# Off Road Vehicles arrrrgh



## SilentCal (Mar 15, 2004)

While hiking along the Metacomet-Mondanock trail on Mt. Tom (Mass.) yesterday,  we ran into two separate groups of ATV 'ers and dirtbikers.    The ATV 'ers had ascended the mountain from the old ski resort and had stayed off the hiking trails.  They had parked their quads and hiked a short way to a nice viewpoint and were friendly to us.  The dirtbikers on the other had were directly on the lower half of the trail and we had to get off four times from them to go by.  The fourth time I was quite tempted to take my trekking pole and jam it in his front tire spokes to get him to flip.   I ended up just glaring at him and he gave me the finger.   Talk about getting your blood boiling.   Now many hikers hate ORV's but around here in Mass the hiking trails and ORV paths are more and more seeming to go hand in hand.   It's a real shame,  I guess it just means I'll have to go bushwacking more.   Any one else have similar experiences?


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## MtnMagic (Mar 15, 2004)

I've only seen snowmobiles on Cherry Mtn in Twin and ATM's on Coppermine Trail in Franconia. Strickly while there was plenty of snow on the ground.

In spring, summer and fall, I loathe to see these machines digging up trails and causing more washout during rainfall. Here in the Whites many have ORV and contribute to the income (registration fees) to one's town. Let them dig up their own back yard. My feeling is they should only use the many miles of former RR beds.

The trailhead owner of Mt Cabot on the Arthur White Road wanted to run ATV up over the mtn all the way to Gorham. The USFS said 'NO.' That is the main reason the Mt Cabot trail is officially closed. 

Two years ago a hiker and I going up the Tripyramids via Livermore Trail barely escaped being mowwed down by over a dozen bikers as they silently sped at 40 mph toward us.


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## SilentCal (Mar 15, 2004)

Hey Magic    Just where are those ATM's on the Coppermine Trail. :roll:   Just when you thought the banks could not be more intrusive. 

I never knew that was the reason the Mt. Cabot trail was closed.   Nothing screws up a trail more than the ORV's and contribute to erosion more.


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## MtnMagic (Mar 15, 2004)

Ha Ha! My poor spelling, of course I meant ATV's. More homes are being constructed near the first half mile of the Coppermine Trail and a new home was constructed this winter South in full view of the parking area complete with a fence for horses.

Two weekends ago I saw an ATV on Coppermine trail that had huge snow treads mounted on each wheel, ala a tank. The local owner said, "You can't make a snowmachine an ATV, but you can make an ATV a snowmachine." 

First ever I've seen of these. I hope the last!


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## severine (Mar 15, 2004)

I see your points and they're very good ones, but I'm also married to a 4x4 loving man.  His big complaint is that there aren't any 4 wheel drive trails in CT at all.  If you want to 4 wheel, you have to do it in your own yard or on somebody else's property who has given you permission.  I know when we were out in Montana, however, there were quite a few off road "trails" (wide dirt roads) up the mountains that were separate from the hiking trails.  Perhaps that's the middle road to making both groups happy?  Personally I'm not fond of motorized vehicles when I'm out in the woods to get away from it all, but I know other people feel that's their way of "getting away from it all."  I certainly would be upset to share the same trails with ORVs--they should have their own trails that were carefully constructed to have as minimal an impact as possible on the environment.  Is there any governing body that controls who has access to what up there?  Motorized vehicles aren't allowed on the hiking trails I've been on in this area so there must be somebody to appeal to who regulates these things...

(BTW, my husband is also a hiker, so he's familiar with the other perspective...but he loves his 4x4, too.)


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## Greg (Mar 15, 2004)

I used to have ATCs (3 wheelers) and dirt bikes as a kid. They are a blast, but as severine mentions, there are no places to ride them (legally) in CT. Hence, the reason I haven't had one since I was 17....that, and the severe concussion I got on my ATC after slamming into a tree.  :blink:


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## MtnMagic (Mar 15, 2004)

There are 100's of miles of railroad beds throughout NE that have abandoned RR tracks and (at least around here) have removed the tracks. I feel those hardened, mostly level stone beds should be used for hiking, biking and mostly ORV's.

I just hate slamming into trees, could ruin your whole day. Ouch!


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## Max (Mar 16, 2004)

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for ATV owners who live in states where there is limited or non-existant riding, and then complain about it.  I'm sure Severine's hubby doesn't do that, but you hear of lots of ATV-ers who think that they need to be catered to after the fact.  If you live in Nebraska, you don't go out and buy a selection of surfboards and then complain about the lack of places to go surfing.  I guess you gotta know up front what you're getting into, and that it might entail traveling to places where there are approved trails to ride on.


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## severine (Mar 16, 2004)

Max said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for ATV owners who live in states where there is limited or non-existant riding, and then complain about it.  I'm sure Severine's hubby doesn't do that, but you hear of lots of ATV-ers who think that they need to be catered to after the fact.  If you live in Nebraska, you don't go out and buy a selection of surfboards and then complain about the lack of places to go surfing.  I guess you gotta know up front what you're getting into, and that it might entail traveling to places where there are approved trails to ride on.



Great point.  My husband didn't buy his Jeep to go off-roading--he bought it because he likes Jeeps.  It's his daily driver and he gets a chance to do some donuts in the parking lot at work every once in a while, but that's about it.  After going to Montana and seeing the network of off-road trails that were available, the lack of such back home became more apparent--but it's not like he's illegally off-roading or anything.  He's just wishful.  We're also working on relocating and so, while it's not a factor in where we move, he will probably have some preference for an area where there are approved off-road trails.  But it won't be the end of the world if there aren't any...
I also agree with the comment above about the abandoned railroad lines.  Seems like a good way to make both groups happy with less of an impact on the environment.


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## Max (Mar 17, 2004)

Severine, I know, I feel bad for him, living in an area where it's tough to ride.  When I was out in Colorado and Wyoming, there were plenty of places to go off roading, and they even make a tourist industry around renting out Jeeps and such for the purpose.  At least he sounds pretty responsible, and I'm sure his hiking background has given him the insight to see both sides of the fence.  Like Silent Cal says, it only takes a few rotten apples like the type he met to ruin it for all the ones who act responsibly!

Max


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## Mike P. (Mar 23, 2004)

Good point Max on surf boards, in CT they are converting much of the old rail beds into non-motorized paths & these are being used for bikes & ATV''s illegelly too. 

This topic came up a couple of years ago on the AMC boards & someone provided a link to a club in MA that allegedly did low impact events, They still had big holes in brooks & bogs as that was part of the course.

Sorry, I'm biased on the topic, keep them on private property.  At least with snowmobiles once teh snow melts there is no evidence they were there.


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## Eaglescout1985 (Apr 9, 2004)

i worry most about the pollution they cause.  i don't want them in the woods.


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## Mike P. (Apr 9, 2004)

Here is some low impact from baystatejeepers.com

http://www.baystatejeepers.com/trips/pictures/jeepfest03/2003_0621_111911AA.JPG

Another picture shows where they are, very close to Mt. Greylock as you can make out the summit structures & the slide on the East sside of the peak.

Their home page has a link to the USFS, specifically for keeping theri members involved in their goal of getting access in the WMNF:


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## Bumpsis (Apr 9, 2004)

Mike P. said:
			
		

> Here is some low impact from baystatejeepers.com
> 
> That's a great pictute of the "low impact" in practice.
> Man, I don't get it. What's the point of churning mud in the woods?
> ...


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## twigeater (Apr 17, 2004)

different strokes for different folks...
I can't say I've ever had a problem with anyone on a dirt bike, ATV or snowmobile, so I don't have a negative opinion of them. I'm sorry to hear that others have encountered problems - but just like a hiker who ignores LNT or camps illegally, etc., a few are not necessarily representative of the group.  We're all out there for the same (or similar) reasons, only via different modes. Just because we don't choose to do it that way, doesn't mean it's wrong.

There are ATV/Snowmobile trails behind my house, and I utilize them when out walking/snowshoeing/skiing. (is that right, since I don't pay dues to the club that maintains them?) I like that I can walk a couple of miles down the road, then go into the woods and get back to my house via those trails.  I take the snowmobile/ATV maps with me on certain hikes and explore them sometimes.

Course I was brought up hiking/camping AND booney stomping in a jeep - what fun memories for a kid.  And who doesn't enjoy playing in the mud, LOL?  All I gotta do is say "mud season" to my grandkids and we are out in boots and shovels playing in the mud in the driveway.  You grow up and have different toys is all.

I'm not saying that what you guys see is right, just offering a different perspective.


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## bigbog (Apr 18, 2004)

*re:.......*



			
				Bumpsis said:
			
		

> Mike P. said:
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## Bumpsis (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: re:.......*

[quote="bigbog  Of course Bumpsis would probably like to make various portions of the AT endless bump runs wherever possible :lol:[/quote]

For sure, for sure, but only if it's NOT served by ski lifts!!!


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## rossignol (Apr 21, 2004)

*Assumptions by non-Jeep owner... Jeeper/hiker comments about*



			
				Bumpsis said:
			
		

> Mike P. said:
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> ...


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## Stephen (Apr 21, 2004)

Rossingol,

Welcome to the boards... hope you come to enjoy it here as much as we have!

I believe Mike's main issue was with people like those picture who are high impact Jeepers. Sometimes the damage seems pointless.

-Stephen


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## rossignol (Apr 21, 2004)

*Reply to Stephen*

Very true, but in looking at the picture again, there are definently sections of the trail that that will happen... A 4,000 pound vehicle and mud can be difficult... Mud holes are going to happend, you just need to minimize your impact on the rest of the trail... The mud is part of the challege, and I don't think there is any way to prevent sections like that... I love the mud on my mountain bike, guess I carry that over to the Jeep...


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## skiguide (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm definitely of the mind that anything that gets you into Outdoor Recreation is a good thing, motorized or non, and I am one of those rare people that enjoys both, and try to set a good example for others whenever i'm on any type of trail. It's all about mutual respect and obtaining knowledge on how to minimize environmental  impact, and just not be a dumbass, and spoil it for others completely. 

Southern maine has had a lot of uproar lately between ATVers AND Snowmobilers, which you would think would be the same crowd mostly (as we were both) - because of ATVs wrecking trails and privately owned land, they've also had to close it to snowmobilers.   

here in the northeast, it is a bit harder to find separate use trails, because of the tigher area available aand more people using the outdoors. Definitely out west, it's more wide open. but destination spots such as Moab cope on the whole.  

I don't buy into the pollution argument that greatly, because that should be in the hands of federal standards to be reduced across the boards - Trucks/SUVs, boats, etc. 

rossignol... you definitely sound like a dedicated jeeper... just make sure you support those companies that support the cause, and buy your parts/accessories from somewhere like http://www.tellico4x4.com or http://www.rubicon4x4.com


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## Charlie Schuessler (Apr 21, 2004)

*NH Supreme Court Rejects ATV Park Developement*

This morning the NH Supreme Court rejected the claim of a private developer to build an ATV Park on private land without a Site Plan Review & Approval Process by the local authority having jurisidiction (planning board and selectmen).

The Town of Lyndeborough NH defeated BOISVERT PROPERTIES, LLC including the New Hampshire Department of Resources and Economic Development and the Granite State ATV Association. 

See http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/2004/lynde057.htm for the official verdict ruling.  It is not long and is written in plain english.

The proposed ATV Park was to occupy upwards of 500 acres and promoted that the use was for 24/7 all year round.

This will affect the many of the areas in the state operating in the same manner.


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## Mike P. (Apr 27, 2004)

Is mud part of the challenge or part of the impact?

Most of the challenge appears to be climbing rough trails that might tip your vehicle over or end up hung up over a rock or ledge.  They tend to go very slow.  The kids (mostly) that I see in store parking lots in mud covered vehicles are not really embracing the 4x4 LNT (Leave as little as possible trace) & are a black eye on the 4x4 crowd much like the few littering hikers.

Snowmobiles are loud & older models are two stroke engines but once the snow melts, you can't tell they were there.  That is not the case with ATV's & 4x4's.  All stress out the wildlife but that is another issue.


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## mudbogger (May 6, 2004)

*what trails are for*

I dont see how atvs are directly hurting the enviroment, with the statements provided by fellow forum goers, the business of off roading is more of a nusence to people than an actual problem to the enviroment. Mud is not bad for the enviroment, noise is not bad for the enviroment. I dont see any one way of using the trails as better than the other. It should not be anyone person, or groups decision as to how the woods are to be used, everyone has the same right to them. Walkers and offroaders should have a mutual respect for what the other is trying to accomplish. 

P.S. Rossignol where do you go jeepin'?


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## NH_Mtn_Hiker (May 6, 2004)

*Re: what trails are for*



			
				mudbogger said:
			
		

> I dont see how atvs are directly hurting the enviroment, with the statements provided by fellow forum goers, the business of off roading is more of a nusence to people than an actual problem to the enviroment. Mud is not bad for the enviroment, noise is not bad for the enviroment. I dont see any one way of using the trails as better than the other. It should not be anyone person, or groups decision as to how the woods are to be used, everyone has the same right to them. Walkers and offroaders should have a mutual respect for what the other is trying to accomplish.
> 
> P.S. Rossignol where do you go jeepin'?



As an avid hiker and jeeper, I agree, under certain circumstances both jeepin and hiking can _alter_ the enviroment.


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## Charlie Schuessler (May 6, 2004)

Living in the "Scenic Country" of central NH, we have had problems with the noise and wildlife habitat destruction caused by ATV's and Dirt Bikes.  

Trail walkers, horse riders and skiers developed most of our community trails.  Over time bicycles and eventually machines made their way onto them as well.  It is not uncommon for me to walk on trails on my property during a Sunday morning and come across any or all of the trail users listed above.  I haven’t had a face to face problem and I do not look for one.  My wife and I welcome trail users; hopefully peaceful ones who want to enjoy the wildlife as we do.  We enjoy having the wildlife live on our land and are glad when other trail users get to enjoy it as well.

Admittedly I get a bit annoyed when I find trash, broken parts, and discarded personal items on and around the trails.  Periodically I bring a trash bag and take it out full.  

Generally speaking (at least where we live) it is not the landowners or abutters behind the "Blasting through the Woods," but out-of-towners.  I have seen property owners go through the process of closing off trail-use on their land.  I don’t necessarily agree with that, however it is their property.  To be fair, we have had no issues with hunters or fisherman.

Wildlife needs protection from machines tearing up the ground they forage for berries, bark, critter holes, etc. Most land animals are nocturnal, and with machines terrifying them during the day, their rest cycle is disturbed, thus effecting their health.  Birds visit the area less often and that effects the natural cycle of seed dropping, plant growth, fly growth patterns, etc…  Ultimately, the natural cycle of the ecosystem is altered.  That bothers me.

The State Department of Environmental Services (NH DES) specifically protects wetlands and bodies of water.  Running a machine through a wetland or any bodies of water in NH is a forbidden act.

I do believe you have the right to use your land as you may want, however using other person’s property the way you want without their permission is undeserved and wrong.  I believe you will find that is what most people are concerned about.


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## NH_Mtn_Hiker (May 6, 2004)

Charlie Schuessler wrote:


> Trail walkers, horse riders and skiers developed most of our community trails.


and many community trails are old roads.


> Admittedly I get a bit annoyed when I find trash, broken parts, and discarded personal items on and around the trails. Periodically I bring a trash bag and take it out full.


I've come across alot more garbage on trails used by hikers and skiers than on ATV and jeep trails.


> Wildlife needs protection from machines tearing up the ground they forage for berries, bark, critter holes, etc. Most land animals are nocturnal, and with machines terrifying them during the day, their rest cycle is disturbed, thus effecting their health. Birds visit the area less often and that effects the natural cycle of seed dropping, plant growth, fly growth patterns, etc… Ultimately, the natural cycle of the ecosystem is altered. That bothers me.


That's funny.  The moose and bears I see crossing the Kanc. don't look too bothered.  The next time you're driving along and see some deer in a field near the road, stop your car and get out.  Then see how fast the deer leave.  Many animals are much more afraid of people on foot than they are of vehicles.
"fly growth patterns", now that bothers me.

On a related note.  Massabesic Lake is a primary water source for the residents of Manchester, NH.  Motor boats are permitted on this lake, swimmers are not.  That's because it has been determined that people are more harmful to the enviroment than motor boats. :-?


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## MtnMagic (May 6, 2004)

Seed droppings, plant growth, bird visits, yes, all understood. Fly growth patterns is a bit less than clear. Mud pollution can be a problem. But noise pollution may be a noisier problem. Not to mention the air pollutants.
________________
Can you elaborate, please?!


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## MtnMagic (May 6, 2004)

And btw I'd like to share the following fact: The biggest secret in the state of NH is the fact that its largest lake, Winnipesaukee is completely polluded with oil and gas from years of leakage from boats. 

Now local area private wells are saturated with this *growth pattern*. The slick is seen on the water everyday.
_________________
I am glad to be very far north of this pollution!


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## NH_Mtn_Hiker (May 6, 2004)

MtnMagic wrote:


> And btw I'd like to share the following fact: The biggest secret in the state of NH is the fact that its largest lake, Winnipesaukee is completely polluded with oil and gas from years of leakage from boats.
> 
> Now local area private wells are saturated with this *growth pattern*. The slick is seen on the water everyday.



Another big secret is that oil and gas floats on the surface of water (that's why motor boats are allowed on Massabesic) so I doubt the whole lake is polluded (what's polluded mean anyways  ), and the amount of oil and gas leaking from boats is nothing compared to the amount leaked by cars and trucks in the area and then washed into the lake.  Wouldn't you agree?


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## Charlie Schuessler (May 7, 2004)

Old roads were initially developed as walking trails by wildlife and mankind, not the other way around...


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## Mike P. (May 7, 2004)

If the mud washes into the streams, you add more silt than would be there without churning it all up.  While noise may not hurt the environment, it's not part of the environment either, it's added & the engines that make it pollute.

Thinkling old septic tanks maybe more of an issue on lakes with older established communities on them.


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