# Smugglers Notch lift opinions



## Tin (Aug 22, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Smuggler's Notch: $72
> 
> Who knew 5 ancient doubles would cost so much to maintain?




Bigger lifts or HS lifts would ruin the place imo. They are not bad for Sterling but it's a long haul to ski Madonna.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 22, 2015)

Tin said:


> Bigger lifts or HS lifts would ruin the place imo. They are not bad for Sterling but it's a long haul to ski Madonna.


Yeah so they say. Do I believe it? Nope.


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## ss20 (Aug 22, 2015)

Madonna would be perfect for a high-speed double.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 22, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Madonna would be perfect for a high-speed double.


And MRG would be perfect for a High Speed Detachable single...:smile:

With a detach mid station of course.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2015)

Top of Madonna is too exposed and windy for a detachable chair.

Only upgrade I'd ever want to see on Madonna is maybe a fixed grip triple.  A touch more capacity and having a singles line would be nice.  

The long ride on Madonna has never bothered me.  Probably because it goes over one of the top 5 trails in New England.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2015)

Tin said:


> Bigger lifts or HS lifts would ruin the place imo. They are not bad for Sterling but it's a long haul to ski Madonna.



I know this has been covered repeatedly, but I'm just not buying this.  This, IMO, has always been used as the excuse and the "cover", but I ski there quite a bit, and M-F there are no crowds, a quicker trip would be nice.  

Saturday the lines are getting horrific, and I'm not buying the, "more people would get too crowded" logic, because frankly even on the big crowd days the trails are relatively empty.  Capacity NEEDS to be increased at Smuggler's Notch, and you'd hardly notice it.


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2015)

They just really don't want to lose that empty feeling on a crowded Saturday. The conditions of the trails might not take that much, but twice as many people on the trails would definitely be noticed.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2015)

Jully said:


> *They just really don't want to lose that empty feeling on a crowded Saturday.* The conditions of the trails might not take that much, but *twice as many people on the trails would definitely be noticed*.




You dont have to go 2x, even 1.5x would be a godsend.   The only place it might even be noticeable is right when you get off Madonna, because there's only two _immediate_ routes down (3 technically, but only 1% of people ski Liftline), but I dont think juicing it to 1.5x would be an issue.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know this has been covered repeatedly, but I'm just not buying this.  This, IMO, has always been used as the excuse and the "cover", but I ski there quite a bit, and M-F there are no crowds, a quicker trip would be nice.
> 
> Saturday the lines are getting horrific, and I'm not buying the, "more people would get too crowded" logic, because frankly even on the big crowd days the trails are relatively empty.  Capacity NEEDS to be increased at Smuggler's Notch, and you'd hardly notice it.



I think it is purely a cost issue.  The install of a HSQ is several million dollars; and the operations require more electricity, more staff, and more maintenance.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> You dont have to go 2x, even 1.5x would be a godsend.   The only place it might even be noticeable is right when you get off Madonna, because there's only two _immediate_ routes down (3 technically, but only 1% of people ski Liftline), but I dont think juicing it to 1.5x would be an issue.


Killington only has only one immediate route & they have an 8 passenger gondola unloading onto it. How many ski Catwalk or upper Cascade/Downdraft? There's no excuse for Smuggs to not have a better main lift. They can't even give the kiddies a HSQ on Morse & that's not exactly a short lift either. Smuggs doesn't put any money into the mountain & that includes snowmaking. If you like clowns in the base lodge then Smuggs is for you.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 23, 2015)

There is absolutely zero comparison in trail capacity between K and their gondola and what's off the top of Madonna.  Zero.  

Lots of snowmaking improvements at Smuggs this past winter.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> There is absolutely zero comparison in trail capacity between K and their gondola and what's off the top of Madonna.  Zero.
> 
> Lots of snowmaking improvements at Smuggs this past winter.


How's that? 

One way as opposed to two.

60% snowmaking coverage.

Does Wildcat have a problem running a HSQ on one of the windiest mountains in New England?

There is no excuse except for no investment.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 23, 2015)

Chilcoot and Drifter are narrow trails that go for half a mile at least before splitting off to other significant options.  The trail off of the Gondola at K  is wider and runs into multiple trails within a very short distance.  It's essentially a feeder trail to the Canyon Area, South Ridge, North Ridge.   

The carrying capacity of the trails off the top of Madonna is maybe 25% what it is on K peak.  
The good thing is you can just keep on skiing K if that's what you like.  Pretty obvious pattern with you steamboat; crap on one ski area, sing the praises of Killington, wash, rinse, repeat.  Smuggs isn't missing your business, nor Hunter, Magic, Burke etc.   As you saw in the Hunter thread, nobody really cares to read your piss poor attitude either.


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2015)

Wildcat's trails do get skied off really quickly up top. I've had countless discussions with people about how wildcat needs more trail capacity up top.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 23, 2015)

Absolutely the case at Wildcat with their high speed lift.  Love the lift, but it hammers the top.  It would be even worse at Smuggs.   Best thing that could happen at Wildcat would be another trail cut between Lynx and Polecat.  A reasonably wide blue to chew up skier traffic.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is purely a cost issue.





steamboat1 said:


> Smuggs doesn't put any money into the mountain & that includes snowmaking.



Agreed.  I'm fairly confident it's 90% about money, maybe more.

That said, with regard to current ownership, it might well be a _"be careful what you wish for"_ sort of a thing, because I love Smuggler's Notch, and to put it gently, ownership isnt that young.  I fully expect an ownership change within the next decade, and god forbid it it gets sold to an entity like SKIS or MTN who starts building 4-star restaurants, doubles parking, bubble quads everywhere, and every square inch of viewable space gets branded.....well....I'll cry.   I'll take the decrepit lifts and dime store on-mountin "entertainment" (which can be embarrassing if you're well familiar and know what I mean) any day over that.


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## ss20 (Aug 24, 2015)

Does Smuggler's still advertise that "new" base village at Morse?  Stayed in a condo there a few years ago... felt more like a lower-class apartment.  Lots and lots of concrete.  Food there was extremely "meh".  Getting to Madonna was an absolute PITA.  The shuttle was quicker than taking one of the Morse lifts and then traversing over to M1.  

It was crappy conditions with little natural open but I was able to see what all the hubub was about on Madonna.  I can also see that management doesn't invest any money into their on-or-off-mountain product.  But considering what's on the other side of the Notch I don't know if that's good or bad.  But like the skier's we are, we'll clench our teeth as we go through the two worlds that are Smuggler's and Stowe, until we get on the mountain, where the Promised Land awaits.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty obvious pattern with you steamboat; crap on one ski area, sing the praises of Killington, wash, rinse, repeat.


Explain to be how I was praising Killington. I wouldn't exactly call saying an 8 passenger gondola empties onto a single trail giving it praise. If you prefer ski areas with all old slow Hall double chairs that's your prerogative. My opinion happens to differ. Besides I thought you were supposed to be a moderator on this site not a shit stirrer.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2015)

Not a shit stirrer.  Just calling it like I see it.  You've got a crappy attitude.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 24, 2015)

ss20 said:


> *Does Smuggler's still advertise that "new" base village at Morse?  Stayed in a condo there a few years ago... felt more like a lower-class apartment.*  Lots and lots of concrete.  *Food there was extremely "meh".  Getting to Madonna was an absolute PITA.  The shuttle was quicker than taking one of the Morse lifts* and then traversing over to M1.



The shuttle still is quicker, but that's a function of how close Morse & Madonna are. I dont think it's a big deal to take the lift up Morse and ski to Madonna I/II when I'm slopeside. 

Food at Smuggs is still somewhat "meh" as you say, mostly due to lack of options.  Green Tomatoes is very good food for lunch though, I'd recommend that, but the on-mountain apres ski restaurant food is just okay.  The Morse Grill restaurant's decent.  Not bad, not stellar.  I've never eaten at the Smuggs' pizza parlor, because I'm from New Jersey.   And I've never actually eaten in the "high-end" on-mountain Smuggs restaurant (Hearth & Candle) either, because the prices were like Manhattan, which I think is stupid, and the fact I thought it might be "high-risk" so to speak.  When I'm staying at Smuggs and want a very nice meal, I go to 158 Main.  Very good food.

The newest condos are higher up the hill you go on Morse, they're not bad at all.  The base inventory is the oldest, and some of the "non-repairs" are penny-wise and pound foolish.  Actually, I'd classify some of them as completely ridiculous.  For instance, in the Hakone building, the stairwell carpets are worn out so bad in spots it reaches the concrete.  EVERYONE staying in that building will see that.  So that's a cheap repair and it's on management.  Not that I give a ratz azz, I'm there to ski.  Just as long as the obvious spendthrift lack of repairs doesnt include the lifts, I'm happy.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I thought you were supposed to be a moderator on this site not a shit stirrer.





deadheadskier said:


> Just calling it like I see it.  You've got a crappy attitude.



You're both correct.  Now stop fighting.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The shuttle still is quicker, but that's a function of how close Morse & Madonna are. I dont think it's a big deal to take the lift up Morse and ski to Madonna I/II when I'm slopeside.
> 
> Food at Smuggs is still somewhat "meh" as you say, mostly due to lack of options.  Green Tomatoes is very good food for lunch though, I'd recommend that, but the on-mountain apres ski restaurant food is just okay.  The Morse Grill restaurant's decent.  Not bad, not stellar.  I've never eaten at the Smuggs' pizza parlor, because I'm from New Jersey.   And I've never actually eaten in the "high-end" on-mountain Smuggs restaurant (Hearth & Candle) either, because the prices were like Manhattan, which I think is stupid, and the fact I thought it might be "high-risk" so to speak.  When I'm staying at Smuggs and want a very nice meal, I go to 158 Main.  Very good food.
> 
> The newest condos are higher up the hill you go on Morse, they're not bad at all.  The base inventory is the oldest, and some of the "non-repairs" are penny-wise and pound foolish.  Actually, I'd classify some of them as completely ridiculous.  For instance, in the Hakone building, the stairwell carpets are worn out so bad in spots it reaches the concrete.  EVERYONE staying in that building will see that.  So that's a cheap repair and it's on management.  Not that I give a ratz azz, I'm there to ski.  Just as long as the obvious spendthrift lack of repairs doesnt include the lifts, I'm happy.



Can someone who is more in the "know" confirm that Smuggs is still owned and run by the same ownership that existed decades ago?


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## WWF-VT (Aug 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Can someone who is more in the "know" confirm that Smuggs is still owned and run by the same ownership that existed decades ago?




http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/corporate/officers.php

*William P. Stritzler,* Managing Director, has been with Smugglers’ Notch  since 1987


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/corporate/officers.php
> 
> *William P. Stritzler,* Managing Director, has been with Smugglers’ Notch  since 1987



Interesting.  Not only did he go to my alma mater, but he bought Smuggs from the previous owner in 1996:

http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/corporate/history.php

So it is a different owner than I was thinking, but one who has been there a long time.  I wonder if he will sell at some point soon?


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## VTKilarney (Aug 24, 2015)

They can always throttle a high speed quad on days when capacity would be an issue.  On weekdays it would sure make things a LOT nicer.

On the other hand, it's more frustrating to have a throttled high speed quad than no high speed quad at all.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've never eaten at the Smuggs' pizza parlor, because I'm from New Jersey.



What does one have to do with the other? I'm from NJ and honestly have had pizza in VT at several places that beat most of the pizzerias around where I live in northern NJ. I'm not saying Smuggs' pizza parlor is like that, but being from NJ won't stop me from at least trying pizza in VT. Pizza Soul in Sugarbush Village kicks the ass of just about any local pizzeria in my area of NJ. American Flatbread is also a whole other level of pizza. Pie in the Sky in Stowe was great as well, although I heard they've since closed.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 24, 2015)

God dammit people. The best argument I have heard is a triple
...I like that idea. A HSQ is not going to work. In the brief spots where Madonna I runs higher than 10-15 ft off the ground it sucks. They did a survey to add a lift from the top of Madonna II to where the turn for Catwalk is and it was nixed because the wind was awful. The top of Madonna is one big rocky ledge. They had to blast so much rock just to make Chilcoot. The expert terrain can not handle the increased traffic. This isn't Killington!

I would not be upset if they upgraded Sterling to a HSQ. It has a lot more routes from the top, not nearly as rocky, and has the snowmaking infrastructure. Sterling can be as fun and has plenty of tree skiing that can rival Madonna. Plus who wouldn't want to do high speed laps of the BB.


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## yeggous (Aug 24, 2015)

cdskier said:


> What does one have to do with the other? I'm from NJ and honestly have had pizza in VT at several places that beat most of the pizzerias around where I live in northern NJ. I'm not saying Smuggs' pizza parlor is like that, but being from NJ won't stop me from at least trying pizza in VT. Pizza Soul in Sugarbush Village kicks the ass of just about any local pizzeria in my area of NJ. American Flatbread is also a whole other level of pizza. Pie in the Sky in Stowe was great as well, although I heard they've since closed.



Flatbread is a chain that can be had anywhere in New England, and some locations beyond.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## moresnow (Aug 24, 2015)

cdskier said:


> What does one have to do with the other? I'm from NJ and honestly have had pizza in VT at several places that beat most of the pizzerias around where I live in northern NJ. I'm not saying Smuggs' pizza parlor is like that, but being from NJ won't stop me from at least trying pizza in VT.



That's unpossible.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> How's that?
> 
> One way as opposed to two.
> 
> ...



Wildcat blows straight up or straight down depending on the day. It sucks to ski in but the lift runs pretty well. Wind on Madonna runs left to right (if you are riding up the lift) almost always.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Flatbread is a chain that can be had anywhere in New England, and some locations beyond.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



It's actually a different ownership group

VT American Flatbread:

http://americanflatbread.com/

vs the one you're probably thinking about

http://www.flatbreadcompany.com/


I have not tried the VT restaurants.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> God dammit people. The best argument I have heard is a triple
> ...I like that idea. A HSQ is not going to work. In the brief spots where Madonna I runs higher than 10-15 ft off the ground it sucks


Wouldn't suck any worse with a fixed grip quad. Might even suck less with a carpet loaded quad that gets you off the lift faster. Who puts in a triple now days anyway? Yeah I know West Mt. but seriously.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2015)

Being from Brooklyn I have no comment on VT. pizza. Might get slandered if I do, right DHS.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It's actually a different ownership group
> 
> VT American Flatbread:
> 
> ...



Yea, the VT American Flatbread is the original and the one I'm referring to. Not only is the food amazing, but the whole vibe at the Waitsfield location is awesome. It can be 5 degrees out in the middle of winter and people will be hanging out around the fire pit outside drinking wine or beer telling stories about that day's adventures on the slopes while waiting for their name to be called.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Yea, the VT American Flatbread is the original and the one I'm referring to. Not only is the food amazing, but the whole vibe at the Waitsfield location is awesome. It can be 5 degrees out in the middle of winter and people will be hanging out around the fire pit outside drinking wine or beer telling stories about that day's adventures on the slopes while waiting for their name to be called.



+1. 

Met my wife on a date to the American Flat Bread in BTV.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2015)

What happened to the ticket price discussion?  this is either a thread on Smuggs or pizza now.


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## moresnow (Aug 24, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> What happened to the ticket price discussion?  this is either a thread on Smuggs or pizza now.



mmmm pizza

If I had to pick one food to eat forever, I'd probably pick pizza.


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## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2015)

moresnow said:


> mmmm pizza
> 
> If I had to pick one food to eat forever, I'd probably pick pizza.



It would be a great choice. I can eat it 3 meals a day!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Being from Brooklyn I have no comment on VT. pizza. Might get slandered if I do, right DHS.



I prefer New Haven

http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/101-best-pizzas-in-america-2015/ss-BBlsX4K#image=102


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> What happened to the ticket price discussion?  this is either a thread on Smuggs or pizza now.



Need something to talk about while waiting for more areas to post their new prices! :grin: Sugarbush doesn't post their new ticket prices until October.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I prefer New Haven


Everyone is entitled to there opinion, right DHS?


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## yeggous (Aug 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> +1.
> 
> Met my wife on a date to the American Flat Bread in BTV.
> 
> ...



Flatbread Company had licensed the branch for many years. According to their own website, American Flatbread was purchased by Flatbread Company in 2013.

I too prefer New Haven apizza. I spent five years in New Haven for grad school and the apizza is just about the only part of the city that I miss.


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## SkiFanE (Aug 24, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Flatbread Company had licensed the branch for many years. According to their own website, American Flatbread was purchased by Flatbread Company in 2013.
> 
> I too prefer New Haven apizza. I spent five years in New Haven for grad school and the apizza is just about the only part of the city that I miss.


Love Flatbread. There's one a mile and half away. I like thin crust pizza - and their carne of the day is usually my choice.  I like their mission of local sustainability and all that earthy-crunchy stuff too. Kids love it too - so always the go to place when we need to please everyone. Husband likes their beer selection.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Everyone is entitled to there opinion, right DHS?



sure


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Flatbread Company had licensed the branch for many years. According to their own website, American Flatbread was purchased by Flatbread Company in 2013.



Read the whole paragraph on the section you're talking about. The Waitsfield location is still independently owned by the original American Flatbread Company: "Waitsfield Vermont‐based American Flatbread Company will continue to own and operate their restaurant at Lareau Farm." :razz:


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2015)

cdskier said:


> What does one have to do with the other?



It's low-grade dog food.  



MadMadWorld said:


> *I would not be upset if they upgraded Sterling to a HSQ.* It has a lot more routes from the top, not nearly as rocky, and has the snowmaking infrastructure. Sterling can be as fun and has plenty of tree skiing that can rival Madonna. Plus who wouldn't want to do high speed laps of the BB.



I would do that first before addressing any change at Madonna.  Though my legs couldn't handle numerous high speed laps of the BB.


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## machski (Aug 25, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Wouldn't suck any worse with a fixed grip quad. Might even suck less with a carpet loaded quad that gets you off the lift faster. Who puts in a triple now days anyway? Yeah I know West Mt. but seriously.



There is one advantage to a Triple over a Quad.  While not a huge increase, typically fixed grip lifts can be run slightly faster as you decrease seats on a chair.  So a FGT with a carpet would give you a slightly faster ride than a quad.  Triples still get installed, Taos put one to the summit to limit capacity.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2015)

My thoughts on the triple was not necessarily to increase capacity much at all, but to make sure that the capacity is used.  For whatever reason singles lines don't seem to work with double chairs.  Probably because most doubles don't have them, so singles end up getting in the regular lines. This results in people not pairing up and you get chairs with an empty seat heading up.

I'd have no problem with a HSQ on Sterling.  It lacks the wind issues and has the trail capacity to handle it.  Madonna just doesn't.  Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't spent enough time up top on a busy weekend.  The limited trails already get beat to crap in a hurry even with just the double.


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## Tin (Aug 25, 2015)

A HSQ on Madonna would be like running K1 (filling every other one) with only Great Northern and Bear Trax-Launch Pad open and not having anything open (No Ridge or Canyon area) until Mousetrap and Skyelark...a complete nightmare.


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## Domeskier (Aug 25, 2015)

A HSQ would also mean less time to contemplate poor people.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2015)

:lol:


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## Brad J (Aug 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Absolutely the case at Wildcat with their high speed lift.  Love the lift, but it hammers the top.  It would be even worse at Smuggs.   Best thing that could happen at Wildcat would be another trail cut between Lynx and Polecat.  A reasonably wide blue to chew up skier traffic.



I would rather see Wildcat make snow TTB on Gondiline , I think that would make the mountain a lot more skiable. they will never cut another trail on the upper half,  to many restrictions.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 25, 2015)

The lifts suck at Smuggler's.  Froze my ass off waiting in line and the long slow ride.  But the terrain is awesome.  So I guess rather see the terrain stay as is.

The Wildcat HSQ is one of the best lifts in New England.  Fast with huge vertical access to everything.  I love that lift.


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## Newpylong (Aug 25, 2015)

Brad J said:


> I would rather see Wildcat make snow TTB on Gondiline , I think that would make the mountain a lot more skiable. they will never cut another trail on the upper half,  to many restrictions.



Yes there certainly is no need to cut additional terrain at Wildcat when they have two runs off the summit (Lift Lion and Upper Wildcat) that have or had snowmaking capacity not currently used.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2015)

Good points.  If they added the same equipment to those trails that Lynx got, it would make a world of difference.   Maybe in 20 years :lol:


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2015)

Wildcat: HSQ is one of the top rated lifts in New England, it's always mentioned on this site as being excellent (I agree).  There are four trails off of the summit, two with snowmaking (that's being generous, I know).

Smuggler's Notch: M1 is a jewel and should never be touched because adding speed and capacity would ruin the skiing.  Three trails from the summit, one with snowmaking.  

So one snowmaking trail and one extra natural trail at Wildcat warrant _three times_ the capacity of M1 (800pph vs 2400pph). 

By the logic of "The Defenders of Maddonna", now is the time to buy Chinese stocks and you should also lock-in your oil rate before prices double.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2015)

That's not really accurate.

Wildcat actually has more like 6 trails off the top to Madonna's 4.  Lynx and Catapult veer off of Polecat and Wildcat respectively within 100 - 200 yards while those trails are traverses.  So, it's more like Polecat, Lynx, Top Cat, Lift Lion, Catapult and Wildcat.  3 of those trails have snowmaking; Polecat, Lynx and Catapult.  Those trails are wider than the two snowmaking trails off M1 in Chilcoot and Drifter.  The 3 natural trails at Wildcat are open considerably more often than the 2 natural trails off of M1 and they also hold snow better.  Liftline and Upper Free Fall get picked clean in a hurry because of how steep and rocky they are.  

Anyone who skis Wildcat frequently will tell you that the top can get skied off pretty quickly.  Yes, the lift is awesome, but it certainly puts a lot of traffic on the trails and things can get skied off in a hurry.  That changed for the better last year with new guns, but as Brad and Newly point out, adding snowmaking to Lift Lion and Wildcat would help tremendously.

Madonna would be an absolute nightmare with 2400 pph heading up there.  Way worse than Wildcat.

This argument could easily be settled with Comfortable Carrying Capacity data.  Whenever you see master plans of ski areas, this information is typically included in discussions about increasing lift capacity or widening trails.  While it might not be a 3 to 1 margin, I bet the difference is significant between Wildcat and Madonna.   That's why I suggested a Fixed Grip triple tops figuring about 1200pph.


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## Newpylong (Aug 26, 2015)

Based on what I heard last year they might need to do some work on the pipes on Lift Lion and Upper Wildcat before they can be charged. Wildcat is like Magic whereas almost the entire mountain had snowmaking at one point but the system was neglected.

I hope some of these deficiencies are on their radar there is so much good terrain off the top if those 2 could be open more often.


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## marcski (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I prefer New Haven
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/101-best-pizzas-in-america-2015/ss-BBlsX4K#image=102


Pepe's is an entire level far and above every other pizzeria, whether in Brooklyn or elsewhere.  Their new location in Yonkers is only about 15 mins from me and it is one of our favorite dinners now.


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## machski (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That's not really accurate.
> 
> Wildcat actually has more like 6 trails off the top to Madonna's 4.  Lynx and Catapult veer off of Polecat and Wildcat respectively within 100 - 200 yards while those trails are traverses.  So, it's more like Polecat, Lynx, Top Cat, Lift Lion, Catapult and Wildcat.  3 of those trails have snowmaking; Polecat, Lynx and Catapult.  Those trails are wider than the two snowmaking trails off M1 in Chilcoot and Drifter.  The 3 natural trails at Wildcat are open considerably more often than the 2 natural trails off of M1 and they also hold snow better.  Liftline and Upper Free Fall get picked clean in a hurry because of how steep and rocky they are.
> 
> ...



You do realize you can get a High Speed lift and go with less chairs than standard.  Both Loon and Ragged have done this in the past (Loon with North Peak express and Ragged with the 6).  Granted, both have added chairs to the full capacity since, but I heard somewhere out west added a HSQ this summer with only 1200 or 1400 SPH carry capacity.  So it can be done, and a bit of a cost savings too.


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## yeggous (Aug 26, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Based on what I heard last year they might need to do some work on the pipes on Lift Lion and Upper Wildcat before they can be charged. Wildcat is like Magic whereas almost the entire mountain had snowmaking at one point but the system was neglected.
> 
> I hope some of these deficiencies are on their radar there is so much good terrain off the top if those 2 could be open more often.



This is spot on. Most of their old pipe won't hold pressure. Unfortunately I don't see Peak Resorts investing further money into their pipe. Snowmaking at Wildcat is more expensive due to the need to use diesel. Peak Resorts is losing money so they're not prepared to invest in the kitty. Most of their recent upgrades were an existential need.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

I do realize that they can decrease the number of chairs to run at a lower capacity.  As MMW described well, there's also wind direction as a factor.  A fixed grip would run more often than a detachable.  

I'm wondering if the same folks calling for the HSQ at Smuggs feel the same about the Castlerock Double chair at Sugarbush.  This always comes up with Smuggs, but not Castlerock.  For some reason preserving the character and snow conditions on Castlerock is sacred, but doing the same for the expert terrain on Madonna is not, even though Madonna expert terrain is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Castlerock IMO.


----------



## xwhaler (Aug 26, 2015)

My opinion: HSQ/Triple on Sterling, leave M1 as is
2 other thoughts I havent heard mentioned yet 
1) I'd also suggest possibly a HSQ to replace M2---unload area should be able to handle it and would help spread intermediate traffic over there

2) resurrect the mid station on M1 for uploading. Perhaps it wouldn't get used that much on the wknds as chairs would be full but could be nice midweek to lap the upper mtn and not deal with the run out.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> even though Madonna expert terrain is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Castlerock IMO.



I would say you are in the minority with this opinion.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> I would say you are in the minority with this opinion.



In Waitsfield?  Yup.  In Jeffersonville?  Nope.

IMO - Madonna Lift line is the premier marked expert run in New England.  Tramline at Cannon coming in a close second. 

I'll give a slight edge to Robins over Rumble.  Similar trails, but Robins has more drops.

Castle Rock Run and Middle Earth have more character than Upper FIS and Freefall, so probably advantage Bush there.  Slight though as I'd consider the two Smuggs trails more challenging due to much longer consistently steeper terrain.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 26, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> I would say you are in the minority with this opinion.



I'm with DHS and I have skied both a lot. The off map stuff doesn't even come close either. The Survey lines are ridiculous. Shots off of Robin's and everything in Black Hole are far more challenging then anything I have skied off of Castlerock


----------



## Tin (Aug 26, 2015)

Madonna's on map and off map stuff is far more difficult than anything in Castlerock and generally has better snow conditions.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

Saddleback may close this year because their main double chair lacks uphill capacity. Just saying.

On another note Castlerock is not the main lift at Sugarbush.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

What is the "main lift" at Sugarbush?  

Heavens gate, Lynx, and Ellen chairs are all fixed grip too.


----------



## xwhaler (Aug 26, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Saddleback may close this year because their main double chair lacks uphill capacity. Just saying.



..


----------



## danimals (Aug 26, 2015)

i went to smuggs for the first time last year. The terrain was incredible, but man, those lifts. anything would be an improvement. As others have said, i don't think theres much they can do, as once you are off of the lift you either turn left, right, or off the backside.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the "main lift" at Sugarbush?
> 
> Heavens gate, Lynx, and Ellen chairs are all fixed grip too.


Heh?????

Super Bravo & Gatehouse which are the two main chairs out of the Lincoln Peak base area are both HSQ's. At Mount Ellen you have the Green Mountain Express as the main lift out of the base which is also a HSQ. There's also the North Ridge Express at Ellen if you don't want to ski all the way to the bottom. How can you compare Smuggs or Saddleback to the lift system at the Bush?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

Because one could argue that replacing Sterling with a High Speed Quad which I've said I'm in favor of would make for the same type of scenario at Sugarbush and their lower mountain high speed chairs.  Sterling is more the main lift than Madonna. It sees twice the skier traffic.  

Sugarbush just like Smuggs doesn't offer high speed lifts at their main summits due to wind and lack of trail capacity.  Same reason why many don't want a HSQ up Madonna.

And it was you who brought Saddleback into the discussion not I.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Because one could argue that replacing Sterling with a High Speed Quad which I've said I'm in favor of would make for the same type of scenario at Sugarbush and their lower mountain high speed chairs.  Sterling is more the main lift than Madonna. It sees twice the skier traffic.
> 
> Sugarbush just like Smuggs doesn't offer high speed lifts at their main summits due to wind and lack of trail capacity.  Same reason why many don't want a HSQ up Madonna.
> 
> And it was you who brought Saddleback into the discussion not I.


Upper mountain lifts?. M1 is the main lift period. I don't consider Morse the lower mountain off Madonna anymore than I'd consider Snowshed the lower mountain off K peak. 

Anyway see you in a few days. I'll be out of radio contact.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

WTF?  You just labeled the lower mountain lifts at SB as the main lifts.   You didn't label the summit lifts as the main lifts.

The vast majority of skiing trails, acreage and people at Smuggs is at Sterling.  That is where capacity is most needed. Sterling = Gate House / Valley House or NorthX.


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 26, 2015)

FWIW - I like Smuggs a lot and have always enjoyed skiing there.  The lines suck on weekends and the I agree with DHS that a High Speed Quad on Sterling makes the most sense to improve uphill capacity.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> *Sterling is more the main lift than Madonna. It sees twice the skier traffic.  *



Do you have data on that, because I feel 90% confident that cant be true.  Just doesn't seem possible.


EDIT:

Unless maybe you arrive at it by counting all the early and late season dates in which Sterling is open and Madonna is closed, but that's a misleading interpretation if that's the math.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 26, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you have data on that, because I feel 90% confident that cant be true.  Just doesn't seem possible.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> ...



I'd agree with him but even if that is not the case, if you have been there on a busy weekend, traffic gets spread out across M1 and Sterling depending on how long the wait is. If the line is longer at M1 then folks just go to Sterling. Putting in a HSQ at Sterling would spread the crowd out even more that way. I really don't like riding M2 when Sterling and M1 are a shit show.


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## dlague (Aug 26, 2015)

Well, looking at their trail map, Madonna II or Sterling would be good candidates for higher speed lifts.  Both service areas that get more snow making (see below - yellow areas) therefore trails can be reworked or touched up much easier.  Madonna I services trails that are not covered by snow making according to their trail map and would get beat to crap if there was too much traffic.  The problem with Madonna II it does not provide any access to advanced terrain and the lift unloading area is kind of a choking point where people are skiing down from Madonna I so with higher capacity there might be more danger.

So Sterling is the best option!


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 26, 2015)

dlague said:


> Well, looking at their trail map, Madonna II or Sterling would be good candidates for higher speed lifts.  Both service areas that get more snow making (see below - yellow areas) therefore trails can be reworked or touched up much easier.  Madonna I services trails that are not covered by snow making according to their trail map and would get beat to crap if there was too much traffic.  The problem with Madonna II it does not provide any access to advanced terrain and the lift unloading area is kind of a choking point where people are skiing down from Madonna I so with higher capacity there might be more danger.
> 
> So Sterling is the best option!
> 
> View attachment 17364



Not to mention the terrain over there is boring as hell. It has some great intermediate glades but the run out is rough on kids and the rest of the terrain on that side is repetitive. Sterling is by far the best option.


----------



## dlague (Aug 26, 2015)

dlague said:


> The problem with Madonna II it does not provide any access to advanced terrain





MadMadWorld said:


> Not to mention the terrain over there is boring as hell. It has some great intermediate glades but the run out is rough on kids and the rest of the terrain on that side is repetitive. Sterling is by far the best option.



exactly


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the "main lift" at Sugarbush?
> 
> Heavens gate, Lynx, and Ellen chairs are all fixed grip too.


HG & North Lynx = triple chairs, Summit quad at Ellen is well "a quad".  Smuggs all doubles. By the way how many routes are off the top of Mt. Ellen summit with it's quad. Considering not many ski Black Diamond or FIS I count "one" just like they don't ski Liftline or FIS at Smuggs yet Smuggs has two routes. Think they get a little wind up there too being it rises right out of the Champlain Valley. Heavier quad chairs are perfect for that. Guess what happens when that one route off Mt Ellen summit finally does break off into other trails. There's a HSQ unloading at that point dumping more people. Saying Madonna peak can't handle a quad is BS. Besides I didn't say anything about a HSQ. Think it was me who mentioned a carpet loaded fixed grip quad would be ideal. I didn't say anything about a HSQ not working at Sterling either. Would be about time Smuggs installed a high speed lift. The kiddies down at Morse could use one too. There's no excuse for Smuggs except they refuse to invest money into the mountain period.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

I said I'd be fine with a Fixed Grip triple on Madonna.  Numerous other people in this thread agree with me that they wouldn't want to see much of an increase in capacity if any on Madonna.  I said I'd be fine with Sterling having a HSQ.  Numerous other agreed that that's a good option to. 

Not sure why you wish to keep arguing with me.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> WTF?  You just labeled the lower mountain lifts at SB as the main lifts.   You didn't label the summit lifts as the main lifts.


Maybe because they are the main lifts. Just like M1 is the main lift at Smuggs.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I said I'd be fine with a Fixed Grip triple on Madonna.  Numerous other people in this thread agree with me that they wouldn't want to see much of an increase in capacity if any on Madonna.  I said I'd be fine with Sterling having a HSQ.  Numerous other agreed that that's a good option to.
> 
> Not sure why you wish to keep arguing with me.


Most have said the liftline for M1 is unbearable on weekends. Just like you've complained about the lines for the single at MRG.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

Great dude.  You done arguing?


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 26, 2015)

Just disagreeing. You're not always right you know even though you think so.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Just disagreeing. You're not always right you know even though you think so.



Neither are you old man.  Neither are you


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 27, 2015)

Why not make Sterling and M2 hsq's and shorten the summit lift M1 so it doesn't start at the base. It would shorten the ride time by quite a bit, you wouldn't have to ski the runout, and the lines would probably stay shorter since it would then be more of an experts only lift. The int runs would still be there but it would take two chair rides to ski laps on one of them making it less attractive to use. If the alignment has wind issues maybe realign it into the Free Fall/FIS area (I think that was what they were called but it's been over 20 years since I have skied there). The bottom terminal being somewhere just below where Upper Liftline mellows out into a blue.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2015)

dlague said:


> The problem with Madonna II it does not provide any access to advanced terrain



Perhaps not, but when the snow is good I think lapping Shire into Bermuda on crowded days is a ton of fun.



raisingarizona said:


> Why not make Sterling and M2 hsq's and shorten the summit lift M1 so it doesn't start at the base.



Sterling should be a HSQ.   It's not economically sensible in their plans to make M2 a HSQ, because they dont run it that much as is.  Not sure what you thikn shortening the M1 lift a bit would accomplish though.


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## machski (Aug 27, 2015)

M1 shortened=less lift length=less ride time.  I think that was the thought.


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## dlague (Aug 27, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> Why not make Sterling and M2 hsq's and shorten the summit lift M1 so it doesn't start at the base. It would shorten the ride time by quite a bit, you wouldn't have to ski the runout, and the lines would probably stay shorter since it would then be more of an experts only lift. The int runs would still be there but it would take two chair rides to ski laps on one of them making it less attractive to use. If the alignment has wind issues maybe realign it into the Free Fall/FIS area (I think that was what they were called but it's been over 20 years since I have skied there). The bottom terminal being somewhere just below where Upper Liftline mellows out into a blue.



Shortening M1 is not a bad idea!



BenedictGomez said:


> Perhaps not, but when the snow is good I think lapping Shire into Bermuda on crowded days is a ton of fun.
> 
> Sterling should be a HSQ.   It's not economically sensible in their plans to make M2 a HSQ, because they dont run it that much as is.  Not sure what you thikn shortening the M1 lift a bit would accomplish though.



Without the base of M1 close to the lodge people would be unable to flock to it.  They would have to take the M2 HSQ (considering if that change was made) which would be extended a little further down to where the M1 base terminal used to be.  M1 would not have to be shorten by much but new trails would have to be cut since much of the area on the lower section of the M1 lift line is surrounded by glades.  While many here many do not have issues with skiing through glades there are many many others who would.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2015)

The best lift change at Smuggs would be a chair from the "top" of Morse to the real top.   Never done it, but I've talked to people who hike it, and apparently it's awesome ski terrain.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 27, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> HG & North Lynx = triple chairs, Summit quad at Ellen is well "a quad".  Smuggs all doubles. By the way how many routes are off the top of Mt. Ellen summit with it's quad. Considering not many ski Black Diamond or FIS I count "one" just like they don't ski Liftline or FIS at Smuggs yet Smuggs has two routes. Think they get a little wind up there too being it rises right out of the Champlain Valley. Heavier quad chairs are perfect for that. Guess what happens when that one route off Mt Ellen summit finally does break off into other trails. There's a HSQ unloading at that point dumping more people. Saying Madonna peak can't handle a quad is BS. Besides I didn't say anything about a HSQ. Think it was me who mentioned a carpet loaded fixed grip quad would be ideal. I didn't say anything about a HSQ not working at Sterling either. Would be about time Smuggs installed a high speed lift. The kiddies down at Morse could use one too. There's no excuse for Smuggs except they refuse to invest money into the mountain period.



Most people don't ski FIS at Smuggs? Huh? It probably gets skied more than Drifter not mention it doesn't start from the top (Christmas tree chutes are not part of FIS despite what the trail map says). If you skied there you would probably know that. You sound like someone who has never skied there. The only routes from the top are Chilcoot, Drifter, and Liftline.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 27, 2015)

It's impossible to access the M1 midstation from M2 or Sterling so if they were to shorten it then it wouldn't be by much.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 27, 2015)

There isn't a some what substantial run out at the bottom?


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## raisingarizona (Aug 27, 2015)

It looks like you could knock off at least a third of it on Google Earth. That's a lot of sitting time and extra skiing on the flatter terrain that it sounds like a lot would prefer to skip. We sort of have something similar here at the Snowbowl. I'm not a fan of our top to bottom lift and I wish we had an upper mountain chair and the current chair stopped at midway. It would help on wind hold days and it would better separate the different terrain.

I also added a run to connect Morse and an extension off of Robins. I thought it would be sick if Robins ran that whole section, it would get my vote for one of the gnarliest trails in the east.

Also, I didn't realize this before but you could ski everything off the top and get back to the M1 chair.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 27, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> View attachment 17373
> 
> It looks like you could knock off at least a third of it on Google Earth. That's a lot of sitting time and extra skiing on the flatter terrain that it sounds like a lot would prefer to skip. We sort of have something similar here at the Snowbowl. I'm not a fan of our top to bottom lift and I wish we had an upper mountain chair and the current chair stopped at midway. It would help on wind hold days and it would better separate the different terrain.
> 
> ...



The problem with Robin's is its exposure along with the fact that it is pretty much all ledge. Best time to hit it is after a storm or in the spring. I think your map is good but I would take it offline since one of those locations is maintained and thinned out already. I can fill you in by PM if you want.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 27, 2015)

I recall some overzealous locals cutting a "lower Robins" about 15-20 years ago that was almost as bad as "the gash" on Big Jay and needed to be roped off for regrowth.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 27, 2015)

More like Robin #2 but yea it was bad. Such a horrible spot and it can still be seen from Sterling


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## Tin (Aug 27, 2015)

All ledge, definitely have to have the coverage or youre in deep ...


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## WoodCore (Aug 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I recall some overzealous locals cutting a "lower Robins" about 15-20 years ago that was almost as bad as "the gash" on Big Jay and needed to be roped off for regrowth.



Yup "The Slash" is what I think it was called. It did look appealing from the lift but there were/still are so many better lines right next-door! 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## raisingarizona (Aug 27, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> The problem with Robin's is its exposure along with the fact that it is pretty much all ledge. Best time to hit it is after a storm or in the spring. I think your map is good but I would take it offline since one of those locations is maintained and thinned out already. I can fill you in by PM if you want.



It's just a google earth image and not a map exposing secret stashes. I didn't give up anything other than a silly daydreaming idea. You're the one that gave up the local hush hush knowledge on the internets of something being there! Anyone can pull up this image and if they are browsing this site I'm sure they know how to do that. Now back to the lift idea. It would cut of a substantial amount of riding time, lame runout ski time, and give it the rights to most bad ass lift "pod" in the east. I haven't skied there since 93 but from what I remember it was some of the steepest lift served in the east. No?


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## raisingarizona (Aug 27, 2015)

Tin said:


> All ledge, definitely have to have the coverage or youre in deep ...



And....that's why it's sweet right? Why not continue the fun?


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

You are annoying


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> You are annoying


In his defense, I had no idea that there was a stash until you pointed it out - nor would I have.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

Well the spot below drifter is very well known and was almost added to the trail map so whatever. I take offense to a new guy coming in and not giving two shits.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2015)

I think Highway Star has hacked into MMW's account.  Change your password!


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

I was offering to help the guy out if he took it offline but he had to be the tough guy.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I was offering to help the guy out if he took it offline but he had to be the tough guy.



Help? Ya I'll let you know if I get back east to ski Smuggs again, it's only been 20 years since I last skied out there. I'm not trying to be a "tough" guy, your post was ridiculous. Sorry dude, but it was. You asked me to pull it because of what? It's a google earth image with no directions or anything suggesting of your stash. Then....THEN you go and expain that there is skiing there!!! Come on man, don't be silly.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> You are annoying



I'm completely ok with that. Stop touching yourself.


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 28, 2015)

What's the best place for a ski-off at Smugglers Notch?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2015)

Okay, now he is being annoying.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> What's the best place for a ski-off at Smugglers Notch?



As if we're going to post that NOW?


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> What's the best place for a ski-off at Smugglers Notch?



It will start at the cliff under the Sterling lift. The person who goes first loses.


----------



## dlague (Aug 28, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> As if we're going to post that NOW?



Why not that type of dialog is always good entertainment.  I will go look up some youtube videos and search stuff on Google Earth.  Funny thing - I am actually thinking of following tracks into unmarked glades, video taping them and posting them on AZ.   It is not like people cannot see tracks going into secret stashes.  Many of those young bark eaters follow tracks all the time - my kids did and still do.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

Great follow the tracks all the power to you. But do we really need lines on a map that show people where to go?


----------



## dlague (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Great follow the tracks all the power to you. But do we really need lines on a map that show people where to go?



I will work on that!


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

People can talk about it all they want but do we really need a map with lines on it? Give me a break. I offered to fill the guy in on the location of things if he took down the map. I think that's fair.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2015)

Yeah, I'm all for sharing information in private.   Loosely discussing it in public is fine too.  I'll show pictures of terrain in trip reports, but not discuss how to get there.

Trail maps?

yeah no


----------



## Highway Star (Aug 28, 2015)

Nobody cares about Smugglers Notch.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> People can talk about it all they want but do we really need a map with lines on it? Give me a break. I offered to fill the guy in on the location of things if he took down the map. I think that's fair.



There is no marking of "lines" on the map. I don't want to step on anyones toes or sell out anyones stashes I'm just not going to take it down now on principle. I didn't mark anything to show local lines, it was just a goofy idea because I thought that robins looked really short and there was so much more fall line below it so I made a suggestion to continue the trail. so it didn't mark anything and then you write on the internet that there is a secret stash already there and ask me to pull my picture down because I'm the one telling people about it? Huh? What? Did I miss something because right now I feel confused.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Nobody cares about Smugglers Notch.



Thanks HS I knew I could count on you!


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Nobody cares about Smugglers Notch.



Do the hot Jersey babes drive that far north?


----------



## dlague (Aug 28, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Nobody cares about Smugglers Notch.



That's right the only good secret stashes are at Killington!  Should we start a thread for that?


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> There is no marking of "lines" on the map. I don't want to step on anyones toes or sell out anyones stashes I'm just not going to take it down now on principle. I didn't mark anything to show local lines, it was just a goofy idea because I thought that robins looked really short and there was so much more fall line below it so I made a suggestion to continue the trail. so it didn't mark anything and then you write on the internet that there is a secret stash already there and ask me to pull my picture down because I'm the one telling people about it? Huh? What? Did I miss something because right now I feel confused.



Does anyone else not see lines on this map?


----------



## dlague (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Does anyone else not see lines on this map?



Yes the lines he drew in as proposed new trails - nothing else!


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

And that's why I didn't give the guy a hard time at first and even offered to share information. But there it is for everyone...don't want to hear about it when someone gets cliffed out and loses their skis.....I'm not helping in the search


----------



## ss20 (Aug 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> Yes the lines he drew in as proposed new trails - nothing else!



Exactly!  He drew a trail!  He never said it was a stash!  That was brought up after the fact!  And I thought I was the only one who noticed that.  This thread is almost as nonsensical as the Sugarloaf Snubber HSQ thread.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 28, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> View attachment 17373I also added a run to connect Morse and an extension off of Robins. I thought it would be sick if Robins ran that whole section, it would get my vote for one of the gnarliest trails in the east.





MadMadWorld said:


> I think your map is good but I would take it offline since one of those locations is maintained and thinned out already. I can fill you in by PM if you want.







MadMadWorld said:


> Well the spot below drifter is very well known and was almost added to the trail map so whatever. I take offense to a new guy coming in and not giving two shits.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Exactly!  He drew a trail!  He never said it was a stash!  That was brought up after the fact!  And I thought I was the only one who noticed that.  This thread is almost as nonsensical as the Sugarloaf Snubber HSQ thread.



And this was my original response:


"The problem with Robin's is its exposure along with the fact that it is pretty much all ledge. Best time to hit it is after a storm or in the spring. I think your map is good but I would take it offline since one of those locations is maintained and thinned out already. I can fill you in by PM if you want."

What is rude about that? I will ski off all a y'all gaper clowns as I channel my inner highwaystar


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, I'm all for sharing information in private.   Loosely discussing it in public is fine too.  I'll show pictures of terrain in trip reports, but not discuss how to get there.
> 
> Trail maps?
> 
> yeah no



except for Killington.  Feel Free to make 3D topo maps with GPS coordinates


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> except for Killington.  Feel Free to make 3D topo maps with GPS coordinates



 your 2 biggest fans are going to be very angry


----------



## ss20 (Aug 28, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> View attachment 17373
> 
> It looks like you could knock off at least a third of it on Google Earth. That's a lot of sitting time and extra skiing on the flatter terrain that it sounds like a lot would prefer to skip. We sort of have something similar here at the Snowbowl. I'm not a fan of our top to bottom lift and I wish we had an upper mountain chair and the current chair stopped at midway. It would help on wind hold days and it would better separate the different terrain.
> 
> ...





MadMadWorld said:


> And this was my original response:
> 
> 
> "The problem with Robin's is its exposure along with the fact that it is pretty much all ledge. Best time to hit it is after a storm or in the spring. I think your map is good but I would take it offline since one of those locations is maintained and thinned out already. I can fill you in by PM if you want."
> ...



That's the first mention of a stash in that location in this thread.  You brought it up and then berated the OP because of that map.  No one would've know there was a stash there if you hadn't said anything!!!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> Why not that type of dialog is always good entertainment.  I will go look up some youtube videos and search stuff on Google Earth.  Funny thing - I am actually thinking of following tracks into unmarked glades, video taping them and posting them on AZ.   It is not like people cannot see tracks going into secret stashes.  Many of those young bark eaters follow tracks all the time - my kids did and still do.



My opinion on this subject is well-known given how often it comes up, but it boils down to this:

_*Your secret stash is not a secret.*

_There's no empirical way to know for certain, but I'm pretty sure only about 2% of "secret stashes" are actually (somewhat) secret.  

Ironically enough, I actually do know of one at Smuggler's Notch.  Powder day + 2, and no tracks.  Now THAT qualifies as a secret stash.    

The downside?  It's an absolute *&$^# to enter, which I suspect is the hallmark of all legitimate secret stashes.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

No one is saying any of the spots are a secret as I mentioned in one of my posts. But as DHS mentioned, do we need a map? It was an accident and that is how I addressed it. And folks clearly are having a difficult time wrapping their head around the fact that I offered to provide details in private. Just was hoping the map would be taken down.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

Shortened M1 lift idea. I tried to remove the other photo for you but I can't figure out how to do that. Hopefully the mods will help me out with that. Happy? You win the internets today.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2015)

I haven't skied Smuggs in years, and I had no knowledge of any secret stashes.  I looked at the map.  It depicted a couple of proposed trails and that is all.  Not for one single second did I think that it was useful to find a secret stash.  The ONLY time that thought entered my head was when MadMadWorld TOLD me that it did. 

If you want to talk about who spilled the beans, at least be honest.

And I agree with BG: The overwhelming likelihood is that your stash is not secret.  This one especially sounds like it is not even close to being secret.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I haven't skied Smuggs in years, and I had no knowledge of any secret stashes.  I looked at the map.  It depicted a couple of proposed trails and that is all.  Not for one single second did I think that it was useful to find a secret stash.  The ONLY time that thought entered my head was when MadMadWorld TOLD me that it did.
> 
> If you want to talk about who spilled the beans, at least be honest.
> 
> And I agree with BG: The overwhelming likelihood is that your stash is not secret.  This one especially sounds like it is not even close to being secret.



Seriously....??? Your lack of reading comprehension gives me a migraine. When you take a second to read through the thread let me know. Until then, go back to your political discussions.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Seriously....??? Your lack of reading comprehension gives me a migraine. When you take a second to read through the thread let me know. Until then, go back to your political discussions.


Someday you'll have to tell me what it is like to be infallible.

In all seriousness, I went back and re-read the thread in order to give you the benefit of the doubt.  My opinion is stronger than it ever was.  You are the one who spilled the beans.

If you have evidence to the contrary, then point it out.  Seriously.  I'm not afraid of actual evidence.  But in the meantime you need something more than, "You're stupid!"  I'd like to think that you have the capacity to make an actual argument, but I'm starting to wonder.


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## cdskier (Aug 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I haven't skied Smuggs in years, and I had no knowledge of any secret stashes.  I looked at the map.  It depicted a couple of proposed trails and that is all.  Not for one single second did I think that it was useful to find a secret stash.  The ONLY time that thought entered my head was when MadMadWorld TOLD me that it did.
> 
> If you want to talk about who spilled the beans, at least be honest.
> 
> And I agree with BG: The overwhelming likelihood is that your stash is not secret.  This one especially sounds like it is not even close to being secret.



My interpretation when I first read this thread and saw that picture was exactly the same as this. Maybe I should start posting maps of Sugarbush with random trail ideas to see if anyone complains so I can then know exactly where the "secrets" are!


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## ss20 (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Seriously....??? Your lack of reading comprehension gives me a migraine. When you take a second to read through the thread let me know. Until then, go back to your political discussions.



This just keeps getting better.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2015)

Don't stop! I'll be right back with my popcorn!


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## joshua segal (Aug 28, 2015)

Given the length of the FG chairs at Smugglers', I wonder if someone could comment on the ride up on a cold and windy January day.  The days I've skied there were March and later, so I was neither fighting the crowd, nor the cold.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Someday you'll have to tell me what it is like to be infallible.
> 
> In all seriousness, I went back and re-read the thread in order to give you the benefit of the doubt.  My opinion is stronger than it ever was.  You are the one who spilled the beans.
> 
> If you have evidence to the contrary, then point it out.  Seriously.  I'm not afraid of actual evidence.  But in the meantime you need something more than, "You're stupid!"  I'd like to think that you have the capacity to make an actual argument, but I'm starting to wonder.



I went back and rethought my preconceived notions of folks from VT to give you the benefit of the doubt but my opinion is stronger than ever......

Ski off?????


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

cdskier said:


> My interpretation when I first read this thread and saw that picture was exactly the same as this. Maybe I should start posting maps of Sugarbush with random trail ideas to see if anyone complains so I can then know exactly where the "secrets" are!



What is VTKILARNEY's home mountain....Burke or Jay? I don't know shit about Burke but I could venture a few guesses.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Given the length of the FG chairs at Smugglers', I wonder if someone could comment on the ride up on a cold and windy January day.  The days I've skied there were March and later, so I was neither fighting the crowd, nor the cold.



It can be brutal for sure.  I think a bigger problem than the lifts on such days is the lodge.  It can get a wee bit cozy on those days.

In fact, prior to lift improvements, I'd suggest an expanded Madonna lodge is needed to improve the overall skiing experience.


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2015)

Thought I clicked on TGR for a second or 2.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I went back and rethought my preconceived notions of folks from VT to give you the benefit of the doubt but my opinion is stronger than ever......
> 
> Ski off?????



I asked for a fact and you still can't come with a single one to support your ludicrous claim.  Nuff said.  


.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I asked for a fact and you still can't come with a single one to support your ludicrous claim.  Nuff said.
> 
> 
> .



You are completing missing the point so I'll try and dumb it down to your level. Said map was added describing a great place for additional terrain. My intention was to prevent random lurkers from seeing the map and doing exploring in that area. What you can't seem to grasp is the fact that I was never trying to keep it a secret from folks on this board. Which is why I offered to take the discussion off the thread. Every person on this board who has skied with me can attest to the fact that I enjoy showing people around and sharing my knowledge so GTFOOH!


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> You are completing missing the point so I'll try and dumb it down to your level. Said map was added describing a great place for additional terrain. My intention was to prevent random lurkers from seeing the map and doing exploring in that area. What you can't seem to grasp is the fact that I was never trying to keep it a secret from folks on this board. Which is why I offered to take the discussion off the thread. Every person on this board who has skied with me can attest to the fact that I enjoy showing people around and sharing my knowledge so GTFOOH!



Ahh...  Your explanation makes perfect sense.  You were afraid that random people looking at a map of a proposed trail would see it as something it wasn't advertised as - a route marker to stashes.  So to avoid those random people associating the map with stashes, you announced that the map showed stashes.  

Thanks for the clarification.  If that was indeed your point I can see now why it was lost on me.


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## ss20 (Aug 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ahh...  Your explanation makes perfect sense.  You were afraid that random people looking at a map of a proposed trail would see it as something it wasn't advertised as - a route marker to stashes.  So to avoid those random people associating the map with stashes, you announced that the map showed stashes.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.  If that was indeed your point I can see now why it was last on me.  &#55357;&#56883;



:lol:


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## steamboat1 (Aug 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> except for Killington.  Feel Free to make 3D topo maps with GPS coordinates





MadMadWorld said:


> your 2 biggest fans are going to be very angry


Couldn't care less what either of you say.

Smuggs is to cheap to put a quad anywhere on the mountain.

End of story.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ahh...  Your explanation makes perfect sense.  You were afraid that random people looking at a map of a proposed trail would see it as something it wasn't advertised as - a route marker to stashes.  So to avoid those random people associating the map with stashes, you announced that the map showed stashes.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.  If that was indeed your point I can see now why it was lost on me.



You silly Italians


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## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> You silly Italians



Awesome comeback to refute the actual facts I gave.  I guess this proves that you were correct. Oh... Wait...  It just proves that you have bigoted tendencies too.


.


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## Brad J (Aug 29, 2015)

I have only been to Smuggs once and that was last year. It was in March after a freeze thaw so mostly very firm which wasn't Ideal, but the doubles and the old lodge add to the charm of the place not a negative IMO. When you put a high speed lift in with additional capacity you are going to ruin a lot of the skiing experience. I know people that grew up there and go there regularly and the never talk about the lifts, all they talk about is the skiing experience ,woods mostly. If you want something different you have few choices, and Smuggs is different with a good vibe.


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## MadMadWorld (Aug 29, 2015)

Brad J said:


> I have only been to Smuggs once and that was last year. It was in March after a freeze thaw so mostly very firm which wasn't Ideal, but the doubles and the old lodge add to the charm of the place not a negative IMO. When you put a high speed lift in with additional capacity you are going to ruin a lot of the skiing experience. I know people that grew up there and go there regularly and the never talk about the lifts, all they talk about is the skiing experience ,woods mostly. If you want something different you have few choices, and Smuggs is different with a good vibe.



Exactly


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## raisingarizona (Aug 29, 2015)

Well this sure has been fun. Reminds me a little of this.....


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Your explanation makes perfect sense.  You were afraid that random people looking at a map of a proposed trail would see it as something it wasn't advertised as - a route marker to stashes.  So to avoid those random people associating the map with stashes, you announced that the map showed stashes.


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