# killington closing day - sunday 4/25



## skiadikt (Apr 20, 2010)

many of us had high hopes for an extended season this year. very unbeastly. from the k blog:

Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season. Our mountain operations team has done an outstanding job providing a quality spring product. However, based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note. This weekend’s weather forecast, which is calling for sunshine and temperatures into the 40s and lower 50s, will provide a great opportunity to close out the season.


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

Balls....


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm just going off of pictures, but isn't there enough base on lower Super Star that they could make a path to the lift and have it last one more week?  

Maybe close mid-week to preserve some snow and open just for that May weekend?


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## Riverskier (Apr 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm just going off of pictures, but isn't there enough base on lower Super Star that they could make a path to the lift and have it last one more week?
> 
> Maybe close mid-week to preserve some snow and open just for that May weekend?



Based on all of the reports I have read (no firsthand knowledge), snow is not the issue. They are blaming a poor weather forecast, but it sounds like purely a financial decision.


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

that just fucking sucks!


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## Vortex (Apr 20, 2010)

Very sad to see.  Lots of good back and forth compeition, but never like to see one of the big resort have to close early.   

The pass holders are the ones hurt the most.   Short season for many places. The River opened real early, but closed a week early.   Many places got a late start and an early exit. Just not a good year for snow.


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## Geoff (Apr 20, 2010)

Nice job selling spring passes that only worked for 33 days.   They'll close with wall-to-wall on Superstar after selling passes promising May 2nd.  Way to go.   I hope somebody takes it to the AG office to get a class action pro-rated refund.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 20, 2010)

Killington strikes again!


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

but Spring scares the shit out of them.


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## ozzy (Apr 20, 2010)

Lets face it. HS was right all along. 

KILLINGTON = EPIC FAIL


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## roark (Apr 20, 2010)

Funny, just got a buy your season pass email today... thanks for making the decision not to buy a little easier.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Nice job selling spring passes that only worked for 33 days.   They'll close with wall-to-wall on Superstar after selling passes promising May 2nd.  Way to go.   I hope somebody takes it to the AG office to get a class action pro-rated refund.



Did they promise May 2nd?

If so, Nyberg better be out there with a shovel clearing the snow off the bottom of Superstar as people might have a case.


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## Geoff (Apr 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Did they promise May 2nd?
> 
> If so, Nyberg better be out there with a shovel clearing the snow off the bottom of Superstar as people might have a case.



Yes, they promised May 2nd, "weather and conditions permitting".   I think that if it's sunny on May 1st & 2nd and Superstar still has wall-to-wall cover, anybody who bought a season pass should get a 1/26th refund and anybody who bought a spring pass should get a 1/6th refund.   I wonder what the Vermont AG's office will have to say about it. 

http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/new-killington-spring-pass



> This spring we’re also offering a Spring Pass with unlimited skiing and riding for just $169 from March 22 through May 2 (weather and snow conditions permitting). Spring passes go on sale today at 2 p.m.


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## frankm938 (Apr 20, 2010)

not trying to stir the pot but why does killington always seem to get this reaction when they do anything.  other resorts can tell you they are closing (or replacing a lift, or making snow/not making snow on a particular trail ect... ect... )and everyone seems to be fine with their reasons for doing so.   killingtons reasons never seem good enough for anyone, when other resorts seem to get a pass.  just curious why?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

from the outside looking in, it appears that K often over promises and under delivers.  They have that going against them and a long history of running deep into May if not June.


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## Geoff (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> not trying to stir the pot but why does killington always seem to get this reaction when they do anything.  other resorts can tell you they are closing (or replacing a lift, or making snow/not making snow on a particular trail ect... ect... )and everyone seems to be fine with their reasons for doing so.   killingtons reasons never seem good enough for anyone, when other resorts seem to get a pass.  just curious why?



This one is a pretty straightforward breach of contract.


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> not trying to stir the pot but why does killington always seem to get this reaction when they do anything.  other resorts can tell you they are closing (or replacing a lift, or making snow/not making snow on a particular trail ect... ect... )and everyone seems to be fine with their reasons for doing so.   killingtons reasons never seem good enough for anyone, when other resorts seem to get a pass.  just curious why?



you cant use reason or logic in a killington thread.  just throw haymakers and shit and watch the chaos unfold.

come on frank, you know the deal by now.....:lol:


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 20, 2010)

I can only assume, by the shocking reaction by the usual suspects, now known as the "Paul Pierce Injury Reaction", that kmart held a gun to their heads to force them to buy.  :wink:


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## severine (Apr 20, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Yes, they promised May 2nd, "weather and conditions permitting".


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this CYA kind of statement could be argued as: it was a warmer than usual spring so conditions did not permit remaining open. It's very open-ended.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

one thing I will give K credit for is I think $42 is a fair price.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

severine said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this CYA kind of statement could be argued as: it was a warmer than usual spring so conditions did not permit remaining open. It's very open-ended.



for sure

but if they've got top to bottom coverage on Superstar, paying customers aren't going to see a reason other than financial that they chose to close.


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I can only assume, by the shocking reaction by the usual suspects, now known as the "Paul Pierce Injury Reaction", that kmart held a gun to their heads to force them to buy.  :wink:



held a gun to their heads to buy???


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> not trying to stir the pot but why does killington always seem to get this reaction when they do anything.  other resorts can tell you they are closing (or replacing a lift, or making snow/not making snow on a particular trail ect... ect... )and everyone seems to be fine with their reasons for doing so.   killingtons reasons never seem good enough for anyone, when other resorts seem to get a pass.  just curious why?



for me -

1st and foremost - a personal disappointment. I've had May 1st/2nd on the radar since Jan as my would be last day of the season...  as other mountains closed i focused more and more on K and now have no viable options so i'm just pissed.

BUT - K sure has, IMHO, been touting the May 2 close date a lot recently and now,  more than a week and a half before that date they are pulling the weather/conditions crap??? seriously?   i understand they can't control the weather but to call it off now, so far in advance,  seems odd.  

i had Hunter on the radar for a ski date earlier this month.. they advertised a date, i made plans. they failed to meet the promise but i think they did it in an admirable way.  up front  on the communication about closing mid week to preserve  with hopes of re-opening for the weekend.  it didn't work out but i felt like they tried.   

blowing off the date this early makes me feel like they don't give a damn.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 20, 2010)

Someone should rent a bus to drive everyone up to the Loaf.


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## Geoff (Apr 20, 2010)

severine said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this CYA kind of statement could be argued as: it was a warmer than usual spring so conditions did not permit remaining open. It's very open-ended.



Not really.   Killington ran until the first weekend of May last year and had shrunk down to just the Superstar lift with nothing really skiable but Superstar and a connect-the-dots way down Skyelark-Highroad-Bittersweet that was very thin cover.   Given that they offered that product in May last year and can easily offer the same level of product this year, I think one can make a reasonable legal case for breach of contract since they advertised May 2nd on their spring pass and "early May" on their regular season pass.

If you show up with a photo of edge-to-edge cover on Superstar on May 2nd, I think the Attorney General's office will make them refund 1/6th of their spring pass reveue at a minimum.


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## Greg (Apr 20, 2010)

I love it when people start suggesting legal action... :roll: I only wish I had enough free time to even remotely consider that.

My opinion is that yeah, it sucks they're pulling the plug, especially if they could reasonably pull it off. In a weird way though, it's almost a relief knowing I'm definitely done now. I really wanted a May day this year (lift-serviced for all you turn earners) but I had already mostly accepted the fact that I was done on the 15th. Glad I got the last of Ovation that day.

Time to get on the MTB. Should be a great summer for several reasons. See you next year.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

put a sock in it Greg.  we all know you love the ratings such moves by K creates.  :razz:


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

Greg said:


> Should be a great summer for several reasons. See you next year.



It's the summer of love for Greg and his band....

let your freak flag fly brother.  :lol:


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

on top of it, they announce on Facebook the closing and then post pictures of the phenomenal conditions they had today.  torture!!


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

alrighty then, so who's in for the 25th?  i'm gonna work it like a rented mule and see if i can make it happen.


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

2knees said:


> alrighty then, so who's in for the 25th?  i'm gonna work it like a rented mule and see if i can make it happen.



we get back from FL the 24th @ 10 PM. . . got to figure out the right time to ask for permission. doubtful


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## 2knees (Apr 20, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> we get back from FL the 24th @ 10 PM. . . got to figure out the right time to ask for permission. doubtful




bradley?  I'll send Cheeves in the bentley to pick you up.


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## Skimaine (Apr 20, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Someone should rent a bus to drive everyone up to the Loaf.



+1

Vote with your feet . . . err skies and snowboards  . . . and show some love for the King of Spring.  Head to the 'Loaf.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Very sad to see.  Lots of good back and forth compeition, but never like to see one of the big resort have to close early.



Certainly understand and empathize because Sugarbush closed saying the same thing about no demand and bad weather...even though Stein's had a lot of snow on it.  



> The pass holders are the ones hurt the most.   Short season for many places. The River opened real early, but closed a week early.   Many places got a late start and an early exit. Just not a good year for snow.



I agree and I took a hit this season...at Sugarbush we lost four weeks of skiing--two on both ends of the season.  The one silver lining is that pass prices did not go up and we are certain that the lifts will spin next season.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

2knees said:


> alrighty then, so who's in for the 25th?  i'm gonna work it like a rented mule and see if i can make it happen.



1. deadheadskier


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2010)

severine said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this CYA kind of statement could be argued as: it was a warmer than usual spring so conditions did not permit remaining open. It's very open-ended.



+ 1.


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## Shredder of Gnar (Apr 20, 2010)

Greg said:


> ...but I had already mostly accepted the fact that I was done on the 15th. Glad I got the last of Ovation that day.



I too thought Ovation would be toast when I returned today, but was (pleasantly) shocked that it was way better than last Thursday! (Many others agreed.)  Whatever combination of rain/ice/snow along with the cold temps over the weekend made it unbelievable -- one more good day tomorrow on O, then it'll be toast!  Lower lark also awesome today, and those big, deep lines on SS were also much more skiiable due to the softer snow -- closing weekend :<( will be a don't-miss!!


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## frankm938 (Apr 20, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> for me -
> 
> 1st and foremost - a personal disappointment. I've had May 1st/2nd on the radar since Jan as my would be last day of the season...  as other mountains closed i focused more and more on K and now have no viable options so i'm just pissed.
> 
> ...



this is what im talking about.   its ok for hunter to advertise a date and not deliver but its fine because you feel like they tried.  imagine how long this thread would be if killington ever pulled a stunt like that?
would it be better if they waited until april 30th to tell people that they are closing on may 1st?  people would be complaining about how they rented rooms and made plans to come up and killington didnt give enough of a heads up about the closing date.
bottom line is that killington is one of a few mtns open because they spent money on snowmaking all season long when other resorts didnt 
why didnt people bitch at sugarbush, stowe, okemo sundown ect... when they closed earlier than expected because of the warm weather/lack of march snow?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

whoa frank, take it easy man.  folks round these parts don't take too kindly to killington defenders.


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> this is what im talking about.   its ok for hunter to advertise a date and not deliver but its fine because you feel like they tried.  imagine how long this thread would be if killington ever pulled a stunt like that?



my frustrations comes from -  how do they know it won't be skiable next weekend? weather forecasts change, to say 10+ days in advance they are closing due to weather doesn't seem sincere to me.

if you want to win me over as a consumer then say things don't look good, close for mid-week and evaluate the situation before making the call as to whether you can offer a viable "product" May 1/2.  or update the disclaimer on the spring fling pass to say "conditions/weather/economic viability permitting"

planning a ski trip for May is never a sure thing, booking rooms is a risk as well. i think we all know that.


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## 180 (Apr 20, 2010)

We are there!


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> my frustrations comes from -  how do they know it won't be skiable next weekend? weather forecasts change,



this is very true.  Last Wednesday it looked like rain at Sugarloaf for the weekend.  Ended up with a foot of snow Friday through Sunday.


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## Rambo (Apr 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> one thing I will give K credit for is I think $42 is a fair price.



$39. if you have a seasons pass from any other ski area.


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## skiadikt (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> this is what im talking about.   its ok for hunter to advertise a date and not deliver but its fine because you feel like they tried.  imagine how long this thread would be if killington ever pulled a stunt like that?
> would it be better if they waited until april 30th to tell people that they are closing on may 1st?  people would be complaining about how they rented rooms and made plans to come up and killington didnt give enough of a heads up about the closing date.
> bottom line is that killington is one of a few mtns open because they spent money on snowmaking all season long when other resorts didnt
> why didnt people bitch at sugarbush, stowe, okemo sundown ect... when they closed earlier than expected because of the warm weather/lack of march snow?



there are a couple issues. first, k will be closing with more than enough snow to keep superstar open another week. the other areas mentioned probably didn't have enough snow to piece together a decent run. and closing it based on the reliability of a forecast 10 days out is just lame. also k built it's reputation on offering the longest season, so unfortunately for them that's an expectation that many people continue to hold them up to and when they don't deliver people are pissed especially if the run is still skiable. it's one thing to close due to a lack of snow, it's another to close when you could be open. and using "the beast" in their marketing in addition to announcing an early may closing starting with the sale of season passes last year led a lot of people to believe that perhaps powdr "got it". obviously they haven't ....


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## riverc0il (Apr 20, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> many of us had high hopes for an extended season this year. very unbeastly. from the k blog:
> 
> Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season. Our mountain operations team has done an outstanding job providing a quality spring product. However, based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, *it is time for us to end the season on a high note*. This weekend’s weather forecast, which is calling for sunshine and temperatures into the 40s and lower 50s, will provide a great opportunity to close out the season.


Ending the season on a high note for THE BEAST should mean being the last ski area in the east to close... especially if THEY CAN.

:flame:

:uzi:

the beast is dead, long live the beast (lower cased for emphasis).


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## roark (Apr 20, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> also k built it's reputation on offering the longest season, so unfortunately for them that's an expectation that many people continue to hold them up to and when they don't deliver people are pissed especially if the run is still skiable. it's one thing to close due to a lack of snow, it's another to close when you could be open. and using "the beast" in their marketing in addition to announcing an early may closing starting with the sale of season passes last year led a lot of people to believe that perhaps powdr "got it". obviously they haven't ....




^^^ this. I'll ski Magic as much as I can, but usually hedge with another pass from an area that opens earlier & closes later. If not, I have no interest. K & Snow are the usual suspects, but after this season neither is getting any season pass $$$ from me. I'll just get a couple SkiVT 3 packs to fill in the early/late season.


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## riverc0il (Apr 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> not trying to stir the pot but why does killington always seem to get this reaction when they do anything.  other resorts can tell you they are closing (or replacing a lift, or making snow/not making snow on a particular trail ect... ect... )and everyone seems to be fine with their reasons for doing so.   killingtons reasons never seem good enough for anyone, when other resorts seem to get a pass.  just curious why?


Because other resorts do not claim to be *THE BEAST* insinuating they are returning to their former core values and principles and image. Other resorts don't market and promote one thing and then do something completely different. If Killington just came out and said "this is a financial decision, there are not enough skiers, we are loosing money, please understand this is our position and we would stay open if more skiers showed up" then I think they would get more respect. But the announcement put forth claims concerns about weather A FULL WEEK AWAY. :-o They could just not open mid-week next week and postpone the decision until next Thursday. 

It all comes down to inconsistency. Other areas are not inconsistent and back up their hype and don't posture for something they are not.

I gave Killington a fair shake in my most recent report from four weeks ago. I proposed the question "Is THE BEAST Back?" and ultimately I ended my report with indications that signs look good but how they handle the closing of the season will ultimately speak the loudest regarding if this is marketing hype or marketing fact. I think most folks are too quick to attack Killington since the ownership transition. But I can not respect the hype machine and lack of effort and lack of forthrightness in their explanation.


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2010)

*setting expectations*


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## riverc0il (Apr 20, 2010)

gmcunni said:


>


Nice PS job. We all know that the Big K does not over promise and under deliver. Never.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 21, 2010)

gmcunni said:


>



WOW, whole inch snow!  

It should read......

"We got a whole entire inch of snow last night, so there is no reason to drive north to mountain in the middle of nowhere that has nearly half their terrain open, after all we are the mountain formally know as the beast, formally know as the king of spring, and formally the mountain that said we were going to stay open til may 2nd, of course we are none of those things so piss off and let us start counting our money".


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## frankm938 (Apr 21, 2010)

this is too funny!  almost every eastern resort closed earlier than their target date and thats ok because they always close early.  but killington closing a week early with snow on one trail (because they, unlike the closed resorts, actually blew snow on SS all season) gets this kind of reaction.
there are things i dont like about the place but being one of the last resorts open every year isnt one of them


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## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2010)

Frank, you don't think it's wrong of Killington to tweet on 4/18 that they just got new snow and will be open through May 2nd, then two days later do a complete about face?


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## SkiDork (Apr 21, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> this is too funny!  almost every eastern resort closed earlier than their target date and thats ok because they always close early.  but killington closing a week early with snow on one trail (because they, unlike the closed resorts, actually blew snow on SS all season) gets this kind of reaction.
> there are things i dont like about the place but being one of the last resorts open every year isnt one of them



skiingsnow?


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## Vortex (Apr 21, 2010)

ozzy said:


> Lets face it. HS was right all along.
> 
> KILLINGTON = EPIC FAIL


he did question if they would open for Turkey day.  Sad that he had some of this right.


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## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> this is too funny!  almost every eastern resort closed earlier than their target date and thats ok because they always close early.  but killington closing a week early with snow on one trail (because they, unlike the closed resorts, actually blew snow on SS all season) gets this kind of reaction.
> there are things i dont like about the place but being one of the last resorts open every year isnt one of them


Most areas that closed earlier than projected did so because of lack of snow. Those that bailed early because of lack of skier visits were pretty blunt about that fact being the reason and were not making long projections but rather had been hedging for weeks (Sugarbush). Mostly though, places just ran out of snow. Which is not the case at Killington (yet). So your comparison is not accurate, IMO. It is not so much that Killington is closing a week early (in and of itself) that is getting the reaction but all the little details surrounding that fact. But rather that they are doing so giving dubious reasons, projecting what snow they will have left ten days from now, and only this past weekend were still promoting their May date as a boast (and staking their moniker on that boast), etc. Until Killington gives up its marketing position as an early/late season leader and until they let go of their past image and fully adopt a new brand and image unrelated to its past, Killington will always be held to different standards than other resorts regardless.


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## Vortex (Apr 21, 2010)

They talked smack and opened late. Sour grapes Talked smack closed early. Brought 
Preston smith in to show the ties to the past.   Offered a pass that won't get its full use.

  I think if they just opened when they could, closed when they needed to and state that is financial and let the snow talk it would have gone over easier.  Many would have still been mad, but not felt they were  given marketing speak.  Early and late season is about Season pass sales.  Boyne is looking good out of all of this.

Steve pretty much nailed it in the post above.


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

The sense of entitlement surrounding this event is staggering!


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## midd (Apr 21, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Most areas that closed earlier than projected did so because of lack of snow. Those that bailed early because of lack of skier visits were pretty blunt about that fact being the reason and were not making long projections but rather had been hedging for weeks (Sugarbush). Mostly though, places just ran out of snow. Which is not the case at Killington (yet). So your comparison is not accurate, IMO. It is not so much that Killington is closing a week early (in and of itself) that is getting the reaction but all the little details surrounding that fact. But rather that they are doing so giving dubious reasons, projecting what snow they will have left ten days from now, and only this past weekend were still promoting their May date as a boast (and staking their moniker on that boast), etc. Until Killington gives up its marketing position as an early/late season leader and until they let go of their past image and fully adopt a new brand and image unrelated to its past, Killington will always be held to different standards than other resorts regardless.





marketing is 90% hubris and bullshit and 10% fact.  That tweets from a marketing person at a ski area are being treated as gospel does, as drjeff says, reek of entitlement.


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## SkiDork (Apr 21, 2010)

midd said:


> marketing is 90% hubris and bullshit and 10% fact.  That tweets from a marketing person at a ski area are being treated as gospel does, as drjeff says, reek of entitlement.



huh?  Not sure I'm following this logic.

Bottom line:  Weather and conditions are not the cause of the closure.  Superstar has plenty of snow on it to make it through 5/2.  The decision is purely business/financial.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2010)

midd said:


> marketing is 90% hubris and bullshit and 10% fact.  That tweets from a marketing person at a ski area are being treated as gospel does, as drjeff says, reek of entitlement.



and consumers have every right to call out that bullshit.  If you're a paying customer, you are indeed entitled.  I don't have any skin in the game.  I'll be skiing Killington on Sunday and will have a good time.  I do feel bad for K regulars as I often feel they're being mislead.  From afar Killington for several years now has appeared to be the the most dishonest in the business about how they market their product/brand.  A little honesty goes a long way.  Boyne has that figured out.


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## severine (Apr 21, 2010)

While I'm reading this thread, the ad at the top says:

"At the beast, a season pass is a badge of honor."

:lol:


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## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> and consumers have every right to call out that bullshit.  If you're a paying customer, you are indeed entitled. .



The simple fact is, that with the spring pass, from March 22nd when it went on sale to April 25th, that's 35 potential days of use for the pass which works out to $4.83 a day to ski/ride.   Whether or not a spring pass holder used all those days isn't any issue in this discussion, and the break even point, even at their reduced spring rates, was basically 4 days of skiing/riding. Bottomline is, for whatever reason (sounds like natural weather phenomena is what they're saying), Killington is making a business descision, that while it may be a bit unpopular, still offered up a product at a very affordable price.


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## ozzy (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with Bob and Steve as well. The dealio is that they dont have any more reservations with the British tourists and all the staggering spring breaks have ended. next week would be a loss to run the superstar chair. There were however quite a few day ticket holders out on Tuesday.
I would be more satisfied if they said we're running out of visitors or things dont make sense to go on financially when there's tons of snow there then to be straight up lied to by say we're shuttin down due to the extended forecasts

over promising and under delivering = EPIC FAIL

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=119422614735770&ref=nf


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## powbmps (Apr 21, 2010)

My wife was in North Carolina over the weekend and saw something on the national news (GMA maybe?) mentioning that Killington was open until May 2nd.

I don't know what that has to do with anything.  

I was planning on getting one last weekend day in on the 1st so I'll have to agree....EPIC FAIL :razz:.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The simple fact is, that with the spring pass, from March 22nd when it went on sale to April 25th, that's 35 potential days of use for the pass which works out to $4.83 a day to ski/ride.   Whether or not a spring pass holder used all those days isn't any issue in this discussion, and the break even point, even at their reduced spring rates, was basically 4 days of skiing/riding. Bottomline is, for whatever reason (sounds like natural weather phenomena is what they're saying), Killington is making a business descision, that while it may be a bit unpopular, still offered up a product at a very affordable price.



The simple fact is that they've been practically screaming from the Mountain top as recently as Sunday that they'd be open until May 2nd if they had the snow.  By all accounts that I've read, they will have it.  I really don't think the value of the Spring Pass is the big issue here and that Geoff's suggestion was more a 'stick it to the man' thought because once again it would appear that Killington has over promised and under delivered; something they've become reknown for since powdr took ownership.  That's the problem people are having.  They see companies like Peaks and Boyne being much more straight shooters.

I don't see a problem with people voicing this displeasure.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2010)

I didn't read all the posts here, but I think the difference between Hunter closing early had to do with the fact that they made their decision after several days of pouring rain and 85* temps.  Not before it.


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## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The sense of entitlement surrounding this event is staggering!



Typically I would agree with this sentiment. I have never understood the sense of entitlement people seem to have regarding how their ski area is run. They are private businesses and the owners can run them how they see fit. If you don't like it, leave!

However, this situation is completely different. Killington sold passes on the premise they would operate through May 2nd weather and conditions permitting. They made a decision to close early purely for financial reasons. They have no idea what the weather and conditions will be 12 days out. Customers were mislead and this is bad business!


----------



## moguler6 (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm a big Killington supporter and I don't agree with most of the complaints on AZ about Killington, but I must say I'm disappointed by this.  If it was getting sketchy up there, then fine, but there's is plenty of snow Superstar.  There's still plenty of snow off the peak and the canyon.  We were lapping OL this past Sunday which had plenty of coverage.  This has to be financial because they have the snow.

OL on 4/18
￼
View attachment 3524


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I have to ask, did the disclaimer when buying spring passes say "weather and conditions permitting", if so could Killilngton argue conditions mean just not slope conditions but also economic conditions?:razz:


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## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 21, 2010)

moguler6 said:


> I'm a big Killington supporter and I don't agree with most of the complaints on AZ about Killington, but I must say I'm disappointed by this.  If it was getting sketchy up there, then fine, but there's is plenty of snow Superstar.  There's still plenty of snow off the peak and the canyon.  We were lapping OL this past Sunday which had plenty of coverage.  This has to be financial because they have the snow.
> 
> OL on 4/18
> ￼
> View attachment 3524



Just curious as your photo doesn't show the runout, but does the runout to the lift on SS still have plenty of snow?


----------



## SkiDork (Apr 21, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Just curious as your photo doesn't show the runout, but does the runout to the lift on SS still have plenty of snow?



That was a photo of OL not SS

But the SS runout had plenty of snow on Sunday

BTW  - I like the "economic conditions" reference...


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The sense of entitlement surrounding this event is staggering!


Since when are people not entitled to something they paid for?

I think you just like to say entitlement to take a stab at people.  If you bought a big mac and in came with only one all beef patty instead of two would you keep your mouth shut or would you be upset about the missing patty?  Are you not entitled to the two all beef patties that were advertised with the burger?


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 21, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> Since when are people not entitled to something they paid for?
> 
> I think you just like to say entitlement to take a stab at people.  If you bought a big mac and in came with only one all beef patty instead of two would you keep your mouth shut or would you be upset about the missing patty?  Are you not entitled to the two all beef patties that were advertised with the burger?



Well, if McDonalds advertised a Big Mac, all beef patty conditions permitting...


----------



## shpride (Apr 21, 2010)

After all this Killington talk it's making me feel like driving up tomorrow.  I guess their closing early promotion worked.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Apr 21, 2010)

Some of you have been crying foul about the way Powdr operates kmart for 3 years now....why do you keep buying season passes?? 

Since Powdr bought kmart there have been several business decision that have upset people who then proclaimed that the Vermont AG will be contacted and redemption will be forthcoming.

One of the first things Powdr did was lay off a bunch of yearround employee. Senators Leahy and Sanders even got involved in this one. AG ignored the issue.

Next up was the lifetime pass brouhaha. Two lawsuits were filed. Judge both times ruled for Powdr. AG ignored the issue. 

Now kmart planned to be open into May, not guaranteed to be open, but ended being one of the last resorts to be open. AG will ignore this as well. 

Here's a sugestion...when Monster, last summer,  threatned to sue a small Vermont beer maker Rock Art Brewery over a frivilous brand issue a Group was formed on Facebook and within a week 15,000 people joined up. Surely, not the only reason but the result, Monster backed off.

Kmart is a much bigger company than Rock Art so I would think with i's thousands of season passholders if your issues have merit a huge number of people would join providing real solid proof to the management of kmart that closing early was a bad business decision. 

Put up Group page on Facebook. You could title it in regards to just the early closure issue or broaden the Group page for some of the other Powdr issues. 

Just complaining, no action = Fail


----------



## SkiDork (Apr 21, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Some of you have been crying foul about the way Powdr operates kmart for 3 years now....why do you keep buying season passes??



Personally I own real estate there and am very involved with KSC and ski programs etc.



ski_resort_observer said:


> Next up was the lifetime pass brouhaha. Two lawsuits were filed. Judge both times ruled for Powdr. AG ignored the issue.



Not true.  Case is still in the courts and no judges have ruled yet



ski_resort_observer said:


> Put up Group page on Facebook. You could title it in regards to just the early closure issue or broaden the Group page for some of the other Powdr issues.



Plenty of FB groups already exist.


----------



## severine (Apr 21, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Here's a sugestion...when Monster, last summer,  threatned to sue a small Vermont beer maker Rock Art Brewery over a frivilous brand issue a Group was formed on Facebook and within a week 15,000 people joined up. Surely, not the only reason but the result, Monster backed off.
> 
> Kmart is a much bigger company than Rock Art so I would think with i's thousands of season passholders if your issues have merit a huge number of people would join providing real solid proof to the management of kmart that closing early was a bad business decision.
> 
> ...


How is a group on FB action? Really? Most of that is just nonsensical crap and doesn't really amount to anything other than whining or bragging. I <3 Facebook, but a group on it does not = action in my book. It's quite passive, rather.

For the record, though, there already is one for this complaint:
KILLINGTON = EPIC FAIL!


----------



## Bubbartzky (Apr 21, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> Not true.  Case is still in the courts and no judges have ruled yet
> 
> 
> 
> .



Not only was the statement not true, I understand Judge Sessions has been critical of the defendents' approach in the case.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

Economics not weather - yes.  Bottomline, they're a private company,  and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis.  The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).

This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating).  Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek).  So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days.  The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.  

Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later,  yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make,  but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.


----------



## mister moose (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Economics not weather - yes. ...This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money



They opened this fall only on weekends for the first 2 weeks.  They could just as easily run the last 2 weeks weekends only rather than close.


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make,  but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.



Proper decision for this month's bottom line, sure.  
Proper decision given that they advertised the hell out of May 2 up until 3 days ago and marketed themselves as THE BEAST all year, I don't think so.  

I think you and POWDR underestimate the value of goodwill lost with this decision.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Economics not weather - yes.  Bottomline, they're a private company,  and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis.  The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).
> 
> This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating).  Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek).  So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days.  The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.
> 
> Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later,  yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make,  but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.



I don't think you'll find many that disagree with the economics behind the decision, especially if given a look at the daily P&L's.   It is a good financial decision to close.  It was also a bad business decision to market the hell out of May 2nd.


----------



## oakapple (Apr 21, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> Proper decision for this month's bottom line, sure.
> Proper decision given that they advertised the hell out of May 2 up until 3 days ago and marketed themselves as THE BEAST all year, I don't think so.


The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.



> I think you and POWDR underestimate the value of goodwill lost with this decision.


I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.


----------



## Vortex (Apr 21, 2010)

edit never mind.

Hope all this talk gets K to open up for the last weekend.


----------



## frankm938 (Apr 21, 2010)

wow, 9 pages about killington closing early.  i bet if greg combined every other mtns closing day threads, it wouldnt add up to 9 pages.
it looks like i got my answer as to why killington gets such a hard time when they do things and other resorts seem to get a pass.  killington markets themselves as the "beast".        and the management doesnt communicate well with its customers.
i never realized how much this mattered to people.
for me, i choose a ski area based on terrain variety, snowfall, moguls, trees and snowmaking.  how they market themselves or the management communication has no impact on my skiing.  if those things (marketing ect...) are important to you, then maybe killington isnt the resort for you.   if you only care about the skiing, then killington is a great way to go.
i feel like i got my money worth from my season pass this year and plan on buying one again next year.  thats not to say there arent some things i would like to change about the place... the length of the season just isnt one of them esp. when other resorts closed before they did


----------



## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Economics not weather - yes.  Bottomline, they're a private company,  and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis.  The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).
> 
> This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating).  Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek).  So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days.  The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.
> 
> Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later,  yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make,  but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.



Dr. Jeff- You aren't addressing the point, or my point anyway. I doubt that most anyone would dispute that closing makes sense from a profit/loss standpoint. Most ski areas close due to economic reasons and not snow conditions, and though many skiers don't like this, it clearly makes sense from a business standpoint. However, in this case Killington sold passes on the premise that they would operate through May 2nd conditions and weather permitting. Yet now they are closing prior to May 2nd due to economic reasons, and not conditions or weather. Can you actually make an argument that this is acceptable? If they wanted flexibility they should have said conditions, weather, and business levels permitting, or not picked a specific date and used something vague like well into the Spring. I doubt there is much of a case legally, as conditions and weather permitting could be interpretted many different ways, but it doesn't make it any less misleading or wrong.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Dr. Jeff- You aren't addressing the point, or my point anyway. I doubt that most anyone would dispute that closing makes sense from a profit/loss standpoint. Most ski areas close due to economic reasons and not snow conditions, and though many skiers don't like this, it clearly makes sense from a business standpoint. However, in this case Killington sold passes on the premise that they would operate through May 2nd conditions and weather permitting. Yet now they are closing prior to May 2nd due to economic reasons, and not conditions or weather. Can you actually make an argument that this is acceptable? If they wanted flexibility they should have said conditions, weather, and business levels permitting, or not picked a specific date and used something vague like well into the Spring. I doubt there is much of a case legally, as conditions and weather permitting could be interpretted many different ways, but it doesn't make it any less misleading or wrong.



I think I made my arguement with my last sentence stating that the descision they made was a RATIONAL one, not an EMOTIONAL one.  And in this case,  economics has to play into the equation, as unlike the gov't, Powdr CAN'T operate in a loss situation for an extended period of time and still be viable


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

mister moose said:


> They opened this fall only on weekends for the first 2 weeks.  They could just as easily run the last 2 weeks weekends only rather than close.



Apples and oranges here.  In the fall, going weekends only has the promise of high profit times (winter season) ahead, so short term operational losses are within reason.  Now in the spring, going one extra week, with the food and beverage costs, extra staffing (although I'd bet that there's not too many hourly/seasonal folks staffing things now), electrical expenses, probably some extra diesel costs to maintain the run-outs, etc - just before you're headed into an extended run of low profit times isn't as acceptable to the balance sheets, since you won't see the daily losses made up anytime soon.

I'm not saying on an emotional level that I agree with the descision, but sometimes on a business level, the correct desicision isn't always the popular (or easy) one to make


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2010)

oakapple said:


> The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.
> 
> 
> I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.



Bingo!  I think that it's a safe bet that if the consumer who didn't have a K full season pass this year, but bought the spring pass since their "regular" mountain was closing early hasn't cought their next years pass yet, that this descsion won't weigh too much on them about if they'll buy a full K pass next year or go back to their regular mountain, since after all their regular mountain more than likely opened later and closed earlier than K did.

I know that we'll never see the data,  but I'd bet that even if K stayed open 1 more week, that the conversion rate from spring pass holder to 2010-2011 K full season pass holder wouldn't be that great, and this action likely won't decrease those numbers very much (if at all)


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 21, 2010)

oakapple said:


> The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.
> 
> 
> I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.



The thing is we don't know what conditions will be on the 1st weekend in May.  They are basing the decision on a long-range weather forecast.  If you follow weather at all you know how unreliable these are.  We do know there's a substantial base left on SS that should, by by most accounts, survive until May 2.

I believe that they simply have much lower skier visits than expected this spring and decided to pull the plug based on that.  I also wonder how many people actually bought their spring pass, wouldn't surprise me if it was very very low.  That may have factored in too.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Economics not weather - yes.  Bottomline, they're a private company,  and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis.  The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).
> 
> This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating).  Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek).  So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days.  The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.
> 
> Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later,  yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make,  but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.



The loss of the concession business is kind of a joke. The food is marginal at best and I'd speculate that not many "regulars" eat their "product".  

Killington most likely furloughed many of their staff which is helped drive this decision. Having SSQ closed Friday pm and Saturday am is a clear indication that they just do not have staff with experience capable of running the mountain.

Regarding the early season chest thumping from K marketing- this is the same exact thing, perhaps worse. Pounding their chests all season with their "May 2" business = FAIL.


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## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I think I made my arguement with my last sentence stating that the descision they made was a RATIONAL one, not an EMOTIONAL one.  And in this case,  economics has to play into the equation, as unlike the gov't, Powdr CAN'T operate in a loss situation for an extended period of time and still be viable



The rational decision would have been to stay open until May 2nd conditions and weather permitting, as people bought Spring passes based on that premise. A large resort operator (or anyone with any knowledge of the ski industry) should have the foresight to know that staying open until May 2nd could come at a loss, and should have carefully considered that prior to making a committment to their customers. I guess I have made my argument too, so we will have to repectfully disagree.


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## big_vert (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -   

"Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".

Get over it already- get a life! K-Mart's closing this weekend, due to, as they said before weather NOT PERMITTING. Is there business in this decision - probably - but just get over yourselves and your petty little problem, and (try to) get on with your lives and accept that K-Mart will be closed.

A week from now (or next season) will anyone remember or care when they closed - F no, so while your lives are apparently destroyed about having a WOD open for one more week, just find a way to try to survive - OK?.

If you want real skiing and a guarantee of real skiing and snow, go to Snowbird or Whistler, otherwise find something a little less petty to have your little snit about. 

Gawd, what losers.


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## bobbutts (Apr 21, 2010)

big_vert said:


> Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -
> 
> "Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".
> 
> ...



Congrats on being rich and having tons of vacation time.  

Guess it gives you the right to be an asshole.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 21, 2010)

Or go to Sugarloaf!


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## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

big_vert said:


> Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -
> 
> "Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".
> 
> ...



WOW, sounds like you need to get a life! Coming onto a Northeast skiing forum to insult Northeast skiing, and critisizing people for having a discussion in a discussion forum. You call us losers, perhaps you should look in the mirror.


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## dmc (Apr 21, 2010)

I foresee a looooooooooooong summer on this site... 

Whaddya expect from someone who skied the Canyons -5 times..   How do you even ski an area negative times..?


----------



## big_vert (Apr 21, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> Congrats on being rich and having tons of vacation time.
> 
> Guess it gives you the right to be an asshole.



And you would be a LOSER. Simple really.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

All right folks.....let's get back to the topic.


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## big_vert (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> WOW, sounds like you need to get a life! Coming onto a Northeast skiing forum to insult Northeast skiing, and critisizing people for having a discussion in a discussion forum. You call us losers, perhaps you should look in the mirror.



I had 5 days of least coast skiing this year (and 40+ years before that) so that qualifies that I can say something.

I had a bad week in UT, and said, gawd, this is bad enough to be least coast skiing - then I went to K-mart in late March. Nope, it wasn't bad enough to be least coast - how soon I forget.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

Fellas.....


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## SkiDork (Apr 21, 2010)

this is what we did a few years ago after they closed...  fun times...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466903909183679046&hl=en#


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## gmcunni (Apr 21, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> All right folks.....let's get back to the topic.



i'm really pissed i won't get to ski on May 1!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> i'm really pissed i won't get to ski on May 1!


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 21, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Or go to Sugarloaf!



Jay Peak just announced they'll re-open for May 1 and 2.


----------



## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> I foresee a looooooooooooong summer on this site...


+1  In some ways, we really haven't recovered from last summer.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> I foresee a looooooooooooong summer on this site...



Agreed! 

Can't say I'm surprised that this thread is getting out of hand though.

I don't understand why some people have to resort to name calling to get their point across.  Whatever the reason; if we can't have a discussion without resorting to personal attacks then I foresee a thread lock.  I'm not even asking for a civilized discussion, I do realize this is K-Mart after all...


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 21, 2010)

big_vert said:


> And you would be a LOSER. Simple really.


Aren't you a little bit old to be trolling forums?
Just try to enjoy your mid-life crisis without lashing out for no reason.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Jay Peak just announced they'll re-open for May 1 and 2.



Smart move!


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised that this thread is getting out of hand though.
> 
> I don't understand why some people have to resort to name calling to get their point across.  Whatever the reason; if we can't have a discussion without resorting to personal attacks then I foresee a thread lock.  I'm not even asking for a civilized discussion, I do realize this is K-Mart after all...



huh?


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## dmc (Apr 21, 2010)

We just went through the same thing about Hunter on a couple other sites...

I can see all sides...  But I say F the West(Utah,BC)  - it's lame...    I ride Asia!!!


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## campgottagopee (Apr 21, 2010)

WOW----this thread makes me REAL happy that I ski at Greek where nobody gives a crap when you open and when you close----geez


----------



## dmc (Apr 21, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> WOW----this thread makes me REAL happy that I ski at Greek where nobody gives a crap when you open and when you close----geez



How much is a Greek season pass compared to Kmart..?


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 21, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> WOW----this thread makes me REAL happy that I ski at Greek where nobody gives a crap when you open and when you close----geez



Were you at the party Sunday?

Seems like a lot of GP'ers like to hit up K on the shoulders of the season for sure.


----------



## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised that this thread is getting out of hand though.
> 
> I don't understand why some people have to resort to name calling to get their point across.  Whatever the reason; if we can't have a discussion without resorting to personal attacks then I foresee a thread lock.  I'm not even asking for a civilized discussion, I do realize this is K-Mart after all...



Lets not get carried away here. Someone came into the discussion trolling and was called out for it. No big deal.


----------



## dmc (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Lets not get carried away here. Someone came into the discussion trolling and was called out for it. No big deal.



Self moderation....


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## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Lets not get carried away here. Someone came into the discussion trolling and was called out for it. No big deal.



Don't get all bent out of shape, it's just a friendly reminder.  

How much more needs to be said on the subject anyway, that hasn't already been said?

Actually, I'm surprised that no one suggested calling Killington to get their side of the story... :razz:


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## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Actually, I'm surprised that no one suggested calling Killington to get their side of the story... :razz:


I was just thinking that it's been a really long time since SpinmasterK has posted here.


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## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Don't get all bent out of shape, it's just a friendly reminder.
> 
> How much more needs to be said on the subject anyway, that hasn't already been said?
> 
> Actually, I'm surprised that no one suggested calling Killington to get their side of the story... :razz:



Does my post really sound like I am bent out of shape? Simply pointing out that the situation resolved of it's own volition, and there is no need to perpetuate it. Perhaps I am just grumpy because I am on crutches and recovering from achilles tendon repair surgery instead of looking forward to the trip I had planned to the Loaf this weekend.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Does my post really sound like I am bent out of shape? Simply pointing out that the situation resolved of it's own volition, and there is no need to perpetuate it. Perhaps I am just grumpy because I am on crutches and recovering from achilles tendon repair surgery instead of looking forward to the trip I had planned to the Loaf this weekend.



It's hard to say from, just reading words, just how bent out of shape you were.  I felt a reminder was in order, so I gave it.  Yes, as a whole people have been behaving fairly well in this thread, and I'm trying to keep it that way.


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## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I was just thinking that it's been a really long time since SpinmasterK has posted here.



Give him a call.  Let's hear his side of the story.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I know that we'll never see the data,  but I'd bet that even if K stayed open 1 more week, that the conversion rate from spring pass holder to 2010-2011 K full season pass holder wouldn't be that great, and this action likely won't decrease those numbers very much (if at all)



Given the minimal cost to spin one lift for a week, you don't have to lose many season pass sales to turn it into an incredibly stupid business decision.

Here are the traffic counter numbers for the Killington Access Road for January & February.   If I ran a business and my owners saw that, I wouldn't be employed very long.   As a friend of mine points out, "Nobody ever intentionally goes out to lose market share".







You can pull the sales, lodging, meals, and alcohol sales data out of the Vermont Dept of Taxes site.   It is consistent with the traffic counter data.


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## Geoff (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Give him a call.  Let's hear his side of the story.



Killington marketing is in "Duck & Cover" mode right now.   Not exactly the brightest thing to do when you are trying to sell 2011 season passes.


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## Riverskier (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> It's hard to say from, just reading words, just how bent out of shape you were.  I felt a reminder was in order, so I gave it.  Yes, as a whole people have been behaving fairly well in this thread, and I'm trying to keep it that way.



Not at all actually, simply suggesting others do the same.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Give him a call.  Let's hear his side of the story.


I really don't care either way.  I voted with my wallet this season and was no worse off because of it.


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## bvibert (Apr 21, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Not at all actually, simply suggesting others do the same.



Cool. :beer:


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 21, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> Not only was the statement not true, I understand Judge Sessions has been critical of the defendents' approach in the case.



The class action suit is definately still in play, bet the lawyers are making a killing. 

There were two previous lawsuits filed by individuals which Powdr won. I remember WCAX interviewing the couple who filed the lawsuit after the judge made its ruling.

Per my post, lawsuits were filed previous to the current class action suit, Powdr came out on top, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I will find some documentation.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Give him a call.  Let's hear his side of the story.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 21, 2010)

Who cares about closing early when you have next season to look forward to ?

_Thanks to the most extensive snowmaking system in the world, the largest modern snow grooming fleet in the east, Killington will offer an extended season from early November 2010 through early May 2011, weather and snow conditions permitting._

I'm betting that there will be a thread started no later than November 10th bitching about Killington not opening the first day the temps are below freezing


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 21, 2010)

While searching for info on the lawsuits, not the big class action lawsuit, I have read countless articles in the Rutland Herald and came across this tidbit of info regarding skier/rider visits for 07/08. From 1.2m a few years ago to 640,000, that's a bunch. Until I see a definition of "profit", could be EBITDA which is gross profit, I'm personally taking that part of the sentence with alot of grains of salt. Course, this was 2 seasons ago. Has the visits gone up the past two seasons(including the one almost coming to a close) remained the same or gone down further?

Staff Writer
Date: July 13, 2008 
Publication: Rutland Herald (VT) 

KILLINGTON - If the end justifies the means, then count Killington/Pico's first season under new ownership a success.

Under Powdr Corp. the resort made a tidy profit with combined skier visits at both ski areas topping 640,000.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> How much is a Greek season pass compared to Kmart..?



Don't know how much K is,  but the Peak is 299 bucks!!!!


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 21, 2010)

I just got notice about the Facebook page Killington=EPIC FAIL, looks like it was put up yesterday afternoon. 42 members so far, no photos, discussion topics or events listed yet but it's a start. I was also sent a link to shortski's vid.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 21, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> Were you at the party Sunday?
> 
> Seems like a lot of GP'ers like to hit up K on the shoulders of the season for sure.



Nope, I know of a few guys who head there---if I go north it's to WF or Gore


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## ozzy (Apr 21, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I just got notice about the Facebook page Killington=EPIC FAIL, looks like it was put up yesterday afternoon. 42 members so far, no photos, discussion topics or events listed yet but it's a start. I was also sent a link to shortski's vid.



Actually, I just uploaded 9 photos from today's adventures. I apologize in advance for the shitty blackberry photos.
Powbmps was sem getting his filth on as well


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## RootDKJ (Apr 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> I'm betting that there will be a thread started no later than November 10th bitching about Killington not opening the first day the temps are below freezing


+1


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## Black Phantom (Apr 21, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Nope, I know of a few guys who head there---if I go north it's to WF or Gore




Nope? Half the race program was up a couple of weeks ago. I meet GP'ers up there every weekend. Sure they go other places as well.   

Pirko loves K.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 21, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> Nope? Half the race program was up a couple of weeks ago. I meet GP'ers up there every weekend. Sure they go other places as well.
> 
> Pirko loves K.



I don't go, but again, mucho peeps do go there. I don't have anything against K, in fact, used to spend a fair amount of time there (mid- late 80's), but now just not my scene for me and the crew I ski with is all. Like the vibe/vert better at WF, that, and the beer at PJ's friggin ROCKS!!!!:beer:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

Here's a thought:  use honey instead of vinegar, or in this case nitric acid.


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## bigbob (Apr 21, 2010)

The problem that I have is that over the years Killington was relied upon as the area that would open first and close last. Year after year they strived to have the longest season in the east. A lot of people here who are complaining are coming to the realization this will be gone for ever, unless you are within driving distance of Sugarloaf/ Sunday River. I can drive there in 3 hours. Tough for a day trip, but doable. People from the NY metro area are losing this late season option, some of which who have real estate in central Vermont, so they are losing some of the value of their investment. Powdr Corp is a privately held co, and can do as they please. I would think that if they had said May 2 nd is not looking good right now, we plan on closing midweek to preserve the snow base and will reevaluate by Thursday, I would think the reaction from their customers would of been more positive than the flaming they are receiving.
 This has turned into yet another bad PR move on their part and as Geoff has stated, they will lose more money than what was saved by their recent announcement. 
 I hope John Cummings is reading all this "free customer feedback" and learning from these decisions.
  If this involved a Boyne resort I am sure SK would of chimed in by now and set things straight...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 21, 2010)

bigbob said:


> The problem that I have is that over the years Killington was relied upon as the area that would open first and close last. Year after year they strived to have the longest season in the east. A lot of people here who are complaining are coming to the realization this will be gone for ever, unless you are within driving distance of Sugarloaf/ Sunday River. I can drive there in 3 hours. Tough for a day trip, but doable. People from the NY metro area are losing this late season option, some of which who have real estate in central Vermont, so they are losing some of the value of their investment. Powdr Corp is a privately held co, and can do as they please. I would think that if they had said May 2 nd is not looking good right now, we plan on closing midweek to preserve the snow base and will reevaluate by Thursday, I would think the reaction from their customers would of been more positive than the flaming they are receiving.
> This has turned into yet another bad PR move on their part and as Geoff has stated, they will lose more money than what was saved by their recent announcement.
> I hope John Cummings is reading all this "free customer feedback" and learning from these decisions.
> If this involved a Boyne resort I am sure SK would of chimed in by now and set things straight...



'change' is always tough.  I agree completely with pretty much everything you're saying and understand why many are upset.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2010)

As I said in the other K-Mart post, I understand the anger, but venom only galvanizes the management in its decisionmaking and convinces them that some customers are just never going to be happy regardless, so why make an effort.  Instead, the tact I would use would be, "look, from its inception until when ASC took over, Killington made a profit evey year except for its first.  This was because Pres Smith had the "first to open, last to close" model and it worked" rather than yelling insults, posting Chris Nyberg's daughter's Email address for folks to use to harrass her as a way to get to her Dad, and showing a sense of entitlement.  There's a reason why the management turns a deaf ear to some folks.  I'm not defending what they have done, but I can see that they are probably definitely motivated not to open now that people are yelling at them and have resorted to attacks.  If you were a business owner and your daughter got nastygrams from people she hadn't met, would you be rolling out the red carpet for those folks?


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## marcski (Apr 21, 2010)

bigbob said:


> The problem that I have is that over the years Killington was relied upon as the area that would open first and close last. Year after year they strived to have the longest season in the east. A lot of people here who are complaining are coming to the realization this will be gone for ever, unless you are within driving distance of Sugarloaf/ Sunday River. I can drive there in 3 hours. Tough for a day trip, but doable. People from the NY metro area are losing this late season option, some of which who have real estate in central Vermont, so they are losing some of the value of their investment. Powdr Corp is a privately held co, and can do as they please. I would think that if they had said May 2 nd is not looking good right now, we plan on closing midweek to preserve the snow base and will reevaluate by Thursday, I would think the reaction from their customers would of been more positive than the flaming they are receiving.
> This has turned into yet another bad PR move on their part and as Geoff has stated, they will lose more money than what was saved by their recent announcement.
> I hope John Cummings is reading all this "free customer feedback" and learning from these decisions.
> If this involved a Boyne resort I am sure SK would of chimed in by now and set things straight...



You really think that Killington closing 1 or 2 weekends earlier in May is going to lower real estate values in central Vt.?   Come on now......


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## Geoff (Apr 21, 2010)

marcski said:


> You really think that Killington closing 1 or 2 weekends earlier in May is going to lower real estate values in central Vt.?   Come on now......



No, it's a large mix of total mismanagement by the new owners and management.   When they showed up, they peeled 2 months off the traditional 7 month Killington season.   This year, they said they were going to do a 6 month season and didn't even achieve that.   They're running so lean on staff that the place falls over when it is stressed.   They're really slow to get lifts going when they ice.   Holiday weekends are a total debacle for the walk-up day ticket people who are looking for equipment, lessons, and edible food.  The list is lengthy.   

Have they contributed to the decline of real estate values at Killington?   Absolutely.   Here are the traffic counter numbers on the Access Road for January and February.   Real estate values in town are tied to rental income.   Midweek business has collapsed and you can't come close to covering costs from weekend-only rentals at peak season.   ...and these tools think they're going to successfully develop and sell real estate with a crashed real estate market where selling prices are less than replacement cost.    Not friggin' likely.


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## riverc0il (Apr 22, 2010)

With the real estate collapse happening pretty close to the time of the sale of Killington, how much can real estate values be tied into management of the ski area? How about the A41 Pass when discussing traffic on the access road? A lot of that traffic was driven by extremely low cost multiple mountain season passes in which skiing a lot led to a really low cost per day season total. Not operating in October or May would lessen Access Road traffic and business profitability during those months, but how much of a percent of the big number are we really talking about? The Real Estate market was over built and over valued everywhere so I can't believe the management change led to that much of a drop compared to the Real Estate collapse. And if a few businesses need to close due to less demand, well, that is just the way the marketplace works. Either change and innovate, do something better than your competitors, offer a different or better product, or go out of business when the well dries up.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 22, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> posting Chris Nyberg's daughter's Email address for folks to use to harrass her as a way to get to her Dad,



Soooooooooo not cool----whomever did that over friggin ski area closing should seek help, and I mean fast. WOW :-o


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## ozzy (Apr 22, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> would you be rolling out the red carpet for those folks?



Rolling out the red carpet? How about doing what they said you were going to do as they've been promoting that for over a year..


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## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Soooooooooo not cool----whomever did that over friggin ski area closing should seek help, and I mean fast. WOW :-o



you mean your family doesn't get threatening emails when you give someone a raw deal on a car?  :lol:


yeah, that's pretty messed


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## campgottagopee (Apr 22, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> you mean your family doesn't get threatening emails when you give someone a raw deal on a car?  :lol:
> 
> 
> yeah, that's pretty messed



Nope, just me:lol:

It's crap like that that really bother me. I know it shouldn't but what the hell are some people thinking??? I blame rap music ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2010)

ozzy said:


> Rolling out the red carpet? How about doing what they said you were going to do as they've been promoting that for over a year..



My point is that those who go overboard are ruining it for the others.


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## skiadikt (Apr 22, 2010)

adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:

for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ... 

during asc's 11 seasons commencing w/ that historic 1996-97 season, they averaged 196 ski days and were still open as late as may 15 as recently as the 2004-05 season. we all know the asc story but the long season was not really a contributing factor in their financial failure. more likely a victim.

during powdr's 3 yrs, the average is 160 days w/ this season's 153 ski days the lowest since 1962-63 when they had 148 days but were still open until may 5 during an era when i'd assume there was much less snowmaking

regarding entitlements etc, because of it's history killington is held to a higher expectation than other ski areas. for years their longer season meant not just a week or two longer than the competition but blowing them away. it was one of the things that set them apart. and those expectations were raised this season by the beast image makeover, marketting & blogging an early may close and a perceived increased snowmaking on supe this year. many folks had drank the kool-aid and were even talking late may or june so when the plug's pulled been pulled a week earlier than announced with superstar looking skiable, it should be no surprise that a lot of people are pissed.

the cruelest joke may be the changing forecast. at least on the accuweather 10 day, it's showing only a chance of showers next wednesday with cooler temps for the week and mostly sunny with temps in the low 50's for what have been the closing weekend.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2010)

when you put it in that context, it really shows how significant the season has been shortened since P Smith.  61 days is no small change.


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## powbmps (Apr 22, 2010)

Great post. 



skiadikt said:


> adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:
> 
> for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ...
> 
> ...


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## Greg (Apr 22, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:
> 
> for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ...
> 
> ...



I think the most obvious contributing factor in all this is simply the cost of energy really started to spike in the early to mid-2000's. Gas/diesel fuels especially had a major jump after remaining consistent in the mid to late 90's:






Maybe, someone here knows exactly how much Killlington's snow making relies/relied on diesel fuel for air? Anyway, making  a lot of snow in the fall only to watch it melt is not an option anymore. Neither is stockpiling all winter if spring skier visits don't provide a good return. I know all us internet expert talk about marketing value, blah, blah, blah, but I'm pretty sure the bean counters at Killington have considered all this.

Hopefully new low energy snow making technology will make for more cost effective snow making, but I'm afraid that the longer the average season is 160 days, the least likely they will be to try and extend it.

Nevertheless, I agree that the best approach would be for Killington to shut down midweek after the 25th and reopen for a final weekend in May. That seems like a fair compromise.


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## Geoff (Apr 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Maybe, someone here knows exactly how much Killlington's snow making relies/relied on diesel fuel for air?



Your logic is broken.

Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June.   You can't use a blip of extremely low energy cost years to make your case.   You have to look at the data from 1975 onwards.

The way Killington has been run under POWDR has chased away an awful lot of customers.   They pretty much completed Les Otten's plan of using Sunday River to capture the metro-Boston market.   The data is there on the internet with a state traffic counter on the Access Road and state-published Sales, Meals, Lodging, and Alcohol tax revenue for the town.   Since skiing is pretty much a zero sum game in New England, those people ended up elsewhere.   From where I sit, POWDR and Killington are incompetent at running the business.   It has cause a significant regional economic hardship since the ski resort is the dominant economic driver in Rutland County.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2010)

The cost of energy and labor certainly have made a difference.


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## Geoff (Apr 22, 2010)

I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week.   The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even.    If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.


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## Riverskier (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week.   The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even.    If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.



Good point. While the exact value derived from being able to market a long season, and from creating goodwill with your customers may hard to ascertain, it seems almost incomprehensible that the potential loss from operating an extra week could exceed the future losses associated with the early closing. Sure, 95% of their customers hung up the boards a month ago and don't know or care when they close, but it doesn't take many lost season pass sales or family vacations to make this decision a losing proposition.


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## SkiDork (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The cost to spin one lift for a week is small



Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL.  He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.

Does that sound at all reasonable?


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## campgottagopee (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week.   The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even.    If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.



If by 10 people not buying season passes = a net loss then something is waaaaaay wrong. I have no facts to back up my statement, but logically thinking a few thousand bucks shouldn't make or break a place like K. I'm sure I'm wrong tho.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.
> 
> Does that sound at all reasonable?



WTF?  :blink:


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## Riverskier (Apr 22, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL.  He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.
> 
> Does that sound at all reasonable?



No way! I am far from an expert on this and couldn't even give a reasonable estimate, but I can confidently say if you dropped a zero you would be closer.


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## Greg (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June.



Really? That's surprising.


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## marcski (Apr 22, 2010)

After looking at powbumps' thread and his pics from yesterday at K, I might have to agree that K could have and perhaps should have tried to make a go for 5/2 even if superstar was the only trail open. Those pics look great.


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 22, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Does my post really sound like I am bent out of shape? Simply pointing out that the situation resolved of it's own volition, and there is no need to perpetuate it. Perhaps I am just grumpy because I am on crutches and recovering from achilles tendon repair surgery instead of looking forward to the trip I had planned to the Loaf this weekend.



Been there...I feel your pain.  Totally ruptured mine playing basketball on a nice June afternoon 13 years ago.  Followed doctor's instructions to the letter, did my rehab religiously, and was skiing by Christmas.


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 22, 2010)

> Originally Posted by Geoff
> Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June.






Greg said:


> Really? That's surprising.



Curious how many guns have been replaced by e-guns?  I have seen few e-guns in the pics that have been posted this past winter. While they do reduce energy costs they require more maintenance to keep them going. Talk to any of your snowmaking friends, snowmakers will tell you that due to low compression they are constantly jamming up. Keeping SS open back in the day depended more on heavy equipment moving the snow onto SS and that cost needs to be included in your comparison.

The overall cost of snowmaking is high, inflation adgusted nonwithstanding but that's only one piece of the cost of trail maintenence. Comparing kmart today to the late 1980s boom years might make an interesting discussion but has no merit when your managing the business of operating a ski resort in todays environment for a variety of reasons. Looking forward, making tough decisions that will effect next year, 5 years down the road,  that's what they should be doing. 

Back in the boom years of the late 80's the VSSA reported state skier visits over 5m, in the last 5 years it's been in the range, 3.8-4.3m despite VSAA's  emphasize on getting back to 5m. They have predicted 4m for this past season but I'm going with 3.9 as the only nice warm sunny spring like weekend we had this season was Easter weekend, at least up here in northern Vermont. 

Things have changed bigtime since the late 80's. Comparing this past season to back then as a base of your 
argument is a hard one to make.

Granted, come November and kmarts SP sales are down and can be tied to the closing a week early than planned issue, than yours and others predictions will be proven right. 

Personally, I don't think it will mean much partly cause a majority of the kmart regulars who are upset will still buy a SP and people's attention span is very short even for contentious issues like this one. If come November SP sales are up then this proves the opposite, at least in my view.


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## drjeff (Apr 22, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL.  He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.
> 
> Does that sound at all reasonable?





thetrailboss said:


> WTF?  :blink:



Probably closer than one might think.  I know I was quite suprised to read this post, on the Mount Snow passholder site from their GM, Kelly Pawlak, about Mount Snow's late season plans for this year, and the last couple of years, and what it takes for profitability. This was posted on March 29th: (I did the highlighting with respect to profitability)

"In 05 we closed on April 10. In 2006 we closed on April 9. In 2007 we closed on April 15 (closed the midweek prior.) 08 was a long season and we closed on April 27 with a few midweek days closed. 2008 was the year that our competitors (including Killington) closed early so we took advantage of it and had decent numbers until we closed. Last year we closed on April 19 with the midweek prior closed. You should associate our fan gun installation and new owners with an emphasis on early openings. And once we hit April (and often in March) we run in the red. So running "Carinthia only" saves $$ but we would need thousands in attendance to turn a profit. Luckily, we look at the profitability of the entire season not each individual week."


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## Riverskier (Apr 22, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> Been there...I feel your pain.  Totally ruptured mine playing basketball on a nice June afternoon 13 years ago.  Followed doctor's instructions to the letter, did my rehab religiously, and was skiing by Christmas.



This is encouraging, thank you for posting that! My Dr. said 6 months to complete recovery (running, skiing, etc.), but good to know that is really an accurate timeline. I have had ACL surgery in the past, so I am fmailiar with rehab and take it very seriously.


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## Geoff (Apr 22, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> If come November SP sales are up then this proves the opposite, at least in my view.



The Vermont Department of Taxes publishes retail sales numbers broken out by town and by month, quarter, and year.   The decline at Killington since the Park City boys showed up has been constant.   Q1 numbers won't be out until June but they have been correlating quite well with traffic counter numbers on the Access Road which are available on the state DOT site.   I'm expecting Q1 to be down yet another 5% year-over-year based on what the traffic counter looks like.

Killington doesn't release skier visit or season pass numbers so there's really no way to get the numbers without getting somebody fired.   The pass office manager is a friend of mine but I'm not going to put her in a position to lose her job by asking the question.


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## oakapple (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even.


Is that a fact or a guess? One thing I know is that the cost of being open is _far_ more than just the cost of spinning a lift. A lot of ancillary services, and the staff to operate them, need to be in place: ski patrol, mountain ops, security, cleaning people, bars, restaurants, rental and ticket sales, hospitality, etc. I suspect the reason they are closing is because the economics are _not anywhere close_ to breaking even.


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## moguler6 (Apr 22, 2010)

I love all of the comments now on the Killington Insider page.  Hahahahaha


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The Vermont Department of Taxes publishes retail sales numbers broken out by town and by month, quarter, and year.   The decline at Killington since the Park City boys showed up has been constant.   Q1 numbers won't be out until June but they have been correlating quite well with traffic counter numbers on the Access Road which are available on the state DOT site.   I'm expecting Q1 to be down yet another 5% year-over-year based on what the traffic counter looks like.
> 
> Killington doesn't release skier visit or season pass numbers so there's really no way to get the numbers without getting somebody fired.   The pass office manager is a friend of mine but I'm not going to put her in a position to lose her job by asking the question.



Don't need the specific numbers just whether sales went up or down will do it. In the past 3 years Powdr has publically announced in a Rutland Herald, usually from Tom,  not the numbers but that SP sales increased over the previous year. He also has been quoted in TV reports and articles about the Vermont ski business getting ready for the new season in November regarding SP sales at kmart. Reading it in the paper or watching it on WCAX TV news about how SP sales went shouldn't jeopardize anyones job.


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## Geoff (Apr 22, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Is that a fact or a guess? One thing I know is that the cost of being open is _far_ more than just the cost of spinning a lift. A lot of ancillary services, and the staff to operate them, need to be in place: ski patrol, mountain ops, security, cleaning people, bars, restaurants, rental and ticket sales, hospitality, etc. I suspect the reason they are closing is because the economics are _not anywhere close_ to breaking even.



I just go by what people who used to be involved with Killington in a position to know like Skip King and Steve Wright tell me.   Jay Peak is operating.   They have the same costs as Killington and sell a heck of a lot less day tickets in May.


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## Geoff (Apr 22, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Don't need the specific numbers just whether sales went up or down will do it. In the past 3 years Powdr has publically announced in a Rutland Herald, usually from Tom,  not the numbers but that SP sales increased over the previous year. He also has been quoted in TV reports and articles about the Vermont ski business getting ready for the new season in November regarding SP sales at kmart. Reading it in the paper or watching it on WCAX TV news about how SP sales went shouldn't jeopardize anyones job.



If a Killington employee told me how many unrestricted, blackout, and college passes they sold, they could get fired for it.

Tom Horrocks has zero cred.   They're not a public company so they can say whatever they want about skier visits and pass sales.   If you look at *real* data from the state, they can't possibly be up unless they are cheating the state out of sales tax revenue.


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 22, 2010)

I would think the year they took over and increased the price of a SP from the below market A41 product they would be hard pressed to have an increase in the number of SP's sold but obviously the revenue per pass went way up.

Found this interesting thread about the same topic
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=16926&highlight=season+pass+sales+powdr


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> If a Killington employee told me how many unrestricted, blackout, and college passes they sold, they could get fired for it.
> 
> Tom Horrocks has zero cred.   They're not a public company so they can say whatever they want about skier visits and pass sales.   If you look at *real* data from the state, they can't possibly be up unless they are cheating the state out of sales tax revenue.



Total skier visits could be up but sales tax revenue down in Killington.  Easy explanation is that people are still skiing but buying discounted ticket packages, spending less money, staying in Rutland or other, lower priced places, or spending one less night here to save on lodging.  As for Tom's cred...use your own judgment.


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## dmc (Apr 22, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> staying in Rutland.



With AndyZ ?    


Sup Bubba?


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 22, 2010)

dmc said:


> With AndyZ ?
> 
> 
> Sup Bubba?



Nada.  Working, posting, done skiing for the season...You?


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## Bubbartzky (Apr 22, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> This is encouraging, thank you for posting that! My Dr. said 6 months to complete recovery (running, skiing, etc.), but good to know that is really an accurate timeline. I have had ACL surgery in the past, so I am fmailiar with rehab and take it very seriously.



You out of the cast and in a boot or does your doc have you spending the whole 6 - 8 weeks in a cast?


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## Riverskier (Apr 23, 2010)

Bubbartzky said:


> You out of the cast and in a boot or does your doc have you spending the whole 6 - 8 weeks in a cast?



Had surgery April 12th and I am actually in a splint right now. First follow up on April 30th and the Dr. said I will go into either a boot or a cast and will start being able to put some weight on it. 6-8 weeks is the timeline he gave me for full weight bearing and a regular shoe. Hoping for the 6!


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## Rambo (Apr 23, 2010)

I think that probably someone out in Utah at POWDR Corps headquarters made the decision to close Killington on April 25th and Nyberg and staff have no choice but to defend the higher ups decision.


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## skiadikt (Apr 23, 2010)

mammoth mountain recently announced they would be staying open until july 4th

Mammoth Chairman Rusty Gregory said, "With as much snow as we have, our customers would riot if we closed down as early as the other ski resorts."


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## drjeff (Apr 23, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> mammoth mountain recently announced they would be staying open until july 4th
> 
> Mammoth Chairman Rusty Gregory said, "With as much snow as we have, our customers would riot if we closed down as early as the other ski resorts."



Check out this Mammoth TR over on Firsttracksonline from this past weekend.  In particular, look at the photo of patrons walking off the snow onto the *3RD FLOOR DECK* about mid way through the post to see why July 4th is likely happening there

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8899


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## Rambo (Apr 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Check out this Mammoth TR over on Firsttracksonline from this past weekend.  In particular, look at the photo of patrons walking off the snow onto the *3RD FLOOR DECK* about mid way through the post to see why July 4th is likely happening there
> 
> http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=54182



If someone were to ski at Mammouth Mountain, late spring, how wide a ski would they need? Would a Fischer Watea 94 or a Line Prophet 100 be wide enough to provide good flotation in Spring conditions or would something wider be required?


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## drjeff (Apr 23, 2010)

Rambo said:


> If someone were to ski at Mammouth Mountain, late spring, how wide a ski would they need? Would a Fischer Watea 94 or a Line Prophet 100 be wide enough to provide good flotation in Spring conditions or would something wider be required?



Folks have been skiing Mammoth pretty successfully in spring mashed potatoes for decades.  It's not the ski, its the skier


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## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Folks have been skiing Mammoth pretty successfully in spring mashed potatoes for decades.  It's not the ski, its the skier



I ski that shti on barrel staves...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Check out this Mammoth TR over on Firsttracksonline from this past weekend.  In particular, look at the photo of patrons walking off the snow onto the *3RD FLOOR DECK* about mid way through the post to see why July 4th is likely happening there
> 
> http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=54182



check out the pics of Superstar from powbumps 4/21 TR.  By the same logic, shouldn't K stay open a bit longer.


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## drjeff (Apr 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> check out the pics of Superstar from powbumps 4/21 TR.  By the same logic, shouldn't K stay open a bit longer.



Check out the number of people on that deck at Mammoth vs. the number of people on SS in powbumps TR


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## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Check out the number of people on that deck at Mammoth vs. the number of people on SS in powbumps TR



Spring skiing at Killington has always been a weekend thing.   You don't get many people on a Wednesday who don't have green license plates on their cars.   Friday through Monday, it's always much busier if it's sunny.


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## bobbutts (Apr 25, 2010)

I was up there yesterday (great bumps!) and the headwall and last pitch on SS are getting a little thin and rocky.  Next weekend would have been possible, but conditions would probably have been pretty marginal.  I can see why they're calling it a season.  This April was way warmer and rainier than average.  It caused their base to dwindle faster than they expected.


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## riverc0il (Apr 25, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> I was up there yesterday (great bumps!) and the headwall and last pitch on SS are getting a little thin and rocky.  Next weekend would have been possible, but conditions would probably have been pretty marginal.  I can see why they're calling it a season.  This April was way warmer and rainier than average.  It caused their base to dwindle faster than they expected.


I do not agree with the observation that any part of Superstar was thin or rocky. Great coverage on Superstar from top to bottom. The bumps on Superstar were not that great, though. But I can not see why they are calling it a season as they have plenty of snow on the trail and plenty more snow to move around. I should have pictures up by later today. I thought that they had very impressive coverage still and I was SHOCKED at how much coverage they have considering they are closing a full weekend early.


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## bobbutts (Apr 25, 2010)

all I'm saying is I can see why they are doing it, they never should have said May 2 this year if they didn't plan on pushing it, and they could easily run and have better conditions vs. closing weekends in the past.
But I don't think they expected the snow to be going so fast now given the coverage they had on Apr 1, and there will very likely be a big gaping bare spot up top by next weekend.

Yeah, yesterday SS had mostly a combo of dug out and spaced out bumps but Ovation was creamy and nice and Skyelark got some nice lines going.  Still by my standards a great bump day.








Here's a pic from closing weekend somewhere between 95-97, headwall totally bare.  So yeah, if this is the standard, they are closing early this year.


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## riverc0il (Apr 25, 2010)

There was not a bare spot on Superstar until the final pitch, even the "headwall" was wall to wall. And there was 5+ feet of snow at the top. The standard is not having to walk down the headwall as in 95-97. The standard is not having to take your skis off at all. You don't have to have visions of the future to know that they could make next weekend with a good quality product if they wanted to. I am just saying that is not a valid reason and the product is actually VERY good right now. It would take above freezing nights and five days straight of rain to wash it out.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 25, 2010)

Sugarloaf:



> Good news folks - the skiing is so good up above Peavey that we're going to keep both Spillway and the SuperQuad running straight through the week! Come up and enjoy the final week at the King of Spring!


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## Newpylong (Apr 25, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Sugarloaf:



That certainly seems like a waste of cashola...


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## wa-loaf (Apr 25, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> That certainly seems like a waste of cashola...



You must work for Killington ...


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## Newpylong (Apr 25, 2010)

lol def not!


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## skiadikt (Apr 25, 2010)

the cruelest joke is that the forecast has become more more favorable for snow retention w/ cooler temps and nightime lows below freezing w/ the possibility of some snow mixed in. in fact, the very optimistic snow-forecast has up to 4" of snow. for the weekend, which is still a long way out, there's a chance of showers for saturday and sunny sunday high 56.

but this was purely a business decision. and for them to claim they were basing their decision on a 10-12 day forecast is an absolute joke. skied both days at k this weekend and like 180 left it all on the hill saturday since the forecast for sunday was for rain. woke sunday morning with blazing sunshine. sunday turned out to be even better day than saturday as the bumps softened much earlier.


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## gmcunni (Apr 25, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> the cruelest joke is that the forecast has become more more favorable for snow retention w/ cooler temps and nightime lows below freezing w/ the possibility of some snow mixed in. in fact, the very optimistic snow-forecast has up to 4" of snow. for the weekend, which is still a long way out, there's a chance of showers for saturday and sunny sunday high 56.



maybe they'll announce Monday morning that they've extended the season by a week!!!


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## riverc0il (Apr 26, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> but this was purely a business decision. and for them to claim they were basing their decision on a 10-12 day forecast is an absolute joke.


I don't even understand it as a business decision. Saturday was down right crowded on the trails and the lift was never ski on (likely excepting first and last hour of operation when I was not there). At $39-$42 a head (and let's not forget that passholders already paid and are indeed paying customers), Killington should have easily been able to make a profit this past weekend, let alone break even, let alone run at a slight loss for passholder good will, next year's season pass sales, and marketing. It sure as heck was not like Sugarbush last week when I saw more employees than customers which justified the shut down. Worst of all, given all the snow at the top of Superstar, they wasted a lot of money in snow making. The snow making money is already spent, they might as well try to recoup some money by selling tickets as that expense can not be reduced at this point.

Bottom line: this is perhaps the worst business decision I have seen in the New England ski industry in some time.


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## powbmps (Apr 26, 2010)

Right-on.  I thought they even had some pretty good crowds during the week recently.  Very bummed I couldn't make it this weekend.

They have already switched over their website to biking and hiking.  Booooo!



riverc0il said:


> I don't even understand it as a business decision. Saturday was down right crowded on the trails and the lift was never ski on (likely excepting first and last hour of operation when I was not there). At $39-$42 a head (and let's not forget that passholders already paid and are indeed paying customers), Killington should have easily been able to make a profit this past weekend, let alone break even, let alone run at a slight loss for passholder good will, next year's season pass sales, and marketing. It sure as heck was not like Sugarbush last week when I saw more employees than customers which justified the shut down. Worst of all, given all the snow at the top of Superstar, they wasted a lot of money in snow making. The snow making money is already spent, they might as well try to recoup some money by selling tickets as that expense can not be reduced at this point.
> 
> Bottom line: this is perhaps the worst business decision I have seen in the New England ski industry in some time.


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## bigbob (Apr 26, 2010)

Was there for the closing day, only one dark cloud floated over, great day with lots of sun. Way more terrain open than back in November when it was wall to wall people! Sunday was quieter than Sat from what I heard, but still plenty of people. Thin areas here and there, but ski bottoms did not have to many new gouges. 
 I am sure if the weather is good next weekend and they closed midweek, they would show a profit. Saw a few day tickets yesterday


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## moguler6 (Apr 26, 2010)

Let's not forget that Killington turns K1 for July-Sept for mountain biking.  I hear some days mid-week there's only 10-20 people there using the Gondi.  You can't tell me they're making a profit there!  I can guarantee that if they spun Superstar quad next weekend for skiing they would have a heck of a lot more people than mid-week in the summer for mountain biking.  They need to look at their season profits, not daily.  Just like any business, they're going to have slow days and they'll also have off the hook days, i.e. the weekend after mega-storm.  That Saturday was like the busiest day they had in a decade.  They spent the money to blow all that snow, USE IT!


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## SkiDork (Apr 26, 2010)

very good point about comparing the mtn biking.


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## tjf67 (Apr 26, 2010)

I dont know about K but in Lake Placid they are calling for 6 to 12 tuesday and wed.


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## gmcunni (Apr 26, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I don't even understand it as a business decision.



wonder if it is the same decision as last year but since they got so much flack over it they used weather forecast rather than "new pay period".


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## Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

Saw this on youtube from 4/24/10 coverage looked awfully good:


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## skiadikt (Apr 26, 2010)

moguler6 said:


> Let's not forget that Killington turns K1 for July-Sept for mountain biking.  I hear some days mid-week there's only 10-20 people there using the Gondi.  You can't tell me they're making a profit there!  I can guarantee that if they spun Superstar quad next weekend for skiing they would have a heck of a lot more people than mid-week in the summer for mountain biking.  They need to look at their season profits, not daily.  Just like any business, they're going to have slow days and they'll also have off the hook days, i.e. the weekend after mega-storm.  That Saturday was like the busiest day they had in a decade.  They spent the money to blow all that snow, USE IT!



yeah we've had the mtn biking discussion on kzone. been up there during the summer and find it amazing that they turn the k1 for handful of bikers (nothing against mtn bkiers) yet they close the ski season when on weekends they can still get a nice crowds like they did saturday. expenses are bit higher for skiing but still don't get how they can justify the one and not the other. plus like you say, they already blew all that snow.

also spoke to a local business owner who's closing up a week earlier. suffice it to say he's very unhappy with powdr not only for the closing but also for the opening. i'm sure he's not the only one.


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## SkiDork (Apr 26, 2010)

how are expenses higher for skiing?


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## skiadikt (Apr 26, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> how are expenses higher for skiing?



i guess you have to make few passes w/ a groomer. ski patrol. but probably not much more.


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## SkiDork (Apr 26, 2010)

well, I'm assuming there's gotta be some safety personnel for biking as well, nasty accidents can occure with that.  Groomer, maybe but you technically wouldn' have to groom if you didn't want to


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## Rambo (Apr 26, 2010)

Was looking at Killington's website and they are pushing next years seasons passes and promising skiing into early May of 2011. I find it hard to trust anything they say, seeing as they closed on April 25 of 2010 with wall to wall coverage left on Superstar.

"When choosing your pass you should determine how much you ski/ride and when, then determine what product is right for you. Thanks to the most extensive snowmaking system in the world, the largest modern snow grooming fleet in the east, *Killington will offer an extended season from early November 2010 through early May 2011*, weather and snow conditions permitting."


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## powbmps (Apr 26, 2010)

:lol:  Good one.



Rambo said:


> Was looking at Killington's website and they are pushing next years seasons passes and promising skiing into early May of 2011. I find it hard to trust anything they say, seeing as they closed on April 25 of 2010 with wall to wall coverage left on Superstar.
> 
> "When choosing your pass you should determine how much you ski/ride and when, then determine what product is right for you. Thanks to the most extensive snowmaking system in the world, the largest modern snow grooming fleet in the east, *Killington will offer an extended season from early November 2010 through early May 2011*, weather and snow conditions permitting."


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## bobbutts (Apr 26, 2010)

OK, so I take back any defense I had of the closing day.  I kinda pictured heavy endless rain for this week since I get my weather forecasts from the K insider blog.
Now NWS has a Winter Storm Watch up for N. VT (not for Killington yet) for K's excuse rain storm.  Appears this one will mostly snow for K.  They may very well have more snow next weekend than they did last weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2010)

Rambo said:


> Was looking at Killington's website and they are pushing next years seasons passes and promising skiing into early May of 2011. I find it hard to trust anything they say, seeing as they closed on April 25 of 2010 with wall to wall coverage left on Superstar.
> 
> "When choosing your pass you should determine how much you ski/ride and when, then determine what product is right for you. Thanks to the most extensive snowmaking system in the world, the largest modern snow grooming fleet in the east, *Killington will offer an extended season from early November 2010 through early May 2011*, weather and snow conditions permitting."



  :blink:


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## mondeo (Apr 26, 2010)

Rambo said:


> Was looking at Killington's website and they are pushing next years seasons passes and promising skiing into early May of 2011. I find it hard to trust anything they say, seeing as they closed on April 25 of 2010 with wall to wall coverage left on Superstar.
> 
> "When choosing your pass you should determine how much you ski/ride and when, then determine what product is right for you. Thanks to the most extensive snowmaking system in the world, the largest modern snow grooming fleet in the east, *Killington will offer an extended season from early November 2010 through early May 2011*, weather and snow conditions permitting."








I...really have no defense for Killington at this point. In other news, this thread has passed http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=16926 and is closing in on http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=53129 in terms of post counts.


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