only apply to the cafeteria style venues. Very strange...


----------



## thebigo (Sep 20, 2021)

Sounds like a CF waiting to happen.



> Proof of vaccination will be required of guests wishing to dine indoors, but will not be required for an indoor bathroom visit, according to Vail Resorts’ 2021-22 winter operating plan published Monday.











						Vail Resorts to require proof of vaccination for guests at cafeterias along with all workers
					

Proof of vaccination will be required of guests wishing to dine indoors, but will not be required for an indoor bathroom visit, according to Vail Resorts’ 2021-22 winter operating plan published Monday.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2021)

Most importantly no reservation system to ski


----------



## urungus (Sep 20, 2021)

Not thrilled at the thought of taking a gondola ride with a group of coughing maskless anti-vaxxers.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 20, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> I’m okay with this, easy enough to have a photo of vaccine proof on phone. My main wish is to have lifts operating at capacity and not have to reserve days so seems that will happen.


True BUT they're also supposed to check an ID when checking your vacc. card


----------



## boston_e (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I had to re-read the e-mail after your post. I just skimmed it originally really quickly. You're right, the vaccination requirement seems to only apply to the cafeteria style venues. Very strange...


So if I'm reading it the way you are... proof of vaccination would be required to grab a quick burger at lunch, but not to spend two hours in an apres-ski bar?  

That does seem fairly arbitrary to me?


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

boston_e said:


> So if I'm reading it the way you are... proof of vaccination would be required to grab a quick burger at lunch, but not to spend two hours in an apres-ski bar?
> 
> That does seem fairly arbitrary to me?



Yea...it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Requiring it across the board at all indoor dining locations would have made far more sense.


This from their FAQ is also is going to be rather interesting to see how well they can handle:



> *How often will you check my proof of vaccination?*
> Every time a guest enters an indoor, on-mountain quick-service restaurant, proof of COVID-19 vaccination will be required for those 12 and older. Vail Resorts will not be tracking or recording any guest vaccination status information.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yea...it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Requiring it across the board at all indoor dining locations would have made far more sense.
> 
> 
> This from their FAQ is also is going to be rather interesting to see how well they can handle:


I am guessing that your proof of vaccination will be linked to your Epic Pass or Day Ticket, which they will scan when you enter a building.

Probably will just need to get things uploaded into their system at the beginning of the season and then will be all set for the remainder of the season


----------



## PAabe (Sep 20, 2021)

To complain further, Vail said they are going cashless which is annoying to me 

At least they say they're going to load the lifts normally and will not require reservations - if Vail is doing this then others probably will, too


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I am guessing that your proof of vaccination will be linked to your Epic Pass or Day Ticket, which they will scan when you enter a building.
> 
> Probably will just need to get things uploaded into their system at the beginning of the season and then will be all set for the remainder of the season


The FAQ specifically says that they will not be tracking or storing the data of your vaccination status. Therefore they can't be linking it to your pass or ticket...



> *Are you storing my vaccination status anywhere?*
> No. Vail Resorts will not be tracking or recording any guest vaccination status information.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## abc (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The FAQ specifically says that they will not be tracking or storing the data of your vaccination status. Therefore they can't be linking it to your pass or ticket...





2Planker said:


> True BUT they're also supposed to check an ID when checking your vacc. card


"Supposed to", it remains to be seen. And if I were a betting man, I'd bet they don't check id. So totally easy to cheat. 

Knowing that (many cheat), whether you feel comfortable eating inside is your own choice. 

Personally, I don't care either way.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2021)

PAabe said:


> To complain further, Vail said they are going cashless which is annoying to me
> 
> At least they say they're going to load the lifts normally and will not require reservations - if Vail is doing this then others probably will, too


I believe they were cashless last year as well  o don't use cash so I don't know


----------



## snoseek (Sep 20, 2021)

Full chairs baby!
I dont give a damn what goes on in the lodge. 
I'm ok with all of this.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 20, 2021)

This almost certainly means Alterra will announce their intentions this week and it will mimic Vails approach almost to a T or be a bit more lenient


----------



## drjeff (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The FAQ specifically says that they will not be tracking or storing the data of your vaccination status. Therefore they can't be linking it to your pass or ticket...


Honestly with the amount of data Vail has about myself and my family already, if they linked our vaccination status to our Epic passes, frankly it wouldn't bother/concern me at all


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly with the amount of data Vail has about myself and my family already, if they linked our vaccination status to our Epic passes, frankly it wouldn't bother/concern me at all



Wouldn't bother me either...although perhaps it is just more of a hassle for them to manage since it is health data so there are more compliance issues that come into play. So their solution is to just not track it or store it therefore they don't need to worry about dealing with it.

On the topic of how much data they have...I actually found it a bit scary and surprising how much data Vail has on me. I don't recall ever having registered on Epic's website, yet recently they told me I had an account when I went to create one. Did the "forgot my password" thing and was able to login. When I logged in it showed myself, my dad, my uncle, and my brother all listed under the house-hold members section (complete with birth-dates for everyone). For myself, my dad, and my uncle, we went zip-lining together at Stowe a few years ago. I'm guessing we had to provide birth-dates when we did that and think it was probably right after Vail bought Stowe, so that makes sense (although still was a surprise to see). For my brother though, the only thing I can figure is that Stowe kept the data from when myself, him, and my dad did a weekend ski trip to Stowe over a decade ago and that was transferred into Vail's system after the acquisition.


----------



## abc (Sep 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> On the topic of how much data they have...I actually found it a bit scary and surprising how much data Vail has on me. I don't recall ever having registered on Epic's website, yet recently they told me I had an account when I went to create one. Did the "forgot my password" thing and was able to login. When I logged in it showed myself, my dad, my uncle, and my brother all listed under the house-hold members section (complete with birth-dates for everyone).


That's nothing!

We gave up A LOT of information about ourselves to many many other entities. All in the name of "convenience"! Be my guest.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> *Vaccine and masks inside but no masks on* lifts including *gondolas and gondolas can be full.*



If this is true it is a thermonuclear affront to their customer's intelligence.


----------



## icecoast1 (Sep 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> If this is true it is a thermonuclear affront to their customer's intelligence.


It appears to be true at least from the multiple vail releases i've seen.  Unless they decide to walk it back after the dust settles from their dart board session.   I honestly don't care either way as I won't be at any vail properties this winter, but talk about smoke and mirrors....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2021)

the gondola one is a headscratcher for sure.  as well as the restaurant no mask thing.  I'm guessing they feel they can social distance properly in the restaurant setting?  where as the cafeteria setting will not be able to be social distanced.  I know the cafeteria style settings at pretty much every resort are way too crowded even in a non-covid time.


----------



## kingslug (Sep 21, 2021)

Last year the main cafeteria at Stowe had 19 tables. I think it holds 100..and they had a time limit..which I think they should keep. It prevents people from camping out all day there.
The Gondi is perplexing though..


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2021)

Wear your mask from the door to the restaurant to your table. Don't need to wear your mask while sitting at your table and eating. Is the wearing of the mask while moving around actually doing much of anything other than a bit of virtue signlaing for those whom it makes them feel better?


----------



## boston_e (Sep 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Wear your mask from the door to the restaurant to your table. Don't need to wear your mask while sitting at your table and eating. Is the wearing of the mask while moving around actually doing much of anything other than a bit of virtue signlaing for those whom it makes them feel better?


 What if it isn't just from the door to the table?  What if someone is on the waiting list and hanging out inside for 30 minutes while their table is ready?

Easier for the restaurants to just lay out the policy and obviously someone can't have a mask on while eating.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> What if it isn't just from the door to the table?  What if someone is on the waiting list and hanging out inside for 30 minutes while their table is ready?
> 
> Easier for the restaurants to just lay out the policy and obviously someone can't have a mask on while eating.


Policy is for cafe never says anything about the table service places. If you are waiting for a table you reserved in the cafe and you are inside you have to have a mask on.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 21, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Policy is for cafe never says anything about the table service places. If you are waiting for a table you reserved in the cafe and you are inside you have to have a mask on.


 Correct.

 I was responding to the idea that mask usage in restaurants was nothing more than virtue signalling.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Correct.
> 
> I was responding to the idea that mask usage in restaurants was nothing more than virtue signalling.


ahhhh


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2021)

boston_e said:


> What if it isn't just from the door to the table?  What if someone is on the waiting list and hanging out inside for 30 minutes while their table is ready?
> 
> Easier for the restaurants to just lay out the policy and obviously someone can't have a mask on while eating.



Speaking just from my Mount Snow indoor cafeteria area experiences last year. You waited for the table you made the reservation for outside. There was a glorified host/hostess stand outside where you initailly checked in. Then when they were ready for you inside,, you were sent to another host/hostess stand inside where they assigned you a table which you then proceeded to. You then had the table for 30 minutes, and there was staff walking around notifying you when your 30 minutes was up. No waiting around inside.

If this Winter, anyone inside the building over 12 (and with the seemingly looming approval of vaccines for those under 12 soon, probably a fair amount of those under 12 as well) as well as employees all being vaccinated, there is probably a bunch of the "out of an abundance of caution" overkill going on wth this that has probably as much, if not more to do with decisions from the risk manangement folks at Vail as it does with the public health folks in the jurisdiction areas the resorts are located in


----------



## RichT (Sep 21, 2021)

No mention of the locker rooms or clubs.......


----------



## RichT (Sep 21, 2021)

Great that Vail comes out with these rules right AFTER they took your payment!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2021)

RichT said:


> Great that Vail comes out with these rules right AFTER they took your payment!


Not.
A.
Coincidence.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2021)

nope...  NOt an issue to me, but if it was, pretty sure there is no way to get a refund or credit.  

Thank you corporate overlords, may I have another...


----------



## kingslug (Sep 22, 2021)

I have a feeling we will all go skiing soon..and be just fine with it..


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2021)

for sure.  Just like last year.  Reservations were easy to come by it just took some planning.  which was sort of annoying but I still used my pass 47 time by 2/11 when I broke my collarbone


----------



## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

Posted tonight on his social media pages, Bruce Jacques, who has been a staple in Cuzzins at Mount Snow for 25ish years playing to packed crowds, has been booked on multiple weekends in Dec-Feb.

Nothing about capacity limits or anything like that, but a sign that Mount Snow atleast is going to try some apres ski bar events this coming season!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 22, 2021)

we grew up with bruce jacques. fond memories of hanging out in cuzzins as a 12 year old kid. this summer some friend of my sister's hired him for a house party. a mount snow family apparently.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> we grew up with bruce jacques. fond memories of hanging out in cuzzins as a 12 year old kid. this summer some friend of my sister's hired him for a house party. a mount snow family apparently.


Honestly one of the things that brought some "normalcy" into year 1 of COVID is Bruce did live streams on Friday nights at 7PM from early April of 2020 until roughly May of 2021 when he was able to start booking regular live in person shows.

The act when he's infront of a big crowd hasn't changed much over time, but hearing and seeing his show with all those familiar tunes just brings out something in most folks that simply feels good!

I am lucky enough that one of the non ski establishments that he plays a couple of times a year at is in the town I work in, and was actually the 1st live show he did about a year ago, after COVID hit.

He actually as a result of that show last September got booked by my friends who are the social chairs of their Country Club, and played their in July, and my wife and I got to talk with him for a bit that night. 

Truly a staple of the New England apres scene for the last quarter century with his regular Mount Snow, Stratton and Wachusett shows


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 23, 2021)

"$15.25 minimum starting wage for Ski Cooper workers this season.

"$15.25 minimum starting wage for Ski Cooper workers this season..."









						Ski Cooper looks to outpace nearby Vail with $15.25 per hour starting wage
					

Hiring has not been a problem so far at Ski Cooper, and the 480-acre ski area in southern Eagle County and northern Lake County hopes to keep it that way.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## snoseek (Sep 23, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> "$15.25 minimum starting wage for Ski Cooper workers this season.
> 
> "$15.25 minimum starting wage for Ski Cooper workers this season..."
> 
> ...


All that and Leadville is infinitely cheaper cost of living than Vail!


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 23, 2021)

Craziest we heard recently was in Stowe. Northern Lights Lodge said masks required at the indoor pool


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly one of the things that brought some "normalcy" into year 1 of COVID is Bruce did live streams on Friday nights at 7PM from early April of 2020 until roughly May of 2021 when he was able to start booking regular live in person shows.
> 
> The act when he's infront of a big crowd hasn't changed much over time, but hearing and seeing his show with all those familiar tunes just brings out something in most folks that simply feels good!
> 
> ...



we bought his album a million years ago and there's a corny jimmy buffet-esque tune called kicking back which has an earworm chorus that I will never forget.


----------



## FBGM (Sep 23, 2021)

Vail put out their list of upgrades and shit for next year. I only saw the blurb of Park City stuff. More big fancy lifts. 

I left the west. Back east I am. Back in the ski area business - no I’m not some wildcat Vail GM. Would have to pay me a million + to put up with Vail again. 

It’s humid back here. And rains. And nothing is on fire. Kinda nice?


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

Apparently Vail is 67% ahead of their season pass sales pace today compared to this time in 2019-2020.  So pre Covid.  That's insane.  Between that and no reservations this season, weekends should be pretty fun!


----------



## thebigo (Sep 23, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Vail put out their list of upgrades and shit for next year. I only saw the blurb of Park City stuff. More big fancy lifts.
> 
> I left the west. Back east I am. Back in the ski area business - no I’m not some wildcat Vail GM. Would have to pay me a million + to put up with Vail again.
> 
> It’s humid back here. And rains. And nothing is on fire. Kinda nice?


Feels like it rains every day, never seen the lakes over the spillways all summer. Where are you working?


----------



## cdskier (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Apparently Vail is 67% ahead of their season pass sales pace today compared to this time in 2019-2020.  So pre Covid.  That's insane.  Between that and no reservations this season, weekends should be pretty fun!


Did they include Epic Day pass numbers in the 2019-2020 numbers? Did the 2019-2020 numbers include Peak pass sales? I feel like there's a lot of room for "creative accounting" here to help account for the 67% increase...

FWIW, I picked up a single day Epic Day pass this year so I helped their "season pass" numbers. I figured for $67 it was hard to pass up a day at Stowe as who knows if they keep prices this low next year. My plan is to get up there for a mid-week day at some point this winter so I don't need to deal with weekend crowds.


----------



## abc (Sep 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Did the 2019-2020 numbers include Peak pass sales?


I would think not.

So the increase would be just the "accounting", counting the previous Peak pass holders.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Did they include Epic Day pass numbers in the 2019-2020 numbers? Did the 2019-2020 numbers include Peak pass sales? I feel like there's a lot of room for "creative accounting" here to help account for the 67% increase...
> 
> FWIW, I picked up a single day Epic Day pass this year so I helped their "season pass" numbers. I figured for $67 it was hard to pass up a day at Stowe as who knows if they keep prices this low next year. My plan is to get up there for a mid-week day at some point this winter so I don't need to deal with weekend crowds.



I don't know about Epic Day Pass inclusion in that data.  Not sure about how they factor Peak Pass into the equation.  That's what I bought in spring of 2019 and I can't recall when I converted it to Epic.  

As a publicly traded company, you might be able to dig down a bit deeper into the data.


----------



## Dickc (Sep 24, 2021)

Vail's upgrade list

Nothing on the Attitash Triple, but they are replacing the double, double.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 24, 2021)

I saw some complaints regarding the confusing messaging regarding vaccinations in cafeterias.  Boston is toping that - face masks are again required to enter restaurants but once seated you can be shoulder to shoulder at the bar or very close at a table.  I feel like people want to do something but not go whole hog - so they make minor arbitrary rules that do not make a whole lot of sense,


----------



## Edd (Sep 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I saw some complaints regarding the confusing messaging regarding vaccinations in cafeterias.  Boston is toping that - face masks are again required to enter restaurants but once seated you can be shoulder to shoulder at the bar or very close at a table.  I feel like people want to do something but not go whole hog - so they make minor arbitrary rules that do not make a whole lot of sense,


Honestly dude, you just seem eternally confused by everything based on all your posts since COVID began. Maybe just munch down a pot brownie and accept it. You don’t know what’s going on, I get it.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Sep 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> Honestly dude, you just seem eternally confused by everything based on all your posts since COVID began. Maybe just munch down a pot brownie and accept it. You don’t know what’s going on, I get it.



What is your deal!  Why require masks walking into a restaurant and then allow people to sit with out masks very close to each other.  Please explain that to me.  There was a outdoor beer garden that was packed no masks required!  Boston College games are packed - no masks required.  I follow what ever rules are in place and I do not care but when a rule is set then other ancillary rules need to be added to make things consistent.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

Edd said:


> Honestly dude, you just seem eternally confused by everything based on all your posts since COVID began. Maybe just munch down a pot brownie and accept it. *You don’t know what’s going on, I get it.*



He's right, scientifically it makes no sense to force people to enter the doorway wearing a mask, but 17 seconds later once they're seated merely a few feet away from numerous other tables to remain maskless for the duration of the 1 hour 13 minute, and 17 second meal.  Is the 7 second walk to the table the most dangerous & infectious moment in the establishment? It's either an attempt at lawyer repellent or mandatory based on dopey government regs.  Prove me wrong.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> What is your deal!  Why require masks walking into a restaurant and then allow people to sit with out masks very close to each other.  Please explain that to me.  There was a outdoor beer garden that was packed no masks required!  Boston College games are packed - no masks required.  I follow what ever rules are in place and I do not care but when a rule is set then other ancillary rules need to be added to make things consistent.


I believe Boston College though is requiring proof of vaccination or negative test to attend games though.  Perhaps that's why they are not requiring masks?


----------



## kingslug (Sep 27, 2021)

In todays world things do not have to make sense..to be implemented...


----------



## urungus (Sep 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> What is your deal!  Why require masks walking into a restaurant and then allow people to sit with out masks very close to each other.  Please explain that to me.



I would imagine that the law says masks are required indoors, except while actively eating.


----------



## machski (Sep 27, 2021)

urungus said:


> I would imagine that the law says masks are required indoors, except while actively eating.


No law says that, executive order maybe.  We can debate of those have been used for too long outside of normal lawmaking channels.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 27, 2021)

machski said:


> No law says that, executive order maybe.  We can debate of those have been used for too long outside of normal lawmaking channels.


And that is a key distinction that is seemingly lost on many.

Just like the fines for cross state non quarantined travel in the early phases of COVID that rarely got issued and then very often were quietly dismissed when the Executive Order was challenged


----------



## tumbler (Sep 28, 2021)

This has me a bit concerned for new regulations and the Covid signs being re-installed...









						All Vermont counties experiencing high virus transmission
					

The CDC data tracker shows all of the state’s counties are experiencing a high virus transmission rate.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## ss20 (Sep 28, 2021)

tumbler said:


> This has me a bit concerned for new regulations and the Covid signs being re-installed...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh... looking at the country as a whole we're back in a steep n steady covid decline of new cases.  I wouldn't worry about it...at least on this most recent spike.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Eh... looking at the country as a whole we're back in a steep n steady covid decline of new cases.  I wouldn't worry about it...at least on this most recent spike.


Yeah - I'd expect there to be some various restrictions - masks, maybe capacity limits in lodges or table reservations.  I know Vail has said proof of vaccination is required for dining.  There will be stuff like that but not likely widespread travel bans etc.


----------



## Geoff (Sep 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I am guessing that your proof of vaccination will be linked to your Epic Pass or Day Ticket, which they will scan when you enter a building.
> 
> Probably will just need to get things uploaded into their system at the beginning of the season and then will be all set for the remainder of the season


Personally, I think it would be a huge PITA if it didn’t work that way.   My credit card is linked to my pass.  My vaccination credentials should be, too.  My pass works for everything.  I don’t need to fish out my phone and find some photo of a vaccine card from a jillion months ago.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2021)

^if you have an i-phone just make the pic of your card a favorite so you don't need to scroll your whole photo roll. useful day to day, not just for however vail administeres this.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Personally, I think it would be a huge PITA if it didn’t work that way.   My credit card is linked to my pass.  My vaccination credentials should be, too.  My pass works for everything.  I don’t need to fish out my phone and find some photo of a vaccine card from a jillion months ago.


I mean my Epic pass knows what my birthday is, and plays the first few bars from The Beatles "It's your Birthday" instead of the usual beeping sound when they have scanned it on my birthday in the past, atleast giving the Epic Passholder the option, if they want, to link their vaccination status to their Epic Pass shouldn't be a big deal either, and one that they (Vail Resorts) could likely easily tie into their scanner funtions and then have one at the points of entry into lodges where they will be requiring proof of vaccination to eat there.  

Giving people the choice should be an option. If they don't want it linked, and want to show proof of vaccination in some other manual way, let those folks be able to do it that way.  

I would suspect that the majority of vaccinated Epic Passholders, knowing what Vail's requirements for certain in lodge dining establishments will be this season, won't have an issue with their proof of vaccination being linked directly to their Epic Pass


----------



## abc (Sep 28, 2021)

I think it's a HIPAA thing. You can't volunteer to waive the privacy requirements.

I can never get my doctor to email me a PT prescription. I just don't have the option to even waive my own personal information.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 28, 2021)

HIPAA. HEPA is an air filter lol.


----------



## abc (Sep 28, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> HIPAA. HEPA is an air filter lol.


Sorry. Thanks. Corrected.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

abc said:


> I think it's a HIPAA thing. You can't volunteer to waive the privacy requirements.
> 
> I can never get my doctor to email me a PT prescription. I just don't have the option to even waive my own personal information.


HIPPA is essentially in its most basic form is something that when you sign it, that you agree that your doctor and/or designated healthcare provider/auxillary can discuss information about you with another healthcare provider/auxillary.  For example if you were my patient, as your dentist, if needed I could discuss your case with say the oral surgeon I refer you to, or if say you need antiobiotics prior to a treatment visit because you had a knee replacement a year ago, then I could have my receptionist contact the pharmacy that you use to get you the presciption. For most practical purposes, that's what HIPPA is for most patients.

As for the example where you mentioned PT referrals and not being able to email them to you, that likely falls more in the area similar to when patients transfer to another office, we can't legally directly give them their records for them to bring along with them to their new office, but after a patient signs a release, then we have to directly send them to their new office to ensure that the records are intact when the new office receives them.  I know when I make referrals, in addition to giving the patient a copy of the referral slip, I also, via secure server, need to email the office I am referring to, for legal purposes (or atleast that is what the risk management folks tell me! how it should be done!   )

Now in a case like we're talking about with vaccine status and being linked to an EPIC pass, that would be something where we, as the Epic Passholder, are choosing to volunteer our information to Vail Resorts, not unlike if we choose to link a credit card to our passes, so there likely wouldn't be any HIPPA implications.

And yes, I agree that the legal semantics in all of this can be a bit absurd!


----------



## abc (Sep 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As for the example where you mentioned PT referrals and not being able to email them to you, that likely falls more in the area similar to when patients transfer to another office, we can't legally directly give them their records for them to bring along with them to their new office, but after a patient signs a release, then we have to directly send them to their new office to ensure that the records are intact when the new office receives them. I know when I make referrals, in addition to giving the patient a copy of the referral slip, I also, via secure server, need to email the office I am referring to, for legal purposes (or atleast that is what the risk management folks tell me! how it should be done!  )


Yeah, but the absurdity being, I can get a paper copy sent to my home address. Just not an electronic one to my email! Not even a scanned copy of the script they stuff into an envelope! 

But I'm allowed to scan it once I received it, and somehow upload it into the PT office's portal. 

Perhaps it's the irrational fear of email hacking?


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 28, 2021)

MA is doing away w/ paper Rx's. Was supposed to happen in 2020, but Covid messed that up.

We've gone 100% Digital for all Rx's here.
Way safer for sure.  Knows Pts Allg., Meds and figures out all the drug-drug interactions.
System hasn't crashed yet... But it's only been 3-4 months.


----------



## abc (Sep 28, 2021)

All medication Rx is done electronically as far as I can tell. At least all my doctors. 

PT is a little different I guess. Same goes for glasses etc.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 2, 2021)

abc said:


> I think it's a HIPAA thing. You can't volunteer to waive the privacy requirements.
> 
> I can never get my doctor to email me a PT prescription. I just don't have the option to even waive my own personal information.


Err.   HIPAA is privacy between you and your health care providers.   Any business in the country can demand to see your vaccination certificate before doing business with you.   You’re free to decline and take your business elsewhere.  Vail already knows my birthday and my name.  There’s nothing otherwise private on my COVID-19 vaccination certificate.


----------



## ne_skier (Oct 10, 2021)

tumbler said:


> This has me a bit concerned for new regulations and the Covid signs being re-installed...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Masks indoors is a possibility and is already a thing for some resorts. Lift capacity restrictions and outdoor masking most certainly will not come back. You stand a greater chance of finding yourself in the hospital due to a skiing accident than a covid transmission while outside in 20-degree weather, potentially with wind. I couldn't care less about things like reservations, which for the most part turned out to be less of a PITA than I was expecting (For most resorts it pretty much means buying your ticket in advance), but the outdoor masking was a total bitch last winter. I am unaware of any scientific study that shows a high risk of covid transmission when in a relatively small group outside (with many of those people being vaccinated), let alone one so pressing that it convinces resorts to suicide their profits.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 10, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Masks indoors is a possibility and is already a thing for some resorts. Lift capacity restrictions and outdoor masking most certainly will not come back. You stand a greater chance of finding yourself in the hospital due to a skiing accident than a covid transmission while outside in 20-degree weather, potentially with wind. I couldn't care less about things like reservations, which for the most part turned out to be less of a PITA than I was expecting (For most resorts it pretty much means buying your ticket in advance), but the outdoor masking was a total bitch last winter. I am unaware of any scientific study that shows a high risk of covid transmission when in a relatively small group outside (with many of those people being vaccinated), let alone one so pressing that it convinces resorts to suicide their profits.



Been at Mount Snow this weekend for Oktoberfest, 3 rounds of golf, and my son did DH mountain biking.

3k or so folks at Oktoberfest. Masks outside not required, short of some employees. Very few patrons wearing masks. Signs on doors to the buildings saying that masks are required inside the building, were prominently displayed on ALL doors. Were there folks inside, without mask on and not being harrased about it? 100% yes 

If infection rates stay low, ultimately the indoor mask wearing thing may end up very well being a "recommendation" and not a requirement is my current take based on personal experiences...


----------



## ne_skier (Oct 10, 2021)

It looks as if VT’s mask requirement hasn’t been in place since June, if they bring it back obviously things will change. If I had to guess, if anyone will be requiring masks, it will be larger resort chains like Alterra and Vail. Vail already committed to a long list of Covid precautionary measures that include indoor masking regardless of vaccination status. Will be interesting to see what other resorts do.


----------



## gittist (Oct 17, 2021)

Is it true that Vail Resorts is in the running to buy Jay Peak and Burke?


----------



## machski (Oct 17, 2021)

gittist said:


> Is it true that Vail Resorts is in the running to buy Jay Peak and Burke?


Anything could be possible with Jay.


----------



## Edd (Oct 17, 2021)

gittist said:


> Is it true that Vail Resorts is in the running to buy Jay Peak and Burke?


That’d make me happy as a pass holder.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 17, 2021)

One of the lawyers on here would be far more knowledgeable on the topic than me but wonder if vail owning five large mountains in one state would trigger anti-trust concerns.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 17, 2021)

thebigo said:


> One of the lawyers on here would be far more knowledgeable on the topic than me but wonder if vail owning five large mountains in one state would trigger anti-trust concerns.


It sure did for LBO/ASC in 1996. They had to unload both Cranmore and Waterville Valley for 17.2M

https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareamanagement/americanskiingcompany.php


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Oct 17, 2021)

2Planker said:


> It sure did for LBO/ASC in 1996. They had to unload both Cranmore and Waterville Valley for 17.2M
> 
> https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareamanagement/americanskiingcompany.php


Really depends how a market is defined. Not necessarily by State. One can't really say places as far apart as Jay and Snow really compete for the same skiers. I believe Jay's primary draw is from Quebec while Snow really competes with Stratton Bromley Magic Hunter Windham for NYC area skiers.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 18, 2021)

thebigo said:


> One of the lawyers on here would be far more knowledgeable on the topic than me but wonder if vail owning five large mountains in one state would trigger anti-trust concerns.



If the IKON pass can have both Sunday River and Sugarloaf in Maine, doubt *if* Vail Resorts happens to add Jay to its portfolio that it would grab any VT attention, especially given IKON having K, Stratton and Sugarbush in its VT offerings already...


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2021)

drjeff said:


> If the IKON pass can have both Sunday River and Sugarloaf in Maine, doubt *if* Vail Resorts happens to add Jay to its portfolio that it would grab any VT attention, especially given IKON having K, Stratton and Sugarbush in its VT offerings already...


Alterra does not own K though


----------



## machski (Oct 18, 2021)

drjeff said:


> If the IKON pass can have both Sunday River and Sugarloaf in Maine, doubt *if* Vail Resorts happens to add Jay to its portfolio that it would grab any VT attention, especially given IKON having K, Stratton and Sugarbush in its VT offerings already...


How do you figure that?  Vail already has Mt. Snow, Okemo and Stowe in VT.  Probably 3 of the top 4 drawing resorts in state.  Alterra only owns Stratton and Sugarbush, Killington is a limited partner on the Ikon Pass.  As are Loon/SR/SL while Vail owns outright Crotched/Sunapee/Attitash/Wildcat.  I'd say Vail is nearing the point where another large NE resort could tip them into antitrust.  Alterra, not so much as they only own 2 resorts right now.

ASC had to divest WV and Cranmore to aquire K and Mount Snow into their growing portfolio.  Those were added after Cranmore and WV and was a bit surprising as at the time, those were the smallest and lowest drawing resorts in their NE portfolio.  I never thought that really was a concession as far as these things go.  It was like plucking off a bad eyebrow.


----------



## spiderpig (Oct 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> Is it true that Vail Resorts is in the running to buy Jay Peak and Burke?


This was posted as a joke, so no 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446478084878868484


----------



## snoseek (Oct 18, 2021)

If a group is gonna buy them I would personally like to see them go to boyne as they seem to have somewhat of a clue how to run a ski area.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 18, 2021)

thebigo said:


> One of the lawyers on here would be far more knowledgeable on the topic than me but wonder if vail owning five large mountains in one state would trigger anti-trust concerns.



From their perspective, it's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission, plus, I think if they really wanted it they might take the shot on goal that the last thing State of Vermont politicians would like is for this issue to keep coming up in the weekly Vermont media for months or even years as they fight it.


----------



## snoseek (Oct 18, 2021)

Do they look at this kind of thing by state or more by region?


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

Id say if you live in the NJ,PA region epic already has a monopoly on day-tripable ski areas.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 18, 2021)

snoseek said:


> If a group is gonna buy them I would personally like to see them go to boyne as they seem to have somewhat of a clue how to run a ski area.


What is the last property boyne added? Loon 15 years ago? I know boyne spun crystal off a number of years ago to buy out a sibling. Boyne appears more focused on improving their current properties than acquiring more.

Nobody ever mentions MCP, I got no idea on their operations but they appear to be continuously growing and may want to diversify geographically.

I would like to see Pacific acquire Burke. Ragged/Burke would make for a good pass and both have a strong race culture.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Oct 18, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Id say if you live in the NJ,PA region epic already has a monopoly on day-tripable ski areas.


Not even close. The biggest players in NEPA are Blue and Camelback. And they were just allowed to merge. 

In southern PA it comes closer but that's not real relevant to folks from NJ.


----------



## machski (Oct 18, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Do they look at this kind of thing by state or more by region?


It has been regional, but an individual state may look if say an operator owned 4 of the top 6 resorts.  Maybe Jay would make 4 of the top 7 in Vails case, not t sure how Smugg's fits in there


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Oct 20, 2021)

machski said:


> It has been regional, but an individual state may look if say an operator owned 4 of the top 6 resorts.  Maybe Jay would make 4 of the top 7 in Vails case, not t sure how Smugg's fits in there


Even if a state were to get into the antitrust enforcement game - it is mostly done by federal agencies - they would still have to prove that the state lines constituted the relevant market. And it is difficult to see any compelling argument that Jay and Snow compete in a single market that doesn't include places much closer to Jay outside VT (e.g., Whiteface, Balsams, Cannon).


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Oct 20, 2021)

Wrong thread - delete


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 20, 2021)

Edd said:


> That’d make me happy as a pass holder.


Ot, but Sam ski is reporting that wildcat has a new gm as of October 1, same with crotched mtn getting a new gm


----------



## thebigo (Oct 20, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Ot, but Sam ski is reporting that wildcat has a new gm as of October 1, same with crotched mtn getting a new gm


Link?


----------



## chuckstah (Oct 20, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Link?











						Crichton, Donnelly, Giorgio, and Harris Promoted by Vail Resorts
					

SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., Oct. 20, 2021—Three Vail Resorts (VR) properties have new general managers, and the company’s Midwest region has a new vi




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 20, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Crichton, Donnelly, Giorgio, and Harris Promoted by Vail Resorts
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., Oct. 20, 2021—Three Vail Resorts (VR) properties have new general managers, and the company’s Midwest region has a new vi
> ...


Thanks for the link


----------



## ScottySkis (Oct 20, 2021)

Who is Vail Resorts New CEO?
					

It came as a genuine surprise on August 10th when Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz announced a new CEO will be taking his place on November 1st.  His replacement will be Kirsten Lynch, the current Chief M…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Crichton, Donnelly, Giorgio, and Harris Promoted by Vail Resorts
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., Oct. 20, 2021—Three Vail Resorts (VR) properties have new general managers, and the company’s Midwest region has a new vi
> ...


Wow,  Seems that Food & Bev. experience is now more important than "on snow" (Lift Ops, Patrol, Snow making, Grooming) experience as people used to come up thru the ranks.....


----------



## drjeff (Oct 21, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Wow,  Seems that Food & Bev. experience is now more important than "on snow" (Lift Ops, Patrol, Snow making, Grooming) experience as people used to come up thru the ranks.....



I personally know the guy from Mount Snow who was promoted to the GM job at Mount Brighton, MI. 

If one thinks that the head of a F&B operation at a ski resort is just about food and drink, then they're just not accurate in that perception.

More of the job is about managing and overseeing the staff and making sure that the ordering is up to date as well as any planning for events....  

Many a GOOD ski area GM came from prior roles that weren't related to the direct snow surface and lift operations side of the industry


----------



## ss20 (Oct 21, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Wow,  Seems that Food & Bev. experience is now more important than "on snow" (Lift Ops, Patrol, Snow making, Grooming) experience as people used to come up thru the ranks.....



F/B is sometimes the most complex department to run, depending on the resort.  And unlike the other departments you mention...the F/B manager is supposed to make sure the department turns a profit unlike on-mountain stuff that just burn through cash.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 'I personally know the guy from Mount Snow who was promoted to the GM job at Mount Brighton, MI.
> 
> If one thinks that the head of a F&B operation at a ski resort is just about food and drink, then they're just not accurate in that perception.
> 
> ...



It's crazy how 50 years ago so many GM's were head patroller's or ski school director's....oh how times have changed!


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## FBGM (Oct 21, 2021)

Imagine going into the GM roll of the dumpster fire red headed step child of Vail eastern resorts - Wildcat. Good luck dude.


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## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Imagine going into the GM roll of the dumpster fire red headed step child of Vail eastern resorts - Wildcat. Good luck dude.


Attitash would be worse


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2021)

I've been involved since the 80's, primarily at 4 resorts...
  Trained and worked w/ many as they climbed the ladder. (Chip Seamens, JD Devivo, Brian Jones, Jim Bilotta, , and Brian Heon)  Those guys all earned their stripes....

Call me old school, but I am not sure I really  want a F&B manager making decisions about Snowmaking, Grooming,  Lift Maintenance, Mountain Ops. 
And definitely not when it comes to Patrol oversight and making medical calls on trauma pts. Calling for  LifeFlight or DART has to come from the resort's GM in ME & NH

 YES, Good Luck to both of them.  They've got a huge pile to clean up.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 21, 2021)

A good manager listens to his department leads and makes decisions based on their input regardless of industry


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## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I've been involved since the 80's, primarily at 4 resorts...
> Trained and worked w/ many as they climbed the ladder. (Chip Seamens, JD Devivo, Brian Jones, Jim Bilotta, , and Brian Heon)  Those guys all earned their stripes....
> 
> Call me old school, but I am not sure I really  want a F&B manager making decisions about Snowmaking, Grooming, and  Lift Maintenance. And definitely not when it comes the Patrol oversight and making medical calls on trauma.


Do you want someone who was responsible for snowmaking, grooming and lift maintenance making medical calls on trauma?


----------



## snoseek (Oct 21, 2021)

It's all about putting the right dept heads in place and listening to them. Maybe f&b is popular because the threshold of shitshow is high up? You do get real good at the procurement and office side of things that's foe sure and you get real fucking good at multitasking.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 21, 2021)

As someone who served as assistant director of F&B at two resorts and had a stint as acting director at one of them, I don't think that division is the best track for ski resort GMs.  Unless those mountains have stellar mountain ops department heads, which is certainly no longer the case at Wildcat unless they have hired someone great since last season. 

Hopefully they work out


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Do you want someone who was responsible for snowmaking, grooming and lift maintenance making medical calls on trauma?


OK maybe not the best example...
In terms of Mt Ops, We'll make the Med decisions.

I'm sorry, maybe it's me. But putting the F&B manager in charge of the whole resort is stupid.
Then again, both WC and ATrash had  every other supervisor/manager leave this summer.  So they were probably the only ones left.
They certainly didn't advertise and many w/ any type of ski resort experience have already eliminated working for Vail, at least in NH

We'll see...  At least the food at Atrash has to improve. It was god awful the last 2-3 years.
WC food is simpler and OK. Not great, but good Burger w/ fries or Bfast bacon,egg&cheese.


----------



## gittist (Oct 21, 2021)

Makes me remember when I was stationed at a reserve center in Chicopee, MA. One of our best reserve Corpsman( medic) was a full time garage mechanic!  Come to think of it I don't know how good of a mechanic he was .


----------



## MogulMonsters (Oct 22, 2021)

Attitash?  Yankee?  Has anyone seen it spinning in prep for the winter yet?


----------



## ctdubl07 (Oct 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I personally know the guy from Mount Snow who was promoted to the GM job at Mount Brighton, MI.
> 
> If one thinks that the head of a F&B operation at a ski resort is just about food and drink, then they're just not accurate in that perception.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree Mike was a hustler and sorry to see a friendly face leave but happy for him and his career. TO me, he took pride in his job and was a team player...saw him on a number of occasions last season scanning passes and working the lift lines. When i mentioned it to him one time, he was glad to say it took a team effort.


----------



## gittist (Oct 25, 2021)

It looks like the mask police (I'd rather use another word) will be warm this year. Vail and two others are imposing masks indoors.





__





						COVID 2021-22 Operations Round Up #1 - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com
					





					www.newenglandskiindustry.com


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 25, 2021)

Unfortunate, But Covid is definitely  still a problem in some rural areas.
I'd rather be indoors eating, than in the car alone.  Wife won't go after last year.

 Looks like a lot of places are still pondering their response...


----------



## urungus (Oct 25, 2021)

gittist said:


> It looks like the mask police (I'd rather use another word) will be warm this year. Vail and two others are imposing masks indoors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



very useful chart, thanks


----------



## Mainer (Oct 25, 2021)

Wearing a mask for 20 ft walking inside before taking it off and sitting down will always be stupid. But if it makes people feel better whatever.  As long as it’s not required outside.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 28, 2021)

On another note Wildcat was blowing snow this morning. Probably just testing but…


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 28, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> On another note Wildcat was blowing snow this morning. Probably just testing but…


3 years ago today

Guessing if Vail was in charge then, I wouldn't have been skiing


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> 3 years ago today
> 
> Guessing if Vail was in charge then, I wouldn't have been skiing



where is your pic from? assuming wildcat.

that was a fucking amazing day at magic. deep october pow on top of no base! my first and only time. snowboard buddy caught a nasty snake and fucked himself up properly that day.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 29, 2021)

Yes Wildcat


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> where is your pic from? assuming wildcat.
> 
> that was a fucking amazing day at magic. deep october pow on top of no base! my first and only time. snowboard buddy caught a nasty snake and fucked himself up properly that day.


I had the first chair of the season that day at the Cat but I don't remember powder, lynx was in prime shape.

My best October day was 2005 at K. The remnant of Wilma slammed into a cold front and dropped feet. Awesome weekend, just kept lapping toilet bowl or whatever the hell they call it now. Then it all melted by midweek.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 29, 2021)

im checking ski tracks now and i actually am thinking of nov 24 2018 at magic. i could have sworn i skied October at magic once recently but not finding evidence in my stats. i had second chair of the season and was in their facebook video. it was prob the nov 24 date


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im checking ski tracks now and i actually am thinking of nov 24 2018 at magic. i could have sworn i skied October at magic once recently but not finding evidence in my stats. i had second chair of the season and was in their facebook video. it was prob the nov 24 date


I had first chair at the cat two seasons in a row. Was around #10 last year, the kids would not stand around and wait two hours. Definitely going to miss it this year because I am never skiing a day at a Vail property again.

Skiing memories screw with you, I remember two people on that chair but was sure the third was another dude.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 29, 2021)

I can't say I'll never ski Wildcat or Stowe ever again.  They're the two mountains with easily my fondest ski memories in the East.   But, I'm in no rush to give Vail money any time soon.


----------



## machski (Oct 29, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I had the first chair of the season that day at the Cat but I don't remember powder, lynx was in prime shape.
> 
> My best October day was 2005 at K. The remnant of Wilma slammed into a cold front and dropped feet. Awesome weekend, just kept lapping toilet bowl or whatever the hell they call it now. Then it all melted by midweek.


Think that hit the Cat too.  Remember late teens open in October on Natural alone around then (and a 10 minute delay on 16N for the Bull Moose to decide to clear the road).  Unfortunately they hadn't had the Quad reinspection for the winter from the Gondi can switch over, so it was just off TomCat.  Absolutely amazing!!!

Not for nothing, but Keystone is open in Colorado already.  Perhaps Vailay at ball with us in the East at some point early/late?  Last year and this are not helping convince them however.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

Hey Mach. Planning a four day weekend at the river for veterans day. Will need three dinners with the wife and kids, kids are four and eight. What will be open for dinner? 

Did the brewery ever get open again? Riverhaus? Matterhorn?


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

machski said:


> Think that hit the Cat too.  Remember late teens open in October on Natural alone around then (and a 10 minute delay on 16N for the Bull Moose to decide to clear the road).  Unfortunately they hadn't had the Quad reinspection for the winter from the Gondi can switch over, so it was just off TomCat.  Absolutely amazing!!!
> 
> Not for nothing, but Keystone is open in Colorado already.  Perhaps Vailay at ball with us in the East at some point early/late?  Last year and this are not helping convince them however.


My memory is the cat and k got open. It came absolutely out of nowhere. Top five skiing memory along with valentines day 2007 and a random alta dump when I was a kid. That day at alta was when I learned to ski, I had no choice - become a good skier or drown.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I can't say I'll never ski Wildcat or Stowe ever again.  They're the two mountains with easily my fondest ski memories in the East.   But, I'm in no rush to give Vail money any time soon.


Grandpa skied into his mid 90s. I have been skiing wildcat for going on 40 years, hopefully have another 40 in me. Figure I will be around longer than vail but they don't get another penny from me.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 29, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Grandpa skied into his mid 90s. I have been skiing wildcat for going on 40 years, hopefully have another 40 in me. Figure I will be around longer than vail but they don't get another penny from me.



 52 years @ The Cat for me..   First Cat trip was '69/'70 at age 6.

*First time ever *was 1969 @ Mt .Whittier in Ossipee, 
http://www.nelsap.org/nh/mtwhit1.html


----------



## thebigo (Oct 29, 2021)

Grandpa was born in Poland. His dad smuggled Felix out as a child before his son had to suffer Hitler. My parents married in 1969, they honeymooned at the Pico inn then when the snow wasn't good enough they packed up and headed to Jackson. Per my dad, there was so much snow in 1969, wildcat had to bulldoze the liftline.

Sad that vail has taken away my last chances to ski the cat with dad.

We will ski SR or ragged, vail needs to be put out of business.


----------



## jimk (Oct 30, 2021)

Thought I'd post this in this thread for an interesting contrast:

In 2000, a Disneyland ticket cost $41. A price hike just increased it to $164.​If you want the ability to visit both parks in a single day, you'll need to pay $224.​Katie Dowd
Oct. 26, 2021
If you want to visit Disneyland on its busiest days, be prepared to pay even more. Disney announced Monday that it's adding a sixth level to its tiered ticket price system, a level that becomes available when there's high demand at the parks. The sixth tier will set you back $164 for a single-day, single-park ticket; if you want the ability to visit both parks in the single day, you'll need to pay $224. Tier six is set to start going into effect in March 2022.

In 2000, a single-day ticket to Disneyland cost $41. Adjusted for inflation, that ticket would cost $62 today.



Tiers two through five are also going up starting in March 2022. Tier two (previously $114) goes up to $119, tier three (previously $124) goes up to $134, tier four (previously $139) goes up to $149 and tier five (previously $154) goes up to $159. The first tier will remain the same at $109, but only applies to the lowest-demand days, generally weekdays in slower months like February.
If you want multi-day park hopper tickets, those have also increased. A two-day park hopper pass, which used to cost $290, is now $315. To see a full breakdown of price changes, see the Disney Food Blog.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 30, 2021)

jimk said:


> Thought I'd post this in this thread for an interesting contrast:
> 
> In 2000, a Disneyland ticket cost $41. A price hike just increased it to $164.​If you want the ability to visit both parks in a single day, you'll need to pay $224.​Katie Dowd
> Oct. 26, 2021
> ...



And to build off of that, Disney is now offering the chance, at an extra fee, to help increase the odds of one getting to ride their incredibly popular Star Wars rides and a few others for a fee of currently $15 per person via their virtual queue system....

Ski areas are catching on to what theme parks are doing with making it easier for them to get more of your money in as many ways as possible with as many layers of confusion as possible


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 30, 2021)

F all that. National Forests are free.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 30, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> F all that. National Forests are free.


Don’t give them any ideas


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## Mainer (Oct 30, 2021)

Big sky is $225 a day now plus $70 more (Give or take based on the day) if you Want to ride the tram. Was $79 in the early 2000’s. I Have fond memories from when I lived there as I do when I visited Disney world as a kid. Unfortunately I probably won’t be able to afford a family trip to either, sorry kids


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 30, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Don’t give them any ideas


I know, right? 

Honestly though, in a lot places that are being loved to death by overcrowding on NF lands are being turned into fee areas as well and often turned over to private entities to manage.


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 30, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Big sky is $225 a day now plus $70 more (Give or take based on the day) if you Want to ride the tram. Was $79 in the early 2000’s. I Have fond memories from when I lived there as I do when I visited Disney world as a kid. Unfortunately I probably won’t be able to afford a family trip to either, sorry kids


That’s 300 a day! This sport is seriously starting to push me away from it.


----------



## gittist (Oct 30, 2021)

So much for us po'folks that are on fixed incomes skiing there!  In mid August the Gold pass with unlimited tram access was $1,899 (adult) and $1,499 with 10 days of tram.   There's a couple of other price points but I didn't bother tracking them through the internet archive.  Slopeside parking is $40/day unless you're staying at one of their lodging properties. Got to make up up for last year!  People will probably be tripping over each other to pay it too!!


----------



## urungus (Oct 30, 2021)

gittist said:


> So much for us po'folks that are on fixed incomes skiing there!  In mid August the Gold pass with unlimited tram access was $1,899 (adult) and $1,499 with 10 days of tram.   There's a couple of other price points but I didn't bother tracking them through the internet archive.  Slopeside parking is $40/day unless you're staying at one of their lodging properties. Got to make up up for last year!  People will probably be tripping over each other to pay it too!!



So if you are a local and ski 100 days and want more than 10 days on the tram it would cost $1899 + $40 x 100 = $ 5899 ?!?


----------



## Mainer (Oct 30, 2021)

Trams included on gold pass. When I lived there it was $1100 for big sky and $500 for moonlight. Now they are one pass so thE price hasn’t gone up that much for a season pass. Our first condo in 2003 was $600 a month to rent. Could walk to lift and ski almost ski back to house. Those Shitty condos are probably $500,000 now, they were $60,000 then. Less then 20 years


----------



## drjeff (Oct 30, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Trams included on gold pass. When I lived there it was $1100 for big sky and $500 for moonlight. Now they are one pass so thE price hasn’t gone up that much for a season pass. Our first condo in 2003 was $600 a month to rent. Could walk to lift and ski almost ski back to house. Those Shitty condos are probably $500,000 now, they were $60,000 then. Less then 20 years



Wouldn't that be a F-Boyne for the primary cause behind that??


----------



## Mainer (Oct 30, 2021)

There used to be a sticker that was Bend Over Your Now Employed for boyne. I just followed the thread drift to Disney brought it to a boyne thread drift. Might as well thread drift to Shawnee (New Boyne Resort) probably turning into another McDonald ski resort soon which is a shame.. Let’s bring it full circle to epic local is $1000 cheaper for a family of four than Shawnee is this year and I feel gross for doing it.  Vail does sucks but I love wildcat.


----------



## machski (Oct 31, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Hey Mach. Planning a four day weekend at the river for veterans day. Will need three dinners with the wife and kids, kids are four and eight. What will be open for dinner?
> 
> Did the brewery ever get open again? Riverhaus? Matterhorn?


Sunday River Brewery did reopen, haven't been since but the lot is usually packed.  Riverhaus just closed permanently a few weeks back.  Matterhorn I believe opens for the full season ahead of Veterans weekend.  In town has Mill House, Suds, Modern Barn, Cho Sun and Suds going.  Not sure if any of the Shipyard restaurants will be open at White Cap then.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 1, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Don’t give them any ideas


North Conway put up parking meters At places like Diana’s Baths... ridiculous!


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 1, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> That’s 300 a day! This sport is seriously starting to push me away from it.


Me too! It’s why I do more days in the BC than anything now,


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> North Conway put up parking meters At places like Diana’s Baths... ridiculous!


That's been in the works for 10-12 years....


----------



## Mainer (Nov 1, 2021)

They should charge $50 to park at Diana’s bath. Always so crowded and nothing special. Yet people  line up for hours for the chance to be packed in, ass to elbow with their fellow masshole to walk a boulevard to a mediocre waterfall.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2021)

Fine by me..... Let everyone go to Diana's

We'll take Arethusa, Ripley & Jackson Falls. All just as nice and way less crowded, unless it's Opening Day of Trout season


----------



## gittist (Nov 1, 2021)

'masshole'?   oh my.... What's the worst thing on a Maine road?


----------



## Mainer (Nov 1, 2021)

Is the answer, masshole. I think it was 2 years ago, somebody stayed at Diana’s bath until dark. They couldn’t find the way back to the car. Had to call 911 and wait to be rescued.


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## abc (Nov 2, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> That’s 300 a day! This sport is seriously starting to push me away from it.


What “sport”? It’s entertainment!

Ok, it’s recreation. Like cycling or going to stadium watching a game. You can do the former for free or the latter for a fee. 

If you’re indeed doing a “sport” in skiing, you’d be buying a pass. That’s more than affordable, for now at least. The difference? The former has no capacity limit. The latter does. 

Not that I’m a fan of high day ticket prices. But some of the complaints are so out of touch with reality.It sounds as absurd as the high prices.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2021)

The argument is participation growth and how high day ticket costs impact that negatively. Basically unless people are introduced to the sport as a kid by parents with the resources to make that introduction, the chance of someone becoming a participant is very limited at the price of entry.


----------



## gittist (Nov 2, 2021)

In regards to "Is the answer, masshole?"   Close. In the 1960s the correct answer was a Massachusetts driver. In today's world it's not so clean cut as there are a few state competing for the top spot .


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The argument is participation growth and how high day ticket costs impact that negatively. Basically unless people are introduced to the sport as a kid by parents with the resources to make that introduction, the chance of someone becoming a participant is very limited at the price of entry.


Even beyond introducing new skiers, casual skiers are priced out. My father got me into skiing but he was never a 30+ days a year guy like I am. Just a few times a year to scratch the itch, same with most of my friends. These passes are a great deal if you ski alot but if you only want to go a few times then its a fight to break even, especially when you factor in rentals.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Even beyond introducing new skiers, casual skiers are priced out. My father got me into skiing but he was never a 30+ days a year guy like I am. Just a few times a year to scratch the itch, same with most of my friends. These passes are a great deal if you ski alot but if you only want to go a few times then its a fight to break even, especially when you factor in rentals.



For sure.  I went to UVM and had tons of skiing buddies who while not as passionate about the sport as I am, they still skied 10-15 days a season on cheap college passes.  Most left VT for better work opportunities, myself included.  I'd say 80% of those casual skiers gave it up for good due to the high cost of day tickets.   I think the ski resorts finally realized they were losing the 20-30 age demographic and responded with products targeted towards that age group, but not until ten years after I was done with school. 

It will be interesting to see what the participation rate is in ten years.  At least Vail is investing in a number of feeder hills and not letting to them die.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 2, 2021)

abc said:


> What “sport”? It’s entertainment!
> 
> Ok, it’s recreation. Like cycling or going to stadium watching a game. You can do the former for free or the latter for a fee.
> 
> ...


Every year I feel more and more stress to continue being a participant. It’s beginning to lose its value for me personally.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> For sure.  I went to UVM and had tons of skiing buddies who while not as passionate about the sport as I am, they still skied 10-15 days a season on cheap college passes.  Most left VT for better work opportunities, myself included.  I'd say 80% of those casual skiers gave it up for good due to the high cost of day tickets.   I think the ski resorts finally realized they were losing the 20-30 age demographic and responded with products targeted towards that age group, but not until ten years after I was done with school.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what the participation rate is in ten years.  At least Vail is investing in a number of feeder hills and not letting to them die.



I wonder if on some level, the cheap college and then the rise of the 20 something passes, are starting to work against the industry as you have a sizable group of folks who were on those passes for so long, that now when they hit say 30, they're looking at a more expensive (and in many cases still very reasonable and far less expensive than a decade or so ago) pass as being a cost prohibitive issues (and yes I get that some some in that age demographic the young family thing is a factor as well)?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2021)

Hard to prioritize skiing expenses for anyone aged 25 to late 30s.   The burden of massive college debt, saving for down payments on an extraordinarily expensive real estate market, daycare costs....etc.   Ive had a small minority of friends in their 40s re-enter the sport once those costs have stabilized compared to their incomes.  But those who have are very successful.   Skiing has always been tilted towards the more well to do, but it's only getting worse.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if on some level, the cheap college and then the rise of the 20 something passes, are starting to work against the industry as you have a sizable group of folks who were on those passes for so long, that now when they hit say 30, they're looking at a more expensive (and in many cases still very reasonable and far less expensive than a decade or so ago) pass as being a cost prohibitive issues (and yes I get that some some in that age demographic the young family thing is a factor as well)?


The family aspect is definitely putting a crunch on our extracurricular activity funds.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Fine by me..... Let everyone go to Diana's
> 
> We'll take Arethusa, Ripley & Jackson Falls. All just as nice and way less crowded, unless it's Opening Day of Trout season


Just remember, it starts with the parking meters at Diana’s... next it will be Arethusa, Jackson etc. works at one place it can work at others too...


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 4, 2021)

Question for those in the “know”: how bad are the staffing shortages at Wildcat and Attitash this year? Looks like they are hiring all positions. Last year they had the snowmaking crew work a couple days at Attitash then shift to Wildcat then back, stretched thin, overworked, underpaid. How about this season? Will each mountain get its own crew? Are there even enough snow at operators to work both resorts (I love bumps so this wouldn’t upset me if there wasn’t haha)!


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 4, 2021)

abc said:


> What “sport”? It’s entertainment!
> 
> Ok, it’s recreation. Like cycling or going to stadium watching a game. You can do the former for free or the latter for a fee.
> 
> ...


I disagree. It is a sport for many. And it’s not always cost. It is certainly a sport to me. I could afford a season pass. But I like to travel to where the snow is and not be locked into one resort. Additionally I work too much 6-7 days a week. Not everyone has every weekend free to ski. We go when we can. The fact that you need to have a season pass to consider it being a sport is just silly. When conditions are right I like to spend my time in the BC too.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That's been in the works for 10-12 years....


Not really parking meters and also not installed by the town. The USFS collects the fee in order to offset the cost associated with maintaining the ADA trail and toilet facilities, as well as creating new trails, restoring historical building, maintenance, education and youth programs located in all national forest.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Nov 4, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> I disagree. It is a sport for many. And it’s not always cost. It is certainly a sport to me. I could afford a season pass. But I like to travel to where the snow is and not be locked into one resort. Additionally I work too much 6-7 days a week. Not everyone has every weekend free to ski. We go when we can. The fact that you need to have a season pass to consider it being a sport is just silly. When conditions are right I like to spend my time in the BC too.


Something like an IndyPass pays for itself in 3-4 ski days depending on where or when you use it and doesn't lock you into one resort. They were available for under $250 through summer. Hard to see how something like that would not make sense unless none of their 80 ski areas are viable for you and appeal to you (or you plan to ski less than 3 days a year).


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## cdskier (Nov 4, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Something like an IndyPass pays for itself in 3-4 ski days depending on where or when you use it and doesn't lock you into one resort. They were available for under $250 through summer. Hard to see how something like that would not make sense unless none of their 80 ski areas are viable for you and appeal to you (or you plan to ski less than 3 days a year).



Yup...I think the problem here is that some people expect to be able to ski anywhere they want for a cheap price on any given random day. That's simply an unrealistic expectation.


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 4, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Question for those in the “know”: how bad are the staffing shortages at Wildcat and Attitash this year? Looks like they are hiring all positions. Last year they had the snowmaking crew work a couple days at Attitash then shift to Wildcat then back, stretched thin, overworked, underpaid. How about this season? Will each mountain get its own crew? Are there even enough snow at operators to work both resorts (I love bumps so this wouldn’t upset me if there wasn’t haha)!


Hearing staff shortages will be worse than last year. There are having an especially hard time getting lifties and snowmakers with vail's vaccine mandate. With the lack off staff they skimped on mtn maintenance this summer. They did not maintain the mtn's waterbars and a gully blew out on alleycat during a storm a few weeks ago. Not sure if they've repaired it yet.


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## snoseek (Nov 4, 2021)

Oh damn here we go again


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## 2Planker (Nov 4, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Hearing staff shortages will be worse than last year. There are having an especially hard time getting lifties and snowmakers with vail's vaccine mandate. With the lack off staff they skimped on mtn maintenance this summer. They did not maintain the mtn's waterbars and a gully blew out on alleycat during a storm a few weeks ago. Not sure if they've repaired it yet.


It's definitely worse than last year...
4 days/week at best for both places.  Shared snowmaking crew, which will suck on weekends when only 1 place gets the goods.

 Most folks I know (including myself) are 100% done work for Vail.  
BW, SR, Loon  and King Pine have all benefitted from the Attitash/Wildcat exodus.

All positions are open, but not a ton of "quality applicants"......
Glad that F&B guy knows what he's doing......


----------



## mgalluzz (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> It's definitely worse than last year...
> 4 days/week at best for both places.  Shared snowmaking crew, which will suck on weekends when only 1 place gets the goods.
> 
> Most folks I know (including myself) are 100% done work for Vail.
> ...


You think they'll each only be open 4 days per week? Wow.


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## Edd (Nov 4, 2021)

mgalluzz said:


> You think they'll each only be open 4 days per week? Wow.


Doubt that strongly. That’d be grounds for a refund on the pass.


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## 2Planker (Nov 4, 2021)

mgalluzz said:


> You think they'll each only be open 4 days per week? Wow.


That was what Vail said maybe 6-8 weeks ago.
Fri-Mon for Attitash and Fri-Sun for WC, plus all holidays for both
Snowmaking at one or the other, never both on the same night - Same as last year.

 YES a ton of folks have requested refunds already


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## Edd (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That was what Vail said maybe 6-8 weeks ago.
> Fri-Mon for Attitash and Fri-Sun for WC, plus all holidays


Do you have a link for this? That’s huge news, if true.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 4, 2021)

As a midweek skier and a big big fan of wildcat this would hurt.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 4, 2021)

lol


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 4, 2021)

Edd said:


> Do you have a link for this? That’s huge news, if true.


I don't off hand, But it was discussed  in this thread

Attitash is barren. Locked up tight. No one around any of the offices yesterday, and not answering any of the phones.
They desperately need Lift Mechanics, Patrollers, F&B, and all the hotel workers
Only message is "Follow us on Social Media".

WC has a few staff in but only 6 people showed up last Sat for the job fair.
 Their phone has been off the hook for 4 days.  Just a Busy Signal
Opening Day is in just 2 weeks,  Hmmmm, we'll see how that goes


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I don't off hand, But it was discussed  in this thread



Pretty certain that was Smellytele making a joke

If there was any validity to that schedule, Atticats social media would be popping off with pitchfork posts every single day.   Though I won't have a pass there, I still follow them on social media.  I haven't seen any of that.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty certain that was Smellytele making a joke
> 
> If there was any validity to that schedule, Atticats social media would be popping off with pitchfork posts every single day.   Though I won't have a pass there, I still follow them on social media.  I haven't seen any of that.


The truth is: They just don't know....
The  Patrol Director called last weekend, begging for people to come back.  Told me they just don't know IF they are going to be able to operate at 100% this year.
So, it may have been a joke, Ha Ha Ha  But it could be coming to fruition now


----------



## NYDB (Nov 4, 2021)

God I hope Vail doesn't end up buying Jay


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The truth is: They just don't know....
> The  Patrol Director called last weekend, begging for people to come back.  Told me they just don't know IF they are going to be able to operate at 100% this year.
> So, it may have been a joke, Ha Ha Ha  But it could be coming to fruition now



What is the pay / benefit advantage to patrol at Sunday River or Bretton Woods vs Atticat?

Last year lots of people made it excuses that staffing was hard during the pandemic.  But, my view of the competition was that while perhaps not staffed to the levels they normally would be, they were all doing so much better than Atticat.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> God I hope Vail doesn't end up buying any other ski area



Fixed it for you


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty certain that was Smellytele making a joke
> 
> If there was any validity to that schedule, Atticats social media would be popping off with pitchfork posts every single day.   Though I won't have a pass there, I still follow them on social media.  I haven't seen any of that.


I am vail!


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The truth is: They just don't know....
> The  Patrol Director called last weekend, begging for people to come back.  Told me they just don't know IF they are going to be able to operate at 100% this year.
> So, it may have been a joke, Ha Ha Ha  But it could be coming to fruition now


They'll scrape by with 1 trail, one lift and a skeleton crew with the worst experience imaginable for their paying guests long before they go to a part time operating schedule.  They probably have tons of salaried employees they can make work 100 hours a week to pull it off.... gotta keep that stock price high


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> They'll scrape by with 1 trail, one lift and a skeleton crew with the worst experience imaginable for their paying guests long before they go to a part time operating schedule.  They probably have tons of salaried employees they can make work 100 hours a week to pull it off.... gotta keep that stock price high



I don't know about "tons of salaried employees."  For that operation, maybe 5-10


----------



## Mainer (Nov 4, 2021)

For what’s its worth attitash/ wildcat has had an ad in the local paper for about a month now. They also had an ad on the radio looking for a fleet maintenance supervisor at attitash, in charge of all snowcats, plow trucks, snowmobiles etc. $18 hr.  Last year they didn’t advertise so this is better.
   Without the j 1’s they’re going to be in serious trouble. Without skilled labor they’re going to be in serious trouble. The local paper is also filled with want ads for warm shitty low paying jobs. The $450ish season pass isn’t much of a perk. Probably going to be rough.
   The good news of the mwv is the local chamber pass is back after not having last year. Minus attitash and wildcat for the first time though. Vail really does suck.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 4, 2021)

Mainer said:


> For what’s its worth attitash/ wildcat has had an ad in the local paper for about a month now. They also had an ad on the radio looking for a fleet maintenance supervisor at attitash, in charge of all snowcats, plow trucks, snowmobiles etc. $18 hr.  Last year they didn’t advertise so this is better.
> Without the j 1’s they’re going to be in serious trouble. Without skilled labor they’re going to be in serious trouble. The local paper is also filled with want ads for warm shitty low paying jobs. The $450ish season pass isn’t much of a perk. Probably going to be rough.
> The good news of the mwv is the local chamber pass is back after not having last year. Minus attitash and wildcat for the first time though. Vail really does suck.


Lol when I saw the ad in the Conway Daily Sun there was no phone number or info or anything. Just “help wanted all positions” haha.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 5, 2021)

The travel ban is going to be lifted on November 8th. That should at least help out getting the J1s back.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 5, 2021)

mbedle said:


> The travel ban is going to be lifted on November 8th. That should at least help out getting the J1s back.


Are they lifting the vaccination requirement for international travel? What I read a few weeks ago mentioned that was a major hangup as the vaccines being given in the countries they're recruiting don't meet the US requirement


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2021)

mbedle said:


> The travel ban is going to be lifted on November 8th. That should at least help out getting the J1s back.


Sort of, that is for fully vaxed foreigners.  Then there is mandatory pre-travel test requirements still.  So yes the pipeline will reopen, but it will be quite a bit narrower than in the past.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Nov 5, 2021)

mbedle said:


> The travel ban is going to be lifted on November 8th. That should at least help out getting the J1s back.


Has nothing to do with J1s. The work and travel program restarted months ago. The problem now is visa processing time and access to vaccines in some of the source countries.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 5, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Has nothing to do with J1s. The work and travel program restarted months ago. The problem now is visa processing time and access to vaccines in some of the source countries.


Good to know, I wasn't aware that the J1 visa program had restarted and didn't fall under the travel ban. Hopefully those people have already submitted their visa applications back when the program restarted and at least are in the system. As far as vaccine status, hopefully they are coming from a country that offers the approved versions in the US/WHO. Unfortunately, there are a couple unapproved ones being use in South America, but it looks like those countries also offer the approved ones. Not sure how it all works down there (i.e., can you go back and get a second vaccine?).


----------



## gittist (Nov 5, 2021)

Just for kicks I went  on to 'buy ticket' section of the Wildcat site and noted that I could buy Wednesday tickets so hopefully all of the "weekends only" is a joke?

Maybe the 'wash out' trail at Wildcat is the begining of a half pipe or a new extreme skiing trail  .


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 5, 2021)

gittist said:


> Just for kicks I went  on to 'buy ticket' section of the Wildcat site and noted that I could buy Wednesday tickets so hopefully all of the "weekends only" is a joke?
> 
> Maybe the 'wash out' trail at Wildcat is the begining of a half pipe or a new extreme skiing trail  .


It was a joke but I wouldn’t put it passed them.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 5, 2021)

Attitash? Yankee?


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 5, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Grandpa was born in Poland. His dad smuggled Felix out as a child before his son had to suffer Hitler. My parents married in 1969, they honeymooned at the Pico inn then when the snow wasn't good enough they packed up and headed to Jackson. Per my dad, there was so much snow in 1969, wildcat had to bulldoze the liftline.
> 
> Sad that vail has taken away my last chances to ski the cat with dad.
> 
> We will ski SR or ragged, vail needs to be put out of business.


Not sure if youve been to Ragged but if not, I highly reccomend it. Very nice mid sized mountain with a ton of off trail skiing, good park, and a good amount of trails. If you must ski steeps, look elsewhere they have 1 fairly steep but short run, think bodes run at BW but 3 times as long. So many fun trails. Downside- there will be tons of kids all over certain trails. just avoid them or wait till most of them disappear after lunch.  But its waaay closer than SR. Had season tickets there the last 5 years.   good luck!


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> And to build off of that, Disney is now offering the chance, at an extra fee, to help increase the odds of one getting to ride their incredibly popular Star Wars rides and a few others for a fee of currently $15 per person via their virtual queue system....
> 
> Ski areas are catching on to what theme parks are doing with making it easier for them to get more of your money in as many ways as possible with as many layers of confusion as possible


Killington just announced a Fast pass for $49 per day to basically jump the line....


----------



## drjeff (Nov 5, 2021)

Mount Snow about 30 minutes ago. Temp is upper 30's and dropping. Can't see any patches of white on Long John from my angle, so all the snowmaking efforts there have been above the Carinthia turn. Not sure from my angle either if any terrain on the Northface has received any gun time yet either


----------



## skiur (Nov 5, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Killington just announced a Fast pass for $49 per day to basically jump the line....



No way!!! Do you think people will be happy or mad about this new deal???


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Killington just announced a Fast pass for $49 per day to basically jump the line....


Correction, pricing for this starts at $49.  The pricing is dynamic.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the pay / benefit advantage to patrol at Sunday River or Bretton Woods vs Atticat?
> 
> Last year lots of people made it excuses that staffing was hard during the pandemic.  But, my view of the competition was that while perhaps not staffed to the levels they normally would be, they were all doing so much better than Atticat.





crystalmountainskier said:


> Has nothing to do with J1s. The work and travel program restarted months ago. The problem now is visa processing time and access to vaccines in some of the source countries.


It takes about 5 months....
We hired a Guatemalan MD/PhD in May. 
Took us 2 months to get the "paperwork" done. The it took the US State Dept another 3 months to process his work visa.
He just arrived this past Monday 11/1


----------



## drjeff (Nov 6, 2021)

Vail does offer some solid employee benefits... just saying... (not that I *might* be learning about them first hand right now....)


----------



## NYDB (Nov 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Vail does offer some solid employee benefits... just saying... (not that I *might* be learning about them first hand right now....)


Are you exiting the dental practice to bump chairs this winter?


----------



## ss20 (Nov 6, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Are you exiting the dental practice to bump chairs this winter?



I wouldn't be surprised if @drjeff took over a snow cat grooming position


----------



## Zand (Nov 6, 2021)

Nah...hes definitely gonna be in the parking toll booth.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 6, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Are you exiting the dental practice to bump chairs this winter?



Negative on leaving the primary job!

Going to be part of the events crew to help set up and run the various on snow events/races/competitions associated with the alpine training center and the ski school.

Those programs have given my 2 kids so much over the last 15yrs or so, and the events crew is short staffed, so I felt the time was right to start giving something back to the youth programs at Mount Snow and help the young athletes involved with the programs have as many events as possible in a typical season.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 7, 2021)

Kudos Dr Jeff!

I have heard that the benefits aren't too shabby even for part time employees.  I've considered a part time gig there but I work too much for my primary job


----------



## ss20 (Nov 7, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Kudos Dr Jeff!
> 
> I have heard that the benefits aren't too shabby even for part time employees.  I've considered a part time gig there but I work too much for my primary job



Back in the Peaks days all their ski school pay info and benefits was available online.  It was a pretty decent package from what I remember.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 8, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Back in the Peaks days all their ski school pay info and benefits was available online.  It was a pretty decent package from what I remember.


I wonder how it compares from Peaks versus Vail


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 8, 2021)

Lot of jobs posted at Stowe.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 8, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> I wonder how it compares from Peaks versus Vail



I only have a couple connections to instructors in Vail-owned schools but I hear it's pretty bad.  One guy who taught exclusively children told me they doubled class sizes and took away the apprentices/assistants (a lifesaver if you've got a group of 6+ 4/5yo's.).  He did one or two years at Okemo after Vail took over for the pass then walked away after something like 8 or 9 years total at the mountain.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 8, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I only have a couple connections to instructors in Vail-owned schools but I hear it's pretty bad.  One guy who taught exclusively children told me they doubled class sizes and took away the apprentices/assistants (a lifesaver if you've got a group of 6+ 4/5yo's.).  He did one or two years at Okemo after Vail took over for the pass then walked away after something like 8 or 9 years total at the mountain.


35+ years here.
      Stratton, SR, Attitash & Wildcat.  
      Walked away after 2 seasons w/ Vail.....


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 8, 2021)




----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 8, 2021)

wow that picture is huge.  you must really hate vail


----------



## gittist (Nov 8, 2021)

Is anyone surprised that the web cams aren't up for either Attitash or WildCat? I wonder if all of the I.T. people left too?


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 12, 2021)




----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 12, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 52183


Imagine you take a shit job just for the free pass and they pull this bs. I’d quit that day.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Nov 12, 2021)

A dumb move when there is that much competition for ski area employees. Can't imagine it will make much difference in crowding. Want to fix crowding, keep the reservation system.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 12, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> A dumb move when there is that much competition for ski area employees. Can't imagine it will make much difference in crowding. Want to fix crowding, _double the pass price_.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 12, 2021)

eh, i love finding fault with vail but that one seems pretty sensible. until they have the terrain and lifts open to spread the crowd the customer should come first.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Nov 12, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Fixed it for you.


They want to keep their business profitable


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> eh, i love finding fault with vail but that one seems pretty sensible. until they have the terrain and lifts open to spread the crowd the customer should come first.


That line of thinking is one of the reasons why so many places can’t find employees.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 12, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> That line of thinking is one of the reasons why so many places can’t find employees.


Exactly. Especially Vail, treat your employees right and they will stick with you. Not the thing to do when there is a worker shortage at the mountains.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 12, 2021)

Its hard for them to see the forrest...for the trees. They have a culture...just not a very good one. Many companies lose employees all the time..yet have no idea or just don't care why.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 12, 2021)

Especially since it really doesn't cost them anything at all..  The lifts are spinning already.
 How to build morale early season, the Vail way.
No wonder I left.
Will enjoy a season off


----------



## drjeff (Nov 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> eh, i love finding fault with vail but that one seems pretty sensible. until they have the terrain and lifts open to spread the crowd the customer should come first.



There were episodes like this at various of their resorts last season during the initial weeks when terrain was limited, so it's not like this is something new this year


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There were episodes like this at various of their resorts last season during the initial weeks when terrain was limited, so it's not like this is something new this year


No but it is still vail not anyone else…

…so vail sucks


----------



## snoseek (Nov 12, 2021)

drjeff said:


> There were episodes like this at various of their resorts last season during the initial weeks when terrain was limited, so it's not like this is something new this year


As a past employee this happened several times to us and  it wasn't a big deal because everyone was mostly busting ass during those early season weekend. I recall bitching to the gm on that Sunday after Thanksgiving and he let us ski


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 12, 2021)

It's like the 15 minutes that the Caddies get to use the pool in Caddyshack.

Vail = Bushwood.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 12, 2021)

Only this time, the doodie isn't a Baby Ruth bar


----------



## FBGM (Nov 12, 2021)




----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 13, 2021)

gittist said:


> In regards to "Is the answer, masshole?"   Close. In the 1960s the correct answer was a Massachusetts driver. In today's world it's not so clean cut as there are a few state competing for the top spot .


Gotta love Maine folks, many who have more tats than teeth, but always could hold a grudge against massholes though!


----------



## urungus (Nov 13, 2021)

Massachusetts has the best drivers in the nation








						States With the Worst Drivers – 2021 Edition
					

Whether you were once cut off by a car with Florida license plates or mercilessly tailgated by a driver in New York, we’ve all had bad experiences with drivers from other states (or our own) at some point. Besides the … Continue reading → The post States With the Worst Drivers – 2021 Edition...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2021)

urungus said:


> Massachusetts has the best drivers in the nation



By far the worst drivers in the nation.  We have a thing here whereby if we see a MA plate we give a WIDE birth.

They aint called Massholes for nothing.


----------



## PAabe (Nov 13, 2021)

Happy to see Pennsylvania taking 2nd best on that chart - may be slow and camp out in the left lane but at least we are too nice to cause major trouble... 

In defense of the left lane travelling, a lot of highways in the state lack merge areas for on ramps, or are 2-lanes and too crowded for people to merge on without getting into or staying in the left lane to let them do so

Actually all of the NE states are pretty low on that list


----------



## gittist (Nov 14, 2021)

Another reason that a lot of PA people drive in the left lane is because the right lane is all tore up or full or pot holes 6 inches deep.  And in regards to the Maine folks comment, not only am I a Mainer living in PA, but an islander to boot!  So all you off-islanders....


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Happy to see Pennsylvania taking 2nd best on that chart - may be slow and camp out in the left lane but at least we are too nice to cause major trouble...
> 
> In defense of the left lane travelling, a lot of highways in the state lack merge areas for on ramps, or are 2-lanes and too crowded for people to merge on without getting into or staying in the left lane to let them do so
> 
> Actually all of the NE states are pretty low on that list



No excuses for left lane lounging.  And PA driver's are second only to Maine driver's with that horrendous habit.


----------



## Edd (Nov 14, 2021)

gittist said:


> Another reason that a lot of PA people drive in the left lane is because the right lane is all tore up or full or pot holes 6 inches deep.  And in regards to the Maine folks comment, not only am I a Mainer living in PA, but an islander to boot!  So all you off-islanders....


Which island?


----------



## skiur (Nov 14, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> By far the worst drivers in the nation.  We have a thing here whereby if we see a MA plate we give a WIDE birth.
> 
> They aint called Massholes for nothing.



Aren't you from Jersey?  Pot kettle.  Friggin jersey drivers.


----------



## gittist (Nov 14, 2021)

Edd said:


> Which island?


Deer Isle.  Used to ski Gunstock when we lived in the Kittery area, plus Wildcat when the Red Hook brewery ran the buses up and the total price was less than a lift ticket at the slope.


----------



## Edd (Nov 14, 2021)

gittist said:


> Deer Isle.  Used to ski Gunstock when we lived in the Kittery area, plus Wildcat when the Red Hook brewery ran the buses up and the total price was less than a lift ticket at the slope.


Haven’t been to that one. Spent 5 days on Islesboro in September 2020. Sure didn’t have to worry about crowds  at that point.

Spent a week staying in Rockport and and mostly Blue Hill this year, exploring the small towns on the coast. That area just blows me away.


----------



## gittist (Nov 14, 2021)

My daughter and her family live a little north of the Bangor airport. When come to visit we have to hit Crosby's in Bucksport and then the Bagaduce drive in for clams. Deer Isle is only about a half hour from Blue Hill, just follow Rt 15.  Hopefully the bridge hasn't fallen down yet.. That was the big scare when they were deciding where to build the new high school.


----------



## Edd (Nov 14, 2021)

gittist said:


> My daughter and her family live a little north of the Bangor airport. When come to visit we have to hit Crosby's in Bucksport and then the Bagaduce drive in for clams. Deer Isle is only about a half hour from Blue Hill, just follow Rt 15.  Hopefully the bridge hasn't fallen down yet.. That was the big scare when they were deciding where to build the new high school.


Shit, once you mentioned the bridge I realized I did go there this year. We pulled over and took pics of it. I was really taken with Stonington. Seemed like a slice of heaven but of course I’m seeing it through tourist eyes.


----------



## catskillman (Nov 14, 2021)

Hunter has restricted employee access to ski long before Vail bought them.  Not just early but late season.  

Not a VailFail only for sure.....


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 15, 2021)

CT is 44th on the list..holy shit...I think its the worst I've lived in...


----------



## snoseek (Nov 15, 2021)

So who's ready for wildcats opening day Friday? I bet they're blasting the shit out of the mountain right now. They must be keeping the webcams turned off to surprise the competition right?


----------



## Edd (Nov 15, 2021)

I've looked into Wildcat's schedule this coming season in various ways, and have been unable to get an answer from them.  So, I've become pessimistic that they'll be open 7 days/week as they normally are.  Hoping against hope, at this point.


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 15, 2021)

Vail doesn't appear to be taking advantage of any snowmaking window early this week to have a chance to make their planned opening dates this coming weekend. They suck.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> I've looked into Wildcat's schedule this coming season in various ways, and have been unable to get an answer from them.  So, I've become pessimistic that they'll be open 7 days/week as they normally are.  Hoping against hope, at this point.


Okemo, Stowe and mt snow all list their openings days but not atitash or wildcat, kinda weird if you ask me


----------



## skiur (Nov 15, 2021)

Hard to open when you have no snowmakers working at the mountain!


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Okemo, Stowe and mt snow all list their openings days but not atitash or wildcat, kinda weird if you ask me


not that they're gonna stick to those


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 15, 2021)

skiur said:


> Hard to open when you have no snowmakers working at the mountain!


WC website used to say Fri 11/19 Opening Day.
Not anymore....  and their Events Page is completely empty.
Usually by now they got a few Pub listings and early season events.
Not a good sign...

Attitash Opening was previously Fri 12/3,  but they still have a ton of adds in The Sun and on the radio.
Course those adds are probably for both WC & Attitash at this very late stage of the game.

Oh well... The $299 Chamber of Commerce Pass dropped both Vail resorts for 21/22.
Now has Black, Cranmore, King Pine, Shawnee & BW - 5 visits each.
Plus all the local 6 XC trail centers.


----------



## Mainer (Nov 15, 2021)

Wildcat just updated their Facebook page. Waiting on Mother Nature, they’ll keep us posted. They probably haven’t blown anything.
  The mwv chamber didn’t drop attitash/wildcat. Vail refused to join it, not part of their business model. That’s what the lady there told me.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

Mainer said:


> The mwv chamber didn’t drop attitash/wildcat. Vail refused to join it, not part of their business model. That’s what the lady there told me.


Right just like they are not part of Ski NH or the Colorado equivalent. Strange they are part of SKIVT though.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 15, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Wildcat just updated their Facebook page. Waiting on Mother Nature, they’ll keep us posted. They probably haven’t blown anything.
> The mwv chamber didn’t drop attitash/wildcat. Vail refused to join it, not part of their business model. That’s what the lady there told me.



Not exactly...

A lot of MWV businesses have been hurt by Vail's "lack of effort" ove the last 2 ski seasons.
Local business owners do NOT want to participate in anything that benefits Vail.
This point was clearly stated at the Conway CofC mtng earlier this year.
Truth is - If Vail was on the Chamber Pass, then the business owners & employees just wouldn't buy it.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 15, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Okemo, Stowe and mt snow all list their openings days but not atitash or wildcat, kinda weird if you ask me





spiderpig said:


> not that they're gonna stick to those






Stowe and Okemo already pushing it back per their posts on social media...


----------



## Mainer (Nov 15, 2021)

I had this exact talk with Janice last May after she met with all the ski areas. She said vail didn’t want to do it, her words were it goes against vail business model. My business joins the chamber just for the ski pass. Maybe business owners didn’t want vail but vail doesn’t want to join the chamber either.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 15, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I had this exact talk with Janice last May after she met with all the ski areas. She said vail didn’t want to do it, her words were it goes against vail business model. My business joins the chamber just for the ski pass. Maybe business owners didn’t want vail but vail doesn’t want to join the chamber either.


No doubt...


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> View attachment 52201
> View attachment 52202
> 
> Stowe and Okemo already pushing it back per their posts on social media...


Yes, they have finally finished the rounds on social media with Mount Snow a few minutes ago. It would have been nice to see them actually try this week.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 15, 2021)

Im calling it now. Cannon will open with multiple routes before attitash or wildcat turns their first chairs


----------



## Mainer (Nov 15, 2021)

Cranmore opened before wildcat last year.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 15, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Yes, they have finally finished the rounds on social media with Mount Snow a few minutes ago. It would have been nice to see them actually try this week.


60 and rain Thursday after only at best 2 nights of non optimal snowmaking this week, there was no way they were making Friday, at Mount Snow at least


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2021)

As a Wildcat refugee, I know understand how a Cleveland Browns fan must have felt in 95.  Rob Katz is basically Art Modell.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Im calling it now. Cannon will open with multiple routes before attitash or wildcat turns their first chairs


Not much of a call.


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 15, 2021)

Per my contact at Okemo: they have a grand total of 4 snowmakers. Other positions are now being "drafted" for lack of a better word.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Per my contact at Okemo: they have a grand total of 4 snowmakers. Other positions are now being "drafted" for lack of a better word.





Newpylong said:


> Per my contact at Okemo: they have a grand total of 4 snowmakers. Other positions are now being "drafted" for lack of a better word.



In your experience, what would full staffing look like for a mountain that size?


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 16, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Not much of a call.


Would be something if Black opened before Attitash and/or Wildcat.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 16, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> In your experience, what would full staffing look like for a mountain that size?


Not a snow maker but I would assume..a hell of a lot more than that. A dozen?


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 16, 2021)

20+


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2021)

That's what I figured.  Wonder if Killington or Stratton are struggling as badly.  I also wonder what the pay disparity is if they are not having the same issue.    K does at least have the advantage of offering a longer employment season.   If I was interested in that kind of work, that would be my negotiating stance.   "If you want me to make snow for you, you better pay me X amount of dollars more than Killington because they're going to provide me work for an additional 3-5 weeks."


----------



## FBGM (Nov 16, 2021)

I wonder if resorts start heavily investing in auto technology. A lot already have, but this could kick that into gear more. But even if say Okemo was full auto, you still need more then 4 guys. Just with 2 shifts and days off. Hopefully they have a manager and supervisor that’s not included in that 4. Hope they like long hours and No days off…


----------



## drjeff (Nov 16, 2021)

FBGM said:


> I wonder if resorts start heavily investing in auto technology. A lot already have, but this could kick that into gear more. But even if say Okemo was full auto, you still need more then 4 guys. Just with 2 shifts and days off. Hopefully they have a manager and supervisor that’s not included in that 4. Hope they like long hours and No days off…



100% agree!

And even if it is a crew of 4 at Okemo, considering for safety reasons they send them out onto the hill in teams of 2, that's basically 1 team of day shift and 1 team of night shift.  Then factor in the amount of time it takes to set up and/or shut down a trail, let alone the time needed for gun checks on a trail they're making snow on, and that for sure is the recipe for decreased potential quantity of production both in terms of trails they can run the system on simultaneously, as well as likey total number of hours per week they might be able to make snow should mother nature feel like cooperating. 

just not a good scenario, and one that I am guessing is more common than the abnormal across the industry!

Hope FGBM that you were able to find the equipment that you were looking for for the mountain you're at and don't have to deal with such a crazy labor shortage!


----------



## FBGM (Nov 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 100% agree!
> 
> And even if it is a crew of 4 at Okemo, considering for safety reasons they send them out onto the hill in teams of 2, that's basically 1 team of day shift and 1 team of night shift.  Then factor in the amount of time it takes to set up and/or shut down a trail, let alone the time needed for gun checks on a trail they're making snow on, and that for sure is the recipe for decreased potential quantity of production both in terms of trails they can run the system on simultaneously, as well as likey total number of hours per week they might be able to make snow should mother nature feel like cooperating.
> 
> ...


I have enough “okay working equipment” for what I need. I was looking for some insurance, haha. 

We are so small I can run with 2-3 people. That I have staffed luckily. I’ll turn on this Friday night for the first time. With just me here. Few hundred GPM, few fans. More of a test at temps for what looks like a better window following week.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 16, 2021)

FBGM said:


> I have enough “okay working equipment” for what I need. I was looking for some insurance, haha.
> 
> We are so small I can run with 2-3 people. That I have staffed luckily. I’ll turn on this Friday night for the first time. With just me here. Few hundred GPM, few fans. More of a test at temps for what looks like a better window following week.


Best of luck to you!  Hope you don't suddenly find yourself looking for an excavator and the welding equipment during your test!


----------



## snoseek (Nov 16, 2021)

Wildcat got theyre cams working and are blowing snow. Looks like to the lookers right instead of Lynx which i can get behind


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 16, 2021)

20..and they have 4...oy


----------



## FBGM (Nov 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Best of luck to you!  Hope you don't suddenly find yourself looking for an excavator and the welding equipment during your test!


Have it ready haha. That’s also my job.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

__





						Vail Resorts Announces Enhancements to the Guest Experience For 2021-22 Winter Season | Vail Resorts, Inc.
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



					investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## drjeff (Nov 16, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't say that I disagree with the concept of "limiting" day ticket sales during the 3 major Holiday periods of the season.  Who knows exactly to what extent they will limit day ticket sales though and if it will be a significant amount to actually make tangible difference with respect to lift lines those weekends? 

Comes across as a "perk" to passholders, even though it's ultimately something to drive more Epic Pass Product sales at its core


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 16, 2021)

Does anyone know if J1's are back this season?


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Does anyone know if J1's are back this season?


I think they are @drjeff would probably know.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 16, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Does anyone know if J1's are back this season?



It would seem so from a recent article about Sugarbush and MRG in the local MRV newspaper:


> Staffing remains a challenge for all local businesses and Sugarbush has managed to hire J1 and H2B visa holders to help fill jobs. He said just over 70% of open jobs had been accepted by an applicant.



Whether Vail managed to bring in any J1s though for their northeast resorts I have no idea...


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> It would seem so from a recent article about Sugarbush and MRG in the local MRV newspaper:
> 
> 
> Whether Vail managed to bring in any J1s though for their northeast resorts I have no idea...


I think they did at Mt. Snow cause theres been a few looking for housing on the facebook page.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 16, 2021)

The problem is housing.  Vail pays crap, and the rents are high in the MWV.

Places like Saddleback  are building or converting condo's to be employee housing.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 16, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> I think they are @drjeff would probably know.



I know Mount Snow has J1's this season. No clue how many and how that number compares with past years? So I would presume that if an Eastern Vail Resort had some J1's in the past, that they will this Winter as well.


----------



## gittist (Nov 19, 2021)

NEW Vail Operating Plan?  I've seen the headlines but has anyone seen the actual NEW operating plan?  I'd like to look it over knowing that I can do anything about it so if you could share where to read it?  I expect it'll be like going to the doctor and getting your prostate checked.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 19, 2021)

gittist said:


> NEW Vail Operating Plan?  I've seen the headlines but has anyone seen the actual NEW operating plan?  I'd like to look it over knowing that I can do anything about it so if you could share where to read it?  I expect it'll be like going to the doctor and getting your prostate checked.


Not sure anyone is going to find any specifics on the actual plan. However, they mentioned a new load and unloading process will be used at the lifts to reduce slows and stops. Can't imagine what the hell that means....


----------



## Dickc (Nov 19, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Not sure anyone is going to find any specifics on the actual plan. However, they mentioned a new load and unloading process will be used at the lifts to reduce slows and stops. Can't imagine what the hell that means....


Ambassadors with bull whips???


----------



## gittist (Nov 19, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Ambassadors with bull whips???


And the chairlift will forcibly eject you on the uphill end so there won't be a problem with people not clearing the unloading area or staying on the chair so long that it trips the safety switch.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 19, 2021)

Attitash just had a new trail map posted.  Check our the new "$referred $arking $area".  This is Attitash folks.  Not $towe or $now.



			https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/maps/20211119_AT_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf


----------



## xlr8r (Nov 19, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash just had a new trail map posted.  Check our the new "$referred $arking $area".  This is Attitash folks.  Not $towe or $now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/maps/20211119_AT_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf


I think that area has been premium parking before this year, It is not a very big lot.  Looks like Illusion is back to being a black diamond


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash just had a new trail map posted.  Check our the new "$referred $arking $area".  This is Attitash folks.  Not $towe or $now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/maps/20211119_AT_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf



Not that they were named or abundant, but none of the tree skiing is marked on this map. 

Also, what's up with the Bar at the top of Tight Rope ?


----------



## thebigo (Nov 19, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash just had a new trail map posted.  Check our the new "$referred $arking $area".  This is Attitash folks.  Not $towe or $now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/maps/20211119_AT_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf


That has been paid parking for a number of years. Figured vail would make the upper bridge one way, that has got to be one of the more dangerous intersections in the east. They also took the trees off the map. What the hell is the bar at the top of the old double?

Edit - new park on moonbeam would indicate they plan to run Kachina.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 19, 2021)

thebigo said:


> ................What the hell is the bar at the top of the old double?


You grab your Moat Slow Chair Tripel there for your next triple ride up!


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not that they were named or abundant, but none of the tree skiing is marked on this map.
> 
> Also, what's up with the Bar at the top of Tight Rope ?


I wouldn’t mind alot of mountains removing some glades from their maps.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> I wouldn’t mind alot of mountains removing some glades from their maps.



I don't disagree.  I'll one up it. Take away all marked glade entrances too. Mark the boundaries of the ski area only and just let people ski wherever they want inbounds. 

I know that makes the ski patrol shudder and lawyers salivate, but fuck it


----------



## abc (Nov 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I know that makes the ski patrol shudder and lawyers salivate, but fuck it


Actually, from talking to some lawyers, the less the mountain do, the less responsibility they have. 

So, leaving glades off the map would make their lawyers sleep easier.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 19, 2021)

So did Wildcat open today?


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 19, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash just had a new trail map posted.  Check our the new "$referred $arking $area".  This is Attitash folks.  Not $towe or $now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/maps/20211119_AT_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf


No more James Niehues hand painted maps? A sad day indeed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> No more James Niehues hand painted maps? A sad day indeed.



You didn't hear?  Vail bought James Niehues too.  Forced him to start using a computer. More efficient and cheaper.  You think they can afford paying James to hand paint maps for all their resorts?


----------



## Dickc (Nov 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You didn't hear?  Vail bought James Niehues too.  Forced him to start using a computer. More efficient and cheaper.  You think they can afford paying James to hand paint maps for all their resorts?


Oh, I’m sure they can afford him, the real question is do they want to pay him………. Does not fit _Vails_ model of creating a greater experience for the skier.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually, from talking to some lawyers, the less the mountain do, the less responsibility they have.
> 
> So, leaving glades off the map would make their lawyers sleep easier.


As a laywer in NH, trust me, the state has insulated ski areas from liability to such a degree you have a better chance at getting struck by lightning 15 times in a a day than sucessfully suing a NH ski area for any negligence based claim. Their lawyers sleep very very well.


----------



## abc (Nov 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You didn't hear?  Vail bought James Niehues too.  Forced him to start using a computer. More efficient and cheaper.  You think they can afford paying James to hand paint maps for all their resorts?


Well, if he's agreed to be bought, he's not being "forced" to do anything, is he? 

Clearly, they can "afford" what he asked. Maybe he didn't feel nearly as strongly about hand painting than the rest of you?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Well, if he's agreed to be bought, he's not being "forced" to do anything, is he?
> 
> Clearly, they can "afford" what he asked. Maybe he didn't feel nearly as strongly about hand painting than the rest of you?



Have another cup of coffee and settle down

It was a joke abc.   

My lord there is no statement sacred enough to be above your uncontrollable urge to be a contrarian and argue.


----------



## abc (Nov 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> It was a joke abc.
> 
> My lord there is no statement sacred enough to be above your uncontrollable urge to be a contrarian and argue.


Clearly, you can't take what you dish out

That being the behavior of the moderator, little surprise to the super welcoming atmosphere of this site.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Clearly, you can't take what you dish out



Lol

You crack me up


----------



## JimG. (Nov 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Mark the boundaries of the ski area only and just let people ski wherever they want inbounds.


Pretty sure a lot of people do that already whether they are capable or not.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 21, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Pretty sure a lot of people do that already whether they are capable or not.



They do.  But I'm more talking about removing marked glades completely.  Off the map and no official names / entrances.  If you know, you know


----------



## urungus (Nov 21, 2021)

Seems dangerous to remove all glades from the map, I like to have some guidance about which areas are appropriate for tree skiing, are regularly cleared of debris, are patrolled, etc.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 21, 2021)

the trees at Attitash are never open when i happen to be there. I'm guessing its a combo of lack of patrol, lack of summer clean up and lack of snow.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 21, 2021)

snoseek said:


> the trees at Attitash are never open when i happen to be there. I'm guessing its a combo of lack of patrol, lack of summer clean up and lack of snow.


Better marketing: “we are 100% open” (because the woods would be closed otherwise!)


----------



## Harvey (Nov 21, 2021)

Gore bases open percentage on trails and excludes the trees from the calculation.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 22, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Gore bases open percentage on trails and excludes the trees from the calculation.


most places do


----------



## Harvey (Nov 22, 2021)

OK with me. Not looking for any disincentive for mgmt to add trees.


----------



## machski (Nov 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> most places do


Really?  SR and Boyne's do not, glades are considered marked trails and counted as such.  Same with Cannon.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 22, 2021)

machski said:


> Really?  SR and Boyne's do not, glades are considered marked trails and counted as such.  Same with Cannon.


And that's why SR is rarely 100% open any more.
They wrestled w/ that decision for years. Spruce Cliffs too.  
 They hated that  only a few trails were stopping them from the prestigious  100% Open banner


----------



## snoseek (Nov 22, 2021)

Any guesses as to when vail will open up something in nh? It looks like they got some snow down on the cat and have some decent snowmaking windows. Will they try for the weekend, soft open on the midweek or wait till the weekend after thanksgiving?


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 22, 2021)

Drove by wildcat yesterday. Looked like they have been trying to blow snow on upper lynx-> middle wildcat-> bobcat. The area around the base and bobcat were >50% grass, couldn't tell what snow cover was like higher up. 

I wonder if something is wrong with the snowmaking system on middle/lower lynx?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2021)

That's weird.  I do think the Catapult side holds snow better for late season, but it's weird they're doing Upper Lynx and then crossing over for the lower half of the mountain


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 22, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> I wonder if something is wrong with the snowmaking system on middle/lower lynx?


Yes, well kinda',  they only have 2-3 guys to work it, compared to normally 8-10 for the early season push.
 Hopefully, Fri/Sat


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 23, 2021)

Another In Your Face Vail as BW Opens  Friday, Once again, well before WildCat..

Attitash is a lost cause, as they've barely  even blown the mice out so far

 Lookin forward to Thanksgiving at The White Mt Resort, and Fri/Sat @ BW
Bring it on...


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 23, 2021)

Looks like Attitash is blowing some snow on parts of the snow belt, stoneybrook, and far out!

The Yankee was spinning this week as well.


----------



## machski (Nov 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> And that's why SR is rarely 100% open any more.
> They wrestled w/ that decision for years. Spruce Cliffs too.
> They hated that  only a few trails were stopping them from the prestigious  100% Open banner


That's a bit off point.  SR gets to 100% with the glades quite often.  The trail that throws them off is usually Northern Exposure under the NPX rather than the glades.  I have noticed that if only the lower entrances to Chutzpah and/or Hardball on WC are open, they still consider that the entire glade open.  Even though it is only half and the best parts of each are off the summit.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 23, 2021)

machski said:


> That's a bit off point.  SR gets to 100% with the glades quite often.  The trail that throws them off is usually Northern Exposure under the NPX rather than the glades.  I have noticed that if only the lower entrances to Chutzpah and/or Hardball on WC are open, they still consider that the entire glade open.  Even though it is only half and the best parts of each are off the summit.



Off Point ????   Sorry Mach, But that is exactly why Spruce Cliffs was removed...  
        Northern Exposure was also a part of that conversation at the time.
 There's people in mgmt (DB) who have wanted it gone for years


----------



## machski (Nov 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Off Point ????   Sorry Mach, But that is exactly why Spruce Cliffs was removed...
> Northern Exposure was also a part of that conversation at the time.
> There's people in mgmt (DB) who have wanted it gone for years


I knew about Spruce Cliffs.  That thing won't hold onto snow worth a lick unless it's 24 inches plus of glue.  Even then it gets skies down to rock face in days.  No doubt on NE as well, tough ground to cover up that low on the hill and exposed.  But the vast majority of glades aren't as problematic, perhaps except Hollywood that always seems to get wind scoured out.  Will have to see how Carumba handles the coming widening to accommodate the Jordan 8.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Another In Your Face Vail as BW Opens Friday, Once again, well before WildCat..


Does Vail care?


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 24, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Does Vail care?


Vail certainly does NOT care... but the 67% more people that bought Epic passes this season should.


----------



## Dickc (Nov 24, 2021)

Vail reminds me of Mel Brooks “Silent Movie” villain, that company called “Engulf and Devour”.


----------



## PAabe (Nov 24, 2021)

I lol'd a bit looking at Big Boulder's website


> *FIRST TO OPEN | LAST TO CLOSE*
> JFBB takes pride in being the first ski area to open in the state every year.


Wildcat has something similar


> Elevation Matters​Wildcat Mountain has historically been the first to open and the last to close in the state of New Hampshire. Our famously long season can be attributed to the hard work our snowmaking team puts in


Re attitash


> impeccable grooming



lmao


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 24, 2021)

Roundtop fired up the snowmaking system last night.  sort of surprised as its going to warm up and they aren't scheduled to open for 2.5 weeks.


----------



## abc (Nov 24, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Wildcat has something similar
> 
> 
> > Elevation Matters​Wildcat Mountain has historically been the first to open and the last to close in the state of New Hampshire. Our famously long season can be attributed to the hard work our snowmaking team puts in


Truth in advertising? Wildcat was not the first open nor the last to close last year. Doesn't look like they'll make the first to open this year either...


----------



## gittist (Nov 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Truth in advertising? Wildcat was not the first open nor the last to close last year. Doesn't look like they'll make the first to open this year either...


Truth in advertising? Who are you kidding?


----------



## PAabe (Nov 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Truth in advertising? Wildcat was not the first open nor the last to close last year. Doesn't look like they'll make the first to open this year either...


yup and last year Big Boulder was not the last to close (several were open longer) nor were they first to open (Blue, which is at a far lower elevation and is further south) in PA.


----------



## abc (Nov 24, 2021)

gittist said:


> Truth in advertising? Who are you kidding?


I'm not kidding. A big company like Vail is expected to watch what they're putting out. It's a lot more visible than some Mom-n-Pop place in the thick of woods.


----------



## gittist (Nov 24, 2021)

No, you got it backwards. Mom & Pops would be slammed.


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 24, 2021)

Nice skiing at sunday river today. Barker quad was open and spruce/south ridge should be open by the weekend. Snow guns were blasting all over the east side of the mtn when I left. Driving by wildcat was a different story. No active snowmaking and lots of grass. This is a sad weekend for skiing in the MWV.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 24, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I lol'd a bit looking at Big Boulder's website
> 
> Wildcat has something similar
> 
> ...


Ha Ha Ha....
  Considering they both have adds everywhere for Snow Making, Groomers, Lift Ops., Patrol, Ski Instructors


----------



## thebigo (Nov 24, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Nice skiing at sunday river today. Barker quad was open and spruce/south ridge should be open by the weekend. Snow guns were blasting all over the east side of the mtn when I left. Driving by wildcat was a different story. No active snowmaking and lots of grass. This is a sad weekend for skiing in the MWV.


Day number five was fun - great day at sr, only took one picture but that is an eight year old girl having a great day with dad. Last year at this time we were epic passholders.


----------



## gittist (Nov 25, 2021)

Add Gore to another place open before any Vail property in the northeast.  Yup, great skier eperience! But we'll all be safe!


----------



## abc (Nov 26, 2021)

gittist said:


> No, you got it backwards. Mom & Pops would be slammed.


???


----------



## gittist (Nov 26, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm not kidding. A big company like Vail is expected to watch what they're putting out. It's a lot more visible than some Mom-n-Pop place in the thick of woods.





gittist said:


> No, you got it backwards. Mom & Pops would be slammed.





abc said:


> ???


Sorry for the confusion by not quoting the posting immediately before mine.  To clarify my point is that a Mom & Pop business is more likely to be slammed for misleading or false advertising than a big corporation.  Mom & Pops have far less resources to fight any allegations than someone like Vail.


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 26, 2021)

Blacking out northeast value passholders for opening days despite opening a week late #sucks


----------



## drjeff (Nov 26, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Blacking out northeast value passholders for opening days despite opening a week late #sucks



It is what it is. Weather regardless this early season, when folks bought their NE value passes, they knew this weekend was blocked out. Heck, if mother nature hadn't cooperated with snowmaking temps the last few days there may not of been any Eatern Epic Resorts open today. 

Like it or not, it's not like Vail suddenly blocked these dates out on certain passes in just the last few days


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 26, 2021)

drjeff said:


> It is what it is. Weather regardless this early season, when folks bought their NE value passes, they knew this weekend was blocked out. Heck, if mother nature hadn't cooperated with snowmaking temps the last few days there may not of been any Eatern Epic Resorts open today.
> 
> Like it or not, it's not like Vail suddenly blocked these dates out on certain passes in just the last few days


Well they conveniently forgot last season, at least at Okemo.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 26, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Well they conveniently forgot last season, at least at Okemo.


Sorry bud, I want vail to go out of business and leave new england as much as the next skier but expecting them to waive blackouts on a dirt cheap pass during opening weekend is a bit much.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Nov 26, 2021)

spiderpig said:


> Blacking out northeast value passholders for opening days despite opening a week late #sucks


You chose to buy a pass with blackout dates clearly outlined.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Sorry bud, I want vail to go out of business and leave new england as much as the next skier but expecting them to waive blackouts on a dirt cheap pass during opening weekend is a bit much.


This skier, does not want vail to go out of business or leave new England, I am very happy With vail and the epic pass.  Looking forward to more ski areas joining the vail family


----------



## FBGM (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> This skier, does not want vail to go out of business or leave new England, I am very happy With vail and the epic pass.  Looking forward to more ski areas joining the vail family


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> This skier, does not want vail to go out of business or leave new England, I am very happy With vail and the epic pass.  Looking forward to more ski areas joining the vail family


What are you happy with besides the Walmart level prices?


----------



## RichT (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> This skier, does not want vail to go out of business or leave new England, I am very happy With vail and the epic pass.  Looking forward to more ski areas joining the vail family


He don't know to much do he?????????


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 26, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> You chose to buy a pass with blackout dates clearly outlined.


Yes, I also chose not to ski there today so it's no problem

Edit: somehow, you were able to use a 50% off ticket from your pass today though


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> What are you happy with besides the Walmart level prices?


The new lifts coming in, the pass that is good at east coast places, Midwest places, western ski areas, Canadian ski places


----------



## Edd (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> The new lifts coming in, the pass that is good at east coast places, Midwest places, western ski areas, Canadian ski places


Not a Wildcat skier?


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> The new lifts coming in, the pass that is good at east coast places, Midwest places, western ski areas, Canadian ski places


Shortened seasons. Huge reduction in snowmaking (even at places like stowe). Cutting kids after school programs. Treat their employees like garbage. Vail cannot go out of business fast enough.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 26, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Shortened seasons. Huge reduction in snowmaking (even at places like stowe). Cutting kids after school programs. Treat their employees like garbage. Vail cannot go out of business fast enough.


Exactly, and the more resorts they own the worse it will get.


----------



## PAabe (Nov 26, 2021)

Walmart level prices only apply to the passes.  Day tickets and especially night tickets have been increased a lot.  Elimination of night passes, stopped participating in statewide 4th & 5th grade ski and ride pass, eliminated advantage cards, withdrew from regional ski cards and parks and rec. tickets


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not a Wildcat skier?


Clearly. I sent them a mssg today inquiring about opening and I got nothing


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not a Wildcat skier?


Only been to wildcat once, but coming up this winter some time


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Only been to wildcat once, but coming up this winter some time


Please don't.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Shortened seasons. Huge reduction in snowmaking (even at places like stowe). Cutting kids after school programs. Treat their employees like garbage. Vail cannot go out of business fast enough.


Don’t hold hold your breath while you are waiting for vail go out of business, although Peter lynch of fidelity fame, one of his rules in investing is buy a company that any old idiot can run because sooner or later an idiot will be running it, so I guess if you wait around long enough on vail, the lynch rule will probably happen


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Only been to wildcat once, but coming up this winter some time


If they ever open


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Don’t hold hold your breath while you are waiting for vail go out of business, although Peter lynch of fidelity fame, one of his rules in investing is buy a company that any old idiot can run because sooner or later an idiot will be running it, so I guess if you wait around long enough on vail, the lynch rule will probably happen


See American ski company. Exact same business model. Works for a few years until enough skiers get sick of terrible experiences and stop buying passes.


----------



## Edd (Nov 26, 2021)

This is the year for Wildcat and Vail for me. If they fuck it up (likely) than I’ll move on. It takes a special type of asshole company to fuck up Wildcat, which is a relatively simple ski area. I doubt there’s enough pissed off Wildcat regulars to put a blip on Vail’s radar but, if they ruin it, I hope the industry buzz shames them as they deserve to be shamed.


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

They will keep trying to get more and more profitable by tactics like further cuts to snowmaking/season length and increasing the number of resorts they charge for parking at. It will work out financially for a while but skiers will get increasingly pissed at them. They will eventually implode as people realize how terrible their skiing experience is but it will get worse before that. There are not enough gapers to sustain vail indefinitely. Especially since they are reducing the number of future skiers by their cuts to kids programs.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> See American ski company. Exact same business model. Works for a few years until enough skiers get sick of terrible experiences and stop buying passes.


the only thing American ski company and vail have in common is vail owns a few ski resorts that were part of American ski company, check a couple of vails last 10Q/10k, they have over a billion in cash, spending up to 320 million on 19 lifts and other projects, may hit 2 million in season passes, the next 10Q will confirm this, a few weeks ago stock hit a new high,   Looks to me like vail is only getting stronger.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

Funny thing is if they announced they were selling it tomorrow the place would be fully staffed by the following weekend pandemic or not


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> the only thing American ski company and vail have in common is vail owns a few ski resorts that were part of American ski company, check a couple of vails last 10Q/10k, they have over a billion in cash, spending up to 320 million on 19 lifts and other projects, may hit 2 million in season passes, the next 10Q will confirm this, a few weeks ago stock hit a new high,   Looks to me like vail is only getting stronger.


Until they literally have no staff and no customers. I worked middle mgmt jobs for both companies and they were pretty close to me..

Edit. Asc actually paid alot.better come to think of it


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is the year for Wildcat and Vail for me. If they fuck it up (likely) than I’ll move on. It takes a special type of asshole company to fuck up Wildcat, which is a relatively simple ski area. I doubt there’s enough pissed off Wildcat regulars to put a blip on Vail’s radar but, if they ruin it, I hope the industry buzz shames them as they deserve to be shamed.


Edd, not a skier at wildcat, only know of what you guys say, but it does seem that wildcat turned into a disaster, but the Vermont areas I ski at, in my opinion, no different then previous owners


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Until they literally have no staff and no customers. I worked middle mgmt jobs for both companies and they were pretty close to me..
> 
> Edit. Asc actually paid alot.better come to think of it


Time will tell, but I don’t think vail/alterra are going away


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 26, 2021)

Alterra doesn't have the same issues as Vail does.  Every single one of their Northeast mountains are open this weekend.  Compare that to Vail. 

It only validates my choice in moving on from Wildcat.  Hopefully the debt load eventually catches up with Vail.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Time will tell, but I don’t think vail/alterra are going away


For now alterra seeks to have a better product imo. Just remember asc was a force to be reckoned with in the 90s. As soon as you go public rational long term planning goes out the window. What is vails end game here? Cut prices more to lure them back? It's not sustainable


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Edd, not a skier at wildcat, only know of what you guys say, but it does seem that wildcat turned into a disaster, but the Vermont areas I ski at, in my opinion, no different then previous owners


You must only ski a few weekends a year. All the Stowe locals I know are livid about the cuts to snowmaking and the shorter seasons. Snowmaking at Okemo and Mt Snow is also not what it once was.

Vail is getting stronger financially but there customer's hate them more and more. It will reach a breaking point. 

 Yes, Vail is much bigger than ASC, but a giant turd is still a turd.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Nov 26, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> If they ever open


NH has been crazy warm late this year. This week they will see some colder weather. hopefully its enough to start up the guns.

I have not been to WC since the early 1990s, definately making a trip or 2 up there this year.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> NH has been crazy warm late this year. This week they will see some colder weather. hopefully its enough to start up the guns.
> 
> I have not been to WC since the early 1990s, definately making a trip or 2 up there this year.


All of the northeast was in the same boat. Check out the Webcam for wildcat...they could open tomorrow.


----------



## abc (Nov 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Clearly. I sent them a mssg today inquiring about opening and I got nothing


Did you remember to include the (still current) web page from Wildcat on "first to open, last to close"?


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

abc said:


> Did you remember to include the (still current) web page from Wildcat on "first to open, last to close"?


These days they get beat by Wachusett. I belive thus will be the second year?

Honestly I they just said we don't do early season and opened later and stayed open later many would be on board. It's the empty marketing promises that piss me off.


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> These days they get beat by Wachusett. I belive thus will be the second year?
> 
> Honestly I they just said we don't do early season and opened later and stayed open later many would be on board. It's the empty marketing promises that piss me off.


The lift tickets page shows them closing April 10. So much for the classic one day wildcat one day tucks spring weekend


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> You must only ski a few weekends a year. All the Stowe locals I know are livid about the cuts to snowmaking and the shorter seasons. Snowmaking at Okemo and Mt Snow is also not what it once was.
> 
> Vail is getting stronger financially but there customer's hate them more and more. It will reach a breaking point.
> 
> Yes, Vail is much bigger than ASC, but a giant turd is still a turd.


I ski every weekend, and a couple weeks out west at epic/ mountain collective/Indy pass places


----------



## snoseek (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I ski every weekend, and a couple weeks out west at epic/ mountain collective/Indy pass places


They do a good job on their western mtns because money. Except kirkwood.

Thanks Jesus they never got abasin!


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 26, 2021)

Steven's pass has been vailed hard too: 

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/o...s-and-crystal-mountain-chart-divergent-paths/


----------



## PAabe (Nov 26, 2021)

Can't really blame weather since Loon and Bretton Woods are open now

And as much as I complain about KSL (child company of Alterra or something) taking over Blue and Camelback here, they have actually been very aggressive about season lengths still, and they really haven't jacked up day/night tickets or group rates yet.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I ski every weekend, and a couple weeks out west at epic/ mountain collective/Indy pass places


Vail will be bankrupt in five years.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Vail will be bankrupt in five years.


Do you have metrics for that or is that just a guess on your part?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> the only thing American ski company and vail have in common is vail owns a few ski resorts that were part of American ski company, check a couple of vails last 10Q/10k, they have over a billion in cash, spending up to 320 million on 19 lifts and other projects, may hit 2 million in season passes, the next 10Q will confirm this, a few weeks ago stock hit a new high, *  Looks to me like vail is only getting stronger.*



Every box acquisition strategy looks like that, until it doesn't.  There's nothing inventive about what Vail's doing, it's simply bolt-on acquisitions which are immediately accretive to earnings at the expense of increased debt.  Tale as old as time.  Eventually it implodes.  How long is the only mystery, 4 years, 7 years, 13 years...... who knows, but it will end poorly.   Look at Valeant Pharmaceuticals for a recent example of the Vail model.  Stock skyrocketed to > $200 before plummeting < $20.  Wall Street LOVES it, they should, just make sure you get your money out first.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> This skier, does not want vail to go out of business or leave new England, I am very happy With vail and the epic pass.  Looking forward to more ski areas joining the vail family


100% agree. As a family of 6 with Mtn home, trips out West each year and coming lift investments, I could not be happier with Vail. I'm thinking many folks perspectives here are from seats with views (industry vets, etc) I have not sat in so I respect your opinions.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> 100% agree. As a family of 6 with Mtn home, trips out West each year and coming lift investments, I could not be happier with Vail. I'm thinking many folks perspectives here are from seats with views (industry vets, etc) I have not sat in so I respect your opinions.


Who really knows, how this will play out but as a skier, and I never worked in the industry, mega passes are fantastic, I know their is problems finding help, employee housing, etc,  but it seems every industry has issues of some sort or another.  It will be fun watching this play out over the next five or more years, but every owner or gm that is on the storm skier podcast, they all sing the same song mega passes have not hurt them, their season pass sales are up, business is good,  looks like something is happening in the ski world, time will tell


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## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Every box acquisition strategy looks like that, until it doesn't.  There's nothing inventive about what Vail's doing, it's simply bolt-on acquisitions which are immediately accretive to earnings at the expense of increased debt.  Tale as old as time.  Eventually it implodes.  How long is the only mystery, 4 years, 7 years, 13 years...... who knows, but it will end poorly.   Look at Valeant Pharmaceuticals for a recent example of the Vail model.  Stock skyrocketed to > $200 before plummeting < $20.  Wall Street LOVES it, they should, just make sure you get your money out first.


Never heard of Valent pharmaceuticals, till now, but I do know the drug business is entirely different industry, comparing apples to oranges


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Never heard of Valent pharmaceuticals, till now, but I do know the drug business is entirely different industry, comparing apples to oranges



The industry doesn't matter, it's the roll-up strategy & its financial effect on net income which matters.  It's apples to apples.


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## Cobbold (Nov 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The industry doesn't matter, it's the roll-up strategy & its financial effect on net income which matters.  It's apples to apples.


if I was betting man, my bet would be  alterra buying jay peak. And vail buying the resorts of the Rockies.


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## ss20 (Nov 27, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> 100% agree. As a family of 6 with Mtn home, trips out West each year and coming lift investments, I could not be happier with Vail. I'm thinking many folks perspectives here are from seats with views (industry vets, etc) I have not sat in so I respect your opinions.



Vail properties are generally great to visit.  It's when you only ski one or two Vail mountains a season in the entire portfolio for 50+ days a season you see the flaws, or if you've been a passholder forever.


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## Mainer (Nov 27, 2021)

Vail and asc are not the same. I had the asc pass for years. Attitash under asc was one of the top mountains in nh. They blew a shit ton of snow and ran all the lifts. Attitash last year was probably one worst ski experience ever.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 27, 2021)

ss20 said:


> or if you've been a passholder forever.



Thats the key, people that have never seen it any other way love Vail because of the bargain basement prices.   If you've been a regular at an area for a while and Vail takes over, you can really see what a disaster it truly is


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

The whole megapass concept is pretty obvious. More resorts for the same (or even less) money.

It doesn't benefit those who ski only in their home mountain much. Unless the new pass price is less than their old single mountain price. It almost always brings some negatives. Just ask Jackson Hole or Big Sky skiers what IKON did to their mountain! That's regardless of the pass price. Not surprisingly, many who gone to those mountain for the first time thanks to the new pass thought they had the best experience ever! They were not being crashed into was "uncrowded" to them. The fact the powder got tracked out way faster due to the increased skier number is something they couldn't fathom.

But for people who travel to ski, the megapass's positive outweighs the negative. Substantial cost saving allow them to check out resorts that are out of reach before. Even if their previous favorite mountain got more crowded, it's an acceptable tradeoff.

The roll back of season and cancellation of programs in many of the newly acquired Vail properties, are only impacting a relatively small number of skiers. For example, I don't see Cobbold posting trip reports on opening days. So needless to say the delay open doesn't affect him. It's likely he wouldn't be impacted with the early closing either.

I have no skin in this game. I don't ski early season. I have no kids in after school programs. Yes, it would impact me when it comes to late season. But as I typically rotate over to IKON, even that part is covered. Most importantly, I don't have property in a location that's taken over by Vail. So whatever I don't like about Vail, I can simply go ski somewhere else! I'm not a Vail fan, but I'm not a Vail hater either. All these dire predictions of Vail going bankrupt are more wishful thinking than prediction based on reality. I'd probably be slightly happier if they are gone


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## machski (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> The whole megapass concept is pretty obvious. More resorts for the same (or even less) money.
> 
> It doesn't benefit those who ski only in their home mountain much. Unless the new pass price is less than their old single mountain price. It almost always brings some negatives. Just ask Jackson Hole or Big Sky skiers what IKON did to their mountain! That's regardless of the pass price. Not surprisingly, many who gone to those mountain for the first time thanks to the new pass thought they had the best experience ever! They were not being crashed into was "uncrowded" to them. The fact the powder got tracked out way faster due to the increased skier number is something they couldn't fathom.
> 
> ...


Look, places like Big Sky and Jackson Hole cannot blame the Ikon pass on their crowding alone.  I know that is a super popular target, but that is the truth.  In a vacuum with no other CHANGE at those 2 resorts in particular, maybe you could blame Ikon.  But neither have sat still the past decade and left old, slow lifts on the hill.  Or crummy diggs to sleep and apres in after.  Both have dumped a shit ton of $$$ into lodging, villages, Lifts (both have spent huge on lifts, with Big Sky pushing the technology envelope).  Much of that was in motion before Alterra even became to be.  Do you think Boyne or JHMR dumped all that investment $$ in to just continue to cater to a small local ski/ride crowd?  Come on, give it a rest and really look at business plans for these mountains.  Ikon is the big target, but many of these partner resorts have been moving to attract much larger visit #'s for decades even without the mega passes.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 27, 2021)

Adironrider claimed to have inside knowledge regarding JH skier/rider statistics both past & present, and he was adamant that it was 100% IKON's fault.


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## jaytrem (Nov 27, 2021)

As I've said before It all goes back to the mom test.  Call my mom and ask her if she has ever heard of aki area X.  If she has, don't go there, it will be too crowded.

And of course machski is correct, Jackson and Big Sky were spending like mad long before Ikon.  I'm sure Ikon didn't help, but the crowds were coming one way or another.


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

machski said:


> Ikon is the big target, but many of these partner resorts have been moving to attract much larger visit #'s for decades even without the mega passes.


They maybe "moving" towards that direction, it took IKON to exceed that goal!

There's no escaping the obvious and clear correlation. It may very well be that's the intention of the management. It may very well be that's why they joined Alterra. The result is clear, huge crowds from one year to the next with the introduction of IKON.


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## Mainer (Nov 27, 2021)

Jackson has been crowded for decades prior to ikon. When I lived in big sky, I couldn’t believe how much more crowded Jackson was than big sky. It was all moguls a day after a storm. Big sky took a few days before it got skied out. Now it’s all crowded everywhere ikon. 
   But next year I might go ikon just for the Shawnee/Sunday River combo. Wildcat/attitash is probably going to be a shit show again. I’m going to miss the kitty


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## urungus (Nov 27, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> As I've said before It all goes back to the mom test.  Call my mom and ask her if she has ever heard of aki area X.  If she has, don't go there, it will be too crowded.
> 
> And of course machski is correct, Jackson and Big Sky were spending like mad long before Ikon.  I'm sure Ikon didn't help, but the crowds were coming one way or another.



If they were “spending like mad *long before* Ikon”, but the excessive crowds didn’t arrive until after Ikon, it seems pretty obvious what the main problem is.


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## Edd (Nov 27, 2021)

urungus said:


> If they were “spending like mad *long before* Ikon”, but the excessive crowds didn’t arrive until after Ikon, it seems pretty obvious what the main problem is.


Ikon may have been the last straw, perhaps, but all of the investment mentioned was not done for the purpose of maintaining the status quo. It was to increase visits.


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> Ikon may have been the last straw, perhaps, but all of the investment mentioned was not done for the purpose of maintaining the status quo. It was to increase visits.


Every mountain wants "more" visitors. But how many can say they have an increase of 25% in one year? How about 50%? How about 100% for some days? (I don't know what the actual increase is, but it's not a small number)

"Last straw" is more like a "reinforced concrete beam"!


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## gittist (Nov 27, 2021)

I'm acutally surprised anyone at Vail Resorts responded to my email about the total lack of information concerning Attitash and Wildcat. Here is the response (notice that I was sent to Twitter and Face whom I said had no information other than how many days, hours, minutes and seconds we had to buy a pass):

I hope this email finds you well. I apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry as it was only recently escalated to my attention. Also, my sincere apologies for the lack communication from Vail Resorts with regard to your inquiry.
Vail Resorts will guide the opening dates of their resorts based on the history of the resorts. Ultimately, it will be dependent on the weather conditions at the resorts that will determine the opening date of operation. 
With the breadth of information presented to our guests, Vail Resorts will always try and provide the latest updated information. With regard to the resorts themselves, Vail Resorts highly recommends deferring guests to the resort website directly for the latest updates. I also like to suggest to guests to also visit the resort social media pages such as Facebook, Instagram and especially Twitter as those platforms can be easily updated with the most current information as conditions can continually change. I have posted the Twitter accounts below directly for ease of access:

Attitash: https://twitter.com/mtnattitash or https://twitter.com/attitashresort
Wildcat: https://twitter.com/skiwildcat

Currently, the expected opening dates for the resorts you mentioned in your inquiry, Attitash and Wildcat, look to begin winter operations on Dec. 3rd as long as the weather is ideal for snow making and that they can maintain the runs for guest access. As always, this is subject to change.

With regard to your request for a season pass refund, unfortunately, weather is not a qualifying refundable event. This is documented in the Epic Coverage Policy that came with your season pass as presented during your purchase as well as being made publicly available on the website here: https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage.aspx This is cited specifically under section B.1.a.:

*"Weather and Wind*. You will not be eligible for a refund based on any inability to use your Pass due to weather-related or wind-related events, including snow levels."

It is my hope that you are able to move forward with your current plans in December and that you have a memorable experience during your visit. 
Please feel free to contact us with additional questions or concerns.
Kind regards,


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## Edd (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Every mountain wants "more" visitors. But how many can say they have an increase of 25% in one year? How about 50%? How about 100% for some days? (I don't know what the actual increase is, but it's not a small number)
> 
> "Last straw" is more like a "reinforced concrete plank"!


Point being, it’s not just Ikon, these ski areas aren’t trapped in an undesirable situation. They’re likely right where they want to be, in some ways. Perhaps, like A-Basin, some independent areas will conclude that the mega-pass isn’t for them.  But, make no mistake, tons of skier visits is the goal.


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## snoseek (Nov 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> I'm acutally surprised anyone at Vail Resorts responded to my email about the total lack of information concerning Attitash and Wildcat. Here is the response (notice that I was sent to Twitter and Face whom I said had no information other than how many days, hours, minutes and seconds we had to buy a pass):
> 
> I hope this email finds you well. I apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry as it was only recently escalated to my attention. Also, my sincere apologies for the lack communication from Vail Resorts with regard to your inquiry.
> Vail Resorts will guide the opening dates of their resorts based on the history of the resorts. Ultimately, it will be dependent on the weather conditions at the resorts that will determine the opening date of operation.
> ...


This is the typical bullshit I would expect from them. This is broomfield. Ever notice how weather dependant always falls on a weekend. Now I'm gonna swipe salt and pepper shakers and other petty shit till my pass breaks even lol


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

Edd said:


> Point being, it’s not just Ikon, these ski areas aren’t trapped in an undesirable situation. They’re likely right where they want to be, in some ways. Perhaps, like A-Basin, some independent areas will conclude that the mega-pass isn’t for them.  But, make no mistake, tons of skier visits is the goal.


They may not be "trapped". But it could very well be "undesirable". Much the same as in the case of A-basin. I'm sure AB enjoyed the increased visit initially. But in the end, they conclude there's indeed such a thing as "too much of a good thing"! Everyone who ski AB after it switched from unlimited Epic to limited IKON seem to like it a lot more than before. 

So, as much as mountains want "tons of skiers", they don't want mega tons of skiers.


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> "...Vail Resorts highly recommends deferring guests to the resort website directly for the latest updates.."





gittist said:


> "Vail Resorts will guide the opening dates of their resorts based on the history of the resorts."


Did you mention Wildcat's web site still sporting "first to open and last to close"? (which was "historically" correct)


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## gittist (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Did you mention Wildcat's web site still sporting "first to open and last to close"? (which was "historically" correct)


No I didn't. If it's still there send me an IM and I'll send you the e-mail addresses. Maybe if everyone from east of the Mississippi writes they'll pay more attention to the NE, but don't hold your breath


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> No I didn't. If it's still there send me an IM and I'll send you the e-mail addresses. Maybe if everyone from east of the Mississippi writes they'll pay more attention to the NE, but don't hold your breath


Yes, it's still there








						Mountain Info | Wildcat Mountain Resort
					






					www.skiwildcat.com
				




As I mentioned in another post, the delay open doesn't really impact me. Family obligation dictates I don't ski in November anyway. Still, it's a blatant lie to claim Wildcat "historically" have long season when the new owner made conscious decision to the contrary since taking over! 

So yes, PM me the email address. Hope others do the same.


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## machski (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> They may not be "trapped". But it could very well be "undesirable". Much the same as in the case of A-basin. I'm sure AB enjoyed the increased visit initially. But in the end, they conclude there's indeed such a thing as "too much of a good thing"! Everyone who ski AB after it switched from unlimited Epic to limited IKON seem to like it a lot more than before.
> 
> So, as much as mountains want "tons of skiers", they don't want mega tons of skiers.


Oh wait, A-Basin got better when it went to limited days on Ikon??  That is what Big Sky has too and JHMR is on the premium tier Ikon Base AND will require pre-reservations for those skier's, day tickets and MC pass skier's this year.  So how are these two all Ikon's fault?  Both have also done a ton in the past decade to increase air service (unlike CO I-70, these two are not really drive to destinations).  Bozeman now has the largest breadth of service in Montana (Billings used to have the most air service in state).  I guarantee Boyne hasn't done all they have just for 5/7 days of visits on Ikon.


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## Mainer (Nov 27, 2021)

The key to the mega passes out west is getting people to stay at the ski area lodging. Big sky doesn’t have any hotels non boyne less than 15 miles from the resort. Most of the restaurants in the upper village are boyne. It costs the same to run the resort regardless of how many visitors. Get as many people there as you can there and hope they spend a shit ton of money there. That’s why they are part of ikon.


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## crystalmountainskier (Nov 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> The key to the mega passes out west is getting people to stay at the ski area lodging. Big sky doesn’t have any hotels non boyne less than 15 miles from the resort. Most of the restaurants in the upper village are boyne. It costs the same to run the resort regardless of how many visitors. Get as many people there as you can there and hope they spend a shit ton of money there. That’s why they are part of ikon.


The Lodge at Big Sky and Bucks T-4 are not owned by Boyne. There's a new Marriott Residence Inn in the Big Sky Town Center. A Montage is about to open in Spanish Peaks. Moonlight is getting the first One & Only resort in the United States. I would not be surprised to see a Four Seasons too.


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Big sky doesn’t have any hotels non boyne less than 15 miles from the resort. Most of the restaurants in the upper village are boyne. It costs the same to run the resort regardless of how many visitors. Get as many people there as you can there and hope they spend a shit ton of money there. That’s why they are part of ikon.


Jackson miscalculated terribly on that count. The herd of skiers came from Salt Lake. They drove in on their SUV and spend the night sleeping in their SUV! Some of them even brought their own food so they don't spend a dime!


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## crystalmountainskier (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Jackson miscalculated terribly on that count. The herd of skiers came from Salt Lake. They drove in on their SUV and spend the night sleeping in their SUV! Some of them even brought their own food so they don't spend a dime!


Huh?

(https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/the_...cle_d0030d62-1256-5356-8933-c8a9fe7c734c.html)


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## machski (Nov 27, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Huh?
> 
> (https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/the_...cle_d0030d62-1256-5356-8933-c8a9fe7c734c.html)


Yup.  Hate to say this, but Jackson is the modern day's Aspen.  Everyone wants to live there and be seen there now, whether they ski or not.


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## abc (Nov 27, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Huh?
> 
> (https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/the_...cle_d0030d62-1256-5356-8933-c8a9fe7c734c.html)


Huh? What does summer sales record has anything to do with Alterra?


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## jaytrem (Nov 27, 2021)

urungus said:


> If they were “spending like mad *long before* Ikon”, but the excessive crowds didn’t arrive until after Ikon, it seems pretty obvious what the main problem is.


My mother heard of both JH and BS before ikon, so they were too crowded then.  I've been to JH on a weekend before Ikon.  High speed chairs had very long waits, and forget about the tram.  Airport was also the biggest shit show I've ever seen, that's saying something since typically fly out of Newark.  Yellowstone NP has also been excessively crowded in recent years, can't blame Ikon for that.  I'm sure Ikon didn't help, but Yellowstone and surrounding area is just too well known.





__





						Yellowstone National Park Visitor Statistics ~ Yellowstone Up Close and Personal
					

Yellowstone National Park Visitor Statistics ~ Yellowstone Up Close and Personal




					www.yellowstone.co


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## jaytrem (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Huh? What does summer sales record has anything to do with Alterra?


Because Ikon or no Ikon, people are flocking to the area.  Duh!


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Every mountain wants "more" visitors. But how many can say they have an increase of 25% in one year? How about 50%? How about 100% for some days? (I don't know what the actual increase is, but it's not a small number)
> 
> "Last straw" is more like a "reinforced concrete beam"!











						Jackson Hole Just Had Its Busiest Ski Season On Record
					

Not only did Jackson Hole Mountain Resort have a stellar ski season in terms of snow (504″) but the premiere Wyoming mountain also hosted the most skiers it’s seen in its entire history…




					unofficialnetworks.com
				




This was the season before Ikon became available...but it sure is convenient for everyone to blame Ikon even though they were already on an upwards trajectory in terms of skier visits and had already been setting new records a couple other times recently before Ikon came along.

Skier visits also set a record at JH the following year (when Ikon was available). They increased about 12% from the 2017/2018 season to the 2018/2019 season (for comparison, the 2017/2018 record was also about a 12% increase over the previous record at JH...and that one was also about a 12% increase over their previous record). So you said you didn't know the actual numbers...well there they are. So the reality is that they were about half of the lowest number you mentioned. And again, they were already on an upward trend in terms of skier visits, so you don't know how much of that 12% is due to Ikon vs other factors. Maybe Ikon was directly responsible for that entire 12%. Or maybe it was only 5%...or 2%. Twice in the past several years before Ikon even existed they set records of 12% increases without Ikon, but when Ikon is released and they again have a 12% increase, suddenly it is Ikon's fault.

I wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers/stories at other resorts where people frequently blame Ikon as the sole contributor to crowding as well. I'm not saying Ikon isn't a factor, but people that want to purely blame Ikon are just looking for a scapegoat when the reality is there are numerous factors contributing to it.


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## Mainer (Nov 27, 2021)

Bucks t-4 is in the canyon, doesn’t count. Had a few great meals there. Dirtbag ball was fun there too. Big sky has been on the rise for years, when I moved there my mom hadn’t heard of it. The majority of the upper mtn lodging is owned by boyne. The whole of big sky benefits by more people coming.
   Jackson Hole has been crowded the last 3 decades. I watched New tgr and warren miller movieS this week. Both had a big Jackson hole segments. That mountain doesn’t need ikon. But it doesn’t cost more to have ikon pass holders, the lifts are already running. Ikon just adds to an already crowded area just like SLC. The whole of Jackson benefits by more people coming. Ikon just makes the crowding worse and pisses off the dirtbags.   
   But a ski area is a business to make money. Finding that happy medium between happy skiers that come back every year to skiers that say fuck this place it’s way too crowded. That is the mega pass conundrum.


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## abc (Nov 28, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Finding that happy medium between happy skiers that come back every year to skiers that say fuck this place it’s way too crowded. That is the mega pass conundrum.


Depending on where the skiers are coming from, what's "crowded" for one maybe "quiet" by another. 

Megapass allows people to "sample" their mountain "for free". Whether they come back depends on all sort of factors. 

I've been going to Jackson for years. I'm familiar with the crowds in Jackson. I'm willing to put up with it. But I invited a friend from Colorado to join me one year on her IKON pass "for free". She didn't care for the crowd and never went back even though it's only one day drive for her. But she's been back to Big Sky since, even though it's a 2 day drive for her. 

The "happy medium" determines the type of visitors the mountain draws. Most of Vail's mountains are "too crowded" for my taste. 

I'm also more willing to brave the crowds in Alterra mountains because I like the terrain better in general. (I get an Epic pass once every few years because I have friends who are year-after-year Epic pass holders) But in any case I'm not the kind of skier most big resorts value as I'm not bringing a whole family!


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## abc (Nov 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Skier visits also set a record at JH the following year (when Ikon was available). They increased about 12% from the 2017/2018 season to the 2018/2019 season (for comparison, the 2017/2018 record was also about a 12% increase over the previous record at JH...and that one was also about a 12% increase over their previous record). So you said you didn't know the actual numbers...well there they are. So the reality is that they were about half of the lowest number you mentioned. And again, they were already on an upward trend in terms of skier visits, so you don't know how much of that 12% is due to Ikon vs other factors. Maybe Ikon was directly responsible for that entire 12%. Or maybe it was only 5%...or 2%. Twice in the past several years before Ikon even existed they set records of 12% increases without Ikon, but when Ikon is released and they again have a 12% increase, suddenly it is Ikon's fault.


Thanks for the data. It clear up a lot of things. 

I ski Jackson almost every year. I personally don't noticed substantial change in overall crowding level. But the pattern of crowding I can't help but to notice. I've been warned weekends are often crowded so I typically try to time it to be there during the week, though I don't always succeed mostly due to work schedule of my friends in the region. 

It's the weekend crowd that exploded on the first year of IKON that got the Jackson locals all up in arms. The bitching I heard from locals on that 1st year of IKON colored my impression. If even half of that 12% increase came all during the weekends, it would be felt very negatively. 

A buddy who went along with me got snared in a crazy busy weekend (crowd level resembling northeast weekend!). She never went back. For anyone normally ski in the west, that level of crowd is pure madness. I can understand how the Jackson locals felt (even though they should be familiar with maddening crowds in the summer)


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## machski (Nov 28, 2021)

abc said:


> Thanks for the data. It clear up a lot of things.
> 
> I ski Jackson almost every year. I personally don't noticed substantial change in overall crowding level. But the pattern of crowding I can't help but to notice. I've been warned weekends are often crowded so I typically try to time it to be there during the week, though I don't always succeed mostly due to work schedule of my friends in the region.
> 
> ...


Since we seem to be on a Jackson discussion, you also cannot discount the non Ikon areas out there are both investing heavily on hill.  Grand Targhee had to pull back a bit from their planned breadth of expansion due to pushback but are still looking to make major upgrades and expand terrain.   Snow King is completely transforming itself this season with the new Gondola, moving it's learn to ski/ride to the summit with the Gondola providing the link and opening the backside bowls officially with the new chair back there.

Obviously the region is a huge draw.  Sure some can drive to Jackson relatively easy (SLC) but why would you drive hours when you can drive 30-45 minutes (okay, could be hours up the canyons depending).  Ikon may have made it an easy incentive for SLC to chase snow if Utah is dry.  Otherwise.....


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2021)

Any plans for Jackson to add more lift capacity?  700k+ visits seems like quite a bit for the number of lifts they have, especially coming out of the base.  I count 13 with a couple just seemingly just transfer lifts near the Hobacks. 

Contrast that to Killington with a similar amount of skier visits and 17 chairs with multiple base areas.


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## crystalmountainskier (Nov 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Any plans for Jackson to add more lift capacity?  700k+ visits seems like quite a bit for the number of lifts they have, especially coming out of the base.  I count 13 with a couple just seemingly just transfer lifts near the Hobacks.
> 
> Contrast that to Killington with a similar amount of skier visits and 17 chairs with multiple base areas.



The head of JH said on the Storm Skiing Podcast Sublette and Thunder are slated to be replaced in the next 5 years with high speed quads. She also mentioned planning for a Lower Faces lift starting in the Moose Creek area and ending near the bottom of Sublette.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2021)

Kinda interesting that they don't label on the map which lifts are high speed vs fixed grip


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## machski (Nov 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Any plans for Jackson to add more lift capacity?  700k+ visits seems like quite a bit for the number of lifts they have, especially coming out of the base.  I count 13 with a couple just seemingly just transfer lifts near the Hobacks.
> 
> Contrast that to Killington with a similar amount of skier visits and 17 chairs with multiple base areas.


Its kind of amazing how some of these large areas out west have but a single base portal onto the mountain.  The worst is probably Steamboat for that in my mind.  Big Blue will help, but it will still be all accessed from a single base portal.


----------



## abc (Nov 28, 2021)

machski said:


> Sure some can drive to Jackson relatively easy (SLC) but why would you drive hours when you can drive 30-45 minutes (okay, could be hours up the canyons depending). Ikon may have made it an easy incentive for SLC to chase snow if Utah is dry. Otherwise.....


"Otherwise...". Come to think of it, the mad crowd of that 1st year of IKON was also a year when Jackson got multiple mega dumps!

Still, for people in Salt Lake, a weekend to Jackson is much the same as people going to Killington, Stowe, or going to Sugarloaf. Different mountain, different terrain, different snow pattern... a vacation! To ski something significantly different than the home mountain, "for free"!

Every way you look at it, Jackson is not the same as Snowbird.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 28, 2021)

machski said:


> Its kind of amazing how some of these large areas out west have but a single base portal onto the mountain.  The worst is probably Steamboat for that in my mind.  Big Blue will help, but it will still be all accessed from a single base portal.



Yeah I brought that up in a post sometime in the past year.  Tons of resorts in the West with just one or two base areas....compared to the big Eastern resorts, all of which have at least 3 many with 4 or 5+.  

When I went to Crystal in mid-December last year on crappy snow there were 10-15 minute lift lines at peak times to get out of the base with the parking lots 1/3-1/2 full.  That must be awful during peak season.  They put in a low capacity gondola to help get people out of the base maybe 10 years ago that they want to upgrade already with more cabins.  I couldn't imagine what it was like before that was installed.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 29, 2021)

Still no announcement on when nh opens. Weather is a lame excuse at this point as is lack of snow.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 29, 2021)

2 more "New" snomakers just bailed on Att/WC...   
And these guys both had 5+ years previous snomaking experience at other places.
Definitely, not good.....


----------



## snoseek (Nov 29, 2021)

Hope the new mgmt is ready to put in some sweat


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Hope the new mgmt is ready to put in some sweat


Ha Ha Ha
        I'm sure the New GM (former Food & Bev. Manager) will be hauling hoses, and walking down the trails all night long making snow....
        At least he's qualified to flip burgers and make pizza.

What a Shit Show.  Most of the WC veteran seasonal "on snow" employees have moved on to greener pastures. 
         Lift Ops, Lift Maintenance, Patrol, Snomaking, Grooming are all in need of more than a few good people.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 29, 2021)

Man all the local businesses must be freaking thenpast couple years.

I do hope they pull it together as unlikely as it seems. They do a decent job in vt. Crotched and sunapee as well. All of the resorts are terrible about communication and that's probably by design although it makes zero sense to me.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 29, 2021)

It makes me a bit sad that any ski resort on a megapass is a place I will no longer ski at.
But very happy that many of my go to places will not ever be on a megapass. Those would be Plattekill and the ORDA areas. I give K a pass because it is not a full-blown IKON area, just an affiliate.


----------



## gittist (Nov 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Still no announcement on when nh opens. Weather is a lame excuse at this point as is lack of snow.





2Planker said:


> 2 more "New" snomakers just bailed on Att/WC...
> And these guys both had 5+ years previous snomaking experience at other places.
> Definitely, not good.....



Hunter (Vail-NY) is open.
Mt Snow, Okemo, and Stowe (Vail-VT) are open.
Gore (NY) is open,
Killington is open, no surprise there.

I don't know about others except no place in PA is open.

I already complained about the lack of any meaningful communication.  The last Wildcat post on social media was Nov 21 talking about buying your EPIC pass, and Attitash was Nov 23. If posting on social media is so easy as I was informed by someone at Vail, why don't they do it?


----------



## mbedle (Nov 29, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yeah I brought that up in a post sometime in the past year.  Tons of resorts in the West with just one or two base areas....compared to the big Eastern resorts, all of which have at least 3 many with 4 or 5+.
> 
> When I went to Crystal in mid-December last year on crappy snow there were 10-15 minute lift lines at peak times to get out of the base with the parking lots 1/3-1/2 full.  That must be awful during peak season.  They put in a low capacity gondola to help get people out of the base maybe 10 years ago that they want to upgrade already with more cabins.  I couldn't imagine what it was like before that was installed.


Which eastern ski resorts have 3+ base areas?


----------



## JimG. (Nov 29, 2021)

gittist said:


> Hunter (Vail-NY) is open.
> Mt Snow, Okemo, and Stowe (Vail-VT) are open.
> Gore (NY) is open,
> Killington is open, no surprise there.
> ...


All 3 ORDA areas open.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 29, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Which eastern ski resorts have 3+ base areas?



killington. stowe. sugarbush (i think gate house vs super bravo/valley house vs mt ellen counts here). sunday river. cannon has 3 distinct parking areas by different lifts. etc.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killington. stowe. sugarbush (i think gate house vs super bravo/valley house vs mt ellen counts here). sunday river.


Super bravo is what 150 yards from gate house at most???


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Super bravo is what 150 yards from gate house at most???



they serve completely seperate pods of terrain and have their own buildings. each main lift at the lincoln peak base has its own building. if the point of the question is spreading out crowds in separate facilities and on separate terrain pods, it qualifies imo


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 29, 2021)

If you count Sundance, Mount Snow technically has 3 base areas


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 29, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> If you count Sundance, Mount Snow technically has 3 base areas



i havent been to mount snow in ages and don't remember, but if it has its own parking and lift and building, it should count.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i havent been to mount snow in ages and don't remember, but if it has its own parking and lift and building, it should count.


Its got the lodge as well as lifts.  It was actually a nice place to park before it became part of the paid parking this year


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 29, 2021)

Pretty sure Holiday Valley has at least 3.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2021)

Loon not mentioned. It has 3.


----------



## Not Sure (Nov 29, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> By far the worst drivers in the nation.  We have a thing here whereby if we see a MA plate we give a WIDE birth.
> 
> They aint called Massholes for nothing.


That chart must be upside down!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> they serve completely seperate pods of terrain and have their own buildings. each main lift at the lincoln peak base has its own building. if the point of the question is spreading out crowds in separate facilities and on separate terrain pods, it qualifies imo


Still wouldn't call it a separate base area


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 29, 2021)

Hunter just needs a lodge for 3.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killington. stowe. sugarbush (i think gate house vs super bravo/valley house vs mt ellen counts here). sunday river. cannon has 3 distinct parking areas by different lifts. etc.


Sunday River does.
Other big ones that don't Jay and Sugarloaf


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 29, 2021)

2Planker said:


> 2 more "New" snomakers just bailed on Att/WC...
> And these guys both had 5+ years previous snomaking experience at other places.
> Definitely, not good.....


Yikes! Vail treating them that poorly??


----------



## Mainer (Nov 29, 2021)

Cranmore is opening Friday. Looks like it might be 2 years in a row they beat wildcat. Sad days for skiing in the mount Washington valley.


----------



## abc (Nov 29, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yikes! Vail treating them that poorly??


Or other mountains pay them more?


----------



## Dickc (Nov 29, 2021)

Sunapee announced on Facebook that they will open on Friday December 3  from 9AM to 4PM.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 29, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yikes! Vail treating them that poorly??


Magic apparently last week lost a couple of their snowmakers per a post on a FB snowmakers group. With the context of the couple who left taking bigger offers that they (Magic) couldn't match.

Snowmakers are in high demand, and it's a job that so many people wouldn't want to do for a season if they had the opportunity I suspect


----------



## thebigo (Nov 29, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Cranmore is opening Friday. Looks like it might be 2 years in a row they beat wildcat. Sad days for skiing in the mount Washington valley.


Same story at ragged: Opening Friday and looking to beat wildcat two years in a row.

Even pats is hinting at an imminent opening.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 29, 2021)

Vail's management should be lined up and shot for what they've done to Wildcat.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 29, 2021)

There's been a good amount of snow laid down. If wildcat doesn't open by the weekend I suspect there's some really big problems going on.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 29, 2021)

Heard Stowe lost a lot of them as well. They did not have a lot of guns on this weekend.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Vail's management should be lined up and shot for what they've done to Wildcat.



They just need to put the place on the market and take the first reasonable offer.  It's obvious it is not making them much money nor do the care to try.  

Someone should petition the USFS to annul their lease on the grounds of gross negligence and poor stewardship.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> They just need to put the place on the market and take the first reasonable offer.  It's obvious it is not making them much money nor do the care to try.
> 
> Someone should petition the USFS to annul their lease on the grounds of gross negligence and poor stewardship.


Let it be run by the state perhaps? I’m usually against anything government run but Cannon seems to do well enough.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Let it be run by the state perhaps? I’m usually against anything government run but Cannon seems to do well enough.



Your lips to the ears of every god ever dreamt of


----------



## gittist (Nov 30, 2021)

New marketing slogans for Vail Resorts:

Wildcat: 

Last to open and first to close. 

Ski on natural ungroomed snow as nature intended. 

Only at Wildcat!

EPIC Pass:  We reduced the price by 20% because we realize that you'll have at least 20% less opportunity for a great skiing experience!


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 30, 2021)

The northeast value pass is blacked out Dec 26-31, Jan 15-16 and Feb 19-20 at Stowe/Okemo/MtSnow. Wildcat and Attitash will be beyond shitshows during those periods. Especially Xmas given how little terrain will likely be open. 

I'm also wondering if they intend to open off the Tomcat? I assumed they were blowing upper lynx-> middle wildcat-> bobcat, but maybe it's just middle wildcat-> bobcat?


----------



## skiur (Nov 30, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> The northeast value pass is blacked out Dec 26-31, Jan 15-16 and Feb 19-20 at Stowe/Okemo/MtSnow. Wildcat and Attitash will be beyond shitshows during those periods. Especially Xmas given how little terrain will likely be open.
> 
> I'm also wondering if they intend to open off the Tomcat? I assumed they were blowing upper lynx-> middle wildcat-> bobcat, but maybe it's just middle wildcat-> bobcat?


I disagree, those places will probably be relatively empty with many people blacked out compared to previous years.


----------



## MadKitty (Nov 30, 2021)

There are no blackouts at wildcat or attitash. NH is being relegated to overflow capacity under vail.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Nov 30, 2021)

epicpass.com chat says Attitash and Wildcat are both opening Friday.  But they have no details.

Vail is in lala land.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 30, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> That chart must be upside down!





deadheadskier said:


> They just need to put the place on the market and take the first reasonable offer.  It's obvious it is not making them much money nor do the care to try.
> 
> Someone should petition the USFS to annul their lease on the grounds of gross negligence and poor stewardship.





MogulMonsters said:


> epicpass.com chat says Attitash and Wildcat are both opening Friday.  But they have no details.
> 
> Vail is in lala land.


This Fri 12/3 was Attitash's orig scheduled opening day
WC was orig sch to open 11/19.

 Drove past Att at 1:30pm.  
Dead as a doornail,  only4-5 cars in the VIP lot.
Season pass office is still closed. 
No one answers any of the phone lines.
 Gonna be another *Vail Fail* season


----------



## gittist (Nov 30, 2021)

2Planker said:


> This Fri 12/3 was Attitash's orig scheduled opening day
> WC was orig sch to open 11/19.
> 
> Drove past Att an hour ago.  Dead as a doornail, 4-5 cars in the VIP lot.
> Season pass office is still closed


Maybe Vail Resorts should just contract out all of the NH areas but still honor Epic passes. Instead of a GOCO (Government Owned Contractor Operated) it would be  a VOCO.


----------



## Mainer (Nov 30, 2021)

Wildcat is opening friday. Looks like one run off the tomcat triple. Hopefully they have replacements for all the quad chairs they sold for charity.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 30, 2021)

I'll be there


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 30, 2021)

1 trail pretty sad.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 30, 2021)

Good point about the quad chairs! I saw that they sold 50 of them, never saw anything about them getting new chairs!


----------



## chuckstah (Nov 30, 2021)

I skied the afternoon at Mt Snow today. The Bluebird was closed due to "weather". The weather was near perfect, calm, couple flurries. They ran Grand Summit in it's place. Start, stop, start, stop. All afternoon. Annoying. 
The skiing itself was pretty unspectacular. Same old 3 runs of dust on crust. There was one section of Choke open with some bumps, that was fun, and the edges of Canyon has some playful snow. Hopefully won't be going back anytime soon.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 30, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> I skied the afternoon at Mt Snow today. The Bluebird was closed due to "weather". The weather was near perfect, calm, couple flurries. They ran Grand Summit in it's place. Start, stop, start, stop. All afternoon. Annoying.
> The skiing itself was pretty unspectacular. Same old 3 runs of dust on crust. There was one section of Choke open with some bumps, that was fun, and the edges of Canyon has some playful snow. Hopefully won't be going back anytime soon.



Were they making snow on Lodge up near the Summit by chance today? 

If so, that will very often have them not running the Bluebird, especially if it's not a busy day, so as not to get the bubbles, and the folks potentially on them, from getting plastered by the guns, which at times as caused some issues with safe operation of the bubbles? I can personally attest to that in the past!


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Were they making snow on Lodge up near the Summit by chance today?
> 
> If so, that will very often have them not running the Bluebird, especially if it's not a busy day, so as not to get the bubbles, and the folks potentially on them, from getting plastered by the guns, which at times as caused some issues with safe operation of the bubbles? I can personally attest to that in the past!



Then be honest about it.  Not hard to say, hey we are running the GS due to snowmaking that would make the BB ride uncomfortable.   

Then again, the simplest forms of communication and customer service are totally lost on Vail.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 30, 2021)

Jack Frost opens Friday.


----------



## chuckstah (Nov 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Were they making snow on Lodge up near the Summit by chance today?
> 
> If so, that will very often have them not running the Bluebird, especially if it's not a busy day, so as not to get the bubbles, and the folks potentially on them, from getting plastered by the guns, which at times as caused some issues with safe operation of the bubbles? I can personally attest to that in the past!


They were making snow, or trying anyway as I didn't see any production, under both lifts. It certainly would have  have been much more comfortable under a bubble rather than getting plastered in the face on the Grand summit. And as DHS said, why not speak the truth!


----------



## meff (Nov 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Then be honest about it.  Not hard to say, hey we are running the GS due to snowmaking that would make the BB ride uncomfortable.
> 
> Then again, the simplest forms of communication and customer service are totally lost on Vail.



The snow and weather report actually said they weren't running Bluebird today in order to maximize snow making on Lodge.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 1, 2021)

meff said:


> The snow and weather report actually said they weren't running Bluebird today in order to maximize snow making on Lodge.


Probably shouldn't have had a giant sign at the Bluebird saying closed due to weather one would think. Personally, I gave up going to any Vail owned websites, because, well, almost useless.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 1, 2021)

How many people do you think will be checking for VAX cards at Attitash or wildcat? I’m just curious because I know they’re not gonna run All the lifts because they Are going to say they’re short staffed. I don’t care about the vaccine requirement unless it takes away from running a Lift. Very few businesses in New Hampshire require this if any. It is just virtue signaling, I had the vaccine and I just got Covid.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 1, 2021)

Mainer said:


> How many people do you think will be checking for VAX cards at Attitash or wildcat? I’m just curious because I know they’re not gonna run All the lifts because they Are going to say they’re short staffed. I don’t care about the vaccine requirement unless it takes away from running a Lift. Very few businesses in New Hampshire require this if any. It is just virtue signaling, I had the vaccine and I just got Covid.



Vail wide, the only time, as of now, unless there are specific local requirements, that they're checking one's vaccination status is of you're going inside a lodge to eat at a Cafeteria style restaurant and a few select table service restaurants. 

At Mount Snow last weekend, they had a tent set up outside of the base lodge entrance where they had an employee checking to see if you had either your actual vaccination card, or a photo of it on your phone or if applicable a vaccination status app.

How that will be at other resorts? I guess that remains to be seen as they open up for the season


----------



## Edd (Dec 1, 2021)

Mainer said:


> How many people do you think will be checking for VAX cards at Attitash or wildcat? I’m just curious because I know they’re not gonna run All the lifts because they Are going to say they’re short staffed. I don’t care about the vaccine requirement unless it takes away from running a Lift. Very few businesses in New Hampshire require this if any. It is just virtue signaling, I had the vaccine and I just got Covid.


They seem consistent with policies between mountains. Indoor dining appears to require proof of vaccination. Otherwise not required.


----------



## slatham (Dec 1, 2021)

drjeff said:


> How that will be at other resorts? I guess that remains to be seen as they open up for the season


I was at Stratton Monday. Requiring masks inside, full stop. No vaccination or testing requirement that I saw. Reservations needed to sit inside. I do not know what, if anything, they require on the Gondola, I did not ride it.


----------



## molecan (Dec 1, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Cranmore is opening Friday. Looks like it might be 2 years in a row they beat wildcat. Sad days for skiing in the mount Washington valley.


This is indeed absurd.  No word still on opening dates for Attitash and Wildcat.


----------



## Edd (Dec 1, 2021)

molecan said:


> This is indeed absurd.  No word still on opening dates for Attitash and Wildcat.


You missed a post earlier. Wildcat opening Friday using the Tomcat lift.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2021)

Attitash pushed back opening date with nothing scheduled yet.   So, Vail will have a total of 2/3rds of a trail open in the MWV for this weekend.

Fun!

Maybe they'll drop the pass price another 20% next year


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2021)

molecan said:


> This is indeed absurd.  No word still on opening dates for Attitash and Wildcat.


Heard attitrash opening 12/11…


----------



## gittist (Dec 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Attitash pushed back opening date with nothing scheduled yet.   So, Vail will have a total of 2/3rds of a trail open in the MWV for this weekend.
> 
> Fun!
> 
> Maybe they'll drop the pass price another 20% next year


It's pretty bad when Jack Frost in Pennsylvania stands a chance of opening before Attitash.  We need a "Let's go Brandon" slogan for Vail.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 1, 2021)

gittist said:


> It's pretty bad when Jack Frost in Pennsylvania stands a chance of opening before Attitash.  We need a "Let's go Brandon" slogan for Vail.


Not even a Biden supporter but “Let’s Go Brandon” is cringeworthy. The name of this thread is an apt slogan.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 1, 2021)

its really the dumbest shit and the people who use the phrase think they are being so fucking clever and cheeky. they arent.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 1, 2021)

gittist said:


> It's pretty bad when Jack Frost in Pennsylvania stands a chance of opening before Attitash.  We need a "Let's go Brandon" slogan for Vail.


Jack Frost is opening Friday they are opening before Attitash.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 1, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Not even a Biden supporter but “Let’s Go Brandon” is cringeworthy. The name of this thread is an apt slogan.


What was cringeworthy was watching the reporter try and cover up the what the crowd at the nascar event where it originated was really saying, had she just chosen to ignore it, Lets go Brandon never would have been a thing


----------



## NYDB (Dec 1, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> What was cringeworthy was watching the reporter try and cover up the what the crowd at the nascar event where it originated was really saying, had she just chosen to ignore it, Lets go Brandon never would have been a thing


it sure is a great way to identify assholes.


----------



## abc (Dec 1, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Not even a Biden supporter but “Let’s Go Brandon” is cringeworthy. The name of this thread is an apt slogan.


I AM a Biden supporter. 

But somehow I'm not disturbed by it. Politicians had always been the target of jokes, bad taste or good. It comes with the territory. Sure, what's behind it is quite stupid. But we know that long ago.


----------



## machski (Dec 1, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Not even a Biden supporter but “Let’s Go Brandon” is cringeworthy. The name of this thread is an apt slogan.


Even worse, we are hearing that on the air guard (121.5) frequency in flight.  That is pathetic.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 1, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> it sure is a great way to identify assholes.





> What was cringeworthy was watching the reporter try and cover up the what the crowd at the nascar event where it originated was really saying, had she just chosen to ignore it, Lets go Brandon never would have been a thing



Maybe radically polarized people on both sides should try to figure out how we got here? Maybe we should all try to understand people who hold different viewpoints rather than just assume they are defective?


----------



## abc (Dec 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Maybe radically polarized people on both sides should try to figure out how we got here? Maybe we should all try to understand people who hold different viewpoints rather than just assume they are defective?


You're saying "stolen election" is just a matter of viewpoints that needs "figure out"? 

Sorry dude, we're way past that (view?)point.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 1, 2021)

yup, there is no 'both sides' equivalence when one side is storming the center of govt and capitulating to absurd lies about stolen elections, while actively trying to disenfranchise the other side's voters.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 1, 2021)

abc said:


> You're saying "stolen election" is just a matter of viewpoints that needs "figure out"?
> 
> Sorry dude, we're way past that (view?)point.


Probably more along the lines of the notion that many on the far left and in some parts of the media have that anyone who identifies as a Conservative must be a white supremicist racist. Just like the false notion that many on the far right have that anyone who identifies as Progressive must be for wide open boarders and abortions on demand.  

Unfortunately while the minority in terms of actual numbers of people, the extremes of BOTH parties make way more noise than their numbers represent


----------



## snoseek (Dec 1, 2021)

I'm looking for an election cycle where both parties actually put their best candidate forward. It's been a minute.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 1, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm looking for an election cycle where both parties actually put their best candidate forward. It's been a minute.


If by "best" you mean someone who can appeal to the moderate middle and independents verses just generate the interest of the hardcore more fringe like bases that often drive early campaign support dollars, then I wouldn't hold my breathe.

The polictal system in conjuncton with much of the media in this country is so screwed up right now


----------



## MogulMonsters (Dec 1, 2021)

So back to Vail sucks. What’s the over or under of At being open before 1/1/22?


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 1, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> So back to Vail sucks. What’s the over or under of At being open before 1/1/22?


50/50 Open but its natural snow only, no lifts and you have to skin or pay $100 for a snowmobile ride up


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 1, 2021)

Some maintenance guys were in Bea's today, sayin' Sat 12/11 is now the plan for Attitash


----------



## abc (Dec 1, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Unfortunately while the minority in terms of actual numbers of people, the extremes of BOTH parties make way more noise than their numbers represent


Actually, I think it's normal that the extreme fringes makes the most noise, whilst the moderate middle stay mostly quiet, aka "silent majority". 

What's dysfunctional is those fringe noise makers had become the ONLY VOICES!


----------



## Edd (Dec 1, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Some maintenance guys were in Bea's today, sayin' Sat 12/11 is now the plan for Attitash


I’m blanking. What’s Bea’s?


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 1, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’m blanking. What’s Bea’s?


Bea's Cafe in  Conway...  
Terrible diner, food sucks, no one goes there.  You'd hate it


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’m blanking. What’s Bea’s?



Cafe in Conway


----------



## Edd (Dec 1, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Bea's Cafe in  Conway...
> Terrible diner, food sucks, no one goes there.  You'd hate it


Looked it up. Never been. Sunshine Cafe has a grip on me.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 1, 2021)

Edd said:


> Looked it up. Never been. Sunshine Cafe has a grip on me.


You mean the sunrise shack on 16? Try out yesterdays in downtown Jackson. Food is better and there is never a line, even on weekends.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 1, 2021)

Edd said:


> Looked it up. Never been. Sunshine Cafe has a grip on me.


Do you mean  The Sunrise Shack ??
Agreed, but can be a lil crowded at times.

 and a definite Thumbs UP for Yesterday's


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 1, 2021)

What is the over/under on the wildcat quad opening? My guess is Saturday the 18th. Bet they send their 3 EPIC snowmakers to Attitash for the next week


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 1, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> You mean the sunrise shack on 16? Try out yesterdays in downtown Jackson. Food is better and there is never a line, even on weekends.


Love Yesterday’s. Glad Sarah reopened.


----------



## Edd (Dec 2, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> You mean the sunrise shack on 16? Try out yesterdays in downtown Jackson. Food is better and there is never a line, even on weekends.


I do . I didn’t go last season due to COVID so apparently forgetting the name. I have never been to Yesterdays somehow. If they serve morning cocktails I’ll give it a whirl.


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## slatham (Dec 2, 2021)

Its the little things....

Mt Snow snow stake not cleared. They reported 4" but stake shows more like 7".

Okemo snow report, the "box" that shows new snow, 24 hour, 48 hour etc? It hasn't been updated since November 27th. Snow report also makes no mention of new snow. Given Mt Snow 4", Stratton 3" and Killington 1", I think it snowed at Okemo.


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> Its the little things....
> 
> Mt Snow snow stake not cleared. They reported 4" but stake shows more like 7".
> 
> Okemo snow report, the "box" that shows new snow, 24 hour, 48 hour etc? It hasn't been updated since November 27th. Snow report also makes no mention of new snow. Given Mt Snow 4", Stratton 3" and Killington 1", I think it snowed at Okemo.


These people of the Walmart of ski resorts. The just updated the website and the written forecast says "Chance of mixed precipitation" and the forecast below that says "heavy snow (2-5 in.) until evening". Plus, the stupid twitter account posted at the exact time they updated the webpage that only the discovery shuttle will be running at 9AM and the rest of the lifts open at 10AM, with a link back to the website that says 5 lifts are with only 3 marked green. Its inconceivable that a company can call themselves one of the best resort operators, yet employe a bunch of monkeys to run their IT department... lol


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

their social media and website presence is embarrassing.


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## RichT (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> their social media and website presence is embarrassing.


Everything is now 20% less accurate then it was before!


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## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2021)

RichT said:


> Everything is now 20% less accurate then it was before!


Even more than that in some cases.   Mt Snow used to be pretty good about communication pre-vail.  It was pretty easy to go on their website and have an exact idea of what was running and open as well as where snowmaking was going on


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## Newpylong (Dec 2, 2021)

That's what happens when you consolidate and try to run everything from Broomfield.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Even more than that in some cases.


Are you suggesting Vail should discount the pass price more than 20%?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2021)

I think the lack of social media communication is by design.   They don't want to get in online arguments with customers that are visible to others.  

I think the shit weather reports are just ignorance of how important they are to east coast skiers.  

Generally speaking they need more local marketing control


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## slatham (Dec 2, 2021)

I listened to Storm King pod cast with Vail VP of Eastern ops. He's new to the east coast, and had lots of corporate-speak answers (yes public company so some he can't answer, like "are you looking at Jay?" But I mean beyond that). It was the least impressive of all the pod casts of owner/operators I've listened to. Nice guy, obviously capable, just in a tough spot with no eastern experience and governed by corporate PR shackles.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2021)

My understanding is that dude is managing the east from Bromfield.   Did the podcast say so?


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> I listened to Storm King pod cast with Vail VP of Eastern ops. He's new to the east coast, and had lots of corporate-speak answers (yes public company so some he can't answer, like "are you looking at Jay?" But I mean beyond that). It was the least impressive of all the pod casts of owner/operators I've listened to. Nice guy, obviously capable, just in a tough spot with no eastern experience and governed by corporate PR shackles.


I don't have the patience for podcasts. Just did a quick search on Tim and he definitely seems to have no real experience in the east even in terms of having lived here much at any point (unless you count the time he played for the Pittsburgh Steelers). Is he based here in the east? Or based out in Vail corporate HQ? The east is just so different from the west and if he's managing from Vail HQ...then that just further shows how Vail has absolutely no understanding of the eastern market (and has no desire to actually try to understand it).


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## ThatGuy (Dec 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The east is just so different from the west and if he's managing from Vail HQ...then that just further shows how Vail has absolutely no understanding of the eastern market (and has no desire to actually try to understand it).


I think Vails understanding of the eastern market is as a place people will fly out west to their other resorts from.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> I think Vails understanding of the eastern market is as a place people will fly out west to their other resorts from.


Feeder hills


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## 2Planker (Dec 2, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I don't have the patience for podcasts. Just did a quick search on Tim and he definitely seems to have no real experience in the east even in terms of having lived here much at any point (unless you count the time he played for the Pittsburgh Steelers). Is he based here in the east? Or based out in Vail corporate HQ? The east is just so different from the west and if he's managing from Vail HQ...then that just further shows how Vail has absolutely no understanding of the eastern market (and has no desire to actually try to understand it).


I heard that Podcast.  He was full of Corporate BS. Does not know his ass from his elbow.  Prob never skied a day in his life....


 Another totally UNqualified Management Level person.....

YES,  WC can't even fix a dead groomer w/out getting it approved by Bromfield


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

the thing that makes me so pissed is that it wouldn't really take that much effort or even affect the bottom line so much if they just took a breath and realized that they acquired a completely different market.  Sure there are things that you'll want to do corporate wide, but there are also things at the individual mountain level, especially at the non-destination places that can be done differently.   

Just goes to show you how little these people not only understand about the east or just running a business in general.   I don't think any of this is calculated.  Its incompetence!


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> the thing that makes me so pissed is that it wouldn't really take that much effort or even affect the bottom line so much if they just took a breath and realized that they acquired a completely different market.  Sure there are things that you'll want to do corporate wide, but there are also things at the individual mountain level, especially at the non-destination places that can be done differently.
> 
> Just goes to show you how little these people not only understand about the east or just running a business in general.   I don't think any of this is calculated.  Its incompetence!


I’m unfamiliar with where you usually ski?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

Ski Roundtop in southcentral PA, 4 miles from home.   I mean its great I have a pass I can use up north and out west.  But they've done some really stupid things here in PA as well.  Pales in comparison to Attitash and Wildcat, but still.


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2021)

Congrats on the 4 miles, that’s the dream.


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Ski Roundtop in southcentral PA, 4 miles from home.   I mean its great I have a pass I can use up north and out west.  But they've done some really stupid things here in PA as well.  Pales in comparison to Attitash and Wildcat, but still.


As far as I'm concerned every mountain should be the best version of itself no matter what the size or where the location.

This should be there philosophy if they really want to maintain their brand. They Drill all the core value "experience of a lifetime" into new employees. As a company if they wanted to continue to succeed they would live by this. I'll take cookie cutter mountains if they're day to day operations are solid


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

I mean it really is.  Sure the skiing isn't great, but its skiing 4 miles from home and there is some decently challenging steeps.  Yes they are super short. On the weekends there is a vibrant tailgating scene, at least vail hasn't shit on that yet.  There will be a mutiny if they do.  but again, what am I going to do drive 2 hours to Blue Mountain or 7 Springs?  Nope.  Vail has me by the balls.  So my goal is to ski as many days as possible to make the price per visit as low as possible.


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## thebigo (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I mean it really is.  Sure the skiing isn't great, but its skiing 4 miles from home and there is some decently challenging steeps.  Yes they are super short. On the weekends there is a vibrant tailgating scene, at least vail hasn't shit on that yet.  There will be a mutiny if they do.  but again, what am I going to do drive 2 hours to Blue Mountain or 7 Springs?  Nope.  Vail has me by the balls.  So my goal is to ski as many days as possible to make the price per visit as low as possible.


How is the infrastructure at the three south PA areas? Do they need lifts / snowmaking investment or are they in good shape?


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2021)

snoseek said:


> As far as I'm concerned every mountain should be the best version of itself no matter what the size or where the location.
> 
> This should be there philosophy if they really want to maintain their brand. They Drill all the core value "experience of a lifetime" into new employees. As a company if they wanted to continue to succeed they would live by this. I'll take cookie cutter mountains if they're day to day operations are solid


I mean, this seriously does not seem hard, and also obvious. I’m trying to equate the stupidity to another large corporation but drawing a blank.


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2021)

Edd said:


> I mean, this seriously does not seem hard, and also obvious. I’m trying to equate the stupidity to another large corporation but drawing a blank.


Pick any healthcare conglomerate.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

thebigo said:


> How is the infrastructure at the three south PA areas? Do they need lifts / snowmaking investment or are they in good shape?


snowmaking infrastructure is in pretty good shape.  Roundtop does have about 20 old highland fans on 2 trails but they are supplemented with newer technology. the other 2 are in similar shape. Roundtop has 5500 GPM pumping capacity to feed all of the fans.  they can lay it down when they want to.

Whitetail is the newest and biggest (~1000 vert) and has nice base facilities.  Roundtop's base lodge is small and old, but functional.  Liberty's is a mix, and they have a small hotel.

Lifts at Roundtop are old and are in need of replacement sooner than later.  There have been a few new lifts, but nothing in close to a decade.  Same with Liberty.  Whitetail is in good shape they have a high speed and some newer fixed grips, place was built in the 90s.


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## gittist (Dec 2, 2021)

Update directly from Vail:


RichT said:


> Everything is now 20% less accurate then it was before!


So you're saying that they're 80% accurate?  You're nice ...


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## gittist (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Ski Roundtop in southcentral PA, 4 miles from home.   I mean its great I have a pass I can use up north and out west.  But they've done some really stupid things here in PA as well.  Pales in comparison to Attitash and Wildcat, but still.


So what did Vail do here in PA?  I didn't even ski locally last year b/c of the COVID crap, like taking all of the tables out of the lodge at Jack Frost.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

They've killed a wildly popular night/club pass that was affordable and driven many of those people becasue they have no interest in skiing elsewhere or can't afford it.  They reduced night operations although I've heard that they'll only be closed Mon Tue nights this year.   Killed off the adult race league, which cost them no money to run it was sponsored by a local brewery and folks would happily drink beer in the bar after the race. 

I didn't go in the lodge last year so I honestly don't know what the deal was at Roundtop.


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They've killed a wildly popular night/club pass that was affordable and driven many of those people becasue they have no interest in skiing elsewhere or can't afford it.  They reduced night operations although I've heard that they'll only be closed Mon Tue nights this year.   Killed off the adult race league, which cost them no money to run it was sponsored by a local brewery and folks would happily drink beer in the bar after the race.
> 
> I didn't go in the lodge last year so I honestly don't know what the deal was at Roundtop.


Hmmm, that’s interesting news.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

without any regard to the local mountain, they just felt they could come in and force everyone into an EPIC Pass of some sort.  What they don't understand and even failed to try and understand is that there are people that are plenty happy to ski at night in south central PA after school or work.  They don't even want a $500 pass for the Northeast.  they just want an affordable pass to ski locally.   So instead of taking their $2-300, they are getting nothing.   Seems like simple math doesnt it?

For someone like me who skis a lot, and north and out west it's great.  But how does someone new get into the sport?  That's what the bozos in Broomfield, CO can't figure out.  I started in that program and graduated to a season pass for my entire family.  Now you are expecting people to jump right into a very expensive pass product out of the gate with no rental option or lesson and rental option.  Its ridiculous...


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2021)

abc said:


> Feeder hills


Given the size of their east coast resorts, I pretty sure we are beyond feeder hill status in the overall corporate income.


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Given the size of their east coast resorts, I pretty sure we are beyond feeder hill status in the overall corporate income.


Most pale compared to their Rocky Mountain resorts in size. Don’t fool yourself…


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Most pale compared to their Rocky Mountain resorts in size. Don’t fool yourself…


Sorry, I meant to say the number of resorts, not the size. I still think the overall pass sales and income might be coming close to what they get out west.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Sorry, I meant to say the number of resorts, not the size. I still think the overall pass sales and income might be coming close to what they get out west.



No way.  Just the lodging and f/b from Vail Village and Beaver Creek probably create more income than all the East.  But we'll never know for sure...or maybe they post it in their SEC filings by region?  

The East Coast resorts serve two purposes.... get people to buy the pass and fly out west.  And (more importantly) Vail had snatched up all the properties in western North America they could...so to continue the growth they had to expand and buy EC properties.  

It's the 10,000+ beds in Vail Village and dozens of restaurants where a plate is $40 that make the money....there's nothing like that in the East that's even close to generating that much $$$.


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## slatham (Dec 2, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> For someone like me who skis a lot, and north and out west it's great.  But how does someone new get into the sport?  That's what the bozos in Broomfield, CO can't figure out.  I started in that program and graduated to a season pass for my entire family.  Now you are expecting people to jump right into a very expensive pass product out of the gate with no rental option or lesson and rental option.  Its ridiculous...


That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport. In the NE I figure the Indy's will fill the gap. But who is the reasonably priced Indy in SE PA? 

BTW, I grew up skiing Charnita (now Liberty), Roundtop and Blue Knob.


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> No way.  Just the lodging and f/b from Vail Village and Beaver Creek probably create more income than all the East.  But we'll never know for sure...or maybe they post it in their SEC filings by region?
> 
> The East Coast resorts serve two purposes.... get people to buy the pass and fly out west.  And (more importantly) Vail had snatched up all the properties in western North America they could...so to continue the growth they had to expand and buy EC properties.
> 
> It's the 10,000+ beds in Vail Village and dozens of restaurants where a plate is $40 that make the money....there's nothing like that in the East that's even close to generating that much $$$.


Vail does not own 10,000+ beds in Vail Village, they own 350 beds in Vail Village! They also don't own dozens of restaurants in Vail. Beaver Creek has just 120 vail owned beds.


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport. In the NE I figure the Indy's will fill the gap. But who is the reasonably priced Indy in SE PA?
> 
> BTW, I grew up skiing Charnita (now Liberty), Roundtop and Blue Knob.


Blue Knob is such a diamond in the rough. It's a shame that it's so isolated.


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> No way.  Just the lodging and f/b from Vail Village and Beaver Creek probably create more income than all the East.  But we'll never know for sure...or maybe they post it in their SEC filings by region?
> 
> The East Coast resorts serve two purposes.... get people to buy the pass and fly out west.  And (more importantly) Vail had snatched up all the properties in western North America they could...so to continue the growth they had to expand and buy EC properties.
> 
> It's the 10,000+ beds in Vail Village and dozens of restaurants where a plate is $40 that make the money....there's nothing like that in the East that's even close to generating that much $$$.


I find that extremely hard to believe if you actually looked at their financial details. Over 85% of Vail's revenue comes from their mountain segment (lift, ski school, on-mountain dining, retail, etc...with over 50% of that being lift ticket/pass revenue alone). Their lodging segment (including dining attributable to their lodge properties) is not responsible for anywhere near what the mountains themselves generate. If you look at it on a net income basis instead of revenue, the breakdown is even worse (over 95% attributable to mountain segment vs lodging).

So how can a segment that generates 5% of their net income be responsible for more than what the entire east generates? (and realistically that 5% includes more than just the Vail/Beaver Creek lodging and dining)


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## Cobbold (Dec 2, 2021)

mbedle said:


> Vail does not own 10,000+ beds in Vail Village, they own 350 beds in Vail Village! They also don't own dozens of restaurants in Vail. Beaver Creek has just 120 vail owned beds.


I believe vail resorts has around 5000 hotel rooms that either they own or manage, marriot chain I think has 1.5 million, my guess at any one time Marriott probably cant account for 5000 rooms, but in the ski industry 5k is a lot, 5k number from vails  10k/10Q filings


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport. In the NE I figure the Indy's will fill the gap. But who is the reasonably priced Indy in SE PA?
> 
> BTW, I grew up skiing Charnita (now Liberty), Roundtop and Blue Knob.





mbedle said:


> Blue Knob is such a diamond in the rough. It's a shame that it's so isolated.



When the snow is good at Blue Knob it's a very good place. Has some really good steeps and trees.  When it's not it's really bad.  Went to college in Johnstown so I've skied that place in all kinds of conditions.  Haven't been back in 20+ years.  Going to try ad change that this year if the snow is good.

It's just baffling Vail can't see the value in entry level skiers on a budget.


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## Harvey (Dec 2, 2021)

slatham said:


> That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport.


Seems like Vail is leaving the longterm to the little guys.  Hope the little guys make it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2021)

just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2021)

A comment on the Northeast being feeder hills for Vail.  I asked a friend who worked in marketing for Vail what percentage of Northeast skiers also use their Epic Pass out west.  The number is in the single digits.  Granted, not a lot of years of data and two not so normal ones in a row.

But let's say it builds to 15%.  Don't they have to be cautious not to piss off 85% of that pass market that uses their New England areas exclusively?  I guess they're gambling on price and convenience always winning enough people over.


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## ThatGuy (Dec 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.


I wouldn’t like having to ride the chairlift up to end my day, but the layouts are interesting.


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> A comment on the Northeast being feeder hills for Vail.  I asked a friend who worked in marketing for Vail what percentage of Northeast skiers also use their Epic Pass out west.  The number is in the single digits.  Granted, not a lot of years of data and two not so normal ones in a row.
> 
> But let's say it builds to 15%.  Don't they have to be cautious not to piss off 85% of that pass market that uses their New England areas exclusively?  I guess they're gambling on price and convenience always winning enough people over.



Those numbers don't surprise me one bit. As much as people love to tout how great it is to have so many areas on a single pass...the fact is many people simply use it as a season pass to access their home resort or at best use it to access several resorts all in the same region. Traveling to different regions just is a different dynamic that doesn't work out for the majority of your typical skiers.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I believe vail resorts has around 5000 hotel rooms that either they own or manage, marriot chain I think has 1.5 million, my guess at any one time Marriott probably cant account for 5000 rooms, but in the ski industry 5k is a lot, 5k number from vails  10k/10Q filings



Exactly.  Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.  

Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger.  Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.    

If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.


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## cdskier (Dec 2, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Exactly.  Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.
> 
> Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger.  Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.
> 
> If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.


Did Vail even have a "model" 15 years ago? They owned 4 resorts at the time (Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Breck) and then purchased Heavenly from ASC when ASC was starting to crumble. They didn't come up with Epic pass yet at that time. Would they have had the money to buy any eastern resorts back then even if they wanted to? Expanding that quickly into the eastern market after watching ASC fall so quickly probably would not have been a smart move for VR at the time.

I still think you're over-estimating how much Vail generates from non-mountain activities in Vail/Beaver Creek.

That 5000 (actually should be 5500) number mentioned above includes ALL the lodging properties they own or manage across resorts in all regions... 



> Our Lodging segment includes owned and managed lodging properties, including those under our luxury hotel management company, RockResorts;
> managed condominium units which are in and around our mountain resorts in Colorado, Lake Tahoe, Utah, Vermont, New York and British Columbia,
> Canada;  two NPS concessionaire properties in and near Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming.


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## PAabe (Dec 3, 2021)

In PA most of the non-Vail places are still pretty reasonably priced imo.  Bear Creek, Montage, Spring are downright cheap.  Laurel, Shawnee, Tussey, Shawnee, Big Bear pretty inexpensive.  Blue has pretty good group rates, night, weekday rates, discounts in advance but they charge through the nose on busy weekends.  The Vail places are expensive all the time, even for weekday night tickets, $80 to night ski a weeknight at Roundtop, no way.

Ski Roundtop is actually a really nice hill for where it is geographically located.  Irving Naylor didn't like having to drive to Vermont to ski and he scouted out the single tallest and steepest hill in the whole county to build the place.  It is one of the biggest feeling 600ft hills you'll ski.  Steepest headwalls in the state since Montage regraded white lightning.  Seperated beginner area, great lesson program, winding trails, narrow trails, wide trails, bump trails, good park features, classic lodge, lift and trail system spreads everyone out well, people are friendly.  They also used to do a surprisingly good job in snowmaking product as well as getting it made early, late, and throughout the season in very marginal conditions considering the southernly and low elevation location (Vail has not been as aggressive surprise surprise).

Liberty was also under Naylor (Snow Time) and they took over Whitetail from the initial Japanese investors after some gas crises (Naylor bought a gas station and guaranteed skiers a fill up) and snow issues (they built Whitetail facing south! in southern PA).  I have heard that all 3 were highly profitable when Naylor sold them several years ago.  Apparently he was kind of picky about who he sold it to and decided on Peaks but sadly it has now ended up with Vail.

Most people I know ski/board at Roundtop, Bear Creek, or the Poconos.  Few people make the trek up north and even fewer make the rare trek out west.
Needless to say, the families, dirtbags, school clubs, and night skiers no longer ski at Roundtop as much.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 3, 2021)

Roundtop is real nice for its size and def feels like it has a locals party going on, though if I lived near there I'd still drive to Whitetail for the bigger vertical and challenge (other than those couple short headwalls) most times I wanted to ski more than a couple hours. 

Liberty bored me even in beautiful fresh snow conditions and I will not return. Felt like every run should be green and lifts were interminable.


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## PAabe (Dec 3, 2021)

I actually have never made it to whitetail - ski Roundtop is the closest area to me, but I can get to anywhere in the poconos faster than whitetail which has a reputation for being very crowded and a little pricier than the poconos.  If I ever get a snowtime/epic pass I'll definitely check it out though.  Used to get the snowtime Advantage card when they did that, also did their ski club when I was a kid, and made it over to Liberty but never the whole way out to Whitetail.  We were unimpressed by Liberty's terrain and how crazy crowded it was, this was years ago, I can only image what it's like under epic.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 3, 2021)

you wouldn't drive to whitetail, not on the weekend anyways.  that place has been way over crowded pre-vail I can only imagine what its like now. The last time I was there on a Sunday I did 8 runs in 4 hours.  That was easily 8 years ago. The snow is often shit because it faces southeast.  Even though you get nearly 1000 vert, the blues all ski exactly the same (think Okemo),  I will say that the expert runs are nice with some longer sustained pitch.  In the Spring the expert bump run under the chair is pretty sweet.  But Again the crowds.  I would only ever ski longer than a few hours there mainly because it was nearly a 2 hour drive.  That's my perspective from someone who lives 4 miles from Roundtop though.   And yes  no one skis more than 3 hours at Roundtop.  On the weekends in the winter there is often more time spent drinking beer in the parking lot than actually skiing, especially if its a nice day out.  Think the beach A-Basin, but with obviously much tamer skiing and scenery


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## PAabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Hey roundtop has cool scenery - Three Mile Island, radio towers, power lines, the beautiful Harrisburg skyline lol... the farms and the Susquehanna are nice enough anyway if not exactly alpine


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 3, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> you wouldn't drive to whitetail, not on the weekend anyways.  that place has been way over crowded pre-vail I can only imagine what its like now. The last time I was there on a Sunday I did 8 runs in 4 hours.  That was easily 8 years ago. The snow is often shit because it faces southeast.  Even though you get nearly 1000 vert, the blues all ski exactly the same (think Okemo),  I will say that the expert runs are nice with some longer sustained pitch.  In the Spring the expert bump run under the chair is pretty sweet.  But Again the crowds.  I would only ever ski longer than a few hours there mainly because it was nearly a 2 hour drive.  That's my perspective from someone who lives 4 miles from Roundtop though.   And yes  no one skis more than 3 hours at Roundtop.  On the weekends in the winter there is often more time spent drinking beer in the parking lot than actually skiing, especially if its a nice day out.  Think the beach A-Basin, but with obviously much tamer skiing and scenery


I've had several great days at Whitetail when I chose it over Hunter - which is closer to me - either because a storm was targeting the Whitetail area or because it was gonna be like -5 at Hunter and 25 at Whitetail. Love their Exhibition bump run that softens up nicely in afternoon.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 3, 2021)

I keep saying I am going to blow off work and ski down there mid-week, but I guess it comes down to being too lazy to drive 1:45 as opposed to 7 minutes


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 3, 2021)

anyone been to Mt snow or Okemo yet? How is it out there? I'm trying to decide if the drive is worth it for what they have open. Sunapee opened today and is 50 minutes from my house but 1 run open basically. Mt snow or Okemo have a few more trial but are 2 hrs and 2.5 hrs away from my house. 

heading somewhere tomorrow. at least I'll be skiing!

thanks!


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## jaytrem (Dec 3, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.


Yeah, super cool place.  Finally got there last year.  Kept waiting for the right conditions, it took a while.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 3, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> anyone been to Mt snow or Okemo yet? How is it out there? I'm trying to decide if the drive is worth it for what they have open. Sunapee opened today and is 50 minutes from my house but 1 run open basically. Mt snow or Okemo have a few more trial but are 2 hrs and 2.5 hrs away from my house.
> 
> heading somewhere tomorrow. at least I'll be skiing!
> 
> thanks!


Mt Snow made a lots of snow on a bunch of trail.  So far they haven't opened many of them though and the only one they specifically mentioned opening tomorrow is on the lower half of Carinthia.  Lousy communication, so who knows what the weekend will bring.  Could have 4 trails open or could have 9 or 10.  One thing for sure though, VAIL SUCKS!


----------



## spiderpig (Dec 3, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Exactly.  Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.
> 
> Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger.  Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.
> 
> If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.


I think the only beds they own at Okemo are the ones they couldn't sell since the time the new developments were built. They do manage the rentals of plenty of them for a good percentage though.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 3, 2021)

So the latest rumor in the MWV is that the pump for upper mtn snowmaking at wildcat is broken. Unknown if/when it will get fixed this winter.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 3, 2021)

Opening Day at The Cat -  Hopefully

 
             WildcatMtnAlerts                    @WildcatMtn


Good morning. ALL LIFTS are currently on wind hold. We will continue to evaluate.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 3, 2021)

Attitash just announced that they will have opening day next Friday the 10th on their social media platforms


----------



## machski (Dec 3, 2021)

Loved Sunapee's opening today.  Had to wait til this morning to get any idea what would be open.  Pathetic


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 3, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> So the latest rumor in the MWV is that the pump for upper mtn snowmaking at wildcat is broken. Unknown if/when it will get fixed this winter.


Lol The Cat loves having snowmaking problems... going all the way back to the pre-Peak days! But you would think that now with Vail’s pull, there should be no issue getting pump parts.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 3, 2021)

Yes that's part of the fun! Never know when a groomer could turn into a bump run for a season! 

If they are delayed in fixing upper mtn snowmaking maybe it's a covid supply chain problem? They had trouble getting parts to fix the bobcat chair last winter.


----------



## Hoodoo (Dec 3, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> When the snow is good at Blue Knob it's a very good place. Has some really good steeps and trees.  When it's not it's really bad.  Went to college in Johnstown so I've skied that place in all kinds of conditions.  Haven't been back in 20+ years.  Going to try ad change that this year if the snow is good.
> 
> It's just baffling Vail can't see the value in entry level skiers on a budget.


+1 regarding Blue Knob. The terrain is funky. Totally uncrowded midweek. When the snow is good, it is GOOD. When bad, it's absolutely horrible. Like worst of the East Coast worst ice sheet. I once hit it back in ~97 or so with 2+ foot of blower. It was insane. As was the access road.

If during the planning process, they could have somehow extended over (up) to Turkey Point or down to Bullscrick falls, they would have had some serious terrain. Mind you, it would have been more for current ownership to neglect, but, still.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Dec 3, 2021)

I skied Sunapee today and Okemo twice earlier this week. Okemo had enough scratchy surfaces to be annoying. Plenty skied off by 11AM. Sunapee was rather nice today (opening day). Better groomed on limited terrain and they had to have rain yesterday. Sunapee has no natural snow to speak of, top to bottom. I think they will be much slower to open new terrain than Okemo. Facilities are pretty bad at both. Heated tent at my home mountain Magic and plenty of porta potties is lux in comparison.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> I skied Sunapee today and Okemo twice earlier this week. Okemo had enough scratchy surfaces to be annoying. Plenty skied off by 11AM. Sunapee was rather nice today (opening day). Better groomed on limited terrain and they had to have rain yesterday. Sunapee has no natural snow to speak of, top to bottom. I think they will be much slower to open new terrain than Okemo. Facilities are pretty bad at both. Heated tent at my home mountain Magic and plenty of porta potties is lux in comparison.



How so in regards to the facilities at Sunapee?  I thought their base lodge at the HSQ was nice enough.  The Spruce lodge is obviously quite tired


----------



## JoeB-Z (Dec 3, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> How so in regards to the facilities at Sunapee?  I thought their base lodge at the HSQ was nice enough.  The Spruce lodge is obviously quite tired


I just mean vaccine card to get in the lodge, no bags allowed, premade food. The base lodge in itself is quite nice. It also has an elevator to save your aching legs a bit. I booted up at the car and used a porta potty on the far side of the lot. I hate walking in boots.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> I just mean vaccine card to get in the lodge, no bags allowed, premade food. The base lodge in itself is quite nice. It also has an elevator to save your aching legs a bit. I booted up at the car and used a porta potty on the far side of the lot. I hate walking in boots.


Need to upgrade to boots with walking mode - helps a little anyway.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 3, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Yes that's part of the fun! Never know when a groomer could turn into a bump run for a season!
> 
> If they are delayed in fixing upper mtn snowmaking maybe it's a covid supply chain problem? They had trouble getting parts to fix the bobcat chair last winter.


First they have to hire a few Maintenance guys. Then they can figure out what's wrong, and what  to order. Then we'll hear about how  everything is all  the supply chain fault...


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 4, 2021)

Both Cat and Attitash webcams are down... how convenient...


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 4, 2021)

They were making snow on snowcat this afternoon. 

Multiple employees confirmed that they have been unable to pump water to the upper mtn. The story is that they had the pumps rebuilt this summer and one of them does not work. I could not get any intel on if/when they will be fixed.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 4, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Both Cat and Attitash webcams are down... how convenient...


Down  ???  Technically they haven't been Up yet.  At least not since April..


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Down  ???  Technically they haven't been Up yet.  At least not since April..


Gotcha. Still pathetic. Lol


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 4, 2021)

An enhanced experience coming to Crotched. No night skiing in December. Looks to include Christmas week. Epic.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 4, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> An enhanced experience coming to Crotched. No night skiing in December. Looks to include Christmas week. Epic.


Oh what the fuck!


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 4, 2021)

Usually the first week or 2 they don't do night skiing or I've seen some weird midweek hours like 10-6.   But none during Christmas week?  Wow


----------



## machski (Dec 4, 2021)

Vail = Epic Fail in NH this year so far anyway


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 4, 2021)

They'll probably try that bullshit down here in PA next...


----------



## thebigo (Dec 4, 2021)

I have definitely skiied opening day at crotch under the lights within the last few years. I think it was the first year under vail, they got around a foot of fresh day before opening but left everything without snowmaking roped.


----------



## urungus (Dec 5, 2021)

anyone else having issues with their EpicMix app today ?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 5, 2021)

The lowly mid Atlantic "resorts" aren't blessed with EpixMix so I'm no help


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The lowly mid Atlantic "resorts" aren't blessed with EpixMix so I'm no help


Vail said recently all 34 North American mountains will have EpicMix this season.


----------



## Edd (Dec 5, 2021)

Can’t tell 100% that Wildcat is open daily. Guess we’ll know tomorrow?


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 5, 2021)

Edd said:


> Can’t tell 100% that Wildcat is open daily. Guess we’ll know tomorrow?


Website says open daily but we will see....


----------



## Mainer (Dec 5, 2021)

Heard wildcat was a sheet of ice and cranmore was nice this weekend


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2021)

Major snafu at PCMR yesterday.  Red Pine Gondola went on wind hold for an extended amount of time stranding hundreds of skiers and riders at Red Pine Lodge with no way down.  Since there is no snow, downloading is required.  

Apparently, PCMR had been making snow on Chicane but did not have enough to open it.  They opened it anyway to get folks out using shuttle vans.  A real mess.  









						Skiers Were Reportedly Stranded at Park City For "4 Hours"
					

Seems like the skiing and riding experience over at Park City Mountain Resort’s open terrain at Canyons Village was an absolute dumpster fire yesterday. We received a lot of this information …




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 6, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Website says open daily but we will see....View attachment 52349


Website for today says tomcat is running, 4 trails. Same as Sat & Sun

Word for Sunday was "IT SUCKED BIGTIME" from a couple of 12 years olds


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Major snafu at PCMR yesterday.  Red Pine Gondola went on wind hold for an extended amount of time stranding hundreds of skiers and riders at Red Pine Lodge with no way down.  Since there is no snow, downloading is required.
> 
> Apparently, PCMR had been making snow on Chicane but did not have enough to open it.  They opened it anyway to get folks out using shuttle vans.  A real mess.
> 
> ...


In their defense, people were safe at Red Pine and they might not have been safe on the gondola. A mess for sure but the alternative was to not even try to open yesterday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> In their defense, people were safe at Red Pine and they might not have been safe on the gondola. A mess for sure but the alternative was to not even try to open yesterday.


I don't recall if high winds were forecast.  If they were not then I might understand the situation.  On the otherhand it does seem like a bad situation that should be avoided.  Not good planning if that was the case.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Major snafu at PCMR yesterday.  Red Pine Gondola went on wind hold for an extended amount of time stranding hundreds of skiers and riders at Red Pine Lodge with no way down.  Since there is no snow, downloading is required.
> 
> Apparently, PCMR had been making snow on Chicane but did not have enough to open it.  They opened it anyway to get folks out using shuttle vans.  A real mess.
> 
> ...



I have always wondered what K would do if the gondi went down on a busy early season saturday.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I have always wondered what K would do if the gondi went down on a busy early season saturday.


Tell people to start walking and give them a coupon for a free hot chocolate at the bottom?

I wonder if they could download people on that quad that's in between Northridge and the Gondola to get people most of the way there?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 6, 2021)

I think the easiest bet would be to download from the Snowdon triple or six.  Not a far walk from the base of North Ridge


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Tell people to start walking and give them a coupon for a free hot chocolate at the bottom?
> 
> I wonder if they could download people on that quad that's in between Northridge and the Gondola to get people most of the way there?


Now that you mention it, I remember in 2000 going up to Killington and they were using the Canyon Quad to download with a truck to shuttle skiers to the lift.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Now that you mention it, I remember in 2000 going up to Killington and they were using the Canyon Quad to download with a truck to shuttle skiers to the lift.


The truck was SOP for a number of years, rumor was insurance shut it down. One year I uploaded on the K1 and rode the truck down to the glades triple.

I am sure they have a contingency plan, they would probably ask people to walk to the six.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> The truck was SOP for a number of years, rumor was insurance shut it down. One year I uploaded on the K1 and rode the truck down to the glades triple.
> 
> I am sure they have a contingency plan, they would probably ask people to walk to the six.


I think 2000 was the last year of the truck.


----------



## abc (Dec 6, 2021)

This talk of K in early season brought back some memory for me!

I was a relatively new skiers and I didn't know much. I could ski blues and some easy blacks. With only limited trails open in early season, I found myself stuck at a junction with a "closed" sign on the blue trail I intended to ski down. Moving on, I found myself at a dead end with the only way down a "black"...

Granted, it's just a steeper blue as it was groomed flat. That is, hard pack flat. Thankfully, it was short enough I straightlined it (or a couple of half-ass "turns") to the cat tracks below.

That motivated me to speed up my learning by taking a couple of "intermediate" level classes. In the mean time, I learned to not bother skiing early season. All in all, improved skills and choosing when to ski (or NOT to ski) based on condition/percentage open, my enjoyment of the sport had gone substantially better. 

Now, I can ski them WROD. But I just won't bother to.


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 6, 2021)

abc said:


> This talk of K in early season brought back some memory for me!
> 
> I was a relatively new skiers and I didn't know much. I could ski blues and some easy blacks. With only limited trails open in early season, I found myself stuck at a junction with a "closed" sign on the blue trail I intended to ski down. Moving on, I found myself at a dead end with the only way down a "black"...
> 
> ...


Last year early season at Sunapee a bit similar. Ridge (the easiest blue from the top was not open). But no sign at the top saying that so families and beginners headed in the direction that usually is the easiest route and then had to slide down upper blast off or walk back up.  okay upper blast off is not exactly long or hard, but for a beginner expecting Ridge would be a bit of a surprise.


----------



## machski (Dec 6, 2021)

thebigo said:


> The truck was SOP for a number of years, rumor was insurance shut it down. One year I uploaded on the K1 and rode the truck down to the glades triple.
> 
> I am sure they have a contingency plan, they would probably ask people to walk to the six.


I had heard a skier that may have had a few too many actually fell off the back of the truck.  That would surely cause insurance to shut that down.  I always liked that option though.  Got you straight to the snow and off it.  A beefed up bus seemed like it would work with the Canyon Quad set up, I'm sure that is the likely backup to the K1.  But I do like the current stair setup too, nice to walk back up for lunch and a brew early season, especially when Great Northern to get into NR is in play.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 6, 2021)

As far as im concerned..skiing is a risky enevour..especialy in the bigger mountains..shit happens..weather happens...you have to be ready for whatever happens. Its not disney world...


----------



## abc (Dec 6, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Its not disney world...


But it is.

Not only the so called "big mountain" of the east is Disney World. Even Mt Everest is just... Disney World!


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 6, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> I wouldn’t mind alot of mountains removing some glades from their maps.


This generally means that they don’t want to maintain them anymore. After x amount of years and a few good wind events they may not ski so great any longer.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 7, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> it sure is a great way to trigger assholes that voted for Biden


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> As far as im concerned..skiing is a risky enevour..especialy in the bigger mountains..shit happens..weather happens...you have to be ready for whatever happens. Its not disney world...


Yeah, I’d call this a first world “problem” for sure.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

Anyone that still buys into identity politics is an idiot.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

Just going by the webcams I don't see any snowmaking going on at Attitash or Wildcat.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 7, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Just going by the webcams I don't see any snowmaking going on at Attitash or Wildcat.


Don't have enough guys to run both day/nite shifts.

Some of them will also have to cover Attitash...  
They have some serious work to do if they're really planning to Open this fri


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Don't have enough guys to run both day/nite shifts.
> 
> Some of them will also have to cover Attitash...
> They have some serious work to do if they're really planning to Open this fri


De ja vu all over again.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> De ja vu all over again.


I was gonna say its a carbon copy of last year.


----------



## Edd (Dec 7, 2021)

Last year I didn’t hit Wildcat until early January, which is weird, kinda being my home hill. Did a combo of Sunapee, Gunstock, Bretton Woods for a month before finally going.


----------



## Dickc (Dec 7, 2021)

Was at Sunapee Sunday and an employee told me he thought some of the Sunapee snowmakers were on loan to Okemo, but would be back in a week or two so as to expand Sunapee then.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

On the TGR Tahoe forum the posters are saying that Vail doesn’t give a damn about Kirkwood either. The epic corporate ski model is starting to really show its shortcomings.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> On the TGR Tahoe forum the posters are saying that Vail doesn’t give a damn about Kirkwood either. The epic corporate ski model is starting to really show its shortcomings.



Not as big of a deal at a place with 500" annual natural snowfall.  Here in the East, austerity measures have a much larger impact on operations.    Their failures compared to the local competition in NH are glaring again this year.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Not as big of a deal at a place with 500" annual natural snowfall.  Here in the East, austerity measures have a much larger impact on operations.    Their failures compared to the local competition in NH are glaring again this year.


Yet I know plenty of people who said Wildcat and Vail sucked last year, yet they still bought and Epic pass this year, expecting something different... you can’t fix stupid


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> On the TGR Tahoe forum the posters are saying that Vail doesn’t give a damn about Kirkwood either. The epic corporate ski model is starting to really show its shortcomings.


I was unlucky enough to be there for the years during and after vail acquired kirkwood. It was pretty bad but honestly this is a whole other level.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yet I know plenty of people who said Wildcat and Vail sucked last year, yet they still bought and Epic pass this year, expecting something different... you can’t fix stupid


I'm that person but I hedge with a cannon pass and ski alot in the winter. I'll easily get my money worth it's more of an moral dilemma supporting them which is ongoing for me. I would rather see them figure it out than go under but apparently that's not gonna happen


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yet I know plenty of people who said Wildcat and Vail sucked last year, yet they still bought and Epic pass this year, expecting something different... you can’t fix stupid



I think their gamble is that people will continue to look past their incompetence provided the pass remains cheap.  

I would not be one of those people.  I'm someone who would pay more if they delivered a more premium product.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I think their gamble is that people will continue to look past their incompetence provided the pass remains cheap.
> 
> I would not be one of those people.  I'm someone who would pay more if they delivered a more premium product.


Assuming it stays the same I'll be moving on for sure this time. I've got alot of midweek time so it's a compelling list of.mountains and hard to pass up.
If I was skiing mostly weekends then not a chance in hell I would buy anything epic


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Assuming it stays the same I'll be moving on for sure this time. I've got alot of midweek time so it's a compelling list of.mountains and hard to pass up.
> If I was skiing mostly weekends then not a chance in hell I would buy anything epic



If I had your schedule, I might have given them one more year.   Having Crotched and Sunapee as easy day trips was nice.  Ikon and Boyne don't have something similar in NH.  Though Cannon plus Ikon might be a good pairing to ski Loon midweek.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If I had your schedule, I might have given them one more year.   Having Crotched and Sunapee as easy day trips was nice.  Ikon and Boyne don't have something similar in NH.  Though Cannon plus Ikon might be a good pairing to ski Loon midweek.


I would rather drive the 10-15 minutes more to cannon than ski loon if I had both passes.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I would rather drive the 10-15 minutes more to cannon than ski loon if I had both passes.



Most of the time yes, but following bad weather Loon is going to be a bit quicker to recover.  It's not a bad mountain to ski groomers when it is uncrowded.   I can also see scenarios in the spring when the bumps will soften earlier in the day than Cannon


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> On the TGR Tahoe forum the posters are saying that Vail doesn’t give a damn about Kirkwood either. The epic corporate ski model is starting to really show its shortcomings.





deadheadskier said:


> Not as big of a deal at a place with 500" annual natural snowfall.  Here in the East, austerity measures have a much larger impact on operations.    Their failures compared to the local competition in NH are glaring again this year.


You're assuming the complain has anything to do with snowmaking, which isn't the issue!

Friend who ski Kirkwood complained it has cut its season length substantially in the spring. Given the "other" Vail property has lower elevation, the shortening of Kirkwood is in effect cutting the season for all Epic pass holder in Tahoe area.

The competition with other local mountains in Tahoe is equally glaring. I quite often go out to Tahoe in spring time. But that's to ski Squaw-Alpine (or Mt Rose). Granted, I'm not the demographic Vail are interested in anyway...


----------



## Harvey (Dec 7, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yet I know plenty of people who said Wildcat and Vail sucked last year, yet they still bought and Epic pass this year, expecting something different... you can’t fix stupid


You can't buy an epic pass and complain about Vail. IMHO.

Ok maybe one year. But not two in a row.  When you buy that pass you are saying "keep it up Rob, great job!"


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2021)

Harvey said:


> You can't buy an epic pass and complain about Vail. IMHO.
> 
> Ok maybe one year. But not two in a row.  When you buy that pass you are saying "keep it up Rob, great job!"


Some people have no choice. They have property in a mountain Vail bought.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

Watch me. I paid good money for the right to complain!


Harvey said:


> You can't buy an epic pass and complain about Vail. IMHO.
> 
> Ok maybe one year. But not two in a row.  When you buy that pass you are saying "keep it up Rob, great job!"


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

abc said:


> You're assuming the complain has anything to do with snowmaking, which isn't the issue!
> 
> Friend who ski Kirkwood complained it has cut its season length substantially in the spring. Given the "other" Vail property has lower elevation, the shortening of Kirkwood is in effect cutting the season for all Epic pass holder in Tahoe area.
> 
> The competition with other local mountains in Tahoe is equally glaring. I quite often go out to Tahoe in spring time. But that's to ski Squaw-Alpine (or Mt Rose). Granted, I'm not the demographic Vail are interested in anyway...




I know it's hard for you to grasp this abc, but it's not always about you.  I wasn't replying to your message.

I know others who are / were Kirkwood skiers as well. 

All I'm saying is that in the West, Vails operational shortcomings can often get bailed out by mother nature.   Here in the East, they won't get so lucky and it appears they do not grasp just how important snowmaking efforts are to the local clientele and also frequently communicating where / when snow is being made.

Carry on


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I know it's hard for you to grasp this abc, but it's not always about you.  I wasn't replying to your message.
> 
> I know others who are / were Kirkwood skiers as well.
> 
> ...


Maybe so a lot of the time but right now Kirkwood isn’t going to open without snowmaking. It’s becoming more of a thing with a changing climate.

I imagine Vail gets the east coast ski area business but are focused on areas that make them the real money. They know the numbers.


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I know it's hard for you to grasp this abc, but it's not always about you. I wasn't replying to your message.


It seems you're the one who's unable to grasp!

You have completely missed the issue raised by another poster. But I guess that's entirely impossible for you to grasp too.

With moderators like this, no wonder this forum has the vibe it does.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Maybe so a lot of the time but right now Kirkwood isn’t going to open without snowmaking. It’s becoming more of a thing with a changing climate.
> 
> I imagine Vail gets the east coast ski area business but are focused on areas that make them the real money. They know the numbers.



At some point I wonder if Vail's data driven approach, that often looks at the much more immediate short term data and how it plays into short term revenue and operational and investment decision making, will end up potentially negatively affecting their revenue and product sales say 5yr or more from now because of decisions made today? 

Especially now that many of their properties, and properties that attract plenty of customers as well as their surrounding areas providing potential employees, are now in areas and of a different type of primary clientele (day trippers and even in some cases night trippers vs. destination resorts with extended stays)?

While ultimately its about skiing and riding in both type of resorts, there are certainly distinct differences in what the expectations of the primary clientele are, and the long term affects that that may have could end up being more significant than short term data analysis of the past season or two


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2021)

drjeff said:


> data driven approach


There're lies, damn lies, then there're statistics!  

"Data" can be looked at in different ways. Ultimately, it's up to Vail management to choose whether they want to focus on short, intermediate or long term.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2021)

abc said:


> It seems you're the one who's unable to grasp!
> 
> You have completely missed the issue raised by another poster. But I guess that's entirely impossible for you to grasp too.
> 
> With moderators like this, no wonder this forum has the vibe it does.



I wasn't asking for a conversation with you abc

I never am ......


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

drjeff said:


> At some point I wonder if Vail's data driven approach, that often looks at the much more immediate short term data and how it plays into short term revenue and operational and investment decision making, will end up potentially negatively affecting their revenue and product sales say 5yr or more from now because of decisions made today?
> 
> Especially now that many of their properties, and properties that attract plenty of customers as well as their surrounding areas providing potential employees, are now in areas and of a different type of primary clientele (day trippers and even in some cases night trippers vs. destination resorts with extended stays)?
> 
> While ultimately its about skiing and riding in both type of resorts, there are certainly distinct differences in what the expectations of the primary clientele are, and the long term affects that that may have could end up being more significant than short term data analysis of the past season or two


Data is can be a good start but numbers often don’t tell the whole story.

It would be fun to be a fly on the wall during their marketing meetings


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Watch me. I paid good money for the right to complain!


They discounted the price 20%...so you need to complain 20% less!


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I wasn't asking for a conversation with you abc


Huh? 

This is a public forum. We were not "having a private conversation"! 

Besides, if you're not "having a conversation", then the thing to do is NOT to writing more post on the subject... Or is that too difficult to grasp?


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 7, 2021)

Get over it & Move on.
You're both ruining a good thread


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Get over it & Move on.
> You're both ruining a good thread


Yup. They should get a room at motel 6 and have some of that hot and steamy man on man hate love.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

drjeff said:


> At some point I wonder if Vail's data driven approach, that often looks at the much more immediate short term data and how it plays into short term revenue and operational and investment decision making, will end up potentially negatively affecting their revenue and product sales say 5yr or more from now because of decisions made today?
> 
> Especially now that many of their properties, and properties that attract plenty of customers as well as their surrounding areas providing potential employees, are now in areas and of a different type of primary clientele (day trippers and even in some cases night trippers vs. destination resorts with extended stays)?
> 
> While ultimately its about skiing and riding in both type of resorts, there are certainly distinct differences in what the expectations of the primary clientele are, and the long term affects that that may have could end up being more significant than short term data analysis of the past season or two



Are you saying short sightedness driven by greed might eventually bight them in the ass? Ha! I think that’s a strong possibility.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 7, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Are you saying short sightedness driven by greed might eventually bight them in the ass? Ha! I think that’s a strong possibility.


Not so sure if it's all about greed, or possibly some greed with a healthy side of trying to "force" folks into the Vail big resort model that has generally worked out West at destination resorts, but may not be nearly as applicable in the day to day operations of generally smaller Eastern and Midwestern resorts that rely for the vast majority of their customers as day (or night) and weekend at most visits, where the geographic driving distance of so many of their properties and the large population base within that driving distance, makes things like more transparent snow reporting more pertinent than for the Western resorts where so many booked their travel weeks or months in advance and will go regardless of the weather in the immediate few days prior.

I will be curious over the next year or so to see if the new CEO makes any pivots in operations positions compares to what Rob Katz did?


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Not so sure if it's all about greed, or possibly some greed with a healthy side of trying to "force" folks into the Vail big resort model that has generally worked out West at destination resorts, but may not be nearly as applicable in the day to day operations of generally smaller Eastern and Midwestern resorts that rely for the vast majority of their customers as day (or night) and weekend at most visits, where the geographic driving distance of so many of their properties and the large population base within that driving distance, makes things like more transparent snow reporting more pertinent than for the Western resorts where so many booked their travel weeks or months in advance and will go regardless of the weather in the immediate few days prior.
> 
> I will be curious over the next year or so to see if the new CEO makes any pivots in operations positions compares to what Rob Katz did?


I like that. This is interesting for sure.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 7, 2021)

Well if anyone has a brain in Broomfield they should realize that there needs to be pivoting.  There is a way to utilize their "pass" model as well as business models that have worked in the east in the past.  They just need to stop being so narrow minded and "all in" on the unified one size fits all.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 7, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Well if anyone has a brain in Broomfield they should realize that there needs to be pivoting.  There is a way to utilize their "pass" model as well as business models that have worked in the east in the past.  They just need to stop being so narrow minded and "all in" on the unified one size fits all.



Eh....to be fair, Vail has a stupid, incomprehensible number of season pass options.  Like a lot of members have said...some are such a good deal they can't not buy a pass...senior, midweek, military, local, etc.  Honestly I wish Ikon had a lower tier budget option, like a $500 midweek pass.  My current plan for 2022-2023 season is to re-join Ikon and teach full-time at Alta again (if I like it, of course).  That's a tough, expensive pill to swallow as I would probably only manage 12-15 Ikon days across the season, mostly pre-Christmas and post-early April so very weather dependent.


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## snoseek (Dec 7, 2021)

Epic pass gives me a fat discount as a veteran. Ikon you need to be active or fully retired so the price difference is pretty significant but in the end worth it. The problem I have with ikon is there's no unlimited options under 2.5 hours which is an issue


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Yup. They should get a room at motel 6 and have some of that hot and steamy man on man hate love.


ABC is a female


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 8, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Epic pass gives me a fat discount as a veteran. Ikon you need to be active or fully retired so the price difference is pretty significant but in the end worth it. The problem I have with ikon is there's no unlimited options under 2.5 hours which is an issue


We would have switched to Ikon if there had been a closer unlimited option as well.  2 hrs really is our limit for a day trip  (from Boston) and with all the other kid activities we have it’s hard to do many full weekend trips.  Maybe next year, woild love to try a coupe of the  Ikon western resort for our annual bigger trip.


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## Mainer (Dec 8, 2021)

I’m definitely a vail hater. But I got epic passes for the family, 2 mwv chamber passes, and a cranmore meisters pass for the same price as Shawnee peak season passes for the family. 
   I Love reading the wildcat Facebook page comments but they may have stopped allowing them


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## raisingarizona (Dec 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> ABC is a female


Damn it!


----------



## Harvey (Dec 8, 2021)

abc said:


> Some people have no choice. They have property in a mountain Vail bought.


We all make choices. Some don't work out well.  It's life.

Is there anyone who buys real estate (or any investment) not knowing it's a gamble?


----------



## Harvey (Dec 8, 2021)

abc said:


> it's up to Vail management to choose whether they want to focus on short, intermediate or long term.


I think that choice has been made.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2021)

Harvey said:


> We all make choices. Some don't work out well.  It's life.
> 
> Is there anyone who buys real estate (or any investment) not knowing it's a gamble?


Not every real estate purchase is "investment".

So no, it's not a gamble for many. Unless you consider everyday life as a gamble.


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## Harvey (Dec 8, 2021)

I get that. We'd never sell our place, so if you won't ever sell it, it's really not an investment.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's a risk buying it. You knew that right?

If Vail bought Gore, I'd be bummed, and I'd consider our property less valuable.  I'm sure I'd buy a season pass too.  But I'd know full well that Rob Katz would interpret my purchase as approval of his business model.

I actually April Fooled about it in 2014:









						Vail Resorts Buys ORDA for $1.2B
					

Vail Buys ORDA: Resorts (VRMC) announced today that it has purchased New York's ORDA the state of New York for $1.2 billion dollars in cash.




					nyskiblog.com
				




It's one thing that is awesome about public ownership of Gore/WF/Belle.  Vail far less likely to be able to buy them.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I get that. We'd never sell our place, so if you won't ever sell it, it's really not an investment.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that it's a risk buying it. You knew that right?
> 
> ...



I feel the same about Cannon.  One of the things I loved about Wildcat is that it is just a ski area and not a resort.  It's all about the skiing and likely will be largely the same if / when I have grand kids that ski there.  Cannon is the same.   Unfortunately Vail doesn't take their stewardship of Wildcat seriously nor due they seem to realize the historical significance it has as a New England classic.   They either eventually get it or they sell it and I'll come running back quickly.  Otherwise I'll keep my spend elsewhere.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I get that. We'd never sell our place, so if you won't ever sell it, it's really not an investment.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that it's a risk buying it. You knew that right?


Living life carries risk too. But that doesn't mean living is a gamble.

Gamble means action targeting a specific outcome and knowing it may not materialize. Buying real estate isn't always a gamble. Not for many people. They prefer paying mortgage and maintenance rather than paying rent. Whether the real estate makes money or not is far down the consideration.



Harvey said:


> If Vail bought Gore, I'd be bummed, and I'd consider our property less valuable.


It maybe less valuable to you. But that's not necessarily less valuable to others.

You know that right?


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## thebigo (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Most of the time yes, but following bad weather Loon is going to be a bit quicker to recover.  It's not a bad mountain to ski groomers when it is uncrowded.   I can also see scenarios in the spring when the bumps will soften earlier in the day than Cannon





Smellytele said:


> I would rather drive the 10-15 minutes more to cannon than ski loon if I had both passes.


Did not ski loon for about a decade but enjoyed it last spring and this year. It is very good for what it is: high speed midweek cruising when you don't have a full day and we haven't gotten natural.

There may be point later in the season if the weather goes to shit I grab a couple nh days at cannon but good with ragged/boyne combo thus far.

Ski on high speed runs on walking boss this AM were best of the year. Damn near whiteout between the gun show and natural:


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## Edd (Dec 8, 2021)

Started my season at Sunapee today. Nice not to dick around with a mask while skiing.


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## Harvey (Dec 8, 2021)

abc said:


> Living life carries risk too. But that doesn't mean living is a gamble.
> 
> Gamble means action targeting a specific outcome and knowing it may not materialize. Buying real estate isn't always a gamble. Not for many people. They prefer paying mortgage and maintenance rather than paying rent. Whether the real estate makes money or not is far down the consideration.
> 
> ...


Right. But if I'll never sell, it doesn't matter.


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I get that. We'd never sell our place, so if you won't ever sell it, it's really not an investment.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that it's a risk buying it. You knew that right?
> 
> ...


Well Sunapee is state owned but is leased to vail so never say never.


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## Harvey (Dec 8, 2021)

You're right it could happen. Hope not.


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## Cobbold (Dec 8, 2021)

Edd said:


> Started my season at Sunapee today. Nice not to dick around with a mask while skiing.


How were the conditions?


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## Edd (Dec 8, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> How were the conditions?


Pretty decent considering they got rain a couple of days ago. Two routes that merge 2/3 of the way down so got boring fast.


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## Cobbold (Dec 8, 2021)

Edd said:


> Pretty decent considering they got rain a couple of days ago. Two routes that merge 2/3 of the way down so got boring fast.


This weekend looks like a killer, last time I checked two days of rain, hard for me to get excited about skiing this time of year with limited  terrain open, limited lifts running, but I did take 6 runs at mt snow last weekend, did get bored quick, probably won’t ski this weekend


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## drjeff (Dec 8, 2021)

3 more "Eastern" resorts  coming into the Epic portfolio.









						Vail Resorts to Acquire Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area in Pittsburgh Area | Vail Resorts Corporate
					





					news.vailresorts.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

just came to post this.

not sure what to think about this.


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## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

Holy crap just came to post this too...

RIP laurel mountain


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## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

DCSki Forums
					

A vibrant community of skiers and snowboarders.




					www.dcski.com


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## 2Planker (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 3 more "Eastern" resorts  coming into the Epic portfolio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let them buy all they want in PA.
We just hope they get the FU*K out of NH.
The sooner the better.

 Late Opening at WC today.  Short on  both lifties, and patrollers 
That is not a good sign, since you only have 1 lift and 4 trails to check.

God help them when it's 100% open


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## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2021)

That's not good for competition, but maybe Vail will put more effort into Laurel Mtn? Honestly how far can Vail go before they get smacked with anti trust legal action?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

they will shut down Laurel Mountain as soon as they can or as soon as the lease runs out with the state.  you can book that.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 3 more "Eastern" resorts  coming into the Epic portfolio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow.  Did anyone foresee this coming?


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## drjeff (Dec 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Did anyone foresee this coming?


Honestly I am not shocked at all, as it seems like their acquisition strategy lately is all about small to medium sized areas in larger population areas, which will ultimately drive the sale of more Epic passes, which sure seems like the business plan,

Lets just hope at somepoint the reality that running smaller areas in more populated areas requires some different thought processes than larger Western destination resorts.

Wouldn't shock me at all if Vail goes after a few more small/mid sized areas in the Midwest at some point


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

no I didn't.  7 Springs is a better destination resort than any of the other offerings in PA.  Big hotel, and lots of condos.  Hidden Valley has lots of on mountain lording in the form of homes and condos. Laurel mountain is a 1 lift ski area that is inside a State park.

Lake effect snow on the ridge out there makes conditions awesome at times.  the terrain is kinda meh otherwise.  Trees are in play including some side/backcountry.

I learned to Ski at 7s.  1.5 hrs from Pittsburgh.


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## snoseek (Dec 8, 2021)

What would ever happen if vail ever went under? How would that even work?

Also how come asc was jumped all over for antitrust but vail does pretty much as they please?


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2021)

“Vail Resorts is a perfect successor with a proven track record of honoring the unique character of each of its resorts”


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## trackbiker (Dec 8, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> they will shut down Laurel Mountain as soon as they can or as soon as the lease runs out with the state.  you can book that.


Correct. They will open late, close early, and have minimal snowmaking until the lease runs out.


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## x10003q (Dec 8, 2021)

It would have been better for Pirate fans everywhere if Vail bought the Pirates, too.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

x10003q said:


> It would have been better for Pirate fans everywhere if Vail bought the Pirates, too.


no shit...  that Nutting guy is bad news.  hopefully he's going to divest the Pirates now too.   I won't spend a dime in that stadium until he sells.  and if that's not in my lifetime, then so be it.


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## MadKitty (Dec 8, 2021)

trackbiker said:


> ...open late, close early, and have minimal snowmaking....


Looks like you've been paying attention to Vail's operational strategy! Sad day for yinzer skiers


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## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

How does Vail possibly have cash to still be buying up resorts?
HV and LM are dinky but 7 Springs is a major major operation, hotel, conference center, spa, condos...
Vail now owns 6/7 resorts in Southern PA and 8/20 in PA.

Regarding antitrust, Nutting's 7S/HV/LM was the largest competitor to Vail in the Baltimore/DC/central PA market.  This also neuters the Laurel Highlands pass, which cross honors with Wisp, Wintergreen, Ragged, Powderhorn, and Mt. Washington BC.

I am sure Vail wants nothing to do with Hidden Valley and Laurel Mountain and will neglect them even worse before.  Or else they will ruin the whole Laurel Mountain schtick with fat groomers and changes to the lodge.  LM is owned by the state of PA - maybe they will terminate their contract?


----------



## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

New theory is maybe KSL/Alterra will buy Blue Knob to compete with Vail.  As much as I hate to see the megacorps grow, Blue Knob more than anyone needs capital, and Vail needs competition.

Actually if anyone did buy Blue Knob, they could try to get the Laurel Mountain contract from the state if Vail isn't interested, and then they would have a pretty good combo pass for the Yinzer skiing.  The current owners seem to cash strapped to try to operate an additional mountain.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 8, 2021)

x10003q said:


> It would have been better for Pirate fans everywhere if Vail bought the Pirates, too.


would your epic pass be valid at pirates game? And get twenty percent off on food and drinks at the stadium


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

That sucks.  I like 7 Springs.  Probably my favorite of the Mid Atlantic ski areas I've been to.  I enjoyed it more than Snowshoe even

One can only hope that the continued debt growth accelerates Vails demise


----------



## drjeff (Dec 8, 2021)

PAabe said:


> New theory is maybe KSL/Alterra will buy Blue Knob to compete with Vail.  As much as I hate to see the megacorps grow, Blue Knob more than anyone needs capital, and Vail needs competition...



Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now.

I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2021)

snoseek said:


> how come asc was jumped all over for antitrust but vail does pretty much as they please?


Anyone got some thoughts on that?


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 8, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Also how come asc was jumped all over for antitrust but vail does pretty much as they please?


Probably more money for the right lawyers and lobbiests to grease the right wheels


----------



## x10003q (Dec 8, 2021)

PAabe said:


> How does Vail possibly have cash to still be buying up resorts?
> HV and LM are dinky but 7 Springs is a major major operation, hotel, conference center, spa, condos...
> Vail now owns 6/7 resorts in Southern PA and 8/20 in PA.
> 
> ...


If the investor statement is remotely accurate, the straight return will easily exceed the cost to borrow. Then there is the added profit in bringing this region into the Epic fold when they travel for bigger skiing.


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2021)

Seems like apart from BK and maybe Tussey, Western PA is locked up. CamelBlue in the NY/Philly region is way better than JFBB but it's not clear if those will join Icon or just pair up with each other. If Alterra can't get CamelBlue on their pass then there's no reason to even try in PA with Blue Knob - they're outgunned hard from the west, the south, and the east by better developed properties. If Alterra wants to commit to PA hard, I'd bet Montage and Elk get propositioned before BK does though I can't guess if either would be inclined to accept.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now.  Not really
> 
> I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface 100% Truth


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend.  Blaming mother nature.  Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"


----------



## Edd (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend.  Blaming mother nature.  Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"


Someone should tell them that on Instagram. Don’t worry, I’m on it.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 8, 2021)

If they can't do it this week then looking at the weather for the next 7 days tells me they probably won't make that either.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend.  Blaming mother nature.  Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"


And to think that 15 years ago Crotched was a direct, and strong, competitor to Wachusett.....


----------



## Edd (Dec 8, 2021)

Once the snow flies properly  it’ll be kinda ok but, early season in the east, it’s like a parody of running a ski area. Like they don’t-give-a-fuck. It’s insane.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 8, 2021)

I'm convinced they're using weather as an excuse to get these areas as close to xmas-presidents day of a season and fuck appeasing pass holders


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm convinced they're using weather as an excuse to get these areas as close to xmas-presidents day of a season and fuck appeasing pass holders


It reduces their costs.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now.
> 
> I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface




There are plenty of places in eastern PA that have not yet been gobbled up.  Vail actually got two of the most unexciting areas in that part of the state so KSL is already ahead of them there with CamelBlue.  You got Elk, Montage, Shawnee, and Bear Creek as major players, about a half dozen additional small or private operations, and about another half dozen small places that closed in the past decade.

In the DC and Pittsburgh market, Wisp, Timberline, Canaan Valley, Boyce, Bryce, Massanutten, Wintergreen, and Winterplace are all seperate, and Alterra already owns Snowshoe which is undisputedly the best South of PA.

Pittsburgh and Ohio people also go North with the Buffalo market to Peek n Peak, Holiday Valley, Bristol, and a bunch of smaller places.

In the middle of PA you got Blue Knob.   Tussey and Sawmill are small despite being surrounded by big mountains.  The state of PA is actually looking for an operator for Denton Hill (really in the middle of nowhere though).  There is also this place which was planned to be massive but never got developed:  https://www.dcski.com/lostareas/viewlostprofile.php?id=18

Blue Knob could easily be the best ski area south of NY if some investment went in.  There is a whole long discussion on the dc forums about it but basically there has been little to no investment ever since the put the condos in in 1982 (



 Peter Graves captain clarence oveuer from Airplane).  It is the highest and coldest mountain in the state, with the most true vert, lots of land that they already own on which they could expand, and is located right near a bunch of highways.  The issue is that nobody knows about it and they barely have enough money to get enough snow made to open every year.  It also is now the only area in that south central part of the state that is not Vail.


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2021)

snoseek said:


> fuck appeasing pass holders


It's their choice. There're other passes to choose from for the majority of skiers. 

Ultimately, the loudest voice is the cash register. If skiers are happy with a shorten season on a pass discount of 20%, Vail will continue the practice.


----------



## kendo (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly I am not shocked at all, as it seems like their acquisition strategy lately is all about small to medium sized areas in larger population areas, which will ultimately drive the sale of more Epic passes, which sure seems like the business plan,
> 
> Lets just hope at somepoint the reality that running smaller areas in more populated areas requires some different thought processes than larger Western destination resorts.
> 
> Wouldn't shock me at all if Vail goes after a few more small/mid sized areas in the Midwest at some point



Vail investor presentation with the 2021/22 plan:



			https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011
		


Focus is 1000% on increased subscriptions (passes/advanced tix), expansion into more prime MSA's (population centers), increasing lifetime customer value thru data mining, metric tracking & targeted marketing... all while leveraging central management for lower costs.  


I'd bet that Bristol Mtn and Holiday Valley in western NY (Rochester / Buffalo / Cleveland) are both on the Vail radar.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

Trail map has shrunk since 1982.  Lifts are 60s and 80s vintage.  2nd tallest peak of any mountain in the state, and only 10' less vert than Blue Mountain.  Longest runs and lifts in the state.  They own a lot of land on all sides outside the ski area boundary, and the state-owned land surrounding it is also available to be used (they already use the summit).  Somebody with money to update the snowmaking system, finish the trail build out, and put in a new lift could make it very competitive with the surrounding Vail properties.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

PAabe said:


> There are plenty of places in eastern PA that have not yet been gobbled up.  Vail actually got two of the most unexciting areas in that part of the state so KSL is already ahead of them there with CamelBlue.  You got Elk, Montage, Shawnee, and Bear Creek as major players, about a half dozen additional small or private operations, and about another half dozen small places that closed in the past decade.
> 
> In the DC and Pittsburgh market, Wisp, Timberline, Canaan Valley, Boyce, Bryce, Massanutten, Wintergreen, and Winterplace are all seperate, and Alterra already owns Snowshoe which is undisputedly the best South of PA.
> 
> ...


It's in Blue Knob State Park so they don't own the land it also creates some red tape for improvements


----------



## PAabe (Dec 8, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It's in Blue Knob State Park so they don't own the land it also creates some red tape for improvements



I think the resort owns a lot of the land themselves.  There are also a lot of homes in the resort HOA along the ski trails.
The state does own the summit so I guess upgrading the lifts could run into red tape especially if it requires widening or regrading the lift line.

I am told it's currently owned by a group of dentists and doctors out of Pittsburgh who bought it a few years ago, they have been working on gradual improvements to snowmaking but don't have the capital to move very fast, especially with the # of skier visits they get.  They aren't really trying to sell though from what I understand.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 8, 2021)

Interesting on the land I was always under the impression it was all on state land.

It needs better snowmaking for sure.  I can endure slow lifts, but reliable snowmaking is a must.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend.  Blaming mother nature.  Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"


And Pats peak 10-15 miles as the crow flies opened last weekend and has been blowing snow as well this week.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2021)

x10003q said:


> It would have been better for Pirate fans everywhere if Vail bought the Pirates, too.


Red Sox already own the Penguins.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Red Sox already own the Penguins.



Really can't believe John Henry did that.   The Penguins are probably the most hated NHL franchise by Bruins fans other than the Canadians


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2021)

kendo said:


> ... all while leveraging *central management* for lower costs.


The hundred pound gorilla in plain sight?


----------



## machski (Dec 8, 2021)

abc said:


> Anyone got some thoughts on that?


Back then there was what, ASC and maybe Intrawest for big conglomerates, but Intrawest was spread a bit between the US and Canada.  In New England, ASC really got hammered when then LBO held Sunday River, Attitash, Cranmore, Waterville, Sugarbush and added Killington/Pico and Mount Snow.  They may have had 50% of Sugarloaf at that point, don't think they had 100% quite yet.  They got forced to divest Waterville and Cranmore (shockingly the two smallest at the time).


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2021)

PAabe said:


> View attachment 52364
> 
> Trail map has shrunk since 1982.  Lifts are 60s and 80s vintage.  2nd tallest peak of any mountain in the state, and only 10' less vert than Blue Mountain.  Longest runs and lifts in the state.  They own a lot of land on all sides outside the ski area boundary, and the state-owned land surrounding it is also available to be used (they already use the summit).  Somebody with money to update the snowmaking system, finish the trail build out, and put in a new lift could make it very competitive with the surrounding Vail properties.


Not that this should happen before, say, buying 50 - 100 low energy snowguns, but putting a trail from Stembogan bowl's skiers right edge over to just below the lodge complex, then down to meet up with an extension of Runout further down the gulley with a lift back to the lodge and a second trail pod... That's a solid ~500' intermediate pod with potentially two 1200+' beginner trails, easily the tallest ski area in PA with a ton of slopeside development down in the valley, Extrovert, Stembogan Bowl... Just three trails and a lift (and three decades of deferred upgrades) away.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

What's that bowl all about anyway?  Just a wide trail?


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 8, 2021)

It's a teeny (relative to actual bowls) funnel that's maybe 300-400' wide at the top and pretty steep on the skiers left side. There's a bypass/cat track trail that goes around the rim and right edge. It looks like a ton of fun in soft natural conditions but not so much when it's iced over, bumped up, and not groomed.


----------



## gittist (Dec 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> 3 more "Eastern" resorts  coming into the Epic portfolio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





PAabe said:


> How does Vail possibly have cash to still be buying up resorts?
> HV and LM are dinky but 7 Springs is a major major operation, hotel, conference center, spa, condos...
> Vail now owns 6/7 resorts in Southern PA and 8/20 in PA.
> 
> ...


1. In regards to (IRT) Vail buying more ski areas in PA.  OHHHH Fudge!  I shouldn't say what I'm thinking other than they can't run the eastern places they already own!!

2.  IRT to the cash question. Vail is getting the cash from idiots like me that bought EPIC passes :-(


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What's that bowl all about anyway?  Just a wide trail?


It had a fun drop-in when I was there last year.  Almost like jumping off a cornice.  After that just a semi-steep bump run for a short distance.  Trees were a lot more interesting than the "bowl".  Super fun place if you can time it right.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 8, 2021)

Vail is going to destroy skiing.  These small hills will never recover after the years of neglect they will go through. If they even stay open.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2021)

Snow sports: Reborn, rebuilt Attitash Mountain Resort ready for action
					

General manager Greg Gavrilets has led improvements in his 14 months at the New Hampshire ski area



					www.telegram.com
				




“The rumor mills have been swirling, but we have a full crew of snowmakers, and they’re going 24/7 right now,” he said.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Snow sports: Reborn, rebuilt Attitash Mountain Resort ready for action
> 
> 
> General manager Greg Gavrilets has led improvements in his 14 months at the New Hampshire ski area
> ...


I'm about halfway through this and it seems fluffy but am intrigued about the rehabbed shack up top they wanna sell drinks. Slinging drinks up there on the weekend would be a pretty fun little gig and probably rain tip $$$. I'm not jumping back into that meat grinder but it would be fun for sure.


----------



## Harvey (Dec 9, 2021)

kendo said:


> I'd bet that Bristol Mtn and Holiday Valley in western NY (Rochester / Buffalo / Cleveland) are both on the Vail radar.


Ugh.


----------



## Edd (Dec 9, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Snow sports: Reborn, rebuilt Attitash Mountain Resort ready for action
> 
> 
> General manager Greg Gavrilets has led improvements in his 14 months at the New Hampshire ski area
> ...


Efficiencies, cross-training staff. Doesn’t sound like corporate-speak at all.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> Efficiencies, cross-training staff. Doesn’t sound like corporate-speak at all.


mt snow  used ski school people a lot in the lift lines last year I noticed, two years ago they seemed to use new ski patrol hires in the lift lines early season, at least what one liftline/ski patrol guy told me.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> mt snow  used ski school people a lot in the lift lines last year I noticed, two years ago they seemed to use new ski patrol hires in the lift lines early season, at least what one liftline/ski patrol guy told me.



That was simply a staffing thing.  They didn't have the H1B foreign employees who usually did that job. They had more instructors than they had classes that they were allowed to fill under the COVID guidance they were operating under last season. A lateral movement of staff was done to help deal with the employee shortage in certain situations last year.  This season, from what I have heard thusfar, there aren't any current plans for instructors to be out working liftlines.

There were plenty of staff last season, and frankly from time to time for a long time in the past, who under specific circumstances, would be doing jobs that typically they weren't hired to do in a pinch, at ski areas all across the country. The reality is that the vast majority of ski areas never have all of their "ideal" amount of staff to do everything involved with running a resort the way the GM and various department heads would ultimately like. That's just the reality of the ski industry, and many other "seasonal" type industries as well


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> mt snow  used ski school people a lot in the lift lines last year I noticed, two years ago they seemed to use new ski patrol hires in the lift lines early season, at least what one liftline/ski patrol guy told me.


OK until they' run low of patrollers up top, ready to respond to calls coming in


----------



## Mainer (Dec 9, 2021)

What a fluff piece that article was. The fact that they even talked about the terrain park being better is nuts. Not even one jump last year. Wonder how much vail paid for that article.
     But if they can run attitash at least as good as peak could. I’d be happy. That’s not a high bar. But the new bar sounds cool, “if they can find staff” doesn’t sound promising though. Time will tell. Fingers crossed


----------



## machski (Dec 9, 2021)

Mainer said:


> What a fluff piece that article was. The fact that they even talked about the terrain park being better is nuts. Not even one jump last year. Wonder how much vail paid for that article.
> But if they can run attitash at least as good as peak could. I’d be happy. That’s not a high bar. But the new bar sounds cool, “if they can find staff” doesn’t sound promising though. Time will tell. Fingers crossed


What does last year have to do with what the new Attitash manager mentioned about the parks THIS year?


----------



## Mainer (Dec 9, 2021)

He was the gm at attitash last year too. I didn’t see his expertise since the park was the worst its been there in 30 years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Red Sox already own the Penguins.


So they bought the team?  I heard that they were in the hunt.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

2Planker said:


> OK until they' run low of patrollers up top, ready to respond to calls coming in


It was early season, when not a lot was open and before the j1 ( not sure if I have the right phrase) showed up, not sure when the j1 show up.  Mt snow was escorting a bunch around last Sunday so I guess they are beginning to arrive.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So they bought the team?  I heard that they were in the hunt.


Yes, Deal went thru 11/30
https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireS...ch-agreement-buy-pittsburgh-penguins-81446780


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Mainer said:


> He was the gm at attitash last year too. I didn’t see his expertise since the park was the worst its been there in 30 years.


A 33-year old GM means one thing for VR:  he came cheap.  The article certainly plays up the positives of having young upstarts as GMs, but to have them running venerable New England areas such as Stowe or Okemo does not sound good to me.  It says that VR sees New England skiing as the JV Team.  A big mistake in my mind.  Granted they are not as big as, say, Vail or Whistler, but the weather, very competitive daytrip and weekend market, high cost and tough regulatory environment require someone with experience to successfully navigate.


----------



## Edd (Dec 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> A 33-year old GM means one thing for VR:  he came cheap.  The article certainly plays up the positives of having young upstarts as GMs, but to have them running venerable New England areas such as Stowe or Okemo does not sound good to me.  It says that VR sees New England skiing as the JV Team.  A big mistake in my mind.  Granted they are not as big as, say, Vail or Whistler, but the weather, very competitive daytrip and weekend market, high cost and tough regulatory environment require someone with experience to successfully navigate.


My thought exactly, it’s just more cost cutting.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> My thought exactly, it’s just more cost cutting.


You have to start somewhere, guy running Whistler started at either mt Brighton or Wilmington ski area


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Ugh.


I could see them, buying jiminy peak for the Albany market, fits in between Hunter and mt snow, it’s a western Massachusetts resort, then Bristol for the Rochester/Syracuse markets then holiday valley for the markets holiday valley is in. Time will tell


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 9, 2021)

Hopefully the Vail implosion occurs before they get Holiday Valley/Bristol. Those are both super well run resorts with excellent snowmaking.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 9, 2021)

Not sure if mentioned yet but Vail paid 125 million for the 3 PA areas:

https://www.post-gazette.com/busine...Valley-Laurel-ski-resort/stories/202112080145


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Hopefully the Vail implosion occurs before they get Holiday Valley/Bristol. Those are both super well run resorts with excellent snowmaking.


Vail stock down 6 bucks, I guess Wall Street does not like it, the beginning of the end?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 9, 2021)

For some reason..I think this is heading in the wrong direction...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> My thought exactly, it’s just more cost cutting.


The only thing that might sway me into thinking that this is an advantage is the comment in the article about the role of analytics.  Younger business folks are taught that.  Older dogs not so much.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> You have to start somewhere, guy running Whistler started at either mt Brighton or Wilmington ski area


True, but for many folks in here they want a good experience skiing and riding at their NE ski area and not to train a new GM or tolerate the missteps.  As I said, the NE ski industry is complicated.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> My thought exactly, it’s just more cost cutting.


At least he has worn ski boots and came up thru the ranks of ON SNOW positions.
Rather than another Cafeteria Manager becoming the GM


----------



## FBGM (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> You have to start somewhere, guy running Whistler started at either mt Brighton or Wilmington ski area


If Geoff still is over a whistler he actually started at PC as the CFO when Powder had it. Then when Vail came he moved to oversee all the Midwest ones then went to Whistler. He’s a good dude.


----------



## kendo (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I could see them, buying jiminy peak for the Albany market, fits in between Hunter and mt snow, it’s a western Massachusetts resort, then Bristol for the Rochester/Syracuse markets then holiday valley for the markets holiday valley is in. Time will tell


Bristol checks all the boxes for Vail acquisition.  Longtime owner/GM has been there since 1975 and purchased it outright in 1984 - likely ready to consider offers.  He also hired the current Vail Executive VP Mountain Ops / COO Rockies Region to his first ski industry job at Bristol Mtn.   Bristol owns the Roseland waterpark complex for summer biz to complement their on-mountain activities.  Continual investment in lifts & snowmaking has kept them in better shape (needing less capital infusion upon acquisition) than other western NY areas.  Typical Bristol skier has always been willing to pay higher lift and pass prices (season pass $935) for 1200' vert and HSQ's ... versus the local alternative Swain.  Gets a lot of locals from Roch's eastern suburbs and FLX region with higher income demographics...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2021)

kendo said:


> Bristol checks all the boxes for Vail acquisition.  Longtime owner/GM has been there since 1975 and purchased it outright in 1984 - likely ready to consider offers.  He also hired the current Vail Executive VP Mountain Ops / COO Rockies Region to his first ski industry job at Bristol Mtn.   Bristol owns the Roseland waterpark complex for summer biz to complement their on-mountain activities.  Continual investment in lifts & snowmaking has kept them in better shape (needing less capital infusion upon acquisition) than other western NY areas.  Typical Bristol skier has always been willing to pay higher lift and pass prices (season pass $935) for 1200' vert and HSQ's ... versus the local alternative Swain.  Gets a lot of locals from Roch's eastern suburbs and FLX region with higher income demographics...


Vail does not care much for summer activities in the northeast…


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 9, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Vail does not care much for summer activities in the northeast…


As was evidence by Attitash being shut down all summer when just a few years ago there used to be 100s of families on any given day.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

FBGM said:


> If Geoff still is over a whistler he actually started at PC as the CFO when Powder had it. Then when Vail came he moved to oversee all the Midwest ones then went to Whistler. He’s a good dude.


He was on an epic podcast, did not actually run a resort till vail moved him to the Midwest, then to keystone then eventually up to whistler


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> As was evidence by Attitash being shut down all summer when just a few years ago there used to be 100s of families on any given day.


The Cat too.  Zip Line, Weddings (mine) all used to happen.  Not this year. Everything was locked up tight May-November


----------



## JimG. (Dec 9, 2021)

Where is everybody going to ski when these small places Vail bought out go belly up?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Where is everybody going to ski when these small places Vail bought out go belly up?


Pretty sure there wasn't much of an issue with the ASC resorts and liquidation and continued operations after their financial implosion.  If the value is there, there's likely an investor who will find it. Heck, even in some cases if the value isn't there, there will probably be an investor who will find it


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

It's been said before.

Everyone reading this thread should definitely read Hal Clifford's Downhill Slide from 2003.

Twenty years later and it's so true all over again.... Very Sad indeed.
https://www.amazon.com/Downhill-Slide-Corporate-Industry-Environment/dp/1578051029


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Dec 9, 2021)

Wonder what happens with places like Nashoba and Bradford? Huge ski schools, school groups, junior programs...quintessential "feeder hills". Both Fletcher and Sawyer are getting up there in age. Are they attractive to the likes of Vail or Alterra?


----------



## x10003q (Dec 9, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The Cat too.  Zip Line, Weddings (mine) all used to happen.  Not this year. Everything was locked up tight May-November


It wasn't locked up that tight. I was able to buy a t-shirt on July 31 this past summer and the triple was running. The snack bar was open. There were about 20-30 cars in the lot .


----------



## machski (Dec 9, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The Cat too.  Zip Line, Weddings (mine) all used to happen.  Not this year. Everything was locked up tight May-November


I thought the Cat this summer was due to the overhaul of the HSQ and thus lacking the summit lift.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

x10003q said:


> It wasn't locked up that tight. I was able to buy a t-shirt on July 31 this past summer and the triple was running. The snack bar was open. There were about 20-30 cars in the lot .



Next door neighbor has been a Summer employee for 6 years.
He was told on May 1,  "Vail says No more summer activities" and let go that day.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Dec 9, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Wonder what happens with places like Nashoba and Bradford? Huge ski schools, school groups, junior programs...quintessential "feeder hills". Both Fletcher and Sawyer are getting up there in age. Are they attractive to the likes of Vail or Alterra?


Ive been wondering same thing about Ski Sundown in New Hartford CT. It’s gotta be on size par with a number of these PA hills, is largely viewed as well run and is supposedly profitable for the local family that has owned it for sometime now. 

It’s got a hardcore local following, strong patrol culture, decent snowmaking, longish season, big ski school, healthy race program, is used by a number of private schools, is huge with the Tweener set due to full night skiing and is smack in the middle of a strong discretionary spending metro population. Plus their passes are by no means cheap. I gotta think Brimfield has made numerous inquires if their still making moves like noted above.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Wonder what happens with places like Nashoba and Bradford? Huge ski schools, school groups, junior programs...quintessential "feeder hills". Both Fletcher and Sawyer are getting up there in age. Are they attractive to the likes of Vail or Alterra?


Same with Pats Peak.  Family-owned.  I think they are on the third generation now.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 9, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Wonder what happens with places like Nashoba and Bradford? Huge ski schools, school groups, junior programs...quintessential "feeder hills". Both Fletcher and Sawyer are getting up there in age. Are they attractive to the likes of Vail or Alterra?


Al Fletcher died this year. He was my HS race coach circa 1978


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Same with Pats Peak.  Family-owned.  I think they are on the third generation now.


I don’t see vail buying pats peak, could boyne? Would the polar beverage crowd be interested?


----------



## Edd (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I don’t see vail buying pats peak, could boyne? Would the polar beverage crowd be interested?


Why not? Where do you see the limits of their buying ski areas? It’s like a zombie corporation eating everything they see.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> Why not? Where do you see the limits of their buying ski areas? It’s like a zombie corporation eating everything they see.


I think they are done in nh, For the most part, how many resorts can you own in a single state before the doj gets involved?  I could see their interest in Breton woods or Waterville valley, but if they buy one of them do they have to sell one they already own?


----------



## snoseek (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think they are done in nh, For the most part, how many resorts can you own in a single state before the doj gets involved?  I could see their interest in Breton woods or Waterville valley, but if they buy one of them do they have to sell one they already own?


Waterville valley for wildcat? Sounds good to me.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 9, 2021)

Edd said:


> Why not? Where do you see the limits of their buying ski areas? It’s like a zombie corporation eating everything they see.


lol "zombie" is a good way to describe Vail's NH operations.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 9, 2021)

On a separate note according to the report attitash opens tomorrow on what appears to be one run from mid mtn and the learning center. Looking around at the non vail competition that's a pretty slow start. I suppose you have to hire people and make snow and stuff.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Waterville valley for wildcat? Sounds good to me.


To be honest, I have no idea how many more that can do in the nh market, kinda using asc model as guideline but maybe the doj has changed their views on this as well, who knows, but I have no idea what the vail business plan is for their next purchase, I live in wmass, so the eastern mass, nh, maine market i am not really familiar with, especially Maine, never skied Maine.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Dec 9, 2021)

Sunapee surfaces today were considerably better than Okemo's yesterday. They were blowing tons of snow with high air volume guns. Whales all over. I suppose they will wait to groom those out in view of the coming warm weather and worse. East Coast areas are in a tough spot with Christmas week on the horizon. My house is 45 minutes either way and Sunapee keeps winning despite the limited terrain.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> To be honest, I have no idea how many more that vail can do in the nh market, kinda using asc model as guideline but maybe the doj has changed their views on this as well, who knows, but I have no idea what the vail business plan is for their next purchase, I live in wmass, so the eastern mass, nh, maine market i am not really familiar with, especially Maine, never skied Maine.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Sunapee surfaces today were considerably better than Okemo's yesterday. They were blowing tons of snow with high air volume guns. Whales all over. I suppose they will wait to groom those out in view of the coming warm weather and worse. East Coast areas are in a tough spot with Christmas week on the horizon. My house is 45 minutes either way and Sunapee keeps winning despite the limited terrain.


This weekend looks like a killer, last time I checked


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 9, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Same with Pats Peak.  Family-owned.  I think they are on the third generation now.


Just making it to generation 2 at pats.


----------



## RH29 (Dec 9, 2021)

My personal take on the "Who will Vail eat next?" rumor mill swirling in this thread:

Sundown: I hope this isn't gonna happen. I heavily doubt that the current family ownership is interested in selling, and surely they've seen how Vail decimated similar areas.
Pats: Same as Sundown, plus joining the Indy Pass is a pretty big middle finger to Vail.
Jiminy: Not happening. They're owned by Fairbank Group, which also owns Cranmore and Bromley. All three of those areas are going strong with major real estate investment to boot. No reason for Fairbank to sell, plus I don't think Vail will get away with buying Cranmore when they already have the two other North Conway ski areas. Vail would pretty much control the town of North Conway if they had Cranmore too. This would be a blatant monopoly, and they can't worm their way out of that.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Dec 9, 2021)

snoseek said:


> On a separate note according to the report attitash opens tomorrow on what appears to be one run from mid mtn and the learning center. Looking around at the non vail competition that's a pretty slow start. I suppose you have to hire people and make snow and stuff.


According to attitash.com "Opening Day is tomorrow, Friday, December 10th! Our snowmaking team has been making great progress and we anticipate adding more terrain in the coming days. For Friday, we are planning on spinning the Flying Yankee and the Learning Center Triple, with a terrain park located on lower Spillway."

I'm going to say they have three runs -
Learning Center
Far Out (it has to be open to get off the Yankee)
and Spillway


----------



## RH29 (Dec 9, 2021)

Bonus edition: Who do I think Vail is most likely to buy?

For Resort-Based: Holiday Valley or Bretton Woods
For Feeder Hill: Powder Ridge


----------



## thebigo (Dec 9, 2021)

I doubt they target any additional properties in northern new england, they dont even appear to want all the ones they already have. Eastern canada is an obvious hole in their portfolio; if there are any small busy independent feeders near toronto, montreal or quebec city - look out.

Please do not even mention pats in the sentence as vail, pats is everything that is still right about skiing.


----------



## kendo (Dec 9, 2021)

Yep.  Doubt they're looking for more in NH.  

They're looking for incremental growth by filling in the holes around untapped major MSA's (population centers).




This week it's Pittsburgh.   

Next I'd say is western NY with 2.5M people within the Buf / Roch / Syr region. 

Also Montreal stands out as a potential target.

(... we need a major storm to get us off this topic!)


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think they are done in nh, For the most part, how many resorts can you own in a single state before the doj gets involved?  I could see their interest in Breton woods or Waterville valley, but if they buy one of them do they have to sell one they already own?


Why would anti trust stop them? It’s clear it’s not slowing down the likes of Amazon? It’s a free for all right now.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Bonus edition: Who do I think Vail is most likely to buy?
> 
> For Resort-Based: Holiday Valley or Bretton Woods
> For Feeder Hill: Powder Ridge


Where’s powder ridge?


eatskisleep said:


> Why would anti trust stop them? It’s clear it’s not slowing down the likes of Amazon? It’s a free for all right now.


antitrust made them sell abasin and asc had to sell two places in nh, just stating what happened in the past


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2021)

I am kind of surprised that nobody has thrown Mountain Creek and/or Big Snow into this fantasy game of mega pass CEO buying spree yet


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Where’s powder ridge?


Powder Ridge is in CT not too far off of I-91 about half way between Hartford and New Haven


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 9, 2021)

NC is a big hole.  Sugar or Beech would not surprise me.  Lots of potential customers with $$$$ from Charlotte/Raleigh and everything in between.  Wintergreen VA also seems to be their style.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 9, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Bonus edition: Who do I think Vail is most likely to buy?
> 
> For Resort-Based: Holiday Valley or Bretton Woods
> For Feeder Hill: Powder Ridge


I feel like omni doesn't want to sell bretton woods at any point. Why would they?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 9, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I feel like omni doesn't want to sell bretton woods at any point. Why would they?


That entire Mount Washington Resort, from Bretton Woods to the Resort Hotel to the Golf Course and surrounding network of year round, mutli-sport trails, is a solid year round operation that Omni has spent a bunch of $$ upgrading since they bought it


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> To be honest, I have no idea how many more that can do in the nh market, kinda using asc model as guideline but maybe the doj has changed their views on this as well, who knows, but I have no idea what the vail business plan is for their next purchase, I live in wmass, so the eastern mass, nh, maine market i am not really familiar with, especially Maine, never skied Maine.


Anti-Trust at the DOJ in the mid 1990's versus now could not be more different.  Biden is now more anti-merger and anti-trust, but with Bush they pretty much stopped doing anti-trust work.

If I recall exactly with ASC, the argument was that the Northern New Hampshire market was under ASC's control and needed to be trust-busted. 

It is also interesting to note that Boyne has a firm grip on ME's ski market.  I wonder if that could have happened in the 1990's.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Please do not even mention pats in the sentence as vail, pats is everything that is still right about skiing.


I completely agree.  Glad to hear that not much has changed since my brief two seasons there.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Powder Ridge is in CT not too far off of I-91 about half way between Hartford and New Haven


Ok thanks


----------



## ss20 (Dec 9, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I am kind of surprised that nobody has thrown Mountain Creek and/or Big Snow into this fantasy game of mega pass CEO buying spree yet



My first thoughts as well.

If you look at a map Thunder Ridge would be very logical in the next takeover.  Lot's of families with money who go west every year already.  Train from Grand Central to Patterson.  I never thought it would happen because the infrastructure was falling apart but that is quickly being turned around.  I will pray it never happens though.  I didn't see it as a possibility when I started there but I can see it now.


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 9, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> NC is a big hole.  Sugar or Beech would not surprise me.  Lots of potential customers with $$$$ from Charlotte/Raleigh and everything in between.  Wintergreen VA also seems to be their style.


They don't want Wolf, Sugar doesn't own their land, Beech has an active second/third generation family running it, Cataloochee is pretty far from NC centers more in the Gatlinburg area. Not sure about App Ski Mtn but they rely on nights and parks and group deals - the antithesis of Vail.


----------



## slatham (Dec 10, 2021)

FYI Epic season pass sales up 47% in units this year. That’s an additional 700,000 passes from last season!  This could be ugly. 

Full disclosure, I have a slew of passes, none Epic........


----------



## NYDB (Dec 10, 2021)

OMG.  The fights at carinthia are going to be epic!  can't wait for the grams.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 10, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> OMG.  The fights at carinthia are going to be epic!  can't wait for the grams.


The challenge of topping the couple that were posted up on Unoffical Networks last season is real!  Those were a couple of classics for sure!


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> Beech has an active second/third generation family running it



Ahhh, there's your winner, surely some of them would like to cash out.  Vail will divide and conquer them (hopefully not).

Side note, I'm pretty sure Wolf is the strangest place I've ever skied.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The challenge of topping the couple that were posted up on Unoffical Networks last season is real!  Those were a couple of classics for sure!


Yeah, tough to beat this...









						VIDEO: Woman Assaults 13 Year Old Boy @ Mt. Snow, Vermont
					

Wish I had more background information on this assault on the slopes of Mount Snow in Vermont but accordingly to second hand reporting on Reddit, the woman had allegedly gotten out of her skis to f…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 10, 2021)

ss20 said:


> My first thoughts as well.
> 
> If you look at a map Thunder Ridge would be very logical in the next takeover.  Lot's of families with money who go west every year already.  Train from Grand Central to Patterson.  I never thought it would happen because the infrastructure was falling apart but that is quickly being turned around.  I will pray it never happens though.  I didn't see it as a possibility when I started there but I can see it now.


Doesn’t vail


jaytrem said:


> Yeah, tough to beat this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


makes me want to give up skiing, yikes


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2021)

I have to wonder why Vail is still on a spending spree when they clearly have a lot of issues with what they have already.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have to wonder why Vail is still on a spending spree when they clearly have a lot of issues with what they have already.


Debt is cheap now.  Can't guarantee that will be the case in 3-5 years


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 10, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Debt is cheap now.  Can't guarantee that will be the case in 3-5 years


Yep low interest rates and infinite printing of money indeed does have consequences.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have to wonder why Vail is still on a spending spree when they clearly have a lot of issues with what they have already.


And 2 million Epic passes sold this year, before anyone even odrers a burger and fries and signs little Sally or Johnny up for rentals and lessons, certainly helps pad the war chest and makes the balance sheet look solid cash flow wise.

Plus with the extra 500k plus Epic passes they sold this year apparently, gotta find some more acres and lifts to put many possibly 1st time ever passholders, on to keep them satisfied with their purchase and wanting to re-up next season

This is going to get interesting over the next few years to see how they handle so many factors in play


----------



## Edd (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have to wonder why Vail is still on a spending spree when they clearly have a lot of issues with what they have already.


Well, we think Vail has issues but does Vail think that?


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

7S does not have extra capacity to absorb Epic pass peeps.  That place is already mobbed, like worse than the poconos.

LM has 1 lift and HV is largely a beginner's hill.

The Snow Time areas also did not have the capacity to absorb the epic crowds, and will be even more crowded this year.

If I were a Yinzer - Peek n Peak, Wisp, or Blue Knob are an extra hour but to avoid the epic crowds maybe worth it more often?  Blue Knob has really cheap passes and is on Indy too.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2021)

Just read about the pass sale increase. When asked about how they will handle the increased traffic " we will load chairs more efficiently" ...really ?
I just don't think they give a damn about how they will operate..its all numbers to them. Its sad but this is the way a mega corp is going to operate. Its no different than  ( on a way smaller scale) if I went out and continuously bought condos to rent but ran them like shit, let them fall apart and really didn't care about who worked for me maintaining them...yet keep on buying them. The way they are handling NH is deplorable..no care at all. And yet..here I am an Epic pass holder because..its cheap.
And yes..debt is cheap as hell...I would just hate to see some of these areas really take a dive because of this. 
We shall see.


----------



## Harvey (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I am an Epic pass holder because..its cheap.


Is it fun?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Just read about the pass sale increase. When asked about how they will handle the increased traffic " we will load chairs more efficiently" ...really ?


Yea...that comment really makes no sense to me. Unless Vail had numerous chairs going up empty or less than full 2 years ago (last year doesn't count obviously), there's really no way to "load chairs more efficiently". Unless they've also come up with some magical way to prevent people from mis-loading or improperly unloading thus reducing stops. But even if the chair never stopped, that's still not going to be enough gained efficiency to make up for the volume increase in sales.


----------



## Harvey (Dec 10, 2021)

Maybe they will have someone sit on your lap.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Is it fun?


yup


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Just read about the pass sale increase. When asked about how they will handle the increased traffic " we will load chairs more efficiently" ...really ?



Not seeing that at the MS bubble yet, no effort to group people up at all.  One guy at the Grand Summit Express was pretty funny though.  Was actually pushing snowboarders towards the lift so that he could keep his no lift line thing going.  Everyone was having a good laugh.  Gotta clone that guy!


----------



## drjeff (Dec 10, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Not seeing that at the MS bubble yet, no effort to group people up at all.  One guy at the Grand Summit Express was pretty funny though.  Was actually pushing snowboarders towards the lift so that he could keep his no lift line thing going.  Everyone was having a good laugh.  Gotta clone that guy!



Honestly I haven't seen/been in a line yet this season at Mount Snow, that I would classify as "big" by Mount Snow standards. Waited maybe 10 minutes a couple of times for the Bluebird, but often thus far this season they haven't even had all of the pre-set queue lanes open becuse the lines just haven't been "Mount Snow big" yet.....

And I suppose you could truthfully say that compared to last year, if they loaded say 4 on a 6 or 3 on a 4 that it would be a "more efficient" way to load a lift which they learned from last year!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 10, 2021)

Lets face it..its all corporate BS talk...they aren't going to load anything more efficiently except the BS they spew when questions..that have no answers..are answered.
Its not just the " chair loading" issue..its going to be the crowding issue on the slopes ( which we are all a part of) and the parking and restaurants. They have made a product that once cost X..now costs Y...
My only saving grace is now I can ski week days. Weekends are going to be a shit show..and thats that.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2021)

To be fair, the increase in pass sale figure is compared to last year. So it makes sense to compare uplift capacity to last year. In that case, yes, once the chairs are back to fully filled, it might not be so bad.

For me though, I'm less concerned about the wait in lift line. More concerned about crowded slopes.


Kingslug20 said:


> And yet..here I am an Epic pass holder because..its cheap.


I've also got an Epic pass this year because it's cheap. But that's a combination of the carryover credit from the pandemic early closure on top of the 20% discount. If its just the 20% discount, I may or may not take the bait. 

If they don't offer the 20% next year? I'm jumping ship 100%


----------



## ctdubl07 (Dec 10, 2021)

drjeff said:


> And 2 million Epic passes sold this year, before anyone even odrers a burger and fries and signs little Sally or Johnny up for rentals and lessons, certainly helps pad the war chest and makes the balance sheet look solid cash flow wise.
> 
> Plus with the extra 500k plus Epic passes they sold this year apparently, gotta find some more acres and lifts to put many possibly 1st time ever passholders, on to keep them satisfied with their purchase and wanting to re-up next season
> 
> This is going to get interesting over the next few years to see how they handle so many factors in play


Doc, all 4 of our kids are in season long programs (8 yrs now) and eat sh*t burgers/nuggets each day plus and our 6 Epic passes. Im the one paying for the 2 new lifts next year....


----------



## cdskier (Dec 10, 2021)

abc said:


> To be fair, the increase in pass sale figure is compared to last year. So it makes sense to compare uplift capacity to last year. In that case, yes, once the chairs are back to fully filled, it might not be so bad.


It depends which numbers you're talking about. There's a 47% increase in sales compared to last year, but it is a 76% increase in sales compared to 2 years ago (when they were operating at full/normal lift capacity). That's substantial...



> Moving on to season pass results, Lynch said, "Pass product sales for the North American ski season increased approximately 47% in units and approximately 21% in sales dollars through December 5, 2021 as compared to the period in the prior year through December 6, 2020, without deducting for the value of any redeemed credits provided to certain North American pass holders in the prior period. Pass product sales through December 5, 2021 for the 2021/2022 North American ski season increased approximately 76% in units and approximately 45% in sales dollars as compared to sales for the 2019/2020 North American ski season through December 8, 2019, with pass product sales adjusted to include Peak Resorts pass sales in both periods.


----------



## TyWebb (Dec 10, 2021)

First year with any pass (epic) for my son and I.  3 trips for Vt booked already plus researching out west for late Feb early March.  Jack Frost and Big Boulder will be my weekend day trips since 90 mins away and maybe try Hunter (3 hours) if during week and they get a dump

Was leaning IKON but no day trip Pocono option - went with EPIC.  If it ends up being a crappy experience ie ski lines, etc  this season - I’ll spend more next year and do IKON and maybe even add INDY for us.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

Vail is going to replace 2 additional sets of double-double borvig/partek lifts at Jack Frost and Big Boulder next year, with 1 quad for each pair.  So no increase (perhaps even decrease) in capacity but I guess they'll be more reliable and new & shiny


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

TyWebb said:


> First year with any pass (epic) for my son and I.  3 trips for Vt booked already plus researching out west for late Feb early March.  Jack Frost and Big Boulder will be my weekend day trips since 90 mins away and maybe try Hunter (3 hours) if during week and they get a dump
> 
> Was leaning IKON but no day trip Pocono option - went with EPIC.  If it ends up being a crappy experience ie ski lines, etc  this season - I’ll spend more next year and do IKON and maybe even add INDY for us.


I would not be surprised if Camelback and Blue end up on Ikon next year, being KSL owned now, but I also would not be surprised if they never do, considering that they are already at/over capacity and sell out of expensive season passes.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2021)

abc said:


> To be fair, the increase in pass sale figure is compared to last year. So it makes sense to compare uplift capacity to last year. In that case, yes, once the chairs are back to fully filled, it might not be so bad.
> 
> For me though, I'm less concerned about the wait in lift line. More concerned about crowded slopes.
> 
> ...


20% off this year’s price or just what this year’s price is?


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail is going to replace 2 additional sets of double-double borvig/partek lifts at Jack Frost and Big Boulder next year, with 1 quad for each pair.  So no increase (perhaps even decrease) in capacity but I guess they'll be more reliable and new & shiny


Hopefully holding out for a high speed for the other JF double double.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> 20% off this year’s price or just what this year’s price is?


The latter


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> It depends which numbers you're talking about. There's a 47% increase in sales compared to last year, but it is a 76% increase in sales compared to 2 years ago (when they were operating at full/normal lift capacity). That's substantial...


I'm not as pessimistic just yet. 

Granted, I maybe totally wrong. But before Vail took over, there were a lot of day pass skiers. They all converted to Epic passes. (ok, some do, some don't. But I'm guessing a lot of them did). So the total skier visit may not be quite as dramatic of an increase as the pass sale would sugges.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2021)

I'm not as pessimistic just yet.


abc said:


> Granted, I maybe totally wrong. But before Vail took over, there were a lot of day pass skiers. They all converted to Epic passes. (ok, some do, some don't. But I'm guessing a lot of them did). So the total skier visit may not be quite as dramatic of an increase as the pass sale would sugges.


Well i think most day pass people skied multiple ski areas but now that they have an epic pass they will ski vail ski areas.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I'm not as pessimistic just yet.
> 
> Well i think most day pass people skied multiple ski areas but now that they have an epic pass they will ski vail ski areas.


You're probably right. But Vail did buy a whole bunch of resorts. So some of they may be just the same day skiers who were already skiing different resorts under Vail? Or the kind of day skiers who only ski 5-10 days anyway? 

I'm sure there's some increase. Otherwise Vail wouldn't buy those mountains. I'm just saying it may not be as dramatic as the percentage increase on paper.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Hopefully holding out for a high speed for the other JF double double.


JF could really use a detach if Vail is trying to compete with Shawnee, Camelback, and Blue.  Even Montage said that long term they want to put a detach or carpet loader fixed quad "express" on the long haul alignment if they can cut a blue run down to it.  But then again, JF isn't really competing directly against the other poconos places anymore now that there is the whole epic pass thing.


----------



## kendo (Dec 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> It depends which numbers you're talking about. There's a 47% increase in sales compared to last year, but it is a 76% increase in sales compared to 2 years ago (when they were operating at full/normal lift capacity). That's substantial...



* Epic Day Pass sales (advanced purchase, good for 1-7 days) launched 3/2019 for the 19/20 CV shortened FY, are included in the reported 47% *pass* increase.  

So not sure the impact to daily crowds versus prior years with only the Epic Pass (local or full) & 'Advanced Lift Ticket' sales.  For sure weekends and holidays will be maxed.   

Epic pass sales total % of overall lift ticket revenue has actually been flat for the past couple of years prior to CV.  Revenue split:  47% pass products and 53% lift ticket products.  



They're now converting and reporting more Advanced Lift Ticket buyers into advanced Epic Day Pass buyers (lower cost product, let's the buyer choose their resort and accessibility... unrestricted or restricted, non-refundable, etc).  Captures the revenue earlier in the year and Vail can direct marketing for rebuy in following year with the hopes of migrating a % of the Day Pass buyers up to Local or Full Epic pass products. 


The real number to report & compare year over year is number of days skied, by product, by resort.    

For FY 18/19, the reported Guest Mix of days skied across all VR was *65%* 1-3 days; *21%* 4-7 days and *14%* >7 days.   It doesn't specify if this was Day Pass buyers or all skiers...



			https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011


----------



## TyWebb (Dec 10, 2021)

PAabe said:


> PAabe said:
> 
> 
> > I would not be surprised if Camelback and Blue end up on Ikon next year, being KSL owned now, but I also would not be surprised if they never do, considering that they are already at/over capacity and sell out of expensive season passes.



I hope so as I would've spent more $$$ this year if IKON had a mountain in the Poconos - have to think one of those two, or Montage maybe even take a shot at Elk. 

IKON really needs a presence in the Pa market to compete with what Vail is currently doing here


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 10, 2021)

I could imagine a sweetheart deal where an Icon pass as a cheaper add-on is available with your CamelBlue pass, but Icon passes don't include Blue and CB as full partners. Everyone saying that they're already at capacity is correct.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 10, 2021)

TyWebb said:


> I hope so as I would've spent more $$$ this year if IKON had a mountain in the Poconos - have to think one of those two, or Montage maybe even take a shot at Elk.
> 
> IKON really needs a presence in the Pa market to compete with what Vail is currently doing here


Not familiar with with mid Atlantic skiing, but I have heard, don’t know if it is true, but I have heard camelback is maxed out for skiers and the ikon pass would just overwhelm the place, that’s why it’s not on the ikon, not sure if  this is true or not.


----------



## abc (Dec 10, 2021)

kendo said:


> * Epic Day Pass sales (advanced purchase, good for 1-7 days) launched 3/2019 for the 19/20 CV shortened FY, are included in the reported 47% *pass* increase.


Good point

Vail changed what they count as "pass purchase" to include essentially those who purchase day ticket in advance.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Dec 10, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Sunapee surfaces today were considerably better than Okemo's yesterday. They were blowing tons of snow with high air volume guns. Whales all over. I suppose they will wait to groom those out in view of the coming warm weather and worse. East Coast areas are in a tough spot with Christmas week on the horizon. My house is 45 minutes either way and Sunapee keeps winning despite the limited terrain.


Well, shows what I know about surface management. They groomed out Upper Blastoff. That skied very nicely. They groomed out whatever (too many dumb trail name sections) to the north. That had cookies. I ski 95% at Magic Mountain where they would preserve the whales, let them drain and groom then out when it gets cold. I see some very hard surfaces ahead.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 10, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Well, shows what I know about surface management. They groomed out Upper Blastoff. That skied very nicely. They groomed out whatever (too many dumb trail name sections) to the north. That had cookies. I ski 95% at Magic Mountain where they would preserve the whales, let them drain and groom then out when it gets cold. I see some very hard surfaces ahead.


Sugarbush follows that strategy that Magic uses as well. In fact they just made a post a little while ago pointing this out




__ https://www.facebook.com/Sugarbush.VT/posts/10160049822373384


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 10, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Not familiar with with mid Atlantic skiing, but I have heard, don’t know if it is true, but I have heard camelback is maxed out for skiers and the ikon pass would just overwhelm the place, that’s why it’s not on the ikon, not sure if  this is true or not.


Camelback (and as of this year, Blue Mtn) are owned by KSL, not Alterra. While Alterra is backed in part by KSL money, they aren't the same company and this far haven't indicated that they plan to share passes beyond Blue+Camelback combo passes potentially next year.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

I honestly can't see any of the other PA areas flipping hands any time soon... at this point all the non KSL non Vail places have something "weird" about them that wouldn't really fit the Ikon/Epic mold.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Dec 10, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I honestly can't see any of the other PA areas flipping hands any time soon... at this point all the non KSL non Vail places have something "weird" about them that wouldn't really fit the Ikon/Epic mold.


Weird like Montage, owned by the county and upside down? I hear they changed the profile of the White Lightening headwall. Too bad. The signs at the entrance were a hoot. Beyond here there be dragons .... Also, the slowest chairlifts imaginable.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 10, 2021)

Saw the summit triple at Attitash is open. So maybe the new GM is better than whoever is running the show at The Cat?


----------



## PAabe (Dec 10, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Weird like Montage, owned by the county and upside down? I hear they changed the profile of the White Lightening headwall. Too bad. The signs at the entrance were a hoot. Beyond here there be dragons .... Also, the slowest chairlifts imaginable.


Exactly.  I was thinking about montage as the most likely megapass candidate, but yeah, too many weirdnesses.  In addition to what you said, neither the lifts or trail layout has a lot of capacity, with choke points in the middle, and their snowmaking is wacky because they use water from the municipal supply lake.  Intermediate terrain is not great and Scranton isn't exactly known as a big skiing city.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 10, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> Camelback (and as of this year, Blue Mtn) are owned by KSL, not Alterra. While Alterra is backed in part by KSL money, they aren't the same company and this far haven't indicated that they plan to share passes beyond Blue+Camelback combo passes potentially next year.


I believe ksl is one of the owners of alterra


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 11, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Saw the summit triple at Attitash is open. So maybe the new GM is better than whoever is running the show at The Cat?


It's like a competition to be the world's tallest midget. 

AFAIK wildcat can't pump water above the tomcat chair yet...


----------



## Edd (Dec 11, 2021)

Newest post from Wildcat on Instagram is 2 days old. Here’s today’s snow report. Not much info to chew on. These non-snow reports are baffling because their surrounding competition is quite happy to tell you what’s happening. It takes so little to provide a couple of paragraphs.


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 11, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I believe ksl is one of the owners of alterra


Yes, KSL is one of the owners of Alterra. KSL also directly owns Blue and Camelback.


----------



## kendo (Dec 12, 2021)

Vail may suck, but the storm forecast for their Tahoe resorts doesn't suck.  4 - 8' at elevation thru Tues - with additional accumulations daily thereafter. 



Information about Winter Storm Warning #GoogleCrisisResponse https://g.co/kgs/KkGbrN


Hoping the Jetstream drops a bit and sends the energy our way.


----------



## abc (Dec 13, 2021)

My bike got a lot of use. It’s been so warm. 

Yawn...


----------



## Geoff (Dec 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Honestly I haven't seen/been in a line yet this season at Mount Snow, that I would classify as "big" by Mount Snow standards. Waited maybe 10 minutes a couple of times for the Bluebird, but often thus far this season they haven't even had all of the pre-set queue lanes open becuse the lines just haven't been "Mount Snow big" yet.....
> 
> And I suppose you could truthfully say that compared to last year, if they loaded say 4 on a 6 or 3 on a 4 that it would be a "more efficient" way to load a lift which they learned from last year!


So DrJeff:   Would Mount Snow be worth bothering with tomorrow?   (Tuesday)   Where do I park assuming I get there early to minimize steps from the car to a lift?   My guess would be Carinthia.   I'm expecting groomed out death crunch so I don't care about anything with much pitch to it.   I was at Sunapee on Friday and that will be awful after 45 minutes since the few ways open all funnel down to one trail.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 13, 2021)

Geoff said:


> So DrJeff:   Would Mount Snow be worth bothering with tomorrow?   (Tuesday)   Where do I park assuming I get there early to minimize steps from the car to a lift?   My guess would be Carinthia.   I'm expecting groomed out death crunch so I don't care about anything with much pitch to it.   I was at Sunapee on Friday and that will be awful after 45 minutes since the few ways open all funnel down to one trail.


Carinthia base lodge can literally have you parking right at the snow, maybe 100 feet from the lift, and that lot, up until next Saturday, is still free parking.

Honestly they made a TON of snow, and it faired better than I was expecting through this weekend. I skied Mount Snow yesterday morning and then at Wachusett last night with my kids high-school ski team, and the difference in both quantity and quality of the snow was night and day with Mount Snow having much better base depths and trail width than Wachusett did, even though both mountains are known to be aggressive with their snowmaking. Mount Snow has trails that are consistently 2/3rds to 3/4ths width covered with a few feet of snow that mountain ops did a good job grooming out post freeze up (even yesterday morning) whereas Wachusett was generally 1 to maybe 3 groomer width wide trails down to what is now a bulletproof base of generally what looked to be a foot or less.

If you're looking to get some early season laps on the legs on some groomers tomorrow your Epic Pass at Mount Snow will likely get you what your looking for with some decent snow conditions all things considered right now


----------



## Geoff (Dec 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Carinthia base lodge can literally have you parking right at the snow, maybe 100 feet from the lift, and that lot, up until next Saturday, is still free parking.
> 
> Honestly they made a TON of snow, and it faired better than I was expecting through this weekend. I skied Mount Snow yesterday morning and then at Wachusett last night with my kids high-school ski team, and the difference in both quantity and quality of the snow was night and day with Mount Snow having much better base depths and trail width than Wachusett did, even though both mountains are known to be aggressive with their snowmaking. Mount Snow has trails that are consistently 2/3rds to 3/4ths width covered with a few feet of snow that mountain ops did a good job grooming out post freeze up (even yesterday morning) whereas Wachusett was generally 1 to maybe 3 groomer width wide trails down to what is now a bulletproof base of generally what looked to be a foot or less.
> 
> If you're looking to get some early season laps on the legs on some groomers tomorrow your Epic Pass at Mount Snow will likely get you what your looking for with some decent snow conditions all things considered right now


OK.   So Carinthia first thing in the morning tomorrow is the plan.    My legs were Jello after day 1 at Sunapee.   I need to grab a couple of days this week.   I have a $29/day Hertz rate for a full size car (Camry) so day trips aren't trashing my car and the improved fuel economy compared to a 6-cyclinder Outback covers some of the rental.   I was expecting to get in a lot more days but the Wx hasn't been all that great.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 13, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I would not be surprised if Camelback and Blue end up on Ikon next year, being KSL owned now, but I also would not be surprised if they never do, considering that they are already at/over capacity and sell out of expensive season passes.


I really hope they both go IKON but since Camel didn't switch this year I have my doubts. 
Maybe it could spread the crowds out to other mountains?


----------



## PAabe (Dec 13, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> I really hope they both go IKON but since Camel didn't switch this year I have my doubts.
> Maybe it could spread the crowds out to other mountains?


possibly, most I could see is "limited partnership" like windham, several days


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 13, 2021)

Wildcat posted this on social media, and quickly deleted all comments and shut them off. This is the one run open. Yikes.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 13, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Saw the summit triple at Attitash is open. So maybe the new GM is better than whoever is running the show at The Cat?


Disagree. The triple should be the last terrain to open not first, 20 mins on the triple is not worth it for groomers. I would go illusion, learning center, morning star, tie the yankee in, the rest of bear, then the top half of attitash.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Wildcat posted this on social media, and quickly deleted all comments and shut them off. This is the one run open. Yikes.View attachment 52399



The last person who ran a ski resort so poorly in the East ended up in jail.   Maybe we can be so lucky with Wildcat. Lol.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 13, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> I think they are done in nh, For the most part, how many resorts can you own in a single state before the doj gets involved?  I could see their interest in Breton woods or Waterville valley, but if they buy one of them do they have to sell one they already own?


I can't see Vail buying both Bretton Woods ski resort and the Mt Washington Hotel as BW's business depends on selling BW club memberships which are part of the hotel property golf course etc.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 13, 2021)

drjeff said:


> That entire Mount Washington Resort, from Bretton Woods to the Resort Hotel to the Golf Course and surrounding network of year round, mutli-sport trails, is a solid year round operation that Omni has spent a bunch of $$ upgrading since they bought it


Switched from SR in Maine to Bretton Woods in NH this year.  I am shocked at how nice BW and the MWV area is compared to SR and Western Maine.   SR has gotten overcrowded with the pandering to the millennials selling them half price passes.  Add in all the IKON passholders crowding up the weekends and it starts to feel like KMart in VT.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 13, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Disagree. The triple should be the last terrain to open not first, 20 mins on the triple is not worth it for groomers. I would go illusion, learning center, morning star, tie the yankee in, the rest of bear, then the top half of attitash.





Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Switched from SR in Maine to Bretton Woods in NH this year.  I am shocked at how nice BW and the MWV area is compared to SR and Western Maine.   SR has gotten overcrowded with the pandering to the millennials selling them half price passes.  Add in all the IKON passholders crowding up the weekends and it starts to feel like KMart in VT.


Shhhh......  Don't tell everyone.  Spent 20+ years in Bethel, no complaints. We don't need much.. BUT, having been in the MWV for the last 10. I have to say, it does have way more to offer.  Love our Chamber of Commecre Pass


----------



## Geoff (Dec 14, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Carinthia base lodge can literally have you parking right at the snow, maybe 100 feet from the lift, and that lot, up until next Saturday, is still free parking.
> 
> Honestly they made a TON of snow, and it faired better than I was expecting through this weekend. I skied Mount Snow yesterday morning and then at Wachusett last night with my kids high-school ski team, and the difference in both quantity and quality of the snow was night and day with Mount Snow having much better base depths and trail width than Wachusett did, even though both mountains are known to be aggressive with their snowmaking. Mount Snow has trails that are consistently 2/3rds to 3/4ths width covered with a few feet of snow that mountain ops did a good job grooming out post freeze up (even yesterday morning) whereas Wachusett was generally 1 to maybe 3 groomer width wide trails down to what is now a bulletproof base of generally what looked to be a foot or less.
> 
> If you're looking to get some early season laps on the legs on some groomers tomorrow your Epic Pass at Mount Snow will likely get you what your looking for with some decent snow conditions all things considered right now


So the Corinthia parking lot is deserted at 8:30.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 14, 2021)

I highly doubt crotched gets open before Xmas. For vail this has to be convenient.


----------



## RichT (Dec 14, 2021)

Geoff said:


> So the Corinthia parking lot is deserted at 8:30.


Soooooooooo how was it?


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2021)

EPIC VAIL FAIL
    The Attitash & Wildcat Lift & Trail Report SUCKS BIGTIME !!!!!!!!!
 Everyday same thing, Doesn't even look updated since no new trails or lifts are open.

 What ever happened to a 1 paragraph update on what got snow/groomed or is skiing well. 
A 5yo could do it,  but it is obviously above the capability of anyone at WC or Attitash

 On the Upside - BW skied great this morning


----------



## Geoff (Dec 14, 2021)

RichT said:


> Soooooooooo how was it?


Machine groomed hardpack.  Competent job with the tiller.  I didn’t encounter golf balls.  It’s flat enough and light enough traffic that I didn’t hit any sheet ice.  I skied a couple hours and left.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> EPIC VAIL FAIL
> The Attitash & Wildcat Lift & Trail Report SUCKS BIGTIME !!!!!!!!!
> Everyday same thing, Doesn't even look updated since no new trails or lifts are open.
> 
> ...


I miss Nate W’s snow reports. They were great.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2021)

Yes,, His were good. All you needed to know in a paragraph.

I know he was fed up w/ the BS last year...


----------



## RichT (Dec 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> EPIC VAIL FAIL
> The Attitash & Wildcat Lift & Trail Report SUCKS BIGTIME !!!!!!!!!
> Everyday same thing, Doesn't even look updated since no new trails or lifts are open.
> 
> ...


Hunter's the same way! Vail truly sucks


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> 2Planker said:
> 
> 
> > On the Upside - BW skied great this morning
> ...


----------



## kendo (Dec 14, 2021)

RichT said:


> Hunter's the same way! Vail truly sucks


Agree Hunter's sucks but thinking it's a Hunter and Wildcat / Attitash problem vrs Vail.

Stowe had been including a daily traditional report on their website Snow & Weather page.   Have to think it's done by someone on the local Stowe staff.









						Stowe Mountain Weather Report | Stowe
					

Get the latest Snow and Weather Report from Stowe.




					www.stowe.com


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 14, 2021)

The state of skiing in the MWV is bad. I am a longtime wildcat pass holder and I feel tied to the mtn. For those who haven't been imagine NH mad river glen. Engaging top to bottom skiing for 2k vert. If you know the off-map runs the terrain gets as gnarly as you want. You're staring at gos/tuckerman/huntington ravine whenever the sun comes out. SUPER strong community of locals. You see the same faces over and over. The locals rip. The seasonal programs put out packs of shredders. Wildcat is everything that is right with skiing. Unfortunately it is being killed by vail. The season passholders are giving up and moving on to other mtns. Fuck Vail.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 14, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> The state of skiing in the MWV is bad. I am a longtime wildcat pass holder and I feel tied to the mtn. For those who haven't been imagine NH mad river glen. Engaging top to bottom skiing for 2k vert. If you know the off-map runs the terrain gets as gnarly as you want. You're staring at gos/tuckerman/huntington ravine whenever the sun comes out. SUPER strong community of locals. You see the same faces over and over. The locals rip. The seasonal programs put out packs of shredders. Wildcat is everything that is right with skiing. Unfortunately it is being killed by vail. The season passholders are giving up and moving on to other mtns. Fuck Vail.


Agree 100%
You and I have probably ridden the quad together and skied the brook in my 25 years at The Cat

Vail doesn't care one bit.  
The offer this summer was fair.
But no one wants to buy both At/WC.
The locals stood up to try to rescue Wildcat.
Vail will do nothing.....


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> The state of skiing in the MWV is bad. I am a longtime wildcat pass holder and I feel tied to the mtn. For those who haven't been imagine NH mad river glen. Engaging top to bottom skiing for 2k vert. If you know the off-map runs the terrain gets as gnarly as you want. You're staring at gos/tuckerman/huntington ravine whenever the sun comes out. SUPER strong community of locals. You see the same faces over and over. The locals rip. The seasonal programs put out packs of shredders. Wildcat is everything that is right with skiing. Unfortunately it is being killed by vail. The season passholders are giving up and moving on to other mtns. Fuck Vail.



From a terrain perspective, I'd say Smuggs is maybe the best comparison to Wildcat just due to the fact that Smuggs makes snow and grooms half their terrain in a similar fashion to Wildcat.   MRG doesn't do that.  But otherwise MRG is a good comparison for Wildcat, especially the Vibe.   Where Wildcat excels over both is the Quad.  You can get more skiing in at Cat on a Saturday by 11AM than a full day at MRG or Smuggs. 

It is both sad and infuriating to watch Vail not care at all about the place.  Thought I'd call the place home for as long as I live in New Hampshire.  I'd love for Rob Katz to read this thread and defend their performance since taking over.  

I mean I was at the bar at Pats Peak tonight for a night racing kickoff event.  33 degrees in the parking lot when I left and they had the fan guns flipped on.  It wouldn't surprise me if Vail doesn't have a snow gun going in the entire state.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Agree 100%
> You and I have probably ridden the quad together and skied the brook in my 25 years at The Cat
> 
> Vail doesn't care one bit.
> ...



What was the offer?  $10M?


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 14, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> From a terrain perspective, I'd say Smuggs is maybe the best comparison to Wildcat just due to the fact that Smuggs makes snow and grooms half their terrain in a similar fashion to Wildcat.   MRG doesn't do that.  But otherwise MRG is a good comparison for Wildcat, especially the Vibe.   Where Wildcat excels over both is the Quad.  You can get more skiing in at Cat on a Saturday by 11AM than a full day at MRG or Smuggs.
> 
> It is both sad and infuriating to watch Vail not care at all about the place.  Thought I'd call the place home for as long as I live in New Hampshire.  I'd love for Rob Katz to read this thread and defend their performance since taking over.
> 
> I mean I was at the bar at Pats Peak tonight for a night racing kickoff event.  33 degrees in the parking lot when I left and they had the fan guns flipped on.  It wouldn't surprise me if Vail doesn't have a snow gun going in the entire state.


Amazingly, they are blowing snow on Polecat, presumably from Tomcat down. Maybe there will be 2 half runs open for the holidays. Epic.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2021)

That surprises me.  They better hope mother nature helps out big time


----------



## snoseek (Dec 14, 2021)

So is the top snowmaking really screwed? Like is it fixable or are we just gonna have to rely on natural all season up there? If so it will be a short season for the quad which is tragic. I wont make that drive to lap tomcat no way


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 15, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Agree 100%
> You and I have probably ridden the quad together and skied the brook in my 25 years at The Cat
> 
> Vail doesn't care one bit.
> ...


Did a private group try to buy back the Cat? If so, that’s awesome. Don’t give up! Eventually Vail’s bubble will burst and they will need to sell.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 15, 2021)

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 15, 2021)

Only a few cars in the lot at WC....
Looks like employees only.

Makes sense, No new trails or lifts in over 10 days.....
 HS has moved to race training at "other facilities"


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2021)

What's was Vails reason for not selling?  They have to have a price.  Everyone does


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 15, 2021)

I can't believe how they fucked this up..its really sad. Maybe their going to use it as a write off?


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 15, 2021)

There's a long history of operations being trashed on the way out by operators with other regional interests who don't want competition, or just straight up shut down. Magic, Haystack, Tenney, not sure if Timberline was trashed on purpose or if it was just that bad, a bunch of Midwest hills that get into two or three mountain alliances that later shrink...


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 15, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> What's was Vails reason for not selling?  They have to have a price.  Everyone does


The hit to the stock would probably be more than the $ they'd generate from the sale.  As long as they keep raking in money hand over feet, they have no reason to sell, unfortunately for us.   As long as they're making that almighty dollar, their egos will keep convincing them they're invincible


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> The hit to the stock would probably be more than the $ they'd generate from the sale.  As long as they keep raking in money hand over feet, they have no reason to sell, unfortunately for us.   As long as they're making that almighty dollar, their egos will keep convincing them they're invincible



Not if the offer is high enough.   I don't think Vail has to hold onto every business they buy.   Plenty of corporations sell off underperforming business segments and the result is improved stock performance.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 15, 2021)

If they decide to sell any areas, my hunch is, so as not to potentially breach any implied contract that they have with their passholders and have to take an option away, that it won't be announced until late in the ski season, shortly before next seasons Epic passes go on sale.  You give a passholder more option once they've purchased a pass and that's not going to cause any issues. You take an option(s) away once they purchased a pass (even if some of those who might complain never likely intended to go there) and that has the potential to create more problems than just the sale itself could


----------



## machski (Dec 15, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I highly doubt crotched gets open before Xmas. For vail this has to be convenient.


Regardless of that, McIntyre opens this Friday!!  If Crotched gets beat by McIntyre, that is just plain flat pathetic.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 15, 2021)

My very loose theory is that vail attempts to have something gnarly and rustic in each region on their pass as to attract that crowd who also are the same crowd that generate buzz. In nh wildcat is really the only one on the table so while they took it as part of the peak sale they probably aim to keep it to sell passes. They probably don't put a whole lot of thought into it. 

Kirkwood and wildcat are similar in this fashion imo. Ten years in and besides the whole grid hook up(this was actually a big deal) kirkwood is the same as it ever was which sounds cool but the place needs some $$$$ sunk into it badly. It's also ashamed how they shut it with usually the deepest base of the year. 

The wildcat thing is on another level though. Somebody earlier mentioned something about how they could potentially be.labeled bad stewards and.be replaced. How bad would it have to be? Is it really possible? Let the state run it till a suitable buyer come along. Better yet let the state run it.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2021)

snoseek said:


> My very loose theory is that vail attempts to have something gnarly and rustic in each region on their pass as to attract that crowd who also are the same crowd that generate buzz. In nh wildcat is really the only one on the table so while they took it as part of the peak sale they probably aim to keep it to sell passes. They probably don't put a whole lot of thought into it.
> 
> Kirkwood and wildcat are similar in this fashion imo. Ten years in and besides the whole grid hook up(this was actually a big deal) kirkwood is the same as it ever was which sounds cool but the place needs some $$$$ sunk into it badly. It's also ashamed how they shut it with usually the deepest base of the year.
> 
> The wildcat thing is on another level though. Somebody earlier mentioned something about how they could potentially be.labeled bad stewards and.be replaced. How bad would it have to be? Is it really possible? Let the state run it till a suitable buyer come along. Better yet let the state run it.


Cannon /wildcat pass? I’m in


----------



## drjeff (Dec 15, 2021)

snoseek said:


> My very loose theory is that vail attempts to have something gnarly and rustic in each region on their pass as to attract that crowd who also are the same crowd that generate buzz. In nh wildcat is really the only one on the table so while they took it as part of the peak sale they probably aim to keep it to sell passes. They probably don't put a whole lot of thought into it.
> 
> Kirkwood and wildcat are similar in this fashion imo. Ten years in and besides the whole grid hook up(this was actually a big deal) kirkwood is the same as it ever was which sounds cool but the place needs some $$$$ sunk into it badly. It's also ashamed how they shut it with usually the deepest base of the year.
> 
> The wildcat thing is on another level though. Somebody earlier mentioned something about how they could potentially be.labeled bad stewards and.be replaced. How bad would it have to be? Is it really possible? Let the state run it till a suitable buyer come along. Better yet let the state run it.


And on the opposite side of that, I am guessing, and I am sure that many AZ'ers would agree, that there are plenty of extreme environmentalists who have the feeling that doing basically ANYTHING to forests is a bad thing, and will take that to court. Just look at ski areas like Wachusett and a bunch of others when they want to do some expansion and the environmental legal hurdles that they have to deal with, and even with Kirkwood in the bigger CA land/forestry management concept, short of some radical environmentalists, are there many out there who don't think that the in essence do nothing policy that CA has taken to land management the last decade or so hasn't made their wildfire situations worse than they could of been had some basic land maintenance clearing of dead trees and underbrush been done?  

There seems to be a bunch of factors going here, and not all are likely just an operations thing or a staffing thing. And we all need some good cold weather and a series of good snow storms soon!


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon /wildcat pass? I’m in


That would be a better pass than NYSki3


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon /wildcat pass? I’m in


I can’t think of a pass I would be happier to purchase.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2021)

drjeff said:


> And on the opposite side of that, I am guessing, and I am sure that many AZ'ers would agree, that there are plenty of extreme environmentalists who have the feeling that doing basically ANYTHING to forests is a bad thing, and will take that to court. Just look at ski areas like Wachusett and a bunch of others when they want to do some expansion and the environmental legal hurdles that they have to deal with, and even with Kirkwood in the bigger CA land/forestry management concept, short of some radical environmentalists, are there many out there who don't think that the in essence do nothing policy that CA has taken to land management the last decade or so hasn't made their wildfire situations worse than they could of been had some basic land maintenance clearing of dead trees and underbrush been done?
> 
> There seems to be a bunch of factors going here, and not all are likely just an operations thing or a staffing thing. And we all need some good cold weather and a series of good snow storms soon!



Nobody is talking about anyone cutting even a tree branch at Wildcat.  I mean I've mentioned a wish list of mountain maintained upper mountain glades, but that's the furthest thing from any Cat skiers mind right now.

All people want is for Vail to offer more than dog shit wages such that they can staff their operation to the same level as the competition.  Then when you have those employees, use them like the competition does to you know, turn on a snow gun even when it's not 15 degrees and 0% humidity or take 3 minutes to write a paragraph on the god damn snow report each morning.

Take off your rose colored glasses Jeff.  There is ZERO excuse for the bullshit going on in NH these days.  It's 100% corporate greed and incompetence.   It's December 15th and Vail basically has 8 trails open in the entire state.


----------



## Vince (Dec 15, 2021)

Skied Okemo Tues afternoon and Weds morning. Not much base but good surface conditions as the scrape softened up both days with sunny and high 30's. They say 30 trails I would call it 7 or 8. Gonna be demolition derby over the holidays if they don't get snow. 

The one day I went to Wildcat last year. They did not open till 11AM.  Said they had grooming problems and their policy was to not open until every groomer was off the mountain. Vail Sucks I hate Comcast and Ticketmaster more but not by much. 

Interesting numbers crunching on Vail done on a website called Seeling Alpha. Can't find the link but it was early December just before earnings came out


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 15, 2021)




----------



## ss20 (Dec 15, 2021)

Vail is in deep shit as there's essentially no snow coming to their CO resorts between now and Christmas.  Breck has 25 trails open.  It's very possible with the frigid temps coming in the NE their eastern resorts could have more terrain open than their western resorts come the start of the holiday week.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 15, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Vail is in deep shit as there's essentially no snow coming to their CO resorts between now and Christmas.  Breck has 25 trails open.  It's very possible with the frigid temps coming in the NE their eastern resorts _**with the exception of Wildcat and Attitash*_*  could have more terrain open than their western resorts come the start of the holiday week.


FTFY


----------



## JimG. (Dec 15, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> That would be a better pass than NYSki3


Agreed.

Wildcat is my favorite NH ski area. Cannon is for real as well.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 16, 2021)

Hmmmm   Maybe someone is listening...

 Attitash as of today, now has 1 paragraph Snow Report, found on their Snow and Weather Report page.

 Nice job.  WC has nothing so far though...


----------



## gittist (Dec 16, 2021)

"Skied Okemo Tues afternoon and Weds morning. " 

What was Okemo doing in regards to people (especially the non-skiers) in the lodges, both at the Clock tower and Jackson Gore?  Show the vax card, allowed to 'camp out' while the skiers enjoy the 2 or 3 trails, or were they being total jerks (no surprise if they were since is Fail-Vail)?

Thanks


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 16, 2021)

gittist said:


> "Skied Okemo Tues afternoon and Weds morning. "
> 
> What was Okemo doing in regards to people (especially the non-skiers) in the lodges, both at the Clock tower and Jackson Gore?  Show the vax card, allowed to 'camp out' while the skiers enjoy the 2 or 3 trails, or were they being total jerks (no surprise if they were since is Fail-Vail)?
> 
> Thanks


Okemo has 34 trails open according to their website


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Okemo has 34 trails open according to their website


34 trails that all look and ski the same


----------



## NYDB (Dec 16, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Hmmmm   Maybe someone is listening...
> 
> Attitash as of today, now has 1 paragraph Snow Report, found on their Snow and Weather Report page.
> 
> Nice job.  WC has nothing so far though...


Maybe whoever is writing that has to split time between the 2 mountains like the snowmaking ops.


----------



## Cobbold (Dec 16, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> 34 trails that all look and ski the same


Tend to be icy as well


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 17, 2021)

Day #2 of Attitash having a descent narrative on their Snow Report
 Still nothing similar from WC.   Prob also have a lil Wind Hold issue at The Cat today....


Attitash Report​ 
Good morning! Today is Friday, December 17th and we are open from 9AM - 3:30PM with the Summit Triple and the Learning Center Triple scheduled to operate. High winds are expected today that will affect lift operations. The Abenaki Terrain Park will be open with a setup on lower Spillway. For the weekend we are adding Upper and Lower Cathedral as well as the Flying Yankee to the lineup. Ptarmigan's Pub is open daily!

We are open on the Attitash side only while we continue our snowmaking efforts on Bear Peak. Cold air arrives tonight and our snowmaking team is ready to will bring Morning Star and Snowdancer online with a goal to open Bear Peak for Christmas weekend and expand terrain on the Attitash side.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 17, 2021)

I'm hoping they keep that quad going midweek. Either way it looks like I'll be skiing attitash before wildcat.

In other news crothed once again pushed out opening which shouldn't surprise anyone


----------



## abc (Dec 17, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Still nothing similar from WC. Prob also have a lil Wind Hold issue at The Cat today....


That’s when a little more detail would be specially useful...


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 17, 2021)




----------



## abc (Dec 17, 2021)

???


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 52430


Wow,  that is bad.  As bad as little Nordic Valley here in Utah last week--only the magic carpet was open.  

And did anyone else read that apparently Vail has closed Attitash's "West Double-Double" permanently due to its "impending replacement"?  That seems weird.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 17, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 52430


Thanx for proving my point...
Hasn't changed in 5 hours.


----------



## gittist (Dec 17, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Okemo has 34 trails open according to their website


Ok....so what is happening with being inside the lodges at Okemo?


----------



## Edd (Dec 17, 2021)

gittist said:


> Ok....so what is happening with being inside the lodges at Okemo?


Isn’t Vail doing the same thing at all ski areas? Masks inside and vax card for seated dining.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 17, 2021)

Yup..


----------



## Mainer (Dec 17, 2021)

Attitash opened Wilfreds today per Facebook(it’s time to ski for me) I hate to say it, but nice work.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 17, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Attitash opened Wilfreds today per Facebook(it’s time to ski for me) I hate to say it, but nice work.


But it's groomed. Not many turns. I loved it natural.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 17, 2021)

Resurfacing underway (9:50PM photo) at Mount Snow tonight. Fingers crossed mother nature delivers BIG over the next 24hrs or so!!


----------



## snoseek (Dec 18, 2021)

28 degrees and from what I can see no snowmaking going on up at wildcat. It feels like they are intentionally trying to tank the place. Sunapee has guns on so I won't hear the argument about marginal temps.


----------



## Edd (Dec 18, 2021)

I wonder if local media would be interested in covering this.  WMUR or someone.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 18, 2021)

Edd said:


> I wonder if local media would be interested in covering this.  WMUR or someone.


A nice front page article on The Sun would be good too!


----------



## Geoff (Dec 18, 2021)

Yesterday at Mount Sneaux, I parked at Corinthia, did a lap on the rolled out crunch on Nitro, and skied the novice trail over to the main mountain.  No bubble chair.  Wind hold.  Did some laps on the detachable quad that goes 2/3 of the way up to ski the death cookies and golf balls.  No way to ski back to Corinthia.  I decide to bail and take the shuttle back.   No shuttle loop to Corinthia until tomorrow.   Some bus driver does 10 stranded people a favor and runs us to Carinthia asking that we not tell anyone because he’s not supposed to do it.    

So no signage at Corinthia and no human warning customers.   The no shuttle back was pretty over the top in poor service.   I got to listen to 10 people bitch about pay parking for 30 minutes.  

I lived through the Chris Nyberg year #1 when POWDR bought Killington so I’ve experienced worse bitching.   POWDR had to correct things when their skier visits dropped 40%.   Vail probably doesn’t care because people will continue to buy their season pass product.   They’ll sell plenty of $25 burger/fries/soda on weekends.


----------



## Killingtime (Dec 18, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Yesterday at Mount Sneaux, I parked at Corinthia, did a lap on the rolled out crunch on Nitro, and skied the novice trail over to the main mountain.  No bubble chair.  Wind hold.  Did some laps on the detachable quad that goes 2/3 of the way up to ski the death cookies and golf balls.  No way to ski back to Corinthia.  I decide to bail and take the shuttle back.   No shuttle loop to Corinthia until tomorrow.   Some bus driver does 10 stranded people a favor and runs us to Carinthia asking that we not tell anyone because he’s not supposed to do it.
> 
> So no signage at Corinthia and no human warning customers.   The no shuttle back was pretty over the top in poor service.   I got to listen to 10 people bitch about pay parking for 30 minutes.
> 
> I lived through the Chris Nyberg year #1 when POWDR bought Killington so I’ve experienced worse bitching.   POWDR had to correct things when their skier visits dropped 40%.   Vail probably doesn’t care because people will continue to buy their season pass product.   They’ll sell plenty of $25 burger/fries/soda on weekends.


That sucks. I haven't been to Mt Snow in over 15 years but this year I picked up an Epic Pass. I remember having some fun times there but I'm not hearing good things from people who go there frequently. I was told to stay away on weekends but with work its not always possible. Hopefully they pull it together.


----------



## abc (Dec 18, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Vail probably doesn’t care because *people will continue to buy their season pass product*.


If so, they deserve the poor service!

It's not like there's no other choices. With the exception of those who live right at a mountain Vail bought, the rest of the skiing population can always vote with their wallet!


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 18, 2021)

snoseek said:


> 28 degrees and from what I can see no snowmaking going on up at wildcat. It feels like they are intentionally trying to tank the place. Sunapee has guns on so I won't hear the argument about marginal temps.


This is pretty interesting to me. 

Why would Vail tank Wildcat? 

If this is true, it’s going to have negative impacts on the areas local economy. That’s kind of F-d up. This really sucks for the loyal, Wildcat following.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2021)

This was just posted on Facebook 
Hunter


----------



## JimG. (Dec 18, 2021)

Well that's not as bad as it looks in terms of crowds.
But the lack of snow is more concerning.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 18, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Well that's not as bad as it looks in terms of crowds.
> But the lack of snow is more concerning.


Exactly.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 18, 2021)

Hopefully winter is coming for a while.


----------



## Edd (Dec 18, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> A nice front page article on The Sun would be good too!


Wouldn’t hurt but you’d think they’re already pretty interested. I don’t see anything on the website. They can blame weather a little longer but when Cranmore and BW do major trail expansion, the jig is up. 

And I understand Cattitash is small potatoes in Vail’s world but Xmas to New Years is coming quick, which is one of the key revenue periods for a normal ski area. There’s a lot of second homes in the MWV and the market there has been hot. Is Vail’s plan just to shrug their shoulders and send people to nearby competitors? The longer they act like this the easier it is to believe they’ll let Wildcat tank and MAYBE put all local effort into Attitash.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 18, 2021)

BW continues to ski really nice and NO LIFT LINES!


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 18, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> This is pretty interesting to me.
> 
> Why would Vail tank Wildcat?
> 
> If this is true, it’s going to have negative impacts on the areas local economy. That’s kind of F-d up. This really sucks for the loyal, Wildcat following.


The higher ups at vail are from finance/management consulting backs grounds. None of them have actually worked at a ski area. They provide a strict formula for their ski areas to operate in and put someone from within the company to implement it. They give their high profit areas (think gaper Meccas such such as Mont Snow, Okemo, unfortunately Stowe, Vail and Beaver Creek) enough of a budget for this to work. 

At places like wildcat, the rest of NH, and their areas in the midwest they have austere nonfunctional operational budgets. The end result is someone from outside the area trying to run a ski area on a shoestring budget with a pile of corporate BS on top of them. For example, they can't start hiring employees until fall, if something breaks the replacement part has to go through corporate procurement in Broomfield, and they can't increase wages if the local labor market won't support their shit wages.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> The higher ups at vail are from finance/management consulting backs grounds. None of them have actually worked at a ski area. They provide a strict formula for their ski areas to operate in and put someone from within the company to implement it. They give their high profit areas (think gaper Meccas such such as Mont Snow, Okemo, unfortunately Stowe, Vail and Beaver Creek) enough of a budget for this to work.
> 
> At places like wildcat, the rest of NH, and their areas in the midwest they have austere nonfunctional operational budgets. The end result is someone from outside the area trying to run a ski area on a shoestring budget with a pile of corporate BS on top of them. For example, they can't start hiring employees until fall, if something breaks the replacement part has to go through corporate procurement in Broomfield, and they can't increase wages if the local labor market won't support their shit wages.


All that matters is that Vail's stock closed up .54% yesterday to $322.21.


----------



## abc (Dec 18, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> hey give their high profit areas (think gaper Meccas such such as Mont Snow, Okemo, unfortunately Stowe, Vail and Beaver Creek) enough of a budget for this to work.


Add Whistler, Northstar and Heavenly to that?

I think I should try my best to get my proper share of Crested Butte as quickly as I can this year! Before it go down the route of Kirkwood or worse, Wildcat.

I'm not planning to renew my Epic pass next year. Or the year after... It's a once in a few year thing. But 2 year ago, I was at CB when the "big shutdown" happened. So, once I got my week or 2 at Crested Butte, I'll be moving on...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 18, 2021)

Not into writing long posts...so...my prediction for the future..is going back to the old days...earn your turns...
Yeah. It may suck....but..maybe not...
Thoughts??


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 18, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> The higher ups at vail are from finance/management consulting backs grounds. None of them have actually worked at a ski area. They provide a strict formula for their ski areas to operate in and put someone from within the company to implement it. They give their high profit areas (think gaper Meccas such such as Mont Snow, Okemo, unfortunately Stowe, Vail and Beaver Creek) enough of a budget for this to work.
> 
> At places like wildcat, the rest of NH, and their areas in the midwest they have austere nonfunctional operational budgets. The end result is someone from outside the area trying to run a ski area on a shoestring budget with a pile of corporate BS on top of them. For example, they can't start hiring employees until fall, if something breaks the replacement part has to go through corporate procurement in Broomfield, and they can't increase wages if the local labor market won't support their shit wages.


Thanks for the reply. 

Ive been thinking a lot about numbers recently and it seems to me that large organizations or corporations focus on numbers without taking into account human factors or reality. I think it generally results in a less than quality product. I know my statement here is extremely broad but I really feel this is true. This opinion has been formed recently from experiences with work the last few years and is very different than the current WC situation but I think it totally relates.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 18, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Not into writing long posts...so...my prediction for the future..is going back to the old days...earn your turns...
> Yeah. It may suck....but..maybe not...
> Thoughts??


I’ve ski toured a lot over the years but have been primarily a lift riding hot laps skier the last two seasons. The last two years have reminded me that if you want to ski your strongest you need that mileage.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 18, 2021)

Vail may not have money to pay enough to attract people to fill their open positions in the east, but they apparently have money to spend on advertising on TV. I saw an ad for Stowe and Hunter back to back a couple times tonight on TV here in NJ encouraging people to buy tickets now.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Vail may not have money to pay enough to attract people to fill their open positions in the east, but they apparently have money to spend on advertising on TV. I saw an ad for Stowe and Hunter back to back a couple times tonight on TV here in NJ encouraging people to buy tickets now.


There are still people who watch TV with commercials for anything other than sports?    Who knew?

On the labor thing, I don’t understand the lack of RFID gates at the lifts.


----------



## Edd (Dec 19, 2021)

Geoff said:


> There are still people who watch TV with commercials for anything other than sports?    Who knew?
> 
> On the labor thing, I don’t understand the lack of RFID gates at the lifts.


Yeah, weird because Sunapee had them before Vail bought them.  Now they're gone.


----------



## RichT (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm a 40yr+ skier at Hunter (2nd homeowner too), after these past weeks I've made a decision to spend ZERO money at the Mtn, I will bring my own food, booze and music with me. Fuck VAIL!!!!!!!


----------



## abc (Dec 19, 2021)

What's going on at Hunter?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 19, 2021)

Lol at anyone who still buys into this shit


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 19, 2021)

I know used RFID gates can be sold for substantial money, if they were in decent shape. Maybe Vail didn't contract with the old system provider and sold off the old hardware but didn't get the new gear installed in time?


----------



## telemike (Dec 19, 2021)

I heard the old Sunapee RFID gates went to Ragged


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 19, 2021)

abc said:


> What's going on at Hunter?


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 19, 2021)

Stowe today


----------



## RichT (Dec 19, 2021)

asnowmobiler said:


> View attachment 52440


1) NO communication from Hunter/Vail at all!
2) Minimal snowmaking.
3) Nazi mask police.
4) 45 minute max at bar with 2 drink max, no shots, music , TV's or hanging with to many people.
5) So far free parking, BUT i'm sure once they can figure that one out it won't be. 
6) Not enough employees.
7) No fireworks, bands or events scheduled............going to have to go to Windham for any of that.
8) ...................


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2021)

So I have to say that Vail has really pushed the standards for customer service, industrywide, to new lows.  Many other resorts see that the only thing that people care about are cheap passes.  I was talking in line this morning with another Alta/Bird passholder.  Snowbird does not have enough staff to open more lifts or terrain and we all know about Alta's issues with crowds and parking.  The corporatization of skiing has gotten worse.  I think we're now in worse position than when ASC was still operating.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 19, 2021)

When the only thing on corporate bean counters minds is pleasing shareholders then this is the result. Next season will be when we really find out if Vails austerity style is sustainable, or will a lot of pass holders be done with it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> When the only thing on corporate bean counters minds is pleasing shareholders then this is the result. Next season will be when we really find out if Vails austerity style is sustainable, or will a lot of pass holders be done with it.


It seems that a lot of New Hampshire/Northern New England Vail skiers are pretty upset.  But it will be interesting to see if these folks leave and if it is enough to make any difference.  It seems that Vail is banking on the city skiers who buy Epic and ski ten days a season to keep them in business.


----------



## RichT (Dec 19, 2021)

It's my home Mtn, so I'm kinda stuck, but like I've said, I'll buy the pass and spend ZERO money there. Going to go with the midweek one next year (but I bet they'll get rid of that). I can do day trips to Mt Snow and Okemo and spend zero $$$$$ there also.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 19, 2021)

Half hour waits today at sunapee today. Lot of crotched jackets. They do seem to be blowing some snow


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 19, 2021)

It would be safe to say..that most things in the world today are not operating as before.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 19, 2021)

Cat was empty today. At least from noon-2:30. Mostly the wildcat/gorham hs race team. Snow ranged from grippy NH ice to a few pockets of blown in pow. Saw more rippers than you would see in a week at Vail's Colorado areas so the wildcat stoke is still alive. Unfortunately no employees had an update on the upper mtn snowmaking pump. They were blowing snow on polecat, bet that opens before Xmas. Also saw a "fuck vail" sticker with the same font/logo as the official vail logo. Gave me a chuckle.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 19, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> It would be safe to say..that most things in the world today are not operating as before.


Everything is being optimized to maximize quarterly profits. Most common background for a ceo is they worked at Mckinsey and Co. This means society (from ski areas to medicine to everything else!) is increasingly being run by a group of people who:

a) went to a fancy college 
b) spent years getting hazed through unproductively long working hrs 
c) have no real world skills, they are experts at power point and excel though!!!!


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 19, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Cat was empty today. At least from noon-2:30. Mostly the wildcat/gorham hs race team. Snow ranged from grippy NH ice to a few pockets of blown in pow. Saw more rippers than you would see in a week at Vail's Colorado areas so the wildcat stoke is still alive. Unfortunately no employees had an update on the upper mtn snowmaking pump. They were blowing snow on polecat, bet that opens before Xmas. Also saw a "fuck vail" sticker with the same font/logo as the official vail logo. Gave me a chuckle.


Saw the Fuck Vail sticker at church tonite  Kinda Apropos


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 19, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So I have to say that Vail has really pushed the standards for customer service, industrywide, to new lows.  Many other resorts see that the only thing that people care about are cheap passes.  I was talking in line this morning with another Alta/Bird passholder.  Snowbird does not have enough staff to open more lifts or terrain and we all know about Alta's issues with crowds and parking.  The corporatization of skiing has gotten worse.  I think we're now in worse position than when ASC was still operating.


#bringbackASC #lescomeback


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 19, 2021)

Think ill go to Hunter tomorrow..slide around a bit.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> #bringbackASC #lescomeback


Dude, he is going to be reopening the Balsams soon.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 19, 2021)

Here's a nice Instagram to follow









						Stowe Parking Lot on Instagram: "Powder Day Baby! 📹: @hillymtnluv"
					

Stowe Parking Lot shared a post on Instagram: "Powder Day Baby! 📹: @hillymtnluv". Follow their account to see 190 posts.




					www.instagram.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> Here's a nice Instagram to follow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is hilarious!  So bummed for Stowe locals.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2021)

Word on the street out here is that Park City Mountain Resort is woefully understaffed.  I am seeing at least 140 position openings including entry level groomers, lift operators ($15 per hour), and snowmakers (starting at $15 per hour). 





__





						Park City Jobs: Explore. Grow. Belong.
					

Receive $20/hr. starting wage and perks/benefits that allow you to discover a passion for the outdoors. With 40+ resorts, you can join for a season or stay for a career.




					jobs.vailresortscareers.com
				




I've always wanted to run a groomer....


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Dec 20, 2021)

Not as much fun as it looks. Mostly grinding ice here on the east side.  Makes for a long slow bumpy ride. 8 hours of fighting the sleep demons inside a circle of bright lights in a sea of darkness.




Fact.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

Guess once im up there ill be getting up real early for Stowe on the weekends...


----------



## snoseek (Dec 20, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Guess once im up there ill be getting up real early for Stowe on the weekends...


You're retired now right? Just go brunching or something insteaad


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

snoseek said:


> You're retired now right? Just go brunching or something insteaad


Skip weekends. Use them to do chores and run errands.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2021)

Yeah, the day I retire is the day I give up skiing weekends unless it's really good weather or it dumps.   Same goes for boating.   Outside of kids visiting I suppose.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

Guns are going at Hunter...the cloud


----------



## Geoff (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It seems that a lot of New Hampshire/Northern New England Vail skiers are pretty upset.  But it will be interesting to see if these folks leave and if it is enough to make any difference.  It seems that Vail is banking on the city skiers who buy Epic and ski ten days a season to keep them in business.


Yep.   That’s the business model.  Sell Epic Passes to Texans who only ski 4 or 5 days at the I-70 resorts.   The 40+ day per year skier isn’t their market.  I grew up with a pricing model where 22 days was break even on a pass.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 20, 2021)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Not as much fun as it looks. Mostly grinding ice here on the east side.  Makes for a long slow bumpy ride. 8 hours of fighting the sleep demons inside a circle of bright lights in a sea of darkness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


About the opposite of how I would describe grooming.  You running an old Tucker?


----------



## FBGM (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Word on the street out here is that Park City Mountain Resort is woefully understaffed.  I am seeing at least 140 position openings including entry level groomers, lift operators ($15 per hour), and snowmakers (starting at $15 per hour).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was amazing just 5-7 years ago I’d have 100+ applications for grooming a year. Snowmaking bit less. J1s that would come back every year, same ones. 

I’m also a firm believer (now that I’ve gone from ski business, to corporate construction, now back to ski) that a cat operator should be paid same as an equipment operator in construction. Starting pay around $18. Top skilled 5+ year guys in the $25-$30 range.


----------



## abc (Dec 20, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It was amazing just 5-7 years ago I’d have 100+ applications for grooming a year. Snowmaking bit less. J1s that would come back every year, same ones.


5-7 years ago, that free annual pass worth a lot more than it does now. So the effective pay was higher.

Speaking of J1s, I ran into quite a few who doesn't even ski. Whatever that implies.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> 5-7 years ago, that free annual pass worth a lot more than it does now. So the effective pay was higher.
> 
> Speaking of J1s, I ran into quite a few who doesn't even ski. Whatever that implies.


And the free pass benefit extended to family members.   Plus employee discount on everything.    Inflation adjusted, I used to pay north of $2k for a season pass.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> 5-7 years ago, that free annual pass worth a lot more than it does now. So the effective pay was higher.
> 
> Speaking of J1s, I ran into quite a few who doesn't even ski. Whatever that implies.


I have 4 this year. They have no idea about anything (HR recruits them, sticks them random in departments…)

Trying to teach the one snowmaking. Not going well. 

They are more just extra labor and odd jobs around my area. Which is totally fine. Just not a designated skilled type like I’ve been used to in past. Hopefully some training and motivation goes far with them.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 20, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It was amazing just 5-7 years ago I’d have 100+ applications for grooming a year. Snowmaking bit less. J1s that would come back every year, same ones.
> 
> I’m also a firm believer (now that I’ve gone from ski business, to corporate construction, now back to ski) that a cat operator should be paid same as an equipment operator in construction. Starting pay around $18. Top skilled 5+ year guys in the $25-$30 range.


Yeah crazy how different wages are up north versus Boston area. Cat operator can easily make $40-50+ Per hour near Boston.  I see on Vail’s website Job openings for snow makers at Wildcat at $13 an hour. Ouch.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 20, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yeah crazy how different wages are up north versus Boston area. Cat operator can easily make $40-50+ Per hour near Boston.  I see on Vail’s website Job openings for snow makers at Wildcat at $13 an hour. Ouch.


That $40-$50/hr for equipment operator is most likely Union. For whatever they might be worth. 

When I was in the construction industry we were non union, but would pretty much end up paying union wage to get staff. But out in Utah the unions were weak. $30/hr out there was decent for even a union equipment operator. Compared to $60+ in say a Boston or NYC


----------



## tumbler (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> 5-7 years ago, that free annual pass worth a lot more than it does now. So the effective pay was higher.
> 
> Speaking of J1s, I ran into quite a few who doesn't even ski. Whatever that implies.


Yes, but a great deal of the experienced operators are not doing it for the pass, they are doing it for a living.  I would like to see some of them on skis


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yeah crazy how different wages are up north versus Boston area. Cat operator can easily make $40-50+ Per hour near Boston.  I see on Vail’s website Job openings for snow makers at Wildcat at $13 an hour. Ouch.



Dunkin donuts in N Conway was paying $14/hr plus an $800 sign on bonus this summer.

Who the hell is going to make snow for $13 when other local employment options are so much better?  I mean I guess if you are someone who really despises food service and working with the public.  

Vail can't play the understaffed card.  They dealt themselves that shitty hand.


----------



## skiur (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Word on the street out here is that Park City Mountain Resort is woefully understaffed.  I am seeing at least 140 position openings including entry level groomers, lift operators ($15 per hour), and snowmakers (starting at $15 per hour).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't seem right that a lifty makes as much money as a snowmaker.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Dunkin donuts in N Conway was paying $14/hr plus an $800 sign on bonus this summer.
> 
> Who the hell is going to make snow for $13 when other local employment options are so much better?  I mean I guess if you are someone who really despises food service and working with the public.
> 
> Vail can't play the understaffed card.  They dealt themselves that shitty hand.


Agreed...especially when they made that big press release earlier this year about how they were going to "raise their wages" (although they did have a caveat that certain markets wouldn't see those "big" raises they announced and would instead be based on the local market conditions...guess they don't really have a good understanding of the local NH market if DD is paying more than they are offering)


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

When they run out of snowmakers...run out of snow..and run out of groomers..then maybe they will raise wages...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Yeah crazy how different wages are up north versus Boston area. Cat operator can easily make $40-50+ Per hour near Boston.  I see on Vail’s website Job openings for snow makers at Wildcat at $13 an hour. Ouch.


Hence why they have none.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

Think about it..operating a 200k machine on 15 bucks an hour...insane.
The world is broken...and i dont see a fix in sight...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Think about it..operating a 200k machine on 15 bucks an hour...insane.
> The world is broken...and i dont see a fix in sight...


Vail ski area world is broken


----------



## abc (Dec 20, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> When they run out of snowmakers...run out of snow..and run out of groomers..then maybe they will raise wages...


They'll run out of customers. Then they may not have to raise wages...


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Dunkin donuts in N Conway was paying $14/hr plus an $800 sign on bonus this summer.
> 
> Who the hell is going to make snow for $13 when other local employment options are so much better?  I mean I guess if you are someone who really despises food service and working with the public.
> 
> Vail can't play the understaffed card.  They dealt themselves that shitty hand.


And FREE Donuts !!


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 20, 2021)

On the lift at Mount Snow today a guy was blaming NH Vail properties lack of snow on global warming. Had to remind him that Vails competitors in the area have top to bottom skiing.
On another note its pretty busy for a Monday afternoon, parking lot E has a decent amount of people. I parked in Lot A at 12:30 and had no issues. Snow guns are on but its a sheet of ice out here, seen a few pileups and ski patrol is coming down with a good amount of stretchers. Lots of beginners not ready for the icy conditions, probably as a result of newbies getting epic pass this year and Christmas break. Long John has few mogul fields with boiler plate cat track surrounding them, not a place for new skiers.


----------



## gittist (Dec 20, 2021)

2Planker said:


> And FREE Donuts !!


My wife said that we shouldn't forget the free coffee to go with the donuts!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> On the lift at Mount Snow today a guy was blaming NH Vail properties lack of snow on global warming. Had to remind him that Vails competitors in the area have top to bottom skiing.
> On another note its pretty busy for a Monday afternoon, parking lot E has a decent amount of people. I parked in Lot A at 12:30 and had no issues. Snow guns are on but its a sheet of ice out here, seen a few pileups and ski patrol is coming down with a good amount of stretchers. Lots of beginners not ready for the icy conditions, probably as a result of newbies getting epic pass this year and Christmas break. Long John has few mogul fields with boiler plate cat track surrounding them, not a place for new skiers.
> View attachment 52449


Um...that looks...like fun.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Um...that looks...like fun.


The snowboarder slalom courses make it even more of a challenge


----------



## abc (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Um...that looks...like fun.


Reminds me why I don't ski before New Year except on rare occasion of epic early season snow years.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 20, 2021)

Technical


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Technical


Exactly!


----------



## tumbler (Dec 20, 2021)

Board denies overflow parking lot for Stowe Mountain Resort
					

Stowe's Development Review Board said no to a proposed parking lot aimed at relieving parking pressures for the Stowe Mountain Resort.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Board denies overflow parking lot for Stowe Mountain Resort
> 
> 
> Stowe's Development Review Board said no to a proposed parking lot aimed at relieving parking pressures for the Stowe Mountain Resort.
> ...


No surprise at all.  Welcome to Vermont.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 20, 2021)

this all makes me laugh and grin with schadenfreude 

i do mourn stowe tho. solid chance i never ski stowe ever again


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Board denies overflow parking lot for Stowe Mountain Resort
> 
> 
> Stowe's Development Review Board said no to a proposed parking lot aimed at relieving parking pressures for the Stowe Mountain Resort.
> ...



Where was the overflow lot supposed to go? The article doesn't state it


----------



## cdskier (Dec 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Where was the overflow lot supposed to go? The article doesn't state it





			https://www.townofstowevt.org/vertical/sites/%7B97FA91EA-60A3-4AC6-8466-F386C5AE9012%7D/uploads/Project_6188_with_cover_sheet-_5400_Mountain_Road-_Parking_Area.pdf
		


5400 Mountain Road


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

The character...of the area...hmmm
I guess a 4 mile conga line...adds to the character...of the area...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Reminds me why I don't ski before New Year except on rare occasion of epic early season snow years.


Matters where you ski not just when. Mt Blow being south compared to northern areas makes a big difference.
How much snow did they get?
Cannon was good yesterday. Saw killington/ pico got 11”.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Matters where you ski not just when. Mt Blow being south compared to northern areas makes a big difference.
> How much snow did they get?
> Cannon was good yesterday. Saw killington/ pico got 11”.


4” if we’re being generous


----------



## slatham (Dec 20, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> No surprise at all.  Welcome to Vermont.


No, the parking lot denial makes perfect sense. Did they need this a few years ago, before Epic? This is the town saying  “F’u Vail sell all the passes you want but THERE WILL BE A LIMIT TO HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN SHOW UP AT STOWE.”

And by the way, they added parking a few years ago. Enough.

There are already too many skiers on peak days as it is. 

Good for them.


----------



## abc (Dec 20, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> 4” if we’re being generous


Really? K's web site said 11" since Saturday.


----------



## skiur (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Really? K's web site said 11" since Saturday.



I was at K, they definitely got around a foot.  My house at 1400 ft got about 8".  I think his 4" remark was about Mt snow.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Really? K's web site said 11" since Saturday.


Stopped snowing a little before 6PM on Saturday night, and then just light mist/drizzle/sleet and eventually back over to snow for just some very light end of storm accumulation. 3-4" of snow fell with a crust from the misting on top.

Not a big storm at Mount Snow by any means. The crust will keep it there if the wind picks up. Basically put down a little base snow


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

Just show up at Stowe an hour before they open..park in the mayors spot...be happy.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Stopped snowing a little before 6PM on Saturday night, and then just light mist/drizzle/sleet and eventually back over to snow for just some very light end of storm accumulation. 3-4" of snow fell with a crust from the misting on top.
> 
> Not a big storm at Mount Snow by any means. The crust will keep it there if the wind picks up. Basically put down a little base snow


Mr sunshine!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Really? K's web site said 11" since Saturday.



killington got a solid 6" before close (i drove in it and it fucking sucked). then they ran a groom over most terrain, and got another 4-5". the snow was pretty wet and heavy so it compacted and didn't ski deep, but they absolutely got 10+ and i am very glad i skied K instead of stratton on sunday. the first runs of the day down skyelark and superstar were 4-5" before you hit the groom


----------



## JimG. (Dec 20, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Skip weekends. Use them to do chores and run errands.


This is what I do


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 20, 2021)

Good plan...


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2021)

abc said:


> Really? K's web site said 11" since Saturday.



He was answering for Mt Snow


----------



## asnowmobiler (Dec 20, 2021)

Park City Ski Patrollers Reject Vail Resort's 3rd Attempt To Keep Their Wages The Same
					

The Park City Professional Ski Patrol Association (PCPSPA) has denied employer Vail Resort’s offer of $15/hr as a starting wage for the third time. The patrollers union entered this season wi…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2021)

Too funny.









						Mt. Baker Throws Shade At Mega-Passes With Lift Ticket Message
					

I love ski resorts that still print out lift tickets. The whole RFID gate system is too high-tech for me, and there’s something so nostalgic about attaching a lift ticket to the outside of my…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> anyone been to Mt snow or Okemo yet? How is it out there? I'm trying to decide if the drive is worth it for what they have open. Sunapee opened today and is 50 minutes from my house but 1 run open basically. Mt snow or Okemo have a few more trial but are 2 hrs and 2.5 hrs away from my house.
> 
> heading somewhere tomorrow. at least I'll be skiing!
> 
> thanks!


so, i ended up going to Mt snow. Conditions weren't bad.  crowded as you'd expect, lift lines were fine, didnt wait more than 5 minutes if you stayed away from the 6 pack. 

BUT.......

I parked in D lot as we got there at 9, and b/c i didn't want to park in a pay lot, ESPECIALLY when vail has made it clear that there are shuttles to/from the unpaid lots.

guess what? weekend day, lots packed, NO FUCKING SHUTTLES TO THE UNPAID LOTS. yep, that's right, NO FUCKING SHUTTLES. 

Now, I can walk. But my kids had a very hard time carrying their gear and making that walk, and in boots carrying skis it was no fun for me either. The walk form D lot sucks.

If you are going to charge for parking, and you say shuttles will be running, THEY BETTER BE FUCKING RUNNING, ESPECIALLY ON THE WEEKENDS. 

Maybe I read things wrong. that's possible. either way, I stand by my statement above.

vail sucks!


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 20, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Did not ski loon for about a decade but enjoyed it last spring and this year. It is very good for what it is: high speed midweek cruising when you don't have a full day and we haven't gotten natural.
> 
> There may be point later in the season if the weather goes to shit I grab a couple nh days at cannon but good with ragged/boyne combo thus far.
> 
> ...


how's ragged doing? Thats was my home mountain the last 5 years... great place, we just needed more options.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> how's ragged doing? Thats was my home mountain the last 5 years... great place, we just needed more options.


So now you have paid parking, ski areas with less trails open and more crowded trails and lift lines. Choose your option


----------



## thebigo (Dec 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> how's ragged doing? Thats was my home mountain the last 5 years... great place, we just needed more options.


See the ragged thread but I cannot say enough good things. Absolute gun show today, surface is always in good shape, no BS covid restrictions, easy parking, staff is abundant, friendly and engaging. 

Ragged feels like the only place in the world without a labor shortage and today I saw one of the reasons why. Sat down in the bar with my four year old for lunch, bar was full with only the barkeep working. She is excellent but there is a limit to what one person can do, the gm was also eating lunch, he saw the issue and immediately jumped up and pitched in to help out. The one time he stopped was to meet an employees kids.

Today was the first time my youngest skiied from the top of six, would post the video to give an idea of the surface but the file is too large.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2021)

And Ragged would be a place that's on the difficult side to staff I would think.   Most people don't like longish commutes on back roads for short money.  There's not a very large local population there, so I imagine many of their workers commute from the Concord area.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> And Ragged would be a place that's on the difficult side to staff I would think.   Most people don't like longish commutes on back roads for short money.  There's not a very large local population there, so I imagine many of their workers commute from the Concord area.


There is a significant contingent from Brazil, several lifties and kitchen help. Others are long term employees, local to the mountain that work on newfound in the summer.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 20, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> And Ragged would be a place that's on the difficult side to staff I would think.   Most people don't like longish commutes on back roads for short money.  There's not a very large local population there, so I imagine many of their workers commute from the Concord area.


Or Laconia and Plymouth


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> so, i ended up going to Mt snow. Conditions weren't bad.  crowded as you'd expect, lift lines were fine, didnt wait more than 5 minutes if you stayed away from the 6 pack.
> 
> BUT.......
> 
> ...


Yeah, Vail's stock price dropped just over 8 points today so they had to cut the shuttle service.  

Seriously, that sucks.  Especially with kids.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 21, 2021)

I would think that smaller family run places would attract help,even with low pay as opposed to corporations...like Fail.
Its not always about the money.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 21, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Not seeing that at the MS bubble yet, no effort to group people up at all.  One guy at the Grand Summit Express was pretty funny though.  Was actually pushing snowboarders towards the lift so that he could keep his no lift line thing going.  Everyone was having a good laugh.  Gotta clone that guy!


 when I was there saturday 12/4..., that bubble was a total joke the first 2 hours....we made the mistake of going into that line for our first lift.

it was the first weekend they more than 1-2 trials open, and it was a Saturday. you'd think they'd be ready....

That thing stopped literally very third person for anywhere from 5-15 minutes a time. It took us an hour from entering the lift to getting to the top.

and the lines weren't that bad. all four lanes at most 1/2 full. they just could not get that thing to work. looked like it was doing better later in the dat but we said fuck that thing and just went up to the top on the other lift that goes to the top next to it.

And, that lift was a total free for all when the lift kids just abandoned it about 1230 or so. literally every man for himself. luckily the crowds had thinned quite a built by that point.

more efficient my ass.....  between this crap and the no bus situation that was by far the worst experience I've ever had at a mountain. no joke.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2021)

*worst* Experience of a lifetime?


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 21, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Well, shows what I know about surface management. They groomed out Upper Blastoff. That skied very nicely. They groomed out whatever (too many dumb trail name sections) to the north. That had cookies. I ski 95% at Magic Mountain where they would preserve the whales, let them drain and groom then out when it gets cold. I see some very hard surfaces ahead.


 So, I know very little about grooming and snow making but want to understand it better. Can you explain further why you see hard surfaces ahead? Sunapee will be the place I ski 75% of the time once they get more rtails open.  thx!


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> So, I know very little about grooming and snow making but want to understand it better. Can you explain further why you see hard surfaces ahead? Sunapee will be the place I ski 75% of the time once they get more rtails open.  thx!


The more you groom something the more liable to turn to a sheet of ice it becomes since you’re compacting it down.









						Snow Farming - SugarBlog
					

Learn about the art and science behind snow grooming, from managing fresh powder to handling man-made piles under snow guns.




					blog.sugarbush.com


----------



## drjeff (Dec 21, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> So, I know very little about grooming and snow making but want to understand it better. Can you explain further why you see hard surfaces ahead? Sunapee will be the place I ski 75% of the time once they get more rtails open.  thx!



Best way to think about what a snowmaking whale is, is lets say that the time the gun was running to make the whale that it had 50,000 gallons of water pumped through it to make that whale. Not all of that water used to make the whale gets converted into a fully frozen product, so that whale will often have some wet, dense snow in it. If you leave that whale untouched by a groomer for a couple of days in dry conditions, some of that water will drain out of the whale, and then when they groom it out, you get a much drier finished product.

If they push out the whale quickly, then that wet snow gets exposed to the cold air, and it sets up into a firmer surface

There are times and locations where the reality is they need to groom out freshly made snow quickly (like say heavy volume trails where the whales for some could become safety issues) howver in an ideal scenario, once a whale is made, it would be left to drain for a few days prior to pushing it out. Just like sometimes after a liquid event, an area will choose to not groom out some terrain for a couple of days to let the water drain out before putting a machine on it


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 21, 2021)

machski said:


> Regardless of that, McIntyre opens this Friday!!  If Crotched gets beat by McIntyre, that is just plain flat pathetic.


i live 15 minutes from the mac. if it opens before crotched it wont be pathetic, it will be criminal negligence....

southern NH has been super warm, it was 60 last weekend. if the Mac can open but crotched cant, that says all you need to know about vail.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 21, 2021)

Cranmore has opened before wildcat for 2 years in a row now. Although they would have opened on the same day this year if wildcat hadn't been on wind hold. 

Financially, these are good times for Vail. Imagine how it will look once things start going south.


----------



## machski (Dec 21, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> i live 15 minutes from the mac. if it opens before crotched it wont be pathetic, it will be criminal negligence....
> 
> southern NH has been super warm, it was 60 last weekend. if the Mac can open but crotched cant, that says all you need to know about vail.


They did and Crotched still has no posted planned opening date.  I'm disgusted with Vail and Epic, first and last year for us ever.  I get it has been warm but given what others in the same region have been able to do, Vail is epic failing in my book.  Likely due to staffing and management failure rather than just weather at this point.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 21, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> i live 15 minutes from the mac. if it opens before crotched it wont be pathetic, it will be criminal negligence....
> 
> southern NH has been super warm, it was 60 last weekend. if the Mac can open but crotched cant, that says all you need to know about vail.


Mcintyre snow report:


> _Report updated December 20, 2021 at 9:51am_
> 
> Thank you to everyone who joined us for opening weekend, we will re-open for day and night skiing and riding on Thursday, December 23 from 12pm-8pm with $20 lift and $20 rental. Our snowmakers will be back on the slopes making snow to add to our trail count, and we’ll be sure to add that information here as soon as it becomes available. Our Retail and Rental Shop will be open Monday through Wednesday 9am to 6pm and then open following the lift operating hours for Thursday and Friday.


Crotched snow report, at least they updated it, last I checked it was still from closing day.


> Hello Crotched Mountain family!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## thebigo (Dec 21, 2021)

I feel for the crotched seasonal instructors. There are many excellent passionate instructors that must be absolutely furious. Hopefully they take their talents to pats/ragged/gunstock etc. next year.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I feel for the crotched seasonal instructors. There are many excellent passionate instructors that must be absolutely furious. Hopefully they take their talents to pats/ragged/gunstock etc. next year.



For sure.  I had a number of excellent experiences with Eric and his team with our son over the past three seasons. I feel for all the rank and file Vail employees who are hostage to their "spreadsheet" managing overlords.   I can't even imagine how bad staffing will be next year at their NH properties.  This year is even worse than last which was bad enough to lose my business and that of many friends.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> ...I feel for all the rank and file Vail employees who are hostage to their "spreadsheet" managing overlords.   I can't even imagine how bad staffing will be next year at their NH properties.  This year is even worse than last which was bad enough to lose my business and that of many friends.


100%

Xmas week is going to be rough at Vail's NH areas. All of VT and Hunter is blacked out on the Northeast value pass. None of the NH areas are and I bet you see the hoards from DC to Boston descending on the Granite State. People are going to be pissed at how much of a shit show everything is and unfortunately some assholes will start berating the rank and file employees. Wildcat lost several employees last year due to this. Can't say I blame them when pretty much everywhere is hiring up here.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 21, 2021)

It’s going to be bad at attitash. J1s in ticket booth and bumping chairs. No quad midweek again, not enough staff they said. No rentals today, probably 5 people asked while waiting for pass. Even the dunkin in Glen was closed, guessing not enough staff. 
   Skiing was fine, basically 1.5 trails off top.  They are going to get crushed Christmas week. They were blowing snow hopefully can open bear soon.


----------



## abc (Dec 21, 2021)

In the old days, when thing aren't working (no shuttle, no rental etc), you get a voucher for something free (lift ticket, free rental etc). These days with most people skiing on passes, what do they give as compensation? Hot chocolate? Or just a shrug of the shoulder?


----------



## Edd (Dec 21, 2021)

Mainer said:


> It’s going to be bad at attitash. J1s in ticket booth and bumping chairs. No quad midweek again, not enough staff they said. No rentals today, probably 5 people asked while waiting for pass. Even the dunkin in Glen was closed, guessing not enough staff.
> Skiing was fine, basically 1.5 trails off top.  They are going to get crushed Christmas week. They were blowing snow hopefully can open bear soon.


Imagine being a condo owner at Attitash right now.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 21, 2021)

machski said:


> They did and Crotched still has no posted planned opening date.  I'm disgusted with Vail and Epic, first and last year for us ever.  I get it has been warm but given what others in the same region have been able to do, Vail is epic failing in my book.  Likely due to staffing and management failure rather than just weather at this point.


I'm coming to think that too. I will most likely be a 1 and done as well.


----------



## So Inclined (Dec 21, 2021)

Edd said:


> Imagine being a condo owner at Attitash right now.



My parents have a couple time-share weeks up in the MWV, including one at the condos right across the road from Attitash. Which, somewhat dated as those units are, can be a solid base of operations for a week. Lots of good memories there. Nothing like getting a 6"-10" midweek storm, walking 5 mins over and having virtually the whole place to myself because Attitash could so reliably be a ghost town M-F. That seemed to happen for me many, if not most years.

Yet nowadays I'm so glad those weeks are relatively easy and cheap to exchange if I want. Even having an Epic pass, I all but rule out planning a big trip up there; I'd rather pay to go somewhere I can reasonably count on the conditions, the lifts, etc.


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 21, 2021)

So Inclined said:


> My parents have a couple time-share weeks up in the MWV, including one at the condos right across the road from Attitash. Which, somewhat dated as those units are, can be a solid base of operations for a week. Lots of good memories there. Nothing like getting a 6"-10" midweek storm, walking 5 mins over and having virtually the whole place to myself because Attitash could so reliably be a ghost town M-F. That seemed to happen for me many, if not most years.
> 
> Yet nowadays I'm so glad those weeks are relatively easy and cheap to exchange if I want. Even having an Epic pass, I all but rule out planning a big trip up there; I'd rather pay to go somewhere I can reasonably count on the conditions, the lifts, etc.


You should write a letter to the editor of the Conway daily sun!


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

abc said:


> In the old days, when thing aren't working (no shuttle, no rental etc), you get a voucher for something free (lift ticket, free rental etc). These days with most people skiing on passes, what do they give as compensation? Hot chocolate? Or just a shrug of the shoulder?


You get a nice hot chocolate voucher if you’re lucky and there’s workers around


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 21, 2021)

Supply chain issues...no hot chocolate for you.


----------



## njdiver85 (Dec 21, 2021)

Mount Snow must have stockpiled all the hot chocolate in Vermont given their lift issues!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 21, 2021)

Went to the gas station across from Hunter to get a sandwich for my fine dining in my truck..they were out of food....
I think we are becoming a second..world country.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2021)

I have been pleased with the Ikon so far this year. Went to someday bigger today For day 2 there this year. Parked at white cap but skied mostly Barker and Speare which both skied well accept right stuff. Weird traversing over and back to Jordan with Aruora and oz closed. Rogue angel was fun on the whales though. Been to sugarbush 3 times and loon twice and k once. So glad I didn’t get the septic pass!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 21, 2021)

Be glad you have options. My only close options are Epic next year. My only non-Epic option, for reliable snow, will be Blue Mountain.  Considering that its 2 hours away and a zoo on the weekends, I'd rather not.  Epic has me by the balls...


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Be glad you have options. My only close options are Epic next year. My only non-Epic option, for reliable snow, will be Blue Mountain.  Considering that its 2 hours away and a zoo on the weekends, I'd rather not.  Epic has me by the balls...


PA/NH skiers really getting the shaft under Vail.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Be glad you have options. My only close options are Epic next year. My only non-Epic option, for reliable snow, will be Blue Mountain.  Considering that its 2 hours away and a zoo on the weekends, I'd rather not.  Epic has me by the balls...



Damn

As if central PA isn't a tough enough location for a skier to reside.   I'd lose my shit.  Sorry man


----------



## RichT (Dec 21, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I have been pleased with the Ikon so far this year. Went to someday bigger today For day 2 there this year. Parked at white cap but skied mostly Barker and Speare which both skied well accept right stuff. Weird traversing over and back to Jordan with Aruora and oz closed. Rogue angel was fun on the whales though. Been to sugarbush 3 times and loon twice and k once. So glad I didn’t get the septic pass!


Septic Pass...........I LIKE THAT!!!


----------



## abc (Dec 21, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> As if central PA isn't a tough enough location for a skier to reside.   I'd lose my shit.  Sorry man


If I have to say so, people who choose to live away from snow and mountain have other priorities. Beggars can't be choosers. It's not like they have a vast options to choose from before Vail came in.

So it's either put up with whatever Vail provides and make the most of it. Or they can just ski out west like all Floridians and Texans! By not buying a Vail Epic pass, they give up local skiing. If it's so crappy, it may not be such a huge lose. What they gain is the freedom to ski anywhere when they go out west. Taos? Jackson? A-basin? Wolf Creek??? Are those not worth giving up PA local skiing every other year?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2021)

abc said:


> If I have to say so, people who choose to live away from snow and mountain have other priorities. Beggars can't be choosers. It's not like they have a vast options to choose from before Vail came in.
> 
> So it's either put up with whatever Vail provides and make the most of it. Or they can just ski out west like all Floridians and Texans! By not buying a Vail Epic pass, they give up local skiing. If it's so crappy, it may not be such a huge lose. What they gain is the freedom to ski anywhere when they go out west. Taos? Jackson? A-basin? Wolf Creek??? Are those not worth giving up PA local skiing every other year?



I'm not sure you're making Jimmy's night here, but yes he has options.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 21, 2021)

I have not skied out west since I was a young kid and have no intention of doing so in the near future.  Every part of that trip is expensive and a hassle.

Vail has now taken over 3 companies that each operated 2/3 different ski areas throughout the state.  So it's not like there's not options for south/central PA and MD - it's all the options are Vail

PA is a mountainous state and it's not like we dont get snow.  In fact there are several cross country operations that rely on natural snow, and with downhill, Blue Knob, Laurel, and Tussey basically count on natural snow to get most/many of their trails open.

I am fortunate in that I can get to Montage in 2 hours but it's not like I would go up there multiple times a week to do a few night laps.  Yes there are options in NEPA in the poconos but Vail has taken over basically all of the reliable major operations in the rest of the state.

There used to be a lot more smaller operations around and I kind of blame the better ski technology, desire to do hot laps on detachables, and humungo insurance rates and liability on causing those to disappear.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 21, 2021)

Yup   and people who gave it an honest effort have already quit for this year


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 21, 2021)

abc said:


> If I have to say so, people who choose to live away from snow and mountain have other priorities. Beggars can't be choosers. It's not like they have a vast options to choose from before Vail came in.
> 
> So it's either put up with whatever Vail provides and make the most of it. Or they can just ski out west like all Floridians and Texans! By not buying a Vail Epic pass, they give up local skiing. If it's so crappy, it may not be such a huge lose. What they gain is the freedom to ski anywhere when they go out west. Taos? Jackson? A-basin? Wolf Creek??? Are those not worth giving up PA local skiing every other year?


You'd be surprised how many rippers those little areas in PA and the midwest produce. If you want to ski well skiing a lot is a necessity and small night skiing areas allow the locals to get a ton of days in while maintaining normal work/school schedules. Remember, regardless of how much vert you have you can only make one turn at a time.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 21, 2021)

Every ski area in PA has night skiing as far as I know and many/most? schools have a ski club.  Vail is not hospitable to the ski clubs or kids in general

Blue, Bear Creek, Shawnee are and consequently are packed every friday night.  It's a radical time


----------



## abc (Dec 21, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail is not hospitable to the ski clubs or kids in general


What Vail will do with these new mountains remains to be seen. 

But if one's focus is clubs and kids program, and one's home mountain lose those under Vail, what's the point of buying an Epic pass after all?


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 21, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> You'd be surprised how many rippers those little areas in PA and the midwest produce. If you want to ski well skiing a lot is a necessity and small night skiing areas allow the locals to get a ton of days in while maintaining normal work/school schedules. Remember, regardless of how much vert you have you can only make one turn at a time.


I’m not surprised at all. The park skiing explosion during the late 90’s, early 2000’s changed everything for small ski areas.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 21, 2021)

Vail is pretty consistent: stops doing group sales, jacks up night skiing and rental rates, neglects the parks, cuts night skiing hours, prohibits being dropped off and leaving gear bags in the lodge, installs anti-fun police = inhospitable to young skiers

I also blame them for causing their critical mass of ski areas to end the 4th and 5th grade ski passport


----------



## abc (Dec 21, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail is pretty consistent: stops doing group sales, jacks up night skiing and rental rates, neglects the parks, cuts night skiing hours, prohibits being dropped off and leaving gear bags in the lodge, installs anti-fun police = inhospitable to young skiers
> 
> I also blame them for causing their critical mass of ski areas to end the 4th and 5th grade ski passport


Well, I guess Vail doesn't care to lose the park rats, kids (and their parents). They'll just have to travel further to find other places to ski.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail is pretty consistent: stops doing group sales, jacks up night skiing and rental rates, neglects the parks, cuts night skiing hours, prohibits being dropped off and leaving gear bags in the lodge, installs anti-fun police = inhospitable to young skiers
> 
> I also blame them for causing their critical mass of ski areas to end the 4th and 5th grade ski passport


Vail is about one thing and one thing only:  the Epic Pass.  Anything else detracts from that product (except for the additional services such as lessons, rentals, food, retail).  Vail killed PCMR's night skiing, which historically was a favorite of locals.  Why?  They were not making $$$.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 22, 2021)

Beaver Creek:  30 of 169 trails open.  16 of those are novice trails.  Snow-Forecast shows maybe 5” of snow this week.  Christmas week is going to be a disaster.  I’m probably going to reschedule my January 3 trip.


----------



## skiur (Dec 22, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vail is pretty consistent: stops doing group sales, jacks up night skiing and rental rates, neglects the parks, cuts night skiing hours, prohibits being dropped off and leaving gear bags in the lodge, installs anti-fun police = inhospitable to young skiers
> 
> I also blame them for causing their critical mass of ski areas to end the 4th and 5th grade ski passport



Prohibit being dropped off?  How's do they do that?


----------



## PAabe (Dec 22, 2021)

skiur said:


> Prohibit being dropped off?  How's do they do that


Oops didnt really mean that,  I mean you can't really get dropped off easily (like by a bus) because they make it difficult to leave your bags in the lodge


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 22, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Oops didnt really mean that,  I mean you can't really get dropped off easily (like by a bus) because they make it difficult to leave your bags in the lodge


Yeah not allowing bags in the lodge is downright uncivilized. Sunday River isn't allowing bags in the lodge this year but lots of people are doing it anyways with no apparent consequences from what I've seen. Power is in the hands of the governed


----------



## ss20 (Dec 22, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Beaver Creek:  30 of 169 trails open.  16 of those are novice trails.  Snow-Forecast shows maybe 5” of snow this week.  Christmas week is going to be a disaster.  I’m probably going to reschedule my January 3 trip.



Yeah Colorado is in rough shape.  I believe Vail has 1/3 trails open, Breck has 38/187 trails open.  Over here Park City has had...wait for it...41" of snow this season.  50/350 trails open.  

I would not cancel your trip.  The entire West Coast (save Montana) is going to get hammered with snow in the coming week.  OpenSnow predicting 21" over the next 5 days at Beaver.  Do not use Snow-Forecast... they take the computer results from one weather model (the GFS) and spew it out.  OpenSnow is generally pretty good for ski-specific forecasts.  CO will probably get 2-3 feet by New Year's.  I would do a little more digging into the forecasts and make your own call.  I'm sure NOAA for Boulder/Denver has a ski resort page tucked away.


----------



## skiur (Dec 22, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Oops didnt really mean that,  I mean you can't really get dropped off easily (like by a bus) because they make it difficult to leave your bags in the lodge


Gotcha, they don't have a bag check?  Killington doesn't allow you to leave bags under a table anymore but they have a free bag check.  I like this much better as you don't have to kick people's bags out of the way to sit at a table.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2021)

The free bag check is the best...


----------



## abc (Dec 22, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> The free bag check is the best...


Second that. 

No longer have to dig through the mountain of bags others pile on top to fish mine out from the bottom. 

More tidy lodge too.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2021)

Too bad Hunter got rid of the ski check...
Just another Vail..."improvement"


----------



## gittist (Dec 22, 2021)

They probably gave out coupons that expire within 15 minutes..


PAabe said:


> Every ski area in PA has night skiing as far as I know and many/most? schools have a ski club.  Vail is not hospitable to the ski clubs or kids in general
> 
> Blue, Bear Creek, Shawnee are and consequently are packed every friday night.  It's a radical time


Jack Frost doesn't have night skiing so that's at least one thing that Vail didn't cut out.


----------



## kendo (Dec 22, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Too bad Hunter got rid of the ski check...
> Just another Vail..."improvement"


Ski check outside by the deck?   

Guess I haven't been paying attention - did they close the bag check counter (attended room) downstairs?  Are you allowed to boot up downstairs in the lodge this year or no bueno?  Thx.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Yeah not allowing bags in the lodge is downright uncivilized. Sunday River isn't allowing bags in the lodge this year but lots of people are doing it anyways with no apparent consequences from what I've seen. Power is in the hands of the governed


Alta and Snowbird no long allow it unless one is using a paid locker.


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## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

abc said:


> Second that.
> 
> No longer have to dig through the mountain of bags others pile on top to fish mine out from the bottom.
> 
> More tidy lodge too.


I think that there will be a sizable amount of people ultimately on BOTH sides of the bags vs no bags allowed in the lodges going forward.

In situation that I am guessing we most all of experienced, the amount of bags in a lodge and the effect it has on seating and at times even moving around in a lodge can be a negative and at times can also be associated with people who choose to camp out all day and essentially take full possesion of a table for most of the day, especially if it involves a group of people going to the mountain that day. That situation has its drawbacks for sure

The flipside, is many people, whiling tolerating it last season because of COVID, just aren't fans of using their vehicles as a base lodge, which does include botting up and taking them off at their vehicle at the end of the day.

Seems like its close to impossible to please both groups, and both groups likely account for well more than 1/2 in total of the skiing/riding population


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 22, 2021)

Saw people booting up downstairs..didnt see the bag check..maybe on weekends
Im doing it in my truck..


----------



## Edd (Dec 22, 2021)

BW lets you boot up in the lodge but cubbies are outside. Cannon had a bag check ($3). I’m ok with both of those setups.


----------



## gittist (Dec 22, 2021)

Pretty soon (Especially at Vail owned places) the lodges will be torn down, they'll cut a window into one port-a-pot for ticket sales and the other port-a-pots will be cleaned once every two weeks whether they need it or not and that will be all there is for 'facilities'; and bring your own TP like in the Caribbean.  Retro skiing at it's best (or worst depending on your point of view)


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

Crotched opens on December 26the per what was just announced on their social media pages


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Crotched opens on December 26the per what was just announced on their social media pages


That's gonna be a shit show, opening on one of the busiest days of the season with lots of passes blacked out down the street in VT. Hard pass.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> That's gonna be a shit show, opening on one of the busiest days of the season with lots of passes blacked out down the street in VT. Hard pass.


Probably opening to alleviate pressue on the other NH Epic spots


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I think that there will be a sizable amount of people ultimately on BOTH sides of the bags vs no bags allowed in the lodges going forward.
> 
> In situation that I am guessing we most all of experienced, the amount of bags in a lodge and the effect it has on seating and at times even moving around in a lodge can be a negative and at times can also be associated with people who choose to camp out all day and essentially take full possesion of a table for most of the day, especially if it involves a group of people going to the mountain that day. That situation has its drawbacks for sure
> 
> ...



I think the solution is pretty simple.  Offer a free baggage storage area away from the dining areas in lodges with good signage.   Build the cost into the passes.  Don't nickel and dime people.


----------



## abc (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I think that there will be a sizable amount of people ultimately on BOTH sides of the bags vs no bags allowed in the lodges going forward.


I don't think too many people are against bags in the lodge per se. What they object, is bags haphazardly left all over the lodge.

I would think most people wouldn't mind putting their bags in the bag check. Whether they want to pay for that or not is a different matter. I even think a good portion of them are willing to pay a little, as long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Free bag check would be a close to perfect solution.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't think too many people are against bags in the lodge per se. What they object, is bags haphazardly left all over the lodge.
> 
> I would think most people would mind putting their bags in the bag check. Whether they want to pay for that or not is a different matter. I even think a good portion of them are willing to pay a little, as long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
> 
> Free bag check would be a close to perfect solution.


Gotta have enough space for it though, which often takes away from other potential revenue generating space in a lodge, which if one is honest probably spends less days in a calendar year generating revenue than not.

The Stratton main base lodge is a great example of this. They don't allow bags to be left in the table areas (staff will constantly remind you of this while booting up in the AM and remove your bags if you leave them there when you head out to the hill. 

They have a free bag check down a cubby lined hallway off of the main table area in the lodge. That staffed free bag check on most weekend days from what I have experienced over the last 15yrs or so that my kids have regularly had races at Stratton fills up quickly, then the free cubbies fill up quickly, then bags left on the floor next to the cubbies start piling up, then by lunchtime, there's barely a 1 person lane to walk through in the hallway to/from the bag check room to the table area. Honestly surprised that the fire marshal once or twice over the years hasn't taken issue with this..

I fully like having my boot bag in the lodge where I boot up. When I am not at Mount Snow, where my family are members of the Mount Snow ski club where we have our own locker, locker room area with cubbies and lunch rooms with even more cubbies for boot bag storage, I am always seeking out a bag check (free or paid) or a paid locker (I had a boot bag stolen one night back in the late 90's from a free cubby area at Ski Sundown in CT so I am very pro monitored or locked bag storage!),  sometimes though with what it can and has morphed into at some ski areas, the bag storage situation in the lodge has gotten a bit out of hand.  

Think about it, isn't a non base area mid mountain or Summit Lodge where folks aren't storing boot bags all day much easier to move around in and sit down at a table and not have to move bags out of the way while doing so? 

Pros and cons for each. Guessing that many places are thinking more about a no, or limited bags in the lodge policy after last year when they saw how it changed lodge use a bit. I know I have heard a couple of ski area GM's on various ski industry podcasts say that they're going to give this topic some thought after seeing *SOME* plusses last season..

There were a bunch of things about last year's COVID season that got many in the industry rethinking how they have been doing certain things, and if that "traditional way" of thought is still the best way of thought


----------



## abc (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Gotta have enough space for it though, which often takes away from other potential revenue generating space in a lodge



Some people don't bring bags in because they change in their car. But many other don't like to boot up in the car. Their bags needs to go somewhere. 

Whether there's extra space or not, those bags will be in the lodge. So it's just a choice of either under the table or in a (free or paid) bag check.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 22, 2021)

Does anyone here just drive to the ski area in their ski pants and base layer and just boot up in the lot?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 22, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Does anyone here just drive to the ski area in their ski pants and base layer and just boot up in the lot?


Always Boot up in the lot but sometimes ski pant up in the lot as well. Matters how far I am driving.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Does anyone here just drive to the ski area in their ski pants and base layer and just boot up in the lot?


Depends on how far I am traveling to the ski area.

An hour or less and the base layers and ski pants are on for the drive.

An hour or more, sometimes I change there sometimes on for the drive. Depends on the temperature that day


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Does anyone here just drive to the ski area in their ski pants and base layer and just boot up in the lot?


Drive to resort in base layers, drive home in ski pants if I’m too lazy to remove them. Always boot up in lot unless girlfriend is against it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Depends on how far I am traveling to the ski area.
> 
> An hour or less and the base layers and ski pants are on for the drive.
> 
> An hour or more, sometimes I change there sometimes on for the drive. Depends on the temperature that day



Same formula.  I'll add that any commute over 30 minutes and I don't wear my ski socks.  Having sweaty feet / socks to start the day is a recipe for cold feet for me.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Same formula.  I'll add that any commute over 30 minutes and I don't wear my ski socks.  Having sweaty feet / socks to start the day is a recipe for cold feet for me.


Yup.

My ski socks almost always travel to the ski area I am driving to loosely in the cuff area of my boots with an open hand warmer packet in my boot. That way I am changing into warm, dry socks which then go into a warm boot


----------



## thebigo (Dec 22, 2021)

I got a 15 minute limit. Less than 15 mins everything but my right boot is on in the room. More than 15 minutes and my balls start to sweat, it is shorts in the car and full change in the lodge. I hated changing and booting up in the car after longer drives. With the exception of SR, everywhere I have skied this year has allowed boot bags, I just left my bag outside on the deck at sr.

Never considered putting on ski socks at the mountain, guess I have never had cold feet?

The one I never understood is people that put their contacts in at the mountain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I got a 15 minute limit. Less than 15 mins everything but my right boot is on in the room. More than 15 minutes and my balls start to sweat, it is shorts in the car and full change in the lodge. I hated changing and booting up in the car after longer drives. With the exception of SR, everywhere I have skied this year has allowed boot bags, I just left my bag outside on the deck at sr.
> 
> Never considered putting on ski socks at the mountain, guess I have never had cold feet?
> 
> The one I never understood is people that put their contacts in at the mountain.



Warm feet and dry testicles is the way


----------



## zyk (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Yup.
> 
> My ski socks almost always travel to the ski area I am driving to loosely in the cuff area of my boots with an open hand warmer packet in my boot. That way I am changing into warm, dry socks which then go into a warm boot


    Yeah socks and gloves on the dash hand warmers in the boots.  Start warm stay warm.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Warm feet and dry testicles is the way


Warm feet, dry meat


----------



## abc (Dec 22, 2021)

I'm short and small. And my car has a one-touch power seat. So I change in the car unless the drive is less than 1/2 hr. 

No socks though. Those stay in the bag. I carry 2 pairs of socks. Change into dry socks after lunch  

I actually prefer to change in the lodge. But if the walk to the lodge is long, I'd trade changing in the car to avoid having to shoulder all the extra clothing.

I HATE booting up in the car. I just hate it. My boots are rather hard to get into. Trying to get them on in the car is just a struggle, one which I'd rather not endure unless absolutely necessary.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I got a 15 minute limit. Less than 15 mins everything but my right boot is on in the room. More than 15 minutes and my balls start to sweat, it is shorts in the car and full change in the lodge. I hated changing and booting up in the car after longer drives. With the exception of SR, everywhere I have skied this year has allowed boot bags, I just left my bag outside on the deck at sr.
> 
> Never considered putting on ski socks at the mountain, guess I have never had cold feet?
> 
> The one I never understood is people that put their contacts in at the mountain.


Fwiw-I only wear contacts for skiing but I can’t read with them in and I get an adverse reaction to wearing them extended periods.  I put them on at home but often take them out in the lodge As soon as I’m done skiing.  I can totally understand why someone would wait to put them in at the mountain.


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 22, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm short and small. And my car has a one-touch power seat. So I change in the car unless the drive is less than 1/2 hr.
> 
> No socks though. Those stay in the bag. I carry 2 pairs of socks. Change into dry socks after lunch
> 
> ...


My wife has been doing the 2 socks a day thing for the last 5 seasons or so.  I gotta say, it makes a lot of sense to put on a dry pair of socks midway through the day.  I’m too lazy to do it but my feet sweat profusely and I probably should.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 22, 2021)

I just spray the hell out of my feet with that arm and hammer powder stuff and I'm good. Maybe I'll try changing into dry ski socks tomorrow in the lot to see if its a game changer


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## abc (Dec 22, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I’m too lazy to do it but my feet sweat profusely and I probably should.


Beyond "should". It feels luxurious to put on dry socks after lunch!

Reminds me I may also ask Santa for more socks.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I just spray the hell out of my feet with that arm and hammer powder stuff and I'm good. Maybe I'll try changing into dry ski socks tomorrow in the lot to see if its a game changer



Last minute chef powder life 

Cornstarch in the employee Jon too if you know what I'm saying


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## snoseek (Dec 22, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Last minute chef powder life
> 
> Cornstarch in the employee Jon too if you know what I'm saying


I keep a bottle of the blue gold bond in my locker. Its ummm refreshing!


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Yup.
> 
> My ski socks almost always travel to the ski area I am driving to loosely in the cuff area of my boots with an open hand warmer packet in my boot. That way I am changing into warm, dry socks which then go into a warm boot


Never tried the hand warmer trick but I like it already!


----------



## drjeff (Dec 22, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Never tried the hand warmer trick but I like it already!


Just make sure you remember to take the hand warmer OUT of your boot before putting your foot in!! 

Made that mistake once while rushing around the base lodge at Stratton trying to get my kid all geared up and out the door with the rest of her race team...

Was wondering why my boot felt funny for a couple of runs until it dawned on me what I did, and then got to slip my foot out of my boot during a snow squall at the bottom of the race hill while waiting for my kid to take her first run of that race! 

Incredibly enough my hand warmer had ended up totally flat on top of my foot just behind my toes and with my fairly packed out boot at that time it wasn't massively noticeable!!


----------



## 1dog (Dec 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I keep a bottle of the blue gold bond in my locker. Its ummm refreshing!


gonna try baking powder or Gold Bond - chili pepper on toes draws blood thru small capillaries - too many frost bite winter camping and skiing insidencesthru the years. . . . it does, however, burn like fire in a hot tub after - at least when we used to use chlorine - now Nat Spa takes care of that issue- no burn.


----------



## skiur (Dec 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Does anyone here just drive to the ski area in their ski pants and base layer and just boot up in the lot?



I boot up in my kitchen then drive to the mountain.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 23, 2021)

abc said:


> Second that.
> 
> No longer have to dig through the mountain of bags others pile on top to fish mine out from the bottom.
> 
> More tidy lodge too.





1dog said:


> gonna try baking powder or Gold Bond - *chili pepper on toes draws blood thru small capillaries *- too many frost bite winter camping and skiing insidencesthru the years. . . . it does, however, burn like fire in a hot tub after - at least when we used to use chlorine - now Nat Spa takes care of that issue- no burn.


That's an ol' school patroller trick.
  - sprinkle approx 1/2 teaspoon *crushed cayenne pepper* in each sock's toe area


----------



## machski (Dec 23, 2021)

I woud love to know why when I'm trying to look at Sunapee's webcam I have to watch an add for Sunapee first.  After all, I did navigate to the website already so pretty sure I know about Sunapee.  Trying to sugarcoat the real situation with footage of primo days.  BTW: webcam shows no snowmaking still into SunBowl.  Going to be a fun week during the holiday without a run or 2 back there and that HSQ.

On a positive note, while not opening until the day after Christmas, Crotched sounds like they will be opening with multiple runs and lifts on Sunday.  They actually have the anticipated lineup spelled out on their current conditions report!!  Why can't Sunapee spell out a plan to its guests??


----------



## sugarbushskier (Dec 23, 2021)

When I day trip to areas such as MS, Stratton or Okemo which are all a 2+ hour drive, I usually put my base layer and ski pants on for the drive, but change into my ski socks either in the lodge (if allowed) or at the car so my feet are dry and any sweat during the drive is eliminated.  

I swear by the Dry Guy boot heaters/dryers and have one at home to dry out boots after skiing AND have the 12v one for the car which I place in my boots and plug into the cig lighter adapter for the drive up.  It gently warms my boots so with fresh ski socks and warm boots, it's quick, easy and comfortable.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 23, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> PA/NH skiers really getting the shaft under Vail.


PA isn't that bad.  Its the loss of some of the "cheaper" pass options that I worry about bringing people to the sport.  They reduced night skiing on 2 nights where they generated basically no revenue.  Sure its a bean counter move, but



abc said:


> If I have to say so, people who choose to live away from snow and mountain have other priorities. Beggars can't be choosers. It's not like they have a vast options to choose from before Vail came in.
> 
> So it's either put up with whatever Vail provides and make the most of it. Or they can just ski out west like all Floridians and Texans! By not buying a Vail Epic pass, they give up local skiing. If it's so crappy, it may not be such a huge lose. What they gain is the freedom to ski anywhere when they go out west. Taos? Jackson? A-basin? Wolf Creek??? Are those not worth giving up PA local skiing every other year?



People have to live where they live.  Not everyone can move to closer to the snow or better mountains.  You are correct I buy the vail pass and use the shit out of it.  That doesn't mean I can't complain about it.  There is skiing 4 miles from where I type this, well not yet this year because of the weather, so I'd say I'm actually doing quite well with being by the snow.   I typically travel rather extensively to VT and out west.  

So the answer is no, it is not worth giving up local skiing to only ski out west.  That actually sounds completely ridiculous the more I read it it.  My answer, is I'll buy an Epic and an Ikon.  Sure now I'm a slave to 2 ski corporations, but at least it covers a lot of bases.   And yes the fact that I'm even discussing the purchase of 2 megapasses is EXACTLY what is wrong with the megapass model.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That's an ol' school patroller trick.
> - sprinkle approx 1/2 teaspoon *crushed cayenne pepper* in each sock's toe area


yes,  thx,  it is specifically crushed cayenne pepper. works!


----------



## gittist (Dec 23, 2021)

When we retired we planned on moving BACK to either Maine or New Hampshire and I was thrilled when Vail bought Peak Resorts. Not only is there 3 places withing 1.5 hours or where we currently live in PA but I could go back to skiing at Wildcat (and other Vail properties in the New England area) when we moved back to the area.  That plan seems to be going down the crapper more and more :-(. 

We were supposed to ski WIldcat on the way back from Maine early in December but went to Plan B which was Killington. I'm glad we did. 

Some people are thrilled with using the car as a base lodge, reservations for eating, no one allowed in the lodges etc...but we're not.  

We go to whatever area is pretty close to pre-covid normal since we don't ski weekends or holidays. Guess I wasted money on this year's EPIC pass.

I'm sure whomever does the statistics for Vail will somehow cook the books next year even if there's a big drop in EPIC passes to show how many more they sold for 2023.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> My answer, is I'll buy an Epic and an Ikon.  Sure now I'm a slave to 2 ski corporations, but at least it covers a lot of bases.   And yes the fact that I'm even discussing the purchase of 2 megapasses is EXACTLY what is wrong with the megapass model.


Epic+Indy or Epic+Ski3+WNEP would get you just as many northern areas along with several somewhat local day trip options and would be cheaper, although the Ikon places in New England definitely seem to be a bit classier

And yeah, I'm also not moving away from PA, I'll switch to roller skiing before I do that.  Although a cabin in NY would be nice


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That's an ol' school patroller trick.
> - sprinkle approx 1/2 teaspoon *crushed cayenne pepper* in each sock's toe area


That’s awesome, I gotta try that.


----------



## abc (Dec 23, 2021)

gittist said:


> I'm sure whomever does the statistics for Vail will somehow cook the books next year even if there's a big drop in EPIC passes to show how many more they sold for 2023.


They already did for the 2021/22 season. They counted the Epic Day pass as part of their "increase".


----------



## drjeff (Dec 23, 2021)

abc said:


> They already did for the 2021/22 season. They counted the Epic Day pass as part of their "increase".



Can almost guarentee that after some folks looking for day tickets next week at some EPIC properties find out that they're sold out for the day, because they werern't aware of this new policy of limting day tickets during peak holiday times, that that will sell some new EPIC pass products next season to avoid being blacked out next year

Now will that offset the likely loss of EPIC pass sales from others for whom their operations and management decisions this season will have them not renewing their EPIC pass next season?  I guess that only time will tell


----------



## Edd (Dec 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Now will that offset the likely loss of EPIC pass sales from others for whom their operations and management decisions this season will have them not renewing their EPIC pass next season?  I guess that only time will tell


The NH skiers won't matter most likely.  The Hunter situation confuses me because my perception is that it's normally a busy mountain, with plenty of regulars to alienate.  Same with Sunapee to a lesser extent, I guess.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 23, 2021)

Can someone more familiar with attitash explain if it's even possible to ski upper and lower cathedral without the quad? Is there a customer from Northwest passage? They have them listed as open but I don't see how you would get there


----------



## Mainer (Dec 23, 2021)

You duck the first rope off of northwest passage and skate. The second crossing that’s actually open is all up hill


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## snoseek (Dec 23, 2021)

Mainer said:


> You duck the first rope off of northwest passage and skate. The second crossing that’s actually open is all up hill


I bet it's skiing damn good but what a waste not running the quad. You can't blame that on labor as they'll be running bear next. I hate how everyone always runs attitash bare bones. Super underrated hill with big potential.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2021)




----------



## Mainer (Dec 23, 2021)

I would’ve taken my little ones skiing today but wildcat was on windhold and attitash with just the triple kinda sucks. The learning center isn’t worth driving there for. If the quad was open I would have


----------



## Quietman (Dec 23, 2021)

Thursday at 12:50


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I would’ve taken my little ones skiing today but wildcat was on windhold and attitash with just the triple kinda sucks. The learning center isn’t worth driving there for. If the quad was open I would have



Not running the Yankee every day of the season they can is unacceptable.

And if the lifts are on wind hold at Cat, send the lifties to Attitash to help.  They got no problem sharing snowmaking staff.  Share the lifties too


----------



## Mainer (Dec 23, 2021)

I wonder if the snow makers actually did quite a wild cat. Because I don’t see any guns going


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## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2021)

Quietman said:


> Thursday at 12:50
> 
> View attachment 52465


Thanks! Is polecat groomed? Also no snowmaking?!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2021)

Wear it all..boot up in the car..
Stowe mideeek i can go in the lodge though...


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 23, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> That's gonna be a shit show, opening on one of the busiest days of the season with lots of passes blacked out down the street in VT. Hard pass.


I'm going to go but waiting until the week after Christmas, hopefully the mid week days wont be bad. looks like they will have about 2/3 of their trails open.

Meanwhile sunapee has "8" trails which equal 2 TTB runs....WTF.......probably be there at some point next week as just to see what's up and how far they are from opening more trials. 

I also going to hit Okemo next Thursday most likely. pray for me...any advice? where to park? I've heard its easier to park at jackson gore...


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 23, 2021)

machski said:


> I woud love to know why when I'm trying to look at Sunapee's webcam I have to watch an add for Sunapee first.  After all, I did navigate to the website already so pretty sure I know about Sunapee.  Trying to sugarcoat the real situation with footage of primo days.  BTW: webcam shows no snowmaking still into SunBowl.  Going to be a fun week during the holiday without a run or 2 back there and that HSQ.
> 
> On a positive note, while not opening until the day after Christmas, Crotched sounds like they will be opening with multiple runs and lifts on Sunday.  They actually have the anticipated lineup spelled out on their current conditions report!!  Why can't Sunapee spell out a plan to its guests??


Im not sure they have a plan.....


----------



## snoseek (Dec 23, 2021)

Sunapee will open the back and south for the novices in the coming days but it won't be enough to spread people. No way I would set foot on that mtn next week. Crotched might be ok...would help if they could spread the volume into the evening...not sure the logic there besides saving money.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the solution is pretty simple.  Offer a free baggage storage area away from the dining areas in lodges with good signage.   Build the cost into the passes.  Don't nickel and dime people.


Right.  How much does it cost to put some cubbyholes outside?  Act like you want our business.  Boyne and SR did not while BW did.  They have both the cubbyholes outside for free and the rental ones inside.  Not to mention the snow is 10x nicer at BW than SR.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 23, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I also going to hit Okemo next Thursday most likely. pray for me...any advice? where to park? I've heard its easier to park at jackson gore...


If you park at Jackson Gore, get away from that base area as early as possible.  You need to take at least two lifts to get out of there, hoards of people come over there and there are no alternative lifts.  I'm talking like 30min+ lift lines over there x2
I would stick to Soliditude, the south side, and upper mountain as much as possible.  If you go to the main base you might be able to hoof it uphill to avoid an extra ride on those stupid doubles or whatever they have down there

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a regular okemo skier but I had a pretty bad President's day experience there years ago and I imagine it's only worse now with Epic


----------



## urungus (Dec 23, 2021)

PAabe said:


> If you park at Jackson Gore, get away from that base area as early as possible.  You need to take at least two lifts to get out of there, hoards of people come over there and there are no alternative lifts.  I'm talking like 30min+ lift lines over there x2
> I would stick to Soliditude, the south side, and upper mountain as much as possible.  If you go to the main base you might be able to hoof it uphill to avoid an extra ride on those stupid doubles or whatever they have down there
> 
> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a regular okemo skier but I had a pretty bad President's day experience there years ago and I imagine it's only worse now with Epic


I’ve never experienced lines like that at Jackson Gore, granted I’ve never been over a holiday weekend.  They did upgrade the main “Quantum” chairlift over there from a quad to a 6-pack over the summer which should help.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 23, 2021)

urungus said:


> I’ve never experienced lines like that at Jackson Gore, granted I’ve never been over a holiday weekend.  They did upgrade the main “Quantum” chairlift over there from a quad to a 6-pack over the summer which should help.


6 pack sounds like it would be a big help, maybe I had an unusual experience there but we were also very surprised to find the lines so long there! In hindsight we definitely regretted heading to the north rather than south side where there had been no lines and better snow all day


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 23, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Sunapee will open the back and south for the novices in the coming days but it won't be enough to spread people. No way I would set foot on that mtn next week. Crotched might be ok...would help if they could spread the volume into the evening...not sure the logic there besides saving money.


our kids are doing the development group at Sunapee for the first time this year. Meant to have a “ski off trial” on 2nd Jan to put them in groups - meant to start on the as yet unopened south beginning area.  The race groups supposedly started in Mid December. Not sure where they are all skiing, much less doing any serious training.  Such a shame, it’s been our favorite for the past couple years but may need a change of strategy next year.
They have to get some beginners terrain open for the holiday week.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 23, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> our kids are doing the development group at Sunapee for the first time this year. Meant to have a “ski off trial” on 2nd Jan to put them in groups - meant to start on the as yet unopened south beginning area.  The race groups supposedly started in Mid December. Not sure where they are all skiing, much less doing any serious training.  Such a shame, it’s been our favorite for the past couple years but may need a change of strategy next year.
> They have to get some beginners terrain open for the holiday week.


Race groups were clogging up the 2 and a quarter open trails when I was there last week. Not ideal by any means.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 24, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I'm going to go but waiting until the week after Christmas, hopefully the mid week days wont be bad. looks like they will have about 2/3 of their trails open.
> 
> Meanwhile sunapee has "8" trails which equal 2 TTB runs....WTF.......probably be there at some point next week as just to see what's up and how far they are from opening more trials.
> 
> I also going to hit Okemo next Thursday most likely. pray for me...any advice? where to park? I've heard its easier to park at jackson gore...


After almost 50 years of Killington season passes, the lousy snowmaking elsewhere baffles me.  Killington has the mountain up to skyeship stage 2 open and Bear about to come on line.  Sunday River usually does a good job.  How can somewhere mostly intermediate like Okemo and Mount Snow that can get trails open after a dusting not have much of the mountain open?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 24, 2021)

Geoff said:


> After almost 50 years of Killington season passes, the lousy snowmaking elsewhere baffles me.  Killington has the mountain up to skyeship stage 2 open and Bear about to come on line.  Sunday River usually does a good job.  How can somewhere mostly intermediate like Okemo and Mount Snow that can get trails open after a dusting not have much of the mountain open?


Even Cannon has a large amount of their terrain open.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 24, 2021)

Wildcat = 1 trail for Christmas week. No quad. No snow makers. Hopefully the new gm can make a good burger because he sucks at running a resort. Might as well of flushed that $1300 (family passes) down the toilet. Merry Christmas, thank little baby Jesus for the chamber pass


----------



## skimagic (Dec 24, 2021)

urungus said:


> I’ve never experienced lines like that at Jackson Gore, granted I’ve never been over a holiday weekend.  They did upgrade the main “Quantum” chairlift over there from a quad to a 6-pack over the summer which should help.


 Every time I venture over to JacksGore, I end up thinking it's a waste of time.  The trails flatten out quickly and the few natural snow  trails never have much cover.  Are the two long glade runs  over there  any good?, I'm stump adverse.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 24, 2021)

skimagic said:


> Every time I venture over to JacksGore, I end up thinking it's a waste of time.  The trails flatten out quickly and the few natural snow  trails never have much cover.  Are the two long glade runs  over there  any good?, I'm stump adverse.



No they're not that good of glades.  Something a lot of people don't realize about Okemo is that the summit is wayyyyyyy lower than any other major VT mountain.  It tops out around 3,300 feet.  Jackson Gore's summit .... only 2,700 feet.  So the glades/trails there do not hold snow well at all.  For reference, the K1 base lodge is about 2,400 feet.  Stratton's BASE...right around 2,000ft.


----------



## kendo (Dec 24, 2021)

Geoff said:


> After almost 50 years of Killington season passes, the lousy snowmaking elsewhere baffles me.  Killington has the mountain up to skyeship stage 2 open and Bear about to come on line.  Sunday River usually does a good job.  How can somewhere mostly intermediate like Okemo and Mount Snow that can get trails open after a dusting not have much of the mountain open?




Labor shortage + Cost management as noted here last March...


Doubt snowmaking will improve significantly going forward.

Not when Katz reports on his recent investors call ... _While the company’s business has declined, the company still has plenty of liquid assets, including $1.4 billion in cash on hand. Katz attributed the company’s financial position to both guest loyalty and a “*thoughtful, disciplined approach to expenses*.”_

Snowmaking = expense. A lot of snowmaking = *undisciplined expenses*. If they were 'thoughtful' about their eastern resorts, they'd at least add a snowmaking icon to their trail report templates.


Let's hope for snow. .  . soon and often!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> No they're not that good of glades.  Something a lot of people don't realize about Okemo is that the summit is wayyyyyyy lower than any other major VT mountain.  It tops out around 3,300 feet.  Jackson Gore's summit .... only 2,700 feet.  So the glades/trails there do not hold snow well at all.  For reference, the K1 base lodge is about 2,400 feet.  Stratton's BASE...right around 2,000ft.



This is certainly true, but the terrain itself is pretty fun, low angle trees when they have the snow.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 24, 2021)

Okemo can be fun. Hell skiing is just fun. Do I prefer more challenge yep.  But my wife loves Okemo so I gladly go there and have fun


----------



## machski (Dec 24, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Right.  How much does it cost to put some cubbyholes outside?  Act like you want our business.  Boyne and SR did not while BW did.  They have both the cubbyholes outside for free and the rental ones inside.  Not to mention the snow is 10x nicer at BW than SR.


Your post doesn't make sense.  SR did but cubby's outside both Barker and South Ridge.  Easier to maintain a snow surface on lesser pitched slopes that BW has, but 10x better is a stretch to any imagination.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 24, 2021)

Just got word that my Vail owned property is opening Monday. Impressive with 3 nights of snowmaking.  Will say that i haven't seen a lack of aggressive snowmaking at Roundtop since Vail has bought them. They don't have a choice and thankfully their system is strong.

Only Complaint I have is there is clearly enough snow now so not sure why they are waiting until Monday...


----------



## abc (Dec 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> there is clearly enough snow now so not sure why they are waiting until Monday...


So those who have blackout passes can't ski today?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 24, 2021)

They aren't opening for anyone until Monday.  There is no blackout for Roundtop


----------



## drjeff (Dec 24, 2021)

Geoff said:


> After almost 50 years of Killington season passes, the lousy snowmaking elsewhere baffles me.  Killington has the mountain up to skyeship stage 2 open and Bear about to come on line.  Sunday River usually does a good job.  How can somewhere mostly intermediate like Okemo and Mount Snow that can get trails open after a dusting not have much of the mountain open?



Speaking purely on what I have seen this season to date at Mount Snow. 

They seem to be taking an extra day or 2 over past seasons, to open up snowmaking terrain this year, and that seems to be because they're putting MORE snow on each trail prior to opening than they have in the past. 

Will that translate in less subsequent snowmaking runs in the coming weeks for base augmentation? Guess we'll find out.

That being said, going into Christmas Week on what has been a less than ideal snowmaking season this year, when they finish up the trails they're running on now, short of Ripcord, South Bowl and the 1/2 pipe if I am not mistaken they'll have all their snowmaking terrain covered which certainly isn't a below average snowmaking effort for Mount Snow.

What Mount Snow suffers from until they put snowmaking on more trails, is that while they can cover a good percentage of their terrain with respect to total acres, the acres they don't have snowmaking on make up a fair amount of their total trail count


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 24, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Wildcat = 1 trail for Christmas week. No quad. No snow makers. Hopefully the new gm can make a good burger because he sucks at running a resort. Might as well of flushed that $1300 (family passes) down the toilet. Merry Christmas, thank little baby Jesus for the chamber pass


I’m w/ you on that.
  WC has 1 3 man snowmaking crew. But 3-4 people standing behind the food counter doing nothing today around lunch hour.  Glad our Food & Bev GM is on top of things….
Total VAIL FAIL 2021


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 24, 2021)

Theres profit to be made on shitty burgers, people already bought their epic pass so they’re s.o.l for snowmaking


----------



## snoseek (Dec 24, 2021)

Sunbowl opened at sunapee and snowmaking is happening. Probably too little too late. The blackout people are coming next week shits gonna get real


----------



## PAabe (Dec 24, 2021)

Gore will have all lifts except hudson and maybe burnt ridge (and almost all blue runs) open for Christmas so, as is the case with Cannon, yet another state-operated area blowing away a certain competitor


----------



## PAabe (Dec 24, 2021)

Fun? fact we have hit 200 pages of all the ways Vail Sucks

In other news Ski Roundtop updated their trail map:

Park moved from Fife and Drum (it has also been on Recruit before I think) to Susquehannah which people are complaining about but I guess it is good they have parks planned in any case.  Tree hits off Lafayette's leap are now an official glade, allegedly they are planning on blowing snow into there which would be pretty cool if they did instead of relying on the leftovers from the surrounding trails


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 24, 2021)

They took the single handed best intermediate slope on the hill and turned it into a park.

The general manager is an idiot for green lighting this and I will be telling him that hopefully on Monday


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 24, 2021)

kendo said:


> Labor shortage + Cost management as noted here last March...
> 
> 
> Doubt snowmaking will improve significantly going forward.
> ...


Honestly they will probably have their best season ever: no snowmaking expenses, no staff expenses, less lift running, less shuttles running, shorter season and less operating days on both ends, expensive food etc, everyone buys Epic passes... I know friends that complain all day long about Epic... yet they continue to buy.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 24, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They took the single handed best intermediate slope on the hill and turned it into a park.
> 
> The general manager is an idiot for green lighting this and I will be telling him that hopefully on Monday


Agreed I do not get why they wouldn't just put the park on Recruit which is thoroughly uninteresting otherwise instead of on the most interesting cruiser in the whole area

Also recruit is accessible from all 3 main lifts while Susquehanna, unlike the other parks, only dumps out on the east side which I would think would be annoying for people hitting the park repeatedly

As for fife and drum park, that would also be advantageous because you can hit bunker Hill > fife and drum together which now you cannot.  Also they have underutilized the fife and drum lift now without the park traffic and boarders will likely not enjoy lapping Ramrod>Susquehanna or maybe even exhibition due to the required flat traverses


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 24, 2021)

machski said:


> Your post doesn't make sense.  SR did but cubby's outside both Barker and South Ridge.  Easier to maintain a snow surface on lesser pitched slopes that BW has, but 10x better is a stretch to any imagination.


Last year at SR was a shit show.  We had enough of :

Walking through dirt parking lots in ski boots. 
Upon arrival you get to be constantly harangued by Mainer's telling me to "Pull my mask up" if God forbid it slipped under my nose. 
*No bag storage at all last year. *
*This made warm days fun wearing the mask up to the eyballs as Nazi ski patrollers watched long lift lines.  Want to drop a layer?  Hike to the truck and back. *
The waiting in very long lift lines, on warm days desperate to get on a lift, sweating through the mask, watching a 20 something after 20 something get on the middle seat of a 6 pack for the solo ride up to "feel safe".
What made me want to scream was realizing they paid half price for their Nitro pass.
Watching 20 something extreme morons do insanely fast runs, blind jumps and nearly kill my wife on Escapade.
Being from MA and made to feel like a criminal for going to my second home in Maine.
Hearing that Maine actually proposed a 2nd tax on vacation homes shows the deep seated resentment Mainers have for other states, particularly MA.
Driving from 95 to SR through shithole rural blight towns, abandoned homes litter what should be valuable real estate.
The funny thing is some of these Mainers have more tattoos than teeth and common sense put together.  I think we have had enough of Maine.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 24, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Last year at SR was a shit show.  We had enough of :
> 
> Walking through dirt parking lots in ski boots.
> Upon arrival you get to be constantly harangued by Mainer's telling me to "Pull my mask up" if God forbid it slipped under my nose.
> ...


You’re a douche! Merry Christmas!


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> You’re a douche! Merry Christmas!


Merry Christmas to you,  princes of Maine, you kings of the New England pot shop industry!
​the pot shops


----------



## machski (Dec 24, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Last year at SR was a shit show.  We had enough of :
> 
> Walking through dirt parking lots in ski boots.
> Upon arrival you get to be constantly harangued by Mainer's telling me to "Pull my mask up" if God forbid it slipped under my nose.
> ...


Most of the places I went this was the norm LAST year.  Even Bachelor late April was similar experience.  If you found a hideout from the BS last season, good on you.  SR has been better this seaon, but still blocking bags from being left in the lodges (as I said, South Ridge and Barker have outside cubby storage, WC had not yet maybe will get some). but you can bring in to boot up/change.  Mask usage is vastly reduced, lifts can load full but hearing lift ops is not forcing the issue, especially on Chondi cabins.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 24, 2021)

lol. Ok boomer.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Dec 24, 2021)

Attitash just announced on FB that they will be running the triple, flying bear, learning center and snow belt for a Christmas break. 

Once a family mountain - their lift accessible terrain is for high intermediate or super beginner. They forgot about the people in the middle. 

This is going to force folks who don’t belong up top.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 24, 2021)

machski said:


> Most of the places I went this was the norm LAST year.  Even Bachelor late April was similar experience.  If you found a hideout from the BS last season, good on you.  SR has been better this seaon, but still blocking bags from being left in the lodges (as I said, South Ridge and Barker have outside cubby storage, WC had not yet maybe will get some). but you can bring in to boot up/change.  Mask usage is vastly reduced, lifts can load full but hearing lift ops is not forcing the issue, especially on Chondi cabins.


Glad to hear it's gotten better.  After last year we switched to the White mountain superpass.  
No lift lines at all at BW and also get first tracks 30 minutes early for a little extra $.  BW is an older more mature crowd.   Nice not having wind holds affect so many ski days as SR had many wind hold, lost days and also lift breakdowns.   SR is kinda run down from what it once was.   Add that to the less than 100 inch snow seasons and it was time to get out.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 25, 2021)

Looks like broomfield made a copy/paste social media post for wildcat/attitash/Steven's pass that really gave no explanation other than the old covid excuse. The comment sections are gold...particularly the Steven's pass ones


----------



## machski (Dec 25, 2021)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Glad to hear it's gotten better.  After last year we switched to the White mountain superpass.
> No lift lines at all at BW and also get first tracks 30 minutes early for a little extra $.  BW is an older more mature crowd.   Nice not having wind holds affect so many ski days as SR had many wind hold, lost days and also lift breakdowns.   SR is kinda run down from what it once was.   Add that to the less than 100 inch snow seasons and it was time to get out.


That is an advantage to BW currently, it more recently hit it's big expansion and kept getting investments so key lift infrastructure is one of the youngest around.  SR was that way, 25 years ago.  If Boyne actually puts it's plans into full action, SR will get back to where it needs to be.  I will say this, Boyne's priority in upgrades is spot on in the HUGE investments it is has been and continues to make modernizing the snowmaking system.  New, fancier lifts are nice (especially to replace maintenance heavy mongoloid lifts) but without a good snow product, who cares.


----------



## RichT (Dec 25, 2021)

machski said:


> That is an advantage to BW currently, it more recently hit it's big expansion and kept getting investments so key lift infrastructure is one of the youngest around.  SR was that way, 25 years ago.  If Boyne actually puts it's plans into full action, SR will get back to where it needs to be.  I will say this, Boyne's priority in upgrades is spot on in the HUGE investments it is has been and continues to make modernizing the snowmaking system.  New, fancier lifts are nice (especially to replace maintenance heavy mongoloid lifts) but without a good snow product, who cares.


BW????? = Bretten Woods??


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## Edd (Dec 25, 2021)

RichT said:


> BW????? = Bretten Woods??


Yes


----------



## thebigo (Dec 25, 2021)

Per snow report, bretton woods currently has 126 acres open. Sunday river has 362 acres open. 

Loon, which I would consider a more direct competitor to bretton woods, has 201 acres open. South peak should increase the number significantly tomorrow.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 25, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Gore will have all lifts except hudson and maybe burnt ridge (and almost all blue runs) open for Christmas so, as is the case with Cannon, yet another state-operated area blowing away a certain competitor


Will be at Gore next week for first time this season.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> This is certainly true, but the terrain itself is pretty fun, low angle trees when they have the snow.


Plus the clientele there prefer groomed runs so powder can remain untouched for days.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 25, 2021)

Vail already has a job posing for new GM at Seven Springs and other 2 areas there. That didn’t take long….


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Looks like broomfield made a copy/paste social media post for wildcat/attitash/Steven's pass that really gave no explanation other than the old covid excuse. The comment sections are gold...particularly the Steven's pass ones


Can you post anything for those of us without social media?! Thanks! Merry Christmas to all!


----------



## RichT (Dec 25, 2021)

I wish Hunter would get rid of their GM!


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 25, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Can you post anything for those of us without social media?! Thanks! Merry Christmas to all!











						Wildcat Mountain Corporate on Instagram: "Merry Christmas from your favorite #vailresorts corporate stooge! - - I hope that (insert name here) knows how much (resort name here ) truly cares about their guest experience. (Generalized pfaff about the ‘
					

Wildcat Mountain Corporate shared a post on Instagram: "Merry Christmas from your favorite #vailresorts corporate stooge! - - I hope that (insert name here) knows how much (resort name here ) truly cares about their guest experience. (Generalized pfaff about the ‘rona and guest issues) - we...




					www.instagram.com


----------



## gittist (Dec 25, 2021)

?: Who doesn't hate Vail Resorts?

A: There's a good possibility a lot of the non-Vail ski areas b/c skiers that are unhappy with Vail are skiing somewhere else. Oh, and BTW, all of the food service people at WC who are getting paid to not do much whilst the snow gun are...oh, I guess it might be the snow gun person, or two?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 25, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Can you post anything for those of us without social media?! Thanks! Merry Christmas to all!


Dear Wildcat guests, 

Before I jump into lift and terrain updates for the coming weeks (for which I know we are all eager!), I wanted to first say thank you. Thank you to you, our guests, and to our incredible Wildcat team members on the ground.  

I know that this has been a challenging start to the season and we hear your feedback that you wish more terrain was open. Trust us, we do too. I wanted to take a moment to give you some more insight as to why that is. It is no secret that we, like so many others in the travel and leisure industry, are facing a staffing shortage that is creating challenges for certain departments at Wildcat. This is in addition to the continuous impacts of COVID-19 and the Omicron variant, all while working through our busiest time of year when demand for outdoor experiences is higher than ever.  

If you’ve had the chance to visit our resort already this season, you’ll have seen firsthand how hard our team has been working to provide you with a great experience. Without much help from Mother Nature, our team has been working hard to make snow, run lifts and keep you all safe – all with a smile on their faces.  

So, as you plan for your holiday skiing and riding, we want to share an update on which lifts are open this week so you can plan accordingly. Beginning this Saturday, we’re planning to operate the Snowcat, Tomcat and Snowbelt lifts daily. Unfortunately, summit access is still not available but we will continue to reevaluate lift schedules and provide an update as soon as possible. Up-to-the-minute details are always available on SkiWildcat.com. 

Our amazing team remains focused on delivering the best possible on-mountain experience for our guests and keeping guest safety as our top priority.    

We are grateful for your patience – and understanding – and we look forward to seeing you on the slopes soon. 

All the very best,
JD Crichton
General Manager, Wildcat


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Dear Wildcat guests,
> 
> Before I jump into lift and terrain updates for the coming weeks (for which I know we are all eager!), I wanted to first say thank you. Thank you to you, our guests, and to our incredible Wildcat team members on the ground.
> 
> ...


That explains nothing


----------



## Mainer (Dec 25, 2021)

If wildcat would bump up pay for snowmakers to $20,  I’m sure they could find and retain people. There is only 3 of them it would cost an extra $600 a week. Big fucking deal. 
   That letter should at least explain if the lift or the snowmaking is broken. I feel bad for the few people working at wc/attitash this upcoming week, they are going to be harassed hard.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 25, 2021)

Yup. And many will quit making things worse as the season goes on.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> That explains nothing


I think that was the point


----------



## sugarbushskier (Dec 25, 2021)

Complete BS communication.....


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 25, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Looks like broomfield made a copy/paste social media post for wildcat/attitash/Steven's pass that really gave no explanation other than the old covid excuse. The comment sections are gold...particularly the Steven's pass ones


This is a new low. Even the "we know we suck" message is corporate speak from Broomfield, and they forced the local GM's to sign it. Epic.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 25, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Vail already has a job posing for new GM at Seven Springs and other 2 areas there. That didn’t take long….


That is super shitty

My parents neighbor is the Head of IT there I'm certain he's going to get the ax...


----------



## FBGM (Dec 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That is super shitty
> 
> My parents neighbor is the Head of IT there I'm certain he's going to get the ax...


When they took over PC they kept a few IT around but not all. Some quit, they knew what was coming. I think there was only 3 total IT after all said and done from PC/Canyons together. Most IT Is run from some central location. 

Which, I hate to say it, I agree with. Sub out IT or have it central. You are a ski business, not IT business.  (I did the same in other industries, sub out most IT)


----------



## abc (Dec 25, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Which, I hate to say it, I agree with. Sub out IT or have it central. You are a ski business, not IT business. (I did the same in other industries, sub out most IT)


Not just IT. Other peripheral services will (and should) centralized too, payroll for example.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Dec 25, 2021)

FBGM said:


> When they took over PC they kept a few IT around but not all. Some quit, they knew what was coming. I think there was only 3 total IT after all said and done from PC/Canyons together. Most IT Is run from some central location.
> 
> Which, I hate to say it, I agree with. Sub out IT or have it central. You are a ski business, not IT business.  (I did the same in other industries, sub out most IT)


Vail is doing exactly that. They are a “financial” business and not a “ski business” so they value profits over product and experience. 

Snow making and lift service is at reduced levels to cut costs. 

Penny wise and pound foolish. Short term win. Long term failure.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Per snow report, bretton woods currently has 126 acres open. Sunday river has 362 acres open.
> 
> Loon, which I would consider a more direct competitor to bretton woods, has 201 acres open. South peak should increase the number significantly tomorrow.


SR/ Boyne needs every acre open to handle the massive # of people they put on the hill from the NE pass and the IKON passholders.  Weekends are a shitshow.  BW is nearly empty.  Groomer tracks last past lunch where the get obliterated at Loon/SR in 1 hour.


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## FBGM (Dec 25, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Vail is doing exactly that. They are a “financial” business and not a “ski business” so they value profits over product and experience.
> 
> Snow making and lift service is at reduced levels to cut costs.
> 
> Penny wise and pound foolish. Short term win. Long term failure.


All the lift/grooming/snowmaking/kitchen service staff is not cut to reduce cost, it’s cut due to the fact there is a massive employee shortage. They would have all those departments 100% full if they could. 

As mentioned above, centralized or outsourced stuff like IT/Payroll/Marketing is their cost cutting method.


----------



## RichT (Dec 25, 2021)

I've been beating up on Hunter (well deserved), and been watching the Wildcat/Attitash fiasco. But I stumbled on Stevens Pass's Facebook site OMG, the place is beautiful, they're less open percentage wise then Hunter is and people are up in arms! The more shit I research the worse it gets........said.


----------



## machski (Dec 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Dear Wildcat guests,
> 
> Before I jump into lift and terrain updates for the coming weeks (for which I know we are all eager!), I wanted to first say thank you. Thank you to you, our guests, and to our incredible Wildcat team members on the ground.
> 
> ...


Holy shit, Vail even uses form letters for these communications!!  Look at this one from Stevens Pass:


Hello, Stevens Pass Community,

I’m reaching out with a personal message. I know things have been frustrating since our opening last week. The truth is, we’re dealing with a lot of difficult challenges right now, including the staffing shortages facing everyone in the travel + leisure industry. For us, that has impacted our ability to open the mountain the way we know we can, and want to – and I want to apologize to our guests for how that has affected your recent experience.

Stevens Pass is run by people who are deeply passionate about what this mountain has to offer, and I want to thank our team who has been working tirelessly, not only to prepare our mountain for opening, but also to keep it running. They’ve been working so hard, without complaint, in the face of these staffing challenges which are also coming up against our busiest time of year and new dynamics presented by the Omicron variant.  

I also want to thank all of our guests, who share that deep love + passion for this beautiful place. It's important to recognize that many of you feel a sense of disappointment, and I want to assure you we are working hard to resolve these issues. It’s frustrating for us, too. We’re dealing with challenges one day at a time, and that means focusing our staff where we can maximize our operations while keeping guest safety as our top priority.  

Here’s what this means for right now – please keep in mind things are dynamic. Our goal is to expand our offerings as quickly as possible:  

❄Skyline Express, Brooks Express, Hogsback Express, 7th Heaven, and Daisy are our open chairs; the backside of the mountain is not yet open – we’re working to open as soon as we can.  

❄Night skiing will include terrain accessible from Hogsback Express and Daisy.

❄Tye Creek Eatery + The Foggy Goggle will remain closed for the time being. 

Stevens Pass is truly a special place, and one I’ve been honored to be part of over the last several years. The team + I are committed to providing updates as soon as we’re able. Thank you again for your patience – and understanding – as we move through this season together. 

Best, 
Tom Pettigrew – General Manager, Stevens Pass


----------



## Edd (Dec 25, 2021)

Maybe an AI program is running the entire Vail corporation. Has that vibe.


----------



## abc (Dec 25, 2021)

MogulMonsters said:


> Vail is doing exactly that. They are a “financial” business and not a “ski business” so they value profits over product and experience.


Vail is no more a "financial" than your local pub! 

Every business must make money. They have to provide a "product" to attract customers. That "product" is skiing.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 25, 2021)

machski said:


> Holy shit, Vail even uses form letters for these communications!!  Look at this one from Stevens Pass:
> 
> 
> Hello, Stevens Pass Community,
> ...


The Attitash one is exactly the same as well. Epic.


----------



## Mainer (Dec 25, 2021)

I skied cranmore this week, they had a ton of j1s working. Attitash has a couple but nowhere near as many as in years past. What does cranmore do better to recruit them?
    Skied Shawnee yesterday, fully staffed tons of guns blowing. Just looked at wildcat Facebook page, getting crushed as always. Liked how wildcat didn’t respond to any comments about why the upper mtn is closed, but did respond to say the new gm used to live in Maine. Strange times at the the cat.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2021)

If you look at a lot of industries these days..you see the direction they are headed..no more " premium" product...just cost cutting and a totaly down graded experience...take flying for instance...thats real fun now. Its a shame.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 25, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> If you look at a lot of industries these days..you see the direction they are headed..no more " premium" product...just cost cutting and a totaly down graded experience...take flying for instance...thats real fun now. Its a shame.


X10 since covid


----------



## snoseek (Dec 26, 2021)

Looking at the Webcam for crotched as they opened today and the rocket ain't spinning. Was gonna head up tomorrow but not without that running


----------



## snoseek (Dec 26, 2021)

A closer look has me questioning if they're even open. I don't see humans anywhere


----------



## skimagic (Dec 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> A closer look has me questioning if they're even open. I don't see humans anywhere


they are open! the ribbon cutting was just posted on Facebook


----------



## machski (Dec 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Looking at the Webcam for crotched as they opened today and the rocket ain't spinning. Was gonna head up tomorrow but not without that running


Rocket likely dealing with icing issues.  Pretty bad yesterday by us, doubt they did much yesterday or last night to deal with it.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> A closer look has me questioning if they're even open. I don't see humans anywhere


The Rocket is open now.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 26, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> The Rocket is open now.


Ok good. Are you there today? How is the snow?


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 26, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Ok good. Are you there today? How is the snow?


No, saw a video. Thinking tomorrow as well.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup. And many will quit making things worse as the season goes on.


So true.

Whatever aspect of life you are talking about you always get poor results when you piss people off.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2021)

Wandering around williston today..almost every store has a hiring now sign..15 to 18 bucks an hour..and you dont have to freeze your ass off...hmmmm


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 26, 2021)

If you can't match McDonald's pay and environment, good luck finding people. I think Vail manages neither, there.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2021)

Sad..but i dont see this getting better..how long can this go on ?
Giant game of chicken going on here..


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 26, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Sad..but i dont see this getting better..how long can this go on ?
> Giant game of chicken going on here..


I think it may take a few years. Too many people will still buy epic passes. They will do better financially than ever. Less staff, less mountain open, less snow making, less chairlifts, less shuttles, less etc. = more profits. When 95% of skiers just see “ohhhhhh cheap season passes! Yay!”


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2021)

Not just ski areas..construction,retail,food..
Have to wonder..what is everyone doing?
They quit...but now what? Unemployment only goes so far.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 26, 2021)

Maybe they will double cash on hand in 3 years and can use that $3b to pay employees when they have the CFO bumping chairs


----------



## abc (Dec 26, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> They quit...but now what? Unemployment only goes so far.


???

How do you reconcile your earlier post: 





Kingslug20 said:


> Wandering around williston today..almost every store has a hiring now sign..15 to 18 bucks an hour..and you dont have to freeze your ass off...hmmmm


When there’s jobs all over the place, people will just job hop for $1/hr extra, or a better working environment, or whatever fits their personal need!

Unemployment doesn’t even come into this picture


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2021)

They can only do that so much..When you apply you do have to put down recent work experience...they see a job hopper and you may not get anything. 
I was just checking out job listings on indeed..seems like you can do anything for 15 to 20 bucks an hour...home cleaning a little more..
Still a lot of ski resort jobs posted.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 26, 2021)

Honestly that whole 20% cut should have been a 20% increase in the current hospitality environment.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 26, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> They can only do that so much..When you apply you do have to put down recent work experience...they see a job hopper and you may not get anything.
> I was just checking out job listings on indeed..seems like you can do anything for 15 to 20 bucks an hour...home cleaning a little more..
> Still a lot of ski resort jobs posted.


Remind me to smack you next time we ski...why are you looking at job listings when you just retired?

Time to lose those bad habits!!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2021)

Just interested in the subject..not looking for myself...sitting in a hotel in williston..nothing to do but watch tv...
Went shopping and saw huge hiring now banners all over the place...


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 26, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> If you can't match McDonald's pay and environment, good luck finding people. I think Vail manages neither, there.


*




*


----------



## abc (Dec 26, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> They can only do that so much..When you apply you do have to put down recent work experience...they see a job hopper and you may not get anything.


Sorry, that's an outdated concept.

If you're a restaurant owner, and your pastry chef had just moved to Boston, you advertise for 2 week without any response. Then the 3 resume on the bottom of the waste basket consist of 1 drug addict with criminal record, the next one had but 5 week experience, then this one with 3 year experience with known restaurants but only stay 1 year at each... What will you do? Make pastry yourself?


----------



## zyk (Dec 26, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Kingslug20 said:
> 
> 
> > Not just ski areas..construction,retail,food..
> ...


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 26, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Not just ski areas..construction,retail,food..
> Have to wonder..what is everyone doing?
> They quit...but now what? Unemployment only goes so far.



There's a lot of factors, but the 55+ age group is showing a significant decline in work force participation.  You know first hand the biggest reason that's been possible and probably why you, yourself are where you are.  The market remained remarkably resilient and that was a big point for all of the stimulus; keep people spending. 

Had we had a prolonged market downtown, there likely would be far more people still hustling. Not that I'm rooting for anything like that such that I get better service at the grocery store and Starbucks.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 26, 2021)

Cuzzins at Mount Snow was about 50 to maybe 2/3rds of what it typically is for a Bruce Jacques show.

Apparently the Snow barn was open the last few night with Christmas movies, and just had staff and no customers there. As a huge Mount Snow social media consumer, I had no clue the Snow barn was open the last few nights, and if it wasn't for me following Bruce Jacques's social media feeds, I wouldn't have known about his show today. 

The folks in Broomfield might want to let the local folks manage more of the promotional stuff than they are now.. Pretty sure the on sight staff would appreciate more volume!


----------



## Mainer (Dec 26, 2021)

Apparently you have to be vaccinated to work at vail resorts. Wildcats normal employee is a a 20 something from Berlin. You can work at cumbys or mcd’s for more money, it’s warm and a free shift meal. If. you get vaxxed, want to work in freezing temps, make less then at dunkins, Wildcat is the place for you.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 26, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Apparently you have to be vaccinated to work at vail resorts. Wildcats normal employee is a a 20 something from Berlin. You can work at cumbys or mcd’s for more money, it’s warm and a free shift meal. If. you get vaxxed, want to work in freezing temps, make less then at dunkins, Wildcat is the place for you.


You could probably roll into Shaws with some sort of customer experience and open availability and make 50% more that the Cats starting wage right off the bat.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Apparently you have to be vaccinated to work at vail resorts. Wildcats normal employee is a a 20 something from Berlin. You can work at cumbys or mcd’s for more money, it’s warm and a free shift meal. If. you get vaxxed, want to work in freezing temps, make less then at dunkins, Wildcat is the place for you.



I believe Powdr is also requiring vax.  I know Snowbird and Killington are.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Apparently you have to be vaccinated to work at vail resorts. Wildcats normal employee is a a 20 something from Berlin. You can work at cumbys or mcd’s for more money, it’s warm and a free shift meal. If. you get vaxxed, want to work in freezing temps, make less then at dunkins, Wildcat is the place for you.


All Vail Resorts employees this season need to be fully vaccinated, by the definition of what fully vaccinated was about a month ago, so 2 shots of Pfizer or Moderna or 1 shot of J&J


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2021)

There are a large number of people in my union who do not want to get vaxxed..some even considering quitting...these people make over 100K a year..and are considering quitting probably the best job they will ever have...


----------



## RichT (Dec 27, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Cuzzins at Mount Snow was about 50 to maybe 2/3rds of what it typically is for a Bruce Jacques show.
> 
> Apparently the Snow barn was open the last few night with Christmas movies, and just had staff and no customers there. As a huge Mount Snow social media consumer, I had no clue the Snow barn was open the last few nights, and if it wasn't for me following Bruce Jacques's social media feeds, I wouldn't have known about his show today.
> 
> The folks in Broomfield might want to let the local folks manage more of the promotional stuff than they are now.. Pretty sure the on sight staff would appreciate more volume!


Heck, at least you have stuff open at Mt Snow...............here at Hunter only the bar (2 drinks max, 45 minutes max) is open, no music, TV's. Hunter Mtn Lodge aka "NO FUN ZONE". Windham is fully open though.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2021)

What about the k club bar?
Thats were i hung out..


----------



## Edd (Dec 27, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> There are a large number of people in my union who do not want to get vaxxed..some even considering quitting...these people make over 100K a year..and are considering quitting probably the best job they will ever have...


Yup, nobody said being a contrarian is easy.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2021)

The thing is..most employers want you to be vaxxed..dont know what these guys are going to do...


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

I


Kingslug20 said:


> There are a large number of people in my union who do not want to get vaxxed..some even considering quitting...these people make over 100K a year..and are considering quitting probably the best job they will ever have...


They may "consider" quitting. But when push comes to shove, they may "reconsider".  

Unless they're old enough to consider retiring like you.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 27, 2021)

Most of the people both above and below me at work are antivax. This is a mgmt company with outlets throughout the country so I'm surprised they aren't mandating but the ones at the top are antivax. I'm about done for other reasons but this accelerates things not that I'm worried so much about my health and safety but I just don't want to be surrounded with these types.


----------



## gittist (Dec 27, 2021)

Why are so many people against getting vaccinated?  I suspect some of the reasons are religion, don't trust the vaccines, or simply because someone is telling you that you have to.  Did I miss any?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 27, 2021)

Not sure..but considering all the crap people in my business are subjected too..vaxxing was the least of my worries...its one reason why i retired now..i breathed enough crap at WTC to drop an elephant.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 27, 2021)

Politics.


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> Why are so many people against getting vaccinated?  I suspect some of the reasons are religion, don't trust the vaccines, or simply because someone is telling you that you have to.  Did I miss any?


I only know 1 anti-vaxxer. His reason is he doesn't trust the new vaccine. He'd prefer to wait for more time to pass until the last moment when he's forced to get it. He had the luxury to wait as he's not working with the public and doesn't fall under any mandate, yet. 

When you don't trust the government, you start distrusting everything that resembles authority. He heard the same number of story of our mutual acquaintances getting unpleasant reaction from vaccination. We each drew opposite conclusion out of the same evidence.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> Why are so many people against getting vaccinated?  I suspect some of the reasons are religion, don't trust the vaccines, or simply because someone is telling you that you have to.  Did I miss any?


My mom was told she has to repent to Jesus or shes going to hell for getting the vaccine by one of her coworkers. People are really going off the deep end.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 27, 2021)

Well looks like the Summit Triple broke down at Attitash.  So what else is new?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 27, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> My mom was told she has to repent to Jesus or shes going to hell for getting the vaccine by one of her coworkers. People are really going off the deep end.



I'd love to know what part of the Bible or other religious text/belief people base this stuff on. Even the pope is vaccinated and encourages it. Is it just the covid vaccine these people are against or are they against things like the MMR vaccine as well?


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 27, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'd love to know what part of the Bible or other religious text/belief people base this stuff on. Even the pope is vaccinated and encourages it. Is it just the covid vaccine these people are against or are they against things like the MMR vaccine as well?


From my experience they aren’t anti-vax just only get the major ones (MMR, Polio, Smallpox, ect) and opt out of flu shots and other less critical vaccines. Covid has just taken that contingent of people to another level. My moms response was that Jesus isn’t going to work and pay her bills if she gets fired. Imagine believing that you will go to hell for a shot in your arm though


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 27, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Well looks like the Summit Triple broke down at Attitash.  So what else is new?


Wow!! On Christmas week too!


----------



## Mainer (Dec 27, 2021)

Triple broke at wc too


----------



## Quietman (Dec 27, 2021)

On the plus side, they did open the Yankee at Attitash


----------



## Edd (Dec 27, 2021)

Can't imagine how low morale must be at Cattitash.


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> My moms response was that Jesus isn’t going to work and pay her bills if she gets fired. Imagine believing that you will go to hell for a shot in your arm though


Good for her. 

These days, I no longer hear the traditional Christian value of "God help those who help themselves" much.  Seems on both end of the political spectrum, God was used as an excuse to not do things one doesn't like to do (not getting vaccine, not seeing doctor, or not get a paying job). "The lord will take care of me". Some people seem to equate believing in God the way children believing in the fairy delivering their favorite toys.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> Triple broke at wc too


No way...


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> Why are so many people against getting vaccinated?  I suspect some of the reasons are religion, don't trust the vaccines, or simply because someone is telling you that you have to.  Did I miss any?


Piss Poor roll out by people who told people not to take them under any circumstances that are now mandating it, vaccines developed in record time, no liability for big pharma if they cause injury or death, some people's reaction to mandates is to dig in harder and oppose, religious objections...


----------



## gittist (Dec 27, 2021)

abc said:


> . "The lord will take care of me". Some people seem to equate believing in God the way children believing in the fairy delivering their favorite toys.


And then there are the Christian Scientists...


----------



## Quietman (Dec 27, 2021)

Also the reference that fetal cells were used in some miniscule part of the development process, but this is also true for most vaccines.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 27, 2021)

I grew a superfluous 3rd nipple like Krusty after my booster


----------



## Dickc (Dec 27, 2021)

gittist said:


> Why are so many people against getting vaccinated?  I suspect some of the reasons are religion, don't trust the vaccines, or simply because someone is telling you that you have to.  Did I miss any?


You forgot that some people are deathly afraid of needles.  I think its an irrational fear, but its there.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 27, 2021)

I'm afraid of needles and I sacked up and got the shot 3 times


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

Dickc said:


> You forgot that some people are deathly afraid of needles.  I think its an irrational fear, but its there.


Agree on that. 

Also, I know a few "health nuts" who are totally against medical treatment of any kind unless their life or limbs are in danger. They just refuse to go see a doctor until it's too late. It's that same mentality that makes them anti-vax. 

I have to say I don't like all the mandates. I choose to get vaccinated. It's MY decision. I value my freedom to make that choice.

As long as someone is not interacting with the public (health care/transportation), I feel they should be allow to make a different choice. They maybe in danger themselves, or they maybe endangering their family too. But we've never in the past mandate against self destructive behavior. We should not start that now.


----------



## RichT (Dec 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Piss Poor roll out by people who told people not to take them under any circumstances that are now mandating it, vaccines developed in record time, no liability for big pharma if they cause injury or death, some people's reaction to mandates is to dig in harder and oppose, religious objections...


Yep, you hit the nail on the head there!!!!


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> My mom was told she has to repent to Jesus or shes going to hell for getting the vaccine by one of her coworkers. People are really going off the deep end.


Reminds me of the time a coworker gave my mom a letter letting her know she was going to go to hell if she didn't stop taking yoga (she was a Catholic school teacher).  That was like 15 years ago, my mom still takes yoga.  Shame that she's eventually going to have to deal with that eternal damnation thing.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Piss Poor roll out by people who told people not to take them under any circumstances that are now mandating it, vaccines developed in record time, no liability for big pharma if they cause injury or death, some people's reaction to mandates is to dig in harder and oppose, religious objections...


Over 20k deaths reported to VAERS for the COVID vaccines since the rollout.  This is more than 25 times all other vaccines combined.   They are neither safe nor effective.


----------



## RH29 (Dec 27, 2021)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Over 20k deaths reported to VAERS for the COVID vaccines since the rollout.  This is more than 25 times all other vaccines combined.   They are neither safe nor effective.


Lol, I came to this thread for an entirely different purpose, but I guess I'll have to join in the vax discussion. Could you please give proof of this?
P.S: Official VAERS data reports three deaths linked to the vaccine, one of which happened a month after the second shot.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Sorry, that's an outdated concept.
> 
> If you're a restaurant owner, and your pastry chef had just moved to Boston, you advertise for 2 week without any response. Then the 3 resume on the bottom of the waste basket consist of 1 drug addict with criminal record, the next one had but 5 week experience, then this one with 3 year experience with known restaurants but only stay 1 year at each... What will you do? Make pastry yourself?


Since your example is of the food industry, I’m going to go with the drug addict with a criminal record.


----------



## RH29 (Dec 27, 2021)

Time to derail the Covid Crazies.

Vail needs to take a hint from the folks currently running Jay Peak. This is how you do Customer Service. Not refusing refunds to people unable to travel without breaking the law, not these half-assed copypasted letters from the GMs of all the areas Vail is fucking over. Way to build trust with your passholders, Steve Wright.


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Time to derail the Covid Crazies.
> 
> Vail needs to take a hint from the folks currently running Jay Peak. This is how you do Customer Service. Not refusing refunds to people unable to travel without breaking the law, not these half-assed copypasted letters from the GMs of all the areas Vail is fucking over. Way to build trust with your passholders, Steve Wright.


Excellent!


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Lol, I came to this thread for an entirely different purpose, but I guess I'll have to join in the vax discussion. Could you please give proof of this?
> P.S: Official VAERS data reports three deaths linked to the vaccine, one of which happened a month after the second shot.


He doesn't understand how VAERS works.  Ten seconds of googling explains it.  But if I'm feeling bored today I might add another 50 or 60 deaths to the system.  You don't even need to be a member of the medical community to do so.


----------



## johnl87 (Dec 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Piss Poor roll out by people who told people not to take them under any circumstances that are now mandating it, vaccines developed in record time, no liability for big pharma if they cause injury or death, some people's reaction to mandates is to dig in harder and oppose, religious objections...


the vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission.

if youre fat or old, the vaccines are a good thing.  if youre old and fat, then youre not a snowmaker.

vail decided to mandate vaccines regardless of what happens with the government mandate.  why would a healthy snowmaker want to hand over their private health data to vail?  will vail mandate other shots?  will vail pay you if you get sick from the vaccine?  why deal with this when you can get a job elsewhere for a company that doesn't treat you like a number?


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

johnl87 said:


> the vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission.


First post on the forum, you spew false information.

Or did you sign up with a different user name just to post misleading information?


----------



## RH29 (Dec 27, 2021)

abc said:


> First post on the forum, you spew false information.
> 
> Or did you sign up with a different user name just to post misleading information?


He is partially correct. The vaccines are barely effective at reducing chances of infection or transmission. They are highly effective at preventing severe disease. Previously, vaccines were effective at preventing infection, but Omicron and Delta changed that.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Lol, I came to this thread for an entirely different purpose, but I guess I'll have to join in the vax discussion. Could you please give proof of this?
> P.S: Official VAERS data reports three deaths linked to the vaccine, one of which happened a month after the second shot.


Data obtained from VAERS:


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 27, 2021)

Can we get back on topic? Lol I want to talk about skiing and how much Vail Sucks... I can see how the vaccine mandate plays into it, but rather than debate vaccines here can we keep it related to skiing? Idk just an idea  this forumused to be a nice break from everything Covid 24/7


----------



## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> He is partially correct. The vaccines are barely effective at reducing chances of infection or transmission. They are highly effective at preventing severe disease. Previously, vaccines were effective at preventing infection, but Omicron and Delta changed that.


That's not what I read.

2 doses of vaccine reduced infection and transmission on Delta by something like 50%, at least within 6 months of the 2nd dose, fresh booster restore that back up to something like 70%, whilst waning as time goes by.

The vaccine seem quite useless against Omicron infection, the exception is booster shot seem to reduce infection for the first 3 months post booster.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2021)

Just so we all understand how VAERS works...





__





						You asked, we answered: Does VAERS list deaths caused by COVID-19 vaccines?
					

Is it true that VAERS says 3,000 people have died from the COVID-19 vaccines?




					www.nebraskamed.com


----------



## drjeff (Dec 27, 2021)

abc said:


> That's not what I read.
> 
> 2 doses of vaccine reduced infection and transmission on Delta by something like 50%, at least within 6 months of the 2nd dose, fresh booster restore that back up to something like 70%, whilst waning as time goes by.
> 
> The vaccine seem quite useless against Omicron infection, the exception is booster shot seem to reduce infection for the first 3 months post booster.



The apparent reality that Omicron has much less severe effects to the overwhelming majority of folks (both vaccinated for sure and even the unvaccinated) may ultimately end up counteracting the higher transmission factor that Omicron sure seems to have.

And if the net result is more folks with the combo of natural and vaccine induced antibodies, which seems to be the "best" option, that may not be a bad thing at all. Time will tell


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 27, 2021)

Lets get back to one thing everyone can agree on…..Vail Sucks


----------



## Dickc (Dec 27, 2021)

Well, I am going to go see how bad Vail sucks tomorrow when I drive up to Crotched and ski for a while.  Web cams did not look TOO crowded today, and my NE Value pass is not blacked out for Crotched, Sunapee, Wildcat, or Attitash.  Just the (snobby)   Vermont areas.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Well looks like the Summit Triple broke down at Attitash.  So what else is new?


I read that the Yankee Flyer was down.  Is that true?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 27, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> He doesn't understand how VAERS works.  Ten seconds of googling explains it.  But if I'm feeling bored today I might add another 50 or 60 deaths to the system.  You don't even need to be a member of the medical community to do so.


Seriously, it’s all self reported. Sundayriverrat is a consistent fucking moron.


----------



## RichT (Dec 27, 2021)

Hunter (Vail) sucked today, I thought they were limiting the amount of tickets sold? Yeah sure they were, the line was out the door and down in the parking lot full of people waiting to buy tickets! Place turned into an ice skating rink by 1030.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 27, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Since your example is of the food industry, I’m going to go with the drug addict with a criminal record.



lol beat me to it.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 27, 2021)

Why the  fuck is crotched closing at 230 tomorrow?


----------



## Mainer (Dec 27, 2021)

I started the vax talk, I am sorry about that. Mandating a vaccine To work at attic at for 20 yr olds that the virus doesn’t effect Is kinda stupid when ur hard up.
   But attitash summit triple broke today, So they had to open yankee. Not running yankee during a vacation week is insane. The triple and yankee should be open every day, full stop. 
  Triple at wildcat broke today. Not running a lift to top of wildcat is unacceptable during vacation week and everyday. Sad sad display. So embarrassing that 2 of the biggest mountains in nh arent running top to bottom runs during a vacation week. The biggest ski company in America runs these two mountains. Pathetic


----------



## machski (Dec 27, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I started the vax talk, I am sorry about that. Mandating a vaccine To work at attic at for 20 yr olds that the virus doesn’t effect Is kinda stupid when ur hard up.
> But attitash summit triple broke today, So they had to open yankee. Not running yankee during a vacation week is insane. The triple and yankee should be open every day, full stop.
> Triple at wildcat broke today. Not running a lift to top of wildcat is unacceptable during vacation week and everyday. Sad sad display. So embarrassing that 2 of the biggest mountains in nh arent running top to bottom runs during a vacation week. The biggest ski company in America runs these two mountains. Pathetic


Yup.  Everyone likes to hammer on the old ASC now, but they NEVER pulled any of this crap, even in the cash strapped final years of their existence.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 27, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Why the  fuck is crotched closing at 230 tomorrow?


Really?  I skied today til about 11:30. No lines really, basically shit conditions as expected. Not terrible. Couple runs from the top. 3 down low but, of course, one closed for racing. Took a couple runs off the double, decent snow but a ride took 20 minutes with multiple stops. 2:30?  Really lame.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I started the vax talk, I am sorry about that. Mandating a vaccine To work at attic at for 20 yr olds that the virus doesn’t effect Is kinda stupid when ur hard up.



I can throw shade at Vail for many things, but employment vaccination policy I cannot.  As I understand the rules, they didn't really have a choice unless they wanted to gamble that the courts would stop the federal policy on vaccines for large employers over 100 workers.  I believe vaccine or weekly testing will be required for those companies starting January 10th.  So having this happen right during ski season, Vail's hand was kind of forced.   Unless they have some exemptions I'm not aware of.


----------



## johnl87 (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I can throw shade at Vail for many things, but employment vaccination policy I cannot.  As I understand the rules, they didn't really have a choice unless they wanted to gamble that the courts would stop the federal policy on vaccines for large employers over 100 workers.  I believe vaccine or weekly testing will be required for those companies starting January 10th.  So having this happen right during ski season, Vail's hand was kind of forced.   Unless they have some exemptions I'm not aware of.



first of all, the order is not constitutional and other major corporations have halted implementation.

secondly, vail could have offered the testing option like other large ski companies did, but they did not.  bye bye snowmakers.

thirdly, vail could have chosen not to implement this ahead of the federal orders, which means they would have until february (if the supremes don't strike it down).  snowmaking is just about done in the east at that point, but what would the suits in colorado know about that?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

I'm not here to argue the constitutionality of the mandates.  I'm not a lawyer.  Are you a constitutional lawyer or a a Facebook lawyer?

Just saying Vail likely saw compliance as the easiest choice they could make going into hiring season with the information they had.  I'm not sure allowing the testing option would have worked either.  Sounds like a logistical nightmare to roll out given how ski resorts operate. 

Again, I'm one of Vails biggest critics, but this one isn't entirely on them.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 28, 2021)

I've heard some companies are happy about mandates since it can in theory help weed out potential employees that will give them "issues" in other areas.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not here to argue the constitutionality of the mandates.  I'm not a lawyer.  Are you a constitutional lawyer or a a Facebook lawyer?


I’m going with he stayed at a Holiday Inn.    The case has not been heard by the Supreme Court yet.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not here to argue the constitutionality of the mandates.  I'm not a lawyer.  Are you a constitutional lawyer or a a Facebook lawyer?
> 
> Just saying Vail likely saw compliance as the easiest choice they could make going into hiring season with the information they had.  I'm not sure allowing the testing option would have worked either.  Sounds like a logistical nightmare to roll out given how ski resorts operate.
> 
> Again, I'm one of Vails biggest critics, but this one isn't entirely on them.



It seems like Vail's policy for employees and vaxxing is a simple 1 size fits all model, which given all the states/countries that they have employees in as as well as the multiple nationalities their employees are, and the likely feeling that they HAD to do something (one can argue all they want if that feeling of social responsibility is/isn't a good thing), I can see why they chose to do what they did, and at a point in time where the expectations from employees about their vaccination status would need to be to be hired didn't create any last minute changes in policy.

Is it the right thing or the wrong thing, or even a needed thing? I guess that is going to be an answer with plenty of subjectivity from tons of different view points


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> It seems like Vail's policy for employees and vaxxing is a simple 1 size fits all model, which given all the states/countries that they have employees in as as well as the multiple nationalities their employees are, and the likely feeling that they HAD to do something (one can argue all they want if that feeling of social responsibility is/isn't a good thing), I can see why they chose to do what they did, and at a point in time where the expectations from employees about their vaccination status would need to be to be hired didn't create any last minute changes in policy.
> 
> Is it the right thing or the wrong thing, or even a needed thing? I guess that is going to be an answer with plenty of subjectivity from tons of different view points


The international workers are 100% vaxxed whether Vail wants them to be or not. Required for entry to the United States as a non-immigrant visa holder.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2021)

Is it really the mask thing or that they pay like shit?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2021)

Probably both


----------



## Geoff (Dec 28, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Is it really the mask thing or that they pay like shit?


In Colorado, Vail starts at $15/hour.  My stepdaughter works in Vail Village a few steps from the parking structure.  Entry level jobs in the village start at $20 and most employers kick in at least a season pass.  I doubt many employees at Vail are at the minimum $15/hour.  Nobody is going to take a job that pays less than $20. 

I don’t know anything about New Hampshire pay but that’s how Vail pays at their Colorado resorts.  This isn’t a corporate wage rate.


----------



## abc (Dec 28, 2021)

johnl87 said:


> first of all, the order is not constitutional and other major corporations have halted implementation.





deadheadskier said:


> I'm not here to argue the constitutionality of the mandates. I'm not a lawyer. Are you a constitutional lawyer or a a *Facebook lawyer*?


  


Geoff said:


> I’m going with he stayed at a Holiday Inn.    The case has not been heard by the Supreme Court yet.I


I don't think he even has time to stay in the Holiday Inn. 

Join yesterday. Only posted vaccine disinformation garbage so far. 

But maybe he got kicked out of his job because he refuse to vaccinate so he had time to spew his hate here... 

Put on 'IGNORE'.


----------



## LonghornSkier (Dec 28, 2021)

FWIW-I was recruited by VailResorts in Winter 2019 for a revenue management role at their HQ. 

I wasn’t interested in switching jobs at the time-but they did not pay below market.

Obviously doesn’t relate to what they’re paying hourly employees-but they’ll pay for talent in the “right” places.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> In Colorado, Vail starts at $15/hour.  My stepdaughter works in Vail Village a few steps from the parking structure.  Entry level jobs in the village start at $20 and most employers kick in at least a season pass.  I doubt many employees at Vail are at the minimum $15/hour.  Nobody is going to take a job that pays less than $20.
> 
> I don’t know anything about New Hampshire pay but that’s how Vail pays at their Colorado resorts.  This isn’t a corporate wage rate.



I know in PA they are not starting at $15  at least not for all positions.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I know in PA they are not starting at $15  at least not for all positions.


So lower?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 28, 2021)

Yes I think $12-13


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 28, 2021)

Most people don’t work at ski resorts for money. They want a fun job and perks like a free season pass. Vail has eliminated the fun and the passes are so cheap you can work somewhere better and buy a pass.


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 28, 2021)

They are easily $3 under market rate for rookies and more for some full time ops positions in PA, compared to other resorts that are noted tightwads.


----------



## machski (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I can throw shade at Vail for many things, but employment vaccination policy I cannot.  As I understand the rules, they didn't really have a choice unless they wanted to gamble that the courts would stop the federal policy on vaccines for large employers over 100 workers.  I believe vaccine or weekly testing will be required for those companies starting January 10th.  So having this happen right during ski season, Vail's hand was kind of forced.   Unless they have some exemptions I'm not aware of.


Pushed to Feb 8th or 9th by Biden with all the start/stop/start of this policy as it weaves through the courts.  Very likely another stop hits prior to the new implementation date in Feb.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 28, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Most people don’t work at ski resorts for money. They want a fun job and perks like a free season pass. Vail has eliminated the fun and the passes are so cheap you can work somewhere better and buy a pass.


Sure, but at the I-70 resorts, they have to pay enough so people can afford housing.   A room in a vintage 1960s shared house in East Vail where the sun never shines is at least $1k per month assuming you could find one.   People are getting pushed 45 minutes out to Gypsum because the telecommuters have snapped up all the housing paying premium prices.  The housing situation in Gorham/Berlin NH or Penciltucky looks nothing like that.


----------



## IceEidolon (Dec 28, 2021)

Maybe patrol or ski school or lifts works because it's a fun job in an environment they like. A lot of your critical positions (lift mechanics, many experienced paid patrollers and instructors, basically your whole Mtn Ops department) are skilled professionals or at least tradesmen, and they expect to be paid at minimum more than entry level fast food pays.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2021)

These entry level jobs were originaly designed for kids entering the work force...that changed. Now adults are working them,2 sometimes 3 a week. This is causing a lot of the frustration. Used to be you could start st one of these jobs and if you were good you made your way up the line. Now if you stay too long at a job you end up making less than if you move around. 
And we end up where we are now...
Thats my take on it.
Just looked out my window and it was snowing a bit..liking the new view!


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Sounds like a logistical nightmare to roll out given how ski resorts operate.


Seems to be working just fine at other areas that do it, but given vails incompetence, i'm sure they wouldn't have been able to come up with a testing system for their employees either


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Seems to be working just fine at other areas that do it, but given vails incompetence, i'm sure they wouldn't have been able to come up with a testing system for their employees either



I'd be curious to:

1. which areas are doing the testing option
2. What percentage of their staff opted for testing vs vax
3. How much better are they staffed than Vail
4. What wages are they offering


----------



## snoseek (Dec 28, 2021)

Quad down at crotched...30 min wait for the shitty double. Looks like they're comping day ticket people


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be curious to:
> 
> 1. which areas are doing the testing option
> 2. What percentage of their staff opted for testing vs vax
> ...



DHS stop trying to take a rational, analytical approach to anything with even remote relevance to COVID policies! 

Next thing you know, you'll be having to ban yourself from AZ for trying to ask vald questions that go against public health policies that we're all just supposed to take a one size fits all approach to blindly following!


----------



## cdskier (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be curious to:
> 
> 1. which areas are doing the testing option
> 2. What percentage of their staff opted for testing vs vax
> ...



Killington requires vaccination of their employees. MRG requires it. Sugarbush required it according to a local MRV newspaper article back in November (although I couldn't confirm that from their employment site). At the time of the article though, SB did say they already had a very high vaccine compliance rate among staff. So even if they removed that requirement if they were having problems filling jobs, it would still be a relatively small percentage of staff without the vaccine. SB even went a step further and for some customer-facing jobs, wasn't even allowing religious or other exemptions for the vaccine. Also no exemptions allowed if you wanted to stay in employee housing. I feel like point #4 above is more likely a bigger factor for Vail's staffing issues rather than the vax requirement.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 28, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Quad down at crotched...30 min wait for the shitty double. Looks like they're comping day ticket people


Before they opened today they announced that they were closing at 2:30.  Later announced it is due to "scheduled lift maintenance". Make of it what you will.


----------



## abc (Dec 28, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> These entry level jobs were originaly designed for kids entering the work force...that changed.


There're aren't as many "entry level jobs" as it used to be due to automation. The jobs that can't be automated away are the kind that takes more skill and human attention. The kind that are too complex for a dumb machine. Or a dumb human! 



> Used to be you could start st one of these jobs and if you were good you made your way up the line.
> 
> 
> > Now if you stay too long at a job you end up making less than if you move around.


That's a bit of a misunderstanding. They only move up if they actually pay attention to the job and gain experience. There's no motivation for employer to pay more for the same work done. They only pay more if someone is doing a better job than the next kid that walks in. 



> Now adults are working them,2 sometimes 3 a week. This is *causing* a lot of the frustration.


I suspect that's more the consequence of not finding enough young ones to work those jobs. The hiring of older part timers are more a result rather than the *cause*.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 28, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Quad down at crotched...30 min wait for the shitty double. Looks like they're comping day ticket people


So it's December 28th and of the 4 Vail resorts in NH only Sunapee has lift served skiing from the summit. Experience of a lifetime right here in NH.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 28, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Sure, but at the I-70 resorts, they have to pay enough so people can afford housing.   A room in a vintage 1960s shared house in East Vail where the sun never shines is at least $1k per month assuming you could find one.   People are getting pushed 45 minutes out to Gypsum because the telecommuters have snapped up all the housing paying premium prices.  The housing situation in Gorham/Berlin NH or Penciltucky looks nothing like that.


Housing comes with the job in CO.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

snoseek said:


> Quad down at crotched...30 min wait for the shitty double. Looks like they're comping day ticket people



They didn't have the Valley Quad ready to go as a backup to the HSQ?  

While better in recent years, the HSQ has had issues in the past.  

That's quite the #Vailfail


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 28, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> So it's December 28th and of the 4 Vail resorts in NH only Sunapee has lift served skiing from the summit. Experience of a lifetime right here in NH.


Pathetic.


----------



## machski (Dec 28, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> So it's December 28th and of the 4 Vail resorts in NH only Sunapee has lift served skiing from the summit. Experience of a lifetime right here in NH.


Perhaps not so ironically, the only Vail resort with Summit lift access in NH currently (with 2 HSQ options) is the only one not a former Peaks resort.  We use to beat squarely on ASC for leaving it's resorts with tons of deferred maintenance passed onto the new owners.  Just saying.....


----------



## skiur (Dec 28, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Before they opened today they announced that they were closing at 2:30.  Later announced it is due to "scheduled lift maintenance". Make of it what you will.


It's Xmas week and we are gonna schedule maintenance?  If true they are morons for scheduling maintenance during Xmas week.  If it was an excuse they are morons for not coming up with a better excuse!


----------



## Edd (Dec 28, 2021)

Someone sent me this, supposedly from today at Attitash. Don’t know the guy tweeting but easy to believe. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475857248798789632


----------



## Dickc (Dec 28, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Well, I am going to go see how bad Vail sucks tomorrow when I drive up to Crotched and ski for a while.  Web cams did not look TOO crowded today, and my NE Value pass is not blacked out for Crotched, Sunapee, Wildcat, or Attitash.  Just the (snobby)   Vermont areas.


Well, got on the lift about 9:20, and skkied until 11.  At 11, the lift shut down.  After about 15 minutes with three guys running around, up and down the lift access way, (one guy in a Sunapee jacket), they started the diesel and told everyone to slog over to the west lift.  I went home.  Checked at 1:30, and the Rocket was running, but was empty.  Crotched shut down at 2:30 today for some reason.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

machski said:


> Perhaps not so ironically, the only Vail resort with Summit lift access in NH currently (with 2 HSQ options) is the only one not a former Peaks resort.  We use to beat squarely on ASC for leaving it's resorts with tons of deferred maintenance passed onto the new owners.  Just saying.....



If it were year 1 of ownership, I might throw some blame towards Peak.  But we are in year 3.  Vail gets to eat the whole FU sandwich


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If it were year 1 of ownership, I might throw some blame towards Peak.  But we are in year 3.  Vail gets to eat the whole FU sandwich


Totally. Although Sunapee is open to the summit their snowmaking is embarrassing compared to what they produced before vail. Being next door to ragged makes realizing that easy.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 28, 2021)

Starting to think some NH kids picked on Rob Katz when he was in college.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 28, 2021)

Grocery store by me starts at $16 and is pretty chill, Vail starts at $12 or less, they are not paying market rate and it's not like people are going to spend their winter renting a house in central Pennsylvania so that they can ski Liberty and work for Vail


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 28, 2021)

machski said:


> Perhaps not so ironically, the only Vail resort with Summit lift access in NH currently (with 2 HSQ options) is the only one not a former Peaks resort.  We use to beat squarely on ASC for leaving it's resorts with tons of deferred maintenance passed onto the new owners.  Just saying.....


I was at sunapee monday. never even had a brief stoppage going up. No lift issues there. Place was packed by 10 with 15ish minute wait at the base lift. Pretty much ski on at the sunbowl lift. But, man, icy..scrapped off by 11 or so. the one trail open in the sun bowl was a deathtrap. They were blowing snow hard back there and did open another trail in the sunbowl today. 

I'm headed to crotched tomorrow, its 25 miles from my house. bailed on a trip with the kids to Okemo tomorrow, friends say its been jammed there as expected.


----------



## RichT (Dec 28, 2021)

Same shit at Hunter today! They had the "Northern Express" break down, while we waited a 1/2 hr for maintenance to drive over and run over the bridge, get it going to get everyone out of there and close it! Not sure if it ever opened again. I went home. They say that they are 47% open, but there's way more grass than snow!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2021)

Vail in..for the fail....


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 28, 2021)

Dickc said:


> Well, got on the lift about 9:20, and skkied until 11.  At 11, the lift shut down.  After about 15 minutes with three guys running around, up and down the lift access way, (one guy in a Sunapee jacket), they started the diesel and told everyone to slog over to the west lift.  I went home.  Checked at 1:30, and the Rocket was running, but was empty.  Crotched shut down at 2:30 today for some reason.


Closing at 230 on Christmas week?


----------



## machski (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If it were year 1 of ownership, I might throw some blame towards Peak.  But we are in year 3.  Vail gets to eat the whole FU sandwich


It's funny, Killington and even SR folks kept blaming deferred ASC maintenance and lack of investments for like a decade after ownership transferred.  Hell, some even still blame it for the resorts not being further along in development plans.  But Vail gets the whole F U sandwich on 3 years, one of which was paused in lift upgrades due to a country/global work shutdown and fear of more.  So really, they had this past summer of ownership of the former Peak resorts.  And they were catching up on all deferred plans that had been in place prior to the Peaks acquisition.

I don't like how they are operating their resorts, I think they are part of the reason they are so understaffed.  But then almost every resort with a few exceptions are.  But to think they could rip out or completely overhaul lifts that definitely appear to have a lot of deferred maintenance is a bit harsh.  That is a lot to ask, especially with a lost off season tossed in the middle from the pandemic shutdowns


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Closing at 230 on Christmas week?



The 2:30 shutdown was pre-announced. They said for scheduled lift maintenance. 

During Christmas week

Gotta shut all four chairs down at once for a marathon afternoon lift maintenance session

During Christmas week


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

machski said:


> It's funny, Killington and even SR folks kept blaming deferred ASC maintenance and lack of investments for like a decade after ownership transferred.  Hell, some even still blame it for the resorts not being further along in development plans.  But Vail gets the whole F U sandwich on 3 years, one of which was paused in lift upgrades due to a country/global work shutdown and fear of more.  So really, they had this past summer of ownership of the former Peak resorts.  And they were catching up on all deferred plans that had been in place prior to the Peaks acquisition.
> 
> I don't like how they are operating their resorts, I think they are part of the reason they are so understaffed.  But then almost every resort with a few exceptions are.  But to think they could rip out or completely overhaul lifts that definitely appear to have a lot of deferred maintenance is a bit harsh.  That is a lot to ask, especially with a lost off season tossed in the middle from the pandemic shutdowns



Ok

That's a little bit fair I'll give you during "unprecedented times". 

But for a company that boasts about having $1B+ in cash on hand?

That's an exponentially larger FU sandwich than a few snowmakers running lifts on a 30 degree day at Sunday River no?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> But for a company that boasts about having $1B+ in cash on hand?


Gotta save that money for dividends for the stockholders. Or for buying more ski resorts...


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The 2:30 shutdown was pre-announced. They said for scheduled lift maintenance.
> 
> During Christmas week
> 
> ...


4 lifts?  You're being generous. The park chair doesn't even have chairs on it, looks like they gave up on it. And as far as I know the Valley quad hasn't been inspected, or failed, or something like that. Word on the street is the  double failed inspection as well, but has obviously passed by now as it's running, however slow, it is moving. The Rocket is the Rocket, great lift, when it's running properly. I wonder how many lift mechanics they have, if any?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2021)

chuckstah said:


> 4 lifts?  You're being generous. The park chair doesn't even have chairs on it, looks like they gave up on it. And as far as I know the Valley quad hasn't been inspected, or failed, or something like that. Word on the street is the  double failed inspection as well, but has obviously passed by now as it's running, however slow, it is moving. The Rocket is the Rocket, great lift, when it's running properly. I wonder how many lift mechanics they have, if any?



Or how many might be currently affect by the Omicron spike? Regardless of Vail's employee vaccination requirement I am pretty sure we all can agree that this current wave of infections seems to hit plenty of folks regardless of their vaccination status


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Or how many might be currently affect by the Omicron spike? Regardless of Vail's employee vaccination requirement I am pretty sure we all can agree that this current wave of infections seems to hit plenty of folks regardless of their vaccination status


Oh, the Omicron is everywhere, I just kicked it (likely, don't know what variant) to the curb myself. But lifts not being maintained over the summer, with Vail not allowing money to be spent, and not being able to hire when the competition was on it!  That's 100 percent in Vail.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Or how many might be currently affect by the Omicron spike? Regardless of Vail's employee vaccination requirement I am pretty sure we all can agree that this current wave of infections seems to hit plenty of folks regardless of their vaccination status



Pretty sensible conclusion Jeff.  It really is given the flight cancellation shit show well broadcasted this week where Covid infection was purportedly the fault.  Things ARE getting nutty again across multiple industries and staffing is an issue. 

But is the competition having the same problems right now as Vail resorts?

Don't bring that Mt Snow 20 year Mr Sunshine optimism into a Vail Sucks thread without an answer to why Vail lags comp.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The 2:30 shutdown was pre-announced. They said for scheduled lift maintenance.
> 
> During Christmas week
> 
> ...


Seeing they just opened this week. Wtf were they doing before?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty sensible conclusion Jeff.  It really is given the flight cancellation shit show well broadcasted this week where Covid infection was purportedly the fault.  Things ARE getting nutty again across multiple industries and staffing is an issue.
> 
> But is the competition having the same problems right now as Vail resorts?
> 
> Don't bring that Mt Snow 20 year Mr Sunshine optimism into a Vail Sucks thread without an answer to why Vail lags comp.



I fully get that compared to other Vail properties, especially in the Northeast, that Mount Snow is lucky enough to have Snow Lake Lodge as employee housing for J1 Visa folks to get a greater amount of staffing than other resorts. So until that place falls down (which I have long thought is a possibility since I once stayed there back in the mid 90's ) I get the lucky factor!

As my brother, who is staying up in Bartlett this week with his family was at Attitash today and  texted me around lunch time today.... Didn't think that I'd have more beers than runs by 11 and I'm on my 2nd beer and gave up on the day already.

I feel terrible especially for the way too small now crew of dedicated employees at their New Hampshire properties, who are trying their best to keep customers happy because they have pride in their "home" mountain even with very little support apparently from the home office.

We at times seem to forget that most ski resort employees, whether full time year rounders or winter seasonal employees underneath it love the sport of skiing/riding


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2021)

Okay skiing Mr Rogers. Can I borrow your shades?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay skiing Mr Rogers. Can I borrow your shades?


Just get the rose colored lenses for your new Glade Optics goggles!


----------



## Mainer (Dec 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> We at times seem to forget that most ski resort employees, whether full time year rounders or winter seasonal employees underneath it love the sport of skiing/riding


 I see this less and less every year around here (mwv). You used to normally see lifties bumping chairs in ski boots or snowboard boots. Not so much anymore. Which is part of the problem vail is having. If you can’t find skiers that think it’s fun to work at the mountain. You just get workers that want the money, and if it’s less then every other business in town. It’s a problem. Add the stupid rules corps have, mandates, and just a $400 free pass as the perk. That’s a hard no.
    Plus everybody skiing there is pissed because the product is so bad. They get wrath all day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2021)

In Vail news from out here…..









						PCMR leader optimistic resort and ski patrol will reach contract agreement
					

The leader of Park City Mountain Resort said Monday he is disappointed the ski patrol union voted down the company’s latest contract proposal earlier this month but he was hopeful progress would be made in a bargaining session early in the week.




					www.parkrecord.com


----------



## ss20 (Dec 28, 2021)

Mainer said:


> I see this less and less every year around here (mwv). You used to normally see lifties bumping chairs in ski boots or snowboard boots. Not so much anymore. Which is part of the problem vail is having. If you can’t find skiers that think it’s fun to work at the mountain. You just get workers that want the money, and if it’s less then every other business in town. It’s a problem. Add the stupid rules corps have, mandates, and just a $400 free pass as the perk. That’s a hard no.
> Plus everybody skiing there is pissed because the product is so bad. They get wrath all day.



I agree overall.  Some of it is due to stricter liability laws.  Worker's comp is a very messy issue industry-wide.  Lots of factors in-play regarding skiing at work...on-clock/off-clock, uniform, terrain, etc.  Alta has by far the most lax skiing/labor rules I've ever encountered.  After my lesson I can go up and ski Gunsight in uniform, no issues.  Lifties are a little more restricted but they can ski in uniform between switching stations...it's cool seeing their skis set up ready-to-go right outside the op shack!  It's a PITA if you have to go to the locker room, get into civilian clothes, and clock-out before freeskiing.  Consider it impossible if it's just a lunch break.  Not defending Vail but industry-wide you're not going to see many on-hill employees skiing on their work days.  It's just tough these days with the hoops to jump through.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> Totally. Although Sunapee is open to the summit their snowmaking is embarrassing compared to what they produced before vail. Being next door to ragged makes realizing that easy.


Under the Muellers the snowmaking was a huge part of the draw for Sunapee.  Huge draw.  I can’t imagine it with less snowmaking.


----------



## PAabe (Dec 28, 2021)

Too many rules & too much liability nowadays.  If you ski it should be obvious that it is dangerous just like driving or drinking or eating unhealthily


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 29, 2021)

The natives are getting  restless in the west

https://www.change.org/p/vail-resorts-hold-vail-resorts-accountable


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Under the Muellers the snowmaking was a huge part of the draw for Sunapee.  Huge draw.  I can’t imagine it with less snowmaking.


I can. I used to ski there when it was run by the state.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 29, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I can. I used to ski there when it was run by the state.


That was when John “JD” Devivo  ran it. Now the GM at Cannon. Good guy !  I trained him as a rookie at SR 30+ years ago.  He’s had every job a ski resort could offer. Something current Vail management seems to be lacking….


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2021)

abc said:


> There're aren't as many "entry level jobs" as it used to be due to automation.



Oh, please.  If we were talking about manufacturing you would have a point.  But there has been an explosion in service sector jobs, which have been minimally impacted by automation.  If you were correct, people would be lining up to work at Vail.

My son works a summer job at a seasonal tourist attraction.  His pay went up about 90% in one year and they were still desperate for employees.  The labor market is pretty screwy right now.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 29, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As my brother, who is staying up in Bartlett this week with his family was at Attitash today and  texted me around lunch time today....



You sent you brother to Attitash???  Wow, you must hate him!


----------



## drjeff (Dec 29, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> You sent you brother to Attitash???  Wow, you must hate him!



Not my fault!    

I "warned" him for what he was likely in for on Christmas Eve. He has very good friends who own the place in Bartlett and they have a tradition of getting togther with their kids up there X-Mas week.  I feel I did my older brother due diligence and in addtion to telling them what they were likely to expect on the hill, I told him to make sure that there was extra beer and wine purchased!   

Apparently they're off to Cranmore today (they're often with the 10AM ish arriving crowd by the time they get the combined 7 kids out the door  ) so I am waiting to see if I get an on hill picture or an in the bar picture later this morning!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 29, 2021)

some dude went missing on xmas at Northstar and is likely upside down dead in a tree well. a competent skier who managed the local surefoot, but was new to tahoe apparently. i caught wind of it from an unofficial networks or snowbrains post a few days ago. this is obviously tragic. but last night a friend who is a casual skier and former sf/tahoe person posted to Instagram ranting and raving at Northstar for promoting the recent big historic snow and big-time conditions (assuming they've even dug out and the roads are open?). i went to the northstar post and found the comments almost universally piling on them about promoting the big snow and not mentioning the missing skier. i hate vail as much as the next guy here, but i didn't agree with these commenters, who seemed to think the business of being a ski resort should stop because one patron has tragically been lost and is probably dead. skiing is inherently risky, and we all acknowledge that legally every time we ride a lift with our pass or buy a day ticket. this fella went out by himself in a huge storm and he had a bad accident, but i dont think northstar/vail needs to stop their business in its tracks over it after a giant storm in a holiday week


----------



## abc (Dec 29, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Oh, please. If we were talking about manufacturing you would have a point. But there has been an explosion in service sector jobs, which have been minimally impacted by automation.


But I was talking about all jobs, not just service sector jobs.

All young people need to find some work. Service sector is the only sector left for them. And it's not a sector they can automatically "move up" and get paid more like in manufacturing or office jobs.


----------



## Edd (Dec 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some dude went missing on xmas at Northstar and is likely upside down dead in a tree well. a competent skier who managed the local surefoot, but was new to tahoe apparently. i caught wind of it from an unofficial networks or snowbrains post a few days ago. this is obviously tragic. but last night a friend who is a casual skier and former sf/tahoe person posted to Instagram ranting and raving at Northstar for promoting the recent big historic snow and big-time conditions (assuming they've even dug out and the roads are open?). i went to the northstar post and found the comments almost universally piling on them about promoting the big snow and not mentioning the missing skier. i hate vail as much as the next guy here, but i didn't agree with these commenters, who seemed to think the business of being a ski resort should stop because one patron has tragically been lost and is probably dead. skiing is inherently risky, and we all acknowledge that legally every time we ride a lift with our pass or buy a day ticket. this fella went out by himself in a huge storm and he had a bad accident, but i dont think northstar/vail needs to stop their business in its tracks over it after a giant storm in a holiday week


Agreed those criticisms sound ridiculous.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some dude went missing on xmas at Northstar and is likely upside down dead in a tree well. a competent skier who managed the local surefoot, but was new to tahoe apparently. i caught wind of it from an unofficial networks or snowbrains post a few days ago. this is obviously tragic. but last night a friend who is a casual skier and former sf/tahoe person posted to Instagram ranting and raving at Northstar for promoting the recent big historic snow and big-time conditions (assuming they've even dug out and the roads are open?). i went to the northstar post and found the comments almost universally piling on them about promoting the big snow and not mentioning the missing skier. i hate vail as much as the next guy here, but i didn't agree with these commenters, who seemed to think the business of being a ski resort should stop because one patron has tragically been lost and is probably dead. skiing is inherently risky, and we all acknowledge that legally every time we ride a lift with our pass or buy a day ticket. this fella went out by himself in a huge storm and he had a bad accident, but i dont think northstar/vail needs to stop their business in its tracks over it after a giant storm in a holiday week


With the kind of storms hitting Tahoe right now they aren’t going to find that kid until June.


----------



## Geoff (Dec 29, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I fully get that compared to other Vail properties, especially in the Northeast, that Mount Snow is lucky enough to have Snow Lake Lodge as employee housing for J1 Visa folks to get a greater amount of staffing than other resorts. So until that place falls down (which I have long thought is a possibility since I once stayed there back in the mid 90's ) I get the lucky factor!


I'm old.  I remember the Snow Lake Lodge when it was the premier place in Southern Vermont with the George Jetson saucer lift over the pond and the geyser in the pond with people hiking it and skiing it in the spring.   The Mixing Bowl beginner lift on a track.  The 2-seater gondola where you didn't need to take your skis off.  Heated outdoor swimming pool and indoor skating rink inside the base lodge.  The Jets even had a good football team.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> With the kind of storms hitting Tahoe right now they aren’t going to find that kid until June.



totally. 42 tho, not a kid. a good skier who literally got in over his head. rip.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 29, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I'm old.  I remember the Snow Lake Lodge when it was the premier place in Southern Vermont with the George Jetson saucer lift over the pond and the geyser in the pond with people hiking it and skiing it in the spring.   The Mixing Bowl beginner lift on a track.  The 2-seater gondola where you didn't need to take your skis off.  Heated outdoor swimming pool and indoor skating rink inside the base lodge.  *The Jets even had a good football team**.*


I didn't realize you were THAT OLD Geoff!!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 29, 2021)

we ate at the snow lake lodge a few times when i was like 10 (so 25 years ago), it seemed fancy to me then!


----------



## urungus (Dec 29, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I'm old.  I remember the Snow Lake Lodge when it was the premier place in Southern Vermont with the George Jetson saucer lift over the pond and the geyser in the pond with people hiking it and skiing it in the spring.   The Mixing Bowl beginner lift on a track.  The 2-seater gondola where you didn't need to take your skis off.  Heated outdoor swimming pool and indoor skating rink inside the base lodge.  The Jets even had a good football team.


Man I wish I could have experienced that era of Mt Snow


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

urungus said:


> Man I wish I could have experienced that era of Mt Snow



To think they almost used a nuke back then to blow a hole in the ground for more vertical!


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> totally. 42 tho, not a kid. a good skier who literally got in over his head. rip.


Dang. I didn’t see the age, only a photo. He looked younger than that.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

urungus said:


> Man I wish I could have experienced that era of Mt Snow


I think Sugarbush would have been really cool to see in it’s hay days as well


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The 2:30 shutdown was pre-announced. They said for scheduled lift maintenance.
> 
> During Christmas week
> 
> ...



That is kind of ridiculous. My best guess is it's probably some maintenance that has to be done at 50 hours after initial start up or something like that. Keep in mind they've only been open since the 26th and I could see something like that happen.

Why they didn't do it after the day was finished, that I can explain, other than to speculate they didn't want to pay people to work at night. And I could be completely wrong and they could just be idiots for scheduling at the way they did.

I will say me and my kids had a great day skiing there today. I had never been there and my expectations were low. They were greatly surpassed. Even with just half of the trails open it was a fun place to ski. In the morning it was hard pack and got scraped off pretty quick but then as the day warmed up the snow softened up and it was really good.

They had a small terrain park with small features open which was perfect for us. 

Glad I bailed on going to Okemo and went to crotchet instead. Most likely going back Friday.

Pretty sad that based on what I've seen at Sunapee attitash and wildcat that crotched is Vail's crown jewel in New Hampshire at the moment.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> That is kind of ridiculous. My best guess is it's probably some maintenance that has to be done at 50 hours after initial start up or something like that. Keep in mind they've only been open since the 26th and I could see something like that happen.
> 
> Why they didn't do it after the day was finished, that I can explain, other than to speculate they didn't want to pay people to work at night. And I could be completely wrong and they could just be idiots for scheduling at the way they did.
> 
> ...


If there are corporate office workers looking at numbers that makes complete sense being the closest area to Boston.

Why make your pass holders drive farther to ski your most professionally run area? If they can save on gas the more likely they’ll buy your 18 dollar cheese burger.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Vail doesn’t care about the long term. For whatever reason they are coming in hot to grab what they can and quick.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> That is kind of ridiculous. My best guess is it's probably some maintenance that has to be done at 50 hours after initial start up or something like that. Keep in mind they've only been open since the 26th and I could see something like that happen.
> 
> Why they didn't do it after the day was finished, that I can explain, other than to speculate they didn't want to pay people to work at night. And I could be completely wrong and they could just be idiots for scheduling at the way they did.
> 
> ...



Reasonable explanation.  I know nothing about lift maintenance, but I've never seen something like that happen anywhere in 39 years of skiing.  Having to close an entire mountain during a holiday week to service all the lifts that would be.  

Glad you had a great day at Crotched.  For a small place they punch well above their weight.  Go back when the trees are in play.  They have some really great trees both on and especially off map.  One of my top ten days ever was there following an 18" storm that hit just right such that the masses couldn't make it to the hill until about noon.  Ripped a solid 20 runs before noon with fresh tracks every run.  It was particularly satisfying because I was supposed to be at a meeting in Seattle, but my flight got cancelled because of the storm.  The people who work there are fantastic as well.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 29, 2021)

I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
Not run it into the ground...


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## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
> Not run it into the ground...


That’s not the game they’re playing.


----------



## abc (Dec 29, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
> Not run it into the ground...


I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...

(I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)

Vail most likely haven't decided on what to do with the rest in that package. So the last thing they want to do is to spend money on them.

Seems like people aren't complaining too much on the mountains in Vermont. Looks to me that's what Vail really want and they do pay attention to run them "normally".


----------



## machski (Dec 29, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...
> 
> (I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)
> 
> ...


Except Okemo was not part of Peaks.  Vail already had that area (along with Sunapee and Crested Butte).


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...
> 
> (I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)
> 
> ...



Of course Vail would have preferred to buy the best performing mountains in the Peak portfolio.  Most public takeovers don't work like that though.    It wasn't a case of Peak only agreeing to sell it all, they were a publicly traded company performing poorly on their balance sheets.  Their only option really was to have the entire corporation bought out.   If they sold off only their best performing properties they'd be left to struggle with low income properties and a stock value of pennies.  

I don't see Vail trying to "figure out" what to do with low performing assets.  They know exactly what they are doing with them.  Controlling the regional season pass markets, that drives guaranteed cash flow, which inspires shareholder confidence.  Shareholders don't see financial performance by individual ski area in the Vail portfolio.  They just see overall performance.   I think they'll be completely fine holding the NH properties as lost leaders to control market share.  Apologize once a year blaming the weather.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 29, 2021)

Considering all the hate..spewed all over the country at Vail...i dont see there strategy as a good thing...certainly not in the long run.
Hear anything good about them???


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 29, 2021)

But then again..they apparently are no longer a ski company..


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Considering all the hate..spewed all over the country at Vail...i dont see there strategy as a good thing...certainly not in the long run.
> Hear anything good about them???



Next year will be the barometer.  They sold an insane amount of passes this season.  They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out.  Just bought out that entire market.  

So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines.  That's what matters


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 29, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I'm old.  I remember the Snow Lake Lodge when it was the premier place in Southern Vermont with the George Jetson saucer lift over the pond and the geyser in the pond with people hiking it and skiing it in the spring.   The Mixing Bowl beginner lift on a track.  The 2-seater gondola where you didn't need to take your skis off.  Heated outdoor swimming pool and indoor skating rink inside the base lodge.  The Jets even had a good football team.


2 seater gondola where you can keep your skis on?! 


deadheadskier said:


> Next year will be the barometer.  They sold an insane amount of passes this season.  They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out.  Just bought out that entire market.
> 
> So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines.  That's what matters


yep you hit the Nail on the head.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Next year will be the barometer.  They sold an insane amount of passes this season.  They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out.  Just bought out that entire market.
> 
> So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines.  That's what matters


Yea...I think the number of people that will complain but still buy a pass because it is "cheap" will still vastly outweigh the number of people that will go elsewhere. In the grand scheme of things, the NH market that they're neglecting the most is only a tiny fraction of their overall portfolio. As long as overall numbers are good, stock-holders and the board will have no clue that there are major issues and dislike of the way Vail does things.


----------



## abc (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't see Vail trying to "figure out" what to do with low performing assets. They know exactly what they are doing with them. Controlling the regional season pass markets, that drives guaranteed cash flow, which inspires shareholder confidence.


I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.

If Vail is holding on to NH resorts to "control regional season pass market", they would need to do whatever it takes to keep the existing customer base from evaporating. Given the past 2 year's performance, they didn't even do the minimum required to hang on to their existing customers. Some are leaving for other mountains nearby.



> I think they'll be completely fine holding the NH properties as lost leaders to control market share. Apologize once a year blaming the weather.


It's ok to holding on to the NH properties as lose leaders. But it only works if they're able to count on those pass sales as "market share". Having a shorter season and lower percentage open than all of their neighbors 2 years in a row doesn't encourage future pass purchase.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The natives are getting  restless in the west
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/vail-resorts-hold-vail-resorts-accountable



While absolutely still a Hail Mary (most change.org or similar campaigns are), this probably is the best way to challenge the Vail problem with it's focus on blaming Vail as inadequate stewards of facilities on public lands and having a negative impact on local communities.

And maybe that's how things should be approached here in New Hampshire.  Get enough local business and public scrutiny of Vail operations on public lands.  State lands in the case of Sunapee. Federal lands in the case of Wildcat.  Break the leases and return the recreation to the state. 

How cool would that be?  A Cannon, Sunapee, Wildcat pass with affordable NH resident pricing and competitive regional pricing. There would be good affordable skiing with reasonable driving access from virtually anywhere in the State.  All three areas just about the skiing and mountain recreation activities.  No resort bullshit.  

I don't think you could call yourself a loyal granite stater and not buy that pass.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.
> 
> If Vail is holding on to NH resorts to "control regional season pass market", they would need to do whatever it takes to keep the existing customer base from evaporating. Given the past 2 year's performance, they didn't even do the minimum required to hang on to their existing customers. Some are leaving for other mountains nearby.
> 
> ...



A minor reduction in pass sales due to poor performance at the NH areas can be easily tolerated.  Especially if they are run on an austerity budget. 

Remember, an Epic Pass sale still in most circumstances means some other company isn't getting pass revenue.  The loss leaders are almost a defensive position in that regard towards Ikon, Boyne etc. 

So Vail gambles that the sheer number of ski areas available in a convenient enough location at an affordable price drives the market. 

So far they are right.


----------



## abc (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Remember, an Epic Pass sale still in most circumstances means some other company isn't getting pass revenue. The loss leaders are almost a defensive position in that regard towards Ikon, Boyne etc.


If you're suggesting Vail holding onto Wildcat and Attitash to prevent Alterra from buying it, I can understand. 

On the other hand, running them "on an austerity budget" also drives many away. Especially with several Alterra mountains at various distance away (e.g. Sunday River pretty close by). Casual skiers who had a bad experience during this year's could choose to go IKON next year.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> While absolutely still a Hail Mary (most change.org or similar campaigns are), this probably is the best way to challenge the Vail problem with it's focus on blaming Vail as inadequate stewards of facilities on public lands and having a negative impact on local communities.
> 
> And maybe that's how things should be approached here in New Hampshire.  Get enough local business and public scrutiny of Vail operations on public lands.  State lands in the case of Sunapee. Federal lands in the case of Wildcat.  Break the leases and return the recreation to the state.
> 
> ...


The USFS can’t afford a fight with a corporation as powerful as Vail.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> The USFS can’t afford a fight with a corporation as powerful as Vail.



I do not need this kind of negativity in my life


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 29, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> 2 seater gondola where you can keep your skis on?!


My mom and sister riding it...


----------



## skef (Dec 29, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> My mom and sister riding it...


Early bubble chair?


----------



## skimagic (Dec 29, 2021)

skef said:


> Early bubble chair?


and they had two of them


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> My mom and sister riding it...


I just hope to god that someone during that period did lines off of leather go go boots in the lodge.


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> While absolutely still a Hail Mary (most change.org or similar campaigns are), this probably is the best way to challenge the Vail problem with it's focus on blaming Vail as inadequate stewards of facilities on public lands and having a negative impact on local communities.
> 
> And maybe that's how things should be approached here in New Hampshire.  Get enough local business and public scrutiny of Vail operations on public lands.  State lands in the case of Sunapee. Federal lands in the case of Wildcat.  Break the leases and return the recreation to the state.
> 
> ...


Yes, Cannon, Sunape, Wildcat on one pass. That would be good. But let’s have a reasonable rate for us MA folks as well......we love you NH.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 29, 2021)

skef said:


> Early bubble chair?


Kinda, but it opened like a sideways clam shell.  They also had a few bubble chairs (non-detachable).


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I just hope to god that someone during that period did lines off of leather go go boots in the lodge.


I'll have to ckeck some other pics and see whats going on in the background.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Next year will be the barometer.  They sold an insane amount of passes this season.  They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out.  Just bought out that entire market.
> 
> So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines.  That's what matters


Remember that this year's "sales increases" came as a result of a pretty significant discount.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The natives are getting  restless in the west
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/vail-resorts-hold-vail-resorts-accountable


Yeah, I hear that, but a dirty little secret is that the USFS gets paid for every skier/rider day.  So they aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them...and feeds them a lot.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> I just hope to god that someone during that period did lines off of leather go go boots in the lodge.


Hopefully while sitting in a sunken conversation pit or around a table with a hookah and plates of fondue.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 29, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Kinda, but it opened like a sideways clam shell.  They also had a few bubble chairs (non-detachable).


Like a sideways clam shell?


----------



## Edd (Dec 30, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The natives are getting  restless in the west
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/vail-resorts-hold-vail-resorts-accountable


I used to be a Stevens Pass skier; that lift ops situation is a nightmare. Glad they’re trying the petition and hope the Wildcat locals do something similar. The bad press for Vail could be worth it. Stevens Pass, when I skied it in the 90s, was a pretty basic ski area like Wildcat, actually.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Yes, Cannon, Sunape, Wildcat on one pass. That would be good. But let’s have a reasonable rate for us MA folks as well......we love you NH.


I had the Cannon/ Sunapee NH residents pass for a few years. Only skied Sunapee a few times as it wasn't much closer for me than Cannon at the time. Really never liked Sunapee. Back then it wasn't well maintained (but they did have a lenient trail open policy)  and then after when run be the Okemo folks they groomed the fuck out of it and it seemed if the trail wasn't groomed it wasn't open. Haven't been since Fail has been running it.


----------



## machski (Dec 30, 2021)

Wife and I are at Crotched today.  I cannot say this is the best performing Vail mountain in NH.  Based just on what I saw and skied earlier December and what they have open now, Sunapee is far out performing here.  Crotched is currently disjointed, cannot easily ski between Rocket terrain and West Double (basically have to skate across base from Rocket to Double.  And now it looks like West Double is on MX hold and Rocket line growing.  With the race training, can't believe Valley Quad not spinning.  If the new years forecast pans, not sure Crotched will be able to stay open.  A lot of thin cover sections already.


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 30, 2021)

machski said:


> Wife and I are at Crotched today.  I cannot say this is the best performing Vail mountain in NH.  Based just on what I saw and skied earlier December and what they have open now, Sunapee is far out performing here.  Crotched is currently disjointed, cannot easily ski between Rocket terrain and West Double (basically have to skate across base from Rocket to Double.  And now it looks like West Double is on MX hold and Rocket line growing.  With the race training, can't believe Valley Quad not spinning.  If the new years forecast pans, not sure Crotched will be able to stay open.  A lot of thin cover sections already.


I don't think Valley has been inspected. Park lift certainly hasn't been. Or at this point it may just be that they basically didn't hire any lifties with 20 something openings. I guess nobody wants to work outside for $13 an hour.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Dec 30, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> Considering all the hate..spewed all over the country at Vail...i dont see there strategy as a good thing...certainly not in the long run.
> Hear anything good about them???



As long as the Cha ching sound from pass sales is louder than sound of the hate, they wont care.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 30, 2021)

Pretty much


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)




----------



## MadKitty (Dec 30, 2021)

Looks like crotched might be Wed-Sun and Holidays this season...


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

9


MadKitty said:


> View attachment 52513
> Looks like crotched might be Wed-Sun and Holidays this season...


Let's see if they do thr same in the mwv....


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> 9
> 
> Let's see if they do thr same in the mwv....


Most likely Wildcat too... just a guess... Attitash seems to be making more of an effort this season.


----------



## Edd (Dec 30, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> View attachment 52513
> Looks like crotched might be Wed-Sun and Holidays this season...


Have they announced that I wonder?


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> Have they announced that I wonder?


Yes


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

Also looks like they're quietly ditching midnight madness


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 30, 2021)

Dear Crotched Mountain family,
It has been a challenging start to the 2021-22 ski season here at Crotched Mountain. Mother Nature has been historically stingy with natural snow and consistent snowmaking temperatures, and we’ve had to contend with significant hurdles in regard to the COVID pandemic and staffing.
As a result of these challenges, we have made the difficult decision to amend our schedule of operations to Wednesday through Sunday, beginning January 1, with the following hours: Wed. 9-5; Thurs-Sat. 9-9; Sun. 9-5. This change to a five-day schedule will allow our hard-working resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests on those days. We will continue working toward solutions to these challenges and will reassess our operations strategy as the season progresses, so please stay tuned to our website and social media channels for updates.
I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize the dedication of our resort teams and the continued support from our guests that we’ve received thus far this season. We have truly all been in this together, and that unity has been – and will continue to be – vital to our success. We remain committed to doing everything in our power to make this the best season it can be.
Thank you again, and all the very best wishes for a safe and happy New Year.
Susan Donnelly
General Manager
Crotched Mountain Resort


----------



## Edd (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> 9
> 
> Let's see if they do thr same in the mwv....


On Wildcat’s page for selling tickets I can’t seem to look beyond December.


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> On Wildcat’s page for selling tickets I can’t seem to look beyond December.


Hopefully shutting down for the season. I’ll buy the mountain... if only I had the capital!


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> On Wildcat’s page for selling tickets I can’t seem to look beyond December.


That's not good. I'm going full karen if they don't run 7 days.


----------



## Edd (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> That's not good. I'm going full karen if they don't run 7 days.


Yeah, that’s the point that I throw a proper fit as a weekday skier. I’ll call for a refund, get denied (I’ve used one day at Sunapee), and just hate Vail a lot I guess.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2021)

So while crotched is cutting hours and have very few runs open, pats peak right up the road has 86% of their terrain open and all lifts running. The place has been mobbed this week when I have been there( just skinning up). Lift lines don’t look too bad but the parking lot has been over full. Coverage has been decent. Today was soft like spring skiing. It’s fun to be going up breeze (green off the top) and seeing all the beginners coming down. Tons of L1A’s(level 1 Asians). Saw a few boarders with pillow pets strapped to their asses. People carrying their skis down. Multiple skier pileups.


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 30, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Dear Crotched Mountain family,
> It has been a challenging start to the 2021-22 ski season here at Crotched Mountain. Mother Nature has been historically stingy with natural snow and consistent snowmaking temperatures, and we’ve had to contend with significant hurdles in regard to the COVID pandemic and staffing.
> As a result of these challenges, we have made the difficult decision to amend our schedule of operations to Wednesday through Sunday, beginning January 1, with the following hours: Wed. 9-5; Thurs-Sat. 9-9; Sun. 9-5. This change to a five-day schedule will allow our hard-working resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests on those days. We will continue working toward solutions to these challenges and will reassess our operations strategy as the season progresses, so please stay tuned to our website and social media channels for updates.
> I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize the dedication of our resort teams and the continued support from our guests that we’ve received thus far this season. We have truly all been in this together, and that unity has been – and will continue to be – vital to our success. We remain committed to doing everything in our power to make this the best season it can be.
> ...


Wow.....Given they specifically sell a mid-week value pass how are they able to do this without offering a refund for people who bought that option.

With the bad start to the season at Wildcat and Attitash would they go even further and decide to concentrate staff and operations at just Attitash?


----------



## NYDB (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> That's not good. I'm going full karen if they don't run 7 days.





Edd said:


> Yeah, that’s the point that I throw a proper fit as a weekday skier. I’ll call for a refund, get denied (I’ve used one day at Sunapee), and just hate Vail a lot I guess.


Yeah wtf is that bullshit.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So while crotched is cutting hours and have very few runs open, pats peak right up the road has 86% of their terrain open and all lifts running. The place has been mobbed this week when I have been there( just skinning up). Lift lines don’t look too bad but the parking lot has been over full. Coverage has been decent. Today was soft like spring skiing. It’s fun to be going up breeze (green off the top) and seeing all the beginners coming down. Tons of L1A’s(level 1 Asians). Saw a few boarders with pillow pets strapped to their asses. People carrying their skis down. Multiple skier pileups.



lol that sounds horrible but its good places like pats peak exist


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2021)

But wait folks!  In appreciation of your patience during these trying times, we are going to drop next year's pass price by ANOTHER 10%!!!


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol that sounds horrible but its good places like pats peak exist


It is actually pretty funny. Yes I am laughing at someone else’s expense. We have all been there at one point. No high speed crashes. No injuries just slow motion.


----------



## Edd (Dec 30, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Dear Crotched Mountain family,
> It has been a challenging start to the 2021-22 ski season here at Crotched Mountain. Mother Nature has been historically stingy with natural snow and consistent snowmaking temperatures, and we’ve had to contend with significant hurdles in regard to the COVID pandemic and staffing.
> As a result of these challenges, we have made the difficult decision to amend our schedule of operations to Wednesday through Sunday, beginning January 1, with the following hours: Wed. 9-5; Thurs-Sat. 9-9; Sun. 9-5. This change to a five-day schedule will allow our hard-working resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests on those days. We will continue working toward solutions to these challenges and will reassess our operations strategy as the season progresses, so please stay tuned to our website and social media channels for updates.
> I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize the dedication of our resort teams and the continued support from our guests that we’ve received thus far this season. We have truly all been in this together, and that unity has been – and will continue to be – vital to our success. We remain committed to doing everything in our power to make this the best season it can be.
> ...


Was this an email? When did it come out? This is a fucking bait and switch for Crotched homers.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

As much as I find the antivax crowd to be insufferable, maybe ots time vail took a look at their policy regarding employees and vaccines. Can't believe I just said that.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 30, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol that sounds horrible but its good places like pats peak exist


For what Pats Peak is, they hit it out of the park.  Perfect place for family and beginner daytrips.  They have now gotten more attention and crowds with the Indy pass.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> As much as I find the antivax crowd to be insufferable, maybe ots time vail took a look at their policy regarding employees and vaccines. Can't believe I just said that.



Before doing that, I'd raise pay rates on positions in most need and offer fat referral bonuses to employees who can recruit friends.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> For what Pats Peak is, they hit it out of the park.  Perfect place for family and beginner daytrips.  They have now gotten more attention and crowds with the Indy pass.



It's a first class operation to be certain.  They have their business dialed.  Best lodge and one of the best ski bars in New England IMO as well.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Before doing that, I'd raise pay rates on positions in most need and offer fat referral bonuses to employees who can recruit friends.


If they didn't pay dog shit I would probably pick up a part time job to help out. I know their systems and stuff from before but I'm not selling my precious time for their rates.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> Dear Crotched Mountain family,
> It has been a challenging start to the 2021-22 ski season here at Crotched Mountain. Mother Nature has been historically stingy with natural snow and consistent snowmaking temperatures, and we’ve had to contend with significant hurdles in regard to the COVID pandemic and staffing.
> As a result of these challenges, we have made the difficult decision to amend our schedule of operations to Wednesday through Sunday, beginning January 1, with the following hours: Wed. 9-5; Thurs-Sat. 9-9; Sun. 9-5. This change to a five-day schedule will allow our hard-working resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests on those days. We will continue working toward solutions to these challenges and will reassess our operations strategy as the season progresses, so please stay tuned to our website and social media channels for updates.
> I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize the dedication of our resort teams and the continued support from our guests that we’ve received thus far this season. We have truly all been in this together, and that unity has been – and will continue to be – vital to our success. We remain committed to doing everything in our power to make this the best season it can be.
> ...


Wow, just wow.


----------



## oldfartrider (Dec 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, just wow.


It’s not surprising at all. Letting go of all the unvaxed staff was a mistake. Most businesses are hurting for employees and that move eliminated some good people. I can’t imagine the pay is great and also not permanent, so what is the draw to working that job?  I’m amazed they have been able to open at all.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, just wow.


WC will be next.  
Lift Ops are already covering both  places....
Not a good sign


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> Yeah, that’s the point that I throw a proper fit as a weekday skier. I’ll call for a refund, get denied (I’ve used one day at Sunapee), and just hate Vail a lot I guess.


I was going to say--discounted Epic or not, the deal was 7-days a week during season.  If Crotched was one's home mountain that would be B.S.  I am not sure which is worse--closure a couple days a week or limping along like Snowbird who does not have enough staff to run all the lifts so whole sections of the resort remain closed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So while crotched is cutting hours and have very few runs open, pats peak right up the road has 86% of their terrain open and all lifts running. The place has been mobbed this week when I have been there( just skinning up). Lift lines don’t look too bad but the parking lot has been over full. Coverage has been decent. Today was soft like spring skiing. It’s fun to be going up breeze (green off the top) and seeing all the beginners coming down. Tons of L1A’s(level 1 Asians). Saw a few boarders with pillow pets strapped to their asses. People carrying their skis down. Multiple skier pileups.


I agree that Pats Peak is awesome.  It is a good mountain for its size.  There are some great steep runs off the top.  The facilities are nice and the management is great.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> But wait folks!  In appreciation of your patience during these trying times, we are going to drop next year's pass price by ANOTHER 10%!!!


That's EXACTLY what they will do.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

oldfartrider said:


> It’s not surprising at all. Letting go of all the unvaxed staff was a mistake. Most businesses are hurting for employees and that move eliminated some good people. I can’t imagine the pay is great and also not permanent, so what is the draw to working that job?  I’m amazed they have been able to open at all.


Let's not go down the vax/anti-vax rabbit hole again.....


----------



## oldfartrider (Dec 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I was going to say--discounted Epic or not, the deal was 7-days a week during season.  If Crotched was one's home mountain that would be B.S.  I am not sure which is worse--closure a couple days a week or limping along like Snowbird who does not have enough staff to run all the lifts so whole sections of the resort remain closed.


Rumor is Okemo won’t be able to open entire mountain either cause short staffed.


----------



## RH29 (Dec 30, 2021)

*CROOKS!*


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 30, 2021)

I think we are going to see a lot of staffing issues in the coming weeks at Vail and non Vail mountains, covid is surging right now.


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I was going to say--discounted Epic or not, the deal was 7-days a week during season.  If Crotched was one's home mountain that would be B.S.  I am not sure which is worse--closure a couple days a week or limping along like Snowbird who does not have enough staff to run all the lifts so whole sections of the resort remain closed.


Yes, the assumption was 7 days a week and many people bought restricted passes because they only planned to ski mid week (I’m not one, but sure there are many).
If they announced back in the spring Crotched (and Wildcat??)  would be limited days and others 7 days you can factor that in to your plans. But changing after people have purchased is not acceptable.  

It actually makes some business sense, I did one midweek day at Crotched last year and was super quiet. I went in to get lunch. The lady on the door took my details for Covid contact testing, then seeing there was no one in the cafe she came round behind the counter and got my bowl of chili. Then she went to the till and took the payment. Then she headed back to the door to wait for the next person.  So its probably a sensible plan, BUT it needed to be announced before people forked out their $$ for their passes.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> I think we are going to see a lot of staffing issues in the coming weeks at Vail and non Vail mountains, covid is surging right now.


Alta had to cancel its Annual NYE Parade due to an outbreak.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Yes, the assumption was 7 days a week and many people bought restricted passes because they only planned to ski mid week (I’m not one, but sure there are many).
> If they announced back in the spring Crotched (and Wildcat??)  would be limited days and others 7 days you can factor that in to your plans. But changing after people have purchased is not acceptable.
> 
> It actually makes some business sense, I did one midweek day at Crotched last year and was super quiet. I went in to get lunch. The lady on the door took my details for Covid contact testing, then seeing there was no one in the cafe she came round behind the counter and got my bowl of chili. Then she went to the till and took the payment. Then she headed back to the door to wait for the next person.  So its probably a sensible plan, BUT it needed to be announced before people forked out their $$ for their passes.


Right.  Unless it was announced beforehand it is not right.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2021)

Here's the real kick in the pants. The employees they have will be forced to work Wednesday though Sunday and the mountain will be closed on their days off. MAYBE they get one day off Wednesday through Friday to ski, but at the cost of reduced hours. So they're going to have even bigger hiring issues in the future.  

If I were a Crotched employee right now, the second that communication came out, I'd be filling out applications at Pats or Ragged.  

A bigger problem than lack of confidence in a business by consumers is a lack of confidence in potential workers.


----------



## Zand (Dec 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> So while crotched is cutting hours and have very few runs open, pats peak right up the road has 86% of their terrain open and all lifts running. The place has been mobbed this week when I have been there( just skinning up). Lift lines don’t look too bad but the parking lot has been over full. Coverage has been decent. Today was soft like spring skiing. It’s fun to be going up breeze (green off the top) and seeing all the beginners coming down. Tons of L1A’s(level 1 Asians). Saw a few boarders with pillow pets strapped to their asses. People carrying their skis down. Multiple skier pileups.


Wachusett had the "world's largest lesson" last week and I can confirm that it was just like this. Lol


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

I'm seriously paranoid this will happen at Wildcat. I don't care if they shut the bar, food, lessons, whatever just keep that fucking quad spinning 7 days and roll out the obvious stuff. Maybe make some more snow? Even then, just spin the quad.

The biggest draw for Crotched in the past is so many could make an easy drive, get a fun little hill worth a 4 hour session and move on with your day. Pretty much if you wanted to ski it was there and open...except Sunday PM. That is gone now and I bet it never comes back under Vail. 

Gunstock on a multi mtn pass like the White Mtn Superpass would get alot of people to make the switch. Gunstock would fill that Crotched slot nicely


----------



## thebigo (Dec 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I'm seriously paranoid this will happen at Wildcat. I don't care if they shut the bar, food, lessons, whatever just keep that fucking quad spinning 7 days and roll out the obvious stuff. Maybe make some more snow? Even then, just spin the quad.
> 
> The biggest draw for Crotched in the past is so many could make an easy drive, get a fun little hill worth a 4 hour session and move on with your day. Pretty much if you wanted to ski it was there and open...except Sunday PM. That is gone now and I bet it never comes back under Vail.
> 
> Gunstock on a multi mtn pass like the White Mtn Superpass would get alot of people to make the switch. Gunstock would fill that Crotched slot nicely


Ski ragged next year, I got your first five beers and probably many more.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 30, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Ski ragged next year, I got your first five beers and probably many more.


I had that pass two years ago and what a goddamn gem that place is. I had bought the Powderhorn Pass the year before and found myself in NH so it became a Ragged Pass! The price is right. Its that or Gunstock midweek and Cannon


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2021)

I'll be skiing Gunstock tomorrow afternoon with my son. I couldn't be happier with my decision to go Gunstock plus Indy Pass given all that we are seeing unfold with Epic Fail. I believe Gunstock has more terrain open right now than any Vail NH ski area. 

Ragged is the better hill, but not by much when the trees aren't in play.  I had a pass there 2008-9-10 and loved it. 

But it's 1:30 to Ragged vs 1:05 to Gunstock for me.  That makes a big difference with early AM seasonal lesson programs for the kids.


----------



## abc (Dec 30, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Given they specifically sell a mid-week value pass how are they able to do this without offering a refund for people who bought that option.


I bet you'll get it (refund) if you do ask. It's a "non-performance" that voids the contract.



Edd said:


> Yeah, that’s the point that I throw a proper fit as a weekday skier. I’ll call for a refund, get denied (I’ve used one day at Sunapee), and just hate Vail a lot I guess.


That's how big corporation can get away with such shit. Their customer just moan about it but not DEMAND their money back. 

You don't even have to be impacted. They have no way to tell who's impacted and who's not. But the impacted skiers have legitimate cause to get a refund. As such, everyone living in the northeast would qualify.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's the real kick in the pants. The employees they have will be forced to work Wednesday though Sunday and the mountain will be closed on their days off. MAYBE they get one day off Wednesday through Friday to ski, but at the cost of reduced hours. So they're going to have even bigger hiring issues in the future.
> 
> If I were a Crotched employee right now, the second that communication came out, I'd be filling out applications at Pats or Ragged.
> 
> A bigger problem than lack of confidence in a business by consumers is a lack of confidence in potential workers.


I heard that a lot of ex Sunapee instructors are already at pats this season.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 31, 2021)

I swear vail is the best thing to happen to places like pats ever!


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 31, 2021)

A good article from Colorado about the shit show that is Vail resorts was published today:

https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/31/labor-shortage-vail-resorts-ski-areas-understaffed-omicron/

It's not just NH, their operations are horrendous all over. I bet it gets even worse next year, who is going to want to work for them? Especially when Vail's competitors are so much more functional.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2021)

Broomfield mothership could be pretty close to actually being on fire. Like real fire. The two towns just north got destroyed last night. 75+mph wind with raging fires


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

Sad times..


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Broomfield mothership could be pretty close to actually being on fire. Like real fire. The two towns just north got destroyed last night. 75+mph wind with raging fires


Climate change is picking up momentum now. It’s getting very fucking real.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Broomfield mothership could be pretty close to actually being on fire. Like real fire. The two towns just north got destroyed last night. 75+mph wind with raging fires


Yup,

One of my Mount Snow friend's mother in-law lives just outside Boulder and per a text he sent our ski friends group this morning, his MIL's house was lost to the fires last night.. Crazy stuff going on out there now


----------



## snoseek (Dec 31, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> A good article from Colorado about the shit show that is Vail resorts was published today:
> 
> https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/31/labor-shortage-vail-resorts-ski-areas-understaffed-omicron/
> 
> It's not just NH, their operations are horrendous all over. I bet it gets even worse next year, who is going to want to work for them? Especially when Vail's competitors are so much more functional.


They will milk omichron for every last drop. It's a convenient excuse


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 31, 2021)

snoseek said:


> They will milk omichron for every last drop. It's a convenient excuse


As long as they keep selling passes, i'm not sure it matters.   As f'ed up as some of this stuff is, I feel like this "vail sucks" stuff is the case of the very loud vocal minority....


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> As long as they keep selling passes, i'm not sure it matters.   As f'ed up as some of this stuff is, I feel like this "vail sucks" stuff is the case of the very loud vocal minority....


That is because the vast majority of Epic passholders ski ten days or less.  The serious skiers, like here, expect more.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

A lot of people i talk to on the lifts have no idea what is going on with vail.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 31, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> A lot of people i talk to on the lifts have no idea what is going on with vail.


I'm not 1 bit surprised by this...


----------



## snoseek (Dec 31, 2021)

Come ride the chairs in nh. Sure we're a small piece of the pie but the majority here are pretty disappointed.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

I bet. Most people think this is all weather related...
Next week starting monday will be prime snow making weather...we shall see


----------



## snoseek (Dec 31, 2021)

I mean I've not been to wildcat but those locals have internet and a quick glance will tell you cannon has 42 trails open vs wildcats 7. I expect cannon will pick up some traffic next year along with ikon and new england pass


----------



## PAabe (Dec 31, 2021)

Most people in my area that ski are aware that Vail owns Roundtop have been unhappy with several things


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That is because the vast majority of Epic passholders ski ten days or less.  The serious skiers, like here, expect more.


Which is why Mega-passes aren’t all they are cracked up to be... you get what you pay for


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2021)

Park City this Morning. Fuck that


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 31, 2021)

I bet they implode but not for several years. The online chatter about Vail resorts has become overwhelmingly negative within the past year, even on platforms that are more likely to attract casual skiers such as instagram and facebook. Once pass sales fall I expect them to respond with with further austerity measures to keep quarterly profits up. This will drive more skiers away. A private company would not be incentivized to be this shortsighted.


----------



## FBGM (Dec 31, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> I bet they implode but not for several years. The online chatter about Vail resorts has become overwhelmingly negative within the past year, even on platforms that are more likely to attract casual skiers such as instagram and facebook. Once pass sales fall I expect them to respond with with further austerity measures to keep quarterly profits up. This will drive more skiers away. A private company would not be incentivized to be this shortsighted.


They will turn comments off IG soon. Surprised they haven’t already. The robot that runs the accounts probably didn’t do it yet. 

They remove any negative Facebook comments. Done that for years now


----------



## chuckstah (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> They will turn comments off IG soon. Surprised they haven’t already. The robot that runs the accounts probably didn’t do it yet.
> 
> They remove any negative Facebook comments. Done that for years now


Wildcat regularly deletes most all of my IG comments.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> View attachment 52522
> 
> Park City this Morning. Fuck that


What are they in line for? Omicron with a side of three runs for the day?


----------



## elks (Dec 31, 2021)

They just closed on 3 more resorts today: Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel ski area.


----------



## kendo (Dec 31, 2021)

MadKitty said:


> A good article from Colorado about the shit show that is Vail resorts was published today:
> 
> https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/31/labor-shortage-vail-resorts-ski-areas-understaffed-omicron/
> 
> It's not just NH, their operations are horrendous all over. I bet it gets even worse next year, who is going to want to work for them? Especially when Vail's competitors are so much more functional.



that article by Jason is a good counterpoint to this article a couple days ago. . . heavy on the Katz revenue building history / wall street appeasing culture but light on the actual conditions at the acquired resorts and the sustainability of the Katz scheme. 









						Rob Katz Changed Skiing. What Comes Next for Vail Resorts?
					

“Rob changed a company, changed a business practice, added a product, he changed an entire business model, and an industry along with it.”




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## gittist (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Broomfield mothership could be pretty close to actually being on fire. Like real fire. The two towns just north got destroyed last night. 75+mph wind with raging fires


The fire and the fact that many people are losing their homes really is tragic, but I wonder how people will feel if Vail HQ burns down and what the impact would be?


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 31, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> What are they in line for? Omicron with a side of three runs for the day?


No way would I be standing in that line,


----------



## drjeff (Dec 31, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> A lot of people i talk to on the lifts have no idea what is going on with vail.


Truth is just like if one doesn't partake in much news media they don't know how "scared" they're supposed to be about COVID or how racist everyone apparently is, if one doesn't partake in much ski/riding related social media, they won't have any idea.

Heck, a bunch of folks who do partake in some ski/riding social media don't know much about it or just some basic ski area operations things... I use the Skiology social media pages as a prime example of some of the lack of knowledge from the operations realities of skiing as a prime example for some of its members....


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

Hmm..yup..a bit crowded


----------



## MadKitty (Dec 31, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Truth is just like if one doesn't partake in much news media they don't know how "scared" they're supposed to be about COVID or how racist everyone apparently is, if one doesn't partake in much ski/riding related social media, they won't have any idea.
> 
> Heck, a bunch of folks who do partake in some ski/riding social media don't know much about it or just some basic ski area operations things... I use the Skiology social media pages as a prime example of some of the lack of knowledge from the operations realities of skiing as a prime example for some of its members....


That may be true at Mount Snow, but that is a resort Vail is actually bothering to operate in a reasonable capacity. Mount Snow also likely receives the highest percentage of casual skiers of any Vail area in New England. The plebian areas in NH are a constant Vail bitch fest. The casual skiers join in to because it's easy to see the surrounding non-Vail areas all have way more trails/lifts open. You even hear employees bitching about Vail in NH.

Austerity will come Mount Snow's way once pass sales fall. It's inevitable given the covid induced outdoor recreation bubble we're in. Quarterly profits above long term viability.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2021)

FBGM said:


> View attachment 52522
> 
> Park City this Morning. Fuck that


I can top that.  Deer Valley the other day.  So much for that "limited ticket sales" thing.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 31, 2021)

Why do people even bother to ski when the lines are that bad. I’d turn around and leave the moment I got there.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 31, 2021)

killwhat said:


> They just bought 3 more resorts: Seven Springs Mountain Resort, *Hidden Valley Resort* and Laurel ski area.


that's a strategic acquisition. Smart move to hedge against ranch dressing futures.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I can top that.  Deer Valley the other day.  So much for that "limited ticket sales" thing.


Park city looked worse as it was wider mass of humanity.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 31, 2021)

It's all just winter Disney Land & Six Flags to them


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 31, 2021)

Wildcat was way understaffed today.  Kids said they didn't have corrals set up and no one was checking tix....
They said it was OK but they don't want to go back until it's more open and better staffed....


----------



## Edd (Dec 31, 2021)

I haven't been to Catitash yet this season but the idea of riding their lifts is starting to make me nervous.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Why do people even bother to ski when the lines are that bad. I’d turn around and leave the moment I got there.


That decision probably depends on how far your drive was and if you committed to buying a day pass. Most of those people are most likely on a vacation they spent big $ on and probably don’t know any different. If you’re an urban weekend warrior your whole life is spent in lines and in traffic, it’s how they roll.


----------



## gittist (Dec 31, 2021)

"... So much for that "limited ticket sales" thing...."

It's Machiavellian marketing.  A lot of people will rush tight out (or online) when Vail puts out there are only a few tickets to be sold . The limit is probably so high it'll never be reached.  

The weather in a lot of places is making for a challenging season on top of the the Vail fail.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2021)

Xwhaler saw this sign at the Littleton Walmart today.  

Choice A. Work 3 graveyard shifts stocking shelves at Walmart on likely a fixed schedule making $19.50/hr

Choice B.  Make snow in the freezing cold at Wildcat with a who knows what your schedule will be making $13/hr

But sure, let's continue to blame Covid on staffing issues


----------



## machski (Dec 31, 2021)

Kingslug20 said:


> I bet. Most people think this is all weather related...
> Next week starting monday will be prime snow making weather...we shall see


For a couple days, then a warm up again.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

Report showing wednesday warm..then the rest cold..but this changes every day..so who knows..


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 31, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I mean I've not been to wildcat but those locals have internet and a quick glance will tell you cannon has 42 trails open vs wildcats 7. I expect cannon will pick up some traffic next year along with ikon and new england pass



cannon on thursday was a masterclass in running a ski area during a holiday week in a low snow year. lots of terrain. lots of lifts. extremely comfortable capacity limit in place resulting in minimal lift lines. it was a great day of skiing i am very impressed with them right now. the terrain gets a bit boring for me when the trees arent in play but beggars cant be choosers right now. great day of 2000 ft groomer runs. had the tram to myself once lol


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 31, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> That decision probably depends on how far your drive was and if you committed to buying a day pass. Most of those people are most likely on a vacation they spent big $ on and probably don’t know any different. If you’re an urban weekend warrior your whole life is spent in lines and in traffic, it’s how they roll.



not all of us. if youre willing to leave nyc at 3 am and ski the right lifts at the right places on the right days. its a game of knowing where to avoid and having multiple strategic passes


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> not all of us. if youre willing to leave nyc at 3 am and ski the right lifts at the right places on the right days. its a game of knowing where to avoid and having multiple strategic passes


Of course but the average?


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## ThatGuy (Dec 31, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> Of course but the average?


Kusty is in the 1% of hardcore people for the drives he does from the NYC metro. Gotta respect the commitment.


----------



## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Kusty is in the 1% of hardcore people for the drives he does from the NYC metro. Gotta respect the commitment.


I did it for two years as a teen before I left the east. I’d get out of work on Fridays at 3 and head straight out for Vermont in dumping snow so I can relate…..sort of, it’s been a long time. I wouldn’t do it now, that’s for sure.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2021)

Been doing it for 20 years...3 to 5 hour drives...
Now i have a 1 hour drive but will have a 4 hour drive in the summer to the race track..
Just put on the tunes...and go.
People always ask how you get so many ski days in....wake up early..get in car...drive....


----------



## Katahdin (Jan 1, 2022)

Yet another bad day at Attitash. The triple broke down again before the first chair made it to the top. That leaves just 2 runs off the Yankee and 1 run at Bear.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Been doing it for 20 years...3 to 5 hour drives...
> Now i have a 1 hour drive but will have a 4 hour drive in the summer to the race track..
> Just put on the tunes...and go.
> People always ask how you get so many ski days in....wake up early..get in car...drive....


I admire your dedication. Do you have kids?


----------



## gittist (Jan 1, 2022)

Is there a Colorado forum similar to this one?  

My ski club is planning a trip to Colorado because the Canada was cancelled.  I don't want to put out the $ if Keystone and Breckenridge area as pucked up as Catatash.  I don't have a Instagram account (or Twitter, or Facebook) so I can't log into Epicliftlines.com


----------



## PAabe (Jan 1, 2022)

gittist said:


> Is there a Colorado forum similar to this one?
> 
> My ski club is planning a trip to Colorado because the Canada was cancelled.  I don't want to put out the $ if Keystone and Breckenridge area as pucked up as Catatash.  I don't have a Instagram account (or Twitter, or Facebook) so I can't log into Epicliftlines.com


Try teton gravity Research forums or Ski Talk pugski forums


----------



## ss20 (Jan 1, 2022)

gittist said:


> Is there a Colorado forum similar to this one?
> 
> My ski club is planning a trip to Colorado because the Canada was cancelled.  I don't want to put out the $ if Keystone and Breckenridge area as pucked up as Catatash.  I don't have a Instagram account (or Twitter, or Facebook) so I can't log into Epicliftlines.com



General opinion is that the "flagship" resorts get a lot more attention than the "less privileged" resorts.  Still a lot of annoyances like slow terrain openings, long lines, etc...but you get a resort that is at least functional


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 1, 2022)

gittist said:


> Is there a Colorado forum similar to this one?
> 
> My ski club is planning a trip to Colorado because the Canada was cancelled.  I don't want to put out the $ if Keystone and Breckenridge area as pucked up as Catatash.  I don't have a Instagram account (or Twitter, or Facebook) so I can't log into Epicliftlines.com


When is the trip?  If it's peak season, weekdays should be fine, weekends not so much (except for Keystone night skiing).  Since it's a group trip I assume you can't escape to Loveland or Cooper on the weekend?  At any rate, I have had some great days at both places.


----------



## gittist (Jan 1, 2022)

The proposed trip (details are still a WIP) is at the end of February into March and is Saturday to Saturday so the only possible weekend skiing would a Sunday.  I was skiing Keystone right when the first Summit County COVID case occurred (of course the person had been skiing at Keystone) and enjoyed the area.  I'm not so sure I'd enjoy it if it's being run like the Vail areas in NH are now.

And thank you for the web sites.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I admire your dedication. Do you have kids?


Nope...


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Nope...


That certainly helps


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## thebigo (Jan 1, 2022)

Do not understand you people that regularly hang up 3 - 5 hour drives. 2 hours is my absolute day trip max, need to have a pass mountain within an hour.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2022)

Well..stowe and sb have the best conditions most times..k as well
And there only 1 racetrack for me to go to..


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 1, 2022)

Attitash is going to go broke for giving away free lift tickets when the triple gets stuck.


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## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2022)

Will a Dream Lift Network Someday Span the Vail Valley?
					

While other resorts covet the vast, fast lift infrastructure at Vail and Beaver Creek, locals imagine a chairway to heaven: an aerial public transit network linking both villages and backcountry terrain from East Vail to Eagle-Vail.




					www.vailmag.com


----------



## drjeff (Jan 1, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Do not understand you people that regularly hang up 3 - 5 hour drives. 2 hours is my absolute day trip max, need to have a pass mountain within an hour.



Most of the longer drive folks aren't day tripping. The perspective of 3+ hours when it's one way, ski a couple of days, then drive back home.. Rinse, lather, repeat the next weekend isn't nearly a daunting as 3+ hours, ski all day, 3+ hours back home that same day


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## oldfartrider (Jan 1, 2022)

I day tripped Stowe today. Live in Nashua. What a great day with super nice soft snow and no lift lines. Put in over 25k vert in 5 hours.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 1, 2022)

I have day tripped Killington and Magic (separately) with about a five hour drive each way. It's definitely not for everyone, even for me it's a once a season thing.


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## oldfartrider (Jan 1, 2022)

Wow 5 hours each way is super dedication. That’s a haul


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## PAabe (Jan 1, 2022)

I'll drive 3-4 hours for a day occasionally but boy 287 and the Thruway are really boring drives


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## RH29 (Jan 1, 2022)

Longest I can stomach in a day trip is three hours. As a rule of thumb, never spend more time driving than you do skiing.


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## abc (Jan 1, 2022)

@Smellytele, that article appears from 2017? That's a heck of a long dreamy slumber!


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## Geoff (Jan 1, 2022)

Sunapee is 2 1/2 and Mount Snow is 3 1/4. I’ve been doing those as day trips.   It’s a pretty big change from the condo I owned at Killington for 28 years and share houses before that.   The skiing has sucked so there was no point in doing multiple days for white ribbon of death.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 1, 2022)

Now my summer racing will be 4 hours away..get up and go at 3am...race all day..go home..collapse.
Most people think racing is not tiring...oh..its bloody exhausting..not as much as mogul skiing for sure..but you feel it later.
I dont find driving tiring though..traffic...that sux..that can kill a good day..


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## oldfartrider (Jan 1, 2022)

What kind of racing?


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## PAabe (Jan 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Now my summer racing will be 4 hours away..get up and go at 3am...race all day..go home..collapse.
> Most people think racing is not tiring...oh..its bloody exhausting..not as much as mogul skiing for sure..but you feel it later.
> I dont find driving tiring though..traffic...that sux..that can kill a good day..


Yeah cruising along I dont mind at all, a busy highlight full of cars passing and merging and slowing down and speeding up is a massive pain though

Best time to drive is early before morning rush hour or late way after evening rush hour - crank up the tunes, sit back, relax, and cruise


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Attitash is going to go broke for giving away free lift tickets when the triple gets stuck.


You think they are giving away free lift tickets?  We’re talking about Vail….


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## snoseek (Jan 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> You think they are giving away free lift tickets?  We’re talking about Vail….


They were actively refunding ticket buyers at crotched last week when the lifts broke. Its like they know its become bad but its midseason and they cant do shit about it but throw vouchers.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 1, 2022)

They already have Epic pass holders committed, who cares about a couple day tickets?


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 2, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> What kind of racing?


I decided to get a motorcycle after a 22 year break...zx6R...
They have a track near oneonta you can fly around on...scary fun


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I decided to get a motorcycle after a 22 year break...zx6R...
> They have a track near oneonta you can fly around on...scary fun



Give any thoughts to moving that activity to Loudon NH?   Only about 2:15 from Williston vs 4 hours to Oneonta.   I have a business associate who trains and races out of Loudon on a similar style bike.


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## bigbob (Jan 2, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Sunapee is 2 1/2 and Mount Snow is 3 1/4. I’ve been doing those as day trips.   It’s a pretty big change from the condo I owned at Killington for 28 years and share houses before that.   The skiing has sucked so there was no point in doing multiple days for white ribbon of death.


So how come you aren't in Colorado? Did you accept the job offer?


----------



## ctdubl07 (Jan 2, 2022)

House to house is about 1.50 hrs. The only hell is the 40 min or so with no data. 
Then the kids start getting on my nerves and I want to leave them on the roadside.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I decided to get a motorcycle after a 22 year break...zx6R...
> They have a track near oneonta you can fly around on...scary fun


Ill check that out
Already have my season pass for this track


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 2, 2022)

Not sure if this was posted yet.  Good article.









						Epic crowds are colliding with epic labor shortages at ski areas
					

A labor shortage at ski areas, including Vail Resorts' 34 resorts, has left them understaffed during the holidays and omicron surge.




					coloradosun.com


----------



## Geoff (Jan 2, 2022)

bigbob said:


> So how come you aren't in Colorado? Did you accept the job offer?


The plan was to fly to Colorado tomorrow.  With COVID-19 off the charts there, I pushed it to February 1.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 2, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I bet. Most people think this is all weather related...
> Next week starting monday will be prime snow making weather...we shall see


yeah not so much unfortunately- at least for the more southern mountains.  cold/warm/cold/warm.  I can totally see them saying why blow snow today when it will melt tomorrow...




oldfartrider said:


> I day tripped Stowe today. Live in Nashua. What a great day with super nice soft snow and no lift lines. Put in over 25k vert in 5 hours.


I'll be doing the same next week from londonderry.  hopefully its the same


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jan 2, 2022)

Another deep dive on Vail's problems...









						At Stevens Pass, epic lines, not-so-epic times amid staff shortage | HeraldNet.com
					

Skiers, snowboarders and employees blame owner Vail Resorts for a “dysfunctional” season. Management cites industry-wide issues.




					www.heraldnet.com


----------



## Geoff (Jan 2, 2022)

So how do you find out where the New England Vail resorts are making snow?   I’m used to Killington where it’s an icon on any trail they’ve blown snow on in the last 24 hours.  The Epic Mix iPhone application is pretty useless.  Same for the individual resort web sites.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 2, 2022)

The Monday/Tuesday closure at crotched is such BS. 

Anyone care to guess when the next best snowmaking window is for that mountain? Spoiler: this Monday and Tuesday, when its closed....unless they will have Mtn ops there, which I'd doubt. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt this year because the weather has not been the best for natural snow obviously and at first glance it would seem the same for snowmaking.

Yet Sunapee and crotched opened late with very few trails and still have a very limited number of trails while other similar mountains in the same general area have more trails more snow and opened earlier.

Wachusett has been open since November 50 miles south of any NH Vail Mountain.... Pathetic.

On top of that we get this crotched closure, rumor has it Sunapee is not going to open the lower mountain that has all the terrain parks. Rumor has it Okemo isnt going to open one of their areas- i think its the south face I could be wrong. 

Vail should be ashamed.

I was looking at this pass is a season pass to Sunapee and Crotched, both about an hour so from my house with the opportunity to do a few trips to the other mountains. Cost-effective, close so my kids don't have to sit through 2 hours drives every weekend, I get some variety so I'm not at one mountain every weekend with the opportunity to visit other mountains for gas and hotel costs.  All they had to do to keep me as a customer was not fuck up Sunapee and Crotched.

They have failed. Spectacularly.

Sunapee is crowded but actually not super crowded (see conspiracy theory below) but its an ice sheet with way too many skiers on the trials that are open. no terrain parks that I am aware of. Crotched is better due to the warm weather softening up the snow and ice, but certain trails are scrapped down to ice  and suck  because they are overused- the two trails to get down from the top of the mountain on the right side of the trail map. And you have to ski down them to get to the TINY terrain park they have and to get down from the top.  I was looking forward to having a place close by to take the kids night skiing during the week, and now that isn't happening at crotched anytime soon at least.  I was at Sunapee this past Monday and at Crotched this past wed and friday.

I am convinced that if mother nature doesn't give us some serious help, the more NH mountains will have way less than half their terrain open all year and it will suck because of the insane amount of traffic over it. 

I mean Sunapee has 22 trails open.  WC and Attitash combined have 26 trails open (18 and 8 respectively)  ???????????

Put another way,  Sunapee and crotched have 32 trails open vs. WC and ATSH at 26 trials...????????????

How the hell does that happen? seriously? I cannot get my head around that, unless..... vail has decided the northern most NH mountains wont be big draws anyway so screw them, decided to open Sunapee and crotched just enough to say they are open, while keeping the number of trails open there low enough that people will go to Mt snow and Okemo where there are more trials open, there is alot of pay parking and everything is more expensive- food, drinks, anything really. .

So, I will ski their mountains every chance I get and not spend a dime there.  VAIL SUCKS!


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 2, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So how do you find out where the New England Vail resorts are making snow?   I’m used to Killington where it’s an icon on any trail they’ve blown snow on in the last 24 hours.  The Epic Mix iPhone application is pretty useless.  Same for the individual resort web sites.


also, I cannot find an email about Crotched being closed mon/tues anywhere on the vail app, crotched's website or twitter. I didn't get an email that I can find and I'm a passholder for god sake. 

How was that info disseminated? 

and yeah, the app sucks, it is never accurate for the trails that are open and has only tyht most basic info.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> also, I cannot find an email about Crotched being closed mon/tues anywhere on the vail app, crotched's website or twitter. I didn't get an email that I can find and I'm a passholder for god sake.
> 
> How was that info disseminated?
> 
> and yeah, the app sucks, it is never accurate for the trails that are open and has only tyht most basic info.


They posted in FB from what I saw.


----------



## Quietman (Jan 2, 2022)




----------



## machski (Jan 2, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So how do you find out where the New England Vail resorts are making snow?   I’m used to Killington where it’s an icon on any trail they’ve blown snow on in the last 24 hours.  The Epic Mix iPhone application is pretty useless.  Same for the individual resort web sites.


Apparently Vail doesn't think this is important information to skiers/riders.  The only way is A.  A resort is kind enough to post on their report or social media feed (rare) or B.  You can see it from the webcams.  Complete BS, I do not care for the plain vanilla Vail experience.  All too corporate for me.


----------



## machski (Jan 2, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> also, I cannot find an email about Crotched being closed mon/tues anywhere on the vail app, crotched's website or twitter. I didn't get an email that I can find and I'm a passholder for god sake.
> 
> How was that info disseminated?
> 
> and yeah, the app sucks, it is never accurate for the trails that are open and has only tyht most basic info.


Well Crotched will have night skiing, just Thurs-Sat only and only til 9pm.  Completely sucks.  I do expect them to make snow Mon/Tues, we shall see.  My guess is the snowmaking team (whatever that consists of) has been doing double duty on lifts as well.  Not that it matters much, with only 2 of 4 chairs in operation and the Park Triple likely to not spin at all this year.  Other resorts are having staffing issues, but it is quite muted and not affecting the skiing itself experience to the extent it is at Vail resorts.  Can't expect long time employees to stick around when you axe all of the resort managers and replace with newbies, many of which have never spent time in NE.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm hesitant to defend Vail, but I have to point out that closing the mountain is actually better for snowmaking. 1. If your snowmakers were pulled to other departments or pulled from other departments, they're now at least in theory available to work. 2. Assuming you have someone available to make snow, they won't have to shut down trails to groom them out, they won't have to worry about guests getting in the way, generally it's far easier making snow on a closed section/closed mountain.

If I thought Vail had done it for operational reasons and not staffing, I might be fractionally more sympathetic. At least their horrible mismanagement should make it a little easier on their Mtn Ops crews, or whatever's left of them.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 2, 2022)

The ASC failed and Vail/MTN will too. Only a matter of time.


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## abc (Jan 2, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> The ASC failed and Vail/MTN will too. Only a matter of time.


It's looking more and more likely as time goes by...


----------



## snoseek (Jan 2, 2022)

In regards to wildcat at what point does the forest service have a look at what's going on up there? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to have a somewhat competent operator up there?

The nh resorts got their ass saved last season when we had that long stretch of non rainy weather that came in right about now. They better hope that happens again or the general public will see it clear as day to what it actually is.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 2, 2022)

ABC not finding a contrarian take on Vail failing….must be getting pretty serious lol


----------



## JimG. (Jan 2, 2022)

Good to see Vail still sucks.

When do people wake up and stop buying this "cheap" product. You buy cheap and you get cheap. It's not rocket science.

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."


----------



## zyk (Jan 2, 2022)

snoseek said:


> In regards to wildcat at what point does the forest service have a look at what's going on up there? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to have a somewhat competent operator up there?
> 
> The nh resorts got their ass saved last season when we had that long stretch of non rainy weather that came in right about now. They better hope that happens again or the general public will see it clear as day to what it actually is.


I wonder what the forest service could do if they were so inclined.  Such government agencies often have substantial power,  although Vail has plenty of money...


----------



## slatham (Jan 2, 2022)

From the Stevens Pass article, the Denver Post article, comments here and elsewhere from prior employees, and a high up former employee family member, Vail fired too many local managers and pissed off lower level employees resulting in fewer returning employees. A questionable strategy in the best of times which has been fully exposed by the pandemic-magnifying labor issues. The question will become recourse (very questionable) and season pass holder reaction next season. 

I also wonder if Vail won’t divest some areas that are not core. Wildcat for instance was part of the Peaks acquisition and IMHO wouldn’t have been a target otherwise. Of course then you have the issue of a buyer willing to pay a price Vail will accept.


----------



## abc (Jan 2, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> ABC not finding a contrarian take on Vail failing….must be getting pretty serious lol


Where were you all of last week when I had been arguing the contrarian view that Vail had to jettison NH mountains?


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm concerned that when Vail sells off areas, they'll be stripped of their best assets - snowguns, snowcats, potentially even lift removals. The loss of cash would be easily offset if they maintain their regional monopoly with fewer competitors. Take Roundtop or Liberty out of Southeast PA or one of the three NH resorts out of the loop. Move the working lifts and the snowmaking assets to another regional location, leave just enough to pretend the remaining resort is viable, pass off the next five years of stagnation/closure on the new owners.


----------



## Edd (Jan 2, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'm concerned that when Vail sells off areas, they'll be stripped of their best assets - snowguns, snowcats, potentially even lift removals. The loss of cash would be easily offset if they maintain their regional monopoly with fewer competitors. Take Roundtop or Liberty out of Southeast PA or one of the three NH resorts out of the loop. Move the working lifts and the snowmaking assets to another regional location, leave just enough to pretend the remaining resort is viable, pass off the next five years of stagnation/closure on the new owners.


A competent buyer won't accept that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't think Vail will sell resorts for business market value.  They'll calculate the price based upon how much they think the stock price drops due to investors perceiving the sale as there are problems with management.   It might honestly be better for Vail's stock to just close a resort all together than sell a small area like Wildcat for say, $10M.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 2, 2022)

Part of my career the past 4-5 years was heavily analytical work. Would kinda love to see the full access/behind the scene numbers /info that drive these metrics and resorts. As a skier, I’d puke. As a finance and analytical person driving EBITA I’d shit my pants with my bonus.


----------



## zyk (Jan 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think Vail will sell resorts for business market value.  They'll calculate the price based upon how much they think the stock price drops due to investors perceiving the sale as there are problems with management.   It might honestly be better for Vail's stock to just close a resort all together than sell a small area like Wildcat for say, $10M.


Agree but that's depressing


----------



## PAabe (Jan 2, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'm concerned that when Vail sells off areas, they'll be stripped of their best assets - snowguns, snowcats, potentially even lift removals. The loss of cash would be easily offset if they maintain their regional monopoly with fewer competitors. Take Roundtop or Liberty out of Southeast PA or one of the three NH resorts out of the loop. Move the working lifts and the snowmaking assets to another regional location, leave just enough to pretend the remaining resort is viable, pass off the next five years of stagnation/closure on the new owners.


All of the Vail ski areas are IMO too big and popular to shut down a la Toggenburg or Brodie without massive public outcry

Roundtop/Liberty/Whitetail go together.  Roundtop is early season & steeps, Liberty is closest to DC, Whitetail has bigger vert.  There is not enough room at the 3 to shut down 1 with the number if people skiing there from Washington & MD, and, with 3 relatively small places, it is easier to sell a pass with the wider variety of terrain.  All 3 should be far and away profitable on their own though

Wildcat and Sunapee being owned by the state I would imagine could not be shut down in that way

Laurel Mountain is owned by the state, cannot be shut down if there is another bidder for operator

A lot of people thought Vail would try to shut down Big Boulder or Hidden Valley but they have new lifts going in so evidently not.  Both have slopeside communities which would be very angry if they were closed


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2022)

PAabe said:


> All of the Vail ski areas are IMO too big and popular to shut down a la Toggenburg or Brodie without massive public outcry
> 
> Roundtop/Liberty/Whitetail go together.  Roundtop is early season & steeps, Liberty is closest to DC, Whitetail has bigger vert.  There is not enough room at the 3 to shut down 1 with the number if people skiing there from Washington & MD, and, with 3 relatively small places, it is easier to sell a pass with the wider variety of terrain.  All 3 should be far and away profitable on their own though
> 
> Wildcat being owned by the state I would imagine could not be shut down in that way


It isn’t owned by the state. Sunapee is


----------



## PAabe (Jan 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> It isn’t owned by the state. Sunapee is


So they just lease land at the summit from the state rather than the state being the ski area owner or is that just Attitash?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2022)

PAabe said:


> So they just lease land at the summit from the state rather than the state being the ski area owner or is that just Attitash?



Sunapee is state park land and the lease is with the state. 

Attitash summit and all of Wildcat are on US National Forrest lands and the lease is with the feds.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Sunapee is state park land and the lease is with the state.
> 
> Attitash summit and all of Wildcat are on US National Forrest lands and the lease is with the feds.


Oh I had that mixed up thanks


----------



## FBGM (Jan 2, 2022)




----------



## Dickc (Jan 2, 2022)

FBGM said:


> View attachment 52597


Looks like a superspreader potential in process as Omiocron is supposed to be so contagious that you can catch it if you get into an elevator just after someone who just sneezed exits.


----------



## slatham (Jan 2, 2022)

Where is that?


----------



## RichT (Jan 2, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So how do you find out where the New England Vail resorts are making snow?   I’m used to Killington where it’s an icon on any trail they’ve blown snow on in the last 24 hours.  The Epic Mix iPhone application is pretty useless.  Same for the individual resort web sites.


I guess it's a secret?? Just another thing for the long list of fails! Yesterday I got an email from Vail asking for my "experience" at Hunter I listed just about 15 things that they sucking at! Probably never hear from them again.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 2, 2022)

slatham said:


> Where is that?


Park City I think I saw on Harvey's site version of this thread.  1.5 hour line


----------



## JoeB-Z (Jan 2, 2022)

I went to Sunapee on Friday afternoon because Magic was not running to the top. I was closed out from Okemo due to my cheapo pass. One look and I turned around after a piss. I thought it might empty out for football.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 2, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Park City I think I saw on Harvey's site version of this thread.  1.5 hour line



I believe it.  They got 2ft+ over the holiday week but it was on top of essentially nothing so the resort is around 50% open.  Website says 29/43 lifts spinning today.  So pretty much 70% capacity on a day where you'd expect demand to be 120%+ of normal holiday.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I believe it.  They got 2ft+ over the holiday week but it was on top of essentially nothing so the resort is around 50% open.  Website says 29/43 lifts spinning today.  So pretty much 70% capacity on a day where you'd expect demand to be 120%+ of normal holiday.


They don’t have enough staff to open all the lifts. Or groom at 100%. And they are close to not having any ski patrol because they are going to strike. I was hoping they would during Christmas weekend.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 2, 2022)

FBGM said:


> They don’t have enough staff to open all the lifts. Or groom at 100%. And they are close to not having any ski patrol because they are going to strike. I was hoping they would during Christmas weekend.



I'm sure they are hurting.  Rumor is Snowbird doesn't have enough help to open Mineral.

Meanwhile....we've got bigger issues... patrollers were swept up but were OK....


----------



## machski (Jan 2, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'm hesitant to defend Vail, but I have to point out that closing the mountain is actually better for snowmaking. 1. If your snowmakers were pulled to other departments or pulled from other departments, they're now at least in theory available to work. 2. Assuming you have someone available to make snow, they won't have to shut down trails to groom them out, they won't have to worry about guests getting in the way, generally it's far easier making snow on a closed section/closed mountain.
> 
> If I thought Vail had done it for operational reasons and not staffing, I might be fractionally more sympathetic. At least their horrible mismanagement should make it a little easier on their Mtn Ops crews, or whatever's left of them.


Agreed.  I could totally see Tomorrow and Tuesday closed to recover from Crap weather post Holiday week, especially given the snowmaking opportunity window.  The fact that it is Mon/Ties closed period moving forward, they lose any wiggle room I'm willing to give.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 2, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Park City I think I saw on Harvey's site version of this thread.  1.5 hour line


Link?


----------



## Mainer (Jan 2, 2022)

Skied attitash this afternoon, spring skiing in the rain. Every lift open has just one trail to ski (1.33 off the triple) It requires a skate to lap flying bear. It requires a skate to get to the yankee from a triple run. No flow. Looks like mountain hosts are being used as lifties. the triple kept stopping and going. It was empty and fun though.  Thought about getting a beer at ptarmigans but my phone died with my vax card pic on it. Took a piss at the bear peak lodge. They have the cafeteria side where you used to boot up roped off, there is a security guard checking vax cards to buy overpriced food there. It didn’t seem welcoming and was completely empty. I’m going to be so frustrating when the yankee is closed midweek again and they have a security guard in each lodge (3 total) and not enough staff to run lifts. I’m not buying anything from a vail resort again this year, I’ll walk across to Matty bs if I don’t have a pocket beer.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 2, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Link?











						F Vail
					

Vails stocks my be the highest they’ve ever been but that ship is about to smash an iceberg.  Looks like ole man Katz generated some proceeds for himself in the last year and a half. Hell, he could buy a couple mountains just buy himself with the $ he’s made before the smash-up. Timing is...




					nyskiblog.com
				




55 additional Epic™ pages of Vail for your reading enjoyment


----------



## oldfartrider (Jan 2, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Skied attitash this afternoon, spring skiing in the rain. Every lift open has just one trail to ski (1.33 off the triple) It requires a skate to lap flying bear. It requires a skate to get to the yankee from a triple run. No flow. Looks like mountain hosts are being used as lifties. the triple kept stopping and going. It was empty and fun though.  Thought about getting a beer at ptarmigans but my phone died with my vax card pic on it. Took a piss at the bear peak lodge. They have the cafeteria side where you used to boot up roped off, there is a security guard checking vax cards to buy overpriced food there. It didn’t seem welcoming and was completely empty. I’m going to be so frustrating when the yankee is closed midweek again and they have a security guard in each lodge (3 total) and not enough staff to run lifts. I’m not buying anything from a vail resort again this year, I’ll walk across to Matty bs if I don’t have a pocket beer.


One of the mountains I think it was Stowe was adding some type of sticker to the RFID card for vax proof. So in the future this is what would be shown. I’m not sure exactly what was added as I haven’t eaten inside.


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## drjeff (Jan 2, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> One of the mountains I think it was Stowe was adding some type of sticker to the RFID card for vax proof. So in the future this is what would be shown. I’m not sure exactly what was added as I haven’t eaten inside.


Mount Snow will put a sticker on your Epic Pass at the host/check-in station if you show them a copy/picture of your Vax card prior to you heading in to grab a bite to eat. 

Makes it quicker


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## chuckstah (Jan 3, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Skied attitash this afternoon, spring skiing in the rain. Every lift open has just one trail to ski (1.33 off the triple) It requires a skate to lap flying bear. It requires a skate to get to the yankee from a triple run. No flow. Looks like mountain hosts are being used as lifties. the triple kept stopping and going. It was empty and fun though.  Thought about getting a beer at ptarmigans but my phone died with my vax card pic on it. Took a piss at the bear peak lodge. They have the cafeteria side where you used to boot up roped off, there is a security guard checking vax cards to buy overpriced food there. It didn’t seem welcoming and was completely empty. I’m going to be so frustrating when the yankee is closed midweek again and they have a security guard in each lodge (3 total) and not enough staff to run lifts. I’m not buying anything from a vail resort again this year, I’ll walk across to Matty bs if I don’t have a pocket beer.


This will be year two of not spending a dime at Vail areas.   Pocket beer for the lift, or tailgating at the car every time.


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## RichT (Jan 3, 2022)

It's 14 degrees, I can see the North and West areas of Hunter from my house. ZERO snowmaking...............Vail does truly fucking suck!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

No guns going on at Stowe...


----------



## elks (Jan 3, 2022)

machski said:


> Agreed.  I could totally see Tomorrow and Tuesday closed to recover from Crap weather post Holiday week, especially given the snowmaking opportunity window.  The fact that it is Mon/Ties closed period moving forward, they lose any wiggle room I'm willing to give.


Looks like Crotched is blasting on Meteor and Moonwalk right now!


----------



## FBGM (Jan 3, 2022)

RichT said:


> It's 14 degrees, I can see the North and West areas of Hunter from my house. ZERO snowmaking...............Vail does truly fucking suck!


Looks like everything is on full blast at Hunter via webcam…


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Mount Snow will put a sticker on your Epic Pass at the host/check-in station if you show them a copy/picture of your Vax card prior to you heading in to grab a bite to eat.
> 
> Makes it quicker


all of the resorts are doing it. You show prof of vax and you get the sticker. Then they can scan you as you come in and and see you have been vaxed.  got mine at crotched wednesday.

its actually a smart thing to do, which surprises the hell out of me.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 3, 2022)

killwhat said:


> Looks like Crotched is blasting on Meteor and Moonwalk right now!


sunapee is blasting as well, at least on spruce and the sunbowl. cams are actually working.


----------



## RichT (Jan 3, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Looks like everything is on full blast at Hunter via webcam…


You mean everything that already had snow on it is at full blast...............they should also be spreading it now.


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## snoseek (Jan 3, 2022)

RichT said:


> You mean everything that already had snow on it is at full blast...............they should also be spreading it now.


I don't know but if I was making those decisions I would definitely be resurfacing real quick before moving on to expand. Next high volume period isn't till mlk and current surfaces are probably beat up from the past ten days. Seems like good logic to me.

I bet crotched skis pretty damn good first thing wednesday


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2022)




----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Park City yesterday…..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Only thing blasting here is over st spruce..this is a fucking joke..


----------



## Edd (Jan 3, 2022)

There’s lively discussion at the SkiTalk forum about Vail’s performance nationwide this season. Haven’t checked other forums but I’ll be shocked if their pass sales don’t drop noticeably next season. 

Stock price aside, I’d love to hear what the top brass at Vail are saying to each other in meetings. “We’re widely reviled, great job everyone!” ???


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Only thing blasting here is over st spruce..this is a fucking joke..


Maybe Vail has to send the Stowe's snowmakers down to Hunter...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

This shit keeps up and i may ditch epic next year...supporting this company is a waste of time...


----------



## Edd (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> This shit keeps up and i may ditch epic next year...supporting this company is a waste of time...


I’m shocked you haven’t already decided to do that. Seems like the whole forum has.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I don't know but if I was making those decisions I would definitely be resurfacing real quick before moving on to expand. Next high volume period isn't till mlk and current surfaces are probably beat up from the past ten days. Seems like good logic to me.
> 
> I bet crotched skis pretty damn good first thing wednesday


"Beat up" is an understatement. High-volume trails like Belt and Hell Gate and Mossy had big incursions of brown snow down to mud in places, and some vital connectors like the end of White Cloud where it meets mid-station were all but gone by early Sunday. I'd rather they got that shored up first if there's a decision to be made there.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

And they only have so many GPM. They can easily put all their firepower on the main face, between their HKDs and all the fans.


----------



## Quietman (Jan 3, 2022)




----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Quietman said:


> View attachment 52606


Four snowguns.  Must be Vail's stock went up.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Edd said:


> I’m shocked you haven’t already decided to do that. Seems like the whole forum has.


Still have the place near stowe..but where we live is almost equal distance to either...we shall see


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Nothing going on at The Cat.  Makes sense since AT has snowmaking on 3 trails...
  Another VAIL FAIL


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2022)

I’ll have to check it out. I love anti-vail discussion threads.


Edd said:


> There’s lively discussion at the SkiTalk forum about Vail’s performance nationwide this season. Haven’t checked other forums but I’ll be shocked if their pass sales don’t drop noticeably next season.
> 
> Stock price aside, I’d love to hear what the top brass at Vail are saying to each other in meetings. “We’re widely reviled, great job everyone!” ???


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2022)

Quietman said:


> View attachment 52606


How are you getting the webcam to work? When I go it says currently offline


----------



## Quietman (Jan 3, 2022)

Just using Chrome for a browser.  The offline screen shows for about 5 seconds, then flips to the web cam.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2022)

Quietman said:


> Just using Chrome for a browser.  The offline screen shows for about 5 seconds, then flips to the web cam.


Gotcha not working for iOS


----------



## cdskier (Jan 3, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Gotcha not working for iOS


Just tried it on my iPhone and it works fine in Safari there...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Vail Mountain’s top boss addresses staffing shortage in open letter
					

Vail Mountain Chief Operating Officer Beth Howard addressed staffing issues and delayed terrain openings in an open letter posted to Vail Mountain’s Facebook page on Thursday evening.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Another interesting read......









						Epic crowds are colliding with epic labor shortages at ski areas
					

A labor shortage at ski areas, including Vail Resorts' 34 resorts, has left them understaffed during the holidays and omicron surge.




					coloradosun.com
				






> The Epic-passed hordes have collided with rippling effects of the pandemic that Vail Resorts did not predict when it launched its season-pass fire sale. A pandemic-triggered escalation of real estate prices has reduced the number of homes available to local workers. And without workers, resort community businesses are struggling.





> One patroller at Breckenridge, who cannot speak on record due to Vail Resorts policy on talking with media, said a lack of chairlift operators, lift mechanics and snowcat drivers has slowed the resort’s ability to open terrain. Sources at Vail, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte and Keystone, which has only 32 of 130 runs open, told The Colorado Sun the same thing. Crested Butte Mountain Resort, which has been hammered with new snow this week, opened its East River chairlift on Wednesday, but that meant there were not enough lifties to keep the Teocalli lift running.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

More quotes from the Colorado Sun article:



> “It’s not that there are not enough talented people. There is a shortage of people who will get duped into working for $15 an hour,” the Breckenridge patroller said of Lynch’s assessment. “This is about communities running out of cheap labor. People are realizing they are worth more and their quality of life is worth more than an extra dime an hour or whatever.”





> They told [Alex Kaufman] how Vail Resorts gutted middle-management positions when it slashed spending during the pandemic. They showed how the company was stacking bunk beds into apartments, so four workers can share a room. They blasted the company’s new human resources app, which is replacing people and departments at all of the company’s 34 North American ski areas.



And particularly relevant here:



> In the outpouring, Kaufman said,* a theme emerged, especially at the company’s newly acquired resorts, which are lagging behind nearby resorts in* Washington, Minnesota and *New Hampshire when it comes to opening terrain.
> 
> When Vail Resorts acquires a new resort, they assimilate departments into the company’s headquarters in Broomfield. The career-types in each ski area’s finance, marketing and human resources departments are let go. They direct all hourly workers — there are tens of thousands of seasonal, hourly workers supporting Vail Resorts — to an app for all daily tasks, like tracking benefits, pay and COVID policies.
> 
> “They made a bet on automating everything and eliminated institutional knowledge and careers and, really, the culture at all these resorts in the name of efficiency. And it might have worked,” Kaufman said. “Then a pandemic came and they have a broken HR app that does not work as they try to navigate through a, quote, global talent shortage. The pandemic called their bet and now they don’t have veterans or institutional knowledge.”*






> “They tried to drive the bottom line so hard, they put employees last,” Rumford said. “They didn’t invest in their workers. They found workarounds that become the standard operating procedure. They don’t like to reinvest unless it’s showy and glitzy, like chairlifts or terrain.”





> “All of that while they are having a labor shortage. I’ve never seen morale so low at the resort,” said a longtime Vail ski instructor, noting how supervisors at the ski area had their pay frozen last year and annual raises were not reinstated despite the record number of passes sold. “Working there is like having a front-row seat watching Vail burn from the inside.”


----------



## PAabe (Jan 3, 2022)

DC ski forums don't have a VAIL SUCKS thread yet but it only took a matter of weeks after 7S/HV/LM sale for the sentiment to shift from "this is great Nutting was awful" to "holy smokes how is Vail possibly doing worse than Nutting"


----------



## JimG. (Jan 3, 2022)

Edd said:


> There’s lively discussion at the SkiTalk forum about Vail’s performance nationwide this season. Haven’t checked other forums but I’ll be shocked if their pass sales don’t drop noticeably next season.
> 
> Stock price aside, I’d love to hear what the top brass at Vail are saying to each other in meetings. “We’re widely reviled, great job everyone!” ???


No problem, Vail will just knock another 20% off pass prices.

And many suckers will be glad to pay and brag about what a great deal they got.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

JimG. said:


> No problem, Vail will just knock another 20% off pass prices.
> 
> And many suckers will be glad to pay and brag about what a great deal they got.


Reminds me of Sears, once a very good company, pioneer of the industry. Where is it now?


----------



## JoeB-Z (Jan 3, 2022)

After Magic's issue I figured to go to Sunapee last Friday. I thought some people would get ready for football in the PM. Turned around. I suppose Sunapee is always busy during the holiday period- but wow. My Epic weekday pass looks like less of a bargain every day. Everyone has one and their idea of fun is standing in line to go down a few skied off trails.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> This shit keeps up and i may ditch epic next year...supporting this company is a waste of time...



Vail's whole strategy is to try and get one or two trips a year out West from East coasters like us. If they can get us out West to one of their premier resorts Vail's odds of generating more revenue greatly increases as they own lots of hotels and restaurants at their premier resorts. They own very few hotels and restaurants in the East, so it's easy to see why they are letting their small resorts back here go. They don't make much money off them and instead Vail uses the East coast resorts as a tool to get you out West. This strategy is clearly backfiring amongst the majority of us who ski the East and Mid Atlantic. 

Now factor in Covid and the various staffing issues around the mountains because of it and this early season has turned into a disaster. Vail wants you out West especially during the holidays but Keystone over New Years week only had 30% of their terrain opened with the resort's snowfall at 100% of it's historical average. Breckenridge, Beaver Creek, and Vail were all around 50% opened and they all had enough snow to be well over 75% opened during New Years week.

We made the best of it and will pretty much have a good time no matter what if we're skiing but I could certainly understand how Vail's customers would be extremely pissed, especially if your trip over the holidays was to Keystone.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Ide like to know what makes them think that if no one wants to work for this pay this year..when will they ever want to?
They apparently want to play chicken...with labor..see who gives in first.
And..if they want people to come out west..where they seem to have the same problem..then how will that work?


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ide like to know what makes them think that if no one wants to work for this pay this year..when will they ever want to?
> They apparently want to play chicken...with labor..see who gives in first.
> And..if they want people to come out west..where they seem to have the same problem..then how will that work?


It’s all about short term profits over long term growth/sustainability. Thats what happens when the stock market is more important than skiing to Broomfield.


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## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> This shit keeps up and i may ditch epic next year...supporting this company is a waste of time...


Good for you either way. 

I don't "support" corporations. I pay for a product and expect to receive what's promised. 

I'm not an early season skiers. Also, the weather is not that great this season so far. So I'm somewhat indifferent to the Vail fiasco. That said, I suspect I'll join the bitching late in the season when they shut down perfectly good mountains with lots of snow on the trail. 

That, would pretty much nail my decision to not renew my Epic pass. (btw, I'm not on auto-renew).


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

I totally understand skiing somewhere besides Magic, but I sure wouldn't have picked a Vail NH mountain as the substitute! If this keeps up next year Magic might be able to advertise more snowmaking terrain than Wildcat. I know Sunapee is the best of the three but still.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 3, 2022)

Vail should consider fat sign on bonuses and extend that to current employees if they want to avoid a potential disaster to both the rest of their season and ultimately their stock price. They won't, but they should


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

So my Outback is in the shop getting an oil leak fixed under extended warranty and they gave me a Forester as a loaner.  Where should I day trip tomorrow?   Sunapee is a 2 1/2 hour ride.  Mt Snow is 3 1/4.  I see snow guns on the Carinthia web cam.  Do I assume that Mount Snow will have cranked up a bunch of fan guns?   I can’t imagine Sunapee has the compressor power to blow more than one trail at a time.  With a loaner, pay parking without paying should work fine.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So my Outback is in the shop getting an oil leak fixed under extended warranty and they gave me a Forester as a loaner.  Where should I day trip tomorrow?   Sunapee is a 2 1/2 hour ride.  Mt Snow is 3 1/4.  I see snow guns on the Carinthia web cam.  Do I assume that Mount Snow will have cranked up a bunch of fan guns?   I can’t imagine Sunapee has the compressor power to blow more than one trail at a time.  With a loaner, pay parking without paying should work fine.


After the warm temps and the freeze today I’d say Snow has the best chance of decent resurfacing.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> With a loaner, pay parking without paying should work fine.


Not following...


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> After the warm temps and the freeze today I’d say Snow has the best chance of decent resurfacing.


To repeat an earlier post, how do you find out where they’re making snow?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So my Outback is in the shop getting an oil leak fixed under extended warranty and they gave me a Forester as a loaner.  Where should I day trip tomorrow?   Sunapee is a 2 1/2 hour ride.  Mt Snow is 3 1/4.  I see snow guns on the Carinthia web cam.  Do I assume that Mount Snow will have cranked up a bunch of fan guns?   I can’t imagine Sunapee has the compressor power to blow more than one trail at a time.  With a loaner, pay parking without paying should work fine.



Can pretty much guarantee that all 10 of these pumps in the pump house near the base of Carinthia are working full bore right now, and for close to 24hrs now, putting over 8k gallons a minute of water up to the summit valve house for snow. 

Standard recovery plan in most of the fan gun trails on the main face as well as the air/water guns on Long John and Cascade 1st. Sometimes more depending on how many GPM they're running the guns at.

Wouldn't be surprised if they give phase 1 of this recovery a 48hr run to put some of the base lost the last week back, and hopefully not have to go back to that terrain again before MLK Weekend


----------



## drjeff (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> To repeat an earlier post, how do you find out where they’re making snow?


Not so easy these days...

They have been mentioning some of the trails where they're currently making snow on in the 1st paragraph or 2 of the snow report the last couple of weeks

Definitely miss the snowmaking icons on the lift and trail report though


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

abc said:


> Not following...


Rental car.  I don’t care if some parking lot attendant at Mount Snow puts a “ticket” on it.  It’s not like they’re going to chase down a rental registered to a Subaru dealer in Massachusetts.


----------



## RichT (Jan 3, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> "Beat up" is an understatement. High-volume trails like Belt and Hell Gate and Mossy had big incursions of brown snow down to mud in places, and some vital connectors like the end of White Cloud where it meets mid-station were all but gone by early Sunday. I'd rather they got that shored up first if there's a decision to be made there.


Hunter has enough power to turn on just about every gun at once! I've seen it many times in my 35 yrs skiing there.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> View attachment 52611
> Can pretty much guarantee that all 10 of these pumps in the pump house near the base of Carinthia are working full bore right now, and for close to 24hrs now, putting over 8k gallons a minute of water up to the summit valve house for snow.
> 
> Standard recovery plan in most of the fan gun trails on the main face as well as the air/water guns on Long John and Cascade 1st. Sometimes more depending on how many GPM they're running the guns at.
> ...


So I should expect at least 3 or 4 ways down that aren’t golf balls and sheet ice?  One of them the novice wrap-around trail.  Focus on intermediate stuff?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So I should expect at least 3 or 4 ways down that aren’t golf balls and sheet ice?  One of them the novice wrap-around trail.  Focus on intermediate stuff?


That's a safe bet. Plus with tomorrow having a minimum of a 2nd groom since things froze up last night, the quantity of golf balls should be minimized and converted into machine groomed loose granular over a solid surface where the resurfacing hasn't happened yet


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> Vail's whole strategy is to try and get one or two trips a year out West from East coasters like us. If they can get us out West to one of their premier resorts Vail's odds of generating more revenue greatly increases as they own lots of hotels and restaurants at their premier resorts. They own very few hotels and restaurants in the East, so it's easy to see why they are letting their small resorts back here go. They don't make much money off them and instead Vail uses the East coast resorts as a tool to get you out West. This strategy is clearly backfiring amongst the majority of us who ski the East and Mid Atlantic.
> 
> Now factor in Covid and the various staffing issues around the mountains because of it and this early season has turned into a disaster. Vail wants you out West especially during the holidays but Keystone over New Years week only had 30% of their terrain opened with the resort's snowfall at 100% of it's historical average. Breckenridge, Beaver Creek, and Vail were all around 50% opened and they all had enough snow to be well over 75% opened during New Years week.
> 
> We made the best of it and will pretty much have a good time no matter what if we're skiing but I could certainly understand how Vail's customers would be extremely pissed, especially if your trip over the holidays was to Keystone.



The problem is that since taking over in the NorthEast, the number of Epic Pass holders heading west to ski is tiny.  Around 8% according to a friend who was high up in data analysis for Vail. Numbers are a bit higher for Mid Atlantic skiers.

 Granted, the numbers will probably improve as the pandemic fades, but how much who knows.  Say it improves to 20% in the Northeast. If you are delivering a crap product to the 80% of your base who either can't afford to or are disinterested in traveling West to ski, the market share is gonna drop.  Maybe (hopefully) catastrophically.  

I just don't think they understand just how important snowmaking is everywhere in the East.  It was an aspect of the sport that has greatly improved over the past 40 years.  Now that Vail is going backwards in that regards, people are going to get more and more frustrated.  This is especially true when they look around and see the competition is not struggling so badly.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 3, 2022)

Its





Kingslug20 said:


> Ide like to know what makes them think that if no one wants to work for this pay this year..when will they ever want to?
> They apparently want to play chicken...with labor..see who gives in first.
> And..if they want people to come out west..where they seem to have the same problem..then how will that work?



It's not just pay, it's the lack of employee housing, vaccine requirements that eliminate from an already tight labor pool, and people calling out sick with Covid.

I'd say 25% to 30% of the stores in Vail Village were closed over Christmas time which is the busiest time of the year for retail. It was a ghost town Christmas Eve in Vail Village, we were shocked. We also had dinner reservations canceled on two separate occasions due to lack of staff and Covid outbreaks.

As far as the last question goes your absolutely right, the Western experience they want you to have is lacking now just as much as their watered down East coast experience and it's not good path to be going down......

What is concerning to me and may be a tell is Vail couldn't pay their employees on time in California at the end of the year and blamed it on a bank holiday. That is total BS, banks and brokerages don't close the last day of the year. Atleast none of the major one's do. I'm wondering if this "cash crunch" will have an effect on what they can open across the country as the season moves on. I sure hope not.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 3, 2022)

A





deadheadskier said:


> The problem is that since taking over in the NorthEast, the number of Epic Pass holders heading west to ski is tiny.  Around 8% according to a friend who was high up in data analysis for Vail. Numbers are a bit higher for Mid Atlantic skiers.
> 
> Granted, the numbers will probably improve as the pandemic fades, but how much who knows.  Say it improves to 20% in the Northeast. If you are delivering a crap product to the 80% of your base who either can't afford to or are disinterested in traveling West to ski, the market share is gonna drop.  Maybe (hopefully) catastrophically.
> 
> I just don't think they understand just how important snowmaking is everywhere in the East.  It was an aspect of the sport that has greatly improved over the past 40 years.  Now that Vail is going backwards in that regards, people are going to get more and more frustrated.  This is especially true when they look around and see the competition is not struggling so badly.



Agreed, a bad product in the East, Atlantic, and Midwest isn't going to make you rush out to visit their Western resorts.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Rental car.  I don’t care if some parking lot attendant at Mount Snow puts a “ticket” on it.  It’s not like they’re going to chase down a rental registered to a Subaru dealer in Massachusetts.


They certainly could tow it  like Stowe does


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Stowe should not have a housing problem as you can live within an hour affordably..
Its pay..snowmaking is a brutal job...
They better figure this out...this shit wont last too many seasons...


----------



## snoseek (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe should not have a housing problem as you can live within an hour affordably..
> Its pay..snowmaking is a brutal job...
> They better figure this out...this shit wont last too many seasons...


I don't know what you're definition of affordable is but the act of commuting an hour each day to and from is expensive.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

This doesn’t align at all with what I’ve been hearing.  My stepdaughter manages a retail store on the main drag in Vail Village close to the covered bridge and the parking structure.  Her store smashed every sales record last week.  Like 2x what the store has ever done in December.  Her boyfriend is a waiter & bartender at a nearby high end restaurant.  Same thing there.  All the local businesses are paying really well to hire strong staff and they’re printing money.  

Which is of course why Vail is having problems staffing the low end jobs.  Anyone any good is making much better money.  The customer base is spending like crazy.  


Tonyr said:


> I'd say 25% to 30% of the stores in Vail Village were closed over Christmas time which is the busiest time of the year for retail. It was a ghost town Christmas Eve in Vail Village, we were shocked. We also had dinner reservations canceled on two separate occasions due to lack of staff and Covid outbreaks.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe should not have a housing problem as you can live within an hour affordably..
> Its pay..snowmaking is a brutal job...
> They better figure this out...this shit wont last too many seasons...


Nobody's going to work snowmaking hours for snowmaking wages and drive an extra two hours in good weather every day. That's a recipe for car wrecks. I've seen people drive a little over 30 minutes and not burn out.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Then how has stowe employed snow makers in the past?
Did all the ones making decent money quit?
On the way there i pass a lot of employees waiting for the bus...where are they staying?


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> This doesn’t align at all with what I’ve been hearing. My stepdaughter manages a retail store on the main drag in Vail Village close to the covered bridge and the parking structure. Her store smashed every sales record last week. Like 2x what the store has ever done in December. Her boyfriend is a waiter & bartender at a nearby high end restaurant. Same thing there. All the local businesses are paying really well to hire strong staff and they’re printing money.





Tonyr said:


> I'd say 25% to 30% of the stores in Vail Village were closed over Christmas time which is the busiest time of the year for retail. It was a ghost town Christmas Eve in Vail Village, we were shocked. We also had dinner reservations canceled on two separate occasions due to lack of staff and Covid outbreaks.


The two are not mutually exclusive. 

I've seen it first hand in a lot of places. 20-30% stores closed. The remaining stores had 20-30% extra crowds. 

It felt a lot more though. Couldn't find a place to eat. Have to push my way through the waiting crowd just to pick up my take outs.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Then how has stowe employed snow makers in the past?
> Did all the ones making decent money quit?
> On the way there i pass a lot of employees waiting for the bus...where are they staying?


Does the bus serve night shift employees?

I know Stowe has some housing, but not enough for everyone. They've probably burned through a lot of the actual local locals, people who grew up in the area. So they're left trying to get people to move to the area, fight AirBnBs for lodging, and work for less than a warehouse job or a fast food gig where the perk is a $500 pass.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Again.....









						Epic crowds are colliding with epic labor shortages at ski areas
					

A labor shortage at ski areas, including Vail Resorts' 34 resorts, has left them understaffed during the holidays and omicron surge.




					coloradosun.com


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Again.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why did you post it again?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Why did you post it again?


Because folks are addressing issues raised in the article without seeing the original post.....also I would have figured that it would have generated some conversation.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Ok
Omicron
No more locals
Shit pay
No housing
Now what?  Doesnt sound very solvable at this point..at least not for vail..


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ok
> Omicron
> No more locals
> Shit pay
> ...


Well, the article I posted spoke directly to the NE Resorts and what Vail did.  That was to lay off the management of those resorts and rely on an app to manage the rank and file employees.  That didn't work out too well...combined with losing the institutional knowledge that management had for each area.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

Pay better than fast food entry level wages and you'll get some slots filled. Make it a career path and you can keep a cadre of skilled snowmakers and equipment operators for summer maintenance. Between the two options you can get better ryeayear over year  retention and stop having to retrain your whole crew every year, right when you need everyone at their best for opening day. 

'Course, this is paying money for intangibles, so naturally Vail won't.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ok
> Omicron
> No more locals
> Shit pay
> ...


Shit pay is the easiest to fix.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 3, 2022)

Vail should be paying $20/hr min all positions all ski areas if they want to have any hope of fixing any of those problems.  That is now the going rate.  And maybe at least try to appear like they care about skiers and their staff a little bit

Although at this point they have probably lost any of the labor pool that was available to begin with and have already lost so much of the institutional knowledge.  Call it a wash for this season.  Once everyone else starts to open up with the cold temps I think it will really expose the worst yet to come MLK and Presidents'


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Vail should be paying $20/hr min all positions all ski areas if they want to have any hope of fixing any of those problems.  That is now the going rate.  And maybe at least try to appear like they care about skiers and their staff a little bit
> 
> Although at this point they have probably lost any of the labor pool that was available to begin with.  Call it a wash for this season.  Once everyone else starts to open up with the cold temps I think it will really expose the worst yet to come MLK and Presidents'


So for the board, does anyone know any non-Vail resorts that ARE paying this amount to employees?  I know for a fact one POWDR resort that is not and is using Vail's low-ball rates to justify their ridiculously low pay.  As a result said POWDR Resort has been limping along with WAY less terrain open than usual and almost entirely new staff in many positions.  In other words, since Vail delivers a shit product POWDR thinks it can too.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2022)

The way i see it is...we could end up going back to relying on natural snow..which is impossible...
Wonder how long it will take until people realize that paying to ski a place that is 30% open...sux..and start boycotting...
Or will we all just settle for what we get...


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Again.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No way...

  Alex Kaufman was SR's Snow Reporter ages ago, maybe 20 years ago.
    Then he moved to PR, and was involved w/ the first SR "official" Blog/Forum.
AK moved west, and SR bailed on the "official" Forum.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So my Outback is in the shop getting an oil leak fixed under extended warranty and they gave me a Forester as a loaner.


Only company that has screwed me over worse than vail is Subaru. I would recommend you spend tomorrow at a Toyota dealership.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 3, 2022)

Good luck I recommend just carrying several quarts of oil and refilling as needed

I am on my 2nd engine the 1st one blew up after the gaskets already had been replaced.  To be fair almost 200k miles at this point


----------



## ss20 (Jan 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So for the board, does anyone know any non-Vail resorts that ARE paying this amount to employees?  I know for a fact one POWDR resort that is not and is using Vail's low-ball rates to justify their ridiculously low pay.  As a result said POWDR Resort has been limping along with WAY less terrain open than usual and almost entirely new staff in many positions.  In other words, since Vail delivers a shit product POWDR thinks it can too.




lol the $20/hr thing again....

No one working unskilled labor in a ski area is making that.  Maybe some guys in Aspen, Jackson, and CA that have been there a few years but aren't yet supervisors in their field.  

Higher wages in ski towns is NOT the answer.  Pay lifties and rental techs $25/hr and housing costs go up.  There is no good solution.  It sucks.  The best "solution" I believe is going back to $1,000+ season passes.  Stifles guest demand a bit, and incentivizes ski bums to work for the resort to earn that pass.  Right now with passes being so cheap it's not worth working part-time at crap pay within the resort to earn the pass.

The ski industry has a CRITICAL supply/demand issue....writing has been on the wall for 15+ years...it's finally here.  10% less guests and 10% more employees would fix everything but the accounting sheets.  The revenue brought in per guest can grow though to compensate that.  Guests WANT to put their kids in ski school each day but can't because not enough instructors.  Guests WANT to sit down after skiing and buy a few beers but won't because the line is 30 minutes+.  Guests WANT to return to their luxury hotel and get a massage but can't because they're understaffed.  @Tonyr 's story of restaurants cancelling on him bc lack of staff doesn't surprise me.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Only company that has screwed me over worse than vail is Subaru. I would recommend you spend tomorrow at a Toyota dealership.



I am still amazed Subaru exists and people eat them up like hot cakes.  I have NO IDEA how they escaped the gasket/oil issues the past 20 years on/off and maintained a good quality reputation in the mainstream.  The failure rate is just staggering.


----------



## Pez (Jan 3, 2022)

more money is the answer.  you can talk about the perk of a 1200 dollar season pass, but if you can't afford to eat or put gas in your car then what's the point?


----------



## JimG. (Jan 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The way i see it is...we could end up going back to relying on natural snow..which is impossible...



That's when I'll be looking to move out west. Like up to interior Alaska.

Fail might make that happen much sooner than later, we shall see.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> No way...
> 
> Alex Kaufman was SR's Snow Reporter ages ago, maybe 20 years ago.
> Then he moved to PR, and was involved w/ the first SR "official" Blog/Forum.
> AK moved west, and SR bailed on the "official" Forum.


That was all Skip King. He set it up at all the ASC resorts and had a message board called CyberLodge as his sandbox. Steve Wright, a familiar Jay Peak name now, ran the one at Killington.  All the resort marketing people had dotted line reporting to Skip as the corporate VP.  When Otten quit, it all imploded.   Most of the resort GMs didn’t understand the internet and didn’t want to pay staff to nanny a message board filled with flames.   Skiers who do every weekend at your resort are the best marketing you’ve got.  When they go 100% negative, it costs you a lot of customers.  Year 1 of POWDR at Killington is a textbook example.  They lost 50% of their skier visits.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Only company that has screwed me over worse than vail is Subaru. I would recommend you spend tomorrow at a Toyota dealership.



Don't tempt me like that.

Doesn't take much to get me to detour a thread into Subaru bashing


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> That was all Skip King. He set it up at all the ASC resorts and had a message board called CyberLodge as his sandbox. Steve Wright, a familiar Jay Peak name now, ran the one at Killington.  All the resort marketing people had dotted line reporting to Skip as the corporate VP.  When Otten quit, it all imploded.   Most of the resort GMs didn’t understand the internet and didn’t want to pay staff to nanny a message board filled with flames.   Skiers who do every weekend at your resort are the best marketing you’ve got.  When they go 100% negative, it costs you a lot of customers.  Year 1 of POWDR at Killington is a textbook example.  They lost 50% of their skier visits.


Skip was SR Patrol Director and hired me in 1991...
He became Marketing VP when Burt Mills left as Mt Mngr.
 He saw the importance of Internet blog/forums light years ahead of everybody else.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Good luck I recommend just carrying several quarts of oil and refilling as needed
> 
> I am on my 2nd engine the 1st one blew up after the gaskets already had been replaced.  To be fair almost 200k miles at this point


Meh.  The repair isn’t going to cost me a dime.  I have a 7/100k extended warranty.   It’s a 6 cylinder that doesn’t have the issues of the 4 cylinder.  This Forester loaner is very unrefined compared to mine.  No way I’d own a car with a normally aspirated Subaru 4-cylinder.   I haven’t driven a turbo to have an opinion.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 3, 2022)

I didn't apply because I had housing already squares away, but I saw multiple Northeast resorts advertise $18/hr+ for entry level mountain ops jobs pre pandemic. $15 starting rate gets "that's too low" and "that's so high" comments whenever it comes up. I've also seen substantially lower than that offered, at corporate and indy places.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Skip was SR Patrol Director and hired me in 1991...
> He became Marketing VP when Burt Mills left as Mt Mngr.
> He saw the importance of Internet blog/forums light years ahead of everybody else.


I skied some runs with Skip and Burt when Burt was running The Canyons.  Burt was skiing 9990 with his boots unbuckled.  I didn’t realize that was possible.  I sailed a lot with Skip when I lived in Portsmouth NH.  It’s kind of inexcusable that I haven’t seen him since he moved to the Cape.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 3, 2022)

I believe this is the pugski thread that was mentioned. I went to try and find it, maybe somebody can enlighten them further on the state of the east coast areas. Apparently Kirkwood and especially Steven's pass are pretty bad









						Vail Resorts- a new leaf?
					

I learned this week that Vail is addressing some of the issues that gave rise to multiple unpaid wages lawsuits. I view this as a step in the right direction even if they are viewing many areas of "Epic Service" as unpaid "voluntary" requests.  I am posting this to give credit where credit is...




					www.skitalk.com


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So for the board, does anyone know any non-Vail resorts that ARE paying this amount to employees?  I know for a fact one POWDR resort that is not and is using Vail's low-ball rates to justify their ridiculously low pay.  As a result said POWDR Resort has been limping along with WAY less terrain open than usual and almost entirely new staff in many positions.  In other words, since Vail delivers a shit product POWDR thinks it can too.


They really are bringing down the ski industry as a whole.


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 3, 2022)

Last I knew Sunday River pays snow makers $20. A friend did it for a bit 2 seasons ago. Not sure of current rate.


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> This doesn’t align at all with what I’ve been hearing.  My stepdaughter manages a retail store on the main drag in Vail Village close to the covered bridge and the parking structure.  Her store smashed every sales record last week.  Like 2x what the store has ever done in December.  Her boyfriend is a waiter & bartender at a nearby high end restaurant.  Same thing there.  All the local businesses are paying really well to hire strong staff and they’re printing money.
> 
> Which is of course why Vail is having problems staffing the low end jobs.  Anyone any good is making much better money.  The customer base is spending like crazy.


We went into the candy store in the Village on Christmas Eve, the owner said it was the slowest Christmas Eve they had in 12 years of business but he did say the previous 5 or 6 days were outstanding, so that lines up. Ask them how Christmas Eve and Christmas day went as there were literally about a dozen stores in the village closed......


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> I would recommend you spend tomorrow at a Toyota dealership.



I don't know, my last 4runner only made it to 383k before I decided it was too unreliable.  Then again I bet somebody is still driving it.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 3, 2022)

Pez said:


> more money is the answer.  you can talk about the perk of a 1200 dollar season pass, but if you can't afford to eat or put gas in your car then what's the point?



The expensive pass to incentivize employment worked the first 50 years of the industry's existence.  This has never been an industry where you make money.  

Yes, ski town prices of everything have gotten out of control.  To fix that is an effort between resorts and their town governments.  Should Jackson Hole pay basic hourly employees $30/hr to spin lifts because that's what it takes to afford a two bedroom apartment with a couple other dudes?  I don't think so... that's not fair to the resort.  At the same time, I don't think the town of Jackson should be forced to build 100s of units of affordable housing when the market demand there is for housing that's valued in the millions.  That's not fair to the town.  There needs to be give and take on both sides, in all ski resort communities.  

The demand is just too high.  Build a 1,000 unit affordable housing complex in Aspen, Jackson, Tahoe, Colorado, or Bozeman and it'd be sold-out overnight.  It is a much more multi-faceted issue than just paying employees more.  Pay employees 20% more you'd see rent increase 20%.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Rental car.  I don’t care if some parking lot attendant at Mount Snow puts a “ticket” on it.  It’s not like they’re going to chase down a rental registered to a Subaru dealer in Massachusetts.


They won't be "chase down" it. They would simply sent the ticket to the register owner's address. The dealership. 

The dealership is going to pay it, then charge it to you.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 4, 2022)

If a company won't pay enough to entice a suitable employee to work for them, it's nobody's fault but the company's that they can't fill that position. Either the value of the labor doesn't justify the cost - and their business model is broken - or the value of the labor does justify the cost and the company could fill the position with higher pay and still be profitable.

Raising the sign on bonus by $500 (aka making the pass more expensive) is fine for one day a week part time incentives, but when your snowmakers are working seven twelves, not only do they earn that pass in one week anyway before overtime (at $12/h) but they don't give a damn about it because they're not able to use it much anyway. I've often heard ops wish they could have the cash value of their employee pass instead.

And you just cut your volume of passes sold to the general public by a lot so you have less money anyway, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> They won't be "chase down" it. They would simply sent the ticket to the register owner's address. The dealership.
> 
> The dealership is going to pay it, then charge it to you.


So you’re saying that on the Tuesday after a holiday week with barely enough staff to run lifts, they’re going to check every plate in their pay lots against their smartphone data base, look up plates, and send a bill to anyone not registered in the database?   It’s private property.  It’s not a real parking ticket.  Mount Snow has no recourse beyond small claims court.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 4, 2022)

The ones with employee housing survive. The ones with nice employee housing will thrive. 

Also end of year bonuses that help workers get through the shoulder will do alot do alot to retain workers. Set aside a dollar per hour worked all season and give it back in spring because saving is hard when you make low wages.


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## jaytrem (Jan 4, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So you’re saying that on the Tuesday after a holiday week with barely enough staff to run lifts, they’re going to check every plate in their pay lots against their smartphone data base, look up plates, and send a bill to anyone not registered in the database?   It’s private property.  It’s not a real parking ticket.  Mount Snow has no recourse beyond small claims court.


Only the 2 smaller premium lots charge on weekdays, so it's not as big a job to write the tickets.  I think they have plenty of staff with all the internationals.  Perhaps the Snow Lake Lodge employee housing was a good draw when recruiting.


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## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2022)

ss20 said:


> The expensive pass to incentivize employment worked the first 50 years of the industry's existence.  This has never been an industry where you make money.
> 
> Yes, ski town prices of everything have gotten out of control.  To fix that is an effort between resorts and their town governments.  Should Jackson Hole pay basic hourly employees $30/hr to spin lifts because that's what it takes to afford a two bedroom apartment with a couple other dudes?  I don't think so... that's not fair to the resort.  At the same time, I don't think the town of Jackson should be forced to build 100s of units of affordable housing when the market demand there is for housing that's valued in the millions.  That's not fair to the town.  There needs to be give and take on both sides, in all ski resort communities.
> 
> The demand is just too high.  Build a 1,000 unit affordable housing complex in Aspen, Jackson, Tahoe, Colorado, or Bozeman and it'd be sold-out overnight.  It is a much more multi-faceted issue than just paying employees more.  Pay employees 20% more you'd see rent increase 20%.


Bigger resorts need employee housing. It isn't up to the towns. If the ski companies need employees and don't want to pay them then they need to supply housing. Still need to pay them more as well.


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## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Don't tempt me like that.
> 
> Doesn't take much to get me to detour a thread into Subaru bashing


Subaru has a cult following like Magic.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 4, 2022)

Geoff said:


> So you’re saying that on the Tuesday after a holiday week with barely enough staff to run lifts, they’re going to check every plate in their pay lots against their smartphone data base, look up plates, and send a bill to anyone not registered in the database?   It’s private property.  It’s not a real parking ticket.  Mount Snow has no recourse beyond small claims court.


Don’t discount the fact that they waste staff checking Vax passports, at least 3 of them at Attitash the other day according to reports, yet not enough staff to run lifts


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## elks (Jan 4, 2022)

Crotched looks to be adding trail count as they are blowing a base on Pluto's Plunge this morning!


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## cdskier (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> They won't be "chase down" it. They would simply sent the ticket to the register owner's address. The dealership.
> 
> The dealership is going to pay it, then charge it to you.


So you're saying that Vail has access to lookup license plate registration data in state databases? I somehow don't buy that...

They're not "sending a ticket" anywhere. They're putting it on the car in the lot. If people don't pay, Vail simply keeps track in case that car shows up again. If the same car gets a certain number of tickets (3?), then they tow it allegedly. That's really the most they can do.


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## ctdubl07 (Jan 4, 2022)

drjeff said:


> That's a safe bet. Plus with tomorrow having a minimum of a 2nd groom since things froze up last night, the quantity of golf balls should be minimized and converted into machine groomed loose granular over a solid surface where the resurfacing hasn't happened yet


There is also intent to begin to continue the traditional Nitro buildout this week. 
Preseason freestyle plans were to bring back the half-pipe but its possible that build is shelved due to lateness of season now. 
I also believe the days or the large Inferno hits are gone


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## Geoff (Jan 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So you're saying that Vail has access to lookup license plate registration data in state databases? I somehow don't buy that...
> 
> They're not "sending a ticket" anywhere. They're putting it on the car in the lot. If people don't pay, Vail simply keeps track in case that car shows up again. If the same car gets a certain number of tickets (3?), then they tow it allegedly. That's really the most they can do.


Yep.  Besides, it’s moot.  I’m row 1 in the free Carinthia lot.


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## drjeff (Jan 4, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> There is also intent to begin to continue the traditional Nitro buildout this week.
> Preseason freestyle plans were to bring back the half-pipe but its possible that build is shelved due to lateness of season now.
> I also believe the days or the large Inferno hits are gone



Agree. Nitro sure seems like it's about got enough snow on it to push out to make it's build anytime now.

Half pipe?  Well maybe if mother nature gets her act in gear ASAP it still might happen 

Inferno - not sure if it will get a build out to it's HUGE features. Some of what I have aleso heard is that until they can get South Bowl open for race training that Inferno is a deafult for a race training venue since it doesn't require setting as much b-netting as Ego does for training.  I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks if they start hammering Inferno or not....


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## Mainer (Jan 4, 2022)

The simple solution to getting more staff is paying better. Start any employee working outside at $17 an hour. No vaccine mandate if you work outside ( liftees snowmaking.) End of season bonus if you finish out year. Wildcat would have a full snowmaking crew from the Berlin area if they did this. It’s simple. I guarantee the vax checking security guards are one of the best paying position at the atticat. They have no problem filling that job and it sucks. It wouldn’t break the bank to pay more than dunkins.


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## ss20 (Jan 4, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The simple solution to getting more staff is paying better. Start any employee working outside at $17 an hour.  End of season bonus if you finish out year.


I think both of these are fair.  I should clarify...yes, resort emps should be paid better than current.  But I don't think it would be starting at $20...$25...$30/hr as some here say.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

Getting people to wotk at night..in freezing cold..dark..dangerouse..heavy lifting hauling hoses....that will take 20 an hour minimum..


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## PAabe (Jan 4, 2022)

$20 is what landscaping type jobs are paying now and I would consider lugging freezing wet metal equipment up and down a mountain on the night shift for Vail to be far more of an undesirable job than a mom and pop landscaping job


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## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

PAabe said:


> $20 is what landscaping type jobs are paying now and I would consider lugging freezing wet metal equipment up and down a mountain on the night shift for Vail to be far more of an undesirable job than a mom and pop landscaping job


When a Mom and Pop landscaping company can't fill a position, they had to let a landscaping project go (or at least delayed). That's money they don't earn. So they're a lot more motivated to get some "body" at whatever cost that's below their customer pay them. 

When Vail doesn't get some "body" to do the job, they don't lose money. The passes are already sold. 

Now, if they think not running lifts or making snow will impact their next year's pass sale, they might be more motivated. Somehow I have doubt it will have much impact. So yeah, if I were Vail, I'd argue to save the money. Especially when I plan to sell my shares before next season. You get my drift...


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## 2Planker (Jan 4, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Meh.  The repair isn’t going to cost me a dime.  I have a 7/100k extended warranty.   It’s a 6 cylinder that doesn’t have the issues of the 4 cylinder.  This Forester loaner is very unrefined compared to mine.  No way I’d own a car with a normally aspirated Subaru 4-cylinder.   I haven’t driven a turbo to have an opinion.





chuckstah said:


> Last I knew Sunday River pays snow makers $20. A friend did it for a bit 2 seasons ago. Not sure of current rate.


Maybe in his 2nd season..??
 Now they offering $15 for rookies w/ no experience.
DD's & McD's in Norway are starting at $16.50 w/ FREE FOOD


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## Geoff (Jan 4, 2022)

The problem is that Vail isn’t charging enough for season passes.  If the charged, inflation adjusted, what a season pass used to cost in 1990 before discount passes happened, they could afford full time staff with benefits and could afford to pay market rate for the rest of the help.  

Of course, then the perpetual complainers would complain about prices. 

My Killington pass in the 1980s used to break even at 21 or 22 days at the weekend/holiday day ticket rate.  Easily $2,000 in 2022 dollars.  Thousands of people bought them. For me, the season pass was never the dominant cost for skiing.  Automobile, my bar tab, and housing were the big three.   Last year, my Killington place with no mortgage cost $12k to own even if it sat empty.  When I was an every weekender, my car was an enormous expense.  I don’t even want to think about what I spent in food & beverage on the Killington Access Road.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

Geoff said:


> The problem is that Vail isn’t charging enough for season passes.  If the charged, inflation adjusted, what a season pass used to cost in 1990 before discount passes happened, they could afford full time staff with benefits and could afford to pay market rate for the rest of the help.
> 
> Of course, then the perpetual complainers would complain about prices.
> 
> My Killington pass in the 1980s used to break even at 21 or 22 days at the weekend/holiday day ticket rate.  Easily $2,000 in 2022 dollars.  Thousands of people bought them. For me, the season pass was never the dominant cost for skiing.  Automobile, my bar tab, and housing were the big three.   Last year, my Killington place with no mortgage cost $12k to own even if it sat empty.  When I was an every weekender, my car was an enormous expense.  I don’t even want to think about what I spent in food & beverage on the Killington Access Road.



the low pass price is also the cause of the crowding. if they sold half as many passes for twice as much money the customer experience would be a whole lot better. its a race to the bottom for them.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 4, 2022)




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## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the low pass price is also the cause of the crowding. if they sold half as many passes for twice as much money the customer experience would be a whole lot better. its a race to the bottom for them.


Vail calculates if they half the pass price, they'll sell MORE THAN double the number of passes. 

They're probably right. So they got more money. 

The only way to counter that is not to buy Vail passes. How many of the bitching public will NOT buy another Epic pass next year? Raise your hand.


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## thebigo (Jan 4, 2022)

Geoff said:


> The problem is that Vail isn’t charging enough for season passes.  If the charged, inflation adjusted, what a season pass used to cost in 1990 before discount passes happened, they could afford full time staff with benefits and could afford to pay market rate for the rest of the help.
> 
> Of course, then the perpetual complainers would complain about prices.
> 
> My Killington pass in the 1980s used to break even at 21 or 22 days at the weekend/holiday day ticket rate.  Easily $2,000 in 2022 dollars.  Thousands of people bought them. For me, the season pass was never the dominant cost for skiing.  Automobile, my bar tab, and housing were the big three.   Last year, my Killington place with no mortgage cost $12k to own even if it sat empty.  When I was an every weekender, my car was an enormous expense.  I don’t even want to think about what I spent in food & beverage on the Killington Access Road.


The pass price is equivalent to a cover charge at an expensive bar. Unlimited NH should be $999 with roughly 15 blackouts at all areas out of state, unlimited everywhere should be $1500.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Vail calculates if they half the pass price, they'll sell MORE THAN double the number of passes.
> 
> They're probably right. So they got more money.
> 
> The only way to counter that is not to buy Vail passes. How many of the bitching public will NOT buy another Epic pass next year? Raise your hand.



I didn't buy one this year based on last year's performance.  I know five skiing families I'm close with that had 18 passes across that group who did the same.   These are people who spend quite a bit on resort F&B too.  Not just in it for the pass.  

I venture that several members of this forum who gave them another chance due to Covid last year thinking it would be better are regretting that decision.   It's beyond obvious that Ikon are performing better in New England.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 4, 2022)

abc said:


> Vail calculates if they half the pass price, they'll sell MORE THAN double the number of passes.
> 
> They're probably right. So they got more money.
> 
> The only way to counter that is not to buy Vail passes. How many of the bitching public will NOT buy another Epic pass next year? Raise your hand.


I won’t. I also won’t set foot on one of their mountains this year unless I am skinning up for free. Who else is in?


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

Im going to see how it goes..since i have a pass already...but...since i can hit stowe or SB in the same amount of drive time...i could go ikon only next year...


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## abc (Jan 4, 2022)

I too, already had a Epic pass for this season. Though I wouldn't have had one had I not got some credit carried over from previous year that I would have lost.

Many of my skiing buddies had left Vail. I'll have to ski alone a lot this year. So it's almost certain I will be going over to Ikon next year.

That said, I just don't know how representative we're of the skiing population.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Im going to see how it goes..since i have a pass already...but...since i can hit stowe or SB in the same amount of drive time...i could go ikon only next year...



your calculus is different tho as a retired now local person who i presume can ski midweek. i would hope that once we finally have some fucking snow your stowe experience will be normal and good on random tuesday in feb. as much as i would hate to pay vail, i'd still buy access to stowe in your scenario. but i'd also have other options for all weekends and holidays, whether ikon, indy, jay/burke, smuggs, mrg, or some combo


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## 2Planker (Jan 4, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I know five skiing families I'm close with that had 18 passes across that group who did the same.   These are people who spend quite a bit on resort F&B too.  Not just in it for the pass.


Same here.  6 ski families on our private rd. 
 All here since 2004-7
3 permanent residency & 3 MA/RI ski houses.
*TOTAL 21 Passes.  NOW ZERO. We all bailed on Vail.*
5 worked for WC/AT (Patrol, Instructors,  lifties)

We figured that  just our group was good for $20K/year. Probably more like $25K, when you count F&B, Retail shop
Not to mention losing 2 OEC Senior Level Patrollers w/ more than 25 years experience who worked every weekend for FREE.

I've been in the ski industry since 1982, and this is the worst I've ever seen.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Jan 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> your calculus is different tho as a retired now local person who i presume can ski midweek. i would hope that once we finally have some fucking snow your stowe experience will be normal and good on random tuesday in feb. as much as i would hate to pay vail, i'd still buy access to stowe in your scenario. but i'd also have other options for all weekends and holidays, whether ikon, indy, jay/burke, smuggs, mrg, or some combo


Passes are cheap enough to buy one of each. I worry what will happen to Ikon resorts next year. Mostly just my resort


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

It would be a shame to not ski stowe due to Fails mismanagement..it really is a great mountain..
And yes..passes are so cheap its easy to buy both..
But man..ive skied the same few runs for weeks now...november was the best..snowstorm..huge moguls..now its all just flat icy groomers...which ive been using as a warmup for jackson...


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## JimG. (Jan 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> It would be a shame to not ski stowe due to Fails mismanagement..it really is a great mountain..
> And yes..passes are so cheap its easy to buy both..
> But man..ive skied the same few runs for weeks now...november was the best..snowstorm..huge moguls..now its all just flat icy groomers...which ive been using as a warmup for jackson...


When are you heading to Jackson?


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## snoseek (Jan 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> I won’t. I also won’t set foot on one of their mountains this year unless I am skinning up for free. Who else is in?


I intend to use my pass till the spring but nit give those fuckers another dime under any circumstances. I'm mostly at cannon anyhow. Next year will be cannon plus something chill and independent.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 4, 2022)

If you've already gotten a pass, I don't see any reason not to use it this season. In fact if you get decent conditions, higher utilization per purchase, especially without F&B sales to pad things out, hurts their metrics.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

JimG. said:


> When are you heading to Jackson?


22nd


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## snoseek (Jan 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> It would be a shame to not ski stowe due to Fails mismanagement..it really is a great mountain..
> And yes..passes are so cheap its easy to buy both..
> But man..ive skied the same few runs for weeks now...november was the best..snowstorm..huge moguls..now its all just flat icy groomers...which ive been using as a warmup for jackson...


This was my dilemma going into the season. I mostly ski midweek and I loved the portfolio so much I bit and hoped they turned things around. Its a good deal if.you can cherry pick days but I guess I doesn't matter if the company can't run a somewhat functional area.

I worked for this company for many years. As much shit people gave them about things then, this is much different and it's not just nh. This would have been unthinkable even 5 years ago. It's not just the diehards but the masses are taking note.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2022)

Hopefully enough take notice and make a difference...send a message...


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## skimagic (Jan 5, 2022)

*"NOW ZERO. We all bailed on Vail"*

I see a new opportunity for a Facebook page titled "Bail on Vail".

I'm also on the midweek day trip camp and was waiting to see how Vail ran midweek operations at the Southern VT resorts and how crowded it would be given that it seems everyone now has a flex work lifestyle.  so that leaves IKON. or  freelancing  with the VT 4pass, INDY and cheap pico tickets.  I suppose the ski clubs are dead forever.


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 5, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I didn't buy one this year based on last year's performance.  I know five skiing families I'm close with that had 18 passes across that group who did the same.   These are people who spend quite a bit on resort F&B too.  Not just in it for the pass.
> 
> I venture that several members of this forum who gave them another chance due to Covid last year thinking it would be better are regretting that decision.   It's beyond obvious that Ikon are performing better in New England.


I gave up my Epic pass for Ikon as well. It was waaaaay too crowded at Mt. Snow and tooo crazy at Hunter.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2022)

NYSnowflake said:


> I gave up my Epic pass for Ikon as well. It was waaaaay too crowded at Mt. Snow and tooo crazy at Hunter.


Which IKON areas do you frequent?


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## NYSnowflake (Jan 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Which IKON areas do you frequent?


So far just Sugarbush this year… but in the past I have enjoyed Pico and Stratton. I will be going to Sunday River in February.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 6, 2022)

Too Big to Vail: The Downfall of the North American Mega Resort | The Inertia
					

Locals at Vail Resorts-run mountains like Stevens Pass and Whistler are starting to say, "enough is enough," pushing back against lift lines and low wages.




					www.theinertia.com


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## pinion247 (Jan 6, 2022)

Colorado Sun has been working this story for a few weeks. Conway Daily Sun (not as big but hey it's something) working the beat. WSJ is queuing up something as well. Let the pile-on begin and maybe the Vail's stock price will move in a direction that means spending some free cash where it's needed, not just in NE but across their entire portfolio. 

I stuck with Epic this year so my 9-year-old could do All Mountain team at Wildcat. It's the only reason - and I still feel a valuable reason. Hearing about Whistler cancelling their seasonal kids program hurts. As much as a am nostalgically tied to Wildcat if that happened it would be goodbye for a very long time.


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## 2Planker (Jan 6, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Colorado Sun has been working this story for a few weeks. Conway Daily Sun (not as big but hey it's something) working the beat. WSJ is queuing up something as well. Let the pile-on begin and maybe the Vail's stock price will move in a direction that means spending some free cash where it's needed, not just in NE but across their entire portfolio.
> 
> I stuck with Epic this year so my 9-year-old could do All Mountain team at Wildcat. It's the only reason - and I still feel a valuable reason. Hearing about Whistler cancelling their seasonal kids program hurts. As much as a am nostalgically tied to Wildcat if that happened it would be goodbye for a very long time.


They did cancel a lot of the kids stuff.  SAD, I grew up skiing there as a kid in the 70's
 almost 60 years.... Now it's Shawnee, BW, Black, Cranmore and King Pine.
NO Vail Fail for the 25 of us !!!!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Colorado Sun has been working this story for a few weeks. Conway Daily Sun (not as big but hey it's something) working the beat. WSJ is queuing up something as well. Let the pile-on begin and maybe the Vail's stock price will move in a direction that means spending some free cash where it's needed, not just in NE but across their entire portfolio.
> 
> I stuck with Epic this year so my 9-year-old could do All Mountain team at Wildcat. It's the only reason - and I still feel a valuable reason. Hearing about Whistler cancelling their seasonal kids program hurts. As much as a am nostalgically tied to Wildcat if that happened it would be goodbye for a very long time.


Vail Stock is up 5.89% today; down 12.85% over the last five days.  So I think that means turn off snowmaking today.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 6, 2022)

Yup


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2022)

Meanwhile back in Utah at Park City.....









						Park City ski patrol union, Vail Resorts fail to reach wage agreement in 47th bargaining session since 2020
					

After nearly a year and half of negotiations, the Park City Professional Ski Patrol Association and Vail Resorts have failed for to reach a compromise for a wage increase for the resorts ski patrollers in Park City, Utah.




					www.sltrib.com


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## 2Planker (Jan 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile back in Utah at Park City.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ridiculous $13.25/hr
Take those same EMT level certifications/skills to any Ambulance Co. and get $25/hr as an EMT, or $35+ as a Paramedic.
 Work for a municipality and it's approaching $60/hr


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## Jersey Skier (Jan 6, 2022)

Just wanted to give a shout out to Vail for paying for my day on the slopes of Belleayre yesterday.

As an Ex Epic pass holder I filled out a questionnaire last year and must have been entered into a contest to win a $200 Amex gift card.  Since I can spend this anywhere it will all go to non-epic resorts to buy lift tickets.


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## abc (Jan 6, 2022)

Jersey Skier said:


> As an Ex Epic pass holder I filled out a questionnaire last year and must have been entered into a contest to win a $200 Amex gift card. Since I can spend this anywhere it will all go to non-epic resorts to buy lift tickets.


Hope you didn't moan against Vail too harshly in that questionnaire?


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## nh2maboarder (Jan 6, 2022)

Back in like October some friends and I booked a trip to Mt. Snow for early Feb. We're planning on skiing Friday and Sat, hopefully it doesn't suck... 

Being based in Boston I thought an Epic pass was an obvious choice for the best value but man, I think I'm just gonna do a Ragged Mtn pass next year and maybe stack it with something else.


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## machski (Jan 6, 2022)

I did see where Vail admitted that they inherited quite a bit of deferred or poorly maintained systems in NH.  Don't think they mentioned specifics


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## icecoast1 (Jan 6, 2022)

machski said:


> I did see where Vail admitted that they inherited quite a bit of deferred or poorly maintained systems in NH.  Don't think they mentioned specifics


Maybe, or probably even likely given Peaks financial issues towards the end.  But when you have 1.5 bil in cash on hand and are going on your third winter, that seems like a piss poor excuse


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## machski (Jan 6, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Maybe, or probably even likely given Peaks financial issues towards the end.  But when you have 1.5 bil in cash on hand and are going on your third winter, that seems like a piss poor excuse


Definitely, they should have figured out the snow system issues and started correcting them by now.  They had better hit that hard this summer


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## xlr8r (Jan 6, 2022)

machski said:


> Definitely, they should have figured out the snow system issues and started correcting them by now.  They had better hit that hard this summer



They didn't hit fix the deferred maintenance yet, because they did not hire enough staff working over the summer.


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## Newpylong (Jan 6, 2022)

machski said:


> I did see where Vail admitted that they inherited quite a bit of deferred or poorly maintained systems in NH.  Don't think they mentioned specifics



There are only so many times you can cry wolf... Maybe after 3 years with Vail's pockets they should have been resolved those issues that are causing major problems instead of putting in 13 new lifts.

Peaks had the staff that knew what the hell they were doing to operate the infrastructure, antiquated or not. They all left because they didn't want to work for Vail.

I can tell you for the most part, besides a few obvious issues such as the Attitash Summit lift, maintenace was not that bad under Peaks. Certainly on the snowmaking side they spent coin for better or worse.


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## oldfartrider (Jan 6, 2022)

I thought Wildcat replaced all the chairs on HS quad over the summer?  It seems money is being spent, I can't imagine that was cheap.


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## RichT (Jan 6, 2022)

Hunter's got a mini Geyser spouting water up just a little up Hellgate at the top of the D lift.............second day now. How does that go missed? BTW there isn't any lollipops or signage to warn you.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 6, 2022)

They should go on strike and shut the fucking place down..then see what Fail does...


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## Vince (Jan 6, 2022)

I have an Epic pass and this year bought an Indy pass. On Tuesday I went to Pats Peak over Sunapee for the first time in many years. Great surface conditions, deep base, nice lodge, and very well staffed, just like the way Sunapee used to be. Great effort by whoever owns and runs Pats Peak
Vail sucks they have 1.5 billion in cash and are going to build 20 plus lifts next year. Too cheap to turn the snow guns on and the daily operations are horrible.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2022)

Vince said:


> I have an Epic pass and this year bought an Indy pass. On Tuesday I went to Pats Peak over Sunapee for the first time in many years. Great surface conditions, deep base, nice lodge, and very well staffed, just like the way Sunapee used to be. Great effort by whoever owns and runs Pats Peak
> Vail sucks they have 1.5 billion in cash and are going to build 20 plus lifts next year. Too cheap to turn the snow guns on and the daily operations are horrible.


Pats Peak is, and has been owned continuously, by the Patenaude Family of Henniker (if I spelled the name right).  Their GM is a stand-up guy.  A solid place. Certainly runs very well despite its relatively small size.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Pats Peak is, and has been owned continuously, by the Patenaude Family of Henniker (if I spelled the name right).  Their GM is a stand-up guy.  A solid place. Certainly runs very well despite its relatively small size.



Had our first race of the season last night at Pats Place was still very busy when I pulled in at 7.  Such a well run operation.  Hell of a deal. $100 for 9 weeks I believe.  Can start skiing at 3.  Bring a friend for $25


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 7, 2022)

At least its snowing at stowe


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Had our first race of the season last night at Pats Place was still very busy when I pulled in at 7.  Such a well run operation.  Hell of a deal. $100 for 9 weeks I believe.  Can start skiing at 3.  Bring a friend for $25


Plus ticket price right??


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Plus ticket price right??


Nope


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 7, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Nope


Wow!

I gotta get back into racing... 

lol I was a pass holder at Pats Peak for a couple seasons. Used to race in High School too. Pats Peak is a prime example of how a mountain should be operated. I hope other small mountains like Black of NH take note, since it’s obvious Vail will not!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 7, 2022)




----------



## thebigo (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Had our first race of the season last night at Pats Place was still very busy when I pulled in at 7.  Such a well run operation.  Hell of a deal. $100 for 9 weeks I believe.  Can start skiing at 3.  Bring a friend for $25


Is this a beer league or race league for your kids?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Is this a beer league or race league for your kids?


Beer league


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Plus ticket price right??


No the price includes the lift ticket.  So basically it's $11 per day for skiing from 3 to close with two runs down the course. 

  $700 per team for the season and you can have up to 7 members.  They try and find you free agents if you don't have 7 people on your own.


----------



## Jersey Skier (Jan 7, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 52622


How do they not offer refunds to local Epic pass holders of this place?


----------



## Newpylong (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Had our first race of the season last night at Pats Place was still very busy when I pulled in at 7.  Such a well run operation.  Hell of a deal. $100 for 9 weeks I believe.  Can start skiing at 3.  Bring a friend for $25



Yeah, Blomback (the GM) knows what he's doing. When everyone was installing fancy lifts they did snowmaking, and then snowmaking. When they were done, they did more snowmaking. It's the lifeblood of a ski area around here. I think it shows when they are now constantly smoking many of the big players (and their long time rival Crotched) on a yearly basis to the opening bell. Only when they were comfortable did they put money into lifts, and even then they were smart investments. A hill with the vert of Pat's does not need a high speed lift, they need redundancy and capacity and they have it.

Just a well oiled machine that many look up to as a success story.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 7, 2022)

another Fail by Vail

we actually get some natural snow in PA ~6"  and its 21 degrees.  Buddy is at Roundtop and no snowmaking anywhere and most of the intermediate and expert terrain is not open yet.  Totally embarrassing.   Place is run by total pieces of shit every single one of those people in Broomfield are shit heads.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Hey Attitash folks, Vail hears you on the Summit Triple.  Perhaps this application to the NFS for its replacement will help you "forget" all the problems at Attitash?



			https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

Wow.  Never thought I'd see the day


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Wow.  Never thought I'd see the day


Well, shovel has not met dirt yet, so anything can happen.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 7, 2022)

Wow....the lift that's been due for replacement for half the time it's been there is finally getting replaced....


----------



## machski (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey Attitash folks, Vail hears you on the Summit Triple.  Perhaps this application to the NFS for its replacement will help you "forget" all the problems at Attitash?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


Maybe this summer.  Note, the size (4 or 6) and manufacturer are not locked in.  Given the huge demand on lift manufacturers, I would be surprised Vail could slip one more in.  Unless they decide to shift an already announced detach install somewhere else to Attitash.


----------



## Edd (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey Attitash folks, Vail hears you on the Summit Triple.  Perhaps this application to the NFS for its replacement will help you "forget" all the problems at Attitash?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


How’d you find out about this?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Edd said:


> How’d you find out about this?


Secret source.   

(Liftblog.)


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 7, 2022)

machski said:


> Maybe this summer.  Note, the size (4 or 6) and manufacturer are not locked in.  Given the huge demand on lift manufacturers, I would be surprised Vail could slip one more in.  Unless they decide to shift an already announced detach install somewhere else to Attitash.


My thoughts exactly. I'd bet Mount Snow is losing one of their lift replacements until 2023. Unless Vail has a back-pocket lift system laying around elsewhere


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 52622


I just saw that Vail is reducing hours at several of their former Peaks Resorts.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 7, 2022)

Thankfully its snowing at Stowe..cause they aint blowing..or opening up anything new..


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 7, 2022)

Better hope that Attitash replacement wasn't the passion project of their GM, 'cause Greg Gavrilets is apparently resigning. Now they're short another lifty.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

And in other Attitash news....the GM just resigned


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 7, 2022)

Such a great company....maybe they will blame it on the weather


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> And in other Attitash news....the GM just resigned


So much potential.  I guess we now know that Vail is dysfunctional.


----------



## kendo (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> And in other Attitash news....the GM just resigned


Probably got spanked by the mothership for going off script and getting quoted in the Conway Daily Sun article.   Wildcat resignation in 3 . . . 2 . . .  ??


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey Attitash folks, Vail hears you on the Summit Triple.  Perhaps this application to the NFS for its replacement will help you "forget" all the problems at Attitash?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


Heard they are just gonna take Wildcat's quad and move it to Attitash!


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 7, 2022)

kendo said:


> Probably got spanked by the mothership for going off script and getting quoted in the Conway Daily Sun article.   Wildcat resignation in 3 . . . 2 . . .  ??


That Q&A article was sanctioned via Vail's regional comms director. Likely just had it with the company. If you're a local and living in MWV and everyone likes you but hates the company you work for that's gotta take a toll eventually, right?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

PCMR's COO spoke to the local NPR affiliate yesterday about the operation issues.  It is a 17-minute interview for those that are interested:









						Park City Mountain COO Mike Goar - January 6, 2022
					

Park City Mountain COO Mike Goar explains the challenges the resort has faced over the busy holiday weekend and the outlook for getting the mountain and restaurants open.




					www.kpcw.org


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey Attitash folks, Vail hears you on the Summit Triple.  Perhaps this application to the NFS for its replacement will help you "forget" all the problems at Attitash?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


and if you read that they are already planning for a December opening in winter 2022. 

W....T.....F.....


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> and if you read that they are already planning for a December opening in winter 2022.
> 
> W....T.....F.....


? Attitash almost always opens in Dec.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> ? Attitash almost always opens in Dec.


i thought they were good for late Nov most years. My bad then.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> i thought they were good for late Nov most years. My bad then.


I understand the trepidation though. Wildcat is usually the early opener.

My feeling is that - short of future banner snow years - Wildcat is not going to be first/last in NH to open/close anymore. *Maybe* the snowpack on Bobcat will be deep enough this year to ride into May, but that means reliably running the Bobcat triple 

My fingers are crossed that this isn't the case. Will be up there tomorrow and looking forward to making some early turns before the crowds hit.


----------



## gittist (Jan 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> and if you read that they are already planning for a December opening in winter 2022.
> 
> W....T.....F.....


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

I don't know if it has been posted, but here is the Conway Sun article on Vail's issues.  BTW some of the Wildcat issues were identified by folks in here a while back...









						Vail managers: 'We share in the frustration'
					

BROOMFIELD, Colo. — The Sun on Jan. 3 sent a set of questions to Vail Resorts' Adam White, senior manager of resort communications, Northeast Region, and received the following responses




					www.conwaydailysun.com


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> I understand the trepidation though. Wildcat is usually the early opener.
> 
> My feeling is that - short of future banner snow years - Wildcat is not going to be first/last in NH to open/close anymore. *Maybe* the snowpack on Bobcat will be deep enough this year to ride into May, but that means reliably running the Bobcat triple
> 
> My fingers are crossed that this isn't the case. Will be up there tomorrow and looking forward to making some early turns before the crowds hit.


Roger that got them flipped for a minute. 

I don't think any vail mountains will open in November in the future without a huge hand from mother nature.

I'll be a at Sunapee with my daughter tomorrow early, hopefully the lines will be better than last week with the other lift open on the bottom of the main mountain.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 7, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> i thought they were good for late Nov most years. My bad then.


I remember driving from Killington to Attitash with my then girlfriend one Thanksgiving because Killington was lousy and friends reported that Attitash had blown a lot of snow.  Doug Flutie hit a miracle pass against Miami we watched apres ski so November 24, 1984.   That’s as current as I have about Attitash November skiing. LOL


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> I understand the trepidation though. Wildcat is usually the early opener.
> 
> My feeling is that - short of future banner snow years - Wildcat is not going to be first/last in NH to open/close anymore. *Maybe* the snowpack on Bobcat will be deep enough this year to ride into May, but that means reliably running the Bobcat triple
> 
> My fingers are crossed that this isn't the case. Will be up there tomorrow and looking forward to making some early turns before the crowds hit.



Late April or May turns at Wildcat are done under Vail.  They already published closing dates.  Everything in the East is done by second weekend in April save for Stowe, which goes one more weekend.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Late April or May turns at Wildcat are done under Vail.  They already published closing dates.  Everything in the East is done by second weekend in April save for Stowe, which goes one more weekend.


Last year they announced an extension to the season (4/18) but only made it to the 11th. I'm not going to completely give up hope that they'd run until May if the snow was good enough. Perhaps I am too optimistic. Not promising for this year for sure though.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Last year they announced an extension to the season (4/18) but only made it to the 11th. I'm not going to completely give up hope that they'd run until May if the snow was good enough. Perhaps I am too optimistic. Not promising for this year for sure though.



I don't have any skin in the game.  I pulled the plug on Wildcat due to Vail sucking.  I hope for those who have stayed skiing there that you are right.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 7, 2022)

I think that lift application is just for the double double replacement. No guns at wildcat today. It had that nice New England yellow ice at all intersections and corners. 1.5 trails off the summit


----------



## abc (Jan 7, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Last year they announced an extension to the season (4/18) but only made it to the 11th. I'm not going to completely give up hope that they'd run until May if the snow was good enough. Perhaps I am too optimistic. Not promising for this year for sure though.


For those who aren't stuck with Vail for next season, there's always the easy option of taking advantage of Ikon pass's spring benefit. Get the pass for next season and ski the Alterra resorts this spring (till whenever they close).


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I think that lift application is just for the double double replacement. No guns at wildcat today. It had that nice New England yellow ice at all intersections and corners. 1.5 trails off the summit


Nope.  The lift application was for the Summit Triple.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 7, 2022)

You’re right. I read hall double and thought double double.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Mainer said:


> You’re right. I read hall double and thought double double.


Honestly, the application discusses the old double being removed and it seemed odd.  But it makes sense in that they are saying that capacity to the summit had already been reduced.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Honestly, the application discusses the old double being removed and it seemed odd.  But it makes sense in that they are saying that capacity to the summit had already been reduced.


Note that the application actually references both lifts, with a focus on the HSQ/HS6 replacing the Summit Triple but also a quick reference to the possibility of a quad OR triple chair replacing the double doubles.  I'm sure Attitash patrons would be thrilled if Vail walked back their announcement of a quad for that line.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Note that the application actually references both lifts, with a focus on the HSQ/HS6 replacing the Summit Triple but also a quick reference to the possibility of a quad OR triple chair replacing the double doubles.  I'm sure Attitash patrons would be thrilled if Vail walked back their announcement of a quad for that line.


I don't think Vail has announced anything; instead, a couple people found their NFS Application.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 7, 2022)

__





						Stevens Pass skiers snowed – The Seattle Times
					





					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jan 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think Vail has announced anything; instead, a couple people found their NFS Application.


I'm referring to the announcement they made in the Epic Lift Upgrade where they committed to replacing the double doubles with a quad.  Given the reference to that possibly being a triple in this filing, that opens the door to a scenario where they switch course.


----------



## machski (Jan 7, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I'm referring to the announcement they made in the Epic Lift Upgrade where they committed to replacing the double doubles with a quad.  Given the reference to that possibly being a triple in this filing, that opens the door to a scenario where they switch course.


It is quite possible this application predates the original Epic Lift Upgrade announcement.  Remember, the Double Double line is plenty wide enough for a quad (the quad will actually be a narrower line than the D-D) so it is a simple swap out.  For the Summit chair, they have to widen the cleared line corridor, quite a bit if they go 6 and still substantially for a quad.  And all the upper line is fully on NFS land.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 7, 2022)

I'll believe that piece of shit triple is gone when the first person loads the new char. Something will change or go wrong.

Also the GM bounced mid season? That should be interesting going forward.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 7, 2022)

I can’t find a date on the application. Attitash needs to run something mid mountain all the time. Most all the  intermediate terrain and all the beginner terrain beside the learning center triple is mid mountain. It’s a giant leap to go learning center to the triple. Hopefully they actually put in a new lift to replace double double. Something big enough to accommodate people with more then one small child. I do want a new lift to the summit but not a six pack, those trails are always steep and icy. Imagine 3x the people up there.
  I actually feel bad for the gm at attitash that resigned. He was young and inexperienced, they should have tried to keep the old gm for a year in a consulting role. His downfall was the triple. U can’t trust that lift, to double down And make that the only lift running some days. But how much is on vail and how much is on him. I’m guessing mostly vail. So the smart move for Greg was probably folding and getting the hell out. It’s too small of a town to take that kind of shit all day every day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I can’t find a date on the application. Attitash needs to run something mid mountain all the time. Most all the  intermediate terrain and all the beginner terrain beside the learning center triple is mid mountain. It’s a giant leap to go learning center to the triple. Hopefully they actually put in a new lift to replace double double. Something big enough to accommodate people with more then one small child. I do want a new lift to the summit but not a six pack, those trails are always steep and icy. Imagine 3x the people up there.
> I actually feel bad for the gm at attitash that resigned. He was young and inexperienced, they should have tried to keep the old gm for a year in a consulting role. His downfall was the triple. U can’t trust that lift, to double down And make that the only lift running some days. But how much is on vail and how much is on him. I’m guessing mostly vail. So the smart move for Greg was probably folding and getting the hell out. It’s too small of a town to take that kind of shit all day every day.


The application was dated September 2, 2021.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 7, 2022)

The announcement of epic lift upgrades is after that application is submitted. Something is odd about the date that application being publicized and the gm’s resignation too.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 8, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The announcement of epic lift upgrades is after that application is submitted. Something is odd about the date that application being publicized and the gm’s resignation too.


Plot thickens...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The announcement of epic lift upgrades is after that application is submitted. Something is odd about the date that application being publicized and the gm’s resignation too.


A buddy of mine had the same thought.

I agree with you about the limited terrain available off the summit to handle a higher capacity lift.

My thought is they widen and neuter Tightrope.  It's not that steep of a trail.  Widening it could make it more of a blue like Northwest Passage vs the black it is today.  It would be a shame as I enjoy that trail as it exists today.  But only having Northwest Passage and Saco off the top isn't enough capacity for the volume of intermediate skiers a HSQ or Six would put up there.


----------



## machski (Jan 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> A buddy of mine had the same thought.
> 
> I agree with you about the limited terrain available off the summit to handle a higher capacity lift.
> 
> My thought is they widen and neuter Tightrope.  It's not that steep of a trail.  Widening it could make it more of a blue like Northwest Passage vs the black it is today.  It would be a shame as I enjoy that trail as it exists today.  But only having Northwest Passage and Saco off the top isn't enough capacity for the volume of intermediate skiers a HSQ or Six would put up there.


My $$ would be on a quad as a six would require the line to be widened more than a 4 would.  But if they get the wider clearing approved by the NFS, remember a Six can have the exact same capacity as a quad, just with greater carrier spacing.  That gives more time between loadings/unloads and helps cutdown on slow/stops for misloads.


----------



## machski (Jan 8, 2022)

As an aside, I can still remember when LBO put in the Yankee.  We were all like, what, a HSQ up that short of a line and we have to freeze on the summit triple?  The answer was always that the Yankee line is not on NFS land and so they could toss that up without issue.  The summit was constrained on runs as DHS has noted for a HSQ but more so was the NFS permitting.  Something that at the time, LBO had zero experience with since this was his 2nd resort and SR is completely on private, non forest service lands.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

I don't have an issue with the Yankee other than it's design using the Triple lift tower which probably is part of the reason why it has taken so long to plan and install a new summit lift.  It just makes things more complicated.

But the Yankee itself makes sense.  Attitash needs a mid mountain lift due to lack of terrain to spread people out up top.  I suppose an argument could be made that the length is a bit short for a high speed chair at 3070 feet, but I'll take that over a fixed grip any day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have an issue with the Yankee other than it's design using the Triple lift tower which probably is part of the reason why it has taken so long to plan and install a new summit lift.  It just makes things more complicated.
> 
> But the Yankee itself makes sense.  Attitash needs a mid mountain lift due to lack of terrain to spread people out up top.  I suppose an argument could be made that the length is a bit short for a high speed chair at 3070 feet, but I'll take that over a fixed grip any day.


It’s probably the NFS and an EIS that is/was the deterrent to replacing the Triple.  Looks like Vail decided they had to deal with it regardless.  The shared tower probably adds engineering issues and costs.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

Anyone at wildcat today that can comment on wind? I see they have the hsq on windhold and are skiing off tomcat. Was wondering if its actually wind or a bigger issue


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

Not a Vail Resort, but this seems to depict what skiing at a Vail Resort is like this year:


----------



## Geoff (Jan 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Not a Vail Resort, but this seems to depict what skiing at a Vail Resort is like this year:
> 
> View attachment 52630


That would mean they’re running water pumps and compressors.   Couldn’t possibly be a Vail resort according to this thread.   Stop with the fake news!


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

I'm sorry it doesn't seem likely that wind is that big of a factor up there. Trams running it seems so why the fuck is the hsq not turning on a saturday?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm sorry it doesn't seem likely that wind is that big of a factor up there. Trams running it seems so why the fuck is the hsq not turning on a saturday?


Crisis.  Vail's stock dropped almost 7% in one day yesterday.  They must recoup that loss.


----------



## machski (Jan 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm sorry it doesn't seem likely that wind is that big of a factor up there. Trams running it seems so why the fuck is the hsq not turning on a saturday?


I assume you refer to Cannon's Tram?  Different animal completely being a double track ropeway system.  Can tolerate wind much better than a detachable singke rope tram.  Can't compare the two really.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 8, 2022)

The Cannon tram isn't detachable and weighs just a bit more than a typical HSQ chair, too.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

machski said:


> I assume you refer to Cannon's Tram?  Different animal completely being a double track ropeway system.  Can tolerate wind much better than a detachable singke rope tram.  Can't compare the two really.


Ok I hear you but sitting down in Southern NH looking at the noaa forecast for today it doesn't look overly windy. Maybe 30mph? Maybe it's real gusty or something.


----------



## machski (Jan 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Ok I hear you but sitting down in Southern NH looking at the noaa forecast for today it doesn't look overly windy. Maybe 30mph? Maybe it's real gusty or something.


30 doesn't seem like much, but direction is the key.  If that is all crosswind at the top terminal, that is likely to cause too much chair swing to enter the terminal and wheel tracks to detach safely.  The tram doesn't have to contend with that, they slow it down entering the terminals and it is designed to bump into the guide rails at the stations as it does not detach from the two track ropes nor the haul rope.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 8, 2022)




----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

Vail thinks that Attitash has ski patrollers to spare.  And that they will serve as scabs at PCMR if a strike occurs.









						Vail Resorts prepares for possible Park City ski patrol strike, says email seeking replacements was ‘not authorized’
					

An email leaked on Instagram on Friday appeared to show an effort to attract temporary patrollers to Park City for $600 per day plus travel expenses. Vail Resorts said Friday that the email was "not authorized," but that it is preparing for a possible strike by the Park City ski patrol union...




					www.sltrib.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)




----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail thinks that Attitash has ski patrollers to spare.  And that they will serve as scabs at PCMR if a strike occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no idea the amount of patrolled attitash has but would imagine things are pretty thin. Stripping nh even further to keep that money machine printing is a giant fuck you to nh skiers.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

Great idea.  Pay 5 times the normal rate for scabs instead of just getting an agreement in place with their patrol.  Idiots


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Great idea.  Pay 5 times the normal rate for scabs instead of just getting an agreement in place with their patrol.  Idiots


....and suffer the negative PR from doing it.


----------



## Terry (Jan 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Anyone at wildcat today that can comment on wind? I see they have the hsq on windhold and are skiing off tomcat. Was wondering if its actually wind or a bigger issue


Not at Wildcat but skied Shawnee Peak this morning and 0 wind. Place was crazy busy so we left.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2022)

Terry said:


> Not at Wildcat but skied Shawnee Peak this morning and 0 wind. Place was crazy busy so we left.


Any talk about what Boyne is doing, if anything, in the offseason for improvements?


----------



## Terry (Jan 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Any talk about what Boyne is doing, if anything, in the offseason for improvements?


Nothing that I have heard yet but they have been cranking the snowmaking every window they get which is nice. Used to only run at night but running around the clock as temps allow.


----------



## Edd (Jan 8, 2022)

Taking patrollers from Attitash to cover anywhere else boggles my mind.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

So apparently a chair fell off the snowcat lift today. With people on it. I saw it on Facebook and immediately thought fake news but someone posted a pic of the damage so hopefully everyone involved is OK.

Yeah let's keep our fucking patrollers local!


----------



## gittist (Jan 8, 2022)

Could your share the link for the chairlift issue? Can't say that I'm surprised...


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 8, 2022)




----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 8, 2022)

This is the year of chairlift issues for all resorts it seems. The last way I expect to get injured skiing is from the lift but maybe I should reevaluate that thought.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 8, 2022)

It was off an epic passholders northeast fb group. It's fb so I'll wait for full story but there was indeed an after pic with chair on ground.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Not a Vail Resort, but this seems to depict what skiing at a Vail Resort is like this year:
> 
> View attachment 52630


Give them a few more weeks Vail will top this.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> It was off an epic passholders northeast fb group. It's fb so I'll wait for full story but there was indeed an after pic with chair on ground.


Can you share the pic? I don’t have Facebook


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

Here you go


----------



## RichT (Jan 8, 2022)

Today at Hunter.............I have NEVER seen it this bad.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 8, 2022)

Well now we get to compare Alterra (well, KSL - Camelback) and Vail's response to the independent operators (recently, Beech and Magic) to chairlift accidents.

I'd prefer to have a lot less data to work with.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 8, 2022)

Jesus the ski world is a dumpster fire of all time right now


----------



## Edd (Jan 8, 2022)

Edd said:


> I haven't been to Catitash yet this season but the idea of riding their lifts is starting to make me nervous.


Recent quote from me.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 8, 2022)

Vail has been a shitshow in PA today apparently:

Lines for miles to get into whitetail and Jack Frost, and hours long lines guest services and the lifts for WROD

Vail apparently forgot about their youth program scheduled in mornings at Big Boulder, apparently everyone showed up and nobody was there because BB doesn't open until 3pm this year

Worth noting that, as the case elsewhere, Vail's competitors have far more terrain open.  Bear Creek for example, father southeast and lower than JFBB, went from 0% to 100% since Thursday.  Temperatures below freezing all week and several inches of natural snow here and yet snowmaking equipment has barely been observed running.  These Vail areas here are capable of really throwing out massive amounts of snow in weather like this (but they are not)











__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/SkiPA/comments/rz4x03





__





						DCSki Forums
					

A vibrant community of skiers and snowboarders.




					www.dcski.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

Nothing to see here folks


Sorry, can't copy the Tweet.  Wildcat only tweeted out

The Snowcat Triple is closed for the remainder of the day for maintenance


----------



## elks (Jan 8, 2022)

Crotched doing a big snowmaking push again today. Guns on all day throughout the mountain including new terrain like Pluto getting massive whales and likely opening soon.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 8, 2022)

Edd said:


> Taking patrollers from Attitash to cover anywhere else boggles my mind.


Total BS   Attitash doesn't have enough Patrollers to cover their own Mt.

But I do know quite a few Ex AT/WC Patrollers who might be interested


----------



## skibum636 (Jan 8, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Vail has been a shitshow in PA today apparently:
> 
> Lines for miles to get into whitetail and Jack Frost, and hours long lines guest services and the lifts for WROD
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people will buy a pass next year to do this again.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 8, 2022)

RichT said:


> Today at Hunter.............I have NEVER seen it this bad.View attachment 52634





RichT said:


> Today at Hunter.............I have NEVER seen it this bad.View attachment 52634


Long lift lines at Hunter aren't unheard of, but it was friggin' nuts today.


----------



## Dickc (Jan 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Nothing to see here folks
> 
> 
> Sorry, can't copy the Tweet.  Wildcat only tweeted out
> ...











						Chair Detaches from Wildcat Lift
					

Photo credit: Mic Murphy A triple chair fell near the base of Wildcat Mountain’s Snowcat lift this afternoon, sending one person to the hospital. The lift involved is a 1974 Riblet servicing …




					liftblog.com


----------



## Mainer (Jan 8, 2022)

Rode that chair yesterday. Having a chair at magic and wildcat falling off in the last week or so is nuts. I can’t recall ever hearing of this happening


----------



## gittist (Jan 8, 2022)

What is "WROD"?


----------



## gittist (Jan 8, 2022)

skibum636 said:


> I wonder how many people will buy a pass next year to do this again.


With lines like this why should Vail do anything different?


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 8, 2022)

Timberline, Blue, and Tussey have all dropped more chairs than that, but in single incidents that hit more chairs at once. Two dropped chairs plus the Beech fountain isn't a great look for sure. 

WROD usually means white road of death, a narrow strip of snowmaking surrounded by rocks/grass/dirt/mud.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Jan 8, 2022)

As nuts as the base area chairs were at Hunter (after 915 - they were OK earlier), the F chair never had more than an 8 minute line for a single and the North lift was under a minute into the afternoon. I got 13 runs in from 845-1 and only waited in that crazy line once,.after stopping for food/bathroom from 1030-11. That 11 am line was about 25 min for a single so I did not come back to the base tip I was at a stage where I was ready to call it quits if the line was bad.

Makes sense there were huge crowds given what a let down holiday skiing had been, that it had just snowed big in NYC/NJ, and that Sunday is gonna be crappy weather for skiing. This was the day for everyone to come out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 8, 2022)

gittist said:


> What is "WROD"?


White Ribbon of Death.  Eastern term for limited early season terrain availability


----------



## abc (Jan 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> White Ribbon of Death.  Eastern term for limited early season terrain availability


Not just eastern any more. Many western skiers found out what that means this season.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 8, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> As nuts as the base area chairs were at Hunter (after 915 - they were OK earlier), the F chair never had more than an 8 minute line for a single and the North lift was under a minute into the afternoon. I got 13 runs in from 845-1 and only waited in that crazy line once,.after stopping for food/bathroom from 1030-11. That 11 am line was about 25 min for a single so I did not come back to the base tip I was at a stage where I was ready to call it quits if the line was bad.
> 
> Makes sense there were huge crowds given what a let down holiday skiing had been, that it had just snowed big in NYC/NJ, and that Sunday is gonna be crappy weather for skiing. This was the day for everyone to come out.


F chair wait was way longer than 8 minutes throughout the day.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Jan 8, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> F chair wait was way longer than 8 minutes throughout the day.


Not for a single the 7 times I rode it 930-12. Given I rode the Flyer 3 times too, there was no way I could have gotten in 13 runs by 1, and taken a lunch break, if those 7 runs lines were much longer than that


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2022)

lol. i went to stratton today. i skied 30,000 vertical from 8:30 - 2:15. there were lines, but nothing remotely comparable to that. and singles line was never more than 3 minutes tops for ursa or snowbowl. lol 'epic'


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Jan 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. i went to stratton today. i skied 30,000 vertical from 8:30 - 2:15. there were lines, but nothing remotely comparable to that. and singles line was never more than 3 minutes tops for ursa or snowbowl. lol 'epic'


It was certainly crazy crowded at Hunter no doubt. And I won't be there on a Sat again til crowds die down in March.. I'm just saying only morons waited in lines like those pictured more than once.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 9, 2022)

only morons own epic passes.


----------



## gittist (Jan 9, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> White Ribbon of Death.  Eastern term for limited early season terrain availability


Thank you for the definition.  It seems that term is applicable to everywhere on a weekend whether it's early season or not!


----------



## Edd (Jan 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some dude went missing on xmas at Northstar and is likely upside down dead in a tree well. a competent skier who managed the local surefoot, but was new to tahoe apparently. i caught wind of it from an unofficial networks or snowbrains post a few days ago. this is obviously tragic. but last night a friend who is a casual skier and former sf/tahoe person posted to Instagram ranting and raving at Northstar for promoting the recent big historic snow and big-time conditions (assuming they've even dug out and the roads are open?). i went to the northstar post and found the comments almost universally piling on them about promoting the big snow and not mentioning the missing skier. i hate vail as much as the next guy here, but i didn't agree with these commenters, who seemed to think the business of being a ski resort should stop because one patron has tragically been lost and is probably dead. skiing is inherently risky, and we all acknowledge that legally every time we ride a lift with our pass or buy a day ticket. this fella went out by himself in a huge storm and he had a bad accident, but i dont think northstar/vail needs to stop their business in its tracks over it after a giant storm in a holiday week


Found.









						Body of skier last seen at Northstar on Christmas Day found after two-week search
					

The body of Rory Angelotta, who went missing Christmas Day at Northstar, was found on Saturday outside the ski resort.



					www.rgj.com


----------



## catskillman (Jan 9, 2022)

Vail has time to spend on this:  While I agree it they pretty much plagarized the logo and name. a letter might of just worked to the owners to paint over the logo.  There are many other businesses up here that use "Hunter Mountain" in their name.

$ spent on lawyers, not mountain staffing and improvements.









						Hunter Mountain ski resorts suing over name and logo
					

The Hunter Mountain ski resort is suing a nearby lodge owner, contending in federal court...




					www.timesunion.com


----------



## PAabe (Jan 9, 2022)

The logo I can see, but I can't see how you can enforce trademark on "Hunter Mountain" when it literally is the geographic name of the mountain, which existed long before the "Hunter Mountain Ski Bowl" was there. There also is Hunter the town.  Hopefully the lodge has a good lawyer.

Also who tf cares obviously nobody is mixing up some little lodge for the biggest ski operation in the Catskills - what damage has been done?  I mean, yeah tell them to stop using your logo, but filing suit?


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Jan 9, 2022)

If you are going to file a suit over the logo, you throw in the claim over the name too. The use in juxtaposition adds to the confusion. And I guarantee they asked the lodge to cease and desist before filing suit.

And I would care as a consumer of hotels in the area, as it might be some rat trap that I would be fooled into thinking was a decent place by its attempt to present itself as being associated with the mountain and with Vail.

And if you don't enforce trademarks vigilantly your right to the name is weakened ("diluted" is the term of art in Trademark Law)


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 9, 2022)

They've diluted their name on their own by their consistently poor product in the east


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 9, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Vail has time to spend on this:  While I agree it they pretty much plagarized the logo and name. a letter might of just worked to the owners to paint over the logo.  There are many other businesses up here that use "Hunter Mountain" in their name.
> 
> $ spent on lawyers, not mountain staffing and improvements.
> 
> ...


I think I'd rather work shorthanded than have a legal department help me make snow.


----------



## Edd (Jan 9, 2022)

When you drive into the town of Stowe, doesn’t the town sign match the logo of the ski area? I’ve always wondered about that. Maybe I’m misremembering it.


----------



## faceplant (Jan 9, 2022)

now there lifts are falling apart









						Chair Detaches from Wildcat Lift
					

Photo credit: Mic Murphy A triple chair fell near the base of Wildcat Mountain’s Snowcat lift this afternoon, sending one person to the hospital. The lift involved is a 1974 Riblet servicing …




					liftblog.com


----------



## abc (Jan 9, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> if you don't enforce trademarks vigilantly your right to the name is weakened ("diluted" is the term of art in Trademark Law)


But since the previous owner of Hunter had allowed the lodge to use that name and logo for however long, wouldn't that trademark already diluted for years?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Vail has time to spend on this:  While I agree it they pretty much plagarized the logo and name. a letter might of just worked to the owners to paint over the logo.  There are many other businesses up here that use "Hunter Mountain" in their name.
> 
> $ spent on lawyers, not mountain staffing and improvements.
> 
> ...


They tried the same thing at Park City before the negative PR became too much…


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2022)

Edd said:


> When you drive into the town of Stowe, doesn’t the town sign match the logo of the ski area? I’ve always wondered about that. Maybe I’m misremembering it.


Yes it does.  That’s next.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Jan 9, 2022)

RichT said:


> Today at Hunter.............I have NEVER seen it this bad.View attachment 52634





Edd said:


> When you drive into the town of Stowe, doesn’t the town sign match the logo of the ski area? I’ve always wondered about that. Maybe I’m misremembering it.


Likely there is an agreement allowing that



abc said:


> But since the previous owner of Hunter had allowed the lodge to use that name and logo for however long, wouldn't that trademark already diluted for years?


Perhaps there was an agreement allowing that which Vail declined to renew because it does not meet the standards Vail sets for lodging that uses its brands


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 9, 2022)

Edd said:


> Recent quote from me.


Got a pick or two for wild card weekend next week?


----------



## abc (Jan 9, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Perhaps there was an agreement allowing that which Vail declined to renew because it does not meet the standards Vail sets for lodging that uses its brands


Perhaps?

That wouldn't be for a trademark infringement then. More like a contract (agreement) being  canceled?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 9, 2022)

Vail is just doing..what they know best...


----------



## catskillman (Jan 9, 2022)

Hunter Mountain Brewery - wonder if they went after them yet.  Thery habe beers also named some version of Hunter Mountain there


----------



## PAabe (Jan 9, 2022)

You can't go after "Hunter Mountain xxx." Hunter Mountain is the textbook name of the physical geologic mountain per USGS, predating the ski area, and cannot be trademarked.

The logo? Yes.  "Hunter Mountain _Resort_?" Perhaps


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 9, 2022)

Time for vail to put up or shut up.

Its gonna be COLD for the next 9 days here in NH.  Like zero on Tuesday night.  Not looking forward to chaperone duty at my sons middle school lessons at Pats that night. Only 1 day in  the next 9 is it predicted to be over 32 degrees at Sunapee-  Wednesday, high 34 low 15, per weather underground.

They now have temps that should let them make a ton of snow at least at Sunapee and Crotched, and I assume WC and Attitash and the VT resorts thru at least the next 9 days. 

If they have the commitment to do it

If they have the people to do it

If they have the equipment to do it. 

"the weather is warm" is not an excuse this week.

after this week we will know if they can/want to blow snow or not, or if they DGAF once they get your money.

Sadly, I'm preparing to be disappointed.


----------



## RichT (Jan 9, 2022)

PAabe said:


> You can't go after "Hunter Mountain xxx." Hunter Mountain is the textbook name of the physical geologic mountain per USGS, predating the ski area, and cannot be trademarked.
> 
> The logo? Yes.  "Hunter Mountain _Resort_?" Perhaps


The physical geologic mountain location is called Colonel's Chair, Hunter is to the east (Hunter One).


----------



## RichT (Jan 9, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Time for vail to put up or shut up.
> 
> Its gonna be COLD for the next 9 days here in NH.  Like zero on Tuesday night.  Not looking forward to chaperone duty at my sons middle school lessons at Pats that night. Only 1 day in  the next 9 is it predicted to be over 32 degrees at Sunapee-  Wednesday, high 34 low 15, per weather underground.
> 
> ...


Rumor down here is, they don't plan on opening the Westside this year............


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 9, 2022)

Vail..is not..a ski company..they dont care about conditions..weather...you..
Share price...share price...share price...thats it...


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 9, 2022)

RichT said:


> Rumor down here is, they don't plan on opening the Westside this year............


Seems likely enough. They were just blowing snow on Way Out yesterday, but apparently not enough yet to get skiers down to Rip's Return.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 9, 2022)

Super cold temps and an inexperienced/shorthanded crew is also a recipe for frozen pipe. Here's hoping they don't do that.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 9, 2022)

I stumbled upon this reddit thread about 2023 passes which I thought was a bit silly this early, but note that not a single person said epic other than those getting veteran discount.  Lots of discontent with Vail which is probably why this thread was started now


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/icecoast/comments/rzpftg


----------



## Edd (Jan 9, 2022)

Cody Townsend weighs in.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479925130037891072


----------



## catskillman (Jan 9, 2022)

waiting for a "part" for Z lift.....?????


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 9, 2022)

Wildcat fired up the guns on wild kitten this afternoon. It's Jan. 9 and they still haven't even connected the hoses on lynx. Even the folks who have houses at Okemo and ski 1 week a year in gapper mecca (Vail/Beaver Creek) aren't defending them anymore. Their product is unsustainably bad and their stock will crash. People who have defended them should be embarrassed.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 9, 2022)

Hope their stock plummets..


----------



## ss20 (Jan 9, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Wildcat fired up the guns on wild kitten this afternoon. It's Jan. 9 and they still haven't even connected the hoses on lynx. Even the folks who have houses at Okemo and ski 1 week a year in gapper mecca (Vail/Beaver Creek) aren't defending them anymore. Their product is unsustainably bad and their stock will crash. People who have defended them should be embarrassed.



I will forever be grateful for their substantial infrastructure improvements at their flagships.  Whistler has seen a ton of $$$.  Beaver Creek got their new area open.  Breck has arguably doubled in size since 2000.  The Canyons/Park City connection is huge.  Mount Snow is getting Sunbrook and Sundance replaced next year with detaches which have been needed/talked about over there for 20 years.  Okemo got the Green Ridge hsq...another item that was "in the works" since 2005 lol.  Mountain Triple at Stowe...finally getting replaced as well...another lift where the replacement was nothing more than talked about for 10+ years under old ownership.  

Their mentality reminds me of ASC.  Build build build and f--k everything else.  I've never defended Vail but I've always made the argument they are making a lot of positive, high-money/high-impact infrastructure improvements to resorts that will be there forever.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 9, 2022)

It doesn't appear that they're doing the same kind of massive snowmaking upgrades at smaller properties, though. You could make a big difference at some of these places operationally for a couple hundred grand - far less than buying a new lift. And that ignores the butcher bill of deferred maintenance on snowmaking systems.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hope their stock plummets..


Me too! I’be been shorting it off and on for awhile now! Great short!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I will forever be grateful for their substantial infrastructure improvements at their flagships.  Whistler has seen a ton of $$$.  Beaver Creek got their new area open.  Breck has arguably doubled in size since 2000.  The Canyons/Park City connection is huge.  Mount Snow is getting Sunbrook and Sundance replaced next year with detaches which have been needed/talked about over there for 20 years.  Okemo got the Green Ridge hsq...another item that was "in the works" since 2005 lol.  Mountain Triple at Stowe...finally getting replaced as well...another lift where the replacement was nothing more than talked about for 10+ years under old ownership.
> 
> Their mentality reminds me of ASC.  Build build build and f--k everything else.  I've never defended Vail but I've always made the argument they are making a lot of positive, high-money/high-impact infrastructure improvements to resorts that will be there forever.


Assuming that all those lift projects go forward and are not canceled due to a bad season.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 9, 2022)

https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf
		


How does one find out if the application to replace the summit triple at Attitash was approved?


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jan 9, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> How does one find out if the application to replace the summit triple at Attitash was approved?


There will be a tab labelled Decision. Not there yet.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 9, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> How does one find out if the application to replace the summit triple at Attitash was approved?







__





						Forest Service
					





					www.fs.usda.gov
				




Currently under review. Decision expected 4/22

You can also check the current Schedule of Proposed Actions (SOPA) report here from this page where the project will be listed: https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/forest-level.php?110922


----------



## kendo (Jan 9, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> How does one find out if the application to replace the summit triple at Attitash was approved?


Regardless of it's approved, Vail Eastern Regional VP & COO Tim Baker said in Nov (after the app filing date) ... there's a lot of complex terrain off this lift and we need to take some time to evaluate the best solution.  

Sounds like it's not happening for a while.

starting at ~56:30 here:









						Podcast #60: Vail Resorts Eastern Region VP & COO Tim Baker
					

Listen now (66 min) | "We view the Eastern region as a really critical element of the future success of our company."




					www.stormskiing.com
				





^It's a corporate jargon packed, teflon interview with lots of "Great question Stuart..."

Stuart should have asked:

Tim when's the last time you skied each Eastern resort and what do you see as the biggest challenge and most needed for each;

What's the snowmaking budget for each Eastern resort and how does that budget compare to the previous 2 fiscal years since you've acquired the Peak portfolio;  

The Epic pass Core season for Epic coverage is 12/7 - 4/17, what are you doing to ensure the product your customers purchased is delivered by 12/7 and how will you ensure it's in place through 4/17 (obviously not enough);

What percentage of Open resort terrain do you feel is adequate to the satisfy the expectations of your Epic pass holder...ie:  if a resort has 70% snowmaking coverage, how long with favorable temps, should your customers expect it to take for the snowmaking terrain to be open.   

Why can't your Easten resorts be transparent with your local customer base.  There is zero social media engagement and corporate generated mea culpa's do nothing to mitigate the current challenges at each resort. 

Thanks Tim...


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 9, 2022)

The corporate speak could also be referring to the quad/six pack/not approved all still pending.

Storm Skiing Podcast pretty much can't ask the hard hitting questions *that* aggressively - Vail corporate and probably a lot of the corporate types would never talk to him again.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2022)

Tom Clyde: This is the year we broke it
					

I didn’t ski much during the holidays. I was blacked out at Park City Mountain Resort and crowded out at Deer Valley. There was no possible reason to venture into town. While I wasn’t there…




					www.parkrecord.com


----------



## PAabe (Jan 10, 2022)

If/when they fail... I really hope they can find competent buyers for all of their areas.  It almost would be preferable for them to get their act together than dump that many ski areas on the market, but slim chance of that I guess


----------



## PAabe (Jan 10, 2022)

Previously I may have taken a bit of pleasure in sticking it to Vail, the big bad corporate bogeyman

Now it is just depressing.  So many affected employees, skiers, local businesses, ruined ski trips

I hope these areas can turn around with or without Vail

And if in the future a good weekend and night skiing product returns to old Ski Roundtop I would love to buy a pass


----------



## bigbob (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Tom Clyde: This is the year we broke it
> 
> 
> I didn’t ski much during the holidays. I was blacked out at Park City Mountain Resort and crowded out at Deer Valley. There was no possible reason to venture into town. While I wasn’t there…
> ...


Did you write this article?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2022)

It will be interesting to see in the coming season or 2, if the folks in Broomfield learn that while so many more people are buying the Epic Pass, especially in geographic locations where big Western Resorts AREN'T the primary place they will use their Epic passes, that running their small to medium sized properties, that now make up a significant portion of Vail Resorts total number of properties across numerous large population base drawing areas where they're probably selling way more Epic passes than ever, in a way that allows Epic passholders who frequent those smaller areas say 5 to 15+ weekends a season vs just the 1 or 2 weekends they may go West, to be happy with their purchase of an Epic Pass, is going to be key for them at retaining many of the new/newer Epic passholders, especially if unlike myself, they're not tied to one specific Epic resort due to property ownership at that resort.

If they don't my hunch is that the price point of the pass will have to go up (arguably I would expect it to go back to where it was 2 seasons ago before the 20% off reduction hit since basically even for last season, at minimum an Epic passholder from the 19-20 Covid shut down in March season still got a minimum of 20% off of their 20-21 season Epic pass) to offset the likely loss of Epic passholders from this year who primarily use what I will refer to as their "second tier" properties. 

Hopefully they will get that the "answer" to their crowding issue is already there if they work through all of the variables needed and just operate their "second tier" resorts in a way like their previous owners did, especially if 1.5 to 2 million Epic passes sold a year will be the new "normal" baseline number for them, and seemingly its 1.5 to 2 million passholders who want to get on the slopes more often than the average skier/rider does.

Going to take a change in thought off the seemingly pure data driven approach being used that for many the "value" in their Epic Pass comes not just from the pricing or the list of "top tier" resorts available, but moreso  from how their local mountains where they spend the majority of their season skiing/riding both during the day and in some cases at night, operate from before Christmas until mid March at minimum.

I wonder if the folks in Broomfield are capable of that, and get that say a mountain like Crotched, or their mid-Atlantic and mid- West properties they should be looking at mountains such as Wachusett for day to day operational cues rather than Vail/Whistler/Breck? 

In the mean time, I am guessing there will be a plethora of long line social media posts from various Epic Resorts (and probably a bunch of non Epic Resorts) next weekend. Hopefully the MLK Weekend posts will just be of long lines and not any mechanical lift issues and/or snowmaking issues from any resort in the Country!


----------



## FBGM (Jan 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I will forever be grateful for their substantial infrastructure improvements at their flagships.  Whistler has seen a ton of $$$.  Beaver Creek got their new area open.  Breck has arguably doubled in size since 2000.  The Canyons/Park City connection is huge.  Mount Snow is getting Sunbrook and Sundance replaced next year with detaches which have been needed/talked about over there for 20 years.  Okemo got the Green Ridge hsq...another item that was "in the works" since 2005 lol.  Mountain Triple at Stowe...finally getting replaced as well...another lift where the replacement was nothing more than talked about for 10+ years under old ownership.
> 
> Their mentality reminds me of ASC.  Build build build and f--k everything else.  I've never defended Vail but I've always made the argument they are making a lot of positive, high-money/high-impact infrastructure improvements to resorts that will be there forever.


I can tell you first hand that all the PC/Canyons “upgrades” are useless. Gondola to nowhere. Connecting the resorts does nothing but say they are huge on paper. No extra skiing. Garbage area/terrain. But looks good to Texans


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Did you write this article?


No


----------



## ss20 (Jan 10, 2022)

FBGM said:


> I can tell you first hand that all the PC/Canyons “upgrades” are useless. Gondola to nowhere. Connecting the resorts does nothing but say they are huge on paper. No extra skiing. Garbage area/terrain. But looks good to Texans



Same as with the Squaw/Palisades-Alpine connection and the Whistler/Blackcomb Gondola... they may be marketing gimmicks but they work!


----------



## ss20 (Jan 10, 2022)

In other news...MTN stock down another 3% today to $298 as of now... falling below the $300 mark for the first time since Sept 15.  52wk high- 376, low- 261


----------



## kendo (Jan 10, 2022)

Wall Street taking notice of Vail Resorts’ issues
					

Since early November, Vail Resorts' stock (MTN) has not been a great performer in the larger travel and leisure universe.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## snoseek (Jan 10, 2022)

So glad to see the media taking note on all this.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 10, 2022)

Now that their stock price is being negatively effected maybe we’ll see some changes.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

kendo said:


> Wall Street taking notice of Vail Resorts’ issues
> 
> 
> Since early November, Vail Resorts' stock (MTN) has not been a great performer in the larger travel and leisure universe.
> ...





> “*We believe MTN is experiencing severe labor issues that are negatively impacting the customer experience as evidenced by news stories in the media, our private industry contacts, and countless social media postings,”* wrote C. Patrick Scholes, Alexander Barenklau and Gregory J. Miller with Truist. “Labor issues are impacting lift openings/staffing, snow grooming, and F&B and retail operations, all compounded by Epic pass sales up 76% from the 2019/2020 ski season.



Maybe they have been following this Epic thread!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

Another interesting quote:



> As a result of the hiring challenges, post-COVID-19 cost savings could actually bump earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization slightly; however, that is “probably not a good nor sustainable thing,” as pointed out by Truist.


And:



> Among the issues impacting Vail Resorts that were cited in Truists’ report:
> 
> 
> Epic pass sales are up 76% vs. the 2019/2020 ski season, meaning the slopes would likely be more crowded to start with regardless of any labor issues.
> ...


----------



## machski (Jan 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Same as with the Squaw/Palisades-Alpine connection and the Whistler/Blackcomb Gondola... they may be marketing gimmicks but they work!


You will be able to eit at one of the turn stations on Pallisades Connect Gondi (I think on Olympic side), whether it adds much new terrain is doubtful.  I think that Gondi is more important than PC's however, it is quite a long drive out Olympic and over to Alpine by car/bus and the vast majority of beds now and in future development are planned on the Olympic side.

As to the major infrastructure improvements across Vail, yes they have added a bunch of value but they have not figured out the East yet.  Toss some new lifts, high elevation terrain pods out west and you see instant value.  Out East, not so much given our weather.  They have to spend the $$ to get the terrain open and in good shape.  So far, they are showing they lag big time in product delivery compared to ALL of their peers, large and small.  Until they can deliver the product we care about, fancy lift upgrades are worthless out East.


thetrailboss said:


> Another interesting quote:
> 
> 
> And:


"The big question cited in the report is what will be the financial impact from customer dissatisfaction with the ski experienc"

This will be the most telling factor.  We won't buy these passes again (really bought to hit Vail's big resorts in CO in Feb/Mar and supplement our New England out east from home.  But with Crotched down to a 5 day operation, that has been impacted very negatively).


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2022)

Mount Sunapee Had an Hours Long Traffic Jam on Saturday
					

I was shredding over at Suicide Six Ski Area on Saturday and dealt with some lift lines, but all under five minutes. I decide to do an obligatory doom scroll on social media and saw some jarring cr…




					unofficialnetworks.com
				




Why isn't Vail requiring reservations?  Seems like the most immediate and impactful change they could make in current season.  Just fire up the website from last year


----------



## Mainer (Jan 10, 2022)

Atticat had only one day last year that sold out. Sunday of mlk. Reservations don’t work if you still allow a million people.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Mount Sunapee Had an Hours Long Traffic Jam on Saturday
> 
> 
> I was shredding over at Suicide Six Ski Area on Saturday and dealt with some lift lines, but all under five minutes. I decide to do an obligatory doom scroll on social media and saw some jarring cr…
> ...


Good question. 

Anecdotally, what I heard last year from locals here was that reservations at PCMR were a complete joke as crowding still resulted. 

Not to go on a tangent, but regarding crowds, this past weekend was the only weekend in a four-week span between December 24th and MLK day that the IKON base was accepted at Utah resorts.  Solitude Parking filled by 9:49am on Saturday morning.  Brighton shortly thereafter.  I went up Saturday afternoon and met four digital signs warning me of congestion.  I've never seen so many cars.  I left at 5:30pm to go home and congestion was still an issue 90 minutes after the lifts closed at Solitude.  Same deal in LCC.  Yesterday Snowbird's parking lots were full at 9:05am.  I know that some of you are IKONers and love it, but be thankful you do not have to deal with this kind of crowding nonsense.  It's time to go back to quality over quantity.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Mount Sunapee Had an Hours Long Traffic Jam on Saturday
> 
> 
> I was shredding over at Suicide Six Ski Area on Saturday and dealt with some lift lines, but all under five minutes. I decide to do an obligatory doom scroll on social media and saw some jarring cr…
> ...


One of the marketing points of the pass this year was no reservations IIRC


----------



## kendo (Jan 10, 2022)

Wildcat and other NH resort folks take note. . . 

Lawyers comment on possible recourse Epic pass holders may have (even with Vails restrictive T&C's) regarding the Stevens Pass situation. 









						With slopes limited, do Stevens Pass skiers have recourse? | HeraldNet.com
					

Lift ticket fine print bars a class action lawsuit, saying passes are non-refundable. But those might not be the last words.




					www.heraldnet.com


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Mount Sunapee Had an Hours Long Traffic Jam on Saturday
> 
> 
> I was shredding over at Suicide Six Ski Area on Saturday and dealt with some lift lines, but all under five minutes. I decide to do an obligatory doom scroll on social media and saw some jarring cr…
> ...



A little bit of anecdata from Hunter this past Saturday which I think illustrates how little failures of management - specifically, allocating the resources needed to hire enough people to make things run smoothly - lead to spectacles like hours-long-traffic jams on mountain access roads and pissed-off skiers.

There's a smallish parking lot next to the learning center (ski school and rentals) which used to be a paid lot a few years ago. All right, that's pretty bougie and obnoxious by Catskill standards. But it was what it was and someone was paid to stand at the little shack out there, collect ten bucks or whatever it was, and shut it down if it ever filled up (who knows if it ever really did.) Last season that lot was changed to an employee lot. A little sign out there denoted that. I'm sure one or two skiers ignored it and parked there, but at least the gesture of a sign (I don't remember seeing an employee actually out there) seemed to keep it controlled. The mountain workers who did park there seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping it orderly on their own, which meant a fair number of cars could get in there.

This year? It is the m-fing Wild West.
By that I mean, it's just another lot. No sign, no plan and of course no worker. An inadequately-small-for-its-premium location, oddly-laid out, one-entrance-and-egress lot - come one, come all. Is anyone out there keeping some order, registering that 100 cars might be able to fit in a decently-regulated 100 car lot, but 150 cars will not?
Is there f***.
You have 8 foot gaps between suburban tanks. You have cars completely boxed in by others. You have cars parked where they should not be parked, and aisles where there should be aisles. It's asshole parking central, and maddening if you're not the one of the first in or last out. So good luck to ya.

I was already in this little lot around 9:30 on Saturday morning, but decided to pop out for breakfast at the bagel shop across the road (because the Hunter cafeteria's breakfast offering was...4 wrapped bacon egg and cheese muffins sadly waiting under a heat lamp. Total.) and then drive to the North side. Luckily I could get out. Leaving, I could see that the furthest-out overflow lots were already heaving with cars, and the motionless line on 23A went up far as the eye could see.
North lot (shhh) was blissfully easy. You just lose a half hour of ski time by parking there.

Now, thank god I did not have to experience the main lots that day, but if Vail can't or won't pay what it has to get enough food and bev staff, snowmakers, etc., then what are the chances they're paying enough to draw a few locals to stand in a cold lot waving Jerrys from Jersey into place to maximize the space there? I'm guessing between slim and none. And so there's chaos, delays and lines - I'm betting it's my little lot story writ large - and you're (we're) all on our own.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Good question.
> 
> Anecdotally, what I heard last year from locals here was that reservations at PCMR were a complete joke as crowding still resulted.
> 
> Not to go on a tangent, but regarding crowds, this past weekend was the only weekend in a four-week span between December 24th and MLK day that the IKON base was accepted at Utah resorts.  Solitude Parking filled by 9:49am on Saturday morning.  Brighton shortly thereafter.  I went up Saturday afternoon and met four digital signs warning me of congestion.  I've never seen so many cars.  I left at 5:30pm to go home and congestion was still an issue 90 minutes after the lifts closed at Solitude.  Same deal in LCC.  Yesterday Snowbird's parking lots were full at 9:05am.  I know that some of you are IKONers and love it, but be thankful you do not have to deal with this kind of crowding nonsense.  It's time to go back to quality over quantity.



This past Saturday?  Certainly not the same deal in LCC.  Alta was sold out of parking but Albion was never more than 3/4 full.  I went up and skied onto supreme in the singles line at 12:30.  Ski-on.  I left to go home at 4:15 and it took an extra 20 minutes to get home.  Not fun but not apocalyptic like BCC which has been bonkers every day from what I hear/see...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> This past Saturday?  Certainly not the same deal in LCC.  Alta was sold out of parking but Albion was never more than 3/4 full.  I went up and skied onto supreme in the singles line at 12:30.  Ski-on.  I left to go home at 4:15 and it took an extra 20 minutes to get home.  Not fun but not apocalyptic like BCC which has been bonkers every day from what I hear/see...


Remember that Alta's parking requires an IKON passholder to pay.  Hence why they flooded Snowbird.  

I agree that Alta was not bad this weekend.  Now that the initial drama is over, and I have been able to get parking reservations when needed as a passholder, skiing on weekends at Alta has been nice.  Busy, but not like overrun like before.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 10, 2022)

They seemed pretty quick to just straight up close wildcat today with wind. I bet they close tomorrow and Wednesday as well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> They seemed pretty quick to just straight up close wildcat today with wind. I bet they close tomorrow and Wednesday as well.


Must be that wind is terrible.  I think it is likely a money-hold.  Vail's stock is down $14.38 just today.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Must be that wind is terrible.  I think it is likely a money-hold.  Vail's stock is down $14.38 just today.


Good that will bring change.

Still don't see any sort of snowmaking on lynx which blows my mind. I mean it would be bad ass as a top to bottom natural trail if it ever fills in but noone knows if that will happen. I swear wildcat will be alot of fun this year if mother nature can cooperate. I still haven't been there yet


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> They seemed pretty quick to just straight up close wildcat today with wind. I bet they close tomorrow and Wednesday as well.


Even Black is closed the next few days... I know I would NOT want to be at Wildcat tomorrow!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Good that will bring change.
> 
> Still don't see any sort of snowmaking on lynx which blows my mind. I mean it would be bad ass as a top to bottom natural trail if it ever fills in but noone knows if that will happen. I swear wildcat will be alot of fun this year if mother nature can cooperate. I still haven't been there yet



Nothing listed for snowmaking on Atticat website or any of the webcams


----------



## snoseek (Jan 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Nothing listed for snowmaking on Atticat website or any of the webcams


They don't really list much about snowmaking these days


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> They don't really list much about snowmaking these days


More about what bar is open, than where they made snow...


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2022)

With the temps and wind tomorrow the margin for error if something goes wrong, even for an experienced crew, is minimal, and less if you have an inexperienced ladened crew. Last thing any mountain wants to happen is for something to go wrong in extreme cold and end up freezing up a feeder line.

There certainly are many operational decisions you can fault Vail for this season, however sometimes, and this may be one of those times, just because you don't agree with their decision, doesn't mean it's the wrong decision


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 10, 2022)

Wildcat never closes for COLD.

WIND YES, but in my 15+ years there we never shut down for COLD.   
I have pics of -30F on XMas Day maybe 10-12 years ago


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Wildcat never closes for COLD.
> 
> WIND YES, but in my 15+ years there we never shut down for COLD.
> I have pics of -30F on XMas Day maybe 10-12 years ago


Very true. I’ve been there on some pretty terrible days. That said, I was younger then


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 10, 2022)

Three years ago skiing Wildcat with my kids (then 6 and 10) we arrived to the mountain and it was 0. By the time I had them booted up it was probably negative degrees and the staff was warning everyone who had exposed skin to be extra careful. Wind was really high as well. We were one of the last ones to the top of the quad before they shut it down for wind, made it down Catapult to where it meets Cat Track, found a protected spot around the corner in the woods and hunkered down for 15 minutes. Then made our way down to the top of Bobcat lift and hunkered down again.

My pack has these therapy "instant heat packs" and friends ask why I carry them and the answer is "because Wildcat". Place can be brutal, especially for kids. It's a source of pride for my kids now that they survived that .


----------



## Dickc (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> They seemed pretty quick to just straight up close wildcat today with wind. I bet they close tomorrow and Wednesday as well.







__





						Mount Washington Observatory | Current Summit Conditions | Mount Washington Observatory
					






					www.mountwashington.org
				




This also shows the wind for the the day in one of the graphs.  It WAS windy as all get out on the top of big George!


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 10, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Three years ago skiing Wildcat with my kids (then 6 and 10) we arrived to the mountain and it was 0. By the time I had them booted up it was probably negative degrees and the staff was warning everyone who had exposed skin to be extra careful. Wind was really high as well. We were one of the last ones to the top of the quad before they shut it down for wind, made it down Catapult to where it meets Cat Track, found a protected spot around the corner in the woods and hunkered down for 15 minutes. Then made our way down to the top of Bobcat lift and hunkered down again.
> 
> My pack has these therapy "instant heat packs" and friends ask why I carry them and the answer is "because Wildcat". Place can be brutal, especially for kids. It's a source of pride for my kids now that they survived that .


Whiteface, Loaf,  Smuggs....   
Nothing compares to The Cat when the wind gets honkin'.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 10, 2022)

Plumett baby...plumett.....


----------



## drjeff (Jan 10, 2022)

Vail Resorts announced today the equivalent of a $2 an hour raise for all non salaried employees for all hours worked from January 1st through April 15th or whenever that employees job ends for the season. Will be paid out as a lump sum in May


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2022)

drjeff said:


> With the temps and wind tomorrow the margin for error if something goes wrong, even for an experienced crew, is minimal, and less if you have an inexperienced ladened crew. Last thing any mountain wants to happen is for something to go wrong in extreme cold and end up freezing up a feeder line.
> 
> There certainly are many operational decisions you can fault Vail for this season, however sometimes, and this may be one of those times, just because you don't agree with their decision, doesn't mean it's the wrong decision



True, true

I guess ALL of the competition that were expanding  and / or resurfacing snowmaking terrain today are a bunch of damned fools. 

Carry on folks

Be nice to Vail please


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 10, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Vail Resorts announced today the equivalent of a $2 an hour raise for all non salaried employees for all hours worked from January 1st through April 15th or whenever that employees job ends for the season. Will be paid out as a lump sum in May


So that means they only get the raise if they finish out the season......
Kind of a lame way to lock people in, wouldn't you think..??


----------



## snoseek (Jan 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So that means they only get the raise if they finish out the season......
> Kind of a lame way to lock people in, wouldn't you think..??


Honestly ive worked for resorts that did this sort of thing and it was pretty cool as nobody was any good at saving and this got them through the shoulder. It also motivated them to finish it out, which always seems to be an issue


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So that means they only get the raise if they finish out the season......
> Kind of a lame way to lock people in, wouldn't you think..??




What's wrong with?

McDonald's: We are going to pay you $15 an hour.  Please just show up to work

Vs

Burger King: We are going to pay you $13 an hour.  If you show us that you will show up for work for 3 months we will backfill your pay with a $2 an hour bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!

Hmmmmm........

Bold strategy. Let's see if there's an appreciable uptick in employment 30% of the way into a seasonal job in locations with no affordable housing and the people there likely have more secure employment already.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So that means they only get the raise if they finish out the season......
> Kind of a lame way to lock people in, wouldn't you think..??



No.  It is absolutely necessary in this industry lol.  Burn/drop rate is a standard discussion.  When I was making decisions (thank God those days are over lol) we figured 2-3 would drop over the course of the season out of 60 people.  I distinctly remember early on in my instructing career we got a new boss and after a week one guy was cleaning out his locker as I was coming into work.  Conversation was literally "what are you up to?" "I quit with xxxxxx in charge now" "Ok have a nice one" "thanks you too!".  

As @snoseek says it's a nice bonus to get through the spring til people get their summer gigs going.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Honestly ive worked for resorts that did this sort of thing and it was pretty cool as nobody was any good at saving and this got them through the shoulder. It also motivated them to finish it out, which always seems to be an issue



Right. Me too.  It was awesome for me at more financially irresponsible times of my life working resorts and partying like crazy. 

But it was a start of the season offer to attract better people from the start.  Not an end of the season add on to prevent the plane from crashing into the mountain


----------



## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So that means they only get the raise if they finish out the season......
> Kind of a lame way to lock people in, wouldn't you think..??


Seems a lot like annual bonuses in the corporate world. At least this pays out right at the end of the season instead of having to wait for some arbitrary period.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> ...to prevent the plane from crashing into the mountain


Careful there. Given all the mishaps at ski areas in the past few weeks I think "plane crashing into mountain" would be next on the list


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

PCMR ski patrol union members vote to authorize a work stoppage.









						Park City ski patrol union overwhelmingly votes to authorize a strike if negotiations fail with Vail Resorts
					

After a year and a half of stalled contract negotiations between Vail Resorts and the Park City ski patrol union, the Utah ski patrollers have authorized a strike in a near-unanimous vote.




					www.sltrib.com
				






> The two parties have been in negotiations since August 2020. Ski patrollers currently start at $13.25 per hour, making them the lowest-paid Vail Resorts employees in all of Park City.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Careful there. Given all the mishaps at ski areas in the past few weeks I think "plane crashing into mountain" would be next on the list


Been there.  Done that.

That happened in Italy back in the late 1990’s.  U.S. military accident.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Vail Resorts announced today the equivalent of a $2 an hour raise for all non salaried employees for all hours worked from January 1st through April 15th or whenever that employees job ends for the season. Will be paid out as a lump sum in May


Too little.  Too late.  Damage done.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> PCMR ski patrol union members vote to authorize a work stoppage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It boggles my mind that ski patrollers are the lowest paid Vail workers at Park City. That's insane.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Been there.  Done that.
> 
> That happened in Italy back in the late 1990’s.  U.S. military accident.


Also to Magic (twice if you count a mid air collision)


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> Also to Magic (twice if you count a mid air collision)


Yikes.  Really?  Details?


----------



## cdskier (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yikes.  Really?  Details?





			Magic Mountain Ski Area History - Vermont - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com
		


Actually 3 times if you include the helicopter crash during the lift install in 62



> Magic Mountain finally started to live up to its potential when the $300,000 Pohlig double chairlift was installed for 1962-63, opening the Upper Mountain.  In addition to the new lift and trails, the main lodge was expanded and a new parking lot constructed.
> 
> The lift installation was reportedly the first to use a helicopter for the pouring of concrete.  With Sikorksy Aircraft officials on site to record the event on September 13, the helicopter reportedly suffered a mechanical issue and came crashing down onto the lift line.  Though the helicopter was destroyed by fire, pilot Frank Minjoy survived.   Construction resumed days later using another helicopter.





> On the evening of February 22, 1973, a Cessna 310 crashed into Magic Mountain, killing both on board.  Peter Thorner was later awarded a Gold and Green Merit Star by the National Ski Patrol for assisting in the search and rescue mission.  Two years later, on the night of February 3, 1975, two Air Force F-111 bombers collided near the mountain.  The four crew members ejected, landing unharmed on the upper slopes of Magic Mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Magic Mountain Ski Area History - Vermont - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com
> 
> 
> 
> Actually 3 times if you include the helicopter crash during the lift install in 62


Wow that is bad luck.  And looks like four incidents involving five aircraft!



> On *September 13, 1962*, Magic was hitting its stride and expanding with the addition of what today is referred to as the Black Chair.  While pouring concrete for the lift’s foundation, pilot Frank Minjoy lost control of his Sikorsky S-58 Helicopter and crashed into the side of the mountain.  Amazingly, Mr. Minjoy survived the accident.
> 
> Eleven years later, on *February 22, 1973*, Dan Delp was piloting his Cessna 310 when he got disorientated in the fog and crashed into Magic.  The first people on the scene were Magic Mountain patrollers. Unfortunately, the pilot and his passenger were both killed.
> 
> ...











						Airplanes Crash Into Ski Resorts More Than You Might Think
					

BY, ANDY JAMESON We all know mountains are dangerous.  Avalanches, cliffs, and cold weather are just a few of the obstacles that people encounter when traveling in the mountains.  Less widely appre…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## urungus (Jan 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yikes.  Really?  Details?


Apparently there have been FOUR crashes at Magic, involving 5 aircraft … https://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/01/17/airplanes-crash-ski-resorts/


----------



## MadPadraic (Jan 10, 2022)

One of the French resorts (Courchevel I think) has a famously difficult approach to its mid-mountain airport.


----------



## abc (Jan 10, 2022)

MadPadraic said:


> One of the French resorts (Courchevel I think) has a famously difficult approach to its mid-mountain airport.


If you can afford to fly into the middle of the resort, you can afford a decent pilot?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 11, 2022)

Strike!
Send them one hell of a message..as in good luck running the place without us..
Talk about essential workers!


----------



## JoeB-Z (Jan 11, 2022)

I've just turned around after arriving at Sunapee and Okemo each of the last two Fridays. I ski for enjoyment, not to ride buses and wait in crazy lift lines for skied off slopes. I'll try Tu and W I guess.


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 11, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> I've just turned around after arriving at Sunapee and Okemo each of the last two Fridays. I ski for enjoyment, not to ride buses and wait in crazy lift lines for skied off slopes. I'll try Tu and W I guess.


I don't know about Tuesdays, Crotched is closed and all the regulars are going to one of the 2 others. Wednesday is probably tolerable. Vail sucks.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Magic Mountain Ski Area History - Vermont - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com
> 
> 
> 
> Actually 3 times if you include the helicopter crash during the lift install in 62


An orthodontist friend of the family from New Bedford crashed his plane on Mount Snow.  Dentists at Mount Snow are a real menace.  I also remember some mishaps with his Pearson 36 sloop.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

I can't believe I am doing this, but bump.      Something must be wrong.

PCMR Ski Patrol and Vail did not reach a deal.  They will go back to the table again today.  









						Vail Resorts and Park City ski patrollers’ union remain deadlocked after 50th bargaining session
					

The 50th bargaining session between the Park City ski patrol union and Vail Resorts on Monday night resulted in the same conclusion as the previous 49 talks: a stalemate.




					www.sltrib.com
				




A very interesting note in the article: the $2 per hour bonus only came AFTER PCMR Ski Patrol voted to strike.  Some see the $2 bonus as a response to the $2 increase demand by the PCMR Ski Patrol.  Specifically, the message being, "fuck you".  And, "you have no leverage over wages."


----------



## zyk (Jan 12, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I can't believe I am doing this, but bump.      Something must be wrong.
> 
> PCMR Ski Patrol and Vail did not reach a deal.  They will go back to the table again today.
> 
> ...


They should demand much much much more.  Ski patrol is the 911 of every .resort.  I got dragged off the hill and given a bag of ice...  I want well paid well trained patrol.  There's certain places not to cut corners.


----------



## tumbler (Jan 12, 2022)

As I said many pages ago, Vail is destroying skiing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 12, 2022)

Ruining skiing one mountain at a time...  

The corporate 1 size fits all doesn't work in anything honestly, and it certainly doesn't work in ski area management. 

Its not a coincidence that Rob Katz has stepped down as CEO...  He's made his money and will watch this dumpster fire while sitting on his stack of money.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 12, 2022)

The word is out that Certified NSP Patrollers may/will be needed to fill in at PC
Just sent in my info.  It was all expenses paid when ASC sent us out there 20 years ago for the Olympics.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 12, 2022)

Closed terrain, staff shortages plague Stevens Pass at start of Washington’s 2021-22 ski season
					

The ski season is off to a rough start at Stevens Pass. Customer complaints have soared as over half of the mountain remains closed due to inadequate staffing, which has led to unplowed parking lots, long lift lines and bare-bones...




					www.seattletimes.com


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## skimagic (Jan 12, 2022)

The Stevens Pass GM is


eatskisleep said:


> Closed terrain, staff shortages plague Stevens Pass at start of Washington’s 2021-22 ski season
> 
> 
> The ski season is off to a rough start at Stevens Pass. Customer complaints have soared as over half of the mountain remains closed due to inadequate staffing, which has led to unplowed parking lots, long lift lines and bare-bones...
> ...


jeez. another GM bites the dust.  is crotched or wildcat next?


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## 2Planker (Jan 12, 2022)

skimagic said:


> The Stevens Pass GM is
> 
> jeez. another GM bites the dust.  is crotched or wildcat next?


Wildcat doesn't have a GM.  We get a Food & Beverage Manager,


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## eatskisleep (Jan 12, 2022)

They blowing any snow this week at The Cat?


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## pinion247 (Jan 12, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> They blowing any snow this week at The Cat?



Without the Snowcat I wonder if they'll try to make enough snow to open Wild Kitten to give beginners a fighting chance on the mountain. Quad + Bobcat is better than Quad + Tomcat IMO. Especially if this storm materializes.


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## gittist (Jan 12, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Wildcat doesn't have a GM.  We get a Food & Beverage Manager,


No skiing but maybe good food and drink?


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2022)

2Planker said:


> The word is out that Certified NSP Patrollers may/will be needed to fill in at PC
> Just sent in my info.  It was all expenses paid when ASC sent us out there 20 years ago for the Olympics.


So Vail won't give these employees a raise, but instead will pay to cover travel expenses, lodging, etc for non-Park City patrollers to fill in/cover for them?


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## pinion247 (Jan 12, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So Vail won't give these employees a raise, but instead will pay to cover travel expenses, lodging, etc for non-Park City patrollers to fill in/cover for them?











						Union busting - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## 2Planker (Jan 12, 2022)

cdskier said:


> So Vail won't give these employees a raise, but instead will pay to cover travel expenses, lodging, etc for non-Park City patrollers to fill in/cover for them?



 We'll see...
         FOR RENT - Fully Certified OEC Senior Level NSP Patroller w/ 30+ years experience


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## eatskisleep (Jan 12, 2022)

gittist said:


> No skiing but maybe good food and drink?


Nah, beer selection is weak too at The Cat


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## Smellytele (Jan 12, 2022)

2Planker said:


> The word is out that Certified NSP Patrollers may/will be needed to fill in at PC
> Just sent in my info.  It was all expenses paid when ASC sent us out there 20 years ago for the Olympics.


Scab!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 12, 2022)

no offense intended on this question, i just don't know the answer. would a typical experienced eastern patroller even have the skill set to patrol a big western mountain with avalanche control as part of the job?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Its not a coincidence that Rob Katz has stepped down as CEO...  He's made his money and will watch this dumpster fire while sitting on his stack of money.


Yep.  I have not seen anymore Epic Podcasts lately.


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## abc (Jan 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no offense intended on this question, i just don't know the answer. would a typical experienced eastern patroller even have the skill set to patrol a big western mountain with avalanche control as part of the job?


Also the question of how many patrollers from the Midwest/east coast be willing to help Vail bust the PC patroller union. All expense paid to ski the big mountain is a pretty big motivator for those normally patrolling in ant hills. Sill, will it be worth crossing the picket line?


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## pinion247 (Jan 12, 2022)

abc said:


> Also the question of how many patrollers from the Midwest/east coast be willing to help Vail bust the PC patroller union. All expense paid to ski the big mountain is a pretty big motivator for those normally patrolling in ant hills. Sill, will it be worth crossing the picket line?



As a fan of the Wasatch range, dropping into McConkey's (or Daly Chutes on the DV side) on a powder day might be worth it for me..........


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## FBGM (Jan 12, 2022)

Haven’t read all the updates here. But good for Tom at Stevens for getting out. I don’t think he got fired. I think he left. I know Tom and his prior position worked with him. He doesn’t need the shit, I’m sure he walked away


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## 2Planker (Jan 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> no offense intended on this question, i just don't know the answer. would a typical experienced eastern patroller even have the skill set to patrol a big western mountain with avalanche control as part of the job?


Good question.

Truth is many are AIARE certified, and have taken many courses right here on Mt Wash.
https://www.ime-usa.com/imcs/portfolio-item/aiare-avalanche-courses/
https://www.newhampshireclimbing.com/shop/mount-washington-avalanche-awareness/

If they're that short handed, they'll have to look at the skill set that shows up, and make the call.
I think east coast "scabs" are a long shot.  But, still curious


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Good question.
> 
> Truth is many are AIARE certified, and have taken many courses right here on Mt Wash.
> https://www.ime-usa.com/imcs/portfolio-item/aiare-avalanche-courses/
> ...


Well….one also needs to know the local terrain and avalanche paths.  That’s a steep learning curve for a place the size of PCMR.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 12, 2022)

Not for throwing and launching bombs..no need for that here so i doubt anyone here is certified..


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## Mainer (Jan 12, 2022)

Its a slimy move if you’re really considering it. You hate vail enough you won’t work at wildcat but will help stick it to PC patrol. I hope you’re kidding.


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## FBGM (Jan 12, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> As a fan of the Wasatch range, dropping into McConkey's (or Daly Chutes on the DV side) on a powder day might be worth it for me..........


This shows you’ve never skied Alta or Snowbird


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## 2Planker (Jan 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Not for throwing and launching bombs..no need for that here so i doubt anyone here is certified..


Actually YES, 3 of us took the AIARE courses at Tahoe in 2015 and 2018.

For Mainer - Mostly curious,  The info came from NSP. They're trying to help out


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## Mainer (Jan 12, 2022)

On paper sounds like fun. Actually being there and crossing the picket line, seems rough. 
  In other news former attitash gm landed on his feet and will be running mt rose in Tahoe https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.telegram.com/amp/9186074002


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

Mainer said:


> On paper sounds like fun. Actually being there and crossing the picket line, seems rough.
> In other news former attitash gm landed on his feet and will be running mt rose in Tahoe https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.telegram.com/amp/9186074002


That's a big change of scenery.


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## pinion247 (Jan 12, 2022)

FBGM said:


> This shows you’ve never skied Alta or Snowbird



Skied both. And if Vail is gonna set you up at PCMR I doubt you'll be traversing over to Alta/Snowbird routinely. What I really like about the two areas I mentioned is that you're only committed for ~1k vertical. Then meet up with the fam and easy cruising until the next time up the lift. That works really well for us.

FWIW the 9-year-old will have his first shot at Alta in March (knock on wood). Not skilled enough yet to do anything TOO fun. But at least will experience it.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 12, 2022)

But...you could be certified..but when wss the last time you set bombs off..not something i would want to do once in a while..
Or cross a picket line


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

Amy Roberts: An utter vailure
					

In my “big girl job,” I work for a communications agency based in New York. We pay New York salaries, provide exceptional benefits, have a permanent work from home policy, and frankly, we’re a damn…




					www.parkrecord.com
				





And again the $2 per hour bonus applies to all who have a contract with Vail.  Or everyone but these patrollers.  That’s a big eff-you.


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## FBGM (Jan 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> But...you could be certified..but when wss the last time you set bombs off..not something i would want to do once in a while..
> Or cross a picket line


Certified? Jeeze, I remember putting caps on between my legs in a cat and pulling and throwing out the window while driving down a ridge.


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## Geoff (Jan 12, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Certified? Jeeze, I remember putting caps on between my legs in a cat and pulling and throwing out the window while driving down a ridge.


So that’s your strike busting experience.  How about ski patrol?


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## drjeff (Jan 12, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Amy Roberts: An utter vailure
> 
> 
> In my “big girl job,” I work for a communications agency based in New York. We pay New York salaries, provide exceptional benefits, have a permanent work from home policy, and frankly, we’re a damn…
> ...


Why do so many people pick out head shots where they have "crazy eyes"?


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## abc (Jan 12, 2022)

"For employees who work a 40-hour a week and stay through April 15, that’s an extra $1,200. Except it’s really not since *bonuses are generally taxed around the 30% mark.* " 

Can someone translate that?


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## meff (Jan 12, 2022)

abc said:


> "For employees who work a 40-hour a week and stay through April 15, that’s an extra $1,200. Except it’s really not since *bonuses are generally taxed around the 30% mark.* "
> 
> Can someone translate that?


Lump sum bonuses are withheld at a higher rate.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Why do so many people pick out head shots where they have "crazy eyes"?


Right? She’s in “communications” so maybe she can tell us.


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## abc (Jan 12, 2022)

meff said:


> Lump sum bonuses are *withheld* at a higher rate.


That's not the same as "taxed at 30%"! You get all that extra withheld money back as a tax refund.

She phrased it like Vail was doing something underhanded by giving the money out as bonus. That's poor journalism. Vail maybe a lot of bad things. But giving out bonus isn't one of them.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2022)

So given Vail’s issues, assuming it continues to be rough, what do you see them doing?  Dropping Epic prices?  Selling some resorts (if so, which ones?)


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## IceEidolon (Jan 13, 2022)

Unprofitable ones. Possibly ones that are seeing reduced hours. Attitash has an excellent excuse if they don't get permitted to replace the summit triple. Laurel Mtn if they can get out of the operating agreement. I don't see any Snowtime properties going away, they're excellent profit when open and really lock down the DC market. Any Midwest mountain with a larger sibling serving the same metro area is at risk. Can't say I see JFBB going away, that's their counterweight to the Blue+Camelback KSL/Alterra team.


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## PAabe (Jan 13, 2022)

Many including myself would have said Big Boulder was at risk but they are doing lift upgrades - On the other hand Big Boulder is suffering the common snowmaking and staffing issues in a big way, and they have allegedly created very few terrain features on what was previously the largest set of terrain parks south of Mt. Snow
Laurel Mtn. is "safe" in that it is owned by the state and had a lot of recent investment to reopen including a brand new lift, but in the event Vail wanted to offload it it could be difficult to find an operator (such as the case with Denton Hill).  Maybe the Wisp folks? Used to have a multi Mountain benefit with 7 Springs pre Vail in the area
BTW I commend the Vail bonus


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## 2Planker (Jan 13, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Certified? Jeeze, I remember putting caps on between my legs in a cat and pulling and throwing out the window while driving down a ridge.


Exactly... There's no specific bomb cert.  
Just the certs for the  Avi courses themselves.  Newer tech allows for safer methods than the ol hand tossed grenade stick


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## Geoff (Jan 13, 2022)

abc said:


> "For employees who work a 40-hour a week and stay through April 15, that’s an extra $1,200. Except it’s really not since *bonuses are generally taxed around the 30% mark.* "
> 
> Can someone translate that?


Why would someone making $15/hour have 30% withholding?   They’re in the 12% bracket even with the bonus.  Single, the 12% bracket extends up to a bit more than $50k.  Someone making $30/hour in Colorado would be 22% bracket plus 4-ish percent state tax.


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## machski (Jan 13, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Why would someone making $15/hour have 30% withholding?   They’re in the 12% bracket even with the bonus.  Single, the 12% bracket extends up to a bit more than $50k.  Someone making $30/hour in Colorado would be 22% bracket plus 4-ish percent state tax.


Because the bonus payment will be tossed into a regular pay check.  Most payroll systems calculate earnings for taxes based solely off the individual check's gross at a per annual rate.  So that bonus $ could push that check into a much higher withholding bracket.  As others have noted, a tax payer would get most if not all of the additional withholding back when they file as a refund, assuming their normal pay was in fact their actual gross income bracket at years end.


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## snoseek (Jan 13, 2022)

I just checked the website and Wildcat is still the same 1.5 run. I also took a peak at the Webcam to look for snow guns and saw nothing so I guess they're hoping nature takes over. Bold move and it's gonna be a quick spring up there.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 13, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I just checked the website and Wildcat is still the same 1.5 run. I also took a peak at the Webcam to look for snow guns and saw nothing so I guess they're hoping nature takes over. Bold move and it's gonna be a quick spring up there.


Bold move especially with the busiest weekend of the year coming up... sad


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

I'm wondering when the last time was that Wildcat had such limited terrain open for MLK weekend.  Vail could be setting a snowmaking era record.


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## Edd (Jan 13, 2022)

Such bullshit, I skied Gunstock yesterday and the amount of terrain they have compared to Wildcat makes no sense. We’re skiing today and Wildcat isn’t even a consideration. It’s always been the default ski area and I haven’t even gone this season.


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## pinion247 (Jan 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So given Vail’s issues, assuming it continues to be rough, what do you see them doing?  Dropping Epic prices?  Selling some resorts (if so, which ones?)



Current strat seems to be pure growth mode so I wouldn't count on them selling resorts. With their CoH so high ($1.5b) it's safe to posit they are actively scouting to buy more resorts. With current PR issues, maybe they scale back some of the purchasing and switch back to building more "relationships" with other resorts to get them looped into the Epic pass, and use some of that cash to improve problematic infrastructure across their portfolio. That said, infrastructure is better addressed through debt but they may be in a tough situation here at multiple properties which could force the use of cash. At their size it will take time to steer the ship away from the rocks. Also, I'm just a dude with a computer and a desk and too much coffee thinking aloud on the internet.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 13, 2022)

Magic has a solid 2.5 top to bottom trails open. Go back five years, would anyone believe Magic would be ahead of a Peaks or a Vail property in snowmaking by MLK?


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## 1dog (Jan 13, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Current strat seems to be pure growth mode so I wouldn't count on them selling resorts. With their CoH so high ($1.5b) it's safe to posit they are actively scouting to buy more resorts. With current PR issues, maybe they scale back some of the purchasing and switch back to building more "relationships" with other resorts to get them looped into the Epic pass, and use some of that cash to improve problematic infrastructure across their portfolio. That said, infrastructure is better addressed through debt but they may be in a tough situation here at multiple properties which could force the use of cash. At their size it will take time to steer the ship away from the rocks. Also, I'm just a dude with a computer and a desk and too much coffee thinking aloud on the internet.


If the problem is strictly a lack-of-employee issue, what does the board here propose to solve it? If we had 'high unemployment' and still lacked help to make snow, run ski shops and food outlets, then one can postulate they aren't paying enough. 

It seems to be a lack of desire to work or that people have found work that doesn't require physical labor. With that much cash on hand, the bonus program seems to be putting some ( very little of total) of it to good use.  If shareholders want longer term return on their investment, that's not gonna do much to extend the prospect of returns 1-3 years from now. Think there are few who think long term with regards to investments like Vail - Lot of them already received the big returns and have, will, or plan to move on to other lower P/E ratio businesses.( Its 88+) Yet 95% of the shares are held by institutional investors. Go figure. To Edds point, do these folks even care what a legend like Wildcat even means to the larger scale of the business? No, not at all apparently.


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## JimG. (Jan 13, 2022)

Problem is that people keep buying the Epic pass because it's cheap.

If you want Vail to change stop buying the pass.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 13, 2022)

It's simple - offer a higher wage to account for the tough hours, tough conditions and often long commuted required to work on a ski hill.  Clearly they are below the market clearing price for labor.

The end.


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## cdskier (Jan 13, 2022)

1dog said:


> If the problem is strictly a lack-of-employee issue, what does the board here propose to solve it? If we had 'high unemployment' and still lacked help to make snow, run ski shops and food outlets, then one can postulate they aren't paying enough.



The question is how are other resorts somehow managing to avoid the same level of challenges filling positions that Vail seems to be having at their resorts? I'm not saying other resorts aren't having issues, but they do seem to be less issues than the Vail resorts. I don't have details on the NH market, but I can compare Stowe to Sugarbush in VT for example. Sugarbush supposedly has a team of 40+ people on their snow-making team (that actually started at over 50 but a few were lost due to attrition as usual). Yet reports in the Stowe thread are that they're down to a handful of snow-makers. Even if those numbers are wrong and it is double or triple that amount and you add in a few more supervisors/managers/compressor/pump operators, that's still way below a nearby competitor that should be experiencing fairly similar challenges with labor. Maybe Stowe needs less overall than SB in general for some reason, but it still seems like a rather significant difference. 

To me it seems clear that the issue is Vail is doing something wrong if they're having the depth of staffing challenges that they reportedly have.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 13, 2022)

JimG. said:


> Problem is that people keep buying the Epic pass because it's cheap.
> 
> If you want Vail to change stop buying the pass.



yep, and you'll never beat them because enough people are casual skiers who get their 5 days a year for ~$100/day and are happy. its just a mass market product now. savvy skiers will seek the more niche products that cater to savvy skiers. vail is disneyworld.


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## pinion247 (Jan 13, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yep, and you'll never beat them because enough people are casual skiers who get their 5 days a year for ~$100/day and are happy. its just a mass market product now. savvy skiers will seek the more niche products that cater to savvy skiers. vail is disneyworld.



Which is why them keeping Wildcat in the portfolio is so damn confusing. Clearly I have a bias here because Wildcat has been my home mountain for a long time.


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## drjeff (Jan 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The question is how are other resorts somehow managing to avoid the same level of challenges filling positions that Vail seems to be having at their resorts? I'm not saying other resorts aren't having issues, but they do seem to be less issues than the Vail resorts. I don't have details on the NH market, but I can compare Stowe to Sugarbush in VT for example. Sugarbush supposedly has a team of 40+ people on their snow-making team (that actually started at over 50 but a few were lost due to attrition as usual). Yet reports in the Stowe thread are that they're down to a handful of snow-makers. Even if those numbers are wrong and it is double or triple that amount and you add in a few more supervisors/managers/compressor/pump operators, that's still way below a nearby competitor that should be experiencing fairly similar challenges with labor. Maybe Stowe needs less overall than SB in general for some reason, but it still seems like a rather significant difference.
> 
> To me it seems clear that the issue is Vail is doing something wrong if they're having the depth of staffing challenges that they reportedly have.



I think some of it may very well be related to the shake up they tend to make where so many of the previous management, often with a good working knowledge of the resort and its guests as well as the rapport the managers have made with their employees, and fire them to be replaced with a new face, almost always from within the Vail Resorts network, and often with little/no knowledge of the resort and its clientele. You get some employees who so want to see "their" mountain succeed in a situation where they have a new leader who either isn't allowed via their bosses to operate in a way that gave it success in the past or even worse won't support their employees in a way that has their employees feeling good about what their doing, and that can be regardless of what they're getting paid. And you are starting to see some of this in the industry where some of the former Peak crew, who either left before Vail took over or were let go after the first season have moved onto other, non Vail resorts and are doing some good things that their employees and customers and even bosses are recognizing. In retrospect some day I bet some of the Vail higher ups will second guess their choice to not retain  atleast some of the management staff from some of the resorts they acquired over the last few years, especially given how many new resorts they have added. Just exactly how much GOOD managerial new talent did Vail have in their middle management levels that they promoted to a newly acquired resort vs how much GOOD managerial talent did they acquire when they purchased those resorts, but never really gave a fair shake to? 

Then you've got a core group of employees with a new leader and a bunch of new policies, that may very well have some questioning if they still want to work there and/or have the same passion for the mountain given that their managers may not understand the culture of the mountain vs the culture of Vail Resorts.  I think in the East in particular we all saw that about a decade ago when Powdr bought Killington and tried to run Killington in a way that was quite different than what made Killington Killington and got it all of the visits and loyalty it had. 

Not to say that some things that a big corporate ski cpmpany does aren't reasonable changes, however it seems often that they're trying to turn what made the resort what it is in the first place into something that it may very well not be. Often like the old adage of trying to fit a sqaure object into a round hole.....


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## eatskisleep (Jan 13, 2022)

Would just like to say this is what happens when you make the day cost of skiing so friggen high, it “forces” people to buy an epic pass where the break even is like 3 days a season. Man, I really hope they sell Wildcat to someone


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## IceEidolon (Jan 13, 2022)

Vail has gutted the experienced cadre of maintenance, operations, management and support staff. This is a Vail problem. They are failing to execute when local competitors aren't. This is not "people don't want to work" this is "Vail is being out-competed for a limited resource, employees."


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 13, 2022)

They shouldn't have gutted the local knowledge.  It really is that simple.  They are too bullheaded to see this which is why they are trying to push a bunch of round pegs through their square corporate ways.

Labor is what it is.  Some aren't having problems, but lots are.  Killington is experiencing the same issues with having enough labor to expand in what is amounting to a poor winter so far.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2022)

What I think Vail is trying to do is develop their brand to be similarly consistent like a hotel chain. Be the Hilton or Marriott of the skiing industry.  The thing is that there is a vast amount of Hilton and Marriott hotels that aren't corporate owned and are franchises.  There is a minimum standard to fly the brand flag, but there is still a fairly large range of quality between various hotels.  In that sense, Hilton and Marriott are really more like Alterra.  

Returning more local control really is the only way I see things improving


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## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2022)

The strike seems to be averted.  For now.









						Vail Resorts, PCMR ski patrol reach tentative deal, likely averting a strike (updated)
					

Park City Mountain Resort owner Vail Resorts and the union that represents ski patrollers on Thursday jointly announced the two sides reached an agreement in principle about a new contract for the ski patrol.




					www.parkrecord.com


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## eatskisleep (Jan 13, 2022)

Looks like they can hire unvaxxed again... if they want... https://www.wsj.com/articles/suprem...em-for-healthcare-workers-11642103130?mod=mhp


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## 2Planker (Jan 13, 2022)

Many who left (instructors, patrollers) were working for free, just the pass.
That should tell you something.
It wasn't about the wages.


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## machski (Jan 13, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Looks like they can hire unvaxxed again... if they want... https://www.wsj.com/articles/suprem...em-for-healthcare-workers-11642103130?mod=mhp


They have never been prohibited from doing so as the implementation date never hit.  Regardless, even SCOTUS has upheld a company's right to make such a mandate.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 13, 2022)

machski said:


> They have never been prohibited from doing so as the implementation date never hit.  Regardless, even SCOTUS has upheld a company's right to make such a mandate.


Yes I understand that. My thought was just that they wouldn’t hire unvaxxed knowing that they would have to test them weekly or fire them come January 4th (the original date the mandate was supposed to take place). Now, if they decide to change that policy, there are no hurdles with OSHA or federally speaking.


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## PAabe (Jan 13, 2022)

The supreme court case and its outcome was entirely predictable and Vail was stupid to fire or not hire employees in advance of the deadline actually hitting

Now they all work at Vail's wiser competitors


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## eatskisleep (Jan 13, 2022)

Did Wildcat or Attitash blow any snow this week in prep for MLK weekend?


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## ss20 (Jan 14, 2022)

I've talked to maybe half a dozen people who taught for VR east and west and no one had anything nice to say other than a free Epic pass.  More students, less $$$.  That combo doesn't work lol.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 14, 2022)

I hear Wildcat has been working on Upper Catapult - no word how far they've gotten.


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## Edd (Jan 14, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Did Wildcat or Attitash blow any snow this week in prep for MLK weekend?


Yesterday, driving by, I saw Attitash blowing on both Attitash and Bear.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2022)

XTski said:


> Knowing the Marriots personally from working on their huge home renovations it’s insulting comparing them to Vail as they are much more into customer service , back when Vail was run bye George Gillett you could compare them as they were all about customer service back then, I see vail more like the old Holiday health fitness ie sell as many memberships as possible by using salesman on the floor vs real personal trainers



You are missing my point entirely.  Marriott family / corporate owns and operates less than a third of Marriott hotels globally.   There is a minimum standard that's inspected annually to maintain your flag.   But there is a wide range of quality still.  Many of the highest rated Marriott's in the world are actually franchises, not Marriott owned.  

My knowledge of this is based on having worked for both Marriott corporate and Marriott franchises and having attended a few national Marriott leadership conferences when I worked in the hotel industry.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 14, 2022)

thank you for buying a mcvail franchise. you may only use your designated vail supplied official vail burgers and official vail mayonaisse. failure to do so is a breach of the operational manual and franchise agreement.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2022)

I believe it.  Their compound on Winnipesaukee is insane.  Like 5 or 6 homes side by side all in the 5k to 10k square foot plus range.  Whole compound is probably worth around $100M.  Kind of obnoxious and out of place to be honest


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## eatskisleep (Jan 14, 2022)

Somehow they missed NH 








						Are Vail Resorts Mountains Really Struggling to Open their Terrain? We Took a Look. — PeakRankings
					

In recent days, Vail Resorts has come under fire for not opening terrain fast enough at several resorts. Given the gravity of these claims, we’ve decided to investigate whether Vail Resorts has really struggled to match its competitors’ terrain offerings—and if so, how far they are lagging behind.




					www.peakrankings.com


----------



## Edd (Jan 14, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Somehow they missed NH
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty big miss; there’s 4 Vail areas here with multiple competing mountains. I think Vail would have come out looking worse had they covered NH.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 14, 2022)

They also missed the Hunter/Windham comparison. Those two mountains and their snowmaking crews used to brawl, but Hunter's hardly able to throw a punch this year. In PA, look at the delayed openings and lower trail counts at JFBB compared to Blue, and compare the Snowtime operations to Bear Creek and Shawnee.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 14, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> They also missed the Hunter/Windham comparison. Those two mountains and their snowmaking crews used to brawl, but Hunter's hardly able to throw a punch this year. In PA, look at the delayed openings and lower trail counts at JFBB compared to Blue, and compare the Snowtime operations to Bear Creek and Shawnee.


Even comparing to Belleayre would be interesting. Since that article is using the % open metric, Belleayre is currently at 70% to Hunter's 56%.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 14, 2022)

I've been out skiing quite a bit all over. The general consensus from chairlift conversations is never again. The masses are going to take notice. Nh people are pissed and over in vt they all seem to be too despite semi normal. I think sunapee has been run fairly good but all those regulars aren't happy. The crotched people might be the saltiest....for good reason.

Right about now winter comes in and people quiet down but I'm not sure about this year. I think vail will lose a huge share in the northeast.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

I don't know if this was posted, but here is the Seattle Times article on Stevens Pass:









						Closed terrain, staff shortages plague Stevens Pass at start of Washington’s 2021-22 ski season
					

The ski season is off to a rough start at Stevens Pass. Customer complaints have soared as over half of the mountain remains closed due to inadequate staffing, which has led to unplowed parking lots, long lift lines and bare-bones...




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## gittist (Jan 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I've been out skiing quite a bit all over. The general consensus from chairlift conversations is never again. The masses are going to take notice. Nh people are pissed and over in vt they all seem to be too despite semi normal. I think sunapee has been run fairly good but all those regulars aren't happy. The crotched people might be the saltiest....for good reason.
> 
> Right about now winter comes in and people quiet down but I'm not sure about this year. I think vail will lose a huge share in the northeast.


Most everyone will piss and moan but go right back to Vail next year but I truly hope that the masses will notice and next year Vail has so few sales that they don't have the revenue stream to rent a port-a-pot for a week. 

How about we put the upper management into a port-a-pot and push them down a steep slope?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

gittist said:


> Most everyone will piss and moan but go right back to Vail next year but I truly hope that the masses will notice and next year Vail has so few sales that they don't have the revenue stream to rent a port-a-pot for a week.
> 
> How about we put the upper management into a port-a-pot and push them down a steep slope?


Rob Katz is counting his money and smiling.

I think Vail got too big.  The fact that they just bought more ski resorts when they cannot run the ones they have is laughable.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2022)

gittist said:


> Most everyone will piss and moan but go right back to Vail next year but I truly hope that the masses will notice and next year Vail has so few sales that they don't have the revenue stream to rent a port-a-pot for a week.


It takes several years before any of such effect to be felt. So don't expect any quick turn around. 

Of those who piss and moan:
1) Those who have property in one of the Vail mountains don't have much of a choice unless they sell out and move to a different town
2) More new comer will replace those who can and do leave Vail. Until they got pissed off enough and leave, the "churn" will keep the pass sale figure stable.
3) Vail can buy more mountains to make it look good on paper. 

So no, I'm not counting on Vail being pressured into changing for the better any time soon. I'm fortunate I'm free to leave.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

So I just looked at Crotched.  It is 12:17pm there and 32 F.  Two lifts running--West Mountain, the carpet.  Rocket is "delayed" for some reason.  Seems really weird.


----------



## oldfartrider (Jan 14, 2022)

Was planning on heading up after work for my first Crotched day this year. What a disappointment


----------



## gittist (Jan 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Rob Katz is counting his money and smiling.
> 
> I think Vail got too big.  The fact that they just bought more ski resorts when they cannot run the ones they have is laughable.


I was thinking (as painful as it is)..maybe Vail bought all of these little areas so they'd have a place to train people for the big areas? Like AAA baseball, the AHL, and a lot of the smaller hockey leagues.  Having a manager vail at Wildcat is one thing, at Beaver Creek is another. 

Yeah, katz probably saw the gravy train was coming to an end so he jumped off.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 14, 2022)

gittist said:


> I was thinking (as painful as it is)..maybe Vail bought all of these little areas so they'd have a place to train people for the big areas? Like AAA baseball, the AHL, and a lot of the smaller hockey leagues.  Having a manager vail at Wildcat is one thing, at Beaver Creek is another.



I doubt that as there is little-no mid-level management at the resorts Vail owns.  They can't train you to become a good accountant if you're just running some local numbers and then sending them off to Corporate.  You can't train someone in Purchasing if 70% of the suppliers are dictated by Corporate.  You can't be a solid GM if you're just executing what Corporate wants you to do, rather than making real decisions.   

I worked in a decision-making lower management role at my old ski school.  The pay is crap.  The people are fun, but challenging.  The hours are long.  Really the only redeeming quality I found was that my inputs/choices could make a genuine difference in the quality of lessons we were putting out, staff morale, and guest satisfaction.  If I worked under Vail and was put in a box where I had a limited ability to change things I didn't like I would certainly not take the role.  Why come to work to be the person in-charge and have customers/staff complain to you all day without having any way to fix the problems/issues that are so blatantly obvious yet out of your control?  That's just 5 months of torture.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

Well now....









						Mount Sunapee Becomes Latest Vail Mountain to Issue Apology
					

After a slow start to their snowmaking efforts this season, along with a bumper-to-bumper traffic jam on Saturday, Mount Sunapee released a video discussing their early struggles so far this season…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 14, 2022)

Vail...


----------



## mtskifan (Jan 14, 2022)

Lots of good info in this thread, wish I had found it prior to buying Vail passes for the season! Really disappointing start to the season without enough snowmaking at the four NH mountains. Looking at webcams, the main chairlift at Crotched (Rocket) is still idle at 2:30 PM on Friday before the holiday weekend. Really wonder what is going on there...


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 14, 2022)

Vail Resorts reports skier visits are down for start of the season
					

Vail Resorts reported Friday that its skier visits at its North American resorts from the beginning of the season through Jan. 2 are down 1.7% from the prior year, and down 18.3% compared with the…




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

mtskifan said:


> Lots of good info in this thread, wish I had found it prior to buying Vail passes for the season! Really disappointing start to the season without enough snowmaking at the four NH mountains. Looking at webcams, the main chairlift at Crotched (Rocket) is still idle at 2:30 PM on Friday before the holiday weekend. Really wonder what is going on there...


Their Twitter says they are "still fine tuning" the lifts.  WTF?  That is what they are supposed to do in OCTOBER.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So I just looked at Crotched.  It is 12:17pm there and 32 F.  Two lifts running--West Mountain, the carpet.  Rocket is "delayed" for some reason.  Seems really weird.


west was shut down for a bit yesterday for "maintenance"...they got everyone off, then about an hour or so later it was going again.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Their Twitter says they are "still fine tuning" the lifts.  WTF?  That is what they are supposed to do in OCTOBER.



I want to go there monday as it only 27 miles from my place but:

1. its all back roads, and NH is a plow optional state on some back roads; and

2. I'd hate to get there after risking death only to find one of the main lifts not working.

All vail had to do to keep me happy was not fuck up sunapee and crotched.

task failed successfully. I'm done after this year. I tried, I'm good.

and with the cold that scoming tomorrow, is anyone going to bet that there are no lifts issues at Okemo or mount snow like they've had all year? Im not....


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 14, 2022)

I arrived at Crotched this am expecting an " Experience of a lifetime", of course, as that's what I'm told by Vail. I found:
Valley Quad idle, never inspected for this season. 
Park lift, can't really be called a chairlift because, well, no chairs on it, never inspected. 
Rocket, closed for maintenance and waiting for a part. No time estimate
West double and carpet up an running. Yeah, that's enough capacity with a full parking lot. Fail, so off to Sunapee I go. 

Not so bad at Sunapee after an extra 45 minutes drive.  Really weak effort with minimal trails open, but the skiing on what's available was ok. Every single person I road the lift with was complaining about Vail. Hundred percent, and I wasn't the only one that tried Crotched first.  Word is getting out and the Vail Sucks movement is spreading. 
VAIL SUCKS


----------



## Dickc (Jan 14, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> I want to go there monday as it only 27 miles from my place but:
> 
> 1. its all back roads, and NH is a plow optional state on some back roads; and
> 
> ...


Crotched is now closed on Monday and Tuesday every week until the end of the season.  Fail Inc is showing its ineptitude.


----------



## abc (Jan 14, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Crotched is now closed on Monday and Tuesday every week until the end of the season.  Fail Inc is showing itsI  ineptitude.


I wonder if there's ground for a refund (or a class action lawsuit if it's not forthcoming) for those who plan to ski Crotched exclusively/regularly, especially those with midweek pass.


----------



## gittist (Jan 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well now....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So how much longer will that GM be employed by Vail?


----------



## mtskifan (Jan 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> I arrived at Crotched this am expecting an " Experience of a lifetime", of course, as that's what I'm told by Vail. I found:
> Valley Quad idle, never inspected for this season.
> Park lift, can't really be called a chairlift because, well, no chairs on it, never inspected.
> Rocket, closed for maintenance and waiting for a part. No time estimate
> ...



Ugh, sorry to hear about your day. Pretty pathetic that "fine tuning on our lifts" = primary chairlift offline until part arrives. At a minimum they should be upfront with communication before someone drives there.


----------



## Harvey (Jan 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> I arrived at Crotched this am expecting an " Experience of a lifetime"


I don't believe you.


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 14, 2022)

Harvey said:


> I don't believe you.


Let's just say I was expecting a tiny bit more than one 50 something years old mid mountain double with a half hour lift line and access to two open trails operating


----------



## FBGM (Jan 14, 2022)

lol at Attatash GM “stepping down”. Either got the boot or he jumped ship like the others


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2022)

The Wildcat GM came from Crested Butte.  Wonder what he thinks about that decision now


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

mtskifan said:


> Ugh, sorry to hear about your day. Pretty pathetic that "fine tuning on our lifts" = primary chairlift offline until part arrives. At a minimum they should be upfront with communication before someone drives there.


What is the issue?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2022)

gittist said:


> So how much longer will that GM be employed by Vail?


Well, since he mentioned crowds and related issues, then Alterra would have fired him by now....


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Their Twitter says they are "still fine tuning" the lifts.  WTF?  That is what they are supposed to do in OCTOBER.


Where's Mr Hugh Conway with the insider scoop here? I think he'd find a more receptive audience, talking about Vail trouble.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 14, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> The Wildcat GM came from Crested Butte.  Wonder what he thinks about that decision now


Wasn’t he in the food industry there? Or am I mixing this up?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2022)

I forget, but I know he was at CB prior.   Apparently from Maine originally.  So at least the shitty job is near home


----------



## machski (Jan 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> Let's just say I was expecting a tiny bit more than one 50 something years old mid mountain double with a half hour lift line and access to two open trails operating


This is when the lack of at least having Valley on standby if Rocket goes down is killing Crotched.  Pathetic.  That said, Rocket is a Garaventa HSQ so not sure how readily parts are available for those machines.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2022)

machski said:


> This is when the lack of at least having Valley on standby if Rocket goes down is killing Crotched.  Pathetic.  That said, Rocket is a Garaventa HSQ so not sure how readily parts are available for those machines.



It's unbelievable to me they don't have Valley ready to go as the backup for the Rocket.  With Valley and West, you can still ski 75% of the mountain.  A bummer for sure, but worth staying. 

Just the West with a 30 minute line and then the carpet?  That's catastrophically bad.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2022)

machski said:


> This is when the lack of at least having Valley on standby if Rocket goes down is killing Crotched.  Pathetic.  That said, Rocket is a Garaventa HSQ so not sure how readily parts are available for those machines.


Likely something Doppelmayr, who bought Garaventa, can fix.  Assuming Vail is current on their tab.


----------



## Quietman (Jan 15, 2022)

Rocket is fixed, for now.  Valley needs to be fixed also! Too many customers are getting really pissed off, and it's not the mountains employees fault, but they have to listen to the vitriol.  Someone in Vail management needs to have a "Jerry McGuire" blowup and say that this is not how we shouldn't be treating our client/customers!  Workers, especially patrollers need to continue to say "show me the money"!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2022)

People Really Want to Ski. Vail Is Racing to Keep Up.
					

Worker shortages, long lines and less open terrain are making this winter season challenging for the resort titan of the ski industry. “I want you to open my mountain.”




					www.wsj.com
				



Big article in the WSJ today about Vail


----------



## machski (Jan 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Likely something Doppelmayr, who bought Garaventa, can fix.  Assuming Vail is current on their tab.


Absolutely agree.  But look at Bachelor, Skyliner is an older model pure Dopp HSQ and it is down indefinitely due to a component that Dopp doesn't fully support any longer (too old).  I doubt Dopp keeps much of the old Garaventa gear lying around on shelves.  They can support surely, but likely not quick fixes.


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> People Really Want to Ski. Vail Is Racing to Keep Up.
> 
> 
> Worker shortages, long lines and less open terrain are making this winter season challenging for the resort titan of the ski industry. “I want you to open my mountain.”
> ...



Pretty soft regarding NH:

"_Vail had its challenges in New Hampshire, as well. In the southern part of that state, Vail’s Crotched Mountain made changes to its schedule by closing Mondays and Tuesdays during the regular season, and removing popular sessions that stayed open past midnight. It had 57% of its terrain open as of Friday morning. At Crotched, it said, the change to a five-day schedule “allows our resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests.” It continues to hire and reassess operations there, the company added_."

No mentioning of percentage at Wildcat and Attitash.
.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2022)

abc said:


> Pretty soft regarding NH:
> 
> "_Vail had its challenges in New Hampshire, as well. In the southern part of that state, Vail’s Crotched Mountain made changes to its schedule by closing Mondays and Tuesdays during the regular season, and removing popular sessions that stayed open past midnight. It had 57% of its terrain open as of Friday morning. At Crotched, it said, the change to a five-day schedule “allows our resort teams to better focus on delivering the best possible ski and ride experience for our guests.” It continues to hire and reassess operations there, the company added_."
> 
> ...


Yeah very disappointed about that


----------



## skimagic (Jan 15, 2022)

Just what I thought from WSJ, too many people complaining about nothing.  Stats show 90% of vail liftines are less than 10 minutes and open terrain is comparable to competitors.  Enjoy the epic experience people.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 15, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> People Really Want to Ski. Vail Is Racing to Keep Up.
> 
> 
> Worker shortages, long lines and less open terrain are making this winter season challenging for the resort titan of the ski industry. “I want you to open my mountain.”
> ...


Did Vail pay them to write that article or what.  Not critical of them at all and says competitors in VT and NH have such as Cannon have similar staffing issues and terrain open.

Also does not mention any of Vail's employee retention or middle management fiascos, or that competitors have done far better in terms of staffing and wages
lmao


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well now....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He forgot to mention Sunapee's snowmakers were "loaned" to Okemo for a week before xmas...


----------



## kendo (Jan 15, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> People Really Want to Ski. Vail Is Racing to Keep Up.
> 
> 
> Worker shortages, long lines and less open terrain are making this winter season challenging for the resort titan of the ski industry. “I want you to open my mountain.”
> ...




WJS says they interviewed the CEO on Friday and yet the 2150 word article contains exactly 52 words from the CEO.  Everything in the article was already well documented by others.  Cut, paste and fluff is now the WSJ journalistic standard.   

First question from WSJ should have been:

_The Epic pass Core season for Epic coverage is 12/7 - 4/17, what are you doing to ensure the product your customers purchased is delivered by 12/7 and how will you ensure it's in place through 4/17?    _

and then go from there...


----------



## Edd (Jan 15, 2022)

Vail PR, flooding the zone with "facts" and dodging all hard questions.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 15, 2022)




----------



## skimagic (Jan 15, 2022)

Edd said:


> Vail PR, flooding the zone with "facts" and dodging all hard questions.


Angry Epic schmucks ripping the fake news  in the article comment section.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


>



Yeah, but those violin players in the lobby!


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, but those violin players in the lobby!


You gotta buy the lifeboat access pass to hear those though


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> You gotta buy the lifeboat access pass to hear those though


They're probably on strike too anyways 

I'm told management is aware of the problem


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> People Really Want to Ski. Vail Is Racing to Keep Up.
> 
> 
> Worker shortages, long lines and less open terrain are making this winter season challenging for the resort titan of the ski industry. “I want you to open my mountain.”
> ...


That’s a one-sided article IMHO.  They let Vail downplay the issues.

And I saw that they interviewed Pats Peak.  Pats Peak FTW!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2022)

machski said:


> Absolutely agree.  But look at Bachelor, Skyliner is an older model pure Dopp HSQ and it is down indefinitely due to a component that Dopp doesn't fully support any longer (too old).  I doubt Dopp keeps much of the old Garaventa gear lying around on shelves.  They can support surely, but likely not quick fixes.


Well, we are talking about a POWDR resort.  The best in incompetence….


----------



## TahoeDad (Jan 15, 2022)

Sunapee floated an idea to the town to stop selling day lift tickets on weekends and holidays to alleviate crowding and traffic concerns. Sunapee is a state park - not sure that can be an option. Vail took over the lease a few years ago, not sure how many years are left. It used to be a nice place to go.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2022)

TahoeDad said:


> Sunapee floated an idea to the town to stop selling day lift tickets on weekends and holidays to alleviate crowding and traffic concerns. Sunapee is a state park - not sure that can be an option. Vail took over the lease a few years ago, not sure how many years are left. It used to be a nice place to go.


Frankly, limiting day ticket sales is a joke considering the "new" business model.  Vail is actively deterring folks from buying day tickets so that they are forced to go Epic.  Day ticket purchasers are fairweather skiers and riders who are fickle and harder to attract.  They also do not go out that often.  So the entire business model has focused on pushing people to buy season passes that are "discounted".  So it is an empty promise as Epic Passes are not limited. 

Alterra does the same thing with Deer Valley.  Folks have noticed that Deer Valley is now more crowded despite the continued "restricted day ticket sales."  The dirty secret is that yes day tickets are limited, but that was already the case anyway.  They don't restrict IKON passholders on normal days.  They can't.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2022)

Yes it is just to get people to say “oh no we booked a house this weekend... and we can’t buy lift tickets... let’s just get an epic pass instead”


----------



## snoseek (Jan 15, 2022)

Another check of the Wildcat webcam and another day of no apparent snowmaking. Is Lynx going to actually open this year? Only mother nature can answer that


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

18% of terrain open at Cat and 31% (sounds high) for Attitash.  Epic MLK weekend product


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 15, 2022)

Western Plan skiing. One trail per lift of solid snowmaking, then supplement natural snowfall with reconditioning snow elsewhere. If you have a good snow year, you save so much money!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> 18% of terrain open at Cat and 31% (sounds high) for Attitash.  Epic MLK weekend product


That represents an 82% and 69% cost savings respectively.


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 15, 2022)

They made snow on wildkitten last sunday/monday but not enough to open it. They haven't made anything since then but they have connected the hoses on upper catapult. I'm not holding my breath on lynx seeing snowmaking this season.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 15, 2022)

Remember when they used to do the 100K vert challenge on Lynx? Always wanted to try that...


----------



## Mainer (Jan 15, 2022)

Tomorrow is going to be mayhem at atticat. Today was freezing, I imagine not many people went. North Conway is packed. Slop fest on Monday. Social media is going to light them up tomorrow, guaranteed epic shit show.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 15, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Tomorrow is going to be mayhem at atticat. Today was freezing, I imagine not many people went. North Conway is packed. Slop fest on Monday. Social media is going to light them up tomorrow, guaranteed epic shit show.


Attitash will be an utter shitshow. Not sure about Wildcat but it wouldn't take a whole lot to pack those 1.5 runs.


Edit let the hate flow. Its for the better in the long run. All those second home owners up there probably want RobKatz head on a stick. I really really feel for the staff that has to constantly deal with angry customers that dont realize its not one bit their fault. That shits gotta grind down morale big time.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 15, 2022)

Imagine owning a house off of Abenaki or renting it for the holiday weekend to find out they don’t really run that lift anymore. Looks like the double doubles are done for good, no longer on lift status.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> 18% of terrain open at Cat and 31% (sounds high) for Attitash.  Epic MLK weekend product


Truly sucks. But some of that Stat can be atrributed to Mother Nature thus far thus season. 

Agree though that both Wildcat and Attitash should be somewhere North of 50% in their trail counts now


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Truly sucks. But some of that Stat can be atrributed to Mother Nature thus far thus season.



No it really can't.  There is no valid excuse for Vail's poor performance in NH. None. 

I'm primarily skiing at Gunstock this year with also an Indy Pass. Gunstock is low elevation and well south and much warmer than the Mount Washington Valley.  They have every lift running and more terrain available than Atticat combined.  95% of Gunstock's snowmaking terrain is open. 

You have a pretty good understanding of the business Jeff and recognize problems well evidenced from your posts here over many years. You know a shit ton more about snowmaking and lifts than I ever care too.  You're also an optimistic person to a fault, so there's that. 

That said, I can't figure out why you are such a devoted Vail apologist in the face of evidence that the vast majority of non-Vail properties are operating a lot better.  Is it because you're wed to Mt Snow and basically have to cheer on the mother ship?  Own a bunch of stock?  Both?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Imagine owning a house off of Abenaki or renting it for the holiday weekend to find out they don’t really run that lift anymore. Looks like the double doubles are done for good, no longer on lift status.



$1M+ homes.  Wealthy families that EVERY year before Vail even in the worst of weather had expectations of 70% at least of snowmaking terrain open.  Probably with kids that had a ball skiing a massive terrain park on Mythmaker.  With a chair spinning right outside your door.  Premium product for anywhere in New England. Now straight garbage.

Vail has literally made 20% as much snow at Atticat given the weather conditions as Peak would have.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> No it really can't.  There is no valid excuse for Vail's poor performance in NH. None.
> 
> I'm primarily skiing at Gunstock this year with also an Indy Pass. Gunstock is low elevation and well south and much warmer than the Mount Washington Valley.  They have every lift running and more terrain available than Atticat combined.  95% of Gunstock's snowmaking terrain is open.
> 
> ...


Like I said, one can certainly fault Vail Resorts for whatever reasons they publicly say (or is the actual truth behind the scenes) for their minimal percentage of open terrain all of their Eastern Resorts. Some Resorts WAY more than others, no doubt about it.

However you also can't ignore the challenges that Mother Nature has presented this season as well. If mother nature had given New England multiple 1-2ft Nor'easters this season by now, as she often has in the past, the percent of open terrain would very likely be much less of the story than it is now. 

Heck at my home Vail hill of Mount Snow, while there are only 2 trails and a half pipe with snowmaking not open this weekend, basically the only natural snow trails that are open are a couple of basically flat traversing connector trails that they can open with maybe 3-4" of base.

If Vail made some choices (and many this last year or 2 I certainly take issue with in the East especially!) based on the "hope" for a normal snow season, then they certainly should take all the criticism and then some for the choices they made in Broomfield.

I truly feel bad though for what the employees on the ground at the areas who deal with customers on the Frontline often deal with new, as they (the local employees) often feel so passionate about "their" mountain


----------



## abc (Jan 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> If Vail made some choices (and many this last year or 2 I certainly take issue with in the East especially!) based on the "hope" for a normal snow season, then they certainly should take all the criticism and then some for the choices they made in Broomfield.


I think that's THE point!

Vail has made a contract with the pass holders. The expectations are it would be as the same as historically the norm, which is no worse, if not better, than neighboring mountains.

Vail had failed to deliver on that contract. So it's very appropriate to label it as "s***"

Even if it only happened to one mountain, to the people who plan to ski THAT mountain, or anyone who lives nearby, would still think Vail "sucks". But when it's MANY mountains that suffered from such "choices made in Broomfield", it makes the *corporation* Vail SUCK!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Like I said, one can certainly fault Vail Resorts for whatever reasons they publicly say (or is the actual truth behind the scenes) for their minimal percentage of open terrain all of their Eastern Resorts. Some Resorts WAY more than others, no doubt about it.
> 
> However you also can't ignore the challenges that Mother Nature has presented this season as well. If mother nature had given New England multiple 1-2ft Nor'easters this season by now, as she often has in the past, the percent of open terrain would very likely be much less of the story than it is now.
> 
> ...



Do you not understand that the effort and product by virtually all of the competition is astronomically better under the exact same conditions Vail faces?   The level of ineptitude going on in NH is astonishingly historic.   I bet Attitash and Wildcat made more snow and ran more lifts 30 years ago than what Vail is doing right now.

All of us indeed feel bad for the local workers. We cheer them on and are appreciative as hell for the services they provide. 

That's not what this conversation is about though


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> .....If mother nature had given New England multiple 1-2ft Nor'easters this season by now, as she often has in the past, the percent of open terrain would very likely be much less of the story than it is now.....


LOL. No way dude. Vailcat hasn't blown a flake of snow on the signature blue groomer in the entire state of NH. Before vail you could count on lynx being the first 2k vert trail open in all of NE. People are pissed and rightfully so. 

Wait until epic pass sales fall and vail brings MWV style austerity to Mt. Snow so they can keep profits up a couple more quarters to get the c-suite their bonuses. It's not rocket surgery how this will play out.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> All of us indeed feel bad for the local workers. We cheer them on and are appreciative as hell for the services they provide.


I thought everybody quit or got fired, didn't realize there was anybody left to feel bad for.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 15, 2022)

They're about to be down another lifty in a couple days when their GM's two weeks notice is up.


----------



## bigbob (Jan 16, 2022)

Run eastern areas with western managers who do not understand eastern weather/market and this is the result. It happened at Killington when Nyberg was at the helm. At least Powdr figured it out fairly quick and put someone in charge who understands the east.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

Interesting to see what happens next season up there...cant imagine many epic pass sales any more...


----------



## Geoff (Jan 16, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Run eastern areas with western managers who do not understand eastern weather/market and this is the result. It happened at Killington when Nyberg was at the helm. At least Powdr figured it out fairly quick and put someone in charge who understands the east.


I’d point out that “pretty quick” was five years.  The skier visit drop-off was so astounding in the first two years that Nyberg had to do something or he would have gotten fired.  His last 3 years were marginally better but he was still getting spit on at the grocery store.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Jan 16, 2022)

Anyone see that Vail reached an agreement with Park Cities ski patrol union.  Vail l was kind enough to give ski patrollers $19 dollars per hour.  Wow it took Vail that long to give employees 19 dollar an hour wage.  My son makes close to that Washing dishes.  Boy vail doesn't care about their employees at all.  I know that the ski industry is having a difficult time filling jobs but maybe Vails problem is they are being extremely cheap with hour wages therefore no one will work for them.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 16, 2022)

They aren't saying what the patroller minimum wage is publicly, just the average wage.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2022)

nhskier1969 said:


> Anyone see that Vail reached an agreement with Park Cities ski patrol union.  Vail l was kind enough to give ski patrollers $19 dollars per hour.  Wow it took Vail that long to give employees 19 dollar an hour wage.  My son makes close to that Washing dishes.  Boy vail doesn't care about their employees at all.  I know that the ski industry is having a difficult time filling jobs but maybe Vails problem is they are being extremely cheap with hour wages therefore no one will work for them.


I did not see that it was $19.  I just saw that they agreed.  The ski patrol was asking for starting wage of $17.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Run eastern areas with western managers who do not understand eastern weather/market and this is the result. It happened at Killington when Nyberg was at the helm. At least Powdr figured it out fairly quick and put someone in charge who understands the east.


Yeah as Geoff said POWDR did not change for some time.  Now it is destroying Snowbird.


----------



## catskillman (Jan 16, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Run eastern areas with western managers who do not understand eastern weather/market and this is the result. It happened at Killington when Nyberg was at the helm. At least Powdr figured it out fairly quick and put someone in charge who understands the east.


remember that - he was at Hunter before Killington,  Noone could understand that one


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah as Geoff said POWDR did not change for some time.  Now it is destroying Snowbird


Would be nice if we could go back to the days where all ski areas were independent.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Would be nice if we could go back to the days where all ski areas were independent.


Right?  I’m old enough to have seen one cycle of corporate consolidation and then collapse.  ASC was the big deal and then imploded.  It took about 10 years or so for Vail to emerge as the 300 lb gorilla that it is.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 16, 2022)




----------



## FBGM (Jan 16, 2022)




----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)




----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 16, 2022)

Mount Snow today…


----------



## Quietman (Jan 16, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> It's unbelievable to me they don't have Valley ready to go as the backup for the Rocket.  With Valley and West, you can still ski 75% of the mountain.  A bummer for sure, but worth staying.


Valley lift ran today!  I waited until 3 to avoid the crowds and try on the new boots and it was nice to ski Pluto's.


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 16, 2022)

Jeez! How long did that line take to get through?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Mount Snow today…
> View attachment 52708
> View attachment 52709


That is an Epic Experience right there.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 16, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Jeez! How long did that line take to get through?


Don’t know saw it online, I’m not sadistic enough to go there on a weekend


----------



## WWF-VT (Jan 16, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Mount Snow today…
> View attachment 52708
> View attachment 52709


Ridiculous to deal with that shitshow.   I lapped better terrain with likely better conditions and about a 5 chair wait in the singles line at Mt Ellen today.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 16, 2022)

Hardly any wait at any lifts most of the morning at SB..12:30 called it a day as it got all scraped off..but a good 3.5 hours for sure..


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2022)

Tom Clyde: Look out for the union label
					

As I’m writing this on Thursday, news has come that the ski patrol union at Park City Mountain Resort and Vail Resorts have reached a tentative agreement on pay. The agreement now goes out to…




					www.parkrecord.com


----------



## trackbiker (Jan 16, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Mount Snow today…
> View attachment 52708
> View attachment 52709


Bet they made a fortune on parking!


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 16, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> Bet they made a fortune on parking!


Thats just stupid


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 16, 2022)

Waiting for DRjeff to say it wasn't that bad and shoot rainbows out of his ass.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 16, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Waiting for DRjeff to say it wasn't that bad and shoot rainbows out of his ass.



He's an optimist and I haven't skied Mount Snow since the Vail takeover....but for years did many weekend days there.  Even on a day like today I bet Sundance and Ego Alley were under a ten chair wait...if they were running.


----------



## meff (Jan 16, 2022)

ss20 said:


> He's an optimist and I haven't skied Mount Snow since the Vail takeover....but for years did many weekend days there.  Even on a day like today I bet Sundance and Ego Alley were under a ten chair wait...if they were running.



Both were running parts of the day - when we went over towards Ego Alley around noon it was stopped with folks on chairs, did a lap on Canyon and waited 10-15min for the Grand Summit after as Ego Alley was stopped and empty.   Sundance didn't start up until later in the day and was hit or miss if it had a line or not, didn't look over 5min at its worse tho.

We called it quits just before 2PM as conditions were getting pretty boiler plate.  Will be interesting to see what the storm brings and how bad the projected wind holds are in the AM.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 16, 2022)

ss20 said:


> He's an optimist and I haven't skied Mount Snow since the Vail takeover....but for years did many weekend days there.  Even on a day like today I bet Sundance and Ego Alley were under a ten chair wait...if they were running.


Zero chair wait along with the North Face.  Ego did break down though.  Lines were shorter than normal on the high speeds early in the day. I guess people were waiting for it to warm up a bit.  Grand Summit was also ski right on for our last couple runs.


----------



## SLyardsale (Jan 16, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Zero chair wait along with the North Face.  Ego did break down though.  Lines were shorter than normal on the high speeds early in the day. I guess people were waiting for it to warm up a bit.  Grand Summit was also ski right on for our last couple runs.


Tracy Bartels was matching up singles in the Canyon Express line at 10am this AM.  It felt like a PR stunt.


----------



## mtskifan (Jan 16, 2022)

Quietman said:


> Valley lift ran today!



I was surprised to see Valley running too! Points for effort although it was still a bit of a zoo. Guess Crotched is opening lifts while Attitash closes them?


----------



## chuckstah (Jan 16, 2022)

Vail must have forked over some $$ to get a quick inspection done. Then again, I'm sure all non Vail lifts were inspected long ago.


----------



## RH29 (Jan 16, 2022)

Mount Snow sounds rough today. A friend who was there today said lines were 20-30 minutes for the main lifts...and looking at the pictures here I believe it. Tomorrow will be insanity...20 inches of wet powder will be skiied off by noon, with hourlong lines to boot. I'm glad that I'm headed to Jay this week.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 16, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Mount Snow sounds rough today. A friend who was there today said lines were 20-30 minutes for the main lifts...and looking at the pictures here I believe it. Tomorrow will be insanity...20 inches of wet powder will be skiied off by noon, with hourlong lines to boot. I'm glad that I'm headed to Jay this week.



Lol there's certainly a lot of hyperbole in this post.  

Mount Snow is pretty much guaranteed to get more than Jay.  18" prediction at Mount Snow and maybe 12" at Jay...


----------



## mbedle (Jan 17, 2022)

This is an Epic Pass Holder Group Action Alert
					

This is an Epic Pass holder group action Alert to cancel your Epic Pass “auto-renewal.” Great job supporting the petition to hold Vail Resorts Accountable! As of today there are nearly 40,000 of us who have joined this petition. I am so proud of the impact we have had and the pressure we are...




					www.change.org


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 17, 2022)

Ide rather ski 6 inches at stowe or SB than deal with what mount snow has become..


----------



## trackbiker (Jan 17, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Thats just stupid


It was a joke. If I saw crowds like that I would have turned around and gone to Berkshire East. In fact I would never go to Mt. Snow on a weekend with all the passes Fail sold. I bet paying to park made that mob scene even a more Epic experience.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 17, 2022)

I hate vail as much as the next guy. But hasn’t mt snow always been like that on holiday weekend. Wind is cranking in the mwv, inch or so of snow right now


----------



## Killingtime (Jan 17, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> It was a joke. If I saw crowds like that I would have turned around and gone to Berkshire East. In fact I would never go to Mt. Snow on a weekend with all the passes Fail sold. I bet paying to park made that mob scene even a more Epic experience.


Last Saturday you couldn't find a place to park even if you were willing to pay for it.


----------



## elks (Jan 17, 2022)

mtskifan said:


> I was surprised to see Valley running too! Points for effort although it was still a bit of a zoo. Guess Crotched is opening lifts while Attitash closes them?


The part that was on order for months for Valley finally came in just in time for it to open this weekend.


----------



## skiur (Jan 17, 2022)

catskillman said:


> remember that - he was at Hunter before Killington,  Noone could understand that one


Nyberg was at hunter?  I think your mistaken here, he was only out west working for powdr before coming to K.


----------



## Katahdin (Jan 17, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Looks like the double doubles are done for good, no longer on lift status.


If the double doubles don't run this winter it essentially leaves Attitash no beginner terrain other then the learning center.  Looks like the triple may be broken again.  Went down yesterday morning and it's not running again today.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> If the double doubles don't run this winter it essentially leaves Attitash no beginner terrain other then the learning center.  Looks like the triple may be broken again.  Went down yesterday morning and it's not running again today.



It could be wind related.  Bretton Woods is closed with 82 mph winds at the summit.  That almost never happens.  So it's probably nasty every where up North


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2022)

For those that want to relive the glory days of Attitash, eBay has you covered.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 17, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> It could be wind related.  Bretton Woods is closed with 82 mph winds at the summit.  That almost never happens.  So it's probably nasty every where up North.


Crazy. I don't follow their lift statuses relentlessly, but I don't think I've ever heard of a wind hold at BW.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 17, 2022)

Who would even go on or trust one of those Wildcat or Attatish lifts at this point? No thanks.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> For those that want to relive the glory days of Attitash, eBay has you covered.


Some middle-aged guy who grew up in Fairfield County was handed a box of stuff by his parents over the holidays and told "we found more of your old stuff in the attic. Take it or throw it."

Source: am a middle-aged guy who grew up in Fairfield County...


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 17, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I hate vail as much as the next guy. But hasn’t mt snow always been like that on holiday weekend. Wind is cranking in the mwv, inch or so of snow right now



It really started to get bad when they came out with the peak pass a few years back, have not been post pandemic to see what the epic effect is, but Mount Snow was always crazy on weekends and holidays as long as I can remember


----------



## abc (Jan 17, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> It really started to get bad when they came out with the peak pass a few years back, have not been post pandemic to see what the epic effect is, but Mount Snow was always crazy on weekends and holidays as long as I can remember


That probably describe my situation. I've only skied Mt Snow occasionally even though it's one of the closest "big mountain" for day tripping. Being a weekend warrior, my memory of  Mt Snow had been insanely long lines. So much so I wrote it off entirely. I would pay $60-80 (that was pre-Vail) to ski a day. But I would not pay $50+ to just stand around in the cold. As a day ticket buyer, the lift line situation is one of the most important consideration factor in choosing where to ski. 

I probably hadn't skied at Mt Snow for quite a few years. Until it became part of Epic pass, that is. I did go there a few times last season, in the middle of pandemic. It wasn't quite as bad as I remembered. But that may have to do with the reservation cap too. 

Granted, as I wasn't paying any extra money to stand around, my tolerance for standing around was a bit higher. I suspect that mentality might also contribute to the extra long lines this season?


----------



## oldfartrider (Jan 17, 2022)

Ya crowds at Mt Snow is nothing recent. I can remember going there is there in the early 80s and having huge lines. First big mountain in Vermont it’s not surprising.


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2022)

Just going to throw this out there. And I know this won't be popular and will get me flamed, however atleast at Mount Snow, *some* of the changes Vail has made (more blackouts on the Northeast local, paid parking deterring some from going to Mount Snow, running more lifts on almost a daily basis and for longer with the secondary lifts than in the past) have lead to shorter liftlines on average than in the past, and especially since the Peak Pass really started building the crowds 5 or so years ago. 

That being said, it's still Mount Snow, and there are still plenty if lines, especially for the detachables out of the base areas. What used to be say a 20-25 minute line for the Bluebird during peak volume hours on a weekend is now more often a 15-20 minute line, and there is still the late morning crowd surge that starts at the main base, goes through the Northface, over through Sunbrook and eventually to Carinthia by early afternoon.

Vail has also implemented some options, that have made things easier, for a fee, for the regulars who ski/ride Mount Snow most weekends and/or have kids in the seasonal programs.

I get, this certainly isn't the norm at most of their Eastern properties, and there definitely are some issues that I have with how they are doing some things (such as snowreporting and communications in general often).

Let's hope that the storm of the last 24hrs gets a bunch of terrain opened up across all of New England now, and that we might get into a weather cycle like we did last year from mid January through late Feb with continued cold and regular snow events


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 17, 2022)

Can anyone tell me how to make sure my pass is not on auto-renew? I am 99% sure I set it that way but i cannot find any way to make sure when I'm in my epic acct. Its like that option doesn't exist.

Thanks!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 17, 2022)

I mean Mt Snow has always been a shit show, not surprised that its crowded on any weekend, yet a lone a holiday weekend that is one of the prime time holiday periods.

at Roundtop they've seemed to get enough staff to be 100% open, which is impressive considering they were closed 1/1-1/7 because of lack of snow.  There are still way too many people showing up, but at least they appear to have enough staff now to run all of the lifts they need to.  Closing Monday and Tuesday nights is a poor look and screams of a bean counter decision.  that being said those nights were undoubtedly in the red historically.  Killing off the night club program, which was primarily a school thing was also stupid and screams bean counter decision.  NH and the mid-west are definitely getting the screws the worst.  Maybe Stevens too...


----------



## Edd (Jan 17, 2022)

Friends are reporting that the Wildcat “bar” (such as it is) is closed today. On MLK.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 17, 2022)

Shawnee was great today. Winds were cranking so they closed the conveyor triple, but had the east side open which goes to the same place. It was empty. Almost all the snowmaking trails are open. Friend skied attitash today, said it was really good too. But he was ducking ropes all day. Then it started raining and I left. This storm should really increase the trail counts at wildcat


----------



## kendo (Jan 17, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Can anyone tell me how to make sure my pass is not on auto-renew? I am 99% sure I set it that way but i cannot find any way to make sure when I'm in my epic acct. Its like that option doesn't exist.
> 
> Thanks!



Have to call or email them:



			https://epicpass.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4411068445723-Can-I-opt-out-of-Auto-Renew-
		


Good luck and document your emails in case they 'forget' and charge you again.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2022)

Brutal Holiday Lift Lines Reported At Small Vail Resorts Ski Area
					

Cecily Tynan is a long-standing news anchor for ABC6 in Philadelphia, and funny enough, she was one of my first crushes as a young boy growing up in Delaware. Tynan has talked about her love of ski…




					unofficialnetworks.com
				





The author clearly has a crush on the news reporter he mentioned.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Brutal Holiday Lift Lines Reported At Small Vail Resorts Ski Area
> 
> 
> Cecily Tynan is a long-standing news anchor for ABC6 in Philadelphia, and funny enough, she was one of my first crushes as a young boy growing up in Delaware. Tynan has talked about her love of ski…
> ...


Three of 12 lifts on the busiest weekend of the year holy cow


----------



## PAabe (Jan 17, 2022)

I was at Elk yesterday and several people on the chairlift were complaining about jack frost


----------



## Geoff (Jan 17, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> Ya crowds at Mt Snow is nothing recent. I can remember going there is there in the early 80s and having huge lines. First big mountain in Vermont it’s not surprising.


I can vouch for the late 60s.  I was mostly at Stratton from ~ 1968 to 1976 but the southern Vermont ski areas all had 30 to 45 minute lift lines on weekends.  Fixed grip double chairs and little snowmaking.


----------



## mister moose (Jan 17, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I can vouch for the late 60s.  I was mostly at Stratton from ~ 1968 to 1976 but the southern Vermont ski areas all had 30 to 45 minute lift lines on weekends.  Fixed grip double chairs and little snowmaking.


Seconded.  I remember one high school trip to Sugarbush and we skied the gondola all day.   The line was 45 minutes, you'd do well to get 7 runs.

Fast forward to today at Killington.  In the morning only Snowshed, Northbrook, Superstar and Bear Chair were running.  Supe was loading 2 skiers per chair.  A foot of new snow.   The lines were ... epic.  Afternoon more got opened.

And the requisite "But I have all seasons" SUV was stuck in the parking lot.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 18, 2022)

Does anyone know why Attitash has whales that they haven't pushed out?  At a minimum Inside out has been done for a week and nothing. It sure would be good to get some of the beginners dispersed off of Far Out.

They've also randomly opened lots of the greens to the Abenaki, which is great for the McMansion owners, but there is no Abenaki!

It doesn't make any sense.  There is snow there.  Lots of snow.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 18, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Does anyone know why Attitash has whales that they haven't pushed out?  At a minimum Inside out has been done for a week and nothing. It sure would be good to get some of the beginners dispersed off of Far Out.
> 
> They've also randomly opened lots of the greens to the Abenaki, which is great for the McMansion owners, but there is no Abenaki!
> 
> It doesn't make any sense.  There is snow there.  Lots of snow.


They don't have enough staff to groom out the whales


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2022)

Getting a head start on next year actually.  Going to put insulated and light reflective tarps over the whales to preserve them for the summer.  Because they know next year the snowmaking staffing will be even worse.....


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 18, 2022)

It looks like they got some new HKD snow making equipment too…


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 18, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Does anyone know why Attitash has whales that they haven't pushed out?  At a minimum Inside out has been done for a week and nothing. It sure would be good to get some of the beginners dispersed off of Far Out.
> 
> They've also randomly opened lots of the greens to the Abenaki, which is great for the McMansion owners, but there is no Abenaki!
> 
> It doesn't make any sense.  There is snow there.  Lots of snow.


Staffing issues.   15 dollars an hour isn't very appealing to operate snowcats in this job market....  even less appealing to freeze all night making snow for 13 dollars an hour


----------



## gittist (Jan 18, 2022)

Did Vail lower the wages when they took over or did they just not keep up with the market?


----------



## Mainer (Jan 18, 2022)

Triple broke on Sunday at attitash. Super windy on Monday, not that windy today. Been closed since. Is it finally broken?


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 18, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Triple broke on Sunday at attitash. Super windy on Monday, not that windy today. Been closed since. Is it finally broken?



Super windy today as well. They did run a test around 2p for the triple but almost everyone gone by then and wind gusts were still high.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Triple broke on Sunday at attitash. Super windy on Monday, not that windy today. Been closed since. Is it finally broken?


Broken again?


----------



## Quietman (Jan 19, 2022)

gittist said:


> Did Vail lower the wages when they took over or did they just not keep up with the market?


They raised wages for this season, just not enough to keep up with the competition, and they also reduced dependent pass benefits, and may have chased some away with the vaccine mandate.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 19, 2022)

Quietman said:


> They raised wages for this season, just not enough to keep up with the competition, and they also reduced dependent pass benefits, and may have chased some away with the vaccine mandate.


ding ding ding!  vail decided to mandate an experimental, now obsolete (against omicron) vaccine on their employees, instead of waiting for the supreme court to strike it down.

fortunately there were plenty of other ski areas that didn't do this to their employees and they're looking pretty good now.  interesting that the areas that didn't force the vaccine mandate have close to normal snowmaking coverage and crews, while the corporate areas who fired or pressured their employees to resign now have skeleton crews and little snowmaking terrain open.  karma?


----------



## Zermatt (Jan 19, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> ding ding ding!  vail decided to mandate an experimental, now obsolete (against omicron) vaccine on their employees, instead of waiting for the supreme court to strike it down.
> 
> fortunately there were plenty of other ski areas that didn't do this to their employees and they're looking pretty good now.  interesting that the areas that didn't force the vaccine mandate have close to normal snowmaking coverage and crews, while the corporate areas who fired or pressured their employees to resign now have skeleton crews and little snowmaking terrain open.  karma?


Just for the sake of accuracy....the Supreme Court did NOT strike down the ability for any private or public employer to have a vaccine mandate.  They only struck down the ability for OSHA to have a blanket vaccine mandate.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 19, 2022)

So visits are allegedly down 18% and there are still massive lines due to over crowding and mismanagement.  tells a lot about how they operate.  The article is full of blame on COVID of course...









						Vail Resorts reports skier visits are down for start of the season
					

Vail Resorts reported Friday that its skier visits at its North American resorts from the beginning of the season through Jan. 2 are down 1.7% from the prior year, and down 18.3% compared with the…




					www.vaildaily.com


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## urungus (Jan 19, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> ding ding ding!  vail decided to mandate an experimental, now obsolete (against omicron) vaccine on their employees, instead of waiting for the supreme court to strike it down.
> 
> fortunately there were plenty of other ski areas that didn't do this to their employees and they're looking pretty good now.  interesting that the areas that didn't force the vaccine mandate have close to normal snowmaking coverage and crews, while the corporate areas who fired or pressured their employees to resign now have skeleton crews and little snowmaking terrain open.  karma?


Vaccines are hardly “obsolete“ … While breakthrough infections are more common, you are still many times more likely to be hospitalized or die after getting infected with omicron If you are unvaccinated.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 19, 2022)

urungus said:


> Vaccines are hardly “obsolete“ … While breakthrough infections are more common, you are still many times more likely to be hospitalized or die after getting infected with omicron If you are unvaccinated.


I suspect you're wasting your breath.  Better to spend your time reading about some karma....









						sorryantivaxxer.com | stories of anti-vaxxers who died from COVID.
					

They thought COVID was a scam, until they lay dying from it.  sorryantivaxxer.com tells their story using their own facebook and twitter posts.




					www.sorryantivaxxer.com


----------



## trackbiker (Jan 19, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So visits are allegedly down 18% and there are still massive lines due to over crowding and mismanagement.  tells a lot about how they operate.  The article is full of blame on COVID of course...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one isn't quite so positive and lists some of the problem and complaints towards the end. 
Yahoo Sports Article


----------



## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> This one isn't quite so positive and lists some of the problem and complaints towards the end.
> Yahoo Sports Article



Vail, sounding like mainly out of the main office in CO, has made multiple poor operational choices that have affected resort operations for sure this season.

I also think some of the visits down/lines up factor is that Mother Nature at times across the entire country hasn't been always friendly to getting terrain open, either via snowmaking or natural snow this season, so when things actually start to get decent, there's added pent up demand from the times when because of the weather people decaided not to go, and then add in the extra 700k or so EPIC's they sold this year.  Put that all together, and you get what that headline, and likely highly controled content of the story itself, says


----------



## trackbiker (Jan 19, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Vail, sounding like mainly out of the main office in CO, has made multiple poor operational choices that have affected resort operations for sure this season.
> 
> I also think some of the visits down/lines up factor is that Mother Nature at times across the entire country hasn't been always friendly to getting terrain open, either via snowmaking or natural snow this season, so when things actually start to get decent, there's added pent up demand from the times when because of the weather people decaided not to go, and then add in the extra 700k or so EPIC's they sold this year.  Put that all together, and you get what that headline, and likely highly controled content of the story itself, says


I get what you are saying and agree a combination of factors have caused problems. However, other than the additional pass sales, every other ski area has had to deal with all of the same issues. When demand goes up in any business you have to increase production of whatever you are selling. Vail did not increase snow making to provide more acreage to ski. While supplying more lifts has a significant lead time, they did not increase pay to make sure that they had the personnel on hand to run all of their lifts. If you sold subscriptions for annual teeth cleaning and sold 70% more than your current patient load you would have to hire more dental hygienists. If you didn't, your customers would be as pissed as Vails and rightfully so. Vail management Failed miserably by any business standard knowing that they were going to be mobbed this season.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> I suspect you're wasting your breath.  Better to spend your time reading about some karma....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i look forward to johnl87 and andrewB joining this website. on the 'died' page. not that 'came close' bullshit.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i look forward to johnl87 and andrewB joining this website. on the 'died' page. not that 'came close' bullshit.


I get that people are passionate over their beliefs but wishing death on those who disagree is a bit much; indeed it epitomizes everything that is wrong with both sides of our national discourse.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> ding ding ding!  vail decided to mandate an experimental, now obsolete (against omicron) vaccine on their employees, instead of waiting for the supreme court to strike it down.
> 
> fortunately there were plenty of other ski areas that didn't do this to their employees and they're looking pretty good now.  interesting that the areas that didn't force the vaccine mandate have close to normal snowmaking coverage and crews, while the corporate areas who fired or pressured their employees to resign now have skeleton crews and little snowmaking terrain open.  karma?


Let's keep the discussion on Vail.


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## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I get what you are saying and agree a combination of factors have caused problems. However, other than the additional pass sales, every other ski area has had to deal with all of the same issues. When demand goes up in any business you have to increase production of whatever you are selling. Vail did not increase snow making to provide more acreage to ski. While supplying more lifts has a significant lead time, they did not increase pay to make sure that they had the personnel on hand to run all of their lifts. If you sold subscriptions for annual teeth cleaning and sold 70% more than your current patient load you would have to hire more dental hygienists. If you didn't, your customers would be as pissed as Vails and rightfully so. Vail management Failed miserably by any business standard knowing that they were going to be mobbed this season.



I fully get what you are saying, and fully agree, that especially for their realtively newly acquired Eastern mainly day/weekend and evening night skiing resorts, that are often close to the large population bases that very well may be a major source of all the new passes that they sold, how they have chosen to opearte their resorts hasn't lived up to what so many of their pass holders were expecting, which ultimately is to get as much terrain open and lifts spinning as possible, in a reasonable amount of time given the opportunitues that Mother Nature presents, during the hours that the customers are used to.  Many things, that can't just be attributed all to Covid related issues, have played into the inability to do that at many of their resorts, and it's time to stop using that as a default excuse. Hopefully Kirsten Lynch will make the pivot and operational/policy changes that they need to.  And some aren't as simple as they may seem, for example Vail vaccination for employees stance. I have heard that there are some parents looking to put their kids into the profitable kids programs, for whom having a vaccinated staff is (or maybe post Omicron spike won't be as much of a factor) of extremely high importance and has been a deal breaker. And given where many of the Epic passholders may live where Covid did some major damage

The point about Mother Nature that I was making was more along the lines of a confounding issue, than the issue.  Since it was a slow roll out across the industry this season (often slower at numerous Vail Resorts than others) and then we've also had a few weekend days, when things were actually getting decent, where it either rained or has been very cold and windy, so those few "good" days weather wise that have fallen on weekends or holidays, the demand to get out there has been greater, and then add in all the new Epic passholders, and you get what we've had this season.

I get how fortunate I have been that my home mountain of Mount Snow, is arguably being operated much closer to "normal" than any other Eastern Epic Resort, so certainly my perspective will be different than what I read online from folks going to most every other Epic Resort in the East this season.  I also certainly hope that Vail makes whatever changes it needs to, to get things back an operating as close to "normal" as possible, or else their data driven approach that might have the financials looking good now, will soon likely lead to them not looking very good, and the reality is from a marketing perspective,, it's very difficult to bring back an existing customer once you have done something to drive them away, and with the social media, and now with multiple news stories, more major media coverage of their operational issues (heck my smallish daily paper based in SE CT had a story about issues Vail is having and contrasted with successes that other Eastern Ski Areas are having this season that ran just below the fold on the front page yesterday) once they loose someone, especially a new Epic passholder who isn't tied to a specific mountain because of geographic proximity to a residence or kids in a program, with all the other options out there now, they may be gone for years, if not for ever, unless changes are made, to keep the customer happy, and ultimately that will get down to a robust sized work force who is satified for working for them, and that's not the current situation in significant enough numbers to meet the expectations of so many Epic Passholders, especially those who live in the Northeast


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 19, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I get how fortunate I have been that my home mountain of Mount Snow, is arguably being operated much closer to "normal" than any other Eastern Epic Resort


 Yeah, we're lucky so far.  They did a very good job getting the lifts open on Monday.  Probably better than in the past.

Now Jack Frost on the other hand.  I usually go there a couple days a year when VT isn't looking so good.  But only 3 out of 10 lifts running on MLK weekend???  Guess that's not a reasonable option this year.  Will use my Montage Indy days if I make it out that way.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2022)

two people who joined our little northeastern ski forum solely to spew covid disinformation can drop dead for all i care.


----------



## Edd (Jan 19, 2022)

Main lot at Sunapee was full at 9am today. Conditions are very good.


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## Apple Country (Jan 19, 2022)

Long time lurker, first time caller. 

- Okemo before Christmas was graded a "C" in my book. Kids lesson confirmation/process was a mess. One magic carpet at Jackson Gore during the weekend. 

- Crotched on Sunday was a "C". Gnarly little hill for what it is, a complete dump of a warehouse/base lodge. Would respect if indy but Vail? Come on. 

- Sunapee Tuesday was an "A". 

-Onsite staff doing best at all, seem to be fighting Corporate.

- Looked up some SWAF tix for Stowe Presidents day week and they were more than regular online rate - Classic.


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## Edd (Jan 19, 2022)

Apple Country said:


> Long time lurker, first time caller.
> 
> - Okemo before Christmas was graded a "C" in my book. Kids lesson confirmation/process was a mess. One magic carpet at Jackson Gore during the weekend.
> 
> ...


Crotched base lodge….the aesthetic could be more cozy I suppose but the functionality is excellent.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2022)

Edd said:


> Crotched base lodge….the aesthetic could be more cozy I suppose but the functionality is excellent.


...and was built by Peaks Resorts back in 2003 or so.


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## jaytrem (Jan 19, 2022)

Apple Country said:


> - Looked up some SWAF tix for Stowe Presidents day week and they were more than regular online rate - Classic.



Maybe good for SWAE.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> two people who joined our little northeastern ski forum solely to spew covid disinformation can drop dead for all i care.



While I agree it's kinda lame for those types of drive by members who only wish to contribute by crowbarring their politics.  Let's keep the death wishes out of it.  We don't want that kinda language and threatening posts on this forum either.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

Wishing death on someone because you don’t like their politics is gross. People like you are screwing up this country. More people would get vaccinated if assholes like you would shut up and mind there own business. The nice thing about this thread is we all are coming together with our mutual hate of vail.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 19, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The nice thing about this thread is we all are coming together with our mutual hate of vail.


I don’t hate Vail.   I lived through this at Killington.   Laying off the full timers and converting almost everyone to part time seasonal with no benefits.   It sucked for 5 years.   Western resort people don’t understand eastern skiing.   Layer on top of that a reality that Vail probably doesn’t even want the North Conway ski areas or Crotched.  

In my opinion, if Vail is going to sell cheap passes, they have to limit the number of days per mountain.  If you want more than that, buy the more expensive pass.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 19, 2022)

Let's wish disassembly on the Attitash triple.  Conway Daily Sun makes it seem like Vail is "considering" replacing the lift.  What can we do, collectively, to push them harder to actually move Vail from "consideration" to "action?" https://www.conwaydailysun.com/busi...YE1hVQqJ2x3ddBnWQL80OrmYhA7p0nJ1UT_ItzO1PC6QQ


----------



## Keelhauled (Jan 19, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Let's wish disassembly on the Attitash triple.  Conway Daily Sun makes it seem like Vail is "considering" replacing the lift.  What can we do, collectively, to push them harder to actually move Vail from "consideration" to "action?" https://www.conwaydailysun.com/busi...YE1hVQqJ2x3ddBnWQL80OrmYhA7p0nJ1UT_ItzO1PC6QQ


I prescribe acetylene + oxygen, applied to base of tower.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 19, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> I prescribe acetylene + oxygen, applied to base of tower.


That's fixable, needs to be something more catastrophic


----------



## gittist (Jan 19, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> That's fixable, needs to be something more catastrophic


It wouldn't work. Fail (Vail) would do simply do an insurance claim based on vandalism and then use the proceeds to give the upper management in Bloomfied a really big bonus.  The following year they would get another bonus based on the lower labor and maintenance costs.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 19, 2022)

A quick update on the progress of Lynx snowmaking...yeah there is no Lynx snowmaking


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2022)

snoseek said:


> A quick update on the progress of Lynx snowmaking...yeah there is no Lynx snowmaking



Arguably the premier cruising run in the state.  It's really unbelievable


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2022)

Vail Stock down to $287.84.


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## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

When I skied Shawnee the other day every snowmaking trail was open. When I skied cranmore today, Tons of snowmaking going  on. No snowmaking at wildcat for weeks now. When my friend skied attitash on mlk day, huge line at bear. Illusion and morning star were theopen. Two trails off the yankee. Triple was broken or wind hold. He rode singles line all day, everybody he rode with was bitching about limited terrain. He said if he wasn’t ducking ropes he would have left immediately. It’s crazy how bad epic is this year, made last year look good.
   My plan is  probably the Shawnee/ Sunday River pass next year. I’m kinda afraid of the crowds there if all the epic pass holders move on.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail Stock down to $287.84.



i'd love to actually attribute this to their operational woes but the whole market is taking a beatdown the past couple weeks and bigly today


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## JimG. (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'd love to actually attribute this to their operational woes but the whole market is taking a beatdown the past couple weeks and bigly today


Time to clear out the suckers and create buying opportunities again. Everyone knows the market needs a correction.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 19, 2022)

gittist said:


> It wouldn't work. Fail (Vail) would do simply do an insurance claim based on vandalism and then use the proceeds to give the upper management in Bloomfied a really big bonus.  The following year they would get another bonus based on the lower labor and maintenance costs.


Vail already paid out 6 figure bonuses to upper mgmnt in Dec...
  "take the money & run"


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## pinion247 (Jan 19, 2022)

Mainer said:


> When I skied Shawnee the other day every snowmaking trail was open. When I skied cranmore today, Tons of snowmaking going  on. No snowmaking at wildcat for weeks now. When my friend skied attitash on mlk day, huge line at bear. Illusion and morning star were theopen. Two trails off the yankee. Triple was broken or wind hold. He rode singles line all day, everybody he rode with was bitching about limited terrain. He said if he wasn’t ducking ropes he would have left immediately. It’s crazy how bad epic is this year, made last year look good.
> My plan is  probably the Shawnee/ Sunday River pass next year. I’m kinda afraid of the crowds there if all the epic pass holders move on.



Been skiing Cranmore more than I'd like this year. Honestly, they are doing a great job.

Hit Attitash yesterday (after it was obvious WC wasn't coming off wind hold) and had a blast but only because Moat was opened au naturel and Avenger over on Bear - though closed - was worth a few trips through the crusty powder. At least patrol isn't penalizing ducking ropes... yet...

I'll be at Wildcat Sat/Sun and hoping for _some_ remaining coverage down the middle. We'll see.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jan 19, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> ding ding ding!  vail decided to mandate an experimental, now obsolete (against omicron) vaccine on their employees, instead of waiting for the supreme court to strike it down.
> 
> fortunately there were plenty of other ski areas that didn't do this to their employees and they're looking pretty good now.  interesting that the areas that didn't force the vaccine mandate have close to normal snowmaking coverage and crews, while the corporate areas who fired or pressured their employees to resign now have skeleton crews and little snowmaking terrain open.  karma?


Oh, we have an anti-vaxxer.   Good time to take the Ignore feature out for a test drive.


----------



## machski (Jan 19, 2022)

Oh boy, Fail is finally failing on something at Mount Snow.  I get they didn't sign for the EB-5's, but they bought that as the package.









						Vail Resorts is threatening immigration status of foreign investors in Mount Snow project, Vermont regulators allege
					

Vermont regulators this month issued a cease-and-desist order to Vail Resorts, alleging that the Colorado-based ski giant is reneging on an agreement with roughly 30 immigrant investors that could …




					www-denverpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org


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## 2Planker (Jan 19, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Oh, we have an anti-vaxxer.   Good time to take the Ignore feature out for a test drive.


My AntiVaxx BIL just got out of the hospital after 23 days, 13 in the ICU
Home on O2, has Myocarditis, can barely walk up a flight of stairs, lost 30lbs, bigtime "covid fog" issues.
Finally admits that he prob should have got the Vaxx...


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

2Planker said:


> My AntiVaxx BIL just got out of the hospital after 23 days, 13 in the ICU
> Home on O2, has Myocarditis, can barely walk up a flight of stairs, lost 30lbs, bigtime "covid fog" issues.
> Finally admits that he prob should have got the Vaxx...


Wishingf him a speedy recovery.   The only thing that Vail has done right this season is the whole Vax mandate.   Heading up to Stowe for the day I think Saturday, should be interesting to see how things are going there.  Haven't gotten much mileage out of my Epic pass this year, so this will be interesting to say the least.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

The vax mandate has been great. Wildcat hasn’t blown snow in 3 weeks. I feel way more protected those dirty snowmakers aren’t allowed to work there. They would probably mixing the virus into the snow and  it would be all over the mountain. Give me a break, enough of this nonsense.


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## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The vax mandate has been great. Wildcat hasn’t blown snow in 3 weeks. I feel way more protected those dirty snowmakers aren’t allowed to work there. They would probably mixing the virus into the snow and  it would be all over the mountain. Give me a break, enough of this nonsense.


Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow...  So there goes your theory.   Perhaps, it is more to do with Vail's inflexibility of providing a living wage.  Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'd love to actually attribute this to their operational woes but the whole market is taking a beatdown the past couple weeks and bigly today



IDK... at 287 they're pretty close to their 52wk low of 261.  Wayyyy down from their 376 high.

I think some of it at least is due to the PR shitstorm they've been having.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow...  So there goes your theory.


when did crotched open?  how many trails did sunapee have open at christmas?  there goes your theory.



Bostonian said:


> Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.


some people were on the mountain throughout the pandemic and got the virus before the vaccines were available.  if vail followed the science, they would have recognized natural immunity.  but they didn't.  to the beancounters we're numbers, not people.  fortunately a lot of other ski areas didn't impose vaccine mandates so there were places for us to go.


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## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

The wildcat snowmakers are usually redneck 20 somethings from Berlin. I’m sure you probably work with white collar yuppies. Whole different crew. There is 7 ski areas in 45 minutes drive of the mwv, the only area hurting for snowmakers is wildcat/attitash. The science is saying that omnicron infects the vaccinated and unvaccinated the same. What benefit does a 20 something snowmakers  being vaccinated Have to running a ski area. None.
Ps I’m vaccinated and recently had covid. I just don’t get the unvaccinated hate. The playing field has changed with omnicron. Maybe you should follow the science


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow...  So there goes your theory.   Perhaps, it is more to do with Vail's inflexibility of providing a living wage.  Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.


I was specifically told by an employee of Vail (while I was in Vail earlier this year) that the lack of employee housing, people calling out sick from Covid, and the mandate has made it very hard to hire from an already limited pool of candidates. Only 60% to 65% of adults in the US have been vaccinated so that eliminates 35% to 40% of the working pool to hire from. I'm sure the lack of higher wages doesn't help either.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 19, 2022)

We cant even get mail on a regular basis..USPS is short staffed...when the hell has that ever happened...
We are becoming a 2nd world nation...


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## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

machski said:


> Oh boy, Fail is finally failing on something at Mount Snow.  I get they didn't sign for the EB-5's, but they bought that as the package.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So Vail is trying to payback some of the EB-5 investors. One of the requirements of the EB-5 program was the creation of some number of new jobs (can't remember the exact # but I believe it was more than 100 in the region) Highly doubt that actually happened for all of the investors regardless of who's job creation metric you use.

Guess I would rather see them paid back and try and stay by the EB-5 regs to some degree, which would be far better than the Jay/Burke/Quiros EB-5 debacle


----------



## ss20 (Jan 19, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> We cant even get mail on a regular basis..USPS is short staffed...when the hell has that ever happened...
> We are becoming a 2nd world nation...



Because...unemployment is low?  

When unemployment is one of your top economic metrics, abusing it's power as a statistic can seriously damage the economy.  Same as interest rates.  1% unemployment should not be a goal.  0% interest rates should not be the feds go-to in economic distress.


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## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> when did crotched open?  how many trails did sunapee have open at christmas?  there goes your theory.
> 
> 
> some people were on the mountain throughout the pandemic and got the virus before the vaccines were available.  if vail followed the science, they would have recognized natural immunity.  but they didn't.  to the beancounters we're numbers, not people.  fortunately a lot of other ski areas didn't impose vaccine mandates so there were places for us to go.


Crotched now has 20/26 trails open.  Once weather conditions were right for snowmaking, they caught up with other mountains their size (Wachusett, Pats Peak).  Sunapee is 43/67... So again try again   

All the scientific literature points to the fact that vaccines are far more effective than catching covid.  Having worked in one Boston's largest hospitals, the consensus has always been getting vaccinated is the best way to combat this.  

Next..


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> I was specifically told by an employee of Vail (while I was in Vail earlier this year) that the lack of employee housing, people calling out sick from Covid, and the mandate has made it very hard to hire from an already limited pool of candidates. Only 60% to 65% of adults in the US have been vaccinated so that eliminates 35% to 40% of the working pool to hire from. I'm sure the lack of higher wages doesn't help either.


I agree that the lack of employee housing, and people getting sick from covid had an impact.  However, it has been widely reported that only 5% of all previously employed people quit due to a covid vaccine mandate.  This jives with some of the numbers I saw where I work (3%)...


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## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Crotched now has 20/26 trails open.  Once weather conditions were right for snowmaking, they caught up with other mountains their size (Wachusett, Pats Peak).  Sunapee is 43/67... So again try again
> 
> All the scientific literature points to the fact that vaccines are far more effective than catching covid.  Having worked in one Boston's largest hospitals, the consensus has always been getting vaccinated is the best way to combat this.
> 
> Next..


My question is how were the others ahead of them before if they couldn’t make snow as crotched wasn’t?


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## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My question is how were the others ahead of them before if they couldn’t make snow as crotched wasn’t?


My hunch is that it had to do with Vail's terrible hiring process and poor wage rates.   I am sure they were pulling from other mountains they managed to get staff there.

Personally, if I were a Vail Exec, I would push for more local autonomy in recruiting, hiring and retention.  Doesn't help, when everything is routed back to Broomfield, CO...


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## Tonyr (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> I agree that the lack of employee housing, and people getting sick from covid had an impact.  However, it has been widely reported that only 5% of all previously employed people quit due to a covid vaccine mandate.  This jives with some of the numbers I saw where I work (3%)...


Agreed, although working at a resort is seasonal as well as a transient job. How many people just didn’t flat out apply because of the mandate? I have no idea as I'm just repeating what I heard but If you eliminate 4 out of 10 people just looking at the statistics of who is vaccined and who isn't I would assume it puts a strain on what is already a tough position to fill in the first place. I mean Starbucks just ditched their corporate vax mandate for what I believe was one of the same reasons, hiring issues.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

The question is what benefit does the mountain gain by making 20 yr old snowmakers be vaccinated? Also why does Stowe’s staff being vaccinated make you feel safer if your vaxxed boosted and I assume masking up? If you can still give it and get being vaccinated, what’s the difference, you’re protected. And if you are worried about overwhelming the hospital, maybe you should stay home as skiing is risky and could take another bed.
   The vail mandate nonsense is just virtue signaling. They played the woke card instead of playing the skiing card


----------



## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The question is what benefit does the mountain gain by making 20 yr old snowmakers be vaccinated? Also why does Stowe’s staff being vaccinated make you feel safer if your vaxxed boosted and I assume masking up? If you can still give it and get being vaccinated, what’s the difference, you’re protected. And if you are worried about overwhelming the hospital, maybe you should stay home as skiing is risky and could take another bed.
> The vail mandate nonsense is just virtue signaling. They played the woke card instead of playing the skiing card



I fully agree. Unfortunately though they have a sizable enough number of Epic Pass holders from metropolitan areas with a bunch of disposable income, who have been fully indoctrinated into the cult of woke-ism, and initially the woke likely made more "noise" that resonated with the higher ups in Broomfield than the non woke, who likely make up a much larger percentage of Epic passholders. The age old vocal minority making more noise than the silent majority scenario.

Will likely take a bunch of the silent minority "speaking" by clicking the button to get off auto-renew to get the proverbial pendulum swinging back towards the middle


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2022)

machski said:


> Oh boy, Fail is finally failing on something at Mount Snow.  I get they didn't sign for the EB-5's, but they bought that as the package.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that the last term Vermont probably ever wants to hear is “EB-5”.


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 19, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I fully agree. Unfortunately though they have a sizable enough number of Epic Pass holders from metropolitan areas with a bunch of disposable income, who have been fully indoctrinated into the cult of woke-ism, and initially the woke likely made more "noise" that resonated with the higher ups in Broomfield than the non woke, who likely make up a much larger percentage of Epic passholders. The age old vocal minority making more noise than the silent majority scenario.
> 
> Will likely take a bunch of the silent minority "speaking" by clicking the button to get off auto-renew to get the proverbial pendulum swinging back towards the middle



Woke-ism?  Absolute nonsense - Just step foot into some of the local hospitals and see what is going on with the unvaccinated and how they are clogging up the ICUs, and hospital beds in general to the point where they are cancelling elective surgery.  But, hey I am glad to see instead of responding with data, you decide to use dopey insults.   

Instead look at Dr. Jeremey Faust's Hospital Circuit Breaker, which monitors hospitals nationally for capacity issues.    I could care less if someone wants to remain unvaccinated, so be it - just keep them out of Boston Hospitals which are now cancelling cancer procedures because of selfish assholes who can't be bothered to do the right thing.





__





						COVID-19 Circuit Breaker Dashboard
					





					alexanderjxchen.github.io


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Woke-ism?  Absolute nonsense - Just step foot into some of the local hospitals and see what is going on with the unvaccinated and how they are clogging up the ICUs, and hospital beds in general to the point where they are cancelling elective surgery.  But, hey I am glad to see instead of responding with data, you decide to use dopey insults.
> 
> Instead look at Dr. Jeremey Faust's Hospital Circuit Breaker, which monitors hospitals nationally for capacity issues.    I could care less if someone wants to remain unvaccinated, so be it - just keep them out of Boston Hospitals which are now cancelling cancer procedures because of selfish assholes who can't be bothered to do the right thing.
> 
> ...


Cancer procedures are elective?
Also it’s “I couldn’t care less”. If you could care less then it means you care.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2022)

How about we all just give up on the vaccine talk any further.  After two years, that horse is dried up super glue at this point.   No one is going to change their opinion.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 19, 2022)

There is no 20 year old healthy enough to be a snowmaker clogging up a hospital bed from covid. There was a bunch of people in the er this last weekend from ski accidents because vail hasn’t made snow and can’t maintain their resorts at memorial Hospital in North Conway. How does a vaccine mandate for employees at a ski area make any difference besides making it harder to find employees?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Woke-ism?  Absolute nonsense - Just step foot into some of the local hospitals and see what is going on with the unvaccinated and how they are clogging up the ICUs, and hospital beds in general to the point where they are cancelling elective surgery.  But, hey I am glad to see instead of responding with data, you decide to use dopey insults.
> 
> Instead look at Dr. Jeremey Faust's Hospital Circuit Breaker, which monitors hospitals nationally for capacity issues.    I could care less if someone wants to remain unvaccinated, so be it - just keep them out of Boston Hospitals which are now cancelling cancer procedures because of selfish assholes who can't be bothered to do the right thing.
> 
> ...







__





						COVID-19 Response Reporting
					

Cumulative reports on Massachusetts COVID-19 cases, testing, and hospitalizations. Additional reports include nursing facility data, cases by city/town, and vaccination data.




					www.mass.gov
				




Please feel free to correct me if I am off-base on this.

Above is the current data from Mass.gov.

The average age for Covid fatalities is currently 74 (an age demographic with a VERY HIGH vaccinated and often boosted rate)The most new cases (and some of the least likely to have significant side effects is the 20-29 age demographic.

New cases, primarily Omicron it seems, appear now to be falling off of its peak spike 7-10 days ago.

Not all hospitalizations are purely due to Covid, as many, across all age demographics are people hospitalized for other reasons and find out they have Covid, but weren't aware that they had Covid when tested upon admission. 

Staffing, just like with so many other types of businesses, is an issue, some due to positive Covid tests and others due to failure to comply with employee vaccination mandates. General Covid fatigue among Frontline Healthcare workers is a factor as well.

Many ER crowding situations can often have a component based in people who realistically don't need to be in the ER for symptoms they think may (or may not) be attributed to Covid and they can't find a test to confirm it or not. Arguably as Omicron ramped up and it became apparent that it's affects were quite mild for most, public health officials and the media made this Omicron hysteria worse than it probably needed to be, thus over taxing many ER's the last roughly month. There certainly are still Delta cases out there, and those seem to be much more likely to be associated with the more severe side effects that may end up requiring hospitalization.

Most hospitals are "designed" to operate with a daily bed census in the 70-80% to maintain profitability.

Intuitively with the big spike in new cases with the Omicron wave one would expect to see/have seen a much greater spike in hospitalizations than we have seen, if Omicron did indeed have more virulence than it does.

The vaccinated do indeed fair better than the non vaccinated. It certainly can be debated how much affect/benefit the boosters have above and beyond the initial "fully vaccinated" status for reduction of severe side effects, especially for those say age 50 and below with limited to no co-morbidities. Throughout this entire pandemic the greatest number of deaths have been amongst those over 70 with an average of 4 or more co-morbities.

As someone who has a good friend who is currently being staged at Dana Farber for their both surgical and post surgical chemo treatments, I fully grasp the importance of what having to postpone procedures can mean


----------



## thebigo (Jan 19, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Crotched now has 20/26 trails open.  Once weather conditions were right for snowmaking, they caught up with other mountains their size (Wachusett, Pats Peak).  Sunapee is 43/67... So again try again


Crotched is closed two days a week with only three days of night skiing and no midnight madness due to staffing. Pats opened more than three weeks before crotched and is currently operating something around 30 hours more per week than crotched. I got no idea what percentage of Vail's staffing issues are due to mandates but comparing crotched to pats this year does not verify Vail's approach.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 19, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Cancer procedures are elective?
> Also it’s “I couldn’t care less”. If you could care less then it means you care.



One of my regular ski friends, who's an OB/GYN on Long Island, said that over the last month or so that roughly 2/3rds of her deliveries have been from Covid positive Mom's 

I fully get that the immune system status of a patient undergoing chemo for cancer treatment is likely going to be much different than of someone giving birth. 

Given that the most likely today to be properly wearing an actual fit tested N95 is our frontline healthcare workers, who if they're still working in most facilities these days are vaccinated, the risk to the healthcare worker and patient are about as minimized as you can get, while still providing needed care


----------



## abc (Jan 19, 2022)

drjeff said:


> once they loose someone, especially a new Epic passholder who isn't tied to a specific mountain because of geographic proximity to a residence or kids in a program, with all the other options out there now, they may be gone for years, if not for ever


Me! 



Bostonian said:


> Personally, if I were a Vail Exec, I would push for more local autonomy in recruiting, hiring and retention. Doesn't help, when everything is routed back to Broomfield, CO...


If I were a Vail Exec, I'd go look for another job.


----------



## abc (Jan 19, 2022)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Oh, we have an anti-vaxxer.   Good time to take the Ignore feature out for a test drive.


You'll love it! I did and never have to read his garbage!!!


----------



## abc (Jan 19, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> How about we all just give up on the vaccine talk any further.  After two years, that horse is dried up super glue at this point.   No one is going to change their opinion.


Nobody is going to change their position on vaccination.  It's also quite clear vaccine mandate is making the labor shortage worse. But that's being used as excuse for Vail's failing. That, makes Vail haters blood boil! 

Well, not the anti-vaccine people. They're perfectly willing to accept Vail's poor performance. They're still under the illusion Vail will do great if only the vaccine mandate hasn't been adopted.

It's those who're against vaccine mandate that are keeping on talking about vaccination!

(Funny how many other businesses continue to operate reasonably well even WITH vaccine mandate?)


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2022)

abc said:


> Nobody is going to change their position on vaccination.  It's also quite clear vaccine mandate is making the labor shortage worse. But that's being used as excuse for Vail's failing. That, makes Vail haters blood boil!
> 
> Well, not the anti-vaccine people. They're perfectly willing to accept Vail's poor performance. They're still under the illusion Vail will do great if only the vaccine mandate hasn't been adopted.
> 
> ...



So I take it you disagree with my suggestion and really still want to talk about vaccines?


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Cancer procedures are elective?
> Also it’s “I couldn’t care less”. If you could care less then it means you care.


Regarding cancer procedures being canceled - 

“The situation is so bad that it’s forcing hospital administrators to make heartbreaking choices to limit all but the most urgent surgeries and procedures. This extends even to some cancer surgeries, forcing doctors to weigh which tumors are growing faster and which slow enough to postpone care.

Dr. Ron Walls, Mass General Brigham’s chief operating officer, said hospitals are now fielding calls from patients “begging” to be put back on the list for surgery.”

Which is from 1/14’s globe:









						Hospitals postponing thousands of surgeries amid onslaught of COVID and other patients - The Boston Globe
					

The situation is so bad that it’s forcing hospital administrators to make heartbreaking choices to limit all but the most urgent surgeries and procedures.




					www.bostonglobe.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 20, 2022)

Can we stay on point here please?









						Have a complaint about Stevens Pass Ski Resort? The Washington Attorney General wants to know
					

Over 80 people have already made complaints about Stevens Pass Ski Resort to the Attorney General, according to a tweet from Bob Ferguson.



					www.king5.com


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> How about we all just give up on the vaccine talk any further.  After two years, that horse is dried up super glue at this point.   No one is going to change their opinion.


funny how you're subtly changing your tone now that the osha mandate you supported was found unconstitutional.  now omicron is blowing the lid off the whole thing.  but you had no skin in the game, so what do you care?  your job wasn't on the line.

vail will be on the wrong side of history.  fortunately we had other nh ski areas to go to that didn't want to dig into our medical history and control what was going into our bodies.  they treat their employees better.  happy employees give their customers a better product.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> funny how you're subtly changing your tone now that the osha mandate you supported was found unconstitutional.  now omicron is blowing the lid off the whole thing.  but you had no skin in the game, so what do you care?  your job wasn't on the line.
> 
> vail will be on the wrong side of history.  fortunately we had other nh ski areas to go to that didn't want to dig into our medical history and control what was going into our bodies.  they treat their employees better.  happy employees give their customers a better product.




Yeah, you got me Jon.  The OSHA decision turned me 

No, I just see the obvious in that people have their minds made up and after two years of discussion it's getting pretty boring to see people continue to go round and round.   Especially annoying are people like yourself who apparently signed up to a skiing forum with the only purpose of cramming their vaccine views down other's throats.

We get it Jon. You think Vail sucks because of their vaccine mandate.  Are you capable of talking about something else Vail sucks about?


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

On a more positive note, looks like Wildcat finally opened Upper Catapult and Upper Wildcat.


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> funny how you're subtly changing your tone now that the osha mandate you supported was found unconstitutional.  now omicron is blowing the lid off the whole thing.  but you had no skin in the game, so what do you care?  your job wasn't on the line.
> 
> vail will be on the wrong side of history.  fortunately we had other nh ski areas to go to that didn't want to dig into our medical history and control what was going into our bodies.  they treat their employees better.  happy employees give their customers a better product.


Nobody is digging into your medical history.  A simple card looking to see if you’re vaccinated or not isn’t the same as going into your Electronic Medical Record.  Lighten up Francis.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 20, 2022)

Ignore is basically Nah Nah I can’t hear you, That’s what little kids do. How do you know You’re right if you only listen to one side. I think the bluAnon people are just as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle
    I’m waiting for my answer Bostonian, what does the VAX mandate do for the Ski area besides making it harder To find employees?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Ignore is basically Nah Nah I can’t hear you, That’s what little kids do. How do you know You’re right if you only listen to one side. I think the bluAnon people are just as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle
> I’m waiting for my answer Bostonian, what does the VAX mandate do for the Ski area besides making it harder To find employees?



You do realize that you are not going to change Bostonian's opinions and he isn't going to change yours yes?


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Ignore is basically Nah Nah I can’t hear you, That’s what little kids do. How do you know You’re right if you only listen to one side. I think the bluAnon people are just as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle
> I’m waiting for my answer Bostonian, what does the VAX mandate do for the Ski area besides making it harder To find employees?


How cute, bluanon, so damn original.  

And perhaps if you read my answer earlier, you would see that a vax mandate, reduces the influx of critically sick individuals overwhelming the hospitals in the area.  I get it you’re a “my freedom and my rights” guy … so here is the open market - you don’t like that Vail has a vax mandate, take your $$$ elsewhere.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

To deflect away from VaxxWarz:

Mike Barnicle had it right.  This was a Boston Globe OpEd and my favorite New Hampshire slam. 


			Vermont vs. New Hampshire
		




> Vermont is a beautiful place, a postcard. New Hampshire looks like Arkansas with snow.



So Vail has no interest in the North Conway ski areas.   They’re Arkansas with snow.  LOL.  Sunapee is at least on the way to Vermont and is a Boston day trip area.  I drove past it thousands of times headed to Vermont and just skied it for the first time this year.  Ditto Crotched as a Boston day trip ski area like the mighty Wa-Wachusett.


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> To deflect away from VaxxWarz:
> 
> Mike Barnicle had it right.  This was a Boston Globe OpEd and my favorite New Hampshire slam.
> 
> ...


Personally, I like NH over Vermont for scenic beauty.  I do agree that at the moment, it seems Vail could care less about North Conway.  For them it’s all about Okemo and Stowe, from a brand perspective.  That sucks for those of us who love NH and visit often.  I’m hoping the complaints they receive will make them re-analyze their business model for the northeast.  Otherwise, I would be happy if they unloaded Attitash and Wildcat to an owner who actually cares about skiing in NH.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 20, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> And perhaps if you read my answer earlier, you would see that a vax mandate, reduces the influx of critically sick individuals overwhelming the hospitals in the area.  I get it you’re a “my freedom and my rights” guy … so here is the open market - you don’t like that Vail has a vax mandate, take your $$$ elsewhere.


the hospital in the mt. washington valley wasn't overwhelmed prior to the vaccine mandate.  i'm not saying the mandate caused the cases to spike up here, but it certainly didn't reduce them!

but you're right - it's an open market, and other ski area owners weren't authoritarian like vail.  fortunately we have much better ski area owners to work for in the valley.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 20, 2022)

My wife works in the local hospital, main reason for overcrowding right now is the lack of beds in nursing homes. They keep getting old people and have no where to place them. It’s the same thing at nursing homes and ski areas, if you can find somebody willing to do a shitty Job for low pay, you try your best to retain them.


----------



## TyWebb (Jan 20, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow...  So there goes your theory.   Perhaps, it is more to do with Vail's inflexibility of providing a living wage.  Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.



It's a combination of both the wages being offered and the vax mandate.

Vail should have more local input to get the feel for what each mountains market is offering ie wages.  Reality is to sit outside in the cold all day they should be offering more $$ per hour thn the local DD or grocery store for arguments sake.  It's an extremely competitive environment for employees and Vail has not adjusted.  Vail then goes and complicates it even further by not realizing that there are many employable individuals who have no desire to be forced to put experimental medicine into their body ... especially if something goes wrong and there is no recourse because the federal government protected the big pharma companies


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> They’re Arkansas with snow.



Poor Arkansas.  The Northwest section is very nice.  Really liked Eureka Springs.


----------



## machski (Jan 20, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Crotched now has 20/26 trails open.  Once weather conditions were right for snowmaking, they caught up with other mountains their size (Wachusett, Pats Peak).  Sunapee is 43/67... So again try again
> 
> All the scientific literature points to the fact that vaccines are far more effective than catching covid.  Having worked in one Boston's largest hospitals, the consensus has always been getting vaccinated is the best way to combat this.
> 
> Next..


Well, let's see.  Pat's and Wachusett didn't chop off two full days and at least 2 nights off their operational calendars either.  Crotched did, so I would imagine that also indicates snowmakers are doubling as lift ops.  Those two closed days for skiing, they have been blowing snow on.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 20, 2022)

I am getting sick of the Vax talk, IMO lets try to keep the politics out of this forum.  My view is that even if Vail did not have a vax requirement, the still would be doing just as bad operationally as they are now with the vax requirement.  All this Vax talk is a tiny issue when it comes to how much Vail sucks


----------



## FBGM (Jan 20, 2022)

Hey this is about how Vail sucks now how Covid sucks. 

Back to Vail bashing now!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 20, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> How cute, bluanon, so damn original.
> 
> And perhaps if you read my answer earlier, you would see that a vax mandate, reduces the influx of critically sick individuals overwhelming the hospitals in the area.  I get it you’re a “my freedom and my rights” guy … so here is the open market - you don’t like that Vail has a vax mandate, take your $$$ elsewhere.



Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Is it also fair to say that in some instances, the Vaxx mandate has made the work force supply tighter for some hospitals, which is also having an affect on the number of beds available for those who are sick enough to require hospitalization?  

And one can certainly make the case that based on what those choosing to not comply with the Vaxx mandate often say, they had Covid in the past (potentially even acquired while they were working early on in the pandemic) and as such as the science seems to show, have just as much, if not more immunity (depending on who's studies you're reading) to Covid than someone who may have just been vaxxed and not had Covid? 

Ultimately with the healthcare facilities and the mandate status it's all tied to federal healthcare dollars coming into the facilities, and the federal government telling those facilities that if their employees aren't vaxxed, the Federal Government won't be sending the checks to the healthcare facilities for treatment on people who have federally sponsored health insurance plans

There are many peices of this puzzle that just don't make much logical sense these days from multiple viewpoints on the topic.

As for how the Vaxx mandate had affected Vail (to try and pivot somewhat back on topic), It seems that it has affected certain jobs more than others, and those jobs, while maybe not the greatest numbers in terms of total employees, are often of very high significance for day to day resort operations. Add in the tight available employee market now (again for NUMEROUS reasons) and you help create the situation that Vail is in, and maybe on the back side of this, from a management standpoint, they will need to seriously think about how they're compensating some of their employees, since while aside from their hourly rate, they do have some decent benefits for employees, which may not be quite as attractive for some as seeing more in their hourly rate.  Heck, I know in my own business, that as the owner, I see how much extra $$ the benefits paid to my employees add up to (and will remind them of that) , but often it seems as if paying the equivalent extra per hour that the benfits add up to over the course of a year, might be more appreciated than the benefits themself.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 20, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The question is what benefit does the mountain gain by making 20 yr old snowmakers be vaccinated? Also why does Stowe’s staff being vaccinated make you feel safer if your vaxxed boosted and I assume masking up? If you can still give it and get being vaccinated, what’s the difference, you’re protected. And if you are worried about overwhelming the hospital, maybe you should stay home as skiing is risky and could take another bed.
> The vail mandate nonsense is just virtue signaling. They played the woke card instead of playing the skiing card


If your snowmaking crew gets stay-at-home ordered - or worse, all get sick - mid season, you're up shit creek. Same with snowcat operators if you have two shifts or swap cats or share a break/locker room. It is absolutely a risk, even moreso if you have a bunch of rookies and one senior guy to run the pumps and compressors and valves - lose that senior guy and you're sunk for seven days (or at best gutting one shift to cover the missing shift.) 

Unvaccinated employees are absolutely a bigger risk because they're more likely to get sick, more likely to transmit the virus, more likely not to have been masking/being generally responsible and so transmitted it to more staff, more likely to be out long term, more likely to be hospitalized. Requiring vaccinations is one of the very few things Vail's done right.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> To deflect away from VaxxWarz:
> 
> Mike Barnicle had it right.  This was a Boston Globe OpEd and my favorite New Hampshire slam.
> 
> ...


Another way to look at it is that Vermont has the Boston AND NYC markets.  NH just has Boston.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

I don’t think you want to get the true story since it conflicts with your narrative.  This is about collapsing the public health system in the United States.  If we had vaccinated everyone, it wouldn’t have happened.  You don’t want to have a serious medical problem right now.  You’ll get third world-level care.  From almost Killingly, your real hospitals are, what, UMass Medical, RI Hospital, and Hartford Hospital & St Francis?   Maybe Bay State.  If you have a stroke and need a clot buster in a hurry, you’re going to be crapping into an adult diaper for the rest of your life. 


drjeff said:


> Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this


----------



## ss20 (Jan 20, 2022)

I don't get the "Vail requires employees to be vaxxed so that's why they're down on staff" argument.  Powdr resorts also require vax and they're hurting but not as bad as Vail.  Same with the few Alterra resorts I spot checked.  

Vail just sucks to work for.  Period.  In an industry that overall sucks to work in, they suck the hardest.  No one...and I mean literally no one I've talked to... has enjoyed their time working under Vail.  My favorite story is an instructor who taught at Okemo.  He taught part-time and worked in the airline industry part-time.  At first he loved it since he got an Epic pass for free and then could fly wherever he wanted for cheap/free.  He literally had the perfect setup.  I believe he lasted two seasons of Vail-owned Okemo.  He had been there maybe 7ish years total.  He said class sizes doubled and they'd no longer give out assistants to large kids classes... and working for less pay...


----------



## abc (Jan 20, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> If your snowmaking crew gets stay-at-home ordered - or worse, all get sick - mid season, you're up shit creek. Same with snowcat operators if you have two shifts or swap cats or share a break/locker room. It is absolutely a risk, even moreso if you have a bunch of rookies and one senior guy to run the pumps and compressors and valves - lose that senior guy and you're sunk for seven days (or at best gutting one shift to cover the missing shift.)
> 
> Unvaccinated employees are absolutely a bigger risk because they're more likely to get sick, more likely to transmit the virus, more likely not to have been masking/being generally responsible and so transmitted it to more staff, more likely to be out long term, more likely to be hospitalized. Requiring vaccinations is one of the very few things Vail's done right.


What you described makes sense before Omicron (which both infects vaccinated people just as well AND are relatively mild in symptoms). And before the Supreme Court shut down the administration's mandate on large employers. 

Vail made a sensible decision back in November. But that decision no longer make sense now. 

Things had moved on. Vail have not kept up. (and nor did you, if I may say so)


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Another way to look at it is that Vermont has the Boston AND NYC markets.  NH just has Boston.


I was just unsuccessfully trolling the thread to get it off the vaccine topic.  I lived in Portsmouth for a decade and worked in the NH border towns for 20 years.  My first turns at age 6 in lace boots and cable bindings were at Cranmore.  I understand the New Hampshire value proposition.  Personally, I don’t think Vail cares about North Conway so the two ski areas are under a “don’t lose too much money this year” edict.   As a business, Vail cares about $ per day skier yield.  They don’t see a penny from North Conway lodging.   The customer base isn’t spending big on-mountain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I was just unsuccessfully trolling the thread to get it off the vaccine topic.  I lived in Portsmouth for a decade and worked in the NH border towns for 20 years.  My first turns at age 6 in lace boots and cable bindings were at Cranmore.  I understand the New Hampshire value proposition.  Personally, I don’t think Vail cares about North Conway so the two ski areas are under a “don’t lose too much money this year” edict.   As a business, Vail cares about $ per day skier yield.  They don’t see a penny from North Conway lodging.   The customer base isn’t spending big on-mountain.



I think you are exactly right.  Vail has two categories.

1.  The cash cow acquisitions
2.  The market defense acquisitions

New Hampshire and I suspect many of the mid Atlantic properties were market defense acquisitions.  They have no interest in really growing the business at those areas.  They just win by not having people buy passes elsewhere.  Attitash is a perfect example.  It had one of the busiest summer businesses of any ski area in the East.  They all but mothballed the place last summer. 

I'd be livid if I lived in areas in the Mid Atlantic that basically are a Vail monopoly.  At least in NH we have options.  The Wildcat skiers will move over to Cannon; the Attitash skiers head over to Bretton Woods or Cranmore; Sunapee skiers to Ragged, Loon or Gunstock and Crotched skiers Pats.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think you are exactly right.  Vail has two categories.
> 
> 1.  The cash cow acquisitions
> 2.  The market defense acquisitions
> ...


I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market.  The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore.  Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat.  I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 20, 2022)

ss20 said:


> My favorite story is an instructor who taught at Okemo.  He taught part-time and worked in the airline industry part-time.  At first he loved it since he got an Epic pass for free and then could fly wherever he wanted for cheap/free.  He literally had the perfect setup.  I believe he lasted two seasons of Vail-owned Okemo.  He had been there maybe 7ish years total.  He said class sizes doubled and they'd no longer give out assistants to large kids classes... and working for less pay...



My firsthand part-timer perspective: things are mixed. Class sizes at my mountain have gone way down (because bus trips full of mostly first-timers and beginners have all but stopped since March 2020.) I teach a lot more private lessons - whereas in the past that typically meant a solo adult with a little experience and a fair amount of money who wanted individual attention to get better, now a private may mean a child, or two children, or a family, or who knows. Private lessons are actively promoted by the mountain as the way to go for anyone who's better than beginner level - they're not really doing intermediate-and-above level group lessons, iirc. So if you're not a total newbie/fresh Level I instructor, you're probably getting more privates. I sure am. To be honest, the tips I'm getting are much, much better because the clientele is more people who can afford to spend on private lessons for their kids (or themselves) instead of throwing them in groups.
There's a lot less instructors now, especially this year, for reasons which are well-covered in this thread. It feels a bit Left Behindish around the ski school sometimes but those of us there are doing the best we can for each other and those we teach.
The "assistants" deal, as far as I understand, had to do with Vail's refusal to hire teenagers. That really hurts staffing in the near-term - the teenagers really were a big part of making the kids program run smoothly without ever getting on the snow - and in the longer-term by shutting off a conduit by which youth skiers become young instructors. I believe that policy has been modified now.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market.  The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore.  Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat.  I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.



It would appear in general that US society cares far less about antitrust laws than two decades ago.  Tons of consolidation across many industries that really limit competition and create monopolies.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 20, 2022)

Met plenty of people from NH at Stowe this week..


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Washington Attorney General Wants To Know If You Have Complaints About Stevens Pass
					

Do you have a complaint about Stevens Pass Ski Resort…Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson wants to hear from you.  King5 reports Ferguson’s office has received over 80 complaints a…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think you are exactly right.  Vail has two categories.
> 
> 1.  The cash cow acquisitions
> 2.  The market defense acquisitions
> ...


Nyberg killed the summer business at Killington.  He had a contractual obligation to run a lift with the lease on the land but it was otherwise tumbleweeds.  It really hurt all the businesses in town.  In the case of Vail, it’s kind of ironic.  At the moment, they’re really busy in the summer.  My stepdaughter manages a business in the village.  They had a very good summer and fall.  I’m a salt water guy but northern New England does way more summer tourist business than winter ski business.  The ubiquitous “This car climbed Mount Washington” bumper sticker.


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 20, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this.
> 
> Is it also fair to say that in some instances, the Vaxx mandate has made the work force supply tighter for some hospitals, which is also having an affect on the number of beds available for those who are sick enough to require hospitalization?
> 
> ...


Going to try to respond paragraph by paragraph:

Speaking specifically for Mass General Brigham, where I worked up until November before accepting a job outside the system, they terminated 458 employees out of 80,000, which is .5% of the entire workforce. The vax mandate  didn’t have an impact on the workforce shortage.   This has been reported in the Boston Business Journal and other reputable sources.  In fact before accepting the position I currently am in, I was working with my staff to get them vaccinated to ensure there wasn’t any lapses.  Furthermore I also did this with the flu vaccine, which is mandated too. 

As for having Covid in the past, it has been documented by NIH funded studies, that the level immunity is not as robust as receiving the vaccines. There is a false sense of security swirling around those who previously contracted COVID thinking their immune to it.  That isn’t the case as colleagues have seen the same patients who were not vaccinated multiple times for separate Covid infections. There is no reputable board certified study that states that Covid immunity by catching it is more robust than being vaccinated. 

Hospitals make their money through elective surgery.  The federal money that flows in is for research (the area I was working in), which can support physicians salaries - however, only for the work they conduct directly with the research funds.  Elective surgery, which is not “optional” surgery, accounts for approximately $48-64 billion of net income to hospitals.  This is paid through private insurers, which accounts for 66% of all coverage nationally.  Take away elective surgery, you remove the cash cow that hospitals use to generate net income. 

We can pivot back to vail; however, again based off of national trend numbers for employment, Vail’s poor HR process (the app for hiring and etc), and the lack of a fair wage impacts them greater than just a vax policy.  The thing businesses love to cut down are on the fringe benefit costs. 

Ultimately Vail’s poor management, lack of capital investment (in NH - see Attitash),  lack of HR support, and budget trimming actions (shorter seasons/snow making) have impacted the product.  I agree you cannot run an eastern ski area as you would out in Colorado.  However, the vaccine talk is a red herring argument.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 20, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't get the "Vail requires employees to be vaxxed so that's why they're down on staff" argument.  Powdr resorts also require vax and they're hurting but not as bad as Vail.  Same with the few Alterra resorts I spot checked.
> 
> *Vail just sucks to work for*.  Period.  In an industry that overall sucks to work in, they suck the hardest.  No one...and I mean literally no one I've talked to... has enjoyed their time working under Vail.  My favorite story is an instructor who taught at Okemo.  He taught part-time and worked in the airline industry part-time.  At first he loved it since he got an Epic pass for free and then could fly wherever he wanted for cheap/free.  He literally had the perfect setup.  I believe he lasted two seasons of Vail-owned Okemo.  He had been there maybe 7ish years total.  He said class sizes doubled and they'd no longer give out assistants to large kids classes... and working for less pay...


I've been working as a Patroller since 1982. 6 different places in VT, NH & ME, all well known resorts....
Never in my life have I seen such utter incompetence.  GM who knows absolutely nothing about Liability and Risk Management.
Minimal training, No annual recerts.
Rag Tag fixes held together w/ Duct Tape - Not kidding here
Staff Retention of less than 25% from last year. - YIKES

It was very hard for me to walk away after 40 years, BUT I didn't want to be a part of an organization that cares so little about it employees.
 It wasn't about the $$$, I work 30-40 days for only my pass. Comes out to about $15 for a 10 hour day


----------



## Great Bear (Jan 20, 2022)

Not vail specific but I wonder if this ultra-cheap pass pricing model also affects employment at the mountains?  When passes were higher priced, I imagine they were a pretty big perk to an employee.  Now you can buy an Epic base or Ikon base pass for something like $600 if you buy early bird, so that component is much less of an incentive.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 20, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> Not vail specific but I wonder if this ultra-cheap pass pricing model also affects employment at the mountains?  When passes were higher priced, I imagine they were a pretty big perk to an employee.  Now you can buy an Epic base or Ikon base pass for something like $600 if you buy early bird, so that component is much less of an incentive.



Yes, this is a key issue a lot of people seem to forget. 

My post from September, 2021 on ski area staffing-



> It's been talked about ad nauseum here already... but higher wages and cheaper housing is only half the solution (if that). Raise wages and higher housing costs will follow. Destination resorts packing 4-8 employees sharing bedrooms in 1000sq ft condos also isn't conducive to long-term employment. The resorts can help by raising wages and adding employee housing, but there's other factors.
> 
> First, the cheap season pass. There's no point in working at a ski area part-time if the pass price is only a few hundred $$$. Back in the 00s when a season pass to a destination mountain was easily $1,000+, it made financial sense to work for the ski resort and get that expensive pass for free. Now you're better off bussing tables, tending bar, or doing whatever else in the resort town and dropping $500 to buy the season pass yourself. In most places you'll get paid better and you can ski during the day and work at night.
> 
> ...



So it's a ton of issues.  People who just say "oh build more affordable housing" or "pay lifties $25/hr" are not seeing the whole picture.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 20, 2022)

Not sure if this group is ready to hear this, but per Wildcat's web cam... they are blowing snow...


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 20, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Not sure if this group is ready to hear this, but per Wildcat's web cam... they are blowing snow...


Must have hired a couple guys.....  ZERO snowmaking over the last 2 weeks w/ plenty of opportunities.

Will give my business to BW tmrw and Shawnee/SR on Sunday


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 20, 2022)

Bostonian said:


> Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow...  So there goes your theory.   Perhaps, it is more to do with Vail's inflexibility of providing a living wage.  Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.



When you are already drastically shortstaffed to begin with, you can't afford to lose 1 percent of your staff, especially if it's in critical departments


----------



## Mainer (Jan 20, 2022)

I was starting to think wildcat wasn’t going to blow anymore snow this year. Must have borrowed snowmakers from another resort.  They are close to having 2 top to bottom snowmaking runs for February. Way to get after it.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 20, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> If your snowmaking crew gets stay-at-home ordered - or worse, all get sick - mid season, you're up shit creek. Same with snowcat operators if you have two shifts or swap cats or share a break/locker room. It is absolutely a risk, even moreso if you have a bunch of rookies and one senior guy to run the pumps and compressors and valves - lose that senior guy and you're sunk for seven days (or at best gutting one shift to cover the missing shift.)
> 
> Unvaccinated employees are absolutely a bigger risk because they're more likely to get sick, more likely to transmit the virus, more likely not to have been masking/being generally responsible and so transmitted it to more staff, more likely to be out long term, more likely to be hospitalized. Requiring vaccinations is one of the very few things Vail's done right.



The Mandate worked really well for Killington who lost 80 +employees a week or two ago.  Omicron is getting you weather you're vaccinated or not.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 20, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I was starting to think wildcat wasn’t going to blow anymore snow this year. Must have borrowed snowmakers from another resort.  They are close to having 2 top to bottom snowmaking runs for February. Way to get after it.


With their major resorts being about done, maybe they are borrowing staff from other resorts?


----------



## machski (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market.  The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore.  Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat.  I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.


Well, on the ASC front, I think you have to take their entire Northeast presence into account back then.  Beyond the 4 NH's, they had SR, SL, SB, K/Pico and Mount Snow.  That is a huge fraction of the New England skier visits back then and NO ONE came close back then.  Flash ahead to today, Vail competes against Alterra with 2 owned resorts in VT and 4 other partners across VT/NH/ME, which include the largest skier visit areas in each state.  Plus, Boyne is very strong in ME/NH, now owning 4 resorts, 3 of which tie onto Ikon.  Not the same dynamic.  I am still shocked ASC only had to shed Cranmore and WV back then to satisfy DOJ, they were the smallest skier visit resorts in the eastern portfolio back then.

As to Vail, their resorts in VT are all in the top 6 of most visited resorts in state.  Since a lot of draw is off the NYC area plus Boston, much of those visits are overnight types.  Their NH owned properties have a much larger fraction of pure day trippers and really only draw off Boston metro.  It appears they are following the money trail for now anyway.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 20, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, on the ASC front, I think you have to take their entire Northeast presence into account back then.  Beyond the 4 NH's, they had SR, SL, SB, K/Pico and Mount Snow.  That is a huge fraction of the New England skier visits back then and NO ONE came close back then.  Flash ahead to today, Vail competes against Alterra with 2 owned resorts in VT and 4 other partners across VT/NH/ME, which include the largest skier visit areas in each state.  Plus, Boyne is very strong in ME/NH, now owning 4 resorts, 3 of which tie onto Ikon.  Not the same dynamic.  I am still shocked ASC only had to shed Cranmore and WV back then to satisfy DOJ, they were the smallest skier visit resorts in the eastern portfolio back then.
> 
> As to Vail, their resorts in VT are all in the top 6 of most visited resorts in state.  Since a lot of draw is off the NYC area plus Boston, much of those visits are overnight types.  Their NH owned properties have a much larger fraction of pure day trippers and really only draw off Boston metro.  It appears they are following the money trail for now anyway.


Waterville had a lot more skier visits than Attitash back in those days.  Back then Waterville was a clear top 2 resort in NH with Loon.  Attitash had only developed half of Bear Peak at that point.  I bet the Grand Summit under construction at the time and other developable real estate is why ASC kept Attitash over Waterville.  Or Les just wanted to hold onto Attitash because it was the second resort he owned after Sunday River.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 20, 2022)

kendo said:


> Have to call or email them:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! As I suspected they were NOT set to auto renew.

But, no one can send me an email confirming that and you cant change in your acct online...sooooooo shady.

I can only get an email confirming non-renew status by emailing corporate and asking for one. 

Its times like these I'm glad I'm an attorney whose best friend from college is a lawyer in Colorado...because under the agreement we all accepted all disputes are handled in Colorado, applying Colorado law.  

I will update when I get the email from corporate.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market.  The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore.  Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat.  I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.


it is weird because the governor's family owns Waterville Valley and those cheap epic passes must have kept some folks from buying that $1000 adult season tix that comes with a free child pass. 

I know because was one of those people.


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 20, 2022)

Funny story, I was at Okemo yesterday and asked for a couple little Okemo helmet stickers for my kids, the ones you usually get for free everywhere.

The woman came back and said they didn't have any Okemo stickers but had an "epic" sticker I could put on my truck and  offered me that.

I was very polite because I don't give people doing their jobs a hard time. I just kind of chuckled and politely said "no thanks, no offense but  I don't want to advertise for Vail".

The woman looked me dead in the eye and said " no worries we totally understand"  and chuckled a little bit herself.

She was very nice and helped me find another thing I needed but that exchange told me the passholders aren't the only ones that dislike Vail.


----------



## kendo (Jan 20, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Thanks! As I suspected they were NOT set to auto renew.
> 
> But, no one can send me an email confirming that and you cant change in your acct online...sooooooo shady.
> 
> ...



No worries.  You can confirm online if your account is set to Auto Renew (or if you declined Auto Renew) when you last ordered, by following these steps:






						PSA - How to cancel your EPIC Pass auto renewal
					

If you selected auto-renew on your Epic Pass and you want to opt out for 22/23, you have to call or email to cancel.  There's no easy option to cancel within your Epic account.  Document your communications with Epic as there will likely be snafu's, and not in your favor.     Update 3/21/22...




					forums.alpinezone.com


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I was just unsuccessfully trolling the thread to get it off the vaccine topic.  I lived in Portsmouth for a decade and worked in the NH border towns for 20 years.  My first turns at age 6 in lace boots and cable bindings were at Cranmore.  I understand the New Hampshire value proposition.  Personally, I don’t think Vail cares about North Conway so the two ski areas are under a “don’t lose too much money this year” edict.   As a business, Vail cares about $ per day skier yield.  They don’t see a penny from North Conway lodging.   The customer base isn’t spending big on-mountain.


QUIET!!! they'll buy North Conway next!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Update:  https://denver.cbslocal.com/2022/01...ng-vail-resorts-hire-more-workers-pay-better/


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 20, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> Funny story, I was at Okemo yesterday and asked for a couple little Okemo helmet stickers for my kids, the ones you usually get for free everywhere.
> 
> The woman came back and said they didn't have any Okemo stickers but had an "epic" sticker I could put on my truck and  offered me that.
> 
> ...


Wildcat Urinal & toilet bowls had the Epic stickers on/in them...


----------



## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 20, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Wildcat Urinal & toilet bowls had the Epic stickers on/in them...


great place for them!


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 20, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> great place for them!



Best sticker on Wildcat is along the Tomcat lift


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Best sticker on Wildcat is along the Tomcat lift
> 
> View attachment 52788


There is only one?


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> Waterville had a lot more skier visits than Attitash back in those days.  Back then Waterville was a clear top 2 resort in NH with Loon.  Attitash had only developed half of Bear Peak at that point.  I bet the Grand Summit under construction at the time and other developable real estate is why ASC kept Attitash over Waterville.  Or Les just wanted to hold onto Attitash because it was the second resort he owned after Sunday River.


I’m not that familiar but aren’t Loon and Waterville always the top 2 for skier visits?   It helps being on a real road.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I’m not that familiar but aren’t Loon and Waterville always the top 2 for skier visits?   It helps being on a real road.



If I had to guess the current ranking of top 3 by skier visits it is probably

Loon
Sunapee
Bretton Woods


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> If I had to guess the current ranking of top 3 by skier visits it is probably
> 
> Loon
> Sunapee
> Bretton Woods


Bretton Woods?   I’ve never been there.  Do Boston day trippers really go that far?   I’ve been Vermont-oriented for so long that I’m clueless.  Sunapee was bigger than I was expecting when I was there in December but that’s a very limited number of acres to be #2.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 20, 2022)

2Planker said:


> My AntiVaxx BIL just got out of the hospital after 23 days, 13 in the ICU
> Home on O2, has Myocarditis, can barely walk up a flight of stairs, lost 30lbs, bigtime "covid fog" issues.
> Finally admits that he prob should have got the Vaxx...


So


pinion247 said:


> Best sticker on Wildcat is along the Tomcat lift
> 
> View attachment 52788


I was on the LC triple at Attitash last weekend.  My six year old says "Dad, what does Fuck Vail mean?
My five year old.  "fuck vail, fuck vail, fuck vail".  Came into the house and kept saying that.  Mom was not impressed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> Bretton Woods?   I’ve never been there.  Do Boston day trippers really go that far?   I’ve been Vermont-oriented for so long that I’m clueless.  Sunapee was bigger than I was expecting when I was there in December but that’s a very limited number of acres to be #2.



Bretton Woods is only about 15 minutes past Cannon, so yes Boston day trip folks head there and they have a fair amount of condos plus the Mt Washington Valley to draw from.

Agreed that Sunapee is pretty small acreage, but that is the case for basically all of NH.  Bretton Woods is the largest ski area in the state and is only about 450 acres of terrain.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 20, 2022)

This thread... is like an 8 song playlist that's been on constant shuffle-repeat for months. And I can't seem to stop following it


----------



## boston_e (Jan 20, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> The Mandate worked really well for Killington who lost 80 +employees a week or two ago.  Omicron is getting you weather you're vaccinated or not.


Had they not had the mandate, they likely would have lost more employees and many of the 80 affected would have been out for longer.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> If I had to guess the current ranking of top 3 by skier visits it is probably
> 
> Loon
> Sunapee
> Bretton Woods


Interesting topic. If I had to guess:

Loon undoubtedly #1, likely approaching 2x anywhere else.
Bretton woods #2, they do big crowds and have taken a good chunk of the attitash days
Cannon #3, always surprisingly well attended midweek with the free senior days
Sunapee #4, feels busy but not sure if that is because of the more limited terrain
Gunstock #5, also feels busy and does a good night business
Waterville - I have no idea, only skied there as an adult a few late season days

I would guess cannon, sunapee and gunstock numbers are available.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Oddly, I wouldn't sleep on Pats Peak.  That place is an absolute factory.  We race there Wednesday nights and it is completely slammed.  It would not surprise me if they are in the top 5.  Between after school programs, youth ski racing and 4 nights of adult race league they truly max the place out 7 days a week.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 20, 2022)

abc said:


> What you described makes sense before Omicron (which both infects vaccinated people just as well AND are relatively mild in symptoms). And before the Supreme Court shut down the administration's mandate on large employers.
> 
> Vail made a sensible decision back in November. But that decision no longer make sense now.
> 
> Things had moved on. Vail have not kept up. (and nor did you, if I may say so)


Kindly stop lying about Omichron's severity and vaccine effectiveness.  https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00056-3/fulltext "...meta-analysis of neutralization studies found that vaccine effectiveness curtailed to around 40% against symptoms and 80% against severe disease; however, booster vaccinations appear to have efficacies of 86% and 98%, respectively." - https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...her-than-an-increase-in-transmissibility.aspx 

You're also assuming that only Omicron is circulating - though it's predominant, it's not the only variant and may not be the last variant.

I'm also not going to continue this topic on this thread - Vail's driven off enough workers through management, pay, and working conditions that their vaccine policy is responsible for only a small portion of applications turned down or not submitted. I applaud them for continuing - for once - to do the right thing for their employees and guests, and since this thread is about the many ways Vail sucks, it's not really fitting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Not sure if this was posted...









						Vail Resorts offers $13M to settle class action lawsuits
					

Vail Resorts has extended a $13.1 million offer to settle five wage and labor lawsuits filed in California, a step that could have implications for a similar lawsuit filed in Colorado and for anyone who…




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 20, 2022)

Likewi


2Planker said:


> I've been working as a Patroller since 1982. 6 different places in VT, NH & ME, all well known resorts....
> Never in my life have I seen such utter incompetence.  GM who knows absolutely nothing about Liability and Risk Management.
> Minimal training, No annual recerts.
> Rag Tag fixes held together w/ Duct Tape - Not kidding here
> ...


yikes is right. I think this post says it all!!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 20, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> So
> 
> I was on the LC triple at Attitash last weekend.  My six year old says "Dad, what does Fuck Vail mean?
> My five year old.  "fuck vail, fuck vail, fuck vail".  Came into the house and kept saying that.  Mom was not impressed.


OMG this is amazing


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Bretton Woods is only about 15 minutes past Cannon, so yes Boston day trip folks head there and they have a fair amount of condos plus the Mt Washington Valley to draw from.
> 
> Agreed that Sunapee is pretty small acreage, but that is the case for basically all of NH.  Bretton Woods is the largest ski area in the state and is only about 450 acres of terrain.



We hiked Bretton Woods this summer. I would add that the terrain looks fairly mellow. The vert from the top is around 1500 feet and the tree skiing looked pretty good. Omni built a new lodge at the top of Bretton Woods and it's absolutely beautiful so is the hotel next to the resort. I would say that BW is the Deer Valley or Beaver Creek of New Hampshire skiing.


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 20, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> We hiked Bretton Woods this summer. I would add that the terrain looks fairly mellow. The vert from the top is around 1500 feet and the tree skiing looked pretty good. Omni built a new lodge at the top of Bretton Woods and it's absolutely beautiful so is the hotel next to the resort. I would say that BW is the Deer Valley or Beaver Creek of New Hampshire skiing.



The tree skiing is mostly fairly easygoing low-angle good times. I missed out on the Stickney Glades when I was up there last year, which bummed me out - I've yet to have that T-bar be running while I'm up there.


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 20, 2022)

Looking at newenglandskihistory.com, it has Waterville's attendance numbers up to 15/16, but that season is an outlier for how bad it was so I will use 14/15 as a baseline for comparison, but Bretton Woods is not listed for 14/15, so I'm using its numbers from 10/11.  I know this is not perfect science.  Today I bet Pats Peak beats Waterville as well.

14/15 Season Attendance
1. Loon 333,809
2. Sunapee 261,000
3. Bretton Woods 192,008 (10/11)
4. Gunstock 181,090
5. Attitash 165,138
6. Waterville Valley 158,977

In comparison here is the order from the year ASC sold Waterville and Cranmore

95/96 Season Attendance
1. Loon 337, 503
2. Waterville Valley 256,000
3. Gunstock 239,000
4. Attitash 208,000
5. Bretton Woods 130,000
6. Sunapee 119,880

Interesting how Loon's number are almost exactly the same, everyone else has changed considerably

Overall Waterville Peaked at 333,702 in 92/93
Attitash at 233,000 in 97/98
Loon at 427,611 in 12/13


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> Looking at newenglandskihistory.com, it has Waterville's attendance numbers up to 15/16, but that season is an outlier for how bad it was so I will use 14/15 as a baseline for comparison, but Bretton Woods is not listed for 14/15, so I'm using its numbers from 10/11.  I know this is not perfect science.  Today I bet Pats Peak beats Waterville as well.
> 
> 14/15 Season Attendance
> 1. Loon 333,809
> ...


Waterville Valley has lost a lot of marketshare!

And no numbers for Cannon?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Waterville Valley has lost a lot of marketshare!
> 
> And no numbers for Cannon?



 i went to waterville for the first time a few weeks ago and my gps was set to waterville valley town, not the resort, and i wound up in a fairly massive 'town' with a shopping center and a shit ton of condos. looked like a major boston area family vacation destination to me. moreso than anywhere else i've visited in nh. i haven't ever been to bretton or attitash but i've skied the other big places a bit (cannon, loon, wildcat)


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Waterville Valley has lost a lot of marketshare!
> 
> And no numbers for Cannon?


Cannon most recent season listed is 12/13 with 109,888, in 95/96 it had 95,642, its peak was 00/01 with 133,656


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i went to waterville for the first time a few weeks ago and my gps was set to waterville valley town, not the resort, and i wound up in a fairly massive 'town' with a shopping center and a shit ton of condos. looked like a major boston area family vacation destination to me. moreso than anywhere else i've visited in nh. i haven't ever been to bretton or attitash but i've skied the other big places a bit (cannon, loon, wildcat)


The town of Waterville Valley is 5+ miles from any other civilization though.  It is a very insular ski destination.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> The town of Waterville Valley is 5+ miles from any other civilization though.  It is a very insular ski destination.



Somewhat strange that it has remained like that all these years given it's location so close to Boston.  It's kinda like Sugarloaf in that the town wouldn't even exist if there wasn't a ski area there.


----------



## Geoff (Jan 20, 2022)

I haven’t skied Waterville since college when they gave ski shop employees comp tickets.  1979, maybe.  I’m kind of surprised it’s not similar skier visits to Loon like it was back in the dark ages.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I haven’t skied Waterville since college when they gave ski shop employees comp tickets.  1979, maybe.  I’m kind of surprised it’s not similar skier visits to Loon like it was back in the dark ages.



You shouldn't be. Waterville peaked in the 80s and rested on their laurels until about 5 years ago when they added Green Peak and kinda half assed it.  They opened a terrain pod that added 30% more terrain, BUT they only moved over a 30 year old triple chair to service the new terrain.   Had they added a High Speed Quad, it would have really been a a big change to the skiing experience.  Virtually all of the ski areas in NH have invested more in improvements and expansion than Waterville has since the 80s


----------



## machski (Jan 20, 2022)

Geoff said:


> I haven’t skied Waterville since college when they gave ski shop employees comp tickets.  1979, maybe.  I’m kind of surprised it’s not similar skier visits to Loon like it was back in the dark ages.


Well, Loon has high speed lifts everywhere, including their newish South Peak Expansion.  The bedbase in Lincoln keeps growing and growing and with South Peak, is a stone's throw away.  At Waterville, they went the cheap route and re-used a FGT for their Green Peak expansion, which doesn't really hold a candle to South at Loon.  They have 2 high speed lifts, one the ancient White Peaks Express.  They have done some upgrades and the coming MND bubble 6 will start to move the needle a bit.  Waterville will need to do the next phase of Green Peak, linking the village to the mountain if they are ever going to claw back skier/rider share.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Getting way off the Vail sucks and Vaxxwars topic of this thread pretty wide here, but it's always been interesting to me how the level of ski area development in VT has outpaced NH since the 60s when the quantity and scale of ski resort development was pretty similar between the two states back then. 

Here's VT which has the reputation of being a horrible place to do business with very restrictive zoning.   Yet their major areas all exploded over the past 50 years.

Contrast that to NH which is widely viewed as more business and zoning friendly than VT and the ski area development has been paltry in comparison.  Our largest resort is small by VT standards in 2022. 

VT does have a significant natural snow advantage, but NH has a significant topography advantage.  The mountains have so much more vertical and steeper terrain here than VT.   

I suspect it's simply a matter of VT being closer to NYC money and larger population than NH is to small Boston in comparison.


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I suspect it's simply a matter of VT being closer to NYC money and larger population than NH is to small Boston in comparison.


You raise an interesting question...and I think this last thought of yours is really the key to the answer.

I live in the NY metro area and have never skied in NH. It is just so hard to justify the drive. I've always wanted to ski Wildcat (would never do it right now under Vail ownership of course). However that is about a 6.5 hour drive for me to get there. Literally every ski area in VT is closer than that (even Jay!). And to be perfectly honest...the drive to VT resorts for me does not involve any driving through either CT or MA which is a nice bonus from a traffic perspective as I absolutely hate driving through both of those states.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 20, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, Loon has high speed lifts everywhere, including their newish South Peak Expansion.  The bedbase in Lincoln keeps growing and growing and with South Peak, is a stone's throw away.  At Waterville, they went the cheap route and re-used a FGT for their Green Peak expansion, which doesn't really hold a candle to South at Loon.  They have 2 high speed lifts, one the ancient White Peaks Express.  They have done some upgrades and the coming MND bubble 6 will start to move the needle a bit.  Waterville will need to do the next phase of Green Peak, linking the village to the mountain if they are ever going to claw back skier/rider share.


What’s the deal with installing the t-bar to the sunmit? I love T-bars but…


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## MadKitty (Jan 20, 2022)

The whites are much rougher, rockier and windier than the greens. Road access to the bigger mtns would be logistically difficult in many cases. The one accessible undeveloped spot that screams for a ski area is Mt. Blue. A beautiful 2k vert northeast facing bowl with access to the snowfield on Mt. Moosilauke. It's the other spot the state looked at putting the cannon tram. 

https://newenglandskihistory.com/cancelledskiareas/NewHampshire/mtblue.php


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## MadKitty (Jan 20, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> What’s the deal with installing the t-bar to the sunmit? I love T-bars but…


They're wind proof! The shortened the quad because it frequently went on wind hold. The chair the T-bar replaced had the same issue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> You raise an interesting question...and I think this last thought of yours is really the key to the answer.
> 
> I live in the NY metro area and have never skied in NH. It is just so hard to justify the drive. I've always wanted to ski Wildcat (would never do it right now under Vail ownership of course). However that is about a 6.5 hour drive for me to get there. Literally every ski area in VT is closer than that (even Jay!). And to be perfectly honest...the drive to VT resorts for me does not involve any driving through either CT or MA which is a nice bonus from a traffic perspective as I absolutely hate driving through both of those states.



Likewise I've only skied in NY one time.  One night skiing session at West Mountain when I was a freshman at Skidmore college.  I ended up transferring to UVM after a couple of ski bum years.

But ever since I haven't come close to skiing in NY.  Because I have to drive so much further to pass VT. 

I totally get why NY/NJ folks never come to NH to aki


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

E


deadheadskier said:


> You shouldn't be. Waterville peaked in the 80s and rested on their laurels until about 5 years ago when they added Green Peak and kinda half assed it.  They opened a terrain pod that added 30% more terrain, BUT they only moved over a 30 year old triple chair to service the new terrain.   Had they added a High Speed Quad, it would have really been a a big change to the skiing experience.  Virtually all of the ski areas in NH have invested more in improvements and expansion than Waterville has since the 80s


Exactly.  They’ve fallen behind.  I also interpret installing a new flagship lift manufactured by a new no-name company to be to save costs. I certainly hope the cost savings outweigh the risk of having a lemon.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> The whites are much rougher, rockier and windier than the greens. Road access to the bigger mtns would be logistically difficult in many cases. The one accessible undeveloped spot that screams for a ski area is Mt. Blue. A beautiful 2k vert northeast facing bowl with access to the snowfield on Mt. Moosilauke. It's the other spot the state looked at putting the cannon tram.
> 
> https://newenglandskihistory.com/cancelledskiareas/NewHampshire/mtblue.php



I think the Pliny Range would have been the best with MT Waimbek and Starr King. Would have been a massive boost to the Lancaster area economy


----------



## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Likewise I've only skied in NY one time.  One night skiing session at West Mountain when I was a freshman at Skidmore college.  I ended up transferring to UVM after a couple of ski bum years.
> 
> But ever since I haven't come close to skiing in NY.  Because I have to drive so much further to pass VT.
> 
> I totally get why NY/NJ folks never come to NH to aki


Yea...completely makes sense. Ironically West is one of the areas in NY I've never skied (but I drive by it every weekend on my way to VT!). In NY I've skied Belleayre, Hunter, Windham, Platty, Gore, Whiteface, and finally Bristol out in western NY (45 minutes from Rochester, NY where I went to college). NY has a ton of ski areas and many of them are quite good, but I'd never expect someone from NH or the Boston metro area to ski them much.

I do still one day want to make it to a couple NH areas...the scenery alone at some of the resorts you guys have out there like Wildcat have always made them something I've been interested in. I've actually been on Wildcat's e-mail list for well over 10 years now.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2022)

Likewise my desire to ski Gore and Whiteface and also check out Platty, Bell and even Hunter though less so the latter

Because Vail sucks


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yea...completely makes sense. Ironically West is one of the areas in NY I've never skied (but I drive by it every weekend on my way to VT!). In NY I've skied Belleayre, Hunter, Windham, Platty, Gore, Whiteface, and finally Bristol out in western NY (45 minutes from Rochester, NY where I went to college). NY has a ton of ski areas and many of them are quite good, but I'd never expect someone from NH or the Boston metro area to ski them much.
> 
> I do still one day want to make it to a couple NH areas...the scenery alone at some of the resorts you guys have out there like Wildcat have always made them something I've been interested in. I've actually been on Wildcat's e-mail list for well over 10 years now.


The new owners have turned West around from what I’ve seen.


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## MadKitty (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the Pliny Range would have been the best with MT Waimbek and Starr King. Would have been a massive boost to the Lancaster area economy


Yes that one is interesting too. I'm not sure that area actually gets as much snow as you would think just looking at the topography though. The NWS has a product where they use satellite data to estimate snow depth. That region almost always shows less snow than the main part of the whites. Don't know how accurate the NWS's methods are though. 

https://weatherstreet.com/weather-forecast/new-hampshire-snow-cover.htm


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## cdskier (Jan 20, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Likewise my desire to ski Gore and Whiteface and also check out Platty, Bell and even Hunter though less so the latter
> 
> Because Vail sucks


LOL. Hunter is one I probably was last at 15+ years ago and really don't have much desire to go back to (even before Vail owned them). Belleayre and Platty I was both at within the past several years and are my two favorites in the Catskills. Windham I just went back to a couple weeks ago for the first time in a while (free on Ikon so while the terrain isn't anything to write home about...the cost factor was hard to beat for a day trip  ).

I need to go back to Whiteface one day. My one trip there was disappointing and I'm sure didn't really do it justice (it was "Iceface" that weekend). Gore is fantastic and I love it. My 2nd favorite resort behind Sugarbush.


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## ctdubl07 (Jan 21, 2022)

Holy Sh!t....... I woke up and it is possible, page 257 of this thread actually might be heading us back to Vail sucking.
Come on all you career cranky posters, keep it up!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 21, 2022)

Vail sux


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## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2022)

Have a friend with the epic military pass. I never ski with him anymore. He has no idea how much vail sux because it’s almost free for him.


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## snoseek (Jan 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Have a friend with the epic military pass. I never ski with him anymore. He has no idea how much vail sux because it’s almost free for him.


Honestly for the active military people that pass is kind of a no-brainer. I think it's like 150 or something like that. 

I bit on the veteran pass 2 years in a row. If they weren't so shitty in nh I would absolutely be a long term customer as it's an amazing deal but I'll go the dhs route and give them some time off until they either crash and burn or at some point figure out how to run the nh areas. If they could run the other nh areas like they run the vt areas or even sunapee I would be ok.


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## gittist (Jan 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Have a friend with the epic military pass. I never ski with him anymore. He has no idea how much vail sux because it’s almost free for him.


Fail Vail still sucks for those that have the military passes, just not as bad.


----------



## skimagic (Jan 21, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's VT which has the reputation of being a horrible place to do business with very restrictive zoning.   Yet their major areas all exploded over the past 50 years.
> 
> Contrast that to NH which is widely viewed as more business and zoning friendly than VT and the ski area development has been paltry in comparison.  Our largest resort is small by VT standards in 2022.
> 
> I suspect it's simply a matter of VT being closer to NYC money and larger population than NH is to small Boston in comparison.


The issue is also land ownership.  Most of the VT areas were built on private or state land with the exception of the Lincoln side of Sugabush and the upper part of MT Snow , both USFS property.  I think most of the NH White mountain areas  are hemmed in by USFS land but significant expansion has occurred at BW Attitash and Loon. Cannon, on state land,  absorbed Mittersill so that's an expansion too.


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## snoseek (Jan 21, 2022)

HOLY FUCK THEY'RE BLOWING SNOW ON LYNX!!!!


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## gittist (Jan 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Honestly for the active military people that pass is kind of a no-brainer. I think it's like 150 or something like that.
> 
> I bit on the veteran pass 2 years in a row. If they weren't so shitty in nh I would absolutely be a long term customer as it's an amazing deal but I'll go the dhs route and give them some time off until they either crash and burn or at some point figure out how to run the nh areas. If they could run the other nh areas like they run the vt areas or even sunapee I would be ok.


It started out at $99 but that was before they bought Peak Resorts.  At one point the price rose to $199 but with COVID and the 20% off it's still not bad, IF you can ski with it.  This year I probably won't even hit the break even point.


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## pinion247 (Jan 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> HOLY FUCK THEY'RE BLOWING SNOW ON LYNX!!!!



Is it sad that I had their webcam up almost all day yesterday on 2nd monitor? Snow visibly being blown on Lynx all day. And per WC's Twitter message, all night as well. AND STILL GOING NOW.

This does not make Vail suck any less, but snowmakers are becoming heroes in MWV at this point in the season.


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## xlr8r (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> E
> 
> Exactly.  They’ve fallen behind.  I also interpret installing a new flagship lift manufactured by a new no-name company to be to save costs. I certainly hope the cost savings outweigh the risk of having a lemon.


I read somewhere that LST have been giving Chris Sununu political donations.  One big problem Waterville has is the terrain sucks for the most part.  Lots of trails were cut too wide and very few have any real identity.  Loon, Bretton Woods, Cannon, Sunapee, Ragged, and Gunstock all have better cut trails, especially for intermediates.


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## pinion247 (Jan 21, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> I read somewhere that LST have been giving Chris Sununu political donations.  One big problem Waterville has is the terrain sucks for the most part.  Lots of trails were cut too wide and very few have any real identity.  Loon, Bretton Woods, Cannon, Sunapee, Ragged, and Gunstock all have better cut trails, especially for intermediates.



Add Cranmore to that list. North side trails (Kandahar, Skimiester, etc) - cut a million years ago - have a ton of character and when the snow is good are some of the most fun and fluid blues in New Hampshire IMO.


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## Mainer (Jan 21, 2022)

I had the threedom pass all through college. We would occasionally go to Waterville. I always found it dark icy and boring. They did have a great park though. But loon was always far superior in every way.


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## thebigo (Jan 21, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> What’s the deal with installing the t-bar to the sunmit? I love T-bars but…


Rode up with a WV patroller opening day at SR this year. He said their business plan was to blow the upper mountain and rent lanes to race teams early season. He gave some stupid number on the early season cost to rent a lane, maybe $5K / day? don't remember.


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## snoseek (Jan 21, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> I read somewhere that LST have been giving Chris Sununu political donations.  One big problem Waterville has is the terrain sucks for the most part.  Lots of trails were cut too wide and very few have any real identity.  Loon, Bretton Woods, Cannon, Sunapee, Ragged, and Gunstock all have better cut trails, especially for intermediates.


I think they were trying to replicate western areas like breckinridge when they cut that place. 
I've not been in many years bit that Sunnyside area was sorta fun as was the trails on the lookers right. 
Overall the place seemed like it would work great for racers and families


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## pinion247 (Jan 21, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I had the threedom pass all through college. We would occasionally go to Waterville. I always found it dark icy and boring. They did have a great park though. But loon was always far superior in every way.



There was a time - late 90's - that their park was incredible at WV. Small but really well laid out. The Boneyard!

Not quite as crazy as Sunday River at that time (a double-barreled half pipe at Barker. And the terrain park at White Cap had a broken down bus you could bank off of - or smoke up inside of), and nothing compared to stuff like Carinthia now. But those were the days. Lots of technical stuff. Before big air was king.

My old fat body would break into a thousand pieces trying to replicate that stuff I did in the 90's. I was so malleable back then


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## Mainer (Jan 21, 2022)

I remember the broken bus at sr. So sketchy with the broken and sharp metal. So much fun as teenager.


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> There was a time - late 90's - that their park was incredible at WV. Small but really well laid out. The Boneyard!
> 
> Not quite as crazy as Sunday River at that time (a double-barreled half pipe at Barker. And the terrain park at White Cap had a broken down bus you could bank off of - or smoke up inside of), and nothing compared to stuff like Carinthia now. But those were the days. Lots of technical stuff. Before big air was king.
> 
> My old fat body would break into a thousand pieces trying to replicate that stuff I did in the 90's. I was so malleable back then



WV still is on the schedule most every year from some high level, usally later in the season championship/finals type USSSA slopestyle competitions.

And while my kids aren't slopestyle competitors, numerous Mount Snow friends of mine have kids that are and have been to comps at WV and have almost unanimously been impressed with what they put on. And given that their home training facility is Carinthia, that says a bunch about what WV has/can do, even if it doesn't get a ton of notariety for their park facilities


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## kendo (Jan 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> HOLY FUCK THEY'RE BLOWING SNOW ON LYNX!!!!



think they shanghaied Stowe's crew.  

No snowmaking noted in yesterday or today's report and no activity (on yet to open Hayride) on the webcam the last couple of days.


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 21, 2022)

kendo said:


> think they shanghaied Stowe's crew.
> 
> No snowmaking noted in yesterday or today's report and no activity (on yet to open Hayride) on the webcam the last couple of days.


Can Attitash please borrow some of their snow groomers?  They have trails with whales that need to be pushed out.


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## machski (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> E
> 
> Exactly.  They’ve fallen behind.  I also interpret installing a new flagship lift manufactured by a new no-name company to be to save costs. I certainly hope the cost savings outweigh the risk of having a lemon.


Well, they aren't so new no-name in Europe, but to date MND has only done surface lifts on North America.  I am sure MND cut Waterville a nice discount to be their North American launch customer (and to install a chair with all of their bells and whistles too).  That said, the High Country T-Bar is MND and the proposed World Cup T-Bar is also slated to be MND.  We are seeing many resorts choose and stick to one manufacturer thesebdays to cut down on part inventory costs most likely.  Perhaps Waterville has a good relationship with MND and to some extent, they have them all to themselves for scheduling right now.


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## kendo (Jan 21, 2022)

and sounds like Hunter needs to borrow Stowe's plowing and trucking crew.  They keep the Mansfield lot bare and are trucking out excess snow - daily.


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## machski (Jan 21, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the Pliny Range would have been the best with MT Waimbek and Starr King. Would have been a massive boost to the Lancaster area economy


The old plans for that area were off the charts!  They wanted to clear out an entire East facing "ravine" to basically create their version of Tucks but in bounds.


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## machski (Jan 21, 2022)

skimagic said:


> The issue is also land ownership.  Most of the VT areas were built on private or state land with the exception of the Lincoln side of Sugabush and the upper part of MT Snow , both USFS property.  I think most of the NH White mountain areas  are hemmed in by USFS land but significant expansion has occurred at BW Attitash and Loon. Cannon, on state land,  absorbed Mittersill so that's an expansion too.


The other thing to remember is up until around 1980, VT was all for ski area expansion and growth.  That started to change once we rounded into the 80's, when VT got more and more restrictive to development and expansion into the wilds.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, they aren't so new no-name in Europe, but to date MND has only done surface lifts on North America.  I am sure MND cut Waterville a nice discount to be their North American launch customer (and to install a chair with all of their bells and whistles too).  That said, the High Country T-Bar is MND and the proposed World Cup T-Bar is also slated to be MND.  We are seeing many resorts choose and stick to one manufacturer thesebdays to cut down on part inventory costs most likely.  Perhaps Waterville has a good relationship with MND and to some extent, they have them all to themselves for scheduling right now.


They also have Sufag for snowmaking and had to have a tech on site often to get through their first year with their surface lifts and snowmaking system. Based on MND group's snowguns I'm not riding their lifts.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, they aren't so new no-name in Europe, but to date MND has only done surface lifts on North America.  I am sure MND cut Waterville a nice discount to be their North American launch customer (and to install a chair with all of their bells and whistles too).  That said, the High Country T-Bar is MND and the proposed World Cup T-Bar is also slated to be MND.  We are seeing many resorts choose and stick to one manufacturer thesebdays to cut down on part inventory costs most likely.  Perhaps Waterville has a good relationship with MND and to some extent, they have them all to themselves for scheduling right now.


I think competition is a good thing.  But has MND made a detachable chairlift?  

I know that, through LST, they have done a lot of surface lifts.  I believe that the WV lift was significantly delayed and apparently the MND/LST snowmaking guns had issues from what I have read.  

Hope it works out for the sake of the skiers/riders.


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## xlr8r (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I think competition is a good thing.  But has MND made a detachable chairlift?
> 
> I know that, through LST, they have done a lot of surface lifts.  I believe that the WV lift was significantly delayed and apparently the MND/LST snowmaking guns had issues from what I have read.
> 
> Hope it works out for the sake of the skiers/riders.


MND/LST built 1 detachable in France and it was a failure.  MND dropped the LST brand, and they now are aligned with Bartholet, which has built numerous detachables in Europe.  So Waterville is in fact getting a Bartholet Detachable 6 pack that is being brokered by MND.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> MND/LST built 1 detachable in France and it was a failure.  MND dropped the LST brand, and they now are aligned with Bartholet, which has built numerous detachables in Europe.  So Waterville is in fact getting a Bartholet Detachable 6 pack that is being brokered by MND.


OK.  That is interesting.  

I was actually reading about Bartholet's latest big project at Flumserberg.   Pretty nice.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jan 21, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Ignore is basically Nah Nah I can’t hear you, That’s what little kids do. How do you know You’re right if you only listen to one side. I think the bluAnon people are just as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle
> I’m waiting for my answer Bostonian, what does the VAX mandate do for the Ski area besides making it harder To find employees?


Yeah - no.   Show me the data on what the "middle ground" is on vaccinations.


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## Great Bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I’m waiting for my answer Bostonian, what does the VAX mandate do for the Ski area besides making it harder To find employees?



It reduces (but does not eliminate) the likely hood of outbreaks among their staff and significantly reduces the chances that any will be seriously ill which would keep them out of work for extended periods.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 21, 2022)

boston_e said:


> Had they not had the mandate, they likely would have lost more employees and many of the 80 affected would have been out for longer.


Doubtful with omicron and the high level of breakthough, but by all means believe your fantasy


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## ThatGuy (Jan 21, 2022)

Using omicron as a reasoning for no vax is just so dumb. Not even trying to get into this debate but its like if someone offered a bulletproof vest and you said no thanks people have been shooting at the knees recently.


----------



## mtskifan (Jan 21, 2022)

Came across this great video about the ski patrol at Jackson. Good reminder about the importance of institutional knowledge and local community at ski resorts. Vail execs should watch:


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## TyWebb (Jan 21, 2022)

Vail stock falls: Capacity, staffing problems at Stowe


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

TyWebb said:


> Vail stock falls: Capacity, staffing problems at Stowe


Whoa.  Some key points:



> After talking to snowmakers on the mountain, Brown estimated that the resort may be employing approximately half the number they have in previous years, which could have led to less than optimal snow conditions on the mountain for skiers and snowboarders.





> One financial report’s diagnosis: A massive leap in the sale of Epic passes, the fairly affordable tickets that allow holders to access any of the 37 Vail-owned resorts across the country, combined with conditions of massive understaffing, have led to a perfect storm of unsatisfied customers.





> “I think the biggest problem that Vail has right now is they’ve got an awful lot of passholders and not enough bodies to provide the level of service they traditionally have provided,” he said. “Whether that’s food service, whether it’s lifties, whether it’s snowmaking, whether it’s shuttle drivers, I can’t answer that. But I do see stuff all the time.”





> The Truist analysts also repeated allegations that Vail had “gutted” middle management and outsourced many of its higher-level positions to Broomfield, Colo., where Vail is headquartered, which has resulted in a loss of expertise when it comes to wage setting, hiring and a “local touch.”
> This matches what Brown sees occurring at Stowe.





> “I think it’s important to remember that nobody was complaining when the pass prices dropped. Back when Vail bought this place and they introduced the Epic pass, people were not complaining,” he said.
> 
> *For all the complaints from skiers and snowboarders, Vail Resorts is making money. *Another report published in mid-January from the same analysts reported that revenue is up year-over-year for lift ticket sales, ski instruction, dining and retail.


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## Great Bear (Jan 21, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Doubtful with omicron and the high level of breakthough, but by all means believe your fantasy



It may not really be a fantasy - current best estimates for efficacy against infection at all when boosted are somewhere around 70%.  Obviously at that level there can still be a good number of breakthroughs, but it still provides pretty good protection.  Also, who knows how many of the Killington employees were boosted vs having just had the initial doses or if Killington required the 3rd dose at all.


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## Great Bear (Jan 21, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Using omicron as a reasoning for no vax is just so dumb. Not even trying to get into this debate but its like if someone offered a bulletproof vest and you said no thanks people have been shooting at the knees recently.


Very good analogy


----------



## Mainer (Jan 21, 2022)

The middle road is the vaccine works in preventing serious illness and death. It doesn’t prevent spread, Fauci just said the same thing. The mandate kind of made sense before all the breakthrough cases, makes zero sense with omnicron. A snowmaker has a far greater chance of dying on the job then dying of covid. So if they are willing to take the risk of the job, they should be willing to take the risk of not getting the vaccine. It’s also more dangerous for a 20 yr old driving to work then not being vaccinated. 
    This pandemic could almost be over but instead of celebrating. People are still bitching about unvaccinated. I think people like the pandemic and can’t let it go. The people still bitching about masks and vaccines are just as bad as the people still with a trump sign on their lawn. Time to move on, shows over.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Great Bear said:


> It may not really be a fantasy - current best estimates for efficacy against infection at all when boosted are somewhere around 70%.  Obviously at that level there can still be a good number of breakthroughs, but it still provides pretty good protection.  Also, who knows how many of the Killington employees were boosted vs having just had the initial doses or if Killington required the 3rd dose at all.





Great Bear said:


> Very good analogy





Mainer said:


> The middle road is the vaccine works in preventing serious illness and death. It doesn’t prevent spread, Fauci just said the same thing. The mandate kind of made sense before all the breakthrough cases, makes zero sense with omnicron. A snowmaker has a far greater chance of dying on the job then dying of covid. So if they are willing to take the risk of the job, they should be willing to take the risk of not getting the vaccine. It’s also more dangerous for a 20 yr old driving to work then not being vaccinated.
> This pandemic could almost be over but instead of celebrating. People are still bitching about unvaccinated. I think people like the pandemic and can’t let it go. The people still bitching about masks and vaccines are just as bad as the people still with a trump sign on their lawn. Time to move on, shows over.


Again, this is about VAIL and not VACCINES.    A part of me wonders if this is Rob Katz or someone at Vail who is trying to derail this thread.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Whoa.  Some key points:



_"It would be a major concession for me to say they drove me out of here and it’s not going to happen. But I’m not going to be the guy that says Stowe is awesome."_

This is where I'm at with Wildcat currently. I likely won't leave, but I'm not telling people it's worth coming either. That said, through the game theory lens Vail still wins because I don't influence many people's decisions and Vail still gets my $$


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Whoa.  Some key points:



I know Kim personally from my Stowe days.

That was something to read coming from him.  He makes Dr Jeff look like a pessimist


----------



## Mainer (Jan 21, 2022)

I do remember the people on this board complaining when the pass price decrease happened, so at least we saw the crowds coming. And idiots like me still bought a pass because it was cheap.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> _"It would be a major concession for me to say they drove me out of here and it’s not going to happen. But I’m not going to be the guy that says Stowe is awesome."_
> 
> This is where I'm at with Wildcat currently. I likely won't leave, but I'm not telling people it's worth coming either. That said, through the game theory lens Vail still wins because I don't influence many people's decisions and Vail still gets my $$



Are you tied geographically to Wildcat?

It's very hard for me to not own a Wildcat pass.  My favorite mountain and vibe in NH, but it's just such a shit show now.  I would be so angry this year had I bought a pass there.  Hell I still am.  That was the place I wanted to raise my kids skiing.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 21, 2022)

I feel the same lately...it woukd really piss me off if i let vail drive me away from Stowe...its been very god there lately...yes natural sniw will do that...but 2300 vert of steep moguls is hard to come by anywhere else...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 21, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I feel the same lately...it woukd really piss me off if i let vail drive me away from Stowe...its been very god there lately...yes natural sniw will do that...but 2300 vert of steep moguls is hard to come by anywhere else...



plenty of places to ski long bump runs. what makes stowe special is the tree-skiing and the sidecountry.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 21, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Are you tied geographically to Wildcat?
> 
> It's very hard for me to not own a Wildcat pass.  My favorite mountain and vibe in NH, but it's just such a shit show now.  I would be so angry this year had I bought a pass there.  Hell I still am.  That was the place I wanted to raise my kids skiing.



I am in North Conway for weekends/holidays. We are willing to travel occasionally (Cannon, Sunday River), but the easiest for us to hit are Cranmore, Attitash, Black, and Wildcat. Shawnee and King Pine are options but not for daily skiing due to size. Cranmore grooms everything... not my bag. Black is ok but their struggles are real the past 10 years and consistency until Feb is a now yearly issue.

For me and my fam Wildcat is the best for daily vert + challenge + character within 30 minutes drive. Honestly the SuperPass would be fine for next year since we can rely more heavily on some combo of Cranmore/Cannon. Coming into this season I refused to believe things could be worse than last year. I have been known to be wrong from time to time


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 21, 2022)

mtskifan said:


> Came across this great video about the ski patrol at Jackson. Good reminder about the importance of institutional knowledge and local community at ski resorts. Vail execs should watch:


Seen many kids grow up in a top shack w/ us.  Hard work from a teenager is rare these days.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 21, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Seen many kids grow up in a top shack w/ us.  Hard work from a teenager is rare these days.


Ragged was short staffed last weekend. They had what appeared to be a very young kid running one of the carpets. I asked him how old he was -  kid said 11. Then I asked if he was getting paid - kid said no, my dad works here and I like to help out. The kind of conversation that restores ones faith in the next generation.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Ragged was short staffed last weekend. They had what appeared to be a very young kid running one of the carpets. I asked him how old he was -  kid said 11. Then I asked if he was getting paid - kid said no, my dad works here and I like to help out. The kind of conversation that restores ones faith in the next generation.


State of NH may not like that too much or osha


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 21, 2022)

Wait till Vail learns about this new cost cutting measure…..child labor


----------



## kendo (Jan 21, 2022)

Great pic in this article on Vail.  Case filled with epic amounts of cash & excuses!





source:  https://snowbrains.com/vail-resorts-mid-season-analysis/


----------



## ss20 (Jan 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> State of NH may not like that too much or osha



lol my thoughts exactly...but I agree that kid is growing up right!  I couldn't even let people under 18 work the drills to set-up netting...because...power tools hahaha.  To be fair though 9/10 days when the groomed snow was literally 3" deep it really could yank ya and possibly break your wrist once you hit the cold, hard, solid dirt.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 21, 2022)

When I went sky diving they had a film showing a lawyer dressed like that jumping out of the plane. It was a short film to tell us that by signing the liability waiver we had no recourse to sue if there was an incident.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 21, 2022)

I would imagine..after an incident...others would be trying to sue...


----------



## skiur (Jan 21, 2022)

JimG. said:


> When I went sky diving they had a film showing a lawyer dressed like that jumping out of the plane. It was a short film to tell us that by signing the liability waiver we had no recourse to sue if there was an incident



No recourse unless the lawyer can prove negligence.  Personal injury lawyers are pretty good at that.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 21, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The middle road is the vaccine works in preventing serious illness and death. It doesn’t prevent spread, Fauci just said the same thing. The mandate kind of made sense before all the breakthrough cases, makes zero sense with omnicron. A snowmaker has a far greater chance of dying on the job then dying of covid. So if they are willing to take the risk of the job, they should be willing to take the risk of not getting the vaccine. It’s also more dangerous for a 20 yr old driving to work then not being vaccinated.
> This pandemic could almost be over but instead of celebrating. People are still bitching about unvaccinated. I think people like the pandemic and can’t let it go. The people still bitching about masks and vaccines are just as bad as the people still with a trump sign on their lawn. Time to move on, shows over.


The way that the positivity rates in the Northeast are dropping right now, Omicron has infected most everyone it could, and short of the really old with multiple co-morbidities and/or some very select, very immunocompromised individuals, the Northeast will be close to pre Omicron positivity rates by Pres Week if not sooner. And likely before the "free" gov't at home tests and N95 masks arrive in many folks mailboxes.

The high infectivity rate and fortunately for most, low virulence of Omicron did its thing in the Northeast and realistically peaked in the 1st 10 days of January


----------



## abc (Jan 21, 2022)

It clearly had peaked. Just a matter of how big and long the tail is.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The way that the positivity rates in the Northeast are dropping right now, Omicron has infected most everyone it could, and short of the really old with multiple co-morbidities and/or some very select, very immunocompromised individuals, the Northeast will be close to pre Omicron positivity rates by Pres Week if not sooner. And likely before the "free" gov't at home tests and N95 masks arrive in many folks mailboxes.
> 
> The high infectivity rate and fortunately for most, low virulence of Omicron did its thing in the Northeast and realistically peaked in the 1st 10 days of January



Yup.

You know where Omicron is peaking right now? Cancun.   My company President came to his senses on Wednesday and cancelled our National meeting in Mexico next weekend. Realized there was a pretty good chance many of his personnel would test positive down there and get stranded  taking them out of the field for 5 to 10 days.  

Gained my ski weekend with my kids back.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Back to Vail.  It sucks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> State of NH may not like that too much or osha


What they don’t know won’t hurt them


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

Wow.  Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch.   According to LiftBlog, Vail has apparently "updated" the Attitash trail map to remove the East and West Double Doubles and add the yet-to-be built Progression Quad.  What the actual fuck?!



			https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/pdfs/Attitash_Trail_Map_2122.pdf


----------



## ctdubl07 (Jan 22, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Seen many kids grow up in a top shack w/ us.  Hard work from a teenager is rare these days.


One of my 13 yr olds really wants to be on the SP, he looks at these/you folks with such aspiration. Hes a great skier, rule follower and a "helper" at heart (his brothers not so much..) My understanding is that thru the many changes in mgmt at MSnow over years, theyve lost whatever Junior/development program was in place. Such a shame. After seeing whats happened across country with Patrolling (labor in general) any leader with even the smallest sense of strategic thinking should focus on programs that path into this service. My local CT hills SPatrol page points 15 yrs olds to the NSP YAP but something like this seems like a no brainer for Vail to encourage or allow control back at the "local" level for implementation. If his interest sticks, i'll check out the local EMS course our Vol Amb offers and start him there but a shame its all on us to figure out how to essentially support them, that sucks.


thetrailboss said:


> Back to Vail.  It sucks.


Moderator, please eliminate page 260....we were almost there and someone dragged us back


----------



## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch.   According to LiftBlog, Vail has apparently "updated" the Attitash trail map to remove the East and West Double Doubles and add the yet-to-be built Progression Quad.  What the actual fuck?!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/pdfs/Attitash_Trail_Map_2122.pdf


That’s a lift I’d actually take after doing the skate over from Bear, if it was an HSQ. Haven’t been following all the Attitash plans so if they’re not calling it the “Flying Progressive”  perhaps it’s a fixed.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 22, 2022)

I'm sure this will solve the problematic long lift lines









						Vail Resorts’ plan to reduce lift lines includes ‘Phone Free Zones’
					

VAIL — It seems like something out of a dark comedy at this point in the season, with an enormous lift line occupying a full page of the Wall Street Journal. But believe it or…




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Mainer (Jan 22, 2022)

No triple at attitash again today. So basically 2 runs off yankee Is all that’s open on attitash side. One requires a skate over and a skate back. Flying bear is down right now too. Double double definitely not happening this year. Town is packed. Is this rock bottom, or can it get worse?


----------



## snoseek (Jan 22, 2022)

Mainer said:


> No triple at attitash again today. So basically 2 runs off yankee Is all that’s open on attitash side. One requires a skate over and a skate back. Flying bear is down right now too. Double double definitely not happening this year. Town is packed. Is this rock bottom, or can it get worse?


Wow what? Damn it's gonna be a busy day


----------



## Mainer (Jan 22, 2022)

On a positive note, every lift at wildcat is running today. Too bad it a balmy -21 right now


----------



## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wow what? Damn it's gonna be a busy day


Maybe not, with the cold? This is all strategy, you guys, way beyond us.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2022)

Edd said:


> Maybe not, with the cold? This is all strategy, you guys, way beyond us.


it was -16 today at 8am in Henniker by Pats Peak - it is sold out for the day...


----------



## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> it was -16 today at 8am in Henniker by Pats Peak - it is sold out for the day...


You sound like a non-believer in Vail’s 5th dimensional business strategy.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 22, 2022)

Why would they at least turn the  abenaqui quad today?

Let's see how the Webcam looks for the one open lift at like 11...or will they all deal with the cold and go up to the cat


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## Mainer (Jan 22, 2022)

The Attitash lIftys are probably at wildcat today that’s why wildcat can run All the lifts


----------



## Katahdin (Jan 22, 2022)

Attitash looks like lots of fun today. This line for three trails on the lower half of the mountain.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> Attitash looks like lots of fun today. This line for three trails on the lower half of the mountain.


Good times


----------



## snoseek (Jan 22, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Good times


All that noise and you only get maybe 900 feet vert. Looks like a drinking day to me


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 22, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The Attitash lIftys are probably at wildcat today that’s why wildcat can run All the lifts


Tomcat and bobcat are closed now


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Tomcat and bobcat are closed now


Sending lifties to Attitash?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

Edd said:


> Sending lifties to Attitash?


"It's too cold for Wildcat today, so go back down to Attitash, guys!  Hurry up because the drive is your lunch break!"


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## pinion247 (Jan 22, 2022)

Wildcat got the Attitash crowds today.

Honestly feel bad for families that look at the EpicMix app, see 68% open, only to realize Wildcat drops ropes as long as a trail “looks” like it has snow - which is great for some, but given the body count laying around ungroomed Catapult and the Middle Wildcat boilerplate I’m assuming some families had a _really_ bad time.

Vail still sucks, but today’s awesome-sauce brought to you by Wildcat to Middle Catapult to Alleycat to Panther to Chute. Did that 6x times and almost ready to forgive Vail. Until I take a nap and come to my senses and realize this mountain is still in trouble unless Mother Nature dishes out weekly refreshes.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

Vail down to $279.16.  Good work guys!


----------



## Granite1 (Jan 22, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> Attitash looks like lots of fun today. This line for three trails on the lower half of the mountain.


Is that parking lot in front of the lift line one of the pay to park lots with 3 cars in it?


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail down to $279.16.  Good work guys!


I do my best!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Is that parking lot in front of the lift line one of the pay to park lots with 3 cars in it?



No. Just a drop off area.  The paid parking is to lookers left of the base lodge


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 22, 2022)

Not the Onion:








						Vail Resorts’ plan to reduce lift lines includes ‘Phone Free Zones’
					

VAIL — It seems like something out of a dark comedy at this point in the season, with an enormous lift line occupying a full page of the Wall Street Journal. But believe it or…




					www.vaildaily.com
				




Vail skier Tanner Miller was recently scolded by a line attendant for using his device in the Phone Free Zone at Chair 2 in Vail.

Miller said he couldn’t help but feel slightly insulted as an initial reaction.

“They won’t even let me fight the boredom of their enormous lift line by checking Epic Mix,” he said. “And this is coming from the same resort that equipped the gondola with WiFi.”


----------



## machski (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch.   According to LiftBlog, Vail has apparently "updated" the Attitash trail map to remove the East and West Double Doubles and add the yet-to-be built Progression Quad.  What the actual fuck?!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.attitash.com/-/aemasset/sitecore/attitash/pdfs/Attitash_Trail_Map_2122.pdf


I don't think Vail has any intention of running the Double Double again.  The Quad to replace that IS going in this summer.  Yes, I know that was mentioned on the forest service app along with the Cripple replacement, but the Double-Double isn't into Forest service land.  Probably just an additive to context the summit lift too.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 22, 2022)

machski said:


> I don't think Vail has any intention of running the Double Double again.  The Quad to replace that IS going in this summer.  Yes, I know that was mentioned on the forest service app along with the Cripple replacement, but the Double-Double isn't into Forest service land.  Probably just an additive to context the summit lift too.


Good discussion here:





						Attitash Double-Doubles are no more
					

Earlier it was noted the West Double-Double was stricken from the lift report with a mention on the Epic Mix app and a presser that West was permanently closed due to “imminent replacement.” Well today I can announce Attitash has… 1.




					www.snowjournal.com


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Not the Onion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While it makes sense that they want guests focused during the loading process, what kind of root cause analysis identified this as a major contributor to line lengths?

Talk about warped thinking on Vail’s part:
“Hey, there’s *10,000* people waiting for this quad and _THAT_ jerk just got distracted by his cell phone. Gotta put a stop to that cell phone stuff during loading. Lift slow downs will make us look bad”


----------



## RichT (Jan 22, 2022)

I went to get a cup of soup today at Hunter...........$11.50! Eat me! I left it on the counter and walked out!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

machski said:


> I don't think Vail has any intention of running the Double Double again.  The Quad to replace that IS going in this summer.  Yes, I know that was mentioned on the forest service app along with the Cripple replacement, but the Double-Double isn't into Forest service land.  Probably just an additive to context the summit lift too.


I get your point, but they can barely get anything open and they are putting a non-existent lift on their trail map before it goes in?  Seems like overpromising...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Good discussion here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hold it--Flying Yankee is not open midweek?!


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 22, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> While it makes sense that they want guests focused during the loading process, what kind of root cause analysis identified this as a major contributor to line lengths?
> 
> Talk about warped thinking on Vail’s part:
> “Hey, there’s *10,000* people waiting for this quad and _THAT_ jerk just got distracted by his cell phone. Gotta put a stop to that cell phone stuff during loading. Lift slow downs will make us look bad”


The cynical part of me thinks it's really just a stab at getting people to stop taking and posting photos and videos of the lift lines by pushing them to keep their phones in their pockets


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 22, 2022)

RichT said:


> I went to get a cup of soup today at Hunter...........$11.50! Eat me! I left it on the counter and walked out!


Isn't it less with an Epic Pass discount?
And if you don't have an Epic Pass, good God what are you doing at Hunter on a Saturday?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 22, 2022)

They made some parking $$ at Mount Snow today. First time I believe that they filled all of the pay lots, even the 2 $30 lots! Fresh snow, no wind, sunshine and temps that felt warmer than the teens it reached in the afternoon


----------



## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hold it--Flying Yankee is not open midweek?!


Pretty sure it was like that all last season also.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

Edd said:


> Pretty sure it was like that all last season also.


Whoa.  That is effed up.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2022)

Yup. No Flying Yankee midweek.  No more double doubles.  The Abenaki and Kachina chairs I don't believe have spun a single time all season.   It's god damned insulting to regulars who have supported Attitash for decades


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup. No Flying Yankee midweek.  No more double doubles.  The Abenaki and Kachina chairs I don't believe have spun a single time all season.   It's god damned insulting to regulars who have supported Attitash for decades


So sorry.  BW was pretty sweet today. Fully groomed out but minimal crowds. Great lunch at the 44 up top


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So sorry.  BW was pretty sweet today. Fully groomed out but minimal crowds. Great lunch at the 44 up top



I'm not angry from personal experience this year. I'm angry because AttiCat is where I wanted to raise my kids skiing and Vail has taken a steaming dump on both.  

I was at Pats today.  Sold out day, but all lifts 5 minutes or less to get on.  100% open, great grooming, tons of staff.  The way skiing should be.

I'll be at Gunstock tomorrow and will find a similarly well run operation.  

It's beyond the pale that the richest ski company in the world sucks so hard at ski resort operations like Vail does.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not angry from personal experience this year. I'm angry because AttiCat is where I wanted to raise my kids skiing and Vail has taken a steaming dump on both.
> 
> I was at Pats today.  Sold out day, but all lifts 5 minutes or less to get on.  100% open, great grooming, tons of staff.  The way skiing should be.
> 
> ...


I have to think that it is the beginning of the end for Vail.  This is worse than ASC.


----------



## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Great lunch at the 44 up top



Have you noticed how cold that joint is? Thought it was a first year glitch last season but still seems to be going.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I have to think that it is the beginning of the end for Vail.  This is worse than ASC.



I think they're years away from folding.  They're still making a shit ton of money and have $1.5B cash on hand


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I have to think that it is the beginning of the end for Vail.  This is worse than ASC.



Worse operations but still profitable, earnings keeping pace with growth, bigger investors, and not built in part on the back of a real-estate house of cards.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 22, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I have to think that it is the beginning of the end for Vail.  This is worse than ASC.


Much worse. I miss the ASC.


----------



## meff (Jan 22, 2022)

drjeff said:


> They made some parking $$ at Mount Snow today. First time I believe that they filled all of the pay lots, even the 2 $30 lots! Fresh snow, no wind, sunshine and temps that felt warmer than the teens it reached in the afternoon


I thought they filled them all last Sunday as well.  Could tell the lots were filled with how crowded the mountain got between 10:300 and 11.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 22, 2022)

Attitash hit its peak during the asc days. Ran all the lifts, great snowmaking, half pipe.  I liked asc.


----------



## lobster-catcher (Jan 22, 2022)

RichT said:


> I went to get a cup of soup today at Hunter...........$11.50! Eat me! I left it on the counter and walked out!


Burn their food and beverage revenues... *#notadime* bring anything you need.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 22, 2022)

Phone free zone...liftline photos..thats it..plus...its bs...what are they going to do..throw you off the hill for looking at your phone?


----------



## ctdubl07 (Jan 23, 2022)

Crested Butte resource?
Family heading out there for Feb break. 
Could you folks suggest a good/similar forum that focuses on CO resorts where I can start gathering information and advice?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Edd (Jan 23, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> Crested Butte resource?
> Family heading out there for Feb break.
> Could you folks suggest a good/similar forum that focuses on CO resorts where I can start gathering information and advice?
> Thanks in advance.











						Forums
					

SkiTalk.com is the leader in ski reviews, news, and discussion. Our reviews are interactive, allowing consumers, retailers, and manufacturers to discuss gear with our testers. Our forums include a wide range of skiing topics and even biking discussion, particularly in the off-season.




					www.skitalk.com


----------



## Mainer (Jan 23, 2022)

No triple again at attitash


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 23, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> Crested Butte resource?
> Family heading out there for Feb break.
> Could you folks suggest a good/similar forum that focuses on CO resorts where I can start gathering information and advice?
> Thanks in advance.


I've skied Crested Butte recently, what would you like to know?


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> No triple again at attitash



It’s running as of 30 minutes ago.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

Vail sucks.  This doesn’t.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 23, 2022)

I think we're gonna have to endure Vail for a lot longer. Summer will roll around and the marketing machine will spin up interest for next season. If we get a period of post omicron (or post next covid mutation) optimism people will buy in for 22/23. Maybe new suckers, maybe repeat suckers. But the money will keep coming in for a few more years IMO. And as others have said they're sitting on a shitload of cash. It'll take a long time for that ship to sink.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 23, 2022)

I hope they have the money to get a lot of infrastructure work done first. Some of their places really need it.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> View attachment 52818Vail sucks.  This doesn’t.



No it does not!  Look for a Jason in a mango coat one of these days and say hi!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 23, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I hope they have the money to get a lot of infrastructure work done first. Some of their places really need it.


Yep build that HSQ to the top of Attitash first!


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 23, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Yep build that HSQ to the top of Attitash first!


Hopefully.  It's only been talked about for 10 years, at least....


----------



## ctdubl07 (Jan 23, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> I've skied Crested Butte recently, what would you like to know?


Thank you. I dont want to hijack the thread so Im cool with a message but fiorst 2 things that come to mind are:

- rental shop with wide(r) selection of quality skis (and boards). Prefer to support a local shop than skirentals.com/vail 
- referral to an operator who offers guided tours of the Mtn. (Im a firm believer in using consultants for things I want to maximize and am not an expert in)

We have food, lodging, logistics and some extracuricular activties fairly dialed in. Just need to dial in above. thanks


----------



## Tonyr (Jan 23, 2022)

Those are more business specific questions that I couldn't help you with that much. We brought our own skis and skied without a guide when we were there. The rental shop within the Elevation Hotel and Spa looked good though. The employees were always very nice to us when we picked up and dropped off our skis overnight everyday. The ski shop is literally right out in front of the main lift. Below is a link to their website, good luck your going to love Crested Butte.....





__





						25% Off Crested Butte Ski & Snowboard Rentals | Butte & Co
					

Book Crested Butte ski rentals at Butte & Co online to save 25% on reservations made online! We offer 2 convenient Mt. Crested Butte locations.




					www.crestedbutteskirentals.com


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 23, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Yep build that HSQ to the top of Attitash first!


If we're spending Vail's money, make it a six pack.


----------



## machski (Jan 23, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Hopefully.  It's only been talked about for 10 years, at least....


Yes, but to my knowledge, no previous ower has even taken the step to apply to the NFS.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 23, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> If we're spending Vail's money, make it a six pack.



If this were to happen I would recommend Vail charge entry to the viewing platform at  Attitash summit. I would pay good money to have a 360 degree view of a fully loaded six-pack empty into that trail network.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 23, 2022)

This could be completely wrong. But I wonder if the  attitash gm that resigned, applied for the forest service application without vail’s approval. Hence the out of the blue resignation.


----------



## ss20 (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> This could be completely wrong. But I wonder if the  attitash gm that resigned, applied for the forest service application without vail’s approval. Hence the out of the blue resignation.



That would be an incredible F U to corporate... I would like to wish that was the case.  

Or corporate told him he had to install the lift with his summer staff team...so himself and a couple 20-somethings.


----------



## urungus (Jan 23, 2022)

Went to Pats Peak for the first time ever this afternoon and had a great time.  Was worried about crowding since it was sold out, and it was busy, but they had 3 lifts going to the top, Hurricane Triple and Vortex Double were pretty much ski on and the Summit Triple had maybe a 5 minute wait.

On way home I was planning on hitting Crotched for an hour, never been there either, and I figured near end of day Sunday it would have emptied out a bit.  However the line for the Rocket chair was enormous !   I didn’t even bother getting out of the car,  bailed completely and went home.


----------



## machski (Jan 23, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> If this were to happen I would recommend Vail charge entry to the viewing platform at  Attitash summit. I would pay good money to have a 360 degree view of a fully loaded six-pack empty into that trail network.


Remember though they could order a 6 pack without a full complement of chairs, IE limiting capacity to say 1800 to 2000 SPH.  This has been done before, IRC I believe Ragged did this with their 6 pack when they first installed it.  A few years later they ordered the extra chairs to bring it to full capacity.  Vail could do the same once they progress to applying for and getting approval for additional terrain off the summit.


----------



## machski (Jan 23, 2022)

urungus said:


> Went to Pats Peak for the first time ever this afternoon and had a great time.  Was worried about crowding since it was sold out, and it was busy, but they had 3 lifts going to the top, Hurricane Triple and Vortex Double were pretty much ski on and the Summit Triple had maybe a 5 minute wait.
> 
> On way home I was planning on hitting Crotched for an hour, never been there either, and I figured near end of day Sunday it would have emptied out a bit.  However the line for the Rocket chair was enormous !   I didn’t even bother getting out of the car,  bailed completely and went home.


Did they have Valley spinning too or did you not notice?


----------



## urungus (Jan 23, 2022)

machski said:


> Did they have Valley spinning too or did you not notice?


Edit:
It seems both Pats Peak and Crotched have a chairlift named “Valley” !
But only one ”Valley” lift was running today, guess which


----------



## urungus (Jan 23, 2022)

Update:  Crotched tweeted at 2:51 that Vally was now open, but I had bailed a little while before that.


----------



## machski (Jan 23, 2022)

urungus said:


> Update:  Crotched tweeted at 2:51 that Vally was now open, but I had bailed a little while before that.


Why bother at 2:51p?  They are only open til 5pm tonight.  Pathetic, glad I'm at the River.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 23, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> If this were to happen I would recommend Vail charge entry to the viewing platform at  Attitash summit. I would pay good money to have a 360 degree view of a fully loaded six-pack empty into that trail network.


Honestly it's a better trail network with better skiers than Sugar Mtn NC, which has, during night skiing, only one narrow blue off the summit being fed by a HS6 and a double. As long as they also bump up the snowmaking a bit to go with the new lift it'll be fine. 

But this is Vail so they might just get a fixed grip quad "as part of an incremental upgrade strategy" or some crap.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 23, 2022)

A fixed quad would be fine. Just needs to be a little faster and not break down. But if you aren’t going to blow snow or run all the lifts, the mountain is still going to suck.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2022)

I think a chair that length really needs to be a high speed chair.  It's 6200 feet long.  I believe even with a conveyor load, a Fixed Grip quad maxes out at 450 feet per minute.  So still almost a 14 minute ride.  I'll take a six minute ride thank you


----------



## drjeff (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> This could be completely wrong. But I wonder if the  attitash gm that resigned, applied for the forest service application without vail’s approval. Hence the out of the blue resignation.


Highly doubt that was true, as given the vast amount of detail that has to be included with the application, this isn't something that just gets submitted on a whim.

Typically it's a month's long process to get all of the needed engineering and environmental documentation needed to complete the permit application


----------



## drjeff (Jan 23, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think a chair that length really needs to be a high speed chair.  It's 6200 feet long.  I believe even with a conveyor load, a Fixed Grip quad maxes out at 450 feet per minute.  So still almost a 14 minute ride.  I'll take a six minute ride thank you



Agree!

The majority of the masses, whom buy most of the tickets and utilize ski area rentals, lessons and food and beverage options tend to frown upon most any lift that has a ride time of 10 minutes or longer, with the exception of maybe a few select gondolas


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

ss20 said:


> No it does not!  Look for a Jason in a mango coat one of these days and say hi!


Any guy who quotes Snowmonster must be a good guy.  He is a close friend.  I miss him.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

urungus said:


> Edit:
> It seems both Pats Peak and Crotched have a chairlift named “Valley” !
> But only one ”Valley” lift was running today, guess which


The much older one at the smaller ski area was open.  Shows you that bigger is not always better.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> This could be completely wrong. But I wonder if the  attitash gm that resigned, applied for the forest service application without vail’s approval. Hence the out of the blue resignation.


Highly doubt it.  I believe that the name on the application was from someone who was at Vail Central HQ.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 23, 2022)

I believe it was signed by Greg Gavrilets the former gm. The application appeared on the internet and the gm resigned the next day. Also when epic announced all the lift upgrades, they never mentioned replacing the triple. Only mentioned the replacing of double double. I don’t believe vail has publicly announced Triple replacement yet. They seem the type of place to say we planned on replacing triple but forest service wouldn’t approve.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I believe it was signed by Greg Gavrilets the former gm. The application appeared on the internet and the gm resigned the next day. Also when epic announced all the lift upgrades, they never mentioned replacing the triple. Only mentioned the replacing of double double. I don’t believe vail has publicly announced Triple replacement yet. They seem the type of place to say we planned on replacing triple but forest service wouldn’t approve.


True on the timing and weird PR aspects.

I'm seeing that it was submitted on September 2, 2021 and signed by James Innes.  He indicated it was appropriate for "Small Projects Day" review, which I imagine is probably an expedited process. 



			https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/117189_FSPLT3_5750594.pdf


----------



## drjeff (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I believe it was signed by Greg Gavrilets the former gm. The application appeared on the internet and the gm resigned the next day. Also when epic announced all the lift upgrades, they never mentioned replacing the triple. Only mentioned the replacing of double double. I don’t believe vail has publicly announced Triple replacement yet. They seem the type of place to say we planned on replacing triple but forest service wouldn’t approve.



In past years, Vail will often end up installing more lifts than they announce in November.

So if they do replace the triple for next season, wouldn't be an unprecedented thing that it wasn't on their initial list of new lifts for next season


----------



## cdskier (Jan 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> True on the timing and weird PR aspects.
> 
> I'm seeing that it was submitted on September 2, 2021 and signed by James Innes.  He indicated it was appropriate for "Small Projects Day" review, which I imagine is probably an expedited process.
> 
> ...


James Innes is the district ranger for the Forest Service in that region...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> James Innes is the district ranger for the Forest Service in that region...


Makes sense I guess considering it is USFS owned land.  I see that the now former Attitash GM was listed as the contact.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 23, 2022)

A mountain host at Attitash told me that they are expecting an ops crew of 12 to arrive this week from Tahoe to assist. Any truth to this?


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## Mainer (Jan 23, 2022)

__





						Streamlining small-project review during Small Projects Day | US Forest Service
					






					www.fs.usda.gov
				




  It seems like this application is the quick form. The whole timing could be coincidence, as the gm got a new job immediately. But something seems off.
  Skied king pine today, 100% open. So tiny, but the kids were entertained. I’ve gotten to the point were my epic pass Is just a sunk cost, and it’s funny how bad they suck. Wildcat blew snow on Thursday and Friday of this week and they might be it for January’s effort. 2 days all month of snowmaking. 1 top to bottom snowmaking trail open almost February. Every non epic mountain in the mwv seems back to normal, atticat


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would think USFS would have made a decision already......


----------



## snoseek (Jan 23, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> A mountain host at Attitash told me that they are expecting an ops crew of 12 to arrive this week from Tahoe to assist. Any truth to this?


Man Imagine working at Kirkwood for the winter and getting shipped to Attitash. Hope they get paid at least.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Man Imagine working at Kirkwood for the winter and getting shipped to Attitash. Hope they get paid at least.


Seems a little late.  One of the articles I posted indicated they were shipping staff from Heavenly up to Stevens Pass in order to deal with their staffing issues.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Seems a little late.  One of the articles I posted indicated they were shipping staff from Heavenly up to Stevens Pass in order to deal with their staffing issues.


So now Heavenly will have staffing shortages instead? Maybe they figure the skiers there will make less of a fuss about it.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 24, 2022)

This is getting nuts...


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 24, 2022)

Maybe Heavenly is staffed appropriately?  Or appropriately enough that they can send some up there?  IDK...   While in general I think Vail is failing miserably, Id also like to think that some longer time staff still work throughout and can run a resort reasonably.   My small hill in PA seems to be staffed appropriately and operating appropriately.  Crazing that we actually have J1s working here doing lifts.  

I think Vail got caught with their pants down on the hiring thing and in typical corporate fashion didn't want to or couldn't move fast enough to make changes to make sure they were staffed appropriately in all markets.


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Highly doubt that was true, as given the vast amount of detail that has to be included with the application, this isn't something that just gets submitted on a whim.
> 
> Typically it's a month's long process to get all of the needed engineering and environmental documentation needed to complete the permit application


How does one get an actual copy of the application and check status?


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## snoseek (Jan 24, 2022)

Heavenly is such a huge resort with a enormous staff they can probably absorb some of this and be ok.


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## IceEidolon (Jan 24, 2022)

Heavenly is probably done with snowmaking - though maybe not with wrapup - and can send parts of their snowmaking crew out without shorting other departments.


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## MadKitty (Jan 24, 2022)

Several snowmakers from crested butte were at wildcat today. Word is they will be here for about a week. I miss only having to share employees with Attitash. 

How long until all Vail's snowmakers are J1 slaves they rotate around they country?


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## drjeff (Jan 24, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Several snowmakers from crested butte were at wildcat today. Word is they will be here for about a week. I miss only having to share employees with Attitash.
> 
> How long until all Vail's snowmakers are J1 slaves they rotate around they country?



Probably far less liability risk to have experienced crews brought in than train up folks who haven't made snow before. 

Let alone the fact that those other crews very may well have other important things within the Vail liability system, such as certification on snowmobile operation, as well.

Ideal? Nope

The "easier" stop gap solution to a big problem? Maybe


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## MadKitty (Jan 24, 2022)

Or they could just pay people. Seems to work for Sunday River!


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## cdskier (Jan 24, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Or they could just pay people. Seems to work for Sunday River!


Pretty crazy that Vail will pay to fly people across the US to make snow, yet won't pay a decent competitive local rate to avoid having to do that in the first place. Will be interesting to see if they learn from this next year and adjust wages to be a bit more attractive and in line with the local market.


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2022)

So every year are Fails western resorts going to get the early season snow making then the move east when they aren't needed any more out west?


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## MadKitty (Jan 24, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> So every year are Fails western resorts going to get the early season snow making then the move east when they aren't needed any more out west?


You may have a future in the c-suite!


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 24, 2022)

Welcome to the twilight zone..


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 24, 2022)

Denver Post wants to hear about your Vail experiences 









						Amid rising customer complaints, The Denver Post wants to hear about your experience at Vail Resorts this season
					

The Denver Post wants to hear what your experience has been at Vail Resorts locations so far this season.




					www.denverpost.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> Several snowmakers from crested butte were at wildcat today. Word is they will be here for about a week. I miss only having to share employees with Attitash.
> 
> How long until all Vail's snowmakers are J1 slaves they rotate around they country?



Wonder if the Wildcat GM pressured Vail corporate for this.  He was at CB last year.  Maybe had some friends still at CB and gauged interest to see if it was a possibility


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 24, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i went to waterville for the first time a few weeks ago and my gps was set to waterville valley town, not the resort, and i wound up in a fairly massive 'town' with a shopping center and a shit ton of condos. looked like a major boston area family vacation destination to me. moreso than anywhere else i've visited in nh. i haven't ever been to bretton or attitash but i've skied the other big places a bit (cannon, loon, wildcat)


yeah that pretty much nails it. fun place though IMO. I get there once a year.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Jan 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You shouldn't be. Waterville peaked in the 80s and rested on their laurels until about 5 years ago when they added Green Peak and kinda half assed it.  They opened a terrain pod that added 30% more terrain, BUT they only moved over a 30 year old triple chair to service the new terrain.   Had they added a High Speed Quad, it would have really been a a big change to the skiing experience.  Virtually all of the ski areas in NH have invested more in improvements and expansion than Waterville has since the 80s


yeah, they f'd that up good...that lift is sloooooooooooooooooow. If I try to ride it more than twice with my kids I get open rebellion. Some of the terrain over there is very fun though. mellow blues to steep.  A quad was the way to go.


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## kendo (Jan 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder if the Wildcat GM pressured Vail corporate for this.  He was at CB last year.  Maybe had some friends still at CB and gauged interest to see if it was a possibility


Yep.  Vail's VP and COO Eastern Region (grand poobah for our area) was most recently VP & COO at Crested Butte from 9/18 to 5/21.

On Stuart's podcast he mentioned he grew up in West Texas and previous worked at Beaver Creek.  Perfect foundation for understanding the nuances of Eastern operations. 









						Podcast #60: Vail Resorts Eastern Region VP & COO Tim Baker
					

Listen now (66 min) | "We view the Eastern region as a really critical element of the future success of our company."




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 24, 2022)

kendo said:


> Yep.  Vail's VP and COO Eastern Region (grand poobah for our area) was most recently VP & COO at Crested Butte from 9/18 to 5/21.
> 
> On Stuart's podcast he mentioned he grew up in West Texas and previous worked at Beaver Creek.  Perfect foundation for understanding the nuances of Eastern operations.
> 
> ...


Look at the guys they chased away (B. Heon, Jonsey) and how good their resorts are doing so far this year...

We've actually enjoyed hitting King Pine, Black and Shawnee. Hadn't been in almost 10 years.
There's a lot to be said for friendly employees who are trying to make sure you have a good expeience.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

kendo said:


> Yep.  Vail's VP and COO Eastern Region (grand poobah for our area) was most recently VP & COO at Crested Butte from 9/18 to 5/21.
> 
> On Stuart's podcast he mentioned he grew up in West Texas and previous worked at Beaver Creek.  Perfect foundation for understanding the nuances of Eastern operations.
> 
> ...



Different guy, JD Crichton is who I'm thinking of.  He was also at CB last year as F&B Director.  He's originally from Maine, so he knows how vital snowmaking is here in the East.  So having Stuart as his boss probably helped some.  

If I were JD, I'd be inquiring with Boyne about Shawnee management positions after this year's disaster


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

So about Heavenly lending staff elsewhere









						Worth The Wait? | "Let's wait it out, I brought the winter tent." #LineToTheSendDome   👉(www.jerryoftheday.net)👈 | By Jerry of the Day | Facebook
					

79K views, 176 likes, 2 loves, 228 comments, 40 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Jerry of the Day: "Let's wait it out, I brought the winter tent." #LineToTheSendDome   👉(www.jerryoftheday.net)👈




					fb.watch


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 24, 2022)

What's the earliest they can get support crews from a western resort out here, mid December if things are going well and they can reduce their ops tempo? Where are they gonna house thermite people? What does that mean for ice, rain, and melt recovery times at midsize and smaller properties?


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail down to $279.16.  Good work guys!


You should have waited till the end of day...


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> What's the earliest they can get support crews from a western resort out here, mid December if things are going well and they can reduce their ops tempo? Where are they gonna house thermite people? What does that mean for ice, rain, and melt recovery times at midsize and smaller properties?


Much more importantly, if you were a ski bum who makes snow at CB, would you like to be flown "out east" for a few weeks in the prime of your home mountain's prime season? 

Or Would you quit and go work for another mountain that doesn't "rotate" you to the ice coast?


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## drjeff (Jan 24, 2022)

abc said:


> Much more importantly, if you were a ski bum who makes snow at CB, would you like to be flown "out east" for a few weeks in the prime of your home mountain's prime season?
> 
> Or Would you quit and go work for another mountain that doesn't "rotate" you to the ice coast?



Given that out West a snowmakers season tends to end a good month or so sooner most seasons than it does for an Eastern (or even Midwest) snowmaker, who knows? 

If these rumors/reports are true, then these folks coming East, if they're not already full time Vail Resort mtn ops employees (and some may very well be just that) then they're adding to their income, probably also getting however many weeks of free lodging and some other types of stipends, and getting to do what so many of them enjoy on a level that many who haven't done it themselves can't fully grasp, which is being outside on a mountain making snow.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

Well, the New England Ski Museum decided to give Wildcat some much needed love.


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Given that out West a snowmakers season tends to end a good month or so sooner most seasons than it does for an Eastern (or even Midwest) snowmaker, who knows?
> 
> If these rumors/reports are true, then these folks coming East, if they're not already full time Vail Resort mtn ops employees (and some may very well be just that) then they're adding to their income, probably also getting however many weeks of free lodging and some other types of stipends, and getting to do what so many of them enjoy on a level that many who haven't done it themselves can't fully grasp, which is being outside on a mountain making snow.


You're assuming those people care more about making snow, but not so much about skiing it?

Besides, what rumor did you hear about extra pay?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

abc said:


> You're assuming those people care more about making snow, but not so much about skiing it?
> 
> Besides, what rumor did you hear about extra pay?



Ever get to know any snowmakers?  A lot of them are super into it.  Many don't even ski at all.  It's not inconceivable Vail gave some of these folks a choice of a nice package to head East for a few weeks or stay and do some other mountain ops job like bumping chairs or parking cars that they have zero interest in.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2022)

How do we know they are sending snow makers?  Obviously the position of need, but maybe they're sending others to free up the "home" snow making staff that might be working other positions.


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## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

abc said:


> You're assuming those people care more about making snow, but not so much about skiing it?
> 
> Besides, what rumor did you hear about extra pay?



By extra pay, I was referring to working a longer season, not more per hour.

As I said, most Western snowmaking crews are already done for the season. As DHS said in his post, many of them, if they are still on Vail's payroll, may be doing other jobs such as bumping chairs or scanning passes or running parking lots.

By potentially coming East to make snow for a few weeks, that may very well be far more enticing than bumping chairs, etc.  For many a snowmaker it's a true passion that they have, and not just a job. I understand that that might be a tough thing for some people to grasp. I am sure that there are a few people who have chimed in on this thread who could speak to this far better than I can


----------



## MogulMonsters (Jan 25, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> How do we know they are sending snow makers?  Obviously the position of need, but maybe they're sending others to free up the "home" snow making staff that might be working other positions.


Rumors were in fact very true!  This morning's snow report from Attitash:








						Snow & Weather Report | Attitash Mountain Resort
					






					www.attitash.com
				




On this lovely Tuesday, January 25th, 2022, four lifts will operate from 09:00 AM – 4:00 PM, Summit Triple, Learning Center, Snowbelt, and the Flying Bear. 



We received a couple of inches overnight. Today, expect the weather to be much warmer than it has been, with temps getting up to 29 degrees in the base areas by 3 PM and snow showers with less than an inch of accumulation. 



Bear Peak will have Avenger and Upper Kachina open with natural snow and no grooming. Attitash Peak will have Carrigan, Turkey Chute, Middle Highway, and White Horse open with natural snow and no grooming. If you choose to enjoy these trails, plan on expert snow sliding with early seasons conditions. 



We have no race training anywhere today, and we’ve groomed all trails with people-made snow.



* Snowmaking is working on Lower Saco/Ammo, Grandstand/Lower Moat, and moving off Trillium/Moonbeam to Wandering Skis. Thanks to our sister resorts, Heavenly, Vail, Crested Butte, and Northstar, we can run all three systems, sending snowmakers to support our team. If you see jackets from other resorts today, give them a high-five!*

  We should have a new mantra.  See a snowmaker?  Bring em' a beer and say THANK YOU!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2022)

I give Vail credit for sending staff but the reality is it's nearly too late...


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## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Rumors were in fact very true!  This morning's snow report from Attitash:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, I try and do this most anytime I see a snowmaker on the hill.  They create a product we all love so we can do the sport we all love, and often they get little to no acknowledgement  from the public for doing so.  If you see them out on the hill, just a quick stop, a thumbs up and a thank you will always get a positive reaction from them in my experiences


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## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I give Vail credit for sending staff but the reality is it's nearly too late...


Gotta get Pres Week in good shape, and then soon there after the likely announcment of the 22-23 Epic pass prices in early/mid March.  If the masses start seeing some good snowmaking efforts quantity wise, that may indeed leave them with the desire to re-up their Epic passes for next season and forget a bit about how the season started


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Gotta get Pres Week in good shape, and then soon there after the likely announcment of the 22-23 Epic pass prices in early/mid March.  If the masses start seeing some good snowmaking efforts quantity wise, that may indeed leave them with the desire to re-up their Epic passes for next season and forget a bit about how the season started



Probably true for many

But as it's said, fool me once.....

I need to see Vail return their NH properties to a Peak level of operational competence at minimum.

What that means is by Christmas week

Wildcat: the three primary snowmaking routes off the summit, the beginner area and Wild Kitten all ready to go.

Attitash: multiple routes off both peaks and the two connected.  Both the Yankee and Summit chair running everyday of the season that there is terrain available off them.  The Abanaki quad running all weekends and holidays. 

Crotched: 75% of terrain available by Christmas week, Valley chair running all weekends and holidays

Sunapee: multiple routes off Summit, Sun Bowl and North Peak chairs, Beginner area also ready to go. 

Given the money Vail makes the above should be easier for them to achieve than what Peak regularly could.  If they don't, my opinion remains they're more interested in maintaining share value than delivering a great product to the customers and I will continue to spend elsewhere.


----------



## abc (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Ever get to know any snowmakers?  A lot of them are super into it.  Many don't even ski at all.  It's not inconceivable Vail gave some of these folks a choice of a nice package to head East for a few weeks or stay and do some other mountain ops job like bumping chairs or parking cars that they have zero interest in.


I only know of one, out at Colorado (not a Vail mountain). He's a skier in heart. Snow making allows him to get paid when there's no natural snow, ski when the natural snow comes. Clearly, one snowmaker doesn't represent all snowmakers. 

But, if a snowmaker really loves making snow, he would be short changed doing it out west. It would be more interesting to live in the east and make snow for a good long part of the winter. However, a skier and a snowmaker will have more skiing time out west, at the expense of shorter working season. So when someone chose to be a snowmaker out west, he may not be that interested to spend a chunk of his skier time not skiing, or skiing packed down man made snow when he could have been skiing powder! 

Obviously, there're both kinds out there. Some will be enticed to move around throughout the season. However, how many snowmakers Vail need in the east? And how many of them in their western mountains are willing to be "rotated" east each and every year?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

I don't know what to tell you abc other than there are snowmakers from CB, Vail, Northstar and Heavenly all working in NH this week.  Whether that becomes a regular thing each winter we don't know yet. 

And the notion that they'd choose to live here full time each winter just to make snow for a handful of additional weeks is kind of silly.  Most of these guys and girls are laborers in the trades in the warmer months; carpenters, landscapers etc.  That's when they make most of their annual income.  They choose snowmaking in the winter as it's fun and their primary income source isn't available.  Not a lot of people want to move seasonally.  So, they pick what works best for them on a year round basis. 

 I don't think you understand the demographic well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't know what to tell you abc other than there are snowmakers from CB, Vail, Northstar and Heavenly all working in NH this week.  Whether that becomes a regular thing each winter we don't know yet.
> 
> And the notion that they'd choose to live here full time each winter just to make snow for a handful of additional weeks is kind of silly.  Most of these guys and girls are laborers in the trades in the warmer months; carpenters, landscapers etc.  That's when they make most of their annual income.  They choose snowmaking in the winter as it's fun and their primary income source isn't available.  Not a lot of people want to move seasonally.  So, they pick what works best for them on a year round basis.
> 
> I don't think you understand the demographic well.


Well....there are a few snowmakers I've seen out here who are from South America/Australia/New Zealand and do it year round by working in the northern hemisphere during our winter and in the southern hemisphere during our summer.  So that could be some of this crew (I believe the ones I have seen worked for Deer Valley or one of the resort chains).  But you are right that a good portion of them move trades in the warmer months.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

I haven't had a chance to listen, but this could be somewhat interesting. Looks like the Storm Skiing Podcast interviewed Katz himself yesterday.









						Podcast #71: Vail Resorts Executive Chairperson of the Board Rob Katz
					

Listen now (97 min) | “The people who ski all of our resorts … need to feel like they are getting a good experience, and if they don’t, then our company is not successful.”




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Gotta get Pres Week in good shape, and then soon there after the likely announcment of the 22-23 Epic pass prices in early/mid March.  If the masses start seeing some good snowmaking efforts quantity wise, that may indeed leave them with the desire to re-up their Epic passes for next season and forget a bit about how the season started


I get what you are saying, but blowing two out of three crucial times for eastern skiing is usually a financial disaster for a NE ski area.  People do have short memories, but I don't think that they will be that short.  I would imagine a fair number will leave.  How many is yet to be seen as AZ is a narrow portion of the market and obviously not Vail's target customer.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Probably true for many
> 
> But as it's said, fool me once.....
> 
> ...



It would be nice if this season showed them that if say historically they need 50,000 employees (just randomly throwing that number out there as I have no clue what the actual number is) to operate all of their properties in a way that their guests expect, that they can't do it with say 35,000 employees, and regardless of what it takes, that they do need to make some changes into their employment and staffing ways, even if short term it increases their overhead, since longterm no action will more than likely have a far worse affect on their balance sheet. And then make the changes needed.  

They do have a plethora of employees who are very passionate about the mountains that they work at, , and giving them the proper support they need, is going to more than likely have a positive ripple effect for their customer base.  Hopefully the folks in the board room in Broomfield will get that while snow and lifts are the coomon thread among all of their resorts, the operational style need to succesfully run an Eastern and Western resort do indeed have some important differences.

Heck, even seeing some of the CO based corporate folks in the East occasionally, along with say a resort GM out helping scan passes to see how their boardroom decsions made 2k miles away, might be the type of thing that *could* bring some more tangible positive changes to so many ski areas that we in the East grew up with and love.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I haven't had a chance to listen, but this could be somewhat interesting. Looks like the Storm Skiing Podcast interviewed Katz himself yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I now know what I will be listening to this afternoon as I spend about 2:30 in the car drivng over and back to a highschool ski race at Mount Southington later today!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 25, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Rumors were in fact very true!  This morning's snow report from Attitash:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty cool. Too little too late? Depends on how the weather plays out for the rest of the season. Good gesture though.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> It would be nice if this season showed them that if say historically they need 50,000 employees (just randomly throwing that number out there as I have no clue what the actual number is) to operate all of their properties in a way that their guests expect, that they can't do it with say 35,000 employees, and regardless of what it takes, that they do need to make some changes into their employment and staffing ways, even if short term it increases their overhead, since longterm no action will more than likely have a far worse affect on their balance sheet. And then make the changes needed.


Yeah I think we all hope that but I imagine that corporate will look at this and say, "our problem was all COVID" and next year try to see what they can get away with.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Pretty cool. Too little too late? Depends on how the weather plays out for the rest of the season. Good gesture though.



I get the impression that if you give the crews a decent 2 weeks or so of temps, that they can make a significant impact on the trail count.  Now if they could just keep the triple at Attitash running to access some of the snow the crews will likely make, that would really be a miracle!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I think we all hope that but I imagine that corporate will look at this and say, "our problem was all COVID" and next year try to see what they can get away with.


I think (or at minimum certainly hope) that you're starting to see more and more across a greater portion of society that folks are realizing that the phrase "our problem was all COVID" is just an excuse, and an excuse that less and less people are believing still, for passing off changes that various entities didn't/don't want to make since it would entail to some degree owning that some recent actions taken in the last 2 years likely weren't either needed at all or at minimum for as long as they may have been left in place.


----------



## abc (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I think we all hope that but I imagine that corporate will look at this and say, "our problem was all COVID" and next year try to see what they can get away with.





drjeff said:


> I think (or at minimum certainly hope) that you're starting to see more and more across a greater portion of society that folks are realizing that the phrase "our problem was all COVID" is just an excuse, and an excuse that less and less people are believing still, for passing off changes that various entities didn't/don't want to make since it would entail to some degree owning that some recent actions taken in the last 2 years likely weren't either needed at all or at minimum for as long as they may have been left in place.


The past 2 years had caused some significant changes in the society.

Sadly, many people are still thinking we will "go back to normal", the way thing were 2 years ago. Some of those people are also decision makers. So those are the business that will use the "our problem was all COVID" and do nothing differently going forward. Granted, there're also customers who share that "this is just Covid" and still expect everything will go back to what it was pre-2020. They will be the ones who stuck it out with the underperformer. 

For the rest who understand things will be different, it's not so much whether they will or will not accept those excuses. It has more to do whether there're other options they could go to instead of being stuck with the underperforming entity they've been with. 

When it comes to skiing specifically, those of us not having property attached to a specific mountain with no other nearby competition will simply not go back to Vail. Vail may improve, or not, or it may not happen till several years down the road. If so, I'll come back in a few years. But I don't need to insist on being the victim of their on-going fiasco.


----------



## Edd (Jan 25, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I haven't had a chance to listen, but this could be somewhat interesting. Looks like the Storm Skiing Podcast interviewed Katz himself yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“The people who ski all of our resorts … need to feel like they are getting a good experience, and if they don’t, then our company is not successful.”

Quote from Katz above. Per that statement they’ve fully shit the bed at Wildcat on every level.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 25, 2022)

Edd said:


> “The people who ski all of our resorts … need to feel like they are getting a good experience, and if they don’t, then our company is not successful.”
> 
> Quote from Katz above. Per that statement they’ve fully shit the bed at Wildcat on every level.



Another wrinkle that may be specific to Wildcat in Vail's New England portfolio: the folks coming from Okemo/Snow/Stowe have an expectation of recreational skiing that Wildcat could not support without blowing up it's current "grit" culture and heritage. Going back to the "square peg, round hole" analogy, how does Wildcat fit into the Vail idea of a "resort". At least the other NH mountains when fully operational have more of a full service feel to them.

Managing expectations across the different properties in Vail's portfolio is important I think.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Another wrinkle that may be specific to Wildcat in Vail's New England portfolio: the folks coming from Okemo/Snow/Stowe have an expectation of recreational skiing that Wildcat could not support without blowing up it's current "grit" culture and heritage. Going back to the "square peg, round hole" analogy, how does Wildcat fit into the Vail idea of a "resort". At least the other NH mountains when fully operational have more of a full service feel to them.
> 
> Managing expectations across the different properties in Vail's portfolio is important I think.


And Katz's response last year was to resign.  What does that tell you about how he thought things were going?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Another wrinkle that may be specific to Wildcat in Vail's New England portfolio: the folks coming from Okemo/Snow/Stowe have an expectation of recreational skiing that Wildcat could not support without blowing up it's current "grit" culture and heritage. Going back to the "square peg, round hole" analogy, how does Wildcat fit into the Vail idea of a "resort". At least the other NH mountains when fully operational have more of a full service feel to them.
> 
> Managing expectations across the different properties in Vail's portfolio is important I think.


It's funny, my greatest fear when Vail took over Wildcat was they'd neuter the place with snowmaking on places I don't want to see it like Upper Wildcat, Cougar etc and groom the hell out of the place.  I thought Peak had the right mix of snowmaking and grooming vs natural terrain at Cat.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Different guy, JD Crichton is who I'm thinking of.  He was also at CB last year as F&B Director.  He's originally from Maine, so he knows how vital snowmaking is here in the East.  So having Stuart as his boss probably helped some.
> 
> If I were JD, I'd be inquiring with Boyne about Shawnee management positions after this year's disaster





drjeff said:


> Honestly, I try and do this most anytime I see a snowmaker on the hill.  They create a product we all love so we can do the sport we all love, and often they get little to no acknowledgement  from the public for doing so.  If you see them out on the hill, just a quick stop, a thumbs up and a thank you will always get a positive reaction from them in my experiences


Ran in to a couple of them in Delaney's last night.
Let's just say that they aren't all lovey dovey over their new temporary assignments..
They were told 2 weeks initially......


----------



## snoseek (Jan 25, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Ran in to a couple of them in Delaney's last night.
> Let's just say that they aren't all lovey dovey over their new temporary assignments..
> They were told 2 weeks initially......


As somebody that did quite a few years of hard time with this company this right here sounds like reality lol.

Anyhow I am glad they are making some kind of effort. I think dhs list of operations is a good baseline. If they did all that they get my money. If they did 80 percent of that they get my money. I just assume they get their shit together, figure out the balance with pricing/volume vs fail.


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 25, 2022)

While it's nice they sent in snowmakers for the sake of this season's skiing product I do not like the precedent this sets. The excel monkeys in Broomfield may get the idea to have mobile snowmaking crews move around as needed. Wouldn't surprise me if they sub snowmaking out to a third party to avoid paying benefits too. Might look great in a spreadsheet but will be a disaster when every Vail area in VT, NH, NY and PA needs resurfacing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> While it's nice they sent in snowmakers for the sake of this season's skiing product I do not like the precedent this sets. The excel monkeys in Broomfield may get the idea to have mobile snowmaking crews move around as needed. Wouldn't surprise me if they sub snowmaking out to a third party to avoid paying benefits too. Might look great in a spreadsheet but will be a disaster when every Vail area in VT, NH, NY and PA needs resurfacing.


Don't give the MBA's in Colorado any ideas!


----------



## MadKitty (Jan 25, 2022)

snoseek said:


> As somebody that did quite a few years of hard time with this company this right here sounds like reality lol.
> 
> Anyhow I am glad they are making some kind of effort. I think dhs list of operations is a good baseline. If they did all that they get my money. If they did 80 percent of that they get my money. I just assume they get their shit together, figure out the balance with pricing/volume vs fail.


I assume they get worse and worse and try to become as terrible/profitable as comcast. Notice how much better the product is at the privately owned resorts, they don't focus on the quarterly profits BS like Vail does.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 25, 2022)

abc said:


> You're assuming those people care more about making snow, but not so much about skiing it?
> 
> Besides, what rumor did you hear about extra pay?


Vail'd absolutely pay more to bring in outside snowmakers if they thought they were vulnerable to unionization.

There are absolutely snowmakers that are in it for the snowmaking more than the skiing. Many are in it because it's a job that pays (barely) enough and rewards effort, swearing, initiative, hijinks, skill, and action. If you're in a job for the pass, don't pick a job that works seven days a week, 12 hours a day, with the potential for snow removal duty on powder days.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jan 25, 2022)

MadKitty said:


> While it's nice they sent in snowmakers for the sake of this season's skiing product I do not like the precedent this sets. The excel monkeys in Broomfield may get the idea to have mobile snowmaking crews move around as needed. Wouldn't surprise me if they sub snowmaking out to a third party to avoid paying benefits too. Might look great in a spreadsheet but will be a disaster when every Vail area in VT, NH, NY and PA needs resurfacing.


Are there even any contractors out there that would make snow? And even if one happened to form, Vail could pay their snowmakers 50/hour with union benefits and a pension and still be saving money.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 25, 2022)

How about that snow report. Gave info, had a personal touch. Attitash used to be able to open the whole mountain in a month. Shouldn’t take long for a full crew to open the rest up. Hopefully rock bottom was Saturday with just the yankee open and 3 trails (1 was closed for racing though)
Lifts tickets were $104


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 25, 2022)

Mainer said:


> How about that snow report. Gave info, had a personal touch. Attitash used to be able to open the whole mountain in a month. Shouldn’t take long for a full crew to open the rest up. Hopefully rock bottom was Saturday with just the yankee open and 3 trails (1 was closed for racing though)
> Lifts tickets were $104


Best Attitash snow report of the year.


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 25, 2022)

There are snowmaking services contractors. Some of the guys who work both hemispheres are contractors, and some help with the first month or two out west and go east for the season after - but most places don't use contractors or only hire a couple. It's far less common than handling things in house.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 25, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Ran in to a couple of them in Delaney's last night.
> Let's just say that they aren't all lovey dovey over their new temporary assignments..
> They were told 2 weeks initially......



Delaneys back to seven days? That is good news, thought they were closed mondays.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Are there even any contractors out there that would make snow? And even if one happened to form, Vail could pay their snowmakers 50/hour with union benefits and a pension and still be saving money.


I don't know of any, but someone inside Vail could theoretically "create" such company (or convince someone outside to do so) and then proceed.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2022)

Sounds like I need to start a snowmaking contracting business.  I don't know shit about snowmaking, but I am a quick learner!


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## 2Planker (Jan 25, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Delaneys back to seven days? That is good news, thought they were closed mondays.


OOps,  You are right.
Musta been Sunday eve, Place was packed w/ disgruntled Attitash victims


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

2Planker said:


> OOps,  You are right.
> Musta been Sunday eve, Place was packed w/ disgruntled Attitash victims


How many "Vail Sucks" stickers were there?


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## 2Planker (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> How many "Vail Sucks" stickers were there?


See them more & more around town....


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 25, 2022)

Didnt Hunter set up snow making in other resorts and train the people..many moons ago....
They used to be one of the best at it...


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 25, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Sounds like I need to start a snowmaking contracting business.  I don't know shit about snowmaking, but I am a quick learner!


Get a big enough IPO and offer housing and half decent pay and you can poach Vail'd existing crew and force them to hire you. Genius plan, and you stay in the HQ handling HR/PR (you're giving snowmakers money, there will be PR problems).


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

Uh oh.....









						Vail Resorts Property Posts About Cheap Weekday Tickets, But They Aren't Open On Weekdays This Season...
					

The faithful skiers and snowboarders of Alpine Valley in Geauga County, Ohio are just a little bit confused by a recent Facebook post from the resort. Alpine Valley is not open Monday-Thursday this…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Edd (Jan 25, 2022)

I listened to the podcast. There were a few good questions about NH ski areas being a shitshow but Katz dodged everything. 

The worst was that he was asked point blank why Pat’s Peak is crushing Crotched from an operational standpoint. He went on about not knowing about every single ski area. Fuck him, he’s a destructive force in the ski industry.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2022)

Good article talking about Stowe problems









						Vail stock falls: Capacity, staffing problems at Stowe
					

On the night before Christmas, not a snow gun was stirring at Stowe Mountain Resort.




					www.vtcng.com


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## machski (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well....there are a few snowmakers I've seen out here who are from South America/Australia/New Zealand and do it year round by working in the northern hemisphere during our winter and in the southern hemisphere during our summer.  So that could be some of this crew (I believe the ones I have seen worked for Deer Valley or one of the resort chains).  But you are right that a good portion of them move trades in the warmer months.


^^^^^^This and consider too Vail owns the 3 largest resorts in Australia.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> It's funny, my greatest fear when Vail took over Wildcat was they'd neuter the place with snowmaking on places I don't want to see it like Upper Wildcat, Cougar etc and groom the hell out of the place.  I thought Peak had the right mix of snowmaking and grooming vs natural terrain at Cat.


Lol  I thought the same thing! And here we are…


MadKitty said:


> I assume they get worse and worse and try to become as terrible/profitable as comcast. Notice how much better the product is at the privately owned resorts, they don't focus on the quarterly profits BS like Vail does.


Yep! Look at Mountains like JH or even better, non-Ikon, non-epic pass areas. At least Ikon seems to be doing it right. 


Edd said:


> I listened to the podcast. There were a few good questions about NH ski areas being a shitshow but Katz dodged everything.
> 
> The worst was that he was asked point blank why Pat’s Peak is crushing Crotched from an operational standpoint. He went on about not knowing about every single ski area. Fuck him, he’s a destructive force in the ski industry.


If you don’t know the product you are selling you shouldn’t be the one selling it. In this case, if you don’t know about every ski area, get out! Glad he did.


----------



## machski (Jan 25, 2022)

The biggest take away from the Katz SSPC episode was that Stuart asked him if their Midwest and Eastern ski areas would go back to their previous openings and operations.  Katz said point blank, they will open smartly.  If they have to blow a ton of snow only to watch it melt and wash away prior to the Christmas holiday, they probably won't push the season that way to be "environmentally responsible.". Nice, how about financially conservative to increase profits by reducing costs, but ok screw your loyal skier's out of the long season they love.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

machski said:


> The biggest take away from the Katz SSPC episode was that Stuart asked him if their Midwest and Eastern ski areas would go back to their previous openings and operations.  Katz said point blank, they will open smartly.  If they have to blow a ton of snow only to watch it melt and wash away prior to the Christmas holiday, they probably won't push the season that way to be "environmentally responsible.". Nice, how about financially conservative to increase profits by reducing costs, but ok screw your loyal skier's out of the long season they love.



He and Vail leadership are just so incredibly clueless about the fickleness of New England weather and skier expectations.  You have to go for it starting basically 12/1.  You want to be conservative in November, ok.  That's reasonable. But come December it's full blast.  Some winters you win, some you lose.  At some point you have to throw data and spreadsheets to the wind.  The ones that do like Boyne areas, Killington, Stratton etc, or even small areas like Pats, Gunstock and Shawnee; all do well over time to build loyalty.

It seems like Vail's only strategy to build loyalty is cheap passes.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> He and Vail leadership are just so incredibly clueless about the fickleness of New England weather and skier expectations.


And the ultimate irony is that Katz himself grew up skiing at Hunter...which was historically an extremely aggressive snow-making powerhouse.


----------



## Vince (Jan 25, 2022)

Mt Snow Thurs Jan 13
Stowe Weds Jan 19
Stowe Thurs Jan 20
Sunapee Mon Jan 24
Okemo Tues Jan 25

A few observations 
1) The weekday crowds are much less this year than last year at this time.
2) All seemed to be well staffed 
3) All except Okemo were making a lot of snow the days I was there.
4) The cheap bastards are at least trying to play catch up. If it snows a foot on Saturday they should all be 100 percent open.
5) The lack of grooming becomes a plus once we get snow

I only ski weekdays so my hatred does not run quite as deep as most. They have done a good job at Sunapee. All main trails are now open. Stowe was real good and the only real legit expert skiing I have done this year. The front four and the trees were open. Mt Snow was a groomer day before it storm, but they did open the Grand Summit Express in addition to the Blue Bird when they didn't have to. Okemo only has one trail at Jackson Gore and two on the South Side so they have come up very short in terrain expansion.

In the end Vail is gonna blame all the short comings on Covid and promise to do better next year. We're gonna plug our noses and buy another Epic pass


----------



## abc (Jan 25, 2022)

Vince said:


> We're gonna plug our noses and buy another Epic pass


"We"? Who do you think "we" are?

Some of us won't buy another Epic pass next year!

That's what "we" do!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2022)

Edd said:


> I listened to the podcast. There were a few good questions about NH ski areas being a shitshow but Katz dodged everything.
> 
> The worst was that he was asked point blank why Pat’s Peak is crushing Crotched from an operational standpoint. He went on about not knowing about every single ski area. Fuck him, he’s a destructive force in the ski industry.


Pats Peak has very committed local ownership and management.  Both are very experienced and also very resourceful.  And it also helps to have a relatively small mountain to operate.  That said, they have invested a lot of money and energy into the place and it shows.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

Vince said:


> Mt Snow Thurs Jan 13
> Stowe Weds Jan 19
> Stowe Thurs Jan 20
> Sunapee Mon Jan 24
> ...



That's a respectable take.  

Where do you live Vince and what would be the alternatives to consider for your situation?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Pats Peak has very committed local ownership and management.  Both are very experienced and also very resourceful.  And it also helps to have a relatively small mountain to operate.  That said, they have invested a lot of money and energy into the place and it shows.



Exactly and correct me if I'm wrong, but your praise is probably dated a decade In terms of on property experience at Pats since moving to Utah

Have you been there since the well done base lodge expansion?   You probably haven't skied Cascade Basin either.  They nailed both those projects and kept the same quality service through growth.   That's all we want out of businesses right?


----------



## kendo (Jan 26, 2022)

Vail discounting next year's pass $150 for Steven's Pass.  "We sucked this year.  We got your money.  Our only option is to take your money again for next year."









						Vail Resorts offers discounts at Stevens Pass, calling challenges ‘unique’ compared to 36 other resorts
					

In an acknowledgment that a season pass just isn’t getting customers what it used to, Vail Resorts has discounted next season’s Stevens Pass ski pass to $385 for customers who purchased one this season.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## kendo (Jan 26, 2022)

Fine print... response from the GM Tom on FB:









... something for NH locals to look forward too?


----------



## Edd (Jan 26, 2022)

kendo said:


> Fine print... response from the GM Tom on FB:
> 
> View attachment 52857
> 
> ...


I can only hope. My wife was saying yesterday that she’d like to ski Whistler next year; she’s never been.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2022)

I saw this. 

What about the other resorts where operations are largely running as normal, but because they've sold so many damn passes they are crowded?  I can't complain about operations at my local hill other than its MLK weekend crowded every weekend.  The "experience of a lifetime"  is not spending your lifetime in a lift line.

I recognize that's never going to happen...

The more I think about this nearly all of their issues could be solved by addressing 3 items.


Raise the pass prices.  Any Die off from people too cheap can easily be offset with the increased cost.  I'm sure the Bean Counters in Broomfield could handle this forecasting.  Not to mention the folks who buy a pass to use for 1 week a year at the flagship resorts are still going to do so.
Pay more and start hiring earlier.  It seems like these are the 2 main issues with their staffing issues.   Pay might not be just hourly rate, look at adding other fringe benefits that actually matter.
Understand your local markets.   The majority of their profile is not a flagship resort in the major ski markets (CA, CO, UT).   This is probably the one thing they can "afford" to do.  You bought a bunch of feeder hills and day trip destinations.  Look back at previous operations and see what worked and made these areas successful.  You can keep the local feel and still operate within the general corporate structure.

I honestly don't think its much more complex than this.  Get these 3 things in line and other challenges will be infinitely easier to deal with.


----------



## machski (Jan 26, 2022)

Edd said:


> I can only hope. My wife was saying yesterday that she’d like to ski Whistler next year; she’s never been.


So, given the limits on what the discount applies to at Stevens, for East skier's if they did this it won't apply to Epic or Epic Local passes.  And you could only use you $150 resort credit at eastern areas, not Whistler.  So this would not help your trip there. 

All this said, I do not believe there is a NH specific pass and certainly not an AttiCat or Crotched only products.  Given VT has run much better and is accessible on the Northeast pass, I cannot see Vail tossing any discounts out here.  If you are firmly entrenched at Crotched or AttiCat, that should probably piss you off.  But they won't care.  Stevens is unique, as anything else on the Epic is quite a hike, the closest probably being Whistler.  But that isn't a simple drive and back with Covid restrictions in place.  So Vail has to do something there, not sure this will cut it.  Have a feeling they are going to lose a ton of Stevens folks, and I doubt they get many traveling there on the Epic from other regions given lack of lodging, etc.


----------



## Maple Covered Booger (Jan 26, 2022)

machski said:


> The biggest take away from the Katz SSPC episode was that Stuart asked him if their Midwest and Eastern ski areas would go back to their previous openings and operations.  Katz said point blank, they will open smartly.  If they have to blow a ton of snow only to watch it melt and wash away prior to the Christmas holiday, they probably won't push the season that way to be "environmentally responsible.". Nice, how about financially conservative to increase profits by reducing costs, but ok screw your loyal skier's out of the long season they love.


This was my takeaway as possible.  He basically said that if your ski area is not open, you have the option to visit one their other resorts.  There is a big difference between a 75 minute drive for a day trip to Southern PA vs 7-12 hour drive that would require an overnight to ski in NY, VT, or NH.


----------



## danimals (Jan 26, 2022)

Found this on Reddit. Take with a grain of salt but it’s entertaining to read. A gilson snowboard is the equivalent to using ski blades.

“6 snowmaker from wildcat and attitash earlier this season told the resort that they had all been offered 2 dollars more per hour to work at Shawnee peak. Vail wouldn’t match the offer so all 6 now work at Shawnee peak. Vail pays the least of anybody in the valley. Sunday River just 45 minutes away pays 16 starting wage for snowmaker. It’s 12 at attitash/wildcat

Also the guy running the wildcat snowmakers (the 1 or 2 still left) is a pathological liar. His names Tony, but everyone calls him Tony Tony, because he’s such a good storyteller he could win a Tony award. He tells anyone who will listen that he used to be a pro snowboarder, got 4th in 04’ X games, was tight with Shaun white, and tells very elaborate and detailed stories about him and Shaun. Says he used to be sponsored by burton, and is currently riding for Gilson. Not only is none of it remotely true, he’s not even a good snowboarder. He could pass off as having just learned. Anyways, that’s who runs all snowmaking and grooming at wildcat, a well known pathological liar. It’s a really shitty place to work, terrible culture. I left last season to work at black mountain down the street, much much better people.”


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 26, 2022)

So in theory every Epic Pass (the top one I mean) and Epic Local Pass should come with a $150 credit for use at Stevens Pass.  Doubt I'll get there next year.  Was there last year and possibly later this year.  Went on a late March Monday and all necessary lifts were running except for Jupiter due to winds.  That did open when Southern Cross broke down, but kept stopping due to the wind.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 26, 2022)

danimals said:


> A gilson snowboard is the equivalent to using ski blades.


They make a Gritty snowboard, how bad can they be!!!









						Gilson Gritty Snowboard
					

For Flyers Fans - #FlyOrDie




					gilsonsnow.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2022)

machski said:


> So, given the limits on what the discount applies to at Stevens, for East skier's if they did this it won't apply to Epic or Epic Local passes.  And you could only use you $150 resort credit at eastern areas, not Whistler.  So this would not help your trip there.
> 
> All this said, I do not believe there is a NH specific pass and certainly not an AttiCat or Crotched only products.  Given VT has run much better and is accessible on the Northeast pass, I cannot see Vail tossing any discounts out here.  If you are firmly entrenched at Crotched or AttiCat, that should probably piss you off.  But they won't care.  Stevens is unique, as anything else on the Epic is quite a hike, the closest probably being Whistler.  But that isn't a simple drive and back with Covid restrictions in place.  So Vail has to do something there, not sure this will cut it.  Have a feeling they are going to lose a ton of Stevens folks, and I doubt they get many traveling there on the Epic from other regions given lack of lodging, etc.



You're probably right in regards to NH.  Let's say Vail does 700k skier visits in NH.  Probably a bit high, but I'm using that figure for easy math because New England Epic Pass holders use it an average of 7 days per season.  Call it 100k passes.  How many of those though use it exclusively in NH?  Maybe half?  The other half equally splits their time between NH and VT. 

So of those 50k pass holders that are exclusively NH skiers, say 20% don't renew for next season.  Is Vail going to care all that much about losing 10k pass sales when they sell 2.1M nationally?  And that number only goes up with the 3 PA areas they bought this season. 

Nope, they will not care about that slight drop in business.  Not enough to perform considerably better in NH I'm guessing.   Snowmaking roll out will still be slow.  Lift operations frugal.  Same short season.  Crotched won't go back to 7 days a week.  I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 26, 2022)

danimals said:


> Also the guy running the wildcat snowmakers (the 1 or 2 still left) is a pathological liar. His names Tony, but everyone calls him Tony Tony, because he’s such a good storyteller he could win a Tony award. He tells anyone who will listen that he used to be a pro snowboarder, got 4th in 04’ X games, was tight with Shaun white, and tells very elaborate and detailed stories about him and Shaun. Says he used to be sponsored by burton, and is currently riding for Gilson. Not only is none of it remotely true, he’s not even a good snowboarder. He could pass off as having just learned. Anyways, that’s who runs all snowmaking and grooming at wildcat, a well known pathological liar. It’s a really shitty place to work, terrible culture. I left last season to work at black mountain down the street, much much better people.”



If that is true then I was almost duped into feeling bad for Tony, as his face was plastered all over Wildcat's social media feeds last week as "the guy who will get Lynx ready to ski this weekend", and go figure Lynx was not ready to ski this weekend in any sense of the word "groomed".

Now that I've typed this out it kinda further validates the liar part hahaha...


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2022)

Maple Covered Booger said:


> machski said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest take away from the Katz SSPC episode was that Stuart asked him if their Midwest and Eastern ski areas would go back to their previous openings and operations. Katz said point blank, they will open smartly. If they have to blow a ton of snow only to watch it melt and wash away prior to the Christmas holiday, they probably won't push the season that way to be "environmentally responsible.".
> ...


Tough luck for those in southern PA. But for those in NH, the writing is on the wall, get an other pass if you want a long season. BTW, the same probably applies to Hunter skiers too.



deadheadskier said:


> So of those 50k pass holders that are exclusively NH skiers, say 20% don't renew for next season. Is Vail going to care all that much about losing 10k pass sales when they sell 2.1M nationally?


Why only 20% not renewing? How about 50% not renewing? It's not like they have no other options. 

Agree still not a whole lot in Vail's "big picture" though.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 26, 2022)

If people keep buying epic passes regardless of the discount, They will keep giving a shit product. Stop buying epic passes. It’s the only solution.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Exactly and correct me if I'm wrong, but your praise is probably dated a decade In terms of on property experience at Pats since moving to Utah
> 
> Have you been there since the well done base lodge expansion?   You probably haven't skied Cascade Basin either.  They nailed both those projects and kept the same quality service through growth.   That's all we want out of businesses right?


You're absolutely right that I have a positive impression all these years later.  I do need to revisit it someday.  I do know about both of those expansions.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

kendo said:


> Vail discounting next year's pass $150 for Steven's Pass.  "We sucked this year.  We got your money.  Our only option is to take your money again for next year."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I think this foreshadows how they intend to respond.  Make an offer they can't refuse.  And then we see the same shit next year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

kendo said:


> Fine print... response from the GM Tom on FB:
> 
> View attachment 52857
> 
> ...


"Why not provide a refund?  Because we provide such an awesome deal to you for buying in advance!"


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 26, 2022)

Everyday their pr machine is pumping out bullshit. A lot disguised as media reports…


----------



## kendo (Jan 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I think this foreshadows how they intend to respond.  Make an offer they can't refuse.  And then we see the same shit next year.


Yep.  On the bright side... if they continue to suck at this rate, they're on track for $85 passes in 2yrs.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 26, 2022)

Rob Katz said in that podcast the only reason they wanted the small resorts near metropolitan areas was to draw people to their destination resorts. They obviously don’t care about locals or local mountains character at all. At the end of the day anyone with an epic pass is just a number in the computer and the only thing that will make them change is less numbers in the computer and less $$$ coming in.


----------



## Edd (Jan 26, 2022)

Comment on one of Sunapee’s Instagram posts


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2022)

abc said:


> Tough luck for those in southern PA. But for those in NH, the writing is on the wall, get an other pass if you want a long season. BTW, the same probably applies to Hunter skiers too.
> 
> 
> Why only 20% not renewing? How about 50% not renewing? It's not like they have no other options.
> ...



Who knows.  Just spit balling a number here.  But I think the level of use of a product often correlates to level of anger in poor performance.  If the average Epic Pass Holder only skis 7 days, and out of those 7 only 2 days had really poor performance; how angry are those guests going to get to move their business elsewhere?   

Where as if you have a more frequent skier who uses their pass 20-30 days at NH areas and 5 to 10 of them are awful, the anger likely is higher with those folks. 

Seems to me it's the diehard skier that's going to move on; not the casual 7 day a year person who still says, "Screw it, it's only $500."


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Rob Katz said in that podcast the only reason they wanted the small resorts near metropolitan areas was to draw people to their destination resorts. They obviously don’t care about locals or local mountains character at all. At the end of the day anyone with an epic pass is just a number in the computer and the only thing that will make them change is less numbers in the computer and less $$$ coming in.



Right.  But so far since acquiring these NY and NE properties, only 7% of are heading West.  Mid Atlantic is higher. I believe my friend who has connections in the data farming division at Vail said about 12% of Mid Atlantic customers head West.   But the history is short so far and obviously not indicative of normal behavior due to the pandemic impact on the past few seasons.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems to me it's the diehard skier that's going to move on; not the casual 7 day a year person who still says, "Screw it, it's only $500."



There's a trend I see on social media - not sure if it's new skiers or casual skiers or some combination of that or something else entirely - where people reply to complaints about Vail/Epic with "we should all feel blessed to be able to ski" or "be thankful the mountains are open" or "the passes are so cheap so how could you be negative about this". Bringing new skiers to the sport is great, but if all they ever know is Vail's current level of service, especially in NE, then I feel really really bad for them. And yes, the diehards will move on and fully support better run operations.

Skiing becoming a cheapened, homogeneous product is antithetical to the history and culture of skiing in New England, and that is Reason #871 why Vail Sucks.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Who knows.  Just spit balling a number here.  But I think the level of use of a product often correlates to level of anger in poor performance.  If the average Epic Pass Holder only skis 7 days, and out of those 7 only 2 days had really poor performance; how angry are those guests going to get to move their business elsewhere?
> 
> Where as if you have a more frequent skier who uses their pass 20-30 days at NH areas and 5 to 10 of them are awful, the anger likely is higher with those folks.
> 
> Seems to me it's the diehard skier that's going to move on; not the casual 7 day a year person who still says, "Screw it, it's only $500."



I don't know.  I gotta think any low use skiers that got stuck in the the hour+ lines at Jack Frost might be turned off from skiing completely.

I do think Vail's recent actions show that they are trying to turn some things around.  I also think the only reason they're doing such things it is because they believe they're about to lose a ton of sales.  Way too much bad press that infrequent skier friends have mentioned.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> There's a trend I see on social media - not sure if it's new skiers or casual skiers or some combination of that or something else entirely - where people reply to complaints about Vail/Epic with "we should all feel blessed to be able to ski" or "be thankful the mountains are open" or "the passes are so cheap so how could you be negative about this". Bringing new skiers to the sport is great, but if all they ever know is Vail's current level of service, especially in NE, then I feel really really bad for them.
> 
> Skiing becoming a cheapened, homogeneous product is antithetical to the history and culture of skiing in New England, and that is Reason #871 why Vail Sucks.



Yup.  And I've seen folks say, "Just go out West! It's so much better and a no brainer with the cheap pass."  Um no, I ski every single weekend from about mid November to mid April and often times both days.  A western trip once a season just doesn't compute for me.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup.  And I've seen folks say, "Just go out West! It's so much better and a no brainer with the cheap pass."  Um no, I ski every single weekend from about mid November to mid April and often times both days.  A western trip once a season just doesn't compute for me.



Similar argument from me, but my fam does go out West once a year. Vail/Beaver Creek for many years and now DV/Park City (plus a day at Alta). But to your point, I am NOT going to suffer through 20-30 days of garbage in NE every year just to have 4 great days out West.


----------



## johnl87 (Jan 26, 2022)

i listened to ramblin rob's interview on the way down the hill early this morning.  can you picture this guy working a shift with us unwashed blue collar folk?

of course no mention of the vaccine mandate driving out employees (us who already had covid), no sense of reflection on how it failed to stop widespread covid absences, and no reason why vail has so many more unfilled positions than its competitors.  just a bunch of ramblin corporate speak as if he was running a chain of bistros.

also thought it was interesting how he damned the new ceo with such faint praise.

bonus drinking game:  take a shot every time rob says 'ya!' in the middle of a sentence.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2022)

He's a heady skiing Brah  that's why he talks like that


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> He's a heady skiing Brah  that's why he talks like that


His Epic Podcast was full of so much self-praising and new age BS that your head will explode.  The only one that I think may be worse is Ski Utah's Podcast that is ass-kissing shameless promotion.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

Meanwhile, Vail has just unveiled this huge improvement at Crotched.....


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## Smellytele (Jan 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile, Vail has just unveiled this huge improvement at Crotched.....
> 
> View attachment 52863


Umm ya…


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 26, 2022)

He already tried to quit, so they chained him to the wall.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 26, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> He already tried to quit, so they chained him to the wall.


You know that fuckers gone by March 1st right?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Umm ya…


I love the comments on FB asking if he can make snow or load lifts!       

And does anyone else think that there is a statue of Rob Katz inside that thing?


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile, Vail has just unveiled this huge improvement at Crotched.....
> 
> View attachment 52863


He’s just trying to show off Vails Storm Trooper aesthetic


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Everyday their pr machine is pumping out bullshit. A lot disguised as media reports…


Yep like that WSJ piece. As a subscriber I was very disappointed. But the comments on the story on WSJ.com told the real story.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 26, 2022)

Between this and the stowe sign at the top of the gondola I bet you see more selfie stuff. I can almost envision the meeting in my head. It comes off as  tryhard imo. Run your fucking mountains on point...that'd be the best marketing strategy at this point.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2022)

hey we just spent $3000 on a fake astronaut but we don't have enough people to run the chairs.

Good lord...  Completely unaware.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> He’s just trying to show off Vails Storm Trooper aesthetic
> View attachment 52866


I forgot about that ridiculous photo.  Who else thinks that he had visions of this shot while he was in business school?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 26, 2022)

At Grand Targhee


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 26, 2022)

Nice Beaver!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Nice Beaver!


I've got the 2020-2021 version of that sticker with the Beaver wearing a mask.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

Home
					

Vail Sucks




					vail-sucks.com


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 26, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> hey we just spent $3000 on a fake astronaut but we don't have enough people to run the chairs.
> 
> Good lord...  Completely unaware.


Think there's some symbolism with the chain?


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> the casual 7 day a year person who still says, "Screw it, it's only $500."


the casual 7 day a year person is buying the Epic 7 day pass. Only the "more than casual" skiers would be buying a season pass.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 26, 2022)

Is that susposed to be Christa McAuliffe?  Kind of odd.


----------



## gittist (Jan 26, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> I don't know.  I gotta think any low use skiers that got stuck in the the hour+ lines at Jack Frost might be turned off from skiing completely.


An hour wait to get on a JF lift probably makes the slooooooow ride to the top bearable.  The snow was nice yesterday at JF but my butt gets cold and tried long before my legs give out. I swear to god they need to put an announcement on the last tower before unloading to wake you up from napping on the way up. 

And then they didn't take down the 'funnel fences" (I don't what they are really called) on one of the main lifts so you had to ski 25 yards or so past the lift and walk back up to the loading area. I understand them on the weekends but the longest line yesterday was two people and that was only because person #1 had to ask the liftie something.

Two visits there this year is enough!

I know, bitch bitch bitch. We love to hate Fail Vail


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2022)

abc said:


> the casual 7 day a year person is buying the Epic 7 day pass. Only the "more than casual" skiers would be buying a season pass.



What is your point?


----------



## abc (Jan 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> so far since acquiring these NY and NE properties, only 7% of are heading West


That's last season? Probably a Covid effect.


deadheadskier said:


> Yup.  And I've seen folks say, "Just go out West! It's so much better and a no brainer with the cheap pass."  Um no, I ski every single weekend from about mid November to mid April and often times both days.  A western trip once a season just doesn't compute for me.


Sure, go west. But then, there's no advantage to have an Epic pass. An Ikon works just as well (or better, or not as good).

People forget the purpose of Vail buying all these NE mountain are to entice the "regular" NE skiers who frequent these mountains to get an Epic pass! 

For those who only ski a weekend or 2 in the NE, but spent a fortune to ski a week out west (flight, hotel, rental car), the "cheap pass" really doesn't calculate. (they're actually better off buying a 7 day "Epic Day Pass" for their out west trip)

The whole point of Vail owning these NE mountains are to pretend people can ski locally and then, only then, they can visit Vail's flagship resorts out west. If their operation sucks in the NE, some will move on. Others may even assume their western resorts are equally poorly run and won't touch Park City or Breckenridge with a 12 foot pole!


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 26, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Yep like that WSJ piece. As a subscriber I was very disappointed. But the comments on the story on WSJ.com told the real story.


even had one on NHPR yesterday


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Is that susposed to be Christa McAuliffe?  Kind of odd.


Yeah, Challenger was what, 36 years ago or so?  She was a great NH teacher, but kind of ironic of one disaster paying tribute to another.  

I saw it as a symbol of how out in orbit Vail management is given the current operating situation.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> but kind of ironic of one disaster paying tribute to another



we can close the thread now. You won.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile, Vail has just unveiled this huge improvement at Crotched.....
> 
> View attachment 52863


WTF is that ???   Am I missing something ??  Poor thing is gonna be a target for sure.  I give it 2 weeks.


----------



## gittist (Jan 26, 2022)

2Planker said:


> WTF is that ???   Am I missing something ??  Poor thing is gonna be a target for sure.  I give it 2 weeks.


It's what you'll need to wear for next year's Vail COVID policy.


----------



## PAabe (Jan 26, 2022)

The people that only ski a few days per year are a lot more concerned about "getting their money's worth" out of their pass or ticket and thus I would think would be pretty upset by not getting a lot of runs in or overall not having "the experience of a lifetime" due to long lines


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

PAabe said:


> The people that only ski a few days per year are a lot more concerned about "getting their money's worth" out of their pass or ticket and thus I would think would be pretty upset by not getting a lot of runs in or overall not having "the experience of a lifetime" due to long lines


Vail Marketing's Response:  "it is EPIC to think that we have made it possible for so many people to have such an EPIC experience!"


----------



## zyk (Jan 27, 2022)

So I know nothing about snowmaking... But hey Vail is it cold enough yet?


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 27, 2022)

Vail Resorts Property Posts About Cheap Weekday Tickets, But They Aren't Open On Weekdays This Season...
					

The faithful skiers and snowboarders of Alpine Valley in Geauga County, Ohio are just a little bit confused by a recent Facebook post from the resort. Alpine Valley is not open Monday-Thursday this…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2022)

Just finished a morning sesh at Sunapee. The cold kept people away and it was ski on for 9 or 10 runs. Snowmaking going on in the Sun Bowl. Sunapee homers have it made, relatively speaking. 

No pub during the week


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## Hawk (Jan 27, 2022)

Edd, looking for the Pub at 11:30?  I guess you can't drink all day if you don't start early.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 27, 2022)

Edd said:


> Just finished a morning sesh at Sunapee. The cold kept people away and it was ski on for 9 or 10 runs. Snowmaking going on in the Sun Bowl. Sunapee homers have it made, relatively speaking.
> 
> No pub during the week


Sunapee operations have been pretty ok in my book.

I'm probably gonna roll the dice with attitash tomorrow as ot looks like they're finally catching up


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Edd, looking for the Pub at 11:30?  I guess you can't drink all day if you don't start early.


Early pub stops are the way.


----------



## thebigo (Jan 27, 2022)

Edd said:


> Early pub stops are the way.


Always been an annoyance for me. On mountain bars should open at 10:30 AM all week long, if you catch first chair at 8:00, you are more than ready for a beer and chili by 10:30. Ski season pushes the entire day back three hours. January 10:30 = July 1:30.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

It has been a long time since I've been to Sunapee, but what are the "rest areas" I see on the trail map at the side of certain trails at certain points?  Are they portapotties or something?



			https://dam-assets.vailresorts.com/is/content/vailresorts/sitecore/mount-sunapee/maps/20211109_MS_Winter-Trail_Map.001.pdf?resMode=sharp2
		


And I take it that Sunapee does not have enough staff to open the Pub?


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Always been an annoyance for me. On mountain bars should open at 10:30 AM all week long, if you catch first chair at 8:00, you are more than ready for a beer and chili by 10:30. Ski season pushes the entire day back three hours. January 10:30 = July 1:30.


Cannon pub opens at 10am. They get it.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> It has been a long time since I've been to Sunapee, but what are the "rest areas" I see on the trail map at the side of certain trails at certain points?  Are they portapotties or something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They have rest/stop areas identified at okemo as well. Didn't see them on the map, but they have signs up, similar to the "slow skiing" signs.  I guess they are places where people typically congregate or potentially places they think are safe for people to congregate on slopes.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2022)

Edd said:


> Cannon pub opens at 10am. They get it.


State  - They also sell booze on the highway...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They have rest/stop areas identified at okemo as well. Didn't see them on the map, but they have signs up, similar to the "slow skiing" signs.  I guess they are places where people typically congregate or potentially places they think are safe for people to congregate on slopes.


Interesting.  I was wondering if that was the case--a designated meeting spot.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2022)

my first thought is this is unnecessary.  Then I thought about more crowded slopes and maybe it does make sense. It still likely doesn't stop snowboarders from plopping down in bad spots or skiers standing in bad spots completely, but maybe it helps a little.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

Just don't look for the rest areas on your phone while you wait in line.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 27, 2022)

i think the no phone thing is meant to only apply to the people who are about to board the lift, and not the entire line. and i agree you should have your phone away while you're in the gate to move up for the next chair. I've definitely been guilty of fucking with my iPod as I'm shuffling up for my chair. i ski with a circa 2006 iPod and i love it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i think the no phone thing is meant to only apply to the people who are about to board the lift, and not the entire line. and i agree you should have your phone away while you're in the gate to move up for the next chair. I've definitely been guilty of fucking with my iPod as I'm shuffling up for my chair. i ski with a circa 2006 iPod and i love it.



I don't disagree.  It's more how they sold it as part of their solution to reduce lift lines that was cringe worthy.   Then again, with the insane lines that Epic Pass brings, making sure every damn seat is full matters.


.....or you know, they could sell fewer passes and lift tickets to deliver a better experience like much of their competition is doing.


----------



## Edd (Jan 27, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> ….they could sell fewer passes and lift tickets to deliver a better experience like much of their competition is doing.


I’m told this is really working well for Gunstock. Passes aren’t cheap but the experience is less crowded than it used to be. You’d know better as a customer being there weekends.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

Edd said:


> I’m told this is really working well for Gunstock. Passes aren’t cheap but the experience is less crowded than it used to be. You’d know better as a customer being there weekends.



I've got about ten days in so far at Gunstock with several of them being "sold out' and it's been stellar.  It's never felt overwhelming as far as crowds go.  They crush the snowmaking in terms of speed of expansion and aren't shy about resurfacing.  Staff has been really great.  If they're understaffed, you wouldn't know it. 

I really only have noticed one problem and have only one operational critique

The one problem would be that the Panorama has been down for maintenance issues pretty often.  Like 6 out of those 10 days.  When that happens, the other chairs get pretty crowded.  When it's running, it's mostly a three minute wait or less for Pistol, Ramrod and Tiger.  And even the Panorama lines aren't terrible.  Not sure if it's time for a full overhaul of the lift, but the down time has been excessive. 

My operational suggestion would be to open the Stockade lodge seating area right away to start the day.  They don't need the food court running, but having the seating open really would serve one big benefit.  There are number of people who have kids in lessons who may not be skiers themselves.  You can't see the carpet area from the main base lodge at all.  From the Stockade lodge you can see the learning area well.  I'm sure a number of non-skiing parents would take advantage of that indoor space on cold days to look out on their kids learning to ski.   It sounds trivial, but as a parent of kids in the program who sees the flow of parents dropping kids off and trying to watch, this would be utilized.  

That's really it.  Otherwise it's a top notch operation.  People question the expansion plans they have, but it completely makes sense to me now having settled into skiing there again after almost a decade lapse.  If done right, that expansion would vault the place well past Sunapee as the top day trip destination for families in the Boston and Sourthern NH market.   It would capture a number of the wealthy second home owners around the lake who many head north for a bigger skiing experience.   I hope at least some of it happens.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I've got about ten days in so far at Gunstock with several of them being "sold out' and it's been stellar.  It's never felt overwhelming as far as crowds go.  They crush the snowmaking in terms of speed of expansion and aren't shy about resurfacing.  Staff has been really great.  If they're understaffed, you wouldn't know it.
> 
> I really only have noticed one problem and have only one operational critique
> 
> ...


Their main summit lift has been down?  That's not good.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Their main summit lift has been down?  That's not good.


Yes frequently.   On some occasions it's been an hour or two.  On others it's been for the rest of the day.   Other than adding to lift lines, it's largely not an issue for us as my 3 and 6 year old are fine with the lower mountain lifts.  Hopefully everything is sorted out.  I didn't see any issues this past weekend


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes frequently.   On some occasions it's been an hour or two.  On others it's been for the rest of the day.   Other than adding to lift lines, it's largely not an issue for us as my 3 and 6 year old are fine with the lower mountain lifts.  Hopefully everything is sorted out.  I didn't see any issues this past weekend


That knocks a fair amount of terrain out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That knocks a fair amount of terrain out.


It does.  We'll see how it goes this weekend


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

I don’t think anyone posted this….









						For Skiers, a Winter of Discontent
					

With resorts having trouble hiring and employees calling out sick, visitors have been frustrated by idled lifts, limited services and closed terrain. Some of the biggest complaints have come from Epic Pass holders.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## skef (Jan 27, 2022)

A review of the podcast (in case you needed that…): 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486878295429943296


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I don’t think anyone posted this….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why they doing Magic dirty with that headline photo.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Why they doing Magic dirty with that headline photo.



Hugh Conway a publisher for NYT?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Why they doing Magic dirty with that headline photo.


If you read the rest of the article you will see that Magic actually looked pretty good.  Killington, down 20-30% of staff, not so good.  One might think it was a POWDR resort or something....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 28, 2022)

no mention of the Attitash Triple being replaced.





__





						Vail Resorts Capital Improvements | Epic Lift Upgr | Snow.com
					






					www.snow.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> no mention of the Attitash Triple being replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that is their original announcement from the fall.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 28, 2022)

Good point


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 28, 2022)

Stowe..over a foot this week..over 100 inches...80% open...no front 4 top runs open.
Sugarbush...less snow..100% open
Vail...you suck.....bet a lot of Stowe people switch to SB next season...


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 28, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe..over a foot this week..over 100 inches...80% open...no front 4 top runs open.
> Sugarbush...less snow..100% open
> Vail...you suck.....bet a lot of Stowe people switch to SB next season...


That’s strange as all the front four were open on Tuesday when I was there……..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 28, 2022)

The top of the runs?


----------



## JimG. (Jan 28, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> That’s strange as all the front four were open on Tuesday when I was there……..


slug is referring to the extensions.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 28, 2022)

The top of the runs..yes..they are rocky..steep..bumped up...
So is castle rock..its 100% open...Stowe used to be known for their steep runs...


----------



## drjeff (Jan 28, 2022)

This thread is really starting to suck more than Vail does.

The crummedgeon factor is beyond large in this thread now


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2022)

Backlash against Vail Resorts growing among skiers and snowboarders across the country
					

When Jeremy Rubingh posted an online petition blasting Vail Resorts for the way North America’s largest ski resort company is managing the Stevens Pass ski area, he had no inkling of the mass…




					www.denverpost.com


----------



## tumbler (Jan 29, 2022)

drjeff said:


> This thread is really starting to suck more than Vail does.
> 
> The crummedgeon factor is beyond large in this thread now


I think happened 5,469 posts ago…


----------



## NYDB (Jan 29, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The top of the runs..yes..they are rocky..steep..bumped up...
> So is castle rock..its 100% open...Stowe used to be known for their steep runs...


So Vail doesn’t open marginal terrain with thin cover expert only signs?


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 29, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The top of the runs?


The tops of the runs were open….


----------



## Edd (Jan 29, 2022)

drjeff said:


> This thread is really starting to suck more than Vail does.
> 
> The crummedgeon factor is beyond large in this thread now


When you click on a thread titled “(X) sucks” you should know what you’re getting into.


----------



## kendo (Jan 29, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> So Vail doesn’t open marginal terrain with thin cover expert only signs?




how to get Upper Goat opened today. . . 




_(thanks to Kingslug20 for risking his life & skis, to take this Goat pic)_


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 29, 2022)

I was looking at the trail report which shows them all closed..but if they are open...then its a good thing...


----------



## gittist (Jan 29, 2022)

Great news!

*North American Vail Resorts to Offer free apres snacks and beer to EPIC pass holders after a day of skiing* for the month of July 2022


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 29, 2022)

Hmm..rock skiing in july..then beers...im in


----------



## xlr8r (Jan 29, 2022)

So it looks like Attitash spent a week building out a park on Moonbeam.  But they aren't running the Kachina triple to serve it.  Looks like upper Kachina is closed as well, so how is one supposed to get to it


----------



## cdskier (Jan 29, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe..over a foot this week..over 100 inches...80% open...no front 4 top runs open.
> Sugarbush...less snow..100% open
> Vail...you suck.....bet a lot of Stowe people switch to SB next season...



Is this really a Vail thing though? I remember even years ago Stowe being more conservative with opening trails than SB. SB patrol is very lenient with opening trails on thin cover (and I've always been thankful for that). Has been this way for a while. I really don't think this particular example is going to move the needle much for people jumping ship from Stowe to go to SB instead though.


----------



## abc (Jan 29, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Is this really a Vail thing though? I remember even years ago Stowe being more conservative with opening trails than SB. SB patrol is very lenient with opening trails on thin cover (and I've always been thankful for that). Has been this way for a while. I really don't think this particular example is going to move the needle much for people jumping ship from Stowe to go to SB instead though.


Stowe was never as aggressive in opening trails as SB. But I used to see tons of people skiing closed trails at Stowe and patrol look the other way. That latter part has changed under Vail, I'm told.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 29, 2022)

I have yet to meet a local that is happy with Stowe/vail


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 29, 2022)

I get that the tops of the front 4 are pretty hairy..maybe they just want to protect people who think they can jump in...its hard to see what your getting into..


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2022)

Staff shortages causing lift closures at PCMR
					

Despite a strong December of snowfall, not all of the lifts at Park City Mountain Resort are open for skiers and snowboarders. The resort says staffing issues due to COVID-19 are partly to blame.




					www.kpcw.org


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 30, 2022)

I would be happy if people switch from Stowe to SB.  Less people works for me.  IMO Stowe is a better mountain then SB on many levels.  @ Stowe you have vertical  all the way down to the lift, Not the case @ SB  The backcountry/ side country however you want to name it is better.  When there is a rain event Stowe has the capacity to refresh the mountain in a more efficient manor then SB does.  They make better snow, more of it and they groom better then SB does.  Lift systems are quicker, and it’s nice to get to the top of the mountain on one lift.   I would agree that SB has an advantage with pod lifts when it is windy and can spread people out a bit better then Stowe can.  SB has always been more aggressive in opening trails then Stowe.  SB has had plenty of issues this year.  North Ridge chair not open even though it’s the main chair over at Ellen, Last weekend two chairs not working for most of the weekend @ Ellen.  Not making enough snow this season due to broken pipe and water issues. 
I am not a fan of Vail but some of these complaints in this thread are getting ridiculous.  I hope Kingslug is right that a significant amount of people move to SB, for me I would rather be @ Stowe over an entire season then SB.  So let the migration begin…….


----------



## thebigo (Jan 30, 2022)

Ragged is hosting sunapee for a race today. Rode up with a sunapee race dad. Said the race parents at sunapee are "disgusted" and planning a "mass exodus" next year.

Sunapee is supposed to be the well run of the four.


----------



## Edd (Jan 30, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I would be happy if people switch from Stowe to SB.  Less people works for me.  IMO Stowe is a better mountain then SB on many levels.  @ Stowe you have vertical  all the way down to the lift, Not the case @ SB  The backcountry/ side country however you want to name it is better.  When there is a rain event Stowe has the capacity to refresh the mountain in a more efficient manor then SB does.  They make better snow, more of it and they groom better then SB does.  Lift systems are quicker, and it’s nice to get to the top of the mountain on one lift.   I would agree that SB has an advantage with pod lifts when it is windy and can spread people out a bit better then Stowe can.  SB has always been more aggressive in opening trails then Stowe.  SB has had plenty of issues this year.  North Ridge chair not open even though it’s the main chair over at Ellen, Last weekend two chairs not working for most of the weekend @ Ellen.  Not making enough snow this season due to broken pipe and water issues.
> I am not a fan of Vail but some of these complaints in this thread are getting ridiculous.  I hope Kingslug is right that a significant amount of people move to SB, for me I would rather be @ Stowe over an entire season then SB.  So let the migration begin…….


I agree with your lift assessment between those mountains. This is just preference but I’m not a fan of the upper/lower pod setups vs T2B. That’s an issue I have with Cannon, which I know is blasphemy on AZ. I fully get why they’re set up that way but just not how I like to do my runs. Long runs with one lift trip is my preference.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 30, 2022)

Im just glad i can go to either in the same amount of time now..


----------



## tumbler (Jan 30, 2022)

I’m not sure how many will make an exodus from Stowe to SB especially if you own at Stowe.  To leave on area to go to another 45+ minutes away would annoy me. There are also limited rental and ownership options in the Valley.


----------



## baykon (Jan 30, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Ragged is hosting sunapee for a race today. Rode up with a sunapee race dad. Said the race parents at sunapee are "disgusted" and planning a "mass exodus" next year.
> 
> Sunapee is supposed to be the well run of the four.


can confirm. one of my cousins has two kids on the sunapee team; he's livid and thinking of going back to pat's. my uncle used to be involved with racing and ski school at sunapee as well and said everyone there despises vail. perhaps stating the obvious at this point.


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 30, 2022)

Edd said:


> I agree with your lift assessment between those mountains. This is just preference but I’m not a fan of the upper/lower pod setups vs T2B. That’s an issue I have with Cannon, which I know is blasphemy on AZ. I fully get why they’re set up that way but just not how I like to do my runs. Long runs with one lift trip is my preference.


On the same page as you.  At times the pod has it’s advantage but I prefer the T2B runs as well.  It’s worth the wind holds on occasion for the ride to the top.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Ragged is hosting sunapee for a race today. Rode up with a sunapee race dad. Said the race parents at sunapee are "disgusted" and planning a "mass exodus" next year.
> 
> Sunapee is supposed to be the well run of the four.





baykon said:


> can confirm. one of my cousins has two kids on the sunapee team; he's livid and thinking of going back to pat's. my uncle used to be involved with racing and ski school at sunapee as well and said everyone there despises vail. perhaps stating the obvious at this point.


Vail focuses only on Epic.  That's it.  The rentals, retail, food and bev, and some lodging are profit centers to make up for any losses created by Epic.  Anything else is a cost for them and they want to cut it.  This includes things like racing programs using the slopes regularly, special events, and terrain parks.  Anyone who is familiar with Park City knows that racing and other events were a really big deal for the town.  Heaven forbid if a family is into racing and getting their kids into skiing.  I think it is very shortsighted.  The future of the business are the kids.  Goodwill is worth something to a business.  But it is not Epic.

Within a season or two Vail stopped Park City's night skiing (very popular with the locals), cut the season back at least a week (eliminating the April school break ski time that, again, locals loved), and pretty much kicked out the youth racing programs.  All were losing money.  Vail is Epic when it comes to costcutting and I think it will hurt them.  (They also pissed off locals by threatening suit against any businesses that used the words, "Park City" in its name.  That effort was killed when the media covered it).

The only upside I can see is that the locals rallied and worked with the Olympic Park to build THEIR OWN race trails with two new lifts.  At last check the buildout will be completed this summer with a high-speed quad and a whole mountain with maybe 7-8 runs and 1,000 vertical.  The Olympic Park is a gem and has been very eager to offer more programs and generate interest (and much needed revenue).  That's a win.  And Utah is gaining another ski area.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I would be happy if people switch from Stowe to SB.  Less people works for me.  IMO Stowe is a better mountain then SB on many levels.  @ Stowe you have vertical  all the way down to the lift, Not the case @ SB  The backcountry/ side country however you want to name it is better.  When there is a rain event Stowe has the capacity to refresh the mountain in a more efficient manor then SB does.  They make better snow, more of it and they groom better then SB does.  Lift systems are quicker, and it’s nice to get to the top of the mountain on one lift.   I would agree that SB has an advantage with pod lifts when it is windy and can spread people out a bit better then Stowe can.  SB has always been more aggressive in opening trails then Stowe.  SB has had plenty of issues this year.  North Ridge chair not open even though it’s the main chair over at Ellen, Last weekend two chairs not working for most of the weekend @ Ellen.  Not making enough snow this season due to broken pipe and water issues.
> I am not a fan of Vail but some of these complaints in this thread are getting ridiculous.  I hope Kingslug is right that a significant amount of people move to SB, for me I would rather be @ Stowe over an entire season then SB.  So let the migration begin…….


So what complaints do you disagree with?  Generally speaking of course.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 31, 2022)

__





						News
					






					www.outtherecolorado.com


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 31, 2022)

Less trails = less maintenance = more stock price!!








						Vail Mountain removes double-black diamond run ‘The Narrows’ from ski area
					

VAIL — The run called The Narrows has been removed from the in-bounds terrain available to skiers and snowboarders on Vail Mountain, a spokesperson with the resort has confirmed.




					www.vaildaily.com


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Less trails = less maintenance = more stock price!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vail still sucks, but I'm actually in favor of this sort of thing. Mount Washington Valley ski areas are littered with secret spots and some of them were at one time on "the map". Now it's like an outdoor version of In-N-Out's Secret Menu, you just have to know who to ask to help find it.

Vail Resort pulls in a TON of different types of skiers throughout the season and if removing a trail with historically poor coverage helps keep armies of "The Guy Who Just Bought a Boat" from following their "brahs" into the woods and exiting straight to Vail Health then it's probably a good thing.


----------



## Los (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe..over a foot this week..over 100 inches...80% open...no front 4 top runs open.
> Sugarbush...less snow..100% open
> Vail...you suck.....bet a lot of Stowe people switch to SB next season...


God I hope not. Sugarbush is already beyond max capacity.


----------



## hovercraft (Jan 31, 2022)

The non stop complaining with out giving any consideration to the environment of Covid, labor shortage or extreme lack of snow.  By no means am I a fan of Vail but they do somethings right.  I can only speak of Stowe as that is my home mountain.   People complaining that they weren’t making enough snow, (not my experience), not enough trails open, (not my experience), not running lifts when they should be, (not my experience) a recent post dealing with another mountain  ” Less trails=less maintance=more stock price”.  That might have been done for a good reason.  One member on the forum seems to think so.  I have no idea if it was a good decision or not but that is an example of fly specking everything they do and finding something wrong with it.  Again I am not a fan of Vail I would rather have AIG still owe Stowe but to say that Vail hasn’t done anything right at Stowe isn’t accurate.  I am sure the majority of complaints on this thread are legitimate and it feels like it’s a big pile on at times.


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I am sure the majority of complaints on this thread are legitimate and it feels like it’s a big pile on at times.



The power of the internet! Definitely a pile-on. At times deserved IMO. Stowe being MTN's "crown jewel" of the East likely helps their operational budget/etc and might be partly why you're seeing so many positives compared to those of us skiing the NH properties.

I appreciate this thread because many folks on here - between the layers of pile-on - are willing to go deep into specific snowmaking/grooming/patrol issues. And I personally would have missed most of the journalism efforts on this issue if they weren't linked here. It's a lot of shit to pick through, but nuggets abound in the previous 275 pages


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

Vail wants to be The Premier Ski Experience...
Does anyone here see that?
High end companies pay their people more so they put out a better product...
Vail..does not put out a high end product.
Tens of thousands of people across the country...can be wrong.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 31, 2022)

Also if they say an area is closed and it is roped if you ski it vail being vail will pull your pass if caught.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jan 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> I would be happy if people switch from Stowe to SB.  Less people works for me.  IMO Stowe is a better mountain then SB on many levels.  @ Stowe you have vertical  all the way down to the lift, Not the case @ SB  The backcountry/ side country however you want to name it is better.  When there is a rain event Stowe has the capacity to refresh the mountain in a more efficient manor then SB does.  They make better snow, more of it and they groom better then SB does.  Lift systems are quicker, and it’s nice to get to the top of the mountain on one lift.   I would agree that SB has an advantage with pod lifts when it is windy and can spread people out a bit better then Stowe can.  SB has always been more aggressive in opening trails then Stowe.  SB has had plenty of issues this year.  North Ridge chair not open even though it’s the main chair over at Ellen, Last weekend two chairs not working for most of the weekend @ Ellen.  Not making enough snow this season due to broken pipe and water issues.
> I am not a fan of Vail but some of these complaints in this thread are getting ridiculous.  I hope Kingslug is right that a significant amount of people move to SB, for me I would rather be @ Stowe over an entire season then SB.  So let the migration begin…….


There really isn’t a more aesthetic and perfect ski mountain than Stowe out east. It’s hard to beat Stowes 2k vert high speed lift and long, uninterrupted sinuous fall line ski trails that perfectly hug the contours. That being said, ever since National and Lift Line were regularly groomed back in the late 80’s/early 90’s the front four don’t really deserve their old reputation.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> The non stop complaining with out giving any consideration to the environment of Covid, labor shortage or extreme lack of snow.  By no means am I a fan of Vail but they do somethings right.  I can only speak of Stowe as that is my home mountain.   People complaining that they weren’t making enough snow, (not my experience), not enough trails open, (not my experience), not running lifts when they should be, (not my experience) a recent post dealing with another mountain  ” Less trails=less maintance=more stock price”.  That might have been done for a good reason.  One member on the forum seems to think so.  I have no idea if it was a good decision or not but that is an example of fly specking everything they do and finding something wrong with it.  Again I am not a fan of Vail I would rather have AIG still owe Stowe but to say that Vail hasn’t done anything right at Stowe isn’t accurate.  I am sure the majority of complaints on this thread are legitimate and it feels like it’s a big pile on at times.


The complaints are very legitimate especially when you look at ski areas like Wildcat where they are failing at. Not making enough snow, not enough trails open, not enough staff for lifts or running lifts, yet they have plenty of staff to check your “vaccine passports”.  Pandemic started in 2020, every other business seems to figure it out, Vail should too.

And I’m sorry that my joke about the stock price went over your head, this has simply become the “post anything about Vail” thread IMO. The stock price is a bit of a rubbing joke amongst some of us here like DHS. “Can’t blow snow tonight, stock price dropped $1”… in relation to my post above about Vail taking trails off the map: I do think it could open up a valid discussion though about on versus off the map trails, and if ski patrol should patrol them or have any say if you ski them or not. If you are gonna take a trail off the map, then when it is skiable & safe by some (nothing is ever 100% safe) you clip their ticket, that is not “right” IMO.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

They have less patrollers...only thing i can think of why they are closing areas.
Less groomers..
Less snow makers.
Seems like no one wants to work for them..i wouldnt.
I might try out for a part time teaching job...with SB next season..not..vail.
They have to get their act together..and they have the money to do it.
I used to work for one of the most high end real estate management companies in the world..we spent a fortune on our employees with training..tools..etc.
My building won building of the year..we made it perfect..
I quit my last job because it was the opposite..i lost interest and did not want my name on a building that had a D rating..
I give Vail a D...we shall see


----------



## abc (Jan 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> By no means am I a fan of Vail but they do somethings right.  *I can only speak of Stowe as that is my home mountain.*


That's the disconnect. 

Vail put efforts into SOME of the mountains. So if yours is one of them, you should be happy. 

But those efforts are at the expense of other mountains which didn't even open full week! Or only had 1 or 2 trails from top to bottom through MLK weekend! 

It's a world of haves and have nots! Sure, it's hard for the haves to understand the complains of the have nots.  


hovercraft said:


> The non stop complaining with out giving any consideration to the environment of Covid, labor shortage or extreme lack of snow.


You're neglecting the fact that other mountains in the same vicinity were doing considerably better than Vail owned properties. When there's no comparison, anything can be "acceptable" given the environmental issue. But when one business is doing far better than another, anyone have an once of intelligent can tell the excuses wears thin.  



> I am sure the majority of complaints on this thread are legitimate and it feels like it’s a big pile on at times.


If the complaints are legitimate, that's what matters. 

As for the pile on, it only means there're many affected. 

Last but not least, Alpinezone isn't representative of the average skiing demographic. So no need to get upset about the piling on. That said, I found it interesting the various links to other media sources.


----------



## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> *They have less patrollers...only thing i can think of why they are closing areas.*
> Less groomers..
> Less snow makers.
> Seems like no one wants to work for them..i wouldnt.
> ...


Correct ! -  Both AT & WC are down considerably from the normal  patrol #'s of a couple years ago...
For those that left (some after 20-30 years) it was never about the $$$


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 31, 2022)

abc said:


> That's the disconnect.
> 
> Vail put efforts into SOME of the mountains. So if yours is one of them, you should be happy.
> 
> ...



a stowe homer shouldnt even be happy with this situation unless they are one of the lucky or retired people who can ski weekdays. if i was a long time stowe homeowner who used my place on the weekends and holidays, because my family needs to work and be in school during the week, i would be furious that my home mountain that used to be a truly premium product is now fuckin bargain bin. traffic down 108 to 100 on Saturday mornings. fuck that shit.


----------



## Mainer (Jan 31, 2022)

Skied attitash, black, Shawnee the last couple days. Black is normal, Shawnee is normal. Attitash sucks. It never had a great vibe, now it’s downright depressing. Skied with a family there on Saturday, tried to talk them out of it. I explained there is no beginner terrain for them, their dad pulls out the trail report and shows me the green circles. I explain there is no way to get to them without skiing a icy crowded blue, he doesn’t believe me. His wife takes one run, his kids are having meltdowns. They need to run the doubles or Abenaki or kachina. Park placement is terrible. Have to ski a black to get to park. 3 separate security guards checking vax cards, not enough staff to run lifts. They did have bunch of ungroomed terrain which was nice. Such a crappy experience.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Skied attitash, black, Shawnee the last couple days. Black is normal, Shawnee is normal. Attitash sucks. It never had a great vibe, now it’s downright depressing. Skied with a family there on Saturday, tried to talk them out of it. I explained there is no beginner terrain for them, their dad pulls out the trail report and shows me the green circles. I explain there is no way to get to them without skiing a icy crowded blue, he doesn’t believe me. His wife takes one run, his kids are having meltdowns. They need to run the doubles or Abenaki or kachina. Park placement is terrible. Have to ski a black to get to park. 3 separate security guards checking vax cards, not enough staff to run lifts. They did have bunch of ungroomed terrain which was nice. Such a crappy experience.


Same story here.  We had long time friends staying at the Attitash Grand Summit (Mistake #1).
These guys are 3rd generation Ski Family.  Owned houses in ME and VT

We recc'd to head to BW, but they said no we'll try it here.
 From what we heard.  2 runs for Mom & 2 kids, 3 for Dad
Dad even went to Guest Services to complain.... No help from them at all
Over $1,000 spent.....

They will NEVER EVER go back....


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> They have less patrollers...only thing i can think of why they are closing areas.
> Less groomers..
> Less snow makers.
> Seems like no one wants to work for them..i wouldnt.
> ...


Which one?  C&W, CBRE, Equity, Colliers?


----------



## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Dad even went to Guest Services to complain.... No help from them at all
> Over $1,000 spent.....
> 
> They will NEVER EVER go back....



What were the main complaints? Granted, family skiing is tough this year at Attitash without the double-double or Kachina running (nor Wandering Skis available) and I'm empathetic to that but not sure if they ran into lift lines or other issues?


----------



## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a stowe homer shouldnt even be happy with this situation unless they are one of the lucky or retired people who can ski weekdays. if i was a long time stowe homeowner who used my place on the weekends and holidays, because my family needs to work and be in school during the week, i would be furious that my home mountain that used to be a truly premium product is now fuckin bargain bin. traffic down 108 to 100 on Saturday mornings. fuck that shit.


I am not a Stowe Homer but used to ski there at least 4-6 days a year.  I have to say I agree with Kusty 100%.  The whole experience has been ruined up there.  Crazy lines, traffic, the new Shi-Shi crowd.  It is not even close to what it used to be.  Ruinied forever.


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> the new Shi-Shi crowd.



The Shi-Shi crowds come and go, no? And alternate resorts historically? I recall late 80's my dad calling Sugarbush "mascara mountain" and my grandfather correcting him saying Stowe used to be "mascara mountain". 

Current day though I am no match for the Tesla Armada heading up to Stowe Friday nights and Saturday mornings


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Correct ! -  Both AT & WC are down considerably from the normal  patrol #'s of a couple years ago...
> For those that left (some after 20-30 years) it was never about the $$$


Lack of patrol is not a factor in terrain being closed at WC. Patrol is the pretty much the only department that's adequately staffed there. Numbers are smaller because Vail doesn't take volunteer patrollers, the number of paid patrol is pretty much the same or more than there were before.


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## Hawk (Jan 31, 2022)

Both Sugarbush and Stowe have had thier share of celeberties and NY high society vists.  That is not the Shi-Shi we have now.  At least in those days the mountain was filled with some of the best skiers in the east including some of those high society people.  Now with the developement there are 100x of those families but it's not the same people.  They are new rich that want to skip the line with their private lessons and eat in there private club at Spruce.  Certainly not the crowd at the Matterhorn I would say.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Lack of patrol is not a factor in terrain being closed at WC. Patrol is the pretty much the only department that's adequately staffed there. Numbers are smaller because Vail doesn't take volunteer patrollers, the number of paid patrol is pretty much the same or more than there were before.


Then why are they asking us to come back ??
     Both At & WC called in October and then again in Dec., just before Xmas


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Then why are they asking us to come back ??
> Both At & WC called in October and then again n Dec., just before Xmas


Couldn't say. But we've been pretty comfy so far and trails definitely aren't staying closed because there's nobody to patrol them.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Couldn't say. But we've been pretty comfy so far and trails definitely aren't staying closed because there's nobody to patrol them.


40 years as NSP & OEC Senior Level Instructor/Evaluator/Trainer....
     Not gonna lower my standards to their level.  
Enjoying my year off.
Have 2 offers so far for next year....


----------



## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> 40 years as NSP & OEC Senior Level Instructor/Evaluator/Trainer....
> Not gonna lower my standards to their level.
> Enjoying my year off.
> Have 2 offers so far for next year....


Good for you. Doesn't mean you know a thing about how WC patrol is doing things here apparently.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Good for you. Doesn't mean you know a thing about how WC patrol is doing things here apparently.


I spent 12 years working there, and probably trained every single person there now....
  I'm friends w/ several WC patrol who stuck it out, so I get an update 2,3 times/week.

Defend them all you want...  The place is falling apart.
Your new GM is already out looking for another  job.
 The whole MWV hates Vail and anything connected to it.

Thanx Vail, You're the best

On the Upside - BW was spectacular yesterday


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 31, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> What were the main complaints? Granted, family skiing is tough this year at Attitash without the double-double or Kachina running (nor Wandering Skis available) and I'm empathetic to that but not sure if they ran into lift lines or other issues?


I would suspect that the advertised open trails and the actually, fully serviced green trails was a disappointing.  Attitash (as of today's snow report) is burning grooming resources on is Bearfoot Creek, Billys Bbq, and Chilly Mac without a lift to service them.

When my kiddo was a green cruiser Pinball Alley --> Bear Necessity --> Chilly Mac was one of our favorites.  Pinball is blue on paper but very approachable.


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

Heard. Not a defense, but I would assume those need to be occasionally groomed if there is a certain amount of snow as part of the HOA/Attitash agreement for Bearfoot Creek. Not running Abenaki is a real shame for Bear Peak as a whole but especially for those who now have overpriced "ski in, hike out" accommodations.


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## MogulMonsters (Jan 31, 2022)

Trails should not be listed as "open" on a snow report if they have no lift access.  Heck about 10% of "open" trails have no serviceable lifts.  I'd be bitter if I had kids looking for greens too.

In more positive news, halfway through ski season Attitash is blowing snow.  There were legit tons of whales out there, and snowmakers everywhere yesterday.


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## Katahdin (Jan 31, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> In more positive news, halfway through ski season Attitash is blowing snow.  There were legit tons of whales out there, and snowmakers everywhere yesterday.


Too bad it seems like they don't have anyone to push out those whales.  Looks like they make tons of snow last week on both peaks, but I don't think they opened a single new trail for the weekend.


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I spent 12 years working there, and probably trained every single person there now....
> I'm friends w/ several WC patrol who stuck it out, so I get an update 2,3 times/week.
> 
> Defend them all you want...  The place is falling apart.
> ...



Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Vail. But the idea we don't have enough patrol is just not correct. And i get my updates every day, because I patrol there now.


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## MadKitty (Jan 31, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Heard. Not a defense, but I would assume those need to be occasionally groomed if there is a certain amount of snow as part of the HOA/Attitash agreement for Bearfoot Creek. Not running Abenaki is a real shame for Bear Peak as a whole but especially for those who now have overpriced "ski in, hike out" accommodations.


I heard Abenaki won't run this season because they took parts from it to keep the triple going.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Vail. But the idea we don't have enough patrol is just not correct. And i get my updates every day, because I patrol there now.


Whoa there big fella.....
Never said that you don't have enough.  Just that for you (& AT)  the #'s are down from the last 2-3 years


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Whoa there big fella.....
> Never said that you don't have enough.  Just that for you (& AT)  the #'s are down from the last 2-3 years



Sorry i thought you meant the comment about trails not being open cuz of patrol.

Yeah there aren't as many was there were. But that's before my time


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

Los said:


> God I hope not. Sugarbush is already beyond max capacity.


The downside of a discount multimountain pass.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Sorry i thought you meant the comment about trails not being open cuz of patrol.
> 
> Yeah there aren't as many was there were. But that's before my time


Enjoy your time there.  
Truly a special place to ski everyday !
Hopefully Vail can pull things together. 
 I did 2 stints there. First under Jim Bilotta then came back to train Brian Heon & crew


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> The non stop complaining with out giving any consideration to the environment of Covid, labor shortage or extreme lack of snow.  By no means am I a fan of Vail but they do somethings right.  I can only speak of Stowe as that is my home mountain.   People complaining that they weren’t making enough snow, (not my experience), not enough trails open, (not my experience), not running lifts when they should be, (not my experience) a recent post dealing with another mountain  ” Less trails=less maintance=more stock price”.  That might have been done for a good reason.  One member on the forum seems to think so.  I have no idea if it was a good decision or not but that is an example of fly specking everything they do and finding something wrong with it.  Again I am not a fan of Vail I would rather have AIG still owe Stowe but to say that Vail hasn’t done anything right at Stowe isn’t accurate.  I am sure the majority of complaints on this thread are legitimate and it feels like it’s a big pile on at times.


I appreciate the frank response.  Sounds like you are not being impacted at Stowe.  The biggest issue, as I understand it there, has been crowding and lack of parking for the crowds.  Stowe applied for a permit to expand the parking lots and the Town denied it.  I imagine if you are not impacted by the parking or crowds that you either ski midweek or get there early.  Either way, glad it works out.

A lot of the anger in here has been directed to the operation of three specific resorts in New Hampshire.  Two of them, historically, were somewhat destination resorts with a well-established following.  The other is an area that is a bit bigger than a mere "feeder hill" and had created a niche for itself as a go-to place for the Boston suburbs by offering good snowmaking, extended night skiing hours, and a decent price (Crotched). The operations of those resorts have been drastically limited.  Not because of lack of snow, not because of COVID outbreaks, but by conscious decisions regarding management and operations.  For example, paying less for labor than competitors in the area.  Another example is laying off the local management who had the institutional knowledge to make these operations successful.  An app cannot replace that knowledge and experience.  And one last example is not maintaining, or updating, critical infrastructure such as Attitash's problematic Triple or Wildcat's tired snowmaking system.  Those issues are not at all dictated by mother nature or a virus.  Those are decisions made by management.  Perhaps sacrifices were made at these areas so that your home mountain, Stowe, can operate relatively smoothly.  It is also important to note that AIG (or whatever the entity was) had invested HEAVILY in new lifts and snowmaking infrastructure at Stowe before turning the keys over to Vail.  That's a nice bonus.


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## Wolfman (Jan 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Enjoy your time there.
> Truly a special place to ski everyday !
> Hopefully Vail can pull things together.
> I did 2 stints there. First under Jim Bilotta then came back to train Brian Heon & crew


Yeah it's cool as hell. This season is a cluster though.


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## 2Planker (Jan 31, 2022)

Wolfman said:


> Yeah it's cool as hell. This season is a cluster though.


Just wait.... It should get a lot better from here on out.
The Cat in April is so sweet. Used to be, we'll see how long they go this year

I actually got married up there on May 1, and the place was still OPEN.  Saved me a $1000 for renting the lift


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Which one?  C&W, CBRE, Equity, Colliers?


Hines..we ran all of morgan stanleys bldngs..until they went cheap and hired cbre


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## abc (Jan 31, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a stowe homer shouldnt even be happy with this situation unless they are one of the lucky or retired people who can ski weekdays. if i was a long time stowe homeowner who used my place on the weekends and holidays, because my family needs to work and be in school during the week, i would be furious that my home mountain that used to be a truly premium product is now fuckin bargain bin. traffic down 108 to 100 on Saturday mornings. fuck that shit.


I used to go to Stowe a couple weekends each year. But even before Vail took over, I noticed increasing crowds year by year. Each year, there's a different "reason". There were the years when Canadian invasion when the Canadian dollars were high as a kite. Then whatever else... but the traffic got worse each year, parking harder...

Then of course it went off the top when Vail bought it. It had became a PITA to ski there. I think I only tried one year. Then jumped ship to Ikon. I mean, went to Sugarbush instead. 

But to be honest, I'm not sure what Vail could do differently in Stowe. The crowding is a "signature" of Vail. All of its "flagship" resorts are crowded. Its really a "love it to death" problem. It isn't an issue of neglect.


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## FBGM (Jan 31, 2022)

Been a while since I posted on Vail suck fest…

From another forum/Facebook thing I saw that Crotched Mt had only 1 groomer for the entire night. So 1 cat, 1 person, groom as much as you can….


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## chuckstah (Jan 31, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Been a while since I posted on Vail suck fest…
> 
> From another forum/Facebook thing I saw that Crotched Mt had only 1 groomer for the entire night. So 1 cat, 1 person, groom as much as you can….


And one lift mechanic that equals closed Monday and Tuesday. I guess they borrowed one from Sunapee after the one got hurt.


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## urungus (Jan 31, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Been a while since I posted on Vail suck fest…
> 
> From another forum/Facebook thing I saw that Crotched Mt had only 1 groomer for the entire night. So 1 cat, 1 person, groom as much as you can….


Hey, that 1 person also has all day Monday and Tuesday to ply their trade, LOL


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## FBGM (Jan 31, 2022)

urungus said:


> Hey, that 1 person also has all day Monday and Tuesday to ply their trade, LOL


That one person after grooming all night probably gets asked if they want to bump chairs all day.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

And here..lies the biggest problem.
Imagine if Rolls Royce told its customers..sorry..we cant build or service cars very well these days...
But thanx for paying up front.
Yeah..we cut the cost of the car...arent y'all happy about that though...


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## ThatGuy (Jan 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And here..lies the biggest problem.
> Imagine if Rolls Royce told its customers..sorry..we cant build or service cars very well these days...
> But thanx for paying up front.
> Yeah..we cut the cost of the car...arent y'all happy about that though...


I think one of the problems is a decent amount of the people who are skiing Epic this year are not dedicated (10+ day a year) skiers. These people don’t really have a baseline for good operations and Vail is hoping they can keep it that way and get more suckers to buy their bargain pass.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

I had many employees like this..try to get away with anything they could..then..when caught..would act all contrite...then resume the bs as soon as possible.
That..is Vail


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Been a while since I posted on Vail suck fest…
> 
> From another forum/Facebook thing I saw that Crotched Mt had only 1 groomer for the entire night. So 1 cat, 1 person, groom as much as you can….


That is sad.

This reminds me of another similar situation that I commented about on another thread.  I was at Deer Valley yesterday and I thought that the grooming SUCKED.  This is VERY unusual.  Well, in talking on the lifts with other DVR locals (mainly those that pay $2,000+ for a full pass and are not IKONer's), my observations were correct--DVR did not have enough staff to make snow quickly or groom it.  On top of that, COVID ran through the grooming department.  On January 30th they still had a huge snowmaking whale sitting on Perserverance (a MAIN run) waiting to be pushed out.  As you said about Crotched, the groomers "did what they could" with a fair number of regularly groomed runs going 2 days without grooming (and VERY icy and nasty). Very odd.  Grooming was a big marketing point for Deer Valley.  Additionally, Deer Valley used to have a line at the door of prospective employees.


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Grooming was a big marketing point for Deer Valley.  Additionally, Deer Valley used to have a line at the door of prospective employees.



Damn. Just bought my DV tix for March 3/4/5 and this sad to hear. I'm not a groomers guy but it's a big part of the DV appeal and not having that quality there currently is mind blowing. I won't mention any of this to the fam and hopefully things work themselves out by March and we can get some "world famous" corduroy on the regular during the trip.

The whole Crotched thing is also sad to hear. Never paid any attention to it until Peak started marketing the midnight madness stuff a few years back, but made a few trips and had a great time. Went twice last year as well and had a great time again, with longer lines and bigger crowds. But a great time nonetheless. Not on my radar this year since the midweek nights I could go they aren't even open.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Damn. Just bought my DV tix for March 3/4/5 and this sad to hear. I'm not a groomers guy but it's a big part of the DV appeal and not having that quality there currently is mind blowing. I won't mention any of this to the fam and hopefully things work themselves out by March and we can get some "world famous" cordoruy on the regular during the trip.


I went to DVR yesterday specifically because of lack of natural the last three weeks and my experience with the snowmaking and grooming.  There still is a lot of time before your trip so we will get SOME snow I imagine.  I did not go off trail as it was pretty beat up.  I hope that you got a deal or are using an IKON Pass because the window rate was $229 yesterday and if I paid it then I would be PISSED and demand my money back.

And I was stunned by the number of folks I ran into who were visiting from out of town who told me that they bought BOTH IKON and EPIC.  All of them said the same thing:  "we skied at Park City yesterday and it sucked, so we came here."

I also nearly fell out of the chair when a young Boston couple who visit DV  1-2x annually using their IKON Passes told me that they had NEVER been to Alta, let alone know anything about it.  I told them that our joke out here is that people ski at Park City and Deer Valley to "look at the Wasatch Mountains" rather than actually ski them.


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> And I was stunned by the number of folks I ran into who were visiting from out of town who told me that they bought BOTH IKON and EPIC.  All of them said the same thing:  "we skied at Park City yesterday and it sucked, so we came here."


I am Ikon (in addition to Epic) solely because the window price of DV tickets + buddy tix discount for the fam. I wish I were joking. Alta/Snowbird days are a bonus.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> I am Ikon (in addition to Epic) solely because the window price of DV tickets + buddy tix discount for the fam. I wish I were joking. Alta/Snowbird days are a bonus.


Maybe it was one of your buddies I rode up with yesterday (the folks from Boston).


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## pinion247 (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe it was one of your buddies I rode up with yesterday (the folks from Boston).



Maybe! Hahaha.

The folks on the Wed/Thu BOS > SLC direct flights are usually of 2 camps: the "I'm skiing Alta / Snowbird" and then the "I'm staying at Montage / St. Regis and maybe actually skiing Deer Valley for a run or two". Occasionally the "I came to Park City to party" people. That's the way it's always felt anyway  Regardless, lots of fancy boots and jackets in the overhead bins.

We thoroughly enjoy Deer Valley for what it is, but I also grew up skiing NH so no second thoughts about coming down off of Empire dripping sweat and entering the Veuve Yurt, disrupting all the Instagram models' photos. And always Alta. Sometimes Snowbird. Kids' first time at Alta this year, so fingers crossed for some snow!


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## Tonyr (Jan 31, 2022)

I skied Deer Valley twice last year and paid the window price both days as it wasn't part of the Mountain Collective pass, it wasn't worth it. (We shuttled over to Park City the other days) I was not that impressed with the mountain either although I did like the terrain off of the Empire lift, I thought the grooming was fine though but they certainly market it up.

It doesn't shock me at all that people buy both passes, If I lived in the area I would too. For under 2k you get full access to Park City and Solitude then 7 days of Alta Snowbird, Deer Valley, Brighton, and Snowbasin. It's a no brainer, a season pass to Deer Valley alone costs close to 3k. Your also striking distance to 7 days of Big Sky, Jackson Hole, and Telluride.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Maybe! Hahaha.
> 
> The folks on the Wed/Thu BOS > SLC direct flights are usually of 2 camps: the "I'm skiing Alta / Snowbird" and then the "I'm staying at Montage / St. Regis and maybe actually skiing Deer Valley for a run or two". Occasionally the "I came to Park City to party" people. That's the way it's always felt anyway  Regardless, lots of fancy boots and jackets in the overhead bins.
> 
> We thoroughly enjoy Deer Valley for what it is, but I also grew up skiing NH so no second thoughts about coming down off of Empire dripping sweat and entering the Veuve Yurt, disrupting all the Instagram models' photos. And always Alta. Sometimes Snowbird. Kids' first time at Alta this year, so fingers crossed for some snow!


The lodging, food, and entertainment options in Park CIty can't really be beat.  Especially if one does not want a car.  

And FWIW I think that after December's snow that Alta has skied pretty well overall.  ss20 can add more as he is there almost daily.  The off-trail options are getting beat up though.


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 31, 2022)

I hit it right last year at PC..dumped pretty well...
I used to base near alta/bird.. ut pc has mire stuff to do/ eat..and alta/bird is close enough


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## deadheadskier (Jan 31, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> I skied Deer Valley twice last year and paid the window price both days as it wasn't part of the Mountain Collective pass, it wasn't worth it. (We shuttled over to Park City the other days) I was not that impressed with the mountain either although I did like the terrain off of the Empire lift, I thought the grooming was fine though but they certainly market it up.
> 
> It doesn't shock me at all that people buy both passes, If I lived in the area I would too. For under 2k you get full access to Park City and Solitude then 7 days of Alta Snowbird, Deer Valley, Brighton, and Snowbasin. It's a no brainer, a season pass to Deer Valley alone costs close to 3k. Your also striking distance to 7 days of Big Sky, Jackson Hole, and Telluride.



You paid the window rate?  

For two days?

Baller!

I thought people who paid the window rate once the price jumped over $200 a day were mythical creatures.

No judgement here by the way.

I pay stupid amounts of money for other forms of entertainment myself.


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## ss20 (Jan 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The lodging, food, and entertainment options in Park CIty can't really be beat.  Especially if one does not want a car.
> 
> And FWIW I think that after December's snow that Alta has skied pretty well overall.  ss20 can add more as he is there almost daily.  The off-trail options are getting beat up though.



Honestly, it is starting to get rough.  I did not get up the hill today but heard it is icy as this front has passed through and brought wind, scouring whatever was left of loose snow.  

Favorite quote from the locker room...
"I saw the wind and was hoping maybe there'd be some wind buff"
"There's nothing left to buff!"

There is a deep, solid base.  80-90% of the mountain is open, and pretty much all the easy hiking stuff is decently covered.  We've had a couple days where we get 2-4" and it's fun for a couple days.  Off-trail is better than on-trail.  What few groomers we have are s-h-o-t with high traffic and repeated grooming.  That's another of my few complaints about Alta... essentially 1.5-2.5 runs off Collins and Sugarloaf are groomed regularly.  Alta is absolutely uncrowded skiing at it's finest but Devil's Elbow literally has me flashing back to the trails I swore I would/could never instruct on a weekend.... Long John at Mount Snow, Belt Parkway at Huntah, Great Northern/Eastern at Killington.  

So in summation...we're close but we need a couple 6" storm days to get things good again.  But much better than Park City, Snowbasin, etc.  Even the lower parts of Snowbird are pretty rough.


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## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

Attitash has a new named GM hailing from.....Hidden Valley, Missouri.  Yup, Vail has figured it out for sure!


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## Mainer (Feb 1, 2022)

The last GM came from Missouri too. It kind of makes me sad that I won’t be able to ski atticat next year. Besides when I lived out west for five years I’ve had an Attitash pass since they put in Bear Peak. I’ve had a wildcat Pass for the last 13 years or so. I should’ve bailed after last year, I thought it was growing pains or Covid, but vail just sucks. I’ve skied all the other mountains in Mount Washington Valley this year and they been normal. Atticat is trash


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## Edd (Feb 1, 2022)

machski said:


> Attitash has a new named GM hailing from.....Hidden Valley, Missouri.  Yup, Vail has figured it out for sure!


Jesus fucking Christ.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

Has this person at least run an entire ski area before?  If so wouldn't that be a step up from the guy Wildcat has who was the F&B manager somewhere else?

looking for a silver lining for you folks in NH...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

machski said:


> Attitash has a new named GM hailing from.....Hidden Valley, Missouri.  Yup, Vail has figured it out for sure!


Is that another former Peaks Resort?


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## chrisw (Feb 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Has this person at least run an entire ski area before?


Per his LinkedIn profile, Brandon Swartz has briefly run the whole operation at Hidden Valley, MO (for Vail).  Before that he ran Mtn Ops and Lift Ops at Wilmot, MI and Heavenly.  IMO these are two departments that Atticat struggle with the most.  So I'd say he's more experienced in critical areas than an F&B manager would be.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Feb 1, 2022)

chrisw said:


> Per his LinkedIn profile, Brandon Swartz has briefly run the whole operation at Hidden Valley, MO (for Vail).  Before that he ran Mtn Ops and Lift Ops at Wilmot, MI and Heavenly.  IMO these are two departments that Atticat struggle with the most.  So I'd say he's more experienced in critical areas than an F&B manager would be.


Think Brandon can drive a snow groomer and push out some of these whales?!


----------



## Mainer (Feb 1, 2022)

Let’s go Brandon


----------



## MogulMonsters (Feb 1, 2022)

Holy small hill.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 1, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Holy small hill.


More working lifts than Attitash


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## Mainer (Feb 1, 2022)

It wasn’t just Missouri that the old Attitash gm Greg gavrilets ran a ski area in. He ran hidden valley. That is insane. Holy shit. I guess vail didn’t learn the first time


----------



## machski (Feb 1, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Holy small hill.


IIRC , this area is just to the WSW of St. Louis and just SW of Spirit of St. Louis airport.  Smallish rolling hills out that way.  At least they have something nearby and are open 7 days a week (though mon-wed they just have night skiing).

Edit: To say I'd take this schedule over at Crotched anyday!


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 1, 2022)

machski said:


> Attitash has a new named GM hailing from.....Hidden Valley, Missouri.  Yup, Vail has figured it out for sure!


Another Food & Bev Manager ???
 How long did GG last ? 3 months ?
Heard that the new WC GM is actively looking & applying.  Prob a good idea.


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 1, 2022)

Mainer said:


> It wasn’t just Missouri that the old Attitash gm Greg gavrilets ran a ski area in. He ran hidden valley. That is insane. Holy shit. I guess vail didn’t learn the first time


Anybody with a brain that they probably asked first likely turned it down.  Honestly nobody in their right mind would take on that dumpster fire in NH, which eliminates alot of good GM candidates


----------



## MogulMonsters (Feb 1, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Anybody with a brain that they probably asked first likely turned it down.  Honestly nobody in their right mind would take on that dumpster fire in NH, which eliminates alot of good GM candidates


From my experience with Greg he was a stand up guy.  He seemed to be willing to do whatever it takes (even bumping the Yankee on holiday weekends) to get folks out on the slopes.  Will the new GM have any more success with sub market wages, old infrastructure with missing parts, and the fact that everyone hates Vail?

For some reason I don't think that Greg or ANY new GM will be set up for success.


----------



## Tonyr (Feb 1, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You paid the window rate?
> 
> For two days?
> 
> ...


Yea unfortunately. I paid the online price for 3 tickets over President's weekend for myself, wife, and son. Even though I booked way in advance there was no discount to the window price since the tickets were for the Saturday of President's week. We were out there last year for an extended period and we all wanted to ski Deer Valley atleast once so we gave it a shot even though the price was ridiculous. 

I ended up skiing there a second day (Friday) because I got tied up at work and didn't get a chance to get out until later in the day. So rather than shuttling over to Park City I just skied right down to the ticket window at Deer Valley instead and got about 2 hours of skiing in. They did give me around $40 or $50 off the window price since I only skied the half day, which is still no bargain.

In any event I believe more people pay the window price than what you think. I picked up my pass at Vail this year and when I was in line I noticed a bunch of people paying the absurd window prices. I work with a guy that's taking has family of 5 out to Beaver Creek for the week and spent around $4500 for the tickets which is crazy to me.


----------



## MidnightJester (Feb 1, 2022)

At Beaver Creek Its almost $220 a day for anyone "13" and over. OMG WTF. Scary


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## Tonyr (Feb 1, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> At Beaver Creek Its almost $220 a day for anyone "13" and over. OMG WTF. Scary


He got a "discount" because he bought in advance but it was still absurd for 5 days of skiing which doesn't include the flights, rental car, or hotel rooms for a family that size.

The cost of his day tickets versus passes for everyone would have been about the same although they only get to ski 5 days instead now.


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 1, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> The cost of his day tickets versus passes for everyone would have been about the same although they only get to ski 5 days instead now.


My sisters boyfriend always buys day passes and refuses to buy them online ahead of time. I’ve told him multiple times it’s cheaper to buy a pass or get the tickets online early and he’s just like .


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 1, 2022)

That guy has way too much money then...


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That guy has way too much money then...


Definitely doesn’t have a lot of money thats why its even more mind boggling to me.


----------



## FBGM (Feb 1, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> At Beaver Creek Its almost $220 a day for anyone "13" and over. OMG WTF. Scary


Good thing I identify as a 12 year old
Non gender human. Try to question me
on that and risk a law suite


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Good thing I identify as a 12 year old
> Non gender human. Try to question me
> on that and risk a law suite


So a law "suite" is likely the office where the lawyer works.  A "lawsuit" is what said lawyer files.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That guy has way too much money then...



A comparable thing would be someone who buys Phish tickets last minute off a scalping agency.  

Fuck, I hope I'm not giving Rob Katz an idea.  Scalped lift tickets.


----------



## xlr8r (Feb 1, 2022)

Looks like Tim Kelley flew out to Utah to ski at Park City.  But can't ski because Vail has not lifted his pass restriction when they said they would.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> A comparable thing would be someone who buys Phish tickets last minute off a scalping agency.
> 
> Fuck, I hope I'm not giving Rob Katz an idea.  Scalped lift tickets.


Yeah they generally don't like that 

As seen last weekend at Deer Valley (so much for that whole "old fashioned" hospitality thing):


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> Looks like Tim Kelley flew out to Utah to ski at Park City.  But can't ski because Vail has not lifted his pass restriction when they said they would.


So Epic.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> As seen last weekend at Deer Valley (they used to be into the whole hospitality thing, but Alterra doesn't want anyone stealing from them):


I would expect (and hope?) that most companies don't want anyone stealing from them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I would expect (and hope?) that most companies don't want anyone stealing from them.


Absolutely.  That said,  there is a more dignified way to do it.  Deer Valley always had lifties hand check tickets to deter theft.  They did it in a friendly way ("good morning, how are you?  I need to punch your ticket.  Thanks!")  A "punched" ticket signalled to later lifties that a human had verified the ticket and no further checking was needed.  Though it may seem old school, the experience, and hospitality, were essential parts of their brand.  Anyone who has been to Costco sees that they do EXACTLY the same process at the exit for the same reason--theft deterrance (obviously) but more emphasis on one last human connection to make a positive impression before the customer leaves the store.

It's sad that Alterra's immediate thought goes to scaring away anyone who might think of stealing in a very blunt way.  Again, it's not the normal Deer Valley way of doing things, but that all died in 2018 I guess.  Now Alterra charges a premium for the experience that largely no longer exists.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Absolutely.  That said,  there is a more dignified way to do it.  Deer Valley always had lifties hand check tickets to deter theft.  They did it in a friendly way ("good morning, how are you?  I need to punch your ticket.  Thanks!")  A "punched" ticket signalled to later lifties that a human had verified the ticket and no further checking was needed.  Though it may seem old school, the experience, and hospitality, were essential parts of their brand.    So Alterra's immediate thought goes to scaring away anyone who might think of stealing in a very blunt way.  Again, it's not the normal Deer Valley way of doing things, but that all died in 2018 I guess.  Now Alterra charges a premium for the experience that largely no longer exists.



I agree that's an odd way to do it, however, does Alterra have that same sign at other resorts? If no, then why do you think it is an Alterra decision and not some local management decision? (I can only speak to Sugarbush and they have no such signs there, so at least so far I'd say it isn't some corporate-wide directive to do at all their resorts).

As for "punching" a ticket, I'm not sure I really understand how that proves no further checking is required later in the day. What if someone somehow transferred the ticket mid-day? (if it is a friend/family member, you could even loan your jacket to them if the ticket itself isn't easy to transfer from jacket to jacket somehow).


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I agree that's an odd way to do it, however, does Alterra have that same sign at other resorts? If no, then why do you think it is an Alterra decision and not some local management decision? (I can only speak to Sugarbush and they have no such signs there, so at least so far I'd say it isn't some corporate-wide directive to do at all their resorts).
> 
> As for "punching" a ticket, I'm not sure I really understand how that proves no further checking is required later in the day. What if someone somehow transferred the ticket mid-day? (if it is a friend/family member, you could even loan your jacket to them if the ticket itself isn't easy to transfer from jacket to jacket somehow).


You're missing the bigger point--the hospitality that Mr. Stern made paramount for Deer Valley.  His family ran nice hotels.  He was the first to bring elements of a fine hotel to a ski area.  Now it's all gone.  There is no more "local" management because the long-time CEO (Bob Wheaton) retired and actually is now working with Stern's kids to open their own high-end resort.  A lot of other senior staff either retired or left.  The longtime VP for development was "let go" just two months ago in the middle of DVR applying to build a huge hotel expansion.  Additionally, the Alterra-picked CEO "left" the position right before the season.  The guy running it now is one of Rusty's bros from Mammoth.  So yes--all signs indicate that the signage, and other decisions, are indeed directed by Alterra. 

Additionally, the rate of theft you mention is pretty small.  Especially considering the number of employee interactions with people at various points.  Of course I imagine that SOME people, relatively very few, would be crafty and motivated enough to switch tickets off-premesis.  But MOST of DV's clientele were OLDER and wealthier folks (old money).  That crowd doesn't steal services.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> You're missing the bigger point--the hospitality that Mr. Stern made paramount for Deer Valley.  His family ran nice hotels.  He was the first to bring elements of a fine hotel to a ski area.  Now it's all gone.
> 
> Additionally, the rate of theft you mention is pretty small.  Especially considering the number of employee interactions with people at various points.  Of course I imagine that SOME people, relatively very few, would be crafty and motivated enough to switch tickets off-premesis.  But MOST of DV's clientele were OLDER and wealthier folks (old money).  That crowd doesn't steal services.



I'm not really missing the point. I get it. I just don't see a point in blaming "Alterra" without knowing the actual reasoning/justification behind putting up the sign. For all we know, maybe someone tried to sue them for having cameras and invading their privacy or some nonsense so they were forced to put up the sign to explain the cameras. I'm just not big into jumping to blame a particular person/entity without knowing more details about the decision itself and who actually made it and why.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'm not really missing the point. I get it. I just don't see a point in blaming "Alterra" without knowing the actual reasoning/justification behind putting up the sign. For all we know, maybe someone tried to sue them for having cameras and invading their privacy or some nonsense so they were forced to put up the sign to explain the cameras. I'm just not big into jumping to blame a particular person/entity without knowing more details about the decision itself and who actually made it and why.


I edited my post.  Re-read it, re: who is in control.  My point is the overall change in the Deer Valley experience.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 2, 2022)

My point about scalped tickets is that in the concert industry (professional sports too), ticketmaster / live nation sells off a huge percentage of tickets for popular bands to scalping agencies before they go on sale when the general public has the opportunity to buy them.   Those scalping agencies such as Vivid Seats buy these tickets for more than face value and have demand pricing.  

So apply that to ski areas.  Mr Katz sells off a block of tickets for over face value to resellers and call those holiday dates "sold out", but they provide a link to a separate website such as Vivid where people can still buy them. 

I was mainly joking.  But you never know......


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 2, 2022)

DV is like Macys...used to be a high end place...not anymore.


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## drjeff (Feb 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> My point about scalped tickets is that in the concert industry (professional sports too), ticketmaster / live nation sells off a huge percentage of tickets for popular bands to scalping agencies before they go on sale when the general public has the opportunity to buy them.   Those scalping agencies such as Vivid Seats buy these tickets for more than face value and have demand pricing.
> 
> So apply that to ski areas.  Mr Katz sells off a block of tickets for over face value to resellers and call those holiday dates "sold out", but they provide a link to a separate website such as Vivid where people can still buy them.
> 
> I was mainly joking.  But you never know......



Serious question. Is anyone aware of folks who weren't able to purchase a ticket at any of the Epic Resorts on the days during X-Mas week and MLK Weekend thus far that they siad that they were going to limit day ticket sales?   I really can't recall seeing any chatter on social media about folks not being able to get a ticket.

Maybe that was some of the plan to create a sense of a limited product, get people to buy early and not just show up and push Epic Pass purchases on folks for next season under the idea that if they buy them next year, then they won't have to worry about potentially being unable to get on the hill during the high demand vacation times they want to ski?

I know that ski lesson availability is a totally different thing this year for many, but I can't recall reading anything about folks not being able to walk up and purchase a day pass during those "limited" times


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## deadheadskier (Feb 2, 2022)

Haven't seen it at Vail properties in New England.  Other places that cap capacity have sold out many weekend days. Gunstock and Pats as examples


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 2, 2022)

I definitely bought my kid a Buddy ticket over the holiday period, and there were people buying tickets at Roundtop.  So I'm sure limiting ticket sales was some sort of Bullshit, like pretty much everything they spew corporately.


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## FBGM (Feb 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So a law "suite" is likely the office where the lawyer works.  A "lawsuit" is what said lawyer files.


No one said IPhone autocorrect was smart. Good thing I’m not either.


----------



## boston_e (Feb 2, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Serious question. Is anyone aware of folks who weren't able to purchase a ticket at any of the Epic Resorts on the days during X-Mas week and MLK Weekend thus far that they siad that they were going to limit day ticket sales?   I really can't recall seeing any chatter on social media about folks not being able to get a ticket.


I am not... but, I honestly don't know if I am aware of any friends that are skiers that don't have either a season pass or some sort of pre-paid ticket "pass-like" product.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> My point about scalped tickets is that in the concert industry (professional sports too), ticketmaster / live nation sells off a huge percentage of tickets for popular bands to scalping agencies before they go on sale when the general public has the opportunity to buy them.   Those scalping agencies such as Vivid Seats buy these tickets for more than face value and have demand pricing.
> 
> So apply that to ski areas.  Mr Katz sells off a block of tickets for over face value to resellers and call those holiday dates "sold out", but they provide a link to a separate website such as Vivid where people can still buy them.
> 
> I was mainly joking.  But you never know......


Absolutely makes sense.  Is Liftopia still alive?


----------



## abc (Feb 2, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Serious question. Is anyone aware of folks who weren't able to purchase a ticket at any of the Epic Resorts on the days during X-Mas week and MLK Weekend thus far that they siad that they were going to limit day ticket sales?   I really can't recall seeing any chatter on social media about folks not being able to get a ticket.
> 
> Maybe that was some of the plan to create a sense of a limited product, get people to buy early and not just show up and push Epic Pass purchases on folks for next season under the idea that if they buy them next year, then they won't have to worry about potentially being unable to get on the hill during the high demand vacation times they want to ski?
> 
> I know that ski lesson availability is a totally different thing this year for many, but I can't recall reading anything about folks not being able to walk up and purchase a day pass during those "limited" times


But why would Vail sell them at face value to scalpers? 

And, with all all the pass holders, who would bother running a scalper service? Who are they aiming for? Those few day trippers who didn't bother to plan ahead? 

People keep comparing ski days to concert days, or Disney visits,. Apples and oranges. Concerts of big name bands only happens once a year, at best. So it's indeed a truly high demand and "limited supply". Ski days? A ski regular will go every weekend or at least 5-7 days each season. And even for those once a year "ski holiday'er", they can easily change plans to the next weekend, or the next mountain. The "supply" is hardly critical. Scalpers won't get much above face value. 

Do you see ticket scalpers for Disney tickets? When a park is open year round, or a ski mountain open all winter, there's no "hard limit". Ski lift tickets are more like golf tee time. It's limited per day, but not limited once you adapt your plans to a different day. Scalpers don't have room to play. 

Vail's strategy of advance purchases are a well known business practiced in many other industry. Rob Katz's contribution is to tailor it to the ski industry. It doesn't involve any sort of "limit". The only ski related product that tried to create some sort of buying frenzy with a made believe "limit" is Mountain Collective. It never bore fruit as far as pushing people to buy in a hurry. 

The current talk of "limit" is more a temporary reaction by Vail to deal with selling too many passes (and the pass holders are focusing on a few mountains next to population centers)


----------



## Domeskier (Feb 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> As seen last weekend at Deer Valley (so much for that whole "old fashioned" hospitality thing):


Probably DV's way of signaling to its traditional clientele that the undesirables they see cluttering the slopes these days are actually paying customers and please stop complaining to us about poors stealing services - we're on top of that!


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 2, 2022)

Domeskier said:


> Probably DV's way of signaling to its traditional clientele that the undesirables they see cluttering the slopes these days are actually paying customers and please stop complaining to us about poors stealing services - we're on top of that!



Overcrowding at DV was a real issue in 2019/2020 with the Ikon Pass. Worst I had ever seen it, keeping in mind I ski there mainly during holiday periods. Some of this was likely due to pass swapping... like @thetrailboss mentioned earlier the old "hole punch" method worked well but the Ikon pass stuff throws a wrench in it especially with RFID gates installed and no actual person really checking passes.

There's only so many skiers that can come down that last section of Birdseye, or empty out to the top of Flagstaff. And more humorously, god forbid the Silver Lake Lodge general seating overfill and spill into the Mariposa... that'll get you some death stares.

Vail started it... sometimes feels like a race to the bottom right now. Maybe once Alterra and Vail are done with their growth phases they'll built in some tiers or something to resort access but until then Deer Valley and Beaver Creek are just as likely to get as overcrowded as PCMR and Vail, and if you've invested in DV/BC you're likely going to be pissed about that and accept any perceived attempt to calm things down. Even video surveillance apparently.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 2, 2022)

abc said:


> But why would Vail sell them at face value to scalpers?
> 
> And, with all all the pass holders, who would bother running a scalper service? Who are they aiming for? Those few day trippers who didn't bother to plan ahead?
> 
> ...




I was really just joking

But in the concert industry, the promoters sell the tickets to scalpers before general on sale dates at higher than face value and then they get marked up from there.  And often times that scalping agency is actually a business owned by Live Nation, so they benefit further. 

The reason is the promoters are betting that the demand and price tolerance of the customers is higher than what the bands want to charge their fans.  

Numerous bands have fought back against this shady practice, but Live Nation basically has a Monopoly in all of the major venues.  Pearl Jam and Nine Inch Nails would be two of such bands.  The best they could do was bargain for an allotment of tickets to their fan club that can only be purchased at Face Value.

Again just joking that Rob Katz is evil enough and Vail's monopoly in some areas large enough, that he might think that a similar greedy strategy would work in the ski business.


----------



## machski (Feb 2, 2022)

Well, since I have an Epic and have to go out to Columbus, OH for recurrent, doing a first and dragging my ski gear with.  Suppose to dump out there tomorrow so figure I'll go ski the POW at Mad River, OH.  Doesn't cost me a thing!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2022)

abc said:


> But why would Vail sell them at face value to scalpers?
> 
> And, with all all the pass holders, who would bother running a scalper service? Who are they aiming for? Those few day trippers who didn't bother to plan ahead?
> 
> ...



they would sell them to some owned or affiliated resale entity. this is basically what ticketmaster does. they sell face value ticket to their own reseller who then marks them up to 'market value'

and a huge chunk of the music world isn't a 'one concert a year thing'. people drop their lives to see phish or dead and company all summer long and need tix to every show on their route.

its not hard for me to imagine a future where vail puts an actual hard limit on day of tickets but directs you to their secondary market partner for the busiest days of the season, and your $200 day ticket becomes a $500 one


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Overcrowding at DV was a real issue in 2019/2020 with the Ikon Pass. Worst I had ever seen it, keeping in mind I ski there mainly during holiday periods. Some of this was likely due to pass swapping... like @thetrailboss mentioned earlier the old "hole punch" method worked well but the Ikon pass stuff throws a wrench in it especially with RFID gates installed and no actual person really checking passes.
> 
> There's only so many skiers that can come down that last section of Birdseye, or empty out to the top of Flagstaff. And more humorously, god forbid the Silver Lake Lodge general seating overfill and spill into the Mariposa... that'll get you some death stares.
> 
> Vail started it... sometimes feels like a race to the bottom right now. Maybe once Alterra and Vail are done with their growth phases they'll built in some tiers or something to resort access but until then Deer Valley and Beaver Creek are just as likely to get as overcrowded as PCMR and Vail, and if you've invested in DV/BC you're likely going to be pissed about that and accept any perceived attempt to calm things down. Even video surveillance apparently.


I'm pretty sure that DVR had video surveillance in 2019 at the gates.  Maybe not, but I think they did.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 2, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, since I have an Epic and have to go out to Columbus, OH for recurrent, doing a first and dragging my ski gear with.  Suppose to dump out there tomorrow so figure I'll go ski the POW at Mad River, OH.  Doesn't cost me a thing!


Ha Ha....  Have Fun !!  
I went to college 20 miles away.  Thought about going there. Until we drove by......


----------



## machski (Feb 2, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Ha Ha....  Have Fun !!
> I went to college 20 miles away.  Thought about going there. Until we drove by......


Yeah, not expecting much.  A bit better than McIntyre hopefully , a brew and a burger after remote recurrent class from hotel!


----------



## Tonyr (Feb 2, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Serious question. Is anyone aware of folks who weren't able to purchase a ticket at any of the Epic Resorts on the days during X-Mas week and MLK Weekend thus far that they siad that they were going to limit day ticket sales?   I really can't recall seeing any chatter on social media about folks not being able to get a ticket.
> 
> Maybe that was some of the plan to create a sense of a limited product, get people to buy early and not just show up and push Epic Pass purchases on folks for next season under the idea that if they buy them next year, then they won't have to worry about potentially being unable to get on the hill during the high demand vacation times they want to ski?
> 
> I know that ski lesson availability is a totally different thing this year for many, but I can't recall reading anything about folks not being able to walk up and purchase a day pass during those "limited" times


I'm not sure if they were limiting day tickets out at Vail and Beaver Creek when I was there over Christmas/New Years. I know that it was not nearly as crowded as I thought it would be. Although some of that could have been due to the Covid outbreaks that happened throughout Vail Valley during that timeframe.

I do know for a fact that Vail definitely limited day tickets at Stowe on the Sunday of MLK weekend. That Saturday I was riding the lift up with non pass holders that wanted to ski Stowe on Sunday as well but they were not able to buy day tickets for that date.


----------



## RichT (Feb 2, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That guy has way too much money then...


NOT if he keeps doing stuff like that!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2022)

Guest opinion: Subpar experience at PCMR is unsustainable
					

Vail Resorts and Park City Mountain Resort are in the midst of delivering a miserable experience both to locals and visitors.




					www.parkrecord.com


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## snoseek (Feb 3, 2022)

Posted from the attitash triple because I got nothing but time.

There's absolutely no one here. The snow is spring like and smooth. My runs so far the trail is completely empty and I'm not gonna lie it's pretty fucking good but clearly word is out and the locals are skiing elsewhere. So at what point does vail suck so incredibly bad that it's actually good?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Posted from the attitash triple because I got nothing but time.
> 
> There's absolutely no one here. The snow is spring like and smooth. My runs so far the trail is completely empty and I'm not gonna lie it's pretty fucking good but clearly word is out and the locals are skiing elsewhere. So at what point does vail suck so incredibly bad that it's actually good?



its thursday.


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## snoseek (Feb 3, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its thursday.


I mean sure I'm a midweek guy and have never seen any day this slow here and that includes late season. It's not like it's pouring rain.


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## pinion247 (Feb 3, 2022)

Surprised they're loading the triple this late. Hopefully there's some daylight left when you get to the top this evening.

Honestly though sounds pretty good. I don't often go midweek (went on Tues after MLK and summit triple was closed). Really I've only been to Attitash holiday/weekends when Wildcat is on windhold or not skiing particularly well and it's usually straight garbage. I can imagine summit runs being pretty fun if the trails are not shoulder to shoulder bodies.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 3, 2022)

Vail still sux...empty and snowing hard at Stowe..


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## snoseek (Feb 3, 2022)

I've got a soft spot for this place honestly. I don't come here often but when I do it's fun.

Just went into the lodge to piss and saw 2 employees and zero customers. That's on the main mtn side...


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## Mainer (Feb 3, 2022)

Attitash is always dead on weekdays (Except last year) They used to have a bunch of old guys that would ride the yankee until about noon. But no yankee. And the forecast called for rain today. And the old guys don’t like noT having Abenaki, they don’t want to skate to bear and back.


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## ThatGuy (Feb 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Vail still sux...empty and snowing hard at Stowe..


Just arrived at Stowe as well. Rain all the way to the base, roads were fine.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 3, 2022)

Lot of this today..maybe tomorrow not so much...


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 3, 2022)

I love upper Smugglers!


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I've got a soft spot for this place honestly. I don't come here often but when I do it's fun.
> 
> Just went into the lodge to piss and saw 2 employees and zero customers. That's on the main mtn side...


We’re they checking VAX passports


----------



## snoseek (Feb 3, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> We’re they checking VAX passports


Zero checks although it was set up.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 3, 2022)

Was so funny on Saturday. Lodge is packed at attitash, every table taken, plus people standing. Requiring a vax card to buy from cafeteria, but where you sit is open to everyone. The lady at the table next to me had her friend grab her lunch for her family, was talking about being unvaccinated. It was mayhem in there, no limiting people. Such a waste of resources to have that stupid security guard with the fake badge. So so stupid. But can’t run the lifts because lack of staff. Making bank though, parking in the overflow lots. Fuck that place.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 3, 2022)

Let's pump those trails counts lol


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 3, 2022)

looks a little thin  or as I like to call it "Sugarbush Open"


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Let's pump those trails counts lol


Technical skiing.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 3, 2022)

Changes, and not just new lifts, coming to Mount Snow next season


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Changes, and not just new lifts, coming to Mount Snow next season


Thanks for the tease. You work in radio?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Thanks for the tease. You work in radio?



THIS THING WILL KILL YOU. FIND OUT WHAT IT IS ON THE 11 O CLOCK NEWS.


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Feb 3, 2022)

The anticipation is killing me... and will likely kill the mountain that much more! Boo vail


----------



## Mum skier (Feb 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Changes, and not just new lifts, coming to Mount Snow next season


Mr Snow becomes a premium resort, only 10 days on local pass???


----------



## chuckstah (Feb 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Changes, and not just new lifts, coming to Mount Snow next season


100 percent paid parking?  Closed Mondays and Tuesdays?  No snow making?  $20 beers?


----------



## NYDB (Feb 3, 2022)

^Beat me to it.    

Maybe they will cut down or eliminate the park.  Too much wasted snowmaking


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 3, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> Maybe they will cut down or eliminate the park. Too much wasted snowmaking


But a primary draw and a big differentiator from their closest competitors. 

@drjeff's proclamation has me intrigued...


----------



## urungus (Feb 3, 2022)

Hopefully they are bringing back Fountain Mountain


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 3, 2022)

urungus said:


> Hopefully they are bringing back Fountain Mountain
> View attachment 52985


Bringing back Fountain Mountain and the Air Car tram from Snow Lake would be a pretty good draw.

Not that Mount Snow is hurting for attendance.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2022)

Is that MT Snow from long ago?  Where did they have that mound setup?

Reminds me of pictures of the DH trail at Le Massif.  They have a mound like that built up on top of the hill to meet the minimum vertical requirements


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 3, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Is that MT Snow from long ago?  Where did they have that mound setup?





			Mount Snow History - Vermont - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com
		


Good pic 1/4 way down that page with the old 60's base lodge and Fountain Mountain (I actually thought FM was on Snow Lake though...), and another pic of the Air Tram.


----------



## tumbler (Feb 3, 2022)

Not a lot of vert in the 2nd pic...


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 3, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Not a lot of vert in the 2nd pic...


Yeah, must be something different. Fountain Mountain was definitely on out on Snow Lake. Maybe there was a mini version at the base lodge or something at one point.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Not a lot of vert in the 2nd pic...


It was mainly a spring thing.  The second pics are earlier in the winter I think.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Changes, and not just new lifts, coming to Mount Snow next season


A hostile takeover of Haystack?


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> A hostile takeover of Haystack?


Stormtroopers taking over the Hermitage Club…$500 day tickets incoming…DrJeff placed on damage control


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2022)

that ufo gondola is fucking awesome. i love weird 60s future retro style.


----------



## Lotso (Feb 3, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Not a lot of vert in the 2nd pic...


No, it really is that flat


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 3, 2022)

They should remove all but one of each..that will more correctly...show his dwindeling army..


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> They should remove all but one of each..that will more correctly...show his dwindeling army..


At least that’s still more people than the Wildcat snowmaking team


----------



## ss20 (Feb 3, 2022)

Hopefully some base area changes.  Snow Lake, Sundance Lodge, Main Base all pushing 60 years+ if you can believe that...


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 3, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Hopefully some base area changes.  Snow Lake, Sundance Lodge, Main Base all pushing 60 years+ if you can believe that...


Not a fan of the lodge and base area there but I don’t matter because I don’t ski there.


----------



## Edd (Feb 3, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Hopefully some base area changes.  Snow Lake, Sundance Lodge, Main Base all pushing 60 years+ if you can believe that...


Having stayed at Snow Lake I can very much believe that.


----------



## xlr8r (Feb 3, 2022)

urungus said:


> Hopefully they are bringing back Fountain Mountain
> View attachment 52985



You can see both fountain mountains in this picture.  The little one by the base lodge is in the background


----------



## xlr8r (Feb 3, 2022)

I thought Snow Lake Lodge had already been turned 100% into employee housing


----------



## jaytrem (Feb 3, 2022)

I remember the mini mountain behind the lodge.  Probably lasted until around 1978 if I had to guess.  They also had a water wheel in the lodge near the current cafeteria.  I think the cafeteria may have been a bar at the time, maybe "The Pub" or "The Keg".  Was very disappointed when the water wheel and indoor ice rink were removed.  I did get to skate on that, can't beleive how small it was when I see pics of it now.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 3, 2022)

Mt Snow will have a new GM for next season...current one is moving to Broomfield to be VP of some department in corporate.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Mt Snow will have a new GM for next season...current one is moving to Broomfield to be VP of some department in corporate.



VP of maintenance and project planning for the entire company


----------



## cdskier (Feb 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> VP of maintenance and project planning for the entire company


So was that the big news you teased everyone about? Or is it something else more than that? Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Feb 3, 2022)

Not the worst news for Mt snow. It seems that most “planning” nowadays comes from CO regardless…. At least the person in charge of that will have been there before. Good luck Tracy!


----------



## xlr8r (Feb 3, 2022)

So the Vail GM musical chairs continues.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 3, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> So the Vail GM musical chairs continues.



IDK how wall street hasn't picked up on how alarming this trend is...


----------



## Edd (Feb 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Mt Snow will have a new GM for next season...current one is moving to Broomfield to be VP of some department in corporate.


Does Missouri have any more GMs to spare?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 3, 2022)

Local GM from roundtop is moving to Western PA to oversee 3 new resorts. It was unclear from my buddy whether he would be the GM of all 3 or oversee the existing 3 GMs.

So yes today was musical chairs at Vail apparently


----------



## So Inclined (Feb 3, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that ufo gondola is fucking awesome. i love weird 60s future retro style.



Dear Vail: replace the Summit Triple at Attitash with the monorail they had proposed and sort of half-built in the 60s, you cowards.


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 4, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> Dear Vail: replace the Summit Triple at Attitash with the monorail they had proposed and sort of half-built in the 60s, you cowards.


Anyone here ever ski that line? Probably overgrown now…


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2022)

xlr8r said:


> So the Vail GM musical chairs continues.


Recruiting ski management talent from the huge ski state of….Missouri.


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Anyone here ever ski that line? Probably overgrown now…


That line is still there as the trail Straight Shot.  Its narrow, but not very steep.  Typically open once there is enough natural snow.  Only the bottom portion is now grown in were they built the mountain coaster.


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 4, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> That line is still there as the trail Straight Shot.  Its narrow, but not very steep.  Typically open once there is enough natural snow.  Only the bottom portion is now grown in were they built to mountain coaster.


Cool
Thanks !


----------



## machski (Feb 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Recruiting ski management talent from the huge ski state of….Missouri.


I'd be OK with Vail moving mgmt from Mad River Mountain OH to NH.  Place was in better shape than Crotched and open 7 days/5 nights a week.   What they hell, that's in Ohio!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2022)

machski said:


> I'd be OK with Vail moving mgmt from Mad River Mountain OH to NH.  Place was in better shape than Crotched and open 7 days/5 nights a week.   What they hell, that's in Ohio!
> View attachment 52996
> View attachment 52997


In all fairness, Atticat's new manager is a New Hampshirite.  So maybe there is hope.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 4, 2022)

Again probably one of the deepest days of the year and no lift lines at the cat which seems weird. I bet tomorrow is insane.

Overall they seem to be doing better now there's snow, the quad ran (even a bit early) and at this point that's all I care about. I would like to know their thought process on blasting guns on pole cat in the middle of a storm lol tough day for the novices no need to make it any harder.


----------



## IceEidolon (Feb 4, 2022)

Make snow before their crew goes back home, probably.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 4, 2022)

snoseek said:


> would like to know their thought process on blasting guns on pole cat in the middle of a storm


Which part of Polecat? Upper Polecat and the track across Tomcat need as much solid base as possible. One good rain event and it’s gone. Maybe that’s why? 

I’ll be there tomorrow and expecting CROWDS. Maybe I luck out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Make snow before their crew goes back home, probably.


Exactly.  Make it when they can.  Should have been much earlier, but better than nothing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 4, 2022)

yeah its going to be cold this weekend production should be very good everywhere from where I am North


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 4, 2022)

Ohio Skiers "Disgusted" With Vail Resorts Management of Three Ski Areas
					

It’s no secret at this point, right? Vail Resorts sold more Epic Passes this season than any season before. The 20% price cut was enticing for skiers and snowboarding across the country. The …




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## machski (Feb 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Ohio Skiers "Disgusted" With Vail Resorts Management of Three Ski Areas
> 
> 
> It’s no secret at this point, right? Vail Resorts sold more Epic Passes this season than any season before. The 20% price cut was enticing for skiers and snowboarding across the country. The …
> ...


I know they were actively recruiting for Employees at Mad River, but they were only starting pay at $11.25/hr (well, with the $2/hr end of year true up "bonus", 13.25).  Out of touch a bit?  Doubt that compares favorably to jobs in the Columbus area.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 4, 2022)

Shut. The. Front. Door.

I bet Vail reads this forum and is like “what’s one thing everyone gave up on that we could deliver? No, not a excellent experience across all mountains. But what about a lift we haven’t run all year?”


----------



## urungus (Feb 4, 2022)

Vail Resorts broadsided in Park City as range of PCMR grievances brought to City Hall
					

A group of Park City residents delivered a broadside against Park City Mountain Resort owner Vail Resorts on Thursday evening, bringing a list of grievances to City Hall ranging from the operations of the resort to a Provo firm’s plans for a major development at the base area.




					www.parkrecord.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2022)

urungus said:


> Vail Resorts broadsided in Park City as range of PCMR grievances brought to City Hall
> 
> 
> A group of Park City residents delivered a broadside against Park City Mountain Resort owner Vail Resorts on Thursday evening, bringing a list of grievances to City Hall ranging from the operations of the resort to a Provo firm’s plans for a major development at the base area.
> ...





> “I would urge the Council to stand up to Vail,” said Eric Moxham, a Silver Springs resident, asserting compensation at Vail Resorts is not a living wage, telling the elected officials of lifts that are not operating at PCMR and questioning the food and beverage service.



Yes City Hall is where to raise these issues because we all know that one city council can address issues regarding wages (state/fed issue), lift operations, and food and bev service at a private ski area.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 4, 2022)

Vail at Stowe has a thing about being commited to zero...
Yeah..
Zero customer satisfaction...


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 4, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> That line is still there as the trail Straight Shot.  Its narrow, but not very steep.  Typically open once there is enough natural snow.  Only the bottom portion is now grown in were they built the mountain coaster.


So from the trail map:
Red is straight shot and was Monorail line,? What’s yellow? Green was old top notch double line. Green or yellow skiable?


----------



## Mainer (Feb 4, 2022)

I think they are resurfacing upper polecat, it has been icy. The parking lot was Almost full at wildcat today which is rare for a weekday. No lift line though. Seems to be a different crowd then in years past. Skiing was good today, going to be crowded tomorrow


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> So from the trail map:
> Red is straight shot and was Monorail line,? What’s yellow? Green was old top notch double line. Green or yellow skiable?



I believe yellow is just a power line. The old double lift line has about a 25/30 foot cliffs across the middle, which I suppose if there was enough snow you could drop.  Haven't seen tracks down it before.  Triple lift line likely poached today


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 4, 2022)

Ran into an old timer at Stowe...
Hes making these..maybe t shirts...
Boy..is he mad at them..


----------



## snoseek (Feb 4, 2022)

Mainer said:


> I think they are resurfacing upper polecat, it has been icy. The parking lot was Almost full at wildcat today which is rare for a weekday. No lift line though. Seems to be a different crowd then in years past. Skiing was good today, going to be crowded tomorrow


Different crowd for sure. I feel like alot of them are the type that would ski wildcat...but just from other places.
Pretty low traffic for a deep day.


----------



## gittist (Feb 5, 2022)

Olympic Commercial Is Nightmare Fuel For Skiers & Snowboarders
					

Have you guys seen the VISA commercial that’s running during the Olympics? It features, what appears to be, 37,000 skiers and snowboarders all descending one trail at the same time. Check it …




					unofficialnetworks.com
				




Vail Resorts on a weekend. Someone already labeled the picture at the bottom as 'EPIC"


----------



## Edd (Feb 5, 2022)

gittist said:


> Olympic Commercial Is Nightmare Fuel For Skiers & Snowboarders
> 
> 
> Have you guys seen the VISA commercial that’s running during the Olympics? It features, what appears to be, 37,000 skiers and snowboarders all descending one trail at the same time. Check it …
> ...


Who knows if that pic is legit but, if it is, it’s indefensible. Flies in the face of their Safety First philosophy.

edit: Ah, should have read the article first, not Vail, I misunderstood.


----------



## abc (Feb 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> Who knows if that pic is legit but, if it is, it’s indefensible.


Obviously not legit. But that's really not the point.

The commercial has a hint of Europe. Their slopes are kind of like that at times (home run at the end of day). So there's no "anxiety". Quite appropriate actually.

Reminds me of those famous bull run in Spain during their festival. To me, it seems crazy. Way stronger word than "anxiety" to describe it. But hey, it's considered "fun" by the locals!


----------



## gittist (Feb 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> edit: Ah, should have read the article first, not Vail, I misunderstood.


If it were a Vail property the slopes would be half that crowded because three times that many would be waiting in a lift line or trying to find parking.  

The only way to change Vail's behavior is to stop giving them your money. However, as someone pointed out earlier, more than likely Vail will get more new customers than they lose (is it 'lose' or 'loose'? I can't remember. CRS  ). At least in the short term.


----------



## abc (Feb 5, 2022)

gittist said:


> The only way to change Vail's behavior is to stop giving them your money. However, as someone pointed out earlier, more than likely Vail will get more new customers than they lose (is it 'lose' or 'loose'? I can't remember. CRS  ). At least in the short term.


When I go to Vail's competitors, I'm not thinking of punishing Vail. I'm thinking more of going where *I* prefer, aka quieter slopes. Leaving the busier slopes to those who prefer a more party atmosphere. 

(it's easier for me to say that, as I don't own any slope side property that nails me to a Vail own mountain)


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 5, 2022)

Just when it looks like Attitash might turn things around, they deliver another disaster. The summit triple was the only lift running this morning and still opened 20 minutes late. Yankee is closed with chairs piled up at the bottom terminal. Flying bear also closed leaving no access out of the bear peak side. Abanaki lift opened by 10 or so, but only ran half an hour before that broke down too. Way to deliver on a Saturday after a storm.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 5, 2022)

Met a lot of NH people at Stowe yesterday


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 5, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> Just when it looks like Attitash might turn things around, they deliver another disaster.


Attitash keeps digging their own grave. 

Wildcat running Express and Tomcat but the quad is basically dumping into Catapult only since Upper Polecat is ungroomed. Middle Wildcat is a complete shitshow, bodies everywhere. The powder is great though. Trees even better.


----------



## lobster-catcher (Feb 5, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> Just when it looks like Attitash might turn things around, they deliver another disaster.......


Sooo close to turning it around, then they take a dump in the punch bowl...on the best day seen in a looooong time.

Things I've heard this year.

Lifts can't run because it's cold out.
Lifts can't run because it's hot (?!?).
Lifts can't run because the sun is out.
Lifts can't run because it snowed yesterday.
Lifts can't run because they stole parts to make another POS chair run.
What else ya got?


----------



## Edd (Feb 5, 2022)

I’ve never been a huge fan of Attitash but it has good points. Somehow, incredibly, Vail made it worse. That’s a mean trick. I thought Vail buying Atticat would be good, for investing in the mountains. I’m obviously naive. I always am with these acquisitions.


----------



## IceEidolon (Feb 5, 2022)

They just need to spend about $20m in automated snowmaking and $20m in brand new lifts. Then they can run small snowmaking crews and save big on lift maintenance! (For maybe five years until deferred maintenance fucks them again.)

Edited to clarify: Sarcasm.


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Feb 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, since I have an Epic and have to go out to Columbus, OH for recurrent, doing a first and dragging my ski gear with.  Suppose to dump out there tomorrow so figure I'll go ski the POW at Mad River, OH.  Doesn't cost me a thing!


#crewlife    We used to have a plane with a tail locker that my skis would fit in. Now I just rent when the layovers allow me to ski. REI has much better rates than the mountains. Was in BFI twice last week. Hit Crystal then a pow day at Snoqualmie. In DTW now and thought of hitting the local bumps, but there's no IKON or Indy in the neighborhood.


abc said:


> Obviously not legit. But that's really not the point.
> 
> The commercial has a hint of Europe. Their slopes are kind of like that at times (home run at the end of day). So there's no "anxiety". Quite appropriate actually.
> 
> Reminds me of those famous bull run in Spain during their festival. To me, it seems crazy. Way stronger word than "anxiety" to describe it. But hey, it's considered "fun" by the locals!



Having failed to outrun the bulls in Pamplona (well, one bull in particular), I can assure you that many, likely even most, of those running are not locals.  A slope that crowded would have me hanging out in the lodge drinking til the crowd thinned.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 5, 2022)




----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2022)

gittist said:


> Olympic Commercial Is Nightmare Fuel For Skiers & Snowboarders
> 
> 
> Have you guys seen the VISA commercial that’s running during the Olympics? It features, what appears to be, 37,000 skiers and snowboarders all descending one trail at the same time. Check it …
> ...


Hence the no-drones policy! 

In all seriousness, someone posted pictures of crowded ski runs in China for the Olympics.  I don't think this one of those photos because they have little or no real snow for the ski trails....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2022)

That's not even the worst VISA commercial for these Olympics, The one that equated being a black athlete with being as much of a hardship as surviving 12 rounds of chemotherapy or learning to play hockey with a prosthetic leg was a real cringeworthy gob-smacker.  I predict it gets pulled.


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 5, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I believe yellow is just a power line.


Yes, that’s just a power line. It extends to the cell tower near the summit. Lots of brush on that line, it’s not skiable. Here’s straight shot from today:


----------



## gittist (Feb 6, 2022)

lobster-catcher said:


> Things I've heard this year.
> 
> Lifts can't run because it's cold out.
> Lifts can't run because it's hot (?!?).
> ...



Sounds like the excuses for when the gasoline prices go up by 5 and 10 cents at a shot.


----------



## gittist (Feb 6, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> The one that equated being a black athlete with being as much of a hardship as surviving 12 rounds of chemotherapy or learning to play hockey with a prosthetic leg...


Let's not go there...


----------



## Mainer (Feb 6, 2022)

Another beautiful attitash day. Flying bear and Yankee broken. Abenaki late opening. Just the good ole triple to start the day


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 6, 2022)

From today’s AM update from Attitash:
“The Bear has some power issues, and the Yankee has some icing problems from the storm.”

Icing problems from Friday night? It’s Sunday……


----------



## Mum skier (Feb 6, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> From today’s AM update from Attitash:
> “The Bear has some power issues, and the Yankee has some icing problems from the storm.”
> 
> Icing problems from Friday night? It’s Sunday……


So it seems Crotched, Sunapee and Attitash basically have no lifts running, even though their web sites and Epic app says lifts are running.  Ice happens, but they need to have huge announcements on the front page of web sites and use every social media platform available to warn people about limited uphill capacity. At 4.00 pm on Friday evening the Sunapee Facebook post said “Mother Nature is giving us a helping hand today, so get here early tomorrow“ So basically saying “hey all of MA drive to Sunapee tomorrow“.  Felt so sorry for anyone buying a day ticket who didn’t realize what was going on until too late.


----------



## machski (Feb 6, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> So it seems Crotched, Sunapee and Attitash basically have no lifts running, even though their web sites and Epic app says lifts are running.  Ice happens, but they need to have huge announcements on the front page of web sites and use every social media platform available to warn people about limited uphill capacity. At 4.00 pm on Friday evening the Sunapee Facebook post said “Mother Nature is giving us a helping hand today, so get here early tomorrow“ So basically saying “hey all of MA drive to Sunapee tomorrow“.  Felt so sorry for anyone buying a day ticket who didn’t realize what was going on until too late.


Vail snow reports and communication are THE worst in the industry.


----------



## icecoast1 (Feb 6, 2022)

machski said:


> Vail snow reports and communication are THE worst in the industry.


They expect you to download an app or create a twitter account to actually get up to date information, I remember the days you could just look at a snow report and see all of that


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2022)

As seen on the SR Facebook Group.  Someone decided to bare skin for Vail.


----------



## MogulMonsters (Feb 6, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> From today’s AM update from Attitash:
> “The Bear has some power issues, and the Yankee has some icing problems from the storm.”
> 
> Icing problems from Friday night? It’s Sunday……


Did those lifts ever open?!?


----------



## Mainer (Feb 6, 2022)

So cold at wildcat today, huge line. No tomcat no bobcat. My kids had cold feet after a couple runs, like emergency situation (for a 5 yr old) Go to lodge for first time at wc. Thank god my wife had her phone with her, but a screaming 5 yr old With cold feet sucks to listen too while you u scroll through your pictures looking for your vax card so u can sit down and take off her boots.  Also sucks to walk back to c lot to get your phone so u can sit with your family to warm up. The 3 groomed trails were pure yellow ice. Ungroomed was nice. Fuck vail, they have completely ruined atticat. For atticat: bobcat, tomcat, kachina, flying bear, flying yankee, double double were closed for a February weekend. Summit triple, Abenaki (maybe), wildcat express and snow cat were open. So much worse than last year if that is possible. I fucking hate vail with a passion. Look at the attitash Facebook page for a good laugh


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I believe yellow is just a power line. The old double lift line has about a 25/30 foot cliffs across the middle, which I suppose if there was enough snow you could drop.  Haven't seen tracks down it before.  Triple lift line likely poached today


My son actually dropped off the cliff before. Crazy as it had a flat landing.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My son actually dropped off the cliff before. Crazy as it had a flat landing.



Under the double?  Big balls on that boy.  Other than that launch I recall the lift line being mostly doable.  Where were you during this?  You find a work around to the sides through the trees?


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Under the double?  Big balls on that boy.  Other than that launch I recall the lift line being mostly doable.  Where were you during this?  You find a work around to the sides through the trees?


Actually looking at the map closer, I don’t think it was that cliff. It was the cliff that runs along the uphill side of lower Saco. Was about a 20’ drop or so I believe.


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 6, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Did those lifts ever open?!?


No, neither lift ran again today. On the Yankee all the chairs are back on the rope, but the chair spacing is messed up. They never even tried to spin the lift today. Abanaki lift is open, but having some sort of overheating issue.  Lots of repeated extended stops. Even the learning center triple went down for awhile today. Do they even have a lift mechanic there?  Who should have ever thought the summit triple would be the workhorse that ran all weekend without a hiccup. 120 more Vail hate comments on the Attitash Facebook page: 


	
	






__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153377836759979&id=11734549978


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 6, 2022)

Wow. I’m kinda surprised they haven’t removed the post.

There is an “Epic Pass Northeast” FB group that is an absolute dumpster fire as well.


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## nycskier (Feb 7, 2022)

This is brilliant!


----------



## MogulMonsters (Feb 7, 2022)

Katahdin said:


> No, neither lift ran again today. On the Yankee all the chairs are back on the rope, but the chair spacing is messed up. They never even tried to spin the lift today. Abanaki lift is open, but having some sort of overheating issue.  Lots of repeated extended stops. Even the learning center triple went down for awhile today. Do they even have a lift mechanic there?  Who should have ever thought the summit triple would be the workhorse that ran all weekend without a hiccup. 120 more Vail hate comments on the Attitash Facebook page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are there any petitions out there to try to get the White Mountain National forest involved?


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 7, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Are there any petitions out there to try to get the White Mountain National forest involved?


AZ should start one if not…


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## Smellytele (Feb 7, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Are there any petitions out there to try to get the White Mountain National forest involved?


I know there is one for the state to revoke Fail’s lease of Sunapee.


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## 2Planker (Feb 7, 2022)

Mainer said:


> So cold at wildcat today, huge line. No tomcat no bobcat. My kids had cold feet after a couple runs, like emergency situation (for a 5 yr old) Go to lodge for first time at wc. Thank god my wife had her phone with her, but a screaming 5 yr old With cold feet sucks to listen too while you u scroll through your pictures looking for your vax card so u can sit down and take off her boots.  Also sucks to walk back to c lot to get your phone so u can sit with your family to warm up. The 3 groomed trails were pure yellow ice. Ungroomed was nice. Fuck vail, they have completely ruined atticat. For atticat: bobcat, tomcat, kachina, flying bear, flying yankee, double double were closed for a February weekend. Summit triple, Abenaki (maybe), wildcat express and snow cat were open. So much worse than last year if that is possible. I fucking hate vail with a passion. Look at the attitash Facebook page for a good laugh


I hear ya.  Neighbors  2 kids dropped out of the race program (after 4 kids over 12 years) last week.

 On the  flip side BW was spectacular on Sunday !!!
Minimal crowds....


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Feb 7, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Are there any petitions out there to try to get the White Mountain National forest involved?


Unless Vail completely closes the place, the Forest Service doesn't care. They said as much re: Stevens Pass. Operators have broad authority to operate how they choose.


----------



## RISkier (Feb 7, 2022)

Ran across this article about the good times at Vail's NH resorts this past weekend: https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022...s-weekend-for-new-hampshires-vail-properties/


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Unless Vail completely closes the place, the Forest Service doesn't care. They said as much re: Stevens Pass. Operators have broad authority to operate how they choose.


Well.....the USFS DOES care to some extent because they get a set amount of $$$ per skier day for the leases.


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## elks (Feb 7, 2022)

RISkier said:


> Ran across this article about the good times at Vail's NH resorts this past weekend: https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022...s-weekend-for-new-hampshires-vail-properties/


The Crotched account about "Large lift lines" isn't accurate. I was there both days from 9-4 am and lines were surprisingly manageable despite the rocket being down and the GS race on Sunday. Do hope they get the Rocket back up and running quickly though.


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## Smellytele (Feb 7, 2022)

killwhat said:


> The Crotched account about "Large lift lines" isn't accurate. I was there both days from 9-4 am and lines were surprisingly manageable despite the rocket being down and the GS race on Sunday. Do hope they get the Rocket back up and running quickly though.


The dr Jeff of Crotched


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## crystalmountainskier (Feb 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well.....the USFS DOES care to some extent because they get a set amount of $$$ per skier day for the leases.


All ski area combined pay less than two tenths of one percent of the Forest Service's annual budget. 



> Some critics of Vail Resorts have questioned whether the federal government could revoke the company’s permission to operate the Stevens Pass ski area on public lands.
> 
> The company has a “special use permit” from the U.S. Forest Service to occupy its site in the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie and Okanogan-Wenatchee national forests.
> 
> ...











						With slopes limited, do Stevens Pass skiers have recourse? | HeraldNet.com
					

Lift ticket fine print bars a class action lawsuit, saying passes are non-refundable. But those might not be the last words.




					www.heraldnet.com


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2022)

Whether or not it's been firmly established that Vail does indeed suck, seems like the amount of coverage their operational issues + another year of increased crowding at their resorts will lead to some level of defection from Epic in 2022/2023. Which begs the question: will these people just jump ship to Ikon? Or leave the sport? Ski independent mountains? Some combination?

Best case for Vail but worst case for the industry is that the "just be happy you can ski at all" crowd - getting more vocal on social media by the day - sticks with Epic, procreate, teach their spawn that "this is the way skiing is", and through generations spend even more money in the base lodge and various perks and upgrades. This will introduce the world to a new *super gaper* more dangerous than previous generations of gapers. It's like really bad science fiction for the ski crowd.


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2022)

Sorry of I missed it but what's going on with the bear peak quad to be down for the past several days?


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Whether or not it's been firmly established that Vail does indeed suck, seems like the amount of coverage their operational issues + another year of increased crowding at their resorts will lead to some level of defection from Epic in 2022/2023. Which begs the question: will these people just jump ship to Ikon? Or leave the sport? Ski independent mountains? Some combination?



For me I look for 4 things in a pass

1.  A convenient quick hitter that also offers night skiing.  On Epic that was Crotched.  Replaced it with Gunstock. 

2. 1 or more destination areas with ample natural snow and tree skiing.  On Epic that was Stowe and Wildcat.  Replaced with Indy and Saddleback, Jay, Cannon, Bolton and Magic.

3. Decent variety of Mountains that have good snowmaking and cruisers.  On Epic that was Okemo, Sunapee and Attitash.  On Indy that's Waterville, Pats and Cannon.

4. Price.  I paid quite a bit more for Gunstock + Indy, but not so much that I had any pause in my decision. 

Ikon lacks #1 from my location, so that's out for me.  I'd consider replacing Indy with Ikon if I had western skiing plans.  

Really the only negative to my choice is none of the mountains on my passes really get going until early December.   But once they did, they've pretty much blown the Epic Pass mountains I would have been skiing out of the water.   No regrets at all.  I certainly miss Wildcat and Stowe, but not how they're being run.


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## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Sorry of I missed it but what's going on with the bear peak quad to be down for the past several days?


Last update from Attitash was that it was a power issue.


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Last update from Attitash was that it was a power issue.


It looks like they're running the flying bear and abenaqui. I would honestly take that trade off and lose avenger/illusion. In a perfect world midwinter all these lifts would turn


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> It looks like they're running the flying bear and abenaqui. I would honestly take that trade off and lose avenger/illusion. In a perfect world midwinter all these lifts would turn


Bear is broken.  It's definitely not spinning today.


----------



## 2planks2coasts (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Whether or not it's been firmly established that Vail does indeed suck, seems like the amount of coverage their operational issues + another year of increased crowding at their resorts will lead to some level of defection from Epic in 2022/2023. Which begs the question: will these people just jump ship to Ikon? Or leave the sport? Ski independent mountains? Some combination?
> 
> Best case for Vail but worst case for the industry is that the "just be happy you can ski at all" crowd - getting more vocal on social media by the day - sticks with Epic, procreate, teach their spawn that "this is the way skiing is", and through generations spend even more money in the base lodge and various perks and upgrades. This will introduce the world to a new *super gaper* more dangerous than previous generations of gapers. It's like really bad science fiction for the ski crowd.



Oh the Hunanity!!!!!!!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Last update from Attitash was that it was a power issue.


No one working there knows where the power switch is?


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> Bear is broken.  It's definitely not spinning today.


My bad I meant flying Yankee. Yeah I'll take that trade off.


----------



## abc (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Best case for Vail but worst case for the industry is that the "just be happy you can ski at all" crowd - getting more vocal on social media by the day - sticks with Epic, procreate, teach their spawn that "this is the way skiing is", and through generations spend even more money in the base lodge and various perks and upgrades. This will introduce the world to a new *super gaper* more dangerous than previous generations of gapers. It's like really bad science fiction for the ski crowd.


What the f*k is so "*dangerous*" about them "gapers"?


----------



## Apple Country (Feb 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> For me I look for 4 things in a pass
> 
> 1.  A convenient quick hitter that also offers night skiing.  On Epic that was Crotched.  Replaced it with Gunstock.
> 
> ...



Great assessment. I'm a total free agent coming from Mass. 

Got Epic to ski Utah this winter...didn't happen. 

Likely do Wachusett next year and indy/scrum for daily tickets - REI, ski and stay at Burke. I don't mind.


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## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2022)

It's the super gapers you gotta be careful of @abc. We're all used to normal gapers already.


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## abc (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> It's the super gapers you gotta be careful of @abc. We're all used to normal gapers already.


I'm sorry, but what's so wrong about them gapers? I'm probably one.

You'd rather I don't ski? And you have the means to bankroll your favorite mountain's operation without the wallet of people like me? I bet not. Or you wouldn't need to tolerate all the gapers who invade your playground.


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## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2022)

abc said:


> I'm sorry, but what's so wrong about them gapers? I'm probably one.
> 
> You'd rather I don't ski? And you have the means to bankroll your favorite mountain's operation without the wallet of people like me? I bet not. Or you wouldn't need to tolerate all the gapers who invade your playground.


I'd rather the stalwarts of ski culture stick around on their local/preferred hills so that the "gapers" have something to look up to. Double edge sword of the Vail/Alterra system: the side that gets the most press is that they push these resorts to their limit with cheap passes. The other side - the more valuable side - is bringing more people to the sport. Maybe there's a future balance.

Just because I make a comment here that sounds less than pleasing doesn't mean I won't show people a good line down the mountain, point them in the direction of better terrain if they struggle, or help pickup their shit after a yardsale.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 8, 2022)

abc said:


> What the f*k is so "*dangerous*" about them "gapers"?



people who have no fucking clue what they are doing and get in over their heads are a danger to themselves and the staffs of the resorts they visit. pretty obvious. two weeks ago at sugarbush there were gaggles of them failing their way down castlerock run. it makes it treacherous and not fun to ski for the people who are actually capable to ski it. 

there is nothing wrong with new people learning how to ski. there is something very wrong with people getting in way over their heads without the skills, knowledge, or experience to do it

its a snicker and an eye roll on castlerock. its dead people when they duck ropes or go thru backcountry gates out west.


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## jaytrem (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Just because I make a comment here that sounds less than pleasing doesn't mean I won't show people a good line down the mountain, point them in the direction of better terrain if they struggle, or help pickup their shit after a yardsale.



I heard you pick up their skis and toss them in the woods.  "Want your ski, go get it".


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## abc (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Just because I make a comment here that sounds less than pleasing doesn't mean I won't show people a good line down the mountain, point them in the direction of better terrain if they struggle, or help pickup their shit after a yardsale.


My apology for my harsh tone. 

I'm just saying the gapers are just skiers. I'm no fan of the current version of Vail. But it's not the fault of the Epic pass holders.


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## ThatGuy (Feb 8, 2022)

abc said:


> My apology for my harsh tone.
> 
> I'm just saying the gapers are just skiers. I'm no fan of the current version of Vail. But it's not the fault of the Epic pass holders.


ABC I doubt you are a true gaper, you seem like a competent skier. They are the people falling their way down black diamonds, snowplowing fresh snow, laying down in the middle of the trail, standing on the trails watching people go by them, or other assorted buffoonery.


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## ThatGuy (Feb 8, 2022)

While you may not be a gaper you are definitely a contrarian who likes to get people going though.


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## kendo (Feb 8, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> ABC I doubt you are a true gaper, you seem like a competent skier. They are the people falling their way down black diamonds, snowplowing fresh snow, laying down in the middle of the trail, standing on the trails watching people go by them, or other assorted buffoonery.




They were all at Stowe yesterday.  

Also 'advanced' gapers, a special breed, usually only found at Hunter ...  

Dude skiing right edge of Upper lord, I'm skiing left edge, gaper decides at very last second to hook a dogleg left at speed to cut to Liftline. Not sorry I almost took him out.


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2022)

Anyone up at wildcat today? It looks special.


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## pinion247 (Feb 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Anyone up at wildcat today? It looks special.


Not there, but drooling over the webcam.  May get there for Thursday. Vail getting bailed out by Mother Nature... not fair, but I'll take it.


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Not there, but drooling over the webcam.  May get there for Thursday if there's anything left.
> 
> View attachment 53104


I have a doc appt so I too am drooling. I'm all over it tomorrow


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## abc (Feb 8, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> While you may not be a gaper you are definitely a contrarian who likes to get people going though.


I'm not trying to "get people going". It's just there're some under current that I don't get. 

I'm a half way decent skier... now. But I haven't always been one. I wasn't born with skis attached to my feet. So there was a long period of time I didn't ski all that well, got in over my head etc. (the famous saying of you don't know what you don't know) It's a process. 

Unlike many others, I choose not to forget what it was like, and don't look down on those people even though I'm no longer like that.

I don't live in the mountains. I live in the city and go skiing on weekends for the most part. So in many ways, I still resembles a typical "gaper" even though I had learned to be a less obstructive one.


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## 2Planker (Feb 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Not there, but drooling over the webcam.  May get there for Thursday. Vail getting bailed out by Mother Nature... not fair, but I'll take it.
> 
> View attachment 53104


Just drove by at Noon.  Lot only 1/3, maybe almost 1/2  full, and 1/2 of those are employees.


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## Mainer (Feb 8, 2022)

I blew it, snowing at my house. Drove the 15 minutes to Shawnee. Pissing rain, I’ve skied in the rain a lot this year. Soaked, drove home. Still snowing at home. 
     The problem with epic and gapers is the Epic mountains around here don’t treat the gapers well. No intermediate lifts at attitash: kachina, double/doubles, Abenaki till a couple days ago. No yankee weekdays. No Bobcat at wc, no tomcat on weekends when it’s packed. Lodges are packed with a bunch of stupid rules and signs. If I was a weekend skier and just skied epic, I probably quit if this was the norm. 
    I go to all the other mountains in the region, business as usual. The non epic mountains appreciate your business and make you feel wanted. The epic mountains are you are lucky we are open and the pass was cheap. We don’t give a fuck about you. Take or leave it, there will be a bunch of people to take your spot next year. Full parking lots, huge lift lines, half the trails half the lifts. The experience of a lifetime


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 8, 2022)

Want to avoid shitshows...ski the runs less travelled...


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 9, 2022)

Does anyone know if you need to groom your trails every night (even if they are not being skiied?) to keep them in good shape?  For the life of me i can not understand why Attitash is grooming Bear Peak when the lift is broken and they have a terrain that they could be pushing out on the Attitash side.


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## IceEidolon (Feb 9, 2022)

Possible reasons, mostly not very good ones: Vail tracks a metric that's easier to achieve on the groomed areas, they made bad snow and are trying to recondition it/till out cookies, they're training someone and don't trust them on open terrain, nobody told night shift what trails to groom, someone making decisions about the grooming plan expected lift service over there, they need access for work or because there's an agreement to groom that area.

Most of the reasons I can think of don't put Vail in a good light.


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## snoseek (Feb 9, 2022)

Those trails off the summit are absolutely nit groomed. More on the grooming later...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The epic mountains are you are lucky we are open and the pass was cheap. We don’t give a fuck about you. Take or leave it, there will be a bunch of people to take your spot next year. Full parking lots, huge lift lines, half the trails half the lifts. The experience of a lifetime


My fear, which is reality at some places, is that Vail is setting a very low bar.  Other areas get shittier because, "hey, we're not as bad as Vail."  POWDR comes to mind.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> All ski area combined pay less than two tenths of one percent of the Forest Service's annual budget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True, but it is STILL a revenue source for an otherwise cash-strapped government agency.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Whether or not it's been firmly established that Vail does indeed suck, seems like the amount of coverage their operational issues + another year of increased crowding at their resorts will lead to some level of defection from Epic in 2022/2023. Which begs the question: will these people just jump ship to Ikon? Or leave the sport? Ski independent mountains? Some combination?
> 
> Best case for Vail but worst case for the industry is that the "just be happy you can ski at all" crowd - getting more vocal on social media by the day - sticks with Epic, procreate, teach their spawn that "this is the way skiing is", and through generations spend even more money in the base lodge and various perks and upgrades. This will introduce the world to a new *super gaper* more dangerous than previous generations of gapers. It's like really bad science fiction for the ski crowd.


I meant to respond to this yesterday.  I *know *that AZer's will leave.  But AZer's *are not* the target Epic market.  It will be interesting to see how the general public responds--the one/two vacation period skiers and riders.  The 10 day a year crowd.  Will they just shrug and renew?  As a publicly traded company we will be able to see what happens.  I am still in disbelief as to how bad Vail's operations have become and yet the markets don't seem to give a shit.  That said, I see that the stock price is the lowest it has been in a year.  Maybe they are catching on.  I see the YTD is 44 points down.  

And I am aghast at how the industry has seemingly ditched getting new people into the sport.  I had a friend ask me for advice on good places for their kids to learn to ski.  Prices were astronomical and simply embarrasing.  They opted for Beaver Mountain and had a great time at a decent price.  But cost is a major barrier and it seems that the industry is more focused on the "now" which means competing with Vail.  I think this is shortsighted.  

Except for small independent areas, from what I am seeing is that Vail's impact is very bad for the industry.  The skiing experience no longer matters.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

Oh boy!  Sunapee posted a warning about running out of parking on weekends on Facebook and the locals ain't happy. 



I laughed at the comment about Sunapee copying Loon's logo.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 9, 2022)

abc said:


> I'm a half way decent skier... now. But I haven't always been one. I wasn't born with skis attached to my feet. So there was a long period of time I didn't ski all that well, got in over my head etc. (the famous saying of you don't know what you don't know) It's a process.
> 
> Unlike many others, I choose not to forget what it was like, and don't look down on those people even though I'm no longer like that.


It sounds like you think the folks who criticize "gapers" were born with skis on their feet and never had to go through being beginner/novice/intermediate skiers.

Those folks have either forgotten or genuinely think they have always been hardcore experts.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> My fear, which is reality at some places, is that Vail is setting a very low bar.  Other areas get shittier because, "hey, we're not as bad as Vail."  POWDR comes to mind.


On the flip side I feel like alot of areas around here have upped their game hoping to catch some of the epic refugees. I've not been to pats peak this year but word on the internet is their operations are running full steam. I predict places like pats, cannon, cranmore ect see increased pass sales next year. Vail is inadvertently helping these areas and creating opportunity.


----------



## trackbiker (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I meant to respond to this yesterday.  I *know *that AZer's will leave.  But AZer's *are not* the target Epic market.  It will be interesting to see how the general public responds--the one/two vacation period skiers and riders.  The 10 day a year crowd.  Will they just shrug and renew?  As a publicly traded company we will be able to see what happens.  I am still in disbelief as to how bad Vail's operations have become and yet the markets don't seem to give a shit.  That said, I see that the stock price is the lowest it has been in a year.  Maybe they are catching on.  I see the YTD is 44 points down.
> 
> And I am aghast at how the industry has seemingly ditched getting new people into the sport.  I had a friend ask me for advice on good places for their kids to learn to ski.  Prices were astronomical and simply embarrasing.  They opted for Beaver Mountain and had a great time at a decent price.  But cost is a major barrier and it seems that the industry is more focused on the "now" which means competing with Vail.  I think this is shortsighted.
> 
> Except for small independent areas, from what I am seeing is that Vail's impact is very bad for the industry.  The skiing experience no longer matters.


I agree that they are not looking towards the future. People keep talking about how cheap passes are making it more affordable. The problem is new beginners do not buy season passes. Once they look at the cost of single day tickets  and rentals they decide to take up something else in the winter. Also there are the few times a year skiers who historically have not bought season passes. Many of these people will not buy the season pass and will just give up skiing.
I've ridden lifts with several people who bought the Epic Pass and are not on any ski forums. I met them at non Vail areas where they paid for a day pass despite having an Epic Pass because of the crowds at the Vail areas. They all said they definitely would not buy an Epic Pass next year. Some will buy Epic next year despite the how bad Vail was this year because they will by the BS coming out of Broomfield and the fact that it is cheap. But a lot will not. We will see.


----------



## millerm277 (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I meant to respond to this yesterday.  I *know *that AZer's will leave.  But AZer's *are not* the target Epic market.  It will be interesting to see how the general public responds--the one/two vacation period skiers and riders.  The 10 day a year crowd.  Will they just shrug and renew?  As a publicly traded company we will be able to see what happens.  I am still in disbelief as to how bad Vail's operations have become and yet the markets don't seem to give a shit.  That said, I see that the stock price is the lowest it has been in a year.  Maybe they are catching on.  I see the YTD is 44 points down.



In the long run, the enthusiasts direct a lot of the less die-hard skiers and word of mouth. Most of my family and friends, the 3-10 day a year crowd, ask me where to ski, where to get a pass or find a deal, when to go, etc. My dollars as one person who rarely spends much on-mountain besides lunch and beers, don't matter much. The 20-30 people who's vacations I wind up having a big influence on? I'm fairly certain those hurt a bit if I suggest going elsewhere. That kind of bleed of business and reputation damage happens over time and can take a long time to fix.

Same goes for when those people go somewhere and have a bad time. You screw up my day skiing, eh...lost a day and 3 hours of driving. You screw up their vacation weekend that cost into the thousands of dollars (lodging, tickets/passes for everyone, rentals, lessons, etc), they're never coming back, and they're complaining about it to all their coworkers and the like. I'd count more than a few of things posted in this thread as likely to have left people with that experience this season.



> And I am aghast at how the industry has seemingly ditched getting new people into the sport.  I had a friend ask me for advice on good places for their kids to learn to ski.  Prices were astronomical and simply embarrasing.  They opted for Beaver Mountain and had a great time at a decent price.  But cost is a major barrier and it seems that the industry is more focused on the "now" which means competing with Vail.  I think this is shortsighted.
> 
> Except for small independent areas, from what I am seeing is that Vail's impact is very bad for the industry.  The skiing experience no longer matters.



Easy, I've pretty much just been sending all those people towards those smaller independent areas for learning, Indy Pass, etc.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

snoseek said:


> On the flip side I feel like alot of areas around here have upped their game hoping to catch some of the epic refugees. I've not been to pats peak this year but word on the internet is their operations are running full steam. I predict places like pats, cannon, cranmore ect see increased pass sales next year. Vail is inadvertently helping these areas and creating opportunity.


Absolutely.  In terms of the other big players, Boyne has done a great job with promoting Brighton out here.  

Love Pats.  What a great place!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

millerm277 said:


> In the long run, the enthusiasts direct a lot of the less die-hard skiers and word of mouth. Most of my family and friends, the 3-10 day a year crowd, ask me where to ski, where to get a pass or find a deal, when to go, etc. My dollars as one person who rarely spends much on-mountain besides lunch and beers, don't matter much. The 20-30 people who's vacations I wind up having a big influence on? I'm fairly certain those hurt a bit if I suggest going elsewhere. That kind of bleed of business and reputation damage happens over time and can take a long time to fix.
> 
> Same goes for when those people go somewhere and have a bad time. You screw up my day skiing, eh...lost a day and 3 hours of driving. You screw up their vacation weekend that cost into the thousands of dollars (lodging, tickets/passes for everyone, rentals, lessons, etc), they're never coming back, and they're complaining about it to all their coworkers and the like. I'd count more than a few of things posted in this thread as likely to have left people with that experience this season.
> 
> ...


"I am coming for you, you influencer!  You are a mere mortal and no match for VAIL."


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
					

A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.




					www.parkrecord.com


----------



## jaytrem (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Absolutely.  In terms of the other big players, Boyne has done a great job with promoting Brighton out here.
> 
> Love Pats.  What a great place!


Was there on Sunday for the first time.  They seem to have an abundance of employees.  Quickly got the feeling that they really know what they're doing.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Was there on Sunday for the first time.  They seem to have an abundance of employees.  Quickly got the feeling that they really know what they're doing.


Their GM has been there for over 20 years.


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## kickstand (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
> 
> 
> A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.
> ...


I know this is stupid and completely unrelated, but I love that the guy who wrote the hot dog story has the last name Hamburger.


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## 2Planker (Feb 9, 2022)

kickstand said:


> I know this is stupid and completely unrelated, but I love that the guy who wrote the hot dog story has the last name Hamburger.


SAD, It's pretty hard to Fuck Up a hot dog....
 Sounds like  they need another Vail Food & Bev. manager to be the New GM


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
> 
> 
> A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.
> ...



This makes the $12 hot dog at Deer Valley look like an absolute steal (given it's Niman Ranch, hot, and not so sad looking)!


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> This makes the $12 hot dog at Deer Valley look like an absolute steal (given it's Niman Ranch, hot, and not so sad looking)!


The best deal at DV is the $20 burger at the Montage.  Locally sourced burger, comes with fries and pickles. Honestly you leave there feeling like you didn't get ripped off......as long as you opt for water vs the $7 coffee or soda.

The turkey chili (idk $$)  was REALLY good at one of the DV lodges too.


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## pinion247 (Feb 9, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> The best deal at DV is the $20 burger at the Montage.  Locally sourced burger, comes with fries and pickles. Honestly you leave there feeling like you didn't get ripped off......as long as you opt for water vs the $7 coffee or soda.
> 
> The turkey chili (idk $$)  was REALLY good at one of the DV lodges too.


My go-to at DV is turkey chili over french fries. Powers me through last chair. Maybe $15? Totally worth it.

Last time I was at PCMR (4 years ago?) the on-mountain food scene seemed pretty solid. Sad that it has seemingly suffered the same fate as the rest of the resort.


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## MogulMonsters (Feb 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> My go-to at DV is turkey chili over french fries. Powers me through last chair. Maybe $15? Totally worth it.
> 
> Last time I was at PCMR (4 years ago?) the food scene seemed pretty solid. Sad that it has seemingly suffered the same fate as the rest of the resort.


I'd buy the $20 burger all day and have the $15 turkey chili for lunch.   I would never, ever, ever buy a $9 cold hot dog when I could put a PJ&J in my pocket.
The chili is signature.  People are excited to buy it and the profit margin is tremendous.

Vail's missing the big picture. Fool me once...


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## kendo (Feb 9, 2022)

Vail corp video crew drinking at Spruce Lodge bar at Stowe.  Promo video for east coast resorts.   Dude's from Wyoming.  First trip east.  At Mt Snow tomorrow and then Hunter.  

He was commenting how crowded it was here at Stowe (um, it's literally dead today).  I suggested he tightened his helmet when he hits Hunter.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

kickstand said:


> I know this is stupid and completely unrelated, but I love that the guy who wrote the hot dog story has the last name Hamburger.


Comic relief is very much appreciated!


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> This makes the $12 hot dog at Deer Valley look like an absolute steal (given it's Niman Ranch, hot, and not so sad looking)!



Niman Ranch makes a great dog

Personal favorite is a local dog.  Shields out of York, ME.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 10, 2022)

I watched them filming on liftline.
He thinks it was crowded??.


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## kendo (Feb 10, 2022)

Think they were with TGR.  Mentioned they got a sunset shot of the (soon to be iconic) Stowe sign, top of the gondola. 

Can't see anything up top today... pea soup.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2022)

if they said they were from wyoming tgr makes more sense than vail corporate


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## drjeff (Feb 10, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> I'd buy the $20 burger all day and have the $15 turkey chili for lunch.   I would never, ever, ever buy a $9 cold hot dog when I could put a PJ&J in my pocket.
> The chili is signature.  People are excited to buy it and the profit margin is tremendous.
> 
> Vail's missing the big picture. Fool me once...



DV turkey chili with a piece of their German Chocolate Cake for dessert is without a doubt my absolute favorite on hill meal I have had


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## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2022)

The LAST place any corporate Vail reps wanna be is in NH....


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 10, 2022)

Funny...i said to a guy on the lift..wonder who they are..sure nit TGR...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2022)

Very interesting statistic from this article: 









						At 88 years old, Stowe is still king of the mountain - New England Ski Journal
					

There is a very short list of things New Yorkers and Bostonians agree on, and you can add Stowe, Vermont, to that exclusive group.




					www.skijournal.com
				






> More than 25 percent of Stowe’s reservations come from Massachusetts (the most popular of visiting states). New York accounts for 17 percent, while 12 percent come from Connecticut, for a combined 29 percent. Talk about an intriguing coming together of the clans. Seems like Yankees and Red Sox fans don’t disagree on everything.



I would have thought more NYers.  Kind of sinks my idea that Vail was appeasing the NY market and not MA market.

And I never heard it called the "Vail of the East"--I've heard it called the "Aspen of the East".



> Though known in some circles as “The Vail of the East,” that moniker smacks of hyperbole (even though Stowe came under the Vail umbrella five years ago).


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Very interesting statistic from this article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow no kidding. I wonder what the breakdown for a place like loon would work out to. I would love to see a bunch of areas and data for this kind of thing.

Oh and as far as ski area food goes I will ski at a vail property but never give them any other money. I've costed lots of menus for various sit downs...it's just so wrong. If you find yourself at Northstar remember lunch and cocktails will be infinitely better and quite a bit cheaper if you walk into the Ritz. That blows my mind.

If the village has indy bar or restaurant that's not paying lease to vail I'm all over it.


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## abc (Feb 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> And I never heard it called the "Vail of the East"--I've heard it called the "Aspen of the East".


Well, Vail's point of view.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2022)

abc said:


> Well, Vail's point of view.


That's exactly what I thought--a unilateral change of a decades-old-monniker.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wow no kidding. I wonder what the breakdown for a place like loon would work out to. I would love to see a bunch of areas and data for this kind of thing.
> 
> Oh and as far as ski area food goes I will ski at a vail property but never give them any other money. I've costed lots of menus for various sit downs...it's just so wrong. If you find yourself at Northstar remember lunch and cocktails will be infinitely better and quite a bit cheaper if you walk into the Ritz. That blows my mind.
> 
> If the village has indy bar or restaurant that's not paying lease to vail I'm all over it.



anecdotally, hardly anyone from ny skis loon/nh. most people i talk to down here who are moderately conversant in vermont ski areas don't know shit about NH. and the parking lot at cannon and loon is mass plates as far as the eye can see.

there just isn't much reason to ski NH and drive that far east when VT is more directly north of us.

i personally love getting a few days in NH and ME, but the overwhelming majority of my skiing has always been and will always be in VT


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## abc (Feb 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> anecdotally, hardly anyone from ny skis loon/nh. most people i talk to down here who are moderately conversant in vermont ski areas don't know shit about NH. and the parking lot at cannon and loon is mass plates as far as the eye can see.
> 
> there just isn't much reason to ski NH and drive that far east when VT is more directly north of us.
> 
> i personally love getting a few days in NH and ME, but the overwhelming majority of my skiing has always been and will always be in VT


There's no getting away from the fact the Greens gets quite a lot more snow than the Whites.

Also in terms of driving, crossing east-west is just slow going. Whilst shooting straight up north, even all the way to Jay, is much less stressful, especially in iffy weather.

I go to NH a lot, for other reasons. I love Wildcat and enjoyed Attitash. But if I didn't have other reason to go to NH in the first place, I don't think I would have known enough about those mountains, let alone going there specifically to ski them.

What I used to like about skiing WC was the early and late season. But with Vail botching those operations, I haven't skied it the last 2 years. That fact also weights in when I pretty much decide not to renew my Epic pass going forward. (it's only a small factor though)


----------



## Zand (Feb 10, 2022)

Yeah I was going to say NH and Maine are pretty much just havens for MA and RI. No reason for people in CT, NY, and points SW to drive past Vermont especially to places like Loon and Waterville which arent much different than something in the Catskills or southern VT.


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## drjeff (Feb 10, 2022)

If one just looks at the interstate highway layouts, much easier for the Boston and CT market to use the 93/89 or 91/89 routes to get to Stowe.

Not as "easy" for the NY market, unless they're already going over to 91 and up that way to get to Stowe, as for many of the masses the proximity of a ski area to a major highway that isn't too far from the beginning of their trip is a significant determining factor, and for the masses, that is a much bigger factor for many than for us AZ enthusiasts.  

No real shocker that the NY crowd stays away from the NH resorts....  Who in their right mind would actively want to drive across my home state of CT to get there and back?    

As for some of the customer data that resorts have about their guests.  I remember talking with Kelly Pawlak when she was GM of Mount Snow about this (Now President of the National Ski Areas Association) and even 5 years or so ago, they had the data down that they (Mount Snow marketing then) knew what specific towns their core customer base was from and was doing target add buys for billboards, etc in specific places, since they knew that 1 town over was a Stratton town or an Okemo town, etc


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## drjeff (Feb 10, 2022)

Zand said:


> Yeah I was going to say NH and Maine are pretty much just havens for MA and RI. No reason for people in CT, NY, and points SW to drive past Vermont especially to places like Loon and Waterville which arent much different than something in the Catskills or southern VT.



Some of the CT crowd (along the 395 corridor and the 84 corridor  North and East of Hartford) are NH regulars as it's easy access to 495 and then either 3 or 93 and about the same time as many VT areas.  For example from my house in Northeast CT, it's roughly 3 hours +/- 15 minutes to Mount Snow, Stratton, and Okemo, which is basically the same time to Loon/Waterville/Cannon


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## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2022)

BW has already said that they're gonna make a run at Last in NH this year


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> BW has already said that they're gonna make a run at Last in NH this year


Loon will be their only competition and loon sits alot lower.


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## abc (Feb 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Loon will be their only competition and loon sits alot lower.


Why not Cannon?


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## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Some of the CT crowd (along the 395 corridor and the 84 corridor  North and East of Hartford) are NH regulars as it's easy access to 495 and then either 3 or 93 and about the same time as many VT areas.  For example from my house in Northeast CT, it's roughly 3 hours +/- 15 minutes to Mount Snow, Stratton, and Okemo, which is basically the same time to Loon/Waterville/Cannon


That's why we love NH.   Nothin' against southern NE and NY'ers  But we are def way less crowded than S & Cent VT

 Our RI house is right on CT  stateline and it's 3h 20mins to  Conway


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> That's why we love NH.   Nothin' against southern NE and NY'ers  But we are def way less crowded than S & Cent VT
> 
> Our RI house is right on CT  stateline and it's 3h 20mins to  Conway



point generally taken, but loon on a Saturday can be just as bad as anywhere


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> point generally taken, but loon on a Saturday can be just as bad as anywhere


Truth. I wouldn't dare


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

abc said:


> Why not Cannon?


Cannon could but they don't usually play that game.


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## 2Planker (Feb 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> point generally taken, but loon on a Saturday can be just as bad as anywhere


Hate Loon due to the insane crowds, Haven't been in 10+ years.....
 N Conway Chamber Pass covers 5 places including BW.
Will also hit Saddleback and SR in Late March


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

Cannon 5 minutes ago. Mittersill actually.

And the empty but open lift. This is why I like nh and don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of vermont skiing as well.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2022)

Cannon has a hard stop by roughly Patriots Day.  They need to close down the mountain and then those staff immediately head to Flume Gorge to open it for the season.   The year round staff move back and forth between ski operations and the local state park operations.


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## eatskisleep (Feb 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> BW has already said that they're gonna make a run at Last in NH this year


It’s too bad BW is so flat. A nice top to bottom bump run would be great for late season.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2022)

Vail Resorts Sold a Record Number of Passes. Now Their Ski Areas Are Facing a Logistical Nightmare.
					

Employees fear the corporate behemoth bit off more than it could chew, while pass holders cry foul about overcrowding and reduced hours




					www.skimag.com


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## Smellytele (Feb 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> That's why we love NH.   Nothin' against southern NE and NY'ers  But we are def way less crowded than S & Cent VT
> 
> Our RI house is right on CT  stateline and it's 3h 20mins to  Conway


Besides loon which is just as crowded


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## skef (Feb 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> anecdotally, hardly anyone from ny skis loon/nh.


Anecdote: When I was at Loon on (I think) January 28, standing in the longest line I've been in this season (tens of minutes, for the Seven Brothers lift, to get out of the Octagon pod in the post-lunch crush), I ended up next to a couple of NY bro's who were there for the first time, having switched to Ikon passes after a terrible (crowded) previous season at Mount Snow on Epic. They resourcefully used the wait time to down some beers.


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## pinion247 (Feb 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail Resorts Sold a Record Number of Passes. Now Their Ski Areas Are Facing a Logistical Nightmare.
> 
> 
> Employees fear the corporate behemoth bit off more than it could chew, while pass holders cry foul about overcrowding and reduced hours
> ...


This article has split a nuanced situation into easily understood pieces and tell a cohesive narrative about what Vail is getting wrong, and I applaud Ski Mag for being one of the only outlets to pull that off so far.

Still no mention of NH resorts, and I have a feeling that everyone in the state they interviewed said something along the lines of "dude, Vail fucking sucks" so it was not fit for print


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail Resorts Sold a Record Number of Passes. Now Their Ski Areas Are Facing a Logistical Nightmare.
> 
> 
> Employees fear the corporate behemoth bit off more than it could chew, while pass holders cry foul about overcrowding and reduced hours
> ...


I think I've read this comment in here before:



> “A lot of those regional directors and people in Broomfield weren’t really familiar with the intricacies of operating a ski resort in the Midwest or the East Coast, which need snowmaking early and often to maintain a proper snow surface,” the employee said. “They were used to snowmaking conditions like you find in Colorado, where you just make snow up until the Christmas holiday and then you stop because it’s supplemented by natural snow.” As a result, the employee said, Vail’s new acquisitions have seen a slower opening schedule.



And holy shit....



> Critics, however, point out that warm weather didn’t stop many of its rival resorts. “When the independent resorts have 50 percent of their terrain open, the Vail resorts have 20 percent of their terrain open,” said the former Peak employee. “They’re all in the same climate.” *In Ohio, for example, Boston Mills didn’t open for the season until January 7, while Snow Trails in Mansfield (about an hour’s drive away) was open before Christmas. And though Stevens Pass opened on December 15, by mid-January about 60 percent of the terrain was still inaccessible—an unusually high percentage compared to other Washington resorts, which had most of their serviceable terrain open by then.*


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 10, 2022)

Only time i ever entered NH was to ski Tux.
Now NH people are coming over to Stowe..


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Only time i ever entered NH was to ski Tux.
> Now NH people are coming over to Stowe..


We always have. Nh vt and maine are one big to me.


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## chuckstah (Feb 10, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Only time i ever entered NH was to ski Tux.
> Now NH people are coming over to Stowe..


Been skiing Stowe forever. Easy day trip from most parts of the state but especially for those near the 93 corridor. Same with anywhere Killington North. The drive to the S. VT areas kinda sucks in comparison.


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## lobster-catcher (Feb 10, 2022)

Helmet stickers for this dumpster fire of an experience.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2022)

lobster-catcher said:


> Helmet stickers for this dumpster fire of an experience.
> View attachment 53130


Amazing how he cut Epic prices, boosted revenues, and then resigned.  Looks like pump and  dump.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 11, 2022)

Pretty much


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## 1dog (Feb 11, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Cannon has a hard stop by roughly Patriots Day.  They need to close down the mountain and then those staff immediately head to Flume Gorge to open it for the season.   The year round staff move back and forth between ski operations and the local state park operations.


Barrons ( Monday, Jan 24th) had post on Vail stock potentially headed $400-$600 based on shrinking ski areas- 15% less than 30 yrs ago - more accessible skiing due to work-from-anywhere changes, and buying 'more valuable assets' like Seven Springs in PA ( $125M)

They still have the avg 10.9 million skiers/riders in US only at 5-6 days a year and believe that could double ( ski days) - doesn't bring in more ticket sales necessarily but it does bump up the large margin F&B potential.  I know nothing about the investment firm they interviewed - Durable Capital Partners - he's a newer guy on the Roundtable.  Dominating markets seem to have pricing power - even AM raised their base Prime another $20- and did so 4 years ago, another 20%.  Article mentioned Alterra did not follow suit on price reduction last year.


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## abc (Feb 11, 2022)

1dog said:


> Article mentioned Alterra did not follow suit on price reduction last year.


Businesses choose to handle the disruption of Covid differently. They do what they "think" is right for their business. They may be right, or they may be wrong.

There's no crystal ball. As investors, you either agree with the strategy and buy in the hope the business succeed. Or you sell if you think they made a wrong move that will hurt the business.


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## njdiver85 (Feb 11, 2022)

Vail's next acquisition . . . a construction company that specializes is building large multi-story gated concrete garages so they can charge all 2million+ passholders $20 per day to park


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 11, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Whether or not it's been firmly established that Vail does indeed suck, seems like the amount of coverage their operational issues + another year of increased crowding at their resorts will lead to some level of defection from Epic in 2022/2023. Which begs the question: will these people just jump ship to Ikon? Or leave the sport? Ski independent mountains? Some combination?
> 
> Best case for Vail but worst case for the industry is that the "just be happy you can ski at all" crowd - getting more vocal on social media by the day - sticks with Epic, procreate, teach their spawn that "this is the way skiing is", and through generations spend even more money in the base lodge and various perks and upgrades. This will introduce the world to a new *super gaper* more dangerous than previous generations of gapers. It's like really bad science fiction for the ski crowd.


dude you nailed it, and they are well on there way to getting their best case scenario.

I am on a couple epic pass based Facebook accts. here's what many say in the epic pass northeast group:

stop bitching about lines, I'm here at mount snow on a Tuesday and I don't see any lines, vail is great, you guys are exaggerating things.

Mother nature stopped vail from making snow early. Places like (insert any non vail resort close to another vail resort here) that did are stupid. 

(early in season): just be happy (insert vail resort name here) has a few runs open, its better than nothing!

Wildcat was always a run down dump that had issues with everything, same with Attitash. Vail inherited a mess, its not vail's fault the snowmaking and lifts don't work stop complaining

Vail made skiing affordable for everyone stop complaining you elitist A holes. 

Well, if you aren't at the resort 2 hours before the lifts spin on the weekends you're an idiot, it's not Vail's Fault you were in a 3 mile traffic jam at 8:15 to get to Sunapee last saturday. (lifts open at 8:30)

There have always been huge lines at Mt Snow, Stowe and Okemo, that fact they are now twice as long isn't Vail's fault.

There's always been traffic at Mt. Snaow and Okemo those small town have always had small roads its not vails fault blame the towns they need to build bigger roads!

long lift lines are part of skiing- just be happy you can ski.  BE POSITIVE!!!

Are you kidding me? I slog to sunapee almost every weekend with my kids (10 and 12, excellent skiers), get there an hour before the lifts open at 830 and by 11 am the place is so busy its just not worth the lines or the bumper car skiing. 2 weeks ago the line to get food in the cafeteria was LITERALLY OUT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE LODGE. That just shouldn't happen. 

I go to  Mt Snow, Okemo and Stowe on weekdays only because I just cant imagine the lines and crowds on the slopes on the weekends there will let me actually enjoy myself. Crotched is almost as bad. The trails at the top of that mountain where the rocket drops you  simply cannot handle the amount of skiers they get. All the trails up there get scraped off in an hour at most and then its slide on icy hardpack, dodge other skiers as best you can  and pray till you get to mid mountain.

I had passes to Ragged the last 5 years and could show up when ever I wanted and not have a traffic jam, could find parking, and the lift lines were never out of control. Holiday, weekends, didn't matter. Trails were consistently excellently maintained  and not overcrowded. 

skiing should be fun, not an endeavor that takes planning similar to the D day invasion of Normandy just to avoid traffic jams and get parking.

Rant over, I'm off to see what day next week I can take off to ski stowe.


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## njdiver85 (Feb 11, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> an endeavor that takes planning similar to the D day invasion of Normandy



I think that about sums up what going to a Vail owned resort on a Saturday is!!!  Well done


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> *Vail made skiing affordable* for everyone stop complaining


I hate to say it but there's a lot of truth in that. 

"Affordable" means exactly that. People who otherwise can't afford it now *can*!

So more people, crowds are the direct consequence.

Make a limited capacity product "affordable", you'll reach and exceed the capacity.


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## Telcb (Feb 11, 2022)

machski said:


> I did see where Vail admitted that they inherited quite a bit of deferred or poorly maintained systems in NH.  Don't think they mentioned specifics


They didn’t inherit anything. They purchased what they have and should have identified any deficiencies during the due diligence process. Sounds to me like they didn’t/don’t have a plan. I see the same issues mentioned about Vail properties in other parts of the country as well, not just NH.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2022)

njdiver85 said:


> Vail's next acquisition . . . a construction company that specializes is building large multi-story gated concrete garages so they can charge all 2million+ passholders $20 per day to park


That's Alterra's strategy with Deer Valley.


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## ericfromMA/NH/VT (Feb 11, 2022)

abc said:


> I hate to say it but there's a lot of truth in that.
> 
> "Affordable" means exactly that. People who otherwise can't afford it now *can*!
> 
> ...


and reduce its value, and make the experience unenjoyable. Brilliant!!!!


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## pinion247 (Feb 11, 2022)

@ericfromMA/NH/VT  I think we belong to the same FB groups hahaha. Spot on with your assessment of their chatter. 



Telcb said:


> They didn’t inherit anything. They purchased what they have and should have identified any deficiencies during the due diligence process. Sounds to me like they didn’t/don’t have a plan. I see the same issues mentioned about Vail properties in other parts of the country as well, not just NH.


No operational plan. Just growth apparently. I was defending Wildcat's "drop ropes at all costs" mentality on FB and somebody responded that Upper Wildcat used to be a snowmaking trail and Peak/Vail destroyed that. Which is partly true... back when WC had 90%+ coverage. And that system SUCKED. Peak improved snowmaking to some core trails but the system still sucks. And this is where the online groups get messy... many different people want many different things out of Vail properties. You want tons of snowmaking at Wildcat? Cool. That's not a super pragmatic use of resources right now. Bigger losses to that particular mountain are lack of snowmaking from the existing system, no Bobcat pod for 2 years, and inconsistent grooming.  What I like about this (admittedly long) discussion here on AZ is that I think most of us want consistency from Vail on a *per resort basis* and that's not what is happening. *queue joke about Vail resorts being consistently bad*

I may edit this later to clarify my points but for now I'm just hitting reply.


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## IceEidolon (Feb 11, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> @ericfromMA/NH/VT  Wildcat


From here it sounds like Vail needs to commit to having a minimum core snowmaking team at season start, have the upper mountain water supply fixed,  and have the system tested and ready to rock for November snowmaking. Going forward and depending on where there's power, having, say, one first string trail and one second string trail upgraded to auto guns is a great way to let your crew focus on tricky upper mountain/manual stuff while increasing system utilization. But that all requires Vail put money into things other than flashy new lifts, and Peaks and previous owners didn't exactly leave behind a solid foundation to expand from - doing more than dropping auto fans on a trail probably means replacing pipe, too, and there's more $$$.


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## eatskisleep (Feb 11, 2022)

abc said:


> I hate to say it but there's a lot of truth in that.
> 
> "Affordable" means exactly that. People who otherwise can't afford it now *can*!
> 
> ...


They also made it unaffordable for those that just want to ski a day here and there, or a handful of days. Now they have to buy a sEpitic Pass.


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## FBGM (Feb 11, 2022)

Your turn Vail


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## FBGM (Feb 11, 2022)

ericfromMA/NH/VT said:


> dude you nailed it, and they are well on there way to getting their best case scenario.
> 
> I am on a couple epic pass based Facebook accts. here's what many say in the epic pass northeast group:
> 
> ...


This is actually Rob Kitty Cats alias on this site.


----------



## Lotso (Feb 11, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> They also made it unaffordable for those that just want to ski a day here and there, or a handful of days. Now they have to buy a sEpitic Pass.


BINGO!!!! That is what is most sad here. I used to enjoy trying out different areas, but now those days are gone, except for the little indy areas that still don't soak you for day tickets. This is a terrible direction for the industry.


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> They also made it unaffordable for those that just want to ski a day here and there, or a handful of days. Now they have to buy a sEpitic Pass.


Is that so? Isn't there some "epic day pass"? How much is it per day?


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## catskillman (Feb 11, 2022)

Telcb said:


> They didn’t inherit anything. They purchased what they have and should have identified any deficiencies during the due diligence process. Sounds to me like they didn’t/don’t have a plan. I see the same issues mentioned about Vail properties in other parts of the country as well, not just NH.


exactly.  who did the due deligence on these resorts.  They should have reviewed not only the age of everything, maintenance records, life of the asset left after depreciation left on the books, not to mention a physical and active inspection of all lifts, stability of all lift towers and all infastructure, I can go on and on.  

And - any major acqusition these day, would certianly include all customer satisifaction survey info, customer date, CRM.... and definitely local published opinions.

They did buy all Peak Resorts at fire sale value, so did they know / care / ignore all the isues in the peak resorts???  

This is a mess in all resorts.  They can blame covid, lack of J1's etc. and I know from years of observation , and those of you on these pages that issues were inherated, as in all M&A, but they existed in long owned resorts.

What a mess, and itw won;t be fixed anytome soon


----------



## abc (Feb 11, 2022)

catskillman said:


> They did buy all Peak Resorts at fire sale value, so did they know / care / ignore all the isues in the peak resorts???


Of course they know! But do they care? 

We can see the answer as clear as day!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2022)

FBGM said:


> View attachment 53152
> 
> 
> Your turn Vail


Still not enough to afford living in Aspen or anywhere close by.


----------



## chuckstah (Feb 11, 2022)

Sunapee has a new strategy. Please ski the shitty freeze day and skip the perfect Saturday ski day. We don't have room for you....


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 12, 2022)

Wow....


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## eatskisleep (Feb 12, 2022)

abc said:


> Is that so? Isn't there some "epic day pass"? How much is it per day?


I meant they are forced into buying a epic season pass since the “deal makes cents”


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 12, 2022)

Lotso said:


> BINGO!!!! That is what is most sad here. I used to enjoy trying out different areas, but now those days are gone, except for the little indy areas that still don't soak you for day tickets. This is a terrible direction for the industry.


Yep!!!!!


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## Smellytele (Feb 12, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> I meant they are forced into buying a epic season pass since the “deal makes cents”


only cents not dollars?


----------



## catskillman (Feb 12, 2022)

Today lifts down at Hunter.  Check out the lines in the video posted by Hi Hey on the Facebook "Hunter Ski Bums" page.  And people are still coming in on the live web cam and many leaving just as fast.  Lines are down significantly now as people leave..  Wonder if the north and west lifts are running, if not there are going to be a lot of angry people who have no way back to their car.


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## Edd (Feb 12, 2022)

Parking lots full at Wildcat.  Shuttling from Great Glen parking, per Twitter.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 12, 2022)

Edd said:


> Parking lots full at Wildcat.  Shuttling from Great Glen parking, per Twitter.


Crazy here. Bobcat running so crowds are dispersed nicely across the mountain. Long lines. Amazing spring conditions.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 13, 2022)

Never seen the parking lots overflowing at wildcat like yesterday. Almost turned around, but sneaked into c lot, was not getting involved with a shuttle. Skiing was nice, great to have bobcat open again. People said it took over a hour to buy tickets. The gm was working crowd control, I harassed him a bit about not having tomcat open. Trails never seemed too crowded, warm spring skiing and pocket beers made for a nice day.


----------



## doublediamond (Feb 13, 2022)

There are people here blaming the sorry state Peak left the mountain in for troubles today…

I’m not sure how you can blame Peak for snowmaking issues in 2022 at Wildcat. Peak replaced close to 11 miles of water pipe on the mountain. Vail owned the place for 2 years and the new booster pumps Peak put in broke and the new pipe Peak put in on Lynx failed. I’m sorry that’s not a Peak issue. That’s a Vail maintenance issue.

If it was the first year you might have a point. But Vail came in and slashed salaries and cut positions and this is what happens: deferred maintenance rearing its head.

Even if the mountain was in shambles, Vail has had TWO FULL summers to ID issues and replace them: pumps, pipe, etc.

No snowmaking on Bobcat or even running that lift until recently? Again, Peak made snow there, and ran Bobcat even on weekdays mid-season. Again these are consequences for Vail decisions; it’s not on Peak.

Should Upper Wildcat have snowmaking back? Maybe. But 3 core routes (hard green Polecat, medium blue Catapult, hard blue Lynx) is sufficient and UWC provides an “easier” natural black from the top. And with the limited water it’s better to put that water lower on the mountain and on core trails. Should Peak have put more money into the snowmaking system? Possibly but is there an economic benefit? They need a bigger electric grid through the notch. They need more water. That’s A LOT of money — we’re talking West Lake money if not more because of the grid costs — for an area that gets ~15% of the skier visits. You’re X-year return is now a 7X-year return.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 13, 2022)

For the most part I think you are preaching to the choir? Maybe I have selective memory, but most of the convo here concerning WC points the finger directly at Vail’s ownership from what I recall.



doublediamond said:


> And with the limited water it’s better to put that water lower on the mountain and on core trails.


Amen. Skiing with my kids off Bobcat lift this past weekend brought back all the feels and I really wish those lower mountain blues would be available for more of the season.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 13, 2022)

I'd never expect a major snowmaking investment with new transmission lines up Pinkham, expanded reservoir etc.  Just maintain the pipes, pumphouse and gun fleet.  And SPEND on labor and take risks early season when the temperature windows are small.  The reality is they only have maybe 125 acres of terrain they need to cover.  

Peak was also often guilty of the latter.  They shared snowmaking staff with Attitash too and often didn't turn the guns on with short windows.  But Vail takes it to a whole nother level.  And the place is busier than ever from what I saw last year and am reading about this year.  

It's not like they're a mom and pop that need the money to come in throughout the season and fund snowmaking with current operational profits.  They sell a zillion passes.  They've got all the money they need up front to go for it.  Just do it like the competition is.


----------



## catskillman (Feb 13, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Today lifts down at Hunter.  Check out the lines in the video posted by Hi Hey on the Facebook "Hunter Ski Bums" page.  And people are still coming in on the live web cam and many leaving just as fast.  Lines are down significantly now as people leave..  Wonder if the north and west lifts are running, if not there are going to be a lot of angry people who have no way back to their car.


now today, sunday, north side left down.  Scheeching,


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 14, 2022)

MogulMonsters said:


> The turkey chili (idk $$)  was REALLY good at one of the DV lodges too.



$12 last I had it, which was 2019, and worth every penny.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 14, 2022)

catskillman said:


> *who did the due deligence on these resorts. * They should have reviewed not only the age of everything, maintenance records, life of the asset left after depreciation left on the books, not to mention a physical and active inspection of all lifts, stability of all lift towers and all infastructure, I can go on and on.



Vail isn't buying "resorts", Vail's buying geographical population.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Amazing how *he cut Epic prices, boosted revenues, and then resigned. * Looks like pump and  dump.



All part of the typical boom & bust process that roll-up companies like Vail go through some years before it all comes crashing down.  The guilty CEO flees with the accolades of success for his next venture, whicle the successor(s) take the blame.


----------



## danimals (Feb 14, 2022)

This makes it seem like it was always a shoestring operation.


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 14, 2022)




----------



## jaytrem (Feb 14, 2022)

danimals said:


> This makes it seem like it was always a shoestring operation.


Curious, any of those guys still there?


----------



## ScottySkis (Feb 14, 2022)

Better pay iffered from Aspen









						Aspen Skiing Co. Announces Surprise $3/hr Raise For All Employees
					

Aspen Skiing Co. announced a $3/hr raise for all hourly and salary staff beginning Sunday, February 13th. The raise represents a $12 million dollar investment, and with the combination of the Novem…




					unofficialnetworks.com
				



I spelled wrong on purpose because that How I been known forever
Fyi now we can edit subject thread title and what in the thread I been editing subwxts like platty thread..i believe it changed when Nick I update the ski forum last year


----------



## RichT (Feb 14, 2022)

catskillman said:


> now today, sunday, north side left down.  Scheeching,


Today, Monday they had West and North closed because they closed the Belt for snowmaking! Big corporation doesn't want anybody skiing trails when make snow? Afraid of lawsuits if someone gets hurt?


----------



## catskillman (Feb 14, 2022)

RichT said:


> Today, Monday they had West and North closed because they closed the Belt for snowmaking! Big corporation doesn't want anybody skiing trails when make snow? Afraid of lawsuits if someone gets hurt?


they had no choice - the belt was a total sheet of ice and very dangerous !  has been for a while especially below the lift.  they might get it sooner or later, that this is the east....  It was so cold today, there were very few people to complain I guess.  But there was a PSIA Level 3 exam today.  Boy did those people luck out.  There was no DD terrain open except racers to ski, which makes it tough to assess skill levels....I bet everyone passed...

AND - they did not even open the 6 pack until 9:30 today........


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## IceEidolon (Feb 14, 2022)

Isn't Belt HKDs now, they took down the old Highlands? Did they go full auto Klik, manual hydrant, little line flood segments? I haven't been there in a good while. As I recall the top section used to be line flood HKDs, which are pretty easy to run as long as you have two guys and two radios.


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## kendo (Feb 16, 2022)

Wall Street analysts recommending Vail straighten out its operating issues before acquiring more resorts. . . 


 









						Wall Street analysts expect Vail Resorts to raise wages
					

A common theme has been pointed out among several analysts covering Vail Resorts stock: The company’s workers are likely to be paid more next season.




					www.vaildaily.com


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## doublediamond (Feb 16, 2022)

Repeat after me.

Lower. Pass. Prices. Does. Not. Make. Skiing. “Inclusive.”

It’s not inclusive as it is not growing the sport.

You wake up on a winter morning and you or your family decides to learn to ski. What do you do? You go to the mountain, get rentals, and a lesson. You get a$$ raped by Vail at that point. All day-of on-mountain prices are beyond astronomical. A newcomer to the sport doesn’t know to book ahead for cheaper tickets. They missed the pass sale window. They wouldn’t even buy one anyways not knowing if they like the sport. They don’t know about off-mountain equipment rentals. And they certainly don’t know how to ski or if they try without a lesson they might fail and get seriously hurt. All Vail has done is turn those newcomers away from the sport … possibly for good. Over 50% of first-time skiers don’t come back. And that’s before considering this recent nonsense by Vail.

All these lower pass prices do is entice the few-time-a-year holiday warriors to move over to a pass and maybe come a couple more times to break even or to get a couple ”free” days in, or to entice some people over from competitor mountains. Ergo massive crowding issues. All for a few more incoming bucks to bump up TODAY’s stock value with no regards to FUTURE success of the company.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> Repeat after me.
> 
> Lower. Pass. Prices. Does. Not. Make. Skiing. “Inclusive.”
> 
> It’s not inclusive as it is not growing the sport.


That is Alterra's marketing for IKON.


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## trackbiker (Feb 16, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> Repeat after me.
> 
> Lower. Pass. Prices. Does. Not. Make. Skiing. “Inclusive.”
> 
> ...


I agree. I don't know why the annalists don't mention that Vail is killing off new comers to the sport and future business. The other way people get introduced is through school and other youth group trips which Vail has also put the kabosh on while baby boomers are aging out. Nobody mentions that. I guess it didn't show up in their algorithms.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I agree. I don't know why the annalists don't mention that Vail is killing off new comers to the sport and future business. The other way people get introduced is through school and other youth group trips which Vail has also put the kabosh on while baby boomers are aging out. Nobody mentions that. I guess it didn't show up in their algorithms.


Because the interest is only on the short term.  That is it.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2022)

Vail's Handling of State-Owned Mount Sunapee Stirs Lots of Complaints - InDepthNH.org
					

Gov. Chris Sununu said his administration is working with Vail Corporation to produce a better customer experience at state-owned Mount Sunapee.




					indepthnh.org


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## RISkier (Feb 17, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I agree. I don't know why the annalists don't mention that Vail is killing off new comers to the sport and future business. The other way people get introduced is through school and other youth group trips which Vail has also put the kabosh on while baby boomers are aging out. Nobody mentions that. I guess it didn't show up in their algorithms.



Generalizing a bit here but the industry really isn't doing anything to attract new skiers. I started skiing just before my 50th birthday. I was heavily lobbied to give it a go. We found a 3-day package at Gunstock that included rentals, lessons, and lift tickets. If I recall correctly it was $109. At any rate, it wasn't too painful financially to take a flyer. First day was not that fun. You get rental boots that don't fit that well. Walking in the boots is a foreign experience. Going downstairs to the bathroom? I'm sure it's less daunting for kids who don't have years of preconceived ideas to fight through. I'd have happily never returned for a 2nd day. I heard some folks who work in the industry (a level III instructor) say that only about 15% of persons who take a beginner lesson ever return. But, I promised to give it a 3-day go. 2nd day was much better and we skied almost every weekend the rest of the year. I don't know what a 1 day beginner lesson package costs at a Vail resort these days. I think a 2-hour afternoon 1st day lesson at Stowe is $199 (less if you have an Epic Pass) and I don't think that includes rentals and I didn't see anything indicating it included lift tickets. It's a tough sell to get folks to give it a go, and the corporate ski industry doesn't seem interested in attracting new skiers.


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## Edd (Feb 17, 2022)

Sometimes a person I know who is middle aged will say something like, "I've never tried skiing, maybe I'll give it a shot". I've got no good sales pitch for taking up skiing.  There's nothing easy, convenient, or cheap about it, and it's incredibly time-consuming.  So when people start talking like they'll try it I'm not very encouraging.


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## thebigo (Feb 17, 2022)

We have neighbors down the road, two school aged kids who had never skied before this year. Parents skied as kids but gave it up for a number of years as many parents do, they bought epic passes this year due to the price. Was talking to them a few weeks back and the kids were all excited they skied a black diamond at crotched. They ski weekdays and have no idea that anything is wrong. Parents have booked a Colorado trip. Left the conversation thinking the epic pass is intended for these people. Despite the disaster that was my family's one season on epic, it is definitely a positive if it gets even one of those kids hooked on skiing.


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## Kingslug20 (Feb 17, 2022)

I started at 30. First skis were old hart billy kids...not good...once i got decent boots and skis, i spent a season at mountain creek falling on ice. But..once we started going to Belleayre it got better. Yes..its a schlepp and i imagine if you dont like cold it wont appeal.
But if you like the outdoors and speed and are a little daring...its a pretty cool hobby.
I always encourage people that want to try it.
Changed my life.


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## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> There's nothing easy, convenient, or cheap about it, and it's incredibly time-consuming.


It's only time-consuming if you don't live near a ski hill. So I admire people who don't live in the snowbelt becoming a skier. 

I learnt to ski when I was living in an area that has 6 months winter. So the snow is going to be there whether I like it or not. Might as well enjoy it. Different story if I had to drive 5 hrs to ski! I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bothered.

For those who do live near ski hills though, it's just finding the money to do the skiing part. No travel expense involved. Thankfully, there're still such packages in many of the feeder hills. I managed it even as a college kid working part time on campus. 

That said, of the people I went with for our beginner package, I am the only one who ended up skiing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> For those who do live near ski hills though, it's just finding the money to do the skiing part. No travel expense involved.



This is exactly what Vail is missing, especially for the "feeder hills" they acquired.  There were many affordable options to enter into skiing in south central PA prior to Vail.  You could get a night pass with lift, lesson, and rentals for $300 that was good from 1/1 until march when they closed.  Now your first time is going to cost you probably $200 if you want a lift, lesson, and rentals.  If you want to go multiple times you have to buy a $500+ epic Northeast pass and you are on your own for lessons and rentals each time.  Sure the old pass was likely under priced, but its cold a loss leader...   

normal income people don't learn to ski by deciding to go to Vail for the week and spend thousands of dollars.   They go to these local areas that are/were reputable for their learn to ski programs and then as they get hooked on it, they "graduate" into a season pass product.   They are completely missing the boat with this crowd and don't care because their metric of success is how many epic passes they've sold.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 17, 2022)

I think the best thing Vail can do help grow the sport is do a better job of advertising Epic Day passes.  Isn't Stowe only like $67 a day with an Epic Day Pass?

What is the cost for feeder hill Epic Day Passes?  Would it move the needle if it were say $45?


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> It's only time-consuming if you are part of the majority of skiing public.



FIFY


----------



## cdskier (Feb 17, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the best thing Vail can do help grow the sport is do a better job of advertising Epic Day passes.  Isn't Stowe only like $67 a day with an Epic Day Pass?
> 
> What is the cost for feeder hill Epic Day Passes?  Would it move the needle if it were say $45?



Yes, it is ~$67. But it still requires you to plan in advanced and buy the day pass before they stop selling them. $67 is the lowest price point for the epic day pass (that's a restricted version not valid at all resorts and not valid on holidays). They should have an even lower tier for the feeder hills. $67 to Stowe is not bad at all. $67 to ski an area in the Poconos or southern PA sucks though relatively speaking.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

not sure at this point.  I know a buddy pass for my son was $57 1/8.  Walk up is stupid, $79  at Roundtop. That price is static.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> It's only time-consuming if you are part of the majority of skiing public.


Clearly you consider your flat land home base as the "*majority* of skiing public"?


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> Clearly you consider your flat land home base as the "*majority* of skiing public"?


What percentage of revenue is locals vs flatlanders?  I always assumed it was all about weekends and holidays.

Is there data to the contrary?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 17, 2022)

Lot of locals at Stowe and SB..
I'm one of them now...


----------



## RISkier (Feb 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> Sometimes a person I know who is middle aged will say something like, "I've never tried skiing, maybe I'll give it a shot". I've got no good sales pitch for taking up skiing.  There's nothing easy, convenient, or cheap about it, and it's incredibly time-consuming.  So when people start talking like they'll try it I'm not very encouraging.


Well, it's been a great adventure but initially there are both physical and psychological barriers. I recall that about our 4th or 5th day we were getting ready and the boots went on a lot faster, walking in them became much easier, we'd learned how to carry skis, poles, etc. The views of the lakes from Gunstock or Sunapee are very rewarding. I think we also kind of lucked out. We went to Stowe and at the time they had a vacation rewards program. Buy a 3+ day ticket and you could choose a bonus, one of which was a group lesson. We got a PSIA level III the first day, and the 2nd day, and the 3rd day. At the end of the 3rd day he said he was stopping at Horn and we should join him if we liked. We became friends and ended up doing a couple of Utah trips with him and some other folks from Stowe. We've done 3 ski trips to Austria, several trips to Utah, a couple of trips to CO. It's really made winter something to look forward to rather than dread. At this point I'll never become a great skier, I have some pretty significant back issues that aren't going away. But I comfortably ski stuff I would never have thought I would when we started. My wife is even a certified level I instructor. She is really into skiing. So I'd say it's very rewarding if you get past the initial hump, and I think a single 2 hour lesson just isn't enough for most folks like me when I started. I'd love to see places offering affordable multi-day packages and really try to help folks get past that first day or two.


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## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> What percentage of revenue is locals vs flatlanders?


I'm not "local" to a big hill. But I'm "local" to a feeder in the low land. And the Cats are reasonably day-trip-able.

Had I be interested in "trying" skiing, I have options without involving much travel. 



> I always assumed it was all about weekends and holidays.


It's all about weekends and holidays alright. But that doesn't equate travel.  

Where I live is also densely populated. So I see myself a lot more representative of "majority of ski public" than Brooklynites or Long Islanders.


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## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

OK so in your mind there are locals, nearby flatlanders and far off flatlanders.

What's the cutoff?


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Lot of locals at Stowe and SB..
> I'm one of them now...


Well you will never be a local in local eyes. You are a transplant.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> OK so in your mind there are locals, nearby flatlanders and far off flatlanders.
> 
> What's the cutoff?


Cutoff for what?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 17, 2022)

Ill take transplant...


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> Cutoff for what?


the cutoff for distance being local, nearby flatlander and far off flatlander from a ski mountain


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Well you will never be a local in local eyes. You are a transplant.


which is funny because most of the "locals" are transplants...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

kendo said:


> Wall Street analysts recommending Vail straighten out its operating issues before acquiring more resorts. . .



That's a problem.  If you stop the M&A you lose the ability to juice earnings with revenue from bolt-on acquisitions simultaneous to synergistic cost cuts.  Not to mention, without perma-M&A to cloud the view, analysts would get a clearer & more accurate view of same store & YoY comps.   Nah, cant stop wont stop (until you have to stop).


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I don't know why the annalists don't mention that Vail is killing off new comers to the sport and future business.



Because Wall Street analysts aren't putting out 10 year business models, they're putting out 1 year price targets.  

But I agree with the assessment that Vail/Alterra are killing the future of skiing by decreasing the likelihood of new skiers, and I've believed that since day 1, but I've also thought that this will take a LONG time for people to visualize in the data, because all you're seeing now is massive pass sales, but not generally from beginner skiers.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> Sometimes a person I know who is middle aged will say something like, "I've never tried skiing, maybe I'll give it a shot". I've got no good sales pitch for taking up skiing.  There's nothing easy, convenient, or cheap about it, and it's incredibly time-consuming.  So *when people start talking like they'll try it I'm not very encouraging.*



I'm the exact opposite, I practically grab their arm & drag them to the mountain.  I'll bring it up the next time I see them that they mentioned it.  I basically turn into a Ski Jehovah.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 17, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Lot of locals at Stowe and SB..
> I'm one of them now...


I'd still say there's nowhere near enough locals to actually make the mountains profitable though...they need the weekend crowds.


----------



## Boxtop Willie (Feb 17, 2022)

In Vermont the difference between local and flatlander/transplant is measured in generations.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Lot of locals at Stowe and SB..


Not a lot of revenue from locals at Stowe and SB percentage-wise, despite what Stowe and SB locals surely believe.


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Well you will never be a local in local eyes. You are a transplant.


What do the Native Americans think?


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> the cutoff for distance being local, nearby flatlander and far off flatlander from a ski mountain


This is what I was trying to say.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> which is funny because most of the "locals" are transplants...


Only locals in their minds.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> the cutoff for distance being local, nearby flatlander and far off flatlander from a ski mountain


The difference between local and "far off" flatlanders are pretty easy to tell. If you need to pay lodging to ski even a single day, you're FAR OFF!

Most "locals" are within an hour of their "home mountain" (or home mountainS).

The nearby flatlander are anything in between those two, which is a more fuzzy definition. And you maybe a local to the bump you go to after work. But a far off flatlander to Stowe or Sugarloaf.

I think if you don't have a mountain, however small, within an hour of your main or secondary home, you're a far off flatlander. That's when it become "time consuming and costly" to learn to ski, and then practice with any kind of regularity. 

That's also when I question if they are "majority of skiing public".


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

Boxtop Willie said:


> In Vermont the difference between local and flatlander/transplant is measured in generations.



After living in Vermont for 6 years I realized I wouldn't be a local if I lived there for 36 years.  So I married a Vermont girl and stole her away.


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## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> What do the Native Americans think?


Their relatives transplanted from somewhere as well. 
Locals have to have grownup in the area. I have lived in the same town for over 20 years but I am not a local. My kids who grew up here are locals.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Their relatives transplanted from somewhere as well.



Now I get why I see all those, _Go Back To The Bering Strait_ signs when I'm up there.


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## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> Most "locals" are within an hour of their "home mountain" (or home mountainS).



I can see Gore from the front porch of our camp. No second homes allowed or....?

At Gore, no way locals would consider people from Saratoga Springs, or Glens Falls locals. That's 50 miles.

We're going to build something (beyond our camp) within a few miles of Gore in 2-3 years.  I don't care less if I become a local before I die.  After 30 years of skiing there, we've certainly got friends who will welcome us.

Hell I've live in the same town in NJ since 1988 and I'm not considered local here. Whatev.

Your construct seems like a bit of BS to fit your narrative. If you ski 100 days, I recant all.


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Their relatives transplanted from somewhere as well.
> Locals have to have grownup in the area. I have lived in the same town for over 20 years but I am not a local. My kids who grew up here are locals.


I like this definition, but I find that places I ski don't stick to that.


----------



## trackbiker (Feb 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because Wall Street analysts aren't putting out 10 year business models, they're putting out 1 year price targets.


I get that. I don't think that was Katz's original plan but now that he has turned over the CEO position to Kirsten Algorithm I think it's going to be Pump & Dump and he'll walk away with $millions leaving others holding the bag and taking the blame. But it doesn't doesn't bode well for the future of skiing never mind Vail Resorts.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I don't think that was Katz's original plan but now that he has turned over the CEO position to Kirsten Algorithm I think* it's going to be Pump & Dump and he'll walk away with $millions leaving others holding the bag and taking the blame.*



The bolded above was Katz's original plan.

He worked at a hedge fund for about 15 years prior to Vail, he knew exactly what he was doing.


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> At Gore, no way locals would consider people from Saratoga Springs, or Glens Falls locals. That's 50 miles.


Whether the "true locals" consider others as local or not is irrelevant. They ARE from the skiing perspective. They roll out of bed and go skiing when they feel like it. They look out their window to see if it's pissing hot rain and go back to sleep. 

A flatlander had to make lodging reservation and drive up hoping the mountain isn't a skating ring. Or they lose their hotel money. 

Epic pass is making skiing itself "affordable". But for the flatlanders, the lift ticket isn't the only expense. Once the flatlanders figured out the cost of the "free skiing days", they may not renew.


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 17, 2022)

I can’t speak to other areas but in the MWV hotel rooms and rental units outnumber local dwellings 2 to 1. Add 2nd homes and you’re talking 3 to 1 ratio. Lots of us flatlanders at those mountains.


----------



## trackbiker (Feb 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> He worked at a hedge fund for about 15 years prior to Vail, he knew exactly what he was doing.


Didn't realize that. I thought he came up through the ski resort business. Yep. Makes perfect sense that was the plan all along. And why they don't pay competitive wages, make snow, or run lifts. They make a lot of noise over new lifts. But then new lifts are assets you can leverage. Snowmaking and wages are just expenses that hurt the bottom line.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

yep Katz is a faker,  he probably doesn't ski on power days, and when he does ski its in jeans and a starter jacket.  Cowboys starter jacket no less...


----------



## trackbiker (Feb 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yep Katz is a faker,  he probably doesn't ski on power days, and when he does ski its in jeans and a starter jacket.  Cowboys starter jacket no less...


No. I don't think he's a Starter Jacket guy. More like the guy with the most expensive gear who never hits the the slopes. Hangs out in the lodge and the bar and talks a good story but couldn't make it down the bunny slope.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

that's how he is now, but I bet he skied in a Cowboys Jacket back in the day while slide slipping down steep slopes


----------



## IceEidolon (Feb 17, 2022)

Skiing local and community local are two very different words that happen to be spelled the same. If you're riding a mountain after work, you're local to that mountain. IMO if you're within about an hour drive, you're a local skier - but less so if you drive past other mountains on the way up.

Flatlanders IMO are coming from more than an hour away AND aren't driving past another option to get to their preferred hill - that is to say if you're local to another mountain, you aren't a flatlander even if you aren't skiing at your usual hill.

Super Flatlanders live far enough away from a mountain that they can't easily day trip it - so somewhere above two and a half hours each way.  They're in an area where the "ski culture" such as it is and what there is of it, is youth group trips or flying/driving for one weekend or holiday a year, and most people aren't part of the ski culture.

Whereas local/transplant varies but locals usually have a longer timeframe in mind than the transplants do.

Edit - second homes and vacation homes - if your tax forms aren't kept there, it's  not enough to count as 'local'. Add your drive time from your primary residence. Same deal for nomads, van lifers, and long term rentals.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that's how he is now, but I bet he skied in a Cowboys Jacket back in the day while slide slipping down steep slopes


He did ski Hunter growing up...so it is certainly plausible.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 17, 2022)

so even worse, he knows how awesome hunter CAN be...  What a dick...


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> A flatlander had to make lodging reservation and drive up hoping the mountain isn't a skating ring. Or they lose their hotel money.


So if I have a place, I'm local?

We built this place to avoid all that.









						Headquarters in the Adirondacks
					

The cabin is NYSkiBlog headquarters. It's our Adirondack base camp for the stoke, trip reports and photos we crank out each ski season.




					nyskiblog.com
				




The whole idea seems forced.

How about if you drive on a interstate to ski there, you're not local?


----------



## mbedle (Feb 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not a lot of revenue from locals at Stowe and SB percentage-wise, despite what Stowe and SB locals surely believe.


Thats an understatement.... lol


----------



## abc (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> So if I have a place, I'm local?


Yes! 

See post by IceEidolon


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

I don't think any of my friends at Gore would consider me a local yet.


----------



## x10003q (Feb 17, 2022)

Harvey said:


> I don't think any of my friends at Gore would consider me a local yet.


Maybe they are not your friends.........


----------



## Harvey (Feb 17, 2022)

x10003q said:


> Maybe they are not your friends.........


I don't consider myself a local either so


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 17, 2022)

abc said:


> Yes!
> 
> See post by IceEidolon


Nope!


----------



## skiur (Feb 18, 2022)

I have a place by K but I'm not a local.  To be a local your primary residence had to be near a mountain, vacation homes don't count.


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 18, 2022)

skiur said:


> I have a place by K but I'm not a local.  To be a local your primary residence had to be near a mountain, vacation homes don't count.


Thats the number one response to trigger condo owners


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 18, 2022)

Both Wildcat & Attitash are closed today.
Pissed rain hard last night in the MWV. 
 Now it is just crossing the freezing mark here in Conway.
Supposed to make it down to 5-6 degrees tonight.
 Gonna need some serious grooming tomorrow.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 18, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Both Wildcat & Attitash are closed today.
> Pissed rain hard last night in the MWV.
> Now it is just crossing the freezing mark here in Conway.
> Supposed to make it down to 5-6 degrees tonight.
> Gonna need some serious grooming tomorrow.


Wildcat will probably be down to a few runs after all this.

All the other resorts from what I've seen they are stockpiling snow so they should hold up better at say attitash. Either way it's gonna be a busy weekend at the hospital


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 18, 2022)

I skied Cranmore on Tuesday and their base on frontside trails is 2x-5x better than what Wildcat and Attitash have. 

That said, Wildcat cam looks way better than I imagined. Will be there tomorrow and expect to see a few ambulances.


----------



## IceEidolon (Feb 18, 2022)

Addendum - your drive to your vacation home counts towards the time limit in my last post. I'll edit that to reflect this. I expect most people live more than an hour away from a mountain they own a second house at.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 18, 2022)

14 minutes...


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 18, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 14 minutes...


Not a bad trip for a flatlander


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 18, 2022)

But...we rent it out all the time now..so im 50 minutes to either stowe or SB most times..


----------



## drjeff (Feb 18, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Addendum - your drive to your vacation home counts towards the time limit in my last post. I'll edit that to reflect this. I expect most people live more than an hour away from a mountain they own a second house at.



CT house to VT condo - 2hrs and 35 minutes... VT condo to Mount Snow base lodge - 3 minutes. Will be 15yrs in May since my wife and I bought our place, with 3yrs of Winter seasonal rentals prior....

Know tons of locals. Great friends with tons of locals. Don't consider myself a local. Nor do I really consider myself a local in my home CT town even though my wife and I have lived there for most 21yrs, but neither of us grew up remotely close to the town we live in


----------



## abc (Feb 18, 2022)

You can only be a true local if your parents made the right choice... be proud


----------



## TyWebb (Feb 19, 2022)

Is It Time for Local Governments to Set Ski Area Capacity Limits? As mountain-town infrastructure reaches its limits, something has to give


----------



## gittist (Feb 19, 2022)

TyWebb said:


> Is It Time for Local Governments to Set Ski Area Capacity Limits? As mountain-town infrastructure reaches its limits, something has to give


I doubt that you want any government entity doing that. What's more likely to happen is that the situation will sort itself out.  How many people that waited in the long line to find out there's no parking left, or those who found parking but only got a few runs in all day (assuming they were there to ski and not drink) will come back next year?

Even if all of them buy passes for next year why blame Vail? Those people will be subsidizing the passes for those of us that ski Monday through Thursday, and maybe Friday. I like my cheap EPIC pass.

Before I retired I didn't ski at all if I couldn't take a day off from work to ski on a weekday.  Of course now everything except for the lifts goes up faster than my social insecurity check :-(.

Feel free to Vail-bash the busted lifts, chairs falling off, no snow making, no snow grooming, not enough help...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 19, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> * I expect most people live more than an hour away from a mountain they own a second house at.*



Really?   That seems to defeat much of the purpose IMO.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 19, 2022)

gittist said:


> Feel free to Vail-bash the busted lifts, chairs falling off, no snow making, no snow grooming, not enough help...



But other than that how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 19, 2022)

gittist said:


> I doubt that you want any government entity doing that. What's more likely to happen is that the situation will sort itself out.  How many people that waited in the long line to find out there's no parking left, or those who found parking but only got a few runs in all day (assuming they were there to ski and not drink) will come back next year?
> 
> Even if all of them buy passes for next year why blame Vail? Those people will be subsidizing the passes for those of us that ski Monday through Thursday, and maybe Friday. I like my cheap EPIC pass.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget some of the Fail resorts are not even open some weekdays


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 20, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Really?   That seems to defeat much of the purpose IMO.


There is no point having a second house if it takes you more than an hour to drive to it? I don't own a second house, but if I did the point would be to be able to have a place I could spend the night that was further away than a place I would want to regularly day trip to.


----------



## tumbler (Feb 20, 2022)

First rule- you can’t be a local with out of state plates. Live there full time and get green plates then the conversation can MAYBE begin.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 20, 2022)

Now that we have the mail problem sorted out..for now, we can start thst process.
As far as having a second housr 1 hour away from your main house..that is exactly what we have.  When its not rented its a big difference to wake up and have a 12 minute drive to stowe instead of an hour.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Now that we have the mail problem sorted out..for now, we can start thst process.
> As far as having a second housr 1 hour away from your main house..that is exactly what we have.  When its not rented its a big difference to wake up and have a 12 minute drive to stowe instead of an hour.


For myself I can't see having a 35 minute drive to Shawnee in the Poconos instead of 90 making much of a difference, and nor would being 5:35 instead of 6:30 hrs from Jay - which are the nearest and furthest places I have driven to this winter.

If I were to get a second home for ski purposes, it would likely be somewhere in the Catskills fairly accessable to NYS Thruway that would be about 2 hrs away from my home and would put me 30-60 minutes from 4 Catskill ski areas and within day trip distance of about a dozen appealing ski areas in Adirondaks and New England


----------



## RichT (Feb 20, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> For myself I can't see having a 35 minute drive to Shawnee in the Poconos instead of 90 making much of a difference, and nor would being 5:35 instead of 6:30 hrs from Jay - which are the nearest and furthest places I have driven to this winter.
> 
> If I were to get a second home for ski purposes, it would likely be somewhere in the Catskills fairly accessable to NYS Thruway that would be about 2 hrs away from my home and would put me 30-60 minutes from 4 Catskill ski areas and within day trip distance of about a dozen appealing ski areas in Adirondaks and New England


That's exactly what we did! 32yrs ago. Now retired and we live up here Thanksgiving to Easter.  Being Local or not I don't care.


----------



## skiur (Feb 20, 2022)

My second home is 275 miles from my primary home which is about a 4.5 hour ride.  If my primary house was only an hour from the mountain I wouldn't have a second home.


----------



## Harvey (Feb 20, 2022)

skiur said:


> My second home is 275 miles from my primary home which is about a 4.5 hour ride.  If my primary house was only an hour from the mountain I wouldn't have a second home.


Mine too. If you can call it a house.

FWIW the second home market SHOULD be important to Vail.  All those people "forced" to ski Epic.


----------



## IceEidolon (Feb 20, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Really?   That seems to defeat much of the purpose IMO.


They would buy a second home, which they don't live at, which is closer to a resort so they can have a short drive while they'at the second house.

If your drive to your nearest resort is an hour or more from your first house, whether or not you base out of a close rental, you're part of the demographic that is willing to make a significant commitment to go ski - and not a local.


----------



## machski (Feb 21, 2022)

All these local/non local comparisons are just crap.  Just ski, of you can rip the terrain at your resort, many committed skier's/riders won't give 2 cents how you got there.  My experience anyhow.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 21, 2022)

Yup


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## IceEidolon (Feb 21, 2022)

It's useful to me mostly in context of target markets and relative positioning - who's Epic going after versus Indy, for example.


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## Apple Country (Feb 21, 2022)

We were doing the kids lesson shuffle at Stowe the last few days. Couldn't have been better staffed between parking folks, people pointing you in right direction, etc. If you were wondering where all NH vail staff is, I found them.....


----------



## eatskisleep (Feb 21, 2022)

Local Restaurant Dunks on Vail's Crowds in Hilarious Ad
					

Crowds from the overselling of Epic Passes have led to a lot of frustration for pass holders at many Vail properties, including at Mount Sunapee in Newbury, New Hampshire. Some local businesses hav…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 21, 2022)

Stowe is turning out to be the least..fucked Vail resort.....good!


----------



## pinion247 (Feb 22, 2022)

I spent 2 days at Cranmore (last Tues pre-thaw and then yesterday post-thaw) and man that ops crew has done some spectacular work. Decent base down the whole front side of the hill and even the north side and backside trails were skiable end of day President’s Day. Plus all lifts running. Really puts Attitash and Wildcat to shame currently. Vail sucks.


----------



## jaytrem (Feb 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe is turning out to be the least..fucked Vail resort.....good!


Mount Snow seems to be running more lifts more often than Peak did.  So I'm pretty happy about that.  Snowmaking not bad, though I'd say Peak was more aggressive early in the year.  Paid parking thing is annoying, but the free parking at the bottom of the covered bridge isn't terrible.

I feel for the NH people though.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 22, 2022)

They should form a class action suite against them...


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Feb 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> They should form a class action suite against them...


I hear the Class Action Suite is very nice at the Arrabelle at Vail.


----------



## skimagic (Feb 22, 2022)

latest stock news. 








						Vail Resorts Stock Continues To Fall Amidst Widespread Criticism of Operations
					

I’m not going to pretend like I know jack-shit about the stock market, but I do know one thing- a company isn’t doing something right if their stock is dropping in price. Vail Resorts i…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## ss20 (Feb 22, 2022)

Finally hit a new 52wk low!


----------



## Vince (Feb 22, 2022)

At the same price they won't sell as many passes, and they can't raise the price


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Finally hit a new 52wk low!


It's called "the AlpineZone effect."


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 22, 2022)

Good..fucking parasites!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Good..fucking parasites!


So I talked to a couple folks up here today that work at Big Sky.  The first guy moved out from Cape Cod this past fall.  He is the retail clerk at Moonlight Basin.  Nice guy.  He told me that he commutes from Bozeman--one hour each way.  But he really likes it here.  "I am just glad this isn't owned by Vail--all I hear is how bad Vail is to employees."  

We had a pass issue at Swifty Six.  The gate attendant and I talked for a few minutes while we waited for them to fix my wife's pass.  The guy is a second year employee.  I asked how he liked it and he smiled and said he loved the mountain and that Boyne treated him well.  "We all hear about Vail and its issues."  His pay to man the RFID gates?  $17.00 per hour.  Granted housing in Big Sky is ridiculous but he also commutes.  Every Big Sky employee I've seen today, to a person, has been great and friendly.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 22, 2022)

Sometimes..its about how you treat your employees.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 23, 2022)

I love how crotched managed to open monday and Tuesday on mass vacation week but not nh vacation week.


----------



## 2Planker (Feb 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I love how crotched managed to open monday and Tuesday on mass vacation week but not nh vacation week.


Umm  It's Vac week for just about all of NE, except NH....
NH has always done it different.  "Live Free or Die" baby


----------



## snoseek (Feb 23, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Umm  It's Vac week for just about all of NE, except NH....
> NH has always done it different.  "Live Free or Die" baby


As a kid I loved it. I'm just thinking of the local kids that are off next week and Don't have a local area Monday and Tuesday. They make up a good part of that mtn. I feel like they should figure it out for that week


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 23, 2022)

loved when my kids were on school having vacation on a different week than Mass. skiing midweek was always great. Everything was cheaper. Even traveling out of state was great.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I love how crotched managed to open monday and Tuesday on mass vacation week but not nh vacation week.


Mass is more Epic apparently…


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Umm  It's Vac week for just about all of NE, except NH....
> NH has always done it different.  "Live Free or Die" baby


Not that it’s applicable, but my part of Vermont always did the vaca a week later due to Town Meeting day.


----------



## Mainer (Feb 23, 2022)

Mwv schools are the only ones in nh to have the same presidents week off as mass. Something to do with School kids working the resorts that week.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Mwv schools are the only ones in nh to have the same presidents week off as mass. Something to do with School kids working the resorts that week.



Not true. Others outside of the MWV are off too.  It's pretty random.  Durham is off this week.  Most other surrounding towns in our area are off next week.


----------



## machski (Feb 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Not that it’s applicable, but my part of Vermont always did the vaca a week later due to Town Meeting day.


Now apparently they get this week AND the first half of next week off for Town Meeting day (Tues).  At least in my bro-in-law's town of St. Albans.  Rough...


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Feb 24, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Sometimes..its about how you treat your employees.



If by "sometimes" you mean "most of the time", then hard agree.   None of the lifts move and none of the lodges open w/o people as the immediate interface.  Vail has dumped a bunch of money into the engine (lifts, lodging, infrastructure), but is running the car on bald summer tires (underpaid, overworked, under-supported employees).  If you're in the customer service business (and frankly most other businesses), skimping on employee welfare seems....short-sighted.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 24, 2022)

Hmm..what i meant..in my experience is if you dont want to treat your employees well, you better pay them a hell of a lot to put up with it. Ski resorts dont do that.


----------



## Katahdin (Feb 25, 2022)

The woes continue at Attitash. The flying bear is broken again, of course on a powder day during the holiday week. It was already down for nearly a week just a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## gittist (Feb 25, 2022)

EPIC this year....




See   https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/02/25/chelsea-handler-skiing-naked-birthday/ for Epic next year.   Sorry ladies, nothing for you..yet


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 25, 2022)

So..ive been at Sun Valley all week and while they do take the epic pass..they are not owned by vail. But this would be apparent if you came here. Blowing snow all week..lots of ambassadors all over the place..no big lines. Nice place. Hope they never...ever...sell to Vail.


----------



## jaytrem (Feb 25, 2022)

Looks like they sold off most of the company but kept the ski areas.  Wasn't sure what was going to happen after Earl Holding passed away.  Guess his wife wanted to keep them.  Hopefully they don't sell out once she's gone.

Kingslug, did you make it over to Dollar for any turns?









						Sun Valley’s owner Sinclair strikes deal to sell most of its assets. SEC filing sheds light on resort’s status
					

The Sun Valley Resort’s parent company could soon be part of a new, larger, publicly-traded company.  But SEC filings note the resort and sister properties aren’t part of the deal. [ Sun Valley opens new terrain on Bald Mountain] HollyFrontier of Dallas, TX announced it would acquire Sinclair...




					boisedev.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 25, 2022)

Nope..looked a bit easy. We had to sesrch for hard stuff..but we found some. A lot of good stuff is closed and baked. 
Good trip though...snowed way more than predicted
King slug effect


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So..ive been at Sun Valley all week and while they do take the epic pass..they are not owned by vail. But this would be apparent if you came here. Blowing snow all week..lots of ambassadors all over the place..no big lines. Nice place. Hope they never...ever...sell to Vail.


As somebody else posted here, much to my surprise, the family sold the oil company but kept the hotels and ski areas. Looks like they’re going to stay in the ski and hotel business for the long run. Admittedly Earl‘s first business was a gas station and a small hotel.  The only thing that I’m still scratching my head on is why they are not opening up a Grand America or Little America at Snowbasin and instead having a Club Med hotel come in. That seems weird.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Looks like they sold off most of the company but kept the ski areas.  Wasn't sure what was going to happen after Earl Holding passed away.  Guess his wife wanted to keep them.  Hopefully they don't sell out once she's gone.
> 
> Kingslug, did you make it over to Dollar for any turns?
> 
> ...


Dollar is very small, relatively speaking.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 26, 2022)

"It's just not adding up" council tells Park City Mountain COO - TownLift, Park City News
					

PARK CITY, Utah — Park City Mountain Chief Operating Officer (COO) Mike Goar gave a mid-season update to the Park City Council on Thursday evening. Despite the resort’s challenges this […]




					townlift.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 27, 2022)

Vail...everythings fine.
Everyone else....say what?


----------



## catskillman (Feb 27, 2022)

and today F lift is only loading every other chair.  Broke down yesterday afternoon.  Any faith in that lift??  I did not get on it....


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Vail...everythings fine.
> Everyone else....say what?


Didn't you love his comment that most of his feedback has been positive?


----------



## ThatGuy (Feb 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Didn't you love his comment that most of his feedback has been positive?


If you ignore everyone but sycophants then its always positive


----------



## Edd (Feb 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Didn't you love his comment that most of his feedback has been positive?


I believe they've stated similar in NH ski area press releases.  Complete horseshit.


----------



## FBGM (Feb 27, 2022)

Going to Hunter Thursday. I can’t believe I’m paying Vail. It’s worth it to ski with my buddy and his wife as I don’t see them a ton. 

I’d bring an industry letter but not sure if Vail does anything with them? My name might also be black listed in their system….


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2022)

Edd said:


> I believe they've stated similar in NH ski area press releases.  Complete horseshit.


The only thing I can think of is this:


----------



## Kingslug20 (Feb 27, 2022)

Yup..that sums it up..


----------



## catskillman (Feb 27, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Going to Hunter Thursday. I can’t believe I’m paying Vail. It’s worth it to ski with my buddy and his wife as I don’t see them a ton.
> 
> I’d bring an industry letter but not sure if Vail does anything with them? My name might also be black listed in their system….


i would not count on getting anything free from vail....

But, hopefully mid week you should not have terrible crowds, but you never know what trails and lifts will be running.

This mornings ski report had Lower K open and groomed.  There has not been snow on it all season!!  And the non existant terrain park on drop off has not been there for years, but it has been open on the website for a while.  Drop off noted as a terrain park honestly is not an issue, as long as the trail is open it helps...


----------



## RichT (Feb 27, 2022)

I heard that someone fell off a lift at Hunter today?


----------



## catskillman (Feb 28, 2022)

RichT said:


> I heard that someone fell off a lift at Hunter today?


yes, unfortunatly.  C lift at Hunter 1.   Hurt quite bad I understand.


----------



## gittist (Mar 1, 2022)

EPIC Mix Stats: Has anyone else noticed that the EPIC Mix app stops tracking your vertical a long time before you stop skiing? Not that it means anything unless you’re competing with others to see who buys the beer at the end of the day but I noticed today that if you expand the “lift’s today” it stopped tracking me right before lunch, on another day about an hour and a half into the day...  Before anyone says anything I would rather them spend $ on snow making and lift operations than making sure EPIC mix works...


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## kendo (Mar 1, 2022)

Walmart has billboards up in PA near Vail's Jack Frost & Big Boulder resorts...

Walmart starting pay up to $28.70/hr for the local distribution center.  3-4 day week. 









						Warehouse Worker Up To $28.70 Job in Tobyhanna, PA
					

Job DescriptionJOIN THE LARGEST RETAILER IN THE WORLD AT:WALMART DISTRIBUTION CENTER #6080 , TOBYHANNA PAAs an Associate with Walmart, you will receive competitive wages on a progressive pay scale (plus shift differentials and incentives), 3-4 days off per week, and eligibility for a variety of ...




					www.adzuna.com
				





Good luck attacking folks to work outside for Vail minimums...


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## RichT (Mar 1, 2022)

gittist said:


> EPIC Mix Stats: Has anyone else noticed that the EPIC Mix app stops tracking your vertical a long time before you stop skiing? Not that it means anything unless you’re competing with others to see who buys the beer at the end of the day but I noticed today that if you expand the “lift’s today” it stopped tracking me right before lunch, on another day about an hour and a half into the day...  Before anyone says anything I would rather them spend $ on snow making and lift operations than making sure EPIC mix works...


I deleted that junk app, I use "Ski Tracks" I like it.


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## catskillman (Mar 2, 2022)

how is it that Wildcat is only 50% open when they sent snowmakers up from CO and CA?  Is the system just not working...the trails are not covered by snowmaking that are closed?


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## pinion247 (Mar 2, 2022)

catskillman said:


> how is it that Wildcat is only 50% open when they sent snowmakers up from CO and CA?  Is the system just not working...the trails are not covered by snowmaking that are closed?


Those guys left weeks ago, so there's been no snow-making to recover from the 2x thaw/rain events since.

2022 snow-making consisted of: Middle/Lower Polecat, Cat Track, Middle Wildcat, and Bobcat. The imported snow-makers got Upper Polecat, Lynx t2b, and Upper Catapult worked out. Plus some extra on top of the previously stated trails and some bonus on Wild Kitten that didn't last. There may be some other smaller spots I am forgetting.


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## da-bum (Mar 2, 2022)

gittist said:


> EPIC Mix Stats: Has anyone else noticed that the EPIC Mix app stops tracking your vertical a long time before you stop skiing? Not that it means anything unless you’re competing with others to see who buys the beer at the end of the day but I noticed today that if you expand the “lift’s today” it stopped tracking me right before lunch, on another day about an hour and a half into the day...  Before anyone says anything I would rather them spend $ on snow making and lift operations than making sure EPIC mix works...


They have 2 way of tracking.

First way is via the RFID reader at the gantry right before entrance to the lifts.  That records the lifts taken and calculates your vert, assuming you have to come back down instead of having to be airlifted away by a chopper.  This assumes they are functioning properly.  I've had situations where the whole thing is not operating so it missed my verts from those lifts.  Other times, it assumed I went up multiple times in the 15 minutes that I was waiting to go up the lift.

The second way is via the phone's GPS, where it also tracks distance traveled.  From what I experienced, if the app is in the background, the phone will eventually put it to sleep so it stops recording.  Either keep it in the foreground or disable battery saver mode for that app.  I once had it in the foreground and at the end of the day, I realized it sucked down 500MB of data.  So you probably have to disable background data for the app.

I use the app as a redundancy to Strava and Ski Tracks.  I also use it to check ski trails, lift line wait time (not really accurate), make reservations to cafeterias, so there is some use to it.


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## drjeff (Mar 3, 2022)

Nice morning at Attitash today. The 1" predicted for overnight turned into 3" with on/off light snow all morning. Variable winds on the top roughly 1/4 of both peaks that had some exposed areas a bit blown off, put overall a bunch of powder and packed powder. Summit triple and both quads at Bear running, the Yankee is still down for replacement of a hydraulic tensioner in the Summit terminal.

Hadn't skied Attitash in about 20yrs, forgot how much fun the terrain off the Summit Triple is, even with the SLOW ride to the top (I've done that 5 times thus far prior to meeting my daughter who's racing at Bear Peak the next few days, for lunch after her morning training session).

Such a shame to see some of the lack of effort Vail has put into this place this season.

Lifts have been no more than a 5 chair wait, if not just ski on, and if it wasn't for the probably 500 or so Highschool racers, their coaches, and various members of their family who choose to ski today, even during NH vacation week, this place would be a ghost town today.

Time to go rack up another 10k or so of verts before the kid finishes her afternoon training..


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Nice morning at Attitash today. The 1" predicted for overnight turned into 3" with on/off light snow all morning. Variable winds on the top roughly 1/4 of both peaks that had some exposed areas a bit blown off, put overall a bunch of powder and packed powder. Summit triple and both quads at Bear running, the Yankee is still down for replacement of a hydraulic tensioner in the Summit terminal.
> 
> Hadn't skied Attitash in about 20yrs, forgot how much fun the terrain off the Summit Triple is, even with the SLOW ride to the top (I've done that 5 times thus far prior to meeting my daughter who's racing at Bear Peak the next few days, for lunch after her morning training session).
> 
> ...


I've been saying all along attitash is one of the most underrated areas in nh. The terrain is fun as hell and it's not a flat mountain at all.


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## 2Planker (Mar 3, 2022)

All true, but for those of us who have been AT/WC faithful, It's a HUGE fucking shame to see what Vail has done to both places.

 Every time we now go to BW, Shawnee or Black, I run in to folks that used to be "regulars" or employees at AT/WC.

Even on the chair at BW yesterday.... The conversation was all about Vail & the WC/AT mess that they have created.

 Rumor is of a possible new MWV Pass coming for 22/23


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## Teleskier (Mar 3, 2022)

Another article on the Vail effect:
Longer lines, less time skiing at Hunter: complaints about Vail Resorts snowball


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## meff (Mar 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Rumor is of a possible new MWV Pass coming for 22/23



Separate from the White Mountain Super Pass that was announced already by Cranmore and BW?


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2022)

What are they going to blame when there is no Pandemic????


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## 2Planker (Mar 3, 2022)

meff said:


> Separate from the White Mountain Super Pass that was announced already by Cranmore and BW?


   Similar to Conway's Chamber Pass, but available to everyone.
 Chamber Pass has BW, Cranmore, Shawnee, Black & King Pine, and all the XC places too.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 3, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> What are they going to blame when there is no Pandemic????


Trump


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## xlr8r (Mar 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I've been saying all along attitash is one of the most underrated areas in nh. The terrain is fun as hell and it's not a flat mountain at all.



I was at Attitash both Saturday and Sunday last weekend.  My only 2 days all season at a Vail resort as I was skiing with relatives.  I was expecting a disaster as Flying Bear was broken down to start Saturday, but the weekend ended up being great.  Terrain wise Attitash is very underrated, Bear Peak is one of my favorite pods in New England.  I spend less time on the Attitash peak side because of the painfully slow Triple, and also I find the Attitash side gets icier quicker than Bear.  They got Flying Bear Fixed around 10:30Am, and got two phenomenal runs down an ungroomed Wandering Skis.  They didn't groom Wandering Skis or Morning Star for Saturday I think because they expected the lift to be down all day.  Lower Ptarmigan and White horse was also a delightful Powder field all weekend long if you ducked the rope.  Illusion was closed for racing all weekend, and it sucks that they never made snow on Avenger this year. 

Over the weekend I did ride with a slopeside condo owner, Ski Patrol, an Ambassador, and an Instructor.  So there was a lot of lift ride talk about Vail's failings in running the place.  Some of the scuttlebutt I got were that they only have 2 groomer operators on staff, and 8 snowmakers.  All the snowmakers are now running lifts for the rest of the season.  With only 2 groomer operators, they would not be able to groom every trail, if trails like Avenger, White Horse, etc that never got snowmaking were open.  They do hope to run Kachina next year as the Ski Team wants to use Trillium for training and racing, they expect the park to stay on Moonbeam next season.  They are thinking about changing Wilfred's GAWM to a blue when the new Summit Expresss lift is installed.

I still hold out hope that Attitash can improve in the coming years.  I love it for its quirks, and like it much more than Wildcat.


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## ss20 (Mar 3, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> What are they going to blame when there is no Pandemic????



War in Ukraine.

Too much sunshine.

Limited operations on days ending in "y".


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## eatskisleep (Mar 3, 2022)

2Planker said:


> All true, but for those of us who have been AT/WC faithful, It's a HUGE fucking shame to see what Vail has done to both places.
> 
> Every time we now go to BW, Shawnee or Black, I run in to folks that used to be "regulars" or employees at AT/WC.
> 
> ...


Including Black on the WMV pass? Where can you buy the pass?


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## eatskisleep (Mar 3, 2022)

Someone just sent this to me as I am not on Facebook:


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## machski (Mar 3, 2022)

I have to say, we've been out at Vail and BC this week, and the amount of lift stops/slows for misloads is immense (at least on Vail's frontside).  After watching all week, it's not a cell phone issue at all.  It's the damn Epic Mix gantries.  Folks think that is where you are suppose to wait for next chair, but in actuality, that is at least 1-2 ski lengths ahead.  So they start out for the chair too far out, don't push out anywhere near fast enough given the extra yards, and voila, misloaded chairs.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 53467Someone just sent this to me as I am not on Facebook:


Wow, just wow.


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## drjeff (Mar 3, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> View attachment 53467Someone just sent this to me as I am not on Facebook:


Bear Peak has Illusion closed through Sunday for the Eastern Highschool Ski Championships. Or atleast it's scheduled to go through Sunday, although there is talk of moving Sunday's scheduled race to Saturday because of the likely wet weather on Sunday predicted.

And as an FYI, the racers and their coaches and family members had roughly 1/2 of the Bear parking lot filled up today, and there weren't very many other folks on the mountain from what I experienced


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## 2Planker (Mar 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Including Black on the WMV pass? Where can you buy the pass?


Conway "Chamber Pass" is available to employees of Chamber of Commerce business's 
 i think it's 5 days each at BW, Shawnee, Black, Cranmore, and King Pine. Plus all the XC places too.


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## FBGM (Mar 5, 2022)

Hunter follow up 

I just paid for a ticket. $84 at window. There was a nice 3” of snow overnight. First turns were nice. First hour was empty and nice. Snow in most spots was decent. Had the 6 pack open, quad and that triple. The back side was closed. 

Okemo ticket checkers were there. Blasting their own music un-edited. F bombs in lift line music. I don’t care but saw some people rolling their eyes. 

Lunch was basic and expensive. Pre made burger. Bar area was a joke. No seats at bar. No cash transactions. 

Short staff all over in general. Nothing new there. 

Was not busy at all. But that place on a weekend or holiday? No way. Weird trail layout. Must be a blood bath there on weekends.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 5, 2022)

Check the web cam..looks a bit busy


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Blasting their own music un-edited. F bombs in lift line music.



Tell me you're low-class without telling me that you're low-class.


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## Pez (Mar 5, 2022)

completely inappropriate.


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## FBGM (Mar 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Check the web cam..looks a bit busy


I’m sure it’s busy today. I was there Thursday. There would have to be a line of dimes each ready to fluff me at the top of the lift for me to be there on a weekend.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 5, 2022)

I did it for over 20 years..but it was better back then..you coukd hide on the west side all day.


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## FBGM (Mar 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I did it for over 20 years..but it was better back then..you coukd hide on the west side all day.


That was my first time skiing there since I was like 13 so it was kinda cool to go back. I remember all the real skiers here in Poconos would always go up and ski when I was a kid. Always talked it up back then


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I did it for over 20 years..but it was better back then..you coukd hide on the west side all day.



Has the West Side opened all year?


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## catskillman (Mar 5, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Short staff all over in general. Nothing new there.


and the foreign workers are going back this weeek, the next group on the 17th and the last group on the 31st.  that leaves about 6 people to run the lifts.....


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2022)

I was at Cannon today with my son. We rode the chair with a guy from Boston and his daughter.  Typical small talk, where you from, where do you typically ski etc.  

Guy says,

"Well, we made the dumb choice of buying an Epic Pass.  Made sense for us as my in-laws have a place in Ludlow for Okemo and we can day trip to Sunapee and Crotched pretty easy from Boston.  The experience was so bad, we've pretty much just been buying day tickets to Cannon or Gunstock since late January."

Won't even use the pass anymore.  Would rather shell out day ticket rates.  Definitely hopping ship next season.  

Very curious to see what Vail's numbers look like in the East next season.  Has it become common knowledge that they absolutely suck at operating Eastern ski resorts?


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 5, 2022)

Report shows only way out and way in open..so no..the real west is not open..what a joke...


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## eatskisleep (Mar 6, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Report shows only way out and way in open..so no..the real west is not open..what a joke...View attachment 53517


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## Edd (Mar 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Very curious to see what Vail's numbers look like in the East next season.  Has it become common knowledge that they absolutely suck at operating Eastern ski resorts?


I’d say so, based on chairlift and ski bar chats over the last couple of months.


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## RichT (Mar 6, 2022)

catskillman said:


> and the foreign workers are going back this weeek, the next group on the 17th and the last group on the 31st.  that leaves about 6 people to run the lifts.....


I'd be surprised if they are open till the 31st. Fail would love it if they could close earlier than that!


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## ctdubl07 (Mar 6, 2022)

That was a common refrain this week in PkCty....while a fairly crapping snow season, there was a decent amount of terrain open but comments from staff that a number of lesser traveled faces would be closing next week due to loss of Int. workers and lifties transitioning around. I was also surprised to see the significant number of on mtn services closed due lack of labor.


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## catskillman (Mar 6, 2022)

RichT said:


> I'd be surprised if they are open till the 31st. Fail would love it if they could close earlier than that!


that seems to be the opinion of most.  Most are fed up Vail, not just at Hunter.  I spoke to a BB employee last week on the lift, and they are making the instructers bump chairs.  

The Paying People will not forget what Vail dished out this season, and it was about as bad as they could have made it.  

Today the place is empty.  The weather is not ideal at all, which most likely is the issue.


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## pinion247 (Mar 6, 2022)

Anecdotal evidence but my social network is split almost evenly into 2 groups:

Group 1 hates Vail and cheap passes and the crowds it brings. Since I spend a lot of time in MWV you can name 100 reasons why this is the case, and almost everyone that falls into this group are MWV regulars.

Group 2 are new to skiing regularly. Mostly families with kids. Never really known anything outside of weekend/holiday crowds. Like everyone, disappointed at NH mountains but LOVING Stowe/Okemo/Snow. Some have already made a trek out West with their passes. Others are planning do so next year. 

I think Vail is betting on Group 2 being the “new normal” Epic client.


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## So Inclined (Mar 6, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Hunter follow up
> 
> I just paid for a ticket. $84 at window. There was a nice 3” of snow overnight. First turns were nice. First hour was empty and nice. Snow in most spots was decent. Had the 6 pack open, quad and that triple. The back side was closed.
> 
> ...



Those aren't Okemo ticket checkers. They're just wearing re-purposed jackets. It looks pretty confusing if not really chintzy on Vail's part, but I guess the old orange HH instructor jackets they had the scan crew in finally wore out over the last year or two. Anyway, it's been the same people wearing them all season long.
If you heard f-bombs coming from music in the lift line, I'd put money that it was coming from a customer's speaker, not from the workers. The lifties' music is almost always en espanol.


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## So Inclined (Mar 6, 2022)

catskillman said:


> that seems to be the opinion of most.  Most are fed up Vail, not just at Hunter.  I spoke to a BB employee last week on the lift, and they are making the instructers bump chairs.
> 
> The Paying People will not forget what Vail dished out this season, and it was about as bad as they could have made it.
> 
> Today the place is empty.  The weather is not ideal at all, which most likely is the issue.


I'd call today a pretty great spring skiing day weather-wise (and compounded by the fact that the mountain was almost eerily empty.) But you don't get more than a couple of those days without losing a lot of terrain if you're not sitting on a ton of base that's been banked. Which..well,   If the next 24 hours brings a great big pissing rainstorm as forecast, things are going to bleed out quick.


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## FBGM (Mar 7, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> Those aren't Okemo ticket checkers. They're just wearing re-purposed jackets. It looks pretty confusing if not really chintzy on Vail's part, but I guess the old orange HH instructor jackets they had the scan crew in finally wore out over the last year or two. Anyway, it's been the same people wearing them all season long.
> If you heard f-bombs coming from music in the lift line, I'd put money that it was coming from a customer's speaker, not from the workers. The lifties' music is almost always en espanol.


Nah the ticket checkers had a big ol speaker on like a saucer on the lift line. It was a party.


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## RichT (Mar 7, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> I'd call today a pretty great spring skiing day weather-wise (and compounded by the fact that the mountain was almost eerily empty.) But you don't get more than a couple of those days without losing a lot of terrain if you're not sitting on a ton of base that's been banked. Which..well,   If the next 24 hours brings a great big pissing rainstorm as forecast, things are going to bleed out quick.


All the snow is gone by my house (7 mi from Hunter)......getting ready to rain for the next couple hours.


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## FBGM (Mar 7, 2022)

So I’m trying to contact Jack Frost/Big Boulder. (Vail). They are replacing 3 lifts and I’m interested in buying one of the ones coming out. It’s impossible to get a human on the phone, leave a message or get an email. I tried emailed their GM direct but the message came back to my inbox (it’s the correct email, I’m assuming they have some filter to not have people email him to complain). 

Does anyone have a contact down there? Phone or email?


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## 2Planker (Mar 7, 2022)

FBGM said:


> So I’m trying to contact Jack Frost/Big Boulder. (Vail). They are replacing 3 lifts and I’m interested in buying one of the ones coming out. It’s impossible to get a human on the phone, leave a message or get an email. I tried emailed their GM direct but the message came back to my inbox (it’s the correct email, I’m assuming they have some filter to not have people email him to complain).
> 
> Does anyone have a contact down there? Phone or email?


Nah,  More like they just don't give a shit and have bailed on this season already


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## ThatGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.


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## hardscrabble (Mar 7, 2022)

> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.



If they actually had any intention of doing this, they'd announce it a lot further down the road, not to mention once it's clear that there'd be enough snow to ride it out that long. Announcing it this early is a pure PR move so when they inevitably don't make it they can play the "oh well, see, at least we tried" card.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.



The weather will probably curtail those plans.  The way this spring is trending, unless there's a magical cold and snowy march, things are gonna end pretty early


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## icecoast1 (Mar 7, 2022)

hardscrabble said:


> If they actually had any intention of doing this, they'd announce it a lot further down the road, not to mention once it's clear that there'd be enough snow to ride it out that long. Announcing it this early is a pure PR move so when they inevitably don't make it they can play the "oh well, see, at least we tried" card.



Yup, probably an announcement on passes coming soon too.   Total PR move


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## RichT (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.


Ha Ha 24th? They may be open but not for skiing!


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## RichT (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.


Hunter says April 10th Ha Ha Ha.................


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## Zand (Mar 7, 2022)

I love how they're all proud of April 10th. I mean...mom and pop hills are sometimes open till April 10th. Ikon has 3 resorts that are perennially open until May. But woo...April 10th.


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## tumbler (Mar 7, 2022)

FBGM said:


> So I’m trying to contact Jack Frost/Big Boulder. (Vail). They are replacing 3 lifts and I’m interested in buying one of the ones coming out. It’s impossible to get a human on the phone, leave a message or get an email. I tried emailed their GM direct but the message came back to my inbox (it’s the correct email, I’m assuming they have some filter to not have people email him to complain).
> 
> Does anyone have a contact down there? Phone or email?


1-800-EAT-SHIT


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## gittist (Mar 7, 2022)

FBGM said:


> So I’m trying to contact Jack Frost/Big Boulder. (Vail). They are replacing 3 lifts and I’m interested in buying one of the ones coming out. It’s impossible to get a human on the phone, leave a message or get an email. I tried emailed their GM direct but the message came back to my inbox (it’s the correct email, I’m assuming they have some filter to not have people email him to complain).
> 
> Does anyone have a contact down there? Phone or email?


I called Phone: (570) 443-8425 a few times earlier in the year and they answered. You might want to try around 8 or 9 in the morning. With this weather they're probably upstairs in the bar having a meeting


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 7, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Yup, probably an announcement on passes coming soon too.   Total PR move


I agree this is a nothing more than a PR move. And sadly, I think it will work.


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## SLyardsale (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.


Sounds like a save face when they close down everything else early and blame it on the new lift construction.


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## ss20 (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just announced that Mt. Snow is shooting for the 24th of April. I’ll be impressed if they make it. Regardless of whether they do its such a slap in the face to NH the amount of effort thats gone to Vails VT resorts compared to their NH counterparts.



I looked on NESH and Mount Snow last went beyond the 24th in '07-08 when they made it to the 27th.  

As much as people love to rag on "Mt. Blow" they are in a pretty good snow belt and can usually eek out more than Stratton, Okemo, and Magic.  The big caveat being temperatures.  I can remember a lot of years with good natural snow and "normal" temperature springs Mount Snow could go far.  Much of their natural terrain is also narrow/shady.  This is all compared to their competition...Okemo/Stratton.


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## Pez (Mar 8, 2022)

How much rain did my snow get?  April 24th is a joke in SVT


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## Pez (Mar 8, 2022)

Also If you look on the website it says Carinthia specifically.


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2022)

Pez said:


> Also If you look on the website it says Carinthia specifically.



Just as an FYI, last season they closed with Carinthia only the last atleast 1, if not 2 weekends. And there have been 1 or 2 other seasons over the last decade where it was Carinthia only at the end of the season.

Also when it's Carinthia only at the end of the season, the vast majority of the jumps and platforms the features are installed on have been pushed out to keep a continuous snow surface so it's much more of a skiing/riding experience than a park experience.

Honestly as a Mount Snow regular, when this announcement was made yesterday, there sure seemed to be way more hoopla and complaining from the online ski forum crummudgeons than from the text threads with my Mount Snow friends who are far more likely to actually be there whenever closing day is.

And I will fully agree with the sentiment that unless Mother nature goes cold and snowy in the near future for a few weeks, that April 24th will be tough to make it too. And if mother nature stays in this once a week warm Monsoon pattern with only moderate cold air and little snow pattern, then it will be challenging to make April 24th, regardless of all the snow they made last week


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## jaytrem (Mar 8, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just as an FYI, last season they closed with Carinthia only the last atleast 1, if not 2 weekends. And there have been 1 or 2 other seasons over the last decade where it was Carinthia only at the end of the season.



I think it was just the very last day for Carinthia only last year.  Pretty sure the day before was a perfect North Face day with everything melting super fast.  Last day was ugly weather when the clouds rolled in.

The planned season extension is nice, and I do appreciate it.  But I'll be at Whistler for those last 2 weekends if all goes as planned.


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> I think it was just the very last day for Carinthia only last year.  Pretty sure the day before was a perfect North Face day with everything melting super fast.  Last day was ugly weather when the clouds rolled in.
> 
> The planned season extension is nice, and I do appreciate it.  But I'll be at Whistler for those last 2 weekends if all goes as planned.



Nope, that was the weekend before on the Northface.

The last weekend last year was Carinthia only, 100% certain of that, and that last weekend it finally snowed an apperciable amount for the 1st time in probably over a month, with some nice powder on Saturday that tuned into sticky snow by Sunday


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## icecoast1 (Mar 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I looked on NESH and Mount Snow last went beyond the 24th in '07-08 when they made it to the 27th.
> 
> As much as people love to rag on "Mt. Blow" they are in a pretty good snow belt and can usually eek out more than Stratton, Okemo, and Magic.  The big caveat being temperatures.  I can remember a lot of years with good natural snow and "normal" temperature springs Mount Snow could go far.  Much of their natural terrain is also narrow/shady.  This is all compared to their competition...Okemo/Stratton.



It's not really ragging on them, it's just stating the simple reality that given the current snow depths and weather outlook, the 24th is a huge stretch. What used to happen is pretty much out the window now with the Vail operation


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> It's not really ragging on them, it's just stating the simple reality that given the current snow depths and weather outlook, the 24th is a huge stretch. What used to happen is pretty much out the window now with the Vail operation



Serious question, especially when it  comes to Mount Snow and llate season operations?  Is a 2nd or 3rd weekend of April closing date really any different now than it was under Peak or even ASC before that?

I mean as regular there for a few decades, once or twice they hit early May, and once or twice, courtesy of Mother Nature (and COVID), they didn't make April.  Realistucally they close, somewhere in the April 10th to 20th range the vast majority of seasons, which short of 2 years ago when COVID ended everything Mid March, Vail has operated Mount Snow with that mid April closing date that is very typical for Mount Snow.

Now how Vail is operating other mountains is certainly open for debate, with respect to season length, however it seems thus far for Mount Snow atleast that Vail is following along with what the "normal" season length is


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## pinion247 (Mar 8, 2022)

Agreed, Peak had Snow opened into April and I don't see Vail really doing anything different from that existing playbook. If snowmaking was lacking early season it seems that they've made up for it since then. Operations isn't my issue with Vail re: Mount Snow. Crowds are. Always been crowded... Peak got them to max capacity most weekends... Vail has extended them so far beyond capacity that someone like me won't be back until April anyway because their core NY demo will already be planning out golf season by then and won't be on the slopes.

@drjeff wondering how your experience at Atticat was for your daughter's race?


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## jaytrem (Mar 8, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Nope, that was the weekend before on the Northface.
> 
> The last weekend last year was Carinthia only, 100% certain of that, and that last weekend it finally snowed an apperciable amount for the 1st time in probably over a month, with some nice powder on Saturday that tuned into sticky snow by Sunday



That does sound familiar.  I think I did something else or went somewhere else that weekend.  Must be getting old, can't remember what or where!


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Agreed, Peak had Snow opened into April and I don't see Vail really doing anything different from that existing playbook. If snowmaking was lacking early season it seems that they've made up for it since then. Operations isn't my issue with Vail re: Mount Snow. Crowds are. Always been crowded... Peak got them to max capacity most weekends... Vail has extended them so far beyond capacity that someone like me won't be back until April anyway because their core NY demo will already be planning out golf season by then and won't be on the slopes.
> 
> @drjeff wondering how your experience at Atticat was for your daughter's race?



Her race experince at Attitash was good.  Nothing special results wise, but she exceeded her rather modest goals she had for herself finish wise so no complaints as she finished out her highschool ski racing career! 

Seeing how Attitash was allowed to operate this season by the corporate folks out in CO, was eye opening.  Felt bad for the core staff there whom I sure feel so frustrated with what is going on there, at a place so many of them have deep ties and connections to and know how it can be operated.  

And amazingly enough, both the Summit Triple and Bear Peak HSQ never broke down when I was on them last weekend.....  Having the Yankee down for the hydraulic ram issue the entire time I was there wasn't fun, and really made getting back to the Bear Peak side a chore.

And I definitely had forgotten what fun terrain Attitash has in the probably 20 years it had been since I last skied there!


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## icecoast1 (Mar 8, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Serious question, especially when it  comes to Mount Snow and llate season operations?  Is a 2nd or 3rd weekend of April closing date really any different now than it was under Peak or even ASC before that?
> 
> I mean as regular there for a few decades, once or twice they hit early May, and once or twice, courtesy of Mother Nature (and COVID), they didn't make April.  Realistucally they close, somewhere in the April 10th to 20th range the vast majority of seasons, which short of 2 years ago when COVID ended everything Mid March, Vail has operated Mount Snow with that mid April closing date that is very typical for Mount Snow.
> 
> Now how Vail is operating other mountains is certainly open for debate, with respect to season length, however it seems thus far for Mount Snow atleast that Vail is following along with what the "normal" season length is



Do you think if there's ever a window of opportunity to make snow and open Mt Snow in October,  Vail will do that?  I don't.   By the numbers on a computer screen, yes the season is pretty close to identical to what it was, and they have made a lot of snow but in reality they aren't nearly as aggressive with snowmaking as the trend was heading post west lake with peak.  All of this March snowmaking is nice, but would it really have been necessary other than maybe a light resurface if they had actually taken advantage of all of the chances they had earlier in the year when it was much colder.   This attempt to stay open is nothing more than an attempt to save face with tanking stock prices, lots of unhappy customers and an impending mass Exodus to Ikon and other passes


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

Look better to blow a shit ton of snow at the tail end of the season rather than build the base consistently over the season. Now people will think Vail made a huge effort when they really did the bare minimum to keep people placid.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

Regardless of upper management the employees at Mt. Snow have been great. The lifties are always friendly and remember my name, plus snowmakers have done great with the windows Vail gives them.


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## sull1102 (Mar 8, 2022)

Went out at Snow this morning for a couple runs off the Canyon quad, as you can imagine it was brutal, but a pair of snowmakers were out connecting every other fan on Canyon and it looks like they’ll be blowing there tonight when it drops to 20 or so. I noticed this last month at Stowe, the off loading ramps are absolute horrific at Vail resorts. Seems like they just let the groomer do their best and no one is doing anything the rest of the day. Huge chunks of ice getting off Canyon this am, felt bad for some of the newer skiers that were making the best of the conditions. I have an Epic Pass midweek and a New England pass this year and the difference between Snow/Stowe and Sunday River/Loon has been incredible to witness first hand. I can’t picture myself renewing my epic pass.


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Do you think if there's ever a window of opportunity to make snow and open Mt Snow in October,  Vail will do that?  I don't.   By the numbers on a computer screen, yes the season is pretty close to identical to what it was, and they have made a lot of snow but in reality they aren't nearly as aggressive with snowmaking as the trend was heading post west lake with peak.  All of this March snowmaking is nice, but would it really have been necessary other than maybe a light resurface if they had actually taken advantage of all of the chances they had earlier in the year when it was much colder.   This attempt to stay open is nothing more than an attempt to save face with tanking stock prices, lots of unhappy customers and an impending mass Exodus to Ikon and other passes



I agree that an October opening is likely off the table. Pretty sure over the last 10 years, the weather only allowed for that 1 time though anyway.

Historically, on average, the Mount Snow season has been an opening the 2nd or 3rd weekend of November and a Closing the 2nd or 3rd weekend of April, and that is regardless of ownership.

Snowmaking wise, over the last decade or so, especially as the industry went big tme to low e fan guns and air/water guns as well, and they got more and more objective data about what it costs to make snow at various temperatures, it seems like the modern snow making strategy is from opening until early January, run the system aggressively when they get most windows to do so that are 12-18 hours or longer, to get trails open as well as get some early season base depths to help hold off any potential early warm, melting events.

Once they get past roughly MLK Day, especially if they have the snowmaking terrain open, unless its a freeze up after a thaw event or need more snow for park building, they now tend to wait for more efficient windows where the equipment is operating at/near maximum effciency and cost effectiveness in a effort to either put a 2nd run down on some of the lower priority snowmaking terrain as well as start to really build the depths on the core terrain.  And that phase now typically goes from mid January through mid February. This season also apparently some of Mount Snow's snowmaking crew was "loaned out" for a week or 2 to some of the sister Vail resorts that had smaller crews this season to play snowmaking catch up for those other resorts.

Once they get to Mid February now, it seems like that's when they get a bit more aggressive with the system on higher priorty trails that will be part of the operations plan for late season. And March now, if it's going to happen and the Spring depth building is done, is only about core trail resurfacing after a freeze up.

When you factor in the efficiency, objective data that they have along with the snowsat system they run in some of the cats that gives the mtn ops folks an actual look at how much base depth is over anywhere on the mountain a cat equipped with it goes, how they view the entire season of snowmaking ops certainly has changed over the last decade plus.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Not sure as both the old school ways of run it whenever and the new way of factoring in efficiency, sure seems to yield seasons that are pretty close in length


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## ctdubl07 (Mar 8, 2022)

To add to DJ's post, I dont see much point to opening in Oct. considering chance of a significant warm ups, multiple rain events or lack of cold in ground to est good base. Plus you have so many families still involved with wknd sports thru 11/1, hard to get additional margins.  This years snowmaking has been super aggressive to the point where its something Vail should be lauded for, especially this late in season, when benched against all the operational complaints posted here re: other locations. 
Last week/end they blew a sh*t ton on Carinthia at Fools and Nitro. Both were closed all wknd with monster whales on top of previous builds. That will be a good stock piles to continue to push out, like they did last season in April, to extend trail surface. It will be down to wknd only ops toward the end and Carinthia the last hold out. 

An observation about a "new" cultural phenomenon that I think is a byproduct of the Mtn under last seasons Covid operations, the parking lots have a lot more tailgating than in past years. Thats not something that MSer's did in past. I like to see it other than the trash in my side yard or tons of cans on p-lot but Ops are out every morning cleaning the parking lot pretty diligently.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> This years snowmaking has been super aggressive to the point where its something Vail should be lauded for, especially this late in season


Have we been skiing at the same mountain? This years snowmaking has been anything but aggressive and they’re making a bunch now because the mountain wouldn’t have made it another two weeks with the way it was looking. Don’t get me wrong I appreciate the snow being blow but aggressive isn’t the word Id use.


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## pinion247 (Mar 8, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I appreciate the snow being blow but aggressive isn’t the word Id use


_Defensive_ snow making


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## 2Planker (Mar 8, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> _Defensive_ snow making


What is this snow making you speak of ??
  Sorry, we are from WildCat


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## Mum skier (Mar 8, 2022)

I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.
Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.  
How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. Unfortunately I start a new job in a couple weeks, so I can hardly take the full week off so it would be something like leave Thursday before Good Friday return Tuesday or Weds after Easter Monday. So a holiday and a weekend and probably limited terrain. Recipe for disaster?


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## Edd (Mar 8, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.
> Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.
> How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. Unfortunately I start a new job in a couple weeks, so I can hardly take the full week off so it would be something like leave Thursday before Good Friday return Tuesday or Weds after Easter Monday. So a holiday and a weekend and probably limited terrain. Recipe for disaster?


With those parameters....I wouldn't. Was going to say yes but those days could be bad.


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## FBGM (Mar 8, 2022)

Heard Elk was brutal today. My dad skied (by ski I mean 3 runs on boiler plate then to bar) 

I closed my little place. Wind rowed and pushed out everything to air and dry. Collect a few inches of natty tomorrow. Then will double till everything for Friday/Sat/Sun. Should be decent. But it’s a semi private bump


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## JoeB-Z (Mar 8, 2022)

I have an Epic weekday pass. Given the current emergency, what is best? I usually ski at Magic (season pass) but it is looking sad. My VT place is halfway between Okemo and Sunapee. I think I head to Mt. Snow but I have five days at Stowe left. And then the damn gas. Anyone want to share gas from Ascutney to Stowe?


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> I have an Epic weekday pass. Given the current emergency, what is best? I usually ski at Magic (season pass) but it is looking sad. My VT place is halfway between Okemo and Sunapee. I think I head to Mt. Snow but I have five days at Stowe left. And then the damn gas. Anyone want to share gas from Ascutney to Stowe?


Honestly I wouldn’t even make the extra drive to Stowe, they got hit pretty hard from this rain as well.


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## chuckstah (Mar 8, 2022)

It looks like Wildcat has at least one gun running. I guess they can't close before next season's passes go on sale. Or is this fake news.....


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## pinion247 (Mar 8, 2022)

I don't think that pic is from today. Or even this year. I could be wrong...


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

The snow surfaces “team” is the guy taking the picture who pulled the groomer up in front of the only snow gun going.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Now people will think Vail made a huge effort when they really did the bare minimum to keep people placid.



I definitely think Vail has heard the complaints from coast-to-coast, is worried, and is making a last minute desperate attempt to hand out milk & cookies.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> An observation about a "new" cultural phenomenon that I think is a byproduct of the Mtn under last seasons Covid operations, the parking lots have a lot more tailgating than in past years. Thats not something that MSer's did in past. I like to see it other than the *trash in my side yard or tons of cans on p-lot but Ops are out every morning cleaning the parking lot pretty diligently.*



That's pretty surprising to hear.  Ski folk are usually very respectful of nature & not the scummy littering type.  Sure, you may see a random can under a lift, but to hear a resort gets wholesale littered by its clientele surprises me.


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## trackbiker (Mar 8, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.
> Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.
> How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. Unfortunately I start a new job in a couple weeks, so I can hardly take the full week off so it would be something like leave Thursday before Good Friday return Tuesday or Weds after Easter Monday. So a holiday and a weekend and probably limited terrain. Recipe for disaster?


I have no idea about Vail but I skied 5 years in a row over Easter in Utah going back some years but it was never crowded. People aren't usually booking trips that late in the season and the locals have church and family plans for Easter. Also, spring sports have started in most areas by then so people are in a different mode. It may be more crowded than in the past with the Epic crap but it shouldn't be crazy Epic crap crowded.


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## trackbiker (Mar 8, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I definitely think Vail doesn't give a crap about the customer experience but has seen their stock price tank, is worried, and is making a last minute desperate attempt to hand out milk & cookies.


FIFY


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> *I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.*
> Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.
> *How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. *



This is one of those "cookies", IMO.   We skied Vail Easter 2017, same timeframe as 2022.  When we arrived everything was open, but we were turbo lucky as it got so warm that the place was pretty much done-done in 48 hours at the end of our stay from the base to at least 1/3 up (WROD to get down).  In terms of crowds, it was great, Easter'ish usually is as many people have ended their ski season and/or their kids have moved on to spring sports.  Personally, I'd say go for it.  Worst-case scenario, Loveland & Arapahoe Basin (I liked both better than Vail anyway) will have snow.


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## ss20 (Mar 8, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's pretty surprising to hear.  Ski folk are usually very respectful of nature & not the scummy littering type.  Sure, you may see a random can under a lift, but to hear a resort gets wholesale littered by its clientele surprises me.



Have you skied Mount Snow?   I'm surprised the parking lots don't look like a landfill by Sunday evening.... the trails under the lifts certainly do once the snow is gone and you see nothing but PBR, Bud Light, and Red Bull cans.


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## pinion247 (Mar 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Have you skied Mount Snow?   I'm surprised the parking lots don't look like a landfill by Sunday evening.... the trails under the lifts certainly do once the snow is gone and you see nothing but PBR, Bud Light, and Red Bull cans.


My thoughts exactly haha


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Have you skied Mount Snow?   I'm surprised the parking lots don't look like a landfill by Sunday evening.... the trails under the lifts certainly do once the snow is gone and you see nothing but PBR, Bud Light, and Red Bull cans.


You beat me to it. Was going to say the same exact thing


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Have you skied Mount Snow?



Never.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never.


Doing yourself a favor 

But in all seriousness its not a bad mountain at all. Especially North Face and Sunbrook area, some decent tree skiing as well. Weekends are a zoo but thats how most of SoVT is nowadays.


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## kendo (Mar 8, 2022)

The Wintry Mix podcaster gives some advice to Vail on how to fix their epic problems. Worth the 10 min listen. 









						All of us love to complain about the numerous problems with Vail Resorts.
					

^LEFT: WFG on his classic Marquette Backcountry Skis. RIGHT: Wintry Mix Podcast Logo All of us love to complain about the numerous problems with Vail Resorts. To be fair, it’s pretty easy to …




					unofficialnetworks.com


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## RichT (Mar 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's pretty surprising to hear.  Ski folk are usually very respectful of nature & not the scummy littering type.  Sure, you may see a random can under a lift, but to hear a resort gets wholesale littered by its clientele surprises me.


I guess you haven't been to Hunter, they used to have "drop zones" under the lifts. Vail took them away so now everywhere is a drop zone, it's horrible.


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## Edd (Mar 9, 2022)

RichT said:


> I guess you haven't been to Hunter, they used to have "drop zones" under the lifts. Vail took them away so now everywhere is a drop zone, it's horrible.


Never heard of this; can you elaborate on what a drop zone was?


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## djd66 (Mar 9, 2022)

Edd said:


> Never heard of this; can you elaborate on what a drop zone was?


I’m guessing it’s a place where you can drop your trash (empty beer cans) off the lift.  WTF is it with people? You are too lazy to put it in a trash can? Glad we don’t really have an issue like this at Sugarbush.


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## Edd (Mar 9, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I’m guessing it’s a place where you can drop your trash (empty beer cans) off the lift.  WTF is it with people? You are too lazy to put it in a trash can? Glad we don’t really have an issue like this at Sugarbush.


My guess as well, but hoping I was wrong because it sounds a bit insane.


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## kendo (Mar 9, 2022)

55gal drum (under liftline near the top) with a net around the open top creating a funnel/target. 

People still dropped cans along the upper liftline rocks and boulders...


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## pinion247 (Mar 9, 2022)

kendo said:


> The Wintry Mix podcaster gives some advice to Vail on how to fix their epic problems. Worth the 10 min listen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is good. I always liked the epicliftlines stance on Vail: constructively critical. Vail Corporate could pay a firm $2k+ an hour to identify strategic weaknesses, or just listen to this podcast and figure out the rest themselves.


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## pinion247 (Mar 9, 2022)

kendo said:


> 55gal drum (under liftline near the top) with a net around the open top creating a funnel/target.
> 
> People still dropped cans along the upper liftline rocks and boulders...



Crazy to me, but I guess they were just trying their best to address an obvious problem? Though addressing it this way kinda condones it, no?

I skied over a Truly can under Bobcat lift at Wildcat a few weeks ago. Was pretty pissed. It's usually rare to see cans there, but maybe times are changing. Not a lift-line thing, but last week I was at Deer Valley and a guy was snowplowing down the late-day piles that build up on that last descent down Birdseye to Silver Lake. Got tossed about, turned backwards, and ate it hard after bouncing a few times. I skied up to help him get his gear together: 1 ski, 2 poles, a White Claw, and a Bud Light


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## 2Planker (Mar 9, 2022)

kendo said:


> 55gal drum (under liftline near the top) with a net around the open top creating a funnel/target.
> 
> People still dropped cans along the upper liftline rocks and boulders...


SR way back in the early 90's  had that at the top of Barker.
 It filled up almost every day, and downloading the trash & lifty at last chair was last task of the day


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## deadheadskier (Mar 9, 2022)

RichT said:


> I guess you haven't been to Hunter, they used to have "drop zones" under the lifts. Vail took them away so now everywhere is a drop zone, it's horrible.



Pats Peak and Shawnee have these as well.  They get used at both mountains A LOT during night skiing.  Combination of drunks and then kids throwing away energy drink cans. 

Crotched has a fair amount of litter with night skiing as well.  Pretty common site in the mornings there seeing Joshua Segal being a good Samaritan and picking up the trash in the morning.


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## urungus (Mar 9, 2022)

Bousquet used to have a basketball hoop you could aim for when tossing your empties from the lift


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## kendo (Mar 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> Vail Corporate could pay a firm $2k+ an hour to identify strategic weaknesses, or just listen to this podcast and figure out the rest themselves.



... or read this thread.   



Biggest impact for us in the Northeast would be to replace the current VP/COO for the Eastern Region with an industry veteran from the NE. 

Current VP/COO grew up in west Texas, was responsible for real estate at Beaver Creek, then 2yrs as VP/COO at Crested Butte.  Little concept of the nuances for running an eastern resort where snowmaking is required early and often throughout the entire year to ensure surface conditions and late season ops; night skiing is a way to get folks on the hill all week, especially kids after school; most eastern resorts have a long-established quality that makes them unique & that people are attracted to... and important to maintain; engage your local clientele for areas that need improvement and be transparent with a plan to address; etc.   

Skiing is a generational sport in the NE with families dedicated to their local mountain.  It's important to ensure that legacy isn't lost.


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## machski (Mar 9, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.
> Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.
> How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. Unfortunately I start a new job in a couple weeks, so I can hardly take the full week off so it would be something like leave Thursday before Good Friday return Tuesday or Weds after Easter Monday. So a holiday and a weekend and probably limited terrain. Recipe for disaster?


Most of the "Be seen" crowd will have moved on by April, so crowds will be lighter.  As to Vail terrain still in play, weatherwise anyway they will need a heavy snow March for anything beyond the frontside open, and then it could possibly be just the upper Mount and download.  Last week while we were there, we had temps climb into 40's for two days then 59's for a few.  Back Bowls we're taking a beating but hanging in there.  They did get more snow after so it is likely better now.  Breck is usually Vail's late player, so there would be that option too.  But as to operation plans for open terrain, Vail might still truncate terrain by then even if mother nature doesn't.


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## machski (Mar 9, 2022)

We pick on Vail in the East, but OMG I have never seen so many slows/stops with Detachable chairs as at Vail and Breck.  Good God.  The 6 chairs are the absolutely worst, the dual load Quicksilver at Breck being the absolute worst.  If you base out of 9 and aren't on that thing at the bell, better to hike or shuttle up to the Beaver Run Quad.  The only 6 that ran smooth at either was Avanti at Vail.  It also happens to be the only Dopp 6 and has a loading carpet that places everyone exactly at the right spot from the wait gate.  

Honestly, they have a ton of clueless folks at both resorts.  Guess that maybe good if they are true newbies.  Regardless, they need to figure it out because it was super frustrating.  I honestly believe they could cut the slow/stops in half by either moving back the Epic Mix gantries or getting rid of them.  Even found myself wanting to wait there for next chair instead at the little snow stick yellow "wait here" signs beyond the gantries.

Haven't used my Epic a ton in East because of the operations in NH and weather, but has anyone notice the gantries causing folks to wait too far back then misloads detaches out East?


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> This is good. I always liked the epicliftlines stance on Vail: constructively critical. Vail Corporate could pay a firm $2k+ an hour to identify strategic weaknesses, or just listen to this podcast.



I think one of the challenges that you will see the folks who make the decisions about pricing structure and operational decsions is the push to make the sport more "diverse and inclusive", just like in so many areas of the rest of society, and then the primary perceived notion as it seems that the cost is the major factor that is hindering the expansion of the sport into more diverse population bases.

Whether that is the primary hindering factor I am sure is open for plenty of debate from all sides.  Will it likely play some roll in how pricing structures are set? I would guess it will.

There are about 1001 variables it seems that are leading to the issues at hand. Many of which don't have a readily available simple, quick solution


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## urungus (Mar 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I think one of the challenges that you will see the folks who make the decisions about pricing structure and operational decsions is the push to make the sport more "diverse and inclusive", just like in so many areas of the rest of society, and then the primary perceived notion as it seems that the cost is the major factor that is hindering the expansion of the sport into more diverse population bases.


The talk about “diversity and inclusion” is a cynical attempt to silence critics of their low pass prices.  But when they set those prices, if you think it was for some altruistic motive of getting disadvantaged people out on the slopes, well then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2022)

urungus said:


> The talk about “diversity and inclusion” is a cynical attempt to silence critics of their low pass prices.  But when they set those prices, if you think it was for some altruistic motive of getting disadvantaged people out on the slopes, well then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.



I fully agree with you on this!

Just found it an interesting commentary that you keep hearing from numerous industry heads over the last couple of years.

And while I hope for so many reasons that folks of all backgrounds give this great sport a try and learn to love it as much as so many of us AZ'ers do, it's going to be an uphill battle for sure to make significant inroads into many of these communties and population demographics they are trying to get into the sport, and while price may be one of the factors, it certainly isn't the only factor for sure.

The reality is more likely that it will take many indoor ski facilities near large urban areas, with aggressively priced learn to ski and ride programs to probably see something resembling a tangible gain in the target demographics


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 9, 2022)

Great posts about the inclusion and diversity.  the reason those folks don't ski is it is expensive.  They still can't afford a $500 Northeast Epic pass.  Its just marketing, chest thumping speak for the ski corporations.   there are bigger issues that would need to be solved that aren't skiing related to have those folks be able to afford skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2022)

urungus said:


> The talk about “diversity and inclusion” is a cynical attempt to silence critics of their low pass prices.  But when they set those prices, if you think it was for some altruistic motive of getting disadvantaged people out on the slopes, well then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in.


Completely agree.  It also is aimed at making "locals" who can be critics of the "big ski corp" and/or discount passes look like xenophobes.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Completely agree.  It also is aimed at making "locals" who can be critics of the "big ski corp" and/or discount passes look like xenophobes.


Have a sticker on my helmet saying VailSucks, some random guy at Mt. Snow picked a fight with me in the lift line about how Vail is the only reason I’m skiing there. Not like I’ve been skiing there my whole life and will continue to after Vails inevitable demise.


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I fully agree with you on this!
> 
> Just found it an interesting commentary that you keep hearing from numerous industry heads over the last couple of years.
> 
> ...



Lots of good points here. Additionally I'll add that a "cheap" season pass is pointless for people that have potentially never skied at all before. Even if they can afford the cost of the pass, they're not going to buy a pass if they haven't skied before. You need cheap "learn to ski" type packages to attract people to the sport first. Once they decide they like the sport, then a cheap pass becomes useful. But getting new people to that point is what is missing today in Vail's strategy.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 9, 2022)

Come enjoy our cheap passes!  Stay for our Vail hotel rooms that only cost as much as your rent for one nights stay!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 9, 2022)

980.00 a day for private lessons...hey...sign me up...
But a first time group lesson is 163.00
You would need several of those..plus rental..and a ticket...
Um....


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## Vince (Mar 9, 2022)

Best drop zone is at West Mountain NY


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## MidnightJester (Mar 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 980.00 a day for private lessons...hey...sign me up...
> But a first time group lesson is 163.00
> You would need several of those..plus rental..and a ticket...
> Um....



There definitely has to be more options out there for mountains to bring in new Skiers and Riders. Some type of group lesson and rental and learner lift ticket has to be in the $100 and less range to build a new snow learner that has limited funds.

I was lucky enough to stumble onto a Burton "Learn to Snowboard" day that was free if you signed up ahead. Rental, group lesson and lift ticket.
Invested in mid level equipment the next week or two and was off to hiking near to the group lessons(hint hint) and watching and learning  for 7 days or so for free.


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 9, 2022)

The Sugarbush "First time to lifetime" learn to ski program seems to be successful. Take 3 lessons and "graduate" with a free season pass for the year (the deal included rentals, lift ticket and 3 2-hour lessons) You could complete the "program in a weekend. Used to have an add-on 4th lesson and you get a pair of skis too. Don't know the exact cost but I remember thinking it was quite reasonable. More areas should do the same.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 9, 2022)

Skied with a teacher at Stowe monday. Hes booked all the time. One guy dropped 7 grand for a week of lessons for his kids. Guess if its working why change it. There are a lot of people out there..that could buy the resorts if they wanted...


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2022)

Boxtop Willie said:


> The Sugarbush "First time to lifetime" learn to ski program seems to be successful. Take 3 lessons and "graduate" with a free season pass for the year (the deal included rentals, lift ticket and 3 2-hour lessons) You could complete the "program in a weekend. Used to have an add-on 4th lesson and you get a pair of skis too. Don't know the exact cost but I remember thinking it was quite reasonable. More areas should do the same.


Yup. $479 is the current cost for the package. So $160 a day for lift ticket, rentals, and lessons which in and of itself isn't a bad deal. AND you get the free season pass at the end of the program (if you are actually a true first timer that never skied or snowboarded at all before).


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## drjeff (Mar 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Skied with a teacher at Stowe monday. Hes booked all the time. One guy dropped 7 grand for a week of lessons for his kids. Guess if its working why change it. There are a lot of people out there..that could buy the resorts if they wanted...


Fully agree.

Was sitting next to a looked to be late 30's/early 40's 2 sets of couple up in the Mount Snow Summit lodge a couple of weekends ago warming up, and my wife and I overheard them talking about their mutual friend who's family had just gotten back from 10 days at Vail where they had their 6 year old in private lessons for 10 days straight at $1200 a day! With the tip, they apparently dropped 15k on lessons for their 6yr old on that trip!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I’m guessing *it’s a place where you can drop your trash (empty beer cans) off the lift.*  WTF is it with people? You are too lazy to put it in a trash can?



Only place I've seen this is in the Poconos at Blue Mountain IIRC.  IMO it seems to backfire & instead gives people license to think they can just huck crap from the lift.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Great posts about the inclusion and diversity.  *the reason those folks don't ski is it is expensive. *



That's the common belief, but I have serious doubts based on other things where that was the exact same belief, so it was made cheaper (or free), and yet it still didn't increase "diversity" much at all.   While I'm sure it might be the case for some, for the majority my belief is Occam's Razor best explains why "those folks" don't ski.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> * they had their 6 year old in private lessons for 10 days straight at $1200 a day!*



This is why guerilla ski lessons have become a thing.  Makes sense to me.  Were I local to a Vail or a Park City or a Jackson Hole with plenty of qualified instructors local, I would 100% go that route for qualified instruction.   I have no idea when ski lessons became, _"let's bleed the rich at an absurd price to hit our nut rather than go for volume at a rational price for everyone"_, but it's not a good thing for our sport.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 9, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> It looks like Wildcat has at least one gun running. I guess they can't close before next season's passes go on sale. Or is this fake news.....View attachment 53542


They don’t have a single black Diamond open right now. Pathetic.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 9, 2022)

machski said:


> We pick on Vail in the East, but OMG I have never seen so many slows/stops with Detachable chairs as at Vail and Breck.  Good God.  The 6 chairs are the absolutely worst, the dual load Quicksilver at Breck being the absolute worst.  If you base out of 9 and aren't on that thing at the bell, better to hike or shuttle up to the Beaver Run Quad.  The only 6 that ran smooth at either was Avanti at Vail.  It also happens to be the only Dopp 6 and has a loading carpet that places everyone exactly at the right spot from the wait gate.
> 
> Honestly, they have a ton of clueless folks at both resorts.  Guess that maybe good if they are true newbies.  Regardless, they need to figure it out because it was super frustrating.  I honestly believe they could cut the slow/stops in half by either moving back the Epic Mix gantries or getting rid of them.  Even found myself wanting to wait there for next chair instead at the little snow stick yellow "wait here" signs beyond the gantries.
> 
> Haven't used my Epic a ton in East because of the operations in NH and weather, but has anyone notice the gantries causing folks to wait too far back then misloads detaches out East?


That’s why I don’t get why people want 6 and 8 packs. Imagine 8 beginners all trying to get off the lift at once?! Lol


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## eatskisleep (Mar 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is why guerilla ski lessons have become a thing.  Makes sense to me.  Were I local to a Vail or a Park City or a Jackson Hole with plenty of qualified instructors local, I would 100% go that route for qualified instruction.   I have no idea when ski lessons became, _"let's bleed the rich at an absurd price to hit our nut rather than go for volume at a rational price for everyone"_, but it's not a good thing for our sport.


Long term this is all terrible for the sport. Vail is very short sighted.


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## Smellytele (Mar 9, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> That’s why I don’t get why people want 6 and 8 packs. Imagine 8 beginners all trying to get off the lift at once?! Lol


I have at Loon. It is quite comical


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## chuckstah (Mar 9, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> They don’t have a single black Diamond open right now. Pathetic.


Yup, basically 2 trails. Pathetic.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 10, 2022)

When they put the new 6 in at Hunter..i said MRG...ski it if you can...Hunter..get off it if you can...


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## machski (Mar 10, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> That’s why I don’t get why people want 6 and 8 packs. Imagine 8 beginners all trying to get off the lift at once?! Lol


Getting off wasn't the major issue, it was getting into position to load.


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## machski (Mar 10, 2022)

All the locals I talked to the past 3 days at CB hate Vail too.  Apparently the Evil empire is shutting them down 2 weeks earlier than past norms on April 2nd.  Even though CB has the deepest base depth and most snowfall of Vail properties in CO this season to date.


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## Pez (Mar 10, 2022)

I wonder when Epic will go on sale?  Last year it was the 23rd


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## snoseek (Mar 10, 2022)

machski said:


> All the locals I talked to the past 3 days at CB hate Vail too.  Apparently the Evil empire is shutting them down 2 weeks earlier than past norms on April 2nd.  Even though CB has the deepest base depth and most snowfall of Vail properties in CO this season to date.


I've spent some time over there in the past couple weeks and got the same vibe. Honestly if nh resorts ran half as good as cb I would be thrilled. It's a pure fuck you to the locals to shut with how good it is right now. To vail it makes sense because the masses aren't hitting cb after mid March.


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## ss20 (Mar 10, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is why guerilla ski lessons have become a thing.  Makes sense to me.  Were I local to a Vail or a Park City or a Jackson Hole with plenty of qualified instructors local, I would 100% go that route for qualified instruction.   I have no idea when ski lessons became, _"let's bleed the rich at an absurd price to hit our nut rather than go for volume at a rational price for everyone"_, but it's not a good thing for our sport.



I hear this argument a lot that private lessons are price gouging.  There is a reason... It is not just because the resorts can get away with it.

You pair an instructor up with one private all day that's $700-$1200 for the lesson, one lift ticket sold, and one set of rentals (if needed).  A group lesson goes for considerably less per person ($150-$400).  But if you can get 3 or more people in that lesson, all buying a lift ticket in addition to that, it's a LOT more money for the resort.  

I'm not here to defend the industry...lessons as a whole are overpriced.  But group lessons are what brings in the revenue on the busy days.  Using any pricing structure I'm familiar with, 10 instructors teaching 20 private students will bring in considerably less revenue than 10 instructors teaching 50 students.  

"Stack 'em and pack 'em" was an old slogan the director would tell us other supervisors.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Fully agree.
> 
> Was sitting next to a looked to be late 30's/early 40's 2 sets of couple up in the Mount Snow Summit lodge a couple of weekends ago warming up, and my wife and I overheard them talking about their mutual friend who's family had just gotten back from 10 days at Vail where they had their 6 year old in private lessons for 10 days straight at $1200 a day! With the tip, they apparently dropped 15k on lessons for their 6yr old on that trip!



I am still shook up at some of the money I see clients drop on a single week ski vacation.  It's tough for me to fathom still, 8 years into this job.  The family you overheard spent more on 10 days in Vail than most Americans earn in a year.  My "favorite" is the family ski privates who will spend $120+ everyday on lunch and end up throwing away most of the food.  I don't think I've ever spent $120 on ski resort food in a single season, skiing 60+ days a year.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> "Stack 'em and pack 'em" was an old slogan the director would tell us other supervisors.



That really makes it even worse given teaching isnt a top concern, and no wonder "guerilla lessons" are now a thing.  Imagine if the best teaching possible wasn't the primary concern of your kid's tennis lessons or violin lessons, nobody would stand for it.  Odd how in the ski industry it's just accepted.


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## hovercraft (Mar 11, 2022)

machski said:


> All the locals I talked to the past 3 days at CB hate Vail too.  Apparently the Evil empire is shutting them down 2 weeks earlier than past norms on April 2nd.  Even though CB has the deepest base depth and most snowfall of Vail properties in CO this season to date.


That’s weird as I just googled the ending dates and the latest the mountain stayed open was 4/9 back in 16/17 season.  All other closing dates were the first weekend in April


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## skiur (Mar 11, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> That’s weird as I just googled the ending dates and the latest the mountain stayed open was 4/9 back in 16/17 season.  All other closing dates were the first weekend in AprilView attachment 53574



How dare you interrupt a good Vail bashing with facts!


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## hovercraft (Mar 11, 2022)

Every party needs a party er  on occasion. Keeping it real


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

No...facts!!


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

Slug you have an image for every occasion


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 11, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Fully agree.
> 
> Was sitting next to a looked to be late 30's/early 40's 2 sets of couple up in the Mount Snow Summit lodge a couple of weekends ago warming up, and my wife and I overheard them talking about their mutual friend who's family had just gotten back from 10 days at Vail where they had their 6 year old in private lessons for 10 days straight at $1200 a day! With the tip, they apparently dropped 15k on lessons for their 6yr old on that trip!



people spend crazy money. i had to fly for work last week and i was at a restaurant in newark airport and a guy at the next table was loudly and obnoxiously talking about his $3000 per night ski in/out place he rented for a week at Breckenridge over president's week, and then he's complaining about how the mountain is crowded. hey idiot, spend half as much on lodging and the difference on lift tickets and ski someplace not called Breckenridge. i had to get up and change seats i couldn't handle listening to this rich fuck spout off.

I'm glad idiots like this exist and will continue paying for $3000 ski in ski out lodging at absurdly crowded resorts on holiday weeks.


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## machski (Mar 11, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> That’s weird as I just googled the ending dates and the latest the mountain stayed open was 4/9 back in 16/17 season.  All other closing dates were the first weekend in AprilView attachment 53574


I was basing that off what a Patroller told me on a lift ride.  That said, I also overheard some locals say CB has always had a hard stop mid April because of being in the Gunnison NF and Elk migration season.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> That really makes it even worse given teaching isnt a top concern, and no wonder "guerilla lessons" are now a thing.  Imagine if the best teaching possible wasn't the primary concern of your kid's tennis lessons or violin lessons, nobody would stand for it.  Odd how in the ski industry it's just accepted.



He was pretty old school.  Myself and a couple other supers made sure that did not happen, lol.  We'd go inside and give the office firm lesson maximum capacity numbers.  They were in on it as they'd get a ton less complaints when there weren't lots of students in group lessons, as you can imagine.  Final nail in that coffin was covid forcing smaller groups.  

Groups are in general getting smaller.  Powdr had MAX4, 4 students in a group lesson.  That's no longer a thing tho.  Vail caps out at 6 students.  Deer Valley at 4.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> No...facts!!View attachment 53575


Picture worth a thousand words


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## gittist (Mar 11, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> No...facts!!View attachment 53575


One of my favorite comedies!  I went through Marine boot camp. When that movie came out my wife and I were sitting next to a Green Beret in the theater. He and I were laughing about the boot camp scenes..."did they do that to you? No, but they did..".  Watching the looks on people's faces  was just as funny.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> *Groups are in general getting smaller.*  Powdr had MAX4, 4 students in a group lesson.  That's no longer a thing tho.  Vail caps out at 6 students.  Deer Valley at 4.



That surely means they're getting more expensive I imagine.  Makes no sense to me.  Like I said, you can get decent quality private tennis, piano, violin, golf, etc... instruction for $100 an hour, so why not skiing?  My complete speculation is that underground guerilla ski lessons are far more common than any of us know.  Markets always find a way.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> That surely means they're getting more expensive I imagine.  Makes no sense to me.  Like I said, you can get decent quality private tennis, piano, violin, golf, etc... instruction for $100 an hour, so why not skiing?  My complete speculation is that underground guerilla ski lessons are far more common than any of us know.  Markets always find a way.



Average going rate for private ski lessons for one person is between $90-$130 per hour depending where you go with some outliers on either side.  

Underground ski instruction is a thing.  But no, it is not as common as you would think.  The risks greatly outweigh the reward in the eyes of 98% of instructors.  First you could get convicted on theft of services.  Second if you get hurt you're not getting worker's comp.  That's the big one.... instructor injuries are more common than you'd probably expect.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Underground ski instruction is a thing.  But no, it is not as common as you would think.  The risks greatly outweigh the reward in the eyes of 98% of instructors.  First you could get convicted on theft of services.  Second if you get hurt you're not getting worker's comp.  That's the big one.... instructor injuries are more common than you'd probably expect.


Also will lose PSIA membership. Overall not worth it at all if you already have a job as an instructor.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Also will lose PSIA membership. Overall not worth it at all if you already have a job as an instructor.



Yeah you'd never work in the industry again, that's certain.  It's a job people take for passion, not the money, so few get corrupted.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Average going rate for private ski lessons for one person is between $90-$130 per hour depending where you go with some outliers on either side.
> 
> Underground ski instruction is a thing.  But no, it is not as common as you would think.  The risks greatly outweigh the reward in the eyes of 98% of instructors.  First you could get convicted on theft of services.  Second if you get hurt you're not getting worker's comp.  That's the big one.... instructor injuries are more common than you'd probably expect.


I have to be honest, I still don't quite understand the whole "theft of services" thing. Why is instructing where they draw the line? You can rent skis off mountain, or bring food from off-mountain, yet if you bring someone along to coach you, all of a sudden it becomes illegal? I just don't get it.


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## skiur (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I have to be honest, I still don't quite understand the whole "theft of services" thing. Why is instructing where they draw the line? You can rent skis off mountain, or bring food from off-mountain, yet if you bring someone along to coach you, all of a sudden it becomes illegal? I just don't get it.


How does the mountain prove that this happened?  Just deny that this person paid you to instruct them, as long as they do the same how could it be proven otherwise?  It's not illegal to teach someone to ski, only to be paid for it.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I have to be honest, I still don't quite understand the whole "theft of services" thing. Why is instructing where they draw the line? You can rent skis off mountain, or bring food from off-mountain, yet if you bring someone along to coach you, all of a sudden it becomes illegal? I just don't get it.



Because it's not $100 ski rentals or bringing a $25 pizza into the lodge to feed your family at lunch.  It's much more than lift ticket theft as well.  It's $700+ per day "stolen" from the resort by a member of the industry community that absolutely knows the wrongness and consequences of what they are doing.  Instructors are not independent contractors.  They are a "product" sold by their mountain.  If I had a client want to ski at Solitude it could be arranged.  But I'd be in my Alta coat, paid by Alta, and my client would book through Alta... because that is my current ski school. 

Legally, the mountains on public land can operate in whatever reasonable means they have to in order to be a profitable private business.  And that means no outside instruction permitted.  I understand your argument of the outside food/rentals... but the price of instruction and the effect that has on a resort's bottom line makes that another can of worms.

There is a massive thread on SkiTalk on this issue for those interested- https://www.skitalk.com/threads/ski-school-monopolies.25326/

This was my one post in the thread-


> As it's been said... count me in with being tired of making the resort $1,000+ and me seeing a single-digit percentage in return.
> 
> Here's a new perspective... the "solution" starts with PSIA. PSIA acts on behalf of it's members (ski/snowboard instructors) and the resorts. Hence you see a lot of PSIA branding and the designation of "PSIA member school" at the resort. There needs to be a separation, IMO. PSIA should represent the individual members and nothing more. They should represent the ski instructor as a faux union or trade organization. They should NOT be involved with resorts. I think that day may come, eventually.



I am in the boat of MANY who see the system as flawed.  But I, like MANY, do not see myself so disillusioned that I'd go the underground route.  I'd love to see myself as an independent contractor, with my own client pool, and not tied to a resort.  But that's not the way the rules of the game are written at the moment... so if I love what I do... I have to work with how the system is.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I have to be honest, I still don't quite understand the whole "theft of services" thing. Why is instructing where they draw the line? You can rent skis off mountain, or bring food from off-mountain, yet if you bring someone along to coach you, all of a sudden it becomes illegal? I just don't get it.


You can bring someone to coach you, just not pay them for it. Lessons are also lot more $ for the mountain then rentals and there are rental+lesson packages. I agree the lines are blurred but it is what it is at the moment.

SS20s answer is perfect


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Because it's not $100 ski rentals or bringing a $25 pizza into the lodge to feed your family at lunch.  It's much more than lift ticket theft as well.  It's $700+ per day "stolen" from the resort by a member of the industry community that absolutely knows the wrongness and consequences of what they are doing.  Instructors are not independent contractors.  They are a "product" sold by their mountain.  If I had a client want to ski at Solitude it could be arranged.  But I'd be in my Alta coat, paid by Alta, and my client would book through Alta... because that is my current ski school.
> 
> Legally, the mountains on public land can operate in whatever reasonable means they have to in order to be a profitable private business.  And that means no outside instruction permitted.  I understand your argument of the outside food/rentals... but the price of instruction and the effect that has on a resort's bottom line makes that another can of worms.
> 
> ...



Sorry...I don't understand why "price" is somehow a determining factor. The value (per VT law) is only a factor in the potential punishment. There's no minimum value in the law.

I've read through 4 pages of that thread so far and don't see any actual "legal" reason why/how ski areas can have exclusive rights on instructing.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

skiur said:


> How does the mountain prove that this happened?  Just deny that this person paid you to instruct them, as long as they do the same how could it be proven otherwise?  It's not illegal to teach someone to ski, only to be paid for it.



It would be hard to prove, I totally understand that.  If you're able to go underground you'd more than likely be a very good instructor with a lot of years of experience.  PSIA examiners (almost every medium sized mountain has at least 1 on their staff) would know you on a first-name basis, as would other Level III certed instructors.  So I think eventually you'd get spotted unless you keep going to small, obscure mountains (places clients with more $$$ than Jesus Christ himself could imagine would not visit).  Then, even if they can't criminally convict you on theft of services, word would certainly get out about what you're doing- within PSIA and at your home mountain.  I think you could get away with it for a while, but not forever.  If you're so good that your client is paying for your ticket, your travel, your lunch, and your services you're likely going to be one of the top skiers on the hill any given day, and that means a lot of eyes on you.  

Also, the top tier instructors get their name out there by word of mouth.  So asking your clients not to say anything about your instruction would be shooting yourself in the foot in the long run.


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## ss20 (Mar 11, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Sorry...I don't understand why "price" is somehow a determining factor. The value (per VT law) is only a factor in the potential punishment. There's no minimum value in the law.
> 
> I've read through 4 pages of that thread so far and don't see any actual "legal" reason why/how ski areas can have exclusive rights on instructing.



I understand your first point.  It's blurry.  It'd be more likely a resort enforces someone taking roughly $1,000 in revenue from them than $100 in lift ticket theft.  

The legal reason for outside instruction not being allowed... is that the resorts have the power to do that as @ThatGuy said.  Same reason why some resorts are cracking down on uphill travel.... they can.  Same reason why Eagle Point prosecuted the now-infamous "powder poachers".... they can.  Same reason why MRG, Deer Valley, and Alta don't allow snowboards... they can.  They are private companies.  I can't give you a better than answer than that.


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## cdskier (Mar 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I understand your first point.  It's blurry.  It'd be more likely a resort enforces someone taking roughly $1,000 in revenue from them than $100 in lift ticket theft.
> 
> The legal reason for outside instruction not being allowed... is that the resorts have the power to do that as @ThatGuy said.  Same reason why some resorts are cracking down on uphill travel.... they can.  Same reason why Eagle Point prosecuted the now-infamous "powder poachers".... they can.  Same reason why MRG, Deer Valley, and Alta don't allow snowboards... they can.  They are private companies.  I can't give you a better than answer than that.



"They can" sounds like a pretty weak legal argument. Has this actually been proven (i.e. has someone actually been charged and convicted of this)? Or is this one of those things where the "threat" of what "they can" do is considered enough of a deterrent and there's no actual legal precedent for it having been successfully been done? 

I'd also argue that some of your other "they can" examples are a bit different. Not allowing snowboarding isn't something that would result in a crime being charged if someone showed up with a snowboard. The Eagle Point example was on private property, so trespassing is valid in that case.

I've never hired an outside instructor or ever even thought of doing this. I'm just legitimately interested in "how" this is actually "theft of services" as people always claim. VT's "theft of services" statute defines it as "A person who purposely obtains services that he or she knows are available only for compensation, by deception or threat, or by false token or other means to avoid payment for the service". I just don't know that hiring a random person to instruct you privately really falls under this definition. That said, I totally get the reasons why an instructor wouldn't want to take the risk of doing it privately (liability, insurance, risk of losing employment or PSIA membership). I just question the whole "theft of services" argument itself.


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## gittist (Mar 11, 2022)

legal monopoly, like doctors, lawyers....protecting market share.   https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/13/057/02582  is the full text of the above reference. Sounds more like to me it's theft of services if you get a lesson and then high tail it.


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## Smellytele (Mar 11, 2022)

Psia is a fuckin joke.


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## 2Planker (Mar 12, 2022)

My BIL has been a good, very requested instructor for many years.  One day someone offers him $2K for 5 days of lessons for 2 good 7&9yo kids.
 He had a ball. Took them off trail, glades, lunch at the best places ($$ on them). Big Fat Tip w/ a "same thing next year OK"


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## doublediamond (Mar 13, 2022)

How is this company so shit at communication? Twitter says Mt Snow open 8-4. Lift report says 9-5.


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## pinion247 (Mar 13, 2022)

Ha. Maybe they forgot to adjust the website for Daylight Savings.


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## catskillman (Mar 13, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> How is this company so shit at communication? Twitter says Mt Snow open 8-4. Lift report says 9-5.


Hunter's site had yesterday's weather report up at 10am.  Expecting 6-10 inches of snow. 

There are so many broken things...I guess since they are so low staffed you don't have to do your job.  And it works in their favor if folks saw that and bought a ticket for today and/or tomorrow to getting freshies....


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## machski (Mar 13, 2022)

Vail should follow in Atlantic Aviation's footsteps in Aspen:








						Atlantic Aviation makes a grand statement to staff
					

Atlantic Aviation in Aspen is giving all of its full-time employees a monthly housing allowance of $1,000 so they can keep up with the high cost of living in the Roaring Fork Valley.




					www.aspentimes.com


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## drjeff (Mar 13, 2022)

Fan guns running on parts of Carinthia and the main face right now.... Seems like Vail is going to see if it can make it to April 24th at Mount Snow if mother nature gives a little help


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## pinion247 (Mar 13, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Fan guns running on parts of Carinthia and the main face right now.... Seems like Vail is going to see if it can make it to April 24th at Mount Snow if mother nature gives a little help


I’ll be there weekend of April 2nd. Had actually given up all hope of skiing but this is a promising development. 

Skiing Wildcat all year I’ve forgotten what a fan gun looks like . Skiing Cranmore today and their base is pretty solid and might last into April if they are willing to stay open. Wildcat might be fun today but too windy to check it out with the kids in tow.


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## doublediamond (Mar 13, 2022)

The snow stake on the Outpost tower at the top reads less than a foot. I’ve never seen it that low.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 13, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> I’ll be there weekend of April 2nd. Had actually given up all hope of skiing but this is a promising development.
> 
> Skiing Wildcat all year I’ve forgotten what a fan gun looks like . Skiing Cranmore today and their base is pretty solid and might last into April if they are willing to stay open. Wildcat might be fun today but too windy to check it out with the kids in tow.


Would love to see Cranmore stay open later than Wildcat.


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## snoseek (Mar 13, 2022)

I love how they come out with some publicity about extending their season at several of their resorts around the country and again nh can get fucked we will be lucky to make their target date with how little snowmaking has happened. I'm not driving to mount snow. 
It shoulda been wildcat. It should always be wildcat.


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## drjeff (Mar 13, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> The snow stake on the Outpost tower at the top reads less than a foot. I’ve never seen it that low.


With the new lifts going in next season, and the want/need to start the demo of the old lifts and that it's easier to transport old towers over snow, my hunch is that the Northface was never going to be in the mix for late season this year, as the main face may close in a few weeks, and before Carinthia does, as there will likely be a bunch of heavy equipment in operation there. And financially it just doesn't make sense to operate 2 separate base areas late season.

It is what it is this year, and if it means 2 new lifts next season, as much as I will miss April (who knows when the Northface will exactly close this season...) bumps on the Northface this season, in the bigger scheme of things it will be worth it


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## eatskisleep (Mar 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I love how they come out with some publicity about extending their season at several of their resorts around the country and again nh can get fucked we will be lucky to make their target date with how little snowmaking has happened. I'm not driving to mount snow.
> It shoulda been wildcat. It should always be wildcat.


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## machski (Mar 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> With the new lifts going in next season, and the want/need to start the demo of the old lifts and that it's easier to transport old towers over snow, my hunch is that the Northface was never going to be in the mix for late season this year, as the main face may close in a few weeks, and before Carinthia does, as there will likely be a bunch of heavy equipment in operation there. And financially it just doesn't make sense to operate 2 separate base areas late season.
> 
> It is what it is this year, and if it means 2 new lifts next season, as much as I will miss April (who knows when the Northface will exactly close this season...) bumps on the Northface this season, in the bigger scheme of things it will be worth it


Unless the bigger scheme is to sell more passes next season to cover new lift costs, then they don't push the seasons any longer.  Would that still be worth this season as is?


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## drjeff (Mar 14, 2022)

machski said:


> Unless the bigger scheme is to sell more passes next season to cover new lift costs, then they don't push the seasons any longer.  Would that still be worth this season as is?



Mount Snow atleast under the last 3 seasons of Vail ownership, the season length frankly hasn't been much different, if at all, than it was under Peak.

2 years ago, well, everyone shutdown mid March because of COVID. 

Last year, they pushed it and went for the 3rd week of April and easily could of closed up after the 2nd weekend of April, but they chose to aggressively go for it, and that last weekend at Carithina only, even with a surprise 6" or so snowstorm that Friday night, was defeinyely an aggressive call to stay open.

This year, they're trying to make it to April 24th. They've made about as much snow as they ever have as I can recall (with the exception of the half pipe and the choice to keep Inferno a featureless trail and not build the HUGE features they used to on it, although from being on the bottom of Inferno this past weekend for an event, they have probably close to 10 feet of base at the bottom of it, and a solid 3 to 4 foot deep base along if not all, than the majority of the trail so it's not like they didn't make a bunch of snow there either), so if they don't make it to April 24th, it's going to be more on Mother Nature than the effort they put into snowmaking as it sure seems like they have enough snow down on the trails there right now to make late April, as long as mother nature is relatively "normal"

So if we exclude the Covid season, Vail has chosen last season and now apparently this season to operate Mount Snow in a late season way that is how the mountain has been traditionally operated (a closing date typically in the 2nd or 3rd week of April). I don't necesarily pay as much attention as to what trails and lifts are spinning closing weekend as that has varied in many seasons, but more attention to what week of April the season goes to.

Will that be the case in the future, especially with a new GM coming in next season? I guess time will tell. The reality is though that thusfar, even if it certainly hasn't been the case with most of their other Eastern properties, Vail seems to be operating Mount Snow with respect to typical season length, pretty much like the resort was operated before Vail acquired them


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The reality is though that thusfar, even if it certainly hasn't been the case with most of their other Eastern properties, Vail seems to be operating Mount Snow with respect to typical season length, pretty much like the resort was operated before Vail acquired them



Other than being more crowded, the same is true for the southcentral PA mountains.  Yes there were some concessions to "cheaper" products, but that is a corporate wide decision.  As far as operations go, I can't complain.  Hell they mad snow on March 12th, which is the latest anyone can recall in the past 25 years.  Including the 30 year mountain manager! 

From afar it sucks with how they are treating the NH properties.  I had hoped to go visit those properties, but not until the ship is righted.  Hopefully vail does that or just divests in them.   Its not good for their brand to operate them so poorly, whether they realize that or not...


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## elks (Mar 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Other than being more crowded, the same is true for the southcentral PA mountains.  Yes there were some concessions to "cheaper" products, but that is a corporate wide decision.  As far as operations go, I can't complain.  Hell they mad snow on March 12th, which is the latest anyone can recall in the past 25 years.  Including the 30 year mountain manager!
> 
> From afar it sucks with how they are treating the NH properties.  I had hoped to go visit those properties, but not until the ship is righted.  Hopefully vail does that or just divests in them.   Its not good for their brand to operate them so poorly, whether they realize that or not...


Same at Crotched, they've blown snow later than most years, but weather patterns have certainly made it difficult. Thus far in March, there hasn't been a single day with consistent daytime temps below freezing. 60% of total days have been over 40F and almost 30% of days above 50F with one day reaching 64F. And the 7 day outlook isn't much better with 3 days forecasted in the mid-forties, 4 days in the fifties, one day in the mid-sixties and only one night below freezing.


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## snoseek (Mar 14, 2022)

killwhat said:


> Same at Crotched, they've blown snow later than most years, but weather patterns have certainly made it difficult. Thus far in March, there hasn't been a single day with consistent daytime temps below freezing. 60% of total days have been over 40F and almost 30% of days above 50F with one day reaching 64F. And the 7 day outlook isn't much better with 3 days forecasted in the mid-forties, 4 days in the fifties, one day in the mid-sixties and only one night below freezing.


The problem is they needed to lay it thick as early as possible and not count on temps but they blew that window months back. I'm actually almost as pissed about crotched operations as wildcat. The place is such an efficient easy to handle local hill. 

Any shred of me reupping my epic or giving vail a dime are gone. If they addressed the abysmal nh operations and pit forward a plan to improve then alot of people would probably roll the dice but I already made that mistake once I'll spend the extra for a better overall experience. Sunapee ran pretty ok for the most part imo but it's just too congested.


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## chuckstah (Mar 14, 2022)

As Dr Jeff said, operations at Mt Snow were pretty typical, but as an NH resident I don't want to go there with any regularity.
As far as Crotched the operations were abysmal. Hardly any snowmaking, lifts not running (and lying about why Valley didn't run for much of the season), and the big one... season length. Opening on 12/26 for 5 days a week is not acceptable. IF they make 3/27 it will be a 68 day season, 63 if they close this Sunday, 3/20, which is the unverifiable  rumor. Complete Epic Fail.


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## snoseek (Mar 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> As Dr Jeff said, operations at Mt Snow were pretty typical, but as an NH resident I don't want to go there with any regularity.
> As far as Crotched the operations were abysmal. Hardly any snowmaking, lifts not running (and lying about why Valley didn't run for much of the season), and the big one... season length. Opening on 12/26 for 5 days a week is not acceptable. IF they make 3/27 it will be a 68 day season, 63 if they close this Sunday, 3/20, which is the unverifiable  rumor. Complete Epic Fail.


I'm cannon, indy add on and either gunstock or ragged next year. Having a close mellow little midweek hill like crotched is awesome and i bummed to lose that but I just can't be part of that. This is the single best thing for the owners of ragged and pats...they're gonna clean up lol good for them.

Edit- if they close mid March that's gotta be rock bottom right? Are we there yet?


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## chuckstah (Mar 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm cannon, indy add on and either gunstock or ragged next year. Having a close mellow little midweek hill like crotched is awesome and i bummed to lose that but I just can't be part of that. This is the single best thing for the owners of ragged and pats...they're gonna clean up lol good for them.
> 
> Edit- if they close mid March that's gotta be rock bottom right? Are we there yet?


This has to be Rock bottom... unless they close the place. Not sure what to do next season, but Indy will definitely be in the mix again. I really wish Boyne or Ikon had a local option for those of us in Southern NH.


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## snoseek (Mar 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> This has to be Rock bottom... unless they close the place. Not sure what to do next season, but Indy will definitely be in the mix again. I really wish Boyne or Ikon had a local option for those of us in Southern NH.


I miss temple mtn.


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## machski (Mar 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> This has to be Rock bottom... unless they close the place. Not sure what to do next season, but Indy will definitely be in the mix again. I really wish Boyne or Ikon had a local option for those of us in Southern NH.


I wonder if Boyne would snatch it if Vail closed/sold it.  They wouldn't have to fret about crowing Crotched since it was already Epic like they are with Shawnee.  Be a perfect fit for NEP immediately.

As to Sunapee, I wouldn't give them a pass, with the parked out days by 0900 and let's not forget, they go it open early December.  But then had a good two week stretch where they could have blown many of those days and expanded the terrain much faster but no.  Okemo was short staffed so we're sending the Sunapee snowmakers over there and NH folks will have to make do on a trail and a half TTB.


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## thebigo (Mar 14, 2022)

Not a chance Vail is going to let their competition take over crotched. Boston has to be one of the largest ski markets in the country and Vail surely understands their near mega-pass monopoly. 

Best chance for Boyne to add a mountain for the southern nh crowd would be a privatization of gunstock, no idea if this would be a good thing but has been in the news. Other option would be massive investment in a defunct/marginal area: whaleback and moose come to mind; both would awesome with a crotched sized rebirth but boyne has shown a preference for established areas. 

We are going Ragged and Boyne Bronze next year, passes compliment each other well. Doesnt hurt that I found a 15 year old boyne rewards account with a few hundred dollars of rewards, also my youngest sneaks onto the $30 pass at both, she will easily be under $1/day next year.


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## snoseek (Mar 14, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Not a chance Vail is going to let their competition take over crotched. Boston has to be one of the largest ski markets in the country and Vail surely understands their near mega-pass monopoly.
> 
> Best chance for Boyne to add a mountain for the southern nh crowd would be a privatization of gunstock, no idea if this would be a good thing but has been in the news. Other option would be massive investment in a defunct/marginal area: whaleback and moose come to mind; both would awesome with a crotched sized rebirth but boyne has shown a preference for established areas.
> 
> We are going Ragged and Boyne Bronze next year, passes compliment each other well. Doesnt hurt that I found a 15 year old boyne rewards account with a few hundred dollars of rewards, also my youngest sneaks onto the $30 pass at both, she will easily be under $1/day next year.


Privatizing gunstock would bum me out!

Man never thought about the moose mtn thing. That place sits in a prime location and has some decent real estate to work with. I used to ski there as a kid it wasn't half bad.


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## Edd (Mar 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Privatizing gunstock would bum me out!
> 
> Theoretically possible. Much depends on the elections for Belknap County Delegation later this year. That will influence who sits on the Gunstock Area Commission. The expansion plans they announced are not happening until that gets sorted one way or the other.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2022)

I would put the expansion plans at Gunstock well on the back burner.  They don't really need the terrain.

Top 2 priorities for them should be expansion of the Stockade Lodge and then adding a second carpet that starts as close as possible to the lodges.  The second should be number 1 and it's not something people really think about until they try and teach toddlers how to ski.  It is an absolutely brutal walk for parents with young kids to get to their carpet today.  And 1 carpet isn't enough for the traffic they get on weekends.  I can't tell you how many times I saw tearful kids lying on the ground screaming at their parents protesting that walk.  It's just rough on a 3 year old in ski boots.  I'd get rid of a couple lanes of tubing to figure out a way to put in a lower carpet going from the Historic lodge up towards the Penny Quad and other carpet.  

Stockade Lodge would be great if it was 50% bigger with a proper bar. 

Do those first.  Add snowmaking to Hot Shot and Upper Ramrod next to add more consistent variety off the summit.  As great as they ski on natural snow, that's like 3 weeks of the season.  So, it's pretty pointless. 

Following those improvements replace Tiger and Ramrod chairs with a HSQ like is on the master plan. 

I'd do all that first before any of the additional terrain expansion.  Perfect what they have before anything else.


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## elks (Mar 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> As Dr Jeff said, operations at Mt Snow were pretty typical, but as an NH resident I don't want to go there with any regularity.
> As far as Crotched the operations were abysmal. Hardly any snowmaking, lifts not running (and lying about why Valley didn't run for much of the season), and the big one... season length. Opening on 12/26 for 5 days a week is not acceptable. IF they make 3/27 it will be a 68 day season, 63 if they close this Sunday, 3/20, which is the unverifiable  rumor. Complete Epic Fail.


The early season was rough for sure, but it's been running pretty smoothly lately and crowding has been a non-issue for weeks now. The first 3 weekends in January were super busy, but since then it's been similar to prior years. Even President's Day weekend was low crowds. Did one week day during Mass vacation and it was pretty quiet. Evening skiing was completely empty outside of some race training. I'm curious to see how they learn from this season's slow start and correct for next year. They just announced a big additional investment in employees: https://townlift.com/2022/03/vail-resorts-announces-20-per-hour-starting-wage-next-season/


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## RichT (Mar 14, 2022)

We all know that Mt snow and Stowe are Vail's golden Mtns in the east. The rest of us.............................go shit in your hat, so there's that.


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## machski (Mar 14, 2022)

RichT said:


> We all know that Mt snow and Stowe are Vail's golden Mtns in the east. The rest of us.............................go shit in your hat, so there's that.


Actually, when they bought the Mueller's out (Triple Peaks) prior to Peak, they did so for Okemo and Sunapee (they already had Stowe).  Created Butte was an afterthought.  I would say same with Peaks, the NH areas especially Crotched and Wildcat we're afterthoughts and tag along a for what they really wanted (PA and Midwest markets plus Mt. Snow).  Attitash they are investing in fairly quickly after acquiring even if at a slower pace than desired.  But they left WC and Crotched out to dry this year.  Would they really miss Crotched?  I don't think so.


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## 2Planker (Mar 14, 2022)

machski said:


> Actually, when they bought the Mueller's out (Triple Peaks) prior to Peak, they did so for Okemo and Sunapee (they already had Stowe).  Created Butte was an afterthought.  I would say same with Peaks, the NH areas especially Crotched and Wildcat we're afterthoughts and tag along a for what they really wanted (PA and Midwest markets plus Mt. Snow).  Attitash they are investing in fairly quickly after acquiring even if at a slower pace than desired.  But they left WC and Crotched out to dry this year.  Would they really miss Crotched?  I don't think so.


Maybe so, But they had a bona fide offer on the table for Wildcat. Could have easily let it go.
Vail has done absolutely  NOTHING in the way of improvements, and have also
blown off much of the previously deferred maintenance.
Corporate AHoles who who only care about the bottom line.

On the upside - BW was stellar this past weekend.  They know "last open in NH" is pretty much their game to loose.


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## chuckstah (Mar 14, 2022)

killwhat said:


> The early season was rough for sure, but it's been running pretty smoothly lately and crowding has been a non-issue for weeks now. The first 3 weekends in January were super busy, but since then it's been similar to prior years. Even President's Day weekend was low crowds. Did one week day during Mass vacation and it was pretty quiet. Evening skiing was completely empty outside of some race training. I'm curious to see how they learn from this season's slow start and correct for next year. They just announced a big additional investment in employees: https://townlift.com/2022/03/vail-resorts-announces-20-per-hour-starting-wage-next-season/


I like Crotched and ski it every week. Vail has ruined the vibe. Great employees who really care but Vail has them handcuffed. They didn't make snow on many occasions, even when the pond was full. Fail. Not to mention closing Monday and Tuesday, canceling midnight madness, night skiing cut back to 3 nights, lifts not running, poor maintenance. The list goes on. I will agree crowding has not been an issue when I ski anyway (midweek), but there were midweek days I had to leave and go elsewhere due to not running lifts, and lying saying they were "waiting on a part" for half the season. I could go on..... but I'm done.


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## urungus (Mar 14, 2022)

$20 minimum wage next year at all Vail resorts









						Letter to Employees: A New Direction | MarketScreener
					

Team,                I have been in my new role as CEO of Vail Resorts for just over 100 days, and the challenges we have faced together this season have given me an opportunity to reflect on... | December 31,  2022



					www.marketscreener.com
				




Letter to Employees: A New Direction​03/14/2022 | 04:28pm EDT

Team,
I have been in my new role as CEO of Vail Resorts for just over 100 days, and the challenges we have faced together this season have given me an opportunity to reflect on what is important, and what our company must focus on as we move forward. Today, I want to share some of my thoughts, and important news for our company.
One of my biggest takeaways from these past 100 days is the *importance of each of you - our team*. We have a mission that we all know and love: _Experience of a Lifetime_. You are the core of this mission. We cannot create an _Experience of a Lifetime_for our guests without first creating an Experience of a Lifetime for you - unfortunately, we have fallen short on that.
Addressing this requires a pivotal shift in our company's direction with a new strategic focus on all of you - year-round and seasonal, hourly and salaried, mountain resorts and corporate. We are focused on providing each of you the resources and support you need to have an _Experience of a Lifetime_, and staying out front by making the necessary investments in you.
*Today, we are taking some important first steps in this new direction with an incremental annual $175 million investment in our employees, which includes the following: *

*New $20 Per Hour Minimum Wage for All Employees at all 37 North American Mountain Resorts for the 2022/23 Winter Season* and increases for Hourly Employees with Compression Adjustments based on Career Stage and Leadership Differentials*
To deliver on our mission, we must invest in you and your experience with our company - that starts with competitive compensation.
New $20 per hour minimum wage at all 37 North American mountain resorts and corporate.
New $21 per hour minimum for Patrol, Maintenance Technicians and Certified Commercial Vehicle Drivers.
New CAD $20 per hour minimum wage at Whistler Blackcomb, from current CAD $15.20.
Guaranteed minimum of $20 per hour for tipped roles.
Hourly employee wages will increase with compression adjustments based on leadership and career stage differentials.
This represents an average wage increase of nearly 30% across hourly employees in North America

*New Seasonal Frontline Leadership Development*
Our company is passionate about leadership development. Starting next winter, we will be launching new Seasonal Frontline Leadership Development programming. *If you come for a season, we want you to have the opportunity to build a career.* One of the benefits of being a part of the Vail Resorts family is that our employees have the opportunity to grow within their mountain resort, or move across our mountain resorts and company for new opportunities. You might start in Lift Operations like Chris Sorensen, and grow to become the GM of Keystone Ski Resort, or you might be like Beth Howard, starting as an hourly intern in F&B and then growing to become the COO of Vail Mountain. In the past two years, over 600 employees have moved from one mountain resort to another for new career growth opportunities. My goal is to create many more of these opportunities for you. Leadership development is a passion of mine and I look forward to sharing more with you as we head into next season.
*New 40% Employee Discount at all Vail Resorts Retail for the 22/23 Winter Season *
We are a mountain company with team members who are passionate about enjoying the outdoors every season of the year. While we know wages are the top priority, we also want to make it easier for our employees to enjoy our core business - the outdoors. *Starting this fall, all employees will get a discount of 40% off retail MSRP for all gear at all Vail Resorts Retail locations,* including Vail Resorts' partner branded stores such as Helly Hansen, Patagonia, Burton, The North Face, Salomon, Smartwool, and others. This new benefit is in addition to the free season passes for you and dependents; discounts on food and beverage; discounts on lodging; discounts on Helly Hansen; ski and ride school benefits; access to health insurance, sick pay and free mental health resources; and more. ski and ride school benefits; access to health insurance, sick pay and free mental health resources; and more.
*Our Commitment to Affordable Employee Housing in Our Mountain Communities*
Affordable housing in our mountain communities is essential for so many of our employees. We know this has become harder for you as those mountain communities have grown. *We plan to aggressively pursue building new affordable housing on the land we own, and pursue company leases in existing affordable housing developments, so we can make housing more accessible and affordable for our employees*. Our company currently provides about 7,000 affordable housing beds across all our mountain resorts, and GTLC, and we ensure that the rental rates remain affordable for our employees. We plan to expand affordable housing further. This is not easy to do. It requires mountain communities to be fully committed to affordable housing, and the approvals needed to allow us to build on the land we own. While we understand that some of our mountain communities have concerns about new developments, we believe it's time for us, and our communities, to make affordable housing a top priority and accelerate the processes to ensure we collectively make progress. We are actively working on several key projects to achieve this, and look forward to sharing more on this soon.
*A New $4 Million Investment in HR*
I would like to express my gratitude for our HR team, as they navigated through many challenges this season related to staffing and the COVID-19 Omicron acceleration in December. Unfortunately, those challenges meant that your experience with payroll and HR support was not what we wanted it to be - or what you deserve. It is our responsibility to provide you with the support you need. To make that possible we are taking additional steps to enable the HR team to better serve you. *We are investing an additional $4 million per year in HR immediately.* This will add 66 more people to the central People Connect and Payroll teams. This represents an almost 50% increase in central HR Services staff, dedicated to the resorts in each region, with the goal to provide you with faster, more direct support in hiring, onboarding, payroll and case management, and a more personalized experience. We are also committed to initiating the work to upgrade HR technology systems and simplifying HR processes.
*New Flexible Remote Work for our Corporate Office*
It is hard to believe that it has been two years, almost to the day, since we closed our Broomfield office due to the pandemic. I miss seeing all of you in person every day. I also recognize that during this time, we have proven that we can be effective working remotely. Today, we are announcing a significant change in how we will return to the office - Flexible Remote Work. *When our Broomfield office reopens on May 16, corporate employees will not be required to work in the office a specific number of days, nor need to be based in Colorado.* This allows corporate employees to live and work in any of the states in which Vail Resorts currently operates.** While this provides the flexibility many of you have asked for, I also know that personal connection is important to you, as it is for me. I am committed to fostering a strong culture - in person and virtually. More details on these engagement plans will be shared ahead of May.
*Merit Increase for Salaried Employees *
To reflect the changing dynamics in today's labor market, *we are doubling our merit increases for year-end, from an average of 3% to an average of 6%,*effective October 2022 for salaried employees. Each team member's merit will continue to be differentiated based on their performance. We will continue to assess market compensation to determine further adjustments as appropriate.
Our mission of _Experience of a Lifetime_*must start with you. *These announcements are the *first steps in a new direction for Vail Resorts*. Does this solve every concern and piece of feedback you have shared over the past 100 Days? No, but I hope they demonstrate our commitment to continued improvements and progress.
You have all worked tirelessly to welcome all skiers and riders back to the mountains this season, despite the challenges. I want to thank each of you for your passion and commitment to our mountains, our company, and our guests.
You will have an opportunity to discuss these changes in more detail in upcoming Town Hall meetings with your leaders in late March and early April.
Kirsten


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## elks (Mar 14, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> I like Crotched and ski it every week. Vail has ruined the vibe. Great employees who really care but Vail has them handcuffed. They didn't make snow on many occasions, even when the pond was full. Fail. Not to mention closing Monday and Tuesday, canceling midnight madness, night skiing cut back to 3 nights, lifts not running, poor maintenance. The list goes on. I will agree crowding has not been an issue when I ski anyway (midweek), but there were midweek days I had to leave and go elsewhere due to not running lifts, and lying saying they were "waiting on a part" for half the season. I could go on..... but I'm done.



Employee and lift problems were a real problem early on in the season, no doubt, but as they hired and brought in folks from Okemo, Sunapee, and Western resorts to help, it's been a lot more consistent since late January. They were aggressively blowing snow in late February (later than any recent season), but then the weather really ruined the opportunities since March 1. It will be interesting to see how they handle the next season after the challenges of this early season. That to me is the real test.


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## gittist (Mar 14, 2022)

Soooo will they finance the new wages with more EPIC pass sales or jack the price up? I guess we'll find out in the new few weeks. I'm surprised they haven't put next year's passes on sale yet.


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## kendo (Mar 14, 2022)

urungus said:


> $20 minimum wage next year at all Vail resorts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Kirsten getting ahead of the 3/22 investors conference.  Must watch...


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## snoseek (Mar 14, 2022)

urungus said:


> $20 minimum wage next year at all Vail resorts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow...damn this solves alot of problems. Pair that with a reasonable commitment to operate early and all season and I'm potentially giving them money after a one year break.


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## doublediamond (Mar 14, 2022)

I’ll believe it when I read reports from employees or read the hiring ads next fall. Vail was claiming they instituted a $15/hr minimum for this season but they were offering $14 in NH and a reported $12 in PA.


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## ss20 (Mar 14, 2022)

urungus said:


> *New $20 Per Hour Minimum Wage for All Employees at all 37 North American Mountain Resorts for the 2022/23 Winter Season* and increases for Hourly Employees with Compression Adjustments based on Career Stage and Leadership Differentials*
> To deliver on our mission, we must invest in you and your experience with our company - that starts with competitive compensation.
> New $20 per hour minimum wage at all 37 North American mountain resorts and corporate.
> New $21 per hour minimum for Patrol, Maintenance Technicians and Certified Commercial Vehicle Drivers.
> ...



$20/hr to run a lift is solid.  $21/hr with your emt cert, throwing avi bombs, and savings people's lives is not.  Same with driving a CDL vehicle, $21 is little.  

Essentially the pay for "general labor" at the resort is great- that's what's needed to attract the frontline workers to flip the burgers, scan the tickets, and make the snow.  $21 for the more skilled labor is still pretty shitty.  The skilled mechanic who's pre-op checking the lifts that carry 20,000 people a day up the hill 100ft in the air is still underpaid at $21.  I think in general this will fix many of the visual issues- like lifts not being ran and the now infamous "Wildcat Snowmaker" joke.  I think it should staff those guest-visible jobs well.  Still curious about a dearth of talent in mid-upper local management.  

Overall I'm VERY suspicious.  Reduced EPIC pass prices.  Energy prices skyrocketing.  Non-premier resorts ran with a shoestring budget.  Share price trading at its 52wk low.  Where they gonna find and additional $5/hr for 80% of their workforce?  Don't get me wrong, this is a GREAT move.  But "something else" in their empire has to get cut to pay for this... and probably "a lot" of something else.  


This sets a precedent for other resorts to set wage increases as well.  As they should.


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## ss20 (Mar 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wow...damn this solves alot of problems. Pair that with a reasonable commitment to operate early and all season and I'm potentially giving them money after a one year break.



On paper it looks great.  In reality I'm not holding my breath.  

If they can hit those target dates, and start treating their employees right, yeah... this will be a huge win.  I don't see a path how they can do it, but I'd LOVE to see it, don't get me wrong.


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## chuckstah (Mar 14, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> I’ll believe it when I read reports from employees or read the hiring ads next fall. Vail was claiming they instituted a $15/hr minimum for this season but they were offering $14 in NH and a reported $12 in PA.


Yep, that was complete bullshit. They only offered $15 at resorts they cared about. Or in their words "destination resorts". Who the fuck made that decision??  Screw New Hampshire....


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## Edd (Mar 15, 2022)

Vail: We thought we were doing fine with HR, but it turns out we should hire another 66 employees to cover HR tasks.

That’s quite a miscalculation.


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 15, 2022)

We shall see...its a start..


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## elks (Mar 15, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> I’ll believe it when I read reports from employees or read the hiring ads next fall. Vail was claiming they instituted a $15/hr minimum for this season but they were offering $14 in NH and a reported $12 in PA.


That was clearly communicated to NH employees and compared to what Peaks was paying was more than a 50% increase in pay. Add this new raise and a ski instructor or liftie is now making well over 150% more in starting pay compared to Peaks.


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## snoseek (Mar 15, 2022)

I'm willing to bet this solves 80 percent of the problems in nh. Positions will be filled and they may even get some veterans back. It really is all about the money.


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## elks (Mar 15, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm willing to bet this solves 80 percent of the problems in nh. Positions will be filled and they may even get some veterans back. It really is all about the money.


When you think of the other substantial benefits Vail employees get beyond this new starting pay rate that's going to put stress on other areas to compete for labor. I agree that it will likely help with staffing issues.


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## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2022)

Killwhat is a vail mole.


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## elks (Mar 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Killwhat is a vail mole.


LOL. As I said before I work (happily and more so under Vail than Peaks management) in ski instruction for Crotched.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

killwhat said:


> When you think of the other substantial benefits Vail employees get beyond this new starting pay rate that's going to put stress on other areas to compete for labor. I agree that it will likely help with staffing issues.



The next likely operational challenge that Vail will likely have to address at somepoint, is while for many within the company who have been there for a while and worked their way up a bit, there is a very good set of pathways for those who aspire to make the ski industry their full time career, and that certainly can be a great thing.  On the flipside, especially with the acquistion of the Peak properties, and now it seems with the Seven Springs area resorts as well, there certainly is a wealth of area specific institutional knowledge, and often the staff trust and "loyalty" that various managers have/had, that Vail chose to let go, and then replace with someone they (Vail) were looking to step up into their 1st "big" role, and the reality that giving someone the opportunity at their 1st "big" role within the company, where in many cases they had never even been to that resort prior to being given that role, may have been to aggressive a stance on the employee development and promotions side of things, especially in the times of transition that Vail coming in brings.

In hindsight, I would hope that the folks in the boardroom out in Broomfield, may get that putting someone into a position where they both have to "learn" the various nuances of a resort as well as "learn" what being a GM is like at the same time, even if COVID issues weren't in play as well, may of been a bit too much and had a negative effect on the resort experience for both guests and employees.

It will be interesting to see what things are like say a year from now, especially if the '22-'23 season can operate even more "normally" than the '21-'22 season has


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## snoseek (Mar 15, 2022)

killwhat said:


> LOL. As I said before I work (happily and more so under Vail than Peaks management) in ski instruction for Crotched.


I worked for vail out west for quite a few years and aside from the shit pay I had good bosses until the end and a super good pm schedule. It wasn't a horrible job although the overtime could be a bit much during peak times. I wonder what my time is worth to them now....


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 15, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wow...damn this solves alot of problems. Pair that with a reasonable commitment to operate early and all season and I'm potentially giving them money after a one year break.



lol you're cute.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

New GM for Mount Snow announced today.

Sounds like he could be a very good fit for the mountain based on his career experience and the needs of Mount Snow, especially ahead of a big Summer of lift installations that will likely change how traffic flow around the mountain!

"
*Brian Suhadolc*, currently Vice President of Mountain Operations at Vail Mountain, will be the next General Manager of *Mount Snow* in Vermont. Brian will succeed Tracy Bartels who was recently appointed as Vice President of Maintenance, Planning & Projects effective April 1. Brian will continue in his role at Vail Mountain until a transition plan unfolds later in the spring.  
Brian has had a long history in the ski industry, leading operations for Vail Mountain since 2020 and preceded by a progression through multiple leadership roles over 28 years at Park City Mountain. During his time at Park City, Brian played a critical role in executing the $50 million capital project to connect Park City Mountain Resort and Canyons Resort, High Meadow Park and the Over and Out lift. In his tenure at Vail, Brian was instrumental in leading the optimization of the recent multi-million dollar snowmaking investment to result in the earliest opening in the history of Vail Mountain. Brian is one of the strongest leaders across our mountains having served as the enterprise operations leader of the Mountain Operations Leadership Team (MOLT) and the leader of the Operational Reliability workstream for the Lift Optimization Project to achieve dramatic improvements in lift capacity all across the Company. Brian has been a valued member of Vail Mountain Senior Leadership Team and has helped develop countless new leaders throughout his tenure at Vail, Park City and his enterprise leadership roles.   
Brian is a New Jersey native and excited to return to the Northeast with his wife where skiing began for him in his youth."


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## ThatGuy (Mar 15, 2022)

Lets hope it works out for the mountain.
Love or hate Vail if you ski at Mount Snow there will be two new, much needed lifts that we will be riding for a long time to come.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 15, 2022)

I think constantly shuffling the deck on leadership positions with the company is just as bad as line level staffing problems.  Consistent leadership matters


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 15, 2022)

yeah it seems like they are constantly moving people around.   When vail took over Roundtop the hired a new GM.  He was a local guy who previously ran the biggest Snowtime resort Whitetail.  He did a great job, but was just recently "promoted" to take over all 3 of the 7 Springs resorts.  I suspect/hope he'll have "mountain specific" managers as 7 Springs is a huge resort with a hotel, and numerous resorty amenities, hidden valley not quite as large, but has a bunch of similar amenities.   If vail things he's going to efficiently run 3 ski resorts then they are as dumb as the 310 pages of discussion have made them seem.  I just don't understand not wanting to keep the folks running these mountains in their position at least for the first year or 2 before "installing" one of their corporate plants.  

I'm hopeful the new Roundtop GM will continue to let the mountain manager (who has 25+ years of experience) run the mountain as it needs to be.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Lets hope it works out for the mountain.
> Love or hate Vail if you ski at Mount Snow there will be two new, much needed lifts that we will be riding for a long time to come.



Purely biased for my home mountain, but I am excited to be getting a GM who is a big time mtn ops guy, from some BIG resort past jobs and projects at those resorts, coming in at a time when plenty of mtn ops projects will be happening


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## Wolfman (Mar 15, 2022)

Well, I've worked for vail in NH for 2 seasons now and in that time my hourly went from 10 to 16, and I hear from the guys who worked for Peak the money is significantly better now than it was then. I'm pretty sure the 20/hr figure is legit, and I hope it attracts some real staff numbers. That could start to turn things around I'd think.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 15, 2022)

That is a good perspective Dr J.   Again these new Vail folks from the west need to trust the local knowledge, if they haven't run it all off.   They need to understand that operating a resort in the east has its own challenges and expectations than a destination resort in the west.


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## 2Planker (Mar 15, 2022)

Attitash


drjeff said:


> Purely biased for my home mountain, but I am excited to be getting a GM who is a big time mtn ops guy, from some BIG resort past jobs and projects at those resorts, coming in at a time when plenty of mtn ops projects will be happening


Good for you guys 
 meanwhile in the MWV we get Food & Bev Managers who know nothing about  Mt. Operations. Not that  Lifts, & Snomaking are important

 Heard they just lost 50% of their groomers. That would be 1 person OR 1 groomer


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## ThatGuy (Mar 15, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Heard they just lost 50% of their groomers. That would be 1 person


He sacrificed himself and sent half of his body in a box to Broomfield so they know how bad they messed up. Other half to be converted into Robogroomer.


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## Mainer (Mar 15, 2022)

The one groomer at wildcat should be more than enough when u only have to groom one trail.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Attitash
> 
> Good for you guys
> meanwhile in the MWV we get Food & Bev Managers who know nothing about the Mt. Operations.
> ...


That only 2 groomer operator thing shocked me when I was at Attitash a few weeks ago and happened to ride up a chair with a Dad of of kid on the race team there who has one of the places between the 2 base areas and we got talking about Vail operations.  He told me the 2 groomer operators couldn't cover all the terrain daily that the mountain wished they could, so that created plenty of issues, especially for the race team, as they often had to "fight" with mountain ops to get race and training hills groomed regularly.  

The only 2 groomer operator thing was really put into perspective as I was skiing from the Bear Peak side over to the main side and went past the mountain ops facilities, where there were 2 winchcats and probably 4 to 6 non winchcats parked there, which is likely a realistic sign of how many cats they need to work the terrain they want to on a daily basis.

Hopefully next season for the sake of the mountain and it's loyal regulars, they can have operators in all of those cats on a nightly basis!


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## RichT (Mar 15, 2022)

Hope Hunter gets a new GM


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## NYDB (Mar 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> drjeff is a vail mole.


Fify


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## 2Planker (Mar 15, 2022)

Mainer said:


> The one groomer at wildcat should be more than enough when u only have to groom one trail.





drjeff said:


> That only 2 groomer operator thing shocked me when I was at Attitash a few weeks ago and happened to ride up a chair with a Dad of of kid on the race team there who has one of the places between the 2 base areas and we got talking about Vail operations.  He told me the 2 groomer operators couldn't cover all the terrain daily that the mountain wished they could, so that created plenty of issues, especially for the race team, as they often had to "fight" with mountain ops to get race and training hills groomed regularly.
> 
> The only 2 groomer operator thing was really put into perspective as I was skiing from the Bear Peak side over to the main side and went past the mountain ops facilities, where there were 2 winchcats and probably 4 to 6 non winchcats parked there, which is likely a realistic sign of how many cats they need to work the terrain they want to on a daily basis.
> 
> Hopefully next season for the sake of the mountain and it's loyal regulars, they can have operators in all of those cats on a nightly basis!


Total fucking lack of caring. aka Vail Fail
   I think tiny Black Mt (NH) has more groomers and more groomer operators than both WC & AT combined.
 3 of the non working AT groomers were  SR "hand me downs" that Les loaned to AT in the 90's.


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## Mainer (Mar 15, 2022)

Red parka cup just had to move to cranmore from attitash. A month later and the yankee still doesn’t work. If you believe that this pay raise will make a difference, I got a bridge to sell u


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## Edd (Mar 15, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Red parka cup just had to move to cranmore from attitash. A month later and the yankee still doesn’t work. If you believe that this pay raise will make a difference, I got a bridge to sell u


Cranmore was fantastic spring skiing today. Hope that event happens soon, though, the snow won’t last.


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## FBGM (Mar 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Purely biased for my home mountain, but I am excited to be getting a GM who is a big time mtn ops guy, from some BIG resort past jobs and projects at those resorts, coming in at a time when plenty of mtn ops projects will be happening


For what it’s worth Brian was my boss for 7+ years and the best boss and best person in general I’ve ever met in the ski industry. 

With that being said, I’m shocked he’s going to Mt Snow. The place is a dump and was a cluster for years under Peak. I’m sure it’s better under Vail but still.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

FBGM said:


> For what it’s worth Brian was my boss for 7+ years and the best boss and best person in general I’ve ever met in the ski industry.
> 
> With that being said, I’m shocked he’s going to Mt Snow. The place is a dump and was a cluster for years under Peak. I’m sure it’s better under Vail but still.



Your praises for him FBGM certainly are noted and grabbed my attention for sure in a good and optimistic way.

My home mountain certainly needs some more attention in the coming decade (realistically there could be 5 to maybe 8) lifts that very well may reach the end of the economically viable functional lifespan and need replacement (likely going to be a thing for many ski resorts as all of the lifts built in the 80's expansion boom will be approaching the 50 season mark), going to likely need to do some major work and or new construction of 1 to 2 base lodges and the Summit Lodge, and likely work to figure out an improved and expanded parking situation. However the place also has an up to date snowmaking system with an ample water supply, a new mtn ops facility, a base lodge that is only a few seasons old, a fair amount of on site employee housing, and a strong annual visitor draw. 

Peak definitely had some things they focused on and spent some money on those things. They also had other things where it's easier to see now in retrospect how they seemingly kept pushing aside often with the "well maybe we'll get to that in the next capital improvement cycle...." mentality and kept pushing that down the road without ever really addressing it.

In general though I can say that Peak left the place in better shape than ASC did for sure, and I am hopeful based on some of what I have seen the last few years under Vail that they will continue to address and actually fix the deficiencies in some areas that they acquired


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## catskillman (Mar 15, 2022)

RichT said:


> Hope Hunter gets a new GM


sounds like they have.  Brian Foley.  Check on the Hunter Facebook page for his video !!  and then meet him at the "Oasis" or "his trailer down by the creek".


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## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2022)

So I am on Maui time, but as to the news about Vail going to $20 per hour, two comments: (1)  as to NH areas, believe it when I see it; (2) as to it improving the problems that have plagued NH areas, I am going to wait and see.  Pay was only part of the problem.  Throwing money at these areas to increase pay does not resolve the other issues we have been hearing.


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## elks (Mar 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So I am on Maui time, but as to the news about Vail going to $20 per hour, two comments: (1)  as to NH areas, believe it when I see it;


This has already been communicated to current NH employees. With this second raise since Vail took over, our pay has increased 150% compared to Peaks. Not too many employees complaining about that.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 16, 2022)

So let me ask you this.  From an insiders perspective, why did they have such a hard time retaining or hiring at Attitash and Wildcat if the wages are so much better.  

Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to understand if the pay is so much better what the catalyst is for the poor retention/hiring of staff to properly run the mountain.


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## elks (Mar 16, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So let me ask you this.  From an insiders perspective, why did they have such a hard time retaining or hiring at Attitash and Wildcat if the wages are so much better.
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to understand if the pay is so much better what the catalyst is for the poor retention/hiring of staff to properly run the mountain.


I can only speak from what I saw in our department, but I imagine it was the same at other Vail resorts. The non-returning ski instructors were put off by the vaccine mandate implemented by Vail. It had nothing to do with the pay, which increased significantly at the beginning of the 2021-2022 season. Vail employee perks and benefits are also much more generous than Peaks ever were. I haven't seen this be a source of controversy in the locker room.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2022)

lol. sure. it was the vaccines.


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## FBGM (Mar 16, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So let me ask you this.  From an insiders perspective, why did they have such a hard time retaining or hiring at Attitash and Wildcat if the wages are so much better.
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to understand if the pay is so much better what the catalyst is for the poor retention/hiring of staff to properly run the mountain.


If I had to guess part of it is the pay is still not as high as other companies or job openings in area. Also people/employees are just fed up with Vail. Sure you can make more money but it’s still not the best company to work for. 

Vaccine mandates might play a small part. 

Also the work force in general is smaller now then before pandemic. That 55-65 year old workforce is smaller.l with people just retiring early via pandemic. Small percentage maybe but still less people. 

$20/hr in some of these rural areas should help. That should be more then other companies. Should help draw in employees


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## elks (Mar 16, 2022)

FBGM said:


> If I had to guess part of it is the pay is still not as high as other companies or job openings in area. Also people/employees are just fed up with Vail. Sure you can make more money but it’s still not the best company to work for.
> 
> Vaccine mandates might play a small part.


There's never been real money in ski school instruction at our resort and I don't know any adult instructor at our ski school that does it for the money. Some of the high-school and college instructors are more tuned in to what they get paid and may look more closely at the hourly rate, but that's the only segment that may make that calculus in my experience. 

As to "it’s still not the best company to work for," I can unequivocally say that working for Vail is a LOT better than working for Peaks. They provide so much more to their seasonal employees beyond better pay. Not even close.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 16, 2022)

Not that it’s the biggest reasons but vaccination requirements limit your available work force.

With only ~67% of New Hampshire residents vaccinated means you are limiting/alienating your available work force pool.

 It’s just math.


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## Mainer (Mar 16, 2022)

There is a lot that goes into hating vail and the employees feel it too. Last year was actually run better then this year at atticat. When u have to wait over a half hour in line to buy a ticket you are already pissed off, the ticket sellers feel it. When you have to wait in over a half hour line and their are multiple lifts not running people are pissed and the ticket checkers and liftees feel it. At attitash when you wait in line to get your vaccine card checked to buy food but then you are crammed in with tons of people who don’t have to be checked the food service workers feel it. At wildcat when you just want to warm up with your kids and you have to find the photo on your phone or go back to your car to find your vax card the cafeteria workers feel it. Or you can work at anywhere else for more money and your not getting yelled at constantly. Plus you don’t get bossed around with what you have to do with your body. 
    Lifts are constantly broken at atticat, parking lots full on weekends. It has really sucked this year. The pay raise is good but the problems run a lot deeper. The vibe has been completely ruined this year especially at at wildcat. No fucking bar on weekdays, no table service. I skied at Burke recently the mountain is similiar to wildcat. Great vibe, fully staffed, nice bar,  warm with music blasting. The vibe in Walmart is better then atticat and it’s a shame.


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## snoseek (Mar 16, 2022)

killwhat said:


> There's never been real money in ski school instruction at our resort and I don't know any adult instructor at our ski school that does it for the money. Some of the high-school and college instructors are more tuned in to what they get paid and may look more closely at the hourly rate, but that's the only segment that may make that calculus in my experience.
> 
> As to "it’s still not the best company to work for," I can unequivocally say that working for Vail is a LOT better than working for Peaks. They provide so much more to their seasonal employees beyond better pay. Not even close.


My time working for the company was mostly good for 4 seasons and a couple summers as I had an excellent team that I worked with that appreciated my work and made an honest effort to retain me. Eventually they got replaced or moved on. At that point I was not willing to move up as it was a shit deal all around and from what I can see the higher you move up the worse the pay vs work/expectation got.  

That's a major problem they need to fix vs placing some delusional manager that happens to have some company knowledge...doesn't mean shit if you don't know how to manage people. 

I've worked for a few resorts over the years. The closest comparison would be asc. Their pay was better but overall I liked my time at vail better


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## johnl87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Not that it’s the biggest reasons but vaccination requirements limit your available work force.
> 
> With only ~67% of New Hampshire residents vaccinated means you are limiting/alienating your available work force pool.
> 
> It’s just math.


ding ding ding.  and 5 bucks more an hour doesn't matter if they can suddenly take your job away for not taking a medication.  fortunately we have a lot of other places up here who never did this to employees.  glad i found a much better place to work.  bye bye vail.

and by the way, if they force boosters on employees, even more will leave.


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## snoseek (Mar 16, 2022)

johnl87 said:


> ding ding ding.  and 5 bucks more an hour doesn't matter if they can suddenly take your job away for not taking a medication.  fortunately we have a lot of other places up here who never did this to employees.  glad i found a much better place to work.  bye bye vail.
> 
> and by the way, if they force boosters on employees, even more will leave.


A 20 per hour minimum will solve that issue. They can be choosy at that rate.


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## catskillman (Mar 16, 2022)

FBGM said:


> If I had to guess part of it is the pay is still not as high as other companies or job openings in area. Also people/employees are just fed up with Vail. Sure you can make more money but it’s still not the best company to work for.
> 
> Vaccine mandates might play a small part.
> 
> ...


keep in mind these are mainly seasonal jobs, not year round.  silly to take a $20 seasonal job vs a $15 year round job, especially since in many areas they cannot collect umemployment


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

skiur said:


> How does the mountain prove that this happened?



Additionally, how on earth would you get caught?  This isnt something you post online with a smiley photo like a real estate agent.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2022)

oh great all the maga fucks are back.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. sure. it was the vaccines.



You never know.  Last month I learned that my 14 person eyedoctor's office let go of 4 people because they wouldn't submit to the New Jersey vaccine mandate, and that's in a healthcare setting to boot.


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## RH29 (Mar 16, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> You never know.  Last month I learned that my 14 person eyedoctor's office let go of 4 people because they wouldn't submit to the New Jersey vaccine mandate, and that's in a healthcare setting to boot.


It isn't the vaccine mandate. 93% of VT has one dose, 81% is fully vaccinated, and any sort of international workers (which Killington had a lot of when I visited in late Feb) are vaccinated.


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## gittist (Mar 16, 2022)

"Ted McDowell will transition in April from director of food and beverage at Heavenly Mountain Resort, Calif., to general manager of Roundtop."

Looking forward to an EPIC cafeteria experience...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

gittist said:


> "Ted McDowell will transition in April from director of food and beverage at Heavenly Mountain Resort, Calif., to general manager of Roundtop."
> 
> Looking forward to an EPIC cafeteria experience...



This is a bit disconcerting, LOL

You know, I was going to give Vail the benefit of the doubt & figured he surely must have mountain ops experience somewhere in his past, so I looked-up his bio = Nope.   Thirty years in food and beverage.

Exhibit # 479 that Vail doesn't care about its feeder hills.



			https://www.linkedin.com/in/ted-mcdowell-525a589/


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## elks (Mar 16, 2022)

RH29 said:


> It isn't the vaccine mandate. 93% of VT has one dose, 81% is fully vaccinated, and any sort of international workers (which Killington had a lot of when I visited in late Feb) are vaccinated.


I can only tell you what I saw in my department and at my mountain. There it was almost entirely vaccine related and a few folks that weren't able to commit due to the dynamics of their real job outside of the mountain.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

RH29 said:


> It isn't the vaccine mandate. 93% of VT has one dose, *81% is fully vaccinated,*



Vermont is one of the most heavily vaccinated states, and even then back in December it was 75% fully vaccinated, which would eliminate a whopping 1 in 4 people from employment.   In reality, *it's way higher than that* because the population of double-vaxed skews way older than a normal population distribution, to the point I bet it would have eliminated close to 50% of all potential candidates aged 18 - 45 back when the ski season started & hiring ramped-up. 

Even today if you go to the VT State Vax dashboard only 62% of those 18-29 years old (the key ski worker demo) are fully vaccinated.   So the more I think about this by taking a quick peak at the data, I think vaccination status probably mattered way more than people think.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 16, 2022)

gittist said:


> "Ted McDowell will transition in April from director of food and beverage at Heavenly Mountain Resort, Calif., to general manager of Roundtop."
> 
> Looking forward to an EPIC cafeteria experience...



F@%k...

Why would this guy want to move from Heavenly 3000 Miles across the country to a ski area that is open for 3-4 months a year.  He literally has no experience running a mountain.

Where did you see this?


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## oldfartrider (Mar 16, 2022)

Nobody should have to go back to their car to get their vax card.  Take a picture of it, that's all that is needed.  Some of these comments are pathetic.


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## Mainer (Mar 16, 2022)

My phone was in my car.  I forgot it while getting my kids ready.  I’m vaccinated, don’t give a shit if you are. Haven’t been in the wc lodge this year, usually just go to my car in c lot. Had hot chocolate and snacks there. Kid was screaming about cold feet, she’s never done that before. It was cold. Ran her into lodge with wife, wife searched phone for her card, kid was screaming while she flipped through her phone until she found it. I guess I should have just made my 5 yr old her sit on the floor by door and take off her boots. Wife found it, card checker wouldn’t let me in. I had to walk back to c lot to get my phone to sit with family.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 16, 2022)

you are so oppressed!


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## hovercraft (Mar 16, 2022)

For all the Vail haters, go at it!!!








						Vail Raises Frontline Pay to $20 an Hour, Accelerates Employee Housing Development
					

Company will also significantly expand HR team and allow employees back in resort communities via a flexible work program




					www.stormskiing.com


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## Mainer (Mar 16, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you are so oppressed!


Stupid rules that make no sense piss me off. Being able to warm up a 5 yr old at a ski area should be a given. No other area in the mwv has stupid rules like vail And no other area is hurting for staff like atticat. Coincidence?


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## Andrew B. (Mar 17, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> oh great all the maga fucks are back.





BenedictGomez said:


> So the more I think about this by taking a quick peak at the data, I think vaccination status probably mattered way more than people think.


Or is it that it doesn’t fit their agenda and they can’t actually assemble a sensible, factual response to prove it doesn’t so they dismiss it with simple insults?


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## Andrew B. (Mar 17, 2022)

It appears that Vail sucks for a lot of reasons
Some we all agree on
Some we don’t


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## eatskisleep (Mar 17, 2022)

But there’s one thing we can all agree on: VAIL STILL SUCKS!


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## drjeff (Mar 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> F@%k...
> 
> Why would this guy want to move from Heavenly 3000 Miles across the country to a ski area that is open for 3-4 months a year.  He literally has no experience running a mountain.
> 
> Where did you see this?



As I understand it, here is why at times Vail will look to Food and Beverage managers as possible promotable to GM roles, candidates,

#1, for the most part, the F&B managers that they have promoted to GM roles, have come from their larger mountains, where there F&B job had them overseeing plenty of staff in numerous facilities and types ranging from full sit down restaurants to cafeteria style facilities to walk up/take out style facilities to bar facilities. That alone has them of the mindset where they are used to multi tasking as well as chaos and how to improvise on short notice when something unexpected does happen.  They have budgets they have to work with and within as well.  Much of these skillsets and qualities they have, and have demonstrated in the F&B roles are skill sets and qualities that a GM of s ski area has to have as well.

Secondly, at a ski area, most of the time the GM is relying on the various advice and knowledge base that their department managers have and provide them.  Heck, if you have a GM who has a backgorund in mountain ops, they may not know nearly as much about resort lodging or ski school operations as they do about snowmaking and groomng, and then they rely on what their various department managers are telling them to piece it all together. And a GM also simply can't do everything at a resort as well as some of their various staff members can, to a degree they HAVE to rely on their staff and especially department managers to provide the needed leadership to their staff to make it all happen

I know that my friend, who was head of F&B at Mount Snow the last few seasons was promted by Vail this past Fall to be the GM at their Mount Brighton resort out in Michigan. and apparently is doing well out there.  As he decsribed it to me, before he headed West with his family it's all about the ability to work with people and manage the things you can plan for, as well as try and be ready for when something you aren't expecting happens, which is a skill set that a head of a larger F&B operation is used to.

It's not as much of a reach, if you think about it, as it may seem on the surface, especially if you have a good leader in the position as well as the overall company backing that leader up and giving them the proper support they need. That last part certainly has been an issue for some of the new GM's at some of the Vail properties these past few seasons


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## Smellytele (Mar 17, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> But there’s one thing we can all agree on: VAIL STILL SUCKS!


All but killwhat the vail minion.


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## Smellytele (Mar 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> As I understand it, here is why at times Vail will look to Food and Beverage managers as possible promotable to GM roles, candidates,
> 
> #1, for the most part, the F&B managers that they have promoted to GM roles, have come from their larger mountains, where there F&B job had them overseeing plenty of staff in numerous facilities and types ranging from full sit down restaurants to cafeteria style facilities to walk up/take out style facilities to bar facilities. That alone has them of the mindset where they are used to multi tasking as well as chaos and how to improvise on short notice when something unexpected does happen.  They have budgets they have to work with and within as well.  Much of these skillsets and qualities they have, and have demonstrated in the F&B roles are skill sets and qualities that a GM of s ski area has to have as well.
> 
> ...


So what is the 1st and most important thing a SKI AREA must provide? 
Answer: a good skiing product. With out that who gives a shit about anything else.


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## Andrew B. (Mar 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> With out that who gives a shit about anything else.


They are out there but they are not serious enough about skiing to post here.

Once a year families come to mind, an important demographic to many resorts bottom line.
Dad cares more about the beer selection, Mom cares more about the spa and the kids only care about chicken fingers, warm cookies and the heated outdoor pool. They get their 5 runs in on what ever is open and then off to whatever.


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## drjeff (Mar 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> So what is the 1st and most important thing a SKI AREA must provide?
> Answer: a good skiing product. With out that who gives a shit about anything else.



Agree.

Also, how many "good" GM's came up through the operations ranks vs some non operations ranks? The answer by no means is 100%

The ability to effectively manage people isn't always a skillset that can be acquired as easily as say the ability to learn when and where to make snow and how may groomers to send out on the hill.

The vast majority of people who have their career in the ski industry are underneath it all skiers or riders, so whether their job at the resort is in lodging, or ski school, or marketing/events or group sales, or mountain ops, etc they all do understand what a "good" product is.  The ability to be a good leader isn't something that comes as easily to everyone, and having a good leader is an important thing across all facets of the ski industry, from the consumer to the employee


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## slatham (Mar 17, 2022)

GM = General Manager. Management skills are not dependent on the department one is running. If you look at any industry, many Presidents/COO/CEO's are not directly from the "core" business. 

Further, at many resorts, the non-mountain ops departments are larger/more complex than mountain ops. 

And of course, if the mountain has a top notch mountain ops person, why would you bring in a GM with the same skill set?


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## Edd (Mar 17, 2022)

slatham said:


> And of course, if the mountain has a top notch mountain ops person, why would you bring in a GM with the same skill set?


Not all ski areas have a top notch mountain ops person, and those people don't grow on trees.  It is good if a GM knows damn well how operations should be running.  Those GMs do exist.


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## drjeff (Mar 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> Not all ski areas have a top notch mountain ops person, and those people don't grow on trees.  It is good if a GM knows damn well how operations should be running.  Those GMs do exist.



Take for example 2 GM's who people seem to regard as "GOOD" GM's.  Steve Wright at Jay Peak and Brian Heon at Sunday River.

Steve's background in the industry is in the marketing side of the business, from way back in the ASC days and even at Jay prior to him taking over as GM during the EB5 scenario.

Brian is a Ops guy, also started with ASC (he was early in his career when ASC bought the Canyons was was involved with the early on major lift installation projects at the Canyons before they went under and he went to Peak and now on to Boyne).

The common thread is they both have GOOD managerial skill sets, even if their initial entry into the ski industry was in very different departments


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## gittist (Mar 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> F@%k...
> 
> Why would this guy want to move from Heavenly 3000 Miles across the country to a ski area that is open for 3-4 months a year.  He literally has no experience running a mountain.
> 
> Where did you see this?












						Suhadolc Named GM of Mount Snow, McDowell to Lead Roundtop
					

SAM Magazine—Broomfield, Colo., March 16, 2022—Vail Resorts has named new general managers to two of its northeastern resorts: Brian Suhadolc will take the




					www.saminfo.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 17, 2022)

I see he's a local originally.  that's good and I can buy into what other's are saying that the general manager doesn't need to be an expert in all mountain operations.  He better be good at listening to his department mangers.  Fortunately for Roundtop our mountain manager isn't going anywhere and knows how to run the place!


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## chuckstah (Mar 18, 2022)

I finally ventured to Wildcat yesterday. While the lack of any attention to, well,  the entire ski ops were painfully obvious, it was a fun morning. It was basically polecat, catapult, and lynx ttb, with a handful of side optio Better than expected.


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## RichT (Mar 19, 2022)

Will the lower or even the mid, east resorts make it till next weekend?  Hunter could push with only the "mainline" (Hellgate) being open. Was pouring there a little while ago, bit more coming.


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## chuckstah (Mar 20, 2022)

RichT said:


> Will the lower or even the mid, east resorts make it till next weekend?  Hunter could push with only the "mainline" (Hellgate) being open. Was pouring there a little while ago, bit more coming.


In NH Crotched is going til next weekend. Definitely limited terrain, certainly enough snow to run the valley lift for the race trail, a flattened park trail and maybe a couple more. The summit will be thin.
I was at Sunapee Friday. The summit trails are weak, but there's tons of snow on the north peak pod. They can go for a while with the triple if they so choose. I'm fairly certain they'll piece together a handful of summit runs as well. It's going to be weak, but open.
Wildcat was on life support Thursday, but there's plenty  to go for a while on Bobcat with the namesake chair, and Polecat and Catapult to mid Wildcat from the summit are probably not quite done yet.


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## snoseek (Mar 20, 2022)

Just took a look on the crotched website. Is it true that they're at 25 inches for the season or is that a miscalculation?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Just took a look on the crotched website. Is it true that they're at 25 inches for the season or is that a miscalculation?



Open snow is reporting 32" for the season.  It's been bad for sure.  Heck even Saddleback is only claiming 138.


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## machski (Mar 20, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Just took a look on the crotched website. Is it true that they're at 25 inches for the season or is that a miscalculation?


But according to their snow report, Crotched is Packed Powder.  Oh wait, they haven't udated snow conditions on their condition report since the end of February.  And Vail wonders why people hate them.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2022)

Of all the things Vail has sucked at since entering the Eastern market, their snow reports are the most puzzling.  How difficult is it to spend five minutes each morning updating the snow report so it's accurate and informative??  Couldn't even the GM manage it? It reflects poorly on him / her to still have a report dated from almost a month ago.


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## urungus (Mar 20, 2022)

I went to Crotched on Thursday and the clocks in both the Rocket and West bottom terminals had not been sprung forward, 4 days after start of daylight savings.  Wonder what else they are failing to keep an eye on.

Was surprised at how empty it was.  Also love the outer space theme, but who came up with the name “Crotched Rocket” LOL


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## ThatGuy (Mar 20, 2022)

Running resorts at a normal schedule…nah
Blowing snow any time possible…nah
Treating employees well…nah
Keeping individual mountain culture…nah
Night skiing…nah
Snow reports…nah
Renaming lifts after fast bikes…


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## thebigo (Mar 20, 2022)

As much as a I hate vail for what they have done to NH, sunapee is putting on a great event today. No COVID BS, no hassling the massive tailgate just 325 very happy kids.


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## gmcunni (Mar 20, 2022)

had a great week at Heavenly last week.  I wish I could ski mid-week all the time. But on Saturday, we had a long line at opening (long = 7 minutes when the lift opened) but once on the mountain it was practically ski on all morning.  Trip to Beaver Creek and Vail in early April.  Hope to get back to Breck later in the month too. 

Can't wait to renew my Epic Pass for 22/23


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## doublediamond (Mar 20, 2022)

As much a Vail deserves all the flak it gets, it’s been named the Rocket since it was installed in 2012 under Peak ownership.

What Vail did was rename the triple to Rover, and yet was unable to get the chairs on the new haul rope at ANY point in the season!


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## FBGM (Mar 20, 2022)

gmcunni said:


> had a great week at Heavenly last week.  I wish I could ski mid-week all the time. But on Saturday, we had a long line at opening (long = 7 minutes when the lift opened) but once on the mountain it was practically ski on all morning.  Trip to Beaver Creek and Vail in early April.  Hope to get back to Breck later in the month too.
> 
> Can't wait to renew my Epic Pass for 22/23
> View attachment 53763


Vail paid you to post this, right?


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 20, 2022)




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## machski (Mar 21, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Vail paid you to post this, right?


Look, he's not necessarily off.  We had a great week in Vail.  Breck conditions were great but crowding even midweek was nuts at most but not all pods/lifts.  Still enjoyed it mostly.  CB was off the hook and an absolute joy to visit and ski at.  Vail has jewels in the portfolio and even ones like CB that ran the smoothest with most of their on hill offerings open (cannot say that about Vail itself, very limited offerings at many on hill locations).  They definitely have work to do to bring all their properties up/back up to the correct levels of service.  But you can still find great experiences, you just have to look and/or score a lucky week.


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## pinion247 (Mar 21, 2022)

Perception is realty. At its core, this thread exists to help others understand why their _perceived_ experience is not the _normal _Epic experience. Always love hearing that people have great times at great mountains, though. Nothing wrong with that.


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## snoseek (Mar 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Look, he's not necessarily off.  We had a great week in Vail.  Breck conditions were great but crowding even midweek was nuts at most but not all pods/lifts.  Still enjoyed it mostly.  CB was off the hook and an absolute joy to visit and ski at.  Vail has jewels in the portfolio and even ones like CB that ran the smoothest with most of their on hill offerings open (cannot say that about Vail itself, very limited offerings at many on hill locations).  They definitely have work to do to bring all their properties up/back up to the correct levels of service.  But you can still find great experiences, you just have to look and/or score a lucky week.


I spent some time down at cb a couple weeks ago and agree. That and kirkwood are my favorite on the epic pass. I'm hoping next year they straighten out nh so I can have those options again.


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## abc (Mar 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I spent some time down at cb a couple weeks ago and agree. That and kirkwood are my favorite on the epic pass. I'm hoping next year they straighten out nh so I can have those options again.


Actually, that's the whole point of the complains. KW and CB are sleepy places that got bought by Vail. CB got more crowded but nothing dramatic. KW still remain the same. Though the locals complain about early closing. Contrast that to Steven in northwest which had been a disaster even worse than Wildcat and Attitash combined! 

Vail focus on their flagship resorts at the expense of the smaller mountain. For CB and KW, the "neglect" makes little difference. Even the small increase in skier visit didn't matter. But for other smaller mountains Vail neglected, the result was disastrous.


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## skierinri (Mar 21, 2022)

No parking lot shuttles for the free lots at Mount Snow this weekend. People were still using them and walking. Total bullshit. I didn’t get any sort of “ticket” for parking in the paid lots.


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## machski (Mar 21, 2022)

Yes Stevens was a mess early on, but my understanding is the new/old GM brought in January and Vail poured a ton of attention into there at that point and beyond.  It made a huge difference and the Stevens experience vastly improved February on.  Now granted, Vail should have done that from the get go there.  But they did pivot successfully there.  Too bad the same couldn't have happened for NH.


abc said:


> Actually, that's the whole point of the complains. KW and CB are sleepy places that got bought by Vail. CB got more crowded but nothing dramatic. KW still remain the same. Though the locals complain about early closing. Contrast that to Steven in northwest which had been a disaster even worse than Wildcat and Attitash combined!
> 
> Vail focus on their flagship resorts at the expense of the smaller mountain. For CB and KW, the "neglect" makes little difference. Even the small increase in skier visit didn't matter. But for other smaller mountains Vail neglected, the result was disastrous


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 21, 2022)

So my wife was pulled down by our new dog the day after Christmas and fractured her jaw.  She wasn't able to ski mostly because her teeth were very sensitive and that went on until Early March when she had a follow up appointment and it was determined that the jaw had healed and she had a root canal done. 

I called Vail and said she hasn't and isn't going to use her 21-22 pass.  Can I just roll it over towards the cost of the 22-23 Pass?  They said no, we don't do that.  She can apply for a refund through the insurance.   So instead of just keeping my money and applying it to next year, they are going to spend a bunch of money through their insurance provider and accounting staff writing me a check (They said it would be an actual check).  What a crock of shit... 

I'm guessing this is a way to A) hope I don't do it B) still show my wife as a new pass purchase for next year


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## Mainer (Mar 21, 2022)

Skied attitash yesterday. All the lifts were running, triple keep stopping and flying bear was half speed. But it was nice to have it all running. Skiing was good, nobody there. No mask needed inside or vax card. Even had the fire going outside at bear. Not a fan of the park placement unless they start running the little kachina lift. They are starting the replacement of double double this week. Too little too late for me though, I’m going to miss wildcat and attitash


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## gittist (Mar 21, 2022)

2022/23 EPIC passes are out. Of course the prices are up but not as much as I expected.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2022)

gittist said:


> 2022/23 EPIC passes are out. Of course the prices are up but not as much as I expected.


Beat me to it.  Still lower than IKON.  









						Vail Resorts Keeps Epic Pass Prices Low For Next Season (Locals Outraged)
					

Vail Resorts has the made the bold decision to keep their Epic Pass price significantly below their largest competitor- the Ikon Pass. The full-fledged Epic Pass is currently on sale at $841, and t…




					unofficialnetworks.com


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## doublediamond (Mar 21, 2022)

ALL the lifts attitash? Are you sure or you paid by Vail?

Double-Doubles haven’t run all year

Kachina hasn’t run all year.

Why lie?


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## Mainer (Mar 21, 2022)

I just meant the three quads and the triple. I haven’t been there this year when all the main lifts are running. Something is always broke or can’t run due to staffing. Kachina never runs ( has to be at least 5 years) even though the park is set up like it does. I figured the double double is condemned, which is why it hasn’t run. I don’t think there is a bigger hater of vail then myself. Funny shit


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2022)

skierinri said:


> No parking lot shuttles for the free lots at Mount Snow this weekend. People were still using them and walking. Total bullshit. I didn’t get any sort of “ticket” for parking in the paid lots.



Lack of staff, or are you suggesting Vail does this to make money?


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## skierinri (Mar 21, 2022)

It was my first time there this year so I have nothing it base it off of. I’m guessing they saw the forecast and assumed no one would be there(it was dead), so why not save a few $100 on a shuttle driver or 2.


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## abc (Mar 21, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So my wife was pulled down by our new dog the day after Christmas and fractured her jaw.  She wasn't able to ski mostly because her teeth were very sensitive and that went on until Early March when she had a follow up appointment and it was determined that the jaw had healed and she had a root canal done.
> 
> I called Vail and said she hasn't and isn't going to use her 21-22 pass.  Can I just roll it over towards the cost of the 22-23 Pass?  They said no, we don't do that.  She can apply for a refund through the insurance.   So instead of just keeping my money and applying it to next year, they are going to spend a bunch of money through their insurance provider and accounting staff writing me a check (They said it would be an actual check).  What a crock of shit...
> 
> I'm guessing this is a way to A) hope I don't do it B) still show my wife as a new pass purchase for next year


No, it doesn't work the way you think. Vail and the insurance company are two different entities.

I had to do one such claim last year. Vail is completely out of the picture. I was dealing exclusively with the insurance company. In fact, no difference if I had bought my own insurance independent of Vail.

"Rolling the pass to next season" means Vail won't get to sell you another pass next season.

You filing insurance means Vail gets to keep your money for this season and sell you a new one next season. Yes, the insurance company has to pay out, and they may wish you don't file. But it makes no difference to Vail whether you file or not.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 21, 2022)

abc said:


> No, it doesn't work the way you think. Vail and the insurance company are two different entities.
> 
> I had to do one such claim last year. Vail is completely out of the picture. I was dealing exclusively with the insurance company. In fact, no difference if I had bought my own insurance independent of Vail.
> 
> ...


There was a post on Snowjournal of someone who had being back and forth with Vail’s insurance for MONTHS on end trying to get a settlement (refund). Not sure where it stands now, but they probably hope most people just give up.


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## cdskier (Mar 21, 2022)

abc said:


> No, it doesn't work the way you think. Vail and the insurance company are two different entities.
> 
> "Rolling the pass to next season" means Vail won't get to sell you another pass next season.
> 
> You filing insurance means Vail gets to keep your money for this season and sell you a new one next season. Yes, the insurance company has to pay out, and they may wish you don't file. But it makes no difference to Vail whether you file or not.



Agree with this. Vail's stance makes 100% sense in this case and this is exactly why they use an insurance company to handle claims like this. There's a lot you can fault Vail for...but this isn't one of them.


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## gmcunni (Mar 21, 2022)

gittist said:


> 2022/23 EPIC passes are out. Of course the prices are up but not as much as I expected.


somebody has to pay for the increased salary being paid to all the workers.


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## Zermatt (Mar 21, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> There was a post on Snowjournal of someone who had being back and forth with Vail’s insurance for MONTHS on end trying to get a settlement (refund). Not sure where it stands now, but they probably hope most people just give up.


No, they're trying to protect against insurance fraud. Based on the amount of people at Vail who think pass fraud is cool I'd expect insurance fraud to be high on the list as well.


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## meff (Mar 21, 2022)

gmcunni said:


> somebody has to pay for the increased salary being paid to all the workers.


The !~7% won't really cover the salary and isn't enough to lower the crowding issue some mountains have.  The lower priced 1-7 day passes are likely going to make crowding at some even worse.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 22, 2022)

Are those $44 tickets going to be all
Season at Wildcat? If so, that’s a bit of a game changer.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Are those $44 tickets going to be all
> Season at Wildcat? If so, that’s a bit of a game changer.


If you buy them via the Epic Day pass...but those are only for sale as long as Epic passes themselves are for sale.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> If you buy them via the Epic Day pass...but those are only for sale as long as Epic passes themselves are for sale.


Who knows what conditions are so far out, so pretty useless to most. A nice effort though by Vail though, I will give them that.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 22, 2022)

you dont choose your day on the epic day pass, its an any-day product. you're just buying individual days in advance at a discount instead of a full pass. I'm slightly tempted to get a few days at stowe. but no.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Are those $44 tickets going to be all
> Season at Wildcat? If so, that’s a bit of a game changer.



It's very tempting.  I could see myself buying a couple in the future.  But, I'll likely give it a year to see if operational improvements have happened as they're promising.  It's obviously very little risk to buy them for next season.  It's more an ethical decision for me not to at this point.

I'd also consider getting a higher tiered VT day ticket for early season.  That's really the only downside to Indy.  Limited early season options plus not wanting to burn one of two days on WROD.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Who knows what conditions are so far out, so pretty useless to most. A nice effort though by Vail though, I will give them that.



Not really useless at all. They're valid any day of the season (or any non-blackout day depending on which level ticket you buy). You don't have to decide on the date to use them until you show up at the mountain. Not really any different than buying a Sugarbush Quad Pack, or K-Ticket, or a Ski Vermont 4 Pass,. etc... Quite a few people buy all of those various pre-paid discounted tickets.


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## meff (Mar 22, 2022)

Exactly the Epic 1-7 passes are really just like any pre-paid pack but bundled as 'pass' and counted by Vail as a pass sold.  Either way, I don't see the crowd issues seen/experienced this year going away next year.  

I'm somewhat locked into an Epic unless I want to try exchanging my two timeshare weeks out at Vail for another mountain, but out east I'm debating other options to avoid some of the crowds.


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## Smellytele (Mar 22, 2022)

meff said:


> Exactly the Epic 1-7 passes are really just like any pre-paid pack but bundled as 'pass' and counted by Vail as a pass sold.  Either way, I don't see the crowd issues seen/experienced this year going away next year.
> 
> I'm somewhat locked into an Epic unless I want to try exchanging my two timeshare weeks out at Vail for another mountain, but out east I'm debating other options to avoid some of the crowds.


Stay at vail and take the drive over the pass to copper/abasin or drive up to steamboat.


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## meff (Mar 22, 2022)

If I get an Ikon for out east we'll 100% be hitting other mountains since the local only has 10 days at Vail/BC we generally hit Breck or Keystone anyhow.

I'm just in the camp I wish Vail would consider crowds especially on the trail as a safety/enjoyment issue rather than a good stat to report to wall street.


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## chuckstah (Mar 22, 2022)

The only person I rode a lift with today at attitash, which sucked, said he is fed up with Vail and showed me his brand new ikon pass. There's going to be a lot of that.


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## ctdubl07 (Mar 22, 2022)

I guess as one of the few fans of Vails aggregation model, I did the opposite. I upgraded all 6 of our Epic "local" passes to top Epic for next season because I continue to appreciate the value and options presented.

We just came back from CB and while I was not a fan, I can certainly see why I would be in the minority on this forum. My 4 young kids had a blast knocking around off piste with an instructor we hired for the day. Being on a board, there was no way I was going to take the chance being unsure of myself on terrain I was unfamiliar with while chasing after 4 lunatics. Due to their years of programs, they are far better skiers than I am a 25 yr boarder.

Its easy to se why CB is a favorite of many serious skiers...its got a ton of xterrrain, a super mellow vibe and a legit cool town close by.
But if your not into the extreme stuff, IMO its no different than skiing say Killington or Sunday River...no long runs and a just a bunch of small satellite hill areas connected by green flats or cat tracks. I found the staff very friendly and seemingly happy. The demo/rental equipment were crap and I was surprised how small the base area was, both something Id expect to see at MS.

I did get a kick out of the many people I heard commenting to friends, "hey, Im heading in, its just to busy out here" and I chuckled, looking at 50 or so people in a line on a Saturday as I think back to a typical Sat at MS.

I can see many making the mistake that because your going West, its going to be this vast playground like Vail, Hev or PC with super nice amenities and developed base areas....thats my error. But the beauty of these passes is that it gives many of you on here an awesome option of serious terrain like CB or me, a place like BRidge that my whole family can enjoy for 4 days. To make it all work as we all expect (want) is near impossible. Its an imperfect model but Id argue were winning more often than losing (unless your in Vails NH) with an incredible range of options.

No one is wrong in what is the right mtn experience for them but I again am satisfied with what Vail provides for our needs.

Next year were thinking back to Heavenly and maybe a trip to check out Telluride plus my 15 yr old old is actually thinking about a job now....$20++ helping kids ski is allot better than the my first as a dish dog at Friendlys @ $5.50.

And no, not paid by Vail or a corporate plant.....


----------



## snoseek (Mar 22, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> I guess as one of the few fans of Vails aggregation model, I did the opposite. I upgraded all 6 of our Epic "local" passes to top Epic for next season because I continue to appreciate the value and options presented.
> 
> We just came back from CB and while I was not a fan, I can certainly see why I would be in the minority on this forum. My 4 young kids had a blast knocking around off piste with an instructor we hired for the day. Being on a board, there was no way I was going to take the chance being unsure of myself on terrain I was unfamiliar with while chasing after 4 lunatics. Due to their years of programs, they are far better skiers than I am a 25 yr boarder.
> 
> ...


Telluride is similar to cb but with longer runs. It may work just fine but take away the really steep stuff and it probably skis kinda small. Have you considered beaver creek?


----------



## ctdubl07 (Mar 23, 2022)

Thanks for the response on Tride, that is good perspective.
Yes, we have been to BC a number of times, mostly because Eagle is super close and there are Marriott/Sheraton properties in Avon to blow points on. My wife and kids like the long runs, cookies and fairly empty trails vs V.
Check out this sign from the BCRC I took last Easter....I asked the attendant if it was real??..did people pay it?  And he said "oh yeah, we keep raising price and still turn people away because we don't have enough spots"


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> Thanks for the response on Tride, that is good perspective.
> Yes, we have been to BC a number of times, mostly because Eagle is super close and there are Marriott/Sheraton properties in Avon to blow points on. My wife and kids like the long runs, cookies and fairly empty trails vs V.
> Check out this sign from the BCRC I took last Easter....I asked the attendant if it was real??..did people pay it?  And he said "oh yeah, we keep raising price and still turn people away because we don't have enough spots"



in the passes thread i just mentioned my friend who goes to his father in law's timeshare at beaver creek. its there at the ritz. they call it bachelor gulch. friend's wife's family has so much money its grotesque.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2022)

Meanwhile it appears that Crotched's social media presence has been reduced to cheap product placement:


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2022)

not even the one true coca cola.


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## snoseek (Mar 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile it appears that Crotched's social media presence has been reduced to cheap product placement:


The fact that the local kids haven't stolen thus thing makes me wonder what kind of world we live in now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> The fact that the local kids haven't stolen thus thing makes me wonder what kind of world we live in now.


Dude, I hear that the experience at Crotched is out of this world.


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## mbedle (Mar 23, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So my wife was pulled down by our new dog the day after Christmas and fractured her jaw.  She wasn't able to ski mostly because her teeth were very sensitive and that went on until Early March when she had a follow up appointment and it was determined that the jaw had healed and she had a root canal done.
> 
> I called Vail and said she hasn't and isn't going to use her 21-22 pass.  Can I just roll it over towards the cost of the 22-23 Pass?  They said no, we don't do that.  She can apply for a refund through the insurance.   So instead of just keeping my money and applying it to next year, they are going to spend a bunch of money through their insurance provider and accounting staff writing me a check (They said it would be an actual check).  What a crock of shit...
> 
> I'm guessing this is a way to A) hope I don't do it B) still show my wife as a new pass purchase for next year


Sorry to hear that. You should know that you only have 30 days from a qualifying personal event to file a claim for a refund.


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## mbedle (Mar 23, 2022)

abc said:


> No, it doesn't work the way you think. Vail and the insurance company are two different entities.
> 
> I had to do one such claim last year. Vail is completely out of the picture. I was dealing exclusively with the insurance company. In fact, no difference if I had bought my own insurance independent of Vail.
> 
> ...


Are you sure that Vail is using an outside insurance company for their Epic Coverage. They previously used an outside insurance company back when you use to pay for it, but that doesn't seem to be the case the pass couple of years. The terms and conditions states that the Epic Coverage is actual just Vail Resort's refund policy for the season passes. I did notice that they use an outside firm to manage the claim process, but that firm does not appear to offer insurance directly.


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## mbedle (Mar 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> The fact that the local kids haven't stolen thus thing makes me wonder what kind of world we live in now.


Thats the Vail "Unique Visual Experiences"... The stuck a really ugly plastic Stowe sign at the top of the gondola.


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## Vince (Mar 23, 2022)

Anybody know the most sure fire way to get OFF auto renew for Epic passes? I called a few weeks ago and told them I want off. Asked for confirmation and was told they could do confirmations only if I was on auto renew. Nothing to send if I was off. 
Today got an email saying that I was on auto renew and would be charged $49 on May 17th.
They suck I'm switching from full Epic $840 to Epic Northeast Midweek Pass $385. Will get Indy and Ikon base also.


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## mbedle (Mar 24, 2022)

Vince said:


> Anybody know the most sure fire way to get OFF auto renew for Epic passes? I called a few weeks ago and told them I want off. Asked for confirmation and was told they could do confirmations only if I was on auto renew. Nothing to send if I was off.
> Today got an email saying that I was on auto renew and would be charged $49 on May 17th.
> They suck I'm switching from full Epic $840 to Epic Northeast Midweek Pass $385. Will get Indy and Ikon base also.


Send an email to seasonpass@vailresorts.com and call 970-754-0008, hit 1, 4 and 1. Write date and time you called to cancel and if they charge your card on the 17th, dispute the charge.


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2022)

Vince said:


> Anybody know the most sure fire way to get OFF auto renew for Epic passes? I called a few weeks ago and told them I want off. Asked for confirmation and was told they could do confirmations only if I was on auto renew. Nothing to send if I was off.
> Today got an email saying that I was on auto renew and would be charged $49 on May 17th.
> They suck I'm switching from full Epic $840 to Epic Northeast Midweek Pass $385. Will get Indy and Ikon base also.


Tell your credit card company about it ahead of time and ask them to issue you a new card, with a different account number. Yes it's a PITA for any other items you may have linked to that card, but if you really want to prevent auto renewal and don't want to take any chances with the customer service hassles people often experience with them, it might not be a bad idea


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## Zermatt (Mar 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Tell your credit card company about it ahead of time and ask them to issue you a new card, with a different account number. Yes it's a PITA for any other items you may have linked to that card, but if you really want to prevent auto renewal and don't want to take any chances with the customer service hassles people often experience with them, it might not be a bad idea


Simply changing your credit card doesn't relieve the electronic contract you signed to be on auto renew. I'm sure it's in the terms somewhere. Vail could still go after you for the money even if they can't charge your card.

Not sure about this case but most auto pays don't care if your credit card number changes. They will still go through.

Remember, Vail claims auto renew is a benefit of being a pass holder. You should be thankful of this gift they have given you.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2022)

They flat out refused to remove my card from their system.  They said the software doesn't allow them to.  I find that highly suspect and questionable whether it's legal.   The only thing I could do was ask them to deactivate my account.


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## snoseek (Mar 24, 2022)

Apparently I'm getting a check from a class action lawsuit for some sorta wage dispute a few years back


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## machski (Mar 24, 2022)

I made damn sure to check (uncheck) the auto renew tab when we bout our Epics for this season.  Easy to see on our account we are definitely NOT on auto renew.  Which is good, won't be buying next year.


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Simply changing your credit card doesn't relieve the electronic contract you signed to be on auto renew. I'm sure it's in the terms somewhere. Vail could still go after you for the money even if they can't charge your card.
> 
> Not sure about this case but most auto pays don't care if your credit card number changes. They will still go through.
> 
> Remember, Vail claims auto renew is a benefit of being a pass holder. You should be thankful of this gift they have given you.



I went through this with Six Flags.  Basically all they do is send you a few emails/calls saying that something "bad" can happen if you don't provide them with a valid credit card, then when you speak with them when they contact you, you just tell them that you ARE canceling, they have it on record, it is before the pass can be used, and it's not worth their time and effort (since they know that they really can't do anything) to pursue further.

Six F;ags had it where I had to let them know 2 months before I wanted to cancel, and then once I said I wanted to cancel, (before their park season began) they said that to cancel that I had to pay the 1st 2 months of the season before I could cancel. My CC had been hacked shortly before the new term began, they didn't have a valid CC number on file, end of story on my part with them


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## machski (Mar 24, 2022)

I do have to say though skiing at Sunapee on my Birthday, it was kind of cool hearing the hand scanner start playing party music and the lift ops wishing me a happy birthday.  Nice touch to the hand operated RFID scanners vs gates in that instance.


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## gittist (Mar 24, 2022)

machski said:


> I made damn sure to check (uncheck) the auto renew tab when we bout our Epics for this season.  Easy to see on our account we are definitely NOT on auto renew.


This is the first year that my pass was eligible for the auto-renew. Like you I made sure I declined the auto-renew. After reading these comments I logged into my account to make sure it said declined.


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## catskillman (Mar 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> They flat out refused to remove my card from their system.  They said the software doesn't allow them to.  I find that highly suspect and questionable whether it's legal.   The only thing I could do was ask them to deactivate my account.


PCI regulations require that they have to encrypt your number, and cannot store it in the original format.

CC companies will let Vail charge a different card number as long as the issuing bank is the same.  I am not on auto renew, but I was grateful that banks did this will other companies I had on direct bill when I had my card compromised and had to get a new number.


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## catskillman (Mar 24, 2022)

From Skilogy Matt on Facebook.  If you do not follow him I would suggest you do.  He does his research & Very Interesting Posts, like the one below

*NEWS: Vail Resorts Was Understaffed to the Tune of $73M This Season*
This comes from their 2022 Investors' Conference presentation (https://bit.ly/36rO0n7) where they indicated that next season's $175 million boost to wages is actually a $98 million boost due to wages, and the rest of that figure coming from a "return to normal staffing" amounting to $73 million, and a $4 million investment in human resources staff. It is honestly a bit scary to hear that they were only down 15% in their expected hourly labor and suffered as bad as they did.

When Vail Resorts entered the season with a serious shortage of labor, instead of trying to right the ship by being more aggressive with hiring and wages, they mostly just stayed the course while at the same time back in January they guided their investors that they still expected to hit their profit targets despite failing to reach their visitation and revenue targets. The move in mid-January to offer employees who finished the season a $3/hour bonus was done as a stop gap measure to help stem the flow of departures as employees were leaving due to a combination of factors related to being overcapacity and understaffed which could have otherwise lead to shutdowns. They also saved money beyond labor by not making as much snow, which can cost around $1,000 an acre foot (cost varies widely due to weather and equipment), and by cutting operating hours and even full days from their schedules at some resorts. This was a choice.

Despite their choice to maintain reduced labor and operations which impacted skiers and riders, Vail Resorts increased their dividend for shareholders this last quarter and it is now the highest that it has ever been; an annual rate of over $300 million presently. For those passholders across the Northeast and the Midwest who faced reductions in operations from lift hours, to days operating, to terrain availability, and even surface conditions, they didn't get a refund or a credit, nor even an honest admission or apology. The customers that Vail Resorts cares about most are clearly their shareholders and not their passholders who pay upfront for their services. This single fact is the basis for most of what is wrong with Vail Resorts' approach to the ski business.


*Is This a Legitimate Business Practice and Could It Happen Again?*
Is it right that a company of Vail's size and financial standing choose to not fully staff their resorts, and offer reduced terrain, operating hours, and even season length for people who had previously purchased passes and expected somewhat normal operations based on guidance?

A: I don't believe so. Liability may actually exist here.

Can we expect Vail Resorts to hire less staff, make less snow, and reduce operating hours and days in future seasons when they are struggling to hit their own guidance to Wall Street?

A: I think this is a reasonable expectation for the future given what they have done the last two seasons.






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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2022)

catskillman said:


> From Skilogy Matt on Facebook. If you do not follow him I would suggest you do. He does his research & Very Interesting Posts, like the one below


He copy pastes from NWS and other weather groups, always begs for money, and send the gapers on weekday storm-chases. Glad his group will be 25$ next year hopefully cuts down on the jerrys asking if they can drive up to Stowe with their RWD bald tires.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2022)

All you need for weather if you don’t want to research a lot.



			National Weather Service


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## catskillman (Mar 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> He copy pastes from NWS and other weather groups, always begs for money, and send the gapers on weekday storm-chases. Glad his group will be 25$ next year hopefully cuts down on the jerrys asking if they can drive up to Stowe with their RWD bald tires.


true - about people asking specific questions rather than reading his post, very anoying.  Just like the Epic Pass site - always repeatdly asking how to get to mtn from airport, conditions, where to eat...


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## snoseek (Mar 24, 2022)

The skiology guy is fine and his page has some.good info that goes beyond weather and factors in other stuff. It's the members that are cancer...then again that's facebook


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## machski (Mar 24, 2022)

Skiology posting crap again.  Sure, OVERALL Vail may have only been down 15% staffing wise, but anyone with a Brain can analyze that and realize/see that was not balanced across the company.  Many of their big, western resorts were much better staffed than their small Midwestern resorts, NH resorts and Stevens.  I bet their CO properties were closer to just 5-10% understaffed where as their Ohio areas were probably closer to 50% understaffed (much fewer employees there, especially after stripping out Peaks HR and others there).  Very easy to understand how that 15% number is very misleading.


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## Apple Country (Mar 24, 2022)

Stowe did not look understaffed to me at all, surprise surprise. They had crews parking cars for lesson drop offs, parking lot staff...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

Snow making was under staffed..


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 24, 2022)

Statistics are dangerous things.
A man with one foot in boiling water and one in an ice bucket is, on average, comfortable.
or
Statistically speaking, the average resident resident in Miami is born Cuban and dies Jewish


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Snow making was under staffed..


I think I remember comments about how long it took them to get all the trails covered due to that...but I'll say based on what I saw yesterday, you'd never know they were short-staffed after seeing the final product once everything was done. (Unless there's some trails they skipped...but I didn't notice anything major). The coverage and depth was quite impressive across a wide number of their trails.


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I think I remember comments about how long it took them to get all the trails covered due to that...but I'll say based on what I saw yesterday, you'd never know they were short-staffed after seeing the final product once everything was done. (Unless there's some trails they skipped...but I didn't notice anything major). The coverage and depth was quite impressive across a wide number of their trails.


Staffing was certainly an issue for snowmaking at mainy places, and not just Vail Resort properties. Also can't forget that Mother Nature wasn't exactly entirely cooperative this season as well. Plenty of marginal, but not great temp windows with fairly frequent warm, liquid events, that had the smaller crews at times working on resurfacing, and then having to resurface again and again in some cases at times when typically they'd be in expansion mode. 

Heck, look at Killington, they've still got a bunch of work to do on Superstar, at a time of the season, while not unprecedented for them to be working on Superstar, but more likely to just be "topping it off" rather than having to build a great deal of it.  It has been a challenging year weather wise for snowmaking ops


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

Liftline opened late as they had to blow the race course at spruce.
In the end it worked out. Every trail was eventualy skiable.


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## hovercraft (Mar 24, 2022)

It was more then blowing snow at the race course.  In the beginning of the season they had two rain events after getting the opening trails covered and had to go back and refresh them.  By the time that was complete they needed to get spruce and the Gondi side open for the Xmas week.  After that was done they went to lift line.  Those areas are way more important then lift line.  Considering the lack of snow, and  rain events they did an admirable job managing the mountain this year.  They even went back in mid February to blow a shit load of snow on many trails to get more dept for spring.  The coverage and depth are impressive considering the weather this year plus what the past two weeks have been with all the rain.  All in all the people who went to Stowe this year should be satisfied for how they managed those ares…..


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## ThatGuy (Mar 24, 2022)

My only complaint at Stowe is their aggressive closing of trails.


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> My only complaint at Stowe is their aggressive closing of trails.


Yup. That was one of my main complaints when I went there yesterday (my comments on that and my experience in general at Stowe yesterday are in the Sugarbush thread).


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## hovercraft (Mar 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> My only complaint at Stowe is their aggressive closing of trails.


Agreed, They have always been more aggressive then SB on closing trails but this year was silly.  I am hoping it was lack of Ski Patrol this year, not the new norm….


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

Yet i at least managed to ski the front 4 enough. You can only hit them so many times till your legs are shot.


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## kendo (Mar 24, 2022)

I'd rather they go to a gated policy versus a rope the whole thing closed policy.  String your rope across the 'dangerous' trail leaving an opening at both ends and put as many 'thin cover', 'immanent death ice ahead' (or whatever your insurance agent wants) signage next to the openings.  Keeps the masses from blindly skiing down the slopes but allows us the opportunity to ski it at our own risk. 

They did that on Upper Smuggs.  Why not on Spruce Line and so many others...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

Ski patrol doesnt want the hassle i guess.


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## 2Planker (Mar 24, 2022)

kendo said:


> I'd rather they go to a gated policy versus a rope the whole thing closed policy.  String your rope across the 'dangerous' trail leaving an opening at both ends and put as many 'thin cover', 'immanent death ice ahead' (or whatever your insurance agent wants) signage next to the openings.  Keeps the masses from blindly skiing down the slopes but allows us the opportunity to ski it at our own risk.
> 
> They did that on Upper Smuggs.  Why not on Spruce Line and so many others...


Patrol has to consider not only how safe it would be for all skiers/riders, But also how safe is it to run a loaded sled down that trail.
May also be roped off due to what it empties in too, just saying...


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 24, 2022)

The top of liftline comes to mind..pretty sporty exit onto middle liftline..


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## njdiver85 (Mar 25, 2022)

Aggressive closing of trails has been an issue at Mount Snow as well this year.   There have been a number of intermediate natural trails that had decent coverage yet remained closed, at the same time as advanced natural trails, with far worse coverage were left open.  I've since learned directly from management that in fact, they are considering the level of skier that would go down a trail based on the trail designation.  So a blue trail with good coverage could be closed to prevent inexperienced skiers from having to deal with less than optimal conditions.  This is definitely a policy shift since Vail took over.  Yet another reason why Vail sucks!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 25, 2022)

Wouldnt want anyone getting hurt..god forbid.


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## eatskisleep (Mar 25, 2022)

Might as well make all skiers wear a bubble wrap suit… gotta keep ‘em safe!


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 25, 2022)

I  have some left over from the move..


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## hovercraft (Mar 25, 2022)

njdiver85 said:


> Aggressive closing of trails has been an issue at Mount Snow as well this year.   There have been a number of intermediate natural trails that had decent coverage yet remained closed, at the same time as advanced natural trails, with far worse coverage were left open.  I've since learned directly from management that in fact, they are considering the level of skier that would go down a trail based on the trail designation.  So a blue trail with good coverage could be closed to prevent inexperienced skiers from having to deal with less than optimal conditions.  This is definitely a policy shift since Vail took over.  Yet another reason why Vail sucks!


I hope that isn’t true.  If so, that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in a while!!!


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## hovercraft (Mar 25, 2022)

Not sure if this has been posted, interesting read…








						Why Is Everyone So Angry At Vail Resorts? – VT SKI + RIDE
					

Look at it one way and it’s the classic American business success story: Young Wharton Business School grad gets tapped




					vtskiandride.com


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## catskillman (Mar 25, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Not sure if this has been posted, interesting read…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hunter had a sign at the 6 pack saying they would be making snow Sunday & Monday....about time.....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2022)

All Epic or IKON resorts.









						The 5 Ski Resorts with the Worst Traffic - SnowBrains
					

Let’s talk about everyone’s absolute favorite part of any ski trip: traffic. Skiers can experience overcrowded interstates and standstill




					snowbrains.com


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## Zand (Mar 25, 2022)

More like all Epic.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> All Epic or IKON resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


all Epic - IKON hater


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 25, 2022)

Never waited in traffic at Stowe. Get..up..early...leave at 230...done


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## Mainer (Mar 25, 2022)

Having an argument with my friend. I’m not doing epic again. I live in the MWV. He wants to do it again, atticat definitely is the best terrain in the valley. I say remember wildcat express wasn’t open until mid January, basically one trail for the first 6 weeks.Attitash had no yankee midweek except for a month in feb/March. No Abenaki until feb, all the lifts kept breaking too. But the price is so much cheaper then everyone else, king pine is more. I say remember when all the parking lots were full but not all the lifts were running. Doesn’t matter he says, still the best deal. Epic is still going to kill it next year. But I’ll be skiing somewhere else and it makes me sad. But I won’t be be saying wtf all winter at the ruination of my favorite ski areas.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> Not sure if this has been posted, interesting read…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And herein lies the problem:



> “You can’t offer unlimited access to something that has a limited supply. It’s as if you had a restaurant with 40 seats and then told an unlimited number of people they can come in and have a meal. You’re going to run out of space, materials and what a staff can deliver,” says Jonny Adler, a Stowe local and a partner in The Skinny Pancake restaurant business.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Never waited in traffic at Stowe. Get..up..early...leave at 230...done


Early Slug gets the worm


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## snoseek (Mar 25, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Having an argument with my friend. I’m not doing epic again. I live in the MWV. He wants to do it again, atticat definitely is the best terrain in the valley. I say remember wildcat express wasn’t open until mid January, basically one trail for the first 6 weeks.Attitash had no yankee midweek except for a month in feb/March. No Abenaki until feb, all the lifts kept breaking too. But the price is so much cheaper then everyone else, king pine is more. I say remember when all the parking lots were full but not all the lifts were running. Doesn’t matter he says, still the best deal. Epic is still going to kill it next year. But I’ll be skiing somewhere else and it makes me sad. But I won’t be be saying wtf all winter at the ruination of my favorite ski areas.


If you're gonna do epic it absolutely needs to be looked at as a supplemental pass at this point


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2022)

Maxed Out: Dear Vail Resorts—loyalty is a two-way street
					

Vail Resorts is increasing its minimum wage and committing to affordable housing options—but what's needed in Whistler is a focus on customer service.




					www.piquenewsmagazine.com


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## Kingslug20 (Mar 25, 2022)

So...did anyone have a good season??
I sure as hell did...


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## NYDB (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...did anyone have a good season??
> I sure as hell did...


just wait til it actually snows.  you'll have like 30 powder days, and maybe even venture into the woods


----------



## abc (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...did anyone have a good season??
> I sure as hell did...


What’s with the past tense?


----------



## hovercraft (Mar 25, 2022)

So far so good, more to come……


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## ThatGuy (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...did anyone have a good season??
> I sure as hell did...


Great season…Mother Nature has just been spicy


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## Teleskier (Mar 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> all Epic - IKON hater


> Brighton/Solitude and Snowbird/Alta have much worse traffic than PC.

These mentioned are IKON, no? Likely what he meant by EPIC/IKON.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> > Brighton/Solitude and Snowbird/Alta have much worse traffic than PC.
> 
> These mentioned are IKON, no? Likely what he meant by EPIC/IKON.


The article sections are all epic titles


----------



## machski (Mar 26, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...did anyone have a good season??
> I sure as hell did...


Still having a great season, but yeah mine was made on our two week trip to CO.  Especially the 2nd week with continuous refresher storms.  And for complete transparency, those 2 weeks were all on Epic.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 26, 2022)

Did a lot more on epic than Ikon..but both worked out well so far.
Epic is working out to about $20.00 a day.
Ikon about double that..still good though.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 26, 2022)

Great season so far!  Got some nice snow on our New England Indy trip.  Mount Snow did a pretty good job.  Could use more snowmaking and less paid parking, but they did run more lifts more often then Peak, and the trees were skiable enough for us most of the time.  Also, finally got to ski the mid-west, what could be better than that???  Got a WA/Whistler trip still to come.  If I finally make it to Crystal it will be a big win, I'm the Buffalo Bills so far, 0 for 4 with that place...

Too much snow, road is closed.
Too little snow, resort is closed.
Too much rain, road is washed out.
Too much Covid, passholders only.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 26, 2022)

Need a heli to get around..


----------



## chuckstah (Mar 26, 2022)

Article about how Vail sucks at Whistler, but applies company wide. 









						Maxed Out: Dear Vail Resorts—loyalty is a two-way street
					

Vail Resorts is increasing its minimum wage and committing to affordable housing options—but what's needed in Whistler is a focus on customer service.




					www.piquenewsmagazine.com


----------



## Zermatt (Mar 28, 2022)

Vail is buying majority stake in swiss resort Andermatt. 

Vail Sucks in Switzerland Now


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Vail is buying majority stake in swiss resort Andermatt.
> 
> Vail Sucks in Switzerland Now


Wow.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 28, 2022)

At least the cheese will still be good.


----------



## gittist (Mar 28, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> Vail is buying majority stake in swiss resort Andermatt.
> 
> Vail Sucks in Switzerland Now


I wonder if it'll count as a 'Vail owned' resort so I can use my cheap pass over there?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2022)

gittist said:


> I wonder if it'll count as a 'Vail owned' resort so I can use my cheap pass over there?


Probably.  And after reading the article, I am perplexed how $150 mill buys a majority interest in a company whose owner has invested literally billions (with a "b").  I would expect that the value of the company would be higher but if revenues were low.....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 28, 2022)

Yeah  I would've thought a 55% stake would've cost a lot more than $150 Million


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yeah  I would've thought a 55% stake would've cost a lot more than $150 Million


The $159 mill price, and 55% ownership interest, places the value of the company at $289 million total (149 mill Euros, total value 270.9 mill Euros).  Without knowing more information, such as annual revenue and profit margins, it is hard to know if this is a low price really.  It depends on how the company was valued.  If it is times-revenue, I've seen some industries use a 5x annual revenue figure (but I see it can be as low as 1x or 2x, or lower).  Still, $289 mill value seems low for a resort that size (I rode the Glacier Express through Andermatt and it is an impressive ski resort with a lot of newer lifts and spread over a good-sized area).  Perhaps the deal is like Stowe--only the ski operations are purchased and the hotels and other businesses are not.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 28, 2022)

Says expansion of dining also in the plan..


----------



## machski (Mar 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The $159 mill price, and 55% ownership interest, places the value of the company at $289 million total (149 mill Euros, total value 270.9 mill Euros).  Without knowing more information, such as annual revenue and profit margins, it is hard to know if this is a low price really.  It depends on how the company was valued.  If it is times-revenue, I've seen some industries use a 5x annual revenue figure (but I see it can be as low as 1x or 2x, or lower).  Still, $289 mill value seems low for a resort that size (I rode the Glacier Express through Andermatt and it is an impressive ski resort with a lot of newer lifts and spread over a good-sized area).  Perhaps the deal is like Stowe--only the ski operations are purchased and the hotels and other businesses are not.


Not what I have read.  Unlike many Euro resorts where every piece is owned by different entities, this one sounded more like a NA resort.  Everything was in the business package and Vail gets a piece of it all.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 28, 2022)

Regardless this is a very cheap investment. Something seems odd

Peak resorts bought the 3 snow time resorts in Southcentral PA for $76 Million


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2022)

machski said:


> Not what I have read.  Unlike many Euro resorts where every piece is owned by different entities, this one sounded more like a NA resort.  Everything was in the business package and Vail gets a piece of it all.


Interesting


----------



## Edd (Mar 29, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Says expansion of dining also in the plan..


In NH, they practice contraction of dining options. Expansion, hmm, interesting.


----------



## Zermatt (Mar 29, 2022)

machski said:


> Not what I have read.  Unlike many Euro resorts where every piece is owned by different entities, this one sounded more like a NA resort.  Everything was in the business package and Vail gets a piece of it all.


Correct.  Andermatt is relatively new and much more like a US resort wholly owned by a single entity versus dozens of different interested parties.  They likely control the on mountain dining and ski school.


----------



## doublediamond (Mar 29, 2022)

Remember that when Vail bought Stowe, they only got the mountain operations.  AIG still holds on to the Spruce Peak development, and a lot of land around Tollhouse.

It’s possible Vail only bought 55% of the operations.


----------



## 2Planker (Mar 29, 2022)

Nothin' skiable at WC
Both the Quad & Snowcat are on Wind Hold today.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> Remember that when Vail bought Stowe, they only got the mountain operations.  AIG still holds on to the Spruce Peak development, and a lot of land around Tollhouse.
> 
> It’s possible Vail only bought 55% of the operations.


That's what I thinking regarding the Andermatt deal.  Sounds like that may not be the case.


----------



## hub8 (Mar 29, 2022)

Here is my reading of the press release.

Vail Resorts, Inc. ("Vail Resorts") is acquiring a 55-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG.
ASA will retain a 40-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG

Pre-transaction: ASA (The Andermatt Swiss Alps Group) also owns Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG with its cableways, the catering brand Mountain Food, the Swiss Snowsports School Andermatt, an 18-hole, par-72 championship golf course, and the Andermatt Concert Hall.
Expected EBITDA is CHF 5 million in its fiscal year ending July 31, 2024 (first full year post transaction)

So they bought the majority stake in ski ops, food, golf, and concert hall.  But not the real estate and hotel stuff.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2022)

hub8 said:


> Here is my reading of the press release.
> 
> Vail Resorts, Inc. ("Vail Resorts") is acquiring a 55-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG.
> ASA will retain a 40-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG
> ...


That makes sense.  And lines up with the valuations.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 29, 2022)

So much for Switzerland remaining a neutral country


----------



## RichT (Mar 29, 2022)

hub8 said:


> Here is my reading of the press release.
> 
> Vail Resorts, Inc. ("Vail Resorts") is acquiring a 55-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG.
> ASA will retain a 40-percent ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG
> ...


Who's got the last 5%?


----------



## JimG. (Mar 29, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> So much for Switzerland remaining a neutral country


My mom was Swiss. I'm proud to be a dual national.

I hate that Vail is spreading it's evil tentacles into Switzerland. Vail truly does suck.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 29, 2022)

i know this is a joke about vail, but i cant help but point out that swiss neutrality isn't a thing to be lauded. it was basically an excuse for them to just look the other way when the nazis were marauding thru europe.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2022)

RichT said:


> Who's got the last 5%?


If I had to guess, I would say some local investors.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> If I had to guess, I would say some local investors.



Gotta to remember that in Europe, some of the lifts at a resort are owned by individuals or small groups of investors, not the resort itself and those owners get a fee for each rider.

That may account for some of that 5% as well


----------



## JimG. (Mar 29, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i know this is a joke about vail, but i cant help but point out that swiss neutrality isn't a thing to be lauded. it was basically an excuse for them to just look the other way when the nazis were marauding thru europe.


Who was talking about Swiss neutrality during WW2?

You are such a fucking buzzkill.


----------



## abc (Mar 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i know this is a joke about vail, but i cant help but point out that swiss neutrality isn't a thing to be lauded. it was basically an excuse for them to just look the other way when the nazis were marauding thru europe.


What difference would it have made? 

France, Holland and Belgium didn't "look the other way"... What happened to the Jews living in Holland and France at the time?


----------



## ss20 (Mar 30, 2022)

Guys... the off-season is still at least a month away.  Then we can resume the geo-political ethical debacles of 80 years ago that were halfway across the globe.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 30, 2022)

Vail sux...stay on target...


----------



## trackbiker (Mar 30, 2022)

JimG. said:


> My mom was Swiss. I'm proud to be a dual national.
> 
> I hate that Vail is spreading it's evil tentacles into Switzerland. Vail truly does suck.


The Swiss are going to hate Vail when the American Epic crowds invade their country.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 30, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> The Swiss are going to hate Vail when the American Epic crowds invade their country.


Perspective... there are about 190 million skiers/riders in Europe. There are about 50 million who call themselves skiers/riders in the US (Doesn't mean they're active skiers/riders every year, they just call themselves skiers/riders). About 2 million Epic Passes/pass products were sold last year. While some will travel to Europe to use their Epic's next season, guessing it won't make much of a blip on the radar volume wise at Andermatt next season if one logically thinks about it


----------



## snoseek (Mar 30, 2022)

Anyone ever ski there? How is it?


----------



## gittist (Mar 30, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Anyone ever ski there? How is it?


It's all downhill.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Anyone ever ski there? How is it?


As I said, I rode the Glacier Express through it in 2017.  Like other European areas, it is made up of different "areas" surrounding the town.  The eastern end, which we traversed on the train, has a lot of newer lifts and open terrain.  The town is nice--about an hour or so east of Zermatt.  It is in between St. Moritz and Zermatt.  Nice area but from what I saw not as visited as other areas.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

Willkommen bei Andermatt+Sedrun+Disentis
					

Andermatt+Sedrun+Disentis




					www.andermatt-sedrun-disentis.ch


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2022)

Here's a map.  Looks like they merged with Disentis, which is further east.  Andermatt, proper, is on the far left of this map.  The orange dotted line is the RhB/MGB rail line (the Glacier Express)


----------



## trackbiker (Mar 31, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Perspective... there are about 190 million skiers/riders in Europe. There are about 50 million who call themselves skiers/riders in the US (Doesn't mean they're active skiers/riders every year, they just call themselves skiers/riders). About 2 million Epic Passes/pass products were sold last year. While some will travel to Europe to use their Epic's next season, guessing it won't make much of a blip on the radar volume wise at Andermatt next season if one logically thinks about it


The problem is that anyone with an Epic Pass will only go to Andermatt. I'll be somewhere else.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 31, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> The problem is that anyone with an Epic Pass will only go to Andermatt. I'll be somewhere else.



And that might be what 20k? 30K? 50K people at the absolute most over the course of an entire season?  Not that big of a deal for a resort the size of Andermatt in reality.  My hunch is that until Epic gets more resorts in Europe involved, I would guess that at the end of the season there will be far more Epic Pass scans at Andermatt from people who live in Europe than people who don't live in Europe.

IKON has a much more attractive and plentiful resort portfolio currently to encourage travel to ski/ride Europe for their passholders who don't live in Europe


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

Listen I think Vail is bad for skiing as anyone, but if you think that them buying into this Swiss places is going to ruin it, then you are crazy.  Dr J gave all of the stats.  consider that for a minute.  this isn't a Mount Snow, Okemo, Stowe type of issue...

aren't most of the popular ski areas in the Alps already overrun with people?


----------



## ctdubl07 (Mar 31, 2022)

For us, this is great news. I can't wait to bring my marauding crew of 6 Americans over. I've been waiting for Vail to make an investment where your pass truly covers your access cost. 
Xmas '19 I flew my daughter and wife over to Geneva to meet me and we hit Chamonix for 3 days. About killed me to buy 3, 3 day passes to ski having been conditioned to that point by aggregated passes. 
We specifically chose Chamonix becusse it's rediculously easy to get to straight from airport baggage claim. I see same attraction, albeit Zurich to Ander is a bit further but it makes it a really attractive trip for me....maybe Xmas 2023 once more Ops shit is ironed out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Listen I think Vail is bad for skiing as anyone, but if you think that them buying into this Swiss places is going to ruin it, then you are crazy.  Dr J gave all of the stats.  consider that for a minute.  this isn't a Mount Snow, Okemo, Stowe type of issue...
> 
> aren't most of the popular ski areas in the Alps already overrun with people?



You say that now, but when Vail replaces fine swiss chocolate in the lodges with $8 3 Musketeers bars, you will see the expected transcontinental Vail rage materialize.  I'd say Fondue being replaced by $14 packets of lunchables is on the table as well.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

Great..replace the best mountain food in the world..with chicken fingers and grilled cheese sandwiches.....cant wait....
They better...not.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 31, 2022)

Now watching Vail attempt to bring some structure and order to the European typical lift queue chaos, now that could be very entertaining!


----------



## machski (Mar 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's a map.  Looks like they merged with Disentis, which is further east.  Andermatt, proper, is on the far left of this map.  The orange dotted line is the RhB/MGB rail line (the Glacier Express)


Disentis while linked is still separate and an Epic Pass WILL NOT give you access to those lifts.  You will need to buy a separate ticket to ski Disentis.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Now watching Vail attempt to bring some structure and order to the European typical lift queue chaos, now that could be very entertaining!


Will make for some good you tube vids..


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You say that now, but when Vail replaces fine swiss chocolate in the lodges with $8 3 Musketeers bars, you will see the expected transcontinental Vail rage materialize.  I'd say Fondue being replaced by $14 packets of lunchables is on the table as well.



There is likely some Swiss Law against that!  


Rob Katz be like "We have Swiss Miss Instant Hot Cocoa"!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 31, 2022)

Saw a vid about why Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to invade...apparently this...is false.


----------



## abc (Mar 31, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You say that now, but when Vail replaces fine swiss chocolate in the lodges with $8 3 Musketeers bars, you will see the expected transcontinental Vail rage materialize.  I'd say Fondue being replaced by $14 packets of lunchables is on the table as well.


So what?

Euros dig American food! It’s a change of taste for them. 

And if you count the Americans in McDonald in Europe, you’d also understand why SOME Americans will go over to ski Europe but not eat European food & drink!

I’d say Vail, bring it on!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Oh no...oh no..oh no no no....


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Listen I think Vail is bad for skiing as anyone, but if you think that them buying into this Swiss places is going to ruin it, then you are crazy.  Dr J gave all of the stats.  consider that for a minute.  this isn't a Mount Snow, Okemo, Stowe type of issue...
> 
> aren't most of the popular ski areas in the Alps already overrun with people?


It just means they are spreading their staff etc even thinner. They can’t run small hills in NH they will screw this up too. Fix what you have before expanding, stop acquiring new property. They are becoming the slumlords of the ski industry.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 1, 2022)

Again how many more Americans are going to go to Switzerland to ski this place just because its on the Epic Pass?  It will be negligible to the already millions of people skiing in Europe.  This isn't like taking a day trip from NYC or Boston to a "new" Epic Mountain.  Its an international vacation and we all know that there is a certain income level or at least the willingness to spend on a European vacation because it aint cheap.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 1, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> It just means they are spreading their staff etc even thinner. They can’t run small hills in NH they will screw this up too. Fix what you have before expanding, stop acquiring new property. They are becoming the slumlords of the ski industry.


I can't argue with this, its true.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 1, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> It just means they are spreading their staff etc even thinner. They can’t run small hills in NH they will screw this up too. Fix what you have before expanding, stop acquiring new property. They are becoming the slumlords of the ski industry.


Being a partial owner vs a full owner likely means that you won't see the staff/management types changes that Vail has made when they've fully acquired US resorts.  It's not like they sent throngs of various mid level management folks from their North American properties down to Australia after they fully acquired those properties in the past


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

They will have less of an impact there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2022)

Today’s news:









						Vail Resorts To Ban The Sale of Alcohol Across All Ski Resort Properties
					

So much for après. Vail Resorts announced today that the American mountain resort company will be banning the sale of beer, wine, and booze at all of its 19 properties. The move comes as Vail tries…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Time to go on the wagon.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 1, 2022)

I made a vow to not buy beers in the bar this year and the whole thing has gone off splendidly. Parking lot beers are the best beers. I've saved so much money. Even the beers at cannon are ridiculously overpriced. 

If ski areas sold beer at a somewhat reasonable price I would be onboard.


----------



## Mum skier (Apr 1, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Now watching Vail attempt to bring some structure and order to the European typical lift queue chaos, now that could be very entertaining!


They need to buy a resort in Italy to really test themselves for that aspect.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 1, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> They need to buy a resort in Italy to really test themselves for that aspect.


It's a crap show in Switzerland with lift lines too. No order, just get in there.  Big difference in Italy vs Switzerland is no free bathrooms.  When you board the trams at the top of Zermatt they even warn you about it.

I don't know about Andermatt but all other Swiss mountains are covered in independent on mountain hotels and restaurants.  Like at the top of the mountain.


----------



## elks (Apr 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I made a vow to not buy beers in the bar this year and the whole thing has gone off splendidly. Parking lot beers are the best beers. I've saved so much money. Even the beers at cannon are ridiculously overpriced.
> 
> If ski areas sold beer at a somewhat reasonable price I would be onboard.


If you ever ski Crotched, beware that local cops ticket regularly for open containers in the parking lot.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Ate in an old restaurant on Zermatt...this guy is the true original soup nazi...very entertaining.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I made a vow to not buy beers in the bar this year and the whole thing has gone off splendidly. Parking lot beers are the best beers. I've saved so much money. Even the beers at cannon are ridiculously overpriced.
> 
> If ski areas sold beer at a somewhat reasonable price I would be onboard.



$10 pitchers of PBR at the Goldminer's Daughter.  Never thought I'd find a resort post-2010 that had a full pitcher of beer for that cheap with a ski lift 100 feet away.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

GMD...my favorite place...
Hope it never changes..


----------



## ss20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> GMD...my favorite place...
> Hope it never changes..



The Peruvian is the locals favorite but I prefer the GMD.  We did trivia in there one night.  $5 cover for trivia, appetizer buffet, water/coffee/tea.  $3 PBR tallboys.  By the end of the night people were sitting at their tables making pyramids with the empty cans.... like... 10-15 cans high and equally wide at the base.  

PBR was always my favorite of the cheap beers (before it was cool to like it!).  Now that and the PUB Lager will remind me of Alta forever.... they're party staples 'round these parts.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 1, 2022)

NE's PBR.
Although you can't overlook the fact that Fred Pabst Jr founded Bromley Mt in 1938, and ran it until he retired in 1971


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 1, 2022)

WTF ???  Have they even announced a closing date yet ?  Prob this Sunday...???
Maybe it's an April Fools Day joke...

Attitash Report (from today, 4/1)​ 
Hello Skiers and Riders! Welcome to April; it is also the last Friday of the season.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> $10 pitchers of PBR at the Goldminer's Daughter.  Never thought I'd find a resort post-2010 that had a full pitcher of beer for that cheap with a ski lift 100 feet away.


They say you can't get drunk in Utah lol.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Oh..you can get falling down drunk...in Utah...state liquor stores sell everything...at a price...
Getting a decent old fashion....thats a stretch..


----------



## ss20 (Apr 1, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Oh..you can get falling down drunk...in Utah...state liquor stores sell everything...at a price...
> Getting a decent old fashion....thats a stretch..



Wine isn't overly expensive.  The hard stuff is all on-par with other places I've been.  It's the beer that's a killer.  Even the cheap stuff runs you 70-90 cents a can at bulk.  It's the high-power stuff that SUCKS to buy.  A decent double ipa is $2+ a can.  They had a sale on some special 7.5% Founders Centennial double ipa.... $1.69 a can.  Still a lot.  

Some of the local rums/tequilas/vodkas are cheap.  Like... cheaper than the big brands.  

Interesting map....  I was spoiled being from CT/NY state line.  Beer was pretty much the only cheap thing there  

from CNBC iirc.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> WTF ???  Have they even announced a closing date yet ?  Prob this Sunday...???
> Maybe it's an April Fools Day joke...
> 
> Attitash Report (from today, 4/1)​
> Hello Skiers and Riders! Welcome to April; it is also the last Friday of the season.


Online tickets are only available through April 3.

Edit to add that Sunapee tickets are also only available through the third.


----------



## Mainer (Apr 1, 2022)

I’m pretty sure the attitash closing date has been the same for months, this Sunday. Its the opening date that always gets pushed back.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Wine isn't overly expensive.  The hard stuff is all on-par with other places I've been.  It's the beer that's a killer.  Even the cheap stuff runs you 70-90 cents a can at bulk.  It's the high-power stuff that SUCKS to buy.  A decent double ipa is $2+ a can.  They had a sale on some special 7.5% Founders Centennial double ipa.... $1.69 a can.  Still a lot.
> 
> Some of the local rums/tequilas/vodkas are cheap.  Like... cheaper than the big brands.
> 
> ...


At home I'm stictly a vodka guy...usually with just tonic. NH liquor stores have to be the cheapest Vodka prices ive seen anywhere. I spend more on the mixer


----------



## Mainer (Apr 1, 2022)

wildcat is down to just the bobcat. They are probably done soon. They were supposed to make 2 more weeks.  But it makes me glad I’m not buying epic next year because spring wildcat is my favorite part of that pass.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 1, 2022)

So sad what has become of Wildcat.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 2, 2022)

They ruined it...sux...for no reason...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Online tickets are only available through April 3.
> 
> Edit to add that Sunapee tickets are also only available through the third.


I saw Sunapee closes tomorrrow


----------



## Edd (Apr 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I saw Sunapee closes tomorrrow


Fuck, my options are narrowing fast.


----------



## machski (Apr 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I saw Sunapee closes tomorrrow


Not a surprise there.  Usually are a first weekend of April close.  Maybe 2nd weekend years Easter falls then.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 2, 2022)

Vail sucks.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 3, 2022)

elks said:


> If you ever ski Crotched, beware that local cops ticket regularly for open containers in the parking lot.


Can you really not drink a beer on private property?


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Apr 3, 2022)

elks said:


> If you ever ski Crotched, beware that local cops ticket regularly for open containers in the parking lot.


The Live Free or Die slogan is not true at all.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 3, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Can you really not drink a beer on private property?


I've skied there hundreds of times with plenty of lot beers and never had an issue.  I remember talking to an officer in the lot during the Covid lock down after earning turns while sipping a cold one with no issues. He wanted to know how the snow was and if it was worth the effort.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 3, 2022)

Had lunch with a bunch of locals up on a gun tower at Alta once..patrol was not amused..lol


----------



## Andrew B. (Apr 3, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Wine isn't overly expensive.  The hard stuff is all on-par with other places I've been.  It's the beer that's a killer.  Even the cheap stuff runs you 70-90 cents a can at bulk.  It's the high-power stuff that SUCKS to buy.  A decent double ipa is $2+ a can.  They had a sale on some special 7.5% Founders Centennial double ipa.... $1.69 a can.  Still a lot.
> 
> Some of the local rums/tequilas/vodkas are cheap.  Like... cheaper than the big brands.
> 
> ...


Anyone know why Wyoming so high priced?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 3, 2022)

machski said:


> Not a surprise there.  Usually are a first weekend of April close.  Maybe 2nd weekend years Easter falls then.



When the Mueller's ran it middle of April or later was normal at Sunapee.  I recall skiing there about ten years ago Patriots Day weekend.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Anyone know why Wyoming so high





Andrew B. said:


> Anyone know why Wyoming so high priced?


99% of wyoming is protected state land...everything is high priced there.


----------



## gmcunni (Apr 3, 2022)

Vail didn't suck today


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Apr 3, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> 99% of wyoming is protected state land...everything is high priced there.


Huh? half of Wyoming is Federal land but what does that have do with prices?


----------



## Andrew B. (Apr 3, 2022)

I found this with a quick google

_According to AreaVibes, *the overall cost of living index score for the State of Wyoming is 99, which is one percent lower than the national average*. Affordable home prices, above average incomes, and lower than average unemployment rates make Wyoming a fantastic place for anyone seeking a less expensive lifestyle_


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 3, 2022)

Guess it depends where in wyoming you are.
I spoke with a guy at the jackson welcome center..anything near jackson is expensive..most commute over an hour if they want to work there. Ive never been anywhere else there.
He said the billionairs are pushing out the millionairs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> I found this with a quick google
> 
> _According to AreaVibes, *the overall cost of living index score for the State of Wyoming is 99, which is one percent lower than the national average*. Affordable home prices, above average incomes, and lower than average unemployment rates make Wyoming a fantastic place for anyone seeking a less expensive lifestyle_


I'd wager to say that is skewed by the folks who are second or third homeowners and are wealthy from their trappings elsewhere.  Wyoming is a beautiful state but land prices are expensive unless you are a long ways from the mountains.

And Vail still sucks.


----------



## Andrew B. (Apr 4, 2022)

Still no reason to why a case of beer is ~15% more than anyother continental state and ~25% more than what looks like the average? It’s even $4 cheaper in Hawaii.

According to this it isn’t taxes? They appear to be average to the other states.


			https://www.taxadmin.org/assets/docs/Research/Rates/beer.pdf


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 4, 2022)

Ill find out next time im there.


----------



## Andrew B. (Apr 4, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Ill find out next time im there.


Field research, I like it


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 4, 2022)

Interesting -  WC is OPEN w/ Quad (& Snocat). 

NO ONE answering phones anywhere to answer the closing date question....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Still no reason to why a case of beer is ~15% more than anyother continental state and ~25% more than what looks like the average? It’s even $4 cheaper in Hawaii.
> 
> According to this it isn’t taxes? They appear to be average to the other states.
> 
> ...


You know, I thought that this was the topic but that it got skewed.  \

If I had to guess, it is taxes.  One because it makes the state money, two because there is a pretty good-sized LDS population and their views on booze influence policy.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 4, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Interesting -  WC is OPEN w/ Quad (& Snocat).
> 
> NO ONE answering phones anywhere to answer the closing date question....



*CELEBRATE THE END OF A WILD SEASON*​



Set your edges on some Wildcat corn and celebrate an incredible season with us. It’s been one for the books, and the wild spirit of the ‘Cat has proven to be unbreakable. Carve up that hero snow, and take in views of Tuckerman’s Ravine in fewer layers. On top of it all, make the most of Epic Mountain Rewards with 20% savings on food, lessons, rentals, and more. Mark your calendar, closing day is Sunday, April 10th.​


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 4, 2022)

there is so much wrong with that...


----------



## njdiver85 (Apr 4, 2022)

"one for the books" . . .  LOL


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 4, 2022)

I spilled my coffee reading ....that...


----------



## pinion247 (Apr 4, 2022)

It's not wrong. "One for the books"... _The Official Book of Lowering The Bar For Ski Operations and Services, Then Lowering It Some More: Or How to Make An Entire State Hate You_.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 4, 2022)

Sounds like a crappy book
Im out


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 4, 2022)

Great to see many old WC regulars at places like Shawnee and BW this past weekend.....

Same MO from everyone "Vail completely ruined a NH ski resort that has been an icon for 60+ years"

Also heard that Sysco  is going to break off it's Vail contract. That's gonna hurt, No other game in town...


----------



## cdskier (Apr 4, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Also heard that Sysco  is going to break off it's Vail contract. That's gonna hurt, No other game in town...



Do other companies like PFG or US Foods not serve certain areas that Sysco did?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 4, 2022)

Great..now no food..


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Also heard that Sysco  is going to break off it's Vail contract. That's gonna hurt, No other game in town...


Any reason why?  Late payments/non-payments?


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Do other companies like PFG or US Foods not serve certain areas that Sysco did?


Sysco is the only game in town, unless you wanna go indy and pay up the ass...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 4, 2022)

Guess a bowl of chile will be 25 bucks now...
Ill be living on cliff bars.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Any reason why?  Late payments/non-payments?


I really can't think of any other reason for Sysco to even think about getting rid of a contract that is worth millions...



2Planker said:


> Sysco is the only game in town, unless you wanna go indy and pay up the ass...


I'm assuming you're specifically referring to the NH area (in which case you're looking at this through far too much of a local perspective). I did some quick searching and back in a press release in 2000 it was mentioned that Vail purchased $15M/year from Sysco (and they only owned 4 resorts at the time). Fast forward 20+ years and add in a whole lot more resorts and I'd think they're probably buying over $100M/year from Sysco today. If indeed Sysco is dumping them, I could easily see a competitor like PFG or US Foods jumping on this. Even if they don't have distribution in that area of NH today, it would not at all be surprising to see them start doing it just for Vail if it means landing a contract that size.


----------



## RichT (Apr 4, 2022)

Vail........................the Putin of the ski industry!


----------



## RichT (Apr 4, 2022)

gmcunni said:


> Vail didn't suck today
> View attachment 53958


How could they? Your in Colorado (?) Only thing they gotta do is run the lifts, nature takes care of the rest.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Apr 7, 2022)

Is everyone OK?


----------



## urungus (Apr 7, 2022)

Whistler Employee Asked To Delete Avalanche Pictures By PR Department at Whistler (Vail Resorts)
					

^Caption & Image from Wayne Flann: “Boot hiker initiated this avalanche in Blackcomb Glacier.” UPDATE (4/8/22)- I have now received information that Wayne Flann, the person who capt…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 7, 2022)

Why would they even try to cover something like that up.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 7, 2022)

Vail...is vail...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 7, 2022)

they are so weird...  Avalanche science isn't perfect.  They employ people at these big mountains that know their shit.  Sometimes things happen.  Unless patrol forgot to deal with this area, i.e. negligence,  then chalk it up to the dangers that can still exist skiing high alpine terrain.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 7, 2022)

Why tell skiers about inbound avi danger...they might get...hurt..


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 7, 2022)

I agree that transparency is best, but it's mind boggling that avy control would miss that big of a wind slab on a spot with relatively heavy traffic.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

In bound avis happen here and there. Several at Snowbird through the years. Its tough to control mountains..they have minds..of their own.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 8, 2022)

im not sure if this is the same incident but apparently someone died. i apologize for reposting snowbrains, which is the fucking worst.









						Inbounds Avalanche at Whistler Blackcomb, BC, Kills Local Man - SnowBrains
					

A 34-year-old local man was killed by a class 1 avalanche inbounds at Whistler Blackcomb, BC, on Tuesday 5th April 2022.




					snowbrains.com


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 8, 2022)

Not the same incident.  First one was on blackcomb, one guy caught, no harm, just lost equipment.   This one was on whistler.   A size 1 avy is unlikely to bury you.  Unlucky.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 8, 2022)

Two inbound avalanches in two days,  one death,  trying to bury the first incident...  this is going to add to Vail's annus horribilus..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

Irresponsible...


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 8, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> I agree that transparency is best, but it's mind boggling that avy control would miss that big of a wind slab on a spot with relatively heavy traffic.


I don’t know anything about conditions or anything else related to this incident but slabs like that can develop really quickly during a heavy wind event.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

And its the biggest resort in N America..hard to control...hiding what happened is not the way to go..


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 8, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t know anything about conditions or anything else related to this incident but slabs like that can develop really quickly during a heavy wind event.


True but a slab that big still takes hours of snow transport.  And this is Whistler-blackcomb,  untracked snow lasts minutes...  I bet this slide happened within one hour of the glacier opening.  As to the fatality, it appears it was a cornice breaking.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

Looks like it was under a permanently closed area..steep. It sux but skiing even inbounds in these areas after a big snowfall is risky. Most people believe that its all under control...its not.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 8, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Looks like it was under a permanently closed area..steep. It sux but skiing even inbounds in these areas after a big snowfall is risky. Most people believe that its all under control...its not.


And that’s probably why Vail would prefer to cover it up. Keep people in LaLa land with their Disneyfication of ski resorts.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 8, 2022)

Ive been there twice..Whistler is no joke up there...


----------



## ss20 (Apr 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Looks like it was under a permanently closed area..steep. It sux but skiing even inbounds in these areas after a big snowfall is risky. Most people believe that its all under control...its not.



I was surprised to learn how often in-bounds slides are since starting to work at Alta and keeping in touch with the local area.  I heard of people getting swept up in small slides at Alta and Brighton this year in open, in-bounds terrain.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 9, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I was surprised to learn how often in-bounds slides are since starting to work at Alta and keeping in touch with the local area.  I heard of people getting swept up in small slides at Alta and Brighton this year in open, in-bounds terrain.


I've see them come across the road on the commute. Gets real up there!


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 9, 2022)

Alta and Snowbird are pretty much entirely avi zones...avi forecasting  science was developed there. Avis killed so many miners..they had to do something.  
Its where i took my avi level 1 course..best thing i ever did...helps to know a thing or two when you're out there..


----------



## ss20 (Apr 9, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I've see them come across the road on the commute. Gets real up there!



Yeah pretty much all the 20 year+ veterans here have a story about helping/rescuing/unburying someone on the LCC road.  

It "got real" on a storm in December when they did not close the main road around the Superior slide path.  We were all stuck for a while (it was the longest commute home of the season) right in front of it.  I did not think much of it.  The next day people in the locker room were talking about how they would had their passengers looking up Superior in case of a slide coming, and were furious UDOT routed them that way.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 9, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Alta and Snowbird are pretty much entirely avi zones...avi forecasting  science was developed there. Avis killed so many miners..they had to do something.
> Its where i took my avi level 1 course..best thing i ever did...helps to know a thing or two when you're out there..



Yeah they do Avi 1 courses free for employees in December.  Next season I'll probably do mine.

I got caught in a 10-15ft "snuff" slide on a 30" day in Glory Hole bowl.  Weird, scary feeling.  I wasn't sure if it was a true "slide" til I got to the bottom and you could see my tracks enter, and see them exit, and noticeable debris in between.  Wake-up call for me for sure.  

Nearly everyday I cross over the only permanently closed area at Alta, the snake pit.  There's a few articles online but I've also heard a lot of stories.... a lot of deaths in that small footprint.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 9, 2022)

Skied the comma chute before they closed it due to an avi death in that area.
Tux ravine had the snow slide on me a little..knocks you right down...


----------



## urungus (Apr 10, 2022)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/vermont/comments/twykts


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2022)

urungus said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/vermont/comments/twykts


Yes.  Vermont has, for a long time, banned billboards (or overly large signs).  Honestly, I think it is a good thing.  We drove down to I-15 to Cedar City to get our new pup this weekend and there are too many billboards, including many that are just abandoned and look like shit.  Complete garbage.

This one looks somewhat tasteful but it is probably big enough to qualify as a billboard.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes. Vermont has, for a long time, banned billboards (or overly large signs). Honestly, I think it is a good thing.


I live right on the NY/VT border and it always amuses me driving the last stretch of Rt4 before VT all the billboards crammed on the road. Then you get to Fair Haven and realize how great it is that billboards are banned.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I live right on the NY/VT border and it always amuses me driving the last stretch of Rt4 before VT all the billboards crammed on the road. Then you get to Fair Haven and realize how great it is that billboards are banned.


So true.  Same as one heads north on I-91.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 10, 2022)

NH allows billboards but they can’t cut any trees if they start blocking them. The only place you really see them is on rt 3 between the boarder and Manchester. May be a few out by the sea coast as well along 95 and 16


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2022)

So.....who is renewing and who is jumping ship when it comes to Epic?  Be honest......


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2022)

I jumped ship prior to this season and will be staying on the sidelines for next.

I could see myself committing to some Epic Day Passes in the future to ski Stowe and Wildcat again some day; especially at the current prices. But I don't see a scenario where I trust them enough to go for a full season pass commitment.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> NH allows billboards but they can’t cut any trees if they start blocking them. The only place you really see them is on rt 3 between the boarder and Manchester. May be a few out by the sea coast as well along 95 and 16



I wasn't sure what the rules are here in NH, but thankfully there are so few.  Wouldn't mind NH following VT and ME with a ban.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 10, 2022)

I’m renewing my Northeast Midweek Pass.
Can’t pass on it since under $400 gets access to all of Peaks old portfolio+Stowe.
Mount Snow hasn’t seen the level of incompetence and mistreatment the NH properties have thankfully.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 10, 2022)

Epic and ikon again


----------



## machski (Apr 10, 2022)

Passing on Epic next season, NEP silvers and unrestricted Indy's for us next year.  To go back to Epic, Vail has to show me they will operate Crotched 7 days and at least 5 nights a week.  With the low open times this season, our use of the Epic was way below what we imagined.  The west 2 week CO trip went off well and made the Local worth it alone, but we are not planning on heading west next season.  Though we may make a short trip with the Indy.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 10, 2022)

Already renewed Indy and will likely grudgingly renew Epic Northeast midweek. It works to well for me not to. Crotched at under an hour and Sunapee just over an hour works. Just my random Stowe days pretty much cover the cost. Add a handful of Snow or Okemo midweek groomer days, can't not do it. Midweek is not terrible. Hopefully the MWV areas recover to add more value, but not holding my breath.


----------



## kendo (Apr 11, 2022)

Epic


----------



## JimG. (Apr 11, 2022)

All those who renew Epic passes automatically have their posting privileges in the "VAIL SUCKS" thread revoked.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 11, 2022)

when you don't have a choice that seems a little aggressive...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 11, 2022)




----------



## jaytrem (Apr 11, 2022)

JimG. said:


> All those who renew Epic passes automatically have their posting privileges in the "VAIL SUCKS" thread revoked.


So only people who auto-renew will have their privileges revoked?  

Since we have a place at Mount Snow I'll be renewing.  Luckily they did a pretty good job there, especially with lift hours.  Not sure what I would do if we had a place in NH.  Tough situation.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 11, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> when you don't have a choice that seems a little aggressive...


Well I do sympathize with folks who have no choice. That really does suck.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 11, 2022)

So...i wont be burned?
Thats good


----------



## zyk (Apr 11, 2022)

I'm out but don't have a plan.  Would like somewhere with an Indy add on but nothing is close.  Probably a midweek gore pass but would rather travel than do long day trips.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 11, 2022)

Musta been another great year to work for Vail in NH.

Everyone I ever knew at WC/AT is now working for SR, Shawnee, BW or King Pine.
 2 more Patrol Directors jumped ship 1 day after their last paycheck was issued


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 12, 2022)

Lady on the lift the other dsy at Stowe did bring up something i haven't thought about. Stowe has no events..ever. No music.. pond skimming..festivals...nada...


----------



## drjeff (Apr 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Lady on the lift the other dsy at Stowe did bring up something i haven't thought about. Stowe has no events..ever. No music.. pond skimming..festivals...nada...



Stowe does though, through its sister Epic Resorts, have numerous experienced Events Crews, that they could pick the brains of with a simple email or phone call, about what they need to do to pull some Events like that off if they want to, and not just for Winter season events either


----------



## kendo (Apr 12, 2022)

Stowe has the Sugar slalom (last weekend on Spruce).  Could turn it into a resort wide spring fling... dummy race for the kids, pond skim, music, food, beer, etc.   https://mmsca.org/events/sugar-slalom/  but then it'd get too popular, parking would be limited and peeps would be upset!    Let just ski instead.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 12, 2022)

kendo said:


> Stowe has the Sugar slalom (last weekend on Spruce).  Could turn it into a resort wide spring fling... dummy race for the kids, pond skim, music, food, beer, etc.   https://mmsca.org/events/sugar-slalom/ but then it'd get too popular, parking would be limited and peeps would be upset! Let just ski instead.


One could make the case that the Sugar SL is already, and has been for a while, too popular, as that registration list sells out quickly when it goes live every year.  Heck,  I know the 1st 2 years I tried to get my kids registered for it, by the time I got around to it, it was sold out already.

Especially amongst the ski academy athletes and their parents, that is a "must do" race/party every season


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 12, 2022)

Hmm.i missed it..too busy skiing..


----------



## RichT (Apr 12, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Lady on the lift the other dsy at Stowe did bring up something i haven't thought about. Stowe has no events..ever. No music.. pond skimming..festivals...nada...


Hunter used to have events all summer and the fall plus stuff during ski season...................now no a single event, shit they have a whole snowtubing area that hasn't been used at all. Here's another kicker, the TV's in the lodge were off most of the winter, including during the winter Olympics.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 12, 2022)

if they are overcrowded every operating weekend and already have your epic pass money, why spend anything on events


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 12, 2022)

The best Stowe event was unofficial and for the locals in the know.  It was called the Prohibition Party and named so because booze was smuggled through Smuggler's Notch during prohibition.

Ski Patrol would rope off Chin Clip a midweek day, the last week the gondola spun for the season. The mountain would haul kegs and grills up on Groomers.  Just out of view from where Chin Clip was roped, the party would get started first Gondola and go until sunset.  

That ended around 2004.  Basically when Big Spruce development started to take off.  It was sort of the unofficial end to Stowe as an unwashed ski bum mountain.  Even though the town was always exclusive and higher end,  it was still heavily populated with ski bum houses and your party hard culture. The mountain was a lot rougher around the edges too.  I miss it that way


----------



## catskillman (Apr 12, 2022)

RichT said:


> Hunter used to have events all summer and the fall plus stuff during ski season...................now no a single event, shit they have a whole snowtubing area that hasn't been used at all. Here's another kicker, the TV's in the lodge were off most of the winter, including during the winter Olympics.


Snowtubing is history at Hunter, that is going to be parking next season. Great that they will be able have even more people in lift lines with increased parking.....

Octoberfest is back in an undetermined format this fall however.


----------



## catskillman (Apr 12, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if they are overcrowded every operating weekend and already have your epic pass money, why spend anything on events


exactly.  Hunter had a few races this year, but they were mostly kept secret.  That Chef's club has released race dates at Hunter for next season already though


----------



## zyk (Apr 13, 2022)

Ok so I don't understand the lack of off season events.  The first events I have this year (not Vail related) should bring in scary beverage money.  I have a target and it is not small.  Sometimes I wonder if corporations just miss opportunities...


----------



## ss20 (Apr 13, 2022)

Remember folks there is a staffing shortage... employees leave in the winter, tough to fill a few dozen jobs for a few one-off weekend events in the summer.  The big summer players- Killington, Cranmore, etc can find a few extra guys but that's tough if you're a place like Stowe that has a relatively small summer operating footprint (weddings, small mountain bike park, and gondola rides, iirc?).  

As far as winter events, you either have to do zero or go all-out.  In between doesn't really work for profit.


----------



## Teleskier (Apr 13, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Hmm.i missed it..too busy skiing..


Sadly... I did read the website event page that morning before first chair to get the published hours, planned ahead when to pause my skiing in the day to head over there, went there well within the listed times, only to find... it had all ended two hours ago, and I paused my skiing for nothing. I suppose that's what I get for trying to "fit" it in.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 13, 2022)

Is Attitash going to be open this summer? They’ve had 2 or 3 years now to figure out how to staff it…


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 13, 2022)

They got rid of tubing at Hunter?
Thats a shame..lot of people used to go there..


----------



## snoseek (Apr 13, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Is Attitash going to be open this summer? They’ve had 2 or 3 years now to figure out how to staff it…


Right? That place has to pull a profit at least on weekends.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 13, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Remember folks there is a staffing shortage... employees leave in the winter, tough to fill a few dozen jobs for a few one-off weekend events in the summer.  The big summer players- Killington, Cranmore, etc can find a few extra guys but that's tough if you're a place like Stowe that has a relatively small summer operating footprint (weddings, small mountain bike park, and gondola rides, iirc?).



I'm not so sure if I would consider Stowe's summer operating footprint relatively small. I'd say they're one of the larger ones relatively speaking as far as VT ski areas go as they offer quite a bit in the summer. They have to staff for Toll House access, Gondola Rides, the Tree-top Adventure course, the Zip Line (which has 3 separate segments so you're talking several staff per each segment alone...plus the staff at the base giving out equipment and doing the required demos/training). 

Although all this has nothing to do with not hosting events as simple and common as pond skimming in the winter season...


----------



## urungus (Apr 13, 2022)

There used to be the end of season snowball fight until Vail shut it down


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 13, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Is Attitash going to be open this summer? They’ve had 2 or 3 years now to figure out how to staff it…


Highly doubt it.  No maintenance of anything over the last 2 years and no job posting at all so far...


----------



## drjeff (Apr 13, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Highly doubt it.  No maintenance of anything over the last 2 years and no job posting at all so far...


And the "see you next Winter" line up on their main webpage, sure seems to infer that once again there will be no Summer ops at Attitash this year


----------



## catskillman (Apr 13, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> They got rid of tubing at Hunter?
> Thats a shame..lot of people used to go there..


yep - need more parking to appease the town as traffic is always backed up on the 2 lane road.  Hours at times and people just park anywhere. Need more spaces and it will give them more spaces to charge for in 2024.  That is the plan.

Tubing was great.  There were always family's there, grandparents etc....  they could watch the kids, if you don't ski, or can't keep up with kids, tubing was perfect !!  That was one thing that was done right.  Firepit and chairs, small lodge with hot chocolate and quick hot food.  They only need a handful of people to run it and they could just do it with vending machines for refreshments and tickets vending ...

Vail does not want any work.  They want to supply the minimum and just sell season passes and reconcile their bank statements....


----------



## raisingarizona (Apr 13, 2022)

catskillman said:


> yep - need more parking to appease the town as traffic is always backed up on the 2 lane road.  Hours at times and people just park anywhere. Need more spaces and it will give them more spaces to charge for in 2024.  That is the plan.
> 
> Tubing was great.  There were always family's there, grandparents etc....  they could watch the kids, if you don't ski, or can't keep up with kids, tubing was perfect !!  That was one thing that was done right.  Firepit and chairs, small lodge with hot chocolate and quick hot food.  They only need a handful of people to run it and they could just do it with vending machines for refreshments and tickets vending ...
> 
> Vail does not want any work.  They want to supply the minimum and just sell season passes and reconcile their bank statements....


A tubing park not connected to a functioning ski area could be a good business I bet. That old, closed ski area down the road from Hunter could be a good property for such a thing maybe. Was that place called Highmont or something like that?


----------



## cdskier (Apr 13, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> A tubing park not connected to a functioning ski area could be a good business I bet. That old, closed ski area down the road from Hunter could be a good property for such a thing maybe. Was that place called Highmont or something like that?


Highmount is adjacent to Belleayre (and Belleayre has had an expansion plan into the Highmount terrain as part of their master plan for a while). That's about 30 minutes from Hunter though. Is that the one you're thinking of? Or is there a different closed ski area closer to Hunter?


----------



## kendo (Apr 13, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> A tubing park not connected to a functioning ski area could be a good business I bet. That old, closed ski area down the road from Hunter could be a good property for such a thing maybe. Was that place called Highmont or something like that?



Cortina Mountain Resort... 









						42°11'19.8"N 74°07'10.9"W · 227 Clum Hill Rd, Tannersville, NY 12485
					

227 Clum Hill Rd, Tannersville, NY 12485




					goo.gl


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 13, 2022)

Anyone with a few million to spare could build one.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 13, 2022)

Well, it's good to see Vail still sucks.


----------



## danimals (Apr 13, 2022)

I'm not shocked that they would remove tubing to put in a parking lot. But something that I wish would catch on are parking garages at areas. Not super tall ones, even just a two floor garage could double the space any area has. Then vail could charge for parking and not have to pay an attendant if its automated. Something like this would not look out of place at a resort.


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## Smellytele (Apr 13, 2022)

Jay and Stratton have parking garages. Vail itself has parking garages.


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## Edd (Apr 13, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Jay and Stratton have parking garages. Vail itself has parking garages.


Jay does? I missed that on my last visit, which we stayed at the Tram Haus so I assume it was built by then.

Tremblant has at least one, which was under the condo-ish complex I stayed at.  Blackomb had many underneath the condos nearby.  That was maybe 2005 that I visited; I'd never been to any ski area with a garage at that point.


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## cdskier (Apr 13, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Is Attitash going to be open this summer? They’ve had 2 or 3 years now to figure out how to staff it…



Confirmed that the answer is no by the letter they released this afternoon from their GM:




> A letter from the GM:
> 
> Hi everyone, my name is Brandon Swartz and I am the new General Manager here at Attitash Mountain Resort. I first off want to thank the community and the team here at the resort for welcoming me with open arms. It has been an amazing first 60 days in my role, and I have experienced firsthand the amazing level of dedication and passion that everyone has for this resort. I very much look forward to settling down and raising my family here in the Mount Washington Valley.
> 
> ...


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 13, 2022)

Almost none of their maintenance and construction projects use the same type of worker as summer attractions.  Decades long legacy of summer family fun at Attitash that Vail just doesn't care about.  I rode those waterslides in the 80s.  

Such a shame


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## 2Planker (Apr 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Almost none of their maintenance and construction projects use the same type of worker as summer attractions.  Decades long legacy of summer family fun at Attitash that Vail just doesn't care about.  I rode those waterslides in the 80s.
> 
> Such a shame


I know.  Vail crushed everything that WC had started over the last 6-7 years.  AT's summer activities go back more than 40 years.
More Chamber businesses Pissed Off at Vail...

At least we still have Santa's Village and Storyland for the kids.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 13, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I know.  Vail crushed everything that WC had started over the last 6-7 years.  AT's summer activities go back more than 40 years.
> More Chamber businesses Pissed Off at Vail...
> 
> At least we still have Santa's Village and Storyland for the kids.


Don't overlook cranmore. Took the kids last summer and had a good time. They were sold out several times we looked, got tickets on a rainy day and they were still busy.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 13, 2022)

Vail appeara to have cut the summer attractions at Roundtop as well.  I know it was profitable under Snowtime.  They did bring the summer camps back which were HUGE money makers.

I will give the current Attitash GM some credit for being transparent with their plans and implementing a plan to fix their lifts.  Sure this shouldn't even potentially be a thing, but it at least appears their trying to fix things.  I'd still be pissed if I was a local until results are seen.  He'll I always wanted to check out AttiCat but not until there is change


----------



## PAabe (Apr 13, 2022)

Edd said:


> Jay does? I missed that on my last visit, which we stayed at the Tram Haus so I assume it was built by then.
> 
> Tremblant has at least one, which was under the condo-ish complex I stayed at.  Blackomb had many underneath the condos nearby.  That was maybe 2005 that I visited; I'd never been to any ski area with a garage at that point.


The Jay one is pretty discreet.  I have always thought paved lots and garages at ski areas were obnoxious but the jay one is well done, you don't even notice it except from the back, and it keeps them from having to develop more areas into parking.

I've not been to jay before the development but that whole tramside complex isn't super obnoxious in my opinion, I mean I like the original Tram haus style better but it's not like those mega 6 story Grand Summit Hotels





__





						PeakCM | ProView
					

's Tram Parking Deck at Jay Peak Resort by  in   , VT



					www.thebluebook.com


----------



## ss20 (Apr 14, 2022)

Parking garages at ski areas are hideous.  End of story.  Only they could get approved with modern permitting is if the resort's pay an absurd amount of money to make them discreet (I believe it was Mt Snow that had this issue in trying to get one in permitted...50/50 shot that's accurate).  I pass one at Snowbird everyday it sticks out like a sore thumb even with the backdrop of their goliath concrete structures in the village.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 14, 2022)

The one at Stowe,Spruce peak condos is totaly buried..never know its there. Not something most people use except if you rent or live their. But i think anyone can pay to use it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 14, 2022)

I've brought this up before and it was not well received.  I always thought, even pre-vail, that the Mansfield lot could be a double decker.  the "ski slopes" are "one level" up from the current lot.   If anyone could afford to make it "discrete" its Vail. You'd have to start it west of the Mansfield lodge, since its historic, but it could be done and would go a long way in solving their parking issues.   Flame away AZ


----------



## urungus (Apr 14, 2022)

Bolton Valley and Jackson Gore at Okemo also have  garages but I believe you have to be a condo owner or staying at hotel to use them


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 14, 2022)

I think its tough to do anything in Stowe. Lot of opposition..to anything.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I've brought this up before and it was not well received.  I always thought, even pre-vail, that the Mansfield lot could be a double decker.  the "ski slopes" are "one level" up from the current lot.   If anyone could afford to make it "discrete" its Vail. You'd have to start it west of the Mansfield lodge, since its historic, but it could be done and would go a long way in solving their parking issues.   Flame away AZ



ive always preached that stowe should massively expand parking at toll house, move most ski school functions there from spruce, and put a high speed quad linking it to the rest of the mountain. toll house is wildly underutilized IMO bc of the slow chair. i like your idea too, especially since you'd basically just be putting a second level of parking above the existing parking which is already in a 'ditch' 15-20 feet below the lift terminal. to a lesser extent sugarbush could do the same and bury a layer of the A-C lots, which would put their elevation more in line with the castlerock pub and main lincoln peak plaza

i have zero issue with modern parking garages at ski areas. it solves a logistical problem. the ski areas are already eyesores massively taking away from the natural mountain environment - a parking structure won't change that much, especially if its designed discretely or buried underground. id rather park in a paved lot than trudge thru mud in the spring. whenever i ski stratton and sun bowl is not open, i make sure i am in the structure. if i have to take a shuttle from lot 2 i have already failed the day.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 14, 2022)

The reality is that unless a resort is doing a major say base village type development, that if one is to put in a parking garage, and they can get it through permitting, then it's basically a guarentee in tis day and age that it will be a paid parking facility, which as we have seen quite well here on AZ brings about it's own degree of controversy, Especially when one considers that that multi million dollar structure won't be fully utilized probably 325 days or so a year, and isn't exactly something that the resort can/will use from a marketing perspective that will help lure more customers to the mountain


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 14, 2022)

I believe AIG owns the land..would have to go through them first...then the rest of Stowe would chime in..i bet negatively..


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 14, 2022)

I think AIG still owns everything except the lifts and mountain ops.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 14, 2022)

Bet we don't get new parking..


----------



## Mum skier (Apr 14, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> I noticed Vail announced that Vail would extend opening to 1st May.
> Now given we will probably ditch Epic after this year, and given that I have never skied at Vail (done Beaver Creek, Keystone and Steamboat in CO), and given that the kids have the week starting 18th April off school, should we make the effort to ski Vail once before moving to other pastures.
> How much might still be open and how busy would it likely be as it’s Easter weekend. Unfortunately I start a new job in a couple weeks, so I can hardly take the full week off so it would be something like leave Thursday before Good Friday return Tuesday or Weds after Easter Monday. So a holiday and a weekend and probably limited terrain. Recipe for disaster?


Thanks to those that answered.  We are leaving tonight for 4 and a half days skiing. Staying right in Vail but will have a car and maybe will do Breckenridge one day.  Wish us luck! I’ll report back.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ive always preached that stowe should massively expand parking at toll house, move most ski school functions there from spruce, and put a high speed quad linking it to the rest of the mountain. toll house is wildly underutilized IMO bc of the slow chair. i like your idea too, especially since you'd basically just be putting a second level of parking above the existing parking which is already in a 'ditch' 15-20 feet below the lift terminal. to a lesser extent sugarbush could do the same and bury a layer of the A-C lots, which would put their elevation more in line with the castlerock pub and main lincoln peak plaza



Stowe would also need to add snow-making to the toll house area to do what you suggest. No way you could even think about moving any ski school functions there if you have to depend on natural snow on terrain at that elevation. 

As for Sugarbush...I don't really see a need for any parking garages at SB. If all the existing SB parking is filled, then realistically the resort is pretty much at capacity and there's no value in trying to get more people on the mountain at that point. SB seems to have a pretty good amount of parking for the capacity of the resort.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 14, 2022)

There ya go...parking should equate to hill capacity.


----------



## machski (Apr 14, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Stowe would also need to add snow-making to the toll house area to do what you suggest. No way you could even think about moving any ski school functions there if you have to depend on natural snow on terrain at that elevation.
> 
> As for Sugarbush...I don't really see a need for any parking garages at SB. If all the existing SB parking is filled, then realistically the resort is pretty much at capacity and there's no value in trying to get more people on the mountain at that point. SB seems to have a pretty good amount of parking for the capacity of the resort.


Yup, Toll House would need snowmaking to make it a viable base area.  That would be step one IMHO before doing anything else down there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Almost none of their maintenance and construction projects use the same type of worker as summer attractions.  Decades long legacy of summer family fun at Attitash that Vail just doesn't care about.  I rode those waterslides in the 80s.
> 
> Such a shame


Completely agree.  Attitash was always a four-season resort.  A lot of condo and vacation homeowners counted on that too.


----------



## RH29 (Apr 14, 2022)

urungus said:


> Bolton Valley and Jackson Gore at Okemo also have  garages but I believe you have to be a condo owner or staying at hotel to use them


Bolton Valley has a garage? I've never seen it there, although maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place lol.

As for ski area parking garages in general, I'm not all that opposed to them. Jay Peak is a perfect example of how discrete and useful they can be. The one next to the Ice Haus is virtually invisible from most sides, and the parking deck near the Hotel Jay is even more useful, because it keeps the lot flat while increasing capacity. 
Stowe would be a logical place for a Jay-style parking deck, because of the uphill trek needed to get from the lot to the lifts. I doubt it would be allowed, though.
My initial thought is that a garage would be very useful at Mount Snow, but then again, crowds are bad enough there as it is. With new high-capacity lifts, things might be improved a bit, but increasing parking capacity would just make the problem worse all over again.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 14, 2022)

As @drjeff correctly pointed out, ROI is another factor.  How many days a year is your multi-million dollar parking garage going to be needed to park cars and get capacity to 100%?  15 days?  20?  And it's not like these things last forever.... concrete and steel in a winter environment getting salt on it every day from parked cars 5 months of the year.  A fixed grip lift is going to last longer and give the resort more ROI.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2022)

The town of Stowe recently denied parking expansion at Stowe down near the Nordic Center.  I'll be curious if the mountain gets any expansion approved as there's major resistance to encouraging more traffic on 108.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 15, 2022)

They may not encoursge it..but it shows up. So if they like 8 mile traffic jams..keep opposing everything..its not going to just go away.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 15, 2022)

^^^^ Exactly ^^^^

The crowds are there, Vail isn't changing their business model, and something needs done.

Maybe more limitations on available days on the pass would help some, but not enough to make a difference.  The road isn't getting widened and the pinch point is at the top.  

There were crowds before Vail let's not pretend Stowe was some sleepy unknown ski area prior to 2017...  

But as @drjeff pointed out what is the ROI?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2022)

All I'm saying is they have tried to expand and were denied already.  Yes it's always been busy, but it wouldn't surprise me if the skier visits are up 30% from 20 years ago.  Not a lot of information available, so that's a guess.  But I certainly never sat in hour long traffic jams when I was living there 20 years ago. 

My guess is most locals whether right or wrong, probably want to see the mountain invest in expanded local shuttle service vs trying to accommodate more cars.


----------



## urungus (Apr 15, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Bolton Valley has a garage? I've never seen it there, although maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place lol.


----------



## abc (Apr 15, 2022)

I was looking for information when Mount Snow's end of season date is, was struck by this on their main page:

"..Mount Snow specializes in *lighthearted entertainment, *providing a* distraction from the everyday grind*. "

So it's not just an impression. It's their stated goal to made the mountain a Disney land.


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## drjeff (Apr 15, 2022)

abc said:


> I was looking for information when Mount Snow's end of season date is, was struck by this on their main page:
> 
> "..Mount Snow specializes in *lighthearted entertainment, *providing a* distraction from the everyday grind*. "
> 
> So it's not just an impression. It's their stated goal to made the mountain a Disney land.


They are hoping to make next Sunday, the 24th for closing day. Going to likely be close depending on what the weather is next week. 

Daily updates on their webpage, and closing will be announced on their social media feeds if they can't make it to the 24th


----------



## abc (Apr 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> They are hoping to make next Sunday, the 24th for closing day. Going to likely be close depending on what the weather is next week.
> 
> Daily updates on their webpage, and closing will be announced on their social media feeds if they can't make it to the 24th


But it looks like the only runs open are for the park rats?


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## PAabe (Apr 15, 2022)

urungus said:


> View attachment 54120


the ultimate discrete parking garage and unoffensive base complex
Also I had no idea that that parking loop was paved lol being covered in snow and mud


----------



## njdiver85 (Apr 15, 2022)

abc said:


> But it looks like the only runs open are for the park rats?


There are no features on Deer Run/Gulch).  And Nitro/Fools Gold has plenty of room on skiers left and right if you don't want to do the features.  Plus, the features may get nixed as they get closer to April 24th to spread the snow.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 15, 2022)

abc said:


> But it looks like the only runs open are for the park rats?


4 Runs with ~800ft Vert


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## drjeff (Apr 15, 2022)

abc said:


> But it looks like the only runs open are for the park rats?


Some of the runs have had their features plowed out and are open as non parks, and have been since they went Carinthia only a couple of weeks ago.

Snowreport doesn't reflect this reality at all though


----------



## drjeff (Apr 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> 4 Runs with ~800ft Vert


GPS tracker that I use gets just under 1k feet for the Nitro lift and has done that number for years now


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## ThatGuy (Apr 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> GPS tracker that I use gets just under 1k feet for the Nitro lift and has done that number for years now


I was thinking of Heavy Metal, either way not really worth it for me personally. Wish they let one of the runs bump up then it would be more enticing.


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## drjeff (Apr 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I was thinking of Heavy Metal, either way not really worth it for me personally. Wish they let one of the runs bump up then it would be more enticing.


Heavy Metal is about 600 vertical.

And the reality is with what is open still, not really enough stuff with enough pitch to get some decent Spring bumps, especially once Inferno melted out a few days ago


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## abc (Apr 16, 2022)

It just struck me the Vail portfolio in the northeast doesn't have any that can go into late season. Never mind fun in the spring. 

While Alterra has Killington and Sunday River. Not to mention Sugarloaf. 

This is the only FULL season I'm on the Vail sphere (pandemic year doesn't count). I'm suddenly see their limitations. That explains why I've never seriously consider Epic in the past. Not as the only pass anyway.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 16, 2022)

abc said:


> It just struck me the Vail portfolio in the northeast doesn't have any that can go into late season. Never mind fun in the spring.
> 
> While Alterra has Killington and Sunday River. Not to mention Sugarloaf.
> 
> This is the only FULL season I'm on the Vail sphere (pandemic year doesn't count). I'm suddenly see their limitations. That explains why I've never seriously consider Epic in the past. Not as the only pass anyway.


With some focus and a decent snow year wildcat could and has gone pretty deep into may


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## eatskisleep (Apr 16, 2022)

snoseek said:


> With some focus and a decent snow year wildcat could and has gone pretty deep into may


Exactly. And in reality Attitash could too, but never really has. It is steep enough for good spring bump skiing. I’ve skied Wildcat in May… all it takes is good management.


----------



## slatham (Apr 16, 2022)

abc said:


> It just struck me the Vail portfolio in the northeast doesn't have any that can go into late season. Never mind fun in the spring.
> 
> While Alterra has Killington and Sunday River. Not to mention Sugarloaf.
> 
> This is the only FULL season I'm on the Vail sphere (pandemic year doesn't count). I'm suddenly see their limitations. That explains why I've never seriously consider Epic in the past. Not as the only pass anyway.


Alterra also has Stratton going until Sunday and Sugarbush going to May 1.


----------



## PAabe (Apr 16, 2022)

Big Boulder can be the last open south of ny... Vail didn't even try to make a go away it

Stratton is helped by its elevation


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## abc (Apr 16, 2022)

snoseek said:


> With some focus and a decent snow year wildcat could and has gone pretty deep into may


That’s pre-Vail though...


eatskisleep said:


> I’ve skied Wildcat in May… all it takes is good management.


So had I in Wildcat. But Vail “management” has done wonders for Wildcat! By turning it into a nothing special mountain.


----------



## machski (Apr 16, 2022)

abc said:


> It just struck me the Vail portfolio in the northeast doesn't have any that can go into late season. Never mind fun in the spring.
> 
> While Alterra has Killington and Sunday River. Not to mention Sugarloaf.
> 
> This is the only FULL season I'm on the Vail sphere (pandemic year doesn't count). I'm suddenly see their limitations. That explains why I've never seriously consider Epic in the past. Not as the only pass anyway.


They have several they can go with late.  Wildcat has shown it can and so can Stowe.  It's all about the will and Vail doesn't have it apparently.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 16, 2022)

Yes, sad really!


----------



## thebigo (Apr 16, 2022)

PAabe said:


> Big Boulder can be the last open south of ny... Vail didn't even try to make a go away it
> 
> Stratton is helped by its elevation


Elevation matters early season. Elevation has absolutely nothing to do with late season. Only factor late season is managerial competence.

Edit - for those who say there is no money to be made late season, I am sitting in a full Bunyan room with 100+ other like minded souls sipping $8 beer out of plastic cups on a day it was forecast to rain.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 16, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Exactly. And in reality Attitash could too, but never really has. It is steep enough for good spring bump skiing. I’ve skied Wildcat in May… all it takes is good management.


I got married at the top of Wildcat on Friday May 1, 2015. Place was open and spring conditions were great !!  I think  they closed on Sun. May 3 that year


----------



## snoseek (Apr 16, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I got married at the top of Wildcat on Friday May 1, 2015. Place was open and spring conditions were great !!  I think  they closed on Sun. May 3 that year


I came back after a tragic year in Tahoe and skied the hell out of wildcat. It was redemption and made my year!


----------



## oldfartrider (Apr 16, 2022)

You picked the best year to get married there. Last year they made May previous was 07. In fact from 00 to 2010 they only made May in 07


----------



## ss20 (Apr 16, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Elevation matters early season. Elevation has absolutely nothing to do with late season. Only factor late season is managerial competence.



I'm gonna disagree with that.  Higher elevation and colder temps absolutely make a difference late season.  Maybe not in the daytime, but at night...sure thing.  Every night you can get below 30 degrees is a win, and having the base of Superstar at 2,600 feet versus 2,000 feet for Steins at SB makes a big difference.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 16, 2022)

Elevation and what direction the terrain faces are probably the two most important factors in snowpack durability.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 16, 2022)

One only needs to drive up the auto road in spring to see that elevation is clearly a factor in natural snowfall retention. Depth of snow is the single biggest factor in man made snow retention by a significant margin.  Exposure is second, elevation third.

Wildcat base elevation is what 1000' higher than loon? Yet loon was open today with ample coverage while the cat was closed. Same with Sunday river.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 16, 2022)

oldfartrider said:


> You picked the best year to get married there. Last year they made May previous was 07. In fact from 00 to 2010 they only made May in 07





oldfartrider said:


> You picked the best year to get married there. Last year they made May previous was 07. In fact from 00 to 2010 they only made May in 07


Yup.Best part was that they were still open,  so we didn't have to Pay to rent the Lift, Lifties, Patrol... 
Even the Justice and the Bagpiper were Passholders


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 16, 2022)

thebigo said:


> One only needs to drive up the auto road in spring to see that elevation is clearly a factor in natural snowfall retention. Depth of snow is the single biggest factor in man made snow retention by a significant margin.  Exposure is second, elevation third.
> 
> Wildcat base elevation is what 1000' higher than loon? Yet loon was open today with ample coverage while the cat was closed. Same with Sunday river.


Was just at Okemo where there had piles of snow still…pathetic that Vail would waste it there over Wildcat. Then they would have a late season player to counter IKON, could sell a lot of passes on that alone…


----------



## abc (Apr 16, 2022)

thebigo said:


> for those who say there is no money to be made late season,...


When it's late April and people are considering next year's pass, your competitor has several mountain open and you have none, you know it's going to hurt next year's sale...

Not that I had that much doubt in switching back to Ikon next year. But if I had any doubt, this situation right now would remove any of those doubts.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

abc said:


> When it's late April and people are considering next year's pass, your competitor has several mountain open and you have none, you know it's going to hurt next year's sale...
> 
> Not that I had that much doubt in switching back to Ikon next year. But if I had any doubt, this situation right now would remove any of those doubts.


The vast majority of folks buying passes these days, as witnessed by the lack of crowds at those resorts still open right now, frankly could care less about who is still open now as they're deciding on what pass to buy for next year.

Heck, it seems like way more of them are here at the theme parks in Orlando where I have been waiting in lines and dealing with mechanical induced ride down times with my family the last few days (sounds like a familiar concept to many of us skiers/riders ) for about what it costs per day for a higher end lift ticket. Orlando is packed right now!


----------



## cdskier (Apr 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The vast majority of folks buying passes these days, as witnessed by the lack of crowds at those resorts still open right now, frankly could care less about who is still open now as they're deciding on what pass to buy for next year.


Yup...I bet you're right. I'd say especially for Vail's core target audience, the late season isn't a major factor in the decision to buy a pass. The percentage of pass holders that care about late season is probably a very small fraction of their overall sales. Yes there certainly are diehards that aren't happy about the lack of late season options, but unfortunately Vail just doesn't think it is overly important to keep those people happy. Some (or perhaps even many) of them will still get Epic passes anyway due to being locked into a particular mountain for one reason or another.

I'm very happy Alterra hasn't tried to change or reduce late season operations at places like Sugarbush. They seemingly have to be losing some money based on how few people are still skiing, but they still seem to want to show they care about those handful of diehards that ski until the end. I appreciate that.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

We diehards do appreciate it. April can be a snowy month..


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## abc (Apr 17, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> We diehards do appreciate it. April can be a snowy month..


Tell me about it!

Long before the mega passes, I discovered the joy of spring skiing. 

A season pass on (a collection of) mountains without spring operation operations is something I just ignored. 

(Vail’s Colorado mountains do have longer season. But if I were to spend April/May in Colorado, I’d be looking at A-basin more. Ikon allows spring access to Winter Park/Mary Jane. All around a more balanced product)


----------



## Edd (Apr 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Heck, it seems like way more of them are here at the theme parks in Orlando where I have been waiting in lines and dealing with mechanical induced ride down times with my family the last few days (sounds like a familiar concept to many of us skiers/riders ) for about what it costs per day for a higher end lift ticket. Orlando is packed right now!


Condolences, nobody should ever have to go to Orlando, ever.


----------



## kendo (Apr 17, 2022)

Agree with cdskier.  Wonder what the operating costs are to staff & run 1 HSQ, keep a lodge open for restrooms only, patrol & groom.   

I get Stowe closing to start the triple replacement - but they could probably stay open another week with the forecast and restrict access to the triple side of the mtn...


----------



## abc (Apr 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The vast majority of folks buying passes these days, as witnessed by the lack of crowds at those resorts still open right now, frankly could care less about who is still open now as they're deciding on what pass to buy for next year.


I wonder those vast majority of people are probably not taking advantage of early purchase discount either?

(In epic’s case, there’s no discount, just buddy passes. So clearly, Vail had no interest in grabbing early renewal)


----------



## RH29 (Apr 17, 2022)

Even though there will still be a solid base and 12"+ of fresh powder, it's safe to assume that Stowe wouldn't reopen for an encore day, right?


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

Nope..they dont care..
Ill be at K..then maybe 1 more at SB


----------



## gittist (Apr 17, 2022)

I can understand people buying the full EPIC pass to ski Canadian Rockies & Europe in addition to the U.S.A.  but wonder how many people go to Australia or Japan for skiing?


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

I think people who live in Australia go to Japan for skiing. Probably their #2 destination after New Zealand.


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## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> Condolences, nobody should ever have to go to Orlando, ever.



Honestly me and my family really enjoy theme parking in Orlando. Lots of fun coasters which we enjoy. Plus the people watching is always entertaining! Been kind of our family tradition to go to Orlando and then onto the beaches of SW Florida during our kids Springbreak week which often also serves as a dividing point between out ski season of the previous 5 months or so and our Summer receation endeavors.

Occasionally there is another ski day or two after we return from Florida


----------



## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

abc said:


> I wonder those vast majority of people are probably not taking advantage of early purchase discount either?
> 
> (In epic’s case, there’s no discount, just buddy passes. So clearly, Vail had no interest in grabbing early renewal)


 Vail seems to let their overall pricing vs IKON do their incentivising


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## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Occasionally there is another ski day or two after we return from Florida



Just got back from Florida myself.
Enjoy the sunny days and beautiful weather.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 54163
> Just got back from Florida myself.
> Enjoy the sunny days and beautiful weather.



Velocicoaster at Universal Orlando certainly has some legit black diamond pitch and fun factor! 

Happy Easter and/or Passover to all who celebrate


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## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

Just looked it up that coaster looks fun. They didn’t have it last time I was there right before Covid hit.


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## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Just looked it up that coaster looks fun. They didn’t have it last time I was there right before Covid hit.


The amount of air time on it is incredible! Feels like you spend almost 1/2 the ride floating just above your seat!


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

Things scare the hell out of me...


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## SenorQuesadilla (Apr 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The amount of air time on it is incredible! Feels like you spend almost 1/2 the ride floating just above your seat!


Need to get over to Tampa and try Iron Gwazi...Rocky Mountain Construction doesn't miss.


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## abc (Apr 17, 2022)

I like coasters that twist and turns. Those that have big drops, not so much.

Kind of the same with skiing... bumps and trees over steeps.


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## urungus (Apr 17, 2022)

The borg continues to expand





						Introducing Andermatt-Sedrun | Epic Season Pass
					






					www.epicpass.com
				




edit: seems to be old news


----------



## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

SenorQuesadilla said:


> Need to get over to Tampa and try Iron Gwazi...Rocky Mountain Construction doesn't miss.


I know! Love what they did with Wicked Cyclone at Six Flags New England!

Unfortunately no time for Busch Gardens this trip. Love Cheetah Rush and Montu and actually rode Gwazi in the past when it was a straight woodie!


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

Too many moving parts...moving really fast..that i have no control over..


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## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

I get serious anxiety on some rides…especially the ones that pull you up to the top then drop you down (like the one a kid just died on)
The ones with too many twists and turns give me headaches. I like ones like the Comet at The Great Escape in Lake George, fun and fast but nothing death defying.


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## drjeff (Apr 17, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I get serious anxiety on some rides…especially the ones that pull you up to the top then drop you down (like the one a kid just died on)
> The ones with too many twists and turns give me headaches. I like ones like the Comet at The Great Escape in Lake George, fun and fast but nothing death defying.


Drove by that drop tower ride where the 14yr old recently fell to his death yesterday. The tower is maybe 50 or so feet off of International Drive. Plenty of construction type fencing up around it now and a sizable makeshift memorial.

Definitely have been making sure that the various restraint devices on the rides we've gone on the last few days have been REALLY latched down.

Totally get a thrill from the rush a coaster and/or motion simulator ride gives you. Never really been a fan of drop tower type rides though


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

All i need..and i control it...still a scary ride at times..


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## ThatGuy (Apr 17, 2022)

My buddy goes to one of those bike tracks to let the throttle out. Over in CNY, looks like a good time.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2022)

Tigris at Busch Gardens had me feeling pretty unsettled.  Not because of the height and speed, but because of the lack of speed at the top going over the loop.  You almost come to a stop while upside down 150 feet up.  Just the shoulder restraints holding you in.  

No issues with the other coasters there.  Dig Sheikra


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> My buddy goes to one of those bike tracks to let the throttle out. Over in CNY, looks like a good time.


Prolly same one as me..NYST


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## jaytrem (Apr 17, 2022)

Going to Orlando in May for the first time in ages.  It's a coaster event, so should get lots of rides in.  But for now I'm stuck in Whistler for a week.


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## Zand (Apr 17, 2022)

I'm headed to Orlando next week too for a coaster trip. I tend to hit PA (Hershey, Knoebels) and Ohio (Cedar Point, Kings Island) quite a bit but it's been 10 years since I've been to the Orlando parks and also going to Busch Tampa for the first time. Pretty pumped!


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## jaytrem (Apr 18, 2022)

Zand said:


> I'm headed to Orlando next week too for a coaster trip. I tend to hit PA (Hershey, Knoebels) and Ohio (Cedar Point, Kings Island) quite a bit but it's been 10 years since I've been to the Orlando parks and also going to Busch Tampa for the first time. Pretty pumped!


Cool, Iron Gwazi should be a blast.  Last time I was there it was a brand new woodie.

Getting some snow today at Whistler.  Messing up my spring skiing!!!  At least yesterday had lots of sun.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

i loved roller coasters as a teen but have most definitely grown out of it. i don't enjoy the theme park experience or people whatsoever, and the last time i tried a roller coaster i just felt bad after. granted it was the cyclone at coney island and that antique machine really throws you around. but i think i am good on roller coasters and amusement parks for the rest of my life.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Roller Coasters are great, but Vail still sucks.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 18, 2022)

Roller Coasters great,
Skiing is even better
And Vail still does suck


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## PAabe (Apr 18, 2022)

Hershey has some good coasters but the Phoenix at Knoebels is my favorite.  I don't like amusement parks as much as when I was a kid but Knoebels is a lot more laid back


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## oldfartrider (Apr 18, 2022)

Maybe Vail buy some theme parks.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Just announced by Stowe.  Let the screaming begin......



> A letter from the GM:
> I’m Bobby Murphy, general manager here at Stowe Mountain Resort, and I’d like to share an update on a topic that’s been on a lot of people’s minds this season.
> We are proud to be a popular destination for skiing and riding, but we recognize that traffic is a key challenge. I’ve been asked what we can do to improve the flow of guests into and out of the resort. What can we do to help reduce traffic congestion, increase carpooling, and increase the use of public transit to the resort? How can our operations help change behavior? In response to this, Stowe Mountain Resort will implement a new parking plan for the 2022-23 winter season which includes free and paid parking, new payment strategies and special incentives for those who choose to carpool.
> Parking will remain free at all lots Monday through Thursday during non-holiday periods, and at all lots after 2pm. Paid parking will be implemented Friday through Sunday and holidays at all lots, except at the Cross Country Center and Toll House area lots which will remain free seven days a week.  Free parking will also be offered at all times in all lots to cars arriving with four or more guests, which we hope encourages carpooling. Additionally, payment can be made via a smartphone app or on-site kiosks to help ensure faster, more efficient parking, especially at our busiest times.
> ...


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Guy in the gas station parking lot sees this on my truck..says its great..wants to take a pic of it. Sure..but I think theyre maybe hope..they seem to be trying a bit...
Now fuck all that...they suck


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## JimG. (Apr 18, 2022)

lol figured the just announced parking charges would find their way over to this thread!


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## gittist (Apr 18, 2022)

JimG. said:


> lol figured the just announced parking charges would find their way over to this thread!


And how does having paid parking control traffic? Outside of the very small numbers that might car pool the only way I can think of is pissing people off enough that they go somewhere else.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

gittist said:


> And how does having paid parking control traffic? Outside of the very small numbers that might car pool the only way I can think of is pissing people off enough that they go somewhere else.



bingo. they want your pass money to show up but they don't want you to show up, unless you're the type to pay for parking, private lessons, expensive food, official lodging.


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## JimG. (Apr 18, 2022)

gittist said:


> And how does having paid parking control traffic? Outside of the very small numbers that might car pool the only way I can think of is pissing people off enough that they go somewhere else.


Don't ask me...I have no horse in this race.

But I agree the traffic control method seems to be to piss potential skiers off so they ski elsewhere.

Paid parking is definitely a hot button issue for the skiing on the cheap crowd.


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## oldfartrider (Apr 18, 2022)

What do u think the charge will be?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

In other news.....congrats to Win.  Not so sure about Katz though.  









						Rob Katz and Win Smith to be Recognized by NSAA
					

SAM Magazine—Lakewood, Colo., April 18, 2022—Win Smith and Rob Katz will receive the 2022 National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Lifetime Achievement and In




					www.saminfo.com


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Well I can ski mon to thurs there..then weekends at either there or SB..will depend on what my wife wants...she probably wont care...not a fan of Stowe on weekends anyway..


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## oldfartrider (Apr 18, 2022)

Stowe on Friday is nice tho and the lot is never near filled.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Wont be as filled now for sure..


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## oldfartrider (Apr 18, 2022)

Just think if every car had 4 people in it how crowded the place would be lol


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## abc (Apr 18, 2022)

gittist said:


> And how does having paid parking control traffic?


The only "control" it will exercise is control those willing to ski for additional cost!

As the Nordic center and Toll house lot are now the only free lot, wouldn't those got filled as people can catch bus from there? The Nordic center lot isn't big, how big is the Toll House lot? 

(that said, I paid for parking at Beaver Creek as I didn't know any other alternatives -- rumor has it you can park for free some place, just need to hop on a bus, but you need to do that even in the paid lot anyway)

Again, I no longer have a dog in the fight as I will not be renewing my Epic pass for next year. But just being curious...


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## mbedle (Apr 18, 2022)

Toll house is really small compared to the cross country center. While tool house and cross country lots will get filled, if a lot of people staying in town start using the bus, the bus will be filled by the time it gets to either of those lots. They said they are working with Green Mountain, so maybe they will have dedicated busses just for those lots.


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## meff (Apr 18, 2022)

abc said:


> (that said, I paid for parking at Beaver Creek as I didn't know any other alternatives -- rumor has it you can park for free some place, just need to hop on a bus, but you need to do that even in the paid lot anyway)



Clearly didn't look too much for the free parking.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Well played, Magic.


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## eatskisleep (Apr 19, 2022)

Love it!


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## jaytrem (Apr 19, 2022)

Mount Snow should reply with....

Stop by Mount Snow and watch us magically build 2 lifts in 1 summer.


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## drjeff (Apr 19, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Mount Snow should reply with....
> 
> Stop by Mount Snow and watch us magically build 2 lifts in 1 summer.




And for full disclosure, I love what Magic is doing, even if it tends to take longer in most cases than just about any ski resort in the industry


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## catskillman (Apr 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Just announced by Stowe.  Let the screaming begin......


2024 Hunter is supposed to start charging.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2022)

catskillman said:


> 2024 Hunter is supposed to start charging.


Start saving.


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## abc (Apr 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Start saving.


Put that "saving" towards skiing at Bell

Without the west side open much at all this season, Hunter is not any better than Bell.

(that's not to mention that other great mountain further down the road, start with a P...)


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## oldfartrider (Apr 19, 2022)

I imagine won't be long before Okemo charges also.  Went there a few times this year and every lot was full,


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## drjeff (Apr 20, 2022)

Vail Resorts plans big investment in affordable housing. Town of Vail promises a fight.
					

Vail Resorts plans big investment in affordable housing. Town of Vail promises a fight.




					coloradosun.com
				




Vail Resorts trying to do something right, and the Vail town council going full NIMBY on the proposal....


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Vail Resorts plans big investment in affordable housing. Town of Vail promises a fight.
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts plans big investment in affordable housing. Town of Vail promises a fight.
> ...



If they were going full NIMBY, wouldn't they be telling Vail they'd oppose the project on any of their properties in the area? Instead they outright suggested other properties owned by Vail that would be more appropriate for the proposed housing.


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## slatham (Apr 20, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Mount Snow should reply with....
> 
> Stop by Mount Snow and watch us magically build 2 lifts in 1 summer.


All I’ll say is they are not built yet.......


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## jaytrem (Apr 20, 2022)

slatham said:


> All I’ll say is they are not built yet.......


Comment is meant to be a silly comeback, and I'm a big Magic fan.  But if you wanna go there, I think you know which lifts are more likely to run next winter.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 21, 2022)

slatham said:


> All I’ll say is they are not built yet.......



what's the over/under on the amount of new lift installs not being ready for the start of next season?


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> what's the over/under on the amount of new lift installs not being ready for the start of next season?


Opening day of next season? Or by Christmas week of next season? If it's Christmas week, then baring multiple crazy weather events (think Tropical Storm Irene type stuff) I'd say that the only way they (the new Vail installs) won't be spinning by Christmas week is if Mother Nature doesn't give enough snowmaking hours.

Black at Magic, even with favorable weather conditions, I would give at 10% chance of not spinning by Christmas week. 

Frankly for the good of the entire industry, I hope that every new lift scheduled for installation or upgrades is completed and passes inspection prior to the start of that resorts opening day


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## machski (Apr 21, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Opening day of next season? Or by Christmas week of next season? If it's Christmas week, then baring multiple crazy weather events (think Tropical Storm Irene type stuff) I'd say that the only way they (the new Vail installs) won't be spinning by Christmas week is if Mother Nature doesn't give enough snowmaking hours.
> 
> Black at Magic, even with favorable weather conditions, I would give at 10% chance of not spinning by Christmas week.
> 
> Frankly for the good of the entire industry, I hope that every new lift scheduled for installation or upgrades is completed and passes inspection prior to the start of that resorts opening day


All I can say is every lift manufacturer is actively seeking to hire personnel for this season's installations in all regions of the country.  Taking a page from this past seasons operations, I would not hold my breath....


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2022)

machski said:


> All I can say is every lift manufacturer is actively seeking to hire personnel for this season's installations in all regions of the country.  Taking a page from this past seasons operations, I would not hold my breath....


$50 an hour is the rumor that was going around Mount Snow a few weeks ago when the folks from Dopp showed up to do a hiring clinic


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## icecoast1 (Apr 21, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Opening day of next season? Or by Christmas week of next season? If it's Christmas week, then baring multiple crazy weather events (think Tropical Storm Irene type stuff) I'd say that the only way they (the new Vail installs) won't be spinning by Christmas week is if Mother Nature doesn't give enough snowmaking hours.
> 
> Black at Magic, even with favorable weather conditions, I would give at 10% chance of not spinning by Christmas week.
> 
> Frankly for the good of the entire industry, I hope that every new lift scheduled for installation or upgrades is completed and passes inspection prior to the start of that resorts opening day



With the current supply chain and labor issues, nothing is a given anymore.  Especially on projects of this magnitude.    Vail certainly has an advantage over magic though in that they have more money to throw at the issue and aren't relying on third party contractors to the extent that magic is


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## Creakyknees (Apr 21, 2022)

Someone explain to me; besides the 10 Buddy Tickets you get what is the advantage of purchasing an Epic Pass now or waiting and purchasing the pass in September?


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## Smellytele (Apr 21, 2022)

Creakyknees said:


> Someone explain to me; besides the 10 Buddy Tickets you get what is the advantage of purchasing an Epic Pass now or waiting and purchasing the pass in September?


Vail can use your money to put lifts in this summer


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## snoseek (Apr 21, 2022)

Creakyknees said:


> Someone explain to me; besides the 10 Buddy Tickets you get what is the advantage of purchasing an Epic Pass now or waiting and purchasing the pass in September?


When everyone buys early they can get that sweet early income, pay out fat bonuses and slash their operating budgets!!!


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## gittist (Apr 21, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Vail can use your money to put lifts in this summer


That's good for Vail but not so much for the pass holder...  I didn't notice that the normal  'get your pass early because the prices increase in September' wasn't there this year.


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## crystalmountainskier (Apr 21, 2022)

drjeff said:


> $50 an hour is the rumor that was going around Mount Snow a few weeks ago when the folks from Dopp showed up to do a hiring clinic


Lol Dopp is hiring at $18 and Poma $19.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Lol Dopp is hiring at $18 and Poma $19.



Really? That's ridiculously low for that kind of work IMO.

I know marinas around Winnipesaukee are offering $20/hr to kids right out of highschool with zero experience.  Upwards of $50 for certified marine mechanics


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## crystalmountainskier (Apr 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Really? That's ridiculously low for that kind of work IMO.
> 
> I know marinas around Winnipesaukee are offering $20/hr to kids right out of highschool with zero experience.  Upwards of $50 for certified marine mechanics


Look them up on Indeed. The ski industry is the ski industry.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2022)

Did Vail buy the lift companies too?


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

PARK CITY COME ON DOWN YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON MANDATORY PAID PARKING!


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## snoseek (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> PARK CITY COME ON DOWN YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON MANDATORY PAID PARKING!


I assume they wont stop till all the mtns are paid parking. If you're a weekend skier with an Epic pass vibes. Up next: Okemo and Sunapee


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## abc (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> PARK CITY COME ON DOWN YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON MANDATORY PAID PARKING!


What do you prefer? 

Stowe where the road is jammed for 2 hrs in the morning and 2 hrs in the afternoon?

Or Breckenridge where you get to CHOOSE to pay to park next to the lift, or park at a free lot and ride the bus in? (With substantially reduced traffic)


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

abc said:


> What do you prefer?
> 
> Stowe where the road is jammed for 2 hrs in the morning and 2 hrs in the afternoon?
> 
> Or Breckenridge where you get to CHOOSE to pay to park next to the lift, or park at a free lot and ride the bus in? (With substantially reduced traffic)



i prefer to not ski either of those over touristed shitholes.


----------



## abc (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i prefer to not ski either of those over touristed shitholes.


Those "shitholes" are full of snow in April. Excellent terrain with few people on it. 

In fact, just about everyone I shared a lift with 2 weeks ago were locals sneaking out for a few runs, in their carefully arranged work day which makes that possible. 

But yet, if you're so blessed to not have to share a mountain with those, all the power to you.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

lol wut?

there are plenty of places with plenty of snow in April that arent owned or associated with vail and their shitpass and parking extortion. 

if i was in colorado, i'd be at a-basin. not breckenridge. and i'd park on the beach. for free.


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## abc (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol wut?
> 
> there are plenty of places with plenty of snow in April that arent owned or associated with vail and their shitpass and parking extortion.
> 
> if i was in colorado, i'd be at a-basin. not breckenridge. and i'd park on the beach. for free.


On a windy and low visibility day?

Be my guest!

I was lapping the E Chair at Breck, powder filled tree-lined runs, ski-on each run.

(And if I were stuck with IKON, I'd ski at Winter Park rather than A-basin! Far better skiing than AB with rosy glasses from afar)


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if i was in colorado, i'd be at a-basin. not breckenridge. and i'd park on the beach. for free.



Didn't they start charging to park there?


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Didn't they start charging to park there?



havent been in a couple years. i could see the front row of the beach being a reasonably paid parking spot. but i also assume there is still free parking in their main lot on the correct side of the road


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> PARK CITY COME ON DOWN YOU'RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON MANDATORY PAID PARKING!


Just about to say that.  It is going to make the current problems worse because folks will continue to crowd the streets looking for free parking. 









						Vail Resorts to Implement Paid Parking at Park City Mountain Resort, UT, Next Season - SnowBrains
					

Less than a week after introducing paid parking at Stowe, VT, Vail Resorts yesterday announced they will be doing the same at Park City




					snowbrains.com


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 22, 2022)

abc said:


> What do you prefer?
> 
> Stowe where the road is jammed for 2 hrs in the morning and 2 hrs in the afternoon?
> 
> Or Breckenridge where you get to CHOOSE to pay to park next to the lift, or park at a free lot and ride the bus in? (With substantially reduced traffic)


Rather not waste 2 days flying and traveling, getting a place to stay and renting a car and paying for parking at an airport for spring skiing where I have to worry about low visibility days


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Didn't they start charging to park there?



checked their site. all main lots, including the big lot on the closer side of the road are free. there are a limited number of paid spots. i assume those are like the first half of beach spots, and the first row or two closest to the buildings. normal.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

tell me you are not a very good skier without telling me you are not a very good skier - 'i prefer winter park to a-basin'


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> tell me you are not a very good skier without telling me you are not a very good skier - 'i prefer winter park to a-basin'


The Mary Jane section has some nice bumpy stuff to keep a good skier busy.


----------



## abc (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> tell me you are not a very good skier without telling me you are not a very good skier - 'i prefer winter park to a-basin'





Smellytele said:


> The Mary Jane section has some nice bumpy stuff to keep a good skier busy.You


You're telling him you're not a very good skier! 

KTK's definition of "good skier" is you'd better like what he likes because he's such a hot shot skier.


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## snoseek (Apr 22, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The Mary Jane section has some nice bumpy stuff to keep a good skier busy.



I was gonna say get to know that area and it's got lots and lots of challenging stuff.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 22, 2022)

ive skied MJ plenty. the chutes are fine when they are open. eagle wind is fun but short. a-basin is way better for sustained steep skiing.

my main point here is why the fuck would i pay to park at stowe or breckenridge when i can just ski at places that have nothing to do with vail.


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## abc (Apr 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my main point here is why the fuck would i pay to park at stowe or breckenridge when i can just ski at places that have nothing to do with vail.


Stowe existed long before Vail acquired it (so was Breck).

And who's to say it may not become non-Vail at some later point.

Both are fine mountains that, had they not be Vail property, you would have count them as "mountains for _*good skiers*_"!

Yes, we know you were TRYING to make a point. But it's a strange way of doing it. And it totally fell flat.

However "good" a skier you maybe, a good communicator you're clearly not.


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## djd66 (Apr 22, 2022)

abc said:


> You're telling him you're not a very good skier!
> 
> KTK's definition of "good skier" is you'd better like what he likes because he's such a hot shot skier.


In my experience, it’s always the people that talk about being the best/ most hardcore skier that actually really suck at the sport.


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 22, 2022)

I'm the best at breaking equipment.  Will be using my wife's skis afternoon.

As for A-Basin vs  WP.  Too close to call, but I love bumps, so maybe WP.


----------



## Vince (Apr 23, 2022)

Just skied 4 great sunny days at Breck. Stayed at the base of Peak 7 so not sure on paid parking. I'm pretty sure you reserve the best prime spots at ABasin and the rest is free. Breck has Peaks 6, 7 and 8 open. But you have to take the T Bar to get to Imperial Bowl as Ch6 is closed.
I've been coming to CO for many years late April and early May. I would say slightly better than average snow pack this year. Snowing here tonight.
Come on out skiing ain't done yet.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 23, 2022)

NELSAP Snowjournal.com forum closed the Vail sucks thread. A new one popped up almost immediately. Thank you mods for not closing this one! It is good to have an open place to talk about the many pitfalls of vail!


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

Why did they close it?

This Vail Sucks thread is eternal.  It is time itself


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 23, 2022)

Probably doesn’t help that their mod works for Vail…


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 23, 2022)

Aha......


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Why did they close it?
> 
> This Vail Sucks thread is eternal.  It is time itself


The cited reason was the repetitive nature of a large number of posts with little to no new, relevant content for the thread as a whole.

Then it was pointed out, that in essence some trip reports, especially to certain smaller, out of the way places, often have very little relevance to the majority of folks.

On the flipside, currently through security in a crowded Tampa Airport. I'd put the percentage of folks choosing to wear a mask in the 10-15% range.

Masks suck!


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## eatskisleep (Apr 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The cited reason was the repetitive nature of a large number of posts with little to no new, relevant content for the thread as a whole.
> 
> Then it was pointed out, that in essence some trip reports, especially to certain smaller, out of the way places, often have very little relevance to the majority of folks.
> 
> ...


Masks suck and so does vail!!


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## abc (Apr 23, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Masks suck and so does vail!!


Mask works!

Skiing at Vail resort in April had been very good!

Such is life.


----------



## Teleskier (Apr 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> On the flipside, currently through security in a crowded Tampa Airport. I'd put the percentage of folks choosing to wear a mask in the 10-15% range.
> 
> Masks suck!



You've been vocally and virulently anti-mask and “F* thinking anyone else besides exclusively myself” from the very start. You’ve been the poster boy for that selfish mindset in this forum here.  Wearing a mask to protect others, especially the elderly, chemo patients, AIDS survivors (and a host of others I’m forgetting) in society is simply not in your thinking or vocabulary, and that has been particularly jarring to me given the ‘dr’ in your screen-name. So no surprise there.

Florida having less mask usage? No surprise there.

However you’re still going on and on about masks. Give it a break already. I finally had to comment after two years of this conceited sh*t.

Meanwhile on Boston-NYC flights, mask usage is still 80%-90% per recent news reports. They do this despite the repeal of mask mandates, NOT because it is mandatory, but because it is simply “looking out for your neighbor.”

A Tale of Two Cities…


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 23, 2022)

They have lifted the federal mask requirement on flights








						Do you have to wear a mask on your next flight? These airlines are dropping mask mandates
					

Though customers are free to continue wearing masks if they choose, passengers will not be required to mask up on many carriers for the first time in years.




					www.cbsnews.com


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Masks suck and so does vail!!


Vail sucks more.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The cited reason was the repetitive nature of a large number of posts with little to no new, relevant content for the thread as a whole.
> 
> Then it was pointed out, that in essence some trip reports, especially to certain smaller, out of the way places, often have very little relevance to the majority of folks.
> 
> ...


Similar observation this week.  I was in Logan and Newark Thursday/Friday. Now down in Florida having flown into Ft Myers.   It was like 30% in Logan on Thursday.  Then by this morning maybe 15% as you said.  Guessing folks on Thursday just hadn't heard the mandate was lifted


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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> You've been vocally and virulently anti-mask and “F* thinking anyone else besides exclusively myself” from the very start. You’ve been the poster boy for that selfish mindset in this forum here.  Wearing a mask to protect others, especially the elderly, chemo patients, AIDS survivors (and a host of others I’m forgetting) in society is simply not in your thinking or vocabulary, and that has been particularly jarring to me given the ‘dr’ in your screen-name. So no surprise there.
> 
> Florida having less mask usage? No surprise there.
> 
> ...


When did you fly last?  I was in Logan and Newark Thursday and Friday. Back at Logan today.  I'd say maybe 30% mask wearing on Thursday. Half that today.

And I'll say this. The mask mandate in airports and on  planes had been a joke for the past six months.  Half the length of flights people were unmasked to eat and drink.  Does Covid not spread while you eat or something?

I was 100% behind the mandates while things were going ham and hospitals were jammed.  Now that people have had ample time to get vaccines that have proven highly effective at preventing serious illness or death, it's simply time to move on.   I'm sensitive to those people at risk, but it's time to move on. 

Okay, I have said my piece.  

Vail sucks


----------



## gittist (Apr 23, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> Wearing a mask to protect others, especially the elderly, chemo patients, AIDS survivors (and a host of others I’m forgetting) in society is simply not in your thinking or vocabulary, and that has been particularly jarring to me given the ‘dr’ in your screen-name. So no surprise there.



Both my wife and I are in a couple of the groups of people that you mentioned and we're both glad the mask mandate has been lifted!  Other than some outdated laws from the wild west there are no rules that a person can't wear a mask so if you want to wear a mask, or two,  go right ahead.

We're flying to Florida tomorrow. Will we wear out masks? Probably not in the airport but will more than likely wear them on the airplane. It's our choice and our responsibility to protect ourselves; not anyone else's with the following exception.  

Sick people should wear masks and do fall under 42 U.S. Code Part G - Quarantine and Inspection. Sick people and animals are quarantined, not healthy people or those who have not been diagnosed as sick. That's the part (section 264) of the code that CDC used as authority for the mask mandate.  They turned the statute on it's head to do what they wanted. Good intentions? Probably. Legal? I don't (and didn't) think so.  Why have laws if no one follows them? Might as well elect Putin in 2024.


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## Teleskier (Apr 23, 2022)

I haven’t been to Logan yet. Voluntary mask usage at the airport after the mandate repeal was a widely reported local story.

(Note I’m not commenting on whether the current relaxation of mask mandates makes sense to me or not. I’m still weighing everything, like everyone else).

“Masks Suck.” No, masks saved lives.

It’s the attitude about masks from day one on the part of the vocal few that irked me. It’s always been all about them from day one, never about others, or their neighbors literally sitting right next to them. Personally I never found wearing a mask for my neighbor’s health to be that much of an inconvenience for me.

The fact they’re still going on about masks, even now when everyone is collectively declaring that ‘COVID is over’ - and no one is making anyone wear masks - irks me. As if they are constantly incessantly driven to make something that is strictly medical into something political. From Day One. 

Especially from someone from the medical field that should supposedly be used to thinking about and caring about the immuno-compromised, that perhaps many others in the general public don’t normally think about or see.

You won ‘doctor’. No one is making you wear a mask. Yet you’re still going on about it! Drop it already. I listened to it for two years, please stop trying to turn it into three. 

Meanwhile back to skiing…


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

I definitely agree that masks help, especially N95s.  But there was too many illogical aspects to the mandates.  Like allowing people to eat or drink and not wear them during those times on public transportation.  Or the nonsense about wearing a mask as you enter a restaurant, but the second you get to a table or bar you could take them off.    That's very different than the healthcare facilities I work in where masking is 100% all the time in patient care areas. 

Those news stories you have seen were definitely making those figures up.  Maybe it was that high the first day of repeal, but definitely not today.  Honestly I think the percentage was probably high the first day or two because people simply didn't know they no longer had to wear them.  I noticed a big difference even between Thursday and today at Logan. I suspect when I return home to New England on Wednesday, those numbers will be even lower


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2022)

Probably a similar 10-15% of folks wearing mask in the Providence airport when we got off our plane there.

And frankly, with both the type of masks/face coverings that the majority of folks wore during the mandates of the pandemic, and how they often wore them (down below their nose, etc) they did little to protect folks from COVID. It's not like everyone was wearing a properly fit checked N95 all the time, which would of helped slow the spread. And as we are seeing clearly now, it's not like getting vaccinated prevented the spread (as some of our public health officials told us they would initially), but fortunately lessened the severity of symptoms, especially for the most vulnerable, when they contracted it.

Just take an honest look at the data, and not the often ideological driven hyperbole that the media of all sides puts out there.

And it was nice to spend 3hrs on a plane without a mask on today. Just like it was nice to be on the ski hill this winter without a mask on.

And if those miffed by the judges ruling this week eliminating the mask mandate for planes/trains/etc, notice how the criticism by some is about the judge herself, and NOT the substance of her 50+ page ruling.

Feel free to wear a mask if one so chooses. Doesn't bother me at all. Just let those who choose not to wear a mask do so without issue as well. Since if one feels strongly that their mask protects themselves, then the presence or absence of a mask on those around you shouldn't make any difference to your person health afterall.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 23, 2022)

At one point I thought it made sense to wear a mask forever on flights not for covid but any kind of illness, part of me knows this is true. Then I actually spent some time on a long flight with a mask and will say fuck that. 

I'm triple dosed and boosted so this shit is over for me. Try working in a kitchen for a 12 hour shift in the heat while customers flow in, sit, yell at the servers who then come back to the pass and pick up....I'm still pisssed off about that bullshit while everyone was told to stay home, work from there ect....


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 23, 2022)

Talking about ...masks...again...


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 23, 2022)

Back to Vail sux...
Winter has shifted a bit...early season sucked for here and the west. Utah just got 20 inches..it snowed in VT and the AD's...
Gore,WF,and Bellfriiginayre open,SB open,Jay open.....
All Vail resorts in   East except Mt Snow closed...why...because they are done..so..you are done.....
Heres SB yesterday.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

Pretty cool that Gore is going to May 1st


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## ThatGuy (Apr 23, 2022)

Its impressive and if they plan on making that the new MO I’ll probably jump ship to Ski3 next season. Just wish they were more aggressive with opening terrain (Burnt Ridge, Lookout Mountain).


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 23, 2022)

Flying out of Logan tomorrow.
In other news skied Tuck’s today. Great day. Did see a guy tomahawk down the lip and break both his legs though


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Flying out of Logan tomorrow.
> In other news skied Tuck’s today. Great day. Did see a hit tomahawk down the lip and break both his legs though


Good luck with your travels. And if you're renting a car, hope it won't start off like the debacle Avis was for me and my family in FL last week!!


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## eatskisleep (Apr 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Flying out of Logan tomorrow.
> In other news skied Tuck’s today. Great day. Did see a guy tomahawk down the lip and break both his legs though


Wow that sucks big time. How is the bowl holding up? Might head that way this coming weekend if not too cold…


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## ThatGuy (Apr 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Good luck with your travels. And if you're renting a car, hope it won't start off like the debacle Avis was for me and my family in FL last week!!


Had a major debacle with Hertz while in Yellowstone during a road trip over the summer. For reference this was the condition of the tires on the car, thats not even going into the other issues it had.
View attachment FullSizeRender.mov


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## abc (Apr 23, 2022)

So Vail sucks because it requires mask in the middle of the pandemic, right?

Because my skiing at Vail didn’t suck...


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2022)

Weird. I had bald tires on my rental in Jersey this week.  Didn't bother to look when I picked it up and only noticed it the next morning.  Pointed it out at return so they didn't rent it to someone else. Got a voucher for two free days.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 23, 2022)

Had one blowout and the other three all were just as worn down. I ended up having to buy 4 new tires and have more work done. Hertz cancelled the rental when I brought it back so I couldn’t use my insurance.


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## Teleskier (Apr 24, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Back to Vail sux...
> Winter has shifted a bit...early season sucked for here and the west. Utah just got 20 inches..it snowed in VT and the AD's...
> Gore,WF,and Bellfriiginayre open,SB open,Jay open.....
> All Vail resorts in   East except Mt Snow closed...why...because they are done..so..you are done.....
> Heres SB yesterday.  View attachment 54354


Stein's is still looking great!  Their late season skiing is yet another argument making the case for getting the IKON pass.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 24, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> I haven’t been to Logan yet. *Voluntary mask usage at the airport after the mandate repeal was a widely reported local story.*
> 
> (Note I’m not commenting on whether the current relaxation of mask mandates makes sense to me or not. I’m still weighing everything, like everyone else).
> 
> ...


lol


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 24, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Wow that sucks big time. How is the bowl holding up? Might head that way this coming weekend if not too cold…


plenty of snow in the bowl and on Hillman's. Lower headwall is done with open running water. The sherbie you could ski down 1/2-2/3.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 24, 2022)

At Jay..look what's spinning today


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 24, 2022)

I skied jay yesterday and they had so much open! Tram laps to Tuckerman, Valhalla, green beret. Andres skied great but the runout was shit with mandatory walk at the end. Timbuktu holding tons of snow. Don’t skip power line (I think they call it 601 now) - great skiing along the skiers right line at the bottom of the double fall line. Enjoy!

I am at sugarbush for some morning laps now that they have heavens gate running. Jay has so much more natural snow right now, but what sugarbush has on offer for the snowmaking routes is pretty damn good all things considered

Good weekend! Late season goodness making up for mid season garbage. A little bit.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 24, 2022)

Hope it warms up..a bit frozen but its early..


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## jaytrem (Apr 24, 2022)

At SEA right now.  In the security line there were more wheelchairs than masks.  Actually the most people I've ever seen being wheeled in an airport.  Little surprising since people don't seem to be as fat out here.

Was a great week of skiing.  Finally got to Crystal on my 5th try.  Was a power day with near bluebird skis.  Super fun place, lots of steep stuff all over thd place.  Power stayed nice up top all day.  Only did one day there.  Was nice that they had free skiing for kids, so it was only about $105 for the 3 of us.

Aftet that we headed up to Whistler for 7 days.  Spent most of the 1st 2 at Whistler since they were closing after that.  Word is that will be reversed for next year, so I suspect a chair or 2 will be replaced on Blackcomb.  It snowed most of the 2nd day, a good 8 inches during the day up top.  Total storm turned out to be about 20.  Rest of the week was all Blackcomb and quite nice.  Good combo of snow storms and sun.  Most importantly we didn't give Vail any extra money.  Condo was right on the slopes, so easy lunch breaks. Crazy how cheap you can get slopeside in mid/late April.  Was about $1300 CAD for a 1 bedroom, 2 bath with Murphey bed in the living room, 7 nights.

As for operations, they did okay, but communication could be better.  Web site was often way off.  7th Heaven didn't run most of the time.  Never did get up there.  They ran Glacier instead, which I prefer anyway, easy access to Spanky's.  It was awesome back there.  Faces more north, so snowed stayed nice.  Craziest thing was the opening/closing times.  The scheduled opening was 10 most days.  However they started loading anytime between 9:15 and 9:45.  Was almost always before 9:30.  The latest we managed to load was Catskinner 1 day at about 4:20.  I think our earliest last load was about 4:08 on Jersey Cream, lousy timing that day!  Staff was all very friendly.

Almost time to board, maybe should hop the plane to Denver at the next gate. Hmmmmm


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## Smellytele (Apr 24, 2022)

I would say 15-20% wearing masks here at terminal A at Logan. 10%wearing them correctly.


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## Zand (Apr 24, 2022)

I'm in Florida right now...15% sounds about right for people still wearing.

When I was at Sugarbush, Jay, and Killington last month, the number of people wearing masks in the lodges and also in stores was mostly 0, or the occasional one or two. Definitely a higher percentage wearing them in stores and stuff here in Florida than there were in Vermont.


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2022)

Still obsessed with mask? Incredible!

I’m done with this board. There’s just so little ski related stuff on here it became a waste time looking for them. People dumping all sort of pointless moans and groans I had to wade through makes it that much worse.

Granted, my season is done, thanks to Vail closing everything in the east.

I’ll check back come Christmas, but maybe not until after New Year. And if the board die of a quiet death before that, I wouldn’t be too upset. Best of luck to those who still wish to talk into empty space and turn that into their personal echo chamber.


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## hovercraft (Apr 25, 2022)

abc said:


> Still obsessed with mask? Incredible!
> 
> I’m done with this board. There’s just so little ski related stuff on here it became a waste time looking for them. People dumping all sort of pointless moans and groans I had to wade through makes it that much worse.
> 
> ...


You could go to SB next weekend show the epic pass, ticket would cost 59.00 if you still wanted to get out.


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## Teleskier (Apr 25, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> You could go to SB next weekend show the epic pass, ticket would cost 59.00 if you still wanted to get out.


Thanks for the tip... I hadn't seen that anywhere. On my first visit to SB, last month, after a number of years away, I was really struck and impressed with the overall likewise feeling of  "I thought the whole place skied great" to quote Krusty's recent post. I had a lot of fun that day!


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## hovercraft (Apr 25, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> Thanks for the tip... I hadn't seen that anywhere. On my first visit to SB, last month, after a number of years away, I was really struck and impressed with the overall likewise feeling of  "I thought the whole place skied great" to quote Krusty's recent post. I had a lot of fun that day!


I agree, being a Stowe diehard for many reasons, SB is a fun mountain with a great vibe that Stowe can’t duplicate.


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## Kingslug20 (Apr 25, 2022)

And better food.


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## abc (Apr 26, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> You could go to SB next weekend show the epic pass, ticket would cost 59.00 if you still wanted to get out.


Thanks for the tip, even though I wouldn't be using it. I went out on my bike last weekend. It was soooo much fun, skiing got totally pushed into the deep recess of my brain. (also, I'm going IKON next season so will have plenty of time to ski Sugarbush)

It's this kind of information that I'm here for. (I did seriously considered skiing Bell at $30 and Gore at $50 last weekend, until my bike won out) But having to dig through all the mask madness junk to find any of these just got really tiresome.


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## Smellytele (Apr 26, 2022)

Biking week days. Skiing weekends. Great time of the year


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Biking week days. Skiing weekends. Great time of the year


Agree. Best time of the year.

Truth being, I had skied a lot of days the last couple months, and a good number of days on cross country skis throughout the season. I had my "ski fix" for the year. (I stop counting when I went over 20 days)

More significantly, so much of the 21/22 season had been warm and soft to slushy snow. It's like I've done my share of "spring skiing" throughout the season! My craving for slushy bumps and cream cheese groomers had already been satisfied.

And, all the traveling to accumulate those days is taking a toll on me too. So driving up to Sugarbush totally doesn't appeal.

Gore being open this coming weekend is again tempting. But in the heart of me, I know it won't happen. I got two very attractive bike ride plans weighting against it.


----------



## hovercraft (Apr 26, 2022)

abc said:


> Thanks for the tip, even though I wouldn't be using it. I went out on my bike last weekend. It was soooo much fun, skiing got totally pushed into the deep recess of my brain. (also, I'm going IKON next season so will have plenty of time to ski Sugarbush)
> 
> It's this kind of information that I'm here for. (I did seriously considered skiing Bell at $30 and Gore at $50 last weekend, until my bike won out) But having to dig through all the mask madness junk to find any of these just got really tiresome.


Ikon is a good pass to have.  Great opportunity’s for early and late skiing and riding, plus no epic crowds.


----------



## urungus (Apr 26, 2022)

abc said:


> Thanks for the tip, even though I wouldn't be using it. I went out on my bike last weekend. It was soooo much fun, skiing got totally pushed into the deep recess of my brain. (also, I'm going IKON next season so will have plenty of time to ski Sugarbush)
> 
> It's this kind of information that I'm here for. (I did seriously considered skiing Bell at $30 and Gore at $50 last weekend, until my bike won out) But having to dig through all the mask madness junk to find any of these just got really tiresome.


If you’re going IKON next season ( and have already purchased your pass ) then you can ski for free at Sugarbush this spring.


----------



## abc (Apr 27, 2022)

urungus said:


> If you’re going IKON next season ( and have already purchased your pass ) then you can ski for free at Sugarbush this spring.


I know that.

But it’s over 5 hr drive each way. Not going to happen...

Mentally, I’m done skiing. I may have been tempted with Bell (or Gore) which is 2-3 hrs away. But even that didn’t happen last weekend. So I know SB aren’t going to happen.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 30, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> * they are constantly incessantly driven to make something that is strictly medical into something political. *



This is a good point.   But really, we just just play a recording of _The State of the Union Address_ at every indoor venue in America & then we don't need to wear masks anyway. C'est simple.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 30, 2022)

abc said:


> *I’m done with this board.*
> 
> *I’ll check back come Christmas, but maybe not until after New Year. *And if the board die of a quiet death before that, I wouldn’t be too upset.



*FACT CHECK* (from the future):  False


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 30, 2022)

That was the hook and you took the bait Benny


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 30, 2022)

This place is slipping; I cant believe nobody pointed out in the "VAIL SUCKS" thread that Vail specifically waited until the vast majority of 2022-2023 EPIC passes were already paid for to announce "paid parking" for Stowe & Park City (two of their most important properties) for 2022-2023.  

Serious Solitude vibes too, this "timing" is not an accident, but rather is seemingly a thing now.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 30, 2022)

As expected....


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## crystalmountainskier (Apr 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant believe nobody pointed out in the "VAIL SUCKS" thread that Vail specifically waited until the vast majority of 2022-2023 EPIC passes were already paid for to announce "paid parking" for Stowe & Park City (two of their most important properties) for 2022-2023.


What makes you say the vast majority have been sold? We’re less than 2 months into a 9 month selling season and still months away from the first price increase. If you chose to give Vail a 5 month no interest loan for a few worthless buddy tickets, that’s on you.


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## Smellytele (Apr 30, 2022)

It was mentioned somewhere on here because we know about it.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 30, 2022)

Was definitely mentioned. The sad fact is that’s exactly the kind of bs we all already expected, hence…..Vail Sucks

Like Smelly said there’s literally no real benefit to getting an Epic pass early besides worthless buddy tickets.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> This place is slipping; I cant believe nobody pointed out in the "VAIL SUCKS" thread that Vail specifically waited until the vast majority of 2022-2023 EPIC passes were already paid for to announce "paid parking" for Stowe & Park City (two of their most important properties) for 2022-2023.
> 
> Serious Solitude vibes too, this "timing" is not an accident, but rather is seemingly a thing now.


I wondered if the timing was suspect.  Stowe and PCMR are big draws for Epic.  Paid parking puts a crimp in this.  

My beef with Solitude, other than the timing, was that it was rolled out pretty badly in that it was painfully obvious that Alterra called Solitude and told them to cut costs and find a way to pay for all of those bus passes for folks to ski and ride non-company resorts.  Not a single dime has gone to charity as they planned.  

I skied Solitude yesterday.  Free parking after 1pm.  I went in with an open mind as best as I could.  I still left thinking it is a "meh" resort.  Either too steep to hold snow or too flat.


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## abc (Apr 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> *FACT CHECK* (from the future):  False


You didn't read the rest of the message as to why I was "done".

And the subsequent message why I stayed on for longer.

But I know you read it. You just selectively choose to quote my posting out of context.

Yes, with people like you {yeah, right, finance expert turned medical professional overnight during the pandemic, now turned business expert), I'm very much done with this board, if not for still some other people who aren't like you . You're very much part of the reason they don't stick around.


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## Kingslug20 (May 1, 2022)

I still dont believe that the paid parking will chase away the crowds from vail...piss off the locals...oh yeah.


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## gittist (May 1, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> We’re less than 2 months into a 9 month selling season and still months away from the first price increase.


What price increase?  I know in years past they increase the price as the season approaches but all I see this year is the buddy tickets by May 30.


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## crystalmountainskier (May 1, 2022)

gittist said:


> What price increase?  I know in years past they increase the price as the season approaches but all I see this year is the buddy tickets by May 30.


No price increase until September. To say the majority have been sold already is ridiculous.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2022)




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## snoseek (May 1, 2022)

Unless you own property, if you already gave vail money already for next year you fucked up.


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## djd66 (May 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> View attachment 54425


i don't get it,.. explain


----------



## ThatGuy (May 1, 2022)

Never seen Superbad I assume…


----------



## KustyTheKlown (May 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I wondered if the timing was suspect.  Stowe and PCMR are big draws for Epic.  Paid parking puts a crimp in this.
> 
> My beef with Solitude, other than the timing, was that it was rolled out pretty badly in that it was painfully obvious that Alterra called Solitude and told them to cut costs and find a way to pay for all of those bus passes for folks to ski and ride non-company resorts.  Not a single dime has gone to charity as they planned.
> 
> I skied Solitude yesterday.  Free parking after 1pm.  I went in with an open mind as best as I could.  I still left thinking it is a "meh" resort.  Either too steep to hold snow or too flat.



kind of hard to lap the best terrain too. honeycomb is like a 3 lift circuit.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> kind of hard to lap the best terrain too. honeycomb is like a 3 lift circuit.


Exactly.


----------



## snoseek (May 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.


You think its bad now I remember when you had to take that catrack all the way out...then again it probably stayed even fresher back there for that reason. It was a super long journey


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2022)

snoseek said:


> You think its bad now I remember when you had to take that catrack all the way out...then again it probably stayed even fresher back there for that reason. It was a super long journey


That is the beauty of it and its biggest drawback.  I did not do Honeycomb because we had a pretty bad thaw/freeze cycle and anything ungroomed was iffy at best.  

Solitude was a resort that the founder "forced" to come into existence.  He would be a modern day MAGA hat wearing guy.  He had many a fight with the USFS and ignored regulations--including safety regulations on his homemade chairlift.  He eventually was all but shut down.  In fact, he closed the ski area like 2-weeks into the season.  

He sold eventually and it became a legitimate ski area eventually.  

The terrain, elevation, and layout are just not ideal.  I would not have put a ski area there.


----------



## snoseek (May 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That is the beauty of it and its biggest drawback.  I did not do Honeycomb because we had a pretty bad thaw/freeze cycle and anything ungroomed was iffy at best.
> 
> Solitude was a resort that the founder "forced" to come into existence.  He would be a modern day MAGA hat wearing guy.  He had many a fight with the USFS and ignored regulations--including safety regulations on his homemade chairlift.  He eventually was all but shut down.  In fact, he closed the ski area like 2-weeks into the season.
> 
> ...


I used to like it there but yeah the terrain layout is horrible and skiing the full vert isnt really a thing


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I used to like it there but yeah the terrain layout is horrible and skiing the full vert isnt really a thing











						Solitude Gets Into Testy Twitter Exchange Over Paid Parking With Influential Skier
					

^Webcam capture from Solitude’s parking lot It’s pretty rare that we see an official social media account for a ski resort of Solitude Mountain Resort’s (UT) caliber engage in any…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 2, 2022)

Skied a few times there..damn near bought it when we got cliffed out in the forrest...some scary stuff back there.


----------



## snoseek (May 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Solitude Gets Into Testy Twitter Exchange Over Paid Parking With Influential Skier
> 
> 
> ^Webcam capture from Solitude’s parking lot It’s pretty rare that we see an official social media account for a ski resort of Solitude Mountain Resort’s (UT) caliber engage in any…
> ...


Wow they suck


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wow they suck


Dumb PR move.  As bad as this one:









						Ex-Ski Patroller Reaches Settlement With Solitude Mountain Resort, UT, After Being Let Go - SnowBrains
					

Settlement between Solitude andEx-Ski Patroller Kai Myers has been made after Myers filed a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board.




					snowbrains.com


----------



## slatham (May 3, 2022)

Bad all around. Stopping the bus and still charging is poor form. The twitter exchange in amateur hour. I am sure the brass at Alterra are thrilled.

(The new COO, ex of Sugarbush, must be having a great time this week)


----------



## jaytrem (May 3, 2022)

slatham said:


> Bad all around. Stopping the bus and still charging is poor form.


Crystal did the same thing.  I probably wouldn't have bothered with the bus anyway.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 3, 2022)

slatham said:


> Bad all around. Stopping the bus and still charging is poor form. The twitter exchange in amateur hour. I am sure the brass at Alterra are thrilled.
> 
> (The new COO, ex of Sugarbush, must be having a great time this week)


I imagine that the PR guy/gal was fired.


----------



## ctdubl07 (May 17, 2022)

You folks feeling ok?
I come to this forum pretty much soley for this thread.
Has it really been 2 weeks since Vail last sucked?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 17, 2022)

I  mean every vail Resort is closed so its hard for them to still be actively pissing people off.  I think I saw in the Hunter thread someone was pissed about the lack of summer events.


----------



## machski (May 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I  mean every vail Resort is closed so its hard for them to still be actively pissing people off.  I think I saw in the Hunter thread someone was pissed about the lack of summer events.


Well, in the USA yes they are.  Blackcomb is still skiing in Canada however.


----------



## zyk (May 17, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I  mean every vail Resort is closed so its hard for them to still be actively pissing people off.  I think I saw in the Hunter thread someone was pissed about the lack of summer events.


Tap NY used to be at hunter... I'm working it this weekend in Bethel Woods.  What happened?


----------



## thebigo (May 17, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, in the USA yes they are.



Meanwhile the Ikon passholder can choose between Killington, palisades, winter park, Arapahoe basin, crystal and bachelor this weekend.


----------



## chuckstah (May 17, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Meanwhile the Ikon passholder can choose between Killington, palisades, winter park, Arapahoe basin, crystal and bachelor this weekend.


Don't forget Mammoth. Lot's of variety for sure.


----------



## drjeff (May 17, 2022)

Short of the handful of ski areas still spinning lifts, the most "exciting" thing for some skiers/riders to pay attention to right now, is what is going on with the wildfires in AZ in particular as they close in on a ski area or two unfortunately. The overal ski stoke factor this time of year for the general public is always about as low as it gets at anytime of the year. So for right now atleast, to get back on topic, Vail sucks less due to other areas of general public interest!


----------



## Dickc (May 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Vail sucks less due to other areas of general public interest!


No, Vail STILL sucks we're just temporarily onto "other" things.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (May 17, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, in the USA yes they are.  Blackcomb is still skiing in Canada however.


With tons of snow and a fraction of the lifts that used to run this time of year.


----------



## 2Planker (May 17, 2022)

New Attitash GM is looking for houses in the MWV....
I find that kinda' amusing....  
I know a couple people who'd be more than happy to jack their price up 250-300K for a Vail Exec

 Lastly, folks who were "tentative, since last year" for summer employment, were just told NO JOBS this summer.
That includes Hotel/Restaurant staff....


----------



## drjeff (May 17, 2022)

Just read on a Liftblog tweet that it appears that Stowe still doesn't have the full permitting approval for their new 6 pack installation. The suck factor may have just increased a bit. If true though, some of that added suck factor has to also be cast on the VT State Gov't and their Act 250 folks!


----------



## cdskier (May 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just read on a Liftblog tweet that it appears that Stowe still doesn't have the full permitting approval for their new 6 pack installation. The suck factor may have just increased a bit. If true though, some of that added suck factor has to also be cast on the VT State Gov't and their Act 250 folks!



I don't necessarily know that you can blame VT State Gov't and Act 250 itself. The process allows for public comments and apparently there were quite a few...here's one of the most recent ones raising "concerns" about the electric needs to power the new lift: https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/S... Comments and SED 8-18-21 Meeting Minutes.pdf

And then here's another where the use of the implementation of the paid parking solution is being thrown back at Stowe as an argument against the new chair:


			https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/SPTemp/038%20Kovacs_Party%20Status%20Petition_Supplement%20with%20Exhibit%20A.pdf
		


(These last 2 were both received after the original end of the public comment period though...and after Stowe had responded to previous comments, so not sure if they're actually seriously being considered by the district commission or whether they just added them to the file for completeness and full transparency).

FWIW, Sugarbush didn't have final ACT 250 permits for both their Valley House and Village Quad lift installations until June of the years they were installed from what I just saw searching the ACT 250 db. So I don't know if Stowe not having a final permit yet is really an issue or not. There also could be more communications that Stowe has had with the commission informally to have a better idea of the true status vs just someone seeing on the ACT 250 website that it isn't finalized yet.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 17, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> With tons of snow and a fraction of the lifts that used to run this time of year.





machski said:


> Well, in the USA yes they are.  Blackcomb is still skiing in Canada however.


I heard it is closed.  Actually, looks like May 23rd is their last day.


----------



## ss20 (May 17, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just read on a Liftblog tweet that it appears that Stowe still doesn't have the full permitting approval for their new 6 pack installation. The suck factor may have just increased a bit. If true though, some of that added suck factor has to also be cast on the VT State Gov't and their Act 250 folks!



That would be amazing!


----------



## skiur (May 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't necessarily know that you can blame VT State Gov't and Act 250 itself. The process allows for public comments and apparently there were quite a few...here's one of the most recent ones raising "concerns" about the electric needs to power the new lift: https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/SPTemp/039 Spear Supplemental Comments and SED 8-18-21 Meeting Minutes.pdf
> 
> And then here's another where the use of the implementation of the paid parking solution is being thrown back at Stowe as an argument against the new chair:
> 
> ...



Neither link works.


----------



## cdskier (May 18, 2022)

skiur said:


> Neither link works.


Guess direct links don't work. Here's the general ACT 250 filing:





						Act 250 - 5L1338(Altered)-39
					






					anrweb.vt.gov
				




The documents I tried to link to are numbers 38 and 39 in the list in the filing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 18, 2022)

lots of people trying to tie the traffic issues to the lift replacement.  While the traffic issue needs addressed, trying to create red tape on a lift install seems silly and futile.


----------



## drjeff (May 18, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> lots of people trying to tie the traffic issues to the lift replacement.  While the traffic issue needs addressed, trying to create red tape on a lift install seems silly and futile.



Agree!  That seems more like trying to make the case that they couldn't make snow on such and such a day because one of the lawn mower's at their golf course was out of service then having the blades on one of it's cutting reels sharpened


----------



## tumbler (May 18, 2022)

Welcome to Vermont permitting and approvals.


----------



## machski (May 18, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> Don't forget Mammoth. Lot's of variety for sure.


That's a big one, only they and A-Basin have committed to the season into June (well, Timberline too but they are not part of any mega pass)


----------



## ThatGuy (May 19, 2022)

ctdubl07 said:


> You folks feeling ok?
> I come to this forum pretty much soley for this thread.
> Has it really been 2 weeks since Vail last sucked?


They’re back and better (at sucking) than ever.









						Getting Here | Stowe
					

Whether you’re traveling by plane, car, train or shuttle Stowe Mountain Resort is easy to get to and around.




					www.stowe.com


----------



## eatskisleep (May 19, 2022)

Jay peak just had it longest season?! Wildcat and Attitrash their shortest!


----------



## snoseek (May 19, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re back and better (at sucking) than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So no live verification? Sounds like theres no way to verify the the carpool thing. If thats the case theres your way in


----------



## cdskier (May 19, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re back and better (at sucking) than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe this is a silly question...but if there are no gates/checkpoints and no in person transactions/interactions, how do they know who has 4 or more people in their car?


----------



## chuckstah (May 19, 2022)

snoseek said:


> So no live verification? Sounds like theres no way to verify the the carpool thing. If thats the case theres your way in


It sounds just like at Mt Snow this season. We were told to park wherever you want except the front couple of rows where they occasionally checked. Employees just laughed and said you can pay if you want..... could change this season I'd guess if they have more staffing.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 19, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re back and better (at sucking) than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I saw the parking fees.  If they were replacing the Toll House Double with the six-pack then I would not feel as badly if I were a passholder because I could park there fore free and use that lift to get to where I want.  But that double is pretty slow and I imagine the lines there will now be longer due to the free parking.


----------



## ss20 (May 19, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> It sounds just like at Mt Snow this season. We were told to park wherever you want except the front couple of rows where they occasionally checked. Employees just laughed and said you can pay if you want..... could change this season I'd guess if they have more staffing.



Yikes!

Alta had a private company in charge of the parking reservations.  Worked well as it was really enforced and managed by people who knew what they were doing.  At least once a weekend I'd see a ticket on someone's car walking back to my own.


----------



## snoseek (May 19, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Alta had a private company in charge of the parking reservations.  Worked well as it was really enforced and managed by people who knew what they were doing.  At least once a weekend I'd see a ticket on someone's car walking back to my own.


How did this work for the employees that commuted into the lodges not owned by alta? Where did the rustler/snowpine commuters park?


----------



## chuckstah (May 19, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Alta had a private company in charge of the parking reservations.  Worked well as it was really enforced and managed by people who knew what they were doing.  At least once a weekend I'd see a ticket on someone's car walking back to my own.


I did see a handful of tickets in one occasion this season at Mount Snow, but as we were told they were only on the cars in the first row of Carinthia right on the snow. We were parked next row from the snow, no tickets on any cars. Noone near us that we spoke with had paid.


----------



## ss20 (May 19, 2022)

snoseek said:


> How did this work for the employees that commuted into the lodges not owned by alta? Where did the rustler/snowpine commuters park?



Not sure.  The town did maintain control of some of the parking, I'm ASSuming those lodges worked out a deal with them for the few "natives" that work up there.


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

30 bucks...wow...new level of sucking.


----------



## drjeff (May 20, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> I did see a handful of tickets in one occasion this season at Mount Snow, but as we were told they were only on the cars in the first row of Carinthia right on the snow. We were parked next row from the snow, no tickets on any cars. Noone near us that we spoke with had paid.


I know from seeing them firsthand on the windshields of cars near where mine was parked in the lot out behind the main base lodge, that they were ticketing cars that hadn't paid in that lot regularly during the majority of the season. And that was both midweek and weekends. Tapered off though after roughly Presidents Week from what I saw.


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

And how would they know if you have more than 2 people in the car?
Stowes lot is packed on weekends


----------



## drjeff (May 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And how would they know if you have more than 2 people in the car?
> Stowes lot is packed on weekends



I am sure that they will have developed the double super secret flux capacitor full vehicluar scanner that will either deploy road spikes to stop ones underfilled non paid vehicle or something similar to scan one's credit card or Epic pass at that moment


----------



## ThatGuy (May 20, 2022)

Get three of these babies and I’ll be rolling into Stowe for free


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

This all sounds like..a bad plan...


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

At JH the paid lot had a system like a parking garage..pay to get out..since carpooling will be free..thats a no go...


----------



## RH29 (May 20, 2022)

Vail still sucks, but my family plans on getting a two day Epic Day Pass for next season. Why? 

-70$/35$ for kids a day is a great deal.
-As far as trip planning goes, it's a nice complement to our Indy passes. My guess is that I'll use it on an early season daytrip to Mount Snow (The Indies took their time opening up this year) and a day at either Attitash or Wildcat during an Indy trip to Waterville Valley.
-Not going to spend money, aside from maybe lunch, at their resorts. No onsite hotels, no gear or rentals, no onsite restaurants.


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

And we will be at SB a little more now..
Good plan Vail....


----------



## chuckstah (May 20, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I know from seeing them firsthand on the windshields of cars near where mine was parked in the lot out behind the main base lodge, that they were ticketing cars that hadn't paid in that lot regularly during the majority of the season. And that was both midweek and weekends. Tapered off though after roughly Presidents Week from what I saw.


Makes sense that they check that lot with limited resources, as I believe you're talking about the lot that's been paid premium parking for years. My crew parked exclusively in the upper Carinthia lot without issue. A lot less days than you as well.


----------



## chuckstah (May 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And we will be at SB a little more now..
> Good plan Vail....


I was tailgating at Jay a couple weeks ago with a bunch of Stowe regulars all of whom said F Fail and paid parking.  They all bought Jay passes for next season. A 4 day pass didn't cut it. Seems the plan is working as planned to drive people away.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 20, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 54493
> Get three of these babies and I’ll be rolling into Stowe for free


----------



## NYDB (May 20, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And we will be at SB a little more now..
> Good plan Vail....


Don't they already have your pass money?  Why would they care?  I don't think you drop rental/lesson $ or big money on food and bev so, mission accomplished from their perspective.  Keep a spot free for the people who will drop $500 /day on extras


----------



## Kingslug20 (May 20, 2022)

Ill be at stowe monday to thursday most times..only time i go weekends is when my wife wants to go..so its not affecting me much. We could hit stowe some weekends and SB others. 
Plan on spending more time at Jay as well.


----------



## machski (May 21, 2022)

Well, we just pulled the trigger on Epic 3 day.  Friends own a home now in Jackson and they have gone full Epic, so gives us 2 days to ski with them (couple it to Black and Jackson X-C on our Indy) and a day at Stowe.  Need to get back there at least once, mon-thurs that is


----------



## FBGM (May 22, 2022)

Park City is still not fully permitted yet for their lifts. City/Town hanging it up. The only thing bigger then Vail is that town. They can make them miserable and it seems they are doing so. Good on them


----------



## machski (May 22, 2022)

Vail closed Breck last weekend, looked like this then from the air:

Now I see the town of Breckenridge is reporting over 18" from the storm yesterday.  Nice Vail, good call


----------



## cdskier (May 22, 2022)

State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death
					

“Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 22, 2022)

Thats terrible.  They go out of their way to not open terrain that is safe to ski and wouldn't replace a critical piece of equipment as recommended. 

How awful for the family.  This was totally preventable...


----------



## crystalmountainskier (May 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death
> 
> 
> “Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.
> ...


The state's report is shocking. Vail Exec comes up with 4 different reasons he doesn't want to follow manufacturer requirement to replace lanyards annually. $26 lanyards are not replaced for years. Lanyard fails and sends poor employee to the ground at 80 miles an hour. No documented training or inspections of said equipment.

The guy in Broomfield literally accused the zip line company of trying to pump up Petzl's gear sales. And he's still there.



			https://webpubcontent.gray.tv/wcax/docs/VOSHA%20Case%20No.%201570437%20Right%20Side_Redacted.pdf


----------



## cdskier (May 22, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Thats terrible.  They go out of their way to not open terrain that is safe to ski and wouldn't replace a critical piece of equipment as recommended.
> 
> How awful for the family.  This was totally preventable...



Absolutely insane. A critical and *inexpensive *piece of equipment and you push back on replacing it? Absolutely mind-boggling.



crystalmountainskier said:


> The state's report is shocking. Vail Exec comes up with 4 different reasons he doesn't want to follow manufacturer requirement to replace lanyards annually. $26 lanyards are not replaced for years. Lanyard fails and sends poor employee to the ground at 80 miles an hour. No documented training or inspections of said equipment.
> 
> The guy in Broomfield literally accused the zip line company of trying to pump up Petzl's gear sales. And he's still there.
> 
> ...



I just don't get it at all. A $26 piece of equipment and you argue with the recommendations of the manufacturer? Even if you had to replace 1,000 of them that would still be pennies for a company the size of Vail. The "inspections" and lack of someone officially certified by the manufacturer to perform those inspections is pretty crazy too.

I really never expected to see the investigation find such a major vault with Vail in this accident. For a company that always claims to focus so much on "safety" for their ski operations, the corners they cut here are just inexcusable and completely nonsensical.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death
> 
> 
> “Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.
> ...


Give me an L-A-W-S-U-I-T.

What’s that spell?  Vail Sucks.


----------



## Smellytele (May 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Absolutely insane. A critical and *inexpensive *piece of equipment and you push back on replacing it? Absolutely mind-boggling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well they rolled the dice. If they had to replace 1000 At this moment it would have only saved them $1000 as the fine was only 27k. Obviously they still will get sued but the insurance will cover that.


----------



## hovercraft (May 23, 2022)

It only took them 10 days after buying Stowe to start “The Suck”


----------



## cdskier (May 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Well they rolled the dice. If they had to replace 1000 At this moment it would have only saved them $1000 as the fine was only 27k. Obviously they still will get sued but the insurance will cover that.


I don't think they actually have anywhere near 1000 lanyards though...I picked that number to over-exaggerate. So the actual replacement cost should have been substantially less.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (May 23, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't think they actually have anywhere near 1000 lanyards though...I picked that number to over-exaggerate. So the actual replacement cost should have been substantially less.


VOSHA report says they bought 50 in 2019 at a cost of $26 each. We’re talking about $1,300 for a company with 2019 revenue of $2.3 billion.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 23, 2022)

So sketchy.  I wonder how common such lack of maintenance is prevalent on Ziplines.   My son really wants to do the one at Gunstock.  Now I'm not so sure....


----------



## cdskier (May 23, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> VOSHA report says they bought 50 in 2019 at a cost of $26 each. We’re talking about $1,300 for a company with 2019 revenue of $2.3 billion.


Yup...although we don't know if 50 represents their entire inventory or whether they just purchased 50 with the intention of having spares on hand to replace part of their inventory if needed though. Either way it is still peanuts.


----------



## RichT (May 23, 2022)

Enhancing the guest experience at the cost of the employee!


----------



## jaytrem (May 23, 2022)

RichT said:


> Enhancing the guest experience at the cost of the employee!


Sounds like it just happened to be an employee, but could have just as easily been a guest.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The state's report is shocking. Vail Exec comes up with 4 different reasons he doesn't want to follow manufacturer requirement to replace lanyards annually. $26 lanyards are not replaced for years. Lanyard fails and sends poor employee to the ground at 80 miles an hour. No documented training or inspections of said equipment.
> 
> The guy in Broomfield literally accused the zip line company of trying to pump up Petzl's gear sales. And he's still there.
> 
> ...





RichT said:


> Enhancing the guest experience at the cost of the employee!



"It's a war, son.  We lose Stormtroopers everyday!"


----------



## cdskier (May 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So the decedent was an employee, so that’s workers comp.  But I imagine that the family will try to sue Petzl because of product defect.


What are the chances of successful lawsuit against Petzl for product defect? If they outline a particular replacement interval and someone doesn't follow that and it fails after that time, that doesn't really seem like a product defect to me. 



thetrailboss said:


> Who thinks that there are going to be some killer deals this summer on the Stowe Zip Line?
> 
> Am I right folks?



Not really sure this is a topic to be making jokes about...

And on a serious note, Stowe's not running the zip line this summer (and it is unclear if they ever plan to re-open it).


----------



## machski (May 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Well they rolled the dice. If they had to replace 1000 At this moment it would have only saved them $1000 as the fine was only 27k. Obviously they still will get sued but the insurance will cover that.


Probably not given this finding they did not follow equipment manufacturer guidance.  Vail will be paying out of pocket most likely for any lawsuits.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2022)

So this gives some additional context:









						State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death
					

“Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.



					vtdigger.org
				




Apparently the issue is that the vendor/company that built the zip line and provided the equipment told Vail to replace these lanyards annually.  Apparently, Petzl has a different standard and different replacement schedule:



> “The term heavy use is undefinable,” Barrow replied. “We are not willing to accept your change to another company’s retirement criteria without a clear safety alert or service bulletin per ASTM We will continue to follow the Petzl retirement data that is clear and definitive.” (ATSM was formerly known as American Society for Testing and Materials.)



It also sounds like Vail may have stopped "inspections" by Terra Nova after 2019 or so.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 23, 2022)

So a few weeks ago someone posted on hear saying they were affiliated with the deceased and that members of his family read this forum, I think we should dial back the jokes and bad taste comments.  I know they are aimed at Vail, but someone unnecessarily lost their life.

I might just be better to move on.. and hate on them for fucking up skiing.


----------



## cdskier (May 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So this gives some additional context:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In reading the VOSHA report itself, one of the documents referenced is Petzl's own PPE inspection form for the lanyard. That form specifically lays out the same time-lines as what Terra Nova referenced:


Vail's "issue" was they seemingly didn't agree with Terra Nova's assessment that a zip line constitutes "intensive" use as opposed to "normal" use. Although even based on the "normal" use guidelines, depending on the exact number of months that particular lanyard was in use on the zip line, it may well have been near or even past the 12 month mark anyway, making Vail's argument against replacement even weaker.


----------



## snoseek (May 23, 2022)

Remember that time the zipline snapped at heavenly and wrapped up the adjacent chair killing a dude on his honeymoon...


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Remember that time the zipline snapped at heavenly and wrapped up the adjacent chair killing a dude on his honeymoon...


Did Vail own it then?


----------



## snoseek (May 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Did Vail own it then?


You're damn right they did and they settled with and undisclosed amount of money


----------



## 2Planker (May 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> "It's a war, son.  We lose Stormtroopers everyday!"
> 
> View attachment 54504


So glad to see that they're all wearing Conterra Radio harnesses 
Came out of SR,  circa late 80's.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2022)

snoseek said:


> You're damn right they did and they settled with and undisclosed amount of money


Well, if it was before this Stowe incident, then Vail CERTAINLY should have been EXTRA careful in running zip lines.


----------



## nycskier (May 24, 2022)

machski said:


> Vail closed Breck last weekend, looked like this then from the air:
> View attachment 54503
> Now I see the town of Breckenridge is reporting over 18" from the storm yesterday.  Nice Vail, good call


Vail closing Breck last week is an absolute disgrace. They just got a ton of snow and Abasin was packed.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (May 24, 2022)

nycskier said:


> Vail closing Breck last week is an absolute disgrace. They just got a ton of snow and Abasin was packed.


Vail's opening and closing dates have virtually nothing to do with weather. Determined by data-driven marketing calendar analysis benchmarks blah blah blah blah blah.


----------



## nycskier (May 24, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Vail's opening and closing dates have virtually nothing to do with weather. Determined by data-driven marketing calendar analysis benchmarks blah blah blah blah blah.


Vail said they were keeping Breck open until May 30th. Then they closed it 2 weeks earlier because of weather conditions. They promised it would be open through Memorial day weekend and then they backtracked on it.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 24, 2022)

nycskier said:


> Vail said they were keeping Breck open until May 30th. Then they closed it 2 weeks earlier because of weather conditions. They promised it would be open through Memorial day weekend and then they backtracked on it.



"You gotta problem with that, big guy?"


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 24, 2022)

Wasn't Breck melting out when they decided to close?  They definitely had stated they would be open until Memorial day.  I know A-Basin had lost a lot of snow and they had started farming snow to be able to stay open into June.


----------



## drjeff (May 24, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Wasn't Breck melting out when they decided to close?  They definitely had stated they would be open until Memorial day.  I know A-Basin had lost a lot of snow and they had started farming snow to be able to stay open into June.



Yup, there were a bunch of pictures from down near the base where it had gotten very thin around when they closed. With the ground warming, reality is that what fell there over the weekend, down low fell onto thawed ground and while from afar looked good, likely was just a fresh coat of paint on top of a non usable surface underneath for a product that would of stood up to some folks making turns on it


----------



## ss20 (May 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Yup, there were a bunch of pictures from down near the base where it had gotten very thin around when they closed. With the ground warming, reality is that what fell there over the weekend, down low fell onto thawed ground and while from afar looked good, likely was just a fresh coat of paint on top of a non usable surface underneath for a product that would of stood up to some folks making turns on it



That was our problem out here early and late season.  Snowbird down low was totally exposed off the snowmaking trails til the late December storms.  Then when we finally got some good snow again in the spring it wouldn't hold.


----------



## drjeff (May 24, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That was our problem out here early and late season.  Snowbird down low was totally exposed off the snowmaking trails til the late December storms.  Then when we finally got some good snow again in the spring it wouldn't hold.



Yup, and this time of year, a late season storm on top of a thawing, warming, muddy groud does behave diferently than an early season storm on top of a cooling, muddy ground. Granted, both are less than ideal for keeping the underlying ground/rocks covered


----------



## machski (May 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Yup, there were a bunch of pictures from down near the base where it had gotten very thin around when they closed. With the ground warming, reality is that what fell there over the weekend, down low fell onto thawed ground and while from afar looked good, likely was just a fresh coat of paint on top of a non usable surface underneath for a product that would of stood up to some folks making turns on it


You need to add to this that Vail didn't put down enough manmade early on at Breck to help allow the long season they were promising.  It was very thin when we got there down low on March 4th.  Had it not snow the next 3 days, the conditions there would have been brutal.  Regardless, the crowds everyday were.  Was not impressed at all.  
Snowbird's ops this year are an outlier and can't be compared as they do not have Tram download options this year that they normally would.  Vail could have farmed into this storm cycle (again, town level reported 18 inches Saturday.  I think that would go a decent way to shore up lower terrain) but they took the easy way out.  But I have no doubt CO folks will still buy up the Epic in large numbers.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2022)

machski said:


> You need to add to this that Vail didn't put down enough manmade early on at Breck to help allow the long season they were promising.  It was very thin when we got there down low on March 4th.  Had it not snow the next 3 days, the conditions there would have been brutal.  Regardless, the crowds everyday were.  Was not impressed at all.
> Snowbird's ops this year are an outlier and can't be compared as they do not have Tram download options this year that they normally would.  Vail could have farmed into this storm cycle (again, town level reported 18 inches Saturday.  I think that would go a decent way to shore up lower terrain) but they took the easy way out.  But I have no doubt CO folks will still buy up the Epic in large numbers.


The Tram was an issue at Snowbird but lack of adequate staff and $$$ were bigger concerns according to many I have talked with.  Most of the issue is that the former management that specialized in spring ops left. So the desire and experience to make long seasons happen have both evaporated.


----------



## slatham (May 25, 2022)

I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process. 

Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (May 25, 2022)

I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.


----------



## tumbler (May 25, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.


That is some of it for sure but this is permitting and approvals 101 in Vermont.  It is very difficult to get anything approved in Vt.


----------



## ss20 (May 25, 2022)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.



Similar to Park City. That's definitely what's going on here, imo.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2022)

slatham said:


> I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process.
> 
> Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.


This, unfortunately, is how Act 250 works (or doesn't).  If five people don't like something or are NIMBY that is enough to derail a project regardless of its merits.  I saw this happen repeatedly during my time working in Vermont.  We had one national retailer that wanted to locate a new store in an existing retail development.  Most of the public wanted it.  But a local merchant, who was a competitor, convinced a few of his friends to object. They made up absurd excuses, appealed, and appealed again.  Lots of unnecessary legal fees before the project died.

The unintended consequence?  Look at Vermont and you will see there is little to no competition in major industries.  Those that do get a foothold don't want anyone else to come.


----------



## ss20 (May 25, 2022)

tumbler said:


> That is some of it for sure but this is permitting and approvals 101 in Vermont.  It is very difficult to get anything approved in Vt.



I don't think so.  It's a lift replacement.  Same line, minimal tree work, easy to permit even in Vermont.  There's a few every year and I can't recall any time before it's been held up


----------



## ss20 (May 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> This, unfortunately, is how Act 250 works (or doesn't).  If five people don't like something or are NIMBY that is enough to derail a project regardless of its merits.



It's a shame.  The program started because Stratton wanted to put in 1,000s of condo units without upgrading the towns sewage plant.  Now it's a way for kayakers who use a river 150 miles downstream of a mountain to stop a snowmaking expansion because it'll drop the river level .0047 inches 10 days of the year.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2022)

ss20 said:


> It's a shame.  The program started because Stratton wanted to put in 1,000s of condo units without upgrading the towns sewage plant.  Now it's a way for kayakers who use a river 150 miles downstream of a mountain to stop a snowmaking expansion because it'll drop the river level .0047 inches 10 days of the year.


This and rampant development at Mount Snow with lots of problems.

What many don't know is that the original intent was to create (1) regulations as to development (Act 250), AND (2) a comprehensive plan as to WHAT could be developed (land use planning) for the state.  Only (1) got implemented.  The stick without the carrot.  And a lot of people in power abuse that power and are too punitive.  Lots and lots of jobs and companies have left over the decades because of the open hostility.


----------



## tumbler (May 25, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think so.  It's a lift replacement.  Same line, minimal tree work, easy to permit even in Vermont.  There's a few every year and I can't recall any time before it's been held up


True that it is just a lift but a new parking lot was also denied.  Everything can be viewed that a Town does not want something.  You have to fight to build anything in Vt.


----------



## cdskier (May 25, 2022)

slatham said:


> I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process.
> 
> Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.


They rejected the request for a hearing for all those public comments at this point. This is outlined in the document posted 5/20 to the file: https://anrweb.vt.gov/anr/act250/Details.aspx?Num=5L1338(Altered)-39



As of 5/20 when this "decision" was issued, they were only waiting on the stormwater permit to be submitted. And it looks like that permit was submitted to the ACT 250 District Commission yesterday...so I'd expect the final permit to be issued soon assuming there are no questions/issues with the stormwater permit that was submitted.


----------



## thebigo (May 25, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The unintended consequence?  Look at Vermont and you will see there is little to no competition in major industries.  Those that do get a foothold don't want anyone else to come.


Always been shocked by the grocery prices in Vermont. Not talking about K access road but major grocery chains in Rutland. The same product is often 25% - 33% higher than NH.


----------



## drjeff (May 25, 2022)

The words "Vermont" and "business frienfly environment" are almost never uttered in the same sentence for sure.

There does come a point where the concept of preserving the charm of a region and significantly handicapping the economic ability of it's residents to advance and thrive can and do significantly compete against each other. And as such in an effort to keep some things out, many policy makers in VT also end up making it much tougher for their residents, and especially the younger residents, to economically thrive, and want to stay in VT in significant numbers.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Always been shocked by the grocery prices in Vermont. Not talking about K access road but major grocery chains in Rutland. The same product is often 25% - 33% higher than NH.


Because people basically have (1) Price Chopper, or (2) Hannaford in most areas.


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## thetrailboss (May 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> There does come a point where the concept of preserving the charm of a region and significantly handicapping the economic ability of it's residents to advance and thrive can and do significantly compete against each other. And as such in an effort to keep some things out, many policy makers in VT also end up making it much tougher for their residents, and especially the younger residents, to economically thrive, and want to stay in VT in significant numbers.


This.  My wife and I are Exhibit A for young professionals leaving.  There are not enough young professionals in Vermont and the demographics are screwing things up in more ways than one.


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## JoeB-Z (May 25, 2022)

Eastern Vermont is a retail desert. My house is in Ascutney so Claremont NH is where I shop. Market Basket is a great super market. I worked in a super market as a teenager and I can size them up in no time.


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## cdskier (May 25, 2022)

The Stowe ACT 250 permit for the new lift has now been officially issued...


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## FBGM (May 25, 2022)

Just saw a video from Attatash going over whatever they are doing there this summer coming from their mountain ops manager. Holy shit I’d didn’t know. You guys are fucked. 100% fucked with her overseeing Mt Opps. Go ski anywhere else.


----------



## chuckstah (May 25, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Just saw a video from Attatash going over whatever they are doing there this summer coming from their mountain ops manager. Holy shit I’d didn’t know. You guys are fucked. 100% fucked with her overseeing Mt Opps. Go ski anywhere else.


Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.


----------



## thebigo (May 25, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.


Link?


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## FBGM (May 25, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.


She has mainly held roles in health and safety with Vail. I don’t understand how she is now a director of mountain operations. Blows my mind.


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## cdskier (May 25, 2022)

FBGM said:


> She has mainly held roles in health and safety with Vail. I don’t understand how she is now a director of mountain operations. Blows my mind.



Maybe Vail just picks candidates for management openings out of a hat?


----------



## bigbob (May 25, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Link?


It's on their Facebook page.








						Attitash Ski Resort
					

Attitash Ski Resort, Bartlett, NH. 29,168 likes · 611 talking about this · 74,607 were here. In the heart of NH's White Mountains | 68 trails, 9 lifts across two peaks | Mountain Coaster | Summer...




					www.facebook.com
				






thebigo said:


> Link?


----------



## FBGM (May 25, 2022)

Okay my apologizes. I mixed this lady up with the health and safety lady Dana out of New England. This lady comes from a lift operation background out of PC/Canyons. 

I’m sure Attatash is still fucked just because it’s Vail. But at-least it’s not the lady I thought at first.


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## JimG. (May 26, 2022)

I wonder if we can figure out if Vail sucks more in winter or summer?


----------



## RichT (May 26, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I wonder if we can figure out if Vail sucks more in winter or summer?


I'm thinking 24/7 right now.............hoping it changes


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## 2Planker (May 26, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.


No shit !   Their timeline is way too ambitious. Especially since 1/2 of the Mt Ops newly hired crew walked out last week, as they were  starting to dismantle the slide.   In 40 years of working in the ski biz in ME, VT & N,  I have never seen anyone FUCK UP a Mt more than these assholes have done w/ both WC & Attitash.


I can name 30 quality people, with many years of experience who have left, and taken their family with them.
BW, Black, Shawnee and King Pine all fully staffed by ExVail people.
Epic Pass sales are down in NH, while Cannon & BW are headed for the best sales ever...


----------



## slatham (May 26, 2022)

The Attitash crew should take a lesson from what Mt Snow just posted on FB. Definitely not a fail.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (May 27, 2022)

slatham said:


> The Attitash crew should take a lesson from what Mt Snow just posted on FB. Definitely not a fail.


They both posted virtually the same thing along with other resorts in the Midwest. Everything Vail does is corporate and calculated.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> They both posted virtually the same thing along with other resorts in the Midwest. Everything Vail does is corporate and calculated.



And that's ultimately the biggest problem I have with Vail.   I get that branding and delivering consistency is quite normal in the big business world.   But that line of thinking can also drive away some customers as well.   If you don't like one McDonald's are you going to try another one?  No, because you know what to expect.

And corporate consistency is the antithesis of what ski areas have always been about.  The goal has always been to create a unique brand just for that mountain.  Everything from how it's operated to the names of the lifts and trails, to the target market of customers.  Alterra / Ikon seems to get this.  Stratton and Sugarbush are still very unique from one another.   Their reputations stand on their own.  Then you look at Snow, Okemo and Stowe and their reputations are interconnected.  You expect paid parking, poor communication, heavy crowding, slower snowmaking expansion than historical norms for those areas ect. 

I thought I'd love Epic when they moved into the Northeast market.  That Wildcat, Attitash and Crotched would remain largely the same as I had enjoyed for the past decade under Peak and that now I'd have the benefit of having access to Stowe affordably.  The only thing better since they've arrived has been the price.  Every single one of their Northeast mountains offered a better product before they took over and brought their McSkiing business philosophy here.


----------



## eatskisleep (May 27, 2022)

2Planker said:


> No shit !   Their timeline is way too ambitious. Especially since 1/2 of the Mt Ops newly hired crew walked out last week, as they were  starting to dismantle the slide.   In 40 years of working in the ski biz in ME, VT & N,  I have never seen anyone FUCK UP a Mt more than these assholes have done w/ both WC & Attitash.
> 
> 
> I can name 30 quality people, with many years of experience who have left, and taken their family with them.
> ...


Are the slides ever coming back?


----------



## machski (May 27, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Are the slides ever coming back?


No


----------



## machski (May 27, 2022)

Well, this belongs in an Alterra thread, but Rusty Gregory is stepping down to be replaced by Jared Smith, the former LiveNation and Ticketmaster CEO.  He's been with Alterra for just about a year.  Hmmmmm........


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 27, 2022)

Oh fuck...  ticketmaster and Livenation are the worst


----------



## snoseek (May 27, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Oh fuck...  ticketmaster and Livenation are the worst


Maybe we can get Comcast execs onboard as well


----------



## 2Planker (May 27, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Maybe we can get Comcast execs onboard as well


I dunno.... 
 I think I'd rather have the Food & Beverage Manager.  
WTF is the world coming too ??


----------



## ThatGuy (May 27, 2022)

Bean counters are taking over the world


----------



## eatskisleep (May 27, 2022)

machski said:


> No


That’s sad. So many fond memories there as a kid and teenager.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, this belongs in an Alterra thread, but Rusty Gregory is stepping down to be replaced by Jared Smith, the former LiveNation and Ticketmaster CEO.  He's been with Alterra for just about a year.  Hmmmmm........



Scalping and dynamic pricing coming to a ski resort near you


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jun 1, 2022)

Saw Jared Smith speak at a sports analytics conference a few years back about how shifting to digital ticketing would positively impact the consumer.  Not sure I've seen a more soulless, self-serving presentation in my career.  I'm not optimistic with that transition.


----------



## gittist (Jun 2, 2022)

Soooo, everyone is looking forward to a wonderful, enjoyable, snowy, uncrowded with excellent snow making at your local well managed Vail Resort next season! . Next year will be great!! And best of all PAID PARKING to reduce the crowding!! wooo hooo!


----------



## raisingarizona (Jun 2, 2022)

Paying for parking really enhances my guest experience. It’s great.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jun 3, 2022)

Makes it...special...


----------



## Harvey (Jun 3, 2022)




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## RichT (Jun 5, 2022)

gittist said:


> Soooo, everyone is looking forward to a wonderful, enjoyable, snowy, uncrowded with excellent snow making at your local well managed Vail Resort next season! . Next year will be great!! And best of all PAID PARKING to reduce the crowding!! wooo hooo!


The southern NY and eastern PA resorts are going to be NUTS this year if gas prices stay or go up further then they are now. Northern Vermont ski areas should be sweet!


----------



## eatskisleep (Jun 6, 2022)

RichT said:


> The southern NY and eastern PA resorts are going to be NUTS this year if gas prices stay or go up further then they are now. Northern Vermont ski areas should be sweet!


North Conway area has been a ghost town lately. Gas prices already hitting hard up there.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 6, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> North Conway area has been a ghost town lately. Gas prices already hitting hard up there.


So true !  Town was empty this past weekend.  No reserv necessary anywhere on a Sat night....

NH Toll Traffic has NOT seen any significant drop in #'s so far......


----------



## machski (Jun 6, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> North Conway area has been a ghost town lately. Gas prices already hitting hard up there.


We were over camping in Franconia Wed-Sat.  It was a ghostown at the campground Wednesday but got busier as the weekend approached.  Still  not full summer season yet, guessing folks will pull back on longer distance short length trips, still to be seen if longer time length travels will be affected as well.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 6, 2022)

machski said:


> We were over camping in Franconia Wed-Sat.  It was a ghostown at the campground Wednesday but got busier as the weekend approached.  Still  not full summer season yet, guessing folks will pull back on longer distance short length trips, still to be seen if longer time length travels will be affected as well.


At least there are no more Canadians coming to Pittsburgh (NH) to buy gas


----------



## machski (Jun 6, 2022)

2Planker said:


> At least there are no more Canadians coming to Pittsburgh (NH) to buy gas


Yeah, it's a bit more up there still, but with their negative exchange rate, not much of a savings now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2022)

Former Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz Addresses Overcrowding and Takes Responsibility for Staffing Shortages - SnowBrains
					

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast has been given a recording of former Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz's acceptance speech at the NSAA awards




					snowbrains.com


----------



## Edd (Jun 6, 2022)

So those pics of mile long lift lines are the norm? These aren’t the droids you’re looking for? Stowe’s parking problems aren’t real? Fuck off.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 6, 2022)

He is such a self serving piece of shit.  Sure they didn't exceed any peak days.  But how many days were closer to the peak than there used to be? the average number of people on the hills has been raised, which is exactly what someone who's only worried about making money for shareholders cares about. 

How long are there seriously going to play the covid short staffed card...


----------



## eatskisleep (Jun 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> He is such a self serving piece of shit.  Sure they didn't exceed any peak days.  But how many days were closer to the peak than there used to be? the average number of people on the hills has been raised, which is exactly what someone who's only worried about making money for shareholders cares about.
> 
> How long are there seriously going to play the covid short staffed card...


Number of people average has been raised while operating less lifts, less snowmaking, shorter season, less staff. It’s a shit show!


----------



## FBGM (Jun 7, 2022)

Rob Katz is the cancer of skiing. Thanks for ruining every resort you touch


----------



## cdskier (Jun 7, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> He is such a self serving piece of shit.  Sure they didn't exceed any peak days.  But how many days were closer to the peak than there used to be? the average number of people on the hills has been raised, which is exactly what someone who's only worried about making money for shareholders cares about.
> 
> How long are there seriously going to play the covid short staffed card...



"None even came close to their historical peak days". There's just so many questions from that response by Katz. What are they using as that actual "peak" basis? Was it some random powder day on a holiday that drew record crowds years ago? Have other skier behavior patterns changed that result in more crowds at a particular time? For example, maybe on a previous peak day years ago you had 1000 people show up (just using this number for simplicity). But maybe 500 of those people showed up in the morning and 500 showed up in the afternoon and you really never had most of those people on the hill at the same time so it didn't feel overly crowded. And maybe now you had 900 people showing up, but maybe the bulk of them all showed up at the same time. From a numbers perspective, sure, that could be "not even close to historical peak", but from a skier experience perspective it would be very different.

And also very valid point you raise about "how many days were closer to the peak than there used to be". In the past people concerned about crowds knew to avoid certain widely well known peak days. If those "close to peak, but not actually peak" days now happen on a regular basis, the perception of those people that used to be able to avoid the worst days now completely changes as they can no longer do that.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 7, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Rob Katz is the cancer of skiing. Thanks for ruining every resort you *Douche *




I fixed it for you because I want the message to be clear! 

He's so incredibly full of himself and his "lets make skiing for everyone"  mantra.   He's right the industry does want to include more people and gather new people to the sport.  However, there are better ways to do it besides making it cheap and then nickle and diming people while providing a shitty experience.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> "None even came close to their historical peak days". There's just so many questions from that response by Katz. What are they using as that actual "peak" basis? Was it some random powder day on a holiday that drew record crowds years ago? Have other skier behavior patterns changed that result in more crowds at a particular time? For example, maybe on a previous peak day years ago you had 1000 people show up (just using this number for simplicity). But maybe 500 of those people showed up in the morning and 500 showed up in the afternoon and you really never had most of those people on the hill at the same time so it didn't feel overly crowded. And maybe now you had 900 people showing up, but maybe the bulk of them all showed up at the same time. From a numbers perspective, sure, that could be "not even close to historical peak", but from a skier experience perspective it would be very different.
> 
> And also very valid point you raise about "how many days were closer to the peak than there used to be". In the past people concerned about crowds knew to avoid certain widely well known peak days. If those "close to peak, but not actually peak" days now happen on a regular basis, the perception of those people that used to be able to avoid the worst days now completely changes as they can no longer do that.



Very true, lotta ways to interpret his quotes.  Lots of resorts, even the destinations ones, don't/can't run literally all their lifts anymore it seems.  Especially this season with staffing shortages.  While a few old fixed-grip lifts not running may seem like it wouldn't have an impact on lift lines, it's those fixed-grip lifts that act as "people eaters" since the chair spacing is tighter and the ride time is longer.  If you have 400 people, you can fit 200 on 50 chairs on a HSQ and the other 200 will be waiting in line.  On a fixed grip you can fit all 400 people on the chair with no line as there's twice as many chairs.  And when there's staffing shortages it's usually the long fixed-grip lifts that are first to go unused.


----------



## machski (Jun 7, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Very true, lotta ways to interpret his quotes.  Lots of resorts, even the destinations ones, don't/can't run literally all their lifts anymore it seems.  Especially this season with staffing shortages.  While a few old fixed-grip lifts not running may seem like it wouldn't have an impact on lift lines, it's those fixed-grip lifts that act as "people eaters" since the chair spacing is tighter and the ride time is longer.  If you have 400 people, you can fit 200 on 50 chairs on a HSQ and the other 200 will be waiting in line.  On a fixed grip you can fit all 400 people on the chair with no line as there's twice as many chairs.  And when there's staffing shortages it's usually the long fixed-grip lifts that are first to go unused.


Ok, this makes almost no sense.  Just because a FGC has more chairs, doesn't mean it reduces lines.  They also run at least than half the speed of detaches (often FGC are not run at their full operating speeds to make loading easier.  So a FGQ will potentially run at 1/4 the speed of new, modern D-Line equipment).  The FG slow speeds negate any line eating capacity over detaches given their slow speeds.  They usually don't have lines if they are near detaches as folks vastly prefer riding detach chairs.


----------



## gittist (Jun 7, 2022)

machski said:


> Ok, this makes almost no sense.  Just because a FGC has more chairs, doesn't mean it reduces lines.  They also run at least than half the speed of detaches (often FGC are not run at their full operating speeds to make loading easier.  So a FGQ will potentially run at 1/4 the speed of new, modern D-Line equipment).  The FG slow speeds negate any line eating capacity over detaches given their slow speeds.  They usually don't have lines if they are near detaches as folks vastly prefer riding detach chairs.


I guess that's why they're putting FGCs in at Jack Frost and other places. I read someplace that Vail was under the impression that people liked 'quads', what I don't think they realized is that we like FAST detachable quads...but then again maybe there's some ulterior motives involved. Like food kiosks along the lift lines to increase the revenue.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 7, 2022)

There's literally no reason for a high speed lift at JF.  If they just ran all of the lifts the line problems wouldn't be as bad.


----------



## machski (Jun 7, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There's literally no reason for a high speed lift at JF.  If they just ran all of the lifts the line problems wouldn't be as bad.


True, there are plenty of areas where High Speed lifts are just overkill or put in to be flashy.  4000' line lengths and shorter really do not justify the higher install and the double + operational expense of a detach in most cases IMHO .  Now, larger high revenue resorts that can afford them make some sense, especially in novice alignments and high traffic areas.  Otherwise, 9 minute or less rid times aren't ridiculous.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 7, 2022)

machski said:


> Ok, this makes almost no sense.  Just because a FGC has more chairs, doesn't mean it reduces lines.  They also run at least than half the speed of detaches (often FGC are not run at their full operating speeds to make loading easier.  So a FGQ will potentially run at 1/4 the speed of new, modern D-Line equipment).  The FG slow speeds negate any line eating capacity over detaches given their slow speeds.  They usually don't have lines if they are near detaches as folks vastly prefer riding detach chairs.



Detaches rarely run at full speed either.  Both HSQ's and FGQ's usually have the same name-plate capacity of 2000-2400pph and the same chair loading interval.  But my argument is not hourly capacity or guest preference- look at it through the lense of CCC.  Let's say your resort has one chairlift and a couple trails.  With a FGQ that has 100 chairs you can have 200 people riding the lift.  Let's assume for simplicity that your trail capacity is also 200 people, and a comfortable lift line is also 200 people.  If you build a HSQ now you have 50 chairs and you can only have 100 people riding the lift.  Your trail capacity is still 200 and a comfortable lift line is also still 200 so you're going to exceed your CCC on one of those fronts if you still have 600 visitors.

Essentially it's the familiar paradox of long wait time for a short lift ride or short wait time for a long lift ride.  In Vails case where the lifts lines were a key issue this season, running the backup lifts that are fixed grip would be an efficient way of reducing lift lines because you'd at least have people sitting on chairs rather than standing in line.


----------



## gittist (Jun 7, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There's literally no reason for a high speed lift at JF.  If they just ran all of the lifts the line problems wouldn't be as bad.


Or if they sped up the ones they run Monday to Thursday; I don't do weekends. My butt gets worn out long before my 64 year old legs do b/c the damn lifts are so bloody slow. I spend more time on the lift than I do skiing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 7, 2022)

That's PA skiing for you. 5 or more minutes up and 1 minute down. 

The lifts are old and slow there...


----------



## drjeff (Jun 8, 2022)

The lower loading speeds of a highspeed lift does actually help some lower level skiers and riders with loading and unloading and instructors with lower level groups as well as younger kids often find loading a highspeed easier than a fixed grip chair,

Sometimes one of the benefits of a highspeed lift has nothing to do with the travel time from base terminal to summit terminal, but has something to do with ease of some guests getting on/off a lift


----------



## machski (Jun 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Detaches rarely run at full speed either.  Both HSQ's and FGQ's usually have the same name-plate capacity of 2000-2400pph and the same chair loading interval.  But my argument is not hourly capacity or guest preference- look at it through the lense of CCC.  Let's say your resort has one chairlift and a couple trails.  With a FGQ that has 100 chairs you can have 200 people riding the lift.  Let's assume for simplicity that your trail capacity is also 200 people, and a comfortable lift line is also 200 people.  If you build a HSQ now you have 50 chairs and you can only have 100 people riding the lift.  Your trail capacity is still 200 and a comfortable lift line is also still 200 so you're going to exceed your CCC on one of those fronts if you still have 600 visitors.
> 
> Essentially it's the familiar paradox of long wait time for a short lift ride or short wait time for a long lift ride.  In Vails case where the lifts lines were a key issue this season, running the backup lifts that are fixed grip would be an efficient way of reducing lift lines because you'd at least have people sitting on chairs rather than standing in line.


If your name is the Quicksilver 6 at Breck, then yes that rarely runs at full speed.  Most other High Speed lifts do actually run regularly at their planned full rated speed (granted the lift could be rated a bit faster, but most are run at 1000 FPM although many are rated at 1100 FPM.  The newer D-Line from Dopp are rated at 1200 FPM and most of those are actually run at that).  I get the extra folks hanging on the chair instead of on the trail.  That is fine at smaller resorts, but you are not going to string up FG lifts at larger resorts on longer lines just to hang more folks on the chairs vs trails.


----------



## Harvey (Jun 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Former Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz Addresses Overcrowding and Takes Responsibility for Staffing Shortages - SnowBrains
> 
> 
> The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast has been given a recording of former Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz's acceptance speech at the NSAA awards
> ...



Katz is a smart man, and he is conflating some things on purpose. Cheaper passes don't mean that skiing is cheaper, or more accessible or bringing in new skiers.

You're a capitalist dude, it's no crime, own it.

To his credit he does take responsibility for the degraded experience this year.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 8, 2022)

sure he takes responsibility for it, but then tries to deflect it by saying its not really that bad and its not bad that more people are skiing. I agree with the later, but there needs to be some control on how to handle the experience and not make getting to the mountain and riding lifts such a shit show.


----------



## gittist (Jun 8, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That's PA skiing for you. 5 or more minutes up and 1 minute down.
> 
> The lifts are old and slow there...


 More like 15 minutes up and 90 seconds down, maybe two minutes if I stop to blow my nose


----------



## drjeff (Jun 8, 2022)

The old towers and cross arms from the Sundance and Sunbrook lifts were flown out today at Mount Snow.

A little communication about this event that some would likely have liked to see in person from a safe distance, would of been nice...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 8, 2022)

They probably fired the communications person or they quit.  50/50 chance, flip a coin.

Actually the dude who runs the social media in the East actually lives near me, so he probably doesn't even know it was happening.


----------



## machski (Jun 8, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The old towers and cross arms from the Sundance and Sunbrook lifts were flown out today at Mount Snow.
> 
> A little communication about this event that some would likely have liked to see in person from a safe distance, would of been nice...


Most resorts do not announce helicopter fly dates ahead of time just to keep the public away.  Say it with me, Liability.......


----------



## eatskisleep (Jun 9, 2022)

After Rough Winter, Wildcat Mountain Focusing on Maintenance Projects
					

Wildcat Mountain in New Hampshire was probably one of the worst run Vail Resorts properties last season. They blew an insufficient amount of snow throughout the 2021-22 season, suffered maintenance…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## FBGM (Jun 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The old towers and cross arms from the Sundance and Sunbrook lifts were flown out today at Mount Snow.
> 
> A little communication about this event that some would likely have liked to see in person from a safe distance, would of been nice...


Vail does not want to flaunt construction news. The Powder/Peak/smaller other companies love to have pics and info on that. Vail does not. I was told I could not post any construction related pics during my time at Vail. Their reason was if OSHA saw something….


----------



## thebigo (Jun 9, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> After Rough Winter, Wildcat Mountain Focusing on Maintenance Projects
> 
> 
> Wildcat Mountain in New Hampshire was probably one of the worst run Vail Resorts properties last season. They blew an insufficient amount of snow throughout the 2021-22 season, suffered maintenance…
> ...


Dumbass does not know the difference between a quad and a triple.  Just when you think they cannot possibly suck more, they zoom in on the tomcat while talking about running the wildcat express.


----------



## 2Planker (Jun 9, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Dumbass does not know the difference between a quad and a triple.  Just when you think they cannot possibly suck more, they zoom in on the tomcat while talking about running the wildcat express.


This summer will really start to show the damage Vail has done to the MWV.  Both WC and AT used to do descent summer biz.  But now, they are ghost towns


----------



## drjeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Just announced on their social media feeds, next Summer, the Summit triple at Attitash will be replaced with a HSQ (permit approval pending).

A little less sucking by Vail in their NH portfolio


----------



## RH29 (Jun 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just announced on their social media feeds, next Summer, the Summit triple at Attitash will be replaced with a HSQ (permit approval pending).
> 
> A little less sucking by Vail in their NH portfolio


Very happy to hear this news. I imagine it'll be similar capacity to the Summit Triple, but at least the 15+ minute ride will be gone.


----------



## bigbob (Jun 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just announced on their social media feeds, next Summer, the Summit triple at Attitash will be replaced with a HSQ (permit approval pending).
> 
> A little less sucking by Vail in their NH portfolio


Regarding calendar year 2023 capital expenditures, Lynch said, “We remain committed to consistently reinvesting in the guest experience. In addition to this year’s significant capacity expanding investments, planning is already underway for our calendar year 2023 capital plan, and we are pleased to announce the first projects from that plan, with additional calendar year 2023 investments and upgrades to be announced in the coming quarters.  At Breckenridge, we plan to upgrade the Peak 8 base area to enhance the beginner and children’s experience and increase uphill capacity from this popular base area.  The investment plan will include a new four-person high speed 5-Chair to replace the existing two-person fixed-grip lift and will include significant improvements, including new teaching terrain and a transport carpet from the base, to make the beginner experience more accessible. At Stevens Pass, we are planning to replace the two-person fixed-grip Kehr’s Chair lift with a new four-person high speed lift, which will improve out-of-base capacity and guest experience. At Attitash, we plan to replace the three-person fixed-grip Summit Triple lift with a new four-person high speed lift, increasing uphill capacity and reducing guests’ time on the longest lift at the resort.  These lift projects are subject to regulatory approvals and are currently expected to be completed in time for the 2023/2024 North American winter season.”


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## KustyTheKlown (Jun 9, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Dumbass does not know the difference between a quad and a triple.  Just when you think they cannot possibly suck more, they zoom in on the tomcat while talking about running the wildcat express.



snowbrains v unofficial networks. battle of the fucking atrocious writers with ski blogs.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 9, 2022)

Epic pass sales up 9% so far through this same period as last year...it will be interesting to see final numbers, but it sure seems a lot of people are still buying Epic even with all their problems...


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## Smellytele (Jun 9, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Epic pass sales up 9% so far through this same period as last year...it will be interesting to see final numbers, but it sure seems a lot of people are still buying Epic even with all their problems...


A fool and his money will soon part.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2022)

Paid parking for Attitash incoming


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## hovercraft (Jun 9, 2022)

Up 9% and that’s without paid parking


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## ss20 (Jun 9, 2022)

A new HSQ at the red-headed-est of the red-headed step-children of the Vail properties.  A short new HSQ and a couple carpets at Breck.  A new fixed grip quad at another of the resorts seeminly on the Vail shitlist... Steven's Pass.  

These are great improvements, but it's not signature stuff.  It's not building the 12,000ft+ Blackcomb Gondola.  It's not the almost-as-long Park City-Canyons connection gondola.  It's not new terrain like that which was unveiled at Beaver Creek last year.  It's not the Squaw-Alpine Gondola Alterra is building.  Just curious as to why Vail chose to showcase these improvements for 2023 when none of them are the "big things" that make people excited for.  I'm not trying to piss on Vail just to piss on Vail, it's just kinda odd that THESE are the improvements they decide to unveil 4 months before they usually announce the company-wide capex improvements.  Honestly this is all the stuff you'd expect to read at the end of the press release for that big capex announcement they make in October.  They usually embark on a huge "signature" improvement each year in addition to 8-12 new lifts companywide.  Just odd.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 9, 2022)

OttawaSkier said:


> I think it's interesting they announced Attitash and Stevens Pass. Probably a ploy in the markets they failed hardest this year -
> 
> My take is that they're appeasing skiers in the areas with the worst operational issues last year, WA and NH - the choices of Attitash and Stevens Pass is too peculiar to be a coincidence.
> 
> If I had to guess, they're negotiating with manufacturers (look at the 2023 projects at Liftblog, Alterra will soon be outside of manufacturer schedules) and are going to announce in September like last year. After the season's crowding controversy, I would be surprised if Vail doesn't buy 10 lifts.



I thought too that it could be marketing to appease Steven's Pass and Attitash crowds, and that could be it.  But then throwing Breck in there... of the marquee resorts that's the best they could do?  

I don't understand your last comment about Alterra.  Are you saying they'd squeeze Vail out given Alterra has a ton of projects already in the works for 2023?  That's just what's been announced.  I can assure you the lift manufacturers know what Vail's 2023 plans are in their entirety- from initial discussions with manufacturers to opening date for a new lift it's at least an 18 month timeframe.


----------



## lobster-catcher (Jun 9, 2022)

OttawaSkier said:


> I think it's interesting they announced Attitash and Stevens Pass. Probably a ploy in the markets they failed hardest this year -
> 
> My take is that they're appeasing skiers in the areas with the worst operational issues last year, WA and NH - the choices of Attitash and Stevens Pass is too peculiar to be a coincidence.


Completely, couldn't agree more. This is entirely damage control.... this whole thing is like a telenovela with out the hot chicks.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2022)

2Planker said:


> This summer will really start to show the damage Vail has done to the MWV.  Both WC and AT used to do descent summer biz.  But now, they are ghost towns


Could you imagine owning a unit at Attitash?  Your rental business is now in the toilet.  This is not a good sign:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just announced on their social media feeds, next Summer, the Summit triple at Attitash will be replaced with a HSQ (permit approval pending).
> 
> A little less sucking by Vail in their NH portfolio


Assuming that they have enough staff to run it and make snow to open it.  Those are big assumptions after 2021-2022.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The old towers and cross arms from the Sundance and Sunbrook lifts were flown out today at Mount Snow.
> 
> A little communication about this event that some would likely have liked to see in person from a safe distance, would of been nice...


“You are not supposed to be focused on helicopters.  You are supposed to be focused on getting your EPIC Pass!”


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2022)

“You all want a fucking helicopter video?  Here’s your helicopter video!  It’s Epic!”


----------



## Mum skier (Jun 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Could you imagine owning a unit at Attitash?  Your rental business is now in the toilet.  This is not a good sign:
> 
> View attachment 54563


OK, serious question.…..Is that offer for anyone or just if you are an owner in a comparable property somewhere. I just looked at the Attitash Mountain Village resort site and did not see that sort of offer.
I’d honestly do a few days in summer for that price! Some of our outstanding 4000’ hikes would be a lot shorter drive from there.


----------



## chuckstah (Jun 9, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> OK, serious question.…..Is that offer for anyone or just if you are an owner in a comparable property somewhere. I just looked at the Attitash Mountain Village resort site and did not see that sort of offer.
> I’d honestly do a few days in summer for that price! Some of our outstanding 4000’ hikes would be a lot shorter drive from there.


It's time share BS.  Do a 90 minutes high pressure sales pitch. Nothing new. They're desperate to off load time shares, nobody wants one there.


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## Smellytele (Jun 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Could you imagine owning a unit at Attitash?  Your rental business is now in the toilet.  This is not a good sign:
> 
> View attachment 54563


May do that to ski Black and XC in Jackson on my Indy pass…


----------



## machski (Jun 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> A new HSQ at the red-headed-est of the red-headed step-children of the Vail properties.  A short new HSQ and a couple carpets at Breck.  A new fixed grip quad at another of the resorts seeminly on the Vail shitlist... Steven's Pass.
> 
> These are great improvements, but it's not signature stuff.  It's not building the 12,000ft+ Blackcomb Gondola.  It's not the almost-as-long Park City-Canyons connection gondola.  It's not new terrain like that which was unveiled at Beaver Creek last year.  It's not the Squaw-Alpine Gondola Alterra is building.  Just curious as to why Vail chose to showcase these improvements for 2023 when none of them are the "big things" that make people excited for.  I'm not trying to piss on Vail just to piss on Vail, it's just kinda odd that THESE are the improvements they decide to unveil 4 months before they usually announce the company-wide capex improvements.  Honestly this is all the stuff you'd expect to read at the end of the press release for that big capex announcement they make in October.  They usually embark on a huge "signature" improvement each year in addition to 8-12 new lifts companywide.  Just odd.


I thought the announced Stevens chair was also a HSQ, not FG.  A lot of folks were bitching when Vail proposed a quad or a six detach to the summit at Attitash in the Forest Service proposal that a Six would be overkill there and cause too much crowding.  But a detach quad has long been begged for.  So why do you think this isn't marquis news for Attitash?  Both LBO and Peaks never pulled off replacing the Summit Cripple with a HSQ.  I have to see this as a win for Attitash, though I also agree they have to make snow and guy staff lifts this coming season first.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 10, 2022)

I would say for Attitash this is a signature improvement that moves the needle.  saying otherwise is contradictory to years and in this thread pages of bitching


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## Edd (Jun 10, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I would say for Attitash this is a signature improvement that moves the needle.  saying otherwise is contradictory to years and in this thread pages of bitching


Fully agree, if:

1) They actually build it. 
2) If built, they actually run it.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 10, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I would say for Attitash this is a signature improvement that moves the needle.  saying otherwise is contradictory to years and in this thread pages of bitching



 It is big for Attitash, but a small drop in the whole portfolio.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> It's time share BS.  Do a 90 minutes high pressure sales pitch. Nothing new. They're desperate to off load time shares, nobody wants one there.


I wondered if it was a timeshare promo.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 10, 2022)

Edd said:


> Fully agree, if:
> 
> 1) They actually build it.
> 2) If built, they actually run it.



Agreed

The new Summit lift, Yankee, Kachina and Bear chairs need to run every day they're able to.   Maybe they can get away with not running Yankee midweek, but that's it.


----------



## thebigo (Jun 10, 2022)

Dont think yankee needs to run midweek with a summit high speed on that side, kachina also only necessary for race training. Four quads midweek should be sufficient at attitash. Attitash summit quad is welcome news. I may even give them another chance if they run crotched and wildcat on par with peaks and complete the sunapee expansion/upgrade.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2022)

So I am still puzzled as to how LBO/ASC was forced to dump Cranmore and WV over monopoly concerns when it owned (or would own) three resorts in NH and here we have Vail owning four and they can hold onto them.  Seems weird.  Did antitrust law change that much?


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## machski (Jun 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So I am still puzzled as to how LBO/ASC was forced to dump Cranmore and WV over monopoly concerns when it owned (or would own) three resorts in NH and here we have Vail owning four and they can hold onto them.  Seems weird.  Did antitrust law change that much?


I don't think it was just NH related with LBO/ASC.  I believe the entire New England portfolio they would own was looked at, and for reasons I'm still not clear on, were allowed to divest the smallest resorts they acquired (which happened to be in NH).


----------



## machski (Jun 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed
> 
> The new Summit lift, Yankee, Kachina and Bear chairs need to run every day they're able to.   Maybe they can get away with not running Yankee midweek, but that's it.


I would say with the new learning Quad replacing the double doubles, that and the Summit Quad should be adequate on the classic side midweek.  Bear quad is good on its own but if a second midweek, would prefer Abenaki to run.


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## Smellytele (Jun 10, 2022)

What will attitash do with the cross over of the summit lift?


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## RH29 (Jun 10, 2022)

So what are some main wishlist items for Vail in NH?

-Attitash Summit Triple replacement (planned)
-Snowmaking comparable to nearby rivals
-Wildcat having T2B skiing in December, with the Wildcat Express running daily all season
-Crotched being open daily
-No paid parking

What else?


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## Edd (Jun 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> What will attitash do with the cross over of the summit lift?


Guessing they’d keep that going. BW was permitted to do a crossover with the new gondola.


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## thebigo (Jun 10, 2022)

RH29 said:


> So what are some main wishlist items for Vail in NH?
> 
> -Attitash Summit Triple replacement (planned)
> -Snowmaking comparable to nearby rivals
> ...



I skied wildcat top to bottom in October 2018 on 100% manmade. Lynx should be the first 2K vert run in the east and Wildcat should close first Sunday of May.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 10, 2022)

RH29 said:


> So what are some main wishlist items for Vail in NH?
> 
> -Attitash Summit Triple replacement (planned)
> -Snowmaking comparable to nearby rivals
> ...



Reservation system for weekends and holidays to manage crowds would be my number 1.  

Return Wildcat to a roughly November 10th to April 20th season length with the option to extend to May 1st if the snowpack is there.  

Open the bar midweek at Wildcat

Improved F&B quality at the same price.  Vail spiked prices big time and delivers some of the most garbage food I've ever eaten.  

Better communication / snow reports.  They are so comically bad at this I almost think it's on purpose to troll people. 

Bring back Attitash summer as it was

Lastly, DO NOT buy a single other Northeast mountain.  That's actually my number one request


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## gittist (Jun 10, 2022)

"

"Lastly, DO NOT buy a single other Northeast mountain.  That's actually my number one request"

I think Vail is in negotiations to buy Powdr.....


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## Zand (Jun 10, 2022)

gittist said:


> I think Vail is in negotiations to buy Powdr.....


Not even funny.


----------



## machski (Jun 10, 2022)

Edd said:


> Guessing they’d keep that going. BW was permitted to do a crossover with the new gondola.


Yup, there is no reason the combined tower wouldn't work on a new lift.  BW Gondola has one and the Gould T-Bar at SR shares a newly installed tower on the Locke Triple as well (both Dopp installs).


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## Smellytele (Jun 10, 2022)

gittist said:


> "
> 
> "Lastly, DO NOT buy a single other Northeast mountain.  That's actually my number one request"
> 
> I think Vail is in negotiations to buy Powdr.....


Then you would have a monopoly issue


----------



## eatskisleep (Jun 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Then you would have a monopoly issue


Not that the SEC would ever do anything anyway…


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2022)

gittist said:


> I think Vail is in negotiations to buy Powdr.....


Why do you think that? 

Ultimately I think John will sell.  My thoughts were that Alterra would be more interested.


----------



## Mum skier (Jun 10, 2022)

RH29 said:


> So what are some main wishlist items for Vail in NH?
> 
> -Attitash Summit Triple replacement (planned)
> -Snowmaking comparable to nearby rivals
> ...


What happened to the Sunapee expansion plans?  Their busiest resort in NH and (for better or worse) the one most likely to be frequent by people who will spend money at their western resorts as well.

I am worried about Sunapee next season. For the other 3 resorts you could say “if all the lifts had been running the lines would not have been so bad”.  But while Sunapee had a very slow start by late January all lifts were open. Even the forgotten out left that only serves the terrain park. And even with 100% lifts running lines were bad.   So Sunapee fans don’t have the hope that the crowds will be better next year once they get all the lifts open. They were actually open last year and it was still bad.

Though I guess I renewed so I only have myself to blame.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> What happened to the Sunapee expansion plans?  Their busiest resort in NH and (for better or worse) the one most likely to be frequent by people who will spend money at their western resorts as well.
> 
> I am worried about Sunapee next season. For the other 3 resorts you could say “if all the lifts had been running the lines would not have been so bad”.  But while Sunapee had a very slow start by late January all lifts were open. Even the forgotten out left that only serves the terrain park. And even with 100% lifts running lines were bad.   So Sunapee fans don’t have the hope that the crowds will be better next year once they get all the lifts open. They were actually open last year and it was still bad.
> 
> Though I guess I renewed so I only have myself to blame.


As odd, and sad, as it sounds, based on what Vail is doing in NH it looks like the legal fights and work to get approvals may be for naught.  Has any physical work been done to get the expansion actually started?


----------



## bigbob (Jun 11, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So I am still puzzled as to how LBO/ASC was forced to dump Cranmore and WV over monopoly concerns when it owned (or would own) three resorts in NH and here we have Vail owning four and they can hold onto them.  Seems weird.  Did antitrust law change that much?


I heard someone from Rhode island filed a lawsuit.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 11, 2022)

With the issue of the traffic at Sunapee the expansion would only make it worse not better., still have to go up 103 to get there


----------



## machski (Jun 11, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> With the issue of the traffic at Sunapee the expansion would only make it worse not better., still have to go up 103 to get there


Yes, but you wouldn't have all the traffic trying to funnel up the main base access road and blocking up that crazy rotary.  Some would divert and park at the new West Bowl base lot.  That may allow traffic to at least flow on 103 rather than become the parking lot it has at times now.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 11, 2022)

machski said:


> Yes, but you wouldn't have all the traffic trying to funnel up the main base access road and blocking up that crazy rotary.  Some would divert and park at the new West Bowl base lot.  That may allow traffic to at least flow on 103 rather than become the parking lot it has at times now.


All the maps I have seen never show parking over there


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2022)

If they don't go through the expansion, Sunapee definitely needs to upgrade uphill capacity. I'd like to see the summit quad replaced with a six pack and then move that quad to replace the North Peak triple.  It would be on the short side  for a HSQ, but they need the capacity.  Weekend lines there are simply brutal.  The only escape is the Spruce Triple and that gets old fast being such short vertical.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 11, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> If they don't go through the expansion, Sunapee definitely needs to upgrade uphill capacity. I'd like to see the summit quad replaced with a six pack and then move that quad to replace the North Peak triple.  It would be on the short side  for a HSQ, but they need the capacity.  Weekend lines there are simply brutal.  The only escape is the Spruce Triple and that gets old fast being such short vertical.



I don't think the downhill capacity could support a six to the top.  Spruce as a HSQ makes sense though, plenty of capacity of off that "pod"


----------



## joshua segal (Jun 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think the downhill capacity could support a six to the top.  Spruce as a HSQ makes sense though, plenty of capacity of off that "pod"


Agree.  Sunapee needs more downhill capacity, and I don't think they have the acreage to do it


----------



## machski (Jun 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think the downhill capacity could support a six to the top.  Spruce as a HSQ makes sense though, plenty of capacity of off that "pod"


Sure it could, a Sox doesn't necessarily have that much more capacity than a HSQ.  But if the West Bowl expansion happens, current summit quad was suppose to be flipped over there and a Six put in to the Summit up the current line.  North was suppose to get upgraded to a Quad (in the Mueller days, this was thought to have been the stored FGQ they had at base of Sunbowl) and the current North Triple flipped as a second portal out of Sunbowl to top of North.  Vail has been quite mum on moving forward.

An yes ST, the West Bowl plans I saw included a new base area and a lot for maybe around 250 cars.  Not huge, but would be a slight relief valve.


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## Newpylong (Jun 11, 2022)

Attitash will be able to cut operating costs with the install of the Summit Quad. There is no way they will run the Yankee mid-week now, I wouldn't. They could even get away with not running that new FGQ if they really wanted, it would just make everyone go down Northeast Passage. As for Bear, ideally Flying Bear and Abenaki, Kachina not required mid-week, buy avain they could run just Flying Bear if they really wanted to.

Sunapee's summit quad has a ton of hours. Every year they don't relocate it means it's less likely to be reinstalled.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2022)

For some reason I always call the Abanaki chair Kachina.  Probably because it services the Kachina trail.  

The cross over from Attitash proper to Bear Base blows without Abanaki spinning.  I would typically ride the quad to the mid station and ski down Trillium or Quiver to the base.  That's why I think it should spin. Plus for the home owners at the base of Abanaki


----------



## machski (Jun 11, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Attitash will be able to cut operating costs with the install of the Summit Quad. There is no way they will run the Yankee mid-week now, I wouldn't. They could even get away with not running that new FGQ if they really wanted, it would just make everyone go down Northeast Passage. As for Bear, ideally Flying Bear and Abenaki, Kachina not required mid-week, buy avain they could run just Flying Bear if they really wanted to.
> 
> Sunapee's summit quad has a ton of hours. Every year they don't relocate it means it's less likely to be reinstalled.


This, and IIRC, the only reason why Yankee is even there is this was the path of least (no Forest Service permitting required) for LBO to string up a HSQ on Attitash proper.  It was the highest they could go and remain clear of Forest Service land while providing a HS link to Bear.


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## ss20 (Jun 12, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Sunapee's summit quad has a ton of hours. Every year they don't relocate it means it's less likely to be reinstalled.



I don't know about that.  Hunter's 1987 Poma HSQ got relocated what... 10 years ago?  I'm sure that had more hours than Sunapee's HSQ does now.  And as you know an '87 hsq is ancient stuff.  Sunapee's quad is what, 93'-95' or there about?  I feel like there's a couple other re-installs of those late 80s Poma HSQ's but it's slipping my mind.


----------



## machski (Jun 12, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't know about that.  Hunter's 1987 Poma HSQ got relocated what... 10 years ago?  I'm sure that had more hours than Sunapee's HSQ does now.  And as you know an '87 hsq is ancient stuff.  Sunapee's quad is what, 93'-95' or there about?  I feel like there's a couple other re-installs of those late 80s Poma HSQ's but it's slipping my mind.


That may be, but Vail is changing out all it's oldest models across it's portfolio.  I think Newpy is implying Vail may not want to re-use it, regardless if other operators have refused even older models.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 13, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't know about that.  Hunter's 1987 Poma HSQ got relocated what... 10 years ago?  I'm sure that had more hours than Sunapee's HSQ does now.  And as you know an '87 hsq is ancient stuff.  Sunapee's quad is what, 93'-95' or there about?  I feel like there's a couple other re-installs of those late 80s Poma HSQ's but it's slipping my mind.



Yes to what machski said. Nothing to really know about, words straight from the horses mouth...

It's actually a '98 install but outside of a few weeks in the spring it runs all season for skiing and scenic rides. Would it get located next season if given the chance? Probably... but every year that it stays where it is reduces the likelihood.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Yes to what machski said. Nothing to really know about, words straight from the horses mouth...
> 
> It's actually a '98 install but outside of a few weeks in the spring it runs all season for skiing and scenic rides. Would it get located next season if given the chance? Probably... but every year that it stays where it is reduces the likelihood.


Does Leitner-Poma have a remanufacturing program like Doppelmayr has been doing the last few years for Boyne?


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## machski (Jun 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Does Leitner-Poma have a remanufacturing program like Doppelmayr has been doing the last few years for Boyne?


I do not believe so.


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## Newpylong (Jun 13, 2022)

It depends on what the program is; I am not familiar with it. However, oftentimes when a lift if reinstalled it will go through various levels of refurbishment depending on many different factors. So it can go all the way from being reinstalled nearly as is, or depending on the age of the lift, nearly entirely refurbished/ many components replaced to come to the latest ANSI standards.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> It depends on what the program is; I am not familiar with it. However, oftentimes when a lift if reinstalled it will go through various levels of refurbishment depending on many different factors. So it can go all the way from being reinstalled nearly as is, or depending on the age of the lift, nearly entirely refurbished/ many components replaced to come to the latest ANSI standards.


The latter is what I understand Doppelmayr is doing for Boyne.


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## thebigo (Jun 13, 2022)

Fairly sure the flat top flyer was a complete refurb by Poma, helps of course that it was installed in their backyard.









						Flat Top Flyer – Powderhorn, CO
					

Visit the post for more.




					liftblog.com


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## machski (Jun 13, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Fairly sure the flat top flyer was a complete refurb by Poma, helps of course that it was installed in their backyard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They may do them, but I am unaware that they have a big, promoted program akin to Dopp's.  So far, Boyne is really the only one heavily onboard.


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## FBGM (Jun 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> View attachment 54570
> “You all want a fucking helicopter video?  Here’s your helicopter video!  It’s Epic!”


This dude just looks like he takes it deep. This is what ruining skiing looks like


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## FBGM (Jun 13, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> It depends on what the program is; I am not familiar with it. However, oftentimes when a lift if reinstalled it will go through various levels of refurbishment depending on many different factors. So it can go all the way from being reinstalled nearly as is, or depending on the age of the lift, nearly entirely refurbished/ many components replaced to come to the latest ANSI standards.


ANSI for life on all moved chairs. Oh you bought a 1982 pile oh junk double for $50k? Let’s put $400k into that to meet code. 

I’m not arguing ANSI standards. I just went through one of those classes. It’s good. Glad to see more focus on lifts. From state and federal. But to be honest, more is needed. I hate riding lifts back east. Especially old ones. All I can think about is what can happen. Sucks fun out of skiing


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## skiur (Jun 13, 2022)

FBGM said:


> ANSI for life on all moved chairs. Oh you bought a 1982 pile oh junk double for $50k? Let’s put $400k into that to meet code.
> 
> I’m not arguing ANSI standards. I just went through one of those classes. It’s good. Glad to see more focus on lifts. From state and federal. But to be honest, more is needed. I hate riding lifts back east. Especially old ones. All I can think about is what can happen. Sucks fun out of skiing


I be much more worried about getting seriously injured/killed in a car accident coming to or from the mountain than the same happening on a lift no matter how old it is.


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## machski (Jun 14, 2022)

FBGM said:


> ANSI for life on all moved chairs. Oh you bought a 1982 pile oh junk double for $50k? Let’s put $400k into that to meet code.
> 
> I’m not arguing ANSI standards. I just went through one of those classes. It’s good. Glad to see more focus on lifts. From state and federal. But to be honest, more is needed. I hate riding lifts back east. Especially old ones. All I can think about is what can happen. Sucks fun out of skiing


Funny, most of not all the Eastern States have tramway boards.  Out West, not as much.  On top of that are the insurance carriers.  And with some of the issues/failures seen over the past decade or so, have to assume it may be insurance driving standards up.


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## FBGM (Jun 14, 2022)

machski said:


> Funny, most of not all the Eastern States have tramway boards.  Out West, not as much.  On top of that are the insurance carriers.  And with some of the issues/failures seen over the past decade or so, have to assume it may be insurance driving standards up.


Yeah it’s all 3 back east. I didn’t oversee lifts on the west so unsure. We get state/tram board whatever you want to call it, ANSI code from them and insurance which sometimes is just as strict.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2022)

FBGM said:


> This dude just looks like he takes it deep. This is what ruining skiing looks like


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2022)

Amazing how Vermont had a great year, Colorado had a record year, but NH Ski Areas were DOWN 3% year-over-year.  









						Mild Weather, Late Openings Dampen New Hampshire Ski Area Visits
					

SAM Magazine—Conway, N.H., June 13, 2022—Visits to New Hampshire ski areas during the 2021-22 winter season for alpine, cross-country, and tubing overall t




					www.saminfo.com
				





SkiNH blames weather.  I wonder how much of Vail's mismanagement played a role.  I've seen numerous complaints about Wildcat, Attitash, and Crotched.  If they were running normally I'd say that there might not be a loss of skier days.


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## gittist (Jun 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Amazing how Vermont had a great year, Colorado had a record year, but NH Ski Areas were DOWN 3% year-over-year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh yes, and don't forget all of the COVID excuses.


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## Edd (Jun 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Amazing how Vermont had a great year, Colorado had a record year, but NH Ski Areas were DOWN 3% year-over-year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’d bet $ on this. Those 3 together are enough to move the needle by 3%. 


gittist said:


> oh yes, and don't forget all of the COVID excuses.


Not sure about this.


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## thebigo (Jun 14, 2022)

VT had quarantine requirements for out of state residents through nearly the end of the 21 ski season. NH never closed to new england residents. My VT days increased twenty fold this year over the previous year due to the quarantine, I get that it wasnt enforced but I just did not want to deal with it. I suspect many metro boston vacations were switched to NH during the 20/21 season, switched back to vt for the 21/22 season. Maine numbers would be interesting, I believe they closed to MA residents but not NH.


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## 2Planker (Jun 14, 2022)

thebigo said:


> VT had quarantine requirements for out of state residents through nearly the end of the 21 ski season. NH never closed to new england residents. My VT days increased twenty fold this year over the previous year due to the quarantine, I get that it wasnt enforced but I just did not want to deal with it. I suspect many metro boston vacations were switched to NH during the 20/21 season, switched back to vt for the 21/22 season. Maine numbers would be interesting, I believe they closed to MA residents but not NH.


Congratulations, You are the only person who actually obeyed the VT rule. Ha Ha


 MWV #'s were way down this past year, mostly due to folks avoiding AT and WC.  
It's the local businesses that really got hurt. Restaurants, hotels, ski shops that tend to all the racers.  All had a shitty year.

BW, Black, Shawnee, & King Pine were all up in #'s


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## deadheadskier (Jun 14, 2022)

That surprises me about Black.  Didn't they miss the entirety of Christmas week?


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## Zand (Jun 14, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> That surprises me about Black.  Didn't they miss the entirety of Christmas week?


700 people is still more than 500 people I suppose.


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## machski (Jun 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Amazing how Vermont had a great year, Colorado had a record year, but NH Ski Areas were DOWN 3% year-over-year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, of course they take the weather blame.  Don't want to piss off the new owner of 4 areas in the State (even though Vail seems to steer clear of local/state ski associations and do their own thing).  I can tell you my NH ski days would have been much higher had Crotched operated on a full schedule.  No doubt Vail's misses caused this.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 15, 2022)

While certainly Vail's operational choices at their NH resorts DID play a role in their skiers visits in that state, there is some truth to the weather component if one remembers though.  It's not like Wildcat's anemic trail counts the vast majority of the season were all attributable to lack of snowmaking, had mother nature delivered a "normal" Winter of snow fall, those trail counts would of been higher for more of the season for sure.  And once late February came around, and some storms started, it sure seamed like the cut off line between all snow and the mix/rain side of the storm generally had Crotched as well as Sunapee atleast on the less desirable side of things.

Definitely not an excuse for how they chose to operate their NH areas, and the myriad of reasons that played into how they were operated. Just have to also be realistic and add in that across Southern and even some of Central NH, this wasn't the greatest of Winters for snowfall, early snowmaking windows, and then snow retention later on


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> While certainly Vail's operational choices at their NH resorts DID play a role in their skiers visits in that state, there is some truth to the weather component if one remembers though.  It's not like Wildcat's anemic trail counts the vast majority of the season were all attributable to lack of snowmaking, had mother nature delivered a "normal" Winter of snow fall, those trail counts would of been higher for more of the season for sure.  And once late February came around, and some storms started, it sure seamed like the cut off line between all snow and the mix/rain side of the storm generally had Crotched as well as Sunapee atleast on the less desirable side of things.
> 
> Definitely not an excuse for how they chose to operate their NH areas, and the myriad of reasons that played into how they were operated. Just have to also be realistic and add in that across Southern and even some of Central NH, this wasn't the greatest of Winters for snowfall, early snowmaking windows, and then snow retention later on



Bullshit

Cannon, Pats, Gunstock and I'm sure many others met or exceeded prior season's snowmaking output.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff needs to take off his rosy vail tinted sun-glasses and stop drinking the "Vail isn't really that bad" kool-aid.

Sure weather can be an issue that impacts skier visits, but most of the properly run resorts in the northeast seem to have been able to overcome this and didn't let it hurt their skier visit totals.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

cdskier said:


> drjeff needs to take off his rosy vail tinted sun-glasses and stop drinking the "Vail isn't really that bad" kool-aid.
> 
> Sure weather can be an issue that impacts skier visits, but most of the properly run resorts in the northeast seem to have been able to overcome this and didn't let it hurt their skier visit totals.


It's clear that Mr. Katz has highjacked Dr Jeff's account.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Bullshit
> 
> Cannon, Pats, Gunstock and I'm sure many others met or exceeded prior season's snowmaking output.



Care to read the full bit that I posted DHS? Or are you just reading the 1st line or 2?

100% stated that Vail's operational decisions affected their NH properties.  No questions at all about that.

Mother nature though didn't exactly help with a slow, warm start, then a bunch of storms later on that especially for Crotched and Sunapee late season had them on the warm side of things.

Also, when I was at Attitash and Wildcat in early March, a time of year when pretty much every trail, regardless of whether or not it has snowmaking pipe on it, should of been open due to a"normal" season of accumulated snowfall, they weren't. That part has abslutely nothing to do with Vail operational choices that they made for their NH properties in particular. That's all mother nature.

Vail, for various reasons, certainly didn't operate their NH resorts as they could, or as they had been under previous owners. No doubt about that and it's all on them.  Mother Nature, whom does factor into the skiing and riding for New England for sure, had a below average season for much of Central New Enlgand and about all of Southern New England last season. 

Northen New Enlgand eventually got into the snow positive side of storms late Feb/Early March and finished up decent late season. Southern New England didn't fair as well. Vail's operational choices with far below average snowmaking efforts in NH, definitely made things worse. That part is all on them, and if one tries to OBJECTIVELY look at things, and take the emotions out of it, I am sure that they will see that what I said isn't all Vail cheerleading


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> While certainly Vail's operational choices at their NH resorts DID play a role in their skiers visits in that state, there is some truth to the weather component if one remembers though.  It's not like Wildcat's anemic trail counts the vast majority of the season were all attributable to lack of snowmaking, had mother nature delivered a "normal" Winter of snow fall, those trail counts would of been higher for more of the season for sure.  And once late February came around, and some storms started, it sure seamed like the cut off line between all snow and the mix/rain side of the storm generally had Crotched as well as Sunapee atleast on the less desirable side of things.
> 
> Definitely not an excuse for how they chose to operate their NH areas, and the myriad of reasons that played into how they were operated. Just have to also be realistic and add in that across Southern and even some of Central NH, this wasn't the greatest of Winters for snowfall, early snowmaking windows, and then snow retention later on



We were skiing 100% snowmaking terrain at Ragged by the third week in January. Similar snowmaking capacity as Wildcat, but huge geographical disadvantage.

Biggest difference? Long term management (that knows their ass from their elbow) in place and proper staffing levels.

It is common practice to blame incompetence and/or mis-management on weather in the skiing industry. Believe me, I was sadly personally guilty of playing the game.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> We were skiing 100% snowmaking terrain at Ragged by the third week in January. Similar snowmaking capacity as Wildcat, but huge geographical disadvantage.
> 
> Biggest difference? Long term management (that knows their ass from their elbow) in place and proper staffing levels.
> 
> It is common practice to blame incompetence and/or mis-management on weather in the skiing industry. Believe me, I was sadly personally guilty of playing the game.


I, too, read the weather line in the SkiNH Press Release a diplomatic way to save face for a big constituent of Ski NH.  I think privately those in the know would admit that Vail's issues played a role.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2022)

Jeff,

Yes I did read the rest.  I also still think being a Vail apologist and excuse maker for their NH properties is a bunch of bullshit.  

Again, the competition did not have these issues and didn't make the weather excuses you and Vail are trying to make.  No one wants to hear that from the wealthiest ski company in the world. 

It's okay.  You really can say Vail sucks.  They won't impeach you as President of the Mt Snow fan club. 

Vail does shitty things sometimes. You know like billing the family of the deceased Zipline worker for function space use for his memorial.  

It's okay to call it like it is

There's never just a straight apology from Vail for poor performance and sometimes unethical business practices.  There's always a "yeah but." They should stop that.  So, should you.  It makes the admission of mistake look disingenuous


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Vail does shitty things sometimes. You know like billing the family of the deceased Zipline worker for function space use for his memorial.


Wait, what?!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Wait, what?!



Yes, true, according to friends in town who are friends of the family of the deceased.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> We were skiing 100% snowmaking terrain at Ragged by the third week in January. Similar snowmaking capacity as Wildcat, but huge geographical disadvantage.
> 
> Biggest difference? Long term management (that knows their ass from their elbow) in place and proper staffing levels.
> 
> It is common practice to blame incompetence and/or mis-management on weather in the skiing industry. Believe me, I was sadly personally guilty of playing the game.



Just curious how the glade situation at Ragged was this past season?

I know on his recent Storm Skiing Podcast interview, which sounds like Stuart recorded with Erik after the season was over, Erik mentioned that it hadn't been the best season for the glades at Ragged because of them often being slightly on the warm side of storm tracks.

And again, Vail certainly dropped the ball with their operational choices for the NH resorts this past season. Heck, even Rob Katz owned that in his recent speech at I believe it was the National NSAA meeting (might of been a different industry meeting though), that Vail made some poor choices in how they operated many of their resorts.  Thats not in dispute at all. Mother Nature could of been kinder to many Central and Southern New England Resorts this past season.

Heck, I know in my own yard in Northern CT, we had multiple large storms (1 to even a 2 footer) that roughly a week later, if not sooner, had all melted away due to warm temps, and often rain just a few days after the snow fell


----------



## Edd (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just curious how the glade situation at Ragged was this past season?


Not a Ragged expert but I went late January and skied several glades.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes, true, according to friends in town who are friends of the family of the deceased.


Wow, just wow.


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Just curious how the glade situation at Ragged was this past season?
> 
> I know on his recent Storm Skiing Podcast interview, which sounds like Stuart recorded with Erik after the season was over, Erik mentioned that it hadn't been the best season for the glades at Ragged because of them often being slightly on the warm side of storm tracks.
> 
> ...


They were open on/off, never great. We missed many of the big storms.

I seem to recall him passing the buck quite squarely on external factors in that interview, but that was just my recollection.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> They were open on/off, never great. We missed many of the big storms.
> 
> I seem to recall him passing the buck quite squarely on external factors in that interview, but that was just my recollection.



To me it sounded like he was very proud of the effort that his snowmakers and groomers, and entire ops team did this past season.  Saying that his crew layed down a thick base and moved on to another trail, and that late season, when some PSIA (If I recall correctly) big whigs showed up, that they said that it was the best snow surface that they had skied on this season.  Didn't sound at all like he was passing the buck.  Just a mix of prasing his crew, as well as acknowledging that Mother Nature often had Ragged a little South of the all snow track for some storms this past season.

And that is simply my point.  Regardless of how good or poorly (in Vail Resorts case in NH this past season) the snowmakers and grromers were allowed to perform by their management, Mother Nature wasn't always very generous in the types of storms that she gave to some of Central and most all of Southern New Enlgand many times this past season.  Had Mother Nature been more generous in those areas, yes, without a doubt the operational short comings that Vail higher up management created and allowed to happen at their NH properties still would of been an issue, even if Mother Nature had helped boost the trail counts both earlier in the season and then kept them higher throughout the season


----------



## skiur (Jun 15, 2022)

In my opinion we had a pretty typical winter in the northeast.  When your in the northeast it's bullshit for a ski resort to blame the weather.  They have to be prepared for a typical winter like we had which most resorts outside of Vail were.


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## ss20 (Jun 15, 2022)

skiur said:


> In my opinion we had a pretty typical winter in the northeast.  When your in the northeast it's bullshit for a ski resort to blame the weather.  They have to be prepared for a typical winter like we had which most resorts outside of Vail were.



I am honored to own the definitive Killington book- Killington: A Story of Mountains and Men.  One of my favorite passages in the book is that entering one of the seasons in the mid-80s, Preston Smith told his mountain ops group that the new philosophy they would adhere to was that they would no longer wait to make snow if winter failed to cooperate, they'd make snow _expecting _there to be little natural snow.  And since then every ski area in the country has followed suit.  

It's really like Wildcat turned back the clock 40 years.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2022)

skiur said:


> In my opinion we had a pretty typical winter in the northeast.  When your in the northeast it's bullshit for a ski resort to blame the weather.  They have to be prepared for a typical winter like we had which most resorts outside of Vail were.



Exactly

This isn't Colorado or even Vermont. It's New Hampshire we are talking about.  There isn't a single ski area in the state that averages 200" of snow a year; not even Wildcat. They say they do, but the reality is it's probably closer to 160 and the very best season in the past ten was 218".  Most of these places average 120 or less.  

There is zero point in trying to put some of the blame on Mother Nature in New Hampshire.  It's never great.   

No one else was making excuses.  Vail constantly does.


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## machski (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> To me it sounded like he was very proud of the effort that his snowmakers and groomers, and entire ops team did this past season.  Saying that his crew layed down a thick base and moved on to another trail, and that late season, when some PSIA (If I recall correctly) big whigs showed up, that they said that it was the best snow surface that they had skied on this season.  Didn't sound at all like he was passing the buck.  Just a mix of prasing his crew, as well as acknowledging that Mother Nature often had Ragged a little South of the all snow track for some storms this past season.
> 
> And that is simply my point.  Regardless of how good or poorly (in Vail Resorts case in NH this past season) the snowmakers and grromers were allowed to perform by their management, Mother Nature wasn't always very generous in the types of storms that she gave to some of Central and most all of Southern New Enlgand many times this past season.  Had Mother Nature been more generous in those areas, yes, without a doubt the operational short comings that Vail higher up management created and allowed to happen at their NH properties still would of been an issue, even if Mother Nature had helped boost the trail counts both earlier in the season and then kept them higher throughout the season


Dr Jeff, curious what your take is on their Crotched operations last year.  I would say in that case in particular we can see the damage Vail did to total NH skier days.  As in, they were shut two days a week (outside of Holidays) and most nights.  So, how many skier days did this cost NH?  How many Epic pass holders went to elsewhere or didn't ski because of their inept operations at Crotched?  It's 50 minutes to my house and because of the truncated ops, I didn't ski nearly as often as I had planned there.  The lack of night skiing nights really killed my plans and total skier days myself in NH.


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## drjeff (Jun 15, 2022)

machski said:


> Dr Jeff, curious what your take is on their Crotched operations last year.  I would say in that case in particular we can see the damage Vail did to total NH skier days.  As in, they were shut two days a week (outside of Holidays) and most nights.  So, how many skier days did this cost NH?  How many Epic pass holders went to elsewhere or didn't ski because of their inept operations at Crotched?  It's 50 minutes to my house and because of the truncated ops, I didn't ski nearly as often as I had planned there.  The lack of night skiing nights really killed my plans and total skier days myself in NH.


Didn't hit Crotched this past year.  Was awful what Vail numerous operational choices that they made prior to last season, and often carrying over from the season before, did there. Just complete lack of reality by the various higher ups, often based not in the Northeast, but out in CO, with far too many managerial important sounding titles linked to their names did to Crotched, and frankly all of their NH properties last season (One could say that they attempted to run Sunapee closer to normal, but failed in crowd management and snowmaking efforts until they brought crews in from some of the VT areas mid season to try and put on band aid on a wound that needed a full tournaquit that they created. No clue on how this affected Epic passholders going elsewhere or not going. 

Time will tell if the seeming change on operational philosphy they talked about towards the end of this past season for next season, and both Rob Katz's and Kirsten Lynch's owning of the problems their operational decsions created, will make a dramatic difference this coming season or not.

If early pass sales are ahead of this time last year, I would hope that they get things right for crowd management and "normal" operations.

And while Rob Katz is certainly a polarizing figure in the ski industry, probably right up there with Les Otten, a couple points he did make recently that are true, is that the majority of the days of the season, a ski area operates far below its capacity, as well as the fact that even though this past season had the highest skier vists ever recorded, that number has basically been flat for 20 years, and that's not a sign of a growing industry, which is what just about every ski area wants. And that going froward those 2 issues (making better use of existing capacity more days of the season and attracting new folks into the sport (this is where he thinks the DEI push now offers great potential on many fronts.

I hope his take on increase daily existing operating capacity utilization isn't what his take on how Crotched, and some other of the former Peak properties was last season, which was to decrease the opearung days per week and hours per day in some cases. That would be a huge fail


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## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> No one else was making excuses.  Vail constantly does.


Well, in this case it was SkiNH saving face for Vail.  SkiNH reported a decrease in skier days and made the connection to the weather.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2022)

machski said:


> Dr Jeff, curious what your take is on their Crotched operations last year.  I would say in that case in particular we can see the damage Vail did to total NH skier days.  As in, they were shut two days a week (outside of Holidays) and most nights.  So, how many skier days did this cost NH?  How many Epic pass holders went to elsewhere or didn't ski because of their inept operations at Crotched?  It's 50 minutes to my house and because of the truncated ops, I didn't ski nearly as often as I had planned there.  The lack of night skiing nights really killed my plans and total skier days myself in NH.


If I were an Epic Passholder that was a Crotched Local THIS would piss me off.  IIRC Vail made this decision WELL into ski season and provided folks little to no notice.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2022)

I'm not sure why anyone would trust a word Katz says.  It's all lip service to pump up shareholders.


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## Edd (Jun 15, 2022)

The performance of Wildcat, specifically, was outrageously bad this year. It was one notch above just closing the fucking mountain permanently. That the GM still has a job indicates that he just wasn’t given proper capital to run the mountain I guess, I don’t know. Is that why the same GM still has a job? 

They couldn’t run a single bar at any point during the season? Gunstock ran two on weekdays.


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## snoseek (Jun 15, 2022)

Edd said:


> The performance of Wildcat, specifically, was outrageously bad this year. It was one notch above just closing the fucking mountain permanently. That the GM still has a job indicates that he just wasn’t given proper capital to run the mountain I guess, I don’t know. Is that why the same GM still has a job?
> 
> They couldn’t run a single bar at any point during the season? Gunstock ran two on weekdays.


Wait 2? Where's the second?


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## Edd (Jun 15, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wait 2? Where's the second?


Summit of the HSQ. Bare bones, but great views inside or out, of the lake. Every time I went there I stewed over why I can’t go to Wildcat’s pub, my favorite ski bar ever. On the weekends, Gunstock had three bars open, with the third floor of the base lodge. Zero at Wildcat. Fuck Vail, I hope they fail as a company.


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## snoseek (Jun 15, 2022)

Edd said:


> Summit of the HSQ. Bare bones, but great views inside or out, of the lake. Every time I went there I stewed over why I can’t go to Wildcat’s pub, my favorite ski bar ever. On the weekends, Gunstock had three bars open, with the third floor of the base lodge. Zero at Wildcat. Fuck Vail, I hope they fail as a company.


Gunstock seems so well run these days.


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## Newpylong (Jun 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> To me it sounded like he was very proud of the effort that his snowmakers and groomers, and entire ops team did this past season.  Saying that his crew layed down a thick base and moved on to another trail, and that late season, when some PSIA (If I recall correctly) big whigs showed up, that they said that it was the best snow surface that they had skied on this season.  Didn't sound at all like he was passing the buck.  Just a mix of prasing his crew, as well as acknowledging that Mother Nature often had Ragged a little South of the all snow track for some storms this past season.
> 
> And that is simply my point.  Regardless of how good or poorly (in Vail Resorts case in NH this past season) the snowmakers and grromers were allowed to perform by their management, Mother Nature wasn't always very generous in the types of storms that she gave to some of Central and most all of Southern New Enlgand many times this past season.  Had Mother Nature been more generous in those areas, yes, without a doubt the operational short comings that Vail higher up management created and allowed to happen at their NH properties still would of been an issue, even if Mother Nature had helped boost the trail counts both earlier in the season and then kept them higher throughout the season



I think you misunderstood or I was not clear. I was referring to Katz passing the buck, not Barnes. What would Barnes have to pass the buck on? As always Ragged pounded the shit out of the place and provided a good product year long, dealing with the same weather and labor market that the Vail Resorts in NH had to contend with.


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## thebigo (Jun 15, 2022)

Just took a look through my gallery. First day in the trees was jan 17 at ragged, last ragged day in the trees was March 5 with a bunch of good days in between. Jan 29 and Feb 26 standout as excellent tree days. A very typical season for southern NH.

The idea that this was a lousy weather season in NH is pure BS. The season was average to slightly above average, with a great run from MLK through late Feb. April was all time.


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## ss20 (Jun 16, 2022)

The town of Park City seems to have won!









						Park City Lift Projects Blocked
					

The Park City Planning Commission voted 3-1 tonight to grant an appeal of two approved lift projects at Park City Mountain. First announced in September 2021, the new Eagle six pack would have feat…




					liftblog.com
				






> The Park City Planning Commission voted 3-1 tonight to grant an appeal of two approved lift projects at Park City Mountain. First announced in September 2021, the new Eagle six pack would have featured a mid-unloading station and a new Silverlode lift would have become the first eight place lift constructed by Vail Resorts. Both detachables were set to be built by Doppelmayr and Silverlode was slated to be a D-Line model. The projects were part of the Epic Lift Upgrade, a 21 lift initiative across Vail Resorts.




Love to see Vail not get their way but this is a large can of worms that's being opened... hopefully the NIMBY crowd actually lets them put in more lifts and upgrade the resort once Vail has resolved the existing issues with the town (parking, traffic, employee housing, etc).


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## cdskier (Jun 16, 2022)

I don't know enough about the specifics of this Park City issue itself and agree about some mixed feelings from a general perspective. I like Vail not getting their way all the time. Perhaps it will teach them that they need to be better community partners. But at the same time, it isn't good that a small handful of people (seemingly) can stop a lift replacement project. Whether the concerns are genuinely justified or not I don't know in this specific case.


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## ss20 (Jun 16, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I don't know enough about the specifics of this Park City issue itself and agree about some mixed feelings from a general perspective. I like Vail not getting their way all the time. Perhaps it will teach them that they need to be better community partners. But at the same time, it isn't good that a small handful of people (seemingly) can stop a lift replacement project. Whether the concerns are genuinely justified or not I don't know in this specific case.



1000% agree.  Like you said, a few people should not be able to stop a lift project on their own.  Kinda like the guy who lives near Stowe who does not want them building the 6 pack cites the buzzing power lines near his house as a "concern".

But like Stowe, the town of Park City wants Vail to at least help resolve the issues that come when your skier visits are significantly higher than pre-Vail days and are impacting the locals negatively on a daily basis.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2022)

Uh oh…..









						Park City Lift Projects Blocked
					

The Park City Planning Commission voted 3-1 tonight to grant an appeal of two approved lift projects at Park City Mountain. First announced in September 2021, the new Eagle six pack would have feat…




					liftblog.com


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## drjeff (Jun 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Uh oh…..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't most boards of this type have an odd number of members on them to prevent the possibility of a tie vote? (Not that this was atie vote)  Seems weird to me to have a voting board with an even number. Heck I know that some boards that I have sat on over the years would defer any voting business if we had an even number of members present and had met the threshold for a quorum to conduct official busness. 

And regardless of how one feels about Vail resorts, the growing trend to stifle ski area upgrades, should really raise concern among us skiing/riding enthusiasts, especially given how many resorts do have aging infrastucture, and the fact that it does seem like the sport is trying to grow a bit.  Most new expansions seeme to ultimately be a permitting issue with the US Forest service, whereas many a lift replacement seems to have more oversight by local planning and zoning boards.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Don't most boards of this type have an odd number of members on them to prevent the possibility of a tie vote? (Not that this was atie vote)  Seems weird to me to have a voting board with an even number. Heck I know that some boards that I have sat on over the years would defer any voting business if we had an even number of members present and had met the threshold for a quorum to conduct official busness.
> 
> And regardless of how one feels about Vail resorts, the growing trend to stifle ski area upgrades, should really raise concern among us skiing/riding enthusiasts, especially given how many resorts do have aging infrastucture, and the fact that it does seem like the sport is trying to grow a bit.  Most new expansions seeme to ultimately be a permitting issue with the US Forest service, whereas many a lift replacement seems to have more oversight by local planning and zoning boards.


There are still some details to come out of this.  I believe that PCMR and PC had an agreement regarding capacity and parking and this went against it.  Anyone who has been to Park City lately knows that traffic, and parking, have been horrendous.


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## drjeff (Jun 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> There are still some details to come out of this.  I believe that PCMR and PC had an agreement regarding capacity and parking and this went against it.  Anyone who has been to Park City lately knows that traffic, and parking, have been horrendous.


Isn't the reality that short of building a multi story parking garage on the existing park lot near the base of Park City (and I am gussing the NIMBY crowd would loathe that for view reasons at a minimum), that unless you start talking extensive off site parking and shuttle use or sometime of tranfer lift from a non immediate base area parking lot to the lifts (such as what they have on the Canyons side), that there really isn't much that can be done without DRASTIC changes.

And if I am not mistaken based on what I read online recently and recollection from my past Utah ski trips, isn't parking an issue with most of the ski resorts in the greater SLC area?  And yet many potential solutions to the parking problems are often met with NIMBY resistance?  The balance between the financial benefts that the ski resort tourism brings so many communities and the desire of many locals to seemingly want to have their own private club like setting, but not have to pay big $$ for that type of experience, really seems to be at a crossroads. And how it all plays out will be interesting to see in the coming years.....


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## 2Planker (Jun 16, 2022)

Edd said:


> The performance of Wildcat, specifically, was outrageously bad this year. It was one notch above just closing the fucking mountain permanently. That the GM still has a job indicates that he just wasn’t given proper capital to run the mountain I guess, I don’t know. Is that why the same GM still has a job?
> 
> They couldn’t run a single bar at any point during the season? Gunstock ran two on weekdays.


Fact - Saw the WC GM  interviewing at 2 places.  
The writing must be on the wall...


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 16, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Don't most boards of this type have an odd number of members on them to prevent the possibility of a tie vote? (Not that this was atie vote)  Seems weird to me to have a voting board with an even number. Heck I know that some boards that I have sat on over the years would defer any voting business if we had an even number of members present and had met the threshold for a quorum to conduct official busness.


There are actually 6 - 1 abstained and 1 was absent.


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## drjeff (Jun 16, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> There are actually 6 - 1 abstained and 1 was absent.



Thanks for the info.  The even number I still find a interesting thing.

I wonder if the abstention had a conflict of interest or just didn't want to go on record fo fear that folks would get on their case about how they voted?  Since it's not like with 1 member of the board not present at that meeting the abstention wouldn't of made a difference in the outcome at all


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Isn't the reality that short of building a multi story parking garage on the existing park lot near the base of Park City (and I am gussing the NIMBY crowd would loathe that for view reasons at a minimum), that unless you start talking extensive off site parking and shuttle use or sometime of tranfer lift from a non immediate base area parking lot to the lifts (such as what they have on the Canyons side), that there really isn't much that can be done without DRASTIC changes.


Newsflash:  they already have off-site parking and shuttle services.  Those are all but maxed out.  Just like IKON, EPIC leads to crowding.  That's the business model.  PCMR can't handle anymore.




drjeff said:


> And if I am not mistaken based on what I read online recently and recollection from my past Utah ski trips, isn't parking an issue with most of the ski resorts in the greater SLC area?


In the last four years with EPIC, IKON, and population growth, yes.


drjeff said:


> And yet many potential solutions to the parking problems are often met with NIMBY resistance?


No.  Not yet at least.  There have been no solutions.  Only Alterra and Vail denying that there is a problem.

That said, things are slowly and quietly changing.  The tune is now changing.  Alterra is charging for parking at Solitude and limiting Deer Valley (no more IKON base).  Vail is charging for parking at PCMR starting this fall.  The opposition is not NIMBY as much as it is people angry about now paying for parking.

We are still awaiting UDOT's decision on LCC. 

As to this case, I think merely labeling this as a NIMBY thing is not telling the whole story.  Again, PCMR apparently had a legal agreement with the City for many years that it would not expand capacity without addressing parking.  The issue is if increasing lift capacity on *existing lifts *requires adding parking.  


drjeff said:


> The balance between the financial benefts that the ski resort tourism brings so many communities and the desire of many locals to seemingly want to have their own private club like setting, but not have to pay big $$ for that type of experience, really seems to be at a crossroads. And how it all plays out will be interesting to see in the coming years.....


Well, maybe in some places.  But in a lot of places you are seeing lots of haves and lots of have nots.  Tourism jobs are not well-paying.  Is it better than nothing?  Sure. 

What you said used to be true, but with the business model change to a discount multi-mountain season pass product, your argument is no longer really the case.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2022)

More information.  









						Park City Mountain Lift Upgrades Blocked
					

SAM Magazine—Park City, Utah, June 16, 2022—The Park City Planning Commission granted an appeal of a previous decision to approve two Park City Mountain (P




					www.saminfo.com


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## machski (Jun 17, 2022)

This move could be anti-Vail by the commission (and a warning shot to Alterra as well) but IMHO sets an ominous precedent in terms of municipal boards and resort investments.  We are not talking about new terrain with these halted projects, simply lift replacements.  Yes, they are upgrades in the case of Silverload with a bit more capacity but the other project replaces two existing lifts with a single lift (yes, again a bit of an overall caacity increase).  Between the Cottonwood issues and seeming roadblocks by various groups towards trying to improve access up those and now this, I would say destination skiers are going to start taking notice.  Trailboss, maybe you will see reduced visitation and crowding out there soon.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 17, 2022)

I'm not sure I agree with the phrase "ominous precedent'.  To be honest, I'm quite surprised there isn't more Nimbyism in resort areas.  I think we visitors to these places overvalue the cost / benefit of tourism to local economies / people.

Outside of a handful of management positions, professional services jobs and small business owners, very few workers in these areas have good jobs and reap much of a financial reward from the local ski area, beach resort, casino etc.  The development in tourist areas has completely pushed a huge percentage of the working class out of town.   It's all second home owners and retirees now.  Some remote working families too, but it's limited.

I have several friends who are from multigenerational families in Stowe who carry massive resentment towards the ski area.  They have been completely priced out of town and don't even like to spend any time in town anymore because of all the traffic.  

Tourism really is one of the more exploitive industries.  So I don't really have a problem with the town of Park City essentially capping efforts by Vail to drive more business until they invest heavily in things that really benefit the town first and foremost.


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## cdskier (Jun 17, 2022)

machski said:


> This move could be anti-Vail by the commission (and a warning shot to Alterra as well) but IMHO sets an ominous precedent in terms of municipal boards and resort investments.  We are not talking about new terrain with these halted projects, simply lift replacements.  Yes, they are upgrades in the case of Silverload with a bit more capacity but the other project replaces two existing lifts with a single lift (yes, again a bit of an overall caacity increase).  Between the Cottonwood issues and seeming roadblocks by various groups towards trying to improve access up those and now this, I would say destination skiers are going to start taking notice.  Trailboss, maybe you will see reduced visitation and crowding out there soon.



One thing to add though...how many resorts other than Park City have actual agreements with towns regarding caps and limits on their comfortable carrying capacity? That agreement is what appears to be the major sticking point here where the people appealing were arguing they were not abiding by that agreement. If it wasn't for that agreement, I don't know that the board would have really had any actual grounds to stop this particular project.


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## thebigo (Jun 17, 2022)

Dont know if this has been mentioned here but the crystal pass with parking and Ikon is $4099 plus tax. Good organizations create value and charge for it.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 17, 2022)

I'm all for paying a premium price for a premium product, but I have my limits.  I couldn't see myself paying that much for one pass plus parking.   
Western Washington seems to need more ski areas in a big way.


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## SenorQuesadilla (Jun 17, 2022)

Looks to me like they're essentially charging 2k for premier parking. You can get an unlimited no blackout crystal pass which includes parking for $1,799 or for $300 more you can include a full Ikon with it.

This is, however, the only way to avoid having to make parking reservations on weekends and holidays.


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## machski (Jun 17, 2022)

cdskier said:


> One thing to add though...how many resorts other than Park City have actual agreements with towns regarding caps and limits on their comfortable carrying capacity? That agreement is what appears to be the major sticking point here where the people appealing were arguing they were not abiding by that agreement. If it wasn't for that agreement, I don't know that the board would have really had any actual grounds to stop this particular project.


True.  But that is part of this rub, isn't it?  The board had previously APPROVED Vail's lift upgrades even with that agreement in place.  4 individuals were able to basically swing the board to reconsider and then yank their previous approval.  Now, for all I know, the board now and the board that approved had been changed out to some extent in elections.  Still, Vail is falling prey to multiple municipalities granting different projects in different regions the approval and then yanking it just prior to shovels meeting dirt.  Sorry if I see a bad precedent (s) forming here.

DHS, I'm curious how your Stowe friends saw or felt about the resort back in the single chair days.  How about when the original Forerunner went in during that era of the resort.  Yes, it stinks that resort towns continue to get more and more expensive.  But then we all want the sport to grow in popularity.  The reality is if wealthy folks enjoy the sport, they have the means to buy into second, third, etc homes to enjoy it more.  It certainly isn't directly the resort company's fault if they buy single family homes outside of the resort's immediate offerings.  I would actually say it is the town governance's fault for not tightening zoning ordinances, etc as the area develops.  Maybe that's just me.


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## cdskier (Jun 17, 2022)

machski said:


> True.  But that is part of this rub, isn't it?  The board had previously APPROVED Vail's lift upgrades even with that agreement in place.  4 individuals were able to basically swing the board to reconsider and then yank their previous approval.  Now, for all I know, the board now and the board that approved had been changed out to some extent in elections.  Still, Vail is falling prey to multiple municipalities granting different projects in different regions the approval and then yanking it just prior to shovels meeting dirt.  Sorry if I see a bad precedent (s) forming here.


Reading the articles, this isn't my interpretation of what happened. The Planning Commission board did not approve (or need to approve) the project. That was handled by city officials. The board only became involved because there was an appeal saying the city officials shouldn't have approved it in the first place because they didn't properly validate that the project was in line with the existing agreement on capacity limits. 

I don't really see this as a "precedent". I think this is a unique situation due to that agreement that puts caps on changes that can be made to the capacity of the resort at PC. It is an odd agreement for sure...but it was there when Vail took over PC. If Vail thinks the upgraded lifts still are in line with the terms of that agreement, then they should ultimately prevail and get this project approved as they fight this.

And if we want to look at other projects to see whether this is really a trend or not, look at the new chair at Stowe. Locals TRIED to stop it (which was stupid), but their claims were appropriately dismissed.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 17, 2022)

machski said:


> True.  But that is part of this rub, isn't it?  The board had previously APPROVED Vail's lift upgrades even with that agreement in place.  4 individuals were able to basically swing the board to reconsider and then yank their previous approval.  Now, for all I know, the board now and the board that approved had been changed out to some extent in elections.  Still, Vail is falling prey to multiple municipalities granting different projects in different regions the approval and then yanking it just prior to shovels meeting dirt.  Sorry if I see a bad precedent (s) forming here.
> 
> DHS, I'm curious how your Stowe friends saw or felt about the resort back in the single chair days.  How about when the original Forerunner went in during that era of the resort.  Yes, it stinks that resort towns continue to get more and more expensive.  But then we all want the sport to grow in popularity.  The reality is if wealthy folks enjoy the sport, they have the means to buy into second, third, etc homes to enjoy it more.  It certainly isn't directly the resort company's fault if they buy single family homes outside of the resort's immediate offerings.  I would actually say it is the town governance's fault for not tightening zoning ordinances, etc as the area develops.  Maybe that's just me.



I haven't spoken with them too much about that far back, but it's really the last 20 years that's been the problem.  I moved to Stowe in 95 and lived there on and off for a decade.   Back then there still was some affordable housing in town.  There was still very affordable housing in Waterbury or Morrisville.  There were lots of long time locals with kids in the schools etc.   Things changed big time after 9/11 and accelerated more after the Spruce development started.    9/11 saw a moderate influx of NYC executives move to town.  The Saabs and Subarus around town were replaced with Range Rovers.  Then with Spruce, more and more uber expensive second homes and tear downs of existing affordable homes as there was only so many units being built up at the mountain.

My best friend coaches lacrosse for the high school these days.  He says almost none of his players are from "native" families.  They're all wealthy imports.  He himself owns a restaurant in town and can't afford to live there.  He had to buy out in Elmore.   He had three siblings go through the town school system and all of them left the area because there's just such limited professional opportunity in the area for how expensive it is.  The earnings vs cost of living math doesn't work. 

Is it all attributed to the mountain?  No, but a lot of it is.  So, I really think these large developers in tourist towns need to be treated like developers in say Boston.  You want to add a new skyscraper with luxury condos?  Well, you have to allocate a certain percentage of the development to workforce housing.   The ski areas should have to do the same.  Vail should have to massively invest in employee housing prior to product investments designed to grow traffic even more.


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## Smellytele (Jun 17, 2022)

I don’t want the sport to grow. Like it where it is. Growing actually shuts out the little guys or so it seems. I guess what do you mean by growing. Does growing mean places getting bigger and consolidating or does it mean more people skiing?


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## machski (Jun 17, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I haven't spoken with them too much about that far back, but it's really the last 20 years that's been the problem.  I moved to Stowe in 95 and lived there on and off for a decade.   Back then there still was some affordable housing in town.  There was still very affordable housing in Waterbury or Morrisville.  There were lots of long time locals with kids in the schools etc.   Things changed big time after 9/11 and accelerated more after the Spruce development started.    9/11 saw a moderate influx of NYC executives move to town.  The Saabs and Subarus around town were replaced with Range Rovers.  Then with Spruce, more and more uber expensive second homes and tear downs of existing affordable homes as there was only so many units being built up at the mountain.
> 
> My best friend coaches lacrosse for the high school these days.  He says almost none of his players are from "native" families.  They're all wealthy imports.  He himself owns a restaurant in town and can't afford to live there.  He had to buy out in Elmore.   He had three siblings go through the town school system and all of them left the area because there's just such limited professional opportunity in the area for how expensive it is.  The earnings vs cost of living math doesn't work.
> 
> Is it all attributed to the mountain?  No, but a lot of it is.  So, I really think these large developers in tourist towns need to be treated like developers in say Boston.  You want to add a new skyscraper with luxury condos?  Well, you have to allocate a certain percentage of the development to workforce housing.   The ski areas should have to do the same.  Vail should have to massively invest in employee housing prior to product investments designed to grow traffic even more.


Agree, but it is the communities and governance that have to push those types of regs and then enforce them.  Stowe is unique in that Vail does not control the lodging situation, that is still AIG.  So who pays for what part of employee housing?  Because I'd that is based off say Spruce Village, well AIG need stop pony up, not Vail in that case.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 17, 2022)

Hmmm, the new Eagle would replace 2 triples.  Since that would be similar capacity, maybe it should have been approved.  Not sure exactly how they calculate though, vert and length might be involved.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 17, 2022)

cdskier said:


> One thing to add though...how many resorts other than Park City have actual agreements with towns regarding caps and limits on their comfortable carrying capacity? That agreement is what appears to be the major sticking point here where the people appealing were arguing they were not abiding by that agreement. If it wasn't for that agreement, I don't know that the board would have really had any actual grounds to stop this particular project.


I think that Park City is one of the few, if not the only major ski area where it's base area facilites (on the Park City side of the resort atleast) are literally in the middle of what actually constitutes a small city verses just a casual ski town, so I can see why this arrangement is in place


jaytrem said:


> Hmmm, the new Eagle would replace 2 triples.  Since that would be similar capacity, maybe it should have been approved.  Not sure exactly how they calculate though, vert and length might be involved.


Capacity casmacity..it's all about the chairlift tourism now!!


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## drjeff (Jun 17, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I don’t want the sport to grow. Like it where it is. Growing actually shuts out the little guys or so it seems. I guess what do you mean by growing. Does growing mean places getting bigger and consolidating or does it mean more people skiing?


Gotta get more people into the sport, especially given how many Boomers make it up right now, and they're quickly aging out often due to physical limitations of the aging process.

Plus the reality is that so many ski areas now do have the infrastructure to handle more skiers/riders than say 20 years ago.

I get the selfish side most of us have where we would love to have the shorter liftlines at so many ski areas we all enjoyed in the past. However if we all do love the ski industry, we should be rooting for busier ski areas for their economic well being, which ultimately benefits us all


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## Newpylong (Jun 18, 2022)

As selfish as I can be, the more people riding the better. Ski areas close and stagnate due to lack of demand. The Epic boom for Vail resorts has pushed longtime riders to others areas who now benefit. They've constructed a trickle down effect.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 18, 2022)

Town hates what Vail has done and finally told them they have final say. They said you don’t need more people movers you need to fix traffic and parking before anything. 

Old Park City had plans in place for 5 story parking garage in upper base lot and Woodward in first time lot. But that all vanished once Vail took over. 

Vails new plan is to get rid of 60% of current parking to do dick head real estate shit. No way city let’s that happen at this point. 

80% of that town hates Vail. Best thing that could happen is town starting to revolt like
This. Good for them


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2022)

machski said:


> This move could be anti-Vail by the commission (and a warning shot to Alterra as well) but IMHO sets an ominous precedent in terms of municipal boards and resort investments.  We are not talking about new terrain with these halted projects, simply lift replacements.  Yes, they are upgrades in the case of Silverload with a bit more capacity but the other project replaces two existing lifts with a single lift (yes, again a bit of an overall caacity increase).  Between the Cottonwood issues and seeming roadblocks by various groups towards trying to improve access up those and now this, I would say destination skiers are going to start taking notice.  Trailboss, maybe you will see reduced visitation and crowding out there soon.


The key factor here was PCMR’s agreement with PC as to capacity.


----------



## snoseek (Jun 18, 2022)

Let's not forget how vail got into park city to begin with


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## FBGM (Jun 19, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Let's not forget how vail got into park city to begin with


Town hates Vail for it. They don’t care that old owners messed up, they care that Vail came in and changed it all up. 

Vail single-handedly ruined the town and ski area of Park City. The town didn’t know at first and was to late to see and react. And they could only do some much. Finally they are getting some traction. 

The Vail effect on the ski area, town, people and employees is horrible. There were many reasons why I sold and left, Vail and ruining town was one of the many.


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## machski (Jun 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The key factor here was PCMR’s agreement with PC as to capacity.


Probably true, but that didn't seem to play into the interconnect Gondi or any of the new lifts for that whole thing.  Hopefully, the Town now speaks with one voice and one board doesn't approve one thing only to have the council side with a few complaints and rule another way.

With all the noise in PC and the Cottonwoods, wonder how the idea of another SLC Olympics is going over out there?  It was contentious as I recall last time.


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## ss20 (Jun 19, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably true, but that didn't seem to play into the interconnect Gondi or any of the new lifts for that whole thing.  Hopefully, the Town now speaks with one voice and one board doesn't approve one thing only to have the council side with a few complaints and rule another way.
> 
> With all the noise in PC and the Cottonwoods, wonder how the idea of another SLC Olympics is going over out there?  It was contentious as I recall last time.



I don't think it will happen or should happen.  There's a lot of problems that should be resolved before spending billions on Olympics.  My apartment out here was a temporary move til I could find a small house or condo... wanting something big enough for myself and an extra bedroom for guests.  Those are starting at about $290k and no real selection til you're above $320k.  That's a problem, IMO.  The summer gig I picked up has quite a few kids just out of college and they're all struggling and considering moving back to wherever they're from.  I'm certainly in far better shape than them and still the goal of home ownership here is daunting. 

SLC is also pretty small compared to where the Olympics have been held recently or are upcoming.  SLC is not on par with Paris, Los Angeles, or Milan.


----------



## FBGM (Jun 19, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I don't think it will happen or should happen.  There's a lot of problems that should be resolved before spending billions on Olympics.  My apartment out here was a temporary move til I could find a small house or condo... wanting something big enough for myself and an extra bedroom for guests.  Those are starting at about $290k and no real selection til you're above $320k.  That's a problem, IMO.  The summer gig I picked up has quite a few kids just out of college and they're all struggling and considering moving back to wherever they're from.  I'm certainly in far better shape than them and still the goal of home ownership here is daunting.
> 
> SLC is also pretty small compared to where the Olympics have been held recently or are upcoming.  SLC is not on par with Paris, Los Angeles, or Milan.


I think the Olympics should 100% come back there for a few reasons. 

1 - all facilities and infrastructure are there, built, being used and fine. Don’t need to spend billions building more. 

2 - it might kick the state and ski areas in the ass some to improve some traffic flow and roads all some of the traffic shit. 

3 - airport is new and SLC can handle some temp influx of people and staff and whatnot. Ski areas can’t, but SLC has enough beds. 

Down fall is traffic even worse, prices will be even worse, Vail will fuck something up with it, the Mormons will fuck something up with it


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2022)

FBGM said:


> I think the Olympics should 100% come back there for a few reasons.
> 
> 1 - all facilities and infrastructure are there, built, being used and fine. Don’t need to spend billions building more.
> 
> ...


You took the words out of my mouth.  I'm in favor of hosting another one.  The facilities are all ready to go.  And, like 2002, the Mormons will have to compromise on some of their weird shit in order to make people feel welcome.  Such as not feeling like a criminal when getting a drink.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 20, 2022)

I mean that winter would be a complete shit show, right?


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## FBGM (Jun 20, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I mean that winter would be a complete shit show, right?


Couldn’t be any worse then Sundance. Maybe it would feel like an extra few weeks of Sundance. But most weekends feel like that now anyway so??? Send it.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I mean that winter would be a complete shit show, right?


Not necessarily.  I would think that Vail may not be interested, so that venue may move.  

BCC and LCC are out due to avalanche issues and only one route out of each.


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## thebigo (Jun 20, 2022)

All the skiing events are going to be at snowbasin and deer valley? What is the plan for downhill?


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## machski (Jun 20, 2022)

thebigo said:


> All the skiing events are going to be at snowbasin and deer valley? What is the plan for downhill?


Bigger question is where does Snowboarding happen?  If PCMR isn't in, then where?  But Vail still host Birds of Prey at BC every year, so I wouldn't count Vail out.


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## drjeff (Jun 20, 2022)

thebigo said:


> All the skiing events are going to be at snowbasin and deer valley? What is the plan for downhill?



The 2002 downhill was originally slated to be held at Snowbird. A bunch of logistical issues and concerns from some of the same groups now opposing the LCC Gondola, had the planing committee moving it to Snowbasin, and in turn truly ended up giving Snowbasin some world class infrastructure, and the Bernhard Russi designed Men's and Women's Downhill and Super G courses (The Grizzly for the men and Wildflower for the women if memory serves me correctly)

Guessing that Snowbasin could be used again for speed events with just some relatively minor tweaking. 

Pretty obvious that Deer Valley knows how to do a World Class freestyle venue/comp, and likely could host the slalom again as they did in 02.

The reality is if for various reasons Park City is "allowed" to host the GS races (which would be such a travesty especially with the headquarters of the US Ski and Snowboard association roughly a mile away) guessing that if the protesting groups don't want any LCC or BCC venues that you could get a FIS homologated GS hill at either Deer Valley or Snowbasin.

As for the 1/2 pipe (if that's still even an event if/when Salt Lake City gets another games) and other Freestyle Venues, the area around the ski jumping and bobsled/luge tracks as well as the Woodward Park City facility nearby I am guessing could be used.

Something tells me though that if SLC gets another games, that the organizing committee will be able to cut through some of the red tape around some of the likely venues one way or another when push comes to shove


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## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2022)

Letters, June 18-21: PCMR neighbors now own the mess
					

Thanks to some busybodies in our community who think meddling in a private company's internal business affairs is somehow their business, PCMR will be unable to upgrade Silverlode and Eagle lifts this year.




					www.parkrecord.com


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## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2022)

Tom Clyde: Right answer to wrong question
					

Wednesday night was significant in Park City and in the ski industry generally. The interests of the ski resorts and the ski town have been on a more or less parallel track for 60 years. Wednesday, it became clear that they have diverged, and maybe completely derailed. It’s going to get interesting.




					www.parkrecord.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 21, 2022)

Good reads, thanks!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 21, 2022)

Here's a question.  The town guidelines is the comfortable carrying capacity is 13,700 skiers.  Is that both PCMR plus Canyons?  I'd assume so.

Why doesn't the town say, "build whatever you want, but you have to put in a reservation system with a hard cap at 13,700 skiers.   If you want to go above that threshold, tell us how many skiers you want to serve at peak capacity and the community will tell you what is needed for the town to support that growth in the way of employee housing, increased parking and other transportation improvements."

I don't think that's unreasonable for any municipality to ask of high attendance attractions or very large employers.  I think of Boston's pitch to Amazon for HQ2 of Suffolk Downs.  That area of the city would become a total nightmare with a 25k workforce increase without substantial transportation improvements.   That really should be the responsibility of the business to fund, but instead the citizenry typically funds it plus offers tax breaks to the employer.


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## machski (Jun 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a question.  The town guidelines is the comfortable carrying capacity is 13,700 skiers.  Is that both PCMR plus Canyons?  I'd assume so.
> 
> Why doesn't the town say, "build whatever you want, but you have to put in a reservation system with a hard cap at 13,700 skiers.   If you want to go above that threshold, tell us how many skiers you want to serve at peak capacity and the community will tell you what is needed for the town to support that growth in the way of employee housing, increased parking and other transportation improvements."
> 
> I don't think that's unreasonable for any municipality to ask of high attendance attractions or very large employers.  I think of Boston's pitch to Amazon for HQ2 of Suffolk Downs.  That area of the city would become a total nightmare with a 25k workforce increase without substantial transportation improvements.   That really should be the responsibility of the business to fund, but instead the citizenry typically funds it plus offers tax breaks to the employer.


13,700 for the largest ski area in America seems vastly too small.  I bet that # is for PC alone.  After all, the Canyons base etc isn't really in the city proper, it's North of town.


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## FBGM (Jun 22, 2022)

We would do more then 13k skier visits at PC most saturdays back in the day, before Canhole merger. I’d assume PC/Can together now is 20k+ busy days. DV maxes out around 8k but no one really knows that exact number.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 22, 2022)

machski said:


> 13,700 for the largest ski area in America seems vastly too small.  I bet that # is for PC alone.  After all, the Canyons base etc isn't really in the city proper, it's North of town.


My sense is PC alone.  The deal was struck with POWDR and PC.  POWDR did not have anything to do with Canyons.  But that again begs the question of why PC and Vail did not revisit the agreement when the two areas were connected.  If I had to guess, Vail figured that it was vague enough that they could skate by.


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## RichT (Jun 22, 2022)

Damn, seems like Hunter got close to that a couple weekends last year.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 22, 2022)

Park City Mountain Resort’s next steps unclear after lift upgrade refused
					

Park City Mountain Resort in the spring outlined an intention to introduce a paid-parking system in the upcoming ski season ahead of a proposal to upgrade its lift network, but it’s unclear if the measure will still be implemented during the 2022-2023 ski season following a Park City Planning...




					www.parkrecord.com


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## skef (Jun 25, 2022)

Back to the core subject here (Vail sucking): the Jaded Local piece in the latest Mountain Gazette is pretty fresh/raw: “Katz is no Putin, but he’s bullshitting in the finest Russian style.” Ouch.


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## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

Got an ad in my inbox from indeed...one of the postings was an uncertified instructor at Winter Park.... $20/hr.  No cert and no experience, doesn't even mention a requirement of getting a cert 1. 

Vail may suck but $20/hr is gonna suck up a ton of talent in the industry.


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## 2Planker (Jun 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Got an ad in my inbox from indeed...one of the postings was an uncertified instructor at Winter Park.... $20/hr.  No cert and no experience, doesn't even mention a requirement of getting a cert 1.
> 
> Vail may suck but $20/hr is gonna suck up a ton of talent in the industry.


Ha  Ha   That'll never happen in NH
AT/WC are not even paying groomers or Lift mechanics $20/hr


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Vail may suck but $20/hr is gonna suck up a ton of talent in the industry.


Or will it?  Vail's woes have been very, very public.


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## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Or will it?  Vail's woes have been very, very public.



I know- I've talked with a ton of former VR employees.  But I think $20/hr will stop a lot of the bleeding unless the other major companies catch up.  

It'll be interesting to see.  The stock price keeps hovering near its 52wk low.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2022)

I think $20 is still too low.  That's less than $12 an hour in 1999 dollars.  We still have a ways to go for wages to catch up with inflation.   

Given what ski areas charge for lessons, they are still screwing over instructors at that rate.


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## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think $20 is still too low.  That's less than $12 an hour in 1999 dollars.  We still have a ways to go for wages to catch up with inflation.
> 
> Given what ski areas charge for lessons, they are still screwing over instructors at that rate.



Don't start   I'll get paragraphs going.


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## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Ha  Ha   That'll never happen in NH
> AT/WC are not even paying groomers or Lift mechanics $20/hr







__





						Attitash Jobs
					






					jobs.vailresortscareers.com
				




Lift Mechanic at Attitash- tiers of $16/$19.78/$23.90 with a promise it goes to at least $20/hr this October with the company-wide wage increase.


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## 2Planker (Jun 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even a zero experience burger flipper starts at $16/hr.
Anyone worth their weight, with experience has already left AT/WC. 
Good luck to em finding quality employees with experience who want to work for Vail


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## NYDB (Jun 30, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think $20 is still too low.  That's less than $12 an hour in 1999 dollars.  We still have a ways to go for wages to catch up with inflation.
> 
> Given what ski areas charge for lessons, they are still screwing over instructors at that rate.


agreed. where the hell do you live on $20 an hour?  even before the last 2 years of mountain real estate going bananas.  

unless they are only looking for trust funders and retirees


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## Edd (Jun 30, 2022)

NYDB said:


> agreed. where the hell do you live on $20 an hour?  even before the last 2 years of mountain real estate going bananas.
> 
> unless they are only looking for trust funders and retirees


Arkansas? Missouri? This could be confusing to Vail GMs since they come from the Midwest generally.


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## Mainer (Jul 1, 2022)

Attitash and wildcat joined the mwv chamber of commerce again. I’m psyched. I don’t have to give vail any money and I get 5 passes to each so I can ski my favorite mountains in the area. I was getting the chamber pass regardless so it’s a win win for me. They must have realized the valley hates them. I hate them a little less now.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 1, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Attitash and wildcat joined the mwv chamber of commerce again. I’m psyched. I don’t have to give vail any money and I get 5 passes to each so I can ski my favorite mountains in the area. I was getting the chamber pass regardless so it’s a win win for me. They must have realized the valley hates them. I hate them a little less now.


Well, are you sure that they are going to participate?  Vail is known for pulling out of such programs because it’s all about EPIC.


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## 2Planker (Jul 1, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Attitash and wildcat joined the mwv chamber of commerce again. I’m psyched. I don’t have to give vail any money and I get 5 passes to each so I can ski my favorite mountains in the area. I was getting the chamber pass regardless so it’s a win win for me. They must have realized the valley hates them. I hate them a little less now.


Sweet   I'm in again too
Still include BW, Black, Cranmore, King Pine, & Shawnee ??
7 places, 35 days for how much ?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 1, 2022)

Guest editorial: This past ski season was uninspiring, at best
					

Glenn Holley, a long time champion of this community and our local culture moved on tragically last month. He will be sorely missed but not soon forgotten. He was a good friend, a great guy...




					www.parkrecord.com


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## joshua segal (Jul 2, 2022)

The guest editorial cited above baffles me in two ways:
1. It doesn't mention Vail, so it's not clear how it's relevant to this thread.
2. It doesn't mention New England or Northeast, so it's not clear how it's relevant to a forum titled "Northeast Skiing and Snowboarding Forum"

That being said, I do agree with the title of the guest editorial for the Northeast, "This past ski season was uninspiring, at best" for the following reasons:
1. Only 2 or 3 areas in New England were more than half open by mid-January (and one of them was a Vail operated area)
2. Despite Killington's June 4th closing, many areas closed early due to record-warm March temps.


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## joshua segal (Jul 2, 2022)

The discussion of Vail's $20 per hour is an issue of "region of the country" in which one lives.

For example, in NYC, $20 per hour is a starvation wage.  In some of the "3rd world" areas of the USA, people would be lining up for a chance to make $20 per hour.

In New England/the Northeast:
1. Many of the large areas deal with the employment problem with a combination of J3 visa people and on-site (or nearby) employee housing.
2. Many northeast ski areas have people living within easy commuting distance of ski areas.  This yields 3 groups of people for whom the cost of housing is a non-issue and $20 per hour is a reasonable wage:
a. Teenagers looking for a free lift ticket and some spending money
b. Landscapers, farmers and other seasonal workers who work the ski areas in their off-season.
c. Retired people who love the ski-scene who were not unhappy at $10 per hour

The bigger problem for filling jobs is: Many people who wanted a $20 an hour job, (but were not smart enough to get one,) apparently thought they were smart enough to overrule the science/medical community on vaccinations and were unwilling to get the vaccine that was required to get the job!


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## ss20 (Jul 8, 2022)

Unemployment at the national level has always been good for ski area staffing levels.  Unemployment rate surprising many economists and is continuing to stay low despite a certain "economic slowdown" by using almost all other measures.  

Will be interesting to watch the next couple months as we inch towards the October hiring season at the resorts.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 8, 2022)

Sir, this is a Vail Sucks thread

Hiring starts in December


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## joshua segal (Jul 8, 2022)

My understanding is that hiring (i.e., offers for new employees) for "seasonal positions" starts in October but actual start of the work schedule is later, with starting date depending on the area.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 8, 2022)

Vail has shown to be well behind schedule from the competition in terms of job fairs and hiring in the Mt Washington valley anyway.  At least the past few years.  Maybe that changes this season.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jul 8, 2022)

Many resorts start hiring earlier now. Jackson Hole as an example posts winter jobs on August 1st.


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## bigbob (Jul 8, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> The discussion of Vail's $20 per hour is an issue of "region of the country" in which one lives.
> 
> For example, in NYC, $20 per hour is a starvation wage.  In some of the "3rd world" areas of the USA, people would be lining up for a chance to make $20 per hour.
> 
> ...


Some of the ski area jobs don't require any skill sets. Some, like lift mechanics, electricians, equipment mechanics, etc require licenses and prior experience. These people are sought after by all ski areas and would require a more competitive wage than $20/hour. I would say $30+ per hour.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jul 8, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Some of the ski area jobs don't require any skill sets. Some, like lift mechanics, electricians, equipment mechanics, etc require licenses and prior experience. These people are sought after by all ski areas and would require a more competitive wage than $20/hour. I would say $30+ per hour.


Licenses and experience required for lift mechanics...LOL. Not in America.


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## thebigo (Jul 8, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> My understanding is that hiring (i.e., offers for new employees) for "seasonal positions" starts in October but actual start of the work schedule is later, with starting date depending on the area.


Joshua, we have skied together, not sure if you remember 

Do you really think vail has been a good steward of crotched?

Joshua, how many days last year did you ski non-vail nh mountains?


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## joshua segal (Jul 8, 2022)

Bigo: I do remember you.

I skied 144 days and 2.5M vert last season. 14 were at non-Vail areas, including Killington, Ragged and Cannon.  Tough to spend on lift-tickets with Okemo, Mt. Snow and Sunapee available as easy day trips.

CM was left a mess by the departing GM.  The new GM came on board late in 2021.  It's hard to say what problems at CM were Vail related versus the impossible job the new GM was given.  The new GM appears to be doing an excellent job.  There are more work and deferred maintenance issues being attended to this summer than I have seen in any summer since 2007 (the year I started there) with the possible exception of the summer when the HSQ was installed.  

Given the ambiguity of the evidence, I will be able to answer your question better following the 2022-3 season.


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## thebigo (Jul 8, 2022)

I hate vail


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## thebigo (Jul 8, 2022)

Joshua, the work you have done in solstice is special.


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## catskillman (Jul 9, 2022)

Judge hears harsh criticisms of Vail Resorts labor lawsuit settlement
					

SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif. — A fair calculation of wages owed to Vail Resorts workers would be easily found by viewing company records of employees’ scheduled hours, and then subtracting the hours for which those...




					www.tahoedailytribune.com
				




sums up Vail ....it sucks


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## joshua segal (Jul 9, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Joshua, the work you have done in solstice is special.


Thanks.  It's amazing how much work it takes to keep glades skiable. You would not believe the amount of deadfall I have picked up this summer already.  In addition, there are usually a couple of very large trees that block prime lines that come down every year and require extensive work to clear. For those not familiar with Solstice Glade (the Galde - not the trail of the same name), it is so clear of rocks and stumps, that I will ski it with a good pair of skis with as little as 3 inches of natural snow.


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## bigbob (Jul 9, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Licenses and experience required for lift mechanics...LOL. Not in America.


I was referring to the electricians, the other positions do require experience. Would you want some kid out of high school repairing the lift you would be riding on with at the minimum supervision by someone who has done this before?


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## Smellytele (Jul 9, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Judge hears harsh criticisms of Vail Resorts labor lawsuit settlement
> 
> 
> SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif. — A fair calculation of wages owed to Vail Resorts workers would be easily found by viewing company records of employees’ scheduled hours, and then subtracting the hours for which those...
> ...


Actually proves lawyers suck as well. Taking a 1/3rd of the money. I know it is common for that which doesn't make it any better. Class action suits are always a little dubious.


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## ss20 (Jul 9, 2022)

bigbob said:


> I was referring to the electricians, the other positions do require experience. Would you want some kid out of high school repairing the lift you would be riding on with at the minimum supervision by someone who has done this before?



Uh... this is pretty normal practice, hate to tell you.  20yo-somethings working under a 30yo-something super.  Lifts are a great way to gain experience in a ton of different trade fields.  Work on a lift crew for a few years, learn some fabrication, mechanical, and electrical skills, and ski for a few years.... then when you're 25 move on to something that pays more than $22/hr.  No one who works on a lift crew for their first season would meet your definition of "experienced".  Here's a job posting I found- https://jobs.wavy.com/jobs/lift-mec...m_source=google_jobs_apply&utm_medium=organic

Pretty much the same job requirements as positions in the rest of the industry- "breathing"


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jul 9, 2022)

bigbob said:


> I was referring to the electricians, the other positions do require experience. Would you want some kid out of high school repairing the lift you would be riding on with at the minimum supervision by someone who has done this before?


Many lift mechanics start with no experience. It is extremely common.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Uh... this is pretty normal practice, hate to tell you.  20yo-somethings working under a 30yo-something super.  Lifts are a great way to gain experience in a ton of different trade fields.  Work on a lift crew for a few years, learn some fabrication, mechanical, and electrical skills, and ski for a few years.... then when you're 25 move on to something that pays more than $22/hr.  No one who works on a lift crew for their first season would meet your definition of "experienced".  Here's a job posting I found- https://jobs.wavy.com/jobs/lift-mec...m_source=google_jobs_apply&utm_medium=organic
> 
> Pretty much the same job requirements as positions in the rest of the industry- "breathing"



This job description is misleading, that position is more for a lift operator than a mechanic. 95% of the functions in that job description are performed by a typical operator or lift supervisor. There isn't even any mention of actual hands on mechanical work/repairs.

That said, yes some lift mechanics start with no industry experience, but they typically require experience in operating and repairing heavy machinery, which is directly portable with some oversight and training. They also aren't sent out to troubleshoot an issue by themselves for quite some time.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 11, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Many lift mechanics start with no experience. It is extremely common.


I can think of 3-4 GM's who all started w/ ZERO experience as a Lifty, and worked their way up.
 Locally that is exactly John DeVivo's (Cannon) and Brian Heon (SR) story

Of course w/ the NEW Vail now  If you have Food & Bev skills you are considered vastly experienced, enough to be the GM at least at Attitash or WildCat


----------



## bigbob (Jul 11, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Many lift mechanics start with no experience. It is extremely common.


And I would assume the ad for the position would state looking for a Lift Mechanic Apprentice. Tradesmen have to start somewhere, And I am sure Wytech doesn't have a program for lift mechanics. Maybe Mike Rowe could chim in if a school is around for this field.


----------



## machski (Jul 11, 2022)

bigbob said:


> And I would assume the ad for the position would state looking for a Lift Mechanic Apprentice. Tradesmen have to start somewhere, And I am sure Wytech doesn't have a program for lift mechanics. Maybe Mike Rowe could chim in if a school is around for this field.


I want to say one of the Tech Schools out in CO up in the mountains has a lift ops/MX program.  As I recall, they even have multiple towers with different manufacturers cross arms and sheave sets out in the school yard.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 11, 2022)

machski said:


> I want to say one of the Tech Schools out in CO up in the mountains has a lift ops/MX program.  As I recall, they even have multiple towers with different manufacturers cross arms and sheave sets out in the school yard.


CMC in Leadville I believe is the school you may be talking about.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 11, 2022)

We've hired kids w/ degrees from this place.
There's on in VT too, but it's no where near as through
https://coloradomtn.edu/programs/ski-area-operations/


----------



## bigbob (Jul 11, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I can think of 3-4 GM's who all started w/ ZERO experience as a Lifty, and worked their way up.
> Locally that is exactly John DeVivo's (Cannon) and Brian Heon (SR) story
> 
> Of course w/ the NEW Vail now  If you have Food & Bev skills you are considered vastly experienced, enough to be the GM at least at Attitash or WildCat


John DeVivo used to work at Sunday River and I think he still commutes from the Waterford Maine area every day to work at Cannon. I saw the Cannon car at the Sand Lot ball field on RT 118 in Waterford a few years back.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 11, 2022)

2Planker said:


> We've hired kids w/ degrees from this place.
> There's on in VT too, but it's no where near as through
> https://coloradomtn.edu/programs/ski-area-operations/


yup CMC


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 11, 2022)

bigbob said:


> John DeVivo used to work at Sunday River and I think he still commutes from the Waterford Maine area every day to work at Cannon. I saw the Cannon car at the Sand Lot ball field on RT 118 in Waterford a few years back.


You are correct. 
I trained/worked w/ him all those "glory years" at SR in the 90's. Good guy for sure.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2022)

Vail's latest fail.  https://liftblog.com/2022/07/27/error-pauses-bergman-bowl-construction-at-keystone/


----------



## cdskier (Jul 28, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail's latest fail.  https://liftblog.com/2022/07/27/error-pauses-bergman-bowl-construction-at-keystone/


That's a rather big "oops"


----------



## drjeff (Jul 28, 2022)

As the article states, it's not clear as to if the crew who made the error is a Vail Mtn Ops crew, a Leitner-Poma crew or a subcontractor that either Vail Resorts or L-P hired to help with the work? 

Also, not sure from the article if this was say a 25 yard "oops" where they say went up the East side of a streambed when they were supposed to go up the West side of it, or say a 1/2 mile long plus "oops" where they cleared a work road ina completely different location than they were supposed to.  Either way it's an issue

Lot's of unkowns in the size of this issue the USFS crew found based on how the article was worded


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> As the article states, it's not clear as to if the crew who made the error is a Vail Mtn Ops crew, a Leitner-Poma crew or a subcontractor that either Vail Resorts or L-P hired to help with the work?


Right on cue with the, "maybe it was not Vail's fault."  

Rob Katz, is that you?

As to the point, true that a contractor or sub may have made the mistake, but at the end of the day Vail is the one accountable to the USFS.


----------



## thebigo (Jul 28, 2022)

the 'epic lift upgrade' is not going well in the rockies:



> For those hoping to take a ride on that Bergman Bowl lift soon, however, they may be waiting another season. While no new timetable on the halted project has been issued, Fitzwilliams said guests will “probably not” be riding the lift anytime soon.
> 
> “We are confident that a lot of the impacts we saw up there can be restored,” Fitzwilliams said. “But it’s gonna take a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of money.”











						Forest Service halts Vail Resorts’ new lift at Keystone due to unauthorized road construction
					

A new access road has been bulldozed through sensitive areas of Keystone Resort where minimal impacts were authorized by White River National Forest land managers.




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## cdskier (Jul 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> As the article states, it's not clear as to if the crew who made the error is a Vail Mtn Ops crew, a Leitner-Poma crew or a subcontractor that either Vail Resorts or L-P hired to help with the work?
> 
> Also, not sure from the article if this was say a 25 yard "oops" where they say went up the East side of a streambed when they were supposed to go up the West side of it, or say a 1/2 mile long plus "oops" where they cleared a work road ina completely different location than they were supposed to.  Either way it's an issue
> 
> Lot's of unkowns in the size of this issue the USFS crew found based on how the article was worded



Doesn't matter which crew made the error. Vail is ultimately responsible and should have either had someone directly overseeing the project or made sure LP or whoever else was working fully understood the approved plans and restrictions imposed by the USFS. The map in the approved plan is pretty clear if you look at it together with the wording of what happened. This is what was reported to have happened: "An area that was supposed to have a minimal construction route was instead approached as a temporary construction route."

On the map in the approval decision there's a line drawn showing the construction route. The line changes to a different style of dashed line near the top of the route to denote that particular part of the route was the "minimal construction route" which meant no grading, no tree removal and limits on the type of machinery that could be driven on that part of the route. This wasn't a matter of someone going in a different location than they were supposed to. It was someone not paying attention to the fact that once you passed a certain point on the designated route, you could no longer do certain things and had to restrict the type of heavy machinery that could be on that last part of the route. When doing the initial prep work on site, this is something that should have been clearly marked at the transition point from "temporary construction route" to "minimal construction route" and communicated to everyone.

Also doesn't exactly sound like a small issue per the comments from the Forest Service supervisor for that region:


> “We are confident that a lot of the impacts we saw up there can be restored,” Fitzwilliams said. “But it’s gonna take a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of money.”


----------



## machski (Jul 28, 2022)

You have to wonder if the constant movement of Vail Resorts senior management around the company has finally caught up to them.  I have no idea how you drive major capital projects like they are doing this year with the amount of moving heads they have.  Balls will get dropped as we just saw.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2022)

Should have hired the F&B manager to oversee the project I guess.


----------



## Edd (Jul 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> As the article states, it's not clear as to if the crew who made the error is a Vail Mtn Ops crew, a Leitner-Poma crew or a subcontractor that either Vail Resorts or L-P hired to help with the work?
> 
> Also, not sure from the article if this was say a 25 yard "oops" where they say went up the East side of a streambed when they were supposed to go up the West side of it, or say a 1/2 mile long plus "oops" where they cleared a work road ina completely different location than they were supposed to.  Either way it's an issue
> 
> Lot's of unkowns in the size of this issue the USFS crew found based on how the article was worded





thetrailboss said:


> Right on cue with the, "maybe it was not Vail's fault."
> 
> Rob Katz, is that you?
> 
> As to the point, true that a contractor or sub may have made the mistake, but at the end of the day Vail is the one accountable to the USFS.



Dr Jeff is a tireless defender of rich guys (Trump) and corporations. He’ll not stand by while they’re disparaged on an internet ski forum.

Thank you, Jeff, for standing up for those at the bottom rung.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 28, 2022)

Its called critical thinking skills. You know, get all the facts before making a judgement. 

If one wants to stop trying to be one of the cool kids and just jump on the Vail Sucks all the time bandwagon, it's pretty obvious that the article has a enticing headline and lacks the complete details.

TB - pretty sure if you brought such a weak story infront of a judge, you'd be laughed out of a courtroom. DHS - pretty sure you would love clients to sell to who just take what you say on blind faith and never question any data associated with a device you might be trying to sell them.

But these days there are so many industries out there who bank on folks not reading past the headline and into the substance. Also explains plenty of claims just about every elected official makes that never has follow through on them. 

Someone screwed up in this situation at Keystone. That I have no doubt about. Who was at fault, since ultimately with lift construction there are subcontractors involved and the lift manufacturer, not the resort is responsible for installing the lift as the permit for it details. Just a minor detail there


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Its called critical thinking skills. You know, get all the facts before making a judgement.
> 
> If one wants to stop trying to be one of the cool kids and just jump on the Vail Sucks all the time bandwagon, it's pretty obvious that the article has a enticing headline and lacks the complete details.
> 
> ...


So first of all, some of the comments were tongue and cheek.  You can't take a ribbing I guess.  

Second, as to the issue of fault, regarding USFS and its position, fault clearly runs to Vail because Vail is the leasee.  Of course Vail has a contract with the GC (Leitner Poma) that likely provides insurance coverage and an indemnity provision (unless the issue WAS Vail's fault) that would require GC to defend Vail if it, or a sub, screwed up.  But as to USFS, Vail is on the hook.  That's how it shakes out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Its called critical thinking skills. You know, get all the facts before making a judgement.
> 
> If one wants to stop trying to be one of the cool kids and just jump on the Vail Sucks all the time bandwagon, it's pretty obvious that the article has a enticing headline and lacks the complete details.
> 
> ...



Settle down Francis.  Only kidding around here.  You have left yourself wide open to such ribbing due to your history of defending Vail probably 95% of the time as if you were employed by their PR department.  You are as one sided pro-Vail as you accuse us Vail hater "cool kids" of being. 

Critical thinking skills work both ways


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## jaytrem (Jul 28, 2022)

Jeff, come to the NO HOMER CLUB...join us... join us...


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## ss20 (Jul 28, 2022)

If this was Magic we'd be sending them "get well soon" flowers. 

Good on Vail for at least being transparent.  Doubt they have much for an in-house crew, was almost certainly a contractor


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## NYDB (Jul 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> If this was Magic we'd be sending them "get well soon" flowers.
> 
> Good on Vail for at least being transparent.  Doubt they have much for an in-house crew, was almost certainly a contractor


If it was magic this would have turned a 3 year lift install into a 5 year lift install.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> If this was Magic we'd be sending them "get well soon" flowers.
> 
> Good on Vail for at least being transparent.  Doubt they have much for an in-house crew, was almost certainly a contractor


Oh I'd agree it was likely a contractor that did the work itself that caused an issue. However that doesn't mean Vail shouldn't have had someone on-site supervising things or at least checking in periodically. What about Keystone's head of mountain ops? Wouldn't someone like that in theory be pretty closely involved in the project?

What happened at Keystone is sort of like someone digging up your front yard at home without asking the utility companies to mark any underground lines first (or they were marked and were ignored). Before any work is done, they should ensure any restrictions/areas that need special care are clearly marked and everyone working on the project should be aware of the meaning of the markings/restrictions.


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## tumbler (Jul 29, 2022)

Yeah, this one is on Keystone/Vail.  This is why you have owner's reps PM's whether in house or outside consultant.  Keystone answers to USFS, not a sub contractor.  I'm sure there is language in the contract that the sub contractor owns the plans and conditions of the approval/permit but someone always has to be watching them.


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## Keelhauled (Jul 29, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Oh I'd agree it was likely a contractor that did the work itself that caused an issue. However that doesn't mean Vail shouldn't have had someone on-site supervising things or at least checking in periodically. What about Keystone's head of mountain ops? Wouldn't someone like that in theory be pretty closely involved in the project?


I don't know, they'll own or rent heavy equipment anyway for trail maintenance, and they've got labor on site already, could well be an entirely in house mistake.  Might even be more likely for ski area workers who aren't necessarily familiar with general construction practices to not know or care about conservation restrictions/setbacks/etc.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> I don't know, they'll own or rent heavy equipment anyway for trail maintenance, and they've got labor on site already, could well be an entirely in house mistake.  Might even be more likely for ski area workers who aren't necessarily familiar with general construction practices to not know or care about conservation restrictions/setbacks/etc.


Goes back to this:



tumbler said:


> This is why you have owner's reps PM's whether in house or outside consultant.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 5, 2022)

Bergman bowl lift delayed and further environmental review required before continuing.

Everything they touch turns to shit






						Bergman Bowl | Keystone Ski Resort
					

Adventure further to new heights, with the addition of lift-served access to Bergman Bowl coming winter 2022-23.




					www.keystoneresort.com


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## BodeMiller1 (Aug 5, 2022)

There is wisdom local skiers have which can not be matched by corporate hacks. Ski mountains are very complex. Skiers as you see on this board, come from all walks of life and isn't this why the sport is so cool. Here's a scene - you're in the a bar at 4:30 PM and on your left you've got a fat old Italian Esq. and on your right a hot 27 year old with blue hair and they both want your for different reasons? Then, you go to a better bar.

A good friend of mine was organizing race events in Vermont. She called Stowe to see if having a race there was feasible. Stowe told her to pound sand. The sad truth is (especially these days with "The Dope Show Raging" Rich people do not want to be with the poor. Are there exceptions...

I hate to go George Costanza on ya butt: *"We're living in a society" *and our society is suffering growing pains.


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## ThatGuy (Aug 5, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Here's a scene - you're in the a bar at 4:30 PM and on your left you've got a fat old Italian Esq. and on your right a hot 27 year old with blue hair and they both want your for different reasons? Then, you go to a better bar.


I’m so lost here. Is this about Ford stock?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2022)

The latest Vail fail.  Looks like the Mothership took the hit this time.









						Vail Town Council Blocks Permits For Vail Resorts Employee Housing Expansion
					

Vail Resorts took another hit Tuesday night after the Vail Town Council voted to suspend the issuance of permits for the company’s East Vail Booth Heights property. The town already voted to …




					unofficialnetworks.com


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## djd66 (Aug 5, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I’m so lost here. Is this about Ford stock?


in a sick way, I actually enjoy his posts and all the funny the responses.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 5, 2022)

djd66 said:


> in a sick way, I actually enjoy his posts and all the funny the responses.


He starts coherent then drifts off into the insane mumblings of a mad man.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 5, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> He starts coherent then drifts off into the insane mumblings of a mad man.



I love it.  Reminds me of all the people I've met at ski resort hostels.  

Shout-out to a group of 3 dudes who were at Turn of River Lodge 3 or 4 years ago.  Rather than pay for food they drove the 45 minutes to the Rutland Walmart and purchased a small Coleman grill.  I went to bed at like 10pm and they were still fumbling in the parking lot trying to assemble it.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Aug 5, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I’m so lost here. Is this about Ford stock?


If it's up.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Aug 5, 2022)

NSR:
It's not that bad...


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The latest Vail fail.  Looks like the Mothership took the hit this time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They may have indeed.

Confusing though when you look at the pics of the "agregious" incident at Keystone (which looks to the casual observer like a typical above treeline work road) and then say compare that to the images Sunday River/Boyne have put online of the construction area at the Summit of Jordan where the new 8 pack bubble is going in where it looks like a bomb went off with about a 50 yard radius annihilation area... plus after having looked at with my own 2 eyes a few hours ago the area cleared for the new base terminal of the Sundance 6 pack and its first few tower locations at Mount Snow, lift construction in today's day and age definitely involves the movement of lots of earth and the underlying bedrock.

Ultimately when it's done with any new lift, it seems like the following Summer you'd never know how much earth and rock had to be moved to make it happen if you hadn't seen it with your own eyes


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Confusing though when you look at the pics of the "agregious" incident at Keystone (which looks to the casual observer like a typical above treeline work road) and then say compare that to the images Sunday River/Boyne have put online of the construction area at the Summit of Jordan where the new 8 pack bubble is going in where it looks like a bomb went off with about a 50 yard radius annihilation area... plus after having looked at with my own 2 eyes a few hours ago the area cleared for the new base terminal of the Sundance 6 pack and its first few tower locations at Mount Snow, lift construction in today's day and age definitely involves the movement of lots of earth and the underlying bedrock.


Apples and oranges.  Keystone was done at a much higher altitude and in USFS land subject to their regulations.  IIRC Sunday River lies on private land. 

More details of the specific issues with Keystone incident here:



			https://lede-admin.coloradosun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2022/08/SIR-Bergman-Bowl-Enhancements-EA-FINAL.pdf


----------



## cdskier (Aug 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Apples and oranges.  Keystone was done at a much higher altitude and in USFS land subject to their regulations.  IIRC Sunday River lies on private land.
> 
> More details of the specific issues with Keystone incident here:
> 
> ...


Yup...what it looks like compared to something else is 100% irrelevant if it was things they were specifically told not to do. Reading this document, this was much more than just a simple mistake. Looks like many requirements/restrictions in the approved plans were ignored.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 8, 2022)

The Democrats NEPA policies were put in place with good intentions but have become a serious pia for doing just about anything on public lands.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 8, 2022)

High Alpine ecosystems have always been very protected.  This one is bad management all around.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 8, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> The Democrats NEPA policies were put in place with good intentions but have become a serious pia for doing just about anything on public lands.


Please name a ski area project which was rejected on NEPA grounds in the last 20 years.

Also NEPA passed unanimously in the Senate, 372-15 in the House and was signed into law by Richard Nixon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> The Democrats NEPA policies were put in place with good intentions but have become a serious pia for doing just about anything on public lands.


As said, these were major errors......


----------



## machski (Aug 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> They may have indeed.
> 
> Confusing though when you look at the pics of the "agregious" incident at Keystone (which looks to the casual observer like a typical above treeline work road) and then say compare that to the images Sunday River/Boyne have put online of the construction area at the Summit of Jordan where the new 8 pack bubble is going in where it looks like a bomb went off with about a 50 yard radius annihilation area... plus after having looked at with my own 2 eyes a few hours ago the area cleared for the new base terminal of the Sundance 6 pack and its first few tower locations at Mount Snow, lift construction in today's day and age definitely involves the movement of lots of earth and the underlying bedrock.
> 
> Ultimately when it's done with any new lift, it seems like the following Summer you'd never know how much earth and rock had to be moved to make it happen if you hadn't seen it with your own eyes


Sorry man, you cannot compare the two.  As others have said, SR is 100% private land and outside the National Forest system/lands.  Add to that the top of Jordan barely crests 3000', it isn't protected, delicate tundra terrain anyway.  Bergman Bowl is and construction in those zones on NFS lands has always had very strict construction guidelines and specific plans to be followed.  Keystone didn't ensure the contractors stayed within those narrow guidelines and now are paying the price.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 9, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Please name a ski area project which was rejected on NEPA grounds in the last 20 years.
> 
> Also NEPA passed unanimously in the Senate, 372-15 in the House and was signed into law by Richard Nixon.


Ever try to build a new trail on National Forest Service land?

I don't care to post a link to something to prove you wrong and win the internet today. I'm sure there's been a lot of proposed ideas for ski areas that were kiboshed because of environmental concerns. Like a shit ton. 

The hoops one needs to jump through to create any kind of infrastructure on public lands is extremely costly. That I do know.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 9, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Please name a ski area project which was rejected on NEPA grounds in the last 20 years.
> 
> Also NEPA passed unanimously in the Senate, 372-15 in the House and was signed into law by Richard Nixon.


Ahh, right you are. I didn't know that. thanks for the post. 

Many NEPA policies were enacted by Clinton in the 90's though and that's what I remembered. I wasn't born yet when Nixon was president. 



			https://media.rff.org/documents/RFF-DP-01-38.pdf


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 10, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Ever try to build a new trail on National Forest Service land?
> 
> I don't care to post a link to something to prove you wrong and win the internet today. I'm sure there's been a lot of proposed ideas for ski areas that were kiboshed because of environmental concerns. Like a shit ton.
> 
> The hoops one needs to jump through to create any kind of infrastructure on public lands is extremely costly. That I do know.


All public land is not created equal. Most Forest Service ski area projects are green lighted with minimal review. It happens hundreds of times every offseason, we only hear about the occasional hiccup.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 10, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> All public land is not created equal. Most *WESTERN *Forest Service ski area projects are green lighted with minimal review. It happens hundreds of times every offseason, we only hear about the occasional hiccup.


Fixed it for you, or atleast that what it sure seems like.

In the East, it seems like a big deal if a ski area gets a new trail or 2 every 10 years, and often that may just be a connector trail or possibly some widening of an existing trail. Rarely do we see an actual new peak developed, which is much more likely to happen out West on a regular basis.

I am sure that there are 101 things that factor into that, but from the casual observer, it certainly seems like the USFS is a much more formidable adversary to development of new ski terrain in the East than in the West


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 10, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Fixed it for you, or atleast that what it sure seems like.
> 
> In the East, it seems like a big deal if a ski area gets a new trail or 2 every 10 years, and often that may just be a connector trail or possibly some widening of an existing trail. Rarely do we see an actual new peak developed, which is much more likely to happen out West on a regular basis.
> 
> I am sure that there are 101 things that factor into that, but from the casual observer, it certainly seems like the USFS is a much more formidable adversary to development of new ski terrain in the East than in the West


Vermont Act 250 is restrictive but again the Forest Service is not. They approved Loon's expansion (which wasn't built.) They approved Attitash's new lift and will approve the next one. They approved Waterville's new lifts. They will approve Sugarbush's new lift. They approved Mount Snow's new lifts. They approved everything that has been applied for in the last decade.

The truth is Northeast demographic trends are poor compared to the West. Margins are way lower. It's easy to blame government regulation but look at Sunday River - flush with thousands of acres of private land and cash but not expanding its footprint much.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 10, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Vermont Act 250 is restrictive but again the Forest Service is not. They approved Loon's expansion (which wasn't built.) They approved Attitash's new lift and will approve the next one. They approved Waterville's new lifts. They will approve Sugarbush's new lift. They approved Mount Snow's new lifts. They approved everything that has been applied for in the last decade.
> 
> The truth is Northeast demographic trends are poor compared to the West. Margins are way lower. It's easy to blame government regulation but look at Sunday River - flush with thousands of acres of private land and cash but not expanding its footprint much.



Forest service is generally OK with new lifts replacing existing ones on the same footprint.  As for the Loon expansion, yeah it happened but it took close to 20 years for it to finally be approved.  

The theory is that the Jordan 8 at Sunday River is such high capacity so it can be a jumping off point for future expansion down that ridge.  But generally I do agree, not a ton of ROI for resort expansion in the northeast once you get beyond 500 acres or so.  The Killington-Pico interconnect would be a great case study for your post.  Parker's Gore never got built because of environmental concerns (although that was more complicated than just the Forest Service).  After that was dead in the water Killington and the State traded for the land to connect between Killington/Pico.  Here we are, almost 30 years down the road, still not built.  I believe the permits quietly get renewed/extended every time they're about to expire.  But would it move the needle on guest visitation?  Some say yes, others say nay.


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## Newpylong (Aug 10, 2022)

I think the biggest concern with expansion at this point is the ability to actually cover that terrain. When you have a shortened snowmaking season, resorts like Killington and SR aren't even able to get all of their snowmaking terrain open. Why would anyone expand on the amount of acreage in a big way is beyond me. At least SR is investing in the booster station and better feeds to get water more efficiently over to Jordan. Killington's system while expansive is not that impressive if you actually went and looked at it. It is very manual, inefficient, and they cannot pump a lot of water per acre. I wish someone like B. Ryan (Boyne ex-Peaks) would get hired over there to kick them in the ass.


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## drjeff (Aug 10, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I think the biggest concern with expansion at this point is the ability to actually cover that terrain. When you have a shortened snowmaking season, resorts like Killington and SR aren't even able to get all of their snowmaking terrain open. Why would anyone expand on the amount of acreage in a big way is beyond me. At least SR is investing in the booster station and better feeds to get water more efficiently over to Jordan. Killington's system while expansive is not that impressive if you actually went and looked at it. It is very manual, inefficient, and they cannot pump a lot of water per acre. I wish someone like B. Ryan (Boyne ex-Peaks) would get hired over there to kick them in the ass.



Just curious as to what your highly educated opinion is as to what it would take (and I'm more talking dollars than specifics such as #'s of compressors/pumps/more automated snowmaking equipment, etc) for a significant B. Ryanization of their snowmaking system? And I get that while some of a "modernized" K system would still be all about brute force on Superstar (especially as long as they keep hosting the Worldcup and North Ridge for early season) but I would think that many other parts of the mountain they cover would actually benefit from the efficiency savings a significant upgrade in their system could make, even with sunstantial upgrade costs they would likely be looking at


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## Newpylong (Aug 10, 2022)

I couldn't begin to spitball a dollar amount for something that expansive.

But what he would do:


Significant investment in pumping (number of pumps at both Snowshed and Bear) plus the booster stations coupled with automation in the pumphouses. They have to hire a ridiculous number of pump and air operators as well as mechanics every season to keep that system going.
Significant investment in fixed Low-E technology on core trails, moving the existing stuff to secondary trails. That also means using it if it's there. Killington even in great wet bulb at times refuses to use their fixed infrastructure that's already there. We all know how hard of a time they had staffing this year, and when you're moving gear all around the earth and back... They could cut back their diesel rental fleet considerably, if not the number of units, but the time they have them if they still wanted them to surge for the Cup.
Significant reworking of feeds and valve systems. Many of their feeds are old and undersized, limiting the amount of water that can be delivered to any one area. Mount Snow can put 8,000 GPM basically to the summit and top feed nearly the entire place. Imagine if K could put that type of volume on any of their peaks at any one time? 48 hours and all of Snowdon (for example) is done.
How often have they made significant snowmaking investments? All of their on hill gear is 20 years old and more save a few select trails. They added Pipe Dream and Great Bear two years ago, but that was an expansion and only makes it worse. They just aren't going to be able to get the place reasonably covered until something changes. 12,000 GPM distributed very inefficiently is not enough. I hope as the K1 lodge is completed, they may pivot to some of these things. However, one has to be reasonable, that they have done other massive projects while other mountains have not.


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## bigbob (Aug 10, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I couldn't begin to spitball a dollar amount for something that expansive.
> 
> But what he would do:
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is the need additional sources of water in addition to moderenizing their plant to replace people. They have had to shut down since they lowered Woodward Resevoir too much.


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## machski (Aug 10, 2022)

The current learning Quad going in at Attitash did not require Forest Service approval since it does not cross Forest Service land (same reason Flying Yankee was strung up in the LBO era).  Yes, the new Summit Chair has been approved, but in terms of footprint disturbance, it is minimal at worst.

Loon's South Peak originally was suppose to be much larger, in the 30 trail range off the top.  That originally approved NFS plan was haulted by our of state lawsuits, most pretty ridiculous, and the whole thing went back under review.  What we have now is what came out of that.  They do have approval for the learning pod/public portal to South that would center around the lot that is the aux Escape Route lot just across the South Peak bridge.  But the total expansion is a whisper of what had been planned.

As has been said, Sunday River is unique for a large resort in the East in that it is totally contained on privately owner Boyne lands.  They do not have to answer to the NFS at all, just the town for build permits, etc.  Blast off the top of Jordan and move that earth to reshape and grade Kansas, no problem.  Blast the hell out Lower AmEx, go for it.  No pesky Act 250 style crap either to deal with.  Oh, and access to a ton of water.


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## ss20 (Aug 10, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> I couldn't begin to spitball a dollar amount for something that expansive.
> 
> But what he would do:
> 
> ...



All very very true.  

You could probably spitball a more accurate percentage than I could but from my understanding 40-60% of the piping is swiss cheese and needs to be replaced.  

And yeah, as I've said on here before, it could be 10 degrees 24/7 November 1-January 1 and Killington would still be unable to cover all their snowmaking terrain while places like SR, Stratton, Mount Snow, and Okemo could (and Sugarbush would probably have 3 or 4 trails covered ).


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

bigbob said:


> So what you are saying is the need additional sources of water in addition to moderenizing their plant to replace people. They have had to shut down since they lowered Woodward Resevoir too much.


Water itself isn't the problem, it's getting enough of it where it needs to go on the hill.

If they've ever had to shutdown due to lack of water (I've never heard that), that is an outlying factor. In addition to Woodward, the they have the Roaring Brook (Snowshed), Falls Brook (Bear), and the Ottauquechee (Gondola) water sources, which have all been reduced in recent years due to having Woodward. They can always withdraw more from those sources. They are permitted to rebuild the intake down off the Ottauquechee River/Skyeship base, they are supposed to be doing it this off season.


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

ss20 said:


> All very very true.
> 
> You could probably spitball a more accurate percentage than I could but from my understanding 40-60% of the piping is swiss cheese and needs to be replaced.
> 
> And yeah, as I've said on here before, it could be 10 degrees 24/7 November 1-January 1 and Killington would still be unable to cover all their snowmaking terrain while places like SR, Stratton, Mount Snow, and Okemo could (and Sugarbush would probably have 3 or 4 trails covered ).



Not that high, but a lot of the stuff at Bear is shot (Fiddle is the worst and is not serviceable). Great Eastern down to Route 4 is toast and is a problem every year. They are doing a lot of repairs up by North Ridge this year (there was a leak going into Upper East fall that shut them down last year there). On top of that, it's just the topology that does not allow them to put a high volume of water in any one area. With that much pumping capacity in the basin with appropriately sized feeds, they should be able to run: Swirl, Caper, Header, Easy Street and Timberline on Ramshead simultaneously, etc. Mount Snow in a good wet bulb is literally able to run 300 guns at once because they have a 24" feed right to the top of the mountain delivering nearly all of their water capacity. Killington does have the issue of most of their basin feeds running under base facilities, so replacement and repair is a pain. I personally would focus on adding more capacity and repairs on the Bear side first, as that terrain can be so slow to come online and is often fraught with issues.


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## drjeff (Aug 11, 2022)

Sounds like, and much to the marketing department's chagrin, that Killington WOULD benefit much more operations wise with their next major capital investment once the new Lodge is done, from say 10 million in miles and miles of snowmaking pipe replacement as opposed to a new 10 million dollar lift.  The general public doesn't get that, but the general public would defeinitely enjoy the benfits in snow surface quality and quantity that it would bring


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## IceEidolon (Aug 11, 2022)

You've mentioned (or someone who I figured Knew Things mentioned) they're near electrical limits in at least some areas - I imagine that would limit how much additional pumping capacity they could add, but won't prevent pumphouse automation and VFDs.

Do we know what the deal with the string of Impulses on lower Superstar is?


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2022)

Yeah there could be power limitations into the area with GMP. I know that is one reason they continue to rent a lot of air.

The 30' Impulses started as demos to replace the No Logics that were in the same place. Guess they kept them. The piles under them were nearly as tall as the towers themselves on that last push this year, far far larger than the K3000s higher up. I just wish they would do a lot more of them. In pains me to see their crews hoof around all those rats, K guns and hose all winter.


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## IceEidolon (Aug 11, 2022)

I got to demo a late model Snowogic with the boost nozzle - genuinely a good gun in terms of throw and quality, far better than the 700+ psi or slush stories, but it was heavy to raise and lower, slow and complicated to start and stop, didn't tolerate any airline water or debris, and I couldn't see how you could automate 'em without a powered jack. I wouldn't wish a line of the old ones on anyone.


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2022)

Need some solar panels or wind turbines to off set the electrical…


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## IceEidolon (Aug 11, 2022)

Good luck getting Act 250 approval for enough wind turbines - and in the good ridgeline positions - to make a difference.

You inspired some back of the envelope math, though - assuming you get 25% of nameplate capacity on an average snowmaking night (any other snowmakers wanna say how often it's dead calm while you're making snow?) that's about 650 HP per 2 MW turbine. For Holiday Valley, that'd be 4x 1100 HP compressors plus about the same in pumps with all the transfer stations going? You'd need about 14 turbines on an average night, or 4 on a good and windy one. Jiminy Peak would get enough power from their 1.5 MW turbine at full chooch to run 2000+ HP of equipment, which is more than their entire compressor room draws.


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## urungus (Aug 11, 2022)

FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation.  Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2022)

urungus said:


> FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation.  Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?


The ones I know that have a wind turbine have 1. Burke and Bolton


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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Good luck getting Act 250 approval for enough wind turbines - and in the good ridgeline positions - to make a difference.
> 
> You inspired some back of the envelope math, though - assuming you get 25% of nameplate capacity on an average snowmaking night (any other snowmakers wanna say how often it's dead calm while you're making snow?) that's about 650 HP per 2 MW turbine. For Holiday Valley, that'd be 4x 1100 HP compressors plus about the same in pumps with all the transfer stations going? You'd need about 14 turbines on an average night, or 4 on a good and windy one. Jiminy Peak would get enough power from their 1.5 MW turbine at full chooch to run 2000+ HP of equipment, which is more than their entire compressor room draws.


Also not thinking to cover all the snow making just enough to add more snow making.


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## bigbob (Aug 11, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Yeah there could be power limitations into the area with GMP. I know that is one reason they continue to rent a lot of air.
> 
> The 30' Impulses started as demos to replace the No Logics that were in the same place. Guess they kept them. The piles under them were nearly as tall as the towers themselves on that last push this year, far far larger than the K3000s higher up. I just wish they would do a lot more of them. In pains me to see their crews hoof around all those rats, K guns and hose all winter.


No Logic, love that. I do not see many Sno Logic equipment on other New England ski slopes. Does Powdr from Utah have some money invested in the US branch of Sno Logic? Most of the other areas have the HKD equipment lining the slopes.
 Funny how VT banned billboards years ago, but has no problem allowing hay fields to be filled with solar panels!


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## cdskier (Aug 11, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Funny how VT banned billboards years ago, but has no problem allowing hay fields to be filled with solar panels!


This may be the wine talking...but I have absolutely no idea what one has to do with the other.


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## SkiNewEngland.net (Aug 11, 2022)

urungus said:


> FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation.  Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?


On paper, but not physics.  Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating.  When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate.  The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.


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## jaytrem (Aug 11, 2022)

SkiNewEngland.net said:


> On paper, but not physics.  Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating.  When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate.  The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.


They're hooked up to the grid, so it doesn't really matter when they generate. Not like excess gets dumped.  If there happens to be excess in the area the can fill the giant battery that is Bear Swamp Reservoir.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2022)

SkiNewEngland.net said:


> On paper, but not physics.  Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating.  When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate.  The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.


Which would only matter if they were not hooked up to the grid.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> They're hooked up to the grid, so it doesn't really matter when they generate. Not like excess gets dumped.  If there happens to be excess in the area the can fill the giant battery that is Bear Swamp Reservoir.


Love the bear swamp mention, pumped storage is the future of US energy.


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## IceEidolon (Aug 11, 2022)

Pumped storage has some of the same geographical limitations as hydroelectric, unfortunately - you need a pretty big elevation drop with space up top and space (or a huge lake) at the bottom. Plus, you're typically going to have a stressed ecosystem because the water won't stay in place. Pumped storage is good where it's viable, but not a panacea and the places you can build it are kind of limited.

Bear Creek I believe brings in a substantial amount of generation capacity for the winter, though I don't recall if that's because they can't get enough electricity (they're 99% fan guns, 1% sticks with onboard compressors) or if it's so they can run through any curtailment or outage. Of course those gensets aren't renewable either, but they're the only place I know of that can run entirely off-grid. 

It would be interesting to see a resort hook up onsite renewables so they could push through a power curtailment with a compressor and a couple pumps still on, for example, or to add more transfer pump capacity at a remote location rather than running miles of new wire.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2022)

Graduate level engineer here with 17 years in the hydro industry. Overhauled bear swamp either two or three times, rocky mountain twice and Ludington once. Consulted on countless hydro overhauls in canada and the US for the last decade. If our society is serious about converting to wind and solar, pumped storage is the path forward.

And bullshit on the geographic limitations. Mankind has cut the top off of countless mountains to dig coal, we can build ponds on the top of hills if we choose a green future.


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## IceEidolon (Aug 11, 2022)

Pumped storage is part of the way forward, certainly. Like cereal, it's part of this renewable breakfast.


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## SkiNewEngland.net (Aug 12, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> They're hooked up to the grid, so it doesn't really matter when they generate. Not like excess gets dumped.  If there happens to be excess in the area the can fill the giant battery that is Bear Swamp Reservoir.


Correct, their surplus exports during the warmer months feed back into the grid and power the local community at the time of generation.

They do not own Bear Swamp, though, so their spring/summer/fall surplus electricity is not held in the reservoir as reserve water for Berkshire East's future electric consumption.  Even if there was a storage agreement and the surplus power was literally sent there, there would be significant energy loss between the mountain, converting from distribution to transmission voltage, pumping water into the upper reservoir, then reversing that flow at times of snowmaking.

Winter snowmaking in New England is largely reliant on fossil fuels and nuclear.  Summertime solar generation offsets it on paper.


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## jaytrem (Aug 12, 2022)

SkiNewEngland.net said:


> Correct, their surplus exports during the warmer months feed back into the grid and power the local community at the time of generation.
> 
> They do not own Bear Swamp, though, so their spring/summer/fall surplus electricity is not held in the reservoir as reserve water for Berkshire East's future electric consumption.  Even if there was a storage agreement and the surplus power was literally sent there, there would be significant energy loss between the mountain, converting from distribution to transmission voltage, pumping water into the upper reservoir, then reversing that flow at times of snowmaking.
> 
> Winter snowmaking in New England is largely reliant on fossil fuels and nuclear.  Summertime solar generation offsets it on paper.


Who gives a shit how it works?  Either they generate more than they use or they don't.  Splitting hairs nonsense.

Question, are you Rocket/Threec?


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## 2Planker (Aug 12, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Who gives a shit how it works?  Either they generate more than they use or they don't.  Splitting hairs nonsense.
> 
> Question, are you Rocket/Threec?


AGREE 100 %   In NE you only have 8-9 hours of daylight in the middle of winter But in the summer it is almost double that.

 My buddy's  house is 100% solar for elec & heat/AC.  Combo Radiant Floor and Forced Hot Air
Hooked up to the grid,  he earns $3,000+ credit April-Oct, then basically uses that up all winter.
Cost about $25-$30K to install  https://smartflower.com/


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## Newpylong (Aug 12, 2022)

Wind would be a non-starter in VT for Killington on USFS land or high altitude terrain. Solar could certainly help offset (over the course of the year) their winter utilization, but they would need a hell of a lot of it. Not sure what there is for underutilized owned land for that, probably not much. Places like Jiminy Peak and Berkshire East use a fraction of the kWh that Killington uses, so it's far easier for them to claim that their windmills entirely pay for snowmaking. Between all of the pumps and compressors Killington sits around 15,000 horsepower just in snowmaking alone on the electric side.


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## bigbob (Aug 12, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Wind would be a non-starter in VT for Killington on USFS land or high altitude terrain. Solar could certainly help offset (over the course of the year) their winter utilization, but they would need a hell of a lot of it. Not sure what there is for underutilized owned land for that, probably not much. Places like Jiminy Peak and Berkshire East use a fraction of the kWh that Killington uses, so it's far easier for them to claim that their windmills entirely pay for snowmaking. Between all of the pumps and compressors Killington sits around 15,000 horsepower just in snowmaking alone on the electric side.


Killington is located in the Calvin Coolage State forest land or private land as I recall.


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## joshua segal (Aug 12, 2022)

Not sure why all the Killington discussion is on this thread, but as long as it is: Isn't that Killington's solar farm on the Northside of Rt. 4 by the Skyeship Base?


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## crystalmountainskier (Aug 12, 2022)

machski said:


> The current learning Quad going in at Attitash did not require Forest Service approval since it does not cross Forest Service land (same reason Flying Yankee was strung up in the LBO era).


Not correct. https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=61352


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## machski (Aug 14, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Not correct. https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=61352


Ok, I stand corrected.  The summit terminus does just touch the WMNF boundary.  The balance of the line does not.  And since they were replacing really two lifts which with the Double Double configuration was a wider span than the replacement lift, this was about as much a clear breakaway layup as you can get.  Though Vail sea to have navigated the process rather easily for the Summit Express coming next year.  That had been a big part of past ownership excuses as to why this hadn't happened yet.


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## Newpylong (Aug 14, 2022)

I think it was exactly that, an excuse (for both ASC and Peak.) They may have unnofficially made inquiries but there never was a serious attempt to even see if it would be feasible. They just did not want to put the money into the place on that lift despite their entire clientele screaming for it.


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## drjeff (Aug 14, 2022)

The heavy lift copter will apparently be at Mount Snow Monday afternoon through Thursday flying concrete for the new lifts this week


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## thebigo (Aug 15, 2022)

Always questioned the forest service excuse for the flying yankee given the top terminal is on forest service land. Yankee was put in around the time of the hotel, suspect real estate may have played a more significant role. 

If the attitash summit quad actually happens and they actually operate the lift, it will be the first positive thing vail has done for NH skiing. Doesnt begin to correct the damage they have done to their other properties but a step in the right direction. The Attitash side should be fun midweek with a high speed, may even break my boycott to check it out for a day if in the area.


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## Newpylong (Aug 15, 2022)

I love Attitash, but it rides broken with that summit Triple for sure.


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## Newpylong (Aug 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The heavy lift copter will apparently be at Mount Snow Monday afternoon through Thursday flying concrete for the new lifts this week


Sounds like someone needs to an excuse to go to VT and get some video lol.


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## drjeff (Aug 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Sounds like someone needs to an excuse to go to VT and get some video lol.


Wish I could. Have to play the role of chaperone and BBQ pit master at my house in CT today for a party my 16yr old son his having this afternoon, then that work thing gets in the way the rest of the week!

Hoping one of my neighbors, who is up at his condo there now (about 100 yards from mine) gets a few pictures and sends them to me. If he does, I will certainly post them!


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 15, 2022)

Or hopefully Vail posts a video online like they did for Stowe...


Thsts probably too much to ask.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 15, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Always questioned the forest service excuse for the flying yankee given the top terminal is on forest service land. Yankee was put in around the time of the hotel, suspect real estate may have played a more significant role.
> 
> If the attitash summit quad actually happens and they actually operate the lift, it will be the first positive thing vail has done for NH skiing. Doesnt begin to correct the damage they have done to their other properties but a step in the right direction. The Attitash side should be fun midweek with a high speed, may even break my boycott to check it out for a day if in the area.



After the new Attitash lift goes in, I'll probably start buying 2 or 3 day passes a year.  One for Tash and a couple for Cat.  

I don't see myself ever going back to full Epic short of massive improvements in how they operate.  Basically I want to see a product that's better than what Peak provided.


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## Newpylong (Aug 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Wish I could. Have to play the role of chaperone and BBQ pit master at my house in CT today for a party my 16yr old son his having this afternoon, then that work thing gets in the way the rest of the week!
> 
> Hoping one of my neighbors, who is up at his condo there now (about 100 yards from mine) gets a few pictures and sends them to me. If he does, I will certainly post them!


Hopefully the mountain starts to cover it more now than the fun part is starting. 2 lifts and a bunch of snowmaking for Sundance area... they should be all over it. But it is Vail, that one GM video was awkward at best...


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## MikeDeJ (Aug 15, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Hopefully the mountain starts to cover it more now than the fun part is starting. 2 lifts and a bunch of snowmaking for Sundance area... they should be all over it. But it is Vail, that one GM video was awkward at best...


It was interesting watching how quick they ran up the concrete.  Each trip was about 2-3 minutes.  Roughly 1 yard.   They need to take around 360 trips over 3 days


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## MikeDeJ (Aug 15, 2022)

I have video have to cut it down to post


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## Newpylong (Aug 16, 2022)

Sweet!

Considering how mellow both of those lift lines are I am surprised they went for helo instead of direct pour, must be a reason though.


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## MikeDeJ (Aug 16, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Sweet!
> 
> Considering how mellow both of those lift lines are I am surprised they went for helo instead of direct pour, must be a reason though.


I wonder if it has to do with less damage to forest service land.  Not driving 40-50 trucks up, no ramps to build etc?


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## drjeff (Aug 16, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Sweet!
> 
> Considering how mellow both of those lift lines are I am surprised they went for helo instead of direct pour, must be a reason though.


Guessing it's the speed of the process at the backbone of the decision.  Even with the copter still sounds like from what I heard that this is close to a 3.5 day job weather permitting to get all the concrete flown to the sites and into the forms. Guessing with having to likely "pull" the concrete trucks with a bulldozer or some other large construction vehicle to many of the tower/terminal locations that it would of been a much slower process that way.  Additionally, while I am not sure where exactly the plant(s) is/are that they're getting the concrete from are located, if the trucks are having to travel route 9 from either the Brattleboro or Bennington side to get to Mount Snow, there are lenghty areas of construction with often delays both ways (the compete take down of Route 9 to the dirt level and rebuilding/repaving of it for most of the Wlmingtton to Brattleboro distance and then some blasting and widening work as to start to climb up and out of Bennington, so the travel time from the plant to the mountain and then up the mountain may also be a bit of a variable if they were to do it that way as well


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## RichT (Aug 16, 2022)

Using the Helo is much faster, but a whole lot more fuel. Probably trucking it would be way more costly though (Time + fuel).


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## Newpylong (Aug 16, 2022)

Trucking can be faster if access to the footings is no issue. That is a big IF, especially in Vermont. 8 yards of concrete per truck (reduced based on terrain), roughly 3-4 yards needed per form. Each truck usually can knock out two footings per load. The helo bucket holds 1 yard roughly. 4 trips per form.

The nearest Carrol concrete mixing plant is in Keene, that is quite the trip. They put a retardant in for trips that long, and then the truck has to sit at the base and wait for 1 of 2 buckets (usually) to come and load up.

There are not many locations on either of those liftline that would require having a dozer secure the concrete truck. We had to do that with our lift. Usually you see a mix of direct pours for the easier to get at locations, and helos for the tough stuff. If cost is no issue, it certainly is far easier on both the staff and environment to use the helo though.


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## mbedle (Aug 16, 2022)

Not exactly the same business, but an interesting change to their business model is occurring at Six Flag parks. Discounted tickets to much and filling our parks is not the right philosophy!!! 









						Six Flags CEO plans to raise prices, says parks turned into 'day care center for teenagers'
					

The company's new strategy is meant to keep "rowdy" teenagers from running amok.




					www.fox7austin.com


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## bigbob (Aug 16, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Trucking can be faster if access to the footings is no issue. That is a big IF, especially in Vermont. 8 yards of concrete per truck (reduced based on terrain), roughly 3-4 yards needed per form. Each truck usually can knock out two footings per load. The helo bucket holds 1 yard roughly. 4 trips per form.
> 
> The nearest Carrol concrete mixing plant is in Keene, that is quite the trip. They put a retardant in for trips that long, and then the truck has to sit at the base and wait for 1 of 2 buckets (usually) to come and load up.
> 
> There are not many locations on either of those liftline that would require having a dozer secure the concrete truck. We had to do that with our lift. Usually you see a mix of direct pours for the easier to get at locations, and helos for the tough stuff. If cost is no issue, it certainly is far easier on both the staff and environment to use the helo though.


What about this company, may be closer.









						21st Century Concrete
					

We are a prominent supplier of ready-mix concrete, asphalt, sand and gravel, crushed stone, mulch, and top soil with over 25 locations in New York State, Massachusetts and Connecticut.




					21centuryconcrete.com


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 16, 2022)

Trucks are Carrol Concrete.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 19, 2022)

I was talking about Vail in nh over some beers last night with a friend. We both endured the epic failure that was last year.

We both agreed that raising the base pay to 20 hourly will solve a lot of problems for day to day operations and that they may even poach labor from competing resorts. 
The big wild card is what they end up paying people higher up the chain. I think they've probably scared off a lot of local talent and if they don't have the same competitive pay for those jobs then problems could continue. 
I do have a shred of hope that baseline operations get somewhat normal again, crotched goes back to 7 days, wildcat possibly skiing t2b by xmas ect...

One things for sure is they're gonna sell truckloads of passes, cram the mtns on weekends and extract as much money as possible


----------



## thebigo (Aug 19, 2022)

your optimism is admirable, open jobs at crotched include 'Senior Manager of Resort Operations' at '$63,900 - $76,700'






						Crotched Mountain Jobs: Explore. Grow. Belong.
					

Receive $20/hr. starting wage and perks/benefits that allow you to discover a passion for the outdoors. With 40+ resorts, you can join for a season or stay for a career.




					jobs.vailresortscareers.com
				




edit - and wildcat top to bottom by Christmas as a new baseline summarizes Vail's NH operations.


----------



## Edd (Aug 19, 2022)

thebigo said:


> your optimism is admirable, open jobs at crotched include 'Senior Manager of Resort Operations' at '$63,900 - $76,700'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, they need to consult a map. Crotched is 1:15 from the seacoast, never mind Manchester and Nashua.


----------



## chuckstah (Aug 19, 2022)

Old Crotched double chairs to be sold at auction if any one is looking for a wood slat chair. They look pretty beat. 









						Crotched Mountain Chair sale | Powered by Givergy
					

Bid on exclusive money can't buy items & experiences with Vail Resorts Management Company - EpicPromise Foundation. Enter into one of our charity auct




					givergy.us


----------



## thebigo (Aug 19, 2022)

What lift is that chair from? It is not west, is that the old valley double? Have they been sitting in the woods for 20 years?


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## chuckstah (Aug 19, 2022)

thebigo said:


> What lift is that chair from? It is not west, is that the old valley double? Have they been sitting in the woods for 20 years?


The consensus is they are from Crotched East, but I really have no clue. And yes, I'm sure they've been in the woods or the boneyard for 20 years plus


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2022)

Honestly, considering the myriad of issues they had—that they did not have enough staff to open the lifts or run seven days a week—as much as I’m for charity getting the house in order is the priority. Customers want the place open and running before buying rusted chairs they hauled out of the woods.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2022)

Is the EpicPromise Foundation Rob's family charity?  Would be amusing if so


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## thebigo (Aug 19, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> The consensus is they are from Crotched East, but I really have no clue. And yes, I'm sure they've been in the woods or the boneyard for 20 years plus


They don't own crotched east and that chair last ran 30 years ago, seats in that picture are wood. Feel like I would have seen a pile of chairs in the woods unless they were off FF towards the condos.

There was a double where the fixed quad is now. Probably put the chairs in storage early 2000s when the quad went in.


----------



## joshua segal (Aug 20, 2022)

I remember that style of chair from the old Crotched East Double.  Https://newenglandskihistory.com shows that it was sold to Sky Tran following the close of the Crotched complex in 1990.

Others have suggested that the chairs were from the double that was replaced by the Valley Quad.  That lift was originally a Hall bubble chair.  I do not remember those chairs as having had wood seats, but I only rode that double on one day in 1976.

So, it is one of the two, but I am not sure which.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 20, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I remember that style of chair from the old Crotched East Double.  Https://newenglandskihistory.com shows that it was sold to Sky Tran following the close of the Crotched complex in 1990.
> 
> Others have suggested that the chairs were from the double that was replaced by the Valley Quad.  That lift was originally a Hall bubble chair.  I do not remember those chairs as having had wood seats, but I only rode that double on one day in 1976.
> 
> So, it is one of the two, but I am not sure which.


Joshua, you are a tremendous asset to eastern skiing, why do you continue to work for vail?


----------



## joshua segal (Aug 21, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Joshua, you are a tremendous asset to eastern skiing, why do you continue to work for vail?


Look for a PM on SJ.


----------



## catskillman (Aug 21, 2022)

7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 | Compass
					

7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 is a mixed use property not currently listed. This is a 6-bed, 5-bath, 6,152 sqft property.



					www.compass.com
				




Vail just bought this for $2.5 Mil.  To be used for visiting Vail executives.....

(posted also on the Hunter thread.)


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## ctdubl07 (Aug 21, 2022)

Heads up on the online auction for the chairs. My kids sorely wanted the golden chair from recent Sundance replacement auction at MS. I was half cocktailed on a boat in Keys when I bid last minute….assumed it was a proxy bid auction but it was a straight bid platform. Ended up paying $1K over necessary but F-it, hopefully it goes to Valley people.


----------



## Hawk (Aug 22, 2022)

Yikes.  That is a ton of money for a chair.
I paid $250 for my Valley House double chair at Sugarbush.  But it is Vail afterall.  $$$$   ;-)


----------



## drjeff (Aug 22, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Yikes.  That is a ton of money for a chair.
> I paid $250 for my Valley House double chair at Sugarbush.  But it is Vail afterall.  $$$$   ;-)


Honestly the way they did the chair auction at Mount Snow, it was all market driven. If you wanted a specific chair you could bid on it while the auction was open. If you didn't care what number chair you got, you could generic bid for one.

If I recall correctly, this highest bid, for one of the Golden chairs, was well over $1000, however many of the random numbered chairs that didn't have anyone specifically bidding on that number, went for the minimum bid, which I think was $150.

I know that 11yrs ago when they put the Bluebird in and they sold off triples from the Summit Local and Quads from the new chairs they hung on the Grand Summit, I believe I paid $200 or maybe $250 a piece, for the triple and quad that I have in my backyard now


----------



## Hawk (Aug 22, 2022)

Sugarbush was first come, first serve.  Win put out an email and they filled the orders based on when they got the response.  THe VH chairs were vintage wood slats and the one I got was in very good condition.  I pulled them off, sanded and painted them Vermont Green and replace the bolts with stainless carrage bolts.  It looks great on my deck.  I could not fit a quad and quads are newer and do not have the old look or nostelgia.


----------



## RichT (Aug 26, 2022)

Years ago when Hunter took down the old "Z" lift I went over there with my trailer. Meet a guy by the snowmaking shop and he told me to go over to the west side to pick one out. I picked two of them.


----------



## 180 (Aug 26, 2022)

RichT said:


> Years ago when Hunter took down the old "Z" lift I went over there with my trailer. Meet a guy by the snowmaking shop and he told me to go over to the west side to pick one out. I picked two of them.


I have one Z and one Y


----------



## machski (Aug 26, 2022)

Well, I guess the Cat is getting new chairs for the Quad.  They are auctioning 43 of the old ones off September 18-19.









						Wildcat Chair sale | Powered by Givergy
					

Bid on exclusive money can't buy items & experiences with Vail Resorts Management Company - EpicPromise Foundation. Enter into one of our charity auct




					givergy.us


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, I guess the Cat is getting new chairs for the Quad.  They are auctioning 43 of the old ones off September 18-19.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...either that or they are just not going to have as many chairs on the lift.  You know they have to reduce all those crowds this season.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 27, 2022)

Hawk said:


> Sugarbush was first come, first serve.  Win put out an email and they filled the orders based on when they got the response.  THe VH chairs were vintage wood slats and the one I got was in very good condition.  I pulled them off, sanded and painted them Vermont Green and replace the bolts with stainless carrage bolts.  It looks great on my deck.  I could not fit a quad and quads are newer and do not have the old look or nostelgia.



Yup...I jumped on that when the e-mail came out back then. When I went to pick up the chair, they even let me pick a number if it wasn't reserved by someone already. I mentioned a couple different numbers and they managed to get me one of the ones I mentioned.


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## jaytrem (Aug 28, 2022)

My wife pointed out this place as we were heading down the shore today...









						Home
					






					www.epicchurchintl.org


----------



## drjeff (Aug 28, 2022)

Saw a stat on liftblog about the charity chair auctions that Vail has done thus far this year. To date, the charity auction sales of the old chairs across the country has generated around 650k for various local charities around the resorts having new installations this year.

Well we can certainly find fault (even myself ) with decisions Vail has made, this is a pretty good thing I would think we all can agree upon.  

New lifts get installed, folks get a really cool item from a sport they love to use around their residence, and local charities get funds to use and benefit the local communities.

Attached is a picture of my former Mount Snow Summit local triple and Grand Summit Express Quad chairs that went out of service 11yrs ago when they installed the Bluebird that now sit out by my pool.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Saw a stat on liftblog about the charity chair auctions that Vail has done thus far this year. To date, the charity auction sales of the old chairs across the country has generated around 650k for various local charities around the resorts having new installations this year.
> 
> Well we can certainly find fault (even myself ) with decisions Vail has made, this is a pretty good thing I would think we all can agree upon.
> 
> ...



I'd be interested to see a break-down of how much has gone to the "EpicPromise" foundation vs local charities. It seems the proceeds from some of their chair auctions at some resorts only go to EpicPromise, while at other resorts it goes to a combination of EpicPromise and local charities (unclear whether it is an even split or not). Money going to local charities is great...money going to EpicPromise is somewhat self-serving. The "Emergency Relief Grants" the foundation provides to employees are fine...but the educational grants to employees or dependents is something that many other companies offer their employees and dependents without setting up a separate charity to provide those funds. So this seems a bit like a way for Vail to get other people to donate money to cover things that Vail should just cover out of their own pocket if it is something they want to do for their employees.


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## cdskier (Aug 28, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> My wife pointed out this place as we were heading down the shore today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL. Is this visible from the GSP? I didn't notice it on my way north yesterday on the GSP coming home from the shore. Heading south to the shore I often take the Rt 9 bridge in Sayreville though.


----------



## jaytrem (Aug 28, 2022)

cdskier said:


> LOL. Is this visible from the GSP? I didn't notice it on my way north yesterday on the GSP coming home from the shore. Heading south to the shore I often take the Rt 9 bridge in Sayreville though.


You can see it from the GSP bridges both ways.  South is a better view.  Now we know where the money for all those new lifts is coming from.


----------



## RichT (Aug 30, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> My wife pointed out this place as we were heading down the shore today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, was where the old "Dutch Boys" paint building used to be.


----------



## FBGM (Aug 31, 2022)

Add Mount Snow to the Vail list of resorts looking for a director of mountain operations. Nothing like trying to fill that position few months before ski season with huge Capitol investment projects ongoing. Surly some cook or beverage manager will be bumped into that position


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## Cobbold (Aug 31, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Add Mount Snow to the Vail list of resorts looking for a director of mountain operations. Nothing like trying to fill that position few months before ski season with huge Capitol investment projects ongoing. Surly some cook or beverage manager will be bumped into that position


What happened to Dave moulton, he just posted an update on Facebook about two weeks ago?


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## FBGM (Aug 31, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> What happened to Dave moulton, he just posted an update on Facebook about two weeks ago?


No idea. Kinda surprised he stayed on with the Vail transition to begin with. There was some #2 guy under him for a while, odd ball dude. Not sure if he’s still around?


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## cdskier (Aug 31, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> What happened to Dave moulton, he just posted an update on Facebook about two weeks ago?


Very weird timing for sure. Dave's video was posted 8/18. The posting for his position says it was posted 8/23.


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## 2Planker (Aug 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Very weird timing for sure. Dave's video was posted 8/18. The posting for his position says it was posted 8/23.


Maybe they've run out of Food & Bev managers. So no one to promote to GM....


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Very weird timing for sure. Dave's video was posted 8/18. The posting for his position says it was posted 8/23.


All I will say is that all of you conspiracy theorists here are reading WAY too much into this.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 1, 2022)

drjeff said:


> All I will say is that all of you conspiracy theorists here are reading WAY too much into this.



My thoughts as well.  Nearly 20 years at Mount Snow and 20 years at Killington before that.... I don't know his exact age but dude has gotta be close to retirement....


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> My thoughts as well.  Nearly 20 years at Mount Snow and 20 years at Killington before that.... I don't know his exact age but dude has gotta be close to retirement....


You *might* be on to a very rational thought process there ss20.

*Might* be a great bookend to a long, highly respected career in the industry to get what is arguably the biggest, most significant lift installation season in Mount Snow’s history completed and then go on to an even more significant "job" as husband, father and many times over grandfather.

I will certainly look forward to getting some runs in with Dave this season both when he has his "work" coat on early season and then his "normal" coat on later in the season.

He has truly been incredibly generous with his vast knowledge of the mtn ops side of the industry with me for well over a decade, as well as putting up with some of my very "geeky" questions about operations things as well. He is truly an asset to the industry and someone who has treated myself, my wife, and my kids as well as one could ask. In addition to being very generous with his knowledge to now multiple generations of leaders and up and comers in the industry today as well


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 2, 2022)

Now which midwest F&B manager to fill his position?


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## tumbler (Sep 2, 2022)

I think there is a dentist that could come available if asked...


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## FBGM (Sep 2, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I think there is a dentist that could come available if asked...


Right? Does the tooth fairy there put his Vail hat on and chant Rob Katz praise to every incoming interview.


----------



## kendo (Sep 4, 2022)

kendo said:


> Bristol checks all the boxes for Vail acquisition.  Longtime owner/GM has been there since 1975 and purchased it outright in 1984 - likely ready to consider offers.  He also hired the current Vail Executive VP Mountain Ops / COO Rockies Region to his first ski industry job at Bristol Mtn.   Bristol owns the Roseland waterpark complex for summer biz to complement their on-mountain activities.  Continual investment in lifts & snowmaking has kept them in better shape (needing less capital infusion upon acquisition) than other western NY areas.  Typical Bristol skier has always been willing to pay higher lift and pass prices (season pass $935) for 1200' vert and HSQ's ... versus the local alternative Swain.  Gets a lot of locals from Roch's eastern suburbs and FLX region with higher income demographics...



Could we see a Bristol acquisition announcement before year end?  I'd bet yes...


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 5, 2022)

Yes Dave was great, got me in touch with B. Ryan a number of years ago when I needed some numbers crunched by the right people.


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## FBGM (Sep 5, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Yes Dave was great, got me in touch with B. Ryan a number of years ago when I needed some numbers crunched by the right people.


Wouldn’t trust B Ryan adding 2+2. Also never met someone with such an ego. Literally one of the most unpleasant people I’ve ever met in the ski biz.


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## machski (Sep 5, 2022)

Stowe bumping into $200 window rates (topping at $199 this year and supposedly already sold out two days in January and one in February).  Vail and BC own the most expensive, topping at $275 on peak holidays.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 5, 2022)

No one is paying that  they shouldn't even bother staffing the window on those days


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## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> No one is paying that  they shouldn't even bother staffing the window on those days


Exactly.  They might have had 10 tickets for sale at that price.  

“Buy your Epic Pass now!!!”


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## zyk (Sep 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  They might have had 10 tickets for sale at that price.
> 
> “Buy your Epic Pass now!!!”


I'm being spammed daily with those emails even though I told them where the Goomer shits...


----------



## cdskier (Sep 5, 2022)

zyk said:


> I'm being spammed daily with those emails even though I told them where the Goomer shits...


They've certainly been pretty aggressive the past week with sending out e-mails. I'm seeing e-mails about the pass deadline from them sent on 8/26, 8/29, 9/1, 9/2, 9/3, 9/4, and two today on 9/5.


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## drjeff (Sep 6, 2022)

cdskier said:


> They've certainly been pretty aggressive the past week with sending out e-mails. I'm seeing e-mails about the pass deadline from them sent on 8/26, 8/29, 9/1, 9/2, 9/3, 9/4, and two today on 9/5.




And yet we will still likely see some posts on various ski chatroom/social media sites about folks not being aware when the deadline date was....


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## machski (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> No one is paying that  they shouldn't even bother staffing the window on those days


Probably not and if you go online now to try to buy day tickets in advance, it pops up a comparison window to just the tickets and that cost vs an Epic Day Pass that is waaaayy lower for basically the same product except you need not worry about sell outs with an Epic Day Pass.  So given this new comparison pop up, I wonder exactly how many pure "day" tickets Vail will even sell?  Seems they are offering up a very obvious way around limited day tickets


----------



## mbedle (Sep 6, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably not and if you go online now to try to buy day tickets in advance, it pops up a comparison window to just the tickets and that cost vs an Epic Day Pass that is waaaayy lower for basically the same product except you need not worry about sell outs with an Epic Day Pass.  So given this new comparison pop up, I wonder exactly how many pure "day" tickets Vail will even sell?  Seems they are offering up a very obvious way around limited day tickets


While this is true now, Epic Day Passes will not be available during the season after they go off sale. Of course the popup might still be there to remind the customer to buy Epic Day Passes next season.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

zyk said:


> I'm being spammed daily with those emails even though I told them where the Goomer shits...


Me too


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## yeggous (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> No one is paying that  they shouldn't even bother staffing the window on those days


I don't think you understand how wealthy the Vail / Beaver Creek clientele is. We're talking about the private jet crowd.


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## 2Planker (Sep 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Me too



GM was "in a meeting"


yeggous said:


> I don't think you understand how wealthy the Vail / Beaver Creek clientele is. We're talking about the private jet crowd.


We  rent our house out for 1 week each year.  12/26 thru 1/1.  20K CA$H up front. 
The only question the guy ever asked was where could he land/park his Gulfstream 550

Last year from AT they "day tripped to NYC" cause the wifey craved the Chocolate Egg Cream from Old John's Diner
​


----------



## RichT (Sep 6, 2022)

How much did the passes go up? I have the Veterans pass and it stayed the same. $490


----------



## abc (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> No one is paying that  they shouldn't even bother staffing the window on those days


Not sure about the “no one” part. But it’s clearly stopping a lot of casual skiers from skiing at Vail properties. 

After all, Vail isn’t the only ski mountain around. Those who really want to ski in Vail property, they’re indeed better off buying season pass in advance. But for those  “fence sitters”, or those already got another pass, Vail’s high price only means we won’t be skiing in their mountains even once in the coming season. 

Vail doesn’t care if walk up customers entirely dry up. The  reality being, some customers don’t care to ski at Vail property enough to buy a pass. Those are the same customers who won’t be paying the $200/day ticket either. So the dislike are mutual. And Vail knows that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

abc said:


> Vail doesn’t care if walk up customers entirely dry up. The  reality being, some customers don’t care to ski at Vail property enough to buy a pass. Those are the same customers who won’t be paying the $200/day ticket either. So the dislike are mutual. And Vail knows that.


That's the play by Vail.  Daytrippers = fair weather fans who are unpredictable

Kill off the unpredictability and get a commitment to make more $$$$$.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

As has been discussed that's all great but how do you get new people into the sport?   They clearly don't care and those in charge, similar to mr big smile katz, will have cashed out long before the question has to be asked.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> As has been discussed that's all great but how do you get new people into the sport?   They clearly don't care and those in charge, similar to mr big smile katz, will have cashed out long before the question has to be asked.


Exactly


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 7, 2022)

BW GM is lobbying hard for experienced On Snow staff.
No season pass for the whole family anymore, but hey You're NOT working for Vail

MWV winter job fair - Lots of resorts there EXCEPT AT & WC.
I predict this season will be a huge ClusterFuck of sharing employees between the 2 resorts.  
That strategy certainly limited BOTH Snomaking & Grooming efforts last year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> MWV winter job fair - Lots of resorts there EXCEPT AT & WC.
> I predict this season will be a huge ClusterFuck of sharing employees between the 2 resorts.  I
> That strategy certainly limited BOTH Snomaking & Grooming last year.


Insanity is defined as doing the same thing twice and expecting different results.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> BW GM is lobbying hard for experienced On Snow staff.
> No season pass for the whole family anymore, but hey You're NOT working for Vail
> 
> MWV winter job fair - Lots of resorts there EXCEPT AT & WC.
> ...


Where did you read about not season passes for dependents? This is from their website:​ALL ASSOCIATES ENJOY AWESOME BENEFITS LIKE:​
Free alpine and Nordic skiing for you and your dependents (Single? Then pass along ski privileges to a friend!)


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 7, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Where did you read about not season passes for dependents? This is from their website:​ALL ASSOCIATES ENJOY AWESOME BENEFITS LIKE:​
> Free alpine and Nordic skiing for you and your dependents (Single? Then pass along ski privileges to a friend!)


Paid vs Volunteer was the way they attempted to explain it.....
Needless to say it did not go over well, and a bunch of folks just got up and walked out.
They are now trying to come to a reasonable agreement that will make both parties happy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Paid vs Volunteer was the way they attempted to explain it.....
> Needless to say it did not go over well, and a bunch of folks just got up and walked out.
> They are now trying to come to a reasonable agreement that will make both parties happy.


Paid vs. Volunteer as in......?


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly


Where do you think they are missing out on with trying to grow the sport? Vail obviously has a ton of data on what does and doesn't work to gain and retain skiers, so I am just wondering what you think they are not doing to grow it. We keep circling back to window rates being ridiculous and a problem with getting new people to try the sport. To be honest, I doubt any young person would just jump in a car and drive hours to a resort they no nothing about to try out skiing. The internet has a wealth of information, that most young people would use it to look into trying a new sport. Plus, I would venture to guess that most people that try skiing, do it with a friend or family member that is already into skiing. With Vail's Epic Day Pass you could ski in NH, PA and all the midwest areas for as low as $39 / day for 7 days. We haven't been able to ski Wildcat, Attitash and Sunapee at that price since the mid 90's. My guess is all the things that we think Vail should have continued to do (i.e., low window rates, school programs, customer appreciation days, ski club discounts, etc.) to grow the sport, Vail has already determined didn't actual result in growth. My guess is they determined that making the sport affordable for vacationing families, does grow the sport with return visits, kids getting into skiing and those kids growing up and doing the same thing with their kids.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Paid vs Volunteer was the way they attempted to explain it.....
> Needless to say it did not go over well, and a bunch of folks just got up and walked out.
> They are now trying to come to a reasonable agreement that will make both parties happy.


I did not know what you were talking about. What exactly is the "On Snow" staff?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 7, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Where do you think they are missing out on with trying to grow the sport? Vail obviously has a ton of data on what does and doesn't work to gain and retain skiers, so I am just wondering what you think they are not doing to grow it. We keep circling back to window rates being ridiculous and a problem with getting new people to try the sport. To be honest, I doubt any young person would just jump in a car and drive hours to a resort they no nothing about to try out skiing. The internet has a wealth of information, that most young people would use it to look into trying a new sport. Plus, I would venture to guess that most people that try skiing, do it with a friend or family member that is already into skiing. With Vail's Epic Day Pass you could ski in NH, PA and all the midwest areas for as low as $39 / day for 7 days. We haven't been able to ski Wildcat, Attitash and Sunapee at that price since the mid 90's. My guess is all the things that we think Vail should have continued to do (i.e., low window rates, school programs, customer appreciation days, ski club discounts, etc.) to grow the sport, Vail has already determined didn't actual result in growth. My guess is they determined that making the sport affordable for vacationing families, does grow the sport with return visits, kids getting into skiing and those kids growing up and doing the same thing with their kids.



i think vail is awful but i agree with your post. i see people bitch on facebook and i see hypey articles about the insane day price of skiing. but we live in an information age. anyone with half a brain will figure out that there are ways to lower the costs substantially. we can't complain about insane crowding in one breath and then decry vail for killing the sport in the other. it doesn't make sense. the cheap pass product causes people to go to their resorts in frickin droves.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 7, 2022)

mbedle said:


> I did not know what you were talking about. What exactly is the "On Snow" staff?


Come On ???   Does it really need to be explained ??

Patrol, Instructors, Lift Ops & Maint. are all On Snow Staff.
Burger flipper, shit bowl cleaner, chamber maid, and  secretary are not On Snow


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Come On ???   Does it really need to be explained ??
> 
> Patrol, Instructors, Lift Ops & Maint. are all On Snow Staff.
> Burger flipper, shit bowl cleaner, chamber maid, and  secretary are not On Snow


Okay, so the website must be wrong. They don't offer season passes to the dependents of any employee or just the ones that work on the snow?


----------



## cdskier (Sep 7, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Where do you think they are missing out on with trying to grow the sport? Vail obviously has a ton of data on what does and doesn't work to gain and retain skiers, so I am just wondering what you think they are not doing to grow it. We keep circling back to window rates being ridiculous and a problem with getting new people to try the sport. To be honest, I doubt any young person would just jump in a car and drive hours to a resort they no nothing about to try out skiing. The internet has a wealth of information, that most young people would use it to look into trying a new sport. Plus, I would venture to guess that most people that try skiing, do it with a friend or family member that is already into skiing. With Vail's Epic Day Pass you could ski in NH, PA and all the midwest areas for as low as $39 / day for 7 days. We haven't been able to ski Wildcat, Attitash and Sunapee at that price since the mid 90's. My guess is all the things that we think Vail should have continued to do (i.e., low window rates, school programs, customer appreciation days, ski club discounts, etc.) to grow the sport, Vail has already determined didn't actual result in growth. My guess is they determined that making the sport affordable for vacationing families, does grow the sport with return visits, kids getting into skiing and those kids growing up and doing the same thing with their kids.



I actually agree with a lot of this and have made some of these same points in the past. Between rentals, lessons, lift tickets, ski clothing, etc...skiing has never had a "cheap" entry point where a lot of random people would suddenly decide to do it by simply walking up to a ticket booth and buying some kind of "cheap" lift ticket. It has long been a sport where people are primarily introduced to it by friends/family. Even in college when we had some first timers want to try skiing, we still weren't paying window rates either. We knew how to get deals. With how accessible information is today (and with virtually everyone having internet access in the palm of their hands), there's really no excuse for even paying window rates. A little research and planning goes a long way.

And I also hate to say this, but if you're a first timer, you don't need to go to a big resort and spend money on high prices at those places anyway. There's plenty of smaller independent "feeder" hills still out there with deals that are great ways to enter the sport. Although as mentioned above, even some of Vail's smaller resorts can be skied relatively cheaply with a little advance planning.


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 8, 2022)

These reviews are amazing to read!








						Vail Resorts - Broomfield, CO
					

124 reviews of Vail Resorts "Vail Resorts is absolutely the worst company to their customers. They are currently charging me for something I had no idea I was being charged for and when I called to cancel the payment they refused. I talked to Managers and Supervisors about my issue and nothing...




					yelp.to


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 8, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Patrol, Ski Instructor
> Changes in NH Tax Law so any type of compensation is taxable, including your season pass(es)


Since there is no income tax in NH, how can this be relevant?


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 8, 2022)

I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing.  Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines.  Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.

If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.

Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson.  To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing.  Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines.  Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.
> 
> If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.
> 
> Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson.  To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.


True.  Add Burke, Bolton, Jay, MRG, and others.

You’re missing the bigger point though.  Vail doesn’t want to sell day tickets.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 9, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I agree with everyone that $300 day tickets are ridiculous, but here's the thing.  Weekends at Stowe feature long liftlines.  Now that we are past COVID restrictions, reservations aren't necessary, and the place is jam-packed with season ticket holders.
> 
> If you want a VT weekend experience, haven't got a season pass, and don't have the $$$ for Stowe, it's not far to Smugglers' and Pico is still not that crowded or pricy.
> 
> Stowe attracts a crowd that routinely tips an instructor $50 or more on a private lesson.  To these people $300 is like a tenth of that to you and me.



i think thats a pretty gross oversimplification of the financials of a stowe skier. especially now that its an epic pass resort that costs like 500 for unlimited access. maybe when it was a $2000 season pass that was sort of the situation, but its definitely not that now. 

as tb said, the point is vail wants to steer everyone who will ever visit any of their properties to a pre-paid pass product, hence pricing day-of tickets outrageously. they want to realize their main chunk of revenue every season before a single flake falls.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *As has been discussed that's all great but how do you get new people into the sport?*   They clearly don't care and those in charge, similar to mr big smile katz, will have cashed out long before the question has to be asked.



You don't.  That's been my #1 concern for a while now.  And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

mbedle said:


> *I doubt any young person would just jump in a car and drive hours to a resort they no nothing about to try out skiing. *



I worked at Stowe Ski School for years.  The above happened probably a hundred times every weekend all season long, just on my side of the mountain alone.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

cdskier said:


> And I also hate to say this, but *if you're a first timer, you don't need to go to a big resort and spend money on high prices at those places anyway. There's plenty of smaller independent "feeder" hills *still out there with deals that are great ways to enter the sport.



While this is clearly true, it's not realistic to how many (if not most) complete novices make their_ "let's try a ski vacation!"_ planning decisions.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *its an epic pass resort that costs like 500 for unlimited access. maybe when it was a $2000 season pass that was sort of the situation*, but its definitely not that now.



I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.

It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity.  For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol


----------



## cdskier (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.
> 
> It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity.  For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol


Deer Valley is owned by Alterra, not Vail. And even on the Ikon Full pass you only get 7 days at Deer Valley, so Alterra is at least trying to keep that a bit more exclusive (although I'm sure the DV people are complaining that Ikon gives any access at all).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

cdskier said:


> *Deer Valley is owned by Alterra, not Vail. And even on the Ikon Full pass you only get 7 days at Deer Valley*, so Alterra is at least trying to keep that a bit more exclusive (although I'm sure the DV people are complaining that Ikon gives any access at all).



It's the same issue though.  Also, Deer Valley is within an hour'ish drive of a metro population of something like > 1M people, Stowe isnt.  That's a rather large, _"only 7 days"_ population.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I worked at Stowe Ski School for years.  The above happened probably a hundred times every weekend all season long, just on my side of the mountain alone.


I can tell you that over the pass 5 or 6 years this does not happen 100s of times every weekend. Their ski school is a shell of what it use to be, especially on the adult side.

Edit - I will give you that there is a certain demographic that does this and they typically are flying to Stowe and overpriced tickets, rentals and lessons means nothing to them.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> You don't.  That's been my #1 concern for a while now.  And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.


How you do it is you get young adults to your resorts with cheap season passes, those young adults marry and have children that also turn into skiers. Those skiing kids ask their parents if a friend can come along on the yearly ski vacation and they turn into skiers. etc, etc, etc. Exposure at the young kid/adult stage is key to growing the business.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wonder how this shakes out for the formerly, "cachet" properties like Deer Valley & Stowe long-term.
> 
> It makes me wonder if they're killing some of their brand equity.  For both it's probably too new to know for sure, but anecdotally it sounds like some Deer Valley peeps aren't pleased with the new crowding & rif-raf. lol


It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand. The mix of clientele at Stowe is VERY different from the clientele that existed 5 years ago. To be honest, everything at Stowe is different since Vail bought the ski operations. I still go because my friends all live there, but its sad to see what it has become. Many days of one or two runs & done or off to the side country, over the past 5 years.


----------



## abc (Sep 9, 2022)

mbedle said:


> It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand.


The brand! 

Vail took some top tier mountains of their respective region and turn them into also-fans. Stowe, Hunter...

They also took some solid mid-tire mountains and drove it into the gutter: Wildcat.

They did glamorized some also-rans and some people love Vail for it.. Think Okemo

That’s THE BRAND


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> You don't.  That's been my #1 concern for a while now.  And good luck trying to model this, I think it will take years before the problem is evident.


Exactly.  It's all about the here and now.  Seems like they are saying fuck the future because SKIING AND SNOWBOARDING WON'T EXIST due to climate change.  Cash in now!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  It's all about the here and now. * Seems like they are saying fuck the future because SKIING AND SNOWBOARDING WON'T EXIST due to climate change. * Cash in now!



Vail is very political for sure (sometimes embarrassingly & tediously), but I dont think it's about Climate Change.  Most of the staunchest pushers of Climate Change & other political messages dont really believe it anyway, they just need to believe enough of their clientele does. 

 What I think Vail's behaviour is about is simply their being a publicly traded company which will always be under the gun each-and-every quarter to both increase profitability and profit margins.  That sort of strict numerical mandate isnt necessary in-line (and probably isnt) with your best ski experience.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 10, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Since there is no income tax in NH, how can this be relevant?


NH is 2nd home for many of us. Will be primary home in a couple years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> What I think Vail's behaviour is about is simply their being a publicly traded company which will always be under the gun each-and-every quarter to both increase profitability and profit margins.  That sort of strict numerical mandate isnt necessary in-line (and probably isnt) with your best ski experience.


Absolutely true.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

mbedle said:


> It absolutely is killing the Stowe brand. The mix of clientele at Stowe is VERY different from the clientele that existed 5 years ago. To be honest, everything at Stowe is different since Vail bought the ski operations. I still go because my friends all live there, but its sad to see what it has become. Many days of one or two runs & done or off to the side country, over the past 5 years.


What are you talking about?  The experience is EPIC!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

mbedle said:


> How you do it is you get young adults to your resorts with cheap season passes, those young adults marry and have children that also turn into skiers. Those skiing kids ask their parents if a friend can come along on the yearly ski vacation and they turn into skiers. etc, etc, etc. Exposure at the young kid/adult stage is key to growing the business.


As I said, the current mindset of the industry, for many reasons, is basically fuck the future and cash in NOW! 

Goodbye cheap learn to ski promos and cheap ski lessons for kids.  The industry thinks that the market has spoken:  we want discount season passes AT ALL costs.  Ski school is meant to cover the losses/costs of discount season passes.  Good for the established skier and rider, bad for families, bad for the 3-5 day crowd, bad for never-evers. 

But hey, they think that the market WANTS cheap season passes and the industry has admittedly created that beast.  Don't believe me? 









						How Multi-Resort Season Passes Have Affected Single Lift Ticket Sales - SnowBrains
					

Season Pass Sales According to the NSAA, the 2021-22 ski season saw a significant uptick in season passes sold. It wasn’t just the two big players of Epic and Ikon either. Ski areas from big to small from all over the country saw an increase. Additionally, other major players have emerged in the...




					snowbrains.com


----------



## JoeB-Z (Sep 11, 2022)

It's so far in the past as to be meaningless but Killington was a mill generating new skiers in the 1960's. Five days of lessons with equipment brought me from never ever to intermediate at age 8. Snowshed was packed with these programs all week. And it couldn't have been much money as my dad was cheap as hell. A totally different interest (and situation) in terms of developing skiers. I knew lower middle class kids who somehow learned how to ski with little parental support of any sort as teenagers. Dropped my Epic pass this year. It's not my sort of skiing experience.


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## snoseek (Sep 11, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> As I said, the current mindset of the industry, for many reasons, is basically fuck the future and cash in NOW!
> 
> Goodbye cheap learn to ski promos and cheap ski lessons for kids.  The industry thinks that the market has spoken:  we want discount season passes AT ALL costs.  Ski school is meant to cover the losses/costs of discount season passes.  Good for the established skier and rider, bad for families, bad for the 3-5 day crowd, bad for never-evers.
> 
> ...


As far as I'm concerned learning to ski should be cheap if not free.


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## ss20 (Sep 11, 2022)

snoseek said:


> As far as I'm concerned learning to ski should be cheap if not free.



Free rope tows and beginner Snowpine quad at Alta!  No ticket required!


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## IceEidolon (Sep 11, 2022)

Honestly if I owned one of the big chains, I'd be trying to open and run at a loss some feeder hills to grow long term participation. Basically copy the Big Snow layout with a minimum footprint, but more teaching terrain. And outdoors.

Now, convincing shareholders that these 10+ year payoffs are worth the effort and expense, especially when our competitors will see more participation too, is a nonstarter. It looks like the indoor ski operations might fill some of this role


----------



## urungus (Sep 11, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> How Multi-Resort Season Passes Have Affected Single Lift Ticket Sales - SnowBrains
> 
> 
> Season Pass Sales According to the NSAA, the 2021-22 ski season saw a significant uptick in season passes sold. It wasn’t just the two big players of Epic and Ikon either. Ski areas from big to small from all over the country saw an increase. Additionally, other major players have emerged in the...
> ...



Even as of last season, 37.3 % of visits were from single-day sales.  Kind of surprised it is still that high.  Wasn’t it mentioned a couple weeks ago that Vails proportion of single day tickets across all their properties is something like 4 % ?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

urungus said:


> Even as of last season, 37.3 % of visits were from single-day sales.  Kind of surprised it is still that high.  Wasn’t it mentioned a couple weeks ago that Vails proportion of single day tickets across all their properties is something like 4 % ?


Well, that is industry-wide.  So if you take out the Vail and IKON resorts you still have a lot of independent resorts.  I would think that a lot of the smaller places still do a lot of day tickets.  Vail is the one that has been doing the "no day ticket sales" approach the longest, so it shows that the rest of the market has yet to catch up.  That's at least how I interpret it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Honestly if I owned one of the big chains, I'd be trying to open and run at a loss some feeder hills to grow long term participation. Basically copy the Big Snow layout with a minimum footprint, but more teaching terrain. And outdoors.
> 
> Now, convincing shareholders that these 10+ year payoffs are worth the effort and expense, especially when our competitors will see more participation too, is a nonstarter. It looks like the indoor ski operations might fill some of this role


The interesting thing is that Vail does own a fair number of these sorts of places, but this last season they cut back on operations (like at Crotched) and still embraced the Epic Season pass model.


----------



## SLyardsale (Sep 11, 2022)

snoseek said:


> As far as I'm concerned learning to ski should be cheap if not free.


The dentist from Mt Snow forgets that Peak offered a lower Mt lift ticket at significant discount - and it made sense and was a completely logical way of introducing those kid's friends you brought with you on vacation or the neighbors you tried to coax into the sport.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 11, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> As has been discussed that's all great but how do you get new people into the sport?   They clearly don't care and those in charge, similar to mr big smile katz, will have cashed out long before the question has to be asked.


Indeed. Why bother? Climate change is happening. Grab the cash now


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 11, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Indeed. Why bother? Climate change is happening. Grab the cash now


Always amazed me How short sighted they are… if they believe in Climate Change why aren’t they working on expanding summer operations? Instead they shut down everything at Attitash while meanwhile Cranmore is thriving.


----------



## RichT (Sep 12, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Always amazed me How short sighted they are… if they believe in Climate Change why aren’t they working on expanding summer operations? Instead they shut down everything at Attitash while meanwhile Cranmore is thriving.


Hunter too.............less than two hours from NYC!


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## raisingarizona (Sep 12, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Always amazed me How short sighted they are… if they believe in Climate Change why aren’t they working on expanding summer operations? Instead they shut down everything at Attitash while meanwhile Cranmore is thriving.


It must not be profitable enough to make it worth the effort I guess.

These companies have to be looking at the predictions though.


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## raisingarizona (Sep 12, 2022)

I wonder, are the ski areas Vail I’d dumping the most money in to new lifts and infrastructure in the more safe zones for predicted climate change?


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## Newpylong (Sep 12, 2022)

If there is one good thing about Vail's dominance in the East is the smaller to medium size hills are thriving, many of which were on borderline life support. No longer are people seeking out the learning programs at the big hills in abundance unless they are staying there anyway.


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## thebigo (Sep 12, 2022)

Tuckerbrook is a perfect learning area, used to be free but it is a $53 day ticket now, $43 advance purchase. Have been watching my sister try to get her kids into skiing on a very limited budget and it is a struggle. She bought some learn to ski package at mcintyre last year and the kids fell in love with it. Tuckerbook free midweek for NH kids would possibly be enough to hook those two kids for life.


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## tumbler (Sep 12, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> It must not be profitable enough to make it worth the effort I guess.
> 
> These companies have to be looking at the predictions though.


Top secret cloud seeding venture with the government.  In one of the docs found at maralago.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I wonder, are the ski areas Vail I’d dumping the most money in to new lifts and infrastructure in the more safe zones for predicted climate change?


Mt Snow vs Wildcat...


----------



## NYDB (Sep 12, 2022)

if Vail believes it's happening, the east is fucked.  doesn't matter how north you go.  you need elevation.  So their Colorado properties are a safer bet for them.


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## snoseek (Sep 12, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Tuckerbrook is a perfect learning area, used to be free but it is a $53 day ticket now, $43 advance purchase. Have been watching my sister try to get her kids into skiing on a very limited budget and it is a struggle. She bought some learn to ski package at mcintyre last year and the kids fell in love with it. Tuckerbook free midweek for NH kids would possibly be enough to hook those two kids for life.


damn It used to be 20 bucks which was a great deal for novices. 53 is STEEP!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Always amazed me How short sighted they are… if they believe in Climate Change why aren’t they working on expanding summer operations? Instead they shut down everything at Attitash while meanwhile Cranmore is thriving.


Because summer is not EPIC.


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## Edd (Sep 12, 2022)

Riding zip lines and mountain coasters isn’t an addictive skill the same way skiing is. Also, no idea how many people want to book lodging at ski areas in the summer for such things. 

Which brings us to the Epic Pass, which is Vail’s favorite thing, and it doesn’t apply cleanly to summer activities. 

The caveat there is mountain biking, the success rate of which seems very hit or miss throughout the ski industry.


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## Mum skier (Sep 12, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> It must not be profitable enough to make it worth the effort I guess.
> 
> These companies have to be looking at the predictions though.



we did a day at Cranmore this summer, it was jam packed. Adults hated it but kids loved it. They were short staffed.  The rides at Attitash look so much better than the offerings at Cranmore, I can’t believe it wouldn’t make money. So many families spend time in the White Mountains in summer. We have a deal, we do one adult day (hiking or climbing) then one kid choice day. Other than Whalestale and Cranmore there are limited options for tweens who are past the Santa village type park. 
I think Attitash could make a killing on their summer offerings if they tried to.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 12, 2022)

the folks in Broomfield are like Attinocash


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## eatskisleep (Sep 12, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> we did a day at Cranmore this summer, it was jam packed. Adults hated it but kids loved it. They were short staffed.  The rides at Attitash look so much better than the offerings at Cranmore, I can’t believe it wouldn’t make money. So many families spend time in the White Mountains in summer. We have a deal, we do one adult day (hiking or climbing) then one kid choice day. Other than Whalestale and Cranmore there are limited options for tweens who are past the Santa village type park.
> I think Attitash could make a killing on their summer offerings if they tried to.


Attitash was always mobbed in the summer. The alpine slides were a big money maker. Mountain biking is becoming increasingly popular, I used to ride there all the time. It is low budget to run, but great way to bring in a crowd during the summer.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2022)

It's also a great way to offer more (closer to) 4 season employment.  All my life the trend in ski towns has been what can be done to make these places more of a four season destination.  That helps to both drive more tourist revenue into these towns during more days of the year AND retain workforce.  Vail seems intent on reversing the trend in the Northeast and say screw it, we will roll up the carpets come spring and just import the help.  You lose continuity doing this and service and operations suffer in the winter.  The locals resent you and go work for other local businesses that can offer a bit more year round stability.  Or move and go work for the competition. 

But I suppose if they keep offering a cheap enough product while also monopolizing markets, it works just fine for them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 13, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> we did a day at Cranmore this summer, it was jam packed. Adults hated it but kids loved it. They were short staffed.  The rides at Attitash look so much better than the offerings at Cranmore, I can’t believe it wouldn’t make money. So many families spend time in the White Mountains in summer. We have a deal, we do one adult day (hiking or climbing) then one kid choice day. Other than Whalestale and Cranmore there are limited options for tweens who are past the Santa village type park.
> I think Attitash could make a killing on their summer offerings if they tried to.


They used to have lots of events and activities.  I’m talking 20-30 years ago. But now it’s all Epic Fail.


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## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> we did a day at Cranmore this summer, it was jam packed. Adults hated it but kids loved it. They were short staffed.  The rides at Attitash look so much better than the offerings at Cranmore, I can’t believe it wouldn’t make money. So many families spend time in the White Mountains in summer. We have a deal, we do one adult day (hiking or climbing) then one kid choice day. Other than Whalestale and Cranmore there are limited options for tweens who are past the Santa village type park.
> I think Attitash could make a killing on their summer offerings if they tried to.


Other options - 
Zip lines at BW, the adventure place in lincoln(ropes course and zip lining).


----------



## RichT (Sep 13, 2022)

Smugglers Notch is still doing it! Goodtime Charlie's still there. We spent two winter and one summer weeks back when my daughter was 7 (great ski school) she's 27 now living in Colorado.


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## RH29 (Sep 13, 2022)

Sign the Petition
					

Bring back Home Fries at Attitash and other Vail Resorts




					www.change.org
				




Pretty rare that anything comes from these petitions, but it's worth a shot. Get the word out.


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## skiur (Sep 13, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Bring back Home Fries at Attitash and other Vail Resorts
> ...


Yes! Priorities first.  Who cares about not having snowmakers, as long as they have home fry's!


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2022)

a friend texted me a screenshot from the epicliftlines page of someones social media post claiming that a disgruntled employee of a vail owned sports shop in Breckenridge marked everything down 90% and sold out the store on his last day working. lol


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## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a friend texted me a screenshot from the epicliftlines page of someones social media post claiming that a disgruntled employee of a vail owned sports shop in Breckenridge marked everything down 90% and sold out the store on his last day working. lol


Criminal act and probably will be prosecuted.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2022)

yeah that's some funny shit until you end up in the slammer just to one up Vail.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah that's some funny shit until you end up in the slammer just to one up Vail.


And Vail will 100% press charges if the story is true.  This is company which gets the police involved when it finds someone skiing with someone else's EPIC pass.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

Got an email today for a "no money down" and "no interest" offer for an EPIC pass. 

Is that a sign of the times or has this been offered for year's now & I've just never seen it?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Got an email today for a "no money down" and "no interest" offer for an EPIC pass.
> 
> Is that a sign of the times or has this been offered year's pass & I've never seen it?



i dont know if its been offered for epic pass but it certainly has been offered for ikon pass and tons of other medium large purchase things. its just affirm, which is a payment option lots of places across the internet. its treated as a small 0% personal loan and a direct draw from your checking account for a few months.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2022)

I believe this is year 2 for that with Epic.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> And Vail will 100% press charges if the story is true.  This is company which gets the police involved when it finds someone skiing with someone else's EPIC pass.


I'm not sure I disagree with that to be honest.  There are lots of reasons to hate Vail, but theft of services doesn't seem like one of them.  Especially when they are presumably "giving away" the pass to begin with.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

mbedle said:


> *How you do it is you get young adults to your resorts with cheap season passes*, those young adults marry and have children that also turn into skiers.



Nope.   The "young adults" never skier isn't generally dropping $600 or $800 in "cheap" season passes (which may not seem so cheap for a 22 year old).   They'll give it a whirl for 1 day or  a 2 day ski trip at most.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Always amazed me How short sighted they are…* if *they believe in Climate Change why aren’t they working on expanding summer operations? Instead they shut down everything at Attitash while meanwhile Cranmore is thriving.



"if"


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

snoseek said:


> As far as I'm concerned *learning to ski should be cheap if not free.*



Yeah, cheap makes solid business sense, but free not so much.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I wonder, are the ski areas Vail I’d dumping the most money in to new lifts and infrastructure in the more safe zones for predicted climate change?


Repeated comments like this are demonstrative of the fact you dont understand how slow the earth is predicted to warm from Global Warming (going with UN IPCC data), but the, _"there'll be no skiing"_ stuff is really dumb.   To be fair, you're not alone on this board, but it's absolutely absurd.  It's like a Salem Witch level of silliness.  Nevertheless, I'm 100% sure it's not going to crush Vail's 10-year Capital Expenditure modeling!

Not to mention the warming models have been wrong to the upside thus far for years now, so I see no reason to simply believe their current negative predictions & lamentations will be 100% correct in their worst-case scenario.  I'd also suggest that betting against the ingenuity of mankind to solve critical problems has generally been a catastrophic losing bet for thousands of years.  By 2050 the only fossil-fueled vehicles on the road will be a handful of curios & antiques as Solid State Battery technology obsoletes gasoline & many other alternative energy sources come to market, but I digress.

TL/DR:  Don't worry, be happy.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *I'm not sure I disagree with that to be honest. * There are lots of reasons to hate Vail, but theft of services doesn't seem like one of them.  Especially when they are presumably "giving away" the pass to begin with.


Neither do I, I didnt mean it that way if that's the way it came off, I just meant that that person's absolutely screwed if this really happened!


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Neither do I, I didnt mean it that way if that's the way it came off, I just mean that that person's absolutely screwed if this really happened!


100% risk, 0% reward (except for feeling like Robin Hood). Drop in the bucket to them but jail for you.


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 14, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Repeated comments like this are demonstrative of the fact you dont understand how slow the earth is predicted to warm from Global Warming (going with UN IPCC data), but the, _"there'll be no skiing"_ stuff is really dumb.   To be fair, you're not alone on this board, but it's absolutely absurd.  It's like a Salem Witch level of silliness.  Nevertheless, I'm 100% sure it's not going to crush Vail's 10-year Capital Expenditure modeling!
> 
> Not to mention the warming models have been wrong to the upside thus far for years now, so I see no reason to simply believe their current negative predictions & lamentations will be 100% correct in their worst-case scenario.  I'd also suggest that betting against the ingenuity of mankind to solve critical problems has generally been a catastrophic losing bet for thousands of years.  By 2050 the only fossil-fueled vehicles on the road will be a handful of curios & antiques as Solid State Battery technology obsoletes gasoline & many other alternative energy sources come to market, but I digress.
> 
> TL/DR:  Don't worry, be happy.


Depends on what your repayment period is for e.g. snowmaking upgrades. The first couple automated trails in the mid 90s (Hunter and Blue) were still rocking their original equipment 25 years later. The ex-Snowtime resorts in particular may not justify long term investment like, say, new pipe with a 40 year lifespan, new lodging, new lifts, new trails - rather, they might be forced to consolidate onto fewer trails with a shorter season if the average winter temperature rises by even a degree, or shift to SnowMagic style all weather equipment to ensure Christmas openings.

An alternate perspective is that they should get all the investment as soon as possible so as to get the benefits immediately and get the full useful lifespan of the installed equipment. So far, Vail hasn't done either.


----------



## abc (Sep 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a friend texted me a screenshot from the epicliftlines page of someones social media post claiming that a disgruntled employee of a vail owned sports shop in Breckenridge marked everything down 90% and sold out the store on his last day working. lol


Claimed, but I doubt it. 

Unless the store was manned by only 1 single employee.


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 16, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> "if"


Yes. Who knows with the way Vail acts.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 16, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Repeated comments like this are demonstrative of the fact you dont understand how slow the earth is predicted to warm from Global Warming (going with UN IPCC data), but the, _"there'll be no skiing"_ stuff is really dumb.   To be fair, you're not alone on this board, but it's absolutely absurd.  It's like a Salem Witch level of silliness.  Nevertheless, I'm 100% sure it's not going to crush Vail's 10-year Capital Expenditure modeling!


Correct.  Warming is slow when your time horizon is the next decade or two.  At the geological time scale however, the observed current warming is freakingly scary fast. And you have to differentiate global mean temperature increase versus local regionalized increases.  Land masses warm faster and snow covered regions even more because of snowcover loss feedback.  Global temperatures have increased by 1 degree C.  That does not seem much.   But Northern Vermont has warmed by 2 degrees C, and winters are now warmer by 3 degress (5.4 F).   Winters in Northern Quebec are 6C (10.8F) warmer than 50 years ago.  This is hard data, not model projections.



BenedictGomez said:


> Not to mention the warming models have been wrong to the upside thus far for years now,


Wrong. The ensemble mean of climate models has been remarkably good at predicting the average trend of warming over the past 60 years.   



BenedictGomez said:


> I'd also suggest that betting against the ingenuity of mankind to solve critical problems has generally been a catastrophic losing bet for thousands of years.  By 2050 the only fossil-fueled vehicles on the road will be a handful of curios & antiques as Solid State Battery technology obsoletes gasoline & many other alternative energy sources come to market, but I digress.



I tend to agree with this.  However, The energy transition will not be sufficient and some cheap carbon removal technology will also be needed to avoid some of the worst outcomes.  But I do have faith in mankind ingeniosity.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Sep 16, 2022)

Houses where I live weren't designed with too much AC built in...now..we are all putting in split systems to supplement it...
It was a pretty hot summer up here in Williston...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Correct.  Warming is slow when your time horizon is the next decade or two.  At the geological time scale however, the observed current warming is freakingly scary fast. And you have to differentiate global mean temperature increase versus local regionalized increases.  Land masses warm faster and snow covered regions even more because of snowcover loss feedback.  Global temperatures have increased by 1 degree C.  That does not seem much.   But Northern Vermont has warmed by 2 degrees C, and winters are now warmer by 3 degress (5.4 F).   Winters in Northern Quebec are 6C (10.8F) warmer than 50 years ago.  *This is hard data*, not model projections.



I'm fine with the above take other than the bolded bit, because _"hard data"_ in science (or finance, or anything frankly) based on laughably low 'N's is something that, in the immortal words of Shania Twain,_ "Dont Impress Me Much"._   Talk to me in about 400 years.  I'm completely convinced that if we were living through another Maunder Minimum our same politicians would be seeking billions of dollars & enacting punishing (and controlling) laws on business in order to save the planet from freezing.  It's been this way ever since I've breathed air.  The government where I grew up tried to terrify me as a child about both Acid Rain and Radon (not to mention indoctrination attempts in school).


----------



## mbedle (Sep 19, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm fine with the above take other than the bolded bit, because _"hard data"_ in science (or finance, or anything frankly) based on laughably low 'N's is something that, in the immortal words of Shania Twain,_ "Dont Impress Me Much"._   Talk to me in about 400 years.  I'm completely convinced that if we were living through another Maunder Minimum our same politicians would be seeking billions of dollars & enacting punishing (and controlling) laws on business in order to save the planet from freezing.  It's been this way ever since I've breathed air.  The government where I grew up tried to terrify me as a child about both Acid Rain and Radon (not to mention indoctrination attempts in school).


Wait, acid rain and radon were not a problem back in the 70's and 80's?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Wait, acid rain and radon were not a problem back in the 70's and 80's?



Technically, they're both still a problem today, but the herd has moved on to other fear-mongering, better corporate extortion grift, and self-righteous displays.   Guess nobody gives a **** about Tibet anymore either while we're at it, that herd moved on too.  They probably don't need to be "Free" anyway one can only presume.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 19, 2022)

When the ski areas pump out tons and tons of snow, does that heat or cool the earth? I'm thinking cool. 

Acid rain has been knocked back, I don't here of anyone pouring lime into ponds up north these days.

Radon seems to be a problem from houses being too tight, in the old days nothing could build up in the air...


----------



## urungus (Sep 19, 2022)

Actually North America and Europe have done a decent job combating acid rain, maybe that’s why you don’t hear about it as much










						What Did Happen to Acid Rain? (Nature Took Its Course)
					

Susan Goldhaber resurrected this long-forgotten issue, so let’s take another look. Having spent a good portion of my time at Brookhaven National Laboratory working on the National Acid Precipitation Assessment Program (NAPAP), I come with a certain amount of nostalgia. My disclaimer: since this...




					www.acsh.org
				













						Acid deposition in Asia: Emissions, deposition, and ecosystem effects
					

We review and synthesize the current state of knowledge regarding acid deposition and its environmental effects across Asia. The extent and magnitude …




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## 1dog (Sep 19, 2022)

Some cool tools:








						Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption
					

Electricity Maps is a live 24/7 visualization of where your electricity comes from and how much CO2 was emitted to produce it.




					app.electricitymaps.com
				












						Antarctic sea ice hits lowest minimum on record
					

Natural variability is probably the cause, although global warming could have a role.




					www.nature.com
				




batteries are not the answer ( they store energy created by coal, gas, hydro, etc.but not well and certainly not green)









						Video: Mining and Supply-Chain Implications of Green Energy | Manhattan Institute
					






					www.manhattan-institute.org
				




I purchased some Plug Power stock around $15 or so. Not because I think its a game changer, but the money being thrown around well, they will get some, and maybe a lot. They have a contract w Amazon to provide hydro-run robots for the distribution centers. Its cool, but basically takes more energy top separate the hydrogen from the oxygen than its worth - someday maybe. . . . .  but since it takes 200,000 gallons of water to clean enough cobalt for one car battery, never mind the lithium, nickel and all the other mining that's required. . . .  frack me any day of the week. 

I'll take the organics for now - rotted debris they call fossil fuel - quite the misnomer. . . . .


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## skiur (Sep 19, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Technically, they're both still a problem today, but the herd has moved on to other fear-mongering, better corporate extortion grift, and self-righteous displays.   Guess nobody gives a **** about Tibet anymore either while we're at it, that herd moved on too.  They probably don't need to be "Free" anyway one can only presume.


Britney griner was a huge thing a few months ago and she has already been forgotten by the herd.


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## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2022)

skiur said:


> Britney griner was a huge thing a few months ago and she has already been forgotten by the herd.


Biden is talking to her wife and i did see within the last week they are trying to negotiate for her and the other guy to be released.


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## skiur (Sep 20, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Biden is talking to her wife and i did see within the last week they are trying to negotiate for her and the other guy to be released.


Yes, nice to see she hasn't been fully forgotten, but the outcry that was happening in the beginning is almost non existent now.  The masses have moved on to their next outrage.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2022)

Probably because once the masses realized it was an incredibly stupid decision to take illegal drugs into a country we are quazi at war with they didn't feel bad for her anymore.  Just a hunch...   Its not like she was being wrongfully charged with something.

Does the punishment fit the crime?  Not really for us to say as lots of country's have stiff rules for things you get a pass on in the USA.


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## cdskier (Sep 20, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Probably because once the masses realized it was an incredibly stupid decision to take illegal drugs into a country we are quazi at war with they didn't feel bad for her anymore.  Just a hunch...   Its not like she was being wrongfully charged with something.
> 
> Does the punishment fit the crime?  Not really for us to say as lots of country's have stiff rules for things you get a pass on in the USA.



To be honest, it is pretty stupid to go at all to a country that is essentially an "enemy" of ours at the moment. Even without having illegal drugs...why take that risk?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2022)

I don't disagree with that for sure. I believe she was going to Europe to play basketball, correct?  

either way, Vail still sucks.


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## 2Planker (Sep 20, 2022)

urungus said:


> Actually North America and Europe have done a decent job combating acid rain, maybe that’s why you don’t hear about it as much
> 
> View attachment 54794
> 
> ...


True That !!!
  Having gone to college in the MidWest...
40+ years ago, it was the  Mid West factories that were being blamed for  causing the Acid Rain problem on the East Coast.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I don't disagree with that for sure. I believe she was going to Europe to play basketball, correct?
> 
> either way, Vail still sucks.


Yep. And I believe she legitimately forgot she had it. Not a great excuse, but she is not trafficking drugs.


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## djd66 (Sep 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> And I believe she legitimately forgot she had it.


I do not believe that for 1 second.


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## raisingarizona (Sep 20, 2022)

djd66 said:


> I do not believe that for 1 second.


It’s definitely the go to bullshit line but if you’re a regular cannabis user it’s extremely easy to forget about a small amount that’s buried somewhere in your cloths or gear.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> It’s definitely the go to bullshit line but if you’re a regular cannabis user it’s extremely easy to forget about a small amount that’s buried somewhere in your cloths or gear.


Probably true.  However, when you travel to foreign countries, you need to up your game and triple check yourself and gear prior to going.  Lest you end up in the slammer in some foreign land.  We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.


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## drjeff (Sep 20, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably true.  However, when you travel to foreign countries, you need to up your game and triple check yourself and gear prior to going.  Lest you end up in the slammer in some foreign land.  We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.


And I get the impression that while Ms Griner (or is it Mrs Griner??) is a phenomenal women's basketball player, that she isn't exactly the brightest bulb out there. So not exactly sure that she fully grasped the consequences of her choice to bring the cannabis oil into Russia, even if a US physician did give her a legitimate prescription for its use for whatever ailments she was supposedly taking it for


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## Edd (Sep 20, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably true.  However, when you travel to foreign countries, you need to up your game and triple check yourself and gear prior to going.  Lest you end up in the slammer in some foreign land.  We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.


Yeah, I’d be nervous in Russia for sure. I’m in Mexico now and no way would I have brought edibles here.


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## thebigo (Sep 21, 2022)

Timely discussion. In austria right now with a colleague who uses edibles to sleep. He carried some on for the flight and checked a weeks worth in his luggage. I thought he was nuts but no issues so far.


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## Kingslug20 (Sep 21, 2022)

Wonder if Mr Biden would be trying to get one of us back if we did this...
I wasn't that good at throwing a ball...through a hoop.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably true.  However, when you travel to foreign countries, you need to up your game and triple check yourself and gear prior to going.  Lest you end up in the slammer in some foreign land.  We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.


And it’s not like we’re talking about any old country, this is communist Russia ffs!


----------



## machski (Sep 21, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> And it’s not like we’re talking about any old country, this is communist Russia ffs!


Yeah, when I was flying the Gulfstream, Russia, Saudi (any Arab country actually), Israel were the big ones that raised your alert and required a triple check of bags.  Hell Saudi would come onboard and lock our liquor cabinets on the jet as soon as we arrived, then scan laptops for pornographic material.  Singapore too, they don't tolerate chewing gum over there.  You leave the USA, you need to check your US freedom badge at the border.


----------



## x10003q (Sep 21, 2022)

The Russians claim Griner had .7gram of canabis oil. If she had .6 gram she would have faced an administrative ticket. The idea that they charged her with smuggling a significant amount and it is just over the administrative ticket amount shows the charges are complete nonsense. The amount they charged her with has no value.  It turns out many russians who are are charged with possession seem to have just over the .6gram amount.  Nobody knows how much she was carrying but we can infer it was less than .7gram or the Russians would have charged her with the larger amount.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 21, 2022)

I would not be one bit surprised if the charges were inflated/fake/planted/whatever. But that's also exactly why going to a country like Russia was stupid in the first place. Some random US civilian visiting would likely be safe if they followed the rules, but someone with a higher profile that has some perceived "value" as a political pawn needs to know to not even step foot in a country like that at the moment because they can easily be targeted by their government and have little recourse.


----------



## urungus (Sep 21, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I would not be one bit surprised if the charges were inflated/fake/planted/whatever. But that's also exactly why going to a country like Russia was stupid in the first place. Some random US civilian visiting would likely be safe if they followed the rules, but someone with a higher profile that has some perceived "value" as a political pawn needs to know to not even step foot in a country like that at the moment because they can easily be targeted by their government and have little recourse.


Yeah not normally a conspiracy theorist, but given Russian involvement it is certainly a possibility that it was planted.  They could have taken the cartridge from her trash, stolen it from her home, etc.  Then when it turns up in her luggage she thinks she forgot about it because she was high.


----------



## skiur (Sep 21, 2022)

urungus said:


> Yeah not normally a conspiracy theorist, but given Russian involvement it is certainly a possibility that it was planted.  They could have taken the cartridge from her trash, stolen it from her home, etc.  Then when it turns up in her luggage she thinks she forgot about it because she was high.



I don't buy that, she knew it was there.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2022)

skiur said:


> I don't buy that, she knew it was there.



She has admittted that she knew she had it with her, and thought that because she had a valid prescription for it from her US based doctor, that she would be fine.  So yes, she definitely knew it was there, and she may very well of had the amount listed as she was supposed to be in Russia foe the entire women's professional basketball season, which I believe is a couple of months long.

Now if one wants to go conspiracy theory on this, since as I understand it the majority of the Russian Women's professional basketball teams are owned by various Russian Oligarchs. Wondering if whichever Oligarch own's the team that she plays for did something to piss Putin off, and this is some kind of "2 birds with 1 stone" type of thing where Putin not only pisses the Oligarch off a bit (his team looses it's star player) as well as piss off the US a bit??

Boy do we need some cold air and some snow and snowmaking soon!


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Yeah, when I was flying the Gulfstream, Russia, Saudi (any Arab country actually), Israel were the big ones that raised your alert and required a triple check of bags.  Hell Saudi would come onboard and lock our liquor cabinets on the jet as soon as we arrived, then scan laptops for pornographic material.  Singapore too, they don't tolerate chewing gum over there.  You leave the USA, you need to check your US freedom badge at the border.


I could get behind outlawing chewing gum, jus sayin.

Seriously though, who the F spits their gum out on to the sidewalk or pavement in say, a parking lot? That's such a dick move or are people that completely unaware of their impacts on others? Ok, rant over, carry on.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep. And I believe she legitimately forgot she had it. Not a great excuse, but she is not trafficking drugs.



Let's be honest, she was taken as a political pawn for leverage at a later date. 

She's a juicy target as a triple-threat for a Democrat president, black, female, and gay - all key identity politics targets a Democrat has to be perceived by his/her base as caring about (e.g. not rotting in a Russian detention facility).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Wonder if Mr Biden would be trying to get one of us back if we did this...
> I wasn't that good at throwing a ball...through a hoop.


The ball and the hoop have nothing to do with it. 

If you were Randy Davis from a small farming town in Indiana who played NCAA ball at Wichita State, Mr Biden wouldn't give a ratz azz about your Russian detention for violating that nation's drug laws.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> Seriously though, *who the F spits their gum out on to the sidewalk or pavement in say, a parking lot? That's such a dick move* or are people that completely unaware of their impacts on others? Ok, rant over, carry on.



Literally happened to me 2 weeks ago in Delaware.  Took a bit of work getting it off the SUV carpet.  Grrrr.....


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 21, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably true.  However, when you travel to foreign countries, you need to up your game and triple check yourself and gear prior to going.  Lest you end up in the slammer in some foreign land.  We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.


I ran 3-4 week  Med trip to Nicaragua for many years.  In 2009,  2 Med students changed their own Tix and flew down 3 days early to  go surf in San Juan Del Sur.
 BAD  MOVE considering they were carrying $$$$ worth of Medications and Surg Equipment with NO attending faculty or manifest documentation which was required for entrance into the country.

 They were jailed together for 4 days at the airport, in a 10'x10' concrete cell w/ a hole in the ground and only 2 "meals" of Rice & Beans/day.

Everything they were carrying was confiscated at the airport  BUT I always carry a bottle of Jack Daniels just for  times like that.
A good Nica guard will always take the Jack


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I ran 3-4 week  Med trip to Nicaragua for many years.  In 2009,  2 Med students changed their own Tix and flew down 3 days early to  go surf in San Juan Del Sur.
> BAD  MOVE considering they were carrying $$$$ worth of Medications and Surg Equipment with NO attending faculty or manifest documentation which was required for entrance into the country.
> 
> They were jailed together for 4 days at the airport, in a 10'x10' concrete cell w/ a hole in the ground and only 2 "meals" of Rice & Beans/day



I've stayed in Edmunston, NB before when visiting Ft Kent, ME for work.  I had some spare medical equipment in the car.  US customs gave me a helluva time trying to come back into the country.  Canada didn't care.  It was eye opening.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 21, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Let's be honest, she was taken as a political pawn for leverage at a later date.
> 
> She's a juicy target as a triple-threat for a Democrat president, black, female, and gay - all key identity politics targets a Democrat has to be perceived by his/her base as caring about (e.g. not rotting in a Russian detention facility).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2022)

how can we bring this back to Vail Sucks?  Was it Katz who planted the weed?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Let's be honest, she was taken as a political pawn for leverage at a later date.
> 
> She's a juicy target as a triple-threat for a Democrat president, black, female, and gay - all key identity politics targets a Democrat has to be perceived by his/her base as caring about (e.g. not rotting in a Russian detention facility).


Correct.


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## Kingslug20 (Sep 21, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> The ball and the hoop have nothing to do with it.
> 
> If you were Randy Davis from a small farming town in Indiana who played NCAA ball at Wichita State, Mr Biden wouldn't give a ratz azz about your Russian detention for violating that nation's drug laws.


That's my point...


----------



## NYDB (Sep 21, 2022)

What point ?  That one of the best female basketball players of all time has greater political value than a portly middle aged retired Handyman? 

Who would have thought?

if randy davis was one of the best basketball players of all time and a white guy from Wichita state he’d be home already.  Gmafb.  It’s all about identity politics with you guys.  It’s amazing.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 21, 2022)

This place degrades into old white men yelling, a lot.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 21, 2022)




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## Mainer (Sep 21, 2022)

Look up Allen Russell. Serving a life sentence for having 1.5 ounces of weed in Mississippi( 3 strike law) We should probably try to fix our country before worrying about what other countries do.
    Back to vail sucks. Wachusett or Wildcat who is opening first? I think wawa has beaten wildcat the last 2 years.


----------



## urungus (Sep 21, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Look up Allen Russell. Serving a life sentence for having 1.5 ounces of weed in Mississippi( 3 strike law) We should probably try to fix our country before worrying about what other countries do.
> Back to vail sucks. Wachusett or Wildcat who is opening first? I think wawa has beaten wildcat the last 2 years.


Wachusett for sure


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 22, 2022)

If Wildcat runs their system at capacity, in their first snowmaking window, without blowing something up or finding something broken, that's the first sign Vail actually put maintenance effort and staff in and let them do their jobs.

I don't particularly expect that to happen.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2022)

+ is properly staffed, which has been more of an issue than equipment.


----------



## raisingarizona (Sep 22, 2022)

NYDB said:


> What point ?  That one of the best female basketball players of all time has greater political value than a portly middle aged retired Handyman?
> 
> Who would have thought?
> 
> if randy davis was one of the best basketball players of all time and a white guy from Wichita state he’d be home already.  Gmafb.  It’s all about identity politics with you guys.  It’s amazing.


She’s that good? 

I bet if this happened in North Korea she’d be treated like royalty.


----------



## abc (Sep 22, 2022)

cdskier said:


> To be honest, it is pretty stupid to go at all to a country that is essentially an "enemy" of ours at the moment. Even without having illegal drugs...why take that risk?


Money?


----------



## shawnanigans (Sep 22, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Look up Allen Russell. Serving a life sentence for having 1.5 ounces of weed in Mississippi( 3 strike law) We should probably try to fix our country before worrying about what other countries do.
> Back to vail sucks. Wachusett or Wildcat who is opening first? I think wawa has beaten wildcat the last 2 years.



I am pretty sure that Wachusestt was first to open in the north east in Fall of 2020 while others were delayed with Covid concerns.  They almost always have 1 to 2 WROD trails open prior to Thanksgiving if not a week or 2 prior if they get the weather.


----------



## 180 (Sep 22, 2022)

shawnanigans said:


> I am pretty sure that Wachusestt was first to open in the north east in Fall of 2020 while others were delayed with Covid concerns.  They almost always have 1 to 2 WROD trails open prior to Thanksgiving if not a week or 2 prior if they get the weather.


I can tell you that VAIL put much effort into rebuilding Hunters system this summer.  Watching many of the snowmakers on FaceBook.


----------



## RichT (Sep 22, 2022)

180 said:


> I can tell you that VAIL put much effort into rebuilding Hunters system this summer.  Watching many of the snowmakers on FaceBook.


Now all that have to do is use it!


----------



## zyk (Sep 22, 2022)

Well it will be just my luck... Hunter will blow like crazy, open the entire west side including the lift midweek this year...  And I bought a different pass.  You can thank me later.


----------



## Edd (Sep 22, 2022)

zyk said:


> Well it will be just my luck... Hunter will blow like crazy, open the entire west side including the lift midweek this year...  And I bought a different pass.  You can thank me later.


Hoping similar happens with Wildcat while I take the year off from Epic.


----------



## FBGM (Sep 23, 2022)

zyk said:


> Well it will be just my luck... Hunter will blow like crazy, open the entire west side including the lift midweek this year...  And I bought a different pass.  You can thank me later.


I think Hunter and Vail will blow, just blow. Not snow. Just blow


----------



## Andrew B. (Sep 24, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> This place degrades into old white men yelling, a lot.


Sure does


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 24, 2022)

Nice drop in Vail stock lately. Still severely overpriced. Disclosure: I currently hold a short position. Vail sucks.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2022)

NYDB said:


> What point ?  That one of the best female basketball players of all time has greater political value than a portly middle aged retired Handyman?



Oh yeah, because people give a **** about women's basketball, and a domestic league which has lost millions of dollars every year (literally) since its inception.  Before her arrest, a vast majority of people didnt even know who she was if you allowed yourself a moment of honesty.  Don't be naïve.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Nice drop in Vail stock lately. Still severely overpriced. Disclosure: I currently hold a short position. Vail sucks.



The time to short will be once you notice large increases in the price of ancillary items.


----------



## urungus (Sep 28, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> The time to short will be once you notice large increases in the price of ancillary items.


Such as  parking …


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2022)

Well judging by the race schedule that I just saw was put out for the Eastern Region, Vail is planning on keeping Attitash Open through the last week of March at minumum, as they are scheduled to host the Eastern U16 finals from March 18-21 and then the Eastern U18 finals from March 22-25. And considering that these are big events that the mountain has to apply for/bid on to host, that's a sign that the mountain, mountain ops and the Attitash Race Staff are intent on making these events happen at the end of March


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Well judging by the race schedule that I just saw was put out for the Eastern Region, Vail is planning on keeping Attitash Open through the last week of March at minumum, as they are scheduled to host the Eastern U16 finals from March 18-21 and then the Eastern U18 finals from March 22-25. And considering that these are big events that the mountain has to apply for/bid on to host, that's a sign that the mountain, mountain ops and the Attitash Race Staff are intent on making these events happen at the end of March


Except that  I wouldn't believe one F'ing word Attitash says at this point.....
 It'll be a very slow start to the season, followed by super crowded and way under staffed holiday period.
Hopefully they can get their shit together in Jan/Feb.

 Still looking for Lift Op personnel and supervisor, Groomers (@ lowest pay in MWV), and Snowmakers.
And that's just the On Mt crew.  No job fair this year, Minimal adds.....
Sure is gonna be interesting..


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 28, 2022)

So they are hiring tons of people but didn't have a hiring event?  Even little ole Roundtop has a hiring event every year (including the Vail years)

this is just another example of how the lack of stable upper management at AT and Wildcat are affecting their ability to operate properly.


----------



## ctdubl07 (Sep 28, 2022)

Funny you mention hiring/job fair.....I live about 15 minutes from Ski Sundown in CT and the last few years, I have Vol for my kids school "ski night" thus putting me on their mailing list. An email came thru earlier promoting upcoming hiring fair, on the spot interviews and work perks.


----------



## 2Planker (Sep 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So they are hiring tons of people but didn't have a hiring event?  Even little ole Roundtop has a hiring event every year (including the Vail years)
> 
> this is just another example of how the lack of stable upper management at AT and Wildcat are affecting their ability to operate properly.


No, not really.    They are barely even looking or advertising...
Most of the "on snow" full timers from the last couple years threw in the towel.
All of them took their (many years of) experience to BW, Pleasant, Cranmore, Black usually for better $$$$.

Once again, WC asked me to return, but I'm holding out. 
With 40 years experience, they need to up the anti., Also have offers  on the table from both BW & Pleasant.
  I bet WC takes the new guy w/ not even 2 full season under his belt.


----------



## machski (Sep 28, 2022)

Well, I will give Vail credit for figuring what to do with the stymied Silver load and Eagle replacement lifts at PC.  Sending both up to Blackcomb/Whistler, need a bit of re-engineering but the 8 and 6 will be going in up there next summer.  Good on them.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 30, 2022)

Casual skiier may be finally starting to catch on:



> However, full Epic and Epic Local unlimited season pass sales declined roughly 10 percent. The company’s total 2023 capital plan is expected to total $191 million to $196 million, significantly less than this year’s $323 to $333 million. Those numbers reflect approximately $10 million in capital deferred from 2022 to 2023 as a result of the Park City and Keystone lift delays.











						Vail Resorts to Install Deferred Park City Lifts at Whistler Blackcomb
					

In its earnings report today, Vail Resorts announced new six and eight passenger lifts will be built at Whistler Blackcomb in 2023, replacing the aging Jersey Cream and Fitzsimmons high speed quads…




					liftblog.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2022)

big lols at stowe's facebook post about parking and the melts in the comments. sweet season pass you got there, would be a shame if i doubled your costs with a parking pass that guarantees nothing


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> big lols at stowe's facebook post about parking and the melts in the comments. sweet season pass you got there, would be a shame if i doubled your costs with a parking pass that guarantees nothing
> 
> View attachment 54822


Exactly. Monetize the solution to the problem that they, themselves, created.


----------



## Edd (Sep 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> big lols at stowe's facebook post about parking and the melts in the comments. sweet season pass you got there, would be a shame if i doubled your costs with a parking pass that guarantees nothing
> 
> View attachment 54822


I have no words, but we’re probably not at rock bottom yet. Sweet Jesus, if I were a lifelong Stowe local/homer I’d be having a bad day.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2022)

Watch them make one of the better lots for day parking only, no season passes allowed. gotta maximize that daily take


----------



## slatham (Sep 30, 2022)

ok I can understand the lack of a guaranteed spot. Never know how many people will show, plus the added variable of the number of car pools on a given day. That said, there is an easy solution - a prior reservation. Yes it’s a pain but you’ve already paid for an Epic pass, paid for a parking pass, and are forced to use an app. Pretty simple to give the option to go on said app and reserve a spot. 

Simply can’t imagine showing up after all that hassle and money and being told to turn around and go to remote lot, or potentially home?

Luckily I will not be subject to any of the above……


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

slatham said:


> ok I can understand the lack of a guaranteed spot. Never know how many people will show, plus the added variable of the number of car pools on a given day. That said, there is an easy solution - a prior reservation. Yes it’s a pain but you’ve already paid for an Epic pass, paid for a parking pass, and are forced to use an app. Pretty simple to give the option to go on said app and reserve a spot.
> 
> Simply can’t imagine showing up after all that hassle and money and being told to turn around and go to remote lot, or potentially home?
> 
> Luckily I will not be subject to any of the above……


Parking reservations make complete sense.  Except if you are Vail.  The reason I say that is because when folks go to make a reservation, and can't, it becomes painfully obvious that Vail is overselling their product and customers will be very angry (a lot already are).


----------



## gittist (Sep 30, 2022)

So I wonder what you do at the pay station if your car has 4 people in it??  "Yes I certify I arrived with 3 other people.." ...yeah...rigghhhhht.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 30, 2022)

They've finally provided the answer to how they will validate the "4 people or more is free" thing...

_For free carpool parking, simply follow these steps:
_

_Find one of our Parking Ambassadors, situated throughout the lot. They can verify four or more in a vehicle._
_Once verified our Parking Ambassadors will provide you with a Carpool Parking Code. _
_Simply apply the Carpool Parking Code to the payment system for free carpool parking._


----------



## mbedle (Sep 30, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Parking reservations make complete sense.  Except if you are Vail.  The reason I say that is because when folks go to make a reservation, and can't, it becomes painfully obvious that Vail is overselling their product and customers will be very angry (a lot already are).


I think being stuck on Mountain Road for 2 hours has already proven to most people they are crowded. What will be interesting is seeing if the bus service is going to be able to handle some increased usage. I will expect to see crazy bus stop lines at Toll House and the cross country center from 7:30- 9:00 in the mornings.


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 30, 2022)

cdskier said:


> _For free carpool parking, simply follow these steps:_



I've noticed in life that whenever a company tells me to "simply" do something, it almost always turns out to be a big pain in the ass.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 30, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> I've noticed in life that whenever a company tells me to "simply" do something, it almost always turns out to be a big pain in the ass.



Hah...agreed! I can see numerous potential issues with this method that will make it anything but "simple".


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2022)

finding these parking ambassadors will be a bit like going on a sasquatch hunt. desperately searching in the snow for something that doesn't exist.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Sep 30, 2022)

Oh this will be fun


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2022)

Edd said:


> I have no words, but we’re probably not at rock bottom yet. Sweet Jesus, if I were a lifelong Stowe local/homer I’d be having a bad day.



They pretty much have turned the place into my ex-girlfriend from college that I don't really care to see again.  We had some really good times 25 years ago, but man did she become a total bitch.  Same thing


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> They pretty much have turned the place into my ex-girlfriend from college that I don't really care to see again.  We had some really good times 25 years ago, but man did she become a total bitch.  Same thing


That’s how I feel about Deer Valley


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## eatskisleep (Oct 1, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> The time to short will be once you notice large increases in the price of ancillary items.











						Stowe Announces $450 Season Parking Pass That Doesn't Guarantee Spot
					

Stowe, VT is responding to the crippling influx of traffic on its lone two-lane access road by charging for parking this season. They stated back in May that daily parking on weekends and holidays …




					unofficialnetworks.com
				





urungus said:


> Such as  parking …


----------



## snoseek (Oct 1, 2022)

I read this thread right before bed last night and had this dream that I pulled up to the Manfield lot to go skiing and the lot was replaced with hotels. when asked where to park I was told you had to stay in the hotel to access


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 1, 2022)

cdskier said:


> They've finally provided the answer to how they will validate the "4 people or more is free" thing...
> 
> _For free carpool parking, simply follow these steps:_
> 
> ...


Exactly how Solitude in Utah runs their lot. Never had a hard time tracking down parking attendant there.


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## Keelhauled (Oct 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> finding these parking ambassadors will be a bit like going on a sasquatch hunt. desperately searching in the snow for something that doesn't exist.


My minor conspiracy theory is they're going to assign one ambassador for the AM rush.  No one will be able to find the person, so they say the hell with it and leave.  At noon, they'll deploy a dozen more people who spend the afternoon going through and writing tickets.


----------



## Cobbold (Oct 1, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> My minor conspiracy theory is they're going to assign one ambassador for the AM rush.  No one will be able to find the person, so they say the hell with it and leave.  At noon, they'll deploy a dozen more people who spend the afternoon going through and writing tickets.


How does stowe collect on the parking tickets? Looks to my like the whole pay for parking is an honor system, after you park you hit the app on your cell phone and if you don’t hit the app, what can stowe do about it?


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> How does stowe collect on the parking tickets? Looks to my like the whole pay for parking is an honor system, after you park you hit the app on your cell phone and if you don’t hit the app, what can stowe do about it?


if you have multiple unpaid citations, they tow you off their lot


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## Cobbold (Oct 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you have multiple unpaid citations, they tow you off their lot


Who is towing you the town or vail?


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## cdskier (Oct 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> Who is towing you the town or vail?



Technically neither. I'd assume it would be whoever Interstate Parking hires to do it (unless they have their own tow trucks and impound lot...but I kind of doubt that).


----------



## raisingarizona (Oct 1, 2022)

F these guys! 

Don't support Epic y'all.


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## Cobbold (Oct 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you have multiple unpaid citations, they tow you off their lot


Kusty , you are a lawyer, but I worked with an organization 40 years years ago that looked into towing cars that parked in their parking spaces, they dropped it because of Massachusetts laws made it virtually impossible to tow a car, granted that was Massachusetts not Vermont, and it was a long time so my memory may be off on this, my guess stowe mtn resort towing cars that are not parked in front of fire hydrants and fire lanes is next to impossible


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I read this thread right before bed last night and had this dream that I pulled up to the Manfield lot to go skiing and the lot was replaced with hotels. when asked where to park I was told you had to stay in the hotel to access


Interestingly enough Vail owns NONE of the hotels at Stowe.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 3, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> Kusty , you are a lawyer, but I worked with an organization 40 years years ago that looked into towing cars that parked in their parking spaces, they dropped it because of Massachusetts laws made it virtually impossible to tow a car, granted that was Massachusetts not Vermont, and it was a long time so my memory may be off on this, my guess stowe mtn resort towing cars that are not parked in front of fire hydrants and fire lanes is next to impossible



It’s the same thing as the supermarket around the corner that has signs that say parking for customers only violators will be towed. It’s private property, if you park there without proper authorization they have the right to remove your car


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 3, 2022)

It's very simple to contract with a towing company...they love this stuff..


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 3, 2022)

Edd said:


> *I have no words, but we’re probably not at rock bottom yet*. Sweet Jesus, if I were a lifelong Stowe local/homer I’d be having a bad day.



Not even close.   Lots more juice can be incrementally squeezed from various lemons.  Just squeeze slowly.

My belief has always been that the _"unprecedented cheap skiing"_ will get much closer to the "old expensive skiing" eventually, for all but the thriftiest of skiers who can navigate the monetization landmines.   I expect Vail to eventually put in a Disney FAST PASS at all their lists eventually, but it will cost FAST PASS holders $X more per day.   I'm not clever enough to dream up all the ways Vail can add new fees to skiers, but unfortunately, they sure are.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not even close.   Lots more juice can be incrementally squeezed from various lemons.  Just squeeze slowly.
> 
> My belief has always been that the _"unprecedented cheap skiing"_ will get much closer to the "old expensive skiing" eventually, for all but the thriftiest of skiers who can navigate the monetization landmines.   I expect Vail to eventually put in a Disney FAST PASS at all their lists eventually, but it will cost FAST PASS holders $X more per day.   I'm not clever enough to dream up all the ways Vail can add new fees to skiers, but unfortunately, they sure are.


A special surcharge to ski the Front Four.


----------



## kickstand (Oct 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I expect Vail to eventually put in a Disney FAST PASS at all their lists eventually, but it will cost FAST PASS holders $X more per day.


Bretton Woods has this, cleverly called The Bretton Woods Club.  I've only ever seen old dudes reeking of money with it.  There's an application for it online.  For a single skier, it's $4300, almost $6700 for a couple.  Tack on a few hundred more per dependent.


----------



## Edd (Oct 3, 2022)

kickstand said:


> Bretton Woods has this, cleverly called The Bretton Woods Club.  I've only ever seen old dudes reeking of money with it.  There's an application for it online.  For a single skier, it's $4300, almost $6700 for a couple.  Tack on a few hundred more per dependent.


Interesting, I’ve never looked into it but those prices are hilarious. I know they’ve taken over the old summit lodge. I see they have their own parking, and that you get line cutting privileges.

Do you know if there’s a bar/tavern in their base lodge? It’s not very big. Just wondering what else all that $ gets you.


----------



## catskillman (Oct 3, 2022)

Hunter also has a place, but no priority lift access.  For 1 person I believe it is $1,200.  Gets you a locker, and parking.  That's it.  Very overpriced.  Used to get coffee and hot chocolate but not during covid, doubt they will bring that back.  It is the closet locker room to the lifts, but only by about  p50 steps,  Those lockers are $300, a bit smaller, and you have to use the public bathrooms.  High peaks has 1 womans and 1 mens.stall.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Oct 3, 2022)

I'm going to do my best and ignore all the BS at Stowe..and just ski...yeah..I'm lucky to be able to do it midweek...
Weekends..well by then I'll have 4 or 5 days in between there and SB..so I won't care.


----------



## MidnightJester (Oct 3, 2022)

Vail is testing and trying to move people to physical pass-less phone lift tickets. Just saving the planet with a little data harvesting and tracking mixed in.








						Vail Resorts Announces Digital Passes For 2023/24 Ski Season
					

You ever forget your ski pass at home? You make it all the way to the mountain, get all your gear on, and realize you don’t have that little plastic card with your beautiful face on it? Now y…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## kickstand (Oct 4, 2022)

Edd said:


> Interesting, I’ve never looked into it but those prices are hilarious. I know they’ve taken over the old summit lodge. I see they have their own parking, and that you get line cutting privileges.
> 
> Do you know if there’s a bar/tavern in their base lodge? It’s not very big. Just wondering what else all that $ gets you.


No idea.  The info online says something about the Alpine Club.  I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, but there's zero info about it.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 4, 2022)

kickstand said:


> No idea.  The info online says something about the Alpine Club.  I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, but there's zero info about it.


If you have to ask what it is you can't join...


----------



## RichT (Oct 4, 2022)

kickstand said:


> No idea.  The info online says something about the Alpine Club.  I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, but there's zero info about it.


Hunter has the High Peaks Club, it's like that without the line cutting option.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 4, 2022)

Edd said:


> Interesting, I’ve never looked into it but those prices are hilarious. I know they’ve taken over the old summit lodge. I see they have their own parking, and that you get line cutting privileges.
> 
> Do you know if there’s a bar/tavern in their base lodge? It’s not very big. Just wondering what else all that $ gets you.


We've considered it.... 
Perks are nice but it's kinda like owning a boat.  Way better just to have a couple real good friends with boats...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 4, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> Vail is testing and trying to move people to physical pass-less phone lift tickets. Just saving the planet with *a little data harvesting and tracking mixed in.*



That company's going to know how often you have sex & take a BM before its done.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 5, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Hunter also has a place, but no priority lift access.  For 1 person I believe it is $1,200.  Gets you a locker, and parking.  That's it.  Very overpriced.  Used to get coffee and hot chocolate but not during covid, doubt they will bring that back.  It is the closet locker room to the lifts, but only by about  p50 steps,  Those lockers are $300, a bit smaller, and you have to use the public bathrooms.  High peaks has 1 womans and 1 mens.stall.


Is that still offered?


----------



## mbedle (Oct 5, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> That company's going to know how often you have sex & take a BM before its done.


Wait a minute. I thought everybody's No. 1 foreplay was viewing trail maps in the Epic Mix app and doesn't everyone check their vertical stats when taking a BM???? So they basically already have that data on me.


----------



## catskillman (Oct 5, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Is that still offered?


yep.  wait list I hear


----------



## mbedle (Oct 5, 2022)

catskillman said:


> yep.  wait list I hear


Really - is it run by Vail? Nothing on the website about it, so I assume its just by word of mouth since Vail took over.


----------



## catskillman (Oct 5, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Really - is it run by Vail? Nothing on the website about it, so I assume its just by word of mouth since Vail took over.


yeah - vail runs it.  It is located on the wing where ski patrol and what used to be HR is.  Parking is right against the ambulance parking.  Last year they were not allowed in that door and had to walk around.  Folks were not happy about that.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> We've considered it....
> Perks are nice but it's kinda like owning a boat.  Way better just to have a couple real good friends with boats...


Perk List - https://www.brettonwoods.com/~/media/BrettonWoods/pdfs/BWC MEMBERSHIP BENEFITS.pdf


----------



## Edd (Oct 5, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Perk List - https://www.brettonwoods.com/~/media/BrettonWoods/pdfs/BWC MEMBERSHIP BENEFITS.pdf


Nice. If I had $ to burn this is something I may pull the trigger on, although I’m not a golfer. I admire their operation as a whole. There’s nothing else like it.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Oct 5, 2022)

You can get a seasonal winter social membership for 1395 single or 2195 for couple.  It's an add on to the pass.
WINTER SOCIAL BENEFITS
• Preferred lift line privileges
• First Tracks program (access to lift 30 minutes prior to public)
• Unlimited NASTAR racing
*A Bretton Woods Winter Mountain Pass must be purchased from the Bretton Woods Club to be eligible
for Winter Social benefits  (you can also get the White mountain superpass)


----------



## Tonyr (Oct 5, 2022)

kickstand said:


> No idea.  The info online says something about the Alpine Club.  I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, but there's zero info about it.



If I remember correctly it's around 100k to join Stowe's Spruce Peak club but that included golf too I believe. I know someone that is a member at Telluride's club that's located within the base of Mountain Village. It's 50k to join without golf, 250k to join with golf. I believe those numbers are kind of the going ski/golf membership rates at the higher end resorts in Colorado. If your not a golfer all you really get access to is a fancy Lodge to have drinks at after a day of skiing, a few events here and there, parking, and a locker. Stowe's club is the exact same set up but cheaper.


----------



## MidnightJester (Oct 6, 2022)

Keeping a mountain to EPIC and losing a few mountains. Sun valley and Snowbasin resorts to IKON





__





						Telluride Extends Its Contract With The Epic Pass
					

“Telluride is a special and unique destination for travelers around the world – and we are proud to extend our partnership. With Telluride on select Epic Pass products, Pass Holders can have access…




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## kendo (Oct 6, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I'm going to do my best and ignore all the BS at Stowe..and just ski...yeah..I'm lucky to be able to do it midweek...
> Weekends..well by then I'll have 4 or 5 days in between there and SB..so I won't care.


Same. Free & easy parking. No lines M-Th except 1st chair on a powder day. Tons of daily vert.  Great terrain.  Stoked for the season to begin.


----------



## eatskisleep (Oct 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I read this thread right before bed last night and had this dream that I pulled up to the Manfield lot to go skiing and the lot was replaced with hotels. when asked where to park I was told you had to stay in the hotel to access


Shhhhhh don’t give them any ideas!!


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 31, 2022)

So w/ just a few weeks before ski season starting, Attitash is finally looking for some very essential positions.
 Groomers, Patrollers.....  Ha ha   Good luck w/ the left overs.   Most qualified prospects were scooped up already by BW, Pleasant, & Crotched.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 31, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So w/ just a few weeks before ski season starting, Attitash is finally looking for some very essential positions.
> Groomers, Patrollers.....  Ha ha   Good luck w/ the left overs.   Most qualified prospects were scooped up already by BW, Pleasant, & Crotched.


Crotched?  They are Vail as well.


----------



## eatskisleep (Oct 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Crotched?  They are Vail as well.


Probably meant Cranmore?


----------



## Mainer (Oct 31, 2022)

Vail did have a help wanted booth at the Fryeburg faIr. But almost all the restaurants in the mwv are running half staff. So probably another shit year for atticat


----------



## catskillman (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> So w/ just a few weeks before ski season starting, Attitash is finally looking for some very essential positions.
> Groomers, Patrollers.....  Ha ha   Good luck w/ the left overs.   Most qualified prospects were scooped up already by BW, Pleasant, & Crotched.


Hunter's hiring day is tomorrow.  Did the same last year, way to late in the year to start recruiting even at $20.  

And if you were going to work there - would you want an indoor job cleaning tables or stand out in the weather for $20?  Or cleaning the men's room for $20 when you could be running a cash register?  This should be interesting.........


----------



## Domeskier (Nov 1, 2022)

catskillman said:


> And if you were going to work there - would you want an indoor job cleaning tables or stand out in the weather for $20?  Or cleaning the men's room for $20 when you could be running a cash register?  This should be interesting.........



If I were going to work there, my preference would definitely be outdoors.  Cleaning up other people's garbage or bodily waste is pretty low on my list of desirable activities.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Vail did have a help wanted booth at the Fryeburg faIr. But almost all the restaurants in the mwv are running half staff. So probably another shit year for atticat


…you mean another Epic year.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> …you mean another Epic year.


What’s the starting salary at loon, cannon, Breton woods, cranmore etc?


----------



## Edd (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> What’s the starting salary at loon, cannon, Breton woods, cranmore etc?


I heard recently that Cranmore had moved up to $17.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

Edd said:


> I heard recently that Cranmore had moved up to $17.


Loons website lists  14 an hour, wonder if that is a typo


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2022)

Our neighbors kid went to Attitash last Sat and then again yesterday to try to get a job as a newbie liftie  or as a ski instructor which he has done for 2 years.     No one around in main office, or guest services. No one answering the phones.   Looked around both days for 1-2 hours.  Went to Pleasant/Shawnee at 2pm Monday and was hired as both a liftie & ski instructor.

 Vail can't even help themselves.  Their "mgmnt" couldn't care less about having the majority of positions unfilled


----------



## Edd (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> Loons website lists  14 an hour, wonder if that is a typo


Working at Cranmore you're smack dab in Vacationworld. It's probably easier for commuting to live in a cheap NH town and work at Loon.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Our neighbors kid went to Attitash last Sat and then again yesterday to try to get a job as a newbie liftie  or as a ski instructor which he has done for 2 years.     No one around in main office, or guest services. No one answering the phones.   Looked around both days for 1-2 hours.  Went to Pleasant/Shawnee at 2pm Monday and was hired as both a liftie & ski instructor.
> 
> Vail can't even help themselves.  Their "mgmnt" couldn't care less about having the majority of positions unfilled


No need to visit the place, just apply on line, that’s how the world works now


----------



## snoseek (Nov 1, 2022)

At 20/hr for entry positions they absolutely will fill more jobs this winter.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> At 20/hr for entry positions they absolutely will fill more jobs this winter.


I am hearing lots of jobs around the ski resort will go un filled as every one crowds into the vail resorts for the 20 hr, Wilmington/ Dover is beginning to have this problem


----------



## snoseek (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> I am hearing lots of jobs around the ski resort will go un filled as every one crowds into the vail resorts for the 20 hr, Wilmington/ Dover is beginning to have this problem


Well they need to up the going wage. Zero sympathy coming from me.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> No need to visit the place, just apply on line, that’s how the world works now


Yup...there's literally a link right to search (and apply) for jobs on the top menu of their website.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 1, 2022)

yeah sort of weird to go in person and wander around for up to 2 hours looking to apply for a job and not even check their website...


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> No need to visit the place, just apply on line, that’s how


DUH
He did apply 3 weeks ago, for 2 jobs. 
 He also left his contact info at the Vail booth at the Fryeburg Fair.
 No one ever followed up on either.  Probably a  good thing, as he's now getting better pay at Pleasant, w/ meals comp'd.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> I am hearing lots of jobs around the ski resort will go un filled as every one crowds into the vail resorts for the 20 hr, Wilmington/ Dover is beginning to have this problem


??????  Vail pays way less than the indy places in the MWV.
ski inst was +$3/hr and lift attendant was +$4/hr


----------



## snoseek (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> ??????  Vail pays way less than the indy places in the MWV.
> ski inst was +$3/hr and lift attendant was +$4/hr


so these places are paying 24/hr to bump chairs?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 1, 2022)

wow so the indy places were paying $20+ for those positions?  that's interesting, but also what they feel they need to do to operate normally.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> DUH
> He did apply 3 weeks ago, for 2 jobs.
> He also left his contact info at the Vail booth at the Fryeburg Fair.
> No one ever followed up on either.  Probably a  good thing, as he's now getting better pay at Pleasant, w/ meals comp'd.


How many more miles is it to pleasant from atitash?


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> so these places are paying 24/hr to bump chairs?


I would bump chairs for 24 an hour,lol


----------



## Edd (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> ??????  Vail pays way less than the indy places in the MWV.
> ski inst was +$3/hr and lift attendant was +$4/hr


Which places are you referring to? If we’re talking about rookies off the street, >$20/hr sounds implausible. I could see it if it’s someone with a ski area background.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> so these places are paying 24/hr to bump chairs?





Edd said:


> Which places are you referring to? If we’re talking about rookies off the street, >$20/hr sounds implausible. I could see it if it’s someone with a ski area background.



Nope.  
AT was offering a rookie $16/hr at the Fryeburg Fair. 
Pleasant is starting him at $20. w/ 2y experience


----------



## Edd (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Nope.
> AT was offering a rookie $16/hr at the Fryeburg Fair.
> Pleasant is starting him at $20. w/ 2y experience


Interesting, I thought Vail was starting everyone at $20/hr minimum.  Can't find anything saying NH is excluded somehow.






						Vail finances bounce back, pledges $20 minimum wage to workers  | Vermont Business Magazine
					






					vermontbiz.com
				






> *Employee Investments*
> 
> Commenting on the employee wage hike, Kirsten Lynch, Chief Executive Officer, "Our employees are the core of Vail Resorts' mission of creating an Experience of a Lifetime. We are pleased to announce a significant investment in our employees for next winter season, with an increase in the minimum hourly wage offered across all 37 of our North American resorts to $20 per hour for all U.S. employees and C$20 per hour for all Canadian employees, and an increase in wage rates for hourly employees as we maintain all leadership and career stage differentials. Roles that have specific experiences or certification as prerequisites, such as entry-level patrol, commercial drivers, and maintenance technicians will start at $21 per hour. Tipped employees will be guaranteed a minimum of $20 per hour. The Company will also be assessing targeted increases, beyond inflation, for our salaried employees and will be making a significant investment in our human resource department to ensure the right level of employee support, development and recruiting. Talent is our most important asset and our strategic priority at all levels of the Company and we expect these investments will be an important step to enhance the experience for our employees through increased hiring, retention and talent development. Our employee investments are intended to help us achieve normal staffing levels, and in turn, deliver an outstanding guest experience. The increase in wages and the return to normal staffing levels will represent an approximately $175 million increase in expected labor expense in fiscal 2023 compared to fiscal 2022 expected labor expense, including inflationary adjustments.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 1, 2022)

Wouldn’t surprise me Vail still fucks over employees. They promised last year the national minimum wage was $15 yet they were paying NH workers less and surprisingly PA workers even less.  IRRC PA workers were getting $12/hr. They also promised to raise wages way back mid last winter for this season. But all current work or offseason work was still at old low wages.

They are a PR machine and don’t give a care about their employees. When the announcement was made it was to stave off potential Wall Street active investors due to the public black eyes of 45+ minute lines with lifts elsewhere closed due to lack of personnel.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

Every web site for vail owned ski area  says starting pay is 20 bucks


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 1, 2022)

Total BS from Vail.  There is no way they're giving HS kids $20/hr.

He was also offered a F&B


Cobbold said:


> How many more miles is it to pleasant from atitash?


From Conway both are 20 mins away


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Total BS from Vail.  There is no way they're giving HS kids $20/hr.
> 
> He was also offered a F&B
> 
> From Conway both are 20 mins away


Why not


----------



## drjeff (Nov 1, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Total BS from Vail.  There is no way they're giving HS kids $20/hr.
> 
> He was also offered a F&B
> 
> From Conway both are 20 mins away


I know of atleast 4 highschoolers who will be getting $20/hr from Vail this season for on snow jobs helping the instructors and coaches of the ski school and race team.

All the signage/ads you see tout the starting rate of $20/hr with no mention of less for younger employees and/or certain resorts


----------



## skiur (Nov 2, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Total BS from Vail.  There is no way they're giving HS kids $20/hr.
> 
> He was also offered a F&B
> 
> From Conway both are 20 mins away


What does age have to do with it?


----------



## RichT (Nov 2, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I know of atleast 4 highschoolers who will be getting $20/hr from Vail this season for on snow jobs helping the instructors and coaches of the ski school and race team.
> 
> All the signage/ads you see tout the starting rate of $20/hr with no mention of less for younger employees and/or certain resorts


Cheap passes, higher wages..........jeez how's this going to play out? F&B?


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 2, 2022)

Cobbold said:


> Why not


Saw the kid last night, and he said AT told him $16 unless he committed to 20 hrs/week. 
Kinda hard if you're in school  M-F, and only have Sat & Sun to work. AT work day is 8-4
 so his max would be 16 hours/week.  He made the right move by going to Pleasant. 
Better pay and no 20 hour minimum


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Saw the kid last night, and he said AT told him $16 unless he committed to 20 hrs/week.
> Kinda hard if you're in school  M-F, and only have Sat & Sun to work. AT work day is 8-4
> so his max would be 16 hours/week.  He made the right move by going to Pleasant.
> Better pay and no 20 hour minimum









"We require a firm commitment from our employees to deliver an EPIC experience. Hope the kid enjoys Pleasant Mountain. I hear it is a quaint place. It would be a shame if somethin' happened to it."


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> "We require a firm commitment from our employees to deliver an EPIC experience. Hope the kid enjoys Pleasant Mountain. I hear it is a quaint place. It would be a shame if somethin' happened to it."


Funniest thing I have seen all day,lol


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 2, 2022)

AT just lost  2 lift mechanics. Both w/ 25+ years of experience.  One went to BW, the other to Dopplemayr.
  No lift foreman, no lift mechanics, still need groomers.....
Gonna be a helluva season


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2022)

2Planker said:


> AT just lost  2 lift mechanics. Both w/ 25+ years of experience.  One went to BW, the other to Dopplemayr.
> No lift foreman, no lift mechanics, still need groomers.....
> Gonna be a helluva season


Brand new lift and nobody to run it!!!!

I can’t believe how far Attitash has fallen. It used to be the shit back in the day. Now it’s just shit.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2022)

Attitash update:  LiftBlog is reporting that the Summit Triple replacement has been approved by the NFS.  






						Box
					






					usfs-public.app.box.com
				




(That was not hard)


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Attitash update:  LiftBlog is reporting that the Summit Triple replacement has been approved by the NFS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 4, 2022)

...and just like the rumor/excuse of Forest Service pushback for a possible replacement by previous owner(s) is kaput. Yep, that's me saying Vail at least tried.


----------



## Cobbold (Nov 4, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> ...and just like the rumor/excuse of Forest Service pushback for a possible replacement by previous owner(s) is kaput. Yep, that's me saying Vail at least tried.


Yeah but vail sucks


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 4, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> ...and just like the rumor/excuse of Forest Service pushback for a possible replacement by previous owner(s) is kaput. Yep, that's me saying Vail at least tried.


You gotta have money to have influence and the FS goes through rec staff faster than McDonalds sells French fries. You can have a NO person one year and the next year a new, often younger and enthusiastic person gets the position and signs a ton of shit to be completed.

OR, they were using the FS as an excuse. That's often a thing too


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> You gotta have money to have influence and the FS goes through rec staff faster than McDonalds sells French fries. You can have a NO person one year and the next year a new, often younger and enthusiastic person gets the position and signs a ton of shit to be completed.
> 
> OR, they were using the FS as an excuse. That's often a thing too




(How cute. People think that the USFS actually HAD a choice in the decision).


----------



## cdskier (Nov 4, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> You gotta have money to have influence and the FS goes through rec staff faster than McDonalds sells French fries. You can have a NO person one year and the next year a new, often younger and enthusiastic person gets the position and signs a ton of shit to be completed.
> 
> OR, they were using the FS as an excuse. That's often a thing too



The current WMNF supervisor (that signed off on this) has been with the USFS for about 20 years now, although he did only become the supervisor of the WMNF 2 years ago. So certainly possible a previous supervisor would have said no. I'm still betting more on it just having been an excuse and the permit was never even attempted.


----------



## raisingarizona (Nov 4, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The current WMNF supervisor (that signed off on this) has been with the USFS for about 20 years now, although he did only become the supervisor of the WMNF 2 years ago. So certainly possible a previous supervisor would have said no. I'm still betting more on it just having been an excuse and the permit was never even attempted.


Most USFS employees are lifers and they get moved around a lot. But still, I'm not doubting that possibility either. A company like Vail tends to get their way and as far as the previous owners it's a pretty darn normal behavior for corporate, bureaucratic organizations to use someone else as an excuse or a scapegoat.


----------



## urungus (Nov 4, 2022)

New Creekside lifts won't be ready for opening day, Whistler Blackcomb confirms
					

With Red Chair 'further along' than gondola due to shipping delays, free shuttles between Creekside and Village will aim to help ease congestion




					www.piquenewsmagazine.com


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2022)

urungus said:


> New Creekside lifts won't be ready for opening day, Whistler Blackcomb confirms
> 
> 
> With Red Chair 'further along' than gondola due to shipping delays, free shuttles between Creekside and Village will aim to help ease congestion
> ...


Have to say I cannot blame Vail for this (other than knowingly switching out the only 2 lifts to serve Creekside in the same offseason).  That has to suck to see the Gondi rope arrive in San Diego and then just sit there for weeks waiting on the shipping transfer.


----------



## machski (Nov 12, 2022)

Well, given all the snow out west, Vail has been opening many of it's resorts early.  This weekend, not just Heavenly but Kirkwood and Northstar are all opening early.  Palisades, which used to push topen as early as they could?  Nope, too busy finishing the interconnect gondi and Red Dog chairs apparently.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 12, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, given all the snow out west, Vail has been opening many of it's resorts early.  This weekend, not just Heavenly but Kirkwood and Northstar are all opening early.  Palisades, which used to push topen as early as they could?  Nope, too busy finishing the interconnect gondi and Red Dog chairs apparently.


Thar interconnect gondi they're installing at Palisades is an absolute BEAST of a lift.


----------



## machski (Nov 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Thar interconnect gondi they're installing at Palisades is an absolute BEAST of a lift.


I suppose, I think Wild Blue at Steamboat is beefier (once stage 2 is built next year anyway)


----------



## drjeff (Nov 12, 2022)

machski said:


> I suppose, I think Wild Blue at Steamboat is beefier (once stage 2 is built next year anyway)


Agree!

My wife and I are literally looking at the schematics of that full Wild Blue expansion for the '23-24 season on the couch tonight and seriously discussing getting IKON's next season and going to Steamboat to check it out in what will be our first season (the '23-24 season) when BOTH of our kids are out of the house and in college leaving us in a kid free home for the 1st time in almost 20yrs!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Agree!
> 
> My wife and I are literally looking at the schematics of that full Wild Blue expansion for the '23-24 season on the couch tonight and seriously discussing getting IKON's next season and going to Steamboat to check it out in what will be our first season (the '23-24 season) when BOTH of our kids are out of the house and in college leaving us in a kid free home for the 1st time in almost 20yrs!


Steamboat is a great town. Lots to do and still authentic. It is slowly changing though. I know some locals and they are not thrilled with the crowding. If you do go, be sure to visit Strawberry Hotsprings, the Old Town Hotsprings, and at least do an afternoon or evening at Howelsen Hill (the oldest continuously operating ski area in Colorado). Historically, Sundays are free ski days for everyone at Howelsen Hill. Ohana makes some really cool LOCAL souvenir wear. A stop to the historic F.M. Light and Sons on Main Street is a must to get that Stetson hat or western wear.

Honestly I think the Wild Blue is overkill. It will help with moving folks out of the base, but when you consider that there was a six-pack, a learner double, and a gondola there already, then it should give you pause to consider what that says about crowding. Portions of the base area will remind you of the ASC days. Be sure to hit up the T-Bar upslope of the base area. It is a cool locals hole-in-the-wall bar.

Having skied there now about ten days, I like it largely because of the town. Midweek non-holiday is still pretty manageable. Good variety, nice lifts, great views, really friendly folks, real western feel, and decent snow. The ski area itself feels like a combination of Stratton and Killington in that it is large, has a lot of cruisers, and different areas with different aspects and terrain. The backside is pretty underwhelming IMHO. The expert terrain is disappointing in my mind as a western skier for a decade now. There are no real open bowls or wide-open skiing. Frontside expert stuff has good pitch but it seems that they are all just bump runs. Backside stuff starts off with a nice drop but soon mellows out to flat gladed terrain and runouts. The hike-to options off the summit require minimal effort, have a couple gnarly chutes and pitches, while other aspects offer some good pitched terrain, but overall these runs are short and all dump out onto a groomed traverse loop that can be a long ways to get back to the main runs. Lots of groomed skiing that is fun for all levels, but it really feels like an east coast skiing experience in that regard, especially considering the snowmaking and grooming and that one cannot really "ski" the full vertical run after run because it really is 2 minor peaks and a high ridgeline with terrain off that ridgeline funneling to a couple escape routes on looker's left that wrap around and meander back down the frontside to the base area.

As the wise Bob R says, "it is what it is."


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The ski area itself feels like a combination of Stratton and Killington


It’s Killington with a lot better snow. What’s not to like?


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> If you do go, be sure to visit Strawberry Hotsprings, the Old Town Hotsprings,


Strawberry Hot Springs is awesome, I’d recommend that over Old Town for a more natural hot spring. Little ways out of town though so in the winter its harder to access and you need 4wd to get up the hill.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2022)

abc said:


> It’s Killington with a lot better snow. What’s not to like?


I like it for what it is. I just know that folks from the NE who come out west might be disappointed with groomed snowmaking runs as opposed to big western terrain.


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I like it for what it is. I just know that folks from the NE who come out west might be disappointed with groomed snowmaking runs as opposed to big western terrain.


Agree

On the other hand, not everyone is able to handle “big western terrain”. Similar terrain with much better snow can actually be more enjoyable to many.


----------



## 4aprice (Nov 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I like it for what it is. I just know that folks from the NE who come out west might be disappointed with groomed snowmaking runs as opposed to big western terrain.


Steamboat is lower in elevation.   My experience has been that in March, (the only month I've been in Steamboat) they take more of a beating from nature then say the Summit County resorts.  Have seen some pretty good hard pack there down below the top of the gondola, but have also had some good times on the upper areas. But if by "big western terrain" you mean bowls and chutes, Steamboat's not the place.  Town is "vacation-worthy"  for sure.

This is where Steamboat shines.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 13, 2022)

A western Killington is a good analogy.   I had always thought that Breck would be the first place I take my wife out west.  After going to Steamboat, Its definitely going to be there.  Great town and good skiing for all abilities.  I had a 2 pretty good hike to runs when I was there.   that runout is long...   Its definitely all about the trees and bumps.  Cool that you can fly directly into Yampa Valley from a lot of places now.


----------



## Edd (Nov 13, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> A western Killington is a good analogy.   I had always thought that Breck would be the first place I take my wife out west.  After going to Steamboat, Its definitely going to be there.  Great town and good skiing for all abilities.  I had a 2 pretty good hike to runs when I was there.   that runout is long...   Its definitely all about the trees and bumps.  Cool that you can fly directly into Yampa Valley from a lot of places now.


Hmm, only skied one day at Breck and about 7 at Steamboat. I think Breck is easier to navigate, but stupid crowds, even compared to the Boat.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 13, 2022)

Yes Breck is much more compartmentalized, for sure.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 13, 2022)

yea, nice open aspen glade skiing but overall pretty intermediate and boring. i would not make a point of going back to steamboat for the skiing. when we were in steamboat we left our hotel to go to dinner and had to wait in the lobby for like 20 min while a moose licked every last bit of salt off our rental car


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> intermediate and boring


What’s “boring“ for the ”expert” wannabe, it’s heavens for the intermediate. 

Steamboat also gets a lot of early season snow. When everybody else is moaning about the WROD in other mountains in mid-December, Steamboat could be nearly fully open and faceshot worthy. But the ‘boat lovers largely keep quiet about it. 

And if the so call “expert” herd are not heading over there in droves (and elbowing their way to get in more runs), the low key ‘intermediates’ are happy to have the mountains all to themselves to enjoy, leisurely.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 13, 2022)

abc said:


> What’s “boring“ for the ”expert” wannabe, it’s heavens for the intermediate.
> 
> Steamboat also gets a lot of early season snow. When everybody else is moaning about the WROD in other mountains in mid-December, Steamboat could be nearly fully open and faceshot worthy. But the ‘boat lovers largely keep quiet about it.
> 
> And if the so call “expert” herd are not heading over there in droves (and elbowing their way to get in more runs), the low key ‘intermediates’ are happy to have the mountains all to themselves to enjoy, leisurely.


Yep, Steamboat is a great bet for early. Those short cold days, a good early pattern and the fact that the place doesn't need a ton of snow to fill makes it great. I like the skiing even though there's not much too challenging...although it has some pretty long bump runs and Pioneer (which does need a bit of base) is real fun.


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Nov 13, 2022)

abc said:


> What’s “boring“ for the ”expert” wannabe, it’s heavens for the intermediate.
> 
> Steamboat also gets a lot of early season snow. When everybody else is moaning about the WROD in other mountains in mid-December, Steamboat could be nearly fully open and faceshot worthy. But the ‘boat lovers largely keep quiet about it.
> 
> And if the so call “expert” herd are not heading over there in droves (and elbowing their way to get in more runs), the low key ‘intermediates’ are happy to have the mountains all to themselves to enjoy, leisurely.


well to be fair there are a LOT more intermediates than experts. plus, experts will only elbow the intermediates lol


----------



## machski (Nov 13, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Steamboat is a great town. Lots to do and still authentic. It is slowly changing though. I know some locals and they are not thrilled with the crowding. If you do go, be sure to visit Strawberry Hotsprings, the Old Town Hotsprings, and at least do an afternoon or evening at Howelsen Hill (the oldest continuously operating ski area in Colorado). Historically, Sundays are free ski days for everyone at Howelsen Hill. Ohana makes some really cool LOCAL souvenir wear. A stop to the historic F.M. Light and Sons on Main Street is a must to get that Stetson hat or western wear.
> 
> Honestly I think the Wild Blue is overkill. It will help with moving folks out of the base, but when you consider that there was a six-pack, a learner double, and a gondola there already, then it should give you pause to consider what that says about crowding. Portions of the base area will remind you of the ASC days. Be sure to hit up the T-Bar upslope of the base area. It is a cool locals hole-in-the-wall bar.
> 
> ...


Not exactly fair with regards to crowding out of the base.  Since you base in LCC to some extent, imagine Snowbird of even Alta with only one single base portal.  How would that work out?  That has always been Steamboat's one Achilles in my opinion, that one single portal (even with the six and original gondi.  I do not count the beginner lift as it really gets you no where out of the base).  Once you are uphill, there are a bunch of ways and lifts to Dan out on but the single base has always been a huge choke point.  While Wild Blue doesn't open a second base access point, it will nearly double the capacity out of the singular base.  So if you cannot build a second portal, this is probably a pretty good option IMHO.

As of now, the expert terrain is lacking but the trees are fantastic.  Will wait to see what the Pioneer ridge expansion opens up for true expert terrain.

Strawberry hot springs for sure.  Been a while since we were there, they used to run 4x4 buses to there quite often from the village proper so 4x4 rental car might not be required.  Clothing optional after dark.


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> well to be fair there are a LOT more intermediates than experts. plus, experts will only elbow the intermediates lol


I ski the best snow, not the hardest terrain. 

Steamboat has snow as dry and as fluffy as the Utah mountains, but without the insane mad dash up LCC/BCC canyon drive.

I won’t bother making excuses for the lack of “expert terrain” at the ‘boat. That’s not what it appeals to me. Not everyone needs to ski the hardest terrain they can find. Nor do I need any excuse for not chasing the hardest terrain either.

There’re a lot of other “intermediate and boring” mountains the expert wannabe wouldn’t go. That’s fine by me. Hope that’s fine for all the other intermediates who aren’t too ashamed to admit they like the relaxed experience.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

Who gives a shit what level skier/boarder you are, as long as you’re having fun and not hurting other thats what matters.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

If people want to think they’re “too good” to ski somewhere let them, more fresh snow for me.


----------



## joshua segal (Nov 14, 2022)

abc said:


> What’s “boring“ for the ”expert” wannabe, it’s heavens for the intermediate.
> 
> Steamboat also gets a lot of early season snow. When everybody else is moaning about the WROD in other mountains in mid-December, Steamboat could be nearly fully open and faceshot worthy. But the ‘boat lovers largely keep quiet about it.
> 
> And if the so call “expert” herd are not heading over there in droves (and elbowing their way to get in more runs), the low key ‘intermediates’ are happy to have the mountains all to themselves to enjoy, leisurely.


I was skiing with one of the best skiers I know, whom I consider to be my mentor. It was Killington She wanted to take a run on the South Ridge where the lift wasn't running.

I said, "Yes, it's a nice run, but once you get to the bottom, there is that long, boring and tedious flat stretch back to the base of Bear Peak." 

She said, "You're sliding on snow.  What can be boring about that?"

There are many levels to be an expert skier.  Sometimes, the spiritual is more important than the physical.


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 14, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I was skiing with one of the best skiers I know, whom I consider to be my mentor. It was Killington She wanted to take a run on the South Ridge where the lift wasn't running.
> 
> I said, "Yes, it's a nice run, but once you get to the bottom, there is that long, boring and tedious flat stretch back to the base of Bear Peak."
> 
> ...


Quoted for truth! Love this post!


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 14, 2022)

My expert thoughts are "I am not an expert and will never be" I am an advanced intermediate, dam it. There's always room to grow. As an old man my goal is to ski from open to close and leave it ALL on the mountain (except for gloves, etc) and then hangout on the mountain and NOT in the emergency room. I've never been hurt skiing and I've done my share of crazy sh!t.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 14, 2022)

Guns just started up at The Cat. Fri is a go
May have a soft opening for some (wink, wink) Thurs


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Guns just started up at The Cat. Fri is a go
> May have a soft opening for some (wink, wink) Thurs


I will be interested to hear how opening day is if they open.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 14, 2022)

So...what is considered...an expert?


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 14, 2022)

In my opinion an expert has to have their technique down pretty well and apply different approaches for different situations. Should also be able to ski any marked trail and assess the fall line, snow quality, best line, obstructions, ect. while skiing.

Its not all about how “difficult” what you can ski is but how well you can ski it.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 14, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> So...what is considered...an expert?



A good skier can ski any trail with good technique in good conditions.  An expert skier can ski any trail in poor conditions with perfect technique.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Guns just started up at The Cat. Fri is a go
> May have a soft opening for some (wink, wink) Thurs


They’re called Epic Snow Guns.


----------



## joshua segal (Nov 15, 2022)

ss20 said:


> A good skier can ski any trail with good technique in good conditions.  An expert skier can ski any trail in poor conditions with perfect technique.


I would suggest that an advanced skier can look good skiing any trail (including moguls) in good conditions. 

The expert looks OK in less than ideal conditions.

There are many a day when I know there are experts on the mountain when nobody is skiing certain trails.

I remember at one advanced PSIA bump clinic, the instructor at the start of the clinic, asked, “Is there something you would particularly like to learn?”

I replied, “Yes.”  Pointing to the Cascade Headwall at Killington, I asked, “What do you do when you come to icy moguls with knife edges like that?”

He replied, “That’s easy.  You pick a different trail.”


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 15, 2022)

I think a lot of us are experts by now. If you've been doing this for a long time. But God forbid you use that term!


----------



## drjeff (Nov 15, 2022)

I think the other concept that gets thrown into the discussion is an "expert" not an "expert" if you have 2 people skiing same challneging terrain, with equally strong technique, but one does it at a much quicker speed than the other? 

Technique I think is more important than speed


----------



## slatham (Nov 15, 2022)

It's that time of year to check different areas web sites for Cam shots etc of the snow/snowmaking.

The Vail resorts are beyond lame. With all the resources of Vail thats what the come up with? Both web site and cams. Fail. I think they don't really care about the hard core ski fans.

But then again its all theorecitcal - I will not be skiing any Vail resorts this year. Real disappointing that Mt Snow and Stowe are off the list. But that is the state of the industry in 22/23. Pick your pass and stay away from other resorts.


----------



## abc (Nov 15, 2022)

It may even be beyond ”don’t care”. I always wonders if Vail deliberately making web cams unavailable when it would otherwise show how bad the condition (crowd, poor coverage) really are?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Nov 15, 2022)

They always have some kind of plan..in their best interests...not yours..at all..


----------



## drjeff (Nov 15, 2022)

slatham said:


> It's that time of year to check different areas web sites for Cam shots etc of the snow/snowmaking.
> 
> The Vail resorts are beyond lame. With all the resources of Vail thats what the come up with? Both web site and cams. Fail. I think they don't really care about the hard core ski fans.
> 
> But then again its all theorecitcal - I will not be skiing any Vail resorts this year. Real disappointing that Mt Snow and Stowe are off the list. But that is the state of the industry in 22/23. Pick your pass and stay away from other resorts.



Incredibly enough, they actually turned the summit webcam at Mount Snow that looks down/across the main face from it's perch atop the top terminal of the Grand Summit Express and the base area webcam located on the base terminal of the Grand Summit back on today. Those cameras have been offline since the end of last season


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 15, 2022)

slatham said:


> I think they don't really care about the hard core ski fans.


They’ve made it more than clear through their actions that they don’t care about hardcore ski fans. Doesn’t mean I won’t make the best of it and ski where I want. Besides the paid parking I don’t think they've done terrible at Mount Snow.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’ve made it more than clear through their actions that they don’t care about hardcore ski fans. Doesn’t mean I won’t make the best of it and ski where I want. Besides the paid parking I don’t think they've done terrible at Mount Snow.


They definitely run more lifts more often than Peak did, so I'm quite happy about that.  Should be an interesting season.  I have no clue how the crowds will spread out, but pretty sure the North Face will be even more dead than it already was.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 15, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’ve made it more than clear through their actions that they don’t care about hardcore ski fans. Doesn’t mean I won’t make the best of it and ski where I want. Besides the paid parking I don’t think they've done terrible at Mount Snow.


Did Mount Snow have a parking problem prior to Vail expending the paid spots or was it simply a way to generate income? The issue with Stowe's paid parking has more to do with how far away the free lots are from the lifts.


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## drjeff (Nov 15, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Did Mount Snow have a parking problem prior to Vail expending the paid spots or was it simply a way to generate income? The issue with Stowe's paid parking has more to do with how far away the free lots are from the lifts.



Definitely had a parking problems for years, and on more Saturdays and some Sundays than not over the majority of the season, prior to Vail expanding the quantity of paid lots last season.  Mount Snow could realistically benefit from another few hundred parking spaces somewhere near any of their current lots to handle the demand on many a busy day.  However unless the State lets them completely fill in Snow Lake and turn it into a parking lot, rather than return it's natural stream/wetlands area designation, which there's no way that would be allowed, there just isn't enough flat, reasonably size spaces near their base lodges to do so, short of them spending millions on a parking garage, which I also doubt will happen, or if it eventually does, it will be a VERY long time out in the future


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 15, 2022)

The parking has definitely always been a shitshow on weekends. My bigger issue with the paid parking is that you still have to pay weekdays for good spots even though the lots are no where near capacity. Also the fact that the entirety of Carinthia is paid on weekends sucks even though I don’t use the terrain park personally.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2022)

Paid parking midweek other than Christmas week is a joke anywhere in the East.  That's all about making money and not trying to solve problems as they want us to believe.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Definitely had a parking problems for years, and on more Saturdays and some Sundays than not over the majority of the season, prior to Vail expanding the quantity of paid lots last season.  Mount Snow could realistically benefit from another few hundred parking spaces somewhere near any of their current lots to handle the demand on many a busy day.  However unless the State lets them completely fill in Snow Lake and turn it into a parking lot, rather than return it's natural stream/wetlands area designation, which there's no way that would be allowed, there just isn't enough flat, reasonably size spaces near their base lodges to do so, short of them spending millions on a parking garage, which I also doubt will happen, or if it eventually does, it will be a VERY long time out in the future


So with Vail expanding the paid parking, the parking situation has gotten better. How about crowding since Vail expanded the paid parking? Has that gotten worst or better? Since the Mount Snow paid parking doesn't have the 4 person carpool benefit, I'm just wondering if people are still trying to carpool just to save on parking fees. My fear at Stowe is the cross country and toll house lots will fill up fast with 4 people parking their own cars and pilling into one car to head up to the Mansfield lots for free parking. That would very much disrupt the flow of traffic and potentially result in a lot of people showing up at 9am to be forced to pay for parking since the free lots are full.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 15, 2022)

mbedle said:


> So with Vail expanding the paid parking, the parking situation has gotten better. How about crowding since Vail expanded the paid parking? Has that gotten worst or better? Since the Mount Snow paid parking doesn't have the 4 person carpool benefit, I'm just wondering if people are still trying to carpool just to save on parking fees. My fear at Stowe is the cross country and toll house lots will fill up fast with 4 people parking their own cars and pilling into one car to head up to the Mansfield lots for free parking. That would very much disrupt the flow of traffic and potentially result in a lot of people showing up at 9am to be forced to pay for parking since the free lots are full.




Pure anecdotal stuff on my part.  And for disclosure, my family had a parking pass before the widespread pay to park system went in place last year, we had the same parking pass last year, and renewed it for this year, and BTW Vail only raised the cost of the season parking pass $25 or $30 over what Peak was charging before, and now it's good way more days and in way more lots, so for those of use who had them, liked them, and still buy them, we are happy with them.

Crowding to me atleast, while still an issue, seemed not as bad at Mount Snow last year. Granted after the previous COVID season where chairs weren't being loaded at full capacity, tat may have also factored into my perception of it not being as bad. Additionally, to me atleast, BUSY days felt slightly less busy to me than BUSY days in prior years. Again the prior COVID restrictions season may have factored into my perception of last season.  The other factor that may have played into my perception is with my days generally being weekends and holidays as I don't have a job where working remotely is feasible for abut 98% of what I do, wheras others who do have the ability to WFH have had the option in some cases to be able to spend more of their days midweek vs weekends, and some of that seems to be inline from what I heard from my live at the mountain all season long friends where the midweek crowds seemed larger than historical average to them.  Just a bunch of variables that can affect how the paid parking thing does or doesn't improve on hill crowding


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## 2Planker (Nov 15, 2022)

Attitash was a huge Shit Show last year. 
They even towed the Parking monitor guy's truck. Not once,  but twice.

 Wildcat was no problem. They had a Paid parking lot for a while, but no attendant was usually there.
Parked the Winnie there for 7 days in March. No issue at all


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2022)

Surprised Sunapee didn’t have a paid lot at least on weekends. Heard about shit shows there.
Also Sunapee is not blowing snow.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 15, 2022)

What trails are they blowing snow at the cat


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## Mainer (Nov 17, 2022)

Wildcat not opening this weekend. Will know next Tuesday when they are.


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## SLyardsale (Nov 17, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Wildcat not opening this weekend. Will know next Tuesday when they are.


planker may need a wellness check


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## 2Planker (Nov 17, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> planker may need a wellness check


No worries, wifey and her clan changed the plans again...
 Probably won't get back up till after the holiday


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Wildcat not opening this weekend. Will know next Tuesday when they are.


Epic Fail.


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Epic Fail.
> 
> View attachment 55078


no, they used emojis! which means they're cool and relatable


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## doublediamond (Nov 18, 2022)

More Lynx pipe troubles? Why would you try to open on a longer route (9200’ vs 8200’) including having snow made across the whole base for a second year in a row?


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## Mainer (Nov 18, 2022)

I had to laugh. For some reason I thought wildcat was going to open on time, I don’t know why.  Another year of vail being vail. I’m just glad I didn’t get an epic pass this year.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 18, 2022)

It’s funny their @Skiwildcat page is updated but their other page and website are not. Hope nobody shows up thinking it’s open.


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## Edd (Nov 18, 2022)

Wildcat is talking about a mug club this year. Now, you'd assume that means the bar will be open, but they've taught me to assume nothing. They could just be selling mugs


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## ThatGuy (Nov 18, 2022)

Edd said:


> Wildcat is talking about a mug club this year. Now, you'd assume that means the bar will be open, but they've taught me to assume nothing. They could just be selling mugs


Assuming too much, you pay them to have the privilege of bringing you own mug


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## snoseek (Nov 19, 2022)

Edd said:


> Wildcat is talking about a mug club this year. Now, you'd assume that means the bar will be open, but they've taught me to assume nothing. They could just be selling mugs


I'm going out on a limb and saying they will be staffed up better this year. That bar prints money like any other ski area bar. 

Not saying vail ain't gonna do some stupid vail shit but I don't think it's gonna be anything remotely similar to the past couple years.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2022)

I miss my my mug club days.  Had one all 5 years.  Thought I'd never move on from there as my home mountain.  Ce la vi


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## snoseek (Nov 21, 2022)

Wildcat Opening Thursday 2100 vert good news, things are at least starting better.


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## snoseek (Nov 21, 2022)

I am passless right now specifically because I want to see how things play out early on. t2b on Thanksgiving has me forgetting the disaster that was last season...I've known all along things would improve. 

I ski M,T,W this year fwiw so the epic liftline stuff doesn't bother me. Cannon pass is a given as usual.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Wildcat Opening Thursday 2100 vert good news, things are at least starting better.


But are they….?


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## snoseek (Nov 21, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> But are they….?


I mean they released a vid so I'm gonna assume yes. Last year there was no attempt and no staff.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 21, 2022)

At that point you’d think just give the employees Thanksgiving off and open Friday! That used to be the tradition at the Cat!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I mean they released a vid so I'm gonna assume yes. Last year there was no attempt and no staff.


Well they were all Gung Ho about opening last week and didn’t make it.

Hopefully that was a one-off. Wildcat fans need some love.


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## Mainer (Nov 22, 2022)

The kitty is starting better than last year. Will they run all their lifts when all the parking lots are full and having people park at great glen trails. Because it sucks to
wait in a 45 minute line and all the lifts are not running. I still have ptsd from the last 2 years there.


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## danimals (Nov 22, 2022)

Mountain High is bringing back the classic "Mac vs PC" videos, but with an independent vs mega pass twist. pretty funny.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> At that point you’d think just give the employees Thanksgiving off and open Friday! That used to be the tradition at the Cat!



I can think of nothing more Vail than blowing it on an announced opening day and moving it to a holiday.

And they wonder why they have such a hard time recruiting people.


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## bigbob (Nov 22, 2022)

I wonder if Attatash and Wildcat are sharing the same snowmakers?


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## eatskisleep (Nov 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I can think of nothing more Vail than blowing it on an announced opening day and moving it to a holiday.
> 
> And they wonder why they have such a hard time recruiting people.


Yeah that’s true, this is 100% another Vail Fail


----------



## skiur (Nov 23, 2022)

bigbob said:


> I wonder if Attatash and Wildcat are sharing the same snowmakers?



Has any snow been made at attitash this year?  If so was it the same day they were blowing snow at wildcat?


----------



## eatskisleep (Nov 23, 2022)




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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2022)

Vail’s slide in resort rankings has no impact on visitation, business leaders say
					

Each year, various national magazines compile rankings for top destinations, hotels and ski resorts. This year, Vail Mountain fell off the Top Ski Areas in North America list from Condé Nast Traveler and maintained its...




					www.vaildaily.com


----------



## ss20 (Nov 23, 2022)

danimals said:


> Mountain High is bringing back the classic "Mac vs PC" videos, but with an independent vs mega pass twist. pretty funny.



Wow.  Those are HILARIOUS!


----------



## Mum skier (Nov 23, 2022)

Did anyone go to Sunapee today for opening day? Hoping to go Sunday . Meant to rain, but ok if it puts people off. Just need to get one run done so I can say I skied in November.


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## snoseek (Nov 24, 2022)

Fuck it I bought an epic vet again mostly so I can ski wildcat and also stowe. I feel fairly confident things will improve over last year. Same as last year I will not give them 1 dollar beyond the pass. I'll pack a lunch and of I want a beer I'll do it in the parking lot. Vail still sucks however.


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## Mainer (Nov 24, 2022)

$20 an hour and no vax mandate should get them all the employees they need. That’s more $ than most jobs are advertising in the Conway daily sun. Will they hire enough people or cut corners because they  don’t want to pay a lot of people that much is the question.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 24, 2022)

Mount Snow is visibly well staffed. Don’t know if the same goes for the MWV but time will tell.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2022)

So did Wildcat open?


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## chuckstah (Nov 24, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> Did anyone go to Sunapee today for opening day? Hoping to go Sunday . Meant to rain, but ok if it puts people off. Just need to get one run done so I can say I skied in November.


I went this morning. One run open from the top with a small diversion to mix it up. Firm and fast. Too many beginners with no terrain for them, but not bad. Good coverage and nobody there.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So did Wildcat open?


Yes


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## Mum skier (Nov 27, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> I went this morning. One run open from the top with a small diversion to mix it up. Firm and fast. Too many beginners with no terrain for them, but not bad. Good coverage and nobody there.
> 
> View attachment 55156


So we went today. More staff there than skiers!  Only one run from top, but at least they made the effort to have a carpet in the beginner area set up.  I am hopeful the staffing issues will be better this year.  Certainly lots of staff today for training etc.  Summit lodge is open for hot food, drinks and even a bar with 3 beers on tap!  So hopefully that will spread out some of the lunch time crowds compared to last year.  Snow was pretty good really, not worth a long drive for limited area but we were close by for other reasons so spent a couple hours.  But rain started as we were leaving.  But did not suck.


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## snoseek (Nov 29, 2022)

At wildcat today and it's not a disaster. Resurfacing existing terrain and blowing to be able to use tomcat chair. Lots of staff around and just a handful of skiers. I think it might be a good year. Plz snow soon!


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## 2Planker (Nov 29, 2022)

snoseek said:


> At wildcat today and it's not a disaster. Resurfacing existing terrain and blowing to be able to use tomcat chair. Lots of staff around and just a handful of skiers. I think it might be a good year. Plz snow soon!


Good to hear
P/U my new boards next week. Will wait a lil till coverage improves though.

Thank god for Rock Skis


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 29, 2022)

Vail got 9" in last 24hrs. 

They're doing something right.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2022)

Means nothing since no EPIC pass holder will be turned away and nobody buys day tickets anymore. But hey, it’s PR!









						Stowe Resort unveils new ticket policy for peak days
					

If you’re looking to ski Stowe this year during popular weekends, the resort is trying something new.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## Mainer (Dec 3, 2022)

Epic has been saying this for the last couple years. The capacity number is always ridiculous. They will probably stop selling tickets one day during mlk and presidents weekend. Just another scare tactic to get people to pre purchase  tickets.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2022)

Mainer said:


> Epic has been saying this for the last couple years. The capacity number is always ridiculous. They will probably stop selling tickets one day during mlk and presidents weekend. Just another scare tactic to get people to pre purchase  tickets.


.....or buy the Epic season pass.

I also think that a part of this ploy is to make Wall Street think that Vail is killing it so much that they HAVE to limit ticket sales.


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## doublediamond (Dec 4, 2022)

Yes they’ve been saying this for a few years. Yes the capacity numbers are ridiculous. There has been several instances of hour waits at lifts and they are still selling walk up tickets.


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## BodeMiller1 (Dec 5, 2022)

There's gold in them there hills....


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 7, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> Yes they’ve been saying this for a few years. Yes the capacity numbers are ridiculous. There has been several instances of hour waits at lifts and they are still selling walk up tickets.


It appears that way too many people are willing to accept these lines and pay the price.  The demand, like it or not, exceeds the supply.  It brings to mind my favorite skiing oxymoron: "no one skis there.  It's too crowded."

With the stock price of Vail (MTN) up 20% since the summer, it appears that their corporate marketing strategy is working.


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## urungus (Dec 7, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> It appears that way too many people are willing to accept these lines and pay the price.  The demand, like it or not, exceeds the supply.  It brings to mind my favorite skiing oxymoron: "no one skis there.  It's too crowded."
> 
> With the stock price of Vail (MTN) up 20% since the summer, it appears that their corporate marketing strategy is working.


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 8, 2022)

urungus said:


> View attachment 55225


Haha.  Thanks for that comment. I had no idea that it was a Yogi Berra-ism!


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 8, 2022)

Any yellow jackets at Eastern properties?


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 8, 2022)

Vail stock price is going up..revenue and profits going up...
Guess they are doing something right...just not for us...unless...you own their stock.
Thats..the bottom line..


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## drjeff (Dec 8, 2022)

The "100,000 ft view" bottom line is the Ski Industry as a whole (and not just Vail Resorts) survived the pandemic. If anything the fact that you could actually get outside and ski, especially in the '20-'21 season when so many other things still weren't relatively normal, it gave people the chance to either ski/ride more than they may have in the past, or actually try skiing/riding for the 1st time and find out they enjoyed the sport. It seems to have created more demand than has been around in a long time to get out at most every ski resort more often and enjoy the sport.  Not a bad thing at all for the economic health of the industry to have a more engaged customer base wanting to enjoy the sport more often.  Even if that means that some old timers will complain about more people on the hill and how "it's not the same" as it used to be.

Sometimes things will change. If they didn't we'd still be watching movies at home via VHS or Betamax cassettes


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Dec 8, 2022)

Vail is listed on the New York Stock Ex.   *MTN*

It's off $7.00 at the bell.

I don't have anything against the company, hey rich people need to ski too - (pose, conspicuous consumption, etc.) Hey, build out the mountains and go back out west. (Think American Ski Co.) Don't let the door hit you on the way out.   Meow

Choices:      A) Catch a falling knife.
                    B) Buy MTN.
                    C) Make your own Pumpkin Pie from scratch.
                    D) Burn your T.V. in your yard.
                    E) Go back to Rockville.
                    F) None of the above.

The correct answer is F buy: Buy Ford Motor Co.       Detroit. MI


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## 4aprice (Dec 9, 2022)

drjeff said:


> The "100,000 ft view" bottom line is the Ski Industry as a whole (and not just Vail Resorts) survived the pandemic. If anything the fact that you could actually get outside and ski, especially in the '20-'21 season when so many other things still weren't relatively normal, it gave people the chance to either ski/ride more than they may have in the past, or actually try skiing/riding for the 1st time and find out they enjoyed the sport. It seems to have created more demand than has been around in a long time to get out at most every ski resort more often and enjoy the sport.  Not a bad thing at all for the economic health of the industry to have a more engaged customer base wanting to enjoy the sport more often.  Even if that means that some old timers will complain about more people on the hill and how "it's not the same" as it used to be.
> 
> Sometimes things will change. If they didn't we'd still be watching movies at home via VHS or Betamax cassettes


I agree with you Drjeff.  While this thread focuses on Epic or Vail and I guess to some extent the competition, Alterra, I'm not seeing a whole lot of failure going on in the ski industry right now.  Just read a article in the Denver Post that focused on the smaller resorts (or the Ski Colorado "Gems") and the GM's (including I Believe AZ friend Bushmogulmaster at Cooper) were all saying they were pretty healthy.  See it here in the Pocono's even with paid parking and reservations, the parking lots on weekends are full.  I don't follow the numbers in ski equipment sales including clothing, but I was at a large sale this fall and there were crowds of people there.  Seems to me the sport has experienced a growth spurt what ever the reason.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2022)

Vail Resorts' 1st Qtr 2023 Results | Made $137 Million Loss, Total Epic Pass Sales Down 12% on Last Season - SnowBrains
					

Vail Resorts yesterday reported financials for the 1st quarter of fiscal 2023, which ended October 31st, 2022. The company has sold 2.3million




					snowbrains.com


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Dec 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail Resorts' 1st Qtr 2023 Results | Made $137 Million Loss, Total Epic Pass Sales Down 12% on Last Season - SnowBrains
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts yesterday reported financials for the 1st quarter of fiscal 2023, which ended October 31st, 2022. The company has sold 2.3million
> ...


I really don't understand how they report on a year we're not in yet. Car companies do it (release next year's models early) butt it's just odd. Odd is not good.

Pass sales down ​A loss in the fall makes since for a ski co. ​​*What I got out of it was on the side-bar. Klaus Obermeyer is still skiing at 102. *​


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 9, 2022)

a fiscal year doesnt need to coincide with a calendar year.

at work we are in FY23Q2 right now. our fiscal year starts july 1. so does vail's.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Dec 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a fiscal year doesnt need to coincide with a calendar year.
> 
> at work we are in FY23Q2 right now. our fiscal year starts july 1.


Seems out of GAAP, butt yea still seems weird. I do accrual accounting so I can work back 5 years or forward 2 or so. When you go back you have to reopen the gates  and restate, close remail. pain in the but. going forward, pretty much booking fixed cost and trying to predict the future.

I used to work on closed - end funds out of Turkey. Their currency isn't worth much so we had to cut and paste for 40 clients. Accounting is all computer driven these days. So you basically process exceptions and keep regulators and auditors at bay.

At the end of the day, joe 6pack should be able to read and understand...


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Dec 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a fiscal year doesnt need to coincide with a calendar year.
> 
> at work we are in FY23Q2 right now. our fiscal year starts july 1. so does vail's.



Why does your company do this. What is the advantage?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 9, 2022)

im not finance/accounting, so i dont really know why we do it that way, just that we do and that it is common.

for many, including vail, it has to do with the seasonality of their businesses, i think.

the us govt fiscal year is oct 1 to sept 30 or something weird too.

investopedia -->
"Why Use a Fiscal Year Instead of a Calendar Year?​For companies that operate on a seasonal basis, using a fiscal year may be beneficial. This is because it may provide a more accurate reflection of the company’s operations, allowing for revenues and expenses to better align. For instance, it is common for retail companies to end their fiscal year on Jan. 31, after the holiday season has ended. Walmart and Target are two primary examples of companies that use this fiscal year."


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Dec 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im not finance/accounting, so i dont really know why we do it that way, just that we do and that it is common.
> 
> for many, including vail, it has to do with the seasonality of their businesses, i think.
> 
> ...


Thanks, and I'm not the master of the accounting universe. The people out of Bentley U. are the best. Whenever I hear that name I try and learn as much as I can...

Like skiing with better... (you get what I'm saying)


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 9, 2022)

I'm not sure what all the financial mumbo-jumbo means, but Vail stock was up almost 3% today, closing at 258.67. I suspect if the financials were interpreted correctly, we would discover something good about that quarterly report.


----------



## Edd (Dec 9, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Why does your company do this. What is the advantage?


Not uncommon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> a fiscal year doesnt need to coincide with a calendar year.
> 
> at work we are in FY23Q2 right now. our fiscal year starts july 1. so does vail's.


Correct


----------



## SLyardsale (Dec 9, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I'm not sure what all the financial mumbo-jumbo means, but Vail stock was up almost 3% today, closing at 258.67. I suspect if the financials were interpreted correctly, we would discover something good about that quarterly report.


its a snapshot in time. how much do you hold in MTN ?


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 9, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> its a snapshot in time. how much do you hold in MTN ?


Negligible. If I owned a lot, I would make it my business to understand the annual and quarterly reports!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2022)

Some interesting quotes….

This is too funny!


> An earnings call scheduled for Thursday was delayed due to technical difficulties, but a preview of Vail Resorts’ CEO Kirstin Lynch’s comments was provided in Thursday’s release.





> “Our North American season pass program has grown dramatically over the past three years as *we have focused on our core strategy of shifting guests from lift tickets into advance commitment to drive stability and long-term value for the business.”*





> Lynch said Vail Resorts expects to have approximately 2.3 million guests in advance commitment pass products this year, generating over $800 million of revenue and representing over 70% of all skier visits committed. That represents an increase of more than 1.1 million guests in the program from the 2019/2020 season, Lynch said.





> said. “Our strongest growth occurred in destination markets, which represents the largest addressable market *for conversion of guests into advance commitment [\b]and is a particularly attractive guest segment given the higher ancillary attachment.”*






> *This represents substantial growth in our highest priced products and among our most penetrated high frequency skier segment, and we expected this year’s performance as a result of the significant growth after last year’s price reset,” Lynch said. “We continue to expect that the majority of the future growth in advance commitment will come from the large and attractive addressable market of destination guests, primarily through transitioning lower frequency lift ticket guests into Epic Day Pass products, and transitioning guests at our local and regional resorts into advance commitment.”*








*








						Vail Resorts sells 2.3 million pre-purchased passes for 2022-23 season
					

Vail Resorts on Thursday said the company expects to have 2.3 million people using its Epic, Epic Local and Epic Day passes this year. That’s a 6% increase over last year in the company’s pre-purchased...




					www.vaildaily.com
				




So, how many of you are “advance commitment” skiers/riders? “Season Pass” is so 2020…. *


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 10, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> *So, how many of you are “advance commitment” skiers/riders? “Season Pass” is so 2020…. *


They use the term Because advance commitment also means just pre bought day skiers not just season pass holders.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 11, 2022)

FourRunner having issues. Hopefully nothing crazy, mostly radio silence so far from Vail on what it is…









						Stowe Mountain Weather Report | Stowe
					

Get the latest Snow and Weather Report from Stowe.




					www.stowe.com
				




Also still charging to park with just the double running.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 11, 2022)

They are waiting for a part to come in…..


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> They use the term Because advance commitment also means just pre bought day skiers not just season pass holders.


True, but when you read the article it is clear that their main product is Epic Season Passes. That's what they are pushing people towards. We've talked about that here.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 11, 2022)

Stowe Mountain Resort on Instagram: "As we look ahead to the week, here’s a message from Bobby on the status of the FourRunner Quad. Please be sure to follow Epic Mix or StoweMtAlerts on Twitter, and our website, for the most up-to-date information t
					

Stowe Mountain Resort shared a post on Instagram: "As we look ahead to the week, here’s a message from Bobby on the status of the FourRunner Quad. Please be sure to follow Epic Mix or StoweMtAlerts on Twitter, and our website, for the most up-to-date information throughout the week.  "On...




					www.instagram.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Stowe Mountain Resort on Instagram: "As we look ahead to the week, here’s a message from Bobby on the status of the FourRunner Quad. Please be sure to follow Epic Mix or StoweMtAlerts on Twitter, and our website, for the most up-to-date information t
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort shared a post on Instagram: "As we look ahead to the week, here’s a message from Bobby on the status of the FourRunner Quad. Please be sure to follow Epic Mix or StoweMtAlerts on Twitter, and our website, for the most up-to-date information throughout the week.  "On...
> ...


Yeah I saw that. Not so Epic.


----------



## doublediamond (Dec 11, 2022)

Bearings don’t just fail. That’s a lack of maintenance. 100% on Vail management.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 11, 2022)

Where do you see anything about bearings failing?


----------



## doublediamond (Dec 12, 2022)

Read it on another forum. The post from the GM describes it as a “pulely” issue. If it’s not a bearing on either end of the pulley system for the diesel drive, then it’s the belt itself. Regardless… the minimalist of preventative maintenance would have spotted that issue prior to failure.  Bearings and belts both exhibit a lot of symptoms as they go bad… they don’t just catastrophically fail randomly. 

My 2 cents is they skimped on the summer lubrication to save a few cents and it bit their ass hard.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 12, 2022)

Seems crazy they'd continue to skimp after just killing an employee on a Zipline a couple of years ago due to poor maintenance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems crazy they'd continue to skimp after just killing an employee on a Zipline a couple of years ago due to poor maintenance.


It’s about maximizing profit and reducing costs….


----------



## doublediamond (Dec 12, 2022)

And profit now at expense to next quarter/year/etc  too


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 12, 2022)

Bearing maintenance costs almost nothing..
It's the easiest thing to do. And how many bearings in total do they have?
I had hundreds and all it took was quarterly lubing..
You would have to ignore it completely to have catastrophic failure. That's why I'm wondering how old these things are...eventually they need to be rebuilt...that's expensive...but still not as expensive as total failure. Preventative maintenance is much cheaper than reactive maintenance.


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 12, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> And profit now at expense to next quarter/year/etc  too


MTN stock was up another 1% today. So this is not scaring away investors.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 12, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> MTN stock was up another 1% today. So this is not scaring away investors.


I care more about skiers than investors.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> And profit now at expense to next quarter/year/etc  too





joshua segal said:


> MTN stock was up another 1% today. So this is not scaring away investors.



I mention the profit/cost point because the way Vail does business (as well as a lot of the industry) is to front-load the revenue through season pass sales and then try to make some more revenue during ski season on the ancillary businesses without losing their shirts. So, in the case of Stowe, Vail has already booked the sales and is trying to minimize how much of that $$$ they need to spend to operate. Does that mean that preventive maintenance goes by the wayside? I cannot say for sure. But I would expect downward pressure on operational costs to try to show better revenues.

And, with this being the START of Vail's fiscal year with the sales booked for all those pass sales with minimal operating expenses hitting the bottom line, of course Vail's stock is going to look good right now. I say take a look at that again in about three months or so.....


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 12, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I mention the profit/cost point because the way Vail does business (as well as a lot of the industry) is to front-load the revenue through season pass sales and then try to make some more revenue during ski season on the ancillary businesses without losing their shirts. So, in the case of Stowe, Vail has already booked the sales and is trying to minimize how much of that $$$ they need to spend to operate. Does that mean that preventive maintenance goes by the wayside? I cannot say for sure. But I would expect downward pressure on operational costs to try to show better revenues.
> 
> And, with this being the START of Vail's fiscal year with the sales booked for all those pass sales with minimal operating expenses hitting the bottom line, of course Vail's stock is going to look good right now. I say take a look at that again in about three months or so.....


Vail actually allocates lift revenue during the season when passes are redeemed, not sold. Case in point they only reported $59 million in lift revenue for the quarter just ended but $715 million in February-April last year.


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 13, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Bearing maintenance costs almost nothing..
> It's the easiest thing to do. And how many bearings in total do they have?
> I had hundreds and all it took was quarterly lubing..
> You would have to ignore it completely to have catastrophic failure. That's why I'm wondering how old these things are...eventually they need to be rebuilt...that's expensive...but still not as expensive as total failure. Preventative maintenance is much cheaper than reactive maintenance.


Kinda hard to do IF you're always hiring seasonal employees.... 
I'm pretty sure their Lifts Ops Manager/Director was vacant for the last few summers.
I'll bet there was very little preventive maintenance done soon after Vail took over.

Peaks did less than  minimal @ WC & AT, why would Vail do anything different ??


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 13, 2022)

Also a big problem with inexperienced mechanics is ...doing things wrong. Over greasing bearings is worse than under greasing them..It was one of my challenges teaching this. Along with simply not knowing how to deal with machinery in general. 
Lift maintenance looks like a brutal job...we did a lot of outside maintenance and it was a nightmare in the winter...


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 13, 2022)

thebigo said:


> I care more about skiers than investors.


So do I, but if skiers were that unhappy, it would show up in the corporation's bottom line.  While this thread is clearly fed by those who hate everything Vail, there appear to be 2.3 million Vail passholders who are OK with the product they are receiving.


----------



## MidnightJester (Dec 13, 2022)

SO Epic sales are down 12% hmmmmmmm. A lot of other Vail number with breakdowns by areas of income or loss and sales








						Vail Resorts' 1st Qtr 2023 Results | Made $137 Million Loss, Total Epic Pass Sales Down 12% on Last Season - SnowBrains
					

Vail Resorts yesterday reported financials for the 1st quarter of fiscal 2023, which ended October 31st, 2022. The company has sold 2.3million




					snowbrains.com


----------



## Vter (Dec 13, 2022)

Never forget the “Zip Line” failure !
People, friends and family lost a good one.

Ya, let’s talk it up about Vail economics on that piece…never forget, man.

I’m sick to my stomach how this resort/sport has changed.

Happy Hollidays, it going to snow and the $ will be flowing ! 

I’m Sad about the resort sport, but I love my Wife everyday, without her I’d missing a greased bearing. 
Skiing 1967-to ?


----------



## Edd (Dec 17, 2022)




----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 17, 2022)

Well that beats my epic fail sticker


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## hovercraft (Dec 17, 2022)

Funny part they are still going there.  Couldn’t be that much of an epic fail…….


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## ThatGuy (Dec 17, 2022)

More Stowe parking drama…


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2022)

Vail sucks!


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 17, 2022)

Wanted me fired due to uproar on social media...hmm
Did he talk about this on fb or twitter ?


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Wanted me fired due to uproar on social media...hmm
> Did he talk about this on fb or twitter ?


Sounds like people were bitching about him as he towed the company line.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 17, 2022)

Then that really sux...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2022)

That is a terrible job. Probably worse than driving a trash truck.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 18, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That is a terrible job. Probably worse than driving a trash truck.


Driving one seems better than hang off the side of one


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## RichT (Dec 18, 2022)

Vail still sucking 2022.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Driving one seems better than hang off the side of one


True. Although the ones I see don't have people heaving cans anymore.

And FWIW Interstate is the same company that manages Alta's parking system. Let's just say that the language on their website is not so cheery and friendly: https://www.altaparking.com/violations

It is very interesting that an outfit popped up in Breckenridge, of all places, to manage parking reservations at ski resorts.


----------



## skiur (Dec 18, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> True. Although the ones I see don't have people heaving cans anymore.
> 
> And FWIW Interstate is the same company that manages Alta's parking system. Let's just say that the language on their website is not so cheery and friendly: https://www.altaparking.com/violations
> 
> It is very interesting that an outfit popped up in Breckenridge, of all places, to manage parking reservations at ski resorts.



What happens if you don't pay your violation?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 18, 2022)

While I think it is terrible that someone would threaten physical abuse to a parking attendant/manager, I also don't particularly feel bad for the guy. He took a job knowing full well that 99% of the people he would interact with would hate paid parking (and if he somehow didn't think that would be the case...then he's very naïve). Who did he think they were going to take that anger out on? I also feel like there's probably more to the story than simply "Bobby wanted me fired because of the uproar on social media".


----------



## JimG. (Dec 18, 2022)

I guess I still understand why people want to ski at Stowe.
I have no clue why anyone would want to work for Vail though.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 18, 2022)

Talk to Hover...teaching has a ton of perks...


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Dec 18, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> More Stowe parking drama…
> View attachment 55354


lol i know oxcube...


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 18, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Talk to Hover...teaching has a ton of perks...


Those who can’t do, teach. 
 Seriously though, I was skinning up today through the beginner area and no instructor looked like they were having any fun. It takes a different kind of person than me to have the patience and want to help others. I want to ski when I am at a ski area not talk to people about skiing.


----------



## abc (Dec 18, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> It takes a different kind of person than me to have the patience and want to help others. I want to ski when I am at a ski area not talk to people about skiing.


There’re indeed two different kind of people in the world. Those who help others only as duty demands, and those who genuinely take pleasure in helping others. “Teachers” are by nature the latter. 

Too many ski instructors are not there to “help others”. They’re not “teachers”. They’re just…ski instructors.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 18, 2022)

I taught an engineering course for 18 years...it's not easy..


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## eatskisleep (Dec 18, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I guess I still understand why people want to ski at Stowe.
> I have no clue why anyone would want to work for Vail though.


Eh, the skiing there is overrated for the cost of a day ticket. Sure if you are a pass holder it is great, but otherwise no thanks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2022)

skiur said:


> What happens if you don't pay your violation?


For Alta:









						Alta Parking
					

Alta Parking Violations. Pay or Appeal your Alta Parking Violation Online.




					www.altaparking.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2022)

cdskier said:


> While I think it is terrible that someone would threaten physical abuse to a parking attendant/manager, I also don't particularly feel bad for the guy. He took a job knowing full well that 99% of the people he would interact with would hate paid parking (and if he somehow didn't think that would be the case...then he's very naïve). Who did he think they were going to take that anger out on? I also feel like there's probably more to the story than simply "Bobby wanted me fired because of the uproar on social media".


It all reminds me of this gem from the “Colbert Report”









						Difference Makers - The Free Keene Squad - The Colbert Report | Comedy Central US
					

Three New Hampshire men fight government tyranny by harassing parking meter attendants.




					www.cc.com


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 20, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Eh, the skiing there is overrated for the cost of a day ticket. Sure if you are a pass holder it is great, but otherwise no thanks.


Clearly Vail's model is to only make all their ski areas worth it only for
A. Pass Holders, and
B. Those who don't have to ask the price


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 20, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Eh, the skiing there is overrated for the cost of a day ticket. Sure if you are a pass holder it is great, but otherwise no thanks.



i disagree that stowe is overrated. in my opinion from a pure skiing terrain perspective, stowe is the best in the east. 

its tragic what vail has done to the place. it used to be worth the price of admission.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i disagree that stowe is overrated. in my opinion from a pure skiing terrain perspective, stowe is the best in the east.
> 
> its tragic what vail has done to the place. it used to be worth the price of admission.



Agreed.  Best combination of natural snow, terrain and infrastructure.  But it's just not worth the hassles to me anymore.  Vail has ruined it.

When my kids are older and good enough to appreciate the mountain, I'll take them there midweek.  But you'll likely never see me there on a weekend again.  Not unless they do more to decrease crowds


----------



## 0xCUBE (Dec 21, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> More Stowe parking drama…
> View attachment 55354


as the guy who got replied to, this was definitely weird. On the one hand, I found it strange that they made such a huge explanation with some...questionable opinions, and on the other hand, they spammed a similar thing to dozens of other comments regarding the Vail parking drama. Honestly hard to judge if it's real


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2022)

0xCUBE said:


> as the guy who got replied to, this was definitely weird. On the one hand, I found it strange that they made such a huge explanation with some...questionable opinions, and on the other hand, they spammed a similar thing to dozens of other comments regarding the Vail parking drama. Honestly hard to judge if it's real


I do wonder if it is a hoax.


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 21, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I guess I still understand why people want to ski at Stowe.
> I have no clue why anyone would want to work for Vail though.


Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.

I see an analogy with Comcast/Xfinity: many of their customers/past-customers hate them but, their employees like them because they are well-treated.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 21, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.
> 
> I see an analogy with Comcast/Xfinity: many of their customers/past-customers hate them but, their employees like them because they are well-treated.


Spot on.  Unfortunately in today’s society people love to hate from the outside while being clueless about whats going on from the inside.


----------



## thebigo (Dec 21, 2022)

People confuse a nostalgia for vail's properties with hatred. Personally it took one year as an epic passholder for me to realize vail does not offer the premium experience my family is looking for.

We replaced crotched with pats, sunapee with ragged; attitash and wildcat with loon and sunday river. In all four cases the experience is significantly improved over what vail offers. This however does not preclude us from being upset that we are unable to raise our kids at the mountains we grew up skiing.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 21, 2022)

It might be nostalgia for you and I would like to point out there are 385 pages and 7670 posts on this thread.  The majority of them are not about nostalgia.


----------



## Mum skier (Dec 21, 2022)

thebigo said:


> People confuse a nostalgia for vail's properties with hatred. Personally it took one year as an epic passholder for me to realize vail does not offer the premium experience my family is looking for.
> 
> We replaced crotched with pats, sunapee with ragged; attitash and wildcat with loon and sunday river. In all four cases the experience is significantly improved over what vail offers. This however does not preclude us from being upset that we are unable to raise our kids at the mountains we grew up skiing.


But that’s a lot of extra ski passes you have to buy.  Do you really buy Pats, Ragged and a New England pass in one year?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.
> 
> I see an analogy with Comcast/Xfinity: many of their customers/past-customers hate them but, their employees like them because they are well-treated.



The significant exodus of long tenured employees at Wildcat and Attitash would disagree with you.

Lifetime Stowe resident friends of mine who worked at the mountain for decades would also disagree with you.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 21, 2022)

'full-time' = accountants and legal staff in broomfield


----------



## thebigo (Dec 21, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> But that’s a lot of extra ski passes you have to buy.  Do you really buy Pats, Ragged and a New England pass in one year?


Ragged and Boyne bronze pass. Ragged was $379, don't remember the boyne cost, maybe in the $575 range? Pats is 50% off with ragged pass, only go a few times a year for night skiing when the kids have early release.

Yes more expensive but you get what you pay for. Besides, pass cost is only a small percentage of the overall cost. Closing in on 30 days before Christmas, likely get close to 100 days this season. Works out to around $12 - $14/day if we add k spring. Spend far more than that on food/beverage every day, not to mention transportation/gear/training etc.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 21, 2022)

thebigo said:


> People confuse a nostalgia for vail's properties with hatred. Personally it took one year as an epic passholder for me to realize vail does not offer the premium experience my family is looking for.
> 
> We replaced crotched with pats, sunapee with ragged; attitash and wildcat with loon and sunday river. In all four cases the experience is significantly improved over what vail offers. This however does not preclude us from being upset that we are unable to raise our kids at the mountains we grew up skiing.


Agreed.  I would love to ski the Cat again, but I refuse to give the Vail pricks one friggin penny!


----------



## SLyardsale (Dec 21, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> It might be nostalgia for you and I would like to point out there are 385 pages and 7670 posts on this thread.  The majority of them are not about nostalgia.


disagree.  vail so ruined the ski experience at these eastern resorts - otherwise there wouldn't be 386 pages on this - we'd like our mt's and better experiences back - but they aren't coming back.  the crotched employees have banded together to accuse those of us speaking out against vail corporate of employee harassment against them. the moderator at snow journal shut down the vail sucks thread there only to have it immediately reposted with a new thread - now he is posting back here at alpine zone more often then over there because he can't even win in his own forum -  i guess if i was a property owner at a vail resort and also an employee of the company at that resort i would try and boost the corp too - he has no other options.  i have a fundamental problem with a moderator who is a vail employee, moderating a vail sucks thread on a folksy ski chat and i take anything he says over here with a huge grain of salt.


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## raisingarizona (Dec 21, 2022)

Meh, F  Vail.


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## cdskier (Dec 21, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.



You're giving Vail credit because they're doing things that they're essentially required to do for full-time employees (either by law in the case of health insurance or just to be competitive in the job market with things like dental and 401k)?


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## eatskisleep (Dec 21, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Agreed.  I would love to ski the Cat again, but I refuse to give the Vail pricks one friggin penny!


Same here. I don’t think so
Much it is that we hate vail employees or anything like that. We just want to have our mountains back to what they were before.


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## FBGM (Dec 22, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.
> 
> I see an analogy with Comcast/Xfinity: many of their customers/past-customers hate them but, their employees like them because they are well-treated.


Ha! 

They are not good to work for. I was upper management and they sucked. Pay was less then competitors. Pressure put on you was a lot. You were also just a number to them and they would replace you with someone else at any chance. They don’t care about experience - they will find another person to fill the hole


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## doublediamond (Dec 22, 2022)

I really suspect the Epic Pass Northeast Facebook group to be operated by corporate or at least run by an employee propping up the company off hours. Negative posts get deleted there all the time.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Ha!
> 
> They are not good to work for. I was upper management and they sucked. Pay was less then competitors. Pressure put on you was a lot. You were also just a number to them and they would replace you with someone else at any chance. They don’t care about experience - they will find another person to fill the hole



Not true.  Need to be an F&B manager first for half a year before being a GM!

Appears to be a strict requirement


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 22, 2022)

Yeah not looking forward to the new guy at Roundtop who of course came from F&B at Heavenly but grew up in Central PA.  He's made the comment to people who work there that " the last 2 years were Vail Light and moving forward its going to Vail".  I don't know what the fuck that means, but its pretty pretentious.    Plus the guy who was GM the past 2 years was promoted to Western PA to Run 7 Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mountain which is an obvious upward move.  So obviously "vail" thought he was doing a good job. 

Its like this guy read the Vail Douchebag's Guide to managing...

Even my wife said he was in F&B how does that make him qualified to run a ski resort of any size!


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## eatskisleep (Dec 22, 2022)

I wish Vail would let me run Wildcat. At least I was a pass holder there for years. Place would be top notch with the right budget and a staff that works well with their management. 

Also to note: it sounds like Crotched is run well and has a dedicated team. Maybe the Attitash/Wildcat crews should train with the Crotched team to see how they run things. @joshua segal have you skied Attitash/Wildcat since the Vail takeover? How did you think it compared to when it was Peaks running or even better, pre-Peak?


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## thebigo (Dec 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> I wish Vail would let me run Wildcat. At least I was a pass holder there for years. Place would be top notch with the right budget and a staff that works well with their management.
> 
> Also to note: it sounds like Crotched is run well and has a dedicated team. Maybe the Attitash/Wildcat crews should train with the Crotched team to see how they run things. @joshua segal have you skied Attitash/Wildcat since the Vail takeover? How did you think it compared to when it was Peaks running or even better, pre-Peak?


Crotched opened after Christmas last year.


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## 2Planker (Dec 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> The significant exodus of long tenured employees at Wildcat and Attitash would disagree with you.
> 
> Lifetime Stowe resident friends of mine who worked at the mountain for decades would also disagree with you.


Right on ,  I can name 6 people with more than 30 years experience each, in Lift Ops, Lift Mech., Patrol, and other full time “on snow” positions who gave Vail a chance but walked away after the last 2 years.
I/we still ski there on Comps and a Chamber Pass but they get nothing more from us


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## joshua segal (Dec 22, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> I wish Vail would let me run Wildcat. At least I was a pass holder there for years. Place would be top notch with the right budget and a staff that works well with their management.
> 
> Also to note: it sounds like Crotched is run well and has a dedicated team. Maybe the Attitash/Wildcat crews should train with the Crotched team to see how they run things. @joshua segal have you skied Attitash/Wildcat since the Vail takeover? How did you think it compared to when it was Peaks running or even better, pre-Peak?


Where I live neither Wildcat nor Attitash make sense. The Vail areas to which I go regularly are Sunapee, Okemo and Mount Snow.  All have been well-run (IMO), although Sunapee had very limited skiing early season. I do agree that the Crotched team is exceptional, and many are saying that the "Pre-Vail Crotched vibe is back.


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## joshua segal (Dec 22, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Crotched opened after Christmas last year.


True.  No snow and no personnel last year.  It was a miracle that we did as well as we did!  This year, we've got both!


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Right on ,  I can name 6 people with more than 30 years experience each, in Lift Ops, Lift Mech., Patrol, and other full time “on snow” positions who gave Vail a chance but walked away after the last 2 years.
> I/we still ski there on Comps and a Chamber Pass but they get nothing more from us



I will likely buy some Epic Day passes in the future to ski Wildcat and Stowe again. Maybe next year. My favorite VT and NH mountains that Vail completely ruined.  I love the terrain at both too much to never ski them again out of spite. 

It just sucks because I was literally 24 hours away from signing a seasonal rental for 2020-21 and begin living out my dreams of raising my kids skiing at Wildcat. Then Covid stopped the world, so I decided to pause.  Stuck with passes and we all saw what happened that winter of 20-21.  

Conservatively, Vail lost $100k in revenue over the next 15 years by pissing me off enough to leave.  I bet Bigo would have invested similar in his family at Cat.   That's the impact of losing just 2 diehard skiing families of 4.  $200k


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 22, 2022)

Sweet lift detach at breck with dude in chair falling 13 feet


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Sweet lift detach at breck with dude in chair falling 13 feet


Yep. It’s Vail’s new technology to get guests onto the snow much faster. It’s pretty EPIC. 










						Chair Falls from High Speed Quad at Breckenridge
					

A quad chair detached from Breckenridge’s Peak 8 SuperConnect today as high winds buffeted the Central Rockies region. The below video shows the upbound chair came to rest just below the upper term…




					liftblog.com


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## raisingarizona (Dec 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Sweet lift detach at breck with dude in chair falling 13 feet


That dude f-d up. He should have laid there claiming of severe back pain and called a lawyer.


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## FBGM (Dec 22, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> That dude f-d up. He should have laid there claiming of severe back pain and called a lawyer.


Im sure a few lawyers have already reached out to him. He will get paid. And rightfully so, straight up negligence.


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## djd66 (Dec 22, 2022)

What about this is negligence?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2022)

djd66 said:


> What about this is negligence?



Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope.  Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you? 

Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too. 

I don't care how rare they are, these incidents should never happen other than Act of God situations.  This is now twice in two years for Vail that I know of.  Last year it happened at Wildcat.

In both situations the person involved  in the wreck or their families should sue the shit out of both Vail and the licencing board.  That's the only way to wake them up and get them to do their jobs and prevent such "accidents" in the future.

Really terrible look for the wealthiest ski company in the world to have two terrible lift accidents and a Zipline death the past two years. All could have been prevented.  They happened because of cost cutting. 

Vail sucks

I hope they go the way of Intrawest and implode.  Both companies = profit before people. Fuck that


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## Keelhauled (Dec 22, 2022)

Sunday River dropped an occupied gondola cabin.  Magic dropped an empty chair.  Camelback dropped an occupied chair.  Those are all just the last few years and across all types of operators.  Neither humans nor machines are infallible, especially not when combined.  Just because Vail is big doesn't intrinsically mean that they're negligent or malicious.


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## drjeff (Dec 22, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope.  Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you?
> 
> Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too.
> 
> ...


So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...

Or maybe we should all get back to where we were as a society say 10 - 15yrs ago, where some reasonable risk wasn't even thought twice about and was just a normal part of life.

A society that seeks ZERO risk in life, is frankly a society I want nothing to do with. It would be like only skiing the beginner slope, on a sunny, windless 30 degree day, while wearing full body armor and never getting above 5 mph heading downhill


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2022)

drjeff said:


> So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...


???

I am not a fan of Vail, but trust me, there are folks who are MUCH more angry at Vail than I. My jokes about Katz are made in jest.

And the winds in CO were in excess of those speeds and Vail operated this lift when it clearly was not safe to do so. That's why we have wind holds. This chair derailment is pretty significant. Saying that one should assume the risk of having a chair you are riding on blow off the line is one hell of an assumption of risk and no reasonable person would ever buy that. I've read and re-read what you wrote and it appears that is what you are saying. Your other comparisons ring pretty hollow. This incident was not at all reasonable. Now your Vail defense has gone to a whole different level. Frankly this is one of the most stupid defenses I have read and I almost exclusively do defense work. Just being honest.


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## djd66 (Dec 23, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope.  Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you?
> 
> Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too.
> 
> ...


The chair was on a wind hold when this happened.  Again, what did they do that was negligent?


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## Terry (Dec 23, 2022)

If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?


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## djd66 (Dec 23, 2022)

Terry said:


> If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?


No idea,.. I’m just going by what I read.  I’m guessing when they first opened, the wind was not that strong and then it got very gusty.

I am no Vail fanboy, but to say they were negligent is BS without having actual facts.  

I hate the fact that we are such a litigious society that there are investment firms that invest in lawsuits.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...
> 
> Or maybe we should all get back to where we were as a society say 10 - 15yrs ago, where some reasonable risk wasn't even thought twice about and was just a normal part of life.
> 
> A society that seeks ZERO risk in life, is frankly a society I want nothing to do with. It would be like only skiing the beginner slope, on a sunny, windless 30 degree day, while wearing full body armor and never getting above 5 mph heading downhill



Oh lookie there, in comes Dr Jeff white knighting Vail.  What a surprise. 

15, 20 or 25mph? Hyperbole much Jeff?

No, what I'm inferring is that there appears to be a pattern forming with Vail where lack of maintenance and perhaps also a deficit in operational expertise is causing accidents.  Lack of maintenance was the case with the Zipline accident. Very inexpensive parts weren't replaced on schedule there.  Only a few posts prior to this discussion you have 2Planker discussing long term mountain ops people who ditched Vail at Wildcat.  And what happened there? They had a lift de-rope during what was not a crazy windy day last season. 

It's a troubling pattern Jeff.  Especially for the most wealthy ski company on the planet.  It's okay to admit that or at the very least consider it.  No one's going to take away your Mt Snow number one fan status for doing so.


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## machski (Dec 23, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh lookie there, in comes Dr Jeff white knighting Vail.  What a surprise.
> 
> 15, 20 or 25mph? Hyperbole much Jeff?
> 
> ...


Word is the rider on the detach chair on the Super connect was one of our pilots and is miraculously 100% ok. 

The articles I have read said at the time of the incident, numerous upper mountain lifts were on wind hold but that SuperConnect was not on hold.


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## FBGM (Dec 23, 2022)

Okay I have a quick min to explain this situation…

Under no circumstance should a chair or carrier ever fall or detach from the line, loaded or empty. This is cut and dry. Won’t go into the numerous safeties and reasons why, just this should never happen. 

As for wind. I’ve seen 4 and 6 person lifts, empty, sustain 100+ mph winds with no failure or detach. I will say, when loaded, and you are running in wind where gusts or speeds are borderline, you have issues like this. Lift stops, loaded, during wind hold. But, you still have no reason at all that a detach from rope should happen. 

The picture is hard to see. Not sure if that chair was already into top terminal? That adds another few factors in. 

I’ve been saying this for years now, there will be a major and or Catastrophic lift failure at some point. Most likely resulting in loss of life and high injuries. The lift infrastructure and maintenance over the past 5-10 years is deteriorating. From a number of factors. Once this happens I suspect huge changes and impacts from state and governing boards. These are already starting but a major revamp of the system will have to happen. 

Again, with this accident from just pictures and conditions known, I still don’t see any reason this is not negligence. The only outlier would be was the people on the lift bouncing/swinging doing something of that nature. 

Source/Credentials for what I said - 20+ year Mountain operations manager/worker/consultant that has seen, worked, built a lot and studied the ski field. I’ve been involved in depositions, worked with lawyers and ski insurance companies. 

I don’t like Vail, but this type of incident could happen anywhere - it has - and it shouldn’t. End of story.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Lift infrastructure and maintenance over the past 5-10 years is deteriorating. From a number of factors. Once this happens I suspect huge changes and impacts from state and governing boards. These are already starting but a major revamp of the system will have to happen.




And during that same time period Rob Katz saw his net worth surpass $100M and Vail constantly broadcasts the hundreds of millions in cash they have to attract more investors.

They have the money to operate in a much safer fashion, but it certainly appears that litigation may be the only way to force them to do so.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 23, 2022)

If a loaded chair falls off a lift and I am on the jury, it is negligence - either in maintenance of the lift or the decision to operate the lifts.

And there are enough jurors that would feel that way - and the PR impact on Vail of an extended trial would be severe enough - that there is no way Vail would let this get to a jury. 

If there had been a serious injury they would settle and pay millions.

With no real injury they will likely still pay something in a settlement for psychological trauma.


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## PAabe (Dec 23, 2022)

Increased lift regulation and liability could put dozens and dozens of small ski areas out of business.  It already has NELSAPed a lot of places.

I hope ski areas can find responsibility to maintain safe lift operations without shooting themselves in the foot by bringing on increased government oversight.

Skiing is risky business, which I hope other skiers and the government are able to recognize, but unlike many of the risks, a chair detaching is not something the individual skier can avoid - but seems to be happening more and more frequently

One statistic that would be interesting is if ski lifts are statistically more dangerous per trip or even per mile than driving in a car? I would guess not


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## FBGM (Dec 23, 2022)

To follow up on lift maintenance, the biggest issue/concern I’ve seen over say the past 10 years is knowledge of employees. The veterans of the lift industry are few and far these days. And retiring and fading. There are some great young mechanics and managers. But at a resort with say 30 lifts, 4 top level mechanics and 10 greener guys, it’s hard. And this is common. 

You can say “oh the pay sucks that’s why no one wants to do it” - sure. But I think the root cause is increased infrastructure, increasing older age infrastructure, high learning curves, lack of formal training in specific aspects and high pressure from “above” on getting stuff done and open quicker or at a timeline. 

Is there a perfect solution to this? Maybe? What that is, probably still in the works at many places.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 23, 2022)

PAabe said:


> One statistic that would be interesting is if ski lifts are statistically more dangerous per trip or even per mile than driving in a car? I would guess not



Per trip or per mile is really not comparable as car trips are much longer duration than lift trips. 

But I am sure vastly more skiers are injured or killed driving to and from mountains on snowy and icy roads than from lift accidents. And I'm sure that (while lower in number than car accidents) vastly more skiers are also injured or killed skiing than by lift accidents. The difference is that with driving or skiing accidents the negligence would fall on a driver/skier or (rarely) auto manufacturer or ski equipment provider.


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## doublediamond (Dec 23, 2022)

Vail isn’t a ski operator. They are a marketing firm that sells you access to their areas. There’s no other explanation for how their ops are so shitty: bad grooming, anemic snowmaking, lack of lifts, no maintenance, etc.

I’m convinced anyone who likes Vail either can’t see through their veil (pun intended) or are clouded by nostalgia for 2000s era Vail out in CO. This is fundamentally not the same company. They are in a race to the bottom a la McDonalds or Walmart. You get what you pay for.

While this latest incident (Breckinridge deropement) doesn’t have to do with lack of maintenance, the negligence goes hand in hand with what can be seen elsewhere in the company.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2022)

Terry said:


> If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?


Exactly


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## doublediamond (Dec 23, 2022)

This lift wasn’t on wind hold. Upper mountain lifts were.


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## ss20 (Dec 23, 2022)

Statistically Vail will have the most lift accidents given their portfolio is 3x-4x larger than their next competitor.  

The gondola incident a few weeks ago at Mt. St Anne is negligence- overrunning sensors, ignoring manufacturer guidelines, etc.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

I grew up in an era when people worked on their own cars and whatever else. Not so much any more...I gave up teaching maintenance engineering as it became harder to get through to most in my classes. Maintaining machines is going to be a big problem in the years to come as more and more top people retire. 
Not sure what the answer is.


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## RichT (Dec 23, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I grew up in an era when people worked on their own cars and whatever else. Not so much any more...I gave up teaching maintenance engineering as it became harder to get through to most in my classes. Maintaining machines is going to be a big problem in the years to come as more and more top people retire.
> Not sure what the answer is.


If I had a son, i'd be pushing him to the trades sector. Nothing like going around making tons of money installing new garage door openers or fixing leaky faucets


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## cdskier (Dec 23, 2022)

Terry said:


> If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?





thetrailboss said:


> Exactly



Not that I want to defend Vail, but a lift doesn't magically go from being open and loading to being on wind hold with no people on it. There's a period where it goes on hold, they stop loading, but it continues running (possibly at low speed...which is exactly what first hand reports say was being done at the time on this particular lift) in order to offload the remaining people. You can't just put a lift on wind hold and leave everyone on it that was already loaded prior to it going on hold. I would have to think most people on this forum have been on lifts while they put it on wind hold (I know I have been on multiple occasions...Slide Brook at Sugarbush being one of the scariest rides ever).


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## Dickc (Dec 23, 2022)

Terry said:


> If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?


I was on the old Jordan lift at Sunday River when they put it on wind hold.  They slowed it to a creep speed when I was 1/2 way up, and I kind of wondered why, UNTIL I crested the upper ridge, and holy cow was it blowing!  I got hit with a gust 30 seconds later that swung the chair wildly making me hold on as I was suddenly worried about getting thrown out of it.  The chair stopped for a moment, and I have to figure it was the upper operator stopping it so that the chair in front of me that was about to enter the top terminal would not derope by missing the guide slot.  Got up to the unload a minute later, and had ski patrol tell me that the lift was now on wind hold and to either ski to the Jordan grand and take a shuttle, or ski Kansas over to the rest of the resort.  I’ve never been tossed around on a chair like that before, and hope never to again!


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## FBGM (Dec 23, 2022)

You dump speed down to clear line. That’s a standard operating procedure. But, if you’re gusting to way above operating speed, usually at top or brake over, you still have to stop lift. 

The more info that’s coming it seems this maybe came off cable right before detach in top terminal. I’ve seen the carriers get caught and derailed with that situation. Never seen one fall. But I had a lift evac due to a hung up detach with wind at top terminal


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 23, 2022)

VIDEO: Chair falls off Breckenridge ski lift with person on it amid high winds | OutThere Colorado
		


There’s a video in there of aftermath. It’s at the terminal.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2022)

How did the Wildcat fix gripped triple fall off last season? A detachable lift makes sense to me, fixed grip not as much…


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## doublediamond (Dec 23, 2022)

In a traditional fixed-grip lift the grip goes up and over the rope and it’s held tight with a big spring.

Riblet lifts on the other hand do not use a traditional fixed-grip. Instead the grip is a clip which is woven into a section of rope. It’s held in place with the rope’s tension.

In the Wildcat incident, and many others like it with Riblet lifts, there was a misload. The chair swung, hit the first tower and got hung up on it which yanked the grip out of the rope. Compounding this issue is that there was not a trained liftie loading the lift. Instead it was a cafeteria worker dragged outside because of their Epic short staffing last year.

While rare, this is a known problem with Riblet lifts. To counteract this some Riblet lifts have long load ramps so that skis are on the ground for a bit preventing the issue at Wildcat or even a wall between the up side and the first tower.

Long load ramp, St. Bernard @ Alpental:



			https://skiliftblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/alpental-4-22-07-006.jpg
		


Wall, Gallery @ Summit Central



			https://skiliftblog.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/img_6635.jpg
		


ETA: Riblet clip vs. standard fixed grip



			https://nyskiblog.com/forum/attachments/46a05822-12cd-4682-a70b-cdcfb8615209-jpeg.4889/


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 23, 2022)

drjeff said:


> So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...
> 
> Or maybe we should all get back to where we were as a society say 10 - 15yrs ago, where some reasonable risk wasn't even thought twice about and was just a normal part of life.
> 
> A society that seeks ZERO risk in life, is frankly a society I want nothing to do with. It would be like only skiing the beginner slope, on a sunny, windless 30 degree day, while wearing full body armor and never getting above 5 mph heading downhill


i agree that society has become way too soft but i would say there's a difference between say, making your kid wear safety pads on a training bike and expecting the chairlift to at least stay together.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2022)

How did the Wildcat fix gripped triple fall off last season? A detachable lift makes sense to me, fixed grip not as muchj


doublediamond said:


> In a traditional fixed-grip lift the grip goes up and over the rope and it’s held tight with a big spring.
> 
> Riblet lifts on the other hand do not use a traditional fixed-grip. Instead the grip is a clip which is woven into a section of rope. It’s held in place with the rope’s tension.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info and the Links much appreciated!


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 23, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> i agree that society has become way too soft but i would say there's a difference between say, making your kid wear safety pads on a training bike and expecting the chairlift to at least stay together.



These snowflakes, expecting to not die on chairlift infrastructure


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## abc (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Full-time Vail people find Vail to be a good employer, offering internal opportunities for advancement, health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, etc.


I know of at least one Vail full time employee who weren’t happy… Remember that $20/hr pay raise? Well, Vail took away all the other supplemental payments after that. So employees were actually ended up with LESS take home than before the ‘raise’!

Health insurance is mandatory for any corporation with certain number of employees. So is 401K. I got that working part time in my local grocery store chain! So to say that’s a criteria for “good employer” is laughable!


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 23, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I grew up in an era when people worked on their own cars and whatever else. Not so much any more...I gave up teaching maintenance engineering as it became harder to get through to most in my classes. Maintaining machines is going to be a big problem in the years to come as more and more top people retire.
> Not sure what the answer is.


There'll be machines to repair the machines. No one will need to know how to do anything. 

I'm mostly (but not entirely) joking


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

In an interview with Elon Musk..he stated that robots will eventually replace humans at so many levels that a global basic wage will be needed for those that simply cannot find work.
It's already happening...
The kiosk
The self checkout
Robotic assembly lines
I'll bet lifties will at some point be replaced with some sort of automated system.
Scanners where with RFID gates.
It's happening.


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## abc (Dec 23, 2022)

Machines will be maintained by other machines to a large extent. But repair will still require SOME human intervention. 



> I gave up teaching maintenance engineering as it became harder to get through to most in my classes….Not sure what the answer is.


Rely on the Mexicans?


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

Anyone with a desire and some mechanical aptitude can learn...but they need to learn from people with experience...as that dwindles...it's going to get a lot harder.
I read about one company that recorded videos of how to maintain the older machines and put the screen right on it. This was before youtube was big. 
When I left the world trade center I had written about 20 illustrated books on everything you needed to know about maintaining the area I managed...and 3.4 terabytes of info on a drive. 
They still call once in a while though. 
Ski resorts should do this before all the old talent is gone.


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## abc (Dec 23, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I'll bet lifties will at some point be replaced with some sort of automated system.
> Scanners where with RFID gates.


I doubt lifties will be replaced by any automation.

But ticket scanner is really only left in the US. In Europe, you rarely see any human ticket scanner. It’s


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 23, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> disagree.  vail so ruined the ski experience at these eastern resorts - otherwise there wouldn't be 386 pages on this - we'd like our mt's and better experiences back - but they aren't coming back.  the crotched employees have banded together to accuse those of us speaking out against vail corporate of employee harassment against them. the moderator at snow journal shut down the vail sucks thread there only to have it immediately reposted with a new thread - now he is posting back here at alpine zone more often then over there because he can't even win in his own forum -  i guess if i was a property owner at a vail resort and also an employee of the company at that resort i would try and boost the corp too - he has no other options.  i have a fundamental problem with a moderator who is a vail employee, moderating a vail sucks thread on a folksy ski chat and i take anything he says over here with a huge grain of salt.


Who is the Vail employee posting here?  Lets call that Dbag out!


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## Smellytele (Dec 23, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Who is the Vail employee posting here?  Lets call that Dbag out!


Joshua Segal is his posted name.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)




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## Smellytele (Dec 23, 2022)

Burn her!
How do you know she is a witch?
She turned me into a newt, I got betta


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> disagree.  vail so ruined the ski experience at these eastern resorts - otherwise there wouldn't be 386 pages on this - we'd like our mt's and better experiences back - but they aren't coming back.  the crotched employees have banded together to accuse those of us speaking out against vail corporate of employee harassment against them. the moderator at snow journal shut down the vail sucks thread there only to have it immediately reposted with a new thread - now he is posting back here at alpine zone more often then over there because he can't even win in his own forum -  i guess if i was a property owner at a vail resort and also an employee of the company at that resort i would try and boost the corp too - he has no other options.  i have a fundamental problem with a moderator who is a vail employee, moderating a vail sucks thread on a folksy ski chat and i take anything he says over here with a huge grain of salt.


As best as I can tell, I am the only Crotched employee who posts regularly on AZ.  There are about a half-dozen CM regulars who post on SJ which has a very similar thread to this - even the same title.

Whenever there is a change of ownership - ski area or regular business, changes in ownership are accompanied by changes in style and changes in procedures. Most people react badly if they don't like the changes, so it's not surprising that some people leave - especially if there are many other opportunities available.

At the management level, the problem is worse.  The new owner wants "their team" rather than dealing with those who continuously say, "This isn't good." So that the change in ownership resulted in some people leaving at all levels is a truth - but not one peculiar to Vail.  We saw similar in the days of ASC.

Just before a ski area is sold, the previous owners usually stop putting money into it.  There is no return on investment.  As a result, the new properties come with many deferred maintenance issues.  ASC has been gone about 15-years and Killington (under POWDR) is just getting caught up on deferred maintenance in the last few years.

There are also a number of issues that are being blamed on Vail that IMO, might be COVID related including:
- Crowded lifts because quads were going up with 1-person, etc.
- Post-COVID employment problems created industry-wide labor shortages which reflected in services being curtailed including less lifts operating on busy days.

Now SLyardsale says, "386 pages on this".  If you really read the 386 pages, there is a lot of noise as well as a lot of valid issues.  Ultimately, the marketplace will determine whether Vail is making the right choices - not a few hundred of us arguing on a forum. 

I like to think that forums like this are to exchange ideas - not personal insults.


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## ThatGuy (Dec 23, 2022)

Slug always with the apt Python quotes


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## ThatGuy (Dec 23, 2022)

Theres a Vail Sucks thread for a reason. If you’re happily employed by them more power to you, but the loss of experienced talent at multiple Vail owned resorts says something.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Burn her!
> How do you know she is a witch?
> She turned me back into a newt, I got betta


Well..if you post positive about vail..you must be a duck..therefore made out of wood..thus we can build a bridge out of you....ergo...A Witch...


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## jaytrem (Dec 23, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> i have a fundamental problem with a moderator who is a vail employee, moderating a vail sucks thread on a folksy ski chat and i take anything he says over here with a huge grain of salt.



Yeah, I agree, that's why I bailed on Snow Journal (as I suspect you might remember).  I think he said he locked it since the season was over, even though it wasn't. The thread became a catch all for good and bad Vail stuff.  I was still skiing Whistler and posting mostly positive things about my experience there.  Absolutely pointless moderation.  Almost no other threads have even been locked there, so it was very out of place.  If you're a Vail employee you should recuse yourself from moderating a Vail thread.  There were other moderators that could have moderated if necessary.  Silly stuff for sure.


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## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Theres a Vail Sucks thread for a reason. If you’re happily employed by them more power to you, but the loss of experienced talent at multiple Vail owned resorts says something.


Find anything that I said about my personal relationship with Vail by which you draw that conclusion. I am merely pointing out the way business works. 

My work at Crotched Mountain and a half dozen ski areas dating back to 1978 was and remains a hobby - no more; and like DrJeff at Mount Snow, I own a place at CM that long pre-dates Vail. I've worked for better management groups and a few that were a lot worse.  BTW: Vail and Peak are the only ski areas for whom I worked over the last 44 years who never bounced a paycheck on me!


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## ThatGuy (Dec 23, 2022)

On a scale from disgruntled to happy you seem closer to one side than the other from the tone of your posts.


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## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> On a scale from disgruntled to happy you seem closer to one side than the other from the tone of your posts.


I'm happy to be skiing. Tomorrow will be day 33 for this season for me with almost 700K vertical. This is my 16th season at CM since Peak resurrected them in 2003. Many of the people I've worked with for over 30 years - some, close to 40 (at other ski areas).  Who owns CM doesn't change old relationships and doesn't change the trail system. And when you're not depending on a job to put food on the table, who owns the mountain really doesn't matter to me.

This summer Vail did more to deal with deferred maintenance issues than I've ever seen.  I think we're putting out a good product.  As I said in an earlier post, our guests will be the judge.  If they come back, we're doing OK.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 23, 2022)

Meanwhile in utah (solitude, not a vail. This is just where the chairlift chat is right now). This also happened during a hold with no passengers, or outside operating hours…


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## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Yeah, I agree, that's why I bailed on Snow Journal (as I suspect you might remember).  I think he said he locked it since the season was over, even though it wasn't. The thread became a catch all for good and bad Vail stuff.  I was still skiing Whistler and posting mostly positive things about my experience there.  Absolutely pointless moderation.  Almost no other threads have even been locked there, so it was very out of place.  If you're a Vail employee you should recuse yourself from moderating a Vail thread.  There were other moderators that could have moderated if necessary.  Silly stuff for sure.


Jaytrem: You are right.  There was already a new thread started for the next year and having two threads didn't make sense.  If I objected to the thread, I would have deleted it.  I just closed it to encourage people to post in the new thread (that had the same title).

And, as a moderator on SJ, I really did read the thread I closed (and the other admin who is not a Vail employee agreed).  The thread had become so long and so unwieldy that people were just repeating the same things. I like to think that the purpose of a forum is not like TV commercials that just repeat the same idea because they're selling a product.


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## SLyardsale (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Jaytrem: You are right.  There was already a new thread started for the next year and having two threads didn't make sense.  If I objected to the thread, I would have deleted it.  I just closed it to encourage people to post in the new thread (that had the same title).
> 
> And, as a moderator on SJ, I really did read the thread I closed (and the other admin who is not a Vail employee agreed).  The thread had become so long and so unwieldy that people were just repeating the same things. I like to think that the purpose of a forum is not like TV commercials that just repeat the same idea because they're selling a product.


This is a lie.  You locked the thread and a new was created within 5 mins LATER.  Jaytrem left first - smarter than I .


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## SLyardsale (Dec 23, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Yeah, I agree, that's why I bailed on Snow Journal (as I suspect you might remember).  I think he said he locked it since the season was over, even though it wasn't. The thread became a catch all for good and bad Vail stuff.  I was still skiing Whistler and posting mostly positive things about my experience there.  Absolutely pointless moderation.  Almost no other threads have even been locked there, so it was very out of place.  If you're a Vail employee you should recuse yourself from moderating a Vail thread.  There were other moderators that could have moderated if necessary.  Silly stuff for sure.


He called the thread SPAM - and locked it.  In the new Vail sucks thread, he called a regular poster out for criticizing  the vail cookie cutter snow reports by calling it political diatribe.


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## jaytrem (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> There was already a new thread started for the next year and having two threads didn't make sense.



Now you're just making things up. The new thread was not created until over an hour after you closed the original.  Maybe not a good idea to lie about things that are so easily checked.  I was still skiing at a Vail resort during the 21-22 season and posting mostly positives.  So not everything was people saying the same thing over and over.  I'm not sure why you suddenly decided that censorship was good for Snow Journal, but you lost my respect that day.  And that's all I will say about this and the last time I will interact with you.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> And, as a moderator on SJ, I really did read the thread I closed (and the other admin who is not a Vail employee agreed).  The thread had become so long and so unwieldy that people were just repeating the same things. I like to think that the purpose of a forum is not like TV commercials that just repeat the same idea because they're selling a product.



So, I've been a moderator here for probably 12 years or so now.  I've come to believe that less moderation is the better way.  I didn't always feel that way.  In fact, I'd say the first five years or so I was probably the most uptight moderator of our group in regards to rule enforcement.  I was very quick to shutdown political discussions and personal attacks.  It was rooted in wanting to keep the peace, but those decisions often resulted in even less peace.

We still don't really want politics or personal attacks here, but mostly let them slide unless it's a real nuisance with lots of reported posts.   So by enlarge we just let the conversations go where they may.  People are always free to not read them if they don't like the topics or direction.  For the most part the forum moderates itself, the folks here are largely good people with a shared passion, spats don't last long.

  I'll clean up the spam and alert Nick about technical issues. That's been about it for a few years now.  Couple testy times during the height of Covid, but that's about it.

But, perhaps Snow journal is going for something different.  I'm not member over there, but occasionally browse.  Lots of good content.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2022)

abc said:


> I doubt lifties will be replaced by any automation.
> 
> But ticket scanner is really only left in the US. In Europe, you rarely see any human ticket scanner. It’s


They are running lifts in Europe using CCTV systems….


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## SLyardsale (Dec 23, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Now you're just making things up. The new thread was not created until over an hour after you closed the original.  Maybe not a good idea to lie about things that are so easily checked.  I was still skiing at a Vail resort during the 21-22 season and posting mostly positives.  So not everything was people saying the same thing over and over.  I'm not sure why you suddenly decided that censorship was good for Snow Journal, but you lost my respect that day.  And that's all I will say about this and the last time I will interact with you.


same here - it's a good move - too bad.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> They are running lifts in Europe using CCTV systems….


Wasn't going to respond...but there are a lot of jobs that can be automated now.. a whole...lot..


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## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

SLyardsale said:


> This is a lie.  You locked the thread and a new was created within 5 mins LATER.  Jaytrem left first - smarter than I .


If you left SJ because of one thread, good riddance!


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## joshua segal (Dec 23, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> So, I've been a moderator here for probably 12 years or so now.  I've come to believe that less moderation is the better way.  I didn't always feel that way.  In fact, I'd say the first five years or so I was probably the most uptight moderator of our group in regards to rule enforcement.  I was very quick to shutdown political discussions and personal attacks.  It was rooted in wanting to keep the peace, but those decisions often resulted in even less peace.
> 
> We still don't really want politics or personal attacks here, but mostly let them slide unless it's a real nuisance with lots of reported posts.   So by enlarge we just let the conversations go where they may.  People are always free to not read them if they don't like the topics or direction.  For the most part the forum moderates itself, the folks here are largely good people with a shared passion, spats don't last long.
> 
> ...


I've been an SJ moderator for about the same length of time. In that time, I locked one thread and sent two PMs warning people about personal attacks. The SJ crowd is different from the AZ crowd and people gravitate to where they are comfortable.


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## SLyardsale (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> If you left SJ because of one thread, good riddance!


ok  thanks,


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## eatskisleep (Dec 23, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Wasn't going to respond...but there are a lot of jobs that can be automated now.. a whole...lot..


True minimum wage is $0…


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## abc (Dec 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> The SJ crowd is different from the AZ crowd and people gravitate to where they are *comfortable*.



Echo chamber?


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## jaytrem (Dec 24, 2022)

abc said:


> Echo chamber?


No, more like team Vail versus team Anti-Vail and a few of us in the middle.  I can't complain about how Vail has run things at Mount Snow.  Just not a fan of the addition paid parking.  But I do see the lousy job they're doing at a number of other areas and feel for the people who have to deal with any type of pass refund or off snow customer service.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 24, 2022)

What is SJ?


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## RichT (Dec 24, 2022)

tnt1234 said:


> What is SJ?


Snow Journal forum


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## Harvey (Dec 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> So, I've been a moderator here for probably 12 years or so now.  I've come to believe that less moderation is the better way.  I didn't always feel that way.  In fact, I'd say the first five years or so I was probably the most uptight moderator of our group in regards to rule enforcement.  I was very quick to shutdown political discussions and personal attacks.  It was rooted in wanting to keep the peace, but those decisions often resulted in even less peace.
> 
> We still don't really want politics or personal attacks here, but mostly let them slide unless it's a real nuisance with lots of reported posts.   So by enlarge we just let the conversations go where they may.  People are always free to not read them if they don't like the topics or direction.  For the most part the forum moderates itself, the folks here are largely good people with a shared passion, spats don't last long.
> 
> ...



+100.  

IMO DHS is one of the best mods in the East. (I don't really follow the West or Europe).  It's hard to keep a forum alive and vibrant when the owner checks out — no rag on Nick, life takes us in different directions — I give DHS a lot of credit for his work keeping this place going.

I've been a mod since 2010 at NYSB, and I've learned the same lessons above.

To me the challenge is separating the mod from the passionate skier.  I've got all kinds of strongly held opinions, and I like to express them in our forum. It's hard to avoid people conflating my own personal opinion with POLICY for the website.  People turn "Harv said X" into "NYSB is the place where X is the rule."

Carry on.


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## trackbiker (Dec 24, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> No, more like team Vail versus team Anti-Vail and a few of us in the middle.  I can't complain about how Vail has run things at Mount Snow.  Just not a fan of the addition paid parking.  But I do see the lousy job they're doing at a number of other areas and feel for the people who have to deal with any type of pass refund or off snow customer service.


I agree that there are a lot of people who have no idea what is involved with running a ski area from snowmaking to lessons. Joshua has every right to respond to these criticisms by explaining difficulties with weather, staffing,etc. But it seemed to me that Joshua Segal and at least one other Crotched employee, took, and responded like, any criticism of Vail was a personal attack. I never remember anyone on SJ criticizing the employees who work at any individual mountain. Yes, they criticized the upper management in Colorado but not the work-a-day employees.  Any business that does not listen to complaints is bound to lose business as was evidenced by the sale of season passes being down 12% this year. In my opinion, it was Joshua Segal and his inability to take any criticism of his employer, and rather took it personally, who caused the problem at SJ.


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## joshua segal (Dec 24, 2022)

RichT said:


> Snow Journal forum








						NELSAP Forum
					






					snowjournal.com


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## joshua segal (Dec 24, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I agree that there are a lot of people who have no idea what is involved with running a ski area from snowmaking to lessons. Joshua has every right to respond to these criticisms by explaining difficulties with weather, staffing,etc. But it seemed to me that Joshua Segal and at least one other Crotched employee, took, and responded like, any criticism of Vail was a personal attack. I never remember anyone on SJ criticizing the employees who work at any individual mountain. Yes, they criticized the upper management in Colorado but not the work-a-day employees.  Any business that does not listen to complaints is bound to lose business as was evidenced by the sale of season passes being down 12% this year. In my opinion, it was Joshua Segal and his inability to take any criticism of his employer, and rather took it personally, who caused the problem at SJ.


You said above, "But it seemed to me that Joshua Segal and at least one other Crotched employee, took, and responded like, any criticism of Vail was a personal attack."

I think you are mistaking "seems to me" as being a fact.  Feelings are not facts.

Personal attack is when someone calls me a D-bag, an A-hole or an S-head, because they don't like my POV. 

That being said, if you can cite something that someone ever said about Vail that I claimed to be a personal attack, I would be grateful if you cited it - and since this is mostly about things that happened on SJ, SJ might be a more appropriate venue for this aspect of the discussion.  The thread of the same name is still active on SJ.


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## trackbiker (Dec 24, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> You said above, "But it seemed to me that Joshua Segal and at least one other Crotched employee, took, and responded like, any criticism of Vail was a personal attack."
> 
> I think you are mistaking "seems to me" as being a fact.  Feelings are not facts.
> 
> ...


I never said that anyone made a personal attack on you. Quite the opposite. Quote, " Yes, they criticized the upper management in Colorado but not the work-a-day employees". I said you took it as a personal attack and responded like it was a personal attack.
I've sold custom production line equipment for over 30 years. I've had more than a few unhappy customers call me and complain about something. Sometimes our fault and sometimes the customers. I learned a long time ago not to dismiss their complaints and make excuses, or blame it on them. It's much better to acknowledge their complaint, right, wrong, or indifferent, and tell them you will work to correct it, and then do it.


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## trackbiker (Dec 24, 2022)

Just an afterthought; It appears to me from posts above that you personally caused two long time, knowledgeable contributors to leave SJ and have done nothing to endear them to Vail. How have your responses been working out?
I do hope that they come back to SJ.


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## oldfartrider (Dec 24, 2022)

Went to Crotched today and conditions were amazing.  They must of blown a ton of snow the surface was like riding a carpet.


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## FBGM (Dec 24, 2022)

Let’s get back on track to Vail sucking please


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## ThatGuy (Dec 24, 2022)

Might’ve been a couple AZ’ers in this photo the whole time


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## Mum skier (Dec 24, 2022)

FBGM said:


> Let’s get back on track to Vail sucking please


Today at Okemo there was no sucking. Great effort to de ice lifts and get most things open by lunch time and all scheduled lifts by later in the day. No crowds, no lines and all things considered the runs were in better than expected conditions.  You would not want to wipe out and fall as very hard surfac, but if you enjoy hard and fast surface it was good. Only bad thing was any lifts that had not been put away for the night were covered in a coat of ice which was a bit chilly  on the behind going up!


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 24, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> Today at Okemo there was no sucking. Great effort to de ice lifts and get most things open by lunch time and all scheduled lifts by later in the day. No crowds, no lines and all things considered the runs were in better than expected conditions.  You would not want to wipe out and fall as very hard surfac, but if you enjoy hard and fast surface it was good. Only bad thing was any lifts that had not been put away for the night were covered in a coat of ice which was a bit chilly  on the behind going up!


Looking forward to 9am open tomorrow


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## Smellytele (Dec 24, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> Today at Okemo there was no sucking. Great effort to de ice lifts and get most things open by lunch time and all scheduled lifts by later in the day. No crowds, no lines and all things considered the runs were in better than expected conditions.  You would not want to wipe out and fall as very hard surfac, but if you enjoy hard and fast surface it was good. Only bad thing was any lifts that had not been put away for the night were covered in a coat of ice which was a bit chilly  on the behind going up!


So you like the surface hard and fast? That sounds suck to me.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Dec 24, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> You said above, "But it seemed to me that Joshua Segal and at least one other Crotched employee, took, and responded like, any criticism of Vail was a personal attack."
> 
> I think you are mistaking "seems to me" as being a fact.  Feelings are not facts.
> 
> ...


You are coming from the micro viewpoint of a longtime Crotched employee.  You seem happy to just have a deep pocketed employer.  I doubt a small ski area like Crotched suffered the worst of the Epic pass fueled lines, traffic, and parking surcharges that other, more populare Vail/Epic mountains see.   Most of us could give a flying fu#k at a rolling donut about Crotched. 
Turning top mountains like Attitash/Wildcat into the bargain basement of sking is a crime against skiers of the Northeast.


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## urungus (Dec 24, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> You are coming from the micro viewpoint of a longtime Crotched employee.  You seem happy to just have a deep pocketed employer.  I doubt a small ski area like Crotched suffered the worst of the Epic pass fueled lines, traffic, and parking surcharges that other, more populare Vail/Epic mountains see.   Most of us could give a flying fu#k at a rolling donut about Crotched.
> Turning top mountains like Attitash/Wildcat into the bargain basement of sking is a crime against skiers of the Northeast.


Crotched suffered horribly under Vail … went from being open 7 days a weeks to only 5, curtailed night skiing hours, reduced snowmaking, limited terrain open, and on and on …


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 24, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> So you like the surface hard and fast? That sounds suck to me.


No sucking. Just super firm uncontrollable hard pack. Def did not suck.


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## ss20 (Dec 24, 2022)

Vail "flagship" properties certainly get a majority of the attention.  Proof being Mount Snow replacing the Sundance reliever lift than only ran weekends and Stowe's relatively new 4,000ft Mountain Triple getting replaced before Attitash getting a new HSQ.


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## SteezyYeeter (Dec 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 55516
> Might’ve been a couple AZ’ers in this photo the whole time


he looks like an off-brand elon musk except he doesn't listen to the people who use his services


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## joshua segal (Dec 24, 2022)

urungus said:


> Crotched suffered horribly under Vail … went from being open 7 days a weeks to only 5, curtailed night skiing hours, reduced snowmaking, limited terrain open, and on and on …


Utter nonsense: Last season Crotched was unable to hire due to the strong economy (under 2% unemployment in NH). This season, with the $20 per hour minimum wage, Crotched is fully staffed, 7-days a week, snowmaking whenever there is the elusive thing called cold weather, 5-days a week of night skiing, Midnight Madness is back, there are extended hours in the cafeteria and the bar, etc.

When you lose a GM in the fall who did nothing over the summer to prepare for the season, the new GM had an impossible task and she did (and continues to do) an admirable job. 

There are many valid things for which to blame Vail - many of them discussed over the almost 400 pages of this thread.  Crotched's problems last season were not Vail related.


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## drjeff (Dec 24, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Vail "flagship" properties certainly get a majority of the attention.  Proof being Mount Snow replacing the Sundance reliever lift than only ran weekends and Stowe's relatively new 4,000ft Mountain Triple getting replaced before Attitash getting a new HSQ.



I look at it like Vail, with the Sundance lift in particular, is "fixing" the mistake ASC made 20yrs or so ago, when they moved the base of the Sundance lift up from where the new six pack starts to where it was for the last 20 years or so and then installed Tumbleweed.

Way back when, the "original" Sundance Triple was from the Sundance Lodge to where it drops off now.  Almost another base to summit lift like it once again is.

Vail replacing the Summit Triple at Attitash for next season is maybe a sign that they finally get that giving some love and attention to their North Conway area properties vs neglecting them as has been the case the previous few season is actually a good business model.... Time will tell I guess


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## jaytrem (Dec 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I look at it like Vail, with the Sundance lift in particular, is "fixing" the mistake ASC made 20yrs or so ago, when they moved the base of the Sundance lift up from where the new six pack starts to where it was for the last 20 years or so and then installed Tumbleweed.
> 
> Way back when, the "original" Sundance Triple was from the Sundance Lodge to where it drops off now.  Almost another base to summit lift like it once again is.
> 
> Vail replacing the Summit Triple at Attitash for next season is maybe a sign that they finally get that giving some love and attention to their North Conway area properties vs neglecting them as has been the case the previous few season is actually a good business model.... Time will tell I guess


I think when they first installed Sundance they advertised it as the longest chairlift in the world, or something along those lines.  They also had the length listed at over 7K.  Funny how the new lift in pretty much the exact location is shorter.


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## abc (Dec 24, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> No sucking. Just super firm uncontrollable hard pack. Def did not suck.


Uncontrollable hard pack didn’t suck? 

You just talked me out of going to Windham tomorrow. Thanks for the honest to god description. I mean it in a positive way.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2022)

*"Wishing you all a fucking EPIC Christmas!"


*


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 25, 2022)

abc said:


> Uncontrollable hard pack didn’t suck?
> 
> You just talked me out of going to Windham tomorrow. Thanks for the honest to god description. I mean it in a positive way.



I was being facetious. I was not at okemo


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## abc (Dec 25, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I was being facetious. I was not at okemo


Ah, sorry. Didn’t catch that.


----------



## zoomzoom (Dec 25, 2022)

the jaws of a detachable chairlift grip encircle the haul rope to such a degree that it cannot be plucked off without great force, a faulty spring, or jaw wear from a the haul rope running through it { as in the case of a deropement leading to a carrier being stuck in a sheave train }.  impact from slamming into a tower due to a wind event isn't sufficient to dislodge a grip from the rope.  this is known, so i did a little digging.

according to the owner/operator, the carrier was swinging and entered into the top terminal and became dislodged there.  of course this is where the jaws enter the grip opening section of the conveyance system.  this makes more sense, and isn't "extremely rare".          

“This could not have happened anywhere,” Sara Lococo, a spokesperson for Vail Resorts, said in an email response to a question from Summit Daily about whether the chair could have come dislodged anywhere along the tow. “This event was specific to the abnormal wind gust and the chair coming into contact with components of the upper terminal.”









						‘An extremely rare event’: Safety board says wind twisted chair coming into Breckenridge lift terminal, leading to fall
					

Editor’s note: This story was updated to correct a headline with an incorrect date. Blustery winds whipped, making it hard to see or hear much of anything as Brynne Goldberg ascended Peak 8 alone on...




					www.summitdaily.com


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## joshua segal (Dec 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I look at it like Vail, with the Sundance lift in particular, is "fixing" the mistake ASC made 20yrs or so ago, when they moved the base of the Sundance lift up from where the new six pack starts to where it was for the last 20 years or so and then installed Tumbleweed.
> 
> Way back when, the "original" Sundance Triple was from the Sundance Lodge to where it drops off now.  Almost another base to summit lift like it once again is.
> 
> Vail replacing the Summit Triple at Attitash for next season is maybe a sign that they finally get that giving some love and attention to their North Conway area properties vs neglecting them as has been the case the previous few season is actually a good business model.... Time will tell I guess


At the break-up of ASC, most of their resorts were in serious states of deferred maintenance. When Peak Resorts took over Mount Snow, they spent a lot of money - specifically on snowmaking. If I remember right, there were a limited number of years for which they had access to Haystack's water.  After spending a bundle on that - not to mention the Bluebird, they needed a few more seasons to absorb those costs.  That's when they were purchased by Vail. My trips to Mount Snow this fall showed more than a trivial interest in continuing to upgrade Mount Snow.

The parking issue is another subject entirely and one appropriate on this thread its title.


----------



## machski (Dec 25, 2022)

zoomzoom said:


> the jaws of a detachable chairlift grip encircle the haul rope to such a degree that it cannot be plucked off without great force, a faulty spring, or jaw wear from a the haul rope running through it { as in the case of a deropement leading to a carrier being stuck in a sheave train }.  impact from slamming into a tower due to a wind event isn't sufficient to dislodge a grip from the rope.  this is known, so i did a little digging.
> 
> according to the owner/operator, the carrier was swinging and entered into the top terminal and became dislodged there.  of course this is where the jaws enter the grip opening section of the conveyance system.  this makes more sense, and isn't "extremely rare".
> 
> ...


Also how Sunday River dropped a cabin off the Chondi last year or the year prior (can't recall which).


----------



## machski (Dec 25, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Utter nonsense: Last season Crotched was unable to hire due to the strong economy (under 2% unemployment in NH). This season, with the $20 per hour minimum wage, Crotched is fully staffed, 7-days a week, snowmaking whenever there is the elusive thing called cold weather, 5-days a week of night skiing, Midnight Madness is back, there are extended hours in the cafeteria and the bar, etc.
> 
> When you lose a GM in the fall who did nothing over the summer to prepare for the season, the new GM had an impossible task and she did (and continues to do) an admirable job.
> 
> There are many valid things for which to blame Vail - many of them discussed over the almost 400 pages of this thread.  Crotched's problems last season were not Vail related.


So it could have been the economy but it also could have been a massive wage miscalculation by overlord Vail.  I have heard stories local managers wanted to up the hourly wage but we're blocked/denied by Bloomfield.  In that case, major screw up by Vail.  And for this skier, they lack of operating days/nights at Crotched last year was a huge turn off to giving them the $ for a full Epic this year.  Did a 3 day to get a day of Stowe or 2 and a day or 2 with friends at Attitash/WC.  That's it, they pissed me off last season (don't care what the excuse was, cost me a ton of planned skiing at Crotched) and it won't rub off soon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 25, 2022)

machski said:


> So it could have been the economy but it also could have been a massive wage miscalculation by overlord Vail.  I have heard stories local managers wanted to up the hourly wage but we're blocked/denied by Bloomfield.  In that case, major screw up by Vail.  And for this skier, they lack of operating days/nights at Crotched last year was a huge turn off to giving them the $ for a full Epic this year.  Did a 3 day to get a day of Stowe or 2 and a day or 2 with friends at Attitash/WC.  That's it, they pissed me off last season (don't care what the excuse was, cost me a ton of planned skiing at Crotched) and it won't rub off soon.


Agreed. Market dynamics are one thing and can't be controlled. How Vail responded to the market is another. With a company that size, change comes slowly. I feel badly for Crotched folks who had a bad season last year. In fact, all the Vail resorts in NH had bad seasons in some form or another.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 25, 2022)

Got 16 runs in at Okemo today from 930-3. Everything was groomed, nothing icy or bare and no lines. 12 of 16 runs were off the Sunburst bubble due to the cold, which led to me doing more vertical feet than I ever had in a day - just shy of 25k. That's what a fast groomed surface and no lines on an express lift will do - even with 3 breaks to escape the cold.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2022)

I have one big issue with Stowe...SB has 80 runs open now..and before the storm they were almost 100% open...Stowe...30%
So to me it's like going to the buffet..paying full price...and getting 5 dishes to choose from.....and pay to park on weekends.
Really???


----------



## Edd (Dec 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have one big issue with Stowe...SB has 80 runs open now..and before the storm they were almost 100% open...Stowe...30%
> So to me it's like going to the buffet..paying full price...and getting 5 dishes to choose from.....and pay to park on weekends.
> Really???


Has SB scored significantly more natural than Stowe so far? Those numbers don’t make sense.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 25, 2022)

It’s about stowe/vail being pussies and sugarbush being liberal about letting the skier decide for themselves. and i guess on alterra allowing local ops teams to make those calls

south of 89 did better in the big storm than north of 89. but not THAT much better and i bet Stowe has picked up more lake effect showers. they’re just pussy bitches.


----------



## SLyardsale (Dec 25, 2022)

no mention of the eb5 / west lake upgrade by peak from the vail expert.  pats peaks sucks too.  no one goes there anymore.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 25, 2022)

You can't ski a stowe run if a rock pops out..except mid season.
No idea their reasoning...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 25, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> I have one big issue with Stowe...SB has 80 runs open now..and before the storm they were almost 100% open...Stowe...30%
> So to me it's like going to the buffet..paying full price...and getting 5 dishes to choose from.....and pay to park on weekends.
> Really???


Sounds like an EPIC offering to me.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 25, 2022)

They have no reasoning. You’ll ski one trail wondering why its even open then get to another and wonder why its closed as you duck the ropes.


----------



## ThatGuy (Dec 25, 2022)

Maybe no one wants to work ski patrol for them so they can’t open shit. That’s all I can think of.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 25, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Maybe no one wants to work ski patrol for them so they can’t open shit. That’s all I can think of.


Was it this bad under AIG?


----------



## thebigo (Dec 25, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> When you lose a GM in the fall who did nothing over the summer to prepare for the season, the new GM had an impossible task and she did (and continues to do) an admirable job.
> 
> There are many valid things for which to blame Vail - many of them discussed over the almost 400 pages of this thread.  Crotched's problems last season were not Vail related.



Joshua, do you actually believe that?

What you just described is malice on the part of the former GM.

Malice by local management is almost always the result of toxic leadership.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 25, 2022)

Mount Snow patrol has always been pretty good about opening "thin cover" trail.  They just put up a warning sign and let you have at it.  I really hope that doesn't change.


----------



## rebel1916 (Dec 25, 2022)

Mum skier said:


> Today at Okemo there was no sucking.


If this is true, it would be the first time in Okemo history there was no sucking...


----------



## joshua segal (Dec 26, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Joshua, do you actually believe that?
> 
> What you just described is malice on the part of the former GM.
> 
> Malice by local management is almost always the result of toxic leadership.


That is true.  From the time he was transferred from Mount Snow by Peak, he expressed nothing but contempt for the mountain and did create a toxic work environment for much of the staff. The new GM is the first in over a decade who really likes our mountain and is creating a very cooperative work environment.  She is creating a positivity that is reflected in all aspects of mountain ops.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 26, 2022)

It is good to see that Vail is this season doing written snow reports too. Nate W used to do great snow reports for there and Attitash. Not sure who is doing the current but at least there is something! On another note, the storm really wiped out Wildcat huh? It was at 77% open. Now just 12 trails. Gonna be a tough Christmas week up there.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 26, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Utter nonsense: Last season Crotched was unable to hire due to the strong economy (under 2% unemployment in NH). This season, with the $20 per hour minimum wage, Crotched is fully staffed, 7-days a week, snowmaking whenever there is the elusive thing called cold weather, 5-days a week of night skiing, Midnight Madness is back, there are extended hours in the cafeteria and the bar, etc.
> 
> When you lose a GM in the fall who did nothing over the summer to prepare for the season, the new GM had an impossible task and she did (and continues to do) an admirable job.
> 
> There are many valid things for which to blame Vail - many of them discussed over the almost 400 pages of this thread.  Crotched's problems last season were not Vail related.



I'm happy you are fully staffed this year.  Your excuses for last year are a copout and erroneous.  2020-21 I could accept your analysis.  Not last year.  Pat's had no problem staffing (or at least it wasn't a noticeable problem) and didn't reduce hours.  They draw from the same general population as Crotched for workers    Plenty of other places also did far better with staffing last season. Gunstock ran well, Cannon, Ragged, Loon.

And looking at the snowmaking efforts of the four NH Vail properties this season, the efforts are still substandard to prior ownership.    Maybe it's no longer staffing and just an austerity budget.  It's been a tough year for weather, but others are doing far better.  Sunapee should be right there with Loon in terms of open terrain and typically was under the Mueller's. 

I don't see anything compelling to win my business back.  I think I know what I'm looking at from afar too, having been a pass holder at those mountains 2012 through 2020, with 2015 being the loan exception.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 26, 2022)

Still amazed that Stowe has let almost all of the diamond and double d's remain closed.
Only 1 trail off the gondola...
They are finaly blowing nosedive..but it's almost January. 
I know they lost power but that's solved. 
Not spending much time there lately....


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## eatskisleep (Dec 26, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Still amazed that Stowe has let almost all of the diamond and double d's remain closed.
> Only 1 trail off the gondola...
> They are finaly blowing nosedive..but it's almost January.
> I know they lost power but that's solved.
> Not spending much time there lately....


I still stand by my comment in the other thread that Stowe is overrated. Sad what it has become.


----------



## doublediamond (Dec 26, 2022)

One thing to note about snowmaking at Vail areas is that for the most part they make snow deep and resurface only when necessary. They don’t hop back to the same trail many times. Eearly season it’s very slow to open terrain but that snow depth is deep.

Last year I was at Sunapee early season and they had 4-5 foot depths on the terrain that was open, but only 3 ways down from the top INCLUDING nothing open on the bunny area despite being open for weeks. They could be easily had double the terrain open (and this is still excluding the pillaging on the Sunapee snowmaking team to boost the Okemo snowmaking team they did last year).

It’s an approach that works out west but it doesn’t work in the east. They refuse to adapt.


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## SLyardsale (Dec 26, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm happy you are fully staffed this year.  Your excuses for last year are a copout and erroneous.  2020-21 I could accept your analysis.  Not last year.  Pat's had no problem staffing (or at least it wasn't a noticeable problem) and didn't reduce hours.  They draw from the same general population as Crotched for workers    Plenty of other places also did far better with staffing last season. Gunstock ran well, Cannon, Ragged, Loon.
> 
> And looking at the snowmaking efforts of the four NH Vail properties this season, the efforts are still substandard to prior ownership.    Maybe it's no longer staffing and just an austerity budget.  It's been a tough year for weather, but others are doing far better.  Sunapee should be right there with Loon in terms of open terrain and typically was under the Mueller's.
> 
> I don't see anything compelling to win my business back.  I think I know what I'm looking at from afar too, having been a pass holder at those mountains 2012 through 2020, with 2015 being the loan exception.


If there is an interest, you can read along with Crotched insiders on last year's struggles / excuses for Crotched over at the Vail Corp ski chat: Crotched 21-22

And, I continue to find this interesting as currently more posts ring up here on AZ than on SJ


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## oldfartrider (Dec 27, 2022)

Early season Stowe this year was way better than the bush. The bush had the same terrain open for weeks which was one trail off the valley chair and those few boring runs at gatehouse. The quality of the snow was also much better at Stowe than the bush.


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## drjeff (Dec 27, 2022)

doublediamond said:


> One thing to note about snowmaking at Vail areas is that for the most part they make snow deep and resurface only when necessary. They don’t hop back to the same trail many times. Eearly season it’s very slow to open terrain but that snow depth is deep.
> 
> Last year I was at Sunapee early season and they had 4-5 foot depths on the terrain that was open, but only 3 ways down from the top INCLUDING nothing open on the bunny area despite being open for weeks. They could be easily had double the terrain open (and this is still excluding the pillaging on the Sunapee snowmaking team to boost the Okemo snowmaking team they did last year).
> 
> It’s an approach that works out west but it doesn’t work in the east. They refuse to adapt.



One could argue that Killington, and other non Vail ski areas as well,  have started to adopt this strategy too, especially since it seems that more rain events as the season ramps up, is becoming a regular thing, and ski areas seem to be adapting to this by putting down deeper bases on snowmaking terrain as they roll those trails out to try and prevent a melt out that would cause them to have to go back to square 1 and completely recover a trail, almost from scratch, after a rain event(s).

Some ski areas just simply have more snowmaking firepower than others, and this shift in season starting strategies, combined with not so much natural snow help that sticks around for a while courtesy of mother nature, exposes this. I mean has anyone ever really condsidered places like Sugarbush, Stowe and Jay top tier with their snowmaking firepower?  And arguably one can say that while Killington has a TON of sheer size firepower they also have to deal with the fact that their system is as efficient as other resorts,, almost to the point where it's not far fetched to say that while their system is in the say top 3 or 5 in the East, it's not the #1 system in the East anymore when it comes to how quickly and efficiently they can cover multiple trails with enough snow to comfortably let them move onto new terrain to work on opening up

The reality is if you look at trail counts and acreage open right now (as it seems like another warm up and liquid event  is just a few days away) the ski areas, both large and small from South to North, known for their snowmaking firepower, in general seem to be doing OK trail count wise, whereas the ski areas who often rely more on natural snow, tend to be struggling more, across most of New England ski country, right now


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 27, 2022)

Lines weren't bad at Mt Snow on the 26th. Could be that all these Vail Sucks threads are making the Epic Pass a more awesome deal than ever.


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## drjeff (Dec 27, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Lines weren't bad at Mt Snow on the 26th. Could be that all these Vail Sucks threads are making the Epic Pass a more awesome deal than ever.



I think the only "lines" I waited in yesterday that were more than a hand full of chairs or so, were for the new Sunbrook Quad a few minutes after it opened (the other 4 times I rode it it was ski on), the Heavy Metal Triple shortly after Nitro went on hold a little after noon (Nitro had been maybe 1 or 2 groups in each of the 4 queue lanes prior to that late morning) and then the couple of times I rode the Bluebird to get out of the wind for a few minutes, and even then the Bluebird was closer to 5 minutes than 10 minutes with maybe 4 or 5 groups in each queue lane.  Sundance was ski on the 4 times I rode it,  Never made it over to the Northface yesterday as I am just not a fan of the shadows and flat light over there this time of the year over most of the length of the runs.....

Likley going to be a different story today, as I was driving home to CT yesterday afternoon, there were lots of non green license plate vehicles with full ski racks heading North.  Haven't heard anything from my wife and kids yet today who are out on the hill currently.

Things will likely be BUSY through Friday now, and then the masses will start heading back to the flatlands for New Years Eve parties as typically happens during X-mas week


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 27, 2022)

Due to 





drjeff said:


> I think the only "lines" I waited in yesterday that were more than a hand full of chairs or so, were for the new Sunbrook Quad a few minutes after it opened (the other 4 times I rode it it was ski on), the Heavy Metal Triple shortly after Nitro went on hold a little after noon (Nitro had been maybe 1 or 2 groups in each of the 4 queue lanes prior to that late morning) and then the couple of times I rode the Bluebird to get out of the wind for a few minutes, and even then the Bluebird was closer to 5 minutes than 10 minutes with maybe 4 or 5 groups in each queue lane.  Sundance was ski on the 4 times I rode it,  Never made it over to the Northface yesterday as I am just not a fan of the shadows and flat light over there this time of the year over most of the length of the runs.....
> 
> Likley going to be a different story today, as I was driving home to CT yesterday afternoon, there were lots of non green license plate vehicles with full ski racks heading North.  Haven't heard anything from my wife and kids yet today who are out on the hill currently.
> 
> Things will likely be BUSY through Friday now, and then the masses will start heading back to the flatlands for New Years Eve parties as typically happens during X-mas week


Due to cold I rode 7x on Buebird as a single and never waited more than 5 minutes. Also nice that there is an enclosed magic carpet ride.up from the free parking in lot E.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2022)

GSE down this morning, so a bit of a line at Canyon.  As for Sundance at 10:15....


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## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2022)

Sundance lift was "discovered" at approx 10:30 today.


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## drjeff (Dec 27, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Sundance lift was "discovered" at approx 10:30 today.



Kind of hoping that it was going to take the masses a little longer to get what a great addition that lift will be for getting people up the mountain...


----------



## catskillman (Dec 27, 2022)

Hunter is a zoo.  I have never seen so many people on the parkway after the north express drop off to the bottom.  I immediatly left - only to see an ambulance and a paramedic at the base.  Oh, and at 11 there were at least a hundred people buying passes and still poring in from the lot....

snow was good, but to many people........


----------



## eatskisleep (Dec 27, 2022)

Anyone at the Cat? 12 trails (2 runs?) versus 56 at Sunday River…


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## pinion247 (Dec 27, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Anyone at the Cat? 12 trails (2 runs?) versus 56 at Sunday River…



Cat was solid today, though as you mentioned not a ton open. Power outage left many stuck on the quad for half an hour. Most did not wait for the power to come back (around 1:30) so the rest of the day was nice and chill. 

Upper Wildcat remains skiable, but everyone just stuck to the usual groomers (Polecat, Catapult to Middle Wildcat to Bobcat). Cheetah and Wild Kitten getting the snowmaking treatment today and tonight by the looks of it.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 27, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Kind of hoping that it was going to take the masses a little longer to get what a great addition that lift will be for getting people up the mountain...


Lines mostly disappeared there after the GSE opened.

Great day other than somebody swiping my lunch bag (after lunch).  Crappy canvas bag, but had my nice thermos and cookies in it.  Lodge manager asked around, but no luck.  He was also kind enough to offer us some free stuff.  I thanked him but declined.  Very nice of him, and glad to see he's allowed to do such things.

Only other complaint is there are not enough people skiing the trees.  It would be nice if we got some help breaking up the crust.

Trail openings seem similar to pre Vail.  Good amount of the messy stuff open, so I appreciate that.


----------



## RichT (Dec 28, 2022)

catskillman said:


> Hunter is a zoo.  I have never seen so many people on the parkway after the north express drop off to the bottom.  I immediatly left - only to see an ambulance and a paramedic at the base.  Oh, and at 11 there were at least a hundred people buying passes and still poring in from the lot....
> 
> snow was good, but to many people........


That's because they're only 50% open...................


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 28, 2022)

lol. oh that’s why.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 28, 2022)

The few times I've skied Wildcat have been a positive experience so far. Things are looking better at Attitash as well although I haven't gone there yet. Sunapee opened Sunbowl today and Crotched back to normal operating hours. Overall I'm happy with NH operations this year so far after last 2 years disaster. 

The higher entry pay has to be the biggest factor IMO.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 28, 2022)

snoseek said:


> The few times I've skied Wildcat have been a positive experience so far. Things are looking better at Attitash as well although I haven't gone there yet. Sunapee opened Sunbowl today and Crotched back to normal operating hours. Overall I'm happy with NH operations this year so far after last 2 years disaster.
> 
> The higher entry pay has to be the biggest factor IMO.


The bar had been set pretty low.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2022)

RichT said:


> That's because they're only 50% open...................






*"50% open with a 100% profit potential for us. And you will fucking like it!"*


(Sounds like you made Rob and his troopers angry.  )


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 28, 2022)

LOL  I want to know why they took that photo... 

Also we are getting the attitash treatment at Roundtop with 1984 Dopp Triple. Last season it started surging at full speed so they ran it at half speed for the entire season.  No "EPIC LIFT UPGRADE".  Chatter was that it was to be replaced this summer and now said chatter is saying its not happening.  The thing is still running half speed and broke down this morning for a few hours.  

At least they buried the mountain this week and will likely have all but 1 or 2 trails open before the damn warm up.  Should be pretty weather proof but its going to be a long 2 weeks without snowmaking in January...


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 28, 2022)

Cat was ok today. Nothin to write home about.
They need more snomakers, is their story for the shitty snomaking so far.

Wifey wants to try Attitash tmrw...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> LOL  I want to know why they took that photo...


"I forced this guy to. He owed me some money."









						Robert Katz | Matthew Nager
					






					mattnager.photoshelter.com


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> getting the attitash treatment at Roundtop with 1984 Dopp Triple. Last season it started surging at full speed so they ran it at half speed for the entire season.  No "EPIC LIFT UPGRADE".  Chatter was that it was to be replaced this summer and now said chatter is saying its not happening.  The thing is still running half speed and broke down this morning for a few hours.


Which lift is that?


----------



## Edd (Dec 28, 2022)

My hope is to return to Epic next year but not hearing much for encouraging reports. Fingers crossed but I’m prepared to go Ikon, even though that’d be a PITA. I really want big snowmaking resorts as options, and I don’t have that this year.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

Stowe is not that big ....on snowmaking so far..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

And.......the transfer gondola between mansfield and spruce.....is broken....
Omg...on one of the busiest weeks...
Oy...vey...


----------



## thebigo (Dec 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> LOL  I want to know why they took that photo...
> 
> Also we are getting the attitash treatment at Roundtop with 1984 Dopp Triple. Last season it started surging at full speed so they ran it at half speed for the entire season.  No "EPIC LIFT UPGRADE".  Chatter was that it was to be replaced this summer and now said chatter is saying its not happening.  The thing is still running half speed and broke down this morning for a few hours.
> 
> At least they buried the mountain this week and will likely have all but 1 or 2 trails open before the damn warm up.  Should be pretty weather proof but its going to be a long 2 weeks without snowmaking in January...


What would you like to see at roundtop? Quad with a loading carpet or a high speed quad?


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 28, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Stowe is not that big ....on snowmaking so far..


You must be kidding right?  They have been blowing snow the entire season.  They have a minimum of 120 guns (sometimes they had up to 180 ) going all the time when the weather is available.  For an example to get sensation open for Xmas  they had 114 guns going just on Main Street   This is whats wrong with this thread people saying shit, just to say shit  I am not defending a lot of stuff Vail has done but lets be accurate.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 28, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And.......the transfer gondola between mansfield and spruce.....is broken....
> Omg...on one of the busiest weeks...
> Oy...vey...


No Oy…vey..  needed.  They had plenty of shuttles and busses bringing people back and forth.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 28, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> You must be kidding right?  They have been blowing snow the entire season.  They have a minimum of 120 guns (sometimes they had up to 180 ) going all the time when the weather is available.  For an example to get sensation open for Xmas  they had 114 guns going just on Main Street   This is whats wrong with this thread people saying shit, just to say shit  I am not defending a lot of stuff Vail has done but lets be accurate.



I think what was trying to be implied wasn't that Stowe hasn't been making snow (they certainly have) but that compared to other players, their system as of yet, isn't BIG. Factor in the length and pitch of many trails at Stowe (both of which add to the time it takes to cover a run adequately) and its often a challenge for them to roll out as many trails as some of its competitors can, quickly. Then add in the often challenging and frustrating weather Mother Nature has thrown at so many snowmakers the last 2 months more often than not.

I am fairly certain that the folks at Vail corporate haven't told the folks at Stowe, or probably any of their resorts, to hold back on snowmaking ahead of Christmas Week


----------



## Vter (Dec 28, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And.......the transfer gondola between mansfield and spruce.....is broken....
> Omg...on one of the busiest weeks...
> Oy...vey...


Bring back the shuttle bus to & from Spruce to Mansfield, driving a standard with one boot, parking wherever, single fixed gripped chair with 3 wool ponchos. Bring back “coupon books” fer a ride, bring back skiing over to Smuggs for a run or 3, bring back what it was…& Matterhorn non-talkers about the “Front 4” oh my…I drive buses full of racers from many Vt Towns through that Town & carefully make sure they get home safely. I watched a mountain shuttle let off 3 groups of 3-4, 1st ones crossed Mt Road, 2nd & 3rd were nearly Run-down by out of town heavy money rigs. blew the horn ! Nobody stopped as they found the pizza & liquor store parking. A-holes 
I simply can’t stand that town now.
I just came back from little Burke full of Racers…nice respectful kids and really nice and safe “take a run or 3 & go to work folks”
What a difference, sad Stowe, very Sad. I moved


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> And.......the transfer gondola between mansfield and spruce.....is broken....
> Omg...on one of the busiest weeks...
> Oy...vey...


Cutting costs. Plus they think folks need exercise after all the holiday eating. Win, win.


----------



## hovercraft (Dec 28, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I think what was trying to be implied wasn't that Stowe hasn't been making snow (they certainly have) but that compared to other players, their system as of yet, isn't BIG. Factor in the length and pitch of many trails at Stowe (both of which add to the time it takes to cover a run adequately) and its often a challenge for them to roll out as many trails as some of its competitors can, quickly. Then add in the often challenging and frustrating weather Mother Nature has thrown at so many snowmakers the last 2 months more often than not.
> 
> I am fairly certain that the folks at Vail corporate haven't told the folks at Stowe, or probably any of their resorts, to hold back on snowmaking ahead of Christmas Week


When you say competitors who are yo speaking of?  I agree on the length and pitch issue as it takes a lot of guns to cover a trail.  Main Street is case in point with plenty others you could use as an example.  As far as what he meant it’s not the first time Slug has commented on his disappointment about the snowmaking @ Stowe.  IMO it’s not reality.  As far as the thread goes there is a lot of legitimate issues people bring up.  With that being said I do feel like a lot of complaints are people just piling on, making assumptions, or speculating.  At some point in time people need to move on.  Just my 2 cents……..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Dec 28, 2022)

I'm just going to ski where I feel is best..I'm done thinking about all this...


----------



## PAabe (Dec 28, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Which lift is that?


I think that would be the Ramrod lift.  Most important lift on the hill to some


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## Vter (Dec 28, 2022)

Vter said:


> Bring back the shuttle bus to & from Spruce to Mansfield, driving a standard with one boot, parking wherever, single fixed gripped chair with 3 wool ponchos. Bring back “coupon books” fer a ride, bring back skiing over to Smuggs for a run or 3, bring back what it was…& Matterhorn non-talkers about the “Front 4” oh my…I drive buses full of racers from many Vt Towns through that Town & carefully make sure they get home safely. I watched a mountain shuttle let off 3 groups of 3-4, 1st ones crossed Mt Road, 2nd & 3rd were nearly Run-down by out of town heavy money rigs. blew the horn ! Nobody stopped as they found the pizza & liquor store parking. A-holes
> I simply can’t stand that town now.
> I just came back from little Burke full of Racers…nice respectful kids and really nice and safe “take a run or 3 & go to work folks”
> What a difference, sad Stowe, very Sad. I moved


Edit: I did not mean to imply that the Racer Kids or Coaches from Stowe are nothing less than Top-notch. They are respectful and just great focussed athletes & Staff. They have a great AD and it shows It is a privallege to serve them. It’s Epic and Vail that’s to blame for all this nonsense…it’s Disney World fake, now.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Dec 28, 2022)

PAabe said:


> I think that would be the Ramrod lift.  Most important lift on the hill to some


Yeah it is to me. If that is moving half speed it would be a reason for me to go elsewhere - typically Frost which is a little closer to me anyway - as if I had the inclination and time to go as far as Hunter I would not be considering Roundtop.


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## snoseek (Dec 28, 2022)

Edd said:


> My hope is to return to Epic next year but not hearing much for encouraging reports. Fingers crossed but I’m prepared to go Ikon, even though that’d be a PITA. I really want big snowmaking resorts as options, and I don’t have that this year.


Considering the weather its been ok. Before the rain they were pretty loose about opening natural stuff. Wildcat has never been a snowmaking powerhouse but as someone who skis a bit midweek maybe have a look at Loon they get stuff open FAST.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 29, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Which lift is that?





PAabe said:


> I think that would be the Ramrod lift.  Most important lift on the hill to some



Correct



thebigo said:


> What would you like to see at roundtop? Quad with a loading carpet or a high speed quad?



No high speed just a regular quad is fine. No need for a loading carpet either.  I'm sure they won't replace with a triple, but that too would be fine.  Just an fully functional and operational lift is all I require

Yes at half speed it slows down laps


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## FBGM (Dec 31, 2022)

You know what else sucks just as much as Vail? This weather….I blame Vail for that too


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## machski (Dec 31, 2022)

hovercraft said:


> When you say competitors who are yo speaking of?  I agree on the length and pitch issue as it takes a lot of guns to cover a trail.  Main Street is case in point with plenty others you could use as an example.  As far as what he meant it’s not the first time Slug has commented on his disappointment about the snowmaking @ Stowe.  IMO it’s not reality.  As far as the thread goes there is a lot of legitimate issues people bring up.  With that being said I do feel like a lot of complaints are people just piling on, making assumptions, or speculating.  At some point in time people need to move on.  Just my 2 cents……..


I think Stowe has been aggressive with Snowmaking.  What I think they have pulled back on big time since Vail took over is opening terrain on thin conditions that may one time the resort would have.  Slug is comparing Sugarbush to Stowe in this fashion, even though the Bush's system is far inferior to Stowe 's.  SB compensates by opening terrain on much less cover.


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## Dickc (Dec 31, 2022)

Well, the brand new progressive quad at Attitsh had a drive failure late yesterday, AND the backup drive would not run either!  Lift evac!  On a brand new lift.  Only at a Vail resort!!!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Well, the brand new progressive quad at Attitsh had a drive failure late yesterday, AND the backup drive would not run either!  Lift evac!  On a brand new lift.  Only at a Vail resort!!!


Actually, another brand new Dopp at Sundance had a similar failure two weeks ago.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

machski said:


> I think Stowe has been aggressive with Snowmaking.  What I think they have pulled back on big time since Vail took over is opening terrain on thin conditions that may one time the resort would have.  Slug is comparing Sugarbush to Stowe in this fashion, even though the Bush's system is far inferior to Stowe 's.  SB compensates by opening terrain on much less cover.


Yes...I of course will be at Stowe once these trails open..
This might take a while at this point point.
Looking towards the west now..


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## cdskier (Dec 31, 2022)

machski said:


> I think Stowe has been aggressive with Snowmaking.  What I think they have pulled back on big time since Vail took over is opening terrain on thin conditions that may one time the resort would have.  Slug is comparing Sugarbush to Stowe in this fashion, even though the Bush's system is far inferior to Stowe 's.  SB compensates by opening terrain on much less cover.



I kind of always thought Stowe's patrol was more conservative even pre-Vail. In terms of snow-making, considering that Stowe's system is more powerful than SB's, I think it is also disappointing a bit in how they've used the system. Here we are going into January and Stowe doesn't even have Nosedive open.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Here we are going into January and Stowe doesn't even have Nosedive open.


"So the categories are, 'Nosedive in January' or 'Corporate Executive Bonuses.' I'll take 'Corporate Executive Bonuses' for $1,000, Alex."


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

The answer is...Vail.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> The answer is...Vail.


"It is ALWAYS Vail. Happy Epic New Year, mother fuckers!"


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## ThatGuy (Dec 31, 2022)

Rob Katz: 
“Okay everybody look at the camera like you just found out theres no grooming on a powder day”


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

No one....is smiling in this picture...that's for sure...


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## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I kind of always thought Stowe's patrol was more conservative even pre-Vail. In terms of snow-making, considering that Stowe's system is more powerful than SB's, I think it is also disappointing a bit in how they've used the system. Here we are going into January and Stowe doesn't even have Nosedive open.



They were always conservative with dropping ropes early season dating back to 1995 when I moved there.  But, oddly, late season they would allow stuff to remain open even when very thin.

I don't recall a Christmas week during my time when Hayride and Nosedive weren't open.  Typically Lift line too.


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## hovercraft (Dec 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I kind of always thought Stowe's patrol was more conservative even pre-Vail. In terms of snow-making, considering that Stowe's system is more powerful than SB's, I think it is also disappointing a bit in how they've used the system. Here we are going into January and Stowe doesn't even have Nosedive open.


Agreed, being a season pass holder at both mountains over the years SB has always been more aggressive at opening trails compared to Vail,  pre or post . I also think Vail is more conservative than AIG was.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

Million dollar question..
Who is making these decisions?


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## NYDB (Dec 31, 2022)

inbound avy peak 10 at Breck.  missing persons reported


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## doublediamond (Dec 31, 2022)

There is supposedly a bad batch of bearings in the new Dopps


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## raisingarizona (Dec 31, 2022)

NYDB said:


> inbound avy peak 10 at Breck.  missing persons reported


Really?


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 31, 2022)

Where did you hear this?


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## NYDB (Dec 31, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Where did you hear this?


from an employee on site.  they confirmed at least 1 fatality. a 22 yo skiing with his dad.  

RIP.

news reports say it was ob..


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

NYDB said:


> from an employee on site.  they confirmed at least 1 fatality. a 22 yo skiing with his dad.
> 
> RIP.


Wow. I am not seeing that anywhere (yet).


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## NYDB (Dec 31, 2022)

Man killed in avalanche near Breckenridge Ski Resort
					

Summit County Rescue Group said the avalanche happened in a backcountry area called The Numbers, which is outside the Breckenridge Ski Resort boundary on Peak 10




					coloradosun.com


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## MidnightJester (Dec 31, 2022)

NYDB said:


> from an employee on site.  they confirmed at least 1 fatality. a 22 yo skiing with his dad.
> 
> RIP.
> 
> news reports say it was ob..


Sad there goes the love of the holidays and skiing for a while for that family. Best wishes to the family and anyone else caught in the Avalanche.


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## ss20 (Dec 31, 2022)

Not inbounds.

Not that it matters too greatly outside of the liability discussion.


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## MidnightJester (Dec 31, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Not inbounds.
> Not that it matters too greatly outside of the liability discussion.


Looked like a wide slide in the picture background between the trees from the rescue.
The fact that it happened just outside of the ski boundary and so close to Peak 10 which has a lift I wonder if they did Lift-assisted backcountry or just hiked in?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Not inbounds.
> 
> Not that it matters too greatly outside of the liability discussion.


Yeah, looks like it was in slack country (just outside the boundary). It still sucks--especially since it was a father and son.

I'm not in UT but I am seeing high snowfall amounts and high avalanche danger alerts.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

Getting sporty out there..think it's time to go.


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## cdskier (Dec 31, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't recall a Christmas week during my time when Hayride and Nosedive weren't open.  Typically Lift line too.



I almost mentioned Lift Line in my post as well, but thought maybe that was stretching it as my memory for Stowe isn't great as I only read the reports periodically and have never been a local/regular there. Nosedive I was fairly certain was always one they tried to get open relatively early though.


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## thebigo (Dec 31, 2022)

Just took a look at wildcat website. 

Is the lynx actually not open in January?

Assholes need to leave new hampshire.

I skied the lynx in October when peak ran wildcat.


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## Kingslug20 (Dec 31, 2022)

It's very simple..vail doesn't know or care about the history of these places..they are numbers on a spread sheet....


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## doublediamond (Jan 1, 2023)

Last two years Vail shifted off Lynx as the first to open to Catapult/Middle Wildcat/Bobcat despite it needing more snow to open.

Then they had to blow snow on the traverses (Cat Track?) just to link that route up with Tomcat JIC wind or mechanical issues with the Quad. Then tempt the long slog of getting Polecat open. Now they have focused on getting Wild Kitten and Chetah open as let’s be honest, Upper and Middle Polecat would be a blue at most other Vail properties.

Not the wisest strategy to get the most open as fast as possible. But they only care about the jerries that show up with the discount passes.


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## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2023)

thebigo said:


> Just took a look at wildcat website.
> 
> Is the lynx actually not open in January?
> 
> ...


Lynx is my favorite classic cruising trail in the Northeast...


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2023)

I won't deny that the weather has been tough this year, but Cat could be in far better shape if Vail actually cared given their elevation.  They've had the temps to make far more snow than they have thus far.  IMO, Xmas week should offer at minimum the TTB Polecat, Lynx and Catapult, Wild Kitten and the Snowcat area.  That might be 125 acres of snowmaking at most; probably much less.  Not a lot to ask / expect


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## 2Planker (Jan 1, 2023)

Short on snowmakers, short on groomers.....
 Plenty of cafeteria staff though


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2023)

2Planker said:


> Short on snowmakers, short on groomers.....
> Plenty of cafeteria staff though



That tells me three things.

1. They're paying enough and hiring aggressively for jobs that generate more ancillary income. They probably have full employment ranks for paid parking enforcement too where that applies.

2. They're not paying enough for on snow operations positions

3. They really don't care about delivering a great actual skiing product despite being the wealthiest ski company in the world. They just want people to show up and shovel down $13 crap cheeseburgers in the lodge and pay $30 to park.

I'm searching for a reason to come back to Vail because Wildcat was my favorite ski area in NH and Stowe my favorite in VT. 

I continue to come up empty with one good reason to do so.  A cheap pass isn't it


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## doublediamond (Jan 1, 2023)

Vail came in and slashed groomer wages in half because they deemed them too high. What happened? Most walked at both the Cat and Attitash. This is why even with the shitty snowmaking under Vail we still see whales for weeks to be grommed out, especially at Attitash.

While wages have gone up with the new corporate minimum, its not where it once was. IIRC you get an extra buck an hour vs cafeterias staff for snowmaking or grooming … snowmaking a highly demanding physical job in harsh elements and grooming a job demanding knowledge to operate $350,000 heavy machinery. 

Would you take a buck an hour to make snow vs shovel food in the cafeteria? Or take the buck for the skill of grooming, something that can take a season or more to master? No no sane person would. Vail is a joke.


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## Smellytele (Jan 1, 2023)

doublediamond said:


> Vail came in and slashed groomer wages in half because they deemed them too high. What happened? Most walked at both the Cat and Attitash. This is why even with the shitty snowmaking under Vail we still see whales for weeks to be grommed out, especially at Attitash.
> 
> While wages have gone up with the new corporate minimum, its not where it once was. IIRC you get an extra buck an hour vs cafeterias staff for snowmaking or grooming … snowmaking a highly demanding physical job in harsh elements and grooming a job demanding knowledge to operate $350,000 heavy machinery.
> 
> Would you take a buck an hour to make snow vs shovel food in the cafeteria? Or take the buck for the skill of grooming, something that can take a season or more to master? No no sane person would. Vail is a joke.


Don’t piss off joshua he‘ll close this thread. Oh wait this isn’t sj.


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## doublediamond (Jan 1, 2023)

Manage by numbers with edicts from Broomfield simply doesn’t work when you have easily 5 tiers of resorts spread across doezens of markets across several countries.

It worked when Vail owned 4 ski areas within an hour of each other within the same market and all at the same caliber.  It doesn’t work now.

If a property can’t attract workers all they do is raise their hands in anguish and try to coerce workers to shift duties. A stand alone resort, or one managed more locally like Ikon properties can make the smart choice to offer a higher wage for a needed duty (e.g. snowmakers or groomers). And  the MWV may perhaps be one of the most competitive worker markets in the northeast ski industry as depending on where the worker is coming from they can easily commute to 9 non-Vail properties (Bretton Woods, Cannon, Loon, King Pine, Cranmore, Black, Sunday River, Mt. Abram, Pleasant Mtn.)


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2023)

Anyone know the wages at Cat for these three positions?

1. Cafeteria or other inside customer service position

2. Snowmaker

3. Groomer


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## cdskier (Jan 1, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know the wages at Cat for these three positions?
> 
> 1. Cafeteria or other inside customer service position
> 
> ...



None of those jobs are currently listed as open on the Wildcat job list. Attitash does have a Snowmaker job posted and it is listed as starting at $20/hr (which is the new Vail minimum...so I'm assuming Cafeteria would be the same). I checked some other resorts and at Mt Snow they have an "Experienced Snow Cat Operator" job posted which lists it again starting at $20/hr. (FWIW, not all jobs start at $20/hr as I saw some Lift Electrician ones that started at $28...so it isn't like they are just listing $20/hr for everything across the board...but that seems to be the base rate they are indeed using for grooming and snowmaking).


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## drjeff (Jan 1, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know the wages at Cat for these three positions?
> 
> 1. Cafeteria or other inside customer service position
> 
> ...


Minimum of $20/hr

Plenty of situations where years of experience and/or various types/levels of professional association certification increase that base rate


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2023)

I guess that's my point.  If you are advertising the same wage for a snowmaker vs a cashier, how many people are going to apply for those snowmaking jobs?

I'd want at least $25 if the cashier job pays $20. Maybe more to be honest.  The hours for a snowmaker stink and are inconsistent.  The working conditions are tough  Your position is laid off earlier in the season.  I'd even say that though operating a groomer might require more skill, it's an "easier" job.

Some people might say, that snowmakers are wired different and really love the work and it's not all about the money, but there's just not enough of those kind of people.  Isn't that obvious if resorts are short staffed for such a critical position?

It just goes to show that Vail continues to just not get the eastern market.   They try and operate their properties here like it's Colorado.


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## gittist (Jan 2, 2023)

One size fits all....


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## FBGM (Jan 2, 2023)

Hearing reports of a tree fell on a lift today at Cantons/PC - 1 dead. That’s about all the info I have so far. Curious to see what more comes in for info


----------



## oldfartrider (Jan 2, 2023)

Been skiing/snowboarding wildcat since the 70s. That’s place always sucked in light snow years


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## FBGM (Jan 2, 2023)

Was confirmed. Employee was the fatality. 

Not to take away from tragedy but just another “lift” issue associated with Vail


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## raisingarizona (Jan 2, 2023)

gittist said:


> One size fits all....


That’s the big corporate mentality


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## hardscrabble (Jan 2, 2023)

Park City Mountain Employee Killed After Tree Falls on Chairlift
					

A tree fell on the Short Cut triple around 10:45 am this morning at Park City Mountain, causing an employee to fall at least 25 feet. Despite swift rescue efforts, the worker did not survive. The m…




					liftblog.com
				




I love to hate Vail as much as the next guy, but this sounds like it was a freak situation that could have happened anywhere. RIP


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2023)

hardscrabble said:


> Park City Mountain Employee Killed After Tree Falls on Chairlift
> 
> 
> A tree fell on the Short Cut triple around 10:45 am this morning at Park City Mountain, causing an employee to fall at least 25 feet. Despite swift rescue efforts, the worker did not survive. The m…
> ...


I just read that. Goddamn that sucks.


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## pinion247 (Jan 3, 2023)

thebigo said:


> Just took a look at wildcat website.
> 
> Is the lynx actually not open in January?
> 
> ...



Word on the street is no intent on blowing snow on Upper Lynx in the immediate future. Take that with a grain of salt, this is just stuff talked about on lift rides over the past week.

Making snow on - and opening - Wild Kitten sounds awesome but becomes comical real quick when you realize you needed to take Tomcat lift, cross Cat Track onto Middle Wildcat to get to it for most of the holiday week. God help any green-level skier who needed to traverse that boilerplate hellscape to reach an otherwise amazing beginner trail (with an equally amazing snowmaking effort). Hopefully the kinks on Bobcat lift are fixed for good and that lift can reliably run for the weekend crowd.

MWV needs more snow. Less rain. And reliable temps. Things might get ugly for MLK weekend if this warm air idles too long.

I will say this: Wildcat staff really stepped up their game so far this year. Communicative, willing to listen, willing to explain issues instead of pretending they don't exist.


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## drjeff (Jan 3, 2023)

hardscrabble said:


> Park City Mountain Employee Killed After Tree Falls on Chairlift
> 
> 
> A tree fell on the Short Cut triple around 10:45 am this morning at Park City Mountain, causing an employee to fall at least 25 feet. Despite swift rescue efforts, the worker did not survive. The m…
> ...


Tough day in the PC area yesterday with this incident on the Canyons side of the PC resort , and then the passing of motorsports icon, Ken Block in a snowmobile accident near PC where he lives


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## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2023)

Read that this morning...following him for a long time...totaly sux.
I was somewhat scared riding a snowmobile my first time...very easy to flip..which almost everyone did.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 3, 2023)

one of my coworkers was seriously injured a few years ago on a snowmobile.  He played football at Cornell and he's a pretty big dude.  The Drs said that his size is the only thing that saved him from being killed.  Numerous surgeries and long rehab.  He had never rode one before and just hit a bump that threw the sled into a tree at a moderate (~40 MPH) speed.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 3, 2023)

Saw Jeremy Renner got ran over by his plow too, rough week for celebs. Does it say anywhere what happened to Block, was it an avy or crash?

Snowmobiles seem incredibly dangerous. Only ridden a few times but they have some serious power behind them. 
Tug Hill has a bar by the entrance to the snowmobile trails, powerful motor vehicles and drunk idiots is a bad combo.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 3, 2023)




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## drjeff (Jan 3, 2023)

ThatGuy said:


> Saw Jeremy Renner got ran over by his plow too, rough week for celebs. Does it say anywhere what happened to Block, was it an avy or crash?
> 
> Snowmobiles seem incredibly dangerous. Only ridden a few times but they have some serious power behind them.
> Tug Hill has a bar by the entrance to the snowmobile trails, powerful motor vehicles and drunk idiots is a bad combo.



Read that he was heading down a slope and that his sled landed on him.  No other details that I have seen yet.

Guessing my youngest might hear some more details later this week as he's flying out to UT with one of his friends and his friend's father tomorrow and then they're actually going out with Park City Powder Cats on Saturday after some inbounds skiing Thurs/Fri


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 3, 2023)

My friend signed us up for an intermediate tour..none of us except him ever rode one..
I decided to be a bit chill on it...they went all out..flipping them all over in the super deep snow...mine overturned at very low speed into a tree well...
Most exhausting day ever....
Ken could parallel park a car at 100 mph..backwards blind folded...yet a damn snow mobile does him in...
Sux... such a great loss...


----------



## doublediamond (Jan 3, 2023)

Salary.Com lists VT electricians averaging $31/hr and starting $28.50/hr for union work.

If you have the skills to be an electrician, why in god’s name would you decide to be a lift electrcian for $28/hr In  harsh winter conditions?

Even if you count that full freight Epic Pass cost as income per hour worked, you’re still only at $28.40. And that only works _IF _they get the pass for free.

Vail is still out of the loop even with their ”significant” investment in employees.


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## joshua segal (Jan 4, 2023)

doublediamond said:


> Salary.Com lists VT electricians averaging $31/hr and starting $28.50/hr for union work.
> 
> If you have the skills to be an electrician, why in god’s name would you decide to be a lift electrcian for $28/hr In  harsh winter conditions?
> 
> ...


I'm surprised the VT average is that low.  It's closer to $100 per hour in the greater Boston area.  That being said, the number you cite is only 5% below VT average - and as skiers: are you are aware that we like winter?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2023)

doublediamond said:


> Salary.Com lists VT electricians averaging $31/hr and starting $28.50/hr for union work.
> 
> If you have the skills to be an electrician, why in god’s name would you decide to be a lift electrcian for $28/hr In  harsh winter conditions?
> 
> ...


Many lift ops electricians are full time, year round employees of the resort, and the benefits that that offers (medical insurance, 401k, etc) may be better with a larger ski resort company than a smaller "traditional" electrician company. Also if an electrician is employeed by a ski area, their job site is always the same geographic location vs having to potentially travel over a larger geographic area to get to their job(s) that day, and working for a ski resort likely means that they don't have to deal with the hassels that collecting payment for the work they did for some customers will inevitably cause some electricians.

There are often numerous reasons why someone may want to work for 1 organization over another that on the surface may make little sense to "us" simply because we aren't that person doing the job and have their personality and past work/life experiences


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2023)

joshua segal said:


> I'm surprised the VT average is that low.  It's closer to $100 per hour in the greater Boston area.  That being said, the number you cite is only 5% below VT average - and as skiers: are you are aware that we like winter?


Josh it isn’t what they charge per hour it is what they make per hour. So a company may charge 100 but they aren’t taking that home.


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## joshua segal (Jan 4, 2023)

Smellytele said:


> Josh it isn’t what they charge per hour it is what they make per hour. So a company may charge 100 but they aren’t taking that home.


I stand corrected: For Boston, salaried electricians average* $37.69 per hour.* Low $22.84. High $62.20


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## Mainer (Jan 4, 2023)

I’m a contractor in the mwv, it’s close to impossible to find an electrician. They all charge $75 + an hour. The one I use is closer to a $100 and is well worth it because he returns my calls and shows up when he says he will. Its hard to find a reliable skilled laborer for under $30. If there is any licensed electricians willing to work for $30 an hour, I’ll give you a full time job with benefits. Doesn’t exist


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2023)

Smellytele said:


> Josh it isn’t what they charge per hour it is what they make per hour. So a company may charge 100 but they aren’t taking that home.



Yeah, my uncle has been a master electrician in metro Boston for 40+ years.  He does well for himself, but not $200k/year well for himself.  

On that same token, my company charges $240/hr for on demand work.  That includes overnight travel expenses when necessary.  The surplus rate covers that plus tools, vehicle costs etc.   When you are paying a tradesman $100/hr, I bet wages represent maybe a bit over half that amount.  The rest is to cover travel and fixed costs.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 4, 2023)

There are so many things about that $30 rate that we do not know about.  It is VT and probably an open shop rate.  What is that number?  Does it include belefits?  Who are they employing?  Do they have offcial training in the specific job that they are applying for or is the mountain going to train them.  Meaning is it an entry level job or an apprentice position?  401K?  what type of insurance?  Is it part time?  Do you get overtime or is it salary?  How many hours a week gaurenteed? Everything.

Boston electricans especialy Local 103 are some of the most well paid in the country so there is no way to compare the two.


----------



## Hawk (Jan 4, 2023)

Also, I have employed a fair amount of electricians in VT.  $50/Hour is probably the lowest I have seen and that was a few years ago on a small job.  $75 for a good master electrican is common and $50 for helpers.  They are hard to find because the good ones are so in demand and people generaly suck to work for because they do not pay well or on time.  It's hard work especially with the lack of code or inspectors over the years.  Electricians walk into impossible situations that end up costing thousands and people don't understand.  They think it is magic and should cost nothing.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 4, 2023)

thetrailboss said:


> I just read that. Goddamn that sucks.



Just saw some more details on this.

Apparently the deceased was a 29yr old patroller who was on duty at the time.  Haul rope is typically 25 ft or so above the ground where the incident happened, authorities speculated that when the snow ladened tree suddenly fell on the haul rope that the oscilation in the chair it caused could of made the fall up to 50 feet. Vail Corporate policy is that all employees while riding a lift have to have the safety bar down. Was not mentioned in the update if the status of the safety bar was known or not.

Having ridden that lift many times over the years, I would guess that the incident happened on the side closer to Red Pine Lodge rather than Lookout Cabin, as the Red Pine Lodge side loads in a area where there are a bunch of tall pines trees before the lift descends down a valley and then climbs up the other side of the valley to the Lookout cabin side where the hillside is mostly covered in low height scrub brush. Such a tragic, sounds like a total fluke event. May he RIP


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 4, 2023)

So..Jeremy Renner got run over by a full blown 14000 grooming machine he owns...and lived! Friggin super hero.


----------



## Edd (Jan 4, 2023)

Kingslug20 said:


> So..Jeremy Renner got run over by a full blown 14000 grooming machine he owns...and lived! Friggin super hero.


I need to understand how this happened. Details are vague.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 4, 2023)

Edd said:


> I need to understand how this happened. Details are vague.


What I read was that some car he owned was stuck and he was trying to get it out using the cat. He got out of the cat and it started to move so he tried to jump back into it to stop it and that's when the accident happened.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 4, 2023)

he was trying to get a car unstuck (which was being driven by other family members) so he got his pisten bully and headed out to help them.  

while doing that he exited his pisten bully to communicate with them and it began to move.  he tried to get back in the runaway bully, missed and got run over.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

Wow thats rough, can’t believe he’s alive.
Imagine getting run over by this…


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 4, 2023)

Damn...

Must be nice to own a Snowcat to plow your driveway!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2023)

drjeff said:


> Just saw some more details on this.
> 
> Apparently the deceased was a 29yr old patroller who was on duty at the time.  Haul rope is typically 25 ft or so above the ground where the incident happened, authorities speculated that when the snow ladened tree suddenly fell on the haul rope that the oscilation in the chair it caused could of made the fall up to 50 feet. Vail Corporate policy is that all employees while riding a lift have to have the safety bar down. Was not mentioned in the update if the status of the safety bar was known or not.
> 
> Having ridden that lift many times over the years, I would guess that the incident happened on the side closer to Red Pine Lodge rather than Lookout Cabin, as the Red Pine Lodge side loads in a area where there are a bunch of tall pines trees before the lift descends down a valley and then climbs up the other side of the valley to the Lookout cabin side where the hillside is mostly covered in low height scrub brush. Such a tragic, sounds like a total fluke event. May he RIP


Honestly it sounds like a safety bar would not have made much difference considering the force involved.


----------



## FBGM (Jan 5, 2023)

It was a pleasure of mine to meet Ken and his family on several occasions when I lived in Park City. He was very humble and an outright good dude. Sad all around. 

Sad about patroller. 

Scary about that snowcat incident. Can run those old PBs with door open and no parking brake 

Pretty over bad stuff here at beginning of 2023


----------



## Duke61 (Jan 5, 2023)

FBGM said:


> It was a pleasure of mine to meet Ken and his family on several occasions when I lived in Park City. He was very humble and an outright good dude. Sad all around.
> 
> Sad about patroller.
> 
> ...


Cannon used to have an ancient PB with a passenger/cargo box that didn't get used much, I wonder if it still stashed away or if some state of NH accountant sold it long ago...darn thing was so old it wasn't flat front, it had cab/hood like a pickup truck.  I rode in it once and the mechanical noises that resonated inside were scary.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Jan 5, 2023)

Kingslug20 said:


> So..Jeremy Renner got run over by a full blown 14000 grooming machine he owns...and lived! Friggin super hero.


Most people have no idea how to operate anything over 4 tons. The potential energy of these machines is hard to understand.

For example: You're hauling rock in a dump truck, you raise the front of the bed and the truck tips over. Why, because you've raised the center of gravity.

Rich people buy toys they don't understand, and the beat goes on...


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2023)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Rich people buy toys they don't understand, and the beat goes on...


Keyboard warrior don’t know who he’s talking about… and the beast goes on.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2023)

abc said:


> Keyboard warrior don’t know who he’s talking about… and the beast goes on.


At least he posted something that you can understand.


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2023)

Smellytele said:


> At least he posted something that you can understand.


LOL!

It’s better when I don’t understand it.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

I’m convinced he is either sauced or 100% sober when posting because his paragraphs range from completely coherent or make me feel like I’m reading a poorly translated Japanese robot.


----------



## Dickc (Jan 5, 2023)

abc said:


> Keyboard warrior don’t know who he’s talking about… and the beast goes on.


Bode has a relative that runs a fairly good sized operation working on highways for the state of New Hampshire.  https://edswett.com/


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

We have no idea how long Mr Renner has owned it...freak thing...he got lucky.
Remember the guy that played chekov on the new star trek movies...he got crushed to death by his jeep...
Shit happens..


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2023)

In yet another example of Vail sucking, I had been signed up for a two day Master's GS Race Camp next Wednesday and Thursday at Mt Snow.  I had been really looking forward to it.  

Mt Snow just cancelled the camp saying they don't have enough snow to support it.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Even with this bad run of weather, Mt Snow hasn't made enough snow to set aside one training trail midweek for 32 participants?  Are you serious?  I bet even Gunstock could have supported it this week. 

This is just another example of Vail totally failing at being aggressive with early season snowmaking.  They are absolutely awful at Eastern Ski operations.

That company can't die soon enough.  
Fuck Vail


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2023)

Issues at Wildcat today with the quad. Not just to start the day but later on with a sensor issue.


----------



## NYDB (Jan 5, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> In yet another example of Vail sucking, I had been signed up for a two day Master's GS Race Camp next Wednesday and Thursday at Mt Snow.  I had been really looking forward to it.
> 
> Mt Snow just cancelled the camp saying they don't have enough snow to support it.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Even with this bad run of weather, Mt Snow hasn't made enough snow to set aside one training trail midweek for 32 participants?  Are you serious?  I bet even Gunstock could have supported it this week.
> 
> ...


Yeah……at the risk of stepping on dr Jeff’s toes, I’d give mount snow a pass on this one.  

I know Stratton had to cancel some race training and related activities today.  

its fucking rough out here right now in so vt.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2023)

Seems to me they have plenty of windows to refresh trails and expand terrain over the next several days prior to the event.   

How busy is it honestly going to be midweek that you can't devote one freaking trail to race training? 

I know the weather has been brutal, but I do think this is at least partially an indictment on how poor Vails efforts have been at making Snow early season.  That's definitely true in NH compared to much of the competition.


----------



## gittist (Jan 5, 2023)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Damn...
> 
> Must be nice to own a Snowcat to plow your driveway!


My driveway would a lot easier to take care of with one!!!  I like snow anywhere but on my driveway.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 5, 2023)

Do you know what trail they were going to use?  Plenty of snow on Inferno right now, there are often gates set up on there.  Perhaps they can't accommodate both the Academy and your GS group.  May have needed Ego?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems to me they have plenty of windows to refresh trails and expand terrain over the next several days prior to the event.
> 
> How busy is it honestly going to be midweek that you can't devote one freaking trail to race training?
> 
> I know the weather has been brutal, but I do think this is at least partially an indictment on how poor Vails efforts have been at making Snow early season.  That's definitely true in NH compared to much of the competition.



Simply put, South Bowl is the only trail that realistically could be used for that Masters Camp logistically. It was going to factor in to getting all 70+ rolls of b-net set up prior to the U12 and U14 races the following weekend. It is currently the only trail of appropriate length at Mount Snow that has the dedicated timing wire in place to hold a GS for that level (can't use the wireless system my home hill race department also has and uses in some trails for other timed events the mountain hosts).

The other option, Inferno, is scheduled to get pummeled with snowmaking ASAP and for a while as it's the site venue for the USASA Futures Tour Slopestyle event in 2 weeks (hopefully if they can make enough snow for the planned 40 - 60 ft gap jumps near the bottom of the run). 

And even though South Bowl got 1 good run under the guns towards the end of the Christmas Week cold, the last week did way too much damage and that hill takes a significant amount of the air the mountain has, even with the low e HKD's and Snowlogics that line it. The reality is looking at the forecast and what the mountain currently looks like, and with MLK Weekend looming, they had to prioritize their snowmaking plan, and getting Southbowl reopened by Wednesday, and netted up properly, just wasn't in the cards.

Heck I know it's taken a herculean effort by BIG race crews the last couple of days to get the men's (at Burke) and Women's (at Stratton) off the last 2 days. And this weekend if it wasn't for the fact that it only requires flattish terrain, Mount Snow would of had to cancel the Southern VT Council U10 and U12 skills competition they're hosting. Heck, even my daughter who has been up at Sunday River since Monday and will be there through early next week for her college race team pre season training camp told me they gave up on training before lunch today because of how sketchy the snow was getting.

Wish my home hill could of pulled the Masters Camp and race off, as with my newly acquired USSSA Race Official Status, I was supposed to be the head starter for the 2 GS's that were scheduled for next Friday. I could of DQ'd you for inappropriate filling out of a GS suit!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2023)

jaytrem said:


> Do you know what trail they were going to use?  Plenty of snow on Inferno right now, there are often gates set up on there.  Perhaps they can't accommodate both the Academy and your GS group.  May have needed Ego?


Inferno is supposed to get hit BIG TIME with snowmaking right after the core trail recovery efforts are done, as it's (Inferno) slated to be the location of the USASA futures tour slopestyle comp in about 2 weeks. And they need enough snow to build Inferno up like they used to. Which means there's no way you could safely race/train on it during that snowmaking assault


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2023)

jaytrem said:


> Do you know what trail they were going to use?  Plenty of snow on Inferno right now, there are often gates set up on there.  Perhaps they can't accommodate both the Academy and your GS group.  May have needed Ego?



No idea.  The camp director only sent out a cancellation notice stating "Mt Snow has determined they do not have the snow to support the event"

The event was all five days, 2 days SL training, 2 days GS training and then a Master's GS Race on Friday.  Trainings you could do just SL, just GS or book both.  There were 32 of us booked for GS. 

Just seems like they could find a spot for 32 participants to train during one of the slowest midweeks of the year. Wouldn't even need a full GS course.  Timed runs were only about 25% of the curriculum.  I'd have been fine just doing drills with flags and short sections of gates.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2023)

Meanwhile, Vail doesn't suck out in Park City right now...

My youngest sent me this today from up on 9990 where he was skiing with some friends today...  They're skiing the Park City side of the resort tomorrow (I'm guessing my phone will be getting pics from Jupiter Bowl tomorrow as I am at work  ) then out with Park City Powder Cats on Saturday and then either the AM shift at Deer Valley or Park City on Sunday before hopping on the plane to Boston home... I wish I was my youngest kid these next few days!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2023)

Jeff, I guess my overall point is that I look at Boyne ski areas, and all three of their majors have the terrain available right now to have held these camps. They haven't had a significant weather advantage if any save for maybe Sugarloaf compared to Mt Snow.  Killington likely could too.

A lot of Vails portfolio were once renown for their snowmaking efforts, Mt Snow, Sunapee and especially Okemo.  They just don't seem to be taking advantage of every short early season window like they once did.

I'd love for my observations to be proven wrong.  Not an exact science, but I bet if you tracked gallons pumped per month over the past ten years, you'd see weaker efforts early season at Vail properties than under prior owners.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

9990 is awesome...


----------



## abc (Jan 5, 2023)

Kingslug20 said:


> 9990 is awesome...


I prefer not having to hike…

Going to Colorado soon. Tucker Mountain at Copper and Beaver at AB. Both new to me. Looking forward to it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> In yet another example of Vail sucking, I had been signed up for a two day Master's GS Race Camp next Wednesday and Thursday at Mt Snow.  I had been really looking forward to it.
> 
> Mt Snow just cancelled the camp saying they don't have enough snow to support it.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Even with this bad run of weather, Mt Snow hasn't made enough snow to set aside one training trail midweek for 32 participants?  Are you serious?  I bet even Gunstock could have supported it this week.
> 
> ...


Vail does not like racing. Period. The only exception is their event at Beaver Creek. PCMR was a big ski racing destination and they frequently had big races to generate interest and business with ancillary events. Vail is only concerned about EPIC and other profit centers related to EPIC. Other things such as events are a loss in their minds.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2023)

NYDB said:


> Yeah……at the risk of stepping on dr Jeff’s toes, I’d give mount snow a pass on this one.
> 
> I know Stratton had to cancel some race training and related activities today.
> 
> its fucking rough out here right now in so vt.


I am honestly stunned. In my lifetime living out here (31 years) I have never seen an extended streak of absolutely terrible weather at a crucial time of the season. Sure there have been some spikes in temps that erased snow, but there would be a resumption of colder temps to allow for snowmaking. The only thing I can compare this to is maybe the start of 2006-2007. It was warm and I remember the skiing absolutely sucking until February 14, 2007 when we got the first of three or four big storms that coincidentally fell on major holidays (Valentine's Day, Good Friday/Easter, and even Patriot's Day IIRC).

We arrived in BOS on December 27th and I looked at the forecast and was thinking, "well, it will change." We arrived at my folks to find a very thin and saturated/frozen snowpack that has now all disappeared in a week. Burke was pretty bad honestly. They got a solid base on the Dippers and barely opened the lower mountain as well as Willoughby-Lower Bear Den before we skied, but the trails were firm and icy base with little natural snow. Carriage Road was barely skiable. Folks at the mountain told me that the snowmaking team had been doing a bang-up job, but there's not much you can do when it rains, rains, and rains.

We left the NEK on Monday, January 2nd and drove north and east to Sugarloaf. There was NO snow here in the NEK on the ground. The snowmobile mecca, Island Pond, had maybe a 1-3" base and was dead. Once we got up to Dixville Notch did we start seeing a more solid snowpack. Heading into Maine and Rangeley there was a respectable amount of snow. Sugarloaf had apparently gotten 3-4" of natural before the bad storm and the natural snow was firm and patchy in some places. Snowmaking saved them--deep bases thanks to a massive pumping upgrade this summer. Even then we had two days of spring conditions more like April. I can honestly say that if it was not for Sugarloaf we would not have skied this week. Period. If anyone is wondering, that mountain has really lucked out in this terrible pattern but not by much. 

By the time we left and drove back down to Route 2 (due to icing/snow/sleet this morning) it was snowing pretty decently on the mountain but there was little snow in Farmington and none pretty much all along Route 2.

I really hope this changes for NE. It looks like a slight cool down this weekend before a bounce back up to above normal temps (but not as much). This "snow event" has been a complete bust so far. I did not see any real snow in the forecast until maybe next weekend for Vermont.

Seeing Burke at 11 trails, Jay at 18 (and pics of patchy snow on CanAm), Bolton at 9, MRG at 2, and other places in the low double digits is pretty surprising and sad.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Jan 5, 2023)

abc said:


> I prefer not having to hike…
> 
> Going to Colorado soon. Tucker Mountain at Copper and Beaver at AB. Both new to me. Looking forward to it.


No hiking needed...
They closed the back country gate any way.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2023)

deadheadskier said:


> Jeff, I guess my overall point is that I look at Boyne ski areas, and all three of their majors have the terrain available right now to have held these camps. They haven't had a significant weather advantage if any save for maybe Sugarloaf compared to Mt Snow.  Killington likely could too.
> 
> A lot of Vails portfolio were once renown for their snowmaking efforts, Mt Snow, Sunapee and especially Okemo.  They just don't seem to be taking advantage of every short early season window like they once did.
> 
> I'd love for my observations to be proven wrong.  Not an exact science, but I bet if you tracked gallons pumped per month over the past ten years, you'd see weaker efforts early season at Vail properties than under prior owners.


Just as an FYI, looking at the VARA (VT Alpine Racing Association) Killington has already postponed 2 FIS level races scheduled for next Monday and Tuesday.

No idea as to an across the Vail Resorts portfolio of how early season pumping now vs under their previous owners. Really can't make a straight up comparison at my home hill as just before Vail bought Mount Snow is when the total game changer West Lake snowmaking upgrade came on line, and they've made a lot of snow this year, and also taken plenty of warm air, probably close to 6" of rain since they opened for the season, and now almost a week of temps that basically haven't gotten below freezing with plenty of fog and some rain too.

Mother Nature has been a real B$tch to the Northeast ski industry this year as a whole so far


----------



## snoseek (Friday at 5:07 AM)

thetrailboss said:


> I am honestly stunned. In my lifetime living out here (31 years) I have never seen an extended streak of absolutely terrible weather at a crucial time of the season. Sure there have been some spikes in temps that erased snow, but there would be a resumption of colder temps to allow for snowmaking. The only thing I can compare this to is maybe the start of 2006-2007. It was warm and I remember the skiing absolutely sucking until February 14, 2007 when we got the first of three or four big storms that coincidentally fell on major holidays (Valentine's Day, Good Friday/Easter, and even Patriot's Day IIRC).
> 
> We arrived in BOS on December 27th and I looked at the forecast and was thinking, "well, it will change." We arrived at my folks to find a very thin and saturated/frozen snowpack that has now all disappeared in a week. Burke was pretty bad honestly. They got a solid base on the Dippers and barely opened the lower mountain as well as Willoughby-Lower Bear Den before we skied, but the trails were firm and icy base with little natural snow. Carriage Road was barely skiable. Folks at the mountain told me that the snowmaking team had been doing a bang-up job, but there's not much you can do when it rains, rains, and rains.
> 
> ...


While I'm sure it was great to visit, this trip ought to make you appreciate Utah when you're back! Get ready for a wave of unplanned east coasters spilling in if it doesnt change much. I know I'm eyeing flights, and not because I desire to fly west this year...I've got my fill, but because at some point I would like to ski on some actual fucking snow before MTB season. I would just assume take my vacation close to home this year so I'm really doing a dance for it to flip


----------



## FBGM (Friday at 7:24 AM)

East coast is in rough shape up and down. Little to no snowmaking in forecast. 

I’m no Vail fan but if Mt Blow looks even remotely close to other places they might not have base to set gates or have that much hard traffic. There’s no base and everything is isothermic down to fucking dirt. Nothing supportive. Need freezing temps.


----------



## drjeff (Friday at 8:00 AM)

FBGM said:


> East coast is in rough shape up and down. Little to no snowmaking in forecast.
> 
> I’m no Vail fan but if Mt Blow looks even remotely close to other places they might not have base to set gates or have that much hard traffic. There’s no base and everything is isothermic down to fucking dirt. Nothing supportive. Need freezing temps.



Exactly! 

Saw maybe a 25/75 ratio of gate and b-net drill holes last weekend that were coming up with dirt rather than just clean snow.  And that was prior to the last 4 days of above freezing temps and melting that has continued this week.

Need a weather pattern change, and one that sticks around for more than a couple of days soon


----------



## thebigo (Friday at 8:09 AM)

Ragged is hosting a ski east high school race Saturday plus setting SL on another trail for training. I will be over later today and can confirm but have heard nothing about the b netting we set holiday week .


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Friday at 8:55 AM)

Yes @deadheadskier, I do control the weather.  No race camp for the nonbelievers...  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


----------



## thetrailboss (Friday at 9:12 AM)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yes @deadheadskier, I do control the weather.  No race camp for the nonbelievers...  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


EGAD he’s back!


----------



## Edd (Friday at 10:26 AM)

snoseek said:


> While I'm sure it was great to visit, this trip ought to make you appreciate Utah when you're back! Get ready for a wave of unplanned east coasters spilling in if it doesnt change much. I know I'm eyeing flights, and not because I desire to fly west this year...I've got my fill, but because at some point I would like to ski on some actual fucking snow before MTB season. I would just assume take my vacation close to home this year so I'm really doing a dance for it to flip


Just pulled the trigger on Utah late Jan into Feb. Might start a thread because I’m going to focus on PowMow. Never been there. I don’t have a pass for the Cottonwood areas and I’ve been to those anyway. May check out Beaver Mountain as I have an Indy.


----------



## abc (Friday at 11:02 AM)

It’s not even MLK day yet. The weather is highly likely to change. 

Oh, wrong thread. Vail isn’t going to change though.


----------



## thetrailboss (Friday at 11:14 AM)

Edd said:


> Just pulled the trigger on Utah late Jan into Feb. Might start a thread because I’m going to focus on PowMow. Never been there. I don’t have a pass for the Cottonwood areas and I’ve been to those anyway. May check out Beaver Mountain as I have an Indy.


Beaver is worth it. If there’s snow check out Pebble Creek in Idaho.


----------



## 4aprice (Friday at 11:35 AM)

snoseek said:


> While I'm sure it was great to visit, this trip ought to make you appreciate Utah when you're back! Get ready for a wave of unplanned east coasters spilling in if it doesnt change much. I know I'm eyeing flights, and not because I desire to fly west this year...I've got my fill, but because at some point I would like to ski on some actual fucking snow before MTB season. I would just assume take my vacation close to home this year so I'm really doing a dance for it to flip


I'll be looking forward to your Powderhorn reports. (someday I'll get there)  I think it may flip down the road as well, however, the snow pack out west makes it a pretty special year out there, therefore worth the trip.  I'll be heading out in March.


abc said:


> It’s not even MLK day yet. The weather is highly likely to change.
> 
> Oh, wrong thread. Vail isn’t going to change though.


Panic is setting in isn't it?


----------



## jaytrem (Friday at 11:55 AM)

thetrailboss said:


> Beaver is worth it. If there’s snow check out Pebble Creek in Idaho.


I had to learn to ski with my mouth closed at Beaver.  Deepest lightest snow I've ever seen.  Hopefully make it back this year if they're still open in early April.


----------



## snoseek (Friday at 1:46 PM)

Don't sleep on Sundance assuming the snow is filled a bit lower and cold. Beaver was sorta flat bit people to space ratio was damm good for Utah. There's stuff off the side...don't miss the traverse though


----------



## catskillman (Friday at 2:34 PM)

deadheadskier said:


> In yet another example of Vail sucking, I had been signed up for a two day Master's GS Race Camp next Wednesday and Thursday at Mt Snow.  I had been really looking forward to it.
> 
> Mt Snow just cancelled the camp saying they don't have enough snow to support it.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Even with this bad run of weather, Mt Snow hasn't made enough snow to set aside one training trail midweek for 32 participants?  Are you serious?  I bet even Gunstock could have supported it this week.
> 
> ...


They had a race camp at Hunter this week.  Race trail was in terrible shape.  They also cancelled the masters races Friday & Saturday.  Skied that run today, huge bare spots and small trees popping up thru the snow.


----------



## catskillman (Friday at 2:44 PM)

Edd said:


> Just pulled the trigger on Utah late Jan into Feb. Might start a thread because I’m going to focus on PowMow. Never been there. I don’t have a pass for the Cottonwood areas and I’ve been to those anyway. May check out Beaver Mountain as I have an Indy.











						NYCDSC Silent Auction
					

Silent auction 'NYCDSC Silent Auction' hosted online at 32auctions.




					www.32auctions.com
				




Check out this link - auction powder mountain - 2 tickets and cat rides.  $80 opening bid, ends on the 7th!  fantastic deal


----------



## RichT (Friday at 5:54 PM)

Hopefully...........








						NY State Senate Bill S326
					

Prohibits food-service and retail establishments from refusing to accept cash as payment for goods or services; calls for a civil fine if an establishment should refuse cash as payment.




					www.nysenate.gov


----------



## drjeff (Friday at 6:22 PM)

Park City side of the Park City resort obviously sucked today! My son is in the foreground and his buddy in the background! 

Then pic 2 is mother nature after she put down maybe 2" (just enough to cover up the ground) just prior to sunset at Mount Snow this afternoon... 

Really lamenting the fact I absolutely had to be in my office the last few days verses out in Utah with my son, his friend and his friend's Dad who is one of my regular Mount Snow ski friends...


----------



## deadheadskier (Friday at 7:51 PM)

drjeff said:


> Park City side of the Park City resort obviously sucked today! My son is in the foreground and his buddy in the background!
> 
> Then pic 2 is mother nature after she put down maybe 2" (just enough to cover up the ground) just prior to sunset at Mount Snow this afternoon...
> 
> Really lamenting the fact I absolutely had to be in my office the last few days verses out in Utah with my son, his friend and his friend's Dad who is one of my regular Mount Snow ski friends...View attachment 55854



Sucks being a working stiff sometimes doesn't it? Haha

Good for your son.  I'm sure you'll get days like that with him soon to make up for it


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## doublediamond (Friday at 8:39 PM)

Zoom in. That’s a lot of fast grass in that pic of Mt Snow


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## drjeff (Friday at 9:06 PM)

doublediamond said:


> Zoom in. That’s a lot of fast grass in that pic of Mt Snow


Was pretty deep on my back deck railing tonight!


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## thetrailboss (Friday at 9:25 PM)

snoseek said:


> Don't sleep on Sundance assuming the snow is filled a bit lower and cold. Beaver was sorta flat bit people to space ratio was damm good for Utah. There's stuff off the side...don't miss the traverse though


THIS would be the year to ski Sundance. Their base depths are deep.


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## thetrailboss (Friday at 9:25 PM)

Oh boy.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610036088030265344


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## drjeff (Friday at 9:54 PM)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh boy.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610036088030265344


Apparently there was another new Dopp FGQ lift out West (forgot which resort) installed this year that had the same issue and need for evac a few weeks ago.

Rumor is that for their FGQ's that Dopp may have some bad/defective bearings supplied to them


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## thetrailboss (Friday at 10:07 PM)

drjeff said:


> Apparently there was another new Dopp FGQ lift out West (forgot which resort) installed this year that had the same issue and need for evac a few weeks ago.
> 
> Rumor is that for their FGQ's that Dopp may have some bad/defective bearings supplied to them


Sundance's Quad had issues. I don't know if an evac was required, but it was closed for a few days.


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## pinion247 (Saturday at 10:35 AM)

Vail still sucks, but at least they ran all 5 lifts to start the day at Wildcat today. I may be wrong, but from memory I think that’s the first time since 2019/2020 that all lifts were ready to go to start the day. Improvement! Plus, snowmaking is ongoing and what little there is to ski is skiing great.


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## Edd (Saturday at 10:37 AM)

I’ve been told you can sit at the Wildcat bar now, which management apparently found to be unachievable for years.


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## pinion247 (Saturday at 10:44 AM)

Edd said:


> I’ve been told you can sit at the Wildcat bar now, which management apparently found to be unachievable for years.


Yes , that is back as well.

So…. Vail _doesn’t_ suck? Nah……


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## skiur (Saturday at 11:00 AM)

pinion247 said:


> Yes , that is back as well.
> 
> So…. Vail _doesn’t_ suck? Nah……



Vail sucks a little less?


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## Edd (Saturday at 11:08 AM)

They’ve set the bar at Wildcat so low, if any part of the mountain runs normally we’re like “Oh, good job, way to go slugger.”


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## deadheadskier (Saturday at 11:30 AM)

Lil ole county run Gunstock.  B netting setup and one dedicated race team trail, 1 dedicated Nastar trail for today.

How can a place with inferior snowmaking power and 1400 feet lower in elevation achieve this?

It's called effort


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## Smellytele (Saturday at 2:31 PM)

Edd said:


> I’ve been told you can sit at the Wildcat bar now, which management apparently found to be unachievable for years.


well only until the lifts closed no après-ski.


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## Smellytele (Saturday at 2:33 PM)

pinion247 said:


> Vail still sucks, but at least they ran all 5 lifts to start the day at Wildcat today. I may be wrong, but from memory I think that’s the first time since 2019/2020 that all lifts were ready to go to start the day. Improvement! Plus, snowmaking is ongoing and what little there is to ski is skiing great.


Where were they making snow? Looked like just upper pole cat when I was xcountry skiing at great glen today.


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## pinion247 (Saturday at 3:04 PM)

Smellytele said:


> Where were they making snow? Looked like just upper pole cat when I was xcountry skiing at great glen today.



That’s it, though due to the length of that stretch it’s quite a few guns. 

Snowmaking done on Wild Kitten earlier has held up well so hopefully the same happens with Upper Polecat and they can focus elsewhere in a day or two.

Relative to snowmaking efforts - sans the week the Keystone guys were out here blowing - the past 2 years, I will take this as an improvement. Especially if it’s done well.


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## thetrailboss (Saturday at 4:23 PM)

Smellytele said:


> well only until the lifts closed no après-ski.


That does not sound EPIC to me....

And isn't the whole business model that Vail uses based upon people using the ancillary services at a premium to make more revenue and compensate for the cheap Epic passes? At least the last time I visited and skied Park City, the other services (ski school, ski rentals, retail, food and bev) were all at a premium cost. So why close the bar early and lose revenue? Apparently Broomfield thinks it is losing money. Seems odd to me since I know a lot of folks here love the Wildcat Bar.


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## BenedictGomez (Monday at 1:21 AM)

Edd said:


> Just pulled the trigger on Utah late Jan into Feb. Might start a thread because I’m going to focus on PowMow. Never been there. I don’t have a pass for the Cottonwood areas and I’ve been to those anyway. May check out Beaver Mountain as I have an Indy.



Powder Mountain is kind of a weird place, but that's a part of why I enjoyed it as it's unique. It's hard to put my finger on properly explaining it, but it's just..... odd.   But it's very uncrowded & pretty large, I'll bet you'll enjoy it too.

Perhaps give Sundance a shot as well; I'm always surprised how few people have skied it, even among people who've done 3 or 6 Utah trips and have skied virtually everywhere else in the state.  It's basically a giant Plattekill, and on a nice day the views of Mount Timpanogos are amazing.  Pretty views of Deer Creek reservoir too.  Very local.  I'm a fan.  My 2¢.


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## thetrailboss (Monday at 12:11 PM)

BenedictGomez said:


> Powder Mountain is kind of a weird place, but that's a part of why I enjoyed it as it's unique. It's hard to put my finger on properly explaining it, but it's just..... odd.   But it's very uncrowded & pretty large, I'll bet you'll enjoy it too.
> 
> Perhaps give Sundance a shot as well; I'm always surprised how few people have skied it, even among people who've done 3 or 6 Utah trips and have skied virtually everywhere else in the state.  It's basically a giant Plattekill, and on a nice day the views of Mount Timpanogos are amazing.  Pretty views of Deer Creek reservoir too.  Very local.  I'm a fan.  My 2¢.


FWIW on my flight back to SLC on Saturday I shared a row with a very opinionated and die hard skier. He's hit all the places in Utah. When he mentioned Pow Mow he said, "it's flat and weird." I have to agree.


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## ThatGuy (Monday at 1:53 PM)

From the map it looks expansive acreage wise but vert and steep leave alot to be desired. Also the lift layout looks odd and unintuitive but that could just be the map.


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## thetrailboss (Monday at 1:54 PM)

ThatGuy said:


> From the map it looks expansive acreage wise but vert and steep leave alot to be desired. Also the lift layout looks odd and unintuitive but that could just be the map.


....and in a bad season the terrain is limited because there is no snowmaking.


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## eatskisleep (Monday at 2:11 PM)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW on my flight back to SLC on Saturday I shared a row with a very opinionated and die hard skier. He's hit all the places in Utah. When he mentioned Pow Mow he said, "it's flat and weird." I have to agree.


Interesting. Never been but it’s on my list. Would love to hear more though


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## thetrailboss (Monday at 2:17 PM)

eatskisleep said:


> Interesting. Never been but it’s on my list. Would love to hear more though


Go before it changes anymore. The owners are complete douchebags. 









						Welcome to Powder Mountain – a utopian club for the millennial elite
					

When these young entrepreneurs bought a remote ski resort in Utah, they dreamed of an exclusive, socially conscious community. Is this the future, or Mt Olympus for Generation Me?




					www.theguardian.com


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## sugarbushskier (Monday at 2:17 PM)

Agree that PowMow is a bit unique, but we skied untracked almost all day off the Paradise chair and had one of my best days in Utah. I was disappointed in Powder Country though as snow was sticky due to the trail's aspect.  

The snowcat experience is also fun, but wish the runs were a bit longer.


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## KustyTheKlown (Monday at 3:04 PM)

i have skied two days ever at powmow

the first day was bad. we were in utah for a big but warm snow cycle. powmow is relatively low elevation, and the storm hit them as fr.rain. first day was among the worst western ski days I've had. then it snowed 10" overnight and kept snowing and we had a banging second day. i will agree that it is 'weird and flat' but if you are just trying to cruise mellow glades and open powder fields, its worth a visit. i am going this year to get the value out of my indy pass for 2 days during a 14 day trip that will also have me at alta, bird, snowbasin, and jackson, so i don't mind dialing it down for a couple of days at powmow (and also at sun valley). basically I'll have 5 'mellow' days and 9 'hardcore' days. works for me.

they have a cat skiing operation i did not get to try out my first visit, and there are absolutely sections of the mountains I've not skied. its massive. it has the most acreage of any ski area in the USA i think.

the way real estate is scattered throughout the ski terrain is weird and unique. i know other places have big slopeside homes and stuff, but this is different. hard to describe. there's one group of homes that is very sparse and scandinavian in its design.


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## snoseek (Tuesday at 11:05 AM)

Attitash is skiing pretty good right now. I've somehow found myself skiing here quite a bit this year either as a wildcat attitash combo or just quick trips from home. It's nit been a disaster on my days and now that all the cool kids moved on its fucking empty on the midweek. Wildcat as well.

Terrain expansion has been slow but that seems like the case for everywhere. They've done a good job resurfacing and grooming. I wish they would not sit on the piles they blow so long. Overall operations aren't where they need to be but are leaps and bounds ahead of the past 2 years. I realize the bar is set pretty low but let's not pretend that these resorts thrived under the peak Era. Lots of fucked leftovers from that. Stuff is slowly being addressed and I would like to see big snowmaking upgrades for years like this.

I may even buy a beer at the bar today.


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## thetrailboss (Tuesday at 11:33 AM)

snoseek said:


> I may even buy a beer at the bar today.


But will the bar be open for you?


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## snoseek (Tuesday at 12:30 PM)

thetrailboss said:


> But will the bar be open for you?


It was. I'm skiing it off. 2 triple laps and I'm OK to drive!


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## 2Planker (Tuesday at 12:47 PM)

snoseek said:


> I may even buy a beer at the bar today.


Not with CA$H you won't.....

Shhh - Parking dude took a CA$H tip today. Let me squeeze in next to the loading dock


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## ThatGuy (Tuesday at 1:22 PM)

2Planker said:


> Not with CA$H you won't.....
> 
> Shhh - Parking dude took a CA$H tip today. Let me squeeze in next to the loading dock


Would you happen to know his name….to congratulate him of course


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## 2Planker (Tuesday at 2:09 PM)

ThatGuy said:


> Would you happen to know his name….to congratulate him of course
> View attachment 55910


Rob K.


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## 1dog (Tuesday at 7:12 PM)

sugarbushskier said:


> Agree that PowMow is a bit unique, but we skied untracked almost all day off the Paradise chair and had one of my best days in Utah. I was disappointed in Powder Country though as snow was sticky due to the trail's aspect.
> 
> The snowcat experience is also fun, but wish the runs were a bit longer.


Not a lot of steeps and some long run outs, but it does have a certain appeal. Just starting at almost mid-mt, parking lot -won't make it without chains or AWD if its snowing. . . .  this was day two - 24" of a 70" week. Apparently becoming discovered - like everything else.


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## eatskisleep (Today at 1:34 PM)

Any idea what trails they are using the winch cat on at The Cat?


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## pinion247 (Today at 2:54 PM)

eatskisleep said:


> Any idea what trails they are using the winch cat on at The Cat?


I was wondering the same. Maybe certain parts of Lynx due to the snowmaking whales?


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