# Subaru to Buy Hummer



## campgottagopee (Jun 2, 2009)

You heard it here first!!!!! :-o


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## o3jeff (Jun 2, 2009)

Have you heard what the reasoning behind that is? Is the military still using them or are they looking to get into the middle east auto market.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 2, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> You heard it here first!!!!! :-o




i saw the articles today about a potential buyer having been found, but, that buyer being subaru is a joke, right?


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## campgottagopee (Jun 2, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> i saw the articles today about a potential buyer having been found, but, that buyer being subaru is a joke, right?



Yup---just bored this morning


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

I can't wait to see Ken Block drifing the H2...


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Yup---just bored this morning



was going to say, does Subaru have a death wish.  While certainly not at the forefront of alternative fuels; (in fact I've never read anywhere regarding Subaru pursuing hybrid technology) Subaru is perceived by many to be a 'green' car company.  That image would be destroyed by the purchase of Hummer.


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> Have you heard what the reasoning behind that is? Is the military still using them or are they looking to get into the middle east auto market.



For well-fed lesbians who don't fit in a Forester.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> was going to say, does Subaru have a death wish.  While certainly not at the forefront of alternative fuels; (in fact I've never read anywhere regarding Subaru pursuing hybrid technology) Subaru is perceived by many to be a 'green' car company.  That image would be destroyed by the purchase of Hummer.



Subaru is, or was, trying to get a diesel engine here in the states.  Properly setup turbo diesels can get just as good mileage as hybrids, and actually be fun to drive.  The last I checked the German manufacturers weren't pursuing hybrid either, in favor of pushing for better diesel technology.


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## RootDKJ (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> For well-fed lesbians who don't fit in a Forester.


Hanging out in Rutland again??uke:


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> The last I checked the German manufacturers weren't pursuing hybrid either, in favor of pushing for better diesel technology.




GM, BMW and Daimler co-developed the "two-mode" hybrid currently in GM trucks and to be rolled out soon in the German automakers' cars.  

an example of an alliance that "works"....

diesels are fuel-efficient and can be fun, but so long as diesel costs more in the States (unlike in Europe, where it's like 25% cheaper than unleaded), i think it'll be more of a novelty (especially since there's a perception that diesel cars are dirty and unreliable (left over from the 70s/80s)).


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## RootDKJ (Jun 2, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> GM, BMW and Daimler co-developed the "two-mode" hybrid currently in GM trucks and to be rolled out soon in the German automakers' cars.
> 
> an example of an alliance that "works"....
> 
> diesels are fuel-efficient and can be fun, but so long as diesel costs more in the States (unlike in Europe, where it's like 25% cheaper than unleaded), i think it'll be more of a novelty (especially since there's a perception that diesel cars are dirty and unreliable (left over from the 70s/80s)).


On the same lines..I'm pretty sure that Ford licensed some of the hybrid technology used in the Prius from Toyota for use in the Escape.


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Hanging out in Rutland again??uke:



Yeah, I'll bet you could get a hummer in Rutland for around $10.00


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> GM, BMW and Daimler co-developed the "two-mode" hybrid currently in GM trucks and to be rolled out soon in the German automakers' cars.
> 
> an example of an alliance that "works"....
> 
> diesels are fuel-efficient and can be fun, but so long as diesel costs more in the States (unlike in Europe, where it's like 25% cheaper than unleaded), i think it'll be more of a novelty (especially since there's a perception that diesel cars are dirty and unreliable (left over from the 70s/80s)).



I guess I haven't been keeping up to date.  I shouldn't have said anything.  It's funny, as I was writing that I was thinking of an article I read a few years back about how BMW wasn't interested in pursuing hybrid technology at all, they saw it as more of a fad, or something like that.  Times change I guess.

Thanks for the update.

I personally would rather see more invested into diesels in the states, I'm not sold on this hybrid stuff.  It wasn't too long ago that diesel was cheaper here in the states too, something happened and it shot up higher than unleaded and it stayed there.  I don't really understand that.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 2, 2009)

Not so far fetched. Fuji Heavy industries makes trucks and as the parent of Subaru I could see them being interested, but not Subaru itself.


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## RootDKJ (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Yeah, I'll bet you could get a hummer in Rutland for around $10.00


Hahahahahaha :lol:


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Subaru is, or was, trying to get a diesel engine here in the states.  Properly setup turbo diesels can get just as good mileage as hybrids, and actually be fun to drive.  The last I checked the German manufacturers weren't pursuing hybrid either, in favor of pushing for better diesel technology.



Indeed Subie is working on clean and efficient diesels.  If memory serves, they released one for Europe and hope to bring one to the states in the next couple of years.  They were also working on a hybrid, but the future of that program is less certain.

While IMO hybrids don't make a ton of sense today when compared to clean high tech diesels that are available in Europe, I am still happy that the manufacturers are making them avaialble.  We are basically in the second generation of hybrids and they are already doing well to provide good mileage and solid reliability.  A few more generations of refinement, cost reduction, improvements on battery technology and they will become a great option to consumers.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I personally would rather see more invested into diesels in the states, I'm not sold on this hybrid stuff.  It wasn't too long ago that diesel was cheaper here in the states too, something happened and it shot up higher than unleaded and it stayed there.  I don't really understand that.



I would really love more diesels here as well.

Diesel was cheaper here because it was a dirtier version. A law was passed to force cleaner diesel in the US. Now the diesel we have here is on par with the euro diesel which will make it easier to get the euro diesel cars here. It's gas that's much more expensive (taxed like crazy) over there making the diesel more affordable.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> I would really love more diesels here as well.
> 
> Diesel was cheaper here because it was a dirtier version. A law was passed to force cleaner diesel in the US. Now the diesel we have here is on par with the euro diesel which will make it easier to get the euro diesel cars here. It's gas that's much more expensive (taxed like crazy) over there making the diesel more affordable.



Thanks for the clarification on diesel costs.  That makes sense.


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I personally would rather see more invested into diesels in the states, I'm not sold on this hybrid stuff.  It wasn't too long ago that diesel was cheaper here in the states too, something happened and it shot up higher than unleaded and it stayed there.  I don't really understand that.



Most states tax the hell out of diesel fuel on the theory that trucks use it and tear the heck out of the roads.  Without the tax, it costs roughly the same as home heating fuel.  The low-sulfur blend now required might jack up the price a couple of pennies.  "Off Road" diesel that isn't taxed is cheaper than unleaded at the pump in Vermont.  Given that diesel gives you around 30% more energy per gallon than gasoline, that's a very good value.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Most states tax the hell out of diesel fuel on the theory that trucks use it and tear the heck out of the roads.  Without the tax, it costs roughly the same as home heating fuel.  The low-sulfur blend now required might jack up the price a couple of pennies.  "Off Road" diesel that isn't taxed is cheaper than unleaded at the pump in Vermont.  Given that diesel gives you around 30% more energy per gallon than gasoline, that's a very good value.



That makes even more sense, thanks.

How is the 'off road' diesel sale regulated?  I assume it's for use in construction equipment, groomers, etc.., but how do they stop it from being used in cars and trucks?


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## drjeff (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Yeah, I'll bet you could get a hummer in Rutland for around $10.00



That much?? :lol:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> You heard it here first!!!!! :-o



good news!!!!  Now you can get some mad steezy commissions off H2 hummers..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> was going to say, does Subaru have a death wish.  While certainly not at the forefront of alternative fuels; (in fact I've never read anywhere regarding Subaru pursuing hybrid technology) Subaru is perceived by many to be a 'green' car company.  That image would be destroyed by the purchase of Hummer.



I don't think of Subaru as a green company..most of their vehicles including my Impreza get pretty mediocre gas mileage...maybe outdoorsy..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Yeah, I'll bet you could get a hummer in Rutland for around $10.00



In Plattsburgh NY they're $30


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## Glenn (Jun 2, 2009)

Diesel prices started creeping up before the low sulfer stuff was mandated by the gub'ment. Worldwide demand for diesel picked up when the economies of China and India took off. 

I think diesels make more sense than hybrids. You can get better mileage in a "normal" car. The Insight and the Prius are nothing more than jazzed up sub compacts. Hey, if you want to drop $20k on a Yaris with a "hybrid" badge on it, so be it. Even when gas prices were around $4 a gallon, the payoff to break even with a hybrid was years. (extra cost paid vs a traditional car). I can't even what it was when gas was hovering at $2. 

To be fair, diesels still have a bit of a payoff time as well. The premium you pay for a Jetta TDi vs a gasoline Jetta will take a few years to recoupe in fuel savings. 

And a random FYI for the non forum gear heads...or people who haven't fallen asleep yet reading my ramblings. 99.9% of the Hummers are basically a GM truck chasis with a Hummer body. IIRC, the H3 is built on the Colorado chasis, the H2 on the full size Chevy truck chasis. The H1 is the military version with has nothing in common with the H3 or H2.


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

All this talk about hybrid this and diesel that... all these technologies are just duct tape.  The root of the problem is huge cars and performance cars -- and huge performance cars  ..

20 years ago we had Honda Civics getting 45mpg - no hybrid technology and no fancy diesel.  Light weight, small profile, small engine.

The Prius gets 45mpg on the highway...oh and when cruising it doesn't use its hybrid drive.  It gets that mileage because it has a slipery design and a tiny/efficient gas engine.

Buy small!


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I don't think of Subaru as a green company..most of their vehicles including my Impreza get pretty mediocre gas mileage...maybe outdoorsy..



I think that they are seen by some as green because they are much more efficient in their R&D and manufacturing process than most companies.  R&D and manufacturing usually makes up half the total energy footpring.

For example, I think I remember reading that their main factory in Japan is a zero landfill operation and it uses a bunch of renewable energy for power.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 2, 2009)

koreshot said:


> For example, I think I remember reading that their main factory in Japan is a zero landfill operation and it uses a bunch of renewable energy for power.



I think that's actually (or also) the factory they have down south (Tennessee maybe?).


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## campgottagopee (Jun 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I don't think of Subaru as a green company..most of their vehicles including my Impreza get pretty mediocre gas mileage...maybe outdoorsy..



They are hugely green---there manufacturing plants create zero landfill waste and their cars are "PZEV" (parially zero emmission)

We will see dielsel in the U.S., and sooner than later. two years ago there was talk of bringing Hybrid tech to the U.S. but now that plan has been put away. From what research they've done they feel diesel is the way to go.


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> That makes even more sense, thanks.
> 
> How is the 'off road' diesel sale regulated?  I assume it's for use in construction equipment, groomers, etc.., but how do they stop it from being used in cars and trucks?



Different dye color.  If you get bagged running 'off road' diesel on the road, there's a substantial fine.  Of course, anybody who works at a boat yard drives a diesel pickup and runs marine diesel.  I'm sure the same is true of any farm diesel pickup.  If you live in a rural place farming rocks, I doubt anybody is going to hassle you.

My dad had a Mercedes diesel during the 1970's gas crisis.   If he couldn't get fuel, he'd pump home heating oil into it from the tank in the basement.  You can't do that in the dead of winter since it would have big jell issues but it works just fine as long as the temperature stays moderate.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

If the waste doesn't go in a landfill, where does it go???  So you're saying that the Suburu plant doesn't have dumpsters???


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> My dad had a Mercedes diesel during the 1970's gas crisis.   If he couldn't get fuel, he'd pump home heating oil into it from the tank in the basement.  You can't do that in the dead of winter since it would have big jell issues but it works just fine as long as the temperature stays moderate.



Back in the day I heard of guys that drive diesel trucks for work going home and topping off their home heating oil with the company paid diesel in their trucks.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 2, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> Have you heard what the reasoning behind that is? Is the military still using them or are they looking to get into the middle east auto market.



Hummer was just bought by a a big Chinese company which makes heavy industrial parts, I can't pronounce or spell the name of the company. You can Google it

There is confusion between the Hummer and the Humvee. The Hummer is a GM brand copied from the Humvee for rich guys with little wee-wees. Humvee is the military vehicle now built by Oshkosh Trucking up there is cheeseland. The heavy armor is put on by another military contractor.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Hummer was just bought by a a big Chinese company which makes heavy industrial parts, I can't pronounce or spell the name of the company. You can Google it
> 
> There is confusion between the Hummer and the Humvee. The Hummer is a GM brand copied from the Humvee for rich guys with little wee-wees. Humvee is the military vehicle now built by Oshkosh Trucking up there is cheeseland. The heavy armor is put on by another military contractor.



The Hummer H1 is a civilianized version of the Humvee and was produced on the same assembly line as the military version, by AM General.  It was produced from 1992 to 2006.  In 1999 GM entered into a joint venture with AM General and acquired the Hummer brand name as part of the agreement.  From what I can tell AM General also builds the H2, though it is made up of some parts from GM.


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## campgottagopee (Jun 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> If the waste doesn't go in a landfill, where does it go???  So you're saying that the Suburu plant doesn't have dumpsters???



You know it's true because Edmunds says so:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/124147/article.html


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> The Hummer H1 is a civilianized version of the Humvee and was produced on the same assembly line as the military version, by AM General.  It was produced from 1992 to 2006.  In 1999 GM entered into a joint venture with AM General and acquired the Hummer brand name as part of the agreement.  From what I can tell AM General also builds the H2, though it is made up of some parts from GM.



I believe OshGosh got the contract from AM General a couple of years ago. I get some links.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I believe OshGosh got the contract from AM General a couple of years ago. I get some links.



That may be, I couldn't find that out with a quick search.  My point was that the H1 wasn't a GM copy of the original.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> That may be, I couldn't find that out with a quick search.  My point was that the H1 wasn't a GM copy of the original.



I didn't say the H! was a copy but it was based on the Humvee used in Desert Storm to much media acclaim. Wasn't Gov musclebound a big proponent of someone building a consumer version of the Humvee right after?

It turns out my info was old regarding the manufacturer. OshKosh looked like it would be building the new version of a vehicle to replace the Humvee
http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=17EC8761-CAC9-BD6D-20B9FC0E902D4E3C
at the moment AM General/General Dynamics builds the Humvee but I think it's days are numbered.

Anyways, back to the OP. The new Chinese owner of the brand Hummer does not plan to sell them in the US from what little I have heard about the deal on CNBC today.


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## bvibert (Jun 2, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I didn't say the H! was a copy but it was based on the Humvee used in Desert Storm to much media acclaim. Wasn't Gov musclebound a big proponent of someone building a consumer version of the Humvee right after?



You made a broad statement, which I clarified:



ski_resort_observer said:


> The Hummer is a GM brand copied from the Humvee for rich guys with little wee-wees.



That statement, to me, encompasses all the Hummer's, including the H1.

Yes, Arnold Schwarzenegger campaigned for the civilian version.


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## bigbog (Jun 2, 2009)

*...GM is/was made up of many different people..*

Much of the approved product design process at GM had to have, for years,  taken place out on the golf course...whatd'ya all think...;-)


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> You made a broad statement, which I clarified:
> 
> That statement, to me, encompasses all the Hummer's, including the H1.
> 
> Yes, Arnold Schwarzenegger campaigned for the civilian version.



I'm just referring to the H1, not too familar with the H2. 

A few years ago when I lived in Maine my neighbor bought the H3 and I was over there one day checking it out. Personally I thought it was a totally useless vehicle. On the first page of the owners manual it says in big letters, Not recommended for Towing. It's built on a GM Coloradan truck platform. So no power, not AWD or 4WD. I asked my neighbor what possessed him to buy it and his honest answer."it impresses his real estate clients".


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## Johnskiismore (Jun 2, 2009)

This is the first time today going onto AZ, my eyes almost fell out of my head when I saw the title of this thread!  You got me!!


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I asked my neighbor what possessed him to buy it and his honest answer."it impresses his real estate clients".



How sad is that?  The H3 is indeed pointless.

As an avid SUV and truck hater, I am pretty excited about GM downsizing in hopes that a good portion of their big cars will be eliminated.  I am sure they will still keep enough around for the folks who actually need them, the rest of the bandwagoners can go buy reasonably sized cars.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2009)

Lots of talk about diesel being more expensive than unleaded in this thread.  That hasn't been the case lately around me with the latest run up in unleaded prices.  Last I checked, diesel was about 10 cents cheaper a gallon than 87 octane.


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## andyzee (Jun 2, 2009)

Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado 
 Convertible, hot pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow 
 interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm 
 gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles per hour, getting 1 mile 
 per gallon, suckin' down quarter pound cheeseburgers from McDonald's 
 in the old-fashioned non-biodegradable styrofoam containers and when
 I'm done suckin' down those greaseball burgers I'm gonna wipe my mouth
 on the American Flag and then I'm gonna toss the styrofoam containers 
 right out the side, and there ain't a goddamn thing anybody can
 do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why Two 
 words: Nuclear efin weapons, OK? Russia, Germany, Romania, they 
 can have all the democracy they want...they can have a big democracy 
 cakewalk right through the middle of Tienamen Square and it won't make 
 a lick of difference, because we got the bombs, OK? John Wayne's not 
 dead, he's frozen! And as soon as we find a cure for cancer, we're 
 gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know 
 why? Have you ever taken a cold shower? Well, multiply that by 15 
 million times, that's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be. 
 I'm gonna get the Duke and John Casavetti and Lee Marvin.............................


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## RootDKJ (Jun 2, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado
> Convertible, hot pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow
> interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm
> gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles per hour, getting 1 mile
> ...


Welcome back AndyZee!


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Lots of talk about diesel being more expensive than unleaded in this thread.  That hasn't been the case lately around me with the latest run up in unleaded prices.  Last I checked, diesel was about 10 cents cheaper a gallon than 87 octane.



Again... depends on which state you're talkin' 'bout since the state tax can be such a major component in diesel pricing.  New Hampshire fuel tax on diesel isn't all that bad. If you go somewhere like Connecticut, you'll find that diesel is higher than gasoline.

If you look on the NYMEX futures market, heating oil is $1.77 and gasoline is $1.92 before you layer on taxes, transportation costs, and a really modest price markup.  Diesel tracks heating oil since it's basically the same stuff.  

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html

You can also see the gasoline futures prices charted for the year with the recent runup here:
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/RB/69


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## Glenn (Jun 2, 2009)

koreshot said:


> How sad is that?  The H3 is indeed pointless.
> 
> As an avid SUV and truck hater, I am pretty excited about GM downsizing in hopes that a good portion of their big cars will be eliminated.  I am sure they will still keep enough around for the folks who actually need them, the rest of the bandwagoners can go buy reasonably sized cars.



The margins were in the larger vehicles for GM (and Ford and Chrysler for that matter). So effectively, getting rid of the larger vehicles may indeed be detrimental to the company. Don't even get me started on the silly laws built into CAFE that are nothing more than Union protection clauses and force the domestics to make smaller cars in the US of A...at a loss. 

And before this turns into a domestic hAtEr fest...The margins are there for the Asian brands as well. Honda makes a pretty penny on the Pilot and Ridgeline. Toyota does well with its trucks. 

IMHO, GM should downsize if the market demands they downsize. Making smaller cars because someone thinks it's the right thing to do is just on big ass mistake, America.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado
> Convertible, hot pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow
> interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm
> gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles per hour, getting 1 mile
> ...




Dennis Leary is the bomb deezy..hey we'll all be dead in the next 50+ years so hook me up with a double steezeburger


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2009)

simply amazing how cheap gas is..a freaking bargain..even at $4 a gallon like last summer


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## andyzee (Jun 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Dennis Leary is the bomb deezy..hey we'll all be dead in the next 50+ years so hook me up with a double steezeburger



You know what I'm talking about. Screw the lil rug rats, let em beg on the corners.


_Life's gonna suck when you grow up, when you grow
up, when you grow up Life's gonna suck when you
grow up, it sucks pretty bad right now Hey, if you
know the words, sing along You're gonna have to
mow the lawn, do the dishes, make your bed You're
gonna have to go to school until you're seventeen
It's gonna seem about tree times as long as that
You might have to go to war, shoot a gun, kill a
nun You might have to go to war when you get out
of school Hey cheer up kids, it gets a lot worse
You're gonna have to deal with stress, deal with
stress, deal with stress You're gonna be a giant
mess when you get back from the war Santa Claus
does not exist, and there is no Easter Bunny
You'll find out when you grow up that Big Bird
isn't funny Life's gonna suck when you grow up,
when you grow up, when you grow up Life's gonna
suck when you grow up, it sucks pretty bad right
now You're gonna end up smoking crack, on you're
back, face the fact You're gonna end up hooked on
smack and then you're gonna die And then you're
gonna die_


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

Glenn said:


> The margins were in the larger vehicles for GM (and Ford and Chrysler for that matter). So effectively, getting rid of the larger vehicles may indeed be detrimental to the company. Don't even get me started on the silly laws built into CAFE that are nothing more than Union protection clauses and force the domestics to make smaller cars in the US of A...at a loss.


I see your point, but my safety on the road, reduction in pollution and dependence on oil (foreign and domestic) ranks higher with me personally than a car manufacturer's bottom line.  Looks like most Americans agree - many of the bigger cars have been sitting on dealer lots, for example Hummer :grin:.  



Glenn said:


> And before this turns into a domestic hAtEr fest...The margins are there for the Asian brands as well. Honda makes a pretty penny on the Pilot and Ridgeline. Toyota does well with its trucks.


This isn't a domestics vs. foreign, its just that this thread is primarily about GM so.  You won't hear me disputing the point about Toyota.  Toyota has gone overboard too with the seemingly 100 different SUV and truck models between it and Lexus.  The Prius is more of a "brand image adjuster" to make folks think they are all about the environment.  



Glenn said:


> IMHO, GM should downsize if the market demands they downsize. Making smaller cars because someone thinks it's the right thing to do is just on big ass mistake, America.


I won't touch this with a 10 foot pole - mainly cause I am not an economist.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jun 2, 2009)

koreshot said:


> I see your point, but my safety on the road, reduction in pollution and dependence on oil (foreign and domestic) ranks higher with me personally than a car manufacturer's bottom line.  Looks like most Americans agree - many of the bigger cars have been sitting on dealer lots, for example Hummer :grin:.
> 
> 
> This isn't a domestics vs. foreign, its just that this thread is primarily about GM so.  You won't hear me disputing the point about Toyota.  Toyota has gone overboard too with the seemingly 100 different SUV and truck models between it and Lexus.  The Prius is more of a "brand image adjuster" to make folks think they are all about the environment.
> ...



I think you drive a Subie of some sort, but what model do you drive(or other car if not Subie?)


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## mondeo (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Again... depends on which state you're talkin' 'bout since the state tax can be such a major component in diesel pricing.  New Hampshire fuel tax on diesel isn't all that bad. If you go somewhere like Connecticut, you'll find that diesel is higher than gasoline.
> 
> If you look on the NYMEX futures market, heating oil is $1.77 and gasoline is $1.92 before you layer on taxes, transportation costs, and a really modest price markup.  Diesel tracks heating oil since it's basically the same stuff.
> 
> ...


Diesel's now slightly cheaper in CT, even. My guess is the fall-off in trucking, shipping, etc. has been steeper than auto traffic.


koreshot said:


> All this talk about hybrid this and diesel that... all these technologies are just duct tape.  The root of the problem is huge cars and performance cars -- and huge performance cars  ..
> 
> 20 years ago we had Honda Civics getting 45mpg - no hybrid technology and no fancy diesel.  Light weight, small profile, small engine.
> 
> ...



Small yes, slow no. You can get into the 30s for mileage on Corvettes without too much problem. In fact, increasing engine efficiency goes hand in hand with performance; many of the technologies that improve efficiency also improve performance, as they result in more of the energy in the fuel being effectively put to use.

A lot of the additional weight has been regulated into place, too. A Civic in '89 weighed about 2100lbm, today it's 2600lbm. You can't make a car today that weighs less than 2000lbs, for all practical purposes. Even a Lotus Elise, designed purely for low weight (not even a radio,) weighs 1900lbs.

Why not diesel hybrids?


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## koreshot (Jun 2, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Small yes, slow no. You can get into the 30s for mileage on Corvettes without too much problem.



I didn't say buy slow, I said buy small.  And yes, the Corvette is rated at 25mpg and folks regularly get close to 30mpg today.

Sure, safety requirements and consumer standards make it difficult to make cars as light as they were 20 years ago.  Kinda funny, my 5 year old car does 0-60 in 12 seconds on a good day and I find it perfectly adequate for daily commuting. The new Prius, a car supposedly designed to maximize fuel efficiency, would obligerate me off the line .  And the magazines still complain that the Prius is too slow. :uzi:


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## Geoff (Jun 2, 2009)

koreshot said:


> I didn't say buy slow, I said buy small.  And yes, the Corvette is rated at 25mpg and folks regularly get close to 30mpg today.
> 
> Sure, safety requirements and consumer standards make it difficult to make cars as light as they were 20 years ago.  Kinda funny, my 5 year old car does 0-60 in 12 seconds on a good day and I find it perfectly adequate for daily commuting. The new Prius, a car supposedly designed to maximize fuel efficiency, would obligerate me off the line .  And the magazines still complain that the Prius is too slow. :uzi:



One of the KZone mods has a fleet of Corvettes.  On the highway at the speed limit, they get over 30 mpg.  If you put narrow, hard tires on it, you'd probably get closer to 40 mpg.  ....though there's really no point in doing that.

I drive a turbo 4 as my daily driver.  I think it's the right way to go since you get the thrift and low weight of a small engine most of the time but the performance is there when you want it.  At this time of year, I get well over 30 mpg if I keep it near the speed limit.  In the winter with thicker air, I lose around 3 mpg and see a rapid drop-off at higher speeds.  

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, cars have become bloated.  All the safety features like side intrusion and air bags adds several hundred pounds.  My transmission is pretty heavy.  Air conditioning.  Power windows.  Wide rims.  My VW GTI is 500 pounds heavier than a 25 year old version of the car and the interior volume of the car must be at least 25% more.  The same is true of things like Honda Civics.


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## Glenn (Jun 3, 2009)

koreshot said:


> I see your point, but my safety on the road, reduction in pollution and dependence on oil (foreign and domestic) ranks higher with me personally than a car manufacturer's bottom line.  Looks like most Americans agree - many of the bigger cars have been sitting on dealer lots, for example Hummer :grin:.
> 
> 
> This isn't a domestics vs. foreign, its just that this thread is primarily about GM so.  You won't hear me disputing the point about Toyota.  Toyota has gone overboard too with the seemingly 100 different SUV and truck models between it and Lexus.  The Prius is more of a "brand image adjuster" to make folks think they are all about the environment.
> ...



I'm not so sure about the trucks sitting on the lot. Just to be safe, I looked up some data on Wards.com: http://wardsauto.com/keydata/USSalesSummary0905/

For May 2009: 
Total Car sales: 484,028
Total Truck Sales: 439,318


2009 Year to date: 
Car sales: 2,015,408
Truck sales: 1,922,288

It seems pretty even to me. Granted, we don't have productions numbers or "days on hand" of inventory. I will say though, I read in the WSJ that smaller car inventory is stacking up. Days on hand is much higher than it was a year ago. Probably due to gas prices. 

If you're happy with a smaller vehicle for whatever reason, that's totally cool with me. I'm certainly not one to dictate what you, or anyone else should by. In the same vein, I think the same should be granted to me...or anyone else: Buy what you like. 

You're on the money with Toyota..and I'd say Honda as well. Many people think they're "greener" than domestic or other makers. Reality is, they're just about the same.


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## drjeff (Jun 3, 2009)

Geoff said:


> My VW GTI is 500 pounds heavier than a 25 year old version of the car and the interior volume of the car must be at least 25% more.  The same is true of things like Honda Civics.



Some of this needs to be accounted for in the plain and simple fact that a good percentage of the population is about 25% physically larger than they were 25 years ago


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## koreshot (Jun 3, 2009)

Geoff said:


> As was pointed out earlier in this thread, cars have become bloated.  All the safety features like side intrusion and air bags adds several hundred pounds.  My transmission is pretty heavy.  Air conditioning.  Power windows.  Wide rims.  My VW GTI is 500 pounds heavier than a 25 year old version of the car and the interior volume of the car must be at least 25% more.  The same is true of things like Honda Civics.



Time to downgrade to the Mini Cooper S.    ... saves you 800 lbs, but you give up space and the DSG (if thats what you have).  

The MINI too is a ton heavier than than the original Mini.


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## koreshot (Jun 3, 2009)

Glenn said:


> If you're happy with a smaller vehicle for whatever reason, that's totally cool with me. I'm certainly not one to dictate what you, or anyone else should by. In the same vein, I think the same should be granted to me...or anyone else: Buy what you like.



I agree with this in principle - this isn't a socialist country.....     yet 

But in practice, where do we stop?  If someone wants to drive a tank with 10 foot spikes on the bumper, should we let them?  

The issue I have on the road is - I am buying a car that is as small as possible but still meets my 4 person family's needs.  This benefits me as well as crazy-nj-soccer-mom, because it reduces pollution, dependence on oil and lowers potential of accidents/damage/death thanks to better active safety and lower kinetic energy.

But, crazy-nj-soccer-mom goes and buys the Cadillac Escalate XLT Superdestroyer Edition, slaps on a tubular grill guard called "The Punisher" and goes flyind down the parkway at 90mph while talking on the cell phone and possibly into the back of my much smaller car.

Doesn't seem fair to me.

I am not saying I know the answer to the problem -- for example, I don't know how we address that some folks honestly need the F350 super duty while others don't and you can't make the truck too expensive because the folks that really need it won't be able to afford it -- I am just stating my frustration with the situation.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 3, 2009)

koreshot said:


> I agree with this in principle - this isn't a socialist country.....     yet
> 
> But in practice, where do we stop?  If someone wants to drive a tank with 10 foot spikes on the bumper, should we let them?
> 
> ...





along the lines of what you're say, might more prohibitive gaz guzzler taxes and maybe an overweight-car tax (for such cars' negative effects on roadways) help steer people to more sensible cars?


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## Marc (Jun 3, 2009)

I'd just like to point out that, with this post, there are now three engineers participating in this thread.  AlpineZone just gets better by the day.


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## Marc (Jun 3, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> along the lines of what you're say, might more prohibitive gaz guzzler taxes and maybe an overweight-car tax (for such cars' negative effects on roadways) help steer people to more sensible cars?



I think Kore's point, one which I support, is that there are people who need large and overweight vehicles to make their living.

The farmers around here who rent land parcels a distance from their farms have to register their farm trucks... the contractors, handymen, firewood guys, landscapers... the last thing any of these guys need is an additional gas guzzler tax.  They already pay a proportionally higher tax for road use in the form of fuel tax since they use more of it.


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## bvibert (Jun 3, 2009)

Marc said:


> I'd just like to point out that, with this post, there are now three engineers participating in this thread.  AlpineZone just gets better by the day.



If you say so.  Seems like a bunch of dweebs who don't know anything about cars to me...


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 3, 2009)

Marc said:


> I think Kore's point, one which I support, is that there are people who need large and overweight vehicles to make their living.
> 
> The farmers around here who rent land parcels a distance from their farms have to register their farm trucks... the contractors, handymen, firewood guys, landscapers... the last thing any of these guys need is an additional gas guzzler tax.  They already pay a proportionally higher tax for road use in the form of fuel tax since they use more of it.





aah, ok, i was focusing on the nj soccer mom complaint, not those that need certain equipment for work.  i think my proposal could still work by giving professionals a tax credit or something.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 3, 2009)

bvibert said:


> If you say so.  Seems like a bunch of dweebs who don't know anything about cars to me...




totally.  like this post, for example.


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## bvibert (Jun 3, 2009)

Marc said:


> I think Kore's point, one which I support, is that there are people who need large and overweight vehicles to make their living.
> 
> The farmers around here who rent land parcels a distance from their farms have to register their farm trucks... the contractors, handymen, firewood guys, landscapers... the last thing any of these guys need is an additional gas guzzler tax.  They already pay a proportionally higher tax for road use in the form of fuel tax since they use more of it.



I agree with this.  Clearly the only solution is public stoning of the drivers of pick-up trucks that clearly have never had anything in the bed.

Such an additional tax could probably be added to large SUVs.  I can't think of too many people who's livelihood depends on large SUVs.  And before all you SUV drivers get pissed at me, we have two at home.  The next time we purchase a car for my wife I don't think it'll be another SUV though..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I agree with this.  Clearly the only solution is public stoning of the drivers of pick-up trucks that clearly have never had anything in the bed.
> 
> Such an additional tax could probably be added to large SUVs.  I can't think of too many people who's livelihood depends on large SUVs.  And before all you SUV drivers get pissed at me, we have two at home.  The next time we purchase a car for my wife I don't think it'll be another SUV though..



I thought Carrie was dead set on getting the old Jeep back on the road for her next ride.  :lol:

You might have a battle on your hands there big man.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 3, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Clearly the only solution is public stoning of the drivers of pick-up trucks that clearly have never had anything in the bed.





you're on to something, brian.  maybe at inspection time the number of scratches and dents in the bed could be counted.  less than 15?  $500 "pointless use of pick-up" tax.  less than 30?  $250 tax.  and so on.

i'm kind of half kidding.


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## bvibert (Jun 3, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought Carrie was dead set on getting the old Jeep back on the road for her next ride.  :lol:
> 
> You might have a battle on your hands there big man.



I carefully worded that as the next time we _purchase_ a vehicle for her it won't likely be a SUV.  We already own the Jeep, which she will be driving shortly (hopefully), after that we'll be _purchasing_ her something...


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## campgottagopee (Jun 3, 2009)

Marc said:


> I'd just like to point out that, with this post, there are now three engineers participating in this thread.  AlpineZone just gets better by the day.





bvibert said:


> If you say so.  Seems like a bunch of dweebs who don't know anything about cars to me...



Or they could know too much.....


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## Paul (Jun 3, 2009)

Marc said:


> I'd just like to point out that, with this post, there are now three engineers participating in this thread.  AlpineZone just gets better by the day.



Make that four...

I bought a hummer once, only cost $10, probably because of the gratuitous use of teeth.


/wait, what?


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## Geoff (Jun 3, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Time to downgrade to the Mini Cooper S.    ... saves you 800 lbs, but you give up space and the DSG (if thats what you have).
> 
> The MINI too is a ton heavier than than the original Mini.



I really don't want smaller.  My mountain bike fits inside my GTI.  That wouldn't happen in a Mini Cooper S unless I pulled the rear wheel off.  The first generation Mini S with the supercharger kind of turned me off.  It got crap gas mileage.  The 2nd generation with the turbo wasn't proven yet when I was flipping cars.  I haven't been following it in the last 18 months but the Mini has an even more dubious reliability history than Volkswagen.

My present GTI is 300+ pounds heavier than my last one.  The DSG transmission and the 18" wheels are the obvious sources of weight gain but some of it is just the extra steel required to make it stiffer and safer.  My fuel economy is just fine and exactly the same as I saw with the last one.  The performance is now largely unused given the number of points I have on my license in the People's Republic of Vermont and Live Free or Die land.  I'm Mister Speed Limit for a while in those two states.


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## mondeo (Jun 3, 2009)

I'd love an AWD Lotus Elise with a 7-speed sequential gearbox, 7th being overdrive.


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## koreshot (Jun 4, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I haven't been following it in the last 18 months but the Mini has an even more dubious reliability history than Volkswagen.



Yeah, Minis are pretty hit or miss.  There have been a couple of model years with ok reliability, but usually that goes for the non-S model.  Its always stupid things that break on then - the major components are pretty solid and can take a serious beating.


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## drjeff (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Yeah, Minis are pretty hit or miss.  There have been a couple of model years with ok reliability, but usually that goes for the non-S model.  Its always stupid things that break on then - the major components are pretty solid and can take a serious beating.



My sister in-law LOVES her Mini - then again she's one of those folks who could get a 10,000 mile a year lease and have PLENTY of extra miles left over at the end of each year


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## ctenidae (Jun 4, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I personally would rather see more invested into diesels in the states, I'm not sold on this hybrid stuff.  It wasn't too long ago that diesel was cheaper here in the states too, something happened and it shot up higher than unleaded and it stayed there.  I don't really understand that.



A few things drove up diesel- one easy one was taxes aimed at trucks that didn't have a huge price impact, but brought diesel slightly closer to gas. Then Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel requirements that made it a lot more expensive to make diesel. What really crunched the price, though, was the introduction of the 10% ethanol requirement Interestingly, one of the byproducts of refining gasoline is hydrogen, which is used to clean sulfur from diesel. Adding 10% ethanol to gas means, effectively, 10% less gasoline production, which means the hydrogen goes away, too, so refiners have to buy hydrogen to clean the sulfur out of the diesel, which makes diesel more expensive.

All in all, though, the efficiency gain of diesel outweighs the price differential, even if only a bit. And mid-May, the EIA's pricing showed Gas as more expensive (by a penny), though AAA's numbers showed gas as still more expensive (by a penny)


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## Paul (Jun 4, 2009)

drjeff said:


> My sister in-law LOVES her Mini - then again she's one of those folks who could get a 10,000 mile a year lease and have PLENTY of extra miles left over at the end of each year



Same with my wife.


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## bvibert (Jun 4, 2009)

ctenidae said:


> A few things drove up diesel- one easy one was taxes aimed at trucks that didn't have a huge price impact, but brought diesel slightly closer to gas. Then Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel requirements that made it a lot more expensive to make diesel. What really crunched the price, though, was the introduction of the 10% ethanol requirement Interestingly, one of the byproducts of refining gasoline is hydrogen, which is used to clean sulfur from diesel. Adding 10% ethanol to gas means, effectively, 10% less gasoline production, which means the hydrogen goes away, too, so refiners have to buy hydrogen to clean the sulfur out of the diesel, which makes diesel more expensive.
> 
> All in all, though, the efficiency gain of diesel outweighs the price differential, even if only a bit. And mid-May, the EIA's pricing showed Gas as more expensive (by a penny), though AAA's numbers showed gas as still more expensive (by a penny)



Thanks for more insight.

I'm glad to hear that diesel seems to be right around gas now.  I don't usually check the prices since I don't own a diesel car, heck I don't usually even pay much attention to the gas prices.


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## ctenidae (Jun 4, 2009)

bvibert said:


> heck I don't usually even pay much attention to the gas prices.



Me either, personally- if I'm in the car and the needle points to E, not much choice, I think.

Professionaly, it makes a difference, since energy investing is what I do these days. Of course, day to day movements are less than useful indicators of anything. Hell, NYMEX futures are wrong 90% of the time, and dead wrong the other 10%.


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## severine (Jun 4, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought Carrie was dead set on getting the old Jeep back on the road for her next ride.  :lol:
> 
> You might have a battle on your hands there big man.





bvibert said:


> I carefully worded that as the next time we _purchase_ a vehicle for her it won't likely be a SUV.  We already own the Jeep, which she will be driving shortly (hopefully), after that we'll be _purchasing_ her something...




It was a tough decision, actually... continue driving the Blazer (which is a huge POS) which gets 14 MPG and is 11 years old. Or fix the 1978 Jeep Cherokee S, which is a bigger vehicle... and also gets about the same MPG. Plus the Cherokee is a beaut. 

In the end... sure, getting a vehicle with better gas mileage would save me money at the pump. BUT both these vehicles are paid off and adding a car payment would cost me more overall. So yeah, hate me. I'll be driving this beast again soon. But at least I won't have a car payment. 






I do miss my VWs. The Cabrio regularly got 25 mpg. The 1980s Jettas would get more than 30 mpg. But I can't fit everything I need in one of them. And, again, I don't want a car payment. I'll likely get another VW car once we have enough money saved, but it won't be a small one. Just can't do it these days.


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## bvibert (Jun 4, 2009)

ctenidae said:


> Me either, personally- if I'm in the car and the needle points to E, not much choice, I think.



Exactly!  If I need gas I stop at the nearest convenient station and get some.  I'm definitely not going to drive all over town to try and save a few cents.


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## koreshot (Jun 4, 2009)

drjeff said:


> My sister in-law LOVES her Mini - then again she's one of those folks who could get a 10,000 mile a year lease and have PLENTY of extra miles left over at the end of each year





Paul said:


> Same with my wife.



Is the Mini a women only car or something?


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## severine (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Is the Mini a women only car or something?



There's a very nice man who runs the Veteran's office in our town who drives a mini. He loves that thing.


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## Paul (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Is the Mini a women only car or something?



My mom drives one too.


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## mondeo (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Is the Mini a women only car or something?


Aunt drives one.

Charlize Theron and Mark Whalberg drove them in the Italian Job.


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## koreshot (Jun 4, 2009)

So the Mini is now a "girly car"?  Thats just wrong!  

Especially when it is probably in the top 3 of the best handling front wheel drive cars the US has ever seen, in stock form anyway.


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## Marc (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> So the Mini is now a "girly car"?  Thats just wrong!
> 
> Especially when it is probably in the top 3 of the best handling front wheel drive cars the US has ever seen, in stock form anyway.



Is that kinda like being the smartest man from Arkansas?





I keeed...


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## mondeo (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> So the Mini is now a "girly car"? Thats just wrong!
> 
> Especially when it is probably in the top 3 of the best handling front wheel drive cars the US has ever seen, in stock form anyway.


Girly car is about perception, not capability. If I were to ever buy a FWD car again,  the Mini would be on the list.


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## koreshot (Jun 4, 2009)

Marc said:


> Is that kinda like being the smartest man from Arkansas?



Not Arkansas, but pretty close... took the Mini to the boonies of West Virginia a few months ago.  Summit Point Shenandoah circuit.

I can't believe I am saying this, but it was more fun than skiing.

Pictures taken near the carousel, which is an exact dimmensional replicate of the famous Nurburgring carousel.  Holy suspension compression!!!


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## billski (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Is the Mini a women only car or something?


  only if it has a flower vase.


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## ctenidae (Jun 4, 2009)

koreshot said:


> Is the Mini a women only car or something?



My brother in law drives one.
After 2.5 years, he got run into, and was praying it would be totalled. It wasn't. He was upset.


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## Geoff (Jun 4, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Exactly!  If I need gas I stop at the nearest convenient station and get some.  I'm definitely not going to drive all over town to try and save a few cents.



I pay attention to prices and shop at the cheapest place that's along my route.  I also glance at the web-based gasoline price reporting site when I'm going to make a lengthy trip to get an idea of where I should be buying gas along the way.  I won't drive out of my way to save a few pennies but I comparison shop gasoline just like I comparison shop everything else.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I pay attention to prices and shop at the cheapest place that's along my route.  I also glance at the web-based gasoline price reporting site when I'm going to make a lengthy trip to get an idea of where I should be buying gas along the way.  I won't drive out of my way to save a few pennies but I comparison shop gasoline just like I comparison shop everything else.



same here.  Prices can vary as much as 20 cents locally and 30-40 cents up in Maine.


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