# Buying a car ... tips / tricks / advice



## Nick (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm on the verge of needing a new car. I am driving a 2003 Saab 9-3 with 175k miles on it, wife has a 2002 Mitsubishi Lancer with ~110k on it. Looking to replace her car this spring, and mine a year after that. they are both paid off, which is nice. 

Since we are having a kid and have 2 labs, I think I want something bigger, small SUV style would be good. I've been eyeing a VW Tiguan. I really want to stay < 25k for the car and get something with < 15k miles on it. 

Any tips on what sites to look at? I used to use Autotrader, but that was eight years ago and not sure if there are any other better sites out there. Haven't done any test drives yet, just starting to poke around slowly here and see what is out there. 

Also, considering selling car private sale vs. trading it in to try and increase what we can get from it. Trade in values for the '02 Lancer are around $3k, but private sale is supposedly around $4000.

This one seemed pretty decent, Certified pre owned, has 25k, but is 4wd and has an upgraded package.


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## jrmagic (Jan 30, 2012)

If I were you I would forgo the extra grand or whatenver you think you can get from a private sale and see what you can get from a dealer. There are lots of potential headaches involved with the private sale that I wouldn't want to deal with.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 30, 2012)

pros and cons to both, i had a great experience selling on my own and with dealers.  Just and FYI, my buddy was in your position last year, one on the way, 1 dog, got the Tigan...he's now looking for something bigger...was too small for him, wife, dog and baby gear....


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## hammer (Jan 30, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> pros and cons to both, i had a great experience selling on my own and with dealers.  Just and FYI, my buddy was in your position last year, one on the way, 1 dog, got the Tigan...he's now looking for something bigger...was too small for him, wife, dog and baby gear....


Any advice on selling an older car with issues?

I had a brief look inside a Tiguan when I was looking a few years ago.  Seemed a bit on the smaller side which is OK if that's what you are looking for.


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## Cheese (Jan 30, 2012)

If you're going to a dealer to purchase, make sure you get the _dealer prep _ or _document prep_ fees ahead of time.  These fees can be anywhere from $100-$1000 and are tacked onto the invoice after you've negotiated the price.  In other words, the cheapest option may be for a more expensive invoice with lower "out the door" fees.


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## HD333 (Jan 30, 2012)

Throw the Saab or Mitsu on Craigslist for a week and entertain offers, cash is better than a trade in. A few years ago I ended up trading in my Saab 9-3 after a Craigslist sale fell through for only  $500 less than the price I agreed to on craigslist. Dealers will be aiming for wholesale value not trade in.  We just traded my wife's car and ended up at average trade in value.  Dealers will either move on your trade or the purchase price,  all comes out the same in the end. We had to resort to the get up and walk away tactic buying her new rig. 
I 2nd or 3rd that the Tiquan is real small, 2 Labs, a kid(and kid accessories ) will be a real tight fit.


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## skijay (Jan 30, 2012)

Early last summer my friend needed help purchasing a new car.  She chose the 2011 CRV LX.  When we went to purchase it, I downloaded the KBB (Kelley Blue Book) app for the iPhone (Droid must have it, too).  I used it while at the Honda dealer in Enfield, CT and made her offer the "Fair Purchase Price" that was on KBB for the CRV.  They declined and came back with a higher price.  I called the next closest dealer while sitting with the sales guy and sales manager.  I was able to find the same CRV in Hartford, CT and suddenly the price she offered was accepted.


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## Nick (Jan 30, 2012)

Nice, good tip Skijay


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## wa-loaf (Jan 30, 2012)

My sister-in-law just got the new CRV. It's really nice and good sized inside.


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## Rushski (Jan 31, 2012)

The newer Subaru wagons are quite a bit bigger than they used to be.  Plus their AWD is near-perfect and extremely reliable.


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## Glenn (Jan 31, 2012)

If you're looking at a fairly "new" used car...look into new. The gap between a year or so old used car and new car is narrow. With out me blah blah blahing....the used market is pretty hot right now. It may make sense to spend the extra few grand and just get new.


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## Nick (Jan 31, 2012)

Yeah, I noticed it is very low today. My 2003 Saab 9-3 was 1 year old and had 4500 miles on it when I bought it. So, basically new. I was looking for something like that. It was a CPO also which was nice b/c it had a bumper to bumper 100k warranty. 

SPeaking of Saab, saw brand new 9-5 Aero sedans for $19k !!


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## xwhaler (Jan 31, 2012)

Consider the Kias. We just got a 2012 Sorento AWD v6 EX for my wife at the end of November. Already have put close to 7k miles on it with her daily commute and every wknd ski trips.
If you had asked me 5 yrs ago to look at a Kia I'd have said no way but they have come a long way. We are similiar to you in that we have a dog and will start to have a kid in the next year or so. We wanted something AWD with space. 
We test drove 7 vehicles and Kia was the best looking+value+options+independent reviews/reliability for us.

I beat the dealers up good. Check out truecar.com. Build out your vehicle and see the closest dealer that has the exact build out you want. I then printed the sheet and sent it to 20 local (within 150 miles) dealers to see if they would beat the price. The truecar dealer was in upstate NY but I made it clear to the local guys that I would go there to get the vehicle if they couldn't beat the price.
It took some coordination keeping all the replies startaight and some dealers had no interest in getting into a bidding war but at the end of the day we rolled away with an unbelievable deal. Got it at Kia of Saco in Maine who were real easy to work with once they knew I was interested in price and price alone.


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## andrec10 (Jan 31, 2012)

I have a 2011 Outback and its been great! Gets 30mpg on the highway and is a LOT bigger than a Tiguan...I checked them both out. IMHO...


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## Nick (Jan 31, 2012)

It's funny you know I have this preconceived notion about Kia but it actually looks pretty damn nice.


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## xwhaler (Jan 31, 2012)

Abt 5 yrs ago Kia made a really smart move in hiring the director of design for Audi to run their program. I'm not comparing a Kia to an Audi but many of the new Kias are head turners and can get mistaken for a higher end luxury vehicle if you don't see the badge.

We test drove both the Sportage and the Sorento. I liked the Sportage but it felt too small for us. I'm 6' 1" and 200lbs and I felt like I was sliding off the seats, almost like they werent long enough or something. The Sorento is real comfortable and loaded with nice options.

The other vehicles in this segment we test drove:
Toyota Venza (this was our #2 choice. It's got a bit of a funky design but is really well laid out inside)
Rav 4....nice option but can;t get past the spare tire on the back...really limits its effectivness in tight places as it adds 4' to the length of it with the side hinging tailgate.

Mazda CX-7: We have an '06 Mazda 3 I use for my daily commuter car and have had good luck with the car so far so I wanted to like the CX-7. To us it felt dated and I didnt see the point of getting a turbo charged SUV that required premium fuel given our annual miles exceed 30k.

CRV: We test drove the 2011 model as the 2012's were not yet on the lots. Nice vehicle, well laid out but if you want options it doesnt really have much. The 2012's are a bit nicer looking IMO.

You could also consider a Subaru Tribeca. Those didnt sell that well so the Truecar pricing on those was impressive...3rd row seating standard and still respectable MPG...AWD comes standard as well.


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## hammer (Jan 31, 2012)

xwhaler said:


> I beat the dealers up good. Check out truecar.com. Build out your vehicle and see the closest dealer that has the exact build out you want. I then printed the sheet and sent it to 20 local (within 150 miles) dealers to see if they would beat the price. The truecar dealer was in upstate NY but I made it clear to the local guys that I would go there to get the vehicle if they couldn't beat the price.
> It took some coordination keeping all the replies startaight and some dealers had no interest in getting into a bidding war but at the end of the day we rolled away with an unbelievable deal. Got it at Kia of Saco in Maine who were real easy to work with once they knew I was interested in price and price alone.


Beating up and comparing dealers works well when you want what they have on the lot...but if you have a specific option set then it does get harder.  When we bought our Jeep we wanted the tow package, a specific trim level, and a few specific colors...which made finding the right vehicle tricky.  We even tried to use the Zag buying service, but the participating dealers could not be bothered to work with us so we just haggled over a vehicle with another dealer.  Worked out OK in the end but I know we didn't get the "best" price.

Lots more choice out there...the Korean and US automakers have stepped up their game and the Japanese automakers have been resting on their laurels a bit much, so it's not as much of a no-brainer to look at or get a Japanese make vehicle as it was a few years ago.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 31, 2012)

Well one great thing about craigslist is you get more of story behind car, i bought a great used honda civic 2000 year six years ago, girl who so it to me only used to go to college and home,  low miles never had it in shop the year i owned it ran great only problem was people in bronx decided to steal it and dismantled it and leave it by yankee stadium


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## Black Phantom (Jan 31, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Well one great thing about craigslist is you get more of story behind car, i bought a great used honda civic 2000 year six years ago, girl who so it to me only used to go to college and home,  low miles never had it in shop the year i owned it ran great only problem was people in bronx decided to steal it and dismantled it and leave it by yankee stadium



Do you have any pictures of what was left? 

I used to see couches on fire there in the summer time!


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## EllenK (Jan 31, 2012)

I have an '09 Chevy Equinox which I like. The newer ones are the same as the GMC Terrain and may be worth you checking out!


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## SkiFanE (Jan 31, 2012)

If the car has issues, trade it in.  If you feel confident it's a good car and you'll stand behind it, sell it yourself.  I've done both, all depends on what you are unloading, lol.

I'm on the fence on new and used.  Done both.  I like new for the security of knowing the history.  But I like the CPO warranty that makes a used a good deal.  But like someone said, used market is hot now, may get a better deal new (with a 0% loan...got that on our last loan, ended up financing it 100% and saving our downpayment in the bank, why not?).

But...I would NEVER buy a used VW.  Never owned one...but heard so many lemon stories, I'd be afraid of getting the lemon that someone just unloaded.


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## hammer (Jan 31, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> If the car has issues, trade it in.  If you feel confident it's a good car and you'll stand behind it, sell it yourself.  I've done both, all depends on what you are unloading, lol.


Just been concerned about our 11 YO Toyota Highlander lately...has 195K on it and it's showing signs of wear.  Hard to consider selling a car that burns oil, needs new tires, is starting to rust, and will need brake work (including the parking brake which sticks).  Highlanders seem to hold their value well but I'm sure the ones on the lots are in much better condition than ours.


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## SkiFanE (Jan 31, 2012)

hammer said:


> Just been concerned about our 11 YO Toyota Highlander lately...has 195K on it and it's showing signs of wear.  Hard to consider selling a car that burns oil, needs new tires, is starting to rust, and will need brake work (including the parking brake which sticks).  Highlanders seem to hold their value well but I'm sure the ones on the lots are in much better condition than ours.



Yup..dealer trade on that one, get whatever you can to get it off your hands!  

My current car is a 2000.  Living surrounded by huge tall trees I was hoping the summer/fall storms would land a big oak on it's roof.  Worth more totaled, but we were spared.


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## jaytrem (Jan 31, 2012)

Be cautious of places selling a new car for only a bit more than a used version.  The idea is to make people into think thy're getting a great deal on the new one.  When in reality the used one is just intentionally overpriced.  A freind of mine ran into this trick not too long ago.  Yeah, your new car is only $1500 more than the used from last year, but it's $4000 more than the used at the dealership 20 miles away.  Of course if you do your homework in advance, or have some kind of app for that, it shouldn't be an issue.

And if you're in no hurry, don't buy the first time you meet with a dealer, but try to establish a relationship with him.  Maybe get some email exchanges going.  My wife did really well with a used Highlander, but it was about a 2 week process to get the price she wanted.  The car only had 7000 miles on it and upon very close inspection I think it was only driven indoors.

Good luck!!!


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## Cheese (Jan 31, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Be cautious of places selling a new car for only a bit more than a used version.  The idea is to make people into think thy're getting a great deal on the new one.!



Be cautious yes, but don't be surprised if new does work out cheaper than a 1 or 2 year old car.  As an example, last month Ford offered $1000 credit on the vehicle, $500 credit on package options and a $500 credit for using Ford credit for financing (no penalty for refinancing immediately).  That $2000 off makes new very competitive with newer used Fords. 

Just because the dealer doesn't have the car on the lot doesn't mean they can't get the car with the options you're looking for in a day or two.  Dealerships trade vehicles all the time.

January/February are slow months for dealerships.  Right now there's a good chance they'll be willing to deal.

If they claim they're losing money on the deal, remind them that they'll be receiving the document prep fee, dealer hold back and profits from extended warranties and protection sales ( I wouldn't buy them, but the thought that you're considering them may help price negotiation).


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## deadheadskier (Jan 31, 2012)

xwhaler said:


> Consider the Kias. We just got a 2012 Sorento AWD v6 EX for my wife at the end of November. Already have put close to 7k miles on it with her daily commute and every wknd ski trips.
> If you had asked me 5 yrs ago to look at a Kia I'd have said no way but they have come a long way. We are similiar to you in that we have a dog and will start to have a kid in the next year or so. We wanted something AWD with space.
> We test drove 7 vehicles and Kia was the best looking+value+options+independent reviews/reliability for us.
> 
> .



and for the same reasons Hyundai should be on people's radars as well, especially if reliability matters.

I've got an 07 with 168K miles on it that still drives very well and have >$500 worth of issues (under warranty) during my time of ownership.  Other than that, just routine maintenance.  

I generally try and keep my cars to 200K miles, but I may keep this one even longer if it continues to be problem free.


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## o3jeff (Jan 31, 2012)

Do your homework and know what the car is worth and what they are are actually selling for. Also try to do the bargaining via email, if your sitting in front of them they have a good chance of closing a deal, if you are sitting at home they have to entice you to come back into the dealer and don't be afraid to low ball them, cause a dealer will take advantage of you the first chance they get. And when they are about to agree on a price, make them throw in a trailer hitch or the all weather mats!


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## skijay (Jan 31, 2012)

I am a Costco member and tried the car buying service they offered in 2009.  I had found what I wanted locally but the Costco dealer was in Northampton, MA.  I drove 30 minutes to get there only to get a price that was higher than another dealership gave me and also the trade in value was about $500 less.

The following day I went back to the Springfield, MA (non Costco) and bought the vehicle.  

I think if I bought it from the Costco dealer I rec'd $250 in dealership credit or a debit card.  Still was not worth it.


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## drjeff (Feb 1, 2012)

My 2 cents - get something slightly bigger than you think you'll need.  Trust me when I say that it's positively amazing at the amount of gear that you find yourself carrying around when you have a little kid!  

On a more serious note.  Do yourself (and your wife too) a favor and actually look in the back seat to see how easy and/or tough it is to get to the clip in latch for the child seat restraint.  Some of them are an absolutely beast to access which if you're going to be switching car seats in/out this can be a real pain in the a$$


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## o3jeff (Feb 1, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> My sister-in-law just got the new CRV. It's really nice and good sized inside.



I have the Acura version of this(RDX), do you plan on having the 2 dogs, and your child in this at the same time? 2 dogs will fit fine with the seats folded down, but with the seats up the dogs will have to sit upright back there. Other than that the car is a good size, roomy back seats that can fit adults and plenty of room for ski gear with one side of the rear seat folded down.

You might need something a lot bigger than you think.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 1, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> I have the Acura version of this(RDX), do you plan on having the 2 dogs, and your child in this at the same time? 2 dogs will fit fine with the seats folded down, but with the seats up the dogs will have to sit upright back there. Other than that the car is a good size, roomy back seats that can fit adults and plenty of room for ski gear with one side of the rear seat folded down.
> 
> You might need something a lot bigger than you think.



This is the 2012 CRV, bigger than the old one and has a nice square back on it maximizing space in the rear. I really do fine with my Outback and a roof box with two kids and even when I had a dog. Trouble I run into now is my gf has a kid and we don't have room for 3 kids in either of our cars. She's looking for something new right now and the CRV is top on her list. I'm keeping the Outback for at least another year.


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## Nick (Feb 1, 2012)

I enjoy camping in the summer too so that's a ton of gear, so I definitely want big enough... have to balance it though with mileage and other factors.


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## HD333 (Feb 1, 2012)

We fought the too small battle for too long. Bit the bullet and bought a 2011 Tahoe last weekend. If we outgrow that we are in trouble.


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## drjeff (Feb 1, 2012)

HD333 said:


> We fought the too small battle for too long. Bit the bullet and bought a 2011 Tahoe last weekend. If we outgrow that we are in trouble.



Well there is always the Suburban!  

If one outgrows that, well then someone in that family needs to get fixed! :lol:


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## jaytrem (Feb 1, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If one outgrows that, well then someone in that family needs to get fixed! :lol:



Hey Jeff, try not to be so snippy.


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## xwhaler (Feb 1, 2012)

The Kia Sorento is very roomy...u can get it equipped with fold flat 3rd row of seats of you want that arent as puny as you would think. We leave ours folded down and the dog goes back there with plenty of space.
We have already talked though about the issue of the skis/poles+bags+baby seat+dog and realize that we'll likely be getting a roof box sometime next year.

I liked the looks of the Tiguan but its one of the smallest CUV's on the market right now and I don't think practical for a growing family.

If you are concerned with gas mileage consider the 4 cyl Sorento. Ours is a v6 with loads of power but we test drove a 4 and it had perfectly adequate highway performence.
I think the 4 cyl gets mid to high 20's with AWD.


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## Geoff (Feb 2, 2012)

HD333 said:


> We fought the too small battle for too long. Bit the bullet and bought a 2011 Tahoe last weekend. If we outgrow that we are in trouble.



The European approach to this problem is totally different.   What you see there is that everybody owns small cars.   They'll put a pod on the roof and tow a small trailer in those infrequent times when they need the extra capacity.   For the life of me, I don't understand why anybody would want to drive around in a Tahoe or Chevy Subdivision every day when they only need that interior volume occasionally.


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## Nick (Feb 2, 2012)

i think it's more convenience, nothing to hook up, just get in the car and go. 

FWIW my wife will stay home once we have the baby and I get to work from home 2x per week, so I am really only driving to work and back (60 miles RT) 3x per week, plus wherever else we go. A long haul from when we were both driving 60 miles RT 5x per week.


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## o3jeff (Feb 2, 2012)

Nick said:


> i think it's more convenience, nothing to hook up, just get in the car and go.
> 
> FWIW my wife will stay home once we have the baby and I get to work from home 2x per week, so I am really only driving to work and back (60 miles RT) 3x per week, plus wherever else we go. A long haul from when we were both driving 60 miles RT 5x per week.



I thought the car was for her?


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## hammer (Feb 2, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The European approach to this problem is totally different.   What you see there is that everybody owns small cars.   They'll put a pod on the roof and tow a small trailer in those infrequent times when they need the extra capacity.   For the life of me, I don't understand why anybody would want to drive around in a Tahoe or Chevy Subdivision every day when they only need that interior volume occasionally.



I sometimes wonder about the European approach to towing...


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## Nick (Feb 2, 2012)

My wife is really digging the Ford Edge. 

I'm having a tough time right now.... I can get a brand new 2011 Saab 9-3 for $21k. That seems ridiculous to me.


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## Nick (Feb 2, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> I thought the car was for her?



Well, yeah :lol:


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## Puck it (Feb 2, 2012)

Just bought my second FJ Cruiser. Paid invoice for it.  Added other things. My son has the old FJ now.


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## HD333 (Feb 2, 2012)

Puck it said:


> Just bought my second FJ Cruiser. Paid invoice for it.  Added other things. My son has the old FJ now.



Lucky Son.


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## Puck it (Feb 2, 2012)

HD333 said:


> Lucky Son.



His jeep liberty had the check engine come on and pulled code. It was the torque converter error code.  And the FJ was a '08 but 110k on it.  Less headache for him to have that.


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## Cheese (Feb 2, 2012)

Nick said:


> My wife is really digging the Ford Edge.



That's a great choice, IMO.  It's on my wish list for next fall.


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## darent (Feb 2, 2012)

those car people know every trick in the book and have no scrupples. so when buying be well informed on the pricing for the car u want, put on your assh&le face and remember THAT YOU ARE INCHARGE OF THE DEAL,{ no deal without your signature} and check your paper work before you sign!!  leave wife at home, women don't like confrontation, take wife if she is a natural ball buster. buy towards end of month. salesmen might have had good month and be more willing  to deal..  remember they need you more than you need them, they're 5250 guitar pickers in nashville, but only one virtuoso like you !!


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## hammer (Feb 2, 2012)

Nick said:


> My wife is really digging the Ford Edge.


We sat in one but didn't take it for a test drive...our requirements included some towing capability and the Edge is really a CUV.  Real shame, seemed nice on the inside and a decent amount of space.


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## Nick (Feb 2, 2012)

hammer said:


> We sat in one but didn't take it for a test drive...our requirements included some towing capability and the Edge is really a CUV.  Real shame, seemed nice on the inside and a decent amount of space.



What do you mean? It has 285 HP ... and awd the ones we are looking at


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## hammer (Feb 2, 2012)

Nick said:


> What do you mean? It has 285 HP ... and awd the ones we are looking at


Just 3500 lb rated towing capacity vs 5000 for our Jeep Grand Cherokee V6 which has about the same HP.  It's about more than the pulling power...


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## ZYDECORICH (Feb 2, 2012)

drjeff said:


> My 2 cents - get something slightly bigger than you think you'll need.  Trust me when I say that it's positively amazing at the amount of gear that you find yourself carrying around when you have a little kid!
> 
> On a more serious note.  Do yourself (and your wife too) a favor and actually look in the back seat to see how easy and/or tough it is to get to the clip in latch for the child seat restraint.  Some of them are an absolutely beast to access which if you're going to be switching car seats in/out this can be a real pain in the a$$



 I kinda agree with Doc here. Get something bigger than what you think need. We were going to get a Honda CRV and ended up getting a Honda Pilot after following similar advice we got from a friend. It was true, you have more s__t than you think, especially with kids. Remember, your nothing but a pack mule.The car seats went in rather easy with the Pilot. It was also great on gas for the size. Great in the snow.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 3, 2012)

Don't get 1996 honda accord not the best car to drive to Plattekill a lot


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

hammer said:


> Just 3500 lb rated towing capacity vs 5000 for our Jeep Grand Cherokee V6 which has about the same HP.  It's about more than the pulling power...



Makes sense, I hadn't lookeda t the torque. Not sure what I"ll be pulling but I can't imagine it will exceed 3500lb :lol:


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## hammer (Feb 3, 2012)

Nick said:


> Makes sense, I hadn't looked at the torque. Not sure what I"ll be pulling but I can't imagine it will exceed 3500lb :lol:


Think the torque numbers are similar as well, and I'd guess that the Jeep is heavier.  My guess is that the differences are due to other factors (chassis, suspension, brakes).

FWIW we tow a 2000 lb pop-up camper, and our Toyota Highlander with a 3500 lb rated tow capacity handles it but it isn't as stable on the highway as I'd like.  The Jeep does fine but the V6 is definitely working to pull the camper, think it would have a hard time pulling anything over 4000 lb or so even though it's rated to 5000 lb.

When we went camping in VT last summer there were a lot of Canadians at the campground...they were towing small travel trailers with smaller CUVs and cars.  Not something I would do.

If we didn't need a tow vehicle I would have definitely looked at a CUV for the better gas mileage and on-road manners (although the Jeep has real nice on road manners for an SUV).

You seemed temped to get another Saab...what about the lack of any warranties?


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

yeah I'm mixedon it. I guess basically it boils down to having a saab now with no warranty, or buying a much crappier car in a yaer from now for about the same price that does have a warranty. 

Apparently you can get aftermarket warranties from AAA and others. That might be OK, as long as I had coverage for major events (like an engine problem) I would be happy. The price savings (almost 13k) can cover a lot of work in between


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## xwhaler (Feb 3, 2012)

Nick said:


> yeah I'm mixedon it. I guess basically it boils down to having a saab now with no warranty, or buying a much crappier car in a yaer from now for about the same price that does have a warranty.
> 
> Apparently you can get aftermarket warranties from AAA and others. That might be OK, as long as I had coverage for major events (like an engine problem) I would be happy. The price savings (almost 13k) can cover a lot of work in between



Any Saab 9-7's floating around? If you could score a good deal under $30k for one of those somehow it may be pretty sweet.


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## bigbog (Feb 3, 2012)

hammer said:


> Beating up and comparing dealers works well when you want what they have on the lot...but if you have a specific option set then it does get harder.  When we bought our Jeep we wanted the tow package, a specific trim level, and a few specific colors...which made finding the right vehicle tricky.  We even tried to use the Zag buying service, but the participating dealers could not be bothered to work with us so we just haggled over a vehicle with another dealer.  Worked out OK in the end but I know we didn't get the "best" price.
> 
> Lots more choice out there...the Korean and US automakers have stepped up their game and the Japanese automakers have been resting on their laurels a bit much, so it's not as much of a no-brainer to look at or get a Japanese make vehicle as it was a few years ago.



Don't worry about applying mods later, stock materials/components for SUVs/4wds are the same as for computers = the cheapest for the money.  Dealers don't want to hear about part quality, just price.


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## hammer (Feb 3, 2012)

bigbog said:


> Don't worry about applying mods later, stock materials/components for SUVs/4wds are the same as for computers = the cheapest for the money.  Dealers don't want to hear about part quality, just price.


Think our biggest problems were that we didn't want a black, white, or silver vehicle and that we wanted the tow package (not just a hitch) and we wanted the touch screen audio system because it included the back up camera (which has been almost indispensable for backing up to the camper).  Adding any of those after purchase would have been cost prohibitive.

I would admit that if you want the lowest cost it's best to be flexible about colors and options.


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 3, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Don't get 1996 honda accord not the best car to drive to Plattekill a lot


I bet it would have been better to drive to VT.


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## o3jeff (Feb 3, 2012)

Nick said:


> I'm having a tough time right now.... I can get a brand new 2011 Saab 9-3 for $21k. That seems ridiculous to me.



Where are you going to put 2 dogs, gear, a wife and a child in there?


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## ScottySkis (Feb 3, 2012)

ALLSKIING said:


> I bet it would have been better to drive to VT.


Well driving it the ball bearings broken is not good but ya south vt is easier drive


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Where are you going to put 2 dogs, gear, a wife and a child in there?



That woudl jsut be my car for work / etc. if we were going somewhere as a huge family we would pile in the Edge or whatever SUV style vehicle we end up getting :lol:


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

I will admit US cars have made huge strides since the early 2000's. I would almost never have considered a ford before.


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## Geoff (Feb 5, 2012)

It totally baffles me why people are still buying massive cars with crap fuel economy.  When gasoline shoots up to $6.00/gallon, those same people are going to be posting here crying that they're going broke buying fuel and that the resale value of their massive cars has cratered.


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## Nick (Feb 5, 2012)

It's all what you can afford. If we get an SUV it won't be used for daily driving, my car would be used to take me back and forth to work. The SUV would be for a) camping b) skiing c) whenever we all have to pile in together somewhere. but th emajority of miles would be on my personal Saab which gets 32mpg


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## o3jeff (Feb 8, 2012)

Did you buy anything yet?


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## Nick (Feb 8, 2012)

No, I'm just starting my search. I am planning on buying in about 2 month's time. 

My lumbar support in my car broke this morning when I got into it :lol: I sit in the seat and CRACK i heard it behind me / felt it just collapse. Not that it's  critical but one of those signs that things are starting to go :lol:


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## drjeff (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> It totally baffles me why people are still buying massive cars with crap fuel economy.  When gasoline shoots up to $6.00/gallon, those same people are going to be posting here crying that they're going broke buying fuel and that the resale value of their massive cars has cratered.



Its called families with 2 to 4 kids, 2 dogs and a bunch of the kids friends to tote around from school to the soccer field to friends houses and then the associated back packs and gear bags that accompany each kid. And family trips, often anything smaller than a 10 foot uhaul doesn't have enough space when you factor in ski gear in the winter and bikes in the summer ;-)

As soon as my kids are in college, me and my wife will totally downsize our vehicles, probably down to 1 mid sized suv and a sedan or two. Until then, the amount of time I say to myself "I wish I had a smaller, more fuel efficient car" is way less than I say to myself "thank god for all the space in my full sized SUV"


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## hammer (Feb 8, 2012)

drjeff said:


> As soon as my kids are in college, me and my wife will totally downsize our vehicles, probably down to 1 mid sized suv and a sedan or two. Until then, the amount of time I say to myself "I wish I had a smaller, more fuel efficient car" is way less than I say to myself "thank god for all the space in my full sized SUV"


This is where we are at, except we went with a less fuel-efficient SUV for the towing capabilities.  Was nice to not "need" a 3rd row.

I also wanted a sportier sedan so we didn't look for a 30+MPG model.  Want to have something nicer to drive on those 20+ mile commutes even if I take a fuel cost hit.


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## drjeff (Feb 8, 2012)

hammer said:


> This is where we are at, except we went with a less fuel-efficient SUV for the towing capabilities.  Was nice to not "need" a 3rd row.
> 
> I also wanted a sportier sedan so we didn't look for a 30+MPG model.  Want to have something nicer to drive on those 20+ mile commutes even if I take a fuel cost hit.



I will say that last night I really did enjoy driving around a bit in the 2012 Audi A4 loaner the dealership gave her since they weren't able to get a part in on time yesterday for her Q7 and have the service done for when she needed it. Brought back flashbacks of almost 10 years ago before we had kids and we had an A4, and how much fun that car can be to drive on a winding road!


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Its called families with 2 to 4 kids, 2 dogs and a bunch of the kids friends to tote around from school to the soccer field to friends houses and then the associated back packs and gear bags that accompany each kid. And family trips, often anything smaller than a 10 foot uhaul doesn't have enough space when you factor in ski gear in the winter and bikes in the summer ;-)
> 
> As soon as my kids are in college, me and my wife will totally downsize our vehicles, probably down to 1 mid sized suv and a sedan or two. Until then, the amount of time I say to myself "I wish I had a smaller, more fuel efficient car" is way less than I say to myself "thank god for all the space in my full sized SUV"



The difference is that you're at an income level where you simply don't care about fuel economy and you don't seem to care at all about your carbon footprint.   You've structured your life so you have a big daily commute and a significant every-weekend drive.   I don't get the whole "I have to own two huge dogs, thus I need a massive SUV" thing.   You own a vacation home with a washing machine.   You could trivially put your wife and two rug rats in a 40+ mpg diesel small station wagon with snow tires.


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## Puck it (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The difference is that you're at an income level where you simply don't care about fuel economy and you don't seem to care at all about your carbon footprint. You've structured your life so you have a big daily commute and a significant every-weekend drive. I don't get the whole "I have to own two huge dogs, thus I need a massive SUV" thing. You own a vacation home with a washing machine. You could trivially put your wife and two rug rats in a 40+ mpg diesel small station wagon with snow tires.


 
Wow, an anrgy elf.  It is America last time I looked at my passport. Free to buy what you want!!!  If he wants a big SUV, it is his perogative and no one should judge each other.


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## Nick (Feb 8, 2012)

Ironically the mileage of a car really doesn't matter when it comes to carbon footprint. It's how far you drive it and how often, right? 

A Prius driver that puts 600 miles a week on a car will more of an impact than a Ford Edge that is driven 250 miles a week*

*Although if you are stuck on a given distance then it matters, i.e. same person switching cars would matter


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## drjeff (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The difference is that you're at an income level where you simply don't care about fuel economy and you don't seem to care at all about your carbon footprint.   You've structured your life so you have a big daily commute and a significant every-weekend drive.   I don't get the whole "I have to own two huge dogs, thus I need a massive SUV" thing.   You own a vacation home with a washing machine.   You could trivially put your wife and two rug rats in a 40+ mpg diesel small station wagon with snow tires.



If you had a couple of kids who are active in sports and other school events more nights a week than they aren't almost year round, it might make more sense to you. Otherwise, I really wouldn't expect it to make too much sense to you in your situation. As for the washing machine thing in the vacation home, week in and week out the only clothes that travel with me are the ones i'm wearing on the way up/back. Kid clothes, since they keep out growing stuff very quickly these days are a different story   And then there always the added space benefit of being able to put a kid in SEPARATE rows of seats if they're driving each other, and hence often the adults in the car too, CRAZY!

If I was a 50 something guy without kids and/or large pets and in a financial situation where I wasn't really worried about the cost of a vehicle either, what's in my garage would be different than it currently is. Different situations one is in a majority of the time can call for different choices. Right? Wrong? I guess that's all from the perspective of the primary user in each circumstance


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2012)

Puck it said:


> Wow, an anrgy elf.  It is America last time I looked at my passport. Free to buy what you want!!!  If he wants a big SUV, it is his perogative and no one should judge each other.



Not really.   Just because Dr Jeff is high income doesn't give him the right to pollute my water supply, pollute the air I breathe, or spew carbon and sulfur into the atmosphere to increase global warming.   This is not 1780 where the population of the United States was a few million and most of the country was open rural space.


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## Nick (Feb 8, 2012)

Shouldn't we complain about all high mileage drivers then regardless of their chosen vehicles?

A parked Hummer puts out less emissions than a running Prius


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## wa-loaf (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Not really.   Just because Dr Jeff is high income doesn't give him the right to pollute my water supply, pollute the air I breathe, or spew carbon and sulfur into the atmosphere to increase global warming.   This is not 1780 where the population of the United States was a few million and most of the country was open rural space.



Ban cars! Trains for everyone!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 8, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If you had a couple of kids who are active in sports and other school events more nights a week than they aren't almost year round, it might make more sense to you. Otherwise, I really wouldn't expect it to make too much sense to you in your situation. As for the washing machine thing in the vacation home, week in and week out the only clothes that travel with me are the ones i'm wearing on the way up/back. Kid clothes, since they keep out growing stuff very quickly these days are a different story   And then there always the added space benefit of being able to put a kid in SEPARATE rows of seats if they're driving each other, and hence often the adults in the car too, CRAZY!
> 
> If I was a 50 something guy without kids and/or large pets and in a financial situation where I wasn't really worried about the cost of a vehicle either, what's in my garage would be different than it currently is. Different situations one is in a majority of the time can call for different choices. Right? Wrong?* I guess that's all from the perspective of the primary user in each circumstance*



In bold is what I think is important.  It's up to the user. 

Now, you have done a lot of justifying your "need" for a big SUV.  It's a want thing really.  My childhood and family income bracket was probably fairly similar to the life you live drjeff.  Family of four commuting to Okemo from the Boston suburbs every single weekend in mid-sized sedans with all season tires.  Occasionally a friend would come along, and we'd sit three abreast in the back.  We never had all wheel drive or even snow tires and made the commute safely for many years. 

Really the only difference between my family and yours was the lack of dogs.  For the life of me, I can't understand why any skier would have a dog unless they had a non-skiing spouse willing to be the caregiver.  I had a yellow lab for 9 years in my 20s.  Loved him dearly, but it was like having a child.....that didn't ski.  Unlikely I get a dog again until I hang up the skis. 

But that was my folks preference.  They actually got a SUV when I went off to college and my brother was long gone when they really didn't have a need for extra space and hated the thing.  Been back in sedans ever since.

Ultimately, most peoples vehicle choices are based more upon "wants" than "needs"


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## hammer (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Not really.   Just because Dr Jeff is high income doesn't give him the right to pollute my water supply, pollute the air I breathe, or spew carbon and sulfur into the atmosphere to increase global warming.   This is not 1780 where the population of the United States was a few million and most of the country was open rural space.


IMO people driving older less fuel-efficient and more polluting cars can do as much if not more damage than the "high income" person who owns a relatively new SUV or CUV.  If you don't believe me than why does CA have a buyback program?

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/avrp/avrp.htm

Yet we heap praise on people who can keep their 10+ YO, 200K+ mile cars on the road...

Just  a bit...


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## Puck it (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Not really. Just because Dr Jeff is high income doesn't give him the right to pollute my water supply, pollute the air I breathe, or spew carbon and sulfur into the atmosphere to increase global warming. This is not 1780 where the population of the United States was a few million and most of the country was open rural space.


 

And it is up to him! Not you or someone else.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Not really.   Just because Dr Jeff is high income doesn't give him the right to pollute my water supply, pollute the air I breathe, or spew carbon and sulfur into the atmosphere to increase global warming.   This is not 1780 where the population of the United States was a few million and most of the country was open rural space.



The pollution put out by modern cars is minimal these days. Mileage definitely plays a role. Why do you drive a GTI that takes a pretty good hit on mileage and requires premium fuel? Shouldn't you just be happy with the basic Golf for your needs or at least have a diesel? I always took you as kind of a libertarian type.


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## Cheese (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> The difference is that you're at an income level where you simply don't care about fuel economy and you don't seem to care at all about your carbon footprint.



Do you have kids?

If so, driving a fuel efficient car isn't going to make up for the damage you have already done and will continue to do to this planet simply by selfishly increasing the population.  A single child has their own carbon footprint, aids in overfilling our landfills and consumes our precious natural resources.  This multiplies with each child you brought into the world and increases exponentially if your children have children of their own.  Recycling newspapers, glass and plastic while driving a fuel efficient vehicle will never offset the damage to our planet caused by family (population) growth.

Sorry, people that increase population then take a pro environmental stance seem rather hypocritical to me.


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## o3jeff (Feb 8, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> The pollution put out by modern cars is minimal these days. Mileage definitely plays a role. Why do you drive a GTI that takes a pretty good hit on mileage and requires premium fuel? Shouldn't you just be happy with the basic Golf for your needs or at least have a diesel? I always took you as kind of a libertarian type.



Doesn't he also have a suv with a v-8 that he drives to the mountain since he can't drive the GTI with ski boots on that probably never gets to operating temp which I think puts out more emissions then.


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## Warp Daddy (Feb 8, 2012)

Oh Damn do we NEED SNOW NOW -  too many bitching, griping and harping threads as of late -- hmm sounds almost menopausal

What folks drive is up to them -- deal with it !

BTW i drive 2 economy cars a Saab Sport combi and a corolla  BUT  could afford a gas hogggggg but i choose to drive stuff that gets me over 30 mpg ---- must be the economist in me 

PULEEZE ULLR  deliver this so we can all just shaddup n'ski !!!!!!!!


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## Black Phantom (Feb 8, 2012)

How well do Smart cars perform in snow?


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## o3jeff (Feb 8, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> How well do Smart cars perform in snow?



With 2 or 4 snow tires?


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## Black Phantom (Feb 8, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> With 2 or 4 snow tires?



Will snow tires fit?  Let's go with 4 for sake of argument.

I thought that skinny tires were good in the snow.


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## Puck it (Feb 8, 2012)

Smart cars get crappy gas mileage for their size. BTW.


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## HD333 (Feb 8, 2012)

drjeff said:


> If you had a couple of kids who are active in sports and other school events more nights a week than they aren't almost year round, it might make more sense to you. Otherwise, I really wouldn't expect it to make too much sense to you in your situation. As for the washing machine thing in the vacation home, week in and week out the only clothes that travel with me are the ones i'm wearing on the way up/back. Kid clothes, since they keep out growing stuff very quickly these days are a different story   And then there always the added space benefit of being able to put a kid in SEPARATE rows of seats if they're driving each other, and hence often the adults in the car too, CRAZY!
> 
> If I was a 50 something guy without kids and/or large pets and in a financial situation where I wasn't really worried about the cost of a vehicle either, what's in my garage would be different than it currently is. Different situations one is in a majority of the time can call for different choices. Right? Wrong? I guess that's all from the perspective of the primary user in each circumstance


I agree that most hulking SUV's satisfy a want more than a need. But what is wrong with that? Do we need a Tahoe,  no, but it sure makes the weekly 2 hr drive a lot more comfortable for everyone, even the dog.
I am sure it will be useful once the travel soccer team starts up as well, I am no scientist but I assume 1 vehicle with 7 or 8 people has a smaller carbon footprint than 2 vehicles with 4 people in them.
When kids are gone and it is just me and the misses I can guarantee we will not be driving a Canyonaro or whatever the biggest of the big SUVs is at the time.


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## Puck it (Feb 8, 2012)

And they look dumb!!!!!


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## Black Phantom (Feb 8, 2012)

I prefer to drive a golf cart.


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## Glenn (Feb 8, 2012)

How about those people who ski? Bunch of rich ____. All that juice the lifts use...water for snowmaking, power for snowmaking, power for making french fries lighting the lodge, heating the lodge, printing trail maps, lift tickets, people who have multiple pairs of skis. It's nuts. You can have just as much fun sitting inside, reading a book by candlelight. 

www.taxpayersformygroundwater.com

www.daneagandoesnthaveacarbonfootprint/bestskierever.org


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## wa-loaf (Feb 8, 2012)

Puck it said:


> And they look dumb!!!!!



These things were designed for the cities of Europe where they are a great fit. Don't really belong on the highways around here and all the safety equipment they get loaded up with for the US really puts a hit on fuel efficiency and price.


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## Nick (Feb 8, 2012)

You can "parallel park" them straight in, which is kinda cool. :lol:


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> The pollution put out by modern cars is minimal these days. Mileage definitely plays a role. Why do you drive a GTI that takes a pretty good hit on mileage and requires premium fuel? Shouldn't you just be happy with the basic Golf for your needs or at least have a diesel? I always took you as kind of a libertarian type.



My 2007 GTI gets better fuel economy than a 2007 5-cylinder Golf.    Small 4 cylinder turbocharged engines have a weight and friction advantage over bigger conventionally aspirated engines.   93 octane fuel has less energy per gallon than 87 octane and has a slightly lower carbon footprint per gallon.  87 octane is more volatile and causes detonation problems in high compression engines.   The price difference at the pump has more to do with economy of scale than production costs.   87 octane outsells 93 octane by something like 11 to 1.

I don't drive a vanilla Golf because it's a dog.   No Xenon headlights.  No sport suspension.   No leather Recaros.  No DSG transmission.   I won't buy the diesel for the same reason.   It doesn't have the option package I want.

I used to be a libertarian years ago until I figured out that libertarian is just secret code for self-centered.  I believe in things like zoning, public transportation, equal access public education, anti-sprawl laws, and a reasonable safety net.


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## riverc0il (Feb 8, 2012)

Nick said:


> Ironically the mileage of a car really doesn't matter when it comes to carbon footprint. It's how far you drive it and how often, right?
> 
> A Prius driver that puts 600 miles a week on a car will more of an impact than a Ford Edge that is driven 250 miles a week*
> 
> *Although if you are stuck on a given distance then it matters, i.e. same person switching cars would matter


Huh? What type of apples and oranges argument are you trying to make here? Yes, a Prius driving 600 miles a week will likely burn more gas than a Ford Edge driving 250 miles a week. But for most people, which car you drive isn't an either/or proposition. You get to pick one car. Therefore, a higher MPG car uses less fuel because the mileage you will drive is a constant (unless for some strange reason you adjust what you do based on your car's MPG which is putting the cart before the horse and just plain silly). 

There are a few honest to goodness full size cross overs on the market that get 30 MPG highway-ish. Then again, there are still sub-2o MPG behemoths. Get what fits your needs and lifestyle. But Geoff has a point (even if being somewhat offensive about it, LOL) in that many people buy far more car than they truly need even to be comfortable.


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## Geoff (Feb 9, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> There are a few honest to goodness full size cross overs on the market that get 30 MPG highway-ish. Then again, there are still sub-2o MPG behemoths. Get what fits your needs and lifestyle. But Geoff has a point (even if being somewhat offensive about it, LOL) in that many people buy far more car than they truly need even to be comfortable.



When you're kinda-sorta trolling, then yeah, it's somewhat offensive.

What full size crossover gets 30 mpg on the highway?   To qualify, it needs to have some kind of 4wd/AWD system, burn gasoline, and fit four 6 foot adults.


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## Nick (Feb 9, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Huh? What type of apples and oranges argument are you trying to make here? Yes, a Prius driving 600 miles a week will likely burn more gas than a Ford Edge driving 250 miles a week. But for most people, which car you drive isn't an either/or proposition. You get to pick one car. Therefore, a higher MPG car uses less fuel because the mileage you will drive is a constant (unless for some strange reason you adjust what you do based on your car's MPG which is putting the cart before the horse and just plain silly).
> 
> There are a few honest to goodness full size cross overs on the market that get 30 MPG highway-ish. Then again, there are still sub-2o MPG behemoths. Get what fits your needs and lifestyle. But Geoff has a point (even if being somewhat offensive about it, LOL) in that many people buy far more car than they truly need even to be comfortable.



I agree Geoff has a point, I'm just saying it's not really fair to criticize someone based on their car choice alone. 

If I work 2 minutes from my house and drive a Hummer every day, and you work 40 miles from your house and drive a Prius, who is contributing less to pollution? Me with the Hummer. But if the two cars were driving next to each other down the road, everyone would point fingers at the driver of the Hummer as being a d-bag unconcerned with the environment while the Prius driver would be the creme dela creme model citizen. Even though the net effect on the environment is worse. 

That's all I'm pointing out.... is that it's not just what you drive but how and where you drive. At the end of the day, the environment doesn't care about what caused emissions or where they came from, only the quantity of overall emissions matters.


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## riverc0il (Feb 9, 2012)

Geoff said:


> When you're kinda-sorta trolling, then yeah, it's somewhat offensive.
> 
> What full size crossover gets 30 mpg on the highway?   To qualify, it needs to have some kind of 4wd/AWD system, burn gasoline, and fit four 6 foot adults.


Subaru Outback gets 30mpg highway.

I don't know why you needed to throw in the AWD, that wasn't what I wrote so you are changing the argument. There are a few crossovers that get 30MPG highway. Some are hybrids.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 10, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Subaru Outback gets 30mpg highway.
> 
> I don't know why you needed to throw in the AWD, that wasn't what I wrote so you are changing the argument. There are a few crossovers that get 30MPG highway. Some are hybrids.



27-28mpg and in real world it's more like 25.


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## riverc0il (Feb 10, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> 27-28mpg and in real world it's more like 25.


Oops, I over stated. Their web site says 29.


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## hammer (Feb 10, 2012)

Think it's also a stretch to call a Subaru Outback a full size CUV...


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## Bumpsis (Feb 12, 2012)

Geoff's point is well taken and really true. There is a lot of people who really don't take under considertaion that one's personal automotive choice does have a significant impact on one's personal carbon footprint. And yes it matters.

SUVs, due to regulations that were heavily influenced by the auto idustry are allowed to be 3-4 times more dirty (emissions) than sedans. 
Next time you're parking at your ski area, just take a look around the lot. It's probbaly about 60% SUVs and pickups. It's interesting that if you go to a XC ski area, that percentage drops by quite a bit - just my casual observation.

Yes, it's great to have the convenience of all that room that comes with with a big SUV, but outside the ski season,  for most of the time you're pushing a 5000 lb smoke stack with a lousy milage.

I also think that the auto industry simply doesn't offer enough choices to the consumer in the US. I have a VW Passat with a roof box and our family of 4 can fit into it just fine even for a week long ski trip. OK, so we don't have a dog, although I could fit one too. It's a 2002 and I probably will be looking to replace it in a couple of years, yet I don't see too many choices. 

I happen to really like the idea of station wagons (roomy, practical, good milage and handle well while easy on the emissions), yet there are very few choices of this type on the market. 

The auto industry poisoned the idea of a station wagon by a very hard marketing  push to make the SUV the main consumer choice for a family hauler because the profits on a truck based SUV were just so much higher. It's all about money. What was sacrificed for that: safety and the environment.


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## Puck it (Feb 12, 2012)

Bumpsis said:


> Geoff's point is well taken and really true. There is a lot of people who really don't take under considertaion that one's personal automotive choice does have a significant impact on one's personal carbon footprint. And yes it matters.
> 
> SUVs, due to regulations that were heavily influenced by the auto idustry are allowed to be 3-4 times more dirty (emissions) than sedans.
> Next time you're parking at your ski area, just take a look around the lot. It's probbaly about 60% SUVs and pickups. It's interesting that if you go to a XC ski area, that percentage drops by quite a bit - just my casual observation.
> ...



This gets old.  Really it does.


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## riverc0il (Feb 12, 2012)

Bumpsis said:


> I happen to really like the idea of station wagons (roomy, practical, good milage and handle well while easy on the emissions), yet there are very few choices of this type on the market.


VW SportWagen TDI. 

Your 2002 Passet is hardly super fuel efficient. At 28 MPG, there are crossovers that get just as good MPG and full on SUVs that get not that much less. If you are going to grind an ax against gas guzzlers, you should step your own auto choice up a bit. Especially now that there are quite a few large sedans and people haulers in the over 35 MPG range (2013 Mazda CX5 hits 35 highway with the manual, wow. 31 MPG auto with AWD, and Mazda's are super fun). 

We are all in a glass house when it comes to emissions due to our skiing habit (as Nick eluded to). I don't think that excuses us from doing our best to minimize our personal impact. It definitely is a difficult decision to figure out that balance. My position is eventually fuel prices will force most people to change. It already happened once when gas prices first hit $3+. It'll happen again whenever the next 1-2 dollar spike happens.


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## Nick (Feb 12, 2012)

Exactly ... until we invent a teleporter :lol:


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