# Ski 3 - WF, Gore, Bell



## highpeaksdrifter (Feb 28, 2013)

JimG. said:


> I would seriously consider a 3 in 1 pass. .



Time for you to start considering Jim. This is from the Belleayre website.

http://www.belleayre.com/winter/skiport.htm


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## emmaurice2 (Feb 28, 2013)

crazy that the three pass is only a little more than $100 more than a belle full season pass


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## ScottySkis (Feb 28, 2013)

Wow still high, but they actually put it together quickly.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 28, 2013)

emmaurice2 said:


> *crazy that the three pass is only a little more than $100 more than a belle full season pass*



It's only $70 more if you buy it early when the smart shoppers do.  

My predictions:

1) Most Bellayre SPH will choose this slightly more expensive 3 in 1 pass option, and this will ironically hurt Bellayre in 2013/14.

2) The price on the 3 in 1 pass option will be increased for 2014/15 and/or the Bellayre only pass price will be decreased.

Both moves will be done in an effort to "protect" Bellayre.


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## emmaurice2 (Feb 28, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's only $70 more if you buy it early when the smart shoppers do.
> 
> My predictions:
> 
> ...



Wow, good thing I'm not a mathmetician or an accountant.


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2013)

This is good news! Now I will have a month or so to plan out what I'm going to do.

They are clearly going after some of Hunter's market...the 3 in 1 pass is priced only about $10 higher than a Hunter only season pass if you buy early. 

That's a pretty good deal, one that will be very hard to pass up.

Edit: my bad, the 3 in 1 pass will be $10 LESS than a Hunter only pass if purchased early. WOW!


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## highpeaksdrifter (Feb 28, 2013)

You do have a month to decide, but for those who know they want to buy a 3 for 1, if they buy now they can start using it this season...March 10 to the end plus all next season.


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> You do have a month to decide, but for those who know they want to buy a 3 for 1, if they buy now they can start using it this season...March 10 to the end plus all next season.



So now I have $739 burning a hole in my pocket. Planning to visit my son at RIT next month, maybe hit WF on the way home...decisions, decisions!


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## x10003q (Feb 28, 2013)

JimG. said:


> So now I have $739 burning a hole in my pocket. Planning to visit my son at RIT next month, maybe hit WF on the way home...decisions, decisions!



WF is not exactly on the way home for you, is it? 

This pass is a huge deal for Belleayre skiers.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Feb 28, 2013)

x10003q said:


> This pass is a huge deal for Belleayre skiers.



It seems that way to me too. Bell pass holders can still do their day trips at Bell. For the couple of dollars more it would cost them to add 3 for 1, they can do weekend trips or ski vacations at WF/LP and Gore and the lift tickets cost them nothing. That's a hugh savings.


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## catskills (Feb 28, 2013)

Gore lists a slightly different season pass offering for Whiteface/Gore and then ADD Belleayre.

http://www.goremountain.com/tickets-passes/passes.cfm


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2013)

x10003q said:


> WF is not exactly on the way home for you, is it?
> 
> This pass is a huge deal for Belleayre skiers.



No, it is not.

Holiday Valley and Bristol are the local hills there.

But for next season, WF is about the same distance as Killington is for me. Gore is closer.

My quandry is sacrificing Hunter's terrain and skiing Belleayre instead; the trade off is the availability of WF and Gore.


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## dmc (Feb 28, 2013)

JimG. said:


> My quandry is sacrificing Hunter's terrain and skiing Belleayre instead



You'll miss it..  Not a good idea...


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2013)

dmc said:


> You'll miss it..  Not a good idea...



No argument...I would have pulled the trigger already but for this.

I don't dislike Belleayre, but I wouldn't be able to ski there more than 2 weekends a month. 

Still looking at other expenses that would be involved too.


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## dmc (Feb 28, 2013)

JimG. said:


> I don't dislike Belleayre, but I wouldn't be able to ski there more than 2 weekends a month.



I like it too... But I'm good for twice a year...


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2013)

dmc said:


> I like it too... But I'm good for twice a year...



Yeah, but the addition of Gore and especially WF helps relieve mid-season complacency.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 28, 2013)

It really is very indicting pass to want to buy, but I stick with Elk because of the price of gas.


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## 4aprice (Feb 28, 2013)

dmc said:


> You'll miss it..  Not a good idea...



I would certainly take Hunter over Belleayre, but the option of 2 other mountains would be much more interesting.  I like this trend of multi mountain passes as we see here and in NH.  Maybe Hunter should be looking to team up with others.  Put together 3 or 4 good Mts and I would certainly be interested.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## ScottySkis (Feb 28, 2013)

4aprice said:


> I would certainly take Hunter over Belleayre, but the option of 2 other mountains would be much more interesting.  I like this trend of multi mountain passes as we see here and in NH.  Maybe Hunter should be looking to team up with others.  Put together 3 or 4 good Mts and I would certainly be interested.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Hunter/ platty pass combo would be awesome.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 28, 2013)

I forgot my price chopper pass book has a $50 off coupon for Gore for purchase of a season pass for next year. I believe it has to be purchased in March , maybe at Gore. I am not going to use so first person to let me know they want it, and I will mail it out.


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## abc (Feb 28, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> My predictions:
> 
> 1) Most Bellayre SPH will choose this slightly more expensive 3 in 1 pass option, and this will ironically hurt Bellayre in 2013/14.
> 
> ...


I can see it'll hurt the sale of Bell-only passes. But why would that hurt Bell?


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 28, 2013)

abc said:


> *I can see it'll hurt the sale of Bell-only passes. But why would that hurt Bell?*



Giving Belleayre customers (or any businesses customers) more "choice" is not a good thing when all the other choices are better than you - in this case substantially so.

There is a lot of psychology that goes on in the mind of a buyer, and a lot of it isnt always rational. My bet is that many of the same guys who now says:

_Gore/Whiteface is better, but it's too far for me to drive and gas is expensive_,_ I'm skiing at Bellayre_

are many of the same guys who will next year say:

_Gore/Whiteface is free?  Well, I guess I can justify the drive/gas skiing there instead of Bellayre now.  It's a longer drive, but way better terrain._

Even if the impact results in a 3 or 4 weekend/month Bell skier now being a 1 or 2 weekend/month Bell skier, the impact will be substantial.  And my bet is there will be some 3 or 4 weekend/month Bell skiers who will become 0 to 1 weekend/month Bell skiers once they develop a taste for vertical.


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## abc (Mar 1, 2013)

ooops


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## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 1, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Giving Belleayre customers (or any businesses customers) more "choice" is not a good thing when all the other choices are better than you - in this case substantially so.
> 
> There is a lot of psychology that goes on in the mind of a buyer, and a lot of it isnt always rational. My bet is that many of the same guys who now says:
> 
> ...



Aren’t you still seeing Bell as a separate entity when nowthey are part of ORDA? ORDA doesn’t want to hurt Bell they want them to do better. I’ve heard that Bell’s revenue is way up under ORDA management.  I think you’ll find that ORDA does some major investment in Bell over the next several years just as they have for WF andGore.  They want all their venues to have success.

Whether a 3 for 1 passholder goes to WF, Gore or Bell the money still goes into ORDA's coffers.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 1, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Aren’t you still seeing Bell as a separate entity when nowthey are part of ORDA? ORDA doesn’t want to hurt Bell they want them to do better. I’ve heard that Bell’s revenue is way up under ORDA management.  I think you’ll find that ORDA does some major investment in Bell over the next several years just as they have for WF andGore.  They want all their venues to have success.
> 
> Whether a 3 for 1 passholder goes to WF, Gore or Bell the money still goes into ORDA's coffers.



So why Orda.tell Bell to make snow with season coming to an end. So customers think they be staying open again the latest of players. Okay I will amit that because I want Platty to success and someday look like Elk growing over the years, so I don't think it fair to any other Catskills hill that Orda has no way of going bankruptcy. Maybe Bearpen would be open now with chairs and customers enjoying 2000 feet of trails, NY state to many stupid laws, great city though end rant an now.( slc soon)!


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## zyk (Mar 1, 2013)

Wow...  If there was a midweek version of this I would give up my Hunter pass immediately.  Gore is not too much farther than Hunter for me,  just a bit outside of my comfort zone for a half day trip (which I do regularly at Hunter).  Belleayre would be a bit of a sacrifice,  but still good for those half days trips.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 1, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> * ORDA doesn’t want to hurt Bell they want them to do better.*




Yes, and IMO this was a poor decision if you want to achieve that end.  I understand that they think they're helping Belleayre by putting it in a pass with Gore and Whiteface to glom off the other two's much larger popularity, but my belief is it will have an opposite effect in terms of skier visits. 

Obviously I could be wrong, but that's how I've wargamed the buyer psychology in my head.





highpeaksdrifter said:


> * Whether a 3 for 1 passholder goes to WF, Gore or Bell the money still goes into ORDA's coffers.*



If the above is truly their mindset, then financially speaking, they've already failed.



Scotty said:


> I don't think it fair to any other Catskills hill that Orda has no way of going bankruptcy.



Exactly correct.


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## JimG. (Mar 1, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Aren’t you still seeing Bell as a separate entity when nowthey are part of ORDA? ORDA doesn’t want to hurt Bell they want them to do better. I’ve heard that Bell’s revenue is way up under ORDA management.  I think you’ll find that ORDA does some major investment in Bell over the next several years just as they have for WF andGore.  They want all their venues to have success.
> 
> Whether a 3 for 1 passholder goes to WF, Gore or Bell the money still goes into ORDA's coffers.



If ORDA develops Belleayre as planned and increases vertical to 2000' by adding Highmount to the equation (regardless of annual snowfall), I feel they would improve Belleayre to the point where even if folks cut their skiing there in half and went to the other venues, Belleayre would still pick up more business from other Catskills resorts.


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## catskills (Mar 1, 2013)

Scotty said:


> I don't think it fair to any other Catskills hill that Orda has no way of going bankruptcy.


As long as ORDA operates in the BLACK no worries about bankruptcy right?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 1, 2013)

catskills said:


> *As long as ORDA operates in the BLACK no worries about bankruptcy right?*



ROFLMAO

You should go work for the government!


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## ScottySkis (Mar 1, 2013)

catskills said:


> As long as ORDA operates in the BLACK no worries about bankruptcy right?



But if you give away free tickets and don't generate money, you should be.bankruptcy like what has happens to many small hills that can't compete with NY state budget.


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## catskills (Mar 1, 2013)

Scotty said:


> But if you give away free tickets and don't generate money, you should be.bankruptcy like what has happens to many small hills that can't compete with NY state budget.


Yes but then you would be operating in the RED by spending more than you total revenue.


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## Harvey (Mar 1, 2013)

Scotty said:


> ...I want Platty to success...



IMO: Bell giving away 17,000 free lift tickets a year under the DEC hurt Platty a hell of a lot more than the Ski3 Pass ever will.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 1, 2013)

Harvey44 said:


> IMO: Bell giving away 17,000 free lift tickets a year under the DEC hurt Platty a hell of a lot more than the Ski3 Pass ever will.



That didn't help any of the Catskills, you get platty yet this season Harvey 44?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 1, 2013)

catskills said:


> Yes but then you would be operating in the RED by spending more than you total revenue.



You're starting to get the picture, but not really.



Harvey44 said:


> IMO: Bell giving away 17,000 free lift tickets a  year under the DEC hurt Platty a hell of a lot more than the Ski3 Pass  ever will.



Yeah, that pizzed me off huge.  Nothing like a government entity slitting the throats of private businesses.


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## Harvey (Mar 1, 2013)

Scotty said:


> That didn't help any of the Catskills, you get platty yet this season Harvey 44?



Hoping to get to Plattekill for my 3rd day this season on Sunday.

I don't see how this is bad for Belleayre.  Bell was with the DEC and got nothing. While I loathe Tony's flooding the market with free tickets, he had nothing to work with except tickets.  I think ORDA will improve Belleayre - slowly but steadily upgrading infrastructure.  It's not realistic to expect ORDA to do that and not try to maximize the value that Bell brings.

It looks like all the other pass options are still in play at Bell. So nobody will be turned away. And maybe, a family that takes a week in So or No VT may snag a Ski3 pass and hit Gore or Whiteface instead.

Yea I could be wrong. But the risk seems really low, and the potential upside looks larger to me.  If the ski falls next year because of the new pass, they can discontinue it or change the pricing.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 1, 2013)

Harvey44 said:


> Hoping to get to Plattekill for my 3rd day this season on Sunday.



Oh man enjoy her Sunday, I be at your mountain Gore Sunday, platty looking great for your return.


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## JimG. (Mar 1, 2013)

Harvey44 said:


> If the ski falls next year because of the new pass, they can discontinue it or change the pricing.



Which is what will probably happen anyway.

More reason to jump on the introductory offer.


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## x10003q (Mar 1, 2013)

JimG. said:


> Which is what will probably happen anyway.
> 
> More reason to jump on the introductory offer.



I disagree. I think this will introduce all three mountains to new people. The Hudson Valley and NY metro Gore and WF passholders might be inclined to spend a little more cash for the pass for Catskill day trips to Belleayre. Even when I had season passes for Gore/WF I still hit the Catskills a handful of times per season. Maybe some southern VT skiers who daytrip Belleayre might decide to give Gore and WF a try because of the value. 

I also think ORDA gives this pass many years to work. If Belleayre gets the planned upgrades and expansion the pass will have even greater value.


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## Harvey (Mar 1, 2013)

LOL I see that I wrote "if the ski falls" above instead of "sky"...

I also think Ski3 is here to stay.

It would be cool to combo Hunter with Killington. Somehow I don't think it would happen. But it would be cool.


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## marcski (Mar 1, 2013)

The Ski3 is interesting...but for the fact that I am not a fan of Belle at all.  So, doesn't really appeal to me. What is the Highmont terrain like?  Is there any continuous vert over there?

Harv, I'll keep an eye out for you on Sunday.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 2, 2013)

marcski said:


> The Ski3 is interesting...but for the fact that I am not a fan of Belle at all.  So, doesn't really appeal to me. What is the Highmont terrain like?  Is there any continuous vert over there?
> 
> Harv, I'll keep an eye out for you on Sunday.



+1: And most snow fall and no snow conditions being skiied off quickly on weekend hill which is so so fun is less then 20 miles from Bell.


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## JimG. (Mar 2, 2013)

x10003q said:


> I disagree. I think this will introduce all three mountains to new people. The Hudson Valley and NY metro Gore and WF passholders might be inclined to spend a little more cash for the pass for Catskill day trips to Belleayre. Even when I had season passes for Gore/WF I still hit the Catskills a handful of times per season. Maybe some southern VT skiers who daytrip Belleayre might decide to give Gore and WF a try because of the value.
> 
> I also think ORDA gives this pass many years to work. If Belleayre gets the planned upgrades and expansion the pass will have even greater value.



I was talking more about raising the price...but making upgrades to Belleayre before doing so would certainly be the best way to raise them.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 2, 2013)

JimG. said:


> I was talking more about raising the price...but making upgrades to Belleayre before doing so would certainly be the best way to raise them.



Upgrades yes, that would be good for everyone.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2013)

x10003q said:


> I disagree.* I think this will introduce all three mountains to new people. The Hudson Valley and NY metro Gore and WF passholders might be inclined to spend a little more cash for the pass for Catskill day trips to Belleayre.* Even when I had season passes for Gore/WF I still hit the Catskills a handful of times per season. Maybe some southern VT skiers who daytrip Belleayre might decide to give Gore and WF a try because of the value.



IMO, that's largely a pipedream.   For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone in Albany, etc... would ski at Belleayre instead of Gore, other than perhaps 1 day a year for ***** and giggles.  But the number of Bell skiers on a 3-pass that will now be drawn to Gore and Whiteface will dwarf that sum.

If I had a pass to Bellayre, Gore, and Whiteface, I would be skiing virtually exclusively at Gore or Whiteface, even living where I do in New Jersey.   On longer trips I'd go to Vermont, and if there were times when the drive were an issue and I could only daytrip to the Catskills, I'd rather spend a few dollars and BOGO Plattekill or Hunter than ski at Belleayre.  

FWIW, the people I knew that skied at Bell from NYC, did so during the days of "BOGO Madness", and havent ski there much now that that doesnt exist anymore.  I'd be very interested to know what Belleayres total skier visit metric comes out to this year, as my assumption is that while last year is not an appropriate comp, it will be down versus the few years prior.  I'd be fascinated to see the financials for all 3 hills.


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## x10003q (Mar 2, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, that's largely a pipedream.   For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone in Albany, etc... would ski at Belleayre instead of Gore, other than perhaps 1 day a year for ***** and giggles.



I should have been more specific - from about Kingston south to the NY metro. I agree nobody from Albany will be going to Belleayre. But that was not what I was refering to. Kingston to Gore is about 2:15, Kingston to Belleayre is about :45. That is a big difference in time and gas. 



BenedictGomez said:


> But the number of Bell skiers on a 3-pass that will now be drawn to Gore and Whiteface will dwarf that sum.If I had a pass to Bellayre, Gore, and Whiteface, I would be skiing virtually exclusively at Gore or Whiteface, even living where I do in New Jersey.



Not everybody has the money/time to spend every weekend at Gore/WF. If you are talking about day tripping to Gore or even WF from the NY metro area, you are one of the few. I am a little over three hours from Gore and I will never day trip Gore. I also have kids and I would not day trip them longer than the 2 hours it takes to get to Plattekill. As I said, when I had a season pass at Gore, we would still day trip to the Catskills when we couldn't get to Gore. 




BenedictGomez said:


> On longer trips I'd go to Vermont, and if there were times when the drive were an issue and I could only daytrip to the Catskills, I'd rather spend a few dollars and BOGO Plattekill or Hunter than ski at Belleayre.  FWIW, the people I knew that skied at Bell from NYC, did so during the days of "BOGO Madness", and havent ski there much now that that doesnt exist anymore.  I'd be very interested to know what Belleayres total skier visit metric comes out to this year, as my assumption is that while last year is not an appropriate comp, it will be down versus the few years prior.  I'd be fascinated to see the financials for all 3 hills.



If I had a 3 pass available when I had my Gore/WF pass I would have certainly skied Belleayre.


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## abc (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, that's largely a pipedream. For the life of me, I have no idea why anyone in Albany, etc... would ski at Belleayre instead of Gore, other than perhaps 1 day a year for ***** and giggles. But the number of Bell skiers on a 3-pass that will now be drawn to Gore and Whiteface will dwarf that sum.


I don't know how much experience you have in running a ski mountain. I freely admit I have none. 

But the way I see it, their strategy is not to pull anyone from Albany but to entice non-pass holder from the south to start thinking about getting a pass. People who ski Bell often but not quite regular enough to buy a pass, but spend a weekend in WF or Gore without pass. They might be tempted to get a 3-in-1 pass because now they can use it on the "big mountains"!

That's why the hyperthetical Hunter-Killington pass would be a killer. Because for every Catskill skier who doesn't buy a Catskill pass, they're spending some of the skiing time in a big mountain somewhere north, randomly. Find the right combo, some of them might bite!

Ski pass sale is not neccessarily a zero-sum game.


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## witch hobble (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, that pizzed me off huge.  Nothing like a government entity slitting the throats of private businesses.



Whoa.......Nellie!  Holy hyperbolic metaphor or metaphoric hyperbole or something.  Far more like a slow poisoning.  Or cancer maybe if you must be so morbid.

I think combo passes like this and the NH one (Cannon, WV, BW, Cranmore) are probably gonna shake out as beneficial to the skiing public in general.  I guess we'll see.  Are there VT combos available?  Jay/Burke.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Okay I will amit that because I want Platty to success and someday look like Elk growing over the year



Be careful what you wish for..


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

abc said:


> But the way I see it, their strategy is not to pull anyone from Albany but to* entice non-pass holder from the south to start thinking about getting a pass. People who ski Bell often but not quite regular enough to buy a pass*, but spend a weekend in WF or Gore without pass. They might be tempted to get a 3-in-1 pass because now they can use it on the "big mountains"!



If I were Belleayre management, I'd want the people who ski "often but not quite enough" to justify a pass to stay that way.  The last thing I'd want is my loyal customers who ski almost enough to warrant a full blown season pass, to now have a "free" option to spend as many ski days as they want at mountains that are 10x better than Belleayre, and are just a mere 1 hour or 2 hour additional drive.  I may be wrong, but I still view this as a bad business decision.



witch hobble said:


> Far more like a slow poisoning.  Or cancer maybe if you must be so morbid.



Death by 1000 cuts?


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nothing like a government entity slitting the throats of private businesses.


Hunter, Windham and Plattekill have been whining for years that Belleayre was going to put them out of business. Hasn't happened yet.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> Hunter, Windham and Plattekill have been whining for years that Belleayre was going to put them out of business. Hasn't happened yet.



The exposure of Belleayre's predatory business practices using our tax money against private businesses - may be the reason why.

Even Plattekill joined the conversation after the Belleayre BOGO...  They stand to be hurt more badly by this than the mighty Hunter or Windham.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> *Hunter, Windham* *and Plattekill have been whining for years that Belleayre was going to put them out of business*. *Hasn't happened yet.*




Hunter and Windham were definitely hurt by Belleayre's practices, and definitely did complain about it (as they should), but they both have the scale and a better product to remain in business.

Plattekill, however, is small enough and geographically located in such a way that it could most definitely be put out of business by unfair competitive practices.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2011/01/06/news/doc4d252349602d1366541341.txt


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

All you've done is provided links to the whining, not demonstrated that Bellayre has actually "cut their throats" or threatens to do so.

If it were up to me, New York State wouldn't be in the ski business. However, it is written into the state constitution and practically impossible to alter. If they're going to be in that business, it does mean competing with other local ski areas. Those other areas have a lot to offer that Belleayre can't or won't, so their complaints strike me as off-base and selfish.

Sure, if you're Hunter you'd rather be the only game around. As a skier, I'd rather have more options, not fewer.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2011/01/06/news/doc4d252349602d1366541341.txt



But it was even worse than that. 

 It wasnt just that deal in that article.  They had for several years completely papered the market with Belleayre BOGOs.  If you were a value skier/rider, and you knew where to look, you'd practically trip and fall over on all the free Belleayre tickets.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> Sure, if you're Hunter you'd rather be the only game around. As a skier, I'd rather have more options, not fewer.



All they wanted was fair competition that was not funded by our NYS taxes...
Belleayre wasn't practicing fair business practices...  Simple as that..  

*Nobody* wanted anything(Belleayre) to shut down so the could be the "only game around"... *
Everybody *knows that business begets business...


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> But it was even worse than that.
> 
> It wasnt just that deal in that article.  They had for several years completely papered the market with Belleayre BOGOs.  If you were a value skier/rider, and you knew where to look, you'd practically trip and fall over on all the free Belleayre tickets.



I've NEVER paid for a Belleayre lift ticket...


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> Be careful what you wish for..



I know more business would bring more people, maybe they have more trails to cut. And Elk ski conditions are usually pretty good all day on weekends.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

Scotty said:


> I know more business would bring more people, maybe they have more trails to cut. And Elk ski conditions are usually pretty good all day on weekends.



Cut trails on the glades?  Why would you want that?

Too much popularity will change Plattekill...  Guaranteed...


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## legalskier (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hunter and Windham were definitely hurt by Belleayre's practices, and definitely did complain about it (as they should), but they both have the scale and a better product to remain in business.
> 
> Plattekill, however, is small enough and geographically located in such a way that it could most definitely be put out of business by unfair competitive practices.



We've had this discussion so many times- the pure free-market model vs the state run facility model. I've never seen so much hostility to any one ski area based on an argument that assumes the free market always works best. The others are like ppl who buy a house on a Sunday next to a school, then complain about the school traffic on Monday. We've been through this so many times. Please.
Frankly, I don't ski there because it's a few bucks cheaper than the others. I have a history there, I like the vibe & the ppl, the trees, the less crowded conditions, even visit during summer.  Even at that, I ski at all four, just more at Belle. Each appeals to a _very different_ clientele- you can tell when you walk throug the front doors of the lodges at each.
That being said, "that was then, this is now." ORDA calls the shots now.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

legalskier said:


> I've never seen so much hostility to any one ski area based on an argument that assumes the free market always works best. The others are like ppl who buy a house on a Sunday next to a school, then complain about the school traffic on Monday. We've been through this so many times. Please.



The only hostility is all yours...  Such a victim...  

Nobody wanted Belleayre to close.  
Nobody wanted it to fail..
Nobody...

All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...  
Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$...    that's not quite "free market"...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...
> Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$...    that's not quite "free market"...



I would love to see Belleayre's financials.  I'd almost guarantee the rumors that they lose money each year are true.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> I would love to see Belleayre's financials.  I'd almost guarantee the rumors that they lose money each year are true.



Water under the bridge now... I guess...


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> All the competing Catskill areas wanted was for them to stop the predatory business practices...
> Mostly around ticket dumping using our tax $$... that's not quite "free market"...



The decision that the state would be in the ski business is written into the Constitution. As I said upthread, I never would have voted for that, but it's not (realistically) changeable now.

Who gets to decide which business practices are allowed? Belleayre operates at a significant disadvantage: antiquated and under-sized lodges, mediocre snow-making coverage, an odd trail and lift layout. It costs a certain fixed amount to open, whether you have 1 skier or 10,000. Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.



The way they did it was the wrong strategy for other businesses that are NOT subsidized with NYS tax money...  

The other mountains all had a right to complain..  And they did...
Belleayre also had a right to run their business well enough to invest in infrastructure..  And they did not...


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## marcski (Mar 4, 2013)

I don't understand how anyone could possibly even attempt to rationalize or claim that it wasn't totally bogus of New York State owned, Belle to flood the market with cheap and/or free tickets like they did.


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

marcski said:


> I don't understand how anyone could possibly even attempt to rationalize or claim that it wasn't totally bogus of New York State owned, Belle to flood the market with cheap and/or free tickets like they did.


I don't find anything bogus about it at all. What you're suggesting is that they should deliberately run the business badly.



dmc said:


> Belleayre also had a right to run their business well enough to invest in infrastructure.. And they did not...


In which case the other Catskill ski areas would complain that state resources are being used to make the state-run ski area more attractive, and steal business from private operators.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> In which case the other Catskill ski areas would complain that state resources are being used to make the state-run ski area more attractive, and steal business from private operators.



No - if they made normal business decisions and operated in the red and actually used money that they made operation a ski area rather than using tax money then who cares?    

It's the bad competition practices that made the competing areas mad.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> I don't find anything bogus about it at all. What you're suggesting is that they should deliberately run the business badly.




No - they should have run their business fairly..    And not used our tax $...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> *Belleayre operates at a significant disadvantage: antiquated and under-sized lodges, mediocre snow-making coverage, an odd trail and lift layout.* It costs a certain fixed amount to open, whether you have 1 skier or 10,000. *Giving away lift tickets was, therefore, probably the right strategy to attract customers* — given the premise that the state is in the ski business at all.



You. have. got. to. be. *******. kidding. me?

The fact that the above post is actually serious simply boggles my mind.


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

@BenedictGomez: Have you ever...like, been there? What part of "antiquated and under-sized lodges" or "odd trail and lift layout" do you disagree with?


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> No - if they made normal business decisions and operated in the red and actually used money that they made operation a ski area rather than using tax money then who cares?


If a state-run ski area operated in the red, where do you think the money would come from to make up the shortfall? The state, of course.


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## marcski (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> @BenedictGomez: Have you ever...like, been there? What part of "antiquated and under-sized lodges" or "odd trail and lift layout" do you disagree with?



I'm pretty positive that wasn't the part of your quote that he was referring to....!


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

oakapple said:


> If a state-run ski area operated in the red, where do you think the money would come from to make up the shortfall? The state, of course.



I don't want my tax money to go to mismanagement of a ski area..
Ever...  

We need teachers... And fire fighters... And new bridges...  Not skiing...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

marcski said:


> I'm pretty positive that wasn't the part of your quote that he was referring to....!



Yup.



dmc said:


> I don't want my tax money to go to mismanagement of a ski area..
> Ever....



It's worse than that. 

 If Whiteface and Gore are profitable, and Belleayre is not, all Belleayre is doing is negatively impacting Windham, Hunter, and Plattekill, as well as decreasing the efficiency and success of the other two taxpayer supported NY mountains that are (presumably) doing well.  

I say presumably, because I know nothing of Gore's financials either, and it's not 100% obvious to me that they turn a profit either (I just suspect they do).  Whiteface is the only one I think we can all feel reasonably confident in its' revenue generating ability.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

Train should go more often to North Creek, then I might conserding the pass.


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## x10003q (Mar 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is way more complicated than just the 3 NYS ski areas. You need to read about what ORDA is all about. ORDA is very Lake Placid centric. Maybe that will change.

Gore has been cash flow positive for about the last 10 years and WF for most of the past 10 years. It seems that all the other venues in Lake Placid are cash flow negative, but that is hard to decipher.

The BOGO ticket discussion is very interesting. On one hand there are the complaints about our "tax dollars" supporting
such an unfair business practice and it should not be allowed. On the other hand, Belleayre should not be in the red. Maybe Belleayre thought this promotion would work to make the Belleayre numbers be cash flow positive. What if Hunter decided to do the same thing? It is not against the law. Are we allowed to tell Hunter it is not fair to hand out so many free tickets?

Is there a number of free tickets that would be approved for Belleayre or Hunter?

We want Belleayre to be run like a business, but one that does not try to compete with the other businesses in the area.

It is hard to have it both ways.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

x10003q said:


> *Gore has been cash flow positive for about the last 10 years and WF for most of the past 10 years*. It seems that all the other venues in Lake Placid are cash flow negative, but* that is hard to decipher.*



The fact that it's easier to come across nuclear launch codes than their financials worries me. 

 I was able to find from the annual report that Gore and Whiteface did about $7M and $9M in revenue last year.  Know what that means?  Absolutely nothing.  Because they dont include expense information (which worries me) = lol.  Top-line revenue is completely useless if you dont know the expenses associated with it.



x10003q said:


> The BOGO ticket discussion is very interesting. On one hand there are the complaints about our "tax dollars" supporting
> such an unfair business practice and it should not be allowed. On the other hand, *Belleayre should not be in the red. Maybe Belleayre thought this promotion would work to make the Belleayre numbers be cash flow positive.*


  Belleayre was supposedly already in the red, there's simply no excuse here.  

"Free", isn't a business model.




x10003q said:


> *We want Belleayre to be run like a business, but one that does not try to compete with the other businesses in the area*. It is hard to have it both ways.



Says who?  To be successful, of course Belleayre has to compete against Windham, Hunter, and Plattekill.  

There's a difference between "competing" and "unfair taxpayer funded predatory practices", which is what Belleayre was doing. 

 If Hunter gave out zillions of free tickets, Hunter would go out of business.  But Belleayre CAN harm the others by giving out zillions of free tickets, because it can artificially survive due to the neverending influx of $$$$ coming from New York State Citizen's Paychecks.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

In case anyone is interested in this sort of thing, ORDA lost $17M last year and $14M the year before from operations.  As I mentioned, I couldnt get a Gore/Whiteface breakout, though those two entities account for more than 1/2 of ORDA's revenue (about 57%).  

 And as I've mentioned, I've never been able to find any sort of transparency on Belleayre's financials. If someone has that info, please do post.


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## witch hobble (Mar 4, 2013)

When you call yourself "the Empire State", it shouldn't come as too much of a shock to the populace that there are authorities (corporate instruments of the state) and entities competing with private business or publicly traded companies.  I mean what do you guys have over there?  Thruways, canals, millions of acres of forest preserve, beaches, ports, parks, liquor, gambling.  Skiing and snowboarding and lift tickets are small potatoes.  Not telling you not to give a shit;  I just don't here Mainers bashing vacationing, VTers bashing green mountains, Cters bashing the constitution, or New Hampshirites bashing the choice between living free or dying.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

witch hobble said:


> When you call yourself "the Empire State", it shouldn't come as too much of a shock to the populace that there are authorities (corporate instruments of the state) and entities competing with private business or publicly traded companies.  I mean what do you guys have over there?  Thruways, canals, millions of acres of forest preserve, beaches, ports, parks, liquor, gambling.  Skiing and snowboarding and lift tickets are small potatoes.  Not telling you not to give a shit;  I just don't here Mainers bashing vacationing, VTers bashing green mountains, Cters bashing the constitution, or New Hampshirites bashing the choice between living free or dying.



Come to think of it..  Subsidizing a ski area that caters to mainly out of state people is something I don't like either..

And VT'rs bash out of staters just because of the color of their license plate..


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

x10003q said:


> Is there a number of free tickets that would be approved for Belleayre,_(Plattekill)_ or Hunter?



As many as they want - assuming they are funding it themselves and not with my $...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> As many as they want - assuming they are funding it themselves and not with my $...



There are probably dozens of NY state parks operating in the red that are funded with your tax dollars.  Should those be privatized too?


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> There are probably dozens of NY state parks operating in the red that are funded with your tax dollars.  Should those be privatized too?



People need parks and green spaces...  They do not need ski slopes or golf courses...   

And I never said it needed to be privatized just financially operated better...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2013)

I don't know, it just seems to me that with a state the size of NY, whatever losses Bell is incurring, it's probably such small change it probably is the equivalent of you personally losing a penny between the couch cushions, maybe even less than that.

It certainly wouldn't be anything I'd be upset over if I lived there.  I wouldn't care about the BOGO's they give out either.  Bigger problems in the world...


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't know, it just seems to me that with a state the size of NY, whatever losses Bell is incurring, it's probably such small change it probably is the equivalent of you personally losing a penny between the couch cushions, maybe even less than that.
> 
> It certainly wouldn't be anything I'd be upset over if I lived there.  I wouldn't care about the BOGO's they give out either.  Bigger problems in the world...



You are right...  There *are *bigger problems than skiing...  that's for sure..
Like funding families from NJ while we lay off Police Officers and teachers...
And we're talking families that day trip - pack lunches and don't buy gas in NY..   No real $ flowing into the economy..  All the $ is spent at the ski area..  

The thing about the BOGOs was they were distributed by the Chamber of Commerce to places where people that go to Plattekill and Belleayre skiers frequent...    Plattekill can't afford to hand out a thousand BOGOs...   Maybe Hunter and Windham can..  But Plattekill can't...


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2013)

@dmc and @BenedictGomez still haven't resolved the fundamental conflict.

They don't want the state in the ski business—but that's written into the state constitution and can't easily be changed.

Given that the state is by constitutional fiat in the ski business, they resent that it's actually run LIKE a ski business, and competes with other ski businesses.

They want it to be "fair," by some definition, but apparently Belleayre's competitors are the ones who get to decide what's fair. Yeah, right. I'm sure they'd be totally neutral about that.

@BenedictGomez said that Belleayre had "cut their throats," but they're all still in business, so I am still not sure where we go for a "fair" hearing of whether Belleayre is playing dirty pool, or just maximizing its assets, given the hand it has been dealt.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't know, it just seems to me that with a  state the size of NY,* whatever losses Bell is incurring*, it's probably  such small change



I'd like to know!   Really, I'd like to know.   This entire subject might be worthy of a FOIL request.




oakapple said:


> @dmc and @BenedictGomez still haven't resolved the fundamental conflict.
> 
> They don't want the state in the ski business—but that's written into the state constitution and can't easily be changed.
> 
> ...



I'd like to be respectful and such, but your comments demonstrate that you have a very thin grasp on business to begin with, but worse, you're clearly not even paying attention to what anyone in this thread is writing.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> You are right...  There *are *bigger problems than skiing...  that's for sure..
> Like funding families from NJ while we lay off Police Officers and teachers...
> And we're talking families that day trip - pack lunches and don't buy gas in NY..   No real $ flowing into the economy..  All the $ is spent at the ski area..
> 
> The thing about the BOGOs was they were distributed by the Chamber of Commerce to places where people that go to Plattekill and Belleayre skiers frequent...    Plattekill can't afford to hand out a thousand BOGOs...   Maybe Hunter and Windham can..  But Plattekill can't...



That's one way to look at it.  Another way to look at is the cost of skiing has become prohibitively expensive for new people to take up the sport.  If the discounts encourage new participation, Hunter, Windham, Plattekill all benefit down the road by there being a larger customer pool.  Some of those new skiers attracted by the BOGO's turn into season pass holders, second homers etc,. down the road and maybe once they catch the "ski bug" they opt for Hunter or Plattekill instead of Bell.

I think it's great that State Run Cannon in NH offers tremendous discounts to not only NH residents, but out of state skiers and riders as well.  It's good for the sport.  I don't hear skiers from other mountains in our region complain about those discounts.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Another way to look at is* the cost of skiing has become prohibitively expensive for new people to take up the sport.  If the discounts encourage new participation, Hunter, Windham, Plattekill all benefit down the road by there being a larger customer pool.*  Some of those new skiers attracted by the BOGO's turn into season pass holders, second homers etc,. down the road and maybe once they catch the "ski bug" they opt for Hunter or Plattekill instead of Bell.



Lets just give EVERYONE free tickets to every resort!  The ski industry will be making money hand over fist in no time!

  DHS, the above is fairy-tale economics.  "Free" does not a business model make.  

And a small player will be hurt more over the short-term than whatever benefit (which is highly debatable to begin with) would acrue over the long-term.  Worst case?  You may not even remain solvent if the free tickets are so profound.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2013)

If you want to interject hyperbole by saying, "Free Skiing for All" go for it.  These were BOGO's.  Cannon offers them Tuesday through Thursday.  I don't hear skiers at other mountains in our region bitch about it like Catskill area skiers bitch about Bell offering BOGO's.  

But, hey, it's you all who losing pennies in New York's couch.  In a bad financial season, Cannon might cost me a dollar of my tax money; I really don't care.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> If you want to interject hyperbole by saying, "Free Skiing for All" go for it. * These were BOGO's.  Cannon offers them Tuesday through Thursday.  I don't hear skiers at other mountains in our region bitch about it like Catskill area skiers bitch *about Bell offering BOGO's.



You dont understand the magnitude of the situation.  Yes, probably 3/4 of mountains offer BOGOs in one form or another.

But Belleayre was papering the market so heavily with BOGOs that you could use them to heat your home.


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## Rambo (Mar 4, 2013)

benedictgomez said:


> you dont understand the magnitude of the situation.  Yes, probably 3/4 of mountains offer bogos in one form or another.
> 
> But belleayre was papering the market so heavily with bogos that you could use them to heat your home.



At the beginning of the season when there were few trails open, Belleayre would print BOGO on the lift ticket and it could be redemed for a free ticket your next visit if it was before Dec. 17th. Also at the very end of the season their would be a BOGO on your lift ticket sometimes that needed to be used by Dec. 17th of the next season.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

Rambo said:


> This is false, I think! At the beginning of the season when there were few trails open, Belleayre would print BOGO on the lift ticket and it could be redemed for a free ticket your next visit if it was before Dec. 17th. Also at the very end of the season their would be a BOGO on your lift ticket sometimes that needed to be used by Dec. 17th of the next season.



I'm not really talking about what's going on there now..

But in this instance 1000 BOGOs hit the area..
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2011/01/06/news/doc4d252349602d1366541341.txt


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's one way to look at it.  Another way to look at is the cost of skiing has become prohibitively expensive for new people to take up the sport.



I'm down... But not until there's some meat in the state budget...


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> If you want to interject hyperbole by saying, "Free Skiing for All" go for it.  These were BOGO's.  Cannon offers them Tuesday through Thursday.  I don't hear skiers at other mountains in our region bitch about it like Catskill area skiers bitch about Bell offering BOGO's.



Again - this is all in the past - I have no idea what's up now...

But things are getting tough down here..  Seasons are shorter..  money is tighter.. 
I'll defend Plattekill whenever they need me to..  I dig what they are doing..


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## Rambo (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> I'm not really talking about what's going on there now..
> 
> But in this instance 1000 BOGOs hit the area..
> http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2011/01/06/news/doc4d252349602d1366541341.txt



Oh - I see now! Thanks for the info.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

I might ski Bell when my dad is their for handicap skiing hopefully by next winter.


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## dmc (Mar 4, 2013)

Scotty said:


> I might ski Bell when my dad is their for handicap skiing hopefully by next winter.



I used to go there with my dad towards the end of his skiing life..


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## ScottySkis (Mar 4, 2013)

dmc said:


> I used to go there with my dad towards the end of his skiing life..



Sorry about that DMC.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2013)

Rambo said:


> This is false, I think!



Well, that's better than _"This is a lie!"_, which is what you wrote before editing.



Rambo said:


> *At the beginning of the season *when there were few trails open,* Belleayre would print BOGO on the lift ticket and it could be redemed for a free ticket your next visit if it was before Dec. 17th.* Also at the very end of the season their would be a BOGO on your lift ticket sometimes that needed to be used by Dec. 17th of the next season.



 Belleayre had tons of full-fledged BOGOs that could be used* 7 days per week, all season long*.  They probably were blacked out for holidays (cant remember), but it most certainly wasn't just early/late season.

 That's in addition to the problem that DMC posted, which was the straw that broke the camels back.   How ubiquitous were Belleayre BOGOs?  They were so common that people would try to sell them online for 99¢ or $1.99, and often they didnt sell, even in peak months like January and February. IMO, anyone skiing at Belleayre during those few years paying more than 50% of face for a ticket was a sucker.


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## Rambo (Mar 4, 2013)

As far as Belleayre goes and past practices: A few years ago, I asked a guy I know, "How do you get free lift tickets to Belleayre" and he said every year he went to the New York State Fair and went to the DEC building (he said it was a log cabin building) and there you could get vouchers for free Belleayre lift tickets.

Also at the end of the ski season, one year at Belleayre, a guy in the parking lot wanted to sell me an extra voucher he had for a free lift ticket, and he said he got the vouchers at a Golf Expo. and Belleayre had a table set up there.


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## dmc (Mar 5, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Sorry about that DMC.



It's OK... the mellow slopes of Belleayre served us well..


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## oakapple (Mar 5, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> \That's in addition to the problem that DMC posted, which was the straw that broke the camels back.


Sorry...what "camel's back" would that be? Would it be the same camel whose throat was slit, but who (miraculously) is still alive and well?


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## dmc (Mar 5, 2013)

oakapple said:


> Sorry...what "camel's back" would that be? Would it be the same camel whose throat was slit, but who (miraculously) is still alive and well?



The "camels back" that is a small ski area (Plattekill) up against New York State tossing 1000 BOGOs around in their back yard..


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## ScottySkis (Mar 5, 2013)

dmc said:


> The "camels back" that is a small ski area (Plattekill) up against New York State tossing 1000 BOGOs around in their back yard..



Up and they only buy used stuff at Platty, maybe if he made more visits a few years ago Platty would have had more snow makers today.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Apr 17, 2013)

The last day to buy the Ski3 pass at the cheatest rate is this Friday, April 19. Has anyone here purchased one or planning on doing so? I'm just curious...I've been told sales are going well.


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## ScottySkis (Apr 17, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The last day to buy the Ski3 pass at the cheatest rate is this Friday, April 19. Has anyone here purchased one or planning on doing so? I'm just curious...I've been told sales are going well.


I though about it, I wouldn't enjoy Bell enough to make it worth the price.


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## Harvey (Apr 17, 2013)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The last day to buy the Ski3 pass at the cheatest rate is this Friday, April 19. Has anyone here purchased one or planning on doing so? I'm just curious...I've been told sales are going well.



We are buying three.


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## 4aprice (Apr 17, 2013)

Under different circumstances I definitely would have considered it.  I'm ok with Belleayre (skiing wise, not the state v private issue) and the addition of the other 2 mountains would make it very interesting to me.  I like variety.  I would even ski it if I lived in the Albany area just for that reason.  

One thing that interested me was it was advertised heavily on the main route to Rutland.  Big billboards on 149 near Fort Ann and 4 just before the Vermont state line.  Will be interesting to see how it does.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## zyk (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm debating it right now.  Its Hunter again or Gore/Belleayre.  Wouldn't trade Hunter for Belleayre,  but I might for Gore.  Its the longer drive I'm considering.


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## JimG. (Apr 18, 2013)

I considered the 3 in 1...I even went to Belleayre to ski for 2 days to see how I felt. I was bored to death and could not ski there more than 1 weekend a month. I would trade Hunter for Gore, but do I want to more than double my drive time? If I decided to stay over at night to equalize the driving time, then I have an added lodging expense for at least 2 weekends a month. Whiteface is the gem, but at 4+ hours from my house that would be a one weekend a month trip and again I have a lodging expense.

So my plan is to buy the Hunter season pass again for 2013-14. But I will be making regular trips to Gore and Whiteface during the season. I'll see how the driving and lodging plays out, then if I can deal with those issues I'll get the 3 in 1 for 2014-15.


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