# Sick of fake snow



## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

I haven't been skiing that long. BUT, I'm done skiing fake snow. Someone really needs to make a snowgun that pumps out snow that doesn't turn to ice/crud in a second instead of using 40 year old tech. I'm not going skiing anymore unless it's real snow. I'm sick of it. I just don't have fun in ice/crud crap. It's really quite amazing how quickly that stuff turns to shit. They were blowing snow yesterday at the place in ct I went all night. I went in the morning first thing and ALREADY it turns to crud/hardpack. It was 0 degrees with low humidity out so "perfect" snow making weather My ski's were chattering like crazy.(they don't chatter at all on real snow groomers) That's how hard it was *already*. Nothing like skiing the real stuff groomed where it's beautiful smooth and much more fun. It's actual SNOW you're skiing. I've decided I will never buy a pass anywhere near me. Just not enough natural snow.I'm only buying a lift ticket when it's snowed(doesn't have to be a lot of snow....even 2 inches is enough to drastically change the conditions assuming they don't blow the fake crap at the same time)

In closing....snow guns suck(except to quickly build a base for natural to fall on)


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Without snowmaking there would be almoat no east coast skiing....

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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

Don't feed the Troll!! 

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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Don't feed the Troll!!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



Why are you even posting in my threads? You're the one clearly trolling me. I'm discussing skiing and giving an opinion. That's what this forum is for. Kiss my ass


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Without snowmaking there would be almoat no east coast skiing....
> 
> Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2



Yeah ec skiing sucks. (outside of lake effect regions where they actually get a descent amount of snow)I'd rather ride nothing than ice/crud crap. Someone needs to make a BETTER snowgun and just use the snowgun to lay base. Don't blow that shit when it's snowing out or has snowed in the past few days. I'm not paying for a lift ticket to ride ice anymore. I'm just going when it has snowed. Hopefully these area's aren't blowing snow during that time. The worst is when they blow the fake stuff AFTER it stops snowing naturally in the middle of the night. It will totally wreck it.


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## dlague (Jan 9, 2014)

November, December and possibly January would not have any skiing and the industry as we know it would die in New England.  Snow making when *not touched *by warmer days, better yet #ain is very still nice to ski on.  One of the problems is that some ski areas start early snow making knowing that there is high probability for melting or #ain and then it becomes very hard (frozen).  Guess what - natural snow that gets packed down and groomed or untouched even gets the same way when it melts or #ained on.  Try going in the woods right now - no snow making there and it is hard as a rock!  Snow making is much of the reason there is skiing into late April and early May!

When I was 19 I worked on a snow making crew and I know from experience that snow makers work hard and have very tough hours under harsh conditions - respect!


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

dlague said:


> November, December and possibly January would not have any skiing and the industry as we know it would die in New England.  Snow making when *not touched *by warmer days, better yet #ain is very still nice to ski on.  One of the problems is that some ski areas start early snow making knowing that there is high probability for melting or #ain and then it becomes very hard (frozen).  Guess what - natural snow that gets packed down and groomed or untouched even gets the same way when it melts or #ained on.  Try going in the woods right now - no snow making there and it is hard as a rock!  Snow making is much of the reason there is skiing into late April and early May!
> 
> When I was 19 I worked on a snow making crew and I know from experience that snow makers work hard and have very tough hours under harsh conditions - respect!


I understand you need snow making due to lack of natural snow. *I'm **simply stating I'm not paying for a lift ticket anymore unless it's real snow and I wish they wouldn't blow snow when it's snowing naturally* As far as how hard someone is working? I don't see the relevance there since I never stated anything about that(ie if the snowmakers worked harder it would be better). I'm saying the machines themselves suck. 

As far as natural snow becoming hard as a rock....that only happens with a melt/thaw cycle. It was 50 degrees and raining and then dropped to 0 degrees! Of course anything will turn to crap when that happens. The difference is that fake snow turns to ice no matter withing hours(sometimes minutes) of being groomed/touched/skied on. The real stuff will last good for days assuming no severe thaw. Also, the groomers can fix the natural snow if it just has a thin layer of ice on top. The fake stuff turns ice/crud quick. They should call it crud machines....not snow machines 

Oh and there was a ski industry here before snowguns, but I agree you need them to lay down a base due to lack of natural.


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## drjeff (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I haven't been skiing that long. BUT, I'm done skiing fake snow. Someone really needs to make a snowgun that pumps out snow that doesn't turn to ice/crud in a second instead of using 40 year old tech. I'm not going skiing anymore unless it's real snow. I'm sick of it. I just don't have fun in ice/crud crap. It's really quite amazing how quickly that stuff turns to shit. They were blowing snow yesterday at the place in ct I went all night. I went in the morning first thing and ALREADY it turns to crud/hardpack. It was 0 degrees with low humidity out so "perfect" snow making weather My ski's were chattering like crazy.(they don't chatter at all on real snow groomers) That's how hard it was *already*. Nothing like skiing the real stuff groomed where it's beautiful smooth and much more fun. It's actual SNOW you're skiing. I've decided I will never buy a pass anywhere near me. Just not enough natural snow.I'm only buying a lift ticket when it's snowed(doesn't have to be a lot of snow....even 2 inches is enough to drastically change the conditions assuming they don't blow the fake crap at the same time)
> 
> In closing....snow guns suck(except to quickly build a base for natural to fall on)



Manmade snow when done right in the proper conditions with the proper PATIENCE from both the mountain and the skiing/riding public can be 98% of what natural snow is.

All too often when enough manmade snow is present, a ski area will quickly drop the ropes on a trail to get it open.  In reality, that manmade snow needs to sit and drain and dry out a bit before it should be manipulated, either by skiers/riders or grooming equipment.  If you get the chance to ski on some fresh manmade snow that has had a good 24hrs or so to just sit their and drain and dry out, without and disturbance, it will ski/ride very close to most groomed natural snow surfaces.  

Early manipulation to manmade snow tends to cause it it set up and feel firm or icy soon after the guns are shut off.  Most of it has to do with the crystalline shape of manmade snow vs. natural snow, where manmade tends to be more round and hence ends up being more dense as the crystalline piece "fit" together tighter than natural snow with it's classic "snowflake" shapes which allows more air between the flakes and causes them to "fit together" less tightly.

All snow is good in my book! I will agree though that some snow is better than other snow.  But as long as I'm sliding downhill on it will a couple of "planks" attached to my feet, I'm all good with snow!


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## dlague (Jan 9, 2014)

To each there own - I will ski it!  That all I have ever known!


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## JimG. (Jan 9, 2014)

You need to move out west. Without manmade you'll be skiing rocks and dirt on the EC.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Manmade snow when done right in the proper conditions with the proper PATIENCE from both the mountain and the skiing/riding public can be 98% of what natural snow is.
> 
> All too often when enough manmade snow is present, a ski area will quickly drop the ropes on a trail to get it open.  I*n reality, that manmade snow needs to sit and drain and dry out a bit before it should be manipulated, either by skiers/riders or grooming equipment. * If you get the chance to ski on some fresh manmade snow that has had a good 24hrs or so to just sit their and drain and dry out, without and disturbance, it will ski/ride very close to most groomed natural snow surfaces.
> 
> ...


That bold sentence is very Interesting. They could do that in ct if they just do one or two trails at a time rather than being obsessed with being 100% open. I've noticed something as well. When they are actively blowing snow on a trail and there's a thin layer of untouched fake over the groomer.....it's not that bad! It's not icy. It's not as good as real snow, but a million times better than the usual ice/crud. It closes the gap. I think it's once they groom/compress the fake snow due to it's higher water content that it ices up. I'm also wondering if they just blew a 1/2 inch laye over the groomer lines that it would solve a lot of the problems and stop the icing? In other words....blow a ton of snow....let it sit for a while....then groom....then....blow a thin layer over the top? If I managed a mountian, I would definetly experiment with this. You'll have a much better product for people


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## soposkier (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Yeah ec skiing sucks. (outside of lake effect regions where they actually get a descent amount of snow)I'd rather ride nothing than ice/crud crap. Someone needs to make a BETTER snowgun and just use the snowgun to lay base. Don't blow that shit when it's snowing out or has snowed in the past few days. I'm not paying for a lift ticket to ride ice anymore. I'm just going when it has snowed. Hopefully these area's aren't blowing snow during that time. The worst is when they blow the fake stuff AFTER it stops snowing naturally in the middle of the night. It will totally wreck it.




Don't ski groomers and you are all set.  Plenty of non snowmaking trails out there. You ever ski outside of connecticut? When conditions are like they are right now, manmade is unfortunately your only option.  I agree that I would usually not buy a day ticket when conditions are like this, but without manmade there would be no skiing right now.  Look at MRG, no snowmaking and not open right now.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Also, making snow whales could also be a source of the problem. Why not just move the guns around more so that the groomers don't have to tear that apart and severely compress it. I notice when the groomers are moving those whales, the snow is forming into CHUNKS. I bet that plays into as well


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

Sharpen your edges and learn the joy of a good carve.


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 9, 2014)

Do yourself a favor:  just go ski whenever you can, whether it's manmade or natural.  If you can ski in New England, you can ski anywhere.  When the natural falls, you will ski it that much better, and you will enjoy it more.  In my book, manmade trumps dirt, rocks and grass.  If not for manmade, most of New England's mountains would be screwed.  Especially the ones in your neck of the woods. My local mountain is 100% open due to snowmaking, and I am grateful for it.


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## drjeff (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Also, making snow whales could also be a source of the problem. Why not just move the guns around more so that the groomers don't have to tear that apart and severely compress it. I notice when the groomers are moving those whales, the snow is forming into CHUNKS. I bet that plays into as well




Surprisingly enough, the whales, when utilized correctly, will provide long term a superior product to a thin top dressing of manmade snow. First off the larger vertical mass of a whale actually allows the new, "wet" mandmade crystalline snow to drain better since there is less of the final product exposed to the cold air and the overall chances of a frozen, icy final product are decreased.  Secondly, if there's any chance of warmth in the near future, and whale will hold up better, with less snow loss than a thin layer of manmade snow.  

Grooming a whale out that has had enough time to "dry" will provide a very nice, smooth, consistant surface to make turns on.  If its groomed out too soon, then you can get some larger, frozen chunks.  

There are sometimes, such as when an area is trying to get open early season, with marginal temps that they will groom out manmade snow early, with the intent to get some freeze up to form some solid base snow, since once an area has a decent amount of base snow on a trail, then even without fresh snowmaking, they can recover from a thaw/freeze with a good surface, but utilizing the same principles (let the snow drain before grooming it) and then they can also "dig" down into some of the deeper base snow and mix that with the top layer.  Most modern grooming is far more than just making passes over the snow with the groomer and it's tiller down. there's a bunch of snow farming and moving of snow around the trail from areas where it gets pushed to by downhill traffic back into areas where it's needed, sometimes, even without the presence of a thaw/freeze it will see a trail being "taken" apart, the layers mixed and spread around and then regroomed overnight, and all this happens without the vast majority of skiers/riders realizing it.

Modern, good snowmaking an grooming is a mix of art, science, patience and mother nature.  And sometimes that last variable, mother nature will ultimately trump the art, science and patience.  And when she does, that in the ends makes us better skiers and riders for learning to adapt and concur her wrath!


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Yes the ski industry did exist before mass snowmaking. There would be years that some places barely operated and ended up losing tons of money. 
You talk of how to make snow like your a expert on the subject(just like helmets.....) but you fail to consider that these mtns have been making snow for a long time with lots of experimentaion. 
Yea blowing snow at 1/2" intervals might make some decent snow but no work would ever get done. When there is conditions to make snow, you make it at full blast while you can.
This yearbhas been horrible for conditions. Heavy rains and warm temps followed by deep freeze.
The 3 mtns I know of with minimal snow making MRG/Magic/Hickory are either not open, or barely operating.
Give me manmade any day!

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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Why are you even posting in my threads? You're the one clearly trolling me. I'm discussing skiing and giving an opinion. That's what this forum is for. Kiss my ass



Because I don't like you. You do not own the thread. I do what I want. You post nonsense and present it as fact. Your opinion sucks. 

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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Yes the ski industry did exist before mass snowmaking. There would be years that some places barely operated and ended up losing tons of money.
> *You talk of how to make snow like your a expert on the subject(just like helmets.....)* but you fail to consider that these mtns have been making snow for a long time with lots of experimentaion.
> Yea blowing snow at 1/2" intervals might make some decent snow but no work would ever get done. When there is conditions to make snow, you make it at full blast while you can.
> This yearbhas been horrible for conditions. Heavy rains and warm temps followed by deep freeze.
> ...


Here's an example of a smart ass attack comment. Just pointing it out. I was putting out possible ways it could improve. Not saying that it would work. You don't need to an expert on snowmaking to understand that it's nothing like the real thing and I personally hate skiing on fake snow and personally(I) will not pay to ride anymore. It has nothing to do with sharp edges. I can still edge it. I just don't enjoy it like the real thing. It's sort of like having sex with an ugly obese woman vs a thin beautiful woman. Sure their both "sex", but really no comparison. I don't care about being able to "handle any conditions".  I just want to have fun, which is why I'm paying for a lift ticket. It's not a charity. lol


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Because I don't like you. You do not own the thread. I do what I want. You post nonsense and present it as fact. Your opinion sucks.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


And you think I like you? I don't talk to people I don't like. Are you like 10? poopie head....what a douche you are.

It's nonsense that fake snow sucks compared to the real thing? Oh yeah I'm really going out on a limb there.I'm the only person that's ever said that! :roll::roll:That's why people fly out to nh from the midwest to ski instead of outwest because that ice is soooo much better than feet of snow at alta.....You just got owned pal. You're a little bitch. Stop talking to me or answering my threads and get a life. You can't handle someone that has a different opinion that you and you can't handle the fact that ec skiing sucks compared to west because of your ego.(delusional loser posting on internet forums and thinks he's all that) I'm an ecoaster and I'm just honest about it.


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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> And you think I like you? I don't talk to people I don't like. Are you like 10? poopie head....what a douche you are.
> 
> It's nonsense that fake snow sucks compared to the real thing? Oh yeah I'm really going out on a limb there.I'm the only person that's ever said that! :roll::roll:That's why people fly out to nh from the midwest to ski instead of outwest because that ice is soooo much better than feet of snow at alta.....You just got owned pal. You're a little bitch. Stop talking to me or answering my threads and get a life. You can't handle someone that has a different opinion that you and you can handle the fact that ec skiing sucks compared to west because of your ego.(delusional loser posting on internet forums and thinks he's all that)



Lol now you've degraded to personal insults? Awesome bring it Internet tuff guy, I've got all day. 



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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

twinplanx = ignore list....lol Thank god for that feature.


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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm winning  

I hope by ignoring me I don't have to see the nonsense you post here as well. 

Good luck in the real world lol
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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm just going save my money for trips instead of wasting money to ride ice. Oh and of course if skiing was my life I would move out west.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm so controversial/troll

1)People shouldn't be forced to wear a helmet at a ski area.

2)You can ride powder on blue trails and at places like the lake effect area's

3)Fake snow sucks compared to the real thing and turns to ice quickly. Rather just save my money for real snow.

I don't think I'm the problem at all. Some of the asshole's on here area. Some of you people just can't handle a different opinion(and a popular opinion.Real snow is better) so you gang up and attack and then flag posts trying to get user banned so you don't have to hear something your crazy ass doesn't agree with. Typical internet forum. And most of you take yourselves way to seriously. Skiiing is for fun. Not to "prove" yourself. How many of you are pro skiers? Unless it's paying the bills then you are paying someone to ski. I want to have fun when I pay someone. Just my 2 cents.


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## hammer (Jan 9, 2014)

skiing on natural snow > skiing on man-made snow > not skiing


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

hammer said:


> skiing on natural snow > skiing on man-made snow > not skiing



Winner!


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Oh and one last thing. I didn't mention the ski area i went to because I didn't want to seem like I was ragging on them since it's NOT their fault it didn't snow. Their doing the best they can


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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi 





Snowlover said:


> I'm so TROLL
> 
> I am the PROBLEM Some of the asshole's on here area. Some of you people just can't handle a different opinion(and a popular opinion.Real snow is better) so you gang up and attack and then flag posts trying to get user banned so you don't have to hear something your crazy ass doesn't agree with. Typical internet forum.



Your original post DID NOT state such an opinion. You said you were "done skiing man made" or something to that effect. That is in contrary to the majority opinion on AZ. We realize that snowmaking is vital to our region. And will happily ski it, and if you won't, then that would be GREAT ;-) 

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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

hammer said:


> skiing on natural snow > skiing on man-made snow > not skiing


Hey I can totally understand that. Sort of like when you haven't gotten laid in a while and there's a fat chick at the end of the bar. It's better than nothing


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## ScottySkis (Jan 9, 2014)

Choices real snow falls in the Catskills NY. Western Catskills get lake effect. My favorite local hill in Roxbury gets average of 175 snow a year. Snow making guns they have a few not many. When weather is bad I dont go their. When it is good the place in heaven.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

What really drives me nuts is when ski area's claim it's the same thing as the real stuff like that okemo radio ad. Can someone PLEASE invent a snowgun that shoots out a better product. It would make my ec ass so happy!


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Scotty said:


> Choices real snow falls in the Catskills NY. Western Catskills get lake effect. My favorite local hill in Roxbury gets average of 175 snow a year. Snow making guns they have a few not many. When weather is bad I dont go their. When it is good the place in heaven.


You're lucky. You're in a good location. Have a few choices. Imagine being in ct? Tug hill is a 4 hour drive so that's an overnighter for me. I could never handle 8 + hours of driving and skiing all day. Makes more sense to stay in a lodge and get a few days skiing in. I image those ski area's south of buffalo do well as well. They get dumped on.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 9, 2014)

Good!  One less person in the liftline ahead of me.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I don't think I'm the problem at all. Some of the asshole's on here area. Some of you people just can't handle a different opinion(and a popular opinion.Real snow is better) so you gang up and attack and then flag posts trying to get user banned so you don't have to hear something your crazy ass doesn't agree with. Typical internet forum. And most of you take yourselves way to seriously. Skiiing is for fun. Not to "prove" yourself. How many of you are pro skiers? Unless it's paying the bills then you are paying someone to ski. I want to have fun when I pay someone. Just my 2 cents.




We dont hate you for your opinion. We hate you because of how you can not understand that there are people who think different then you. You just screem how we are idiots because we do not see everything your way.
And yes I do get my paycheck from skiing...


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## soposkier (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> You're lucky. You're in a good location. Have a few choices. Imagine being in ct? Tug hill is a 4 hour drive so that's an overnighter for me. I could never handle 8 + hours of driving and skiing all day. Makes more sense to stay in a lodge and get a few days skiing in. I image those ski area's south of buffalo do well as well. They get dumped on.



So are you saying the best skiing in the east is in Western/Central New York simply because they get the most amount of snow?


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> We dont hate you for your opinion. We hate you because of how you can not understand that there are people who think different then you. You just screem how we are idiots because we do not see everything your way.
> And yes I do get my paycheck from skiing...


So you're an Olympian? Endoresement deals? Or a ski instructor/work at a ski area?
Follow the threads very closely. See who makes the personal attacks/smart ass remarks *first.*


> You talk of how to make snow like your a expert on the subject(just like helmets.....)


 At what point before that did I make a personal attack? Oh and what was the FIRST reply?....don't feed troll. I had not attacked anyone at that point. Simply gave the opinion fake snow sucks, whicha  ton of people agree with except for a few ec "hardcore" skiers who don't want to admit their home turf sucks compared to outwest and are jealous. So you can clearly see who can't handle a different opinion. Oh and these opinions are actually quite common and quite frankly common sense. There not out there type of stuff.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2014)

I think I'm just going to watch this time


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## jaysunn (Jan 9, 2014)

O Yeah - This gun floats my boat/skis. 

http://www.killington.com/winter/multimedia/webcam/superstar.html


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Hey I can totally understand that. Sort of like when you haven't gotten laid in a while and there's a fat chick at the end of the bar. It's better than nothing



Staying classy


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> So you're an Olympian? Endoresement deals? Or a ski instructor/work at a ski area?
> Follow the threads very closely. See who makes the personal attacks/smart ass remarks *first.*
> At what point before that did I make a personal attack? Oh and what was the FIRST reply?....don't feed troll. I had not attacked anyone at that point. Simply gave the opinion fake snow sucks, whicha  ton of people agree with except for a few ec "hardcore" skiers who don't want to admit their home turf sucks compared to outwest and are jealous. So you can clearly see who can't handle a different opinion. Oh and these opinions are actually quite common and quite frankly common sense. There not out there type of stuff.



No, they are saying that man made is what it is and they'd rather ski that than nothing.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> So you're an Olympian? Endoresement deals? Or a ski instructor/work at a ski area?



Never said olympian. Just said the paycheck comes from skiing and the ski industry. Endorsments? No, but most of my gear is comped by manufactures, and all of my skiing as well. Manufactures have taken me on ski vacations to the west(the trails were lines with snow guns btw...).




Snowlover said:


> Follow the threads very closely. See who makes the personal attacks/smart ass remarks *first.*
> At what point before that did I make a personal attack? Oh and what was the FIRST reply?....don't feed troll. I had not attacked anyone at that point. Simply gave the opinion fake snow sucks, whicha  ton of people agree with except for a few ec "hardcore" skiers who don't want to admit their home turf sucks compared to outwest and are jealous. So you can clearly see who can't handle a different opinion. Oh and these opinions are actually quite common and quite frankly common sense. There not out there type of stuff.




You started all the name calling. Not in this thread, but by attacking others when their opinion differs from yours. 

Have fun hateing skiing. Why dont you go find a better activity you may enjoy?


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## billski (Jan 9, 2014)

*Winning*

*QUOTES
Mikaela Shiffrin*, after winning her sixth World Cup race on Saturday...

"It’s always good to keep  success going. I’m used to skiing in this kind of conditions because in  the East Coast it’s like this a lot. I just kind of get tough and go."

BORMIO, Italy (Jan. 5) - Teen Mikaela Shiffrin (Eagle-Vail, CO) sliced  through sloppy snow and rain to win the Bormio slalom for her third  straight Audi FIS Alpine World Cup top three finish. It was the sixth  World Cup slalom victory of her young career and comes just 33 days  before the start of the 2014 Olympic Winter Games in Sochi, Russia.  Leading by a slim .03 after the first run, Shiffrin powered through the  rutted snow to hold off a hard-charging Marie Pietilae-Holmner of Sweden  by .13 and bump her World Cup slalom points lead to 62 points over  Austrian Marlies Schild, who finished sixth.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Manmade snow when done right in the proper conditions with the proper PATIENCE from both the mountain and the skiing/riding public can be 98% of what natural snow is.



+1 (on groomed terrain)

That was the case on about 80% of the terrain at Crotched this morning.  There was still a few spots here and there of frozen granular on ice where they hadn't made snow, but those areas were few and far between.  The rest?  Skied almost identical to how the skiing has been after storms this season when the trails have been groomed out. Pure, quiet, butter corduroy where you only hear a wisp from your edges.  Super fun surface to blast high speed carved turns on; especially with no traffic on the trails to slow you down. 

Now, will it get skied off this weekend?  Absolutely.  It would if it were all natural as well.  The rain will likely screw things up again too.  Hopefully the mountain still has a bit of a snowmaking budget left to continue the awesome job they're doing at refreshing the trails when Ma Nature isn't cooperating. 

And I've skied my fair share of boiler plate out west too.  It's much more rare due to the dryer conditions, but I think the biggest factor is shear acreage and the vastly lower skier density on the hills.  Most places out west groom terrain acreage nightly that completely dwarfs an average eastern ski area.  If you groom 1400 acres of terrain and only 10K people show up, it's going to hold up a heck of a lot better than an Eastern Mountain that grooms 250 acres and 5K people show up.

Would I ever say the skiing in the East in the same stratosphere as the West?  No.  It's still pretty darn good much of the time.   Those that don't like it, please stay home.


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## ss20 (Jan 9, 2014)

There are two possibilities:

1. Are you new to the area?  You've only been on the forums for a month, yet you post like crazy so I'm guessing you're a hardcore skier from out west that just moved here and want to learn about the NE.  You can't live in CT, where annual snowfall is 20-60in, and expect that you'll be skiing on natural very much. 

2. You were in a coma for the last 20 years and didn't know about this thing called "global warming" that's causing more freeze/thaws and inconsistent snowfalls.

I don't know why you're so worked up over no natural snow in early January.  This is not uncommon.


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## ss20 (Jan 9, 2014)

hammer said:


> skiing on natural snow > skiing on man-made snow > not skiing>Tahoe



fixed it


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 9, 2014)

ss20 said:


> 2. You were in a coma for the last 20 years



Well he did admit in the helmet thread to hitting his head a lot.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2014)

ss20 said:


> There are two possibilities:
> 
> 1. Are you new to the area?  You've only been on the forums for a month, yet you post like crazy so I'm guessing you're a hardcore skier from out west that just moved here and want to learn about the NE.  You can't live in CT, where annual snowfall is 20-60in, and expect that you'll be skiing on natural very much.
> 
> ...



Oh boy I smell another exciting "global warming" thread.


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## ss20 (Jan 9, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Oh boy I smell another exciting "global warming" thread.



I'm not trying to start anything.  I don't even read the global warming threads anymore.  The earth may be warmer by 0.00000001 degrees, but that ain't goin' make no difference.


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## farlep99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I haven't been skiing that long. BUT, I'm done skiing fake snow. Someone really needs to make a snowgun that pumps out snow that doesn't turn to ice/crud in a second instead of using 40 year old tech. I'm not going skiing anymore unless it's real snow. I'm sick of it. I just don't have fun in ice/crud crap. It's really quite amazing how quickly that stuff turns to shit. They were blowing snow yesterday at the place in ct I went all night. I went in the morning first thing and ALREADY it turns to crud/hardpack. It was 0 degrees with low humidity out so "perfect" snow making weather My ski's were chattering like crazy.(they don't chatter at all on real snow groomers) That's how hard it was *already*. Nothing like skiing the real stuff groomed where it's beautiful smooth and much more fun. It's actual SNOW you're skiing. I've decided I will never buy a pass anywhere near me. Just not enough natural snow.I'm only buying a lift ticket when it's snowed(doesn't have to be a lot of snow....even 2 inches is enough to drastically change the conditions assuming they don't blow the fake crap at the same time)
> 
> In closing....snow guns suck(except to quickly build a base for natural to fall on)



"Perfect" snowmaking weather is actually more like 18-22degrees.

That aside most people prefer skiing natural snow & most people who ski a lot notice the difference between natural & fake.  I guess some people only ski when there's fresh snow & that's your prerogative, but you'll find you won't be skiing too often in the northeast.  And if we filter out places where twigs & weeds stick out of the ground from time to time (which we know you don't like) then you're not leaving yourself many options


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## ScottySkis (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> You're lucky. You're in a good location. Have a few choices. Imagine being in ct? Tug hill is a 4 hour drive so that's an overnighter for me. I could never handle 8 + hours of driving and skiing all day. Makes more sense to stay in a lodge and get a few days skiing in. I image those ski area's south of buffalo do well as well. They get dumped on.



But also keep in mind my favorite hill in Catskills because it depends on natural snow is great maybe 50% of time there open. I like good machine made snow. Hunter in Catskills started the fan guns which makes great snow at lots of hills.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 9, 2014)

Beats skiing down a waxed astroturf escalator.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

soposkier said:


> So are you saying the best skiing in the east is in Western/Central New York simply because they get the most amount of snow?


Obviously vertical/acreage ect does not compare to new england. Let's just state the obvious. If tug hill had the vertical of whiteface or vermont it would be turned into east coast whistler mega resort. If I had my choice between good snow at a tiny area with little vertical or whiteface with crap man made stuff, then the choice is obvious for me. The tiny area with a lot of snow. Obviously the best would vermont WITH a ton of natural snow.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

*Dover, vt forecast*, Now vt hasn't had any snow in about a week if I'm not mistaken?
Tonight Increasing clouds, with a low around 13. Light and variable wind.
Friday A chance of snow, mainly between 9am and 4pm. Cloudy, with a high near 30. South wind 5 to 7 mph. Chance of precipitation is 50%. New snow accumulation of less than one inch possible.
Friday Night A slight chance of snow, freezing rain, and sleet before 1am, then a chance of freezing rain. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 28. South wind around 5 mph becoming calm. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New snow and sleet accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
Saturday Rain, mainly after 7am. High near 50. South wind 8 to 11 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New precipitation amounts between a half and three quarters of an inch possible.
Saturday Night Rain, mainly before 4am. The rain could be heavy at times. Low around 33. South wind 9 to 11 mph becoming west after midnight. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New precipitation amounts between a half and three quarters of an inch possible.
Sunday A chance of rain and snow showers before 1pm, then a chance of rain showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 40. Breezy. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.
Sunday Night Mostly cloudy, with a low around 27.
Monday Mostly sunny, with a high near 43.
Monday Night A chance of rain showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 35. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Tuesday A chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 41. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
Tuesday Night A chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 29. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
Wednesday A chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 36. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Wednesday Night Partly cloudy, with a low around 20.
Thursday Mostly sunny, with a high near 30.

*Alta, utah forecast* http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.59518511581991&lon=-111.70225529931486#.Us8QUdJDu58

This Afternoon Snow. High near 24. Breezy, with a west wind around 29 mph, with gusts as high as 43 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Total daytime snow accumulation of 6 to 10 inches possible.
Tonight Snow likely, mainly before midnight. Cloudy, with a low around 15. Wind chill values as low as zero. Blustery, with a west northwest wind 17 to 22 mph decreasing to 9 to 14 mph after midnight. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 3 inches possible.
Friday Snow likely. Cloudy, with a high near 22. West southwest wind 10 to 17 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of 3 to 5 inches possible.
Friday Night A 50 percent chance of snow. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 22. West southwest wind around 9 mph. New snow accumulation of around an inch possible.
Saturday A 40 percent chance of snow, mainly after noon. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 38. Breezy, with a southwest wind 15 to 23 mph. New snow accumulation of less than one inch possible.
Saturday Night Snow. Low around 15. Windy. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of 4 to 8 inches possible.
Sunday Snow likely. Cloudy, with a high near 15. Windy. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of 3 to 5 inches possible.
Sunday Night A chance of snow. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 8. Blustery.
Monday A slight chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 29.

How on god's green earth anyone can even compare the east to the west is beyond me. And this is just the weather. It's not even taking into account terrain acerage. But search internet forums and you'll find a gang of jackass's trying to convince by personal attacks that the east is better then the west. You can "handle" more by being an east coaster. I can try to play hockey with speed skates on. It will tough and hard to handle. I wouldn't call that enjoyable LOL If you like ice/fake snow crap, the east is best.

Oh this is coming from a southern new englander.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Oh and just for good measure. Check this http://www.erh.noaa.gov/btv/mountain/
and follow the radar and jay peak. 375 inches average my ass. Just look at the damn radar and you can see when it's snowing where. Radar will pick up small scale microclimate precip. It can pick up a tiny little thunderstorm.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 9, 2014)

Dude, what is your vendetta posting upcoming weather reports comparing New England and Utah right now?

Enough people on suicide watch right now without being directly provoked...


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

bdfreetuna said:


> Dude, what is your vendetta posting upcoming weather reports comparing New England and Utah right now?
> 
> Enough people on suicide watch right now without being directly provoked...



Because I want some damn snow and I'm frustrated. lol


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *Dover, vt forecast*, Now vt hasn't had any snow in about a week if I'm not mistaken?
> Tonight Increasing clouds, with a low around 13. Light and variable wind.
> Friday A chance of snow, mainly between 9am and 4pm. Cloudy, with a high near 30. South wind 5 to 7 mph. Chance of precipitation is 50%. New snow accumulation of less than one inch possible.
> Friday Night A slight chance of snow, freezing rain, and sleet before 1am, then a chance of freezing rain. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 28. South wind around 5 mph becoming calm. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New snow and sleet accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
> ...



Now that is some good trolling


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2014)

I lived in the Burlington/Stowe area for the better part of 10 years.  375 is a pretty accurate number at the summit of Jay.  If they're stretching the truth, it ain't by much.  They definitely average 300+ as does Stowe.


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I lived in the Burlington/Stowe area for the better part of 10 years.  375 is a pretty accurate number at the summit of Jay.  If they're stretching the truth, it ain't by much.  They definitely average 300+ as does Stowe.



Yup, the main difference between the 300+ here and 300+ in Alta is that out west they don't have the melt and freeze cycles we get here.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I lived in the Burlington/Stowe area for the better part of 10 years.  375 is a pretty accurate number at the summit of Jay.  If they're stretching the truth, it ain't by much.  They definitely average 300+ as does Stowe.



LOL!!! Sure they do....150 inches more per year than tug hill! Good luck with that! 

 Hmmm mount mansfield..... http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416
220 inch average at 4400 feet. Show me a single nws station reporting over 200 inches in the state of vermont? Forget nearly 400, which is western type snowfall average. You can see when snow is falling at jay peak by looking at a radar. They've really mastered the art of bullshit with that jay cloud orographic lift microclimate b.s. But hey if you east coasters want to believe jay peak gets nearly 400 inches.....all the best with that and I hope the tooth fairy leaves you lots of money!


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> Yup, the main difference between the 300+ here and 300+ in Alta is that out west they don't have the melt and freeze cycles we get here.


More complete nonsense. Jay peak is a very cold place and 
Look at the average temps at wolf creek and compare them to mount mansfield.  Also, IMPORTANT. LOOK AT SNOW DEPTH
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co9181
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416
Average snow depth at wolf creek pass is LESS than at mount mansfield because mount mansfield is so damn cold it holds onto MORE of it's snow than wolf creek. There are more thaws at the pass level at wolf creek than at the summit of mansfield. It's temperature profile at 4400 feet is comparable to quebec city.
How can you be arguing something so ridiculous? Just because a resort tells you that?
Wolf creek has an average of 435 inches so if you believe jay peak gets 375....all the best


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## St. Bear (Jan 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I lived in the Burlington/Stowe area for the better part of 10 years. 375 is a pretty accurate number at the summit of Jay. If they're stretching the truth, it ain't by much. They definitely average 300+ as does Stowe.



I'd be interested to know how Stowe gets 300+", but the Mansfield snow stake only gets 227".
http://bestsnow.net/


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## soposkier (Jan 9, 2014)

All this time I thought Dover Vermont was in the same weather system as Utah!  This might be my favorite thread....

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

soposkier said:


> All this time I thought Dover Vermont was in the same weather system as Utah!  This might be my favorite thread....
> 
> Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk



LoL....Some people do! The same people that believe jay peak gets nearly 400 inches a year!


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## soposkier (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> LoL....Some people do! The same people that believe jay peak gets nearly 400 inches a year!



Well regardless of how much snow they get or do not get, I doubt these people think they are in the same weather system.  (See the freeze thaw comments.)  While I have no first hand knowledge on how much snow Jay actually gets, they do truly get more than any one in the east.  And for the record, all things being equal snow level wise, Id take Sugarloaf as my eastern mountain.


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## wa-loaf (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> More complete nonsense. Jay peak is a very cold place and
> Look at the average temps at wolf creek and compare them to mount mansfield.  Also, IMPORTANT. LOOK AT SNOW DEPTH
> http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co9181
> http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416
> ...



Average temps don't mean anything. How much rain do Western resorts get in January? Everyone is going to get wet this weekend, even Stowe and Jay.

Have fun arguing with everyone. I'm off to ski some icy man made really fast.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> LOL!!! Sure they do....150 inches more per year than tug hill! Good luck with that!
> 
> Hmmm mount mansfield..... http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416
> 220 inch average at 4400 feet. Show me a single nws station reporting over 200 inches in the state of vermont? Forget nearly 400, which is western type snowfall average. You can see when snow is falling at jay peak by looking at a radar. They've really mastered the art of bullshit with that jay cloud orographic lift microclimate b.s. But hey if you east coasters want to believe jay peak gets nearly 400 inches.....all the best with that and I hope the tooth fairy leaves you lots of money!



I lived there for many years and know what they get.  I was there for 2000-2001 when Stowe got 400+; skied there 100 days that season.  Don't believe me?  Fine.  I honestly don't care.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I lived there for many years and know what they get.  I was there for 2000-2001 when Stowe got 400+; skied there 100 days that season.  Don't believe me?  Fine.  I honestly don't care.



I totally believe you that you skied 100 days! If it snowed 220 inches, you could easily do that.

Did you measure the snow properly every event 24 hours a day as a weather station does?


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> Average temps don't mean anything. How much rain do Western resorts get in January? Everyone is going to get wet this weekend, even Stowe and Jay.
> 
> Have fun arguing with everyone. I'm off to ski some icy man made really fast.



Again.....Look at the snow depths....that tells the story of rain/temperature thaw! Mansfield has less melt than wolf creek. Jay wouldn't be as reliant as it on snowguns if it got that type of snow.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I totally believe you that you skied 100 days! If it snowed 220 inches, you could easily do that.
> 
> Did you measure the snow properly every event 24 hours a day as a weather station does?



I think you missed my last two sentences.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Again.....Look at the snow depths....that tells the story of rain/temperature thaw! Mansfield has less melt than wolf creek. Jay wouldn't be as reliant as it on snowguns if it got that type of snow.


So this fly to SLc on weekends and don't ski the east. North Vermont no joke gets good snow fall. Rain and warm ups will destroy our stuff then we do it again. I never heard anyone on this fourm say the east is better then the West. But when we get out snow which we do it fun times. I kind of poor so I don't ski after warm weather and rai? to often so I get that. But if I I has a season pass I ski more often and go home when stuff gets icey.


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## Tin (Jan 9, 2014)

Buy the man a helmet so the cognitive decline and threads stop.


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 9, 2014)

Stowe is basically on the leeward side of Mansfield.  It's not all that improbable that they may record more snowfall than they do at the (windy) summit.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Scotty said:


> North Vermont no joke gets good snow fall. .


Absolutely. For the east they got a lot of snow! Lots of pow days to be had with around a 200 inch average. 375 inches is an incredible amount of snow and they sure as hell don't get that. It's marketing.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Stowe is basically on the leeward side of Mansfield.  It's not all that improbable that they may record more snowfall than they do at the (windy) summit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And this is based on what data? Show me some climate sites backing that up?


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Tin said:


> Buy the man a helmet so the cognitive decline and threads stop.



*The fact that you would make fun of someone who has experienced head injuries over a silly snowfall in vt thread says a lot about your character as human being.* You're a scumbag. Do you make fun of people in wheelchairs too? That seems like the thing a piece of shit like you would do.


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## snoseek (Jan 9, 2014)

Don't even look at conditions out west. Just go, enjoy it, embrace it. It's what you got to work with, work it. You will be a better skier for it.


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> And this is based on what data? Show me some climate sites backing that up?



For real?  I thought you might be intelligent enough to know what the windward and leeward side of mountains and ridges were.  Take some initiative and look it up yourself.    I'm not doing it for you.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *The fact that you would make fun of someone who has experienced head injuries over a silly snowfall in vt thread says a lot about your character as human being.* You're a scumbag. Do you make fun of people in wheelchairs too? That seems like the thing a piece of shit like you would do.



That explains a lot


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> For real?  I thought you might be intelligent enough to know what the windward and leeward side of mountains and ridges were.  Take some initiative and look it up yourself.    I'm not doing it for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm totally familiar with orographic lift. What you describe would never account for that type of difference. Mansfield is a summit. The highest point in the entire green range. It's not on the leeward(dry) side. It's on TOP of EVERYTHING. It's precip is the maximum.


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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

If Snowlover manages to win an AZ giveaway, I am going to be seriously disappointed. :-(  

We need a little of the old AZ back around here.
 Let the ban hammer Ring!!! 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Also, here's a precip map of vt. It's very detailed and used for many purposes by the government. As you can clearly see, jay peak is not even on the highest area's. The long ridge with mansfield on the spine of the highest elevation of the greens is where you find maximum precipitation. Also, notice the steep drop offs due to downsloping winds in the champlain valley. Ridge lines with multiple peak, not single peaks are the key to forcing air upward.View attachment 10258


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That explains a lot



And another dirt bag. Kind of funny watching the guy with previous head injuries tear you apart with facts while you losers just try to gang up. Bunch of morons on the internet.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Now, after I posted that precip map, someone please explain to me how jay peak is averaging 375 while mansfield at a much higher elevation with higher precip amounts is averaging 220? hmmmmm A bunch of morons that can't handle when their wrong so they attack. I'm awaiting your data proving your point? Lets see anyone other than the ski area's present a 30 year climate normal for vt backing up those kind of numbers? Anything of substance other than attacks. I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of monkey's throwing shit around especially a few special douche bags that I've now ignored, but yet they keep replying. LOL


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## ScottySkis (Jan 9, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> If Snowlover manages to win an AZ giveaway, I am going to be seriously disappointed. :-(
> 
> We need a little of the old AZ back around here.
> Let the ban hammer Ring!!!
> ...


+100 I was thinking the same thing before.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Now, after I posted that precip map, someone please explain to me how jay peak is averaging 375 while mansfield at a much higher elevation with higher precip amounts is averaging 220? hmmmmm A bunch of morons that can't handle when their wrong so they attack. I'm awaiting your data proving your point? Lets see anyone other than the ski area's present a 30 year climate normal for vt backing up those kind of numbers?



Did you eat paint chips as a kid?


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 9, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I'm totally familiar with orographic lift.
> 
> View attachment 10257



Wow.  Where did that come from?  Did I say anything about orographic lift?  Look at the windward side of a ridge.  It can get scoured clean.  Where do you think that snow ends up?

I'm no Mansfield expert, but I think it is a reasonable possibility that snow has difficulty accumulating on the windy summit.  It can get blown to the leeward side - Stowe.  

Do I suspect that Stowe (and every other ski resort in the world for that matter) exaggerates their snowfall?  Yes.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

madmadworld said:


> did you eat paint chips as a kid?


lol...you got nothing pal.


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## Snowlover (Jan 9, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Wow.  Where did that come from?  Did I say anything about orographic lift?  Look at the windward side of a ridge.  It can get scoured clean.  Where do you think that snow ends up?
> 
> I'm no Mansfield expert, but I think it is a reasonable possibility that snow has difficulty accumulating on the windy summit.  It can get blown to the leeward side - Stowe.
> 
> ...



Actually the western area's match up with their nws climate sites, unlike vermont. Mt mansfield knows how to measure snow. Their one of the most reliable climate sites in the U.S. The Official Snow Stake is located high atop Mount Mansfield, Vermont's highest mountain (elevation 4393', or 1339m). Actually, the stake isn't quite at the summit: it's located a bit lower, around 3900', just off the Toll Road which leads to the summit ridge. This is not amateur hour. They know how to measure in wind and the measuring area has all tree's surrounding it. It's not an exposed cliff above the treeline where you will have problems measuring. Read a little about mansfield.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2014)

okay

Think we've had enough fun in this thread.


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