# Mass market gas price hysteria- $12 a gallon gas



## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Last nite 2 separate talking heads on National news NBC and CBS  mention gas could increase to 12 bucks a gallon in the foreseeable future , while CBS stated $ 6 BY end of the summer !

This hysteria feeds overly nervous individuals and  so  called professionals and is the driving force in the self - fulfilling prophesy called the Stock Market . Moreover the China Syndrome is only but one part of teh problem -- Not the driving force 

It seems a major DOMESTIC culprit/ University development investment portfolios  are also feeding this frenzy ! 

I'm  venting here but ,if we can't ratchet up our technological intellect and the intellectual and financial  capital  to rationally and systematicall deliver BETTER results on alternatives  - it may be time to seriously consider nationalizing the Greed hog oil corps  C'mon guys alternatives are no longer a debate its time  @ $6 /gal to FIND A SOLUTION NOW

WE NEED REAL LEADERSHIP AND SOON or we suffer second tier status within a generation


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

Based on the price of a barrel of Oil the price of gas should be $6 per gallon.  My mileage reimbursement at work just went up from 36 cents per mile to 48.5 cents per mile.  With $6-7 a gallon gas prices by ski season..lift lines are going to be much shorter.  I know we're not supposed to discuss politics..but the oil companies and the US government work together for the best interest of themselves..not the US people..


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

[..lift lines are going to be much shorter.  I know we're not supposed to discuss politics..but the oil companies and the US government work together for the best interest of themselves..not the US people..[/QUOTE]


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

I like the explanation of how the oil execs need all those profits for oil exploration. If they really were spending that much money on oil exploration, they wouldn't have those huge ass profits. :smash:


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Sorry hit the damn button too quick --  GSS ur right on both statements above .

 On a larger level several sectors of the economy may be crippled and further job loss will accellerate until this gets solved . Skiing is discretionery spending at that usually is the first thing cut during hard times s. Most of the folks here are young have not really experienced HARD times and so have difficulty IMAGINING that it could happen . trust me its on the radar screen as we speak


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

Nationalizing would help, but only so much.  I read an article that if all of the profits of Exxon and Shell would be returned to consumers, the price difference would be about forty cents.  I don't know the extent of all of the oil giants, but if they were all to kick back those funds, we're talking maybe a buck?  A buck would be GREAT at current prices.  A buck at $6?  not so much of an impact.

It's really the commodity betting that is the problem as you said.  Not only on gas, but also food prices. 

Scary times right now.  If gas gets to $6-$7, I'll probably be out of a job as my business is so dependent on the transportation of goods and such increases would price us out of the market in everywhere but NYC.

One can only hope the dollar rebounds.  That to me seems like what would help the most right now.  Thank you Dubya for the 9 trillion dollar debt, which makes the dollar look pitiful in the eyes of other nations around the world.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

....and exactly why are the Oil companies receiving 18 billion in tax breaks?  that's my question


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Sorry hit the damn button too quick --  GSS ur right on both statements above .
> 
> On a larger level several sectors of the economy may be crippled and further job loss will accellerate until this gets solved . Skiing is discretionery spending at that usually is the first thing cut during hard times s. Most of the folks here are young have not really experienced HARD times and so have difficulty IMAGINING that it could happen . trust me its on the radar screen as we speak



Yup at $6+ a gallon I may not be willing to drive up to VT and will be skiing a lot closer to home. $57 to fill up our little 16 gal tank yesterday. At 6 bucks that's going to be $100+.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

At least another 2-3 years of major pain and stagflation. No change in washington means declining dollar. prolly another 30%


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> With $6-7 a gallon gas prices by ski season..lift lines are going to be much shorter.


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## ed-drum (May 22, 2008)

The people who watch the Bilderberg group said they were going to do this last year. It's going to get a lot worse. It's time for another tea party. Ed.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Thats why average citizens like us have to turn up the HEAT on our representatives  . WE need to get off our butts and make our voices HEARD . Mediocrity can NO longer be tolerated

 As James Otis  said over 200 yrs ago  ---------------------Taxation without representation is tyranny


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

andyzee said:


>



That's not a good thing. :smash:

Shorter lift lines means bad business for the ski industry which equals more places on NELSAP and shorter seasons. :roll:


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That's not a good thing. :smash:
> 
> Shorter lift lines means bad business for the ski industry which equals more places on NELSAP and shorter seasons. :roll:


 
Face facts, one way or the other we are doomed, doomed I tell you. The END IS NEAR! So just make the best of it, put you head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That's not a good thing. :smash:
> 
> Shorter lift lines means bad business for the ski industry which equals more places on NELSAP and shorter seasons. :roll:



BINGO !! point is finally made 

The ski industry already suffering from decline will face accellerated decline and most folks will FEEL  REAL economic pain for FIRST time in their lives.  Think Domino effect as far as ANY discretionery spending then think on industries thatDEPEND on discretionery spending -- it gets UGLY real quick 

alternative -- get out your XC or Tele skis


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

The bigger resorts will do fine and border states as well, you'll just hear more mandarin, russian,  european and french canadian


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

I think that America has TALENT  and  resources to BEAT THIS PROBLEM 

 Do we have the WILL?   --- I think intellectually yes but operationally no at this point .  we need to GET CRACKIN --no more excuses ,  get  movin , set some serious national goals , hold folks feet to the fire for results and the problem will be solved   

America still for all our issues is the greatest place in the  world . We can beat this thing


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> I think that America has TALENT and resources to BEAT THIS PROBLEM
> 
> Do we have the WILL? --- I think intellectually yes but operationally no at this point . we need to GET CRACKIN --no more excuses , get movin , set some serious national goals , hold folks feet to the fire for results and the problem will be solved
> 
> America still for all our issues is the greatest place in the world . We can beat this thing


 

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! 

(Sorry, goofy mood today :lol


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> I think that America has TALENT  and  resources to BEAT THIS PROBLEM
> 
> Do we have the WILL?   --- I think intellectually yes but operationally no at this point .  we need to GET CRACKIN --no more excuses ,  get  movin , set some serious national goals , hold folks feet to the fire for results and the problem will be solved
> 
> America still for all our issues is the greatest place in the  world . We can beat this thing



That's the silver lining. High energy prices will make a lot of alternate energy sources much more affordable and spur a lot more development in that area.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
> 
> (Sorry, goofy mood today :lol



  Zeemeister : I really appreciate your humor !I

ts really  good to have a little sunshine when the clouds of reality  seem really dark! 


 As an economist by trade ( yep a damn  dismal scientistI) 'm ruminating because i care , especially about my family , grandkids and guys like you ALL here who have alot of life yet to live .

Me --hell i'm 65 , married to a great woman , comfortable and can prolly rideout any of this crap  

It just PAINS me to see us in this mess when i KNOW damn well as an educator WE HAVE THE ABILITY to solve it 

Andy thanks for keepin this Heavy topic  lite  my friend

WARP


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

I don't think things will get affordable, just profitable.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

What about laws that encourage conservation to bring our energy demand way down?

Re-establishing a national 55mph speed limit?  This would suck for most.  I spend 6 hours a day driving for work, much of it on the highway going 70-75.  It would be a inconvenience for me to slow down, but if it meant 10% lower prices at the pump, I'd do it.

Outlaw idling of vehicles.  Again it would be inconvenience for me as I need the engine to power my laptop while I'm doing work on the road side, but I would I would do it.

Mandating bottle bills in ALL states for recycling.  Currently only 11 states have bottle bills.  This is INSANE when you it costs 5% the energy to produce an aluminum can from recycled material compared to producing a new one.

Alternative energy resources aside, there is a lot that can be done with relative easy that will bring our demand down and hence the price.


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

Oil company profit margins are around 8%. That doesn't qualify as greed in my book. But I've covered that.

I hope we see $6 gas. At that level, a whole host of alternatives become viable NOW, with fairly rapid price declines once infrastructure is up and running.

Car companies seem to me to be the biggest holdup. If they could agree on a common format for things like hydrogen hookups or electric plugs, a whole lot of things could move forward.


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Oil company profit margins are around 8%. That doesn't qualify as greed in my book. But I've covered that.
> 
> I hope we see $6 gas. At that level, a whole host of alternatives become viable NOW, with fairly rapid price declines once infrastructure is up and running.
> 
> Car companies seem to me to be the biggest holdup. If they could agree on a common format for things like hydrogen hookups or electric plugs, a whole lot of things could move forward.


 
On a serious note, I agree with ctenidae (even though she made fun of my pants). This has happened in the past. In the 70s there were long gas lines and price increase due to a "gas shortage". This forced people to become more conservative and by smaller cars. Suddenly the gas shortage went away.


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> I don't think things will get affordable, just profitable.



Is there a practical difference? If you can't sell an alternative for the same as or less than petroleum, then it's not affordable, and if you try, it's not profitable.


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

andyzee said:


> On a serious note, I agree with ctenidae (even though she made fun of my pants).



I'm not a girl, adn I made fun of your couch, not your pants.

Geez. No repsect around here.


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## tjf67 (May 22, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> What about laws that encourage conservation to bring our energy demand way down?
> 
> Re-establishing a national 55mph speed limit?  This would suck for most.  I spend 6 hours a day driving for work, much of it on the highway going 70-75.  It would be a inconvenience for me to slow down, but if it meant 10% lower prices at the pump, I'd do it.
> 
> ...



We could start with something a little easier like stop drinking bottled water.  30 million gallons to make the bottles not including shipping them around the stuff to the stores.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Scary times right now.  If gas gets to $6-$7, I'll probably be out of a job as my business is so dependent on the transportation of goods and such increases would price us out of the market in everywhere but NYC.
> 
> .




Wow..you really should start looking for a new job...we have fuel surcharges up the Yazoo..for all the granite that is shipped to us...and the delivery truck gets under 10 miles to the gallon @ $5..a gallon for diesel.  We're looking at a 10-15% price increase for 2009..if gas hit $6-7 per gallons compared to a typical 5% price increase..but all of our competition will have to raise prices as well..since they're buying from the same suppliers and using the same trucking companies for freight.


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Outlaw idling of vehicles.  Again it would be inconvenience for me as I need the engine to power my laptop while I'm doing work on the road side, but I would I would do it.



You need one of these:

http://www.xtremepowerinc.com/RemotePower.htm


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> I'm not a girl, adn I made fun of your couch, not your pants.
> 
> *Geez. No repsect around here.[/*quote]
> 
> Exactly :lol:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> The bigger resorts will do fine and border states as well, you'll just hear more mandarin, russian,  european and french canadian




I also think local mountains like Sundown, Blue mountain, and Wachusett could do better because people aren't going to want to drive to Vermont..

I'm just going to keep squirreling away money..err-day..that's the only thing I can do..


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I also think local mountains like Sundown, Blue mountain, and Wachusett could do better because people aren't going to want to drive to Vermont..
> 
> I'm just going to keep squirreling away money..err-day..that's the only thing I can do..



Definitely more domestic travel and keeping it closer to home.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (May 22, 2008)

Less driving = less CO2 = less warming = colder temps = more snow + more manmade snow!! = more people driving to go skiing = more CO2 = warmer temps = rain.  

Terrible, vicious cycle.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow..you really should start looking for a new job...we have fuel surcharges up the Yazoo..for all the granite that is shipped to us...and the delivery truck gets under 10 miles to the gallon @ $5..a gallon for diesel.  We're looking at a 10-15% price increase for 2009..if gas hit $6-7 per gallons compared to a typical 5% price increase..but all of our competition will have to raise prices as well..since they're buying from the same suppliers and using the same trucking companies for freight.



I'm not looking....yet.  With the economic climate we are facing right now, a big part in my decision to move was to be within commuting range of a major metropolitan area should I need to seek alternative employment.

Prices will go up from our competitors too, but eventually these price hikes are going to put many restaurants out of business as they simply won't be able to charge their patrons what they need to to make a profit.  It's a double edge sword as the rising gas prices will crimp consumer spending at restaurants to.  MANY distributors are already starting to go out of business because of this reality.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (May 22, 2008)

Regular unleaded in parts of Europe is up to about $9/gallon (at EUR 1.42/liter).


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Less driving = less CO2 = less warming = colder temps = more snow + more manmade snow!! = more people driving to go skiing = more CO2 = warmer temps = rain.
> 
> Terrible, vicious cycle.



Well less driving in the US..but there's a heck of alot more fuel consumption abroad..part of the reason why even if demand in the US for oil goes down..the price will not drop..

Moe..I see the price for a barrel of oil is down a bit today:lol:and so is gold


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Regular unleaded in parts of Europe is up to about $9/gallon (at EUR 1.42/liter).



That's due to their taxes..which accounts for more than 50% of the cost of fuel in most Western European countries..


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> That's due to their taxes..which accounts for more than 50% of the cost of fuel in most Western European countries..



And explains why they have mass transit that works.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> And explains why they have mass transit that works.



Well over there there are alot of people in a small area...here people are much more spread out as population density is alot less..Are you willing to pay double as much for a gallon of gas for better mass transit?  Are you willing to pay more in federal taxes for universal healthcare...I like the way it is here..totally capitalistic..not socialized.


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## ctenidae (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well over there there are alot of people in a small area...here people are much more spread out as population density is alot less..Are you willing to pay double as much for a gallon of gas for better mass transit?  Are you willing to pay more in federal taxes for universal healthcare...I like the way it is here..totally capitalistic..not socialized.



Your questions are poorly phrased. Should be "Would you pay more for mass transit if it worked?" and "Would you support universal healthcare funded by current insurance premiums?"

Yes, to both of those.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow..you really should start looking for a new job...we have fuel surcharges up the Yazoo..for all the granite that is shipped to us...and the delivery truck gets under 10 miles to the gallon @ $5..a gallon for diesel.  We're looking at a 10-15% price increase for 2009..if gas hit $6-7 per gallons compared to a typical 5% price increase..but all of our competition will have to raise prices as well..since they're buying from the same suppliers and using the same trucking companies for freight.



 Question: 

At what point does the " psychology " of providing a grave monument for a deceased person  in order to assuage the survivor's need for closure  cease to become an economic benefit ? Guess what i'm asking here is  what happened to that kind of business in really tough times-- it seems like heresy to ask but  - i wonder??


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well over there there are alot of people in a small area...here people are much more spread out as population density is alot less..Are you willing to pay double as much for a gallon of gas for better mass transit?  Are you willing to pay more in federal taxes for universal healthcare...I like the way it is here..totally capitalistic..not socialized.



We used to have great public transport in most cities. As a history quiz can you tell me why we don't anymore?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Question:
> 
> At what point does the " psychology " of providing a grave monument for a deceased person  in order to assuage the survivor's need for closure  cease to become an economic benefit ? Guess what i'm asking here is  what happened to that kind of business in really tough times-- it seems like heresy to ask but  - i wonder??




Well in really really tough times like the Great Depression only the wealthy had monuments made...but in a typical recession..like the recession of the early 90s..business remained steady.  The death rate right now is pretty flat..at least until about 2020 when the Baby Boomers start passing away in large numbers.  To combat a flat market..we go after funeral directors to sell for us.  The funeral homes are taking in way less revenue due to the rising cremation rate( currently at 30-35%) so they sell monuments as a source of additional revenue and to provide one stop shopping for the families they serve.  The families I sit with usually feel guilty if they cheap out on a loved one.  For instance if they initially want a Jet Black memorial for a loved one which is more money than a Gray memorial..they'll usually pay extra for the Black memorial because they want to give the best monument for their relatives..unless they are really hard up for money..then they'll go with the lower priced option..Our sales are up a ton so far this year but expenses/fuel/payroll/granite costs/utilities/health insurance are all up as well..so we have to keep pushing for more business.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> We used to have great public transport in most cities. As a history quiz can you tell me why we don't anymore?



Post WWII spoils and advantage that let us live phat for 50 years and an economy/society based on cheap oil.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> We used to have great public transport in most cities. As a history quiz can you tell me why we don't anymore?



Because people moved out to the suburbs???


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Post WWII spoils and advantage that let us live phat for 50 years and an economy/society based on cheap oil.





GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Because people moved out to the suburbs???



No, the car companies paid cities in the 50's to tear up light rail tracks so they could sell more buses and cars.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> No, the car companies paid cities in the 50's to tear up light rail tracks so they could sell more buses and cars.



Only possible with cheap oil.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> No, the car companies paid cities in the 50's to tear up light rail tracks so they could sell more buses and cars.



Wow I didn't know that...the grandfather wrote alot of articles for the historical society about Trolleys..


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well in really really tough times like the Great Depression only the wealthy had monuments made...but in a typical recession..like the recession of the early 90s..business remained steady.  The death rate right now is pretty flat..at least until about 2020 when the Baby Boomers start passing away in large numbers.  To combat a flat market..we go after funeral directors to sell for us.  The funeral homes are taking in way less revenue due to the rising cremation rate( currently at 30-35%) so they sell monuments as a source of additional revenue and to provide one stop shopping for the families they serve.  The families I sit with usually feel guilty if they cheap out on a loved one.  For instance if they initially want a Jet Black memorial for a loved one which is more money than a Gray memorial..they'll usually pay extra for the Black memorial because they want to give the best monument for their relatives..unless they are really hard up for money..then they'll go with the lower priced option..Our sales are up a ton so far this year but expenses/fuel/payroll/granite costs/utilities/health insurance are all up as well..so we have to keep pushing for more business.



Steeze, maybe you can introduce monuments made of recyclced plastic soda bottles. Lighter, cheaper and cheaper to transport. Monuments could make nice little billboards, too, lol, sell advertisement on them!


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well in really really tough times like the Great Depression only the wealthy had monuments made...but in a typical recession..like the recession of the early 90s..business remained steady.  The death rate right now is pretty flat..at least until about 2020 when the Baby Boomers start passing away in large numbers.  To combat a flat market..we go after funeral directors to sell for us.  The funeral homes are taking in way less revenue due to the rising cremation rate( currently at 30-35%) so they sell monuments as a source of additional revenue and to provide one stop shopping for the families they serve.  The families I sit with usually feel guilty if they cheap out on a loved one.  For instance if they initially want a Jet Black memorial for a loved one which is more money than a Gray memorial..they'll usually pay extra for the Black memorial because they want to give the best monument for their relatives..unless they are really hard up for money..then they'll go with the lower priced option..Our sales are up a ton so far this year but expenses/fuel/payroll/granite costs/utilities/health insurance are all up as well..so we have to keep pushing for more business.




Thanks for an interesting response . Had no idea that  rate of creamation was either that advanced and also that cost-effective for the families .


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## ed-drum (May 22, 2008)

During World War 2 they put a carburetor on a Sherman tank that got 60 miles per gallon. The design is still classified. If a tank got that mileage, what would it do on a car? They're screwing everyone. Ed.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Steeze, maybe you can introduce monuments made of recyclced plastic soda bottles. Lighter, cheaper and cheaper to transport. Monuments could make nice little billboards, too, lol, sell advertisement on them!



I"M LIKIN IT MOE  !!!


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> During World War 2 they put a carburetor on a Sherman tank that got 60 miles per gallon. The design is still classified. If a tank got that mileage, what would it do on a car? They're screwing everyone. Ed.



TRUE and in the 60's the Tire industry made a LIFETIME tire ( Had engineering faculty at my college that worked for them then ) and often recounted that fact   --


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## Johnskiismore (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> No, the car companies paid cities in the 50's to tear up light rail tracks so they could sell more buses and cars.



I think too that Goodyear Tires attained contracts for street trolleys, and they pretty much phased them out as everyone was buying a car!  My father knows a lot about this, I'll have to ask him about it again.  

It is pretty wild to visit historical societies in almost any town in Southern New England, and undoubtedly there street cars on Main Street.  There's a book out there about a man who rode various street cars, trolleys, trains and made it from Boston, MA to Chicago, IL for $2.  The most he had to walk was something like 15 miles between lines, and it took him two days.  This took place in the 1920's I'm pretty sure.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> It will hit home this winter when few can afford heating oil at over $6 a gallon ... next winter the house thermostat will be set to 62 and I will use electric heat .. heating oil is out it is already $4.35 a gallon now and that is for #2 .. I burn k1 which is usually 50 to 60 cents higher in cost..



That's what I meant by "affordability" earlier in the thread.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

When the masses are threatened with cold  homes and  hungry and sick  kids and unemployment  --------- no amount of rhetoric from either public or private sector will suffice ! 

Change is needed now - the middle class is becoming extinct. 

Incentives to either conserve / economize/  save or or live within one's means are being trashed in favor of the HAVES


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

On a cheerier not the damn sun just came out and i'm in need of some exercise to burn this  negative energy off dammit


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> During World War 2 they put a carburetor on a Sherman tank that got 60 miles per gallon. The design is still classified. If a tank got that mileage, what would it do on a car? They're screwing everyone. Ed.



Are carburetors more fuel efficient than injectors? Certainly not cleaner anyway.


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## dmc (May 22, 2008)

Just paid $4.05 a gallon....

wow...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

:flame:





Moe Ghoul said:


> Steeze, maybe you can introduce monuments made of recyclced plastic soda bottles. Lighter, cheaper and cheaper to transport. Monuments could make nice little billboards, too, lol, sell advertisement on them!



Hahaha...I don't think so unless they hold up to the elements...maybe we can just make them out of cardboard and use a sharpie...that way errors won't be so costly..With our average order closing in on $3k..I don't want to sell cheaper monuments..


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## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Only possible with cheap oil.





wa-loaf said:


> No, the car companies paid cities in the 50's to tear up light rail tracks so they could sell more buses and cars.



Yes, all parts of the puzzle, but ripping up the tracks made it more difficult for folks to get around without a car. Get a car and you need to park it someplace, so why not move out of town a bit. And then the snowball starts with strip malls . . . Urban planning in the 50s was a nightmare and is the root of a lot of problems we have today.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Thanks for an interesting response . Had no idea that  rate of creamation was either that advanced and also that cost-effective for the families .



The cremation rate is growing each year..as cemetery plots become more expensive and now the Catholic church allows it's members to be cremated.  The funeral homes still have to provide a service and in many cases embalm the body for a viewing but they simply use a rental casket with a fresh liner..For cremations they don't get a casket sale which has a profit margin of about 500%..or the sale of a vault..instead they might sell an urn.  In Europe and Australia the cremation rate is 70% and in China they bury bodies vertically.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Yes, all parts of the puzzle, but ripping up the tracks made it more difficult for folks to get around without a car. Get a car and you need to park it someplace, so why not move out of town a bit. And then the snowball starts with strip malls . . . Urban planning in the 50s was a nightmare and is the root of a lot of problems we have today.



Urban? Suburban and ex urban is even worse. Kunzler's "The Long Emergency" is a worthwhile read. Maybe a tad too bleak, but a lot of his predictions are slowly coming to fruition.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

dmc said:


> Just paid $4.05 a gallon....
> 
> wow...



That might be the least you'll ever pay..unless you drive down to Dirty Jersey..


----------



## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> The cremation rate is growing each year..as cemetery plots become more expensive and now the Catholic church allows it's members to be cremated.  The funeral homes still have to provide a service and in many cases embalm the body for a viewing but they simply use a rental casket with a fresh liner..For cremations they don't get a casket sale which has a profit margin of about 500%..or the sale of a vault..instead they might sell an urn.  In Europe and Australia the cremation rate is 70% and in China they bury bodies vertically.



Vertical? Interesting.


----------



## Johnskiismore (May 22, 2008)

dmc said:


> Just paid $4.05 a gallon....
> 
> wow...



Talking to my sister on Sunday and I commented on how the prices in my part of NH just got over $4 a gallon.  Her response (she lives in Boston, MA), was, 'My car runs on diesel I'm paying around $4.50 welcome to the club.'

Not good


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Just got back from a long walk passed several stations that are @$4.13 for 89 octane for my Saab --Anybody for a Tea Party


----------



## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

I just filled up at a Hess station in NH for $3.67 ..... felt like I won the lottery :lol:


I wonder how many gas station owners have auxilery tanks that they fill up for personal use, lock in for a 1000 gallons at a cheap price to help stem off some of the cost for their own use down the line.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

I just ran some errands for work...I passed 4 gas stations...Sunoco $3.83..Lukoil #1..$3.87...Lukoil #2 $3.87...Shell...$3.89....and two days ago I paid $3.75..for my first ever $50+ fill-up..it's interesting to me the way it's interesting to gape at the carnage of a car crash on the side of the road..


----------



## drjeff (May 22, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I just filled up at a Hess station in NH for $3.67 ..... felt like I won the lottery :lol:
> .



Wouldn't happen to be the one on Rte 9/202 East of Concord would it??? That station for some reason always seems to ahve the lowest prices of just about any station in NH when I'm traveling up there.


----------



## wa-loaf (May 22, 2008)

We're thinking of switching to gas heat for the house, we need to upgrade anyway, and I have a full tank of oil that we only paid $2.59 for. I figure I put it on Craigslist for $3.50 and someone will come pump it out for their own use.


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## Johnskiismore (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> We're thinking of switching to gas heat for the house, we need to upgrade anyway, and I have a full tank of oil that we only paid $2.59 for. I figure I put it on Craigslist for $3.50 and someone will come pump it out for their own use.



Good idea, home heating oil is around $4.79 in these parts!


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Gas heat is the way to go.

 We've been on it for yrs  w/ Lennox Pulse furnace and programmable stats > heat my 2000 sq ft home  @68 degrees  , operate a gas fireplace and gas hot water heater  for a budget of $135 /month  over 10 months with arrears in 11th month .  this year it'll be under 1500 for it all 

Clean burn no smelll , no hassle


----------



## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I just ran some errands for work...I passed 4 gas stations...Sunoco $3.83..Lukoil #1..$3.87...Lukoil #2 $3.87...Shell...$3.89....and two days ago I paid $3.75..for my first ever $50+ fill-up..it's interesting to me the way it's interesting to gape at the carnage of a car crash on the side of the road..


 
Cross the river.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Wouldn't happen to be the one on Rte 9/202 East of Concord would it??? That station for some reason always seems to ahve the lowest prices of just about any station in NH when I'm traveling up there.



Route 1 Hampton

and if you're ever on 495 going north in Mass, cheapest gas is at the 125 exit for Bradford/Haverhill at the Irving.   Trust me, when you spend as much time in the car as I do, you know where the cheap spots are


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## eatskisleep (May 22, 2008)

If it ever hit $12 there would be mass panic, there would be a world war.


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## tcharron (May 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> I like the explanation of how the oil execs need all those profits for oil exploration. If they really were spending that much money on oil exploration, they wouldn't have those huge ass profits. :smash:



Well, yes and no.  One of the benifits of R&D is it's pretty much 100% tax deductible.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

eatskisleep said:


> If it ever hit $12 there would be mass panic, there would be a world war.



  News Flash  : Oil pundits today NOW saying  $15 /barrel


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## drjeff (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> News Flash  : Oil pundits today NOW saying  $15 /barrel



I'm guessing you mean $15 a GALLON    I bet we'd all LOVE the price if oil was $15 a barrel


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Sorry Doc, my bad - yep $15/gallon


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

Now that the headlines are blaring "America's oil crisis" and the gurus are yelling 12/gal, a nice correction is prolly in the works. If they can shut down the Enron loophole, ICE OTC trades, and ramp up margin requirements on oil futures, that might take some of the steam outta the recent move short term. Long term it won't do diddly until we see serious demand destruction. Today's congressional bill seemed to have some impact.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/21/business/commod.php


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

Moe i totally agree --attack it from the demand perspective  with legislation that penalizes vehicle size  , excess consumption  as a result of Horsepower ,  vehicle weight  etc , while ratcheting  up alternatives as the vehicle to sustain  ultimate conversion to alternatives .

 Excess profit may need  be taxed to help support REAL development  with Specific MEASUREABLE National Goals/Timetables  to acellerate progess-- not talking here about leaving this up to the multi-national oil corps to "say' they are  doing it but lets get some $$ Teeth  behind the effort


----------



## riverc0il (May 22, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> I'm  venting here but ,if we can't ratchet up our technological intellect and the intellectual and financial  capital  to rationally and systematicall deliver BETTER results on alternatives  - it may be time to seriously consider nationalizing the Greed hog oil corps  C'mon guys alternatives are no longer a debate its time  @ $6 /gal to FIND A SOLUTION NOW


Higher prices make alternatives affordable. There are already alternatives, they are just not cost efficient. With supply and demand the way they are, gas prices reaching those levels is certainly not out of the question.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2008)

Wonder if hybrid 18 wheelers are in the works.  Its the cost ramifications to goods that I am most concerned with, not individual needs for transport.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 22, 2008)

I'm against windfall profit tax, nobody cried when the majors had slim profits for years. Bailing out Bear Stearns, foreclosures, banks, the list goes on is complete BS. Let the markets clean out the driftwood and discover real prices. If there was predatory lending practices, fraud, etc. class action lawyers or individual civil suits are the better remedy. Having the taxpayer bail out excesses rewards bad risk taking and bad decisions.


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## Warp Daddy (May 22, 2008)

The Kenworth T270 Class 6 hybrid-electric truck features the Paccar PS-6 diesel engine. It's got a motor/generator working with the transmission and a 340-volt battery to allow the truck to get help from electricity when traveling at speeds below 30MPH. 

That improves fuel efficiency by 30 percent,


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I just filled up at a Hess station in NH for $3.67 ..... felt like I won the lottery :lol:
> .




Speaking of Hess..the Hess station in my neighborhood is still $3.75 and each pump had 2-3 cars in line a few minutes ago..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 22, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Cross the river.




Well from where I live that would involve almost 2 gallons of gas round-trip and 50 minutes..no thanks..How much are you paying in the garden state???


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well from where I live that would involve almost 2 gallons of gas round-trip and 50 minutes..no thanks..How much are you paying in the garden state???


 

Hard to say, every time I step outside, the price has gone up from the previous day. But you know we got the best prices around


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## andyzee (May 22, 2008)

For pricing
http://www.newjerseygasprices.com/i...eas&tme_limit=24&site=NewJersey&srch=0&list=0


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## snoseek (May 22, 2008)

Seiously, if your driving an inefficient consider unloading it now as it will be worth less in the future-just a guess. Didn't anyone see this coming? WTF I'm still rooting for higher fuel prices for many reasons. People have written so much about this for so many years, it's all slowly unfolding almost like clockwork. The potential i think is pretty scary, action needs to be taken now.

I do think at some point it could become overvalued due to media and public hysteria, just not yet.


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## Warp Daddy (May 23, 2008)

Sent letters to the NYS delegation in Congress last nite --probably  a waste of time but made me FEEL better .


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## ctenidae (May 23, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> I'm against windfall profit tax, nobody cried when the majors had slim profits for years. Bailing out Bear Stearns, foreclosures, banks, the list goes on is complete BS. Let the markets clean out the driftwood and discover real prices. If there was predatory lending practices, fraud, etc. class action lawyers or individual civil suits are the better remedy. Having the taxpayer bail out excesses rewards bad risk taking and bad decisions.



Agree for the most part, except for bailing out Bear Stearns being BS. Highly, highly needed to maintain stability in the financial system. Yes, they amde bad bets, but if they'd gone under suddenly, all of the trades they're counterparty to would have blown up, they (were) one of the top prime brokers, so that would have been a major blow to all investors (many, many of whome are 401(k) plans and the like. Just letting Bear blow up would have been disasterous, at best.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Sent letters to the NYS delegation in Congress last nite --probably  a waste of time but made me FEEL better .



Curious what you wrote


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

I wonder how bad things need to get before the gov't starts re-thinking how much $$$ their spending in the middle-east.   The Stimulus plan = $152 billion, next years war spending bill - $165 billion.   I'll stay away from how I politically feel about the war, but purely from an economic stand point; we can't afford it.  Well, unless you're a stock holder in Haliburton.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 23, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Agree for the most part, except for bailing out Bear Stearns being BS. Highly, highly needed to maintain stability in the financial system. Yes, they amde bad bets, but if they'd gone under suddenly, all of the trades they're counterparty to would have blown up, they (were) one of the top prime brokers, so that would have been a major blow to all investors (many, many of whome are 401(k) plans and the like. Just letting Bear blow up would have been disasterous, at best.



That's how markets work. Putting worthless liabilities on the Feds book (taxpayers shoulders) is only going to exascerbate the blowup as the derivatives tsunami comes crashing down. $456 trillion in derivatives isn't even a real number anymore. Is hyperinflation a better option? Let the counterparties or a consortium of investment banks bail out Bear, they created this garbage, let them bail it out under the gun of criminal prosecution and personal liability if they don't.


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## ctenidae (May 23, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> That's how markets work. Putting worthless liabilities on the Feds book (taxpayers shoulders) is only going to exascerbate the blowup as the derivatives tsunami comes crashing down. $456 trillion in derivatives isn't even a real number anymore. Is hyperinflation a better option? Let the counterparties or a consortium of investment banks bail out Bear, they created this garbage, let them bail it out under the gun of criminal prosecution and personal liability if they don't.



Failing for bad bets is one thing, dragging down the rest of the non-derivitaves oriented financial system is something else entirely.


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## Moe Ghoul (May 23, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Failing for bad bets is one thing, dragging down the rest of the non-derivitaves oriented financial system is something else entirely.



I'd rather take my chances jumping out the 3rd floor window than riding the elevator up in a burning building. Let's watch and see if this trainwreck unfolds over time.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

I tell you one thing, with this oil price madness I am so glad that the condo I am purchasing is as small as the gf and I will be comfortable in for a few years and the heat is electric.  

I wonder what kind of population migration away from the Northeast can be expected at these prices when it will cost upwards of five grand to heat an average size house with oil very soon.  It will be a real crush on the local economy.


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## wa-loaf (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I tell you one thing, with this oil price madness I am so glad that the condo I am purchasing is as small as the gf and I will be comfortable in for a few years and the heat is electric.
> 
> I wonder what kind of population migration away from the Northeast can be expected at these prices when it will cost upwards of five grand to heat an average size house with oil very soon.  It will be a real crush on the local economy.



A year ago I would have called you nuts for getting a place with electric heat.


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## ctenidae (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I tell you one thing, with this oil price madness I am so glad that the condo I am purchasing is as small as the gf and I will be comfortable in for a few years and the heat is electric.
> 
> I wonder what kind of population migration away from the Northeast can be expected at these prices when it will cost upwards of five grand to heat an average size house with oil very soon.  It will be a real crush on the local economy.



Unfortunately, electric costs are going up, too- Calpine just announced a bid to by some generation facilities at 18.5x EBITDA, which is way high, signalling they expect prices to rise to make that price reasonable. With costs to build new generation north of $1,000/kW and rising, it's going to get worse before it gets better.


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## Greg (May 23, 2008)

~$4.12 in my town...


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> A year ago I would have called you nuts for getting a place with electric heat.



If it were a larger place, I'd agree.  Last years electric for the place averaged about $145 per month, which includes heat, hot water, AC and all appliances.  

We are being ULTRA conservative with our purchase; some would say too conservative.   Most people in our income bracket would purchase a property twice the size and value.  Given the state of our economy, I didn't want to take any big risks and decided that for now it's best to be in place that if one of us were to have a change of employment, we could still afford the place on 1/2 our income if we needed to.

The good news about the place for the future is that comparable units in the facility have a great rental history and rent for more than what the monthly expenses are for the place.  So, down the road it'll become an investment property when we choose to upgrade.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

location was a factor also...only 5 miles to the train station with free parking for a commuter rail into Boston, should one of us decide to work in the city.  $235 for a monthly pass; which is nearly half the cost per month to park in the city, never mind the gas to and from there.


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## wa-loaf (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> location was a factor also...only 5 miles to the train station with free parking for a commuter rail into Boston, should one of us decide to work in the city.  $235 for a monthly pass; which is nearly half the cost per month to park in the city, never mind the gas to and from there.



What rail line? It's $250 for a zone 8 rail pass, which if you are moving to NH it's gotta be. {don't forget to take into consideration what parking at the rail station is. $35 a month at my stop.} ignore this I obviously didn't read closely enough.


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## Greg (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> We are being ULTRA conservative with our purchase; some would say too conservative.   Most people in our income bracket would purchase a property twice the size and value.



We sorta did the same thing when we bought our first house, a small 1,000 square foot colonial. Less than 2 1/2 years later and after one kid and one in the oven, we had to move. The place was just too small. We lucked out and made enough on it to buy a much larger long term (20+ year) house, but if the market wasn't as good as it was at the time (we sold in 2005 at the peak), we would have been stuck, or might have only upgraded slightly to another stepping stone house. The bottom line is I would try to buy as much home as you can afford with the expectation being if you had to stay there long term, you could, especially if you plan on starting a family eventually. Every siutation is different though and if we were able to buy a bigger house the first time around, we might be in the situation now of staying there and it still not being as large as we want/need. The last thing you want to be is a prisoner in your own home.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> What rail line? It's $250 for a zone 8 rail pass, which if you are moving to NH it's gotta be. {don't forget to take into consideration what parking at the rail station is. $35 a month at my stop.} ignore this I obviously didn't read closely enough.



The downeaster and parking at the station we would use in Exeter is free.

http://www.amtrakdowneaster.com/fares.html

Only about an hour and twenty minute trip to.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2008)

Greg said:


> We sorta did the same thing when we bought our first house, a small 1,000 square foot colonial. Less than 2 1/2 years later and after one kid and one in the oven, we had to move. The place was just too small. We lucked out and made enough on it to buy a much larger long term (20+ year) house, but if the market wasn't as good as it was at the time (we sold in 2005 at the peak), we would have been stuck, or might have only upgraded slightly to another stepping stone house. The bottom line is I would try to buy as much home as you can afford with the expectation being if you had to stay there long term, you could, especially if you plan on starting a family eventually. Every siutation is different though and if we were able to buy a bigger house the first time around, we might be in the situation now of staying there and it still not being as large as we want/need. The last thing you want to be is a prisoner in your own home.



All very sound advice.  I guess the way I see things for us, the unit makes sense because it can easily be rented for more than what we will be paying.  If we haven't upgraded by the time we have kids, which we won't be for at least two years, we'll rent it out and find a temporary larger rental unit for our own use. It's the first purchase in what I hope to be many properties......looking to retire as a slumlord. :lol:


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## Greg (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> All very sound advice.  I guess the way I see things for us, the unit makes sense because it can easily be rented for more than what we will be paying.  If we haven't upgraded by the time we have kids, which we won't be for at least two years, we'll rent it out and find a temporary larger rental unit for our own use. It's the first purchase in what I hope to be many properties......looking to retire as a slumlord. :lol:



Sounds good, especially since you have a fall back (i.e. renting it). Best of luck!


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## wa-loaf (May 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> The downeaster and parking at the station we would use in Exeter is free.
> 
> http://www.amtrakdowneaster.com/fares.html
> 
> Only about an hour and twenty minute trip to.



WOW! That price and schedule is better than the regular commuter rail. Maybe not as many trains running, but the times are just right for the commute. Jesus I need to move.


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## Warp Daddy (May 23, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> The fall out from this "energy crisis" will be much more severe than it was in the early eighties.
> 
> 
> High inflation, super high interest rates.. When I was trying to buy a house back then the interest rate was above 18%.. the resulting recession was very severe..the trickle down is now just starting to show up in the cost of everything except wages. Everything is going to take a hit and may never recover.  I can't imagine what the times will require this time.




 IMO This scenario is probably VERY close AS we speak .  I pray that i'm wrong ,but  see little evidence of Political Will or Leadership  to do much of anything SUBSTANTIVE about it . The Fed's reactions seem  more symbolic than potent

The level of spin control  and head in the sand approach to Leadership is maddening .Somewhere in the firmamant our forefathers are weeping .Get as debt free as you can  and watch discretionery spending and save your $$

Hope i'm not right


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## dmc (May 23, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> The eighties saw the fundamental change in the family that it required 2 wage earners just to get by .. I can't imagine what the times will require this time.



We can always put our youth to work... But they seem to be a little busy in the middle east right now...


----------



## dmc (May 23, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Hope i'm not right



Pretty much my mantra lately..


----------



## Moe Ghoul (May 23, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> IMO This scenario is probably VERY close AS we speak .  I pray that i'm wrong ,but  see little evidence of Political Will or Leadership  to do much of anything SUBSTANTIVE about it . The Fed's reactions seem  more symbolic than potent
> 
> The level of spin control  and head in the sand approach to Leadership is maddening .Somewhere in the firmamant our forefathers are weeping .Get as debt free as you can  and watch discretionery spending and save your $$
> 
> Hope i'm not right



The fed is a joke. Rates will prolly approach zero. Any hike in rates will set off calamity at this point. We can thank the king of ez money for that: Greenspan.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 23, 2008)

Greg said:


> ~$4.12 in my town...



The cheapest I saw today was $3.74 at a Hess Station just south of Allentown(That was in the morning and I'm sure prices have gone up since)..the most I saw was $3.97 in the Philly area at a Lukoil.  The local Shell station was $3.83 this morning and $3.89 this afternoon and diesel was $4.89 this morning and $4.99 this afternoon..now is as good of a time as ever to top off your tanks..Moe is talking about $5 by June 15th..I think it might even be more by then...and on the news they were saying $7 by Labor day...


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## andyzee (May 23, 2008)

Bats in my belfry and rain on my roof
Even my teddy bear stays so aloof
Flies that go walking on leashes so long
Even my parakeet wears a sarong
Sometimes I wonder, but mostly I don´t
I always saqy "yes" but usually I won´t
Elephants flying way off to the moon
Even my sundial´s stuck at high noon


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## 2knees (May 23, 2008)

the rich man in his summer home
singing just leave well enough alone
when his pants are down, his covers' blown.


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## andyzee (May 23, 2008)

I tell you everything that is really nothing, and nothing of what is everything, do not be fooled by what I am saying.  Please listen carefully and try to hear what I am not saying.


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## mondeo (May 23, 2008)

Oil shale, friends. Oil shale. I think it becomes profitable at what, $8/gallon? Oil will plateau while alternative energy sources become available.


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## mondeo (May 24, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> During World War 2 they put a carburetor on a Sherman tank that got 60 miles per gallon. The design is still classified. If a tank got that mileage, what would it do on a car? They're screwing everyone. Ed.



B.S.

I don't care how efficiently you make an engine breathe, you aren't going to get a 30 ton vehicle, with a lossy track drive system, running a 6.3:1 compression ratio, to get 60 mpg. The laws of physics deny it.



Warp Daddy said:


> TRUE and in the 60's the Tire industry made a LIFETIME tire ( Had engineering faculty at my college that worked for them then ) and often recounted that fact   --



Sure, I could make one too. All you have to do is make it out of steel.

The rubber they would've had to use to make a lifetime tire would've had to have had just about no grip.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 24, 2008)

NO so Mondy -- it was the DRIVING FORCE of "planned obsolescence" that killed that tire and ANY further development


----------



## mondeo (May 24, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> NO so Mondy -- it was the DRIVING FORCE of "planned obsolescence" that killed that tire and ANY further development



Actually, I'm not arguing that point. All I'm saying is traction would've been crap, because you would've needed to use a pretty hard rubber. Especially in the 60s.

Oh, and there are tires with a 80K mile warranty. Change 'em once over the life of the vehicle. To me, it's about equivalent.


----------



## drjeff (May 24, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Actually, I'm not arguing that point. All I'm saying is traction would've been crap, because you would've needed to use a pretty hard rubber. Especially in the 60s.
> 
> Oh, and there are tires with a 80K mile warranty. Change 'em once over the life of the vehicle. To me, it's about equivalent.



If you believed all the rumors that have come out of the auto industry, by now we should all be driving flying cars that get about 100 mpg


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 26, 2008)

$4.29  /gallon - today


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 26, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> $4.29  /gallon - today



Prices have stayed steady all weekend here around $3.85..


----------



## wa-loaf (May 26, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> $4.29  /gallon - today



Is NY super expensive? I saw prices from 3.81 to 3.89 today.


----------



## eatskisleep (May 26, 2008)

www.gasbuddy.com


----------



## mondeo (May 26, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Is NY super expensive? I saw prices from 3.81 to 3.89 today.



Yeah, it is. So is CT.

During the ski season, I'd reliably fill up in MA for 20 cents/gallon less than I could find it in CT.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 26, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Is NY super expensive? I saw prices from 3.81 to 3.89 today.




There are more taxes..gas and sales taxes in NY than other places,...I think sales tax is 8-9% in the Empire State.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 26, 2008)

I filled up in Haverhill, MA on the way out to the Berkshires for $3.81, it was $3.89 filling up today on the way back.  

I think I'm going to frame my receipt from the last time I fill up under $4 and show it to my future children :lol:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 26, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I filled up in Haverhill, MA on the way out to the Berkshires for $3.81, it was $3.89 filling up today on the way back.
> 
> I think I'm going to frame my receipt from the last time I fill up under $4 and show it to my future children :lol:




Wit you mean these high gas prices aren't temporary..I thought they are high for Memorial Day weekend and tomorrow it will be $1.69 a gallon...ahahhahahahaha..

I need to just keep topping off my tank everyday.since the price doesn'[t look like it going down..


----------



## mondeo (May 26, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> There are more taxes..gas and sales taxes in NY than other places,...I think sales tax is 8-9% in the Empire State.



Gas: 0.443/gallon CT, 0.412/gallon NY, 0.238/gallon MA.

Sales: 6% CT, 5% MA, 4% NY - In NY, each county will then collect their own sales tax. So you typically see 8%, but it's 8.5% in some places (Buffalo, for one.)


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## deadheadskier (May 26, 2008)

I wonder when we'll start seeing use/demand go down nationally.  Currently in Maine consumers have purchased 3% less gasoline year to date than last year.  I bet the real percentage is less though as I'm guessing more residents near the NH border are filling up out of state when they can.  I'm fortunate enough to be on the road for work and I NEVER buy gas in state; always NH or MA.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 26, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder when we'll start seeing use/demand go down nationally.  Currently in Maine consumers have purchased 3% less gasoline year to date than last year.  I bet the real percentage is less though as I'm guessing more residents near the NH border are filling up out of state when they can.  I'm fortunate enough to be on the road for work and I NEVER buy gas in state; always NH or MA.



well, there's my answer.  I just switched over to cnn.com and found this at the top of the list.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/26/gas.driving/index.html


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 27, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> There are more taxes..gas and sales taxes in NY than other places,...I think sales tax is 8-9% in the Empire State.



 Gas IS MORE expensive but sales tax here in St Lawrence county is 7 %


----------



## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

A breakdown of the Federal and State Gas Taxes here:
http://www.connecticutgasprices.com/tax_info.aspx


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 27, 2008)

Thanks Doc for digging that info out :    that's one fugly set of data


----------



## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Thanks Doc for digging that info out :    that's one fugly set of data



Well, when the state of CT is involved with the compiling of data, fugly is about as good as you're going to get


----------



## ctenidae (May 27, 2008)

Sign of the times- went to fill up at the Hess in Brighton, payed with the debit card- the pump stopped at $50 and wouldn't go further. Not sure if that's a normal limit or not, since I've never had to buy that much gass before. Thank God we only fill up about every 2 weeks.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Sign of the times- went to fill up at the Hess in Brighton, payed with the debit card- the pump stopped at $50 and wouldn't go further. Not sure if that's a normal limit or not, since I've never had to buy that much gass before. Thank God we only fill up about every 2 weeks.



I think that's normal for a debit card and I think it's either $60 ot $80 with a credit card..


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 28, 2008)

$92 sticker price  to fill Both Saabs today --------------the Only good news was had a Price Chopper card that cut that  price by $10 and the  '07 Sport combi got 34.1 mpg for 450 miles


----------



## drjeff (May 28, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> $92 sticker price  to fill Both Saabs today --------------the Only good news was had a Price Chopper card that cut that  price by $10 and the  '07 Sport combi got 34.1 mpg for 450 miles



That's about the only advantage to higher food prices, is that you rack up the $$'s quicker at Price Chopper to redeem at Sunocco for a cheaper price per gallon.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 28, 2008)

drjeff said:


> That's about the only advantage to higher food prices, is that you rack up the $$'s quicker at Price Chopper to redeem at Sunocco for a cheaper price per gallon.



 Yep kinda feels like a Zero sum game


----------



## drjeff (Jun 3, 2008)

My business partner just got this in an e-mail. 







RFLMAO


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 3, 2008)

LUV it When a Plan comes together


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

The good news is all the political jawboning, Soros, regulators, etc is taking the fun outta oil temporarily, maybe we'll get some levelling off for the summer before it heads higher when the next derivatives tsunami hits, forcing the fed to fire it's last bullet with a few rate cuts and flooding more paper into the system, dragging the USD lower. Too funny how the clowns claim a weak dollar has little to do with oil price. Take the USD index, invert it, and superimpose it on the oil chart, and they're almost identical.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 3, 2008)

We've got the gas company coming to check out our house for conversion to gas boilers. We need to upgrade anyway as we still have old "snowman" boilers in the basement. Gas isn't cheap, but it seems a lot more stable than the price of oil these days and is less of a hassle. We were talking to our plumbing/heating guy and he told us he likes Oil because it keeps him in business, but when he builds his own place he's going to put gas in because the boilers are cleaner and require a lot less maintenance.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

Nat gas has been on a tear lately, but is prolly the better alternative. I'm all nat gas in my house. Most of the utilities are announcing rate hikes as they get rate approvals. PSE&G, EXC, and a few others already announced them.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Nat gas has been on a tear lately, but is prolly the better alternative. I'm all nat gas in my house. Most of the utilities are announcing rate hikes as they get rate approvals. PSE&G, EXC, and a few others already announced them.



We already have gas in the house for our stove and water heaters, which costs me about $100 bucks a month and it's considered residential non-heat so it's more expensive. I'll reduce my bills by one and save money be getting on the cheaper gas rate too.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

Let's hope for another mild hurricane season......


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm wondering when affordable solar technology will come online.  It seems to me the answers for residential/commercial fuel needs lie in the solar, wind and nuclear arenas.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 3, 2008)

Interesting knock-on effect I hadn't considered until recently:

One byproduct of refinging gasoline is hydrogen, which is used to pull sulfur out of diesel to meet the low-sulfur diesel requirements.
With the increase in ethanol being added, refineries are making less gasoline (10% less, theoretically), which means less hydrogen, which means refineries have to buy hydrogen to make diesel.
Ergo, diesel costs more.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 3, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm wondering when affordable solar technology will come online.  It seems to me the answers for residential/commercial fuel needs lie in the solar, wind and nuclear arenas.



3-5 years, which has been the expectation for the past 5-10.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> 3-5 years, which has been the expectation for the past 5-10.



so 5 - 10 years then


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 3, 2008)

By  then  given no change ----------we'll be The Third World


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 4, 2008)

For anyone that wants to hear an earful about the energy markets and who to point a finger at, CSPAN video of a recent hearing reveals what kinda bozos and crooks are running the show. Mike Greenberger, former head of the CFTC, is at 31:30, if you want to skip the intros, grandstanding politicos and Soros as the first speaker.

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=soros


----------



## mondeo (Jun 4, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm wondering when affordable solar technology will come online.  It seems to me the answers for residential/commercial fuel needs lie in the solar, wind and nuclear arenas.



Solar has some serious over most of the world. According to my interpretation of this picture:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




When solar energy becomes commercially practical in Arizona, Southern California, etc., it will take maybe another 80% increase in the cost of other energy (holding solar costs constant) for it to become practical in the NE. In my estimation it is much more likely that the Atlantic seaboard will get its power from oceanographic sources, be it wave, tidal, or from the Gulf stream, though those have their own issues.

I'm predicting solar in the SW, wind in the midwest, ocean based in the east and NW, and a handful of other sources elsewhere.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Solar has some serious over most of the world. According to my interpretation of this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Makes sense, but I'd imagine despite the solar limitations of the northeast, i.e. lack of potent sunshine; you would think that the technology will eventually be there that makes it possible to create a solar panel that has maximum efficiency and storage capabilities to make it a viable and inexpensive energy source.

For crying out load, we've figured how to send a plumber into space to fix a toilet....if we can do that, I should be able to power my car with a solar panel on my ipod :lol:

of course I don't own an ipod, but I would if it powered my car :lol:


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 5, 2008)

Solar and wind share two big problems- reliability. There are long periods when both are unavailable, solar at night (obviously) and wind in the middle of the day and the middle of the night. Unfortunately, electricity is a bit of a devil to store effectively. Tidal and wave energy don't have that problem, though the sea is a harsh mistress, so keeping equipment in good operating order is tough, but by no means insurmountable. Doesn't do much good for Kansas, though...

When considering alternatives to fossil fuels, resource availability is just as big a problem as with fossil fuels. Not everywhere has useable geothermal, or wind, or solar, or hydro, or tidal. Long and short of it is, there's no one big answer. It's going to take a variety of sources, which people have trouble understanding, and our electical grid isn't designed to handle intermittent generation from a range of sources. So, not only do the generating technologies have to be up to snuff, the infrastructure has to be rebuilt in a lot of ways, as well. Big problems, there, but again, by no means insurmountable with the proper political and economic conditions.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> BINGO !! point is finally made
> 
> The ski industry already suffering from decline will face accellerated decline and most folks will FEEL  REAL economic pain for FIRST time in their lives.  Think Domino effect as far as ANY discretionery spending then think on industries thatDEPEND on discretionery spending -- it gets UGLY real quick
> 
> alternative -- get out your XC or Tele skis



Time to bring back/heavily promote the ski trains from the major East Coast cities to the mtns?


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 5, 2008)

from_the_NEK said:


> Time to bring back/heavily promote the ski trains from the major East Coast cities to the mtns?




That would be a fine alternative for urban and greater Metro areas  for certain  , but  for others who lack access it becomes a diminshing return if they have to drive an hr or more to get to an AMTRAK line .


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2008)

$11 rise per barrel in one day......unemployment has its biggest one month jump in two decades.

Man, does anyone have any good financial news to report other than saving a bunch of money from switching to Geico


----------



## tcharron (Jun 6, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> $11 rise per barrel in one day......unemployment has its biggest one month jump in two decades.
> 
> Man, does anyone have any good financial news to report other than saving a bunch of money from switching to Geico



Used ski sales give some GREAT deals.  :-D


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 7, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> $11 rise per barrel in one day......unemployment has its biggest one month jump in two decades.
> 
> Man, does anyone have any good financial news to report other than saving a bunch of money from switching to Geico



The good news is being heavily weighted in commodities, USO on the long side and DUG on the short side for oil if one wants to play that. Gold is gonna slice thru 1200/oz like a hot knife in butter  by year's end. Steezy......


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 7, 2008)

For what its worth: These are " the times that will TRY men's and women's souls "  BUT you do need to be in the game and focused on your  longterm goals. 

Just read some scary research on teh post $200 /barrel economy . Predictions that seemed to be "lunatic fringe"  economist's  speculation are now being more seriously considered by several mainstream  economists . 

One prediction is once it hit $200-$225 /barrel the Burbs and McMansion cul de sac havens Become GHOST TOWNS and we enter a pre-1940's era lifestyle with fwere diversions and much reigned in discretionery spending Energy costs including home heating , gas and electricity approaches  12-15 THOUSAND a yr for the  Median income  family unit  < Silver lining at that point driving becomes a LUXURY and Mass transportation and personal  Fitness ( Walking and obesity reduction )  become evident . Food cost s are expected to reach  teh level of 450 mgallons of oil PER consumer and when that happen s -- well i think you see the point 

Several scenarios and recommendations are made BUT this country seems to ONLY act after teh crisi hit 

again my new mantra;   "I hope they're Wrong "


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 7, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> For what its worth: These are " the times that will TRY men's and women's souls "  BUT you do need to be in the game and focused on your  longterm goals.
> 
> Just read some scary research on teh post $200 /barrel economy . Predictions that seemed to be "lunatic fringe"  economist's  speculation are now being more seriously considered by several mainstream  economists .
> 
> ...



U read Kunzler, too?


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 7, 2008)

YEP and  McLean's Magazine  for a Canadian Perspective


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 9, 2008)

Gas prices are starting to go up again.  Alot of the local stations are crossing the $4 per gallon mark.  I wonder if a barrel of oil will go up more this week.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 9, 2008)

No clue. I thought 120ish was gonna be the short term high weeks ago, with a barrel 130 by year's end. Gas prices have breached 5/gal in a few areas before june 15. I went short on oil on Friday, but my finger's on the trigger. Generally, price action reverses near "century marks, 10, 60, 100, 120, 140, etc. It's all in the US dollar and Israeli comments about hitting Iran. Still think that's in the works come the fall. I mentioned on PASR weeks ago that the Petraeus promo to CENTCOM was significant. Welcome to the age of managed chaos


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 9, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> No clue. I thought 120ish was gonna be the short term high weeks ago, with a barrel 130 by year's end. Gas prices have breached 5/gal in a few areas before june 15. I went short on oil on Friday, but my finger's on the trigger. Generally, price action reverses near "century marks, 10, 60, 100, 120, 140, etc. It's all in the US dollar and Israeli comments about hitting Iran. Still think that's in the works come the fall. I mentioned on PASR weeks ago that the Petraeus promo to CENTCOM was significant. Welcome to the age of managed chaos



Gates firing the Air Force brass isn't a good sign, either. Pretty sure Israel's going to do our Iranian dirty work for us.

Matt Simmons is calling for oil between $200-$500. Granted, he's a bit of a pessimist (not that I disagree with him), but $500 seems a bit high. $200 by the end of the year is my call.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 9, 2008)

Were in uncharted waters, I just watch the currency markets for clues. I thought 130-150 was going to be the high for the year.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 9, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Gates firing the Air Force brass isn't a good sign, either. Pretty sure Israel's going to do our Iranian dirty work
> 
> Nothing from this administration should surprise us at this point


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 9, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Were in uncharted waters, I just watch the currency markets for clues. I thought 130-150 was going to be the high for the year.



Just regressed USD/EUR rates against oil prices. R-Squared of 0.65. I'd say there's definately a link, there.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 9, 2008)

Check out "The Long Emergency " by James Howard Kunstler or a "shorter synopsis" of some of the concepts  in the May 25 , 2008 interview in Washingtonpost.com entitled WAKE UP AMERICA . I believe the original work was done in 2003 .

Kunstler in adition to this has written several other works , some fictional and was considered in the not too distant past to be an ALARMIST  -- sadly some of what he wrote about in 2003 has already happened,

JUDGE for yourself ???


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Before the end of summer average gas price will be over $5 probably close to $6 ...  there is going to Be a lot of cold people this winter which will start the nationalization of energy resources .. gas is one thing but heating oil and natural gas prices is another ... ..



unlikely, but possible. After all Roosevelt did break up Standard Oil back in the day


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 9, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Before the end of summer average gas price will be over $5 probably close to $6 ...  there is going to Be a lot of cold people this winter which will start the nationalization of energy resources .. gas is one thing but heating oil and natural gas prices is another ... in the past lack of food caused revolutions ... lack of access to energy supplies will be no different. Maybe this is the beginning of the end of the present economic/political system.. As the world transition from the monarchy due to the wide spread lack of food during the 17th and 18th centuries so will the lack of energy bring about another transition ..   just my take on this ..



I'd say food and water are still going to be the big problem-causers going forward.

Malthus was right, just with the wrong scale.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 23, 2008)

bump


----------



## Marc (Jun 23, 2008)

Haha, suckers.  I've been cutting firewood for the last two months.  Another three cords and I'll be using oil to heat my water only.

And hopefully by second year after I'll have an Eko or Tarm wood boiler online.  Fark oil.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 23, 2008)

Marc said:


> Haha, suckers.  I've been cutting firewood for the last two months.  Another three cords and I'll be using oil to heat my water only.
> 
> And hopefully by second year after I'll have an Eko or Tarm wood boiler online.  Fark oil.



 Hopefully you own your own woodlot --IF NOT  u got a short term solution 

--guess what a load of cull logs will cost next yr ?


----------



## Marc (Jun 23, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Hopefully you own your own woodlot --IF NOT  u got a short term solution
> 
> --guess what a load of cull logs will cost next yr ?



Wood = renewable, oil, not so much.

Yes, I'm sitting on about 150 acres of farmland and woodland that hasn't been trimmed in 30 years.

However, a lot of people I know get green logs dropped off free of charge by tree service companies in the area that look to dump them in a hurry because many don't have room to store them.

Also despite the ~150% increase in the price of oil over the last two years, cord wood prices have not risen in step with them.  People are still too lazy and/or don't have the facilities to burn wood.  It's a method of heating that will always be behind the no labor types (fossil fuels, solar, heat pumps/geothermal) and even low labor forms (wood pellets, corn pellets, other biomass).

Plus green hardwood logs are still dirt cheap, even around here.  I can have 8 - 10 cord in my yard next week if I wanted for $600.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 23, 2008)

Marc said:


> .  People are still too lazy and/or don't have the facilities to burn wood.  It's a method of heating that will always be behind the no labor types (fossil fuels, solar, heat pumps/geothermal) and even low labor forms (wood pellets, corn pellets, other biomass).




Renewable, sure, but still pretty dang hard on the environment. Carbon neutral, perhaps, but hell on particulates and NOX


----------



## Marc (Jun 23, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Renewable, sure, but still pretty dang hard on the environment. Carbon neutral, perhaps, but hell on particulates and NOX



New EPA woodstoves and the new wood boilers (Tarm, Eko, Econoburn, Woodgun, etc) are extremely efficient and clean burning.  Assuming one burns clean and well seasoned wood, as I intend to do.  It's the idiots with the outside wood boilers that burn green wood, pressure treated wood, tires, telephone poles, etc. that do the damage.

A correctly fired high efficiency boiler will produce no visible smoke and ~85% CO2 and H20.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 23, 2008)

Can someone explain "Bump for stoke" for me? Or the shortened version, "Bump"? Bumps in the 70's and 80's were snorted. What's the new definition?


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 24, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Can someone explain "Bump for stoke" for me? Or the shortened version, "Bump"? Bumps in the 70's and 80's were snorted. What's the new definition?



Same definition, really. "Bumping" moves an old thread back to the top of the lists, giving the post whore a momentary rush. The problem is, the more you do it, the more you like it, and the more you have to do it.

Kind of like bumps in the 80's, and bumps on the slopes. Just ask Greg.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 24, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Same definition, really. "Bumping" moves an old thread back to the top of the lists, giving the post whore a momentary rush. The problem is, the more you do it, the more you like it, and the more you have to do it.
> 
> Kind of like bumps in the 80's, and bumps on the slopes. Just ask Greg.



That really is a postwhore move, lol. Thanks.


----------



## Marc (Jun 24, 2008)

Also, "ttt" (to the top) is an acceptable alternative.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 24, 2008)

Marc said:


> Also, "ttt" (to the top) is an acceptable alternative.



Maybe we should just call a spade a spade and just substitute "bump" and "ttt" under the title of GSS'ing which is symbolic with post whoring


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 24, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Can someone explain "Bump for stoke" for me? Or the shortened version, "Bump"? Bumps in the 70's and 80's were snorted. What's the new definition?



people do bumps now as well..I personally haven't in months..


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 26, 2008)

Say hello to a record close in oil, 140/bbl


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 26, 2008)

Can you smell the fear?


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 26, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Say hello to a record close in oil, 140/bbl



hell yeah...less freaking hummers and SUVs..


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 26, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Can you smell the fear?



We've got plumbers coming in all week to give us quotes for upgrading our boilers. We're also considering switching from steam to HW or forced air.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 26, 2008)

So much for "King Dollar" and the much touted dollar rally and the bullshit, lying, painted-into-a-corner politicized Fed Reserve's hawkish rate hike talk and the ruling party for the past 8+ years and.......yeah, it's going to start sucking a lot worse. Just watch. 150/bbl will be here in 2 weeks or less.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> So much for "King Dollar" and the much touted dollar rally and the bullshit, lying, painted-into-a-corner politicized Fed Reserve's hawkish rate hike talk and the ruling party for the past 8+ years and.......yeah, it's going to start sucking a lot worse. Just watch. 150/bbl will be here in 2 weeks or less.



Just wait until we bomb Iran, too.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 26, 2008)

TEA PARTY any one ??


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 26, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Just wait until we bomb Iran, too.



My guess is October. A few more "False Flag" incidents and bombs away once Petraeus takes the reigns at CENTCOM in August.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 26, 2008)

Time to check gasbuddy.com

Still some sub-$4 a gallon gas in the GSS hood...but I saw $4.19 and $4.29 down in Philly yesterday..so I have a feeling it will be up to those numbers here soon...I better top off again today..


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> My guess is October. A few more "False Flag" incidents and bombs away once Petraeus takes the reigns at CENTCOM in August.



I've been trying to decide when it's going to be. October might be a good bet, but I think September may be more likely. The RNC is Sept 1-4, so later that week is my bet.


----------



## wa-loaf (Jun 26, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> I've been trying to decide when it's going to be. October might be a good bet, but I think September may be more likely. The RNC is Sept 1-4, so later that week is my bet.



No, It'll be November. They'll want to wait to see who wins. Obama and they'll do it so he doesn't have a choice but to deal it. McCain and they may wait until he takes office. Either way Israel will do the dirty work for us.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Just wait until we bomb Iran, too.



Then what $250/barrel?


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Israel will do the dirty work in this one not us .. the only way to take the facilities out is with a ground assault with tactical nucs .. the major facilities are deep underground.. so I hear.



Israel can't do it without us- they'll have to refuel their planes, which means the tankers will have to orbit in Iraqi airspace, which means we have to give permission. Their SAR helicopters will have to stage out of Iraq, too. If we let Israel do it, then we're in double trouble- helping Israel AND bombing Iran. If we just do it ourselves, then we're still Israel's handmaiden, but we did it ourselves.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2008)

I think if we were to bomb Iran....I'm packing up and moving to switzerland.  I'm tired of this crap


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 26, 2008)

Why do you think were trying to ram thru the SOFA with Iraq? We want to control Iraq's airspace.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think if we were to bomb Iran....I'm packing up and moving to switzerland.  I'm tired of this crap



http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/24/75-threatening-to-move-to-canada/


----------



## bigbog (Jun 26, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> I'm  venting here but ,if we can't ratchet up our technological intellect and the intellectual and financial  capital  to rationally and systematicall deliver BETTER results on alternatives  - it may be time to seriously consider nationalizing the Greed hog oil corps  C'mon guys alternatives are no longer a debate its time  @ $6 /gal to FIND A SOLUTION NOW
> WE NEED REAL LEADERSHIP AND SOON or we suffer second tier status within a generation


Sorry so late Warp....
I bought Toyota Corollas from 1973 to 1995.  Have seen several _Smart_-cars, among others...Kia Spectra, etc.  The Hybrids are in their infancy, but they're here to stay.  I'm waiting with my 93' Accord to see how Toyota's doing with the Prius line.
The American auto makers have always been late....too many levels of Supervisors/VPs with giant salaries to affect changes.
We can and will get off, as much as possible, of fossil fuels....too much monopoly to big oil...and out of sight prices...  I think it's going to be interesting to watch WallStreet and big oil prices....when next year's hybrids are on the shelves.   It's all about speculation.  It was in 73'.  Tankers just sat off both coasts waiting for WallStreet and the "OK" from the oil CEOs for profits.

$.01


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/24/75-threatening-to-move-to-canada/



Homey get out with that honky talk


----------



## snoseek (Jun 26, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think if we were to bomb Iran....I'm packing up and moving to switzerland.  I'm tired of this crap



I've been trying like hell to get my woman to warm up to this idea for a long time. Switzerland is my exact pic too!!!! I spent almost a year over in Europe and whenever anyone asked where I was from I told them Nova Scotia..... except when in Isreal.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I've been trying like hell to get my woman to warm up to this idea for a long time. Switzerland is my exact pic too!!!! I spent almost a year over in Europe and whenever anyone asked where I was from I told them Nova Scotia..... except when in Isreal.



you know, I was very close to heading off to New Zealand indefinitely about 4 years ago.  Essentially you need to make your move there pre age 30 or they want no part of you unless you're a doctor.  Once over age 30 you have to deposit 300K in a New Zealand bank to demonstrate legitimate interest in being a productive member of society as apparently their social programs are a real draw and a lot of dead beats go there. 

I wonder what the restrictions are for relocating to a country like Switzerland.  

end of day, I'll probably never leave New England again.  I did my four years away from here.  Family and sense of place are strong despite all the BS I/we put up with as US citizens that often lead me to believe there might be better options out there.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jun 27, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I wonder how well the ski season is going down there this summer? ... I will have to google it and try to find out.



Emigrating to Switzerland is difficult and citizenship is nearly impossible without a ton of money and connections. Think Mark Rich, Clinton's Pardon Poster Boy. That kinda money.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jul 2, 2008)

Here's a new twist on gas as a currency

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0702081gas1.html


----------



## KingM (Jul 2, 2008)

Have you guys seen the old movie White Christmas? Those guys rode the train to Vermont to come up and ski. Imagine that, train service.

I'm of the opinion that sooner or later we're going to have to rebuild that national rail network that we so foolishly tore up because gas was so cheap. It's going to be expensive.


----------



## Moe Ghoul (Jul 3, 2008)

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200807/NAT20080703a.html

More oil related whackiness emerging. I guess they'll be sacrificing virgins when it hits 150

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200807/NAT20080703a.html


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jul 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Here's a new twist on gas as a currency
> 
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0702081gas1.html



 H'mm a piece of GASS  -----------------my bad


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## deadheadskier (Jul 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200807/NAT20080703a.html
> 
> More oil related whackiness emerging. I guess they'll be sacrificing virgins when it hits 150
> 
> http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200807/NAT20080703a.html




I won't get into religion other than to say I don't partake

That said, I'd make time on Sundays if it meant $2.50 gas again.  :lol:   It's not too much to ask is it?  Heck, January 07' the price was $2.17.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 6, 2008)

I paid $3.83 is Fredericksburg Virginia this morning..here in PA..gas is at or below what it was 8 days ago...why is that with oil prices at record highs???  Why is there such a large lag?


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 6, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I paid $3.83 is Fredericksburg Virginia this morning..here in PA..gas is at or below what it was 8 days ago...why is that with oil prices at record highs???  Why is there such a large lag?



Comparing states is like apple and oranges. There are some regulations in effect that prevent gas stations from jacking prices up exponentially and how frequently. Additionally, the price of oil is a "futures" price, so the gas you pump today is from oil bought in the past at a lower price.


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## ctenidae (Jul 7, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Comparing states is like apple and oranges. There are some regulations in effect that prevent gas stations from jacking prices up exponentially and how frequently. Additionally, the price of oil is a "futures" price, so the gas you pump today is from oil bought in the past at a lower price.



You also get a supply/demand dynamic that's different from that for oil. In anticipation of higher demand, refineries up the amount of gas they produce and store it. If the demand doesn't happen, then there's an oversupply, if only briefly. Just before the 4th, oil stocks were down, but gas stocks were up. Gas prices have resumed their inexhorable climb, don't you worry.


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 7, 2008)

filled up my 07 Saab today:  gross amt $62 @$4.42 gal  but  with Price Chopper card it was $55 or $3.92-------------- got 32 mpg this tank


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## deadheadskier (Jul 7, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> $4.69 for premium in town ..



I'm assuming that's in Kittery?  Why not save 30 cents a gallon and buy your gas in NH where you work?

Regular unleaded can still be found for $3.95 round here


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 8, 2008)

oldsnowboarderme said:


> 90% Of.. Oh They Dropped Back To $4.59.. The $4.69 Must Have Been The Holiday Weekend Special Price..



Bastids


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## drjeff (Jul 17, 2008)

Lets see if this rally down in crude prices can continue for a few more days!

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/17/markets/oil/index.htm?postversion=2008071715


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 17, 2008)

options expiration and technical sell off. If it holds 129, up we go. Based on the dollar action tonite so far, I'm betting a flat day in oil tomorrow, and a resumption up next week. I put my chips on black.


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## ctenidae (Jul 17, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> options expiration and technical sell off. If it holds 129, up we go. Based on the dollar action tonite so far, I'm betting a flat day in oil tomorrow, and a resumption up next week. I put my chips on black.



I don't know. Britney Spears is due for a ruling on her custody case soon, "So You Think You Can Dance" is about to lose the first member of the top ten, and the guy with huge biceps one HoH on Big Brother. Anything could happen.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 17, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> I don't know. Britney Spears is due for a ruling on her custody case soon, "So You Think You Can Dance" is about to lose the first member of the top ten, and the guy with huge biceps one HoH on Big Brother. Anything could happen.



True dat. That's called a traders edge. Think I heard that on FAUX biz channel today, lol. Or maybe it was Pisani on CNBC, collective cluelessness is rampant. Lotsa bottom calling the past 2 days.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 17, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Gas dropped in price by 30 cents a gallon today in town ..



man that gas station of yours in Kittery has got to have the wackiest pricing system out there.


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## ctenidae (Jul 18, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> True dat. That's called a traders edge. Think I heard that on FAUX biz channel today, lol. Or maybe it was Pisani on CNBC, collective cluelessness is rampant. Lotsa bottom calling the past 2 days.



You see what the oil drop is doiong to Apache, Anadarko, and Chesapeake? Getting beat up like we won't be needing natural gas next year. Fools. Great buying opportunitiy, though.


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## Marc (Jul 18, 2008)

Hope it doesn't get too expensive to fill up my chainsaw.


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 18, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> True dat. That's called a traders edge. Think I heard that on FAUX biz channel today, lol. Or maybe it was Pisani on CNBC, collective cluelessness is rampant. Lotsa bottom calling the past 2 days.



Agreed  My current mantra -- "Whatever THEY say it IS:---------IT ISN"T "


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 18, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> You see what the oil drop is doiong to Apache, Anadarko, and Chesapeake? Getting beat up like we won't be needing natural gas next year. Fools. Great buying opportunitiy, though.



Looks like oil/gas is waiting for the next headline to take it up or down. Global recession fears= lower prices. Weather, inventories and geopolitics (the usual suspects ) =higher prices.


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## ctenidae (Jul 18, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Looks like oil/gas is waiting for the next headline to take it up or down. Global recession fears= lower prices. Weather, inventories and geopolitics (the usual suspects ) =higher prices.



Inventories and politics concern me a lot more than recession. With refineries running at 97% capacity globally, there's not much slack for diruptions of any kind.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 18, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Inventories and politics concern me a lot more than recession. With refineries running at 97% capacity globally, there's not much slack for diruptions of any kind.



about the only thing I would support in terms of Federal hand outs to oil companies is for new refinery development.


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## ctenidae (Jul 18, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> about the only thing I would support in terms of Federal hand outs to oil companies is for new refinery development.



Over the past 25 years, 1 premit for a new refinery has been submitted. The economics are brutal- margins are on the order of 5-10 cents per gallon, demand and suplpy are volatile, lots of problems. 

Trouble is, new refineries would help, if there were extra crude to run through them, and there's not.


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## bigbog (Jul 18, 2008)

*Mass Market!..??...*

So what are the true _*Conditions*_ that are leading to higher, runaway prices eh'??  ..and who is controlling these conditions..?
Sure wish the mass media would take the plunge and do a little reporting...instead of chearleading..(personal)

Consider:
1)  Big oil person becomes President. (Candidate is not questioned by Mass Media on issues prior to election, cleanly?? won)
2)  President's country makes new enemies via President's policies/threats/control-of-mass-media.
3)  Enemies of US produce threats to oil supply(pipelines, shipping security...etc).
4)  Threats to oil supply fuel speculation on Wall Street.
5)  Speculation on WallStreet produces high, runaway prices.
Question #1 of the day:
*Will President/Washington attempt to destroy R&D Incentives towards development of alternative energy for various sectors of life for public?, thus making public prisoners to Big Oil's whims?
Question #2 of the day:
*Does the Administration want to decrease world tensions, thus bringing about lower risk to oil supply, thus lowering speculation on Wall Street?
Answer to #1 and #2:
_*Stay Tuned....*_   ???

>Over the past 25 years, 1 premit for a new refinery has been submitted. The economics are brutal- margins are on the order of 5-10 cents >per gallon, demand and suplpy are volatile, lots of problems.
Lots of greed! in energy..with noone to guard the chicken coop.
Total Capitalism.....Dubya' loves it!


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## ctenidae (Jul 18, 2008)

bigbog said:


> Question of the day:
> *Will President/Washington attempt to destroy R&D Incentives towards development of alternative energy for various sectors of life for public?, thus making public prisoners to Big Oil's whims?
> Answer:
> _*Stay Tuned....*_



We already are prisoners to oil, and Big Oil and Washington had little to do with that. Our captivity started around October 1, 1908, and in large part grew by our own choices.


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 18, 2008)

all of which begs the question: ------------------------ ITs TIME for  Change


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 18, 2008)

Single major reason for high commodity prices. Too much money being printed. Everyone's running around playing the blame game and the problem lies with Congress and the Fed, and a vetoless WH.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2008)

Station in town that was selling gas just the other day for $3.97 was $3.84 today.  steezy......:grin:


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## ctenidae (Jul 21, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Single major reason for high commodity prices. Too much money being printed. Everyone's running around playing the blame game and the problem lies with Congress and the Fed, and a vetoless WH.



Graphing oil prices in USD vs EUR yields some interesting info, especially if you overlay the FX rates.

Is there a way to post a non-hosted excel chart?


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## wa-loaf (Jul 21, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Graphing oil prices in USD vs EUR yields some interesting info, especially if you overlay the FX rates.
> 
> Is there a way to post a non-hosted excel chart?



Just take a screenshot and post the image.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Station in town that was selling gas just the other day for $3.97 was $3.84 today.  steezy......:grin:



down to $3.81 today :grin:  these are the good ole days :lol:

I know some on here wish for prices to head north of $5 to quicken the switch to alternative fuels.  Unfortunately right now, my wallet doesn't like that idea.


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## ctenidae (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm reading "Oil on the Brain" at the moment. I highly recommend it to everyone.


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## Paul (Jul 23, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Station in town that was selling gas just the other day for $3.97 was $3.84 today.  steezy......:grin:





deadheadskier said:


> down to $3.81 today :grin:  these are the good ole days :lol:
> 
> I know some on here wish for prices to head north of $5 to quicken the switch to alternative fuels.  Unfortunately right now, my wallet doesn't like that idea.



I hate you Ryan.

I was all excited about the big drop to $4.17 today. Well.... $4.17 if you use CASH. :uzi:


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## drjeff (Jul 23, 2008)

Paul said:


> I hate you Ryan.
> 
> I was all excited about the big drop to $4.17 today. Well.... $4.17 if you use CASH. :uzi:




Gotta just love CT!


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## Paul (Jul 23, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Gotta just love CT!



Whatever happened to lowering taxes due to the bajillion dollars the state was going to make on slot machines?


God I hate it here in South Massachusetts


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## roark (Jul 23, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Graphing oil prices in USD vs EUR yields some interesting info, especially if you overlay the FX rates.
> 
> Is there a way to post a non-hosted excel chart?


I'm sure there are many others, but This Site has some good stuff.


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## roark (Jul 23, 2008)

roark said:


> I'm sure there are many others, but This Site has some good stuff.


..


> The main interesting point here is the the recent increase in oil prices is not apparent in the euro prices for gasoline, but is very clear from the US dollar prices. In euros, the price of a gallon of gasoline has not changed substantially (on average) since June 2005. In dollar prices, it has been increasing rapidly since at least December 2007.


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## drjeff (Jul 23, 2008)

Paul said:


> Whatever happened to lowering taxes due to the bajillion dollars the state was going to make on slot machines?



Just remember, revenue to a politician is like crack to an addict


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2008)

Paul said:


> I hate you Ryan.
> 
> I was all excited about the big drop to $4.17 today. Well.... $4.17 if you use CASH. :uzi:



Filled up for $3.67 today :grin:

now if that wack job in Iran would just pipe down and the wackos in Nigeria would stop messing with Royal Shell


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## roark (Jul 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Filled up for $3.67 today :grin:


 Grrrrrr, still nearly $4 in SW NH.:uzi:


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## drjeff (Jul 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Filled up for $3.67 today :grin:
> 
> now if that wack job in Iran would just pipe down and the wackos in Nigeria would stop messing with Royal Shell



+2


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 29, 2008)

Crap its freakin  $ 4.28  here -- thanks NYS


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 29, 2008)

Before we were all topping our tanks off..now we're holding out for lower prices...Even the expensive station is $3.93...wow..I wonder what I'll do this week since my fillup will only be 48 dollars instead of 50 dollars...maybe buy a gatorade G2...


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Before we were all topping our tanks off..now we're holding out for lower prices...Even the expensive station is $3.93...wow..I wonder what I'll do this week since my fillup will only be 48 dollars instead of 50 dollars...maybe buy a gatorade G2...



perhaps I shoulda waited, but I was on empty.  same station was down a penny on the way back into town after work :lol:


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## ctenidae (Jul 30, 2008)

Here's a scary chart- the spot price of crude oil (Cushing, OK West Texas Intermediate, to be exact) and refinery capacity utilization.

Refineries run near 90% capacity all the time (with maintenance, that's effectively 100% capacity), regardless of the price of oil. So, not much chance that the refiners are holding back production to keep prices high.

Edit: Sourcing- Data compiled from the Energy Information Agency


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 30, 2008)

Questions :

1. Who Supplies the data ?
2. Who VERIFIES the data?


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 30, 2008)

Shrub is threatening to use his unused veto pen on the ant-oil spec bill and Congress is on siesta with an unpassed energy bill collecting dust on the floor. Sounds bullish for oil and gold.


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## ERJ-145CA (Jul 30, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> perhaps I shoulda waited, but I was on empty.  same station was down a penny on the way back into town after work :lol:



Wow, you would have saved a whopping 10 or 20 cents.  If only you knew.


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## ctenidae (Jul 30, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Questions :
> 
> 1. Who Supplies the data ?
> 2. Who VERIFIES the data?



Data is sourced from the Energy Information Agency, which is a pretty reliable source- no poitical or business axes to grind, just data. They get spot prices from NYMEX or whichever exchange the product is traded on, and refinery data is from teh refineries- they're required to report a whole load of data, with some pretty serious problems if the data is fudged.


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 30, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Data is sourced from the Energy Information Agency, which is a pretty reliable source- no poitical or business axes to grind, just data. They get spot prices from NYMEX or whichever exchange the product is traded on, and refinery data is from teh refineries- they're required to report a whole load of data, with some pretty serious problems if the data is fudged.


 


C10 NO disrespect intended AND  I'M SURE THAT YOU GUYS DO SOME DUE DILIGENCE 

 but-- i'm still skeptical about the veracity of MOST"official data" . Penalties you say - yeah right 

Just simply  Too many Watergates , Irangates , Enron's  Exxon Mobils , Bear Stearns,  Indy Macs , Freddie Mac's . Fannie Mae's,  S& L  WHO HAD official data sets THAT WERE cooked  AND BOGUS TO THE MAX

 not to mention WMD,   etc etc - -U get my point ----------------TOO MANY LIARS IN HIGH PLACES  and EVERYTHING seems to be " up for grabs" ALL the time. 

Yep color me cynic


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## ctenidae (Jul 30, 2008)

Cynic's good. My job is to poke holes in people's claims and data (and it's data that's supposed to make them lots of money). Check out the EIA website, though- www.eia.gov. I think you'll find it rather reliable.


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 30, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Cynic's good. My job is to poke holes in people's claims and data (and it's data that's supposed to make them lots of money). Check out the EIA website, though- www.eia.gov. I think you'll find it rather reliable.



Thanks for the link  C10,  i'll check it out tomorrow am 


Keep POKING Holes !!! ( in data that is )


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Dec 20, 2008)

It's like $1.59 a gallon in my hood!!!


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## tcharron (Dec 20, 2008)

AWESOME thread to bump!  :-D


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## ERJ-145CA (Dec 20, 2008)

1.51 around here, one place had 1.49.


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## andyzee (Dec 20, 2008)

Saw 1.41 today, we should all  send OPEC a thank you for cutting production. Last time they cut production, the big slide in gas prices started. Now they got production, oil hit a 5 year low. Oh, good bump GSS.


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## hardline (Dec 21, 2008)

1.35 yesterday. we will hit a dollar before the end of january.


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## snoseek (Dec 21, 2008)

We're all just a bunch of puppets.


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## YardSaleDad (Dec 21, 2008)

I bet the people who have been laid off are so happy that gas is cheap again.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Dec 21, 2008)

YardSaleDad said:


> I bet the people who have been laid off are so happy that gas is cheap again.



What's that supposed to mean..we should all be happy..


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