# Snowboarding in serious decline?



## Boston Bulldog (Dec 1, 2013)

Saw this in the Globe a few days ago and I was intrigued.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...-popularity/FAkg6xIGM0PitZem5TT2uL/story.html

One interesting quote: “Our ski sales have just hammered our snowboards,” said Mike Murphy, Sanchez’s boss at Sportworks in Duxbury, which he manages. “For every 25 pair of skis we sell, there’s maybe one snowboard. It used to be 50-50.”

I really don't know what to think of this because from what I see on the slopes leads me to think that Snowboarding is still on the rise.


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## Bene288 (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't know much about the technology in snowboards. But all my friends that ride with me have had their boards for 7 or more years it seems. Meanwhile my skiing buddies and I are getting new skis every 2-4 years. I've been told that snowboards don't change as much as skis do, so maybe that has to do with the sales. 

I still see plenty of people riding. I'd say its almost 50/50 depending on where you go.


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## billski (Dec 1, 2013)

I saw some onslope rental shop stats for one area.  This year they stock 33% boards, 66% skis.

It's not fair to judge the ski population on how much they purchase.  Perhaps boarders, as a group are more frugal, or maybe they don't trash their boards like skiers do, lessening the need for new purchases.

Regarding the overall participation, the other industry wide stat is that the number of boarders have stagnated, while skier numbers are up.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

Though I agree with the suggestion that snowboarding is on a decline (at the moment), I think the methodology here is a bit skewed because their data (sales of boards) has more to do with the demographics of the buyers than the amount of participants.  Sure, lower snowboard sales might be indicative of a decrease, but snowboarders tend to be younger folks with less disposable income to buy new gear every year.  

A fairer assessment might be to ask areas the breakdown of skiers vs. boarders. 

And, FWIW, I did post an article a while back that did suggest that the number of snowboarders was declining with twin tips and rockers being a possible reason why.


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## Boston Bulldog (Dec 1, 2013)

Could you dig out that article Trailboss?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

Not the one I was thinking of, but here is one:  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...graphics-on-the-Slopes?highlight=snowboarding

I think this is it:  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...arding-increase-in-skiing?highlight=snowboard

They also based their conclusions, in part, on equipment sales.


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## billski (Dec 1, 2013)

Here are the numbers for 2012/13

Snowboarding.  Snowboarding trended down for the third consecutive season, declining to  under 30 percent of total visits.  This figure is down gradually from  32.0 percent four seasons ago (2009/10). ...snowboarding appears to be leveling off, if not declining slightly, as  it matures as a sport.  Snowboarding is not the growth engine it once  was, which has implications related to business volumes and spending for  the industry.

Snowboarding has declined the most in the Pacific South region, though  it remains the region with the highest share of visits attributable to  snowboarders (42 percent). The mix of people on the hill who are on a  snowboard is lowest in the Rocky Mountain and Northeast regions (24 and  26 percent, respectively). You just don’t see as many snowboarders in  Vermont or Colorado as you do in California or Michigan.

Source:
_Kottke End of Season Study
National Ski Areas Association (NSAA)

reportage:
http://www.liftopia.com/blog/201213-ski-season-wrapup/


http://www.liftopia.com/blog/snowboarding-stall/

_


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

Bingo:



> “I snowboarded for four seasons,” said Sanchez. “The skis then were pretty traditional, and the technology was not advancing. But the past couple of years, the new designs have made skiing much easier, especially in powder and the woods. So I went back into skiing.”
> 
> The new technology?  It’s called rocker, or reverse camber (tech details later), and it allows skiers to take advantage of another of the sport’s trends: skiers and boarders skiing the groomed trails in sometimes densely wooded glades where making quick turns in loose snow is the required art form du jour.
> 
> ...




I didn't think about the ice issue.

The Globe article cites the earlier one that we were all discussing.  

And I'm not quite sure WTH this means:




> “Parents in this town see that the twin tips still have the graphics and the baggy clothes, but they ﬁgure that at least their kids are not going over to boarding,” said Murphy.


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## Boston Bulldog (Dec 1, 2013)

billski said:


> Here are the numbers for 2012/13
> 
> Snowboarding.  Snowboarding trended down for the third consecutive season, declining to  under 30 percent of total visits.  This figure is down gradually from  32.0 percent four seasons ago (2009/10). ...snowboarding appears to be leveling off, if not declining slightly, as  it matures as a sport.  Snowboarding is not the growth engine it once  was, which has implications related to business volumes and spending for  the industry.
> 
> ...



This really hit the nail on the head Bill.


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## octopus (Dec 1, 2013)

yeah, we're all quitting and taking up super awesome skiing! seems like at least one of these type of articles comes out every year, snowboardings not going away anytime soon. sorry guys.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2013)

Interesting that the Northeast has such low snowboarding numbers.


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

I'm not sure how I can face my day now...

I guess the skiers won... woah is me... haha...


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## C-Rex (Dec 2, 2013)

I would say it's more because people new to winter sports are now more likely to start off skiing since it's 1) Easier to learn from the beginning and kids are pansies these days, and 2) Now more fashionable than in the past, mainly because the ski industry followed the snowboard industry in terms of clothing.  Skiing doesn't have the negative stigma with younger people that it used to.  Also, skiers often have a different pair of skis for any given set of conditions, i.e. rock skis, pow skis, race skis, all-mountain skis, etc.  Whereas, boarders usually have one, maybe two boards.  All-mountain and park.  Skiers, from my experience, also tend to buy new gear more often.  It seems they're always looking for that ski that will do X a little better.  Reminds me of mountain bikers.  They seem to look to their equipment to make them better instead of working on themselves.  Not to mention that a lot of people are still changing over to shaped skis, and the rocker movement has caught on along with "magne-traction" style edges.  You all can thank snowboarders for that too.  :wink:

Disclaimer: The above statements are generalizations for the sake of arguement.  I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I don't need to read 50 posts about how you don't fit into what I just said.


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## andrec10 (Dec 2, 2013)

dmc said:


> I'm not sure how I can face my day now...
> 
> I guess the skiers won... woah is me... haha...



You started as a skier.....Come back from the dark side....


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## billski (Dec 2, 2013)

octopus said:


> yeah, we're all quitting and taking up super awesome skiing! seems like at least one of these type of articles comes out every year, snowboardings not going away anytime soon. sorry guys.



I know you are being slightly facetious, but a ~7% drop in a single year does not belie doom and gloom.  Skier visits fluctuate from year to year even more so than that, due to many external forces such as the economy, shortage of Red Bull  , etc.   The message I hear in the Kottke report is that boarder visits are flat.  Remember, these reports are written for the ski industry.  It is telling the resorts to not bank on growth in this sector.

Another piece of data missing from the equation is the demographics by age.  There is this "limbo" period where a large chunk of participants disappear significantly due to the child raising years, roughly ages 30 to 50.  

Finally, the overall attendance at resorts has generally been flat over the past decade.   In and of itself, that portrays that the 1/3 - 2/3 split may be here to day.  Nobody is going away!


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## Domeskier (Dec 2, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> Also, skiers often have a different pair of skis for any given set of conditions, i.e. rock skis, pow skis, race skis, all-mountain skis, etc.  Whereas, boarders usually have one, maybe two boards.  All-mountain and park.  Skiers, from my experience, also tend to buy new gear more often.



Not really sure how this supports your argument.  Skiing sounds pretty costly compared to snowboarding, if this is correct.  I guess the prospect of spending more money could cause more people to become skiers, but that sounds counterintuitive.

Edit: I see.  You were explaining why there might be more ski sales.  Should have read the first page first....


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## billski (Dec 2, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> Also, skiers often have a different pair of skis for any given set of conditions, i.e. rock skis, pow skis, race skis, all-mountain skis, etc.  Whereas, boarders usually have one, maybe two boards.  :wink:



Excellent point.  Since this thread was started in regard to equipment sales, I say "whoop-dee-doo!"   Big deal; sales are down.  Go sell something else like GoPro cameras!


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

andrec10 said:


> You started as a skier.....Come back from the dark side....




I can still kick ass....


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

I actually own 5 snowboards...
2 are splitboards..
1 is a powder board which I never use..

Only 2 do I use day2day...  And both of those are trashed... I have a new one on order...
I've had both day2day decks for 4 years now...


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## St. Bear (Dec 2, 2013)

One interesting thing I do notice is that the further north I travel, the fewer snowboards I see.


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

St. Bear said:


> One interesting thing I do notice is that the further north I travel, the fewer snowboards I see.



And further north I travel the more terrain is open and more woods are available.....


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## kcyanks1 (Dec 2, 2013)

While my sample size is not great, and my observations spread some years, I've noticed very few snowboards at Sugarbush (at least South) and Stowe, and more at Jay and Gore (has been a few years since I was there).  Haven't skied southern VT in a long time.  As far out west, my most recent trips have been to Jackson (was there a number of years straight up until the year before last), and skiers are a big majority there it seems.


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## HowieT2 (Dec 2, 2013)

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet, but the growth is in the AT market and most who are looking to do sidecountry/backcountry are not doing so on snowboards for obvious reasons.


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## C-Rex (Dec 2, 2013)

dmc said:


> I actually own 5 snowboards...
> 2 are splitboards..
> 1 is a powder board which I never use..
> 
> ...



Did you not read my disclaimer? :wink:

I'm the same way. I've kept all the boards I've ever owned so you could say I have 6 but 3 are retired. My last years day2day is now my rock board. I want to add a split at some point when the funds situation allows.  I generally keep my boards for 3-4 seasons, although my last Custom went 5.5 because it kicked so much ass and I wanted to spend more money on going riding than buying gear.


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## C-Rex (Dec 2, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet, but the growth is in the AT market and most who are looking to do sidecountry/backcountry are not doing so on snowboards for obvious reasons.




I understand the "obvious" reasons.  Easier to get around on skis, less changeover time from skinning to decending, etc.  But ususally people go to the backcountry to find powder, and IMO, nothing beats snowboarding on powder.  So I think it's worth the extra changeover time to rock a splitboard instead of going over to the "light side".  It's all down to preference in the end.  I'm not going to convince a hardcore skier to convert anymore than a skier is going to convert me.  But I think those just getting into sliding on snow will go with what's easier to learn (skiing) unless the people they go with are primarily snowboarders.  Since there's more skiers to begin with, it's easy to see why skiing is growing and not snowboarding.


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## Cannonball (Dec 2, 2013)

I snowboard 30-50+ days a year.  My wife does the same.  And we bring our 3 nephews boarding a bunch of times during the year.  For the 5 of us I have probably purchased about 20 snowboards in the past 10 years.  Of all those boards only one was purchased new at a store.  So despite hundreds of days on the slopes, including adults and kids, we would barely register at all in this data set.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> I snowboard 30-50+ days a year. My wife does the same. And we bring our 3 nephews boarding a bunch of times during the year. For the 5 of us I have probably purchased about 20 snowboards in the past 10 years. Of all those boards only one was purchased new at a store. So despite hundreds of days on the slopes, including adults and kids, we would barely register at all in this data set.



How many other folks do you know snowboard? Have any dropped the sport for skiing? Why?  And have you considered switching?  If so, why not?

Sorry for the questions...just interested in hearing your thoughts on the topic since you are so active.


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## Cannonball (Dec 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> How many other folks do you know snowboard? Have any dropped the sport for skiing? Why?  And have you considered switching?  If so, why not?
> 
> Sorry for the questions...just interested in hearing your thoughts on the topic since you are so active.



I don't mind the questions.  

It's hard to say how many other people I know that snowboard (too many to count up).  Of the many, many people I know on the mountain, I'd say it's slightly skewed towards skiers. Although most of my friends do both.  I ski and snowboard.  So far this year I have 3 days boarding and 2 skiing.  My season ratios are typically 75% board, 25% ski.  If I had to only choose one I would snowboard. 

I don't know any snowboarders who have dropped the sport for skiing.  I do know some snowboarders who have essentially dropped the sport for other pursuits.  I'd say that's not quite as true for skiers that I know. 

As to the Backcountry perspective.  I went from tele, to AT, then this year I bought a splitboard.  I still have the AT gear but I doubt I will maintain it, and will probably exclusively split.  I'd just prefer to be on a board when I'm in the woods.  Plus my split setup is much lighter (and cheaper) than my AT gear.  

I have no idea what the real trends are.  There are definitely a lot of younger kids getting into skiing right now.  It seemed like a few years ago they would have been snowboarding.  I imagine it's like anything else....cycles that come and go.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

I think that is a good point that people do both sports.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 2, 2013)

An interesting note to the Boston Globe article is that they contacted a shop that sells both skis and snowboards.  They should check into what is happening at _snowboard only _shops for a valid view of the status of snowboard sales.  My son is an avid rider and the staff at a typical ski shop does not have the product knowledge and enthusiasm for the sport that you'll find at shops that are dedicated to snowboarding.  He has purchased all of his gear for the past several years at dedicated snowboard shops.


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## Nick (Dec 2, 2013)

The less people do it the cooler it will become again 8)


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## Savemeasammy (Dec 2, 2013)

I wonder how much the twin tip skis erode snowboardings' market share?  I would guess that many snowboarders get their start because they want to ride the parks (I can tell you that my 6 year old is in love with parks!).  Perhaps having the option of getting twin tip skis takes away some market share that might otherwise go to snowboarding?


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## steamboat1 (Dec 2, 2013)

I'm a skier so I'm not an expert on snowboards. I know the one shop I frequent most often has the shop split into two sections. Ski's, boots & skiing apparel are located in the front section of the shop with it's own dedicated staff. The back end of the shop is dedicated to snowboards, gear & apparel with it's own separate staff. They used to have a separate building on the property dedicated to just snowboarding but I guess that didn't work out. The building is still there but it hasn't been used in years. I would think that the people they hire are well versed in the separate disciplines since they only work in that section. Much of the staff has been there for years.


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## C-Rex (Dec 2, 2013)

WWF-VT said:


> An interesting note to the Boston Globe article is that they contacted a shop that sells both skis and snowboards. They should check into what is happening at _snowboard only _shops for a valid view of the status of snowboard sales. My son is an avid rider and the staff at a typical ski shop does not have the product knowledge and enthusiasm for the sport that you'll find at shops that are dedicated to snowboarding. He has purchased all of his gear for the past several years at dedicated snowboard shops.



This is a good point.  I have also found that shops selling both are usually biased toward skiing, both in knowledge and selection.  While a lot of older people are snowboarding these days (I'm 32), I'd say the majority of "adults" ski.  So as a business, I can see them rather cater to people with more disposable income then a bunch of kids who will do a lot of looking but much less buying.  And when they do buy, I'll bet its actually the parents making the purchase, and those parent's are not going to buy them a new board every year just because of some small technilogical advancement when they have a perfectly good board at home.


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## Cannonball (Dec 2, 2013)

I should mention one other thing about this article.  I am very familiar with the shop they quote (Sportworks in Duxbury, MA).  Although I like the guys there well enough, it is probably the last ski shop in all of New England that I would consider to be representative of the industry as a whole.  First of all, they are located in a flat, coastal town in southeastern, MA.  The closeest mountains are 2-3 hours away.  Secondly, Duxbury is a very homogenized, very high income, very white town.  Given their location, they are only servicing people from their town.  Nobody is driving out of their way to hit a ski shop in Duxbury.    I'm not saying any of this as a critique of the shop itself.  But wouldn't it make more sense to get your stats from several high volume shops located in ski country if you are going to make generalizations about the industry?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> I should mention one other thing about this article. I am very familiar with the shop they quote (Sportworks in Duxbury, MA). Although I like the guys there well enough, it is probably the last ski shop in all of New England that I would consider to be representative of the industry as a whole. First of all, they are located in a flat, coastal town in southeastern, MA. The closeest mountains are 2-3 hours away. Secondly, Duxbury is a very homogenized, very high income, very white town. Given their location, they are only servicing people from their town. Nobody is driving out of their way to hit a ski shop in Duxbury. I'm not saying any of this as a critique of the shop itself. But wouldn't it make more sense to get your stats from several high volume shops located in ski country if you are going to make generalizations about the industry?



Very true.  That echos my concerns as well...especially their comment about how Mommy and Daddy can allow their kid to dress cool and still ski without having to worry about them becoming a snowboarder.  :blink:  Seems like a dumb thing to say.  And I think that they should consider online retailers in the mix as well.


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## Boston Bulldog (Dec 2, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> I should mention one other thing about this article.  I am very familiar with the shop they quote (Sportworks in Duxbury, MA).  Although I like the guys there well enough, it is probably the last ski shop in all of New England that I would consider to be representative of the industry as a whole.  First of all, they are located in a flat, coastal town in southeastern, MA.  The closeest mountains are 2-3 hours away.  Secondly, Duxbury is a very homogenized, very high income, very white town.  Given their location, they are only servicing people from their town.  Nobody is driving out of their way to hit a ski shop in Duxbury.    I'm not saying any of this as a critique of the shop itself.  But wouldn't it make more sense to get your stats from several high volume shops located in ski country if you are going to make generalizations about the industry?



Yeah, the Globe should have found a better point of reference before writing this article. I grew up in Hingham, which is essentially the same town as Duxbury, and the amount of "true" skiers or snowboarders is quite low there as well. Most purchases and rentals in a South Shore ski shop would be made by locals, people who aren't the best representatives of the New England snow sports scene. lol

Loon and only Loon is their mountain of choice down there.


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2013)

One question I have is how do they actually know the ratio of snowboarding/skiing at a resort? I can't say I ever remember being asked when buying a ticket if I was skiing or snowboarding. I am assuming that these percentages are based on rentals and potentially small limited surveys. I was just up at the local hill yesterday and to me it seemed like the majority of the people on the slopes are snowboarders.


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## St. Bear (Dec 2, 2013)

mbedle said:


> One question I have is how do they actually know the ratio of snowboarding/skiing at a resort? I can't say I ever remember being asked when buying a ticket if I was skiing or snowboarding. I am assuming that these percentages are based on rentals and potentially small limited surveys. I was just up at the local hill yesterday and to me it seemed like the majority of the people on the slopes are snowboarders.



You don't need to ask people, you can just observe.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> Yeah, the Globe should have found a better point of reference before writing this article. I grew up in Hingham, which is essentially the same town as Duxbury, and the amount of "true" skiers or snowboarders is quite low there as well. Most purchases and rentals in a South Shore ski shop would be made by locals, people who aren't the best representatives of the New England snow sports scene. lol
> 
> Loon and only Loon is their mountain of choice down there.



I honestly think that the article was based on (previous) NSAA data that we've seen and discussed and that they merely were looking for someone to serve as anectdotal evidence.  In typical Globe fashion, they just did a quickie and went to this one shop rather than canvassing the New England region.  It is what it is.


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## mbedle (Dec 2, 2013)

True St Bear - but when you are using percentages like 7.7 or 32.6, I would guess those were calculated on some kind of hard numbers.


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet, but the growth is in the AT market and most who are looking to do sidecountry/backcountry are not doing so on snowboards for obvious reasons.




Or the growth in the splitboard market too...  
just about every manufacturer makes them now... crazy


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## Boston Bulldog (Dec 2, 2013)

dmc said:


> Or the growth in the splitboard market too...
> just about every manufacturer makes them now... crazy



What's a splitboard? A monoski?


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> What's a splitboard? A monoski?



Two pieces of plywood strapped to your boots for up hill travel that can be joined to form a snowboard for downhill


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> What's a splitboard? A monoski?


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## TheArchitect (Dec 2, 2013)

Up thread someone mentioned that snowboarders tend to be younger and less affluent so they don't buy as much gear. The stats say that snowboarding has plateau'd over the last four years, which happens to align roughly with the start of the recession. Perhaps that has played a part?  Less disposable income to go boarding at all.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2013)

TheArchitect said:


> Up thread someone mentioned that snowboarders tend to be younger and less affluent so they don't buy as much gear. The stats say that snowboarding has plateau'd over the last four years, which happens to align roughly with the start of the recession. Perhaps that has played a part? Less disposable income to go boarding at all.




No doubt.  And the recession is hurting younger folks disproportionately more than others.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> No doubt.  And the recession is hurting younger folks disproportionately more than others.



It hurts a lot.


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## Boardguy (Dec 2, 2013)

I skied as a kid and in college quite a bit then only skied a few times, due to a variety of circumstances. from my mid twenties to my mid 40s. When I had an opportunity to get back into it my son wanted to try boarding so we both took lessons. I skied a few more times over the next season but mostly boarded and then switched to the board full time. I have not been on skies in 15 seasons. Usually I get  in 25 to 30+ days a year and I have found that snowboard gear just lasts really well. I am past the "got to have the latest stuff thing" and have not needed to replace a lot of gear. I do have a few boards but none are very new. I am still buying a season pass but not so much equipment. So in my case equipment purchases do not really accurately gauge my involvement in the sport. Every year I say I may rent skis for a day but never seem to get around to it. Maybe this year, but then again.... My son is an avid boarder and backcountry rider (splitboard) and has never been on skis.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> *I think those just getting into sliding on snow will go with what's easier to learn (skiing)* unless the people they go with are primarily snowboarders.


Depends.  For children, skiing is generally easier to learn.  For adults, snowboarding is generally easier to learn.   I worked at the ski/snowboard novice area of a large mountain for 6 years, and you'd really notice this in the progress of raw beginner children/adults who were on a full week vacation.


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## mattchuck2 (Dec 2, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> What's a splitboard? A monoski?



Jesus. It's almost as if he isn't talking on a device that has the entirety of the world's information on it.


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## witch hobble (Dec 2, 2013)

This thread could be titled "Journalism in Serious Decline?....read this Boston Globe article and you be the judge."

A Southern California ski area manager gives a quote to The Denver Post and it is used by a Boston paper to confirm what the dude at the local ski shop said.  Or something.

Anecdotally, I would say there is much contraction in the # of days of many people I used to snowboard with.  Also, as the sport was mainstreamed it was no longer a natural pathway for youthful rebellion. And the skis are easier and funner for a wider cross section of people these days than they were in '92.  So it goes....there are still badass, ripping snowboarders out there and there are people doing the falling leaf thing and falling on their faces, laying frustrated in the middle of the trail.  

Anyone who really thought it was going to "save skiing" had the irrational exuberance/tunnel vision/bubble mentality.


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## TheArchitect (Dec 2, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Depends.  For children, skiing is generally easier to learn.  For adults, snowboarding is generally easier to learn.   I worked at the ski/snowboard novice area of a large mountain for 6 years, and you'd really notice this in the progress of raw beginner children/adults who were on a full week vacation.



I can attest to the kids having an easier time learning to ski.  My oldest started on a snowboard and after switching said it was much easier. My personal experience trying to learn to snowboard has been the opposite, though.  I took a couple lessons and put in 4 days trying to get the hang of it but just can't do it.  It's pretty frustrating because it looks like a lot of fun.  I'd love to be able to mix it up a bit but I suck at snowboarding :-D


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## powhunter (Dec 3, 2013)

The younger kids that should be getting into snowboarding are too busy playing xbox, smoking blunts, and eating taco bell.  That's the reason for the decline


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## ScottySkis (Dec 3, 2013)

powhunter said:


> The younger kids that should be getting into snowboarding are too busy playing xbox, smoking blunts, and eating taco bell.  That's the reason for the decline



They can do all that on the hill . Xbox gets boring after a while.


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## dmc (Dec 3, 2013)

powhunter said:


> The younger kids that should be getting into snowboarding are too busy playing xbox, smoking blunts, and eating taco bell.  That's the reason for the decline



And baggy pants... and hip hop music..   and bath salts... 

And get off my lawn you kids!!!!


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## andrec10 (Dec 3, 2013)

Someone sounds like an old Codger...


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## Fallingdown (Dec 3, 2013)

I am loving the stereotypes in this thread.  Those crazy kids and their bath salts


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## dlague (Dec 3, 2013)

From what I have read the ski industry was in decline a while back when snowboarding was on the rise.  As a result twin tip skis emerged and have  become the weapon of choice in the park.

In addition, backcountry skiing has taken off to some degree and skis are better for that but snowboarding has responded with split boards.  Still not as good in my opinion.

Our kids that snowboard are considering a switch to skiing due to the latest popularity returning to it!

Lets face it there is a whole lot more ski porn out there made by the bigger name production companies like WM, TGR and Sherpas.  Kids see that!


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## Highway Star (Dec 3, 2013)

Boston Bulldog said:


> What's a splitboard? A monoski?



Check it out here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=split+board


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## SnowRock (Dec 3, 2013)

I think when this came up last year I said something similar.. but really I just think you are seeing a sport go through its life cycle. Never ending growth is not a realistic expectation and periods with a plateau or even decline in participation numbers makes sense to me. Remember how young the sport really is.


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## Ice Queen (Dec 3, 2013)

It's all demographics, I bet. The population of children in the U.S. increased a lot during the 1990's and very little during the 2000's (children are under 18 years old) and the entire increase in population of kids during the 2000's was among groups other than non-Hispanic whites. So, the population of kids most likely to come from families with plenty of money to blow on snow sports (white ones) remained stagnant. Add to it the recession, and you get fewer snowboard sales. I think when kids get to be in their 20's they're off trying to make their own living and not having mom and dad pay for new snowboards and lift tickets. Here's a link to my source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=fUuO7Ctn7KCYluZklq7XzQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cWc


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 3, 2013)

dlague said:


> Lets face it* there is a whole lot more ski porn out there made by the bigger name production companies like WM, TGR and Sherpas.  Kids see that!*



Disagree.

The media responds to the culture.  When snowboarding was very popular, WM movies got to the point where it was about 50:50 skiing and snowboarding.  This years WM movie has almost zero snowboarding.   The "cool kids" are skiing now, and the films react to that.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The media responds to the culture.  When snowboarding was very popular, WM movies got to the point where it was about 50:50 skiing and snowboarding.  This years WM movie has almost zero snowboarding.   The "cool kids" are skiing now, and the films react to that.



In all fairness both reflect each other to a certain extent.


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## dlague (Dec 3, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The media responds to the culture.  When snowboarding was very popular, WM movies got to the point where it was about 50:50 skiing and snowboarding.  This years WM movie has almost zero snowboarding.   The "cool kids" are skiing now, and the films react to that.



Thanks - to my point!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 3, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> In all fairness *both reflect each other to a certain extent*.



Absolutely, but I think it goes far more in one direction than the other.

  I dont believe the average person is a helpless lemming, powerless against the pulls of media.  Though to play Devil's Advocate, you could make the logical argument that the young people in question are far more likely to fall prey to "lemming behavior" than adults are.


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## Cannonball (Dec 4, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The media responds to the culture.  When snowboarding was very popular, WM movies got to the point where it was about 50:50 skiing and snowboarding.  This years WM movie has almost zero snowboarding.   The "cool kids" are skiing now, and the films react to that.



I think this in true to some extent. But there is another component to consider when talking about Warren Miller (and other) movies.  These movies are less "art" or "media" and are much more in the category of advertisements.  Very heavy product placement and corporate logos abound.  The locations are usually paid for by the resorts or tourism bureaus.  And the equipment and athletes represent specific companies that are funding the film.  When I look at the poster for this year's WM movie I see the following sponsors: Kastle skis, Icelantic skis, and K2 skis among other things.  But I don't see a single snowboard manufacturer sponsoring the movie.  

So perhaps the recent rise in skiing vs snowboarding is partly result of a smart, focused, aggressive marketing effort on the part of ski companies in repose to the declines they saw awhile back.  It will be interesting to see if this dip in snowboarding results in a similar response from snowboard manufacturers and if that will swing things around again in a few years.


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## Abubob (Dec 4, 2013)

“Parents in this town see that the twin tips still have the graphics and the baggy clothes, but they ﬁgure that at least their kids are not going over to boarding,”

That made me laugh. They can wear the pants around their knees and smoke weed but God forbid they should snowboard!


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## Cannonball (Dec 4, 2013)

Abubob said:


> “Parents in this town see that the twin tips still have the graphics and the baggy clothes, but they ﬁgure that at least their kids are not going over to boarding,”
> 
> That made me laugh. They can wear the pants around their knees and smoke weed but God forbid they should snowboard!



I know right!?  But you have to really know Duxbury to understand a comment like that.  Let me give you one example of a family I know very well....  They moved to town by buying a $900k house.They justified the move and cost by pointing to the "good schools". They then took their 2 kids out of the school and put them in a private elementary school at $30k/year each.  The kids didn't like the private school after the first month. So even though they had pre-paid for 2 years, they put them back in the public school.  

Appearances are everything to these folks, so the quote is completely believable to me.  And it's why I don't buy this shop as representative of the industry.


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## Puck it (Dec 4, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> I know right!?  But you have to really know Duxbury to understand a comment like that.  Let me give you one example of a family I know very well....  They moved to town by buying a $900k house.They justified the move and cost by pointing to the "good schools". They then took their 2 kids out of the school and put them in a private elementary school at $30k/year each.  The kids didn't like the private school after the first month. So even though they had pre-paid for 2 years, they put them back in the public school.
> 
> Appearances are everything to these folks, so the quote is completely believable to me.  And it's why I don't buy this shop as representative of the industry.




Hey, I live in Wilmington not Duxbury. Just kidding.  I own one such child we'll adult now 22 yrs. old switch from boarding to skiing in high school. But the pants are still around the knees. Not quite.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2013)

Abubob said:


> “Parents in this town see that the twin tips still have the graphics and the baggy clothes, but they ﬁgure that at least their kids are not going over to boarding,”
> 
> That made me laugh. They can wear the pants around their knees and smoke weed but God forbid they should snowboard!



This kind of attitude, demonstrated by that quote from the Globe, is why I did not stay too long in Massachusetts. It's kind of like the folks who tell me that they believe in civil rights, etc. and then tell me in the same breath that their kid can't play sports teams from the towns with lots of black kids because those teams are "oh so rough." This kind of two-faced lying just irritates me.


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## dmc (Dec 4, 2013)

You guys think that Ski videos are the only thing out there?
And snowboard videos aren't popular?

TGR rider Jeremy Jones CRUSHES!!!!

http://www.windwardboardshop.com/sessions/the-best-2013-snowboard-videos/


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 5, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> This kind of attitude, demonstrated by that quote from the Globe, is why I did not stay too long in Massachusetts. *It's kind of like the folks who tell me that they believe in civil rights, etc. and then tell me in the same breath that their kid can't play sports teams from the towns with lots of black kids because those teams are "oh so rough."* This kind of two-faced lying just irritates me.



That actually happened?  

I'm more annoyed at the, "parents are raising pansies" aspect of that tale than any perceived Civil Rights angle.


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## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> That actually happened?
> 
> I'm more annoyed at the, "parents are raising pansies" aspect of that tale than any perceived Civil Rights angle.



Some parents of kids on my son's soccer team when we were told of a tournament they were playing in actually said "we do not want to play in that tournament we'll get beat". They all held their kid out of tournament and my sons team won it. Maybe they shouldn't be on the team with that loser mentality!!!


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## Cannonball (Dec 5, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm more annoyed at the, "parents are raising pansies" aspect of that tale than any perceived Civil Rights angle.



Exactly!  Same could be said about wanting your kids to ski instead of snowboard :wink:


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## twinplanx (Dec 5, 2013)

dmc said:


> You guys think that Ski videos are the only thing out there?
> And snowboard videos aren't popular?
> 
> TGR rider Jeremy Jones CRUSHES!!!!
> ...



Can't we all just get along? 
I really don't understand why there seems to be segregation in ski/snowboard videos. This does not seem to me to be an accurate representation of what I see on the hills. OK I guess no one wants to watch a video of a bunch of shmos running amok around there local ski hill.  But for the most part I think everyone does ride the lift and play together nicely. Does that change when you start jet setting around the world and take the heli to your favorite peak? Idk, stupid media... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## witch hobble (Dec 5, 2013)

I knew we could work the civil rights aspect in to this.  Surprised it took 8 pages.:wink:

Terry Kidwell = Rosa Parks


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## cbackman (Dec 5, 2013)

Most of the new snowboard gear I have bought has been online and not at a local ski shop. Think they need to account for how many snowboard purchases are being made online versus in store, I tend to find much more selection and deals online


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## twinplanx (Dec 5, 2013)

witch hobble said:


> I knew we could work the civil rights aspect in to this.  Surprised it took 8 pages.:wink:
> 
> Terry Kidwell = Rosa Parks



It was a Rodney King reference actually... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Some parents of kids on my son's soccer team when we were told of a tournament they were playing in actually said "we do not want to play in that tournament we'll get beat". They all held their kid out of tournament and my sons team won it. Maybe they shouldn't be on the team with that loser mentality!!!



I've heard that one too.  

My point was not to insert civil rights but to point out the stupidity of the comment in the article about kids wearing clothes and looking like snowboarders but skiing.  It was a really stupid comment...especially coming out of the mouth of a retail manager who sells at least some snowboard gear.


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## C-Rex (Dec 5, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Can't we all just get along?
> I really don't understand why there seems to be segregation in ski/snowboard videos. This does not seem to me to be an accurate representation of what I see on the hills. OK I guess no one wants to watch a video of a bunch of shmos running amok around there local ski hill. But for the most part I think everyone does ride the lift and play together nicely. Does that change when you start jet setting around the world and take the heli to your favorite peak? Idk, stupid media...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



I hear you, but I gotta say, no matter how out going and friendly I try to be when on the lift or hanging with skiers, I often get this vibe that I have to say something to gain their respect before they'll talk to me.  Most of the time they will not initiate a conversation.  I almost always have to be the first to say hello and ask how their day is going.  It does suck that so many boarders give us all a bad name, especially when in reality a D-bag is a D-bag, and a lot of them ski as well. Skiers need to realize that a lot of our attitude toward skiers comes from their attitude toward us.  It's not like we were welcomed with open arms when the sport was new.  In the end, respect gets respect.  Ski or ride well, and with common courtesy, be friendly, and people will be surprised at how far it goes to make the whole experience better.


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## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> I hear you, but I gotta say, no matter how out going and friendly I try to be when on the lift or hanging with skiers, I often get this vibe that I have to say something to gain their respect before they'll talk to me.  Most of the time they will not initiate a conversation.  I almost always have to be the first to say hello and ask how their day is going.  It does suck that so many boarders give us all a bad name, especially when in reality a D-bag is a D-bag, and a lot of them ski as well. Skiers need to realize that a lot of our attitude toward skiers comes from their attitude toward us.  It's not like we were welcomed with open arms when the sport was new.  In the end, respect gets respect.  Ski or ride well, and with common courtesy, be friendly, and people will be surprised at how far it goes to make the whole experience better.



Maybe its that jacket? :lol:


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## C-Rex (Dec 5, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe its that jacket? :lol:



Yeah...that has occurred to me...But I REALLY like it!  It's Gore Tex, fits perfect and it makes me really easy to find!  F*** me for being different, right?!  :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2013)

C-Rex said:


> I hear you, but I gotta say, no matter how out going and friendly I try to be when on the lift or hanging with skiers, I often get this vibe that I have to say something to gain their respect before they'll talk to me.  Most of the time they will not initiate a conversation.  I almost always have to be the first to say hello and ask how their day is going.  It does suck that so many boarders give us all a bad name, especially when in reality a D-bag is a D-bag, and a lot of them ski as well. Skiers need to realize that a lot of our attitude toward skiers comes from their attitude toward us.  It's not like we were welcomed with open arms when the sport was new.  In the end, respect gets respect.  Ski or ride well, and with common courtesy, be friendly, and people will be surprised at how far it goes to make the whole experience better.



Agree with the "D-bags are D-bags" comment.  They exist in all walks of life.


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## quiglam1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Hope that diesn't mean the price of skis will increase.


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## dmc (Dec 5, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe its that jacket? :lol:



goodone...


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## dmc (Dec 5, 2013)

My point is - snowboarding is still popular and thriving..  Maybe not the way it used to but everythings changing and fluid these days..
I bought my first new board in a few years this year...  Frankly I wanted all the rocker bs to settle down..    Ended up with a Never Summer with rocker underfoot...  Pretty sick.  

I love movies with a mix of riders skiers and telemarkers.   but they are few and far between..
I like it all... wtf... why not...?


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## Boston Bulldog (Dec 5, 2013)

This thread winded through areas rarely touched in a ski forum! lol


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## twinplanx (Dec 5, 2013)

dmc said:


> I love movies with a mix of riders skiers and telemarkers.   but they are few and far between..
> I like it all... wtf... why not...?



I wish this type of movie was more the norm, instead of the exception... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Some parents of kids on my son's soccer team when we were told of a tournament they were playing in actually said "we do not want to play in that tournament we'll get beat".



Same parents that go for the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.  I believe I am of the age that I was one of the first kids to experience this phenomena.  I played on a team that was probably something like 5th place in an 8 team league, and I can vividly remember being confused.  Nowadays, kids probably EXPECT a trophy for a 5th (or last) place finish.


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## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Same parents that go for the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.  I believe I am of the age that I was one of the first kids to experience this phenomena.  I played on a team that was probably something like 5th place in an 8 team league, and I can vividly remember being confused.  Nowadays, kids probably EXPECT a trophy for a 5th (or last) place finish.



I run the baseball program in my town and we only give out trophies for 1st and 2nd place that is it. I think it is actually turning back in the other direction now where people were getting frustrated with the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.


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