# Base Layers and Thermo Underwear



## ski9 (Sep 29, 2008)

One of the top ASRA racers just launched a new company which is making great base layers and thermo-insulating underwear at killer prices:

http://www.bergwear.com/

Def worth a look....


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## billski (Sep 29, 2008)

ski9 said:


> One of the top ASRA racers just launched a new company which is making great base layers and thermo-insulating underwear at killer prices:
> 
> http://www.bergwear.com/
> 
> Def worth a look....



but is it any good?  says who?


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## wa-loaf (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm into Icebreaker and other merino wool base layers these days. More comfort, no static, no stink, no oil (well less, still gotta transport the stuff).


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## RootDKJ (Sep 29, 2008)

They only take Paypal (who I don't trust).


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## wa-loaf (Sep 29, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> They only take Paypal (who I don't trust).



Just don't keep a big balance with them. Revolution money is competitor that's growing if you want an alternative.


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## dl (Sep 29, 2008)

i don't see any real differentiator with this line. i'm scratching my head as to why they felt this was a market segment that presented any sort of opportunity. with large players like under armour coming after this business, you better have something special or different in order to get attention (i.e. CWX).


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## ski9 (Sep 29, 2008)

billski said:


> but is it any good?  says who?



Twenty plus years as an international buyer for a Manhattan clothing company and skis a 1.35 ASRA handicap...I haven't seen or talked with him since he launched this project, but I assume he'll be collecting testimonials and other feedback.


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## ski9 (Sep 29, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> They only take Paypal (who I don't trust).



I'm just curious when someone says that...I often ask them if they hand their credit card to 16 year old waiters with more comfort than using PayPal's 128 bit encryption?

But, hey, to each his own...


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## RootDKJ (Sep 29, 2008)

ski9 said:


> I'm just curious when someone says that...I often ask them if they hand their credit card to 16 year old waiters with more comfort than using PayPal's 128 bit encryption?
> 
> But, hey, to each his own...



nope, I don't eat out


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## ski9 (Sep 29, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> nope, I don't eat out



It's cool if you don't have a credit card. Nobody judges about something like that. It's not that I'm a PayPal groupie, but I buy a ton of gear on eBay and PayPal sure makes things simple. And it has the same encryption level as my bank...


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## ski9 (Sep 29, 2008)

dl said:


> i don't see any real differentiator with this line. i'm scratching my head as to why they felt this was a market segment that presented any sort of opportunity. with large players like under armour coming after this business, you better have something special or different in order to get attention (i.e. CWX).



From reliableracing.com:

Under Armour Cold Gear Mock Men's
Item: 26362
Price: $49.95 

Under Armour Cold Gear Legging Men's
Item: 26363
Price: $49.95 

I have both and they rock. Spending over $200 every couple of years for my wife and I sorta sucks, though.


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## BergWear (Oct 4, 2008)

Our products have been produced adhering to the highest standards in apparel manufacturing. In addition we are inspecting each and every piece before sending it out to our customers.

The fabric we use has been subjected to rigorous lab testing and been rated acceptable and significant in regards to its properties. 

While we are not posting any testimonial on our web page, we have so far received only positive replies form satisfied customers.

There is a public comment on John Gaddy's blog which you can ready here: http://featofstrength.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html. He describes his experience training in the gear on August 24. John Gaddy is a former martial arts world champion who will attempt to break the Guiness World record in rope jumping to benefit the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC).


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## BergWear (Oct 4, 2008)

We feel there is a need to offer a product that functions and performs similiar, but at a better price level. Not everyone is willing or able to spend the price some of the established name brands charge for comparable items.


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## BergWear (Oct 4, 2008)

We aplogize for the limited payment options available. In addition to PayPal we also offer check payment. We are still a startup and focused on keeping the expenses down to offer the best pricing we can. Using a merchant account to allow the convenience of Amex, Master or Visa card checkout would just add on to that. Aside from that PayPal accepts most major credit cards for payment.


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## riverc0il (Oct 5, 2008)

ski9 said:


> Twenty plus years as an international buyer for a Manhattan clothing company and skis a 1.35 ASRA handicap...I haven't seen or talked with him since he launched this project, but I assume he'll be collecting testimonials and other feedback.


dl's point about this being a fully saturated market with a huge name (UA) eating up market share and intensifying the competition still stands though. This guy could be the best business man in the world with a superior product, but he is chasing a market with no opportunity in the low and mid segments. Even the upper end is pretty well tapped. If it isn't new tech that is far superior, its probably going to be a rough start to his business regardless of quality.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 5, 2008)

ski9 said:


> It's cool if you don't have a credit card. Nobody judges about something like that. It's not that I'm a PayPal groupie, but I buy a ton of gear on eBay and PayPal sure makes things simple. And it has the same encryption level as my bank...



That's hardly the case.  It's more along the lines that I'm too cheap and a better cook then most.


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## Moe Ghoul (Oct 5, 2008)

He's probably hoping that the product has enough appeal to take some market share and get gobbled up by a bigger name. It's a great way to make a bundle and retire to do important things like ski.


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## severine (Oct 6, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Just don't keep a big balance with them. Revolution money is competitor that's growing if you want an alternative.


I don't consider Revolution Money Exchange to be any better.  When I set my account up with them, they were supposed to do the 2 deposits to verify the linked bank account.  They only did one and I've spent months now trying to get an answer as to how to fix this...and I never get a response to my emails.  I'm not really interested enough in RME to bother with calling them.  But I figure if they won't email you back (and their site is the one that has a button to email them with problems, so it's not like I had to try hard to contact them in that manner) then how reliably are they running their business in general?  I'd rather not find out.


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## ski9 (Oct 6, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> dl's point about this being a fully saturated market with a huge name (UA) eating up market share and intensifying the competition still stands though. This guy could be the best business man in the world with a superior product, but he is chasing a market with no opportunity in the low and mid segments. Even the upper end is pretty well tapped. If it isn't new tech that is far superior, its probably going to be a rough start to his business regardless of quality.



It's funny how we so brainwashed...me included. Example: I keep links for eBay stuff. One is search results for "racing" in the downhill skiing category; the other is for "soccer". In the soccer search, there are thousands of team jerseys, most of which originate in Hong Kong or Thailand. Including shipping, they generally sell for about 40% of what you can buy them for at Dick's, or other US retail outlets. But I used to scoff at knock off crap from Hong Kong until I bought a Manchester United jersey for $28 (delivered) and compared it to my "official" Umbro version I'd had for years from Dick's (it cost around $85).

And what do you know...same thread count, same patches, same stitching, same everything. 

Of course there are knock off's and rip-off's coming out of these countries...Dick's and other big US retailers sometimes buy those, too...and I understand that the authentic team jerseys have an even greater level of hand stitching and overall quality than both eBay's Hong Kong stuff and Dick's.

Bought in America is usually a very different thing than 'made in America'. 

I guess the bottom line is that even though I outfit my family with the best possible gear, I don't necessarily choose the highest priced stuff hanging in American stores as some sort of guarantee for quality and value. 

Under Armour, after all, was just some start-up by an ex-Maryland football player a little over a decade ago. Wasn't the market "completely saturated" in 1996? And Under Armour recently announced it was going the way of Nike and shifting much of its manufacturing to a gigantic plant in.....


China.


BTW, here's the key to this business practice: 童工

(That's Chinese for "child labor".}


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm getting a pair..


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## Mildcat (Oct 12, 2008)

Anybody use CW-X? I bought some Insulator Zip-t's from SAC. When I was putting it on I thought it was going to be really tight but once it was on it stretched and moved so well. There were no points where it would bind or snag. Totally comfortable. Holds everything in place too so it looks like I'm actually in good shape. :grin: I can't wait to see how it feels on the hill.


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## bvibert (Oct 14, 2008)

Mildcat said:


> Anybody use CW-X? I bought some Insulator Zip-t's from SAC. When I was putting it on I thought it was going to be really tight but once it was on it stretched and moved so well. There were no points where it would bind or snag. Totally comfortable. Holds everything in place too so it looks like I'm actually in good shape. :grin: I can't wait to see how it feels on the hill.



I just got mine from SAC (or one of those sites) last night.  I thought the same as you, seemed like it was going to be too tight.  It looked more like a child's size.  It definitely holds everything in and seemed comfy.  I'll be buying more if I can find a deal on them.


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## gmcunni (Oct 14, 2008)

i picked up a pair of medium weight thermo pants at costco over the weekend, paradox was the brand i think.  $20.


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## o3jeff (Oct 14, 2008)

gmcunni said:


> i picked up a pair of medium weight thermo pants at costco over the weekend, paradox was the brand i think.  $20.



I picked up the top there, seems like they are good quality.


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## Mildcat (Oct 15, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I just got mine from SAC (or one of those sites) last night.  I thought the same as you, seemed like it was going to be too tight.  It looked more like a child's size.  It definitely holds everything in and seemed comfy.  I'll be buying more if I can find a deal on them.



Ha, we probably bought them at the same time because mine came in Monday too. I actually bought one on SAC a couple of months ago and liked it so much I bought two more when I saw them on Tramdock. The thumb loops are a nice touch too. I've been waiting for the bottoms but haven't seen them in a while.


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## severine (Oct 15, 2008)

Mildcat said:


> Ha, we probably bought them at the same time because mine came in Monday too. I actually bought one on SAC a couple of months ago and liked it so much I bought two more when I saw them on Tramdock. The thumb loops are a nice touch too. I've been waiting for the bottoms but haven't seen them in a while.


I'm waiting on the 3/4 length bottoms as well.  The Divas have rave reviews for the bottoms really helping with muscle fatigue on the slopes.

ETA: That said, this year I invested in Helly Hansen prowool that was on tramdock/SAC.  Haven't tested them out skiing yet, but the top (I didn't have the bottom yet) worked great while camping this past weekend in cold temps overnight.


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## Warp Daddy (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm really happy with Under Armor and Rossignol  technical underlayers --super lite , super wicking and warm . 

One of my favs is from EMS. It's a technical gear top that  also covers your hand with a opening for the thumb  -- really nice on a cold day if you have to take your gloves off for some reason  -- your covered


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## Warp Daddy (Oct 15, 2008)

severine said:


> I'm waiting on the 3/4 length bottoms as well.  The Divas have rave reviews for the bottoms really helping with muscle fatigue on the slopes.



 Yeah they are nice i got them( Rossignol Tech series)  last season --


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## bvibert (Oct 15, 2008)

Mildcat said:


> Ha, we probably bought them at the same time because mine came in Monday too. I actually bought one on SAC a couple of months ago and liked it so much I bought two more when I saw them on Tramdock. The thumb loops are a nice touch too. I've been waiting for the bottoms but haven't seen them in a while.





Warp Daddy said:


> One of my favs is from EMS. It's a technical gear top that  also covers your hand with a opening for the thumb  -- really nice on a cold day if you have to take your gloves off for some reason  -- your covered



I love the thumb loops!  I've passed up many a good looking base layer because they didn't have them.  My favorite top for the last few seasons is one from EMS.  The no longer make it, but the material is very similar to the CW-X top I just got.  I wore it every time it was clean and sometimes when it wasn't.  That's why I'm so psyched about the CW-X top, I may have finally found a replacement for my favorite (which is a little on the big side now anyway).  I'll be looking for them to come up on SAC again.


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## Mildcat (Oct 16, 2008)

severine said:


> I'm waiting on the 3/4 length bottoms as well.  The Divas have rave reviews for the bottoms really helping with muscle fatigue on the slopes.
> 
> ETA: That said, this year I invested in Helly Hansen prowool that was on tramdock/SAC.  Haven't tested them out skiing yet, but the top (I didn't have the bottom yet) worked great while camping this past weekend in cold temps overnight.



Yeah I thought the 3/4's looked pretty cool too. Wouldn't have to bunch up the pant leg to keep it out of my boots.


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## severine (Oct 16, 2008)

Mildcat said:


> Yeah I thought the 3/4's looked pretty cool too. Wouldn't have to bunch up the pant leg to keep it out of my boots.


Brian keeps telling me that others just cut the bottoms of the pants off but I like the cuffs.

That said, I tried on the Helly Hansen prowool bottoms last night... VERY nice!


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## gmcunni (Oct 16, 2008)

severine said:


> Brian keeps telling me that others just cut the bottoms of the pants off but I like the cuffs.



i did that!  i cut off just below the knee, removed the cuff and sewed it back on.


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## severine (Oct 16, 2008)

gmcunni said:


> i did that!  i cut off just below the knee, removed the cuff and sewed it back on.


You must be a better seamstress than I am.


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## bvibert (Oct 16, 2008)

gmcunni said:


> i did that!  i cut off just below the knee, removed the cuff and sewed it back on.





severine said:


> You must be a better seamstress than I am.



I would just use staples, that should work ok...


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## billski (Oct 16, 2008)

severine said:


> Brian keeps telling me that others just cut the bottoms of the pants off but I like the cuffs.



I too cut the full lengths pants (I think mine are hot tamales or someting like that -fleece type) off at boot-height.  When I was looking to buy, they were either out of stock or ridiculously expensive so that's what motivated me to cut.    They haven't fallen apart at the cut.  I did no hemming (no time/skill/patience/matter)
I should have done it year ago.  It is so much more comfortable and easier dressing.  Slow learner here... :dunce:


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## thetrailboss (Oct 16, 2008)

Nice.  I usually use a mix of stuff.  Was Patagonia for a while...but their bottoms did not last well...so now I use EMS Bergelene Bottoms (cheaper) and Patagonia, etc tops.  My experience has been that the tops work well and last forever, but that I wear through bottoms from all the skiing. I have also tried the Duotherm bottoms, which I got for $10 a pair at TJ Maxx last year.  They are warm and work well.  I have a couple LL Bean tops...including one fleece top that is SO warm.


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## Mildcat (Oct 16, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I would just use staples, that should work ok...



What? No duct tape? :idea:


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## bvibert (Oct 16, 2008)

Mildcat said:


> What? No duct tape? :idea:



I thought that went without saying, the duct tape goes over the staples.


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## riverc0il (Oct 16, 2008)

I never thought of cutting the bottom 1/4 off long underwear, holy crap that is an idea I should have thought of a long time ago. Having legs go down below my ankles and having to pull up and stretch the cuff around my calfs to get my ski socks on and the long underwear above the boot is a freaking pain in the butt. 3/4 legs would be a dream. Surprised more skiing long underwear doesn't capitalize on that idea.

For base layers... it is one of the few categories of gear that I am brand conscious on. I went through a lot of crap that just didn't work for me or only worked okay. Finally decided to pay for the more expensive stuff and man it was so worth it. Use Patagonia Capilene crews for base layers and SmartWool Ultra Lights for socks. My warmth and perspiration needs were improved night and day immediately upon deciding to go with better quality stuff. Despite the high price tag, well worth it. This is one area of equipment where folks should not skimp.

Good point regarding UA coming out of no where to take a commanding lead in the market place. I am not sure what UA's early business plan is... but they seem to have capitalized on warm weather base layers across a lot of sports before I started seeing UA cold weather base layers becoming popular. I think BergWear will have an uphill battle as a winter wear specialty. But so much depends upon a good business plan, distribution channels, marketing, and image. Even in a saturated market place, any one can jump in and claim a piece of the pie if they do things right.


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## billski (Oct 16, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I never thought of cutting the bottom 1/4 off long underwear, holy crap that is an idea I should have thought of a long time ago.



STEVE!  Your kidding, right?  
I thought if anyone had beentheredonethat, it was you!
I'm shocked!


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## riverc0il (Oct 16, 2008)

billski said:


> STEVE!  Your kidding, right?
> I thought if anyone had beentheredonethat, it was you!
> I'm shocked!


LOL!!!

I am hardly the do it yourself-er. My gear buying preference is I will pay a tad more and get gear that works right out of the box with as little tweaking as possible. I spend every day tweaking systems, procedures, operations, staffing, computers, software, etc. I ain't got the brains left to go home and figure out how to make sub-performing gear excel. I paid good money... it should Just Work(tm).


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## Mildcat (Oct 17, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> For base layers... it is one of the few categories of gear that I am brand conscious on. I went through a lot of crap that just didn't work for me or only worked okay. Finally decided to pay for the more expensive stuff and man it was so worth it. Use Patagonia Capilene crews for base layers and SmartWool Ultra Lights for socks. My warmth and perspiration needs were improved night and day immediately upon deciding to go with better quality stuff. Despite the high price tag, well worth it. This is one area of equipment where folks should not skimp.



Do you need the brand names because you ski bc? I ski strictly lift served and sweat more than anyone you've ever met in your life and I find cheaper brands keep me warm. The only exception for me is socks. For me the expensive brands are all about the bells and whistles. Like the CW-X with the fabric that holds everything in place, stretches and moves well, and thumb loops. 

If I tried skinning up a mt I'd probably die of a heart attack before I even broke a sweat.


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## riverc0il (Oct 17, 2008)

It's not that cheaper products didn't work... they just didn't work half as well. So I enjoy better base layers for lift serviced and for earning turns... but performance base layers are more critical for turn earning. You never want to be wet and cold when there isn't a lodge to get to down any trail or if getting wet and cold will make you need to stop the trek and head back to the car. Its such an important article of clothing, I say why skimp?


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## Edd (Nov 18, 2008)

Anyone bought this stuff yet?  Opinions?


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## bigbog (Nov 18, 2008)

*...*



Mildcat said:


> Yeah I thought the 3/4's looked pretty cool too. Wouldn't have to bunch up the pant leg to keep it out of my boots.



2+


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