# Lowering the Drinking Age??



## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2005)

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=2857747&nav=4QcRVbnU

A Vermont Legislator is proposing that the current drinking age be lowered from 21 to 18.  What do you think?  

While I think it "philosophically" may work, in reality the problems it aims to solve (binge drinking) will still exist.  Already kids start drinking at 15-18 yrs of age, so if it were legal at 18, then that "starting age" would probably go lower, causing more public health problems.  

I also think it will put more impaired drivers on the road which will cause more deaths.  

So for these and many other reasons, I vote "nay."   :wink: 

Your thoughts?


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## hammer (Jan 27, 2005)

What *thetrailboss* said...   

Actually, it would be interesting to see inputs on how old each of the people who vote "yes" are.  As a person who's been "legal" for 20 years, I'm well past the fascination with alcohol/partying that I had in my college days.  :wink:


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## Vortex (Jan 27, 2005)

I grew up in vermont when the drinking age was 18.  I think i might have been the last year. 
 Booze was in high school big time.  I think its a hard argument.  Don't they sell beer to all service people on base no matter what the age is? I thought my ROTC college room mate told me that.  At least that way if they are forced to fight or serve the country they get most of the liberties of  age citizens get. The biggest issue was 18-20 year olds driving to Vermont  from surrounding states to buy beer and drink in the Bars.
  It helped promote drinking and driving.  As a 18 year old I wanted to drink as a parent I like the age at 21.  I don't have the right answer just more questions.


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## hammer (Jan 27, 2005)

Bob R said:
			
		

> The biggest issue was 18-20 year olds driving to Vermont to buy beer and drink in the Bars.  It helped promote drinking and driving.


I remember many years ago that there were similar problems with people going from PA to NJ and back because of the drinking age difference.  Maybe that's in part why the feds got involved with tying in highway funding to the drinking age.


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## Stephen (Jan 27, 2005)

In weighing benefits vs. risks, this is a no-brainer. 

Instead I think they should allow parents to offer some amount of alcohol to 18-21 year olds with restrictions, ie. no driving, must be at home, 2 drink limit,  or some BAC limit, must be with parent, and cannot distribute to non-family members. To me this would promote safe drinking habits as well as "demystify" the culture.

-Stephen


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## Talisman (Jan 27, 2005)

I was in High School in the early '70's in MA when the drinking age was lowered to 18.  Yeehaw, party time.  It wasn't unusual to go to bar and see half my class mates drinking when I was 15.  Hang overs in study hall, eat lunch in a bar and many happy hours in the afternoon.  Lots of car crash carnage I seem to recall.  It was fun when I was young, but the low drinking age was a bad idea when IDs were easy to fake.  CT drivers licenses did not even have pictures until 77 or 78

VT has the issue with kids going to Quebec to drink where the drinking age is 18 or 19.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> In weighing benefits vs. risks, this is a no-brainer.
> 
> Instead I think they should allow parents to offer some amount of alcohol to 18-21 year olds with restrictions, ie. no driving, must be at home, 2 drink limit,  or some BAC limit, must be with parent, and cannot distribute to non-family members. To me this would promote safe drinking habits as well as "demystify" the culture.
> 
> -Stephen



I can't think of any way to enforce this policy though.  

As for ID's, my first Vermont License in the late 1990's had NO PICTURE and it could have been easily duplicated/altered!  They handed those out until 2000 or so!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2005)

Talisman said:
			
		

> VT has the issue with kids going to Quebec to drink where the drinking age is 18 or 19.



It has not been as bad lately...especially with tighter Border checks.  There was that bad crash just south of Newport in 1998 which killed 4 teens.  Bad deal.    

The family did try to sue the state because of the Beaver Dam that existed well off of I-91 that created the pond which the victims drowned in, which is just ridiculous  :x

So who voted for the "shut up and give me a drink?" choice?   :wink:


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## SilentCal (Jan 27, 2005)

Drinking and Driving is going to happen and there no hardcore evidence that it's always the young that are out there cracking up their cars.    A good friend on mine just his car wrecked by a 37 year old woman.   

If you want booze and you are underage,  trust me you will find a way to get your hands on it.  We have a 20 year old daughter and she has a fake ID to get herself what she wants.  Do I have a problem with this.  No,  If your old enough to vote, get drafted, and get married then I think you can make an educated decision about booze.   It's the idiots that get trashed and hurt someone that ruin the party for everyone.   Tying Highway funds to the drinking age is such an dumb idea.   Imagine this could happen
1.  you get married at 20 and get busted on your wedding night because you have champagne to toast the night.
2.   You are 19 coming home on a six week leave from Iraq and you can watch buddies dying next to you but can get arrested for trying to buy a six pack.
3.   Your 18 and you voted for Bush or Kerry and the other guy won.    Don't you deserve a beer.

Sometimes laws are just a little whacked


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## hammer (Jan 27, 2005)

SilentCal said:
			
		

> 3.   Your 18 and you voted for Bush or Kerry and the other guy won.    Don't you deserve a beer.


Where can you vote for "Bush or Kerry" and have the other guy win?  In Florida?  :blink: 

Sorry...couldn't resist.


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## Stephen (Jan 27, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> SilentCal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, in Ukraine.


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## riverc0il (Jan 27, 2005)

ideally, 18 should be the age for becoming an adult and being free of all restirctions society places on minors.  unfortunately, ideals are not always best practiced within the confines of our current social setup.  the adolescent years are being stretched out more and more lately and prolonging that "adult but not quite adult" stage for many youths.  with that delayed onset of real adulthood comes a delay of real responsibility and more of an edge to party hard.  i was there, thank goodness i lived on a college campus six years ago.  could get smashed in a dorm room and didn't have to drive, it was safe.  the drinking age places restictions and minimizes many issues that could be more dangerous with easier access.

not that people over 21 don't do stupid things.  it happens ALL the time.  i know when i'm driving home from a club in boston that the statistic is 50% of the people driving are legally drunk.  but a smaller percentage of those people over the age of 21 are involved in such risky behaviors than would be a lower age.  in an ideal society, no problem.  there is no problem over in europe for example in which they have ideal conditions for drinking at nearly any age.  but there's such a big to do in the states regarding likker that restrictions need to be placed on it's consumption.

then again, it could very well be argued that the restrictions are the cause of the likker problems in the first place.  what came first?  discuss


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## Max (Jan 28, 2005)

I don't think age has much to do with alcohol and stupidity.  Maybe the question should be "Do you favor raising the minimum drinking age to 97?"


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## Charlie Schuessler (Jan 28, 2005)

Reading the DWI convictions in the newspaper reveals that most convictions are people over the age of 25...many of which are in their 30's & 40's...

Leaving the age limit at 21 makes it more difficult for young adults (using the tobacco industry euphemism for under-aged persons) to obtain alcohol products.

However I'm not against 18-21 year old persons from enjoying a drink(s) in a controlled environment such as a family event in the privacy of a homestead...


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## smitty77 (Jan 31, 2005)

Max said:
			
		

> I don't think age has much to do with alcohol and stupidity."


I agree.  The irresponsible behavior is still there three years later at the age of 21.  As riverc0il mentioned, go to a night club and watch how many people get behind the wheel totally shitfaced.  They know the consequences, yet just don't care.

The argument about "restricting access" to minors is bogus.  If you want it, you can get it, and you don't have to jump through hoops to do it.  The were many kids in high school (10 or 11 years ago) that drank heavily at parties on a weekly basis.  A small group of students referenced a party dubbed Booza-Palooza in their yearbook entries, which are usually submitted the beginning of the senior year.  The drinking problem with minors is very real yet everyone ignores it, hoping it will go away.


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## HardyMachia (Mar 5, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=2857747&nav=4QcRVbnU
> A Vermont Legislator is proposing that the current drinking age be lowered from 21 to 18.  What do you think?



Definitely. Lower it to 18 - we wouldn't discriminate against minorities for purchasing alcohol, and we should not discriminate against 18-,19-,and 20-year-old adults. You are considered responsible enough to drive a tank in Iraq, but not have a champagne toast at your own wedding?

But, lowering the drinking age to 18 is not enough. We must allow parents to teach their teenagers responsible and moderate alcohol consumption in restaurants and pubs. They have far fewer problems in countries like Germany, France, and Itaty. Currently, parents in Vermont face up to two years in jail and a $2000 fine.



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> While I think it "philosophically" may work, in reality the problems it aims to solve (binge drinking) will still exist.  Already kids start drinking at 15-18 yrs of age, so if it were legal at 18, then that "starting age" would probably go lower, causing more public health problems.



Look at the statistics and surveys from the 1950s to present. Teenagers (13,14,15) continue to drink at the same rates as they have always done. They start to experiment with what they see adults doing. Adults drink, so teenagers start drinking. We can't change that no matter if the drinking age is 18, 21, or completely prohibited (1920s). What we can affect is how teenagers treat alcohol. Do we want them unsupervised in the woods drinking cheap booze, or do we teach them to respect alcohol and drink in moderation.

The greatest affect on teenage drinking is the amount of adult drinking. As adults drink less, teens drink less, as adults drink more, teens drink more. It isn't a problem with the amount people drink. In France they'll have a couple drinks a night. Science has shown that a glass of wine a day has health benefits (as well as dark chocolate (yumm).



			
				thetrailboss said:
			
		

> I also think it will put more impaired drivers on the road which will cause more deaths.
> 
> So for these and many other reasons, I vote "nay."   :wink:
> 
> Your thoughts?



Teens are already drinking. Changing the legal drinking age will not dramatically increase the number of teenage drinkers.

As far as statistics and Vermont goes, lowering the drinking age might cause 0.5 more deaths per year. This is assuming that conditions where exactly the same as 1984/86, and they aren't. Cars are safer, DUI less socially acceptable (<-- this is one of the biggest factors)

If you want to help lower the drinking age in Vermont, then join the Vermont Chatper of the National Youth Rights Association - We oppose laws based on age discrimination. There is a petition here to: http://vt.youthrights.org

Hardy Machia
http://vt.youthrights.org


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## BeanoNYC (Mar 6, 2005)

I honestly don't know!  I see it works well in Europe.  I spend a lot of time visiting my wife's family in Norway and it's 18 for Beer/Wine, 21 for liquor.  As a High School Teacher I know the kids drink way before 21 anyway and cringe.  It is something that needs to be put into practice before we can see the inplications.


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## lotr (Mar 8, 2005)

:angry: That is so dumb!  You can get married, but what will you drink as u link arms with yur bride/groom???  Sprite??  oh yeah, i want to remember drinking SPRITE at my wedding, if i get married at 18, 19, or 20! :beer: Cheers baby!


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## madman (Mar 9, 2005)

I grew up when the drinking age was 18 I wish I had the money and time I wasted drinking between 18 + 21. As a parent + grown up partier [ you probably wouldnt beleve my stories!]I see nothing wrong with waiting till 21. Of course you will party whenever you can but to be given free rein is not so great. I lost one good friend , another lost a leg  ,another is in a wheel chair.all between 18 + 21. My son is 24 and I never stopped him from having a drink at home [18 -21 ] however once he drank he stayed home. He is very responsable and learned how to handle himself. Also LOTR dont be in any rush to get married SKI< HIKE <TRAVEL <HAVE FUN you only go round once in life MAKE THE MOST OF IT :beer:


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## cbcbd (Mar 9, 2005)

After 18 many teens will be going off to college, where they will be drinking whether it is allowed or not. There are plenty of ways of getting around that in college (fake ids, older friends who go on booze runs, that party down the hall, frat parties). 

It is just a waste of time to try to stop kids from drinking at that age if they really want to.

IMO, if you're going to binge drink and get your alcohol fix, might as well do it while you're in college and most times can just stumble back to your dorm.


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## ctenidae (Mar 9, 2005)

21 was an entirely arbitrary age to pick, motivated in no small way, I'm sure, by various conservative and religious groups. It's true that it's not enought o just lower the age. Alcohol also has to be demystified. Europe doesn't have so much of a problem mostly because it's not perceived as a problem. The US really needs to relax a bit, and not keep going back to our Puritanical roots (Remember, America wasn't the Pilgrim's first choice- they got booted out of everywhere else they landed, 9 times, I think. Even The Netherlands kicked them out for being too uptight).
I don't have the stats, but I'd be willing to bet the rates of binge-drinking, abuse, DUI, and whatever else, is about the same for almost any three-year age bracket as it is for 18-21.
Lower the age, and quit making out like having a beer will lead to the total ruination of your life. Besides, just think of the extra tax dollars those extra three years will generate.


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## HardyMachia (Mar 17, 2005)

lotr said:
			
		

> :angry: That is so dumb!  You can get married, but what will you drink as u link arms with yur bride/groom???  Sprite??  oh yeah, i want to remember drinking SPRITE at my wedding, if i get married at 18, 19, or 20! :beer: Cheers baby!



Who said anything about getting bombed at your wedding? Every wedding I've been to there is a toast to the bride and groom. 

The point about getting married is that society acknowledges that you have the responsibility to go off buy a house, support your spouse, raise your kids,...

Hardy


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## HardyMachia (Mar 17, 2005)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> I don't have the stats, but I'd be willing to bet the rates of binge-drinking, abuse, DUI, and whatever else, is about the same for almost any three-year age bracket as it is for 18-21.



I have looked into the stats, and there is a difference between many age groups. But, if we are going to look at stats to see which group is the most dangerous and pass laws based on the statistics then let's do that instead of picking on teen agers or young adults.

The stats say adult males between the ages of 21 and 35 are the most likely to DUI. If the DUI people are really out to stop DUI then they should pass a law that says males between the ages of 21 and 35 can't drink alcohol or a law that says 21-35-year-old males can't drive. Females are 9 times less likely to DUI a than males in the same age group.

Binge drinking increased among 18-20-year-olds in the mid-80s after they passed the national minimum drinking age blackmail of highway funds law. Binge drinking reduced among 21-year-olds. Why? Because it was now illegal for the 18-20-year-olds so they had to binge before going out or binge so they wouldn't get caught. This is part of the problem with the puritainical Amercian system of alcohol policy. We need to adopt the model used by the rest of the world which doesn't treat alcohol as the devil's brew and treats it with respect and moderation.



			
				ctenidae said:
			
		

> Lower the age, and quit making out like having a beer will lead to the total ruination of your life. Besides, just think of the extra tax dollars those extra three years will generate.



I don't think we'd see many extra tax dollars. Teens and young adults from 13-20 are already buying the alcohol or stealing it. I don't see the tax revenue here increasing. They will be a tax savings because the police and court system won't be wasting their time crashing underage gathering.

Hardy Machia
http://vt.youthrights.org/


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## ctenidae (Mar 17, 2005)

_Females are 9 times less likely to DUI a than males in the same age group. _

That's just because chicks can't hold their liquor, and have to have guys drive them home.
/ducks

You're right, though, HardyMarchia. Interesting observation on the tax dollar savings vs increase.
It boils down to an image thing- if it weren't rebellious to drink underage, then it wouldn't be so "cool". There's also the issue of responsibility, something we don't like to take in this country.


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## Jaime86 (Apr 18, 2005)

I am 18 years old and a full-time college student and I am furious with the thought of lowering the legal drinking age.  Not only will it bring more drinking period, but more accidents and fatalities.  I go to class everyday and there is ATLEAST 2-3 underage students with hangovers from the night before.  THIS IS SICKENING AND NEEDS TO STOP!  Campus police don't do anything about it so it continues! What is going on with people these days?  Where have all our morals gone?


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## ctenidae (Apr 18, 2005)

That's not a question of legality, that's a problem with responsibility. Drink responsibly- it can be done.


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## dmc (Apr 18, 2005)

Jaime86 said:
			
		

> I am 18 years old and a full-time college student and I am furious with the thought of lowering the legal drinking age.  Not only will it bring more drinking period, but more accidents and fatalities.  I go to class everyday and there is ATLEAST 2-3 underage students with hangovers from the night before.  THIS IS SICKENING AND NEEDS TO STOP!  Campus police don't do anything about it so it continues! What is going on with people these days?  Where have all our morals gone?



So - want me to pick you up some brews? 

WTF?!?!?! You need to get out more kid... Loosen up...  Relax - enjoy...
When I went to College a lot more the 2-3 students had hangovers...  And they all turned out fine...


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## Jaytrek57 (Apr 19, 2005)

I believe God wants the drinking age to be lowered. :wink: 

I also believe the drinking age for the Kool-Aid should be thoroughly investigated. :wink:  :wink: 



> don't think we'd see many extra tax dollars. Teens and young adults from 13-20 are already buying the alcohol or stealing it.



Of course there will be extra taxes/revenue generated...and my guess would be a pretty significant one...at least to start.

Millions of 18-21 year olds would have access to bars/clubs and restuarants...which previously, in some cases, could not even let them in the door.

I need a drink. :beer:


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## Jaime86 (Apr 20, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> WTF?!?!?! You need to get out more kid... Loosen up...  Relax - enjoy...



Loosen up...relax?  How is that possible when people all around me are dying from alcohol poisoning and accidents that are alcohol related?


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## ctenidae (Apr 20, 2005)

Thinning the herd, Jaime, to put it bluntly, sarcasticly, and probably offensively. You should pay more attention to your signature line, I think.

/Not flaming you, or trying to stir anything up. Just saying.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2005)

OK, here is why I'm opposed to this legislation (on the VT level that is):


1.  Vermont already has dangerous roads and bad weather conditions that make driving hazardous at many different times.  It also is a rural state, so driving is a necessity.  To put more young, inexperienced, sometimes immature, and impaired drivers on the road is ludicrous. 

2.  Being a small state, the financial burden is huge.  VT would lose $10 million in federal highway funds and auto insurance premiums would sky rocket (as if they needed another reason to increase insurance rates  :roll: ).  We're talking about more tax burden and increased costs for Vermonters, many of which are already overburdened.   :x 

3.  The influx of out of state minors to drink from MA, NH, NY, and probably even as far away as CT/RI would cause more incidents of impaired driving not just in VT but around New England.  This would open up VT establishments to "dram shop" liability issues again pushing up insurance costs...

Underage is already a problem but to simply push the legal age down is not the solution.  Already many begin drinking between the ages of 16-18 years of age.  If we extrapolate this age difference to what the ages would be if the drinking age was 18, then kids would be starting to drink at the young age of 13.  Is this really what we want?   :-?   

While the opposition states some good philosphical points, I still have to disagree with their assertion that lowering the drinking age is the right thing to do.


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## Mike P. (Apr 20, 2005)

It amazes me the age of people  who get caught for DUI, many in their 30's - 50's.  Personally besides the responsibility, I don't want the headache having more than a couple of beers gives me, the nights I hae more than a glass or two of wine at a meal out, I'm in a hotel somewhere (or Hiker's Paradise with a few Tuckerman's :beer:   )

Boy the drinking & driving my brothers & I did, it's surprising 5 boys made it out of the teens, (heck over all over 35) I'm convinced what goes around comes around so the heavy lecturer at my kids is going to come early & often but with the biggest message of not driving drunk or getting in the car or someone else, no questions asked, call home for a ride or stay put, even if you call for the ride &  & say Canwejw ewess druwwve em homeyw daddad?  I used their good luck

Personally, drinking was more fun when I was underaged, the thrill of doing something wrong, being a rebel as a 15 year old, seeing the good looking cool girls going to the same woods my friend & I had just come out of, etc...  

On another note I recently observed, all the cool kids from High School, do manual labor or at best middle management jobs, the nerds & geeks are running corporate america, political america & earn the most money now, being cool cost $$$$


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

Tax Money
---------

Avoiding the federal extortion of highway funds can be avoided either with the Parental Option or the Lawful Option. http://freevermont.org/issues/TwoOptionsAvoidLossFedFunds.html

Next, compare the United States to Canada or Australia and look at the alcohol related traffic fatality rates. The USA has fatality rates 2-3 times higher than these other car dependent cultures. 

Alcohol Related Fatalities per 100,000 population
   1.7 Australia
   2.7 Canada
   6.1 United States

The differences are teens in these cultures are taught responsible alcohol use from a young age, and alcohol isn't held as a forbidden fruit in these other cultures, and being drunk is frowned upon by their societies.

By changing the alcohol culture in the United States we could save 30,000 lives annually. Vermont's often a leader, and if we are concerned about lowering the rates of alcohol traffic fatalities in Vermont and the United States it is time to lower the drinking age to 18 and to allow teens to drink moderate amounts of alcohol when they are out at a restaurant or pub with their parents.

Also, moderate alcohol drinkers are 40% less likely to have heart attacks than alcohol abusers and abstainers. Moderate alcohol consumption is healthy. Again, this is another area where we could save many thousands of lives, but it requires a shift in our culture which is one of the most puritainical in the world.

Hardy Machia
http://www.freevermont.org/


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2005)

I wondered if someone was going to breath new life into this old thread. :roll: 



			
				HardyMachia said:
			
		

> Next, compare the United States to Canada or Australia and look at the alcohol related traffic fatality rates. The USA has fatality rates 2-3 times higher than these other car dependent cultures.
> 
> Alcohol Related Fatalities per 100,000 population
> 1.7 Australia
> ...



True up to a point...but many of the other countries cited have different cultural attitudes.  

We like to push the limits in the US.  Also, I know that many say, 'folks can drink in the UK at a young age and guess what?  They're are less DUI deaths,' and that's partially because most people live in urban areas/small towns that have a thing called public transportation.   :wink: 



> By changing the alcohol culture in the United States we could save 30,000 lives annually. Vermont's often a leader, and if we are concerned about lowering the rates of alcohol traffic fatalities in Vermont and the United States it is time to lower the drinking age to 18 and to allow teens to *drink moderate *amounts of alcohol when they are out at a restaurant or pub with their parents.



Now come on!  From being a teen once, I can tell you that teen years are about finding limits and pushing them.  

To allow drinking at that age, well, maybe.  But as I said before, studies show that folks are starting to drink now at 16 with the legal age being set at 21.  If we push that limit back to 18, then we can extrapolate that 11 or 12 yr olds would be drinking.  This would be a massive public health issue.  That makes no sense to me...

Teens are not psychologically developed enough to make good decisions...they don't have the experience to understand the consequences.  Mix this with inexperienced driving, and we've got a mess.  



> Also, moderate alcohol drinkers are 40% less likely to have heart attacks than alcohol abusers and abstainers. Moderate alcohol consumption is healthy.



I'm of age and have been for a little while.  I can tell you that my responsible drinking came from the lessons I learned from my family and values.  Dropping the drinking age my friend does nothing to educate people or introduce these values.  

Besides, "drink responsibly" is a line that is kind of ironic considering that alcohol impairs one's ability to make rational decisions.   :wink:


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## dmc (May 27, 2005)

case in point...

My family has always had guns...
When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....

I never tried to shoot the guns unless he was around because I respected them. 

Kids always want what they can't have...


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## Angus (May 27, 2005)

mixed feelings on this one - but would fall on side of keeping the legal age at 21. here is my observation about Europeans drinking habits which I  admit upfront is a generalization

having worked for a number of european companies and traveled extensively there for work, my observation is that Europeans drink with much greater regularity - likely nearly everyday after work - but not as excessively. I would still guestimate that most patrons upon leaving the bar would be blowing above the legal limit. The big difference that I've observed is a) the availability of public transportation is much greater - so they are not behind the wheel after a stop at the bar & b)they don't drive big SUVs that are more prone to carnage when they do go off the road. I would also say without having looked at any empirical data that in many european countries, the # of days lost or productivity lost due to drinking is greater than here in the US - just my 1st hand observation. remember too that the idea of the subdivision is foreign in most places outside NA - there are plenty of neighborhood pubs and bars located within easy walking distance of your flat.


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

Trailboss, you have a valid point about the insurance increasing. I was talking with one bar owner about the drinking age, and they brought up the insurance issue. The thing is that they already have a problem with insurance. A large part of the problem is the legislature messing with insurance. We've seen the problem with health insurance and workman's comp. The reason the bar owners insurance would go up if the law says the bar owner is responsible, now if we changed the law so that the individual is held responsible for their own actions and the courts followed a similar line of reasoning then the insurance rates would decrease for bar owners.

Hardy


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> case in point...
> 
> My family has always had guns...
> When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....
> ...



You just proved my point...nobody has any respect any more.


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## dmc (May 27, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> dmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dad also used to let me have a nip of beer now and then and I'm not a raving drunk..  Well most nights I'm not...


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> To allow drinking at that age, well, maybe.  But as I said before, studies show that folks are starting to drink now at 16 with the legal age being set at 21.  If we push that limit back to 18, then we can extrapolate that 11 or 12 yr olds would be drinking.  This would be a massive public health issue.  That makes no sense to me...



You are looking at different studies than the Vermont and Federal studies that I'm looking at then.

The studies show that kids still start drinking at around 12-13 -- whether the drinking age is 18 or 21, or with complete prohibition.

Looking specifically at Vermont, Vermont studies show drinking among 16/17/18 year olds has decreased a little bit, but drinking among 8th graders has increased by 17% since 1986 when the drinking age was 18. 17% is the smallest amount, some years have seen more than a 100% increase among 8th graders.

The thread needs to be revived because there are a lot of myths that the prohibitionist and governement continues to put out there that need to be challenged and shown to be false. Once we do that then we can save 60,000 more lives each year in the United States  once we reform our bad alcohol policies.

Hardy


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2005)

HardyMachia said:
			
		

> Trailboss, you have a valid point about the insurance increasing. I was talking with one bar owner about the drinking age, and they brought up the insurance issue.



Yes, liability for bar owners is a concern but my main thrust was *auto insurance*.   



> The thing is that they already have a problem with insurance. A large part of the problem is the legislature messing with insurance. We've seen the problem with health insurance and workman's comp.



Well, if insurance rates were set by the legislature in MA, then we'd be getting ripped off.  Right now we are VERY safe drivers and are paying a ridiculously low price.  Those who are risks to the company are paying more.  The system is working.  



> The reason the bar owners insurance would go up if the law says the bar owner is responsible, now if we changed the law so that the individual is held responsible for their own actions and the courts followed a similar line of reasoning then the insurance rates would decrease for bar owners.



Agreed somewhat.  The problem is not the COURTS, which seem to be a scapegoat for pretty much everything, the problem lies, again, with what I've said...people being responsible for their own actions.  Someone who admits that they are responsible and lives with it don't sue others  :roll:  

The law that you refer to is most likely derived from caselaw and the precedent that has been set by other cases.


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2005)

HardyMachia said:
			
		

> The thread needs to be revived because there are a lot of myths that the prohibitionist and governement continues to put out there that need to be challenged and shown to be false. Once we do that then we can save 60,000 more lives each year in the United States  once we reform our bad alcohol policies.
> 
> Hardy



Simply dropping the drinking age does not solve the problem of underage drinking or make people more responsible!  If it were that easy, don't you think that we would have already done it?   :wink:


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

For those of you who are arguing about public transportation being the difference in highway traffic fatalies, that is exactly why I used Canada and Australia. They are much closer to the USA as far as car culture goes than most European countries. So, its a myth that public transportation  is the reason why non American countries are safer. -- Australia 75% safer, Canada 50% safer are two cases in point.

Yes, the Europeans drink much more than Americas. America is ranked 32 or 37th in the world for per person alcohol consumption. There is nothing wrong with drinking regularly, numerous studies show the health benefits of it. The thing you can't do is abuse alcohol which is something Americans seem to be better at than other countries, which is a result of our culture and the fact that unlike the rest of the world we make it a forbidden fruit and tell our kids you can't drink until you are 21. 

In Vermot parents can be put in jail for up to 2 year and fined between $500 of $2000 for giving their kid a sip of alcohol.

Hardy Machia


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> HardyMachia said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## HardyMachia (May 27, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> dmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To paraphrase the Department of Liquor Control Officer that I talked to last year about the drinking age. "Yes lowering the drinking age is a great idea. Today's 18-year-olds are not responsible like they used to be when the drinking age was 18." Of course, when you take away responsibility from people and give it to someone else or to the government the indidividual will readily give up their respoinsibilty and be less responsible. The solution is to put the responsibility back and hold them accountable for their actions.

Hardy Machia


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2005)

HardyMachia said:
			
		

> Today's 18-year-olds are not responsible like they used to be when the drinking age was 18." Of course, when you take away responsibility from people and give it to someone else or to the government the indidividual will readily give up their respoinsibilty and be less responsible. The solution is to put the responsibility back and hold them accountable for their actions.
> 
> Hardy Machia



Yes, but your argument is to simply lower the drinking age, no?

And do we want people who have little experience driving on the roads with alcohol in their system?  No, of course not!


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## noreaster (May 27, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> In weighing benefits vs. risks, this is a no-brainer.
> 
> Instead I think they should allow parents to offer some amount of alcohol to 18-21 year olds with restrictions,
> -Stephen


  I agree.  Kids still want to celbrate key sports victories etc.  Today the kids drink from their cars.  If it were legal for parents to serve kids within limits, then ...... ahh I don't know.  

Look automobiles are killing machines without alcohol.   With alcohol automobiles are even better at killing people. There even better then all the wars put together.  What is it now 40,000 fatalities per year or 50,000 per year just in the USA.   500  won't make it this weekend.    

I hope everyone has a safe memorial day weekend. Enjoy yourself :beer:.  Don't drink and drive and watch out for the other guy.


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## Mike P. (Jun 1, 2005)

We were responsible at 18?  I would beg to differ although as a generality perhaps a larger percentage of kids in the 70's were more responsible but there are some responsible ones now.

Hmmm, at 18 I lost 2 teeth in an alcohol related incident

Had a  couple of nights before 21 of not remembering how I got home & I was the driver

my brother hit a house
another brother hit a bridge

I had to rip out a page in my year book I could not let my kids see - I was sober but incident was quite bad & showed by irresponsibility

Fact that all of my parents seven children have reached age 32+ (well my two sisters had a good shot at it but my brothers & I?????) is amazing

we did lose 4 students in my senior class, two in an accident where where were on a windy local road at an estimated 95 MPH was either drug or alcohol related or both.

We drank in cars at 16 & 17 we weren't so immature then & at 18 became mature & responsible.  we drank in cars at 18 too, with limited cash, a six pack of Molson was $5.  two of them in a bar would have been that or more, besides we had to cruise our town (read turf as we thought about it 26 years ago)

Drinking is not a maturity issue. Want something to equate being drafted or volunteering to go to war?  You are also old enough to vote & therefore you have a say in how our country is run.


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## NHhiker (Jun 2, 2005)

being a younger teen, i know how hard it is to not drink a ber by the time you are 13. i think you should be able to drink at 18. you can do everthing else, like vote, gamble, smoke, chew, and be drafted. so why not let them drink? i dont think they should have full drinking rights. i think they should have to A.) have a 21 year old buy them drinks, but let them drink it. B.) limit what kinds they can drink.

thats just my 2 cents.


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## flyingfree (Jun 3, 2005)

*Lower the drinking age..*

Wow, hot topic.  It's like saying, should we legalize pot.  NO, don't get into that with me!!

I was legal at 18.  We didn't have picture ID's.  I drank at 16 because my 18 year old brother bought for me.  The drinking age got raised in NJ (1/2 of us were grandfathered, half of us were banned)  We'd swap licenses and get in.

Other people drove to NY and got killed on the way home because the age was still 18 in NY.

I partied like crazy in high school and college.  I drove drunk underage and as an adult.

My parents brought us up drinking wine at the table during holidays and sunday dinner from the age of 9...so we would be responsible.

I just loved to drink and I snuck it as much as I could and hung out in the bars throughout my 20's.

Eventually I got married, had a kid and grew up.  I don't bother with it anymore.  I've raised my daughter to be very conscious...but she's 15 now and God knows what she'll do.  I certainly hope she doesn't take after me.

Having a drinking age in a way doesn't work.  My friend from Germany was chasing her 14 year old daughter around, grabbing her from Amsterdam because she was off and running drinking and drugging LEGALLY.

I think the only way to help with kids drinking is to be an example and to educate them.  If I don't want my daughter to drink, I shouldn't be getting smashed at home and romanticizing it.  I don't.  And when and if she starts...if she is irresponsible she will have consequences.

If she wants to drink at home 18 and older, I will allow that as long as she stays at home and doesn't drink and drive.

I don't want to see my 18 year old in a bar.  That's where I hung out.  I know where that can lead.  When she goes to college it will be a whole different game.  But there is a difference to me having a high schooler at a bar and a college student, or someone who lives independantly and supports themselves.  I guess it's basic maturity.  (and when does maturity actually kick in???)

Yeah, it sucks to go off to war and then not be able to come home and drink.  But in my opinion, drinking shouldn't be the national past time either.


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## Jaytrek57 (Jun 5, 2005)

> I understand, but cannot verify, that the bars on station allow all service personel a drink.



This is simply not true. All Bases/forts (Homeland) are 21+ to drink.

Now the enforcement, or ease, of which under 21 service men (and women) can get alcohol on post is probably twice as easy than in civilian life.

There seems to be line of thinking here that 18,19 year old service men (and women) are somehow more mature, responsible than others. I grant you more structured ( :wink: ).

Alcohol abuse on bases/forts is a huge, I mean huge problem. Binge drinking is common and Article 15's are given out like candy on Mondays.

Perhaps it is just me, but it really upsets me when one generation critiques another. And it happens with every generation.

WE had better music. WE did things better. WE had to walk ten miles to school, uphill, both ways. When I was 18 (20 years ago) I thought when I heard these types of statements from "older" people, well, it was crap. I still feel that way.

I think in a lot of ways we have made it more difficult/shameful for kids to MAKE their fair of growing up mistakes. (I could probably of worded this better.)

Todays kids have x amount more problems then a generation ago. They also have x amount more potential for successes. 

Just my $.02.

I need a drink. :beer:


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## marcski (Jun 5, 2005)

I'm a free spirit..and believe that people should have the right to choose...pretty much anything they'd like. 

I agree with some others here...who mentioned responsibleness comes from home..with parents.  In europe they grow up with alcohol of some sort on the table.  

I mean, if your giving someone the opportunity to vote, be in the army, by all means they should be able to have a cold beer at a ballgame.


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## bigbog (Jun 6, 2005)

If any keg-headded, draft-dodgin' MF like the one presently occupying the White House can order you into harms way, based on the whim of a few top a-hole politicians, I say...darn right...anyone over 13 deserves the right to responsibly consume alcohol.  What the raising of the drinking age has done in this society is to let all the absentee parents get a little more free time to screw off....paying attention only to their bank accounts.
Successful parents PREPARE a youngster for making their own decisions, in other words...to accept responsibilities.  The extreme ends of the stick, abuse or denial usually end up with the same problems of misuse, no matter what the object is, alcohol or any other addiction.  Young people who are introduced to activities that are DONE by a family member, hence the entire family, "develop" <- key word!...interests other than addictions.  Just a short example...one glass of beer AFTER chores were done, and a friend was over for conversation or for planning a trip, is a LOT different than focusing the attention on how much consuming of alcohol or whatever substance one can take/abuse.


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## DeLaPortilla (Jun 24, 2005)

I've been looking into this issue for several months now, and it seems no matter what statisic one uncovers, there is always one to rebutt it, so honestly the strongest point that still remains unchalleneged is that the drinking age should be lowered simply because it is our right.  If no one finds it ludacris that one could be sent home in a body bag after serving their country, yet they still could not have a drink back at home, there is something extremely wrong with our ethics in this country


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## ctenidae (Jun 24, 2005)

I think you can leave that last clause as a stand alone statement there, *DeLaPortilla*.


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2005)

bigbog said:
			
		

> If any keg-headded, draft-dodgin' MF like the one presently occupying the White House can order you into harms way, based on the whim of a few top a-hole politicians, I say...darn right...anyone over 13 deserves the right to responsibly consume alcohol.  What the raising of the drinking age has done in this society is to let all the absentee parents get a little more free time to screw off....paying attention only to their bank accounts.
> Successful parents PREPARE a youngster for making their own decisions, in other words...to accept responsibilities.  The extreme ends of the stick, abuse or denial usually end up with the same problems of misuse, no matter what the object is, alcohol or any other addiction.  Young people who are introduced to activities that are DONE by a family member, hence the entire family, "develop" <- key word!...interests other than addictions.  Just a short example...one glass of beer AFTER chores were done, and a friend was over for conversation or for planning a trip, is a LOT different than focusing the attention on how much consuming of alcohol or whatever substance one can take/abuse.



This argument sums it up best...forbidden fruit always tastes the sweetest, so if you make it illegal for your children to drink, all you really do is:

1) put them in the position of breaking the law, because they will experiment.

2) deny them the education they need to consume alcohol responsibly. 

This is a parental issue, not a legal one.


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## dmc (Jun 24, 2005)

JimG. said:
			
		

> This is a parental issue, not a legal one.


My Dad used to let me drink a beer or two when I was a teenager.. 
Also let me shoot guns...


I actually have a lot of respect for both things now..

I guess that parenting stuff has some merit...


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## JimG. (Jun 24, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> I actually have a lot of respect for both things now..
> 
> I guess that parenting stuff has some merit...



My parents let me have a glass of wine occasionally when I was as young as 10 during special occasions or holidays. My parents even got a little drunk with me at a frat party when I was in college. My Dad and I played a few games of beer-pong...both of us had to chug one! 

Needless to say, my frat brothers thought my parents were the coolest thing on Earth. Because alcohol was NEVER a big deal to me, I was never a falling down, barfing on shoes, wreck my car kind of drinker as a result.

I have allowed my 11 and 9 year olds to try a sip or two of wine or beer, and my 3 year old has taken a sip of the bubbly at New Years (the bubbles got him to make a funny face that was priceless). I'm sure there are those who will cringe and think I abuse my kids, but I look at it quite the opposite way...not teaching them and not letting them try alcohol is more abusive because the stuff is rampant in our society...they had better learn how to deal with it responsibly!


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