# Utah:  How bad can it be?



## volvovod (Feb 5, 2018)

I need suggestions for Utah: We are leaving tomorrow, will be skiing for three days.The trip has been planned long ago and the tickets are not refundable. It lookslike Utah is having one of its driest winters ever, or at least, that is whatInternet suggests. Am I crazy thinking of driving north to Montana, WY orIdaho? It's an option as we have an AWD Audi reserved. Or should I just relax,stay in Salt Lake City and hit Alta and Snowbird?

Thanks...


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## andrec10 (Feb 5, 2018)

I know someone that just got back from Park City and said it was not bad at all.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 5, 2018)

don't know how it is now, but in December i chose to skip my Utah plans and drive to big sky and it was a great decision.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2018)

Xwhaler was there just last week skiing Alta and Snowbird.  Skiing looked great to me.


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## xwhaler (Feb 5, 2018)

Just got back from 4 days skiing last week. Stayed at the Cliff Lodge at Snowbird and did 2 days at Alta, 2 at Bird.
Skiing was pretty good all 4 days...base depths are deeper than anything on the East Coast right now.

Here are some pics to give you a sense. The demise of Utah is definitely overblown. Looks like a little snow coming as well to refresh things.

https://opensnow.com/dailysnow/utah


https://***************************/topic/903-snowbird-monday-129/

https://***************************/topic/901-alta-sunday-128/

https://***************************/topic/908-alta-wednesday-131/


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## Killingtime (Feb 5, 2018)

Based on the Park City and Deer Valley webcams it looks like they are in decent shape. Was out there a few years ago also in a "dry" year and still had a blast even though it was mostly packed powder runs with some of the bowl areas having the deeper snow. . . A buddy just got back from Big Sky and said it was powder on top of powder everywhere they went. 

I'm heading to Steamboat next week and have the same fears that you do right now.


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## kingslug (Feb 5, 2018)

Go to Alta/Snowbird..ski stuff that is better than here..be happy.


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## volvovod (Feb 5, 2018)

xwhaler said:


> Just got back from 4 days skiing last week. Stayed at the Cliff Lodge at Snowbird and did 2 days at Alta, 2 at Bird.
> Skiing was pretty good all 4 days...base depths are deeper than anything on the East Coast right now.
> 
> Here are some pics to give you a sense. The demise of Utah is definitely overblown. Looks like a little snow coming as well to refresh things.
> ...



Does not look too bad indeed!  Thank you for the links.  I'd rather spend time skiing, not driving.


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## andrec10 (Feb 5, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Go to Alta/Snowbird..ski stuff that is better than here..be happy.



I will be there 4 weeks from today.


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## volvovod (Feb 5, 2018)

kingslug said:


> Go to Alta/Snowbird..ski stuff that is better than here..be happy.



Thank you, I will.  By the way, is there a way to get *real* discount on Utah lift tickets?  Like you get in Norheast?


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## Jcb890 (Feb 5, 2018)

volvovod said:


> Thank you, I will.  By the way, is there a way to get *real* discount on Utah lift tickets?  Like you get in Norheast?


The only real discounts we get are season passes and random 2-for-1s.


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## kingslug (Feb 5, 2018)

I think some ski shops there may have some. Liftopia 10 to 20% discounts


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## boston_e (Feb 5, 2018)

Heading to Utah over presidents... glad to hear it isn’t as bad as reports have been saying.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 5, 2018)

kingslug said:


> I think some ski shops there may have some. Liftopia 10 to 20% discounts


Nobody here considers 10-20% off a "*real*" discount though.


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## andrec10 (Feb 5, 2018)

xwhaler said:


> Just got back from 4 days skiing last week. Stayed at the Cliff Lodge at Snowbird and did 2 days at Alta, 2 at Bird.
> Skiing was pretty good all 4 days...base depths are deeper than anything on the East Coast right now.
> 
> Here are some pics to give you a sense. The demise of Utah is definitely overblown. Looks like a little snow coming as well to refresh things.
> ...


Based on pics, looks good to me!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2018)

volvovod said:


> I need suggestions for Utah: We are leaving tomorrow, will be skiing for three days.The trip has been planned long ago and the tickets are not refundable. It lookslike Utah is having one of its driest winters ever, or at least, that is whatInternet suggests. Am I crazy thinking of driving north to Montana, WY orIdaho? It's an option as we have an AWD Audi reserved. Or should I just relax,stay in Salt Lake City and hit Alta and Snowbird?
> 
> Thanks...



Depends on what you are looking for.  We are forecast to get some snow today and tomorrow.  It will make things better.  If you are looking for deep powder, then yes, go north.  If you are looking for trying some new areas and enjoying what it is, come on down.

Feel free to PM for more info.  Where do you have tickets to?


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## boston_e (Feb 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Depends on what you are looking for.  We are forecast to get some snow today and tomorrow.  It will make things better.  If you are looking for deep powder, then yes, go north.  If you are looking for trying some new areas and enjoying what it is, come on down.
> 
> Feel free to PM for more info.  Where do you have tickets to?



While I didn't start the thread I'd be interested in hearing what it is like.

We are staying in Park City but have the max pass and will do a few days for sure at Brighton and Solitude, but considering doing a day or two at PCMR or Snowbird / Alta as well.


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## jimk (Feb 5, 2018)

just finished 10 days skiing in UT.  Alta is skiing better than all the rest.  Had a great day there today on about 3" new.
pics from Park city:  https://***************************/topic/905-park-city-13018/


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## skiNEwhere (Feb 6, 2018)

It's the worst snow season thusfar in 40 years. Some Colorado ski areas are doing better than we are. Just for a little perspective.

YTD Snowfall/ base depth) 

Loveland - 175 (50)
Snowbird - 163 (61) 
Winter Park - 150 (57)
Alta - 145 (60)
Steamboat - 141 (40)
Park City - 97 (42 summit/32 base)

I think it's important to set expectations. You're probably not going to have a stereotypical Utah experience, but at Alta and Snowbird, enough snow has fallen to cover most of the rocks, but there are still plenty out there. The snow is chalky and firm, which still makes for some fun skiing.

Park City is chalky and firm as well, but with a lot less coverage. There is very little off piste terrain open. They've had to shutdown a couple groomers due to aspect and temps  causing the run to go down to bare dirt in a couple spots. The  higher elevation terrain such as that off of 9990 has held in there much better.

Personally I would stick to Alta and Snowbird if you come out. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions as I've been skiing all 3 places


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## redwinger (Feb 6, 2018)

I had to laugh when locals were saying that this was the worst winter in 13 years.  I skied 4 days, Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Brighton.  Skiing was fantastic, hit a 10" powder day at Solitude.  They just opened Devils Castle at Alta.  I don't know what you're hoping to ski if you can't find it and have fun on it at Alta right now.


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## Jully (Feb 6, 2018)

redwinger said:


> I had to laugh when locals were saying that this was the worst winter in 13 years.  I skied 4 days, Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Brighton.  Skiing was fantastic, hit a 10" powder day at Solitude.  They just opened Devils Castle at Alta.  I don't know what you're hoping to ski if you can't find it and have fun on it at Alta right now.



It is one of the worst winters ever out west right now, that is indisputable. Conditions are marginal in any sort of chute and bushes are coming through some trails. However, it was very skiable. We ski similar coverage back east in glades all the time (I was there from the 20th to the 26th).

The snow is still incredible compared to the east and when it snows, it is still glorious powder. I agree with you that any skier coming out west from skiing the east will be blown away with how great the snow is. The snow and coverage are both vastly superior to what we have in the east right now (you can ski at least some trees at all the utah areas). This coming storm in NE MIGHT make it a little more comparable, but our snowpack will disappear in a week.


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## DoublePlanker (Feb 6, 2018)

I seem to remember skiing Alta and Snowbird once in January long time ago with < 100 inches base and it was quite different than the other times.  Lots of rocks to navigate.  when > 100 inches, simply amazing.  If expectations are low wrt powder, chutes, etc, then probably fine now.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 6, 2018)

skiNEwhere said:


> Personally I would stick to Alta and Snowbird if you come out



If it's as bad as folks are saying, and I was going out there on vacation, I'd probably only ski those 2 places since they get considerably more snow than PC, DV, Canyons.    I get email alerts for airfare deals for places out west, and I've noticed unusually cheap deals into SLC, I guess this is why.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2018)

boston_e said:


> While I didn't start the thread I'd be interested in hearing what it is like.
> 
> We are staying in Park City but have the max pass and will do a few days for sure at Brighton and Solitude, but considering doing a day or two at PCMR or Snowbird / Alta as well.



I was just at Deer Valley today.  The main runs are groomed snowmaking.  As in icy base with loose gran on top.  If you like skiing cruisers you'll be fine.  I did not venture off the snowmaking and groomed runs because there was either no snow at all or very little.  

Again, it all depends on your expectations.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2018)

redwinger said:


> I had to laugh when locals were saying that this was the worst winter in 13 years.  I skied 4 days, Brighton, Solitude, Alta, Brighton.  Skiing was fantastic, hit a 10" powder day at Solitude.  They just opened Devils Castle at Alta.  I don't know what you're hoping to ski if you can't find it and have fun on it at Alta right now.



Actually, it is the worst winter since 1976-1977.  And the fact that it snowed 10" now about ten days ago means nothing.  The sun, wind, traffic, and warm temps have beaten that to all hell.  The reason why people are saying it is bad is because of the low amount of snow.  The amount, and frequency of snow storms, really plays a big role in determining what opens out here and how good it skis.  

Compared to east, yes, of course it is better.  But compared year over year out here--this is a real doozie.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2018)

Sucks out west. Folks should just stay home and ski Wachusett amirite?!?!





Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Feb 8, 2018)

I know for the Utah locals it's a very subpar season by their standards, but I just returned to the East from a ten day visit to the Wasatch and had a ball:  https://www.pugski.com/threads/utah-not-bad-jan-27-to-feb-5-2018.8538/
photo from Alta 2/5/18:


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## boston_e (Feb 8, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Sucks out west. Folks should just stay home and ski Wachusett amirite?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



maybe Vermont not Wachusett?  We’ve had 37” in the past week.

i have a sinking feeling that I’m leaving better skiing for worse skiing.  Ugh.


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## kingslug (Feb 8, 2018)

It will still be good. Just hit Alta/Bird. then you will have 4000 acres to find...stuff.


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## Edd (Feb 8, 2018)

boston_e said:


> maybe Vermont not Wachusett?  We’ve had 37” in the past week.
> 
> i have a sinking feeling that I’m leaving better skiing for worse skiing.  Ugh.



I was skiing trees at Brighton a month ago and they’re in better shape now. I bet you’ll find some great skiing.


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## snoseek (Feb 8, 2018)

Right now the skiing is fine Im sure. Getting into march if the big storms don't come its gonna be a SHORT spring for many places Utah included.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2018)

snoseek said:


> Right now the skiing is fine Im sure. Getting into march if the big storms don't come its gonna be a SHORT spring for many places Utah included.



Someone with knowledge told me that Snowbird is thinking May 1st closing. We will be lucky to make that at this rate.


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## asnowmobiler (Feb 8, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Someone with knowledge told me that Snowbird is thinking May 1st closing. We will be lucky to make that at this rate.



I sure hope not!!
I'm going the 3rd through the 10th:-?


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 8, 2018)

I have friends at SB today and it looks pretty good to me.


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## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

*Utah: How bad could it be?*

From the title I got a different notion of what this thread was about.

I just got back last week from my first visit to Utah. 

How bad could it be? 


Lulled into joining a liberal ski event I wanted to support in a infamously red state, but that was a bust where it turned out to have no one actually skiing in it, so skied alone. Felt like I got bait and switch’ed and gave my money to a place I wouldn’t have otherwise supported. Fool me once…
You only find watered-down half-strength ‘kinder-bier’ for après ski - really?
Never could tell if you’re better off with bottled beer vs draft beer - since got half strength watered-down beer from both? Locals swore by one or the other - but the 'rule' never held. Always ended up with weak tasteless bad beer. 

Martinis served in kid’s-sized glasses, as if taken from a doll house? Where are the REAL adult-sized martini glasses? Is this on Candid Camera?? Yet they charge same price as if it was a normal sized adult martini?
Cuisine as expensive as Aspen but nowhere near the quality of Aspen (charging Aspen prices for mediocre cowboy cuisine)
Not as friendly as other western ski areas, so didn’t hook up with other skiers on the chairs or in the bars - again, skied alone, which is first time this ever happened in skiing many places out west
Accosted by no less than 5 Mitt Romney supporters outside SLC convention center on my way to the airport to sign their “get him on ballot” petition. “Since you asked me - Let me tell you about him from my experience of him as Governor of Mass” - “Don’t bother, he’s a Mormon, and that’s enough to get my vote”.
Mediocre man-made machine-groomed snow, yet western “no way there’s any good skiing back east” attitude to which you had to say:  “You know - right now Vermont has better snow than you here right now” - to their horrified stunned faces. Did I even mention skiing over rocks and roots on your double-blacks here?
Spent the week just traversing around the ravines, it seemed 85% of the time you were skate-skiing across flat cat-tracks trying to get around to various lifts, or worse "trails as snow sidewalks" through endless number of other people's trophy homes, to get from Park City to the sole ONE mountain lunch spot that actually had a bar which was in Canyons, etc.
If you skied one good section for 5 minutes, it was short and short lived, and always led to the end in the bottom of yet another endless ravine, flat skiing for another 15 minutes, green trails back to the everyone is funneled, way-too-crowded lift (Tombstone lift was aptly named)
Bad food, bad beer, bad martinins, bad snow, and filled with Mitt Romney supporting morons (said morons, not mormons)


Yeah - that kind of bad  Life is too short to ski Utah.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

This guys seems pleasant.


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## chuckstah (Mar 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> This guys seems pleasant.


He did it all wrong. 

Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jcb890 (Mar 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> This guys seems pleasant.


Honestly, I thought it was fantastic.

I knew about the beer, so one could assume mixed drinks/hard alcohol is probably under strange circumstances as well.

Cuisine is interesting and helpful as we all enjoy cuisine.  I find cuisine to be very subjective though, many people might find SLC to have great food for instance.

The friendliness is quite interesting.  I always notice that being from New England... almost everywhere you visit, the people are much nicer than back home.

The attitude I find tough to blame them on though.  How many days in a season can you honestly say the skiing/riding is better in VT than UT?  You can probably fit that number on 2 hands, maybe 1 for a "normal" UT season.

The Mitt Romney and Mormon stuff was pretty amusing as well.

I'll have to ask my friend who is in UT if he agrees about the traversing and ravines.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

chuckstah said:


> He did it all wrong.



That too.


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## gregnye (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> From the title I got a different notion of what this thread was about.
> 
> I just got back last week from my first visit to Utah.
> 
> ...




I agree with most of this. Utah is overrated. Colorado is still much better. The only places in Utah worth going to are Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin. 
Sure, Utah might get more snow, but Salt Lake City sucks, it's literally just Mcdonalds, Burger King, and Wendy's repeated every 5 blocks. 
There are also more chain regulations for cars making it harder to drive to the ski areas. 
Flights from the east coast to Salt Lake are more expensive and often require a transfer at Denver anyway, so you might as well just get out and ski Colorado.

There's a reason Colorado has been doing very well economically the past few years. Utah will continue to be lightyears behind unless they change basically everything. And that's not even starting to talk about Utah's politics...


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## sankaty (Mar 5, 2018)

I'm very hesitant to draw broad conclusions from anybody's anecdotal experiences (especially my own), but of the dozen or so folks from Utah that I've spent a fair amount of time with, literally all of them have been very friendly and kind.  I've found in my limited interactions with young LDS folks that they have much more varied views on social issues than I would have expected based on my preconceptions.

I also found that the skiing did not suck, and that outweighs cuisine/libation concerns by a fair amount in my case.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> From the title I got a different notion of what this thread was about.
> 
> I just got back last week from my first visit to Utah.
> 
> ...



One less person for me to worry about!


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## Jully (Mar 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I agree with most of this. Utah is overrated. Colorado is still much better. The only places in Utah worth going to are Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin.
> Sure, Utah might get more snow, but Salt Lake City sucks, it's literally just Mcdonalds, Burger King, and Wendy's repeated every 5 blocks.
> There are also more chain regulations for cars making it harder to drive to the ski areas.
> Flights from the east coast to Salt Lake are more expensive and often require a transfer at Denver anyway, so you might as well just get out and ski Colorado.
> ...



Really confused at the Utah hate. I think both are fairly equivalent, though different from one another I agree. I like Utah because there are fewer crowds, more snow, and honestly I really don't think the mountains are way worse at all - I'd say they're different but equivalent. Snowbird and Alta are incredible and I like both better than the major CO mountains actually. Solitude and Brighton are on the small side but have some incredible terrain and fast lifts. Plenty for a week IMO. Park City has big crowds but is so mammoth that you can escape and you can't get bored there. The only thing PC lacks is Mary Jane level bumps (but honestly everywhere lacks MJ level bumps).

Jet Blue flies direct to SLC which is a smaller airport and easier to navigate (flight was cheaper than my flight to Denver too actually, $230 versus $205). I've been to Utah 4 times now and haven't once stayed in SLC so I can't talk to that at all, but the ski bus from SLC I'd think eliminates a lot of car issues.

I don't consider myself a Utah homer in any sense, but really surprised at how much some folks dislike it. I'm genuinely confused, especially at the mountains being worse. What about them makes them worse?


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## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I agree with most of this. Utah is overrated. Colorado is still much better. The only places in Utah worth going to are Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin.
> Sure, Utah might get more snow, but Salt Lake City sucks, it's literally just Mcdonalds, Burger King, and Wendy's repeated every 5 blocks.
> There are also more chain regulations for cars making it harder to drive to the ski areas.
> Flights from the east coast to Salt Lake are more expensive and often require a transfer at Denver anyway, so you might as well just get out and ski Colorado.
> ...



Agreed. I forgot to mention the much cheaper flights to Denver as well, good point, even forgetting that for me the ONE direct Delta flight back from SLC to Boston had to be a midnight red eye flight (which sucked). Delta was no picnic either. And the SLC Delta staff - who some might call Mormon (fake) 'nice'? -  GLEEFULLY charged me extra for my same ski bag and ski boots than Delta Boston did on the way there. Their SLC response: "Oh, Boston is famous with us in SLC for wrongly giving the skiing customers too much latitude for their ski equipment." Really??

From its pre-trip reputation, Utah was supposed to have the best snow. Utah was supposed to be so dirt cheap it's the favorite of spring break college students with cheap flights to match. Park City was supposed to have haute cuisine by way of the Sundance crowd (expected higher prices but worthy-of-it cuisine). I found none of these prior Utah expectations to hold true. 

Pre-trip, I thought the alcohol situation might be a little verrückt crazy in Utah, but it was much worse than expected. I mean, "it's just a beer", can't you folks just leave that simple beer alone? I mean, we're not talking hard-core whiskey here. All I wanted was one proper beer or one proper drink that visit - none to be found. You felt nickeled and dimed for every ounce. Which was bizarrely measured - mechanically - at every bar by some kind of state-required vacuum pump device. With every bar shelve in front of you locked with shockingly thick bank-vault steel bars as if it were solid gold apt to be stolen at just any moment. Guys - it's a $16 bottle of vodka back home. Treated like gold? Really??

Oh - and I didn't even mention the 'joy' (aka I was truly aghast) of watching the winter Olympics at a Park City restaurant 'bar' with all the Utah locals to the right and left of me making non-stop 'Utah' commentary when Johnny Weir came onto screen. Some crowd. Archie Bunker would be right at home. Suddenly their fear and hatred of the outside world - things like beer - fell into place for me. It might as well have been 1810 again. My money went here to support these people?!?  

No matter how you cut it - just the skiing - just the people - just the food - just the drink - just the snow - just the flights - Utah did not "have it." 

Give me Aspen Highlands or Telluride or even Beaver Creek any day. Better skiing, better food, better flights, better friendly people, better mountains, better trails, less traverses, less uptight around wine with dinner, and real drinks for when the few times you'd want one, you can have one. Utah was enough to drive one to drink!  Even here it makes one sound like an alcoholic, when one just simply wanted ONE but PROPER post-skiing beer. 

None of it... no. "Not to be had in Utah."


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I agree with most of this. Utah is overrated. Colorado is still much better. The only places in Utah worth going to are Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin.
> Sure, Utah might get more snow, but Salt Lake City sucks, it's literally just Mcdonalds, Burger King, and Wendy's repeated every 5 blocks.
> There are also more chain regulations for cars making it harder to drive to the ski areas.
> Flights from the east coast to Salt Lake are more expensive and often require a transfer at Denver anyway, so you might as well just get out and ski Colorado.
> ...



To each their own.

SLC does have a lot of bad development, but it also has some nice indy restaurants and establishments that are not that hard to find.  

If you fly United or Frontier than yes, you will connect in Denver.  But not Delta or Southwest.  

Honestly, in a general sense, BOTH Colorado and UT are doing very well economically.  SLC metro is one of the fastest growing areas in the country.  I do agree that UT "politically" has made some very dumb decisions lately.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

Jully said:


> Really confused at the Utah hate.....I don't consider myself a Utah homer in any sense, but really surprised at how much some folks dislike it. I'm genuinely confused, especially at the mountains being worse. What about them makes them worse?



Well, about 70% of his "skiing post" touched on politics, so I think there's your answer.



gregnye said:


> *I agree with most of this. Utah is overrated. Colorado is still much better. The only places in Utah worth going to are Alta, Snowbird and Snowbasin. *



I assume you've never been to Power Mountain.  I thought Solitude was really nice too.   I liked Park City/Canyons for its' enormity.  Even Deer Valley was pretty great, though I liked it least of the 7 Utah areas I've skied.



gregnye said:


> *
> There's a reason Colorado has been doing very well economically the past few years. Utah will continue to be lightyears behind unless they change basically everything.* And that's not even starting to talk about Utah's politics...



Not really sure what you mean by this, the economies of both Colorado and Utah are doing quite well.


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 5, 2018)

You can get “real beer” at the state run stores, very strange indeed but livable if you’re staying in a house and have a place to enjoy it.
The food is very hit or miss,it helps to know people that have been there many times.
Some of the runouts can be a bitch if you’re not familiar enough to know when to carry speed to traverse to the lift or other areas.


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## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

Jully said:


> I don't consider myself a Utah homer in any sense, but really surprised at how much some folks dislike it. I'm genuinely confused, especially at the mountains being worse. What about them makes them worse?



I thought it was clear in my post: too many flat cat-track traverses, ending in a long boring green cat-track ravines at the end of every run, spending all morning going across 7+ lifts across 7 ravines just to get the sole lunch spot in time for your lunch reservation (the fact you even need a reservation), skiing through the sidewalks of other people's trophy Canyons houses ad nauseam proffered as 'premiere Utah skiing trails', etc, etc.

No matter where you went, you ended up in yet another long boring ravine traverse. And surprise, surprise, here we are yet again back to crazy-packed Tombstone lift yet-an-f'in-again. Just trying to get to Quicksilver gondie to go across more f'in red-rock ravines.

But to each their own. It did sound as if the majority there on the lifts with me were happiest on the green and shallow blue trails, so perhaps most visitors wouldn't even notice these traverses or 'skiing' those sidewalks between the houses??

And someone here just said, more Utah for them. Congrats. You can have it. You won't catch me there again. Been fooled once, partly due to folks here extolling to virtues of Utah in last year's season pass discussions. I knew better, but gave it a chance anyway. No fault of anyone here, I took my own chance. People value different aspects of different places.

Happily there are many other places in the world with excellent skiing and ski cuisine and ski culture, for the aspects I happen to value and want my dollars to keep alive and support. Utah is not it.


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## sankaty (Mar 5, 2018)

You seem to be drawing very broad conclusions about Utah skiing based on just Park City and Canyons (as far as I can tell), which are my least favorite Utah mountains.  The Cottonwood Canyon resorts offer a very different experience.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

sankaty said:


> *You seem to be drawing very broad conclusions about Utah skiing* based on just Park City and Canyons (as far as I can tell), which are my least favorite Utah mountains.



And Utah in general.   
And Mormons in general. 
And the state of Utah in general.  
And Salt Lake City in general.  
And all its' bars and restaurants in general.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2018)

Ive been going to Utah for 20 years straight, at least twice a year. Alta, snowbird, solitude. Ive skied all over this country, canada and Europe...Utah is still tops with me. Park city not so much, it has nothing in common with little and Big cottonwood canyons. But you really need to ski these places a lot, hook up with locals,etc to really see what they have to offer. The map readers as they are called dont get to the good stuff simply because they do not know how or where..which is not their fault at all, just lack of knowledge of the place. 
As far as beer..bottled beer can be any proof, tap is swill. I dont care about the food so no comment on that. My best skiing has almost all been done there. And where else can you land and be on the mt in 1 hour flat..


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## sankaty (Mar 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> And Utah in general.
> And Mormons in general.
> And the state of Utah in general.
> And Salt Lake City in general.
> And all its' bars and restaurants in general.



Excellent points.


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## Abominable (Mar 5, 2018)

At the risk of drawing broad conclusions, somehow the words “teleskier“ and “lunch reservation” don’t really jive for me. 

 What I love about Salt Lake City is the variety. And the public transportation. I don’t know of anywhere else or you can really access so many mountains so easily. And without a car!

 Maybe Summit County is somewhat similar in terms of options but  most of the Colorado resorts I’ve been to are “destination resorts,”

 This is a very strange post. Where did you ski? Also say I did not have any problems long run outs or cat tracks, certainly nothing out of the ordinary when you’re getting around the resort that spans multiple draws.


----------



## Scruffy (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> From the title I got a different notion of what this thread was about.
> 
> I just got back last week from my first visit to Utah.
> 
> ...



:lol: This is a serious post?  yeah right! If half of this actually happened to you... oh never mind, not worth my time.


----------



## Abominable (Mar 5, 2018)

Abominable said:


> At the risk of drawing broad conclusions, somehow the words “teleskier“ and “lunch reservation” don’t really jive for me.
> 
> What I love about Salt Lake City is the variety. And the public transportation. I don’t know of anywhere else or you can really access so many mountains so easily. And without a car!
> 
> ...




Tahoe, forgot about Tahoe for easy access to several areas. 

And now I see you went to park city. Never been, due to its reputation as being pretty nothing special


----------



## Jully (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> I thought it was clear in my post: too many flat cat-track traverses, ending in a long boring green cat-track ravines at the end of every run, spending all morning going across 7+ lifts across 7 ravines just to get the sole lunch spot in time for your lunch reservation (the fact you even need a reservation), skiing through the sidewalks of other people's trophy Canyons houses ad nauseam proffered as 'premiere Utah skiing trails', etc, etc.
> 
> No matter where you went, you ended up in yet another long boring ravine traverse. And surprise, surprise, here we are yet again back to crazy-packed Tombstone lift yet-an-f'in-again. Just trying to get to Quicksilver gondie to go across more f'in red-rock ravines.
> 
> ...



That's Park City, absolutely not for everyone. Canyons especially is filled with traverses. Not my favorite for sure. That said I find the Winter Park traverses way more infuriating. However regardless, beyond Park City/Canyons none of the other Utah areas ski that way. Many with 2000-2500+ continuous vertical, as much or more than any CO area. What about the other mountains made them worse than the CO ones? Or were you only at PC?


----------



## TheArchitect (Mar 5, 2018)

Edited due to stupidity


----------



## gregnye (Mar 5, 2018)

Abominable said:


> What I love about Salt Lake City is the variety. And the public transportation. I don’t know of anywhere else or you can really access so many mountains so easily. And without a car!



It's amazing that the public transportation is considered "good" in America just by existing. And this is coming from someone who works at a transit agency, who has driven a 40 foot and 60 foot city transit bus through city streets.

I found Utah's ski busses to be too small, overcrowded and infrequent. It is amazing that there is a bus: yes! However for a skiing destination as close as it is to a major city, there should be a train or a more frequent/ faster connection. Just look at the Alps or Europe for inspiration.

While Utah continues to run their ancient busses, Denver has already installed a train all the way to the airport (which by the way is really far from the city center). Nice try Utah, but you still are second best


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> I thought it was clear in my post: too many flat cat-track traverses, ending in a long boring green cat-track ravines at the end of every run, spending all morning going across 7+ lifts across 7 ravines just to get the sole lunch spot in time for your lunch reservation (the fact you even need a reservation), skiing through the sidewalks of other people's trophy Canyons houses ad nauseam proffered as 'premiere Utah skiing trails', etc, etc.
> 
> No matter where you went, you ended up in yet another long boring ravine traverse. And surprise, surprise, here we are yet again back to crazy-packed Tombstone lift yet-an-f'in-again. Just trying to get to Quicksilver gondie to go across more f'in red-rock ravines.
> 
> ...



Your problem is that you didn’t know HOW to ski PCMR. A little studying of the trail map and you can plan your day and avoid traversing all day. Admittedly it is very easy to fall into the trap of traversing the area instead of skiing.

You also could have asked here for advice before you went.  As you said, a lot of folks ski here and post on AZ.

There’s much more to Utah than PCMR.  A hell of a lot more.




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## boston_e (Mar 5, 2018)

> Give me Aspen Highlands or Telluride or even Beaver Creek any day. Better skiing, better food, better flights, better friendly people, better mountains, better trails, less traverses, less uptight around wine with dinner, and real drinks for when the few times you'd want one, you can have one. Utah was enough to drive one to drink!  Even here it makes one sound like an alcoholic, when one just simply wanted ONE but PROPER post-skiing beer.
> 
> None of it... no. "Not to be had in Utah."



I knew not to take this post seriously when you said that telluride has better flights than Salt Lake City.

Personally, I’ve had much better experiences on average in Utah than Colorado or Tahoe.

Hard to compare beer at any of these places to what we have here in New England.  Vermont blows them all away so anything is a step down.


----------



## Teleskier (Mar 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> It's amazing that the public transportation is considered "good" in America just by existing. And this is coming from someone who works at a transit agency, who has driven a 40 foot and 60 foot city transit bus through city streets.
> 
> I found Utah's ski busses to be too small, overcrowded and infrequent. It is amazing that there is a bus: yes! However for a skiing destination as close as it is to a major city, there should be a train or a more frequent/ faster connection. Just look at the Alps or Europe for inspiration.
> 
> While Utah continues to run their ancient busses, Denver has already installed a train all the way to the airport (which by the way is really far from the city center). Nice try Utah, but you still are second best



OMG!! I was going to say something about the poor Park City busses, and share some of my woeful experiences of it, but feared people would think it was just piling on.

I was dependent on it for a whole week. In Europe and many other places, this would be fine and no problem. 

Here - bus drivers didn't even know their own routes!! The stops are not displayed on the LED signs (I mean, c'mon you have an LED sign right there, why not use it?) nor did the bus verbally announce the stops, so as a newcomer in the mostly pitch-black environment of night which is 90% of the trip, you had no idea where you were, what stop this was, how many stops away yours might be to pull the "stop request" cord, or even a confirmation of what direction your bus was heading in. 

Busses wouldn't come forever, then suddenly 3 buses show up all ganged together. 

The bus from Canyons makes stops at Park City hotels, great, but suddenly at "3pm or something" (and no one and no driver could tell you exactly where or how or when this happens) suddenly the bus coming from the Canyons ski area switches routes to become an express that skips all the hotel stops. PERFECT! When it's primary goal - you'd think - would be to handle the skier rush coming off the mountain at 4pm last chair. Again, no bus driver could explain how that worked, or where the tourist should go now, to get back to their major hotel. 

I once spent TWO HOURS trying to get back from skiing, on a crowded bus in sweaty ski clothes, due to all the various incompetences of their transit system. Including something that happened shockingly frequently in my short stay - the bus would suddenly veer off course unannounced - to unknown parts of the city - to drive by the HOUSE of the next bus driver - to pick him/her up as they changed shifts. FROM THEIR HOUSE! This happened all the time. What is this - a school bus route?? 

Trapped. Dependent. Unreliable. Never again. But hey - when you don't have a good apres ski scene with real beer - spending your post-ski hours on sweaty over-crowded bus is the "oh-well-might-as-well", alcohol-free way to experience the Utah apres-ski scene. Not my best daily apres ski experiences. 

Let me just say - the MooserWirt this was NOT!! 

Seriously, don't even offer the transit service if you're not going to be reliable enough to be used. Not impressed, like so much of the rest of my stay. Yet they feel they can charge St Moritz prices for Okefenokee level service. Because they know no better, but think they do. 

Doesn't it just sound like I'm dying to get back here again?? Who wouldn't?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

Teleskier said:


> Doesn't it just sound like I'm dying to get back here again?? *Who wouldn't?*



You maybe?   

 I mean, given just last year in the below post you said you'd never want to ski in Utah in the first place due to moral reasons, the lack of ski culture, the fact you didnt think it would be fun, and that you'd rank Utah in "very last" place out of all major North American ski destinations etc..

And yet you went anyway!   And greatly succeeded in finding all of your (ignorant) preconceived notions.

LULZ




Teleskier said:


> There was only one of the passes I investigated that contained Utah locations.
> 
> Furthermore, I had collected a list of the almost 80 destinations that the passes I was investigating went to. And ranked them all. Based on my - yes my - desirability factor for where I'd want to spend my time and money.
> 
> ...


----------



## sankaty (Mar 5, 2018)

This was my last experience with Utah (two years ago):

Got a reasonably priced Southwest flight to SLC.

Found a very inexpensive Subaru wagon rental from the airport for four days.

Stayed in a very inexpensive but serviceable hotel in Murray, about 25 minutes from Snowbird.

Met a couple of friends who used to work at Snowbird for skiing in Snowbird and dinner in SLC.  The food was great, and I had two of the best ski days I've ever had, replete with knee-deep, fluffy powder over incredible terrain.  I think those two days are my largest vertical days ever.

On the third day, I came down with the flu.

My point is, Utah is a miserable flu-ridden miasma.  I don't understand why anyone would choose its pathogenic air over Vermont's pristine, disease-free atmosphere.


----------



## andrec10 (Mar 5, 2018)

Skied Snowbird today. It was off the charts! But I was here last year and you can see rocks, that were covered last year.


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 5, 2018)

Brighton was amazing today. Powder Mtn will be amazing tomorrow. My beer tasted great. We have a house rental for far cheaper then a hotel, so we cooked dinmer.
I love UT!

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2018)

But, but, but..... there's NO train!!!   

You troglodytes just dont understand that no fun may be had without a train!


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## kingslug (Mar 6, 2018)

Well lets see. Yes staying on the mt can be expensive, more so at Alta due to limited rooms than Snowbird so you have to stay in town for a deal. But the bus up the Canyon is good or you can rent a jeep..not a car and do it your self. Even if it dumps you can park and take the bus up. The skiing will be good the nightlife not so much. So ski until your totally exhausted , then you wont care. This year was rough but has bounced back. Want nightlife and things to do then PC is it but the skiing is no where near as good. Want to get away from it all...Ogden. But the skiing isn't as good as LCC or BCC but usually better than PC. One thing you wont deal with that you have to in CO is the shlep getting to the MT's. I70 is insane and most resorts in CO are much farther than in Utah. Want it all...Jackson.Easy to get to...good town...insane mountain. See you there next season.


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## Abominable (Mar 6, 2018)

gregnye said:


> It's amazing that the public transportation is considered "good" in America just by existing. And this is coming from someone who works at a transit agency, who has driven a 40 foot and 60 foot city transit bus through city streets.
> 
> I found Utah's ski busses to be too small, overcrowded and infrequent. It is amazing that there is a bus: yes! However for a skiing destination as close as it is to a major city, there should be a train or a more frequent/ faster connection. Just look at the Alps or Europe for inspiration.
> 
> While Utah continues to run their ancient busses, Denver has already installed a train all the way to the airport (which by the way is really far from the city center). Nice try Utah, but you still are second best



I agree with your larger point re: public transp. in this county.

And I don't mean to argue with you or sound like I'm rabidly defending SLC as a skiing destination.

BUT I disagree with the rest of this.  True, Denver _finally_ got their train to the airport, about 20 years late, but they got it.  That's been an issue forever.  But you take it to Union Station, and then what?  Amtrak to Winter Park?

I've taken a train to ski Aspen (in the 20th century).  We had to go all the way to Glenwood Springs.  They do have good bus coverage in Summit County, but that's no different than SLC.

I bet Frisco is ten times the charming ski town SLC is, but how do you get there?  Car, private shuttle or (gulp) greyhound is all I can find.

SLC has a light rail system straight from the airport to anywhere you want to go, and beat Denver to that goal by a couple years.  The bus system up into the canyons is great, and no way you'd ever have a train going up in there unless it was built in the Civil War era (before the automobile).  Want to ski Pow Mow?  Front runner to Ogden, bus on up.  Don't even have to go all the way into SLC.

And of course due to Geography everything is that much closer together, making the pub tran options really convenient in that your not giving up that much time and convenience vs. your own car.

The one downside to SLC is that, as a city, it's not very charming at all, especially out in the areas where it's cheap to stay you have easy access to the bus routes.  Like a poster above said, lots of chains, and you're basically staying on the side of a big four lane road in between the car wash and the big box store.

Bohemian Brewery is an oasis in that regard.

I think my next big trip I'll try Frisco.  That place looks fun.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

Abominable said:


> I bet Frisco is ten times the charming ski town SLC is, but how do you get there?



I wouldn't call Frisco or Silverthorne "charming" really, but they're small & conveniently located.  Last year was the first time I stayed there, but you could tell construction has/had been booming in the last 5 to 10 years.  Probably a good place for a young couple to put down for 5 years.


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## cdskier (Mar 6, 2018)

Well this thread took an entertaining turn...


----------



## gregnye (Mar 6, 2018)

sankaty said:


> This was my last experience with Utah (two years ago):
> On the third day, I came down with the flu.
> 
> My point is, Utah is a miserable flu-ridden miasma.  I don't understand why anyone would choose its pathogenic air over Vermont's pristine, disease-free atmosphere.



I know you're joking, but recently there actually have been more instances of smog in Salt Lake City. So in the future this might actually be true, meanwhile the residents of Utah will continue to be ignorant towards their impact on the environment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

gregnye said:


> *the **residents of Utah will continue to be ignorant towards their impact on the environment.*



If only Utahns were as enlightened as you are, the world would truly be a better place.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I know you're joking, but recently there actually have been more instances of smog in Salt Lake City. So in the future this might actually be true, meanwhile the residents of Utah will continue to be ignorant towards their impact on the environment.



Yes, Utah has bad inversion thanks to the geography.  As to a generalization of Utah residents being ignorant, you are wrong on that one.  A good many (probably a majority) actually WANT action taken, but those in power are not reacting.  In large part due to the three or four large refineries in the valley and their owners' lobbying.


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## Jully (Mar 6, 2018)

Abominable said:


> I agree with your larger point re: public transp. in this county.
> 
> And I don't mean to argue with you or sound like I'm rabidly defending SLC as a skiing destination.
> 
> ...



Agree with this. SLC airport to train to bus to mountain is much easier than DIA to train to train to mountain (I just did both this season and vastly preferred SLC). We only went to WP in CO too.


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## slatham (Mar 6, 2018)

I was in Park City Fri-Sunday. Fri/Sat was good "east coast skiing". Sunday was over a foot of Utah's finest with upper mountain double blacks, bowls and hike to bowls all in play and in fine shape. Ironically its the same storm that will deliver the Northeast with some powder this week, which hopefully I will get on at some point for a double dip.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 6, 2018)

So I haven't yet pulled the trigger on my apparently annual mid-April trip to Snowbird yet. Are there still rumors of a May 1st closing? Does anyone have an educated guess as to how the snowpack will hold up? (Looks like it's over 100" base some more snow is on the way too). 

Also, am I the only one who is glad that at 9000 feet I'm drinking a low alchohol beer instead of 8% VT 2xIPAs for lunch, especiall on day 1?


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Also, am I the only one who is glad that at 9000 feet I'm drinking a low alchohol beer instead of 8% VT 2xIPAs for lunch, especiall on day 1?


Yes, yes you are.  Personally, I don't like a state to arbitrarily limit how strong the beer I drink is allowed to be.
There are always lower-ABV options available, not just 8% Double IPAs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So I haven't yet pulled the trigger on my apparently annual mid-April trip to Snowbird yet. Are there still rumors of a May 1st closing? Does anyone have an educated guess as to how the snowpack will hold up? (Looks like it's over 100" base some more snow is on the way too).
> 
> Also, am I the only one who is glad that at 9000 feet I'm drinking a low alchohol beer instead of 8% VT 2xIPAs for lunch, especiall on day 1?



Hard to say.  We just had a great cycle and bases are near 100".  We are in a ridge pattern for the next week or so, and then maybe some more snow.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Yes, yes you are.  Personally, I don't like a state to arbitrarily limit how strong the beer I drink is allowed to be.
> There are always lower-ABV options available, not just 8% Double IPAs.



I just said day 1 ...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> *I don't like a state to arbitrarily limit how strong the beer I drink is allowed to be.*



Seriously.  It's absolutely moronic.  It's not like beer is 80 proof whiskey to begin with.  

 All I know is if I lived there I'd make the 1 hour pilgrimage to Wyoming every 3 or 4 months and stock up on decent craft beer.


----------



## Abominable (Mar 6, 2018)

What are the beer laws?  I seem to remember having plenty of "good" beer?  I think any place that can serve booze can serve whatever beer they want?

The only things I remember are:

you can get a six pack to go from the bar, and

at some places, you had to order food to get beer / booze.

I'm not sure what everyone is complaining about but I'm probably hopelessly misinformed and acting hammered after drinking O'douls.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I just said day 1 ...


I'm not even a big drinker.  I still disagree with the law.



BenedictGomez said:


> Seriously.  It's absolutely moronic.  It's not like beer is 80 proof whiskey to begin with.
> 
> All I know is if I lived there I'd make the 1 hour pilgrimage to Wyoming every 3 or 4 months and stock up on decent craft beer.


I don't drink much, but agree it is insane.  I'm not sure what their laws are on liquor.  I'd absolutely do the same though to get some craft beer.  If they have limits on bourbon, then we have some issues.  It sounds like no issues other than having to go to a State-run liquor store.



Abominable said:


> What are the beer laws?  I seem to remember having plenty of "good" beer?  I think any place that can serve booze can serve whatever beer they want?
> 
> The only things I remember are:
> 
> ...


3.2 percent alcohol by weight (4 percent by volume) from any establishment which is NOT a state-run liquor store.
Sure, there is good session beer at 3.2%... but very few of the styles I like to drink are under 5%.

Personally, I'm not basing my decision to travel on alcohol, but I think that state mandate is insane.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> All I know is if I lived there I'd make the 1 hour pilgrimage to Wyoming every 3 or 4 months and stock up on decent craft beer.



Holy sacred golden tablets, apparently that is illegal.  

https://sbi.utah.gov/alcohol-enforcement-team/frequently-asked-questions/
(see "Can I bring alcoholic beverages into Utah from another state?")


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Holy sacred golden tablets, apparently that is illegal.
> 
> https://sbi.utah.gov/alcohol-enforcement-team/frequently-asked-questions/
> (see "Can I bring alcoholic beverages into Utah from another state?")


I think just about everything good is illegal in Utah.


----------



## Jully (Mar 6, 2018)

You used to have to have a membership to bars I think.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

Jully said:


> You used to have to have a membership to bars I think.



Correct.  Before the 2002 Olympics.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Holy sacred golden tablets, apparently that is illegal.
> 
> https://sbi.utah.gov/alcohol-enforcement-team/frequently-asked-questions/
> (see "Can I bring alcoholic beverages into Utah from another state?")



It is illegal in most states to import booze.  But if you are buying for yourself you are usually fine.  It is a law that is not often enforced.  It is pretty much impossible to enforce unless you stopped every car.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

Jully said:


> You used to have to have a membership to bars I think.





thetrailboss said:


> Correct.  Before the 2002 Olympics.


That's batshit crazy.



thetrailboss said:


> It is illegal in most states to import booze.  But if you are buying for yourself you are usually fine.  It is a law that is not often enforced.  It is pretty much impossible to enforce unless you stopped every car.


Technically Massachusetts has similar rules/laws because people will drive up to New Hampshire to buy booze or cigarettes due to no sales tax or fireworks due to legal reasons.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Seriously.  It's absolutely moronic.  It's not like beer is 80 proof whiskey to begin with.
> 
> All I know is if I lived there I'd make the 1 hour pilgrimage to Wyoming every 3 or 4 months and stock up on decent craft beer.



So when another state did away with their low-point beer, a couple major national brewers told Utah that low-point beer was going to go by the wayside.  The Utah Legislature briefly considered the low-point category and getting rid of it.  But they focused on more important things.   Like making it optional to stop at red lights.  I am completely serious.  :roll:  So, as of now, low-point beer remains a thing in Utah, but the selection may decrease.

The people who are appointed to the DABC have NO experience AT ALL with alcohol.  Last year the board went to a liquor outlet.  A senior member of the board said he had never drank, and had never even been in a liquor outlet.  He was middle aged.  Accordingly, the DABC has a lot of problems and is not well run.  

The DABC went after a local theater for showing DEADPOOL and serving beer.  THE HORROR.  Serving a beer at an R-rated movie.  But the strip club a few hundred feet down the road, with booze, is FINE.  The DABC LOST THEIR SHIRTS in Court.  Though I laugh, my taxes are paying that theater's legal costs now.   

A certain major institution in Utah calls the shots...both explicitly and implicitly.  And drinking is bad in their mind.  All who seek to move up in said institution have to preach the party line.  Those that make these ridiculous rules are promoted in said institution.  Get it?


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> So when another state did away with their low-point beer, a couple major national brewers told Utah that low-point beer was going to go by the wayside.  The Utah Legislature briefly considered the low-point category and getting rid of it.  But they focused on more important things.   Like making it optional to stop at red lights.  I am completely serious.  :roll:  So, as of now, low-point beer remains a thing in Utah, but the selection may decrease.
> 
> The people who are appointed to the DABC have NO experience AT ALL with alcohol.  Last year the board went to a liquor outlet.  A senior member of the board said he had never drank, and had never even been in a liquor outlet.  He was middle aged.  Accordingly, the DABC has a lot of problems and is not well run.
> 
> ...


That sounds awful, to be honest.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> That sounds awful, to be honest.



It is.  I am not a big drinker.  The culture is changing faster than the views of the elected officialdom.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> It is.  I am not a big drinker.  The culture is changing faster than the views of the elected officialdom.


I am not a big drinker either, but my tax money being wasted on things like that would drive me up the wall.


----------



## Abominable (Mar 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> 3.2 percent alcohol by weight (4 percent by volume) from any establishment which is NOT a state-run liquor store.
> Sure, there is good session beer at 3.2%... but very few of the styles I like to drink are under 5%.
> 
> Personally, I'm not basing my decision to travel on alcohol, but I think that state mandate is insane.



I'm not sure this is accurate.  I think that's only if you're carrying out.  I think any place with a full liquor license (i.e. the bar at the ski hill) can serve full beer.

No?

EDIT, googling it, I think you may be right in that all TAP beer at the mountain is limited to 4%.  But they can still give you your IPA in a can.


----------



## Abominable (Mar 6, 2018)

This is what the internet says:

Utah drinking laws you need to know
1. Shotskis are totally allowed
2. Grocery stores only sell 4% ABV beer (aka the mythical 3.2% ABW* beer)
3. Tap beers everywhere? Also only 4%.
4. Bottled beers at bars/restaurants can be whatever % they want (oontz, oontz, oontz)
5. Shotskis are TOTALLY allowed
6. If you're at a restaurant, you have to order some kind of food if you wanna drink
7. Cocktails can only have 1.5oz of their main booze, but you can get a sidecar provided it's not the same as the main booze. Basically get a shot of bourbon with your rye Old Fashioned.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 6, 2018)

I don't consider myself a "big" drinker, but I do like my craft beer and some wine with dinner. Utah's laws would drive me insane. It is somewhat surprising that no one has yet found a way to challenge some of them in court when you consider the basis and driving force behind many of those laws.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I don't consider myself a "big" drinker, but I do like my craft beer and some wine with dinner. Utah's laws would drive me insane. It is somewhat surprising that no one has yet found a way to challenge some of them in court when you consider the basis and driving force behind many of those laws.



I imagine that the DUI bill will be challenged for this reason.  There was NO data to support a need for a .05 BAC limit.  They just passed it because they felt like it and because the sponsor wanted to get kudos from a certain church.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> *Holy sacred golden tablets, apparently that is illegal.  *
> 
> https://sbi.utah.gov/alcohol-enforcement-team/frequently-asked-questions/
> (see "*Can I bring alcoholic beverages into Utah from another state?"*)



Pfffffttt...... Trust me.  If I lived in Utah my Irish Catholic azz would make the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs.



Jcb890 said:


> I am not a big drinker either, but *my tax money being wasted on things like that would drive me up the wall.*



Do you not live in Massachusetts anymore?



thetrailboss said:


> I imagine that the DUI bill will be challenged for this reason.  *There was NO data to support a need for a .05 BAC limit. * They just passed it because they felt like it and because the sponsor wanted to get kudos from a certain church.



That's insane too.  They're going to stain people forever with a DWI who only have 1 drink.   A young girl under 130 pounds will likely be .05 after a glass of wine.  That law will probably be repealed once some State Senator's daughter gets a DUI after having 1 martini.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

Abominable said:


> This is what the internet says:
> 
> 3. *Tap beers everywhere? Also only 4%.*



I dont believe this is the case.  

I accidentally stumbled upon a brew pub in SLC called RedRock and I definitely recall having an IPA from tap, and you cant have a 4% abv IPA.    I was at a brew pub at the top of Main Street in Park City and had tap IPAs too.   Also, Uinta is located somewhere in Utah (good IPA if you've never had it) and they definitely make beer at > 4%, which I imagine they serve locally.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you not live in Massachusetts anymore?


Good point, sadly yes.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Good point, sadly yes.



Not to continue on with politics, but at least my taxes are not driven up to ridiculous amounts in Utah as they were in VT.  I could not stand the other extreme either.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to continue on with politics, but at least my taxes are not driven up to ridiculous amounts in Utah as they were in VT.  I could not stand the other extreme either.



It's gotten worse since you left.  Vermont now has a higher C.O.L. than does New Jersey, which is positively astounding.


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## jmgard (Mar 6, 2018)

Wow... and I frequently complain about Mass's annoying liquor laws. I've lived in CA and NY, the two most regulation-happy states in the US, and they still let you buy beer at the gas station or the grocery store (and after 11pm, some of us want to relax after working a late shift you know...) while the puritan legacy lives on here even though it's not 1620 anymore. There's a reason I give most of my beer money to NH or VT instead of the liquor store monopoly down here. I think I'd go crazy in Utah. Tolerable enough for a vacation but I could never live in a place that restrictive...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's gotten worse since you left.  Vermont now has a higher C.O.L. than does New Jersey, which is positively astounding.



Hence why I left.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to continue on with politics, but at least my taxes are not driven up to ridiculous amounts in Utah as they were in VT.  I could not stand the other extreme either.



Yeah, aside from the alcohol laws and a few other things, I always thought that Utah was a fairly well-run state with a reasonable tax burden.


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## benski (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Hence why I left.



And why I plan to leave after college.


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## benski (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> [Utah] making it optional to stop at red lights.


 So in Utah, you can run red light all you want as long as you don't get yourself killed? or are you talking about rights on red? 

The Utah rule is crazy. I mean, they called Bud light hard liqueur. I typically avoid anything bellow 5% ABV if I am buying for myself and never bellow 4% ABV.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2018)

benski said:


> So in Utah, you can run red light all you want as long as you don't get yourself killed?



It's really not crazy at all.  If you think about it, a lot of the west is flattish, and you can see for a LONG way.  It's beyond dumb to sit a a red light for 3 minutes when you can see for 1/2 mile in every direction.


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## kingslug (Mar 7, 2018)

You can buy all the wine you want..all the hardcore beer you want..all the booze you want..at the state run liquor store. No problem. No need to go to Wyoming or anywhere else. The politics on the other hand are truly weird.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's gotten worse since you left.  Vermont now has a higher C.O.L. than does New Jersey, which is positively astounding.


  How is this calculated?


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## tnt1234 (Mar 7, 2018)

kingslug said:


> You can buy all the wine you want..all the hardcore beer you want..all the booze you want..at the state run liquor store. No problem. No need to go to Wyoming or anywhere else. The politics on the other hand are truly weird.



but not at a bar, right?


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 7, 2018)

jmgard said:


> Wow... and I frequently complain about Mass's annoying liquor laws. I've lived in CA and NY, the two most regulation-happy states in the US, and they still let you buy beer at the gas station or the grocery store (and after 11pm, some of us want to relax after working a late shift you know...) while the puritan legacy lives on here even though it's not 1620 anymore. There's a reason I give most of my beer money to NH or VT instead of the liquor store monopoly down here. I think I'd go crazy in Utah. Tolerable enough for a vacation but I could never live in a place that restrictive...


  You can buy beer in MA grocery stores, just not all of them.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

kingslug said:


> You can buy all the wine you want..all the hardcore beer you want..all the booze you want..at the state run liquor store. No problem. No need to go to Wyoming or anywhere else. The politics on the other hand are truly weird.



I only went into 1 Utah State liquor store, but I was finding "funny beers" with lower alcohol content than normal.  The boxes and cans looked exactly the same, but the alcohol percentage was lower, so some (all?) breweries that sell in Utah manufacture special beer to sell in the state.  Goose Island IPA is a "for instance" I can give, it should have 5.9% ABV, but the G.I. IPA on the shelf in Utah had a much lower alcohol content.



ThinkSnow said:


> How is this calculated?



B.L.S. data.  

VT & NJ are very comparable right now, some places in each state would be more, some places in each state would be less, which would likely shock many people.  Most everything you buy in NJ is cheaper than it is in Vermont, it's the home prices in NJ that lifts NJ up high to be roughly equivalent.


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## Scruffy (Mar 7, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> but not at a bar, right?



Just ask for a bottle of beer at the bar if you're worried about ABV %. Honestly, I'v been a craft beer guy and home brewer since the 80's and I've skied Utah for decades and I've never had bad beer there. There are a lot of award winning craft beers brewed and sold in bars there, why worry about ABV? But I don't usually buy beer at grocery stores there for my condo or/motel room; I just go to good restaurants, pubs, or brew pubs and have always had good beer. I'm there to ski, not get drunk. Now, I'm sure some beer snobs will opine over the nuances of craft brews in Utah vs Vermont or elsewhere, but really why? Just enjoy the experience of being somewhere else in the world and skiing different terrain and snow.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

Scruffy said:


> I'm sure some beer snobs will opine over the nuances of craft brews in Utah vs Vermont or elsewhere, *but really why? *



Because they're stuck in 1998.

  Vermont was one of the states at the forefront of the craft beer revolution in America, so early on it had some of the best offerings, but now there are great craft beers from just about every state in America (and some great Canuck offerings as well).  In 20 short years this country went from one of the world places on earth for beer drinkers, to the best place on earth for beer drinkers.


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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2018)

I believe even in Colorado grocery stores sell beer but they are less in ABV then if you buy beer at a liquor store there. At least that is what I noticed in Breck.


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## Scruffy (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because they're stuck in 1998.
> 
> Vermont was one of the states at the forefront of the craft beer revolution in America, so early on it had some of the best offerings, but now there are great craft beers from just about every state in America (and some great Canuck offerings as well).  In 20 short years this country went from one of the world places on earth for beer drinkers, to the best place on earth for beer drinkers.



So? Enjoy the snow, drink your Hill Farmstead, or Lawsons when you get back.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 7, 2018)

Scruffy said:


> So? Enjoy the snow, drink your Hill Farmstead, or Lawsons when you get back.


 Right?  Or enjoy a local beer with a tequila on the side.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2018)

The antiquated and inconsistent liquor laws in general in this country annoy me. The shipping laws for wine are absolutely insane in how much they vary from state to state.

That said, these laws wouldn't be a factor in where I choose to go skiing on vacation. Living in a place would be a different story...but for vacations I could deal with it since the primary goal would be the skiing itself.


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## kingslug (Mar 7, 2018)

I go for the nuclear beers..9,10,11%. They have them. Russian imperial stouts, Golden Monkey. Get as drunk as you want..then ski like shit the next day.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2018)

benski said:


> So in Utah, you can run red light all you want as long as you don't get yourself killed? or are you talking about rights on red?
> 
> The Utah rule is crazy. I mean, they called Bud light hard liqueur. I typically avoid anything bellow 5% ABV if I am buying for myself and never bellow 4% ABV.



The proposal is that folks can stop, and if there is no oncoming traffic, just proceed.  In any direction at a red light.  Completely stupid.


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 7, 2018)

Love Golden Monkey, but can’t drink more than a six pack without getting stupid &#55357;&#56885; 



kingslug said:


> I go for the nuclear beers..9,10,11%. They have them. Russian imperial stouts, Golden Monkey. Get as drunk as you want..then ski like shit the next day.


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## kingslug (Mar 7, 2018)

Thats like drinking almost 12 beers....


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 7, 2018)

And....�� lol


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> The proposal is that folks can stop, and if there is no oncoming traffic, just proceed.  In any direction at a red light.  Completely stupid.



As long as urban and heavily suburban areas are not included, I'd like the idea. 

A good example is the light at 22A/rt 7 in Vergennes. Completely useless traffic light 99% of the day, and you can see long distances in both directions.  



kingslug said:


> Thats like drinking almost 12 beers....



Last night I decided I don't like high alcohol content beers after having maybe the 4th variety of those I've had and not liking any of them.  This was a 12.4% oak barrel aged Founders IPA, and I love the regular Founders IPA so I figured why not.  Long story short it tasted like beer splashed with whiskey, I could definitely taste the oak barrel aging. Did not like.

Also, it was a 24 ounce beer (with a fancy wax covered top for reasons I do not underrated) and I realized drinking this one beer would be equivalent to downing a 6-pack. Yikes.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> As long as urban and heavily suburban areas are not included, I'd like the idea.
> 
> A good example is the light at 22A/rt 7 in Vergennes. Completely useless traffic light 99% of the day, and you can see long distances in both directions.
> 
> ...


I prefer my high-ABV beers to not be IPAs.  I personally feel that IPAs don't hide the alcohol taste/burn compared to other styles.  Also, usually when that happens those same IPAs are high in IBU so they're more bitter to begin with.

Bourbon Barrel Aged Imperial Stouts and Sours are my go-to for that category.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 7, 2018)

Utah is bad because of the legality of one thing= Marijuana

Come on vacation leave on probation...... no thanks


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2018)

I find the "Oak Barrel" beers to taste like garbage. I'm not a person to sip beers, but I'm not a person to chug whiskey either. Capiche?

Also, only cops and people from Utah calibrate a single beer based on 12oz 4.8% ABV. I consider that a half beer, you probably do too.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> I prefer my high-ABV beers to not be IPAs.  I personally feel that IPAs don't hide the alcohol taste/burn compared to other styles..



When you come from drinking vodka , high ABV IPAs are just the ticket.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Utah is bad because of the legality of one thing= Marijuana
> 
> Come on vacation leave on probation...... no thanks



Most states are still that way.


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> As long as urban and heavily suburban areas are not included, I'd like the idea.
> 
> A good example is the light at 22A/rt 7 in Vergennes. Completely useless traffic light 99% of the day, and you can see long distances in both directions.
> 
> ...



I've had that one..I thought it was awesome..but then again I've had Brew Dogs Tactical Nuclear Penguin at 37% ..3rd strongest beer ever made.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 8, 2018)

Most traffic lights have sensors to trip the light if there is no activity in the other direction.I would guess there are a lot of lights there in remote areas that dont have those and dont want to spend money to change the so pass a law to allow.The red light post got me thinking about where Mass has a left turn on red after stop law.I thought that was bs so I looked it up.Yup,but only if both streets are one way.https://www.motorists.org/left-turn-on-red/


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## Jcb890 (Mar 9, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> I find the "Oak Barrel" beers to taste like garbage. I'm not a person to sip beers, but I'm not a person to chug whiskey either. Capiche?
> 
> Also, only cops and people from Utah calibrate a single beer based on 12oz 4.8% ABV. I consider that a half beer, you probably do too.





bdfreetuna said:


> When you come from drinking vodka , high ABV IPAs are just the ticket.


Not really, but sure.  There's some beer styles that taste as good or better as they warm up.

12oz is 12oz and enough of them will fill you up.  I prefer not to "waste" my 12oz.

Different strokes for different folks though.  I'll never fault anyone because they enjoy Bud Light.  I just generally won't drink it myself.


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## cdskier (Mar 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Different strokes for different folks though.  I'll never fault anyone because they enjoy Bud Light.  I just generally won't drink it myself.



That reminds me of something that happened last weekend at Sugarbush's new outdoor bar. Someone came up and asked for a bottled water. The bartender asked if they wanted a bottle of actual water or if they really meant they wanted a bottle of bud light. :grin:


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## Edd (Mar 9, 2018)

In a restaurant or bar, the booze situation is depressing. The draft beer sucks across the board for me. The pours on cocktails are weak. It feels like I’ve got to spend a fortune to catch a buzz. 

It’s like a parody of an actual bar. Or like that movie Pleasantville, where life is black and white and oddly sterile. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 10, 2018)

If alcohol is this important to you people, you might want to consider looking deep into the mirror at yourselves. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Mar 10, 2018)

Hawkshot99 said:


> If alcohol is this important to you people, you might want to consider looking deep into the mirror at yourselves.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



Not a fan of this post. Perhaps you should check your own mirror.


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## kingslug (Mar 10, 2018)

Well..its nice to have a few top quality beers to go with the top quality skiing..like..now..vt..has those..as well as utah.


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## Abominable (Mar 12, 2018)

Hawkshot99 said:


> If alcohol is this important to you people, you might want to consider looking deep into the mirror at yourselves.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



Man, I look _thirsty._


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