# Bye Bye Saturday Mail Delivery



## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2013)

http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/06/news/economy/postal-service-cuts/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

In 2005 they had no debt.  Now they are on the verge of not having enough cash on hand to operate for four days :blink:  WTF?


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## marcski (Feb 6, 2013)

It's about time.  IMHO, in this day and age....3 days a week is plenty for residential mail delivery.


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## St. Bear (Feb 6, 2013)

They should've gotten rid of Sat delivery a long time ago.

Does suck for the postage handlers though.  I can't imagine they'll keep the same pay with fewer hours.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2013)

Not surprising.  Think about how much mail volume has decreased in the last 8 years yet they still have the same amount of "stores" open and growing retirement fund obligations.   Who honestly would care if they no longer got mail on Saturday.  Not me.  Heck I'd welcome a reduction to 1 day a week and pay extra for FedEx if I need service on other days


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2013)

Considering that the wide majority of stuff we now get is junk mail, and I mean really bad junk mail, I'd agree that three days is fine.  

And I also find it interesting that they complain about how bad business is.  Whenever I go to my post office to mail a package I can't fit in the self-serve box, I have to stand in line at least 20 minutes because they only have one or two (very slow) tellers.  Maybe if they ran things better....


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## o3jeff (Feb 6, 2013)

I usually don't check my mail on Saturdays unless I am expecting something. Like others have said, 3 days a week is more than enough.


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## ctenidae (Feb 6, 2013)

About time, but still, sad to see it go from a useless nostalgia point of view. Note, they will still be delivering packages on Saturday, as that remains a profitable business. Amazing that they got caught so flat footed by the growth of internet shopping, while FedEx and UPS have bloomed.

Oh, wait. Not surprising at all, considering they're a government agency. Kudos for finally getting up the balls to tell Congress to stay out of their business, though.


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## AdironRider (Feb 6, 2013)

The part that grinds my gears is how they are a private business with govt control. The post office is in somewhat of an "artificial" bad financial situation because the feds are making them fund pensions for people that they havent even hired yet. 

Take that out of the equation and Im almost positive the USPS makes money, unlike Amtrak....


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## wa-loaf (Feb 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/06/news/economy/postal-service-cuts/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
> 
> In 2005 they had no debt.  Now they are on the verge of not having enough cash on hand to operate for four days :blink:  WTF?



Congress is forcing it to prepay retiree health benefits to the tune $5.5 bil a year. That's why they are broke: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/opinion/nocera-free-the-post-office.html?_r=0


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## Nick (Feb 6, 2013)

Some of you will have to wait one extra day for AlpineZone stickers


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## o3jeff (Feb 6, 2013)

wa-loaf said:


> Congress is forcing it to prepay retiree health benefits to the tune $5.5 bil a year. That's why they are broke: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/opinion/nocera-free-the-post-office.html?_r=0



It probably needs to relook it's retiree plans if it can't afford them.... It's a good idea to make them prepay them or else us tax payers will be paying.


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## ctenidae (Feb 6, 2013)

o3jeff said:


> It probably needs to relook it's retiree plans if it can't afford them.... It's a good idea to make them prepay them or else us tax payers will be paying.



They're Union. Taxpayers are paying, either way.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 6, 2013)

o3jeff said:


> It probably needs to relook it's retiree plans if it can't afford them.... It's a good idea to make them prepay them or else us tax payers will be paying.



They're being held to a standard no one else is.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2013)

wa-loaf said:


> Congress is forcing it to prepay retiree health benefits to the tune $5.5 bil a year. That's why they are broke: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/opinion/nocera-free-the-post-office.html?_r=0



Yeah I've heard and seen that.


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> They're Union. Taxpayers are paying, either way.



Their union has no power...


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

wa-loaf said:


> They're being held to a standard no one else is.



yup - no other Govt agency has to do this...

Totally F'd up...  and yeah you guys may not need daily mail but many do..
Lot's of stuff moves through the mail... Prescriptions - checks - all kinds of stuff that people need..


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## ctenidae (Feb 6, 2013)

dmc said:


> Their union has no power...



AFL/CIO does, though


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## Scruffy (Feb 6, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> About time, but still, sad to see it go from a useless nostalgia point of view. Note, they will still be delivering packages on Saturday, as that remains a profitable business. Amazing that they got caught so flat footed by the growth of internet shopping, while FedEx and UPS have bloomed.
> 
> Oh, wait. Not surprising at all, considering they're a government agency. Kudos for finally getting up the balls to tell Congress to stay out of their business, though.




Well, if their package business is profitable, then internet shopping is not their downfall. I'd say it's e-banking, e-bill pay, and just the general shift to paperless that they have no control over. They'll need to shrink to a size that makes them profitable.


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

SO the same law that makes the USPS pay 5 billion into future retirement also keeps them from raising rates to afford it...

crazy...  Really feels like someone is out for them...


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## riverc0il (Feb 6, 2013)

About time. What they really need to do is start looking and planning 5, 10, 25 years out for when mail dies off even more. It is only going to get worse for USPS as society moves towards online solutions and marketing moves online as well. They need to start thinking long term about who needs their services now and who will still need them once the digital generations out number those that are not computer literate. In 25 years, there really shouldn't even be a postal service. What little mail that will be left could be sent parcel via UPS Fedex or other such carrier. Honestly, if I had all of my mail that must be sent via post shipped to my home via UPS or FedEx in letter envelopes, it probably wouldn't cost much more than my stupid post office box fee. Damn condo association and not having a mail box...


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

I so disagree...
there's so many people that need mail..  And depend on it..

Just let the USPS do it's own thing and grow...  
The Postal Act keeps them from doing so...

and that's a pile of crap...


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## ScottySkis (Feb 6, 2013)

dmc said:


> I so disagree...
> there's so many people that need mail..  And depend on it..
> 
> Just let the USPS do it's own thing and grow...
> ...


All I know is my job is only shipping to customers online retail. We never use USPS but always use UPS.


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## riverc0il (Feb 6, 2013)

dmc said:


> I so disagree...
> there's so many people that need mail..  And depend on it..
> 
> Just let the USPS do it's own thing and grow...
> ...


I don't believe there are enough people that absolutely NEED Saturday service to justify the cost. Surely that population is extremely limited. There are Saturday delivery services (albeit expensive) available from the parcel companies. Maybe USPS should keep an option for Express Saturday delivery at a premium cost. 

The business world certainly survives without receiving/sending any regular FedEx or UPS deliveries on Saturday. People could easily adjust their needs and shipping schedules to accommodate the change. Does it serve enough people to justify the expense? I just don't see how that argument could be logically made. There is a difference between a convenience and an absolute need that cannot be accommodated.

How could the USPS grow? What changes could they possibly make to even stop the bleeding, let alone grow, even with the shackles removed? I just don't see it. They're labor force is dedicated to low margin, high volume, labor intensive work. Without substantial price increases, I can't imagine they'll ever get their revenues up to expenses. And any increases in fees or decreases in service will only further hurt USPS in a feedback loop. 

The whole service needs to be reevaluated for the current needs of a modern and internet based society. How many times has the postal service been overhauled since its beginnings or at least since universal road access and interstates? It is time to address what USPS does, what other services could take off the shoulders of USPS, and what people actually need. That needs to be a short term and long term plan, what is going to happen when people in their 20s and 30s are old age? By that time, many college students might never have used a postage stamp in their lives even if things at USPS didn't radically change...


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## AdironRider (Feb 6, 2013)

The Saturday thing is really not going to hurt the people who really need it. According to Yahoo, parcel post, medication, and express will all still run on Saturdays, and any post office that is currently open on Saturdays will remain so. All in all, not that bad as they are mainly just saying, dont expect junk mail on the weekend. 

Only thing that seems remotely annoying is mailing checks, but at the same time, how many people get their mail early enough to make it to a bank by normal hours (noon) on a Saturday, if they are even open? There are also wire and ACH payments that are easy to do online from anywhere.


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

Bank Statements, Checks, cards/letters and prescriptions... 

Lot's of people still use the USPS for this...

The USPS can't even think of growing while shackled by the Govt ridiculous attempt to shut it down...


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

Republicans want to privatize everything...  

And will stop at nothing...


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## riverc0il (Feb 6, 2013)

dmc said:


> Bank Statements, Checks, cards/letters and prescriptions...
> 
> Lot's of people still use the USPS for this...
> 
> The USPS can't even think of growing while shackled by the Govt ridiculous attempt to shut it down...


How are people negatively effected by not getting their bank statement until Monday? Unless someone is mailing a check out the day it is due, no problem (for those that still write checks instead of online banking). Not getting a letter on Saturday isn't even an issue, you can wait until Monday to read Grandma's letter. Prescriptions can sent via parcel and arrive on Saturday. I use USPS. I am forced to rent out a PO Box because USPS doesn't deliver to my home. And I understand not everyone is online. However, even if this was 1970 and there was no internet, we could still live without Saturday delivery. USPS delivered on Sundays in the past... who misses that? Changing times, changing services.



dmc said:


> Republicans want to privatize everything...
> 
> And will stop at nothing...


Not a good argument. I'm a liberal that has never voted Republican ever, not local, not state, not national. USPS is a broken model of operation loosing relevance. You want to talk going against stereotypes? I always thought it was the right trying to cling to useless tradition and stop progress.


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## dmc (Feb 6, 2013)

It may not be a big deal for a bank statement - but a prescription or a SS check could have impact...
I'm not really mad about Saturdays...  But this whole shut it down thing makes me mad...

In rural areas people really depend on the USPS...  
Old people depend on it...
It employs 600,000 people..  I've read that 25% of those people are US Veterans.
Why is everyone in such a rush to make 600,000 people unemployed if it doesn't affect you?
Just doesn't make any sense to me that people would wish bad on people that need jobs in this economy..
To me it's downright mean spirited...

Why not let it try to succeed??

have some compassion...


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## AdironRider (Feb 7, 2013)

dmc said:


> Bank Statements, Checks, cards/letters and prescriptions...
> 
> Lot's of people still use the USPS for this...
> 
> The USPS can't even think of growing while shackled by the Govt ridiculous attempt to shut it down...



Do you absolutely need a bank statement on a Saturday when the banks arent open? 

Do you absolutely need a check that you cannot cash until Monday? SS doesnt send checks starting this year and will only be deposited to debit cards directly, so no issue there either. 

Again, medications, parcels, and express will all still be delivered on Saturdays, so whats your beef other than blind political bias?

Your comments that 600k people are going to lose their jobs because they got rid of Saturday delivery is absurd.


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## dmc (Feb 7, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Your comments that 600k people are going to lose their jobs because they got rid of Saturday delivery is absurd.



Dude.. was referring to people wanting the post office of go away completely..

Beef with Saturdays is only that some may suffer...  Not me... Not you... But some may suffer..
If it takes eliminating Saturday to save $ then so be it..

It's their business to run - since we don't support it with taxes...  

And this is not blind political bias... It's the truth..  Republicans want EVERYTHING privatized...  And get a ton of $$ from UPS and FedEx for campaigns...  
And the fact that they are making the USPS prefund retirement and no other Govt agency is a no-win designed to make the USPS fail...


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## o3jeff (Feb 7, 2013)

Maybe they have to relook their wages, healthcare and retirement packages. Might have to adapt to the economy and eliminate paying pensions/retirement health care to new employees or take a look at other retirement package options.

DMC, iirc doesn't your girlfriend work for the post office?


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## dmc (Feb 7, 2013)

o3jeff said:


> Maybe they have to relook their wages, healthcare and retirement packages. Might have to adapt to the economy and eliminate paying pensions/retirement health care to new employees or take a look at other retirement package options.
> 
> DMC, iirc doesn't your girlfriend work for the post office?



Yes - she is employed by the post office and works around my area at different places to fill in..
So I know a lot about the USPS and ow it works... 

They have been eliminating a lot of people and cutting hours at some PO's around here..  
There's is cost cutting going on but they will never do well prefunding the retirement...


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## Glenn (Feb 7, 2013)

I agree with the nixing of the Saturday delivery. They should also nix Tuesday and Thursday delivery. I think there's still a need for mail, just not the volume of junk that gets sent out. 

This article sums it up nicely: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_23/b4231060885070.htm  First class mail is their bread butter...but the volume of first class mail has fallen below junkmail. 



> The USPS needs three pieces of junk mail to replace the profit of a vanished stamp-bearing letter.



If you want an governmental agency that will deliver important, first class mail. I'm fine with that. However, I'm confident UPS, FedEx of someone else could handle it as well. But I do see an issue with a governmental agency that has become nothing more than an advertising distribution system.


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## ctenidae (Feb 7, 2013)

They could increase revenue, decrease waste, adn make everyone happier by just raising the price of sending bulk mail. That, I would vote for quickly.


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## dmc (Feb 7, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> They could increase revenue, decrease waste, adn make everyone happier by just raising the price of sending bulk mail. That, I would vote for quickly.



Well - since we have no say in the USPS we can't vote..  At least until we start using our taxes to pay for the USPS..
I'd support that too..

But I do know that they make a lot of $ on bulk mail..
I just toss the bulk mail into the paper recycling... Doesn't really bug me for some reason..

I hate spam emails way more...


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## Cannonball (Feb 7, 2013)

My father in-law was a letter carrier.  He's retired now but I know this would have really been a blow to him.  He would have had to golf on his own time on Saturdays instead of getting paid while he was out there.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> My father in-law was a letter carrier. He's retired now but I know this would have really been a blow to him. He would have had to golf on his own time on Saturdays instead of getting paid while he was out there.



:lol:


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## riverc0il (Feb 7, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> They could increase revenue, decrease waste, adn make everyone happier by just raising the price of sending bulk mail. That, I would vote for quickly.


Would that not hurt more than it would help? The level of bulk mail decreases every year from what I understand. Increasing the price may make the volume decrease faster than increases in revenues, no?


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## ctenidae (Feb 7, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Would that not hurt more than it would help? The level of bulk mail decreases every year from what I understand. Increasing the price may make the volume decrease faster than increases in revenues, no?



Potentially, but it may just free up resources that could more profitably sort adn deliver packages.


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## riverc0il (Feb 7, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> Potentially, but it may just free up resources that could more profitably sort adn deliver packages.


They would need more people shipping with USPS to have more packages to deliver. Your solution supposes they can't generate enough revenue because they have a labor allocation problem. I don't see the logic in supposing that freeing up labor to deliver packages will generate more revenue by default. On the flip side, if there is less junk mail to process, they might have less work for all employees to do but then they can't lay them off either due to unions and productivity and revenues would decrease. 

The problem I think, overall, is that discussions about USPS always gravitate towards "how do we fix USPS" or "how can we make it sustainable" etc. When the better question is "what purpose does USPS currently serve? What needs are or are not being met?" Etc. Let's get right down to the root of the issue. Solutions need to be based in the USPS of tomorrow, not trying to band aide the USPS of two hundred years ago.


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## Conrad (Feb 7, 2013)

Some of you are saying 3 days a week would be plenty, but I really think at least 5 days a week is important. Just think about it for a moment how incredible of a resource the postal service is. You can send something almost anywhere in the world (except to North Korea and maybe a few other random places) and it will be delivered in a timely fashion. It is good for Netflix (yes I know, eventually all of that will be done over the internet), and other things, but also for sending packages. Every so often there are other random things that I need to send or be sent. I would really be disappointed if service was cut to less than five days a week.


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## Edd (Feb 8, 2013)

I'd like to have less mail in my life.  99% of the contents are items I did not ask for or want.  I actually send something out less than half a dozen times a year.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't send many letters...
But I do receive my mail from my financial dealings(investments, banking, mortgage, etc) which needs to happen. 
As I don't trust email for that kind of stuff because of internet security..

Also Christmas cards... Letters from friends internationally..  Catalogs that I actually want...  News letters...


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

D, you think those things wouldnt be available to you without the post office? I realize this hits pretty close to home for you as well so thats gotta be tough, but this isnt the end of the world either. 

In 2013 I think you should reconsider your stance on checking bank statements online.


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## ctenidae (Feb 8, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> They would need more people shipping with USPS to have more packages to deliver. Your solution supposes they can't generate enough revenue because they have a labor allocation problem. I don't see the logic in supposing that freeing up labor to deliver packages will generate more revenue by default. On the flip side, if there is less junk mail to process, they might have less work for all employees to do but then they can't lay them off either due to unions and productivity and revenues would decrease.
> 
> The problem I think, overall, is that discussions about USPS always gravitate towards "how do we fix USPS" or "how can we make it sustainable" etc. When the better question is "what purpose does USPS currently serve? What needs are or are not being met?" Etc. Let's get right down to the root of the issue. Solutions need to be based in the USPS of tomorrow, not trying to band aide the USPS of two hundred years ago.



Okay, you're having a more serious discussion than I was. Freeing up resources from low-margin work allows y ou to focus those efforts on higher margin (ie package delivery) work. USPS's biggest probelm is costs. Putting the pension funding issue aside for the moment, it takes 3 bulk mail items to make the revenue of one regularway letter. Presumably it costs just as much to sort and deliver bulk mail (aside from efficiencies in reading addresses adn the like). Your costs on a piece of bulk mail are the same as for regular, so they should cut that business out.

Of course, they can't because they can't lay off employees, and the bulk business probably at least covers some of the cost of the additional workforce they wouldn't need otherwise. So the question isn't really how do we fix USPS, but should be how do we enable USPS to fix itself? There is certainly a roll for the service- whether a 3rd competitor for package delivery or for regular delivery of letters and cards. Granted, a lot of content is delivered digitally now, but the ability to get something from your house to anywhere in the US relatively quickly and quite cheaply has a place even in teh face of digital changes.

So, how to make USPS able to fix itself? It has to be able to rationalize its own business, its services, costs, labor force, and operations. That means getting out from under COngress, and giving it the ability to deal with Unions and determine its own fate.

It also means stopping the pension pre-payment nonsense. The trouble is, that program is entirely a way for Congress to collect revenue and fund other programs. How about we get Congress to tighten its own belt and better rationalize its spending? 

None of that can happen, though. If the USPS can lay off workers and change its service as needed, then thousands fo workers, I mean voters, could lose their jobs. If USPS didn't have to prefund its pension, Congress would have to either cut spending or raise the money somewhere else- neither of which is a popular option.

In the end, I guess we have 2 options- either shoot it ourselves, or cut it free to sink or swim on its own. Unfortunately, we'll probably just keep a company that is #109 on the Forbes 500 list (yes, really) captive, and slowly suck it dry.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> D, you think those things wouldnt be available to you without the post office? I realize this hits pretty close to home for you as well so thats gotta be tough, but this isnt the end of the world either.
> 
> In 2013 I think you should reconsider your stance on checking bank statements online.



Dude.. I totally get my balances online...  But there are some types of communication that I DO NOT DO over the internet..
And I don't think sending those types of communication with UPS or FedEx is the answer...   I'd rather walk down the street and get it from my PO box..

Allowing USPS to compete with FedEx and UPS is the answer and releasing the USPS for having to pre-fund retirement at the level Congress forced them to do will help that...   

I personally encourage my girl to quit the USPS everyday - but only because her real estate business is kicking ass...


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> In the end, I guess we have 2 options- either shoot it ourselves, or cut it free to sink or swim on its own. Unfortunately, we'll probably just keep a company that is #109 on the Forbes 500 list (yes, really) captive, and slowly suck it dry.



Cut it lose... Like we'd do with any other company...
Release them from the pre-fund..  Let them try to succeed and compete...


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

I agree, they need to be set free to compete on the open market. I think they would actually be quite successful. The prefunding retirement is bogus and needs to go away. 

But otherwise, it seems that your argument is kind of like being "set in your ways" a bit no? I get that everyone has preferences, I still get hard checks to deposit at the bank myself for my pay, but on the other hand I dont think this is going to be of any real hindrance to your day to day life. 

What types of communication are you talking about? In my line of work in financial accounting, we trust literally everything to the internet. Of course there are security measures in place, but those are relatively cheap. And were talking info for a billion dollar plus company here. SEC transmissions ,etc. If its a trust thing your going to have to get used to it, because almost all financial companies are going paperless.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

There is correspondence that I prefer to have over mail..
Some of it business some personal..

I've been a data security professional in past jobs.. So I get it... and use my banks online all the time.  
But.. there's just some things I don't like to do over the phone or online...
Mostly it has to do with a company engaging over the phone and asking for passwords or account #'s - legitimately BUT I still don't like doing it..  Many times I'm someplace where I may not trust the connection I'm on OR in a place where I can't spell out passwords and stuff..  I say - just send me a letter and I react when I see it...

It may seem irrational but it's the way i feel


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

I dont see it as irrational. Like I said Im one of the few who still insist on paper paychecks and not direct deposit.... 

Otherwise, for better or worse, I think paperless is going to be the future and were all going to have to adjust.


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## bigbog (Feb 8, 2013)

People will vote for anything in this country based on quarterly profits...not on progress.
If $6billion is what gets the most scrutiny....we've got problems in River City...  In addition to paperless...hi-speed rail, that thing that state representatives made fun of back in the 80s...sure seems like a good mode of transportation that could solve many problems....employment(rural to city...then back home @6pm) and city to rural mail delivery.   Maybe instead of going to war every decade over some perceived threat...we ought to try...we went from chimps in a rocket to landing on the moon in less than a decade....  We have people crying over losing their $100k salaries from DOD layoffs, well put em' to work doing something beneficial.  Pretty bizarre that we still build corporate wealth over going to war.
$.01


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

What? 

How is taking away Saturday delivery class warfare? It affects everyone equally. Nevermind urban areas vote overwhelmingly Liberal.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> What?
> 
> How is taking away Saturday delivery class warfare? It affects everyone equally. Nevermind urban areas vote overwhelmingly Liberal.



Again - Saturday aside...

It may be the case that poorer rural people rely more on mail delivery or having someplace close to get their mail.
Closing PO's will affect some people negatively....

If everyone had internet then I could agree with some of this..  But - making everyone have internet is kinda like adding a tax on the poor..


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

*By the Numbers*
*66 billion* — revenue in 2011, in dollars 
*167.9 billion* — number of mail pieces processed in 2011 
*554 million* — average number of mail pieces processed each day 
*23 million* — average number of mail pieces processed each hour 
*384,000* — average number of mail pieces processed each minute 
*6,400* — average number of mail pieces processed each second 
*40* — percent of the world’s mail volume handled by the Postal Service 
*1.9 billion* — dollar amount paid every two weeks in salaries and benefits 
*546,000* — number of career employees 
*31,509* — number of Postal Service-managed retail offices 
*34 million* — number of work hours reduced equals 19,000 full-time employees 
*213,881* — number of vehicles — the largest civilian fleet in the world
*1.2 billion* — number of miles driven each year by letter carriers and truck drivers 
*39.9 million* — number of address changes processed in 2011
*35.5* — percent of retail revenue from alternative access channels in 2011 
*1.2 million* — number of people who visited usps.com each day 
*62 million* — number of inquiries handled by Postal Service Contact Center in 2011 
*236 million* — dollar amount of online stamp and retail sales at usps.com in 2011
*467 million* — total revenue, in dollars, from Click-N-Ship label purchases in 2011 
*5.6 million* — number of passport applications accepted in 2011
*116 million* — number of money orders issued in 2011 
*543 million* — amount in revenue from 2,500 Automated Postal Centers 
*71,000* — number of stores, banks and ATMs that sell postage stamps
*636,530* — number of new delivery points added to the network in 2011
*0* — tax dollars received for operating the Postal Service

http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-facts/welcome.htm#H1


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

Everyone pretty much has available internet, and if they so choose, it wont cost them any more to do so, whether that means giving up the land line and that bill to substitute with the internet and free long distance, or what have you. 

Everyone has to have car insurance as well, I dont hear complaints. This isnt class warfare, this is an antiquated system falling to the wayside. There are a myriad of other options that prevent any hardship from this happening. 

You cant argue they need to be self sufficient, but on the other hand argue it is in effect a form of "charity" for rural communities. One side has to give.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

Some people can't afford cars let alone insurance...
I read somewhere that 30% of households in the US do not have internet..
We can't expect them to lay out the $$...

When internet is free and safe -  and everyone knows how to use it then we've truly moved on from the "antiquated system"..

Until then we can't expect people to bear a burden just because some better off people don't like the USPS..  Or politicians that are for closing it because or special interest groups from UPS and FedEx are pushing for privatization...

I'm the guy that always has compassion for the less fortunate..
Things are not easy for many people... We don't need to make things worse for them..

Let's look to the future but not hurt our own...


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

Alright, I hear you, but you are making some rather large sweeping generalizations there that I dont think were going to agree on. I can respect different opinions.


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

Until we can start really looking into this and separate the special interest from reality... Generalizations is all I have to work on..

I'm open to debate..  
always...


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Alright, I hear you, but you are making some rather large sweeping generalizations there that I dont think were going to agree on. I can respect different opinions.



I'm mostly with DMC on this one.   

The US Mail might not be essential for me other than to get Netflix DVDs.   For the poor who don't have bank accounts & credit cards, internet connectivity, and an automobile, the US Mail is their lifeline.   I have no problem with killing Saturday delivery but you need services like COD and money orders for the less fortunate.


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## AdironRider (Feb 8, 2013)

You dont need the post office for money orders. 

Again, you cant have it both ways. Is it a charity or business that needs to turn a profit?


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## dmc (Feb 8, 2013)

Business that needs to turn a profit and handle it's own retirement and cost structure without having congress meddling in there affairs....


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## Cannonball (Feb 8, 2013)

dmc said:


> Business that needs to turn a profit and handle it's own retirement and cost structure without having congress meddling in there affairs....



Isn't that what a private business does?  I guess I'm not entirely sure I understand your stance in this thread. You seem to be upset about privatizing but also seem to be wanting them to run as a private company.  I'm not really arguing with you here just trying to understand the subtlety that I seem to be missing.


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> You dont need the post office for money orders.
> 
> Again, you cant have it both ways. Is it a charity or business that needs to turn a profit?



The Post Office is a public service.   It's part of the national infrastructure just like roads.   It absolutely doesn't need to turn a profit.


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## dmc (Feb 10, 2013)

Geoff said:


> The Post Office is a public service.   It's part of the national infrastructure just like roads.   It absolutely doesn't need to turn a profit.



Just needs to be sustainable..


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## o3jeff (Feb 20, 2013)

Interesting.

http://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13_026.htm


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## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2013)

Looks like Saturday mail is staying due to Congress' insistence....


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## Edd (Apr 17, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Saturday mail is staying due to Congress' insistence....



I don't get that at all. They're trying to save money and Congress says no?  I'm missing something.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2013)

Edd said:


> I don't get that at all. They're trying to save money and Congress says no? I'm missing something.



Exactly. Congress thinks that constituents demand said service.

The relation between the government and USPS is a large part of the problem.


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## Glenn (Apr 18, 2013)

This constituent doesn't need Saturday service. There are 5 other days to put mass marketing in the mailbox. Save the fuel and manhours. 

Put all of your mail aside for a week and see how much of it is useful. 90% of what I get is useless.


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## Nick (Apr 18, 2013)

Yep, and it will continue to decline. I bet in 5 years it will be just spam and the occasional wedding / birthday invite from someone who is older than 35 and still believes in sending things USPS


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2013)

Glenn said:


> This constituent doesn't need Saturday service. There are 5 other days to put mass marketing in the mailbox. Save the fuel and manhours.
> 
> Put all of your mail aside for a week and see how much of it is useful. 90% of what I get is useless.




I hear you.  Congress has something else in mind I guess.  I was going to do a mail census a few weeks ago...and I had many things that were not even meant for me.  So yes a lot of junk mail.


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## dmc (Apr 18, 2013)

Glenn said:


> This constituent doesn't need Saturday service. There are 5 other days to put mass marketing in the mailbox. Save the fuel and manhours.
> 
> Put all of your mail aside for a week and see how much of it is useful. 90% of what I get is useless.



Glad we have you to speak to all the rural people that depend on the USPS...    

The USPS should be allowed to make their own decisions since they are not subsidized by our tax $$....


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## ctenidae (Apr 18, 2013)

dmc said:


> The USPS should be allowed to make their own decisions since they are not subsidized by our tax $$....



The only valid point in the entire discussion, in my opinion.


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## Geoff (Apr 18, 2013)

dmc said:


> The USPS should be allowed to make their own decisions since they are not subsidized by our tax $$....



I disagree.  The USPS exists for the public good.  They can't be allowed to exist completely unregulated since they might make decisions that conflict with 'the public good'.   No different from other regulated companies that provide infrastructure under a monopoly.   Electric company.   Natural gas company.   Phone.  Cable.  Etc...   It's not like UPS or FEDEX are going to step in and deliver mail for the price of a first class stamp.


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## ctenidae (Apr 18, 2013)

Geoff said:


> I disagree.  The USPS exists for the public good.  They can't be allowed to exist completely unregulated since they might make decisions that conflict with 'the public good'.   No different from other regulated companies that provide infrastructure under a monopoly.   Electric company.   Natural gas company.   Phone.  Cable.  Etc...   It's not like UPS or FEDEX are going to step in and deliver mail for the price of a first class stamp.



"Regulated" and "Make Decisions" are two different things. If Congress wants to set a regulated rate of return the USPS is allowed to make, then that's fine. Likely, USPS would shut down Saturday delivery. 

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for the necessity of Saturday delivery to the public good. What is ever so critical that it must be received on a Saturday? If there is something, then Congress could require whoever is sending that vital piece of mail out to ensure a Friday delivery. And USPS could charge more for that guarantee.


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## ScottySkis (Apr 18, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> "Regulated" and "Make Decisions" are two different things. If Congress wants to set a regulated rate of return the USPS is allowed to make, then that's fine. Likely, USPS would shut down Saturday delivery.
> 
> I have yet to hear a convincing argument for the necessity of Saturday delivery to the public good. What is ever so critical that it must be received on a Saturday? If there is something, then Congress could require whoever is sending that vital piece of mail out to ensure a Friday delivery. And USPS could charge more for that guarantee.



How about they charge more for Saturday drop off like UPS does.


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## ctenidae (Apr 18, 2013)

Scotty said:


> How about they charge more for Saturday drop off like UPS does.



That works, too.


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## Geoff (Apr 18, 2013)

ctenidae said:


> "Regulated" and "Make Decisions" are two different things. If Congress wants to set a regulated rate of return the USPS is allowed to make, then that's fine. Likely, USPS would shut down Saturday delivery.
> 
> I have yet to hear a convincing argument for the necessity of Saturday delivery to the public good. What is ever so critical that it must be received on a Saturday? If there is something, then Congress could require whoever is sending that vital piece of mail out to ensure a Friday delivery. And USPS could charge more for that guarantee.



Read the US Constitution:
Article I, Section 8, Clause 7 of the United States Constitution, known as the Postal Clause or the Postal Power, empowers Congress "To establish Post Offices and post Roads". 

Congress completely controls what the Post Office does.   I don't care about Saturday delivery but, obviously, Congress does.   The US Postal Service is not a private profit-making enterprise.   "regulated rate of return" is nonsense when talking about the post office.


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## Glenn (Apr 22, 2013)

dmc said:


> Glad we have you to speak to all the rural people that depend on the USPS...
> 
> The USPS should be allowed to make their own decisions since they are not subsidized by our tax $$....



Ironically enough, I have a rual mailbox in Vermont. Aside from magazines, the same 90% rule applies.


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## o3jeff (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm lucky if I check my mail box three times a week.


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## bvibert (Apr 23, 2013)

They deliver mail on Saturdays?


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## Cannonball (Apr 23, 2013)

The mail is basically forced on us. It is nearly impossible to opt out of having a mailing address. Yet you can't stop unwanted mail from being delivered to you. I get maybe 2 pieces of wanted/useful mail per month. But I have to clean out my mailbox every 2 days just to keep it from overflowing with junk.  All of that ends up in the trash, costing me and my town money to remove. Saturday delivery is just the beginning of the things that are wrong with usps.


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