# Stowe Pass??



## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

Looks like I'm moving to VT (whoo hoo!) and am pricing out passes for Northern VT mountains.

Stowe doesn't list a price for an adult pass on their website. Anyone out there have a pass last year who can give me an estimate on this?

Thanks! =)


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2012)

Welcome to vt.  Stowe won't list until after Labor Day which is, coincidentally, after all other mountain deals are over.  Last seasonit was over $1,800 for a single adult pass full season.  Save your pennies....


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Welcome to vt.  Stowe won't list until after Labor Day which is, coincidentally, after all other mountain deals are over.  Last seasonit was over $1,800 for a single adult pass full season.  Save your pennies....



Thanks! Pretty steep cost but that's about what I was expecting. 

Worth the $$? Overly crowded on the weekends? I have only been once and it was during a storm, most lifts were closed and I skiied powder all day.

Thinking my $$ might be better spent at Smugg's or Jay.


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## snowmonster (Jul 30, 2012)

Stowe is a great place to ski. No question. However, cost is a personal question. I try to ski Stowe when the budget allows. Last year, they had a promo that let you ski cheaper on Sundays if you had the RFID card. I've looked into the option of getting a season pass. But, much as I love skiing Stowe, I personally didn't think it was worth the cost of a season pass. It was just too steep.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2012)

Consider Sugarbush.  Good, solid mountain and good service.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Consider Sugarbush.  Good, solid mountain and good service.



I will thanks. I caught a day at SB for the big storm towards the end of Feb this past season. Pow every run. Loved the terrain and the vibe.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Stowe is a great place to ski. No question. However, cost is a personal question. I try to ski Stowe when the budget allows. Last year, they had a promo that let you ski cheaper on Sundays if you had the RFID card. I've looked into the option of getting a season pass. But, much as I love skiing Stowe, I personally didn't think it was worth the cost of a season pass. It was just too steep.



Agreed. Way too much. You can get a pass good for several Colorado resorts for less than 1/2 that price.


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## WWF-VT (Jul 30, 2012)

Where will you be living in VT ?  Planning to ski a lot on weekends or weekdays ?


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Where will you be living in VT ?  Planning to ski a lot on weekends or weekdays ?



Burlington area. I ski always on the weekends and some during the week depending on how busy I am with work.

If there is a week day storm chances are I'm playing hooky.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Consider Sugarbush.  Good, solid mountain and good service.




How old are you?  last year they had a deal for people in their 20s for a season pass.  It sounded like it went well, and they would likely do it again.   It was an effort to get a younger crowd "sold" on the  mountain.   

While I like Stowe the town and ski area, if I was living in Burlington I'd probably choose between Jay and Sugarbush.  This year you can buy a pass for Jay & Burke, which from what I hear is a great place to ski.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Consider Sugarbush.  Good, solid mountain and good service.



+1


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## ScottySkis (Jul 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Consider Sugarbush.  Good, solid mountain and good service.



+1


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> How old are you?  last year they had a deal for people in their 20s for a season pass.  It sounded like it went well, and they would likely do it again.   It was an effort to get a younger crowd "sold" on the  mountain.
> 
> While I like Stowe the town and ski area, if I was living in Burlington I'd probably choose between Jay and Sugarbush.  This year you can buy a pass for Jay & Burke, which from what I hear is a great place to ski.



I'm 33. SB or Jay both sound great....pretty big difference in average snowfall though. 

Both seem to be about 1 hour 15 minutes to 1.5 hours from Burlington.


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## Nick (Jul 30, 2012)

Wow, $1800? That's a lot of coin.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 30, 2012)

Nick said:


> Wow, $1800? That's a lot of coin.



It is. Just looked at Sugarbush as well....Almost $1,600 at the regular rate!


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## steamboat1 (Jul 30, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> It is. Just looked at Sugarbush as well....Almost $1,600 at the regular rate!



Sugarbush all mountain pass is $1279 before 9/12.

Jay/Burke is $799. Jay only $749 before 10/15.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 30, 2012)

Wow!Sure makes my $575 Cannon pass seem like a steal.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2012)

If you can get a job with a local Stowe Area Association business, you can score cheap midweek season passes.  The last year I lived in town (2001) it was $250 for a M-F Holiday Blackout pass if you worked for a local biz.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh and Smuggs should be worth a look as well.


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## snowmonster (Jul 30, 2012)

That's the early-bird rate. IIRC, the 7-day pass breaks the 2K barrier at full price.


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## xwhaler (Jul 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh and Smuggs should be worth a look as well.



+1 $569 unlimited season pass to Smuggs. Plenty of great terrain and they get lots of snow each season. If you don't mind slow lifts I think Smuggs is a great choice. 
Plus, the savings vs a Stowe or Bush pass would allow you to spend a few days over there each yr.

Another hybrid type option could be a Mt Ellen pass ($559) + Smuggs Pass for $1138 and get 2 great mtns for less than a Stowe only pass.
 You could also consider pairing a ME or Jay pass with a Bash Badge at Smuggs.

lot of options for you....


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## riverc0il (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm going to buck the trend here and recommend the Stowe pass if you can afford it. I've actually considered it. I might have gone with it if I wasn't so far away. They open their lifts at 7:30am I think? So getting there for first tracks would just require an asinine alarm for me. From Burlington, you could set a 6am alarm and make first chair no problem.

Jay has a slightly higher seasonal average. But in reality, both mountains get pretty similar amounts and Stowe has less wind issues and better cruising terrain when the natural isn't good. Stowe has the best lift accessible BC in the east and great top to bottom vertical. Sure, it costs a ton, but you are paying for and getting the best the east has to offer.

Smuggs is certainly worth a look though you'll have to deal with longish lines most weekend due to the resort nature of the place and the doubles. Certainly the best bargain and value price and a short drive from Burlington. 

Jay is certainly worth it as well. A little longer drive but highest natural snowfall in the east and tree season opens at Jay earlier than any other mountain. Additionally, Jay goes long. That is a negative against Stowe, they'll close with top to bottom skiable terrain.

Bush also goes long, which is nice. Bush isn't as expensive as Stowe but they are second highest in the east, I believe. They have the Mount Ellen pass available on the cheap. 

A Mad Card to MRG might be a side option. Don't forget Smuggs offers the Bash Badge which lets you go there on the cheap. These are two cheap ways to ski these mountains as a side diversion if you get a pass somewhere else.

If I were you though, I'd go with the Stowe pass. At least if you are interested in powder, trees, a slackcountry. If you are down for groomers and bumps, Bush would be the best of NoVT short of driving to Burke. Jay gets you a long season with the most pow but the place can blow when it is hard pack. Or at least, after you ski enough powder there, you can become very snobish about conditions... that is the better way to look at it.


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## riverc0il (Jul 30, 2012)

One more thought:

If you are asking, I wonder have you skied all of NoVT? Maybe you should take a season to play the field and find out where you like the most?


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## riverc0il (Jul 30, 2012)

Last thought: you can also add Burke to Jay for an extra $50ish. At an hour and a half, not terribly close to Burlington. But aside from Bush having two mountains, it is the only multi-mountain pass in the area for adults.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 30, 2012)

Cochrans is the closest to Burlington with a season pass @ $206.70 including the 6% state tax. If your only going to ski there 10 times or less I'd pay the $20 all day rate or $14 1/2 day rate instead. They do offer lighted night skiing on Fri.

Bolton Valley which is the next closest place to Burlington is $569 for a season pass. Bolton also offers night skiing Wed.-Sat. which might work for you on those powder weekday evenings after work. Bolton can be a powder day secret since it is high elevation (by VT. standards), gets it share of natural snow & has some pretty good terrain, conditions permitting of course.

But I'm sure you already know this.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I'm going to buck the trend here and recommend the Stowe pass if you can afford it. I've actually considered it. I might have gone with it if I wasn't so far away. They open their lifts at 7:30am I think? So getting there for first tracks would just require an asinine alarm for me. From Burlington, you could set a 6am alarm and make first chair no problem.
> 
> Jay has a slightly higher seasonal average. But in reality, both mountains get pretty similar amounts and Stowe has less wind issues and better cruising terrain when the natural isn't good. Stowe has the best lift accessible BC in the east and great top to bottom vertical. Sure, it costs a ton, but you are paying for and getting the best the east has to offer.
> 
> ...



Rivercoil thanks for the thoughtful response here. The dilemma continues. Stowe does sounds like the best option for me. I'm after the powder and trees and CCC trails on the western side of Mansfield but I can always skin up from Underhill.

Lift lines are long anywhere on a decent weekend at most resorts. Are the lines at Smuggs really worse?

The MT. Ellen pass is kinda tempting but I think I would feel cheated out of some great terrain on the other side of SB.

Jay has long been my favorite mountain in VT and the price is way better but those wind holds are rough sometimes. The longer drive is a factor I guess but I've been used to driving for hours to chase storms. 

A lot to factor in here!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> One more thought:
> 
> If you are asking, I wonder have you skied all of NoVT? Maybe you should take a season to play the field and find out where you like the most?



This might be a good idea as well. I haven't been to all NoVT...just Jay, SB, Stowe and Killington.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Cochrans is the closest to Burlington with a season pass @ $206.70 including the 6% state tax. If your only going to ski there 10 times or less I'd pay the $20 all day rate or $14 1/2 day rate instead. They do offer lighted night skiing on Fri.
> 
> Bolton Valley which is the next closest place to Burlington is $569 for a season pass. Bolton also offers night skiing Wed.-Sat. which might work for you on those powder weekday evenings after work. Bolton can be a powder day secret since it is high elevation (by VT. standards), gets it share of natural snow & has some pretty good terrain, conditions permitting of course.
> 
> But I'm sure you already know this.



I have looked at BV a bit. It looks decent although not a ton of challenging terrain when I look at the topo. Looks like they get a lot of snow and that is key for me.

Cochrans isn't going to cut it for me. Too small and low elevation but I didn't even know about it until you mentioned so thanks for alerting me. =)


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## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2012)

One thing about the Stowe pass, it's so expensive you could buy a pass elsewhere and still ski X number of days at Stowe with the left over money.  And X could be a significant number depending on the price of the other pass and Stowe discounts.  Of course physcologically it might be hard to go spend the "Stowe money" once you have a pass elsewhere.  I guess a lot depends on how many days you plan to get in.  And of course who knows what the weather will do.  Personally I've stopped buying a Mount Snow pass due to the short early/late seasons and all the other discounts they offer.  I've definitely enjoyed being a "free agent".


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## WWF-VT (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Rivercoil thanks for the thoughtful response here. The dilemma continues. Stowe does sounds like the best option for me. I'm after the powder and trees and CCC trails on the western side of Mansfield but I can always skin up from Underhill.
> 
> Lift lines are long anywhere on a decent weekend at most resorts. Are the lines at Smuggs really worse?
> 
> ...



Weekend lines at Smuggs are 20-30 mins plus a SLOW chair up the hill.   Stowe is a great option but also has congested times for the Forerunner Quad.   Sugarbush gets 10 minute lines for Super Bravo Quad and longer waits (but usually worth it) for the Castlerock chair.  The beauty of Mt Ellen is that there are never lift lines and there's a lot of open terrain to explore.  Woods are really under rated at Mt Ellen and there are a lot of natural snow only trails.   If cost is a factor - an option is the Mt Ellen plus pass that gets you five days at Lincoln Peak and allows you to ski Lincoln Peak after Mt Ellen closes.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Weekend lines at Smuggs are 20-30 mins plus a SLOW chair up the hill.   Stowe is a great option but also has congested times for the Forerunner Quad.   Sugarbush gets 10 minute lines for Super Bravo Quad and longer waits (but usually worth it) for the Castlerock chair.  The beauty of Mt Ellen is that there are never lift lines and there's a lot of open terrain to explore.  Woods are really under rated at Mt Ellen and there are a lot of natural snow only trails.   If cost is a factor - an option is the Mt Ellen plus pass that gets you five days at Lincoln Peak and allows you to ski Lincoln Peak after Mt Ellen closes.



+1.  there are tons of woods at mt ellen.  no lines. its a great deal.


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## xwhaler (Jul 31, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> +1. there are tons of woods at mt ellen. no lines. its a great deal.



I'd strongly consider a ME Pass + Bash Badge Plus at Smuggs which gives you early and late season access and the $25 ticket option during the season.
I think Bash Badge + is usually around $200. Smuggs usually opens fairly early and closes Mid April so you could ski there before ME opens/closes and chase powder for $25 if you wanted a diversion from ME during the season.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

xwhaler said:


> I'd strongly consider a ME Pass + Bash Badge Plus at Smuggs which gives you early and late season access and the $25 ticket option during the season.
> I think Bash Badge + is usually around $200. Smuggs usually opens fairly early and closes Mid April so you could ski there before ME opens/closes and chase powder for $25 if you wanted a diversion from ME during the season.



Do people access Slide brook from ME?


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## snowmonster (Jul 31, 2012)

^ There are access points at both ME and Lincoln Peak.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> ^ There are access points at both ME and Lincoln Peak.



Awesome thank you!


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## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2012)

You can also get to the to the top of Castlerock from ME with minimal effort.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> You can also get to the to the top of Castlerock from ME with minimal effort.



I was looking at this on google earth actually. Looks like the Long trail runs the ridge from ME to CR and is more or less down hill.

This plus Slide brook access is making the ME pass start to look better and better.


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## snowmonster (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I was looking at this on google earth actually. Looks like the Long trail runs the ridge from ME to CR and is more or less down hill.



That's part of the Monroe Skyline. You can do a tour from Mad River Glen to Lincoln Peak on that ridge line. It's on my to-do list.



> This plus Slide brook access is making the ME pass start to look better and better.



IMHO you can't go wrong with that. Trailboss used to have this pass. You may want to ask him for his pros and cons take.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 31, 2012)

I thought slidebrook was "off limits" except for the tours SB runs?  Feel free to answer in PM as opposed to the open forum.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Do people access Slide brook from ME?



Yes, but not as obvious as from LP and therefore not as trafficked.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> You can also get to the to the top of Castlerock from ME with minimal effort.



Huh?


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I thought slidebrook was "off limits" except for the tours SB runs?  Feel free to answer in PM as opposed to the open forum.



not true.  not patrolled but certainly not off limits in the winter (my wife thinks its my weekend home).  I believe in the spring/summer it is off limits due to bear mating season or something like that.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I was looking at this on google earth actually. Looks like the Long trail runs the ridge from ME to CR and is more or less down hill.
> 
> This plus Slide brook access is making the ME pass start to look better and better.



while your looking at google earth, check out the area north of the Exterminator trail which is great woods skiing.  there is some crazy stuff in there off the ridge line and extending well beyond the on map portions.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> while your looking at google earth, check out the area north of the Exterminator trail which is great woods skiing.  there is some crazy stuff in there off the ridge line and extending well beyond the on map portions.



I was totally eyeballing that zone this morning! Looks like a lot of potential and easy connecting back into the resort via Northway or Brambles. 

Decent cliffs or drops back there?

Thanks for pointing this out and confirming my hopes about that area. =)


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> Huh?



Is this "huh" because you disagree it takes minimal effort?

The ridge between ME and CR looks to be about a little more than a mile. Not bad really but maybe there is something I don't know about up there?


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## AdironRider (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Is this "huh" because you disagree it takes minimal effort?
> 
> The ridge between ME and CR looks to be about a little more than a mile. Not bad really but maybe there is something I don't know about up there?



Man thats nothing. Sounds like its maybe a bit more bushwacking than "hey lets head right over there" kinda thing, but who says thats a bad thing?  

I do probably twice that with every Four Pines lap.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Man thats nothing. Sounds like its maybe a bit more bushwacking than "hey lets head right over there" kinda thing, but who says thats a bad thing?
> 
> I do probably twice that with every Four Pines lap.



Agreed. I'm all for a bit of a bushwhack for good lines and pow. The Long trail runs the ridge...can't be too bad.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I do probably twice that with every Four Pines lap.



Do you mean Four Pines @ J-Hole? Bushwhacking out there is easier in my opinion.


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## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> Huh?



Not sure if the "Huh" is disagreement or you just never bothered going all the way across.  But, before the Slide Brook chair went in the shuttle busses heading south used to be a bit crowded at the end of the day.  So rather than risk having to wait a bus or two we would shoot across the ridge.  The Long Trail was almost always already packed down, and the couple climbs in my opinion were quick and easy.  To me it was not only minimal effort, it was also a time saver and bonus Castlerock.


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## AdironRider (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Do you mean Four Pines @ J-Hole? Bushwhacking out there is easier in my opinion.



I do. And I wasnt really referencing bushwhacking to get there, but rather it not a line of sight thing like with Four Pines where you can see how to get there, as well as the entire run, from the Sublette chair.


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## riverc0il (Jul 31, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I thought slidebrook was "off limits" except for the tours SB runs?  Feel free to answer in PM as opposed to the open forum.


I'm sure SB is tight lipped about it because they don't want people going in and getting over their head. But the access is open. Just don't expect a map or a rescue.

I would only go with M.Ellen with the Bash Badge at Smuggs as well. Ellen has good trees and is a good mountain. It just isn't as expansive as some other options. I like a bit more variety and to move about a bit more. Just my preference.

Huck It, you are looking at the wrong side of the ridge if you think Stowe pass would be great for Teardrop/Underhill. That entire ridge dropping back into the resort is unique and unrivaled in the east for hiking from a resort.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I was totally eyeballing that zone this morning! Looks like a lot of potential and easy connecting back into the resort via Northway or Brambles.
> 
> Decent cliffs or drops back there?
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out and confirming my hopes about that area. =)



Yup.  Pm me and ill send you some video.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Is this "huh" because you disagree it takes minimal effort?
> 
> The ridge between ME and CR looks to be about a little more than a mile. Not bad really but maybe there is something I don't know about up there?



Exactly.  Its doable but i wouldnt describe it as "minimal" effort.  Maybe its just me.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Man thats nothing. Sounds like its maybe a bit more bushwacking than "hey lets head right over there" kinda thing, but who says thats a bad thing?
> 
> I do probably twice that with every Four Pines lap.



No bushwacking, but its not close.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 31, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Not sure if the "Huh" is disagreement or you just never bothered going all the way across.  But, before the Slide Brook chair went in the shuttle busses heading south used to be a bit crowded at the end of the day.  So rather than risk having to wait a bus or two we would shoot across the ridge.  The Long Trail was almost always already packed down, and the couple climbs in my opinion were quick and easy.  To me it was not only minimal effort, it was also a time saver and bonus Castlerock.



Correct.  Doesnt really make sense for me in the winter since i have an lp pass, but ive hiked it in the summer.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Huck It, you are looking at the wrong side of the ridge if you think Stowe pass would be great for Teardrop/Underhill. That entire ridge dropping back into the resort is unique and unrivaled in the east for hiking from a resort.



I know that teardrop and other stuff on the west side of Mansfield isn't going to bring me back to the lifts. I'm ok with that. That's what skins and a girlfriend with a car to pick me up is for =)

I can see the hikable stuff that leads back into the resort from looking at topos, photos, videos, etc. Looks awesome! Hoping I can link up with some of you guys this season. I will sadly be leaving my ski buddies behind in western NY and need to find a new crew!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Jul 31, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> Exactly.  Its doable but i wouldnt describe it as "minimal" effort.  Maybe its just me.



Yeah. I'm good with hiking and suffering a little. It's adventure to me!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2012)

I had the ME Plus for two seasons and it is a great value.  You get the benefits of a long season because you get early and late season access while ME regular is early only and then only ME.  ME Plus gets you 5 days at LP as well during prime season.  Best deal.  

As for other comments:  Smuggs is good, but long lift lines and slow lift.  Jay can be a haul from BTV.  No buts about that.  1:30-2 hours in my experience.  And Cochran's?  Seriously?

BV: can be good, but short season and flat.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2012)

Feel free to pm me for more info.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 2, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Cochran's?  Seriously?


You got a problem with Cochrans big boy?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> You got a problem with Cochrans big boy?



Not at all.  It just seemed like an odd suggestion that would not suit his needs.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Aug 6, 2012)

Does Stowe still do single ride tickets?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2012)

Do what I did when I lived in Burlington.

Work 1 day a week at Stowe for the free season pass, and pay the minimal amount for a Smuggs season pass.

Do that?  VOILA!!!   You ski back and forth over the top of the mountain at will and have access to both mountains.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Aug 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do what I did when I lived in Burlington.
> 
> Work 1 day a week at Stowe for the free season pass, and pay the minimal amount for a Smuggs season pass.
> 
> Do that?  VOILA!!!   You ski back and forth over the top of the mountain at will and have access to both mountains.



Such a good idea! I work full time though and don't have time for 1 day at Stowe because I'll be skiing! =)


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Such a good idea! I work full time though and don't have time for 1 day at Stowe because I'll be skiing! =)



I worked 3pm to 11pm Monday through Friday in Burlington, and worked Saturday at Stowe.  Would ski about 9am to 1pm and have plenty of time to hit the showers and make it to work.  Life was simpler!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Does Stowe still do single ride tickets?



AFAIK they do on the Gondola.  If the reason you ask is to catch a ride up on the East side and then ski Tear Drop etc. down to Underhill for your girlfriend to pick you up, I doubt you'd take advantage of it more than once.  I've never done Tear Drop or other shots off the west side, but had friends in college who would skin the west side and do those trails.  IIRC it was about 2-2.5 hour skin up from Underhill.  It's about an hour and fifteen minute ride from Underhill to the Stowe Gondola during winter.  From the top of the Gondola it's about a 40 minute hike to the Chin to access those same backside trails.  Even if the one up pass was really cheap (I doubt it is, I recall it being $9 12 years ago) just in ascent time savings (never mind fuel and ticket expense), you'd spend 2.5 hours in a car plus a 40 minute hike from the top of the gondola and only save about 2 hours hike/skin time if you were just head up from the Underhill on skins.


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## snowmonster (Aug 7, 2012)

^ You may want to check again about the single-ride tickets. While they used to do this, I believe they no longer do. And, if they still do, I'd love to get my hands on them!


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## steamboat1 (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm going to date myself but at one time Stowe sold booklets with about a 1/2 dozen single ride coupons in it. We used them mostly for taking a single ride on the Big Spruce chair & then skiing over to Madonna for the day. 

MRG used to have the same kind of single ride coupon books also.

I'm going back maybe 40 years or more.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2012)

Only ten years ago Stowe and Smuggs had a reciprocal relationship where if you skied over the ridge on Spruce they'd give you one complementary ride back up.  I'd start my ski day pretty much everyday parking at the big pig and do the birthday bowls off the backside and catch a ride up from Smuggs.  If you had a day pass, they'd just punch a hole in it to signify you had used the lift.  If you had a season pass, you were supposed to go to the ticket counter where they would print you a complimentary one up ticket.  We typically would play dumb and just go straight to the lift with our pass and try and milk it for a couple of laps.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 7, 2012)

I guess you'd have to add the $5 charge for an RFID card to any single ride ticket even if they still offered the single ride. They call this progress.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Aug 8, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> AFAIK they do on the Gondola.  If the reason you ask is to catch a ride up on the East side and then ski Tear Drop etc. down to Underhill for your girlfriend to pick you up, I doubt you'd take advantage of it more than once.  I've never done Tear Drop or other shots off the west side, but had friends in college who would skin the west side and do those trails.  IIRC it was about 2-2.5 hour skin up from Underhill.  It's about an hour and fifteen minute ride from Underhill to the Stowe Gondola during winter.  From the top of the Gondola it's about a 40 minute hike to the Chin to access those same backside trails.  Even if the one up pass was really cheap (I doubt it is, I recall it being $9 12 years ago) just in ascent time savings (never mind fuel and ticket expense), you'd spend 2.5 hours in a car plus a 40 minute hike from the top of the gondola and only save about 2 hours hike/skin time if you were just head up from the Underhill on skins.



Thanks for the info. The logistics of making a run on the teardrop via a single ride on the chair/gondola are less of an issue for me than you might think but you have valid points. I guess it all depends on how much fun those trails on the west side of Mansfield are.

I have a feeling they don't do the single ride lift tickets any more. Jay stopped doing it too but for reasons of their own. Now I hike from rt. 242 up the long trail.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Aug 8, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Only ten years ago Stowe and Smuggs had a reciprocal relationship where if you skied over the ridge on Spruce they'd give you one complementary ride back up.  I'd start my ski day pretty much everyday parking at the big pig and do the birthday bowls off the backside and catch a ride up from Smuggs.  If you had a day pass, they'd just punch a hole in it to signify you had used the lift.  If you had a season pass, you were supposed to go to the ticket counter where they would print you a complimentary one up ticket.  We typically would play dumb and just go straight to the lift with our pass and try and milk it for a couple of laps.



This sounds awesome! What happens if you head over to Smuggs now? They no longer allow this?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> This sounds awesome! *What happens if you head over to Smuggs now?* They no longer allow this?



My suspicion is they will allow you up the lift and 'X' your ticket to signify you've pulled this trick once.  

Even back when the mountains did have this relationship, it wasn't promoted (at least not by Stowe).  I was based at Spruce (where you'd do this from Stowe's end) and almost nobody even knew it existed.  Usually it was ski clubs or folks on pre-arranged package deals that would get the Spruce ticket for the carriage to Smuggs.    

 In any event, I would speculate that it was Stowe and not Smuggs that killed this off, because it was obvious that we weren't encouraged to push or promote it.  And that makes business sense.  FAR more people would numerically come to ski at Stowe and do _one _day at Smuggs than the other way around = lost revenue for Stowe.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 9, 2012)

Back in the day when it was affordable we would use the single ride coupon at Stowe then ski over to Smuggs & buy a lift ticket there to ski for the day. At the end of the day just take the Sterling lift up at Smuggs & ski back into Stowe. It saved a lot of driving time when coming from the south.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2012)

My opinion is probably not a popular one, but I'd love to see a day when Stowe and Smuggs are interconnected.


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## snowmonster (Aug 9, 2012)

^ Count me in.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> My opinion is probably not a popular one, but* I'd love to see a day when Stowe and Smuggs are interconnected.*



Define "interconnected", do you mean like 10 years ago when you were allowed (sortof) to ski over Sterling Pond?  Of do you mean you want Stowe to buy out Smuggs and make a mega-resort?  I'd be all for the former, but loathe the latter.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2012)

Full on lift interconnect.  I'm fine with a two way T-Bar cutting across the ridge trail from Spruce to Sterling.  Give me both mountains on one lift ticket.  Biggest, Baddest ski area in the east BY FAR.  And throw in High Speed Quads up Sterling and Madonna.  :lol:

Like I mentioned earlier, it wouldn't be a popular desire with many.  :lol:


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## AdironRider (Aug 10, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Full on lift interconnect.  I'm fine with a two way T-Bar cutting across the ridge trail from Spruce to Sterling.  Give me both mountains on one lift ticket.  Biggest, Baddest ski area in the east BY FAR.  And throw in High Speed Quads up Sterling and Madonna.  :lol:
> 
> Like I mentioned earlier, it wouldn't be a popular desire with many.  :lol:



I would move back home today if this was the case. That would be a hell of a pass.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 10, 2012)

In all seriousness the Smuggs ownership has been at it for a long time and they may need to do some lift upgrades soon. I know that a few years ago they were contemplating a six-pack up Sterling and I think someone produced the Act 250 permit for the job. But nothing has happened. Those doubles are nice, but they will wear out since some of them are pushing 50 years old.

So the ownership may consider selling rather than keep going. But I don't think that Stowe's owners want to take it on.

Interesting fantasy.  Maybe our buddy Les Otten may take it over :lol:


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## riverc0il (Aug 10, 2012)

I think the 250 on Sterling was approved, IIRC. I thought I saw that on the net sometime this past year but I may be mistaken. I haven't heard any plans to follow through even if the plan was approved.

I can see a six pack working on Sterling, there is enough terrain to spread folks around and it is more protected than Madonna. I can't see a high speed lift going to Madonna summit. Not a chance on that happening practically. And definitely not enough terrain for that type of capacity as the expert trails are closed due to conditions frequently. 

What I can see happening is a HSQ replacing Madonna II and the summit lift being cut in half with a new double similar to Castlerock going from the mid-station area to the summit. So the HSQ would service blue terrain almost exclusively and the double would service black terrain and it could be lapped without having to ski back down to the base. Top to bottom die hards might cry, but I think that would be a better setup (though there are some nice low angle trees below the mid-station  ).


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## thetrailboss (Aug 10, 2012)

Yeah I could not see a HSQ going to the top of Madonna...without some major terrain expansion/reconfiguration.  And I think it would ruin the mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I think the 250 on Sterling was approved, IIRC. I thought I saw that on the net sometime this past year but I may be mistaken. I haven't heard any plans to follow through even if the plan was approved.
> 
> I can see a six pack working on Sterling, there is enough terrain to spread folks around and it is more protected than Madonna. I can't see a high speed lift going to Madonna summit. Not a chance on that happening practically. And definitely not enough terrain for that type of capacity as the expert trails are closed due to conditions frequently.
> 
> What I can see happening is a HSQ replacing Madonna II and the summit lift being cut in half with a new double similar to Castlerock going from the mid-station area to the summit. So the HSQ would service blue terrain almost exclusively and the double would service black terrain and it could be lapped without having to ski back down to the base. Top to bottom die hards might cry, but I think that would be a better setup (though there are some nice low angle trees below the mid-station  ).



These are good ideas.  I'm not even sure a HSQ would be needed on Madonna 2.  A fixed grip would be fine, maybe with a conveyor like Spillway at Sugarloaf.  I definitely agree with shortening Madonna 1 to start about a third the way up the hill.  It's a pretty ruthless run out to wait in a big ass line for a long slow lift.  If you could cut the ride time down by a third and the traffic by a third with the intermediates skiing off of Madonna 2, it would vastly improve the ski experience for the summit.  Both less traffic waiting for the lift and less people hammering the snow.


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## fbrissette (Aug 11, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> My opinion is probably not a popular one, but I'd love to see a day when Stowe and Smuggs are interconnected.



Why wouldn't that be popular ?   Not a Stowe skier, but I fail to see the negative.

Francois


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2012)

fbrissette said:


> Why wouldn't that be popular ?   Not a Stowe skier, but I fail to see the negative.
> 
> Francois



The two areas attract very different demographics of skiers.  There is also the whole tree hugger demographic who would be against developing the corridor between Smuggs and Stowe even if it was simply a relatively benign interconnect such as a T-bar as I suggested.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 11, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The two areas attract very different demographics of skiers.  There is also the whole tree hugger demographic who would be against developing the corridor between Smuggs and Stowe even if it was simply a relatively benign interconnect such as a T-bar as I suggested.



Yeah, unfortunately even though there is somewhat of an interconnect, the idea of any ski terrain expansion in Vermont is pretty slim.  Not to get political, but it has gotten to the point where the environmentalists/NIMBY's are protesting wind development and even a solar farm.  Unreal.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 11, 2012)

It's easy enough still to traverse from one to the other. Problem is getting a cheap ride up the Big Spruce chair or whatever they call it now days over to Smuggs. Just a little uphill hike from the top of the new chair. I do think they keep a sign on the Stowe side saying it's closed, not sure about the Smuggs side. 

As an aside am I the only one who thinks they they ruined Big Spruce with the new chair not going to the summit eliminating easy access to the best terrain off Spruce Peak? I know it gets windy up the old lift line but geeze. Not to mention the view from the top.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2012)

yes, I would've preferred the old lift terminus.  across the street though, the new Forerunner being a 50 feet longer is much better.  Easy to get to Nosedive now.  It wasn't that big of a deal cutting around the Stone Hut, but most visitors weren't aware of that option and had to hike the little hill.

I'm torn on how I feel about the overall regrade and addition of snowmaking on Main Street.  Though it rarely lasted long due to it's exposure, Main Street was often a great all natural trail before the "upgrade."  That said, they buff that sucker out pretty sweet and it's a heckuva groomer now.  I say this as someone who generally doesn't care much for groomed terrain.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 7, 2012)

http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/2012-13-season-pass-rates/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2012)

$1,653.  Wow.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2012)

How do locals throw down that kind of cash?


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## fbrissette (Sep 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> $1,653.  Wow.



2056$ after Oct 30.   Double Wow.

More expensive than Aspen or Whistler.  Is this the most expensive ski pass in North America ???


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> How do locals throw down that kind of cash?



They don't.  They hike it or ski at MRG, Sugarbush, or Jay.  :lol:


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## ScottySkis (Sep 7, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> How do locals throw down that kind of cash?





Is their midweek priceing any cheaper, guess they go to Smugglers too.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 8, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Is their midweek priceing any cheaper, guess they go to Smugglers too.


$974 excluding holiday weeks Scotty.

It's listed.

If I lived nearby I'd jump on it.

Stowe is worth it.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 8, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> How do locals throw down that kind of cash?



If you work for a business that belongs to the local chamber of commerce, passes are available at a discounted rate.  My last winter in town (2000-2001) it was $250 for a midweek pass with only Xmas and Presidents weeks blacked out.

I'm sure it's more now.  I'll try and remember to ask my old friends what the current price is.


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## mlkrgr (Sep 8, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> If you work for a business that belongs to the local chamber of commerce, passes are available at a discounted rate.  My last winter in town (2000-2001) it was $250 for a midweek pass with only Xmas and Presidents weeks blacked out.
> 
> I'm sure it's more now.  I'll try and remember to ask my old friends what the current price is.



There's a reason why I'd only ski Stowe if I was going on a ski bus. At $77-$82 including lift ticket and transit costs, that's a hell of a deal when the window price is $88-$92 most days and you still have to pay for gas to get to and from there.


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## AdironRider (Sep 8, 2012)

You want the best, you pay for it. 

Id say its worth it compared to other mountains in the same competitive set. Bush isnt exactly cheap either, and way less value given there only improvements are real estate based pretty much over the last decade.


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## snoseek (Sep 8, 2012)

So I can ski kirkwood, flatstar, heavenly, squaw and alpine meadows for half the price of Stowe? 

Yeah I get it, cost more to operate, market price ect....

To me it sounds like a hype machine. I would rather ski Sugarloaf anyway if I was buying a pass here.

I do think Stowe is good times for sure, make no mistake about that.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2012)

What do Aspen, Telluride or Deer Valet get for their season pass price?  Those would be the appropriate comparisons for Western areas IMO.


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## jaytrem (Sep 9, 2012)

The thing about Stowe is they never got involved in the "pass wars".  I remember about 20 years ago a Mt Snow/Killington pass was around $1100.  Assuming Stowe was about the same back then, that comes to about $27.50 increase each year.  Seems resonable when you think of it like that, but then when you look at the competitions prices...


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## ScottySkis (Sep 9, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> What do Aspen, Telluride or Deer Valet get for their season pass price?  Those would be the appropriate comparisons for Western areas IMO.





But is it much more money to run East coast mountain because of snowmaking so I would think all season passes would be higher here then are west of our part of the US ? Do not need as much snowmaking ,is that part of prices of season passes or do they get that money back in daily lift tickets?


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## riverc0il (Sep 9, 2012)

Scotty said:


> But is much more money to run East coast mountain because of snowmaking so I would think all season passes would be higher here then were they do not need as much snowmaking ,is that part of prices of season passes or do they get that money back in daily lift tickets?


Snowmaking alone does not account for discrepancies or else all eastern areas of similar size would be similar prices. DHS was appropriately suggesting that the east/west big names are comparable because you pay for the name as much or more than the product. There are many eastern areas that blow far more snow than Stowe but cost significantly less. 

Back to the OP, I withdraw my recommendation for a Stowe pass. It may be the best mountain in the east with the most to offer but no mountain is worth $1600+ early season rate, let alone $2000+ regular rate. I thought the early season was just $1200 or so in past years? Mid-week for $1000 isn't so bad as long as you have a work schedule with at least two mid-week days off. 

It boggles my mind that they charge so much for regular season pass but only $400 early season for students. Total no brainer on that one. Is Stowe really converting college kids into long time Stowe pass holders, though? Why price adults out of the market but have the student rate only a hundred or so more than other college deals?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> What do Aspen, Telluride or Deer Valet get for their season pass price?  Those would be the appropriate comparisons for Western areas IMO.



Deer Valley, first price is before Halloween.  Second is after:  


First Adult (24–64 years)          $1,810
                $2,100

They do some locals deals, but they are not that crazy.  Mainly coupon books with midweek tickets running about $57 per day if you buy the max number.  

As to comparison, Stowe blows DV away in terms of terrain.  Yes DV is very well groomed, has good snowmaking, great service, and nice lifts, but the expert terrain is quite limited.  Snowmonster and I found some bumps and glades here and there, but nothing like Stowe.


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## Geoff (Sep 9, 2012)

Labor costs and infrastructure cost per skier visit are much higher at Deer Valley than at a Killington or a Sunday River.   That more than offsets eastern snowmaking costs.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Snowmaking alone does not account for discrepancies or else all eastern areas of similar size would be similar prices. DHS was appropriately suggesting that the east/west big names are comparable because you pay for the name as much or more than the product. There are many eastern areas that blow far more snow than Stowe but cost significantly less.



I agree.  Snowmaking only counts for some of it.  Stowe has a new automated system but not everything is covered IIRC.  What you are paying for is the privilege of skiing there.  Their clientele, from NYC, have lots of options and they see Stowe as the very best and they are willing to pay NYC prices for it.  But they demand a lot, hence the new hotel, etc.  That is what you are paying for.  I had heard once from a local that management are under constant pressure to make a profit/break even because this branch of (the now former) AIG was expected to cover its own expenses and not draw off the main business.  Pretty much eat what you kill....sound familiar?  So that partially explains why things are not so discounted.  



> It boggles my mind that they charge so much for regular season pass but only $400 early season for students. Total no brainer on that one. Is Stowe really converting college kids into long time Stowe pass holders, though? Why price adults out of the market but have the student rate only a hundred or so more than other college deals?



Because, again, they say they are the best and the UVM kid will get Mommy or Daddy to buy it for them anyway.  So ask for more.  

This is cheaper than what it used to be....like $600 or more.  Then it was a joke.  

FWIW student passes out here in Utah at Snowbird and Alta are quite expensive as well.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Labor costs and infrastructure cost per skier visit are much higher at Deer Valley than at a Killington or a Sunday River.   That more than offsets eastern snowmaking costs.



For those that have not been, the amount of infrastructure for their real estate at DV is simply mind blowing.  There are miles and miles of roads alone.  The real estate is spread out a long ways.  DV is a very large resort.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2012)

I think the low priced Student pass is targeted at getting midweek business.  I know when I was a student at UVM purchasing that pass, I rarely skied on the weekends.  I'd schedule my spring semester classes either Tu - TH or M,W,Fr and ski there on my days off from class or just skip classes all together on Powder days.  I was typically too hung over on the weekends to bother heading out there when I'd wake up at noon from the prior evenings debauchery.   

Regarding the comment "no mountain is worth $1600+ early season rate," for a certain percentage of the population that dollar figure doesn't really matter much.  A golf membership to their in town course is $1750 a season.  Then you have to pay cart fees each time you go on top of that.  They don't even publish the rate to the Mountain Club, which leads me to believe a membership probably costs tens of thousands in initiation fees plus several thousand in annual dues.  

Whether looking at the $92 daily rate or $2000 pass price, it's apparently what the market will bare.  The place is packed on weekends and holidays.  I'm just happy I have friends who are business managers or owners in town that can get me on the hill for $50.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2012)

Stowe is usually one of the more generous mountains when it comes to offering deals to ski club members. They usually run ski club appreciation days during 3 separate weekday periods during the winter. If I remember correctly lift tickets for ski club members are about $40 for a single day ticket & about $30 for multiple day tickets during these offers. Between ski club appreciation days & using Vt. Passes I get to ski Stowe several times a season at a very reasonable cost. They also offer bulk ticket rates to ski clubs but I don't remember what the rate is. I'd venture to guess somewhere around $60 for a day pass.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2012)

Another deal they offered as recently as 05 was industry appreciation days.  1st Thursday of the month any employee working for a VT hospitality industry business could bring their pay stub and ski for free.


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## jaytrem (Sep 9, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> For those that have not been, the amount of infrastructure for their real estate at DV is simply mind blowing.  There are miles and miles of roads alone.  The real estate is spread out a long ways.  DV is a very large resort.


 
 You're not kidding, and the Canyons too.  All those bridges and tunnels, I can't imagine how much it cost to build those things.  Not to mention is ruins the ambiance somewhat for me.  I think Deer Valley did a better job than the Canyons though.

Way off topic here, but if you look on Bing you can see one of the Canyons new ski tunnels off the back of Iron Mountain pointing directly at PCMR.  Hmmm.....


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 10, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Back to the OP, I withdraw my recommendation for a Stowe pass. It may be the best mountain in the east with the most to offer but no mountain is worth $1600+ early season rate, let alone $2000+ regular rate. I thought the early season was just $1200 or so in past years? Mid-week for $1000 isn't so bad as long as you have a work schedule with at least two mid-week days off.



I'm still undecided on what to get. $1600 is a pricey but I really want access to Stowe. SB is $1,280 and I would go for that for sure if SB got as much snow as Stowe.

SB reports average of 269 inches per year
Stowe reports 333 inches

Does that really equate to more powder days at Stowe?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I'm still undecided on what to get. $1600 is a pricey but I really want access to Stowe. SB is $1,280 and I would go for that for sure if SB got as much snow as Stowe.
> 
> SB reports average of 269 inches per year
> Stowe reports 333 inches
> ...



I have a lot of experience at SB and 5-7 days at Stowe total. I know that Stowe, with its higher elevation and location, gets a bit more snow than SB. That said SB North is colder than SB South and gets good snow as well. Both, I think, have similar numbers of powder days, but the snow may be a bit deeper at Stowe than SB. So, for example, if SB gets 10 inches at North, Stowe may get 14, and Jay may get 20.

And I have heard that Stowe is generous to ski clubs with the discounts.  In the last few season there have been an occasional deal or two midweek.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 10, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I'm still undecided on what to get. $1600 is a pricey but* I really want access to Stowe.* SB is $1,280 and I would go for that for sure if SB got as much snow as Stowe.


I think you answered your own question.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I think you answered your own question.




The truth is that if you are going to ski at least 20 days then the pass will pay for itself regardless of price.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 10, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I have a lot of experience at SB and 5-7 days at Stowe total. I know that Stowe, with its higher elevation and location, gets a bit more snow than SB. That said SB North is colder than SB South and gets good snow as well. Both, I think, have similar numbers of powder days, but the snow may be a bit deeper at Stowe than SB. So, for example, if SB gets 10 inches at North, Stowe may get 14, and Jay may get 20.
> 
> And I have heard that Stowe is generous to ski clubs with the discounts.  In the last few season there have been an occasional deal or two midweek.



That is my observation as well.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 10, 2012)

also, I think Jspin has been compiling data which would definitively answer your question


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## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> also, I think Jspin has been compiling data which would definitively answer your question




JSpin probably does.  Bolton and Stowe aren't too far off when it comes to snow accumulations.  It always surprises me how folks don't know about Bolton's good snow.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 10, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> JSpin probably does.  Bolton and Stowe aren't too far off when it comes to snow accumulations.  It always surprises me how folks don't know about Bolton's good snow.



And how over reported Jay's snow accumulation is.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> And how over reported Jay's snow accumulation is.



Some say that...sometimes I think that they may but in my experience they do get a lot of snow.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 10, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> also, I think Jspin has been compiling data which would definitively answer your question



Thanks! I was just looking through some of Jspins posts and reports. 

Is there a place he has posted this data besides TR's?


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 10, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> The truth is that if you are going to ski at least 20 days then the pass will pay for itself regardless of price.



This is what I keep telling myself!


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## HowieT2 (Sep 10, 2012)

I dont know, but for each snow event he has the reported amounts for VT, north to south.


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## riverc0il (Sep 10, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> And how over reported Jay's snow accumulation is.


As a pass holder there for three years, I don't think the over report much. I have seen both under and over reporting but it is usually pretty close.


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## J.Spin (Sep 10, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Thanks! I was just looking through some of Jspins posts and reports.
> 
> Is there a place he has posted this data besides TR's?


 
Huck, the best place to find reported snowfall for the Vermont ski areas on a storm-by-storm basis is to go to our Winter Weather Page:

http://jandeproductions.com/winter-weather/

On that page, scroll down just a bit, and you’ll see a list of the past six seasons on the left – click on the season of interest and it will bring you to that season’s weather summary page.  Once on the summary page, scroll down past the first five snowfall plots and you will come to a big table – that table contains a link to each accumulating snowstorm that hit our location in the valley during the season.  We generally get about 40-50 storms a season (there may be a few more that hit the mountains on the fringes of the season when we don’t accumulate snow in the valley).  I generally try to make a list of the north to south ski area snowfall along the Green Mountain spine in my weather observations, and I don’t do it for every storm, but the bigger the storm, the more likely I’ll have the snow totals listed.  Click on the word “text” for whatever storm you want, and if you scan through that text you’ll find the snow totals if I recorded them.

In terms of overall season averages, there is a clear north to south trend when it comes to snowfall along the Green Mountain spine (see the list below), and all things being equal (elevation, aspect, etc.) you’re going to get more snow the farther north you go; the snowfall more than doubles as you head from south to north in the state.  This trend is due to two main factors: 1) Latitude-based rain/snow lines during storms, and 2) orographic or “upslope” snows – the farther north one travels in the Green Mountains, the more the orographics are favored on west/northwest winds because the mountains aren’t blocked by mountains to the west (such as the Adirondacks).  The Northern Greens are also positioned well to pick up moisture that has pooled to the north of the Great Lakes, and they may get a tiny boost of moisture from Lake Champlain when it’s not frozen (the east-west fetch of Lake Champlain is really just far too short to provide any real lake effect in that direction though).

Below I’ve added the north-south snowfall numbers for the Vermont ski areas along the spine – these are all either current numbers from the resort’s websites, the Ski Vermont website, or the most recent number I had if I couldn’t find it at either of those sites.  Using the numbers below, snowfall is almost 25% more at Stowe than it is at Sugarbush.  That’s definitely significant, but the impact on skiing can vary from season to season – in a good season it’s less noticeable, but from what I heard it was a bit more noticeable last season when Stowe’s total was 211” and Sugarbush received only 161”.  I never got down to Sugarbush last season, but others who skied at both areas last season may be able to comment on any differences they observed.

Jay Peak: 376”
Smuggler’s Notch: 322”
Stowe: 333”
Bolton Valley: 312”
Mad River Glen: 250”
Sugarbush: 269”
Middlebury: 250”
Pico: 250”
Killington: 250”
Okemo: 200”
Bromley: 145”
Magic Mountain: 156”
Stratton: 180”
Mount Snow: 156”


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> This is what I keep telling myself!




:lol:  In many ways the best thing to do is get a pass because it motivates you to go more and you won't have those mornings when you go, "is the snow good enough to buy a day ticket?"  You just go....


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:  In many ways the best thing to do is get a pass because it motivates you to go more and you won't have those mornings when you go, "is the snow good enough to buy a day ticket?"  You just go....




So true!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

J.Spin said:


> Huck, the best place to find reported snowfall for the Vermont ski areas on a storm-by-storm basis is to go to our Winter Weather Page:
> 
> http://jandeproductions.com/winter-weather/
> 
> ...



WOW! Thanks for all of this. Your data is invaluable!

The difference in snow from SB to Stowe is clearly significant and makes me lean towards Stowe which then makes me lean towards Jay. The problem with Jay is distance and the problem with Stowe is cost.

I think I'm just driving myself crazy trying to find a perfect balance. I love skiing all northern resorts so I'm sure I'll be a happy guy no matter what!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2012)

The truth is that if you are moving to BTV the drive to Jay is not too bad.  It is longer, but not like driving to Jay from Boston or something.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> The truth is that if you are moving to BTV the drive to Jay is not too bad.  It is longer, but not like driving to Jay from Boston or something.



Google says 1 hr 28 mins to Jay and 1hr 8 mins to Stowe.

Really not much of a difference. Jay pass is so much cheaper too.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Google says 1 hr 28 mins to Jay and 1hr 8 mins to Stowe.
> 
> Really not much of a difference. Jay pass is so much cheaper too.





Lots more snow same commute and much cheaper pass ,best trees in the east I hear you know were to go , Jay.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Google says 1 hr 28 mins to Jay and 1hr 8 mins to Stowe.
> 
> Really not much of a difference. Jay pass is so much cheaper too.



I find that hard to believe, but if the interweb says it, it must be true.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Google says 1 hr 28 mins to Jay and 1hr 8 mins to Stowe.
> 
> Really not much of a difference. Jay pass is so much cheaper too.



Wow.  Interesting.  Stowe is further than you think because once you get to Stowe proper you still have a ways to go up the Mountain Road before you get to the resort.  I would have said one hour.  

90 minutes or so to Jay seems about right, but it has been a long time since I drove from Middlebury via BTV to JPR.  

And a Jay pass includes Burke, which is great if you have not been.  BTV to Burke is not a short drive though.....


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## ScottySkis (Sep 11, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Interesting.  Stowe is further than you think because once you get to Stowe proper you still have a ways to go up the Mountain Road before you get to the resort.  I would have said one hour.
> 
> 90 minutes or so to Jay seems about right, but it has been a long time since I drove from Middlebury via BTV to JPR.
> 
> And a Jay pass includes Burke, which is great if you have not been.  BTV to Burke is not a short drive though.....





Is their back ways to Stowe?


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

HowieT2 said:


> I find that hard to believe, but if the interweb says it, it must be true.



I put in my starting point as Colchester if that makes a difference.

You don't believe because it seems like too short of time spans?


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Is their back ways to Stowe?



Notch closes down in the winter. Only one way in as far as I know.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Interesting.  Stowe is further than you think because once you get to Stowe proper you still have a ways to go up the Mountain Road before you get to the resort.  I would have said one hour.
> 
> 90 minutes or so to Jay seems about right, but it has been a long time since I drove from Middlebury via BTV to JPR.
> 
> And a Jay pass includes Burke, which is great if you have not been.  BTV to Burke is not a short drive though.....



This was what google said from Colchester to Stowe Mountain Resort, not the village of Stowe.

Never been to Burke but hear good things though!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

I found this posted about why someone skis at Stowe on the TGR forums. Accurate????

"I ski stowe because...
1. You don't have to avoid it on canadian holidays 
2. I have never waited more than 15 or 20 minutes in line on the worst days. If thats the case you just go hiking and take 2 hour long bc runs
3. The patrol guys are awesome, respect them and they leave you alone... Includes hucking the waterfall.
4. There are cliffs everywhere, and some huge ones too
5. Jay's ridge doesn't have anything that compares to the chin. 
6. The gondola is nice and warm, and the quad isn't nicknamed the "green mountain freezer"
7. There are sick lines on spruce that nobody skis
8. I like the feel of the stowe hardwood glades better than jay. 
9. Stowe has chutes such as the pipeline and goat chute that I have found nothing like at jay. 
10. Free samples at the cider mill and cabot on the ride home. 
11. I think that park is ok, I don't really know... I ride flat-tails. 
12. When on wind hold the double is often running and its a 15 minute hike to the top of the quad. 
13. Its a long way to stowe but its fast unlike meandering through bumblefuck northern vt 
14. 53 of my 93 ski days last winter were at stowe that brings daily cost to ski in at $8.01 a day. (spent around that on gas, an issue carpooling can solve) 
15. The kitchen wall is sick
16. The further back in the notch you go the sicker it gets 
17. We feel the need to ski with full avey gear during big storms 
18. You skate back to the resort down the notch road, no big jay car spotting involved (I hear the record is chin hellbrook 5 times in a day, I did 2 once and that wore me out)
19. You get to fuck with lots of rich people.
20. There are lots of places to stay on the mountain especially taft lodge.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> This was what google said from Colchester to Stowe Mountain Resort, not the village of Stowe.
> 
> Never been to Burke but hear good things though!



Yeah, I agree with you, re: time and distance.  I was just saying that folks seem to think that it is close to BTV, but the last leg from Stowe village up to the mountain is longer than one would think.  But you can take the cutoff through Moscow.  Just don't speed!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 11, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Lots more snow same commute and much cheaper pass ,best trees in the east I hear you know were to go , Jay.



Jay trees are awesome, no doubt! Lots of side country too.

I actually enjoy hiking back Rt 242 to the resort or Dip lot.


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## riverc0il (Sep 11, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I found this posted about why someone skis at Stowe on the TGR forums. Accurate????
> 
> "I ski stowe because...
> 1. You don't have to avoid it on canadian holidays
> ...


RE: #19 sounds like a major douche. Also, never waiting "more than 15-20 minutes on the worst days" isn't really a selling point and perhaps is a negative. Even at Jay, I don't think I've ever waited that long even on a powder day. 

Jay and Stowe are two very different mountains. Jay sprawls sideways and you can go into the woods almost anywhere. Stowe is 2k vert every run (except Spruce). The trees are very different. Stowe's trees are much more challenging. Jay's off map trees have a bit more mellow vibe. I feel Jay doesn't get tracked out quite as fast but I don't know Stowe as well as I know Jay. Jay's ridge isn't nearly as expansive as Stowe's ridge. You can have some fun off Jay's ridge but Stowe's ridge is really the pinnacle of what you can find by hiking an area in the east. Jay's vibe is more mellow even with the resort development: Stenger vs big corporate bank... ownership comes from a different perspective and it shows in the feel of the two places. Jay's trails get blown off faster than any other place but the woods are expansive and catch a lot of the blown around stuff. 

Personally, I like Smuggs better than either Jay or Stowe. Just wish it was closer. If it was, I'd be a passholder for sure.

Just decide what you want and go for it. Once you get north of the interstate, the snow total variances don't matter all that much. Stowe has the ridge and tighter/steeper trees. Jay is a bit more mellow, expansive boundary to boundary and beyond mellow tree skiing and a tiny bit of pucker off the ridge, Smuggs has the terrain and the vibe with some longer waits for the double but incredibly good woods. All three have hike to sidecountry with Stowe leading the three in this category. I'd also factor drive time in, you'll ski a lot more if you are only driving 1 hour... you'll go a lot more on questionable days but 1.5 hours maybe not as much.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 12, 2012)

13. Its a long way to stowe but its fast unlike meandering through bumblefuck northern vt.

LMAO


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 12, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> RE: #19 sounds like a major douche. Also, never waiting "more than 15-20 minutes on the worst days" isn't really a selling point and perhaps is a negative. Even at Jay, I don't think I've ever waited that long even on a powder day.
> 
> Jay and Stowe are two very different mountains. Jay sprawls sideways and you can go into the woods almost anywhere. Stowe is 2k vert every run (except Spruce). The trees are very different. Stowe's trees are much more challenging. Jay's off map trees have a bit more mellow vibe. I feel Jay doesn't get tracked out quite as fast but I don't know Stowe as well as I know Jay. Jay's ridge isn't nearly as expansive as Stowe's ridge. You can have some fun off Jay's ridge but Stowe's ridge is really the pinnacle of what you can find by hiking an area in the east. Jay's vibe is more mellow even with the resort development: Stenger vs big corporate bank... ownership comes from a different perspective and it shows in the feel of the two places. Jay's trails get blown off faster than any other place but the woods are expansive and catch a lot of the blown around stuff.
> 
> ...




Thanks! This is a great breakdown and helps my evaluation! 

I had considered a Bolton/Smuggs Pass but I have never been to either. Is the side country challenging?


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 12, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I had considered a Bolton/Smuggs Pass



Never mind here....that is Student only =(


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Thanks! This is a great breakdown and helps my evaluation!
> 
> I had considered a Bolton/Smuggs Pass but I have never been to either. Is the side country challenging?



Yeah, the Bolton/Smuggs deal is the new student option.  It used to be MRG/Bolton/Jay.


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## J.Spin (Sep 14, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Bolton and Stowe aren't too far off when it comes to snow accumulations. It always surprises me how folks don't know about Bolton's good snow.


 


riverc0il said:


> As a pass holder there for three years, I don't think they over report much. I have seen both under and over reporting but it is usually pretty close.


 


riverc0il said:


> Just decide what you want and go for it. Once you get north of the interstate, the snow total variances don't matter all that much.


 


Huck_It_Baby said:


> I think I'm just driving myself crazy trying to find a perfect balance. I love skiing all northern resorts so I'm sure I'll be a happy guy no matter what!


 
In terms of Vermont snowfall, there’s certainly a notable jump as one crosses the Winooski/I-89/Route 2 corridor, with sub 300” snowfall averages in the mountains to the south (Central Greens), and 300”+ amounts in the mountains to the north (Northern Greens).  But, among those northern resorts (Bolton, Stowe, Smugg’s, Jay), while there is an undeniable continuation of the trend of increasing snowfall as one heads northward, the differences aren’t gigantic.  As River indicated, what differences there are don’t matter as much – when you get close to 30 feet of snow a season, a couple feet here and there isn’t a big deal because you’ve got more than enough snow to cover everything either way.  After several recent seasons of skiing at mostly Bolton and Stowe, I agree with trailboss that the snowfall is pretty similar.  I’d definitely still give Stowe the edge (never bet against Mt. Mansfield as Powderfreak would say) but it seems like a big part of the difference in reported average snowfall (which is only about 20 inches) is because Bolton has a shorter season and stops counting snowfall a couple weeks earlier.  People often chide Jay Peak for exaggerating snowfall, but like River, I’ve never had an issue with their snow reporting.  As someone who measures a heck of a lot of snow each winter, I know how hard it can be at a windy place like Jay Peak, and I know how quickly that “Champlain Powder™” settles.  If you measure some of that fluff in the morning right after it’s fallen, and then check it (or ski it) again later in the day, you can get a substantially different measurement.  Jay Peak definitely gets the most snow of the Northern Vermont group in my opinion, but even using the resort’s snowfall numbers one can see that the difference is only about 10% vs. Stowe.  Jay Peak has some great skiing with all that snow, but they also seem to get the harshest wind and cold temperatures – you can get generally the same snow on Mt. Mansfield with what seems like a lot more protection from the broad Mansfield massif.

You’ve got the right attitude though Huck, you really can’t go wrong with any of the Northern Vermont resorts on the spine in terms of snowfall.  I think many people are surprised when they find out that the annual snowfall in the Northern Greens is greater than it is at many ski areas in the U.S. Rockies, and in the same range as all but the handful of snowiest resorts in that region.  With reference to Tony Crocker’s snowfall data, I discussed the snowfall comparison in the context or our experiences from our years in Montana in a post at American Weather.  There’s plenty of discussion and links to Tony’s data in that post if you want to check out the details.  There are actually only about a half dozen ski areas in the region that meet or surpass that 400” snowfall mark, with four of those being the areas in the Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon in Utah; it just tends to feel like more resorts than that because those areas are pretty well known.  In terms of overall snow preservation, you can’t beat the high elevations of the Rockies, but when it comes to chances for skiing dry, continental-style powder, the Northern Greens are a pretty sweet place to be.  If you’re in the Burlington area with a flexible schedule and a close eye on the local weather, you’re going to be able ski a lot of powder, regardless of what type of winter the region gets.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 14, 2012)

J.Spin said:


> If you’re in the Burlington area with a flexible schedule and a close eye on the local weather, you’re going to be able ski a lot of powder, regardless of what type of winter the region gets.



I have a weather problem! I spend a ton of time watching the radar, starring at topo maps, google earth, bing maps, sat data, etc. Some of my friends think I'm obsessive but approve because I know where to go for powder.

I move up in two weeks and will be working from home! Instead of getting dressed for work I plan on wearing my snow pants and goggles. I hope I rip more powder this season than any other! That's the goal at least. I'll be sure to check out Tony Crocker's snowfall data.

JSpin your in-depth knowledge and willingness to share is amazing! Thanks for spending the time to post and help me figure this out. Same with River, Trailboss, etc. I appreciate it guys!

I think Stowe is calling my name because of the notch and accessible side country/BC. It just seems more vast than Jay and more challenging.  Cost is ridiculous but I'll ski more than enough to make up for it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I think Stowe is calling my name because of the notch and accessible side country/BC. It just seems more vast than Jay and more challenging.  Cost is ridiculous but I'll ski more than enough to make up for it.



And for some reason at the end of the year you don't think you got enough "value" out of the pass, there are other options as have been discussed for 4 pages. 

Good luck!  Don't forget the trip reports!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 14, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Good luck!  Don't forget the trip reports!



Thanks. Trip reports and photos for sure!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2012)

Yes, we need Stowe TR's in here.  Please post us some stoke!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 14, 2012)

I promise TR's! Might start a blog of my adventures and will link the community in!


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## snowmonster (Sep 18, 2012)

Stowe just announced their 2012-13 pass rates: http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/2012-13-season-pass-rates/

Seven Plus/No blackout - $1,653 ($2,056 after 10/30)
Seven/With blackouts - $1,483 ($1,852 after 10/30)
Five/Mid-week - $974 ($1,217 after 10/30)


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## jaytrem (Sep 18, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Stowe just announced their 2012-13 pass rates: http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/2012-13-season-pass-rates/
> 
> Seven Plus/No blackout - $1,653 ($2,056 after 10/30)
> Seven/With blackouts - $1,483 ($1,852 after 10/30)
> Five/Mid-week - $974 ($1,217 after 10/30)



To get an idea of your break even point, here are the Stowe prices with the Vermont Travel Club Card...

http://www.classicskitours.net/TicketInformation/StoweTicketPrice.pdf

And their other discounts...

http://www.classicskitours.net/vermontTravel.asp


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 18, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> To get an idea of your break even point, here are the Stowe prices with the Vermont Travel Club Card...
> 
> http://www.classicskitours.net/TicketInformation/StoweTicketPrice.pdf
> 
> ...




I had this card last year. It's a pretty sweet deal. 

67 Dollars for a Stowe ticket and 44 for Jay. Makes me reconsider a season pass anywhere and just use the card to follow the snow around VT.


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## fbrissette (Sep 18, 2012)

J.Spin said:


> In terms of Vermont snowfall, there’s certainly a notable jump as one crosses the Winooski/I-89/Route 2 corridor, with sub 300” snowfall averages in the mountains to the south (Central Greens), and 300”+ amounts in the mountains to the north (Northern Greens).  But, among those northern resorts (Bolton, Stowe, Smugg’s, Jay), while there is an undeniable continuation of the trend of increasing snowfall as one heads northward, the differences aren’t gigantic.  As River indicated, what differences there are don’t matter as much – when you get close to 30 feet of snow a season, a couple feet here and there isn’t a big deal because you’ve got more than enough snow to cover everything either way.  After several recent seasons of skiing at mostly Bolton and Stowe, I agree with trailboss that the snowfall is pretty similar.  I’d definitely still give Stowe the edge (never bet against Mt. Mansfield as Powderfreak would say) but it seems like a big part of the difference in reported average snowfall (which is only about 20 inches) is because Bolton has a shorter season and stops counting snowfall a couple weeks earlier.  People often chide Jay Peak for exaggerating snowfall, but like River, I’ve never had an issue with their snow reporting.  As someone who measures a heck of a lot of snow each winter, I know how hard it can be at a windy place like Jay Peak, and I know how quickly that “Champlain Powder™” settles.  If you measure some of that fluff in the morning right after it’s fallen, and then check it (or ski it) again later in the day, you can get a substantially different measurement.  Jay Peak definitely gets the most snow of the Northern Vermont group in my opinion, but even using the resort’s snowfall numbers one can see that the difference is only about 10% vs. Stowe.  Jay Peak has some great skiing with all that snow, but they also seem to get the harshest wind and cold temperatures – you can get generally the same snow on Mt. Mansfield with what seems like a lot more protection from the broad Mansfield massif.



Great post.  Fully agree with this assessment.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 18, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Stowe just announced their 2012-13 pass rates: http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/2012-13-season-pass-rates/
> 
> Seven Plus/No blackout - $1,653 ($2,056 after 10/30)
> Seven/With blackouts - $1,483 ($1,852 after 10/30)
> Five/Mid-week - $974 ($1,217 after 10/30)


Your a day late & a dollar short.

This was already posted on pg. 9 of this thread.


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## snowmonster (Sep 18, 2012)

^ Good to know. I just got the email from Stowe this afternoon.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 18, 2012)

fbrissette said:


> Great post.  Fully agree with this assessment.



Yes perhaps the best post this thread has generated!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 18, 2012)

We need more posts like J. Spin's.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 19, 2012)

If anyone is interested I contacted Stowe about single ride lift tickets in the winter and they no longer offer this for ski/snowboarding. 

Foot traffic only.


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## snowmonster (Sep 19, 2012)

^ We had a long discussion here last year about skinning up Mansfield. Apparently, Stowe does not allow it. However, I've seen too many skinners on the side of the trails to conclude that Stowe observes this more on the breach. I guess it's a roll of the dice if you go up Toll Road on a dawn patrol. If you want to play it safe, skin up the backside through the cross-country center (minimal fee).


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## riverc0il (Sep 19, 2012)

Toll Road or Cross Country center for a dawn patrol? Ouch, that would take a long time. Straight up Gondolier, man! Or Nosedive for the other side.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> ^ We had a long discussion here last year about skinning up Mansfield. Apparently, Stowe does not allow it. However, I've seen too many skinners on the side of the trails to conclude that Stowe observes this more on the breach. I guess it's a roll of the dice if you go up Toll Road on a dawn patrol. If you want to play it safe, skin up the backside through the cross-country center (minimal fee).




What about heading up the long trail?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> What about heading up the long trail?




From the south it is not practical considering the approach distance.  From the north it is frickin steep.  Most folks ski down the north (east) side.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> From the south it is not practical considering the approach distance.  From the north it is frickin steep.  Most folks ski down the north (east) side.



Agh yeah I meant from the north into the notch.

Can't be much steeper than going up Nosedive or Gondolier as rivercoil mentioned.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Agh yeah I meant from the north into the notch.
> 
> Can't be much steeper than going up Nosedive or Gondolier as rivercoil mentioned.



I remember it being pretty frickin steep.  Much steeper than Gondolier.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I remember it being pretty frickin steep.  Much steeper than Gondolier.



I'll take your word for it since I've only skied Stowe once and most lifts were on wind hold. Never got over to that side of the mountain.

I move up to VT in a week and will be hiking all the routes this fall to get an idea of the steepness and lay of the land.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 20, 2012)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I'll take your word for it since I've only skied Stowe once and most lifts were on wind hold. Never got over to that side of the mountain.
> 
> I move up to VT in a week and will be hiking all the routes this fall to get an idea of the steepness and lay of the land.





Can I crash at your home, lol. Good luck with your move, lots of snow and less people on the hill , you probably hate it up their.


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## snowmonster (Sep 20, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Toll Road or Cross Country center for a dawn patrol? Ouch, that would take a long time. Straight up Gondolier, man! Or Nosedive for the other side.



I only thought of those routes because I was thinking it was less exposed to patrol just in case they decided to enforce the no skinning policy. Gondolier is a straigh-shot but too much out in the open. I have this plan to do a backcountry tour there: Bruce to Overland to Steeple. Tried it last year but I ran out of time. Perhaps the third time's the charm.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Can I crash at your home, lol. Good luck with your move, lots of snow and less people on the hill , you probably hate it up their.



Thanks!

Yeah it's real horrible in VT. Views of ADK, lake Champlain and the Green mtns really bring me down. I'm just going to miss the crime and murder rate here in Rochester so much.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> I only thought of those routes because I was thinking it was less exposed to patrol just in case they decided to enforce the no skinning policy. Gondolier is a straigh-shot but too much out in the open. I have this plan to do a backcountry tour there: Bruce to Overland to Steeple. Tried it last year but I ran out of time. Perhaps the third time's the charm.



It's funny I had always assumed Stowe would be skinning friendly given all of the old back country CCC trails. I've seen ppl skin right under the lifts at Jay and Killington.

I'm all for your tour over to steeple!


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## snowmonster (Sep 20, 2012)

Yeah, I thought it was skinning friendly too. I also thought that because Mansfield was on national forest land, you could do that without paying a fee. I thought the fee was only for if you decided to ride the lifts. Anyway, thanks to the good folks on AZ, I was set straight and am no longer in danger of criminal trespass.

I have this checklist of stuff to do at Stowe/Mansfield. Hope to knock-off a number of them this year. Let's go!


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 20, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Yeah, I thought it was skinning friendly too. I also thought that because Mansfield was on national forest land, you could do that without paying a fee. I thought the fee was only for if you decided to ride the lifts. Anyway, thanks to the good folks on AZ, I was set straight and am no longer in danger of criminal trespass.
> 
> I have this checklist of stuff to do at Stowe/Mansfield. Hope to knock-off a number of them this year. Let's go!



Well anywhere outside of the their dotted orange line boarder on the trail map should be fair game since it is forest land, no?

90% of my season is looking like a Mt. Mansfield check list!!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2012)

Yeah, like Killington, Burke, Jay, and others, the ski areas are located on leased state forest land.  But even then you are paying for the lifts and access to groomed trails, so hence the lift ticket.  But nothing is stopping you from accessing other land in the park.


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## J.Spin (Sep 27, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, like Killington, Burke, Jay, and others, the ski areas are located on leased state forest land. But even then you are paying for the lifts and access to groomed trails, so hence the lift ticket. But nothing is stopping you from accessing other land in the park.


It’s good to bring this up once in a while because not everyone is aware of how these policies work.  Even though the ski areas are on “public” land, the ski areas are leasing that land (or have some similar contract in place), and have control over it.  People will sometimes use the analogy of someone feeling like they can go into your apartment anytime they want simply because you are only “renting” and don’t own it.  The good news is that many of the ski areas around here in Northern/North-Central Vermont are reasonably receptive to people earning turns within certain limits.

It looked like there was some confusion earlier in the thread, but Stowe is probably the most supportive resort around in terms of people earning turns – they are basically at the extreme end of the spectrum and do everything short of outright advertising for people to come to the slopes to hike and ski.  Powderfreak (who works for Stowe) summed it up pretty well in a post at American Weather this spring:

http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index....eason-thread/page__view__findpost__p__1480981

In my experience, Bolton and Mad River are also fine with people hiking for turns.  I’ve earned turns at Jay Peak with no problem, and Pico pre-season last year, although I don’t frequent them enough to have a feel for what their policies are.  Unless I hear otherwise though, my personal approach for the Northern/Central Vermont Ski Areas with which I’m most familiar, is to assume that they are at least tolerant, even if not supportive, of people earning turns (as long as it’s done tactfully – see below).  The current exception to that rule is Sugarbush.  Sugarbush has definitely had a policy of no earned turns in recent seasons.

So, while you typically don’t have to be looking over your shoulder when hiking for turns at most mountains around here, you certainly don’t want to just head out there with the impression that you can do whatever you want, whenever you want.  Even at the most supportive places (e.g. Stowe), you really don’t want be skinning up during operating hours, and especially not on trails that have skier traffic.  This is a recipe for accidents, and ski patrol will likely take issue.  In season, shoot for dawn patrol, and aim so that you are all done before the mountain opens (or at least done with your ascent by the time the lifts start running).  Alternatively there is evening after the resort has closed, but getting easy fresh tracks with that setup will usually depend on a storm being in progress or just starting.  Pre- and post-season are of course great times for earning turns, since you don’t have to worry about opening and closing times.  In season, I’m most comfortable earning turns at places to which I’ve got a season’s pass (generally Bolton/Stowe in recent years), because there is still always the “theft of services” argument out there.  Even if you don’t use an area’s lifts to access their terrain, you are still potentially using the parking areas, cut trails, grooming, etc. – all of which they put money into maintaining, and none of which you necessarily paid for.  Not that I won’t earn in season turns at places to which I don’t have a pass, but I’m typically going to be hiking at the mountains I frequent most anyway.  The bonus is that I’m potentially releasing them from some liability (which I’m sure is one of the bigger concerns against letting people earn turns) because I’ve signed a pass agreement.  That’s a subtlety, and may not help depending on how the contract is written, but just something to think about.  Whatever the case, when earning turns at a ski area, try to stay out of the way of mountain operations.  Powderfreak will often give Stowe updates on major mountain projects to SkiVT-L in this regard, such as the very informative post below:

http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1011A&L=SKIVT-L&P=R1272&m=155400

Overall, just be respectful if someone from the mountain approaches you and inquires about what you’re doing.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Sep 27, 2012)

J.Spin said:


> It looked like there was some confusion earlier in the thread, but Stowe is probably the most supportive resort around in terms of people earning turns – they are basically at the extreme end of the spectrum and do everything short of outright advertising for people to come to the slopes to hike and ski.  Powderfreak (who works for Stowe) summed it up pretty well in a post at American Weather this spring:
> 
> http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index....eason-thread/page__view__findpost__p__1480981



Great post J.spin. Good to hear that Stowe isn't as closed off as we had touched on earlier in this thread. Thanks for the links and info. =)


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## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Awesome post J. Spin.


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## snowmonster (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanks, JSpin. So, as far as Stowe is concerned, just don't skin on the trails during operating hours, right?


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## riverc0il (Sep 27, 2012)

Stowe recently put out a fluff piece on their policy being no skinning ever period. My suspicion was that it was just the lawyers trying to cover their asses. I've always found skinning to be in the culture at Stowe and I suspect that recent announcement will have no teeth.


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## snowmonster (Sep 27, 2012)

^ This was in Stowe magazine, right? If so, I read that article. See, that's where I'm getting all thrown off about Stowe. IIRC, the article basically said no skinning whatsoever. Of course, any time you go to Stowe, there's always one or two skiers heading up the Toll Road or whatever -- in the middle of the ski day. I'm pretty clear that you can skin up when the lifts are closed at dawn or at night or in the early or late season when Stowe closes. I guess all I want is a clear rule during the ski day: if I skin up, will patrol chase me at some point and haul me in for theft of services/trespassing, etc.? Or, will they just see me, wave and wish me a nice day? 

If the answer is: "well, it's prohibited but patrol rarely enforces it," I'd hate to be the guy they make an example of. With my luck, that's exactly what will happen.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm sure it is like Sugarbush: the only ones who get in trouble are those that are dumb enough to make a spectacle rather than just going about their business and avoiding busy areas/main trails.

I will never forget the guy who was bitching here about skinning at SB and getting caught when he went right up one of the main thoroughfares while extensive early season snowmaking and grooming were going on, complete with several employees at work.  Not very smart.


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## billski (Sep 28, 2012)

Scotty said:


> +1


+1


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## J.Spin (Sep 30, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Thanks, JSpin. So, as far as Stowe is concerned, just don't skin on the trails during operating hours, right?


That’s probably a decent way to look at it.  As for the recent announcement about the no skinning, I didn’t get a chance to see it, but I suspect it’s like others have mentioned – that’s probably the official wording for legal purposes, but practically speaking it may not be enforced that way.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Oct 1, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sure it is like Sugarbush: the only ones who get in trouble are those that are dumb enough to make a spectacle rather than just going about their business and avoiding busy areas/main trails.
> 
> I will never forget the guy who was bitching here about skinning at SB and getting caught when he went right up one of the main thoroughfares while extensive early season snowmaking and grooming were going on, complete with several employees at work.  Not very smart.



Haha. Common sense escapes some people.


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