# Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls



## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

The "Ragged HSQ Thread" has drifted in many directions and I thought it might be useful to open a new thread.  In that thread, http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ng-at-HSQ-to-replace-Spear-this-summer/page27, "deadheadskier" advocated for seeding moguls because "there is not enough natural snow."

Somehow, I feel the sport is too automated.  Most of us can agree that machine made snow is great base, but once there is adequate snow, the woods and the few natural snow trails provide the sweetest ways down the hill.

Now when it comes to moguls, the most important thing to their development is being skied in by good skiers.  At Mad River Glen, the locals complain about how the tele skiers mess up the moguls, while at many other areas, the snowboarders get blamed.

"Outer Limits" at Killington has a reputation among the wannabes to be the ultimate bump run.  The result, the mogul pattern gets so messed up that it is difficult to stay in rhythm.

One of the problems that smaller areas have: There are days when mogul runs are unskiable and the small number of mogul skiers make it of questionable value to keep the mogul run, when it could be very skiable if it were groomed (read: flattened).  A few seasons ago, Crotched Mountain's GM after a 6 inch storm end in a 1/2 inch of icy (i.e. nasty breakable crust) told Snowsports: "If you want to keep your mogul field, you are going to have to groom it by side-stepping it."  About 20 instructors did so and we kept the mogul run!

IMO, seeded bumps are a cheat and take away one of the few remaining natural aspects of the sport.  Comments?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

We have had this thread / discussion about 97 times on here if you do a search.  :lol:

Any bump fan will prefer good natural bumps over seeded.  The only Southern NH ski areas with decent bumps (consistently) are places that seed (Sunapee) or hammer a particular trail with snowmaking (Pats).  As for the rest, Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock.....awful bumps 95% of the season.  I've had season passes at all 3 to experience this.

Seeded bumps are easy to make and require less snowmaking and groomer man power than building a terrain park.  It only provides another terrain option for people to enjoy.  One need only look at CT's tiny Ski Sundown to see the success they've had in offering a seeded bump product.


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## jack97 (Nov 25, 2014)

I don't view a seeded bump run as a cheat. IMO, its another type of terrain skiers and riders can try.

As far as an area seeding them or letting them naturally form. Letting them form with natural snow, rider and skiers is a crap shoot. Its not a given what type of formation and cadence will form. The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched. 

When the field gets seeded, most places will pack down a base for the bumps, so its protected from the winter thaw. The seeding itself protects the formation from skiers/rider trying to learn how to ski them. What usually happens is the field gets split into sections with easy bumps while the other section which has one or two lines that forms nicely with deep troughs. This way, the folks still learning can still ski the easier section. As the OP knows, progression is one of the keys to getting better in skiing and riding. 
When the bumps gets bullet proof, it's still skiable as long there's no flat long sections. In this case, you have rely on good absorption and extension to control the decent down.


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## Not Sure (Nov 25, 2014)

jack97 said:


> I don't view a seeded bump run as a cheat. IMO, its another type of terrain skiers and riders can try.
> 
> As far as an area seeding them or letting them naturally form. Letting them form with natural snow, rider and skiers is a crap shoot. Its not a given what type of formation and cadence will form. The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched.
> 
> ...



Genetically Modified  Snow ...LOL


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

jack97 said:


> ... The other problem I see with natural trails is the troughs will burn out due to a warm spell. I see this a lot at Crotched.
> 
> ...


Troughs burning through are particularly a problem at CM where the main mogul run, the east side of Pluto's, is beyond the reach of the snowguns which are on the west side of the trail.  Two seasons ago, UFO/Equinox was nicely bumped up after being buried in machine-made-snow.  I'm not sure why that was not done last season.  Half the problem with judging mogul runs of smaller ski areas are the policy decisions made by management on a year-to-year, sometimes day-to-day, basis.

To deadheadskier: Sorry about starting an oft repeated thread.  I suggest that the quantity of responses would indicate that people still want to talk about it.


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## gmcunni (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Any bump fan will prefer good natural bumps over seeded.



i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural.


for me bumps are like boobs.. natural or man-made, if i get to play with them i'm happy.


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## Quietman (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> Two seasons ago, UFO/Equinox was nicely bumped up after being buried in machine-made-snow.  I'm not sure why that was not done last season.



UFO was at least 1/2 bumped for most of Feb-March last year. It was flattened a couple of times after thaw freeze cycles.  The bumps in the woods were amazing in March!


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## SkiFanE (Nov 25, 2014)

Where I ski (SR) there is one seeded bump run, for the freestyle program and it's rarely open to the public.  So my experience in seeded bumps is nil.  Skiing is fun when it's unpredictable and natural.  Those who can't find bumps day in and day out are not looking hard enough.  Or maybe they should get used to snaking down 4' of ungroomed on side of trail lol, that'll get you bumps - at least in the grooming mecca of SR.  If you need seeded bumps to actually 'do' bumps, then you really can't 'do' bumps  :razz:


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

SkiFanE said:


> Those who can't find bumps day in and day out are not looking hard enough.



You ski Sunday River.  Easy to say from there.  I had a pass there for a couple of years too and never complained.  I could always find something resembling a mogul and quite often there were good bumps to be had at various places around the hill. Areas like Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock, you often don't find squat and if you do, they tend to be GS push piles.   And at Sunday River if there are days where even the sides of the trails weren't a little bumpy and the woods aren't skiable?  Well, you have long steeper trails to keep you entertained for the day.  The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier.

That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

Quietman said:


> UFO was at least 1/2 bumped for most of Feb-March last year. It was flattened a couple of times after thaw freeze cycles.  The bumps in the woods were amazing in March!



UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed.  Seed the skiers left side of the trail with 3-4 lanes, leave the skiers right side groomed for the non-bumpers.  You've got the fan guns right there to refresh things when it gets too scratchy.


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## SkiFanE (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You ski Sunday River.  Easy to say from there.  I had a pass there for a couple of years too and never complained.  I could always find something resembling a mogul and quite often there were good bumps to be had at various places around the hill. Areas like Crotched, Ragged, Gunstock, you often don't find squat and if you do, they tend to be GS push piles.   And at Sunday River if there are days where even the sides of the trails weren't a little bumpy and the woods aren't skiable?  Well, you have long steeper trails to keep you entertained for the day.  The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier.
> 
> That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.



Why I'm not at any of those places.  Really...  About 20 years ago husband and I got free Gunstock tickets.  Hadn't been since I was a little kid...so we took a day trip.  Within 30mins we knew our day was wasted...so small.  So we went to their really cute, and cheap, pub...got ourselves liquored up with black russians by 11am and then had a pretty fun day  

Don't mean to be crass/snotty...whatever... but there is a GOOD reason we ski at a big mountain, we like variety and challenge.   So yeah...seed away at the small places if that's all that can be done.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

I gave it a shot for a couple of years with passes at all of those places due to the convenience factor, but the lack of bumps has had me put my wallet away.  I read about Sundown and how the CT skiers get their little hill down the street with some bumps to enjoy and say, "Why not here in NH?"

This year I'm roaming.  Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars.


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## bvibert (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> We have had this thread / discussion about 97 times on here if you do a search.  :lol:



At least that many times! :lol:  When I saw the title I wondered how old the thread was..



deadheadskier said:


> That's why I think the smaller areas need to seed a trail and manage it like they do their terrain parks.



Agreed.  Without seeding at smaller areas (particularly those without a lot of natural snow) the bumps would be crappy at best, or most likely non-existent.


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 25, 2014)

I like the seeded bumps at Sunapee.  They are fun.  Preferable to no bumps.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?

gmcunni said: "i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural."
Those kinds of seeded bumps are mostly for competition and uniformity is the watch word.  IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40.

Amen to SkiFanE's comment, "If you need seeded bumps to actually 'do' bumps, then you really can't 'do' bumps."

To the comment, "The non-mogul / non-tree terrain at Crotched, Gunstock, Ragged get's real boring, real fast for an advanced skier."
Anyone getting bored at those areas doesn't understand the spiritual aspects of skiing.  Want to know more? Check http:/SkiKabbalah.com/

deadheadskier said, "UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed..."
Actually, they seeded the east side of Magnitude (a.k.a. The Upper Park, a.k.a. the Valley Chair Lift Line) last winter.  It never gained popularity.

deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."
Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.


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## Smellytele (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?



Wildcat, Cannon have no runout.

[/QUOTE]deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."
Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.[/QUOTE]

upper to middle Hardscrabble are great bump runs as well and when Taft is bumped up running into those.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat, Cannon have no runout.


With Cannon, I was thinking of the Peabody side.  If you come down the tram side, you are right.

deadheadskier said, "... Next year, I'm thinking Cannon get's my pass dollars."


> Cannon is great, but the bump runs off Zoomer are less than 1000 vertical.





> upper to middle Hardscrabble are great bump runs as well and when Taft is bumped up running into those.


A lot of seasons, these runs aren't even open!  I first skied Cannon in 1969.  Last season was the first time I ever skied the Tram Lift Line!  Places without machine-made snow at Cannon can be pretty marginal.  Two seasons ago, Mittersill was open for less than 10 days!


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## Scruffy (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. ...



I don't agree with that. While I can, and will, find fun in smaller mountains, that my grandmother can lap without stopping, I really enjoy the variety in terrain at different elevations a bigger area can offer; and stopping to smell the bark (aka roses) is fine too.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> To the "big area freaks": If you're not doing t2b's non-stop, the mountain is too big for you. And beyond Stowe and Mad River among the large areas, and Whaleback for the small areas, who doesn't have significant runouts if you want to ski the full vertical of an area?
> *
> So because someone stops and doesn't ski TtB a mountain is too big for them?  First I ever heard someone say that.  Big difference between taking a 20 second break and corralling skiing partners vs. riding a lift for 5-10 minutes between active skiing times.   Also, plenty of the small areas have bad run outs as well.  Crotched and Ragged's aren't too bad, but on par with many larger areas.  Gunstock has perhaps the worst run out of any mountain in NH.*
> 
> ...



Okay, so we've established that not only are you against seeded bumps, but you also have very little tolerance for other skiers who enjoy them and have a preference for different kinds of skiing than you do.   

In your quest to find your personal Zen, you might also make an effort towards respecting and accepting the diverse interests of everyone else who enjoys the sport.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 25, 2014)

With all the thaw, rain, freeze cycles early last season it was hard to find bumps anywhere. They had to groom everything otherwise it was unskiable. I'm a K regular & K is known for some of their bump runs. Last Jan. you couldn't find a bump on the mountain.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay, so we've established that not only are you against seeded bumps, but you also have very little tolerance for other skiers who enjoy them and have a preference for different kinds of skiing than you do.
> 
> In your quest to find your personal Zen, you might also make an effort towards respecting and accepting the diverse interests of everyone else who enjoys the sport.


I find your posting to be a personal attack that borders on offensive.

I see the purpose of any of these forums to stimulate discussion.  Give opinions and listen to others AND to do so without making personal attacks.  If you feel that I made a personal attack on you, I apologize.  It was not my intent. If you don't agree with my ideas, you are free to comment.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 25, 2014)

Wow.  We haven't had a new troll in a while....


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> I find your posting to be a personal attack that borders on offensive.
> 
> I see the purpose of any of these forums to stimulate discussion.  Give opinions and listen to others AND to do so without making personal attacks.  If you feel that I made a personal attack on you, I apologize.  It was not my intent. If you don't agree with my ideas, you are free to comment.



I did comment.  Your comments were very much intolerant of other people's skiing preferences.  That's not a "personal attack".  That's calling it as I see it.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 25, 2014)




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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I did comment.  Your comments were very much intolerant of other people's skiing preferences.  That's not a "personal attack".  That's calling it as I see it.


If you had stopped at your comments, I had no problem.  They are your opinions, just as my comments were my opinions.  Once you get beyond the numbers of skiing: Vertical drop, number of lifts, distance of travel. etc.; things get subjective in a big hurry.  I don't find you intolerant because you disagree with me.  I don't see why you see me as intolerant because I disagree with you.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> If you had stopped at your comments, I had no problem.  They are your opinions, just as my comments were my opinions.  Once you get beyond the numbers of skiing: Vertical drop, number of lifts, distance of travel. etc.; things get subjective in a big hurry.  I don't find you intolerant because you disagree with me.  I don't see why you see me as intolerant because I disagree with you.


I'm with you.


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## KevinF (Nov 25, 2014)

The area I ski the most is Stowe, so my experiences tend to be centered there.  I always like what Stowe used to say on their interactive trail map about Starr:  "We've never groomed it and we never will".  

But Stowe has the skiers to make good natural bumps.  Their intermediate bump runs (Gulch and T-Line) have some of the most god-awful shaped bumps I've seen.  I think they're harder to ski than the famous bump runs (Starr, Goat, National, Bypass, etc.) because at least those have a rhythm.

So I can see at the smaller areas that seeded bumps are needed or are at least preferable as they don't have enough good skiers to make good bump lines.

The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps.  Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc.  Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way.  Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

Um, saying you want to hold mogul skiing coaches criminally responsible for injuries to their athletes?   No, not intolerant at all.......

Calling people who enjoy big mountains, "big mountain freaks" who are skiing mountains to large for them if they don't ski TtB?  No, not intolerant at all......

You weren't simply stating your opinion on what your skiing preferences are, you were putting down the preferences of others.  That's intolerance my friend.


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## bvibert (Nov 25, 2014)

KevinF said:


> The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps.  Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc.  Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way.  Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?



Not all seeded bumps are a consistent shape/size for the whole run.

I like skiing natural terrain, if it's available then that's what I'll be skiing.  But, most of my skiing is at a small mountain in CT, natural terrain wouldn't be an option for more than 1 or 2 days every 2-3+ years.  Even when we get a good amount of snow it usually melts before the next snow event.  It sucks, and I wish I was in a position in life where I could live closer to snow, or even make more frequent trips to bigger mountains.  so, I have to make due with what I have.  I'm fortunate enough that my little mountain in CT seeds moguls, because otherwise I probably would be long past bored and wouldn't hardly ski at all.  

Don't let the term seeded moguls fool you, though.  In this case, the resulting moguls are NOT the uniform moguls you'd expect to see in an Olympic course.  The way they start the seeds is not like I've seen documented anywhere else on the web.  There's no measuring, no marking, etc..  The groomer operator just gets in the groomer and starts making small piles with the blade, starting from the top, making one row across the hill, then moving down and making another row, alternating roughly between where the bumps above were.  The process is continued until he reaches the bottom.  What you end up with is small piles, with flat space in between them.  Most people who see them in the seed stage can't believe that they'll ever resemble moguls, but they do.  Early season they'll often get top coated with snowmaking (or hopefully natural snow), which adds it's own amount of irregularity as some bumps will get more than others.  Late season all that's needed is some sun to soften the snow a bit, and (it both cases) some skiers to ski them in.  The seeds are just suggestions on where to turn, sometimes they move as people ski, sometimes two seeds become one bump, sometimes a zipper line forms, while other times the line meanders, etc..  We also have several bump loving snowboarders who help bust things up, and of course a whole crap ton of novices who like to try them as well.  

The result is very irregular bumps that are quite fun, and challenging to ski, and they help me get ready to ski natural terrain when I get the opportunity!


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## SkiFanE (Nov 25, 2014)

KevinF said:


> The other thing about seeded bumps vs. natural bumps.  Natural bumps change size and rhythm as the pitch of the hill changes as skiers naturally start making bigger or smaller turns, etc.  Seeded bumps are the same size the whole way.  Fine for a perfectly consistent pitch, but how common are perfectly consistent pitches?



That's what I love about natural, never know what you'll get.  Why my SL skis are perfect in bumps - I can turn on a dime and avoid anything and also take tighter turns than others and stay on top of bump rather than in the icy trough.  One run can have quite a variety of bumps.  The only run that I don't usually like too much at SR is Agony - every yahoo goes down it, so it has the worst shaped/spaced bumps most days - tis a shame, but lots of other choices most days.


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 25, 2014)

Seeded bumps can make a crappy skier able to actually ski bumps...

So... yeah...  they are easier..


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## Domeskier (Nov 25, 2014)

Natural bumps formed by competent bump skiers will resemble properly seeded bumps.  The seeds just let the clueless know where they should be turning.  That being said, there are only a few places with enough competent bump skiers to allow decent natural bumps to form.


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## Old Duderino (Nov 25, 2014)

bvibert said:


> Don't let the term seeded moguls fool you, though.  In this case, the resulting moguls are NOT the uniform moguls you'd expect to see in an Olympic course.  The way they start the seeds is not like I've seen documented anywhere else on the web.  There's no measuring, no marking, etc..  The groomer operator just gets in the groomer and starts making small piles with the blade, starting from the top, making one row across the hill, then moving down and making another row, alternating roughly between where the bumps above were.  The process is continued until he reaches the bottom.  What you end up with is small piles, with flat space in between them.  Most people who see them in the seed stage can't believe that they'll ever resemble moguls, but they do.  Early season they'll often get top coated with snowmaking (or hopefully natural snow), which adds it's own amount of irregularity as some bumps will get more than others.  Late season all that's needed is some sun to soften the snow a bit, and (it both cases) some skiers to ski them in.  The seeds are just suggestions on where to turn, sometimes they move as people ski, sometimes two seeds become one bump, sometimes a zipper line forms, while other times the line meanders, etc..  We also have several bump loving snowboarders who help bust things up, and of course a whole crap ton of novices who like to try them as well.
> 
> The result is very irregular bumps that are quite fun, and challenging to ski, and they help me get ready to ski natural terrain when I get the opportunity!



Thank you for explaining the bump seeding process as I had no idea what the heck everyone is talking about.  I'm sure I've skied plenty of seeded and non-seeded bump runs and never giving a second thought whether they were natural or man made.  I would guess most of my local mid-atlantic hills seed their bump runs.

While I love all bump runs on skis Outer Limits is one of the few bump runs I can think of my kids and I enjoy on a snowboard.  Is OL natural or seeded?


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier took exception to my comment earlier in this thread with regard to competition mogul skiing when I said: "IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40."

To expand that thought, if the coaches want to ski that way, that's fine.  They are adults; they know the risks.  However, I believe that young aspiring athletes will try to do whatever their coaches tell them to do, with little concern for the long lasting damage - and lower level coaches follow whatever they see others in higher levels of the sport do.  Don't believe me? Check out the NFL.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?

What about traditional ski racing?


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## bvibert (Nov 25, 2014)

Old Duderino said:


> Thank you for explaining the bump seeding process as I had no idea what the heck everyone is talking about.  I'm sure I've skied plenty of seeded and non-seeded bump runs and never giving a second thought whether they were natural or man made.  I would guess most of my local mid-atlantic hills seed their bump runs.



Like I said, the process I outlined above is not typical, that I know of.  There are much more efficient methods to seed using a cat, that would yield much more uniform bumps.  You can also seed without using a cat by placing markers (racing gate poles or brushes) in the snow and having competent bump skiers ski around them.

This video isn't the best, but shows the groomer seeding method that I've most commonly found online:


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## SkiFanE (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?
> 
> What about traditional ski racing?



I didn't take him to be against the sport, but against the training and competing on seeded bumps which have no variability and cause repetitive stress injuries.  I don't know much about the sport, but I can see what he means.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> So, as I asked earlier; with the unfavorable opinion you have of competition bump skiing, do you think the USSA should drop the sport?
> 
> What about traditional ski racing?



With regard to competition bump skiing, I do think it should be dropped, because the more people who copy that style of skiing, the more dangerous the sport will become to its participants.  

No need to repeat, but we had a thread on SnowJournal titled, "Sports vs. Extreme Sports vs. Exhibitions" http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic20183 that I think summarizes my thoughts on the matter pretty well. My sense is that competition bump skiing is somewhere between extreme sports and exhibitions.

I preface this with "IMO".  The only problem with traditional racing is that equipment and techniques have resulted the ability to go at speeds that in too many cases have resulted in career ending falls.  To the extent that the course setters place the gates in ways that are reasonably safe for the participants, any of the 4 disciplines of Alpine skiing are fine.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> deadheadskier took exception to my comment earlier in this thread with regard to competition mogul skiing when I said: "IMO, that's not skiing and the coaches should be held criminally responsible for the knee replacement surgery that most of the competitors will need by age 40."
> 
> To expand that thought, if the coaches want to ski that way, that's fine.  They are adults; they know the risks.  However, I believe that young aspiring athletes will try to do whatever their coaches tell them to do, with little concern for the long lasting damage - and lower level coaches follow whatever they see others in higher levels of the sport do.  Don't believe me? Check out the NFL.



WTF?

I like both seeded and natural bumps.  Seeded bumps are more rhythmic, and you can ski them at higher speed.  Natural bumps vary in size and spacing, and require a bit of ad-libbing.  IMO, spacing is more important than whether a run is seeded or natural.  Skiing a bump run where you can link 2 or 3 turns in between moguls is a pisser. 




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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

Hmmm.......interesting.

How are Lindsey Vonn's knees these days?  Or was that the course setter to blame?

What was that I read about Bode in the paper just last week?  Something about back surgery?

Should their coaches be held criminally responsible for their injuries?

How many people have died during competition throughout competitive bump skiing's history?  Yes, zero

And ski racing?  several


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## Domeskier (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> With regard to competition bump skiing, I do think it should be dropped, because the more people who copy that style of skiing, the more dangerous the sport will become to its participants



It's the jumping component of competitive bump skiing that is most likely to result in a blown knee.  Absorbing bumps even at world cup speeds is no worse for your knees than sprinting down a track if you do it right.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> WTF?
> 
> I like both seeded and natural bumps.  Seeded bumps are more rhythmic, and you can ski them at higher speed.  Natural bumps vary in size and spacing, and require a bit of ad-libbing.  IMO, spacing is more important than whether a run is seeded or natural.  Skiing a bump run where you can link 2 or 3 turns in between moguls is a pisser.


While I agree with what you said above, what does it have to do with competitive bump skiing?


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> While I agree with what you said above, what does it have to do with competitive bump skiing?



Nothing.  

Refer back to the title of the thread you started. 


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Hmmm.......interesting.
> 
> How are Lindsey Vonn's knees these days?  Or was that the course setter to blame?
> 
> ...


I get the idea you won't like my answer, but you asked:
1. From what I have observed, I believe that 90% of the most serious racing injuries can be pinned on the course setters rather than the coaches.
2. Competitive bump skiing is too new a sport to have built a necrology list.


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## Blanton (Nov 25, 2014)

There is close to a 30 page pdf floating around the internet of how to construct a course that meets current requirements. It covers how to do this with a machine, as well as being skied in... interesting read for those of you interested.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Nothing.
> 
> Refer back to the title of the thread you started.


Got it! So I hijacked my own thread


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> I get the idea you won't like my answer, but you asked:
> 1. From what I have observed, I believe that 90% of the most serious racing injuries can be pinned on the course setters rather than the coaches.
> 2. Competitive bump skiing is too new a sport to have built a necrology list.



Competitive bump skiing has been around for over 30 years.  I'd say that's a decent sample size. 

and so the blame goes to the course setters?  None on the athletes making a bad turn?  

What's your take on terrain parks?  Get rid of those too?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

I don't know how we got to competition bump skiing from my desire to see seeded bumps at small ski areas.  I haven't competed in a bump competition in 20 years.  No desire to. I just like skiing bumps and seeding provides bumps when they would normally not be there.  How many people skiing seeded bumps do so in a WC style anyways? 2%? 5%?  It ain't much.  Must people positively suck at skiing bumps. As has been mentioned, plenty of places with natural bumps from great skiers that have nice zipper lines.  Should the ski patrol stand up top and keep the children off of them? 

Will Ski Sundown have a World Cup bump training program on Satan's Staircase this winter???  If so, those coaches better lawyer up.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> None on the athletes making a bad turn?
> 
> What's your take on terrain parks?  Get rid of those too?



In Indianapolis, there is accommodation for "bad turns".  Why not on a skiing race course?

Terrain Parks are fine. Not sure why you think I'd object to them, 

but *Savemeasammy* pointed out that the title of the thread is *Seeded Moguls vs. Natural Moguls* and we are off topic!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> Terrain Parks are fine. Not sure why you think I'd object to them,



Because there is far greater risk of injury in what occurs in a terrain park than on any kind of mogul trail - seeded or natural.  Your whole extreme sport / exhibition theory.  That applies much more to folks hucking themselves across 50 foot gaps and sliding on a metal rail in a terrain park, than folks who just want to ski some bumps.

Pretty certain your friends in ski patrol where you teach would say, "Yup, terrain parks is way more dangerous than a bump trail."


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Because there is far greater risk of injury in what occurs in a terrain park than on any kind of mogul trail - seeded or natural.  Your whole extreme sport / exhibition theory.  That applies much more to folks hucking themselves across 50 foot gaps and sliding on a metal rail in a terrain park, than folks who just want to ski some bumps.
> 
> Pretty certain your friends in ski patrol where you teach would say, "Yup, terrain parks is way more dangerous than a bump trail."


Danger for an individual jump or trick in a terrain park; or skiing a mogul run isn't the issue I was raising - but I think I've had enough and hopefully, we can move on and agree to disagree.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 25, 2014)

Yeah, no chance of you ever convincing me a bump coach should be criminally liable for their athletes injuries.


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## gorgonzola (Nov 25, 2014)

I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.

I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!


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## Not Sure (Nov 25, 2014)

gorgonzola said:


> I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.
> 
> I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!



Looks nice...I have yet to ski at Blue since they started seeding. 
It's been a long time since I was in a bump competion , seeded bumps definatley even up the odds.


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## jack97 (Nov 25, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> Natural bumps formed by competent bump skiers will resemble properly seeded bumps.  The seeds just let the clueless know where they should be turning.  That being said, there are only a few places with enough competent bump skiers to allow decent natural bumps to form.



qft... 

below is the course at whaleback, i believe its got skied in with turns only. Several years back I was fortunate enough to get some tips from Evan Dybvig, a two time Olympian and freestyle coach at whaleback. He said that his courses are never made by a machine. He sets the turns and has his team follow him to form the moguls.


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## jack97 (Nov 25, 2014)

haha... with all the hyperboles (and yes, that's my word of the week) flying around, I figure I throw this in.  Nelson Carmicheal is one of the earliest Olympians to compete in this sport. Wiki said he was born 1965, the vid below was made somewhere around 2013 which puts him around 48, his knees still look fine. I think if he wanted to, he could have used more absorption in that vid but with that bump field and his skill set, it was not needed.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 25, 2014)

jack97 said:


> qft...
> 
> below is the course at whaleback, i believe its got skied in with turns only. Several years back I was fortunate enough to get some tips from Evan Dybvig, a two time Olympian and freestyle coach at whaleback. He said that his courses are never made by a machine. He sets the turns and has his team follow him to form the moguls.



IMO - these are basically "seeded" bumps, just done differently.  I've skied these bumps at the whale. They are pretty sweet. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jack97 (Nov 25, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> IMO - these are basically "seeded" bumps, just done differently.  I've skied these bumps at the whale. They are pretty sweet.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I talked to evan at length about this, he hates seeded courses. from what I gather, he has coached the freestyle team since it opened up to last year. so I'm mostly sure he made them by setting the tempo.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 25, 2014)

jack97 said:


> I talked to evan at length about this, he hates seeded courses. from what I gather, he has coached the freestyle team since it opened up to last year. so I'm mostly sure he made them by setting the tempo.



I guess what I mean is that since they were not created spontaneously/naturally by skiers and riders, then I consider them man-made or seeded.  I think it's hard to argue that the net result is the same: nice rhythmic lines.  Maybe he has a different term other than "seeding", but they definitely aren't natural.  

Fwiw, they sometimes ski-in bumps at pats, too.  It's a nice change of pace.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 25, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I guess what I mean is that since they were not created spontaneously/naturally by skiers and riders, then I consider them man-made or seeded.  I think it's hard to argue that the net result is the same: nice rhythmic lines.  Maybe he has a different term other than "seeding", but they definitely aren't natural.
> 
> Fwiw, they sometimes ski-in bumps at pats, too.  It's a nice change of pace.
> 
> ...



Agreed. That line looks pretty amazing though!


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## Tin (Nov 25, 2014)

gorgonzola said:


> I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.
> 
> I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!



Stevie Wonder could zip line that. Making it a little easy.


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## Brad J (Nov 25, 2014)

Well I blew my ACL on seeded bumps 16 years ago at Waterville Valley so I am not a fan. with that said , seeded moguls are not as much of a challenge as natural bumps for the reasons that Kevin F stated earlier. Part of the fun for me in natural bumps is finding a good line and staying with it. With seeded bumps it a matter of speed control. either way its all fun. FYI Joshua your premiss on the liability of ski coaches is both sad and laughable.


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## joshua segal (Nov 25, 2014)

Brad J said:


> ...
> FYI Joshua your premiss (sic) on the liability of ski coaches is both sad and laughable.


You've got to at least quote me correctly before you disagree with me.


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## jack97 (Nov 25, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Maybe he has a different term other than "seeding", but they definitely aren't natural.




It's called skills, imo


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## jack97 (Nov 26, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> deadheadskier said, "UFO is the perfect trail at Crotched for them to seed..."
> Actually, they seeded the east side of Magnitude (a.k.a. The Upper Park, a.k.a. the Valley Chair Lift Line) last winter.  It never gained popularity.



not my intent to pile on but imo, the seeding exp never caught on because upper park is essentially a terrain park. after the bumps, there's limited terrain for skiing since the big jumps take up the width of trails below. so it gets the major eye contact by park rats only. also, the seed formation was a narrow section and in a trench due to the snow guard formed by grooming. you can see them on chair ride up but it can easily be missed when you enter the trail. i know i missed them a couple of times when the crotch put them in two years back. 

having said that, i have to give props to them for putting in rollers right in front of the lodge. its something i use when other places don't have a bump run up yet.


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## gorgonzola (Nov 26, 2014)

Tin said:


> Stevie Wonder could zip line that. Making it a little easy.



yep nice and easy, just lot's of fun and challenging enough for the first weekend back on the snow!
let's see a pic of the volkswagen's you were ripping last weekend...


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## Tin (Nov 26, 2014)

For this time of year any moguls are great.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 26, 2014)

gorgonzola said:


> let's see a pic of the volkswagen's you were ripping last weekend...



Centerline, Stowe


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## SkiFanE (Nov 26, 2014)

jack97 said:


> haha... with all the hyperboles (and yes, that's my word of the week) flying around, I figure I throw this in.  Nelson Carmicheal is one of the earliest Olympians to compete in this sport. Wiki said he was born 1965, the vid below was made somewhere around 2013 which puts him around 48, his knees still look fine. I think if he wanted to, he could have used more absorption in that vid but with that bump field and his skill set, it was not needed.



he's my age. I've never competed but been skiing bumps every winter since I was early 20s.  Except for a twist from getting caught in tree last winter, never had a problem with my knees. Knock on wood.  Bad knees are not a given for bumps and maybe my continual long winters in them has strengthened them. I noticed skiing after my twist last winter (being extra conscious of it) that it's so easy to get lazy in a turn and overuse your knee - rather than your quads pulling your leg to turn. So just being on top of your form and being aligned protects the knee I believe.  (I don't know much anatomy so I don't know exactly which leg muscles are used in turns - just that it's easy to overuse the knee rather than the leg muscles).  12-15 spring bump runs last weekend and only my lower back ached end of day, not my knees.


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## Geezer (Nov 27, 2014)

Tin said:


> Stevie Wonder could zip line that. Making it a little easy.



There's also another, longer pitch of bumps that continues down the trail that's not visible in that photo.  It will be big fun tomorrow!


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## machski (Nov 27, 2014)

As for natural bumps, a few studies have been done about how the mogul field "moves" as the days go by.  This is a short compilation of time lapsed photos and shows how moguls actually migrate up the trail over time.  Kind of cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpUqXqTwIeQ


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## Blanton (Nov 27, 2014)

gorgonzola said:


> I think the seeded bumps and modern technique (pre-compression ect) are much easier on the body than old school technique. To lazy to look for youtubes but compare an old glen plake vid to a recent world cup comp, way more body slamming.  I prefer good natural to seeded but was more than happy to have 4 seeded lines at blue opening weekend - sunday we had buttery spring bumps!


  Wanted to hit the Blue Mountain contest for a few years now.  I have raced downhill bikes there and thought the place had nice square/ steep runs that could ski in great.  It's a tough call from Ohio...  Holiday Valley is three hours and the additional drive time to Blue makes Killington far more attractive.   Looks like a lot of fun and a lot of hurt for an opening weekend!


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## Greg (Dec 1, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> i'm not sure but seem to recall Greg making a passionate argument that seeded bumps were preferable over natural.



Hardly. But somewhere along the line, people seemed to draw that conclusion. I like *good lines*, whether they be seeded or natural. Ya'll are still debating this?


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## Not Sure (Dec 1, 2014)

machski said:


> As for natural bumps, a few studies have been done about how the mogul field "moves" as the days go by.  This is a short compilation of time lapsed photos and shows how moguls actually migrate up the trail over time.  Kind of cool
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpUqXqTwIeQ


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## Scruffy (Dec 1, 2014)

Greg said:


> Hardly. But somewhere along the line, people seemed to draw that conclusion. I like_ good lines_, whether they be seeded or natural. *Ya'll are still debating this?*



Nothing else to talk about around here it seems, but the same old discussions that pop up year-over-year. That and politics, and snide remarks to one another. So yeah, the internet hasn't changed.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2014)

Greg said:


> Hardly. But somewhere along the line, people seemed to draw that conclusion. I like *good lines*, whether they be seeded or natural. Ya'll are still debating this?



I'm still making the case for some of the Southern NH areas to seed some bumps like Sundown.  7th season here and still no sign.   Only wrinkle is now a new forum member thinks mogul coaches should be criminally charged for injuring their athletes.  

That's the only change.  The debate has now taken Seeded vs. Natural bumps into the the US Court system.


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## gmcunni (Dec 1, 2014)

Greg said:


> Hardly. But somewhere along the line, people seemed to draw that conclusion. I like *good lines*, whether they be seeded or natural.


great,  now i have to go and find it.... there goes my evening.


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## Greg (Dec 1, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> great,  now i have to go and find it.... there goes my evening.



:lol: Knock yourself out. Out of thirty some odd thousand posts, surely only 29,500 were mogul-related.  Who knows though....might have alluded to something about seeded bumps being preferable at some point, but it was likely in the context of a particular ski area. When skiing somewhere that has any sort of decent natty bumps and natural snow, I'm probably not going to be strictly lapping a bump course. Oh wait, I forgot. I support seeded bumps so I must not know how to ski natural moguls...

Seriously, this debate is so stupid. Good lines are good lines. Anyone that thinks there's a difference probably needs more practice.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 1, 2014)

When is Satan's Vagina opening????


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## gorgonzola (Dec 2, 2014)

Blanton said:


> Wanted to hit the Blue Mountain contest for a few years now.  I have raced downhill bikes there and thought the place had nice square/ steep runs that could ski in great.  It's a tough call from Ohio...  Holiday Valley is three hours and the additional drive time to Blue makes Killington far more attractive.   Looks like a lot of fun and a lot of hurt for an opening weekend!



The bump and jump is a good time, my son and I do it every year. Not sure it's worth a drive from ohio but would be a fun stop if you can parlay I into an east coast mountain tour. blue has really stepped up their bump game over the last few years with the lines above on opening day and bumps on barney's, nightmare, chute and challenge at any given time

junior at the b&j a few years ago


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