# Any Okemo (VT) Condo owners out there? If so, I'm looking for your opinion.



## Mick_Shrimpton (Aug 24, 2010)

Hope this is the right place to post this thread.

I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.

I'm specifically concerned about ski-in/ski-out access, build quality/maintenance of the buildings, amenities/services, HOA/maintenance fees, rental potential, etc., etc.  Looking for some personal experiences, recommendations and advice.  Probably looking at a 2 BR/2BA unit.

Thanks in advance,

Ray


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## Geoff (Aug 24, 2010)

I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.

Look at the Act 68 state school tax.   It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.

Look at the 1 1/4% transfer tax you pay when you  buy.

Look at the tax treatment you receive when you sell.   Your sale is *not* taxed as capital gains in Vermont.   It is taxed as regular income.    If you make the kind of income most people do who buy slopeside condos, it will be taxed in the top brackets which is 8.9% to 9.4%.

Vermont keeps enacting new taxes on out-of-staters.   When you do the analysis, assume it will be worse a decade from now.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2010)

My folks rented slopeside for 4 years in the mid-80s off the Sachem Trail, one of the older units from the 70s.  I was a too young to know anything about build construction / fees all that stuff.

One thing that I think is nice about those units is there's a separate road up there such that you don't have to deal with the access road cluster to get to the units like you do for Winterplace / Kettlebrook etc.  Another benefit is the Sachem Quad sees far less traffic than most chairs at the mountain.  Kettlebrook you pretty much have to ski down to the base zoo to start your day.

Don't know if you have kids or not, but sledding on the Sachem at night after the trails closed was a total blast.  

This was over 20 years ago, but back then and even into the Solitude expansion, they were quick to open up Sachem Trail and it always stayed open until nearly the end of the season.  It's also one of the best beginner trails on the mountain, so if you have beginners in your family or with guests, they can literally stay right over on that side of the mountain, enjoy minimal lines on that quad and lap the trail comfortably.

my 2 cents


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## WWF-VT (Aug 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.



If you are considering buying slopeside at Okemo, then out-of-state property taxes are likely not a big factor in your purchase decision.


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## Highway Star (Aug 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.
> 
> Look at the Act 68 state school tax. It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.
> 
> ...


 
So it sounds like a really bad move.  

Where's your ski condo............?


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## Highway Star (Aug 25, 2010)

Mick_Shrimpton said:


> Hope this is the right place to post this thread.
> 
> I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure how familliar you are with the Ludlow area, but every time we drive through it we're impressed with how nice some of the houses are and the 4-season potential, off mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Not sure how familliar you are with the Ludlow area, but every time we drive through it we're impressed with how nice some of the houses are and the 4-season potential, off mountain.



After my folks rented on mountain, they bought off mountain near Lake Rescue and held that property for 15 years.  Even with the lakes and quaint downtown, Ludlow is still very much a ghost town in the summer time.

They're now snowbirds and own in Florida, but rent a house from a friend for the summer in Ludlow.  They're golfers and Okemo has a nice course, so they're satisfied.  Suppose the same could be said about Killington in Summer.  Seems that Manchester and Stowe and Woodstock to a lesser extent are really the only 'hopping' tourism towns during summer in VT.

I'm pointing this out to the OP such that he doesn't get his expectations high for getting rental income in the summer.  There are retirees like my folks who do summer there, but I'd venture to say 90% of the units in town if not more are empty during the summer.


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## Vortex (Aug 25, 2010)

I think I pay like $600 a year in taxes for a small slope side in Maine.  I think Geoff was getting at the many cost not known clearly.

All cost were an issue to me.  Nh and Maine were the only places that worked in my budget.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Aug 25, 2010)

we looked at buying at okemo and some other areas a few years back and decided against it for a slew of reasons including the math at the end of the day...just didnt make sense.  I didnt want to get locked into one hill, my kids are growing and once they get involved with winter sports/friends those weekends may dwindle...now we go where we want, when we want and we are still in the green vs owning and not paying mortgage, taxes, utilities when we arent there 6-7 mo out of the year....


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## Masskier (Aug 25, 2010)

For many people it is more of a life style choice.  I can't tell you how much we enjoy our slopeside Condo at Burke.  The memories that we have as a family far outweighs the cost.  Actually, right now is probably the best time there's ever been to invest in a ski condo.  Who knows, if you buy right, you may even make money on it someday.  check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2010)

Masskier said:


> For many people it is more of a life style choice.  I can't tell you how much we enjoy our slopeside Condo at Burke.  The memories that we have as a family far outweighs the cost.  Actually, right now is probably the best time there's ever been to invest in a ski condo.  Who knows, if you buy right, you may even make money on it someday.  check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com



Agree.  The lifestyle isn't for everyone, and many of your non-skiing/riding friends will look at you funny when you basically aren't at your "real" home on weekends from basically Thanksgiving until mid/late April,  but it is a lifetstyle that if it fits you is well worth all the miles of driving and mega backlog of "around the real house" projects that build up all during ski season!


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## Angus (Aug 25, 2010)

Masskier said:


> check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com



Masskier - is this where you bought? Is this the development that was being advertised in the Boston Globe continuously? I've previously questioned the pricing - I'm not particularly familiar with the market for slope side condos but $1mm+ seemed steep. There are several families in our town who have places at Burke and they all love it up there - really all four seasons. A bunch of the kids then seem to migrate to Burke Academy - more $$$$!!


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## Geoff (Aug 25, 2010)

Bob R said:


> I think I pay like $600 a year in taxes for a small slope side in Maine.  I think Geoff was getting at the many cost not known clearly.
> 
> All cost were an issue to me.  Nh and Maine were the only places that worked in my budget.



The costs are known.   The problem is that no realtor is going to tell you  about the 1 1/4% transfer tax, the ever-climbing Act 68 state school tax commercial rate, or the fact that when you sell, the state income tax treats it as regular income taxed at a pretty high rate.

When I bought my place, my property taxes were that $600.   They're now about $4,200.   If I were doing it all over again in Vermont, I'd do a season rental every year.   No way I'd ever consider buying vacation home property in the state.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2010)

Doesn't VT also have an 'anti-speculation' law whereby they nail you if you don't keep your property for at least 7 years?  I thought I read they had something like that in place to discourage flipping in resort towns as such practices were driving up values and making homes no longer affordable for locals.


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## Masskier (Aug 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Doesn't VT also have an 'anti-speculation' law whereby they nail you if you don't keep your property for at least 7 years?  I thought I read they had something like that in place to discourage flipping in resort towns as such practices were driving up values and making homes no longer affordable for locals.



You are talking about the Land gains tax.  It is phased out over 6 years and only applies to the land.  So with Condos it is really no big deal in as much they only consider 10% of the sales price to be land.


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## Masskier (Aug 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.
> 
> Look at the Act 68 state school tax.   It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.
> 
> ...



Real estate property taxes are high in  VT.  Just got my tax bill today.  the non residential (for us out of staters) tax rate in Burke is about $1.82 per $100 of assess value. that includes the state school tas

Closing costs are higher than Ma.

Not sure what you mean by the capital gains tax,  The federal rate is 15% and with the state rate of 9.4% that a total of 24.4%  That is still much lower than most condo buyers ordinary tax rate and only 4% higher than Ma.


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## Masskier (Aug 25, 2010)

Angus said:


> Masskier - is this where you bought? Is this the development that was being advertised in the Boston Globe continuously? I've previously questioned the pricing - I'm not particularly familiar with the market for slope side condos but $1mm+ seemed steep. There are several families in our town who have places at Burke and they all love it up there - really all four seasons. A bunch of the kids then seem to migrate to Burke Academy - more $$$$!!



Yes and Yes, I am the owner/developer of the Bear Path Townhomes. Currently prices start at 695k, That's about 275$ per SF.  that is less than 1/2 of what a similar property would sell for slope side at other area's.  For example the Bixby house at Jackson Gore (Okemo) is offered today in the $450 to $600 pSF range.  Burke is a great area, people are just starting to discover it.  The junior race program is recognized as the best program in the US.


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## stomachdoc (Aug 25, 2010)

Masskier said:


> Yes and Yes, I am the owner/developer of the Bear Path Townhomes. Currently prices start at 695k, That's about 275$ per SF.  that is less than 1/2 of what a similar property would sell for slope side at other area's.  For example the Bixby house at Jackson Gore (Okemo) is offered today in the $450 to $600 pSF range.  Burke is a great area, people are just starting to discover it.  The junior race program is recognized as the best program in the US.



No offense to you Masskier, and those Bear Townhomes look absolutely stunning, but buying real estate on Burke Mountain given the very tenuous situation with the ownership of the mountain would be a very risky investment.  I agree, potentially one with a huge upside if the plans set out by Ginn ever came to fruition, but, unless someone has so much disposable income that they wouldn't notice a several hundred thousand dollar loss if Burke goes belly-up, then I would seriously advise against it.  I say this as a real fan of Burke and someone who truly hopes it survives, but potential investors need to understand the risk.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 25, 2010)

Anyone own slopeside at Okemo that can respond to the original questions from Mick Shrimpton?


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## UVSHTSTRM (Aug 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The costs are known.   The problem is that no realtor is going to tell you  about the 1 1/4% transfer tax, the ever-climbing Act 68 state school tax commercial rate, or the fact that when you sell, the state income tax treats it as regular income taxed at a pretty high rate.
> 
> When I bought my place, my property taxes were that $600.   They're now about $4,200.   If I were doing it all over again in Vermont, I'd do a season rental every year.   No way I'd ever consider buying vacation home property in the state.



I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property.  I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that.  Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away.  It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property.  I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that.  Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away.  It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.



Though property taxes are high, I have appreciably more disposable income making the same salary living in NH than I did in ME or than I would in VT.

Not only is there no income tax and no sales tax, but I find the cost of goods to be much lower here as well.


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## riverc0il (Aug 26, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property.  I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that.  Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away.  It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.



Don't completely give up on the idea. My perspective would be to find a small shack in the woods not near the mountain. Sure, not slope side. But you could get a nice vacation shack for $100k or less. Since taxes are a percent of value, you just gotta find a cheap place so you don't take as big of a tax hit. I don't know if I would ever go that route. I had planned on doing that in NH before I moved up here. But now I do a lot of skiing in VT at 2+ hours away and it is a long term option for me depending how the finances go.

I don't see the value in slopeside more due to the initial asking price than the taxes. But I think if you can afford the sticker price, the taxes likely won't be much of an issue. $4k per year rolled into monthly payments would be an extra $310/ month or so? Folks looking to purchase a second home (and one slopeside, at that) can likely afford the taxes. I live in a non-ski condo complex that has a LOT of second home MA folks that come up weekends only. It always boggles my mind that what we bought on a stretch, they bought for a weekend get a way that they only use 50 days out of the year. I don't the extra $2k in taxes compared to MA or NH or whereever is really going to make much difference.


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## Masskier (Aug 26, 2010)

stomachdoc said:


> No offense to you Masskier, and those Bear Townhomes look absolutely stunning, but buying real estate on Burke Mountain given the very tenuous situation with the ownership of the mountain would be a very risky investment.  I agree, potentially one with a huge upside if the plans set out by Ginn ever came to fruition, but, unless someone has so much disposable income that they wouldn't notice a several hundred thousand dollar loss if Burke goes belly-up, then I would seriously advise against it.  I say this as a real fan of Burke and someone who truly hopes it survives, but potential investors need to understand the risk.



No offense taken.  The reality is Burke has never been in a stronger position.  Ginn has been out of the picture for almost 2 years.  Burke has been owned since 2005 by a private equity fund out of PA.  Ginn was their developer/minority partner.  The owner has invested millions to date, not only in infrastructure, but also in the planing, design, engineering, permitting of their master plan.  All this has been done with cash and Burke remains debt free with no mortgage.  The act 250 process is 99% complete.  However I do agree that Investors needs to understand the risks in any investment.


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## drjeff (Aug 26, 2010)

For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route).  What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners,  those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see


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## UVSHTSTRM (Aug 26, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Though property taxes are high, I have appreciably more disposable income making the same salary living in NH than I did in ME or than I would in VT.
> 
> Not only is there no income tax and no sales tax, but I find the cost of goods to be much lower here as well.



No I totally agree.  I am originally from Maine, then went to school in NH and have stayed ever sense, I think I am going on 14 years now and you could not be more spot on.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Aug 26, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Don't completely give up on the idea. My perspective would be to find a small shack in the woods not near the mountain. Sure, not slope side. But you could get a nice vacation shack for $100k or less. Since taxes are a percent of value, you just gotta find a cheap place so you don't take as big of a tax hit. I don't know if I would ever go that route. I had planned on doing that in NH before I moved up here. But now I do a lot of skiing in VT at 2+ hours away and it is a long term option for me depending how the finances go.
> 
> I don't see the value in slopeside more due to the initial asking price than the taxes. But I think if you can afford the sticker price, the taxes likely won't be much of an issue. $4k per year rolled into monthly payments would be an extra $310/ month or so? Folks looking to purchase a second home (and one slopeside, at that) can likely afford the taxes. I live in a non-ski condo complex that has a LOT of second home MA folks that come up weekends only. It always boggles my mind that what we bought on a stretch, they bought for a weekend get a way that they only use 50 days out of the year. I don't the extra $2k in taxes compared to MA or NH or whereever is really going to make much difference.



No I hear you, I guess my bigger point was that 4200 for Vermont seemed high, but again I don't know the circumstances (house size and the fact that after looking at vermont tax laws they seem soooooo over the top).  My wife and I would never buy on mountain or slopeside.  We would have something on a pond/lake and start of with just land, then build slowely on it.  Most likely it would be NH or Me, but Vt is always a possibility.  My wife and I are still young so we are in no hurry.  Afterall, living in anyone of these three states you are within an hours drive of a ski resort.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 26, 2010)

drjeff said:


> For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route).  What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners,  those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see



I share your thoughts on this topic.  We did the seasonal rental for 5 years at $6000+ per season and always weighed seasonal rental vs purchase costs.  At the end of the day we now own a condo at the mountain, can go any time we want and enjoy all 4 seasons in VT.  Like the Mastercard commercial says the experience is "priceless".


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## Glenn (Aug 26, 2010)

We like our get away. The nice thing, we have a place to go every weekend; even in the "off season". That's been nice added bonus.


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## Morewood (Aug 26, 2010)

Mick_Shrimpton said:


> Hope this is the right place to post this thread.
> 
> I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.
> 
> ...



Hi Ray,

I own at Trailside at Okemo and can say that my rental income is robust. That being said, my unit is direct access to the Sachem trail...I literally open my door click into my skis and I'm on the slope...or I can hike 25 yards and be on the glades peak quad...rental income is all about location at Trailside...some units require a private shuttle to bring you to the trail and some units require a walk across 2 parking areas and the road....Kettlebrook and Solitude are great too..I can answer questions through PM's if you'd like.


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## mlctvt (Aug 26, 2010)

drjeff said:


> For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route).  What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners,  those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see



Exactly.
My wife and I bought a condo at Mount Snow in 2005. It has totally transformed our lives. We used to hate winter or at least we disliked it considerably. I think we both suffered from some type of winter depression due to being cooped up inside all winter.  During spring/summer/fall we were always outside biking, hiking etc. Winter came and we were inside except the few weekends when we went skiing or the occasional hike or mountain biking we did in winter.  Now we ski every weekend from November through April. We look forward to ALL seasons of the year now. 

DrJeff is right about the finances. We could probably do a seasonal rental for less than what it costs us to keep our place but this place is ours, we can decorate it as we want, we can go there whenever we want. We can and do use it year round. It's so relaxing just to go there any time. It's a condo so there's nothing really to fix, no yard work to do. When we go there we are forced to wind down. That feeling alone is priceless and it's why I can't ever see selling it.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2010)

Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?

It appears most here have condos, which are probably more secure and less of a target.  

Our family home in Ludlow was burlarlized 3 times over the 15 years of ownership.  The third time when we had a fairly strong alarm system.  All of the electronics stolen and booze stolen out of the house each time.  Surprisingly, not once was any ski gear stolen.

In the 60s, my grandfather had a vacation home near Ragged Mountain.  The house was robbed constantly.  Finally my grandfather staked out the house and caught the robber.  Robber spent a two years in jail and when he got out, burned my grandfathers cottage down.


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## drjeff (Aug 26, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?
> 
> It appears most here have condos, which are probably more secure and less of a target.
> 
> ...



None with my place(yet atleast *fingers crossed* ).  Granted I'm in a 240 townhouse development where my place is located roadwise about 85% of the way into the complex so I'm not exactly easy in/easy out from the main road.  Plus between the onsite maintenance folks, and the fact that about 5 units down from me I have neighbors for whom their townhouse is their primary residence so they're there all the time, theres almost almost someone passing by multiple times per day


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## Glenn (Aug 26, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?



We've been lucky...fingers crossed. Our neighbors behind us are up and down the road all day...and they're always keeping an eye out since we're not there. There were a rash of break ins last year, but it was a bunch of kids breaking in to steal booze. They were targeting weekender houses.


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## crank (Aug 26, 2010)

We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it.  If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses.  I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market.  I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)

Question on property taxes.  I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities.  Is this not so?  Does it not apply to non residents?  I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 26, 2010)

Vermont Real Estate Tax info:

http://www.vermontrealestatetoday.com/newsletter/vtrealestatetaxes.html


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## UVSHTSTRM (Aug 26, 2010)

crank said:


> We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it.  If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses.  I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market.  I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)
> 
> Question on property taxes.  I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities.  Is this not so?  Does it not apply to non residents?  I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.



Don't think resort town matters, you just need to be a flat lander/non resident and have a second home in Vermont and then you will be required to pay the non residential school tax.  However I am not sure if there are more taxes for non residents then just that.


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## bigbob (Aug 27, 2010)

crank said:


> We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it.  If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses.  I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market.  I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)
> 
> Question on property taxes.  I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities.  Is this not so?  Does it not apply to non residents?  I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.



Paging Geoff, he needs your insight to your second favorite subject!


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## laxski (Aug 27, 2010)

we have owned at Mt. Snow for 10 yrs a condo that has a ski-home trail. If you buy make sure you will not be bored with the mountain, i think Okemo is fine. Slope-side is great with kids takes alot of the stress out of skiing. If you have kids age plays a big factor ours were 4 and 7 when we bought so we went up alot 25+ days of skiing a year and it was worth every penny even with 4-5 hour drives each way. Once high school started sports social school work does get in the way. This year as a family we might just make Thankgiving, X-mas, and 4 days Pres.week so no passes this year for the first time in 10 years.So at this point does it make financial sense at this point probably not but I played 2 rounds of golf up there this summer for the first time and discovered another season. We have kept a journal of every trip we have taken in the 10 years and each of us has taken turns writing in it so we have so many great memories. On a side note Dr. Jeff my daughters and I took our 1st lift ride up as property owners on the Nitro Express in 2001 you were telling us you had just gotten back from Utah


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## Vince (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi Ray

I own at Jackson Gore but before buying there I often rented in some of the complexes you mentioned. Once you accept the idea that this is not a money makeing venture your ready......Regardless your gonna have to go up there and check unit by unit. Slopeside can mean click and ski or it can mean a long walk over a few snow banks. Proximity to pools same thing. Snowmakeing guns blasting all night long etc.... Have not stayed at  Kettlebrook and not sure which complex Slopeside refers to. But Winterplace(top of the beginer chairs) and Solitude are both good locations. Each complex has its own swimming pools. Solitude is heated outdoors, Kettlebrook is indoors you might have access to the Spring House at Jackson Gore also. Solitude has better views if your up the hill. Always been impressed by the snow plowing, shoveling, staff and effort to get the condo connector trails open......My number one tip is to make sure you get a place where you can ski to a chair that is NOT at the base lodge. You want to avoid the mob scene at the base area and the extra lift ride out of the base. Even weekdays this a hassle. You will be much less aggrevated when your kids say they are cold after 2 runs.....Your best bet is to go up there in the off season when its dead and have a real estate person show you around...... Price it out vs renting. I think you can rent a 2br/2 bth at Kettlebrook for about 25k a season.......If you were to rent night by night probably slightly less than 1k a night........Im glad i did it. Would do it again


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## skizoo (Aug 28, 2010)

We own a 2 BR at Kettlebrook. We rented seasonally for a few years before buying. As others have said, do not look at this as an investment or a money making opportunity, it's not going to happen, it is a lifestyle choice.

Regarding ski in ski out, you have to be careful, the actual number of units on the entire mountain that are true ski in ski out is far less than advertised. Slopeside does not equal ski in ski out. You need to ask specifically of even better just go look around.

Kettle Brook has 10 buildings only 3 of which are ski in ski out, and really 2 of those you couldn't ski to your door, fortunately ours is true ski in ski out. We can ski right out the door or right back to the door as we are on the Kettle Brook trail. But not all buildings on that trail are ski in ski out. 

Winterplace has by far the most units and many of them can be had for a lot less than listed price as they are oversaturated with listings, but there are only a few there that are close to being ski in ski out.  

Okemo is a great location as it is so close to so many other areas. I'm 23 mins, door to K skyeship and not much longer to Pico, Magic about 25-30 mins, Bromley, the same, Stratton maybe 35-40 mins.. it's a good region with a lot of options.. but I can still go out my back door and click em on and go..

As another reply stated, you have to be careful of location as a lot of the ski in ski out locations are going to have a lot of snow gun noise.. Our location is quiet and private..

All the things others have said about costs and taxes are largely accurate, taxes are high, HOA fees are high, but there are bargains available right now, we use our place and only rent a few weeks per year during the big holidays. 

We know we made the right choice for us, sure it costs us money, but we like it a lot better than renting. We can do what we want with the place, it's our furniture, our bedding, our TV's, to us it's a second home..

Here's a link to the condo maps for Okemo, to give you an idea of where buildings are located in relation to the trails.

http://www.okemorealestate.com/article/archive/1994/


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## Rogman (Aug 29, 2010)

Vacation home ownership sucks financially, however, of all my lousy investments, it is by far my favorite :smile:. When you factor in all the costs, no way you come out ahead, short term or long term. Condo fees, utilities, taxes, maintenance, it is just endless. Add on top of that the cost of passes, equipment, gas, tolls, auto wear and tear, it would be cheaper to stand outside in blizzard tearing up hundred dollar bills; it's worse than sailing in that respect. For the next few years, I wouldn't expect any real-estate investment to do well; the long years of steady 8% to 10% growth are over, and because it is highly leveraged, the possibility of losing all your principal is very real. But do it anyway, you won't be sorry.


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