# Burton's "Poach for Freedom" Contest



## Greg (Nov 29, 2007)

Can't tell if this is legit or not:

http://community.burton.com/forums/thread/372855.aspx

Thoughts?


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## sledhaulingmedic (Nov 29, 2007)

> " ...this blatant disregard for the Constitution of the United States of America..."



I have nothing against those who choose to ride on one plank, but this type of absurd rhetoric makes me want to spew chunks.  The "discrimination" and "constitutional rights" arguments are offensive.  You are not granted protection under the consititution because you choose to slide on one plank.  If it is, why didn't the late Johnny Coccrain argue it to the supreme court.  I can hear it now:  "if the board can slide, you must let them ride!"

It's like saying that banning commercial vehicles on parkways (assuming clearence isn't an issue) is a violation of constitutional rights.

It doesn't bother me in the least that boarders want to ride at these last few hold outs. Taos, Alta, Dear Valet will eventually change, I believe.  MRG, not a chance.

Flame away, I'm wearing Nomex


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## pepperdawg (Nov 29, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


> why didn't the late Johnny Coccrain argue it to the supreme court.  I can hear it now:  "if the board can slide, you must let them ride!"



Now thats some funny sheet!!!


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## Greg (Nov 29, 2007)

As been argued many times before, snowboarders are welcome at these places. They just have to ride on skis... :lol:


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## campgottagopee (Nov 29, 2007)

oh boy, this is gonna be a good one....
I'm going to keep this short and sweet (could go on and on w/this one). If this contest is legit, then shame on Burton for spurring on such actions. I only say this because what good will come out of this??? IMO, NONE!!! Nothing good will happen, in fact, I think it will just delay these reorts from allowing boarders even longer.


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 29, 2007)

Very interesting. Find it funny Corporate America is funding a contest like this. But as the forum stated the site will be live Friday. Time will tell if its real or not. On the other hand I board and will gladly spend my money with any area that will take it. Dont want me there not coming. Plus there is plenty of free and legal backcountry to be had. Wooo Hoooo!!!!!! Everyone off to a great start to the weekend Throw em back Thursday:razz:


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## dmc (Nov 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> As been argued many times before, snowboarders are welcome at these places. They just have to ride on skis... :lol:



Even with the smiley - I find that statement incredibly nausiating...


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## drjeff (Nov 29, 2007)

If it's legit,  I'd bet the most difficult one based on location would be Taos.  Deer Valley, easily accessable via Park City Mtn. resort.  Alta via. Snowbird - no brainer, although the sneak attack from the Solitude side might stand a better success rate.  Mad River, well someone will trudge over from Sugarbush for that poach.  Taos and it's stand alone nature will make that one a bit more difficult.

I've got nothing against boarders and by no means want to turn it it a :flame: war,  but on those days when as a skier I choose to goto one of those mountains (usually either Alta or Deer Valley during my yearly Utah trip) it's a noticeable difference.  Frankly if those resorts have stayed board free this long without any financial hardship,  I doubt they'll be changing their policies anytime soon.


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## dmc (Nov 29, 2007)

drjeff said:


> on those days when as I skier I choose to goto one of those mountains (usually either Alta or Deer Valley during my yearly Utah trip) it's a noticeable difference.



kinda like when you go to a white supremist rally and you don't see any black guys?


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## Greg (Nov 29, 2007)

dmc said:


> Even with the smiley - I find that statement incredibly nausiating...



:smash:

Sorry, D. Perhaps it is a bit condescending, and I know how strongly you feel about this...


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## dmc (Nov 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> :smash:
> 
> Sorry, D. Perhaps it is a bit condescending, and I know how strongly you feel about this...



And the funny thing is...  I HAVE and still can ski MRG and ALTA...

I just don't like the whole exclusionary stuff...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Nov 29, 2007)

*Johnny Cochran argues for snowboarder's rights before the supreme court*


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## OldsnowboarderME (Nov 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> Can't tell if this is legit or not:
> 
> http://community.burton.com/forums/thread/372855.aspx
> 
> Thoughts?


 Interesting indeed .. I have been working on plans for a mission.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Nov 29, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


>


 My board can slide and I will ride ... Oh MRG...


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## David Metsky (Nov 29, 2007)

No one has ever stopped boarders from riding the slopes at MRG.  You just can't ride the lifts.  Does it really count as poaching if they let you in?


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## AdironRider (Nov 29, 2007)

This whole debate is f*cking stupid.


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## JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod (Nov 29, 2007)

This is just another poor campaign for Burton to attempt and lose their "corporate" image. Burton has become such a mega-company and they have souled-out in many ways. I have nothing against a company and maximizing profits...business is business. I do have a problem with a company that has historically made very shady business and advertising decisions in an attempt to convince the snowboarding community that they are "Core"....    How many oldschoolers are in here? Does anyone remember 1988 (i believe that was the year).  Burton attempted to Patend the "snowboard"...  At the US Open that year there were stickers by all of the non-burton riders that said "Boycott Burton, You can't patend fun"...    it was hilarious calamity. Fights all over the place..  People forget those days!   There has been many other instances, this is just one example.      On another note, I think its hilarious that resorts still dont 'accept' snowboarding.  Snowboarding saved the ski industry in more ways than one.


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 29, 2007)

drjeff said:


> If it's legit,  I'd bet the most difficult one based on location would be Taos.  Deer Valley, easily accessable via Park City Mtn. resort.  Alta via. Snowbird - no brainer, although the sneak attack from the Solitude side might stand a better success rate.  Mad River, well someone will trudge over from Sugarbush for that poach.  Taos and it's stand alone nature will make that one a bit more difficult.
> 
> I've got nothing against boarders and by no means want to turn it it a :flame: war,  but on those days when as a skier I choose to goto one of those mountains (usually either Alta or Deer Valley during my yearly Utah trip) it's a noticeable difference.  Frankly if those resorts have stayed board free this long without any financial hardship,  I doubt they'll be changing their policies anytime soon.



I head out west every year, never to visit an area but always to Heli or Cat-Track. Have fun at the moutain while I am grabbing guranteed freshies. This whole skier- boarder thing has to stop.I always say I have skier ettiquite(raised a skier) but love to ride. Sorry:roll:


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 29, 2007)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Interesting indeed .. I have been working on plans for a mission.



You dont need to plan a mission, we can show you in. This whole thing is ridiculous. Funny but ridiculous:dunce:


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 29, 2007)

Last note: I looked at what I believe was Gregs videos of MRG today from U-Tube and it brought back some great memories, but I have as many from the stashes at sugarbush.I can sneak in for a run or I can hang all day.At 44 I will hang for the day.


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## Greg (Nov 29, 2007)

WoooHoooo said:


> Last note: I looked at what I believe was Gregs videos of MRG today from U-Tube and it brought back some great memories



Dis be it?



Once MRG goes 100%, I'm there!


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## freeheel_skier (Nov 30, 2007)

I am picking up snowboarding....I could use the xtra 5k!  Now I need a cinematographer!

Is that gonna cost a lot of $$$$$?


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 30, 2007)

That link asks me to sign on to the forum.  I dont feel like joining more sites.  Anyone wanna copy/paste?


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 30, 2007)

freeheel_skier said:


> I am picking up snowboarding....I could use the xtra 5k!  Now I need a cinematographer!
> 
> Is that gonna cost a lot of $$$$$?



Hey Free Heel, I have plenty of open court time, Let me know when you want to come by the clup and play a few sets.


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 30, 2007)

WoooHoooo said:


> Hey Free Heel, I have plenty of open court time, Let me know when you want to come by the clup and play a few sets.



That should be club (sorry)


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## WoooHoooo (Nov 30, 2007)

Greg said:


> Dis be it?
> 
> 
> 
> Once MRG goes 100%, I'm there!



That is it. Wooo Hoooo!!!!!


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## drjeff (Nov 30, 2007)

dmc said:


> kinda like when you go to a white supremist rally and you don't see any black guys?



No more like the difference between watching some wanna-be in a local band verses a real muscian


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## dmc (Nov 30, 2007)

drjeff said:


> No more like the difference between watching some wanna-be in a local band verses a real muscian



I am a real muscian...  Ask anyboidy who's seen me play...

Nice job...  But I'm pretty comfortable with my playing..

I was going to toss in a blast about doctors...  But I have a couple in my family...


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## SnowRider (Nov 30, 2007)

The number of snowboarders inceased from about 2 million in 1990 to more than 7 million in 2000. *According to industry projections, snowboarders will outnumber skiers by 2012.*

See you in 2012 when the industry has to take us as there biggest customer. Then we can outnumber the skiers and they will see how we feel. 

Then we can buy our own resorts...Jay maybe...or how about Sugarloaf. Better yet buy Mad River and topple its communists leadership and attack it finacialy until the mountain crumbles by itself ;-):razz:


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## drjeff (Nov 30, 2007)

dmc said:


> I am a real muscian...  Ask anyboidy who's seen me play...
> 
> Nice job...  But I'm pretty comfortable with my playing..
> 
> I was going to toss in a blast about doctors...  But I have a couple in my family...



I'll keep it above the belt if you choose to, but racism (even inferences)is one area I NEVER mess around with!  Truce??


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## dmc (Nov 30, 2007)

drjeff said:


> I'll keep it above the belt if you choose to, but racism (even inferences)is one area I NEVER mess around with!  Truce??



Whatever...


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## danny p (Nov 30, 2007)

i still don't understand why there is so much animosity towards snowboarders from skiers....i don't think its mutual (don't think snowboarders care about skiers).  I see it as peas in a pod, were all sliding on snow from the top to the bottom.....


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## tirolerpeter (Nov 30, 2007)

*"Freedom"*

I do not have any problem with sharing a mountain with snowboarders.  One of my sons and his wife are snowboarders and I love sharing a day out on the slopes with them.  Unfortunately, there are people who seem to think they are "alone" on the slopes.  Last week "The Canyons" opened with ONE route of man-made snow from the top to a mid-mountain lift.  About half way down there was an area where boarders had improvised a "mini park" off to the side of that single trail.  That was fine, since at that point the trail was relatively wide.   What did create a problem was that a large group of them was sitting on the snow completely across the trail, sometimes two and three deep, requiring skiers and other "riders" to slalom around them.  That is the kind of "F-You, I'm alone in the world" behavior that generates animosity among users of a trail.  What was worse, their staging area was just around a turn in the trail and not very visible.  I would have been equally annoyed had there been a crowd of skiers milling about in a group blocking the trail, but that was not the case.


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## danny p (Nov 30, 2007)

totally agree with you peter. as a snowboarder, I get pissed when I see situations like that, because a.) they are usually in my way and b.)  i know they are making a bad name for snowboarders. I personally don't think of it as "f you i;m alone" i just think they are naive to the dangerous situation they are causing.  Either way it gets me mad.  I have had problems with skiers standing in groups on trails as well, but the main issue is usually with snowboarders unfortunately...


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## campgottagopee (Nov 30, 2007)

SnowRider said:


> The number of snowboarders inceased from about 2 million in 1990 to more than 7 million in 2000. *According to industry projections, snowboarders will outnumber skiers by 2012.*
> 
> See you in 2012 when the industry has to take us as there biggest customer. Then we can outnumber the skiers and they will see how we feel.
> 
> Then we can buy our own resorts...Jay maybe...or how about Sugarloaf. Better yet buy Mad River and topple its communists leadership and attack it finacialy until the mountain crumbles by itself ;-):razz:



What's this we chit---you gotta mouse in your pocket????:razz:


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## dmc (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm no park guy...  But sitting in the park is pretty common as people wait for stuff to free up.


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## danny p (Nov 30, 2007)

dmc said:


> I'm no park guy...  But sitting in the park is pretty common as people wait for stuff to free up.




yeah sitting in a designated terrain park waiting to drop is actually proper etiquette (sp.?) and is necessary for safety and i got no probs with that.


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## Greg (Nov 30, 2007)

Greg said:


> Can't tell if this is legit or not:
> 
> http://community.burton.com/forums/thread/372855.aspx
> 
> Thoughts?



Well, it's legit:

http://www.burton.com/poachers/


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## campgottagopee (Nov 30, 2007)

Simply amazing:dunce:


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## BLESS (Nov 30, 2007)

personally, I think it's kinda funny.  The fact  that someone would get all up in arms about someone poaching at one of these places,  is utterly ridiculous.  There are a lot more serious things to worry about in todays world.


That being said, I'm a skier and am all for the mtns running the operations however they see fit.......I wouldn't have any problems with a "snowboards only"  mtn.


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## bvibert (Nov 30, 2007)

Hawkshot99 said:


> That link asks me to sign on to the forum.  I dont feel like joining more sites.  Anyone wanna copy/paste?



I got the same thing, I think they might have removed the original thread.  I can view other threads without logging in...


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## JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod (Nov 30, 2007)

Its really not amazing. Burton pulls stunts like this every few years in an attempt to gain back market share and 'street cred'. If you look at the history of the company, they have been influential in progressing the sport, but in the same breath they have had their share of hiccups, backpeddling and shouldnt be viewed as pioneers of the sport. The real pioneers are Tom Sims, the founder of Winterstick, Chuck Barfoot among others. Jake Burton was there in the early days but more "along for the ride".


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## Greg (Nov 30, 2007)

bvibert said:


> I got the same thing, I think they might have removed the original thread.  I can view other threads without logging in...



If you search the forums for "poacher" you can find it. The OP just replaced his post with the link to the poacher page though.


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## Big Game (Nov 30, 2007)

Most people are cool enough not to give a damn how you get your grove on. But there's always others who need to cockblock. That's the way the world works.


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## bvibert (Nov 30, 2007)

Greg said:


> If you search the forums for "poacher" you can find it. The OP just replaced his post with the link to the poacher page though.



Um yeah, well I still can't find it, but I don't really care either.  I'm pretty sure I got the gist of it from the poacher page though...


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## awf170 (Nov 30, 2007)

Greg said:


> Well, it's legit:
> 
> http://www.burton.com/poachers/




I like how in the MRG video they basically act like the most stereotypical douche bag snowboarders.  They cut people off, take the whole trail over, and fly by beginners.  Good job morons, that is really going to get MRG to allow you guys to snowboard there.  How about trying the show that some snowboarders actually can be in control, ski bumps just fine, and get along with skiers?


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## bvibert (Nov 30, 2007)

awf170 said:


> I like how in the MRG video they... They cut people off, take the whole trail over, and fly by beginners...



They do that throughout the whole video, not just at MRG.  Pretty lame on their part IMHO.  I must say though that the patrollers at the last resort they 'poached' seemed pretty lame for hassling them as much as it looked like they did...


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## RIDEr (Nov 30, 2007)

I was rather disappointed to see the video cutting off, slapping and spraying skiers.  This shouldn't be a true resemble of the standard snowboarder on the mountain.  The fun in this whole poaching ended when that began... should these video's continue I hope to see more of a better acting class than the white trash snowboarders and burton employees....


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## RIDEr (Nov 30, 2007)

bvibert said:


> the last resort they 'poached' seemed pretty lame for hassling them as much as it looked like they did...


 
That was a complete control issue that they lost and was completely uncalled for.. I agree.


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## campgottagopee (Nov 30, 2007)

RIDEr said:


> I was rather disappointed to see the video cutting off, slapping and spraying skiers.  This shouldn't be a true resemble of the standard snowboarder on the mountain.  The fun in this whole poaching ended when that began... should these video's continue I hope to see more of a better acting class than the white trash snowboarders and burton employees....



AMEN!!!! I ski with a bunch of boarders that flat ass rip!!! I wish they could board at MRG but they can't so they ski. I'm not in favor of this "contest" but i hope the people who win  give boarding the props it deserves by throwin' down kickass runs.


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## DJC (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm probably coming off a little nuts considering this is my first post...but below is the email I just sent to Burton...that video really upset me...

I'm not one to spend time writing to corporations or complaining to customer service but I have to say something about your poaching video.  First off - I'm a die hard snowboarder, 31, live in NYC but own a condo in Utah and ride both west and east at least 30 days/year.  I own a Burton Custom X, a Burton Triumph (modified into a split), couple pairs Burton boots, couple pairs Burton bindings, and Burton 3L gore tex pants, plus the obligatory t shirts, etc.  I'd love to ride Taos or Alta and have no problem with the rallying cry to open up these areas to riders...but I have a BIG problem with the crap your riders pulled during those videos - scaring the shit out of beginner skiers?  spraying skiers?  cutting off skiers?  That is total childish crap and is EXACTLY why these resorts think they shouldn't allow riders.  Burton should be ashamed of the behavior displayed in those videos.  The vast majority of riders (and YOUR customers) are solid people who prefer a board but understand the etiquette everyone must exhibit on the mountain.  Your riders displayed a total lack of class.

As stated above, I have at least $2,000 worth of Burton equipment in my apt right now...I'll never purchase another Burton product again unless I see the video taken down and an apology posted.


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## RIDEr (Nov 30, 2007)

Forget the corporations, go for the smaller companies that still enjoying making every single board they make:

http://www.neversummer.com/

http://www.venturesnowboards.com/

BTW, welcome to AZ!


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## bvibert (Nov 30, 2007)

Welcome DJC, nice first post and well thought out letter.


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## JimG. (Nov 30, 2007)

DJC said:


> I'm probably coming off a little nuts considering this is my first post...but below is the email I just sent to Burton...that video really upset me...
> 
> I'm not one to spend time writing to corporations or complaining to customer service but I have to say something about your poaching video.  First off - I'm a die hard snowboarder, 31, live in NYC but own a condo in Utah and ride both west and east at least 30 days/year.  I own a Burton Custom X, a Burton Triumph (modified into a split), couple pairs Burton boots, couple pairs Burton bindings, and Burton 3L gore tex pants, plus the obligatory t shirts, etc.  I'd love to ride Taos or Alta and have no problem with the rallying cry to open up these areas to riders...but I have a BIG problem with the crap your riders pulled during those videos - scaring the shit out of beginner skiers?  spraying skiers?  cutting off skiers?  That is total childish crap and is EXACTLY why these resorts think they shouldn't allow riders.  Burton should be ashamed of the behavior displayed in those videos.  The vast majority of riders (and YOUR customers) are solid people who prefer a board but understand the etiquette everyone must exhibit on the mountain.  Your riders displayed a total lack of class.
> 
> As stated above, I have at least $2,000 worth of Burton equipment in my apt right now...I'll never purchase another Burton product again unless I see the video taken down and an apology posted.



Wow. Love the passion. Well said.

I didn't look at the vid because I'm a little tired of this particular argument.


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## Mark_151 (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm sure Burton wouldn't mind if I got myself hired there with some kick-ass self-selling and my dynamite resume, and then kicked back with my feet up on the desk in my cube and surfed the net all day and didn't do a lick of work, because it's my "Constitutional Right", and it's all about freedom......


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## bobbutts (Dec 1, 2007)

DJC said:


> I have a BIG problem with the crap your riders pulled during those videos - scaring the shit out of beginner skiers?  spraying skiers?  cutting off skiers?  That is total childish crap and is EXACTLY why these resorts think they shouldn't allow riders.  Burton should be ashamed of the behavior displayed in those videos.  The vast majority of riders (and YOUR customers) are solid people who prefer a board but understand the etiquette everyone must exhibit on the mountain.  Your riders displayed a total lack of class.



Agree with this too.


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## riverc0il (Dec 1, 2007)

Not sure how other shareholders feel, but personally I love the idea that snowboarders would hike up and "poach" a run. Cheers to them. That said, this type of off the wall rhetoric and posturing only further entrenches my opinion that Mad River should stay skis only. If the snowboard community wants to get in on these areas, they should try a less hostile approach, IMO. It is always easier to change someones opinion when you befriend them rather than call what they think "stupid." Diologue is always better than antagonism if you want to change things.... but that only suggests this stunt isn't so much to change things at all but rather, as someone suggested, "street cred" or rather marketing.


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## Greg (Dec 1, 2007)

Right. Consider this free advertising for MRG....


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## Hawkshot99 (Dec 1, 2007)

I received this today....



> http://www.burton.com/poacher
> 
> There are four resorts in North America that still don’t allow snowboarding. In the face of this blatant disregard for the Constitution of the United States of America, poaching isn’t simply a peaceful form of protest; it’s truly your patriotic duty. It’s time we take a stand and let these elitists know that it’s not acceptable to discriminate. Power to the poachers!
> 
> ...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 2, 2007)

DJC said:


> I'm probably coming off a little nuts considering this is my first post...but below is the email I just sent to Burton...that video really upset me...
> 
> I'm not one to spend time writing to corporations or complaining to customer service but I have to say something about your poaching video.  First off - I'm a die hard snowboarder, 31, live in NYC but own a condo in Utah and ride both west and east at least 30 days/year.  I own a Burton Custom X, a Burton Triumph (modified into a split), couple pairs Burton boots, couple pairs Burton bindings, and Burton 3L gore tex pants, plus the obligatory t shirts, etc.  I'd love to ride Taos or Alta and have no problem with the rallying cry to open up these areas to riders...but I have a BIG problem with the crap your riders pulled during those videos - scaring the shit out of beginner skiers?  spraying skiers?  cutting off skiers?  That is total childish crap and is EXACTLY why these resorts think they shouldn't allow riders.  Burton should be ashamed of the behavior displayed in those videos.  The vast majority of riders (and YOUR customers) are solid people who prefer a board but understand the etiquette everyone must exhibit on the mountain.  Your riders displayed a total lack of class.
> 
> As stated above, I have at least $2,000 worth of Burton equipment in my apt right now...I'll never purchase another Burton product again unless I see the video taken down and an apology posted.



Well said, and welcome aboard!

As I've said, I have nothing against those who snowboard. In fact, I have nothing against any particular class of people.  Oh wait.  I lied.  I don't like a$$holes.  I don't care what color your skin is, what church, temple or mosque you go to, whether you ride on one, to, or more planks, or where your last name came from.  That makes no difference to me .If , however, you are an a$$hole, it's my god-given right to discriminate against you, and that is not protected by the consititution.

If Burton wants to try to sell snowboards by promoting assinine behavior, then they've really sunk to an all-time low.  Snowboarders want to be accepted at resorts someone thinks they way to do it is through obnoxious and childish behavior?  Doesn't fly in my book.  I might not be the brightest bulb in the string or hold opinions that are shared by the majority on many things, but I don't think I'm alone.


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## riverc0il (Dec 2, 2007)

Sled points out an interesting dichotomy within the sliding world and that is snowboarding wants to be accepted and mainstream but also wants to hold onto its origins as an upstart alternative deviant culture. Kind of like so called "alternative" music going mainstream in the 90s. It is kind of hard to hold onto the heart of an "image" when you have already "sold out" but then you make people that buy into the "marketing" or "image" look like tools. This happens all the time but it is always interesting to see it garbled up and swallowed whole.


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2007)

In the end, no matter what kind of sliding tool is attached to your feet, it's just sliding around on snow.

I believe the ban gives those areas that enforce them free marketing...it may have started because of some ideal, but in the end it boils down to getting attention.

There is no doubt there is a group of skiers who want places without snowboarders. And that offends some (many) who snowboard. 

But behaving like an ass does not win any friends. So it really is just another play for attention.


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## 56fish (Dec 2, 2007)

JimG. said:


> But behaving like an ass does not win any friends. So it really is just another play for attention.



Yep....and, great marketing 4 all concerned.

:beer:


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## DJC (Dec 2, 2007)

Thanks to all for the welcome!  I will certainly post Burton's reply...if i actually get one...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 2, 2007)

riverc0il said:


> Sled points out an interesting dichotomy within the sliding world and that is snowboarding wants to be accepted and mainstream but also wants to hold onto its origins as an upstart alternative deviant culture. Kind of like so called "alternative" music going mainstream in the 90s. It is kind of hard to hold onto the heart of an "image" when you have already "sold out" but then you make people that buy into the "marketing" or "image" look like tools. This happens all the time but it is always interesting to see it garbled up and swallowed whole.



Once again Steve, you found my point through my garbled ramblings.

I think the irony is, that if snowboarders had taken this tact 25 years ago and tried to take the snowsports world by force, I doubt we'd be having this conversation today.  There might be 4 areas that permitted snowboarding and the rest would still ban it.

As Jim points out, it's all about sliding and having fun.  Let's try not to lose sight of that, in spite of  a big manufacturer's effort to say otherwise.

Again, an outstanding first post.  Welcome.


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 4, 2007)

>>>Bump<<<

Funny how this thread ran it's course  here and stayed civil and it turned into a flame war, locked, revived, soon to be locked again on SJ.  Speacks to the quality over here, I guess,


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## bvibert (Dec 4, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


> >>>Bump<<<
> 
> Funny how this thread ran it's course  here and stayed civil and it turned into a flame war, locked, revived, soon to be locked again on SJ.  Speacks to the quality over here, I guess,



I don't go over there too often, but it seems like every time I hear about it there's some sort of huge battle going on...


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## riverc0il (Dec 4, 2007)

There have been a few locks on AZ before.....

Its internet forums. People get emotional, things get out of hand, threads get locked. It happens.


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## bvibert (Dec 4, 2007)

riverc0il said:


> There have been a few locks on AZ before.....
> 
> Its internet forums. People get emotional, things get out of hand, threads get locked. It happens.



True, I guess I would only hear about the controversial threads over there.  I'm sure there's plenty of civil ones too....


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## SnowRider (Dec 4, 2007)

From a riders point of view I want to say a couple things.
-At MRG they wern't that out of control...they were a little rowdy but nothing to outrageous
-Then things got out of hand and they became complete assholes (the girls at tahoes i think?)
-The people were different every time I believe
-And lastly sometimes they were out of control. Other times they were rowdy but not out of control
-And can I say that I personally found the MRG one kind of funny because all of the disscusions we have on here about it


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## DJC (Dec 4, 2007)

SnowRider said:


> From a riders point of view I want to say a couple things.
> -At MRG they wern't that out of control...they were a little rowdy but nothing to outrageous
> -Then things got out of hand and they became complete assholes (the girls at tahoes i think?)
> -The people were different every time I believe
> ...




Funny cause I was laughing at it during the MRG thing, but then the girls at taos or alta (can't remember which) were totally out of line.


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## catskills (Dec 4, 2007)

Lots of good posts here.  The new guy DJC and seasoned veteran Sled.  The whole poaching thing is funny and no big deal.  Personally myself and most people in snow sports don't care what you have on your feet sliding down the mountain. The important part is your outside having fun, maybe soaking up some rays or enjoying a powder day. 

Burton showing videos of snowboarders hassling skiers in a beginner area is really low.     *This makes Jake Burton lower than Whale Pooh*.  Jake was recently elected to the Hall of Fame a few months back.  After showing videos of riders hassling skiers in a beginner area they should kick Jake's  a$$ out.  

I would have loved to have listened in on the Burton marketing strategy meeting when they came up with this idea.  :smash:    

I hope this backfires on Burton.  It would be great if  other snowboarding companies increase market share and Jake Burton is put out of business.  Just to clarify, I don't want any less snowboarders on the hill, I just want Jake Burton to go away.


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## Method9455 (Dec 4, 2007)

It won't backfire on Burton. The people who are pissed about it are not the ones they are trying to sell to. That guy who said he had the triumph and the custom x and wouldn't buy any more product, I see where you are coming, but if you are buying a triumph and a custom x you are obviously at the very high end of the skill range and a free rider. Try a GNU Altered Genetics, trust me you will be much happier. Or an Arbor A-Frame or Crossbow. All handmade by real legit companies, don't even bother with Burton ever again. That being said, Burton sells 90% of their boards in the custom or lower range, they want to sell to people who are beginner/intermediate and what the "snowboaridng" image. Burton is the most main stream of the snowboarding companies so they get all those people to jump on their gear so they can be "core", which compared to the Solomon or K2 rental board they learned on, is a big step up. By the time you can feel the difference in boards, you will be better off on a Rome, Arbor, Gnu, Lib Tech, Santa Cruz, Battaleon, maybe even a K2, Ride or Salomon from the high end.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with the video or the campaign. Sure those girls at DV where dicks. But the rest of it was just funny. And you know what? I've seen asshole moves by skiers and snowboarders all the time. Skiers complain snowboarders sit on their trails, fine at least you can see them when you are coming down. I'm going to complain about skiers skiing through terrain parks in all the blind spots. Maybe they don't know that it is a danger just like the snowboarders don't know sitting in the middle of the trail is a danger, but it slices both ways. 

The video will not change the policies at the mountains, no amount of poaching will. The resorts differentiate themselves by not allowing snowboarders, there are people who will go there solely because of that. There is a reason two of them are in the ultra competitive Utah market. So what happens here? Burton gets free marketing, the resorts get a little exposure and a little money, some hotels might get a little money, a few snowboarders get 5,000, and we get to watch funny videos. What is the harm? Its not like they're giving $5000 to the person who spray paints the burton logo on top of the alta lodge.


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 4, 2007)

I do have to say, I've never bothered to look at the videos...I don't need to.  My objection is to Burton sinking to such low's to try to "increase shareholder value".  Oh, wait, I'm in recovery now, I'm not a marketing sleezebag anymore.  I'll translate to English:  "Increase shareholder value" = Suck money out of any source possible for the shareholders at everyone else's expense.

I can talk and post about how stupid Burton's move is, but really, my opinion doesn't count for jack.  I ski.  I won't have any effect on ol' Jake's bottom line.  I'm just glad to hear that so many boarders are even more offended than I am.


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## dmc (Dec 4, 2007)

catskills said:


> *This makes Jake Burton lower than Whale Pooh*.  Jake was recently elected to the Hall of Fame a few months back.  After showing videos of riders hassling skiers in a beginner area they should kick Jake's  a$$ out.



Jake Burton is a great man who's done some great and kind things for people.. 
He deserves to be on the wall...

this isn't such a big deal...

JMHO


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## JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod (Dec 5, 2007)

dmc said:


> Jake Burton is a great man who's done some great and kind things for people..
> He deserves to be on the wall...
> 
> this isn't such a big deal...
> ...




When did you start snowboarding?   There's a lot of history behind the Burton brand...some good, and some very bad........Many of us started in the early 80's and on grass-roots levels helped resorts realize that snowboarding has a place on their mountains. Many of us were persecuted in the 80's because the perception of snowboarding was so negative and resorts did not want to deal with us or more accurately the stereotype. 

WAKE UP PEOPLE, this is nothing more than a publicity stunt by a company that has lost its core image. This video and this marketing campaign is amatuer and has done nothing for the progression of our sport.


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 5, 2007)

JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod said:


> WAKE UP PEOPLE, this is nothing more than a publicity stunt by a company that has lost its core image. This video and this marketing campaign is amatuer and has done nothing for the progression of our sport.



While the in the big scheme of things, this campaign is lame and small time, but why should Burton try to gain market share by driving the sport backwards?

In the eighties, I'll admit, I thought snowboarders were an annoyance.  _In general_They sat in the middle of the trail, they didn't ride with any rhythm. They didn't follow a line, so they were hard to pass and they fell on the unload ramp a lot.  Many of them were rather obnoxious.  Yes, I'm stereotyping.

In 1990-91, fresh out of college, saving for a house, I had no money to ski.  I skied 4 days that season, all 4 on Mount Washington, all four with two snowboarders.  My first run that season was in February in a storm from Centerheadwall into the chute.  These guys were on big boards with Asolo Ice climbing boots.  They absolutely ripped it up.  It completely changed my opinion of snowboarding.

The sport has come a long way.  Why does someone at Burton think that increasing a rift between skiers and riders that so many have fought hard to close so they can sell a few more boards in the short term is a good idea?


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## catskills (Dec 5, 2007)

dmc said:


> Jake Burton is a great man who's done some great and kind things for people..
> He deserves to be on the wall...
> 
> this isn't such a big deal...
> ...


dmc if you love snowboarding as much as I think you do, then you better be writing Jake Burton to remove the  Deer Valley video of snowboarders hassling skiers off their Corporate money making web site. Your either in favor of this kind of behavior or your not. Which is it?  Make a stand.  This is no joke.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Dec 5, 2007)

catskills said:


> dmc if you love snowboarding as much as I think you do, then you better be writing Jake Burton to remove the Deer Valley video of snowboarders hassling skiers off their Corporate money making web site. Your either in favor of this kind of behavior or your not. Which is it? Make a stand. This is no joke.


 Sorry but I am not going to take a seat at the back of the bus no how good it makes somebody feels... there is no good reason for the exclusion ... period.


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## DJC (Dec 5, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> It won't backfire on Burton. The people who are pissed about it are not the ones they are trying to sell to. That guy who said he had the triumph and the custom x and wouldn't buy any more product, I see where you are coming, but if you are buying a triumph and a custom x you are obviously at the very high end of the skill range and a free rider. Try a GNU Altered Genetics, trust me you will be much happier. Or an Arbor A-Frame or Crossbow. All handmade by real legit companies, don't even bother with Burton ever again. That being said, Burton sells 90% of their boards in the custom or lower range, they want to sell to people who are beginner/intermediate and what the "snowboaridng" image. Burton is the most main stream of the snowboarding companies so they get all those people to jump on their gear so they can be "core", which compared to the Solomon or K2 rental board they learned on, is a big step up. By the time you can feel the difference in boards, you will be better off on a Rome, Arbor, Gnu, Lib Tech, Santa Cruz, Battaleon, maybe even a K2, Ride or Salomon from the high end.
> 
> That being said, I don't really have a problem with the video or the campaign. Sure those girls at DV where dicks. But the rest of it was just funny. And you know what? I've seen asshole moves by skiers and snowboarders all the time. Skiers complain snowboarders sit on their trails, fine at least you can see them when you are coming down. I'm going to complain about skiers skiing through terrain parks in all the blind spots. Maybe they don't know that it is a danger just like the snowboarders don't know sitting in the middle of the trail is a danger, but it slices both ways.
> 
> The video will not change the policies at the mountains, no amount of poaching will. The resorts differentiate themselves by not allowing snowboarders, there are people who will go there solely because of that. There is a reason two of them are in the ultra competitive Utah market. So what happens here? Burton gets free marketing, the resorts get a little exposure and a little money, some hotels might get a little money, a few snowboarders get 5,000, and we get to watch funny videos. What is the harm? Its not like they're giving $5000 to the person who spray paints the burton logo on top of the alta lodge.



Good advice from both you and DMC regarding other manufacturers.  I will def. broaden my horizons on my next purchase.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Dec 5, 2007)

DJC said:


> Good advice from both you and DMC regarding other manufacturers. I will def. broaden my horizons on my next purchase.


 Was Never Summer and Unity snowboards mentioned?


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## catskills (Dec 5, 2007)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Sorry but I am not going to take a seat at the back of the bus no how good it makes somebody feels... there is no good reason for the exclusion ... period.


I think your missing mypoint here. I could care less about the poaching thing.  What concerns me is we are talking about money making corporation that is promoting snowboarders hassling skiers on the slopes in the Deer Valley video.  No matter what side your on, at the end of the day this is not a good thing for the sport of snowboarding.


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## dmc (Dec 5, 2007)

JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod said:


> When did you start snowboarding?   There's a lot of history behind the Burton brand...some good, and some very bad........



Last year.... Still picking it up...  It seems to be a really fun sport...  I may even buy one...


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## dmc (Dec 5, 2007)

catskills said:


> dmc if you love snowboarding as much as I think you do, then you better be writing Jake Burton to remove the  Deer Valley video of snowboarders hassling skiers off their Corporate money making web site. Your either in favor of this kind of behavior or your not. Which is it?  Make a stand.  This is no joke.



I really don't think it's a big deal...  I seriously don't....
And I refuse to make it into a big deal and allow anti-snowboarding camp more fuel for the fire...


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## dmc (Dec 5, 2007)

DJC said:


> Good advice from both you and DMC regarding other manufacturers.  I will def. broaden my horizons on my next purchase.



I've been riding NeverSummers for a while...  thiking about checking deeper into Prior...  I have a splitboard frm them and it's really nice...

Got a Ride from a friend who Reps...  It's a nice deck...

Haven't bought a Burton since I had a freind repping for them...


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## Method9455 (Dec 5, 2007)

Yea I think this is an incredible over reaction by a lot of people here. Get a grip. A snowboarder spraying a snow on some people is immature and out of taste. It is hardly dangerous. Where is your angst for the people (skiers and snowboarders) who ride the terrain park all season and cause injury after injury. People get hurt / die from that kind of stupidity, but all you hear is "it is an open trail I can ski anywhere I want". Thats a hell of a lot worse than this stuff, where is the outrage?


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## RIDEr (Dec 5, 2007)

Letter from Jake Burton:

*STATE  OF THE MOUNTAIN : POACH FOR FREEDOM*
Since  the release of our Poachers web story on burton.com, several people have  contacted Burton complaining of our actions. While I fully respect their  prerogative to voice their opinion, they should in return grant us the same  courtesy. We have been snowboarding at major resorts for well over 20 years now  and in the process, we have demonstrated our sport to be for real, and of no  threat to society. The fact is that two of the four resorts operate on federal  forest land, which makes this issue even more frustrating since the taxes of  many snowboarders help finance these resorts. I'm confident that if these four  resorts outlawed skiing tomorrow, there would be a protest long before 20 years  passed, and rightfully so. I want to add that we have been careful not to break  any laws, nor to encourage anyone to break any laws (see the Poaching 10  Commandments on burton.com/poachers) in our efforts to liberate these  mountains. If you have spent as much time in the mountains as I have, you would  know that every mountain has a personality, and while they can be brutally cruel  at times, discrimination is not in their DNA.
*Jake Burton*
Founder-Burton  Snowboards


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## millerm277 (Dec 5, 2007)

RIDEr said:


> which makes this issue even more frustrating since the taxes of  many snowboarders help finance these resorts.



How would that be? The areas are paying the state for the use of the land, so in reality, the areas would be reducing the taxes of snowboarders.


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## JimG. (Dec 6, 2007)

RIDEr said:


> Letter from Jake Burton:
> 
> *STATE  OF THE MOUNTAIN : POACH FOR FREEDOM*
> Since  the release of our Poachers web story on burton.com, several people have  contacted Burton complaining of our actions. While I fully respect their  prerogative to voice their opinion, they should in return grant us the same  courtesy. We have been snowboarding at major resorts for well over 20 years now  and in the process, we have demonstrated our sport to be for real, and of no  threat to society. The fact is that two of the four resorts operate on federal  forest land, which makes this issue even more frustrating since the taxes of  many snowboarders help finance these resorts. I'm confident that if these four  resorts outlawed skiing tomorrow, there would be a protest long before 20 years  passed, and rightfully so. I want to add that we have been careful not to break  any laws, nor to encourage anyone to break any laws (see the Poaching 10  Commandments on burton.com/poachers) in our efforts to liberate these  mountains. If you have spent as much time in the mountains as I have, you would  know that every mountain has a personality, and while they can be brutally cruel  at times, discrimination is not in their DNA.
> ...



Hmmmm....know what?

This is as silly as the over-reaction to the original post. 

When did sliding around on snow begin needing commandments, protests, and liberation? 

Sounds like ski school.


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## Method9455 (Dec 6, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Hmmmm....know what?
> 
> This is as silly as the over-reaction to the original post.
> 
> ...



Jake Burton, love him or hate him, you have to agree he has absolutely no idea what the constitution says. And he really like hyperbole. I'm a snowboarder, and I'm really not that mad about those 4 mountains saying no to snowboarders. If they opened their doors to us tomorrow, I have 30+ mountains I want to ride before I'd get MRG, Taos, and Deer Valley. Alta maybe but everyone says there is a lot of traversing, not great on a board anyway. What am I going to do bring snow shoes? Fine for real hiking but you would look like an idiot on the lift.


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## AdironRider (Dec 6, 2007)

I fully support this campaign. There I said it. 

You guys are freakng out about this as if theyre promoting killing skiers or soemthing. I think this whole skier snowboarding thing is so stupid its mind boggling. This is just Jakes way of trying to put the nail in the coffin. You can sit here and talk about it, and get nowhere, or you can go out and do something about it.


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## JimG. (Dec 6, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> Jake Burton, love him or hate him, you have to agree he has absolutely no idea what the constitution says. And he really like hyperbole. I'm a snowboarder, and I'm really not that mad about those 4 mountains saying no to snowboarders. If they opened their doors to us tomorrow, I have 30+ mountains I want to ride before I'd get MRG, Taos, and Deer Valley. Alta maybe but everyone says there is a lot of traversing, not great on a board anyway. What am I going to do bring snow shoes? Fine for real hiking but you would look like an idiot on the lift.



A voice of reason.

Why get obsessed with 4 ski hills in the whole country when there are hundreds of others that welcome you?

Their loss, not yours.

That said, the exclusion rules are pretty crappy. And before any skiers chime in name one hill that bans skiing and allows only snowboarding first.


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## riverc0il (Dec 6, 2007)

AdironRider said:


> I fully support this campaign. There I said it.
> 
> You guys are freakng out about this as if theyre promoting killing skiers or soemthing. I think this whole skier snowboarding thing is so stupid its mind boggling. This is just Jakes way of trying to put the nail in the coffin. You can sit here and talk about it, and get nowhere, or you can go out and do something about it.


I think what people are "freaking out about" is that Jake Burton is doing more to open the coffin than put a nail into it......


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## AdironRider (Dec 6, 2007)

Im not going to try and argue my stance, as I know its going to fall on deaf ears. But everyone freaking out about a snowboarder slapping someone on the ass is overkill. THEYRE ENDANGERING SKIERS!!! is a bunch of crap and you know it. They didnt hurt anyone, nor are they promoting the hurting of anyone. 

The whole stance of the campaign is that these resorts are saying F you to snowboarders, so Burton is promoting the notion of saying F you to the resort. You think sending them a kind letter is going to do anything? No. The point of the campaign is to try and innundate these resorts as a way to try and force them to change, similar to a union going on strike, picket lines, etc. force companies to change theyre ways. Snowboarders cant boycott these resorts, so this is a good way of getting theyre message directly to the resorts themselves. People can talk about it online, or in public forum, but it doesnt change anything, By bringing snowboarding to the resorts by poaching, they attack the problem directly, in an arena that promotes the problem. Think the freedom rides through the south... Northerners held debates, what have you, but by protesting directly  in the face of the problem, changes were made. Not a direct correlation I know, but you get the drift.


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## millerm277 (Dec 6, 2007)

JimG. said:


> And before any skiers chime in name one hill that bans skiing and allows only snowboarding first.



There aren't any that I know of. If someone created one, I wouldn't care/mind. Who am I to tell them what to allow on their property?



> This is just Jakes way of trying to put the nail in the coffin. You can sit here and talk about it, and get nowhere, or you can go out and do something about it.



The question is, will this help put the nail in the coffin, or start moving backwards? The reason the bans exist, is at least partially due to the negative perception of snowboarders as being rude, obnoxious..etc. (I am not saying that's true by any means, but that is the stereotype). It seems unlikely that acting like the people in the video will solve that, and even if you are acting nicely, you disregarding the ban will most likely only strengthen it.

Also, if they wanted, they could probably get you arrested, if you and 20 of your friends show up, that might happen.

That is all my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.


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## riverc0il (Dec 6, 2007)

Adiron, do you really think this "campaign" is about really trying to get these places to change? This is not a civil liberties issue in which public support is going to change the issue. What is keeping these ski areas snowboard free is dollars (and in the case of MRG, the owners desires with what to do with their property). As long as there is a demand for areas that do not allow snowboarders, these areas will continue to thrive. This type of campaign only alienates and entrenches people and these areas in their beliefs. It only causes a knee jerk reaction to keep the status quo. If this was really truly an effort to enact change, it could not have been done in a more worse way. This is exactly what I would have recommended if these people wanted to "prove a point" knowing things wouldn't change regardless. This is not a civil rights issue and swaying public opinion is not going to change anything. Ski areas vote with dollar signs and the people reacting worst to these videos only cling more strongly to the non-snowboard policies of these ski areas.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Dec 6, 2007)

I remember "poaching" the halfpipe when only snowboarders were allowed to ride it...so I'll try to avoid sounding like a hypocrite.  Only thing I have to add is as a former retailer who bought quite a lot of merchandise from Burton...they are the 800lb gorilla in the industry...and what does an 800lb gorilla do...whatever the hell it wants.  They are corporate to the core and soooo not "core."  I'd have more respect for the initiative if it came from Rome or Capita, not from the marketing giant.


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## AdironRider (Dec 6, 2007)

riverc0il said:


> Adiron, do you really think this "campaign" is about really trying to get these places to change? This is not a civil liberties issue in which public support is going to change the issue. What is keeping these ski areas snowboard free is dollars (and in the case of MRG, the owners desires with what to do with their property). As long as there is a demand for areas that do not allow snowboarders, these areas will continue to thrive. This type of campaign only alienates and entrenches people and these areas in their beliefs. It only causes a knee jerk reaction to keep the status quo. If this was really truly an effort to enact change, it could not have been done in a more worse way. This is exactly what I would have recommended if these people wanted to "prove a point" knowing things wouldn't change regardless. This is not a civil rights issue and swaying public opinion is not going to change anything. Ski areas vote with dollar signs and the people reacting worst to these videos only cling more strongly to the non-snowboard policies of these ski areas.



Yeah, actually I do believe that to an extent this is a campaign to get these resorts to change. Sure they are a corporation, and as a result the end result is to make money, but you have to remember Burtons roots. Jake still gets out and rides 100+ days a year at Stowe and other resorts. Hes the godfather of the sport regardless of your opinion of him, and I believe he truely believes in what hes doing.  I disagree on you alienation claims, it brings the debate to the resorts themselves. Sure people there are going to be pissed, but at least the situation is being confronted. Boarders can sit around and talk about change, but these resorts and theyre customers are, for the most part, not even going to notice. By poaching, they cant help but notice. Sure most of the resorts in questions skiers are going to disagree with the campaign, but it still brings the situation to the forfront of their day. And if it happens to change a few peoples minds, then its a step in the right direction. Considering for the better part of three decades "talking" about the situation hasnt changed these resorts minds, what other alternative is there other than to just poach?


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## ski220 (Dec 6, 2007)

Perhaps it's the persons on the boards that these ski areas don't want.  There is a lot of truth to stereotyping as much as people want to say otherwise.  Profiling works and thats a fact.  

Snowboards ride over powder and pack it down, unlike skies that cut thru it.  How many times do you see a boarder side slipping a chute pushing all the powder out as he thinks he's a bad ass dude ripping it up?  No grooming allowed.  As Alf Engen said (in his unique accent)  "Snowboarding will never be allowed at Alta. It ruins the snow."


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## ski220 (Dec 6, 2007)

And the clown face posted over Steins face?  ??


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## riverc0il (Dec 6, 2007)

I am not saying "poaching" is bad. As my previous comments suggest, I would be cheering on snowboarders that hiked up for a run at a place like MRG. That type of spirit is cool, I dig that. The spirit of the campaign is what I am taking issue with and suggesting that others would do the same. This is not a board versus ski thing, right? I think we can generally most all of us agree this is a perception thing. So focusing on the perceptions, that campaign only reinforced perceptions. Poaching has nothing to do with the "campaign" but is rather just a component. The spirit of the campaign is what people will remember, and it is not friendly but rather somewhat hostile. It has nothing to do with poaching, which has been happening for some time now regardless.


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## AdironRider (Dec 7, 2007)

ski220 said:


> Perhaps it's the persons on the boards that these ski areas don't want.  There is a lot of truth to stereotyping as much as people want to say otherwise.  Profiling works and thats a fact.
> 
> Snowboards ride over powder and pack it down, unlike skies that cut thru it.  How many times do you see a boarder side slipping a chute pushing all the powder out as he thinks he's a bad ass dude ripping it up?  No grooming allowed.  As Alf Engen said (in his unique accent)  "Snowboarding will never be allowed at Alta. It ruins the snow."



Your statement is the exact reason I support this campaign.


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 7, 2007)

AdironRider said:


> Im not going to try and argue my stance, as I know its going to fall on deaf ears. But everyone freaking out about a snowboarder slapping someone on the ass is overkill. THEYRE ENDANGERING SKIERS!!! is a bunch of crap and you know it. They didnt hurt anyone, nor are they promoting the hurting of anyone.



OK, for the sake of civil debate, I'll grant assume that's correct.



AdironRider said:


> The whole stance of the campaign is that these resorts are saying F you to snowboarders, so Burton is promoting the notion of saying F you to the resort. You think sending them a kind letter is going to do anything? No. The point of the campaign is to try and innundate these resorts as a way to try and force them to change, similar to a union going on strike, picket lines, etc. force companies to change theyre ways. Snowboarders cant boycott these resorts, so this is a good way of getting theyre message directly to the resorts themselves. People can talk about it online, or in public forum, but it doesnt change anything, By bringing snowboarding to the resorts by poaching, they attack the problem directly, in an arena that promotes the problem. Think the freedom rides through the south... Northerners held debates, what have you, but by protesting directly  in the face of the problem, changes were made. Not a direct correlation I know, but you get the drift.



As a union member (with a no strike clause, for what it's worth), I'll leave that comment aside.

My issue is this:  This has nothing to do with "Equal access".  This has to do with Burton's image and market share.  And now that snowboarding has been generally accepted by the skiing public, Burton is willing to sacrifice that acceptance by promoting bad behavior to gain, for the short term, more market share.

I woder what Jake would say if the three resorts ('cause it won't happen at MRG in my lifetime) said, sure, we welcome snowboarders, just not on Burton equipment?


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## campgottagopee (Dec 7, 2007)

riverc0il said:


> I am not saying "poaching" is bad. As my previous comments suggest, I would be cheering on snowboarders that hiked up for a run at a place like MRG. That type of spirit is cool, I dig that. The spirit of the campaign is what I am taking issue with and suggesting that others would do the same. This is not a board versus ski thing, right? I think we can generally most all of us agree this is a perception thing. So focusing on the perceptions, that campaign only reinforced perceptions. Poaching has nothing to do with the "campaign" but is rather just a component. The spirit of the campaign is what people will remember, and it is not friendly but rather somewhat hostile. It has nothing to do with poaching, which has been happening for some time now regardless.



Well said----like my first post regarding this topic---"nothing good will come out of this" and I think re-reading thru all of this is starting to prove that.


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## Method9455 (Dec 7, 2007)

ski220 said:


> Perhaps it's the persons on the boards that these ski areas don't want.  There is a lot of truth to stereotyping as much as people want to say otherwise.  Profiling works and thats a fact.
> 
> Snowboards ride over powder and pack it down, unlike skies that cut thru it.  How many times do you see a boarder side slipping a chute pushing all the powder out as he thinks he's a bad ass dude ripping it up?  No grooming allowed.  As Alf Engen said (in his unique accent)  "Snowboarding will never be allowed at Alta. It ruins the snow."



Thats a little ridiculous. Why is it that all the skis sold in the last few years are super fat skis? Not to cut THROUGH powder thats for sure. When you have two skis that are 70% the width of a snowboard anyway, is there really that much of a difference? 

And really, how many times HAVE you seen a snowboarder side slipping through a shoot and thinking he is a badass? 3? 6? And skiers side slipping? Someone biting off more than they can chew is not a snowboard specific issue. 

Besides most people on boards these days aspire to ride half pipe and do rails and jumps, they have never even heard of a chute. 

The only place skis do something snowboards can't is skinning uphill.

I can do both, I like both, and each have their places. Give me skis on a day when it is icy. Give me a board on a powder day. I'll take a board in the park, and either on steep corduroy. When I'm screwing around with friends I want a board. When I am hiking I want skis. Skis in the bumps, board in the trees. In the end it is just a different way of enjoying it.

Try it sometime, you will be suprised how much you like it. Besides snowboarding is way safer anyway.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 7, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> Try it sometime, you will be suprised how much you like it. Besides snowboarding is way safer anyway.



I'm being serious when I sak you this. How/why is boarding safer that 2 planks??? I've heard that said before but I don't see how it can be. I ski w/ some very good boarders and when they bite it they go down HARD!!! So how is it safer???


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## Method9455 (Dec 7, 2007)

Because your feet are locked in. The strongest polygon is a triangle. Between your hips, your feet, and your board you get a triangle. So long as everything is adjusted right no matter how much you tumble you can't hurt your knees. On skis, the better you are, the higher your DIN. So when you fall/tumble you get these great lever arms ripping your knees to shreds. On a snowboard most injuries are wrist, arm, shoulder. All fairly repairable and not that important for riding. On skiing all the injuries are knee injuries - crucial to skiing.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 7, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> Because your feet are locked in. The strongest polygon is a triangle. Between your hips, your feet, and your board you get a triangle. So long as everything is adjusted right no matter how much you tumble you can't hurt your knees. On skis, the better you are, the higher your DIN. So when you fall/tumble you get these great lever arms ripping your knees to shreds. On a snowboard most injuries are wrist, arm, shoulder. All fairly repairable and not that important for riding. On skiing all the injuries are knee injuries - crucial to skiing.



I'm not sure I buy that one. The guys I've seen go down on a board really knock the crap out of there head. In fact, one dude knocked himself out. I've had 2 injuries while skiing (knock on wood here) and neither of them were to my knees. Blew a disc in my back and broke my thumb, so i guess not all skiing injuries are to the knees afterall.


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## JimG. (Dec 7, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


> I woder what Jake would say if the three resorts ('cause it won't happen at MRG in my lifetime) said, sure, we welcome snowboarders, just not on Burton equipment?



Good one sled.


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## JimG. (Dec 7, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> Thats a little ridiculous. Why is it that all the skis sold in the last few years are super fat skis? Not to cut THROUGH powder thats for sure. When you have two skis that are 70% the width of a snowboard anyway, is there really that much of a difference?
> 
> And really, how many times HAVE you seen a snowboarder side slipping through a shoot and thinking he is a badass? 3? 6? And skiers side slipping? Someone biting off more than they can chew is not a snowboard specific issue.
> 
> ...



Good comments here too.

I think it goes back to what riverc0il wrote...the issue isn't really about snowboarding or skiing, it's about acting like an asshole.

I don't like asshole skiers any better than asshole snowboarders.


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## artooman (Dec 9, 2007)

I know there are a lot of snowboarders who disapprove of this.  I know that not all snowboarders are moronic jerks who want to rebel against whatever.  But if Burton *does* make a lot money off of this, then it will lend a lot of credence to those who don't like snowboarders as a group.  It will validate a lot of generalizations about snowboarding.  This whole thing is really stupid.

With that said, I hope Burton goes out of business so we can all go on our merry way.

I am a skier.  I want to try snowboarding.  This definitely helps make my decision about where I will look for a board (not Burton).


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## awf170 (Dec 9, 2007)

Correct way to poach MRG:

1.  Wait for biggest powder day of the year

2.  Hike to the top of Stark Mt. before the lifts open.  

3.  Wait until the single is fully loaded, but no one has gotten off yet.

4. Get first tracks on Chute to liftline, with about 10 other snowboarders.  You will have a full audience of skiers all wanting first tracks under the lift.  They will be very happy.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Dec 9, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Correct way to poach MRG:
> 
> 1.  Wait for biggest powder day of the year
> 
> ...




Haha I would love to see it and I think the whole campaign is great viral marketing for Burton..:beer:


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## Method9455 (Dec 9, 2007)

campgottagopee said:


> I'm not sure I buy that one. The guys I've seen go down on a board really knock the crap out of there head. In fact, one dude knocked himself out. I've had 2 injuries while skiing (knock on wood here) and neither of them were to my knees. Blew a disc in my back and broke my thumb, so i guess not all skiing injuries are to the knees afterall.



I didn't mean ALL I'm just saying it seems to me like skiing injuries are a lot more catastrophic. Blowing knees, backs, etc. You definitely tumble on a snowboard but are they wearing helmets? Its kind of tuck and roll. You crash off a 40 foot jump at what 40 miles an hour? And I just tumble and roll down the landing and eventually you stop. You can get hurt either way and I think the head injuries are much more influenced by what you hit than how you started off. A rock or tree is going to be an issue no matter how you ended up flying into it. 

My opinion might be skewed by the time I spend in the park, those guys crank their din settings down so that the skis don't pop off for almost everything so they get messed up a lot more than snowboarders do. We just kind of tumble down landings and they're getting trashed around by the skis.


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## David Metsky (Dec 10, 2007)

awf170 said:


> 4. Get first tracks on Chute to liftline, with about 10 other snowboarders.  You will have a full audience of skiers all wanting first tracks under the lift.  They will be very happy.


Except there will be 2 dozen skiers (mostly telemarkers) who skinned up at dawn or who spent the night up top who are poaching ahead of you.  Sorry, that's not going to get anyone's attention.  First tracks on a powder day at MRG happen at dawn.

Actually, most folks will ski or ride some more interesting terrain then Chute, so maybe you'll have Chute on your own.  Knock yourself out.


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

David Metsky said:


> Actually, most folks will ski or ride some more interesting terrain then Chute, so maybe you'll have Chute on your own.  Knock yourself out.



Not the first place I'd head for...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> Not the first place I'd head for...



Perhaps because you want to enjoy the goods.  If this is for the "Bounty", than I think AWF's plan would be the winner.  It would make a statement without being overly obnoxious and would be easy to document on video.  (Defineltely a better plan than the paochers early season at Taos who got buried in an avalanche on Kachina Peak.  No disrepect meant for the departed, BTW).

I sill think Burton should step up to the plate and say:







To whomever dreamed up this moronic idea.


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


> Perhaps because you want to enjoy the goods.



yup...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> yup...



See?  We agree on something.  (At least I didn't say that picture above was Jake.  But that's OK, I've got nomex)


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

i just want to ride and be left alone...


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## sledhaulingmedic (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> i just want to ride and be left alone...



Oh come on!  I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about the resonent and harmonic properties of snowsports equipment!:beer:


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

sledhaulingmedic said:


> Oh come on!  I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about the resonent and harmonic properties of snowsports equipment!:beer:



cool!


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> i just want to ride and be left alone...



then you CANT do it at MRG...TAOS.....DEER VALLEY....OR.......ALTA...

enjoy...

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> then you CANT do it at MRG...TAOS.....DEER VALLEY....OR.......ALTA...
> 
> enjoy...
> 
> M




Please... Someone hold me back....

OK...  I'm OK...  No worries...


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> Please... Someone hold me back....
> 
> OK...  I'm OK...  No worries...




Hold you back why????

I mean really..hasnt this been gone over and over EVERY damned year????? It isnt going to change bitching about it...and it certainly isnt going to change because Burton asks for it...its just how it is....

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Hold you back why????
> 
> I mean really..hasnt this been gone over and over EVERY damned year????? It isnt going to change bitching about it...and it certainly isnt going to change because Burton asks for it...its just how it is....
> 
> M



Must contain myself for the good of the board so I'm not falling for your poking today my old nemisis...  

I have to meet a bunch of these guys and gals Friday...  Don't want them thiking I'm a total ass... 

Enjoy!


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> Must contain myself for the good of the board so I'm not falling for your poking today my old nemisis...
> 
> I have to meet a bunch of these guys and gals Friday...  Don't want them thiking I'm a total ass...
> 
> Enjoy!



Relax dude....im just trying to figure out why its the same thing EVERY year with this SAME debate...

Not trying to "lure" you into anything........im WAY WAY past that if you hadnt noticed...I just want to know why it cant just be let go...??? The mrg/alta/taos/deer valet thing that is....

you gotta grow up and let sleeping dogs lie...whats it been like YEARS??? LET IT GO...

M


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## Method9455 (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Relax dude....im just trying to figure out why its the same thing EVERY year with this SAME debate...
> 
> Not trying to "lure" you into anything........im WAY WAY past that if you hadnt noticed...I just want to know why it cant just be let go...??? The mrg/alta/taos/deer valet thing that is....
> 
> ...



"Relax" "Enjoy", if you drop the sarcastic comments because you think they are funny, don't then try and claim you aren't trying to lure him into a fight. Someone in this thread needs to grow up but it is certainly not DMC.


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> "Relax" "Enjoy", if you drop the sarcastic comments because you think they are funny, don't then try and claim you aren't trying to lure him into a fight. Someone in this thread needs to grow up but it is certainly not DMC.



Yeah......it could be whomever started this thread...

Its a childish argument thats gone on ENDLESSLY for years......whats the point...you arent going to change the minds of the owners of those resorts...simple as that...let sleeping dogs lie....

There was NO sarcasm at all intended or otherwise in ANY of my posts in this thread.....

M

On a side note...DMC has pissed off more than one individual on more than one board so......ill leave it at that....


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

Method9455 said:


> "Relax" "Enjoy", if you drop the sarcastic comments because you think they are funny, don't then try and claim you aren't trying to lure him into a fight. Someone in this thread needs to grow up but it is certainly not DMC.




Not to mention METHOD..you should STFU because there is a little history between DMC and myself...so....

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

You moderators may want to lock this thread...


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> You moderators may want to lock this thread...




Naaa im done...its PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that you will NEVER grow up...enjoy Hunter.....

Is Method another one of your cronies??? 20 posts and hes tellin ME how to handle myself...

PALEASE......

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Naaa im done...its PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that you will NEVER grow up...enjoy Hunter.....
> 
> Is Method another one of your cronies??? 20 posts and hes tellin ME how to handle myself...
> 
> ...



Well thank you!!! I will enjoy not growing up and living in Hunter..  In fact - there's a lot of people that love Hunter here..  I'm feel like I'm in a good crowd here...

And sadly no - until just now - Method wasn't one of my cronies...  But I consider him one now..  method...  If your old enough... I owe you a frosty beer...
Well said for 20 posts...! Good on ya!

Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess...


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> On a side note...DMC has pissed off more than one individual on more than one board so......ill leave it at that....




Yup...  And each and every one of them had it comin... And it doesn't keep me awake at nights...


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Not to mention METHOD..you should STFU because there is a little history between DMC and myself...so....
> 
> M




I assume STFU means shut the F up.... Nice... At first I was thinking it was an abrieviated Dead song title...


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> Yup...  And each and every one of them had it comin... And it doesn't keep me awake at nights...



Who are you to say who had what coming???? Wow...you really havent changed a bit...I thought mountain life mightve mellowed you....guess not....

Oh well...ive tried numerous times to put this in the past.......ive done no baiting.....just try to get "polite" responses and its that same ole same ole...

Im glad you found that Hunter suits you....it CERTAINLY suits your personality.....

Sorry for taking this thread off on a tangent...MY BAD REALLY......

Back on track.....we should all know by now that no amount of complaining about those resorts that dont allow boarders is going to change anything....whats the point in YET ANOTHER 15pg thread on it??? Besides this is all VIRAL MARKETING....i guess it did what it was intended to do...I dont care personally if you ski or board.....some resorts however do...and that is why we live in this great country called AMERICA....CHOICE.

M


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> I assume STFU means shut the F up.... Nice... At first I was thinking it was an abrieviated Dead song title...




Yup....a person with limited post count that has NO IDEA of backround shouldnt be telling me what to do...

DMC you'd have done the same thing......he had no place commenting on what I was saying to you...thats all....I also dont think you need anyone fighting your battles... ;-)

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Who are you to say who had what coming???? Wow...you really havent changed a bit...I thought mountain life mightve mellowed you....guess not....



I'm me... I make my choices...  i say who I don't like...  And who I like...
I forget who said this...  But i seem to remember someone saying this recently here...


> that is why we live in this great country called AMERICA....CHOICE.



Now - who said that...  Riiiiiiiight you...  nice quote!  Totally agree... Well said!


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Yup....a person with limited post count that has NO IDEA of backround shouldnt be telling me what to do...
> 
> DMC you'd have done the same thing......he had no place commenting on what I was saying to you...thats all....I also dont think you need anyone fighting your battles... ;-)
> 
> M



It's his choice...

Remember:


> that is why we live in this great country called AMERICA....CHOICE.


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> I'm me... I make my choices...  i say who I don't like...  And who I like...
> I forget who said this...  But i seem to remember someone saying this recently here...
> 
> 
> Now - who said that...  Riiiiiiiight you...  nice quote!  Totally agree... Well said!



Wait a darned minute here...we actually agreed on something????? im marking my calendar....

At one point we did get along....maybe one day we can get past it.....

no harm meant in this particular thread towards you though....on the real......

M


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Wait a darned minute here...we actually agreed on something????? im marking my calendar....
> 
> At one point we did get along....maybe one day we can get past it.....
> 
> ...



Hardly...
I pretty much hate your guts...  sorry...   It's my choice...

No offense..  Not everyone has to like everybody...  the choice thing again...

And NO - we never got along.  Don't flatter yourself...


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## SkiDog (Dec 10, 2007)

dmc said:


> Hardly...
> I pretty much hate your guts...  sorry...   It's my choice...
> 
> No offense..  Not everyone has to like everybody...  the choice thing again...
> ...



OK at least amicable.....

but ok...you are right...we dont have to like each other...but I also dont think everything has to be taken as an attack on a personal level....I certainly dont take it all that way...

Hate is a VERY strong word...especially for someone youve never really met....

the people that you meet this friday might want to take that as one of your character traits..

M


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## millerm277 (Dec 10, 2007)

Just got a pair of Burton gloves today as a gift...returned them for a set of Marmots. I completely disagree with the campaign, so I'm not planning on buying anything from them again. 

As for the reason this topic comes up every year is because it's controversial, and has a lot of people who are passionately for or against it.


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## dmc (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Hate is a VERY strong word...especially for someone youve never really met....
> 
> the people that you meet this friday might want to take that as one of your character traits..
> 
> M



I'll take that under consideration.  But I still pretty much hate your guts...  sorry... you just annoy the crap out of me..


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## Method9455 (Dec 10, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Naaa im done...its PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that you will NEVER grow up...enjoy Hunter.....
> 
> Is Method another one of your cronies??? 20 posts and hes tellin ME how to handle myself...
> 
> ...



I'm nobody's crony on here. The only person I know is GrilledSteeze because we both talk on PASkiAndRide a lot. And post count != intelligence.

I now realize its just the way you write posts with the random capitalization that made me think you where being sarcastic. Its the emPHASIS on the wrong sylLABLE that was throwing me. 

As for it being a dead horse, all the more reason to mess with them. As you said, those owners will never change their mind. This contest benefits them as much as it benefits Burton. Polarizing the market a bit helps to differentiate between the resorts. A resort like Alta is half about the terrain and half about the atmosphere of the resort. There is a big difference between Alta and Mammoth and its not just terrain and snow. Thats part of what makes it fun. If every place was exactly the same, then we'd all just head to the one with the steepest trails and the most powder and all the others would languish and die. If MRG was open to snowboarders and run like Stratton with a little cookie cutter village and speed quads and only the amount of terrain it has now, would people like it? It would be like Magic mountain, some die hards but not the reverence it has. Its about the attitude. So the snowboarders play right back into it. 

And really does it make any sense? If DMC or I show up with the same gear a serious skier has, but a snowboard, ready to blast down some chutes, we are not let in. But the kid with a basketball jersey, 4" headphones blaring rap, saggy pants, and a neon hat gets in on twin tips to screw it all up. It doesn't make any sense at all.


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## bvibert (Dec 10, 2007)

This thread has more than run it's course...


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