# It appears Stowe has joined the RFID game



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 10, 2011)

Evolution Stowe = RFID??

I haven't used any of these systems yet, but others have.  

Discuss


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 10, 2011)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Discuss


I like Jay's system. It will work for Stowe. It definitely eliminates theft of service issues... I have seen three groups get thrown out of line at Jay for not having the right ticket for the lift they are trying to use.

That said... I wondered in the Jay RFID thread what would happen as more areas rolled out RFID. You have that $5 "card fee" that you need to suffer. And now you need to pay Jay and Stowe $5 each for the privileged of buying a lift ticket. And as more areas come online with RFID, you'll pay more $5 charges and then you'll have a wallet full of different cards for different resorts. 

The ski areas and RFID companies need to get this issue figured out ASAP or ski areas need to stop charging $5/card. You shouldn't have to pay for the privileged of buying a day pass. And you shouldn't need to keep track of dozens of different cards just because you ski more than one mountain. This type of crap isn't fair to the customer. We'll hear more about this as more areas opt for RFID systems, I am sure.


----------



## marcski (Oct 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I like Jay's system. It will work for Stowe. It definitely eliminates theft of service issues... I have seen three groups get thrown out of line at Jay for not having the right ticket for the lift they are trying to use.
> 
> That said... I wondered in the Jay RFID thread what would happen as more areas rolled out RFID. You have that $5 "card fee" that you need to suffer. And now you need to pay Jay and Stowe $5 each for the privileged of buying a lift ticket. And as more areas come online with RFID, you'll pay more $5 charges and then you'll have a wallet full of different cards for different resorts.
> 
> The ski areas and RFID companies need to get this issue figured out ASAP or ski areas need to stop charging $5/card. You shouldn't have to pay for the privileged of buying a day pass. And you shouldn't need to keep track of dozens of different cards just because you ski more than one mountain. This type of crap isn't fair to the customer. We'll hear more about this as more areas opt for RFID systems, I am sure.



While I agree with your premise, Riv, you do get something, which IMHO, is worth something for the 5 bucks.  I am not sure about all of them, but with most of the ones I've seen, once you have the $5 card, you can reload online and then go straight to the lift, eliminating standing in line.  That is cool in my book and worth something... perhaps a one time charge of about $5.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 10, 2011)

From Stows web site:


> or they can return it to any ticket window at the end of their stay for a $5.00 refund.



You can get your 5 bucks back at the end of the day.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 10, 2011)

Was up at Jay this weekend and noticed that they moved the RFID gates back away from the lift. There is enough room now for at least half a dozen groups to que up after the gates so when someone ticket screws up chairs don't go up empty.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 10, 2011)

Not a big fan of them. Used it out at Squaw didn't have to pay extra for it. It is really for their benefit to stop theft. As Riv said who wants to have all these cards. Stowe is betting on most people not returning them at the end of the day. Also who wants to wait in another line at the end of a day when there is a cold beer waiting. If I could trade it in for a cold beer at the end of the day I might be more inclined to like it more.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 10, 2011)

I have used them at Park City and liked them. No more looking for your pass or the liftie "trying" to scan it with a crappy scanner!


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 10, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> Not a big fan of them. Used it out at Squaw didn't have to pay extra for it. It is really for their benefit to stop theft. As Riv said who wants to have all these cards. Stowe is betting on most people not returning them at the end of the day. Also who wants to wait in another line at the end of a day when there is a cold beer waiting. If I could trade it in for a cold beer at the end of the day I might be more inclined to like it more.



What problems have people had with them?  I've used them at several areas and never had any difficulty even in crowded conditions.  I may have had to rock back and forth to get it to read but its never caused me to miss a chair.  As far as returning them I know Solitude had a "mail box" type box for them to be dropped into, no breaking stride on the way to the bar.  Blue lets you reload them via the internet.  I don't see the downside.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

PS Just to clairify I have not paid attention to the $5 fee and guess I should be more careful.  Blue urges the buyer to keep the card and reload it via internet.  I'm not sure that's true for the Utah areas or other places I've used the system.  I'll watch this year and agree with Riv that could start to be an issue as more areas get on board.  I think the systems themselves work great


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 10, 2011)

andrec10 said:


> I have used them at Park City and liked them. No more looking for your pass or the liftie "trying" to scan it with a crappy scanner!



This is well worth the 5 bucks to me from the instances Ive used them. I hate playing the season pass game every time I ride a lift.


----------



## k123 (Oct 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> That said... I wondered in the Jay RFID thread what would happen as more areas rolled out RFID. You have that $5 "card fee" that you need to suffer. And now you need to pay Jay and Stowe $5 each for the privileged of buying a lift ticket. And as more areas come online with RFID, you'll pay more $5 charges and then you'll have a wallet full of different cards for different resorts.
> 
> The ski areas and RFID companies need to get this issue figured out ASAP or ski areas need to stop charging $5/card. You shouldn't have to pay for the privileged of buying a day pass. And you shouldn't need to keep track of dozens of different cards just because you ski more than one mountain. This type of crap isn't fair to the customer. We'll hear more about this as more areas opt for RFID systems, I am sure.



This probably will never happen but there should just be one universal RFID card that you can reload for any resort that has RFID.  Maybe you pay a one time $10 fee to get the card and then you can use it anywhere


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 10, 2011)

4aprice said:


> What problems have people had with them?  I've used them at several areas and never had any difficulty even in crowded conditions.  I may have had to rock back and forth to get it to read but its never caused me to miss a chair.  As far as returning them I know Solitude had a "mail box" type box for them to be dropped into, no breaking stride on the way to the bar.  Blue lets you reload them via the internet.  I don't see the downside.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



At Squaw the line would be held up when someone's card wouldn't work which was like 1 out of 10. There were multiple gates and you would get separated from your group you were going to run on the lift with. Drop box wouldn't get you your five bucks back. The down side is if you have to pay $5 extra at each different place you go to. Not a fan of the hand held scanner either but then I am not paying for their security system out right. Although I am paying for it I just don't see it.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 10, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> From Stows web site:
> 
> 
> You can get your 5 bucks back at the end of the day.


That is good. But still a major inconvenience. Basically a $5 deposit. I know Jay has one time use disposable cards that they use for comps and club sales. That should be an option for all customers, IMO.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 10, 2011)

k123 said:


> This probably will never happen but there should just be one universal RFID card that you can reload for any resort that has RFID.  Maybe you pay a one time $10 fee to get the card and then you can use it anywhere


This would indeed be ideal. The devil is in the details regarding credit card information, different point of sale systems, and networking it all together. Definitely could be done but I doubt the RFID folks nor the resorts using the system are going to advocate for a universal card. It definitely is not in the resort's best interest and it would increase costs and labor for both parties.


----------



## k123 (Oct 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> This would indeed be ideal. The devil is in the details regarding credit card information, different point of sale systems, and networking it all together. Definitely could be done but I doubt the RFID folks nor the resorts using the system are going to advocate for a universal card. It definitely is not in the resort's best interest and it would increase costs and labor for both parties.



I would be willing to pay a higher price since it would be much more convenient, but I can see why resorts wouldn't be willing to do it


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 10, 2011)

The less information about me on the world wide web that can be hacked the better.


----------



## skidmarks (Oct 10, 2011)

I like them. I hate the Stratton Grab!!! That's when the ticket guy yanks my jacket so he can scan the ticket every run. By the end of the day I want to punch him.


----------



## abc (Oct 10, 2011)

k123 said:


> I would be willing to pay a higher price since it would be much more convenient, but I can see why resorts wouldn't be willing to do it


Because the rest of us won't pay the extra. 8)

I don't mine paying it up front, as long as I get them back at a point I choose to. So for those who visit the same mountain many times, it's a non-issue. They either get their $5 back at the end of the season, or just cut their lost. But for those of us who roam around, a non-refundable $5/mountain is too steep. I for one will only go to mountains without that charge, which fortunately are all but one (Jay). I'll go to Burke instead. 

As for Jay's inability to even make the RFID work properly. That's just a sham.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2011)

JPTracker said:


> Was up at Jay this weekend and noticed that they moved the RFID gates back away from the lift. There is enough room now for at least half a dozen groups to que up after the gates so when someone ticket screws up chairs don't go up empty.



This is good news.  The card screwed up on me a couple of times when I was there in May.  I could see with the old set up that chairs could go up empty on a busy day.


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 11, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> The less information about me on the world wide web that can be hacked the better.



I could see why this could be an issue.  My feelings about EZ Pass are much the same.  Here in NJ they have an EZ Pass reader on one highway I know of that IS NOT a toll road.  Privacy is gettng harder.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2011)

skidmarks said:


> I like them. I hate the Stratton Grab!!! That's when the ticket guy yanks my jacket so he can scan the ticket every run. By the end of the day I want to punch him.



Put it on the zipper for your ski pants


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 11, 2011)

My problem with RFID is the same problem I have with conveyor loaders.  It's a costly infrastructure add-on that isn't needed.  And the cost is passed on to the consumer.  So now if I go ski Jay it costs me more than it did before and I get nothing additional for it.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> The less information about me on the world wide web that can be hacked the better.



Maybe they could just use that ankle bracelet you wear


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2011)

marcski said:


> While I agree with your premise, Riv, *you do get something*, which IMHO, is worth something for the 5 bucks..... *you can reload online and then go straight to the lift, eliminating standing in line.*  That is cool in my book and worth something... perhaps a one time charge of about $5.



What's the longest you've ever waited in line for a lift ticket?   I doubt I've ever waited more than 4 minutes, not worth $5.



4aprice said:


> I have not paid attention to the $5 fee and guess I should be more careful.



Which is part of why the cards exist.



4aprice said:


> My feelings about EZ Pass are much the same.  Here in NJ they have an EZ Pass reader on one highway I know of that IS NOT a toll road.  Privacy is gettng harder.



What road is that?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2011)

I have absolutely waited longer than 4 minutes for a lift ticket at places all over the country.  4 minutes is not that long.

I agree that the $5 is kind of BS, but you do get the ability to reload online and go straight to the lift.  

EZPASS scanners on a regular road, are you sure?  there are regular traffic scanners that look very similar.


----------



## Glenn (Oct 11, 2011)

The idea works for me. I think it could smooth out the lift lines...in theory.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2011)

agreed.  

I don't think anyone has a problem with the technology, as much as they do the aditional $5.

that make's Stowes Weekend ticket $97:-o:angry::???:


----------



## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

I think RFID is a solid idea.  The $5 fee is an annoyance, particularly if you day trip to multiple places and/or only visit the RFID place once.  I think we'll see a lot of places who are using barcode scanners now switch over to RFID in the next few years.


----------



## marcski (Oct 11, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> What's the longest you've ever waited in line for a lift ticket?   I doubt I've ever waited more than 4 minutes, not worth $5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, for someone that lives in Manhattan, you sure are cheap!  :lol::lol:

And, I've definitely waiting substantially longer than 4 minutes for a lift ticket.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2011)

do you have to get a new one every year?


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Oct 11, 2011)

The only place I've been to with RFID is Blue and there was no fee last season.  So when I go this season I'll just reload it on the internet before I leave, put on my gear and go to the lift.  I went on a weekday so there were no lines at the gates, I don't know how it works out on a busy weekend.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2011)

marcski said:


> Man,* for someone that lives in Manhattan, you sure are cheap! * :lol::lol:



 I just dont like to piss money away, whatever the amount.

  I also do a lot of things on principle, like return my bottles for the 5 cent refund fee, which virtually nobody does (which is exactly what the government counts on to make money).


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 11, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> What road is that?



Rt 24 in the Chatham/Madison area.  Source:  Paul Mulshine  Star Ledger.  Was around the time they were exploring tolling more roads, could be gone now but they were definately collecting data.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## bvibert (Oct 11, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> do you have to get a new one every year?



No, you shouldn't have to.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 11, 2011)

4aprice said:


> Rt 24 in the Chatham/Madison area.  Source:  Paul Mulshine  Star Ledger.  Was around the time they were exploring tolling more roads, could be gone now but they were definately collecting data.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



You realize this is not that big a deal right? Ever see two black cables stretched across a road at an intersection. They are effectively doing the same thing. They are just measuring how much traffic flows through that section on a given day. Lay off the conspiracy theories for a bit.


----------



## soposkier (Oct 11, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> You realize this is not that big a deal right? Ever see two black cables stretched across a road at an intersection. They are effectively doing the same thing. They are just measuring how much traffic flows through that section on a given day. Lay off the conspiracy theories for a bit.



Agreed.  Traffic counts are also performed by utilizing bluetooth transmissions to get real time travel data for certain stretches of roadway.  As long as your ezpass statement doesnt have extra charges, I wouldnt be too worried about it.


----------



## 4aprice (Oct 11, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> You realize this is not that big a deal right? Ever see two black cables stretched across a road at an intersection. They are effectively doing the same thing. They are just measuring how much traffic flows through that section on a given day. Lay off the conspiracy theories for a bit.



I'm not a conspiracy guy but your analogy loses me.  Two black cables cannot tell you what car has passed over them.  With EZ Pass they know who you are (or a least what car has passed by).  What they use the data for I don't know but they have collected it.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## soposkier (Oct 11, 2011)

4aprice said:


> I'm not a conspiracy guy but your analogy loses me.  Two black cables cannot tell you what car has passed over them.  With EZ Pass they know who you are (or a least what car has passed by).  What they use the data for I don't know but they have collected it.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



true, but put a video data collection system with those pneumatic tubes and it can tell what vehicle is driving over.  The overall issue of privacy is still there, but just saying that this is not unique to using ezpass for data collection.


----------



## marcski (Oct 11, 2011)

4aprice said:


> I'm not a conspiracy guy but your analogy loses me.  Two black cables cannot tell you what car has passed over them.  With EZ Pass they know who you are (or a least what car has passed by).  What they use the data for I don't know but they have collected it.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



I kind of agree with Alex on this one.  Makes you think about putting the EZ Pass tag in the glove compartment and only take it out when its toll time!


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 11, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> My problem with RFID is the same problem I have with conveyor loaders.  It's a costly infrastructure add-on that isn't needed.  And the cost is passed on to the consumer.  So now if I go ski Jay it costs me more than it did before and I get nothing additional for it.


Let's see some numbers from Jay and Stowe on this theory. Is there year to year bump any higher than usual? Assume 5% is normal, perhaps? Where is billski when you need a year to year ticket price comparison? :lol:


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 11, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Let's see some numbers from Jay and Stowe on this theory. Is there year to year bump any higher than usual? Assume 5% is normal, perhaps? Where is billski when you need a year to year ticket price comparison? :lol:



That's a legit way to assess it.  But I doubt you need to take it that far.  Installing new equipment = money and that absolutely will get passed on to the consumer in one form or another.  And most likely it gets passed on with additional profit built in.  Do you think those RFID cards cost exactly $5 to the mtn?  That would be an amazingly convenient cost.  My guess is that $5 covers the extra cost to the mtn....plus a fair bit of overage. It's just the amount they feel they can get away with. Meanwhile the cost of the system will get rolled into the overall infrastructure costs and will need to be covered by increased revenue.

I'm sure someone will argue that RFID might represent a cost savings as compared to ticket checkers.  Maybe, but I would still have 2 problems with that 1) the cost savings most likely doesn't get passed back to the consumer, and 2) I'd rather see a person with a job than a machine with a job.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 11, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> I'd rather see a person with a job than a machine with a job.



Machines don't pay taxes either.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 11, 2011)

I didn't notice any price jump at Jay last year (at least any more than is typical for Jay or compared to every other mountain in New England that goes up 5%/year) which is why I suggested a price comparo. I don't think these costs are being passed on to customers aside from the $5 up charge for the card (which I don't think is right... personally, I'd rather see everyone pay an extra buck per visit).


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2011)

marcski said:


> I kind of agree with Alex on this one.  Makes you think about putting the EZ Pass tag in the glove compartment and only take it out when its toll time!



Ours still works while in the glove compartment - sometimes


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2011)

steamboat1 said:


> Machines don't pay taxes either.



They could also put in ticket kiosks and get rid of more people and charge you more as well.


----------



## skidmarks (Oct 11, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> Put it on the zipper for your ski pants



What a great idea! Hope they have more cute Columbian Coeds this year VS VT Woodchucks.


----------



## Glenn (Oct 12, 2011)

I could see something like this being integrated into a ski coat. Or better yet, your smartphone.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 12, 2011)

Need to contact my criminal genius friends who can figure out how to manipulate these to my advantage. All joking aside someone will figure out how to just like people have with all other technology - ATM cards, cable boxes etc.


----------



## C-Rex (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm sure it's only a matter of time until someone figures out how to hack them as well.  It'll decrease theft, for sure, but some clever people will figure out a way around it.  

I like the idea of being able to trade the card for a beer at the end of the day.  They should let you use them like gift cards in the restaurants, bars, or shops.  Then they could be "returned" anywhere on the mountain.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> That's a legit way to assess it.  But I doubt you need to take it that far. * Installing new equipment = money and that absolutely will get passed on to the consumer *in one form or another.  And *most likely it gets passed on with additional profit built in.* *Do you think those RFID cards cost exactly $5 to the mtn? * That would be an amazingly convenient cost.  *My guess is that $5 covers the extra cost to the mtn....plus a fair bit of overage.*



RFID is mainly about profit, plain and simple, as the RFID cards are cheap.  Once they hit breakeven on the technology via $5 fees, does anyone think they're going to remove the $5 fee?   Of course not.  And as others have stated, it reduces paychecks etc...


----------



## Black Phantom (Oct 12, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> RFID is mainly about profit, plain and simple, as the RFID cards are cheap.  Once they hit breakeven on the technology via $5 fees, does anyone think they're going to remove the $5 fee?   Of course not.  And as others have stated, it reduces paychecks etc...



The technology probably produces higher paying, skilled jobs in the back office.

Do you actually think that a ski area should operate without a profit or just break even?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> The technology probably produces higher paying, skilled jobs in the back office.
> 
> *Do you actually think that a ski area should operate without a profit or just break even?*



No.     

Anything else?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> The technology probably produces higher paying, skilled jobs in the back office.
> 
> Do you actually think that a ski area should operate without a profit or just break even?



No but the Occupy wall street people do.


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> The technology probably produces higher paying, skilled jobs in the back office.



How so?


----------



## nashuaskibum (Oct 16, 2011)

I've used the RFID at both Snowbird and Jay, and never had any problems with it. At Jay I was on a throw away comp voucher though, so no $5 fee for me. But I also lost out in the deal in some ways. It was my only day this season at Jay, and if you had the re-loadable card and read their newsletter through march-may they were blowing out great deals if you loaded the card online. They were offering like $25 Fridays and $45 Sat+Sun. So when you break out the costs that way, its not a bad deal. 

Also I've always been told a lot of places in Europe use the RFID setup, and in-regards to interoperability, I know a swiss girl who's got a swatch watch with the chip built in all she had to do was load the ticket up on to it and hit the slopes.


----------



## mlkrgr (Oct 17, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I didn't notice any price jump at Jay last year (at least any more than is typical for Jay or compared to every other mountain in New England that goes up 5%/year) which is why I suggested a price comparo. I don't think these costs are being passed on to customers aside from the $5 up charge for the card (which I don't think is right... personally, I'd rather see everyone pay an extra buck per visit).



Jay did increase by $2 last year vs the year before. Now, it will be another $6 increase to make the cost of a regular priced adult ticket $75.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 17, 2011)

mlkrgr said:


> Jay did increase by $2 last year vs the year before. Now, it will be another $6 increase to make the cost of a regular priced adult ticket $75.


$2 is below average, $6 is above average, and a two year averaged increase of $4 which seems about average these days. $72 reload on the card so $5 increase over two years if you have their card already. I just don't see these price increases as being tied to RFID. Jay is still cheaper even at full walk up rate compared to the big name resorts in New England. Not saying its cheap but I just don't see how you can point to a $5-8 increase over two years (especially compared to other resorts doing the same damn thing) as being due to RFID.

Jay ain't going to pay for RFID by day ticket price increases. That is just silly thinking. RFID is going to get paid for by kids and families using the RFID card tied to their credit card to buy for stuff without paying cash out of hand or handing someone a credit card. This type of thing is typical across many channels. It increases purchases when you have a captive audience. It may increase lift ticket sales. So RFID may increase sales but it is the increased sales, not a small price bump (who pays full walk up these days, any ways?) that is going to pay for RFID. At Jay, Stowe, or where else adopts it next.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> $2 is below average, $6 is above average, and a two year averaged increase of $4 which seems about average these days. $72 reload on the card so $5 increase over two years if you have their card already. I just don't see these price increases as being tied to RFID. Jay is still cheaper even at full walk up rate compared to the big name resorts in New England. Not saying its cheap but I just don't see how you can point to a $5-8 increase over two years (especially compared to other resorts doing the same damn thing) as being due to RFID.
> 
> Jay ain't going to pay for RFID by day ticket price increases. That is just silly thinking. RFID is going to get paid for by kids and families using the RFID card tied to their credit card to buy for stuff without paying cash out of hand or handing someone a credit card. This type of thing is typical across many channels. It increases purchases when you have a captive audience. It may increase lift ticket sales. So RFID may increase sales but it is the increased sales, not a small price bump (who pays full walk up these days, any ways?) that is going to pay for RFID. At Jay, Stowe, or where else adopts it next.



At what point is RFID paid for with the $5. Those cards don't cost them 5. Kind of like the toll system in MA. It was put in to pay for the construction of the the turnpike but became a cash cow, now they can't get rid of the tolls. Same with income tax put in place to pay for WWI.


----------



## Black Phantom (Oct 18, 2011)

Smellytele said:


> At what point is RFID paid for with the $5. Those cards don't cost them 5. Kind of like the toll system in MA. It was put in to pay for the construction of the the turnpike but became a cash cow, now they can't get rid of the tolls. Same with income tax put in place to pay for WWI.



No one is forcing anyone to ski at Jay. Stay away and do not buy into their scheme to defraud you of your skiing dollars.

Great analogies BTW


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Oct 18, 2011)

*Rfid*

it also amazes me how much complaining about the  5 dollar  ONE TIME charge that goes on re: RFID at Jay.    Granted there is margin on the card itself, that's not where they are trying to pay for the system.  i would guess it's  more of the "burn" or "melt" or whatever they call it of non paying riders that can't beat the electronic gates.  I heard it could be as much at 10-15%.  plus the ability to track the analytics behind season pass usage and day rider usage must be pretty valuable.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2011)

luvinjaycloud said:


> it also amazes me how much complaining about the  5 dollar  ONE TIME charge that goes on re: RFID at Jay.    Granted there is margin on the card itself, that's not where they are trying to pay for the system.  i would guess it's  more of the "burn" or "melt" or whatever they call it of non paying riders that can't beat the electronic gates.  I heard it could be as much at 10-15%.  plus the ability to track the analytics behind season pass usage and day rider usage must be pretty valuable.



Then give the card out for free


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Oct 18, 2011)

The $5  fee keeps people form losing it or throwing it away....think green.  Also if people use the same card it is better for tracking repeat visitors....kinda smaaahhhtt!   think-you're giving back to the snow gods or something.


----------



## billski (Jan 8, 2012)

The RFID system proved quite reliable on Friday.  Only one kicker is that the strike zone is impossible for kids.  The turnstile is in the face of some tykes.  When an adult picks up the kid, it often triggers the adult ticket, causing some confusion.  OK Stowe mgt, go figure that one out.

It appeared that the system somewhat sped up the lines, but I can't say for sure. All the chairs were-walk up, including the 4runner, and the gondi.


The ticket counter lines to get your Evolution card were painfully slow.  It was taking 10-15 mins per person to process.  Of course brand-new (1 week) attendants didn't help the matter.  A floating manager spent more time coaching the poor people than having trained them ahead of time.  I heard wait times were as long as one hour on Saturday.  My wait on Friday was only about 20 minutes. Ahem...


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 8, 2012)

billski said:


> The RFID system proved quite reliable on Friday.  Only one kicker is that the strike zone is impossible for kids.  The turnstile is in the face of some tykes.  When an adult picks up the kid, it often triggers the adult ticket, causing some confusion.  OK Stowe mgt, go figure that one out.
> 
> It appeared that the system somewhat sped up the lines, but I can't say for sure. All the chairs were-walk up, including the 4runner, and the gondi.
> 
> ...



Read that the smart cards that the T uses in MA of course costs $.87 each so that's quite a big profit if that's what the ski resorts are paying.

Geesh as for the evolution card lines. I am planning on coming up with a bus sometime this season so I hope that it just works as smoothly as Jay does it (that's the only way I can afford $teaux and cards are handed over to the trip leader, who then distributes them; groups get a one time use card but do not pay $5 for it); Bill Stenger even does it in fashion and waited for the bus in his Audi.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2012)

billski said:


> The ticket counter lines to get your Evolution card were painfully slow.  It was taking 10-15 mins per person to process.  Of course brand-new (1 week) attendants didn't help the matter.  A floating manager spent more time coaching the poor people than having trained them ahead of time.*  I heard wait times were as long as one hour on Saturday.*  My wait on Friday was* only about 20 minutes.* Ahem...



There was a 1 hour wait for lift tickets?   I've never heard of such a thing there, and I'm shocked it was that crowded.  It was because of the new system?

Also, even 20 minutes is a really, really, really long wait in a lift ticket line at Stowe.  Waits are often walk-up, rarely more than 5 minutes, and even on Presidents weekend and MLK, anything more than 10 minutes isnt good.


----------



## billski (Jan 8, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> There was a 1 hour wait for lift tickets?   I've never heard of such a thing there, and I'm shocked it was that crowded.  It was because of the new system?
> 
> Also, even 20 minutes is a really, really, really long wait in a lift ticket line at Stowe.  Waits are often walk-up, rarely more than 5 minutes, and even on Presidents weekend and MLK, anything more than 10 minutes isnt good.


''

Yes.
Yes.

No.  Everyone was alarmed at how long it took.  It was taking 15 minutes per and there were only two people in line and 3 people at each ticket "window"

Unless they straighten this up quickly, it will turn into a huge disaster.   I'm sure they are "working on it", but I am astonished that they only hired people last week and "trained" them.  They are actually being trained on the job.  Waaaay to much typing going one.  Then they want to link to any other accounts you may have.  All well and good, but you could waste a good hour+ of slope time.

Once you have your card in hand, it becomes easy online.  But if you need to go to a counter to get a ticket (one of our vouchers for example), you could get stuck behind a bunch of people getting their card for the first time.

BTW.  It was max crowded since it was xmas-ny week.


----------



## billski (Jan 8, 2012)

mlkrgr said:


> Read that the smart cards that the T uses in MA of course costs $.87 each so that's quite a big profit if that's what the ski resorts are paying.
> 
> G



You are paying for the administration and ticket processing, right or wrong.  The actual material cost of a card is irrelevant.  You can turn it in at end of day and get your $5 back.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 8, 2012)

billski said:


> You are paying for the administration and ticket processing, right or wrong.  The actual material cost of a card is irrelevant.  You can turn it in at end of day and get your $5 back.



How long does that take?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2012)

billski said:


> '
> Unless they straighten this up quickly, it will turn into a huge disaster.   I'm sure they are "working on it", but I am astonished that* they only hired people last week and "trained" them.  They are actually being trained on the job. * Waaaay to much typing going one.  Then they want to link to any other accounts you may have.  All well and good, but you could waste a good hour+ of slope time.



That doesnt totally surprise me.  Stowe used to train new ticket sales folk each year in November so they could hit the ground running (I imagine they still do).  But they wouldnt actually call you in for work (which is when you really learn) until the season starts getting busy (i.e., they wont pay 6 lift ticket folks when 2 lift ticket folks can handle the volume).  I thought it was kindof penny-wise and pound-foolish even then, and I imagine that's the culture that still exists.



billski said:


> You are paying for the administration and ticket processing, right or wrong.  The actual material cost of a card is irrelevant.  *You can turn it in at end of day and get your $5 back*.



That's great to hear!   Because IMO at most places this new system isnt much more than an ancillary source of revenue.


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 8, 2012)

I was up at Stowe for New Year's. Just waited a minute for my RFID. I guess they've worked out the kinks in the system.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 9, 2012)

mlkrgr said:


> Geesh as for the evolution card lines. I am planning on coming up with a bus sometime this season so I hope that it just works as smoothly as Jay does it (that's the only way I can afford $teaux and cards are handed over to the trip leader, who then distributes them; groups get a one time use card but do not pay $5 for it); Bill Stenger even does it in fashion and waited for the bus in his Audi.



I was up for a bus trip in Decemeber and we had "one time use RFID cards" that they distributed to use.  They were only good for the one day we were there and were cardboard. I would check with your tour operator on how this will work for your group.

which Tour operator are you using?


----------



## billski (Jan 9, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> I was up at Stowe for New Year's. Just waited a minute for my RFID. I guess they've worked out the kinks in the system.



It seems to have gotten worse.  My report is from LAST FRIDAY, January 6th.  Six people in queue, three windows, one at each window for a total of nine people.  i waited about 15 minutes, first in the queue.  Perhaps they resumed training?


----------



## billski (Jan 9, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I was up for a bus trip in Decemeber and we had "one time use RFID cards" that they distributed to use.  They were only good for the one day we were there and were cardboard. I would check with your tour operator on how this will work for your group.
> 
> which Tour operator are you using?



I never use a tour operator.  I brave the systems myself,which has never been a problem for 35 years.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 9, 2012)

billski said:


> I never use a tour operator.  I brave the systems myself,which has never been a problem for 35 years.



Bill my last message was in response to mlkrgr.


----------



## 40Berg (Jan 9, 2012)

billski said:


> It seems to have gotten worse.  My report is from LAST FRIDAY, January 6th.  Six people in queue, three windows, one at each window for a total of nine people.  i waited about 15 minutes, first in the queue.  Perhaps they resumed training?



Bill, I must've just missed you as I also picked up a card on 1/6.  I did, however, have a different experience.

I arrived to a one-person line at the Spruce Lodge at 9:30 a.m. and was out with my RFID card minutes later.  Employee looked up our liftopia reservation, answered a couple questions and we were out within five minutes at most.  Sounds like lines got worse throughout the day.


----------



## billski (Jan 9, 2012)

40Berg said:


> Bill, I must've just missed you as I also picked up a card on 1/6.  I did, however, have a different experience.
> 
> I arrived to a one-person line at the Spruce Lodge at 9:30 a.m. and was out with my RFID card minutes later.  Employee looked up our liftopia reservation, answered a couple questions and we were out within five minutes at most.  Sounds like lines got worse throughout the day.



I was there at 800.  I used a voucher, not liftopia.  I am told that xmas week was bad too.  Sounds like the problems oscillated through the day.


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 9, 2012)

This shouldn't matter but, if I already have an RFID and buy a ticket on liftopia, will Stowe issue me a new RFID or do I just get to use the old one?


----------



## billski (Jan 9, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> This shouldn't matter but, if I already have an RFID and buy a ticket on liftopia, will Stowe issue me a new RFID or do I just get to use the old one?



I think those things are being sorted now.  I would expect that you keep your card and a voucher is in effect "payment.  You now have an "account".  I saw my transactions hit it last night on the web.   Everytime you have any sort of voucher or coupon, you go to the ticket counter, there is no interconnect between ticket brokers and the Stowe System.


I have a Stowe points card, but it is not connected to the rfid card.  Nobody at Stow seemed to know how that link will operate in the future.  It can be confusing, even for someone who has been using the stowe discount programs and vouchers before. This will be a year of growing pains.


----------



## Black Phantom (Jan 9, 2012)

billski said:


> I think those things are being sorted now.  I would expect that you keep your card and a voucher is in effect "payment.  You now have an "account".  I saw my transactions hit it last night on the web.   Everytime you have any sort of voucher or coupon, you go to the ticket counter, there is no interconnect between ticket brokers and the Stowe System.
> 
> 
> I have a Stowe points card, but it is not connected to the rfid card.  Nobody at Stow seemed to know how that link will operate in the future.  It can be confusing, even for someone who has been using the stowe discount programs and vouchers before. This will be a year of growing pains.



At least you got your beloved discount.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2012)

billski said:


> Six people in queue, three windows, one at each window for a total of nine people. * i waited about 15 minutes, first in the queue.*  Perhaps they resumed training?



That doesnt sound like a training issue, that sounds like a technology failure.



40Berg said:


> I arrived to a one-person line at the Spruce Lodge at 9:30 a.m. and was* out with my RFID card minutes later.  Employee looked up our liftopia reservation, answered a couple questions and we were out within five minutes at most*.  Sounds like lines got worse throughout the day.



Other possible factor is the people who run the lift ticket show at Stowe are based at Spruce, so that may help too regarding knowledge/competence with new system.   

Though maybe I'm reading you_ too_ literally, but if you were #1 in line and it took a full 5 minutes, that's horrendous.  The average lift ticket sale takes < 1 minute if the staff is trained, the customer knows what he/she wants, and the technology works.


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 10, 2012)

Looks like Stowe gives a pretty good discount on the one-day reload on the RFID card.


----------



## jerryg (Jan 10, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Looks like Stowe gives a pretty good discount on the one-day reload on the RFID card.



What does Stowe consider a discount?


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 10, 2012)

^ It's $23 off the walk-up rate. I don't know about you but that's a pretty good rate in my book.


----------



## billski (Jan 10, 2012)

Well, it's really not 23.  First, it's not valid on holidays or Saturdays.  The window rate is $88  Rfid card is $69 with a 7 day advance purchase.  So it's $19.  Sorry to be so anal, but the strings attached should be carefully monitored.


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 10, 2012)

^ The walk-up rate for this Sunday and Monday is $92 (Peak). I reloaded my RFID card an hour ago and they are running a special for $69 for a one-day ticket valid on Sunday and on Monday. By my calculations, I am no longer within the 7-day advance purchase window.

Sorry to be anal but I do know how to subtract.


----------



## billski (Jan 10, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> ^ The walk-up rate for this Sunday and Monday is $92 (Peak). I reloaded my RFID card an hour ago and they are running a special for $69 for a one-day ticket valid on Sunday and on Monday. By my calculations, I am no longer within the 7-day advance purchase window.
> 
> Sorry to be anal but I do know how to subtract.



That's a great deal.  Bending the rules.  Good for you!


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 10, 2012)

^ I learned it all from you, man!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2012)

system worked perfect when I was at Stowe yesterday.  Big fan of the RFID technology, even if it costs you and extra $5 to get the card.  Much better experience than having to stop and have someone scan your ticket or pass.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 12, 2012)

I like getting an RFID card instead of a ticket... it's useful for chopping up lines of drugs in the gondolas!!

Juuuuust kidding!

anyway I could care less what form my ticket comes in but f*ck the extra $5 fee... at least its worth it to ski at Jay


----------



## billski (Jan 12, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Evolution Stowe = RFID??
> 
> I haven't used any of these systems yet, but others have.
> 
> Discuss


 
read the whole thread.  It's all there

BTW, it looks to me that the points card will merge with the rfid.   The ticket benis are nearly the same, excluding the in town discounts.  The two programs are disparate right now, with a lot of confusion (at least me) with how they interrelate.


----------



## billski (Jan 12, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> I like getting an RFID card instead of a ticket... it's useful for chopping up lines of drugs in the gondolas!!
> 
> Juuuuust kidding!
> 
> anyway I could care less what form my ticket comes in but f*ck the extra $5 fee... at least its worth it to ski at Jay


 
egads! you're cheaper than me!  You must be a starving college student, or an artist!


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 12, 2012)

billski said:


> egads! you're cheaper than me!  You must be a starving college student, or an artist!



graphic designer, print production stuff.. so yep a not-quite-starving artist 

But I mean ski passes are already like $84 at places now.. it's expensive! My bank account always plummets in the winter just due to skiing.

Liftopia can only help so much


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 12, 2012)

^ Hike for turns. Seriously. You don't even need AT equipment. All you need are snowshoes then go. Last year on the trail, I met a lot of folks who were either in -between jobs or just trying to save a buck (I fell in the latter category). It's a cheap way to get your turns in. Besides, it's a great adventure to head up and go where all the tourists go.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 12, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> ^ Hike for turns. Seriously. You don't even need AT equipment. All you need are snowshoes then go. Last year on the trail, I met a lot of folks who were either in -between jobs or just trying to save a buck (I fell in the latter category). It's a cheap way to get your turns in. Besides, it's a great adventure to head up and go where all the tourists go.



Oh man... that sounds like way too much work! If I am driving up to VT I want to get a lot of runs in.

I can not imagine hiking up 2000+ foot vert in the winter. I have trouble enough breathing in cold weather as is, I think I might die..

Hiking for turns is all good on local hills in western mass but anywhere that's got a lift you can bet I am going to be sitting on it


----------



## snowmonster (Jan 12, 2012)

^ Fair enough.

If the spirit moves you to hike-for-turns, let me know. Sometimes when we're lucky and ambitious, we can make 4 laps in Tux. I'm pretty sure we have bigger beer guts than you.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 12, 2012)

Oh well Tucks is another matter... I might go up there this spring to ski that and Hillmans

just can't imagine hiking under a working chairlift


----------

