# Skiing Technique / Photo Critique Thread



## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

Let's use this thread to post photos of yourself skiing and allow other members the opportunity to critique your form and provide suggestions. There are a lot of members here like JimG. that have an instruction background, or simply many years of experience on the hill. I'm always up for a solid critique so I'll start:

*Bumps at Loon*












Fire away!


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## dmc (Sep 13, 2005)

You need to be more stacked...

A problem i have in the bumps as well..


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> You need to be more stacked...


Explain...


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## dmc (Sep 13, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> dmc said:
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Hips and shoulders over the down hill foot..


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> Hips and shoulders over the down hill foot..


Gotcha. Staying forward is a constant battle for me. I probably improved in that regard more last season than any other though. I had a breakthrough point where it became more comfortable to 'throw' myself over my skis versus back seat driving, especially on the steeper stuff. I still float backwards though as I become tired.


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## smootharc (Sep 13, 2005)

*Back in '75 I told....*

.....Suzi Chapstick she needed to be more stacked....and I got smacked. 

Since then, I've learned to keep my comments to myself so I'm butting out here. But kudos for putting it on the line.  

I'm getting some lessons this year for the first time since getting shaped skis....curious about the differences between who I THINK I am as a skier, and who I actually am.  They can't be all that different, can they ?  Uh-oh....


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

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Yup...keeping your hands held higher and in front of you will help that. Think about standing up tall and avoiding having your butt in the backseat.

My biggest weakness is letting my head drop which also leads to this problem. So, I have to think about keeping my chin up. I go so far as to put my goggles under my chin so that I CAN'T look down.


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## dmc (Sep 13, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> My biggest weakness is letting my head drop which also leads to this problem. So, I have to think about keeping my chin up. I go so far as to put my goggles under my chin so that I CAN'T look down.



Me too...
Bump skiing is so much easier when you look 5 or 6 bumps ahead..
It makes you more proactive and less reactive...


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> It makes you more proactive and less reactive...


Yeah, but in the same sense, you're "reacting" to the terrain as you ski it, based on the mental snapshot you took 4 turns before. I love that part of skiing bumps; it's as much mental as it is physical.


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## Brettski (Sep 13, 2005)

5 or 6?

I was told 3....

1: the poll plant for right in front of you
2: Get the other poll ready to reach for the next one, and
3: Getting enough time to decide where to go when you're finished with #1.

I couldn't do 6


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## dmc (Sep 13, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

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Difference is.. 
Your reacting to something you've seen...  And not "Stevie Wonder" skiing...

Understanding where the line is going is important...
Helps you setup you turns in advance...


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2005)

Brettski said:
			
		

> 5 or 6?
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> I was told 3....
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Yes you can...pro bumpers focus on a point at the BOTTOM of the run and normally see roughly 10 bumps in advance. 

This really isn't a matter of numbers, it's the physical reality of keeping your chin up and looking down the fall line, not looking down at your tips.

So, think of it that way instead.


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## Sky (Sep 13, 2005)

*Re: Back in '75 I told....*



			
				smootharc said:
			
		

> I'm getting some lessons this year for the first time since getting shaped skis....curious about the differences between who I THINK I am as a skier, and who I actually am.  They can't be all that different, can they ?  Uh-oh....



*applause*

I didn't take a lesson last year for the first time in three years.  Wachusett makes it very simple to take lessons.  I buy a book of Group Lessons, 5 lessons for $59.  No one at level 6 or higher (of 9 levels?) takes group lessons...so I get private lessons for a fraction of the price.  I ALWAYS tip the instructor.  I've had instructors hang with me after the lesson just to free ski a bit.  What a confidence builder/ego trip.

Also...I bought and read (constantly re-read) "The All Mountain Skier" for tips on how to improve.  Great tips, excellent drills to practice...a cheap way to enhance your understanding of the sport.

Too true about "what we think vs what we are".

Greg...gutsy move posting photos of your skiing.  *more applause*  Although this forum is certainly NOT the Adirondacks forum. *smirk*  I'd like to see video of my skiing.  Haven't won Megabucks yet to get that critique.


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## Brettski (Sep 13, 2005)

That reminds me....I gotta fire up the old Sony 8mm


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

Good thread idea Greg, if I'm daring enough I'll post a pic or two of me, maybe even some video, a little later...


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## tree_skier (Sep 13, 2005)

you are too compact in the trough where you should be tall.

Think of a string from the top of the run to the bottom at head height.  You want your head to be at string level the entire run.  Thus extend into the trough and compact coming up the bump.

This is one area that most strugle with.


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## skibum1321 (Sep 13, 2005)

Going with what tree skier said, you can't absorb the bumps as well unless you straighten up in the troughs. Try to keep your upper body quiet except for your poles, which need to be more in front of you. I see your one pole dropping back. It looks like you're trying to turn too much rather than absorb the bumps.


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

Let me preface this by saying that I know my form sucks, try not to be too harsh 

I couldn't find too many action shots of me, I think I ski better than these two shots indicate, but probably not...




(Click for a larger version)




(Click for a larger version)

And here is a short video so you can really rip me apart...

http://bvibert.com/gallery/albums/Loon041005/P4100059.mov


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## noski (Sep 13, 2005)

The only pic I have of me with skis is riding down (yes, down) the lift. If you think skiing takes guts, let me tell you that you have to be really secure in yourself as a person to do that!


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Let me preface this by saying that I know my form sucks, try not to be too harsh


Not at all. I recall from skiing with you that you are actually very graceful. I'll let the "pros" reply based on the pics posted above though...

One pic that truly illustrates your gracefulness is this one which you seemed to have inadvertantly left out: 





In fact, that display of super-human skill and incredible technique was shot shortly after the second pic you posted above. I still don't think that move could ever be replicated again... :beer:


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## hammer (Sep 13, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> One pic that truly illustrates your gracefulness is this one which you seemed to have inadvertantly left out:


Was that picture taken with a digital camera?  The timing was just right...


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Let me preface this by saying that I know my form sucks, try not to be too harsh
> 
> I couldn't find too many action shots of me, I think I ski better than these two shots indicate, but probably not...
> 
> ...



1) Unlock your feet a bit. You ski like someone from the 60's with that "feet locked together" stance. Modern ski technology is better taken advantage of with a more athletic stance, feet a little less than shoulder width apart. This will make you a more 2 footed skier.

2) Keep your hands up and in front of you, elbows up and away from your torso. Spread those wings a bit.
This will open up your hips alot more and will unlock the power stored in your center (abdomen).

Brian, your form is far from hopeless and is actually pretty good. Just some minor tweaks that will result in big gains.


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

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Yes it was digital, I am ever so grateful that Greg had such great timing :roll: 

Greg, I almost posted that one too, but I figured I'd let you embarrass me...


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> 1) Unlock your feet a bit. You ski like someone from the 60's with that "feet locked together" stance.


Thanks Jim, thats something that I was trying to work on last season.  I think it comes from watching what I considered good skiers when I was a kid learning to ski.  I always aspired to ski like them, now I'm trying to break the habit.



> 2) Keep your hands up and in front of you, elbows up and away from your torso. Spread those wings a bit.
> This will open up your hips alot more and will unlock the power stored in your center (abdomen).


I'm aware that I drop my hands and have been trying to recitfy it, but I never heard or thought about keeping the elbows up and away.  I'll have to try and watch out for that this season.



> Brian, your form is far from hopeless and is actually pretty good. Just some minor tweaks that will result in big gains.


Thanks, that makes me feel better.  I hope I get to take some lessons again this year and/or ski with some more knowlegable people so I can continue to get better


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> but I never heard or thought about keeping the elbows up and away.  I'll have to try and watch out for that this season.


Here's a pic of riverc0il from that same day, Brian:





He looks to be applying the technique with his elbows that JimG. is describing. RC really is a pleasure to watch ski...


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

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Here's another pic during that same "photo shoot" of riverc0il. How's this for timing:

*"Air riverc0il"*




Despite the crappy conditions, that sure was a fun day. Okay, back to critiquing Brian...


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> Here's a pic of riverc0il from that same day, Brian:
> <snip>
> He looks to be applying the technique with his elbows that JimG. is describing. RC really is a pleasure to watch ski...



Thanks Greg, I guess I never really thought about it.  RC sure can make those skis work, and he looks good doing it too!



> Despite the crappy conditions, that sure was a fun day.


Sure was!


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. 

Good photo Greg; nice demo Steve.


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

Another 'action' shot, don't know if it tells anyone anything, but it looks like my feet are a little further apart at least


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## Brettski (Sep 13, 2005)

Practice bump runs...that'll make you spread your wings...

The kids were complaining about the steep stuff at Jay last year...after taking them down mogul runs a few time...they were ripping up the corduroy...

Looks like air coils right hand is drifting bacl in the air there...hope he made the landing...

I love that trail at Loon...man you just cranck it up and *launch*...nice rolling terrain...it's defefinetly a begginer intermediate run, so you got watch out for people.  One good thing is there are no blindspots the whole way

What the name of that trail again?


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Another 'action' shot, don't know if it tells anyone anything, but it looks like my feet are a little further apart at least



It tells me you need to keep your hands up and your elbows out; the space between your feet looks like a result of your downhill ski skidding out. 

You look a little bit uncomfortable there.


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## bvibert (Sep 13, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> It tells me you need to keep your hands up and your elbows out; the space between your feet looks like a result of your downhill ski skidding out.
> 
> You look a little bit uncomfortable there.



I think you're right about the feet being apart, IIRC I stumbled just a bit right before that.  I probably was a little uncomfortable if I was trying to recover from a stumble.  That picture was taken on my last run of the year in some pretty heavy corn (which I don't ski well in).  I remember my legs were shot before I even started that day from trying to follow Steve around Cannon the day before, and we didn't even hit any hard stuff... :roll:

Thanks for your input Jim!

Anyone else daring enough to have their pics critiqued?


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## Brettski (Sep 13, 2005)

Got a lot of gear on for corn snow...also when it gets to wet and heavy, go ski in the shade...see it over there in the right of the picture...


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## riverc0il (Sep 13, 2005)

in reference to greg's pictures on page one of this thread:

it may just be the camera angle, but in the second picture you seem to be pole planting with your hand turned out a bit to the side.  i always try to reach for the next bumps with my pole as straight as possible (i.e. hand driving down the hill towards the next bump, reaching out for the bump, then bringing it to me, etc.).  my poles kinda go all over the place depending upon my line but i always try reaching forward for the next plant.  then again, it could just be a bad camera angle but that's something that stood out.  third pic looks pretty sweet!


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## riverc0il (Sep 13, 2005)

> Looks like air coils right hand is drifting bacl in the air there...hope he made the landing...


the small image makes it look a little deceiving, both arms are definitely out in front.  that landing was definitely stuck.

trailboss was showing some good technique at the beast AZ day:
http://www.alpinezone.com/albums/album40/Dsc05913.jpg
http://www.alpinezone.com/albums/album40/Dsc05948.jpg

greg did an amazing job of capturing my favorite picture taken of me in action that day as well.  the angulation is a bit exagerated, but i always feel a lot of power in control when those legs kick out just right, really able to hit the sweet spot on a ski and then it's just all ahhhhhh's:
http://www.alpinezone.com/albums/album40/Dsc05935.jpg

this thread is quickly turning into a disection of the beast AZ day, lol.


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## skibum1321 (Sep 13, 2005)

http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Here's a pic of me in the woods at Smuggs. I couldn't get the embedded image to work and I figured the big pic would be better anyway. Fire away...


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## Greg (Sep 13, 2005)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> > Looks like air coils right hand is drifting bacl in the air there...hope he made the landing...
> 
> 
> the small image makes it look a little deceiving, both arms are definitely out in front.  that landing was definitely stuck.


It was and that thumbnail is clickable...


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## tree_skier (Sep 14, 2005)

After watching the video the biggest thing is turn shape.  Your turn shape is a J it needs to be more rounded.  To do this you need to get your feet apart a little more but more important to move your hips over and downhill,of your feet, at the start of the turn.  That is now happening at the midpoint or later.




			
				bvibert said:
			
		

> Let me preface this by saying that I know my form sucks, try not to be too harsh
> 
> I couldn't find too many action shots of me, I think I ski better than these two shots indicate, but probably not...
> 
> ...


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## dmc (Sep 14, 2005)

So how about this PIC of me from 1989...??  :lol: 






I ski a LOT differently now...
Those were wham, bam, slam days


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## Greg (Sep 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> So how about this PIC of me from 1989...??  :lol:
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I'm not sure how you got your legs to bend that way...  :lol: You look to be having fun though. 8)


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## JimG. (Sep 14, 2005)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
> 
> Here's a pic of me in the woods at Smuggs. I couldn't get the embedded image to work and I figured the big pic would be better anyway. Fire away...



Not much to pick on there dude...looks sweet.

The only minor thing I'd say is to keep that left hand away from your torso a bit, but that's being pretty picky.


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## JimG. (Sep 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> So how about this PIC of me from 1989...??  :lol:
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Pic of the week!


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## Greg (Sep 14, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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I bet D never thought that he'd be sharing that pic with folks from all over the Northeast when it was taken.


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## JimG. (Sep 14, 2005)

Well, it's only fair I give everyone a chance to tear my form apart too:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php 

Fire away!


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## dmc (Sep 14, 2005)

One more...


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## Brettski (Sep 14, 2005)

I just sitting here trying to figure out which way the yard sale ended up.

Good upper body though.

Did you take out he camera person?


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## dmc (Sep 14, 2005)

Brettski said:
			
		

> I just sitting here trying to figure out which way the yard sale ended up.
> 
> Good upper body though.
> 
> Did you take out he camera person?



To get a good shot in the bumps - you gotta be close..
No cameramen were hurt in the taking of that photo...
I fact they used to say "COME RIGHT AT ME" and smile!


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## Greg (Sep 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> One more...


I don't know about the cross, but them's is some funky duds...


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## dmc (Sep 14, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> I don't know about the cross, but them's is some funky duds...



Back in the day we'd sew patches onto our knees...  It looked cool in the bumps...

I was a hardcore bumper before my back started to hurt and i switched to snowboarding...


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## Greg (Sep 14, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Well, it's only fair I give everyone a chance to tear my form apart too:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
> 
> Fire away!


I don't think that pic does you any justice. I believe that was one of the last runs down Claire's that day and I think you were showing some fatigue.


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## JimG. (Sep 14, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> I don't think that pic does you any justice. I believe that was one of the last runs down Claire's that day and I think you were showing some fatigue.



A little tired, funky hardpack/icy/loose snow conditions.

It's why I chose that specific shot...those are the things that bring out one's deficiencies. Not keeping my chin up enough so I'm bending at the waist and getting a bit in the backseat.

Interestingly, here's another shot from the last run of the day:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

That's a little better.


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## bvibert (Sep 14, 2005)

tree_skier said:
			
		

> After watching the video the biggest thing is turn shape.  Your turn shape is a J it needs to be more rounded.  To do this you need to get your feet apart a little more but more important to move your hips over and downhill,of your feet, at the start of the turn.  That is now happening at the midpoint or later.



Thanks, looking back at the video I think I know what you mean.  I'll be working on this stuff this upcoming season for sure!


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## awf170 (Sep 14, 2005)

wow, i feel like I'm at Epic ski with this thread.  I would submit a pic of myself skiing if I had one.  I never have actually thought about my technique skiing, and havent taking a lesson in like 5 years, so yes i am probably one ugly skier, but I am having fun


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 14, 2005)

Go at it.
















And my wife..


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Sep 15, 2005)

"Back in the day we'd sew patches onto our knees...  It looked cool in the bumps..."

that still gets done today. It still looks cool. 

"I was a hardcore bumper before my back started to hurt and i switched to snowboarding..."

That seems to be the M.O. of bump skiers. Of the people I ski bumps with, almost all of them have a board they say they will switch to when they cant take the pain anymore.  We all still want to be on the snow but could never be content on the flat stuff anymore. 

nice pics.


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## dmc (Sep 15, 2005)

WICKEDBUMPER said:
			
		

> "I was a hardcore bumper before my back started to hurt and i switched to snowboarding..."
> 
> That seems to be the M.O. of bump skiers. Of the people I ski bumps with, almost all of them have a board they say they will switch to when they cant take the pain anymore.  We all still want to be on the snow but could never be content on the flat stuff anymore.
> 
> nice pics.



Thanks.
Bump skiing technique has change considerably since the early 90's...  I still go out and ski bumps a couple times a year but now I try and incorporate more of the modern stuff...  Keeps me from slamming from bump to bump...
It's less about slamming and more about thinking now... At least for me...


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## Brettski (Sep 15, 2005)

Changed?  Nobody told me.

What changed?


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Sep 15, 2005)

"Bump skiing technique has change considerably since the early 90's"
-100% totally agreed.  different animal now.  bashing seems to be a thing of the past. which is a good thing since I'm not as young as I used to be and stuff hurts at the end of the day now.

I have an old Busiweiser pro mogul tour event from Killington on video from the late 80s/early 90s-it doesnt even look like mogul skiing anymore. I bust it out once in a while and get a good laugh out of it.


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## dmc (Sep 15, 2005)

Brettski said:
			
		

> Changed?  Nobody told me.
> 
> What changed?



The way you keep your skis on the ground and don't fly from bump to bump(slamming)...
Just pressing/keeping my tips down over the back of the bump has saved my back..


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## JimG. (Sep 15, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> The way you keep your skis on the ground and don't fly from bump to bump(slamming)...
> Just pressing/keeping my tips down over the back of the bump has saved my back..



Word bro...knees too.


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## dmc (Sep 15, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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Then - I was totally in the back seat - slamming - hanging on for dear life..

Now - I concentrate more on staying upright - while feeling that pressure from my boots on the front of my calves...


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## JimG. (Sep 15, 2005)

ALLSKIING said:
			
		

> Go at it.
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First pic looks like a case of "backseat powderitis"; somebody once told you that sitting back helps you ski powder better. Stay tall and try to keep your body parts in the neutral zone between your toe and heel pieces. Try to not sit back, but don't exaagerate your forward stance either.

2nd pic looks pretty good. Decent stance and hip angles. Try to keep your elbows up and away from your torso.

Are you really gonna show your wife these comments? She looks marvelous, simply MAHHHHVELOUS! There is one small tweak that will rock her ski world...tell her to try to keep her inside hand up a bit more to match the pitch of the slope she's on.


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## JimG. (Sep 15, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> Then - I was totally in the back seat - slamming - hanging on for dear life..
> 
> Now - I concentrate more on staying upright - while feeling that pressure from my boots on the front of my calves...



Staying tall and feeling the tongue of the boot on the shin is so key...I still work on keeping my chin up and resisting the urge to reach out too far with my next pole touch.


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## bvibert (Sep 16, 2005)

No one else wants to be critiqued?

I always welcome any advice that might make me ski better, especially when I get it for free!


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 16, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

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She told me to put up a pic of her..But only one I thought was good :lol: .


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## NHpowderhound (Sep 18, 2005)

Alright guys, lemme have it! Never had a lesson.
http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
((*
*))NHPH


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2005)

NHpowderhound said:
			
		

> Alright guys, lemme have it! Never had a lesson.
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
> ((*
> *))NHPH



Lookin' good NHPH. Not much to pick on. You might keep your hands a bit higher and more forward; your inside hand tends to drop, keep it up higher and try to keep your hands matching the pitch of the slope.


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## tree_skier (Sep 19, 2005)

Center of balance.  Your weight needs to be more forward.  That is the major issue.




			
				NHpowderhound said:
			
		

> Alright guys, lemme have it! Never had a lesson.
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
> ((*
> *))NHPH


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## NHpowderhound (Sep 19, 2005)

JimG. wrote





> Lookin' good NHPH. Not much to pick on. You might keep your hands a bit higher and more forward; your inside hand tends to drop, keep it up higher and try to keep your hands matching the pitch of the slope.


Hand placment is key. Whenever I give advice to novice and intermediate skiers I tell them to place their hands in front of them like they are holding on to a pair of beautiful breasts. That's easy enough for most guys to remember. :wink:  
I think most people dont use thier wrist straps properly and that is a simple thing that can help you tremendously. By putting your hand up through the loop and then coming down so the strap is around the back of the wrist,but under the palm so it cradles the thumb, will make it so all you really need to do is gently squeeze the handgrip and the pole will flick effortlessly to and fro. It will help in keeping the upper body more quiet and make you stop swinging your arms resulting in better balance and less fatigue. On the other hand I rarely wear my wriststraps when skiing in the woods for fear of my arms getting ripped off.
tree_skier wrote 





> Center of balance. Your weight needs to be more forward. That is the major issue.


And I thought my obsessive nose picking was my major issue! Cool! :lol: 
Thanks guys!
((*
*))NHPH


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2005)

NHpowderhound said:
			
		

> JimG. wrote
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Keeping hands up/keeping center of mass forward are so inter-related that it's really the same issue. 

When I'm teaching, I've learned to present drills that promote good body position without telling my students exactly what I'm trying to get them to do. Once they get the right feel, they do what they need to do naturally.

I got tired of telling students to lean or move their mass forward and seeing things that ranged from head way forward/butt way back all the way to a total bow. The hands are easier for a student to control and the center of mass tends to follow what the hands are doing.


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## dmc (Sep 19, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> I got tired of telling students to lean or move their mass forward and seeing things that ranged from head way forward/butt way back all the way to a total bow.



Don't S*** your turns..

F*** your turns...

 :wink:


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## riverc0il (Sep 19, 2005)

> I think most people dont use thier wrist straps properly and that is a simple thing that can help you tremendously.


right on brotha!  as NHPH very articulately described, when you have your poles strapped on right and of the right weight and legnth, they almost flick themselves naturally and help you to drive the hands down the hill.  part of the whole reaching thing when i am in the bumps is a very natural flick and reach motion.


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## RISkier (Sep 19, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> NHpowderhound said:
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I'm not a strong skier but something that really seemed to help me was an instructor who told me to reach and move my body where I want to go.  When I get on ice or in bumps I seem to not want to go anywhere and get in the back seat, but that thought really helped me improve last year.  I need so much more mileage.


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## JimG. (Sep 20, 2005)

RISkier said:
			
		

> I'm not a strong skier but something that really seemed to help me was an instructor who told me to reach and move my body where I want to go.  When I get on ice or in bumps I seem to not want to go anywhere and get in the back seat, but that thought really helped me improve last year.  I need so much more mileage.



Another way to put it. You've got to watch out for too much reach, but the idea that you want to keep your body moving in the direction you want to go (down the hill in most cases) is key. Once you're good at that you will find your skiing will become effortless and fluid.

Mileage rules!


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## awf170 (Feb 1, 2006)

First: I know the quality is terrible, but you must be able to see something.
Second: Cut me some slack. I'm on skis with a 89mm waist...
http://media.putfile.com/P101000617


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## jps332 (Feb 1, 2006)

for some reason when I ski,(I never noticed until pointed out by an instructor(required lessons)) but I usually move around my upper body when I'm skiing turns like I will twist my shoulders and stuff. It doesn't happen always but I can catch myself doing it. Seems like I can't stop it


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## eatskisleep (Feb 1, 2006)

jps332 said:
			
		

> for some reason when I ski,(I never noticed until pointed out by an instructor(required lessons)) but I usually move around my upper body when I'm skiing turns like I will twist my shoulders and stuff. It doesn't happen always but I can catch myself doing it. Seems like I can't stop it


It sounds like you are dropping your inside solder when you turn. Sometimes trying to hold your hands more out front seems to help this problem.


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## bvibert (Feb 2, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> First: I know the quality is terrible, but you must be able to see something.
> Second: Cut me some slack. I'm on skis with a 89mm waist...
> http://media.putfile.com/P101000617



Maybe its just me, but I can't see anything when I click on the link....


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## JD (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's me letting my hand drop back and down..
*Click* 
Only a dozen or so days on tele and leathers..


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## JimG. (Feb 2, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> First: I know the quality is terrible, but you must be able to see something.
> Second: Cut me some slack. I'm on skis with a 89mm waist...
> http://media.putfile.com/P101000617



Austin, that looks pretty smooth and fluid. Like most folks, watch out for the lazy hands dropping down around your waist. 

Keep your hands up and in front and your elbows away from your torso.


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## JimG. (Feb 2, 2006)

jps332 said:
			
		

> for some reason when I ski,(I never noticed until pointed out by an instructor(required lessons)) but I usually move around my upper body when I'm skiing turns like I will twist my shoulders and stuff. It doesn't happen always but I can catch myself doing it. Seems like I can't stop it



Twisting your upper body is a common error. Try this:

Holding your poles straight up and down with your hands in the MIDDLE of the poles, keep your hands up and in front of you, about shoulder width apart.

The poles will now make a "frame" for the terrain ahead. Look down the slope and pick an object like a tree that is a good distance from you. Now frame that tree with your poles and keep that tree in the middle of the frame. Now ski.

Don't let that tree move out of the middle of your frame. This drill will effectively immobilize your upper body and force you to move your legs underneath you as you turn creating a sense of upper/lower body separation. Practice.


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## JimG. (Feb 2, 2006)

JD said:
			
		

> Here's me letting my hand drop back and down..
> *Click*
> Only a dozen or so days on tele and leathers..



Can't view the vid, but I would imagine that keeping hands up and in front of you must be alot tougher on tele gear.


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## JimG. (Feb 2, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> JD said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, just saw the pic...I think you're being pretty hard on yourself, it doesn't look like your hand is behind you; the inside hand is a little low, something I'm always aware of and correcting in my own skiing.

So, match the pitch of the slope and move that inside hand up a little and you're gold.


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## NYDrew (Feb 2, 2006)

JD, 
I just started tele, so take my comments with a grain of salt.  I think you are supposed to square your upper body more with the fall line.  That will help you get that back arm more foward.

I dont know if this is right, its just from my observation of more advanced free heelers and what I have found feels more technical for myself.


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## redalienx11 (Feb 2, 2006)

> I think you are supposed to square your upper body more with the fall line. That will help you get that back arm more foward.



Thats exactly right. 

Telemarking requires a more dramatic "twist" in the upperbody than alpine. 

Allen & Mike Telemark Tips has some great tips for this. The one that I connected with was sayig to visualize keeping both your hands on a control panel down the hill.


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## JD (Feb 2, 2006)

Yup.  I KNOW this.  I don't always DO this.


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## NYDrew (Feb 2, 2006)

Well, as a beginner telemarker (its real funny how by being an alpine instructor, i can kinda interpret things to teach teli but not do it) its good to know I'm not creating any bad habits which would need to be killed at a higher level.


The video instructor at telemark tips makes me laugh.  He needs to work on that.  He is also teaching wedge-edge-tele which I find kinda useless being I skipped that part by being an expert alpine.  I wish he had drills for alpine skiier to discover tele turns.


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## ckofer (Feb 2, 2006)

Take a look at the shots of a good extreme skiers. Note his or her hand and upper body position. Commit that to memory.

Now watch someone who seems to be struggling down the hill. Sometimes you will catch them with hand which corresponds to the down hill ski (left turn, right hand) actually crossing over the skis and on the uphill side of things while the legs are traversing.

Now lets say this is how the person skis. To make the right-hand turn and continue with this style, the upper body must rotate about 270 degrees. Alternately, the expert skier seems to have two rails under his or her armpits that go straight down the hill and all the turning takes place near the belly button.

A good practice is to find a run near a lift and keep your hands pointed to the base station (not unlike navigating a boat toward a point on the shore). You will quickly become aware how often you let your hands fall to a bad place. This may not perfect your approach but quickly you should much less thrashing in your turns.


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## NYDrew (Feb 2, 2006)

Wow, chris , that is exactly what I did when I first had trouble keeping my hands downhill.  I wish we had better snow for tele.  I find Ice very difficult to learn on...i don't even bother strapping them on.

How do you get both feet flexed without loosing your balance...I find myself with a stiff downhill leg very often.


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## awf170 (Feb 2, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> awf170 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks jimG! Anyone else got something to say.


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## kbroderick (Feb 3, 2006)

Lots of comments about hands; I'll chip in a couple of suggestions on that regard:

1. If your elbows and/or arms are in too much of a closed position, sometimes thinking about opening your hands can help; try standing still with your arms open _and_ hands open like you're holding a giant beachball in front of you.  Or, to put it another way, try opening the palms of your hands should be open in your direction of travel.

2. Although upper-lower body separation is important, modern alpine technique suggests that the torso should generally be facing the direction of travel; as such, drills that involve keeping the body in the same direction for an entire run need to be done with care (your body may end up pointing down the hill all the time if you're making short-swing turns and that's the general direction of travel, but you don't want to be getting all twisted up in medium or large-radius turns).  It's certainly a worthwhile drill to accentuate that upper/lower body separation during larger turns, but you'll spend much of your time in a rather countered position that is not a modern skiing stance.

The drill I've found most useful since I stopped racing (and, as such, stopped getting coached) is ye olde one-ski run.  The key aspects of the drill are (a) ski on one ski, (b) leave the other ski on but hold it off the snow, and (c) remember to stay forward while doing so.  It's virtually impossible to lean in when turning the "wrong" direction, and it's physically impossible to develop too much knee angulation (which is a generally deprecated technique anyhow); when you can ski arc-to-arc on an entire, moderate-pitch run comfortably on one ski, try it without your poles.  If that seems too easy, try with your boots unbuckled.  Using only one ski tends to bring out any latent issues, and developing the ability to ski well on one foot can help you find your balance on two feet (including stance adjustments and the like).


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## awf170 (Dec 16, 2006)

Bump...

Here is a vid of me at Wawa a few days ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3BdFCTRX_g

The one problem I see right now is my upper body moves too much, but I bet there are more.


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## Zand (Dec 16, 2006)

I don't have any of me... but Austin's video kind of looks like my turns... I just don't lean forward enough though.


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## 2knees (Dec 16, 2006)

Dont have any advice but you do look real smooth.  Nicely done.


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## riverc0il (Dec 16, 2006)

whoa! whole lot of cussing in that vid austin, lol! :lol: maybe it is visual deception since you are so damn skinny and tall, but one thing i have noticed while skiing with you is it seems like you could have slightly more knee bend in your posture which may help with any upper body movement. in that video, your body seems near vertical in your transition between your turns with only slight knee bend during the turn, just enough to initiate the edge. knee bend gives you shock absorbers and helps keep the movement below the waist. one tip that always stuck with me is toe, knee, and nose alignment on a vertical plane, which was one of three technique changes that completely changed my skill level when i first started taking my skiing seriously.


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## kbroderick (Dec 16, 2006)

Austin: it looks like your body is never coming forward--it's always behind the plane Steve talked about (well, except that your nose isn't part of the plane--it's more like the plane described by a perpendicular line that intersects the skis at the toes).  It's tough to tell from that video (not the world's highest quality), but I don't see any real loading of the ski, and I think that's at least part of the reason you bobbled on the first turn in the video.  If you can manage to be more dynamic with your center of mass through the turn and progressively load the ski into the turn, you'll probably get a better response out of your skis (and if the bobble is caused by what I think it is--not enough progressive loading of the front of the ski during turn initiation--you'll take care of that, too).

Of course, trying to judge technique from a few seconds of nighttime video as compressed by YouTube probably isn't the most effective way to do things.


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## awf170 (Dec 16, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> whoa! whole lot of cussing in that vid austin, lol! :lol: maybe it is visual deception since you are so damn skinny and tall, but one thing i have noticed while skiing with you is it seems like you could have slightly more knee bend in your posture which may help with any upper body movement. in that video, your body seems near vertical in your transition between your turns with only slight knee bend during the turn, just enough to initiate the edge. knee bend gives you shock absorbers and helps keep the movement below the waist. one tip that always stuck with me is toe, knee, and nose alignment on a vertical plane, which was one of three technique changes that completely changed my skill level when i first started taking my skiing seriously.



Yeah, I agree about the knee bend.  Basically since my last three days skiing I have never leaned forward skiing before.  Seriously until sunapee last week I have never even flexed my boot forward.  I am improving a lot but it still feels very wierd.  After looking at some frame grabs it does look like my toes, knees, and nose is in line perfectly right when I initiate the turn.  The problem is that I don't evern stay like that for more than a milli-second.  Basically my turns aren't connected in anyway, at all.

On a side note:  Even though it feels wierd right now I really think I need to use the more forward flex notch on my boots.


Edit:  Hah, I didn't even notice the cursing before.  Freakin' snowboarders!


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## JD (Dec 16, 2006)

Use your pole plants.  Reach for your next turn.  It will help you lean forward.
$.02


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## mattchuck2 (Dec 17, 2006)

You're a body bobber and a tail slider . . . . plus you keep your skis too close together.
This kind of thing probably works well in the bumps for you, but it looks weird on groomed stuff.  

kbroderick is right, you need a more progressive edge throughout the turn, instead of a hard edge jab at the bottom of the turn.  Open your stance a little and focus on clearing the inside ski first, either by moving your center of mass and freeing that leg to turn, or by using rotary skills to steer the thing around.

The good news is that a TON of people on the mountain have this problem, so you're not alone.  I used to ski like this too, and a little bit of it still creeps back if I'm not careful.


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## Skier75 (Dec 17, 2006)

dmc said:


> So how about this PIC of me from 1989...??  :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, why can't I open this picture???


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## jack97 (Dec 17, 2006)

Ditto on what everyone said.



mattchuck2 said:


> You're a body bobber and a tail slider . . . . plus you keep your skis too close together.



Yours tails are washing out because you don’t have the edge engaged at the start of the turn. If you bend the knees and put shin pressure on the tongue of the boot, you will the load the front of the ski. By doing this, the tip of the ski engages the snow first; the rest of the ski will lock in. 

Body going up and down; the vid shows the knees are almost locked straight when you go up at the end/start of the turn, puts you out of position to load the front of the skis.   Note, some skiing methods (or styles) advocate this while most racers type would say its wasted energy going up and down. However, they all have the knee bent with some amount of shin pressure/contact.


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## awf170 (Dec 17, 2006)

jack97 said:


> Ditto on what everyone said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





mattchuck2 said:


> You're a body bobber and a tail slider . . . . plus you keep your skis too close together.
> This kind of thing probably works well in the bumps for you, but it looks weird on groomed stuff.
> 
> kbroderick is right, you need a more progressive edge throughout the turn, instead of a hard edge jab at the bottom of the turn.  Open your stance a little and focus on clearing the inside ski first, either by moving your center of mass and freeing that leg to turn, or by using rotary skills to steer the thing around.
> ...





JD said:


> Use your pole plants.  Reach for your next turn.  It will help you lean forward.
> $.02





kbroderick said:


> Austin: it looks like your body is never coming forward--it's always behind the plane Steve talked about (well, except that your nose isn't part of the plane--it's more like the plane described by a perpendicular line that intersects the skis at the toes).  It's tough to tell from that video (not the world's highest quality), but I don't see any real loading of the ski, and I think that's at least part of the reason you bobbled on the first turn in the video.  If you can manage to be more dynamic with your center of mass through the turn and progressively load the ski into the turn, you'll probably get a better response out of your skis (and if the bobble is caused by what I think it is--not enough progressive loading of the front of the ski during turn initiation--you'll take care of that, too).
> 
> Of course, trying to judge technique from a few seconds of nighttime video as compressed by YouTube probably isn't the most effective way to do things.



Thanks for the info guys.  I'll defiantly have a lot to work on tonight.

Also for consideration is that I don't really care about groomed trail skiing.  I practiced skiing on groomed terrian because there was nothing else available.  I want to get better at crud, powder, moguls, and glades so take into consideration that I'm looking for technique that will help me with that even if it may not look "right" on groomers.

Also, about the tail wash:  If I don't wash the tail of my ski my turns just feel too wide for Wachusett.  I'm on skis with a 24m turn radius which can't help.  I really need to get my other skis mounted.  Also if you're skiing glades/moguls don't you want tail wash?


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## riverc0il (Dec 17, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Also for consideration is that I don't really care about groomed trail skiing.  I practiced skiing on groomed terrian because there was nothing else available.  I want to get better at crud, powder, moguls, and glades so take into consideration that I'm looking for technique that will help me with that even if it may not look "right" on groomers.


i think you should look at it from another perspective... you should try to get technique improvements down on the groomers first. fundamental ski technique is the same regardless of what type of snow you are skiing on. small adjustments are required for various types of snow conditions but the basic set of skills employed are much the same. the recommendations made above from everyone will help you out on every type of terrain and can easily be practiced on groomers.



awf170 said:


> Also, about the tail wash:  If I don't wash the tail of my ski my turns just feel too wide for Wachusett.  I'm on skis with a 24m turn radius which can't help.  I really need to get my other skis mounted.  Also if you're skiing glades/moguls don't you want tail wash?


i have the same skis you do if you are on the intuitiv bigs... you can still make very tight turns on those skis even with a 24m radius. obviously, it is not that ski's specialty. radius is a really over rated stat, imo. the lack of side cut definitely doesn't help, but it doesn't have anything to do with the technical aspect of making a turn.


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## Greg (Dec 17, 2006)

Some good advice here. Actually, we ski groomers somewhat similarly. Maybe it's a tall, skinny guy-thing. One thing you can work on and is something I'm trying to do is to finish your turn more completely. I do the same thing, i.e. initiate the turn and then about half way through, sort of coast into the next turn as opposed to really driving through the end of the turn on edge. I particularly have this problem on hard pack and I need to learn to trust my edges more instead of letting the tail wash out. I guess I normally let the natural rebound of the ski bring me into the next turn, but keeping the gas on during that rebound really makes the transition more fluid. I'm concentrating on this a lot of the groomers as it's essentially a very similar aspect as extending when skiing bumps. Good hand position. As was mentioned, try to do some pole plants. Quiet down that upper body and get rid of the bob. It seems like your doing that to initiate a turn, but if you were following through the end of your previous turn you probably wouldn't need to do that. Finally, take all my advice with a grain of salt as it's coming from a non-expert recreational skier with no instructor background.


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## kbroderick (Dec 17, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Thanks for the info guys.  I'll defiantly have a lot to work on tonight.
> 
> Also for consideration is that I don't really care about groomed trail skiing.  I practiced skiing on groomed terrian because there was nothing else available.  I want to get better at crud, powder, moguls, and glades so take into consideration that I'm looking for technique that will help me with that even if it may not look "right" on groomers.



If you can learn to drive your skis instead of riding them, your off-piste skiing will benefit a lot (and especially in crud or when making larger turns through powder and glades).  If you can progressively load the skis and drive them around the turn, you can blast through crud, windslab, and various other sorts of snow condition that frequently occur off the groomed (especially when you combine good technique with appropriate skis).



awf170 said:


> Also, about the tail wash:  If I don't wash the tail of my ski my turns just feel too wide for Wachusett.  I'm on skis with a 24m turn radius which can't help.  I really need to get my other skis mounted.  Also if you're skiing glades/moguls don't you want tail wash?



In the glades?  Not really.  You're certainly not going to be arcing cleanly with a 24m sidecut and Eastern glades, but it's generally better to work on consistent brushed turns rather than arcing half a turn and then chucking the skis sideways in the other half.  (A "brushed turn", by my definition, is one in which the tails come as closely as possible to following the tips while still producing the desired turn radius, and where the deviation in path between tip and tail is more or less constant throughout the turn.)  I was out on a pair of 188cm 9S's (pre-super-sidecut-slalom skis), which probably have a turn natural radius in the neighborhood of six miles, and I was able to ski quite effectively on limited terrain without washing out my tails.

(or, to put it another way--yes, you'll have to skid part of the turn.  But it generally works better to skid the whole turn less than to skid the finish of the turn more.)

As far as moguls go--I'm not a mogul skier, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  I can fake it on my 167s, using similar technique to what I usually do when I'm making brushed turns with a bit more flexion/extension involved, but that's about it.


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## awf170 (Dec 17, 2006)

Greg said:


> Some good advice here. Actually, we ski groomers somewhat similarly. Maybe it's a tall, skinny guy-thing. One thing you can work on and is something I'm trying to do is to finish your turn more completely. I do the same thing, i.e. initiate the turn and then about half way through, sort of coast into the next turn as opposed to really driving through the end of the turn on edge. I particularly have this problem on hard pack and I need to learn to trust my edges more instead of letting the tail wash out. I guess I normally let the natural rebound of the ski bring me into the next turn, but keeping the gas on during that rebound really makes the transition more fluid. I'm concentrating on this a lot of the groomers as it's essentially a very similar aspect as extending when skiing bumps. Good hand position. As was mentioned, try to do some pole plants. Quiet down that upper body and get rid of the bob. It seems like your doing that to initiate a turn, but if you were following through the end of your previous turn you probably wouldn't need to do that. Finally, take all my advice with a grain of salt as it's coming from a non-expert recreational skier with no instructor background.




Yeah, I was actually going to say earlier that we ski very similar.  You just seem more fluid and quick.  I bet if I get rid of the bouncing up and down our skiing styles will look almost idenical.

Off to go practice. :smile:


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## bvibert (Dec 17, 2006)

FWIW, Austin, my only advice is to only concentrate on working on one thing at a time.  It's easy to get over-whelmed by all the suggestions.  When I try to work on everything at once I get frustrated and just fall back onto my bad habits without gaining anything.  For me it's much more effective to pick one thing I think is really important and work on that until I really get it, then onto the next...


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## eatskisleep (Dec 17, 2006)

How about these (not from this season):


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## mattchuck2 (Dec 17, 2006)

I generally don't like to comment on stills.  I have no idea what happened before or after the shot was taken.  If you REALLY want an opinion, though, I will say you're probably doing a little too much leaning in the top picture.  You are generating good edge angles, but the angulation should come from your lower body instead of your entire frame.  You need to "feel the pinch" (as ski instructors say) in your outside abs.  Ask someone you ski with about this, it's easier to show than to explain.

Nothing to say, really, about the second picture.  It's a weird angle, you're not making any turns, and even if you were, conditions would dictate that you just go with the flow in that area.  Nice line, though.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 17, 2006)

mattchuck2 said:


> I generally don't like to comment on stills. I have no idea what happened before or after the shot was taken. If you REALLY want an opinion, though, I will say you're probably doing a little too much leaning in the top picture. You are generating good edge angles, but the angulation should come from your lower body instead of your entire frame. You need to "feel the pinch" (as ski instructors say) in your outside abs. Ask someone you ski with about this, it's easier to show than to explain.
> 
> Nothing to say, really, about the second picture. It's a weird angle, you're not making any turns, and even if you were, conditions would dictate that you just go with the flow in that area. Nice line, though.


 
Thanks for the comments/suggestions. Here is another photo from the same race as the first photo where it looks like my upper body is pretty straight and I'm not leaning as much:


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## awf170 (Dec 17, 2006)

bvibert said:


> FWIW, Austin, my only advice is to only concentrate on working on one thing at a time.  It's easy to get over-whelmed by all the suggestions.  When I try to work on everything at once I get frustrated and just fall back onto my bad habits without gaining anything.  For me it's much more effective to pick one thing I think is really important and work on that until I really get it, then onto the next...




Yeah, I figured that.  Today I pretty much just worked on leaning forward in my boot as much as possible through out the whole turn.  And actually from doing that a bunch of other things clicked.  I have still have to work on it a good amount more but I feel in around 5 days or so I should be pretty good (aka no more skid).

Is it just me or does forcing yourself to flex your boot as hard as possible eliminate 90% of your problems?  I know for me it does.

Also, it is so wierd to that last year I didn't care about technique at all, and now it is pretty much the only thing I think about while skiing (atleast when I am by myself).


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## bigbog (Dec 17, 2006)

*...starting out the season, especially this one...*

Hi awf170,
 Good points from _everyone!_.  Ditto on *bvibert's*...cause a lot happens simultaneously for a turn to click...not to mention letting arc #1 flow into the next arc...then the next...etc.
Without relaxing those feet & ankles, adding some angulation....as well as forward momentum, engaging the ski's shovels will happen late _every time_.    Pressurize the ski and the ski will do the turning...


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## Greg (Dec 17, 2006)

bvibert said:


> FWIW, Austin, my only advice is to only concentrate on working on one thing at a time.  It's easy to get over-whelmed by all the suggestions.  When I try to work on everything at once I get frustrated and just fall back onto my bad habits without gaining anything.  For me it's much more effective to pick one thing I think is really important and work on that until I really get it, then onto the next...



Indeed.


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## bvibert (Dec 18, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Is it just me or does forcing yourself to flex your boot as hard as possible eliminate 90% of your problems?  I know for me it does.



Things definitely seem to go much smoother for me when I'm able to get my weight forward and out of the back seat



> Also, it is so wierd to that last year I didn't care about technique at all, and now it is pretty much the only thing I think about while skiing (atleast when I am by myself).



If nothing else it gives you something to do when conditions are less than ideal...


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Dec 18, 2006)

Sky521 said:


> *applause*
> 
> I didn't take a lesson last year for the first time in three years.  Wachusett makes it very simple to take lessons.  I buy a book of Group Lessons, 5 lessons for $59.  No one at level 6 or higher (of 9 levels?) takes group lessons...so I get private lessons for a fraction of the price.  I ALWAYS tip the instructor.  I've had instructors hang with me after the lesson just to free ski a bit.  What a confidence builder/ego trip.
> 
> ...




After my first debacle on shaped skis last friday, my next time out I am definintely taking lessons. I work close to Wachusett, so maybe after work, I can head over, catch a lesson, come back and do it again. 
I cannot believe how hard it (for me, anyway) to go from straight ski mentality to shaped ski mentality. Ugh.


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## hrstrat57 (Dec 18, 2006)

Sheik Yerbouti said:


> After my first debacle on shaped skis last friday, my next time out I am definintely taking lessons. I work close to Wachusett, so maybe after work, I can head over, catch a lesson, come back and do it again.
> I cannot believe how hard it (for me, anyway) to go from straight ski mentality to shaped ski mentality. Ugh.



sheik,

check out the free demo team vids in my signature below....a quick tip on how to start dialing in straight ski to shaped ski technique tip btw....????

at wa bottom flat run out part of conifer....stop, start again, straight run, then tap pole and tip....ride ski all the way to stop. Stay forward focus on stance, pressure and tipping. Straight run again, tap other pole, tip..turn other direction. After a few dozen of these, try to put em together. This is similar approach to the old school psia patience turns, only results quicker to achieve due to the new technology...I am assuming of course you have carving technology....max 75 dimension center..

Check out the argento avanzato and oro base/avanzato segments - these drills are clearly illustrated.

Good luck, I have other links to CSIA free vids too if interested....pm me.

Cheers hrstrat57


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## jack97 (Dec 18, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Is it just me or does forcing yourself to flex your boot as hard as possible eliminate 90% of your problems?  I know for me it does.
> 
> Also, it is so wierd to that last year I didn't care about technique at all, and now it is pretty much the only thing I think about while skiing (atleast when I am by myself).



If you're addicted, it's only natural to be thinking about this stuff. The boot flex/forward lean solves alot of problems but be careful, we have spring condtion right now. When condtions vary you have to apply it and time it the right way. Progressive loading, especially important with hard granular, with me I have to be patient about getting a clean edge release and engage my new edge, if I try to fast, I will overpower my tails.  

This tech stuff can drive me crazy but take it one step at a time it's manageble.


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## Sheik Yerbouti (Dec 18, 2006)

hrstrat57 said:


> sheik,
> 
> check out the free demo team vids in my signature below....a quick tip on how to start dialing in straight ski to shaped ski technique tip btw....????
> 
> ...




Thanks, but it's all in Italian, and I don't understand it. I do appreciate the effort though. Thanks!


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 18, 2006)

My turn 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMyhtF1PMQQ

From this Saturday at Burke on manmade corn.
I feel that I'm probably keeping my feet to close together.


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## hrstrat57 (Dec 18, 2006)

*ooops google*



Sheik Yerbouti said:


> Thanks, but it's all in Italian, and I don't understand it. I do appreciate the effort though. Thanks!



ooops sorry, use google and the translation feature....or click on video lezioni and shut off the sound which eliminates the cheesy music and the Italian talk over....then look at the 3 segments I mentioned. translated in order, advanced intermediate, expert, advanced expert or silver, gold and advanced gold.  

it's the pictures that really talk anyway...:-D 

Don't let words get in the way...

good luck


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## ctenidae (Dec 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> My turn
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMyhtF1PMQQ
> 
> From this Saturday at Burke on manmade corn.
> I feel that I'm probably keeping my feet to close together.



Looks to me like you're in the back seat a bit, using your butt to push the skis through the turn. Do you feel like your feet are accelerating faster than your body? If so, lean forward a bit more.


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## Deviations (Dec 18, 2006)

The Italian vids were great.  The Italians always did ski with grace.

I just started skiing again after a 15 year layoff.  I was a well versed expert back in the day (race, extreme, bumps), and am curious about why we should use a wider stance with shaped skis?  If I didn't have problems before, will the shape induce problems in a narrow stance?  Or, is a wider stance more forgiven by shaped skiis?

I looked at getting a "shaped" lesson, but the first couple of instructors really couldn't explain why I should change.  I don't have my old 210 GS skis anymore, so shaped is a reality for me now.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 18, 2006)

ctenidae said:


> Looks to me like you're in the back seat a bit, using your butt to push the skis through the turn. Do you feel like your feet are accelerating faster than your body? If so, lean forward a bit more.



Thanks!
Sometimes think I do get to much backward lean. At teh same time it makes skiing a boring, chopped up, corn groomer seem more interesting if I feel like my feet are going to go flying out from under me if I catch air on a roller.  :grin:


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## hrstrat57 (Dec 18, 2006)

Deviations said:


> The Italian vids were great.  The Italians always did ski with grace.
> 
> I just started skiing again after a 15 year layoff.  I was a well versed expert back in the day (race, extreme, bumps), and am curious about why we should use a wider stance with shaped skis?  If I didn't have problems before, will the shape induce problems in a narrow stance?  Or, is a wider stance more forgiven by shaped skiis?
> 
> I looked at getting a "shaped" lesson, but the first couple of instructors really couldn't explain why I should change.  I don't have my old 210 GS skis anymore, so shaped is a reality for me now.



also check out www.snowproab.com.

CSIA demo team vids...also free. I like free.

I jumped on supershort carving tech last year and found these videos priceless. I am a visual learner of course, doesn't work for everybody...but worked for me. I got just a wee bit of teaching skiing experience too, so I could see what was going on that was different than how I ski'd previously.  Keep the up/ down to a minimum, engage the tips early, create angles and hang on for the ride. Let the extreme sidecut of the modern ski do most of the work.

The timing of the requisite moves is pretty clear, crystal I think in the Italian vids.

If it works for you great.....I like sharing.

Enjoy


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## ctenidae (Dec 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> Thanks!
> Sometimes think I do get to much backward lean. At teh same time it makes skiing a boring, chopped up, corn groomer seem more interesting if I feel like my feet are going to go flying out from under me if I catch air on a roller.  :grin:



True, true. It does get interesting. My Head Monsters punish me horribly if I even consider thinking about what it would be like to get close to the backseat.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 18, 2006)

ctenidae said:


> True, true. It does get interesting. My Head Monsters punish me horribly if I even consider thinking about what it would be like to get close to the backseat.



I was skiing K2 Enemy (163cm) in that movie and I'm 6'4" with a size 13 foot. Getting into the back seat is quite easy with these skis. I have used them in a recreational NASTAR racing league and they can be very sketchy when I get into the back during a GS race. I have more than once just about gone over backward! Not a good way to improve my time ;-)


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## riverc0il (Dec 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> My turn
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMyhtF1PMQQ
> 
> From this Saturday at Burke on manmade corn.
> I feel that I'm probably keeping my feet to close together.


T, i have seen you rip some awesome turns and that vid doesn't do you justice, imo. i still can't believe how few years you have been skiing. definitely gotta spread those skis a little bit more into a more balanced stance. but i am sure you were just practicing your pow turns on the groomed  burke doesn't look half bad all things considered!


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## KevinF (Dec 18, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Yeah, I figured that.  Today I pretty much just worked on leaning forward in my boot as much as possible through out the whole turn.  And actually from doing that a bunch of other things clicked.  I have still have to work on it a good amount more but I feel in around 5 days or so I should be pretty good (aka no more skid).
> 
> Is it just me or does forcing yourself to flex your boot as hard as possible eliminate 90% of your problems?  I know for me it does.



I'm going to post my thoughts on your comments here.  I am not an instructor, so take my comments for what they're worth.

If you are having to lean hard into the front of your boots, then there is something very wrong with how your boots are setup.  I ski with just a touch of shin pressure in my boots in everything.  Short turns, long turns, bumps, powder -- if I feel pressure building on my shins, I back off.

What's wrong with shin pressure, you ask?  If you hit a bump, then the tip will rise.  It has to; it has nowhere else to go but up.  With you leaning forward (effectively driving the ski tip down at all times) -- well, something has to give.  And that "something" is going to be your weight getting chucked into the back seat.  Back seat driving going over the top of a bump equals big problems on the backside.

So what if you're just skiing groomers and have no interest in bumping?  Ok, well, when you're faced with a situation where you want a shorter-radius turn then you can cleanly carve, you'll be forced to add some sort of skidding component to your turns.  With excessive forward shin pressure gluing your ski tips to the snow, the only part of the ski that's available to skid is the tail.  The tail sliding will take the tip with it, but it's still the tail that started sliding first.  Sliding your tails around in heavy spring snow will kill your legs pretty quickly, as you are pushing a lot of snow with each and every turn. A tail-sliding ski is also devilishly hard to balance on.  Contrast that with a more neutral stance where you can more easily steer the tips in -- that's a much more easily controlled skid, and far easier to balance over.

If you asked me at the start of last season I would have agreed 100% with everything you wrote above.  90% of problems fixed, and a little work would resolve the other 10%.  Then one of my instructors finally convinced me that my boots just sucked and were totally working against me.  I got new ones and the difference in every condition has been night-and-day.  I worked with the same instructor again this past weekend, and he was astounded at the changes.

You currently have to lean forward to get the control you desire.  If you were to back off the shin pressure with your current setup, you probably would have a large loss of control due to the total lack of tip pressure that would result.  I'm just saying that you sound a lot like I did last year, and that there is a much, much more relaxing way to ski.  i.e., just relaxed with your boots holding you in the right place.  I can barely flex my boots, but I don't need to -- i.e., shin pressure has gone from something I wanted to maintain all the time (like you said) to something that I basically try to avoid (at least in extremes).  Staying centered in my boots provides all the tip bite I need.  No flexing cold plastic boots, no sliding tails around.  Skiing has become more effortless then I ever thought it could be.


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## riverc0il (Dec 18, 2006)

interesting post kevin. i wonder if perhaps it feels effortless because you have grown so accustomed to a certain pressure on the tongues of your boots? perhaps you no longer notice it? i agree that extreme pressure is not needed for your non-racing recreationalist, but i think there is something to be said for the control aspect of solid pressure on the tongue, most specifically for someone stuck in the back seat. if you are driving your heel into the pocket while simultaneously driving pressure onto the boot tongue, it is almost physically impossible to be in the back seat. you can't put pressure onto the tongue from the back seat. i think over emphasizing that forward lean is good in the short term to get more balanced as you certainly can not get balanced very well from the back side, but once you are forward, it is much more easy to pull off a big into a more balanced stance.

nothing wrong with having a skidding component to your turns. i think perhaps the difference would be starting with a skid versus finishing with a skid? the only true carve is on an open slope with radius turns and even then you still have a margin of skid. you can maintain good pressure on the tongue and good balance, the two do not cancel each other out. my forward pressure is directly related to the sweet spot on the ski, i drive the boot to drive that forward edge and tip of the ski in a precise way to create the type of turn i desire with varying degrees of follow through depending on desired speed, direction, etc. i don't think excessive force is required, but forward pressure is needed to drive the ski the way you want it, especially with more demanding skis. too much pressure is not required, obviously a skier shouldn't have shin pain from driving them forward. but i don't think forward pressure on the boot tongue and a centered and balanced stance are mutually exclusive. i suspect better for someone with back seat issues to over emphasize and back off once they get forward enough, but that is how i learned and it may not be the best approach. i am not an instructor either and can only speak for what works for me.


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## bigbog (Dec 19, 2006)

*......*

Excellent post *KevinF*,
 I am now a convert to the "_Balance is the Key_" way of thinking...no matter what level of forward-flex stiffness a boot has...as long as the skier is well-balanced in it.
 A few instances of experiencing runs of extremely fun skiing....followed by the astonishing realization(sp?) of my AT boots being in *Walk-Mode* all along kind of made me realize that the boot's cuff was made _to be used_ instead of being relied upon as a crutch for Balance.  In addition, I think that this could also be a situation where more height, [larger musculature,]? & tibia leverage might also come into play...favoring a larger _envelope_ for boot-tongue contact/resistance....?  ...*And* I think Steve has pointed out the need for good boot FIT & binding (+/-) ramp in order to pressure the ski's shovel...particularly to be able to engage those edges rather rapidly when skiing the trees...as in his & Austin's videos.


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## JimG. (Dec 19, 2006)

bigbog said:


> A few instances of experiencing runs of extremely fun skiing....followed by the astonishing realization(sp?) of my AT boots being in *Walk-Mode* all along kind of made me realize that the boot's cuff was made _to be used_ instead of being relied upon as a crutch.



I start each ski day with my AT boots in walk mode, with my boots unbuckled.

Then I buckle them, and finally they go into ski mode. Takes about 3 runs.

If I'm really skiing well, I sometimes forget to put them into ski mode. Come to think of it, sometimes when I'm skiing really crappy I forget too.

In general, people rely on the leverage they get from their boot cuffs way too much.


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## jack97 (Dec 19, 2006)

Pressure in one thing but using them to as a crutch for balance is another, being center is the key. However, I see more skiers on the back seat w/o forward lean, like the vids of awf170 and nek. 

How much pressure is a subjective. Not only is it related to boots but imo; ski stiffness and shape. Also where the hips are, if they are back you can overcompesate by pressing the shin hard.  If the hips are forward, you can think that its too much pressure.


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## awf170 (Dec 19, 2006)

Wow, some pretty interesting replys.  From my limited experiances so far I like to flex the boot, I don't want a cast around my ankle.  Also, I really don't think I am slamming my ankle in the boot that hard, but it just feels that way because I was so used to skiing centered or backseated my whole life.

KevinF:  I don't think I would ski glades, powder, and bumps like that, but to me it seems like it gives me the most control on groomers and in crud.  Also, if keep a centered stance I feel like I go backseated even more.  When I am centered any little bump will send me flying into the front of my boot, which will then cause me to push back to try to get centered again, causing me to finally end up way in the backseat.  For powder, glades, and bumps a consisent forward pressure would be the best, IMO.  If you hit a bump you still have room to go forward, but you still have enough pressure to initiate your turns.



> How much pressure is a subjective. Not only is it related to boots but imo; ski stiffness and shape. Also where the hips are, if they are back you can overcompesate by pressing the shin hard. If the hips are forward, you can tink that its too much pressure.



Yeah, my skis could also have something to do with the forward pressure I need.  If I didn't put a lot of force into my boots it just didn't feel like they would really carve a turn.  Also, you make a good point about the hips.  You pretty much always want your weight to stay centered, right?  So if your butt is pretty far back then you can center yourself out by pushing into your boots, if you butt is forward then being centered in your boots will even you out.   Personally for me putting my butt a little back, lower my center of gravity, then pushing hard into my boots felt best.


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## JimG. (Dec 19, 2006)

Austin, I think what most folks are telling you is that it is most important for your body parts to be centered in an area that roughly approximates the length between your toe and heel pieces on your bindings. Any further back is the backseat and any further forward is too aggressive.

As for flex, all of it should be coming from your ankles and knees. The rest of your body should be tall and as upright as possible. It is quite acceptable to develop major flex in your ankles and knees without pitching forward beyond your toe piece. It's when you start bending at the waist that the problems start.


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## jack97 (Dec 19, 2006)

What Jim said... 

In terms of shin pressure, the important thing is being aware of how you need to control the type of turns you want to do, "user mileage will vary".


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## awf170 (Dec 19, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Austin, I think what most folks are telling you is that it is most important for your body parts to be centered in an area that roughly approximates the length between your toe and heel pieces on your bindings. Any further back is the backseat and any further forward is too aggressive.
> 
> As for flex, all of it should be coming from your ankles and knees. The rest of your body should be tall and as upright as possible. It is quite acceptable to develop major flex in your ankles and knees without pitching forward beyond your toe piece. It's when you start bending at the waist that the problems start.




Thanks JimG, you rule.  About the waist flex: that is pretty much how i flexed until about 5 ski days ago, such a horrible techinique but I just didn't know better (watch Steve's Jay Peak video, it shows this perfectly).  I defiantly have to ski with you this year and get some tips.  When are you heading up to Wildcat, Mt. Washington, and Cannon this year?  

Also, these pictures Steve took of me at Stowe pretty much made it perfectly clear what I was doing so horribly wrong.

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe05.jpg

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe08.jpg


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## JimG. (Dec 19, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Thanks JimG, you rule.  About the waist flex: that is pretty much how i flexed until about 5 ski days ago, such a horrible techinique but I just didn't know better (watch Steve's Jay Peak video, it shows this perfectly).  I defiantly have to ski with you this year and get some tips.  When are you heading up to Wildcat, Mt. Washington, and Cannon this year?
> 
> Also, these pictures Steve took of me at Stowe pretty much made it perfectly clear what I was doing so horribly wrong.
> 
> ...



First pic: definite waist bend. You're reaching out over your toe piece and to counter that you're sticking your butt way back. All it is going to take is one decent terrain variation to throw you down.

Second pic: Much better in the waist area, but too little knee flex and zero ankle flex. You're more upright, but you're in the backseat because you're not flexing your boots. No pressure on the tongue of the boot. 

The ankle is the key balancing joint in skiing. Without flex there and some boot/shin contact, you're gonna get thrown around alot. Think about it this way...whatever angle your knee is flexed, your ankle should be equally flexed in the opposite direction. That's why old time Austrian instructors are always yelling "knees and ankles!".

I am looking to make a trip up to Wildcat/Mt. Washington sometime in mid-March this year. I'm looking for mid-winter conditions to check out the woods at Wildcat and to spend a few days skinning and skiing on Mt Washington.


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## riverc0il (Dec 19, 2006)

nice comment jim about knees AND ankles, i never thought of it that way but it makes perfect sense and is sage advice.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> T, i have seen you rip some awesome turns and that vid doesn't do you justice, imo. i still can't believe how few years you have been skiing. definitely gotta spread those skis a little bit more into a more balanced stance. but i am sure you were just practicing your pow turns on the groomed  burke doesn't look half bad all things considered!



Thanks for the vote of confidence. However sometimes I do feel like I get back in the saddle a bit in variable/choppy conditions like Burke had on Saturday. Keeping my weight more forward and driving my tips down is something I definitely need to work on, especially in the bumps. :beer:


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## bvibert (Dec 19, 2006)

Here's me at Hunter on Friday:

http://www.bvibert.com/skiing/vids/bvibert_hunter_121506.wmv

I'm pretty lame in the second half, the falling snowboarder and SOD threw me off a bit...


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## jack97 (Dec 19, 2006)

bvibert said:


> Here's me at Hunter on Friday:
> 
> http://www.bvibert.com/skiing/vids/bvibert_hunter_121506.wmv
> 
> I'm pretty lame in the second half, the falling snowboarder and SOD threw me off a bit...




Need upper and lower body seperation. You're using the upper body to start or making it as part of your turns, you can almost see your shoulder and arms hooks at the upper half of the trail. Definitely see it in the lower half of the trail. Do it to much and it puts your lower body out of position for the next turn. 

Also, you're banking your turns (body leaning toward the surface) versus keeping the body uprigth to counterbalance the legs due to the ski edge angle. The more banking, the less edge angle, limits the amount of range you have and the type of turns you can make.


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## SnowRider (Dec 19, 2006)

my tips...

1.aim tips down slope.
2. Scan trail for possible gapers
3. Push off
4. Go Straight
5. Carve
6. Stop
7. Get on lift
8. Put bar down
9. Get off lift

And Repeat


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## JimG. (Dec 20, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> nice comment jim about knees AND ankles, i never thought of it that way but it makes perfect sense and is sage advice.



Ankle flex and good balancing are the usual issues for the advanced/expert skier who has reached a plateau and can't seem to move ahead. Ankles are so key in this regard and it's why I start my day in walk mode with unbuckled boots. That way, I can't fake anything. If I have lazy ankles to start the day, I don't after my first few runs.


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## bvibert (Dec 20, 2006)

jack97 said:


> Need upper and lower body seperation. You're using the upper body to start or making it as part of your turns, you can almost see your shoulder and arms hooks at the upper half of the trail. Definitely see it in the lower half of the trail. Do it to much and it puts your lower body out of position for the next turn.
> 
> Also, you're banking your turns (body leaning toward the surface) versus keeping the body uprigth to counterbalance the legs due to the ski edge angle. The more banking, the less edge angle, limits the amount of range you have and the type of turns you can make.



Thanks!  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to work on these issues?

Also, that video is down right now, I'm having issues with my host.  I hope to have it back up soon....


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## JimG. (Dec 20, 2006)

bvibert said:


> Thanks!  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to work on these issues?



I always have ideas...

Pick a run you feel very comfortable on. Stand on top, look down the slope, and pick a stationary object as a visual goal. Look at that visual goal. Don't take your eyes off of it. Now ski...careful, don't stop looking at your visual target. What you are going to find is that you're going to get dizzy swiveling your head to maintain eye contact on your goal if you start rotating your upper body. The idea is to keep the upper body still and let your legs move underneath you. 

To take it to a higher level, start on top of the same run, use the same target, but hold your poles at mid shaft and use them to frame your target. Now ski. Don't let your target move out of your frame. 

See how that works for you.


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## jack97 (Dec 20, 2006)

bvibert said:


> Thanks!  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to work on these issues?



Here’s some drills; 

To get rid of banking. On a comfortable trail, hold in one hand the two poles near the handle and the other hand hold the poles near the basket. Think of your poles as a leveler. Hold it at cafeteria tray height, keep your elbows tuck to the side of the body. Make your turns and try to keep the poles parallel to the surface (as a leveler). 

For upper body separation extend this on Jim’s idea, instead of holding the poles mid shaft in each hand, hold it the way I describe and you can use your fist to frame the target. I’ve used markings on the mid shaft of the pole as a pointer to a straight line to the target. If don’t have good markings put duct tape at mid shaft.


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## bvibert (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks guys.  I was trying Jim's first suggestion last night.  It seemed to be helping, but it's hard to tell.  I'll try the other drills next time out, maybe tonight...


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## JimG. (Dec 21, 2006)

jack97 said:


> Here’s some drills;
> 
> To get rid of banking. On a comfortable trail, hold in one hand the two poles near the handle and the other hand hold the poles near the basket. Think of your poles as a leveler. Hold it at cafeteria tray height, keep your elbows tuck to the side of the body. Make your turns and try to keep the poles parallel to the surface (as a leveler).



Another great drill...and you can build on this idea by just resting the poles on your wrists once you have mastered holding them level. To expand on the cafeteria tray image, imagine that your poles are a tray that has a few full glasses of water on it. 

Don't spill!!


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## hammer (Dec 21, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Another great drill...and you can build on this idea by just resting the poles on your wrists once you have mastered holding them level. To expand on the cafeteria tray image, imagine that your poles are a tray that has a few full glasses of water on it.
> 
> Don't spill!!


I had an instructor at Crotched that had us do this drill...I dropped my poles a number of times on that one...


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## JimG. (Dec 21, 2006)

hammer said:


> I had an instructor at Crotched that had us do this drill...I dropped my poles a number of times on that one...



Keep practicing...like anything, practice is important.

When I had a group that really got this stuff quickly, I would take them to the beginner area and slow everything way down. Slowing down their skiing really emphasized any technique flaws.


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## riverc0il (Dec 21, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Keep practicing...like anything, practice is important.
> 
> When I had a group that really got this stuff quickly, I would take them to the beginner area and slow everything way down. Slowing down their skiing really emphasized any technique flaws.


i was about to suggest this. slowing down and making deliberate and slow turns without loosing your timing is very helpful once you think you have a drill or technique licked. then you really find out exactly how much more work you need!


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 26, 2006)

I always found that the fastest way to improve is to ski/follow with a few expert skiers.It's amazing how you can pick up technique by trying to mimic a great skiers turns.It worked for me.Just don't get in over your head as far as trying to keep up high speed and tough  terrain.


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## awf170 (Jan 25, 2007)

Have at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCuYWUeoII

I also tried skiing the line slower and more technical but Marc doesn't know how to use a camera. 

The conditions are very small, spread out, random moguls.

Basically I'm trying to ski it as aggresively as possible with no regard towards anything else.

How can you ski small bumps and crud aggresively without getting thrown off like I do in the middle of the clip?

(I know I suck.  I don't need to be reminded again.)

Also, don't tell me to slow down.  That isn't fun.


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## Greg (Jan 26, 2007)

awf170 said:


> How can you ski small bumps and crud aggresively without getting thrown off like I do in the middle of the clip?



Slow down.



awf170 said:


> Also, don't tell me to slow down.  That isn't fun.



Okay. Nevermind.


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Have at it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCuYWUeoII
> 
> I also tried skiing the line slower and more technical but Marc doesn't know how to use a camera.
> ...



Look at Marc's vid, on the same trail and conditions he is in control. He is using short turns, good edge angle on the skis. Knees and ankles flexed, upper body with a little forward lean. 

Your vid, knee and ankle flex is good but the upper body was slighly back, don't know if this was due to excessive speed. But as stated you can can control this speed with short turns.


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## Grassi21 (Jan 26, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Look at Marc's vid, on the same trail and conditions he is in control. He is using short turns, good edge angle on the skis. Knees and ankles flexed, upper body with a little forward lean.
> 
> Your vid, knee and ankle flex is good but the upper body was slighly back, don't know if this was due to excessive speed. But as stated you can can control this speed with short turns.



Marc a role-model?  What's this world coming to?


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

Grassi21 said:


> Marc a role-model?  What's this world coming to?



Wow I can't believe I just said that, I was over analyzing. Somebody.. put me in the observation room.


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## JimG. (Jan 26, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Your vid, knee and ankle flex is good but the upper body was slighly back, don't know if this was due to excessive speed. But as stated you can can control this speed with short turns.



It's not the speed, although the speed makes it worse. It's lazy hands.

Austin, you should be able to see your hands in your lower peripheral vision at all times when you ski. Keep your hands up more, and allow your elbows to move away from your body a little. If you can't see your hands by just moving your eyes down a little and not drop your head, your hands are up to no good and your skiing will suffer.


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

JimG. said:


> It's not the speed, although the speed makes it worse. It's lazy hands.
> 
> Austin, you should be able to see your hands in your lower peripheral vision at all times when you ski. Keeps your hands up more, and allow your elbows to move away from your body a little. If you can't see your hands by just moving your eys down a little and not drop your head, your hands are up to no good and your skiing will suffer.




Interesting. Do you see alot lazy hands along with the upper body leaning back?


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## JimG. (Jan 26, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Interesting. Do you see alot lazy hands along with the upper body leaning back?



Alot. Poor hand position is widespread, even in advanced skiers.

Some of the symptoms are upper body leaning back, poor knee/ankle flex, bending at the waist, head down, big backseat action.

I think Austin's upper body position is more a reflection of too little ankle flex but I'm having trouble picking that up in the video.


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I think Austin's upper body position is more a reflection of too little ankle flex but I'm having trouble picking that up in the video.




Yeah, the upper half and mid part of the run was to fast and blurred, I thought he showed good ankle flex at the bottom.


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## Marc (Jan 26, 2007)

Grassi21 said:


> Marc a role-model?  What's this world coming to?



I'm no more a role model than ctenidae is a cheerleader for the Dallas Cowboys.  Trust me on this one.


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## Marc (Jan 26, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Yeah, the upper half and mid part of the run was to fast and blurred, I thought he showed good ankle flex at the bottom.



My camera skills aren't the best either.  Well, at least I knew which direction to point the thing in.


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## 2knees (Jan 26, 2007)

Marc said:


> I'm no more a role model than ctenidae is a cheerleader for the Dallas Cowboys.  Trust me on this one.




maybe not a role model but that was some nice skiing.


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## Greg (Jan 26, 2007)

2knees said:


> maybe not a role model but that was some nice skiing.



Agreed! Nice short turns, good knee flex & hand position. How are the bumps skills coming along, Marc? Hopefully, you'll be ripping with us on Wednesday.......or maybe Sunday too? :idea:


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## Greg (Jan 26, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Have at it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCuYWUeoII



BTW, you can embed YouTube vids using &hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1">&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">


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## Marc (Jan 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> Agreed! Nice short turns, good knee flex & hand position. How are the bumps skills coming along, Marc? Hopefully, you'll be ripping with us on Wednesday.......or maybe Sunday too? :idea:



Yes.  I intend to be ripping up myself in the bumps next week.  The skills are... eh, sometimes on, sometimes off.

I was going to ask you about embedding youtube videos too.  I know this forum software supported it.  Cool beans.


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## hammer (Jan 26, 2007)

Marc said:


> Yes.  I intend to be ripping up myself in the bumps next week.  The skills are... eh, sometimes on, sometimes off.


How long have you been skiing?

I can't speak to technique details but your skiing looks good to me...you seem to have a nice flow through the short turns.


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## Marc (Jan 26, 2007)

hammer said:


> How long have you been skiing?
> 
> I can't speak to technique details but your skiing looks good to me...you seem to have a nice flow through the short turns.



This is my seventh season skiing, second skiing bumps.


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## Greg (Jan 26, 2007)

Marc said:


> Yes.  I intend to be ripping up myself in the bumps next week.  The skills are... eh, sometimes on, sometimes off.



I think you'll like them. Good-sized bumps, low angle. Great for practicing A&E without getting wildly out of control.


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

hammer said:


> I can't speak to technique details but your skiing looks good to me...you seem to have a nice flow through the short turns.




Look at his ankle and knee flex. It gets him in good position to control the edges as he releases and engages them as varous parts of the turn.


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## jack97 (Jan 26, 2007)

Marc,
  BTW, now that I dragged you into to this, I hope you don't mind. :grin:

Sometimes the mouth goes off before the brain starts working.


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## awf170 (Jan 26, 2007)

jack97 said:


> Look at Marc's vid, on the same trail and conditions he is in control. He is using short turns, good edge angle on the skis. Knees and ankles flexed, upper body with a little forward lean.
> 
> Your vid, knee and ankle flex is good but the upper body was slighly back, don't know if this was due to excessive speed. But as stated you can can control this speed with short turns.



Good for him.  I said I didn't want to make short turns or ski it any slower.  



JimG. said:


> It's not the speed, although the speed makes it worse. It's lazy hands.
> 
> Austin, you should be able to see your hands in your lower peripheral vision at all times when you ski. Keep your hands up more, and allow your elbows to move away from your body a little. If you can't see your hands by just moving your eyes down a little and not drop your head, your hands are up to no good and your skiing will suffer.



Thanks Jim!  Yeah, I defiantly have lazy hand problems.  Next time at Wawa I just going to try taking a few runs just focusing on my hands.  And about the looking down tip, good idea.



jack97 said:


> Yeah, the upper half and mid part of the run was to fast and blurred, I thought he showed good ankle flex at the bottom.



I'm pretty sure my ankle flex is pretty good in that whole video except for when I almost fall.  But I'm still way in the backseat with my butt and upper body.  My guess is that if I shoved my hands forward like I should I will be forward enough? Opinions?



Greg said:


> BTW, you can embed YouTube vids using &hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1">&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">


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## jack97 (Jan 27, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I'm pretty sure my ankle flex is pretty good in that whole video except for when I almost fall.  But I'm still way in the backseat with my butt and upper body.  My guess is that if I shoved my hands forward like I should I will be forward enough? Opinions?



It look’s like the ankle and knees are flexed around the middle of the run, hard to say at the top of the run. IMO, just have to lean the body forward; yeah, lazy hands could be the cause, getting the hands in front would help. I would add pole planting to start the turns, just a flick on the surface. Even initiate the plant early would get your upper body forward. 

  You’re flying out of the bump because of too much speed (obviously). Try absorbing as you get to the top of the bump, just lean forward and bend the knees. Absorption is at its maximum at the top of the bump. After you crest the bump, extend the legs to maintain snow contact. When the bumps are spread out like it is in the vid, another set of forces comes into play; the A&E helps in this case to stabilize the center of mass. I can explain the physics but I might cause a fire around here. 
   Another soultion around the bump problem, use your edges more. Practice short turns to release and engage the edges. Engage in the sense of not locking them into a carve, but to set them in the snow to help steer and guide the ski.


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## awf170 (Jan 27, 2007)

jack97 said:


> It look’s like the ankle and knees are flexed around the middle of the run, hard to say at the top of the run. IMO, just have to lean the body forward; yeah, lazy hands could be the cause, getting the hands in front would help. I would add pole planting to start the turns, just a flick on the surface. Even initiate the plant early would get your upper body forward.
> 
> You’re flying out of the bump because of too much speed (obviously). Try absorbing as you get to the top of the bump, just lean forward and bend the knees. Absorption is at its maximum at the top of the bump. After you crest the bump, extend the legs to maintain snow contact. When the bumps are spread out like it is in the vid, another set of forces comes into play; the A&E helps in this case to stabilize the center of mass. I can explain the physics but I might cause a fire around here.
> Another soultion around the bump problem, use your edges more. Practice short turns to release and engage the edges. Engage in the sense of not locking them into a carve, but to set them in the snow to help steer and guide the ski.



Cool, thanks. Yeah, I defiantly need to pole plant.  I keep getting told to, then once I get to the mountain I totally forget. :dunce:


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## jack97 (Jan 27, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I defiantly need to pole plant.  I keep getting told to, then once I get to the mountain I totally forget.



Don't forget! IMO planting and hand action is becoming a lost technique. My theory is that modern skis have made it so easy to turn that skiers are placing them to the sides or don't know what to do with them. Been reading that some race coaches are saying that the plant is important to get the body setup while in the turn transition, getting the body lined up for the upcoming turn. 

BTW, for the absorption, play around on the how deep you want to squat down. You will see that it does stabilze the CM and can lower the speed. At Wachusetts, look for the kick outs that riders use to launch themselves. Go ski that kick out, instead of pumping up, absorb (pump down), you will feel the difference.


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## bvibert (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm sure no one cares with all the snow falling and all, but here's a couple of clips of me at Hunter last Friday, have at it...

*Clip 1:*
HiRes (~6.5MB)
LoRes (~1.5MB)

*Clip 2:*
HiRes (~2.8MB)
LoRes (~1MB)


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## 2knees (Feb 14, 2007)

i'm not much for giving tips but it looks like you could benefit from getting your hands up a little higher and a little more out front.  It appears as if you are crouching a little bit. The turns seem to be a little bit skidded, not bad, but a little.  I think jim or someone more qualified would be able to help there.  Its most likely a hip or ankle thing.  but all the miles you've got in this year are obviously paying.


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## JimG. (Feb 14, 2007)

bvibert said:


> I'm sure no one cares with all the snow falling and all, but here's a couple of clips of me at Hunter last Friday, have at it...
> 
> *Clip 1:*
> HiRes (~6.5MB)
> ...



More ankle flex B...alot more.

Get your hands up and a little more away from your body.

EDIT: and I didn't see Pat's post until after I wrote that.


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## bvibert (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks guys, I've been getting lazy with my hands need to concentrate on that more.  I was playing with trying to get more ankle flex on the flats between bump runs last night with limited success.  I definitely still crouching, haven't had much luck fixing that.  I guess that's linked with the ankle flex.  I've been trying to concentrate on getting my hips up and forward.  

The turns were skidded for sure.  I was working on trying to make short turns on very stiff GS race skis, which aren't really ideal for doing anything other than large, fast GS turns..

One thing that I've been working on is trying to quiet my upper body, which I think is looking a little better than the last time I posted a video...


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## Greg (Feb 14, 2007)

bvibert said:


> One thing that I've been working on is trying to quiet my upper body, which I think is looking a little better than the last time I posted a video...



Upper body is definitely looking more still; a bit of turn initiation there, but not bad. Hands more up and out as was mentioned. Hips forward is tough sometimes; I've been working on that since last year and still end up crouching quite a bit.


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## jack97 (Feb 14, 2007)

Greg said:


> Upper body is definitely looking more still; a bit of turn initiation there, but not bad. Hands more up and out as was mentioned. Hips forward is tough sometimes; I've been working on that since last year and still end up crouching quite a bit.



Yeah, defintie improvement on the upper body, in addition the banking is less pronounce.  

As Jim said,  ankle flex... alot more. I would suggest focusing on this flex and hips forward with longer turns, that way it would give you more time to feel the tip bite into the snow (another indicator of good flex) and feel the edge engage into the snow with the flex. Trying to do this in short turns, you might lose the sensation of the movement.


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## bigbog (Feb 14, 2007)

*while looking_at/thinking_about video 2...*

Hi Brian,
 As usual, great advice...particularly *JimG* and *jack97*.
Man, I'm just a wanna-be _better skier_...my words of wisdom can often be thrown into the trash bin ASAP :lol:

Relax those lowerbody _joints_ to _*angulate!*_...stop the banking...and keep the butt _up front_!.
Elbows out ahead of belly-button.  When you drop your hands...your elbows pull your shoulders backward!..not a good direction to be headed in.  
EDIT:*..Guess I mistakenly deleted the part that said.._Nice_ turns!   First portion of your turns are skidded..bur are skidded very nicely!   Your pressuring of the ski is just a little to the rear(in back of heel)..but as *JimG* mentioned previously, "If you aren't using some skidding somewhere, you aren't skiing much steep stuff".
Apologies for rambling....can we all spell _Pow!_....


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 18, 2007)

Alright, here's a clip of me hittin' bumps on Twist at the Bush.  This was just a day or two after recovering from the flu... so I wasn't quite hitting on all cylinders.  The bumps were pretty good, though not quite in a perfect line.  But then, what natural bumps are?  It was definitely a bit thin, so you might see some random fast movements...... I was probably avoiding rocks!

Anyways... have at it:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHz_URNRL50


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## 2knees (Feb 18, 2007)

not much to say other then impressive. the speed impressed me the most.  People tend to make a big deal out of all kinds of technique, but try ratcheting up the speed a bit and things happen alot quicker.  i would bet there are a whole ton of people who would love to just get to the level you are already at.  

i'll leave the expert analysis to someone else.

100 bucks says someone claims there should be more absorption and extension. :smile:


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 18, 2007)

Thanks, 2knees.  I actually just started skiing bumps last January.  The only reason I'm at the level I'm at is because I ski just about every day.  I'm shooting for about 110 days (some are only 2 hour days, but that still means at least 8 or 10 runs) this year.  I should be a little over half way to 110 right now.

Yeah, I'm waiting for the absorption and extension comments to start rolling in.  But before they do, I must say that in order to absorb and extend properly, one must assume bumps that are big enough and formed properly to do it.  Some of these were, most weren't.  Believe me... I've absorbed and extended to the point where I've hit my chin with my knees, and worried that I broke my jaw!


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## 2knees (Feb 18, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> Thanks, 2knees.  I actually just started skiing bumps last January.  The only reason I'm at the level I'm at is because I ski just about every day.  I'm shooting for about 110 days (some are only 2 hour days, but that still means at least 8 or 10 runs) this year.  I should be a little over half way to 110 right now.
> 
> Yeah, I'm waiting for the absorption and extension comments to start rolling in.  But before they do, I must say that in order to absorb and extend properly, one must assume bumps that are big enough and formed properly to do it.  Some of these were, most weren't.  Believe me... I've absorbed and extended to the point where I've hit my chin with my knees, and worried that I broke my jaw!



Damn that crazy, 110 days.  The fact that you've only been skiing bumps for basically one season makes your second statement more amazing. And also very accurate.  You dont know how easily people forget what kind of bumps are being skied.  Small bumps or soft bumps or low angle bumps dont require tons of aborption and extension.  For me to keep full speed i try not to eat up all the bump cause cause the crap lives on the backs and troughs and the old a&e line of thinking has to be altered.


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## bigbog (Feb 18, 2007)

*issues for you = issues for me*

:lol: *B*,
 Didn't really mean to raise the font to a shout.....= same issues for me, particularly on steeps!   Relaxing to angulate is my pseudo-mantra, _especially_ on steeper terrain :lol:


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## jack97 (Feb 19, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> Yeah, I'm waiting for the absorption and extension comments to start rolling in.  But before they do, I must say that in order to absorb and extend properly, one must assume bumps that are big enough and formed properly to do it.  Some of these were, most weren't.  Believe me... I've absorbed and extended to the point where I've hit my chin with my knees, and worried that I broke my jaw!



First of all, I agree with 2knees, impressive. And I totally agree that you can get by with little A&E on small bumps however you can still use A&E. 

Having said all that here's the other foot. Looks like your CM is a little on your tails. More than a couple of times you pressured the tail to bleed off the speed, definitely at 10 sec. A tell tale sign was at the middle of the vid at 12 sec, the way you went up the bump. This becomes problematic when the bumps gets bigger, put enuf  weight on the tails and the skis will jet out in front of you going from frontside to backside. Puts you out of position for the next bump. 

Getting back to small bumps, you are pointing them east-west to pressure the tails. By using more A&E, you can point them north-south and back off from the tail pressure. Just an opinion, guess 2knees should collect his 100.


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## bvibert (Feb 19, 2007)

bigbog said:


> :lol: *B*,
> Didn't really mean to raise the font to a shout.....= same issues for me, particularly on steeps!   Relaxing to angulate is my pseudo-mantra, _especially_ on steeper terrain :lol:



Thanks for the tips.  I didn't think you were shouting at me, more like strong emphasis.


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 19, 2007)

jack97 said:


> First of all, I agree with 2knees, impressive. And I totally agree that you can get by with little A&E on small bumps however you can still use A&E.
> 
> Having said all that here's the other foot. Looks like your CM is a little on your tails. More than a couple of times you pressured the tail to bleed off the speed, definitely at 10 sec. A tell tale sign was at the middle of the vid at 12 sec, the way you went up the bump. This becomes problematic when the bumps gets bigger, put enuf  weight on the tails and the skis will jet out in front of you going from frontside to backside. Puts you out of position for the next bump.
> 
> Getting back to small bumps, you are pointing them east-west to pressure the tails. By using more A&E, you can point them north-south and back off from the tail pressure. Just an opinion, guess 2knees should collect his 100.



Thanks.  Yeah, I'm working on keeping the CG over the middle of the skis.  I do hate it when the tails bind up from leaning back too far!

Anyone else?


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 19, 2007)

jack97 said:


> First of all, I agree with 2knees, impressive. And I totally agree that you can get by with little A&E on small bumps however you can still use A&E.
> 
> Having said all that here's the other foot. Looks like your CM is a little on your tails. More than a couple of times you pressured the tail to bleed off the speed, definitely at 10 sec. A tell tale sign was at the middle of the vid at 12 sec, the way you went up the bump. This becomes problematic when the bumps gets bigger, put enuf  weight on the tails and the skis will jet out in front of you going from frontside to backside. Puts you out of position for the next bump.
> 
> Getting back to small bumps, you are pointing them east-west to pressure the tails. By using more A&E, you can point them north-south and back off from the tail pressure. Just an opinion, guess 2knees should collect his 100.



Just looked back over the video... at 10-12 seconds, I was going to stop, but my brother (who was filming) told me to keep going.  If I had kept the audio on the video you'd have heard him tell me to keep going and me having to say "what" before it sank in :lol: .


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## jack97 (Feb 19, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> Just looked back over the video... at 10-12 seconds, I was going to stop, but my brother (who was filming) told me to keep going.  If I had kept the audio on the video you'd have heard him tell me to keep going and me having to say "what" before it sank in :lol: .



At the beginning of the video, you can see the back leaning during the turns, especially since you point the skis east-west. You got a good amount of flex at the knees and most likely ankles (hard to see). This is whats saving you from jetting out on the smaller bumps. The knee flex forces your tips to drive down after you crest the bump. I think once you go on a steeper pitch or the bumps gets bigger, the leaning back is going put you out of position.


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 19, 2007)

jack97 said:


> At the beginning of the video, you can see the back leaning during the turns, especially since you point the skis east-west. You got a good amount of flex at the knees and most likely ankles (hard to see). This is whats saving you from jetting out on the smaller bumps. The knee flex forces your tips to drive down after you crest the bump. I think once you go on a steeper pitch or the bumps gets bigger, the leaning back is going put you out of position.



Hmm... yeah, I can see that.  Although, I spend most of my time on stuff significantly steeper than that with much bigger bumps, and generally don't have a problem.


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## jack97 (Feb 19, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> Hmm... yeah, I can see that.  Although, I spend most of my time on stuff significantly steeper than that with much bigger bumps, and generally don't have a problem.



If you can ski like that on steeper stuff with bigger bumps, then toss out what I said. 

Going back to initial comments, that run was impressive and the only minor critique was the cm being a little back.


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## JimG. (Feb 20, 2007)

jack97 said:


> If you can ski like that on steeper stuff with bigger bumps, then toss out what I said.
> 
> Going back to initial comments, that run was impressive and the only minor critique was the cm being a little back.



That's what I would say...a little more ankle flex would fix the CM being a little off, but we're getting awfully picky.


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks, JimG.  I guess I'll work on ankle flex and CM, for lack of anything better to do!


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## Skier75 (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay, I know this hasn't been up for a while but I've finailly have a pic of me skiing. Now I'm probably not as good as a lot I've seen here, but here goes. My biggest problem is to get my feet closer together, not sure how or when this has happened, but I used to have a closer stance than this:

What do you think? How do I get this more together?


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Mar 5, 2007)

First thing I would say is to keep your poles up and in front more, like you're holding a tray.  Then, I would try to keep the skis more parallel, and bend a little at the knees.  Keep the body upright, but give a little flex in the knees.

I'm sure JimG will chime with some more detailed advice.  He's the AZ instructor, you know :wink:


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## bvibert (Mar 5, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> First thing I would say is to keep your poles up and in front more, like you're holding a tray.  Then, I would try to keep the skis more parallel, and bend a little at the knees.  Keep the body upright, but give a little flex in the knees.
> 
> I'm sure JimG will chime with some more detailed advice.  He's the AZ instructor, you know :wink:



Jim is going to be away from a computer for a few days, so you'll have to wait on that one...


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

Skier75 said:


> Okay, I know this hasn't been up for a while but I've finailly have a pic of me skiing. Now I'm probably not as good as a lot I've seen here, but here goes. My biggest problem is to get my feet closer together, not sure how or when this has happened, but I used to have a closer stance than this:
> 
> What do you think? How do I get this more together?



If your doing this in the turns, this means that you have not committed most of the weight on the down hill leg. One drill you can do is on a very gentle pitch, initiate your turn by placing your weight on the upcoming downhill leg, you can lighten, lift the heel slightly or the whole leg of upcoming uphill leg to start the turn. So to turn left, lighten or the lift the left leg. Turn right, lighten the right leg.

If your legs are spread in the flats, keep the legs closer, roll your ankles to make small turns, this will keep your speed in check. Again, less weight on the uphill ski.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

not me (I suck) but my son in his 1st mogul comp a few weeks ago.

Any of you bumpers cart to offer up some tips?  I know he has room for improvement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9aRwxepQbo


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> not me (I suck) but my son in his 1st mogul comp a few weeks ago.
> 
> Any of you bumpers cart to offer up some tips?  I know he has room for improvement...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9aRwxepQbo



That's pretty impressive for, what did you say, a 9 year old?  Not bad.

I would just say make sure he works on keeping his shoulders square down the fall line, keep the upper body as still as possible (make the legs do the absorbing, and keep everything else still), and tighten the stance a little.  But seriously... for his age, he's really impressive.  I liked the pole plants.  He already pole plants better than 3/4 of the people I see skiing bumps every day at Sugarbush.

I think the best advice for him would be... keep skiing bumps as often as possible.  Ski ski ski, practice practice practice, attack attack attack, and everything else will just start to happen.

It's so refreshing to see young kids who are actually interested in mogul skiing!


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> not me (I suck) but my son in his 1st mogul comp a few weeks ago.
> 
> Any of you bumpers cart to offer up some tips?  I know he has room for improvement...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9aRwxepQbo



He is controlling his speed by braking with his turns. He needs to use absorption and extension with the turns. A good drill is to do this on a set of rollers, the youtube vid attached has this, look 14 sec into the vid. They want to kids to control their descent using A&E alone. BTW, from what i have read, its a standard exercise. If you can't find a set of rollers, even one is good to get the feel and get some sense of timing, look for them in the terrain park or a (snow cover) water pipe or ditch across the trail. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOHodIf33HE


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Mar 5, 2007)

Just watched it once more, and the only thing I'll add is that he seems to skid his left turns more than his right.  In other words, when approaching a bump to make a left turn, he rotates his skis further and slides into the bump, so the turn takes longer to initiate, and longer to release.

Again, very impressive.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

yeah, I've heard about speed control using A&E.  I'll look for some rollers for him to practice on.  Good suggestion.

Yes, he's 9.  I also need to practice A&E speed control so we can both work on it.


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## ski_industry_enthusiast (Mar 5, 2007)

jack97 said:


> He is controlling his speed by braking with his turns. He needs to use absorption and extension with the turns. A good drill is to do this on a set of rollers, the youtube vid attached has this, look 14 sec into the vid. They want to kids to control their descent using A&E alone. BTW, from what i have read, its a standard exercise. If you can't find a set of rollers, even one is good to get the feel and get some sense of timing, look for them in the terrain park or a (snow cover) water pipe or ditch across the trail.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOHodIf33HE



That's good advice.  The only thing I'll say about it, though, is that you need to remember that he's, quite frankly, still a little kid.  There's only so much absorbing a small pair of legs can do.  But yes, do work on A&E.  That will come, too, with practice and time.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

yes, someone else mentioned he looks like he tends more to one turn than the other.  I guess being ambidextrous in your turns is important.  We'll try to work on that.

Thanks for the tips.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

BTW - can someone explain how A&E can control speed?  I know it's how all good bumpers do it but if anyone can explain it well (e.g. how to do it MORE on one set of turns and LESS on others) that would be quite helpful.  Not sure if I explained myself well...


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

another reply - is he absorbing at all?  After watching it a few times it seems like he's just using his young knees and slamming into each bump and then turning quickly into the next.  I think he needs work on his A&E...


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## 2knees (Mar 5, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> Just watched it once more, and the only thing I'll add is that he seems to skid his left turns more than his right.  In other words, when approaching a bump to make a left turn, he rotates his skis further and slides into the bump, so the turn takes longer to initiate, and longer to release.
> 
> Again, very impressive.



That’s exactly what I was going to mention.  Although the troughs could be playing a part in accentuating the skid as it looks like they are more crosscut, or horizontal to the fall line on left turns.  tough to tell.  very good skiing though and a solid base to build upon.


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## bvibert (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> BTW - can someone explain how A&E can control speed?  I know it's how all good bumpers do it but if anyone can explain it well (e.g. how to do it MORE on one set of turns and LESS on others) that would be quite helpful.  Not sure if I explained myself well...



IIRC there was a pretty detailed explanation in a thread not too long ago.  I'll try and find it when I get back from lunch...


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

ski_industry_enthusiast said:


> That's good advice.  The only thing I'll say about it, though, is that you need to remember that he's, quite frankly, still a little kid.  There's only so much absorbing a small pair of legs can do.  But yes, do work on A&E.  That will come, too, with practice and time.



The sunapee freestyle team has kids around that age, they use A&E in the turns. I saw the coach teaching it, on the pitch they where on and how the bumps got formed (tight with deep troughs), they needed it. 

Some kids have short legs so do some adults. But it's really about moving the center of mass to control speed. Analogous to how a skier can accelerate out of a turn by shift his/her CM. A bumper can control their speed by moving the CM, the timing is key; at the crest of the bump you want to be in your deepest absorption, in the trough you want to be fully extended. The physic behind this was posted in another thread #288

http://forums.alpinezone.com/5633-everything-instructors-never-told-you-about-mogul-skiing-29.html


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

jack97 said:


> The sunapee freestyle team has kids around that age, they use A&E in the turns. I saw the coach teaching it, on the pitch they where on and how the bumps got formed (tight with deep troughs), they needed it.
> 
> Some kids have short legs so do some adults. But it's really about moving the center of mass to control speed. Analogous to how a skier can accelerate out of a turn by shift his/her CM. A bumper can control their speed by moving the CM, the timing is key; at the crest of the bump you want to be in your deepest absorption, in the trough you want to be fully extended. The physic behind this was posted in another thread #288
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/5633-everything-instructors-never-told-you-about-mogul-skiing-29.html



Thanks Jack - I'll be examining that thread to see what I can pick up.

Keep 'em coming...


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> another reply - is he absorbing at all?  After watching it a few times it seems like he's just using his young knees and slamming into each bump and then turning quickly into the next.  I think he needs work on his A&E...




No, he is slamming some of the bumps (partly what I mean by using his turns to brake), he has to work on the timing to absorb it and use it to control speed. It takes time but once he "gets it" its worth the effort.


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> Thanks Jack - I'll be examining that thread to see what I can pick up.
> 
> Keep 'em coming...



Marc has a great analogy on conservation of angular momentum in post #302....if you like this type of stuff.


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## bvibert (Mar 5, 2007)

jack97 said:


> The physic behind this was posted in another thread #288



Those are the posts I was thinking of, here's a link to the post that starts the discussion directly:

Post# 138659


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## 2knees (Mar 5, 2007)

all this bump talked has me jacked.  i feel like i havent skied good bumps in a year.  anyway, here are 2 videos from this year.  One is hunter under spring conditions. second is my local hill, sundown. the sundown run is quite mellow in pitch but i THINK i may have actually used decent absorption and extension.  probably more by accident since the trail is not steep enough to be conducive to hopping or slamming.   anyway, have at it.

http://www.gregblasko.com/skivids/2knees_Hunter_121506.wmv

http://www.gregblasko.com/skivids/Sundown_13107.wmv

edit: i'm the first skier in the sundown video.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

2knees - it looks prety damn good.  I'm not sure I could hang with ya..

The moments I've had clarity, I've absorbed a little more.  Thats what I would pick on.  You're not bringin the knees up far enough and pushing down into the troughs enough.  You've got to push on the acclerator pdeal into those troughs.

Pretty damn good, though.

Dork


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

Greg - the one thing I see is, it doesn't look like you're lookin 4 turns ahead.  I have that problem big time, and whenever I concentrate on doing it I'm amazed how it smooths me out.

Other than that, nice bump work.


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

2knees said:


> all this bump talked has me jacked.



You're killing me! All this talk about bumping. I feel like a sailor stuck on the ship ported next to the harbor town. 

BTW, jack is a noun not a verb or an adjective.


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## jack97 (Mar 5, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> Keep 'em coming...



Depending on how far you want to take this, check out the instructional vid from Mogul Logic. Lots of good stuff in there, its all about skiing moguls like the pros and is still applicable to non pros like us. Exactly the same as Dan Dipiro mentions in his book. Just to give you a tidbit, check out this other youtube vid from the Killington team, 3 min and 20 sec into it, the turns they make are specific to how you want to take it into the bumps. Martin explains why, use the knees to drive the turn, less hip angulation and more stuff I haven't thought about. They do it this way to make sure you get into a ready position for the A&E. John Smart who runs another mogul camp has another good video, but can't find it in the web.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmIakNCun7U

Martin's video
http://www.mogullogic.com/video.html


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## 2knees (Mar 5, 2007)

jack97 said:


> You're killing me! All this talk about bumping. I feel like a sailor stuck on the ship ported next to the harbor town.
> 
> BTW, jack is a noun not a verb or an adjective.



jack as in he got JACKED UP!

Its killing me too.  I know you're laid up but i couldnt get out either this weekend and i bet saturday must've been downright mogul heaven just about anywhere.


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## SkiDork (Mar 5, 2007)

Nice vid.  Iceman may want to go to KMS when he gets older...


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## Goblin84 (Mar 5, 2007)

oh ski academys.  Ive had a couple roommates that have gone, SMS and CVA.  My ideal job (well...ideal in the sense I could ski) would be to get a job as a college counselor at an academy. but I just say that joking around


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## awf170 (Mar 14, 2007)

Here is a video from me at Wawa the other night: (I'll have a few more clips when I have some more time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myoEan2AFXo

Basically this was my 6th day ever *really *skiing moguls .  Like actually thinking about it instead of zing-zanging my way down.  I consider myself a decent glades skier so I think that helped a lot.  I went from hating moguls last season to absolutely loving them now.


Also, I know basic things like how my legs are too far apart, pole plants suck, etc.  I'm sorta looking for tips on how to improve these things.


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 14, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Here is a video from me at Wawa the other night: (I'll have a few more clips when I have some more time)
> 
> Basically this was my 6th day ever *really *skiing moguls .  Like actually thinking about it instead of zing-zanging my way down.  I consider myself a decent glades skier so I think that helped a lot.  I went from hating moguls last season to absolutely loving them now.
> 
> ...




If you come over to my new forum, http://forums.mogulskiing.net and post this vid, you might get some more advice and thoughts.  But, for starters:

You're definitely on the right track.

First thing that stuck out was the pole plants.  You hold your poles too far apart.  You want to hold them in front of you at all times, as though you are holding a tray... a little more than shoulder-width apart.  Then your plant should just be a flick of the wrist.  Pole plants should never be used as a pivot or as a stopping tool in the bumps.  Just lightly tap the downhill side of the bump.

You'll want to work on tightening your stance.  The best way to do this is to practice on the groomers.   Just focus on getting the skis so close together that your boots are touching each other.  I'll try to get a picture of the tips of my K2 Cabrawlers so you can see what a close stance means!  Once you've mastered making quick rotary turns on the groomers with your skis real tight, then head for a lower pitch bump run, and work your way up.  It will come with practice.

Also, be certain to always stand tall; never crouch.  Make sure you maintain constant shin-to-tongue pressure between your legs and boots, and keep your hips up. 

And, as everyone hears upon asking for bump advice... A&E.  Absorb with your knees when you approach and attack the bump, then extend back into the upright position in the trough.  There are two basic ways to drill A&E: rollers or traversing a low grade bump run.  If you can find some rollers to play on, absorb them as your skis go up them, then extend between them.  Same idea if you can't find rollers... traverse yourself across a bump run, absorbing each bump as your skis hit them, then extend between.  Once you get the feel for it, it will just start to work.  It's one of those epiphanic moments.

Something to remember as you work on your bump technique: don't get carried away with speed.  Technique first, speed later.  Don't try to rip a zipper-line as fast as you can until you've learned the technique first.


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## Marc (Mar 15, 2007)

jack97 said:


> You're killing me! All this talk about bumping. I feel like a sailor stuck on the ship ported next to the harbor town.
> 
> BTW, jack is a noun not a verb or an adjective.



What the hell?  Of course it's a verb (and a noun).  Haven't you ever jacked up a car?

C'mon mang, I'm an engineer, and even I know that.


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## Greg (Mar 15, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> If you come over to my new forum, http://forums.mogulskiing.net and post this vid, you might get some more advice and thoughts.  But, for starters:
> 
> You're definitely on the right track.
> 
> ...



BMM nailed it all. Stance seemed to be your biggest issue. You can't A&E well if you have one ski "walking" up the bump while the other drops in the trough. My advice? Squeeze your knees; your skis will follow. This is something I've been working on this season as well. You look pretty damn good though. Keep at it and ski the bumps a lot even when they're frozen and hard. When you get on hero bumps like you have now, you'll really rip. Those lines look sweet up there.


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## JimG. (Mar 15, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Something to remember as you work on your bump technique: don't get carried away with speed.  Technique first, speed later.  Don't try to rip a zipper-line as fast as you can until you've learned the technique first.



This is really a great tip...something I have to remind myself of at the start of each day. 

Austin, you might want to get a pair of adjustable poles and try shorter pole lengths...those poles you're using look way too long. That might be one reason why your pole touches are so heavy at times and non-existant at others. And it might be why you hold them so far out and not shoulder width apart. Pole movement should be a flick of the wrist, not a flailing of the whole arm.

That said, you have come a long way in bumps.


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## Greg (Mar 15, 2007)

I've got this on the mogulskiing.net forum too, but what the hell. This is from Tuesday night. Low-angle bumps:

http://www.gregblasko.com/skivids/sundown_greg_031307.wmv

Any advice or suggestions are appreciated.


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## bvibert (Mar 15, 2007)

Greg said:


> I've got this on the mogulskiing.net forum too, but what the hell. This is from Tuesday night. Low-angle bumps:
> 
> http://www.gregblasko.com/skivids/sundown_greg_031307.wmv
> 
> Any advice or suggestions are appreciated.



That came out good, now where's the one of me??


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 15, 2007)

JimG. said:


> This is really a great tip...something I have to remind myself of at the start of each day.
> 
> Austin, you might want to get a pair of adjustable poles and try shorter pole lengths...those poles you're using look way too long. That might be one reason why your pole touches are so heavy at times and non-existant at others. And it might be why you hold them so far out and not shoulder width apart. Pole movement should be a flick of the wrist, not a flailing of the whole arm.
> 
> That said, you have come a long way in bumps.



You're right about the poles.  I forgot to mention that.  To determine proper bump pole length, determine the proper groomer length, and take off 4-6".  I'm 5'9" and skiing with 42" poles.  Normal groomer poles for me would be 46 or 48".  I find that the 42" poles are great... they never end up back behind me and getting caught on bumps.


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## awf170 (Mar 15, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> If you come over to my new forum, http://forums.mogulskiing.net and post this vid, you might get some more advice and thoughts.  But, for starters:
> 
> You're definitely on the right track.
> 
> ...



Awesome!  Thanks a ton.   I'll post that vid and a few more on your site later.



Greg said:


> BMM nailed it all. Stance seemed to be your biggest issue. You can't A&E well if you have one ski "walking" up the bump while the other drops in the trough. My advice? Squeeze your knees; your skis will follow. This is something I've been working on this season as well. You look pretty damn good though. Keep at it and ski the bumps a lot even when they're frozen and hard. When you get on hero bumps like you have now, you'll really rip. Those lines look sweet up there.



Yep.  I'll ski anything for bumps.  Since my first real bump skiing experience at Cannon on Feb 20th it is pretty much all I do (and woods,but that's a bit challenging at the mighty Wawa)



JimG. said:


> This is really a great tip...something I have to remind myself of at the start of each day.
> 
> Austin, you might want to get a pair of adjustable poles and try shorter pole lengths...those poles you're using look way too long. That might be one reason why your pole touches are so heavy at times and non-existant at others. And it might be why you hold them so far out and not shoulder width apart. Pole movement should be a flick of the wrist, not a flailing of the whole arm.
> 
> That said, you have come a long way in bumps.



I'll try using my touring polls next time.  I thought those poles were the right size but after watching the video again they are defiantly too long.  Also, wouldn't adjusting your pole size based on how deep the troughs are make sense?



BushMogulMaster said:


> You're right about the poles.  I forgot to mention that.  To determine proper bump pole length, determine the proper groomer length, and take off 4-6".  I'm 5'9" and skiing with 42" poles.  Normal groomer poles for me would be 46 or 48".  I find that the 42" poles are great... they never end up back behind me and getting caught on bumps.



Those are perfect for groomers so I'll give that a shot next time.


Off topic:  Does anyone know how to rotate a video so that I don't have to tilt my head or computer to view it.  Thanks a lot Marc...


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## JimG. (Mar 19, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> You're right about the poles.  I forgot to mention that.  To determine proper bump pole length, determine the proper groomer length, and take off 4-6".  I'm 5'9" and skiing with 42" poles.  Normal groomer poles for me would be 46 or 48".  I find that the 42" poles are great... they never end up back behind me and getting caught on bumps.



I'm 6'2" and skiing with 46" poles...last year I used 48" poles and felt they were still too long. Much happier at 46". 

Like you, no more stuck poles pulling my arm out and back.


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## Greg (Mar 20, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I'm 6'2" and skiing with 46" poles...last year I used 48" poles and felt they were still too long. Much happier at 46".
> 
> Like you, no more stuck poles pulling my arm out and back.



I'm at 47" and I think they might be just a bit too short. I've been trying to stand taller which I think I've been acheiving, at least in low-angle bumps, and now I'm beginning to miss pole plants. 48" is probably right for me.


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## awf170 (Apr 15, 2007)

Here's a video of me at Wildcat yesterday.  I haven't really skied bumps much at all since that Wawa video, but have been skiing woods a decent amount.  Also, I didn't think I was going to be skiing bumps so I'm using long poles.  Opinions?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEWlWJgCBOw


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## Bumpsis (Apr 15, 2007)

That's good skiing but these are not bumps. Find a real bump trail and film it again.


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## Greg (Apr 15, 2007)

Bumpsis said:


> That's good skiing but these are not bumps. Find a real bump trail and film it again.



Well, in Austin's defense, sometimes bumps look much tamer in video (especially at crappy YouTube resolution)...

Nice agressive skiing, Austin.


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## awf170 (Apr 15, 2007)

Greg said:


> Well, in Austin's defense, sometimes bumps look much tamer in video (especially at crappy YouTube resolution)...
> 
> Nice agressive skiing, Austin.



Yeah, that video does make them look smaller.  Though they were still pretty small and pretty spread out.



Bumpsis said:


> That's good skiing but these are not bumps. Find a real bump trail and film it again.



Wildcat doesn't have real bumps.  Those were some of the biggest on the mountain.


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## eatskisleep (Apr 15, 2007)

Well in Austin's defense here is a picture which does better justice then the video.


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## Bumpsis (Apr 15, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Yeah, that video does make them look smaller.  Though they were still pretty small and pretty spread out.
> 
> 
> 
> Wildcat doesn't have real bumps.  Those were some of the biggest on the mountain.



I am sorry that my comment came accross as disparaging - it was not meant to be.
Austin's technique in that vid looked pretty strong and the terrain was just not challenging enough for any glaring mistakes to be really evident. 

More difficult moguls ,steeper, tighter, deeply rutted - take your pick, would provide a better opportunity to note and point out room for improvement.

I could have used some constructive critisism yesterday at Sunapee. Their mogul run on Flying Goose was in great shape. My legs are cooked today. I hope that theye get some white ppt and stay open for another week.


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 16, 2007)

Here's a pic of me skiing at the Mogul Logic camp at Sugarbush in March:


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## Greg (Apr 16, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Here's a pic of me skiing at the Mogul Logic camp at Sugarbush in March:



Not enough absorbtion... :lol:


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Not enough absorbtion... :lol:



Geeeeez, Greg... that's all you got? :wink:  C'mon, at least give me something original! :lol:

Actually, that was the run after I kneed myself in the chin.  I stayed in my zipperline though!

On a more serious note, something I learned from the camp is that there is such thing as too much absorption.  There's a balance, and too much absorption is just as bad as not enough.


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## Greg (Apr 16, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Geeeeez, Greg... that's all you got? :wink:  C'mon, at least give me something original! :lol:



Okay. Take some growth hormone. You look like you're only 4 feet tall...

Better?


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## BushMogulMaster (Apr 16, 2007)

Greg said:


> Okay. Take some growth hormone. You look like you're only 4 feet tall...
> 
> Better?



:lol:

No no no... that would be absorption.  You know, the stuff you said I should have more of? :wink:


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## 2knees (Apr 16, 2007)

Awf, looks pretty good.  only thing i can say is that you're left pole/arm is just sorta dead weight.  you only seem to plant with the right hand.  big key to work on there as you will get out of kilter on steeper/bigger bumps.  one other thing to try to minimize is the hip check kind of turn.  go right at the bump absorb the face and get the turn going on the top to the backside.


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## 2knees (Apr 16, 2007)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Here's a pic of me skiing at the Mogul Logic camp at Sugarbush in March:




got to throw a flag on this one.

15 yards, illegal use of talent.


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