# Searching for and choosing a college



## hammer (Aug 6, 2009)

Just wondering what the current approaches are to picking a college...it's been over 20 years since I graduated so I'm sure a lot has changed.

My son's entering his junior year in HS...he's looking at Biology/Pre-Med programs.  Grades are OK (_mostly_ As and Bs) and he's taking higher level courses (2 AP classes this year).  While he's not Harvard or MIT material (neither was I), I believe he should be able to get into a decent school.

Any thoughts on state schools (in out case UMass) vs. private?  Larger or smaller?

When do people usually start the campus tours?  I'm thinking this fall will be the time...


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

Start ASAP with school tours.

Work on the whole package--grades, extracurriculars, community service, etc.  

Begin narrowing down the list--reach schools, etc.  Get in touch with alum who are friends.


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## hammer (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Start ASAP with school tours.


Will do...this fall will be busy.  Didn't plan on any tours during the summer.



thetrailboss said:


> Work on the whole package--grades, extracurriculars, community service, etc.


Aside from scouts, my son's not into activities...not that has parents haven't tried. :roll:  I guess I also have a problem with doing additional activities in the name of "college resume padding".

I'd rather see him get real solid grades this year and work to get the best test scores he can.  If he can do outside stuff on top of that, great...but realistically I don't see that happening.



thetrailboss said:


> Begin narrowing down the list--reach schools, etc.  Get in touch with alum who are friends.


Will do in conjunction with tours.


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## St. Bear (Aug 6, 2009)

First establish what type of school environment he would feel comfortable in.  Huge university with 10,000+ kids, huge lecture classes, etc. or a small college?  Urban school (with little or no campus at all) vs. a more traditional campus feel.

This is helpful because it can knock off a ton of schools quickly.  Personally when I was looking, I knew I wanted a smaller school with a "college town" feel, so I immediately knocked off schools like UNH, UMASS, BU, BC, etc.


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## Puck it (Aug 6, 2009)

Just apply to a couple that are a reach, a couple of safe schools that you know you will get in then a majoroity that definite candidates. The going number is about 10-12. My son got into all but two if the schools he applied to. They were BU and Northeastern and since he is a white male from MA, those were low chance looking the demographics of incoming students. He had picked UNH but picked UCONN after getting in there late. Small private colleges are huritng for students. He got a ot of academic aid from those type of school. He got $20K a year from alma mater but said it was too far. Merrimack gave $19K and would increase the amount based on the increase in the overall cost each year. It really is a crap shoot. My son got into UCONN and another student (female) from his school did not and she was a better student. She then got into Providence and he was wait listed and then he got in there also. One school even gave money to him before he even applied. Take all the free apps you get two. I think there was about 4 or 5 schools that had free application or waived the fee for early application(UVM).

The aid that you get if you make over $100K a year is nothing but loans.  The amount he qualified for was only $5K out of $36K bill.  The rest is expected to come from us.  This gets my goat.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

Will he be an Eagle Scout?


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## hammer (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Will he be an Eagle Scout?


Tough to tell...he started scouting a few years late so he'll be real close to the 18th birthday deadline.

He is in the Order of the Arrow, but I don't know if that means anything on a college application...


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

hammer said:


> Tough to tell...he started scouting a few years late so he'll be real close to the 18th birthday deadline.
> 
> He is in the Order of the Arrow, but I don't know if that means anything on a college application...



Eagle is the real deal for admissions.  OA is good, but Eagle says something.  I'd light a fire under his....


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## mondeo (Aug 6, 2009)

I don't think public vs private is that big a deal in itself. There are some public schools that are better in a lot of stuff than most private schools, so it's really just a question of cost vs. quality. Also, don't worry all that much about sticker shock with private schools; my theory is that the very high tuitions are basically there to allow the schools to subsidise somewhat the education of those who can't afford the really high cost through those that can. I don't think I knew anyone when I went to Clarkson that paid full tuition, many were $10K+ a year in scholarships from the school.

Large or small is basically a question of feel. Compare UMich to Clarkson. About 10x the size, suburban vs. middle of nowhere, public vs. private, but quality of education is probably about the same.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

Agree with the first place being large or small in narrowing down what you want.  

Also need to decide if you want rural or urban.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  The former may be "too boring" for some, but the latter, although more exciting, can have too many distractions and have higher costs of living.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 6, 2009)

Sorry no real help here----I went to a small private college only because they needed a tall white kid who couldn't jump on their hoops team. Not the best reason to go to college but it's the truth.


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## hammer (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Eagle is the real deal for admissions.  OA is good, but Eagle says something.  I'd light a fire under his....


That's what I figured, thanks.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 6, 2009)

Post up the list when you have it narrowed down. Some of us might be alumni and could help out at that point.


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 6, 2009)

Get the family and the student's financial situation correctly situated so that what doesn't need to be seen when financial aid is being determined is adequately out of sight. Typically, private colleges have more money and are more liberal in distributing financial aid dollars.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

Remember Hammer, of great importance is to make sure your son selects a school in close proximity to where YOU want to ski often.


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## bvibert (Aug 6, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Remember Hammer, of great importance is to make sure your son selects a school in close proximity to where YOU want to ski often.



This is most important.


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## St. Bear (Aug 6, 2009)

I've always felt that the most important thing you can do for your kids is live vicariously through them.  It shows them that you really care about them.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> I've always felt that the most important thing you can do for your kids is live vicariously through them.  It shows them that you really care about them.



I would say that would be bad for a marriage once kids reach college age  :lol:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2009)

hammer said:


> Just wondering what the current approaches are to picking a college...it's been over 20 years since I graduated so I'm sure a lot has changed.
> 
> My son's entering his junior year in HS...he's looking at Biology/Pre-Med programs.  Grades are OK (_mostly_ As and Bs) and he's taking higher level courses (2 AP classes this year).  While he's not Harvard or MIT material (neither was I), I believe he should be able to get into a decent school.
> 
> ...




My Mom works in admissions, and most do campus tours and interviews the summer between Junior and Senior years of college.  I would buy your son a college guide and let him start to see where he wants to go.  I feel that you get out of your college education what you put into it but it's harder to slip through the cracks at smaller colleges because if you skip class, your professors actually notice.

I wanted to go to a college near skiing with a good business program.  My parentswanted me to stay on the east coast.  I visited Babson, University of New Hanmpshire, University of Vermont and SUNY Albany.  I liked Babson alot but the 80-20 Male Female ratio killed it for me.  UNH was pretty nice but UVM won as Burlington is a sweet town, the campus is great with its own business school and very close to the best skiing in the east.  At the time..1997.it was about $20k+ a year for tuition/room and board..now it's about $35K for out of state.  Luckily my grandparents paid for my college..if I had to pay for it myself I would have stayed in state for $10k or less a year..anyway that's my inflation adjusted 2 cents..


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## legalskier (Aug 6, 2009)

There are many college guide books on the market, but one in particular stood out for me after our reference librarian pointed it out: "Rugg's Recommendations on the Colleges." He had it in three-ring binder form, but it’s also available in a bound version. Your library might have it or can get it for you. (Here's their website, where you can get the updates as well as the book: http://www.ruggsrecommendations.com)  What distinguishes it from the other guides is that it doesn’t just classify schools alphabetically or by state/region as others do, but looks at colleges the way you and I would.  For example, some of the school categories are: "Most expensive/least expensive state colleges," "Quiet & safe colleges," "Social butterfly colleges," "Magic (dream) colleges," "Big colleges that care," "Under-rated colleges." It also has advice re: financing/financial aid and the admissions process, as well as a Q & A format of questions submitted by people in our shoes. 
Visiting the schools in person is invaluable, as a student can get a definite sense of appeal simply by walking around campus and asking questions, be it large state university or small private college.  Also check out the area surrounding the school, as many students eventually will live off campus. But don’t wait, because the time will fly by–start now. Before you go take a few minutes and review the school’s website; most are valuable sources of information. The more schools he can visit, the better. When senior year commences in a few weeks, get to know your child’s guidance counselor and keep in touch through the process with any questions you have. Good luck!


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## severine (Aug 6, 2009)

I don't have a lot of advice as far as selecting because in the end, despite being in the top of my class, I went the slow and painful route--4 years to get my Associate's degree at a local Community College and I'm still working on my B.A. at UCONN at the age of nearly-32. I will say that ultimately, cost is what determined that I would stay close to home and do things the way I did. I toured Northeastern and WNEC (two very different schools). Even stayed at Ithaca one weekend while my cousin attended there. I did get into WNEC and probably would have gotten into the others but I didn't apply. My parents weren't paying anything, wouldn't get loans, and their income severely held me back from being able to finance school myself (even though they wouldn't pay since I was under a certain age, their income counted for financial aid). It's AWESOME that you're willing to help your boy out because that opens a lot more doors for him.

Urban-vs-suburban, big-vs-small are good places to start. Don't worry about prestige too much--it's really not that important in the end. Be aware that many schools are facing budgetary issues right now and cutting back on aid + raising tuition. I'm pretty lucky that I got the grants I did this year because it wasn't looking too good for it initially. Apply early for financial aid--get your income tax done ASAP and get that FAFSA in by March 1st. The earlier you apply, the more likely your kid will get aid. I would recommend your son looking into scholarships and applying for any he might qualify--that's where your extra-curricular activities come in. Many require certain activities/backgrounds in order to qualify. I didn't do many activities so I didn't apply for any scholarships when I was in high school--and now, I qualify even less. But they do make a difference. 

Once you've narrowed down the basics, start those tours and get the applications in! If your son has a good idea of what he's looking for, he has the grades that he shouldn't have to apply to 10-12 schools. Pick a few he likes and apply ASAP. No need in multiplying work that isn't necessary.

Good luck!


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## ckofer (Aug 8, 2009)

My son is starting his senior year now. We did some tours this summer. He favors downtown Boston so far (Wentworth, architecture). One thing he should know right now: the folks who come visit you at high school college fairs are the ones who actually approve/review applications. They should be respected accordingly. If possible, secure interviews with those folks during campus tours. Send thank you notes.

I agree that it's worth viewing different campuses just to see his reflections on campus size and feel. Money is an important issue and the aid packages vary. Don't be shy with the questions there. SAT scores are very important in general.

Good luck!


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## madskier6 (Aug 9, 2009)

My daughter is also going to be a senior this year.  She has a few schools in mind but needs to identify a few more target schools.  She has done a few campus visits but we will be doing much more of that this fall.  

I'm somewhat intimidated by the expected cost of tuition but I've been told it can all be financed through scholarships, grants & loans.  Looks like I'll be paying off loans for years.  Someone told me, however, that it doesn't make sense to save money for college at the expense of saving for retirement.  You can borrow money for college tuition.  You can't borrow money for retirement!


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## severine (Aug 9, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> I'm somewhat intimidated by the expected cost of tuition but I've been told it can all be financed through scholarships, grants & loans.  Looks like I'll be paying off loans for years.  Someone told me, however, that it doesn't make sense to save money for college at the expense of saving for retirement.  You can borrow money for college tuition.  You can't borrow money for retirement!



Just remember that if your child will be financing any of this, they are limited as to how much they can borrow each year--and usually it's less than the cost of tuition+housing. They can borrow more as they move up (juniors & seniors can borrow more than fresh/sophomores and graduate level work is allowed more) but they really need their parents' help these days, unless they're going to state school and commuting. I highly recommend it as it saves A LOT of money but many will not find this a desirable option and you do miss out on the "other" stuff that way.


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## madskier6 (Aug 9, 2009)

severine said:


> Just remember that if your child will be financing any of this, they are limited as to how much they can borrow each year--and usually it's less than the cost of tuition+housing. They can borrow more as they move up (juniors & seniors can borrow more than fresh/sophomores and graduate level work is allowed more) but they really need their parents' help these days, unless they're going to state school and commuting. I highly recommend it as it saves A LOT of money but many will not find this a desirable option and you do miss out on the "other" stuff that way.



Can both the parents & the child take out student loans to pay for the whole cost?  Or can only the student do the borrowing?


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## severine (Aug 9, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> Can both the parents & the child take out student loans to pay for the whole cost?  Or can only the student do the borrowing?



Both can. Many parents aren't aware of the limitations on how much students can borrow though, which is why I'm mentioning it.


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## 4aprice (Aug 9, 2009)

hammer said:


> Just wondering what the current approaches are to picking a college...it's been over 20 years since I graduated so I'm sure a lot has changed.
> 
> My son's entering his junior year in HS...he's looking at Biology/Pre-Med programs.  Grades are OK (_mostly_ As and Bs) and he's taking higher level courses (2 AP classes this year).  While he's not Harvard or MIT material (neither was I), I believe he should be able to get into a decent school.
> 
> ...



We're in the same boat and just discussed this.  This fall we are going to visit some schools in the Boston area with our daughter.  She wants to go into early child education and developement.  She currently works in the Childrens programs at Camelback and according to all feed back did quite well.  

I want her to go away to school for the experience.  My wife would probably prefer she stay local.  Boston seems like a good compromise.  My son has his eyes on the Rockies but he's still got aways to go.  I'm going to suggest that he go into some sort of recreational (maybe ski area) management.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 9, 2009)

the single most important aspect is the "goodness of fit " aspect of higher education . The young person should be in the RIGHT environment  which translates into programmatic quality AND the social ambiance in which they are  at a peer levelotherwise problems will ensue . If the student is NOT comfortable in BOTH dimensions SLIPPAGE CAN OFTEN OCCUR which can cost both time and $$$ 

As a retired college president /.dean /professor with over 35  years in the business my other advice is to PUT YOUR $$$$ ON YOUR HIGHEST DEGREE . A good student will thrive WHERE they FEEL most comfortable . 

Good luck these are often stressful times but with adequete and accurate knowledge of SELF  and a realistic attitude when evaluating FA pkgs ( ratio of gift to payback aid) things work out .

Final note : read this twice ----------DO NOT BE HELICOPTER PARENTS , its the kids experience and responsibility to stretch and grow toward both intellectual and emotional maturity


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## madskier6 (Aug 9, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> As a retired college president /.dean /professor with over 35  years in the business my other advice is to PUT YOUR $$$$ ON YOUR HIGHEST DEGREE . A good student will thrive WHERE they FEEL most comfortable .



Great post & advice.  What exactly do you mean by "Put your $ on your highest degree"?  Please elaborate.


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 9, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> Great post & advice.  What exactly do you mean by "Put your $ on your highest degree"?  Please elaborate.



Specifically : If the the student has the aspiration / ability and committment to earn an ADVANCED degree (masters , doctorate, JD  whatever , MD )  thAT IS WHERE YOU SHOULD INVEST . The world is becoming increasingly a credentialized society requiring advanced study in order to accede to full professional potential , thus that is where one should put the greatest effort /resources etc . The good news is that there is often help too .

To further illustrate my point ABOUT THE NEED FOR ADVANCED DEGREES  , within the last 3 generations the sheer numbers of HS grads accessing higher education has risen from 10 % in my dAD'S GENERATION TO 30 % IN MY GENERATION  TO TODAY >70%


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## madskier6 (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation, Warp Daddy.  Makes sense to me.


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## riverc0il (Aug 9, 2009)

Warp has a good point on increasing demand of advanced degrees. Bachelors is the new high school diploma and Masters is the new Bachelors. It is total crap because (IMNSHO) the education system is dumbing down a bit and there are a lot of fools who graduate with various degrees and get jobs because of a degree versus an equally if not better candidate that had fewer paper credentials. My dad dealt with this at his place of employment before he retired when he reached a ceiling but didn't want to get the advanced degree to get a higher placed job even though he knew significantly more practical knowledge than the folks managing his department. Crazy world but I won't digress by sharing my thoughts on how typical hiring and interviewing practices are severely flawed. 

Suffice to say that it is a lot easier to move around and eventually up with a fancy looking piece of paper, especially advanced degrees. In many fields, especially the hard sciences, those advanced degrees are absolute because of the knowledge. Though even in soft sciences such as Psychology, you won't even be considered without an advanced degree regardless of experience or knowledge because Bachelors degrees in those fields are a dime a dozen.

Any ways, always a good idea to look at programs that offer a five year Bachelors/Masters combo if there is even the remotest thought of going on for further education. It is very popular for institutions to offer five year programs for a BA/MA combo.

My generation was the first of many that won't do as well as their parents did. An advanced degree will certainly help level the playing field, especially for those in the up and coming generations in which professional positions are declining as servicing positions are increasing, even for the college educated. Though I say all this with only a BA, the ability to get a MA, and declining the option at the moment. Nothing wrong with only getting a BA but I think the point Warp was making is if the desire is there, then don't hold them back!


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 9, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Warp has a good point on increasing demand of advanced degrees. Bachelors is the new high school diploma and Masters is the new Bachelors. It is total crap because (IMNSHO) the education system is dumbing down a bit and there are a lot of fools who graduate with various degrees and get jobs because of a degree versus an equally if not better candidate that had fewer paper credentials. My dad dealt with this at his place of employment before he retired when he reached a ceiling but didn't want to get the advanced degree to get a higher placed job even though he knew significantly more practical knowledge than the folks managing his department. Crazy world but I won't digress by sharing my thoughts on how typical hiring and interviewing practices are severely flawed.
> 
> Suffice to say that it is a lot easier to move around and eventually up with a fancy looking piece of paper, especially advanced degrees. In many fields, especially the hard sciences, those advanced degrees are absolute because of the knowledge. Though even in soft sciences such as Psychology, you won't even be considered without an advanced degree regardless of experience or knowledge because Bachelors degrees in those fields are a dime a dozen.
> 
> ...



SPOT ON STEVE !!  One of the facts is that one should DO what they like BUT  LIKE what they do  or no amt of  $$$$$ or so called prestige will make them happy . For those seeking further evidence read Hertzberg's Theory of Motivational Hygene it explains why materialism and keeping up with the Jones will never make one  happy and frankly the Jones don't give a damn either


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## hammer (Aug 9, 2009)

Lots of good advice and discussion here...thanks to all. :beer:

Any biology majors here?  Advice on good schools in the area for biology?  My son wants to take up biology as a major, which I think will mean graduate school even if he decides not to go into med school afterward.


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## mondeo (Aug 9, 2009)

How grad work is approached varies massively based on what you're going for, though. Engineering and science masters tend to be paid through grants, where you're actually paid a living wage to get your masters/doctorate because you're either a TA or a research assistant. Docs and lawyers, on the other hand, get the pleasure of massive loans. If it's a degree that you can get a job with a B.S., there's a decent chance the employer will pick up the tab for the masters. I'm not paying a cent for my M.Eng, and won't for my MBA when I start working on that.


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## Philpug (Aug 9, 2009)

Scholarships are negotiable, we got an extra $4K a year by just asking. If a college wants your kid, they will find a way to get them there. Be open on your choices, where a college used to mean everything on a resume, it is now where you get your masters that carries more weight.


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## mondeo (Aug 9, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> My generation was the first of many that won't do as well as their parents did. An advanced degree will certainly help level the playing field, especially for those in the up and coming generations in which professional positions are declining as servicing positions are increasing, even for the college educated. Though I say all this with only a BA, the ability to get a MA, and declining the option at the moment. Nothing wrong with only getting a BA but I think the point Warp was making is if the desire is there, then don't hold them back!


And you hit on one of the issues without even realizing it. The more recent generations have had their heads fill with a "do what makes you happy" philosophy. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but when there's probably as many history majors as engineering majors graduating each year, wages are bound to drop. Part of the reason engineering jobs are being sent overseas is because of a fairly significant shortage of engineers in the US.


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## riverc0il (Aug 9, 2009)

mondeo said:


> And you hit on one of the issues without even realizing it. The more recent generations have had their heads fill with a "do what makes you happy" philosophy. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but when there's probably as many history majors as engineering majors graduating each year, wages are bound to drop. Part of the reason engineering jobs are being sent overseas is because of a fairly significant shortage of engineers in the US.


Indeed, I did not realize it. That is definitely a huge factor. I think I was going in the direction of increased percent of the population having access to higher education and getting more advanced degrees while simultaneously the floor is being cut out from underneath where those degrees could be applied to in the job market. The educational industry has done a great job in furthering higher education amongst more people with more diverse backgrounds and financial situations. It is a great thing that you don't need to be a white middle to upper classer to get a quality education. The unintended ramification is that as education has increased, qualifications for jobs have increased as well, while total number of jobs have decreased. A nasty inverse proportion in terms of ensuring everyone has access to a high quality good paying professional job.

But as mentioned, there are a LOT of fields out there where jobs are in high demand. Engineering of course is one and nursing and the heath care fields. These fields definitely require more effort and application and time investment to succeed at the Bachelor level than your typical liberal arts and business programs. And folks are rewarded for their efforts when they get out and are some of the few graduates that actually have jobs waiting for them. But it is true that these jobs have become less desirable in the "do what you want" generation.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 9, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> My daughter is also going to be a senior this year.  She has a few schools in mind but needs to identify a few more target schools.  She has done a few campus visits but we will be doing much more of that this fall.
> 
> I'm somewhat intimidated by the expected cost of tuition but I've been told it can all be financed through scholarships, grants & loans.  Looks like I'll be paying off loans for years.  Someone told me, however, that it doesn't make sense to save money for college at the expense of saving for retirement.  You can borrow money for college tuition.  You can't borrow money for retirement!



Future earnings still surpass the expense by a large margin...plus chicks dig edumacated dudes..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 9, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> SPOT ON STEVE !!  One of the facts is that one should DO what they like BUT  LIKE what they do  or no amt of  $$$$$ or so called prestige will make them happy . For those seeking further evidence read Hertzberg's Theory of Motivational Hygene it explains why materialism and keeping up with the Jones will never make one  happy and frankly the Jones don't give a damn either



I definitely want to read that..maybe it will explain why I'm lazy..


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## madskier6 (Aug 9, 2009)

mondeo said:


> If it's a degree that you can get a job with a B.S., there's a decent chance the employer will pick up the tab for the masters. I'm not paying a cent for my M.Eng, and won't for my MBA when I start working on that.



Yes but you just happen to work for an employer that has a great tuition/education program.  Not many other employers have such a good program so while some will pay for an advanced degree, not many will pay for multiple advanced degrees regardless of the subject matter.  You're very fortunate in that regard.


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## mondeo (Aug 9, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> Yes but you just happen to work for an employer that has a great tuition/education program.  Not many other employers have such a good program so while some will pay for an advanced degree, not many will pay for multiple advanced degrees regardless of the subject matter.  You're very fortunate in that regard.


Agreed, I've got probably the best education program in the country, it's essentially no questions asked. I could get an associates in basket weaving paid for as long as it's from an accredited college, and I can leave right afterward without any recourse. But my understanding is most large corporations will pay for education that applies to your job, and some smaller employers will as well.


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## riverc0il (Aug 10, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Agreed, I've got probably the best education program in the country, it's essentially no questions asked. I could get an associates in basket weaving paid for as long as it's from an accredited college, and I can leave right afterward without any recourse. But my understanding is most large corporations will pay for education that applies to your job, and some smaller employers will as well.



That is incredible, especially on the no recourse part. My business will pay for all job related tuition fees but require compensation back to the company if you leave within two years after the class is over (for masters, one year for bachelors). So a three year masters program would essentially be a five year commitment.


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## severine (Aug 10, 2009)

I used to work for a municipality and not only did they NOT offer tuition reimbursement, I was told in no uncertain terms that acquiring a degree (or additional degrees) would have no impact on my wages. They did pay for classes related directly to the department (like I started the Certification courses to become a Municipal Assessor and they paid for that or seminars that were directly-related to my office) but otherwise, zilch.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2009)

Not surprising given his background, but I think Warp has the right advice.  Pick the best fit, not necessarily the best school and make sure the choice will best position the student for advanced degree opportunities. Also be prepared that at 18, the student might think they know what they desire out of an education, but could end up with a completely different perspective once they enter school.


My experience was I applied to and was accepted to three schools: Skidmore, Saint Micheal's and the University of Vermont.  I 'thought' I wanted to go to a small liberal arts school.  I chose Skidmore because academically it was considered 'the best' of the three schools I was accepted to.  Saint Micheal's was the back up school if I didn't get into Skidmore.  University of Vermont was also a 'back up' bigger school should I change my mind on school type.

I went to Skidmore and HATED the tiny feel to it and limited programming.  I ended up taking two years off after that to beach bum / ski bum, but also establish residency so I could get in state tuition at University of Vermont, which I ended up enjoying far more than Skidmore.  The overall 'cost' of my education at UVM ended up being less than half that of Skidmore, but my overall experience ended up taking 6.5 years instead of 4.

One thing I will say is that even prior to looking at schools / programming, I think it would be highly beneficial to take a Myers / Briggs Type Indicator test.  Hammer, your son may really enjoy biology, but depending on his personality type, there may not be the career opportunity that is the best fit for him by focusing on biology in college.

good luck


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 10, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Not surprising given his background, but I think Warp has the right advice.  Pick the best fit, not necessarily the best school and make sure the choice will best position the student for advanced degree opportunities. Also be prepared that at 18, the student might think they know what they desire out of an education, but could end up with a completely different perspective once they enter school.
> 
> 
> My experience was I applied to and was accepted to three schools: Skidmore, Saint Micheal's and the University of Vermont.  I 'thought' I wanted to go to a small liberal arts school.  I chose Skidmore because academically it was considered 'the best' of the three schools I was accepted to.  Saint Micheal's was the back up school if I didn't get into Skidmore.  University of Vermont was also a 'back up' bigger school should I change my mind on school type.
> ...




EXCELLANT suggestion i used the MBTI for a plethora of functions including that which you mentioned . It was uswed for team bldg , corp strateic planning teams, roomate selection , used it for various other interpersonal and business related applications . Other powerful tools in clude the Leadership Opinion Questionairre (LOQ) and the Communications Style /Style Bias  work done by Wilson Learning Labs . Great stuff for specific /measureable and implementable feedback which shows the strength weakness paradox which exists in everyone and how to best leverage strength by flexing dominant style to meet the needs of your  ( work group, family or other relationship behaviours )   Prolly too long winded here but its REALLY good stuff ----------luved doing it with groups in training most absorbed this feedback like a humongous sponge


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## Geoff (Aug 10, 2009)

My experience was similar to deadheadskier except that I came to my senses before actually starting school.   I applied to all tiny liberal arts schools.   My dad went to Amherst for his undergrad and I was brainwashed into doing Amherst/Williiams/Weslyan, Bates/Bowdoin/Colby.  I applied to UMass as my emergency school and UVM on a lark.   After I got accepted and started taking a harder look at the schools, I concluded that there was no way I could go to a college that was smaller than my high school and I'd probably starve to death with a liberal arts degree.  At the time, UMass wasn't a very good school so I sort of fell into UVM as the only possible alternative.

Today, economics tend to drive the decision for a lot of people.  UMass is now really tough to get in to.  Since they can be selective, the quality of many of their programs has improved dramatically.   For many people, the first two years in a local state school followed by a transfer to the big state school is the only viable option.  In my opinion, you can probably get just as good an education in your intro classes at a local state school as you can at one of the elite universities.   It's not like calculus or biology or chemestry or physics is taught any differently at a $40,000 elite private school.   The key is to transfer out of the inexpensive school half-way through so you get your degree from a university that will actually help you later in life.   When you're 35, people will look closer at a resume that says Harvard or MIT than UMass Lowell.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2009)

Geoff said:


> My experience was similar to deadheadskier except that I came to my senses before actually starting school.   I applied to all tiny liberal arts schools.   My dad went to Amherst for his undergrad and I was brainwashed into doing Amherst/Williiams/Weslyan, Bates/Bowdoin/Colby.  I applied to UMass as my emergency school and UVM on a lark.   After I got accepted and started taking a harder look at the schools, I concluded that there was no way I could go to a college that was smaller than my high school and I'd probably starve to death with a liberal arts degree.  At the time, UMass wasn't a very good school so I sort of fell into UVM as the only possible alternative.
> 
> Today, economics tend to drive the decision for a lot of people.  UMass is now really tough to get in to.  Since they can be selective, the quality of many of their programs has improved dramatically.   For many people, the first two years in a local state school followed by a transfer to the big state school is the only viable option.  In my opinion, you can probably get just as good an education in your intro classes at a local state school as you can at one of the elite universities.   It's not like calculus or biology or chemestry or physics is taught any differently at a $40,000 elite private school.   The key is to transfer out of the inexpensive school half-way through so you get your degree from a university that will actually help you later in life.   When you're 35, people will look closer at a resume that says Harvard or MIT than UMass Lowell.



Very sound financial advice by starting at a lower cost school for the 1st two years and then 'upgrading' for the more critical junior and senior years.  

When I become the parent helping my child with college decisions, I'm not sure I'd willing to encourage the above route unless I am absolutely positive the child desires to work up to the better / more expensive school.  Social needs for many 18 year old individuals outweigh academic / professional needs.  There's a chance the student falls in love with the small state school and refuses to transfer out.


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## mondeo (Aug 10, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Today, economics tend to drive the decision for a lot of people. UMass is now really tough to get in to. Since they can be selective, the quality of many of their programs has improved dramatically. For many people, the first two years in a local state school followed by a transfer to the big state school is the only viable option. In my opinion, you can probably get just as good an education in your intro classes at a local state school as you can at one of the elite universities. It's not like calculus or biology or chemestry or physics is taught any differently at a $40,000 elite private school. The key is to transfer out of the inexpensive school half-way through so you get your degree from a university that will actually help you later in life. When you're 35, people will look closer at a resume that says Harvard or MIT than UMass Lowell.


Financially it makes sense, but I'm not sure it does in other ways. Socially it's a hurdle to make friends one place and then have to do it over again in your Junior year. If you're involved in non-academic programs, that's another problem, and, at least in the engineering world, things like Formula SAE/FIRST/Design Build Crash, er, Fly can be more important than the actual coursework. If you have a good relationship with your advisor, that goes out the window. Plus nobody with decent qualifications pays $40K/year for an education, just legacies with money that are below average students relative to the college norm. At least in my experience.

I applied to USNA, Princeton, Cornell, Clarkson, U of Rochester, and U of Buffalo. USNA was my first choice for many years but I changed direction after applying. Rejected by Princeton and Cornell, Cornell I was on the waitlist until July. Wasn't really thrilled about going to Clarkson (can't remember why,) but after about a month it turned out to be a pretty good fit. In the end I'm glad I didn't get into either Cornell or Princeton. Clarkson was probably just as good an education as Cornell, and for actual working engineers probably better than Princeton. On top of that, the Ivies are notoriously competitive, and I'm pretty laid back. Wouldn't have fit in to an environment where people won't help others out because it will bring them down relative to the mean.


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## Geoff (Aug 10, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Social needs for many 18 year old individuals outweigh academic / professional needs.  There's a chance the student falls in love with the small state school and refuses to transfer out.



There are plenty of successful people who did their undergraduate education at small state schools.  The only time an elite school helps is when someone is looking at your resume.   Career success ties more to innate ability and personal motivation than what school you went to.   The elite school just makes it easier to evaluate a resume since it's assumed that since you got admitted and graduated, you have the innate ability and personal motivation.

With the new economy, you can't look at college as a 4 year prepaid cover charge.  To be economically viable, you have to obtain specific skills that make you employable.   I was fortunate that my father drilled that into me.   I had a fairly pampered upper middle class upbringing.   The constant lecture was "If you like living in a nice house in a nice town, skiing every weekend in the winter, and sailing all summer, you'd better study hard, get yourself into a good school, and land yourself a good job afterwards.   None of this is going to be given to you."   There are far fewer opportunities now than when that was getting drilled into me in the first part of the 1970's.  That lesson is even more important today.


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 10, 2009)

Geoff said:


> There are plenty of successful people who did their undergraduate education at small state schools.  The only time an elite school helps is when someone is looking at your resume.   Career success ties more to innate ability and personal motivation than what school you went to.   The elite school just makes it easier to evaluate a resume since it's assumed that since you got admitted and graduated, you have the innate ability and personal motivation.
> 
> With the new economy, you can't look at college as a 4 year prepaid cover charge.  To be economically viable, you have to obtain specific skills that make you employable.   I was fortunate that my father drilled that into me.   I had a fairly pampered upper middle class upbringing.   The constant lecture was "If you like living in a nice house in a nice town, skiing every weekend in the winter, and sailing all summer, you'd better study hard, get yourself into a good school, and land yourself a good job afterwards.   None of this is going to be given to you."   There are far fewer opportunities now than when that was getting drilled into me in the first part of the 1970's.  That lesson is even more important today.



Sounds a bit familiar except my family was solid middle class . My dad the second oldest of four was raised by a wonderful mom ( my grandma ) who was widowed at 28 had a 6th grade education in Italy and all 4 kids went to great schools and earned advanced degrees .

My parents gave me a similar set of expectations with the added codicil that "with the way you like to eat , you better study hard  , go to college and get a great job !!  ;D


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## hammer (Aug 10, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Wouldn't have fit in to an environment where people won't help others out because it will bring them down relative to the mean.


That's one thing I liked about going to BU for engineering...the motto there was "cooperate and graduate".

Tough part (I think) will be in determining what a good fit will be.  I tend to think my son would do better in a smaller environment, but I don't know if he will like that or not.  Hope that will come out when we start campus visits.

I want to see him get into a good school, but mainly so that he can position himself well for the next step (graduate or med school).  The Ivy League schools may be too competitive given his grades (hate to say that, but I have to be realistic), but I'd hope that getting into a top-tier school at the undergraduate level isn't too important.


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## legalskier (Aug 11, 2009)

Regarding financing, I agree about not dipping into retirement funds if possible; better to take out loans. As Carrie suggested, you should fill out a FAFSA application soon after January 1 of senior year (http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/). This is necessary to secure federal loans and grants such as the Stafford Loan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_the_United_States). FAFSA applications can be daunting, so here are a couple of instructive videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kor_9cK593M; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJDU-eXFq5o. Your son's high school may offer a finance seminar for parents in the fall of senior year, like ours did, which was very helpful. In addition to the federal options, your state (Mass?) also may offer a college loan program for its residents; my state does, even if the student attends an out-of-state school. The NJClass loan gets spread out 20 years at a competitive interest rate, which is tax deductible depending on its structure. This is the best type of loan for my situation--long term, low interest and tax deductible (http://www.hesaa.org/index.php?page=NJCLASSapply). I also set up a home equity line of credit, which is deductible too, but consider it a last resort as I don't want to encumber our home. As others have noted, private schools can be more flexible with tuition than state schools, another good reason to visit the campus and take a tour. For example, my daughter tagged along "for fun" with a friend whose mom took them to tour a private college and ended up getting recruited there after meeting various representatives. When I first saw the stated cost of tuition I had sticker shock, but they made her an offer she couldn't refuse, including scholarships. We'll be paying about half of what we pay for my son's state university. Things worked out nicely.


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## awf170 (Aug 12, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> Final note : read this twice ----------DO NOT BE HELICOPTER PARENTS , its the kids experience and responsibility to stretch and grow toward both intellectual and emotional maturity



Yep... If you raised your child correctly from birth to the end of high school there is no need to watch over every move they do.  If you kid wants to go to college and get hammered and high every night they're going to do regardless of whether you watch over their every move.  Do not call to check up more than once a week unless they want you to.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 12, 2009)

awf170 said:


> Yep... If you raised your child correctly from birth to the end of high school there is no need to watch over every move they do.  If you kid wants to go to college and get hammered and high every night they're going to do regardless of whether you watch over their every move.  Do not call to check up more than once a week unless they want you to.



times two..i vividly remember some crazy partys at uvm..nothing like a giant nitrous tank..next to a giant bong next to a keg of some heady dank beer,,


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## mondeo (Sep 3, 2009)

So today was the first day of hopefully my last semester of actual classes for my Masters in Engineering. Those that say there isn't a difference between schools are wrong. Out of the 8 classes, one that I'm taking now looks like it will be the 4th grad class to repeat undergrad work I did at Clarkson. A 5th was project management, which was so simple I'm guessing would've been the same as undergrad project management at Clarkson. There's definately a difference in the amount of stuff I would've been taught at U.Hart compared to what I was taught at CU. Part of it's due to being an Aero undergrad major, that accounts for 2 of the classes. But the stats class I took is probably lower level than the Clarkson 300 level stats class I took, and the mechanics of materials class is looking like it covers the same stuff as my 300 level materials class.

The other class, on the other hand, is looking like a full semester of Navier-Stokes. Sonofa whatnot, I had dearly hoped never to see those things again in my life.


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2009)

mondeo said:


> So today was the first day of hopefully my last semester of actual classes for my Masters in Engineering. Those that say there isn't a difference between schools are wrong. Out of the 8 classes, one that I'm taking now looks like it will be the 4th grad class to repeat undergrad work I did at Clarkson. A 5th was project management, which was so simple I'm guessing would've been the same as undergrad project management at Clarkson. There's definately a difference in the amount of stuff I would've been taught at U.Hart compared to what I was taught at CU. Part of it's due to being an Aero undergrad major, that accounts for 2 of the classes. But the stats class I took is probably lower level than the Clarkson 300 level stats class I took, and the mechanics of materials class is looking like it covers the same stuff as my 300 level materials class.
> 
> The other class, on the other hand, is looking like a full semester of Navier-Stokes. Sonofa whatnot, I had dearly hoped never to see those things again in my life.


 
Are you a CU grad?  What year?  I graduated from there in in '89 with PhD. in physics.


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## severine (Sep 3, 2009)

A lot depends on the individual professor him-/herself. There will always be phenomenal professors and useless ones.


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## hammer (Sep 3, 2009)

mondeo said:


> The other class, on the other hand, is looking like a full semester of Navier-Stokes. Sonofa whatnot, I had dearly hoped never to see those things again in my life.


What is the class?

I remember the name but not the specifics...and I'm glad...


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## Puck it (Sep 3, 2009)

hammer said:


> What is the class?
> 
> I remember the name but not the specifics...and I'm glad...


 

Sounds like a Fluid Mechanics course to me.


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## mondeo (Sep 3, 2009)

Puck it said:


> Are you a CU grad? What year? I graduated from there in in '89 with PhD. in physics.


'06


hammer said:


> What is the class?
> 
> I remember the name but not the specifics...and I'm glad...


Convective Mass and Heat Transfer. Theoretical style. uke:

It'll be good for me to learn the stuff, but that doesn't mean that I'll enjoy it. Math's boring.


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## legalskier (Sep 4, 2009)

"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write; but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."    -Toffler


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree with the first place being large or small in narrowing down what you want.
> 
> Also need to decide if you want rural or urban.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  The former may be "too boring" for some, but the latter, although more exciting, can have too many distractions and have higher costs of living.



We've gone through the process with 2 kids so far.  We had an outstanding school college counselor.

Since your kid probably has no opinion, best to start by amalgamating the suggestions above:
School tours of:
Large school
small school
urban school
rural school
The kid has to decide about this.  Sometimes it doesn't happen until much later.

The admissions odds are against your kid right now.  Last year was the largest national high school graduating class in history.  It is the baby boom "echo."  It is going to take 5-10 more years to settle down.  So, you must stack the deck.  A consistently successful strategy it to apply to 10-12 schools.  Yes, really.  Some people get lucky, a lot don't.  The days of applying to 1, 2 or 3 schools as sufficient is long over folks....

Group schools into far reach, reach and likely.  Have some in each.  No such thing as a "safety school" anymore.  If you are judged unlikely to accept a school offer, they will flat out reject  you, to keep their yield up.   These groups can be summarily created by looking at your kid's SAT/ACT scores and the schools.  There is always a wildcard, but numbers are still a big deal at most schools.

Sadly, most extra curricular, volunteer, leadership activities are expected.  Everyone has them.  It makes it much harder to stand out.

Take the essay damn seriously and put a lot of thought into it.  Be creative, get their attention without being stupid about it.


Get a good college directory and start looking.  Your kid won't have time/interest to do that.  We started by creating a "short list" of 60 schools, then whittled it down over a 5 month period, by focused discussions with the kid.  Solicit recommendations from your counselor.  

If you like the school show the love.  Every call, every visit, every correspondence is logged.  Visit if you want a chance.   With so many kids looking alike, this is one area you can distinguish yourself in.

Understand the school's hot button.  Most importantly, determine if an interview is a key influence.  When in doubt, interview.

Plot an SAT and ACT strategy.  Take both, see which is better.  Some school take one, the other or both.  

And unfortunately, the Baccalaureate is no longer a meal ticket.  With nearly everyone in the next generation claiming a "degree" those that really want to advance into responsible work will ultimately need a Masters.   Sorry, calling it like it is.

With regard to undeclared majors, over 80% of freshman have no clue what they want to major in.  Most really "with it" liberal arts schools today allow you to postpone declaring your major until as late as the end of your second year, without losing points, so-to-speak.   Obviously not applicable to sciences, engineering or professional schools.  I was engineering undergrad, and had a helluva a lot to learn about liberal arts curriculums with my first two kids...

It's a huge process, but it has lifetime consequences.  Make that investment.


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

severine said:


> I used to work for a municipality and not only did they NOT offer tuition reimbursement, I was told in no uncertain terms that acquiring a degree (or additional degrees) would have no impact on my wages. They did pay for classes related directly to the department (like I started the Certification courses to become a Municipal Assessor and they paid for that or seminars that were directly-related to my office) but otherwise, zilch.



In business school, they referred to government as the "employer of last resort."


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## hammer (Sep 4, 2009)

billski said:


> We've gone through the process with 2 kids so far.  We had an outstanding school college counselor.
> 
> Since your kid probably has no opinion, best to start by amalgamating the suggestions above:
> School tours of:
> ...


:-o:-o:-o

But I now realize why people start early...

I guess what gets me about all of this is how much the parents need to be involved.  I don't remember my parents paying much attention on where I wanted to go...I took care if it myself.


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

hammer said:


> :-o:-o:-o
> 
> But I now realize why people start early...
> 
> I guess what gets me about all of this is how much the parents need to be involved. I don't remember my parents paying much attention on where I wanted to go...I took care if it myself.


 
Simply the numbers were with you. The number are against your kid today. Sure, there are many stories of the kid that did it on his/herself, applied to three schools, got accepted to all three. But "many" ain't the majority. 
With kids looking all the same, they will want to see advanced courses, and of course a bunch of subject tests, which we never had to take. A PITA for sure.

If you don't get involved, your kid won't have a stacked deck. Ain't no guarentee, but do you just want to roll dice? Your kid probably does not have the interest or time to devote to this, and worst, doesn't have the organizational skills developed to make this happen yet.

Each college has a "hidden agenda" too, which you will NEVER figure out until afterwards. Some are looking for certain ethnic, academic, demographic, geographic, arts/science ratio, multidisciplinary, French-speakers, no Latin-readers types of strategies. So you may get rejects, with all the right credentials, be a "perfect fit" and get rejected. I saw many parents say "WTF???" No explanation forthcoming. Sorry kid, we would love to have you but 99 others looked just like you and we only have a slot for one kid from NH. We were really looking for a kid from Bosnia. No $#1t.

Oh and by the way, the kids with the lowest odds of getting accepted? Want to guess? White females from the northeast US. Too many of them. Sad, huh?

What are the odds for getting into a specific college? Assuming you are qualified, it's 20-30%. Do the math. The number 12 comes from having more than one college accept you so that your kid can have CHOICE. 

We are just wrapping up college visits on #2 this month. Interviews start immediately thereafter. Bye bye life!


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## gorgonzola (Sep 4, 2009)

great posts billski! we are in the middle of this process right now and you're spot on


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## severine (Sep 4, 2009)

Wow, billski! I graduated 14 years ago but I don't recall going through all that. Must be why I took the path I have.  Every school I applied to, I got in. Money was the bigger issue.



billski said:


> In business school, they referred to government as the "employer of last resort."


After 8.5 years with them, spending 2.5 of them on a union pension board where the end result was a complete waste of time (they wiped clean all the changes we strove for right before I left--our pension agreement had expired 2 years prior) I can say that I am in no hurry to repeat that. Granted, I was paid well considering there were no degree requirements and I only worked 32.5 hours/wk for full-time benefits. But still, no desire to return to that life.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2009)

billski said:


> We are just wrapping up college visits on #2 this month. Interviews start immediately thereafter. Bye bye life!



Why??? You'll soon be an empty nester..that's when it gets really good..


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Why??? You'll soon be an empty nester..that's when it gets really good..


 #3 is 5 years away  :???:


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

severine said:


> Wow, billski! I graduated 14 years ago but I don't recall going through all that. Must be why I took the path I have.  Every school I applied to, I got in. Money was the bigger issue.



What was your major?  For example, technical fields were/continue to be desperate to increase female enrollment.
Not to make excuses, but some people "just get lucky."  It's the old odds game.  Need to know more about your specific situation before I could comment further.

The number of females applying to colleges has gone up by 31% since you graduated.  Everyone can still get into a college, there are plenty of colleges around.  It's just really hard when it's a "competitive" school.
You can wrap your head around the numbers if you want:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/TableA-5a.xls


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## severine (Sep 4, 2009)

billski said:


> What was your major?  For example, technical fields were/continue to be desperate to increase female enrollment.
> Not to make excuses, but some people "just get lucky."  It's the old odds game.  Need to know more about your specific situation before I could comment further.
> 
> The number of females applying to colleges has gone up by 31% since you graduated.  Everyone can still get into a college, there are plenty of colleges around.  It's just really hard when it's a "competitive" school.
> ...



At the time... let's see (because it changed). I believe Marketing was my goal. I ended up not going away to school because my parents would not contribute toward the expense and I could not borrow enough to pay my share so I did Liberal Arts & Sciences at community college... was going to transfer to Central for teaching & was accepted but finances got in the way again... now I'm at UCONN for English. I was 15th in my class, though, and in the end while I did tour and consider more competitive schools, I chose not to apply to them because of the increased cost. Financing on your own makes it harder since your parents' income is counted against you anyway.

I guess my point is that there will always be a school that will take you and while it's nice to go to some prestigious institution, in the end that's only for bragging rights. There are very few people who the difference between a state school and private institution will make a huge difference in their lives. Why pay that much more then? One class at UCONN costs the same as a full-time semester at the community college I attended--where I had some awesome professors who have made a huge impact on me. UCONN as a CT resident is about $9K/year with fees not including housing (non-resident is closer to $25K, IIRC, and I'm not sure if that's including housing, etc, or not). This year they offered me grants that completely covered my tuition. Sure, I could have gone somewhere like Quinnipiac instead... and yeah, it carries a little more prestige. But is it really worth paying the extra money? Not for an undergraduate degree....


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## billski (Sep 4, 2009)

severine said:


> I guess my point is that there will always be a school that will take you and while it's nice to go to some prestigious institution, in the end that's only for bragging rights.



I agree to the most part with you.  It's not all about prestige, although that is the case ultra-competitive like the Ivys.  It can be about the quality of the eduction too, which leads me to the middle group which is called "competitive".   We've identified prestigious schools that are definitely worth it for grad school, but suck for undergrad.

A strong-minded, high-ability, motivated student like yourself can succeed anywhere: before, during and after college.  However, most people are unlike you.  There's no 'special sauce' to college; it truly has to be a "fit".  You are perhaps more adaptable than most, and you really should recognize that.   
When I first became a people manager, I had the misplaced notion that anyone could be anything they wanted.  I quickly learned that not everyone has the aptitude or motivation or drive to do that /be that.   
But given all that, I've seen my daughters get amazing FA packages from competitive schools.  Often those schools provide the resources, faculty,  peers and opportunities you simply can't get at a smaller school (I've stumbled my way through the wringer at public, private, small and large). They offered such FA IMO because the kid was a "fit" in their eyes - capable and desirable.  You just never know, so just limiting yourself to schools with lower tuition can do you a disservice.


I had to crack the FA nut differently for myself.  I funded years 3+ myself.  When I ran out of money, I went to work for a while. Everyone is different.  Every school is different.  Some schools we looked at give preference to in-state, others accept very few in-state.  That's why identifying a school's hot button is so important.    I'm happy to see you were successful, but the fact remains, it's still a vastly more competitive environment.  Any way you look at it, it's not easy.

And don't get me going about why schools are so damn expensive.  Sushi bars at school included in the meal plan?  Let them eat bread and meatloaf!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2009)

billski said:


> #3 is 5 years away  :???:



cha ching$$$$$$$


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## faceplant (Sep 4, 2009)

just try not to go to a douchy college-

AMERICA'S 25 DOUCHIEST COLLEGES

*http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10779&duke=sucks*



i think its douchy that Carrie got so much homework on a holiday weekend   :sad:


.


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## severine (Sep 4, 2009)

At least my school wasn't on that list.  And dude! It's college--there's always homework.  I have 7 pages of World Religions left and then all I have to do is American Studies' 140 pages. And work on Gatsby but I already read it over the summer and that's not due til the following Monday anyway.  I got it under control...this week, anyway. I'm still going to have a good time Sunday. :beer:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 5, 2009)

#10..the Kind Bud Douche,..lol...


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## mattchuck2 (Sep 8, 2009)

Geoff said:


> My experience was similar to deadheadskier except that I came to my senses before actually starting school.   I applied to all tiny liberal arts schools.   My dad went to Amherst for his undergrad and I was brainwashed into doing Amherst/Williiams/Weslyan, Bates/Bowdoin/Colby.  I applied to UMass as my emergency school and UVM on a lark.   After I got accepted and started taking a harder look at the schools, I concluded that there was no way I could go to a college that was smaller than my high school and I'd probably starve to death with a liberal arts degree.  At the time, UMass wasn't a very good school so I sort of fell into UVM as the only possible alternative.
> 
> Today, economics tend to drive the decision for a lot of people.  UMass is now really tough to get in to.  Since they can be selective, the quality of many of their programs has improved dramatically.   For many people, the first two years in a local state school followed by a transfer to the big state school is the only viable option.  In my opinion, you can probably get just as good an education in your intro classes at a local state school as you can at one of the elite universities.   It's not like calculus or biology or chemestry or physics is taught any differently at a $40,000 elite private school.   The key is to transfer out of the inexpensive school half-way through so you get your degree from a university that will actually help you later in life.   When you're 35, people will look closer at a resume that says Harvard or MIT than UMass Lowell.



My story is also similar, I applied to Dartmouth (reach school), Colby, Middlebury, UVM, Colorado College (if I wanted to move out west), and St. Lawrence.  I got into all of them except Dartmouth (which I'm still pissed about ;-)), and I chose Colby.  When I went to visit one long weekend in March (we did the Bates-Bowdoin-Colby-Sugarloaf-Sunday River trip), it snowed 10 inches while we were on the tour and we skied powder at Sugarloaf the next day.  That pretty much sold it for me.

I majored in Geology and Biology, with a minor in Math, and I got a pretty good job eventually, so I wouldn't worry about the stigma of a "Liberal Arts" education.  But, because of a lot of the reasons that people already mentioned, I'm thinking of going back to school for a Masters . . . or not.  I am completely happy with my choice in College, though, and I don't think I would have chose different knowing what I know now.


----------



## legalskier (Sep 15, 2009)

Here are a couple of items that may be of interest.

*Which High School Students Are Most Likely to Graduate From College?*
Parents: Stop fretting so much about which high school your youngsters attend or how they score on the SATs. If you want your student to make it to a bachelor's degree, it's far more important for him or her to earn at least B's in high school and reach for the best possible college. Oh, and saving a few thousand bucks by sending your kid to a community college could turn out to be an expensive mistake. Some of the nation's best-respected educational researchers are likely to reconsider much conventional wisdom today with the release of surprising findings from an analysis of educational records of more than 200,000 freshmen who started at public four-year colleges in 1999.
Read more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/2009...oolstudentsaremostlikelytograduatefromcollege
                                ............................................................
*College is expensive- getting in shouldn't be*
NEW YORK (AP) - Before worrying about college tuition, there's the small matter of getting your child into a school. 
It's a process that can sap you of thousands of dollars, especially if you're booking hotel rooms and plane tickets to visit faraway campuses. Application fees alone can be $60 or more a pop. ``It's costing a fortune. I'm afraid to even keep track,'' said Elaine Dickinson, a resident of suburban Albany, N.Y., who visited several schools in the Northeast this summer with her 17-year-old daughter, Kate. As you ramp up the college application process in coming months, here's how you can tackle three major costs.
Here's more:
http://channels.isp.netscape.com/celebrity/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001/20090909/1238091722.htm


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## severine (Sep 15, 2009)

Interesting quote about community colleges:



> Many community college students also have complained over the years about the failure of their schools to direct them to classes that will count as transfer credits


I know that in CT the community colleges have been working with the state schools (Central, Western, Southern, Eastern, and UCONN) to match their courses to what's being taught there as well as ensure that students are taking classes that WILL transfer. Much more closely than when I attended community college, though I had no problems with my courses transferring.

Perhaps it's just not the right step unless you're highly motivated. But it can save you a lot of money.


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## ski220 (Sep 15, 2009)

Puck it said:


> My son got into UCONN
> 
> .  The amount he qualified for was only $5K out of $36K bill.  The rest is expected to come from us.



Glad to see my tax dollars going to an out of state person.  $5K can buy alot of lift tickets.

When I went to UCONN ('79 - '83), instate tuition was only $600 - $650 a semester.  Between WORKING and student loans I was able to pay my own way.


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## severine (Sep 15, 2009)

ski220 said:


> Glad to see my tax dollars going to an out of state person.  $5K can buy alot of lift tickets.
> 
> When I went to UCONN ('79 - '83), instate tuition was only $600 - $650 a semester.  Between WORKING and student loans I was able to pay my own way.


In-state resident for tuition/fees (not housing or food) costs about $9K and that's for a regional campus; Storrs costs more. Classes (3-credits) cost somewhere around $1K each if you go part-time. Not cheap these days.


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## ski220 (Sep 15, 2009)

severine said:


> In-state resident for tuition/fees (not housing or food) costs about $9K and that's for a regional campus; Storrs costs more. Classes (3-credits) cost somewhere around $1K each if you go part-time. Not cheap these days.



First two years were at Stamford branch.  Should have stated that.  Then transfered to the big CONN.  Hear it's a lot harder to get accepted nowadays as the cost of private schools is so much greater that there are many more applications then ( Oh my God) 30 years ago.


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## severine (Sep 15, 2009)

ski220 said:


> First two years were at Stamford branch.  Should have stated that.  Then transfered to the big CONN.  Hear it's a lot harder to get accepted nowadays as the cost of private schools is so much greater that there are many more applications then ( Oh my God) 30 years ago.



 What you quoted is closer to what I paid for Northwestern Connecticut Community College 10 years ago: roughly $900/semester for full-time attendance. I lived 1 city away and worked (sometimes part-time, mostly full-time). It made sense.


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## legalskier (Nov 16, 2009)

*"10 Secrets to Raising More Than $15,000 for College"*

Not sure how "secret" they are, but this may give you some ideas nevertheless:

*http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20091112/ts_usnews/10secretstoraisingmorethan15000forcollege*


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## hammer (Apr 15, 2010)

Bump for an op-ed article that I thought was interesting...

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...les/2010/04/15/the_myth_of_the_frankenstudent

What I can't figure is that we've been on four campus tours (one public, three private) and in each case the admissions folks said that the extra-curricular activities really weren't that important if your coursework and grades were solid.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 15, 2010)

hammer said:


> Bump for an op-ed article that I thought was interesting...
> 
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...les/2010/04/15/the_myth_of_the_frankenstudent
> 
> What I can't figure is that we've been on four campus tours (one public, three private) and in each case the admissions folks said that the extra-curricular activities really weren't that important if your coursework and grades were solid.



 FWIW Lots of ambiguety exists in the so called "admissions process". Many believe it is overly "mystical" to create the notion of "perceived presitige" .. After all how else does a school justify a " champagne effect:" pricing policy where the MORE one pays supposedly relates to outcomes -------------Yea riiiiight !!!

 Hey  you know what :   Don't OBSESS ---------------remember its just  MARKETING!! -

From a common sense point of view  You KNOW from YOUR own experience there are a multiplicity of  successful individuals  in the "real world " whom you KNOW and who do not fit "the profile " Relax , chill have the kid do their best but not become a damn compulsive in order to try to meet someone else 's myopic definition of what defines success . > Besides which if they are so damn sucesssful why in hell are they still working in college admissions-- that's entry level stuff  -- sorry i'm on a roll here 

Yes i'm playing here , but  i've witnessed this "gamesmanship" for several decades -- 

 A good student will perform best whereever they experience a " goodness of fit" as i explained earlier in this discussion . 

Have fun and BTW great article !!!!

Warp


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## WakeboardMom (Apr 15, 2010)

Warp Daddy said:


> From a common sense point of view  You KNOW from YOUR own experience there are a multiplicity of  successful individuals  in the "real world " whom you KNOW and who do not fit "the profile " *Relax , chill have the kid do their best but not become a damn compulsive in order to try to meet someone else 's myopic definition of what defines success .* > Besides which if they are so damn sucesssful why in hell are they still working in college admissions-- that's entry level stuff  -- sorry i'm on a roll here
> 
> Yes i'm playing here , but  i've witnessed this "gamesmanship" for several decades --
> 
> ...



YAY!!!  Love this post!

Re: gamesmanship - My oldest was accepted a couple of upper tier private colleges; went to one and when the third one applied there he was waitlisted.  Guidance counselor at the h.s. said, "We have never been able to figure out exactly what that college is looking for.  There is no rhyme or reason to the acceptances that we can see."  

I have four kids...the oldest 3 went to private colleges at great expense to them and us.  Now we're kind of saying "WTF?"  My husband says it's a scam.  ; - )

Number 4 is a different kind of a kid; was never an honor roll student like her bros.  She's is doing GREAT at state school.  Woohoo!!  She struggled in a tough h.s. environment and is doing swimmingly well now.  She may actually make Dean's List, because, as WD said above, the school is a good fit!!

: - )  I love WD's post.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 15, 2010)

WakeboardMom said:


> YAY!!!  Love this post!
> 
> Re: gamesmanship - My oldest was accepted a couple of upper tier private colleges; went to one and when the third one applied there he was waitlisted.  Guidance counselor at the h.s. said, "We have never been able to figure out exactly what that college is looking for.  There is no rhyme or reason to the acceptances that we can see."
> 
> ...




Thanks WBM   i appreciate your kind remarks !

I spent 35 yrs in the college business and am more than familiar with some of this  nonsense . When i   finally got to a postion where i  could do something about it ------------- I  DID and began to humanize the experience .  I always figured our role as educators is to help  potentially capable people develop THEIR potential  straight up  not play gotcha games


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## severine (Apr 15, 2010)

Warp Daddy said:


> I always figured our role as educators is to help  potentially capable people develop THEIR potential  straight up  not play gotcha games


I wish more felt the same way that you do!


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 16, 2010)

severine said:


> I wish more felt the same way that you do!



Thanks Carrie :  it probably was in the "gene pool" for me.  Had some great role models at home  and then when i coached in college  too i imagined that coaching was actually  just a form of MORE  "ACTIVE " teaching .  You know set goals and expectations , drill and practice , observe performance and GIVE feedback both positive and negative and use an ACTIVE VISIBLE style  and bring out the best in your players , 

  S-o i used the same stuff in the CR then later on as a dean and prez---------------luved teaching folks and watching them stretch and grow . My motto was for my students and latrt the organization  treat them not as they are , but as they COULD be UNTIL they prove me wrong .  .


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## hammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Now that my son's entering senior year, things will start to get interesting...he will be retaking the SATs (verbal scores were very good but his math score should come up a bit) and the college applications all seem to be due around mid January.  He has 3 (maybe 4) schools on his list but he needs to research/pick a few more.

Now for a vent...not sure what everyone else's experience is/was, but after trying to resolve some class schedule issues for my son I'm convinced that his high school guidance department leaves quite a bit to be desired.  How much does he really need to deal with them?  I remember that when I went to school my guidance counselor was also of limited use...


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## ctenidae (Aug 25, 2010)

It was about 20 years ago, but the only reason I knew who the guidance counselor was at my school was thather son and my younger brother were friends.
So, based on that, probably don't have to work with them much.


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## billski (Aug 25, 2010)

hammer said:


> I'm convinced that his high school guidance department leaves quite a bit to be desired.  How much does he really need to deal with them?  I remember that when I went to school my guidance counselor was also of limited use...



While it varies, just look at the numbers of students assigned to each GC.  It's huge.  There is no way you'll get much individualized attention.  So you're kinda on your own for the most part.  We've been through the process twice in the last three years and I'll tell you, it's all about the kid.  

Now, it's also about the odds of getting in.  If your GC has access to the Naviance system, get plugged in.  It plots the 5-year acceptance rates from your school to each college, GPA vs. SAT/ACT.  You then plug your kid into the chart and it is unbelievably accurate about acceptances.  You didn't ask.

You've got to visit, if at all possible, as many of these picks as you  can.  There is a certain "vibe" that a kid can't articulate but can tell  you right away if they will be comfortable there.  you didn't ask.

Since one kid had no clue, and the second knows exactly what she wanted  to be, the search was entirely different for each kid.  My wife must  have read the dossier's on at least 800 schools, something the kids were  not going to do.  There are some good books that go way beyond the  academics and help guide you.  You didn't ask.

One thing that a GC IS good for - knowing all the local scholarships.  Get in there and apply to them all. There are ones for people who paint their toenails blue and ones for those who ski at night.  There are several that go untapped every year.  I hear about this ALL the time.


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## gmcunni (Aug 25, 2010)

my son's a junior this year, we're getting started with the whole college process.. i just read a University of VT brochure while taking care of some business.   i told jake to plan on scheduling his 2nd semester courses so he has no classes on Friday. that way i'll come up and crash on the couch Thursday nights so we can hit first tracks @ MRV resorts on Friday AMs

with regard to school staff (not teachers), i've been disappointed in past few dealings.  i've come to realize that no matter what they say, they aren't looking out for my kid's best interest but rather "the system's"


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## Puck it (Aug 25, 2010)

We had guidance counsler's???????


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## gmcunni (Aug 25, 2010)

Puck it said:


> We had guidance counsler's???????



in my high school the guidance counselor was the varsity basketball coach.....


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## mlctvt (Aug 25, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> in my high school the guidance counselor was the varsity basketball coach.....



Ther was 1 in my high school. 1 GC for 600+ kids. 
I never saw him.


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## mondeo (Aug 25, 2010)

We were forced to see the guidance counselor for course selection and some college stuff.

There would have been better uses of my time.


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## hammer (Aug 25, 2010)

billski said:


> While it varies, just look at the numbers of students assigned to each GC.  It's huge.  There is no way you'll get much individualized attention.  So you're kinda on your own for the most part.  We've been through the process twice in the last three years and I'll tell you, it's all about the kid.
> 
> Now, it's also about the odds of getting in.  If your GC has access to the Naviance system, get plugged in.  It plots the 5-year acceptance rates from your school to each college, GPA vs. SAT/ACT.  You then plug your kid into the chart and it is unbelievably accurate about acceptances.  You didn't ask.
> 
> ...


I don't mind that my son needs to take some initiative (that's a separate issue of its own) but that the guidance department doesn't seem to really know how to help us when we do ask a question.  Basically the last time we asked about colleges all we got was an "it depends" answer and a suggestion to look at collegeboard.com.

I'll have to ask about naviance...never heard about it before.

Hear you on the "vibe" part of the visits.  We tend to only listen to part of the tours...they will all tell you that the food is great, class sizes aren't an issue, the campus is safe, professors are very reachable, etc.  Main think we do is follow the tour around campus, look around, and see how our son reacts.


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 25, 2010)

Never had a guidance counselor myself , but had a dad that was involved with HIS college for yrs so was a campus rat and knew "stuff'  

Admittedly my 'tude  'bout  GC's is a might "Warped"   - my feeling is in some cases the worst teachers ultimately end up as GC's   

I 'm sure there are dedicated and  folks who practice what i call Directive counseling -- i've just not encountered many in my yrs as an educator . The field seems a bit too laid back and non -directive  , but then again that;s my opinion -- Yours ??


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## severine (Aug 25, 2010)

Given my college experience with advisors as well, I'd say that he better be a really good advocate for himself. He needs to take responsibility for what he needs to get done and do it. Part of becoming an adult.


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## Geoff (Aug 25, 2010)

hammer said:


> Now for a vent...not sure what everyone else's experience is/was, but after trying to resolve some class schedule issues for my son I'm convinced that his high school guidance department leaves quite a bit to be desired.  How much does he really need to deal with them?  I remember that when I went to school my guidance counselor was also of limited use...



A high school guidance counselor is a politically well connected high school teacher who picked a transfer to a job at the same pay level where you don't have to prepare daily classes and correct papers and exams.   Chances are, they went to a state teacher's college for their degree.  They're average and their frame of reference is dealing with average students.   If you want to be average in life, by all means listen to a high school guidance counselor.


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## severine (Aug 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> A high school guidance counselor is a politically well connected high school teacher who picked a transfer to a job at the same pay level where you don't have to prepare daily classes and correct papers and exams.   Chances are, they went to a state teacher's college for their degree.  They're average and their frame of reference is dealing with average students.   If you want to be average in life, by all means listen to a high school guidance counselor.


My guidance counselor in high school was actually a psych major. Not a teacher; different track. My cousin just went through it and it's a lot different than going for a teaching degree. Maybe CT is different? 

However, we had a career counselor (or whatever the hell she called herself) that we were supposed to go to for help with college choices. I was in the top 10% of my class and so she felt I needed to go to a big bucks school. When she found out I had to pay for it myself (which isn't easy as a minor because all schools look at parents' income and factor that into financial aid--they don't believe your parents won't help pay), she said, "why bother going then?" Yeah, she was a great resource. :roll:


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 25, 2010)

UMASS (Amherst) isn't bad, that's where i go, tuition is around 19,000 including room and meals, not to mention closer to the VT ski areas (compared to Boston)


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## severine (Aug 25, 2010)

skiNEwhere said:


> UMASS (Amherst) isn't bad, that's where i go, tuition is around 19,000 including room and meals, not to mention closer to the VT ski areas (compared to Boston)


Keep in mind that that figure will fluctuate depending on if you are a MA resident, New England resident, or other. The same could be said about UCONN; decent school (I go to 3 of the campuses outside of Storrs) but costs will fluctuate depending on your residency. Full-time tuition for this coming year was around $8K but I live in state and I don't have to pay for housing/meals because I already pay for that with my family.


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## snoseek (Aug 25, 2010)

Metro State in Denver=under 5k a year for in state tuition plus cheap rent in the area.


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## WakeboardMom (Aug 26, 2010)

Geoff said:


> A high school guidance counselor is a politically well connected high school teacher who picked a transfer to a job at the same pay level where you don't have to prepare daily classes and correct papers and exams.   Chances are, they went to a state teacher's college for their degree.  They're average and their frame of reference is dealing with average students.   If you want to be average in life, by all means listen to a high school guidance counselor.




Four kids, private h.s., the guidance department sucked.  The best "guidance counselor" in that school was the football/track coach (now the AD).  He knew the kids on a personal level; saw them in action day in and day out and took an interest in their lives beyond h.s.  He was able to help them identify what would be a "good fit" for them when they were considering colleges.

(My daughter [fourth child] is now at a state teacher's college working toward a degree in elementary ed.  However, she is decidedly not average. ; )


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## NYDrew (Aug 26, 2010)

Guidance counselors are a great source of information.  If a guidance counselor tells you to do something...do the exact opposite.


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## hammer (Aug 26, 2010)

NYDrew said:


> Guidance counselors are a great source of information.  If a guidance counselor tells you to do something...do the exact opposite.


OK, now the next question...if Guidance Counselors are universally bad then why do colleges require letters of recommendation from them?


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## severine (Aug 26, 2010)

hammer said:


> OK, now the next question...if Guidance Counselors are universally bad then why do colleges require letters of recommendation from them?



They do? Can't you just get a letter of recommendation from a teacher with whom you have a relationship and is actually can speak with authority on the matter?


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 26, 2010)

hammer said:


> OK, now the next question...if Guidance Counselors are universally bad then why do colleges require letters of recommendation from them?



Its Kinda a self regulated  "mystical process" that has been created to sophisticate the whole process -- re- read earlier portions of this thread . At best IMHO its marketing hype 

I've observed it from the inside for over 3 decades . Many GC are part of the same 'professional frats or societies" as their admissions counterparts and so in polite terms its often a "professional courtesy"  IMO most schools will PAY attention to the letters of instructors and more importantly  alums or other FOC's ( Friends of the College)  or influentials ----. especially THOSE who DONATE  to annual funds or development office campaigns . You wanted the unfiltered truth -- there it is


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2010)

hammer said:


> OK, now the next question...if Guidance Counselors are universally bad then why do colleges require letters of recommendation from them?


 
Who has that requirement?  Generally the requirement is for recommendations from teachers/coaches/people who know the student.


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## hammer (Sep 15, 2010)

New question...

My son is thinking of going to a school in the south but I'd say that his personal/political beliefs are definitely a bit to the left.  Are there any recommendations for southern cities that are good, open college towns?


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## wa-loaf (Sep 15, 2010)

hammer said:


> New question...
> 
> My son is thinking of going to a school in the south but I'd say that his personal/political beliefs are definitely a bit to the left.  Are there any recommendations for southern cities that are good, open college towns?



Athens, GA; Austin, TX?


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## Puck it (Sep 15, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Athens, GA; Austin, TX?


 
Most colleges will be fairly liberal along with larger cities. Should be fine, but most college start out as liberals. Don't worry they see the light after a few years out of school.:roll:

They will become morally liberal and fiscally conservative.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Athens, GA; Austin, TX?



Ashevill and Boone, NC are about as liberal as it gets.


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## ctenidae (Sep 15, 2010)

Wilmington, NC is good, New ORleans is great. Most of the South is more liberal than you think- in the urban areas, anyway. Old Miss might not be so good for him, but unless he's a pre-op midget tranny in drag with a handful of sparkly balloons in a country town at 4am, he should be fine.

/not that there's anythign wrong with pre-op tranny midgets in drag. It's the balloons that set it off.


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## Geoff (Sep 15, 2010)

hammer said:


> New question...
> 
> My son is thinking of going to a school in the south but I'd say that his personal/political beliefs are definitely a bit to the left.  Are there any recommendations for southern cities that are good, open college towns?



Raleigh-Durham

New Orleans

Washington D.C. 

Austin, Texas (but nowhere else in Texas)


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## NYDrew (Sep 16, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Wilmington, NC is good, New ORleans is great. Most of the South is more liberal than you think- in the urban areas, anyway. Old Miss might not be so good for him, but unless he's a pre-op midget tranny in drag with a handful of sparkly balloons in a country town at 4am, he should be fine.
> 
> /not that there's anythign wrong with pre-op tranny midgets in drag. It's the balloons that set it off.



I once saw a one-eyed midget bum with one crutch and a walking stick playing the accordion in the subway.  When no one put money in the cup taped to his crutch, he whacked it with his walking stick and exclaimed "holy freholtes" (sp?) just like speedy gonzalez.  I couldn't help but fall to the floor in laughter.

The previous day a midget flew past me in Penn on a razor scooter and had a huge clown horn mounted to the handlebars that he was honking.

These two moments define why if I was to drop dead right now, I could call my life complete.


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## Geoff (Sep 17, 2010)

NYDrew said:


> These two moments define why if I was to drop dead right now, I could call my life complete.



I think you fail to see the larger picture


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## hammer (Mar 15, 2011)

The college decisions (for those who didn't apply early) are starting to come in...exciting times, as much for the parents as for the student.


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## legalskier (May 19, 2011)

In case anyone's interested....

_*‘Best Colleges’? Counselors Beg to Differ With U.S. News*
Your high school counselor may not be a fan of the U.S. News and World Report rankings of “Best Colleges,” at least based on the findings of a survey released Thursday morning.
In the survey by the National Association for College Admission Counseling, a leading membership group, a majority of college counselors responded that they had “negative opinions” of the U.S. News rankings and suggested that they “offer misleading conclusions about institutional quality.” Specifically,.... ***_
Full story: http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/nacac-on-usnews/?src=twrhp


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## hammer (May 19, 2011)

Should have mentioned...son is going to UMASS Amherst.  His choice to go there but having to only pay in-state rates of ~$20K/year is definitely better than trying to figure out how to handle $50K/year for a private school.

A few things I noticed were that


he got accepted into the schools that I expected he would
financial aid and scholarships may be out there, but not for us... :-(


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## SkiFanE (May 19, 2011)

hammer said:


> Should have mentioned...son is going to UMASS Amherst.  His choice to go there but having to only pay in-state rates of ~$20K/year is definitely better than trying to figure out how to handle $50K/year for a private school.
> 
> A few things I noticed were that
> 
> ...



Yahoo..my alma mater (where I met hubby).  Good choice.  Got out without any debt.  Not sure I made the most of my education, too much socializing.  I wouldn't choose it over Ivy League, but considering I work alongside very few Ivy grads (except for the doctors), I do work alongside people that spent 2-3x as much as I did on my education (BU, BC, Stonehill, Merrimac, UNH, etc..) and we are in the same jobs..so what was the point of spending all that $?!

Edited..for dorms, he should try for Central first (most laid back).  I was in Southwest highrise as freshman, then got to a lowrise..that turned out to be 'THE' druggy dorm.  Maybe that had something to do with my over-socializing?  Oh..who knows what has changed over 20+ years..but I suspect not that.


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## ChileMass (May 24, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> Yahoo..my alma mater (where I met hubby).  Good choice.  Got out without any debt.  Not sure I made the most of my education, too much socializing.  I wouldn't choose it over Ivy League, but considering I work alongside very few Ivy grads (except for the doctors), I do work alongside people that spent 2-3x as much as I did on my education (BU, BC, Stonehill, Merrimac, UNH, etc..) and we are in the same jobs..so what was the point of spending all that $?!
> 
> Edited..for dorms, he should try for Central first (most laid back).  I was in Southwest highrise as freshman, then got to a lowrise..that turned out to be 'THE' druggy dorm.  Maybe that had something to do with my over-socializing?  Oh..who knows what has changed over 20+ years..but I suspect not that.




Thanks for the validation - as a father of a just-finished freshman daughter at UMass, I have to say it was the best possible choice we could have made.  It was her choice anyway, so it saves us some $$$, but she LOVES IT.  She was in Central (Butterfield) this year, and got great grades while making lots of friends.  It could not have turned out any better.  

My neighbors just *agonized* for months over 11 (!!) private schools for their daughter (senior in HS) and finally chose Wake Forest at $55K per year.  I overheard her Mom wondering how in hell they're going to pay for it, and when I asked the daughter what she planned to major in, she replied that she had no idea.  This is not a good plan........

I live in a relatively well-off town in East/Central Mass where waaaaay too many kids are waaaaaay too spoiled and parents think that if they don't send their kid to Stanford or Villanova or Syracuse or BC that little Johnny or Janie is getting short-changed.  What pampered bullshit.  Wait till Johnny and Janie (and Mom and Dad) have to start paying back $200K in school bills.....

Stupid....


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## riverc0il (May 24, 2011)

ChileMass said:


> My neighbors just *agonized* for months over 11 (!!) private schools for their daughter (senior in HS) and finally chose Wake Forest at $55K per year.  I overheard her Mom wondering how in hell they're going to pay for it, and when I asked the daughter what she planned to major in, she replied that she had no idea.  This is not a good plan........
> 
> I live in a relatively well-off town in East/Central Mass where waaaaay too many kids are waaaaaay too spoiled and parents think that if they don't send their kid to Stanford or Villanova or Syracuse or BC that little Johnny or Janie is getting short-changed.  What pampered bullshit.  Wait till Johnny and Janie (and Mom and Dad) have to start paying back $200K in school bills.....
> 
> Stupid....


$55k/year. Wow.  That is too much if you don't even know what major you want to study. I think there are studies out there showing that the name of the school you graduate from does not correlate to future success or salary or something like that. In some cases, you really might need a specific name. Or a certain school might have one of the best programs in the country for a specific major. But otherwise, ick. The difference between a big name school and regular school is a down payment on a house and then some. Hard to justify if someone is going into college undeclared.


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## hammer (May 24, 2011)

ChileMass said:


> Thanks for the validation - as a father of a just-finished freshman daughter at UMass, I have to say it was the best possible choice we could have made.  It was her choice anyway, so it saves us some $$$, but she LOVES IT.  She was in Central (Butterfield) this year, and got great grades while making lots of friends.  It could not have turned out any better.
> 
> My neighbors just *agonized* for months over 11 (!!) private schools for their daughter (senior in HS) and finally chose Wake Forest at $55K per year.  I overheard her Mom wondering how in hell they're going to pay for it, and when I asked the daughter what she planned to major in, she replied that she had no idea.  This is not a good plan........
> 
> ...


Thanks for the validation on UMASS.  I'm still concerned about the size of the school but we'll have to see how that works out.

Regarding cost, if our son was really set on a private school we would have somehow figured out a way to pay for it.  He wasn't, though...I think UMASS was his favorite from when we first started going on school tours.

I know I've been out for a long time (coming up on 25 years since getting my BS degree) but even just over $20K for a state school is a lot IMO.



SkiFanE said:


> Yahoo..my alma mater (where I met hubby).  Good choice.  Got out without any debt.  Not sure I made the most of my education, too much socializing.  I wouldn't choose it over Ivy League, but considering I work alongside very few Ivy grads (except for the doctors), I do work alongside people that spent 2-3x as much as I did on my education (BU, BC, Stonehill, Merrimac, UNH, etc..) and we are in the same jobs..so what was the point of spending all that $?!
> 
> Edited..for dorms, he should try for Central first (most laid back).  I was in Southwest highrise as freshman, then got to a lowrise..that turned out to be 'THE' druggy dorm.  Maybe that had something to do with my over-socializing?  Oh..who knows what has changed over 20+ years..but I suspect not that.



 He's actually signed up for one of the Southwest low rises, but it's in a  special residence program where he's on the same floor as others who  are interested in the health sciences.  I'm hoping he will get  additional information when he goes to summer orientation in a few  weeks.  I am concerned about the dorm environment and I plan on doing some checking myself during parent orientation...but it is ultimately my son's choice, good, bad, or otherwise.


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## meff (May 24, 2011)

Another UMass alum here - great school and it totally is what you make of it.

And if Chancellor Holub is renewed it will continue to get better under his leadership.  So far he has raised the average incoming SAT and GPA, played a key roll in upgrading the football program and has created a new living area for the honors program - yet there was an article in the Globe that the board wants to fire him.  

As far as the dorms, I'd totally be going for North Residential area which is the newest area.  I loved living it southwest, but its not for everyone.

We still are back on campus a lot between going to football and hockey games and its changed a lot in the last five to ten years with a lot of new buildings.


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## krisskis (May 25, 2011)

I also am going through, but just about done, with the college choice for my son who is a senior. He applied to alot of schools too. Good student...honor roll...4 college level classes this year, 1 AP class, 3 college level classes as a junior but no activities. Joined clubs went to a meeting or 2 and then quit. Played football and lacrosse for years and then quit in his JV and varsity years. I tell you, even with the grades its hard to get accepted. I told him to apply to all types of schools...private, SUNY, CUNY and whatnot. Heres how it worked out....

Pace University-Manhattan...accepted...$52K/year for tuition, room and board.
SUNY Stony Brook...not accepted...under $5K/year tuition...$10K/year room and board.
SUNY Albany...accepted...same as above.
Long Island University/CW Post...accepted...about $42K/year tuition room and board.
Mercy College-Dobbs Ferry NY...accepted into Honors College...about $38K/year tuition room and board.
Northeastern University...not accepted
Hofstra University..Long Island...accepted...about $48K/year tuition room and board.
CUNY/City College of New York...accepted...under $5K/year tuition...about $13K/year for dorming.

All the private schools offered him academic scholarships between $10K and $15K/year.

He knows his major which is Biology and he is heading for a Phsycian Assistants Program and hoping to do Emergency/Trauma when he graduates. He had his heart set on Pace, but trying to get a 17 yr old to understand that he was going to come out of college with what basically amounted to owing a mortgage wasnt getting through his thick head. He also wants out of the house and away but not THAT far away...he works 2 jobs here on Long Island and wants to be able to work a bit during weekends. So after doing a last minute campus tour of CUNY/CCNY in the middle of April of THIS year  He fell in love with the campus and the school and the dorms!! Came home..sent in the deposits and away he goes!! And he is just a subway and LIRR train ride away from home  We decided he will take the gov't loan for his tuition ( we dont qualify for any financial aid) which will help him build a credit history and I will pay for his dorming. The school is very well respected and they have a fantastic medical school/PA program there (Sophie Davis Medical School) So he doesnt even need to leave for graduate school if he doesnt want to, but is possibly looking at Duke for grad school. But we have to get through 4 yrs undergrad first...LOL.

I am glad the search is over...for now. In a couple years i start again with my 8th grade daughter. I am hoping for sports scholarships to help with her as she is looking at Duke, Notre Dame, UNC, Marist and a few others known for their lacrosse programs. She has been a starting girls lacrosse goalie since 2nd grade and girl lax goalies from LI do pretty well with scholarships 

Good luck to everyone and their kids!!


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## Geoff (May 25, 2011)

A college is only as good as the students they educate.   Economics have turned UMass Amherst into a much better school.   Back in the mid-1970's when I was applying, UMass was my emergency backup school and had the ZooMass reputation of being party-central.   As more and more people got priced out of private schools, the quality of the average student at UMass got better and better.   If you have not-so-bright underachievers as your classmates, the profs have no choice but to dumb down their classes.   If you go to a college that is quite selective, the students can handle a more aggressive course of study.

Personally, I don't think that the economics of 4 years away at a college make any sense with today's prices.   For entry level courses, you get pretty much the same material at your local state college as you do at the larger school where you have to pay for housing.   Ignoring the social implications, you're probably better off doing 2 years at a local school paying out of cash flow instead of borrowing and then transfer to a better school to do your last two years once you've sorted out what you want to study.   That way, you don't end up in the trap of being saddled with $50K in school loans before you flunk out.


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## SkiFanE (May 25, 2011)

krisskis said:


> I also am going through, but just about done, with the college choice for my son who is a senior. He applied to alot of schools too. Good student...honor roll...4 college level classes this year, 1 AP class, 3 college level classes as a junior but no activities. Joined clubs went to a meeting or 2 and then quit. Played football and lacrosse for years and then quit in his JV and varsity years. I tell you, even with the grades its hard to get accepted. I told him to apply to all types of schools...private, SUNY, CUNY and whatnot. Heres how it worked out....
> 
> Pace University-Manhattan...accepted...$52K/year for tuition, room and board.
> SUNY Stony Brook...not accepted...under $5K/year tuition...$10K/year room and board.
> ...



Interesting.  Thanks for the run down.  I have a freshman in HS, and we had the reality check discussion a few months ago.  After she was talking about going to college in CA or FL, or Colby or $$$.  That we can't pay for that.  And she does NOT want to assume loans, and we are not doing it on her behalf.  We have 3 kids, x $200k = $600k...bwhahah.  We probably would get no aid, we can afford state college w/o debt, so it's up to scholarships and things to make up diff.  She was a slacker in MS until 8th grade when she put the after burners on.  Since our talk, she's been busting ass.  She's also getting stressed, not sleeping.  Talked last week and she said she is working hard to get As to get scholarships.  She wants to do some peer/mentor leadership next year, b/c it looks good on a college app.  I hate that it's stressing her out, but if she knew she had a blank check, I don't think she'd be working so hard.  

Funny about being a goalie.  She started field hockey as a freshman, and volunteered as goalie and turned out to  be terrific, coaches and team loved her, called her a natural.  We don't know the scholarship possibilities, but she's going to continue next year.

And congrats to your son.  Sounds like things worked out well in the end for everyone.


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## SkiFanE (May 25, 2011)

Geoff said:


> A college is only as good as the students they educate.   Economics have turned UMass Amherst into a much better school.   Back in the mid-1970's when I was applying, UMass was my emergency backup school and had the ZooMass reputation of being party-central.   As more and more people got priced out of private schools, the quality of the average student at UMass got better and better.   If you have not-so-bright underachievers as your classmates, the profs have no choice but to dumb down their classes.   If you go to a college that is quite selective, the students can handle a more aggressive course of study.
> 
> Personally, I don't think that the economics of 4 years away at a college make any sense with today's prices.   For entry level courses, you get pretty much the same material at your local state college as you do at the larger school where you have to pay for housing.   Ignoring the social implications, you're probably better off doing 2 years at a local school paying out of cash flow instead of borrowing and then transfer to a better school to do your last two years once you've sorted out what you want to study.   That way, you don't end up in the trap of being saddled with $50K in school loans before you flunk out.



I went in mid-80s.  We blamed the zoo-massers for ruining things for us, they outlawed kegs in dorms after someone tossed a keg down the elevator shaft from 20th floor of highrise.  The injustice...had to haul up cases      How times have changed.


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## Nick (May 25, 2011)

I'm a big fan of state schools for the price alone. I was in the air guard in college and basically college was free. I went to Bridgewater State in MA for my bachelors, and then spent 10x that getting my master's degree at Bentley later. I'm still not sure it was worth it.


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## Nick (May 25, 2011)

krisskis said:


> Pace University-Manhattan...accepted...*$52K/year* for tuition, room and board.
> Long Island University/CW Post...accepted...about *$42K/year tuition* room and board.
> Mercy College-Dobbs Ferry NY...accepted into Honors College...about *$38K/year* tuition room and board.
> Hofstra University..Long Island...accepted...about *$48K/year* tuition room and board.



Holy Shit! 

Has it gone up that much just in the eight years since I went to my undergrad? When I was in college from 1999 -2003, all the private schools were right around the $20 - $25k mark. It's literally _doubled_ since then??!! 

By the time I have kids in college it will probably be $150k / year. :roll:


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2011)

When I entered Skidmore College in Fall of 94, tuition, room and board was 28K, so these 50K figures don't surprise me much.  

My kids will get tennis rackets in their hands at 5 months :lol:


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## SkiFanE (May 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> When I entered Skidmore College in Fall of 94, tuition, room and board was 28K, so these 50K figures don't surprise me much.
> 
> My kids will get tennis rackets in their hands at 5 months :lol:



I left Umass and it was $5k/year with room and board (in-state) in late 80s.  By 1991-ish it had already doubled and was up to $10k/year.  It's now about $20/k.

Look into obscure things.  Javelin and discus?  lol.  Run from soccer, too much competition.


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2011)

I transferred in state to University of Vermont.  Tuition and fees was around 9K in the mid -late 90s for residents.  Not sure what the board was as I lived off campus.  

My brother went to Colorado State in the mid 90s and tuition was 3K/yr for residents.


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## Warp Daddy (May 25, 2011)

I put a couple kids thru Pharmacy at UB  and a Masters program in MATH AND SPENT LESS THAN 50 K FOR 10 YRS AND 3 DEGREES IN THE 90'S . At the same time i was in a PhD and my wife was doing her undergrad as a non trad student .


All in all a super return on investment  for us ,

 But  given today's "champagne  pricing" strategies at several institutions who often provide payoff for   the majority of those who enter beforehand (WITH SOCIAL CAPITAL beforehand  ie old $$$ , or the  nouveau riche. or old family connectedness ie social register )  are simply not a good choice  for  todays 2 income professional families who because of income face the possibility of limited  "GIFT AID "  FA pkgs


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## Nick (May 27, 2011)

I seriously don't think I would ever encourage my kids to go to a school that would leave them with a $200k plus loan. And that's just for undergrad. They do grad school and now they owe $300k. That's a decent sized house in a lot of parts right about now. You're paying $1500 a month for 30 years to pay that off. How is that even possible when starting salaries are like $50k a year for some jobs, if you are lucky.


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## hammer (May 27, 2011)

SkiFanE said:


> Look into obscure things.  Javelin and discus?  lol.  Run from soccer, too much competition.


My kids are not into sports so not a factor for us...but is getting a sports scholarship a good thing?  I'd be concerned about time demands for the sport competing with studies.

I was on an ROTC scholarship (thanks to the taxpayers for funding my education) and the time demands there weren't too bad...and they were willing to cut cadets slack on ROTC activities if they were having academic problems.


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## meff (May 28, 2011)

Trust me, the athletic department more than takes care of the students with tutors and limits of team activities.


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## gmcunni (Apr 10, 2012)

was up @ Syracuse yesterday, son got in and its his number 1 choice.


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## hammer (Apr 10, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> was up @ Syracuse yesterday, son got in and its his number 1 choice.


Congrats to your son.

Good video...I'll let you know how I feel in a few years when kiddo #2 wants to go to some expen$ive private school. :roll:


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## o3jeff (Apr 10, 2012)

Do online classes, cheaper!


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## ScottySkis (Apr 10, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> was up @ Syracuse yesterday, son got in and its his number 1 choice.



Congratulations to him, lot's of snow up their.


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## gmcunni (Apr 10, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Congratulations to him, lot's of snow up their.



i was looking for piles of snow yesterday but they're all gone already.   too bad there aren't any great ski hill close to the school. I think greek peak is closest "big" mountain but that's still an hour or so away, i think.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 10, 2012)

Gary :   In addition to Greek Peak , U got Labrador ( nice hill) , Song Mtn and Toggenburg all about 700 vert a half hr south of the Dome .   Then if ur ever there in a Lake Effect  DUMPAGE-- try Snow Ridge for an experience .

SU huh ??  may see you at the "Loud House " sometimes  for some great hoops   BTW watch out for  the Marshall St run -------------hehehehehe


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