# Saddleback



## soposkier (Jul 20, 2015)

Not looking good at saddleback.  Hopefully they can pull it off. http://www.wcsh6.com/story/news/loc...-without-funding-for-new-chairlifts/30408427/


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## Jully (Jul 20, 2015)

Pretty crazy stuff. They have been successful in increasing skier visits to the mountain it would seem, so hopefully they can get the funding. 

I'd be worried about trying to install a new lift starting in August for a december start as well.


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## Puck it (Jul 20, 2015)

The double load station is up for sale alone.


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## xwhaler (Jul 20, 2015)

They have the load station as well as the entire lift up for sale on 2 different listings. Sounds like the owners didn't want to put more $ into an aging lift and are now saying they won;t open unless they can raise enough $ to buy a new lift.
Have to believe something will get done---they have invested too much into the place over the last 10-15 yrs to just close it now.

http://www.resortboneyard.com/i/doppelmayrctec-sprint/53876

http://www.resortboneyard.com/i/2004-doppelmayr-ctec--sprint/52778


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## Jully (Jul 20, 2015)

I read that the entire lift recently went on sale for $350,000 in July. 

http://www.resortboneyard.com/i/doppelmayrctec-sprint/53876

I believe this includes the towers, chairs, and haul rope.

"19 towers, Mueller lattice style towers with Mueller 60mm sheaves."

This is different than the $200,000 advertisement for the drive terminal.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2015)

If they say the lift is at the end of it's useful life, which they did, how do they expect to sell it? Perhaps they should have replaced the lift before spending for a new base lodge & two other new lifts that weren't absolutely necessary. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd really hate to see the place close. Having skied there several times myself it really is a great mountain. It's just to far away from anything.


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## Newpylong (Jul 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> If they say the lift is at the end of it's useful life, which they did, how do they expect to sell it? Perhaps they should have replaced the lift before spending for a new base lodge & two other new lifts that weren't absolutely necessary. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd really hate to see the place close. Having skied there several times myself it really is a great mountain. It's just to far away from anything.



There gets to be a point where one place decides something is not worth investing in anymore. It is at it's useful life for them. For someone else, that drive and return bull wheel would be perfect, the rest for spare parts. The haul rope if still good is worth something, so are the sheaves.

Close?


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 20, 2015)

This smells of a leverage move.Why would one say their lift is at the end of its usefull life and then put it up for sale.Do I want to buy that?So we will have to close?If its good enough for resale your telling me it wont be good enough to run this winter so we'll have to close?I'm not buying this.Has the lift been condemned?Then maybe but this is whacked.


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## catsup948 (Jul 20, 2015)

What would they do if they don't get a lift in time?  Make people ride the little double to the tbar?  That would not be ideal for some.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> What would they do if they don't get a lift in time?


According to them close.


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## Watatic Skier (Jul 20, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> What would they do if they don't get a lift in time?  Make people ride the little double to the tbar?  That would not be ideal for some.





SIKSKIER said:


> This smells of a leverage move.Why would one say their lift is at the end of its usefull life and then put it up for sale.Do I want to buy that?So we will have to close?If its good enough for resale your telling me it wont be good enough to run this winter so we'll have to close?I'm not buying this.Has the lift been condemned?Then maybe but this is whacked.



This is kind of what I assumed too but one of the park guys there who is on Newschoolers brought up that without the Rangely lift there is a good chance they wouldn't see enough of a return to cover operating costs.

I think they should have replaced the double instead of Kennebago but as someone else mentioned hindsight is 20/20


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## Jully (Jul 20, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> This smells of a leverage move.Why would one say their lift is at the end of its usefull life and then put it up for sale.Do I want to buy that?So we will have to close?If its good enough for resale your telling me it wont be good enough to run this winter so we'll have to close?I'm not buying this.Has the lift been condemned?Then maybe but this is whacked.



As has already been mentioned it's at the end of its useful life for the mountain. The capacity of that lift just can't support the amount of skiers who need to ride it in order for the mountain to make it financially anymore with the debt probably accumulated from the other improvements.

Definitely agree it was weird to have done the base lodge and other quads first. The Kennabago quad was to eliminate a T-bar and give access of some of the best terrain to boarders, but still, tons of terrain of the Double was pretty untouched always because of the lift's line and ride time.

From how I've read it, the Berry Family isn't looking to raise $3,000,000 from locals and skiers, they're looking probably too provide some leverage against whoever they've applied for a loan from. 

The mountain was going nowhere with that lift, regardless of how good a condition it was in. They probably have some debt payments coming up in a few years and can't pay it off with the current revenue they're pulling in because of that lift. 

I think it's good that they're going to refund pass holders and venders for the money they've already spent on the upcoming season


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## marcski (Jul 20, 2015)

This announcement could also be somewhat of a ploy to get the govt' to put some pressure to get a loan secured before the end of the summer to ensure that Saddleback opens for the season to provide the seasonal jobs for the area.


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## Highway Star (Jul 20, 2015)

Idiots.


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## xwhaler (Jul 20, 2015)

Here is the press release from Saddleback....it does seem like a leverage play against the banks but also a call to the public to have them help suggest means of financing.
It would be a real shame if the mountain closed for even 1 season. When snow is good (and due to location it usually is) it's a very special place for all ability levels.

http://www.saddlebackmaine.com/docs/Press-Release-7-20-15.pdf


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## mbedle (Jul 20, 2015)

The only way this makes any sense to me is they must have been running in the red during the last couple of seasons. Just figures out it was for sale. Not a good time for them to be closing for the winter when its on the market.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2015)

Looks like I'm late to the party on this one....just saw this on SKI Magazine:  

http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/saddleback-needs-3m-or-resort-wont-open?dom=fb&pub=ski

Looks like they are looking for an excuse to dump the place.  Seems odd to say "the lift works, but we need a new one, so if we don't get the money now, we won't open."  Huh?!


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 20, 2015)

So this place can't make it and can't find funding.  But plans for a massive resort at the Balsams can find tons of $$$.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 20, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> So this place can't make it and can't find funding.  But plans for a massive resort at the Balsams can find tons of $$$.



That's my take on it too. Saddleback is a far superior mountain than the Balsams, same snow and a more compelling 4 season destination with the lake at the base.  

Balsams is arguably a better location with its proximity to Canadian cities and more interstate/easier travel from US cities, but still a long ways away.  

I'm wondering if Saddleback is looking for State Government backed funds to support the loan for the new chair and preserve jobs.  Don't see LePage going for it.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That's my take on it too. Saddleback is a far superior mountain than the Balsams, same snow and a more compelling 4 season destination with the lake at the base.
> 
> Balsams is arguably a better location with its proximity to Canadian cities and more interstate/easier travel from US cities, but still a long ways away.
> 
> I'm wondering if Saddleback is looking for State Government backed funds to support the loan for the new chair and preserve jobs.  Don't see LePage going for it.



It's obvious that there is some kind of posturing going on here.  I imagine that the bank(s)/investors who financed much of the earlier work have balked at giving them $3 million more.  So the resort is now saying, "give us the money or lose everything", in order to force the situation.  It's not really fair to the loyal skiers and riders.


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## freeski (Jul 20, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> So this place can't make it and can't find funding.  But plans for a massive resort at the Balsams can find tons of $$$.


Plans for Balsams could be what is making banks nervous about loaning SB cash. If the Balsams succeeds there might not be enough skiers to keep SB, SR and SL going. I hope they can keep it going at SB. Hate to see any ski area close. 
Feel for any who have invested in a condo up there.


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## freeski (Jul 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> It's obvious that there is some kind of posturing going on here.  I imagine that the bank(s)/investors who financed much of the earlier work have balked at giving them $3 million more.  So the resort is now saying, "give us the money or lose everything", in order to force the situation.  It's not really fair to the loyal skiers and riders.


Yes, announcing this now is odd. They are trying to make something happen. Good theory...


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## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2015)

freeski said:


> Feel for any who have invested in a condo up there.


Guess you've never seen the multi-million dollar homes around Rangely Lake. Don't think they invested in the skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Guess you've never seen the multi-million dollar homes around Rangely Lake. Don't think they invested in the skiing.



More like fishing and snowmobiling.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ss20 (Jul 20, 2015)

I always like it when resorts expand rather than replace (hate it when ski resorts brag about "summer maintenance" and new carpets or whatever)... but a life from 1963 should've been on the chopping block 15 years ago.


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## freeski (Jul 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Guess you've never seen the multi-million dollar homes around Rangely Lake. Don't think they invested in the skiing.


There are condos on the mountain. Check out the SB website. They followed the money making ski model. Build a nice ski area and sell condos around it. You think the people who bought the condos/townhouses at the ski area believe they're sitting pretty?
Want to buy a condo at Ascutney. I bet there are some available.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2015)

freeski said:


> There are condos on the mountain. Check out the SB website. They followed the money making ski model. Build a nice ski area and sell condos around it. You think the people who bought the condos/townhouses at the ski area believe they're sitting pretty?
> Want to buy a condo at Ascutney. I bet there are some available.


The lake is 10 minutes down the road. Ascutney on the other hand has cow pastures.


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## Jully (Jul 21, 2015)

Definitely won't be the worst thing that could happen to the condo owners, but if you buy a condo at the base of a ski mountain and said mountain closes it instantly will destroy the condo's value and cut back on what you can do there from December to April. Plus the Rangely town isn't exactly a booming place in the winter months, its all up at the mountain. Saddleback has a giant access road too, not exactly prime lakefront property. 

Still an awesome area though.


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## fiddleski (Jul 21, 2015)

Part-time Rangeley resident and Saddleback enthusiast here, but I've been nervous about them for years. The build-out never got very far, then they tried to go EB-5 which seems to have been a dead-end, then they put it up for sale in 2012 (still is), and now this, which seems like the most desperate step of all to find some capital. It will break my heart if they close - such a great mountain with so much potential.


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## bigbog (Jul 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> If they say the lift is at the end of it's useful life, which they did, how do they expect to sell it? Perhaps they should have replaced the lift before spending for a new base lodge & two other new lifts that weren't absolutely necessary. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd really hate to see the place close. Having skied there several times myself it really is a great mountain. It's just to far away from anything.



+1


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## bigbog (Jul 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Guess you've never seen the multi-million dollar homes around Rangely Lake. Don't think they invested in the skiing.



+1
...Too many luxury autos and multi-million dollar homes BEYOND the lake(as well) with higher-priced restaurants that never fill up... and then they whine for mo-money and if they don't get it = higher prices.


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## skiNEwhere (Jul 21, 2015)

Woa. I'd hate to see this happen seeing as they are starting to get regional recognition and even were mentioned in ski magazines top 20 last year


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## Newpylong (Jul 21, 2015)

An example of poor capital planning at its best.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 21, 2015)

Maybe Boyne can buy it and put in a Sugarloaf interconnect?


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## dlague (Jul 21, 2015)

Maybe they are going for public appeal and looking for a State bail-out?


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## ss20 (Jul 21, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> Maybe Boyne can buy it and put in a Sugarloaf interconnect?



If CNL doesn't get what they want they might close Sugarloaf and their mountains lol.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2015)

Jully said:


> Rangely town isn't exactly a booming place in the winter months, its all up at the mountain.


Quite the opposite. Try getting a room/condo in Rangely on a weekend when there's plenty of snow on the ground. Skiing is not the thing in Rangely. Snowmobiling is by far more popular & the town is filled with people pursuing that sport, not skiing. It's one of the more popular areas in New England to go snowmobiling. Saddleback is dead compared to the town.


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## dlague (Jul 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Quite the opposite. Try getting a room/condo in Rangely on a weekend when there's plenty of snow on the ground. Skiing is not the thing in Rangely. Snowmobiling is by far more popular & the town is filled with people pursuing that sport, not skiing. It's one of the more popular areas in New England to go snowmobiling. Saddleback is dead compared to the town.



Spot on!  The Pittsburg, NH to Rangley, ME trail is very popular!


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## Smellytele (Jul 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Quite the opposite. Try getting a room/condo in Rangely on a weekend when there's plenty of snow on the ground. Skiing is not the thing in Rangely. Snowmobiling is by far more popular & the town is filled with people pursuing that sport, not skiing. It's one of the more popular areas in New England to go snowmobiling. Saddleback is dead compared to the town.



+1


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## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2015)

dlague said:


> Spot on!  The Pittsburg, NH to Rangley, ME trail is very popular!


One night we were eating dinner in the Rangely Inn & the local snowmobile club was having a meeting in the dining room. They were planning a trip up into Canada & across the Great Lakes to somewhere in the midwest. They had trail maps & were planning places they could stay & also fill up with gas. It was quite interesting.
 I've been up to that area of ME. at least 8 times & only twice stayed at Sugarloaf. All the other times we stayed in Rangely.


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## bigbog (Jul 21, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> They have the load station as well as the entire lift up for sale on 2 different listings. Sounds like the owners didn't want to put more $ into an aging lift and are now saying they won;t open unless they can raise enough $ to buy a new lift.
> Have to believe something will get done---they have invested too much into the place over the last 10-15 yrs to just close it now.......



Will be interesting, regardless if there is an old-Killington/Stowe/Sugarbush style ski resort at the mountain or not...there is always good skiing as long as there is good snow....and maps;-)  Lifts are an option...whose function hasn't really been exploited to the max, imho, by Big-resort wannabee owners...


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## salsgang (Jul 21, 2015)

feels like a big game of chicken. Who is going to blink first.


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## machski (Jul 21, 2015)

SB has been strange the last few years.  I have a feeling the lodge and two new quads were put in first to try and grow skier visits as the Rangley double was a serviceable chair already at the time.  However, this was a calculated move if so and looks to not have succeeded.  As for the resort being for sale, that is true of the ski area alone.  The Berry's are not selling the adjacent real estate property which if you know anything of current resort economics, would make anyone of interest stay away without the real estate tracts attached.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 21, 2015)

can I ask a stupid question, its the end of July, is it physically possible to install a new lift before winter????  especially if said lift hasnt been purchased to date?????


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> can I ask a stupid question, its the end of July, is it physically possible to install a new lift before winter????  especially if said lift hasnt been purchased to date?????



+ 1.  Another reason why this ploy does not make sense....


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## Tin (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm curious if there will be any backlash from this. I can see individuals who know about this little scheme maybe not visiting even if they know about it. For one, it is just a bs stunt. Second, it could make potential visitors who have never been avoid the area due to the comments and possible concerns about the lift itself (seeing as though there is no way to get a new lift in there for ski season and it's a LOOOOONG drive to ride that thing).



They should have waited until Jan/Feb to pull this stunt. It could really come back to bite them this season.


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## ss20 (Jul 21, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> can I ask a stupid question, its the end of July, is it physically possible to install a new lift before winter????  especially if said lift hasnt been purchased to date?????



Yes and no.  They would have to sell the old lift, get that removed, secure funds for a new lift ($300,000 is pocket change for a new lift), and do this all before mid Agust for them to have a *chance* at having a new fixed-grip lift for a Christmas opening.  If they're going for a high-speed quad or six pack that ship sailed away looooong ago.


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## xwhaler (Jul 21, 2015)

Saddleback has always said the goal is a fixed grip quad. They have no intention in a HSQ. I will be up there on the lake over Labor Day wknd so will try and ask around to see what is going on.

To early to speculate but if they really don't want to put more $ into maintaining the Rangeley I wonder if a reduced operating schedule could work while they find the funds for lift replacement?
I was a passholder for 2 seasons and have skied there about 75 days lifetime. I can tell you the mtn is still very much worth going to without the double and I think on a reduced operation running the T and Kennebago they could offer full mtn access without as much of the costs. We shall see


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## dlague (Jul 21, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Saddleback has always said the goal is a fixed grip quad. They have no intention in a HSQ. I will be up there on the lake over Labor Day wknd so will try and ask around to see what is going on.
> 
> To early to speculate but if they really don't want to put more $ into maintaining the Rangeley I wonder if a reduced operating schedule could work while they find the funds for lift replacement?
> I was a passholder for 2 seasons and have skied there about 75 days lifetime. I can tell you the mtn is still very much worth going to without the double and I think on a reduced operation running the T and Kennebago they could offer full mtn access without as much of the costs. We shall see



I was looking at their trail map and noticed as wrll that the T bar offers access across to Kennebago.


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## xwhaler (Jul 21, 2015)

Yes, riding the T and doing some laps on the fun terrain over there before heading up top was SOP for many of my 'back days.  Lot of good terrain off the T and a good portion of the best mid mtn stuff can be accessed from the Kennebago anyways.  Only reason usually to go down was to get lunch or head in for apres


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## machski (Jul 21, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> can I ask a stupid question, its the end of July, is it physically possible to install a new lift before winter????  especially if said lift hasnt been purchased to date?????



Snow King installed a new Quad in about 6 weeks this spring and it is already up and running for their alpine slide.  It was built by Doppelmayr and was their fastest install to date.  I have to assume the site survey and plans have already been done by Dopp and they simply need to sign for it.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 21, 2015)

machski said:


> Snow King installed a new Quad in about 6 weeks this spring and it is already up and running for their alpine slide.  It was built by Doppelmayr and was their fastest install to date.  I have to assume the site survey and plans have already been done by Dopp and they simply need to sign for it.



Ok, but that's 6 weeks from putting a shovel in the ground.  I would think there's quite a bit of work to do before that point.  I doubt you could just make a few phone calls and viola, there are crews dropping lift towers from helicopters and what not.  
Seems to me if they aren't ready to start work now, the ship has sailed for this winter at least.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Ok, but that's 6 weeks from putting a shovel in the ground.  I would think there's quite a bit of work to do before that point.  I doubt you could just make a few phone calls and viola, there are crews dropping lift towers from helicopters and what not.
> Seems to me if they aren't ready to start work now, the ship has sailed for this winter at least.



Not to mention the Snow King is a mere 4.5 hours from Doppelmayr's office/headquarters here in SLC.


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## bigbob (Jul 21, 2015)

Sainte Jerome, PC is not very far from Saddleback either!


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## ss20 (Jul 21, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Ok, but that's 6 weeks from putting a shovel in the ground.  I would think there's quite a bit of work to do before that point.  I doubt you could just make a few phone calls and viola, there are crews dropping lift towers from helicopters and what not.
> Seems to me if they aren't ready to start work now, the ship has sailed for this winter at least.



Exactly.  Snow King was definitely planned well in advance.  To call up a lift manufacturer now and say "yeah we haven't even removed the old lift yet, can you start flying in towers in 3 weeks?" would be ludicrous.


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## machski (Jul 21, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Exactly.  Snow King was definitely planned well in advance.  To call up a lift manufacturer now and say "yeah we haven't even removed the old lift yet, can you start flying in towers in 3 weeks?" would be ludicrous.



My guess is the new lift is all spec'd out and the manufacturer is just waiting for the word go.  Okemo did the Sunburst 6 after July and opened for December and that was a heated bubble detach.  I don't doubt they could get a fixed grip installed if the spec and engineering is done.  SL took out the base terminal of KP in a week with just their lift ops crews.  It can be done.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

bigbob said:


> Sainte Jerome, PC is not very far from Saddleback either!



I wondered if Dopp had an east coast office....

And I'd hope the new lift would be a high(er) speed lift for that price.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I wondered if Dopp had an east coast office....
> 
> And I'd hope the new lift would be a high(er) speed lift for that price.


Isn't the price tag for the Valley House chair at Sugarbush about the same? Supposedly it will be a fixed grip carpet loaded lift identical to the Meadows quad at Stowe which is a Dopp. To tell you the truth after riding the Meadows quad several times I didn't notice much difference in speed over a conventionally loaded lift & it's a bigger pain to load. These guys don't exactly look comfortable loading the Meadows quad.

That's part of the Stowe Mountain Clubs new building in the background. It's quite a bit further along now seeing it myself 2 weeks ago. Comes with underground parking.


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## drjeff (Jul 22, 2015)

The one thing, even with the time frame before winter now, Saddleback may have working for them, is the low number of installations on the East Coast this year - the crews of the companies aren't going to be stretched as thin as they might be if say it was a BIG year for Eastern installations


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## HowieT2 (Jul 22, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Isn't the price tag for the Valley House chair at Sugarbush about the same? Supposedly it will be a fixed grip carpet loaded lift identical to the Meadows quad at Stowe which is a Dopp. To tell you the truth after riding the Meadows quad several times I didn't notice much difference in speed over a conventionally loaded lift & it's a bigger pain to load. These guys don't exactly look comfortable loading the Meadows quad.
> 
> That's part of the Stowe Mountain Clubs new building in the background. It's quite a bit further along now seeing it myself 2 weeks ago. Comes with underground parking.



My understanding is that the carpet loading allows the lift to run about 100 feet/minute faster than a conventionally loaded fixed grip.

The new quad at sugarbush reportedly is costing about 3M but part of that is the removal of two structures and site work for widening the traverse up top.


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## catsup948 (Jul 22, 2015)

Watatic Skier said:


> This is kind of what I assumed too but one of the park guys there who is on Newschoolers brought up that without the Rangely lift there is a good chance they wouldn't see enough of a return to cover operating costs.
> 
> I think they should have replaced the double instead of Kennebago but as someone else mentioned hindsight is 20/20



This is interesting.  I would think closing for a year losing skiers to Sugarloaf would be worse for them.  Offer reduced operating schedule running the tbar.  I'm only annoyed because I was planning on a long weekend there this year!


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## Puck it (Jul 22, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> The new quad at sugarbush reportedly is costing about 3M but part of that is the removal of two structures and site work for widening the traverse up top.


The double at Mittersill cost 3M.  Where is threecy


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## Newpylong (Jul 23, 2015)

Wouldn't surprise me to see Skytrac get the project. They can outprice Dopp or Poma and want their fixed grip business.


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## Tin (Jul 23, 2015)

The Skytrac chair at Berkie could use some extra padding. If it is snowing/your jacket is wet you can get frozen to the back metal piece when going to get off the chair as well.


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## drjeff (Jul 23, 2015)

The Skytrac's at The Hermitage are super comfy, granted they had plush, custom embroidered with the club's logo, chair pads made, but they're comfy and smooth riding lifts for sure!


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## mbedle (Jul 23, 2015)

Apparently, saddleback pulled the sale advertisement for the double lift off the website. Something must of happened and I assume they are keeping the double and going to run for another year or the place down for the year.


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## Jully (Jul 23, 2015)

Would it not be taken down if it had been sold?


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## mbedle (Jul 23, 2015)

Typically they keep it up there with a sold sign on it for a little bit. Who knows, maybe it did sell that fast and Saddleback asked them not to do that.


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## catsup948 (Jul 23, 2015)

Tin said:


> The Skytrac chair at Berkie could use some extra padding. If it is snowing/your jacket is wet you can get frozen to the back metal piece when going to get off the chair as well.



Eh. I don't mind it so much.  The old number 1 black chair, now that was an uncomfortable(dangerous as well) chair lift.


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## Tin (Jul 24, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> Eh. I don't mind it so much.  The old number 1 black chair, now that was an uncomfortable(dangerous as well) chair lift.



The Black Diamond Express was the greatest lift in New England History. As a kid if you could ride that thing you were a great skier lol. I think it was in the 640 FPM speed range or something stupid like that.


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## WWF-VT (Jul 24, 2015)

Portland Press Herald has a good article:  http://www.pressherald.com/2015/07/...nt-reopen-unless-it-gets-3-million-financing/

“The perception is that during busy times, we have long lift lines,” said Berry. “It does impact your vacation and your weekend traffic.”

Painfully slow double chairs don't seem to prevent people from going to Smuggs.


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## machski (Jul 24, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Wouldn't surprise me to see Skytrac get the project. They can outprice Dopp or Poma and want their fixed grip business.



Maybe, but Skytrac only has 2 installs this summer in all of North America.  From what I have heard, Dopp is fiercly competting on price now as they want to regain a stranglehold of the lift business in America.  Even Poma is having trouble winning contracts right now.


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## xwhaler (Jul 24, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Portland Press Herald has a good article:  http://www.pressherald.com/2015/07/...nt-reopen-unless-it-gets-3-million-financing/
> 
> “The perception is that during busy times, we have long lift lines,” said Berry. “It does impact your vacation and your weekend traffic.”
> 
> Painfully slow double chairs don't seem to prevent people from going to Smuggs.


I would argue that Smuggs is much more of a destination resort than Saddleback. Smuggs has an award winning ski school, a lot of condo build out, multiple restaurants, pools, hot tubs etc.
Saddleback ski school and the terrain they teach on is excellent but they don't really have the other amenities that makes doing a week long vacation quite as easy with a family. Folks at Smuggs are willing to deal with the slow doubles since the build out is already there and there is much more to do beyond the skiing.
Also Smuggs draws from a greater local population base---Burlington and surrounding towns is more built up than Rangeley.
The town of Rangeley is great but is a bit detached from the mountain as well.


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## Jully (Jul 24, 2015)

End of the article makes it seem like the Berrys want to sell pretty bad. Replacing the Rangely would provide incentive for a new owner to come in.

I think they're just looking to make the resort profitable enough to sell and get a return on their $40 million investment.


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## xwhaler (Jul 24, 2015)

The reason for the lift upgrade is pretty simple to me. They are trying to steal potential market share away from SL/SR.
When folks who ski those mtns come to SB they may encounter long lines at the double on the wknds (other lifts ski on but what they first see is the double)
Those folks may not get to appreciate the amazing mtn that Saddleback is if they just try and ski off the double---those folks then don't return.
Saddleback markets themselves as the "no lines, uncrowded slopes" alternative. The slow double with potentially long lines doesn;t help them with this.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2015)

Personally, I don't think a Fixed Grip is enough to make much of a difference.  I think they really need a HSQ to steal market share from SR/SL.


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## Riverskier (Jul 24, 2015)

I have only been to Saddleback once and loved the place. However, the line for the double was out of control. Didn't effect my day that much or my decision to return, as the terrain I wanted to ski was off the Kennebago which was ski on. However, if I was there to ski off the double I would be hesitant to return, so I understand where the long line perception comes from even if it is only the case a small % of days. Of course I told people how much I loved the place, but also about the lines, so I guess I am part of the problem.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Personally, I don't think a Fixed Grip is enough to make much of a difference.  I think they really need a HSQ to steal market share from SR/SL.



Agreed


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## Newpylong (Jul 24, 2015)

machski said:


> Maybe, but Skytrac only has 2 installs this summer in all of North America.  From what I have heard, Dopp is fiercly competting on price now as they want to regain a stranglehold of the lift business in America.  Even Poma is having trouble winning contracts right now.



Yup, Skytrac tried but lost to Dopple on the new Valley Quad at the Bush.


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## machski (Jul 24, 2015)

Jully said:


> End of the article makes it seem like the Berrys want to sell pretty bad. Replacing the Rangely would provide incentive for a new owner to come in.
> 
> I think they're just looking to make the resort profitable enough to sell and get a return on their $40 million investment.



They will never find a buyer in my opinion if the keep the ski area sale separated from the mountain real estate property.  That is how they have it now and I don't see a buyer for just the ski resort operation.  They will need to sell both to find a buyer so I am not convinced they want to sell "really bad".  They may want to shed the operations of the ski area if it is bleeding money, but holding onto the real estate tells me they still think long term SB has growth potential.


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## dlague (Jul 24, 2015)

Riverskier said:


> I have only been to Saddleback once and loved the place. However, the line for the double was out of control. Didn't effect my day that much or my decision to return, as the terrain I wanted to ski was off the Kennebago which was ski on. However, if I was there to ski off the double I would be hesitant to return, so I understand where the long line perception comes from even if it is only the case a small % of days. Of course I told people how much I loved the place, but also about the lines, so I guess I am part of the problem.



We generally go there for the RSNE weekend at least for the past four years.  We always have fun.  Our strategy is to ride the double and then lap/ski the Kennebago Quad.  If the line is too long, take the double chair next to the lodge (Sandy) and scoot over to the Cupsuptic T-bar and ski "The Pass" (mountain traverse) over to Kennebago Quad or lap the T-bar.  Basically I may ride the Rangeley Double about twice in a day - waste of time!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2015)

machski said:


> They will never find a buyer in my opinion if the keep the ski area sale separated from the mountain real estate property.  That is how they have it now and I don't see a buyer for just the ski resort operation.  They will need to sell both to find a buyer so I am not convinced they want to sell "really bad".  They may want to shed the operations of the ski area if it is bleeding money, but holding onto the real estate tells me they still think long term SB has growth potential.



Agreed.  No one is buying the place unless an abundance of slope side real estate is included.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2015)

The Balsams project can't make a sale of SB any easier.


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## drjeff (Jul 24, 2015)

Bottom line, for the masses (I.E. the folks who ski resorts make most of their $$ off of) Saddleback is always going to be perceived as being a LONG ride into the middle of cold nowhere to sit on some slow lifts.  That is a combo that will make it tough for them to get what they really need, which is a yearly increase of 10-25k plus visitors....


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## dlague (Jul 24, 2015)

drjeff said:


> Bottom line, for the masses (I.E. the folks who ski resorts make most of their $$ off of) Saddleback is always going to be perceived as being a LONG ride into the middle of cold nowhere to sit on some slow lifts.  That is a combo that will make it tough for them to get what they really need, which is a yearly increase of 10-25k plus visitors....



Funny the ride up does not seem that bad due to excitement I guess but the ride home seems long as hell!


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## steamboat1 (Jul 24, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> I would argue that Smuggs is much more of a destination resort than Saddleback. Smuggs has an award winning ski school, a lot of condo build out, multiple restaurants, pools, hot tubs etc.
> Saddleback ski school and the terrain they teach on is excellent but they don't really have the other amenities that makes doing a week long vacation quite as easy with a family. Folks at Smuggs are willing to deal with the slow doubles since the build out is already there and there is much more to do beyond the skiing.
> Also Smuggs draws from a greater local population base---Burlington and surrounding towns is more built up than Rangeley.
> The town of Rangeley is great but is a bit detached from the mountain as well.


Smuggs does a pretty good summer business also from what I saw. Passed by 2 weeks ago & the Morse parking lot was pretty full. I drove up the road where all the condo development is & that also looked to be pretty full. This was on a weekday. A lot more activity going on at Smuggs than at Stowe. So busy in fact they had several shuttle vans driving around the area.


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## crank (Jul 24, 2015)

I haven't been in 7 years but I remember the town of Rangely being pretty small with a couple motels and maybe 3 places to eat.  Completely take over by sledders in the winter.


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## bigbog (Jul 24, 2015)

It's a very small village on a lake known for its history of trout DNA;-).  Two of the best known river systems in the state , for trout fishing,  flow into the lake, but that's it...and snomobiling.   Skiing runs behind fishing in Maine.  A completely different scene from Vermont and NH.  Rangeley is out in the lesser developed/populated woodlands of Maine..ie _rural_...in comparison to Vermont or New Hampshire...where more developed highways helps customer travel and elevation with big mountains that would seem to make running a ski resort pretty easy.  Idiots who can't manage a three car funeral are out  there....everywhere...today, but I wonder if Les Otten couldn't make something of the place....y/n?


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## xwhaler (Jul 24, 2015)

Rangeley has grown quite a bit for those who haven't been up there in years. There are a bunch of yr round and seasonal restaurants, a bowling alley, retail shops, multiple marinas around the lake, 2 golf courses, etc.
It's not Burlington or anything remotely close but compared to say Carabassett Valley there is much more going on as a 4 season destination.
I'll be up there over Labor Day wknd (rented a cabin on the lake with my family) and can try and upload some pics if anyone is interested.


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## dlague (Jul 24, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> I would argue that Smuggs is much more of a destination resort than Saddleback. Smuggs has an award winning ski school, a lot of condo build out, multiple restaurants, pools, hot tubs etc.
> Saddleback ski school and the terrain they teach on is excellent but they don't really have the other amenities that makes doing a week long vacation quite as easy with a family. Folks at Smuggs are willing to deal with the slow doubles since the build out is already there and there is much more to do beyond the skiing.
> Also Smuggs draws from a greater local population base---Burlington and surrounding towns is more built up than Rangeley.
> The town of Rangeley is great but is a bit detached from the mountain as well.



Not to mention that getting to Smuggs is much easier and closer to Boston and NYC by 1 or 2 hours respectively,  Smuggs has much better terrain and twice the size too!  So considering the lift prices being the same $69 (Saddleback) vs $70 Smuggs.  It is easier to understand why people are more attracked to Smuggs not to mention that Smuggs has something people are willing to wait in line for.


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## fiddleski (Jul 25, 2015)

I know Les Otten's name is poison to some, but he does seem to have the magic touch with investors and bankers. Saddleback seems to have much more potential to me than The Balsams, but if the Berrys are not interested in selling the development property, then there's nowhere to go with it. I never could understand that sale strategy.





bigbog said:


> It's a very small village on a lake known for its history of trout DNA;-).  Two of the best known river systems in the state , for trout fishing,  flow into the lake, but that's it...and snomobiling.   Skiing runs behind fishing in Maine.  A completely different scene from Vermont and NH.  Rangeley is out in the lesser developed/populated woodlands of Maine..ie _rural_...in comparison to Vermont or New Hampshire...where more developed highways helps customer travel and elevation with big mountains that would seem to make running a ski resort pretty easy.  Idiots who can't manage a three car funeral are out  there....everywhere...today, but I wonder if Les Otten couldn't make something of the place....y/n?


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## prsboogie (Jul 26, 2015)

dlague said:


> Not to mention that getting to Smuggs is much easier and closer to Boston and NYC by 1 or 2 hours respectively



Curious, it too me 5 to smuggs and 5 to SB and that was with the same # of stops from the Providence  area


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 27, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> Curious, it too me 5 to smuggs and 5 to SB and that was with the same # of stops from the Providence  area



Yeah, maybe 30 minute difference max (excluding traffic).


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## dlague (Jul 27, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Yeah, maybe 30 minute difference max (excluding traffic).



I forgot that 108 is closed in the winter adding and extra 20 minutes or so to Smuggs trip.  In any case, I think Smuggs still offers better terrain and is significantly larger for the lift ticket costs.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 27, 2015)

People here have hit the nail on the head.  Smuggs seen by many of its customers as a destination resort.  Saddleback is not.


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 27, 2015)

Smuggs is also a lot closer to Montreal metro area.  So I'm guessing there are significantly more skier visits from Canada at Smuggs than Saddleback.


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## EPB (Jul 27, 2015)

dlague said:


> I forgot that 108 is closed in the winter adding and extra 20 minutes or so to Smuggs trip.  In any case, I think Smuggs still offers better terrain and is significantly larger for the lift ticket costs.



I agree that the terrain is better at Smuggs, but weekend/holiday lift lines combined with the slow lift system makes runs off of the Madonna 1 chair take forever. I can't believe so many people drive so far to wait in those lines. Saddleback has a slow lift system, but you spend considerably more time in the snow there than at Smuggs. 

Also, to DHS's point, I think that the sterling lift at Smuggs and the Rangeley chair at Saddleback are probably in the most desperate need of high speed replacements as anywhere in the east. Don't know if one at Saddleback will ever make economic sense though.


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## dlague (Jul 27, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> I agree that the terrain is better at Smuggs, but weekend/holiday lift lines combined with the slow lift system makes runs off of the Madonna 1 chair take forever. I can't believe so many people drive so far to wait in those lines. Saddleback has a slow lift system, but you spend considerably more time in the snow there than at Smuggs.
> 
> Also, to DHS's point, I think that the sterling lift at Smuggs and the Rangeley chair at Saddleback are probably in the most desperate need of high speed replacements as anywhere in the east. Don't know if one at Saddleback will ever make economic sense though.



Trust me, I am not a fan of Smuggs setup.  I do like the terrain.  However, we ski there probably once every two years because each time I go I get reminded of the lift lines and the craziness at the restaurants/bars for food and beverages.  I agree with you regarding time on the snow, though.  Once you are on the Kennebago Quad - no real need to be on the Double.  I will often ski off the T-bar if I want to hit some runs in the blue pod and you can still cut back over to Kennebago.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 27, 2015)

dlague said:


> I forgot that 108 is closed in the winter adding and extra 20 minutes or so to Smuggs trip.


I'd love to see you make Smuggs in 20 minutes from the town of Stowe (108/100 intersection). That's Tuna speed.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2015)

To go through the Notch to Smuggs from downtown Stowe takes about 20-25 minutes.  To go around via Stagecoach Road and route 15, it's about 40-45 minutes.  So, it really is only about 20 minutes further driving around. 

That said, in winter when you're coming from Boston you go a different route to Smuggs than you do to Stowe.   Fastest route is to continue up 93 to Saint Johnsbury and grab 2 > 15 across.

Google maps automatically routes via 108 and the Notch because that's the least mileage.  That's where I assume Dlague got his time estimate from.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 27, 2015)

Hmm... I never thought about going through St. Johnsbury.  Google Maps says that taking I-89 to Richmond is a few minutes faster.  But they are pretty close.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2015)

You know, I haven't timed out the Richmond route before.  That's a good way as well.  I just know typically when I go to Smuggs I go up to St. J and over.  When I go to Stowe, it's 89 to 108.


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## dlague (Jul 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> To go through the Notch to Smuggs from downtown Stowe takes about 20-25 minutes.  To go around via Stagecoach Road and route 15, it's about 40-45 minutes.  So, it really is only about 20 minutes further driving around.
> 
> That said, in winter when you're coming from Boston you go a different route to Smuggs than you do to Stowe.   Fastest route is to continue up 93 to Saint Johnsbury and grab 2 > 15 across.
> 
> Google maps automatically routes via 108 and the Notch because that's the least mileage.  That's where I assume Dlague got his time estimate from.



I have gone that route coming from Nothern VT and never thought about that from the south.  Yes, I generally get off the same exit on 89 as Stowe and drive around.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I'd love to see you make Smuggs in 20 minutes from the town of Stowe (108/100 intersection). That's Tuna speed.



To be fair that's not what he said.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> To be fair that's not what he said.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I'd love to see him make it in 40 minutes from that point. To be fair of course.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I'd love to see him make it in 40 minutes from that point. To be fair of course.



We followed the GPS to Smuggs which took us on 108 then had to drive around and it took us about 45 minutes.  Get the damn cars off the road and I will do it in 20 from Stowe Center.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2015)

Not 20 minutes, but 35 is doable using Stagecoach road to skip driving through Morrisville and only marginally breaking the speed limit.  Google maps has it at exactly 45 going through Morrisville via 100 to route 15.  Not sure why Steamboat thinks 40-45 minutes from Stowe center to Smuggs is difficult.  He must be misremembering the drive time.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

Possibly,being our lodge is on the western side of the Greens when I do go to Smuggs I'd normally drive up rt.7 to Burlington & cut across from there. Been awhile since I drove there from the other side. I just remember it being quite a long drive seeing the two areas are right next to each other. Didn't know the short cut avoiding Morrisville which can get quite congested. On the other hand it's quicker to go over Brandon Gap & up rt.100 to get to Stowe.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2015)

I never realized, until we took the wrong path to Smuggs, just how close together they are.  Is it even a half mile between Spruce Peak and the top of Sterling?


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> I never realized, until we took the wrong path to Smuggs, just how close together they are.  Is it even a half mile between Spruce Peak and the top of Sterling?


Sterling is the other side of Spruce Peak. They are both on the same mountain. Years ago we'd use a single ride coupon to ride the Big Spruce chair at Stowe & traverse across the top of the mountain & ski down into Smuggs or Madonna as it was called back then. There's a lake on top that's frozen in winter you have to traverse across.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Sterling is the other side of Spruce Peak. They are both on the same mountain. Years ago we'd use a single ride coupon to ride the Big Spruce chair at Stowe & traverse across the top of the mountain & ski down into Smuggs or Madonna as it was called back then. There's a lake on top that's frozen in winter you have to traverse across.



Looks like the you can take the long trail to sterling pond then cross the ice followed by an uphill to where the sterling lift is.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> Looks like the you can take the long trail to sterling pond then cross the ice followed by an uphill to where the sterling lift is.


dlague it's been at least 40 years since I did the traverse. I really don't remember it that well. Perhaps someone else has done it more recently & can chime in. I do remember doing it several times with both my entire family & with my brother a couple of times. I believe the trail is still there with the entrance being just a short hike up from the Sensation quad. Back in the day we skied down to the entrance from the old Big Spruce double which went higher than the present Sensation quad. Since you can no longer purchase single ride coupons at Stowe the cost of having to buy a ticket for both Stowe & Smuggs makes the trip cost prohibitive now.


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## skiberg (Jul 28, 2015)

I've done the traverse a few times but last was about 20 years ago when they had Jt. Stowe/Smugs lift pass. I don't remember the traverse being all hat bad. Had a couple nice lunch breaks while at it.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

skiberg said:


> I've done the traverse a few times but last was about 20 years ago when they had Jt. Stowe/Smugs lift pass. I don't remember the traverse being all hat bad. Had a couple nice lunch breaks while at it.


I don't remember the traverse being bad either but of course I was much younger then.


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## WoodCore (Jul 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> dlague it's been at least 40 years since I did the traverse. I really don't remember it that well. Perhaps someone else has done it more recently & can chime in. I do remember doing it several times with both my entire family & with my brother a couple of times. I believe the trail is still there with the entrance being just a short hike up from the Sensation quad. Back in the day we skied down to the entrance from the old Big Spruce double which went higher than the present Sensation quad. Since you can no longer purchase single ride coupons at Stowe the cost of having to buy a ticket for both Stowe & Smuggs makes the trip cost prohibitive now.




I made the traverse from Smuggs to Stowe in 2014. http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/129270-Northern-Vermont-Trifecta-3-20-2014-3-23-2014 Without it being groomed and breaking through fresh snow the trip across the lake can be workout as it's a good distance and flat as a pancake. The trip from Stowe over to Smuggs is much easier. Both routes remain very passable!! 

Last time I checked you are still able to purchase a single ride ticket at Smuggs which would allow you to utilize the crossover without too much financial damage, well until you bought your ticket at $towe.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

WoodCore said:


> Last time I checked you are still able to purchase a single ride ticket at Smuggs which would allow you to utilize the crossover without too much financial damage, well until you bought your ticket at $towe.


Yes but being that most others & myself are coming up from the south the whole idea of doing the traverse to Smuggs was to save the drive time getting to Smuggs.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes but being that most others & myself are coming up from the south the whole idea of doing the traverse to Smuggs was to save the drive time getting to Smuggs.



And ski Smuggs for nearly twice as much


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## chuckstah (Jul 28, 2015)

I frequently made the trip over to Smuggs from Stowe, back in the Spruce double days. The run was on map, called Snuffys I believe. We would park at the base of the double, bribe the lifty with some smoke or a few bucks and head on over. Short traverse, and it was often groomed at the time.  Ski smuggs for the day and back down Spruce to the car. Saved a lot of driving. Never found it very difficult in either direction, but there was a lot of flats, and a bit of uphill.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> And ski Smuggs for nearly twice as much


LOL, back in the day a single ride coupon at Stowe was a couple of bucks at best (probably much less). There were 10 single ride coupons in a book. MRG also sold single ride coupon books back in the day. When I was 20 a full day ticket at Stowe was $12 & I think I was less than 20 when I used to do this. Like I said earlier today the cost is prohibitive.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2015)

In 2001 Smuggs would give you a free voucher good for 1 ride up the Sterling chair.  You had to get it from guest services in the Madonna lodge.  If you skied over a second time you were on the hook for a full day tickets.  I bet 50 days that season I started my day parking at the Spruce Chair and would ski the the birthday bowls down to Smuggs.  Now because I only ski Stowe once a year I don't bother.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2015)

Bump.  The wait continues.  

http://www.powder.com/stories/news/...o-seek-financing-options/#dc2HYObbEZl2IPm3.97


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## ScottySkis (Aug 3, 2015)

Sad.


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## Rikka (Aug 3, 2015)

Wonder why they can't secure credit? Seems odd.



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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2015)

The same reason why the State of NH is backing the financing of the Balsams; the risk is too great for a private lender to take on.


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2015)

Can't imagine the ROI timeframe the Berrys are looking at right now. Bought the place for 8 million and put 40 million more in. Place is in no way worth that now.


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## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

Does seem odd that they are selling the place for so cheap, compared to what they invested in it. Really interested in knowing who the potential buyer(s) is for the resort.


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## marcski (Aug 4, 2015)

In the years since they've  owned the mountain, haven't they sold some of the real estate near the base to recoup some of the monies they spent?


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## EPB (Aug 4, 2015)

Jully said:


> Can't imagine the ROI timeframe the Berrys are looking at right now. Bought the place for 8 million and put 40 million more in. Place is in no way worth that now.



I'd be curious to know how much of this includes condos that they've already seen the profit from though.... Whoops looks like someone just about said that.


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## xwhaler (Aug 4, 2015)

marcski said:


> In the years since they've  owned the mountain, haven't they sold some of the real estate near the base to recoup some of the monies they spent?



Yes, and they have built additional condos and sold some of those as well. They had a much more extensive build out proposed that didn't come to fruition which has hampered the cash flow.


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Yes, and they have built additional condos and sold some of those as well. They had a much more extensive build out proposed that didn't come to fruition which has hampered the cash flow.



However it's in no way $48 million in sales. Additionally if they have been operating the resort at a loss for awhile l, then the real estate sales might just be covering those losses and maybe not even.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The same reason why the State of NH is backing the financing of the Balsams; the risk is too great for a private lender to take on.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2015)

I thought they were only selling the ski area and keeping some land and real estate.  So its not a total loss.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

On a serious note, weren't they considering doing an EB-5 offering?


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## EPB (Aug 4, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> I thought they were only selling the ski area and keeping some land and real estate.  So its not a total loss.



This strikes me as a value-destroying proposition. I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy the place at all without the option to develop real estate. I've heard the same thing too- seems to be the prevailing rumor. It just doesn't make any sense from the perspective of the buyer.


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> On a serious note, weren't they considering doing an EB-5 offering?



I remember hearing something about it awhile back too. I believe they got Franklin County all ready for EB-5 investment. Don't know what happened. Certainly can qualify as a high priority area or whatever making a $500,000 investment possible


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## ss20 (Aug 4, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


>


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## steamboat1 (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't believe new lifts qualify for EB-5 because they wouldn't create enough jobs. In the case of Saddleback needing $3m that means at least 6 (propably 7 after application fees) investors. Since each EB-5 investment is supposed to create at least 10 full time jobs I don't think 60-70 jobs would be created by a lift.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't believe new lifts qualify for EB-5 because they wouldn't create enough jobs. In the case of Saddleback needing $3m that means at least 6 (propably 7 after application fees) investors. Since each EB-5 investment is supposed to create at least 10 full time jobs I don't think 60-70 jobs would be created by a lift.



Right, but EB-5 for their entire project....not just lifts.  I think that they had started going down the EB-5 road but lost interest.


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## Smellytele (Aug 4, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't believe new lifts qualify for EB-5 because they wouldn't create enough jobs. In the case of Saddleback needing $3m that means at least 6 (propably 7 after application fees) investors. Since each EB-5 investment is supposed to create at least 10 full time jobs I don't think 60-70 jobs would be created by a lift.



well if they close then apply for eb-5 it would create more than 7 jobs.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> well if they close then apply for eb-5 it would create more than 7 jobs.



Don't give them any ideas......


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## steamboat1 (Aug 4, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> well if they close then apply for eb-5 it would create more than 7 jobs.


Actually they wouldn't have to create any new jobs. They'd just have to show they saved 10 jobs per investor. Actually they wouldn't even have to close. Just show they've been losing money for several years. I forget the exact requirements for this.

edit: To qualify for the just saving jobs provision they'd have to show their net worth has dropped more than 20%. I know I've been getting bashed on the Sugarbush thread but Win used this provision when applying for EB-5 money.


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## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

I pretty sure in that area of Maine, they would qualify for just retaining 10 jobs per investment.


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## dlague (Aug 4, 2015)

UPDATE: Maine's Saddleback ski area has extended the deadline to secure $3 million needed to stave off closing.   Shocking!


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## skiMEbike (Aug 4, 2015)

Here's the article in Bangor Daily News....Sounds like next week we should hear something:

DALLAS PLANTATION, Maine — The general manager for the Saddleback ski area said Friday the resort was going to extend by a few days its self-imposed deadline for securing $3 million in financing for a new chairlift.

In July, the resort announced it would have to close for the 2015-16 ski season if it was unable to replace its Rangeley Double Chairlift which, although having been refurbished in the mid-2000s, is going on 51 years old.

Chris Farmer, Saddleback’s general manager and real estate agent, said the ski hill was essentially in a “holding pattern.”

“We are still working on it,” Farmer said at about 4 p.m. Friday.

On July 20, Saddleback’s co-owner and spokesman Mark Berry announced the ski area would cease winter operations if it could not secure $3 million in financing needed to purchase a new four-person chairlift to replace the aging 4,717-foot double chairlift that currently services much of the ski hill’s intermediate terrain and provides access to the resort’s upper chairlift, the Kennebago Quad.

In a release Friday, Berry said that, over the two weeks since the announcement that the ski hill was facing closure, his family and mountain managers have “been working every possible angle to secure the financing needed to build the lift and to develop a long-term plan that will safeguard the winter operations for the future.”

Berry said he and the other owners recognize the ski hill’s important role in the region’s economy.

“The economic impact on our staff and the community is not lost on us,” Berry said. “We’ve worked very hard and had several meetings with financial institutions and potential buyers. While I am not able to announce a decision today, I believe we will have a yes or a no answer by mid next week — and that’s progress from where we were two weeks ago. A final decision is needed in the next few business days to ensure the lift can be purchased and installed in time.”

Berry said public support for the ski hill, which has recently touted its solitude with a marketing slogan, “Take the trail less skied. Break away from the crowd,” has been strong.

“We are humbled and grateful for the amazing show of support for this beautiful Rangeley mountain resort,” Berry said. “Our family and our staff have invested our heart and soul into providing Maine families with a safe, friendly affordable ski area that they can call their own and it remains our goal to ensure its long-term future.”

He said the family business partners have long held the goal of replacing the antiquated double chair with a quad or four-passenger chairlift.

The resort employs up to 300 people in the winter and has averaged 80,000 to 100,000 skier visits per year.

Since buying the resort in 2003, the Berry family has spent more than $40 million on improvements, according to published reports. They put the resort, most of its 121 condominiums and 400 acres on the market in 2012 for $14 million.

It’s currently for sale for $9.5 million with 2,070 acres.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> Here's the article in Bangor Daily News....Sounds like next week we should hear something:
> 
> DALLAS PLANTATION, Maine — The general manager for the Saddleback ski area said Friday the resort was going to extend by a few days its self-imposed deadline for securing $3 million in financing for a new chairlift.
> 
> ...



So it is for sale at $9.5 million?  Wow.  Something sounds wrong.  

Also interesting that it is in the same skier day range as Burke (75k-100k) that also struggles.


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## ss20 (Aug 4, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> The resort employs up to 300 people in the winter and has averaged 80,000 to 100,000 skier visits per year.



:-o

That's... nothing.  I'm one of 350 at Thunder Bump.  To run a whole mountain of that magnitude with 300 people is incredible.  And 80,000-1000,000 skier visits in a season?  I'm sure Stratton, Mount Snow, Okemo, Killington, Sunday River, and Loon get 80,000 people on the hill both President's Week and Christmas break.


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## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

It is not for sale with 2,070 acres of land for 9.3 million. Jesus, ever article you read gets something wrong. The 2,70 acres of land are for sale, separate from the ski resort.


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## Jully (Aug 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Actually they wouldn't have to create any new jobs. They'd just have to show they saved 10 jobs per investor. Actually they wouldn't even have to close. Just show they've been losing money for several years. I forget the exact requirements for this.
> 
> edit: To qualify for the just saving jobs provision they'd have to show their net worth has dropped more than 20%. I know I've been getting bashed on the Sugarbush thread but Win used this provision when applying for EB-5 money.



That's very interesting. I was not aware of that fact. I wonder if their net worth has dropped 20% or if they would even bother to go into it at this point in time.


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## salsgang (Aug 16, 2015)

Here is to hoping we get some news, hopefully good, this week. Good thoughts to all involved.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 16, 2015)

salsgang said:


> Here is to hoping we get some news, hopefully good, this week. Good thoughts to all involved.


For your sake & all Saddleback regulars I hope for positive news too.


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## x10003q (Aug 18, 2015)

I just spoke to guest services and there is still no information today - 8/18/2015.


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## tipsdown (Aug 19, 2015)

It appears as though a sale is in the works...Who, is anyone's guess....


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## ss20 (Aug 19, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> It appears as though a sale is in the works...Who, is anyone's guess....



Save Saddleback
Q Saddleback
Otten's Saddleback


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> It appears as though a sale is in the works...Who, is anyone's guess....




Peaks!
Peaks!
Peaks!


one can hope


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2015)

Peak has made it abundantly clear to investors that they are looking to buy. SB probably fits the size (in earnings) that they're after. Not sure about proximity to population centers though.


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## ss20 (Aug 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Peaks!
> Peaks!
> Peaks!
> 
> ...



Not a chance.  They're slowly dying financially.  Wildcat got their snowmaking re-build out of necessity.  Crotched's Quad was from an abandoned area.  Last year Mount Snow's new guns were financed by the State, and this year/next year's West Lake are coming from EB-5 money.  Their stock which sold for $9-$11 in November has been hovering around $7 from January onward.


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## AdironRider (Aug 19, 2015)

Yeah Peaks is on the slow march to death. 

I'm guessing it won't be a standard player in the game, but could see some Maine timber tycoon buying it up or something like that.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm aware its highly unlikely.  It would be great to have Saddleback on my pass though.


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## ss20 (Aug 19, 2015)

Let me say it before anyone else does...

Vail Resorts!

*runs to AZ fallout shelter*


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2015)

hate to burst your bubble, but people have said it before.  Lots of real estate that could be developed.  Opportunity for Vail to break into the New England market on the cheap.


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2015)

I'd buy Peak if I were Vail. $93 million market cap for all those Midwest feeder hills and some cherries on top in the northeast sounds way more appealing.


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## Puck it (Aug 19, 2015)

Powdr!


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## drjeff (Aug 20, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd buy Peak if I were Vail. $93 million market cap for all those Midwest feeder hills and some cherries on top in the northeast sounds way more appealing.



As much as I'm very happy with what Peak has done with Mount Snow since they bought it, and still is doing/planning to do with Mount Snow in the coming years, I'd be thrilled if Vail Resorts bought Peak for the reasons you listed, even if it means that Mount Snow would once again likely not be treated by the owners as their flagship resort, as Peak has been doing for the last 6 or 7 years now


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## EPB (Aug 20, 2015)

I know I've said this before, but it would be a great growth engine for the epic pass, which is how they lure families to drop the big bucks out west. No idea if it would ever happen, but I think there is good reason for Vail to do it.


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## Whitey (Aug 20, 2015)

I’m no finance guy, and even further from a real estate expert.   But I have a really bad feeling about this one.   I’d hate to see SB close because I have skied there several times and even rented a house up there a couple of seasons ago (just for a 1 week trip).  I really love the area.   But there are so many things that don’t seem to work for this. 

The only way it’s viable is if they can increase the # of skier visits.    Some have said the replacing the Rangeley double isn’t necessary.   I couldn’t disagree more.   Yes, you can get around it but that’s only if you want to ski off of the Kennebago quad.    That’s the part of the mtn that interest me too, but I am an expert skier.   The key to increasing skier visits is getting the beginner and intermediate skiers to ski your mountain.   The Kennebago quad and the T-bar don’t do much for that skier group.     Additionally, it’s not just about how long the lift lines are for the Rangeley – it’s also a lot about how long the ride is.   Good god it is that a long, slow, and usually very cold,  ride.  It's even worse after standing in line for 10-15 min.    Also you have to throw in the bad publicity that SL has gotten for the safety of older lifts in Maine, yikes - it's a 51 yr old lift.   I’m no expert, but I think that if your goal is increasing skier visits – the Rangeley double is a deal-breaker. 

The other part to increase skier visits you’d have to do more with the base area.   The lodge is fine, actually very nice.   But there’s not much else.      That’s more $.  

At a time when skier visits are either plateaued or only marginally increasing – where are the add’l visits going to come from?    It’s too far from any major population centers.   So, to me, the only way they could increase visits significantly would be to take skiers away from SR and SL.     How does SB compete with those areas with all they have for amenities, lodging, and familiarity?    Even if they somehow find the $ to follow the “own the real estate, use the improved ski area to attract buyers/renters, make $ off of the real estate” plan that others have used – are there really enough people that they could pull in or steal from SL & SR to for that to work?   

So, not much chance of a new chair, unlikely to have or find the $ to improve base area and lodging, and I can’t see how they can steal skiers from SR & SL w/out those first two improvements.    About their only chance is to find deep pockets person/company that would be willing to lose money on the resort.   I think that person/company is standing next to a unicorn.  

And throw in that there potentially a new "major resort" coming up with the Balsams, more competition for skier visits.  

I think I will shed a tear when I read the “Saddleback” page on NELSAP in a few years.   I wish I didn't think that but can't seem to escape that conclusion.


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## Whitey (Aug 20, 2015)

PS - I think my last post just killed Salsgang.   Can someone go by his house and check on him for me?


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## catsup948 (Aug 22, 2015)

I actually think besides prices going up Saddleback would benefit from being bought by Vail.  New lift and any other improvements would likely happen right away.


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## bigbog (Aug 22, 2015)

Agree with catsup948 on deeper pockets handling things...they may be able to see more of the forest from the trees...than the present, including SL as well...y/n?  The idea that all New England ski resorts have to be groomed out bowling alleys is so ludicrous.  Skiers can ski any resort if there's one main lift to the top of each peak...


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## salsgang (Aug 29, 2015)

Whitey said:


> PS - I think my last post just killed Salsgang.   Can someone go by his house and check on him for me?



Haha I am still here. Not much new to report. For whatever reason they are in radio silence and all we all can do is speculate. 

I agree there are only so many skiers to go around. SB is behind the 8 ball in a very tough spot. I imagine we will know soon but I have been saying that for a few weeks!


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## SkiFanE (Aug 29, 2015)

bigbog said:


> Agree with catsup948 on deeper pockets handling things...they may be able to see more of the forest from the trees...than the present, including SL as well...y/n?  The idea that all New England ski resorts have to be groomed out bowling alleys is so ludicrous.  Skiers can ski any resort if there's one main lift to the top of each peak...


You could be onto somethjg. The biggest complaint about SR is their obsession with grooming. I hate it but it's still my home mountain, I get around it lol. If some western resort could leave SB in a more natural state and advertise it as the natural snow playground of the east type place, hmmmmm could work. Only been there once but it was amazing in Casablanca after 18" of fresh and I was astounded by the amount of snow the mountain had.  Yeah, nice to dream.... I really hope they can do something - hate to see it close.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2015)

I guess the whole threat about closing turned out to be just a bluff. Seems to me that they're losing credibility every day. Hopefully this gets all worked out and the lifts are spinning this year.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## joshua segal (Aug 29, 2015)

There has been active communication between Saddleback's management and the condo owners.  To the credit of that population, it is clear they have not leaked it to the general public.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> There has been active communication between Saddleback's management and the condo owners.  To the credit of that population, it is clear they have not leaked it to the general public.



Interesting 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ss20 (Aug 29, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> There has been active communication between Saddleback's management and the condo owners.  To the credit of that population, it is clear they have not leaked it to the general public.



And you're going to let us hang on this cliff...


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## marcski (Aug 29, 2015)

ss20 said:


> And you're going to let us hang on this cliff...


Knowing Joshua's posts over the years and the way he wrote this one....IMHO, the answer to your question is a resounding yes.


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## cdskier (Aug 30, 2015)

marcski said:


> Knowing Joshua's posts over the years and the way he wrote this one....IMHO, the answer to your question is a resounding yes.



Agreed. I don't see why Joshua would leak anything when he's praising others for not doing so.

A tiny bit off-topic, but I was doing some cleaning yesterday and found some old ski magazines and started skimming through a couple. One from 2006 had an article about 10 great ski instructors in the US. One that caught my eye was a guy named "Joshua Segal" who at the time taught at Ragged, NH. I said to myself, "I know that name from a ski forum online". Same Joshua Segal as the one that posts here?


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## joshua segal (Aug 30, 2015)

cdskier said:


> ...
> 
> ... Same Joshua Segal as the one that posts here?


Yes.


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## cdskier (Aug 30, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Yes.



Don't know why, but I find that pretty cool for some reason.


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## prsboogie (Aug 30, 2015)

cdskier said:


> A tiny bit off-topic, but I was doing some cleaning yesterday and found some old ski magazines and started skimming through a couple. One from 2006 had an article about 10 great ski instructors in the US. One that caught my eye was a guy named "Joshua Segal" who at the time taught at Ragged, NH. I said to myself, "I know that name from a ski forum online". Same Joshua Segal as the one that posts here?



To continue off topic, are you still instructing, say at Crotched?

Back on topic, I have a good friend at work who owns at SB and she is as tight lipped as it gets. I've asked several times what's going on and I just get, " we'll see what happens"! WTF!


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## joshua segal (Aug 30, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> To continue off topic, are you still instructing, say at Crotched?
> 
> ...


Yes.


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## salsgang (Aug 31, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> Back on topic, I have a good friend at work who owns at SB and she is as tight lipped as it gets. I've asked several times what's going on and I just get, " we'll see what happens"! WTF!



Very true. At least on-line and in the media, I have seen zero posts of "I am and condo owner and..." They are doing a remarkable job keeping this under wraps as this unfolds. Fingers crossed and still hoping for lift serviced turns this winter... 

Maine Sunday Telegram article from this weekend.

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/08/30/an-economic-cloud-hovers-over-saddleback/


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## xwhaler (Aug 31, 2015)

Will be up there for the long wknd coming up. Going to do a Rock and Midway pond hike with the family.
Will try and see what I see around the property.


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## skiMEbike (Sep 1, 2015)

Cross post from SL today...Rumors flying around about getting rid of groomers, dismantling the lift, limited operations....All not true & squashed by GM C Farmer....Keep the faith!!

Post from C Farmer in response to the rumors:

One Groomer went to Lewiston our 600 Winch cat. It is a leased machine, they wanted it there so they are ready for either scenario and be able to get it serviced for us.
No discussion of limited operation- RUMOR
Rangeley chair still intact has not been dismantled- RUMOR

Working hard on a solution, day and night. Hope to have a clear update by the end of the week, hoping for a positive end result. 
We have communicated as much as we can with condo owners and individuals but as many know a lot of this is confidential.

Back to work, Keep the Faith


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## joshua segal (Sep 2, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> ....
> 
> Back to work, Keep the *Faith*


Notice the pun (i.e Faith Berry, board of trustees, daughter of owners)!


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## DJAK (Sep 2, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Notice the pun (i.e Faith Berry, board of trustees, daughter of owners)!



Farmer is doing well considering the pickle he's in.


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## Cat in January (Sep 2, 2015)

Disagree with that.  Going public trying to push things along with scare of a deadline and then going dead silent weeks after the deadline passed is not doing well in my book.  Was the deadline real or just made up to rouse public pressure in your favor?   Because Saddleback elected to involve the public in their press release, they should continue to be public with what is going on.  Not the particulars, but at least the generalities.  Not impressed with how Saddleback has handled this at all.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2015)

Maybe they should start a GoFundme page.  :lol:

I'm pulling for them, but I agree the situation hasn't been handled well.


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## Cat in January (Sep 2, 2015)

I too am pulling for them.  Nice place with low skier density and relatively unpretentious.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2015)

Cat in January said:


> Disagree with that.  Going public trying to push things along with scare of a deadline and then going dead silent weeks after the deadline passed is not doing well in my book.  Was the deadline real or just made up to rouse public pressure in your favor?   Because Saddleback elected to involve the public in their press release, they should continue to be public with what is going on.  Not the particulars, but at least the generalities.  Not impressed with how Saddleback has handled this at all.



Agreed.  If you are going to make a threat you have to be ready to act on that threat, or else you lose credibility.  I'm not sure what their goal was--to influence the State?  A large lender?  Investors?


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## steamboat1 (Sep 2, 2015)

Kind of like Magic going public & saying they have new owners but they aren't saying who yet.

I hope both mountains have a bright future.


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## DJAK (Sep 2, 2015)

Cat in January said:


> Disagree with that.  Going public trying to push things along with scare of a deadline and then going dead silent weeks after the deadline passed is not doing well in my book.  Was the deadline real or just made up to rouse public pressure in your favor?   Because Saddleback elected to involve the public in their press release, they should continue to be public with what is going on.  Not the particulars, but at least the generalities.  Not impressed with how Saddleback has handled this at all.



I meant the dude himself, not the plan that created the pickle. He's staying positive.


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## tipsdown (Sep 2, 2015)

I believe the problem is that they changed course mid-stream.  The original intent was to raise capital for the new lift.  Towards the end of that process they were fielding calls from legitimate potential buyers.  Selling the mountain superseded raising money for a new lift and now here we  are... 
Negotiating the sale of a mountain/resort takes months, not days.  My guess is, they felt this was a necessary move to get buyers off the sidelines. So they sent this release out to every ski publication and media outlet for a reaction. If it was crickets on the buyer side, they’d raise the money to install a new lift and kick the sale down the road. If they starting receiving calls from buyers, they’d bail on the new lift and sell.  From what I’ve heard, they’ve received a number of offers over the last couple of years but were unwilling to part with it based on the buyers future plans and or terms/conditions. They’ve now backed off that stance and want out. This may have been the only way to effectively do that without giving it away at a fire sale price.  Regardless, this appears to have been totally mishandled. They’re biggest mistake was trying to cram a solution into 2 weeks.  If they made this announcement at the start of last ski season, they never would have been in this predicament.  Who knows, they may have a marquee buyer lined up that's going  to turn the area in a premier resort and they’re just finalizing details.  That’s kind of what this feels like given all the “confidentiality” talk.  And if that’s the case we may look back on this and say their strategy was a success….But it’s too bad it has to come at the expense of hanging their year round staff, properties owners, and community out to dry for the entire summer, if not longer.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2015)

DJAK said:


> I meant the dude himself, not the plan that created the pickle. He's staying positive.



He's in a tough spot no doubt.


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## salsgang (Sep 2, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> I believe the problem is that they changed course mid-stream.  The original intent was to raise capital for the new lift.  Towards the end of that process they were fielding calls from legitimate potential buyers.  Selling the mountain superseded raising money for a new lift and now here we are...
> Negotiating the sale of a mountain/resort takes months, notdays.  My guess is, they felt this was a necessarymove to get buyers off the sidelines. So they sent this release out to every skipublication and media outlet for a reaction. If it was crickets on the buyer side, they’d raise the money to installa new lift and kick the sale down the road. If they starting receiving calls from buyers, they’d bail on the new liftand sell.  From what I’ve heard, they’ve receiveda number of offers over the last couple of years but were unwilling to partwith it based on the buyers future plans and or terms/conditions. They’ve nowbacked off that stance and want out. This may have been the only way toeffectively do that without giving it away at a fire sale price.  Regardless, this appears to have been totallymishandled. They’re biggest mistake was trying to cram a solution into 2weeks.  If they made this announcement atthe start of last ski season, they never would have been in this predicament.  Who knows, they may have a marquee buyerlined up that's going  to turn the area in a premier resort and they’re just finalizingdetails.  That’s kind of what this feels likegiven all the “confidentiality” talk.  Andif that’s the case we may look back on this and say their strategy was a success….But it’s too bad it has to come at the expense of hanging their year roundstaff, properties owners, and community out to dry for the entire summer, ifnot longer.



^^^

Hopefully it all works out in the end.


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## x10003q (Sep 2, 2015)

I was up in Rangeley last week. We hiked SB. There was nothing happening on the mountain. The whole area is just beautiful. When I spoke to the locals I got a host of opinions and hearsay about the situation. One major theme is there are too many Berry chiefs. Another was the double chair should have been replaced before they did up the Lodge. I hope they figure it out.
Top of the double in question


View of Rangeley Lake from the top of Saddleback


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## salsgang (Sep 2, 2015)

Update on the Saddleback Facebook Page. No resolution yet but interesting none the less. I vote for any option but #2. 

SADDLEBACKERS: All of us are waiting to see what the future holds for Saddleback.
Over the past 44 days we have exhausted all reasonable financing options for replacing the Rangeley Double chair with a quad. Although we have not been able to secure financing for the quad, there has been significant interest in a purchase of the resort. As many of you know commercial transactions of this nature take time; Buyers need to do their due diligence (homework) and the process requires a high level of confidentiality. The degree of confidentiality can be frustrating to all of us because we would love to tell you what is going on but legal restrictions prevent us from sharing.
Here are the scenarios we are working through now:
1. We have a buyer negotiating to buy the resort and install a quad lift this season.
2. We have a buyer negotiating to buy the resort; remain closed for the ski season and install a lift next summer. 
3. We have two potential buyers looking at operating status quo for the winter. Improvements would begin next summer. 
4. We are also discussing a leasing option.
The Berry Family is evaluating all options with the goal of a sustainable future for Saddleback.
We appreciate the outpouring of support from our community and customers – this is a tough time for all of us. We understand the frustration about the unpredictability of the future and not being able to make winter plans. We assure you we are doing everything in our power to resolve these questions as soon as possible.


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## St. Bear (Sep 2, 2015)

Closing for a year doesn't make any sense. The very definition of cutting off one's nose to spite your face.


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## Jully (Sep 2, 2015)

^agreed. If they close for a year I think without a doubt they'd lose a chunck of pass holders the next opening season. Seems like a no brainer to at least operate status quo... Even if on a reduced schedule or something to not lose loads of money.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2015)

The thought of closing to me suggests some family infighting over not wanting to see more of their fortune whittle away.   

To be honest, I would have thrown in the towel long before the tab hit $40M.   Yes, I'm aware they probably made some of that back in real estate sales, but not likely much of it.


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## soposkier (Sep 2, 2015)

Curious if they do not open what effect it would have on Sugarloaf weekend crowds.


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## Jully (Sep 2, 2015)

I feel like more SB skiers would go to SL compared to SR so probably a noticeable impact I bet. Maybe some families would go to Shawnee Peak too.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2015)

Budget SB skiers might migrate to BMOM


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## salsgang (Sep 3, 2015)

We would probably make either Black or Mt. Abram our home mountain, with some trips to Sugarloaf. I think it would be spread around but Sugarloaf would definitely see an uptick. They may see an uptick in demand anyway due to the current uncertainty and people starting to make holiday week plans.


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## ironhippy (Sep 3, 2015)

something similar is happening with my local hill.

The owners announced in March that they would not be opening next season (2015/16) and are selling the hill. A group of local buyers came together, had a town hall meeting and were talking about forming a co-op. This all took place in March.

Since then, we've heard nothing. The unofficial word (from employees and people involved in the sale) is that the hill will be open and it's definitely happening, but as of now there are no tickets on sale and no maintenance has been done to the hill since last April.


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## xwhaler (Sep 3, 2015)

I wonder who the buyer would be that would allow them to get a new lift in this season at this stage? Guessing someone with deep pockets and well connected to really get an aggressive timeline.
They should run as is this yr and make sure they get the right buyer---if multiple parties are involved that will help on the bidding war.

Leasing the ski area operations seems like a bad idea--maybe for someplace with lots of ancillary revenue beyond the skiing but Saddleback is really just the ski hill, condos, and food/beverage in the lodge.     Not sure leasing would be all that profitable for the person running it?

I'm sure that appeals to the family though so they can maintain ownership of all the land they own.


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## snoseek (Sep 3, 2015)

Right? Even assuming a deal closed tomorrow how could it be possible to order ship and install a new lift in time for winter?


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2015)

snoseek said:


> Right? Even assuming a deal closed tomorrow how could it be possible to order ship and install a new lift in time for winter?


A used lift would do it.  They may all ready have the plan too.


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## BackLoafRiver (Sep 3, 2015)

soposkier said:


> Curious if they do not open what effect it would have on Sugarloaf weekend crowds.



I'm in agreement with the current thinking; Sugarloaf will see an increase for sure but budget-minded families will take their business to either Black or Shawnee.


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## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2015)

A little late to put a lift in... unless used one lined up or Skytrac has one built already and for sale. LP and Dopplemeyer already doing installs on east coast.


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## catsup948 (Sep 3, 2015)

Vail, KSL Capital, Intrawest.  Lets get the big boys in here.  They probably have warehouses full of chairlifts!


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## tipsdown (Sep 3, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> Vail, KSL Capital, Intrawest.  Lets get the big boys in here.  They probably have warehouses full of chairlifts!



The big boys like potential....Here's what they would be after. 5400 acres....Ripe for ski expansion and real estate development.  Saddleback Lake and a couple of 4000 ft. peaks included....

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/new-england/tbd-saddleback-mountain-rd/pid_5225329/
http://www.berkshirehathawayhs.com/...ack-Mt-Road-Sandy-River-Plt-ME-4970-131051160


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> The big boys like potential....Here's what they would be after. 5400 acres....Ripe for ski expansion and real estate development.  Saddleback Lake and a couple of 4000 ft. peaks included....
> 
> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/new-england/tbd-saddleback-mountain-rd/pid_5225329/
> http://www.berkshirehathawayhs.com/...ack-Mt-Road-Sandy-River-Plt-ME-4970-131051160



Infrastructure wise, there is a LOT of potential.  But it's 4.5 hours from Boston and prohibitively far from the New York metropolitan area.  It's even over four hours from Montreal.  And even if it was close, the Canadian dollar is in the gutter and Canada is now officially in a recession.

I suppose it can be done, but it will not be easy.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Infrastructure wise, there is a LOT of potential.  But it's 4.5 hours from Boston and prohibitively far from the New York metropolitan area.  It's even over four hours from Montreal.  And even if it was close, the Canadian dollar is in the gutter and Canada is now officially in a recession.
> 
> I suppose it can be done, but it will not be easy.



I wouldn't necessarily say prohibitively far from the NYC metro area.  How do you think Tremblant has gotten to be #1 on all those dumb surveys?  College kids from the NY/NJ/PA areas.  I haven't skied SB, but assume the terrain has to be better than Tremblant (which I have skied).  Intrawest could make it work.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> I wouldn't necessarily say prohibitively far from the NYC metro area.  How do you think Tremblant has gotten to be #1 on all those dumb surveys?  College kids from the NY/NJ/PA areas.  I haven't skied SB, but assume the terrain has to be better than Tremblant (which I have skied).  Intrawest could make it work.


That is easily explained by the drinking age.  Saddleback will not be their destination of choice.  Trust me.


----------



## danimals (Sep 3, 2015)

I'm from south jersey, basically philly, and saddleback has always been on my radar. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

danimals said:


> I'm from south jersey, basically philly, and saddleback has always been on my radar.


The fact that you haven't been yet demonstrates my point.


----------



## tipsdown (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree....It's location is it's biggest blessing and it's biggest curse.  Having said that I believe it can work under the right owner.  You have to make the place special for people to make the longer commute.  All the raw elements are there (arguably more so than anywhere else in the East), but the build out needs to be there. I think it has to be a big player like mentioned above...A clear vision, deep pockets, high ski business acumen and fortitude are a must!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> Vail, KSL Capital, Intrawest.  Lets get the big boys in here.  They probably have warehouses full of chairlifts!



KSL Capital is not doing a great job at Squaw Valley FWIW.  A lot of folks not happy with them.  

Vail: they are on a roll.  

Intrawest: I doubt it.  They have had financial issues.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> KSL Capital is not doing a great job at Squaw Valley FWIW.  A lot of folks not happy with them.
> 
> Vail: they are on a roll.
> 
> Intrawest: I doubt it.  They have had financial issues.


If I won the lottery. I would buy it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> If I won the lottery. I would buy it.



For real?

If anything I think the current owners are a good case study of how to blow the family fortune in the ski business.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That is easily explained by the drinking age.  Saddleback will not be their destination of choice.  Trust me.



This is true, however Tremblant Village also appeals to the non-skiers with its shopping, dining and casino.  I know quite a few who have gone, and would go back with their skier friends, for those amenities alone (not to mention snowmobiling).


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> This is true, however Tremblant Village also appeals to the non-skiers with its shopping, dining and casino.  I know quite a few who have gone, and would go back with their skier friends, for those amenities alone (not to mention snowmobiling).



+ 1.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> For real?
> 
> If anything I think the current owners are a good case study of how to blow the family fortune in the ski business.


Yes, I would buy it.  What is the Berry Family net worth?  I was talking Powerball money


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Yes, I would buy it.  What is the Berry Family net worth?  I was talking Powerball money



Well, they did say they've invested $40M of their own money.  It looks like they're trying to get maybe a third of it back.  That to me sounds like a disastrous financial gamble on their part.  

I looked up Powerball for Saturday.   Take home after taxes would be about $50M.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> This is true, however Tremblant Village also appeals to the non-skiers with its shopping, dining and casino.  I know quite a few who have gone, and would go back with their skier friends, for those amenities alone (not to mention snowmobiling).


I agree, but you were talking about the college crowd.  If they can go to a place with shopping, dining, gambling, nightlife AND a drinking age of 18, guess where those college kids are going.


----------



## Jully (Sep 3, 2015)

I don't know if I'd want to see a K or Stowe template imposed on SB, never mind if it would be successful or not. SB is currently pretty different from it's competitors and I'd like to see someone capitalize on those differences, specifically a focus on non-"urbanite" off hill outdoors activity.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 3, 2015)

danimals said:


> I'm from south jersey, basically philly, and saddleback has always been on my radar.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





VTKilarney said:


> The fact that you haven't been yet demonstrates my point.


I'm from NYC & been there at least a 1/2 dozen times. The difference between going to SB, SL or SR for me is that it has to be for longer than a weekend. While I can leave my house early in the morning & be on the slopes by 9am in VT. the same can't be said for ME. resorts unless of course I drive through the night. Realisticly for me to get to ME. I'm wasting two days traveling. When I did go it was for a minimum of 5 days & most times longer. Same can be said for QC.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I'm from NYC & been there at least a 1/2 dozen times. The difference between going to SB, SL or SR for me is that it has to be for longer than a weekend. While I can leave my house early in the morning & be on the slopes by 9am in VT. the same can't be said for ME. resorts unless of course I drive through the night. Realisticly for me to get to ME. I'm wasting two days traveling. When I did go it was for a minimum of 5 days & most times longer. Same can be said for QC.



My bad.  I thought that your statement implied that you had never been.  But the fact that you concede that it is not worth a weekend trip would rule out a LOT of skiers.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 3, 2015)

danimals said:


> I'm from south jersey, basically philly, and saddleback has always been on my radar.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





VTKilarney said:


> The fact that you haven't been yet demonstrates my point.





VTKilarney said:


> My bad.  I thought that your statement implied that you had never been.  But the fact that you concede that it is not worth a weekend trip would rule out a LOT of skiers.


You're talking to the wrong guy.:smile: I was just giving an example that they do draw some people from my area.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> You're talking to the wrong guy.:smile:


Whoops!  Thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## WWF-VT (Sep 3, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> I agree....It's location is it's biggest blessing and it's biggest curse.  Having said that I believe it can work under the right owner.  You have to make the place special for people to make the longer commute.  All the raw elements are there (arguably more so than anywhere else in the East), but the build out needs to be there. I think it has to be a big player like mentioned above...A clear vision, deep pockets, high ski business acumen and fortitude are a must!



It's never gonna happen at Saddleback you can also add in Les Otten's pipe dream at the Balsams.  They are just too far from the Boston metro area and competing against many more established areas in VT, NH and ME.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2015)

The one difference is that the Balsams Resort is 3 hours from Montreal whereas Saddleback is about 4.25 hours.  But with the Canadian dollar being in the gutter, this may be a largely academic point.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 3, 2015)

I wish all the Mass holes would flock up there. Would make the rest of New England a much nicer place.


----------



## Winterstick (Sep 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I wish all the Mass holes would flock up there. Would make the rest of New England a much nicer place.



Agreed.  Just like keeping all the NY/NJ/CT trash at Kmart and Mt. Slow.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 3, 2015)

Winterstick said:


> Agreed.  Just like keeping all the NY/NJ/CT trash at Kmart and Mt. Slow.



But I've been told I don't like my own kind. Think it was a Mass hole who said it.


----------



## prsboogie (Sep 4, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I wish all the Mass holes would flock up there. Would make the rest of New England a much nicer place.



Funny, it was all the NY/NJ attitude and entitlement that I hated at Stratton. The place is great for kids learning but, jeez you would think heads would explode if someone said thank you to workers or excuse me when they push past you and your 6/8 year olds trying to get in the lodge. Or knocking my 6 year old over as one flies by clipping her leg. Almost got arrested on that one!

And yes I do know a NY/NJ a-holes sound like. 

Shouldn't really lump geographic areas together because there is plenty of shitty people from everywhere!


----------



## Rushski (Sep 4, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> Funny, it was all the NY/NJ attitude and entitlement that I hated at Stratton.
> And yes I do know a NY/NJ a-holes sound like.



Agreed wholeheartedly.  For three seasons had the Sunapee-Okemo-Flatton pass.  Dreaded the tram rides with the strangers who were either working on their cell phones or complaining about NOT being out West, when thy probably were mediocre skiers.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> And yes I do know a NY/NJ a-holes sound like



The latter should be referred to as J-holes


----------



## prsboogie (Sep 4, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> The latter should be referred to as J-holes



I like that Jhole!!


----------



## Brad J (Sep 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I wish all the Mass holes would flock up there. Would make the rest of New England a much nicer place.



Really, your kidding right?????


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 5, 2015)

Brad J said:


> Really, your kidding right?????


No, they ski like they drive.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...-data-shows/8XtYYLZof95SvSckwJZt1I/story.html


----------



## prsboogie (Sep 5, 2015)

Love to know how many accidents are avoiding D-bags with out of state plates, gotta tell ya I've been cutoff by more yellow plates than anyone.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 5, 2015)

NYC doesn't even make the top 20 on that list.


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## Smellytele (Sep 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> NYC doesn't even make the top 20 on that list.



Because half of them don't even have licenses.


----------



## benski (Sep 5, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Because half of them don't even have licenses.



this study is based on cars insured with all-state. Since none of the people without licenses have car insurance they could not be counted in the study.


----------



## xwhaler (Sep 5, 2015)

Back to Saddleback discussion.  Mountain is still there looking glorious and Rangeley still standing with chairs on as of this afternoon


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 5, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Back to Saddleback discussion.  Mountain is still there looking glorious and Rangeley still standing with chairs on as of this afternoon


Nice segue!


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 5, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Because half of them don't even have licenses.





benski said:


> this study is based on cars insured with all-state. Since none of the people without licenses have car insurance they could not be counted in the study.


*What’s my state’s uninsured motorist percentage?*



Mississippi: 28%
New Mexico: 26%
Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Florida: 24%
Alabama: 22%
Michigan: 19%
Kentucky and Rhode Island: 18%
Indiana, Washington, Arkansas, Ohio, and Georgia: 16%
Washington D.C., Colorado, California, Maryland, Texas, and Wisconsin: 15%
Missouri and North Carolina: 14%
Nevada, Minnesota, Alaska, and Louisiana: 13%
Arizona: 12%
Iowa, Montana, Hawaii, New Jersey, New Hampshire, West Virginia, Virginia, Delaware, and South Carolina: 11%
Wyoming, Oregon, Kansas, and Connecticut: 10%
North Dakota and South Dakota: 9%
Utah, Idaho, and Nebraska: 8%
Vermont and Pennsylvania: 7%
New York: 5%
Maine and Massachusetts: 4%


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 5, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Back to Saddleback discussion.  Mountain is still there looking glorious and Rangeley still standing with chairs on as of this afternoon


Really hoping they keep the place going.


----------



## sull1102 (Sep 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> *what’s my state’s uninsured motorist percentage?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



go away


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> *What’s my state’s uninsured motorist percentage?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where were you going with this? As far as NH goes they don't have to have insurance surprised they only have 11% not having insurance.


----------



## Dickc (Sep 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> *What’s my state’s uninsured motorist percentage?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Illinois is missing from that list.  Are we to ASSUME that all of those are insured?


----------



## vonski (Sep 6, 2015)

Dickc said:


> Illinois is missing from that list.  Are we to ASSUME that all of those are insured?



Obama has them covered since Washington D.C is included!


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Sep 6, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Back to Saddleback discussion.  Mountain is still there looking glorious and Rangeley still standing with chairs on as of this afternoon



That's the Sandy lift, not Rangeley.


----------



## xwhaler (Sep 6, 2015)

crystalmountainskier said:


> That's the Sandy lift, not Rangeley.



Yep!  Didn't walk quite over to the Rangeley after our hike up to Rock and Midway Ponds


----------



## tipsdown (Sep 16, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Peaks!
> Peaks!
> Peaks!
> 
> ...



If you were on the Peak's earnings call last week (or read the transcript) you can't help but think they may be buying Saddleback.....



They made itclear they want to add exposure in the North East

Regarding M&Aactivity, they expect to have news on an acquisition sometime “this fall”

 It’s NOT Magic

Peaks is alreadyinvolved in the EB-5 program and Saddleback has an investment center set up…


----------



## salsgang (Sep 16, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> If you were on the Peak's earnings call last week (or read the transcript) you can't help but think they may be buying Saddleback.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



NIce digging - SB would be a good fit to their portfolio - this could be a good outcome.


----------



## bigbog (Sep 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Infrastructure wise, there is a LOT of potential.  But it's 4.5 hours from Boston and prohibitively far from the New York metropolitan area.  It's even over four hours from Montreal.  And even if it was close, the Canadian dollar is in the gutter and Canada is now officially in a recession.
> 
> I suppose it can be done, but it will not be easy.



Diehard skiers do what it takes, regardless of the economy..
..and you have to remember, most people from the Montreal area don't visit Maine anyways, it's mostly NB, QC and rural Quebec...which brings, imho, more than a few skiers.  SB will never get as many skiers as the big VT resorts...so whoever buys should(imho) forget all the additives that bump up expenditures, that have _nothing_ to do with skiing, that urbanites and suburbanites who need to drive a $40k+, whine about.  Deep pockets can rebuild, maintain and keep prices lower than VT and NH.  I don't think any recession ever stopped skier traffic.... Canadians have been driving really fuel-efficient cars, compact in size...all over Quebec and NB, except for trucks...and still they choose the better mpg of the trucks...ie they spend much less on cars than the high-value cars of Americans, who can afford them, but often try to be the spenders on the most costly items.. Not nearly as much high-value advertising on anything, on canadian television..  It should be interesting to see who bites..  Any building could use the vertical space for lodging and parking while taking up very little acreage, but they don't....a Huge mistake imho.  Would be nice to see some creative design go into it without cutting and clearing out half the woods around the area.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 16, 2015)

I'd be shocked if Peaks bought Saddleback.  They specialize in the high-volume market.  Mount Snow and their midwest resorts are proof of that.  With Wildcat and Attitash being the exceptions, it's no wonder why no money ever flows their way.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2015)

Crotched isn't high volume either


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> If you were on the Peak's earnings call last week (or read the transcript) you can't help but think they may be buying Saddleback.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## tipsdown (Sep 16, 2015)

ss20 said:


> I'd be shocked if Peaks bought Saddleback.  They specialize in the high-volume market.  Mount Snow and their midwest resorts are proof of that.  With Wildcat and Attitash being the exceptions, it's no wonder why no money ever flows their way.



Read the earnings transcript. You may change your mind. Their most recent aquisitions are Attitash and Wilcat and they made a point to emphasize that they want to expand the day AND overnight skier i.e. Destination resort..


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## EPB (Sep 16, 2015)

No. Weekend resort. They've made that very clear in their marketing material.


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## EPB (Sep 16, 2015)

This presentation from last year does a pretty good job of laying it out. 


```
http://ir.peakresorts.com/Cache/1500066621.PDF?Y=&O=PDF&D=&FID=1500066621&T=&IID=4110528
```

It's difficult to know if Peak wold view Saddleback as a fit. Classically, they're a local hill operator, but even the places they've purchased in the northeast have been proven (Mount Snow/MWV) or are about as close to Boston for its size (Crotched). While Saddleback probably wouldn't be a true "fly-to," it's a tough place to make a weekend out of.


----------



## Jully (Sep 16, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> Read the earnings transcript. You may change your mind. Their most recent aquisitions are Attitash and Wilcat and they made a point to emphasize that they want to expand the day AND overnight skier i.e. Destination resort..



Peaks has been having a tough enough time with their IPO I thought. Why would they buy a mountain that had millions of dollars of improvements put in over the past 10 years, but is STILL losing money every year? The Berryb family is in no way a poor ski resort operator.

I'd still be stoked if peaks bought SB though.


----------



## Quietman (Sep 16, 2015)

I thought that Wildcat was a gamble for Peaks, but the investment in snowmaking last year was impressive.  Still can't believe that Wildcat has only 80-90k skier visits per year, but that is what Saddleback apparently also averages. Overall, I don't see it as a wise investment for Peaks, but it is probably very tempting depending on the price.


----------



## EPB (Sep 16, 2015)

The nice part about Wildcat is that they can cut costs late and early season by opening only the cat. They can run one lift and a small lodge up there and never worry about opening Attitash in warmer early season weather or worry about stockpiling snow at Attitash to last into April.


----------



## fiddleski (Sep 17, 2015)

Update on Saddleback FB  yesterday:

Saddlebackers
Latest Update: At this point putting in a lift for this season is off the table. The options we are still pursuing are as follows:
1. 4 separate buyers looking at purchasing the resort and operating this season with the current lift configuration.
2. 1 buyer looking to purchase the resort in the spring
3. A limited operation for the 2015-2016 season if option 1 doesn’t materialize.
Our goal is to have a clear future by the first week in October, so that if none of the operational options pan out we can allow our customers to look at other options for the 2015-2016 season.

And then, maybe most informative:

For the record: All of the land is open and available for purchase. The MLS listing shows the land with 2,070 acres available which is a lion share of the development. At least one buyer isn't interested in the real estate only operating the resort. There is flexibility as to how many acres can be purchased from 723 to the whole 6,337 depending on the price the buyer is willing to pay. There is also a separate listing of land only of 3,294 acres offered as timberland


----------



## Jully (Sep 17, 2015)

fiddleski said:


> Update on Saddleback FB  yesterday:
> 
> Saddlebackers
> Latest Update: At this point putting in a lift for this season is off the table. The options we are still pursuing are as follows:
> ...



Dang. This is really happening


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 17, 2015)

I don't understand why a limited operating is in the cards if buyers are on the table...


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 17, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I don't understand why a limited operating is in the cards if buyers are on the table...



2. 1 buyer looking to purchase the resort in the spring


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 17, 2015)

I saw that, but wouldn't partial operations devalue the asset that is being sold?


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 17, 2015)

No - especially not if a P&S is signed in the fall with a sale in the spring.


----------



## Masskier (Oct 5, 2015)

Any update on this?


----------



## Jully (Oct 5, 2015)

Sometime this week!


----------



## wa-loaf (Oct 8, 2015)

They just posted this on facebook:

We are in the midst of serious negotiations with a buyer that plans to  open for the winter-hope to be up and running soon.  Keep you posted  next week!!!!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 9, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> They just posted this on facebook:
> 
> We are in the midst of serious negotiations with a buyer that plans to  open for the winter-hope to be up and running soon.  Keep you posted  next week!!!!



Be good to finally hear something positive.


----------



## prsboogie (Oct 22, 2015)

Bump - pure gossip from a condo owner I am friends with but when I mentioned the rumors about regarding Peaks, she said the group that has been seen around a foreigners with alleged "deep pockets" and show up to the meetings in a private helicopter. Take it for what it's worth as she isn't on any boards but has a very vested interest in the season opening since she has a slope side condo.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2015)

So are they going to open this year?


----------



## joshua segal (Oct 22, 2015)

Negotiations continue.  Condo owners know more then they are telling. I remain amazed by their united front in not spilling the beans.


----------



## yeggous (Oct 22, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Negotiations continue.  Condo owners know more then they are telling. I remain amazed by their united front in not spilling the beans.



How can they possibly know and kept the secret this well? How many condo owners are there? This is not something that can scale well.


----------



## prsboogie (Oct 22, 2015)

She is very optimistic that they will open but there are no guarantees. I haven't asked her how many own but when I see her I will ask. She has owned there for nearly 20 years so she knows a few people around


----------



## joshua segal (Oct 22, 2015)

yeggous said:


> How can they possibly know and kept the secret this well? How many condo owners are there? This is not something that can scale well.



I can't fathom it either.  I believe I saw the number 210 bandied around somewhere for the number of condos.  There must be a rat somewhere in the bunch!


----------



## yeggous (Nov 9, 2015)

Bump. Its November 9 and still no news. The Boston ski expo is this weekend and they are not on the exhibitor list. Somebody stick a fork in them.


----------



## Rikka (Nov 9, 2015)

I was thinking the same thing today. I went to the saddleback patrollers FB page and it seems pretty glum there.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2015)

So........

?


----------



## yeggous (Nov 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So........
> 
> ?



Exactly.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Exactly.



This is what their site says:



> WE WILL UPDATE
> 
> AS WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION



Any locals that can fill us in?  Any activity to get the place ready for the ski season?  Buehler?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Any activity to get the place ready for the ski season?  Buehler?



http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=90581C7CA1B282C9719A90581C7CA1B282C9719A


----------



## salsgang (Nov 10, 2015)

The fact that they have still not definitively announced anything makes me think some type of transaction is still in the works. Not sure if 2015-16 ski season is still in the cards however. Doesn't seem like it can go on much longer.


----------



## DJAK (Nov 10, 2015)

The best uphill skiing in the east this winter, perhaps. Actually a very unique opportunity for some of us.


----------



## moguler6 (Nov 11, 2015)

Could be a good season for that Heli-Bear heli ski operation if the lifts don't turn. Lol


----------



## jimk (Nov 11, 2015)

DJAK said:


> The best uphill skiing in the east this winter, perhaps. Actually a very unique opportunity for some of us.



Wouldn't it be wild if the place doesn't open to schedule a sort of flash mob of hike-to skiers one day and put hundreds of them on the mtn at same time, take photos and go viral with it over the net about how great the snow and terrain is.  
Casablanca


----------



## dlague (Nov 11, 2015)

jimk said:


> Wouldn't it be wild if the place doesn't open to schedule a sort of flash mob of hike-to skiers one day and put hundreds of them on the mtn at same time, take photos and go viral with it over the net about how great the snow and terrain is.
> Casablanca



Nice idea but that is a haul for that purpose.


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----------



## bigbog (Nov 11, 2015)

jimk said:


> Wouldn't it be wild if the place doesn't open to schedule a sort of flash mob of hike-to skiers one day and put hundreds of them on the mtn at same time, take photos and go viral with it over the net about how great the snow and terrain is. ....



it _will_ be interesting to see.....


----------



## Terry (Nov 12, 2015)

Got an email from Shawnee Peak that anyone with a valid seasons pass to Saddleback this year can buy an unlimited seasons pass to Shawnee for just $150. If Saddleback doesn't open at least they can get some use out of the pass.


----------



## dlague (Nov 12, 2015)

Terry said:


> Got an email from Shawnee Peak that anyone with a valid seasons pass to Saddleback this year can buy an unlimited seasons pass to Shawnee for just $150. If Saddleback doesn't open at least they can get some use out of the pass.



Well if you generally ski Saddleback because of the expert terrain and glades then skiing Shawnee is a bit of a let down if Saddleback does not open.  Nice of them to go after that market.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## oldtimer (Nov 12, 2015)

wouldn't it be a great gesture if the Loaf did the same thing?  the marginal cost to them for the passes is very small and the potential for future benefit is big.


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## joshua segal (Nov 12, 2015)

dlague said:


> Well if you generally ski Saddleback because of the expert terrain and glades then skiing Shawnee is a bit of a let down if Saddleback does not open.  Nice of them to go after that market.



There are a lot of Saddleback skiers who love the long and well groomed cruisers off of the Rangeley.  I would consider Shawnee's action  to be both a good marketing idea as well as a nice gesture to the "high-and-dry" Saddleback skiers.  

I suspect those who loved the gnarly woods will go to SL or SR.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 12, 2015)

Wouldn't Saddleback skiers be getting a refund if the mountain doesn't open?


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## xwhaler (Nov 12, 2015)

If I were a passholder at SB and owned 2nd home up there (my dream eventually) I would be looking at a BMOM pass personally.
SL vibe/terrain is so different than SB I could see how core SB skiers wouldn't want to go for that. BMOM has some great tree skiing and nice groomers at a very attractive price point.
Perhaps a SL midweek pass + a BMOM pass is what I would do.


----------



## xwhaler (Nov 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Wouldn't Saddleback skiers be getting a refund if the mountain doesn't open?



Yes, but I think what the other mtns are trying to do is make sure SB skiers are not forced to pay full pricing on an alternate pass now that early season pass pricing has expired. I read this on some back-channel communications I follow.
Though the Shawnee $150 doesn't really fit that.


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## joshua segal (Nov 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Wouldn't Saddleback skiers be getting a refund if the mountain doesn't open?



That's the official "up front" statement.  Based on similar situations in the past, I wouldn't count the money until it's is back in my pocket!  Those who charged the tickets on major credit cards will most likely be able to get their money back from the credit card company.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 12, 2015)

I can't find any mention of this offer on their website or their FB page.Was this e-mail only sent to new SB passholders?


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## xwhaler (Nov 12, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I can't find any mention of this offer on their website or their FB page.Was this e-mail only sent to new SB passholders?



https://store.shawneepeak.com/products/detail/view/210


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 12, 2015)

Thatnks for that.So I'm wondering if the pass is still good if season pass holders get their money back.If so then thats one hell of a deal and I wouldn't be too happy if I already paid full price for my Shawnee pass.


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## prsboogie (Nov 12, 2015)

Talked to my friend today and she was told its "foreigners" who do not want to be known until everything is final. Her contact is "convinced" they are opening this season even if they have a management company open it up for the year.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 12, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> "foreigners" who do not want to be known until everything is final.



Since they don't want to announce anything, seems like NOTHING is going to happen there this winter. It's almost November 15th for crying out loud. The Berry's don't want to announce ANYTHING even remotely positive to the general public?? I call BS on it... hopefully I'm wrong.

The lack of winter showing up any time soon isn't helping their cause at all...


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## mbedle (Nov 12, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> Talked to my friend today and she was told its "foreigners" who do not want to be known until everything is final. Her contact is "convinced" they are opening this season even if they have a management company open it up for the year.



Not at the poster, but wow - God forbid some "Foreigners" buy the place. Next they might have Muslims selling lift tickets and prayer meetings on the middle of the slops, hell they might start selling sushi in the lodge.  This info is too much for me t handle. I need a safe place now..


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Not at the poster, but wow - God forbid some "Foreigners" buy the place. Next they might have Muslims selling lift tickets and prayer meetings on the middle of the slops, hell they might start selling sushi in the lodge.  This info is too much for me t handle. I need a safe place now..



Well Foreigners have bank rolled Jay and Burke but own nothing but a green card


----------



## prsboogie (Nov 12, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Not at the poster, but wow - God forbid some "Foreigners" buy the place. Next they might have Muslims selling lift tickets and prayer meetings on the middle of the slops, hell they might start selling sushi in the lodge.  This info is too much for me t handle. I need a safe place now..



The point is they know nothing about who or where they are from, it is being told to her that they have deep pockets and don't want to be known until THEY tell everyone they are the new buyers. Probably in case they can't make the deal work they don't want to be harassed (my speculation)


----------



## prsboogie (Nov 12, 2015)

Honestly I couldn't give two shits where  their from. I know I'll not be skiing there anytime soon, just hate to see her paying condo fees on a slopeside condo that won't be used I'd they don't open.


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## ss20 (Nov 12, 2015)

Sounds pretty impossible to me.  Last year Thunder Ridge barely opened when new management was installed mid-September.  Hopefully I'm wrong.


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## Jully (Nov 13, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Not at the poster, but wow - God forbid some "Foreigners" buy the place. Next they might have Muslims selling lift tickets and prayer meetings on the middle of the slops, hell they might start selling sushi in the lodge.  This info is too much for me t handle. I need a safe place now..



Wait, what?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2015)

+1


----------



## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

*What the heck is going on at Saddleback*

I know the Berrys (do I have that name right?) are trying to sell.    SB wasn't at the Ski Expo this weekend.  Their web site is in hibernation. Not a FB post in 30 days, not a twit since September.


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

WOW. Just WOW!!!!


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> WOW. Just WOW!!!!


Sarcasm?


----------



## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

[h=1]New Saddleback lift unlikely for 2015-16 ski season[/h] 				 				 					Posted by Ben Hanstein  • September 24, 2015  •  					 				


RANGELEY - Saddleback Mountain is looking to establish a "clear  future" by the first week in October, after indicating that it would not  be possible to install a new four-person chairlift prior to the 2015-16  ski season.


 According to a statement posted to the company's Facebook page on  Sept. 16, putting in a new lift for this incoming season was "off the  table." Saddleback Mountain is continuing to pursue three other options.  These include discussions with four, separate buyers looking to operate  the resort this season, a fifth buyer looking to purchase the resort in  the spring, and a "limited operation" for the 2015-16 ski season.


 "Our goal is to have a clear future by the first week in October,"  the statement reads, "so that if none of the operational options pan out  we can allow our customers to look at other options for the 2015-2016  season."


 The ski mountain, the third largest in the state and an employer for  up to 300 people during peak winter season, previously announced that it  would be unable to open for ski operations this year unless it secured  $3 million in financing to purchase a new four-person chairlift. That  lift would replace a 51-year-old double chair that provides access to  the top of Saddleback Mountain.


 The Berry family purchased the ski area in 2004, leading to several  years of rapid growth and expansion. In 2004, Saddleback employed 66  people and drew about 15,000 skiers annually. In 2012 the family  reported Saddleback employed more than 225 people during peak winter  season, and by then they had added $40 million in infrastructure  improvements, drawing as many as 100,000 visitors annually.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

To refresh your memory:

Maine 
   	[h=1]Owner: Saddleback Mountain Needs a New Chairlift or It Will Close[/h]  			[h=2]The family-owned ski resort needs $3 million to upgrade the old lift.[/h] 	 	 		 							By Garrett Quinn				| 						Boston Daily			| 		 		July 22, 2015, 12:31 p.m.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

I emailed their info address.
I received this auto-reply message:

Thank you for contacting Saddleback

Any update on the resort will be posted on our website or Facebook page

If you have interest in booking a condo for the upcoming ski season. We  have not made those available online but you can use our request form  and we will notify you when are taking bookings

http://www.saddlebackmaine.com/condo-rental-request



We will update current season pass holders as soon as we have an update  on whether or not we are opening for the season.  Thank you for your  patience


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

AP | 10.11.15 | 2:15 PM
              			RANGELEY, Maine (AP) — Operators of Maine’s Saddleback ski mountain say they may have an announcement this week.
  Operators of the ski mountain in Rangeley  announced via social media that they’re in ‘‘serious negotiations’’ with  a potential buyer who plans to open the resort for the winter.
    Owner Mark Berry said previously that the  resort would close if it could not replace a 51-year-old double  chairlift with a faster, modern four-person lift. Since then there have  been discussions with several buyers.
 The resort, most of its 121 condominiums  and 400 acres were put on the market in 2012 for $14 million. It’s  currently for sale for $9.5 million with 2,070 acres.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Just called.  Went into voice mail tree hell.  pressed various options, no answer.   Feeling like an RIP operation.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Called their Chamber of Commerce.  They have no information, just what we have heard, "it's in negotiations, and we expect [hope?] they will open.   Could be a blow to the economy unless they can amp up their snowmachine business.


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## dlague (Nov 16, 2015)

I hear rumors at the ski show that the deal is about done.  I also heard that they probably would have a late December or early January opening.  In addition, lots of the winter staff are hanging in there.


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> Sarcasm?


Been talking about this since July.  See this thread along with others.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/137009-Saddleback?highlight=saddleback

You need to come out of your rock more than once a year.


----------



## dlague (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Been talking about this since July.  See this thread along with others.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/137009-Saddleback?highlight=saddleback
> 
> You need to come out of your rock more than once a year.



HAHAHAHAHA!  Good one Puck it - Did not even notice a new thread was started. Moderators, can this be merged with he original?


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## wa-loaf (Nov 16, 2015)

A mod should just merge this with the original thread.


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## dlague (Nov 16, 2015)

dlague said:


> HAHAHAHAHA!  Good one Puck it - Did not even notice a new thread was started. *Moderators, can this be merged with he original?*





wa-loaf said:


> A mod should just merge this with the original thread.



great point!


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

dlague said:


> HAHAHAHAHA!  Good one Puck it - Did not even notice a new thread was started. Moderators, can this be merged with he original?


The guy has been under a rock for 8 months.


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## dlague (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> The guy has been under a rock for 8 months.



That is a friggin' riot!


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

Hey, Bill


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

dlague said:


> I hear rumors at the ski show that the deal is about done.  I also heard that they probably would have a late December or early January opening.  In addition, lots of the winter staff are hanging in there.


On epicski, one correspondent said he talked with a condo owner 2 weeks ago.  According to him there are only 4 employees remaining and the locals are lining up other work for the season.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Hey, Bill


I'm there!


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> I'm there!



You don't want to be Ned


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> The guy has been under a rock for 8 months.


  LOL!  Not in the business, getting back in synch, just like 99% of the rest of the customers.  Nothing wrong with that, it's a conversation!


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> I'm there!


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> You don't want to be Ned


  Ned is still at 265 Franklin street.


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> LOL!  Not in the business, getting back in *sync*, just like 99% of the rest of the customers.  Nothing wrong with that, it's a conversation!


You are restating 80% of what has been said all ready. Fixed your spelling too.


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> You are restating 80% of what has been said all ready. Fixed your spelling too.


 So what?


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## billski (Nov 16, 2015)

Puck it said:


> You are restating 80% of what has been said all ready. Fixed your spelling too.


No spelling error.  Either one is acceptable.  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sync


----------



## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> No spelling error.  Either one is acceptable.  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sync


 I have never seen it like that must.  Must be English.  Lol.


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## Puck it (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> So what?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> [h=1]New Saddleback lift unlikely for 2015-16 ski season[/h] 				 				 					Posted by Ben Hanstein  • September 24, 2015  •
> 
> 
> RANGELEY - Saddleback Mountain is looking to establish a "clear  future" by the first week in October, after indicating that it would not  be possible to install a new four-person chairlift prior to the 2015-16  ski season.
> ...



100k skier days?  Probably less based upon that PR.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

billski said:


> Ned is still at 265 Franklin street.



He is actually at 245 Summer


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 18, 2015)

No revelations but an article from Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/skiing.../llAmtmAWX3xWEC53FNyoRK/story.html?p1=stream_


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> No revelations but an article from Boston Globe:
> 
> http://www.boston.com/sports/skiing.../llAmtmAWX3xWEC53FNyoRK/story.html?p1=stream_



That GM is in a really bad spot having to keep explaining or not explaining why they are not open.  This is a worst place for season pass holders, homeowners, and employees than if they just decided not to open this season.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 18, 2015)

I claimed bullsh!t when the first announcement was made about not opening unless a lift was replaced.I said it was some kind of leverage move.This statement by Farmer says it all.


According to Farmer, the push for a new lift came as a means to better serve growing crowds at the resort, not because of safety concerns attached to the 51-year-old chairlift. 


“We’re a victim of our own success,” he told SKI magazine in July. “Our days are too busy, and there’s not enough capacity to get skiers out of the base area and up the mountain. For the sake of the long-term sustainability of this resort, we need to replace that lift.” According to Farmer, the push for a new lift came as a means to better serve growing crowds at the resort, not because of safety concerns attached to the 51-year-old chairlift. 

What?thats a Yogi Berra "nobody goes there anymore cuz its too crowded" type statement.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> I just heard about this today when I was at Sunday River, talking with some friends. Not sure this has been covered or not, 35 pages. Boyne looked into buying Saddleback, but there are some monopoly laws if Boyne owned the 3 largest resorts in the state in play. I'm not sure what all come into play, but a New England pass including Saddleback would real good right now. Doesn't sound like it will happen though....



I would not be surprised if this happened.  Last year Brighton (Boyne) wanted to buy Solitude and was about to but could not get the money at the last minute.  So they are interested in expanding.  Having Saddleback makes sense--it gives them four resorts fairly close together (Loon, SR, SB, SB).  But yes that would give them a large share of the Maine ski market.


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## EPB (Nov 18, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> I just heard about this today when I was at Sunday River, talking with some friends. Not sure this has been covered or not, 35 pages. Boyne looked into buying Saddleback, but there are some monopoly laws if Boyne owned the 3 largest resorts in the state in play. I'm not sure what all come into play, but a New England pass including Saddleback would real good right now. Doesn't sound like it will happen though....



That would really be a shame if that's their rationale. Those mountains all clearly compete against NH and VT resorts for weekend traffic and buying Saddleback would not move the needle with respect to Boyne's pricing power.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 19, 2015)

I didnt think Boyne OWNED these resorts but operated them?


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## Gforce (Nov 19, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> I just heard about this today when I was at Sunday River, talking with some friends. Not sure this has been covered or not, 35 pages. Boyne looked into buying Saddleback, but there are some monopoly laws if Boyne owned the 3 largest resorts in the state in play. I'm not sure what all come into play, but a New England pass including Saddleback would real good right now. Doesn't sound like it will happen though....



I'm not sure the FTC would intervene on anti-trust issues. DC has bigger issues and this is far off the Radar.

This is all about Money and Logic. Corporations want diversification. Difficult to imagine Boyne wanting Three (3) big destinations in... MAINE.


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## EPB (Nov 19, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> Believe me when I tell you Boyne would love to own Saddleback. It's not them just putting out there the monopoly laws and anti trust stuff. They have their legal team on it and there has been contact with the ..... whoever it is that oversees this kind of thing.
> 
> Step back and look a the Maine ski situation for a minute. Black Mountain was n danger of not opening for several years, now Lost Valley and Saddleback. Mt Abrams is not open every day of the week. Camden is only open for a short time. Big Squaw, we all know that story. The only real competition would be Shawnee. Who else is there Spruce Valley, Titcomb. Eaton, didn't they close down? What about that one n way northern Maine?
> 
> Within Maine, if Boyne had Saddleback, you could almost call it Ski Boyne instead of Ski Maine.



I just find Maine to be an arbitrary boundary because it ignores the fact that NH (especially) and VT are right there and clearly compete with all of the Maine areas near the NH boarder that you mentioned. The antitrust complaint feels like a bit of a straw man argument to me. 

It sounds like the only pricing power they might gain that you articulated is mid week - only for local business for people who can't realistically go elsewhere. I just don't see how that small subset of the population would be enough to move the needle either. Many are probably passholders and those without the money to pay up for any potential monopolistic price hikes would probably just stay home. That would be bad for business too.

If the rumor is true, I bet Maine is just upset with Boyne for their shoddy lift maintenance record at Sugarloaf and this is a BS road block.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2015)

You're right when looking at things regionally, but not from a Maine residents perspective.  I lived in Portland for three years.  I and everyone I knew skied in the state pretty much exclusively.  A few people went to North Conway, but most were either Shawnee, Saddleback or Boyne skiers.

That kind of monopoly would not only drive up Boyne prices a little, but likely everywhere else along with it.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You're right when looking at things regionally, but not from a Maine residents perspective.  I lived in Portland for three years.  I and everyone I knew skied in the state pretty much exclusively.  A few people went to North Conway, but most were either Shawnee, Saddleback or Boyne skiers.
> 
> That kind of monopoly would not only drive up Boyne prices a little, but likely everywhere else along with it.



I think you'd see the lowest midweek season pass option between between SB SL and SR go up significantly. I haven't looked at the difference in Boyne's midweek pass and SBs, but I'd bet it was pretty big. That could get wiped out without a  SB-only pass option. Beyond that, I don't think that there's evidence to suggest that SB was the lynchpin keeping Boyne from gouging Mainers. Not to mention, does it even matter if the alternative is that SB doesn't reopen?


----------



## Jully (Nov 19, 2015)

And Maine has 1.3 million people and there are people even up in Houlton that go to Saddleback regularly. It'd be interesting to see how many of SB pass holders come from in state versus out of state.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> I think you'd see the lowest midweek season pass option between between SB SL and SR go up significantly. I haven't looked at the difference in Boyne's midweek pass and SBs, but I'd bet it was pretty big. That could get wiped out without a  SB-only pass option. Beyond that, I don't think that there's evidence to suggest that SB was the lynchpin keeping Boyne from gouging Mainers. Not to mention, does it even matter if the alternative is that SB doesn't reopen?



I wasn't looking at it as an either or proposition.  You're right in that Boyne already has high prices.  That alone has Shawnee Peak overpriced IMO.  Their season pass pricing is higher than it probably should be because they can show a savings against Boyne.  Saddleback was at least an affordable option though apparently unsustainable.


----------



## Jully (Nov 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I wasn't looking at it as an either or proposition.  You're right in that Boyne already has high prices.  That alone has Shawnee Peak overpriced IMO.  Their season pass pricing is higher than it probably should be because they can show a savings against Boyne.  Saddleback was at least an affordable option though apparently unsustainable.



Shawnee is REALLY expensive. I don't get it. Problem is, if Boyne already has high prices, if they buy SB they'll definitely raise those prices too, and not by $50.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2015)

Exactly, Boyne already drives up the pricing of local competition. Taking away another affordable option in SB will only drive things up further.

It probably makes ver little difference to people from out of State with lots of money, but for local Mainers with likely less income, I see where it would be worrisome


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 19, 2015)

CNL owns both SL & SR. Purportedly CNL is looking to divest themselves of all their ski area properties. Here is a list of ski areas owned by CNL in the northeast.

Sunday River in Maine (operated by Boyne Resorts)
Sugarloaf in Maine (operated by Boyne Resorts)
Bretton Woods in New Hampshire (operated by National Resort Management Group)
Loon Mountain in New Hampshire (operated by Boyne Resorts)
Mount Sunapee in New Hampshire (operated by Triple Peaks)
Jiminy Peak in Massachusetts (operated by Jiminy Peak Mountain Resort)
Okemo Mountain in Vermont (operated by Triple Peaks)

They own additional ski area property in the mid west & west.


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## EPB (Nov 19, 2015)

Jully said:


> Shawnee is REALLY expensive. I don't get it. Problem is, if Boyne already has high prices, if they buy SB they'll definitely raise those prices too, and not by $50.



Their pass would go up because adding a new mountain to the offering is more valuable. That is by no means proof of anticompetitive behavior.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I wasn't looking at it as an either or proposition.  You're right in that Boyne already has high prices.  That alone has Shawnee Peak overpriced IMO.  Their season pass pricing is higher than it probably should be because they can show a savings against Boyne.  Saddleback was at least an affordable option though apparently unsustainable.



This only makes sense if Shawnee customers see SB as their only other option besides Boyne. Abram, Cranmore, Peak Resorts and both Black Mountains would beg to differ.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm just saying most Maine skiers stick to skiing in Maine and something that reduces competition typically results in higher pricing.  So, I could see why some would worry against it.

I don't live in Maine or buy a pass in that state.  No skin in the game


----------



## JAM614 (Nov 19, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> This only makes sense if Shawnee customers see SB as their only other option besides Boyne. Abram, Cranmore, Peak Resorts and both Black Mountains would beg to differ.



Shawnee Peak's biggest appeal is their close proximity to Maine's largest population base and higher median income.  With their w/e day ticket price increases and the fact that gas currently reasonable, may have Maine skiers seeking lower cost alternatives like Abrams, Black Mountain of Maine and the Camden Snowbowl.  For a little more $ and drive time they could also elect to ski SR and SL.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm just saying most Maine skiers stick to skiing in Maine and something that reduces competition typically results in higher pricing.  So, I could see why some would worry against it.
> 
> I don't live in Maine or buy a pass in that state.  No skin in the game



I hear you. My point is just that this really doesn't pass the sniff test for anticompetitive behavior. Considering just Maine ski areas does not do the economics of the region justice and SB is a small area in terms of visits. Especially when SB is farther from Portland than all of the places I mentioned and anticompetitive transactions generally involve two large parties coming together.

An SB addition to the Boyne pass would be a huge positive for SL pass holders (at least - really all three places for those that own property nearby). The fact that SB would get the certainty of a deep pocketed owner for the first time world be a huge relief to anyone who lives in our has property in Rangeley too.

Maine allegedly trying to scare Boyne away with words like anticompetitive is the juicy part of the rumor to me. Not trying to argue for the sake of it.


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## mbedle (Nov 19, 2015)

Why do you think that Maine skiers stick to skiing in Maine? The two largest population center is Maine are closer to the Wildcat than Sugarloaf or Saddleback.


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## bigbog (Nov 20, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Why do you think that Maine skiers stick to skiing in Maine? The two largest population center is Maine are closer to the Wildcat than Sugarloaf or Saddleback.



Some choose to live away from a city....has its pros/cons.  If you live in central NH would you spend most of your time skiing at Stowe?


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## Edd (Nov 20, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Why do you think that Maine skiers stick to skiing in Maine? The two largest population center is Maine are closer to the Wildcat than Sugarloaf or Saddleback.



Wildcat aside, the lack of decent east-west routes in northern New England discourages exploration for many folks, IMO. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Nov 20, 2015)

bigbog said:


> Some choose to live away from a city....has its pros/cons.  If you live in central NH would you spend most of your time skiing at Stowe?



I'm not sure what you mean by some choose to live away from a city. I understand that some people live outside of cities. I was trying to impress that the majority of the population in Maine is focused in the southwestern coastal area of the state. As such, i would have assumed that some of them travel west into NH to ski the White Mountains. Someone made a comment about lack of east west routes. I see that is true, but there is also a lack of north south routes in Maine to transport skiers to the three major resort within the state. 

I'm probably not the best person to pose the question of living in central NH and skiing at Stowe. I live in PA and spend about half of my time skiing at Stowe, driving by a lot of the big players in NY and VT when I travel up to Stowe. Now, if I lived in NH, I am guessing that I wouldn't have chosen to ski Stowe, but picked something like Loon.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2015)

Edd said:


> Wildcat aside, the lack of decent east-west routes in northern New England discourages exploration for many folks, IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



This is a big factor. The route from Portland to Wildcat sucks.

Also to consider regarding Sugarloaf is you have Sunday River on the pass as well, which is an easier drive to get to than Wildcat.

Saddleback is appreciably cheaper than Wildcat. (Or at least it was when I lived in Portland) that's a factor.

I also felt like there was a great deal of desire to support local businesses by Mainers.  I felt the same when living in Vermont. Both states have struggling economies, so "localvorism" is strong in both places.  Here in New Hampshire it's the opposite.  We take advantage of all the surrounding states economically as much as we can :lol:


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2015)

Here's a hypothetical compelling product.  This idea only came to me yesterday as I was up in Greenville Maine for the first time.  What if whoever buys Saddleback took management of Big Squaw as well.  I always had this impression of Big Squaw being appreciably further from the Portland metro area than SL and SB, but it really is only 20-30 minutes.  Squaw is an easy commute from Bangor area and also only three hours from Quebec City.

If a little snowmaking was added and the summit lift restored combining Big Squaw with Saddleback would provide two really nice vertical mountains of old school no frills New England skiing.  The combined season pass would likely be much more affordable than the Boyne pass and provide an excellent alternative to locals.  

That to me would be a much more compelling twist to the Maine skiing industry than Boyne simply gobbling up Saddleback and trying to turn it into another McSkiArea.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 20, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a hypothetical compelling product.  This idea only came to me yesterday as I was up in Greenville Maine for the first time.  What if whoever buys Saddleback took management of Big Squaw as well.  I always had this impression of Big Squaw being appreciably further from the Portland metro area than SL and SB, but it really is only 20-30 minutes.  Squaw is an easy commute from Bangor area and also only three hours from Quebec City.
> 
> If a little snowmaking was added and the summit lift restored combining Big Squaw with Saddleback would provide two really nice vertical mountains of old school no frills New England skiing.  The combined season pass would likely be much more affordable than the Boyne pass and provide an excellent alternative to locals.
> 
> That to me would be a much more compelling twist to the Maine skiing industry than Boyne simply gobbling up Saddleback and trying to turn it into another McSkiArea.



I see a FB post in the past couple days, that they've started a bank account to start running a sno-cat to the summit, to utilize the upper mountain trails... sounds like that is going to happen before the summit double will be fixed...

https://www.facebook.com/FriendsofSquaw/?fref=ts


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## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2015)

Saw it mentioned elsewhere that they've "opened a bank account" as a first step towards getting that lift restored or replaced.  Probably won't ever happen without either a generous benefactor or like I suggest an external mountain partner.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 20, 2015)

> According to the Maine Board of  Elevator and Tramway Safety, this season's state inspections on  Saddleback's lifts are due by November 30.  Last year's inspections were  conducted on November 5, 2014.



So... does this change the inspection process if the inspections aren't done in the next 10 days?



http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=345


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## SkiFanE (Nov 20, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by some choose to live away from a city. I understand that some people live outside of cities. I was trying to impress that the majority of the population in Maine is focused in the southwestern coastal area of the state. As such, i would have assumed that some of them travel west into NH to ski the White Mountains. Someone made a comment about lack of east west routes. I see that is true, but there is also a lack of north south routes in Maine to transport skiers to the three major resort within the state.
> 
> I'm probably not the best person to pose the question of living in central NH and skiing at Stowe. I live in PA and spend about half of my time skiing at Stowe, driving by a lot of the big players in NY and VT when I travel up to Stowe. Now, if I lived in NH, I am guessing that I wouldn't have chosen to ski Stowe, but picked something like Loon.



I think it could be partially the route. But for me - I never ski NH. Mountains are all pretty small. They may have great trails, but in general no "big" mountains. Starting in my 20s I became a snob and would only go to big places. VT ski areas are my fave, but logistically settling at a Maine Mt made sense. I don't want to argue if SR is a "big" mountain (and I never ski out west, so don't want to hear about that compare lol). But it skis big and has endless variety - which I need skiing there 50+days (few others in VT).


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## yeggous (Nov 20, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> I think it could be partially the route. But for me - I never ski NH. Mountains are all pretty small. They may have great trails, but in general no "big" mountains. Starting in my 20s I became a snob and would only go to big places. VT ski areas are my fave, but logistically settling at a Maine Mt made sense. I don't want to argue if SR is a "big" mountain (and I never ski out west, so don't want to hear about that compare lol). But it skis big and has endless variety - which I need skiing there 50+days (few others in VT).



I am scratching my head here. On what dimension are you defining "big"?


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 20, 2015)

Its actually less than a 1/2 hour longer to the loaf than Wildcat and shorter to SR.


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## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2015)

So by big you mean wide because SR river does not ski big vert wise. I used to ski there a lot but actually get bored at Sunday River after 1 day. Sugarloaf tends to have a lot of trails that ski the same and the top is closed way to often and when open is not always in great condition. I love Sugarloaf but its vert can be misleading. Saddleback's (which I also love) trails can't be skied in one day because the main lift is so f'n slow.

http://mountainvertical.com/best-skiing-in-new-england.php


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## SkiFanE (Nov 20, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> So by big you mean wide because SR river does not ski big vert wise. I used to ski there a lot but actually get bored at Sunday River after 1 day. Sugarloaf tends to have a lot of trails that ski the same and the top is closed way to often and when open is not always in great condition. I love Sugarloaf but its vert can be misleading. Saddleback's (which I also love) trails can't be skied in one day because the main lift is so f'n slow.
> 
> http://mountainvertical.com/best-skiing-in-new-england.php



yeah big across.  I'm happy every day I ski and really tend to change it up. Last year husband and I spent tons of time in chutzpah and hardball - one snowy day hardball was filling in with snow after each run on the top section. We probably 4-5 runs of it that day, then probably a couple chutzpah, few shcokwave and white heat. To me that's an awesome day and I only stayed on one peak. I wouldn't waste my time traversing to try something at Jordan that day - when I'm happy where I'm at I stay. 2 years ago we spent more time in woods and trails around Jordan it seemed. So I keep happy there. I know some people can't handle the same mountain all year - but it does give me lots of days on the hill for a good deal!


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## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2015)

SkiFanE said:


> yeah big across.  I'm happy every day I ski and really tend to change it up. Last year husband and I spent tons of time in chutzpah and hardball - one snowy day hardball was filling in with snow after each run on the top section. We probably 4-5 runs of it that day, then probably a couple chutzpah, few shcokwave and white heat. To me that's an awesome day and I only stayed on one peak. I wouldn't waste my time traversing to try something at Jordan that day - when I'm happy where I'm at I stay. 2 years ago we spent more time in woods and trails around Jordan it seemed. So I keep happy there. I know some people can't handle the same mountain all year - but it does give me lots of days on the hill for a good deal!



If i had a place at a mountain and season passes I would do the same. I can have fun no matter where I go if the conditions are good.


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## Jully (Nov 21, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> I have to agree with skifane. I used to live in NH, and feltthere was nothing big in NH like the loaf or river, or in VT like K or thebush. That being said, I particularly enjoyed wildcat and Bretton woods.Cranmore and a couple others were fun also. But to get the “big” skiexperience, I liked them to be tough to ski all the trails 3 times in a day.Not doing that at the River or loaf, or even Saddleback.
> 
> That being said, I’d ski about any resort, but tend to get bored on my thirdlap of all the trails.



In NH I'd say Cannon skis bigger than Bretton, others really might not agree, but I'm not a huge fan of BW.

If I'm going to ski NH I'll do Wildcat which also feels pretty big, but then I'll drive by anything else to ski Cannon.


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## Jully (Nov 21, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a hypothetical compelling product.  This idea only came to me yesterday as I was up in Greenville Maine for the first time.  What if whoever buys Saddleback took management of Big Squaw as well.  I always had this impression of Big Squaw being appreciably further from the Portland metro area than SL and SB, but it really is only 20-30 minutes.  Squaw is an easy commute from Bangor area and also only three hours from Quebec City.
> 
> If a little snowmaking was added and the summit lift restored combining Big Squaw with Saddleback would provide two really nice vertical mountains of old school no frills New England skiing.  The combined season pass would likely be much more affordable than the Boyne pass and provide an excellent alternative to locals.
> 
> That to me would be a much more compelling twist to the Maine skiing industry than Boyne simply gobbling up Saddleback and trying to turn it into another McSkiArea.



Wow, that's cruel for you to suggest that because now I really want that to happen and it probably never will.

Beyond just squaw being a great old NE style mountain, I'd also like to see another multi mountain company enter the Maine market. It's really hard for me to rationalize getting say, a Shawnee pass or a SB pass because it's 1 mountain (debateably smaller than SR/SL too) versus those two even if I enjoy SB more than SL a good portion of the time.

I'm assuming it's also a lot of the reason why solo operations on the bigger side are struggling in Maine.


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## Edd (Nov 27, 2015)

Tweet from Sunday River today:



It boils down to they're offering the 2015 spring rates to SB pass holders.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2015)

Edd said:


> Tweet from Sunday River today:
> 
> View attachment 17979
> 
> It boils down to they're offering the 2015 spring rates to SB pass holders.



Better than nothing


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## EPB (Nov 28, 2015)

Way better.


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 28, 2015)

Portland Herald article also used as source in Boston Globe article.  Just frustrated season pass holders.

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/11/27/silence-on-saddleback-resorts-status-frustrates-skiers/


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## billski (Nov 28, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Portland Herald article also used as source in Boston Globe article.  Just frustrated season pass holders.
> 
> http://www.pressherald.com/2015/11/27/silence-on-saddleback-resorts-status-frustrates-skiers/



for every bitching passholder I'll bet there are a dozen who have voted with their feet.  Hell, the season is pretty much in gear.  Who would be paying for a full price pass this late in the game at a mountain that can't figure out if it wants to open.  A poor reflection how the place might operate if indeed it opens.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2015)

billski said:


> for every bitching passholder I'll bet there are a dozen who have voted with their feet.  Hell, the season is pretty much in gear.  Who would be paying for a full price pass this late in the game at a mountain that can't figure out if it wants to open.  A poor reflection how the place might operate if indeed it opens.



I don't think it reflects on the new owners at all, and not even on the Berry's. They were fine communicators when they were in command. I think however this supposed sale is going down is just limiting communication on both sides.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2015)

billski said:


> for every bitching passholder I'll bet there are a dozen who have voted with their feet.  Hell, the season is pretty much in gear.  Who would be paying for a full price pass this late in the game at a mountain that can't figure out if it wants to open.  A poor reflection how the place might operate if indeed it opens.



Did you even read the article?   The passes were already purchased.  I'm sure many of them can't "vote with their feet" because they have serious money already invested at Saddleback that the mountain refuses to refund.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2015)

It doesn't appear you can buy a Saddleback pass currently.  Says Out of Stock

The point to me of the article is that people purchased their passes to Saddleback early in good faith in order to get a good price..  I did the same buying my Wildcat pass in May.

Now their money is tied up in a product that may not exist.

Sunday River is doing these people a solid by offering the early discount prices.  Some will have the extra cash to go that route (or Shawnee's offer), but some will not.

Whether it's the Berry's or the new owners, I feel refunds should have  been available immediately upon disclosure that operations were in doubt for the season.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It doesn't appear you can buy a Saddleback pass currently.  Says Out of Stock
> 
> The point to me of the article is that people purchased their passes to Saddleback early in good faith in order to get a good price..  I did the same buying my Wildcat pass in May.
> 
> ...



I am a bit surprised that they have not refunded the money and just admitted that things are on hold at this point.  They certainly can do that and resell later.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 29, 2015)

When did they open for the "season" last year?


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## xwhaler (Nov 29, 2015)

Saddleback has traditionally opened for the season the wknd before Xmas every yr.  I've seen them open 2 wknds prior bit generally have not gone sooner than that.
Ususally the goal is to have upper mtn open by new yrs


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## Brad J (Nov 29, 2015)

I am sure that they are using the pre sold passes as a negotiation chip in the sale, certainly thats not fair to the pass holders and the troops will make it hard on the new owners if this is not resolved quickly. IMO if they don't open this year that the value is reduced buy 1/3. If it is indeed Peaks Resort may be they think that waiting a year and reopening will work like it did at Crotchet. That strategy may not work with a remote location like Saddleback.


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## danimals (Nov 29, 2015)

Regardless, if they ever open again, I will go. It's been on my friends and mines radar for years. The drive up from Philly is what prevented us from going before, however this summer we solidified plans to actually do it. Bummer we will have to put it off.


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2015)

Brad J said:


> I am sure that they are using the pre sold passes as a negotiation chip in the sale, certainly thats not fair to the pass holders and the troops will make it hard on the new owners if this is not resolved quickly. IMO if they don't open this year that the value is reduced buy 1/3. If it is indeed Peaks Resort may be they think that waiting a year and reopening will work like it did at Crotchet. That strategy may not work with a remote location like Saddleback.



Highly doubt it's peaks at this point. Too many rumors about foreign buyers. Peaks was a stretch even when we knew nothing about the buyer. 

I think peaks realizes the problems associated with running a resort business model like Saddleback and that's why they seek a different market.


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2015)

Brad J said:


> If it is indeed Peaks Resort may be they think that waiting a year and reopening will work like it did at Crotchet. That strategy may not work with a remote location like Saddleback.



Crotched was closed for many years before Peaks bought it so different situation.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Crotched was closed for many years before Peaks bought it so different situation.



+ 1. And Crotched is closer to more people. 


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## salsgang (Nov 30, 2015)

As probably the biggest Saddleback homer on this thread (haha) with $1,500 tied up in 2015-16 season passes, I put together some thoughts on the whole situation on my blog:

Condensed version:

- I absolutely love Saddleback
- My problem is not that big. This really impacts the folks that live and work in the Rangeley area. 
- Pre-season pass holders are angry and I don't blame them
- Chris Farmer (GM) is doing everything he possibly can to get this resolved
- Owning a ski mountain is risky business!
- Even if not this year, the lifts will turn at Saddleback again. I am hopeful.

For more words and details - visit my post on the blog. 

http://www.maineskifamily.com/2015/11/my-thoughts-on-saddleback-maine-ski-area.html


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## Edd (Nov 30, 2015)

This is on the Saddleback Realty website. Like just the lodge is for sale? Not sure if this has been in the thread already. 



Edit: it does say resort under primary use. This listing isn't a great sign, obviously. Not even an "under contract" indication.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

With all this talk about Asian ownership, I'm hoping that the Great Leader is going to expand his North Korean skiing empire by adding a second resort.  The Dear Leader makes everything perfect.  Saddleback will have the fluffiest snow and it will last for twelve months every year!


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## Brad J (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1. And Crotched is closer to more people.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone





Smellytele said:


> Crotched was closed for many years before Peaks bought it so different situation.



I am not sure if closed for one year or 10 years really makes much of a difference, once the skiers move on I think its tough to get them back. and thats why I felt the remote location would not work, all for not with Peaks buying Hunter. Any who I sure hope for the sale to get completed in the next two weeks so the people in the area that depend on Saddleback being in business


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## Smellytele (Nov 30, 2015)

They always have all the snowmobilers that head there. I think that brings in more money than the ski area.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

As Brad J said Peaks announced today that it bought Hunter.  Not Saddleback.


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## prsboogie (Nov 30, 2015)

Who mentioned Asian?


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## benski (Nov 30, 2015)

Edd said:


> This is on the Saddleback Realty website. Like just the lodge is for sale? Not sure if this has been in the thread already.
> 
> View attachment 17997
> 
> Edit: it does say resort under primary use. This listing isn't a great sign, obviously. Not even an "under contract" indication.



The lot is listed as over 2000 acres. I assume that's the entire ski area. 


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> Who mentioned Asian?



A condo owner.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

benski said:


> The lot is listed as over 2000 acres. I assume that's the entire ski area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah that is not a good sign.


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## Bostonian (Nov 30, 2015)

Anyone have a cool $9.5M?  Maybe we can raise it and have a private AZ resort!


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## prsboogie (Nov 30, 2015)

I know the one I'm friends with did mention foreigners but she didn't say what kind


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Article from BDN: 

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/12/...n-future-saddleback-mountain-looks-for-buyer/


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## danimals (Dec 1, 2015)

"If they don't open, they will refund money"

Isn't it safe to say they won't be opening at this point?


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## freeski (Dec 1, 2015)

If they can't sell by the 3rd week of December they should just give the mountain to the skiers who bought passes and condo owners. This is the only fair way to resolve this mess.


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## tipsdown (Dec 1, 2015)

I actually took his the other way....seems like he's telegraphing this as much as he can. They're only negotiating with buyers who will open for this ski season. Sounds like a deal is close...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> I actually took his the other way....seems like he's telegraphing this as much as he can. They're only negotiating with buyers who will open for this ski season. Sounds like a deal is close...



Honestly it is too late to have any sort of successful season.  Granted it is only December 1st, but vacationers have already made other arrangements and word is out that they are not open.  It will be tough to win those folks back.


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## tipsdown (Dec 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Honestly it is too late to have any sort of successful season.  Granted it is only December 1st, but vacationers have already made other arrangements and word is out that they are not open.  It will be tough to win those folks back.



Probably true....but doesn't mean it won't happen. Less revenue this season is probably contemplated in the deal in some
way shape or form...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

tipsdown said:


> Probably true....but doesn't mean it won't happen. Less revenue this season is probably contemplated in the deal in some
> way shape or form...



I think it is good to be optimistic and hold out hope, but I think here their actions speak louder than their words.  Specifically, not hiring any staff, not doing anything to get ready to open, and yet stringing folks along (maybe that is a bit strong, but it is true so far).  In addition to losing a lot of revenue they've now almost certainly lost most of their staff.  Perhaps the suitor realizes this and wants to sit on his/her/their hands in order to drive the value of the business down so that it is a better deal....and one in the spring.


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## billski (Dec 3, 2015)

A couple of cogent points inthe BDN article:

"Sandy McDavitt bought the Alpine Shop in June. She said in the winter  skiers are her best customers. “I’ve had to scale down on staff, and  I’ll probably be looking at closing two days during the week. For the  first time in 56 years the store will be closing a couple days of the  week,”

"Condos at Saddleback and the surrounding area are not being rented out  either. Connie Russell owns a vacation rental agency. She said not one  skier has booked yet."

There goes the neighborhood.  And the local economy.  Thank God for the snowmobilers, who do fill a lot of beds in town.


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## billski (Dec 4, 2015)

Check out their  web cam.  It may be the only thing operating there.   Good Lord, I'd be  up there in a heartbeat given that picture.

http://www.saddlebackmaine.com/webcam

On epicski it was noted that they were testing snow guns last night.


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## salsgang (Dec 4, 2015)

billski said:


> Check out their  web cam.  It may be the only thing operating there.   Good Lord, I'd be  up there in a heartbeat given that picture.
> 
> http://www.saddlebackmaine.com/webcam
> 
> On epicski it was noted that they were testing snow guns last night.



This whole situation is NUTTY


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## jimk (Dec 4, 2015)

Hoping for a secret Santa to make some magic and reopen that place by Christmas.


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## billski (Dec 5, 2015)

salsgang said:


> As probably the biggest Saddleback homer on this thread (haha) with $1,500 tied up in 2015-16 season passes,


you have my sympathies.  Seriously.  Hope you get your bucks back this year.  what is plan B for you?


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## billski (Dec 5, 2015)

Nail in the casket, me thinks.
Found this over at newengland ski industry web.

"...[FONT=Georgia, Arial]the Rangeley double chairlift was still listed as for sale on at least one ski industry brokerage site."

"[FONT=Georgia, Arial]according to the Maine Board of  Elevator and Tramway Safety, this season's deadline for required state  inspections on Saddleback's lifts deadline passed."

RIP.  At least for now.

More business details here:  http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=348 [/FONT]
[/FONT]


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## salsgang (Dec 5, 2015)

billski said:


> you have my sympathies.  Seriously.  Hope you get your bucks back this year.  what is plan B for you?



Probably Black Mt Maine. Final nail not in the coffin yet for SB but pretty damn close me thinks.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 5, 2015)

The fact that it is no longer listed for sale could be encouraging no?  

Maybe that means the sale went through.

I wouldn't think the inspection deadline passing is a concrete thing.  With how many jobs are tied to the resort and the amount of taxes they pay, I'm sure the state could make arrangements for an inspection still.


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## chuckstah (Dec 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The fact that it is no longer listed for sale could be encouraging no?
> 
> Maybe that means the sale went through.
> 
> I wouldn't think the inspection deadline passing is a concrete thing.  With how many jobs are tied to the resort and the amount of taxes they pay, I'm sure the state could make arrangements for an inspection still.



This is definitely true. When  Camden Snow bowl installed their first chair it opened in late January IIRC. Most definitely some time in January or later.  The state will work with the ski areas.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The fact that it is no longer listed for sale could be encouraging no?
> 
> Maybe that means the sale went through.
> 
> I wouldn't think the inspection deadline passing is a concrete thing.  With how many jobs are tied to the resort and the amount of taxes they pay, I'm sure the state could make arrangements for an inspection still.



It was kind of funny the listing was gone, the morning after I pointed it out that it was still being listed, over on Sugarloaftoday.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 6, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> This is definitely true. When  Camden Snow bowl installed their first chair it opened in late January IIRC. Most definitely some time in January or later.  The state will work with the ski areas.



Oh, not a concrete thing I'm sure. But just another massive sign waving, that they aren't going to open. They probably couldn't do the inspections, if they didn't have their lift crews in there doing the maintenance, and getting everything ready for the annual inspections, now could they?

I would imagine the certs run out on December 31st, So... even if by some miracle, snowmaking and lift crews started tomorrow, there doesn't look like much of a chance of any holiday skiing at Saddleback this year. I'd still bet heavily that there won't be any skiing there this season.

It really sucks for the people who sprung for the early buy on the season passes, and have been refused refunds now that the season has started without them. It's not like everyone has the *extra money* laying around to go buy expensive passes at other mountains now that their money is tied up, and no communication forthcoming. It's creating a lot of ill-will, that could have been completely avoided.


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## prsboogie (Dec 6, 2015)

I think in the absolute worst case scenario and the sale goes through, the new owners should A) honor the sold passes and B) give a free pass to anyone who purchased at early rates for the following season for good will for the stress and inconvenience  the previous owners put them through. 

If not free, then at lease a dramatically discounted rate.


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## Whitey (Dec 6, 2015)

salsgang said:


> Probably Black Mt Maine. Final nail not in the coffin yet for SB but pretty damn close me thinks.



I already posted a long post on my thoughts on SB a while ago in this thread.  

I just wanted to add my sympathies to Sal.   His posts about his trips to SB, along with others on this website, is what 1st got me interested in SB.   I can remember looking at his posts back in '08-'10 and thinking "I gotta get there".   It was the reason why I made the push to hit it with my sons a couple of times over the last several years and we loved it (except for the Rangeley double).   Skied SB right at the time when my boys were really getting into tree skiing.   A large part of why they look for tree runs wherever they ski now is because of those trips to SB.


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## salsgang (Dec 6, 2015)

Whitey said:


> I already posted a long post on my thoughts on SB a while ago in this thread.
> 
> I just wanted to add my sympathies to Sal.   His posts about his trips to SB, along with others on this website, is what 1st got me interested in SB.   I can remember looking at his posts back in '08-'10 and thinking "I gotta get there".   It was the reason why I made the push to hit it with my sons a couple of times over the last several years and we loved it (except for the Rangeley double).   Skied SB right at the time when my boys were really getting into tree skiing.   A large part of why they look for tree runs wherever they ski now is because of those trips to SB.



Thanks for the compliments on the posts. I am glad you found the trees and enjoyed Saddleback!

The owners (Berry's) are honorable people. I am confident they will refund if they don't sell and don't open this year. It sucks to have $1500 tied up in pre-season passes, but I could have worse problems.

They STILL haven't announced their plans for this year... so I am guessing negotiations are STILL going on.... hanging on to a glimmer of hope but being realistic too.


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## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Oh, not a concrete thing I'm sure. But just another massive sign waving, that they aren't going to open. They probably couldn't do the inspections, if they didn't have their lift crews in there doing the maintenance, and getting everything ready for the annual inspections, now could they?
> 
> I would imagine the certs run out on December 31st, So... even if by some miracle, snowmaking and lift crews started tomorrow, there doesn't look like much of a chance of any holiday skiing at Saddleback this year. I'd still bet heavily that there won't be any skiing there this season.
> 
> It really sucks for the people who sprung for the early buy on the season passes, and have been refused refunds now that the season has started without them. It's not like everyone has the *extra money* laying around to go buy expensive passes at other mountains now that their money is tied up, and no communication forthcoming. It's creating a lot of ill-will, that could have been completely avoided.



11/30 usually on the certs.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 6, 2015)

I feel really badly for the condo owners.  This is why I'd never by a condo at a vulnerable ski area.  Too risky for my blood.  Even if the resort opens back up this has got to shake confidence in the condo market up there.  

On the other hand, if the resort closes temporarily it good be a good time to buy if you can stomach the risk.  

One way or the other it's too good a resort to see on NELSAP.  


.


----------



## crank (Dec 6, 2015)

How long was Saddleback closed before the current owners reopened it?


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## tipsdown (Dec 6, 2015)

It never closed....it hasn't't in its 60 year history that I know of.


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## crank (Dec 6, 2015)

My bad.  Thought the current owners had reopened it.  Looks like it was a similar situation when they bought it though I think the area was in danger of closing.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I feel really badly for the condo owners.  This is why I'd never by a condo at a vulnerable ski area.  Too risky for my blood.  Even if the resort opens back up this has got to shake confidence in the condo market up there.
> 
> On the other hand, if the resort closes temporarily it good be a good time to buy if you can stomach the risk.
> 
> ...



The people who owned the condo's near the lower mountain section of Haystack have done OK lately by holding on to their property  

Certainly the exception to what usually happens though....


----------



## x10003q (Dec 6, 2015)

drjeff said:


> The people who owned the condo's near the lower mountain section of Haystack have done OK lately by holding on to their property
> 
> Certainly the exception to what usually happens though....



The have done well, but there was minimal risk with Mt Snow right up the road.


----------



## danimals (Dec 18, 2015)

Update from Facebook page:

SADDLEBACK UPDATE: Our prospective new owner and the Berry Family feel confident that we will complete a transaction - opening by late January. December 19th marks the traditional opening day for Saddleback, in lieu of the fact that we will not be operating on that date, we are offering passholders three options:
1. WAIT FOR A SNOWY OPENING DAY: By waiting for opening day, you will receive an additional 50% resort credit bonus added to your season pass that can be used anywhere in the resort: food, tickets, lessons, rentals, seasonal locker rentals, future season or day passes etc. This may be used this year or next. 
2. CONVERT YOUR SEASON PASS INTO A GIFT CARD: The amount of your pass purchase will be placed on a gift card and by waiting for opening day you will receive an additional 50% resort credit bonus that can be used anywhere in the resort: food, tickets, lessons, rentals, seasonal locker rentals, future season or day passes etc. This may be used this year or next. With the abbreviated season this may give you more flexibility.
3. RECEIVE FULL REFUND: Receive a Full Refund of your season pass.
At any time from now until opening day, if you wish to not wait any longer you may request your season pass refund and pass up on the additional 50% resort credit bonus opportunity. 
To review current passholder options go to: www.saddlebackmaine.com/current-passholder-options


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 18, 2015)

High fives!


----------



## prsboogie (Dec 18, 2015)

Wow that's great news!!


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## billski (Dec 18, 2015)

Surprised there is no JP option for the remainder of the season.  Just to comp for the uncertainty and angst.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2015)

Hope the sale goes smoothly and lots of natural falls in January to help the new owners off to a good start.

Glad to see they're taking care of their pass holders.


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## fiddleski (Dec 18, 2015)

Sounds promising. Just hope it's not Q-Saddleback (Q-back...?).


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## xwhaler (Dec 18, 2015)

Excellent news, now everyone get up there and ski this amazing place


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## Edd (Dec 18, 2015)

billski said:


> Surprised there is no JP option for the remainder of the season.  Just to comp for the uncertainty and angst.



JP?


----------



## JDMRoma (Dec 18, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Excellent news, now everyone get up there and ski this amazing place



Hope they open before The AZ summit !
There day 2 of the Puckit tour to the Summit !!


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## DoublePlanker (Dec 18, 2015)

Great news!  I hope the new owners have deep pockets.  

Curious if they open with the old chair that was claimed to need replacement.


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## oldtimer (Dec 18, 2015)

It is a long hike if they do not open it.    Yes, deep pockets and a sense of humor.




DoublePlanker said:


> Great news!  I hope the new owners have deep pockets.
> 
> Curious if they open with the old chair that was claimed to need replacement.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hope the sale goes smoothly and lots of natural falls in January to help the new owners off to a good start.
> 
> Glad to see they're taking care of their pass holders.



+1.  Glad that they broke the silence. Add to the fact that this was a good season to not be open at this point. Certainly sounds like this will be going through.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

Edd said:


> JP?



Does JP mean joint pass?


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## Edd (Dec 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Does JP mean joint pass?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That would be nice for the pass holders, obviously. 

Here's many possibilities for what JP could stand for since it's apparently difficult to get to the bottom of this. 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jp


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## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2015)

I had no idea on almost all of those.  

I may try and convince my wife that she should refer to me as her JP in association with number 4 on that list.


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## JamaicaMan (Dec 20, 2015)

Better late than never for SB! Hopefully close goes well


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## salsgang (Dec 21, 2015)

They have provided an option for those that want to get out and ski elsewhere, and provided incentive for those willing to hang in there with them. As a purchased passholder I am satisfied with those options. Hopefully lift serviced turns will happen this year.

I wrote up an article on my blog providing more thoughts and details for those interested.


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## xwhaler (Dec 21, 2015)

salsgang said:


> They have provided an option for those that want to get out and ski elsewhere, and provided incentive for those willing to hang in there with them. As a purchased passholder I am satisfied with those options. Hopefully lift serviced turns will happen this year.
> 
> I wrote up an article on my blog providing more thoughts and details for those interested.



Nice write up.  Very happy to hear the news on Friday.
Curious what option you guys are going with?


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## salsgang (Dec 21, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Nice write up.  Very happy to hear the news on Friday.
> Curious what option you guys are going with?



We are definitely hanging in there and will go with one of the 50% options depending on opening date. Still working through ski plans for the Xmas holiday and January. Would be a heck of a lot easier if there was more snow on the ground! Oh well.


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## xwhaler (Dec 21, 2015)

salsgang said:


> We are definitely hanging in there and will go with one of the 50% options depending on opening date. Still working through ski plans for the Xmas holiday and January. Would be a heck of a lot easier if there was more snow on the ground! Oh well.



That Shawnee option seems pretty nice----cheap pass to get you through the next 6 weeks and then a hedge against Saddleback deal falling thru/getting additionally delayed.


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## salsgang (Dec 21, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> That Shawnee option seems pretty nice----cheap pass to get you through the next 6 weeks and then a hedge against Saddleback deal falling thru/getting additionally delayed.



Agreed. That is the leading option for us at the moment.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 21, 2015)

While they "hope" to be open in later January, lots of things can happen to delay a closing.  I see that you recognized this in your blog entry.  That's why it's nice that they are offering a couple of different options.

I'm not sure what I would choose at this point.  It's not as if you are missing great skiing right now.  My greatest fear would be whether or not they have sufficient liquidity to refund all of the season passholders if the deal falls through.  That fear alone might lead me to take a full refund now and go with Shawnee.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 21, 2015)

Kind of surprized at all the love the Berry family is getting on FB and elsewhere.The SB regulars have been hung out to dry for about 6 months on a false pretense of having to get a lift replacement before reopening this year.I called BS when that first notice was put out there.I'll bet if they do open that the Rangley will spin.


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## salsgang (Dec 21, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Kind of surprized at all the love the Berry family is getting on FB and elsewhere.The SB regulars have been hung out to dry for about 6 months on a false pretense of having to get a lift replacement before reopening this year.I called BS when that first notice was put out there.I'll bet if they do open that the Rangley will spin.



Your perspective is not without merit. We choose to look ahead an hope for the best but lets say this will be an interesting business school case study someday.


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## tipsdown (Dec 21, 2015)

This has definitely been well received, I think in large part because the Berry regime is almost over….Skiers are looking ahead.  The message and refund program came from the new owner.To that point, the likelihood of a deal getting done is very high. Most of all, people are just relieved. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, there will be skiing at Saddleback this year.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 21, 2015)

any rumblings to who or what entity will be completing the purchase?  Any chance Peak Resorts is still in play as an acquisition to their portfolio?


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## tipsdown (Dec 22, 2015)

I've heard a lot of rumblings but nothing I'd consider reliable...Whoever it is, they've made an effort to lay as low as possible.  It's remarkable how successful they've been in keeping this under wraps.  I'm almost sure Peak is not involved however....


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## ScottySkis (Dec 22, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> any rumblings to who or what entity will be completing the purchase?  Any chance Peak Resorts is still in play as an acquisition to their portfolio?


Well they Just bought Hunter in the Catskills a few weeks ago FYI.

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## Jully (Dec 22, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> any rumblings to who or what entity will be completing the purchase?  Any chance Peak Resorts is still in play as an acquisition to their portfolio?



Definitely not peaks.


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## dlague (Dec 23, 2015)

Roots Estate bought a chunk of land there - could be a possibility.


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## mbedle (Jan 12, 2016)

Looks like the agreement is in place for the sale and the only thing left is the paperwork.


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## tipsdown (Jan 12, 2016)

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/01/11/saddleback-owners-buyer-agree-to-sale-terms/


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> http://www.pressherald.com/2016/01/11/saddleback-owners-buyer-agree-to-sale-terms/



OK, deal is in place.  So let's get some thoughts as to WHO the new owner is.  My thoughts are that it is someone that we do not know at all...a new player.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

And another recent article that was linked on that one:  http://www.pressherald.com/2016/01/03/skiers-boarders-miss-saddleback/


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

$825 for a SB pass? That surprised me


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> $825 for a SB pass? That surprised me



That seems high.


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## tipsdown (Jan 12, 2016)

I was told the pass pricing is old...it hasn't been updated since July. 

I agree on the new owner.....A new player.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That seems high.



Especially considering their low day ticket prices and available deals in the past.


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## Edd (Jan 12, 2016)

$69 for a day pass also sounds high for there. I feel like it was $49 only a couple of years ago.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2016)

I am going to make a bold prediction: Les Otten, or a group he is affiliated with.

Peak has no problem announcing prior to closing, so I don't think that it's them.  I'm wondering if financing still needs to be secured, thus the secrecy.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

That would surprise. I would think Otten would have already made a press release stating plans to take full advantage of Saddleback's 4000 vertical feet, 10k acres of terrain and 300" of annual snowfall


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## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2016)

I hope that the owners of Bear Creak Mountain Resort purchased Saddleback.  They could sell a collective pass and call it the Bear Back Pass.


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## mbedle (Jan 12, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I hope that the owners of Bear Creak Mountain Resort purchased Saddleback.  They could sell a collective pass and call it the Bear Back Pass.



I hope you know what that really means!!!!!! Otherwise, you made a pretty unintentional pun.


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## wtcobb (Jan 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> That would surprise. I would think Otten would have already made a press release stating plans to take full advantage of Saddleback's 4000 vertical feet, 10k acres of terrain and 300" of annual snowfall



Don't forget that if Otten were running the show, Saddleback would have been 100% open in mid-November. :lol:


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## ss20 (Jan 12, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Don't forget that if Otten were running the show, Saddleback would have been 100% open in mid-November. :lol:



With the steepest, longest, widest, biggest, baddest, newest, awesomest, bump/tree/groomer run in the East!


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## Jully (Jan 12, 2016)

ss20 said:


> With the steepest, longest, widest, biggest, baddest, newest, awesomest, bump/tree/groomer run in the East!



+1

Highly doubt it's Otten though. Hes way to involved with Balsams to also go and secretly buy Saddleback. Everything I've heard out of there thus far says foreigners and new players.


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## Whitey (Jan 13, 2016)

I've got some inside intel that let it slip who the new owner is.    Pictured below.   If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.   Maine is a swing state, it's a good deal on  the real estate, and there are very few Mexicans in the area.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2016)

Whitey said:


> I've got some inside intel that let it slip who the new owner is.    Pictured below.   If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.   Maine is a swing state, it's a good deal on  the real estate, and there are very few Mexicans in the area.



:lol:

"It's going to be the best damn resort in the world!"


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## Edd (Jan 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:
> 
> "It's going to be the best damn resort in the world!"
> 
> ...



Certainly the classiest.


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## Whitey (Jan 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:  "It's going to be the best damn resort in the world!"



He's already got the slogan ready:   He's going to make Saddleback great again!

I just hope that means a new HSQ to replace the Rangeley double. . .


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## VTKilarney (Jan 13, 2016)

Will he build a wall around the resort and make the state of Maine pay for it?


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## Whitey (Jan 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Will he build a wall around the resort and make the state of Maine pay for it?



You've got it wrong, he's going to build the wall around the resort and make Canada pay for it.     Those damn 'nucks only send their rapists to ski in the US anyway. . .


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## VTKilarney (Jan 13, 2016)

Maybe the new owner will be Bernie Sanders.  

He'll charge $1 to ski but there will be a $200 tax.  The cafeteria worker will earn $95 an hour. Management will earn $25 an hour.


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## wa-loaf (Jan 13, 2016)

Whitey said:


> I just hope that means a new HSQ to replace the Rangeley double. . .



It'll be gold plated.


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## wtcobb (Jan 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> "It's going to be the best damn resort in the world!"



It'll be UUUUUUGE.

I can see it now: "People say you can't make snow in June. But there are some scientists - some very smart scientists by the way - who I have that say that I can. We'll be making snow year-round here, year round. Far more snow than any of the other guys. Otten? What a loser."


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## Mapnut (Jan 13, 2016)

To change the subject (you're welcome), it's kind of sad these days, and yet not sad, to look at the Saddleback webcam ticking away unattended: www.saddlebackmaine.com/webcam  Looks like it's snowing there more than anywhere else. The good news for the new owner:  by the time they open, if they can, they won't have to make any snow at all.


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## wtcobb (Jan 13, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> To change the subject (you're welcome), it's kind of sad these days, and yet not sad, to look at the Saddleback webcam ticking away unattended: www.saddlebackmaine.com/webcam  Looks like it's snowing there more than anywhere else. The good news for the new owner:  by the time they open, if they can, they won't have to make any snow at all.



Yup. Saddleback will make for a great EYT peak in the meantime!


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## Mapnut (Jan 13, 2016)

One place that isn't letting the natural go to waste is the little volunteer-run one-chairlift operation at Squaw Mountain, Greenville, ME. 
http://mooseheadlake.us/


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 13, 2016)

I'm actually in talks to purchase Saddleback with part of the $1.5 billion I'm going to win tonight. :idea:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm actually in talks to purchase Saddleback with part of the $1.5 billion I'm going to win tonight. :idea:



PLEASE buy Burke first!


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## wtcobb (Jan 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> PLEASE buy Burke first!



A Saddleback, Burke, and Magic package under new management would make a lot of people here happy...


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## yeggous (Jan 13, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> A Saddleback, Burke, and Magic package under new management would make a lot of people here happy...



I can think of no better way to lose your fortune!


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## wtcobb (Jan 13, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I can think of no better way to lose your fortune!



You're right. $1.5B worth of heli-skiing it will be, then!


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## delco714 (Jan 13, 2016)

A little birdy in the know told me who may be buying and is close to signing on saddleback


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## deadheadskier (Jan 13, 2016)

Out with it!


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## delco714 (Jan 13, 2016)

Kurt Russell


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## capt'n (Jan 13, 2016)

mmmm family does have ties in the area, waaaay better that Les


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 13, 2016)

Goldie hawn can be my ski bunny anyday


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## tipsdown (Jan 14, 2016)

That's been going around for a while....They have a home there but I don't think there's anything else to it..For what it's worth, current Management has said no to that rumor (then again if they signed an NDA, they probably have to deny).  Almost sure it's not him though....


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## delco714 (Jan 14, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> That's been going around for a while....They have a home there but I don't think there's anything else to it..For what it's worth, current Management has said no to that rumor (then again if they signed an NDA, they probably have to deny).  Almost sure it's not him though....


I see your point.. Apparently his dad used to be a ski coach over there and they definitely have ties.. My source states very much on going and fresh thoughts on this


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## wtcobb (Jan 14, 2016)

I guess we'll never get to hear the phrase, "I built this ski hill - with BULLETS!"


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## tipsdown (Jan 14, 2016)

delco714 said:


> I see your point.. Apparently his dad used to be a ski coach over there and they definitely have ties.. My source states very much on going and fresh thoughts on this



If your source has fresh thoughts on it, there may be something to it... but seems to me more like a bi-product of the creative rumor mill  Time will tell


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## wtcobb (Jan 14, 2016)

Thoughts on skinning Saddleback this weekend? Looking like 10-14" coverage. A comment on T4T mentioned insurance - given that the resort isn't open and it's private property, would uphill travel be permitted? On the plus side, I bet there won't be any crowds!


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## tipsdown (Jan 14, 2016)

Coverage should be sufficient on trails not exposed to the wind....Probably one storm away from opening up the tree's though. Not sure if Saturday's now will be enough...


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 15, 2016)

Just in from SB on FB:



[h=5]*SADDLEBACK MAINE*[/h]2 mins · 





_Everything continues to move forward, but we are still working on paperwork! Our groomer mechanic, Gary, came back to work on Monday._


----------



## tipsdown (Jan 15, 2016)

And....still no word on buyer.


----------



## prsboogie (Jan 15, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> And....still no word on buyer.



Once the ink I'd dry I'm sure you will


----------



## capt'n (Jan 18, 2016)

Wandering around the mountain yesterday for some turns. The place is a ghost town, shades drawn on condos, lodge not shoveled out, tumbleweed blowing across the slopes. Perhaps rubbing the "potential owners" foggy crystal ball will help get the place ready by the "end of the month". Great mountain. Local economy taking a huge hit.
Hope the dream somehow becomes a reality for a 2016 opening. I am not going to bet on it however.


----------



## Rushski (Jan 19, 2016)

^Between Saddleback still not open and the less-than-stellar snowfall for the sledders...  Must be very tough on the local economy.


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## oldtimer (Jan 27, 2016)

*And January comes to an end*

That must be some complicated paperwork!.  End of January and nothing to report except to stand by to stand by.  They have reported that their groomer mechanic has returned to work and the snow report indicates that they have a terrain park open????

This vale of secrecy is very weird.  Either there is a deal and a buyer or not.  There is a community of folks who want to support a working mountain but you would never know it from the way these people are acting.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2016)

Is there any point to opening this year?  The weather forecast is horrendous, and it's VERY late in the game to being snowmaking.

As much as I would love to see them open, I'm struggling to figure out how it would make sense from an economical standpoint.


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## danimals (Jan 27, 2016)

They probably want to open something at least. That way they have staying power in peoples minds, and won't lose pass holders for next season. Could take a loss this season, but less of one next.


----------



## crank (Jan 27, 2016)

Well they picked a good season to be closed anyway.


----------



## tipsdown (Jan 27, 2016)

danimals said:


> They probably want to open something at least. That way they have staying power in peoples minds, and won't lose pass holders for next season. Could take a loss this season, but less of one next.



+1.  Heard there is activity on the mountain and they are close to all systems go.  Time will tell.....


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 27, 2016)

Maybe 2nd half of February will bring the goods.  The skiing there is SO GOOD when they have a lot of snow.  Last March was incredible.


----------



## joshua segal (Jan 27, 2016)

I noticed on a snowgun deployed on the hill on today's webcam.


----------



## delco714 (Jan 27, 2016)

crank said:


> Well they picked a good season to be closed anyway.


Yeah I'm sure this near or over 40° weather with the the freeze cycle are going to do wonders for Iceloaf

I made what I thought to be a funny comment on their Facebook. They got all excited that timberline was open. Even after the best of weather it usually sucks..always with wind hold and glare ice abound


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jan 29, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> I noticed on a snowgun deployed on the hill on today's webcam.


OK,where do they hide their webcam?Never saw one.


----------



## Edd (Jan 29, 2016)

Just shouting at the universe so pay it no mind. 

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 29, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> OK,where do they hide their webcam?Never saw one.



here:

http://www.saddlebackmaine.com/webcam


----------



## Whitey (Jan 29, 2016)

Edd said:


> Just shouting at the universe so pay it no mind.
> 
> WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?


----------



## Mapnut (Jan 29, 2016)

Ho hum, it's snowing there again. Why couldn't Magic be the one closed due to a change in ownership, and Saddleback managing to get their chairlift running but with minimal snowmaking?


----------



## machski (Jan 29, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> Ho hum, it's snowing there again. Why couldn't Magic be the one closed due to a change in ownership, and Saddleback managing to get their chairlift running but with minimal snowmaking?



Don't worry, this little burst won't amount to much.  Would like to hear good news, hope it works out next season for them.  For those customers who got strung out this year, I do feel bad for you.  With so many variables with sales of these types, they should have been upfront, bit the bullet for the year and just issued refunds on season pass sales.  This IMHO.


----------



## skiMEbike (Feb 8, 2016)

For those still following....

FACEBOOK POST TODAY:
As of today we know the following:

We will not be open for February vacation week and any update on a possible opening date will be posted as we receive the information.

Saddleback is more than a mountain - it is a community of people. We are asking for your support as we seek to ensure the long term viability of this community. The Berry Family has made the decision not to pressure the buyer but to be supportive of the situation. We are very grateful to the condominium owners, season pass holders and local businesses for being so supportive of our position.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2016)

skiMEbike said:


> For those still following....
> 
> FACEBOOK POST TODAY:
> As of today we know the following:
> ...



If there really was a sale then the last two sentences are meaningless because the Berry Family would have no say after the sale.  This whole thing is weird.


----------



## joshua segal (Feb 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> If there really was a sale then the last two sentences are meaningless because the Berry Family would have no say after the sale.  This whole thing is weird.


Not weird if the Berry family is holding a second mortgage or something like that; or if the new owner is a family member.


----------



## tipsdown (Feb 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> If there really was a sale then the last two sentences are meaningless because the Berry Family would have no say after the sale.  This whole thing is weird.



This only makes sense because the sale has not occurred (yet). Berry's are still holding the title.


----------



## Brad J (Feb 8, 2016)

Well why would anyone open after Feb vacation , the new owners really are going to face an uphill battle to ever be viable. I really feel for the community that depend on the area for jobs. If there really is a new owner they will have to outperform beyond all expectations next year. I am not sure who is in charge, but the way this was handled it would have been far cheaper to put the chair in with family $$$ if there was any left after the lodge overbuild. The value is dropping by the day!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2016)

Brad J said:


> Well why would anyone open after Feb vacation , the new owners really are going to face an uphill battle to ever be viable. I really feel for the community that depend on the area for jobs. If there really is a new owner they will have to outperform beyond all expectations next year. I am not sure who is in charge, but the way this was handled it would have been far cheaper to put the chair in with family $$$ if there was any left after the lodge overbuild. The value is dropping by the day!!!



This.  

They've lost pretty much any valuable "good will value" for the business.  

My comment was that it just seems very strange that they would not have had some contingency plan in place to open this season because resorts that don't open for even a season can really struggle afterwards to regain credibility and market.


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## Tin (Feb 8, 2016)

Which opens next year, Magic or Saddleback? Sounds like there is no sale.


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## reefer (Feb 8, 2016)

Tin said:


> Which opens next year, Magic or Saddleback? Sounds like there is no sale.




Bumped into a friend at work today who has been around the ski business from way back. We're talking about the tough times of some hills and he tells me straight out - Saddleback sale fell through. I had never talked about Saddleback with him before so I was taken back. Came here to investigate and saw these last few posts. I'll definitely ask him where he heard this tomorrow. Wasn't AZ.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2016)

reefer said:


> Bumped into a friend at work today who has been around the ski business from way back. We're talking about the tough times of some hills and he tells me straight out - Saddleback sale fell through. I had never talked about Saddleback with him before so I was taken back. Came here to investigate and saw these last few posts. I'll definitely ask him where he heard this tomorrow. Wasn't AZ.



That would make sense.  Deal falls through, the owners don't have the interest or money to open for part of a bad season, and they decide to hang it up for this season and put it back on the market.


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## wtcobb (Feb 9, 2016)

If I were a buyer I'd be tempted to hold off on the purchase until after the season. All the bad vibes from this winter placed on the old ownership. Maybe a sale will be renegotiated and go through this summer? Start fresh with a new year as opposed to coming into a hornet's nest.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2016)

In hindsight, they would have lost either way.  If they opened they would have hemorrhaged money, but they will also feel an impact for not opening.  

I don't envy their situation.  Hopefully a sale goes through in time to have everything lined up for next year.


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## wtcobb (Feb 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In hindsight, they would have lost either way.  If they opened they would have hemorrhaged money, but they will also feel an impact for not opening.
> 
> I don't envy their situation.  Hopefully a sale goes through in time to have everything lined up for next year.



Very true on all counts here. Tough situation to be in.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 9, 2016)

I can wait 'till next year. Top 5 mountains.


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## tipsdown (Feb 9, 2016)

Yes, also heard the deal with current buyer fell through.  I'm hearing they were working with multiple buyers until late fall.  They ultimately pursued the buyer that was willing to try and open...there was only one. The buyer(s) that didn't want to open this year are back in play....Heard the helicopter is back for what it's worth.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 9, 2016)

I dont know why the Berry family gets all this love for the way this has been handled.I said it back in July that this ploy about not opening unless a new lift could be installed smelled.It still stinks and they continue to string their faithfull along.


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## JamaicaMan (Feb 9, 2016)

Feel bad for Saddleback skiers like my sister's fam. 

Purchase offering prices from any buyers will surely be dropping now that it won't be opening...


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## xwhaler (Feb 9, 2016)

JamaicaMan said:


> Purchase offering prices from any buyers will surely be dropping now that it won't be opening...



Not necessarily if there are now multiple parties back in play. Plus not opening now means the new buyer doesn't assume the risk of this yr in terms of even getting back to break even given the short time left + lack of natural.

I think we get some news in the next couple weeks that they are officially not opening this yr which of course is obvious at this stage.
I then think we get some good news sometime late Spring that a deal has come through and new buyers are assuming control to get mtn ready for next yr.
Question will be whether Rangeley gets replaced right away or not.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 10, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> I then think we get some good news sometime late Spring that a deal has come through and new buyers are assuming control to get mtn ready for next yr.
> .



Based on what?Surely not this past years track record which is actually worse than Burke in my opinion.At least Burke opened.The regular skier base has been jerked around since summer.


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## xwhaler (Feb 10, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Based on what?Surely not this past years track record which is actually worse than Burke in my opinion.At least Burke opened.The regular skier base has been jerked around since summer.



Maybe I'm just overly optimistic as a big 'Back fanboy but I do think a deal gets done. There were multiple parties interested this summer/fall----too big/special to go NELSAP I hope.

The Berry's were done losing $ so once the loan didn;t come through to replace the Rangeley they decided basically not to open and only sell to someone who would open this yr.


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## EPB (Feb 10, 2016)

I'd hope Boyne would try to get the place off the scrap heap on the cheap before NELSAP.


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## skiMEbike (Feb 10, 2016)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd hope Boyne would try to get the place off the scrap heap on the cheap before NELSAP.



That would be a dream come true (at least for this Maine skier)...The Back, The River, and The Loaf all on one pass (& yes I did intentionally leave Loon off the list :razz


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## Abominable (Feb 10, 2016)

Man, this thread is a bummer.  Friends have always told me to get there and never have.  As a longtime fisherman (including fly) I've fished a lot up around there, and so it has an attraction just for the trail names, if for no other reason.  Seems to have that 'vibe' - hopefully that will be enough to keep it going.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 10, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Maybe I'm just overly optimistic as a big 'Back fanboy but I do think a deal gets done. There were multiple parties interested this summer/fall----too big/special to go NELSAP I hope.
> 
> The Berry's were done losing $ so once the loan didn;t come through to replace the Rangeley they decided basically not to open and only sell to someone who would open this yr.



I'm not ragging on you and I too hope something gets done.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 10, 2016)

Saw this on their website today.

We will not be open for February vacation week and any update on a possible opening date will be posted as we receive the information.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Saw this on their website today.
> 
> We will not be open for February vacation week and any update on a possible opening date will be posted as we receive the information.



I can't imagine that they will open this year if they miss February break.  Maybe if they get a ton of snow.  But are the lifts inspected and do they even have insurance?


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## tipsdown (Feb 10, 2016)

I know for certain there were multiple buyers, some with very ambitious plans that would be interested in purchasing the resort in the winter/early spring. The pressure is off to open this year....I don't know the details but I can say said buyer(s) are no longer on the sidelines. This situation has no doubt been a mess but I would be surprised if they don't have a new owner by the end of ski season.


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## salsgang (Feb 10, 2016)

I have run out of words...


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## machski (Feb 10, 2016)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'd hope Boyne would try to get the place off the scrap heap on the cheap before NELSAP.



Don't think they have the capital.  They would have bought Solitude long before Saddleback but couldn't get that together.  After this season, I would doubt they would want another New England resort to operate.  And BTW, they don't own any of the 3 they already operate here.


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## capt'n (Feb 10, 2016)

Hope Boyne is not in the running.  Someday Bigger and Ice Loaf should keep them busy with their corporate visions.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

If I'm the operators of Boyne, I'd expect to get a much greater ROI on investing the $9M or whatever it is into their current holdings than buying SB.  

- further development of South Peak at Loon

- New Bucksaw chair with summertime and evening capabilities to get to Bullwinkles.  (Chondola)


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## ss20 (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If I'm the operators of Boyne, I'd expect to get a much greater ROI on investing the $9M or whatever it is into their current holdings than buying SB.
> 
> - further development of South Peak at Loon
> 
> - New Bucksaw chair with summertime and evening capabilities to get to Bullwinkles.  (Chondola)



Yeah, it's not like they do much with their NE properties.  Loon got South Face, which is pretty big.  SR got their Chondola.  SL BS'ed their way into becoming the "largest ski resort east of the Rockies".

But all that's old news.  In the past 5 years it's been the "snowmaking and general improvements" that every resort pulls every year when they don't actually do anything noteworthy.


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## Jully (Feb 11, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Yeah, it's not like they do much with their NE properties.  Loon got South Face, which is pretty big.  SR got their Chondola.  SL BS'ed their way into becoming the "largest ski resort east of the Rockies".
> 
> But all that's old news.  In the past 5 years it's been the "snowmaking and general improvements" that every resort pulls every year when they don't actually do anything noteworthy.



Except the Loaf has had dramatic improvements to snowmaking that I would rather see than a K.P. HSQ. Yeah the technology has improved, but Boyne still went out and made it happen. 

Besides, Boyne is about as stable an operator as you can get. SB had really aggressive expansion plans much of which got canned, then this happened. New quads, condos, and base lodge are very nice, but it's all moot this winter.


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## Jully (Feb 11, 2016)

Do people think SB moved snowguns into the webcam's field of vision for show, or is stuff actually going to happen?


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## joshua segal (Feb 11, 2016)

Jully said:


> Do people think SB moved snowguns into the webcam's field of vision for show, or is stuff actually going to happen?



According to my sources, there were plans to begin snowmaking and open in time for Feb. vacation week.  With last Weds. rainstorm/blowtorch in the forecasts, they changed their mind, feeling that the upcoming westher would render the effort useless and a waste of money.  Usually, by this time of year, there is plenty of natural snow at Saddleback on which to operate, but my source tells me: not so this year.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 11, 2016)

I'm confused.  The Berry's were going to operate for the vacation week?  If not them, who?

I thought the sale fell through.


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## joshua segal (Feb 11, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm confused.  The Berry's were going to operate for the vacation week?  If not them, who?
> 
> I thought the sale fell through.



Again, from my source.  The deal has not fallen through.  The potential new owner would have been the operator (with Berry's approval) even though the deal has still not been finalized.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 11, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> Again, from my source.  The deal has not fallen through.  The potential new owner would have been the operator (with Berry's approval) even though the deal has still not been finalized.



That would make sense since they stated that they did not want to "pressure" the buyers.  It sounds like there was some sort of hiccup, but that the buyers are still trying to work things out.


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## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> The River's biggest additions over the past years are the Chondola and T-72, a dedicated park with a huge half pipe. I've heard it takes "a million dollars" each year to blow all the snow required for the jumps and half pipe as well as maintaining the features. I'm fairly certain that number was just thrown out there, but it is a huge chunk of cash.
> 
> This year, they have not got the half pipe going, but the jumps are in place, and pretty impressive. I rolled over the yesterday, no air. And get this, I was the only one on them, though I did see a couple other tracks in the fresh corduroy. A huge investment for not much use. I have heard the president of SR say that if we are going to advertise ourselves as a world class resort, we have to have this. Can't say I disagree with him, but it's still big coin.



Weekends when it isn't just "old people" skiing it probably gets used a lot more.
 Nobody over 40 uses the park.


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## fiddleski (Feb 11, 2016)

Interesting - you and tipsdown obviously have different sources with completely contrary stories (sale has fallen through, sale has not fallen through). That's not intended as a comment on who is right, just an observation. 

Here's my question: Do you or tipsdown know who the buyer is? Not asking for a name - that's clearly "top secret", just if you know what the name is.



joshua segal said:


> Again, from my source.  The deal has not fallen through.  The potential new owner would have been the operator (with Berry's approval) even though the deal has still not been finalized.


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## joshua segal (Feb 11, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> Interesting - you and tipsdown obviously have different sources with completely contrary stories (sale has fallen through, sale has not fallen through). That's not intended as a comment on who is right, just an observation.
> 
> Here's my question: Do you or tipsdown know who the buyer is? Not asking for a name - that's clearly "top secret", just if you know what the name is.


I've been asked not to give details.  I can say that all names and corporations that I know of have been mentioned on this thread.  However, there have also been a lot of names and corporations mentioned on this thread that I can only imagine are someone's WAG with no basis in fact.

Condo owners are still hoping for March.


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## fiddleski (Feb 11, 2016)

Thanks. Just trying to put together even the most basic elements of the scenario. Can't make hide nor hair of it.


joshua segal said:


> I've been asked not to give details.  I can say that all names and corporations that I know of have been mentioned on this thread.  However, there have also been a lot of names and corporations mentioned on this thread that I can only imagine are someone's WAG with no basis in fact.
> 
> Condo owners are still hoping for March.


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## prsboogie (Feb 11, 2016)

Talked to my condo owner friend and she has no clue what the hell is going on. She is just as much in the dark as everyone here, except maybe Joshua Segal, . I will say that, she has heard Les Otten's name thrown around a few times and that the helicopter has been seen around again.


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## joshua segal (Feb 11, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> Talked to my condo owner friend and she has no clue what the hell is going on. She is just as much in the dark as everyone here, except maybe Joshua Segal, ��. I will say that, she has heard Les Otten's name thrown around a few times and that the helicopter has been seen around again.


Interesting because my source is also a condo owner.  That being said, s/he has been surprised by a few unexpected curves.


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## prsboogie (Feb 11, 2016)

Her and her husband are making up for the lost season but going out to Baniff in March. Not a bad conciliation prize huh


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## fiddleski (Feb 11, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> Talked to my condo owner friend and she has no clue what the hell is going on. She is just as much in the dark as everyone here, except maybe Joshua Segal, ��. I will say that, she has heard Les Otten's name thrown around a few times and that the helicopter has been seen around again.


Hard to imagine Les Otten in this case, since he would be competing directly against his own Balsams mega-resort plan. I would imagine his fellow investors might have something to say about that. On the other hand, I'm sure he would find it very satisfying to poke a stick at SL, SR.


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## prsboogie (Feb 12, 2016)

Unless he is sitting on a pile of money he isn't willing to dump into the Balsams that no one knows about I doubt he has any skin in this game. Unless he's leaking things to f*$k with people


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 12, 2016)

Well, there is this:
For at least the third time in the past year, the proposed Balsams construction start date has been delayed.
 The project was originally slated to start on June 1, 2015, however developers cited the legislative process in obtaining state backed bonds as reason for delaying construction until late summer. The project was delayed again during the summer with a new groundbreaking date set for fall 2015.

That date has now been pushed back to June 2016.

Maybe the delay is putting that project aside and switching it to Saddleback.Takes time to aquire a lot more land surrounding SB and getting investors onboard a new plan.I dont really believe this buttttttt.......


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## yeggous (Feb 12, 2016)

I'd be willing to believe Otten would double up with both Saddleback and the Balsams. I don't see how the Balsams or Saddleback alone can compete in the local market without teaming up on a multi-area pass.

We are not talking about southern or central Vermont. In New Hampshire, Maine, and far Northern Vermont multi-area passes are the standard. The Balsams would be competing directly against the Judge Pass, Granite Pass, New England Pass, and White Mountain Super Pass. Adding together the Balsams and Saddleback would give both a fighting chance.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2016)

If I had choose between the two areas, I'd much prefer seeing Saddleback return than the Balsams even with the massive expansion plans.


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## bigbog (Feb 12, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> Hard to imagine Les Otten in this case, since he would be competing directly against his own Balsams mega-resort plan. I would imagine his fellow investors might have something to say about that. On the other hand, I'm sure he would find it very satisfying to poke a stick at SL, SR.



You'd find it _*strange*_ for Les to not be _a player_ again and provide an alternative, for skiers, to Boyne?


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## EPB (Feb 12, 2016)

There's no real path too him doing that besides getting his existing ownership group on board with Saddleback AND finding the money for it. I'd find it hard to believe that he could pull it off.


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## bigbog (Feb 12, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> According to my sources, there were plans to begin snowmaking and open in time for Feb. vacation week.  With last Weds. rainstorm/blowtorch in the forecasts, they changed their mind, feeling that the upcoming westher would render the effort useless and a waste of money.  Usually, by this time of year, there is plenty of natural snow at Saddleback on which to operate, but my source tells me: not so this year.



Temps have been just fine up here.  IMO times like this are when you bargain tough and buy...guess we shall see.

EPB:
>There's no real path too him doing that besides getting his existing ownership group on board with >Saddleback AND finding the money for it. I'd find it hard to believe that he could pull it off.

You're probably right EPB...  but you never know..some areas of the resort could be re-planted for new growth.  Think number of lifts is fine, just upgrade where needed + snowmaking.  Lodge expansion in time.  In making development = go for the views!  Close proximity to lifts can be important for parents..but alternative-fueled shuttles are so common now = should be the standard...and imho..a resort doesn't need as many groomed trails(in good conditions) as in the past/present.  So many skiers, with so many choices for a little more width underfoot, can have better experiences with natural cover, again...with decent temps.  If not hard, windblown for days....crud is just a minor inconvenience to be skied through these days...think a lot of skiers would welcome it to hone the skills...$.01.


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## yeggous (Feb 12, 2016)

eastern powder baby said:


> There's no real path too him doing that besides getting his existing ownership group on board with Saddleback AND finding the money for it. I'd find it hard to believe that he could pull it off.



Does anybody know what the actual sales terms are?

For example, when Wildcat was sold the price was $5M. Of that amount, Peak Resorts only paid about $500k cash, and the balance was taken on as debt payable to the seller. Do you think that Les could pull together a 10% down payment and assume an IOU to the Berry family for the balance?


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## EPB (Feb 12, 2016)

Point taken. I'd imagine they wouldn't buy a place without developing it though, which would be substantially more expensive


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## ss20 (Feb 12, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Do you think that Les could pull together a 10% down payment and assume an IOU to the Berry family for the balance?



I don't think Les needs to write an IOU... That'd be like Bill Gates writing an IOU to buy a computer.


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## capt'n (Feb 12, 2016)

ss20 said:


> I don't think Les needs to write an IOU... That'd be like Bill Gates writing an IOU to buy a computer.



I remember when the ASC was sinking and took out a loan for 25M at 25%.....


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## DoublePlanker (Feb 12, 2016)

Balsams is not delayed due to the developer.  It is going thru the approvals process.  So Les is NOT dragging his feet on that.


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## fiddleski (Feb 12, 2016)

bigbog said:


> You'd find it _*strange*_ for Les to not be _a player_ again and provide an alternative, for skiers, to Boyne?



Personally, I don't find it strange at all. But it's my understanding that Les's money is a rather small percentage of the investment planned for the Balsams build-out. He would have to convince a lot of people that another big resort right next door in a neighboring state is an asset rather than a competitive liability. He's also got the state backing him, so politicians would want to weigh in. It seems a stretch with the Balsams not even off the ground yet, but who knows, he might be able to do it.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 12, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> . He would have to convince a lot of people that another big resort right next door in a neighboring state is an asset rather than a competitive liability. it.



I wouldn't call it even close to "next door".Its about an hour and a half drive.


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## fiddleski (Feb 12, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I wouldn't call it even close to "next door".Its about an hour and a half drive.



But still very much in the same region of NE, especially from the viewpoint of those driving from metro areas.


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## capt'n (Feb 12, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> But still very much in the same region of NE, especially from the viewpoint of those driving from metro areas.



I think the balsam business model is that "they" will be flying in or their chauffeurs will be driving them. Both saddleback and the balsams are a looooong way from anywhere, and certainly not a day trip for most metro dwellers. Big development dreams based on condo's and mic mansions.


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## Jully (Feb 13, 2016)

capt'n said:


> I think the balsam business model is that "they" will be flying in or their chauffeurs will be driving them. Both saddleback and the balsams are a looooong way from anywhere, and certainly not a day trip for most metro dwellers. Big development dreams based on condo's and mic mansions.



All the more reason not to buy two resorts up there. SB is no Sunday River by far. I could believe that Les wants to do it, but I have a very hard time believing he has enough money. Sure, he could buy it, but expand it? No way. 

In the 90s I could see this happening, but funding ski area expansion is difficult these days.


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## capt'n (Feb 13, 2016)

Jully said:


> All the more reason not to buy two resorts up there. SB is no Sunday River by far. I could believe that Les wants to do it, but I have a very hard time believing he has enough money. Sure, he could buy it, but expand it? No way.
> 
> In the 90s I could see this happening, but funding ski area expansion is difficult these days.


 
Hope Less sticks to his guns and continues his development spin with the Balsams. I can only hope and pray SB won't turn into a sunday river, SB is a way better product IMHO. SB sustainability depends on living within your means philosophy, nice alternative to Iceloaf.    "Build it and they will come" doesn't always work in the long haul
Good powder day on the midcoast today!


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## Smellytele (Feb 13, 2016)

Jully said:


> All the more reason not to buy two resorts up there. SB is no Sunday River by far. .


Right - Saddleback's terrain is 10x better than Sunday River's.


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## xwhaler (Feb 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Right - Saddleback's terrain is 10x better than Sunday River's.



This goes w/o saying


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## Jully (Feb 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Right - Saddleback's terrain is 10x better than Sunday River's.



Definitely! Doesn't mean it lends itself to Otten expansion plans or business models.


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## Smellytele (Feb 14, 2016)

Jully said:


> Definitely! Doesn't mean it lends itself to Otten expansion plans or business models.



I gotcha now


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## tipsdown (Feb 16, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> I've been asked not to give details.  I can say that all names and corporations that I know of have been mentioned on this thread.  However, there have also been a lot of names and corporations mentioned on this thread that I can only imagine are someone's WAG with no basis in fact.
> 
> Condo owners are still hoping for March.



Just to clarify, Joshua Segal's info is mostly in line with what I know.  There may still be a pulse but clearly there have been snags with the sale...I do know they are working with another buyer(s)...They would not be if a deal with Buyer A was a slam dunk.  I have also heard they have not shut the door on the season, which seems crazy, but also sounds like a pipe dream.....Hopefully things work out soon....


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## delco714 (Feb 28, 2016)

Been quiet here..


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## Jully (Feb 28, 2016)

Webcam's been deactivated


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## skiMEbike (Mar 1, 2016)

I wouldn't call this "news"...but rather stating the obvious...

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/02/29/saddleback-quiet-on-whether-it-will-open-at-all-this-season/


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## skiMEbike (Mar 1, 2016)

And then there is this:

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=392


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## Whitey (Mar 1, 2016)

It's March 1, 2016.    Don't you think that by now they can do away with the charade that the mountain might open this season?     There is 0% chance, buyer or not, that SB opens this season.    What would be the point?  Skier visits decline after February and this season has been a bust for conditions anyway.


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## freeski (Mar 1, 2016)

If they had an average snow year things would be quite different. If you were the buyer looking up at a mountain of powder it would look like a mountain of gold.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 1, 2016)

I've been calling bullshit on this since the July/Aug announcement of the need for a new lift or SB could not open.This is one time I wish I was wrong.


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## fiddleski (Mar 2, 2016)

I think shutting down the webcam is just an acknowledgement of the obvious - no opening this season. There's no longer any "pressure" to get a deal done immediately, but now the question is, when does the clock start ticking for next season? Assuming there will be a new owner who will want to install a new lift, how long does that process take? It always seemed to me that the whole July 31st deadline from last year (for new lift funding) was awfully tight. I'm still holding out hope that we'll be able to celebrate the grand opening of the new "Rangeley Quad" next December...


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## joshua segal (Mar 2, 2016)

The situation is complicated.  Apparently at least two "sure fire" deals fell through. If there had been adequate snow to open without snowmaking, I suspect they would have opened (probably without the Rangeley Double).  I don't consider Saddleback dead by any stretch of the imagination.  The condo owners are strong and affluent; and they have their investment to protect.


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## yeggous (Mar 2, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> The situation is complicated.  Apparently at least two "sure fire" deals fell through. If there had been adequate snow to open without snowmaking, I suspect they would have opened (probably without the Rangeley Double).  I don't consider Saddleback dead by any stretch of the imagination.  The condo owners are strong and affluent; and they have their investment to protect.



What good to condo owners do? It's a big jump from buying a condo to profitably operating a ski area. Condo owners do not guarantee survival. Ask Ascutney.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2016)

yeggous said:


> What good to condo owners do? It's a big jump from buying a condo to profitably operating a ski area. Condo owners do not guarantee survival. Ask Ascutney.



I also don't understand the logic of protecting a condo worth a couple hundred thousand dollars by investing in a ski area that has lost millions even though we've had a couple of great years for snow.  

I don't think that Saddleback is dead, but I don't see the condo owners saving it unless there is a condo owner with a LOT of money they are willing to lose.


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## joshua segal (Mar 2, 2016)

FWIW, the last three owners were all affluent real estate owners on the mountain.

The Ascutney parallel doesn't work where most of the real estate was corporately owned.  (What surprised me was that the corporation didn't step in at Ascutney to protect their capital, but big corporations can walk away like that).  There is no big corporate land owner at SB.


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## xwhaler (Mar 2, 2016)

What Josh is saying I think is that the condo owners collectively could band together to raise some capital.
The collective good for all condo owners of course is an operating ski mountain.

Now what form that takes, who knows---I'm not saying a co-op or anything but just that the condo owners are invested and are working I'm sure to ensure the survival of the place. Easier to do if they band together vs wait for a white knight to ride in.


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2016)

Condo owners will not save the place. Has there ever been an example where condo owners saved  a ski area? Most probably used their disposable income on owning the condo. When are the condo owners going to save Magic or Burke? Did they save Tenney?


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## tipsdown (Mar 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Condo owners will not save the place. Has there ever been an example where condo owners saved  a ski area? Most probably used their disposable income on owning the condo. When are the condo owners going to save Magic or Burke? Did they save Tenney?



They may...but not in the way your thinking about it, not an evenly distributed collective effort .  It would be tough to make the numbers work for everyone involved.  Without naming names, there are some condo owners that have the money and resources to put a deal together. I think that's what Joshua was alluding to.  By the way, I have no idea if that's on the table or not. The Berry's had property on the mountain for years before buying the mountain.


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> They may...but not in the way your thinking about it, not an evenly distributed collective effort .  It would be tough to make the numbers work for everyone involved.  Without naming names, there are some condo owners that have the money and resources to put a deal together. I think that's what Joshua was alluding to.  By the way, I have no idea if that's on the table or not. The Berry's had property on the mountain for years before buying the mountain.


And who wants to follow the Berry's down that rabbit hole? A fool and his money soon part.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2016)

I'd be a fool for Saddleback if I had the money..

Difference is Saddleback has among the best terrain in the Northeast. It *can* work up there, but it would take a big marketing investment to reach beyond their core audience. The condos are fantastic too. All they really needed was a new chairlift, and they could have skated by without replacing it for another season or two.

Did they lose $ every year, even last year?


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## tipsdown (Mar 2, 2016)

That's the X million $ question.  My guess is not a condo owner.  My money is on a loaded dreamer.  They're out there. They've had at least a couple of those so far. That seems to be the type of buyer that Saddleback attracts.  

I liken it to a Pro sports analogy...Some owner with deep pockets who can afford to take a gamble will make it their #1 pick because of the upside...it has a higher ceiling than anyone else (in the East) it terms of raw potential.  But they're an unproven commodity with still a lot of question marks (location and location). But....they fall in love with the potential and take the plunge.


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## x10003q (Mar 2, 2016)

Ultimately, it really depends on the lowest  price that the Berry's are willing to sell SB. After that, it is just a calculation. There is a number where it works. If the Berry's don't agree then they are going to be stuck with the place. Maybe some of the big money in the condos is able to help move the pricing closer to a purchase price that both sides can live with.


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## delco714 (Mar 2, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'd be a fool for Saddleback if I had the money..
> 
> Difference is Saddleback has among the best terrain in the Northeast. It *can* work up there, but it would take a big marketing investment to reach beyond their core audience. The condos are fantastic too. All they really needed was a new chairlift, and they could have skated by without replacing it for another season or two.
> 
> Did they lose $ every year, even last year?


I agree. The mountain as mountains go.weather..direction.. Girth..etc..kicks sugariceloaf's ass


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## steamboat1 (Mar 2, 2016)

delco714 said:


> I agree. The mountain as mountains go.weather..direction.. Girth..etc..kicks sugariceloaf's ass



Dream on.


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## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Dream on.



I agree it is more fun to ski than Sugarloaf - not a dream.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2016)

SB and SL are basically a tie for me, obviously very different hills though. It would be hard for me to imagine driving all the way up there and not skiing both back to back.


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## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> SB and SL are basically a tie for me, obviously very different hills though. It would be hard for me to imagine driving all the way up there and not skiing both back to back.



I do the same when I am up there. Ski 2 days at 1 and 1 day at the other.


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## tipsdown (Mar 3, 2016)

Both have great terrain but each has an edge on the other depending on your skiing preference.  If you prefer skiing big top-to-bottom groomers then you probably prefer Sugarloaf.  If you prefer more natural gnarly runs with trees and bumps, you probably prefer Saddleback.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> Both have great terrain but each has an edge on the other depending on your skiing preference.  If you prefer skiing big top-to-bottom groomers then you probably prefer Sugarloaf.  If you prefer more natural gnarly runs with trees and bumps, you probably prefer Saddleback.



And yet they both excel at the other's strengths as well. Boy I hope somebody saves this mountain!

Glad I finally got to ski it last season for 2 epic April powder days. Did not imagine that might be the last. I was planning on making SL > SB a yearly or at least every 2 years trip.


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## darent (Mar 3, 2016)

same with me,last year  we skied 3 days at SB,our first time there, then skied a week at SL. great trip and we planned on doing it again this year. shame they are going through this.a fun little mountain and I didn't mind the slow double!!


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## delco714 (Mar 3, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> Both have great terrain but each has an edge on the other depending on your skiing preference.  If you prefer skiing big top-to-bottom groomers then you probably prefer Sugarloaf.  If you prefer more natural gnarly runs with trees and bumps, you probably prefer Saddleback.


I don't disagree entirely...but I'm pretty comfortable and respectfully stating that SB has loads of long groomed blues!


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## tipsdown (Mar 4, 2016)

They have some nice long groomers, it's just broken up more since they don't have a top-to-bottom signature lift that most every other big mountain has.  That's the (well-documented) missing link...


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 4, 2016)

A top to bottom lift would cause too much traffic on America probably. I like the way the lifts are laid out now, minus the sometimes waits on the slow double.


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## tipsdown (Mar 4, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> A top to bottom lift would cause too much traffic on America probably. I like the way the lifts are laid out now, minus the sometimes waits on the slow double.



There's plenty of real estate to build out a handful of other cruisers on that western shoulder....


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## Jully (Mar 4, 2016)

I found the expansion map awhile back from like 2005. The plan was to expand down from the base of the quad and make a new base area with a top to bottom gondola from there to the top of the steeps.


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## delco714 (Jun 1, 2016)

Any updates?


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## machski (Jun 2, 2016)

Not much.  Keep an eye on this link, Sugarloaf Today site.  Chris Farmer tends to respond/post a bit here too.
http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/...id=09a1b723da9b9c5a691a2cd9b67fea79&start=600


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

Sounds like no deal.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fiddleski (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks for the link - I didn't know that Chris posted there.  It's been "Bueller...Bueller..." here for months now. No good news, but at least he hasn't given up hope yet.

I always wondered what happened with their EB-5,  but maybe now we can guess why it never seemed to get off the ground...  





machski said:


> Not much.  Keep an eye on this link, Sugarloaf Today site.  Chris Farmer tends to respond/post a bit here too.
> http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/...id=09a1b723da9b9c5a691a2cd9b67fea79&start=600


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## raisingarizona (Jun 5, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> A top to bottom lift would cause too much traffic on America probably. I like the way the lifts are laid out now, minus the sometimes waits on the slow double.



I kind of think that the classic top to bottom lift at most east coast areas is over rated imo. Most areas out east (or any where for that matter) the terrain is disjointed in pitch. I would much rather get back on a lift right when the steeper terrain ends than hitting a long boring run out every run to then just sit on a longer and unnecessary chair ride. I haven't skied at Saddleback but the current layout looks pretty cool to me, the lifts need an upgrade tho.


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## loafer89 (Jun 20, 2016)

Posted for posterity, hopefully I was not among the last to ski Saddleback:

Area skied: Saddleback, Maine.

Date skied: April, 18th, 2015 from 9:30 - 2:00pm

Weather: Sunshine and clouds, rain showers after 2pm.

Surface conditions: Frozen granular, Idaho mashed potatoes, corn snow.

I skied Saddleback today with my son and I am glad that we choose to ski today, as the weather was much nicer than we expected based on the forecast.

We started skiing at 9:30am, when Saddleback opened, which was too early for soft snow due to subfreezing temperatures on Friday night. Green Weaver was chatteroy , as was Supervisor. America skied a lot better with soft groomed corn snow.


Tri-Color was next with soft groomed snow, we skied this to Lower Hudson Highway which had un-groomed rotten snow and bare areas depending on exposure.

America:


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## loafer89 (Jun 20, 2016)

Here are some pictures from April, 19th, 2015. My son and I skied until last chair at 4:00pm and where among the last to ski Saddleback on closing day. Little did we know that the place would go on the NELSAP list.


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## machski (Jul 6, 2016)

Still not much going on, but sounds like they are still hosting some weddings.

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=453


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## fiddleski (Jul 12, 2016)

Drove up a few weeks ago and there were maintenance and catering trucks at the lodge, so that's something, but there are no current rumors in Rangeley that I have heard, and the speculation is pretty gloomy, to say the least.

I'm not sure what the "recent FB post" referred to in the link is about. There hasn't been any activity on their page since February that I can see...


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## yeggous (Jul 12, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> Drove up a few weeks ago and there were maintenance and catering trucks at the lodge, so that's something, but there are no current rumors in Rangeley that I have heard, and the speculation is pretty gloomy, to say the least.
> 
> I'm not sure what the "recent FB post" referred to in the link is about. There hasn't been any activity on their page since February that I can see...



I think they're still hosting weddings which would explain the limited activity that you saw.


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## bdfreetuna (Jul 12, 2016)

This ski area would probably be the #1 best defunct ski area in North America. Too sad to be true. Only been there for 2 days and it left a lasting impression. Would rather ski Saddleback over almost anywhere else.


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## tipsdown (Jul 13, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> This ski area would probably be the #1 best defunct ski area in North America. Too sad to be true. Only been there for 2 days and it left a lasting impression. Would rather ski Saddleback over almost anywhere else.



That's not an overstatement...I would agree.  When operating, it was consistently the best skiing product in Maine.  The combination of snow quality and varied terrain along with the views was superior to Sunday River, and yes Sugarloaf. And then, the potential...the current skiing footprint barely scratched the surface.  What might have been....


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## fiddleski (Jul 13, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> That's not an overstatement...I would agree.  When operating, it was consistently the best skiing product in Maine.  The combination of snow quality and varied terrain along with the views was superior to Sunday River, and yes Sugarloaf. And then, the potential...the current skiing footprint barely scratched the surface.  What might have been....



This. So sad and frustrating to see it slip away.


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## xwhaler (Jul 13, 2016)

There are no other mtns (in my lifetime) that have gone NELSAP with as much potential (both actual and future dreaming) as Saddleback.
There is so much that is already built up there...with the exception of the Rangeley basically new primary lift, new/gorgeous lodge, awesome terrain, and quite a lot of on mtn condos.

It's not like you are starting from scratch or have old infrastructure and no bed base.....the majority of it is all there.

At this point I'm almost hoping Les runs into so much red tape at the Balsams that he turns his focus westward. Anything to save the place. It's far too special and unique to just fade away.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

The upper mountain does have wind issues but then again so does Sugarloaf.


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## xwhaler (Jul 13, 2016)

Has wind issues sure but the the trails are classically cut new england style terrain that follow the natural fall line and hold snow very well---not wide open boulevards that go straight down (i.e. ice loaf)


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## Puck it (Jul 13, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Has wind issues sure but the the trails are classically cut new england style terrain that follow the natural fall line and hold snow very well---not wide open boulevards that go straight down (i.e. ice loaf)


or Cannonball!!!!


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## xwhaler (Jul 13, 2016)

Puck it said:


> or Cannonball!!!!


Well said---Cannonball is what the majority of SL terrain is.
Wildcat terrain is akin to Saddleback IMHO in terms of how it skis and is cut.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Has wind issues sure but the the trails are classically cut new england style terrain that follow the natural fall line and hold snow very well---not wide open boulevards that go straight down (i.e. ice loaf)



Hold snow because the trails are cut right or because of the low skier volume they received?  I would speculate IF Saddleback had drawn the skier count they would have needed to be sustainable as a business, that snow hold might not be as good as it was.  It's distance is still it's biggest hindrance, with name recognition a strong second.  I bet many outside of core North East skiers wouldn't even recognize the name.


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## xwhaler (Jul 13, 2016)

machski said:


> Hold snow because the trails are cut right or because of the low skier volume they received?  I would speculate IF Saddleback had drawn the skier count they would have needed to be sustainable as a business, that snow hold might not be as good as it was.  It's distance is still it's biggest hindrance, with name recognition a strong second.  I bet many outside of core North East skiers wouldn't even recognize the name.



Both.  The way they are cut, lower skier volume, prevailing wind etc

It's an incredibly well designed mtn to take advantage of the terrain for all ability levels.   I do agree it is a drive but again no further than SL coming from the South


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## xwhaler (Jul 13, 2016)

Also snow qty: Highest annual totals in NH/ME and on par with MRV and north in VT

Quality: Dry and the lack of thaw/freeze events really helps them out.  Then of course they benefit from those cold rain storms that crush VT and NH but then radar flips back to blue when it gets into the high Alpine of Western Maine. Some really awesome/localized snows can crush the mtn when the rest of New England is getting cold rain.


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## bdfreetuna (Jul 13, 2016)

The amount of snow they still had at the close of the 2015 season could have been measured with multiple yard sticks. In the woods.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Has wind issues sure but the the trails are classically cut new england style terrain that follow the natural fall line and hold snow very well---not wide open boulevards that go straight down (i.e. ice loaf)


Lower Rangeley chair yes, sheltered trails. Upper Kennebago chair not so much.


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## fiddleski (Jul 14, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> There are no other mtns (in my lifetime) that have gone NELSAP with as much potential (both actual and future dreaming) as Saddleback.
> There is so much that is already built up there...with the exception of the Rangeley basically new primary lift, new/gorgeous lodge, awesome terrain, and quite a lot of on mtn condos.
> 
> It's not like you are starting from scratch or have old infrastructure and no bed base.....the majority of it is all there.
> ...




I have had the same thought. As far as I can see, Saddleback has far more potential than The Balsams ever could have.


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## dlague (Jul 14, 2016)

Always loved it there especially off the quad.  Sad to see this.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> [/B]
> 
> I have had the same thought. As far as I can see, Saddleback has far more potential than The Balsams ever could have.



+1 

Way, way better mountain. Great lake for summer enjoyment. An actual town at the base. 

Balsams has history, golf and proximity to Montreal going for it.


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## Jully (Jul 14, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Both.  The way they are cut, lower skier volume, prevailing wind etc
> 
> It's an incredibly well designed mtn to take advantage of the terrain for all ability levels.   I do agree it is a drive but again no further than SL coming from the South



SB's about thirty minutes more from the south I think. Relatively insignificant, but definitely influenced me going there over SL sometimes. 

Definitely a well designed mountain though. The trails on the lookers left of the double remind me a bunch of Wildcat.


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## jimk (Jul 14, 2016)

Saddleback is a long way from where I live, but I'd read raves about it on the internet for a decade and I went out of my way to ski it for two days in March 2012 when I finally had a reason to go skiing in Maine for a week.  The views of the Maine lake country, the remote, pristine feel of the mtns in that part of Maine, good snow, extensive glades, and old fashioned trail layout including the very cool and twisty Muleskinner run left me with an impression that Saddleback was one of the neatest ski areas in the Eastern US.
More on that 2012 ski trip to Maine:   http://www.epicski.com/a/skiing-maine-on-a-budget


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## bigbog (Jul 14, 2016)

The past owners just haven't cut as much into the natural forest, *as much* as other areas...
Unfortunately, governments(Federal and local) have let energy(ie = expenditures) become a profit-making tool which promotes the dog-eat-dog world of economics we have today...
Would like to see Federal Gov't set aside the area, with the AT, Saddleback and the Bigelows in the focus, as some sort of northern hike/ski area and have it run like a National Park.
ME State Gov't, the "harlot"(PC) that it is, will kick & scream at the loss of tax revenues...which it wastes..thus trying to get something working at the federal level, is the possible way to go.  Am writing to state Congressional people to at least think about it...fwiw.  Fat chance:smile: but what the heck...


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## mbedle (Jul 14, 2016)

I think the key thing that keeps Saddleback high on the quality scale of ski areas is the lack of traffic. If the Berrys had done what they wanted to do at this place, it would most likely offer a very different ski experience.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 14, 2016)

From NYC SB (230 miles) SL (225 miles). Coming from central VT. as I often did when heading to that area of ME. SB is closer.


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## yeggous (Jul 14, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> From NYC SB (230 miles) SL (225 miles).



And that is the problem. It might as well be the moon. That is a LONG drive. At that point you might as well fly west.


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## tipsdown (Jul 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I think the key thing that keeps Saddleback high on the quality scale of ski areas is the lack of traffic. If the Berrys had done what they wanted to do at this place, it would most likely offer a very different ski experience.



Respectfully, I disagree....The amount of skiable acreage they could expand onto is mind-numbing.  That mountain has a lot more give.  Every peak lookers left of Saddleback proper is in play, along with the West Bowl which is diagonally off the back of the mountain. Aside from a visual easement on the top couple hundred ft. or so of The Horn, it's wide open.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 14, 2016)

yeggous said:


> And that is the problem. It might as well be the moon. That is a LONG drive. At that point you might as well fly west.


Depending on which route I take Killington is between 165 - 185 miles from my house. I do this trip regularly during the winter. I'm actually surprised the difference in mileage is not more.

edit: not surprised anymore. When I went on the ski area websites (SL, SR) the 230/225 mileage is what they gave me from NYC. When I mapquested directions from my house the mileage is 438/444. That's more like I thought it would be.


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## xwhaler (Jul 14, 2016)

Special place for sure---tipsdown is so right...the potential is really insane up there. I highly doubt it would ever get skied out.
Really incredible skiing up there on trail, trees and hike to


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2016)

It would seem to me that the opportunities for growth would really be only in stealing market share from SR and SL.  Grabbing more market share even from Boston would be challenging given the drive. 

 What do people think are the reasons why the Berry's weren't able to steal more customers from SR and SL to make the place profitable with what they built already? Is it the lack of a high speed quad for the Rangeley alone?  Would a new owner need to add all that massive terrain we've seen proposed or does the increased expense associated with the added terrain make the resort even more difficult to sustain?


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## steamboat1 (Jul 14, 2016)

As others have said lack of local lodging is a big reason Saddleback didn't attract more ski vacationers. What little lodging there is in the area is often filled with snowmobilers not skiers. With the lack of natural snow last season even the local lodging establishments had a very tough time. The place where I normally stayed in Rangeley shut down last winter because of lack of business. I hope it was just a seasonal closing.


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## crank (Jul 14, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> As others have said lack of local lodging is a big reason Saddleback didn't attract more ski vacationers. What little lodging there is in the area is often filled with snowmobilers not skiers. With the lack of natural snow last season even the local lodging establishments had a very tough time. The place where I normally stayed in Rangeley shut down last winter because of lack of business. I hope it was just a seasonal closing.



The one time I stayed in Rangeley there were so many sleds ripping around Friday night that I couldn't get to sleep until after 2AM because of all the noise.  THEy may have been there Saturday as well but I was too tired to notice.


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## fiddleski (Jul 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It would seem to me that the opportunities for growth would really be only in stealing market share from SR and SL.  Grabbing more market share even from Boston would be challenging given the drive.
> 
> What do people think are the reasons why the Berry's weren't able to steal more customers from SR and SL to make the place profitable with what they built already? Is it the lack of a high speed quad for the Rangeley alone?  Would a new owner need to add all that massive terrain we've seen proposed or does the increased expense associated with the added terrain make the resort even more difficult to sustain?



Regarding the "more customers", I was always under the impression that they operated pretty much at capacity on weekends, at least the with respect to the Rangeley double. The times I was there were on weekdays, when it was pretty empty.

The second question is the key, but even with that, I would think everything hinges on developing the real estate market on the mountain and building a hotel. Large scale ski resort development seems like a tough financing challenge these days, unless you commit fraud...


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## jimk (Jul 14, 2016)

Nice photo xwhaler!   I never made the hike to the summit above the ski trails in my two days there.  We drove from the Washington DC area to Saddleback, ME in about 12 hours and spent three nights in the Maine Roadhouse Hostel north of Rangeley for $20 each per night. It’s convenient to Saddleback (and Sugarloaf) and there were never more than two or three others staying in the hostel during our visit. In addition to a large bunkroom and several individual bedrooms, it has a kitchen where we inexpensively prepared our own meals.  It also had what I could only describe as a large "party" room.  This was a big room with a piano in it and some couches, chairs and table and it's own restroom IIRC.  This facility quit operating the next year.  I am not sure why.  It seemed to have an association with a sister lodging place in nearby Stratton, ME.  When I was there in 2012 I kept thinking this Roadhouse would be a fabulous place to bring a club or group of about 25 budget minded skiers/boarders for a long weekend.  It was about ten miles from SBK.  There was a friendly guy there about age 65-70 who rented one of the individual bedrooms for a couple months for dirt cheap and was skiing at Sugarloaf most of the time.  I think he was a former patroller or instructor there and met friends everyday on the mtn.


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## shwilly (Jul 14, 2016)

Ah, the Roadhouse. I spent many a happy evening there.

I guess they just didn't have the business to make it profitable. One night we had the "party" room to ourselves to watch the Pats-Chargers playoff game. Fun, but I can believe they weren't making much money.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 14, 2016)

We rented cottages in town right on Rangeley Lake. Each cottage had two bedrooms that slept two to a room. Each cottage had a full kitchen & was stocked with pots, pans & utensils. Cable TV too. A nice outside porch which was nice on warm spring afternoons. When we first started going there a cottage was about $90 per night. They're now $175 per night (weekdays) & $225 (weekends). Still not a bad deal.

http://rangeleytownandlake.com/


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## tipsdown (Jul 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It would seem to me that the opportunities for growth would really be only in stealing market share from SR and SL.  Grabbing more market share even from Boston would be challenging given the drive.
> 
> What do people think are the reasons why the Berry's weren't able to steal more customers from SR and SL to make the place profitable with what they built already? Is it the lack of a high speed quad for the Rangeley alone?  Would a new owner need to add all that massive terrain we've seen proposed or does the increased expense associated with the added terrain make the resort even more difficult to sustain?



2 things...The Berry's made plenty of mistakes along the way...that's been well documented.  In a rural area the margin for error is considerably smaller and they know that as well as anyone.  But, 2 things happened that jettisoned the plan.  One, they overspent for the Lodge, which pushed out the timeline (indefinitely) for the Rangeley replacement of a HSQ. The running joke is that the new quad is buried in the lodge somewhere.  And 2, the recession happened and real estate slowed at a critical time in their development plan. Had they been further along, they likely would have been able to absorb more. So, they weren't going to sell more real estate without a new lift and they weren't going to buy a new lift without selling more real estate.  The family threw in the towel as the recession ended.  When the Berry's bought it, there was ALOT needed to make the place a viable ski area.  The irony of all this is now, the place is very close to being ready for the next level.  Infrastructure-wise, everything is set and ready to go. They could accommodate another 1200 beds tomorrow as I understand it...Permitting and Utilities are in place. They hit a ceiling at about 100k visits and they wanted 130k plus to be sustainable with a cushion...If you do the math on a 100+ day season... there's not a lot of ground to make up.  A shiny new lift alone probably gets you close, if not there....The residual impact of the new lift i.e. new real estate, hotel...would. The real estate market hasn't been hotter in 10 years and we're back at all time highs in the stock market. The economy is chugging along...You have to think that someone can pull together $15mil of working capital and get a deal done...


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## cdskier (Jul 15, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Depending on which route I take Killington is between 165 - 185 miles from my house. I do this trip regularly during the winter. I'm actually surprised the difference in mileage is not more.
> 
> edit: not surprised anymore. When I went on the ski area websites (SL, SR) the 230/225 mileage is what they gave me from NYC. When I mapquested directions from my house the mileage is 438/444. That's more like I thought it would be.



I was going to say there was absolutely no way 230 from NYC to anywhere in ME was right. From North Jersey to Sugarbush is just under 300 for me. If it was <250 to ME I would easily go there. Anything under 300 isn't a big deal to me.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 15, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I was going to say there was absolutely no way 230 from NYC to anywhere in ME was right. From North Jersey to Sugarbush is just under 300 for me. If it was <250 to ME I would easily go there. Anything under 300 isn't a big deal to me.


You didn't catch my error with my mileage to Killington. It's not 165-185 miles from my house. It should have read 265-285 miles, usually about a 5 hour drive. Not a big deal to me either but definitely not day trip range.


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## bdfreetuna (Jul 15, 2016)

I don't think they made a lot of money at 75pp per night including lift tickets in a brand new well equipped slopeside condo.


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## xwhaler (Jul 15, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I don't think they made a lot of money at 75pp per night including lift tickets in a brand new well equipped slopeside condo.



That is also part of the problem and I say this as a real passionate Saddleback fan. Currently there are very few revenue streams with which they can make $ on once you have paid for lodging and lift tickets.
Their bar/restaurant may be open for dinner but beyond that there is nothing on mtn. If you want entertainment apres ski you have to drive 7 miles back down into Rangeley.

Of course an on mtn hotel, some summer revenue streams (zip line, MTB, etc) could change that but right now its show up and ski and then stay in Rangeley or stay on mtn and play checkers/drink in the condos.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2016)

That lack of on mountain apres ski activities maybe a big part of why they didn't pull as much business away from Sugarloaf as they needed to be viable.   Sugarloaf you park the car for the weekend and everything you need is right there.  I love that aspect of the Loaf. 

Did SB offer a shuttle from the condos into Rangeley?


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jul 15, 2016)

The only shortcoming of SB is low vertical for the terrain they have.I'm sure nobody here skis below the lodge so leaves about 1550 ft of vert.


----------



## Edd (Jul 15, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Did SB offer a shuttle from the condos into Rangeley?



No, which is inconvenient with booze and all.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> The only shortcoming of SB is low vertical for the terrain they have.I'm sure nobody here skis below the lodge so leaves about 1550 ft of vert.



True, but a lot of times at Sugarloaf or Sunday River you're skiing in the 1000-1500 vert range unless you're skiing off the Super Quad. I don't think vertical is that big of a deal at SB. 

I say this as someone who prefers big vertical skiing off fast lifts. Hence why Wildcat is my favorite NH area and Stowe my favorite VT area.


----------



## jimk (Jul 15, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> True, but a lot of times at Sugarloaf or Sunday River you're skiing in the 1000-1500 vert range unless you're skiing off the Super Quad. I don't think vertical is that big of a deal at SB.
> 
> I say this as someone who prefers big vertical skiing off fast lifts. Hence why Wildcat is my favorite NH area and Stowe my favorite VT area.



This thread needs some pics 

Lots of Vertical off fast lift at Wildcat:






There's something about Saddleback:


----------



## xwhaler (Jul 15, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> True, but a lot of times at Sugarloaf or Sunday River you're skiing in the 1000-1500 vert range unless you're skiing off the Super Quad. I don't think vertical is that big of a deal at SB.
> 
> I say this as someone who prefers big vertical skiing off fast lifts. Hence why Wildcat is my favorite NH area and Stowe my favorite VT area.



Absolutely.  Lap the Kennebago all day and I guarantee you won't leave saying I wish I had more vertical.
Heck even when lapping the Cupsuptic at 800ish vert you can still get some awesome varied terrain


----------



## dlague (Jul 15, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It would seem to me that the opportunities for growth would really be only in stealing market share from SR and SL.  Grabbing more market share even from Boston would be challenging given the drive.
> 
> What do people think are the reasons why the Berry's weren't able to steal more customers from SR and SL to make the place profitable with what they built already? Is it the lack of a high speed quad for the Rangeley alone?  Would a new owner need to add all that massive terrain we've seen proposed or does the increased expense associated with the added terrain make the resort even more difficult to sustain?



SL and SR did and do a boat load more marketing.  Lodging is another issue but we have always been able to find a condo for rent everything we went.  There plenty of building lots that probably will never get developed which could have led to more lodging.


----------



## Cat in January (Jul 16, 2016)

Has anything happened other than the passage of time to spark this discussion?

Really like the hill, but just hard to see the revenue making it work.


----------



## Edd (Jul 16, 2016)

Cat in January said:


> Has anything happened other than the passage of time to spark this discussion?



Don't think so. As closed hills in New England go, this is probably the most tragic case yet.


----------



## dlague (Jul 16, 2016)

Edd said:


> Don't think so. As closed hills in New England go, this is probably the most tragic case yet.



Very true!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 16, 2016)

I don't think it's a permanent situation.


----------



## Edd (Jul 16, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't think it's a permanent situation.



I very much hope you're right. Any predictions as to a way out?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 16, 2016)

Edd said:


> I very much hope you're right. Any predictions as to a way out?



Yeah money. To much already invested to let it sit idle. Unfortunately the Berry's won't recoup much of their investment but someone will scoop it up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2016)

Edd said:


> Don't think so. As closed hills in New England go, this is probably the most tragic case yet.



The fact that they missed a ski season is huge.  That really shakes confidence for folks.  If they go for two it will really be hard for them to win back credibility.  Something is really wrong here.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 17, 2016)

I wonder how strongly they are marketing the sale of the resort nationally.  Could the hold up be simply that they are not on the radar of prospective buyers due to the relative obscurity of the place?


----------



## tipsdown (Jul 18, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder how strongly they are marketing the sale of the resort nationally.  Could the hold up be simply that they are not on the radar of prospective buyers due to the relative obscurity of the place?



Very good question...


----------



## Mapnut (Jul 18, 2016)

What do you think if a prospective new owner built on-site, instead of a hotel, a plain old motel with 100 rooms that could rent for $90 a night? That would help the beds situation but leave money for lifts.


----------



## vermonter44 (Jul 18, 2016)

The only lift that needs replacement is rangeley. Would a hsq be good for here or could they get away with a fgq with carpet


----------



## sull1102 (Jul 18, 2016)

vermonter44 said:


> The only lift that needs replacement is rangeley. Would a hsq be good for here or could they get away with a fgq with carpet



I would think if you really have your eye on SL skiers coming over, you'd want a high speed quad at least to help get their attention.

Could it be an issue of a buyers market? Coming in the next year or two a premier New England player is going to be on the market for next to nothing at Jay. Then there's Burke for the guy that wants to spend $10-million or less. Waterville is also supposedly on the market in New Hampshire. There's some good mountains up for grabs that are fully functioning year round, built out resorts.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 18, 2016)

I think the lift choice depends on how and to whom they want to market the mountain.  

The Rangeley is about the same length/vert as Skyline, so a similar non-highspeed lift would be fine. It would also help keep the price of lift tickets down due to cheaper acquisition and maintenance costs compared with a HSQ. 

I would think focusing on offering a better value than Sugarloaf at a smaller, but equally great mountain with less crowds would be the best direction to go with the place until more real estate is developed and the captive audience is grown.


----------



## tipsdown (Jul 18, 2016)

Agreed...Maybe a signature lift would be more appropriate a bit further down the road...However, there was discussion of lengthening the replacement lift...The lift would terminate out near America and there would be a build out of additional intermediate terrain in that area.  If that were to happen a High speed lift should be the only option as it would lengthen the trip to 1,600-1700k vert.


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## xwhaler (Jul 18, 2016)

At one point I had heard he Berrys were looking to sell the mtn and condos but not much beyond the ski area footprint.
This would dramatically limit the potential I would think as any owner would likely want to maximize the possibility of using all the land.
The land is what has the real value one would think---the mtn is a liability and loses $ generally speaking.

At one point I read the Berrys owned upwards of 8k acres there.


----------



## xwhaler (Jul 18, 2016)

From this article----if that is still the case I can see why the mtn hasn't sold.

The asking price is $12 million for 400 acres of property that includes the ski trails and lifts, the base lodge and most of the surrounding 121 units.
The Berry family will keep 7,600 of the 8,000 acres it bought 10 years ago and hopes to remain involved with the ski area in some capacity.

http://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/14/saddleback-for-sale-berry-family/


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## mbedle (Jul 18, 2016)

Based on the 400 acres, that doesn't leave any room for expansion. I did some quick measurements by just outlying the outer runs and the condos at the base and actually came up with 539 acres. I am not sure how they are coming up with only 400 acres. You would think they would have a better chance of selling the place if they offer at least some of the land north of the resort in the deal.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 18, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> What do you think if a prospective new owner built on-site, instead of a hotel, a plain old motel with 100 rooms that could rent for $90 a night? That would help the beds situation but leave money for lifts.



I like this idea. Start small and affordable.  Attach a restaurant to it to address some of the apres ski needs.


----------



## machski (Jul 18, 2016)

After this season, any new owner has to focus on snowmaking improvements first if they want to compete against SL.  If the Berry's are still trying to hold onto the majority of land and all the other needs the ski area has, o wish them well but doubt they will be selling any time soon.


----------



## tipsdown (Jul 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Based on the 400 acres, that doesn't leave any room for expansion. I did some quick measurements by just outlying the outer runs and the condos at the base and actually came up with 539 acres. I am not sure how they are coming up with only 400 acres. You would think they would have a better chance of selling the place if they offer at least some of the land north of the resort in the deal.



All 7-8k acres are now in play from what I understand....


----------



## yeggous (Jul 19, 2016)

tipsdown said:


> All 7-8k acres are now in play from what I understand....



Would it be fair to say this was not the Berry's first choice? Bad timing all around.


----------



## Cat in January (Jul 19, 2016)

Made  the Portland Press Herald today
http://www.pressherald.com/2016/07/...ts-voice-concerns-if-saddleback-remains-idle/


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2016)

Guessing that's Salsgang quoted in the article?


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jul 19, 2016)

At least Les Otten thinks it's bound to reopen in that article.


----------



## machski (Jul 20, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> At least Les Otten thinks it's bound to reopen in that article.



He thinks it should, but he noted early in the article that if it remains closed this season, the inertia is against it reopening.  Even DB would like to see it reopen but they all echo the same sentiments about remaining closed to the ability to reopen.  Think about it, the Berry's have had to supplement the operation every year since '08.  So that means that if it stays closed and you loose some of your loyal skier base, that supplement becomes even greater for years likely after you reopen (unless you make a huge upgrade splash prior to re-opening).  Thus, why Les said as you remain closed, to re-open you need a different type of buyer from the buyer who would buy an operating resort.


----------



## bigbog (Jul 20, 2016)

Sounds like Les still has an interest...y/n?


----------



## tree_skier (Jul 20, 2016)

i would think that les is tied up with the Balsams.  However if he could condo up those 8000 acres???????? it would be interesting to see him have a go and give us something to talk about besides hail at jay


----------



## skiMEbike (Jul 21, 2016)

Interesting post from C Farmer (Saddleback GM) on Sugarloaf chat....

http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7259&start=660


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## tipsdown (Jul 21, 2016)

"I speak on almost a daily basis with the Buyer who is wrapping up his details to complete the transaction" 

Sounds encouraging but we'll just have to wait and see...Interesting for sure.  Lots of permits.  Sounds like there will be some big changes if this goes through.


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## ironhippy (Jul 21, 2016)

I probably posted this already in this thread, but my (very small) local hill sold last year.

The perspective buyers were assembled in March/April and began their negotiations and diligence in April/May. They had the money and the will.

The deal did not close until the end of September and was cutting it VERY close to interfering with the season. The buyers kept saying "we'll know more next week" all summer long (and weren't lying).

These things take time.


----------



## salsgang (Jul 21, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Guessing that's Salsgang quoted in the article?




Yup that was me trying to be diplomatic. 

I sure hope like hell that something gets done in the next week or two or three. Sounds like a buyer is STILL in play. According the the farmer post referenced above, there is still hope but...

Out of frustration and doing something to try stay supportive, I created an online petition to show support for saddleback and encourage the successful conclusion of the sale. Give it a read and sign & share if you are so willing.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/450/749/437/i-would-come-back-to-saddleback-maine/


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## fiddleski (Jul 22, 2016)

Putting together Chris Farmer's post and Les Otten's comments in the article, it might seems like whoever the buyer is, it's not LBO. I wouldn't think he would comment at all if he were involved.

At least there's hope. Best of luck to Chris.


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## salsgang (Jul 22, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> I know the petition won't force a sale, but it will show there is support for people who want to ski Saddleback, which just might spur the sale. Signed.



Thank you uphillklimber. 73 signers just a few hours in. Hopefully the news of the petition keeps spreading.


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## Jully (Jul 22, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> Putting together Chris Farmer's post and Les Otten's comments in the article, it might seems like whoever the buyer is, it's not LBO. I wouldn't think he would comment at all if he were involved.
> 
> At least there's hope. Best of luck to Chris.



On the Sugarloaf Today site Chris sounded pretty frustrated at the situation and at some people's attitudes towards the whole situation. It's certainly a tough spot to be in, but I'm glad theres still hope! 

Any good will sent Chris's way I'm sure is appreciated.


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## bdfreetuna (Jul 22, 2016)

Well that's encouraging to read from Chris. Thanks for the link!


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 22, 2016)

I signed it.  I've never skied there.  But I want to ski there.


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## prsboogie (Jul 22, 2016)

Signed! Never skied it but have a good friend with a condo on mountain, needs to be opened


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## steamboat1 (Jul 23, 2016)

Signed, I need a good reason to get back to Rangeley in winter.


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## JDMRoma (Jul 23, 2016)

Signed ! Never been but wanted too last season. Hope it re opens. ⛷


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## steamboat1 (Jul 23, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> Hmmmmm.... I don't see my original signature, so I signed again. If you end up with two similar signatures and comments, that's me.


Same here, signed it last night but don't see my signature or comment.


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## bigbog (Jul 23, 2016)

Yes, signed yesterday.....  Here's hoping...


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## salsgang (Jul 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Same here, signed it last night but don't see my signature or comment.



Hmm - not sure what is going on. If you want to PM me your name I can check.

Over 200+ signatures a day in. Not bad - keep spreading the word! Would be great to get to 1000 somehow.


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## JDMRoma (Jul 24, 2016)

I tried to share on Facebook but it didn't work. 


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## chuckstah (Jul 24, 2016)

Signed.  Hope it helps.  Certainly can not hurt.


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## dlague (Jul 24, 2016)

JDMRoma said:


> I tried to share on Facebook but it didn't work.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I copies the link and pasted  on Facebook to posted it because the Facebook button on the sight was not working.


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## JDMRoma (Jul 24, 2016)

dlague said:


> I copies the link and pasted  on Facebook to posted it because the Facebook button on the sight was not working.



Nice Dave ! Smarty pants !
It worked !

Facebook should give it some exposure !


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## salsgang (Jul 26, 2016)

salsgang said:


> Hmm - not sure what is going on. If you want to PM me your name I can check.
> 
> Over 200+ signatures a day in. Not bad - keep spreading the word! Would be great to get to 1000 somehow.



Up over 360 signatures now. Overwhelming majority of the posted comments are positive and describe what a special place Saddleback is for them. Thanks for helping spread the word - Would love to get to 1000 - I know they are out there! Just have to find them...


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## Cornhead (Jul 27, 2016)

Signed


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## dlague (Jul 27, 2016)

ski-industry-experts-voice-concerns-if-saddleback-remains-idle

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/07/...ts-voice-concerns-if-saddleback-remains-idle/


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## Edd (Jul 30, 2016)

Signed also. I expected emails after giving info on this petition but I'm also getting texts from people I don't know since I've signed it. Honestly can't remember if I gave my phone # or not.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 1, 2016)

In the meantime, if anyone is interested for nostalgia:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-SAD...angeley-Maine-Trail-Map-Skiing-/152188558925?


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## salsgang (Aug 7, 2016)

We ended up getting over 860 signatures on the petition. Thanks to all those on this forum who signed and those who did not sign but took the time to read it. We have printed it out and will be delivering to all parties in the coming days. Fingers crossed and hoping for the best for a successful resolution.


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## tipsdown (Jun 6, 2017)

Signs of Life?  These new stakes showed up in the ground over the weekend....Apparently a group of Australian investors are close to striking a deal...


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2017)

Sad.  So sad.  A game of chicken in which skiers and riders were all losers.


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## Jully (Jun 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Sad.  So sad.  A game of chicken in which skiers and riders *are* all losers.



Game's not over yet. There has still been no check cut as of yesterday. This is at least according to Chris Farmer on the SL forum.


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## oldtimer (Jun 6, 2017)

I take a long term view.  If ANYONE comes in and has the capital to replace the lower lift and otherwise improves the skiing product that improves the long term prospects.  Don't like this week's buyer?  standby and enjoy the product they put out while they put it out.  Then be ready to rinse and repeat after a number of years.   Under-capitalized sucks.

In VT we lovingly call this the Burke model.  Maybe the next owner will be the one that figures out how to stay in the black.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Game's not over yet. There has still been no check cut as of yesterday. This is at least according to Chris Farmer on the SL forum.



I'm referring to the Berry's and the State of Maine from 2015.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> In VT we lovingly call this the Burke model.  Maybe the next owner will be the one that figures out how to stay in the black.



Ouch.  Harsh.


----------



## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 6, 2017)

I am really hoping the Saddleback Mountain Foundation model to be the one that brings this mountain back to life.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 6, 2017)

I would give any buyer and certainly anyone who puts Saddleback back in action the benefit of the doubt.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 6, 2017)

That part of Maine needs a east- west 4 lane highway to open that area up and cut down travel time. The only way I see it working as a for profit situation.


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## Jully (Jun 6, 2017)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> That part of Maine needs a east- west 4 lane highway to open that area up and cut down travel time. The only way I see it working as a for profit situation.



How much travel time would that cut down? It is mostly just in the middle of nowhere. You can go a good clip up 26, 4, and 27 from 95. I think SB can be profitable given the right approach.


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## Jully (Jun 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm referring to the Berry's and the State of Maine from 2015.



That is fair. I was mostly being facicious anyways. 



oldtimer said:


> I take a long term view.  If ANYONE comes in and has the capital to replace the lower lift and otherwise improves the skiing product that improves the long term prospects.  Don't like this week's buyer?  standby and enjoy the product they put out while they put it out.  Then be ready to rinse and repeat after a number of years.   Under-capitalized sucks.
> 
> In VT we lovingly call this the Burke model.  Maybe the next owner will be the one that figures out how to stay in the black.





thetrailboss said:


> Ouch.  Harsh.



Honestly though, part of what screwed the Berry's was the $40 million they put into the place. Someone acquiring the area with $8 million of debt instead of $40 million may just be able to turn a profit.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2017)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> That part of Maine needs a east- west 4 lane highway to open that area up and cut down travel time. The only way I see it working as a for profit situation.


This has been proposed as a way to better connect Maine ports with PQ, but it would be too far north of SB & SL to benefit the area.







Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 10, 2017)

Doubt we see an East/West in our lifetimes.


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## Jully (Jun 10, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Doubt we see an East/West in our lifetimes.



Agreed


----------



## Edd (Jun 17, 2017)

tipsdown said:


> Signs of Life?  These new stakes showed up in the ground over the weekend....Apparently a group of Australian investors are close to striking a deal...
> View attachment 22643View attachment 22644



Just heard a rumor that Dopplemeyer was there checking the lifts for these investors and an announcement is possible next week.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 17, 2017)

Edd said:


> Just heard a rumor that Dopplemeyer was there checking the lifts for these investors and an announcement is possible next week.



Boy, I really hope so.  The longer this drags out the more nervous I become.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jun 20, 2017)

Just got the latest SMF newsletter. After reading this I'm kind of rooting for the foreign investor with "big plans". The Saddleback Mountain Foundation seems really unfocused in terms of operating a ski resort first and foremost.


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 27, 2017)

BIG NEWS!!!!
http://www.pressherald.com/2017/06/27/saddleback-reaches-historic-deal-for-resorts-future/


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## Jully (Jun 27, 2017)

Absolutely incredible news! Very excited to hear.


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## dlague (Jun 27, 2017)

Will be interesting to see what happens next with the Rangley Double after the sale is complete!


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## tipsdown (Jun 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> Will be interesting to see what happens next with the Rangley Double after the sale is complete!



Huge news!


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## xwhaler (Jun 27, 2017)

Finally!   My home my for 3 seasons back before kids.   Such a true gem

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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

Right, but WHO is the buyer (or buyah)?


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## Jully (Jun 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but WHO is the buyer (or buyah)?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Word on the street is it is the Australian group that's been kicking the tires for awhile now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

Jully said:


> Word on the street is it is the Australian group that's been kicking the tires for awhile now.



Interesting. What's their connection to the area?


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## machski (Jun 27, 2017)

Great news, horrible article.

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----------



## cdskier (Jun 27, 2017)

machski said:


> Great news, horrible article.



Not a fan of the announcement of an announcement coming tomorrow?


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## bigbog (Jun 28, 2017)

All I know is that one can get a clear shot at Bruce Polequin today....:lol: 
Good news that someone has interest.....10am today.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 28, 2017)

bigbog said:


> All I know is that one can get a clear shot at Bruce Polequin today....:lol:



And you mean what by this?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

The ski area's website is no longer active and it automatically redirects you to saddleback realty's website. Guessing they are updating it to provide information about the sale.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 28, 2017)

machski said:


> Great news, horrible article.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



A poorly written, disjointed article for sure.


----------



## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting. What's their connection to the area?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Honestly have no idea. I'll be interested in their big plans, but after what happened to the Berry's big plans, I'll be happy just with a few more years of operations. 

As for SMF, they'll continue to sit in a holding pattern and slowly fade away would be my guess. It would be cool to see them continue to have a presence around the mountain, kind of like Friends of Burke without the tension involved in that situation. 

Their latest update made them seem unhappy with the plans of the investors, so I doubt they will try to work with them.


----------



## bigbog (Jun 28, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> And you mean what by this?



poking fun at how he has ended up voting in the past by what he said come election time....


----------



## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Is anybody at this announcement this morning? Website back up, but only a new homepage, with just a picture.


----------



## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Is anybody at this announcement this morning? Website back up, but only a new homepage, with just a picture.



Supposedly the conference will be posted online somewhere directly after it finishes. Word was that someone from SMF was going to FB live it, but I can't find it anywhere.


----------



## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

Majella Group is the name of the Australians buying it.

"Majella is an Australian based, multinational company operating in a number of sectors including technology, design, engineering, project management, consulting services, property developments and financial services."

http://majellagroup.com/


----------



## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

http://www.pressherald.com/2017/06/28/australian-developer-buys-saddleback-ski-resort/


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2017)

Jully said:


> Majella Group is the name of the Australians buying it.
> 
> "Majella is an Australian based, multinational company operating in a number of sectors including technology, design, engineering, project management, consulting services, property developments and financial services."
> 
> http://majellagroup.com/



Sounds like the CEO is buying it and not the Majella Group:



> At a press conference this morning at Saddleback, Sebastian Monsour, chief executive officer of the Majella Group, was announced as the buyer of Maine’s third-largest ski area.





> An opening date for Saddleback has not yet been set, as the deal with Monsour is not even 24 hours old, according to Fred LaMontagne, who will be managing resort operations as chief executive officer.



The article also mentions that he has been in Portland for some time looking for opportunities.  Interesting.  Hopefully it is a good winter for them and they can make it go.  Does he have any ski resort experience?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Great news for you saddleback skiers. Looks like they are set to invest some money into the place. I feel bad for the SMF, I am sure they put a lot of effort into closing on a deal. I think their biggest mistake was going from a co-op to a membership based plan. I would have sunk 2k into the place just to say I own a ski resort...


----------



## Mapnut (Jun 28, 2017)

Interesting that a diverse conglomerate with a "Property" division would buy a ski area 10,000 miles away. I'll bet there's a skier in a high position with interests or maybe part-time residency in New England. If I was in that position with millions of bucks available, I'd certainly try to talk my bosses into buying Saddleback (of all the ski areas available in New England). Now that we no longer need to speculate about "who", we can speculate about "why". Hopefully we'll soon be hearing about "what next".


----------



## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Mapnut said:


> Interesting that a diverse conglomerate with a "Property" division would buy a ski area 10,000 miles away. I'll bet there's a skier in a high position with interests or maybe part-time residency in New England. If I was in that position with millions of bucks available, I'd certainly try to talk my bosses into buying Saddleback (of all the ski areas available in New England). Now that we no longer need to speculate about "who", we can speculate about "why". Hopefully we'll soon be hearing about "what next".



They have an office in Portland. They mentioned in the conference that they have already hired Doppelmayr to replace the double with a fixed quad and one of the t-bar with a surface lift.


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like the CEO is buying it and not the Majella Group:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unclear if he is buying it or if the group is buying it... he's appointed the CEO of the American operations of Majella to be the CEO of Saddleback.

He has no ski area experience that I can tell. He first discovered the area in 2011 while on a tour of the US. Not totally clear how he discovered Saddleback, he just said he ended up in Maine. Wanted to buy SB just because its "hard."


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

mbedle said:


> They have an office in Portland. They mentioned in the conference that they have already hired Doppelmayr to replace the double with a fixed quad and one of the t-bar with a surface lift.



Quad has a capacity of 1,500 skiers an hour while their surface lift replacement has a capacity of 1,200 skiers per hour. Both of those seem very odd. So the quad will have reduced capacity by a lot?


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## xwhaler (Jun 28, 2017)

All details here. The quad is doubling the capacity from 750 to 1500 skiers/hr

http://www.majellagroup.com/saddlebackmaine/qanda-saddleback-june17.pdf


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## dlague (Jun 28, 2017)

We he is certainly a developer so expect that to be the focus for sure.  He also has been finding funds globally (mostly China) for investment opportunities in Australia and Unites States.

Tie to Portland which might have led to SB.



> And that’s what we’re also offering in Portland, Maine. There will be up to 300 apartments combined with a convention and entertainment centre, veterans’ administration centre and hospital, retail and commercial space for restaurants, cafés and boutique outlets, all embracing a precinct laneway design that will highlight the waterfront location and the area’s history. It will add to the urban renewal of a prime Casco Bay waterfront site.



Here is an interview with Sebastian in 2016

https://www.theurbandeveloper.com/sebastian-monsour-majella-property/


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 28, 2017)

Thank you Majella Group!

Saddleback Mountain Foundation thank you for keeping the flame alive in the minds of many including myself. In some ways I wished you had succeeded but your recent newsletters starting getting wacky with this PEACE initiative.

I am glad someone has procured the mountain so that people may enjoy skiing there again ASAP. Good luck and best wishes to the new investors.

They are replacing not only the Rangely Double with a quad but also the Cupstatic T-bar with a chair lift. Hopefully opening this season and probably so. Further expansion plans may be back in play now that we aren't mainly focusing on making this a nature preserve. Great news for skiers!


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Thank you Majella Group!
> 
> Saddleback Mountain Foundation thank you for keeping the flame alive in the minds of many including myself. In some ways I wished you had succeeded but your recent newsletters starting getting wacky with this PEACE initiative.
> 
> I am glad someone has procured the mountain so that people may enjoy skiing there again ASAP. Good luck and best wishes to the new investors.



+1 nicely said. Agree with your sentiments about SMF.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> All details here. The quad is doubling the capacity from 750 to 1500 skiers/hr
> 
> http://www.majellagroup.com/saddlebackmaine/qanda-saddleback-june17.pdf



A thorough and direct response IMHO.  Also prudent to not go overboard on the new lift.  An HSQ is expensive to build and operate.  Doesn't sound like the demand is there.  A new fixed grip lift should be fine.  Seems like they are being cautious and prudent and in it for the long term.  Fingers crossed.

The only criticism I have, again, is for the former owners who engaged in a game of chicken with the State and others with the loyal skiers, riders, and employees as the losers.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 28, 2017)

In addition to another chair lift replacing the Cup T-bar. You could do nice runs off the T-bar, as I know from when the other lifts are closed to wind... I don't think overcrowding or lines were ever this resorts actual problem.


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> In addition to another chair lift replacing the Cup T-bar. You could do nice runs off the T-bar, as I know from when the other lifts are closed to wind... I don't think overcrowding or lines were ever this resorts actual problem.



I believe it is a surface lift replacing the t bar


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## Newpylong (Jun 28, 2017)

T-Bar for T-Bar as I read it.


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## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> T-Bar for T-Bar as I read it.



I agree - I think they are putting in a high speed t-bar. I guess I didn't originally think that when they stated surface lift. Was thinking magic carpet.


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I agree - I think they are putting in a high speed t-bar. I guess I didn't originally think that when they stated surface lift. Was thinking magic carpet.



Haha, definitely not a magic carpet. I'm not totally versed on what exactly a high speed t-bar is. The press release said a "Higher-speed surface lift" so it is unclear if higher speed = high speed or just newer, because that original t-bar is from the 60s I believe.


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## Newpylong (Jun 28, 2017)

The newer Dopp TBars are speced for just under 700 FPM they really move.


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> The newer Dopp TBars are speced for just under 700 FPM they really move.



That's crazy. I suspect that is what they are getting then.


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## mbedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Jully said:


> That's crazy. I suspect that is what they are getting then.



Isn't that what they are installing at Burke?


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## Jully (Jun 28, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Isn't that what they are installing at Burke?



Not sure if Dopp is doing that install, but Burke is also getting a purported "high speed" t-bar, you're right. I'd call 700 fpm high speed. Not sure if anything runs any faster than that.


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## Newpylong (Jun 28, 2017)

Nothing that is not detachable.


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## SkiFanE (Jun 29, 2017)

Would this T-bar be to get to expert slopes?  They were a mainstay in my youth - but many skiers can't handle a carpet loader onto a chair - going to hilarious to see newbies on T bars. I think it's a great thing - but seems a little too hardcore for your average skier. Although I love how it could sort out the levels of skiers.


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## dlague (Jun 29, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Would this T-bar be to get to expert slopes?  They were a mainstay in my youth - but many skiers can't handle a carpet loader onto a chair - going to hilarious to see newbies on T bars. I think it's a great thing - but seems a little too hardcore for your average skier. Although I love how it could sort out the levels of skiers.



The T-Bar is to replace the T-bar that is already there only faster.  So is the T-bar for expert terrain - No mostly intermediate terrain.  Nothing hardcore about T-bars.  T-bars are used by beginners and alll other levels all over the place so I do not see anything funny there.  My kids used them at 5 years old.  Poma lifts are a different story.    Even carpet loaders are not a big deal Okemo has one for their beginner area albeit only on A Lift.  I did not see mention of a carpet loader.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2017)

Jully said:


> Not sure if Dopp is doing that install, but Burke is also getting a purported "high speed" t-bar, you're right. I'd call 700 fpm high speed. Not sure if anything runs any faster than that.



I've heard that Leitner-Poma is doing Burke.


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## xwhaler (Jun 29, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Would this T-bar be to get to expert slopes?  They were a mainstay in my youth - but many skiers can't handle a carpet loader onto a chair - going to hilarious to see newbies on T bars. I think it's a great thing - but seems a little too hardcore for your average skier. Although I love how it could sort out the levels of skiers.


Plenty of terrain and glades to challenge advanced skiers by lapping the T bar

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Jun 29, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I've heard that Leitner-Poma is doing Burke.



It is, and not sure which model they're getting but LP does offer detachable versions which exceed 700 fpm.


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## cdskier (Jun 29, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I've heard that Leitner-Poma is doing Burke.



Dopp is pretty busy in the northeast as is this summer it seems. They have the work at Saddleback that was mentioned in this thread, the two 2 new quads at Sugarbush, the gondola at Belleayre... What else am I missing?


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## Dickc (Jun 29, 2017)

You are forgetting the Spruce chair at Sunday River.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> It is, and not sure which model they're getting but LP does offer detachable versions which exceed 700 fpm.



Good question.  I know that the new T-Bar at Burke supposedly will have a 1,000 skier per hour capacity.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jul 27, 2017)

I received a refund check yesterday in the mail from SMCR


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 2, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> Plenty of terrain and glades to challenge advanced skiers by lapping the T bar
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Definitely. The Wooly Bugger glade alone is good for multiple laps. Golden Smelt is a great bump run. And several very nice cruisers with some pitch.


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## dlague (Aug 2, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Would this T-bar be to get to expert slopes?  They were a mainstay in my youth - but many skiers can't handle a carpet loader onto a chair - going to hilarious to see newbies on T bars. I think it's a great thing - but seems a little too hardcore for your average skier. Although I love how it could sort out the levels of skiers.





xwhaler said:


> Plenty of terrain and glades to challenge advanced skiers by lapping the T bar
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



There is a traverse that can get you to Kennebago Lift.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2017)

No pass prices or information yet.  Still a bare-bones website:  http://majellagroup.com/saddlebackmaine/


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## machski (Aug 3, 2017)

Have to think at this point this isn't happening this year.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2017)

machski said:


> Have to think at this point this isn't happening this year.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



You think so?


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## Edd (Aug 3, 2017)

machski said:


> Have to think at this point this isn't happening this year.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Do you mean simply opening the mountain for skiing?


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## Cat in January (Aug 4, 2017)

Seems they have only said it once and it does not seem they have closed the purchase yet.  

In my mind Saddleback opening this winter has moved to the unlikely category.


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## mbedle (Aug 4, 2017)

I've got to agree that it will open. They would not fork over the money for a lift install this year if they only intended to open next year.


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## cdskier (Aug 4, 2017)

Cat in January said:


> Seems they have only said it once and it does not seem they have closed the purchase yet.
> 
> In my mind Saddleback opening this winter has moved to the unlikely category.



Closings always take time. That doesn't mean nothing is happening. Didn't the original announcement say the closing would happen later this summer? We're still well within that expected time-frame and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you don't "hear" much in the way of updates until that officially happens.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 4, 2017)

It would be nice if they had better communication.


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## slatham (Aug 4, 2017)

Although each situation is different, the lengthy delay on closing the deal at Magic last year - November 21 or so - and yet still opening gives confidence that there is enough time for SB to get open. I would think it very important to the new owners to open this season.


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Closings always take time. That doesn't mean nothing is happening. Didn't the original announcement say the closing would happen later this summer? We're still well within that expected time-frame and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you don't "hear" much in the way of updates until that officially happens.





VTKilarney said:


> It would be nice if they had better communication.



That is definitely true, but I agree with cdskier. The owners have an operating agreement in place. That means they theoretically can be doing stuff right now. I have not heard anything either way about whether or not stuff is happening on the hill though.

Did they officially place the order with Dopp? Or did they have an agreement in place that an order would be made eventually and the survey work that was done did not cost them anything?


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## Cat in January (Aug 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Closings always take time. That doesn't mean nothing is happening. Didn't the original announcement say the closing would happen later this summer? We're still well within that expected time-frame and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you don't "hear" much in the way of updates until that officially happens.



yes, you are correct but not sure beyond contacting contractors how much will actually get done prior to closing.  

We know they need at least 1 new lift to run.  Beyond stakes in the ground and a foraging mission by dopplemyer we do not know the status of new lift installation (rumor on FB is not this year).  The groomer fleet needs to be leased (not a big deal).  We do not know the status of the 2 working chairlifts and what needs to be done to get them certified.  We do not know the status of the snowmaking system.  We know no season pass sales are available.  Apparently the GM is being retained, but we do not know where they stand putting people in place to run the mountain.  The group at the news purchase agreement has 0 ski management experience as far as I can tell.

These unknowns coupled with their desire to get it right is why I think it is doubtful they open this year.


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## fiddleski (Aug 4, 2017)

Nothing visible happening on the mountain. Chairs are still swaying in the breeze on the Rangeley double.


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## machski (Aug 4, 2017)

No way they can start a quad chair install now and be ready before Christmas.  If they open, o would guess it would be a Feb 1

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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2017)

machski said:


> No way they can start a quad chair install now and be ready before Christmas.  If they open, o would guess it would be a Feb 1
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



It is getting late to do an install.


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## Cat in January (Aug 5, 2017)

Put out a post on FB which includes management team which is encouraging, but no other specifics.  Most of the respondents took it as saying they will open this Winter.  I feel more optimistic seeing they have a team.  Still not sure if they make this Winter season.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2017)

Cat in January said:


> Put out a post on FB which includes management team which is encouraging, but no other specifics.  Most of the respondents took it as saying they will open this Winter.  I feel more optimistic seeing they have a team.  Still not sure if they make this Winter season.



Without replacing the double--sure they can open. If replacing that lift--?????


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## bigbob (Aug 5, 2017)

I agree it is getting late for a quad install, but as Dopp finishes up other projects the can direct those resources to building this chair. What troubles me to open this season is the rest of the mnt infrastructure. They have no staff currently to get the place up and running. You need lift mechanics, electricians, laborers, equipment operators, etc. Where will those people come from in a sparkly populated region?


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## machski (Aug 5, 2017)

bigbob said:


> I agree it is getting late for a quad install, but as Dopp finishes up other projects the can direct those resources to building this chair. What troubles me to open this season is the rest of the mnt infrastructure. They have no staff currently to get the place up and running. You need lift mechanics, electricians, laborers, equipment operators, etc. Where will those people come from in a sparkly populated region?


I don't buy it.  Sunday River said they could have installed a new Spruce last year but the removal and install would have started in a similar time frame.  They elected not to as the install would have stretched towards February, which would have limited traffic down Lazy River and 3 Mile during construction (would have cut mountain in 2 basically).  Not sure how an install on Rangley line would affect skier traffic at SB, but starting now would go well into ski season.

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## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2017)

Unless the engineering, Tramway board concrete approval, and lift fabricatiin have all occured there will not be a replacement in time for this season.


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## benski (Aug 5, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> Unless the engineering, Tramway board concrete approval, and lift fabricatiin have all occured there will not be a replacement in time for this season.



Does Maine have even have a tramway board? If they do that is scary, considering all the problems at Sugarloaf.


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## bigbob (Aug 6, 2017)

Sunday River was delayed by the slow receipt of a check from the insurance company and the sale of the REIT, wasn't it?


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## machski (Aug 6, 2017)

bigbob said:


> Sunday River was delayed by the slow receipt of a check from the insurance company and the sale of the REIT, wasn't it?


Partly, but they also considered that given when the thing fell over and when install could have begun, it would have interrupted half the season.  Obviously there were multiple hang ups but the install timeline would have been until Feb 1st or so.  As it is now, Spruce probably will be up in time for December, but if we get early cold, they will likely have to open around it this year.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 6, 2017)

The Valley House replacement a year or two ago would be a more likely comparison, wouldn't it?


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## cdskier (Aug 6, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> The Valley House replacement a year or two ago would be a more likely comparison, wouldn't it?



If you're using that for a comparison...they started pouring concrete in July and the lift was ready by around Thanksgiving (although weather wasn't ready by that time to allow them to use it yet from what I recall).


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## Cat in January (Aug 6, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Without replacing the double--sure they can open. If replacing that lift--?????
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Since the Spruce lift toppled over the State of Maine required all areas to submit their engineering plans for lift footings to the state.  If they did not have engineering plans, then they had to dig them up to prove they were properly anchored.  Doubt such plans exist for the double and 2 years of idle must be harder on such an old lift.  I would be very surprised if the double runs.


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## Newpylong (Aug 7, 2017)

Same for NH and VT and not just engineering plans but final as-builts as oftentimes conditions in the ground altered the footing designs in the field. More specifically they need to know what type of grout was used to pin to ledge. There is a "good" and "bad" list. If you're using the bad or can't confirm (quite often with a 40-50 year old lift) you need to do a pull test or repin the footing or worst cause repour. The worst thing about it is the Boards lack any type of standard for pinning and instead put the responsibility on an engineer to sign off on the lift.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 7, 2017)

So...if they started pouring and had MOST of it poured by Labor Day, then theoretically, it could be ready by Christmas/New Years, depending on how hard Dopp wanted to work. Seems like if the footings were in, you could fly towers over the course of a few days. Base terminal is easy access to work, so get the return done first I'd think. Whatever... if it was me and I could only do one or the other for this winter, I'd shoot to get the T-bar done first. You'd think it would be a quicker install, but I may be wrong on that, and you'd still get summit access to the Rangley with the traverse. Downside would be having to make and maintain snow early on the uphill track.


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## oldtimer (Aug 7, 2017)

I LOVE Saddleback and I am glad they finally have a new owner.  I do not see a path to lifts swinging this season.  It was crickets up there last week.




MEtoVTSkier said:


> So...if they started pouring and had MOST of it poured by Labor Day, then theoretically, it could be ready by Christmas/New Years, depending on how hard Dopp wanted to work. Seems like if the footings were in, you could fly towers over the course of a few days. Base terminal is easy access to work, so get the return done first I'd think. Whatever... if it was me and I could only do one or the other for this winter, I'd shoot to get the T-bar done first. You'd think it would be a quicker install, but I may be wrong on that, and you'd still get summit access to the Rangley with the traverse. Downside would be having to make and maintain snow early on the uphill track.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 7, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> I LOVE Saddleback and I am glad they finally have a new owner.  I do not see a path to lifts swinging this season.  It was crickets up there last week.



You'd think they'd at least want to get a jump on the mowing, and snowmaking pipe inspections.


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## danimals (Sep 17, 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/SaddlebackMaine/posts/10155089700888510:0

Afternoon Saddlebackers! We wanted to check in and let you know the dominoes have fallen into place and we are able to amp up efforts to reopen the mountain. We are pleased to announce physical work is starting at Saddleback.  

The first step will be taking down the existing Rangeley lift. This process will be carried out by Jim Quimby, Jared Emerson and the Mountain Operations team, weather permitting. Following this, the next step will be construction and repair of the T-Bar and also the Rangeley chair lift. 

We know your single biggest question here is going to be, when are you going to open? The only thing that is going to hold up or delay this process is Mother Nature. As work progresses and we are able to establish a firm timeline, you will be the first to know. We thank you for your continued support and patience through this process. 

Best regards, 
The Saddleback Team


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crystalmountainskier (Sep 17, 2017)

Is anyone else confused by that update?  It says "taking down the existing Rangeley lift," but then also "construction and repair of the T-Bar and also the Rangeley chair lift."


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 17, 2017)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Is anyone else confused by that update?  It says "taking down the existing Rangeley lift," but then also "construction and repair of the T-Bar and also the Rangeley chair lift."



Not really. Rangeley double > Quad.

Existing T-bar gets some upgrades.

Great news though!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 17, 2017)

By the pictures that were circulating earlier this summer. The T-bar needed a massive amount of work to the foundations of the base terminal...


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## Jully (Sep 17, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> By the pictures that were circulating earlier this summer. The T-bar needed a massive amount of work to the foundations of the base terminal...



Very odd. I had thought they had an order with Dopp for a new t-bar with drastically increased capacity. Also not a ton of information in that post. Will they be delayed by mother nature because of getting too cold too early and not being able to install the lifts? I'd assume so, but why not say that. Additionally, will they be installing the new rangeley quad this fall?


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## machski (Sep 17, 2017)

Jully said:


> Very odd. I had thought they had an order with Dopp for a new t-bar with drastically increased capacity. Also not a ton of information in that post. Will they be delayed by mother nature because of getting too cold too early and not being able to install the lifts? I'd assume so, but why not say that. Additionally, will they be installing the new rangeley quad this fall?


More like if they move forward on the quad install now, it will be this winter.  They need to move because I doubt they can pour footings after the ground freezes up.  Without a firm stated open target, I doubt they reopen this winter.  Too much to do and if they intend to open with just a refurbished T-bar their terrain will be constricted with the work happening on the new quad.  We've waited this long, guess we can wait one more winter.

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## Jully (Sep 17, 2017)

machski said:


> More like if they move forward on the quad install now, it will be this winter.  They need to move because I doubt they can pour footings after the ground freezes up.  Without a firm stated open target, I doubt they reopen this winter.  Too much to do and if they intend to open with just a refurbished T-bar their terrain will be constricted with the work happening on the new quad.  We've waited this long, guess we can wait one more winter.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app



That is my thought too. T-bar only doesn't make much sense. Sad to wait another winter, but its definitely not the end of the world.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 17, 2017)

I'm not drawing any conclusions yet, especially when Saddleback poster seemed encouraged and said we'd be the first to know.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 20, 2017)

Majella Commits to Opening Saddleback for 2017-2018 Season

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=596


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## machski (Sep 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Majella Commits to Opening Saddleback for 2017-2018 Season
> 
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=596


Based on this, I would bet the skiing will be limited to Golden Smelt and Lookers right of that off just the T-Bar for most if not all of the season with ongoing work on the new Rangley.  The lower mountain beginner terrain will be in too.

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## xwhaler (Sep 20, 2017)

machski said:


> Based on this, I would bet the skiing will be limited to Golden Smelt and Lookers right of that off just the T-Bar for most if not all of the season with ongoing work on the new Rangley.  The lower mountain beginner terrain will be in too.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



If the T bar opens they can access the Kennebago as well...if they choose to staff the upper mtn and do some snowmaking up there


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## machski (Sep 20, 2017)

xwhaler said:


> If the T bar opens they can access the Kennebago as well...if they choose to staff the upper mtn and do some snowmaking up there


True Xwhaler, but if the Rangley Quad is under construction, they likely will not be able to allow skiing across the line.  Thus no Kennebago.

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## bdfreetuna (Sep 20, 2017)

I skied there on a day when the Rangeley Double was closed but the Kennebago Quad was open via the T-bar.

It wasn't the worst situation as a one-off, but T-bar lines were long. The T-bar is a good backup but I don't see how they try to have a grand opening under those circumstances.

Would be a shame to get "almost there" with the new quad and stopped by weather. I think I'll root for a cold snowy winter regardless.


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## Jully (Sep 20, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I skied there on a day when the Rangeley Double was closed but the Kennebago Quad was open via the T-bar.
> 
> It wasn't the worst situation as a one-off, but T-bar lines were long. The T-bar is a good backup but I don't see how they try to have a grand opening under those circumstances.
> 
> Would be a shame to get "almost there" with the new quad and stopped by weather. I think I'll root for a cold snowy winter regardless.



Any construction would halt access to anything looker's left of the Rangeley including Kennebago. I hope if they only get partway there with the quad install they can somehow shut down construction and let people ski past it. 

To your earlier point, I don't think it would be a 'grand opening' but more of a soft opening. I think there is a lot of value in even opening a little bit. It gets buzz going, locals involved, and shows that you mean business. It should make the following season with full operations go better as well. These people haven't ever run a ski resort before, so there will certainly be kinks and quirks that they need to learn and work out!


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## Smellytele (Sep 20, 2017)

Jully said:


> Any construction would halt access to anything looker's left of the Rangeley including Kennebago. I hope if they only get partway there with the quad install they can somehow shut down construction and let people ski past it.



This is not really true. The only time you wouldn't be able to get between the 2 is when they were removing and installing the cable and when they were actually helicoptering in the towers. They can build tower bases at anytime as well as install the upper and lower terminal.


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## chuckstah (Sep 20, 2017)

Jully said:


> Any construction would halt access to anything looker's left of the Rangeley including Kennebago. I hope if they only get partway there with the quad install they can somehow shut down construction and let people ski past it.
> 
> To your earlier point, I don't think it would be a 'grand opening' but more of a soft opening. I think there is a lot of value in even opening a little bit. It gets buzz going, locals involved, and shows that you mean business. It should make the following season with full operations go better as well. These people haven't ever run a ski resort before, so there will certainly be kinks and quirks that they need to learn and work out!


I read somewhere that the initial soft opening may be weekend/holidays only. If this is the case I assume construction could be stopped or limited while open, allowing upper mountain access. 

Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Cat in January (Sep 21, 2017)

I think they will be happy to get the Rangely Chair down this Fall.  Highly unlikely new construction starts before next summer.

Looks like Saddleback is going to give it a go with the t-bar.  Good for them for being aggressive.  I am sure I will be up to Saddleback on many days this winter whatever its fate holds.


----------



## Cat in January (Sep 21, 2017)

I would give good odds on that bet.  Too much to do, too short or a time, too expensive in Winter.  Will be done next summer.

Let's see them get the Rangeley Chair down and the t-bar in tip top shape.  Lot of work right there.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Sep 21, 2017)

Seems pretty clear reading the numerous FB posts by Saddleback that they have all intentions of opening in some capacity this season with weather being a factor.They also posted that the Rangley recplacement is also scheduled to get operational this season if possible.Thats seems like a tough goal unless we have an awfull start to the season.
per FB post:
"The Rangeley Double Chair will be replaced with a new TRISTAR Fixed Grip Quad Chair Lift that can support 1,500 skiers per hour - we hope to have this operational this season. The T-Bar will be repaired and that will allow for access to the other lifts in the interim".


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 21, 2017)

Maybe they plan on throwing a massive amount of resources at the project with the hope of getting the Rangley installed by January. Time will tell.


----------



## Cat in January (Sep 21, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Maybe they plan on throwing a massive amount of resources at the project with the hope of getting the Rangley installed by January. Time will tell.



I think it is really something to get the t-bar going and operational.

Last year SR with all of its experience and with the income from a full scale operation put off Spruce Peak.  No chair at SB this year.  

Let's see a picture on FB of them actually doing work on dismantling the Rangeley or improving the t-bar.  Let's see a picture of a bush hogged trail. Let's hear that the deal is closed.  Let's hear a ticket structure and targeted opening date.  Keep expectations low for this winter and you will not be disappointed.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 21, 2017)

Cat in January said:


> I think it is really something to get the t-bar going and operational.
> 
> Last year SR with all of its experience and with the income from a full scale operation put off Spruce Peak.  No chair at SB this year.
> 
> Let's see a picture on FB of them actually doing work on dismantling the Rangeley or improving the t-bar.  Let's see a picture of a bush hogged trail. Let's hear that the deal is closed.  Let's hear a ticket structure and targeted opening date.  Keep expectations low for this winter and you will not be disappointed.



Yep, you're right, lots of valid points. "Believe nothing you hear and all you see.."


----------



## ironhippy (Sep 22, 2017)

I know Mount St Anne installed a chairlift in October/November of 2013 and had it operational by December.. however they had lots of updates leading up to it.

Here's a video from Nov. 1 where they are installing the towers, however the top and bottom terminals seem to already be finished at that point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS8PJR4Du0A


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2017)

The biggest issue are the forms. As long as the excavation and forms are set prior to cold weather the installation can happen in winter albeit with increased winter construction costs. Concrete that is poured in freezing weather has its strength reduced by a large percentage. Then you need to use a higher PSI ready-mix, thermal blankets,  and admixtures to try to make up the loss, etc.


----------



## SkiFanE (Sep 25, 2017)

Cat in January said:


> I think it is really something to get the t-bar going and operational.
> 
> Last year SR with all of its experience and with the income from a full scale operation put off Spruce Peak.  No chair at SB this year.
> 
> Let's see a picture on FB of them actually doing work on dismantling the Rangeley or improving the t-bar.  Let's see a picture of a bush hogged trail. Let's hear that the deal is closed.  Let's hear a ticket structure and targeted opening date.  Keep expectations low for this winter and you will not be disappointed.



I wouldn't use SR Spruce as a benchmark. The lift fell suddenly in July.  A little shocking. I think by time you figure out insurance and what to do for future, the window of opportunity was lost. And I think SR took a step back to figure out what to do, long term. Is simple replacement the best way to go?  Plus, ya know...needed to do a little geological/engineering analysis to be sure it doesn't happen again, that took time.


----------



## Cat in January (Sep 25, 2017)

I think it is an ok comp.  Time frame is somewhat similar.  From the internet, Majella has not closed on the deal yet and I can not imagine too much occurring until after that.   They will need to submit their engineering plan for approval too (no idea if that has happened).

Boyne is a much more polished operation than Majella with their first ski resort.  Much more capable of making sure the job was done right in a limited time frame.  

Saddleback's current owners said work had to begin by August back when they looked to the State to influence a loan.


----------



## machski (Sep 26, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> I wouldn't use SR Spruce as a benchmark. The lift fell suddenly in July.  A little shocking. I think by time you figure out insurance and what to do for future, the window of opportunity was lost. And I think SR took a step back to figure out what to do, long term. Is simple replacement the best way to go?  Plus, ya know...needed to do a little geological/engineering analysis to be sure it doesn't happen again, that took time.


Good points.  I know SR considered a fall into winter install for last year but it would have closed 3 Mile and Lazy River quite a bit during the construction.  That would have been a huge headache during peak times.  Yes, you can try to plan around those times but if construction hits a snag or 2, well ugly results.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Sep 26, 2017)

Another point to the T-Bar refurb vs replace with new (and as I haven't made it up to SB yet, someone else will have to fill this in) is if any trails cross the line when not in use, installing a new one would necessitate closing those trails permanently.  Refurbing the current lift keeps the grandfathered codes in place.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mbedle (Sep 26, 2017)

machski said:


> Another point to the T-Bar refurb vs replace with new (and as I haven't made it up to SB yet, someone else will have to fill this in) is if any trails cross the line when not in use, installing a new one would necessitate closing those trails permanently.  Refurbing the current lift keeps the grandfathered codes in place.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



No crossover trails.


----------



## machski (Sep 26, 2017)

mbedle said:


> No crossover trails.


Well, so much for that thought then.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## fiddleski (Oct 22, 2017)

Bad feeling about this...

http://newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=610


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 22, 2017)

Nothing going to happen there this season. At least some mowing got done for those that skin.


----------



## Edd (Oct 22, 2017)

fiddleski said:


> Bad feeling about this...
> 
> http://newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=610



Agreed. That article puts the buyer in a negative light. I hope there’s better news ahead.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2017)

Boy, this has a Quiros style operation written all over it.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Oct 22, 2017)

Why couldn't they have been Russians instead..


----------



## Whitey (Oct 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Boy, this has a Quiros style operation written all over it.



Not sure I am ready to say that yet but I always thought the idea that they would be able to close this deal and get the mountain open this winter was more than a little bit optimistic/unrealistic.       

Getting Saddleback open by next season is still a lot better (if it happens) than the other option we were looking at - Saddleback as a permanent addition to NELSAP.


----------



## machski (Oct 22, 2017)

I just saw a recent post on FB by SB.  Admitted they have been a bit silent but they have powered up the Snowmaking system and lift maintenance on the lifts staying has been happening.  They are still hoping for a soft open this season.  We will see.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 23, 2017)

machski said:


> I just saw a recent post on FB by SB.  Admitted they have been a bit silent but they have powered up the Snowmaking system and lift maintenance on the lifts -has been happening.  They are still hoping for a soft open this season.  We will see.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yep, and unless somebody got off their ass and actually did something, it's just more lip-service. There's a  reply to a previous post, where someone swung by Saddleback, there was ONE vehicle by the lodge, and neither the double nor the T-bar had any visible work done at all. Post was around October 3rd I think. Believe nothing you hear and all you see...

And if there is any truth at all to the CEO attracting FBI attention?... Heck, they can't even keep up with property taxes on their Portland property, so how are they gonna hand the Berry's a nice big check? Their track record on previous developments isn't very encouraging.


----------



## tipsdown (Oct 23, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yep, and unless somebody got off their ass and actually did something, it's just more lip-service. There's a  reply to a previous post, where someone swung by Saddleback, there was ONE vehicle by the lodge, and neither the double nor the T-bar had any visible work done at all. Post was around October 3rd I think. Believe nothing you hear and all you see...
> 
> And if there is any truth at all to the CEO attracting FBI attention?... Heck, they can't even keep up with property taxes on their Portland property, so how are they gonna hand the Berry's a nice big check? Their track record on previous developments isn't very encouraging.



They've clearly communicated to property owners that they're soft opening this season, as they continue to ramp of for next year....There is a lot of visible work being completed on the mountain. All the chairlifts (other than the defunct Rangeley Double) were just removed last week for grip inspection etc. Snow guns are lined up, trails mowed.  They hired the best chef in the area to head up Food and Bev and he's already on site. They've been tightlipped as they've been lining their ducks up but I expect them to start communicating more...shortly.  

There will be plenty of naysayers until the deal officially closes and chairlifts are going up.  It is what it is...and probably warranted for that matter.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Oct 23, 2017)

tipsdown said:


> They've clearly communicated to property owners that they're soft opening this season, as they continue to ramp of for next year....There is a lot of visible work being completed on the mountain. All the chairlifts (other than the defunct Rangeley Double) were just removed last week for grip inspection etc. Snow guns are lined up, trails mowed.  They hired the best chef in the area to head up Food and Bev and he's already on site. They've been tightlipped as they've been lining their ducks up but I expect them to start communicating more...shortly.
> 
> There will be plenty of naysayers until the deal officially closes and chairlifts are going up.  It is what it is...and probably warranted for that matter.



Positive attitude + actual facts = winning post


----------



## fiddleski (Oct 23, 2017)

tipsdown said:


> They've clearly communicated to property owners that they're soft opening this season, as they continue to ramp of for next year....There is a lot of visible work being completed on the mountain. All the chairlifts (other than the defunct Rangeley Double) were just removed last week for grip inspection etc. Snow guns are lined up, trails mowed.  They hired the best chef in the area to head up Food and Bev and he's already on site. They've been tightlipped as they've been lining their ducks up but I expect them to start communicating more...shortly.
> 
> There will be plenty of naysayers until the deal officially closes and chairlifts are going up.  It is what it is...and probably warranted for that matter.



All very good news. However, I if the NESI article is correct (it's on the internet - it must be!), then concern shifts from short to long term.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2017)

I also read that NESI article and some of the source material.  Does not sound good at all.  Sounds like they have a lot of issues and unpaid taxes and debts.  So sorry Saddleback folks.  Looks like you may be in for a turbulent ride.  Hope that things change.


----------



## tipsdown (Oct 23, 2017)

Yeah, we'll see...Most of the claims in the article have gone unsubstantiated however,  i.e. they have completed other projects, there are no outstanding liens. There was a re-zoning of the said church and took a couple years to resolve, a lien resulted during that time apparently. I would take that article with a grain of salt though.  NESI appears a bit ill-informed, especially when you consider the visible work and behind the scenes work that's ongoing.  Every article they've written since the announcement is had a negative bend to it...

But I'm not going to pretend to know Majella well. At the end of the day they'll have to prove themselves, just like everyone else....


----------



## Jully (Oct 23, 2017)

tipsdown said:


> Yeah, we'll see...Most of the claims in the article have gone unsubstantiated however,  i.e. they have completed other projects, there are no outstanding liens. There was a re-zoning of the said church and took a couple years to resolve, a lien resulted during that time apparently. I would take that article with a grain of salt though.  NESI appears a bit ill-informed, especially when you consider the visible work and behind the scenes work that's ongoing.  Every article they've written since the announcement is had a negative bend to it...
> 
> But I'm not going to pretend to know Majella well. At the end of the day they'll have to prove themselves, just like everyone else....



I gotta agree with you here. NESI has some great stuff, but there has been a solid negative bend to everything published about SB since the acquisition. I think everything that has or hasn't happened so far with regard to the mountain needs to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. Will the Rangeley be replaced this year? No. Will SB open in some small capacity? I'd give it 50/50 right now. To suggest that Majella and SB will end in SEC seizure I think is way off base.

NESI has shown a lot more bias to date than usual (anything written about Cannon notwithstanding). A certain hatred for everything EB5/international investors is clearly bleeding through here, I think.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 23, 2017)

Jully said:


> NESI has shown a lot more bias to date than usual (anything written about Cannon notwithstanding). A certain hatred for everything EB5/international investors is clearly bleeding through here, I think.



Is NESI run by one person? A group of people? There's virtually no information on the site at all about who NESI is that I can see. Articles don't have any named authors listed either. Even their domain name registration is hidden.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Is NESI run by one person? A group of people? There's virtually no information on the site at all about who NESI is that I can see. Articles don't have any named authors listed either. Even their domain name registration is hidden.



http://www.nelsap.org/jeremy1.html

https://twitter.com/nelsap?lang=en

Not sure how current this info is.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> http://www.nelsap.org/jeremy1.html
> 
> Not sure how current this info is.



I was referring to NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com, unless you're saying the guy that runs NELSAP also runs that one.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I was referring to NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com, unless you're saying the guy that runs NELSAP also runs that one.



NELSAP and NESI are two completely different things and two completely different guys.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I was referring to NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com, unless you're saying the guy that runs NELSAP also runs that one.



Sorry - total missread your post. Don't have anything on NESI


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Is NESI run by one person? A group of people? There's virtually no information on the site at all about who NESI is that I can see. Articles don't have any named authors listed either. Even their domain name registration is hidden.



It is one guy.  It is the same guy who runs http://newenglandskihistory.com/


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## Jully (Oct 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> It is one guy.  It is the same guy who runs http://newenglandskihistory.com/



Threecy on this board. Though he's been absent for a while. Has very strong opinions on a few topics.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 23, 2017)

Jully said:


> Threecy on this board. Though he's been absent for a while. Has very strong opinions on a few topics.



In that case, especially as it is only 1 guy, it definitely sounds like articles on NESI about Saddleback need to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 23, 2017)

In my opinion, a lot of the articles on that NESI site take a lot more liberties than I would have in publishing, especially if I was not quoting people. Whole lot of conjecture.


----------



## tipsdown (Oct 23, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> In my opinion, a lot of the articles on that NESI site take a lot more liberties than I would have in publishing, especially if I was not quoting people. Whole lot of conjecture.



+1.  Not a single quote or a reliable source in any article...


----------



## fiddleski (Oct 24, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> In my opinion, a lot of the articles on that NESI site take a lot more liberties than I would have in publishing, especially if I was not quoting people. Whole lot of conjecture.



Good to know that there may be some bias at work here. Hoping for the best for the locals who have hitched their wagons to the Majella train.


----------



## Cat in January (Oct 24, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Is NESI run by one person? A group of people? There's virtually no information on the site at all about who NESI is that I can see. Articles don't have any named authors listed either. Even their domain name registration is hidden.



Jeremy Clark Franklinsites.com


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 9, 2017)

Here is the latest:
Good-morning,

We value your feedback and hear you are seeking more regular updates. 

We are continuing to work to successfully finalize this sale. We have encountered delays that have impacted our timelines. This has been on our end and not the Berry’s. We are incredibly thankful to the Berry family and their advisors for their ongoing patience, kindness and support. I am whole heartedly committed to this deal. Whilst it has been drawn-out and frustrating for many, we have entered and are working through the final stages. 

As we stated in June, this is a complex and challenging deal. It has posed numerous challenges to our investors. We are focused not just on finalizing the deal but ensuring we have the long-term, sustainable plan in place for the future of Saddleback and the existing approved development district. 

I do not take lightly the impact Saddleback has on the entire Rangeley region, and we need to get this economic driver right for the mountain and all stakeholders.

Is the Rangeley chair still being replaced? 

Whilst we had hoped to replace the Rangeley chair this year, we have made the decision to delay its replacement until next season. We realize this comes as a disappointment to many and for us this season, but we are committed to a sustainable and long-term solution for Saddleback.

We wanted the additional time to scope the best lift option for the mountain and will consider a detachable quad versus a fixed grip quad. This is pertinent as we move forward to the four-season use of the mountain where a detachable quad has greater appeal. 

What does this mean for re-opening this season? 

As I have said before, we are committed to opening in some capacity for the 2017/18 ski season. This will not be a full opening, rather a limited operation that, if possible, will allow our Saddlebackers and their families to return and enjoy the mountain in some capacity this season. 

I am extremely thankful to our incredible Mountain Operations team who have been hard at work with the trails groomed, readied and looking perfect for the ski season. I also want to thank all the business owners who continue to support our effort with advice and services and their early support will not be forgotten.

Our Saddlebackers are our biggest motivation and we hear you when you say you would prefer some skiing over none. We are doing everything in our ability to provide an offering, albeit a limited one this season.

Best regards, 

Majella Group CEO, Sebastian Monsour


----------



## Jully (Nov 9, 2017)

Hmm... so a detachable is now on the table again? A little odd. Additionally they don't mention any details of what they envision that limited capacity being. Just the T-bar? Rangeley and T-bar? Given they probably don't know themselves, but it would be nice to have a little more detail when other places are opening for the season rather than "we are committed to opening in some capacity..."


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Nov 9, 2017)

Sounds positive, I hope it all works out for everybody. I would love to get back to skiing there.


----------



## joshua segal (Nov 9, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Here is the latest:
> Good-morning,
> 
> We value your feedback and hear you are seeking more regular updates. ...


Given the multiple delays and that each PR release offering less and less options for this season, this posting doesn't pass "the smell test".


----------



## Cat in January (Nov 9, 2017)

Agree, they are even worse than the Berry's in squandering good will.

Rangeley lift will never carry skiers again.

No word on certifying any of the lifts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Here is the latest:
> Good-morning,
> 
> We value your feedback and hear you are seeking more regular updates.
> ...



Wow.  They have not even closed yet?  Sounds very suspect.  Sounds like a money problem.  Wasn't it reported that they had some tax issues in Portland?  Not very encouraging.  I think that another season of skinning is likely for skiing.  They are very lucky if they have any sort of season this year.  Earliest would probably be February considering that they have not even closed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2017)

Just a guess, but it sounds to me like they may be having a hard time putting financing in place.


----------



## fiddleski (Nov 22, 2017)

Worse and worse...

http://http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/saddleback-australian-ceo-remains-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729130


----------



## K2Trav (Nov 22, 2017)

2 Pm today

https://www.facebook.com/travis.chandler.9/videos/10156861115267306/


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2017)

Have condo values there taken a hit yet?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2017)

K2Trav said:


> 2 Pm today
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/travis.chandler.9/videos/10156861115267306/



Very sad.


----------



## Jully (Nov 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Have condo values there taken a hit yet?



Absolutely no way they haven't.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Nov 22, 2017)

K2Trav said:


> 2 Pm today
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/travis.chandler.9/videos/10156861115267306/



Were you expecting to find something different?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 24, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Have condo values there taken a hit yet?



Didn't realize they had actually rebounded...


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2017)

http://www.wlbz2.com/news/saddlebac...-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729193


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## delco714 (Dec 5, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.wlbz2.com/news/saddlebac...-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729193


This says volumes

"The premier ski resort in North America.”

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 5, 2017)

delco714 said:


> This says volumes
> 
> "The premier ski resort in North America.”
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Does have some of the most premier skiing Ive experienced anywhere though.

Sent from my LG-D850 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Dec 6, 2017)

delco714 said:


> This says volumes
> 
> "The premier ski resort in North America.”
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I agree. That statement alone is concerning. The least charitable interpretation implies ignorance of what kind of ski area Saddleback is, where it is, and what the competition is. If you’re having funding issues trying to buy a place like Saddleback, the phrase “premier ski resort in North America” has no place in a press release.


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## SkiFanE (Dec 6, 2017)

K2Trav said:


> 2 Pm today
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/travis.chandler.9/videos/10156861115267306/



Being complete outsider who just reads what is in public space (and I Love SB) - I think the next step is up to the Barry's. The basis, and only basis, for RE value is what someone will pay.  And over the last 2-3 years it's apparent that what the Barry's want no one will pay.  If a bank won't loan you money because they can't see how they will be paid back - then they're asking too much. So, IMO, the Barry's need to reduce their price if they really want SB to survive. Maybe they have?  Who knows. But it's like that house on the market that has been for sale for 3 years while those around it sell like hot cakes. It's not the property, it's the price. Drop it low enough for someone willing to pay - the only choice.


----------



## Whitey (Dec 6, 2017)

delco714 said:


> This says volumes
> 
> "The premier ski resort in North America.”



You guys are reading too much into this.    It's marketing speak.    You're not going to say "we hope to be a really good local hill"  when you are trying to pump up your product and launch a new venture.    It's spin, nothing more, nothing less.     No one's going to care if a year from now it's back to operating but it's not yet a "premier ski resort".


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## machski (Dec 6, 2017)

Whitey said:


> You guys are reading too much into this.    It's marketing speak.    You're not going to say "we hope to be a really good local hill"  when you are trying to pump up your product and launch a new venture.    It's spin, nothing more, nothing less.     No one's going to care if a year from now it's back to operating but it's not yet a "premier ski resort".


Agree, but the plans the Berry's had floated could have had Saddleback approaching premier Eastern resort level if they actually could have gotten there.  Obviously, they didn't get the draw early enough on to go there.  But the proximity to the lake and offerings of Rangley give them a unique position in the east to be a year round resort.  Not sure what has come out that Majella is the solution or key to unlock that.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Being complete outsider who just reads what is in public space (and I Love SB) - I think the next step is up to the Barry's. The basis, and only basis, for RE value is what someone will pay.  And over the last 2-3 years it's apparent that what the Barry's want no one will pay.  If a bank won't loan you money because they can't see how they will be paid back - then they're asking too much. So, IMO, the Barry's need to reduce their price if they really want SB to survive. Maybe they have?  Who knows. But it's like that house on the market that has been for sale for 3 years while those around it sell like hot cakes. It's not the property, it's the price. Drop it low enough for someone willing to pay - the only choice.



I agree with you.  While the buyer doesn't have their ducks in a row, the Barry's are the ones who started this cascade of events by playing chicken with the State and banks two years ago to get money for the chairlift.  I understand that it is expensive to run an area, and no owner wants to lose money, but they owe it to the community to try to keep the place running and do no harm to their customers and employees.  Every day that place sits empty just increases the chances that it will never reopen.


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## fiddleski (Feb 25, 2018)

http://http://majellagroup.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

Since the announcement in last summer, the official "saddlebackmaine.com" website had a message from Majella. That URL now leads to an "Account Suspended" page. 

This is the case for the entire Majella Group site, which used to be pretty fancy. Majella appears to have completely disappeared from the web.

Sigh...


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2018)

fiddleski said:


> http://http://majellagroup.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi
> 
> Since the announcement in last summer, the official "saddlebackmaine.com" website had a message from Majella. That URL now leads to an "Account Suspended" page.
> 
> ...



Typically what happens on the web when you don't pay your hosting bills.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Feb 25, 2018)

SMF had a couple of million to put down too .. Berry's held out for all or nothing. The Majella Group never impressed me and even less as time went by .. Maybe the Berry's will be finally willing to deal with SMF and work something out that keeps ownership in State.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Feb 25, 2018)

I would have no issue with the State purchasing the property and then Leasing it back to SMF ..


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## fiddleski (Feb 27, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Typically what happens on the web when you don't pay your hosting bills.



Website is back up. Maybe just a payment glitch.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

Looks like an awesome season at Saddleback. (Sigh)


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 6, 2018)

For the skinners!


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## ironhippy (Mar 7, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> For the skinners!



That's what I was thinking, if I lived closer I would spend a day there after every storm.


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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2018)

ironhippy said:


> That's what I was thinking, if I lived closer I would spend a day there after every storm.



That is part of the problem - No one lives close


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## Tin Woodsman (Mar 14, 2018)

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.  This sale is never happening folks - Majella are the scam artists people thought they were:

http://www.newscentermaine.com/arti...-sleep-if-saddleback-doesnt-open/97-528149662


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## prsboogie (Mar 14, 2018)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Surprised this hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.  This sale is never happening folks - Majella are the scam artists people thought they were:
> 
> http://www.newscentermaine.com/arti...-sleep-if-saddleback-doesnt-open/97-528149662


It's up on another thread

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## bdfreetuna (Mar 14, 2018)

Wow such a cavalier attitude on their behalf. Don't care if it ever opens and just want the land for EB-5.

Disappointing. I hope the Berry's are holding out for a buyer that actually plans on operating the mountain and investing in it.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 14, 2018)

Wow such a cavalier attitude on their behalf. Don't care if it ever opens and just want the land for EB-5.

Disappointing. I hope the Berry's are holding out for a buyer that actually plans on operating the mountain and investing in it.


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## machski (Mar 22, 2018)

Complete scumbag status now.  Not only trying to access EB-5 here, but apparently fleecing the Australian version already.  Sad.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=668

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## fiddleski (Mar 22, 2018)

Also being sued by Perry Williams, one of the Rangeley locals who was formerly involved with the project.

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/03...-against-prospective-saddleback-resort-buyer/


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 22, 2018)

Rangeley has a hard enough time without predatory foreigners dragging things out to no productive end.

I'd like these Magella folks to take a nice long snowmobile ride with Rangeley locals ... get a proper introduction to the area  :smash::uzi::flag:


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## x10003q (Mar 22, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Rangeley has a hard enough time without predatory foreigners dragging things out to no productive end.
> 
> I'd like these Magella folks to take a nice long snowmobile ride with Rangeley locals ... get a proper introduction to the area  :smash::uzi::flag:



The Berrys deserve a lot of credit for the Saddleback Shyt Show.


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## Whitey (Mar 23, 2018)

The Saddleback saga is turning from sad to tragic.   After raising hopes with Majella deal, those are crashing down.    I give credit to the people on this board who questioned the validity of the Majella thing from the start.    I was cautiously optimistic.    

With all due respect to the Saddleback co-op people, I think we are back to the most likely scenario being the Kennebago & So Branch quads get sold off and Saddleback goes NELSAP.    Such a good mountain,  what a shame.    

I had some great trips to Saddleback, wish I felt confident that there may be more (non-skinning) trips there for me in the future.   Those chances are about as good as me making the Patriot's 2019 roster. . .


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2018)

bummed that I never got to ski there. my apt in Brooklyn has random saddleback stickers on one of the bedroom doors. a prior occupant's.


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2018)

Damn place has it all. High elevation, decent snowfall and great retention, tons of acreage, a good amount of terrain for all skill levels, classic New England trails, low crowds, awesome vibe, great base lodge. Fuckin’ A..


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## AdironRider (Mar 23, 2018)

Edd said:


> Damn place has it all. High elevation, decent snowfall and great retention, tons of acreage, a good amount of terrain for all skill levels, classic New England trails, low crowds, awesome vibe, great base lodge. Fuckin’ A..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



You realize the low crowds part did them in right? 

They have everything but a sustainable population base to keep the mountain alive. Sad.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2018)

yep, at the end of the day, its just too far. sugarloaf is closer to every relevant population center.

actually I take that back, looking at google maps they are about equal drives from boston and portland


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yep, at the end of the day, its just too far. sugarloaf is closer to every relevant population center.
> 
> actually I take that back, looking at google maps they are about equal drives from boston and portland



Sugarloaf has more on mtn beds and places to eat and drink at is its big plus.


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## Killingtime (Mar 23, 2018)

Just checking out Saddleback's trail map now. Looks like a fun place with a lot of steeps. I'm sure most of the people capable of purchasing and running the place have at least taken a glance since this has been well publicized. I get it that the Berry family probably have a ton of dough invested but this has been sitting stagnant for three years now. At some price, someone will pick this place up and move forward with it. Probably a lot less than the Berry's are asking.


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> You realize the low crowds part did them in right?



Yeah, I kind of figured.


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## Whitey (Mar 23, 2018)

Killingtime said:


> Just checking out Saddleback's trail map now. Looks like a fun place with a lot of steeps. I'm sure most of the people capable of purchasing and running the place have at least taken a glance since this has been well publicized. I get it that the Berry family probably have a ton of dough invested but this has been sitting stagnant for three years now. At some price, someone will pick this place up and move forward with it. Probably a lot less than the Berry's are asking.



ONLY if you have a business plan that you have a realistic chance at executing and then finding probability from that.    If the Berry's sold it for a dollar but you can't make any profit or even break-even on it,  it doesn't matter how low the purchase price.     Any plan would have to replace the Rangeley double; it's 50+ yrs old, a horrible lift, and just so happens to be their primary lift.  That would mean you are sinking significant more $ into the mountain right from the start.   The prospects for increasing skier visits would require a massive ($$) marketing campaign and may not be possible even with that.   Increase in visits requires beginner and intermediate visits to go up, experts already knew about and went to SB.     And you've got SR, SL, Shawnee, Abraham all competing for skiers.   SR and SL have good infastructure and accomodations - SB competing with that would require a lot more $$$$$ to build accomodations and infastructure.      

This is why many, including me, are so pessimistic.   It's hard to see even at "free" for the sale price how the mountain could be returned to full and sustainable operations.    The Berry's have lost a lot of money, so far and on-going, on SB so far.  

Unfortunately, as they say in Maine;  "You can't get there from here".     I wish someone could, I just don't see it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2018)

I don't even think vail and alterra would want to touch the infrastructure issues cited above


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## AdironRider (Mar 23, 2018)

The Berry's just need to realize that it's not worth more than the land it sits on. 

Which is a substantial amount of acres if memory serves, so its not worth nothing. 

Along those lines it is surprising it hasn't sold as a timber investment at least. Kinda surprising the same thing hasn't happened at Maple Valley also.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2018)

The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it.  There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.  

If I were a southern Maine resident looking for a vacation property, I'd easily pick Saddleback over Loaf.  

If someone could just keep it going on a shoestring budget kind of like Magic and then over the years more second home buyers gradually creep in, perhaps it could have a chance.  I'm sure that's what the Berry's were thinking when they dumped $40M into the place.  I wonder had they replaced the Rangeley before the Kennebago T if this story would have played out differently

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## Jully (Mar 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it.  There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.
> 
> If I were a southern Maine resident looking for a vacation property, I'd easily pick Saddleback over Loaf.
> 
> ...



The issue is Rangeley is just so dead in the winter AND the resort is 7 miles away from town anyway. It has to draw skiers first, IMO, and it is really hard when you have a lively Bethel or SL base area in the winter. Lively being relatively speaking of course, but definitely more happening than Rangeley between November and May. I stayed on mountain a few times and you really feel like you're in the middle of no where. I love it, but I think most Southern ME residents or Boston Metro residents aren't looking for that much wilderness. The average skiing family or couple wants some resorty activities to do in addition to pure skiing. It would take a herculean effort (and bank account) to build up SB to have it feel anything but the most remote ski area in NE (except maybe Big Rock). It is possible though, looking at Jay Peak as an example haha.

If SL's infrastructure could be duplicated at Saddleback, I would definitely own there before Sugarloaf too though.

I'm not so sure if things would have played out different if the Rangeley was replaced first unfortunately. The fact that the Berry family dropped $40 million into the place and it still has the infrastructure hurdles it has (lodge that is too small (supposedly), rangeley lift, no base development) is telling. I imagine a good amount of the $40 million had to have been into snowmaking, right? I don't hear about a lack of snowmaking infrastructure like you typically hear at places like SB (e.g. Magic).


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The thing about Saddleback though is it has incredible lakes all right next to it.  There's not a place in the East with that big of a mountain with such a fantastic summertime assett next to it.



Owl’s head comes pretty close.


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## AdironRider (Mar 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> The issue is Rangeley is just so dead in the winter AND the resort is 7 miles away from town anyway. It has to draw skiers first, IMO, and it is really hard when you have a lively Bethel or SL base area in the winter. Lively being relatively speaking of course, but definitely more happening than Rangeley between November and May. I stayed on mountain a few times and you really feel like you're in the middle of no where. I love it, but I think most Southern ME residents or Boston Metro residents aren't looking for that much wilderness. The average skiing family or couple wants some resorty activities to do in addition to pure skiing. It would take a herculean effort (and bank account) to build up SB to have it feel anything but the most remote ski area in NE (except maybe Big Rock). It is possible though, looking at Jay Peak as an example haha.
> 
> If SL's infrastructure could be duplicated at Saddleback, I would definitely own there before Sugarloaf too though.
> 
> I'm not so sure if things would have played out different if the Rangeley was replaced first unfortunately. The fact that the Berry family dropped $40 million into the place and it still has the infrastructure hurdles it has (lodge that is too small (supposedly), rangeley lift, no base development) is telling. I imagine a good amount of the $40 million had to have been into snowmaking, right? I don't hear about a lack of snowmaking infrastructure like you typically hear at places like SB (e.g. Magic).




Is that 40 million number legit or like what it cost them to run the mountain during their ownership. I have a hard time seeing 40 million in investment there on the surface at least.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 23, 2018)

I really can't handle the notion of Saddleback going NELSAP. It would be the greatest NELSAP tragedy to date.

Only got to ski there 2 days ever and dammit there isn't a single mountain I'm more eager to return to.

If I won the lottery I would literally buy Saddleback #1 and #2 figure out the rest.

Too bad most people never knew how incredible their terrain is.

Funny thing is, at least for me, Sugarloaf is losing out on my business too because I'd MUCH rather make the trip to also ski Saddleback.


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## machski (Mar 24, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Is that 40 million number legit or like what it cost them to run the mountain during their ownership. I have a hard time seeing 40 million in investment there on the surface at least.


It's probably legit.  Two new Quads were installed, the Rangely double got major upgrades (entirely new base drive terminal IIRC), some trail work, a lot of Snowmaking system work and guns and the expanded and remodeled base lodge at a minimum.  Could easily see that running up towards $40 mil.

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## Razor (Mar 24, 2018)

There has to be someone out there who realizes the potential of the Saddleback/Rangeley area.  Great ski area where my kids learned to ski back in the 80s.  (of course, we went there on school vacations because it was relatively uncrowded.)  Great snowmobiling.  Great fishing.  Great boating.  Could be a mini New England Lake Tahoe.  Hell, maybe Rangeley needs a casino.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 24, 2018)

Screw the typical family apres ski "attractions". 

Do it like Magic did: focus on the skiing. The diehards will come and get the word out.


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## Edd (Mar 24, 2018)

Razor said:


> Could be a mini New England Lake Tahoe.  Hell, maybe Rangeley needs a casino.



I’d support a brothel there at this point. That whole area is a gem. I think it’ll go big someday. Matter of time.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 24, 2018)

Rowsdower said:


> Screw the typical family apres ski "attractions".
> 
> Do it like Magic did: focus on the skiing. The diehards will come and get the word out.



I agree. Slash the budget, forget about massive development, **any lift is fine**. Don't even need snowmaking for the most part.

Blew my mind when they announced they couldn't stay open with the Rangely Double. How the hell does Smuggler's Notch stay open then, and with a lot more people on the average day waiting in line for that slow double lift?

They have that alpine terrain, which I don't know maybe some rare bird or frog lives up there, but talk about an ideal location to have a snowcat ride.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

The issue with that terrain is the Appalachian Trail crosses it.  At one point in time there was discussion of extending ski terrain across the whole ridge out even past the Horn.  I recall a website for when the mountain was for sale prior to the Berry's buying it that had images of what it could look like.  Would have been far and away the largest ski area in the East.  The AMC shut it down.  I think I recall a lawsuit to preserve the land.  



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## Edd (Mar 24, 2018)

Like Tuna mentioned, Saddleback’s plight makes me think of Smuggs. Rugged terrain but with a family clientele, inconvenient to get to. What is Smuggs doing that Saddleback did not? Is it simply a matter of proximity to metro areas or is it more?


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 24, 2018)

if I'm not mistaken the backside is pretty gnarly/steep and with a lot of vertical as well.

I used to be a big hiker and AMC member -- understand their position, but I think they should have made an exception in this case. It's not as if the AT is 100% virgin terrain or anywhere close. I guess no point in ranting over that right now. But heck, a T-bar and a small warming shack would have been totally sufficient... how does that mess up your 6 month hiking adventure?


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## Rowsdower (Mar 24, 2018)

Who even cares if they can't access the top of the ridge? It's like an extra, what 300-400 ft of vert? It's like Stowe not having access to the top of Mt Mansfield. It doesn't make the terrain any less gnarly and it provides a little something extra for the real die hards to earn their turns.

FWIW even without the AMC you'd be extremely hard pressed to establish above treeline lift-serviced terrain on the East Coast. Alpine environments here are rare, and very ecologically fragile. I wouldn't even want a lift and trails up there honestly. You're talking a handful of acres of alpine terrain left scattered across isolated peaks. Ripping it up for a few more lift served turns isn't worth it.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 24, 2018)

My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.

I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.

Think of Tuckerman Ravine... do we worry about the alpine ecosystem while people are trampling over the Alpine Gardens covered in snow? There are some rare alpine flowers growing in the summer in the Tuck headwall zone. They don't seem to be affected by the skiers.

I think the Auto Road is fairly obnoxious, and likewise the Cog Railway which spews black smoke and makes noise you can hear over the whole Presidential range.

What if we put our ecological concerns in perspective and applied it evenly?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

Edd said:


> Like Tuna mentioned, Saddleback’s plight makes me think of Smuggs. Rugged terrain but with a family clientele, inconvenient to get to. What is Smuggs doing that Saddleback did not? Is it simply a matter of proximity to metro areas or is it more?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


It's absolutely location.  Both major metro areas ( especially Montreal) and local metros.  If Saddleback were 40 minutes from Augusta and Lewiston/Auburn like Smuggs is to Burlington, they'd have no problem making it work.  There's about 250k people within an hour or Smuggs.  There might be 25K people within an hour of Saddleback and those people have much less money to spend on recreation than local Smuggs clientele does.

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## Jully (Mar 24, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.
> 
> I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.
> 
> ...



It is all about what was there first. No way an auto road or a cog railway would get onto My Washington if built today. In fact people use Washington as an example of what could happen to places if we let development happen. While I certainly want a bit more development at ski areas and think many current restrictions are ludicrous, I don't think anyone who is anti development on NE's mountains is fine with Washington, they all likely are disgusted by it.

Smuggs also succeeds because of the other resorts around it. Sugarloaf is an hour from SB, not horrible, but everywhere else is a ways away. Plus the local population and proximity to Montreal as others have said. It is quite a different situation IMO. Not sure if a MRG model would ever work too. I always thought they should look more to BMOM as an example.


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## Jully (Mar 24, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.
> 
> I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.
> 
> ...



It is all about what was there first. No way an auto road or a cog railway would get onto My Washington if built today. In fact people use Washington as an example of what could happen to places if we let development happen. While I certainly want a bit more development at ski areas and think many current restrictions are ludicrous, I don't think anyone who is anti development on NE's mountains is fine with Washington, they all likely are disgusted by it.

Smuggs also succeeds because of the other resorts around it. Sugarloaf is an hour from SB, not horrible, but everywhere else is a ways away. Plus the local population and proximity to Montreal as others have said. It is quite a different situation IMO. Not sure if a MRG model would ever work too. I always thought they should look more to BMOM as an example.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

Yes, Mt Washington is a shit show and some people want to make it worse.  Just look at the whole above treeline hotel fiasco going on there now.

IMO both the auto road and cog should be shut down. 

Thankfully money grubbing private interests never got their hands on Katahdin. 

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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 25, 2018)

The Cog has been operating to the summit since 1869. I don't think it's going to disappear anytime soon.


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## x10003q (Mar 25, 2018)

The $40 million number does seem kind of rich. The Berry's also claim to have sent $13 million "updating" the lodge. Who does such nonsense at a place that never cracked 100K (probably 80k) visits? If they did actually spend $13 million on the lodge and did not see fit to spend some of it to replace the main lift, then the Berry's are fools. 

The Berrys have access to the actual numbers and continue to overvalue SB. 

The fact is the place is difficult to get to and that is never going to change.


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## Rowsdower (Mar 25, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> My point is mainly as a potential marketing aspect to serious or adventurous skiers. Also 300-400 feet of some of the most badass and interesting snowfield and semi-snowfield terrain. How much has Sugarloaf used their snowfields for marketing purposes? Quite successfully, and it's badass terrain as well. What Saddleback has is unique even without that though.
> 
> I think when areas are covered with snow the ecological impacts are mitigated at least to a certain extent. A few shrubs and rare flowers have to stay 20 feet to the left.
> 
> ...



I mean installing the lift and grading new trails. That would be pretty invasive. 

Part of the allure is that you're hiking to it. You're too gnarly for the lifts. You earn your turns, unlike all those shoobies on the groomers. When you get up top its just you and the diehards. The real ski bums. After ripping your line you head down to the bar and talk up anyone who will listen "Yeah, did you see that guy dropping in off the ridge? Yeah that was me. Yeah I'm basically the best skier on the mountain". 

Those are the days people remember and come back for.


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## delco714 (Mar 25, 2018)

Jully said:


> The issue is Rangeley is just so dead in the winter AND the resort is 7 miles away from town anyway. It has to draw skiers first, IMO, and it is really hard when you have a lively Bethel or SL base area in the winter. Lively being relatively speaking of course, but definitely more happening than Rangeley between November and May. I stayed on mountain a few times and you really feel like you're in the middle of no where. I love it, but I think most Southern ME residents or Boston Metro residents aren't looking for that much wilderness. The average skiing family or couple wants some resorty activities to do in addition to pure skiing. It would take a herculean effort (and bank account) to build up SB to have it feel anything but the most remote ski area in NE (except maybe Big Rock). It is possible though, looking at Jay Peak as an example haha.
> 
> If SL's infrastructure could be duplicated at Saddleback, I would definitely own there before Sugarloaf too though.
> 
> I'm not so sure if things would have played out different if the Rangeley was replaced first unfortunately. The fact that the Berry family dropped $40 million into the place and it still has the infrastructure hurdles it has (lodge that is too small (supposedly), rangeley lift, no base development) is telling. I imagine a good amount of the $40 million had to have been into snowmaking, right? I don't hear about a lack of snowmaking infrastructure like you typically hear at places like SB (e.g. Magic).


You make excellent points and said it way more politically correct than I would've

I used to be a loafer, haven't been for last two seasons from broken ankle last year and divorce year prior.
Went to SB twice before that and absolutely love it. But I traveled from my cabin in Eustis.

Sugaloaf as a mountain sucks. Too pointy and faces the wrong direction.

Sb is amazing as a mountain goes, slight lake effect for incr snow total.

Again..it's too remote. It can never be a big hopping place..thus no money to invest and no reason to invest money bc no money will be made. Maybe if they open al natural with a handful of tows they could turn a minor profit. 


If buyer X puts 15-45 mil in...how are they getting the return on investment? How' many passes/Gatorade/hamburger/lesson/rental

Would it take? That is while paying employees and general operating costs/insurance.

Maybe I'm just in a mood..I would love to board SB again..especially during a weekday..it's so very excellent


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 25, 2018)

Rowsdower I'm fine with Saddleback leaving the summit hike only ... I was more thinking of the marketing angle. Since we're just fantasizing how to save Saddleback at this point.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2018)

In regards to Jullys comment about SB being 7 miles from Rangeley, that's really not far.  It's almost 8 miles from Stowe Village to the ski area.  Perhaps the access road to Saddleback eventually starts filling in a bit with private businesses like what happened at Stowe over the decades.

I guess overall I just can't write the place off as Sugarloaf thrives despite an equally difficult location.  SB has better year round potential and depending on what you are looking for, better skiing.  

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## prsboogie (Mar 25, 2018)

I just feel horrible for my friend and her husband who have been condo owners for nearly 20 years slope side on a non-existent ski resort. What do they do? 

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## bdfreetuna (Mar 25, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> I just feel horrible for my friend and her husband who have been condo owners for nearly 20 years slope side on a non-existent ski resort. What do they do?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## fiddleski (Mar 26, 2018)

Great terrain on the other side of the ridge, but can't string lifts to the top - didn't Snowbird have the same issue? They solved it - maybe Saddleback could do the same!:smile:


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## SkiFanE (Mar 26, 2018)

delco714 said:


> You make excellent points and said it way more politically correct than I would've
> 
> I used to be a loafer, haven't been for last two seasons from broken ankle last year and divorce year prior.
> Went to SB twice before that and absolutely love it. But I traveled from my cabin in Eustis.
> ...



SB has awesome terrain!  I rarely go to SL even though it's included in my pass - just not worth the drive for a runout. Sorry, but SL'ers don't miss one more masshole anyway lol. But Saddleback...just loved it.  I'm not sure how to successfully run a business - but if they blew all their $ on a lodge, they are just bad business folks. My recollection is a nice small lodge with decent food, but crowded and still the "ski bags all over" feeling we all love. Sad if THAT is what causes the downfall. 

I do think it it has potential if they can get summer traffic. The lake looks gorgeous and in general lots of outdoor things to do. With SL and SR in the $100+ day pass range - I do think there is a market for a nice mid size mountain in ME.  I'd take an annual trip there if I could. Can't imagine Casablanca right now.


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## speden (Mar 26, 2018)

Maine should really try to get a decent highway built to improve access to their ski country. Without that they are leaving a lot of money on the table since it takes too long to drive up there.


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## Jully (Mar 26, 2018)

speden said:


> Maine should really try to get a decent highway built to improve access to their ski country. Without that they are leaving a lot of money on the table since it takes too long to drive up there.



Maine can't keep its current roads in good repair. I guarantee you whatever additional revenue it will gain from ski and some summer traffic in western Maine will come nowhere close to the cost of building and maintaining a divided highway. It'll never happen. Even a toll road would have too ginormous of an initial cost. Most of the tourism money is south of Portland and along the coast and the road conditions reflect that.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2018)

I'd be happy with a few more passing lanes.  Many of the roads to the Western Maine mountains have a 55mph limit and plenty of stretches you can drive 60-65 safely.   The problems occur when you get stuck behind Emmit and Gertrude traveling 45-50 as they are in no hurry to get anywhere.  Lots of those types in Maine.  Lots of people up there also like to travel slowly in the passing lanes on highways.  Its so prevalent, I swear they must teach it in drivers Ed.

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## Jully (Mar 26, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> In regards to Jullys comment about SB being 7 miles from Rangeley, that's really not far.  It's almost 8 miles from Stowe Village to the ski area.  Perhaps the access road to Saddleback eventually starts filling in a bit with private businesses like what happened at Stowe over the decades.
> 
> I guess overall I just can't write the place off as Sugarloaf thrives despite an equally difficult location.  SB has better year round potential and depending on what you are looking for, better skiing.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I don't know if thrive is the right word for Sugarloaf anymore. It does okay, but it hardly prints money. The location is pretty much the only reason for that.

You're right about Stowe for sure, and if SB were well established it certainly wouldn't have an issue. However, right now/when it was open SB felt incredibly remote from Rangeley. On top of that, Rangeley itself is currently pretty dead in the winter.

I'll never write it off either, the potential is certainly massive, but the distance (though not a terminal or even the biggest challenge) coupled with how empty Rangeley is in the winter really hurts. I think the pull would be a lot stronger if your slopeside condo could practically double as a lake house. Houses at Shawnee have this, for example.

I imagine the amount of empty remoteness felt at the base of SB is similar to how Jay Peak felt pre EB5. I never went though, so I might be wrong.


----------



## Jully (Mar 26, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be happy with a few more passing lanes.  Many of the roads to the Western Maine mountains have a 55mph limit and plenty of stretches you can drive 60-65 safely.   The problems occur when you get stuck behind Emmit and Gertrude traveling 45-50 as they are in no hurry to get anywhere.  Lots of those types in Maine.  Lots of people up there also like to travel slowly in the passing lanes on highways.  Its so prevalent, I swear they must teach it in drivers Ed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Here here. Roads east of 95 (Rt 3 comes to mind) that are similar to 27 and 26 to SL and SR are 60-65 for stretches.


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## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2018)

Rangeley in the winter does have a good snowmobiler population. Most places you go it smells like snowmobiler.


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## machski (Mar 26, 2018)

fiddleski said:


> Great terrain on the other side of the ridge, but can't string lifts to the top - didn't Snowbird have the same issue? They solved it - maybe Saddleback could do the same![emoji2]


With the AT going over that ridge, you will never get the AMC to allow lifts up to and certainly not over the ridge.  Killington has yet to build the interconnect, but to even get to the planning stages (and the initial trail cut off Pico), they had to agree, pay and move the AT/Long Trail from its original route (up andover Pico Peak) to the west of Pico peak and crossing Route 4 west of Pico.  All this so the AT would not traverse the ski trails and lifts in the interconnect.  And we see how far that project has progressed in 2 decades, but the AT is relocated.

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## mister moose (Mar 26, 2018)

^ So it's ok to cross over a 4 lane Mass Pike, but somehow crossing a meadow like ski trail ruins the experience?


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## folledeski (Mar 26, 2018)

Was up that way this weekend.  Roads in and out of Rangeley are in horrible shape.

For folks driving up from Massachusetts, the 2+ hours on those local, slow, sometimes crappy roads is about an hour too far.  The skiing isn't that much better than closer options for most to justify the trip.

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## fiddleski (Mar 26, 2018)

machski said:


> With the AT going over that ridge, you will never get the AMC to allow lifts up to and certainly not over the ridge.  Killington has yet to build the interconnect, but to even get to the planning stages (and the initial trail cut off Pico), they had to agree, pay and move the AT/Long Trail from its original route (up andover Pico Peak) to the west of Pico peak and crossing Route 4 west of Pico.  All this so the AT would not traverse the ski trails and lifts in the interconnect.  And we see how far that project has progressed in 2 decades, but the AT is relocated.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app



I definitely would not want lifts at the top of Saddleback, or the AT relocated - that's one of the most spectacular ridge walks in the east. I was referring facetiously to the conveyor tunnel at Snowbird that connect the front side to Mineral Basin.


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## fiddleski (Mar 27, 2018)

folledeski said:


> Was up that way this weekend.  Roads in and out of Rangeley are in horrible shape.
> 
> For folks driving up from Massachusetts, the 2+ hours on those local, slow, sometimes crappy roads is about an hour too far.  The skiing isn't that much better than closer options for most to justify the trip.
> 
> Sent from my moto x4 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sad thing is that all the approaches to Rangeley were resurfaced just a few years ago. Long, frigid winters and logging trucks take a toll.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 27, 2018)

mister moose said:


> meadow like ski trail



Something about the way you worded that gave me a chuckle. Quoted for fantastic imagery.

I would think the top would only theoretically open once the snowpack is deep enough that most of the shrubs and alpine perennials would be under a yard stick of snow.


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## machski (Mar 27, 2018)

mister moose said:


> ^ So it's ok to cross over a 4 lane Mass Pike, but somehow crossing a meadow like ski trail ruins the experience?


I would say that is an apples to oranges comparison.  Totally different crossing highways in the valleys as opposed to crossing development in the higher Alpine wilderness.

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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2018)

fiddleski said:


> I definitely would not want lifts at the top of Saddleback, or the AT relocated - that's one of the most spectacular ridge walks in the east. I was referring facetiously to the conveyor tunnel at Snowbird that connect the front side to Mineral Basin.



Not to get on a tangent, but for all the bitching about the tunnel, it is pretty useful.


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## tipsdown (Mar 27, 2018)

fiddleski said:


> Sad thing is that all the approaches to Rangeley were resurfaced just a few years ago. Long, frigid winters and logging trucks take a toll.



The roads this time of year are tough almost everywhere in rural Maine due to the frost heaves and freeze/thaw cycles...The driving conditions are about the same a SL, as is distance.

As for skiing off the backside...it was explored during the Warren Cook days of Saddleback.  They were going to offer cat skiing off the back....thinning glades below treeline. It would offer the most gnarly terrain in the East IF it ever happens...


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## machski (Mar 27, 2018)

fiddleski said:


> Sad thing is that all the approaches to Rangeley were resurfaced just a few years ago. Long, frigid winters and logging trucks take a toll.


You do realize most of Maine's resurfacing is a 1/4 skim coat with some patch buildup below in spots.  That doesn't take more than two winters to start falling apart again.

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## Jully (Mar 27, 2018)

machski said:


> You do realize most of Maine's resurfacing is a 1/4 skim coat with some patch buildup below in spots.  That doesn't take more than two winters to start falling apart again.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



This. So frustrating.


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## tumbler (Mar 27, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to get on a tangent, but for all the bitching about the tunnel, it is pretty useful.



The Basshole.  We used almost everyday when we were there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2018)

tumbler said:


> The Basshole.  We used almost everyday when we were there.



Good one.  Never heard it called that!


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## bigbob (Mar 27, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Come, come now, You exaggerate. We are getting a 5/8" layer on Rt 26 thru Woodstock (Bryant Pond village area)  per the DOT. That's a tad more than 1/4":razz:



 Rode on 26 yesterday. It needs it all the way down to Paris!!


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## bigbob (Mar 27, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Come, come now, You exaggerate. We are getting a 5/8" layer on Rt 26 thru Woodstock (Bryant Pond village area)  per the DOT. That's a tad more than 1/4":razz:



Rode on 26 yesterday. It needs it all the way down to Paris!!


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2018)

bigbob said:


> Rode on 26 yesterday. It needs it all the way down to Paris!!


<br>
About 3 winters ago a friend and his kids were coming up Rt 26 to visit. In Woodstock he hit a huge pot hole hidden in puddle and flattened both passenger side tires. Had to get towed and needed ride. There were another 4-5 cars there with same problem. Tow guys were happy to help. Friend got new tires next day. And then saw later the mechanic switched out all 4 of his fancy little chrome valve covers for plastic.  there is little incentive to fix it when it's a revenue stream for area lmao


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## machski (Mar 27, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Come, come now, You exaggerate. We are getting a 5/8" layer on Rt 26 thru Woodstock (Bryant Pond village area)  per the DOT. That's a tad more than 1/4":razz:


Not really.  Route 5 gets the 1/4" skim, I've seen it.  Drives great for one winter, then begins to crumble the next.

26 is a much heavier use route (not to mention Maine paid some good $$ to do the upgraded passing zones and bypass in Gray not so long ago) so I am glad they are going a bit further with the resurface.  But up Rangley way, they just get the 1/4" if lucky.  


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## delco714 (Mar 27, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be happy with a few more passing lanes.  Many of the roads to the Western Maine mountains have a 55mph limit and plenty of stretches you can drive 60-65 safely.   The problems occur when you get stuck behind Emmit and Gertrude traveling 45-50 as they are in no hurry to get anywhere.  Lots of those types in Maine.  Lots of people up there also like to travel slowly in the passing lanes on highways.  Its so prevalent, I swear they must teach it in drivers Ed.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Once you get passed kingsfield headed west north west towards CBV on a Friday night.. That's the worst. Traffic slows down to 40mph for zero reason...train of cars that ends at the loaf..then I did 75 to Eustis. Terrible


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2018)

machski said:


> Not really.  Route 5 gets the 1/4" skim, I've seen it.  Drives great for one winter, then begins to crumble the next.
> 
> 26 is a much heavier use route (not to mention Maine paid some good $$ to do the upgraded passing zones and bypass in Gray not so long ago) so I am glad they are going a bit further with the resurface.  But up Rangley way, they just get the 1/4" if lucky.
> 
> ...



best is when they skim coat but leave the stripes there - funniest thing ever (basically two parallel strips of new asphalt).  I love Maine frugality!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2018)

Bump.

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06/04/possible-saddleback-sale-needed-federal-tax-benefit/


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2018)

Looks like 2018/2019 won’t be happening.


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2018)

Rangeley has two things (lake and mountain) going for it that most places don’t have in such close proximity. I’d call it a good bet against other remote communities. 


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2018)

Edd said:


> Rangeley has two things (lake and mountain) going for it that most places don’t have in such close proximity. I’d call it a good bet against other remote communities.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Although the water front in Portland was chosen as was a part of South Portland.


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Although the water front in Portland was chosen as was a part of South Portland.



Apologies, but what?


----------



## sull1102 (Jun 8, 2018)

The Lepage Administration chose the Portland Waterfront, but Smellytele was saying that area is actually technically in South Portland. 

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## Cat in January (Jun 9, 2018)

The article the Trailboss links to about Saddleback is how a firm was interested in purchasing the mountain, but claimed they needed the tax break to make it happen.  Lots of people got their panties in a knot when Portland, Me qualified for the economic zone tax benefits

There is not love lost by Lepage for Portland and sure he would have steered the money elsewhere if he could.  

See a few problems with the Saddleback application from the outside-not familiar with the particulars for qualifying for the economic zone.  First the group applying did not have a purchase agreement for the hill.  Second it is primarily seasonal work.  Third it is not near any housing and requires workers to have their own car and a commute.  

Given the time to close a deal and then the lead time to have a lift installed, not to mention all the other infrastructure work, looks like Saddleback stays closed another year and hard to see them come back.  The time has given Saddleback Mountain Foundation their act together,  but I do not have much hope of them being successful in a second go around.


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## machski (Jun 9, 2018)

Well, if any investment group was going to buy into Saddleback, I'm sure it is with an eye to capture year round draw.  Look at the ski industry now, year round programming is the norm no longer the exception.  With the natural assets Saddleback has, this would need to be a focus.  It is best known as a ski area now, so starting with that would be smart.  But the year round tie in would need attention fairly quickly if any new venture is going to succeed for the long run.

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## mbedle (Jun 9, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Year round is still tough on ski mountains. I can remember at a city hall meeting at the river, that thanks to the wedding business and the rec park and biking, instead of losing 3.5 million per month this summer, we only lost 3 million this past month. There is a lot of infrastructure  (and top exec pay) to cover in the off season. Utilities, taxes, debt service, etc....
> 
> I just can't imagine running a business that takes so much at a time when you can only do so much to cover those costs.



Was that just for Sunday River or all of the company's resorts?


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## machski (Jun 9, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Was that just for Sunday River or all of the company's resorts?


Likely just SR.  Not sure Loaf does much better in summer, but Loon outpaces both for sure by a very large amount.  SR has some big events now that help, River Rock is a big draw and of course Tough Mountain, but Loon in the heart of the Whites has a better location and they offer a better assortment of activities daily.

As to my original post, it was in reference to Saddleback and Rangley area being unique with the lake so close by.  If done right, the area could have a natural non skiing draw that Loaf and SR never will just due to natural location attributes.  Killington never drew big in the summer until they invested in the summer attractions and experience.  Now look, three lifts for mountain biking and realitvely busy.  Whether they turn a profit in the summer yet or not?

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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Year round is still tough on ski mountains. I can remember at a city hall meeting at the river, that thanks to the wedding business and the rec park and biking, instead of losing 3.5 million per month this summer, we only lost 3 million this past month. There is a lot of infrastructure  (and top exec pay) to cover in the off season. Utilities, taxes, debt service, etc....
> 
> I just can't imagine running a business that takes so much at a time when you can only do so much to cover those costs.




Wow, seriously?  

Well, I guess if you have, at most, maybe 10 weddings a month, at $50k each, that is only $500k revenue.  Just very rough math.


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## Smellytele (Jun 9, 2018)

Pats peak is able to hold 3 weddings at a time (upstairs, downstairs and the valley lodge) and they say they make more money over the non skiing months (8 months) than the skiing months (4 months).


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## Newpylong (Jun 10, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Pats peak is able to hold 3 weddings at a time (upstairs, downstairs and the valley lodge) and they say they make more money over the non skiing months (8 months) than the skiing months (4 months).



Pat's Peak is also much closer to population centers. Even if they make more in the off season it doesn't hurt that they print money during the winter as well. That place is a well oiled machine that many smaller areas try to mimic.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Pat's Peak is also much closer to population centers. Even if they make more in the off season it doesn't hurt that they print money during the winter as well. That place is a well oiled machine that many smaller areas try to mimic.



+1


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## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2018)

Bump.  

Up for grabs:  

http://www.skiresortequipment.com/2004-doppelmayr-ctec-sprint


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 19, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.
> 
> Up for grabs:
> 
> http://www.skiresortequipment.com/2004-doppelmayr-ctec-sprint



That’s been listed on there for three years.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> That’s been listed on there for three years.



I figured as such.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 19, 2018)

Too bad it couldn't go to Eaton.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Too bad it couldn't go to Eaton.



Are they still operating?  They were moving forward before the owner had a tragic accident.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 20, 2018)

Just some tows on the lower mountain for tubing and skiing. No movement on repair/replacing the summit lift.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 21, 2018)

*Prospective Saddleback Buyer Arrested, Charged with Fraud*


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## Killingtime (Jun 21, 2018)

Is anyone surprised?


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## Rikka (Jun 21, 2018)

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...-to-buy-saddleback-resort-charged-with-fraud/


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## VTKilarney (Jun 21, 2018)

Apparently the Australian authorities are more effective than the Vermont and United States authorities.


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## AdironRider (Jun 21, 2018)

It is starting to feel like owning a ski area and owning a lamborghini attract similar people. Fraudulent and new money and almost always the first to get repo'd. 

Out here, it is going to be pretty hilarious when that social media influencer group that bought pow mow goes belly up. Their plan is like what most ski developers (already ambitious) would come up with while high.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Out here, it is going to be pretty hilarious when that social media influencer group that bought pow mow goes belly up. Their plan is like what most ski developers (already ambitious) would come up with while high.



+ 1.  I am surprised they have lasted as long as they have.  For those that don't know....this is who they are.....



They have get togethers for rich kids and do a lot of talking and whatever.  

Their vision:  https://www.curbed.com/2014/6/3/10092244/powder-mountain-owners-want-to-expand-resort-change-world

Here is a story of their purchase.  Click on the video to watch what they say they are....and you pretty quickly see that it really is a bunch of rich people getting together, doing things like tagging sharks and listening to people talk...and talk...with some yoga, lots of partying, and maybe giving money to charity.  And Pow Mow is their new HQ.  

https://www.curbed.com/2012/12/4/10299658/utahs-powder-mountain-sells-for-40-million

Another glitzy video of their utopia....



And why am I so skeptical?  Watch this video and you will get why I think this is a bunch of BS...fast-forward to about :50 and listen to a woman brag about how she built a "nest" out of "100% natural materials".  WTF?  :blink:



It is this kind of ridiculous crap that drives me nuts.  

Despite the claim in the video that they are "preserving" the mountain, they are not.  They are making it their own party paradise and the locals are pretty rip shit.  From their loud parties every night of the week in the small, LDS community of Eden, to their recent attempt to suck up a lot of the local water, they are not making friends or influencing people.  

Sorry, I just hate to see the mountain ruined.


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## mbedle (Jun 21, 2018)

Between that video with the nest and some article I just read about them and their "charitable works", OMFG... Read this article if you want to have a good laugh. 

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ski-resort-summit-elite-club-rich-millennials


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## raisingarizona (Jun 21, 2018)

Holy cow man. Those guys sound like such douche nozzles.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Between that video with the nest and some article I just read about them and their "charitable works", OMFG... Read this article if you want to have a good laugh.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ski-resort-summit-elite-club-rich-millennials



That is too damn funny.....



> Summit is quick to say that it raised $500,000 to help the Nature Conservancy to protect marine life, but that was partly an effort to compensate for the damage caused by their Caribbean cruises. Now that their flagship conferences are being held in LA, Rosenthal tells me the company provides “50,000 meals to the unfed” in the city. (When I look into this claim, I discover the donation actually involved 30,000 meals for families displaced by California wildfires – and they were paid for by the LA Chargers football team, not Summit.)



And:



> When I hitch a ride in Chawla’s SUV, he tells me how he came to invest in Powder Mountain. He had just been on a disappointing trip to Verbier, a resort in the Swiss Alps where the food was “not that progressive”. Utah, he says, made for a refreshing change. “I bumped into 30 of my friends. I didn’t have to do anything. The food was amazing,” he says. “There was a moment when they served coconut water.” Coconut water was the very thing he’d been craving in Switzerland. At that moment, he thought to himself, “These guys just get me.” He adds: “I thought, you know what, I’d love to support this project.”



And....



> Bisnow says he behaves the same way with servers in restaurants. “[When] you start to engage with these people you realise the humanity in everyone and how unbelievable they are.” Then he explains how he always sits in the front seat of Uber taxis, talking to dozens of drivers a week, hearing “the most remarkable stories”. He ends up hanging out “with a significant number” of his drivers. I ask how many Uber drivers he’s invited to Summit. He doesn’t say, but instead tells me an anecdote about a chef he invited to Summit after meeting him “at this dilapidated castle in England”.


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## Jully (Jun 21, 2018)

Oh my god...


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 21, 2018)

That Guardian article was an amazing read, if it was a book I couldn't put it down. 

  Articles like that could be a huge threat to their business (not that they'd call it that) model, because when your only currency is self-righteousness, and your revenue comes from well-known elites, you're pretty much doomed when someone effectively proves you to be a total fraud and association with you hence becomes a reputational threat. They'd become toxic & the "money-train" would grind to a halt.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 21, 2018)

> Bisnow says he behaves the same way with servers in restaurants. “*[When] you start to engage with these people you realise the humanity in everyone and how unbelievable they are.*” Then he explains how he always sits in the front seat of Uber taxis, talking to dozens of drivers a week, hearing “the most remarkable stories”. He ends up hanging out “with a significant number” of his drivers.



These people.

That was my favorite part of the entire article. The great pride he took for actually having a conversation with someone who isn't filthy rich.    

I just spent 5 minutes playing around with Redfin & it doesn't look like they're selling any homes. They're offering "new construction" at $1.5M, but it doesnt appear they're actually built according to GOOG maps.  Just a lot of freshly dug up roads & space where lots could/would be. Makes one wonder how long this charade is going to last.


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## prsboogie (Jun 21, 2018)

The Next Hermitage!

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## mbedle (Jun 22, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> These people.
> 
> That was my favorite part of the entire article. The great pride he took for actually having a conversation with someone who isn't filthy rich.
> 
> I just spent 5 minutes playing around with Redfin & it doesn't look like they're selling any homes. They're offering "new construction" at $1.5M, but it doesnt appear they're actually built according to GOOG maps.  Just a lot of freshly dug up roads & space where lots could/would be. Makes one wonder how long this charade is going to last.



There is a lot more going on at the mountain. Check out this website and try not laugh reading the opening page... http://living.powdermountain.com


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## JamaicaMan (Jun 22, 2018)

Tower would spend $25m plus another $75-100m in 3 yrs on Saddleback? The Berrys reportedly spent $40m at SB and can’t get anywhere close to a return on that investment. Reality check?? smh


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## JamaicaMan (Jun 22, 2018)

The Pow Mow “community” is so not Pow Mow it’s truly laughable 


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## crank (Jun 22, 2018)

We love Pow Mow and were considering buying a condo in nearby Eden, UT... until the Summit Group bought it.  Hope they just go away.


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## Smellytele (Jun 22, 2018)

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...ght-to-buy-saddleback-plans-to-make-an-offer/


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

The video leaked the press where he says it is about getting the EB5 money had him saying they had until December to close the deal.  Chris Farmer later said June '18 (did not specify date) was a closing time.  My "guess" is that they extended the closing to try and make it happen.  Title never changed hands and sure Berry's will be in the clear by 7/1 at the latest.

The Saddleback Mountain Foundation despite their good intentions showed little capacity to pull off the purchase.  

Would be cool if the mountain could go into a land trust that allowed limited maintenance on the mountain for uphill use.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> Would be cool if the mountain could go into a land trust that allowed limited maintenance on the mountain for uphill use.



This is a Top 5 (undebatably Top 10) Northeast Resort in terms of quality of terrain & natural snow. We should be pulling for absolutely nothing less than a return to full winter operations.

These limousine utopian frauds piss me off. They should be bitch slapped if ever step foot in America again.

At some point the Berrys will need to make a decision that might not make them uber rich but what's best for Maine.

Disaster all around... Chris Farmer is a good guy is all I can say


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

Pull all you want, economic reality of the cost vs. return does not work out.   I think it is perfectly fine to point this out and we don't need to be blindly in the cheering section.

I would very much like to see Saddleback survive, but no public funding should be put in place to make that happen whether it is local or on the state level.

Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Wildcat, Cannon, Jay, Smugglers Notch, Stowe, Jay Peak, Mad River Glenn, Sugarbush, Killington, Whiteface.  Leaving out Eastern Canada, which 3 are lesser mountains than Saddleback, that no one would disagree with you?  Ok that is a bit of a straw man as I think arguments can be made for all those having better terrain/snow than Saddleback.  Let's take SR as an easy one.  Much better snow making.  Snow is much less wind affected.  Much bigger mountain acreage wise and across the whole mountain you can find nearly as good advance terrain.  Top 15 in NE US perhaps without much debate.

Chris is a good guy.  There were some unfortunate investment decisions at Saddleback that put Saddleback in the place it is in now.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

Resort rankings are somewhat subjective. From your list I rank Saddleback above Whiteface, Sunday River, Smuggs... for different reasons.

I give it a tie with Mad River Glen. I personally prefer it to Sugarbush and Stowe. Cannon and Wildcat I can't speak for very well.

Sugarloaf might be #1 in the East from my point of view -- but I can't see myself ever visiting Sugarloaf without Saddleback as well (assuming open). It's that good. In fact the closure of Saddleback has made it a lot less likely I will go to Sugarloaf any time soon.

If you want to say Top 15, I'm fine with that. No top 15 resort should be shuttered without the ski community doing whatever they can to prevent.

My position is weak. All I can do is express that Saddleback is, in my experience, on the level of something like Smuggs + MRG. Imagine how upset we'd be if either of those areas had to close.

I'm fine with states funding, subsidizing or even running ski resorts. I'm confused why socialist Vermont doesn't do this when it's their only cash cow and all their coin calves depend on it. These are national recreational treasures.


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

I just don't feel it is good to mix public funds with private business.  

It is a shame Saddleback is shuttered and as a lifelong Maine skier I feel it distinctly.  Economic reality is economic reality.  Much of the push for the Saddleback Foundation has come from the people who invested in the property near the mountain.  I feel for their economic loss in real estate values.  I feel for the economic loss to the local economy.  

Does that change how I think state/public money should be spent? No.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

Do you object to New Hampshire / New York model?

Does it make sense for Maine to pay to pave the roads all the way up to Saddleback when there's no reason to drive there?


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> I just don't feel it is good to mix public funds with private business.
> 
> It is a shame Saddleback is shuttered and as a lifelong Maine skier I feel it distinctly.  Economic reality is economic reality.  Much of the push for the Saddleback Foundation has come from the people who invested in the property near the mountain.  I feel for their economic loss in real estate values.  I feel for the economic loss to the local economy.
> 
> Does that change how I think state/public money should be spent? No.



Or we could live in an imaginary socialist world and just print some of those Bernie bucks! Free skiing for everyone!


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

Good terrain and good snow preservation? sounds like a killer spot for a uphill access areas to me. Heck, in some way it makes it more attractive than if it had ski lifts imho. More pow for the willing and less hacks hacking it all up.

You could still go to Sugarloaf to ride the lifts and eat hamburgers all day long!


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

I guess that is the dream for all the "secret stash" hardasses. Just let all the ski areas close, in 20 years the whole country will be your secret stash and have some nice glades growing in as well.

Pardon the rest of us for not choosing to drive 6 hours to ski 2 runs because we had to hike the damn mountain.

Look at King Ridge. Closed but they built some homes up top (the mountain was a ski-down from the top setup). I bet those folks get a couple good runs in each year, totally untracked pow. Ideal situation for all resorts!


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

Don't get so touched dude. Enjoying a nice skin track for untracked snow has little to do with be a "secret stash" hard ass. It's just a different experience that a lot of people enjoy. It might not be yours and that's ok but I think it would be a cool addition for locals and people making their way to Sugarloaf. And with the upper mountain being only 900 vert or so a regular touring skier in relatively decent shape can get in a whole lot more than 2 laps in one day. Sugarloaf will still serve all the burgers you can eat.


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

I don't think the state pays the road.  Pretty sure that is maintained by the local town (plantation).  One reason why the non-profit seemed problematic up there.  Road is in bad shape and is real long.  If you remove the tax generated by the mountain puts a lot more burden on the residents of Dallas Plantation.

At least if it stayed open as a tour only place it would still be a ski area.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> I don't think the state pays the road.  Pretty sure that is maintained by the local town (plantation).  One reason why the non-profit seemed problematic up there.  Road is in bad shape and is real long.  If you remove the tax generated by the mountain puts a lot more burden on the residents of Dallas Plantation.
> 
> At least if it stayed open as a tour only place it would still be a ski area.



And with very little overhead. Get volunteers to clear the best runs and stack fire wood for a byob warming hut and boom! Done.

Or keep the t bar for limited access and maybe one groomer. Either way I love the super simple bare bones ski area model. That unique experience could be exactly what would get some people there.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

Bare bones ski area model is the right model for Saddelback. Low overhead but remaining an Alpine Skiing area with limited lodging. But our ideas of "bare bones" are pretty different from what I can tell. Smuggs is "bare bones" but properly operated in my view.

This is why the excuse it could not stay open without upgrading the Double chair never resonated with me. How often did this chair even have a significant line? And when it did have a line, probably less than the average Smuggs lift line.

I'm sure you can "tour only" Saddleback any time you want as long as it's closed. How many people do this? Few. How many will in the future. Few?

Good for you if you're happy to do this but sadly 99%+ of us will never return to Saddleback or Rangeley again unless lifts spin. Just reality.

Don't get your repeated burger reference.. are you a vegan? I lost 30lbs since I started eating beef again.. true story

If they want to go Mount Bohemia route I'll be there but I'm not hiking in the winter nor will the vast majority of potential customers. Not enough time for hamburgers right


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## Jully (Jun 22, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Resort rankings are somewhat subjective. From your list I rank Saddleback above Whiteface, Sunday River, Smuggs... for different reasons.
> 
> I give it a tie with Mad River Glen. I personally prefer it to Sugarbush and Stowe. Cannon and Wildcat I can't speak for very well.
> 
> ...



+1 on all accounts. Absolutely tragic. I would also support Maine subsidizing Saddleback. For me it comes down to what does the state value the economic impact Saddleback had on all of Franklin County and in the immediate Rangeley area. Governments help out impoverished areas all the time with subsidies and tax breaks. I think it just feels a little weird because it is skiing, which is a recreational activity versus fishing, farming, or car manufacturing. It still has just as much meaning to the local area.

I get you have to draw a line somewhere and I definitely get that money, especially for a massive, rural state like Maine is quite limited, but I personally would include Saddleback and recreation as a means to help a struggling area in the good column rather than the wasteful.

YMMV


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## Jully (Jun 22, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Bare bones ski area model is the right model for Saddelback. Low overhead but remaining an Alpine Skiing area with limited lodging.
> 
> *This is why the excuse it could not stay open without upgrading the Double chair never resonated with me. How often did this chair even have a significant line? And when it did have a line, probably less than the average Smuggs lift line.*



I absolutely hated that they chose that as the line in the sand to draw. It confused and angered many and also caused a ton of misinformation about the double to fly around. So many people (and semi-reputable ski news outlets) said the double was broken.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...ght-to-buy-saddleback-plans-to-make-an-offer/



Monsour jailed for fraud?  That's a big surprise!

[Said nobody]

As a Burke homer, I completely empathize with Saddleback folks.  It sucks!


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## gregnye (Jun 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...ght-to-buy-saddleback-plans-to-make-an-offer/



What a surprise!!! (not really)

At one point, I remember reading that this guy claimed "getting the ski area back into operation wasn't the first priority", but rather just abusing the EB5 system and making hotels first. 

Source:
https://bangordailynews.com/2018/03...ern-wants-the-resort-for-its-immigrant-visas/

It's apparently clear (at least from this and Jay Peak) that owners see buying a ski area as just a method to abuse the EB5 program. Which is too bad, because the EB5 program has potential to work, and has worked in other scenarios not relating to ski areas at all.

Now I've never been to saddleback, but I've always wanted to go. Technically I could just hike up--but I'd rather see them succeed. For those who claim "whatever I'll just hike up"--may I remind you that you have Mount Washington which is 100 times better than any manmade mountain for touring.

The only way I could see this mountain opening again is if there was a group of locals (like Mad River and Magic) who got funds together to start it up. Or if the state of Maine ran it like NH runs Cannon (which I'd be ok with--but I'm sure the government-hating people of Maine would object to).


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## gregnye (Jun 22, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Don't get so touched dude. Enjoying a nice skin track for untracked snow has little to do with be a "secret stash" hard ass. It's just a different experience that a lot of people enjoy. It might not be yours and that's ok but I think it would be a cool addition for locals and people making their way to Sugarloaf. And with the upper mountain being only 900 vert or so a regular touring skier in relatively decent shape can get in a whole lot more than 2 laps in one day. Sugarloaf will still serve all the burgers you can eat.




I have an alpine touring setup and I don't understand the appeal of hiking up ski areas (even abandoned ones). The point of touring is for it to be all natural. You're skiing a cut trail and looking at abandoned lifts. I've tried it and it's creepy and not that good.

Mount Washington > hiking up any resort

And those that want non-avalanche hikeable ski terrain go to the Chic Chocs in quebec.

So the argument to make it a hike only resort is dumb. No one in the mind is going to drive past mt. Washington to Maine just to ski this. It's gotta be lift served to get the people there.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I have an alpine touring setup and I don't understand the appeal of hiking up ski areas (even abandoned ones). The point of touring is for it to be all natural. You're skiing a cut trail and looking at abandoned lifts. I've tried it and it's creepy and not that good.
> 
> Mount Washington > hiking up any resort
> 
> So the argument to make it a hike only resort is dumb. No one in the mind is going to drive past mt. Washington to Maine just to ski this. It's gotta be lift served to get the people there.



Really? I've always felt that the attraction was harvesting powder turns and Mount Washington is often WAY too dangerous and complicated for the average east coast, urban weekend warrior type skier, especially in mid winter conditions. 

The uphill market segment is growing. It's huge here in Flagstaff. You guys might be a little out of touch with overall ski business trends.

But yeah, it's totally dumb. Tell that to the people already enjoying such areas. Mountain town people love hearing the overly confident opinions of weekend warrior city folks.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

I love the idea of a T-bar area with some managed hike to skiing that preserves powder skiing for the willing. That would be a special experience that a lot of people would appreciate and would be relatively inexpensive to maintain. 

Is powder skiing dumb? I didn't know that.

And Smuggs is a resort with crappy old chairs. It's still a big resort that costs a lot of money to maintain.


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## gregnye (Jun 22, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Really? I've always felt that the attraction was harvesting powder turns and Mount Washington is often WAY too dangerous and complicated for the average east coast, urban weekend warrior type skier.
> 
> The uphill market segment is growing. It's huge here in Flagstaff. You guys might be a little out of touch with overall ski business trends.



I'm pretty new to the AT scene (I've only been doing it for 2 years) so technically I could be considered part of the people who decided to do it since it became "cool".

Interesting to see how the AT scene is different out west. Around here everyone I know who tours heads up to Mt. Washington. And the parking there is very crowded. Meanwhile the cut trails like Mt Moosilauke carriage road don't have as many people. I guess it's because on the east the only above treeline skiing is Mt. Washington.

I really want to move out west so that I can go above treeline on a mountain that isn't so windy. But until then it's Washington.

Now someone told me that saddleback did have a tiny section above treeline (above the ski area). Is this right? If so maybe it could become a destination. People on the east want to be above the trees.


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## ironhippy (Jun 22, 2018)

gregnye said:


> And those that want non-avalanche hikeable ski terrain go to the Chic Chocs in quebec.



Where? All the hikeable ski terrain I've seen in the Chic Chocs is avalanche terrain...

https://avalanchequebec.ca/conditions-chic-chocs


I'd love to spend a weekend touring at Saddleback, but I'm odd.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

Once you have a ton of time and experience with touring I've personally found that it's snow quality that I'm looking for so often during and after a windy storm event you head for protected areas and trees. 

Ya, it's far but in a way that could be used for marketing the place as that stash where you can get powder turns all day long. Maybe not but I like the idea of it.

Isn't increasing crowding becoming an issue out there like every where else?


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

And again, no one is talking about this being "cool" or being "rad stash guy" or whatever else has been posted in here. Why are so many right coasters concerned with this image aspect of skiing? It's just weird.

I'd rather go where there is hardly anyone there anyways.


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

When Sunday River's lift tower toppled over, the State of Maine required either the engineering plans for the lift installation or to have the base dug up for a visual inspection.  That doomed the Rangely lift.  Being a slow 2 seater, it was the bottleneck on the mountain.  To increase paying customers it had to be replaced.  The way Saddleback went about it was a PR nightmare.

Lots of Winter touring days Mount Washington is not the place to go-besides Avalanche, Wind and icy conditions are factors that dictate that.

Have not been skiing in Murdochville, but I think that has no avy concerns.  If you are in the Parc you need to be avy aware.

Ski mountains have been shuttering in the NE for a long time.  Saddleback is just the largest.   Would have shuttered a long time ago if the Berry's had not invested a large piece of their inherited fortune.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 22, 2018)

mbedle said:


> There is a lot more going on at the mountain. Check out this website and try not laugh reading the opening page... http://living.powdermountain.com



Laughter isn't my first impulse, it's a sense of creepiness.  It basically reads like a far-left religious cult (sans religion) being run by a few con men.   It's not going to end well.  It will last as long as the R.P.T. (Rich Person's Toy) money holds out, but not all R.P.T. is created equally, and this R.P.T. is of the especially vulnerable & capricious kind.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> And again, no one is talking about this being "cool" or being "rad stash guy" or whatever else has been posted in here. Why are so many right coasters concerned with this image aspect of skiing? It's just weird.



Don't be so touched, dude.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 22, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Laughter isn't my first impulse, it's a sense of creepiness.  It basically reads like a far-left religious cult (sans religion) being run by a few con men.



With NXIVM taking a hit in recent news / arrests I guess there is an opening in the cult sector.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 22, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Don't be so touched, dude.



Ha! Nice try but it doesn't quite work the same.

I love burgers btw. Especially after a big day of touring!


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## Jully (Jun 22, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Really? I've always felt that the attraction was harvesting powder turns and Mount Washington is often WAY too dangerous and complicated for the average east coast, urban weekend warrior type skier, especially in mid winter conditions.
> 
> The uphill market segment is growing. It's huge here in Flagstaff. You guys might be a little out of touch with overall ski business trends.
> 
> But yeah, it's totally dumb. Tell that to the people already enjoying such areas. Mountain town people love hearing the overly confident opinions of weekend warrior city folks.



The issue/contradiction with your statement is that yes, Washington is too much for the average weekend warrior (on any coast IME), but you're nuts if you think those are the folks who would be getting into touring. Especially at a place like Saddleback so far removed from everything.

Touring is definitely growing, and fast, but not among the weekenders, at least back east. Among advanced skiers and up, absolutely, but they can handle Washington for the most part.


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## Cat in January (Jun 22, 2018)

That is just not true about being able to handle Mount Washington.  There a lots of times when Mount Washington is not the place to go, please reference my post on the previous page.


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## gregnye (Jun 22, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> That is just not true about being able to handle Mount Washington.  There a lots of times when Mount Washington is not the place to go, please reference my post on the previous page.



I'm from Mass, so I'm definetly a "weekend warrier". But whenever I go to Mt Washington in the winter, a ton of license plates are from Maine as well as far away places like Conneticut. The fact that Maine people are leaving their state to go alpine touring helps solidify the argument that Mt. Washington is far superior than anything in Maine. 

(Mt. Katahdin seems like it would be good though--any people from Maine want to explain why y'all don't go there?)

Edit: I think the Connecticut people could be considered weekend warriors. Since I doubt there's places to tour in Connecticut that are good.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 22, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I'm from Mass, so I'm definetly a "weekend warrier". But whenever I go to Mt Washington in the winter, a ton of license plates are from Maine as well as far away places like Conneticut. The fact that Maine people are leaving their state to go alpine touring helps solidify the argument that Mt. Washington is far superior than anything in Maine.
> 
> (Mt. Katahdin seems like it would be good though--any people from Maine want to explain why y'all don't go there?)
> 
> Edit: I think the Connecticut people could be considered weekend warriors. Since I doubt there's places to tour in Connecticut that are good.



You’ve clearly never been to Baxter State Park.....


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## Pez (Jun 22, 2018)

This powder mountain thing... that's why I don't get all up in arms about Vail or whoever buying another area.  At least they know skiing, not like these jackhole tech bros.  

What a joke.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jun 22, 2018)

Pez said:


> This powder mountain thing... that's why I don't get all up in arms about Vail or whoever buying another area.  At least they know skiing, not like these jackhole tech bros.
> 
> What a joke.
> 
> ...



Yep. 


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## cdskier (Jun 22, 2018)

gregnye said:


> (Mt. Katahdin seems like it would be good though--any people from Maine want to explain why y'all don't go there?)



https://winterwildlands.org/skiing-mount-katahdin-lone-wolf-of-the-east/


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> The issue/contradiction with your statement is that yes, Washington is too much for the average weekend warrior (on any coast IME), but you're nuts if you think those are the folks who would be getting into touring. Especially at a place like Saddleback so far removed from everything.
> 
> Touring is definitely growing, and fast, but not among the weekenders, at least back east. Among advanced skiers and up, absolutely, but they can handle Washington for the most part.



It’s pretty obvious that you don’t have a ton of experience in high alpine terrain, that’s ok, don’t get defensive about that. Yeah, Mount Washington with perfect conditions is awesome for the east but during a lot of winters it can be rare to get those safe and perfect conditions so you’re better off going to a place that’s been groomed/trimmed a little during the summer and offers protection from the wind.


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## Jully (Jun 23, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> *you’re better off going to a place that’s been groomed/trimmed a little during the summer and offers protection from the wind.*



While that is true, Saddleback is not that place either. And I'm not defensive about anything btw. I've posted twice on this haha.

And I was not suggesting midwinter touring of Mt. Washington. I do realize that my previous post came off that way though.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 23, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Ha! Nice try but it doesn't quite work the same.



You're right I should have waited until you posted a few more times. But how was I supposed to know?


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## Cat in January (Jun 23, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I'm from Mass, so I'm definetly a "weekend warrier". But whenever I go to Mt Washington in the winter, a ton of license plates are from Maine as well as far away places like Conneticut. The fact that Maine people are leaving their state to go alpine touring helps solidify the argument that Mt. Washington is far superior than anything in Maine.
> 
> (Mt. Katahdin seems like it would be good though--any people from Maine want to explain why y'all don't go there?)
> 
> Edit: I think the Connecticut people could be considered weekend warriors. Since I doubt there's places to tour in Connecticut that are good.



Yup, Mount Washington is 45 minutes closer for me and I have been there much more than Saddleback.  There are days when Saddleback is a better call even with the drive.    Katahdin is a great place to ski, just takes a little more commitment.  edit, just saw that winterwonderlands link on Katahdin-lot of bad information there.

Greg you seem to be exercising your snide.  My point is that it is highly unlikely lifts ever spin again at Saddleback, if they do, then I will cheer and ski there once and a while.  If my premise is correct, then would be nice if the ski part of the mountain is preserved in some way for folks to earn their turns.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

Isn’t katahdin like a 15 mile approach or something huge like that? 

That’s a hell of a commitment and not exactly appropriate for a weekend getaway of leisurely safe ski touring.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> You're right I should have waited until you posted a few more times. But how was I supposed to know?



Throttle back there Jerry Burgers. It still ain’t working.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> While that is true, Saddleback is not that place either. And I'm not defensive about anything btw. I've posted twice on this haha.
> 
> And I was not suggesting midwinter touring of Mt. Washington. I do realize that my previous post came off that way though.



I think I’m done posting in this forum. Some of you guys are just way too goofy. I feel like I just woke up next to a bad decision after a hard night of drinking when I get into these conversations here.


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## Jully (Jun 23, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> I think I’m done posting in this forum. Some of you guys are just way too goofy. I feel like I just woke up next to a bad decision after a hard night of drinking when I get into these conversations here.



Not sure what's goofy about my post you quoted, but you do you.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> Not sure what's goofy about my post you quoted, but you do you.



If you aren't suggesting Mount Washington for mid winter touring then what? You said it was far superior than other locations but then it's not? I can't follow ya and I'm confused like waking up next to that mistake and now I'm getting all savage like a coyote in a bear trap. And what's wrong with Saddleback for ski touring? Someone said it has good snow retention, sure it's a little farther but wouldn't that help with conditions for the willing that would make that drive? It has cleared runs and glades, isn't that good for powder skiing or are East coasters so used to 3 turns to closeouts filled with twigs to traverses for more 3 turn lines to closeouts that you aren't into that sort of thing? Duck duck goose, here comes another branch! 

I guess I'm breaking into that bottle again, it's June, around 90 degrees every day and the forests are closed here so I might as well do some day drinking and make bad decisions surfing the internets for my boredom therapy. Now hold my beer, I'm about to hook into a Jerry Burger and it's gonna be WICKED!.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 23, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Isn’t katahdin like a 15 mile approach or something huge like that?
> 
> That’s a hell of a commitment and not exactly appropriate for a weekend getaway of leisurely safe ski touring.



Exactly. If not more.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. If not more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Well that sounds super cas, I wonder what a heli ride out of there costs?


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## ironhippy (Jun 23, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> Well that sounds super cas, I wonder what a heli ride out of there costs?



The only way you're getting a heli ride in/out of baxter is if it's a rescue/evac and that aint gonna be cheap.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/276538-TR-Song-of-Katahdin
(some familiar names there  )

Baxter state park prides itself on being inaccessible and wild, especially in the winter. You need to submit a resume in order to even be allowed to enter the park, then there's the whole 15 mile approach before you even get to the base of the mountain, etc. etc.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 23, 2018)

ironhippy said:


> The only way you're getting a heli ride in/out of baxter is if it's a rescue/evac and that aint gonna be cheap.
> 
> https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/276538-TR-Song-of-Katahdin
> (some familiar names there  )
> ...



Yes, my sarcastic question was an effort to point out that a lot of inexperienced folks would likely need an evac if they attempted skiing back in there since it’s so far from being cas (casual). I have 22 years of back country skiing experience and I can tell you, I wouldn’t take an expedition back in there lightly. A wrong move out there could quickly turn fatal, that place looks pretty serious to me.


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## Not Sure (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm a relative newb when it comes to AT but I don't get the above treeline is the best theme ? There is lots of ways to get in trouble... vertigo, avi's, I get the scenery part but seems like unless you time a storm that has a following weak front most of the snow blows off to lower elevation anyway . 

There is plenty of places to enjoy without being above treeline . I've never been to Saddleback but have looked at the trail map with envy. Seems a perfect place to skin! But how fast does the vegetation in Me grow ? I've skied Mittersill years ago with 3' Blackberry bushes and got shredded LOL 

I plan summer hikes to check out areas to ski local and have a few places that don't require much of a base . I keep my AT stuff in my vehicle for short tours ,even a few hundred vert can be fun . Nice to do places that haven't been done by anyone . I bet even Connecticut has some nice places for short tours if you can't get to the bigger mountains. 

Curious if Maine have a version of hike safe card?


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## Smellytele (Jun 24, 2018)

I believe it is 8 mostly flat miles in to roaring brook where they make you stay the first night. From there you go up to Chimney pond which is maybe 4 miles. I have climbed it in the winter via this route 3 times. Skied into roaring brook then hiked from there to chimney pond as the trail was not very wide and harder to ski while towing a a full sled.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jun 25, 2018)

Anyone have any good photos that shows some of the radness of saddleback?


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## Edd (Jun 25, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Anyone have any good photos that shows some of the radness of saddleback?



April, 2013


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## Jully (Jun 25, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> My point is that it is highly unlikely lifts ever spin again at Saddleback, if they do, then I will cheer and ski there once and a while.  If my premise is correct, then would be nice if the ski part of the mountain is preserved in some way for folks to earn their turns.



I unfortunately agree that it is unlikely lifts spin again, but still just a few years out, I don't want to give up hope yet. It would be much better for Franklin County and, IMO, NE skiers as a whole if SB was a lift served area.

I 100% agree with you that if/when those efforts fail and momentum to save the mountain declines, some kind of preservation would be nice. Something along the lines of Ascutney would work too. Obviously ANY kind of preservation is better than none.


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## Jully (Jun 25, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> If you aren't suggesting Mount Washington for mid winter touring then what? You said it was far superior than other locations but then it's not? I can't follow ya and I'm confused like waking up next to that mistake and now I'm getting all savage like a coyote in a bear trap.



Spring time when your new to touring skier is in peak skiing shape and they would likely have more interest in earning their turns than going to a lift served place after skiing resorts all winter. I personally have always found people talk a lot more about trying AT out in the springtime and conditions are generally safer than they would be in January too.

Sorry you're struggling to follow me. I was responding originally in reference to you talking about new AT skiers. Not really sure why that made you so defensive and think you're making bad decisions engaging in a conversation about Saddleback/touring back east. In general, except for the occasional uncalled for insult/snark, I'm finding the discourse informative and nice to discuss.



raisingarizona said:


> And what's wrong with Saddleback for ski touring? Someone said it has good snow retention, sure it's a little farther but wouldn't that help with conditions for the willing that would make that drive? It has cleared runs and glades, isn't that good for powder skiing or are East coasters so used to 3 turns to closeouts filled with twigs to traverses for more 3 turn lines to closeouts that you aren't into that sort of thing? Duck duck goose, here comes another branch!



Nothing is wrong with Saddleback as an area for touring at all. It has great snow retention and like someone else mention (maybe Cat in January) the former Kennebago Quad area is actually a pretty consistent ~1000' vert section that would be perfect for touring.

My issue is that if SB were set up for touring, it would be incredibly under utilized due to all the other options significantly closer to population centers that are nearly as good. SB is a difficult 4+ hours from Boston even further from the rest of MA (long, incredibly crappy Maine roads). Being located outside of NE, it is definitely easy to overlook that.

In contrast, the new backcountry options being cut in the MWV/the rest of NH are much, much easier drives. No more than a handful of people outside of Franklin County ME would ever visit SB for touring, IMO. Anyone new to touring would almost definitely never use Saddleback (I thought you were making this point earlier).

Additionally I got the impression that you were saying leaving it for touring only was somehow better or just as good for skiing than restoring SB as a lift served area. IMO, that is very not true. It would be very under utilized and provide no help to struggling Franklin County.

Maybe I was misunderstanding or struggling to follow you. In which case, sorry for misconstruing your point.



raisingarizona said:


> I guess I'm breaking into that bottle again, it's June, around 90 degrees every day and the forests are closed here so I might as well do some day drinking and make bad decisions surfing the internets for my boredom therapy. Now hold my beer, I'm about to hook into a Jerry Burger and it's gonna be WICKED!.



Summer can suck the forums, but I was never trying to challenge your knowledge of AT experience/safety or anything there. I was simply rebuking that SB would be a good touring only resource to improve the burgeoning AT scene in New England. IMO, it would do virtually nothing for it.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2018)

I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis.  Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.   

Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there.  Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today.  For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain.  They may have to eventually though no?  That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant.  Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.

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## AdironRider (Jun 25, 2018)

It'll just sit and become a timberland investment, like everywhere else that far north in Maine.

They are actually large parts of lots of Ivy endowments, pension funds, etc. The Berry's aren't going to have to donate a thing. When push comes to shove, Saddleback will sell for a minimum of at least that.


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## Razor (Jun 25, 2018)

This whole situation makes me sick.  Saddleback is where we first brought our kids skiing.  We'd go there every February school vacation because it was one place where we could always get a room, and the price was right.  Then my wife and I would be sure to get back there at least once a year when the kids were gone.  Loved the place and the entire Rangeley area.


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## Jully (Jun 25, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis.  Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.
> 
> Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there.  Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today.  For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain.  They may have to eventually though no?  That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant.  Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



The price of it sitting dormant baffles me. The land is continuing to cost them money, the lodge and lifts are losing value. I suppose it is nice that they have not done a fire sale of all the lifts (well, the two quads really), but a little confusing financially.

I don't know much about ski lift value, so maybe lifts don't depreciate in value much over the years.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2018)

Jully said:


> The price of it sitting dormant baffles me. The land is continuing to cost them money, the lodge and lifts are losing value. I suppose it is nice that they have not done a fire sale of all the lifts (well, the two quads really), but a little confusing financially.
> 
> I don't know much about ski lift value, so maybe lifts don't depreciate in value much over the years.



This also stuns me.  I would also think that having it operating would mean the loss of less money.  

Perhaps a local can offer a different POV, but honestly I am pretty disappointed with the Berry Family.  If I were a condo owner or a homeowner in the area, I would be ripshit.  To play chicken with the state and then to burn two years courting a pretty shady buyer (at best) looks pretty selfish in my opinion.  I believe that part of their investment in Saddleback was to help the area.  But I also believe, and understand, that they would want to get their money back and then some.  Letting it sit empty for now almost three seasons killed off a lot of goodwill and business that will be very, very hard to get back.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 25, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis.  Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.
> 
> Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there.  Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today.  For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain.  They may have to eventually though no?  That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant.  Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



BMOM has all that Nordic history and comps that helped it stay afloat some too I'm sure...


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## bigbog (Jun 25, 2018)

Agree about the situation for lift-served...everybody's thinking the same old-school way...if several people who have good ideas would talk to some of the potential businesses, there could be a chance of some communication between the combined half-deep pockets and the ideas that would get things moving and get multiple businesses on the same wavelength...but I think it'll take more than a couple businesses...or one of the deep_pocket entities, which seems like easier way....if those at the top of those major entities would let the locals establish guidelines for the area resort....but we all know how that gets railroaded towards the home office.


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## Cat in January (Jun 26, 2018)

My take on why Saddleback is where it is:

Berry's lose a LOT less money with it closed than open.

They feel an obligation to try to make it go as a ski area.  Whether that is to the community, folks they sold expensive real estate too or their legacy I don't know.

They were patient with SMF, but the organization was slow to raise funds and had a difficult time defining who they were going to be as an entity.

The Australians had obvious weakness in their plan (no ski experience), but they had cash down payment and it was the only offer outside SMF to appear so the Berry's took the money crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.  Outcome is no known.

Breaking up the assets (lodge, land, equipment) would lead to netting nearly the same value as selling the mountain as a whole.  Berry's have been holding out for the whole mountain sale.  Doing what we as skiers would ask them to do if they wanted our opinion. 

What I am suggesting is that if they grow weary of losing money and the assets are broken up, that we try to preserve the upper mountain (lower flater trails will probably be part of the RE with the lodge) for skiing in some sort of a land trust.    Piece of the parking lot and the upper mountain with access.


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## sull1102 (Jun 26, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> My take on why Saddleback is where it is:
> 
> Berry's lose a LOT less money with it closed than open.
> 
> ...


Who buys the lodge and the land though? I'm thinking logging operations might be interested, but the lodge is a strange situation being pretty remote 

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## Cat in January (Jun 26, 2018)

Throwing spit at the wall.  Rumored price of 3 million.  So let's say 2.7

900k for ski industry fire sale, snow making may have more value than lifts at this point

900k for nature preserve for Saddleback.  Foundation had a partner land trust so structures already around.

900k for the lodge and say 20 acres of land.  (Berry family keeps all the land along the road, parking lots, everything else)  Put another 600k into converting the lodge to an upscale B&B



Worse case scenario from my point of view is it is bought by a UTV outfitter who sells off the ski equipment and sells passes for day use for riding the trails.  Lodge in existing form has food sales, bar.  Install a restaurant too to maximize profitability.  UTV sales all of the lower level.  Winter switch over whatever machine you want for snow hill climbs.  Poor condo owners would have little say unless they wanted to throw money at lawyers


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## mbedle (Jun 26, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> Throwing spit at the wall.  Rumored price of 3 million.  So let's say 2.7
> 
> 900k for ski industry fire sale, snow making may have more value than lifts at this point
> 
> ...



Where did you get a rumored price of 3 million and for what was 3 million? My understanding is that it went up for sale at a list price of 12 million including all 7,000 acres. The Saddleback Mountain Foundation had a verbal agreement or understand that they would purchase only 700 acres, including the resort for 6 million (2.2 million at closing and 3.8 financed from the Berrys). They had also been working with the Trust for Public Land to have them also purchase 3,249 acres from the Berrys for permanent conservation. The Berry's would retain the rest of the land for future development.


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## AdironRider (Jun 26, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Who buys the lodge and the land though? I'm thinking logging operations might be interested, but the lodge is a strange situation being pretty remote
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Pretty much every ranch out here that still runs cattle has a dope lodge for weddings/events/land baron use. The condos ruin the view though.


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## AdironRider (Jun 26, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> This also stuns me.  I would also think that having it operating would mean the loss of less money.
> 
> Perhaps a local can offer a different POV, but honestly I am pretty disappointed with the Berry Family.  If I were a condo owner or a homeowner in the area, I would be ripshit.  To play chicken with the state and then to burn two years courting a pretty shady buyer (at best) looks pretty selfish in my opinion.  I believe that part of their investment in Saddleback was to help the area.  But I also believe, and understand, that they would want to get their money back and then some.  Letting it sit empty for now almost three seasons killed off a lot of goodwill and business that will be very, very hard to get back.



Is it really the Berry's responsibility to spend all their money just to support the locals? They aren't getting rich here, if anything they have taken a massive hit themselves. 

No one wishes/wished Saddleback to to fail. It isn't like they just sat on it all those years. If you were the Berry's would you keep throwing millions of dollars at the place as a form of charity? 

I probably would, but I'd also make it my own private fiefdom if I was spending that money. 

Its a snowmobile and fishing town first anyways. You don't hear people bitching on forums about the small engine dealers and such doing their part. Those guys make a killing in Maine, with actual profits.


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## delco714 (Jun 26, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Resort rankings are somewhat subjective. From your list I rank Saddleback above Whiteface, Sunday River, Smuggs... for different reasons.
> 
> I give it a tie with Mad River Glen. I personally prefer it to Sugarbush and Stowe. Cannon and Wildcat I can't speak for very well.
> 
> ...


I don't like sugarloaf..I had a cabin for 3 years up there. Saddleback is superior for reasons touched upon a few times. Somewhat objective somewhat subjective. Sadly I only went out of the way to visit Saddleback twice. Loved it.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2018)

https://vtskiandride.com/saddleback-resort-scandal/


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## raisingarizona (Jul 1, 2018)

a lot of posters in here say how much they liked it but have only been there once or twice in the last X amount (one was like 20) of years. Maybe it just wasn’t meant to be?


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## Whitey (Jul 1, 2018)

Whitey said:


> I’m no finance guy, and even further from a real estate expert.   But I have a really bad feeling about this one.   I’d hate to see SB close because I have skied there several times and even rented a house up there a couple of seasons ago (just for a 1 week trip).  I really love the area.   But there are so many things that don’t seem to work for this.
> 
> The only way it’s viable is if they can increase the # of skier visits.    Some have said the replacing the Rangeley double isn’t necessary.   I couldn’t disagree more.   Yes, you can get around it but that’s only if you want to ski off of the Kennebago quad.    That’s the part of the mtn that interest me too, but I am an expert skier.   The key to increasing skier visits is getting the beginner and intermediate skiers to ski your mountain.   The Kennebago quad and the T-bar don’t do much for that skier group.     Additionally, it’s not just about how long the lift lines are for the Rangeley – it’s also a lot about how long the ride is.   Good god it is that a long, slow, and usually very cold,  ride.  It's even worse after standing in line for 10-15 min.    Also you have to throw in the bad publicity that SL has gotten for the safety of older lifts in Maine, yikes - it's a 51 yr old lift.   I’m no expert, but I think that if your goal is increasing skier visits – the Rangeley double is a deal-breaker.
> 
> ...



I posted the above almost 3 yrs ago in this thread.  Amazing how little has changed.   About the only thing I missed was saying that the only chance was for a person/company willing to lose money on it or "a business looking to abuse/defraud the EB-5 program as a means of financing the loses & generating income."    In my defense, this post was before the Burke/Jay fiasco and that came to light.


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## sull1102 (Jul 1, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> a lot of posters in here say how much they liked it but have only been there once or twice in the last X amount (one was like 20) of years. Maybe it just wasn’t meant to be?


Just too far away and too many options closer. If you didn't have a Sugarloaf or Sunday River never exploded into the mega resort it is today maybe they stand a chance. It's tough though with virtually no shot at getting NYC metro area skiers or even Jay's fallback of Montreal skiers through the door.

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## J.Spin (Jul 2, 2018)

I always enjoy reading the discussions here at AlpineZone, and while I typically don’t have much to contribute to most of the threads, when I saw the touring conversation, I figured I could weigh in with some helpful perspective.  I’ve skied/toured Mt. Washington numerous times, and as a Northern Vermont local I have very extensive experience ski touring in this area.  I know AlpineZone isn’t typically a hotbed of ski touring/backcountrydiscussion, at least that’s the way it feels to me based on the fact that there isn’t a backcountry subforum, and every time I stop in I see that the Backcountry Ski Conditions Resources thread is barely used (the last post is over ayear ago).  Still, it seems like some backcountry thoughts are relevant to the discussion here.

Now there may be some logistical differences for folks in Southern New England or southern parts of the Northeastern U.S., but from the experiences of this NVT local, folks like raisingarizona and Jully are right on track.  This is my opinion of course, but relatively speaking, Mt. Washington is a horrible place for winter ski touring for most people.  By and large, the point of going to Mt. Washington for backcountry skiing is for above tree line terrain. This can be great any time of year, but when it comes to winter skiing, 99% of skiers should be going elsewhere. The approaches to the alpine terrain are relatively long, the weather is typically harsh and often borderline deadly, the skills required to be out there safely are numerous, the actual skiable area is relatively small, and the snow quality is often horrible due to the winds. Can accomplished skiers have some fantastic days up there, absolutely, but most of the above tree line terrain up there in winter is ridiculous in terms of difficulty.  If you want the ultimate challenging winter ski experience, or have the need to be “out there on the edge” in the (somewhat) isolated wilderness, then it might be the right place, but the vast, vast majority of skiers looking to do some backcountry/earned turns skiing inthe Northeast are simply doing themselves a disservice if they are focusing on the above tree line terrain in the Whites or similar harsh alpine environments.

The Whites and other above tree line areas here in the Northeast can offer up some awesome backcountryskiing in the spring, but they’re really not what makes the winter backcountry skiing around here in the Northeast special.  Numerous mountain areas in the western U.S. and other places around the globe have that sort of above tree line skiing in spades, often with lift access, or with better snow conditions because you’re not skiing literally on the roof of the region where the most ridiculous weather is constantly battering everything.  I lived in the Rockies for several years and have a good deal of experience with the lift-served and backcountry offerings there.

Here in the Northeast it’s our below tree line skiing that makes for the day in day out quintessential backcountry experience.  Now I know that people go backcountry skiing for various reasons: quiet and solitude, communing with the natural environment, fitness, challenge, etc.  I love all those aspects, but there’s little doubt that one HUGE factor drives most skier’s interest in the activity:   fresh powder.   I know few people who don’t prioritize powder as part of their typical backcountry ski outings in the winter, and for the best powder skiing you want accessible, appropriately-pitched, sufficiently open (with respect to vegetation), wind-protected terrain.  That’s why the below tree line backcountry terrain, and most pertinent to this Saddleback discussion, potentially available trails at ski areas, are such a valuable asset.

Not all areas in the Northeast have the necessary forest composition, terrain, and natural snowfall to support lots of excellent below tree line backcountry skiing, but I know that much of Vermont (especially the farther north you go when it comes to snowfall) does.  I can’t speak for the region as a whole, but similar to what raisingarizona alluded to, the uphill market here in Vermont, especially CVT/NVT feels like it’s exploding relative to where it was a decade or two ago.  This is well recognized by the Vermont Ski Areas, since a majority of them now have uphill travel policies to accommodate interested skiers. Some are more accommodating than others, but overall it’s definitely a popular activity among those willing to earn turns. For many of us it’s simply part of the daily routine – if fresh snow fell, stop by your local resort before work and get some pristine powder turns. Just as notable though are the appearance of purpose-built backcountry areas like the Brandon Gap Backcountry Recreation Area that the Rochester/Randolph Area Sport Trail Alliance (a.k.a. RASTA) has created at Brandon Gap. It had been on my list of places to visit for at least a couple of years, and I finally made in down this past March (trip report link). Having over 20 years of backcountry/sidecountry skiing experience here in Vermont, I can say that what they’ve put together there is really first rate. If you’re looking to get into backcountry skiing and want to see what this type of terrain is all about, I highly recommend checking out what RASTA has done at Brandon Gap.  I’ve only skied a small subset of their terrain thus far, but if you’re comfortable skiing powder in black diamond trees at the typical resorts around here, you’ll be plenty comfortable on the terrain there.  Obviously it’s best to pick an appropriate day with respect to snow conditions, and choose terrain of appropriate pitch for the available depth of the powder for the best experience, but do that and it will be hard to remain unimpressed.   Another great option I’d recommend would be the Bolton Valley Backcountry Network – it offers extremely easy access since it’s part of the resort, although one does have to buy a Nordic day pass.  Unlike the long approaches, logistics, and major commitments required for ski touring in the alpine areas of the Whites, Katahdin, etc. you literally step out of your car at these spots and can be in the good ski terrain in moments. 

So with that discussion, back to the conversation at hand, which was the potential of Saddleback as an area for earned turns.  I’ll make just a few comments. I’ve never skied Saddleback (but interestingly I have skied both Sugarloaf and Sunday River, conspicuously in line with some trends discussed here) but it sounds like there is some decent terrain and snow, based on things I’ve seen previously in this thread. I’m suspicious of whether it could actually be run as an “earned turns” area in a “for profit” model. I’m not sure if that approach would work well anywhere yet. Folks earning their turns typically aren’t interested in paying much to do that activity when there are so many free options out there. A non-profit or co-op model is probably much more realistic, but Saddleback would have to do something unique because of its location. I’ve wanted to get over to Saddleback for either lift-served or earned turns for a while, but I’ve simply never done it yet. It really hasn’t happened because it’s going to require at least a few hours of travel, and it means leaving so many great options here in VT that are just a few minutes away. I think Saddleback would have to come up with a special experience that people can’t get in similar locations to lure people from over here in Vermont, but perhaps for folks coming from the east and south it’s not quite as daunting.  I would definitely pay at least a nominal fee for the type of experiences I’ve had at the Brandon Gap Backcountry Recreation Area, and Bolton Valley Backcountry Network, but I’m not sure how many people are at that point… yet.

I will say I was very surprised to hear Gregnye comment on how the Mt. Washington backcountry ski experience was so vastly superior to earning turns at any resort, and agree with raisingarizona’s surprise.   I think that that’s absolutely backwards. From a “wilderness” perspective Gregnye is probably correct, and for a spring skiing experience as well, but from a typical winter-long ski season perspective, you’re going to have a better “ski” experience hiking at a resort after a storm almost every time.  It’s possible that Gregnye is part of that sub 1% of skiers for whom Mt. Washington alpine is going to be the optimal/safe environment to get what they’re looking for, but if he’s only been into AT for a couple of years, there are probably more efficient options for quality, safe backcountry/earned turns. If I was goingto visit Mt. Washington for a winter experience, I’d be much more likely to simply hike than ski.   Just based on observations and experiences over the years, if I was to make daily winter trips up to Hojos, after assessing snow safety, winds, temperatures, and the quality of the potential powder conditions, I’d probably be simply heading back down the Sherburne Trail 9 times out of 10, at which point I’d be far better served by just heading to a resort and getting in a lap before the lifts spin, or heading to a below tree line backcountry area. These areas will have a lot more terrain options than just the Sherburne for aspect selection, wind effects, etc.




gregnye said:


> I'm pretty new to the AT scene (I've only been doing it for 2 years) so technically I could be considered part of the people who decided to do it since it became "cool".





gregnye said:


> Around here everyone I know who tours heads up to Mt. Washington. And the parking there is very crowded.



Are you talking specifically about the spring ski season? If that’s the case then I can sort of see it, but for most of the season it’s really the place NOT to be.
 




raisingarizona said:


> Once you have a ton of time and experience with touring I've personally found that it's snow quality that I'm looking for so often during and after a windy storm event you head for protected areas and trees.




J.Spin points to nose.


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## sull1102 (Jul 2, 2018)

The touring world is definitely growing leaps and bounds down here in S VT as well. I know Prospect Mtn right on Rt. 9 outside Bennington seemed to have a lot more downhill traffic this year than the past three at least judging by my observations passing by on the way the Sneaux. I know in Western MA there's a pretty healthy community around Greylock and the Thunderbolt Trail.

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## cdskier (Jul 2, 2018)

J.Spin said:


> Not all areas in the Northeast have the necessary forest composition, terrain, and natural snowfall to support lots of excellent below tree line backcountry skiing, but I know that much of Vermont (especially the farther north you go when it comes to snowfall) does.  I can’t speak for the region as a whole, but similar to what raisingarizona alluded to, the uphill market here in Vermont, especially CVT/NVT feels like it’s exploding relative to where it was a decade or two ago.  This is well recognized by the Vermont Ski Areas, since a majority of them now have uphill travel policies to accommodate interested skiers. Some are more accommodating than others, but overall it’s definitely a popular activity among those willing to earn turns. For many of us it’s simply part of the daily routine – if fresh snow fell, stop by your local resort before work and get some pristine powder turns. Just as notable though are the appearance of purpose-built backcountry areas like the Brandon Gap Backcountry Recreation Area that the Rochester/Randolph Area Sport Trail Alliance (a.k.a. RASTA) has created at Brandon Gap. It had been on my list of places to visit for at least a couple of years, and I finally made in down this past March (trip report link). Having over 20 years of backcountry/sidecountry skiing experience here in Vermont, I can say that what they’ve put together there is really first rate. If you’re looking to get into backcountry skiing and want to see what this type of terrain is all about, I highly recommend checking out what RASTA has done at Brandon Gap.  I’ve only skied a small subset of their terrain thus far, but if you’re comfortable skiing powder in black diamond trees at the typical resorts around here, you’ll be plenty comfortable on the terrain there.  Obviously it’s best to pick an appropriate day with respect to snow conditions, and choose terrain of appropriate pitch for the available depth of the powder for the best experience, but do that and it will be hard to remain unimpressed.   Another great option I’d recommend would be the Bolton Valley Backcountry Network – it offers extremely easy access since it’s part of the resort, although one does have to buy a Nordic day pass.  Unlike the long approaches, logistics, and major commitments required for ski touring in the alpine areas of the Whites, Katahdin, etc. you literally step out of your car at these spots and can be in the good ski terrain in moments.



I drive up and over the Brandon Gap nearly every weekend in the winter. There were definitely several times this year that the parking lots were packed with people doing some backcountry on those new trails. Clearly they must be doing something right there to become so popular so quickly.

That said, I think you're also right that it might be challenging to run a "for profit" area using this model at least at this stage of the game.


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## Cat in January (Jul 4, 2018)

I took gregnye comments as jest and had me wondering if he might possibly be a Greg I know.


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## raisingarizona (Jul 4, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> I took gregnye comments as jest and had me wondering if he might possibly be a Greg I know.



And I’ve been really bored since most of our forests are closed right now due to the extreme fire danger. 

I agree on the for profit touring area would probably be a bust but.....make it like a club with a unique and special community feel and you might just get enough people there, involved and donating to keep the place skiing good.


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## gregnye (Jul 4, 2018)

J.Spin said:


> I always enjoy reading the discussions here at AlpineZone, and while I typically don’t have much to contribute to most of the threads, when I saw the touring conversation, I figured I could weigh in with some helpful perspective.  I’ve skied/toured Mt. Washington numerous times, and as a Northern Vermont local I have very extensive experience ski touring in this area.
> 
> J.Spin points to nose.



Yeah Alpinezone doesn't seem to talk about touring that much. As it is most people on here seem to be hesitant on sharing their secret tree runs and etc.

The touring community is nice in person, but is often hostile online. Just see the Backcountry Touring in the Northeast Facebook group for a perfect example of a drama session.

Same thing here: people here somehow find it offensive that my friends and I find Mt. Washington as really the only thing worthwhile to backcountry ski in New England. That's just our opinion. It's not a fact. However most of the people I tour with would rather ski the woods than hike up a ski resort (whether operational or not).

And I find that it's crowded at Mt. Washington--even midwinter! (Now some cars are ice climbers but still).

And yes, we've checked out a few of the places you listed. And honestly (no sarcasm) thank you for listing ones I've never even heard of. 

I also 100% agree with you that a backcountry-only resort wouldn't make any money. Touring people are very thrifty and do not like to spend money to ski, otherwise they'd just go to a resort. I for one would not pay to go touring (unless it's particularly spectacular--think like the rocky mountains)


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## gregnye (Jul 4, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> I took gregnye comments as jest and had me wondering if he might possibly be a Greg I know.



See my reply above to J.Spin about how online discussion in the touring community often seems hostile for no real reason. I didn't mean to offend and am probably not a Greg you know.

Long story short: I just really don't see how Saddleback could work as a backcountry destination. There's just so much better stuff elsewhere and it's not above the treeline to make it a destination.


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## sull1102 (Jul 4, 2018)

Not sure I think a touring only barebones place can work, but think about other "extreme" sports. The Highland guys took a massive risk opening a downhill mtb only area at a closed ski area years and years before the scene became what it is and the size it is today and now they're a leader in the industry. Then there's the business model of Prospect. They run it as a cross country area and an excellent one at that, they just hosted a major national competition this season, but the owner has always mowed the old NELSAPPED alpine trails and they'll sell you a ticket for cheap and you can then hike up all day. That seems to work almost exactly as you guys are talking about, a bare bones ish/mom and pop type operation with low overhead for touring with the side benefit of cross country crowds coming in to support the place too.

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## Cat in January (Jul 5, 2018)

Cool Greg

I don't think Saddleback can make it as an uphill touring center business.  Too many days when no money would be made.

What I think could work is if the mountain part of the property was broken away from the main property and held in trust.  Allowances would be made for maintaining the glades and trails.  Volunteers would do this work over the summer.  In winter the mountain could be accessed by skiers, snowshoers without charge.   Ideally a non-profit would be formed to oversee the work and use of the mountain.  From the work I have seen the mountain bike community do and the passion the bc skiing community has (good amount of overlap here in Maine) I think this is a viable option.

The vision for what would become of the lodge is beyond me.  It will sell for pennies on the dollar, but there must be a way it can turn a profit.


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## AdironRider (Jul 5, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> Cool Greg
> 
> I don't think Saddleback can make it as an uphill touring center business.  Too many days when no money would be made.
> 
> ...



Viable? You are asking the Berry's to just hand over their land to a trust so you can go bc skiing a couple days a year? 

Good luck with that.


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## Cat in January (Jul 5, 2018)

There was a land trust involved when the Saddleback Foundation was trying to raise funds for the land.  They were going to throw in.  Land has little value for timber harvesting.  House lots could be made up the mountain, but the logistics are steep.

This is all predicated on the mountain asserts being broken up.

Does not seem so far fetched to me.


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## AdironRider (Jul 5, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> There was a land trust involved when the Saddleback Foundation was trying to raise funds for the land.  They were going to throw in.  Land has little value for timber harvesting.  House lots could be made up the mountain, but the logistics are steep.
> 
> This is all predicated on the mountain asserts being broken up.
> 
> Does not seem so far fetched to me.




Little value? At 2k (going rate currently) per acre the Berry's Saddleback holdings have a timber value of over 16 million, just in the trees. 

They aren't going to get their 40 million back, but they aren't just going to give it away because you think it is a shame you can't ski there anymore.


----------



## Cat in January (Jul 5, 2018)

Good luck getting that for the wood between 2k and 4k elevation.  The mountain is a small part of their land holding at Saddleback


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 5, 2018)

I love the idea of a place like Cat described above. If I lived in the Boston area I’d love to have property near a mountain like that.

Maybe it’s never gonna happen for Saddleback but I think that sort of thing is gaining popularity, especially with the high price of ski passes and everything else that goes with the sport. 

I had a random thought earlier today, would Sugarloaf be interested in saddleback? They aren’t too far apart are they?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 5, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> I love the idea of a place like Cat described above. If I lived in the Boston area I’d love to have property near a mountain like that.
> 
> Maybe it’s never gonna happen for Saddleback but I think that sort of thing is gaining popularity, especially with the high price of ski passes and everything else that goes with the sport.
> 
> I had a random thought earlier today, would Sugarloaf be interested in saddleback? They aren’t too far apart are they?


Boyne has kicked the tires.  The numbers didn't make sense.  SB would likely steal more skier visits from Loaf than it would bring newer skiers to the region.  

IMO if Boyne were to expand in the East, the focus should be on an area that gets them into the NY/NJ market.  Stratton or Okemo would be expensive, but good choices for them. Neither likely available anytime soon.  Actually a Boyne/Powdr merger makes a lot of sense to me.  Would compete nicely against Vail and Alterra.  

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## Smellytele (Jul 6, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Boyne has kicked the tires.  The numbers didn't make sense.  SB would likely steal more skier visits from Loaf than it would bring newer skiers to the region.
> 
> IMO if Boyne were to expand in the East, the focus should be on an area that gets them into the NY/NJ market.  Stratton or Okemo would be expensive, but good choices for them. Neither likely available anytime soon.  Actually a Boyne/Powdr merger makes a lot of sense to me.  Would compete nicely against Vail and Alterra.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



What about them buying Smuggs? Or a smaller place like Bromley? I was going to say Bolton but that place seems to always have money/skier visit issues almost as bad as Burke.


----------



## sull1102 (Jul 6, 2018)

Bromley is doing pretty well for themselves in a partnership or semi ownership type relationship with Cranmore and Jiminy Peak.


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## machski (Jul 6, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> What about them buying Smuggs? Or a smaller place like Bromley? I was going to say Bolton but that place seems to always have money/skier visit issues almost as bad as Burke.


Boyne has zero interest in buying any more resorts.

https://www.tcbusinessnews.com/2018...bt-structure-enables-reacquisitions-upgrades/

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## deadheadskier (Jul 7, 2018)

machski said:


> Boyne has zero interest in buying any more resorts.
> 
> https://www.tcbusinessnews.com/2018...bt-structure-enables-reacquisitions-upgrades/
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


....in the next 3 to 5 years

Is what the article says.  A lot can change in that time frame though.  

Maybe they stick to what they have, but I think it would be wise to get into the NJ, NY, CT market.  Having something local to that market would only help drive traffic to their more distant resorts.  A Bromley would work, especially if they could expand it a bit.  

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## machski (Jul 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> ....in the next 3 to 5 years
> 
> Is what the article says.  A lot can change in that time frame though.
> 
> ...


Personally, based on their plans and pace at Big Sky and need for reinvestment at most of the rest of their portfolio, I think they have about zero aquisition capital in that time frame.  They could decide to leverage up again but I think they will be cautious about that.  Since they have parts of the former ASC empire, hopefully they take a lesson from that forray into high leveraged aquisitions.

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## machski (Sep 21, 2018)

Well, Rangley airport is getting a bunch of cash to improve itself, namely a runway extension.  Not sure how much (it needs quite a bit I believe to fit most jets), now they just need to get that ski resort going again.
https://www.apnews.com/2665c120a901408a84b26350b512f1da

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## bdfreetuna (Sep 21, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> A Bromley would work, especially if they could expand it a bit.



Expand Bromley, you say?


----------



## mister moose (Sep 21, 2018)

machski said:


> Well, Rangley airport is getting a bunch of cash to improve itself, namely a runway extension.  Not sure how much (it needs quite a bit I believe to fit most jets), now they just need to get that ski resort going again.
> https://www.apnews.com/2665c120a901408a84b26350b512f1da



Current length is 3,200 feet, adequate for light piston twins and even a basic slow Citation jet. There's lots of factors involved, one of which is what level of safety you want to assume.  There's a difference between what the airplane is capable of if an engine doesn't fail on take-off and you're light on load and fuel, vs heavy load with extra runway for aborting with engine failure.

The extension to 4,300 feet is based on what's known as balanced field length for  B200 King Air, which is the fixed wing med-evac airplane.  It's a smallish corporate turboprop, in the same family as the often seen Beech 1900 19 seat commuter plane.

However you can land most corporate jets into 4,300 feet.

It's a lousy non precision instrument approach there too.


----------



## machski (Sep 22, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Current length is 3,200 feet, adequate for light piston twins and even a basic slow Citation jet. There's lots of factors involved, one of which is what level of safety you want to assume.  There's a difference between what the airplane is capable of if an engine doesn't fail on take-off and you're light on load and fuel, vs heavy load with extra runway for aborting with engine failure.
> 
> The extension to 4,300 feet is based on what's known as balanced field length for  B200 King Air, which is the fixed wing med-evac airplane.  It's a smallish corporate turboprop, in the same family as the often seen Beech 1900 19 seat commuter plane.
> 
> ...


Nice you found the planned extension length.  4300 is decent, could get the Phenom 300 in and out, dry anyway.  Haven't looked at the approaches there, but extended strip first, better RNAV can be added later.

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## skimagic (Oct 31, 2018)

Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A


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## thetrailboss (Oct 31, 2018)

skimagic said:


> Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A



This is very sad.  Not what anyone wanted.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 31, 2018)

skimagic said:


> Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A



And this is my sentiment...



> “One of my criticisms has always been to me they had a responsibility to the community and they haven’t been very forthright on the progress of moving the mountain forward with new owners,” Welch said. “The excuse always is, ‘Well we have to keep everything confidential.’ Well, yeah I guess you do, but on the other side, all of us are paying for that business model.”


----------



## Bostonian (Jul 16, 2019)

Necroing the old thread... but it looks like there is some movement on Saddleback

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=776


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 17, 2019)

Although it states opening the ski area is not a certainty 


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## machski (Jul 17, 2019)

Looking for opportunity zoning or EB-5 options does not speak well to the depth of the pockets of the buyers.  Good luck, would like to see it work out but I'm skeptical this group has the pockets to make Saddleback truly soar.

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## EPB (Jul 18, 2019)

machski said:


> Looking for opportunity zoning or EB-5 options does not speak well to the depth of the pockets of the buyers.  Good luck, would like to see it work out but I'm skeptical this group has the pockets to make Saddleback truly soar.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


Not super familiar with opportunity zoning, but it seems like common sense to take a tax break if the government will give you one. 

One gap I have on EB-5 is the return you need to pay on investment. Do they get shares, or more of a structured return (interest/dividend and potential maturity date). The reason I ask is because it could be cheap financing to go bigger than the market would otherwise allow without dilluting themselves into oblivion. 

To your point, this is a tough development because they need to put up quite a bit of $$$ to attract the right amount of masses to the area.

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## cdskier (Jul 18, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> One gap I have on EB-5 is the return you need to pay on investment. Do they get shares, or more of a structured return (interest/dividend and potential maturity date). The reason I ask is because it could be cheap financing to go bigger than the market would otherwise allow without dilluting themselves into oblivion.



"Need" may not be the right word. Since it is an investment, nothing can be guaranteed and it must involve some level of risk. Generally speaking my impression is that most "honest" projects at least try to pay back the full principal and maybe a tiny amount of interest. But let's be realistic here, the foreign "investors" aren't looking for a big return. They simply want the green card (and this is one of the huge criticisms of this program in that it essentially allows people with money to just buy their way here).


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## EPB (Jul 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> "Need" may not be the right word. Since it is an investment, nothing can be guaranteed and it must involve some level of risk. Generally speaking my impression is that most "honest" projects at least try to pay back the full principal and maybe a tiny amount of interest. But let's be realistic here, the foreign "investors" aren't looking for a big return. They simply want the green card (and this is one of the huge criticisms of this program in that it essentially allows people with money to just buy their way here).


I use the term "need" because if the buyer actually wants to make money off this endeavor (and agreed - normally I wouldn't normally talk this way, but these ski developments seem to have unusually high occurrences of ulterior motives), it could be prudent to take artificially cheap capital from foreigners looking to jump the line rather than raise capital on the merits of the business plan. I personally think it's way too risky of a move for my $$$. 

I don't know if this would be considered sacrilege, but I've wondered if there's a way for a place like SB to strike a deal with an Alterra or Epic (most likely Epic given proximity to SR/SL) where they could get decently paid to take overflow traffic onto their relatively empty mountain. 

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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 18, 2019)

Does anyone have any photos of SB's "snowfields"? I dont think Ive ever gotten a good idea of what they ski like.


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## EPB (Jul 19, 2019)

There might be some pictures on the Facebook account they used to use when they were operational. No idea what the status of it is. I get the sense that they didn't extend too far down from the ridgeline though.... I've been to SB once on a solo trip with some overcast, so I wasn't able to make it out there.

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## Edd (Jul 19, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I don't know if this would be considered sacrilege, but I've wondered if there's a way for a place like SB to strike a deal with an Alterra or Epic (most likely Epic given proximity to SR/SL) where they could get decently paid to take overflow traffic onto their relatively empty mountain.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



You might mean Ikon in regard to SR/SL but, as a Saddleback fan, I’d take pretty much any arrangement that would get the lifts spinning again. Beats the current situation.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2019)

machski said:


> Looking for opportunity zoning or EB-5 options does not speak well to the depth of the pockets of the buyers.  Good luck, would like to see it work out but I'm skeptical this group has the pockets to make Saddleback truly soar.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



So after Q/Jay Peak, getting foreign investors to buy into an EB-5 program for a ski resort project in the Northeast is going to be like selling ice to an Eskimo.  That is unfortunate.  

I know that the current interested buyer has more of a community focus and is more of a non-profit than a typical investment group.  That takes less pressure off in terms of exepctations.  With a hot economy right now, though, costs to buy and operate this place will be higher unfortunately.  

It is too bad that it has been shuttered as long as it has been.  It will take a lot to get folks to come back.  Not an easy task.  

Fingers crossed it works out.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2019)

I'm shocked at what real estate is going for at the mountain.  There are two 2-bedroom units (759 square feet) listed for $198,500.  Two other larger units are listed for $329,000.


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## Edd (Jul 23, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm shocked at what real estate is going for at the mountain.  There are two 2-bedroom units (759 square feet) listed for $198,500.  Two other larger units are listed for $329,000.



Considering the near hopelessness of that situation, that strikes me as pricey. If those same places were right on Rangeley Lake, different story.


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## EPB (Jul 23, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm shocked at what real estate is going for at the mountain.  There are two 2-bedroom units (759 square feet) listed for $198,500.  Two other larger units are listed for $329,000.


Keep in mind those are asking prices. Unless I missed something, according to Zillow, nothing has sold on mountain in years (there were no his on the "recently sold" setting, which picks up 2ish years of sales).

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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2019)

I'd take those prices as owners hoping that overzealous speculators might take the bait thinking the Mountain will come back to life. 

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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd take those prices as owners hoping that overzealous speculators might take the bait thinking the Mountain will come back to life.


Then those owners are fools.  An operating mountain is already priced into their asking price.  So there is no upside for a speculator.  $198,500 for fewer than 800 square feet in Rangely?  Give me a break.


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## EPB (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Then those owners are fools.  An operating mountain is already priced into their asking price.  So there is no upside for a speculator.  $198,500 for fewer than 800 square feet in Rangely?  Give me a break.


It's a bit of a surprise that not a single unit has sold. Speaks well to the owners being reasonable when they bought in because nobody seems to have been forced to sell due to financial hardship. 

100% agree that nobody in their right mind would pay full price for ski in ski out next to a closed mountain. As a property owner, there doesn't seem to be good incentive to fire sell your place when there's still hope.

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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's a bit of a surprise that not a single unit has sold. Speaks well to the owners being reasonable when they bought in because nobody seems to have been forced to sell due to financial hardship.



Are you sure that Zillow actually has sales data for Sandy River Plantation, Maine?  

It could be that some people have not sold because they are upside down and cannot afford to pay off the mortgage if the condo sells for what it is really worth.

I feel badly for the condo owners, that's for sure.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

It looks like Zillow is correct.  I pulled up condo sales data from here:
http://www.mainelistings.com/search/soldlistings/soldsearch-id/2854

No condos sold in Sandy River Plantation in the past twelve months.

That is absolutely shocking.

Only one condo sold in the past three years.  A three bedroom unit sold on 7/28/2016 for $184,900.  That is cheaper than the current one-bedroom condos that are on the market.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Then those owners are fools.  An operating mountain is already priced into their asking price.  So there is no upside for a speculator.  $198,500 for fewer than 800 square feet in Rangely?  Give me a break.


Oh, I definitely don't think they are very bright. I think they are wishfully hoping that someone is reading the news and think the mountain is going to reopen and wants to buy while the price is "low."  I say low as a comparison to Sugarloaf real estate like this as an example.

https://www.beangroup.com/homes/267...-Valley/ME/04947/2261413998/index.html?cnt=14

Similar property for sale at $235K. 

If Saddleback were to reopen and prove that they will be viable long term, that $198K price tag for slopeside probably makes sense.   Personally I'd rather buy into a viable Saddleback than over at Sugarloaf.  Rangeley is a much better four season destination than Carrabassett Valley IMO.

Maybe they hook a sucker while the Mountain is still closed.  Probably not, but it doesn't hurt them to list. 

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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh, I definitely don't think they are very bright. I think they are wishfully hoping that someone is reading the news and think the mountain is going to reopen and wants to buy while the price is "low."  I say low as a comparison to Sugarloaf real estate like this as an example.
> 
> https://www.beangroup.com/homes/267...-Valley/ME/04947/2261413998/index.html?cnt=14
> 
> Similar property for sale at $235K.


Did condos at Saddleback ever sell for as much as condos at Sugarloaf?


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## EPB (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Did condos at Saddleback ever sell for as much as condos at Sugarloaf?


I doubt it. Anyone who bought at Saddleback knew the chances it went under were materially higher than Sugarloaf. You'd have to pick some real estate at Saddleback, find what you deem a comparably nice/sized/located place at Sugarloaf, dig through pricing history and compare. It's doable on Zillow, but probably not worth the effort.

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## dblskifanatic (Apr 17, 2020)

Saw this on jay peaks pass site


SADDLEBACK PARTNERSHIP

New this season, we are partnering with Saddleback in Maine who will be reopening next season. All 2020+21 Jay Peak Season Passholders (Jay Only and Combo) will receive 2 unrestricted lift tickets to ski Saddleback anytime through the 2020+21 Ski/Ride Season.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Saw this on jay peaks pass site
> 
> 
> SADDLEBACK PARTNERSHIP
> ...



Someone mentioned that recently.  Cool.


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## Smellytele (Jun 5, 2020)

I guess doppelmayer is onsite starting the lift install


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## Edd (Jun 5, 2020)

This shit continues to be the best news on skiing. This could be the only lift tickets I buy next year.


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## Dickc (Jul 14, 2020)

The Test Drive Pass
Saddleback is pleased to offer a new way to try the improved mountain experience this winter, The Test Drive Pass.
For only $135.00 (Adults) or $120.00 (Senior, Casablanca, College, Junior) enjoy three, unrestricted, days of skiing or riding and this great price is just half of the deal.

From the date you purchase the Test Drive Pass, until the end of the 14th day Saddleback is open, you can upgrade to a full pass by simply paying the difference. Yes, you receive full credit for the amount already spent. Pass is good all season, not just the first 14 days they're open

The Test Drive Pass will ONLY be available for two months (July & August), so if you’re looking for a new option, big enough to provide you the full, re-invigorated Saddleback experience, this is for you.

info@saddlebackmaine.com
SaddlebackMaine.com

Here is their COVID policy about opening....
Pass Buyer’s COVID-19 Assurance Guarantee
In response to questions some of you have asked, we would like to post our simple assurance plan for all of our pass holders. This assurance guarantee applies specifically to the risks associated with COVID-19. Operating dates limited by weather will not be guaranteed.
If, due to COVID-19, the resort opening is delayed beyond January 1st, all passholders will receive a pro-rated credit for the time lost, to be automatically applied to their ’21 – ’22 season pass purchase.
If, due to COVID-19, the resort closes before March 21st, all pass holders will receive a pro-rated credit to be automatically applied to the ’21 – ’22 season pass purchase.
Based on what we know now, we do not believe COVID-19 will prevent the resort from opening this winter. In the event things change and we are not able to open at all this winter due to the pandemic, passholders will receive a 100% credit to be automatically applied to the ’21 – ’22 season


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## urungus (Aug 18, 2020)

https://www.powder.com/stories/inte...i-resort-will-reopen-after-five-year-closure/


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## Edd (Aug 20, 2020)

I’m surprised at how much work is going into the base lodge, as I’ve said before. Looks like a new roof and replacing floors??

This is one of the nicer and newer lodges in New England. I wonder if there were some build quality problems. 


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## Smellytele (Aug 21, 2020)

One thing they did was expand the floor space onthe2nd floor.


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## Glade Monkey (Aug 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I guess doppelmayer is onsite starting the lift install
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Progressing along and they are flying the towers up today (Friday 8/21) starting around noon.


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## skinowworklater (Aug 21, 2020)

Happy to see Saddleback progressing amid this Covid crap.  I've had my sights on skiing this area for far too long, will pull the trigger on the Test Drive Pass before the month ends for sure.


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## Edd (Aug 28, 2020)

Saddleback installing new HVAC in response to COVID. 


https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020/08/27/ski-resort-hvac/


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## Not Sure (Aug 28, 2020)

Edd said:


> Saddleback installing new HVAC in response to COVID.
> 
> 
> https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020/08/27/ski-resort-hvac/



Nice story but some details about the new system would be nice . UV lights , ???


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## Edd (Aug 28, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Nice story but some details about the new system would be nice . UV lights , ???



I agree, pretty short on details.


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## skinowworklater (Aug 29, 2020)

:idea: Perhaps they need some volunteers to help with glade maintenance?


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## Glade Monkey (Aug 29, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I'd be up for that if they post a work day, preferably mid week, but I'd do a weekend as well.


Looks like they have pros already working on them....a few of the pictures from the "Friends of Saddleback Mountain" FB group


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## Smellytele (Aug 29, 2020)

As for the Berry family - did they really hold out? Seems to me they didn’t have any offers before except for the swindling Australian guy and the nonprofit type group.


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## machski (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks for those pictures GM.  Should be some skilled glade cutters up in those parts considering all the work done in Bracket/Burnt the better part of what, the last decade?

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## machski (Aug 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> As for the Berry family - did they really hold out? Seems to me they didn’t have any offers before except for the swindling Australian guy and the nonprofit type group.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I have to think someone or group made an offer or 2 just for the land but not necessarily to operate a ski resort.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 29, 2020)

I just bought a test drive ticket and booked a house in Rangeley Monday through Friday of NH school vacation week.  Will ski Tu-Th.

Hard to beat at $135 for a three day lift ticket

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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Looks like they have pros already working on them....a few of the pictures from the "Friends of Saddleback Mountain" FB group
> 
> View attachment 27031View attachment 27032View attachment 27033



From what I have heard it is singular as in pro, not pros.  Good for photos though


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## Newpylong (Aug 31, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> As for the Berry family - did they really hold out? Seems to me they didn’t have any offers before except for the swindling Australian guy and the nonprofit type group.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Holding out or not holding out aside, they certainly could have let the place go to shit while not operating but they spent a lot of money out of their pockets to keep the place maintained. Outside of the Rangley and Casumptic the lifts were maintained and so were the buildings, trails and snowmaking. If this was not the case, there would be no opening this year.


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## Smellytele (Aug 31, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Holding out or not holding out aside, they certainly could have let the place go to shit while not operating but they spent a lot of money out of their pockets to keep the place maintained. Outside of the Rangley and Casumptic the lifts were maintained and so were the buildings and snowmaking. If this was not the case, there would be no opening this year.



They had to so they could eventually sell it. Let it go to shit and never be able to sell it.


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## Newpylong (Aug 31, 2020)

Nah. You just wouldn't be able to sell for a turn-key operation.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 1, 2020)

The maintenance was pretty minimal during the last 5 years. Biggest thing they did was run a groomer up the t-bar line occasionally to make it easier for people to skin up.

Besides the Rangeley double, the new owners took out the Sandy double and Cupsuptic T-bar, because they were beyond repair. 
So the only remaining lifts are two newer quads (one which covers the learning terrain downhill from the lodge, and the Kennebago which covers the top half). The new HSQ build is proceeding nicely and they plan to replace the t-bar next year.
Also while expanding the upstairs of the lodge, they had to completely re-shingle the roof. Plus, all the snowmaking pumps were just sent out for rehab. They have started cleaning up the glades and mowing the trails which were getting somewhat overgrown. Last picture I saw of the yurt at bottom of the Kennebago, it didn't look like it could be saved, but hope springs eternal.
I am looking forward to taking a 4 minute ride on the new lift, versus the old (cold) 11 minute ride up. 
I bought a test drive pass.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 4, 2020)

The new lift is starting to look like the brochure! 
(from their FB group page)


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## urungus (Sep 4, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Last picture I saw of the yurt at bottom of the Kennebago, it didn't look like it could be saved, but hope springs eternal.



According to this article the yurt has been removed https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=856


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## Newpylong (Sep 4, 2020)

What a game changer that lift will be.


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## mister moose (Sep 4, 2020)

Only problem now will be the 4 1/2 hour drive from Killington.


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## Edd (Sep 4, 2020)

Do they have the same mountain ops director from the last season they were open? They appear to moving along at a very confident pace. 


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> Do they have the same mountain ops director from the last season they were open? They appear to moving along at a very confident pace.


They still have Jim Quimby and other key long timers. There is new GM and Marketing person who I supposed were hired by Arctaris. 
Since this lift is the only new one that Doppelmayr is installing in New England this summer it is getting all of their attention. 
As for the other updates & upgrades they had 5 years to dream & plan them ;-)


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## x10003q (Sep 4, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I like that Saddleback will be up and running again and all they are doing.
> 
> Now, as to the Berry Family, I think we should acknowledge  and/or thank them for holding out on just selling the resort and that they sold it to a group that would actually revitalize the resort. I mean, in our wildest dreams, did any of us ever really believe anyone would come in, add a detachable quad, rebuild a fairly recently renovated lodge, add COVID inspired HVAC, beef up the snowmaking (which every resort seems to do every year), and more.
> 
> ...



Before you canonize the Berry's, we need to remember the clown show that  they have been running since they bought  SB in 2003. Yes, they get  credit for spending the money, but they also get credit for the horrible  decision making, starting with spending $13 million on the lodge in  2004 before replacing the Rangeley double. Who spends $13 million on a  ski lodge at a mountain that, in 2003, had 15,000 visits? A FGQ replacing Rangeley would have cost $3million (at the time), still leaving $10 million to be spent on the Lodge. This would have shored up the weakest part of SB.

 During the summer of 2008, they replaced the Kennebago T-bar on the upper mountain with a quad instead of replacing the Rangeley lift to get to the upper mountain.
In 2012 they put SB on the market for a ridiculous $12 million and that only included the 400 acre ski area and lodge, not all the rest of the 8000 acres they own for expansion. How could anybody consider SB worth $12 million when they probably never cracked 100k visits and the Rangeley double main lift needing to be replaced?
In the summer of 2015, after spending $40million since 2003 (the Berry's number), they finally drew a line in the sand and it was over financing the older than dirt and now broken and unfixable Rangely Double. At the same time, the Cupsuptic T-bar (for upper mountain access) also needed to be replaced.

Then, in 2017,  after every major ski company in the US passes on SB, they announce a deal with a guy who had zero experience with ski areas, no sign of financing, and property tax issues in Portland, Me. As anybody with an internet connection could see, this guy was a fraud and was soon arrested in Australia for trying to pull another RE scam. This wasted another year or 2.

It took the miracle and funny financing of Arctaris Impact Fund( they solicited donations in order to close the deal!?!?!?!?) for the Berry's to finally sell, after wasting 8 years from their initial attempt to sell SB. 

I only hope the Saddleback timeline gets better.


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## Smellytele (Sep 4, 2020)

x10003q said:


> Before you canonize the Berry's, we need to remember the clown show that  they have been running since they bought  SB in 2003. Yes, they get  credit for spending the money, but they also get credit for the horrible  decision making, starting with spending $13 million on the lodge in  2004 before replacing the Rangeley double. Who spends $13 million on a  ski lodge at a mountain that, in 2003, had 15,000 visits? A FGQ replacing Rangeley would have cost $3million (at the time), still leaving $10 million to be spent on the Lodge. This would have shored up the weakest part of SB.
> 
> During the summer of 2008, they replaced the Kennebago T-bar on the upper mountain with a quad instead of replacing the Rangeley lift to get to the upper mountain.
> In 2012 they put SB on the market for a ridiculous $12 million and that only included the 400 acre ski area and lodge, not all the rest of the 8000 acres they own for expansion. How could anybody consider SB worth $12 million when they probably never cracked 100k visits and the Rangeley double main lift needing to be replaced?
> ...



This[emoji1312]


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## Newpylong (Sep 4, 2020)

Sadly I would have to agree.

I will add one more: the decision to install an airless snowmaking system on a mountain of that size. Whoever decided to do that should be taken out to the woodshed.


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## Not Sure (Sep 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> I agree, pretty short on details.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39E0TQcgTK4&ab_channel=NEWSCENTERMaine

Well a tiny bit more detail ? Not sure exactly what hes referring to by " Moving more air " Maybe more make up air?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 5, 2020)

I guess I didn't realize/hear that the Sandy Double was also in such poor shape that it needed to be removed. Well, less infrastructure to maintain then. Too bad some of it's parts couldn't be sent to Eaton Mountain or another needy feeder hill to repair/improve their lift systems.


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## kbroderick (Sep 7, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> ...
> The Berry's have always held the line, along with even some of the folks here, that a HSQ would be a mistake, and an expensive one, for a resort like Saddleback. It's been my opinion that an HSQ is vital to resorts. It attracts newbie skiers who don't like getting on fixed grip lifts that need to be bumped by a liftie. That still is my opinion, and I was pleasantly surprised to read that is what Arctaris is doing.  How many of us would have the stones to invest 40 million into a ski resort that never topped 100K visits in a season? And that HSQ is what? 8 Million of that total? I believe, that if they are going to succeed, they need that HSQ. Not sure the investment will be justified, but I certainly hope so.
> 
> Just for kicks, here is the website to Artaris, showing their portfolio.
> ...



The big difference is capitalization. You get to make a lot more learning decisions while running a ski area if you have the capital available to continue operating and deal with unexpected expenses while also pouring some of your money into boondoggles of your choice.

With that said, I'm also curious how the HSQ will work out. Last time I was near-enough a lift-installation decision to hear numbers, the install cost of a HSQ was about twice that of a fixed-grip, but that wasn't the show-stopper: the operational cost is also substantially higher, possibly even double. It's one thing to suck it up and spend a few more million on a capital expenditure to provide a better experience despite a longer ROI; it's another when the increased capital also results in significant increase in daily operating expenses.

With that said, Arctaris seems to have plenty of smart folks involved who know more about the details than anyone posting here, so I hope they're right. I'd love to see Saddleback back up and running as a successful smaller resort, even if it roughly 45 minutes northeast of nowhere.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 8, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> I hadn't considered the added cost of maintenance of a HSQ. Again, hoping for the best, and certainly, the HSQ id very attractive to newbies.


No idea about costs (initial or ongoing) but the biggest issue I've seen with detachables, especially around New England, is that it takes much longer to get them back online after an icing event.


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## mister moose (Sep 8, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Last time I was near-enough a lift-installation decision to hear numbers, the install cost of a HSQ was about twice that of a fixed-grip, but that wasn't the show-stopper: the operational cost is also substantially higher, possibly even double. It's one thing to suck it up and spend a few more million on a capital expenditure to provide a better experience despite a longer ROI; it's another when the increased capital also results in significant increase in daily operating expenses.





uphillklimber said:


> I hadn't considered the added cost of maintenance of a HSQ. Again, hoping for the best, and certainly, the HSQ id very attractive to newbies.


A HSQ was a major factor in what did in Ascutney, the last few years they didn't run it at all due to the operating expense, they just ran the less expensive fixed grips.

Hopefully that doesn't portend Saddleback's future, but Ascutney had far better proximity, and was just minutes off 91.  Less snowfall and vertical, but an established condo village and near Okemo and Killington.

It's a gamble, and hopefully they'll pull the full house from two pair.


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## EPB (Sep 8, 2020)

mister moose said:


> A HSQ was a major factor in what did in Ascutney, the last few years they didn't run it at all due to the operating expense, they just ran the less expensive fixed grips.
> 
> Hopefully that doesn't portend Saddleback's future, but Ascutney had far better proximity, and was just minutes off 91.  Less snowfall and vertical, but an established condo village and near Okemo and Killington.
> 
> It's a gamble, and hopefully they'll pull the full house from two pair.



I believe it was the Storm Skiing Podcast with the Liftblog.com founder where I heard recently that HSQs are indeed roughly 2x as expensive to build and run/maintain than FGQs.

I never made it to Ascutney, but my sense is that it suffered from having too many "better" options in close proximity. While certainly a cautionary tale, each situation is unique. 

It's impossible to know now, but I think going all in with the detachable is the right move. It will really improve the guest experience for intermediates (better laps on that lift) and experts (improved access to and from the main base). As I've probably mentioned here before, the investment by Arctaris is likely a failure anyway if they can't attract enough people to Saddleback to justify the high speed lift. They must be thinking bigger than that to bother.

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## machski (Sep 8, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> That happens when the haul rope ices up. Not so much a problem detaching, but for them to re attach to the icy cable, that's the issue.


Not fully true.  An iced haul rope is a problem for both fixed and detach lifts.  The issue with detaches is when the friction pad on the grip gets iced.  This causes chaos in the terminals as the cadence tires slip rather than push the chair along on the iced friction pad.  It is worse if the resort uses non pneumatic tires on the detaches (as Sunday River does).

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## x10003q (Sep 9, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> To be certain, they made mistakes. Please show me any ski area that has made zero mistakes. Their intentions were always in the right place, if not their choices. At any given time, anyone, even you, could have stepped up, bought the place and showed everyone the proper way to run a ski resort.



It is not a question of making zero mistakes as mistakes happen. It is a question multiple of cascading mistakes. Many major decisions they made were wrong or in the wrong order. Yes, their intentions were in the right spot, but they  were long time SB skiers and should have seen what a problem the Rangeley double was going to be. They touched it up when they bought it, but it should have been the first thing replaced. They clearly had the money to replace it.

Here is another major mistake that is never discussed. They wildly overpaid for SB. There are multiple sources that put the price at around $8million. How is that even possible? Did they feel sorry for the previous owner? Maybe the 8000 acres of lumber has value? The ski area had to have negative value based on 15k visits/year, the location, and the old and outdated lifts. So the Berry's first major mistake was what they paid for SB. All these mistakes led them to putting SB on the market only 10 years later. Based on all the wonderful and exciting expansion maps we saw, I doubt that was the plan. The Berry's bought the place to run a small profit, not run a charity.



uphillklimber said:


> As far as the deal with the Australian guy who got arrested, initially, everyone was hailing him as the hero, and no one with an internet connection was saying this guy is a fraud. it wasn't until a few months down the road that everything started coming out. Remember, he owned or had interest in a condo on mountain and wanted this resort working???


Sebastian Monsour, the CEO of the Majella Group, made multiple claims about the Majella Group before the deal was announced in June, 2017. None were true. There were tax issues with the 'Majella' project at the  Williston-West Church in Portland that his father Frank Monsour purchased in Portland when the deal was announced. This property went into foreclosure Feb, 2019. Sebastian Monsour also claimed to be a leading developer in Brisbane, Australia, yet he could not point to any projects. 



uphillklimber said:


> I do agree with you about the odd choice to build up the lodge and not replace that fixed grip main lift. Back when I was working Sunday River, in 2015 or so, they had a town hall meeting, explaining the choice of a carpet loader for Spruce Lift, as opposed to a HSD lift. The carpet loader at the time was a couple hundred thousand, while a HSQ was about 5 million, IIRC. (I'll admit I am a little fuzzy on this number, but it was more than a couple million). Pretty easy decision to go with a carpet loader, which, IMO is less than the success they were hoping for. But I digress, just trying to show perspective on pricing of lifts.
> 
> The Berry's have always held the line, along with even some of the folks here, that a HSQ would be a mistake, and an expensive one, for a resort like Saddleback. It's been my opinion that an HSQ is vital to resorts. It attracts newbie skiers who don't like getting on fixed grip lifts that need to be bumped by a liftie. That still is my opinion, and I was pleasantly surprised to read that is what Arctaris is doing.  How many of us would have the stones to invest 40 million into a ski resort that never topped 100K visits in a season? And that HSQ is what? 8 Million of that total? I believe, that if they are going to succeed, they need that HSQ. Not sure the investment will be justified, but I certainly hope so.



I agree with this. A HSQ is a huge expense and a huge marketing tool. However, if the Berry's put in a cheaper FGQ (nobody would have questioned it) in 2004, they would still be owners of SB today. When you finally get people to drive up to the middle of nowhere and they have to wait on a lift line for the main lift at an empty ski area, they are never coming back. 



uphillklimber said:


> Just for kicks, here is the website to Artaris, showing their portfolio.
> https://arctaris.com/portfolio-companies/
> I don't see any other ski resorts listed there. How do these folks have any more experience than the fraudster from Australia with ski resorts? that being said, I do like what they are doing. They hired back a bunch of folks in the industry and who had previously worked at Saddleback. They are actually tossing improvements into the resort. As you suggest, why so much money into the lodge. The Berry's felt this important, as now does Artaris. I felt the lodge just needed some roof repairs, and they stripped it completely, ice and water dammed the whole thing and re-roofed it. Class 1 job, for sure, but did they really need to spend that much? And expanding the lodge, which was recently improved? Did they need to do that? They are doing some of the same things that the Berry's are being criticized for.



Yes, Arctaris is headed down a shaky road with the lodge. I fear SB will suffer the same fate with Arctaris. The number of  skiers needed to even break even on the current spending is well beyond  any visits in Saddleback's history. There is a reason that Alterra/Vail/Powdr/Peak Resorts/ and any number of smaller skiing companies did not buy Saddleback.
 The Arcteris lodge spend does not say much about the Berry's spending if the lodge needs so much work. What exactly did the Berry's get for the $13 million?



uphillklimber said:


> I suppose I should have bought the place and showed everyone how to properly run a ski resort, eh? Not happening, from me, you or anyone else on this forum. My hat is off to whoever takes up the mantle of running a ski resort. You know the old joke about ski resorts? How do you end up a millionaire running a ski resort? Start out as a billionaire.


I would guess that most of us would have replaced the Rangely double  before spending an outrageous $13 million on the lodge. It does not take a  lot of expertise to make that decision.


uphillklimber said:


> I'm not ready to canonize the Berry's, despite your suggestion, how about you back off on totally demonizing them a little bit?


My intention was not to demonize the Berry's. By all accounts, they seem to be lovely people. But we cannot ignore what they did at Saddleback. Just a simple reordering of the $40million spend would have had much better results for them and the people of Rangeley. The fact that they needed to sell the place after 10 years (at a laughable ask as they knew the numbers) despite the $40 million they spent is all we need to know.


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## mister moose (Sep 9, 2020)

x10003q said:


> I agree with this. A HSQ is a huge expense and a huge marketing tool. However, if the Berry's put in a cheaper FGQ (nobody would have questioned it) in 2004, they would still be owners of SB today. When you finally get people to drive up to the middle of nowhere and *they have to wait on a lift line for the main lift at an empty ski area*, they are never coming back.



Wait a minute.  How do you wait in line at an empty area?????

A fixed grip quad spits out 2,400 skiers in an hour.  On any given moment you have something like 300 people on the lift.  If it takes 6 minutes average to ski down, you have about 250 people on the trail pod.  For a 6 minute line, you have 250 people in line.  That's 800 people.  plus the other lifts and lodge occupants, call it 1,500 people.  That's a tenth of their skier visits and it isn't more than a 6 minute lift line.  

Capacity wise, the FG quad would have done fine.  You're going for the vibe, the low crowd, the snow, the remote resort.  You're not going to turn back because it takes 4-5 minutes less to ride the main lift.  "Let's drive for an eternity so we can save 5 minutes for 12 lift rides", said no one ever.


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## mister moose (Sep 9, 2020)

All good points.  Everything is better except the expense.  (and the ice susceptibility)  

If you spend 3 million more on the HSQ than the FG, over 30 years at 5% interest that's $386,000 more you have to recover each year.  IF you can get 30 year financing, I'd think that doubtful.  To pay for that at $80 a ticket you need 4,800 more skier visits.  At $60 a ticket you need 6,400 more visits.  Plus the added maintenance.  That's a fair bit of added skier visits for an area garnering 15,000 visits.  If you can only get 15 year financing for a depreciating mechanical asset, double those numbers.  Higher cost Venture Capital rates, add more.  All this on an unproven track record of being able to deliver sufficient skier visits before the shutdown.

Someone smarter than me has looked at these numbers and made that gamble, so it's now wait and see.

What multiple of 15,000 do you think is Pico's skier visits?  Jay has 300,000 visits, and has 1, count em, one HSQ, and a tram.  How come the Jet and the Bonnie are still fixed grip?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 9, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> When you cheap out, you tend to pay for it every year in increased maintenance.



Probably why the ENTIRE roof was done on the lodge this summer. To NOT do it half-assed, and end up continually fixing prior mistakes. 

A lot of old carpenters and roofers always told me, that your roof is about 25% the value of your building. If you've got crap up top, that's all you'll end up with underneath it.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 9, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Wait a minute.  How do you wait in line at an empty area?????
> 
> A fixed grip quad spits out 2,400 skiers in an hour.  On any given moment you have something like 300 people on the lift.  If it takes 6 minutes average to ski down, you have about 250 people on the trail pod.  For a 6 minute line, you have 250 people in line.  That's 800 people.  plus the other lifts and lodge occupants, call it 1,500 people.  That's a tenth of their skier visits and it isn't more than a 6 minute lift line.
> 
> Capacity wise, the FG quad would have done fine.  You're going for the vibe, the low crowd, the snow, the remote resort.  You're not going to turn back because it takes 4-5 minutes less to ride the main lift.  "Let's drive for an eternity so we can save 5 minutes for 12 lift rides", said no one ever.



I believe *x10003q *meant standing in line for the double, and that no-one would have questioned a fixed-grip quad install back in 2004.


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## Edd (Sep 9, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I believe *x10003q *meant standing in line for the double, and that no-one would have questioned a fixed-grip quad install back in 2004.



My thought also.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

The only time I skied Saddleback was the last year of the Kennebago T-Bar.  It was a Saturday in February after a rain event.  They had one groomed run each off of the two T-Bars, two off the Rangeley and the beginner run down below.  Everything else was glazed over from the rain and barely skiable.  The line for the Rangeley was 20-30 minutes most of the day.  I was quite surprised and thought it was a bad decision when they replaced the Kennebago with a quad the following summer and not the Rangeley.  

The only reason I have booked our family ski vacation there for this winter is because they are replacing the Rangeley.

I'm hopeful that the new HSQ investment hasn't taken away from their snowmaking and grooming budget.  They need to be able to offer more than five skiable trails midwinter following a rain event if they are going to be successful in syphoning off enough skier visits from Sugarloaf, Shawnee and Sunday River to be a sustainable resort.  I think given their terrain, elevation and the four season appeal of Rangeley, they very well could get to 150k+ skier visits (at the expense of mainly Sugarloaf, Sunday River and Shawnee) to make it work. 

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## x10003q (Sep 10, 2020)

uphillklimber said:


> x10003q, I appreciate the discourse with you. Many good points.


Thanks, same here.



uphillklimber said:


> I do think you are correct, about the first thing that I would have done is change out the old lift. Well, maybe not first, but within a year or two, anyways. It would have been closer to the beginning of the 40 Million spend out.
> 
> In the end, it was their money and their choice of what to do with their money. We can all armchair quarterback them to death, but they put their money where their mouth was, and it just didn't work out. I respect that they put their money where their mouth was, something many do not do.
> 
> Speaking of money, while they put money into the place, they were selling tickets, and generating some kind of income. They also had operating expenses and wages coming out of that. I'd be interested to know, even roughly, how all of that figures into the financial picture.



This.
Maybe we should have pretended to be Australian developers to get a look at the financials. It worked for S Monsour.:smile:



uphillklimber said:


> I truly hope Artaris goes something like the Libra foundation did for Black Mountain of Maine. Deep enough pockets that they made the best decisions they could without having to cheap out and built a solid base. When you cheap out, you tend to pay for it every year in increased maintenance.
> 
> All I know is that I will certainly be checking out the resort this winter. Anxiously awaiting snow all over Maine.



I hope Arctaris figures it out. This might be the best season to enjoy SB.


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## x10003q (Sep 10, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I believe *x10003q *meant standing in line for the double, and that no-one would have questioned a fixed-grip quad install back in 2004.





Edd said:


> My thought also.



Yes. Thank you.


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## Edd (Sep 15, 2020)

Nice. 


https://www.instagram.com/p/CFH5Jj0MqBG/?igshid=8cxpxmzq9l7s


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2020)

5 years!!!!  That is amazing generosity.  I'm sure Rangley doesn't have thousands of kids in the school but still that's really cool and a great way to get kids and their full price paying parents on the hill.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2020)

> *saddlebackmaine
> *
> 
> An  anonymous donor, with close ties to the region, announced a gift to  make Saddleback Mountain and skiing/riding accessible to every child in  the Rangeley schools FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS!  Yes, minds blown by this  generosity and the positive impact it will have on so many kids.



Wow, very generous, for 5 Years.


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## kbroderick (Sep 16, 2020)

Interesting article today, including the tidbit that they're targeting 150-180k skier visits per year, and that they went with the HSQ because otherwise they'd be running out of capacity around 100k.

https://www.pressherald.com/2020/09...s-to-build-solar-farm-new-mid-mountain-lodge/


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## mister moose (Sep 16, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Interesting article today, including the tidbit that they're targeting 120-150k skier visits per year, and that they went with the HSQ because otherwise they'd be running out of capacity around 100k.
> 
> https://www.pressherald.com/2020/09...s-to-build-solar-farm-new-mid-mountain-lodge/



Not quite what they said:

A third fix, he told commissioners, is underway in the installation of a new high-speed chairlift: “The capacity of the existing lift system would max out at about 100,000 skier visits a year and that is a number that cannot sustain Saddleback as a ski resort.”

They went with a quad because the existing [double] chairlift would have been unable to sustain 100k visits.  The High Speed over Fixed Grip was a different decision.  Both a HSQ and FGQ carry 2,400 skiers per hour, no difference except in ride time and operating costs.


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## Newpylong (Sep 17, 2020)

The third difference, perhaps being the most important, is perception/marketing value.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 17, 2020)

so is it really reasonable to lure 120-150k skiers to Saddleback?  Its really far away from anywhere...


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 17, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so is it really reasonable to lure 120-150k skiers to Saddleback?  Its really far away from anywhere...


They're actually aiming higher according to the article: “Saddleback needs to be in the 150,000-180,000 skier visits a year (range) to be economically sustainable,” Federle said.

Nearby Sugarloaf attracts 400K per season, also per the article. But they also have many, many times the number of condos so a built in clientele.


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## kbroderick (Sep 17, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> They're actually aiming higher according to the article: “Saddleback needs to be in the 150,000-180,000 skier visits a year (range) to be economically sustainable,” Federle said.
> 
> Nearby Sugarloaf attracts 400K per season, also per the article. But they also have many, many times the number of condos so a built in clientele.



Oops. Apparently I wasn't fully attentive when I read that.

Re: HSQ vs fixed-grip capacity: yes, theoretical capacity is the same, and it may actually be pretty close if you compare a carpet-load fixed-grip to a detachable. In the real world, global pandemics aside, it's much easier to fill more seats on a detach, with fewer stops, than on a fixed-grip lift with a normal load ramp. (or at least it sure *seems* that way—I'd love to see someone actually present numbers based on monitoring loading during peak times, but it would be tough to take the customers out of the equation—you'd need similarly experienced guests at both lifts).


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## Killingtime (Sep 17, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> The third difference, perhaps being the most important, is perception/marketing value.



It's been closed for awhile and to be honest, its fallen off the radar for a lot of people. Can they eventually do 40-50% of the business Sugarloaf does? Personally I think its going to be difficult. A lot of my ski friends have never even heard of the place. Everyone knows SR/SL. Saddleback is tentatively on my calendar during the week I was originally planning for Colorado.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 17, 2020)

Killingtime said:


> It's been closed for awhile and to be honest, its fallen off the radar for a lot of people. Can they eventually do 40-50% of the business Sugarloaf does? Personally I think its going to be difficult. A lot of my ski friends have never even heard of the place. Everyone knows SR/SL. Saddleback is tentatively on my calendar during the week I was originally planning for Colorado.


Five years closed is a long time! The place almost ended up on the NELSAP list. They had to remove the old double chair and t-bar, as both were too far gone to repair. 
This season there will only be three lifts: a fixed grip quad for the beginner area below the lodge, the new HSQ going up the middle, and the Kennebago FGQ going to the top. They are promising "fair pricing" for tickets and I bought a "test drive" pass good for any 3 days for $135. I agree that it has fallen off many radars, and think this season their customer base will be mostly Mainers including curious people coming over from Sugarloaf for a day or two. I also think some Jay Peak season passholders may take advantage of two free days there too. Opening day has been set for December 15th. So, if they close in mid April that gives 120+/- days and they would need to average 1000 people per day.  I hope for the best and look forward to getting back.


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## dlague (Sep 17, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Interesting article today, including the tidbit that they're targeting 150-180k skier visits per year, and that they went with the HSQ because otherwise they'd be running out of capacity around 100k.
> 
> https://www.pressherald.com/2020/09...s-to-build-solar-farm-new-mid-mountain-lodge/



Let’s go with the idea that they will be open for 150-160 days per season and let’s go with 150,000 skier visits

That averages out to about 1000 people skiing per day - why does that seem high?  That is 1000 people every single day!  Granted weekends will carry the weight but weekdays it probably will be close to a ghost town.


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## kbroderick (Sep 17, 2020)

dlague said:


> Let’s go with the idea that they will be open for 150-160 days per season and let’s go with 150,000 skier visits
> 
> That averages out to about 1000 people skiing per day - why does that seem high?  That is 1000 people every single day!  Granted weekends will carry the weight but weekdays it probably will be close to a ghost town.



I'd be shocked if they ran lifts much, if any, beyond Thanksgiving to Easter. Going earlier requires taking advantage of marginal (i.e. inefficient) snowmaking windows; going much later it tends to be difficult to scare up customers.

With that said, assuming 36 weekend days (18 weeks, November to April), 150,000 / 36 is about 4,200 skier-visits averaged per weekend day. That's a bit less than a third of a busy day at Sunday River (based on the numbers cited in the podcast last year); even if you figured 3800 (with the rest being midweek skier-days), that seems...optimistic...for Rangely.


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## machski (Sep 17, 2020)

I don't see this article saying they need to hit 150K skier/rider days THIS season, that is what they need to hit to be sustainable overall.  I seriously doubt their business plan would hinge on making that volume of visits in their first season back.  I would think 75-100K would put them over the moon this year, pointing to that 150K as being very attainable moving forward.

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## Edd (Sep 17, 2020)

Price drops announced on a couple of their passes. 


https://www.instagram.com/p/CFPr7CwsE3n/?igshid=173um0gtzdxvv


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## Killingtime (Sep 17, 2020)

dlague said:


> Let’s go with the idea that they will be open for 150-160 days per season and let’s go with 150,000 skier visits
> 
> That averages out to about 1000 people skiing per day - why does that seem high?  That is 1000 people every single day!  Granted weekends will carry the weight but weekdays it probably will be close to a ghost town.
> 
> ...



I think 120 skier days is more likely (roughly December to March). If they make it into April I would expect it to be weekends only. Anyway, I've already put Saddleback is on the list this year. If the experience is good I'll be repeat customer. If not, its back to SR and SL for my Maine trips.


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## kbroderick (Sep 17, 2020)

machski said:


> I don't see this article saying they need to hit 150K skier/rider days THIS season, that is what they need to hit to be sustainable overall.  I seriously doubt their business plan would hinge on making that volume of visits in their first season back.  I would think 75-100K would put them over the moon this year, pointing to that 150K as being very attainable moving forward.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Agreed; based on what they've said so far, I'd expect it's highly likely they have a master plan to go with that level of visitation, with a plausible timeframe to get there. I just remain skeptical given the driving distance to major population centers, particularly the "it feels like we're about to hear banjo music" element on a non-trivial chunk of the drive.


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## x10003q (Sep 17, 2020)

After 5 years with the doors closed and the effect of COVID, Saddleback might do 50K visits this season. They will need to take 120K visits from Sunday River and Sugarloaf going forward to make SB sustainable (Actaris number). I wonder what the plan is to try and capture these skiers visits. Currently, there is not enough lodging around SB to support this level of visits.


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## Smellytele (Sep 17, 2020)

When they were opened they stole me from sugarloaf a few times a year. Much better doing a 3 /4 day weekend splitting my days between the 2. Don’t care to ski Sunday River. Although I use to a lot back in the early 90’s. 


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## Cat in January (Sep 17, 2020)

x10003q said:


> After 5 years with the doors closed and the effect of COVID, Saddleback might do 50K visits this season. They will need to take 120K visits from Sunday River and Sugarloaf going forward to make SB sustainable (Actaris number). I wonder what the plan is to try and capture these skiers visits. Currently, there is not enough lodging around SB to support this level of visits.



This is why it went unsold for so long.  Numbers don’t add up.  Arctaris is not in the ski business.  Their stated plan is to flip it in under ten years.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 18, 2020)

30 jobs (many with multiple openings) are now posted for up there if anyone wants to move up and enjoy the whole season as most include a season pass.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 22, 2020)

I think they are going to do a LOT better this season than people are expecting them to do. Too bad someone couldn't drop in a couple realistic sized motels close by.


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## Glade Monkey (Oct 16, 2020)

https://www.sunjournal.com/2020/10/...r-saddlebacks-new-lodge-and-solar-farm-plans/

Saddleback's future expansions had a hearing before the Land Use Regulatory Committee this week. There were two main objections:
Appalachian Trail doesn't want hikers to see a new 35 acre solar array 3 miles away.
Audubon doesn't want the new mid-mountain lodge to kill birds.


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## Edd (Nov 14, 2020)

Haven’t listened yet. If the link doesn’t work properly look for the Saddleback episode. It’s the latest one. 









						Listen to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast on TuneIn
					

Everyone’s searching for skiing’s soul. I’m trying to find its brains. www.stormskiing.com




					tunein.com


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## salsgang (Nov 14, 2020)

Saddleback is almost.... Back! We will see how it all works out in the end business wise, but I am rooting for them. I posted a 2020-21 season preview of the mountain on my blog. 

http://www.maineskifamily.com/2020/11/saddleback-maine-2020-21-ski-season-preview.html


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## Newpylong (Nov 14, 2020)

They made snow on the down low as a test last week for the first time since they closed.


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## Edd (Nov 16, 2020)

Edd said:


> Haven’t listened yet. If the link doesn’t work properly look for the Saddleback episode. It’s the latest one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This turned out to be good. Great to hear people talking about re-opening the mountain in serious terms. I didn’t know they have an “unlimited“ water source for snowmaking, Saddleback Lake.


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## Terry (Dec 15, 2020)

Today is the day! Hope all goes smoothly today. Hope to hear some trip reports later.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2020)

I saw pics of their opening of the HSQ yesterday.  Looks great!


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