# Gas shortage?



## ALLSKIING (Apr 21, 2006)

It might be time to fill up.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/21/markets/oil/index.htm?cnn=yes


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## dmc (Apr 21, 2006)

We're pretty f'd...

We gotta figure out a way to get the countries that have oil to like us...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2006)

Seems like hype to me....manipulation in my book ("gosh, better buy gas because there are rumors of shortages...")  There are no doubts about political problems, but I find it interesting that after a warm winter, gas has marched up in almost $1 a gallon in prices in about five weeks (it was about $2.05 in the last week of February and now is running from $2.75-2.85).  Seems like "someone" is trying to make up for lost profits.


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## salida (Apr 21, 2006)

Everyone knows we are running out of gas, come on guys.  Diminishing supply, spiking demand, of course the stuff is worth its weight in gold...


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## dmc (Apr 21, 2006)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Seems like hype to me....manipulation in my book ("gosh, better buy gas because there are rumors of shortages...")  There are no doubts about political problems, but I find it interesting that after a warm winter, gas has marched up in almost $1 a gallon in prices in about five weeks (it was about $2.05 in the last week of February and now is running from $2.75-2.85).  Seems like "someone" is trying to make up for lost profits.




I think we all know why gas is expensive...  But I promised Gregg I'd be a good boy... So I am...


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## andyzee (Apr 21, 2006)

Time to give the 4Runner a break and start driving the Civic more. Not a problem since ski season is pretty much over. Bring it on!


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## Mike P. (Apr 21, 2006)

We aren't on any OPEC nations good list & trouble in South America does not help either.  In addition starting soon, they are switching additives & there is some concern they can not produce enough of the additive.

China is also using a lot more than before so there is a bigger demand for it.  I'm curious how can Southwest still offer a $46.00 ticket from Manchester, NH to Philadelphia.  If you've got an SUV, you probably can't drive there for that.

We need more hybrid & alternative cars, or at least better mileage.  If my car is a little slower or I have problems with the new technology I'm okay with that.  I don't think I'm too comfortable with the idea of being in a jet running on electric power.

Lost profits, are you kidding, Exxon just had record profits last year & the outgoing CEO got a retirement package likely worth more than all of AZ's members will make this year combined!!!!!!!!!


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## dmc (Apr 21, 2006)

Mike P. said:
			
		

> Exxon just had record profits last year & the outgoing CEO got a retirement package likely worth more than all of AZ's members will make this year combined!!!!!!!!!



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's more then our lifetime salaries combined


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 21, 2006)

I just paid $3.15 for regular:blink: Super is up to $3.50 in my area.


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## BeanoNYC (Apr 21, 2006)

dmc said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's more then our lifetime salaries combined



He made  $144,000  a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2006)

i honestly can't wait to see $6 a gallon.  bring it the heck on.  please!  it is going to hurt my pocket, but it will make alternative fuel and hybrids economically viable and decrease consumption.  bring $6 on i say, don't stop at $3.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2006)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> He made  $144,000  a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!



But that is not enough!  :roll:  They want MORE.  :evil:


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 21, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> i honestly can't wait to see $6 a gallon.  bring it the heck on.  please!  it is going to hurt my pocket, but it will make alternative fuel and hybrids economically viable and decrease consumption.  bring $6 on i say, don't stop at $3.


I know what your saying but $6 would cost me over 1k a month in gas to operate my business.:blink:


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## salida (Apr 21, 2006)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> He made  $144,000  a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!


He also lead the world's largest company.

Mike Musina makes 16,000 a pitch...  I'd rather pay someone to deliver petroleum than throw baseballs.

PS:  Look into Polylactic Acid, Ethelene Glycol, and some other chemicals to make a big appearance soon on the biofuels market...


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## Npage148 (Apr 21, 2006)

As to not hurt business, they should split gas prices.  Businesses should get a near no profit gas price and then we can let all the non business go up to 6 a gallon. It would cost me a little more, I wouldnt care.  I could easily switch over to 90% mass transit/cycling to get places. A 12 mile one way commute to school would do wonders for me!   Im sure it would hurt alot of people including my parents who live in rural NY, but it's what we need to kick off alt fuels and making more people use mass transt.  In buffalo, at least, mass transit is severely underutilized and it is just becasue people are too lazy to try.


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## John84 (Apr 21, 2006)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> He made  $144,000  a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yeah, but he still has to look like this every day.


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## Marc (Apr 21, 2006)

salida said:
			
		

> Everyone knows we are running out of gas, come on guys.  Diminishing supply, spiking demand, of course the stuff is worth its weight in gold...



Yeah, actually gold has been up over $600 an ounce.  By comparison, crude and refined gasoline are dirt cheap.

Gas is still only slightly more expensive now than a gallon of "spring" water from the grocery store.


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## Marc (Apr 21, 2006)

Political unrest in Iran, political unrest in Nigeria, political unrest in Iraq....

and we're approaching the summer driving season when historically, every year this time of year gas prices have always increased due to increased demand.

Now obviously we don't have an unlimited amount of crude on this planet, but right now it is supply shortage due to current drilling and refining capacity and the inreased demand from China and India, not because we can't find any more deposits.  Not to mention the fact that there are still a number of large platforms in the Gulf of Mexico offline from Katrina and Rita.



Basically everything that can drive gas prices up right now are running full steam. Did anyone expect to see prices stay the same?

A barrel of crude was going for a record $72 this week, yes, but bear in mind a barrel of oil inflation adjusted at the peak of the gas crisis in the '70's was up around $130 a barrel.



Let's all take a deep breath and not let irrational behaivor drive price even higher.

On a side note, however, I do agree with Steve.  I want to see prices start driving the renewable liquid fuels market to competitive levels.  We'll need to start building more nuclear plants for that infrastructure too, but that's a whole nother thread.


***Disclaimer***

This post is not in any way intended to be political in nature, nor should it be read or interepreted as such.  Any use or mention of the word "politics," "political" or any variations thereof shall not be interpreted as an endorsement for a political philosophy or the like.

By reading this disclaimer you have agreed to all of the above as well as to surrender any and all lottery and casino winings to the author of this post.

Sucker.

***End Disclaimer***


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## loafer89 (Apr 21, 2006)

I ran my car nearly to empty on the last of the "cheap" $2.69 gas that I got in Amesbury last sunday. I paid $3.05 yesterday in Deer Park.

I was curious at how gas in Rangeley last saturday was $3.10 while it was selling for $2.66 in Stratton.


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## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:
			
		

> I know what your saying but $6 would cost me over 1k a month in gas to operate my business.:blink:


c'mon, allskiing, get with the times!  you are supposed to pass those gas increases onto your customers!!  :lol: big time inflation, here we go!


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 21, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> c'mon, allskiing, get with the times!  you are supposed to pass those gas increases onto your customers!!  :lol: big time inflation, here we go!


Ha...this is how they would look at me:blink:  :smash:  after I told them that the price went up X amount of dollars. ;-)


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## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2006)

heheh, i hear you.  but we all better be getting used to it.  i am surprised everyone hasn't seen higher increases due to transportations costs yet.  i work in an industry that relies heavily on transportation, and i have seen some of the S&H cost increases this year... not pretty!!!  when the prices of products do not go up, either expenses go down or profits go down.  if the operation is already very efficient, it is usually profits


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## SilentCal (Apr 21, 2006)

I think you'll see $4 a gallon by the fourth of July.   The price always seems to jump around the middle of May.   It's time to get all that extra weight out of the trunk,  get new filters,  check tire pressure.  All the little things can add up to a lot.  

Somebody is lining their pockets all right!   It's such a shame that a lot of these increases will be passed on to the consumer,  that already has to deal with the price hikes in their own personal use vehicles.   Seems like a bad double-whammy to me.


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## loafer89 (Apr 21, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> heheh, i hear you. but we all better be getting used to it. i am surprised everyone hasn't seen higher increases due to transportations costs yet. i work in an industry that relies heavily on transportation, and i have seen some of the S&H cost increases this year... not pretty!!! when the prices of products do not go up, either expenses go down or profits go down. if the operation is already very efficient, it is usually profits


 
We ship with Roadway Express and UPS at my company and both companies are adding on fuel surcharges *big time*, which we have now started to pass on to our customers who are less than thrilled, but understand.


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## riverc0il (Apr 21, 2006)

> Somebody is lining their pockets all right! It's such a shame that a lot of these increases will be passed on to the consumer, that already has to deal with the price hikes in their own personal use vehicles. Seems like a bad double-whammy to me.


the american economy is driven by such things though.  my cynical view lines up pretty well with the way it all works, companies will only do good things when they can financially benefit.  fuel efficiency doesn't matter until it financially matters.  it also matters when customers stop buying product because the price gets too high after fuel charges get passed on.  smart consumers will stop buying products they don't truly need that receive massive fuel charge related price increases.  like wise, smart consumers will also seek out more fuel efficient vehicles which may actually lead ot a decrease in monthly fuel costs despite increased price per gallon if the fuel economy of the vehicle is a significant upgrade from the older vehicle.  a short sharp jump in price with cause smart people to think of new ideas and better ways of doing things.  inevitably, we were eventually be sorely pressed with higher prices, but that will lead to new inovation and ideas which will bring about new technologies to help price, people, and ideally the environment as well once it is financially profitable to do so.  when natural resources disappear, american capitolism works GREAT.  it is just short sighted and doesn't have the means to prepare for such issues and maybe even disasters a head of time.


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## skibum1321 (Apr 21, 2006)

This seems to be getting political if you ask me. I'm going to stay out of this one.


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 21, 2006)

I think people have done a great job staying on course in this thread!!


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 22, 2006)

As the price goes up the demand does go down, already happening. Never go to $4, our economy couldn't handle that. Who's fault is it.....alot of it falls on our shoulders, you and me. 
It's like bandwith, only so much can be pushed thru those pipes. Reduce consumption, stop feeding the beast.


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## riverc0il (Apr 22, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:
			
		

> I think people have done a great job staying on course in this thread!!


indeed.  economics and supply/demand issues and politics are completely unrelated.


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## catskills (Apr 22, 2006)

dmc said:
			
		

> We're pretty f'd...
> 
> We gotta figure out a way to get the countries that have oil to like us...


:flag: First we got to convince folks that having other countries like us is important. Then and only then America might have a snowballs chance in hell of electing a President that the rest of the world doesn't hate or fear.  I personally would like to see Republican Senator John McCain as the next president and a Democtratic controlled congress.    

Ifs funny that a few years back you hear a lot of Americans say I don't give a $%^# what other countries think of us.  Now Americans are paying $300 to $500 a month on gas with the reality that if those other Countries stop sending the United States oil we are in deep trouble.The realization that the United States is extremely dependent on the rest of the world is just now starting to sink in.


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## hammer (Apr 22, 2006)

Maybe if there were incentives for companies to allow employees to telecommute 1 day a week that would help.  I know that a significant amount of $$ I spend on gas is to drive 50 miles a day back and forth to work, and I don't think my commute is anywhere near as bad as it could be.

There are some companies that have people take alternating Fridays off...that's a start.

As far as hybrid cars are concerned, IMO the cost differential is still too great to justify buying one.  That will hopefully change in a few years, though.


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 22, 2006)

catskills said:
			
		

> :flag: First we got to convince folks that having other countries like us is important. Then and only then America might have a snowballs chance in hell of electing a President that the rest of the world doesn't hate or fear.  I personally would like to see Republican Senator John McCain as the next president and a Democtratic controlled congress.
> 
> .


Lets keep this on track catskills. We are talking about gas..no politics please.


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## riverc0il (Apr 22, 2006)

yea, i am with allskiing on that one.  catskills, you just made me a liar in my previous defense of how the thread was faring  :lol:


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## catskills (Apr 22, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:
			
		

> Lets keep this on track catskills. We are talking about gas..no politics please.


Sorry about that I crossed the line.  Difficult subject.  Hey DMC started it.  Just kidding.

BTW I just did a spread sheet on gas usage and MPG.  I was real surpised how much I am spending on gas per month on my wife's Nissan Xtera at 16MPG.   I figure the difference between 16 and 28 MPG is about $125 a month.


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## dmc (Apr 22, 2006)

catskills said:
			
		

> Sorry about that I crossed the line.  Difficult subject.  Hey DMC started it.  Just kidding.



I'm having  tough time chiming in on this...  Some forces I believe are out of our cotrol but others... ?!?!?!....  whatever... it is what it is....

BUT....

Right now my gas consumption is relatively low...

I work from home 2 days a week and stay in Stamford CT 3.  So really only have the "to and from to Stamford" one a week mileage..

I tend to drive fast coming home... I miss being in the Skillz...

Although I blew through a tank of gas on a rental last week in North Carolina...  Racing to meetings and stuff...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2006)

Drove 70mph to Stowe and 55-60 on the way home today to save gas.  Slowing down DOES make a difference.


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## YardSaleDad (Apr 22, 2006)

I doubt we will see prices dip much below $3.00 a gallon again.  We have almost zero control over global demand(China/India) and zilch on supply(not going there).  Demand will only increase and it is just a matter of how fast.  The supply of petroleum has peaked, and very shortly(24-36 months) we will see the decline begin.  There are no dinosaurs left to make any more.  That leaves us with a choice of what we switch to.  Do we go with the easy but messy(coal/nuclear) or the hard but clean (solar/wind/hydro/bio).  Either way, we will still have to practice conservation like our great grand parents used to.  It is just not logistically possible to replace the terrawatts of power we currently consume with any of the available options.

Tom 
Scion xB Owner
(30-40 MPG)


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## loafer89 (Apr 22, 2006)

There are three options that are available in North America for obtaining usable oil and gasoline besides the conventional oil wells:

1) Sand tar oil extraction, this is where oil and synthetic oil is removed from sand. Canada holds about 1.7 trillion barrels in Alberta. This is a horribly messy way to get at the petroleum and it takes two tons of sand to yield one barrel of oil. This process costs about $20-40 dollars a barrel to produce.

2) Oil shale, where the U.S has 1.0 - 1.2 trillion barrels of reserve, also a messy and expensive process where each barrel would cost about $40-50 dollars to produce.

3) Fischer-Tropsch process where coal is converted into synthetic petroleum products. This is how Germany got by through World War Two. This process is *exteremly expensive* and costs about $60-70 a barrel to produce. The U.S has 26% of the worlds coal reserves, so that supply could last for quite some time.


After the conventional oil reserves run out, these unconventional methods would be our last resort a sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel so to speak.


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## Marc (Apr 23, 2006)

YardSaleDad said:
			
		

> I doubt we will see prices dip much below $3.00 a gallon again.  We have almost zero control over global demand(China/India) and zilch on supply(not going there).  Demand will only increase and it is just a matter of how fast.  The supply of petroleum has peaked, and very shortly(24-36 months) we will see the decline begin.  There are no dinosaurs left to make any more.



I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this... obviously, we've always had a finite supply, so it technically "peaked" before we started consuming any of it.  If you meant, that the world's production output has peaked, well that would require knowing not only the history of crude oil production and exploration but also predicting not only the future political climate but the future of new exploration, technology and output capacity, which, from where I stand, is next to impossible.



			
				YardSaleDad said:
			
		

> That leaves us with a choice of what we switch to.  Do we go with the easy but messy(coal/nuclear) or the hard but clean (solar/wind/hydro/bio).  Either way, we will still have to practice conservation like our great grand parents used to.  It is just not logistically possible to replace the terrawatts of power we currently consume with any of the available options.
> 
> Tom
> Scion xB Owner
> (30-40 MPG)



Currently available options are limited, yes.  However, nuclear (fission) power is far, far less "messy" than coal is when all is said and done.  We don't build any new fission plants currently for safety concerns, which are at present, rediculous at best.

As for the others you mentioned, solar is still far to expensive, hydro power has too much environmental impact for widewpread use, and so far, too many of our environmentally minded citizens have found wind power too "ugly" for their tastes.

Within the next 60 years I predict the advent and widespread use of sustainable fusion reactions at which time will be able to produce as much electrical energy as we need.

It's also too bad that while you observe fuel consumption rates of 30-40 mpg with your xB, you would be seeing much more if Toyota had gone with a style more conducive to an efficient aerodynamic profile.  The drag coefficient is around 0.35 for the xB, I believe, which is the high end of passenger cars and approaching the range of the quite large SUV's.

The point of that rant being, while everyone else worries about this sort of issue, and therefore all feel better by thinking of solutions that can be enacted proactively (read: forcing them upon other people) I place far more faith in free market economics (without getting politcal).

The economy as a whole will suffer with increasing scarcity of crude, yes, but at a point where alternatives become economically feasible, consumers will seek out what is cheaper and entrepreneurs will see opportunity for weatlh produciton.

The more we try to proactively change undesirable price in supply/demand chains, the more imbalance and resulting problems we create.


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## riverc0il (Apr 23, 2006)

> The point of that rant being, while everyone else worries about this sort of issue, and therefore all feel better by thinking of solutions that can be enacted proactively (read: forcing them upon other people) I place far more faith in free market economics (without getting politcal).
> 
> The economy as a whole will suffer with increasing scarcity of crude, yes, but at a point where alternatives become economically feasible, consumers will seek out what is cheaper and entrepreneurs will see opportunity for weatlh produciton.


precisely.  though i disagree that we should not be proactive.  free market economics relies on businesses investing in proactive R&D to create solutions to what the market sees as problems.  this is part of the reason i look forward to increased gas prices despite concern for my pocket book, it will spur viable and cost efficient alternatives into wide spread use.

also good point in reference to the xB.  30-40 MPG is standard for fuel efficient compart vehicles these days.  we need to be looking towards 40-50 as a standard for a very fuel efficient gas powered car now and higher for the hybrids.  no one has any right to complain about gas at the pump, there are alternatives.


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## loafer89 (Apr 23, 2006)

I view higher oil prices in the short term as leading to the increased destruction of the enviornment using the three methods of finding unconventional oil that I described earlier.
The world is an oil junkie, and getting us off the habit will be a long drawn out process. Hydrogen is a good alternative fuel source, the only problem with it is that with the current technology, more pollution is caused in the process of producing the hydrogen, than is saved by using it in the first place.

Solar energy could be used to produce the power/energy needed to make hydrogen, but the current battery storage systems are still not capable of storing the energy from solar panels when it is needed later on in the future.

I have read that research has produced very thin solar cells, that could be applied like paint to the roof tops of buildings, and be used to provide energy for electricity, heating and cooling.


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## YardSaleDad (Apr 23, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this... obviously, we've always had a finite supply, so it technically "peaked" before we started consuming any of it.  If you meant, that the world's production output has peaked, well that would require knowing not only the history of crude oil production and exploration but also predicting not only the future political climate but the future of new exploration, technology and output capacity, which, from where I stand, is next to impossible.



For the US oil industry that was about 1970.  This was predicted in the 1950s by a [SIZE=-1] geophysicist[/SIZE] named [SIZE=-1]Dr. Hubbert.  [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]It's not impossible.  It's relatively simple math.  No calculus required. We are currently at the global oil production peak, give or take a year or two.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak

[/SIZE]





			
				Marc said:
			
		

> Currently available options are limited, yes.  However, nuclear (fission) power is far, far less "messy" than coal is when all is said and done.  We don't build any new fission plants currently for safety concerns, which are at present, rediculous at best.



I disagree with those statements.  Ramping up nuclear production production to levels required to replace petroleum would require an order of magnitude increase in the number of nuclear plants, even if there was enough fuel(Uranium is limited too). The waste stream would be significant, even if we resume breeder reactors.  That is assuming that we can operate that many plants indefinitely without accidental discharges or another chernobyl.  Yes I know it was an old, unsafe plant, with inadequate safety measures, but we are only human and accidents will happen.



			
				Marc said:
			
		

> As for the others you mentioned, solar is still far to expensive, hydro power has too much environmental impact for widewpread use, and so far, too many of our environmentally minded citizens have found wind power too "ugly" for their tastes.


I was hasty in making it an either or choice.  I believe that we will see all the above technologies implemented, including nuclear.  The decisions will be in the proportions we choose for each.  Market forces will obviously play a role.  The key point I was making is that, none of them will be able to completely bridge the gap of declining petroleum production.  Conservation will not be a choice.  It is inevitable.



			
				Marc said:
			
		

> Within the next 60 years I predict the advent and widespread use of sustainable fusion reactions at which time will be able to produce as much electrical energy as we need.



I find that overly optomistic given the current state of fusion research and the miserly government funding.  We currently have all our eggs in the deuterium basket and have actively suppressed investigations into the other fusion reactions like He3<->He3 which has the potential to provide the energy production Nirvana you describe.



			
				Marc said:
			
		

> It's also too bad that while you observe fuel consumption rates of 30-40 mpg with your xB, you would be seeing much more if Toyota had gone with a style more conducive to an efficient aerodynamic profile.



While economy was an important factor in my purchase, it was not the only one.  When my xB is a gas hog compared to the other cars on the road we can discuss drag.  For now, I will continue to use it to haul stuff, like a dozen 2"x10"x8' planks of lumber inside with the doors all closed. Try that in a honda civic.:wink:



			
				Marc said:
			
		

> The more we try to proactively change undesirable price in supply/demand chains, the more imbalance and resulting problems we create.



The only problem is that costs factor are ommited. I really would like my grandkids to live in a world that has glaciers. We are running a science experiment on the earth with no idea what the outcome is going to be.The past century has shown the benefits of being proactive in protecting the environment.  It has also show the huge costs of being short sighted.  The coming energy crunch will highlight costs that have been hidden by cheap energy in the sprawl of a disposable nation.


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## Marc (Apr 23, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> precisely.  though i disagree that we should not be proactive.  free market economics relies on businesses investing in proactive R&D to create solutions to what the market sees as problems.  this is part of the reason i look forward to increased gas prices despite concern for my pocket book, it will spur viable and cost efficient alternatives into wide spread use.



Good call, Steve, instead of saying this:

"and therefore all feel better by thinking of solutions that can be enacted proactively"

I should've wrote this:

"and therefore all feel better by thinking of *policies* that can be enacted proactively"

I am very much for private R&D and it's role in free market economies.  In that we should be as proactive as possible.  The company I work for, FM Global, couldn't exist as it does today without it.  As a matter of fact, I work at the largest enclosed fire test and research center in the world.

A strong R&D arm of a company has historically made the difference between fairly successful corporations and the truly great ones such as Motorolla, IBM, FM, etc.


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## riverc0il (Apr 23, 2006)

i think there is room for policies to be proactive as well.  economics are fairly reactive in that solutions are not developed unless there is demand.  even if there is demand (there currently is for fuel efficient vehicles), if there is no market (cost is currently too high) then the technology does not become wide spread.  honda had a car 10 years ago that could get 50 MPG and no one batted an eye.  any ways, point is that sometimes proactive policies help when the market isn't being influenced by current short term needs.  energy and environmental issues and fuel are quickly becoming long term issues, else we will have a repeat of the environmental issues following the industrial revolution on a MUCH larger and grader scale.  a 100% complete reliance on the market puts too much faith that individuals and companies would do the right thing when properly motivated.  long term sustainability is going to require doing the right thing before it is too late, before the motivating factors have laid themselves out.  tax incentives could help get the ball rolling, and i am the first to get in line against corporate welfare, but this is a rather special and important issue in our times.


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## YardSaleDad (Apr 23, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> A strong R&D arm of a company has historically made the difference between fairly successful corporations and the truly great ones such as Motorolla, IBM, FM, etc.



A convincing arguement can be made for just the opposite.

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2005/10/does_rd_spendin.html

It's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it


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## skibum1321 (Apr 24, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> indeed.  economics and supply/demand issues and politics are completely unrelated.


I don't think that's true at all - there are so many intertwined factors here that it is often difficult to seperate them.



			
				riverc0il said:
			
		

> no one has any right to complain about gas at the pump, there are alternatives.


What exactly are the alternatives at this time? I don't know of any production cars that don't use gas. Even if you have a hybrid car, it runs on gas. Although fuel efficient cars require less gas, you are still dependent on it.

I would love to see wind power take off, although everyone seems to have the NIMBY complex about wind. For some reason, they would rather have an ugly oil rig or coal powerplant in their backyard than an aesthetically pleasing (IMHO) wind mill. Case in point - Cape Cod.


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 24, 2006)

People in my area seem to be using solar power more and more. I would like to see all new houses be required to have part of there roof be solar. That would make a huge difference with all the new buliding that is going on. I have seen a savings of $150 a month in some houses.


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## riverc0il (Apr 24, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> I don't think that's true at all - there are so many intertwined factors here that it is often difficult to seperate them.
> 
> What exactly are the alternatives at this time? I don't know of any production cars that don't use gas. Even if you have a hybrid car, it runs on gas. Although fuel efficient cars require less gas, you are still dependent on it.


the fact is the american styled capitolist system is going to go marching on regardless of what politics are currently occuring.  there is the issue of subsidies, tax breaks, corporate welfare, rules & regulations, etc. and other such devices that tamper with pure unabridged free market (justifiably so, i might add), but regardless, the economic system goes marching on.  it is perhaps the one single thing in america i believe is least likely to change in my life time.

yes, hybrid cars are indeed alternatives.  since you use less gas, you pay less at the pump.  i have no idea what the MPG is on hybrids, but it must be at least double your standard 4 door sedan?  you would save at least 50% at the pump.  nothing :angry: :angry: :angry: me more than people driving cars that get less than 25 MPG complaining about gas prices.  a gallon of gas is still cheaper than a gallon of milk.  it is about time we woke up and realized we are only beginning to pay for what the true value of fuel really is.  if we want to continue paying the same price we currently are paying or less, we need to adjust our spending habits, driving habits, seek alternatives (bike, walk, car pool, public transit, etc.), and look into high MPG cars.  you can get non-hybrid vehicles that get 40 MPG.  why aren't people doing this?  because it is easier to b**** than take personal responsibility for our decisions.

/rant


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## salida (Apr 24, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> because it is easier to b**** than take personal responsibility for our decisions.



I couldn't agree more, people will complain about anything.  The last person they look at is themselves when they dont like something.


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## loafer89 (Apr 24, 2006)

Four of my neighbors have Hummers, three have Escalades, lots of personal responsibility on their part:-? :roll: :dunce: .

I cannot even imagine how much money they spend for gasoline each week.


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## ckofer (Apr 24, 2006)

It's too bad we don't find more ways to recover some of our energy. For instance, the energy used in refrigeration/air-conditioning and clothes drying usually becomes wasted heat that could be used to warm water.


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 24, 2006)

I guess I have a diferent take on this whole gas price thing. We are going thru a very exciting time in regards to alternative sources.

In the western US there are now enough wind farms, mostly in Californis producing enough energy for it to be put in the western grid. Aspen Ski Corp, for example, went totally wind produced energy a few months ago and there isn't a wind turbine for hundreds of miles. They are willing to pay alittle more for their energy to become part of the solution.

Wind farms are being proposed all over the US, several right here in NE. Sure, they face an uphill battle but as Steve pointed out, higher energy prices will maybe help grease the wheels of change.

Everyone talks about the increasing demand for oil from China but you don't hear much about the efforts of Chinese companies like Sun Tech who are growing so fast they are becoming world leaders in the production of photovoltaic solar cells (PV cells) and solar electric systems. Royal Dutch Shell is already a world leader in this business.

I also chuckle about all this talk about the huge profits being racked up by the oil companies. At the pump they have an incredibly small profit margin, 7-10 cents per gallon. The profits are huge cause the companies are huge. The refineries are ones making out like bandits.The profit margins for companies producing bottled water is 200%, now that's disgusting.

The factors that have caused this problem have been an accident waiting to happen. I am hoping that the saying, "no pain, no gain" holds up for this situation. I have great hope for alternative energy in the years to come. Just wish it would move alittle faster.


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## ckofer (Apr 25, 2006)

I suppose we could look at our own conduct as skiers. How many huge SUV's show up on the mountain with only two people in them?


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## riverc0il (Apr 25, 2006)

> I also chuckle about all this talk about the huge profits being racked up by the oil companies. At the pump they have an incredibly small profit margin, 7-10 cents per gallon. The profits are huge cause the companies are huge. The refineries are ones making out like bandits.The profit margins for companies producing bottled water is 200%, now that's disgusting.


Word! People are quick to point out the CEO of one of the big gas companies is making millions upon millions a year, but what CEO isn't? The problem isn't the gas companies themselves, the problem is CEO culture in the United States! I suspect the reason why gas companies had such a big year is they probably make the same percentage margin regardless of cost. So if prices are increased, even though their percentage margin is unchanged, their profits go up! Works that way in many businesses, when cost increases so do profits since profit is based on a standard percentage margin off the cost. Gas companies do benefit from increasing costs, but usage goes down as gas prices rise. Obviously not quite enough since we have a problem! This is indeed an exciting time for alternative sources, but I think we need to be smart about how we pursue our future energy needs and not jump into anything. That means we are going to need a few years of transitioning thought and behavior during which prices are going to keep going up.  Way up.


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 25, 2006)

ckofer said:
			
		

> It's too bad we don't find more ways to recover some of our energy. For instance, the energy used in refrigeration/air-conditioning and clothes drying usually becomes wasted heat that could be used to warm water.


I found a vent that redirected the heat from when I am drying clothes. Problem was it is a moist heat and even though the screen was very fine it still created a good amount of dust. But it did heat my basement while drying.


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## skibum1321 (Apr 25, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> the fact is the american styled capitolist system is going to go marching on regardless of what politics are currently occuring.  there is the issue of subsidies, tax breaks, corporate welfare, rules & regulations, etc. and other such devices that tamper with pure unabridged free market (justifiably so, i might add), but regardless, the economic system goes marching on.  it is perhaps the one single thing in america i believe is least likely to change in my life time.
> 
> yes, hybrid cars are indeed alternatives.  since you use less gas, you pay less at the pump.  i have no idea what the MPG is on hybrids, but it must be at least double your standard 4 door sedan?  you would save at least 50% at the pump.  nothing :angry: :angry: :angry: me more than people driving cars that get less than 25 MPG complaining about gas prices.  a gallon of gas is still cheaper than a gallon of milk.  it is about time we woke up and realized we are only beginning to pay for what the true value of fuel really is.  if we want to continue paying the same price we currently are paying or less, we need to adjust our spending habits, driving habits, seek alternatives (bike, walk, car pool, public transit, etc.), and look into high MPG cars.  you can get non-hybrid vehicles that get 40 MPG.  why aren't people doing this?  because it is easier to b**** than take personal responsibility for our decisions.
> 
> /rant


I absolutely agree that we need to look for alternatives and hybrids are the best we have right now. They are not the answer though. What do we do with all of these dead, toxic batteries that last only a little over 100,000 miles? We need to look for ways to run cars without gas at all. That is the only true alternative. By using the word alternative, you are implying that we would not be reliant on gas at all. While hybrids allow us to be less reliant, we still need gas to run the cars. And I agree that bikes are a viable alternative, but only for very short distances and if you don't need to carry more than will fit in a backpack. Unfortunately this is not usually the case so that doesn't really work for a large percentage of the time. Even if it did work, the culture in this country is such that people are too lazy to walk or ride their bikes if they only need to go a couple of miles.


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## ctenidae (Apr 25, 2006)

Biodeisel's booming, too. There's a soybean refinery opening in my hometown in Arkansas this month, and another one about 100 miles west (that one's being operated by Eastman Kodak, of all companies). Good thing, too, since the Gov't cutting farm subsidies for soybeans this year. Hopefully the increase in demand will help boost proces. They're losing 100 farmers this spring in Arkansas County without the subsidy. Not a good thing.

But back to energy- wind energy is great, if you can get past the NIMBYs. Florida Power and Light is investing heavily in wind, but if they get creamed in MAryland like it looks like they will, it could set them back pretty far. As for solar, the money needed to fund PV research just isn't there- investors are hesitant because the technology is at sort of a breakpoint- the next leap in efficiency is going to be huge, but expensive to do, and there isn't any government funding for it.


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## ctenidae (Apr 25, 2006)

By the way, gas in Venezuela is 14 cents a gallon.


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## ckofer (Apr 25, 2006)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> By the way, gas in Venezuela is 14 cents a gallon.


 
Do you think it's worth the drive?


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## dmc (Apr 26, 2006)

ckofer said:
			
		

> Do you think it's worth the drive?



Could you pick me up a little something wile your there?


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## Marc (Apr 27, 2006)

Ah hell, the three days I have work to do and no one thought to stop the debate in my absence?


That's it, neg. rep. points all around, fuggers.


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## skibum1321 (Apr 27, 2006)

Apparently in your absence you didn't realize that rep points are also gone now.


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## bvibert (Apr 27, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Ah hell, the three days I have work to do and no one thought to stop the debate in my absence?
> 
> 
> That's it, neg. rep. points all around, fuggers.


We figured you just didn't have anything to say for 3 days... :roll:


 :lol: :lol:


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## skibum1321 (Apr 27, 2006)

Interesting article in the Globe today about the Cape Wind project:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/27/kennedy_faces_fight_on_cape_wind/


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## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Interesting article in the Globe today about the Cape Wind project:
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/27/kennedy_faces_fight_on_cape_wind/



:roll:  And he was just on NPR talking about how important alternative energy sources is.  "Just not in his backyard" I guess.  Hypocritical.  

Not going any further....no politics.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Ah hell, the three days I have work to do and no one thought to stop the debate in my absence?
> 
> 
> That's it, neg. rep. points all around, fuggers.



Yep, we took all of your away because you had not been here.  :wink:  :lol: :lol:


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## JimG. (Apr 28, 2006)

bvibert said:
			
		

> We figured you just didn't have anything to say for 3 days... :roll:
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol:



I figured he wasn't allowed to say anything and he just exploded.


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