# Is powder/tree skiing in the east overrated?



## Griswold (Dec 13, 2017)

All this talk about driving 5+ hours just to get a few "untouched" runs with mountains opening new terrain after the storm has me wondering, is powder really that great?  I'll also include tree skiing in because people mostly ski trees to ski powder (or fresher snow).  Don't get me wrong, I like skiing in powder. But would I wait hours in the cold for first chair while spewing the annoying phrase "there's no friends on a powder day", hell no.  Most people I see skiing powder suck at it anyway, so it's hard to imagine they aren't just kidding themselves saying they love it.  These same people, I bet, all have what they believe is their own secret powder stash in the trees on "their" own mountain.  Nothing like someone who can't ski powder well on an open trail bushwhacking just to get 3 consecutive turns together in trees that are way too tight in their 110 underfoot water skis. But hey, it's "their" stash and they will protect those 3 turns and harass anyone who thinks to post its location or suggest narrower skis on the Internet!  I'll take soft moguls on a sunny day in the spring any day over a powder day.  Anyone else agree???  


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## raisingarizona (Dec 14, 2017)

If you are asking this then you are one of those people flailing in the powder.


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## Griswold (Dec 14, 2017)

Haha, not quite but it doesn't matter how I do in power.  How many people waiting in a lift corral on a powder day for the lift to open can actually ski powder well?  I would argue less than half.  So the question is how many of these people are sucked into the powder hype when they would actually enjoy a groomed trail more?  The same goes for the off map tight trees.  How many people who guard these so secretly can actually ski their own stashes well?  Again, I think a small percentage.  


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## laxski (Dec 14, 2017)

No


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## NYDB (Dec 14, 2017)

I would say its underrated.


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## NYDB (Dec 14, 2017)

but I won't disagree about 50% of people that can't ski it.  The worst is when I see people who can't snowboard in it.  What is the point of living after a display like that.  Immediate seppuku should be required.   (to be fair, usually its because they are on 150 park rat boards with their stance super wide, but i digress)


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2017)

Well, I still applaud those that know they suck in powder but continue to try it rather than take refuge on a groomer. Its the only way to get better at it. I'm good in it for sure but no way compare to my friends out west that can rip it at full speed. Even a few inches can transform the place from rock hard to at least something fun to slide around on. And true Eastern tree skiers are the best in the world. They have to be. Its so damn tight in there that mistakes can be fatal. Theres nothing like bottomless powder, and we don't get that condition much around here. Try heli skiing for that. You can't even step out of your skis..you'll sink up to you nose.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2017)

The OPs opinion couldn't be more off base.  As a skier who lives in PA and spends 80-90% of his skiing days in PA, I'm not terribly awesome at skiing in Powder or trees.  Better in Powder on a cut trails than trees, of course, but I am not expert at either.  I think skiing powder and trees is pretty great on the east coast.  Lots of great tree runs and plenty of great "powder" days.  Yes its about fresh snow in the trees, but since I don't ski them all that often, I enjoy being in the trees anytime there are is deep enough cover to make it enjoyable.  Who friggin cares if I can't ski the trees fluidly.  I am having a good time, and could really care less what anyone else thinks.


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## tumbler (Dec 14, 2017)

Isn't it about having fun? I don't care what the douche bag on the lift wearing his backpack with avy shovel and probe thinks about me and how I look skiing.  GFY.


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## bigbog (Dec 14, 2017)

....Need to take off your virtual headset, leave your cellphone someplace and start spending more time enjoying the natural outdoors...not just bumpfields!
tumbler's....backpack with avy shovel and probe:lol::lol:


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## drjeff (Dec 14, 2017)

The reality is that *most* of the people who show up to ski in a storm in the East, would likely find the experience much more enjoyable if they waited 24 hours until a bunch of the snow was groomed out giving them a soft packed surface.  Most average skiers and riders struggle in powder due to the combo of poor technique and equipment not well suited for the powder.  

Add in the tightness of most New England trees, and for most people, they may talk about having skied/ridden such and such a run during/after a storm as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but in reality they struggled, and knew they struggled and just didn't want to admit it because video clips they've seen of someone, with the skills and equipment to handle it very well, ripping New England trees in powder, looked like so much fun....


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## rocojerry (Dec 14, 2017)

There is nothing good in the woods, the trails are much more fun!


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## tnt1234 (Dec 14, 2017)

No, it's not overrated.

Who gives a damn how anyone skis whatever the conditions?  I'm not out there to impress you, and I hope to hell you aren't trying to impress me, because I promise I'm not watching or caring.

I'm out there to enjoy the mountain and the snow.  

If you like first chair, go for it.  If it's worth it to you to get up early, then that;s the answer - it's worth it to you.  If you enjoy skiing in powder, regardless of your ability, I'l' give you a high five in the line, because I enjoy it too.  You like the trees?  Me too - see you there.  Your ability to string together turns has no impact whatsoever on my enjoyment, and I hope the reverse is true for you. 

One of my favorite things about tree skiing is being away from people who worry about who can ski what, how, and why.....Just get out there in the quiet and ski....love it.

Heartbroken not to be in VT this weekend.  God damn it.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 14, 2017)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that *most* of the people who show up to ski in a storm in the East, would likely find the experience much more enjoyable if they waited 24 hours until a bunch of the snow was groomed out giving them a soft packed surface.  Most average skiers and riders struggle in powder due to the combo of poor technique and equipment not well suited for the powder.
> 
> Add in the tightness of most New England trees, and for most people, they may talk about having skied/ridden such and such a run during/after a storm as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but in reality they struggled, and knew they struggled and just didn't want to admit it because video clips they've seen of someone, with the skills and equipment to handle it very well, ripping New England trees in powder, looked like so much fun....



Just because you struggled, doesn't mean you didn't have the time of your life.

But yes, skiing trees in deep, untracked snow is very, very difficult.


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## abc (Dec 14, 2017)

I’m not sure what the OP mean by “50% struggle” in powder. 

Let’s be real, 80% of skier struggle a bit on the groomer! That doesn’t stop them from having fun!

You don’t have to ski it “well” to enjoy it. As long as they’re not falling down ever 5 feet, most people are enjoying the snow. 

Powder is actually easier than groomer. You can get away with all sort of poor technique. That’s why you see so many peoples skiing it “poorly” yet grinning ear to ear! They’re having a hell of a good time they never had on groomers. 

People “struggle” in powder partly because they don’t get enough chance to ski it. The only way to get used to it is ski it more often, every chance one gets!


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## 56fish (Dec 14, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> No, it's not overrated.
> 
> Who gives a damn how anyone skis whatever the conditions?  I'm not out there to impress you, and I hope to hell you aren't trying to impress me, because I promise I'm not watching or caring.
> 
> ...



"Don’t be dumb like me......knee+ deep snow, on a decent pitch at 3000’ is surfy........knee- deep snow, on not-so-decent pitch at 2000’ is post-holy.
Think of that on the way up" 




"....

I posted above on FB after experiencing the best and worst that snowboarding & mountains offer.  Didn't get hurt.  Wouldn't change a thing. Will do again. :beer:


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## skiur (Dec 14, 2017)

Powder skiing sucks!!! Everybody should stay home on powder days and wait until it gets groomed out the next day.  I will make the sacrifice of tracking it up so that it is safe for everyone else to ski it.  If you see me at the bar at the end of the day buy me a beer for doing everybody the service of making the powder safe and skiable for people like the OP.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2017)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that *most* of the people who show up to ski in a storm in the East, would likely find the experience much more enjoyable if they waited 24 hours until a bunch of the snow was groomed out giving them a soft packed surface.  Most average skiers and riders struggle in powder due to the combo of poor technique and equipment not well suited for the powder.
> 
> Add in the tightness of most New England trees, and for most people, they may talk about having skied/ridden such and such a run during/after a storm as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but in reality they struggled, and knew they struggled and just didn't want to admit it because video clips they've seen of someone, with the skills and equipment to handle it very well, ripping New England trees in powder, looked like so much fun....



This might be applicable to what you experience with *most* people at Mount Snow.  I hit a few mid week powder days at Mt Ellen last season including Storm Stella and can tell you that the people lined up for the 8 AM first chair don't need or want to wait for 24 hours and a grooming to ski a "soft packed surface".


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## urungus (Dec 14, 2017)

kingslug said:


> Well, I still applaud those that know they suck in powder but continue to try it rather than take refuge on a groomer. Its the only way to get better at it.



+1


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## Glenn (Dec 14, 2017)

I depends to a certain degree. Is it worth a multi hour drive go get in maybe 6-8" of powder runs on a weekend vs. 12"+ of powder on a Tuesday? 

Powder is fun because it happens so infrequently in the east vs the west. I remember being at Alta years ago. We were having breakfast at the Gold Miner's Daughter and were going crazy because it was snowing: "There's like 8-10" of snow out there! Holy crap!" Our waiter just kinda shrugged: "Pretty typical...we don't get excited until it's 18" or more."


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2017)

The absolute craziest powder in my history, and the history of Hunter and most of the East was the 100 year storm that dropped 7 feet in 3 days. I had 174 x 84 Volkyls ..and got my ass kicked. Couldn't see a thing, had to take the goggles off. Never seen so much heavy snow fall that fast. And talk about yardsales. They were falling head over heels everywhere. It took everything I had to stay up and make it down. 90% of everyone out there were just eating it..most gave up. Next day same thing, waist deep, no grooming at all as they couldn't. People jumping over the cliffs , fences, unreal. Finally went home and got my new 98 twin tips and had a much better time. Love powder, but this was insane. Kind of like the first time I ever went to Utah. 48 inches in 48 hours. Spent days yardsailing on my skinny skis. 
It takes a good amount of practice to get it right ..but once you do....


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2017)

this thread reeks of lame gaper.


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## Cornhead (Dec 14, 2017)

Powder is my drug of choice, planning on a fix tomorrow, I'll try not to flounder. I'd rather ski a foot of powder on a 500ft hill than icy groomers on a 2,000ft mountain, to each his own.

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## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> This might be applicable to what you experience with *most* people at Mount Snow.  I hit a few mid week powder days at Mt Ellen last season including Storm Stella and can tell you that the people lined up for the 8 AM first chair don't need or want to wait for 24 hours and a grooming to ski a "soft packed surface".


+1

A lot of it depends on the mountain and it's clientele.  Wildcat draws very few skiers who can't ski powder or ungroomed terrain well.  They only groom about half their terrain anyways, so it's really not the place to be if you prefer groomers. Those folks should be down the street at Attitash and they primarily are.

Same goes for trees. I rarely see folks in the trees at Wildcat who can't ski them well.  If they try, it's typically one run and they get punished for it by eating bark. 

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## BenedictGomez (Dec 14, 2017)

kingslug said:


> Well,* I still applaud those that know they suck in powder but continue to try it rather than take refuge on a groomer. Its the only way to get better at it. *



Yeah, the OP's opinion is bizarre, and assumes that you cant have fun unless you're invited to ski in a Warren Miller film.



tumbler said:


> *Isn't it about having fun? I don't care what the douche bag on the lift wearing his backpack with avy shovel and probe thinks about me and how I look skiing.*  GFY.



Essentially, this.



drjeff said:


> The reality is that **most* of the people who show up to ski in a storm in the East, would likely find the experience much more enjoyable if they waited 24 hours until a bunch of the snow was groomed out* giving them a soft packed surface.



Wait, what now?


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## Bosco DaSkia (Dec 14, 2017)

Cornhead said:


> Powder is my drug of choice, planning on a fix tomorrow, I'll try not to flounder. I'd rather ski a foot of powder on a 500ft hill than icy groomers on a 2,000ft mountain, to each his own. [/URL]




 Yeah? So, where're you guys heading , The Ridge?


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## Domeskier (Dec 14, 2017)

I like the cut of your jib, Griswold.


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## jimk (Dec 14, 2017)

Interesting topic and I am not totally unsympathetic with the OPs hypothesis.  I just made a post on another site about the snowiest skiing I ever experienced, 81" in one week in Jan '17 in Utah:  http://www.dcski.com/forum/91448
And I am kind of blunt in that piece about how demanding it was for me.  What I didn't say in that piece was that if you asked me what was my funnest powder day in recent years it would be a weekday in late Feb of '17 at Beaver Creek in about one foot of new snow with hardly anyone on the mtn around me and an empty chondola to use as my private lift during the day.

I think the fun of powder can be taken in small or large dose depending on the skier's skill.  If you are an intermediate or better you can probably really enjoy about 6-8" of it.  At that depth you can really enjoy the effortlessness of skiing and turning on a run with Blue Square pitch.  If you are advanced you will probably have fun in 12" assuming it's reasonably light.  That's about my sweet spot.  But I see many experts in Utah who are used to deep snow and go hard at it all day in 18+" in very steep terrain having a blast, while I tend to struggle at those kind of depths.  It's sort of a sliding scale, but I think just about all decent skiers/boarders can learn to have fun in 6-8" and that is a depth that Eastern weekend warriors have a good chance of experiencing a few times a season


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## Bosco DaSkia (Dec 14, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> this thread reeks of lame gaper.




Dude, PM Rontele.... He can help you find a totally nongaper board to bro down on. 













Then again, you missed a top notch eastern dump to fly west..... Whats the gaper level on that move?


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## Griswold (Dec 14, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> this thread reeks of lame gaper.



Haha, sorry you think that way.  I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.  

Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about.  They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it.  I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper?  Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?


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## mister moose (Dec 14, 2017)

Griswold said:


> How many people waiting in a lift corral on a powder day for the lift to open can actually ski powder well?  I would argue less than half.  So the question is how many of these people are sucked into the powder hype when they would actually enjoy a groomed trail more?



You either live it, breathe it, or you don't.  If you don't want to make the drive, wait in the line, brave the cold, then you don't ski powder.  If it's not worth it to you then fine.  Some people run marathons, some watch The Voice, some climb in the Gunks.  We all don't come from the same mold.  Which is a good thing.

As to how many in the line ski powder well, I know many love the easy blue runs that got groomed at 2 am and now have just 3-4 inches on it and they love that.  That's what they are in line for.  Me, I'm in line for what has never seen a groomer.




drjeff said:


> Most average skiers and riders struggle in powder due to the combo of poor technique and equipment not well suited for the powder.



Poor technique - yes.  Wrong equipment, not likely.  Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow.  That's not really powder.  Powder is uniformly soft and deep.  You can ski it with 70mm just fine.




jimk said:


> I think the fun of powder can be taken in small or large dose depending on the skier's skill.  If you are an intermediate or better you can probably really enjoy about 6-8" of it.  At that depth you can really enjoy the effortlessness of skiing and turning on a run with Blue Square pitch.  If you are advanced you will probably have fun in 12" assuming it's reasonably light.  That's about my sweet spot.  But I see many experts in Utah who are used to deep snow and go hard at it all day in 18+" in very steep terrain having a blast, while I tend to struggle at those kind of depths.  It's sort of a sliding scale, but I think just about all decent skiers/boarders can learn to have fun in 6-8" and that is a depth that Eastern weekend warriors have a good chance of experiencing a few times a season



Yeah, sorta.  The reason intermediates do ok in 6 inches or less is they still are mostly on the base.  If they get a little too far forward or back the base is there to bail them out.  If they get too skiddy and get their skis more than 40 degrees across the fall line for anything more than a quick check turn, more than likely they will trip on the snow and fall over.

If you are good with 12 inches but flounder in 18 you still aren't doing it right.  You have to make the transition from skiing_ *on a*_* surface *to skiing *immersed in a fluid*.  Until you get that, and get the pressure management fore & aft and ski to ski, and get that an immersed ski is _always tracking _and must be steered with precision, you will flounder.

The reason fat skis are easier is they retain some characteristics of skiing on a surface due to the massive flotation.  If you want to get good at powder, go beyond the training wheels of fat, and learn to fly something narrower.

Its not easy.  And what makes it really hard is that for most it is hard to find and then it is gone in an hour.  I can't fix that for you other than give you the name of a Cat Skiing operator.  But for those that chased the cold smoke over the years, or lived out west, or worked at a mountain, or wore the white cross, or had a chronic white flu, I can tell you it is gobs of fun. As it only comes around a few times a season, yes we wait in line, yes we brave the cold, yes we have a dozen weather pages in our favorites folder, and yes we meticulously pack our ski bag the night before.



This is the classroom on Tuesday.   If you're not here, in the moment, you're not going to learn.


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## fbrissette (Dec 14, 2017)

Griswold said:


> All this talk about driving 5+ hours just to get a few "untouched" runs with mountains opening new terrain after the storm has me wondering, is powder really that great?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Skiing virgin powder is better than sex.  There, I said it.   And for eastern skiers, sex is a lot easier to get than virgin powder.

Do note that I'm not talking about half tracked snow that we get for an hour or so after each snowfall in a resort, but real virgin powder where you pick your line with nobody in sight.

Since I can't afford heliskiing, that's why I keep in shape and skin-up at dawn after every big storm to get my fix.  That's why I try to fly out west every year for some powder ski touring.  

And to answer other posts:

- skiing virgin powder in trees is easy.  It gets a bit trickier as it gets tracked.  Most skiers simply don't get enough chance to acquire the skill.  
- you can ski powder quite well on thin skis.   It's definitely easier on fat skis however.  But fat skis won't magically transform somebody's ability to ski powder.  If you suck with thin skis, you'll suck with fat skis.


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## Jully (Dec 14, 2017)

Griswold said:


> Haha, sorry you think that way.  I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.
> 
> Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about.  They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it.  I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper?  Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?
> 
> ...



I think it is all in the eye of the beholder. There are certainly people who do those actions just for the talk and social media proof, but I think they are pretty few and far between given how much work needs to be put it to make it happen. It would take a special kind of crazy to do the kind of driving some of the NJ and NYC residents on this board do for powder and tree skiing if they didn't actually *love*it and strictly did it for bragging rights on AZ.

As for how well people ski trees and powder, I think you're correct in saying that many do not ski it 'well' but there is a big separation between how well you do something and how much you enjoy it. Skiing powder is _different_, so it makes perfect sense to me that most people are going to enjoy it. Skiing groomers, especially if you're an intermediate I could see getting pretty boring, but because powder is different and can be challenging, it stands to reason that the masses will enjoy it, even if they are not good at it.

The amount of effort that skiers and boarders on this forum put into skiing powder though, I think is truly out of enjoyment for it and nothing else. For the average run of the mill skier, they will enjoy it, but not as much as the people on this board (that is why we post here - we're not run of the mill) and they will not put in the same effort to ski it as those posting here.


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## fbrissette (Dec 14, 2017)

mister moose said:


> Poor technique - yes.  Wrong equipment, not likely.  Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow.  That's not really powder.  Powder is uniformly soft and deep.  You can ski it with 70mm just fine.



Spot on.


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## Griswold (Dec 14, 2017)

I definitely agree with you Jully, but am kinda wondering how few and far between those people are.  I was that way for a few years, telling myself how much I love powder and trees, and I really thought I did.  I think last year I started to realize that's if it wasn't for the general hype in skiing the east now around it and finding secret stashes, I actually would have preferred other methods of skiing.  I also caught a bad snow snake in rumble woods last January and really sprained my ankle badly.  Every day after until my last day in May I felt it when making a right turn.  Really has gotten me thinking about why I was in there in the first place risking hitting something just below the surface when most of the the time on those off map areas the consecutive turns are hards to make with it being so tight, even for what I'm sure are better skiers than me.  


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## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2017)

You could have sprained your ankle any number of ways.  It's an inherent risk of the sport.  Some aspects of skiing have greater risk and for many those risks have great appeal to overcome.  

The appeal of the trees for me isn't just snow quality, it's the puzzle of looking several turns ahead, planning in my head how I get there and executing the turns to get me there.  Sometimes a snow snake grabs you along the way. Hopefully when that happens you are balanced enough to react and have a bail out plan.

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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2017)

Griswold said:


> Haha, sorry you think that way.  I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.
> 
> Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about.  They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it.  I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper?  Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?
> 
> ...



I can assure you that I am not skiing on fat indie skis (and 106 is not fat) and chasing powder and skiing trees to impress you or anyone else. yea I like to post on instagram, but that's really just where I keep photos for myself without taking up local storage, and I think its fun to document my season. I do it for me. I'm certainly not doing 8-12 hours in the car every single weekend to impress anyone but myself. 

and I don't think I ever bragged about skiing trees that are too tight to ski. I have repeatedly told people to stop crying about the length of their skis with respect to tree skiing, because I ski glades on 186 cm skis with absolutely no problem, and view the ski length argument to be a cop-out with people blaming their equipment for their own lack of skill

i'll be at loaf or whiteface/gore 12/26-28 depending on how the snow falls and whether they can get bracket basin open. won't be solo, but I'm always happy to take some laps. I'm not a contentious prick in real life, I promise.


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## Jully (Dec 14, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> The appeal of the trees for me isn't just snow quality, it's the puzzle of looking several turns ahead, planning in my head how I get there and executing the turns to get me there.  Sometimes a snow snake grabs you along the way. Hopefully when that happens you are balanced enough to react and have a bail out plan.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I only recently (a few years ago) got into tree skiing. I raced semi-seriously in college and was scared of injuring myself skiing trees and wasn't particularly good at them. Once out of college I wanted to challenge myself more and diversify what I skied. Trees, with that perspective, are the ultimate challenge. Variable conditions, different routes, hazards. It is a lot of fun. I'm not into super tight trees where you have to bushwhack your way through crap (though I don't know what people's exact definition of _super_ tight is) but I don't want them to be so open that I don't have to think. I want the challenge and I think that is what attracts a good number of people to the trees.

Its kind of like basic science research. Your experiments fail 90% of the time, but you love it for the challenge and reward of really understanding something when it does work out. I think a successful tree skiing run has a higher success rate than 10% too. :razz:


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## drjeff (Dec 14, 2017)

mister moose said:


> Poor technique - yes.  Wrong equipment, not likely.  Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow.  That's not really powder.  Powder is uniformly soft and deep.  You can ski it with 70mm just fine.



Technique by far is the most important factor. No doubt about it. I do think though that modern equipment does play a decent roll as well. Heck, I can still vividly remember some deep (18" plus) powder days back in the late 80's where I was on my full cambered, stiff, 213 Rossi 3G race GS skis that were at best 70mm under foot just having a blast. I also known that nowadays, It's even more fun on my 187, full rockered, much softer, 108mm underfoot Blizzard Cochises that are my powder skis.  They just make having fun, and more long lasting fun because of the less effort they take to get floating easier.

It's kind of like my golf clubs. I'm a 7 handicap. I can hit the ball solidly and a variety of ball flight shapes that I want to. I still have, in my basement,  my mid 80's forged blade irons and 1st generation Taylormade metal woods (the woods are about the same size as my hybrid rescue club in my bag these days), and I break the old stuff out once or twice a year on the range. I can still hit them solid. It's much easier and enjoyable with my modern cavity backs and 460cc head titanium driver. The technique is the key thing.  The technology is a bonus for those who have the technique and for those who don't the technology *can* be the difference between a tough day on the slopes or the golf course and a more enjoyable day.

And BTW, I was drooling when I saw your pics from Tuesday up on Kzone!!  I'm sure even a PBR would of made the Moose palate happy after a December powder day like that! ;-) :beer:


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## Highway Star (Dec 14, 2017)

I ski more powder in the east than the vast majority of people ski in the west.  I must be so painful to suck at finding powder.


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## drjeff (Dec 14, 2017)

Jully said:


> I only recently (a few years ago) got into tree skiing. I raced semi-seriously in college and was scared of injuring myself skiing trees and wasn't particularly good at them. Once out of college I wanted to challenge myself more and diversify what I skied. Trees, with that perspective, are the ultimate challenge. Variable conditions, different routes, hazards. It is a lot of fun. I'm not into super tight trees where you have to bushwhack your way through crap (though I don't know what people's exact definition of _super_ tight is) but I don't want them to be so open that I don't have to think. I want the challenge and I think that is what attracts a good number of people to the trees.
> 
> Its kind of like basic science research. Your experiments fail 90% of the time, but you love it for the challenge and reward of really understanding something when it does work out. I think a successful tree skiing run has a higher success rate than 10% too. :razz:



I had a similar background prior to hanging up my GS suit and just skiing the mountain and spending more time in the trees.  At times in the beginning of my tree skiing development, I almost felt that I had to tell myself that the trees WEREN'T a slalom gate that I wanted to ski over/through!! Being old enough that at the start of my ski racing career, all the gates were bamboo poles and not hinged plastic poles, I did have some vivid memories of how it felt to try and occasionally from being out of position more often than not in my case, run over those old bamboo race gates, and that helped in my tree skiing line selection process for sure!!

I still today, when I get the chance to free ski with my kids when they're not race training and we head into the trees, occasionally see one of them lining up a tree like it is a slalom gate, and at the last second make the course correction and slide around the tree rather than try and ski through it!  It really is a fun thing to see, especially knowing what their racer instinct was thinking before their brains fully processed that what was infront of them was some New England hardwood vs a hinged SPM slalom gate! :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 14, 2017)

I think the OP has a point when it comes to some of the more popular resorts out east.  Let's be honest.  Skiing deep powder at Okemo or Bretton Woods is not going to be as enjoyable as skiing the same powder at a resort with some pitch.  There are proportionally more resorts out east that lack in the pitch department.


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## skiur (Dec 14, 2017)

Yes, you are correct, you are painful and suck.


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 14, 2017)

Powder is one of several excellent and fun snow surfaces. As an Eastern skier you should make it your priority to adapt/learn/and love as many types of conditions as possible.

Also great:
Packed powder leftovers. If you struggle with powder and chowder, go a day or two after the storm.
Sun baked, refreezed, spring corn snow.
Fast n' firm stuff if you're comfortable at speed.

Rocks can be avoided and keep your skis pointed straight over the ice. Sharpen your edges and work your tek.

Get up to Jay Peak and northern VT during an active pattern and your tune will change fast.

Powder skiing in the East is the best skiing there is, if we're talking MRG Stowe Smuggs Jay Sugarloaf or any of the other resorts known for epic tree skiing and steep terrain. Magic also qualifies although not usually quite as blessed by snowfall.


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## Wicked1 (Dec 14, 2017)

Where can I find some of this powder everyone is talking about? 

:wink:


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## Jully (Dec 14, 2017)

drjeff said:


> At times in the beginning of my tree skiing development, I almost felt that I had to tell myself that the trees WEREN'T a slalom gate that I wanted to ski over/through!!



Took me a year+ to figure out that my lines should not be directly at trees and another year to make that a habit! The skiing became a lot more fluid and less defensive after I got the hang of that. It was slow moving with more than a few shoulder and shin bruises during that time, but it was fun all the same. I started to like skiing MORE during those years, and it made the open trails feel even better too.

The other benefit of trees, there are few, if any, people around to judge you!


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## Jully (Dec 14, 2017)

Griswold said:


> I definitely agree with you Jully, but am kinda wondering how few and far between those people are.  I was that way for a few years, telling myself how much I love powder and trees, and I really thought I did.  I think last year I started to realize that's if it wasn't for the general hype in skiing the east now around it and finding secret stashes, I actually would have preferred other methods of skiing.
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I wonder how much of it is just social media bragging too. People get excited for powder because its rare, so the average skier/instagram user posts like crazy and it gets tons of hype. People will post "best day ever" and crap like that, but likely (for the average skier) it wasn't their best day ever and they struggled a bit. Doesn't mean it wasn't fun for them and that they won't hype the crap out of it though because it is part of the culture. I don't think that is a bad thing or needs to change either.

I think if you were to take an average skier who has not been exposed to any of the skiing culture hype and who isn't particularly proficient at powder skiing (or anything not groomed and 50 feet wide) and drop them into the middle of a 12" powder day they will say it is overrated compared to the packed powder they get the day after. 

That said though, powder is a special feeling and once you get a little better at it, you long for that feeling of floating through the snow. That's most people on this board (and definitely the ones who are responding like the notion that powder isn't the best is the antichrist.


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## Hawk (Dec 14, 2017)

I have been skiing trees and Powder for onwards of 30 years now.  I first started at Sunday River in the 80's where most of my ski friends cut and maintained and elaborate series of runs.  Skiing with them at that place was great!  After ASC bought Sugarbush I started to ski there quickly realized that it snows a sh*t load there an the woods are really some of the best in New England.  So because of my thirst for woods and Powder I abandoned all for my friends and people I had been skiing with for over 17 years.  Do I think it is overrated?  NOPE


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the OP has a point when it comes to some of the more popular resorts out east.  Let's be honest.  Skiing deep powder at Okemo or Bretton Woods is not going to be as enjoyable as skiing the same powder at a resort with some pitch.  There are proportionally more resorts out east that lack in the pitch department.



i skied an 18 inch powder day at okemo last season. i would have gone to magic but i was with a big group who got a house at okemo. it was an amazing day. first chair at Jackson gore and ~5-6 runs over there with untracked lines to ski on the trails, before poking into the woods the rest of the day. they definitely are lacking for pitch but i absolutely had an "enjoyable" day there in fresh deep snow.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 14, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> I ski more powder in the east than the vast majority of people ski in the west.



That's a silly hyperbolic statement, even by your standards.


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 14, 2017)

Wicked1 said:


> Where can I find some of this powder everyone is talking about?
> 
> :wink:



Jay Peak consistently delivers above expectations and while they may be slightly exaggerating a 400"+ season total, it can't be by much.

Let's be honest about where we'd be skiing if it weren't in the middle of nowhere...

Half of my trips to Jay involve plowing through mostly untouched + deep snow to the tune of 2000+ vertical feet of it.

The other half are in the spring when they are still 99%+ open when everyone else is closed, and April powder days aren't really a rarity either. I was up there 4/9 last year for the ***best conditions and best day of the season including prime season + pow days @ Tahoe and fresh snow @ Telluride***. The only reason I don't count that as a powder day is because the 2 feet of snow technically fell the day before.

I have decided to focus my financial and energy resources towards more vacations at Jay, Quebec and so forth instead of heading West, based on last season.

We really do have it good out here except for the unpredictability sometimes. When my newborn daughter grows up a bit I'll go back to traveling more, just for her sake.


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## Cornhead (Dec 14, 2017)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Yeah? So, where're you guys heading , The Ridge?


Yep, just stopped at my shop, told the lady there that Snow Ridge was claiming 20" as of a couple days ago, she said she heard they got considerably more, stoked. Hope my back feels better, just pulled 3 10 hr days standing on a concrete floor. We're busy as Hell, but I put in 38 hrs this week with taking tomorrow off. Alot better than not working late and taking off, IMO. Maybe skipping the Christmas party Saturday will bolster my claim of being "sick". Go skiing instead.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## flakeydog (Dec 14, 2017)

usually we get this sort of inane conversation when there is no snow... yet i feel compelled to participate anyway

Couple of things.
1) no, it is not overrated.  Eastern skiing and western skiing both have their own perks (and no, we will not debate them here...)
2) you don't have to be the best at something (or even that good) to enjoy it.  If this is your philosophy in life you are really missing out.
3) let everyone have their fun on powder days- with few exceptions, there is room for everyone.  People have to learn somewhere and yeah, it may be on your favorite trail or line on a powder day.  Get over it, that was you at one time too.
4) finally- the best thing about skiing is that you never stop learning and improving. It does not matter if it is day 40 of your season or year 40 in your skiing career, I always come back after each ski day better than the last one.  There is no ceiling.  If you think you have reached the "top", think again. or maybe review #2 again.

oh yeah, i almost forgot one of my favorite expressions: "shut up and ski!" 

Have a great day, no matter what the conditions are.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2017)

flakeydog said:


> If you think you have reached the "top", think again. or maybe review #2 again.



if you think you have reached the top, think again. or maybe follow some teenagers into the park and try to do what they do.

(spoiler - i followed some teenagers into the park on rime, watched them each effortlessly jump, do a 90 degree rotation, and grind perpendicular to the box. they made it look so damn easy. i followed, ate shit, goggles popped off helmet, and i'm standing there like i am a million years old clutching my ass and hip. i can hit a box straight, hit jumps and throw some grab and daffy shit, but grinding rails and sideways grinding boxes is something i will never be able to do. until i try tomorrow. and bust my fucking ass again.)


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## mbedle (Dec 14, 2017)

flakeydog said:


> usually we get this sort of inane conversation when there is no snow... yet i feel compelled to participate anyway
> 
> Couple of things.
> 1) no, it is not overrated.  Eastern skiing and western skiing both have their own perks (and no, we will not debate them here...)
> ...



Perfect


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## Bumpsis (Dec 14, 2017)

I would say that tree skiing is overrated unless there is still powder to be found there after a good storm. I'll ski trees for as long as they are not overly tracked out. When they are, it's just bumps with trees.
I see people being all excited about skiing trees even if conditions are at best, marginal. Thin cover, all tracked out, yet they out there...Not my cup of tea. 
And then, there is also the issue of the actual tree runs. Some areas are just great, Sugarloaf's Bracket Basin comes to mind.  Others, not so much. For instance, I really don't care much for what Cannon has to offer in terms of tree runs. Most are short and really tight. Although, I do hope to try the Golden Birches Glade at Mittersill, once the woods fill up a bit.


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## snoseek (Dec 15, 2017)

I had some wicked good days skiing tight trees and deep snow at the cat last season. 

I do get tired of the mad rush for untracked. I love nothing more than a sleeper Tuesday where everyone burned up their time off getting the early main part of a storm. Those end of cycle surprise snowfalls that catch you off guard....that is the dream.


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## SkiFanE (Dec 15, 2017)

I still can't get past the "who cares"?  So what if someone waits since 6am for freshies and "sucks" skiing it. If they have fun - all that matters.  I suck at powder. I can confidentially say I could probably beat many here down most bump lines. I'm a lifelong eastern skier with zero west powder experience. My experience is so limited no way I can't suck. Even if there is a pow day and I break out my mid-fats, I'm back on my SL skis and in the bumps after noon in the soft perfect bumps. Is it just me - but cruising down deep pow just looks kinda boring. One of the best pow days I've had was in Casablanca at Saddleback after 18" dump. Nicely covered bumps - perfect pitch and trees...I guess the combo of bumps and pow is what I like. But life often keeps me away from freshies so I'm always happy with leftovers. Like this weekend - the weekday crew never tracks out edge of trails where I spend most of my time anyway. 

So - give eastern skiers a break on their pow skills.  Unless you get trips out west - it's really hard to get good in the east, in my opinion. Even a 36" snow can be dust on crust when it's covering boilerplate and some good wind.


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## mister moose (Dec 15, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> So - give eastern skiers a break on their pow skills.  Unless you get trips out west - it's really hard to get good in the east, in my opinion. Even a 36" snow can be dust on crust when it's covering boilerplate and some good wind.



Yes, it's is harder to get powder time in the East compared to the West.  Out west there is never any rain, the snow is drier, and there are huge expanses of powder filled bowls above timberline.

But.  If you're willing to do the drive, if you're willing to take the time, if you seek out powder on skins under powerlines,  unplowed CCC roads, closed ski areas, you will get the goods in the East.  Pico for instance is tracked out on some trails _even before the lifts open _on Thursdays.  Why?  All the tele folks were skinning up Tuesday and Wednesday.  Too much effort?  I'm sure it is for some people, but I'm going to disagree that you can't learn to ski powder well in the east.  You just need the dedication.

Bumps on the other hand are there almost all the time.  There is almost never a line to ski them.  Early on they get _better_ over time, not worse.  Having done a lot of both, I think bumps are harder to ski well than powder, but you get the chance to practice on bumps far more often.

I've had epic powder days when all you do is ski fresh tracks.  You get so spoiled that when you see a trail with 10 tracks on it you say, "well that's ruined, let's move on to the next one."  Any other day you'd bleed to ski that trail with only 10 tracks.  So yes, after a while you do get your fill.  Your legs are half baked, or worse, so you get picky.  But the next storm you are at it again.

For me, powder skiing is quiet, it is soft,  it is ever yielding, it is the one time you dictate the path free of moguls and ice patches (well, not always) and you are moving in a 3 dimensional fluid, not sliding down a surface.  For those reasons, it can't be boring.  It is almost a different sport, or different in the same way tele is different.


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## Edd (Dec 15, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Is it just me - but cruising down deep pow just looks kinda boring.



I think it’s just you. [emoji23]


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## crank (Dec 15, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Jay Peak consistently delivers above expectations and while they may be slightly exaggerating a 400"+ season total, it can't be by much.
> 
> Let's be honest about where we'd be skiing if it weren't in the middle of nowhere...
> 
> ...



I love Jay Peak and have been skiing thereat least a few days per season since 1985.  It often does over -deliver as mentioned above.  However it is also hit and miss and if you are following a thaw/freeze it sucks as hard as anything.  I also think as it's popularity has grown everything just gets tracked out a lot faster than it used to.

Having said that, I fondly recall white knuckle drives up to Hotel Jay  or the old Snowline Lodge and waking up in the morning to a shitload of fresh.  More than once it was a complete surprise, stars out most of the way up through VT, get close to Jay and it's snowing like #$$%.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 15, 2017)

Bumpsis said:


> I would say that tree skiing is overrated unless there is still powder to be found there after a good storm. I'll ski trees for as long as they are not overly tracked out.* When they are, it's just bumps with trees.*



I love, _"just bumps with trees"._



crank said:


> I also think *as it's popularity has grown everything just gets tracked out a lot faster than it used to.*



Oh, big time.  After it became a destination for the Montreal crowd, it's never been the same in that regard. :sad:


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## SkiFanE (Dec 15, 2017)

mister moose said:


> Yes, it's is harder to get powder time in the East compared to the West.  Out west there is never any rain, the snow is drier, and there are huge expanses of powder filled bowls above timberline.
> 
> But.  If you're willing to do the drive, if you're willing to take the time, if you seek out powder on skins under powerlines,  unplowed CCC roads, closed ski areas, you will get the goods in the East.  Pico for instance is tracked out on some trails _even before the lifts open _on Thursdays.  Why?  All the tele folks were skinning up Tuesday and Wednesday.  Too much effort?  I'm sure it is for some people, but I'm going to disagree that you can't learn to ski powder well in the east.  You just need the dedication.
> 
> ...



You are correct - you can work hard to find that eastern powder - but in my life - I can't go to those lengths. And I suppose I don't crave it (going back to my lack of ability and understanding of the thrill lol).  Since I never go west, I feel it's best that way. I'm happy every weekend in the east and don't need to know what I'm missing. I don't know long fluid runs in pow could ever beat a spring day on Superstar


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## kingslug (Dec 15, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i skied an 18 inch powder day at okemo last season. i would have gone to magic but i was with a big group who got a house at okemo. it was an amazing day. first chair at Jackson gore and ~5-6 runs over there with untracked lines to ski on the trails, before poking into the woods the rest of the day. they definitely are lacking for pitch but i absolutely had an "enjoyable" day there in fresh deep snow.



I take it you where there for that monster storm that shut the roads down. Me too. Since it was pretty empty I bet we passed each other many times. J Gore was a blast, the chair there is rather nice. You can rip that place top to bottom at full speed.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2017)

kingslug said:


> I take it you where there for that monster storm that shut the roads down. Me too. Since it was pretty empty I bet we passed each other many times. J Gore was a blast, the chair there is rather nice. You can rip that place top to bottom at full speed.



yea it was that one late-ish season monster storm. per my ski tracks, it was... April 1. 18" on April 1, lol. sweet.


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## Bandit2941 (Dec 15, 2017)

mister moose said:


> Yes, it's is harder to get powder time in the East compared to the West.  Out west there is never any rain, the snow is drier, and there are huge expanses of powder filled bowls above timberline.
> 
> But.  If you're willing to do the drive, if you're willing to take the time, if you seek out powder on skins under powerlines,  unplowed CCC roads, closed ski areas, you will get the goods in the East.  Pico for instance is tracked out on some trails _even before the lifts open _on Thursdays.  Why?  All the tele folks were skinning up Tuesday and Wednesday.  Too much effort?  I'm sure it is for some people, but I'm going to disagree that you can't learn to ski powder well in the east.  You just need the dedication.
> 
> ...




Quoted for truth. Very well written Mr Moose.

I'll add a line from a ski buddy of mine: "The more you do it, the better you get. And the better you get, the more you want to do it." It's a great cycle!!


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## SkiFanE (Dec 15, 2017)

Bandit2941 said:


> Quoted for truth. Very well written Mr Moose.
> 
> I'll add a line from a ski buddy of mine: "The more you do it, the better you get. And the better you get, the more you want to do it." It's a great cycle!!



That quote refers to sex, duh.


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## fbrissette (Dec 15, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I love, _"just bumps with trees"._
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, big time.  After it became a destination for the Montreal crowd, it's never been the same in that regard. :sad:




???????   The Montreal crowd has always been there.   Jay Peak was owned by a Quebec company for the longest time,as you know.   

The increase in skier-day is the result of all of the non-skiing resort improvements, attracting additional Quebecers for sure, but also a shitload of Boston and New-York people.   Being there every week-end, I can tell you that MLK, President's week and New-England ski breaks far outnumber skiers than during Quebec school break.   This has particularly been the case the past three years with the exchange rate.  

Nowadays, a ski week in BC or Alberta ain't much more expensive than a week at Jay Peak once you factor in everything.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 15, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *???????   The Montreal crowd has always been there.*   Jay Peak was owned by a Quebec company for the longest time,as you know.



Not in anywhere near the numbers that they are now.  It's exploded in that regard in the last 10 or 12 years.


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## Not Sure (Dec 15, 2017)

_"just bumps with trees"._

You'd like The Loaf, Bracket basin on the King pine lift side , sees enough traffic to build up some nice bumps but limits ability to experts .


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## crank (Dec 15, 2017)

Jay's consistent marketing of the Jay cloud over the decades and build up of facilities has attracted more folks from north and south.


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## The Sneak (Dec 15, 2017)

There's little doubt that social media / ski the east / TGR -esque hype promotes a certain culture or identity.

Whatever. 

I for one enjoy the chopped up stuff, the crud, the leftovers, and semi tracked out trees more. Growing up in SNE and day tripping to ski boilerplate for half your life damages you inside, I guess 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 15, 2017)

Totally tracked out / spring snow tree skiing with good base depth is a close 2nd to straight up powder.

Can turn into a real rollercoaster ride depending on the terrain.


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## Hawk (Dec 15, 2017)

Sugarbush has seen an increase of woods skier over the last 10 years also.  But one thing I can say, you can still go out 2 or 3 days after a storm and find fresh tracks.  There is so much area between Lincoln Peak, Mt Ellen and Mad River Glen that the options are basically limitless.  And if you know where you are going and don't mind a good skin you can go off the back or off the sides.  You can basically lose your self and ski in peace away from the crowds.  It is truly special and I am glad that most people have not figured it out.


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## makimono (Dec 15, 2017)

_I love skiing_ trees in all conditions, except if it's icy.
_I love skiing_ powder, especially in a steep wide open cirque.
If there's powder in the trees, then _I love skiing_ that too.
And, _I love skiing_ soft bumps on a sunny spring day.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 15, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Powder skiing in the East is the best skiing there is, if we're talking MRG Stowe Smuggs Jay Sugarloaf or any of the other resorts known for epic tree skiing and steep terrain. Magic also qualifies although not usually quite as blessed by snowfall.



Yeah, I haven't been out west in decades, so maybe not a fair judge...but I agree - my god, what is better than Stowe after 12"?  Jesus, that's fun....Goat with fresh snow?  Hard to think of anything better. 

I remember Jay with my wife and kids after and during a crazy snow cycle....like 16">4>6"....absolutely nuts fun even though it was 0F and blowing every day.  K-ton after so much snow the resort restaurants ran out of food - they didn't factor for people not being able to drive to other places for dinner!  So much fun!  

God, what blast...soft snow, great New England trails, narrow, with roll, and character....glades, tight, wide, who cares!  You're skiing in fucking trees!  

And again, I don't care how you're doing it.  And please don't care how I'm doing it.  Just be glad to be doing it....


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## KD7000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Goofing around in the trees with my daughter last season was a ridiculous amount of fun.  Take a break from the busy trails, listen to the quietness.  I suck at it but absolutely love it.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 15, 2017)

KD7000 said:


> Goofing around in the trees with my daughter last season was a ridiculous amount of fun.  Take a break from the busy trails, listen to the quietness.  I suck at it but absolutely love it.View attachment 22926View attachment 22927



nice!


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## chuckstah (Dec 15, 2017)

Today was fun.  Not a day for your A skis.  But fun. That's what it's all about. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## abc (Dec 16, 2017)

Griswold said:


> How many people waiting in a lift corral on a powder day for the lift to open can actually ski powder well?  I would argue less than half.  So the question is how many of these people are sucked into the powder hype when they would actually enjoy a groomed trail more?  The same goes for the off map tight trees.  How many people who guard these so secretly can actually ski their own stashes well?  Again, I think a small percentage.


The "powder hypes" are entirely worth it!

Those who don't enjoy skiing powder are either 1) on terribly wrong equipment (poorly fit boots, ski too short etc) or 2) don't have the skills to enjoy it. 

Now, the 2nd part can be further split into two types. One, whose skills are simply poor on the groomer to begin with, powder simply makes it shown more. The 2nd type, those who can ski reasonably well (in balance, which is the key ingredient required) but never got much chance to practice in powder. Maybe they had a couple of "chowder" days but never been in 3' fluffy powder, or vice versa. 

For the last group, they should go into powder, however much they suck! They will improve in powder and they will enjoy it more and more. 

The rest of us who had drank the powder Coolaid, we'll keep on drinking it to feed our habit. How we look to onlookers is not our worry. The time others spent pondering whether we "ski it well", we'll take another lap in "our secret stash". 

Powder is intoxicating. I'd rather there're less hype and less people. But if I'm honest, I will tell my true friends how good it really fell. And only to strangers on the internet that it sucks. I'm selfish!


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## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2017)

People sometimes confuse powder with other types of deep snow. Skiing 12" of powder is a lot different than 12" with a wind blown crust on top or 12" of slop (sierra cement). Pure soft blower powder is not that hard to ski in.


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## Lefty4514 (Dec 16, 2017)

This thread is good stuff.  So forbidden to say that powder is anything but amazing.  I like skiing in powder and some of my most memorable days revolve around a powder day.  But I also agree that there are plenty of other ways to get thrills with skiing like some good bumps or just ripping down a freshly groomed trail.  Skiing (or bushwhacking)in trees days after a dump just to get some snow that goes over your boot toes even when you can barely link a turn or two together without stopping to duck branches is pretty dumb IMO but that’s the east coast.  With many threads talking about these stashes I can see where Griswold is coming from.

On the topic of ski width, wide skis are obviously easier in nearly all powder situations.   But I do agree that the fascination of wide skis as daily driver on the east coast confuses me since there don’t seem to be enough deep days to justify it.  I own pair of Kendos and twister mogul skis, and have demoed a bunch of wide rockered skis and can say that the mogul skis are my fave skis in nearly every snow condition with the exception of powder (not just when skiing moguls either). Maybe it’s older school style and its obviously just my opinion but the lightness and playability can’t be matched.  Maybe the light and narrow skis will make a comeback.....


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## Griswold (Dec 16, 2017)

I'm glad at least one or two people (kind of) agree.  I guess I'm just a little bitter because it amazes me how a 6 inch powder day in the east can turn people into such A-holes.  I've had people blatantly cutting me in line, seen arguing and near fights, all for a few runs in a little powder?  People out west must laugh at how ridiculous it all is.  It also amazed me last year how many people would go straight to the paradise woods first run rather than an untouched ripcord.  Why not go into the trees after the trails are tracked out?  Some of my favorite moments at sugarbush last year were on powder days when people in line early for the Bravo realized it was on wind hold then would make a mad dash up the hill for the valley house chair like idiots, their powder dreams crushed.  They probably were going to use the first chair to ski woods too tight for their ability anyway instead of an open trail.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## abc (Dec 17, 2017)

Griswold said:


> I guess I'm just a little bitter because it amazes me how a 6 inch powder day in the east can turn people into such A-holes.  I've had people blatantly cutting me in line, seen arguing and near fights, all for a few runs in a little powder?


People can be uncivilized in ANY situation. I see them all the time on the highway. So I'm not surprised when it happens on the mountain. I've seen people cutting lift lines even NOT in a powder day. 



> _People out west must laugh at how ridiculous it all is. I
> 
> _It also amazed me last year how many people would go straight to the paradise woods first run rather than an untouched ripcord.  Why not go into the trees after the trails are tracked out?


Not just gapers do that. Not just in the east either. 

I was with a group of pretty good skiers, many of whom live in the west, and are NOT powder virgins, in Whistler no less! The lead guy went straight to the trees! I bailed immediately, went down the groomer with untracked 10", ALONE!

So, "no friend on powder days" indeed. Especially if your "friends" have different priority than yours. 

But really, none of that bothers me. I'm out there to enjoy the powder. How others enjoy it or not, ski it well or not, is their business!


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## Hawk (Dec 17, 2017)

Gris, I guess you can chalk it up to the fact that everybody is different.  I am first in line on many days when it snows.  Some days I ski a trail first some days I ski woods.  Just last year on a foot plus day I went over and skied Bear Claw first on the Paradise wall.  If you know the trail then you know is gets cleared out after the first few people so being first is awesome.  But where I chose to ski is part of my mindset and I look at people that ski trails mostly and don't like woods as people who are missing out.  It's all good, we are just different and neither should looked at in terms of quality.  It's just who we are.


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## gregnye (Dec 17, 2017)

While I certainly love powder skiing I also think the obsession with Powder has gotten to be too much. Ever since the marketing of wider skis I see more and more people trying to ski groomers with super wide skis with dull edges. This is the east coast. You can't just get a powder ski and expect it to be enjoyable for the other days when it's groomed or ice.

Now I'm college aged. And even here amongst the college ski community the obsession is ridiculous. Some of my friends straight up said that they won't go skiing with me anymore at a ski resort unless its powder (their argument being that lift tickets are too expensive anyway and it's not worth it). Instead they would rather skin up Mount Washington, only getting one run in but the argument being "quality over quantity"

The way I see it, a good skier is one that is able to ski in all conditions. Powder, Ice, Slush it doesn't matter. I also believe that "a day skiing is better than a day at home".

I really think the major reason behind the new powder obsession is that people buy wide skis as their primary ski and these skis don't really have good edges. So these people show up when the lift opens and quickly leave after noon when the powder starts to go away.


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## crank (Dec 17, 2017)

Griswold said:


> I'm glad at least one or two people (kind of) agree.  I guess I'm just a little bitter because it amazes me how a 6 inch powder day in the east can turn people into such A-holes.  I've had people blatantly cutting me in line, seen arguing and near fights, all for a few runs in a little powder?  People out west must laugh at how ridiculous it all is.  It also amazed me last year how many people would go straight to the paradise woods first run rather than an untouched ripcord.  Why not go into the trees after the trails are tracked out?  Some of my favorite moments at sugarbush last year were on powder days when people in line early for the Bravo realized it was on wind hold then would make a mad dash up the hill for the valley house chair like idiots, their powder dreams crushed.  They probably were going to use the first chair to ski woods too tight for their ability anyway instead of an open trail.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




It's no different out west.  Snowbird on a powder morning is like a testosterone fueled feeding frenzy.  

Sometimes skiers head into the trees because there is more snow and it is less windblown in there.  Having said that, I was skiing a big storm at Stowe a few years back and my friends kept traversing out of bounds which entails a PITA traverse and then a walk up 108 back to the gondola.  I was kind of beat after 4 runs and told my buddies I would just meet them later for lunch.  I skied a couple feet of untracked straight down the regular trails and stayed in bounds the rest of that day.  On the other had I once spent an entire day lapping Jay's side country past Timbukto mainly because getting into the trees got us out of the wind and increased visibility during the storm.


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 17, 2017)

crank said:


> Having said that, I was skiing a big storm at Stowe a few years back and my friends kept traversing out of bounds which entails a PITA traverse and then a walk up 108 back to the gondola.  I was kind of beat after 4 runs and told my buddies I would just meet them later for lunch.  I skied a couple feet of untracked straight down the regular trails and stayed in bounds the rest of that day.



Angel Food is classified Top Secret bro, we don't mention that on the internet.

Joking aside it is a great place to ski on a powder day.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 17, 2017)

taking at least one lap thru angel food or hellbrook on a stowe powder day is mandatory


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## Scruffy (Dec 17, 2017)

Try Alta on a powder day if you want to see a A-hole frenzy.  Powder on piste is a gamblers game, that's why some head for the woods straight away, and some for the open slopes. It's anyone's guess where it will be untracked for that very short period of time at any popular resort. If you want untracked, skin, or take a copter or cat up; or go to a place like Powder Mountain, where you can get untracked for days after a storm. If I'm not skinning, I personally, like the leftovers at resorts. On piste, Chowder is more challenging to ski and less stressful to obtain these days. Sure I'll take lift served untracked when I can get it, but I'm I going to kill myself for the hunt, not any more--been there, done that. It all turns to shit soon anyways, might as well enjoy the left overs.


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