# Holy Snow Guns



## Tooth (May 22, 2012)

http://www.sugarloaf.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2012/EfficiencyMaine.html


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## skiahman (May 22, 2012)

I phucken love the Loaf!!


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2012)

I'm sure this will make a huge difference.  I don't even ski Loon and I still found myself checking their snow report early season seeing how fast they opened terrain and then again late season to see them having more terrain open than just about everywhere in early April.

Can't wait to get back there next season.


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## x10003q (May 23, 2012)

Gore added 130 of these HKDs last year to the lower elevations of the mountain. In a crap year they helped Gore open more terrain than they would have with the older guns they replaced.

NYSKI Blog article about the HKDs from last summer


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## speden (May 23, 2012)

That's good news for the Loaf.

The press release doesn't say if they are installing any automation systems with the new guns or if they will be operated manually.

I was reading an article that automation with weather sensors and computer controlled valves reduces energy use as much as high efficiency guns.  The automation systems can make snow during short temperature windows and shut off as soon as the window closes.  If you use people to plod around the trails connecting hoses and turning on valves in the middle of the night, you miss windows and waste tons of energy.


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## vcunning (May 23, 2012)

From reading the article, it sounds like it doesn't add more snowmaking capacity (not that you bums at the Loaf need it), but makes it much more efficient.  Up to 90%!  I don't know what % of the budget electricity and compressors make up, but that has to be a huge financial win for the loaf, especially with the grant they received.  

Glad to see they were on top of this.  Still one of my all-time favorite mountains (although I still prefer the old Bullwinkles in April, many, many years ago)


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## bigbob (May 23, 2012)

If air is the limiting factor of your snow making plant, you can run more guns at once. I do not know if these guns produce more acre feet of snow with x gallons of water.Air is the more expensive component of snow making.


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## drjeff (May 23, 2012)

bigbob said:


> If air is the limiting factor of your snow making plant, you can run more guns at once. I do not know if these guns produce more acre feet of snow with x gallons of water.Air is the more expensive component of snow making.



At some point with modern low E guns, water can almost become the limiting agent too.  If you've got a gun that uses 1/4th the air that a "traditional gun" uses, then obviously one can run more guns, as long as they can pump enough water to supply all that excess air those low E guns.  Not so much an issue in warmer, more humid conditions, but if you get some cold, dry air with a nice low wet bulb when hardly any air is needed, then if you've got a system that can pump say 10,000 gallons of water a minute,  that could easily be the limiting factor in the snowmaking equation.  The reality is that even more efficient snowmaking is still expensive,  and with the increases in modern technology, the fine folks that make and groom the snow, and the folks that keep track of how much it costs to make and groom the snow have a much better handle on both how much snow they'll typically need to meet their operations target and also when it's the most efficient time to make snow.  This is one of the reasons why in a typical year nowadays, you'll see many ski areas "finish" making snow for the season at an earlier and earlier date than in years past, and very often having made more acre feet of snow in less time because they simply have better "tools" and a better grasp of the cost/efficiency ratio than ever before.  Win-win situation for sure


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## vcunning (May 23, 2012)

drjeff said:


> At some point with modern low E guns, water can almost become the limiting agent too.  If you've got a gun that uses 1/4th the air that a "traditional gun" uses, then obviously one can run more guns, as long as they can pump enough water to supply all that excess air those low E guns.  Not so much an issue in warmer, more humid conditions, but if you get some cold, dry air with a nice low wet bulb when hardly any air is needed, then if you've got a system that can pump say 10,000 gallons of water a minute,  that could easily be the limiting factor in the snowmaking equation.  The reality is that even more efficient snowmaking is still expensive,  and with the increases in modern technology, the fine folks that make and groom the snow, and the folks that keep track of how much it costs to make and groom the snow have a much better handle on both how much snow they'll typically need to meet their operations target and also when it's the most efficient time to make snow.  This is one of the reasons why in a typical year nowadays, you'll see many ski areas "finish" making snow for the season at an earlier and earlier date than in years past, and very often having made more acre feet of snow in less time because they simply have better "tools" and a better grasp of the cost/efficiency ratio than ever before.  Win-win situation for sure



You're such a snow-making nerd.  We need to get together for beers soon. This off-season is very anti-social!


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## drjeff (May 23, 2012)

vcunning said:


> You're such a snow-making nerd.  We need to get together for beers soon. This off-season is very anti-social!



Snowmaking nerd - check

Need to get together for beers soon - CHECK!! :beer:


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## Newpylong (May 24, 2012)

They really need to install them up on trails like White Nitro and Upper Gondola Line. Last time I was there the guns were at least 20 years old (they are the old mini tower mounted variety, rusted to sh!t).


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

*FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw. *


*Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.*


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## drjeff (May 24, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw. *
> 
> 
> *Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.*



I kind of had this basic thought too.

If they're to be installed mainly on trails that are say 50 - 75 feet wide, no problems with the limited throw they have shown to have.  If you're talking a trail that 150+ feet wide, then you're going to end up spending a bunch more in diesel (even the Loaf's promoted Bio Diesel) to push that snow across the trail to get good edge to edge coverage.

In the world of air/water guns, this seems to be one of the major differences aside from the amount of air used, how close the whale of snow produced is to the gun in a low e gun vs. an "old school air hog" gun

The end product though is still pretty darn good


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I kind of had this basic thought too.
> 
> If they're to be installed mainly on trails that are say 50 - 75 feet wide, no problems with the limited throw they have shown to have. If you're talking a trail that 150+ feet wide, then you're going to end up spending a bunch more in diesel (even the Loaf's promoted Bio Diesel) to push that snow across the trail to get good edge to edge coverage.
> 
> ...


 
OL last year had some of the worst conditions I'd ever seen.  Much of that has to do with the snowguns.  

If you want to make snow in the woods, these are the perfect snowguns for it.  :grin:


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## steamboat1 (May 24, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw. *
> 
> 
> *Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.*



Yeah Sugarloaf isn't exactly noted for being protected from the wind. Ol only had about 1/3 of the width of the trail covered because of the low-e guns they installed last year.


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## deadheadskier (May 24, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw. *
> 
> 
> *Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.*



Those "garbage" snow guns enabled Loon to open terrain as quick as anyone at the start of last season.  Those "garbage" snow guns also enabled Loon to have vastly more open terrain than Killington at the end of the season.

I'm not suggesting they're great; truthfully I know jack shit about snowmaking technology.  However, with what Loon put out last season, it's pretty clear that these kind of guns can be employed very effectively.


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Those "garbage" snow guns enabled Loon to open terrain as quick as anyone at the start of last season. Those "garbage" snow guns also enabled Loon to have vastly more open terrain than Killington at the end of the season.
> 
> I'm not suggesting they're great; truthfully I know jack shit about snowmaking technology. However, with what Loon put out last season, it's pretty clear that these kind of guns can be employed very effectively.


 
Well good for them.  Doesn't change the fact that Loon is one of the lamest ski areas in the northeast.

Real mountains need real snowguns.  These are not real snowguns.


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## jimmywilson69 (May 24, 2012)

I am pretty sure they are real.  I saw them in action and they do have absolutely zero through.  The snow quality was very nice, but it doesn't make it very far from the gun.


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I am pretty sure they are real. I saw them in action and they do have absolutely zero through. The snow quality was very nice, but it doesn't make it very far from the gun.


 
They are glorified water mister.


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## jimmywilson69 (May 24, 2012)

I won't argue with that sentiment.  You can tell they are using less air, because they are quiet, but the lack of throw was almost unbelievable.


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## deadheadskier (May 24, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Well good for them.  Doesn't change the fact that Loon is one of the lamest ski areas in the northeast.
> 
> Real mountains need real snowguns.  These are not real snowguns.




answer me this (and I don't care what your mountain preference is)

Who had the better snowmaking effort last season; Killington or Loon?

I'd imagine Boyne went with those guns for two reasons.

1. They have been proven effective at their other resorts.

2. They received free money for installing energy efficient guns.  They may not have had a choice in what types of guns they purchased based upon the language of the grant.

So far, I haven't heard any of the Loaf skiers bitching in this thread about 300 new guns


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> So far, I haven't heard any of the Loaf skiers bitching in this thread about 300 new guns


 
Give it about 7 months.     :flame:


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## Watatic Skier (May 24, 2012)

They are great for the resorts, they cost way less to operate, however from what I saw last fall at SR they seemed to create much wetter snow then the regular guns around them.  They are probably better suited for just being rolled around wherever they are needed to create some cheap snow at night, or being used to create piles for a snowcat to push around.


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## bigbob (May 24, 2012)

I was at Killington when these guns were first fired up. The wind was from the south, sending most of the snow into the woods on OL.
 At the end of the season the ticket checker at the Bear Quad was either a snowmaker or and electrical. He had a HKD hat on. He was very knowledgeable, had wired the system that brings water down from the reservoir, and was a long time employee. He made the simple comment of" look how much snow is left on OL". This was after they had reopened Bear with the bus shuttle service, and after the early heat wave.. Do not underestimate these guns, with the price of energy rising you will be seeing more of these around.


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## Highway Star (May 24, 2012)

bigbob said:


> "........look how much snow is *left* on OL".


 
LOL.  What about the *right* side???


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## bigbob (May 24, 2012)

Right side has not seen dedicated snowmaking since ASC went belly up, you know that and are just a troll since I disagreed with you. Grow up, or pack up and go back to Stowe and whine about something there you don't like.


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## millerm277 (May 25, 2012)

I don't think they're necessarily BAD, just inappropriate for where they were used (OL), where you need something with a lot of throw on it, like some big fan guns.

Where I saw them used at Gore (which has much narrower trails), they performed excellently.


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> LOL.  What about the *right* side???



The pics I saw of Outer Limits were certainly depressing this season.  I get where you are coming from. That said, couldn't the short throw deficiencies be counteracted with groomers moving the snow piles across the trail.


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## drjeff (May 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The pics I saw of Outer Limits were certainly depressing this season.  I get where you are coming from. That said, couldn't the short throw deficiencies be counteracted with groomers moving the snow piles across the trail.


If you need to burn a bunch of extra diesel in the snowcats to save some diesel in the compressors is it really that much more efficient?


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## jimmywilson69 (May 25, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If you need to burn a bunch of extra diesel in the snowcats to save some diesel in the compressors is it really that much more efficient?



Exactly.   That is where tower mounted low e guns clearly fall short.   In the case of OL, if they were "portable" they couldve ran them from both sides of the trail and had decent coverage. Although it sounds like the pipes on skiers right haven't been used in years.


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## snowmonster (May 25, 2012)

Judging from where the guns will be placed, I can see that Sugarloaf will be stockpiling snow in the places they need to keep open to stretch the season, Candyside in particular. It must have really stung for them that they were pipped by Jay Peak two seasons in a row. This will make for a very interesting King of Spring debate next year.

Regardless of the merits of the technology, thumbs up on this. As a passholder, this is great news. It shows me that management cares and wants to make sure that we have a long ski season. I'm optimistic that my late season lift-served turns next year will be in Maine and not Vermont.


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## Highway Star (May 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> That said, couldn't the short throw deficiencies be counteracted with groomers moving the snow piles across the trail.



....of course, this is exactly what they did, and it was an epic fail.  After several cycles of thaw/freeze followed by snowmaking, they had a 15+ foot tall ridge on lookers right of the trail.  They wench catted it, knocking off the top 5 feet and pushing it over, adding maybe 30-40ft of width to the snowmaking area, so roughly 50% of the trail was covered.  Now think about for a minute what this does.  They just took the top 5 ft of the freshest snow off, and pushed over, compressing it in the process, and leaving the remaining 10 ft of old snow, aka *ICE*. 

OL was a vertical skating rink for most of the season, to the point where they had to close it due to fall-slide injuries where at least one person went to the hospital. There was even one day where I found ski patrol and asked them to close it before someone got hurt. I saw a small pack of gapers take an hour plus to sideslip/walk down the trail.   It was the worst I had ever seen it.  In 05'-06' under ASC, which was also a difficult year, it was not nearly as bad on OL.  I have seen time and time again that Killington's current management just doesn't know how to handle the steep supertrails.

I'm no pro, but here is what I would do on OL.   I would remove every other sv10 and reinstall them somewhere else (islands on snowshed).  It would use the empty towers to mount man-detachable ground/tripod guns such as k3000's or ratnicks (think tripod with a short tube on the bottom for the post, or heck, just stick one leg in a post), such that they could set up with a long hose and either be fixed to a tower or dragged out onto the trail as needed.   This would greatly increase coverage width of the trail due to the longer throw and portability of the ground guns.

I would also install 5 to 8 platforms, electrical and control lines under the lift for carriage mounted fan guns. Guns would be moved there after they were used for early season expansion elsewhere.  These would be run as much as possible, semi-automated, for constant refresh.


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## Method9455 (May 25, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw. *
> 
> 
> *Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.*



You're an idiot. 

Killington cheaped out and bought the wrong guns for that job. They should have gotten fan guns for a trail that wide. 

That doesn't mean these guns are crap. They do exactly what they're designed for - making snow cheaply. The fact that Killington valued being cheap over covering the whole trail speaks to their priorities, not the quality of these guns.

On most trails, too much throw is a waste. How often do you see 1/3 of the snow the're making plastered against the trees on the other side? That isn't helpful at all. 

Outer Limits is not representative of the average east coast ski trail.


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## Highway Star (May 25, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> You're an idiot.



Well, that's just uncalled for.


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## steamboat1 (May 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The pics I saw of Outer Limits were certainly depressing this season.  I get where you are coming from. That said, couldn't the short throw deficiencies be counteracted with groomers moving the snow piles across the trail.



They did spread it out with snow cats. It still only covered 1/3 of the trail.


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## Newpylong (May 25, 2012)

Something Ratnik, old school HKD Genesis or SMI Pole cats is what a trail like OL needs.  Low E ie no throw Definitely not the right tool for the job.


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## steamboat1 (May 25, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> Killington cheaped out and bought the wrong guns for that job. They should have gotten fan guns for a trail that wide.
> 
> ...


Devils Fiddle, Cruise Control, Needles Eye, Superstar, Ovation, Double Dipper, Snowshed Slope are trails at K that are just as wide as Outer Limits & this is just at K. I wouldn't exactly call most of the trails at Sugarloaf narrow either. In fact I would say that wide boulevard trails are more the norm today in the east than the traditional narrow windy trails of yesteryear.


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## skiadikt (May 25, 2012)

Method9455 said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> Killington cheaped out and bought the wrong guns for that job. They should have gotten fan guns for a trail that wide.
> 
> ...



yup clearly the wrong tool for the job unless the new plan is to cover about 40% the width of ol which is too little for a trail of that width, steepness and traffic. that should be a showcase trail (or at least used to be) and last season was a joke. someone in mtn opps got sold. certainly the energy efficiency was the overriding factor. ultimately they did blow a ton of snow. think there was one stretch where the guns ran for something like 9 straight days.


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## snowmonster (May 25, 2012)

Funny how a Sugarloaf thread morphs into a Killington thread. 

Yup, summer's here!


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## skiadikt (May 25, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Funny how a Sugarloaf thread morphs into a Killington thread.
> 
> Yup, summer's here!



oops you're right ... hopefully they're the right gun for wherever sugarloaf is gonna install them. 300 snow guns is a lot of firepower.


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## HowieT2 (May 25, 2012)

Sugarbush bought high efficiency Snowlogic guns last year and consequently were able to max out on water at least once that i recall.  Not that there werent issues with them, they're big and bulky to move and probably better fitted on towers, but given electricity costs now and where they are going in the future, it seems to be a wise investment. If they don't throw the snow far enough to your liking, the snow can always be moved.  Better to be able to make the snow.  These new guns are markedly, 90+%, more efficient in optimal temperatures than the old guns, so if you like snow, which i assume you all do, i cant see how you dont like these.  Even if you dont  give a rats ass about the environment, using less energy is a good thing.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 29, 2012)

*HOLY SNOW GUNS BATMAN!!!*


http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/conditions/offseason-snowmaking-investments/

This year Stowe Mountain Resort continues to invest in its  state-of-the-art snowmaking operations with an additional *4.7 million  dollars* in new equipment and upgrades that include; *325* HKD tower guns,  *150* energy efficient land guns, *16* Super Pole Cat fan guns and *seven  miles *of new snowmaking pipe. In addition to supplementing its already  superlative snowmaking, this year’s improvements will allow* Stowe to  operate with greater energy efficiency and eliminate 100,000 gallons of  diesel storage, use and emissions.*


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## deadheadskier (Aug 30, 2012)

according to Adironrider, that's maintenance; not improvement.  :lol:


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## Highway Star (Aug 14, 2013)

Bump.  Has anyone seen these in action at Sugarloaf?  Now it looks like Okemo is going to be installing the same trash.  IIRC, Killington didn't really even use them at all on outer limits last year, and conditions were greatly improved.  

http://okemo.com/press/newsroom/snowburst.asp


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## skiahman (Aug 14, 2013)

Loafer here......Trash? HKD? Or Killington? Yes, Killington, trash. HKD, nope. Some of the best man made snow I've ever skied and I've been doing it for over 40 years.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 14, 2013)

skiahman said:


> Loafer here......Trash? HKD? Or Killington? Yes, Killington, trash. HKD, nope. Some of the best man made snow I've ever skied and I've been doing it for over 40 years.



Hunter Mountain made great powder snow for many years now. They started the better snowmaking guns many years ago.


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## bobbutts (Aug 14, 2013)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.  Has anyone seen these in action at Sugarloaf?  Now it looks like Okemo is going to be installing the same trash.  IIRC, Killington didn't really even use them at all on outer limits last year, and conditions were greatly improved.
> 
> http://okemo.com/press/newsroom/snowburst.asp



What change did K made last year that worked better?

What's the best way to cover a wide, steep, open slope like OL?


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## ScottySkis (Aug 14, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> What change did K made last year that worked better?
> 
> What's the best way to cover a wide, steep, open slope like OL?



They do it Hunter West all the time, the air snow machine works the best.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 15, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> What change did K made last year that worked better?
> 
> What's the best way to cover a wide, steep, open slope like OL?



They didn't use the HKDs HS mentioned.  The throw on those guns was not sufficient to cover OL.  They used some of their old ground mounted guns and stretched hoses.  Coverage was nice. 

In my opinion they should be using tower mounted fan guns on a slope like OL.


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## bobbutts (Aug 15, 2013)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They didn't use the HKDs HS mentioned.  The throw on those guns was not sufficient to cover OL.  They used some of their old ground mounted guns and stretched hoses.  Coverage was nice.
> 
> In my opinion they should be using tower mounted fan guns on a slope like OL.



So back to the old way, makes sense, I remember the trail being much better covered side to side the 90's compared to 2 years ago.  I was there this spring and it seemed much less of a hump on the chairlift side, but no evidence of how it got to be like that.

Pat's Peak has Super Polecats on Hurricane and they throw a long way and make plenty of snow.  I could picture a setup like that working well on OL too.


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## Highway Star (Aug 19, 2013)

skiahman said:


> Loafer here......Trash? HKD? Or Killington? Yes, Killington, trash. HKD, nope. Some of the best man made snow I've ever skied and I've been doing it for over 40 years.




Bwahahahahaha.....I'm guessing you have extremely low standards for snow surface quality!  These SV10 snowguns save compressed air - sugarloaf has way, way less compressor capacity than Killington - that's all that they have going for them.  Fact is, HKD low energy guns have terrible throw, a very small temperature sweet spot, are a pain to move around and typically produce low quality snow.   Killington has had them for over 5 years, and they are used infrequently.


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## Newpylong (Aug 19, 2013)

The HKD Low-E guns are garbage. There is a reason Killington rarely uses them and drags out the K guns all the time.


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## drjeff (Aug 20, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> So back to the old way, makes sense, I remember the trail being much better covered side to side the 90's compared to 2 years ago.  I was there this spring and it seemed much less of a hump on the chairlift side, but no evidence of how it got to be like that.
> 
> Pat's Peak has Super Polecats on Hurricane and they throw a long way and make plenty of snow.  I could picture a setup like that working well on OL too.



Tower mounted super polecats set up in a direction that allows the prevailing wind to carry the snow across the trail will get you about 50 yards or so of dependable coverage once you've put enough product down.  That's based on what i've seen Mount Snow do with the roughly 100 yard wide snowdance trail the last 5 or so years since they installed the Polecats on it.

Skiers left 1/2 of the trail usually has good coverage where as the right roughly 1/2 of the trail is is more up to what mother nature provides.

My guess is that a bunch of fan guns mounted on OL would get you some good base depths, with minimal amount of diesel burned in the snowcats over about 2/3rds or so of OL's width.

With any wide trail though, even though tower mounted guns have the advantage of extra "hang time" for the snow crystals to form and expand a bit before reaching the ground, there are just some times when you can't beat dragging some hoses a bit across the trail and setting up a "gun line" in a location that allows full width coverage.  It's just that unless it's done when snow is being made to initially open up a trail, you've got to rope off a bunch of the width of the trail so that the equipment doesn't get beat up by guests skiing over it and then once the "far side" of the trail is covered, pull the gear back to the side where the pipes run and cover that side, which is a bit more of a time and labor intensive process.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 18, 2013)

Stowe Mountain Resort’s continued investment in state-of-the-art  snowmaking operations includes an additional $3.4 million in new  equipment and upgrades for the 2013-14 winter season, which consist of  120 HKD tower guns, 4 Super Pole Cat fan guns and miles of new  snowmaking pipe. Add that to the $4.7 million invested last summer for a  two year total that includes 445 HKD tower guns, 150 energy efficient  land guns, 20 Super Pole Cat fan guns and seven miles of new snowmaking  pipe. These improvements allow Stowe to operate with greater energy  efficiency, increases potential for more early season terrain, increases  overall snow quality and allows mountain operations to resurface the  mountain quickly.


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## C-Rex (Sep 18, 2013)

I'm just going to hope the Farmer's Almanac is correct about a cold, snowy winter this year and then this whole arguement is moot.


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