# Woul MRG benefit from another chairlift?



## skiNEwhere (Nov 12, 2012)

Don't crucify me here!!!!! But I think this is a good point. As most of us know, there can be some really bad lines on big pow days, with the wait in the line, plus the ride up, you'll be lucky if you get in a run an hour.

What if MRG added a double or triple from the bottom of Paradise to the summit? 

Before you chew me out, hear my reasoning:
1. Some people avoid MRG on a pow day because the line for the single is so bad. Less lines equals more revenue
2. Nobody ever gets off at the mid-station
3. And honestly, answer yourself this. Have you ever seen MRG overskied? So why not?

Some possible reason's I know that will be brought out:
1. It will destroy it's "character"
2. It will be overskied
3. The Co-OP would never consider it
4. MRG's Co-op is so fragile it would never be able to afford it, I mean it had enough trouble getting financing for the single re-furb
5. MRG could care less about revenue

Before you set out to hunt me down, please put down your torches and pitchforks and think this out.


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2012)

Powder weekdays really are not that crowded. I have only had 10 minute wait weekdays at most. Weekend different story.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 12, 2012)

The only thing I've suggested in the past is maybe converting the Sunnyside Double to a Triple.  Though never as bad as the Single, the Double can still get pretty backed up on the weekends if conditions are good.  I know I've been there where the options are waiting 15 minutes for the double vs. 30 for the single.  I end up opting for the Single as it's worth the extra wait.  Now, if the line at the Sunnyside was say 5-10 minutes, I'd be inclined to do more skiing over there. 

I think having a bit more capacity on the Sunnyside would siphon a bit of the traffic away from the single.

I'd be against an additional summit lift.


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## Nick (Nov 12, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> Don't crucify me here!!!!! But I think this is a good point. As most of us know, there can be some really bad lines on big pow days, with the wait in the line, plus the ride up, you'll be lucky if you get in a run an hour.



When I hit MRG last year for the first time, I skied for I think over 7 hours, and got in a total of I believe 6 or 7 runs, which is significantly less than I typically run. Of course, a lot of bushwhacking was involved; but the lift line was a part of it. 

My biggest impression (being that almost all my other ski days have been at bigger places ... Cannon, Killington, even Wachusett)... was that the mountain always seemed and felt empty, primarily because of the limited uphill capacity. 

That said, I do think they could add some uphill capacity and the mountain would still feel pretty empty. Even if (gasp!) the single were converted to a double, effectively doubling the uphill capacity. I absolutely don't think they should put more than that up. 

Alternative: change to a high speed detachable single 8)


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

A new lift wouldn't do anything to increase revenue & would destroy the historical character of the mountain. If you are not aware MRG has only a limited amount of parking. They don't own any additional land where they could add parking. As it is right now cars park a 1/2 mile down the side of the road either uphill or downhill from the base area on busy weekends. If you don't like the lift lines on busy weekends go somewhere else. I like MRG just the way it is.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 12, 2012)

yea, you're right, I forgot about the parking. 

LOL Nick, I think MRG would be the only resort in the world with a high speed single. 

I feel that Arapahoe Basin used to be the "MRG of the west" and they've expanded in the last few years and converted a couple of lifts over and still keep that "old time" feel, at least for me.

One big bonus to add a lift at the bottom of paradise is that skiers from the sunnyside double would be able to reach the summit.


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## Nick (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah I'm not in favor of it changing either. It gets asked every year in the AZ Challenge but that single is going nowhere fast. :lol: 

And I'm fine with that. On going to guess that on a good snow day, you can do run after run and still uncover hidden stashes across the slopes.


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## JimG. (Nov 12, 2012)

NO!


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## AdironRider (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Powder weekdays really are not that crowded. I have only had 10 minute wait weekdays at most. Weekend different story.



10 minute waits for a midweek powday is pretty bad IMO.


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> 10 minute waits for a midweek powday is pretty bad IMO.



Then go somewhere else. Are you a snowboarder? If so who cares what you think about MRG?


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## marcski (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> A new lift wouldn't do anything to increase revenue & would destroy the historical character of the mountain. If you are not aware MRG has only a limited amount of parking. They don't own any additional land where they could add parking. As it is right now cars park a 1/2 mile down the side of the road either uphill or downhill from the base area on busy weekends. If you don't like the lift lines on busy weekends go somewhere else. I like MRG just the way it is.



+1


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## billski (Nov 12, 2012)

Steamboat1 said it all.  "benefit" is in the eye of the beholder.  Go to Stratton, more real estate would "benefit" the area.  U love the solitary feeling.  I always feel like I'm in a magical land up on top.


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## Cannonball (Nov 12, 2012)

If long lines are the concern there are cheaper ways to solve it than installing a new lift.  For example they could exclude women, children, skis less that 100underfoot, uncool ski brands, unbearded men, cat owners, and out-of-staters.  It would be in keeping with the 'aesthetic' and cut down on crowds at the same time.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Then go somewhere else. Are you a snowboarder? If so who cares what you think about MRG?



Really?  So snowboarders can't comment on lift queue times?

Did day light savings time knock the clocks back 15 years of something?


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

dmc said:


> Really?  So snowboarders can't comment on lift queue times?
> 
> Did day light savings time knock the clocks back 15 years of something?


How would a snowboarder know anything about MRG. They're not allowed there so how would they know anything about the place besides what they've read. That's why they're not qualified to respond.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Nov 12, 2012)

get skins


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## riverc0il (Nov 12, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> Before you chew me out, hear my reasoning:
> 1. Some people avoid MRG on a pow day because the line for the single is so bad. Less lines equals more revenue
> 2. Nobody ever gets off at the mid-station
> 3. And honestly, answer yourself this. Have you ever seen MRG overskied? So why not?


Preserving the culture and character of the mountain will always be more important than revenue. Wait in line on a powder day or busy weekend or ski somewhere else. Or ski MRG when it is _not a powder day_. What a novel concept, eh? Single lines aren't too bad when conditions are not at their best.

Limited uphill capacity keeps downhill traffic to a minimum so you can enjoy the mountain without it being crowded. If you increase the uphill capacity, then you increase the downhill capacity. When the Single was refurbished, replacing it with a Double chair was considered and was shot down. We don't need increased capacity at MRG. Personally, I am happy to wait in the Single line for a ski from the top.

The mid-station isn't for getting off, it is more meant for getting back on. You can lap the upper mountain using the mid-station during the week or even very early on a weekend. I can usually get two or three laps from the mid-station even on a powder day if you get there for first chair.

I see MRG over skied every powder day. The powder (on piste) doesn't last too long even with the limited uphill capacity. Get there earlier, ski later, or don't ski on a powder day. Even on a powder day, the Single doesn't back up badly for three runs and then you can move to the Double until later in the afternoon when others start leaving and the line decreases.

It really saddens me to see the Single line come up so often as a hot topic because more often than not, the line isn't long (comparatively to how people complaining about lines at MRG normally cite line times of the rare 40 minute examples). But people inform themselves based on their experiences on powder days or busy weekends. Even on said days, you can get a half dozen Single runs in a day without waiting more than 5-10 minutes tops if you get there early and stay late.

My opinion? I think rates should be raised on weekends and powder days to both increase revenues and control the worst of the lines. Just my take on it, probably not a popular opinion.

--

And full disclosure, if I have to wait more than 10 minutes for a line at any other mountain, I'm not particularly impressed with my decision on where to ski. So I am no fan of lines. But for MRG... 10 minutes is a fine time to wait for the best chairlift in the world. And more than that on a busy day? I could care less otherwise I wouldn't have gone there.


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> How would a snowboarder know anything about MRG. They're not allowed there so how would they know anything about the place besides what they've read. That's why they're not qualified to respond.



Bingo


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## Nick (Nov 12, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> The mid-station isn't for getting off, it is more meant for getting back on. You can lap the upper mountain using the mid-station during the week or even very early on a weekend. I can usually get two or three laps from the mid-station even on a powder day if you get there for first chair.



How often is there an empty chair where you can actually sneak on? Serious question.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> How would a snowboarder know anything about MRG. They're not allowed there so how would they know anything about the place besides what they've read. That's why they're not qualified to respond.



The response was about lift line waits not specific to MRG...

I think we know about lift line waits..   And I more than most since I ski and tele too..    I've seen the lines at MRG and they suck..


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Bingo



Again... The comment was about lift line waits - NOT specific to MRG...


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2012)

This thread is about MRG and I was speaking of a 10 minute wait at MRG. I have waited in lines at other areas much longer.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

So 10 minutes at MRG is different from 10 minutes somewhere else??
Does Einstein know about this magical theory?

All he said was - 


AdironRider said:


> 10 minute waits for a midweek powday is pretty bad IMO.



Are we snowboarders banned from participating in anything MRG?  Cause I didn't get the memo.....


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

dmc said:


> The response was about lift line waits not specific to MRG...
> 
> I think we know about lift line waits..   And I more than most since I ski and tele too..    I've seen the lines at MRG and they suck..


So ski somewhere else if you don't like it. All I know is long lift lines or not that mountain always beats me up. Can't say the same for alot of other mountains even if I can do laps on high speed lifts all day.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> So ski somewhere else if you don't like it. All I know is long lift lines or not that mountain always beats me up. Can't say the same for alot of other mountains even if I can do laps on high speed lifts all day.



WTF are you talking about... I never said I didn't like MRG. 

I've skied and tele'd there..  It's an awesome place..
And I've waited 20 minutes for that single chair before... Longer at Telefest...

Just defending a fellow rider getting piled on for expressing an opinion..


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

dmc said:


> Did day light savings time knock the clocks back 15 years of something?


You want to know something? The lines were just as long 15 years ago. I kinda miss the old wooden lift line corral.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> You want to know something? The lines were just as long 15 years ago. I kinda miss the old wooden lift line corral.



Was referring to something else...  nevermind...


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

Nick said:


> How often is there an empty chair where you can actually sneak on? Serious question.


During the week or non crowded weekends there are quite a few empty chairs going up. Of course on crowded powder days or weekends there are not. There are people that get off at the mid station. With the exception of upper antelope (intermediate) there are no easy ways off the top of the single. If you get off at the mid station there are beginner ways to get down.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 12, 2012)

this is an exercise in futility since if the coop had any intention of adding lift capacity they wouldnt have put in a new single.
that being said, i'm in the mrv every weekend and holiday and find it difficult to justify going to MRG.  I dont want to spend the money when the conditions arent good and when they are good, I dont want to deal with the single line when I can be doing laps on similar terrain for free at SB.  So I only end up going 1-2x/ year.


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## AdironRider (Nov 12, 2012)

Nothing like the MRG halo effect! 

10 minute lift lines = automatic bitching anywhere else. Bring it up concerning MRG and you're the asshole.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Nothing like the MRG halo effect!
> 
> 10 minute lift lines = automatic bitching anywhere else. Bring it up concerning MRG and you're the asshole.



Big difference between MRG & most other ski areas. Long lift lines at most other ski areas also equates to congested trails. At MRG it doesn't.


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## AdironRider (Nov 12, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Big difference between MRG & most other ski areas. Long lift lines at most other ski areas also equates to congested trails. At MRG it doesn't.



Right, stack that deck bro.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Nothing like the MRG halo effect!
> 
> 10 minute lift lines = automatic bitching anywhere else. Bring it up concerning MRG and you're the asshole.



Your not an ahole because you bitched about MRG lift lines..
Your an ahole because you snowboard and you apparently have no right to do so....


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2012)

dmc said:


> Your not an ahole because you bitched about MRG lift lines..
> Your an ahole because you snowboard and you apparently have no right to do so....



You can snowboard anywhere you want but you can not ride the lift with a sb at Mad river glen. 10 min lines anywhere are not that bad on a weekend. Bad is 20 mins which I have been in at just about every "big" area on a weekend. Once at Jay I got stuck in line for over 30 minutes for the Jet and when the bona was down and the t wasn't running either. Now that sucked.


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## ScottySkis (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> You can snowboard anywhere you want but you can not ride the lift with a sb at Mad river glen. 10 min lines anywhere are not that bad on a weekend. Bad is 20 mins which I have been in at just about every "big" area on a weekend. Once at Jay I got stuck in line for over 30 minutes for the Jet and when the bona was down and the t wasn't running either. Now that sucked.





I never skiied at Mad River but the difference probably is that at the other hills with long lines is you can usually avoid them by staying on upper part of the hill or using other lifts but you can not do that at Mad unless you use the beginner chair.


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## riverc0il (Nov 12, 2012)

Nick said:


> How often is there an empty chair where you can actually sneak on? Serious question.


If you get there for first chair, most mornings you can get at least two mid-station runs. You might have to wait a dozen chairs each time. During the week, you can cycle a lot longer. Pent up demand powder day... probably 1 at best. But I've done as many as 3 mid-station cycles on a non-powder day Saturday before without waiting more than a dozen chairs.


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## JimG. (Nov 12, 2012)

Not getting into the anti-snowboarder vibe in this thread.

Explain why they can't comment on long lift lines. You make it sound like most other areas ban snowboarders too so they can't possibly know what waiting on one is like. You guys living in a time warp?


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## mlkrgr (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Then go somewhere else. Are you a snowboarder? If so who cares what you think about MRG?



I'm a skier that most often likes to go to the mountain with a group. MRG's snowboard ban still makes it so that it is very tough to get there. Not only they eliminate the snowboard market, they eliminate a good portion of the market for skier visits (probably 20-30% once you consider bus groups and smaller groups that have a snowboarder in them and go elsewhere to accommodate them). On top of that, you have all the people that would otherwise go elsewhere to avoid lines and it is pretty safe to say that MRG accommodates only a small niche of skiers.


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> You can snowboard anywhere you want but you can not ride the lift with a sb at Mad river glen.



Well - umm...  thank you...

So...
It's OK to comment on how you feel about a 10 minute line on a powder day...   That's all he really did.  

It's not such a bad broad statement and can be applied to ANY place on a powder day.   
_I really hate it when I ski/snowboard/tele at *XXXXXX *and have to wait 10 minutes in a lift line on a powder day....   
_


I personally don't want to wait at all - for anything - or anyone - on a powder day..
There are no friends on a powder day.  right?


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## dmc (Nov 12, 2012)

JimG. said:


> You guys living in a time warp?



It's just a jump to the left and then a step to the riiiight...
Put your hands on your hips and bring your knees in tiiight.. 


... almost sounds like bump skiing...


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 12, 2012)

I am curious as to how much the addition of the college and the Four20 groups with the new Bush/MRG cheap combo pass will impact the wait.


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## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2012)

mlkrgr said:


> I'm a skier that most often likes to go to the mountain with a group. MRG's snowboard ban still makes it so that it is very tough to get there. Not only they eliminate the snowboard market, they eliminate a good portion of the market for skier visits (probably 20-30% once you consider bus groups and smaller groups that have a snowboarder in them and go elsewhere to accommodate them). On top of that, you have all the people that would otherwise go elsewhere to avoid lines and it is pretty safe to say that MRG accommodates only a small niche of skiers.



And they are fine with that and so am I because it keeps the lines from getting any longer then they already are on certain days. Their business plan is what it is and if they think they are getting by with it then who is to fault them. I have no care if they are making money hand over fist or making just enough to survive. My care is the product that is produced and the price of that product.


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## David Metsky (Nov 13, 2012)

To answer the original question, no, a new lift as proposed would not serve MRG's interests.  There's no real desire to get more people up to the top of the mountain.  The business model includes the impact of long lift lines - the fact that you'll see people waiting in 20-40 minute lines for the Single is an indication that they value the product enough to wait.  Part of the appeal is the scarcity; MRG won't survive if it's just like the other options in the area. 

The parking situation is much more of a limit than the uphill capacity anyway.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 13, 2012)

I actually have no plans to return to MRG after my last experience there waiting for 30+ mins in every line for the single chair. I don't know how many runs I got that day but it was significantly less than average.

To spend 6 hours driving in a day to be able to get 10 or less runs in is rediculous. Worth it for the experience of skiing the place. Don't get me wrong, the terrain served off the top of the single chair is among the best I've skied. But in terms of repeat value, not there. Sugarbush has pretty much just as good terrain if you know the way around the mountain and I can get a real day of skiing in there.

The parking situation is also total chaos.

I fully understand the appeal of keeping things the way they have been and the ski area will do well drawing regular local customers who may not care if they can't get a ton of runs in on every day of skiing because they are able to go there more often. But to make a long journey to MRG and realize you're going to be parking way up the road and waiting in line over half an hour to get to the top of the mountain is a real disappointment.

If I do return I will make sure it's a week day and not a fresh powder day or any other time when I expect there could be crowds. Weekends or pow days I can just go to Mt. Ellen and spend the whole day on my skis for an even cheaper lift ticket. If anyone thinks you can't have a reasonable lift capacity and still maintain a classic skiing experience I think the ski area next door proves that does not have to be true.


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## Breakout12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Scotty said:


> *I never skiied at Mad River* but the difference probably is that at the other hills with long lines is you can usually avoid them by staying on upper part of the hill or using other lifts but you can not do that at Mad unless you use the beginner chair.



Sorry Scotty, but it's already been established that if you don't ski there, you're not allowed to comment on it.  Or does that only hold for boarders? ;P

I understand that more uphill capacity will increase the number of people on the hill, but are people saying that it's a perfect balance now, that it's already reached saturation?


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 13, 2012)

On a day with 30+ minute waits I never saw anyone else on Fall Line or Paradise and only came across a few other people the whole way down Antelope. It was also three days after a huge dump and there were still freshies all over.

So I'm gonna say the mountain could easily handle more traffic.


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## JimG. (Nov 13, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> Sorry Scotty, but it's already been established that if you don't ski there, you're not allowed to comment on it.  Or does that only hold for boarders? ;P
> 
> I understand that more uphill capacity will increase the number of people on the hill, but are people saying that it's a perfect balance now, that it's already reached saturation?



The fact that it's nowhere near saturation is what makes MRG attractive. You can ski lines in the woods T2B and never see another soul on the way down. You can in fact ski trails there and not see another soul.

It's the ultimate example of QUALITY over quantity. While I may not agree with some of the co-op's policies, I can't say I don't love the place for that aspect.


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## JimG. (Nov 13, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> On a day with 30+ minute waits I never saw anyone else on Fall Line or Paradise and only came across a few other people the whole way down Antelope. It was also three days after a huge dump and there were still freshies all over.



See my post below...you just made an eloquent argument for keeping the place exactly the way it is.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 13, 2012)

JimG. said:


> See my post below...you just made an eloquent argument for keeping the place exactly the way it is.



You could look at this either way. Some people like the trails scarce, others don't mind. Personally, I don't mind, in fact, Godforbid if I break my leg in glades I'd hope that people are coming through.

Breakout is asking if there is a perfect balance right now, and I say no. Not even close. 

You could add another lift and still not worry about saturation. But I already know it will never happen, at least not under the co-op


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## steamboat1 (Nov 13, 2012)

Why isn't anyone complaining about the Castle Rock chair at Sugarbush?

Pretty much the same deal as the single at MRG.


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## wa-loaf (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> A new lift wouldn't do anything to increase revenue & would destroy the historical character of the mountain. If you are not aware MRG has only a limited amount of parking. They don't own any additional land where they could add parking. As it is right now cars park a 1/2 mile down the side of the road either uphill or downhill from the base area on busy weekends. If you don't like the lift lines on busy weekends go somewhere else. I like MRG just the way it is.



Build an underground parking garage with a lot to base gondola!


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Why isn't anyone complaining about the Castle Rock chair at Sugarbush?
> 
> Pretty much the same deal as the single at MRG.



People do complain about Castlerock lines but I've never seen a line at Castlerock even half as bad as what seems to be standard fare at the single chair.

Also there's sick terrain accessible from Heaven's Gate so it's not like you have to ride Castlerock all day long.

Don't get me wrong I love trails with low traffic and powder spots but what's the point if you're spending literally half your day waiting in the lift line. I've only been to MRG 3 times and maybe I got unlucky in terms of the lines but it sure looks like this is a regular issue there at least on weekends.


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## Breakout12 (Nov 13, 2012)

JimG. said:


> See my post below...you just made an eloquent argument for keeping the place exactly the way it is.



Or to avoid it out of frustration.  As I am not local, and have to carefully choose my vaction destinations, I know that it has now moved down my list.  The parking situation didn't help, either.  I'm sure some of you are thinking "No problem, we won't miss you", but it's a shame to me, as I was hoping to ski it someday.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 13, 2012)

It's worth it especially if you're going to VT for multiple days. MRG terrain lives up to and exceeds everything you've heard about it.

But as a place to go frequently it's a different story for the reasons discussed.


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## farlep99 (Nov 13, 2012)

As stated before MRG is all about quality vs. quantity.  I'll take quality over quantity any day.  If that means skiing 6-7 great runs at MRG instead of 15 runs elsewhere, then so be it.  I love the empty trails & solitude of skiing MRG.  I will say if I were more of a hard charger like my teen/early 20's days, I'd maybe feel differently.

To answer the OP's question of would MRG benefit then I say no way.  There are a multitude of reasons: I doubt many would say they should replace the single chair (and you could argue they should, but they won't).  So that's out.

If you're talking about installing a new lift, you're talking about clearing more trees for the lift line.  No thanks.  

If, as suggested before, you're talking about replacing the current double with a triple chair then I guess that's ok, but I doubt it would effect the uphill capacity significantly enough to make a big difference (on most days).  And I dont' think it would benefit MRG financially to do this anyway.

As others have mentioned with parking, etc, I just don't see how MRG benefits in any way with new/changed lifts.


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## Cannonball (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Why isn't anyone complaining about the Castle Rock chair at Sugarbush?



Probably because this is a thread about MRG.

But since you mentioned it... The line at Castlerock can suck.  However, I will occasionally tolerate it to get to the goods.  I never tolerate the single line at MRG.


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## David Metsky (Nov 13, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> Or to avoid it out of frustration.


No one goes to MRG anymore, it's too crowded.


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## Cannonball (Nov 13, 2012)

farlep99 said:


> As others have mentioned with parking, etc, I just don't see how MRG benefits in any way with new/changed lifts.



If MRG skiers love being solitary on the chair so much, then perhaps they love being solitary in their cars too?  Maybe a double or triple chair would encourage car-pooling and wouldn't impact the parking that much.  Just say'n....


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## Watatic Skier (Nov 13, 2012)

Only way I could see them adding another lift is putting a Poma up chute, which would require a lot of snowcover and would not be a very easy ride (not that that's bad).  Would probably block off a lot of entrances into the trees too.


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## Breakout12 (Nov 13, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's worth it especially if you're going to VT for multiple days. MRG terrain lives up to and exceeds everything you've heard about it.
> 
> But as a place to go frequently it's a different story for the reasons discussed.



I believe you!  It's not off my list, but I'd need to prioritize.  It's a balancing act - finding the best terrain with trail saturation and a lift scene that I can live with.  30+ minute wait?  No way.  Whatever.  I'm sure that some day I'll suck it up and check it out regardless.  It's an experience that I want to have.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 13, 2012)

Since the cooperative took over in 1995 they've been able to pay off their mortgage, install a new double chair and install a new single chair that was custom made at a greatly added expense. The area remains profitable even in lean snow years. I think they have a pretty good business model.

Ski It If You Can.


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## riverc0il (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Why isn't anyone complaining about the Castle Rock chair at Sugarbush?
> 
> Pretty much the same deal as the single at MRG.


Really good point. Bush also did the same things as MRG with the Single... they could have easily increased uphill capacity but bent over backwards to make the replacement lift handle the same capacity by doubling the space between standard chair spacing, effectively cutting the uphill capacity of the new lift in half compared to a standard new double.


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## riverc0il (Nov 13, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> If MRG skiers love being solitary on the chair so much, then perhaps they love being solitary in their cars too?  Maybe a double or triple chair would encourage car-pooling and wouldn't impact the parking that much.  Just say'n....


Interestingly enough, MRG launched a ride share program a few years ago. You could go to the MRG web site and post either that you wanted to ride or wanted to offer a ride on certain days. I don't think it was used much, I don't think it is even still there. But they did try that...

Not speaking in any official capacity here, but having been to shareholder meetings, I do know that the parking situation is a huge concern for the coop and its management. I don't think there are any immediate plans to resolve the issue but it is definitely something that is a known issue and one that needs to be addressed.


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> The area remains profitable even in lean snow years.


I don't know where this notion comes from, a lot of people seem to have it. MRG struggles in bad years just like any other area. The coop is actively seeking new shareholders who want to contribute to being a part of sustaining the area and be part of the MRG community. I get concerned when I see this notion because it might dissuade potential new shareholders. Lean years effect MRG negatively more so than other areas because of the incorrect notion that MRG is only good after it snows. MRG can't attract skiers when the weather is bad and only snow making and grooming trails are skiing well in the region. There is currently a plan to developing to commence major refurbishment of the base area at considerable cost. There is no time like now if anyone is considering becoming a shareholder!


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 13, 2012)

Are you a shareholder rivercoil? If you are I have a few questions


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 13, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Really good point. Bush also did the same things as MRG with the Single... they could have easily increased uphill capacity but bent over backwards to make the replacement lift handle the same capacity by doubling the space between standard chair spacing, effectively cutting the uphill capacity of the new lift in half compared to a standard new double.


You can see how far apart the chairs are spaced in this picture of the Castle Rock chair


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 13, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I don't know where this notion comes from, a lot of people seem to have it. MRG struggles in bad years just like any other area. The coop is actively seeking new shareholders who want to contribute to being a part of sustaining the area and be part of the MRG community. I get concerned when I see this notion because it might dissuade potential new shareholders. Lean years effect MRG negatively more so than other areas because of the incorrect notion that MRG is only good after it snows. MRG can't attract skiers when the weather is bad and only snow making and grooming trails are skiing well in the region. There is currently a plan to developing to commence major refurbishment of the base area at considerable cost. There is no time like now if anyone is considering becoming a shareholder!




So a ski area that refuses to adapt to current market conditions, struggles financially, and needs major capital infusions... 

Well consider me sold.


----------



## Cannonball (Nov 13, 2012)

Some shareholders think it's important NOT to change (I tend to agree with niche marketing being MRG's primary draw)....


David Metsky said:


> There's no real desire to get more people up to the top of the mountain.  The business model includes the impact of long lift lines - the fact that you'll see people waiting in 20-40 minute lines for the Single is an indication that they value the product enough to wait.  Part of the appeal is the scarcity; MRG won't survive if it's just like the other options in the area.



Some Shareholders are old and wealthy enough to afford their perspective (sorry about the election last week).....


farlep99 said:


> I will say if I were more of a hard charger like my teen/early 20's days, I'd maybe feel differently.



Some shareholders understand the reality of the situation and look to the future (minority stock sucks)...


riverc0il said:


> I don't know where this notion comes from, a lot of people seem to have it. MRG struggles in bad years just like any other area. The coop is actively seeking new shareholders who want to contribute to being a part of sustaining the area and be part of the MRG community. I get concerned when I see this notion because it might dissuade potential new shareholders. Lean years effect MRG negatively more so than other areas because of the incorrect notion that MRG is only good after it snows. MRG can't attract skiers when the weather is bad and only snow making and grooming trails are skiing well in the region. There is currently a plan to developing to commence major refurbishment of the base area at considerable cost. There is no time like now if anyone is considering becoming a shareholder!



So the reality for now is....


AdironRider said:


> So a ski area that refuses to adapt to current market conditions, struggles financially, and needs major capital infusions...
> 
> Well consider me sold.



Ski it if you can..........'t find some place more welcoming to ski.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 13, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> You could look at this either way. Some people like the trails scarce, others don't mind. Personally, I don't mind, in fact, Godforbid if I break my leg in glades I'd hope that people are coming through.
> 
> Breakout is asking if there is a perfect balance right now, and I say no. Not even close.
> 
> You could add another lift and still not worry about saturation. But I already know it will never happen, at least not under the co-op



I don't mind skiing around other skiers either...according to alot of folks I regularly ski at the most crowded ski area in the world. 

And because it is owned by a co-op the perfect balance is what they want. I think alot of non-owners wish they could justify spending the money to own, including me. I live too far away (4 hrs each way) to seriously justify it. But I would love to ski there at least 20-25 days a season to really get to know the place. I first skied there 40 or so years ago and I swear the place hasn't changed. I think it's the nostalgia that appeals to me.

And I think that's why people are so fanatic about keeping it as it is.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 13, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> Or to avoid it out of frustration.  As I am not local, and have to carefully choose my vaction destinations, I know that it has now moved down my list.  The parking situation didn't help, either.  I'm sure some of you are thinking "No problem, we won't miss you", but it's a shame to me, as I was hoping to ski it someday.



Sometimes you just have to go on a mission. Sometimes it's crowded, other times it isn't. If it's a powder day, I defy you to find a local area that isn't "crowded". What makes it great is the conditions. When it's not crowded, maybe conditions suck. You take your chances. The best planned trips sometimes lay an egg.

I go there 2-3 days a season and I'm never disappointed. I try to stick to late-feb or early-march.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 13, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> You can see how far apart the chairs are spaced in this picture of the Castle Rock chair
> 
> View attachment 6837



Great pic!

Upped the stoke factor in my gut 100%.

Good point about Castlerock.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 13, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Great pic!
> 
> Upped the stoke factor in my gut 100%.
> 
> Good point about Castlerock.




LOL, was definitely not looking at the chair spacing in that pic!!!!!


That looked like an incredible day.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> There is currently a plan to developing to commence major refurbishment of the base area at considerable cost.



What's the scope of the project?  Any public info on it?  We're not talking "major" as in tearing down the base box and rebuilding a new lodge? I can't imagine that.  Outside of new bathrooms and some expanded changing areas, I don't think the base area needs much of a major refurbishment.  


*these following two quotes are somewhat interrelated.
two different mind sets.*




riverc0il said:


> There is no time like now if anyone is considering becoming a shareholder!



I could be WAY off base, but I doubt Rivercoil is a shareholder for investment/savings purpose.  Becoming a Shareholder is in some ways like giving to a charity.  It's about something you believe in and the reward for doing so, is seldom because of return on monetary investment.  It's $2K to be a shareholder at MRG.  Shareholders save about 20% on a season pass purchase, so $125ish - to $150ish a season depending on time of purchase.  Shareholder day ticket purchase savings are scaled pretty similar.  So, you'd have to ski MRG for at least 15 years to see a cost savings benefit by being a shareholder......maybe. 
Economic conditions could change meaning the pay off is even longer, not that anyone is looking for a major pay off on a 2K investment over even 5 years.

Rivercoil stating "there is no time like now to become a shareholder" is not trying to sell any monetary benefit at all.  It's selling the concept of charity involvement in a historic one of a kind skiing institution for the northeast. 



AdironRider said:


> So a ski area that refuses to adapt to current market conditions, struggles financially, and needs major capital infusions...
> 
> Well consider me sold.



I don't think you're someone who would buy a share in MRG if they allowed snowboards, had a HSQ to the summit, a modern snowmaking system and a base area with more amenities.  I wouldn't either.  What would would be the point?  If MRG had all those things, what would make it different from any other place?  The reason people buy shares is to keep it almost exactly what it is; which like most charities, could never happen without donation. I admire the passion of MRG shareholders.  It's actually pretty affordable when you think about it.  You can become a shareholder for $50 a month for only four years and are only required to spend $200 a year at the ski area. 

I don't donate much to skiing related charities outside of the CHAD card(maybe I should given my passion for the sport), but I certainly contribute more than a MRG shareholders expense to other charities annually for causes I believe in and I receive very little in the terms of tax benefit at my income bracket.  Almost all the causes we donate to are animal/wildlife/environmental related.  The local SPCA certainly isn't going to give me a discount on a new cat or dog because of my support.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Nov 14, 2012)

Co-op members are required to spend a certain amount of money each season, not sure how much that is these days but most satisfy that with ticket/season pass purchases. If the season ends in the red the co-op members have to pony up to make up the diference. The last few years they have missed the important xmas holiday time more times than not.  Last season they got the lifts spinning the day before Xmas. 

With the foundation of their business model being no debt I think the co-op works well financially. A ski hill with a traditional business model has to get loans if revenue falls short or to pay for capital improvements. MRG's EBITDA is much cleaner than a resort with heavy loans.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> People do complain about Castlerock lines but I've never seen a line at Castlerock even half as bad as what seems to be standard fare at the single chair.
> 
> Also there's sick terrain accessible from Heaven's Gate so it's not like you have to ride Castlerock all day long.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I love trails with low traffic and powder spots but what's the point if you're spending literally half your day waiting in the lift line. I've only been to MRG 3 times and maybe I got unlucky in terms of the lines but it sure looks like this is a regular issue there at least on weekends.



In case you didn't notice there's some pretty sick terrain off the Sunnyside double at MRG too.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

snoseek said:


> LOL, was definitely not looking at the chair spacing in that pic!!!!!
> 
> 
> That looked like an incredible day.


Believe it or not most of the mountain was closed that day (wind holds). Only thing running was Gate House & Castle Rock.


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> What's the scope of the project?  Any public info on it?  We're not talking "major" as in tearing down the base box and rebuilding a new lodge? I can't imagine that.  Outside of new bathrooms and some expanded changing areas, I don't think the base area needs much of a major refurbishment.
> 
> 
> *these following two quotes are somewhat interrelated.
> ...



So your idea of a charity is supporting a lady who openly discriminates, offers only minority shares, then expects you to cover her losses when things go bad, all while refusing changes that would increase the bottom line. Thats not charity, thats called getting conned. 

So yeah, your right, I would never be a shareholder because its a terrible financial decision.

All just another example of the MRG halo effect. They can do no wrong, even though they are taking their "investors" for a ride. 

And you know what, you guys are the ones getting fooled. How many responses have DMC and I gotten basically being you snowboard = idiot?You dont get it man... etc. Well you might as pass that shit because your high as hell.This isnt a charity, its a bunch of people supporting a bigot ski area owner. Charity? Come on.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> So your idea of a charity is supporting a lady who openly discriminates, offers only minority shares, then expects you to cover her losses when things go bad, all while refusing changes that would increase the bottom line. Thats not charity, thats called getting conned.
> 
> So yeah, your right, I would never be a shareholder because its a terrible financial decision.
> 
> ...


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

Point made.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> So your idea of a charity is supporting a lady who openly discriminates, offers only minority shares, then expects you to cover her losses when things go bad, all while refusing changes that would increase the bottom line. Thats not charity, thats called getting conned.
> 
> So yeah, your right, I would never be a shareholder because its a terrible financial decision.
> 
> ...



This entire post is a perfect example of the "faux-outrage" I was talking about in the other thread a few hours ago.


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

No outrage, its just ludicrous to call MRG a charity.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> So your idea of a charity is supporting a lady who openly discriminates, offers only minority shares, then expects you to cover her losses when things go bad, all while refusing changes that would increase the bottom line. Thats not charity, thats called getting conned.
> 
> So yeah, your right, I would never be a shareholder because its a terrible financial decision.
> 
> ...



Where have I ever called you an idiot because you snowboard?

I'm actually more progressive than most regarding how I think MRG should change and allowing snowboarding is certainly one of my desires for the area.

Judging people who choose to be shareholders at MRG the way you do, doesn't make you some financial ski resort guru or the authority on morality based upon your interpretation of what went down with Besty.  It just makes you an asshole.


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

For some reason I cant edit... anywho

I think its just a prime example of people disillusion with MRG and how it can do no wrong. People treat it (And Magic for that manner) as a charity, when in fact it is not. You are supporting a bigoted old lady who cant run a business in the black, and talking yourself into supporting it based on "charity", "nostalgia" or what have you. 

Which is fine if you want to waste your money, but its nothing close to a charity. More like very poorly run private club, and those are going the way of the dodo bird if you havent noticed.


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## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Where have I ever called you an idiot because you snowboard?
> 
> I'm actually more progressive than most regarding how I think MRG should change and allowing snowboarding is certainly one of my desires for the area.
> 
> Judging people who choose to be shareholders at MRG the way you do, doesn't make you some financial ski resort guru or the authority on morality based upon your interpretation of what went down with Besty.  It just makes you an asshole.



You said it yourself, its losing deal financially. just pissed because I called you out on making it a charity when its not.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> For some reason I cant edit... anywho
> 
> I think its just a prime example of people disillusion with MRG and how it can do no wrong. People treat it (And Magic for that manner) as a charity, when in fact it is not. You are supporting a bigoted old lady who cant run a business in the black, and talking yourself into supporting it based on "charity", "nostalgia" or what have you.
> 
> Which is fine if you want to waste your money, but its nothing close to a charity. More like very poorly run private club, and those are going the way of the dodo bird if you havent noticed.



Again WHY DO YOU CARE what others choose to do with their money and their reasons behind those decisions.  Not your money.  If they're happy supporting MRG, Magic or whatever, the local Catholic Church, who gives a shit?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> *You are supporting a bigoted old lady*



Do you happen to know she's a bigot, or is this a ridiculous usage of that word in relation to snowboarding?



AdironRider said:


> who *cant run a business in the black*



Do we know 100% that MRG operated in the red?  I was under the impression that they do in fact now make a modest profit.  Not so?


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you happen to know she's a bigot, or is this a ridiculous usage of that word in relation to snowboarding?
> 
> 
> 
> Do we know 100% that MRG operated in the red?  I was under the impression that they do in fact now make a modest profit.  Not so?



*Bigotry* is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by _Merriam-Webster_ as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance. "


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> For some reason I cant edit... anywho
> 
> I think its just a prime example of people disillusion with MRG and how it can do no wrong. People treat it (And Magic for that manner) as a charity, when in fact it is not. You are supporting a bigoted old lady who cant run a business in the black, and talking yourself into supporting it based on "charity", "nostalgia" or what have you.
> Which is fine if you want to waste your money, but its nothing close to a charity. More like very poorly run private club, and those are going the way of the dodo bird if you havent noticed.



I don't know. Deer Valley & Alta seem to be pretty successful with the snowboarder ban.


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## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Again WHY DO YOU CARE what others choose to do with their money and their reasons behind those decisions.  Not your money.  If they're happy supporting MRG, Magic or whatever, the local Catholic Church, who gives a shit?



You're not the one to yell. Settle down Francis. 

I care because Im the one being discriminated against, and when actual shareholder chime in saying they dont know where they are going to get more money for necessary renos and are consistently missing holiday period revenue, yeah I can voice my opinion on whether its a shitty deal or not. 

If you want to sell it as a charity, persoanl gift, or love for the place fine, but I can call it a stupid financial decision as well.


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't know. Deer Valley & Alta seem to be pretty successful with the snowboarder ban.




And Augusta National hasnt.

 Alta/Deer Valley also are based within a metro area with millions of readily available customers and a major international airport within 25 minutes.


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## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

Nevermind that Alta and Deer Valley have also added lifts, amenities (I mean its Deer Valley), etc as the market has wanted. MRG refuses to adapt.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> For some reason I cant edit... anywho
> 
> I think its just a prime example of people disillusion with MRG and how it can do no wrong. People treat it (And Magic for that manner) as a charity, when in fact it is not. You are supporting a bigoted old lady who cant run a business in the black, and talking yourself into supporting it based on "charity", "nostalgia" or what have you.
> 
> Which is fine if you want to waste your money, but its nothing close to a charity. More like very poorly run private club, and those are going the way of the dodo bird if you havent noticed.



It is true that MRG has developed such a niche that they have generated a "can do no wrong" mentality. They don't have the finances to compete with the big boys, so they try to stay in the market by keeping things the same and the way "they used to be." People get used to the way the resort is run, especially since things stay the same, and for that reason don't want it to change.

That doesn't mean, however, that the ski area can't do any better. I have been and always will be a skier, but I think snowboarding should be allowed. I know half the reason, other than personal reasons between boarders and management, that MRG doesn't allow snowboarding is because of the difficulty boarders have loading the single. But back to my original post in this thread. I think a double or triple could be added from the bottom of paradise to the summit, without causing the area to be overskied. If there was a lift added from the bottom of paradise, boarders could reach it from the sunnyside double, and the single would still be skiers only.

Taos has seen growth in revenue since removing the snowboarding ban a few years ago, and I don't think MRG would differ. From a business perspective, it makes sense, I know it would piss off a lot of locals and die hard skiers though.

The one issue I still see that could stand in the way is the parking. They would have to build a parking garage


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> *Bigotry* is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by _Merriam-Webster_ as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: *one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.* "



And this_ isnt_ faux-outrage?   

I cant believe you're actually serious with this nonsense.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> It is true that *MRG has developed such a niche* that they have generated a "can do no wrong" mentality. *They don't have the finances to compete with the big boys, so they try to stay in the market by keeping things the same and the way "they used to be."*



I was at this 18th Century homestead last month and was OUTRAGED..... OUTRAGED.... I tell you, when I learned that I had to park off-site because they didnt want my "modern period" 2002 GMC Envoy on-site with the horses and carriages.

Then there was that time I was PISSED OFF that I wasnt allowed to hunt with my 30-06 on this archery game reserve in Canada.  The NERVE of those bigots!!!!!  :angry::angry:  Anti-gun and pro bow and arrow BIGOTS!!!!!


----------



## farlep99 (Nov 14, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You're not the one to yell. Settle down Francis.
> 
> I care because Im the one being discriminated against, and when actual shareholder chime in saying they dont know where they are going to get more money for necessary renos and are consistently missing holiday period revenue, yeah I can voice my opinion on whether its a shitty deal or not.
> 
> If you want to sell it as a charity, persoanl gift, or love for the place fine, but I can call it a stupid financial decision as well.



I'm so sad for you as a victim of discrimination.  That's so awful


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

farlep99 said:


> I'm so sad for you as a victim of discrimination.  That's so awful


Yeah poor AdironRider can't board at MRG.

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Breakout12 (Nov 14, 2012)

From this thread, I’ve learned that MRG is a ski area that:

-	has some degree of financial difficulty
-	is run by shareholders that want to maintain the status quo, and are willing to pay in order to do so
-	can have 30+ minute lift lines, but is still almost completely deserted
-	is no where near saturation

People have referred to it as quality over quantity.  However, it seems that they could greatly increase the lift capacity and still have nearly empty trails.  Would that really impact the quality so much?  I wonder about the mindset that is willing to wait so long and only get 6-7 runs in a day, when they could have many more with no appreciable impact on the quality.  However, as long as the shareholders aren’t complaining, it’s their call.  

Here’s another question.  If part of the ban on boards stems from loading/unloading problems, why can’t they just carry the boards?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

farlep99 said:


> I'm so sad for you as a victim of discrimination.  That's so awful



I'm still trying to figure out where to slot the severity of MRG's _"anti-snowboarder bigotry" _in relation to Muslim countries executing gays, 19th century US slavery, the women's suffrage movement, and forced lobotomies on the mentally handicapped.


----------



## Cannonball (Nov 14, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm still trying to figure out where to slot the severity of MRG's _"anti-snowboarder bigotry" _in relation to Muslim countries executing gays, 19th century US slavery, the women's suffrage movement, and forced lobotomies on the mentally handicapped.



Funny you should mention that last one.  Isn't that the MRG demographic?


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2012)

You nancies sure are taking the high road. I assume you have no actual arguments then. Cool.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

http://www.madriverglen.com/coop/

Mad River Glen became one of Vermont’s first major ski areas when the  Single Chair began carrying skiers to the top of General Stark Mountain  in 1948. From the very beginning, Mad River Glen has been unique, a  place where skiing is a sport not an industry, working with nature not  against it. Mad River Glen began a new era in 1995 when its skiers came  together to form the Mad River Glen Cooperative. 

*The Cooperative works  to fulfill a simple mission:

*
* “… to forever protect the classic Mad River Glen skiing experience by preserving low skier density, natural terrain and forests, varied trail character, and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit *_*of shareholders, area personnel and patrons.” 
*
_​  In an age when the ski industry is becoming increasingly  consolidated and homogenized, America’s only skier-owned major mountain  bucks the trend by remaining independent and preserving a brand of  skiing that exists nowhere else. In the Co-op’s first decade we have  overcome many big challenges. The mortgage has been paid off; the Co-op  has proven its ability to manage the ski area; and nearly $4 million has  been invested in capital projects including the replacement of the  Sunnyside Double Chair, the renovation of the Stark’s Nest, the purchase  of new groomers, a great deal of deferred maintenance, and most  significantly, the historic restoration of the Single Chair. Many skiers  have commented that the ski area is in the best shape it has been in  years, but our work is far from over. Over the next five years, we  expect to spend another $500,000 on capital projects such as a rebuild  of the Patrol and Ski School building, replacement of the drive on  Birdland Double Chair and other smaller projects. Your share purchase  will truly make a difference in the effort to ensure the preservation  and protection of Mad River Glen’s unique ski experience. All of us who  have already committed ourselves to this goal invite you to join us in  our mission. 

A share in the Mad River Cooperative costs $2,000. Shares may be  purchased through a single payment or in 40 monthly installments of $50  with a $150 down payment. (Total cost for installment plan is $2,150  (8.0% Annual Percentage Rate.) The installment option enables anyone who  loves and appreciates Mad River to become an owner for as little as $50  per month. Either way, you start enjoying the benefits immediately! The  only other cost is the annual advance purchase requirement (APR) of  $200. Since advance purchases can be applied to nearly every product and  service on the mountain, including season passes, tickets, ski school  and food, the advance purchase requirement does not represent an  additional expense for most shareholders.


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## Breakout12 (Nov 14, 2012)

So my comments/questions regarding skier density still stand.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> *the cooperative works  to fulfill a simple mission:
> *
> * “to forever protect the classic mad river glen skiing experience by preserving low skier density, natural terrain and forests, varied trail character, and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit *_*of shareholders, area personnel and patrons.”
> *
> _​  in an age when the ski industry is becoming increasingly  consolidated and homogenized, america’s only skier-owned major mountain  bucks the trend by remaining independent and preserving a brand of  skiing that exists nowhere else.



Monsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Monsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Are you going to make a point


----------



## x10003q (Nov 14, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> From this thread, I’ve learned that MRG is a ski area that:
> 
> -    has some degree of financial difficulty
> -    is run by shareholders that want to maintain the status quo, and are willing to pay in order to do so
> ...



Well said. It would have been cheaper to make the single a double and the trails would still be empty. 

MRG is like skiing in the 1960s only with better skis and clothes. Long lift lines? Check. Good odds of no skiing before or during the xmas holiday? Check. Crap conditions unless it snows? Check. No ability to recover from the Jan thaw and rain storm? Check.

By the way skiing sucked in the 1960s when compared to today's skiing.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> Are you going to make a point



As soon as I get off the phone with the ACLU.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Well said. It would have been cheaper to make the single a double and the trails would still be empty.
> 
> MRG is like skiing in the 1960s only with better skis and clothes. Long lift lines? Check. Good odds of no skiing before or during the xmas holiday? Check. Crap conditions unless it snows? Check. No ability to recover from the Jan thaw and rain storm? Check.
> 
> By the way skiing sucked in the 1960s when compared to today's skiing.



An intelligent post. Thank you. MRG can still be expanded and remain its old charm. I'm not throwing out anything crazy like replacing the single with a high-speed gondola and the sunnyside double with a six pack, just another chair lift 2/3's the way up to the summit


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> I think a double or triple could be added from the bottom of paradise to the summit, without causing the area to be overskied. If there was a lift added from the bottom of paradise, boarders could reach it from the sunnyside double, and the single would still be skiers only.



Wait so maybe my memory of the layout of the terrain isn't exactly spot on here, but wouldn't that mean this lift basically would have to cut through Paradise and then Fall Line to achieve this?

I'd like to think there are more options for MRG in this situation but there's only one way to the top without cutting through a lot of natural terrain and that's following the path of the single chair.

So it's either bye bye single chair or they spin a double as close as possible right next to it. In that case it would be kind of rediculous to keep the single chair just for the sake of continuing to have a living museum piece.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> Wait so maybe my memory of the layout of the terrain isn't exactly spot on here, but wouldn't that mean this lift basically would have to cut through Paradise and then Fall Line to achieve this?
> 
> I'd like to think there are more options for MRG in this situation but there's only one way to the top without cutting through a lot of natural terrain and that's following the path of the single chair.
> 
> So it's either bye bye single chair or they spin a double as close as possible right next to it. In that case it would be kind of rediculous to keep the single chair just for the sake of continuing to have a living museum piece.



Cut through Paradise? Yes, but only the last 50 or so yards of it.

Double fall Line? Yes, makes for a more complex build but it's possible


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

If you don't like Mad River Glen & the way they operate the mountain ski somewhere else.

Pretty simple.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

I do like it, but it could be made better, so I'm going to voice my opinion. And if you have a problem with that, then you can post somewhere else :razz:


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 14, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> Wait so maybe my memory of the layout of the terrain isn't exactly spot on here, but wouldn't that mean this lift basically would have to cut through Paradise and then Fall Line to achieve this?
> 
> I'd like to think there are more options for MRG in this situation but there's only one way to the top without cutting through a lot of natural terrain and that's following the path of the single chair.
> 
> So it's either bye bye single chair or they spin a double as close as possible right next to it. In that case it would be kind of rediculous to keep the single chair just for the sake of continuing to have a living museum piece.



You could put it up the ravine starting at bunny just before the intersection with the Glade trail or where it intersects with Grand Canyon.


----------



## x10003q (Nov 14, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> If you don't like Mad River Glen & the way they operate the mountain ski somewhere else.
> 
> Pretty simple.



I do ski other mountains.

 I liked the terrain when I last visited. It will be a long time before I go again. Spending time and money to watch the single chair load is just not for me.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

And I like it just the way it is.

Thinking you can run a chair up Paradise without changing the character of the mountain & destroying the layout of the trails on that side just shows how little you know.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

Evolve or die


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> Evolve or die


Established 1948.


----------



## Breakout12 (Nov 14, 2012)

A lot of the comments defending MRG don't square with "_*and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit of shareholders, area personnel and patrons*_.”


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

Please enlighten me on how little I know by explaining what "character of the mountain" even means to you. I think MRG can still keep its character and add another lift. It would cut through the very bottom of paradise and that's it. How's that destroying the layout



Breakout12 said:


> A lot of the comments defending MRG don't square with "_*and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit of shareholders, area personnel and patrons*_.”


LOL +1. We're the only ones being cordial here


----------



## fiddletildeath (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere - putting a lift through any part of paradise and/or fall line would definitely infringe upon the quiet untouched vibe of those trails.  There are a lot of options and secrets.  I'm all for expansion and more lifts... but how bout opening some adjacent terrain pods with another lift instead?  I don't like lift lines at all either and I've done the 40 minute single chair powder day weekend wait. . . . but a lift through paradise and fall line?  seriously?


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

What do you mean vibe? It's a buzzword. At most you'd have to ski around a tower, maybe not though depending on its spacing. Unless you're referring to hidden stashes

I'm not against opening up adjacent terrain pods, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't prefer to open right now.

I knew I was stirring up the pot with this thread, but I truly feel MRG would benefit in many ways with opening up a midway lift to the summit, and the benefit would outweigh anything that was disrupted, including "vibe". Just my .02 cents


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2012)

Instead of 2 cents, you could spend 2 Grand and vote!


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## Smellytele (Nov 14, 2012)

fiddletildeath said:


> skiNEwhere - putting a lift through any part of paradise and/or fall line would definitely infringe upon the quiet untouched vibe of those trails.  There are a lot of options and secrets.  I'm all for expansion and more lifts... but how bout opening some adjacent terrain pods with another lift instead?  I don't like lift lines at all either and I've done the 40 minute single chair powder day weekend wait. . . . but a lift through paradise and fall line?  seriously?


I was suggesting that it could go in-between Fallline and the single chair.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

I could, and maybe I would, if I got the general consensus of people sharing my point of view, otherwise I'd be arguing a moot point


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## JimG. (Nov 14, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> View attachment 6843



You are killing it with the pics in this thread.

Nothing inspires heated debate like:

1) anything Killington.
2) MRG and snowboarders or MRG and change.

and skiNEwhere gets mod points for pot stirring skills. Nice!


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

I had a feeling this thread would get heated. Funny thing is, other than the original post, I didn't really say anything for like the first 90 posts.......Everybody else stirred the pot for me. Had a feeling this would turn into a "Should MRG allow snowboarding" thread, which I was trying to avoid since there are already 8,000 threads like that.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 14, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> I had a feeling this thread would get heated. Funny thing is, other than the original post, I didn't really say anything for like the first 90 posts.......Everybody else stirred the pot for me. Had a feeling this would turn into a "Should MRG allow snowboarding" thread, which I was trying to avoid since there are already 8,000 threads like that.



Once the discussion starts it all spills out on the table, no way to avoid it. It's inevitable because the resistance to change includes that snowboard ban...you can't discuss changes without it coming up.

And I use that pot stirring reference jokingly now because I've learned it implies negative things to some posters. I don't mean it in a bad way, I enjoy the passion you see in these pages as the discussion evolves. 

When you see this intensity it makes you realize there are alot of folks here I'd enjoy a day of skiing with regardless of opinions.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2012)

JimG. said:


> When you see this intensity it makes you realize* there are alot of folks here I'd enjoy a day of skiing with regardless of opinions.*



Even the bigots?


----------



## skiNEwhere (Nov 14, 2012)

JimG. said:


> And I use that pot stirring reference jokingly now because I've learned it implies negative things to some posters. I don't mean it in a bad way, I enjoy the passion you see in these pages as the discussion evolves.



I didn't take it negatively. I thought you were joking but I wasn't sure since it can be hard to read sarcasm through text. Even if you weren't it would still be all good. 

Bear with me, I'm suffering from ski withdrawl, I haven't skied since August (yes, August on the glacier by my house) and won't be able to ski until at least January when I come home on leave since I'm in afghannyland

Good day to you sir


----------



## Brewbeer (Nov 14, 2012)

I haven't skied there in a number of years, but I wouldn't want to see anything changed.  Enough people believe that the single terrain is worth a 30-40 minute wait to keep the single a single.  I wouldn't ski there on a weekend powder day even back when I was still going there, but definitely took time off from work to get up there on a powder weekday.  

The term "bigot" used earlier in the thread is completely inappropriate, as no one is excluded from skiing there.  Anyone who shows up with a pair of skis can buy a ticket and ride the single.


----------



## WWF-VT (Nov 14, 2012)

I think MRG should build a ramp garage to address their parking challenges on busy days and add a waterpark so when a group or family comes that includes a snow boarder or two they have an alternative activity for the snowboarder(s) while the rest ski.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 15, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> I think MRG should build a ramp garage to address their parking challenges on busy days and add a waterpark so when a group or family comes that includes a snow boarder or two they have an alternative activity for the snowboarder(s) while the rest ski.


Don't forget the ice rink, village, hotel, restaurants & condo's.

Multilevel parking on the edge of rt.17 should go smoothly through the VT. permitting process I'd think.

I mean it wouldn't take anything away from the natural beauty of the Appalachian Gap or anything would it?

They'd need a pedestrian overpass also otherwise those 18 wheelers coming down the pass might get in the way.

No new lifts, I mean look at Smugglers Notch they didn't need new lifts & they're successful with their village development. 

Ascutney on the other hand with their new HSQ & existing base development didn't fare as well.

MRG has to evolve or die.


----------



## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

This thread got heated when a snowboarder said 





> 10 minute waits for a midweek powday is pretty bad IMO.


and a few people jumped on him for saying things like - 


> Then go somewhere else. Are you a snowboarder? If so who cares what you think about MRG?



Somehow since he's a snowboarder he cannot give an opinion on anything MRG... 

That's how this bullshti started...

I left this place for a year and forgot how some skiers here discount everything snowboard and it really showed here in this thread...
And part of it came from a tele skier which blows my mind based upon the tele skiers I ride with...


----------



## ScottySkis (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> This thread got heated when a snowboarder said
> and a few people jumped on him for saying things like -
> 
> 
> ...


It sucks that people are like that, I just happy to see people at the hills enjoying winter and keeping the hills open.


Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## bvibert (Nov 15, 2012)

JimG. said:


> You are killing it with the pics in this thread.
> 
> Nothing inspires heated debate like:
> 
> ...



Yeah, really any MRG thread tends to devolve into the snowboard ban debate, especially those threads that are attempting to discuss something other than the ban.  This thread didn't disappoint.  There probably should have been more crying baby pics though...


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> This thread got heated when a snowboarder said
> and a few people jumped on him for saying things like -
> 
> 
> ...



I actually have nothing against snowboarders. A few of my buddies ride. All I was saying was that he can not go there so he is not part of their customer base so it really doesn't matter to MRG what he thinks. I actually would not have an issue with boarders being at MRG. Unfortunately MRG probably doesn't care what I think either seeing I am not a shareholder and only go there once maybe twice a year if at all.


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

This thread was particularly bad...
Having an opinion discounted because a person is a snowboarder is just bad form imho...

And especially a comment about waiting in lines in general getting trashed..
It wasn't even like he said anything super specific about skiing or MRG... 

Just discounted out of the box in an ugly way...  disturbing to me in 2012...


----------



## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I actually have nothing against snowboarders. A few of my buddies ride. All I was saying was that he can not go there so he is not part of their customer base so it really doesn't matter to MRG what he thinks. I actually would not have an issue with boarders being at MRG. Unfortunately MRG probably doesn't care what I think either seeing I am not a shareholder and only go there once maybe twice a year if at all.



And yet you discount someone's opinion because they ride...  
I bet your snowboard "friends" love that...

i could care less about the ban anymore...  But I'm shocked at how you guys went after this comment..


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> And yet you discount someone's opinion because they ride...
> I bet your snowboard "friends" love that...
> 
> i could care less about the ban anymore...  But I'm shocked at how you guys went after this comment..



I don't believe he is innocent in this and that is was actually him who was baiting.


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I don't believe he is innocent in this and that is was actually him who was baiting.



Really?  His comment again,,,


> _10 minute waits for a midweek powday is pretty bad IMO._



That's baiting?  I thought it was just an opinion...

Here's you taking the bait...


> _Then go somewhere else. Are you a snowboarder? If so who cares what you think about MRG?_



I had no idea things have gotten bad again..   I need my tele crew to restore my faith now...


----------



## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2012)

I feel kind of bad when I happen to mention the terrain at MRG and snowboarder friends are around. I have to qualify the statement with a "but they don't allow snowboarding there". As a skier I am not 100% free of some prejudice towards snowboarding.. I think skiing is better because that's what I do. But a few of my friends who ride can go toe to toe with me on any terrain.

The idea that snowboards wipe out fresh snow faster than skiers, I used to take for granted but now I doubt. A lot of snowboarders would avoid terrain like Fall Line / Paradise like the plague, and those who can ride it are probably going to slay it clean.

As for the lift through any section of Fall Line / Paradise I would object to that. Mad River Glen is not sacred to me. But that particular part of the mountain is. Just because it happens to be arguably the most challenging and interesting lift served terrain in the east.

The single chair is slow, long lines, and I don't enjoy riding a lift alone. Assume that's not going anywhere for the reasons already discussed. The only option I see is a double right beside the single. I think it's a given that too many people would object to cutting a lift through any glades or existing trails so it's the only way to go.

Maybe if they want to use less lift towers they could put in a low capacity gondola


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

bdfreetuna gets it.... Need to do some runs with you some day!!


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## JimG. (Nov 15, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even the bigots?



I don't equate opinions with bigotry.

Everyone has opinions. Bigotry is a disease born from total ignorance. 

So, no, I don't want anything to do with bigots.


----------



## Bene288 (Nov 15, 2012)

This is kind of off track, but could contribute to the argument; Does MRG allow adaptive sit in skis? Cause I know those would be dicey getting on a single chair. 

 I've built some reproductions homes, look identical to homes built in the 1780's - 1930's. But the guts are modern (mostly due to building codes, but not many customers want a converted turn of the century stove, they opt for the all stainless electric stove, or they'll throw a flat screen in the sitting parlor). People want old charm and appeal, but they don't want dated amenities. I feel you could keep Mad River Glen's 60's ski area vibe, but improve on the inner workings of the mountain. Example: Put in a higher speed lift somewhere on the mountain, that make current customers happy. Worried it will attract too many new customers and ruin the "experience"? Then keep the parking lot limited. It sounds like even with a little more uphill capacity, you'd still never run into too many people on the slopes. 

All I know is that businesses need to evolve, as said before. It's sad, but the stores and businesses that refused to open on Saturdays and Sundays are now a distant memory. I think you could treat MRG similarly. I'm not at all comparing running a ski area to running a grocery or retail store, but business needs to cater to the customer, not themselves. It sounds like the customers at MRG are going to getting sick of only getting 6 runs on one day. Just my opinion, I've never been, so I'm sure I'll get responses like "you have no idea because you've never been there". I don't mind skiing with other people on the trail, skiers AND snowboarders. It's the norm for my generation. I love sick trees, which I hear is what MRG is famous for, but you know for a 4 hour ride and getting maybe half a dozen runs on a powder day, I'd go somewhere else. I'm not saying I'll never go there, but from reading these posts, I'll probably never go there on a pow day unless I'm somehow in the area and my skis are in the truck.  I'd prefer better uphill capacity.



> I don't believe he is innocent in this and that is was actually him who was baiting.



^^ That's kind of messed up. All the guy said is that 10 minute waits midweek are bad. I agree, and I have the "right" to ski at MRG. The whole "discrimination" thing is thrown around a little too much when it comes to MRG and snowboarders. It's quite a first world problem. I've heard MRG will rent skis to anyone that unknowingly shows up with a board no charge. I say to myself, "That's good of them" then I think that it would be like asking me to snowboard when I showed up with skis. I can't snowboard (very well). It's sort of stripping them of their identity. I have no problem letting snowboarders in, anywhere. Again, haven't been there, but it seems like they'll have to adapt to a more updated business model at some point. I haven't seen the numbers. Some of you say they're teetering on the red, some of you say they turn quite the profit. So I don't know. Just my opinion on the matter.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2012)

JimG. said:


> *I don't equate opinions with bigotry.*



I know.  I was mocking the "opinion" that if you think it's okay that MRG remain a period mountain that only allows skiing = you're a "bigot"


----------



## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

It's easier to claim bigotry when your on the losing side...

not saying I agree - just sayin...


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## jaybird (Nov 15, 2012)

JimG. said:


> NO!



+!


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 15, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know.  I was mocking the "opinion" that if you think it's okay that MRG remain a period mountain that only allows skiing = you're a "bigot"



Your reading comprehesion skills are pretty poor then. I have my opinions about the owner, but you sure are doing a great job of presenting zero argument otherwise than half assed trolling.


----------



## bvibert (Nov 15, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Your reading comprehesion skills are pretty poor then. I have my opinions about the owner, but you sure are doing a great job of presenting zero argument otherwise than half assed trolling.



The owner of what?  MRG is owned by the co-op.


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

bvibert said:


> The owner of what?  MRG is owned by the co-op.



So what does Betsy do?


----------



## bvibert (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> So what does Betsy do?



The last I knew she was running a place to stay down the street


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

bvibert said:


> The last I knew she was running a place to stay down the street



Skier only?   




kidding...


----------



## x10003q (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> So what does Betsy do?



She keeps the snowboarders out.:wink:


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## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

x10003q said:


> She keeps the snowboarders out.:wink:



She's like a snowboard condom...


----------



## x10003q (Nov 15, 2012)

dmc said:


> She's like a snowboard condom...


That made me spit out my coffee

:lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Your reading comprehesion skills are pretty poor then. I have my opinions about *the owner*, but you sure are doing a great job of presenting zero argument otherwise than half assed trolling.



My argument was that you enjoy the faux-outrage and take it to ridiculous degrees with silly+absurd charges of "bigotry".  Exaggeration ^infinity.

My new argument is that you dont even know what you're talking about given the woman hasnt even owned the place in nearly 20 years now.  But dont let me stop you from firing off that scathing letter to Coca-Cola corporation's CEO about "New Coke".



x10003q said:


> She keeps the snowboarders out.:wink:



Only after raping and pillaging the land, and forcing snowboarders to huddle on other "reservations".

The upshot?  In about 100 years the first "Snowboarder Casino" will open, so, there's that.


----------



## dmc (Nov 15, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Only after raping and pillaging the land, and forcing snowboarders to huddle on other "reservations".



Gives out wool blankets loaded with Sars.... 
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104245/free-blankets


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 15, 2012)

Throws cats at people who dare pass by


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## MadPatSki (Nov 15, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> From this thread, I’ve learned that MRG is a ski area that:
> 
> -    has some degree of financial difficulty
> -    is run by shareholders that want to maintain the status quo, and are willing to pay in order to do so
> ...



I haven't been on the forums in a while...been busy.

A quick series of answers on the 4 points above.

1) degree of financial difficulty like many other ski areas. Probably less, the Coop has been in the black for almost every season since the Coop started in 1995. However MRG is more affected by lack of snow, as it's busy is pretty much based on revenue from uniquely skiing.
2) Maintain the status quo? They want to keep it natural and in synch with the environment.
3) Never seen 30 minutes lifts lines; it might happen once or twice a year. Thinking NATO summit weekend on a powder day...yes, it would be crazy.
4) Saturation : there is saturation issues, but not on the hill: parking lot, basebox, etc. 



Breakout12 said:


> I wonder about the mindset that is willing to wait so long and only get 6-7 runs in a day, when they could have many more with no appreciable impact on the quality.



Regardless of the wait, not many people would ski more than 10 runs a day. Go midweek, the place is deserted and lift tickets are cheap.

Like Riverc0il, I'm also a shareholder. I'm far from being rich, MRG isn't a charity either. Money that I have to poney up every season is $200 (you can buy a round at the bar with that money). $200 isn't that hard to spend if you go at the store, ski, cafeteria, bar, etc.

I have never, over the last 14 years I've been a shareholder, had to pay up at the end of bad season.

If Betsy is still owner (I don't know)? If she is, she would be one of the many hundreds of shareholders that own the mountain and has only one vote like me.


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## Cannonball (Nov 15, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know.  I was mocking the "opinion" that if you think it's okay that MRG remain a period mountain that only allows skiing = you're a "bigot"



That's really interesting.  I hadn't realized MRG was a "period mountain".  I haven't been there for about 20 years.  At that time it was pretty stripped down but certainly not a "period mountain".  So did they institute the period thing at the time of the snowboard ban?  What era skis do you have to have to ski there?  Does it apply to clothing too?  Does it have to be actual period stuff or just look the part?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> That's really interesting.  I hadn't realized MRG was a "period mountain".  I haven't been there for about 20 years.  At that time it was pretty stripped down but certainly not a "period mountain".  So did they institute the period thing at the time of the snowboard ban?  What era skis do you have to have to ski there?  Does it apply to clothing too?  Does it have to be actual period stuff or just look the part?



 It's like skiing at Pioneer Village, the guy who plays Murderin' Murphy takes it to the extreme.


----------



## Breakout12 (Nov 15, 2012)

MadPatSki said:


> I haven't been on the forums in a while...been busy.
> 
> A quick series of answers on the 4 points above.
> 
> ...



A response to your response 

1)  riverc0il said;

“I don't know where this notion comes from, a lot of people seem to have it. MRG struggles in bad years just like any other area.  The coop is actively seeking new shareholders who want to contribute to being a part of sustaining the area and be part of the MRG community. I get concerned when I see this notion because it might dissuade potential new shareholders. *Lean years effect MRG negatively more so than other areas *because of the incorrect notion that MRG is only good after it snows. MRG can't attract skiers when the weather is bad and only snow making and grooming trails are skiing well in the region. There is currently a plan to developing to commence major refurbishment of the base area at considerable cost. There is no time like now if anyone is considering becoming a shareholder!”

I didn’t say it was in bad shape, just that it had some degree of financial difficulty, but apparently some years are worse for MRG than other areas


2) From the Oxford English Dictionary (the bible of dictionaries);

Status quo – “The existing state of affairs. status quo ante: the state of affairs previously existing” 

steamboat1 said;

“The Cooperative works to fulfill a simple mission: “… *to forever protect the classic Mad River Glen skiing experience *by preserving low skier density, natural terrain and forests, varied trail character, and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit of shareholders, area personnel and patrons.” 

So yeah, they’re trying to maintain the status quo.

3) bdfreetuna said;

“I actually have no plans to return to MRG after my last experience there *waiting for 30+ mins *in every line for the single chair. I don't know how many runs I got that day but it was significantly less than average.

And;

“On a day with *30+ minute waits *I never saw anyone else on Fall Line or Paradise and only came across a few other people the whole way down Antelope. It was also three days after a huge dump and there were still freshies all over.

So I'm gonna say the mountain could easily handle more traffic.”

David Metsky said;

 “There's no real desire to get more people up to the top of the mountain. The business model includes the impact of long lift lines - the fact that you'll see people *waiting in 20-40 minute lines* for the Single is an indication that they value the product enough to wait. Part of the appeal is the scarcity; MRG won't survive if it's just like the other options in the area.

It might only be a couple of times a year, but it still happens.

4) Again, “On a day with 30+ minute waits *I never saw anyone else on Fall Line or Paradise and only came across a few other people the whole way down Antelope. *It was also three days after a huge dump and there were still freshies all over.

*So I'm gonna say the mountain could easily handle more traffic.*”

The point I was making about saturation is “it seems that they could greatly increase the lift capacity and still have nearly empty trails. Would that really impact the quality so much? I wonder about the mindset that is willing to wait so long and only get 6-7 runs in a day, when they could have many more with no appreciable impact on the quality.”

That 6-7 came from farlep99, who said

“As stated before MRG is all about quality vs. quantity. I'll take quality over quantity any day. If that means skiing *6-7 great runs* at MRG instead of 15 runs elsewhere, then so be it.”

10 runs a day is better than 6-7.  So again, wouldn’t you want 10 if you could have it with “no appreciable impact on the quality?”

Again, just what I've learned in this thread, based on other people's experiences.


----------



## fiddletildeath (Nov 15, 2012)

OK, the only option that is going to make everyone here happy is....

ANOTHER SINGLE CHAIR!!!


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 15, 2012)

fiddletildeath said:


> OK, the only option that is going to make everyone here happy is....
> 
> ANOTHER SINGLE CHAIR!!!



Only if it's detachable!


----------



## MadPatSki (Nov 15, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> A bunch of quotes...



Can't response to everything in detail in the middle of the day.

A few quick comments - more or less what I said.

a) *You cannot add any extra people on the hill (there is some room), but facilities* (parking, basebox) are a more serious saturation issue. Regardless of how any people the mountain can take, you are limited by space at the base.

b) *Number of runs in a day? Wait time?* Never had a really bad or busy experience at MRG in over 40 visits/lifetime. Just did a quick check, the last time I skied on April 2, 2011, we did 7 runs with my 8yr-old daughter starting skiing at 11am with a 90 minutes lunch break.

http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/mad-river-glen-april-2-2011-loco-or-local/

Log never made it on the TR. Pretty sure we got at least 10 runs in. I know it was midweek, but it was roll-back-the-clock day with fresh snow.
http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/mad-river-glen-vt-jan-25-2011-roll-back-and-get-back/

c) Status Quo?

Single was refurbished and chair is electric. 
Regeneration zone for fallen trees.
Base redesign is the next big project.
Status quo would be...not do anything and keep it the same. The Coop is working to improve the place. Coop took over the store and is now Coop owned. There are many examples that point that they are thinking ahead, except you have to look beyond the single to see the changes.

d) I agree with Riverc0il.

_*Lean years effect MRG negatively more so than other areas because of the incorrect notion that MRG is only good after it snows.

*_*I said this: *_*"*__degree of financial difficulty like many other ski areas. Probably less, the Coop has been in the black for almost every season since the Coop started in 1995. *However MRG is more affected by lack of snow, as it's busy is pretty much based on revenue from uniquely skiing."*_General situation is not worst than the average ski area. Debt level is very low compared to other ski areas and Coop has been running in the black most ski seasons. The same cannot necessarily be said for everyone. Lean season hurt because of the margin and the fact that MRG doesn't to get into debt. They are extremely financial conservative with budgeting; they have no choice as it is owned by skiers, many of which, aren't generally well off financially.


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## MadPatSki (Nov 15, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> Only if it's detachable!



It takes 12 minutes to gain 2000ft and go from the base to summit. It takes 8-9 minutes in a gondola at Tremblant. How long does it take at Sugarbush? Smugglers' Notch? Sugarloaf?


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## Breakout12 (Nov 15, 2012)

MadPatSki said:


> Can't response to everything in detail in the middle of the day.
> 
> A few quick comments - more or less what I said.
> 
> ...



Fair enough.  

I just wanted to provide the sources and reasons that informed my opinion.  

PS:  I agree with you comments about the difficulties of adding more skiers due to parking constraints, etc.  I was thinking more about getting the existing number of skiers up the mountain faster, and reducing wait times.  The impression I got was that there is a ton of extra space, and that regulars don't want the density to increase at all.


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## Nick (Nov 15, 2012)

Phew, 165 posts on the single chair


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2012)

Actually there are only 22 posts/tower on the single chair (24 if you include the terminals).

Seriously though, this thread need to die.


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## MadPatSki (Nov 15, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> I agree with you comments about the difficulties of adding more skiers due to parking constraints, etc.  I was thinking more about getting the existing number of skiers up the mountain faster, and reducing wait times.  The impression I got was that there is a ton of extra space, and that regulars don't want the density to increase at all.



The problem with adding greater uphill capacities without even going to the vibe thingy:

- Snow preservation
- Cost for extra lift
- How many times do you need that extra capacity? Even on the busier days, there is go to be little wait time prior to 10am and after 2:30pm with a bit of quiet time at lunch. So it 'might be busy' 7 hours/week.

You are correct, regular don't want the capacity to increase. If MRG would have chosen the double chair option instead of the new single, it would have had the same uphill capacity (ie. slower speed or/and less chairs).


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## bvibert (Nov 15, 2012)

Breakout12 said:


> 10 runs a day is better than 6-7.  So again, wouldn’t you want 10 if you could have it with “no appreciable impact on the quality?”



Who's to say it wouldn't have any appreciable impact on quality?  I'd rather ski 6-7 runs and have the trails to myself, finding pockets of fresh snow at the end of the day than skiing 10 runs while sharing the trails with a bunch of yahoos and running out of fresh snow after the 4th or 5th run.


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## riverc0il (Nov 15, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> What's the scope of the project?  Any public info on it?  We're not talking "major" as in tearing down the base box and rebuilding a new lodge? I can't imagine that.  Outside of new bathrooms and some expanded changing areas, I don't think the base area needs much of a major refurbishment.


I've seen preliminary plans, nothing finalized. But definitely not major in the sense of altering the character of the base area. The goal is more to ensure safety, create some additional space where needed, better utilize existing space, expand service areas a bit (think F&B, Rental, Tune Up, Ski School, Patrol, etc.), create better and safer egress, etc. while retaining the character of the area. Nothing major. It is all really good stuff and the Basebox ain't going anywhere. Again, it is just in planning process and a ways off.

And you are right the share wasn't an investment nor was it for discounts (I only ski there 3-4/season). I bought in during the Single Chair campaign. I love the place and wanted to be part of contributing to MRG being preserved and protected just as I first skied it.

Allowing snowboarders might increase revenues somewhat BUT as this thread clearly has demonstrated, MRG capacity is limited by the parking lot and lines, not by what type of gear people are allowed to slide on. It would be a small bump BUT I think the loss of the marketing angle (for those that appreciate what it is) of saying skiers only... take that away and the increased revenues of snowboarders would not offset the losses of skiers that saw the place change in a way they didn't like. Keeping the ban in place may actually be a prudent financial move.

If there was a vote today? I'd be torn. I started as a shareholder as "definitely not". At this point I don't know. But some of the posters in this thread being dick heads about it certainly doesn't convince me. Though I appreciate the civil discourse from respectful dissenters such as Cannonball, et al.


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## riverc0il (Nov 15, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Co-op members are required to spend a certain amount of money each season, not sure how much that is these days but most satisfy that with ticket/season pass purchases. If the season ends in the red the co-op members have to pony up to make up the diference.


The APR is $200/season... basically 4-5 visits if you buy a Mad Card, or a couple visits with F&B/Retail purchases. Most usually spend more than that. Coop members DO NOT have to pony up the difference if the area ends the year in the red. Though if there was a risk of insolvency, I am sure the pockets would need to be opened. But that certainly hasn't happened since I've been a SH but not every year I've been one has been profitable.


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