# Buying "Made In USA" only



## legalskier (Jun 8, 2011)

It's tough to do even with a conscious effort. I enjoy shopping at a certain big box store because they give priority to American made products. One woman even wrote a book about how difficult it was to accomplish over one year (_A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy_ by Sara Bongiorni).

I saw this story in the news today- hopefully it will start a trend:
_*Smithsonian shop sells U.S.-made gifts*
*** The Price of Freedom gift shop at the National Museum of American History began selling only American-made gifts Wednesday. The change came after Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., threatened to introduce legislation requiring taxpayer-financed museums to sell more merchandise made in this country....Sanders said that the move is a good start, but that he wants to see a greater effort to sell American-made merchandise in all Smithsonian gift stores. "It seems to me that a museum owned by the American people, designed to express our history and our greatness, should be, to as great a degree as possible, selling products made by American workers," said Sanders, who visited the gift shop Wednesday....*The Smithsonian wants to see how well merchandise sells at the Price of Freedom store before committing to extending the American-made policy to other stores*, Haberacker said. ***_
Story: http://www.usatoday.com/money/indus...smithsonian-buy-american-products-gifts_n.htm

Would you pay a few bucks more for an American made product? Does better quality matter to you? Do you support this store's new policy?


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## bvibert (Jun 8, 2011)

That's pretty good.  I have no problem paying a little more for better quality in most cases.


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## 2knees (Jun 8, 2011)

this subject hits close to work for me.  My job is to buy a product that is relied upon by construction workers as a tool.  I buy a limited amount of USA made product but the cost is extremely prohibitive at the moment.  When everyone gets a look at the increases in cost coming out of china in the next 3-6 months, i suspect it may drastically close the gap in the average consumers mind.  Get ready to open your wallets folks, cause china has a taste and a demand for westernized living conditions resulting in dramatically increased wages in factories.


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## mondeo (Jun 8, 2011)

It's a gimmick, and another stunt by Sanders.


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## andyzee (Jun 9, 2011)

mondeo said:


> It's a gimmick, and another stunt by Sanders.



Yep, maybe, yet a move in the right direction.


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## o3jeff (Jun 9, 2011)

legalskier said:


> Would you pay a few bucks more for an American made product? Does better quality matter to you?



I am usually looking for the best product for the money. I am also not looking to pay extra just to fund some guys pension and lifetime benefits....

Like TV's or computers, would you or better yet, could we afford to buy an American made one?


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## riverc0il (Jun 9, 2011)

> The price of American-made is often more expensive, she said. Coffee mugs made overseas average $10 to $12 apiece; American-made ones retail for $20.


The problem with this sort of protectionism hurts people when they can least afford it. Maybe the well to do will be happy to buy products twice as expensive because they are made in the USA (just like the well to do are more likely to buy "green" products regardless of the price penalty). But less well to do folks get hurt. People don't buy Chinese merchandise because they want to, they buy it because that is what they can afford. If consumers were forced (on a grand scale) to buy American or go without, the economy would collapse.

It is counter intuitive to an extent. I was a HUGE Bernie supporter when I was in Vermont. And I was crazy go nuts for this type of thing at one point. But if you dabble in a little economics, you find that forcing people to do stuff like this causes problems. One small specialty niche shop ain't going to hurt anything (will it be profitable, though, I'd like to know that....). So they can have at it. But the whole "Be American, Buy American" concept is ridiculous. The fact is that a massive amount of the USA economy and jobs we work is supported by trade with China and USA consumption of foreign goods.


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## andyzee (Jun 9, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> The problem with this sort of protectionism hurts people when they can least afford it. Maybe the well to do will be happy to buy products twice as expensive because they are made in the USA (just like the well to do are more likely to buy "green" products regardless of the price penalty). But less well to do folks get hurt. People don't buy Chinese merchandise because they want to, they buy it because that is what they can afford. If consumers were forced (on a grand scale) to buy American or go without, the economy would collapse.
> 
> It is counter intuitive to an extent. I was a HUGE Bernie supporter when I was in Vermont. And I was crazy go nuts for this type of thing at one point. But if you dabble in a little economics, you find that forcing people to do stuff like this causes problems. One small specialty niche shop ain't going to hurt anything (will it be profitable, though, I'd like to know that....). So they can have at it. But the whole "Be American, Buy American" concept is ridiculous. The fact is that a massive amount of the USA economy and jobs we work is supported by trade with China and USA consumption of foreign goods.



So he says as he watches his job being outsourced to India. Sorry Steve, strongly disagree. Granted, protectionism is a bad thing and I truly believe in free trade and competition. But we need more of a level playing field. How can factory workers in the US possibly compete with workers in China who make a couple of hundred dollars a month. How can IT workers here compete with IT workers in Singapore or India who make $10-$12 a month? In the end if this trend continues, Americans will be put out of work, as is happening. Middle class will disappear and with that will the number 1 consumer, this happens, who purchases the inexpensive products? Surely not the poor guy in China making $200 a month. We get to this point, what happens to the world economy?


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## campgottagopee (Jun 9, 2011)

I try to get the most for my money, if that means made in the USA, fine. To me it's more important to buy locally no matter where the product is made. I like my little town and will support it whenever I can.


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## riverc0il (Jun 9, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Surely not the poor guy in China making $200 a month. We get to this point, what happens to the world economy?


Actually, yes. As China catches up to the rest of the developed countries of the world, their products will begin to get more expensive which will level the playing field and they'll want goods and services produced by the USA. 

The fact is that a significant amount of jobs that get outsourced are jobs that few people want. Minimum wage jobs that require skills but a repetitive and boring. 

As far as middle class being put out of work.... there are more jobs now than there were prior to trade with China. The reason the economy sucks right now is due to the financial meltdown and the fact that people stopped buying so much crap (perhaps a good thing, let's get back to sustainable growth). Trade with other countries increases domestic jobs, not decreases.

The middle class having problems right now is not due to trade with other countries. Should we not trade with Japan? Or how about Korea? We get almost all of our electronics from over there. A significant amount of our vehicles too. Hyundai has one of the cheapest and most reliable new cars on the market. Laptops now cost 300% less than a Desktop running Win3.1 over a dozen years ago. Some jobs get outsourced but others are created, but perhaps your industry was hit harder than most. It ain't the 1990s for IT any more but it is that way for healthcare.

There are a lot of factors and saying something so broad as outsourcing is killing the middle class is just not accurate.


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## dmc (Jun 9, 2011)

The IT industry was CRUSHED in places..  
I lost a job to India when I worked at AT&T...

In the company I work for now.. We have a ton of folks in India doing offshore work... BUT - we are moving lot's of work to Malaysia now.. Cause it's cheaper...


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## thorski (Jun 9, 2011)

It's too late for manufacturing in the USA. American owned companies are the next things to go.  From what i'm told American Engineering sucks anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2011)

Interesting that Bernie thinks buying Chinese coffee mugs is bad, yet he has taken bus loads of Vermont Senior Citizens across the boarder to buy cheaper prescription drugs in Canada.


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## Dr Skimeister (Jun 9, 2011)

legalskier said:


> Would you pay a few bucks more for an American made product? Does better quality matter to you? Do you support this store's new policy?



I'm not sure that the second question is necessarily assumed after the first question.

The days of "Made In The USA" being the automatically synonymous with superior quality are behind us. An examination of the US automobile industry is offered as exhibit #1.

We as a nation point out that our inability to compete in manufacturing is a function of us not taking advantage of cheap labor or questionable human rights as is seen in many of the Asian (and probably soon, African and South American) countries. In the same breath though, we advocate the abolition of labor unions that have been formed to look out for the well-being of American workers and to assure that our workers get a fair paycheck for a day's work.


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## thorski (Jun 9, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> I love yardsales.  Most 'green' thing to do, reuse.  Plus you get cool vintage stuff (ie early 1960s framed  Tahoe map tourist poster).  Don't buy from China or US..but grandma lol.



Yardsales are actually where you find the most things made in the USA. Old stuff that was built to last and that grandma took care of.


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## Puck it (Jun 9, 2011)

Industries that get sent overseas are replaced by others.  i.e. TV's replaced by computers.  The bigger question is what is going to be the next boom for us.  I do not see anything on the horizon that is jumping out at me.


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## andyzee (Jun 9, 2011)

Steve, you bring up some very good points, can't say I agree with them all, but none the less, very good points that have forced me to think (That in itself is a job)



riverc0il said:


> Actually, yes. As China catches up to the rest of the developed countries of the world, their products will begin to get more expensive which will level the playing field and they'll want goods and services produced by the USA.


 
Would agree with this if American businesses weren't closing up due to manufacturing being shipped overseas. By the time they catch up I'm not sure what will be left here. Maybe they'll want good and services same as us, from countries that are cheaper.



riverc0il said:


> The fact is that a significant amount of jobs that get outsourced are jobs that few people want. Minimum wage jobs that require skills but a repetitive and boring.


 
Sorry Steve, but think you have your facts wrong, Boring minimum wage jobs are not being outsourced, they have been and are being moved to other countries, there's a difference. I used to think the same way, let them have the crap, until I did start seeing the higher skilled jobs being outsourced, companies turning global and then even upper management being moved to foriegn countries. Shameful thing about this, some of these companies got bailed out by the U.S. government in the recent fiscal crisis. 



riverc0il said:


> As far as middle class being put out of work.... there are more jobs now than there were prior to trade with China. The reason the economy sucks right now is due to the financial meltdown and the fact that people stopped buying so much crap (perhaps a good thing, let's get back to sustainable growth). Trade with other countries increases domestic jobs, not decreases.
> 
> The middle class having problems right now is not due to trade with other countries. Should we not trade with Japan? Or how about Korea? We get almost all of our electronics from over there. A significant amount of our vehicles too. Hyundai has one of the cheapest and most reliable new cars on the market. Laptops now cost 300% less than a Desktop running Win3.1 over a dozen years ago. Some jobs get outsourced but others are created, but perhaps your industry was hit harder than most. It ain't the 1990s for IT any more but it is that way for healthcare.
> 
> There are a lot of factors and saying something so broad as outsourcing is killing the middle class is just not accurate.


 

You bring up very interesting poiints about Japan and Korea, and that one really got be thinking (my head is starting to hurt now) However, with Japan and Korea, this country was in a much better fiscal position and we were able to absorb the punch a bit better. Right now financially we are in a much more fragile state. But let's forget us for a sec, the U.S. is the world's #1 consumer, what happens if we can't consume anymore? What happens to the world economy? Yes, my points as well as yours may be a bit simplistic, but I think in both cases some very valid point and we both need to look at each side of the argument.


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## Dr Skimeister (Jun 9, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> I'm looking for new ski clothing, and comments and research say that once a manufacturer moves operations to China, quality goes down (ie Cloudveil and another I read about...Mammut?).  I know price doesn't go down.  This goes against what you said.  Hmmm..



Might consider that the manufacturer has opted to use lesser quality "ingredients" for their product so that 1) it costs less to produce, but selling price stays the same, and 2) the sooner the product is not functioning to expectation, the sooner is the opportunity to sell you another one.


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## dmc (Jun 9, 2011)

My new drumset is 100% made in the USA...  South Carolina...


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2011)

Puck it said:


> Industries that get sent overseas are replaced by others.  i.e. TV's replaced by computers.  The bigger question is what is going to be the next boom for us.  I do not see anything on the horizon that is jumping out at me.



I would think green energy technology.


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## dmc (Jun 9, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I would think green energy technology.



Definitely... Batteries, Solar panels, fuel cells and stuff..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2011)

and we'll turn the tables on OPEC and make them pay a premium for the solar panels :lol:


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## dmc (Jun 9, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> and we'll turn the tables on OPEC and make them pay a premium for the solar panels :lol:



I like the way you think...


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## mlctvt (Jun 9, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Actually, yes. As China catches up to the rest of the developed countries of the world, their products will begin to get more expensive which will level the playing field and they'll want goods and services produced by the USA.



This will not happen in any of our lifetimes. Only 10-15% of Chinese people are actually workers in factories. Most are still peasants. It will probably take over 100 years for their standard of living to increase to a level anywhere near ours. At the same time the US standard is dropping. Maybe we'll meet in the middle in 50 years.

I work in the electronics manufacturing industry. Skilled Chinese machine operators make about 55cents per hour compared to about $20.00 hour plus benefits here. We recently quoted a job that we knew we couldn't win since it was a high volume product that was alos being quoted by offshore companies. Just for curiousity we quoted Chinese manufacturing. The Chinese company quoted a cost so low that it just covered the material costs for a completed product. When we asked where is the labor portion the Chinese salesperson said the labor was "free". Apparently the Chinese government was subsidizing the labor since the factory was in an area they wanted to expand manufacturing in. How do you compete when the labor is given away!


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## Nick (Jun 9, 2011)

I like buying stuff in the USA, when possible, but Im' sure I have a lot of crap made in other countries. 

I also like supporting small business, i.e. go out to eat at a local restaurant or a small chain vs. a national chain, and go to my local hardware store vs. Home Depot (although I do end up at HD quite a bit, the selection is just ridiculous).


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## Black Phantom (Jun 9, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I would think green energy technology.



Really? How well did Evergreen work out for the Commonwealth of MA?


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## ctenidae (Jun 9, 2011)

​


SkiFanE said:


> For windpower technology, I've read we are way behind Europe, or falling behind.  They've got windfarms all over the place.



We're behind Europe on deployment of both wind and solar by quite a bit, both in physical installations and in subsidies and tariff regimes. In Europe, though it varies form country to country, there's a stated quantity oc renewable capacity they want to see built, and there is a government mandated tariff to cover the cost and provide a sufficient return to the developers and operators. Some countries do it better- Italy passes the cost on to the consumers (if they hit all targets it's a  7% increase over 5 years). Some do it poorly- Spain pays the tariff as a line item on the federal budget (which they slashed retroactively whe they went broke- guess who's building wind in Spain now). The US gives either a 30% construction cost grant, which is decent, or a production tax credit. Neither is very good for spuring development- can't get 70% financing on the variable revenues coming from wind (and no one is signing up long-term contracts at good prices), and the way the cash flows work you're not generating income to offset the tax against, so you have to try to sell teh tax equity, which no one is buying. 

We're also well behind in terms of manufacturing solar panels (China does it better  and cheaper) and wind turbines (Germany builds the most, sinc they 're good engineers and most are used in Europe). We should be spending money on research, but we're hardly dooing that naymore, and have cut tax breaks for R&D.  It'd be awesome for green tech to be the next US boom, but I'm afraid the cards are stacked against us. China's building all new infrastructure so they can afford to buildwith the latest technology. European countries (one of the few benefits of socialism) can mandate new tech and push retrofitting of old and building of new. In the US, we're up against the largest, oldest, most built-in and extensive system, and it's a bear to change it. 

/rant off


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## ta&idaho (Jun 9, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting that Bernie thinks buying Chinese coffee mugs is bad, yet he has taken bus loads of Vermont Senior Citizens across the boarder to buy cheaper prescription drugs in Canada.



Prescription drugs sold in Canada are usually manufactured in the same facilities (and using the same ingredient sources) as prescription drugs sold in the United States.  For each branded drug, the profits go to the same drug company regardless of where you buy the drug (although profits are higher for U.S. sales).  The situation is slightly more complicated with generic drugs, but generic prices tend to be competitive in the U.S.


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## dmc (Jun 9, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> Prescription drugs sold in Canada are usually manufactured in the same facilities (and using the same ingredient sources) as prescription drugs sold in the United States.  For each branded drug, the profits go to the same drug company regardless of where you buy the drug (although profits are higher for U.S. sales).  The situation is slightly more complicated with generic drugs, but generic prices tend to be competitive in the U.S.



yeah... US/Mexico boarder towns are filling up with older folks who move there for the weather and access to cheap drugs and procedures..

I was talking to someone that went to Mexico to have dental work done for cheap...


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## snoseek (Jun 9, 2011)

dmc said:


> I was talking to someone that went to Mexico to have dental work done for cheap...



I'm doing this next year. I know a lot that have gotten quality work done down there for a fraction of the cost. I'm all set with the prices in the U.S., they are just too much for my budget.


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## thorski (Jun 9, 2011)

If they legalized it Mexico would probably be a much nicer place.


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## snoseek (Jun 9, 2011)

thorski said:


> If they legalized it Mexico would probably be a much nicer place.



As would the U.S.8)


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## wa-loaf (Jun 9, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I would think green energy technology.





dmc said:


> Definitely... Batteries, Solar panels, fuel cells and stuff..





Black Phantom said:


> Really? How well did Evergreen work out for the Commonwealth of MA?



China is kicking our ass in manufacturing solar panels and everything else that goes with it. Where do you think Evergreen is moving their production ... ?


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## ChileMass (Jun 9, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> This will not happen in any of our lifetimes. Only 10-15% of Chinese people are actually workers in factories. Most are still peasants. It will probably take over 100 years for their standard of living to increase to a level anywhere near ours. At the same time the US standard is dropping. Maybe we'll meet in the middle in 50 years.
> 
> I work in the electronics manufacturing industry. Skilled Chinese machine operators make about 55cents per hour compared to about $20.00 hour plus benefits here. We recently quoted a job that we knew we couldn't win since it was a high volume product that was alos being quoted by offshore companies. Just for curiousity we quoted Chinese manufacturing. The Chinese company quoted a cost so low that it just covered the material costs for a completed product. When we asked where is the labor portion the Chinese salesperson said the labor was "free". Apparently the Chinese government was subsidizing the labor since the factory was in an area they wanted to expand manufacturing in. How do you compete when the labor is given away!



Facsinating and yet, not surprising.  I work for the largest product testing company in the world and our clients are manufacturers of every kind of product that comes out of a factory - from shoes to toys to furniture to consumer electronics, medical devices, wireless products, semiconductor tools, industrial systems, you name it.  20 years ago there were dozens of mid-sized original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) in the electronics sector right here in New England, and we had a booming local testing business.  Now, probably 2/3 is gone to China and elsewhere in Asia.  I keep telling myself that the economists say that free markets will beat subsidized markets every time, but I'm not so sure about that.  Used to be the cheap stuff was being made in China (textiles, small electronics, appliances, etc). Now they export cars, HVAC systems, and even sophisticated medical systems that we need to keep to have any sort of manufacturing base here in the US.  As somebody said earlier, I don't see a new technology boom on the horizon to lift us in the next 10 years, and sustainable energy is a joke right now.  Solar, wind, biomass, etc are all waaaaaay too expensive to use on a commercial/industrial scale and will remain so until the govt decides to stop subsidizing oil companies (!!!!) and put some money into new energy.  And relying on healthcare as a job driver is ridiculous.  Unless you're a doctor, or a nurse with seniority or an adminstrator, those jobs will be low-paying.  So we have great hospitals, equipment and doctors that no one can afford.  If you don't have a really good job with benefits, our gold-plated healthcare system might as well be on the moon.  

I work with a lot of US companies whose manufacturing is in Asia.  R&D is largely still here, and as long as corporate intellectual property stays here, so will the corporations and those jobs.  But the 6-figure jobs for the next generation will be in engineering, design, finance or executive management, so be sure to pick the right major in college.  Oh, and learn Mandarin Chinese as a second language......


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## ChileMass (Jun 9, 2011)

So back to the original question:

Would you pay more for a product stamped "Made in America"? 

Interestingly, my company (a test lab) is considering coming out with a certification label for manufacturers so they can demonstrate "country of origin" in case locals want to buy local.   Would you support a company more if you knew their product was made locally?


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## RootDKJ (Jun 9, 2011)

thorski said:


> If they legalized it Mexico would probably be a much nicer place.





snoseek said:


> As would the U.S.8)


Connecticut just got a little bit nicer.


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## thorski (Jun 9, 2011)

Every company i do work for that makes stuff in the USA has found a little niche in which they can survive, and they are all hanging on by the skin of their teeth.
The next boom in the economy will come when China starts launching carriers and a new arms race starts.


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## ChileMass (Jun 9, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> Don't snub your nose at healthcare.  They are just like any other business...need finance, facility, marketing, management and my field - IT.  You may say that's "all" that is growing, but it's growing.  I work in an IT dept of 1700...in healthcare.  And we are at the beginning of implementing a new IT system (all the facilities bought/merged over the last 10 years have diff't systems).  It's expected to take 10 years and cost over $1b...they haven't even run the #s yet.  This is just one healthcare system...and we can't find people to hire.  I've interviewed 2 recent Indian emigrants this week for a position...no Americans are applying.  Our vendors outsource to India, but this work stays in America, yet we end up hiring lots of Indians and Russians because qualified american's aren't applying.  Because.."it's just healthcare".  working in other industries is sexier, yet HC IT has provided me with a lucrative career for 20 years and it's gonna take me ll the way to retirement.  BTW..besides putting into 401k I get an employer paid pension that contributes about 7% of my pay into a fund with a min. rate of 5%/year and a max of 12%...hey..nothing to laugh at...how many other orgs do that nowadays?  Hoped to be here until retirement..but got an offer today from my old PM to return to my old hospital..hmm....bene's aren't as good but pay would be better...  How many industries are desperate for workers, besides healthcare?
> 
> So...for the 100th time...look into healthcare, it's not just blood and guts lol.



I hear you - the problem is that if there's a big drop in covered people, big healthcare providers won't have a market.  There's a lot less money insuring people working for reduced or minimal wages.  We need to maintain what's left of our manufacturing base and find new technologies to create millions of replacement jobs.  That's a tough order with China and India having so large a cost advantage.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 9, 2011)

ChileMass said:


> So back to the original question:
> 
> Would you pay more for a product stamped "Made in America"?
> 
> Interestingly, my company (a test lab) is considering coming out with a certification label for manufacturers so they can demonstrate "country of origin" in case locals want to buy local.   Would you support a company more if you knew their product was made locally?



I will pay more for good quality. If "made in America" stood for good quality in the particular product it would influence my buying decision.


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## mondeo (Jun 9, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Yep, maybe, yet a move in the right direction.


Why is it the right direction? The stuff that's cheaper to get made overseas would generally have to be made at minimum wage in this country to be even close to price competitive (because if it was cheaper at min wage here, it would be made here.) Last I checked, under 1% of the adult workforce was employed at minimum wage. That 10% unemployment? It's because people aren't willing to work minimum wage jobs (when they have 2 years of unemployment benefits paying them more than minimum wage.) F low cost manufacturing, it would bring this country down.

Boeing is the largest exporter in the U.S. AMD's spin-off of a manufacturing semiconductor company is building a multi-billion dollar plant in New York, the north end of a pretty significant tech corridor (IBM's Fishkill plant at the southern end.) Look at the companies that make up the DJIA. 18 out of 30 are still manufacturing companies heavily based in the U.S., and anything that isn't done in the U.S. is the easy stuff. High tech stuff is what we want here, not some 15 cent piece of crap souvenier manufacturing jobs.

Looking for the next wave? Screw solar and wind, they'll never be able to fulfill all that much of the world's energy issues. Fully fund a U.S. effort for development of production-capable nuclear fusion technology by 2028. Give the associated technology an export classification that requires a liscense to export outside of the 51 states (there isn't much information we restrict from sharing with Canada.) The current plan is a functional multinational fusion plant in 2033, funded with a few billion per year. If we spend $30bn as a country, per year, it would really push the pace of development, it's nothing on the scale of the national budget (especially considering you get about 30% of it back in taxes anyways,) and it gives the U.S. a huge lead in the go-to means of power production for the second half of this century.

Incidentally, for those that don't work with anything high-tech, a lot of the stuff that the world really wants _can't_ be designed or produced by other countries, outside of countries that developed the technology indigineously. Key aerospace, semiconductor, materials, etc., technology has to be kept within the states unless you get specific U.S. government approval (which, in my experience, is usually tied to securing foreign sales - like final assembly of F-16s in Poland in order to sell Poland F-16s instead of Eurofighters.) Every presentation I make has to be marked with an export classification, even though it's low enough sensitivity to be shared with India (and likely China.) Not too worried about other countries catching up technologically with us for quite some time.


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## mondeo (Jun 9, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Connecticut just got a little bit nicer.


Now if they would just f'ing let us buy f'ing booze on a f'ing Sunday or after 9PM...


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## legalskier (Jun 9, 2011)

dmc said:


> My new drumset is 100% made in the USA...  South Carolina...



I'm curious- how's the quality/workmanship?


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## ctenidae (Jun 9, 2011)

Article in Wired a monh or so ago about al the quality control issues coming out of China, especially for smaller orders. When a low saleable yield from an order is combined with delays caused by both shipping and having larger customers bump you out of the queue and higher shipping costs due to fuel prices, all of a sudden manufacturing inteh US starts to get more competitive. Interesting ideas- I know therre's still a lot of jobber manufacturing done in the midwest, and there's actually a surprising amount of small batch contract electronics manufacturing going on.

Maufacturing's not dead in theStats, it's just generally not large scale, I guess.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 10, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Looking for the next wave? Screw solar and wind, they'll never be able to fulfill all that much of the world's energy issues.



Depends on you who you ask.  This report states that 80% of the world's power needs could be supplied by renewable resources by 2050 with the proper investment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/09/ipcc-renewable-energy-power-world#history-link-box


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## bvibert (Jun 10, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> Article in Wired a monh or so ago about al the quality control issues coming out of China, especially for smaller orders. When a low saleable yield from an order is combined with delays caused by both shipping and having larger customers bump you out of the queue and higher shipping costs due to fuel prices, all of a sudden manufacturing inteh US starts to get more competitive. Interesting ideas- I know therre's still a lot of jobber manufacturing done in the midwest, and there's actually a surprising amount of small batch contract electronics manufacturing going on.
> 
> Maufacturing's not dead in theStats, it's just generally not large scale, I guess.



We're actually moving some of our lower volume circuit board assemblies out of a contract manufacturer in Mexico to a different one in Arizona.  Not because of cost, but because of performance.  The Mexican plant is not able to produce our high mix at low volumes very effectively, nor do I think they really want to.  They're more setup to run higher volumes.


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## Dr Skimeister (Jun 10, 2011)

bvibert said:


> We're actually moving some of our* lower volume circuit board assemblies* out of a contract manufacturer in Mexico to a different one in Arizona.  Not because of cost, but because of performance.  The Mexican plant is not able to produce our high mix at low volumes very effectively, nor do I think they really want to.  They're more *setup to run higher volumes*.



Sounds more like a problem of the organization choosing the wrong contract manufacturer for the expected job than whether the manufacturer is in the US or Mexico.


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## mondeo (Jun 10, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Depends on you who you ask. This report states that 80% of the world's power needs could be supplied by renewable resources by 2050 with the proper investment.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/09/ipcc-renewable-energy-power-world#history-link-box


I'm suspicious of that. I'd be surprised if, considering increasing energy requirements as well, 40% is even a reasonable mark. And once solar and wind are built out, the percentage of energy requirements they can fulfill will start dropping.

The bigger picture is that we're behind in wind and solar, even with significant gov't investment I don't see the U.S. gaining a significant technical advantage, and the opportunity to keep that knowledge within the U.S. is limited. We have the opportunity to create a significant lead in fusion, however, which has vast long term implications. It's a lot easier to maintain a lead than catch up others. Plus I want a Mr. Fusion.


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## mondeo (Jun 10, 2011)

Oh, and manufacturing has increased by 50% in the U.S. since 1980.


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## bvibert (Jun 10, 2011)

Dr Skimeister said:


> Sounds more like a problem of the organization choosing the wrong contract manufacturer for the expected job than whether the manufacturer is in the US or Mexico.



Mostly true, but that gets into corporate politics, which I'm not getting into.  Lets just say that our company was basically forced to use the place in Mexico due to cost alone instead of the place in Arizona that we wanted to use in the first place.

My point being that I doubt the company I work for is the only one who moved work out of the country for apparent cost savings only to realize later on that there's other factors involved than just the cost per unit.


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## bvibert (Jun 10, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Plus I want a Mr. Fusion.



Me too!


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## thorski (Jun 10, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Now if they would just f'ing let us buy f'ing booze on a f'ing Sunday or after 9PM...



Only if we lived in a free country.


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## ChileMass (Jun 10, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Oh, and manufacturing has increased by 50% in the U.S. since 1980.




Source for this data?  

Maybe production has increased based on productivity driven by technology, but I guarantee you the number of manufacturing jobs has decreased just as dramatically over that span.  It's great to have better productivity, don't get me wrong, I'm all for that.  But we need jobs for the middle- and working-class people that they can live on.  Guys in my hometown used to work at the local paper mill and they employed guys pushing brooms and painting walls at a liveable wage.  Not any more.  

Goes to my point that if you young-uns don't pick the right college major, you're going to get squeezed out in the information/technology-driven employment market.  I know too many graduating kids that want to be photographers or social workers instead of accountants or engineers.  Living in Mom & Dad's basement in the future......


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## mondeo (Jun 10, 2011)

ChileMass said:


> Source for this data?
> 
> Maybe production has increased based on productivity driven by technology, but I guarantee you the number of manufacturing jobs has decreased just as dramatically over that span. It's great to have better productivity, don't get me wrong, I'm all for that. But we need jobs for the middle- and working-class people that they can live on. Guys in my hometown used to work at the local paper mill and they employed guys pushing brooms and painting walls at a liveable wage. Not any more.
> 
> Goes to my point that if you young-uns don't pick the right college major, you're going to get squeezed out in the information/technology-driven employment market. I know too many graduating kids that want to be photographers or social workers instead of accountants or engineers. Living in Mom & Dad's basement in the future......


I came across it when I was looking through stuff for my previous post, can't remember exactly where. It might be value of exports, which would make sense seeing as how the U.S. is focused on stuff we're better at now. $1bn in airplane exports doesn't support nearly as many manufacturing jobs than $1bn in cheap clothing exports. But the jobs it does produce are much higher paying (when's the last time you heard of a $100K/year seamstress?)

I wouldn't weigh anecdotal reductions in manufacturing that heavily. A lot of manufacturing moved South in the 90s, so reduction in the NE industrial base doesn't mean much on the national level. My company's closed down a lot of the work in CT, but has moved a significant amount of that to Maine and Georgia.

But yeah, the culture in this country got wrapped up way too much in too long a period of prosperity. People were comfortable, so they told kids to do what makes you happy, not what makes you money. Too many liberal arts majors.


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## Edd (Jun 10, 2011)

legalskier said:


> It's tough to do even with a conscious effort. I enjoy shopping at a certain big box store because they give priority to American made products.



What big box store are you referring to?  I've become mildly obsessed with this topic recently.  I spent an unfortunate afternoon in Walmart and the Christmas Tree Shop and went around looking at where product after product was made and found way less than 1% made in the U.S.


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## Geoff (Jun 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> But yeah, the culture in this country got wrapped up way too much in too long a period of prosperity. People were comfortable, so they told kids to do what makes you happy, not what makes you money. Too many liberal arts majors.



There's nothing wrong with being a liberal arts major as long as part of your education is picking up the skills required to be competitive in the world economy.   You'd better have your math skills up.   You need computer skills beyond sending text messages and web surfing.    Those need to be core requirements both at the secondary level and at the college level.


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