# Big Burke announcement



## the original trailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

I am starting this thread in anticipation of the big Burke announcements (for its future) scheduled for Thursday afternoon with a prediction - you will be shocked!


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## mister moose (Sep 26, 2012)

the original trailboss said:


> I am starting this thread in anticipation of the big Burke announcements (for its future) scheduled for Thursday afternoon with a prediction - you will be shocked!



Please change the title of this thread to 

"Big Burke announcement Tease".


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## nelsapbm (Sep 26, 2012)

WCAX is reporting its a hotel. Not all that surprised. Unless there is more that they don't know yet?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

http://www.wcax.com/story/19646867/500m-project-will-bring-thousands-of-jobs-to-northeast-kingdom

$500 million of new projects for the NEK.  Big deals going on I guess....Cessna and other manufacturers lining up apparently.  

Amazing that Bill Stenger has done more for the NEK than many other folks.....


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## Nick (Sep 26, 2012)

Cessna? The airplane company? Have they had any ops in VT before?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

Nick said:


> Cessna? The airplane company? Have they had any ops in VT before?



Nope.  Sounds like a new manufacturing facility.


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## farlep99 (Sep 27, 2012)

Finally I may have a place to land my Cessna to ski the NEK!  phew!


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## nelsapbm (Sep 27, 2012)

From Facebook: 
[h=5]News7/NewsLINC - Lyndon State College
[/h][h=5]From  Reporter Kevin Lessard:  In a press release handed out at the press  conference at Jay Peak this morning it states that there will be a $108  million dollar investment made at Burke Mountain starting in 2013.  They  plan on building four lodge facilities.  We'll bring you more details  as we know them!




[/h]


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## nelsapbm (Sep 27, 2012)

Apparently the Cessna involvement will be a cold weather flight school at the Coventry Airport.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 27, 2012)

nelsapbm said:


> From Facebook:
> *News7/NewsLINC - Lyndon State College
> *
> 
> *From  Reporter Kevin Lessard:  In a press release handed out at the press  conference at Jay Peak this morning it states that there will be a $108  million dollar investment made at Burke Mountain starting in 2013.  They  plan on building four lodge facilities.  We'll bring you more details  as we know them!*



Interesting. I wonder if that will mean an expansion for the base lodge (which tends to get rather crowded), and a new Mid-Lodge. Then two hotels (one at mid-Burke and one near the base lodge)?


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## nelsapbm (Sep 27, 2012)

More from FB: 
Vermont's Northland Journal Jay  Peak to be expanded into West Bowl. More trails, a new village in the  next couple years. A 600 bed hotel is being built where the Waterfront  Plaza is today.
15 minutes ago · Like · 2


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 27, 2012)

New thread title...

"How do you spend $500,000,000 Dollars"


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## nelsapbm (Sep 27, 2012)

[h=5]News7/NewsLINC - Lyndon State College
[/h][h=5]Bill Stenger has announced "4 new rustic, beautiful lodges that will hold 1,250 people" to be built on Burke Mountain.

[/h]


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

nelsapbm said:


> From Facebook:
> *News7/NewsLINC - Lyndon State College
> *
> 
> ...



4 "rustic" lodges.  I don't think they mean Mid-Burke lodge rustic either.....

$108 mill for Burke alone.  Wow.  Never in my wildest dreams.  That is crazy.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

To put this in perspective: the town of Lyndon has 6,000 people or so total.  Bed base at Burke would be at almost 25% of the town of Lyndon...unless it is 1,250 per building.


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## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

I used to be in construction project management. For perspective, we built a 456 unit apartment building in downtown Boston. That cost $95 mil.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

More from the Cal Rec.  

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=84687

Cessna wants to have a cold weather flight school at the airport.  

And I see that Bill only has one tie.  If this goes through I say we chip in and get him a Trailboss Ski Tie from the NE Ski Museum.


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## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

Not going to lie, but this seems a bit to big for their britches. Great thing for the NEK, but I don't see this ending as good as they imply. 

108 million at Burke? That seems like a lot of money for a C level mountain. Thats more than Killington is worth. We all know which one is a better investment. 

Those lodges are going to have pitiful occupancy.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 27, 2012)

On a semi-related note Burke submitted an Act 250 application for 4 new glade trails. For the mostpart these really aren't already existing unmarked glades that are simply being added to the trailmap.

Glade #1: Essentially an extension of Birches after crossing the CCC road. Dumps out of the woods at the top of the Shreburne Quad.






Glade #2: In the woods behind the pump house between Lower Bear Den (says Fox's Folly on the map but that is wrong) and Lower Willoughby.





Glade #3: Parallels skiers left of Lower Dougs Drop.





Glade #4:  Obvious continuation of Little Chief after crossing the CCC road.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

It does seem ambitious.  I would imagine that Stenger and Company have done their research though.


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## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> It does seem ambitious.  I would imagine that Stenger and Company have done their research though.



He hasn't been proven wrong yet. 

But while through a different program, this kinda sorta feels like ASC before it imploded. That is some serious coin to throw at a mountain that does under 100k skier visits.


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## Zand (Sep 27, 2012)

Too bad they can't work on St. Johnsbury too... now it's really gonna be the sh*thole of the NEK lol.


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## Smellytele (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> He hasn't been proven wrong yet.
> 
> But while through a different program, this kinda sorta feels like ASC before it imploded. That is some serious coin to throw at a mountain that does under 100k skier visits.



The difference being ASC was leveraged and this is free money from people wanting to live in the country.


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## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> The difference being ASC was leveraged and this is free money from people wanting to live in the country.



Theres a bit more to it than that, but as I said previously, its a different animal for sure. 

Anyone know how long those 10 jobs per 500k need to be for? Or can they be temporary like construction workers? They need 1000 jobs for the 500 million they mention.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> He hasn't been proven wrong yet.
> 
> But while through a different program, this kinda sorta feels like ASC before it imploded. That is some serious coin to throw at a mountain that does under 100k skier visits.



I'm not sure if it is like ASC.  

And when you factor in the increasing bike traffic, the number of visitors to Burke is on the rise.  I'd imagine that with the improvements, and some good PR, the numbers of skiers will increase.  They have yet to break the 100k mark.  This year will be a test.  An average ski season, and some good advertising, should give them a sense as to what they can get.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

...and EB-5 money is not free by any means.  Those folks do expect some kind of payout eventually.  It's like any other investment.


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## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not sure if it is like ASC.
> 
> And when you factor in the increasing bike traffic, the number of visitors to Burke is on the rise.  I'd imagine that with the improvements, and some good PR, the numbers of skiers will increase.  They have yet to break the 100k mark.  This year will be a test.  An average ski season, and some good advertising, should give them a sense as to what they can get.





thetrailboss said:


> ...and EB-5 money is not free by any means.  Those folks do expect some kind of payout eventually.  It's like any other investment.



The bike traffic is a good point. That is a rapidly growing segment of the resort business. 

My ASC comparison is more in terms of scale and rapid expansion than debt service.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> The bike traffic is a good point. That is a rapidly growing segment of the resort business.
> 
> My ASC comparison is more in terms of scale and rapid expansion than debt service.



The biking is a good way to round out Burke.  I just wonder if they will have the revenue to run the operation after it is built.  That begins to sound like one of ASC's problems...too big to manage for them.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 27, 2012)

From the latest LSC Newslinc article http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/112-new-developments-across-the-nek:



> Jay Peak just recently acquired Burke Mountain, and their big plans do not stop at snowmaking. Stenger also announced that a 108 million dollar investment (that figure includes snowmaking upgrades) will be made in Burke Mountain; that investment comes in the form of lodging on the mountain. Four new lodge style accomodations will be built in various areas on the mountain. Stenger said the four buildings will be "rustic, beautiful lodges that hold up to 1,250 people." The buildings will be modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge at Jay Peak, the style of the Tram Haus Lodge has a slopside cabin feel that blends with the atmopshere of the mountain. According to the press release two of these buildings will be located just below the mid-Burke detachable quad, a third will be built at the current site of the Mid-Burke Lodge, and the fourth is planned to sit at the base area near the Tamarack Grill. It is anticipated that the work will start in 2013, with a proposed completion by 2015.



So if they are building two hotels in the field below the Mid Burke Express Which is a logical place to build, it sounds like Camber Heights must have been officially wiped off the planning table. I wonder what happens to the several lots that were under contract? The thord building at Mid Burke will be a Lodge. I doubt they will put it exactly where the current Mid-Lodge is but rather shift it toward Lower Dipper like I have shown in my Google Earth renderings. The current position of the mid-lodge is terrible for skier traffic flow coming down to the lift.

A new Hotel at the base lodge, not terribly surprising. There isn't much room directly next to the lodge but there is a pretty good size chunk of land between the Sherburne Quad base and High Meadows Rd that has lots of potential.


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## Masskier (Sep 27, 2012)

Well,  Certainly a big day for the entire NEK and Burke.  Just think, Burke is pretty much permitted and ready to go.  It is almost shovel ready.  This is so important for the local economy.


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## riverc0il (Sep 27, 2012)

Masskier said:


> This is so important for Masskier's properties.




I jest but it is truth. Anyone that got in at Burke should see significant increases in values after this project kicks Burke into high gear. Stenger has gotten more done in a few months than Ginn got done in a few years and never finished.

But this whole "rustic" thing... c'mon. I like Jay's Tram Lodge. But it ain't rustic. :lol:


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## snowmonster (Sep 27, 2012)

Looks like the Jay-Burke combo pass deserves a second look.


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## snoseek (Sep 27, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Looks like the Jay-Burke combo pass deserves a second look.




No kidding right? It's tough to move away from the awesome times in Maine but once your in midwinter you would have no regrets.

I need to spend a summer or two up there, the riding is extra fun, town laid back.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 27, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> Looks like the Jay-Burke combo pass deserves a second look.





snoseek said:


> No kidding right? It's tough to move away from the awesome times in Maine but once your in midwinter you would have no regrets.
> 
> I need to spend a summer or two up there, the riding is extra fun, town laid back.



There's a lot of great things to be said about skiing in Maine.  Boyne does an incredible job investing in the SR/SL product.  They both are great areas and there's a certain vibe and sense of community among the SR and SL crowds that is very attractive.  During the bad seasons, they kill it more than any operator in the east IMO and offer a huge amount of terrain under one pass.  

but, if I were an advanced skier from Boston who has little interest in skiing groomers and was willing to drive 3.5-4.5 hours every weekend to ski; Burke/Jay wins easily.

At the basic level there's Burke and Sunday River both 3.5 hours from Boston.  Burke gets 250 inches of snow a year, the River 150.  Burke is a MUCH easier 3.5 drive.  The there's Jay vs Sugarloaf.  Jay gets 350 inches, Sugarloaf gets 225.  Jay is an exponentially easier 4.5 hour drive from Boston than is Sugarloaf.  

It's no wonder why Stenger is going off with the investment in the area especially considering how he's got 4 million potential customers in metro Montreal that are only 2 hours from Jay and 3 hours from Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

This number may have been been stated before in a different thread but Stenger was actually quoted yesterday as targeting 150,000 skier visits to Burke.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

I have yet to ski the NEK .... most of my trips last year were day trips and the 9 hours driving for 9 hours skiing, particularly given the snow last year, was not happening, but I'm really hoping to make a weekend trip up to visit Jay this year.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

PS: I left the Jay Peak / Burke AZ challenge open a bit longer in case anyone wants to squeak any more questions in to Steve Wright.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> There's a lot of great things to be said about skiing in Maine.  Boyne does an incredible job investing in the SR/SL product.  They both are great areas and there's a certain vibe and sense of community among the SR and SL crowds that is very attractive.  During the bad seasons, they kill it more than any operator in the east IMO and offer a huge amount of terrain under one pass.
> 
> but, if I were an advanced skier from Boston who has little interest in skiing groomers and was willing to drive 3.5-4.5 hours every weekend to ski; Burke/Jay wins easily.
> 
> ...



Like most of us, Im not a casual skier, but the easier drive argument always perplexes me. Maybe its just how Im wired, but 4.5 hours in a car is 4.5 hours in a car, no matter what type of road Im on. 

I also fall into the gearhead category, so thats probably part of it.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

Nick said:


> I have yet to ski the NEK .... most of my trips last year were day trips and the 9 hours driving for 9 hours skiing, particularly given the snow last year, was not happening, but I'm really hoping to make a weekend trip up to visit Jay this year.



Well you're in luck because it is less than a 7 hour round trip from Uxbridge to Burke and back


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like most of us, Im not a casual skier, but the easier drive argument always perplexes me. Maybe its just how Im wired, but 4.5 hours in a car is 4.5 hours in a car, no matter what type of road Im on.



I think they mean interstate driving versus two-lane back roads.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I think they mean interstate driving versus two-lane back roads.



Yeah I got that. Still dont see a difference.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

Mine says 4 hrs, 1 min to Burke and 4 hrs, 48 min to Jay Peak from my doorstep  on Google Maps. 

In my history Google Maps is usually about 10% slower than it really takes me. So a 4 hr drive is really about 30 min faster, 3.5 hrs, so yeah 7 hours sounds about right to Burke. Still a hike for 1 days worth of skiing!!


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

Nick said:


> Mine says 4 hrs, 1 min to Burke and 4 hrs, 48 min to Jay Peak from my doorstep  on Google Maps.
> 
> In my history Google Maps is usually about 10% slower than it really takes me. So a 4 hr drive is really about 30 min faster, 3.5 hrs, so yeah 7 hours sounds about right to Burke. Still a hike for 1 days worth of skiing!!



Im seriously contemplating buying a spread in the NEK and putting a yurt on it. Could be done for like 20k if you did it right.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah I got that. Still dont see a difference.



One is theoretically easier than the other (no stop lights, school zones, neighborhoods, speed zones, intersections, etc).


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

Nick said:


> Mine says 4 hrs, 1 min to Burke and 4 hrs, 48 min to Jay Peak from my doorstep on Google Maps.
> 
> In my history Google Maps is usually about 10% slower than it really takes me. So a 4 hr drive is really about 30 min faster, 3.5 hrs, so yeah 7 hours sounds about right to Burke. Still a hike for 1 days worth of skiing!!



Right, but Stenger wants you to come up and spend the weekend.  

And 150k is a reasonable target for skier days, but still a big leap considering that they are somewhere between 75 and 90k.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

Cal Rec on the overall project:  

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=84733

They have a Burke specific article behind their paywall.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Cal Rec on the overall project:
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=84733
> 
> They have a Burke specific article behind their paywall.



According to that Burke specific article, they haven't determined exact build siting yet but to expect permits to be submitted this Fall.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

No discussion of the new glades, eh?


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2012)

I wish they would spend some of that 108 mil on a lift on the left side of the mountain over near the power line


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

Let them build the hotel(s) first and then they will probably look at moving the Willougby Quad into East Bowl.


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## xwhaler (Sep 28, 2012)

Burke is really nice---spent a wknd there last season---everyone owes it to themselves to get up there. Classic New England skiing with a great vibe...let's just hope all this development doesn't change things for the worse. I realize its necessary development to survive but hopefully we dont see extensive trail widening to accomodate the increase in skier visits.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

From where I sit, the priorities for Burke right now would be (1) snowmaking, (2) lodging, (3) Mid-Burke lodge situation. 

Of course the priority of all priorities is marketing. I thought that their "Judge" pass promotion, and the web site that they made to promote the Jay/Burke passes, was downright strange and made no sense to me.  This is the site:  http://www.greatbigkingdom.com/

Maybe I'm not in the loop, but for a slick PR machine that Jay has I was really surprised that was what was rolled out.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah I got that. Still dont see a difference.



The difference is really that I'd much prefer driving at my own pace on a highway for 3.5 hours than have to deal with slowing down to 25 miles per hour in town villages every 10-15 miles or get caught behind some slowpoke on a State Highway.  Then there's also the speed trap factor in those small impoverished Maine towns where the local police try and justify their jobs through ticket revenue.  I'd rather just set the cruise control to 75 and go.


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## snowmonster (Sep 28, 2012)

snoseek said:


> No kidding right? It's tough to move away from the awesome times in Maine but once your in midwinter you would have no regrets.



From my front door, SL & Jay and SR & Burke are equidistant. If it weren't for Loon providing a quick hit on 93, driving-wise, the Boyne Pass and the Jay-Burke Pass are the same. Then, of course, there's the SR vibe, the friends and the way management treats you. It's hard to explain this to non-SR skiers but there's something in the water in that place that makes you feel good. Friendly folks and staff that really take care of you. I've come close several times to ditching the Boyne pass but decide to re-up simply because I'll miss the good folks at Barker and the way Dana and Steve go out of their way to make you feel like you belong. I visited SR only thrice last year but every time I went back, it felt like going back to high school.




thetrailboss said:


> One is theoretically easier than the other (no stop lights, school zones, neighborhoods, speed zones, intersections, etc).



I'll add that interstate usually get better plowing.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The difference is really that I'd much prefer driving at my own pace on a highway for 3.5 hours than have to deal with slowing down to 25 miles per hour in town villages every 10-15 miles or get caught behind some slowpoke on a State Highway.  Then there's also the speed trap factor in those small impoverished Maine towns where the local police try and justify their jobs through ticket revenue.  I'd rather just set the cruise control to 75 and go.



Like I said Im a gearhead. I look forward to heel/toe downshifts. So thats most likely it. 

I still cant get over putting 108 million into a mountain like Burke. You are never going to see that money back.


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## x10003q (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like I said Im a gearhead. I look forward to heel/toe downshifts. So thats most likely it.
> 
> I still cant get over putting 108 million into a mountain like Burke. You are never going to see that money back.



They will get the return and more. I'm a gearhead also but on a Friday night in the dark after a full day at work and 2 kids in the back seat I am not in the mood to be "heel and toeing" it in the family cruiser. I want to get on the highway, set the cruise, get off the highway and be at my lodge in less than 1/2 an hour. Burke fits the bill. 

The new HSQ makes Burke visable to a whole new group of skiers. Add in the Jay marketing machine and they will be at 150k visits in no time.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I still cant get over putting 108 million into a mountain like Burke. You are never going to see that money back.



The Burke of old, no. But we're not seeing what Bill Stenger is seeing. He is probably the best person to try to make it go. And he has some things in his favor that previous folks didn't. The first being the new lifts and second the wildly popular biking. Building a place for folks to stay will bring more folks in. The lodging and campgrounds, on most weekends, are all booked in the summer now.  Throw up some decent lodging and more folks will come and try it.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 28, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> The Burke of old, no. But we're not seeing what Bill Stenger is seeing. He is probably the best person to try to make it go. And he has some things in his favor that previous folks didn't. The first being the new lifts and second the wildly popular biking. Building a place for folks to stay will bring more folks in. The lodging and campgrounds, on most weekends, are all booked in the summer now.  Throw up some decent lodging and more folks will come and try it.



It will be interesting to seewhat happens with the campground. Currently it is often sold out way in advance on weekends and the restroom/shower facility is way over taxed by the number of people staying there. I really think they should expand it to the other side of the toll road out into the field above the Old Cutter Inn.
However, with the building of these new lodges, will Burke Mtn try to get mountain bikers to occupy the rooms rather than Lean-Tos? I know a lot of MTBers like the camping aspect of a trip to the KT's. A campground has pretty low overhead compared to a lodge and it is a lot easier to clean after the dirty/muddy MTBers leave at the end of the weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> It will be interesting to seewhat happens with the campground. Currently it is often sold out way in advance on weekends and the restroom/shower facility is way over taxed by the number of people staying there. I really think they should expand it to the other side of the toll road out into the field above the Old Cutter Inn.
> However, with the building of these new lodges, will Burke Mtn try to get mountain bikers to occupy the rooms rather than Lean-Tos? I know a lot of MTBers like the camping aspect of a trip to the KT's. A campground has pretty low overhead compared to a lodge and it is a lot easier to clean after the dirty/muddy MTBers leave at the end of the weekend.



Haven't been by the campground in a while, but I recall it was in pretty sad shape. They need some new facilities, especially since it is sold out. I think that is a state thing...run by Burke for them. Maybe I'm completely off. 

And yes, I think they want the bikers and skiers to camp out at the new "rustic" lodging...complete with satellite TV I imagine. Decent lodging is in sore need at the mountain. My folks, who were in Lyndon, said that they worry that local B&B's will suffer and I doubt that. Folks who go to B&B's aren't going to stay at the Tram House II, III, IV, or V at Burke. And bringing more folks to Burke will get these other local places more exposure. So go stay at Burke once and then see an ad for the Wildflower, say, and go try that. Plus the average family of four is not going to want a Wildflower experience...they want arcades, satellite TV, pool, etc.'

Again, this is not the Burke from when I was a kid...which was a shut up place in the summer with little or nothing going on. The bike traffic makes the off-season almost busier than winter. When we went up to the Tamarack on a Sunday back in July for dinner my Dawn Patrol friends, they were sold out of many items....sold out on a weekend in July. This was an average summer weekend without any big events and they were out of food and some beer. That NEVER happened before--when they were open in the late 1990's it was dead and before that there was no food or anything open up there.

Last summer I was up there a lot and there is a good vibe in the Kingdom.  Lots of energy with Burke, the biking, and local arts and food.  Places like Parker Pie just appeared out of nowhere.  This only helps.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> The Burke of old, no. But we're not seeing what Bill Stenger is seeing. He is probably the best person to try to make it go. And he has some things in his favor that previous folks didn't. The first being the new lifts and second the wildly popular biking. Building a place for folks to stay will bring more folks in. The lodging and campgrounds, on most weekends, are all booked in the summer now.  Throw up some decent lodging and more folks will come and try it.



I hear you, but sit back and look at the numbers. 108 million. Thats a higher number than probably any ski resort in the Northeast is worth currently. Thats more than most Western resorts. 

I get that biking is becoming more popular, but even with 150k skier visits and a rocking bike season, there is no way Burke is worth that alone. Im thinkg Jay and Burke combined would maybe be worth it if it all panned out.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I hear you, but sit back and look at the numbers. 108 million. Thats a higher number than probably any ski resort in the Northeast is worth currently. Thats more than most Western resorts.
> 
> I get that biking is becoming more popular, but even with 150k skier visits and a rocking bike season, there is no way Burke is worth that alone. Im thinkg Jay and Burke combined would maybe be worth it if it all panned out.



$108 mill is a lot. But that also includes lots of infrastructure, etc.  I imagine that they are putting other things in that amount too such as consulting, legal fees, etc.  But yes, it is a lot.  FWIW Ginn was going to invest something like that into Burke as well.  

And Jay is going to be getting $178 million I believe.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> $108 mill is a lot. But that also includes lots of infrastructure, etc.  I imagine that they are putting other things in that amount too such as consulting, legal fees, etc.  But yes, it is a lot.  FWIW Ginn was going to invest something like that into Burke as well.
> 
> And Jay is going to be getting $178 million I believe.



True, a lot of it could probably be done in the terms of "maintenance" so to speak, ala yearly snowmaking upgrades or what have you, but its still a crapload of money, money that if it wasnt buying citizenship would be a horrible investment. 

That party will end if results dont happen in some form. Did we ever answer what stipulations are tied to the jobs the program is supposed to create. If temp workers for constuction etc are qualifying, the NEK is going to enter a world of pain once that dries up.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> True, a lot of it could probably be done in the terms of "maintenance" so to speak, ala yearly snowmaking upgrades or what have you, but its still a crapload of money, money that if it wasnt buying citizenship would be a horrible investment.
> 
> That party will end if results dont happen in some form. Did we ever answer what stipulations are tied to the jobs the program is supposed to create. If temp workers for constuction etc are qualifying, the NEK is going to enter a world of pain once that dries up.



I imagine that the jobs criteria is pretty broad.  

But remember that of the $500 million, a significant amount is going to establishing at least three tech companies that will have better paying jobs.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

Good video and more info on the mountain:  

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/116-what-will-burke-look-like


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## Masskier (Sep 28, 2012)

x10003q said:


> They will get the return and more. I'm a gearhead also but on a Friday night in the dark after a full day at work and 2 kids in the back seat I am not in the mood to be "heel and toeing" it in the family cruiser. I want to get on the highway, set the cruise, get off the highway and be at my lodge in less than 1/2 an hour. Burke fits the bill.
> 
> The new HSQ makes Burke visable to a whole new group of skiers. Add in the Jay marketing machine and they will be at 150k visits in no time.



Agreed.  I drive 2 miles get on the highway and set the cruise control, get off and drive 8 miles to the Mt.  Doesn't get much easier than that.  

The new owners understand that the reason Burke skier visits are so low is because they don't have a bed base.  Some hotels/lodges will change that and the skier visits will grow.


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## bigbog (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like most of us, Im not a casual skier, but the easier drive argument always perplexes me. Maybe its just how Im wired, but 4.5 hours in a car is 4.5 hours in a car, no matter what type of road Im on.
> 
> We just love the mountains and powder/pp too much AR!
> The great pricing of VT passes certainly make it affordable.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like I said Im a gearhead. I look forward to heel/toe downshifts. So thats most likely it.



I love my 6 speed manual transmission on twisty back roads as much as the next guy, but not every single weekend of a ski season, 7 hours round trip.  



AdironRider said:


> I hear you, but sit back and look at the numbers. 108 million. Thats a higher number than probably any ski resort in the Northeast is worth currently. Thats more than most Western resorts.
> 
> I get that biking is becoming more popular, but even with 150k skier visits and a rocking bike season, there is no way Burke is worth that alone. Im thinkg Jay and Burke combined would maybe be worth it if it all panned out.



Resorts don't invest that kind of money in hopes of getting it back at sale. I'd imagine a lot of that $108M will be flipped in real estate sales.  For some perspective, while $108M for 150K skier visits seems like a ton of cash for not that much of a return, Stowe has spent in the neighborhood of $500M over the past 10 years which has grown their business very little. 2010-2011 was a great year and they only did 330K skier visits.


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## stomachdoc (Sep 29, 2012)

Seems like they are on the right track here.  Burke will never make it as a day-tripper mountain for Boston residents; it's too far and Loon and Waterville are an hour closer, but, with a good quality bed-base, you'll certainly get weekenders and longer-stayers.


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## EPB (Sep 29, 2012)

stomachdoc said:


> Seems like they are on the right track here.  Burke will never make it as a day-tripper mountain for Boston residents; it's too far and Loon and Waterville are an hour closer, but, with a good quality bed-base, you'll certainly get weekenders and longer-stayers.



I tend to agree.  If you ask me, Burke can essentially go directly after the Sunday River market as both places are about 3 hours from Boston and don't have a full-fledged ski town like North Conway in close proximity to the mountain.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 29, 2012)

I wish them luck.


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## Masskier (Sep 30, 2012)

Went to the informational meeting at the Tamarack today.  The new owners were very specific about their snow making plans this year.  If we have an average November temp wise, they are going to be very aggressive and hope to have lots of terrain open for 11/23.   They said they will blow snow on the upper elevations when the temps hit the middle 20's anytime after Nov 1st.  If we have average temps this year they plan to offer skiing form Nov 23 through mid April.  They now have the technology, equipment and budget,  and they plan on using it.  It was really nice to hear how committed they are to Burke.  In addition to the new 140+ tower guns, they now own a new compressor.  In the past they had leased them and only had 60 days to use them.  Now they can make snow anytime they desire.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2012)

Masskier said:


> Went to the informational meeting at the Tamarack today.  The new owners were very specific about their snow making plans this year.  If we have an average November temp wise, they are going to be very aggressive and hope to have lots of terrain open for 11/23.   They said they will blow snow on the upper elevations when the temps hit the middle 20's anytime after Nov 1st.  If we have average temps this year they plan to offer skiing form Nov 23 through mid April.  They now have the technology, equipment and budget,  and they plan on using it.  It was really nice to hear how committed they are to Burke.  In addition to the new 140+ tower guns, they now own a new compressor.  In the past they had leased them and only had 60 days to use them.  Now they can make snow anytime they desire.



I hope that they make Burke the "trails skiing" resort and offer good snowmaking and the same good grooming in areas...and Jay the "powder/glades" mountain.  I actually like Burke's woods better, but Burke's trails are much better than Jay's thanks to the topography.  I'm glad to see that they got that the first thing that was needed was snowmaking...and more HKD guns up top and a new compressor.  Yes, that will give them a big boost.

When folks who have been skiing the easier, manicured, blah cruisers from the Okemo/Sunapee/Strattons of the world, come and try Burke they will be very entertained.  As long as they leave in the natural rolls and curves, Burke is a very entertaining trail skiing mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> When folks who have been skiing the easier, manicured, blah cruisers from the Okemo/Sunapee/Strattons of the world, come and try Burke they will be very entertained.  As long as they leave in the natural rolls and curves, Burke is a very entertaining trail skiing mountain.



Burke's groomers remind me of the groomers at Okemo in the 80s before the mountain became very popular and widened their trails to handle the crowds.  Burke is a very similarly pitched mountain to Okemo.  For the most part, outside of their glades, there's nothing steeper / more difficult at Burke than exists at Okemo.  Stratton actually has much steeper trail terrain than exists at Burke.  I hope an increase in popularity doesn't result in them having to "boulevard" their trails like Okemo, Stratton and Sunapee have had to.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke's groomers remind me of the groomers at Okemo in the 80s before the mountain became very popular and widened their trails to handle the crowds.  Burke is a very similarly pitched mountain to Okemo.  For the most part, outside of their glades, there's nothing steeper / more difficult at Burke than exists at Okemo.  Stratton actually has much steeper trail terrain than exists at Burke.  I hope an increase in popularity doesn't result in them having to "boulevard" their trails like Okemo, Stratton and Sunapee have had to.


You just talked me out of a trip over there.


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke's groomers remind me of the groomers at Okemo in the 80s before the mountain became very popular and widened their trails to handle the crowds.  Burke is a very similarly pitched mountain to Okemo.  For the most part, outside of their glades, there's nothing steeper / more difficult at Burke than exists at Okemo.  Stratton actually has much steeper trail terrain than exists at Burke.  I hope an increase in popularity doesn't result in them having to "boulevard" their trails like Okemo, Stratton and Sunapee have had to.


I tend to disagree and believe the center trails are steeper than almost everything at Okemo. I do hope that they keep the trails with the same character.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> You just talked me out of a trip over there.



your loss.  It's a great place to ski.  While not very steep, they have a lot of groomers with good character, there's some killer glades, no crowds / liftlines.  I love Burke.



Smellytele said:


> I tend to disagree and believe the center trails are steeper than almost everything at Okemo. I do hope that they keep the trails with the same character.



I just see Burke as very much an intermediate pitched mountain.  In terms of "expert" terrain you have Fox's with it's natural terrain features, which a place like Okemo doesn't have, but most of Burke's trail terrain is pretty mellow. There's a lot of character to their trails due to them being more narrow than most ski areas, but take that away (which I hope popularity doesn't do) and the terrain could become gentrified rather easily. Willoughby reminds me of Upper World Cup at Okemo, Warrens - Noreaster or Lower Wardance, Doug's - Chief. Those would be the middle trails at both areas and I think they're pretty comparable in pitch. 

Burke's a great place, they just don't have much steep terrain on the map.  It would appear the West Bowl area could offer some though.  Hope to see that trail expansion someday.


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## riverc0il (Oct 1, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke is a very similarly pitched mountain to Okemo.  For the most part, outside of their glades, there's nothing steeper / more difficult at Burke than exists at Okemo.  Stratton actually has much steeper trail terrain than exists at Burke.


Couldn't disagree more. Burke's blue squares ski a step up from most other mountains, especially Okemo and to a lesser extent Stratton as well.


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## riverc0il (Oct 1, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke's a great place, they just don't have much steep terrain on the map.  It would appear the West Bowl area could offer some though.  Hope to see that trail expansion someday.


I think you are comparing blacks at other areas to blues at Burke. I agree Burke doesn't have anything super steep. It is a very consistently pitched mountain. But blues at Burke are often blacks at mountains like Okemo and Stratton. I think Big Dipper is likely steeper than most of the blacks at Okemo and Stratton. But it is true Burke doesn't have anything super steep.


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## Masskier (Oct 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I think you are comparing blacks at other areas to blues at Burke. I agree Burke doesn't have anything super steep. It is a very consistently pitched mountain. But blues at Burke are often blacks at mountains like Okemo and Stratton. I think Big Dipper is likely steeper than most of the blacks at Okemo and Stratton. But it is true Burke doesn't have anything super steep.



Agreed,  Many blues at Burke would be blacks at other ski areas.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 1, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> your loss.  It's a great place to ski.  While not very steep, they have a lot of groomers with good character, there's some killer glades, no crowds / liftlines.  I love Burke.
> 
> I just see Burke as very much an intermediate pitched mountain.  In terms of "expert" terrain you have Fox's with it's natural terrain features, which a place like Okemo doesn't have, but most of Burke's trail terrain is pretty mellow. There's a lot of character to their trails due to them being more narrow than most ski areas, but take that away (which I hope popularity doesn't do) and the terrain could become gentrified rather easily. Willoughby reminds me of Upper World Cup at Okemo, Warrens - Noreaster or Lower Wardance, Doug's - Chief. Those would be the middle trails at both areas and I think they're pretty comparable in pitch.
> 
> Burke's a great place, they just don't have much steep terrain on the map.  It would appear the West Bowl area could offer some though.  Hope to see that trail expansion someday.



Have you skied at Burke since that rainy/crappy day that I skied with you a few years ago? 
I would put Burke somewhere inbetween Sugarloaf and Okemo/Stratton in terms of steepness. Nothing at Burke matches the steepness of the upper mtn of Sugarloaf. Likewise nothing at Okemo or Stratton matches the steepness of the middle section of Burke (Willoughby, Ledges, Fox's Folly, Upper Warrens Way, Rerun, Dougs Drop, Upper Dipper, Wilderness). And two of those trails are Blues.
Additionally, IMHO skiing Burke is much more interesting that skiing any of the three other mtns I have listed in this post (granted Sugarloaf was a sheet of ice last time I was there).


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## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2012)

Yes, a couple of times, including a powder day when it was 100% open.  I like Burke A LOT.  I like it much better than Okemo, Stratton and certainly Sunapee.  That said, I didn't go away from the place with an impression that there was much steep terrain.  It probably is "steeper" than Okemo and Stratton overall, but nothing at Burke is much steeper than sections of say Defiance and Upper Chief at Okemo or Upper Spruce and Grizzly Bear at Stratton.  Maybe a little regarding the Okemo trails listed, but not by much. I think Grizzly Bear is steeper than anything I skied at Burke.  There's certainly nothing at Burke that approaches the pitch of some of the trails at Stowe, Sugarbush, MRG, Smuggs, Killington etc. 

As far as the skiing being much more interesting than the others? It sure is today, hence my reference to the trails at Okemo in the 80s.  Trails like World Cup and Chief were much narrower and hella fun back in the day.

Sorry for ruffling the feathers of the Burke loyalists.  My comments certainly shouldn't be taken as criticism of Burke.  I don't think a ski area needs to be steep to be a lot of fun.  Wildcat is one of my favorites and it's not very steep at all.  Perhaps Wildcat would be the better comparison to Burke when discussing trail pitch.


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## Smellytele (Oct 1, 2012)

I would go with the Wildcat comparison because of the middle part of the mountain does have some steep with Feline, Starr Line and Black Cat, Hairball and also some other short pitches on the lower Mtn - Sphynx, and chutes.


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## riverc0il (Oct 1, 2012)

The thing with Burke is that it is damn consistent. Some of the most consistently pitched trails any where. While nothing is super steep, the pitch stays the same for most of the run... you don't have a steep followed by a flat (except maybe Big Dipper which has the mountains steepest sections and flattens out where it crosses the auto road). So while some sections of trails at Okemo and Stratton may be comparable to Burke's steepest, overall Burke has trails that are consistently at the same pitch, not just steep for sections. I really REALLY like that in a ski area.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 1, 2012)

This thread is sad.

You guys are comparing the steeps of Okemo & Stratton to Burke.

Doesn't say much for Burke.


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## riverc0il (Oct 1, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> This thread is sad.
> 
> You guys are comparing the steeps of Okemo & Stratton to Burke.
> 
> Doesn't say much for Burke.


Bottom line: Don't listen to any comparisons made between Okemo/Stratton and Burke. Burke is consistently steeper than Okemo and Stratton. Period. And you can read on my site what I think about Okemo and Stratton and draw your own conclusions about my love for Burke. Go and check the place out. If you don't, it truly is your loss.


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## skivideoguy (Oct 1, 2012)

Effects of Jay/Burke on Sugarbush/Stowe/Smuggs.......

Development like this will pull skiers from other mountains. Are they targeting Boston and Montreal? How will Sugarbush counter? What's their next move? More snowmaking? Some sort of base development over at Mount Ellen? Phase 2 speedup at Lincoln Peak on Clay Brook? Will Smuggs do something about their lifts? It's all good for skiers and I like that program alot! Great to see jobs in VT. 

Can't wait to get up there early December!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> This thread is sad.
> 
> You guys are comparing the steeps of Okemo & Stratton to Burke.
> 
> Doesn't say much for Burke.



All you need to know is that Burke Mountain Academy is there and they put out some of the best ski racers in the world.  It was the first ski academy of its kind.  I think that speaks more to Burke's terrain and challenge than comparisons to Okemo or Stratton.


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## troy (Oct 3, 2012)

dude kamon, now your totally talking bs... burke is way steeper consistent pitch than okemo/stratton.  Stop dissin' the burke like that.  dixiland and jungle are some of the steepest glades in the northeast, how's a 30 foot drop for ya, steep enuff?  just sayin'


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## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2012)

skivideoguy said:


> Effects of Jay/Burke on Sugarbush/Stowe/Smuggs.......
> 
> Development like this will pull skiers from other mountains. Are they targeting Boston and Montreal? How will Sugarbush counter? What's their next move? More snowmaking? Some sort of base development over at Mount Ellen? Phase 2 speedup at Lincoln Peak on Clay Brook? Will Smuggs do something about their lifts? It's all good for skiers and I like that program alot! Great to see jobs in VT.
> 
> Can't wait to get up there early December!



Stowe and Sugarbush are lightyears ahead of Burke and I imagine they don't consider Burke to be a competitor.  Stowe is set in its market and just maintaining things as they are.  Sugarbush is trying to snag Stowe's crowd, grab some of the BTV locals, and continue to market itself as a destination resort.  Smuggs is also pretty well set with its family market.  

This is not to say that things can change, but Burke has a long ways to catch up with these folks and, to be honest, they probably want to go after a different crowd.


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## Smellytele (Oct 3, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Stowe and Sugarbush are lightyears ahead of Burke and I imagine they don't consider Burke to be a competitor.  Stowe is set in its market and just maintaining things as they are.  Sugarbush is trying to snag Stowe's crowd, grab some of the BTV locals, and continue to market itself as a destination resort.  Smuggs is also pretty well set with its family market.
> 
> This is not to say that things can change, but Burke has a long ways to catch up with these folks and, to be honest, they probably want to go after a different crowd.



Which crowd would that be?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Which crowd would that be?



For Burke, I'd say more purists and folks who have less income than those who go to Stowe or Sugarbush.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2012)

troy said:


> dude kamon, now your totally talking bs... burke is way steeper consistent pitch than okemo/stratton.  Stop dissin' the burke like that.  dixiland and jungle are some of the steepest glades in the northeast, how's a 30 foot drop for ya, steep enuff?  just sayin'



Burke has some impressive drops on marked glades, maybe the most impressive I've seen in the east actually.  That said, those glades are far from "some of the steepest" in the east.  They're great fun and have the big drops, but are not what I consider steep.  

Burke is a great mountain with consistent pitch, but it does not offer all that steep of terrain.  It really doesn't.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 3, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> For Burke, I'd say more purists and folks who have less income than those who go to Stowe or Sugarbush.



can't run a resort with that clientele.


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## riverc0il (Oct 3, 2012)

troy said:


> dude kamon, now your totally talking bs... burke is way steeper consistent pitch than okemo/stratton.  Stop dissin' the burke like that.  dixiland and jungle are some of the steepest glades in the northeast, how's a 30 foot drop for ya, steep enuff?  just sayin'


Oh now c'mon, now you are just swinging to the opposite field as DHS. I'd done that drop in Jungle and it isn't a 30 foot free fall and one big drop does not a steep glade make. One of those glades dumping into East Bowl has a big one but I wouldn't put that at 30 either. Maybe it depends on the amount of snow. Burke is significantly and much more consistently steep than Okemo or Stratton but it does not have any where near the steepest glades in the northeast. NOT EVEN CLOSE.


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## riverc0il (Oct 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke is a great mountain with consistent pitch, but it does not offer all that steep of terrain.  It really doesn't.


I don't think any one said it did. This discussion started on this route because you said Burke is about the same pitch as Okemo and maybe Stratton is steeper...


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I don't think any one said it did. This discussion started on this route because you said Burke is about the same pitch as Okemo and maybe Stratton is steeper...



troy did and my comments were in response to his.

I stand by my argument.  There's very little if any terrain at Burke that's steeper than what you can find at Okemo or Stratton.  Maximum steepness. I've conceded that yes, overall, Burke is consistently steeper than those two mountains and offered Wildcat as a better comparative, but overall, there's really nothing there that much if at all steeper than the steepest terrain at Okemo and Stratton.   

There's nothing at Burke like Goat or Star at Stowe, Upper FIS or Steins at Sugarbush; Chute or Paradise at MRG; Ovation or Outer Limits at Killington; Face Chutes at Jay etc.  That's what I'm saying.  Great consistent pitch, but nothing on their map is in the conversation of top maybe 30+ steepest trails in the east.  It's a great mountain for advanced terrain, but it's expert terrain pitches doesn't go much beyond what you can find at Okemo or Stratton.  

If you all want to get out your protractors, topozone or google earth maps and prove me wrong, go for it.


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## Nick (Oct 3, 2012)

Another question, maybe deserves its own thread.... in glades, I feel like density and cover are more important than pitch. The only place I truly care about pitch is open terrain ... groomers or bowls .. maybe because that's what makes a groomer more challenging to me ? 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## steamboat1 (Oct 3, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> For Burke, I'd say more purists and folks who have less income than those who go to Stowe or Sugarbush.


Yep Burke has more  purists then Stowe or Sugabush.

Are you serious?


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 4, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Yep Burke has more  purists then Stowe or Sugabush.
> 
> Are you serious?



same purists, just fewer of them.  need more purists. preferably with less less income.


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## EPB (Oct 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> troy did and my comments were in response to his.
> 
> I stand by my argument.  There's very little if any terrain at Burke that's steeper than what you can find at Okemo or Stratton.  Maximum steepness. I've conceded that yes, overall, Burke is consistently steeper than those two mountains and offered Wildcat as a better comparative, but overall, there's really nothing there that much if at all steeper than the steepest terrain at Okemo and Stratton.
> 
> ...



I'd say that the topography at Burke compares best to the south ridge quad at Sr at the bottom with Bear Peak on top od it. I mean that as no disrespect as the snow, glades and character of the runs at Burke on both the lower and upper mountain are superior at Burke. That said, id say both Bear Peak and Burke are steeper on the whole than Okemo and the lower section comps very well to the length and vertical of the south ridge at SR.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Yep Burke has more purists then Stowe or Sugabush.
> 
> Are you serious?



How would you know if you haven't skied at Burke?  

And yes, I'm serious.  The market that Burke is going after is different than Stowe's by far in my mind.  I would think that Sugarbush might lose some skiers because the Burke/Jay combo offers a good product to the serious skier who doesn't want or need the frills.  Sugarbush already gets most of the local market in central Vermont who make a good income and are serious skiers, but can't afford Stowe.  

I'd say that Burke is also looking to Canada now that they are packaged with Jay.  Until they get more beds, I'd say the Boston and NYC markets are out...and when the beds come, they'd target the folks in their 20's and 30's who want a ski experience that is not the resort experience, but the back to nature experience...and the same folks who are hard core bikers in the summer.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 4, 2012)

a resort thats not a resort.
wealthy people who dislike frills.
looking for people who can't afford stowe but will spend the same amount in gas to get to a non resort with no frills and less 'expert' terrain.

what could go wrong with that?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> a resort thats not a resort.
> wealthy people who dislike frills.
> looking for people who can't afford stowe but will spend the same amount in gas to get to a non resort with no frills and less 'expert' terrain.
> 
> what could go wrong with that?




Well, the other option is that the place could be on NELSAP.  We know that you don't like what Bill Stenger has done with Jay, but if anyone is going to make Burke survive, Bill is the guy.  And I also can predict that you are probably not happy with the big plan he has rolled out, but the NEK needs good jobs and give young people a reason to stay there and the chance to survive.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm confused, what purity level am I at again. 

I want to know if I should be expecting a personal visit from Bill S at my house trying to get me to go to Burke or if I should stick my nose up and buy a family pass to Stowe. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 4, 2012)

BTW it is late in the day at work, and I haven't seen the sun in a week, so I'm getting a little punchy


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm confused, what purity level am I at again.
> 
> I want to know if I should be expecting a personal visit from Bill S at my house trying to get me to go to Burke or if I should stick my nose up and buy a family pass to Stowe. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!




I can't believe you have to ask. You are literally the POSTER CHILD for Burke Mountain!


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 4, 2012)

Where did you find that? :lol::lol::lol:


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Where did you find that? :lol::lol::lol:



Amazing what Google can find......


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 4, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, the other option is that the place could be on NELSAP. We know that you don't like what Bill Stenger has done with Jay, but if anyone is going to make Burke survive, Bill is the guy. And I also can predict that you are probably not happy with the big plan he has rolled out, but the NEK needs good jobs and give young people a reason to stay there and the chance to survive.



spare me your predicitve skills.

I just find the irony hard to ignore. A place that attracts people because of it's "rusticness" needs to be a lot less "rustic" to attract people who can pay for less "rusticness" in a rustic region.  

When are you moving back?  Before or after the Renaissance begins.


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## AdironRider (Oct 4, 2012)

Like Old Faithful, you can count on Kingdom being against anything different in the NEK. 

Keep on keepin on I suppose. Im not a huge fan of this development, but theres a certain "curmudgeon" attribute of Kingdom that make me want to be for it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like Old Faithful, you can count on Kingdom being against anything different in the NEK.



+ 1.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 4, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Like Old Faithful, you can count on Kingdom being against anything different in the NEK.
> 
> Keep on keepin on I suppose. Im not a huge fan of this development, but theres a certain "curmudgeon" attribute of Kingdom that make me want to be for it.



anything?

Be for it.  I never said I wasn't.  

The addition of jobs to Newport will be great, maybe it will spare my sister in law from totalling another car on a moose in eden while she drives back and forth to IBM. I hope she can get a similar wage job 5 miles from her house. Who knows, maybe multi million dollar conference center will help me realiize my dream of running a burrito cart for all the people having conferences.  But, maybe, just maybe,  10 thousand people don't really want to move a such a backward community as the NEK, I mean hell, can't even find decent food in the grocery around here. I can only imagine there are hundreds, if not thousands of local kids who moved away just waiting for their chance at part time/minimum wage jobs.  I digress.  Maybe I am a curmudgeon, sorry it bothers you fellas so much, just getting tired of the rhetoric from people with money lined pants telling everyone how great things will be once we can make more money, charge more money, attract people with money, as if that is the only way to make something sustainable or worse yet, sell as soulful.

/curmudgeon blog


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## riverc0il (Oct 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> There's nothing at Burke like Goat or Star at Stowe, Upper FIS or Steins at Sugarbush; Chute or Paradise at MRG; Ovation or Outer Limits at Killington; Face Chutes at Jay etc.  That's what I'm saying.  Great consistent pitch, but nothing on their map is in the conversation of top maybe 30+ steepest trails in the east.  It's a great mountain for advanced terrain, but it's expert terrain pitches doesn't go much beyond what you can find at Okemo or Stratton.
> 
> If you all want to get out your protractors, topozone or google earth maps and prove me wrong, go for it.


Agreed on all points here. I think it was more how you said it rather than what you said that some of us took issue with.


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## riverc0il (Oct 4, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> same purists, just fewer of them.  need more purists. preferably with less less income.


What does being a purist have to do with income? :-?:-o


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 4, 2012)

no idea.  burke is apparently for purists and those with less income.  it was on the verge of going NELSAP as it was. hence, need more of either.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> What does being a purist have to do with income? :-?:-o


Well they can't be a purist if they can afford to ski Stowe & Sugarbush.

At least that's the way I interpret it from Snowbird man.

I heard the purists ski at Alta out that way, but what do I know?

Do purists go in the water park at Jay since Jay is a purist mountain.

Doubt it since they're a no frills crowd with no money.

Jay's losing the purist market share.

They're now moving into the silo at the base of Sugarbush.


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## AdironRider (Oct 5, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Well they can't be a purist if they can afford to ski Stowe & Sugarbush.
> 
> At least that's the way I interpret it from Snowbird man.
> 
> ...



To argue the purists wont go to a place with a waterpark and surmise they now hang out at Mascara Mountain is pretty funny.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> To argue the purists wont go to a place with a waterpark and surmise they now hang out at Mascara Mountain is pretty funny.



Exactly. My point being that folks go to Stowe because of the aura of Stowe and to see and be seen. Sugarbush used to be that way and now is making a comeback to some extent. These two areas are established resorts. Burke is a ski area and Stenger's goal is to get the volume up to 150k skier days, not the same level as Sugarbush or Stowe. Unless a hell of a lot changes, the resort crowd is not going to be at Burke. So the folks who don't spend $2,000 a night on a hotel room and generally don't ski hard are not coming; folks who spend, say, $150 a night on a room and are there to ski hard and play hard will come.  Hence, the folks who have some disposable income, but are focused on biking or skiing rather than other activities.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 5, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. My point being that folks go to Stowe because of the aura of Stowe and to see and be seen. Sugarbush used to be that way and now is making a comeback to some extent. These two areas are established resorts. Burke is a ski area and Stenger's goal is to get the volume up to 150k skier days, not the same level as Sugarbush or Stowe. Unless a hell of a lot changes, the resort crowd is not going to be at Burke. So the folks who don't spend $2,000 a night on a hotel room and generally don't ski hard are not coming; folks who spend, say, $150 a night on a room and are there to ski hard and play hard will come. Hence, the folks who have some disposable income, but are focused on biking or skiing rather than other activities.




150K skiers isn't a big change?

Having to inflate costs to support running 100+ million in infrastructure isn't a big change?

how many "purists" are looking forward to standing in line for 20 minutes to take a 90sec run down a skied out dippers?


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## AdironRider (Oct 5, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> 150K skiers isn't a big change?
> 
> Having to inflate costs to support running 100+ million in infrastructure isn't a big change?
> 
> how many "purists" are looking forward to standing in line for 20 minutes to take a 90sec run down a skied out dippers?



I hear you on the infastructure comment, thats my cause for concern with this whole development. 1250 beds is going to cost a couple mill a year just to keep the buildings in decent shape, plus labor etc. 

But you lose arguments with hyperbole of 20 minute liftlines. 150K skier visits is not going automatically result in Killington level crowding. Thats never going to happen in the NEK. 

JHole does at least double the target of Burke, and there are only two ways up realistically from the base. We dont see lines that long pretty much ever, outside of an epic (for our out here were talking two feet plus overnight) pow day during Christmas week.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2012)

To suggest that only people with limited resources are hardcore (purist) skiers/riders is ludicrous. Places like Stowe & Sugarbush attract hardcore skiers because of the terrain they offer both in bounds & out of bounds. Not having this type of terrain will never attract hardcore skiers/riders no matter what price they charge. There is no correlation between being a hardcore skier/rider & ability to pay is all I'm saying..


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> To suggest that only people with limited resources are hardcore (purist) skiers/riders is ludicrous. Places like Stowe & Sugarbush attract hardcore skiers because of the terrain they offer both in bounds & out of bounds. Not having this type of terrain will never attract hardcore skiers no matter what price they charge. There is no correlation between being a hardcore skier/rider & ability to pay is all I'm saying..



No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that Stowe and Sugarbush, now to some extent, are catering to different demographics that have different preferences.  That is all.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 5, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I hear you on the infastructure comment, thats my cause for concern with this whole development. 1250 beds is going to cost a couple mill a year just to keep the buildings in decent shape, plus labor etc.
> 
> But you lose arguments with hyperbole of 20 minute liftlines. 150K skier visits is not going automatically result in Killington level crowding. Thats never going to happen in the NEK.
> 
> JHole does at least double the target of Burke, and there are only two ways up realistically from the base. We dont see lines that long pretty much ever, outside of an epic (for our out here were talking two feet plus overnight) pow day during Christmas week.




never? I thought this was the whole point of this progress.

the redeeming value of the burke experience is largely based on the fact it is a ski "area" as TB points out. Obviously ski areas can't survive, a resort atmosphere, more complexity is needed to attract whatever demographic business men need.

while a 20 min lift line was hyperbole, a 90sec run down dippers is not, especially with only a handful of people on any given trail, add 100's of people and the experience changes, true?

how many people are gonna be bitchin about crowds, already hear at Jay, and Jay had an established following to begin with. NEK can comment, how long did the pow last on the 1 bonifide pow day last year, imagine a line up 4x longer, every day when the mystic purist with disposable income shows up

At least someone is satisfied, fortunately they don't ski


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 5, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> how many people are gonna be bitchin about crowds, already hear at Jay, and Jay had an established following to begin with. NEK can comment, how long did the pow last on the 1 bonifide pow day last year, imagine a line up 4x longer, every day when the mystic purist with disposable income shows up




Granted that was the one decent powder day of the year. There was a lot of pent up demand that day. There were a lot more skinner that morning than I had ever seen as well.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 5, 2012)

Turning East Bowl into a giant glade and moving the Willoughby Quad over there should spread out the crowds a bit.

I wonder how long it will be before there is talk of expanding into the West Bowl? My odds: 
within 5 years = 10-1
within 10 years = 3-1

All depends on if they come close to that 150K number.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2012)

How much terrain to the own or are they permitted for in the West Bowl?

What have they discussed in the past in terms of lifts, trails, acreage etc.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 5, 2012)

That is the sticky point. It is all state forest land. Back in the day, Northern Star had eyes on it and even had a sketch up of trails in the mid-lodge for a while. That layout looked pretty bad and was very generalized. I don't think there were ever any permits issued for it. Trails on this part of the mountain(properly built of course) could be very Castlerock-esque.

The other complicating factors on that part of the mtn are the hiking trails.


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## Masskier (Oct 5, 2012)

Interesting comments.  Not sure where some of the numbers are coming from.  At last weeks meeting Bill was very clear that he has no interest in turning burke into an over crowded resort with 20 minute lift lines.  He indicated that he has 150 days to increase the skier visits, 40 are weekends and holidays, he is most interested in building (the other 110 days) the midweek non holiday business.  Right now Burke has very little midweek business.  With the lodging they will be able to offer value on the 5 day visitors.  He even indicated that he is going to offer long stay visitors at Jay interchangeable lift tickets at Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

Re: West Bowl.  FTNEK out up the original master plan from Kitchell and then Quinn.  I think that they might have been approved, but not funded.  Since then they cut out the West Peak and Cutter Portions and focused on East Bowl.  Ginn brought Cutter back.  Honestly I'm curious as to why they "forgot" or dropped West Peak since that is legit expert terrain that would give Burke another angle.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

And the map is from Bear Kingdom Limited.  Notice that the Cutter portion is gone.  I'll dig up the original one.  Impressive to say the least.


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## riverc0il (Oct 5, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> 150K skiers isn't a big change?
> 
> Having to inflate costs to support running 100+ million in infrastructure isn't a big change?
> 
> how many "purists" are looking forward to standing in line for 20 minutes to take a 90sec run down a skied out dippers?


Those purists will all be skiing on to the new East Bowl lift (when it goes in) and skiing the hopefully not destroyed and maybe even expanded glades. :beer:

Burke won't ever see 20 minute lift lines. They could never attract that many guests no matter the investment. They won't be able to offer their five minute guarantee any more but 20 minutes ain't going to ever happen at Burke.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Those purists will all be skiing on to the new East Bowl lift (when it goes in) and skiing the hopefully not destroyed and maybe even expanded glades. :beer:
> 
> Burke won't ever see 20 minute lift lines. They could never attract that many guests no matter the investment. They won't be able to offer their five minute guarantee any more but 20 minutes ain't going to ever happen at Burke.



they could never attract that many?  isn't this the point.

Wow, I really hope that is true.  A business plan to dump 100+ million into a place that really doesn't want skiers, or I suppose only a certain amount more

Maybe I am underestimating what "rustic" is, those lodges are going to have to be pretty special.


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## riverc0il (Oct 5, 2012)

How many skier visits does Burke get now? The goal is what, 150k/year? If they double the number of skiers, that would double the lines. Line times have never even come close to 10 minutes at Burke. They are building a few hotels, they are not recreating all of Jay's slope side and building a dozen hotels up the access road in addition to all the private second homes around the 242 area. Yes they are going for growth but they aren't queuing up an overload... I think they are smart enough businessmen to understand "if you build it, they will come" is limited to the scope of a self selecting group of guests and competition between other mountains for guests. They aren't aiming for a quarter million guests, thank goodness.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

Burke gets about 75k or so from what I have heard.  So yes, 2x is the goal.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 6, 2012)

the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.

west bowl?  never heard of it.


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## riverc0il (Oct 6, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.
> 
> west bowl?  never heard of it.


Just remember it isn't just that double the skier visits that is going to cover the cost of the new lodges because right now no money is made via those lodges because they don't exist. The lodges will pay for themselves and the market includes any current Burke skiers. That would get slopeside lodging if it existed. Also keep in mind that doubling the skier visits doesn't mean doubling the number of people that ski Burke. Part of it is just getting existing Burke skiers to the mountain more often... that new snowmaking would get me there more often and if Burke consistently operated Thanksgiving-April with a quality product very early and late, I wouldn't be passing on a Jay-Burke pass. Now I gotta think about that one next season...

Right now Burke isn't making a lodging dime on them for any of their current 75k/year business. I don't know what Burke gets for condo rentals or sales but essentially Burke has no bed base and is missing out on a big chuck of change on lodging. The lack of on mountain lodging is probably keeping a good portion of that double number away from the mountain. That would leave the extra ticket revenue to cover the extra snow. 

But let's play out your perspective: that it isn't sustainable. If that is the case, then just like Ginn, the mountain see's improvements (or you might see them as "improvements" in quotes) and then gets sold at fire sale prices to the next dupe. Cool, as long as the lifts keep turning and the season gets longer on both ends, what does it matter? 

I ain't heard of west bowl either but don't need to post a picture to prove my lack of knowledge. :lol:


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## troy (Oct 6, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> the current skier numbers can't support the mountain. But double the skier visits should not only make it profitable but sustain the operations cost of 4 new lodges and blowing snow to cover a 150 day ski season? While I haven't done the math, it certainly would seem they would need an even more self selecting group.
> 
> west bowl?  never heard of it.



cool pic!

that's the thing 'bout burke, there's a whole new friggin' mountain on the west peak w/ no trails... that's huge but might not be steep enough for them dead bangers...


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 19, 2012)

It's Friday and I haven't played in Google Earth for a while. Jus ttoying with how the new ownership will lay ot the new lodge/hotels.

Mid-Burke area.











PhotoChop:





When standing in the liftline, Willoughby Gap is visible through the space between the two hotels.

The upper hotel/lodge I made a bit smaller than my old renderings (since there are now 3 buildings instead of one large one). I still feel the day lodge would be most appropriate in this location for ease of access for the day skiers and/or racing groups. 

The buildings are all roughly 170x70 feet. The 70' width seems to be roughly somewhat of a standard when measuring other similar buildings that have been built recently (both at Jay and at Sugarbush).


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 19, 2012)

One More. This time the hotel near the base lodge. There isn't a lot of room to work with around the condos. This location provides easy ski-in/out and easy access to activites at the base lodge. And it is out of the way of the day skier traffic in the main parking lot.


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## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> It's Friday and I haven't played in Google Earth for a while. Jus ttoying with how the new ownership will lay ot the new lodge/hotels.
> 
> Mid-Burke area.
> 
> ...



Where you put the 2 lower buildings they had originally slotted for the new barn like houses they were selling last year. Not sure if they sold the lots in that area or not. They had actually built some decks so people could see what the view from their deck would be.


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## AdironRider (Oct 19, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Just remember it isn't just that double the skier visits that is going to cover the cost of the new lodges because right now no money is made via those lodges because they don't exist. The lodges will pay for themselves and the market includes any current Burke skiers. That would get slopeside lodging if it existed. Also keep in mind that doubling the skier visits doesn't mean doubling the number of people that ski Burke. Part of it is just getting existing Burke skiers to the mountain more often... that new snowmaking would get me there more often and if Burke consistently operated Thanksgiving-April with a quality product very early and late, I wouldn't be passing on a Jay-Burke pass. Now I gotta think about that one next season...
> 
> Right now Burke isn't making a lodging dime on them for any of their current 75k/year business. I don't know what Burke gets for condo rentals or sales but essentially Burke has no bed base and is missing out on a big chuck of change on lodging. The lack of on mountain lodging is probably keeping a good portion of that double number away from the mountain. That would leave the extra ticket revenue to cover the extra snow.
> 
> ...



Theres a big difference between putting people in lodges and them being profitable. 1250 beds is the goal. That takes serious capital just to run effectively, let alone maintain. 

Trust me on this one, Ive paid the bills for hotels for years now. You dont run a hotel to get rich, they mostly break even, its real estate value. 

Which leads me to believe Burke is not a long term proposition for them. Sounds to me like they want to build em using free EB-5 money, they try and flip the resort. Not a great situation.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Theres a big difference between putting people in lodges and them being profitable. 1250 beds is the goal. That takes serious capital just to run effectively, let alone maintain.
> 
> Trust me on this one, Ive paid the bills for hotels for years now. You dont run a hotel to get rich, they mostly break even, its real estate value.
> 
> Which leads me to believe Burke is not a long term proposition for them. Sounds to me like they want to build em using free EB-5 money, they try and flip the resort. Not a great situation.




I don't doubt the revenue issue, but Bill Stenger has been adamant in public that they are at Burke for the long term.  So it seems to me that he must think there is some additional market out there that they can bring to Burke to justify the investment.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 19, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Where you put the 2 lower buildings they had originally slotted for the new barn like houses they were selling last year. Not sure if they sold the lots in that area or not. They had actually built some decks so people could see what the view from their deck would be.



You can actually see one of the decks in the picture. 
I think they had sold some lots (4 or 5) but I'm sure there was some loophole in there that voided the deal if the resort was sold. All info on the "Camber Heights" development has disappeared from all Burke real estate literature that I've seen. Really it wasn't a good idea to build those in the first place. Especially given the way they were laid out.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 19, 2012)

...and I am still surprised that you see little or no cross-marketing.  There is no mention or link to Burke on Jay's site.


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## AdironRider (Oct 19, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> ...and I am still surprised that you see little or no cross-marketing.  There is no mention or link to Burke on Jay's site.



Another reason why I cant see this as a long term deal. Ive been a huge proponent of Stenger and Jay's development in previous threads, but this whole thing just doesnt add up. 

How many other companies have kicked ass then gotten delusional? Dont think Stenger cant succumb to that either.


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## Masskier (Oct 20, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> You can actually see one of the decks in the picture.
> I think they had sold some lots (4 or 5) but I'm sure there was some loophole in there that voided the deal if the resort was sold. All info on the "Camber Heights" development has disappeared from all Burke real estate literature that I've seen. Really it wasn't a good idea to build those in the first place. Especially given the way they were laid out.



They did have several people that were interested in buying at Camber Heights, However there were not any sales that were completed, because of the change in plans.


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## Masskier (Oct 20, 2012)

One thing is clear, because of the millions of dollars that have been invested in Burke from 2005 onward, the highest and best use is now a ski resort.  Prior to 2005 Burke could of had a number of different uses.


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## Boardguy (Oct 20, 2012)

I always felt that the Camber Heights project was a poor use of that piece real estate. The  proposed hotels would be a better use of that area IMO.


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## Masskier (Oct 21, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Theres a big difference between putting people in lodges and them being profitable. 1250 beds is the goal. That takes serious capital just to run effectively, let alone maintain.
> 
> Trust me on this one, Ive paid the bills for hotels for years now. You dont run a hotel to get rich, they mostly break even, its real estate value.
> 
> Which leads me to believe Burke is not a long term proposition for them. Sounds to me like they want to build em using free EB-5 money, they try and flip the resort. Not a great situation.



Why do you say that the EB-5 money is free?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 22, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> *I still cant get over putting 108 million into a mountain like Burke. You are never going to see that money back*.



I'm extremely skeptical of this as well, and here again is EB-5 rearing its' head.  Economically speaking, people tend to only look on the positive impacts of large inflows of money because that's what's intellectually (and literally) easy to see. 

 But what they do not think about is the unintended consequences of "free" government money (which isnt free).  Especially when one company is getting SO much money.  It's artificially monkeying with the efficiency of the market, to the point where Jay Peak enjoys a substantial competitive advantage over competitors that weren't _handed _tens-of-millions of such "free" dollars in EB-5.  To put it succinctly, Jay Peak isnt growing organically, so much as through direct capital investment from an outside program for which it incurs virtually no risk compared with the normal risks a company always assumes when taking money from capital markets.

How'd you like to be Smuggler's Notch competing with Jay Peak now?  Do you think the water park and ice hockey venue etc, are going to make it any easier for Smuggs to survive by carving out their Family niche now?  Of course not.  Unintended consequences.....



AdironRider said:


> Which leads me to believe Burke is not a long term proposition for them. *Sounds to me like they want to build em using free EB-5 money, they try and flip the resort. Not a great situation*.



Another excellent point.  Complete speculation on your part, and perhaps entirely inaccurate, yet also entirely plausible.  And if so, another unintended consequence of such a massive infusion of $$$$ artificially inserted in the marketplace.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

Hold on folks...*EB-5 money is not from the government nor is it free.* It is private capital from foreign investors who are investing their money like any other investment and are going to be paid back. The idea tha this is free money demonstrates that some folks are naive about how it works. 

The EB-5 program essentially connects foreign investors with domestic projects, in eligible areas with high unemployment and a low income demographic, and if the investor does invest *their own money* into the eligible project, then they may qualify for a green card. It is still private capital but it is foreign capital. There is nothing stopping other areas from using it...and many do. To be fair Sugarbush, Mount Snow, Ragged, and Saddleback are other areas that I know to be using an EB-5 program.

So the idea that this is stimulus money or free money is bogus.


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## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Hold on folks...*EB-5 money is not from the government nor is it free.* It is private capital from foreign investors who are investing their money like any other investment and are going to be paid back. The idea tha this is free money demonstrates that some folks are naive about how it works.
> 
> The EB-5 program essentially connects foreign investors with domestic projects, in eligible areas with high unemployment and a low income demographic, and if the investor does invest *their own money* into the eligible project, then they may qualify for a green card. It is still private capital but it is foreign capital. There is nothing stopping other areas from using it...and many do. To be fair Sugarbush, Mount Snow, Ragged, and Saddleback are other areas that I know to be using an EB-5 program.
> 
> So the idea that this is stimulus money or free money is bogus.



Jeez, I make one tongue in cheek statement and everyone toes the line. Ive already gone over EB-5 enough in this thread to know its not free.


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## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm extremely skeptical of this as well, and here again is EB-5 rearing its' head.  Economically speaking, people tend to only look on the positive impacts of large inflows of money because that's what's intellectually (and literally) easy to see.
> 
> But what they do not think about is the unintended consequences of "free" government money (which isnt free).  Especially when one company is getting SO much money.  It's artificially monkeying with the efficiency of the market, to the point where Jay Peak enjoys a substantial competitive advantage over competitors that weren't _handed _tens-of-millions of such "free" dollars in EB-5.  To put it succinctly, Jay Peak isnt growing organically, so much as through direct capital investment from an outside program for which it incurs virtually no risk compared with the normal risks a company always assumes when taking money from capital markets.
> 
> ...



I hear you on both points. 

While this money is available to all, there are definitely certain barriers to entry. Despite Sugarbush and the others using it, theres a reason Jay is getting a metric shitton of it, and my guess is they have a good sales team. 

I realize Im speculating on my thoughts within this thread, but the money mind in me see no other option than an eventual flip at a loss, seems like par for the course with Burke. 

It would be one thing for a lodge, some snowmaking, then build it up, but they seem to want to go right for the jugular a bit to fast with this one.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Jeez, I make one tongue in cheek statement and everyone toes the line. Ive already gone over EB-5 enough in this thread to know its not free.



It was not you that got it wrong.  I was responding to Benedict's comments.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I hear you on both points.
> 
> While this money is available to all, there are definitely certain barriers to entry. Despite Sugarbush and the others using it, theres a reason Jay is getting a metric shitton of it, and my guess is they have a good sales team.
> 
> ...



Re: JPR. Bill Stenger and company were really the first in VT to develop an EB-5 program because they were having a hard time getting capital. Their office, and their attorney who does EB-5 work exclusively, have really been aggressive and have had a lot of success in getting capital.  It is not as if it was given to them--they went out and got it.   

Burke: I think their goal is to get more beds to get more overnight visits and to get more revenue. As a day area it is not making it. I still don't think they are going to flip it because, as we have seen ad nauseum, there is nobody out there who wants it!


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 22, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I still don't think they are going to flip it because, as we have seen ad nauseum, there is nobody out there who wants it!




you mean nobody trying to get rich off of it right TB.


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## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Re: JPR. Bill Stenger and company were really the first in VT to develop an EB-5 program because they were having a hard time getting capital. Their office, and their attorney who does EB-5 work exclusively, have really been aggressive and have had a lot of success in getting capital.  It is not as if it was given to them--they went out and got it.
> 
> Burke: I think their goal is to get more beds to get more overnight visits and to get more revenue. As a day area it is not making it. I still don't think they are going to flip it because, as we have seen ad nauseum, there is nobody out there who wants it!




I hope your right, but there have been enough buyers in the last few years to prove your last statement wrong. Arent they on their third owner since the mid 00's?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> I hope your right, but there have been enough buyers in the last few years to prove your last statement wrong. Arent they on their third owner since the mid 00's?



No, the second.  And I would go so far as to say that Ginn did not count.  

The last owner, independent of BMA and its related folks, was from 1995-2000 and that was Northern Star.  They were foreclosed in 2000 and at the auction by the creditor there was one buyer for the resort, but the creditor exercised the option to try to sell the resort piecemeal in order to get more money.  When that round happened, the only bidder for the ski area was a scrap dealer.  

A prominent "friend of BMA" stepped into the scene and bought the area from this guy.  Hence, Burke 2000 LLC.  

Now in 2005 the same prominent "friend of BMA" convinced Bobby Ginn, a friend of his, to take over.  "Friend of BMA" got some other folks together and formed an REIT that owned the resort while Ginn was to develop it.  

Ginn was shown the door in 2009; Crave was brought in to run it.  REIT got out of it in 2012.  

So the only owners for the past 12 years were BMA related folks and I would not count them as being a potential buyer because they just got out of it and don't want to run a resort anymore.


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## riverc0il (Oct 22, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> But what they do not think about is the unintended consequences of "free" government money (which isnt free).  Especially when one company is getting SO much money.  It's artificially monkeying with the efficiency of the market, to the point where Jay Peak enjoys a substantial competitive advantage over competitors that weren't _handed _tens-of-millions of such "free" dollars in EB-5.  To put it succinctly, Jay Peak isnt growing organically, so much as through direct capital investment from an outside program for which it incurs virtually no risk compared with the normal risks a company always assumes when taking money from capital markets.


You are arguing for a 100% completely free and open market without interference. But the government has stepped in to a lot of businesses and greased the wheels of development, innovation, and local investment over the years. I would argue that if certain programs did not exist, our country and the world would not be nearly as technologically advanced as we are now nor economically so well off. Other resorts could try for EB5 money, Jay is not getting it within a vacuum. And I suspect that the advancements they are making have substantially improved the job market in the NEK. EB5 money isn't about perfect competition among businesses in a single market... it is about creating significant economic development in areas that could use more/better jobs. That in turn could actually help improve prospects for other resorts if more residents have more disposable income that gets recycled into the local economy. 

Of course, as TTB notes below, EB5 money isn't government money nor free, it is a government created economic development program for foreign investors. You really need to look at this as investments that carry risk. If Jay Peak fails, then the EB5 folks don't get their Visas or their money. They buy into the program because they have evaluated Jay's business plan and think it is a sound investment.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 22, 2012)

so does anyone know what the recourse is in 3-5 years when/if 10,000 jobs can't/aren't filled.  A foreign investor loses a chunk of change, thats it?  The infrastructure they are scrambling to erect isn't going anywhere.  Seems pretty win/win.  Curious what the down side is not attaining their job criteria.

Ginn doesn't count?  Didn't they redo the base lodge, Tamarack, yurt, etc?


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## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2012)

Sorry TB, but all that changing of hands most definitely counts, especially Ginn. Most deals are with friends of some sort when we are talking executives here. 

Kingdom, Ive been asking the same question throughout the thread, noone seems to know. That infastructure can deteriorate rapidly though, which pretty much leaves you looking like Berlin NH. 

Riv, your touching on politics a bit, and if anything, our country is where it is today because for the most part, the govt stayed out of things. 

This still reeks of ASC, which everyone thought was solid at one point as well.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Sorry TB, but all that changing of hands most definitely counts, especially Ginn. Most deals are with friends of some sort when we are talking executives here.



My point is that there was nobody else, but BMA, who wanted (or needed) Burke to continue to operate. I don't think we are going to see them sell the place in 2012 and recoup their money (probably with some losses honestly) and then turn around and spend more money to buy it back later.  Maybe they are going to do that, but honestly they could have done EB-5 themselves (and FWIW they were trying) and/or retained ownership.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> so does anyone know what the recourse is in 3-5 years when/if 10,000 jobs can't/aren't filled. A foreign investor loses a chunk of change, thats it? The infrastructure they are scrambling to erect isn't going anywhere. Seems pretty win/win. Curious what the down side is not attaining their job criteria.



Presumably the project loses its qualification for EB-5 and the investors can't get their green cards. As to if they get their investment back, that is purely dependent on the project succeeding and, like any other investment, there is a risk of losing that investment. 



> Ginn doesn't count? Didn't they redo the base lodge, Tamarack, yurt, etc?



Read my post again. AdironRider thinks that there are folks who would be interested in buying Burke and that Stenger et al are going to flip it.  My point was that this is not the case because from 2000-2012 Burke was owned by BMA related folks who owned it primarily at first to keep BMA in business, and then later to try and develop it. Ginn was brought in by those folks to develop the place and it didn't work. Now obviously we don't know what the future will bring, but if history says anything it is that there are no real other interested players who want Burke (except Stenger and company who bought it as an investment for their EB-5 funds). There is no line of interested buyers to indicate that Stenger et al are simply going to flip it.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 22, 2012)

pretty easy to be optimistic with other peoples money I suppose then TB.

Infrastructure will be put in. How they pay for running this bigger and better mess is my concern.

Maybe they can adjust some loopholes and people can get green cards for buying season passes and apres ski beers.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2012)

kingdom-tele said:


> pretty easy to be optimistic with other peoples money I suppose then TB.
> 
> Infrastructure will be put in. How they pay for running this bigger and better mess is my concern.
> 
> Maybe they can adjust some loopholes and people can get green cards for buying season passes and apres ski beers.



Having access to capital is a good thing for the area and yes, investing in it is a risk. There is inherent risk with every investment, including this one.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 22, 2012)

I just hope we're not having the conversation in 5 years when QBurke isn't meeting the bottom line and since no one is interested in ski "areas" anymore they close it down vs manage their risk.  but that would never happen. unprecedented even.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> It was not you that got it wrong.  I was responding to Benedict's comments.



When I said, 



> "free" government money (which isnt free)



it was tongue in cheek, hence the quotes around free (there is no such thing as free money), but it is a government pass-through.  In other words, this is a market disturbance that would not happen without direct government intervention.  And I fully admit that maybe I will be 100% wrong, but I've been a (dorky) student of markets for a while now, it's a subject that interests me, and I think that in a vast majority of cases even with good intentions, the results of large synthetic market interventions tend to range from poor to very poor.  



riverc0il said:


> EB5 money isn't about perfect competition among businesses in a single market... *it is about creating significant economic development in areas that could use more/better jobs.* That in turn could actually help improve prospects for other resorts if more residents have more disposable income that gets recycled into the local economy.



I know, and here's where I'll sound like the bad guy, but my guess is it's oversold.  These things nearly always are.  As someone who has had to count jobs "created or saved" from the recent Economic Stimulus money, you wouldnt even BELIEVE the intentional-fraud that went on to over-count and boost the jobs numbers reported.  The other thing that tends to get oversold with these things is that the "jobs created" tend to be low-paying jobs: waitresses, maids, cooks etc...   Dont get me wrong, any job is a good job in this economy, I'm just saying I wouldnt believe the milk and honey accounting that tends to be initially reported with these things.  



riverc0il said:


> *You really need to look at this as investments that carry risk. If Jay Peak fails, then the EB5 folks don't get their Visas or their money.* *They buy into the program because they have evaluated Jay's business plan and think it is a sound investment.*



A very good point.  Alternatively, they could be so rich that they just dont care?  Personally, if I weren't very rich and just didnt care, I wouldn't invest in Jay Peak for the simple reason that it's private and so I presume there's very limited transparency, but to each their own.  I dont know if it was mentioned on this board or not, but earlier this year a JP EB-5 Visa broker_ pulled out _because they lost confidence in JP's accounting and/or ability to ever pay back investors (link below).  Don't know what ever happened with this (havent seen any updates), but if this Rapid Visa accusation is false?  Jay Peak should sue them given the severity of the accusation.

http://eb5info.web11.hubspot.com/bid/126868/EB-5-Visa-Agent-Broker-Rapid-Visas-denounces-Jay-Peak


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## riverc0il (Oct 25, 2012)

BenedictGomez, why would it matter if they are so rich they just don't care? In that case, they are waving money at Jay Peak and that money is creating jobs, regardless of how you count them or what level jobs they are. While I agree with you that it is easy to over sell the creation of jobs, especially good paying ones, I think we can both agree that considering the expansion that Jay Peak has done, they have probably created a considerable amount of mid-level management positions and at least a few higher level manager positions. They essentially opened three brand new facilities that could be independent businesses of their own and they need to be staffed 24/7 year round with big bumps on the weekend. And again, you can't compare this to stimulus money, it is investment money. Those that would eschew government stimulus for economic development should be in love with this type of investment plan for said development. There really is no downside and there is a major economic impact, whether or not it is as large as claimed can be debated, but you can't argue that it is insignificant.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 25, 2012)

VT rate now $52.

Guess JPR found their way to meet the bottom line.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 25, 2012)

However, FWIW, the Vermonter rate is now good on Saturdays. 
Unfortunately, I don't see any mention of Ski+Ride NEK style (the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket). All half day tickets currently appear to be $52 (which is the same as the full day VT'r ticket).

Kids under 5 ski free 

At this point I may have to plead my case for buying a season pass. It would only take 15 days of sking to pay for itself. Or only 13 days if I pay the full $70 to ski 5 days during holiday periods.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 25, 2012)

makes sense I suppose NEK, Burke is true VT skiing, being just north of ordinary, and "local" mountain it should cost more.
Nice to see them really going out of their way to make skiing accessible for local families on a budget who don't need the fanfare.

We will be going to Owl's Head this year.


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## nekgirl (Oct 25, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> However, FWIW, the Vermonter rate is now good on Saturdays.
> Unfortunately, I don't see any mention of Ski+Ride NEK style (the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket). All half day tickets currently appear to be $52 (which is the same as the full day VT'r ticket).
> 
> Kids under 5 ski free
> ...



Hi There from_the_NEK, 
Not to worry, we still plan on the SKi & Ride NEK Style this winter-13 seasons strong!   Our webmaster is busy making the winter change-overs, so it will be posted soon.  In the meantime, think cold, snowy thoughts!  

See you soon, 
Hannah Collins
Burke Mountain


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 25, 2012)

that is great news

thanks for the info nekgirl


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 25, 2012)

Yes, that is good news. Thanks Hanna!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> it was tongue in cheek, hence the quotes around free (there is no such thing as free money), but it is a government pass-through. In other words, this is a market disturbance that would not happen without direct government intervention. And I fully admit that maybe I will be 100% wrong, but I've been a (dorky) student of markets for a while now, it's a subject that interests me, and I think that in a vast majority of cases even with good intentions, the results of large synthetic market interventions tend to range from poor to very poor.



I hate to say it, but "direct government intervention" in the markets is a fact of life and I think your definition is pretty broad. Your definition is pretty broad. If it wasn't for some kind of "government intervention," Killington, Jay, Burke, and Stowe would not exist at all because the Vermont state government funded construction of the base roads and even some of the base lodges. With Stowe and Burke, the CCC funded by the feds in the 1930's cut the trails. And without government intevention more recently, Stowe would be gone (its owner, AIG, was bailed out).

I get what you are saying, but there has been a lot of "government involvement" with many other resorts as well...and I won't even get into the "evil triangle of ski areas" argument.  :lol:


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> And without government intevention more recently, Stowe would be gone (its owner, AIG, was bailed out).



Saying Stowe would be gone would be a bit of a stretch. Someone would have bought it (under foreclosure?) had AIG not been bailed out. 
However, AIG was able to spin off a new company that technically now owns the mtn, protecting it from the lenders and enabling it to remain open under the greater AIG umbrella.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Saying Stowe would be gone would be a bit of a stretch. Someone would have bought it (under foreclosure?) had AIG not been bailed out.
> However, AIG was able to spin off a new company that technically now owns the mtn, protecting it from the lenders and enabling it to remain open under the greater AIG umbrella.




Maybe yes, maybe no.  My point is that even small the government action was involved with Stowe.


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## DJAK (Oct 25, 2012)

Not a big announcement, but relevant to the thread perhaps:

http://www.skitheeast.net/posts/id/1765057752/on-patrol-30-years-at-burke



> There may be more (and bigger) news to come, but to start getting us all reacquainted, I caught up with their longtime Patrol Director John Worth. Regardless of investments and press releases, what makes the skiing matter is the heart and soul of the local communities, the people who live and breathe the mountain operation day to day and the fun we all get to share when we're there. That's why we work to bring you the local stories and people you don't get otherwise....


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

DJAK said:


> Not a big announcement, but relevant to the thread perhaps:
> 
> http://www.skitheeast.net/posts/id/1765057752/on-patrol-30-years-at-burke



John is a big reason why the Kingdom Trails even exist.


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## SIKSKIER (Oct 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> John is a big reason why the Kingdom Trails even exist.



Big being the key word.John stayed at my old skihouse in Franconia one weekend.He is a big man.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> BenedictGomez, *why would it matter if they are so rich they just don't care? In that case, they are waving money at Jay Peak and that money is creating jobs*, regardless of how you count them or what level jobs they are.



That was my point, that if you're so rich you likely look at it as, here's my 1/2 million dollars, lets talk immigration, and not even care if Jay Peak is ever able to repay you.  I actually dont like this either, the fact that you can just wave $500,000 and skip to the head of the line past tens-of-thousands patiently awaiting the normal legal process , but it is what it is I guess and the $ benefit trumps the line.



riverc0il said:


> While I agree with you that it is easy to over sell the creation of jobs, especially good paying ones, I think we can both agree that considering the expansion that Jay Peak has done, they have probably created a considerable amount of mid-level management positions and at least a few higher level manager positions. They essentially opened three brand new facilities that could be independent businesses of their own and they need to be staffed 24/7 year round with big bumps on the weekend. And again, you can't compare this to stimulus money, it is investment money.* Those that would eschew government stimulus for economic development should be in love with this type of investment plan for said development. There really is no downside* and there is a major economic impact, whether or not it is as large as claimed can be debated, but you can't argue that it is insignificant.



I agree with most everything you said in the above (though I assure you the jobs numbers will 100% be fudged), except the bolded. 

 So often when you have these massive artificial infusions of money into a project and/or area it nearly always looks good, even great, right up until the point it doesn't.  How will this affect Smuggler's Notch, was just one example I gave.  But in most cases, if there are any financial or other negatives, they are usually unforeseen.  I do love Jay Peak and hope this all works out for them, but some of this stuff seems puzzling to me from a financial perspective.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree with most everything you said in the above (though I assure you the jobs numbers will 100% be fudged), except the bolded.
> 
> So often when you have these massive artificial infusions of money into a project and/or area it nearly always looks good, even great, right up until the point it doesn't. How will this affect Smuggler's Notch, was just one example I gave. But in most cases, if there are any financial or other negatives, they are usually unforeseen. I do love Jay Peak and hope this all works out for them, but some of this stuff seems puzzling to me from a financial perspective.



As you said, you're not the first to question JPR's plan and financial soundness.  That report (I think you mentioned) has not gotten much traction for whatever reason.  Bill Stenger says it is sour grapes.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 25, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> That was my point, that if you're so rich you likely look at it as, here's my 1/2 million dollars, lets talk immigration, and not even care if Jay Peak is ever able to repay you.  I actually dont like this either, the fact that you can just wave $500,000 and skip to the head of the line past tens-of-thousands patiently awaiting the normal legal process , but it is what it is I guess and the $ benefit trumps the line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



read anything about the history of the EB-5 program and that seems to be its beauty, the job creation has such little criteria they can seemingly make up whatever they want.

I guess they just need to keep building massive buildings and adding more shit. As long as they build they can probably justify their workforce.  10,000 jobs. Thats equal to 14% of the NEK population. Gonna take a serious influx of people to meet that.

Wonder if the realtors are included in the job creation statistic?


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## AdironRider (Oct 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> As you said, you're not the first to question JPR's plan and financial soundness.  That report (I think you mentioned) has not gotten much traction for whatever reason.  Bill Stenger says it is sour grapes.



If anyone's defense is "sour grapes", thats a bad sign if you ask me.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> If anyone's defense is "sour grapes", thats a bad sign if you ask me.




I've paraphrased his response.  IIRC he only replied that they were a consultant on the project and was later let go.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I've paraphrased his response.  IIRC* he only replied that they were a consultant on the project and was later let go*.



No, they were an agent/broker for the EB-5, but were they let go?  I thought they were the ones who left Jay Peak voluntarily, not the other way around.   Which is part of why it seemed so strange.  

It would be a bit like a sugar factory telling a giant company like Hershey it refused to sell them their sugar anymore.   Poor analogy, but the point is, when you're the one who's livelihood is getting paid for a good or service, you're usually not the one who terminates the relationship.  Add to that the unusually harsh language of the letter criticizing JP's financials, and it raised some eyebrows.  Does anyone know if Jay Peak sued them?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, they were an agent/broker for the EB-5, but were they let go? I thought they were the ones who left Jay Peak voluntarily, not the other way around? Which is part of why it seemed so strange. It would be a bit like a sugar factory telling a giant company like Hershey it refused to sell them their sugar anymore. Poor analogy, but the point is, when you're the one who's livelihood is getting paid for a good or service, you're usually not the one who terminates the relationship.




Maybe you saw something I didn't.  I know that the VT media had very little on it...and the JPR response was pretty much that the folks who left (or were let go) were not happy.


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 26, 2012)

Some interesting numbers.  Already having trouble filling positions! I was surprised to hear the jobs were filled with locals, seemed like a lot of people live outside the NEK.  If they can pull this off it certainly sounds region altering.

http://newportvermontdailyexpress.com/content/workers-wanted


A big thank you for keeping the sunday rates at $25.

Buy one get one free with QC license? Who was wondering what market they are trying to tap into?


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## fbrissette (Oct 26, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> If anyone's defense is "sour grapes", thats a bad sign if you ask me.



There are really only 2 ways of looking at this:

1- Jay Peak is not doing well, financials statements are illegally doctored and, Rapid Visas, a business with Jay Peak as its main revenue source, was right in ringing the alarm bell.

2- Jay Peak decided to keep a larger share (or the entire share) of the cut it was giving Rapid Visas for acting on its behalf as the EB5 program representative/prospector.  Rapid Visa was pissed and got back at Jay Peak by sending en email with undocumented allegations.


Considering that absolutely nothing came out of it, I would think that the latter is the most likely scenario.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 26, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> *Maybe you saw something I didn't.  I know that the VT media had very little on it.*..and the JPR response was pretty much that the folks who left (or were let go) were not happy.



If you GOOG the visa place with JP, you'll come up with some interesting stuff.  The state apparently afterwards sent someone in and was satisfied with JP's forward financial ability.




fbrissette said:


> Considering that absolutely nothing came out of it, I would think that the latter is the most likely scenario.



That's why I'm wondering why JP didn't sue?  Maybe JP is really laid back and figured a lawsuit would just bring more unwarranted and unwanted attention, but IMO that's a mistake.  When you don't sue if your business suffers such an attack on the very heart of your financial credibility, you only add credence to the attacker's claim.  Especially given the fact people don't usually make damning financial accusations like this if they arent true (for very obvious legal and ethical reasons).  I dont know what to think one way or the other, but the entire matter is very strange.



kingdom-tele said:


> Already having trouble filling positions! I was surprised to hear the jobs were filled with locals, seemed like a lot of people live outside the NEK. * If they can pull this off it certainly sounds region altering.*



As someone familiar with the biotech industry, I'd have fairly big concerns with the likelihood of the long-term viability of that company simply because the truth is small biotechs often either fail or the ones that succeed usually get gobbled up by bigger fish.  They got $100 Million?   Great for the company though, cant deny that.  Not coincidentally, that biotech companies President of US ops is a Jay Peak co-owner.  Incestuous much?

http://investing.businessweek.com/r...eviousCapId=737809&previousTitle=BIOHEART INC


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2012)

With feedback from Steve in the Jay Peak Challenge thread grading my thoughts on the future hotel/lodges at Burke at a C+. I had a few minutes to revise. And I found this on the Jay Peak website...



> _*PROJECT: *Burke Mountain Resort
> Timeline-_ 2013 through 2015
> _Total Investment-_ $108 million
> _Highlights- _Burke Mountain is receiving over $1 million of snowmaking upgrades for the upcoming season. The most important addition Burke Mountain and its region needs is on-mountain accommodations. The new ownership company will construct over the next three years four mountain lodge facilities. (Each will look much like the Tram Haus Lodge at Jay Peak.) Two will be built just below the mid-Burke detachable quad.  A third at the site of the current mid-Burke Lodge and the last at the base area near the Tamarack Grill.



IMHO I would not build a new lodge exactly where the current mid-lodge is located. As it is currently set up, coming of the East side of the mtn you hit the flats in front of the mid-lodge and have to navigate/skate/pole push through people going every which direction and skis that are all over the ground (the owners of which are inside). Once through those obstacles you then have to go around the far side of the lodge to get back to a downhill slope that brings you back to the lift. It is quite a cluster on weekends. 

My new thinking has the Mid-lodge completely removed as well as the Bear Den :sad:. The new Hotel/lodge is shifted back toward the parking lot and angled to create more space between the slope and the lodge as well as faster/easier access to the lift.

If anyone is listening, please Keep the Bear Den open! Even if it has to be relocated.
This bar is far superior to the Golden Eagle that was scrapped at Jay as part of their redesign. No one complained very loudly about that.












Note that I didn't touch the hotels below the lift. There are a million different senarios on how those could be laid out so I'm not going to bother.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

Interesting.  I hope that they take apart the Bear Den Lodge and attach it to the new building.  That is the real deal.  Folks spend millions to try and replicate that now.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2012)

Bear Den Solution...






Locating the Bear Den here would absolutely kick ass. The outside seating area would get sun all day long and the location right next to the lift would almost be like tailgating.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Bear Den Solution...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




:lol: I love how the photoshopped buildings are all crooked.  Jokes aside though that is a unique idea.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

I wonder if Jay would have purchased Burke if the new HSQ to the summit was not in.  I can't emphasize again what a game changer that lift was for them.   They went from only slow fixed grip lifts to probably being the only 2,000+ vertical foot mountain, if not one of the few places, that is completely accessed by high speed lifts.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:  I love how the photoshopped buildings are all crooked.



Hey! I spent 5 minutes on that


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if Jay would have purchased Burke if the new HSQ to the summit was not in.  I can't emphasize again what a game changer that lift was for them.   They went from only slow fixed grip lifts to probably being the only 2,000+ vertical foot mountain, if not one of the few places, that is completely accessed by high speed lifts.



Technically the Willoughby quad is still there. I put the over/under at that lift being moved to the East Bowl within 3 years at 2:1.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hey! I spent 5 minutes on that



I have to give you a hard time.  :lol:  

And it will be interesting to see if they do make a terrain expansion over there and actually put the lift in.  I wonder if they will use that lift.  My understanding is that it will need a lot of upgrades if it is to be reused because a lot of the safety technology is currently grandfathered on it.  That said, they can reuse a lot of it (chairs, sheeve trains, cross arms, terminals, etc).


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## AdironRider (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if Jay would have purchased Burke if the new HSQ to the summit was not in.  I can't emphasize again what a game changer that lift was for them.   They went from only slow fixed grip lifts to probably being the only 2,000+ vertical foot mountain, if not one of the few places, that is completely accessed by high speed lifts.



Outside of Wildcat, I cant think of anywhere else. Sugarloaf comes pretty close (definitely more actual skiable terrain) off the superquad, but you cant get everywhere, notably the snowfields off it.


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## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Outside of Wildcat, I cant think of anywhere else. Sugarloaf comes pretty close (definitely more actual skiable terrain) off the superquad, but you cant get everywhere, notably the snowfields off it.



Also the king pine area and the new Bracket basin


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Outside of Wildcat, I cant think of anywhere else. Sugarloaf comes pretty close (definitely more actual skiable terrain) off the superquad, but you cant get everywhere, notably the snowfields off it.




Yeah, I was thinking about it.  Wildcat is one, Stowe maybe (depending on how we define it), Stratton possibly, and maybe Bretton Woods, but it is not above 2,000 vert IIRC.


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## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, I was thinking about it.  Wildcat is one, Stowe maybe (depending on how we define it), Stratton possibly, and maybe Bretton Woods, but it is not above 2,000 vert IIRC.



To include Stowe you would have to include the gondola. If that is the case do you include Cannon with the tram? Also Loon


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> To include Stowe you would have to include the gondola. If that is the case do you include Cannon with the tram? Also Loon



Mittersill is primarily accessed via a fixed grip double, so that would not count.

I don't want to get lost in the weeds on this folks....


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## AdironRider (Nov 7, 2012)

I would have counted Cannon, but to ski the majority of the terrain off the Tram results in you ending up in a second base area...


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## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> A gondola is distinct from a tram IMHO.  Splitting hairs, I know.  But more to the point, Mittersill is primarily accessed via a fixed grip double, so that would not count.



Then Loon?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Then Loon?



I'd say no because you have to ride the connector lift to access the new pod of terrain and IIRC that is a fixed grip lift.


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## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I'd say no because you have to ride the connector lift to access the new pod of terrain and IIRC that is a fixed grip lift.



IIRC?

Also with Stowe the Toll road only has a double.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> IIRC?
> 
> Also with Stowe the Toll road only has a double.



If I Recall Correctly.  The last time I skied at Loon that area was not open.  

And that is true with Stowe, so that would be off the list I guess.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Bear Den Solution...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The more I think about this, the more I like it. Hopefully someone from Jay Peak sees this 

Maybe I should PM Steve.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> The more I think about this, the more I like it. Hopefully someone from Jay Peak sees this
> 
> Maybe I should PM Steve.



Remind them again that you are the poster child for Burke...


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2012)

Well, I've been playing again 

I know I only got a C+ grade on my Lodge/Hotel layout. 

However, the future of East Bowl hasn't really been discussed much since the new ownership took over. "Expanding" terrain on this part of the mountain would be far easier to do than creating a entire new trail pod/base area (aka Jay's West Bowl).

The liftline alignment is based on the 2005 master plans submitted to Act 250 by Ginn http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/Planning/7C0206-13/Burke.Act250app.Exhibit1E(d)-1.PDF. The plan was that the old fixed grip Willoughby quad would be moved to this part of the mountain. The length of the lift is nearly perfect. That master plan had A LOT of trail widening throughout the mountain and several large trails cutting through the middle of East Bowl. I didn't draw that stuff in in the hope that it never happens. I have drawn in the current marked glades that exist in East Bowl (green polygons) as well as potential cut trails that return to the base of the lift. Hopefully the future of East Bowl is that it is turned into one BIG glade instead of trails.

This movie should be a bit smoother then the one I made for the Jay thread. I tried a new approach to moving the view around and it seems to have worked pretty well.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 15, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well, I've been playing again



need more intermediate terrain NEK:smile:

gotta pay da bills


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting.  No Cutter development or West Peak.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  No Cutter development or West Peak.



Cutter development would be pretty far down the places to develop. It would all be green trails and Burke already has a all green pod a the Sherburne base area. The primary reason that was ever proposed was for Ginn's big (private) baselodge area.

West Peak has a ton of potential. However, it doesn't hold snow as well as East Bowl.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2012)

Looking at it a bit more closely, West Bowl would be rather hard to layout trails in due to the prevailing fallines all funnelling into the central drainage. The liftline and ridge trail would be pretty easy to do. You would have to get pretty creative with everything inbetween. Plus you also have Jungle and Birches which couldn't be cut up into trails


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## oldtimer (Nov 15, 2012)

NEK--
you are being way too modest.  A- / B+ for the Lodge layout graphic.  

East side-  me thinks you have it about right.  I would think they would like to link the bottom of that lift to a beginner / housing access lift up from Cutter.  BUT-  do they have access to the chunk of land directly below the East Bowl runout?

I love your use of the technology.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2012)

That grade was from Steve Wright of Jay Peak's marketing dept. He has seen the preliminary plans. 

They do own the area below the East Bowl lift down to Pinkham Road. Are there still plans to develop over there?


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## riverc0il (Nov 15, 2012)

Nice topic, FTN. It is interesting that we haven't heard anything beyond the new hotels. The problem with moving the Willoughby Quad is then there is no backup if the HSQ goes down. The Poma used to be fine, but Burke is getting more visits and the Poma isn't going to cut it on the weekend any more, especially with shared passes to Jay and more guests that the hotels bring in. I think keeping Willoughby where it is actually makes sense for QBert since it costs nothing extra and gives them a backup summit lift. 

If East Bowl goes, then all gladed would be INCREDIBLE! But I think kingdom-tele nails it when he sardonically commented that they...


kingdom-tele said:


> need more intermediate terrain
> 
> gotta pay da bills


And honestly, it would be hard to blame them for adding in some gentler rolling blues. Burke's blues ski harder than most and Burke does lack in moderately pitched blues with trail integrity (i.e. good top to bottom mellow blue cruisers). And of course, those types of skiers "pay da bills." 

But it certainly would be wonderful for the East Bowl to be billed in the same lights as Casablanca at Saddleback or Brackett Basin at Sugarloaf.


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## xlr8r (Nov 16, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Nice topic, FTN. It is interesting that we haven't heard anything beyond the new hotels. The problem with moving the Willoughby Quad is then there is no backup if the HSQ goes down. The Poma used to be fine, but Burke is getting more visits and the Poma isn't going to cut it on the weekend any more, especially with shared passes to Jay and more guests that the hotels bring in. I think keeping Willoughby where it is actually makes sense for QBert since it costs nothing extra and gives them a backup summit lift.



If they moved willoughby to east bowl, you could still use that lift as a backup to get to the summit.  You would just need a way to get people to the base of east bowl from mid burke, which the poma might be able to handle.  Even better would be if a chair was put in where the old dipper poma was.  This would be nice low intermediate area which burke lacks for skiers that have mastered the sherburne area, but are not ready for the summit.  You could then use this new chair to get to east bowl, and eastbowl to get to the summit.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2012)

sardonically? 

I am embracing the evolution riv.  you know what they say, evolve or die.

If its one thing burke lacks its intermediate skiing. With all of its intense steeps, narrow style "old" new england ski trails, and tightly spaced glades it really does scream EXPERTS ONLY. Ever watch an intermediate try and herringbone the entrance to east bowl?  A new lift and trail cutting through those expert style glades would remedy that and spare the intermediate the 10 steps and monotonous poling it takes to get to the look out. Never mind the exit, right.

I would suggest some type of lift with a bubble, similar to  Mont Ste Anne. Is there a bigger deterrent to selling tickets and hotel rooms than the cold winter wind? I for one was appalled how chilly the new HSQ felt. The wind can really make you uncomfortable, especially an intermediate skier.

whatever they do, they should make sure it is exactly the same ski experience you can get at any other intermediate style mountain zone. nothing is as important as sculpting the environment to cater to the masses. its a challenge to have to adapt and learn from a variety of experiences.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2012)

Anyone biting?


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2012)

Damn it, I had a long post all typed up and then overwrote it with a quote... :angry:

I really don't think the terrain in East Bowl would be any better for building "good top to bottom mellow blue cruisers" than the rest of the mountain. The upper part of the bowl is pretty steep. Any trails coming off of the upper traverse would likely be steep enough to be Black at the top and then Blue down lower.  The easiest way to get a Blue trail over there would be to widen and homogenize the actual East Bowl trail. I hate to say it but if sacrificing the East Bowl trail to the Blue Cruiser crowd so that the rest of the bowl stays glades, then I'm up for it. I may also be willing to sacrifice Caveman on the other side of the bowl as well (a narrower version of the "E8" trail on the Act250 plan). The liftline would cut the current glade in two anyway. This would make a good trail to connect the East Bowl pod to Upper Dipper . 



xlr8r said:


> If they moved willoughby to east bowl, you could still use that lift as a backup to get to the summit.  You would just need a way to get people to the base of east bowl from mid burke, which the poma might be able to handle.  Even better would be if a chair was put in where the old dipper poma was.  This would be nice low intermediate area which burke lacks for skiers that have mastered the sherburne area, but are not ready for the summit.  You could then use this new chair to get to east bowl, and eastbowl to get to the summit.



That makes a lot of sense.

If they leave the Willoughby quad where it is, it will sit there and rust into a worthless piece of junk. It is too redundant, if that makes any sense.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2012)

NEK - could easily make the upper bowl blue terrain.

Switchback, switchback, switchback. Would maximize trees cut and maximize acreage for marketability.

homogenized. The new black.

PS:good luck this weekend.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2012)

Intermediates don't like switchbacks. They like to be able to see the bottom of the trail from the top. That way they know what they are gettingn into.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2012)

mirrors at the turns?

funhouse style.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2012)

As long as there is a second mirror for the Bogner crowd to admire their technique in.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2012)

xlr8r said:


> If they moved willoughby to east bowl, you could still use that lift as a backup to get to the summit. You would just need a way to get people to the base of east bowl from mid burke, which the poma might be able to handle. Even better would be if a chair was put in where the old dipper poma was. This would be nice low intermediate area which burke lacks for skiers that have mastered the sherburne area, but are not ready for the summit. You could then use this new chair to get to east bowl, and eastbowl to get to the summit.



Yeah I agree.  Back to future by having a lift there like back in the day.  Honestly, when Jay replaces the Jet, refurbish that lift and install it on the old Dipper Lift Line.  Done.  Good call on redundancy as well.  I also have a strong hunch that when they go to consider moving the Willoughby they will find that the cost will be a lot more than they think because a lot of the components will need to be upgraded due to code or technology.  That is already a retrofitted double that was done in, what, 1989 or so?  Still, an oldie but a goodie!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2012)

And those mirrors need to make the skiers look thinner, younger, and faster.  I'm sure that FTN is getting to work on those!


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I agree.  Back to future by having a lift there like back in the day.  Honestly, when Jay replaces the Jet, refurbish that lift and install it on the old Dipper Lift Line.  Done.  Good call on redundancy as well.  I also have a strong hunch that when they go to consider moving the Willoughby they will find that the cost will be a lot more than they think because a lot of the components will need to be upgraded due to code or technology.  That is already a retrofitted double that was done in, what, 1989 or so?  Still, an oldie but a goodie!



Has Fixed Grip technology changed that much? The only features remaining from the double are the lift towers correct? And as long as those are solid they should be reusable on the new line (assuming the tower heights are compatible with the new line's geometry). 
Actually moving the lift shouldn't be that hard. The existing summit terminal is only about 300 ft from the new location. A plan for flying towers from their current location to a location on the new line may also be doable. Again, depending on geometry, a few tower tops/sheave trains may need to be mixed and matched with the towers to make it work.

And again, on the topic of a lift on the old Dipper line. I know I panned the idea in the past, but when East Bowl is taken into account, it does make sense.
Theoretically, that line could be extended up across Big Dipper to just behind the pavilion. This would add 260+ feet of vert to the lift and provide access to the trails below Doug's Drop (and even Lower Warren's way). Throbulator would also be accessable. However, this would also add 1000' feet of liftline length to a likely fixed grip lift making the entire line roughly 3000' long. Would people deal with the extra 2-3 minutes of lift ride time for the extra terrain options? Additionally, getting up to that ridge of Big Dipper potentially opens up the lift to a lot more wind issues.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Has Fixed Grip technology changed that much? The only features remaining from the double are the lift towers correct? And as long as those are solid they should be reusable on the new line (assuming the tower heights are compatible with the new line's geometry).
> Actually moving the lift shouldn't be that hard. The existing summit terminal is only about 300 ft from the new location. A plan for flying towers from their current location to a location on the new line may also be doable. Again, depending on geometry, a few tower tops/sheave trains may need to be mixed and matched with the towers to make it work.
> 
> And again, on the topic of a lift on the old Dipper line. I know I panned the idea in the past, but when East Bowl is taken into account, it does make sense.



From what I understand they'd be looking at having to replace some of the towers, upgrade the sheeve trains and safety equipment/safety breakers, upgrade the drive, the line (of course), as well as some other electrical components.  So what would probably get transferred would be the carriers, some towers that were reinforced, some cross-arms, the base terminal, the summit bullwheel, which is new, and probably a few other components.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2012)

I would still think that would be quite a bit cheaper than buying a new lift.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2012)

I think there would be some cost savings, but maybe not as much as they'd hope.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 29, 2012)

New mountainside windows and seating in The Bear Den. Is this a temporary investment or does it mean something else for the future of the Bear Den?

From Burke's Facebook page:


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2012)

Those new windows look nice.  If they are going to keep Mid-Burke, it will need a tremendous amount of work.  I imagine that they will try to incorporate this into some other building.  

And here is the Cal Rec on the opening:  http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=87391


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Those new windows look nice.  If they are going to keep Mid-Burke, it will need a tremendous amount of work.  I imagine that they will try to incorporate this into some other building.
> 
> And here is the Cal Rec on the opening:  http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=87391


I think the lodge part will see the wreckingball. As we have discussed, the Bear Den shouldn't be too hard to move and/or fix-up.

My wishes concerning the Bear Den:
#1. Keep it! Even if it has to be moved somewhere.
#2. Make sure the fireplace keeps burning real wood. These gas fireplaces that Jay keeps inserting at that mtn make things feel fake. I don't care what the fire marshall says, there has to be a loophole for a historic building. There has been a wood fire in that fireplace for how many years without an issue? If cutting firewood is an issue, I'm sure a small legion of bar patrons would be happy to spend an afternoon cutting a splitting a firewood store for the winter.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> #2.* Make sure the fireplace keeps burning real wood. These gas fireplaces that Jay keeps inserting at that mtn make things feel fake.* I don't care what the fire marshall says, there has to be a loophole for a historic building. There has been a wood fire in that fireplace for how many years without an issue? If cutting firewood is an issue, I'm sure a small legion of bar patrons would be happy to spend an afternoon cutting a splitting a firewood store for the winter.



So true.  It's so incredibly obvious isnt it?  You walk into a place that has a genuine fire now (restaurants, etc...) and it just puts a smile on your face.  Sometimes the small things in life matter.   Dont even get me started on Duraflame logs. lol


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## tarponhead (Dec 2, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think the lodge part will see the wreckingball. As we have discussed, the Bear Den shouldn't be too hard to move and/or fix-up.
> 
> My wishes concerning the Bear Den:
> #1. Keep it! Even if it has to be moved somewhere.
> #2. Make sure the fireplace keeps burning real wood. These gas fireplaces that Jay keeps inserting at that mtn make things feel fake. I don't care what the fire marshall says, there has to be a loophole for a historic building. There has been a wood fire in that fireplace for how many years without an issue? If cutting firewood is an issue, I'm sure a small legion of bar patrons would be happy to spend an afternoon cutting a splitting a firewood store for the winter.




#3 Keep the couch in front of the real fire place too!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2012)

My sources tell me that Stenger is proposing and indoor mountain biking park and tennis court for Burke.  And that RFID may be coming as soon as next year....


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## oldtimer (Dec 6, 2012)

indoor mtn bike park and tennis courts would be brilliant and relatively low cost.  Very much in the spirit of the area.  btw-  skiing there last weekend was remarkably good and crowd was decent by Burke standards.


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## Steve@jpr (Dec 6, 2012)

Indeed, I don't disagree with the improved-tone a natural fire sets vs that of a propane fired option but turning deaf to the Fire Marshall, in general, isn't a particularly good long term strategy.



BenedictGomez said:


> So true.  It's so incredibly obvious isnt it?  You walk into a place that has a genuine fire now (restaurants, etc...) and it just puts a smile on your face.  Sometimes the small things in life matter.   Dont even get me started on Duraflame logs. lol


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## AdironRider (Dec 6, 2012)

To be honest, in a ski lodge, as an owner, Id rather have gas. 

Wood fires are a labor suck. Not to mention one 5 year old accident away from burning the joint to the ground.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 6, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> To be honest, in a ski lodge, as an owner, Id rather have gas.
> 
> Wood fires are a labor suck. Not to mention one 5 year old accident away from burning the joint to the ground.



I'm just talking about the bar (Bear Den) in this case. Not too many 5 year olds running around in there.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2012)

The big reveal of preliminary plans is tonight at 6:00. Unfortunately, I can't go.

It will be interesting to see how the plan for four lodge/hotels has been modified for the indoor bike park and the tennis facility. Sound like one of the lodges/hotels may be dropped and another made larger than the original plan (that I have never seen). The Cal-Rec article hints that the park and tennis facilities could be glass enclosed structures similar to the Jay Peak waterpark.
Honestly, I would rather see something like that than a windowless warehouse style building.

Interestingly, I had talked to the new manager of our local Ice Arena about the feasibility of an indoor bike park in the ice arena in order to help the building generate revenue during the off season. She thought it might have potential. I suggested talking to the Kingdom Trails people to see about interest. However, now it sounds like that idea may be moot with the potential proposal for the development at Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2012)

Come on FTN what do we pay you the big bucks for?  

:lol:  

Hopefully the Cal Rec does not place this behind their paywall...assuming that they put the story on their website at all....


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## Zand (Dec 12, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> The big reveal of preliminary plans is tonight at 6:00. Unfortunately, I can't go.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the plan for four lodge/hotels has been modified for the indoor bike park and the tennis facility. Sound like one of the lodges/hotels may be dropped and another made larger than the original plan (that I have never seen). The Cal-Rec article hints that the park and tennis facilities could be glass enclosed structures similar to the Jay Peak waterpark.
> Honestly, I would rather see something like that than a windowless warehouse style building.
> ...



I'd go but I'll be doing the weather on News 7 at 5:30 so I wouldn't make it in time lol.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2012)

Will there be a News 7 crew there covering it? Make sure they get some good pictures of the plans


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2012)

Honestly the News 7 crew does a great job and I've loved being able to see and hear what is really going on up there.


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## Zand (Dec 12, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


> Will there be a News 7 crew there covering it? Make sure they get some good pictures of the plans



There was a story tonight announcing the meeting. I imagine someone went to cover it.


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## Masskier (Dec 13, 2012)

Any news from last night meeting?


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## fbrissette (Dec 13, 2012)

Nothing on Burke's website.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2012)

Masskier said:


> Any news from last night meeting?



I would have expected you to know anyways....


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2012)

The Burke article is behind the paywall, but here is the opening to the article from the Cal Rec:  



> BURKE -- Creating a conference center and hotel accommodations for hundreds of people at the Burke Mountain Resort, plus indoor and outdoor sports facilities, are part of the new master plan for the resort. The resort is now owned by Jay Peak's Bill Stenger, who is driving the plans with his partners.
> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Friday, December 14, 2012[/FONT]


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I finally found out some more details about the development plans at Burke.
The primary phase will consist of a duo of Hotel/lodges being built in the area just below the Mid-Burke Express (surprise!).







The two lodges will be connected in the middle and the entire structure will be 500' long by 70 feet wide. The mountain side of the building will show four stories, the downhill side will show five. I figure that makes for a build between 70-90 feet tall. This would be very similar to what you see on the Tram House at Jay. The parking area will be a garage constructed under the hotel. Additional parking would be available in the lots (most likely modified from their current layout) on the otherside of the small brook (leftside of the image below). A bridge would be built for people to walk across to the lodge(s) and the lift. So, it sounds like I wasn't too far off in the rendering I made previously. 












According to my sources, Stenger said they are still working on what to do with the existing Mid-Burke Lodge (and the Bear Den). So any plans for an additional lodge at mid-Burke is still up in the air.



The Burke Side Condo owners likely aren't going to be real happy about this. They are going from having a great view of the mountain to staring at the back side of a five story hotel. (edit: actually this isn't entirely true, as pointed out in a following post, these condos actually face away from the mountain.






It also sounds like my thoughts were fairly accurate concerning a new hotel/lodge being built at the base. It sounds like it would be on the other side of the Sherburne Express from the the base lodge. This is largely due to Burke Mountain not owning any other property in this area near the lift. The Condo Associations own a lot of the abutting property here. IMHO it is actually not a bad location for a hotel. It will be easy to get to and it won't block anyone's views. 
I still haven't heard where they plan to build indoor MTB park or the tennis facility. I'm thinking the bike park may be integrated with the new lower mountain lodge. This is the base for the lift served mountain bike trails an there is room to build here (if they cut some trees). In the picture below, the MTB park is in blue and the tennis in green. There has been talk that at this may be built in the same glass enclosed design that the waterpark at Jay is in. The Pump House waterpark is approx. 130' x 275' = 35,750 sq ft. However, after a bit of research. building the ""the world's largest indoor MTB park" (this is a phrase I've heard thrown around) would have to be a HUGE structure (unless it was multi-level). Ray's MTB park in Wisconsin is built in an old 110,000 sq ft vacant Menard's building. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/u...ukee-lets-mountain-bikers-ride-in-winter.html


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## Masskier (Jan 1, 2013)

The Mountain Brook Condos are positioned so from the living areas, decks, and patios you have a outstanding view of the Gap.  Most of them never had much a view of the mountain unless you are outside in the parking areas.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 2, 2013)

Masskier said:


> The Mountain Brook Condos are positioned so from the living areas, decks, and patios you have a outstanding view of the Gap.  Most of them never had much a view of the mountain unless you are outside in the parking areas.



You're right. Even looking at the picture above where I photoshopped in the tramhouse lodges, you can see the Mountain Brook condos only have a couple of small very windows looking toward the mtn. Others are behind the trees.


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## Masskier (Jan 13, 2013)

Anyone see yesterday's Cal Record.  Front page article and rendering of the new lodge, it's behind the pay wall so I can't post a link.  Also there are renderings and info in the real estate office at mid burke on display.


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## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2013)

Masskier said:


> Anyone see yesterday's Cal Record.  Front page article and rendering of the new lodge, it's behind the pay wall so I can't post a link.  Also there are renderings and info in the real estate office at mid burke on display.



I was just there yesterday and missed it - Damn


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

Masskier said:


> Anyone see yesterday's Cal Record.  Front page article and rendering of the new lodge, it's behind the pay wall so I can't post a link.  Also there are renderings and info in the real estate office at mid burke on display.



I procured a copy of the Cal-Rec. The one rendering printed in the paper looks almost exactly like my photoshopped picture and is described as a 116 unit hotel (58 rooms per side) that is 500' long by 70 wide. So no surprises there. Even right down to them stealing my idea to keep Willoughby Gap visible between the buildings :grin: :







However, the surprise from the article is that the Hotel is actually only part of Phase 1. The other part consists of:

 "Plans for modifications and additions to trails and lifts on the main face of the mountain, including improvements and expansion of the snowmaking system... and the first phase will also significantly expand the area of the East Bowl."

...Gulp... 
Phase 1 also discusses expanded parking to allow for 1.5 to 2 vehicles per suite.

Then there is "Phase 1a" that they hope to get approval for and start work on while Phase 1 is being constructed. This phase is still being "ironed out". Apparently they are planning to build a tennis, aquatic area that contains a olympic size pool and diving area somewhere on the property that, under the Ginn administration, was to be golf course. A "world class mountain biking center" is also planned but no details were given as to where this would be sited.

The additional 2 (80-100 unit) hotels are planned for a later phase.

Stenger is quoted: "the three elements of recreation that we are focusing on - tennis, diving, and the indoor biking facility will keep Burke busy year round which is critical to its success."

They want to have the hotel open by Fall of 2014 with ground breaking this spring.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

Diving?  

And we know that you are the real brains beyond the engineering/architecture for the place.


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## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> "Plans for modifications and additions to trails and lifts on the main face of the mountain, including improvements and expansion of the snowmaking system... and the first phase will also significantly expand the area of the East Bowl."



This is the part I am most interested in.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

I wonder if Stenger is trying to wrestle some of the tennis market away from Top Notch in Stowe? Top Notch has 6 outdoor and 4 indoor courts. 
How big would a "tennis facility" have to be? The outdoor side by side 4 court setup at LSC is roughly 200x125, and Top Notch's building is 212x120. 
The diving angle is a bit out of left field, but if you have the money to build a big fancy pool, you might as well make it unique.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> This is the part I am most interested in.



Yep... I wish the Cal-Rec would have included some more details/pictures about that. I'll have to inquire with my sources to see if they know any details


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> *The diving angle is a bit out of left field*




Which is par for the course lately.  

I mean, they're going to try to establish a biotech research + manufacturing plant in the middle of nowhere...... for technology that AFAIK isnt FDA approved yet, and research that is highly experimental.  Fingers crossed and everything, but I dont see that ending well.


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## AdironRider (Jan 15, 2013)

Diving, seriously? 

As a competitive swimmer and coach for over two decades, anyone whos anyone knows divers are flakes and primarily consist of the weird kids who need to fulfill an athletic credit or something. There are very few competitive, SERIOUS, divers out there. Not to knock those that are, its a very intricate sport, but the overall majority just dont give a rip. 

Furthermore, why would any diver actually worth his salt go to Burke when if they really are that serious, they're in Cali, Texas, or AZ training with the best coaches in the world. 

I thought they had lost it with 4 hotels with sub 100k skier visits, now its just confirmed theyve jumped the shark and all the "found money" they have in EB-5 and jading their business sense. Diving, sweet jesus.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

Tell us what you REALLY think  :lol::lol:


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## gregnye (Jan 15, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Diving, seriously?



"Build it and they shall come"--thats what they learned from the Jay Peak Waterpark. However, both Jay Peak and Burke should keep in mind that building more lifts and trails would also make more people come.


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## AdironRider (Jan 15, 2013)

gregnye said:


> "Build it and they shall come"--thats what they learned from the Jay Peak Waterpark. However, both Jay Peak and Burke should keep in mind that building more lifts and trails would also make more people come.



I had no qualms with the waterpark. THey deserve props for that one. 

But diving has a much smaller potential clientel pool than some kick ass waterslides. Lets be real here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> I had no qualms with the waterpark. THey deserve props for that one.
> 
> But diving has a much smaller potential clientel pool than some kick ass waterslides. Lets be real here.




I agree with this.  The waterpark has done phenominally well, all things considered.  But competitive diving?  Mountain biking, yes.  No brainer there.  Tennis, meh.  I just hope that they are not going too far out on a limb here.  Keep it real, keep it Burke.  Good skiing, good biking, add nice accomodations.


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## AdironRider (Jan 15, 2013)

Completely agree. While at first I wasnt sold on the MTB aspect being enough to fill the hotels, but in retrospect, thats a pretty solid plan. THe bike scene is gear hungry, and usually pretty well off, and history has shown they do spend dough. 

Divers though? Theres zero gear involved to sell retail. Again, most divers arent traveling to try a 10m high dive, well beacuse, its no different than the 10m closer to them. Diving is not a destination sport in the least. 

I can even see the tennis argument, Muffy and Duffy and all their sorority sisters can come and play, even better in those tight ass skirts. Its a well to do sport. 

Again, diving?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

Maybe instaed of diving they should build a freestyle ramp into a bubble pool like Lake Placid has, but inside.


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## AdironRider (Jan 15, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Maybe instaed of diving they should build a freestyle ramp into a bubble pool like Lake Placid has, but inside.



That would be kickass. I make the journey to the ones down near SLC usually once a year or so.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> That would be kickass. I make the journey to the ones down near SLC usually once a year or so.



There I go coming up with good idea again that is likely to show up in the next set of revised plans :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## riverc0il (Jan 15, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Diving?


Worked at Jay. Who would have thunk an Ice Rink in the middle of no where in the NEK would have been so successful? Slap a top notch facility onto a resort and look to attract off season and year round visitors. 

So long Burke, it was nice knowing you while you were an old school classic ski area. Unlike Jay, which was already a resort, any major base area development at Burke will alter the nature and feel of the place. Diving center, aquatic center, Olympic pool, and tennis courts? At least the mountain bike park fits with Kingdom Trails. The rest of it seems like a bit much. This stuff all seems like the antithesis of a quiet, low key, classic, and old school ski area... so I am sure they will all be widely successful.


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## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2013)

As for the diving maybe Lyndon State is going to start a dive team


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## AdironRider (Jan 15, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Worked at Jay. Who would have thunk an Ice Rink in the middle of no where in the NEK would have been so successful? Slap a top notch facility onto a resort and look to attract off season and year round visitors.
> 
> So long Burke, it was nice knowing you while you were an old school classic ski area. Unlike Jay, which was already a resort, any major base area development at Burke will alter the nature and feel of the place. Diving center, aquatic center, Olympic pool, and tennis courts? At least the mountain bike park fits with Kingdom Trails. The rest of it seems like a bit much. This stuff all seems like the antithesis of a quiet, low key, classic, and old school ski area... so I am sure they will all be widely successful.



I think comparing hockey from a New England state (let alone one spitting distance from Canada) to a diving facilty seems like a bit of a stretch. Outside of the severe northern Midwest, the Northeast is hockeytown USA.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Maybe instaed of diving they should build a freestyle ramp into a bubble pool like Lake Placid has, but inside.



+1


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> I think comparing hockey from a New England state (let alone one spitting distance from Canada) to a diving facilty seems like a bit of a stretch. Outside of the severe northern Midwest, the Northeast is hockeytown USA.



+ 1.  There was a major need for a rink.  The nearest ones are in Stanstead and Lyndon and those two are packed all the time with games and kids programs.  Jay was a ahead of the curve on that one.  They now do hockey camps there and lots of other programs.  Makes sense since their clientele is Canadian and they have lodging right there.  Perfect.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> As for the diving maybe Lyndon State is going to start a dive team



I don't think that LSC has the interest, let alone the money, to do that.


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## AdironRider (Jan 16, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that LSC has the interest, let alone the money, to do that.



Swim programs are constant money losers for schools. Outside of the big meets, noone comes to watch, if any come at all. It would be a tough sell. 

Also, most schools in Lyndon's size and caliber scope swim in 25 yard pools. (Most d3 colleges do, as well as plenty of D1 & D2 schools as well. A 50 meter pool would be overkill.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2013)

And just to muddy the water some more on the aquatics facility, LSC already has a 25 yard 8 lane pool that I believe is rather under utilized.

http://www.northernarchitects.com/Images & Graphics/ShapePool.jpg


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## fbrissette (Jan 16, 2013)

Not so sure about diving but I think a 50 m pool fits well into the development.  The development at Jay Peak was done with trying to get people to come year round.  And that means giving a little bit of everything to the family.  The pool is a nice complement to the mountain biking facility.   They could attract teams for swim training camp.   I could easily see tons of triathlon training camp setting up at Burke.  These guys ain't stupid.

I too was skeptical of the ice arena at Jay, but they get a helluva a lot of hockey tournaments year round.  Instead of hitting the road with one parent driving with 3-4 teammates, all of the families come cause there is a lot of stuff to do, unlike the typical tournament in a boring suburb.  Families used to come to Jay in limited number to ski.  Now they come in large numbers because they can ski, waterpark, skate, arcade etc...  They even come when there is no snow because the place is fun.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2013)

A good pool for swimming laps would also likely benefit BMA to help add a new element to their training regimen. However, the diving part still has me scratching my head.


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## AdironRider (Jan 16, 2013)

Considering they already have an 8 lane 25 yard pool, which barely anyone uses for laps to begin with, I seriously doubt upping the ante to a 50m pool is going to attract anyone. 

50m is a big pool. I seriously doubt 50% of the overall population could barely swim one length, let alone a full lap. 

Most triathalons are open water swims anyways, training is different and so is stroke technique. While maybe good for base training, noone is going to travel to train in a pool that is nothing like the competition they would be taking part in.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 16, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Diving, seriously?
> 
> *I thought they had lost it with 4 hotels with sub 100k skier visits, now its just confirmed theyve jumped the shark and all the "found money" they have in EB-5 *and jading their business sense. Diving, sweet jesus.



I noted Looooooooong ago that the articial manipulation of an economy is a dangerous thing, almost always fraught with unforeseen negative consequences.   Most people take an extremely facile view on matters like this and think, _"oh, all that money in an undeveloped area, and since it's all foreign money with not much taxpayer expense, how could that not be a good thing?"_   Well; stick around.



riverc0il said:


> *Who would have thunk an Ice Rink in the middle of no where in the NEK would have been so successful?*



Is it "so successful" though?   Maybe it is, I dont know.  I go to Jay several times a winter and get up there in the summer occasionally, and it doesnt seem _that_ busy to me.  The reason they built that wasnt for the NEK market, it was because they're going after the Montreal market, which is Canadian.  From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense.  But take a look at the schedule, there are big blocks of 3 hour chunks that say _"stick and puck"_ and_ "public skate"_, which are the times of day an ice rink can usually replace those terms with "we're not making money".  Admittedly, this may be slightly different at Jay and public skate might actually bring in a lot of folks since they're a captive audience, but that thing certainly isnt getting the use in the spring, summer, and fall as it does in the winter.  Bottom line, even ice rinks in fairly developed markets have a tough go of things, so I'm unconvinced the Ice Haus is a cash cow, and my guess is Jay doesnt care.  I see it more as an ancillary draw, so they're probably happy if if breaks even or turns a small profit.




riverc0il said:


> So long Burke, it was nice knowing you while you were an old school classic ski area.* Unlike Jay, which was already a resort*



To me, before this expansion, Jay Peak wasn't a "resort" at all. I think the character is completely altered.  

You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England.  I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> And just to muddy the water some more on the aquatics facility, LSC already has a 25 yard 8 lane pool that I believe is rather under utilized.
> 
> http://www.northernarchitects.com/Images & Graphics/ShapePool.jpg



It is a beautiful, underused pool.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> I noted Looooooooong ago that the articial manipulation of an economy is a dangerous thing, almost always fraught with unforeseen negative consequences. Most people take an extremely facile view on matters like this and think, _"oh, all that money in an undeveloped area, and since it's all foreign money with not much taxpayer expense, how could that not be a good thing?"_ Well; stick around.
> 
> You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England. I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".



I think that it needs to be clear that, again, EB-5 money is not government funding, except for the small amount of government expense in processing the Visas/green cards and reviewing the project, and EB-5 money is by no means "free."  It is foreign investment capital made by folks who expect, and are promised, a return on their money.  

It is no different than any other capital or private investment, other than the fact that it has been targeted to a specific locale based on demographics (poor areas) and is pitched to a specific group of investors (foreign nationals who desire to have US Citizenship).  

You're right though in that having large pools of capital at ones disposal might cause one to lose perspective.  But saying it is "free money" is not accurate.


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## AdironRider (Jan 16, 2013)

I think we all realize that. 

But its also not just a straight investment in the normal sense either. While Im sure the investors would love to see a decent return, and I surmise that up to this point they have, I dont think that is the ultimate motivation towards "investing" through the EB-5 program. Most likely, thats money they would be willing to spend anyway to get to the front of the visa line anyways. 

Having easy money lined up with less risk can most certainly jade business decisions, especially if you've been on a roll for the past couple years and your selling a guaranteed win with a visa. I think thats Benedicts and my point, that while they certainly have been sucessful to date, I think they are getting somewhat cocky in the "build it and they will come" premise.


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## fbrissette (Jan 16, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Considering they already have an 8 lane 25 yard pool, which barely anyone uses for laps to begin with, I seriously doubt upping the ante to a 50m pool is going to attract anyone.
> 
> Most triathalons are open water swims anyways, training is different and so is stroke technique. While maybe good for base training, noone is going to travel to train in a pool that is nothing like the competition they would be taking part in.



Did not even know they already had a pool.

Most triathlon camps focus on cycling and running especially in the north-east.  A typical week long triathlon camp will feature something like 18 hours of cycling, 6 hours of running and a couple of hours of swimming.  So Burke would be a great place.  But then, so is Lake Placid and it has a lot more to offer.


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## fbrissette (Jan 16, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it "so successful" though?   Maybe it is, I dont know.  I go to Jay several times a winter and get up there in the summer occasionally, and it doesnt seem _that_ busy to me.  The reason they built that wasnt for the NEK market, it was because they're going after the Montreal market, which is Canadian.  From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense.  But take a look at the schedule, there are big blocks of 3 hour chunks that say _"stick and puck"_ and_ "public skate"_, which are the times of day an ice rink can usually replace those terms with "we're not making money".



I beg to differ.  I hear a lot of complaints from homeowners that there is little 'stick and puck' available time.  They get 30+ hockey tournaments this year, plus some figure skating camps.  A typical tournament will easily bring 300 persons to the hill, most of which will stay and eat the resort.


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## AdironRider (Jan 16, 2013)

To be fair as well, those stick and puck times are pretty awesome for locals. 

Depending on the setup, it might be contracted with the town or a local organization to have those. I know the local rink here in Jackson does that, as well as the outdoor rink beside my house in Wilson.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Did not even know they already had a pool.
> 
> Most triathlon camps focus on cycling and running especially in the north-east.  A typical week long triathlon camp will feature something like 18 hours of cycling, 6 hours of running and a couple of hours of swimming.  So Burke would be a great place.  But then, so is Lake Placid and it has a lot more to offer.



Burke does not have a pool. Lyndon State College does but it is 10 minutes away. Burke would be a great place for Triathalon camps, The rural roads lend nicely to road biking (as long as the pavement is in decent shape). I've heard triatheletes admit that the swimming portion is their weakest leg due to lack of coaching and a decent place to train.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 16, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> I think we all realize that.


  Correct



AdironRider said:


> But *its also not just a straight investment in the normal sense either.* While Im sure the investors would love to see a decent return, and I surmise that up to this point they have, I dont think that is the ultimate motivation towards "investing" through the EB-5 program. Most likely, thats money they would be willing to spend anyway to get to the front of the visa line anyways.



Also correct.  Many make no bones about the fact that they may NEVER see a return on their money.  They are paying for access.  EB-5 is by no means a safe investment, and the incoming party is generally well aware of the risks (or at least one would hope).  This is part of the shady underbelly of the deal.  Sure, people _want_ to see an ROI, and maybe they in fact will.......... or maybe they wont.  Point is, this is not a liquid investment by any means or stretch of the imagination.



fbrissette said:


> I beg to differ.*  I hear a lot of complaints from homeowners that there is little 'stick and puck' available time.*  They get 30+ hockey tournaments this year, plus some figure skating camps.  A typical tournament will easily bring 300 persons to the hill, most of which will stay and eat the resort.



If you look at the daily schedule, there are usually 3 hours blocks of both "stick and puck" as well Public Skating.  As a former hockey player that had to kick and claw to find ice time, even going as far as to rent out rinks for one hour with friends from 2am to 3am due to the highly competitive and always booked nature of rinks, that stuck out to me.

  Maybe we just have different views of what success is for a rink, I'm not saying they're not doing okay, maybe they're in fact doing very well financially, but I'm used to ice being pretty difficult to get, or at least not seeing 7 hours per day being S+P and Public Skate.  Maybe they do this on purpose for non-skiers? 

EDIT:  BTW, $180/hour to rent out an entire ice rink is pretty cheap.  I've paid more than that 20 years ago!

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/ice-arena/ice-haus-arena-schedule


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Maybe they do this on purpose for non-skiers?
> 
> EDIT:  BTW, $180/hour to rent out an entire ice rink is pretty cheap.  I've paid more than that 20 years ago!



I think that is the idea. They wouldn't be able to promote the arena as a alternative to skiing if it was constantly booked up with skating clubs and hockey teams. The mid-day/mid-week stick-n-puck/public skating makes great blocks of time for someone just to pop over from the hotel to skate.


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## fbrissette (Jan 16, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct
> 
> 
> If you look at the daily schedule, there are usually 3 hours blocks of both "stick and puck" as well Public Skating.  As a former hockey player that had to kick and claw to find ice time, even going as far as to rent out rinks for one hour with friends from 2am to 3am due to the highly competitive and always booked nature of rinks, that stuck out to me.
> ...



If you look at week-ends, there is no free skating or stick and puck time available 4 out of 5 week-ends.  Mid-week is different I'll grant you that.


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## riverc0il (Jan 16, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it "so successful" though?


Absolutely. They are killing it with that ice rink. One of the hotels on 242 was converted from a skier hotel into lodging for hockey players. It isn't just about the public skate and stick and puck. They are pulling in tournaments and teams from all over the place and it is only going to go further for them once they get that new athletics facility built Stateside. I've heard enough from the inside that I'm convinced that rink is making Jay big money.



BenedictGomez said:


> To me, before this expansion, Jay Peak wasn't a "resort" at all. I think the character is completely altered.
> 
> You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England.  I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".


How many ski areas that are not resorts have their own inn, hundreds of condos, and a full championship golf course? The visual face is certainly different, the base area no longer has "classic" looks and vibe (and the last vestige of classic, the Stateside Lodge, is going to be next on the hit list). But it was a resort long before Tram Lodge or the Waterpark or the Hockey Rink or the new Inn or the new learning center or the spa... well, it certainly is much more of a resort now than it was before....

...but by your estimation, Smuggs is not a resort either. Smuggs Madonna lodge is about as classic as it gets but that place is a resort.


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## BeefyBoy50 (Jan 16, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Diving, seriously?
> 
> As a competitive swimmer and coach for over two decades, anyone whos anyone knows divers are flakes and primarily consist of the weird kids who need to fulfill an athletic credit or something. There are very few competitive, SERIOUS, divers out there. Not to knock those that are, its a very intricate sport, but the overall majority just dont give a rip.
> 
> ...



Yes divers are weird but don't just make fun of them. I'm sure as a coach you've seen your fair share of weird divers and there are a lot of them out there but some of them are really good and most divers are nice kids. Further, a lot of divers are really devoted to the sport- it's just as difficult a sport as any other. As a diver myself I don't think I fit this mold of just doing the sport to get a credit- I already do track and xc and I just do diving for fun and because maybe eventually some day I'll translate the skills to skiing... everybody can dream haha.
Anyway this seems like a good idea to me. As a resident of the greater philadelphia area I really wish there was a 10 meter platform nearby- they are so fun to jump off. The nearest one to me is Princeton (not open to the public) or Penn State (3 hrs). I bet the concentration of actual diving centers is even more rare in upstate VT- and I mean real boards not your cheesy backyard plank. I predict this center might actually bring more people than you might expect, maybe people who want to train but more likely those who want to walk to the end of the 10m and then walk back down the steps with their tails between their legs


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## AdironRider (Jan 17, 2013)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> Yes divers are weird but don't just make fun of them. I'm sure as a coach you've seen your fair share of weird divers and there are a lot of them out there but some of them are really good and most divers are nice kids. Further, a lot of divers are really devoted to the sport- it's just as difficult a sport as any other. As a diver myself I don't think I fit this mold of just doing the sport to get a credit- I already do track and xc and I just do diving for fun and because maybe eventually some day I'll translate the skills to skiing... everybody can dream haha.
> Anyway this seems like a good idea to me. As a resident of the greater philadelphia area I really wish there was a 10 meter platform nearby- they are so fun to jump off. The nearest one to me is Princeton (not open to the public) or Penn State (3 hrs). I bet the concentration of actual diving centers is even more rare in upstate VT- and I mean real boards not your cheesy backyard plank. I predict this center might actually bring more people than you might expect, maybe people who want to train but more likely those who want to walk to the end of the 10m and then walk back down the steps with their tails between their legs



So you are telling me you are going to travel from Philly, to use a ten meter board near the Canadian border? 

Nevermind that diving (at least in the Northeast) is primarily a winter sport due to the way high school and college schedule them. There is not a ton of overlap between divers and skiers. Same for swimmers, I didnt really take up snowboarding to the extent that I do now until I stopped training and started coaching. 

Doesnt LaSalle have a diving facility? Im thinking back to my high school days on that one though when I was traveling round the country for meets. 

Do you know what it costs to build a facility like this? Its in the millions for a decent setup. Do you know what a swim meet pulls in in revenue? Do you know the labor and liability insurance costs associated with a pool like this? How much would you pay for the priviledge of using their setup? Not many people are going to choose to pay to jump off a ten meter, when they can do it for free at any of the million cliff jumping spots in VT. Its like mecca for that. Red Rocks at tiered levels up to 76 feet is free, closer to civilization so to speak, and yeah free. Same with Buckets down near Bolton/Richmond, etc. Plus they have a water park with all sorts of fun things for the non-divers. Your telling me a non-diver is going to get his thrills on a ten meter and not a water slide? Highly doubt it.


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## Steve@jpr (Jan 17, 2013)

As usual, you guys have these topics pretty well wrestled.  I'll just add that, and Steve is right, we don't look to the ice sheet to be successful in and of itself.  I set the pricing as a lost leader (and thus the tournaments are a hell of a lot more affordable than many places) to help fill rooms.  Rink's been open 3 full years and, this coming year, we'll have 40 weekends of 12-16 teams booking a total of between 250-300 total rooms--much of this during shoulder seasons.  The per-caps on these folks, alone, tell a good story.  Add in two weeks worth of Planet Hockey camps, Pro Ambitions Camps and figure skating marginalia and while possibly not a home run, a stand-up triple certainly can be argued.  Certainly more successful than even the most optimistic among us forecasted.  And Francois is right (and I have the hatemail that bears it out)--weekends we have no avail stick and puck/free skate times--it was he main reason ice-access is no longer included in packages; weekends have no space.  I'll give you a shout when I get my head around diving.  Still waiting for the divine on that front.

Forecast is improving too.



AdironRider said:


> So you are telling me you are going to travel from Philly, to use a ten meter board near the Canadian border?
> 
> Nevermind that diving (at least in the Northeast) is primarily a winter sport due to the way high school and college schedule them. There is not a ton of overlap between divers and skiers. Same for swimmers, I didnt really take up snowboarding to the extent that I do now until I stopped training and started coaching.
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks Steve.  Are you folks doing the marketing work for Burke?  Collaboratively?  Or just letting them do their own thing?  I'm seeing some cross-marketing, but still not a lot.


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## Steve@jpr (Jan 17, 2013)

They're pretty much running things on their own TB--I try to help where I can but not as much as even I might have expected.




thetrailboss said:


> Thanks Steve.  Are you folks doing the marketing work for Burke?  Collaboratively?  Or just letting them do their own thing?  I'm seeing some cross-marketing, but still not a lot.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 17, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> As usual, you guys have these topics pretty well wrestled.  I'll just add that, and Steve is right, we don't look to the ice sheet to be successful in and of itself.  I set the pricing as a lost leader (and thus the tournaments are a hell of a lot more affordable than many places) to help fill rooms.  Rink's been open 3 full years and, this coming year, we'll have 40 weekends of 12-16 teams booking a total of between 250-300 total rooms--much of this during shoulder seasons.  The per-caps on these folks, alone, tell a good story.  Add in two weeks worth of Planet Hockey camps, Pro Ambitions Camps and figure skating marginalia and while possibly not a home run, a stand-up triple certainly can be argued.  Certainly more successful than even the most optimistic among us forecasted.  And Francois is right (and I have the hatemail that bears it out)--weekends we have no avail stick and puck/free skate times--it was he main reason ice-access is no longer included in packages; weekends have no space.  I'll give you a shout when I get my head around diving.  Still waiting for the divine on that front.
> 
> Forecast is improving too.



Thanks Steve.  Now can you shed some light on the mystery of the new Jay Peak run ?   (see _Crashed groomer/new jay peak run_ thread)


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## AdironRider (Jan 17, 2013)

I must admit, Steve at JPR is a standup dude for wading into the waters here and bringing clear concise and accurate info. Definitely a solid asset for the boards.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Thanks Steve.  *Now can you shed some light on the mystery of the new Jay Peak run ?*   (see _Crashed groomer/new jay peak run_ thread)



I'm going with my "Brigadoon Hypothesis", it's a magical trail.


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## BeefyBoy50 (Jan 17, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> So you are telling me you are going to travel from Philly, to use a ten meter board near the Canadian border?
> 
> Nevermind that diving (at least in the Northeast) is primarily a winter sport due to the way high school and college schedule them. There is not a ton of overlap between divers and skiers. Same for swimmers, I didnt really take up snowboarding to the extent that I do now until I stopped training and started coaching.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying I'll travel from Philly, I'm saying people from the area might travel 30 minutes, maybe even an hour, to use a top notch diving facility. I had no idea the price could be as expensive as you mentioned, however. That puts things in a whole different light. Besides, I don't know what the area around is like in terms of diving facilities but if the area is anything like philly than I doubt there is a diving area with platforms for hours around. I could be wrong though, maybe some college has a great diving center.
La Salle has 2 1meter and 2 3 meter platforms which is good but its nothing like the facilities I saw at Penn State- 2 indoor 1m boards, 2 outdoor 1m boards, 2 indoor 3m boards, 2 outdoor 3m boards, and an outdoor diving tower.
I see this diving facility thing as an interesting concept but if it really is as expensive as you say to build than it would be more of a money pit.


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## Steve@jpr (Jan 17, 2013)

I like the Brigadoon summary.  Looked back as far as I could and that cut in the map has always been there--far back as I can see at least.  Cosmic.



fbrissette said:


> Thanks Steve.  Now can you shed some light on the mystery of the new Jay Peak run ?   (see _Crashed groomer/new jay peak run_ thread)


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 17, 2013)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> I'm not saying I'll travel from Philly, I'm saying people from the area might travel 30 minutes, maybe even an hour, to use a top notch diving facility. I had no idea the price could be as expensive as you mentioned, however. That puts things in a whole different light. Besides, I don't know what the area around is like in terms of diving facilities but if the area is anything like philly than I doubt there is a diving area with platforms for hours around. I could be wrong though, maybe some college has a great diving center.



I'm not aware of any type of diving scene (other than cliff/swimming hole jumpers) in the greater VT, NH, ME region.

There are really no pure diving facilities in VT or NH that I can find. UVM, UNH, and Dartmouth all have a 3 meter board. Hell, the Kiwanis pool in St Johnsbury has a 3 meter board.
I'm still not sure what demand there would be for a "diving facility. Or what mix of boards/platforms you would need to be considered a "diving facility". Maybe they are just planning on throwing up 1 and 3 meter boards at the end of the pool along with a 10 meter platform from a catwalk in the rafters? How deep does the water have to be for one of those? I would suppose it would be too deep to be very good for lane swimming?


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## AdironRider (Jan 17, 2013)

A deep pool does not necessarily equate poor lap swimming. 

A decent pool for swimming is one that manages all waves and such. Lane lines do this to some extent, but next time your in a big time swimming arena, check out the gutters along the edge. Often they will be huge compared to the local Y or a backyard pool (often the backyard pools dont even have a drainage system outside of an overflow hole). Good drainage almost always equals a fast pool. 

Having a deep pool can work in the same sense, the shock waves as the swimmer passes through the water travel a ways downwards, bounce off the bottom, then head back up towards the swimmer. A deeper pool increases the time this whole process takes, usually to the point where the swimmer has already passed back over the point on his way back. 

On a side note, recent rule changes within the past ten years or so now allow swimmers to dolphin kick after their turns in pretty much every stroke. Remember in the Olympics when swimmers would dolphin kick like 20 yards before surfacing? Same premise. The dolphin kick (besides being the second fastest stroke per se in the sport), allows the swimmer to stay below the waves and chop so to speak on top for longer, resulting in lower times. 

That being said, I think the pure lack of diving facilities, even at all the local big name colleges (Dartmouth with only up to 3 meters (although I love their pool even though its actually kinda slow) shows just how little interest there is in the sport of diving in the Northeast. Frankly, nationwide the amount of serious divers is so small they could all exclusively train at the proposed Burke facility and I would wager they would still lose money.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2013)

I'm familiar with the way a lap pool and the wide gutters in combination with the lane dividers work to reduce waves in the pool. I was just thinking that the depth of water 15-20 ft under a 10 meter platform would make it more difficult to look down and follow the lane line on the bottom of the pool.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2013)

Pool smool.  

I want to know what is going to happen with the ski terrain.


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## Smellytele (Jan 18, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Pool smool.
> 
> I want to know what is going to happen with the ski terrain.



Bingo bango bongo!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2013)

Indeed. What does exactly does "Significantly expand the area of the East Bowl" mean?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2013)

Are we going to get something like this (from the original Ginn Masterplan)?:









Or this (brought to you by F.T.N Trail Planners LLP)?:
White areas are exisitng cut trails.
Green are exisitng on map glades.
Purple would be future cut trails
Yellow would be future gladed chutes throughout the East Bowl.


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## gregnye (Jan 18, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Are we going to get something like this (from the original Ginn Masterplan)?:
> 
> Or this (brought to you by F.T.N Trail Planners LLP)?:
> White areas are exisitng cut trails.
> ...



This lift looks as long as the Mid-burke express. Would the old willougby quad really serve it? It looks like it could be high-speed (its long enough. (Never been to burke though--sorry. Although I may go on sunday if its too windy at Jay)


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2013)

It isn't quite as long as the Mid-Burke Express which is about 5,600' long.
As I have the East Bowl lift drawn here it is about 4,866'
The Willughby Quad is 4,731'

I took a little time and reworked my East Bowl trail/glade design. Most notably, I moved the summit of the lift to the east side of the powerline. This both avoids trying to cross the powerline (an expensive thing to do) and moves the lift a little farther away from the summit wind turbine. I'm not sure how far up toward the communications tower on the summit they can go with the lift. In both of my versions, I have the summit terminal within 100 feet of the tower. Having the terminal this high would allow people to easily access Upper Willloughby from the lift as well as have a downhill traverse to East Bowl.
Additionally, I reworked the trail that comes off Powderhorn down across the Lift line and Caveman. In my revision, I eliminated the lower section and sort of combined it with the lift line.


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## AdironRider (Jan 18, 2013)

I sense 9 trails leading to one chokepoint on a traverse never happening, otherwise that looks pretty sweet.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2013)

Keep in mind that those are all glades and the final layout in there would likely be much different. The bowl naturally funnels into that spot. I suppose I should add some sort of connector between the outlet of the bowl and the East Bowl extension trail that returns to the lift.


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## Masskier (Jan 26, 2013)

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*nice article in today Cal rec.

Burke Mountain Resort: Stenger Wants To Open Biking Center Next Year

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=89610


*[/FONT]


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> It isn't quite as long as the Mid-Burke Express which is about 5,600' long.
> As I have the East Bowl lift drawn here it is about 4,866'
> The Willughby Quad is 4,731'
> 
> ...



Love the idea of having all that gladed terrain in there, but I'd have to expect they'd want to add at least a couple of trails in there to make the pod more viable when natural conditions aren't that great.

Is the idea being kicked around to move the Willoughby Quad over to the bowl?  Will people still bitch about how long and slow the lift is when it's moved over there?  :lol:


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## Masskier (Jan 26, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Love the idea of having all that gladed terrain in there, but I'd have to expect they'd want to add at least a couple of trails in there to make the pod more viable when natural conditions aren't that great.
> 
> Is the idea being kicked around to move the Willoughby Quad over to the bowl?  Will people still bitch about how long and slow the lift is when it's moved over there?  :lol:



The East Bowl should have a new lift in time for next winter.  Most likely it will be a HSQ.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2013)

That's seriously going for it.  2 HSQs at a mountain that does less than 100K skier visits in unheard of. That really speaks to the faith Stenger has in growing the business at Burke.  For current frequent Burke skiers, the next few years are going to be pretty fantastic; major on mountain improvements to enjoy prior to real estate development and increased crowding.  I really need to find a way to get to Burke for a day this season.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's seriously going for it.  2 HSQs at a mountain that does less than 100K skier visits in unheard of. That really speaks to the faith Stenger has in growing the business at Burke.  For current frequent Burke skiers, the next few years are going to be pretty fantastic; major on mountain improvements to enjoy prior to real estate development and increased crowding.  I really need to find a way to get to Burke for a day this season.



It would be 3 HSQs if another is added.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2013)

That's right.  Forgot about the Sherburne.  In my few visits there, I think I've only skied down to it once; hence my omission.  It services pretty great learning terrain though; something often not discussed here on AZ.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's right.  Forgot about the Sherburne.  In my few visits there, I think I've only skied down to it once; hence my omission.  It services pretty great learning terrain though; something often not discussed here on AZ.



But here is a good point.  Currently, Burke has more high speed lifts than:

* Bolton
* Jay (not counting the tram)
* Cannon (not counting the tram)
* Smuggs
* Sunapee
* Wildcat
* Gunstock

Just to name a few.  And it has the same number of HSQ's as Sugarbush North, alone, or Sugarbush South alone.  That is something that I don't think a lot of folks realize yet.


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## fbrissette (Jan 27, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> But here is a good point.  Currently, Burke has more high speed lifts than:
> 
> * Bolton
> * Jay (not counting the tram)
> ...



Not sure what what the fascination with HSQ is all about, especially at a resort with no lift-line.   Higher lift capacity means more people on the runs at the same time, and more rapidly decaying ski conditions.


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## Masskier (Jan 27, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> But here is a good point.  Currently, Burke has more high speed lifts than:
> 
> * Bolton
> * Jay (not counting the tram)
> ...



Good point.  And soon Burke will have new lodges/hotels with restaurants and skier services, a 2 acre indoor Mtn Biking park, a state of the art Tennis Center, 8 indoor and 12 outdoor courts with 4 different surfaces, also a stadium, and a aquatic center and another major investment in snow making.  Its been a long time coming


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 27, 2013)

Masskier said:


> The East Bowl should have a new lift in time for next winter. Most likely it will be a HSQ.



If the plan is indeed for a HSQ in the East Bowl, I fear the bowl is going to get chopped up into trails.

At this point, the general lack of snowfall to have consistantly open glades during the last and current winters, as DHS points out, it almost makes sense to have trails they can make snow on so they can at least open something over there. especially after making an investment to put a lift there.


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## riverc0il (Jan 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's seriously going for it.  2 HSQs at a mountain that does less than 100K skier visits in unheard of.


If two is unheard of then three HSQs is unfathomable. It still boggles my mind that Burke has two, let alone three. Masskier of course has an inside line at Burke, but I'll still only believe this when I see an official world. Would Willoughby remain as a backup lift only? It just doesn't make sense to pull in another HSQ when they have a fixed grip long enough to make it happen. And what of the trails? If they already have plans for a HSQ, then surely they already have the trail/glade questions somewhat firmed up. This is just bonkers. Though Stenger gets involved and things go crazy... so I guess that makes sense.

However, whats up with JPR? Are we getting a high speed Bonnie replacement over there for next season as planned? Or will Burke outpace Jay for on slope improvements...


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## riverc0il (Jan 27, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Not sure what what the fascination with HSQ is all about, especially at a resort with no lift-line.   Higher lift capacity means more people on the runs at the same time, and more rapidly decaying ski conditions.


I think the point is that Burke doesn't need the HSQ for East Bowl. I haven't read any posts behind the idea yet. Trailboss is saying Burke already out numbers many other big name resorts for HSQs, so what is the point in adding another? It isn't going to bring in the numbers more than the new summit lift. Point of diminishing returns for sure. Summit HSQ was justifiable I think, it really puts Burke in another league as far as "the average" skiing family is concerned. But three? I don't think any one notices once you have more than 1/3 of your major mountain lifts high speed.

TB you can add Sugarloaf to your list of big name resorts that Burke already equals in number of HSQs. Three would tie Stowe excluding the Gondi.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> If the plan is indeed for a HSQ in the East Bowl, I fear the bowl is going to get chopped up into trails.
> 
> At this point, the general lack of snowfall to have consistantly open glades during the last and current winters, as DHS points out, it almost makes sense to have trails they can make snow on so they can at least open something over there. especially after making an investment to put a lift there.



I would not let one and a half rough seasons dictate things.  It is still early this season and they will get the snow.  



fbrissette said:


> Not sure what what the fascination with HSQ is all about, especially at a resort with no lift-line.   Higher lift capacity means more people on the runs at the same time, and more rapidly decaying ski conditions.



Yeah, I've made this point for years and it is from talking with the average SNE skier.  Ask him/her what they want and they say fast lifts.  They don't appreciate Castlerock or MRG's single or that kind of terrain.  They want Wachusett, man.  Fast lifts, wide groomers.  Now most of us aren't in that market.  But when Burke has HSQ's, average Joe skier who lives in Boston or NYC and has disposable income that ski areas want, takes notice.  



riverc0il said:


> If two is unheard of then three HSQs is unfathomable. It still boggles my mind that Burke has two, let alone three. Masskier of course has an inside line at Burke, but I'll still only believe this when I see an official world. Would Willoughby remain as a backup lift only? It just doesn't make sense to pull in another HSQ when they have a fixed grip long enough to make it happen. And what of the trails? If they already have plans for a HSQ, then surely they already have the trail/glade questions somewhat firmed up. This is just bonkers. Though Stenger gets involved and things go crazy... so I guess that makes sense.



I still think that Willoughby is better left where it is and untouched.  We're talking pylons that are almost fifty years old, other equipment that is now 24 years old, and older carriers that folks despise because they don't have footrests, which is kind of a lame gripe.  And the current drive is very slow.  As folks who work with lifts have told me the lift is 1989 technology that, if removed and relocated, will require upgrades to comply with new regulations.  So that means you salvage the chairs, some tower components, the base terminal, summit bullwheel, line equipment, and have to get a new drive and safety/electronics.  It's really not worth it when they can buy new...as in brand new with 2013 technology and a nice warranty.  



> However, whats up with JPR? Are we getting a high speed Bonnie replacement over there for next season as planned? Or will Burke outpace Jay for on slope improvements...



As they've been talking in the Jay thread, the Power Line Six Pack is coming this summer.  



riverc0il said:


> I think the point is that Burke doesn't need the HSQ for East Bowl. I haven't read any posts behind the idea yet. Trailboss is saying Burke already out numbers many other big name resorts for HSQs, so what is the point in adding another? It isn't going to bring in the numbers more than the new summit lift. Point of diminishing returns for sure. Summit HSQ was justifiable I think, it really puts Burke in another league as far as "the average" skiing family is concerned. But three? I don't think any one notices once you have more than 1/3 of your major mountain lifts high speed.
> 
> TB you can add Sugarloaf to your list of big name resorts that Burke already equals in number of HSQs. Three would tie Stowe excluding the Gondi.



Yeah, add Sugarloaf.  I was just saying that Burke's image should be moving up to where it should be...if only looking at terrain and vert, but with the lifts folks are now thinking twice about it.  As to overkill?  Yeah, I think that is true as well.  Right now a good fixed grip quad with a conveyor load, at most, would be more than sufficient.  And if you need to you can upgrade it to an HSQ later when the business justifies it.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2013)

The only rationale I could see in not re-locating Willoughby is avoiding a situation where if the Summit HSQ goes down, people would need to use the Poma to get over to the East Burke lift and reach the Summit.  That said, given how infrequent new HSQs go offline, it seems like a waste of resources to have the Willoughby sit there idle except for those very rare occasions it might be needed.


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## Masskier (Jan 27, 2013)

East Bowl will remain mostly glades.   As discussed above,  The cost of moving and upgrading, the advantage of a back up lift when or if the new quad goes down, plus the advantage of operating a 2nd summit lift on peak days are all reasons why it make sense to go with a new lift.


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## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> The only rationale I could see in not re-locating Willoughby is avoiding a situation where if the Summit HSQ goes down, people would need to use the Poma to get over to the East Burke lift and reach the Summit.  That said, given how infrequent new HSQs go offline, it seems like a waste of resources to have the Willoughby sit there idle except for those very rare occasions it might be needed.



Of course I was there when the HSQ went down and I was glad they had the Willoughby as a back up.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 28, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I would not let one and a half rough seasons dictate things.  It is still early this season and they will get the snow.



I was just thinking out loud about how cutting trails over glading could be justified. I'm not saying I agree with it 



thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, I've made this point for years and it is from talking with the average SNE skier.  Ask him/her what they want and they say fast lifts.  They don't appreciate Castlerock or MRG's single or that kind of terrain.  They want Wachusett, man.  Fast lifts, wide groomers.  Now most of us aren't in that market.  But when Burke has HSQ's, average Joe skier who lives in Boston or NYC and has disposable income that ski areas want, takes notice.



HIGH SPEED everything! Unfortunately this is true. However, with the MidBurke HSQ already going to the summit, I agree with RiverC0il that another HSQ to the summit would start to tip in the direction of diminishing return on the investment. Having three quads to the summit of Burke would be completely rediculous :razz::blink:




thetrailboss said:


> I still think that Willoughby is better left where it is and untouched.  We're talking pylons that are almost fifty years old, other equipment that is now 24 years old, and older carriers that folks despise because they don't have footrests, which is kind of a lame gripe.  And the current drive is very slow.  As folks who work with lifts have told me the lift is 1989 technology that, if removed and relocated, will require upgrades to comply with new regulations.  So that means you salvage the chairs, some tower components, the base terminal, summit bullwheel, line equipment, and have to get a new drive and safety/electronics.  It's really not worth it when they can buy new...as in brand new with 2013 technology and a nice warranty.



That makes total sense, but I would think a brand new HSQ is still far more expensive than moving and upgrading the Willoughby.
Even if the Willoughby is left in place as a back-up, i'm not sure that it would be good for anything 5-6 years from now as it would essentially sit there and rust. If a lift is anything like a car, using it on a fairly regular basis helps keep it in good running order than just firing it up once or twice a year. Lubricants and connections don't perform real well if they sit around a lot.
If they decide to leave the Willoughby where it is, I would be happier with a new double or triple chair in the East Bowl over a quad. I can't see that pod ever needing the capacity of a quad (IMHO, even the Willoughby would actually be overkill).
If the lift line plans are anything like what I have laid out in previous pages, the result would be a 1410 vert/4,850' long line. For comparison sake, the Castlerock double is 1689' vert/4700' long (granted the chairs are spaced eight miles apart on that thing ). Currently, the traverse out of East Bowl to the Mid-Burke Express takes me about 5-7 minutes (and I do it faster than most) and it takes a lot of energy. Having a Double or triple chair that takes 12 minutes to get to the top of East Bowl would still be a few minutes faster than going all the way back to Mid-Burke and it would save you an exhausting skate-n-pole. Additionally, a double or triple would not require as wide a liftline be cut that a HSQ would need.

If it comes down to it, and the plan is indeed a HSQ in the East Bowl, they should sell the Willougby for what they can get for it and install a triple chair on the old lift line between Big and Little Dippers (Boarderline). How high up to run this lift is debatable. However, it would be a good lift for lower intermediate terrain and it would provide a good lift to access the East Bowl quad if the Mid-Burke quad goes down.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 28, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Of course I was there when the HSQ went down and I was glad they had the Willoughby as a back up.



You were there that Saturday too? I may have seen you but the fog was so thick, I could barely see my feet


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## Smellytele (Jan 28, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> You were there that Saturday too? I may have seen you but the fog was so thick, I could barely see my feet



I try to get to Burke once or twice a year for the last 4 years but have yet to have a day that isn't in the clouds. Twice it was snowing as well but never sunshine.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 28, 2013)

Masskier said:


> The East Bowl should have a new lift in time for next winter.  Most likely it will be a HSQ.



So if this is true, this should fit quite nicely into Burke's history of deciding to install a HSQ on very short notice and getting it running by December :lol:.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 31, 2013)

Saw this on the free side of the Cal Rec paywall (at least for now):

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=89610


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 31, 2013)

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=89610


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 19, 2013)

I talked to a very reliable source this weekend. The HSQ is not a done deal in the East Bowl. Moving the Willoughby Quad over there is still on the table. It is getting pretty late in the year to decide on this but I'm assuming that the financial options are a big part of this. I'm not sure if trail and lift improvements are funded by EB5 since it is hard to "attach" significant job creation to that sort of development. I think most of the trail and lift work at Jay has been paid for by the resort. Although I could be mistaken.

Additionally, the major expansion of East Bowl may be very limited in open cut trail development. Instead it sounds like three main glade paths are planned. This would likely leave plenty of room for "non-major thinning" :-D. We'll have to see how this plays out. It sounds like a final meeting with Burke's DRB on Phase 1 is happening this week. Assuming the DRB approves, then it is on to Act250.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2013)

Things are moving ahead.....

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ig-infrastructure-improvements?nclick_check=1


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 25, 2013)

Burke has added a new section to their website focused on the new development plans.

Blog Post: http://www.skiburke.com/burke-blog/a-new-heading/

Construction Plans page: http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction

The Master Plan page doesn't have much on it yet. However there is a link to some guy's video that is a "Pretty Close" guess at future plans ::smile: :razz: ).

You can see renderings of the planned hotel/lodge that is to be built below the Mid-Burke Express.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2013)

The Act 250 plans for the Mid-Burke Hotel/Lodge were released late Friday afternoon. 
I *was* pretty close 






Lots of interesting details about and around the new hotel. However, the plans did not have a "Master Plan" page showing the rest of the mountain like the Jay applications have had.











From the Bear Den:





The Plan for the main floor. There will be a restaurant on the left side facing the mountain. The bar will be on the left side facing Willoughby Gap. The "Day Lodge" will be in the connector building. And for those of you that are REALLY concerned about such things, the arcade will be on the right side facing Willoughby Gap  .


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## oldtimer (Mar 4, 2013)

Buried in the drawings is a site plan showing that Ginn owns the land to the east of mountain road.  wonder if that is just not updated or if true?  anyone know?

ALSO- to repeat a thought from a while ago-  form_the_NEK is an artist with google maps, pdfs and sketchup-   very well done-


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Buried in the drawings is a site plan showing that Ginn owns the land to the east of mountain road.  wonder if that is just not updated or if true?  anyone know?



Are you refering to the "Ortho Location Map"? They own a ton of property both sides of the Mtn Road (except between the Main Entrance and the Toll Road) and a lot of the property around Pinkham Road. They even own the land on the other side of Rt 114 where the septic fields and the water intake from the Passumpsic River (for snowmaking) are located. Most of that has been owned by Burke for a long time.
I think Ginn added some property when they were planning a golf course.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2013)

If you look at the Commercial Floor plans:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Plans/Plan A - Commercial Layout.pdf

You can see there will be 30 interior parking spaces (12 East wing, 17 West Wing). A "Family Room" (aka daycare), 150 seat restaurant, 190 seat bar, 300 seat (4500 sq ft) day lodge, 3 conference rooms (containing 300, 50, and 135 seats).

This place is going to be big.

The parasailers and hangliders are going to have to find a new place to land.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2013)

Exterior parking = 14 Eastside, 14 Westside.
The driveway they are building is going to be crazy. Bank on the lower side is going to be around 30' tall.
The driveway also looks like it is going to cut off the lower section of the Mid-Burke parking area.
Then there will be a footbridge connecting to the existing lots over toward the groomer maintenance building. 

For the skiers, there will be a short carpet lift (100-130' long) on the bank that leads up the Mid-Burke Express and another long carpet (400-500' long)  in meadow below the new Lodge/Hotel See the purple lines in my pictures above.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2013)

Also buried in the plans are improvements to the sidewalks, driveway access points and cross walks in downtown East Burke.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Plans/Plan%20S-1%20East%20Burke%20Transportation%20Safety%20and%20Capacity%20Study.pdf

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/... Transportation Safety and Capacity Study.pdf


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## halfpintvt (Mar 5, 2013)

*"Ginn Land"*



from_the_NEK said:


> Are you refering to the "Ortho Location Map"? They own a ton of property both sides of the Mtn Road (except between the Main Entrance and the Toll Road) and a lot of the property around Pinkham Road. They even own the land on the other side of Rt 114 where the septic fields and the water intake from the Passumpsic River (for snowmaking) are located. Most of that has been owned by Burke for a long time.
> I think Ginn added some property when they were planning a golf course.



The Ginn Company does not own any land in Burke. Ginn LA (as in Lubert Adler) was a shareholder in Burke 2000 LLC. Lubert Adler was the majority owner with Ginn having about a 20% stake. The majority of Burke 2000 LLC shares are now owned by Bill Stengar and his partners (the SOS Corp filings show Burke 2000 LLC Personnel of Ariel Quiros and William Kelly)  Burke Mountain Academy may have a minority ownership to protect their interests. Ginn owns nothing in Burke and is out of the picture.


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## oldtimer (Mar 5, 2013)

thanks-  that clarifies it.  Simply a matter of the Act 250 drawings being a tad sloppy.--




halfpintvt said:


> The Ginn Company does not own any land in Burke. Ginn LA (as in Lubert Adler) was a shareholder in Burke 2000 LLC. Lubert Adler was the majority owner with Ginn having about a 20% stake. The majority of Burke 2000 LLC shares are now owned by Bill Stengar and his partners (the SOS Corp filings show Burke 2000 LLC Personnel of Ariel Quiros and William Kelly)  Burke Mountain Academy may have a minority ownership to protect their interests. Ginn owns nothing in Burke and is out of the picture.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 5, 2013)

right, which is why I refered to "Burke" as the owner of the land rather than Ginn. I figured Oldtimer was just have having Ginn flashbacks :-D.


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## xlr8r (Mar 5, 2013)

Okay, after taking a closer look at these plans and images at Burke's website, I have noticed that this new lodge/Hotel is exactly the same as the Tram Haus Lodge just twice as big.  They just took two of the Tram Haus lodge and put a Lobby between them.  The architecture is exactly the same.

see
http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/
http://www.jaypeakresort.com/lodging/lodging-options/tram-haus-lodge

Talk about being original and allowing Burke to keep its own identity.  They are just doing the same thing ASC did with the Grand Summits by building identical buildings at each mountain, and in doing so causing each mountain to lose a bit of its character.  The Grand Summits helped ASC go down the drain and the more I look at Jay Peak's and Stenger's plans I think they will follow suit.

Also this most definitely means the end of the mid Burke lodge as this new hotel will have a resturaunt and bar.  I also wouldn't expect much parking to remain for the day skier at mid Burke once this is all done.  

End of Rant


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## riverc0il (Mar 5, 2013)

Jay's Tram Lodge doesn't strike me as a super original architecture. Pretty straight forward and canned resort styling. I wouldn't accuse Jay of doing the same thing ASC did but they sure aren't being original based on the drawings and it certainly would have been nice to see something at least different and distinctive rather than a complete rehash. But Jay may be trying to cross brand, that visual similarity will certainly fit the bill. The problem is it doesn't really fit Burke as we all knew it. Best get used to the new Burke! Let's see how that dive and bike park fits in...


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 5, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> Okay, after taking a closer look at these plans and images at Burke's website, I have noticed that this new lodge/Hotel is exactly the same as the Tram Haus Lodge just twice as big.  They just took two of the Tram Haus lodge and put a Lobby between them.  The architecture is exactly the same.
> 
> see
> http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/
> ...



expecting something else?  no different than the cookie cutter condo sprawl they are building.  They have to keep it the same in the name of speed. Hourglass is running.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 6, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> They have to keep it the same in the name of speed.



Along with the cross branding, that was my thought as well when they said it would look like the Tram House (note to xlr8r... they have been saying the new hotel would look like the Tram Haus lodge almost from the beginning). They didn't want to have to reinvent the wheel to get this hotel built and the Tram Haus is generally considered to be non-controversial in its design. Going with the same design both streamlines the process and makes it cheaper.
That being said, I hope the next hotel(s) they build are more unique. But I will throw this out there, what is a design that "would fit this area" that wouldn't look dated in 15 years? A giant barn (See Sugarbush)? The Burke/Lyn Manor?





One feature on the Phased Development drawing kind of gives away the location of another lodge. 




Part of the current project for the new dual hotel/lodge is the addition of a 150,000 gallon water tank near the toll road and a huge propane tank behind the groomer maintenance building. The pipeline path (green area) to the new hotel goes through the parking lot just below the Ski Patrol office, where on the phase plan, there is a "Future Connections for Water Main and Gas Line" (see the red arrow in the picture). Will this be the location of another hotel/lodge, while at the same time sealing the fate of the Old Mid-Burke lodge and Bear Den bar?


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## noreasterbackcountry (Mar 6, 2013)

Great work NEK.  

I like to stay positive on what could be a very important project for the area given that anything new always receives more than it's fair share of skepticism in the NEK, but I really have an issue with the cookie cutter design.  Having spent a fair amount of time living in NC and Georgia surrounded by McMansions and soulless condos, I find the lack of an original design downright offensive.  It's a shame they haven't put more thought and care into keeping a unique character.   I mean it isn't like they're hurting for the money to do a better design.  I got the sense they purchased Burke because they had more EB-5 investors than they knew what to do with at Jay.

Is it already too late to get them to rethink this?


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Will this be the location of another hotel/lodge, while at the same time sealing the fate of the Old Mid-Burke lodge and Bear Den bar?



not to worry NEK, they will have a nice historical display case built along side the magic carpet people can admire while are transported from the parking lot to the lodge.

I like the idea of the lyn/burke design, but who are we kidding, that doesn't really connotate a vision of progress in this era or provide the bed base for the many thousands enroute to burke.

@NBC: homogeny is easier, if people like jay, they will like burke, don't want to start confusing people with different experiences


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2013)

Burklyn theme would be neat.  I bet if enough folks suggested to Steve Wright/Bill Stenger the idea of making it more unique, then they might rethink the design.  

Is it as bad as ASC?  No, I don't think so, but I have not really inspected the JPR buildings to really know.  ASC went for cheap, fast, and um, cheap.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Burklyn theme would be neat.  I bet if enough folks suggested to Steve Wright/Bill Stenger the idea of making it more unique, then they might rethink the design.
> 
> Is it as bad as ASC?  No, I don't think so, but I have not really inspected the JPR buildings to really know.  ASC went for cheap, fast, and um, cheap.



I think the boat on getting the facade design changed has already left. Maybe we can hope for future projects but would the designs clash?

I've never been into one of the ASC Grand Summits, so I can't compare quality. However, Jay's buildings seem to be well done.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think the boat on getting the facade design changed has already left. Maybe we can hope for future projects but would the designs clash?



did you get the email?

only 12 slots open NEK, get yourself in there. They are looking for local input on how to best preserve its character.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2013)

Was going to say, ask and ye shall receive:  



> As I'm sure you've heard by now, big changes are coming to Burke Mountain and we want your input!
> 
> While Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros, owners of Jay Peak Resort and more recently Burke Mountain, have already invested $1 million in snowmaking upgrades, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Over the next three years, over $100 million will be invested into improving Burke Mountain Resort. Three hotel-lodges will be built, creating what Burke needs the most - a bed base on the mountain. Burke's amazing terrain that includes both alpine and mountain bike trails will also be expanded upon with the addition of East Bowl trails and the construction of the best mountain bike park in the world. In addition, a world class tennis facility and aquatic center will be built and open to hotel guests as well as the public.
> 
> ...


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 7, 2013)

I answered the email. Let's see what happens 

This part of the email...  "What parts of the Bear Den should be included in a new bar?" makes me a bit worried :sad:. Answer = the whole damn thing!

Cool things about the Bear Den in no particular order:
1. It has views of both the trails on the mountain AND Willoughby Gap.
2. The general construction of the building (exposed beams, worn wood plank floor, etc)
3. The real fireplace that burns real wood.
4. The ground level outdoor seating area on the mountain side.
5. The history in that oozes from the building.
      a. Old Season passes of locals tacked to the beams dating back decades.
      b. The collection of historical mtn artifacts up in the rafters and hanging from the walls.
6. The old rugged as hell furniture.
7. The location (easy in/easy out)


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 7, 2013)

Good luck man. I certainly hope they are serious and not just placating to us.

Still trying to figure out how someone makes 100 million of anything unpretencious, unassuming, and accessible to everyone. But, I'm not super bright so hopefully the powers to be have it figured out.

you would be a good addition to the panel.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 7, 2013)

The more I think about using the Burklyn manor as a influence of design, the more I like it. The huge Doric columns may be a bit much  But it is bold an unique. Design elements could be pulled from the barn too.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 7, 2013)

Oh, and next year's passes just went on sale (good for the rest of this year too). 
$599 Burke only
$699 Judge pass (Burke-Jay combo)


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## riverc0il (Mar 7, 2013)

Coming soon to Burke:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152295170566531&set=o.19659899440&type=1&ref=nf


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2013)

$100 million dollars at Burke is overwhelming.  

Les Otten bought Sugarbush in 1995 for a few million and then spent $28 million in one season there on the upgrades that included Slide Brook Express, and most of the HSQ infrastructure that is there now.  Almost four times that amount for a resort with one peak and less acreage?  Wow.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Coming soon to Burke:
> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152295170566531&set=o.19659899440&type=1&ref=nf



After the way my week has gone, a massage would feel pretty damn good.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Oh, and next year's passes just went on sale (good for the rest of this year too).
> $599 Burke only
> $699 Judge pass (Burke-Jay combo)



Good price.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Mar 7, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I answered the email. Let's see what happens
> 
> This part of the email...  "What parts of the Bear Den should be included in a new bar?" makes me a bit worried :sad:. Answer = the whole damn thing!
> 
> ...



8. The bloody mary recipe.

I know it's the nature of things to change, but still, that question is pretty sad.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 8, 2013)

I would recommend to everyone to be apart of the last days of the bear den.  there are sure to be some serious blow out nights coming up.

it is a good price TB for full access to 2 mountains

with regard to the money, spend it if you got it right, maybe they heat the parking lots so people won't have to shovel, plow or get their loafers wet walking to the magic carpet


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 8, 2013)

I think the current Mid-Lodge and the Bear Den will be around through next year. The new hotel-lodge isn't slated to be done until 2014. However, I agree that we should party more :beer: .


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 8, 2013)

Looking forward, I wonder if something like this can be worked out for the Bear Den?






Keep it where it is, attach it with an elevated hallway to whatever new lodge is built to replace the old Mid-Burke (The lodge I have here is 130'x70'). The orange area is the fenced-in outside seating.
This configuration would likely result in the loss of the wood fireplace in the Bear Den due to the chimney being on the side facing the lodge. I think smoke would have a hard time clearing the area.

In this picture you can also see I included a parking deck over the lot that is at the bottom of the steps. It just covers the upper one of the two lots over there. This would be similar to the parking deck that was built at the Tramside lot at Jay. One of the concerns about all of the planned buildings at Mid-Burke is the lack of parking. I figure the deck, as I have it drawn here, would expand parking by about 150 spaces on the top and 20-30 spaces on the lower level (depending on layout). I think this would be a good option over cutting out satelite parking which would require shuttles.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2013)

New flyover video of the soon to be built hotel\lodge\conference center.






I built an actual model for Google Earth using Sketch-Up. If I submitted it correctly, the 3D model should be visible in Google Earth.


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## oldtimer (Mar 21, 2013)

BRAVO-  that is a fine piece of work.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 21, 2013)

That is just amazing - you do great work!


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## the original trailboss (Mar 21, 2013)

As I started this thread some time ago maybe now is a good time to weigh in here again..... It is going to be a major challenge (I'm trying to be nice here) to do what the new owners have in mind and retain the "character" and "personality" that makes Burke so special in the ski world. Yes, its a throwback (isn't much of the NEK persona?) and yes, it needs some changes and, certainly, I would be the first to agree that there is a long-standing need for on-mountain beds, BUT Burke's biggest asset in the marketplace is what it isn't. Nearly 20 years ago I skied at Jackson Hole and the busiest place on the mountain was a crusty old, and small, Bear Den-ish bar next to the fancy stuff. Skiers can find uber amenities, too many lifts and too much glitz at lots of place (and don't forget all those McDonaldisd, high volume ones!) at lots of places but you can't find many Burke Mountains anymore. Large crowds and liftlines do not lend themselves to personal touches like Burke has (uber resorts with lots of servant-class help notwithstanding) so the challenge is huge! I think the table of 12 is slightly exclusive (but I also submitted my (real) name) but possibly this forum is a good place to have a real discussion about how to accomplish what they are proposing to do...............................


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## riverc0il (Mar 21, 2013)

I'd say retaining the character and personality of the old Burke is not only a major challenge but down right impossible. It is already a different place. I was there two weeks ago and realized something while riding the lift... people aren't chatting it up on the lift. Used to be you might as well get comfortable and strike up a conversation. Now it is just another high speeder. A classic lodge and bar will be destroyed for something we've already seen at Jay (that already looked like it was a standard design from a big resort company). 

Much like Jay, the selling point is that the trails and the skiing is the same (excepting more people on the hill at one time). 

One thing they can't really change is while they will get more guests, they'll never have mega resort numbers. It is always going to be a less busy resort. But I don't think the character of the mountain will be retained at all. It is already changing. It already feels quite different. Ginn didn't change much with the Sherburne Express and lower lodge development. I feel that (aside from some trail widening), nothing much really changed with Ginn. But with what is proposed for Burke, I can't imagine it ever feeling like an old school sleeping ski area with "different than the big resorts" charm.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 22, 2013)

MRG is pretty much the same as when I first skied there in the 60's. Something to be said for that.

I have to deal with the mega resorts but it's always nice to be able to go back to my roots.

Hope it never changes.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm not sure that my model will be approved for inclusion in Google Earth's 3D buildings due to a couple of selection criteria I violated.
Rule 1: Must be a real and permanant structure. 
Rule 5: Must be a single discrete structure.
Rule violation #1 is kind of a given since construction has not yet started. 
Rule violation #5 may get me since I also put the bottom terminal of the Mid-Burke Express in there. 

If anyone has Google Earth and wants the model. It is available for download here:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=5ebd68854f6b6fafabbd4f2282d3f160&prevstart=24


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## SkiRaceParent (Mar 22, 2013)

I am a relative Burke newbie, but have spent a lot of time at the mountain the last two seasons. I also am a bit nervous about the changes, however, I do sense that the people who are making this happen do care a lot. They are from the NEK and are (I hope) going to do the 'right thing'. For instance, in speaking with Rachel earlier this week she says she's looking forward to the changes. I guess it can only be a good thing for her to be positive. I think we should embrace change and be excited about it. If you want old school still then a lot of those places are closing and will be gone forever. I for one am happy Burke has been 'selected'. The alternative would be much worse.


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## riverc0il (Mar 22, 2013)

No doubt open is better than old school closed. No argument from me about that one.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 22, 2013)

I think you missed the point of my comments - I was not disparaging any future plans, only asking how the new owners are going to live up to their own promises/comments concerning the "character" and "personality" of the of the Burke we all know. These are their remarks,not mine!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I am a relative Burke newbie, but have spent a lot of time at the mountain the last two seasons. I also am a bit nervous about the changes, however, I do sense that the people who are making this happen do care a lot. They are from the NEK and are (I hope) going to do the 'right thing'. For instance, in speaking with Rachel earlier this week she says she's looking forward to the changes. I guess it can only be a good thing for her to be positive. I think we should embrace change and be excited about it. If you want old school still then a lot of those places are closing and will be gone forever. I for one am happy Burke has been 'selected'. The alternative would be much worse.



Depends on what the "change" is we're talking about.  

The "old school" thing is what Burke is and what the marketing folks are marketing it as.  As TOTB said, it's what they are saying. 

The person you were talking about is happy because it will hopefully mean job security and, FWIW, the former owners were very strict about what employees could and could not say about the business.  So I'd take those comments with a grain of salt.  

I think the bigger concern is the community at Burke and trying to keep that in place while making the business sustainable.  But I think the worry is if the balance is tipped too much to one side.


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## riverc0il (Mar 22, 2013)

If they have promised to retain the character and personality of Burke, they will fail miserably. It is already changing. The best they can do is limit the damage and differentiate themselves from other resorts due to a more laid back vibe. It will never again be old school. My most recent trip report from Burke was actually entitled "Out With the Old School". One comment I made was that in many ways, the experience has improved. But it definitely ain't old school any more.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 22, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Depends on what the "change" is we're talking about.
> 
> The "old school" thing is what Burke is and what the marketing folks are marketing it as.  As TOTB said, it's what they are saying.
> 
> ...




what worry? It has to shift to be sustainable now. Local income can't float the bills these projects are demanding. The idea of community is out the window, they need numbers and numbers that carry wallets, watching another american dream unfold. its nice rhetoric though, feels nice.

kind of like jay is unchangeable, feels nice, tried to buy a season pass today and was told to come back later because the computer was down, used to have paper you could fill out, I suppose they are doing me a service though, I hadn't been to tramside in almost 2 years, some nice steps and grocery facilities.

I am curious who carries this torch into the ground when Bill steps down.


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## xlr8r (Mar 23, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> New flyover video of the soon to be built hotel\lodge\conference center.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any idea how the grading will be between the lodge and the base of the Mid-Burke Express.  I hope its not another one those schleps uphill just to get from lodge to lift


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 23, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> Any idea how the grading will be between the lodge and the base of the Mid-Burke Express.  I hope its not another one those schleps uphill just to get from lodge to lift



I figure it is going to be about a 20 ft vert uphill schlep from the new lodge to the lift. However, they have a carpet lift on the plan (purple line between the lodge and the lift) for those that can't handle walking uphill.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 25, 2013)

Its kind of to bad they are going with the Jay like structures, with the slope angle there it would seem they could have gone with a walk out design, dropped the building height a few floors and preserve some of the openess the lower field offered.  Save the high rise for the lower lodge and wow factor.

I did like ginn's idea of the farm development.  Wonder if that will ever come back onto the table.  certainly seems better than parking garages everywhere.

if they are going to grade something they should be grading the run out from the lower lift to the mid burke lift, hell, thats where a magic carpet would be better utilized IMO


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry about the computer system burping (though, given the proclivity toward same-as-it-ever-was, maybe we should just back up the truck and replace the computers with several dozen abacuses, some slate and some chalk), but you bring up a good point-we probably chould have taken your name and info and run the #cc when the system came back up.  Problem being, and we can lay blame in lots of direction for this, not just up the 242, writing names and credit cards down in any capacity that doesn't lock them in somehow is now sort of frowned upon; changeable alas.

Curious though, given the dread of what we've done/doing/will do to Jay Peak, why the interest in a SP?  Don't get me wrong, and I'm not being trite, just wondering what it is that motivates as, clearly, the Ice Haus, Waterpark and heated stairs have also deconstructed the mtn experience too.

I realize marketing is a bullseye for boo-birds and will certainly take the expected, if low-brow, slugs for that and will also spare you the screed'n associated with we think is still the same here; there are lots of pages and we don't all need to be on the same one.

Glad to hear you'll be around for at least another year; who knows, maybe you'll be around for the torch buryin'



kingdom-tele said:


> what worry? It has to shift to be sustainable now. Local income can't float the bills these projects are demanding. The idea of community is out the window, they need numbers and numbers that carry wallets, watching another american dream unfold. its nice rhetoric though, feels nice.
> 
> kind of like jay is unchangeable, feels nice, tried to buy a season pass today and was told to come back later because the computer was down, used to have paper you could fill out, I suppose they are doing me a service though, I hadn't been to tramside in almost 2 years, some nice steps and grocery facilities.
> 
> I am curious who carries this torch into the ground when Bill steps down.


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## kingdom-tele (Mar 25, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Sorry about the computer system burping (though, given the proclivity toward same-as-it-ever-was, maybe we should just back up the truck and replace the computers with several dozen abacuses, some slate and some chalk), but you bring up a good point-we probably chould have taken your name and info and run the #cc when the system came back up. Problem being, and we can lay blame in lots of direction for this, not just up the 242, writing names and credit cards down in any capacity that doesn't lock them in somehow is now sort of frowned upon; changeable alas.
> 
> Curious though, given the dread of what we've done/doing/will do to Jay Peak, why the interest in a SP? Don't get me wrong, and I'm not being trite, just wondering what it is that motivates as, clearly, the Ice Haus, Waterpark and heated stairs have also deconstructed the mtn experience too.
> 
> ...



A SP? Because I live 15 min from a mountain I love.  Because the mid week pass is a good deal.  Because I enjoy making turns. because I miss skiing with friends I only ever see on lift side of J. should I go on?

Oddly enough you haven't done anything to the hill, so as long as I can stomach the mid week price (which is great FWIW) I will resume being a contributor to JPR for skiing.  I also love the rink, great addition to our local area and the price for its access is great.  

My dig at the computer system had little to do with the service, it was more just commentary on the larger changing environment, the ideology that more complex is always better. I merely feel there is a market for selling a more simple experience.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 25, 2013)

No, you've said plenty, thanks; I get it.  And glad the price still works.  And a good part of me agrees with your perspective too.

Enjoy the rest of the season.

steve



kingdom-tele said:


> A SP? Because I live 15 min from a mountain I love.  Because the mid week pass is a good deal.  Because I enjoy making turns. because I miss skiing with friends I only ever see on lift side of J. should I go on?
> 
> Oddly enough you haven't done anything to the hill, so as long as I can stomach the mid week price (which is great FWIW) I will resume being a contributor to JPR for skiing.  I also love the rink, great addition to our local area and the price for its access is great.
> 
> My dig at the computer system had little to do with the service, it was more just commentary on the larger changing environment, the ideology that more complex is always better. I merely feel there is a market for selling a more simple experience.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2013)

So here's a question for folks who are still local at Burke: other than the one or two days in January, how many days have they run the Willoughby Quad this year?


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 26, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> So here's a question for folks who are still local at Burke: other than the one or two days in January, how many days have they run the Willoughby Quad this year?



AFAIK those couple of occasions were the only time it ran this year. They may have spun it up a couple times here and there, "just to keep it loose".


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2013)

Just found this.....very interesting and some good vintage footage of Burke.


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## thetrailboss (May 10, 2013)

Sounds like Burke had a good season.  



> BURKE -- With exciting plans on the horizon, Q Burke Mountain Resort is poised for better and better seasons, but this past season saw an improvement, thanks to an infusion of funds from the new owners.
> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Friday, May 10, 2013[/FONT]



Can someone who has a full subscription to the Cal Rec post the full article?


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## from_the_NEK (May 17, 2013)

Unfortunately I don't have a full subscription to the Cal Rec and I didn't get to read the hard copy either :???:

In other rumor news, according to a friend saw some renderings, the restaurant and bar in the new Mid-Burke Hotel/Lodge is going to be pretty swanky. I think the "replacement" to the Bear Den will be in the more day/local skier oriented lodge that will be built as the replacement to the current Mid-Burke lodge.
EB-5 money can't be used to renovate a building. It can only be used for new construction, which may be part of the reason why the current Bear Den is likely going to the wrecking ball.
Speaking of wrecking balls...

The most jaw dropping part of this conversation I had was that the Sherburne base lodge may also see the wrecking ball as part of phase 2-3. Rather than building a entirely new hotel/lodge to lookers left of the Sherburne HSQ, it sounds like the existing lodge may get flattened and replaced by a entirely new hotel/lodge. I don't know of anything wrong with the current lodge. IMHO, the upstairs bar/restaurant is really nice with high ceilings and a really nice fireplace (even though it has been converted to gas  ). They are currently doing some pretty major interior renovations to the lodge. Creating a ski locker/cubby space where the rental shop was and turning the bag check area into a merchandise store. I haven't yet heard where the rental shop has been moved to. 
Tearing down the Sherburne lodge sounds a bit extreme to me but I know useable ground space is an issue around the base area, so maybe this is the best solution they could come up with and still be able to use EB-5 money?


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## SkiRaceParent (May 17, 2013)

I really hope they don't rebuild Shelburne and instead they focus their build efforts elsewhere. It would seem like a waste to me and definitely would not fly with with the conservation-conscious locals of the NEK!


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## from_the_NEK (May 17, 2013)

Is this what we will see?


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## thetrailboss (May 18, 2013)

Nice logos there, FTN.  

Interesting about Sherburne.  I heard that the previous ownership was really begging the Burkeside owners to sell out so that they could demo those condos and expand the base area lodge over there.  

I'd like to see that EB-5 money go into more snowmaking for Burke personally.  Don't widen the trails--just run a few more lines, add some more compressors and pumps, and you're good to go.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 3, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I'd like to see that EB-5 money go into more snowmaking for Burke personally.  Don't widen the trails--just run a few more lines, add some more compressors and pumps, and you're good to go.



I don't think EB-5 money can be usedfor aproject like that since the money invested has to "produce" a certain return of jobs created. Snow making costs a lot of money with few additional jobs easily tied to it. The kind of investment has to come out of Q-Burke's pockets I think. Same goes for other "improvements" to the skiing experience (trails expansion, lifts, etc).

On another note, the mountain has been pretty quite this summer other than some expansion of lower mtn MTB trails. There hasn't been really any movement on the new hotel/lodge. 
The Act 250 permit has yet to be approved and I can't really tell if the following is what is holding up the progress. 

A neighbor (owner of the "Stone House") has filed a Party Status Petition stating the new development will create a traffic issue that will harm their home and make accesing the driveway of their home unsafe. 

Initial Complaint - http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Compiano-Ryczek Party Status Petition.pdf
Q-Burke response - http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Applicant response-Compiano.pdf
Complaintant Response to the response - http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...ty Status Petition response June 11, 2013.pdf

That corner is kind of blind and it is easy to speed through there . Burke proposed some reasonable modifications to make things safer. However, other than an outright redesign of the road, I think the owner is going to have issues. I could see removing the curve altogether and bring the road down from the Mid-Lodge to a 4 way intersection with Pinkham Rd and Rexford Rd. The vast majority of traffic would have to make right turn going up the Mountain Rd. Traffic coming down would have to Stop and turn left.
Seems pretty simple, however I'm sure there are a whole range of additional permits and such that would need to be waded through to do something like this.

Solution A:






[/URL][/IMG]


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## Boardguy (Jul 7, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice logos there, FTN.
> 
> Interesting about Sherburne. I heard that the previous ownership was really begging the Burkeside owners to sell out so that they could demo those condos and expand the base area lodge over there.




We have had a condo at Burkeside since the late 90's and I have never received any offers from the any of the mountain owners. Quite a few units have changed hands recently and I don't think the mountain has purchased any of them but perhaps they have.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 31, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> On another note, the mountain has been pretty quite this summer other than some expansion of lower mtn MTB trails. There hasn't been really any movement on the new hotel/lodge.
> The Act 250 permit has yet to be approved and I can't really tell if the following is what is holding up the progress.
> 
> A neighbor (owner of the "Stone House") has filed a Party Status Petition stating the new development will create a traffic issue that will harm their home and make accesing the driveway of their home unsafe.
> ...


Sounds like this is indeed holding up Act 250 approval. The owners of the Stone House want the road modified (widened shoulders) or realigned as I diagramed above. To redo this intersection would likely require additional permits from the town of Burke and another Act 250 application since it would technically be a separate project. Interesting to see if they can get this built by December 2014 at this rate.  And they want the hotel to have an alternate access via Alpine Ln. Alpine Ln runs directly through BMA and has even more blind corners and steeper hills. Talk about trying to improve your situation by making someone else's worse. :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sounds like this is indeed holding up Act 250 approval. The owners of the Stone House want the road modified (widened shoulders) or realigned as I diagramed above. To redo this intersection would likely require additional permits from the town of Burke and another Act 250 application since it would technically be a separate project. Interesting to see if they can get this built by December 2014 at this rate.  And they want the hotel to have an alternate access via Alpine Ln. Alpine Ln runs directly through BMA and has even more blind corners and steeper hills. Talk about trying to improve your situation by making someone else's worse. :roll:



It was nice seeing you a few days ago, FTN.  

When you get a chance, take a drive to the Sherburne Base Lodge and check out all of the modular units that are parked in the parking area.  Word has it from my sources that those are the components for the NEW hotel just waiting to be put into place.  So it looks like they are actually moving ahead and will have to get this Stonehouse issue resolved sooner rather than later.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 31, 2013)

Seems a bit bold ordering all of the prefabbed units before they even have the permits to break ground. I wonder if they are the virtually same design as the units that are being used to construct the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge and they saved a ton of money ordering enough for all three hotels (technically the new Mid-Burke hotel is two hotels joined by a common area). Maybe I'll take a spin up there tomorrow.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Seems a bit bold ordering all of the prefabbed units before they even have the permits to break ground. I wonder if they are the virtually same design as the units that are being used to construct the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge and they saved a ton of money ordering enough for all three hotels (technically the new Mid-Burke hotel is two hotels joined by a common area). Maybe I'll take a spin up there tomorrow.



A little birdie just whispered in my ear that the word now is that these modular units are actually for Bear Path and not Mid-Burke.  Sorry about that confusion.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 31, 2013)

Ahh yes, that is the "Landowner project" that closed down the Knightslayer lift served MTB trail for a few days last month. Interesting that they are going with modular units. I wasn't really paying close attention to it but I wonder if the units that were built a couple of years ago also used the same approach?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Ahh yes, that is the "Landowner project" that closed down the Knightslayer lift served MTB trail for a few days last month. Interesting that they are going with modular units. I wasn't really paying close attention to it but I wonder if the units that were built a couple of years ago also used the same approach?



The ones that Masskier built in 2007-2008 were stick built from what I saw as I was skiing by.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 31, 2013)

That is what I was thinking as well.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2013)

I recall seeing several different local contractors' trucks there during that winter.


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## Masskier (Aug 1, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> The ones that Masskier built in 2007-2008 were stick built from what I saw as I was skiing by.



The first two Bear Path buildings were panelized  and stick built.  This phase is a combination of stick built and modular.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 12, 2013)

QBurke received approval of its Act 250 permit last Monday. http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Findings.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2013)

Hotel going in...subdivision going out it looks like.  So much for Camber Heights!


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## Masskier (Aug 13, 2013)

They should begin construction very soon


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## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2013)

Masskier said:


> They should begin construction very soon



Please tell us that Bear Den Lounge and Mid-Burke will be there at least one more season. 

I hope that the Bear Den will be rebuilt somewhere on premises.  That is a classic.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 13, 2013)

The Mid-Burke and Bear Den will be there this season. Not sure how long it will take them to tear it down once the season is over. My guess is the bulldozer will be parked outside ready to go the morning after the lifts shut down in April. Every indication I've seen has the Bear Den meeting the fate bulldozer as well. Although it sounds like a new bar will be furnished with much of the memorabilia from the current bar :roll:. It just won't be the same for many reasons described in past posts. I get the feeling Stenger sees the entire Mid-Burke/Bear Den complex as an outdated eyesore. Replacing the lodge I can handle, but losing the bar makes me :sad:.


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## dlague (Aug 13, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Mid-Burke and Bear Den will be there this season. Not sure how long it will take them to tear it down once the season is over. My guess is the bulldozer will be parked outside ready to go the morning after the lifts shut down in April. Every indication I've seen has the Bear Den meeting the fate bulldozer as well. Although it sounds like a new bar will be furnished with much of the memorabilia from the current bar :roll:. It just won't be the same for many reasons described in past posts. I get the feeling Stenger sees the entire Mid-Burke/Bear Den complex as an outdated eyesore. Replacing the lodge I can handle, but losing the bar makes me :sad:.



+1  Makes me sad too!  It was the site of our graduation party when I was at LSC, not to mention all of the happy times during ski season!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2013)

dlague said:


> +1  Makes me sad too!  It was the site of our graduation party when I was at LSC, not to mention all of the happy times during ski season!


  You went to LSC?  What year?  Cool.  

Masskier and others need to convince Bill to re-use/rebuild the Bear Den.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2013)

The latest:  http://vtdigger.org/2013/08/12/northeast-kingdom-development-projects-change-shape/

Rendering as to what Mid-Burke will look like:  








> [h=4]Burke Mountain[/h]_Estimated cost: $160 million_
> *Project description:* Phase I ($98 million) will see construction of two hotels, with a combined 112 suites. The company recently received project approval under Act 250, Vermont’s land use law; it anticipates breaking ground by the end of August or early September and welcoming guests in December 2014. Construction of an aquatic center, tennis facility and indoor mountain biking park will start next summer, with plans to open in summer 2015. In Phase II, two additional hotels, again with 112 suites, also are planned for construction starting in 2015.
> *Job creation projections:* Development and construction will create about 2,000 full-time direct and indirect jobs. More than 400 permanent, full-time jobs in Vermont will support the resort’s ongoing operations.
> - See more at: http://vtdigger.org/2013/08/12/nort...t-projects-change-shape/#sthash.hsg2xA75.dpuf


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2013)

...and they're already raising the $$$ for it:



> Two other projects have received the foreign investment approval: *expansions at Burke Mountain ski resort for $160 million,* and a $110 million plan to build a biomedical research park on a hill overlooking the city of Newport. - See more at: http://vtdigger.org/2013/08/12/nort...t-projects-change-shape/#sthash.hsg2xA75.dpuf


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2013)

The total impact for Jay, Newport, and Burke projects:



> The following projections total $465 million. In $500,000 increments, that would total 930 immigrant investors, if no additional, private financing were to be utilized. Multiplied by 10 jobs per investment, the combined projects could add up to 9,300 workers to the regional and national economy. - See more at: http://vtdigger.org/2013/08/12/nort...t-projects-change-shape/#sthash.hsg2xA75.dpuf


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## dlague (Aug 19, 2013)

I grew up in that area and Newport has always been depressed with promises of large businesses moving in, then at the last second poof the deal was dead.  It is nice to see this one coming to light!  Many locals are upset still - they are complaining that the jobs are mostly low wage.  Unemployment is high there so I am sure this will help!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2013)

dlague said:


> I grew up in that area and Newport has always been depressed with promises of large businesses moving in, then at the last second poof the deal was dead.  It is nice to see this one coming to light!  Many locals are upset still - they are complaining that the jobs are mostly low wage.  Unemployment is high there so I am sure this will help!



I think that low wage jobs is a [short term] concern.  Eventually this will lead to more jobs and help to create development of new higher wage jobs eventually.  Any new economic development is good economic development.


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## kingdom-tele (Aug 19, 2013)

unemployment isn't high because of a lack of minimum wage jobs, I suppose a minimum wage job in a new building though may be different.

TB- they said the same thing about the wind towers in lowell, any green energy is good, come to find out the new england grid doesn't even use it to its potential and they are dumping energy or only running a portion of the wind farm.

The foresight of these "developments" is second only to a mole. 

The NEK is the new field of dreams.


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## dlague (Aug 19, 2013)

Hopefully training and education a part of the plan!  Or higher wage jobs will be produced through promotions.


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## kingdom-tele (Aug 20, 2013)

tell that to the 4 long term burke employees just let go.  jay is looking for more shuttle drivers so maybe they just got relocated?

I guess I just don't always see all economic development as good economic development, but then again I am happy living here as it is, so my vision of the future is more skeptical.

It will be something if this goes how they plan it, but the kingdom has a way of ingesting and spewing out businesses and people who want to make it something other than what it has been, for good or bad. Investing in the community is what sticks, it's to small otherwise, putting economic bottom lines first at the expense of the small group who are here doesn't last long, there just aren't enough people otherwise to sustain it.

Newport razing begins in January, be interesting to watch this evolve.


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## the original trailboss (Aug 20, 2013)

Minimum wage jobs are just that - opportunity for advancement and pay increases are few and far between. In Vermont, minimum wage employees enjoy a (sort-of) regular pay increase because the state's minimum wage law is tied to an index (name escapes me), not because their job opportunity improves or advancement is likely.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 20, 2013)

My point was that the creation of new jobs will lead to a demand for other services and other jobs that pay more. I agree that jobs at the resort are not likely to be very well paying or offer the opportunities for advancement within the company. And I'd say that [normally] this would lead to more economic growth except that we're talking about Vermont and that KT's point of "economic development vs. good economic development" seems to happen more often than not.


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## awf170 (Aug 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think EB-5 money can be usedfor aproject like that since the money invested has to "produce" a certain return of jobs created. Snow making costs a lot of money with few additional jobs easily tied to it. The kind of investment has to come out of Q-Burke's pockets I think. Same goes for other "improvements" to the skiing experience (trails expansion, lifts, etc).
> 
> On another note, the mountain has been pretty quite this summer other than some expansion of lower mtn MTB trails. There hasn't been really any movement on the new hotel/lodge.
> The Act 250 permit has yet to be approved and I can't really tell if the following is what is holding up the progress.
> ...




I'm honored that something I (partially) wrote has found its way onto AlpineZone (I work for RSG)!

Interesting idea about the rerouting.... man that is a whole lot of money for one silly house. How steep is that area where you sketched your proposed road in? When/If this project gets back to us I'm going to cite "from_the_NEK" as one of sources. Thanks for the free consulting work! ;-)


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 20, 2013)

awf170 said:


> I'm honored that something I (partially) wrote has found its way onto AlpineZone (I work for RSG)!
> 
> Interesting idea about the rerouting.... man that is a whole lot of money for one silly house. How steep is that area where you sketched your proposed road in? When/If this project gets back to us I'm going to cite "from_the_NEK" as one of sources. Thanks for the free consulting work! ;-)


I'm not sure this project is going to come back to you. The Act 250 board approved the Hotel project without any physical modifications to the road. Just better signage and some vegetation removal to improve sight lines.
The intersection above wouldn’t have been super steep. However, I could see there being issues with cars turning right to go up the hill from a complete stop on a slippery roads conditions day.

On a sad and frustrating note, I reformatted my computer and lost the contents of the My Places that I had spent years building in Google Earth. The My Places contains all of the polygons, lines, image overlay placements, etc. It is going to take a while to recreate a lot of that stuff. I still have my 3D building files that I created since I did back those up correctly.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 20, 2013)

ah man.  you had lots of google earth...

you even spured me to learn how to do that.  I have used the plan overlay for work proposals plenty of times!


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## jaytrem (Aug 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> On a sad and frustrating note, I reformatted my computer and lost the contents of the My Places that I had spent years building in Google Earth. The My Places contains all of the polygons, lines, image overlay placements, etc. It is going to take a while to recreate a lot of that stuff. I still have my 3D building files that I created since I did back those up correctly.



That sucks, have you tried to recover the files?  I had some luck with this over the weekend...

http://www.piriform.com/recuva

Got back about 90% of the pictures on a reformatted SD card.


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## the original trailboss (Aug 20, 2013)

*minimum wage jobs do not lead to a demand for other services*



thetrailboss said:


> My point was that the creation of new jobs will lead to a demand for other services and other jobs that pay more. I agree that jobs at the resort are not likely to be very well paying or offer the opportunities for advancement within the company. And I'd say that [normally] this would lead to more economic growth except that we're talking about Vermont and that KT's point of "economic development vs. good economic development" seems to happen more often than not.



Minimum wage jobs do not lead to a demand for other services, other than social services. And, as you alluded to, economic development does not always lead to benefits for other than a few.......


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## zeke (Aug 20, 2013)

With the Jay improvements over the last several years, it shouldn't be a tough track record to measure. Has that economic development and the jobs it created helped the area? if so, this model works.


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## kingdom-tele (Aug 21, 2013)

http://www.google.com/search?client...county+VT+unemployment+rate&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Salvation? The trend is pretty clear up here. Maybe adding 9300 people to the work force is the best way to hide the consistent 1,000 or so who have no interest in working.

How about them social services?  Any idea what a part time, seasonal employee has for medical coverage? They aren't really going out of their way to unburden the social safety net if you know what I mean.

There are changes though, local B&B/Inns are selling out, hockey teams are spending tons of cash, local tradesmen are busy fixing all the backwards construction, etc.  Not sure I fully understand the model they are using, I suppose as long as they keep building infrastructure those job numbers work out, if nothing else we'll have some of the finest empty buildings in the country, 930 investors and counting...


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## the original trailboss (Aug 21, 2013)

*Part-time jobs and more part-time jobs*



kingdom-tele said:


> http://www.google.com/search?client...county+VT+unemployment+rate&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
> 
> Salvation? The trend is pretty clear up here. Maybe adding 9300 people to the work force is the best way to hide the consistent 1,000 or so who have no interest in working.
> 
> ...



Just to throw a little fuel on the fire - Sen. Leahy has proposed an amendment to the EB-5 program which would allow projects to hire multiple part-time employees instead of a single "full-time" employee (example: two 20-hour per week part-time employees would equal one full-time employee). Its not hard to believe that the part-time jobs will likely always be at or near minimum wage. This also might affect some of the state agency/education system plans to offer "training" for all these new jobs - wow! they'll need more administrators and instructors to handle all those extra part-timers they'll need to train!  And those ARE good-paying jobs.............


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## bigbog (Aug 21, 2013)

*awf170* has been heard from!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> Just to throw a little fuel on the fire - Sen. Leahy has proposed an amendment to the EB-5 program which would allow projects to hire multiple part-time employees instead of a single "full-time" employee (example: two 20-hour per week part-time employees would equal one full-time employee).



Yeah, that's not a good idea.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 3, 2013)

My good friend Roo Moore was by this weekend and he tells me that there will be no bulldozers at Burke until spring. A sigh of relief and a  flickering hope that the next six months will bring a re-thinking of the two hotel/base lodge package at mid-Burke.......


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 3, 2013)

I stopped up at Mid-Burke last night and nothing had been done. I was wondering if they were delaying this project until the Jay Stateside project is complete. And hopefully they do rethink the design and let Burke have some of its own identity by using a design that isn't a reproduction of the Tram Haus Lodge. I also think they are getting A LOT of grief about the planned removal of the Bear Den.


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## oldtimer (Sep 3, 2013)

Me thinks this is about the $.  In the press release announcing the approval of the Act 250 permit there was a short comment about "fundraising" being done before the start of this phase.  Sounds like they have investors who have not funded the work yet, only promised.  Thus it is now time to see what part of the money is serious.

As far as the grief about the Bear Den, I think you may be being overly optimistic.  This crew does not seem to be very sentimental.  5 long term emps (most of the top of the management team) are gone and many I know in important positions have not heard a peep from Q junior and the team from Jay.

I do not expect inspired and creative things this winter.  I expect a survival mode approach with a creep of the Jay Way in all departments.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 3, 2013)

I think that there is no excavation because the money is not in hand yet. As noted, Bill is "fundraising" and right now he and the Governor are in China seeking capital. So once the money is in hand, the paperwork is done, then I think we will see something more definite.  Will Burke have a "Made in China" label now?  

I also *hope* that Bear Den will be saved. FWIW I see on FB that there have been some bands up there this summer. I think that the plan is to run the place this winter and, like the last how many ever years, to just keep things going for now before they do their work next year. And I fear that they will just pull out the Jay play book since that is what they know and what is easiest. Tram Haus II coming soon? 

And it's interesting how we are all here again like with Bear Kingdom Ltd, Northern Star, and Ginn with the feeling of the inevitability of change that always seems to be right on the horizon but yet never comes. Like those previous times, there are lots of ideas but no money.


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## AdironRider (Sep 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that there is no excavation because the money is not in hand yet. As noted, Bill is "fundraising" and right now he and the Governor are in China seeking capital. So once the money is in hand, the paperwork is done, then I think we will see something more definite.  Will Burke have a "Made in China" label now?
> 
> I also *hope* that Bear Den will be saved. FWIW I see on FB that there have been some bands up there this summer. I think that the plan is to run the place this winter and, like the last how many ever years, to just keep things going for now before they do their work next year. And I fear that they will just pull out the Jay play book since that is what they know and what is easiest. Tram Haus II coming soon?
> 
> And it's interesting how we are all here again like with Bear Kingdom Ltd, Northern Star, and Ginn with the feeling of the inevitability of change that always seems to be right on the horizon but yet never comes. Like those previous times, there are lots of ideas but no money.



Way back in this thread I kinda imply that Jay has reached a sort of "tipping point" so to speak with their growth and expectations. Everything they've touched has turned to gold so far, and I think its clouding their judgment. At some point EB-5 money will stop rolling in, and I'm going to be interested to see what happens. Based on their diving and seriously crackpot plans they seem to be coming up with today, I'm afraid Jay might be heading towards disaster.


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## dlague (Sep 5, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Way back in this thread I kinda imply that Jay has reached a sort of "tipping point" so to speak with their growth and expectations. Everything they've touched has turned to gold so far, and I think its clouding their judgment. At some point EB-5 money will stop rolling in, and I'm going to be interested to see what happens. Based on their diving and seriously crackpot plans they seem to be coming up with today, I'm afraid Jay might be heading towards disaster.



Interesting point!  I have to think that they foretasted the potential for EB-5 money based on some solid contacts or connections.


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## crank (Sep 5, 2013)

I think the big attraction at Burke will be shark jumping!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2013)

crank said:


> I think the big attraction at Burke will be shark jumping!



:roll:


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2013)

The latest:


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Burke MountainPower Lines Being Extended For Snowmaking, Hotel*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]LYNDONVILLE -- Q Burke Mountain Resort is working with the Lyndonville Electric Department to upgrade electric service to meet increased power needs for snow-making this ski season and the planned hotel, LED Manager Ken Mason told Lyndonville Village Trustees this week.[/FONT]


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2013)

And as to the development,  I think we can all agree that the real reason is that they have not raised the EB-5 money yet.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Way back in this thread I kinda imply that Jay has reached a sort of "tipping point" so to speak with their growth and expectations. Everything they've touched has turned to gold so far, and I think its clouding their judgment. At some point EB-5 money will stop rolling in, and I'm going to be interested to see what happens. Based on their diving and seriously crackpot plans they seem to be coming up with today, I'm afraid Jay might be heading towards disaster.



That is a fair point.  And with the problems in DC, folks might be rethinking investing in this country.


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## Masskier (Oct 6, 2013)

For years Burke used electricity to make snow at night during off peak hours.   Now they will be able to make snow 24 hours a day.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2013)

Masskier said:


> For years Burke used electricity to make snow at night during off peak hours.   Now they will be able to make snow 24 hours a day.



That's not completely accurate.  Burke used a generator for many years so that they could make snow around the clock when needed. The increased electric line is for the hotel, etc. and my understanding was that Burke had an agreement with LED to not make snow using electricity because of electric rates and electric supply, not necessarily because of the line to Mid-Burke.


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## Masskier (Oct 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That's not completely accurate.  Burke used a generator for many years so that they could make snow around the clock when needed. The increased electric line is for the hotel, etc. and my understanding was that Burke had an agreement with LED to not make snow using electricity because of electric rates and electric supply, not necessarily because of the line to Mid-Burke.



Correct,   Sorry I wasn't more clear.  Burke use to rent diesel compressors, that was a major disadvantage as the price of fuel sky rocketed. They only rented them for approx 45 days, very seldon using them after New Years,  Then last year they bought Marge ( electric compressor).  But because of their agreement with LED it was only used at night,  Now with the new line and a new agreement they have all the power they need for the new hotel and snow making.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 6, 2013)

I believe the large new substation LED built in Lyndonville a couple of years ago also gives them more capacity and greater reliability. Thereby allowing a new line like this to work.
The project is actually two line (on the same pole route?). One line is for snowmaking and will be billed under the "Interruptible service rate". The second line will be for the hotel and be billed under "General Service Large". I'm guessing the "interruptible" rate is cheaper.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 6, 2013)

Not using generators will also allow them the remove the shed that housed them which is very close to where the new hotel is going to be built.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 11, 2013)

http://vtdigger.org/2013/10/01/shumlin-stenger-return-eb-5-promo-trip-asia/

Informative EB-5 article..in between a lot of political ranting about the government not having raised the funds to invest in politician travel and instead the programs investing in them, it's fairly informative, especially the following: '“I’m expecting between 100 and 150 investors to come from this trip,” Stenger said Tuesday, the majority to solidify in the next 30 days.

That would yield between $50 million and $75 million in capital, to be split between Newport’s future AnC Bio and Burke Mountain. Stenger is not authorized yet to raise funds for Jay Peak’s other planned development, a combined mixed-use block, marina and waterfront hotel in downtown Newport.'


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## kingdom-tele (Oct 16, 2013)

Anyone know if they are keeping the Sunday afternoon half day reasonable price?


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## the original trailboss (Oct 22, 2013)

Interesting to note that the Burke website still shows a late 2014 date for the opening of the hotel..........................


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> Interesting to note that the Burke website still shows a late 2014 date for the opening of the hotel..........................



I think that we all agree that this has been postponed.  There's no site work going on now.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 22, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> Interesting to note that the Burke website still shows a late 2014 date for the opening of the hotel..........................


Have you heard any feedback from the panel session we did last Spring?


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 22, 2013)

In related Hotel news...
http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php
Check out the new logo near the top. Not sure if this is a new official logo but I like the incorporation of the Bear and the Mtn with the “Q” being understated.


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## Smellytele (Oct 22, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> In related Hotel news...
> http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php
> Check out the new logo near the top. Not sure if this is a new official logo but I like the incorporation of the Bear and the Mtn with the “Q” being understated.



The guinea pig kind of creeps me out. Don't think I want to sleep in a bed that had a guinea pig in it.


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, we will be.



kingdom-tele said:


> Anyone know if they are keeping the Sunday afternoon half day reasonable price?


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 22, 2013)

Thank you.



from_the_NEK said:


> In related Hotel news...
> http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php
> Check out the new logo near the top. Not sure if this is a new official logo but I like the incorporation of the Bear and the Mtn with the “Q” being understated.


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 22, 2013)

Not even if he's wearing a bathrobe and is, you know, charming?



Smellytele said:


> The guinea pig kind of creeps me out. Don't think I want to sleep in a bed that had a guinea pig in it.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 22, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Not even if he's wearing a bathrobe and is, you know, charming?



They always look cute and cuddly until they go evil and start gnawing on your toes in the middle of the night.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2013)

I was just about to say that I like the new logo.  Nice work.  Glad to see that Burke heard what folks were saying on that one.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> They always look cute and cuddly until they go evil and start gnawing on your toes in the middle of the night.



You sound like you are speaking from experience (?) :blink:


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

So the new logo is getting mixed reviews:







Folks like the bear.  But some think it looks too scary.  

The huge "Q" is not liked.  I initially did not even notice it until someone pointed it out.  I'm not sure what the connection is to the mountain...if any.    

FWIW past ski area owners who marketed themselves instead of their ski area *have not done so well.*  And with Burke being a modest, unpretentious, locals resort, I don't see this working.  But my opinion, and $2.00, gets you a cup of coffee......


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

And it looks remarkably similar to this logo from 1991-1995:


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> So the new logo is getting mixed reviews:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed.  I think the Q is ridiculous.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 23, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.  I think the Q is ridiculous.



the Q doesn't bother me at all. I couldn't care less about it. I like the bear and mountain.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 23, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> the Q doesn't bother me at all. I couldn't care less about it. I like the bear and mountain.



I'm solidly with thetrailboss on this one.  I fail to see while adding your first initial is relevant.  May be I fear the upcoming Q-Jay Peak. Otherwise, the logo looks great.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 24, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Yes, we will be.



great.  couldn't find any info on the website.  price?

the logo is pretentious. but, like ST said, the mountain is the mountain.  Now if they could actually sell a T shirt with a picture of Burke on it instead of some no name peak out west that would be great.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2013)

Here's the thing: there are a lot of mountains who do have visible management/ownership but they don't put their names out there on marketing. Everyone knows that Win Smith owns Sugarbush and he comes in here on occasion.  He is out on the front lines.  But he does not put his initials on the logo or change the name to "Win's Sugarbush" or anything like that.  And, closer to Burke, Bill Stenger is Mr. Jay Peak, but he is not in marketing material or have his name on the logo.  

My point with Ascutney was that the owners were not only visible, but were in every single article, had their pictures in brochures, and really put themselves out there.  The truth was that the burned a lot of bridges and were not well liked.  The mountain failed...in large part because of them.  It was about them and not the mountain.  People didn't like it.  

Same thing out here with Canyons.  Talisker has its name all over the place and people hate Talisker and what they do.  They associate Canyons with Talisker (when they don't have to do that).  

When I went up to the Kingdom twice this past summer I heard from lots of folks, from all different walks of life, that the management/ownership was burning a lot of bridges.  Seeing the "Q" only brings those feelings up for many.  Now I know that sometimes things have to be changed, that you have to "clean house", and that they are new to running a ski area and are learning.  But sometimes it is better to be more behind the curtains as opposed to out in front with everything.  And I know it is a business and they can do what they want, but Burke is a community and that means a lot to folks including me.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 24, 2013)

Let me take a look at why it's not up there and fetch the rate.  And thanks for your opinion on the logo.   Sorry not familiar with past t-shirt designs--did it have a western-looking mtn on it?




kingdom-tele said:


> great.  couldn't find any info on the website.  price?
> 
> the logo is pretentious. but, like ST said, the mountain is the mountain.  Now if they could actually sell a T shirt with a picture of Burke on it instead of some no name peak out west that would be great.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> Let me take a look at why it's not up there and fetch the rate. And thanks for your opinion on the logo. Sorry not familiar with past t-shirt designs--did it have a western-looking mtn on it?



You're the man, Steve.  

I think that folks just like simple...like this bear here:


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 24, 2013)

That wasn't really my question (was more asking about these western focused t shirts).  I get the consternation about the Q, but it is what it is alas.  I think what we comped for the bear is better looking but I also realize that aesthetics are subjective and one man's bear is another man's something else.

More importantly, Sunday NEK ticket is alive, well, and the rate frozen; still $25 this year.



thetrailboss said:


> You're the man, Steve.
> 
> I think that folks just like simple...like this bear here:


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 24, 2013)

Same last year; $25


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 24, 2013)

Nice.  Thanks Steve for the update.

The apparel in general has always depicted something other than the mountain.  KTA shirts do a great job of grabbing scenes from riding there.  Always kind of wondered who designed the burke shirts as they were either just outlines of the 2 peaks or some other mountain.  Be nice to see Q [] lay out a line of clothing that represented the beauty of the mountain.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 24, 2013)

How about this variation...


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> That wasn't really my question (was more asking about these western focused t shirts). I get the consternation about the Q, but it is what it is alas. I think what we comped for the bear is better looking but I also realize that aesthetics are subjective and one man's bear is another man's something else.
> 
> More importantly, Sunday NEK ticket is alive, well, and the rate frozen; still $25 this year.



I guess I see their point about the mountain being different...but I honestly think that the graphic designer just picked a mountain template and that was what it was.  It's western, I guess, in the sense that it looks like it has snowfields at the top.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 24, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> How about this variation...



man NEK, add a rainbow and a pot of gold and I think you got something with that emerald green

TB, don't know if your looking at the logo, I was not referencing the mountian in the logo. At least that one is a Monadonock. Some of the shop clothing was non descript, always seemed odd to me thats all


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> man NEK, add a rainbow and a pot of gold and I think you got something with that emerald green
> 
> TB, don't know if your looking at the logo, I was not referencing the mountian in the logo. At least that one is a Monadonock. Some of the shop clothing was non descript, always seemed odd to me thats all



So you're talking about the general clothing line that they had....with stock images and the words, "Burke Mountain", right?  

A few years back they ran "retro" logo wear.  I have a shirt or two with the older logo on it.  That was cool.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Oct 24, 2013)

Qorrect.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> Qorrect.



:lol:

I agree with you.  They could have been much more creative and made much more money there.  One retail manager there, in like 2007-2009 did a good job with logowear.


----------



## halfpintvt (Oct 26, 2013)

The bear looks evil; I'm expecting to see laser beams coming out of his eyes any minute. I hate the "Q"; does that stand for "queer" as in unusual. How common is it for an owner to add part of his name to the business in that way. Seems very strange, queer to me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2013)

When I think of "QBurke", the first thing that comes to mind is the old video game QBert.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 28, 2013)

Seems like they started the electric work today, including running lines up to where the new hotel will be. Does anyone know if this is just for the snow making or is this new enhancement meant to also serve the hotel and new facilities in the Mid Burke area?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Seems like they started the electric work today, including running lines up to where the new hotel will be. Does anyone know if this is just for the snow making or is this new enhancement meant to also serve the hotel and new facilities in the Mid Burke area?
> 
> View attachment 9415
> View attachment 9416
> ...



We were talking about this earlier this month:



thetrailboss said:


> The latest:
> 
> 
> *Burke MountainPower Lines Being Extended For Snowmaking, Hotel*
> LYNDONVILLE -- Q Burke Mountain Resort is working with the Lyndonville Electric Department to upgrade electric service to meet increased power needs for snow-making this ski season and the planned hotel, LED Manager Ken Mason told Lyndonville Village Trustees this week.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 28, 2013)

It is for both. There are two co-located lines going in. One for snowmaking and one for the hotel.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2013)

When will they open this season?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 29, 2013)

I think they might shoot for a Thanksgiving opening if the weather cooperates and if they can get the electricity in there by then.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think they might shoot for a Thanksgiving opening if the weather cooperates and if they can get the electricity in there by then.



Yeah, electricity would certainly help.  Kind of odd that they had all summer to do that and are only now doing it.  But that seems to be the way with ski area work.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, electricity would certainly help.  Kind of odd that they had all summer to do that and are only now doing it.  But that seems to be the way with ski area work.



there seemed to be some tree removal work on high meadows rd so they perhaps waited for defoliation. Also, no reason to absorb the expense too quickly before cash flow starts coming in for the season...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2013)

Just wanted to leave this here... For the first time in 4 years, The Wet Slot has been trimmed .


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2013)

Oh boy.....hopefully said stash will remain off the map.

And are they making snow?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh boy.....hopefully said stash will remain off the map.
> 
> And are they making snow?


IMHO it's too narrow to put it on the map. And no snow making yet. I think they are finishing up the new electrical stuff first.


----------



## dlague (Nov 4, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Just wanted to leave this here... For the first time in 4 years, The Wet Slot has been trimmed .



As in?






No one thought otherwise!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2013)

In Jeans!  It is actually quite a bit steeper than it looks in that video from TheTrailBoss. Here is the full run (starting at 0:42 seconds)


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## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2013)

Wow...there's a blast from the past...someone found one of my old videos.  

And this might be of interest to folks:


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2013)

Latest news...
Opening date set for December 14[SUP]th[/SUP].
Renaming of the Tamarack Grill renamed to the Tamarack Pub & Grill and is being revamped to be more sports pub like.


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

We like the Tamarack.  Glad they added the "Pub &" into the name! :beer:   We have always enjoyed thier food and it is priced like a normal restuarant.  It has always felt like a sports pub to us since we will watch parts of the Pats games there on NEK Sunday while grabbing a bite before we hit the road.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2013)

And part one of the "Building a New Kingdom" has been aired on WCAX:   
http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=9494681&autostart=true


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## fbrissette (Nov 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Renaming of the Tamarack Grill renamed to the Tamarack Pub & Grill



At least it's not the Q-Tamarack Pub & Grill...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2013)

Although "Qmarack" does have a ring to it :lol:


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## Smellytele (Nov 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Although "Qmarack" does have a ring to it :lol:



+1


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> At least it's not the Q-Tamarack Pub & Grill...



Shhhhhh.....that's next.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Latest news...
> Opening date set for December 14[SUP]th[/SUP].
> Renaming of the Tamarack Grill renamed to the Tamarack Pub & Grill and is being revamped to be more sports pub like.



Boooo to late opening.  Yeah to sports pub.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

Here's that video:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23885482/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9494681


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's that video:
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/23885482/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9494681


I couldn't get it to embed (see above) either.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I couldn't get it to embed (see above) either.



I posted it because the video you posted was for a blood drive (?)


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> And part one of the "Building a New Kingdom" has been aired on WCAX:
> [video]http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9  494681[/video]



Having been raised in that area, I am very interested in the final results!  We visit that region often and also visit Magog which they talked about too!  However, that being said, many of my friends that still live up there are not very excited about it since the better paying jobs require skills/education that many do not have up there.  As a result, outsiders will move in and take the best jobs.  I still think it will help but that is just me!

Heck they blocked Walmart for years and that one is turning into a battle as to whether or no it should be located downtown Newport or on the Newport Derby area.  The environmentalist have not jumped in yet on either front.


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Shhhhhh.....that's next.



and skis will have Q-tips!


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2013)

What the hell? I fixed my link. I originally copied directly out of the "link" option under the Embed button.  http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=9494681&autostart=true


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

dlague said:


> Having been raised in that area, I am very interested in the final results! We visit that region often and also visit Magog which they talked about too! However, that being said, many of my friends that still live up there are not very excited about it since the better paying jobs require skills/education that many do not have up there. As a result, outsiders will move in and take the best jobs. I still think it will help but that is just me!
> 
> Heck they blocked Walmart for years and that one is turning into a battle as to whether or no it should be located downtown Newport or on the Newport Derby area. The environmentalist have not jumped in yet on either front.



Where are you from in the NEK?  I'm from Lyndonville.


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Where are you from in the NEK?  I'm from Lyndonville.



Derby Line!  Graduated from LSC before moving on to bigger and better things!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

dlague said:


> Derby Line! Graduated from LSC before moving on to bigger and better things!



Nice!  Someone from North Country!


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice!  Someone from North Country!



Beautiful up there!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

dlague said:


> and skis will have Q-tips!



That's a good one!


----------



## Mullen (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm a former LSC student as well.  Was there from 1998-2000......never made it to graduation.  Not from LSC anyway....went riding too much and the grades suffered.  Booked a week there in February for me my wife, brother and his wife.  It'll be my first time back in the area since then. I have a lot of great memories of Burke and NEK in general.  Vaguely remember where the goods are at....I would welcome a refresher via pm if anyone is interested in dropping some knowledge.  Looking forward to seeing some of the changes that have taken place.


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2013)

Mullen said:


> I'm a former LSC student as well.  Was there from 1998-2000......never made it to graduation.  Not from LSC anyway....went riding too much and the grades suffered.  Booked a week there in February for me my wife, brother and his wife.  It'll be my first time back in the area since then. I have a lot of great memories of Burke and NEK in general.  Vaguely remember where the goods are at....I would welcome a refresher via pm if anyone is interested in dropping some knowledge.  Looking forward to seeing some of the changes that have taken place.



Right off Wilderness and Dixieland or off The Jungle!  Lots of places to explore to skiers right!  I know some locals have names for the "secret" trails but once someone has been there - it is not so secret any more - others will follow the tracks!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

Shhhh....do not disclose the location of the Qlades or the Qwoods.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2013)

The second installment:  

http://www.wcax.com/story/23895536/bu

Addressing who is investing in Stenger's projects.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2013)

Part 2 had some shots of the new Stateside Hotel/Lodge. That hike up to the Taxi looks like it will be a bit steep due to the large drainage ditch they put in. Although I suppose they could fill it with snow to grade it better.

Part three tonight. Looking at the 10,000 jobs the projects are supposed to create. This one should be interesting.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 8, 2013)

Part 3: http://www.wcax.com/story/23909631/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9504244


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Part 3: http://www.wcax.com/story/23909631/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9504244




At 4:14 you see Bill sitting at the Sherburne Lodge at Burke, and he is wearing a "Burke" nametag.

Tonight is the one that most of us will want to see: the installment on Burke specifically and an introduction to the Q team and their Q Plans.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 8, 2013)

Q the Music!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2013)

And now the installment on Burke....drum roll.....here is the text version:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23920473/building-a-new-kingdom-part-4

They were very direct on a lot of concerns that we've heard here.  Here are some exchanges that might be of interest:

First, an accurate description of the past:



> "For the last five owners there's been a lot of good intention but not a hell of a lot of follow through," Stenger said. He says there will be follow through now because they have access to cash. The money will come from the federal investor EB-5 program. In exchange for half-a-million-dollars, foreign investors and their families are on the fast track to permanent residency. But their investment must create at least 10 jobs.



Some hard numbers:



> Currently Burke sees 70,000 skier and rider visits a year. After the developments Quiros hopes that number more than doubles -- to 150,000.



And the community's concerns about Ary's fit and "Mountain-Community" relations:



> People in the industry and the community didn't want to go on camera, but repeatedly expressed concerns that while they welcome improvements, they're afraid Quiros doesn't value the community's history.
> 
> Reporter Gina Bullard: How are you going to prove yourself? Are you worried about coming in and changing the entire face of Burke Mountain?
> 
> Ary Quiros: No, absolutely not. I have everything to back up all my changes -- why I'm doing it  -- and I have them understand it.



Why the name:



> Quiros is already leaving his mark on the ski resort. There's a new logo featuring the letter 'Q' -- for Quiros.
> 
> Reporter Gina Bullard: Why did you want to have that?
> 
> Ary Quiros: It's a new company. We take pride and ownership and we want to show the world what we're doing is good for the mountain.



More on some controversial decisions:



> He admits there's controversy -- he's had to lay off six managers. "I had to reduce the amount of staff in the beginning due to high fixed costs," he said. Quiros says his military background has shaped his management style. In 2002 he enlisted in the U.S. Army and was deployed several times to Iraq and Afghanistan. He's currently a Captain in the Vermont National Guard. "I enjoy it very much and I apply the same principals here in managing of people," Quiros said.
> 
> He's never worked in the hospitality sector but has interned at hotels in Spain. "We're very conservative and I dedicate my time to developing my staff, and my staff is the key here to moving forward," he said.



Why the "Big Guy" was chosen:



> Reporter Gina Bullard:  Why was Ary chosen to run this?
> 
> Bill Stenger: He's part of the family -- passionate about skiing, great drive and wants to see this be successful.



And what Ary really wants to do:



> Quiros says his sole focus right now is making Burke profitable. "There's fundamentals in business and fundamentals in things we do and if I can't sustain this business, then I can't help the community in the future. So I have to stop giving time and resources to them so I can allocate all the time to this mountain, fix it up, bring it up to code, take care of my employees, make it sustainable -- then move forward," Quiros said.



Some tough medicine there.  I think anyone will agree that making the mountain profitable and sustainable is good and needed.  But that does not mean burning bridges or just turning your back to those at the base of the mountain.  



> Reporter Gina Bullard: Are you worried there's a lack of trust for Ary?
> 
> Bill Stenger: Any time you come into a new situation there's, 'Show me. Show me you're going to do what you say.'
> 
> ...



Hmmm.....

Thoughts?


----------



## zeke (Nov 9, 2013)

Reporter Gina Bullard: How are you going to prove yourself? Are you worried about coming in and changing the entire face of Burke Mountain? 

Ary Quiros: No, absolutely not. I have everything to back up all my changes -- why I'm doing it -- and I have them understand it.


being made president and CEO in an industry you have no experience in, you'd think someone would want to prove themselves.

if there is "everything to back up" these changes, why not share this magic spreadsheet or research that says everything he's doing is right? i'm sure people would love to see anything that justifies an aquatic and tennis center in a small ski town in northern VT. seems like a sad combination of arrogance and naiveté is all that's behind these decisions and the only real "back up" is dad's money.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Nov 9, 2013)

he teles! clearly his head is screwed on a little crooked

My favorite quote, "This will be an outdoor family area."
What was it before?

10,000 jobs, half of which for the construction, what happens when they stop building? Would love to have seen the breakdown for upper wage jobs that are created and how they plan to fill those when the local work force has been tapped out. 25,000 people in Newport on a weekend? 

Quite the vision, for sure.  I hope it truly does uplift the region, and its not just wealthy people trading money amongst themselves. Helps me realize my perception,  seems like 100+ million would get you more, that is a lot of money I think.

I am looking forward to the aquatic center. Any recent design pictures.  I miss lap swimming.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 9, 2013)

Edit: Please note this was a post by my 4 year old playing with smiley faces.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 9, 2013)

So, the "Q" in the logo and trade name is because of the Quiros family is partners with Stenger and a son is the new CEO of the ski area?

That's really pretty arrogant and deuchey.

Maybe Win Smith should re-brand Sugarbush as W-Sugarbush


----------



## kingdom-tele (Nov 9, 2013)

but not a bad reason for doing it, guy seems excited about the future.  Just hope it isn't focused on $ signs. Pretty easy to walk away from, over, and around people when your only interested in bottom lines

70k to 150k/year

if 70k wasn't enough to support it in its current state, is 150K enough to support the bills their development is going to create?

the employees standing around the hotel will outnumber the mid week skiers.  that doesn't seem sustainable for long.

Man, I really hope this works like they are talking it up.


----------



## crank (Nov 9, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's really pretty arrogant and deuchey.



Worse than that is it is both confusing and pointless.


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 9, 2013)

Has "fromtheNEK" or anyone else laid out the hotel(s)/base lodge to see how it fits in that field below the Mid-Burke Express?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 10, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> Has "fromtheNEK" or anyone else laid out the hotel(s)/base lodge to see how it fits in that field below the Mid-Burke Express?


----------



## dlague (Nov 10, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


>



That was pretty cool


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 10, 2013)

Thanks T - that is indeed very cool. I am surprised there is as much open space as you show between the lower road (Woods Trail or something similar) and the west side of the hotel(s)


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2013)

A good video from the mountain:


----------



## oldtimer (Nov 24, 2013)

*The Q Burke*

Mr Q plans to make his mark on Burke:

1) unless he changes plans, most every area in the East will be open before Burke, including Nashoba Valley and the NJ areas.  Talk in the admin building is that the 14th is a pretty hard date.

2) Staff being required to refer to the area as "Q-Burke".  prompts such as "Thank you for skiing Q-Burke" have been given to incoming and returning emps

3) expenses are being monitored closely

deja vue all over again for those of us who have seen so many owners with grand plans ................ as always at Burke, cherish every good day.


----------



## canobie#1 (Nov 24, 2013)

I am in love with Burke's New logo.  I think its my new favorite.  (Stupid Killington had to replace their awesome logo with a crappy one:uzi


----------



## xlr8r (Nov 24, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Mr Q plans to make his mark on Burke:
> 
> 1) unless he changes plans, most every area in the East will be open before Burke, including Nashoba Valley and the NJ areas.  Talk in the admin building is that the 14th is a pretty hard date.
> 
> ...



Wait really, the official name now is Q-Burke.  I thought it was just a logo change.  I can see conversations going on like...

talking with a friend or family

"Where did you go skiing today?"
"I went to Q-Burke"
"What it is Q-Burke?  I have never heard of it"
"Its Burke, only there is now a Q in the name"
"That sounds stupid"

or talking with an employee

"Welcome to Q-Burke"
"What is with the Q?  I thought the place was just called Burke"
"The owners name starts with the letter Q, he wanted to leave his mark on the mountain, so he altered the name"
"That sounds arrogant and stupid"


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> Wait really, the official name now is Q-Burke.  I thought it was just a logo change.  I can see conversations going on like...
> 
> talking with a friend or family
> 
> ...



I think you're preaching to the choir.


----------



## oldtimer (Nov 24, 2013)

*too true*

out of the mouths of 2 who attended staff meetings.     perhaps the fad will fade quickly.






xlr8r said:


> Wait really, the official name now is Q-Burke.  I thought it was just a logo change.  I can see conversations going on like...
> 
> talking with a friend or family
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Mr Q plans to make his mark on Burke:
> 
> 1) unless he changes plans, most every area in the East will be open before Burke, including Nashoba Valley and the NJ areas.  Talk in the admin building is that the 14th is a pretty hard date.
> 
> ...



Not good.  Not good at all.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Nov 25, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Not good.  Not good at all.



unless your only looking at from a bottom line POV.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 25, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> 3) expenses are being monitored closely


Not sure what the problem is with this one. Just because Burke is now owned and operated by a family with pretty deep pockets doesn't mean they want to just go hog wild with spending. Keeping somewhat tight purse strings isn't really a bad idea IMHO. Look what happened when Ginn came in. They did the complete opposite and started spending all over the place. Remember the sets of greeters on each level of the stairs at the base lodge (one set at the bottom, one set at the ticket window level, and another at the top)? That company didn't last long.
I think Ari has been charged with making the mountain profitable and keeping close tabs on  spending while they get off the ground is necessary to successfully do that.
The “Q” thing is silly, but at the same time memorable. People will member hearing the “Q” where plain old “Burke” gets forgotten quickly. The word “burke” just isn’t catchy. Other resort names like Sugarbush, MRG, Smuggler’s Notch, and Mt Snow are either catchy or make you think about Vermont and mountains. The names Stowe and Stratton have that inner circle cache and deep popular history among the high rollers that force people to have to know them so that they can share Vermont stories at parties (trust me, I’ve been to a party like that uke:  ). Jay Peak used to be rather forgettable too, but the marketing department (with Steve in charge) has somehow  turned it into something memorable . As much as I dislike the “Q”, it may be a savvy marketing move by Burke (ahem…excuse me…Q-Burke).


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## thetrailboss (Nov 25, 2013)

Specifically, I think that the Q thing is a mistake.  I also think that the late opening is not good either, especially since they (were) touting all the improvements to snowmaking last year (Marge, etc).


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 25, 2013)

it is almost like they are running it like a place that only gets 70K skier visits a year


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 25, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I also think that the late opening is not good either, especially since they (were) touting all the improvements to snowmaking last year (Marge, etc).



Why is it a mistake. Burke has historically waited until Mid-December to open. Why waste that money on the 75% chance it will all just run off into the Passumpsic River? On the other hand, it may entice more Burke pass buyers to buy the Burke/Jay combo pass in the future if they want the longer season. Once they commit to it, all of that new snowmaking power can get things covered more quickly rather than it taking until mid-January to make snow on all of the trails. FWIW, they are blowing snow on Warren's trying to get it open for BMA. 


kingdom-tele said:


> it is almost like they are running it like a place that only gets 70K skier visits a year


I know, I don’t get it either.


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## rueler (Nov 25, 2013)

My wife and I have had Burke passes for the last few seasons. We were a bit disappointed that they weren't opening earlier than the 14th this year. 

I've been visiting here to ski since I was a kid. I know that the mountain typically doesn't open until mid December, but we were suckered in by the rhetoric of the new ownership. Big upgrades to snowmaking, targeting higher skier visits and their big time push to try to open for THANKSGIVING last year, only to nearly miss it and be open for the first weekend of December.

We figured that if they're trying to establish a new "brand" of Q Burke with 150,000 skier visits that they better have the bull wheels spinning MORE days. More days = more visits. Just my vent.

I agree with NEK, it's alright to monitor expenses closely. I just wish that instead of dumping "?" money into rebranding Burke with the new logo, etc. and gutting Tamarack for enhancements, that they'd focus on the hill and the skiing product. That's why my wife and I schlep up there from the Hartford area every weekend…for the skiing and the peace and quiet on the slopes.


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## zeke (Nov 25, 2013)

rueler said:


> I just wish that instead of dumping "?" money into rebranding Burke with the new logo, etc. and gutting Tamarack for enhancements, that they'd focus on the hill and the skiing product. That's why my wife and I schlep up there from the Hartford area every weekend…for the skiing and the peace and quiet on the slopes.



finely someone said it. with wildflower and willy's both shutting down and the tamarack seemingly becoming a sports bar, sadly juniper's is the only real restaurant left in a small town that used to have several nice options. everything i read makes it sadder.

seems the on-mountain money could've been spent much more wisely and much more for the guests needs vs something that no one seemed to be asking for.


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## Domeskier (Nov 25, 2013)

Q*bert mountain?  Are they planning to replace the lifts with magic flying disks?


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 25, 2013)

seems like they are cutting their losses until the infrastructure goes in.  they notion it will be a 150K skier visit mountain is as grande a view that Newport will have 25K every weekend strolling the streets throwing money around.

if you want peace and quiet on the slopes every weekend you guys should think about looking somewhere else IMO, the clock is ticking down.

@zeke- what money? 
While I agree the tamarack renovations were needless, I suppose they see more people showing up to watch sports than drop 100+ on a dinner for 2. They don't have all the EB5 money yet to my knowledge, and its for new infrastructure I thought.

its whats best right?


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## rueler (Nov 25, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> seems like they are cutting their losses until the infrastructure goes in.  they notion it will be a 150K skier visit mountain is as grande a view that Newport will have 25K every weekend strolling the streets throwing money around.
> 
> if you want peace and quiet on the slopes every weekend you guys should think about looking somewhere else IMO, the clock is ticking down.



The clock is ticking. We realize that. But, the other spots we would consider will ALWAYS be busier than Burke.

I get cutting their losses, but if they cut expenses to the point where their product is diminished, they're going to LOSE people in the process. I know that it's a fine line as far as a budget goes…but, if it's less than the year before, people scratch their heads…it's just natural.


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## Boardguy (Nov 25, 2013)

How much would it cost to post some new stuff on the the website? Man there is nothing going on with it. No pics, no new entries, no nothing. It is getting to be ski season right? It has been 35 degrees for days though according to the weather. Nothing listed in the events section from Dec. 14 until Jan. 31 - mountain closed in Jan. maybe. I assume the snowmobile races are not happening this year, when they ran that it was always a good excuse for us to go up. Oh well time will tell I guess.


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## Smellytele (Nov 25, 2013)

This company does not believe in on hill improvements. It is all about getting people to be trapped in skiing there. How do they do that? Create rooms. The people on this website for the most part do not care about the surrounding infrastructure - we care about the skiing. Some of us would rather sleep in their cars than pay 200 a night to stay in a hotel room that you only sleep in anyway. Give us a good beer (or 4) and a cheap room with a private bath and we are good. Some of us would rather drive 2 hours each way then stay in a hotel room but for the average skier would not.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 25, 2013)

Boardguy said:


> How much would it cost to post some new stuff on the the website? Man there is nothing going on with it. No pics, no new entries, no nothing. It is getting to be ski season right? It has been 35 degrees for days though according to the weather. Nothing listed in the events section from Dec. 14 until Jan. 31 - mountain closed in Jan. maybe. I assume the snowmobile races are not happening this year, when they ran that it was always a good excuse for us to go up. Oh well time will tell I guess.



That's what happens when you lay off your mountain manager and your marketing department (one or two people).  

And agree that the on-mountain product is what we're interested in.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 26, 2013)

Sounds like Elk & Burke have the same marketing team.


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## Zand (Nov 26, 2013)

Sounds like I picked a good year to get out of Lyndonville and ski primarily at Killington. I'll be up once to use my day on the Fox44 pass, but otherwise all my trips to the NEK will be to Jay. After their performance last year, I won't even miss Burke too much.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 26, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That's what happens when you lay off your mountain manager and your marketing department (one or two people).
> 
> And agree that the on-mountain product is what we're interested in.



I thought these were the types of things they needed to do to remain afloat, with an industry leading dept at Jay it was a no brainer, right? they don't need a website now, they have facebook.  I am a little shocked everyone seems so down,  should only get better when they realize they are running the HSQ for the same 10 local people mon-thurs this winter. looking forward to more poma time when they start cutting back the lift run times to save money.

the on mountain product is dependent on the off mountain success isn't it? I was under the impression it was the best model for sustainability in the industry here in the NEK. Now it's not?  

Rueler, they don't care if they lose you, they are looking to fill the doors with people who don't care about skiing anyway, skiing just happens to be there, look at J, if it was about skiing I would think some of their investment would go back into the mountain, they spent money to keep the Bonnie! Thats a place that brings in 400K+ in skier visits.

I would say Q is realistic, 70K skiers/year, be happy you get to warm your toes near the flat screens watching the Pats. Burke was about no frills, now it is actually no frills until they expand and everyone is jumping ship. Perfectly natural?


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## AdironRider (Nov 26, 2013)

I still don't get why everyone is so defensive of the guys they laid off. Burke has failed how many times over (in the eyes of ownership)? At some point you need to cut the leash and start anew. They clearly weren't hacking it.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 27, 2013)

I've been listening, so to speak, to the last round of comments and would like to respond to some of that. Burke has traditionally opened "around" the middle of December, and, in the past several years, Mother Nature has made that difficult to the point that one season we barely made a Christmas opening. In my view, there is no legitimate reason to open Burke any earlier just based on the weather, and on the fact that passholders are the only early season customers there, by and large. As to the management changes, a closer look shows that the head Q simply eliminated an entire layer of management in favor of a direct link between himself and the actual department heads. That plan deserves an opportunity to succeed or fail. As to overall staff reductions, I personally believe that time and reality will eventually put that back into perspective as well. Snowmaking began in earnest on Lower Warren's Way on Sunday, and based on the forecast at the time was scheduled to run through Wednesday night and resume Friday morning with a Dec 3 goal for use of that trail by Burke Mountain Academy. Hopefully, the past 24 hours won't screw up that plan totally. As a longtime Burkie and Burke watcher, it would be easy to go negative if I focused on a few, relatively minor, issues (and yes, the new bear sucks!) but I've got my fingers crossed that Burke's "character and personality" will rise above that - training new owners is a tough task!


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## zeke (Nov 27, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> training new owners is a tough task!



training made tougher by eliminating that entire "layer" of management who had been there and understood (and in some cases maybe helped shape) Burke's "character and personality". tough to cross your fingers and hope when everyone at that level who didn't get fired seems to have quit, leaving just the younger, less experienced staff and a CEO who has never had a job in the industry. a CEO who, instead of keeping any managers who understood that history around to learn from for financial reasons, decided to spend money on seemingly pointless upgrades in the tamarack, a remodeled first level sherburne lodge and a shiny new logo with his initials on it–and, i'm assuming all new signage with that shiny new logo and new tamarack name as well.

may seem like that's "going negative" to some. to me, those are the facts as I understand them. and if the facts presented feel negative, well, again–makes it tough to just cross your fingers and hope.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm not sure I can agree with that - all of the current "managers" have 15 + years of Burke experience. And I guess your comments beg the question: What would you do, or have done, to take Burke to survival level, and beyond?


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 27, 2013)

Burke has had an identity crisis with the past "unsuccessful" owners.  The mountain as a ski hill is lucky to draw 100K and averages much lower.  It either needed to be run accordingly, cutting costs trying to compete with "resorts" or, like it or not, get a totally new identity, one unrelated to skiing.  It will be something to see them double the skier visits and still maintain their "character and personality". Its a mountain that caters to no one, not enough snow, not enough "expert" terrain, nothing to brag about in the middle of a dark empty region of VT, its just good skiing with good people.  Its apparent the market needs something else, well, we're getting a lot of something else, people cried it was failing and needed this to survive and now cry its not the same. Hows that saying about cake and eating it too go?

Sit back and enjoy the ride.  Its gonna be a good one to watch.


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## zeke (Nov 27, 2013)

like i said–the facts as i understand them. i was told that basically the entire administration building had been emptied out. so i could be wrong about the managers who didn't work in that building–ski patrol, lifties, bar managers, etc. but do you really think they're gonna speak up about bad decisions and maintaining the culture after their bosses–some of whom had been on mountain–were dumped? would be surprising to me, but who knows?


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## the original trailboss (Nov 28, 2013)

Not to belabor the point but the new managers are capable of expressing their opinions..... On another note, the Caledonian Record posted a story yesterday concerning season preparations at Q Burke (yep, it was in the headline!). All references to the ski area were Q Burke or Q Burke Mountain - I sure hope they get over that..............


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## dlague (Nov 28, 2013)

Well I did not like the changes at Jay Peak at first and got use to it.  I do not like the "Q" but I am sure after a season or two it will become common place.  I grew up on Jay and Burke so as a pseudo local it is weird!  Maybe they want people to recognize there has been a change and this makes it clear!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> Not to belabor the point but the new managers are capable of expressing their opinions..... On another note, the Caledonian Record posted a story yesterday concerning season preparations at Q Burke (yep, it was in the headline!). All references to the ski area were Q Burke or Q Burke Mountain - I sure hope they get over that..............



....the sooner the better

I'm not sure I'm aware of a ski resort whether relatively new or historic that has incorporated an owner's name into its title.  Maybe it exists somewhere, but I just find it so completely arrogant. Why?  Because the identity of a ski mountain is long lasting beyond any current ownership.  Burke was there before the "Q" family and will exist long after the "Q" family is gone.  

Think of what the reaction would be if an older, more historic and better known ski area than Burke did the same thing.  What if John Kircher decided to change the name of Sugarloaf to "K" Sugarloaf when Boyne resorts bought the mountain?  What if the Crown family decided to change the name of Aspen to "C" Aspen when they bought the area in 1993?  The reaction from the long time visitors to those areas would be extremely unfavorable.  I have to imagine that this is also the case up in the NEK.  

To me the decision to change the name really shows the Quoros family's lack of experience and understanding of the ski industry and its culture.


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## crank (Nov 28, 2013)

It is never about the owners but about the product.


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 28, 2013)

The Q in the name seems ridiculous.  I fear the management decisions will not be good.


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## Cannonball (Nov 28, 2013)

Is Q-Burke in the AFC East or AFC North?  I didn't even know they were in the NFL until I saw the new logo.


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## Cannonball (Nov 28, 2013)

the original trailboss said:


> In my view, there is no legitimate reason to open Burke any earlier just based on the weather, and on the fact that passholders are the only early season customers there, by and large.



Whether this is true or not, it's probably not the best thing to say out loud if you have any interest at all in keeping pass holders as customers. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

Bump. Real dick move here. Sorry Andrew, but hope you can walk this one back before it really sinks everything. 

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/126753-Some-news-from-the-Kingdom


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

I'll cross post this here too...A very sad day indeed. 
 I heard about this on the radio this morning but I hadn't read the article yet. I got a sick feeling in my stomach hearing it but I can't say I'm completely surprised. 

I'm starting to think the Quiros believe they can turn Burke into a destination resort without help and support of the local communities. Once they get their hotel/lodges and Olympic Pool and fancy Tennis facility built, they will no longer need to put up with the dirt bag MTB'rs that have turned the town around in the last 10 years. They will have people travelling here from all over the world to use their facilities.

 This entire situation is a giant middle finger to the locals. I can't see anyone really wanting to go work there at this rate.

 I really hope Lyndon Outing Club gets some decent snow this year.


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## snoseek (Dec 19, 2013)

I damn near spat my coffee up when I read this. KT is so unique at what they do, many would argue the best...tying together a local community for the sake of recreation and ultimately business. The difference on any random summer day in town from 15 years ago and now is staggering. The MTB community has made that town IMO. cutting ties over a few bucks seems so foolish. also of note: A lot of people are riding really expensive bikes...sometimes 5k or more...this seems like a bad move to alienate those people. If ya got 5k to drop on a bike you MIGHT have some disposable income. It's snowing, I should go skiing now


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

Without KT, who will stay in the new hotel?  Sure, maybe some will come once, but when they hear about this issue, it will be their last stay.  Tripping over a quarter to pick up a penny.


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## zeke (Dec 19, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Without KT, who will stay in the new hotel?



the massive Vermont diving and tennis community


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

zeke said:


> the massive Vermont diving and tennis community



Ah yes, forgot about that.  Thanks!  :lol:


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## Zand (Dec 19, 2013)

One step closer to NELSAP every day. Why do I get the feeling Jay bought it just to run it dry and get rid of any competition to Jay?


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## Tin (Dec 19, 2013)

^ It is a good conspiracy theory.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

What the… Weird, I wonder how a picture I took several years ago of a friend riding down East Bowl is the one featured in Jim McMurchy’s Facebook post/link to the VTDigger article on Burke’s page?

I’m actually legitimately curious.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

Zand said:


> One step closer to NELSAP every day. Why do I get the feeling Jay bought it just to run it dry and get rid of any competition to Jay?


But IMHO it really wasn't that much of a competitor to Jay. And in reality Jay didn't buy it, the Quiros' did with the very visible support of Bill Stenger. I really wonder what Bill thinks about this (not that he has any actual say in the matter).


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> But IMHO it really wasn't that much of a competitor to Jay. And in reality Jay didn't buy it, the Quiros' did with the very visible support of Bill Stenger. I really wonder what Bill thinks about this (not that he has any actual say in the matter).



I think that they will keep their distance.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'll cross post this here too...A very sad day indeed.
> I heard about this on the radio this morning but I hadn't read the article yet. I got a sick feeling in my stomach hearing it but I can't say I'm completely surprised.
> 
> *I'm starting to think the Quiros believe they can turn Burke into a destination resort without help and support of the local communities*. Once they get their hotel/lodges and Olympic Pool and fancy Tennis facility built, they will no longer need to put up with the dirt bag MTB'rs that have turned the town around in the last 10 years. They will have people travelling here from all over the world to use their facilities.
> ...



starting NEK?

cut jobs, cut hours, raise prices, raze the Tamarack, raise'n em jay hotels, the list goes on and on. Wonder how long the campground stays open? wouldn't want the dirty MtBikers mixing with the money. It has been pretty clear they are not putting any stock into the locals for anything so why cater to them.

sad to see. they could take it so many directions and this is what they are choosing. NELSAP it, let the community run it.


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## Zand (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> But IMHO it really wasn't that much of a competitor to Jay. And in reality Jay didn't buy it, the Quiros' did with the very visible support of Bill Stenger. I really wonder what Bill thinks about this (not that he has any actual say in the matter).



If you have the time, search Geauga Lake amusement park in Ohio and read about its demise 2 years after Cedar Fair (the owner of Cedar Point... which is 90 mins away and is the largest amusement park in the country) bought it. It's probably just pure coincidence that this Burke saga seems to have the same writing on the wall, but I couldn't help but note the similarities.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

Shameless cross-post:

You beat me to it. Call it cutting off your nose to spite your face; burning bridges; showing your true colors; showing the community what you really think of it. 

I got an Email this morning with this in it and I was so :angry: but not completely surprised. A few months ago an unnamed source told me that Q2 was fighting with KT and, as the article said, refused to pay up the $20,000 he owed to KT under the written contract. I thought about saying something here about it, but had faith that the voices of reason would tell Q2 to stand down and turn off the afterburners. Apparently they did and Q2 forked over that money, but as the article says, now is taking his ball and going home. 

When we all learned that "Jay Peak" was buying Burke, I was so happy. Bill Stenger is a leader in the industry and a good guy. He came in and helped Burke in 2000 when Burke 2000 was trying to open it. He gets it. He has a good PR team and they run a good business. Slowly, however, I learned that Bill Stenger is not a part of this and it's his business partner Mr. Quiros, Sr. Junior needs a job, so Daddy sends him to Burke. It becomes QBurke because, as Q2 said in the WCAX interview I posted, "he needs to prove himself." Prove himself he did; he can move onto other things. 


The article shows his true colors. He implies that the previous manager had some conflict of interest with KT, a non-profit community group that had a symbiotic relationship with Burke. Not only that, but the founders were, and still are, Burke employees. He seems to think that he will make it next summer without KT. Hate to tell him, but folks come for KT, not the mountain. QBurke will fail next summer...especially if he thinks that folks will pay more to ride the lower mountain. Also a complete dick move to cut off the very folks who (voluntarily) built the "goose that lays the golden egg" for the mountain in the summer. Most of the trails on the mountain were built by KT volunteers. 

And, to be sure that we go down flaming, we make the announcement less than a week before the Christmas Vacation and at the very start of ski season. There are lots of locals who volunteer for KT and ski at Burke. I guess this season locals know how much Mr. Quiros values their business and they will go elsewhere. So much for increasing skier visits. And a lot of out-of-town folks who visit Burke are KT loyals who will hear this news and ski elsewhere. There is a lot of choice for folks in Vermont besides Burke--Cannon is a mere 45 minutes away and they have done a great job listening to their guests. 

We are really lucky to have the new QBurke marketing guy here in the forums. I hope that he hears this feedback and can convince Mr. Quiros that this is the worst mistake that they can make on so many levels. The PR show is going to be awesome, and at the beginning of the season nonetheless. I wish the marketing guy luck. He's been around the business a long time and knows that this is just plain idiotic. There's no way you can spin this one. 

Burke was, and is, my home. Mr. Quiros is making me miss it much less I guess. I will be sure not to give him anymore money in the future until he brains up. 

And my comments are mine, only mine, and not those of AZ or the management.

This classic footage pretty much sums of the situation: 



"If this isn't the biggest bag over the head, punch in the face I've ever got, GODDAMNIT!"



> "I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, fore-fleshing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, d!@kless, hopeless, heartless, fat-@ss, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey s@!t he is. Hallelujah. Holy s@!t. Where's the Tylenol?"


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> starting NEK?


I know, I guess I'm an optimist. I was really hoping things would head in a direction that was good for the community.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

I bet that this was not mentioned at the "focus group" event last spring.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I know, I guess I'm an optimist. I was really hoping things would head in a direction that was good for the community.



it still may, who knows, strange decisions for sure


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> But IMHO it really wasn't that much of a competitor to Jay. And in reality Jay didn't buy it, the Quiros' did with the very visible support of Bill Stenger. I really wonder what Bill thinks about this (not that he has any actual say in the matter).



Look at the Burke Mountain FB page and you will see, buried in user comments, is a call-out to JPR about this situation.  And, as I predicted, the response from JPR:



> Thanks Jim. This decision is not something we were involved with here at the Jay Peak. We empathize and hope there's still room to salvage things prior to the beginning of mtn bike season.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

seems strange they have nothing to do with it.  they own it. little Q is free wheeling down there?


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## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 19, 2013)

Jay should be concerned about the damage being done to any future development in the NEK by QBurke.  I hope they are pulling whatever strings they have to kill this thing quickly and quietly.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> seems strange they have nothing to do with it. they own it. little Q is free wheeling down there?



To be frank, it sounds like Q Sr. had some money to invest, likes this whole EB-5 thing, and figured, "what the hell?  I can do what Bill is doing on my own!"  I think that Bill's connection is the EB-5 thing and nothing more really.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

Thinking about this more.... I think the symbiotic relationship Burke and KT shared was profitable (or should have been) for both parties. The biggest problem that Burke had in this relationship is that the $20 they were making off a lift pass apparently wasn't enough to cover operating expenses (or make an "appropriate" profit). Burke's major problem right now is that it has to rely solely on lift ticket, food and beverage, and equipment rental income to make money. The vast majority condos around the resort have all been privately owned since the mountain was nearly liquidated in 2000. So Burke sees no money from the MTB'rs that are renting out condos. 
 Maybe writing out that $20K check at the end of the MTB season put Burke in the operational red? Who knows.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Jay should be concerned about the damage being done to any future development in the NEK by QBurke.





thetrailboss said:


> I think that Bill's connection is the EB-5 thing and nothing more really.


And that is going to be the major issue here. Bill has been trying to promote all of the projects NEK as a big happy regional plan to secure the EB-5 money. If one of the pieces in the plan really starts to stink, how long until it is cut off?


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## bigbog (Dec 19, 2013)

Some with deep pockets often acquire much larger egos before knowledge....


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

The picture I was talking about above is the one on the VTDigger home page where the recent article are listed. Still weird that they somehow got ahold of a picture I took in 2006  http://vtdigger.org/


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> To be frank, it sounds like Q Sr. had some money to invest, likes this whole EB-5 thing, and figured, "what the hell? I can do what Bill is doing on my own!" I think that Bill's connection is the EB-5 thing and nothing more really.



wow, really?  If that is the case Mr. Bill is quite the smooth operator, he talked up the purchase and has been talking up the development as if it was his gift to give. It isn't their money being invested I thought.  I would say I would be shocked if Mr. Stenger had no idea of this, but nothing really surprises me anymore when it comes to the renaissance.


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## fbrissette (Dec 19, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> And, to be sure that we go down flaming, we make the announcement less than a week before the Christmas Vacation and at the very start of ski season. There are lots of locals who volunteer for KT and ski at Burke. I guess this season locals know how much Mr. Quiros values their business and they will go elsewhere. So much for increasing skier visits.



This goes way beyond locals.  I'm from Montreal.  I mostly ski Jay peak but I've skied Burke and I hit the kingdom trails regularly in the summer and fall.   This pisses me off.  I'll make sure I stay off the QBurke trails al-year round.   Qburke should realize that they have solid competitions in lift-accessed Mountain biking.   What really makes this place so special is the Kingdom trail network, NOT Qburke.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

If they are listening, Q2 will be gone by the end of the ski season. But I doubt it. He sees this as another "challenge" that he "will not fail at" as he told WCAX. And again, who the hell burns bridges with a community organization and then smiles for the camera in the article?  Really?  http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/18/burke-resort-cuts-ties-mountain-biking-trails-network/


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## zeke (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> If one of the pieces in the plan really starts to stink, how long until it is cut off?


hasn't the airport already been put "on hold" (I think AG2 was involved there as well as he's a pilot, but could e wrong) and the German window factory killed? What projects are working aside from Jay?


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## Quietman (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The picture I was talking about above is the one on the VTDigger home page where the recent article are listed. Still weird that they somehow got ahold of a picture I took in 2006  http://vtdigger.org/



It's also on Esquire.com *HERE*


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

Quietman said:


> It's also on Esquire.com *HERE*



Better have them pay the royalties, FTN!  :lol:


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## dlague (Dec 19, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> This goes way beyond locals.  I'm from Montreal.  I mostly ski Jay peak but I've skied Burke and I hit the kingdom trails regularly in the summer and fall.   This pisses me off.  I'll make sure I stay off the QBurke trails al-year round.   Qburke should realize that they have solid competitions in lift-accessed Mountain biking.   What really makes this place so special is the Kingdom trail network, NOT Qburke.



At this stage, we will not be visiting Burke at all this year!  This type of stuff is a turn off!  The MTB competition is increasing with more resorts offering this type of adventure.  Kingdom Trails is well known already and is established in the MTB community.  In fact, the services in the area benefit because of that.  Taking away the down hill portions of KT MTB and all the work that they put into it does not seem right either.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

Esquire eh?  The only thing I can think is that I gave the set of pictures to Kingdom Trails a while back and forgot that I did so.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

dlague said:


> At this stage, we will not be visiting Burke at all this year!  This type of stuff is a turn off!  The MTB competition is increasing with more resorts offering this type of adventure.  Kingdom Trails is well known already and is established in the MTB community.  In fact, the services in the area benefit because of that.  Taking away the down hill portions of KT MTB and all the work that they put into it does not seem right either.


I'm having a hard time with this too. I'm thinking my skins are going to be worn out by the end of this year .


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

dlague said:


> At this stage, we will not be visiting Burke at all this year! This type of stuff is a turn off! The MTB competition is increasing with more resorts offering this type of adventure. Kingdom Trails is well known already and is established in the MTB community. In fact, the services in the area benefit because of that. Taking away the down hill portions of KT MTB and all the work that they put into it does not seem right either.




They don't care.

It isn't about skiing, it isn't about community, its about money, its about infrastructure that doesn't rely on skiing. Boycott all you want. I am pretty sure they could give a shit. Besides, people will still pay them to ride the lifts, the trails are there, they can just raise rates to cover the cost for trail work.

If it grinds people's gears, maybe put your money into KT winter trail system, fat bike, xc ski, etc. The area shouldn't have to suffer because captain communication is making business decisions. Whatever, the NEK lived on prior to this mess, and will sure as hell live well beyond this clusterf^&#

NEK- I dare you to wear your skins out.


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## Smellytele (Dec 19, 2013)

This year is the first year in the last 6 that I will not be going to Burke at least once.
As I noted in the Magic thread biggest losers this year so far - Magic, Burke, Cannon and Wildcat. 4 of my favorite places


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## xlr8r (Dec 19, 2013)

Add me to the list of people who will now "Quit" going to Q Burke.  I was going to go there next week along with Cannon, but their new attitude will prevent me from giving them any of my money.  I guess it will be Bretton Woods or Loon instead who receive some of my cash.


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## dlague (Dec 19, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> They don't care.
> 
> It isn't about skiing, it isn't about community, its about money, its about infrastructure that doesn't rely on skiing. Boycott all you want. I am pretty sure they could give a shit. Besides, people will still pay them to ride the lifts, the trails are there, they can just raise rates to cover the cost for trail work.
> 
> ...



Well maybe if the community suffers then the community will step up!  Currently the community is being stepped on!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

dlague said:


> Well maybe if the community suffers then the community will step up! Currently the community is being stepped on!




They seem to forget that the same community bailed out the mountain in 2000.


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## dlague (Dec 19, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> They seem to forget that the same community bailed out the mountain in 2000.



The people who might remember we're let go!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

dlague said:


> The people who might remember we're let go!



Seriously.  No joke.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

Food for thought here:  on FB Burke has 8,200 likes.  KT has 7,200 likes.  Just throwing that out there....


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## ScottySkis (Dec 19, 2013)

thumbdown:


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2013)

Trailboss - You need to clean out some room in your Inbox.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Trailboss - You need to clean out some room in your Inbox.




Just did.  Try it again.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 19, 2013)

Stepped on?  Pay to play.  

or don't

other than Ide and the crew that dropped their lives into making those trails, who is getting stepped on? You guys crack me up, pedal your ass up the hill. I like how everyone is jumping ship as if that somehow that gets the message the to Q, he just lets more people go when the bottom line is out of reach, way to stick it to the man.  Ski it, support KT, support the NEK, I don't get the imaginary lines being drawn.


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## Zand (Dec 20, 2013)

I'll only be stepping foot on Burke this year once to use my FOX44 pass. Otherwise, I'll gladly stay away as well. It bothers me to be going to Jay too, but at least the skiing will be worth it since they actually leave their glades intact instead of destroying them to "clean them out".


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

Zand said:


> but at least the skiing will be worth it since they actually leave their glades intact instead of destroying them to "clean them out".


Are you talking about Jungle?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2013)

I just took a browse over on Burke's facebook page.  I'm kind of surprised that they aren't getting blasted.  That's usually the first thing to happen when a business makes a controversial decision, their social media goes haywire.

Do you think Burke is deleting wall posts on the subject or people haven't figured out what's going on?

I've got a Fox44 pass I hope to use up there myself this season.  Love the mountain.  Not fond of this business decision though and I don't even MTB.  I just recognize how hugely important the Kingdom Trails are and this seems like a slap in the face to all those who worked so hard to get it going.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I just took a browse over on Burke's facebook page.  I'm kind of surprised that they aren't getting blasted.  That's usually the first thing to happen when a business makes a controversial decision, their social media goes haywire.
> 
> Do you think Burke is deleting wall posts on the subject or people haven't figured out what's going on?
> 
> I've got a Fox44 pass I hope to use up there myself this season.  Love the mountain.  Not fond of this business decision though and I don't even MTB.  I just recognize how hugely important the Kingdom Trails are and this seems like a slap in the face to all those who worked so hard to get it going.




They were there yesterday...hard to find them.  And folks have not really heard because VTDigger.org ran the article and not some mainstream traditional media outlet.  It will now trickle down...probably Cal Rec, WCAX, etc.  So over the next few days, maybe weeks, they will get additional ire from folks.  The PR gift that keeps on giving...and at the beginning of the season.  How awesome.  :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

And I was hoping that this was a bad dream.  Unfortunately not.  

I (somewhat) understood firing some management; I did not understand the "Q" thing; now I clearly understand that this is just a big "F-you" to the community.  I suggest that someone give Q2 this for Christmas as I saw it was on Amazon as a promo, although it is too late:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

EDIT:  the article just hit the Cal Rec.

Now WCAX:  http://www.wcax.com/story/24268765/burke-ends-partnership-with-kingdom-trails

It's the gift that keeps on giving!  :lol:  You reap what you sow!

And there are a lot more comments on their FB page.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> EDIT:  the article just hit the Cal Rec.
> 
> Now WCAX:  http://www.wcax.com/story/24268765/burke-ends-partnership-with-kingdom-trails
> 
> ...



Front page of the Caledonian Record this morning. Included is the original VTDigger article and another sub-article by a Cal-Rec reporter who interviewed a few business owners who I think displayed a lot of restraint in their comments. Probably because they know their business depends on *not* burning bridges.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

Some tunes to go along with the situation:


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

They probably got the picture from here: http://www.kingdomtrails.com/photo-gallery?album=1&gallery=8


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## Andrew (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> They were there yesterday...hard to find them.  And folks have not really heard because VTDigger.org ran the article and not some mainstream traditional media outlet.  It will now trickle down...probably Cal Rec, WCAX, etc.  So over the next few days, maybe weeks, they will get additional ire from folks.  The PR gift that keeps on giving...and at the beginning of the season.  How awesome.  :roll:



Specific posts you're referring to that were removed? In regards to FB; unless they're vulgar, obscene, or completely off topic rants, I try not to delete anything. Quick drop-in appearance, you'll hear more from me later.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2013)

Yeah, I missed seeing the posts until I went back for a second look.  For the most part the criticism was in good taste and respectful.  I'm not envious of your position in situations like these Andrew, but I'm sure you know it's part of the gig.  Have to have tough skin to work in marketing in the ski business.  Us customers tend to bitch a lot.  :lol:


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> I like how everyone is jumping ship as if that somehow that gets the message the to Q, he just lets more people go when the bottom line is out of reach, way to stick it to the man. Ski it, support KT, support the NEK, I don't get the imaginary lines being drawn.




That is the real rub here. I have a lot of friends who work at Burke. If the bad management decisions continue to alienate customers, it is putting their livelihoods at risk. 
Do I continue to pay for services at Burke to help ensure the mountain remains operational and my friends employed?  I think I do, but talking up the mountain to guests is going to be far more difficult.
I have been a big supporter of Burke over the years. However, the current management seems to be doing exactly the opposite of what everyone in the focus group discussed late last winter (http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...oning-session-roundtable-discussion?highlight=).


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

NEK- talking up the mountain and the people who we truly interact with there don't change.  Q ain't coming down from his loft the drink PBR's with anyone.  I can see people's distaste, I too think the choices being made reflect what I feared the most, owners willing to sacrifice for the bottom line with what seems like myopia.  But everyone throwing in the towel on the place is ridiculous, it doesn't hurt Q and the people with the money already, it hurts the people we know, the ones who will still be there when and if these "business" men move on to something more lucrative.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, I missed seeing the posts until I went back for a second look. For the most part the criticism was in good taste and respectful. I'm not envious of your position in situations like these Andrew, but I'm sure you know it's part of the gig. Have to have tough skin to work in marketing in the ski business. Us customers tend to bitch a lot. :lol:



Right.  But I think this is legitimate criticism or "constructive feedback".  

And I have not heard or seen Masskier trying to spin this news.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> NEK- talking up the mountain and the people who we truly interact with there don't change. Q ain't coming down from his loft the drink PBR's with anyone. I can see people's distaste, I too think the choices being made reflect what I feared the most, owners willing to sacrifice for the bottom line with what seems like myopia. But everyone throwing in the towel on the place is ridiculous, it doesn't hurt Q and the people with the money already, it hurts the people we know, the ones who will still be there when and if these "business" men move on to something more lucrative.



KT you and I have disagreed on a lot, but I agree with you here.  It is a terrible situation that Ary has put a lot of locals in.  And it is a bad deal because you're right in that the "little people" will pay the price.  Vermonters, NEKers especially, are resourceful.  I hope that things turn around.  I really do.  I've said a lot on here and in other outlets about this over the past few days, but my comments are not meant to be mean or vicious but legitimate criticism for some really bad decisions.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

I realized somewhere along the way through my cynical outlook I was spending to much time thinking about all the stuff that seemed wrong about all this development. Meanwhile, I drew some odd lines, wouldn't pay for a pass, wouldn't go the waterpark, etc which is all evident in my previous posts. I began to find myself looking in from the outside, missing friends I had made over the years that were in those places. It finally dawned on me what these grand "deciders" choose to do doesn't change the people who live here and will continue to live here. It may mean the second home crew moves on, but they always get replaced by the next focus group. I think people just need to take a deep breath, your gonna have a great time skiing the hill, enjoying the last days of the bear den with all the familiar faces you have come to know, screw em, they may not give a shit, but cutting of your own nose doesn't teach them anything, supporting the community is different than supporting the owner, its just a perception game


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## deadheadskier (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> I realized somewhere along the way through my cynical outlook I was spending to much time thinking about all the stuff that seemed wrong about all this development. Meanwhile, I drew some odd lines, wouldn't pay for a pass, wouldn't go the waterpark, etc which is all evident in my previous posts. I began to find myself looking in from the outside, missing friends I had made over the years that were in those places. It finally dawned on me what these grand "deciders" choose to do doesn't change the people who live here and will continue to live here. It may mean the second home crew moves on, but they always get replaced by the next focus group. I think people just need to take a deep breath, your gonna have a great time skiing the hill, enjoying the last days of the bear den with all the familiar faces you have come to know, screw em, they may not give a shit, but cutting of your own nose doesn't teach them anything, supporting the community is different than supporting the owner, its just a perception game



Who are you and what have you done with kingdom-tele?  :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> I realized somewhere along the way through my cynical outlook I was spending to much time thinking about all the stuff that seemed wrong about all this development. Meanwhile, I drew some odd lines, wouldn't pay for a pass, wouldn't go the waterpark, etc which is all evident in my previous posts. I began to find myself looking in from the outside, missing friends I had made over the years that were in those places. It finally dawned on me what these grand "deciders" choose to do doesn't change the people who live here and will continue to live here. It may mean the second home crew moves on, but they always get replaced by the next focus group. I think people just need to take a deep breath, your gonna have a great time skiing the hill, enjoying the last days of the bear den with all the familiar faces you have come to know, screw em, they may not give a shit, but cutting of your own nose doesn't teach them anything, supporting the community is different than supporting the owner, its just a perception game



Jay is different than Burke in many ways.  For Burke, it can't survive without the community and vice-versa.  It just does not have enough draw from out-of-town to survive.  We've seen that for many regimes.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Jay is different than Burke in many ways. For Burke, it can't survive without the community and vice-versa. It just does not have enough draw from out-of-town to survive. We've seen that for many regimes.



can't it. isn't that the whole point of this development. to bring in people to spend money. isn't this regime the salvation.


Either way, I think your looking at backwards, the community can and will survive, it may be better off with outside money flowing like the salmon of capistrano, but pretending the community will crumble away because Burke is being run by people staring at a bottom line is to ignore the past TB, you know that. The NEK may lack a lot of things, but people pull it together here better than most places. 

I think if you were to ask J/maybe steve is reading this, he and they would attest that J most certainly relies on its community


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## fbrissette (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> I like how everyone is jumping ship as if that somehow that gets the message the to Q, he just lets more people go when the bottom line is out of reach, way to stick it to the man.  Ski it, support KT, support the NEK, I don't get the imaginary lines being drawn.




Sorry but I'm not following.  You're basically saying the lousier Qburke acts the more we should support them ???  I'll ski Jay , I'll bike KT but I'm not giving money to Burke.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Sorry but I'm not following. You're basically saying the lousier Qburke acts the more we should support them ??? I'll ski Jay , I'll bike KT but I'm not giving money to Burke.




do what you need to do. 

Tell me how to differentiate the line between helping the "Q" and helping the community? Where does one begin and the other end so I know exactly how to screw one of them but not the other.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> do what you need to do.
> 
> Tell me how to differentiate the line between helping the "Q" and helping the community? Where does one begin and the other end so I know exactly how to screw one of them but not the other.



Ary drew the line pretty clearly IMHO.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> can't it. isn't that the whole point of this development. to bring in people to spend money. isn't this regime the salvation.
> 
> 
> Either way, I think your looking at backwards, the community can and will survive, it may be better off with outside money flowing like the salmon of capistrano, but pretending the community will crumble away because Burke is being run by people staring at a bottom line is to ignore the past TB, you know that. The NEK may lack a lot of things, but people pull it together here better than most places.
> ...




Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000. 

You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> Either way, I think your looking at backwards, the community can and will survive, it may be better off with outside money flowing like the salmon of capistrano, but pretending the community will crumble away because Burke is being run by people staring at a bottom line is to ignore the past TB, you know that. The NEK may lack a lot of things, but people pull it together here better than most places.


I agree with this 100%. We're resourceful up here in these parts even if Domeskier thinks we are a bunch of backwoods hicks.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 20, 2013)

Kingdomtele has a good point about the fact the boycott would hurt the locals as well as QBurke.  

However, if the choice is to force QBurke to go out of business versus let their exceedingly poor judgment further damage the community and future devleopment in the NEK at large, then I would take the former.

Is there an alternative here like a change in management? Doesn't he answer to a board?  Investors?


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## oldtimer (Dec 20, 2013)

FWIW- here is another lens to view this through.  Let us suppose that Ari is not particularly skilled at running this type of operation and not experienced (mature?) enough to move with a light touch.  I think it may also be the case that he has been charged to try and make the place run at break even or better in it's current configuration.  In theory the foreign investment money is not to be spent on operations, only on Cap-Ex.  So to the extent there are losses, it will come out of someone's pocket.  I am certain that the mountain was rarely run at break-even since ticket sales are the only revenue stream.   It looks to me like a big ego with bad instincts and an impossible task (ok, a HUGE ego).

Lots of my friends work there and some are gone.  Those that are left are in the "we do what we are told" mode and none to thrilled by it.  But it is their job and they need those jobs.  The KT thing stinks at many levels as has been well reported here.

I am saddened by many, many things I have seen this year.  But in the end I will be sadder if Q's ineptitude does NELSAP Burke.  So I come down with Kingdom-tele.  I will ski with my friends and enjoy a hill I prefer to Jay Peak.  Burke has changed many a "I have all the answers" owners and managers before Q2.  Perhaps in time he will gain some humility and gain some respect for those around him.

meanwhile-  who can do anything about the forecast for the next week?   



thetrailboss said:


> Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000.
> 
> You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Kingdomtele has a good point about the fact the boycott would hurt the locals as well as QBurke.
> 
> However, if the choice is to force QBurke to go out of business versus let their exceedingly poor judgment further damage the community and future devleopment in the NEK at large, then I would take the former.
> 
> Is there an alternative here like a change in management? Doesn't he answer to a board? Investors?



He answers to Daddy.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the thing: Burke needs both locals and out-of-towners. However, Burke has done its best (relatively speaking) when it embraced the community. You may not remember but locals volunteered and helped "Bring Back the Bear" in 2000.
> 
> You're focusing a lot on us but not seeing the whole picture and that is that Ary, with a big smile, has said he is going alone. He is alienating folks in the community. That's the issue. This is not the first time he has done it over the past few months.




He can do whatever the hell he wants, its up to you and everyone else to decide if your money is better spent elsewhere. He is going alone because they have money and a lot of it. The reality is they will build their development, people will come and pay out the nose to use it and they don't need you/me ultimately.

Shake your fist all you want, don't go, draw your lines, but all that crap disappears when your riding the lift with your buddies, railing big turns down a deserted dippers, and drinking beer with friends after. the rest is in your head.

my only hope now is the trail crew can make some money now that they are seperated.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> FWIW- here is another lens to view this through. Let us suppose that Ari is not particularly skilled at running this type of operation and not experienced (mature?) enough to move with a light touch. I think it may also be the case that he has been charged to try and make the place run at break even or better in it's current configuration. In theory the foreign investment money is not to be spent on operations, only on Cap-Ex. So to the extent there are losses, it will come out of someone's pocket. I am certain that the mountain was rarely run at break-even since ticket sales are the only revenue stream. It looks to me like a big ego with bad instincts and an impossible task (ok, a HUGE ego).


 
I think Burke has run in the red for years since as you point out, their income is almost totally based on ticket sales. The money to keep things running has had to come out of the owners pocket which is something the Quiros’ seem to be trying to avoid.

The thing is, at this rate it seems like they willing to burn down the house in order save a few $ while they plan to build a bigger nicer mansion that will no longer have a family to live in it.

It seems a bit of patience is called for here while the grand plan is executed.

On the other hand maybe Q2 is trying to impress dad with his aggressive/heavy handed business management style. Something that doesn’t really work well in the hospitality, recreation sector.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> He can do whatever the hell he wants, its up to you and everyone else to decide if your money is better spent elsewhere. He is going alone because they have money and a lot of it. The reality is they will build their development, people will come and pay out the nose to use it and they don't need you/me ultimately.



Not so sure about that.  If they come out with a loss again this season, who is to say that Ary stays?  They are not going to throw good money after bad.  I think that Bill could tell them that it will work with the right management.  And you're not seeing my point that they draw more folks from the local community than out of town right now.  There is not a large pool of out-of-towners who will suddenly appear on Route 114 when the thing is built--it is just that competitive.  



> Shake your fist all you want, don't go, draw your lines, but all that crap disappears when your riding the lift with your buddies, railing big turns down a deserted dippers, and drinking beer with friends after. the rest is in your head.



Wow...something is wrong with KT!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think Burke has run in the red for years since as you point out, their income is almost totally based on ticket sales. The money to keep things running has had to come out of the owners pocket which is something the Quiros’ seem to be trying to avoid.
> 
> The thing is, at this rate it seems like they willing to burn down the house in order save a few $ while they plan to build a bigger nicer mansion that will no longer have a family to live in it.
> 
> ...



Bingo all around here.  Although I think that people have given him 10 months and he's shown what he is going to do.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

TB- the point I thought was that Burke couldn't survive with local support, that has changed now?

Your so sure, its working at J right? 

Nothing is wrong with me, I still fully expect the rich to get richer and when they don't dump and run like they always do, which is why all this shitstorm is stupid IMO, a bunch of people who love burke for what it is kicking the snowbank pretending they can't "go" there anymore because the owner is a goober and if he would just do what I like then I could go back.

the funny part will be in the summer when they charge double for the lift served mt bike and people still pay it


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> TB- the point I thought was that Burke couldn't survive with local support, that has changed now?



My position is, and was, the same.  There is a symbiotic relationship between the two and QBurke stands to lose the most out of taking the ball and going home.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> He answers to Daddy.



I thought there was a board of directors...


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> My position is, and was, the same. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two and QBurke stands to lose the most out of taking the ball and going home.



rich man moves on.  nothing new.  bring on the next visionary. we'll all still be living here shaking our heads trying to earn a living and having fun.

the rest of this is for everyone else to debate the intricacies of good business and where they want to spend their money


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I thought there was a board of directors...



Not for QBurke.  It is just Daddy and son AFAIK.  Bill might have a minority interest, but JPR has done a good job distancing themselves.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> rich man moves on.  nothing new.  bring on the next visionary. we'll all still be living here shaking our heads trying to earn a living and having fun.
> 
> the rest of this is for everyone else to debate the intricacies of good business and where they want to spend their money


True, at some point you just have to let go, let the $ men do what they do and you continue to try to enjoy doing what you do.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 20, 2013)

From a previous Digger article:




> I’m expecting between 100 and 150 investors to come from this trip,” Stenger said Tuesday, the majority to solidify in the next 30 days.
> That would yield between $50 million and $75 million in capital, to be split between Newport’s future AnC Bio and Burke Mountain. Stenger is not authorized yet to raise funds for Jay Peak’s other planned development, a combined mixed-use block, marina and waterfront hotel in downtown Newport.



This would imply that the money invested is not Q's money but would come from other outside investors.  I would assume there would be some mechanism for the outside investors to exert control over the management process.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the EB-5 rules require active investment.


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 20, 2013)

Yes, I believe they do require active investment.  But we do not know what they are investing in.  For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Yes, I believe they do require active investment.  But we do not know what they are investing in.  For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.



That is correct. EB-5 investment money is only available for new capital investments that "create jobs", like a hotel. That money can't be used to improve on mountain infrastructure or renovation of existing buildings. The investors of the money can choose what capital projects they want to invest in. They typically want to choose the ones with the best chance of producing the employment numbers that will ensure their green card is approved.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 20, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Yes, I believe they do require active investment.  But we do not know what they are investing in.  For instance it may be the EB-5 money is being invested in the hotel as a stand alone project.



Got it.  In other words, QBurke may be operations only with separate entities responsible for the hotel, pool, indoor bike park.. etc.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Dec 20, 2013)

I'll step in and take some slugs for Andrew (who is more than capable but out being capable, somewhere else, at the moment.)

First, with respect to KT, Burke is far from taking its lift and going home.  Ary Jr felt that the contract didn't work but remains interested in working something out so that everything is connected come Spring.  The media characterized the 'severing of ties' in a much more dramatic/hyperbolic way than what reality represents, but I completely understand it.  Lots of this could have happened differently, should have been tended to with more touch and it wasn't.  That's on all of us involved with this particular incident.

As to the Q before Burke, it is what it is.  Whether or not I, nor anyone else without a last name that rhymes with Quiros, agrees with the strategy can certainly still be germane to the conversation-but it, in reality, doesn't matter.  I can say that the family felt that adding the Q was positioning the resort differently, and wanted to as a result of year's of financial water-treading, and acted on that instinct.  I don't have the year's of association to the brand that many do, but I still empathize with those that feel awfully weird about this; When Warren Haynes filled the Jerry role and they still called themselves the Dead, I felt icky too.  Worse when Joan Osborne got involved.  Even wrote them a letter.  They ignored me.

Suffice to say, Andrew will continue to report back here from time to time, and you've all been kind enough to not expect parted waters from him.  We are hopeful things can improve.  If that's all we have to go on at this point, at least for us, it has to be enough.

Regardless, I hope all of you have a good holiday and we have better things to talk about in 2014.

Steve



thetrailboss said:


> Not for QBurke.  It is just Daddy and son AFAIK.  Bill might have a minority interest, but JPR has done a good job distancing themselves.


----------



## dlague (Dec 20, 2013)

dlague said:


> At this stage, we will not be visiting Burke at all this year!  This type of stuff is a turn off!  The MTB competition is increasing with more resorts offering this type of adventure.  Kingdom Trails is well known already and is established in the MTB community.  In fact, the services in the area benefit because of that.  Taking away the down hill portions of KT MTB and all the work that they put into it does not seem right either.



Damn it!  Just realized that we have two Fox 44 cards which include a stop there!  So I guess at least one trip is warranted!  I will make sure I eat in the village instead of at the lodge!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

dlague said:


> Damn it!  Just realized that we have two Fox 44 cards which include a stop there!  So I guess at least one trip is warranted!  I will make sure I eat in the village instead of at the lodge!


Just let me know when you head up. Wouldn't mind making some turns if I can get a hall pass.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

One things for sure, this whole situation has made getting to 3,000 posts (worth another entry in the giveaway threads) a lot easier. 8)


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## dlague (Dec 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Just let me know when you head up. Wouldn't mind making some turns if I can get a hall pass.



Sure thing!


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 20, 2013)

Steve-   thank you for chiming in from JPR.

I will speak for all to say that we are glad to know that you all at JPR are in contact with the folks here at Burke.

And with that I would like to wish you good and profitable holidays.  

let us all hope for wrap around snow on the backside of th3e current weather event-


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks Steve.  I guess we are all hoping that you will help them out.  

And as for the article, I have to disagree.  It's easy to slam the press, but I don't think that it's there fault what happened here.  Ary called someone from VTDigger and smiled for the camera as he said what he said.  I think that the article was pretty diplomatic about what happened--I've heard from local friends that things were not as you suggest but I understand you're in a tough spot.  I will also say that Ary has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Here's the WCAX video I've referred to:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23920473/building-a-new-kingdom-part-4


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2013)

Well on another forum someone else posted a link to a MTB Google Group. Check out the "Kingdom Trails and Burke..." thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uvmba  All I can say, if this is an actual unedited quote from Ary is HOLY SHIT.:-o


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## DoublePlanker (Dec 20, 2013)

What a douchebag.  QDoucheBag.  QBag.


----------



## whitemtn27 (Dec 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well on another forum someone else posted a link to a MTB Google Group. Check out the "Kingdom Trails and Burke..." thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uvmba  All I can say, if this is an actual unedited quote from Ary is HOLY SHIT.:-o




^^^That can't be real, right?  The attitude sounds about as expected, but a Yahoo email address?


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## fbrissette (Dec 20, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well on another forum someone else posted a link to a MTB Google Group. Check out the "Kingdom Trails and Burke..." thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uvmba  All I can say, if this is an actual unedited quote from Ary is HOLY SHIT.:-o


 
If he really wrote that (and I have a hard time believing he did) he definitely needs to work on his PR skills (or lack thereof)


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Wow, really?!


----------



## kingdom-tele (Dec 20, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> I'll step in and take some slugs for Andrew (who is more than capable but out being capable, somewhere else, at the moment.)
> 
> First, with respect to KT, Burke is far from taking its lift and going home.  Ary Jr felt that the contract didn't work but remains interested in working something out so that everything is connected come Spring.  The media characterized the 'severing of ties' in a much more dramatic/hyperbolic way than what reality represents, but I completely understand it.  Lots of this could have happened differently, should have been tended to with more touch and it wasn't.  That's on all of us involved with this particular incident.
> 
> ...



feels great huh.

the biggest problem I see, the guy goes on air stating how he will communicate and convince everyone they are making sound choices. A new owner, a lofty development plan that is contingent on people that don't live here, and a guy who doesn't seem to be living up to his word.  Make a decision, but communicate. The ego fluffing will sink the ship with the local people, you know that Steve, if there is one thing we do better than rallying to help one another its hold a grudge. 

sad to see, so many options, so many things could be done to get burke and its uniqueness into the public.


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## SnowRock (Dec 20, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> If he really wrote that (and I have a hard time believing he did) he definitely needs to work on his PR skills (or lack thereof)



Ouch... As someone that works in PR/Communications I can say this type of thing happens way more than you might think and it sucks to be the guy that has to deal with it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

SnowRock said:


> Ouch... As someone that works in PR/Communications I can say this type of thing happens way more than you might think and it sucks to be the guy that has to deal with it.



Burke may be hiring soon....


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## SnowRock (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke may be hiring soon....



Ha, well I do the work for a far more hated industry...  so I could bring some relevant experience to the table.


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## the original trailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks Steve for bringing a calm and sane response to the table here. I (and maybe more...) hope you continue to involve yourself to put "lots of things" back on the right track.


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## Andrew (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke may be hiring soon....



Easy there, TB. As Steve mentioned, this is obviously a situation that  required a softer touch than what was used, and we'll all take on some  of that. That was obviously before this newest development, one in which  we, admittedly, still need to do some digging into. I've been absent on  this thread today because (as you can imagine), I've been otherwise  occupied. Ultimately we'll all figure out what was said, or what was  intended to be said, or however else you want to look at that.  Statements will be made and conversations/arguments/discussions will be  had. But in all of that, all I ask is that let's try not to lose sight  of the fact that the end goal here is, and has always been, an amicable  solution that is in the best interests of all involved. Have there been  and will there continue to be disagreements? Yep, and if I were a  betting man, I'd bet that there will be more. Will we get there? I honestly believe that we will. Will it be a bumpy road? Let's just say.... I'd probably keep that popcorn  handy if I were you.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Andrew said:


> Easy there, TB. As Steve mentioned, this is obviously a situation that  required a softer touch than what was used, and we'll all take on some  of that. That was obviously before this newest development, one in which  we, admittedly, still need to do some digging into. I've been absent on  this thread today because (as you can imagine), I've been otherwise  occupied. Ultimately we'll all figure out what was said, or what was  intended to be said, or however else you want to look at that.  Statements will be made and conversations/arguments/discussions will be  had. But in all of that, all I ask is that let's try not to lose sight  of the fact that the end goal here is, and has always been, an amicable  solution that is in the best interests of all involved. Have there been  and will there continue to be disagreements? Yep, and if I were a  betting man, I'd bet that there will be more. Will we get there? I honestly believe that we will. Will it be a bumpy road? Let's just say.... I'd probably keep that popcorn  handy if I were you.



I will look forward to a response and hopefully a reconsideration of direction.  

It also seems like you and Steve see this as some kind of misinterpretation or something that is unclear.  I don't think that's fair.  From the article, with your smiling boss, he was pretty clear as to what he said, meant, and did.  Folks do make mistakes, but it did not seem like he made any mistake in his mind.  And the only other comment I have is heaven forbid if that Email that FTN posted which recently surfaced is legit.  If it is you have some serious problems on your hands.


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## Andrew (Dec 20, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> To be clear everyone is upset about what Ary said and did.



Sorry TB. Long day.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2013)

Andrew said:


> Sorry TB. Long day.



I think we all agree this is not your fault.  Sorry that this is what you have to deal with in what should be an exciting start to the ski season.


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## MVinME (Dec 20, 2013)

I'll still go to KT for the riding.  Best XC stuff is still on the darling hillside anyway.  I knew the utopian vision of the permission based access to private lands would be screwed up some rich idiot at some point.  All we can hope is that it blows up in their face and the resort changes hands to someone with more vision. IMHO


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 20, 2013)

Some people here are finally beginning to see the evils of EB-5 and the economic folly of artificial inorganic manipulation of the marketplace.

Took a while, but late is better than never.


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## yeggous (Dec 20, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Some people here are finally beginning to see the evils of EB-5 and the economic folly of artificial inorganic manipulation of the marketplace.
> 
> Took a while, but late is better than never.



People want to dump money into the US in exchange for a green card. That's better than some other ways we give them out.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 20, 2013)

yeggous said:


> People want to dump money into the US in exchange for a green card. That's better than some other ways we give them out.



The rich people jumping the long-line part isnt the problem (though, yeah, it's kind of ugly).  

The problem is the unintended consequences of monkeying with the market.  Most people with a facile view of economics will say, _"what's the problem!  Tons of money is coming in from foreigners, it didnt cost American's anything, and it will create jobs!"_ - but just give it about a decade and you'll see the problems.  The jobs dont come, not really anyway, and they're often transient and always fraudulently overestimated.   And in this particular case, they're so hungry to bring in $500,000 checks, it's painfully obvious they couldnt care less how it's done.   An unproven biotech in Newport Vermont?  A German window manufacturer?  An "International Airport" in Newport?  A distribution center for The Jelly of the Month Club?  It really doesnt matter, just keep forwarding those uber-rich foreigner's checks please.   This will not end well.


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## Steve@jpr (Dec 21, 2013)

To be clear here, I think the article was definitely diplomatic and represented what happened in a perfectly legitimate way .  I'm just saying that I too have a pretty good read on what's happening at higher levels and if I was asked to read the leaves, I'd say something will, in fact, get worked out in time for the spring.  



thetrailboss said:


> Thanks Steve.  I guess we are all hoping that you will help them out.
> 
> And as for the article, I have to disagree.  It's easy to slam the press, but I don't think that it's there fault what happened here.  Ary called someone from VTDigger and smiled for the camera as he said what he said.  I think that the article was pretty diplomatic about what happened--I've heard from local friends that things were not as you suggest but I understand you're in a tough spot.  I will also say that Ary has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well on another forum someone else posted a link to a MTB Google Group. Check out the "Kingdom Trails and Burke..." thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uvmba  All I can say, if this is an actual unedited quote from Ary is HOLY SHIT.:-o



"now I have stopped it with great pleasure."  That can't be real unless this guy is Gordon Gekko.  It has to be someone posing as Ary.  The yahoo email address is a red flag, but I could see how he wouldn't want to use a qburke.com email and have their servers overloaded. :lol:


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## Nick (Dec 21, 2013)

I'd be surprised if That email was real. Should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dlague (Dec 21, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> Stepped on?  Pay to play.
> 
> or don't
> 
> other than Ide and the crew that dropped their lives into making those trails, who is getting stepped on? You guys crack me up, pedal your ass up the hill. I like how everyone is jumping ship as if that somehow that gets the message the to Q, he just lets more people go when the bottom line is out of reach, way to stick it to the man.  Ski it, support KT, support the NEK, I don't get the imaginary lines being drawn.



Good point!


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## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> I'll step in and take some slugs for Andrew (who is more than capable but out being capable, somewhere else, at the moment.)
> 
> First, with respect to KT, Burke is far from taking its lift and going home.  Ary Jr felt that the contract didn't work but remains interested in working something out so that everything is connected come Spring.  The media characterized the 'severing of ties' in a much more dramatic/hyperbolic way than what reality represents, but I completely understand it.  Lots of this could have happened differently, should have been tended to with more touch and it wasn't.  That's on all of us involved with this particular incident.
> 
> ...



Very reasonable thoughts Steve regarding the Kingdom Trails.  Hope it works out for all.

As for the Grateful Dead analogy.  You might say I had an opinion on that matter too.

Though, I don't think the comparison is fully accurate.  An accurate comparison would be if Warren came into the band, fired Bobby, said he was going to be both Bobby and Jerry and then change the name of the band to W-Dead.


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## zeke (Dec 21, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> "now I have stopped it with great pleasure."  That can't be real unless this guy is Gordon Gekko.  It has to be someone posing as Ary.  The yahoo email address is a red flag, but I could see how he wouldn't want to use a qburke.com email and have their servers overloaded. :lol:



not saying that the content of the email is real, but the email address is accurate. and based on the arrogance of the Q rename and the way other relationships are being/have been handled, i don't find the petulant child tone surprising at all. that and the fact that neither of the marketing guys called its authenticity into question makes me think it's probably genuine.


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## dlague (Dec 21, 2013)

I am amazed the three threads are so active around this issue!  Clearly it sparked a fire!  I hope it is as Steve said and they work it out!  Thinking about I will ski there just because it used to be my home mountain along with Jay Peak!  We generally only go there two or three time per season!  I will eat down in the town to support locals!


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## Steve@jpr (Dec 21, 2013)

Touche my friend, touche.



deadheadskier said:


> Very reasonable thoughts Steve regarding the Kingdom Trails.  Hope it works out for all.
> 
> As for the Grateful Dead analogy.  You might say I had an opinion on that matter too.
> 
> Though, I don't think the comparison is fully accurate.  An accurate comparison would be if Warren came into the band, fired Bobby, said he was going to be both Bobby and Jerry and then change the name of the band to W-Dead.


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## DJAK (Dec 21, 2013)

zeke said:


> that and the fact that neither of the marketing guys called its authenticity into question makes me think it's probably genuine.



Let's all say a little prayer tonight for our friends Andrew and Steve (and the staff/community as a whole at Burke). I've been holding some serious Qtongue for a while watching this Qtrain ride off the Qtracks hoping it was just a bad call (about the Q) but if that email is genuine (and I agree with the above statement), then only some "change management headaches", which is a PC term for someone else leading the resort, or at least power being distributed, is going to allow for a successful future. Leaders that operate without concern for ramifications (especially when they have just created a storm) end up having their orgs consumed by them. 

Mistakes happen. Acknowledging them is the first step in solving them (not just having Steve and Andrew try to commendably clean up after). The letter Q was the first step in creating this island Q2 is putting himself on. Can he acknowledge errors? TBD. If he can then maybe he can learn on the job and lead. That's the preferred solution. Clearly the Q family cares deeply about the NEK. No question about that. 

There's such a thing as a bad hire. Typically it's those with little to no experience in the field. Slapping the name on the resort in form of a stock symbol only draws more attention to the nepotism. Choice at this stage? Accept that maybe lineage doesn't equal resort leader or redistribute leadership so that there's someone who has done this before in the power circle. Starts with silently dropping the Q. It will taint the future till it's gone. Regardless of any excuses that exist for it's creation. 

The Q clan clearly cares deeply about the region and the resort. It's not a question of passion. It's a question of can they stick to what they are good at and allow those that are good at running ski areas do it on their behalf. Or can they not. Quite the Question. I support the Quiros family. They are doing great things for Vermont. If they want to continue doing great things for Vermont they'll take this feedback, discuss it, and consider a reassessment of decisions made (that sort of thing is allowed). 

One thing I know for sure, is that a decade in ski area marketing, communications and damage control does not qualify me to fly a helicopter. I sure hope we're not still talking about the Q in 2 months. I would think the Q clan would feel the same way. One way that happens though.. Mistakes happen. They can be remedied. Only once acknowledged. Would Q Red Sox be a good move? Same premise. Let's hit the reset button. It's right there in the form of Q Burke embracing a future as Burke Mountain in the community of East Burke, Vermont. You'll have 10,000 new friends in one day.


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## Edd (Dec 21, 2013)

I was making some fun in another thread but it's difficult to overemphasize how wrongly the Q marketing thing can rub a person. 

I understand that it can sound like a small thing being made a big deal of but saying the term QBurke out loud is like pissing in my ear. It's difficult to picture how this meeting must have gone. Professional adults sat around a table looking at each other and said "Yes, this is a good idea!"  It sounds impossible. 

If a poll were taken on this site you'd get close to zero percent support for the Q. I've only been to Burke a few times but I love it. I can only imagine how someone who is truly invested feels.


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## Cannonball (Dec 21, 2013)

It's important to remember ....


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## deadheadskier (Dec 21, 2013)

Edd said:


> I was making some fun in another thread but it's difficult to overemphasize how wrongly the Q marketing thing can rub a person.
> 
> I understand that it can sound like a small thing being made a big deal of but saying the term QBurke out loud is like pissing in my ear. It's difficult to picture how this meeting must have gone. Professional adults sat around a table looking at each other and said "Yes, this is a good idea!"  It sounds impossible.
> 
> If a poll were taken on this site you'd get close to zero percent support for the Q. I've only been to Burke a few times but I love it. I can only imagine how someone who is truly invested feels.



Not only all that but is there a single ski area in the country or even the world for that matter where the owner named the place after themselves? I'm drawing a blank.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 21, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> is there a single ski area in the country or even the world for that matter where the owner named the place after themselves? I'm drawing a blank.



Do little ones count?

If so, there's a bunch, like Cochran's in Vermont, McIntyre Ski Area in New Hampshire, etc.....


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## billski (Dec 21, 2013)

I skied at the Q yesterday.  The downstairs has been remodeled to greatly accommodate inside ticket sales.  They also moved out rentals and put brown-bag lunch tables and equipment cubbies in their stead.

The signs and trail maps outside were all being updated to the new graphic design.    It reminds me of






I hope that the relationship BMA has with the Q does not become frayed.  Hopefully there is some legal arrangement already grandfathered in.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Not only all that but is there a single ski area in the country or even the world for that matter where the owner named the place after themselves? I'm drawing a blank.



Pats Peak


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## AdironRider (Dec 21, 2013)

Lets be real, the previous marketing team sucked. 

And, at the very least, people sure are talking about Burke now.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 21, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Lets be real, the previous marketing team sucked.
> 
> And, at the very least, people sure are talking about Burke now.



Qqqqawwqqqqqqw stupid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Pats Peak



Very true.  But the difference is that that family does not really parade themselves out in front of the place.  They've got a solid manager in Kris Blombach and he does a great job.  In my couple seasons there I never saw one Patenaude family member.  They kept a low profile.  Plus their "mountain" had no real name and they started the place themselves on their family's land.  They were also locals.  



AdironRider said:


> Lets be real, the previous marketing team sucked.
> 
> And, at the very least, people sure are talking about Burke now.



The Q thing is being resoundingly rejected.  

The other thing that I and others go, "WTF?" to is the whole "Judge" Pass name and website.  That is really out there.  I don't know if that was the previous marketing team's idea or not.  I know that they did the best that they could with what they had.  It might not have been as in your face or as visible as you can be, but it was there.  It did need some improvement.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2013)

billski said:


> I skied at the Q yesterday.  The downstairs has been remodeled to greatly accommodate inside ticket sales.  They also moved out rentals and put brown-bag lunch tables and equipment cubbies in their stead.
> 
> The signs and trail maps outside were all being updated to the new graphic design.    It reminds me of
> 
> ...



With the bottom line being in focus, I don't think that it was a very high priority to renovate the Lodge (the third time in ten years) or to make new signs and logos.  The money spent on the latter easily could have made up for that $20k deal with KT.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Very true.  But the difference is that that family does not really parade themselves out in front of the place.  They've got a solid manager in Kris Blombach and he does a great job.  In my couple seasons there I never saw one Patenaude family member.  They kept a low profile.  Plus their "mountain" had no real name and they started the place themselves on their family's land.  They were also locals.



I was just saying the place is named after the owners. I agree they do not parade around and actually just blend in. They are there every now and then. Saw one today eating lunch having a beer blending in. Kris does do a great job with the place and they know their market and know how to make their market happy for the most part.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> I was just saying the place is named after the owners. I agree they do not parade around and actually just blend in. They are there every now and then. Saw one today eating lunch having a beer blending in. Kris does do a great job with the place and they know their market and know how to make their market happy for the most part.



Exactly.


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## zeke (Dec 22, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Lets be real, the previous marketing team sucked.
> 
> And, at the very least, people sure are talking about Burke now.



it's not really about marketing, it's about an arrogant rich kid with no practical experience burning bridges with those who have experience. but what sucked so bad about the precious marketing team? not really sure where that's coming from


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## nekmuffy (Dec 22, 2013)

Of course we all want Burke to thrive.  Many of us were hopeful about the new ownership, particularly because we all like Jay and respect Bill Stenger.  It was just unimaginable that any new owner/manager would see Kingdom Trails as a threat rather than a partner.  If the new manager wanted to re-negotiate the contract with KTA that is reasonable.  However, to refuse to make good on money collected for KTA at Burke is simply theft.  And then to accuse KTA of taking advantage of Burke Mountain is ridiculous.  I am 100% positive that Quiros did send that reply to the Upper Valley Mtn bike club member.  And it is absolutely representative of his attitude, lack of professionalism, and lack of understanding of how a community can contribute to the success of a business.  And what makes us all that more frustrated is that we do want to support our local mountain.  But as some folks have noted we are at mercy to those who have purchased and now manage the mountain.  Even if Quiros had to "clean house," we could live with that.  Those that were "let go" were certainly recognized elsewhere in the community as valuable resources.  And many of our friends and family still work at and benefit from Burke Mountain.  But we are hurt.  Hurt because we all work so hard to build and maintain community including the countless hours of volunteer work and landowner generosity that built kingdom trails, and local and not so local private money that have saved a mountain several times.  Hurt is still a valid feeling in our reality.  We put trust in others.  We put trust in this new arrangement.  It just all seems so crazy!!!  Finally, Quiros uses financial stability as a reason for his decisions.  I have yet to understand how his decision to not allow Kingdom Trails to groom Nordic Trails on QBurke property is anything but spiteful.  He has broken a thread but not the fabric of the community of Burke and the Kingdom Trails Association.  However, I believe the backlash and desire to have Quiros feel some pain is human nature, particularly when some of the decisions and statements seem unwarranted, egotistical, childish, and unnecessary.  Yes, the conundrum is how do we make Quiros feel the consequences without hurting ourselves?


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## the original trailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

Well said and welcome to AZ !


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## fbrissette (Dec 22, 2013)

nekmuffy said:


> I have yet to understand how his decision to not allow Kingdom Trails to groom Nordic Trails on QBurke property is anything but spiteful.



Wow..... How pathetic..


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 22, 2013)

I hope this all gets resolved amicably as there could be expanding repercussions in the NEK with other projects.
The Q family are probably already feeling the consequences.  Until now they have had a very low profile despite all that has been going on.
I got the impression Mr Q Sr was a prideful, self effacing type of guy.
Now they are getting all sorts of high profile negative publicity associated with their name and it probably hurts.
I noticed at the Stateside hotel opening that Q jr was next to dad and Shumlin in the center of things, what did he have to do with the hotel or Jay?  Also noticed that Bill is off to the side, both his sons who work and manage Jay are not even in the picture. A picture is worth a thousand words.
In other news, Q just purchased a small sportplane company and will be relocating it to Newport.
A great fix would be to let Jr run the plane biz and have someone with experience and people skills run Burke.
Merry Christmas all, nasty weather here in NEK today


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## the original trailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

And maybe, just maybe, its a good time to right-size the Mid-Burke project. The two-hotel/base lodge structure as planned will turn more heads than the Sheffield wind towers....


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## billski (Dec 22, 2013)

LONGBOARDR said:


> The Q family are probably already feeling the consequences.



Can't say I agree.  He owns the place,  seems to have plentiful cash, so he can do what he wants, including taking the place down in flames.  I'm no apologist at all, but it's a private concern on private   property, which we have all benefited from in one form or another.  

Look what happened to Tenny and Big Squaw (tentatively on the mend).  If the family wants to squander their money, they have every right to.   Reminds me of a company that I once worked for, many of you never have heard of; Wang Laboratories. The creator and world leader of the first word processor and desktop calculators embraced by millions.  The 30-something son was knighted Dad's successor.  In his tenure, he could not manage infighting but did manage to preside over the demise of a 30,000-employee, multi-billion dollar company in a matter of a couple of years.

It's  my understanding the son is ex-military officer, who's subordinates  loved working for.  For some reason that is given as a reason to  believe.


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## Tin (Dec 22, 2013)

The perfect gift this holiday season...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

Tin said:


> The perfect gift this holiday season...
> 
> View attachment 9904



Between this and FTN's proposed sweater I'd be set for Christmas.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

nekmuffy said:


> Of course we all want Burke to thrive.  Many of us were hopeful about the new ownership, particularly because we all like Jay and respect Bill Stenger.  It was just unimaginable that any new owner/manager would see Kingdom Trails as a threat rather than a partner.  If the new manager wanted to re-negotiate the contract with KTA that is reasonable.  However, to refuse to make good on money collected for KTA at Burke is simply theft.  And then to accuse KTA of taking advantage of Burke Mountain is ridiculous.  I am 100% positive that Quiros did send that reply to the Upper Valley Mtn bike club member.  And it is absolutely representative of his attitude, lack of professionalism, and lack of understanding of how a community can contribute to the success of a business.  And what makes us all that more frustrated is that we do want to support our local mountain.  But as some folks have noted we are at mercy to those who have purchased and now manage the mountain.  Even if Quiros had to "clean house," we could live with that.  Those that were "let go" were certainly recognized elsewhere in the community as valuable resources.  And many of our friends and family still work at and benefit from Burke Mountain.  But we are hurt.  Hurt because we all work so hard to build and maintain community including the countless hours of volunteer work and landowner generosity that built kingdom trails, and local and not so local private money that have saved a mountain several times.  Hurt is still a valid feeling in our reality.  We put trust in others.  We put trust in this new arrangement.  It just all seems so crazy!!!  Finally, Quiros uses financial stability as a reason for his decisions.  I have yet to understand how his decision to not allow Kingdom Trails to groom Nordic Trails on QBurke property is anything but spiteful.  He has broken a thread but not the fabric of the community of Burke and the Kingdom Trails Association.  However, I believe the backlash and desire to have Quiros feel some pain is human nature, particularly when some of the decisions and statements seem unwarranted, egotistical, childish, and unnecessary.  Yes, the conundrum is how do we make Quiros feel the consequences without hurting ourselves?



Welcome to the boards.  And probably the most articulate "first" post I've seen here in some time.  

If it is true what you say about Q now telling KT to not groom winter trails on Burke's land then that is an all-time low.  So is the XC center not running this year?  That would be huge.  Granted it may not be a big moneymaker...yet...it is widely known to have some of the best terrain around.  

You also confirm the ugly truth that I was hearing this summer and fall: that Q's beef was that he did not think he needed to pay KT anything despite the written contract that they had.  That is really low...the kind of sh^& that I have to deal with on a regular basis in my line-of-work.  Breach of contract is really a reflection of a lack of trust.  

And a lot of folks merely think that folks are having gripes about "change" or "marketing".  That's an oversimplification of what is going on.  This is about the relationship between a community and the mountain; neighbors, friends.  Q made it very clear what he thinks and it was neither good nor articulated well at all.  Again, in 2000, those who were the powers to be realized that the community would be needed to bring the mountain back.  They articulated a good message: you need the mountain and others do too. We can't simply rely on someone with deep pockets to do it all while some get a free-ride.  Help us, get passes, make it happen.  The community responded and responded greatly.  

And Q got it initially...or at least said they did.  Folks here forget the "focus" group dinner they had with Burke locals back in April or May.  The reports I got were that folks were OK with improvements and change, but all said "don't forget what makes this place special" and "don't forget the community".  Some told me that they felt that Q2's attitude was "in one ear, out the other" or that they had already decided what they wanted to do.  If this is the case, chalk this up what I said earlier here about, "how hard can it be to run a ski area?  Just do what Bill and JPR do."  

My unofficial reports are that this is really making a lot of locals upset, is hurting staff morale, and skiers and riders are not coming (probably because of the weather).  

This is not progress.


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## billski (Dec 22, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Between this and FTN's proposed sweater I'd be set for Christmas.


  Do you think you could stand being reminded of this all day long?


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## nekmuffy (Dec 22, 2013)

Kingdom Trails is operating a winter outdoor recreation center located across from the Wildflower Inn on Darling Hill.  You can check out their website for details.  They did have to abandon the Dashney Center and I think what was approximately 60 km of trails there due to a lack of agreement with QBurke.  KT did use the shack that I suppose belongs to QBurke but I simply cannot see any other real expense to QBurke to allow KT to continue to operate out of the shack with its own equipment and employees.  I am excited about KT's new operations that are greatly focusing the quality of product for fat bikers, Nordic skiers, snowshoers, sledding, and skating but am bummed about losing the beautiful terrain to which you reference.  I see the lack of access for KT to groom the Nordic trails on QBurke property as a slap in the face to all the landowners who currently make Kingdom Trails possible.  We know it is a very unique and fragile system of trust but it has worked pretty well for 20 years! According to QBurke's website they are grooming 6 km and the rest is "backcountry."  They do say that current KT members have unrestricted use of the trails.  But if QBurke can only provide 6 km, why not let KT provide 60 km? I don't get it.  Oh yeah, and I don't think anyone makes money on Nordic.  I'm pretty sure that KT Nordic operations are "subsidized" by mtn bikers.  But so be it.  Their mission is to provide recreation and stimulate the economy.  Oh, and one more thing.  The Burke community recently put together a hugely successful Bill Koch league.  KT greatly supported that in many ways one of which was by purchasing and putting up a yurt - I was skiing there the day I saw at least a dozen volunteers putting it up.  The Bill Koch league operated out of BMA and the Dashney center. It was a location that energized the entire Burke Mountain scene.  I'm sure the Bill Koch league will continue to thrive with its core of passionate volunteers but it is just another ding in the community caused by QBurke that will be banged out and buffed up by the locals.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

billski said:


> Do you think you could stand being reminded of this all day long?



I'm pretty disappointed by the stupidity, Bill.  This is my home mountain after all.

And honestly I remember the good times with my friends and family there....and what Burke is really about.  Not what's going on now.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

There also is A LOT of negative feedback on Facebook about the "Q" and the KT debacle.  I've seen that someone at the mountain has tried to diplomatically respond (presumably Andrew) and one theme that has emerged is the "the press got it wrong, it's not that bad" line.  Sorry, but this has to stop.  Ary said what he said; I don't think there's much ambiguity there.  It's good to admit that there might be a problem, but shooting the messenger is pretty weak. 

And someone else suggested it and I agree: Q Sr. needs help with his new plane factory and Q2 is a pilot so he should move on to that.  In the words of the late Senator George Aiken (R-VT), "let's declare victory and go home."


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## o3jeff (Dec 22, 2013)

Edd said:


> It's difficult to picture how this meeting must have gone. Professional adults sat around a table looking at each other and said "Yes, this is a good idea!"  It sounds impossible.



My guess is there were 6 people that thought it was a bad idea.....The rest probably agreed with the Qjr to gets some brownie points and to stroke his Q ego.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

o3jeff said:


> My guess is there were 6 people that thought it was a bad idea.....The rest probably agreed with the Qjr to gets some brownie points and to stroke his Q ego.



I think you're giving them too much credit. I think it's safe to say that it was a meeting of one.


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## DJAK (Dec 22, 2013)

http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/22/q-burke-kingdom-trails-mend/

A steady, experienced hand has taken the rudder, if only for a moment. All they need to do now (an opinion) is accept that naming the place after themselves while inserting the chosen one as President was not the best way to be welcomed or taken seriously. My guess is either the pre-Q is silently phased out (to buy back some credibility - it's like dragging an anchor of ridiculousness) and/or Q2 is reassigned to a role more in his wheelhouse (aviation biz perhaps), of which there are many. Would be great to see the guy do well in the region and perhaps even get back into resort leadership after some time to learn.

Without that change, Bill is likely to be doing these after the fact saves more than once.


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## dlague (Dec 22, 2013)

DJAK said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/22/q-burke-kingdom-trails-mend/
> 
> A steady, experienced hand has taken the rudder, if only for a moment. All they need to do now (an opinion) is accept that naming the place after themselves while inserting the chosen one as President was not the best way to be welcomed or taken seriously. My guess is either the pre-Q is silently phased out (to buy back some credibility - it's like dragging an anchor of ridiculousness) and/or Q2 is reassigned to a role more in his wheelhouse (aviation biz perhaps), of which there are many. Would be great to see the guy do well in the region and perhaps even get back into resort leadership after some time to learn.
> 
> Without that change, Bill is likely to be doing these after the fact saves more than once.



Well that is good news and we can thank Bill for that!


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## teqeeler (Dec 22, 2013)

zeke said:


> it's not really about marketing, it's about an arrogant rich kid with no practical experience burning bridges with those who have experience. but what sucked so bad about the precious marketing team? not really sure where that's coming from




This whole Qburke thing reminds me of the movie "out cold" 

The comments of the owner seem like they could have happened easily by someone who is in charge.
 I don't no if anyone has seen our governor in action but he is probably one of the most verbally challenged people i have ever heard in charge of something in my life. He has made many asinine statements as a public figure, even with a PR team he still can't help himself. i can imagine an owner of a private company doing alot worse.


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## polski (Dec 22, 2013)

Steve@jpr said:


> As to the Q before Burke, it is what it is.  Whether or not I, nor anyone else without a last name that rhymes with Quiros, agrees with the strategy can certainly still be germane to the conversation-but it, in reality, doesn't matter.  *I can say that the family felt that adding the Q was positioning the resort differently, and wanted to as a result of year's of financial water-treading, and acted on that instinct.*



In other words, prepending the "Q" was a business decision. Fine. I'm all for owners of a for-profit business taking steps to stem historical losses, turn things around and make a valued place sustainable. But prudent business leaders also evaluate their decisions for effectiveness and net impact on the bottom line, before and after they are made. I am curious whether any quality market research was done beforehand or is planned down the road for cost/benefit analysis. I also am curious what those costs were, as logo design can cost an eye-popping amount and changing out the old logo wherever it was used also is non-trivial. I don't expect answers to these questions from a private company (though I'm particularly curious how rebranding costs compared to the $20K in the KT dispute) but just wonder the extent to which this was a carefully thought out vs. vanity move.


On a barely related note, a little story for a yuk: In the late 1990s there was a Massachusetts-based tech company called CMGI with an grossly outsized stock price despite the fact nobody really knew what they did or how they ever could come close to justifying their valuation. At the peak of the tech bubble CMGI bought the naming rights to the Patriots' new stadium in Foxboro. Before the next season started the tech bubble burst, CMGI bailed out of the stadium deal and Gillette stepped in. At which point some wag said CMGI stood for "Call Me Gillette Instead."


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## wa-loaf (Dec 22, 2013)

polski said:


> On a barely related note, a little story for a yuk: In the late 1990s there was a Massachusetts-based tech company called CMGI with an grossly outsized stock price despite the fact nobody really knew what they did or how they ever could come close to justifying their valuation. At the peak of the tech bubble CMGI bought the naming rights to the Patriots' new stadium in Foxboro. Before the next season started the tech bubble burst, CMGI bailed out of the stadium deal and Gillette stepped in. At which point some wag said CMGI stood for "Call Me Gillette Instead."



Ha, I worked for a CMGI subsidy back then called iCast.com we blew through $100 million in a year before the whole ship went down.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

That article confirmed that the Email that surfaced on that bike site and that FTN posted was in fact legit.  All I can say is wow.  In my years on AZ and in skiing in general I have never seen anything that even remotely comes close to the shear arrogance there.  I was hoping that someone would admit it was a hoax, but the fact that a CEO sent that Email to a guest is just completely unreal.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2013)

teqeeler said:


> This whole Qburke thing reminds me of the movie "out cold"
> 
> The comments of the owner seem like they could have happened easily by someone who is in charge.
> I don't no if anyone has seen our governor in action but he is probably one of the most verbally challenged people i have ever heard in charge of something in my life. He has made many asinine statements as a public figure, even with a PR team he still can't help himself. i can imagine an owner of a private company doing alot worse.



I'm really having a hard time not commenting on Shumlin or his land deals, lack of understanding of conflict of interest rules, stupid comments, inability to listen to other POVs, and basically ruining the state.  But I can't talk politics...oops...too late.  :roll:

As to Burke, sounds like Bill did intervene.  He's probably :roll: as well since he probably was not in a position to question his deep pocketed partner on this call.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2013)

Happy to see Bill stepping in.  How could he not given recent developments? Jay is the "mothership" and it's Bill's baby.  Negativity surrounding Burke could be harmful to Jay ultimately.  

Hopefully the damage control extends beyond lip service to local media.  *crosses fingers*


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm really having a hard time not commenting on Shumlin or his land deals, lack of understanding of conflict of interest rules, stupid comments, *inability to listen to other POVs,* and basically ruining the state.  But I can't talk politics...oops...too late.  :roll:
> 
> As to Burke, sounds like Bill did intervene.  He's probably :roll: as well since he probably was not in a position to question his deep pocketed partner on this call.




A skill we can could all use a little work on. Little Q should use this as a wake up call, he is gonna have one heck of hole to dig out of now that the grudge has been firmly implanted. Action still speaks louder IMO.


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## oldtimer (Dec 23, 2013)

*This weekend's Burke report*

Had guests up Saturday & parked initially at the base lodge since we had beginners with us.  Lower chair not running for a couple of hours.  So we moved up to the mid Burke.

1) no tickets there.  Had to go back to the base.   Still no lower chair.  We drive back up.

2) Friends wife stepped in a CLOSSAL puddle in front of the mid Burke.  Why?  because both groomers were parked right where the ski racks normally are.  You had to go around them to get into the building.  Sadly there was a deep and wide puddle there that many, many walked in.   Does "world class" customer service really involve being too cheap to buy a couple more extension chords so the grooming equipment isn't part of an obstacle course to get into the lodge?  I understand that they don''t want to drive them trough the mud back to the maintenance area every night in early season, but they used to at least park them away from the building.

3) Willoughby trail (only way off the top) skied nicely.  By the time we made one run the lower chair was back open so we picked up the beginner and skied down.  Snow on most of the trails down there was thin but adequate.  J-bar is NOT a beginner area-  they have built terrain park features on the beginner slope and something like a halfpipe below the magic carpet?  I am not sure what that was but the magic carpet was not running anyway.

4)  J-bar hill is a disaster and NOT SAFE for beginners.  There is not enough room beside the terrain features for a beginner to ski.  There is only a narrow flat strip that intermediate skiers can navigate happily, but not my friend's wife who needs a wide area for her big traverse technique.  ALSO, when we were there, they were loading with only one attendant at the base of the j-bar.  Since that attendant must stay by the buttons they can no longer run along and help a beginner.  This is new.  They used to be really good at chatting with the beginners and running along with them.  There will be more falls and likely people getting tangled up as they learn how to ride the lift.  If you have never had to work the bottom of a beginner's surface lift it is hard to understand how much help is needed by newbies.  I understand that they are cutting expenses, but only one person there is STUPID.  ALSO-  the only way to make any use of those terrain park like features on the j-bar hill was to get some speed coming down Bunker hill and scoot through them.  Do we really need that in the exact space I had a first time skier?  I do not blame the folks who came in with speed as it was the only way the snake like feature make any sense.

All in all a hill I have skied at and loved for years totally failed my friends this weekend.  This is NOT about the weather.  There was plenty of cold earlier in the year to make snow and they chose to start late- no doubt when it was more efficient. (I skied on more open terrain at Bretton Woods over Thanksgiving then Burke this weekend).   They have cut staff in areas that effect skier safety.  They made boneheaded decisions about what to do with what used to be the beginner area-   no doubt to appease the park crowd while they wait to make snow on their terrain park trail.

With the base lodge nearly empty, one of the  staff did tell a family using the upper cafeteria for brown bagging that there is a brown bag area down in the basement.  REALLY?  on a rainy day in December when the lower lift did not run for hours.  Ballsy & stupid.

Perhaps calmer heads will sort out the Kingdom trails mess, but who the hell is going to sort out the operational mess at Burke right now?   Q2 has been lecturing the staff about delivering great customer service and doing more with less.  The staff has NO CHANCE given what I saw this week.  These are not minor operational glitches-  This is a total lack of understanding of customer service and inexperience.   They need HELP, now.

We left early-  very, very sad.


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## Smellytele (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow Oldtimer that doesn't sound good. hopefully they work the bugs out


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2013)

Not enough staff for the J Bar; insisting that folks eat in the basement; having a terrain park on your beginner trail.  Awesome, just awesome.  I'd be going nuts too.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 23, 2013)

I heard the news about Stenger this morning. This is encouraging  !  Bill knows what it takes to run a recreation based resort. I know his focus has been on EB-5 recruiting recently so he may not have realized that the smoldering fire in East Burke was about to become an inferno. As stated earlier, Burke is a large part of the entire EB-5 initiative that Bill has been tirelessly promoting and building. A bad situation like the one Ary has created at Burke could very well lead potential investors to pull their money, or go elsewhere to invest. Now that Bill knows how bad things are, I’m sure steps will be taken to rebuild the bridges.

 I also heard from inside sources earlier this weekend that staff morale was low at Burke (surprise). As an example, the lift attendant positions had been cut back (already a pretty barebones group). Then to further make a thankless job even less fun, apparently Ary even suggested they not get employee ski passes :-o. He finally relented and let them have passes in the end. But that is another good example that this guy has no idea what he is doing.


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## Nick (Dec 23, 2013)

DJAK said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/22/q-burke-kingdom-trails-mend/
> 
> A steady, experienced hand has taken the rudder, if only for a moment. All they need to do now (an opinion) is accept that naming the place after themselves while inserting the chosen one as President was not the best way to be welcomed or taken seriously. My guess is either the pre-Q is silently phased out (to buy back some credibility - it's like dragging an anchor of ridiculousness) and/or Q2 is reassigned to a role more in his wheelhouse (aviation biz perhaps), of which there are many. Would be great to see the guy do well in the region and perhaps even get back into resort leadership after some time to learn.
> 
> Without that change, Bill is likely to be doing these after the fact saves more than once.



Was just reading this article and came to post it. Thanks for sharing. 

In the comments is a post by the Kingdom Trail Association "staff and directors". 



> Dear Kingdom Trails Supporters,Would like to thank everybody who has voiced their support, concern, and willingness to help out over the past few days. Few organizations enjoy such a demonstrative, loyal membership. For that we feel truly thankful and humbled.
> In regards to some of the comments that we’ve seen online in the past few days, we want to put a plug in for our community, many of whom include our friends who work at the mountain. The employees and management of QBurke Mountain Resort are a big part of our community here. We have, in most cases, worked with these folks for years. They’re our neighbors, friends, co-workers, and family members. While we respect your decisions in terms of voting with your wallet, we want you to know that everyone in this community, including Kingdom Trails, would feel the impact if you choose to enjoy your outdoor recreation- including skiing and snowboarding- elsewhere. Please don’t let the events of the past few days change your plans for the winter. We ski at and ride Burke, and plan on continuing to do so.
> We also want to assure our users that cooler heads will prevail. Interested parties have reached out and stated that they would like to seek a resolution to our current situation. We are encouraged by the news, and look forward to a conversation that explores any future collaborations with QBurke that would best serve our community, our users, and our organizations.
> We wish you all a happy holiday season, and hope to see you at the KT Nordic Adventure Center on Darling Hill soon.
> ...


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## Nick (Dec 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That article confirmed that the Email that surfaced on that bike site and that FTN posted was in fact legit.  All I can say is wow.  In my years on AZ and in skiing in general I have never seen anything that even remotely comes close to the shear arrogance there.  I was hoping that someone would admit it was a hoax, but the fact that a CEO sent that Email to a guest is just completely unreal.



I agree. It was so bad that I was pretty much 99.9% sure it was a fake.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 23, 2013)

it was clear he didn't know what he was doing from the news interviews, he has no past experience in the field. Classic bottom line gazer.

More sad is the fact he has remained silent through this whole debacle, allowing Bill to step in, furthering his distance from the community. How the hell is he going to manage it when it gets even more complex. He will be moving on if he can't manage the basics of communication.

Hang in there Burke. Your more than the Q and have outlasted stranger figures. I think the same should go for those who love to ski it too.


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## DJAK (Dec 23, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> it was clear he didn't know what he was doing from the news interviews, he has no past experience in the field. Classic bottom line gazer.
> 
> More sad is the fact he has remained silent through this whole debacle, allowing Bill to step in, furthering his distance from the community. How the hell is he going to manage it when it gets even more complex. He will be moving on if he can't manage the basics of communication.
> 
> Hang in there Burke. Your more than the Q and have outlasted stranger figures. I think the same should go for those who love to ski it too.



Well put.

Things you can do: Buy a ski area and put your son in charge without qualifications. 
Things you can't do: Buy a ski area and put your son in charge without qualifications and expect it to go well. 

Adding a typo in front of the ski area to draw more attention to that oddity only makes the issue worse.

Fixable problems though and ones we should not overly celebrate when they occur. The body of work by the Quiros family has bought them a chance to goof up once in a while. Here's to hoping.


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## Tin (Dec 23, 2013)

I put a nice post on their FB page and got this....

http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/22/q-burke-kingdom-trails-mend/


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 23, 2013)

Tin said:


> I put a nice post on their FB page and got this....
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/22/q-burke-kingdom-trails-mend/


I pretty sure there are some serious discussions going on in the main office right now. Right now the train is completely off the tracks and the bridges are out. It is likely going to take some big changes to get everything put back together (not just fixing the relationship with KT). I wonder if Ary realizes that his attempt to save some $ has likely ended up costing them $$$.


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## billski (Dec 23, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I pretty sure there are some serious discussions going on in the main office right now. Right now the train is completely off the tracks and the bridges are out. It is likely going to take some big changes to get everything put back together (not just fixing the relationship with KT). I wonder if Ary realizes that his attempt to save some $ has likely ended up costing them $$$.



The timing couldn't be worse.  Here we are, coming into one of the two biggest weeks of the season and they're forced into a damage control operation.  No time for a strategist.


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## Tin (Dec 23, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Had guests up Saturday & parked initially at the base lodge since we had beginners with us.  Lower chair not running for a couple of hours.  So we moved up to the mid Burke.
> 
> 1) no tickets there.  Had to go back to the base.   Still no lower chair.  We drive back up.
> 
> ...



Copy and paste this on their FB site. Would love to see their response. They have been responding to all the negative stuff.


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## oldtimer (Dec 23, 2013)

Anyone with a facebook presence has my permission.  I am not a user and do not wish to be.


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## Zand (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow... speaking of Burke's Facebook page... check out all the negativity from everybody. :-o I would've hoped that after all of this crap they've done, the management of the actual skiing experience would at least be better, but oldtimer's report is exactly what I was afraid of. What a shame.

Check out this reply on the Facebook page to a comment: "Christian,  we're less than 10 days into the first season of winter ops. Let's  maybe take a deep breath before proclaiming the coming of the  apocalypse, yeah?"

Think Hannah would've ever written something that arrogant?


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## Tin (Dec 23, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Anyone with a facebook presence has my permission.  I am not a user and do not wish to be.



Can't wait to see the response. If it does not get deleted ill be shocked.


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## Tin (Dec 23, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Anyone with a facebook presence has my permission.  I am not a user and do not wish to be.




Within 5 minutes...

 Thanks for the feedback - we know there are some issues to be worked out around here and we apologize for the experience. We've passed on the info to the appropriate folks and they are definitely taking it all into account. We're doing what we can to address these things with the resources at our disposal. If this was your particular experience, let us know and we can dig into a few of the issues with you directly.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 23, 2013)

how many days at Burke Tin?

this is sad.

We could stand to look at the folks involved in KT, and Burke Mt, the people who have gladly spent much more time and actual physical effort into making it what it is instead of all the chatter and grand standing.  If half the people who spent all this energy being pissed at a clueless, detached guy into actually trying to keep Burke alive it wouldn't even be in this mess.  Really touching how in love everyone is with Mr. Stenger, and yet its his vision that is going to transform burke into something miles away from the "heart" of Burke.  Pathetic, they build their mecca and all this pud pulling over a guy on a working vacation will be a dream, the people coming won't care your principles have been stepped upon, nor will the management as they fill the piggy bank.  Nice sentiments though, I guess winning a facebook argument counts for something in this day and age, you really got em.


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## oldtimer (Dec 23, 2013)

Here's the thing:  my friends think the place is a dump.  That cannot be undone.  Sensible grooming and lift loading on the J-bar hill they can fix and I hope they do.  But none of that change's the impression from last weekend.  Good for them for not deleting the post, but re-inventing how to run a ski area is silly.  Get some professional help & pay attention to them.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 23, 2013)

but you know better OT, its a shame the changes are screwing with the product at this point, but they're your friends, bring them back when the place is going full tilt, early season burke has never been something to write home about, hell laps on the jet at J isn't exactly something special


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2013)

Hey Tin did they correct you to say that those are "Snow Qats" parked out front?  

:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2013)

The thread that keeps on giving.  Wow.  I hope someone is reading the constructive criticism/feedback.


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## DJAK (Dec 23, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Get some professional help & pay attention to them.



They already have it. SW is THE BEST in the biz at this (change with minimal pain). Andrew is on a parallel track and is quite skilled. It's that second part that is TBD and may or may not allow for a fruitful future. Once (if) it does this all gets better fast. They have the talent. Can/will they let it lead? Fingers crossed. Might require a certain character having a change in job title. Want that character to succeed as well. Not his fault he got put into a position of poor fit. Easy fix. Fix soon please. Too many NEK'ers livelihood's at stake to wait and see based on what we've already seen.


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## oldtimer (Dec 23, 2013)

I have met Andrew and he seems well intentioned and likely is very good from his posts.  SW?  the name is not ringing a bell.



DJAK said:


> They already have it. SW is THE BEST in the biz at this (change with minimal pain). Andrew is on a parallel track and is quite skilled. It's that second part that is TBD and may or may not allow for a fruitful future. Once (if) it does this all gets better fast. They have the talent. Can/will they let it lead? Fingers crossed. Might require a certain character having a change in job title. Want that character to succeed as well. Not his fault he got put into a position of poor fit. Easy fix. Fix soon please. Too many NEK'ers livelihood's at stake to wait and see based on what we've already seen.


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## DJAK (Dec 23, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> I have met Andrew and he seems well intentioned and likely is very good from his posts.  SW?  the name is not ringing a bell.



Winner of the most NSAA marketing awards in perhaps the history of the award. Also knows the lyrics to Wharf Rat.


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## oldtimer (Dec 23, 2013)

thanks- we all have our ah daaa moments.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2013)

DJAK said:


> They already have it. SW is THE BEST in the biz at this (change with minimal pain). Andrew is on a parallel track and is quite skilled. It's that second part that is TBD and may or may not allow for a fruitful future. Once (if) it does this all gets better fast. They have the talent. Can/will they let it lead? Fingers crossed. Might require a certain character having a change in job title. Want that character to succeed as well. Not his fault he got put into a position of poor fit. Easy fix. Fix soon please. Too many NEK'ers livelihood's at stake to wait and see based on what we've already seen.



Exactly.  I think that the "certain character" would be a good airplane manufacturer manager.  

And, to sum up what's happened since the "certain character" came to town:

1.  Citing cost, he laid off 4 senior managers--the mountain manager, the "inside" retail manager, the marketing director, and the HR manager.  They collectively had several decades of service.  Several other managers and staff were let go as well.  

2.  Quietly over the summer, a new logo was unveiled on FB that had "Burke" encircled by a "Q".  After some negative feedback, the logo was changed again to a mountain with a bear and the word "Burke" encircled by a "Q".  In an interview with WCAX, Ary said that the "Q" represented his family and their desire to make their mark.  

3.  Several thousands of dollars have been spent on new signs and logos on the property.  

4.  Over the summer, Ary learned of the agreement with KT to share revenue for lift-served biking and trail access fees.  He initially said that he would not honor the agreement, despite it being in writing.  He later decided to pay the $20,000, per the contract, but said that he would not agree to such an arrangement in 2014.  That led to this firestorm, including an Email purportedly from him, in lower case, mocking the writer and even saying that:



> "the mistake is following all of you" and "kingdom trails took advantage of a weak and vulnerable organization to their benefit. now I have stopped it with great pleasure."


 


In a VTDigger article, Ary stated that cost was the issue and even implied that the previous President/manager entered into the contract while serving as a director with KT thus creating a conflict of interest.  

We can also see the many issues with operations including those that oldtimer cited (no tickets at Mid-Burke, no Sherburne Express operating, forcing guests to eat brownbag lunches in the basement of Sherburne despite the main lodge area being empty, inadequate staffing for lifts, despite improved snowmaking a start one week later than usual, etc).  I also think I read here that Ary was not going to offer season passes to staff to save money (this is a normal industry practice).  

So overall, I'd say a pretty bad start.  

And, as said, with many visible EB-5 fundraising efforts afoot for Jay, Burke, and the NEK, there is a lot of scrutiny about how well these related businesses are being run.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 23, 2013)

It's also telling that Burke Cheerleader Masskier is nowhere to be heard from on this latest firestorm.


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## the original trailboss (Dec 24, 2013)

For the past several seasons, Burke (yup, no Q here) has received awards for customer service and the area operated with "we're all working for something" approach. The customers nearly always praised Burke for its friendly staff, high level of returning employees and a great skiing product on slopes that have served, and continue to serve, some of the world's best skiers. While Burke's history made it a less than stellar business model, its character, personality, culture and history have carved out a special place in the ski world, and, slowly, very slowly, people have migrated to the ski area for what it is and for what it isn't. What many of us thought was going to be the corner-turning event for Burke (on-mountain beds) has turned out to be a 5-story double (yup, two of 'em) hotel that is so over-sized that it will dwarf everything around it, ruin the entire vista and create a parking and logistical nightmare for skiers, racers, and I'm sure, hotel guests as well. We now have a change to one of the most iconic names in the ski world (think, BMA and its world-wide tentacles) from Burke to Q Burke. We have a new power structure (team, I believe is the new term) but the team quarterback (Q) is not in the middle of the huddle on every play. We have a torn (albeit repairable) relationship between the ski area, Kingdom Trails, and the community at large. We have a beginner-heaven J-bar area that has been compromised, the very well known Dashney Mile terrain park is not open, paying customers relegated to the basement (no windows) if they brownbag. And its not even Christmas yet!


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  I think that the "certain character" would be a good airplane manufacturer manager.
> 
> And, to sum up what's happened since the "certain character" came to town:
> 
> ...




come on TB.  dig deeper.

didn't see everyone banging their drum when Ginn built the yurt for the brown baggers, or re did the tamarack, again, or even form a lynch mob when they started hacking trails, etc. Pretty thin line you designed for these guys to walk, the place is in the red year after year, has the power to drive out the DEEEP pockets of Ginn and people are pissed someone is trying to save money, what exactly did you expect?  They see the mt as hemorrhage until they get their infrastructure in place. It would be a pretty bad start too if a coop run hill couldn't afford Mc Snow(ala Magic, MRG), yet for some reason the expectations are they should just keep going on per usual when the usual was killing it. Inadequate staffing for lifts? Please, how many days have we skied there and its 3 people staring at each other while the other 3 people are skiing, if its with regard to the j bar, 99% of those riders are resting on the legs of Mom and Dad, maybe if you can't stand in front of a bar you should change your expectation level a notch or two. I'm not excited about the guy's lack of effort in communicating to us either, and obviously he doesn't have a way with words, but that is unlike everyone else in the NEK how? I suppose most NEK'rs just don't talk, so in that respect he is fitting right in.  It's gonna a be a long 5 years if this is the reaction and level of disappointment people are gonna retain. Good luck.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 24, 2013)

This is so not  good  just bad , ridiculous at all. It not a destination resort, and It sucks when your local place is being run by morons who don't get it. At least with social media it is a little harder for big business to make bad business decisions and still get bonuses and move on when the company or business fails, why should they care sorry rant over.


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## nekmuffy (Dec 24, 2013)

kingdom-tele said:


> come on TB.  dig deeper.
> 
> didn't see everyone banging their drum when Ginn built the yurt for the brown baggers, or re did the tamarack, again, or even form a lynch mob when they started hacking trails, etc. Pretty thin line you designed for these guys to walk, the place is in the red year after year, has the power to drive out the DEEEP pockets of Ginn and people are pissed someone is trying to save money, what exactly did you expect?  They see the mt as hemorrhage until they get their infrastructure in place. It would be a pretty bad start too if a coop run hill couldn't afford Mc Snow(ala Magic, MRG), yet for some reason the expectations are they should just keep going on per usual when the usual was killing it. Inadequate staffing for lifts? Please, how many days have we skied there and its 3 people staring at each other while the other 3 people are skiing, if its with regard to the j bar, 99% of those riders are resting on the legs of Mom and Dad, maybe if you can't stand in front of a bar you should change your expectation level a notch or two. I'm not excited about the guy's lack of effort in communicating to us either, and obviously he doesn't have a way with words, but that is unlike everyone else in the NEK how? I suppose most NEK'rs just don't talk, so in that respect he is fitting right in.  It's gonna a be a long 5 years if this is the reaction and level of disappointment people are gonna retain. Good luck.



Whoa tele-dude. I don't think anyone expected business as usual.  Once I again, I will state that we all want Burke to thrive.  I actually haven't heard that much complaining about the hotel.  Most folks who have worked in the ski area business, and that includes a lot of locals, understand what it will likely take to make Burke viable.  As for Ginn...Some of us even thought the yurt was a kind of cool.  And the tamarack actually celebrates the line of tamaracks on mtn road that represent a unique natural community.  And Ginn employed a very competent general manager.  The problem has been Ary.  At first most folks thought and hoped he didn't have that much power... but he did (hopefully past tense).  In addition there were many other examples of him attempting to take advantage of locals in other business.  It is so ironic that he claims KT tried to take advantage of Burke Mountain.  And I believe that what worries most of us is not the attempts to turn a business profitable but that arrogance and ignorance are certainly not the traits to make that happen.  While many of us are thankful for the support of those from afar, it is worrisome that these folks are threatening not to come to our ski area where we work and hope to play for generations to come.  So before you accuse us of cutting off our nose to spite our face, give us a little more credit.  Ary needs to go.  Sensible business practice does not.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 24, 2013)

nekmuffy said:


> Whoa tele-dude. I don't think anyone expected business as usual.  Once I again, I will state that we all want Burke to thrive.  I actually haven't heard that much complaining about the hotel.  Most folks who have worked in the ski area business, and that includes a lot of locals, understand what it will likely take to make Burke viable.  As for Ginn...Some of us even thought the yurt was a kind of cool.  And the tamarack actually celebrates the line of tamaracks on mtn road that represent a unique natural community.  And Ginn employed a very competent general manager.  The problem has been Ary.  At first most folks thought and hoped he didn't have that much power... but he did (hopefully past tense).  In addition there were many other examples of him attempting to take advantage of locals in other business.  It is so ironic that he claims KT tried to take advantage of Burke Mountain.  And I believe that what worries most of us is not the attempts to turn a business profitable but that arrogance and ignorance are certainly not the traits to make that happen.  While many of us are thankful for the support of those from afar, it is worrisome that these folks are threatening not to come to our ski area where we work and hope to play for generations to come.  So before you accuse us of cutting off our nose to spite our face, give us a little more credit.  Ary needs to go.  Sensible business practice does not.



Well said! 
Bill Stenger taking charge may not be the best solution, as he has his agenda, but it is a lot better scenario that what Ary has brought to the table.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 24, 2013)

Well said.  With any luck he does move on and is replaced by someone who gets the community or at least seems to try to, or maybe he comes around.  Either way, arrogance and ignorance is a two way street.  The whole NEK project takes some level of arrogance don't you think? Where does it become beneficial arrogance vs harmful. While AQ ceretainly is displaying some deep levels of ignorance, how much do we know about the details of running any of these projects, certainly we assume some of the ignorance. The only way to combat that is through communication, adn if both parties are deciding to close their eyes and stick there fingers in their ears when the other speaks, who's more at fault? People will either come or not, just as the people who left Jay have been replaced with hockey tourney's and waterpark patrons, the people who leave burke will be replaced by indoor mt bikers, tennis teams, and diver's right?  The sentiment that our region can change and remain the same all at once is a matter of perception, which is our own.


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## oldtimer (Dec 24, 2013)

Tele-   let us agree that they have gotten off to a rough start.  I take your point that change is inevitable.  It is also painfully obvious that this management team thinks operational losses are to be avoided at all costs.  We have seen many outfits come in with big plans and throw down lots of $ in the first year or 2.  Ginn redid the base, built lifts and had staff and volunteers as ski valets.  Andy Holmes before them through lotsa dough into snow making (thank you Andy).  But this crew seems to be either under-capitalized or have no vision that they are in a customer service business.

My concerns looking forward are not more people and the ugly hotels.  My concerns are around keeping the hill running.

Supposing that they are not under-capitalized, if they waiting for the hotels and then plan to start a customer service charm offensive they are doomed to failure.  Good reputations are made year in and year out- they are earned.  Bad reputations can be made quickly and they are hard to undo.  This is not a myth.  There are countless B-school studies of companies that had been market leaders only to have failed after a bad CEO or some event that was not managed well.  I am not sure where they think the guests to fill these beds are coming from, but they need to have a great product to have them come more than once.  If they want a great product they need to start working on it NOW.  If they are not prepared for operational losses to help build a brand how can they possibly expect hotels to help?  In case you haven't noticed, there is a lot of competition out there.  My friends don't flock to an area with a suspect product because they like the fact that the company scrapes out a break-even operational existence every year, or that management has figured out how to brow beat the staff into "doing more with less".  They go because what is under foot is as good as it can be given the weather.  They go because the staff is GENUINELY interested in providing good service (this requires that the staff feels valued).  They go because the skiing product has the mix of terrain and safety that meets their needs.  Building a brand takes time and money.  If they do not invest in that (i.e. endure losses while building out the infrastructure) then there will be lotsa empty hotel rooms and the losses involved with those will make the 1/4 million a year Burke loses look like chump change.

Alternatively, perhaps this group is under-capitalized.  If they play by the rules this doesn't change with EB-5 money.

In my long winded way, what I am trying to say is that I am not unhappy about a company trying to change the mountain to draw more visitors and to make it viable.  "The man" coming in and upsetting the community to make a buck is not what the current posts are all about.

When Stenger and Q Sr stepped forward I thought they had a plan that seemed to make sense and apparently a group that had the resources to pull it off.  In the cold light of day they are acting like another imposter.  We all knew the ski valet's were not Burke.  We also know going out of your way to antagonize the community, beating on the staff, and providing a terrible product is not a recipe for success.   Our choice set is to stand by and watch the train wreck or say something.  I have chosen the latter.


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## kingdom-tele (Dec 24, 2013)

I can agree with all that OT.  I sincerely hope it all gets better. I have unfortunately lost faith in the ideals our local business men are making reality.  But realizing there is no stopping it your either left looking at the negatives at the expense of the real reasons a place means something to you, I have come to realize the infrastructure and money talk is as good as smoke and mirrors, the people, the place, the experience are above it all. I suppose I am only trying to inject a positive spin in what is aan otherwise sad turn events.  I will stop as it has nothing to do with any of this.

Best of luck to the employees at Burke.

Happy Holidays and happy turns everyone.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 24, 2013)

Tele--my focus was only on this regime and what OT and others had observed.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2013)

Why is it so damn hard to just apologize?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2013)

Sorry I can't get the text to work


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## billski (Dec 28, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Why is it so damn hard to just apologize?


 ego?


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## billski (Dec 28, 2013)

Here you go

View attachment 9982

see?  I'm good for something, maybe?


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## Edd (Dec 28, 2013)

billski said:


> Here you go
> 
> View attachment 9982
> 
> see?  I'm good for something, maybe?



Can't see whatever that is. I'm using the AZ app.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2013)

Edd said:


> Can't see whatever that is. I'm using the AZ app.



I could see the first part....it was what I was trying to post, which is an "apology" letter to the season passholders that turned into a sort of an apology, talking about how he was in the army and knows how to play with a team, how the mountain has failed the last 30 years, and more reasons why he was "right" in doing what he did.  :blink:  If someone can post it that would be great.

I think that plane factory needs him more.


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## twinplanx (Dec 29, 2013)

Is there a link to the original message severing ties with Kingdom Trails somewhere? Lots of digging through a thread with almost 80 pages... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Is there a link to the original message severing ties with Kingdom Trails somewhere? Lots of digging through a thread with almost 80 pages...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/18/burke-resort-cuts-ties-mountain-biking-trails-network/


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## Zand (Dec 29, 2013)

I was curious how things were going up there expansion-wise for Christmas week, so I checked the snow report and they STILL only have ONE TRAIL open from the top. After one of the coldest Decembers in recent history at one of the coldest mountains in New England. WTF IS GOING ON UP THERE?!? I know their snowmaking is not THAT weak. Quiros needs to be driven out of town NOW... these operations are absolutely destroying the mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2013)

Zand said:


> I was curious how things were going up there expansion-wise for Christmas week, so I checked the snow report and they STILL only have ONE TRAIL open from the top. After one of the coldest Decembers in recent history at one of the coldest mountains in New England. WTF IS GOING ON UP THERE?!? I know their snowmaking is not THAT weak. Quiros needs to be driven out of town NOW... these operations are absolutely destroying the mountain.



Can anyone up there confirm if they are making snow?


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## twinplanx (Dec 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Can anyone up there confirm if they are making snow?



...and please feel free to share your kids ski school experience as well ;-) 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## Boardguy (Dec 29, 2013)

We got here Thurs. night and I have not seen any snowmaking. Today was in the 30s. but the but Fri. and Sat. were colder. Maybe not cold enough but to my knowledge no guns going. The ski school appears to have been very busy with lots of lessons going on. Lots of little guys seeming to be having fun. I don't have children in ski school so can't comment on the experience. There sure are a lot of instuctors and students both in groups and private lessons out on the hill. The banked turn thingy off to the side of the top of the J-bar is very popular with the kids going through it. The J-bar is running again now too.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> ...and please feel free to share your kids ski school experience as well ;-)
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



Yeah, exactly!  :lol:


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## Boardguy (Dec 29, 2013)

If you guys are alluding to the "other" thread I can say that the ski school kids at Burke were getting way more than two runs in. No I did not have kids in lessons but I am observant. If I had a child in lessons I would be even more observant.


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## SKI-3PO (Dec 29, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> ...and please feel free to share your kids ski school experience as well ;-)
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



And if you're up there and not happy with the number of trails open, you probably should talk to someone to turn on some more guns for you.


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## twinplanx (Dec 29, 2013)

SKI-3PO said:


> And if you're up there and not happy with the number of trails open, you probably should talk to someone to turn on some more guns for you.



Yes. That ary sounds like a reasonable guy.  Just be sure to add a "Q" to the prefix of every third word in your request lol 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## Quietman (Dec 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Can anyone up there confirm if they are making snow?



This is from Andrew's blog, posted today, quoting the Director of Mountain Ops.

"_In terms of strategy for this year, early on in the snowmaking season we made a decision to go for quality terrain rather than quantity of terrain. In the past, we would make the minimum amount of snow on a trail and then move on to another so that we could get the most amount of terrain open as quickly as possible. Based on my experience, if we would have executed that older strategy this year and not spent so much time on the trails we did, it's highly likely that we would have even less terrain open than we do now due to last week's weather event. Man, that thing was a snow killer - three days of heavy rain, warm temps and fog. From my past experience, that would've basically destroyed a thinly covered trail - I mean, you saw what happened to all the natural snow stuff that was open prior to it. The fact that we spent extra time on trails like Upper and Lower Willoughby is what I think allowed us to weather that storm (pardon the pun). 
Believe me when I say that unless there's an issue with our system, we're making snow somewhere. We've got the lower mountain mostly done, we've created a terrain based learning area for the Snow Sports crew and we just finished up Dashney so that they were able to get a park built for the holidays. Now we're up to Open Slope, finishing up there and moving up to the Dippers and Carriage Road so we can get another route down from the Summit. Then, it'd be kinda nice if Mother Nature gave us a little boost, which it looks like we might get here soon.   
If anyone asks, let them know that our snowmaking team is working as hard as they can to provide a quality product for everyone. They work a lot of long, cold nights to get this place going."_


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2013)

How would he know what they did last season since he wasn't there?


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## Quietman (Dec 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> How would he know what they did last season since he wasn't there?



He is quoting the Director of Mountain Ops, Jason Lefebvre. "Jason's got years and years of experience here at Burke and knows his stuff"

The complete blog article is *Here*


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2013)

Quietman said:


> He is quoting the Director of Mountain Ops, Jason Lefebvre. "Jason's got years and years of experience here at Burke and knows his stuff"
> 
> The complete blog article is *Here*



Ah, that is helpful.  Thanks,


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## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 30, 2013)

Did anyone else notice that the follow-up article from Digger indicates that Stenger is a "co-owner" of QBurke?  Sounds like it isn't wholly owned by the Quiros family.  Anyone actually know what the ownership structure looks like?  Are we sure the investors that are being courted are for separate stand alone entities and not for part ownership in QBurke?  

I only ask because the ownership structure helps answer the question on how to exert pressure to get the change from QBurke that you are looking to achieve  (or whether a change of course is even possible).


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2013)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Did anyone else notice that the follow-up article from Digger indicates that Stenger is a "co-owner" of QBurke?  Sounds like it isn't wholly owned by the Quiros family.  Anyone actually know what the ownership structure looks like?  Are we sure the investors that are being courted are for separate stand alone entities and not for part ownership in QBurke?
> 
> I only ask because the ownership structure helps answer the question on how to exert pressure to get the change from QBurke that you are looking to achieve  (or whether a change of course is even possible).



My (local) sources say that Bill is a minority owner at best.  Minority as in less than 10%.


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## Zand (Dec 31, 2013)

Quietman said:


> This is from Andrew's blog, posted today, quoting the Director of Mountain Ops.
> 
> "_In terms of strategy for this year, early on in the snowmaking season we made a decision to go for quality terrain rather than quantity of terrain. In the past, we would make the minimum amount of snow on a trail and then move on to another so that we could get the most amount of terrain open as quickly as possible. Based on my experience, if we would have executed that older strategy this year and not spent so much time on the trails we did, it's highly likely that we would have even less terrain open than we do now due to last week's weather event. Man, that thing was a snow killer - three days of heavy rain, warm temps and fog. From my past experience, that would've basically destroyed a thinly covered trail - I mean, you saw what happened to all the natural snow stuff that was open prior to it. The fact that we spent extra time on trails like Upper and Lower Willoughby is what I think allowed us to weather that storm (pardon the pun).
> Believe me when I say that unless there's an issue with our system, we're making snow somewhere. We've got the lower mountain mostly done, we've created a terrain based learning area for the Snow Sports crew and we just finished up Dashney so that they were able to get a park built for the holidays. Now we're up to Open Slope, finishing up there and moving up to the Dippers and Carriage Road so we can get another route down from the Summit. Then, it'd be kinda nice if Mother Nature gave us a little boost, which it looks like we might get here soon.
> If anyone asks, let them know that our snowmaking team is working as hard as they can to provide a quality product for everyone. They work a lot of long, cold nights to get this place going."_



Oh come on... Wachusett went into that warmup with 100% of snowmaking terrain open and came out with snowmaking terrain 100% open. 3 days in the 60s followed by 1.5" of rain. It doesn't take 40 freaking days of snowmaking to cover a trail in "quality" snow, even with Burke's snowmaking. God, this BS is worse than Killington's when Powdr took over.


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 5, 2014)

*No improvemnt in sight*

Painful to be at Burke these days.  The lack of snow making is mind boggling.  They have managed to open Carraige Road and the Dippers from Toll Road down.  Pretty good cover on the lower part of Dippers, but to get there you have 2 choices:  Carriage road-   decent snow-making cover, but very narrow in spots and skied off quickly.  Good skiers practicing kinetic slalom around novices who have no real choice if they want to go to Dipper unless they pick option 2:  Toll road.  Plenty of black top (yes, this is the summit road) showing.  This morning the ski patrol shoveled snow onto about 100 yards of black top, right under the chair in order to make it passable.  The upper section of the Dippers has piles of snow at the very top and the first Toll Road cross, but nothing in between.  But, the new administration has declared victory and there was NO SNOW-MAKING after they got Carriage Road/Dippers open on Thursday.  Perhaps not cold enough?  Perhaps too cold?  Perhaps to cheap to make snow?

I could go on and on, but season pass holders don't need a damned apology for stupid decisions w/r/t Kingdom trails.  They do not need Ary to drive off heroically to New Jersey for a part so the J-Bar could run a day sooner over Christmas week.

Season pass holders paid money to ski.  That product is not available.  The snow-making effort has sucked.  Andrew can say what he wants about quality over quantity but there have been way, way too many cold days and nights in East Burke when the single compressor they are running this season as been silent.

pass holders and day ticket buyers DO NOT pay money to have more staff then ever scanning tickets, less staff on the lifts and NO F'ing snow.

Upper Dipper?, Upper foxes?, Little Dipper?, Upper Warren's?  Add some rain to upper Willoughby and it will be just as icy as ever.  Some would say that some snow making could help there.

If Anyone has Bill Stenger's ear it is time to send in the cavalry, because this sucks.  Or maybe they really are trying to drive the old girl under and take the lifts up to Jay?

Sad.


----------



## canobie#1 (Jan 5, 2014)

They're too focused on "QBurke".  That new CEO sucks, Burke is going down just as fast as jay.


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## oldtimer (Jan 5, 2014)

At least they have some snow at Jay.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2014)

And to top it all off, local school programs are starting this week.  In full disclosure, this was how I learned to ski, now 24 years ago.  Burke has hundreds of local school kids from many needy families come up for very discounted ski lessons and half-day skiing and riding with some cheap rentals...they do it for midweeks between January and March.  It is a PR thing and a way to get good will.  Well,  Q2 has increased the prices on rentals (many can barely afford to do the program) and they are making the teachers/chaperones wait downstairs in that bag lunch area that they just made instead of the (empty) main lodge floor.  

History has shown that resorts who make "brown baggers" eat in a separate place don't keep that policy for long....

Sad to hear so many bad things coming from Burke these days.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2014)

And as for snowmaking, Christmas was probably a loss, but they need to gear up for the next two big periods, which is MLK weekend and President's Week.  They CAN'T lose those weeks.


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## oldtimer (Jan 5, 2014)

Were I a chaperone on ANY day they would have to call the Sheriff to get me away from the windows in the base lodge and move into the basement.

What is wrong with these people?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2014)

canobie#1 said:


> Burke is going down just as fast as jay.



huh?  Jay is going down fast?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2014)

And here's the lowdown from what I can see...

Jay has 63 trails with active snowmaking under the Flyer.

Burke has 17 trails with thin cover and no snowmaking.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, I'm going to Burke tomorrow. Icy WROD or not. I'm already depressed about the whole situation so it can't get any worse. Even with 30mph winds.


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## Edd (Jan 6, 2014)

Whoa, I did not know about the winds tomorrow. At those temps, that's a problem.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 6, 2014)

Yep, the wind is what is keeping me from Jay tomorrow (lifts will likely be on hold). Burke's lifts don't typically get closed by WNW winds.

NOAA forecast for Burke tonight:


> A 30 percent chance of snow showers, mainly between midnight and 2am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around -7. Wind chill values as low as -31. Windy, with a west wind around 31 mph. New snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.


 
Tomorrow (Tuesday):


> A 30 percent chance of snow showers, mainly between 1pm and 2pm. Cloudy and cold, with a high near -3. Wind chill values as low as -38. Windy, with a west wind 32 to 37 mph. New snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.


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## Edd (Jan 6, 2014)

Dude, you're going to ski with those wind chills?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 6, 2014)

Yep 8). I go skiing every year on my birthday.


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## billski (Jan 6, 2014)

I thought there were deep pockets over in Troy willing to make investments....  maybe operational costs (snowmaking) don't count but new signs can be capitalized?

Sounds like time for a passholder town meeting with Mr. Q and Stenger.  That would be a showdown.


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## DJAK (Jan 6, 2014)

billski said:


> Sounds like time for a passholder town meeting with Mr. Q and Stenger.  That would be a showdown.



You won't get them in that room together. They have different visions (and completely different levels of experience) on how to operate a ski area. Stenger may have attached his (and Jay's) brand to this train. But, for now, only team Q is at the controls. Seems unsustainable, but that's TBD.


----------



## billski (Jan 6, 2014)

DJAK said:


> You won't get them in that room together. They have different visions (and completely different levels of experience) on how to operate a ski area. Stenger may have attached his (and Jay's) brand to this train. But, for now, only team Q is at the controls. Seems unsustainable, but that's TBD.


OK, then how about Q and the passholders and a security detail?
I'll bet their passholder sales will be precipitously down next year.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2014)

DJAK said:


> You won't get them in that room together. They have different visions (and completely different levels of experience) on how to operate a ski area. Stenger may have attached his (and Jay's) brand to this train. But, for now, only team Q is at the controls. Seems unsustainable, but that's TBD.



That begs the question as to why Stenger/Jay is even involved with Burke.  Doesn't seem like the partnership offers Jay any financial value.


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## oldtimer (Jan 6, 2014)

DJAK is correct.   "Operational Efficiency" is king, followed directly by "getting the data".  To confirm that they know how many people are riding the lifts and what passes they are using they have 2 employees at each chair scanning tickets and the top station employee has a clicker to count those exiting the lift.  One presumes this is so they can confirm their scan count is correct?  Counting the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind.

Q has no interest in hearing from the customers.  They are stupid jackasses who know nothing and are used to the old regime that was too nice to the customers, provided a product, and were pleasant.  In properly military fashion he is getting us used to how we should be treated.

btw-  lest anyone think I am exaggerating, I suggest riding the chair or walking around the lodges.  Folks are pissed.  Yes, a snowstorm would help, but most of Burke's customers are used to the lack of snow and happy with whatever they have, as long as the mountain is putting forth a good faith effort.  You have never met a more loyal group of customers.  And it appears that Ary has it as his mission to tell them to go to hell.  Go figure.




DJAK said:


> You won't get them in that room together. They have different visions (and completely different levels of experience) on how to operate a ski area. Stenger may have attached his (and Jay's) brand to this train. But, for now, only team Q is at the controls. Seems unsustainable, but that's TBD.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2014)

DJAK said:


> You won't get them in that room together. They have different visions (and completely different levels of experience) on how to operate a ski area. Stenger may have attached his (and Jay's) brand to this train. But, for now, only team Q is at the controls. Seems unsustainable, but that's TBD.



Agreed


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> DJAK is correct.   "Operational Efficiency" is king, followed directly by "getting the data".  To confirm that they know how many people are riding the lifts and what passes they are using they have 2 employees at each chair scanning tickets and the top station employee has a clicker to count those exiting the lift.  One presumes this is so they can confirm their scan count is correct?  Counting the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind.
> 
> Q has no interest in hearing from the customers.  They are stupid jackasses who know nothing and are used to the old regime that was too nice to the customers, provided a product, and were pleasant.  In properly military fashion he is getting us used to how we should be treated.
> 
> btw-  lest anyone think I am exaggerating, I suggest riding the chair or walking around the lodges.  Folks are pissed.  Yes, a snowstorm would help, but most of Burke's customers are used to the lack of snow and happy with whatever they have, as long as the mountain is putting forth a good faith effort.  You have never met a more loyal group of customers.  And it appears that Ary has it as his mission to tell them to go to hell.  Go figure.



Agreed


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## kingdom-tele (Jan 6, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> That begs the question as to why Stenger/Jay is even involved with Burke.  Doesn't seem like the partnership offers Jay any financial value.



the financial value is going to be built. ala JPR the skiing concerns become a secondary contributor.  

renaissance is ruffling.


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## nekmuffy (Jan 8, 2014)

Haven't posted in a while but noticed the conversation is still taking place.  My latest heartbreak of the Q debacle was learning that there is no more Trout River on tap at the Mountain.  That is the local brewery in Lyndonville.  Seriously?  My new term for any jerk is going to be Qhole.


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## oldtimer (Jan 8, 2014)

*Qhole*

Brilliant-  could get traction in the NEK.

"what a qhole"

brilliant



nekmuffy said:


> Haven't posted in a while but noticed the conversation is still taking place.  My latest heartbreak of the Q debacle was learning that there is no more Trout River on tap at the Mountain.  That is the local brewery in Lyndonville.  Seriously?  My new term for any jerk is going to be Qhole.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2014)

nekmuffy said:


> Haven't posted in a while but noticed the conversation is still taking place.  My latest heartbreak of the Q debacle was learning that there is no more Trout River on tap at the Mountain.  That is the local brewery in Lyndonville.  Seriously?  My new term for any jerk is going to be Qhole.



Wow.  What is the deal with that?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 9, 2014)

Trout River had an contract taking "too much" of a $ cut per draft?


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## farlep99 (Jan 9, 2014)

Trout river is some good beer too.  what'd they replace it with?


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## fbrissette (Jan 9, 2014)

farlep99 said:


> Trout river is some good beer too.  what'd they replace it with?



Qburke Ale.  (rebadged bud light)


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## twinplanx (Jan 9, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> Qburke Ale.  (rebadged bud light)



I hope your joking.  I'm not familiar with Trout River, but I always have at least a pint of the local beer when the situation arises. If this is true, it will certainly NOT help the Qsituation :-( 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## dlague (Jan 9, 2014)

Wow and Trout River is from Lyndonville which is right next door.  First Kingdom Trails and now Trout River.  I don't get it!


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## fbrissette (Jan 9, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> I hope your joking.  I'm not familiar with Trout River, but I always have at least a pint of the local beer when the situation arises. If this is true, it will certainly NOT help the Qsituation :-(
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



I'm joking but that would not surprise me....   Go tasteless like the rest.


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## Slow (Jan 9, 2014)

TB- As a season pass holder with two kids in the program I have solved the "brown bag area" problem. When I pull out our brown bag lunch in the middle of the lodge I buy my kids a Q-Hot Chocolate. If my kids are being real good I might even buy them a Quookie. I figure if anyone gives me a hard time I figure I am going to tell them I am drinking my Q-drink in the Q-lodge...the food is just some other stuff I brought from home.

One other quandary; I bought Judge Passes (so I can hit Jay during Feb vaca) which requires a plastic sleeve since you can't punch a hole through them. For thethree weeks since I picked up my pass I have checked with the desk (the people really are still great) every time I ski and they tell me, with a Q-smile, that the sleeves have been ordered and should be in soon. I'm surprised Arie didn't pick them up in Jersey when he got the J-bar part.  Any chance J has sleeves?  The only ones I can find in town are the arm bands (I thought about ordering 50 of them from Amazon for $10 and free shipping, taking the 2 I still need, and putting a big Q on the other 48 and giving them to the desk)

On the bright side:
1)  My wife and I dropped the kids at ski school and headed over to the Kingdom Trails, rented fat bikes for the morning, got a family season pass, and went riding for the morning. I skied the next day but my wife was back on a Fat Bike and will be doign that or snowshoing all season.  Fat Biking is FANTASTIC!!...it might even help justify a summer trip to the KTs for some mtbing!!
2)  The people around the community really are great,and
3)  The mountain staff, and season pass holders I meet on the lift, are all great people and super friendly

These are the reasons we chose Burke and why we will stay.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2014)

Nice, Slow.  

I think that they will reqonsider the Cafeteria decision...


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## whitemtn27 (Jan 9, 2014)

nekmuffy said:


> Haven't posted in a while but noticed the conversation is still taking place.  My latest heartbreak of the Q debacle was learning that there is no more Trout River on tap at the Mountain.  That is the local brewery in Lyndonville.  Seriously?  My new term for any jerk is going to be Qhole.



What about Switchback?  That gone too?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2014)

dlague said:


> Wow and Trout River is from Lyndonville which is right next door.  First Kingdom Trails and now Trout River.  I don't get it!



They are doing everything opposite of Jay...does not make sense.

That Q Plane Factory better open soon.  They need Ary's expertise....


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## bigbog (Jan 9, 2014)

Burke retirement community......just a $.01 guess with what deep pockets are trying to do.


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## billski (Jan 9, 2014)

Just wait until they start renaming the Qtrails.  :-o  And I'm probably not kidding


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2014)

bigbog said:


> Burke retirement community......just a $.01 guess with what deep pockets are trying to do.



That's most of Vermont already.  And Burke doesn't really fit that model with KT and everything.


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## WoodCore (Jan 9, 2014)

whitemtn27 said:


> What about Switchback?  That gone too?



Did you mean Qwitchback?


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## evae (Jan 9, 2014)

Can't wait to see what they will do to the NEK.


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## troy (Jan 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And here's the lowdown from what I can see...
> 
> Jay has 63 trails with active snowmaking under the Flyer.
> 
> Burke has 17 trails with thin cover and no snowmaking.



jay's yard stick says 120+ inches to the season... what a joke.  how do they get away with such blatant BS?  just sayin'


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 9, 2014)

Jay got dumped on early season. Lot of up slope systems that put down over a foot of snow. Watch a radar sometime.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2014)

evae said:


> Can't wait to see what they will do to the NEK.



You mean QNEK?


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## snoseek (Jan 9, 2014)

Qingdom


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm planning a combo trip to Cannon/Burke in late March/Early April (overnight in St J) hopefully they still have some snow then.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

This brings me to another question as I think abut my Cannon/Burke wknd. When do folks think QBurke hangs em up for the season? They show pond skimming on Sat March 29 but nothing after that. Is Pond Skimming wknd traditionally their last? Realize its a guessing game w/ new mgmt.


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## wa-loaf (Jan 10, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> I'm planning a combo trip to Cannon/Burke in late March/Early April (overnight in St J) hopefully they *get* some snow *by* then.



Fixed that for ya ...


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

Haha yeah really. Have passes paid for as part of the Fox44 card so its use or lose and late March/Early April is the best time for us to go.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> This brings me to another question as I think abut my Cannon/Burke wknd. When do folks think QBurke hangs em up for the season? They show pond skimming on Sat March 29 but nothing after that. Is Pond Skimming wknd traditionally their last? Realize its a guessing game w/ new mgmt.



Thi$ $ea$on QPond $kimming will probably be la$t weekend. There'$ no Qmoney in $pring $kiing. And I bet that they will charge Qadmi$$ion for QPond $kimming $pectator$.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

Thanks TB---realize you are being tongue in cheek but the info you provided is good----really helps me plan. I'll plan on being at Burke Sunday 3/30 to close out their season.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2014)

Historically, they would be open at least one more weekend after Pond Skimming.  But they also historically opened the first weekend in December and they didn't do that this year.  I would not bank on it this year since $$$$ is the goal...specifically bottom line.  The last few seasons there has not been much in late season at Burke.  In fact, they've moved up Pond Skimming.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 10, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> Thanks TB---realize you are being tongue in cheek but the info you provided is good----really helps me plan. I'll plan on being at Burke Sunday 3/30 to close out their season.


I'll likely be skiing one of those two days, depends on how much Qjr decides to screw with pond skimming day. Hopefully we have a stronger 2nd half of the season up here snow wise. The glades haven't been open at all yet this year (well Sasquatch was for a few days). I have seen Burke close down 100% open before.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

Sounds good----I need to make the Sat night reservation in advance as well as get coverage for my dog so having this info in advance is super helpful.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

Fairly safe to assume they would at least open that Sunday 3/30 after pond skimming on Sat? Most mtns usually close on Sundays I believe.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> Fairly safe to assume they would at least open that Sunday 3/30 after pond skimming on Sat? Most mtns usually close on Sundays I believe.



Maybe.  I'd assume so, but remember the Killington fiasco a few years back?  Q is reminding me of that.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

I may push my trip up a week----another consideration is that we'll have my son with us in the lodge (mom + dad sharing a ticket and switching off between skiing/diapers)    
I'd prefer to be w/ him in the Sherburne lodge which is more conducive/nicer layout for watching him. so need to have the lower quad running----enough snow late season dwn there.


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## xwhaler (Jan 10, 2014)

I may push my trip up a week----another consideration is that we'll have my son with us in the lodge (mom + dad sharing a ticket and switching off between skiing/diapers)    
I'd prefer to be w/ him in the Sherburne lodge which is more conducive/nicer layout for watching him. so need to have the lower quad running----enough snow late season dwn there.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2014)

He's back:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/14/community-fears-history-will-repeat-q-burke-mountain/

Some pretty inciting comments I think...including naming the Mountain's former guardian angel Don Graham and then blasting him.  And the whole Q thing IS arrogant....no way around it.  Folks know Jay for Bill Stenger and Jay itself...not Q Resorts.  Nobody has ever heard of Q Resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2014)

Another one:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/14/q-empire-man-behind-northeast-kingdoms-biggest-plan/


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## fbrissette (Jan 14, 2014)

I think the first article does a pretty good job at outlining the situation and giving both sides of the story.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I think the first article does a pretty good job at outlining the situation and giving both sides of the story.



True, but if he is that gung ho to keep it what it is, then why did they change the name right off the bat?


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but if he is that gung ho to keep it what it is, then why did they change the name right off the bat?



No contest here.  I think the name change was a terrible self-serving idea that served no greater purposes whatsoever.

The truth is that unless you're into mountain biking or a very hardcore skier, nobody knows Burke outside of Vermont.   And outside of this thread, absolutely nobody knows Q mountain resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> No contest here.  I think the name change was a terrible self-serving idea that served no greater purposes whatsoever.
> 
> The truth is that unless you're into mountain biking or a very hardcore skier, nobody knows Burke outside of Vermont.   And outside of this thread, absolutely nobody knows Q mountain resorts.



Yep.  Exactly.  The article also confirmed that Ary DID send "the infamous Email" back in December.


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## fbrissette (Jan 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.  Exactly.  The article also confirmed that Ary DID send "the infamous Email" back in December.



At this point, there was little doubt that he had indeed sent this email.  Lucky he was the boss.  Anybody else would have lost their job over this email.


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## DJAK (Jan 14, 2014)

We have officially entered the twilight zone.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2014)

At this point I think I'm going to take the KingdomTele approach and let the cards fall where they will but I still plan on getting outside and enjoying myself. 
Q Resorts has pretty much made it clear that with Ary in charge, they are taking a very hard line on the keeping the bottom line in the black. And they plan on doing it via the go it alone approach. 
IMHO you can cut back to a bare bones operation but why stick a knife into the back of the community that you admit has kept the mountain completely out of the dustbin of NELSAP? Look at Magic and MRG. Those are pretty bare bones operations that thrive on passionate involvement from their communities.
In the other direction you have Ascutney's ownership/management and look where that ended up.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2014)

I agree, FTN, that I guess they want to "go it alone", which is dumb.  I fear that we are going to see this fail as well.  Terrible.


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## trackbiker (Jan 16, 2014)

15 of 55 trails open today. Doesn't look like they made any snow last night. Planning to go there next weekend. Never been. Looks like a couple weak clippers coming through next week but no major storms. Will they have much more open by then?
Any recommendations for budget accommodations for 2 or three people with a kitchen in the area would be appreciated.


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## xwhaler (Jan 16, 2014)

http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p362573

I have stayed in this place before----owners are great and its nice/modern


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2014)

trackbiker said:


> 15 of 55 trails open today. Doesn't look like they made any snow last night. Planning to go there next weekend. Never been. Looks like a couple weak clippers coming through next week but no major storms. Will they have much more open by then?
> Any recommendations for budget accommodations for 2 or three people with a kitchen in the area would be appreciated.


I wouldn't expect many of the natural snow trails to be up by next weekend. Those little clippers aren't going to produce the foot+ of snow that is needed to get the currently bare trails skiable. Other than cold air returning, the weather models look pretty bleak for snowfall for the upcoming week. With the dry cold weather I would expect some of the snowmaking trails like Deer Run, Little Dipper, and MAYBE Upper Warrens Way to get some love. I just checked there report and they are making snow on Fox's Folly which is only takes a few hours to cover (narrow) and also means they will likely pull the hoses through the trees over to Warren's. They are also making snow on Ledges.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 17, 2014)

We'll just call this one "For Q": http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/17/kirk-dwyer-desire-set-record-straight/


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 17, 2014)

Wow... As Trailboss has hinted Mr Graham has done a lot for Burke and the earlier articles really seemed to discredit his assistance. I knew he had done a lot as well, but I had no idea it was to that extent 
Thank you sir. 
:beer:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Wow... As Trailboss has hinted Mr Graham has done a lot for Burke and the earlier articles really seemed to discredit his assistance. I knew he had done a lot as well, but I had no idea it was to that extent
> Thank you sir.
> :beer:



BMA's Headmaster (and that is BMA, not QBMA, thank you) wrote an excellent reply piece that sets the record straight and goes into great detail as to what Burke's guardian angel, Don Graham, has done for the mountain.  I've met Don several times and I can tell you that he is a very modest and humble man with means.  The last thing he'd want to do is to burn Burke down or to get out front and toot his horn.  I am stunned that after the first PR disaster last month Q Sr said the vicious things that he said.  Andrew and Steve better rein these guys in because they won't be in the hospitality business long doing and saying hostile things such as this (not to mention it was complete libel).

http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/17/kirk-dwyer-desire-set-record-straight/


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## canobie#1 (Jan 19, 2014)

Wow, Quiros sucks A$$!!!! What a dbag.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2014)

I think Dennis Rodman might have better PR skills than family Q


----------



## zeke (Jan 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> We'll just call this one "For Q": http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/17/kirk-dwyer-desire-set-record-straight/



looks like the apple didn't fall far from the arrogant asshole tree


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## kingdom-tele (Jan 19, 2014)

What an incredible contrast. The behind the seen, humble, dedicated influence of one well off man compared to the other style on display.  I would say one of those represents what the NEK is all about more than the other.  The other could take a look at the humility from the past and maybe learn something.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2014)

What a $hit show....


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## zeke (Jan 20, 2014)

more importantly though, how was the skiing over the MLK weekend? anyone there?


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## DJAK (Jan 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Andrew and Steve better rein these guys in because they won't be in the hospitality business long doing and saying hostile things such as this.



You keep acting like either of those guys have influence over the actions of the owners.. If they did likely none of this would be transpiring as it has. Perhaps the Q ship can ride out the self inflicted storms. Hoping so for all.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2014)

DJAK said:


> You keep acting like either of those guys have influence over the actions of the owners.. If they did likely none of this would be transpiring as it has. Perhaps the Q ship can ride out the self inflicted storms. Hoping so for all.



That's true...I guess I am hoping (something) can be done.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 20, 2014)

I just started following this... unbelievable they had the nerve to change the name of Burke to Q Burke. I thought this was a joke.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2014)

bdfreetuna said:


> I just started following this... unbelievable they had the nerve to change the name of Burke to Q Burke. I thought this was a joke.
> 
> View attachment 10480



That's just the tip of the iceberg.....


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## Severance (Jan 20, 2014)

i went to burke for the first time last year with a buddy of mine. we both really enjoyed the terrain, in particular the glades. although the flat trail after that is bruuutally long for snowboarders, it was still worth it to hit those trails. i had read at one time they were going to put a lift over there and that would've solved it for me. they also had fun easier glades down on the lower mtn that had been shaped into a sort of slopestyle course from all the rides through all season. it was a really fun trip and we both had that in our top 3 for resorts last year. 

we've been wanting to go back but between the awful season conditions and the shit show this guy has brought them, im not sure when its going to happen, if at all this year. its really a shame and im hoping this is just a temporary detour from what makes that place unique. since it was my only visit, i didnt really experience the deeper things about the people and the history of the mtn but from what ive read, there is/was a lot of good people there.

also this guy is 36. he was a kid when q-bert came out. there is *no excuse* for that name.


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## oldtimer (Jan 21, 2014)

*MLK Weekend skiing*

The skiing got better as the weekend went on.  Saturday was sunny and comfortable.  As always Burke was well groomed-  it got skied off by the end of the day, but a nice day.  On and off snow on Sunday and Monday-  some non snow-making terrain skied nicely by Monday and the trails with man-made skied very well with pow on top-  right through to the closing bell.  They have guns blasting on Little Dipper and Ledges with some touch-up elsewhere.

There were some people around but certainly not as crowded as other years on MLK weekend.


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## yeggous (Jan 21, 2014)

I was there for the first time ever on Saturday. My domestic dictator and I were very impressed. The customer service was exceptional. Conditions were as good as could be expected. Crowds were light and lift lines were very short. We will certainly return.

One of the local shops had a demo day so we both tried out some skis. Pick of the day was the K2 Rictor 82 xti on the hardpack.


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## crank (Jan 21, 2014)

Just got an email from NEMBA announcing NEMBAFest this June is moving from Q Burke to the top of darling Hill.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2014)

crank said:


> Just got an email from NEMBA announcing NEMBAFest this June is moving from Q Burke to the top of darling Hill.



Bummer.  Not the first major event to leave Burke Mountain. The Chamber of Commerce winter dinner event was moved.  

Q is #winning.


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## fbrissette (Jan 21, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Bummer.  Not the first major event to leave Burke Mountain. The Chamber of Commerce winter dinner event was moved.
> .


They are reaping what they sowed.


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## snoseek (Jan 21, 2014)

crank said:


> Just got an email from NEMBA announcing NEMBAFest this June is moving from Q Burke to the top of darling Hill.


This location actually seems better to me anyhow, right at the center of the trail system.


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## crank (Jan 22, 2014)

I agree it will be better to be right at the trails.  Easier to gather groups together for the lead rides.  It was nice to have the lodge facilities available though.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2014)

A new article today in the Caledonian Record has Q Sr. walking back the sh^& he said about Don Graham and previous owners.  This is truly a PR disaster of epic proportions.  I will see if VT Digger runs the article because the CR one is behind a paywall.....


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## dlague (Jan 23, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> A new article today in the Caledonian Record has Q Sr. walking back the sh^& he said about Don Graham and previous owners.  This is truly a PR disaster of epic proportions.  I will see if VT Digger runs the article because the CR one is behind a paywall.....



wow I have never seen anyone refer to the Caledonian Record - thats cool!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2014)

Here's the article:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/23/stenger-apologizes-quiros-remarks-previous-burke-owner/

Also attached to the article is an "apology" that they sent to Don Graham.  Note how there is no simple apology for saying something stupid.  I guess it would have been too much to simply say, "I misspoke.  I'm so sorry."  I think it is time for the Q's to take a step back and hire someone who is diplomatic to run Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks for posting that. It seems the Quiros’ kind of just jumped into this head first and figured they could just kind of "fix the mountain" without really understanding its history. 
How in the world did the not know some of this history? 



> “I spoke to his [Ariel Quiros'] son Ary Jr. today and I had a really nice conversation with him and he said that his father was sincerely apologetic and was very respectful after learning more about Don Graham’s involvement in Burke Mountain,” said Dwyer.


 
I think this shows how much Bill Stenger has not been involved with laying out a management plan for Burke. I’m sure a lot of these topics would have come up and he could have set the record straight before regrettable comments were publicly made. 

And I keep coming back to the “Envisioning” panel that I was on late last winter. Both of the Quiros’ were there. Did they listen to ANYTHING that the invitees were saying? An undertone of community and passionate history was woven into almost everything anyone said.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> And I keep coming back to the “Envisioning” panel that I was on late last winter. Both of the Quiros’ were there. Did they listen to ANYTHING that the invitees were saying? An undertone of community and passionate history was woven into almost everything anyone said.



Why listen to the "little people"?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2014)

So I was on the chairlift at Deer Valley today (with Sundance the tool factor was pretty high unfortunately).  Rode up with one guy who got talking to me.  I mentioned Burke as my home mountain and he replied.  

"Oh yes, my friend just bought that place."

I diplomatically advised him to get better friends.


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## twinplanx (Jan 25, 2014)

Wow I would love an audio replay of that conversation! I will settle for the highlights though... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 25, 2014)

You should've spilled the beans on the entire story...

Also LOL at the "tool factor" comment

sent from AlpineZone Mobile App


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So I was on the chairlift at Deer Valley today (with Sundance the tool factor was pretty high unfortunately).  Rode up with one guy who got talking to me.  I mentioned Burke as my home mountain and he replied.
> 
> "Oh yes, my friend just bought that place."
> 
> I diplomatically advised him to get better friends.



Hmm Deer Valley and friend of Q  - who would have thought?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Wow I would love an audio replay of that conversation! I will settle for the highlights though...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



We were about to get off.  You don't know how disappointed I was that I could not fill him in even more.  I doubt that he would have understood or even told Q about what I said.  



jimmywilson69 said:


> You should've spilled the beans on the entire story...
> 
> Also LOL at the "tool factor" comment
> 
> sent from AlpineZone Mobile App



I love Deer Valley, but in my six days skiing there in three years this was the worst in terms of snow and tools.  I felt that I was in the Craftsman section.  It reminded me of holiday crap at Sugarbush...folks deciding at the last second "not" to ride up the lift with you, folks blocking lift queues, zipping in front of you without looking, ignoring you on the lifts, saying stupid things like "man, those are fat skis" (yes of course they are, it is UTAH.  And yours are 70 mm so get with the program, fool.), and just not listening to you.

Back to Burke: I'm really sick of what is happening.  These guys are the worst I have ever seen and are downright cocky about it.  Sad, so sad.  My home mountain deserves better.


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## oldtimer (Jan 27, 2014)

*Burke Weekend 1/25*

We skied this weekend and things have definitely improved.  They have made more snow down low and teh skiing on Bear Den to Ledges etc was great.  Dippers, Little Dipper etc all skied very well. The were blowing hard on upper training hill Sat night through Sunday and with the wind it was filling in under the lift and even onto Doug's quite nicely.  

Bad news is that those in the know tell my that day ticket purchases are in the dumper-  way off of last year and last year was not good.  No surprise, but not healthy.

Staff morale seems to be improving.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> We skied this weekend and things have definitely improved.  They have made more snow down low and teh skiing on Bear Den to Ledges etc was great.  Dippers, Little Dipper etc all skied very well. The were blowing hard on upper training hill Sat night through Sunday and with the wind it was filling in under the lift and even onto Doug's quite nicely.
> 
> Bad news is that those in the know tell my that day ticket purchases are in the dumper-  way off of last year and last year was not good.  No surprise, but not healthy.
> 
> Staff morale seems to be improving.



That's in part due to the weather and probably somewhat due to the negative PR.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 27, 2014)

I also skied a lot at Burke this weekend. The conditions were the best I could remember in quite awhile. It seems like the snowmaking has amped up considerably in the last couple weeks, and we even have gotten about 6" natural over the last couple of days (~4" today). I think the mood/atmosphere is changing. Certainly, there have been some missteps by new ownership/management, but I think that they are beginning to 'get it' and the mood at the mountain is beginning to change, a lot. Hopefully that continues and there's a strong finish to the season....looking forward to it!


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## Masskier (Jan 28, 2014)

Just got in from skiing.  The  conditions are by far the best of the season.  They  continue to pump snow on training hill and some on Doug's.  They also added lower Foxes, Foxes and started to resuface lower Bear Den.  I've never seen so much  snow on the training hill. It probably be skiable till May or June.  Reminded me of how Killington use to pump up Superstar.


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## xwhaler (Jan 28, 2014)

That's great news---just booked my Cannon/Burke trip today (3rd wknd in March)


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 29, 2014)

Good to hear things are improving (conditions at least). Hopefully things will continue to improve on all fronts.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2014)

An excerpt from an Email to passholders:



> Dear Season Passholders,
> As we approach the end of January, I wanted to reach out and let you know about our snowmaking plan for the remainder of this season. We have admittedly faced some challenges this season, but I want to let you know up front that we are committed to making snow into at least mid-February. Our mountain operations and snowmaking teams have been working hard all season long, and I believe that hard work is now manifesting itself in some great conditions - the best we've seen all season - up on the mountain.
> In terms of our recent snowmaking efforts, temperatures have been incredible for snowmaking and we've been taking full advantage. Over the course of the last 10 days or so, we've made snow on Little Dipper, Ledges, Open Slope, Big Dipper, Upper Bear Den, Upper Fox's Folly, Deer Run, Binney Lane, Bunker Hill and Carter Country, bringing our trail count up to 25. The guns are currently on Upper Warren's Way and Lower Warren's Way (photo on the left taken today), which we'll look to complete in the next few days. We'll finish on Upper and Lower Warren's, then move to Fox's Folly. Once we're done there, we'll evaluate the remainder of the mountain and continue to make snow where we need it and refresh surfaces that could use it to make sure they last through March. I want to re-assure you of our commitment to making snow through at least mid-February so that we can continue to provide you with the best possible conditions for Presidents Weekend and School Vacation weeks, as well as set the mountain up for a strong spring all the way through March and hopefully, into April. If you happen to be on the mountain anytime soon and see our Mountain Operations Director Jason Lefebvre, or our Snowmaking Manager Denny DeGreenia, or any of Denny's team of hardworking snowmakers, please thank them for their efforts. They have worked tirelessly through some incredibly challenging conditions this season, have put in more hours than they can probably remember, and in the end have done an incredible job.
> Once again, conditions are fantastic and I urge you all to come up and inspect them for yourselves. This weekend would be a great time to do so. We've got Ski & Ride with the Point on Friday, a Super Bowl party in the Tamarack on Sunday, and in between it's Passholder Appreciation Weekend. We're happy to offer 50% off lift tickets for your guests both Saturday and Sunday. We've lifted the restrictions on our midweek passes for Saturday and Sunday, so midweek passholders can ski or ride this weekend. We're doing an Apres Party in the Bear Den from 3-6pm on Saturday where I'll do a quick welcome, thank you and update, and you'll have a chance to meet the team here, if you haven't already. During the happy hour we'll also raffle off a 2014/15 Season Pass to one lucky person, so make sure to be there. After that, live music from the Dean Machine from 9pm-Midnight, and a free continental breakfast for passholders on Sunday at 8:30am in the Kingdom Cafeteria round out the weekend. This is just one small way we can show you how much we appreciate you and everything you do for this mountain.
> ...



​


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2014)

The webcam is back on! And as I post this it is DUMPING.  http://skiburke.com/webcam


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## fbrissette (Feb 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The webcam is back on! And as I post this it is DUMPING.  http://skiburke.com/webcam




Hmmmm.   The Qwebcam please.

Powder will not solve everything, but it'll help.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2014)

1st day on skis this year = tomorrow morning (not counting the J-bar hill with the 4 year old last Saturday :wink


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## fbrissette (Feb 5, 2014)

Enjoy it !  Should be a good one.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> 1st day on skis this year = tomorrow morning (not counting the J-bar hill with the 4 year old last Saturday :wink



Get it right....it's now the Q-Bar.


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## fbrissette (Feb 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Get it right....it's now the Q-Bar.


We're getting a lot of mileage out of this Q thing...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> We're getting a lot of mileage out of this Q thing...



The Poma discs have been replaced with "Q's".  Don't get the tail in your butt.


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## billski (Feb 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The Poma discs have been replaced with "Q's".  Don't get the tail in your butt.



and it's not a "lift line", its a "Q". :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Feb 6, 2014)

This past Sunday Ary Q was scanning lift tickets (Q-tickets?) for about two hours at the Sherburne Express.  It smacked of desperation to me.  ("Look at me!  I'm not arrogant after all!")  What was really interesting is that NOBODY even acknowledged the guy.  And for that matter, he wasn't that welcoming.  He was all business.  

I don't need him to scan lift tickets.  I need him to make sure that snow is made and the mountain is groomed.  But more importantly I want to hear him admit that he has made some mistakes.  He is going through great pains to say anything but.  If he knows he has made some mistakes, then I think the guy has a chance.  But if he thinks that he can B.S. his way out of his mistakes, he is selling the people who live in the Kingdom short.

I'm willing to give the guy a chance.  Frankly, I think that the tide has turned so much against Ary that we are now part of the problem.  Everything he does is now criticized - and I am concerned that even when he does something right nobody will want to admit it.  The truth is that Burke can't survive with so few customers.  We here in the NEK are spoiled.  We want our local mountain to have no lift lines, but then we forget that this means certain bankruptcy.  

In my opinion, the one thing that will be important to watch is the hotel.  If they can't break ground this year, I am going to get nervous.  Ary knows that you can never make money without a hotel.  So if the funding doesn't come through, how much longer will they hang on?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 6, 2014)

Do you think that the ski school will start giving Q-tips?  (rim shot)


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 6, 2014)

> The truth is that Burke can't survive with so few customers.  We here in the NEK are spoiled.  We want our local mountain to have no lift lines, but then we forget that this means certain bankruptcy.


 
Yikes, a bluebird "powder day" today and I would be surprised if there were 75 people at Burke. I hope this can be turned around. See full report here –

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/128191-Burke-2-6-14?p=822346#post822346


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yikes, a bluebird "powder day" today and I would be surprised if there were 75 people at Burke. I hope this can be turned around. See full report here –
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/128191-Burke-2-6-14?p=822346#post822346



Did Ary scan your ticket?


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 6, 2014)

Didn't see him today. I did see TOTB


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Didn't see him today. I did see TOTB



Yeah, you need to watch out with him.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 7, 2014)

have you guys, like, been to burke this year? seems like an awful lot of negativity in here. I have about a dozen days in and conditions have been excellent. Have the shared Jay pass and on par its been better than Jay. they have blown more snow than ever  and the grooming is some of the best I have seen. seems a little infantile to focus on the name when the product is really good.

and cut Ary a break, he and his Dad seem to need a PR rep but still, they seem to be coming around and making amends-  how is it bad he was working the liftlines? isnt that what you want from an owner? tough crowd.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> have you guys, like, been to burke this year? seems like an awful lot of negativity in here. I have about a dozen days in and conditions have been excellent. Have the shared Jay pass and on par its been better than Jay. they have blown more snow than ever  and the grooming is some of the best I have seen. seems a little infantile to focus on the name when the product is really good.
> 
> and cut Ary a break, he and his Dad seem to need a PR rep but still, they seem to be coming around and making amends-  how is it bad he was working the liftlines? isnt that what you want from an owner? tough crowd.



Welcome to the boards.  Check out the many threads on the board to see what is really going down.  You will see that the new ownership has burned a lot of bridges with the community.


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## fbrissette (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> have you guys, like, been to burke this year? seems like an awful lot of negativity in here. I have about a dozen days in and conditions have been excellent. Have the shared Jay pass and on par its been better than Jay. they have blown more snow than ever  and the grooming is some of the best I have seen. seems a little infantile to focus on the name when the product is really good.
> 
> and cut Ary a break, he and his Dad seem to need a PR rep but still, they seem to be coming around and making amends-  how is it bad he was working the liftlines? isnt that what you want from an owner? tough crowd.



To me it is fairly simple:

- man up and say you were wrong and made many mistakes (don't let Bill Stenger do the apologizing) and that you learned from those mistakes
- you'll mend broken bridges with the kingdom trail association to improve on the partnership
- you understand that the name change is not popular and you'll do a better at communicating changes in the future.

Simple enough.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> To me it is fairly simple:
> 
> - man up and say you were wrong and made many mistakes (don't let Bill Stenger do the apologizing) and that you learned from those mistakes
> - you'll mend broken bridges with the kingdom trail association to improve on the partnership
> ...



Father and son have made it clear that they don't care.  Ary views the community and loyal Burkies as the enemy.  :blink:


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

Uhh... with all due respect I have been to Burke this year, and have many friends that are passholders.  If you are stating that conditions have been excellent this year, I suspect that you are a shill for Ary or Burke.  

Fact: Snowmaking this year has been troubled.  They have not blown more snow than ever.  The mountain itself, in an apology letter to passholders, admitted that they had "challenges" this year when it comes to snowmaking.  If they can admit it, why can't you?  

I am not alone in this belief.  I've spoken with scores of passholders that have lamented the snow conditions this year.  A lot had to do with Mother Nature, but a lot did not.  If you looked at other mountains, it was very clear that Burke was behind the eight ball this winter, and that they are still trying to catch up.  Through the Christmas holiday there was only one way down from the summit.  Just take a look at this trip report if you don't belive me: http://tinyurl.com/l6dqm4g

I want to see Ary succeed.  Believe me.  But being in denial about the conditions on the mountain is not going to help anybody.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Uhh... with all due respect I have been to Burke this year, and have many friends that are passholders.  If you are stating that conditions have been excellent this year, I suspect that you are a shill for Ary or Burke.
> 
> Fact: Snowmaking this year has been troubled.  They have not blown more snow than ever.  The mountain itself, in an apology letter to passholders, admitted that they had "challenges" this year when it comes to snowmaking.  If they can admit it, why can't you?
> 
> ...



I think that, unfortunately, they are WAY behind in terms of terrain this season and hear from many sources that skier days are WAY lower.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 7, 2014)

a shill? seriously?  no sir, I actually ski at Jay way more, but this year has been so thin their the woods arent worth it and the trails there are not why you go.
 burke sent out an email to passholders at x-mas saying they were focusing on quality over quantity.  yes only willoughby/poma was open but it was  good- in my experience. Not the first christmas at burke with just willoughby from the summit... right? right. 
and I have a burke pass, the awfully named "judge", and I dont recall any snowmaking f-up letters. maybe I am wrong but so what?  i think Q burke is ridiculous and wrote the mountain a letter over kingdom trails. but to hear the negativiity for a place that all things being equal hasnt changed at all in form is just insane.

trailboss your comments are just silly. the enemy? like when I ski by Ary in the liftline he tries to trip me and then beat me with my own ski pole? c'mon dude.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

So now you are changing your tune to say that other years have been as bad - and that things have been "good" even if they are not improved.  At least you are backing away from your original argument - even if slowly.

I understand that Jay didn't have glades open, but do you honestly expect us to believe that Jay didn't do a better job with their snowmaking terrain?  If you are going to make an argument, at least compare apples to apples.

Also, you do understand that the "quality over quantity" email was damage control to explain an absolute dearth of snowmaking, do you not?


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 7, 2014)

would be willing to bet skier days are lower due to the ridiculous cold and the a crappy snowless winter. what are other mountains reporting? jay has seemed busy as usual to me this year who knows.

and how are they behind on terrain? they had similar percentages open as most areas and would say that is currently accurate.burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.

agree wholeheart with lbrissette for what its worth. but still dont get the snarky negativity from you guys.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> have you guys, like, been to burke this year? [T]he grooming is some of the best I have seen.





Big Wave Dave said:


> burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.


I think people get snarky when you can't even keep the same train of thought.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> would be willing to bet skier days are lower due to the ridiculous cold and the a crappy snowless winter. what are other mountains reporting? jay has seemed busy as usual to me this year who knows.
> 
> and how are they behind on terrain? they had similar percentages open as most areas and would say that is currently accurate.burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.



They did not have a lot of terrain open for TWO out of three crucial holiday periods.  That is huge.  Sure, weather was an issue, but they admitted that they had problems with snowmaking.



> agree wholeheart with lbrissette for what its worth. but still dont get the snarky negativity from you guys.



Again, you need to go back in this thread and read what folks have discussed and read the media reports themselves.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 7, 2014)

VTKillarney, what I said is it is not at all weird to only have one trail from the summit at burke at christmas. I have no idea what else you are talking about. Kind of disengenous also since the entire base area was open, and thats the focus for families during a holiday week. 
i also recall skiing boot deep pow one week before christmas all over the mountain with no snowmaking in site. maybe they f'd up- but you and I both know if it hadnt thawed big time then no one would have noticed snowmaking issues. Just seemed like burke to me, never been a place that threw alot of dollars into the wind and I have never expected that when i go there.  it skied better than jay did after the big thaw IMHO.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

You are correct.  If it did not thaw they would have had more snow.  

But it did thaw.  And guess what.  They gambled and they lost big time.  Other resorts were MUCH better prepared for the thaw.  Burke was not even close to being prepared.  They lost pretty much everything they had, and it was almost as if they had to start the season over from scratch.  

Just look at trail reports from after the thaw, and you will see exactly what I mean.  

And keep in mind, Ary dumped a lot of money into snowmaking this past summer and claimed that it would be much better.  Even if it was just the same as usual that's a negative.

My intel states that they had issues with snowmaking because they got rid of the person who knew how to run the system the best.  I'm not sure if this is true, but it fits with what has been happening up there.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 7, 2014)

Trailboss, I wont fight ya, I skied burke before x-mas and once on NY weekend (dont ski during holiday weeks, no explanation necessary right?) and it seemed like normal burke to me. I think you guys need to cut some slack IF the owners clean up their PR routine and especially if they bring KT back into good graces. Expect speedbumps any time new management takes something over (as in people get fired and sh*t breaks), whether burke or elsewhere. Burke is still burke and a dumb name and foot in mouth owner aint gonna change that.

peace people, see ya in the TRAM line this weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> trailboss your comments are just silly. the enemy? like when I ski by Ary in the liftline he tries to trip me and then beat me with my own ski pole? c'mon dude.



:roll:  Um, OK. Read this post from Ary (yes, it was really from him) and tell me I am wrong:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uvmba/jM5cnYOfTh0

This all started when Ary had an interview with VTDigger andbasically threw KT under the bus claiming that they were taking advantage of Burke.  

And his Daddy said some really vicious and libelous things about the previous (quiet) partner at the mountain who has donated hundreds ofthousands of dollars to BMA and Burke to keep it going.  That was on VTDigger last month.   Really below the belt there and the (lack of an) apology was really pathetic.  

Both KT and BMA are HUGE reasons why Burke even still operates.  Hell, they ARE the reason why Burke still exists.  And both father and son really went on the attack for whatever reason.  Don’t believe me?  Spend the weekend going through this thread and read the VTDigger articles.  Watch the WCAX interview and listen to what Ary says. Then tell us that we’re wrong.  So far you are the ONLY person who has tried to play Devil’s Advocate.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, I wont fight ya, I skied burke before x-mas and once on NY weekend (dont ski during holiday weeks, no explanation necessary right?) and it seemed like normal burke to me. I think you guys need to cut some slack IF the owners clean up their PR routine and especially if they bring KT back into good graces. Expect speedbumps any time new management takes something over (as in people get fired and sh*t breaks), whether burke or elsewhere. Burke is still burke and a dumb name and foot in mouth owner aint gonna change that.
> 
> peace people, see ya in the TRAM line this weekend.



Again, the NE ski industry lives or dies by revenue that comes from Saturdays and the three big holiday periods (Xmas, MLK,Presidents).  As Win Smith told us Sugarbush passholders in October 2010, it literally boils down to like 42 DAYS that make or break a resort and determine if the season is in the black or red(and how red).  So far Burke has BLOWN two out of those three periods and admitted that they did not do so well in anEmail (that I received from a Burke passholder).  

Sure in the days of Burke 2000, before Ginn, and even during one of Ginn’s season, the Christmas Skiing sucked.  But they pretty much almost ALWAYS got their act together by MLK because they had to.   Not this year.  They opened later and had problems with snowmaking.  They admitted that they did a different snowmaking plan this year by not opening a lot of terrain at once.  Folks go to places that have the most trails open as listed on SnoCountry.com. Sorry, it’s the truth.  

And the PR stupidity did not help them either.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

I think it's as simple as this.  For the first half of the season Burke has had a fraction of the terrain to offer compared to other mountains (percentage wise).  This was due to a lack of snowmaking.

If you want people to come to your mountain, you can't lure them if other mountains have a much higher percentage of terrain open.

It comes back to what I said at the very beginning.  I don't need to like Ary.  I just need him to make sure snow is made and the trails are groomed.  That didn't happen this year.

A friend of mine rents a condo on the mountain.  All of his tenants so far have wound up skiing at other areas in the region and have stated that they will rent at those other areas in future years.  That does not bode well for Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> A friend of mine rents a condo on the mountain.  All of his tenants so far have wound up skiing at other areas in the region and have stated that they will rent at those other areas in future years.  That does not bode well for Burke.



Wow. That sucks.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow. That sucks.


Yeah, he's really bummed about it.  He has never had a year like this.  The renters haven't been upset at the lack of snow.  They've been upset at the lack of snowmaking. 

Truthfully, his best season is in the summer.  That's why he is so bummed at losing these people who were willing to rent in the winter.


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## billski (Feb 7, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> have you guys, like, been to burke this year?


Yep.  About a month ago.  Caught some snow which increased the trail count about four.  It was a good but frustrating day.  Then it rained again.   Do you have skin in the game?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2014)

Looks like QBurke is not partaking in the annual Lyndon/Burke Snowflake Festival.  And the Burke Chamber of Commerce moved their recent winter social to another venue.  

Q might as well secede from the town and form the Town of Quiros: population 1


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2014)

I chuckled when I noticed that their printed trail map lists Kingdom Trails as a "partner."

Skiing was the best it has been this year thanks to the recent natural snow.  They need one more dump, however, to completely cover the trails without snowmaking.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I chuckled when I noticed that their printed trail map lists Kingdom Trails as a "partner."
> 
> Skiing was the best it has been this year thanks to the recent natural snow.  They need one more dump, however, to completely cover the trails without snowmaking.



Q will charge them next year for the advertising. It's called maximizing revenue.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 10, 2014)

hey guys me again. This is fun!

how odd the world is, I know multiple families who are planning on renting condo's next year at burke or are in the market to buy.  I also know a few people who have season rentals this year who were surprised by the cost but did it anyway. So I guess the trepidation is not uniform, because rates are the greatest indication of owner perception of the market. And the rates are HIGH for winter rentals in my opinion.TBD I guess for next year but I am not hearing this at all, and the market does not reflect this- home/condo prices are not budging either and when properties have been trading they have been trading on the ask.The sentiment you refer to is not being seen in real time practice.

Traiboss, BTW, I came to this forum because of the VTDigger articles so if your wondering what rabbit hole I popped out of.... (gotta love the Digger...). This was clearly the website that was mentioned as having lots of negative comments, I was very surprised at how negative (yours especially for a moderator) and I just didnt see the need after all the times I have been in the Q era, so here I am. I get that they are PR idiots and the KT crowd is passionate to the point of insanity (they should be, they built the damn thing and it rocks), but the Q's also have alot more to lose than you or anyone else on this thread.  Your comment  that they are charging for advertisment, tongue in cheek I get it, but hell, how many times has burke gone out of business. What do you propose they do? Clearly they need to revisit revenue streams as well as many other structural issues. Thus, eggs broken and people miffed and here we are. 
I spent many years in the world of corporate finance and m&a before moving up here full time and I can tell  you, what the Q's have done is not much different than what happens in corporate reorgs across the world, new owners think eveyone else did it wrong and think they can do it better, and express that. You can say what you want about Don Graham (who I know) or the Doug Kitchels of the world but a fact is a fact- burke has been a disater financially and someone with deep pockets is willing to take a risk to end that, and they are high on themselves for doing it.Let them puff their chests a bit if thats what they think they need, people down in Boston and Hartford who ski weekends have no idea about the pissing matches that you and I do, and the perception of burke from the folks I meet on the chair hasnt changed a bit, except their is real excitement now about what *could be*.  People look at Jay and they say "why not here". and its really the same team, so why not? keep In mind, Jay has had its issues too but its going gangbusters, maybe a little too much....

I also saw some print media/mtn bike rag that said KT talks with the Q's are back on... would love to get your and the others thoughts on this.Was a bike mag and not from the mouth of Q Jr so hoping its not spin.

and Bill T, yeah I have skin in the game. I live in Glover, spent my youth and my kids youth at Burke and Jay, and if Burke dies the burke/lyndon area dies with it, from the condo's to the Colonnade, with everything in between (Wildflower, Village Inn, EB Sports) dying. So maybe I am a "shill" as prior stated


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> hey guys me again. This is fun!
> 
> how odd the world is, I know multiple families who are planning on renting condo's next year at burke or are in the market to buy.  I also know a few people who have season rentals this year who were surprised by the cost but did it anyway. So I guess the trepidation is not uniform, because rates are the greatest indication of owner perception of the market. And the rates are HIGH for winter rentals in my opinion.TBD I guess for next year but I am not hearing this at all, and the market does not reflect this- home/condo prices are not budging either and when properties have been trading they have been trading on the ask.The sentiment you refer to is not being seen in real time practice.
> 
> ...



It seems to me that you are  because if you read the VTDigger comments and those here you will see that you're in the minority...perhaps playing Devil's Advocate?

And yes, moderators have opinions.  The tag does not mean anything regarding that opinion.

If you see Ary’s comments back in December as not being inciteful (accusing KT of taking advantage of the mountain), nor his father’s comments slander (accusing Don Graham as using the mountain to cater to his friends and not giving a rats a$$ about the community), then you must know something that the majority does not know or have an inside line that we don’t.  The view, both here and in downtown Burke, is that these folks are burning bridges left and right and really pissing people off.  Hence, why you had no lines at “Q” and had such an awesome ski experience because nobody is there!  Just because others may do this elsewhere does not make it right.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

And as to what to do: here are two case studies you shouldlook at.  The first being Ascutney in which the last owners were from the “NYC Business” crowd and came up, plasteredtheir faces all over everything, made the mountain about “them” and pissed offthe locals so much that they could not get employees and struggled for yearsbefore going down in flames in 2010.  I’msure that they did some things right by the book, but they still failed.  

The other case study would be Sugarbush.  Deep pocketed Win Smith comes in and understands the community, embraces it (with its quirks), and emphasizes the importance of service and guest relations. I’d call that a success story.  Isit perfect?  No, but he is smart enoughto know that when the winter sucks the folks in NYC will fly to Colorado toski, while the local family in Waitsfield/Warren are committed to Sugarbush and will be there if you treat them right.  

You argue that they need to worry about folks in Hartford and NYC.  Hate to say that, but they’ve been doing that for now 30 years or so. It is a tough market.  The last few years they were trying to cater to both and trying to use the local community to their advantage because when the snow sucks they still come.  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.  

You also say that it’s OK, for the vitality of the business,to burn some bridges and make some changes that may anger some customers.  I don’t think anyone disputes that to a certain extent and the counterpoint is NOT that change is bad.  But you don’t get into a heated public fight with a very visible non-profit group that is giving you pretty much your entire summer business over a few bucks and then smile for the camera as you call them mooches.  You also don’t call the savior of the mountain, who still is in town, a selfish a$$hole and not expect some blowback.  And you also don’t take a community institution that has been around longer than you or me and slap your name on it as they’ve done.  

So what do you do now? Surely if you read and gave us locals some credit (yes, I am a local because I grew up in Lyndon and have followed the ski area for years), you will see that the solution is to hit the “reset” button, send Ary to another business, and get in a seasoned* ski resort manager* to run things.  Ownership takes a step back—no more interviews with anyone, no more off-the-cuff stupid remarks, let the manager run things.  Get a PR campaign back up…Burke:nothing’s changed.  Focus on the beds for the out-of-towners.  Make amends with KT—agreeto give them a few bucks, but charge a bit more on the lift tickets orfood.  Welcome all guests and stop withthe “we’re smarter than you all” crap. As you surely know the whole “I’m smarter than you” thing does not work well in the NEK.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

One only needs to see that the Quiros don't say *anything* regarding Jay Peak, that they also own, Bill does the talking.  Now we know why.  The same should go with Burke.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 10, 2014)

Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot 

	We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution. 

 regarding strategy, lets change the talk. 

What are your thoughts and the other members on the viability of the hotel, training faciliites, etc.

because at the end of the day, these are the elements that truly define the sustainability of Burke. Not if Q Sr. badmouthed an NEK hero, or that Q jr. thinks lift serviced mtn biking is viable without a KT nexus. Location and circumstance are far harder to change than rhetoric. This is all a tempest in a teapot compared to what happens if they don’t build what they say and change that fundamental dynamic.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot
> 
> We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
> Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution.
> ...


As I've stated before, Burke is in a tough location and the Hotel has been something Burke has been lacking for a LONG time. The other training facilities (tennis/swimming/diving) will provide a lot of "non-skiing" guests to help pay the bills. HOWEVER, are these things going to get enough EB-5 support with the way things have gone in the last 8 months? Those investors want to choose a project that has a good chance of succeeding or else their money was thrown into a hole and they don't get their green card(s). Things seem to be stabilizing a bit but I may be hesitant if I was an EB-5 investor right now looking at Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2014)

I'll take the bait.  

I am in the camp that believes that the best bet for Burke's survival is to develop hotel rooms at the base.  That has always been an weak spot for Burke.  If you get people into rooms they spent a LOT more money than they would just buying a lift ticket.  

But here is the key.  There are other mountains with hotels.  If Burke wants to fill rooms, they need to deliver a decent product.  The mountain is a great mountain.  But they need to give people confidence that the snow will be on the ground.  If Ary can improve the snowmaking situation next year, I will be very optimistic.  

I also believe that Ary needs to find a way to work again with Kingdom Trails.  I don't want to hear that he plans on talking.  I want to hear about an agreement.  The two organizations are MUCH better working together than going it on their own.  Very few mountains the size of Burke do as well developing business in the summer.  If it were not for the mountain biking, any hotel would sit nearly empty in the summer.  It behooves both Burke and KT to make the mountain biking experience as seamless as possible.

Again, I freely admit that I have been to quick to criticize Ary.  He deserves a chance.  If he has learned his lesson, then I give him all of my support.  I'm just overly anxious right now to see if that's really happened.

I did see him in the base lodge this afternoon trying to strike up some conversations with guests.  I think that's a step in the right direction - but I also hope to see some more substantive actions.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> As I've stated before, Burke is in a tough location and the Hotel has been something Burke has been lacking for a LONG time. The other training facilities (tennis/swimming/diving) will provide a lot of "non-skiing" guests to help pay the bills. HOWEVER, are these things going to get enough EB-5 support with the way things have gone in the last 8 months? Those investors want to choose a project that has a good chance of succeeding or else their money was thrown into a hole and they don't get their green card(s). Things seem to be stabilizing a bit but I may be hesitant if I was an EB-5 investor right now looking at Burke.



Exactly.  

Big Wave Dave is very new to the scene here, so he has not seen the pages and pages of discussion on the hotel and the "strategy" that we’ve all hashed out.  There’s more than meets the eye.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'll take the bait.
> 
> I am in the camp that believes that the best bet for Burke's survival is to develop hotel rooms at the base.  That has always been an weak spot for Burke.  If you get people into rooms they spent a LOT more money than they would just buying a lift ticket.
> 
> ...



+ 1 on all points.


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## burski (Feb 10, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot
> 
> We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
> Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution.
> ...



To blame what has happened to date as “errors of execution:blink:” is generous indeed, any sort of thought out strategy would anticipate what is needed to execute that strategy - the strategy to date seems to be to not have a strategy, or worse a very ill-conceived strategy...Although things appear to be getting better, there is still a long way to go. 
the snowmaking remains horrible, this past thursday on the first true powder day of the season the bread and butter trial, Dippers was unskiable as it was a sheet of ice - an inexperienced snowmaking plan to make snow during a snow storm and then groom it before it gets a chance to set up left the trail hazardous, even this weekend it was rough. they then made snow on Foxes (credit for that) but the inexperience of the snowmaking staff showed again as this trail is now unskiable as the snowmaking piles literally create a series of hazard that are not enjoyable or worth negotiating. 

As for a comparison of how Burke is doing vs the rest of Vermont I would say not good - I have heard from reliable sources that revenue is down over 40% -the rest of the state is down less then 10%

I also heard that the majority of their kitchen staff quit this past Thursday night in the middle of the shift walking out while the restaurant was still open - vacation week should be a treat if that is true...

Then there is the rumor that is now going around that the hotel may not start this summer (or this year)

Granted there is a lot of second hand information here but most of the second hand information I have heard this year has ended up being spot on....


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

burski said:


> To blame what has happened to date as “errors of execution:blink:” is generous indeed, any sort of thought out strategy would anticipate what is needed to execute that strategy - the strategy to date seems to be to not have a strategy, or worse a very ill-conceived strategy...Although things appear to be getting better, there is still a long way to go.




Well said.  I realized the same thing as I was thinking about it on my way home but I did not want to hurt the new guy's feelings. 

Anyways, I agree that no matter how awesome their "strategy" may be, they will not make it with these stupid "errors of execution." That's kind of like saying that the Broncos last week had a real "awesome game winning strategy", but for a few "errors of execution". 

It seems odd to espouse the wisdom of running a business but then brush off what are basic Marketing 101 issues. 




> the snowmaking remains horrible, this past thursday on the first true powder day of the season the bread and butter trial, Dippers was unskiable as it was a sheet of ice - an inexperienced snowmaking plan to make snow during a snow storm and then groom it before it gets a chance to set up left the trail hazardous, even this weekend it was rough. they then made snow on Foxes (credit for that) but the inexperience of the snowmaking staff showed again as this trail is now unskiable as the snowmaking piles literally create a series of hazard that are not enjoyable or worth negotiating.



Completely foreseeable.  Let go of your mountain ops staff and the VP for Mountain Ops, who has more experience than Ary is in age, and you get this.  All for a few bucks.  I'm glad that Ary is out there on the snowmobile watching and learning, but to do so at the expense of 40% of your revenue so far makes no sense at all either.  It also impedes their plans for the future because they are just so much in the red.  Sound familiar?!  Yep, previous Burke management have made the same mistake (Ginn, Bear Kingdom, etc.)  



> As for a comparison of how Burke is doing vs the rest of Vermont I would say not good - I have heard from reliable sources that revenue is down over 40% -the rest of the state is down less then 10%



This reflects the weather, lack of snowmaking, and the negative PR to a certain extent.  Remember that the whole PR disaster began literally days before Christmas Break.  The Break that they had terrible conditions.  Remember?  Who would be there to buy the tickets and ski during such a crummy week?  The same locals you just pissed on.  



> I also heard that the majority of their kitchen staff quit this past Thursday night in the middle of the shift walking out while the restaurant was still open - vacation week should be a treat if that is true...



Wow that sucks.  Was it because of Q?  



> Then there is the rumor that is now going around that the hotel may not start this summer (or this year)
> 
> Granted there is a lot of second hand information here but most of the second hand information I have heard this year has ended up being spot on....



Makes perfect sense.  A bad year is not going to encourage investors to pony up $500k for an EB-5 project if they cannot even run the place.  I think that if the debacle continues that Bill will step in and turn things around because if the negative vibe gets out it will spook investors.

And if Bill is reading, I know that some of these "negative" AZer's were at the focus group last year and gave feedback that so far has been ignored.  We'd love to give you constructive input on what to do in order to do things around so that the whole thing does not go down the drain.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2014)

If the overall strategy was to bring about profitability, it's no secret that the execution was to slash operating expenses - rather than improve the overall product.  I am sympathetic to reducing operating expenses where it makes sense to do so, but snowmaking suffered dearly.  Apparently there was no sacred cow.  Whether it's because this was a conscious decision or whether this was a result of eliminating institutional memory, I am not sure.  No matter the cause, the result is what mattered.  

Interesting observation regarding the Dippers.  I was scratching my head on Sunday trying to figure out why they were so crunchy after a snowfall.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

And to be honest I don't think that any of us are saying that operating a ski area is an "easy" business.  It is not.  It has evolved into a very specialized industry.  Just because one has a business degree does not guarantee success in the biz.  In many ways it is very counterintuitive....your highest demand is when your "product" is very limited and at its worst quality and demand is zip when your product is at its best and when there is the most selection (early season vs. late season).  It is also a very capital intensive industry.  To add insult to injury Vermont is not the most friendly place for a ski area looking to expand.  We'll save that for another discussion.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If the overall strategy was to bring about profitability, it's no secret that the execution was to slash operating expenses - rather than improve the overall product.  I am sympathetic to reducing operating expenses where it makes sense to do so, but snowmaking suffered dearly.  Apparently there was no sacred cow.  Whether it's because this was a conscious decision or whether this was a result of eliminating institutional memory, I am not sure.  No matter the cause, the result is what mattered.
> 
> Interesting observation regarding the Dippers.  I was scratching my head on Sunday trying to figure out why they were so crunchy after a snowfall.



See I can see them cutting some things, but to be honest it was pretty bare bones to begin with and they cut way too far.  Why eliminate the ticket desk at Mid-Burke when lots of experts and intermediates wen there to start (so did racers and their families)?  That just hurts the service-side.  Why eliminate your institutional knowledge for such a specialized industry to save a few bucks?  Why spend thousands on a dumb, and needless, logo change and then turn around and fight with a local non-profit that has driven business to you for $20,000?  Their perceived "savings" ended up costing a ton.  See what I mean by it being a tough business that is very specialized and not necessarily fitting into the typical "business" model?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2014)

And I am hearing from other local sources in the know that the rumor about the kitchen staff is true.


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## billski (Feb 11, 2014)

I just read the piece on Stenger in the Spring  issue of SKI magazine.  In it he said they are looking for $250 to 400 million for Burke over the next five years.  I do recall this being said a while ago, but it kind of blew my mind, thinking back on this thread.  With that much money, they will do as they damn well pleaseq.  I'm sure they see this as a short lived period of denialq.  With that kind of infusion of capital and the jobs it will create, well, I'm sure that Q and q are not feeling any less confident.  Sad to say...


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## ScottySkis (Feb 11, 2014)

Basically what happened to K for about a decade is now starting at Burke. I didn't ski at Killington for 10 years because of bad business decisions. New K is awesome and I been there first day this year in November and hopefully I be their few more times this season. Maybe on 4/20/14


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

billski said:


> I just read the piece on Stenger in the Spring  issue of SKI magazine.  In it he said they are looking for $250 to 400 million for Burke over the next five years.  I do recall this being said a while ago, but it kind of blew my mind, thinking back on this thread.  With that much money, they will do as they damn well pleaseq.  I'm sure they see this as a short lived period of denialq.  With that kind of infusion of capital and the jobs it will create, well, I'm sure that Q and q are not feeling any less confident.  Sad to say...



The money isn't in hand yet.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 11, 2014)

Is there any way to check the status of EB-5 funding?  I haven't found any such website in my very quick search.

They are still reporting that they will break ground this spring:
http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/

If you click on the "about the owners" tab, it still lists the Menck Window Systems project, which according to VTDigger is a dead EB-5 project.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Is there any way to check the status of EB-5 funding?  I haven't found any such website in my very quick search.
> 
> They are still reporting that they will break ground this spring:
> http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/
> ...



My understanding was that they were still fundraising for Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> My understanding was that they were still fundraising for Burke.


I was just wondering if there was any sort of way to track how much had been raised.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I was just wondering if there was any sort of way to track how much had been raised.



Yeah I don't know.  Maybe Google the VT EB-5 service center?


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## noreasterbackcountry (Feb 11, 2014)

If foreign investors are the "deep pockets" and Stenger and the EB-5 center are setting the development strategy-  remind me again what Q Jr's role is in all of this...?

Oh yeah, operations.  So far he has told the local community he distrusts 90% of them (who are supposedly out to see him fail), damaged relations with KT (a golden egg laying summer goose that also happens to be his surrounding landowners and key to any local permitting), and is on track to oversee a significant shortfall in revenue.

I'd like to see the investment that the EB-5 program can bring to the area, but I don't see why he is a necessary part of that.  In fact, the more he destroys the cache built by Jay's success the more he becomes a liability and obstacle to raising the funds necessary to see the project to fruition.

Aside from the operations and PR miscues, why would you want someone who distrusts 90% of the local community, and is so obviously lacking in experience in charge of what promises to be an incredibly delicate process of balancing development with maintaining the character of the area?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> If foreign investors are the "deep pockets" and Stenger and the EB-5 center are setting the development strategy-  remind me again what Q Jr's role is in all of this...?
> 
> Oh yeah, operations.  So far he has told the local community he distrusts 90% of them (who are supposedly out to see him fail), damaged relations with KT (a golden egg laying summer goose that also happens to be his surrounding landowners and key to any local permitting), and is on track to oversee a significant shortfall in revenue.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  Thank you.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 17, 2014)

What do folks make of this?
http://skiburke.com/landing/ski-ride.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=seg2&utm_content=im1_co3&utm_campaign=promo45


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What do folks make of this?
> http://skiburke.com/landing/ski-rid...seg2&utm_content=im1_co3&utm_campaign=promo45



Desperation.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 17, 2014)

Two things are really odd about this promotion:
1) It was released at the beginning of MA school vacation.
2) It was released just when conditions at the mountain got really good.


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## zeke (Feb 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What do folks make of this?
> http://skiburke.com/landing/ski-ride.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=seg2&utm_content=im1_co3&utm_campaign=promo45



from a purely marketing point of view, it's the smartest thing i've seen them do. if all accounts are accurate, this season is a dismal wash (down 40% etc.). so when the mountain is finally fully open, probably skiing well, empty and other surrounding resorts (jay, cannon, loon etc.) are packed, why not throw out a great rate to get people to try you. what's a 45 min drive from loon when the lift line at loon is half that?

only thing is i'm not sure how they're getting this message out. fb, twitter and the burke site are only talking to people who are already interested to some point. so you're giving your current audience a discount instead of enticing new people to trial and setting a good stage for the future. a good initial idea but not really thought through from a delivery of message POV.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2014)

How are they getting the message out?  I didn't see anything on their Facebook page, twitter, or their website.  Their twitter account is all but dead.

I'm rethinking my concern about the timing.  If there has been a lot of negative chatter about the snow conditions, it makes sense to release this promotion when the snow is really good.  People have very short memories.


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## Mullen (Feb 18, 2014)

The 45 is a good deal!  I spent the last week at Burke (7th - 16th) in the condos, I hadn't been back since i left LSC in 1999.  One observation....this place can't be making any money.  Mid week last week I counted 5 cars in the mid burke lot total at about 11AM, not even the locals were out, and barely anyone staying in the condos.  The only people on the mountain were me, a couple others and the Burke academy racer kids.  I'd imagine there are more people there this week with the school vacations and new snow.  The riding was great though, conditions were awesome.....The longest lift line I waitied in was a few minutes on Saturday.  Trees are filled in nicely now.  I had no problems or complaints with anything other than the fact that you have to go to the bottom of the mtn to buy a lift ticket now......no more being able to buy them at Mid burke like back in the day, this is pretty effing annoying since I had no reason at all to go down there.  I could walk to the mid burke lift out the condo door but had to go to the base of the mtn for a ticket.  Dumb.  We got a sweet deal on the condo and tix off liftopia each day we went in the $40-$50 range.  It was a very affordable week for us, had a blast.  The area hasn't changed much at all really since my college days.


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## Boardguy (Feb 18, 2014)

Mullen you did notice the new lifts right? 

Lots of people there over this past weekend and conditions were good. The lift line up top was as large, probably larger, than I have ever seen it and the lodges were busy. I was surprised that Warren's way was closed for racing. I thought they were going back to the old deal that they would not close Warren's during holiday weeks.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2014)

Re: publicity of the promo.  I have no idea.  VTKilarney's post was the first time that I saw any mention of it and when I went to the site I did not see anything about it.  I see that you can buy tickets online, but the pricing was a bit higher.  So yeah, I have not heard anything about it before.  It may have been in the snow report Emails that I get or the weekly Email blast.  

Regarding the lift ticket office being at the base:  they cut the one person who sold sundries and lift tickets at Mid-Burke to save money.  It is kind of dumb I think.  Makes sense on paper, but not in reality.  

And as to the promo I think it is too little too late.  They really offered a subpar product at key holiday periods and they are now trying to make up for it when your market is getting smaller every week.  Folks will be thinking spring sports soon and not skiing.  They will get some good traffic this week for sure with the holiday, but not enough to make up for Christmas AND MLK Weekend.  From all accounts they were WAY down. Some folks might disagree with my classification, but NOBODY will pay top dollar for very limited terrain options no matter how great that snow may be.  Obvious solution would be to send Q2 to make airplanes and hire an experienced resort manager.  It is a broken record I know and what the hell do I know?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2014)

I only found out about it because it was posted in the deals thread on this forum.  I still can't find any reference to it outside of here.


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## dmw (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm a newcomer to the whole Burke thing in general, but I'd think getting the word out to more people is kind of their fundamental problem, right? I'd barely know it existed if I didn't start reading about it on here 2 years ago.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 18, 2014)

dmw said:


> I'm a newcomer to the whole Burke thing in general...


What is Burke? We are talking about Q Burke here :wink:


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## fbrissette (Feb 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I only found out about it because it was posted in the deals thread on this forum.  I still can't find any reference to it outside of here.



May be they are trying to get better press on this forum...


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## Nick (Feb 18, 2014)

Wow. Only 20 posts to 1k 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2014)

dmw said:


> I'm a newcomer to the whole Burke thing in general, but I'd think getting the word out to more people is kind of their fundamental problem, right? I'd barely know it existed if I didn't start reading about it on here 2 years ago.



Right, which is why their earlier "miscues" are only magnified. It's one thing if folks know a resort and their reputation and their is a hiccup.  People are more understanding there.  But when folks have no reference point and hear bad things it stings more.  



from_the_NEK said:


> What is Burke? We are talking about Q Burke here :wink:



POTD! :lol:



fbrissette said:


> May be they are trying to get better press on this forum...



You are giving them too much credit.  Burke's marketing guy has not been seen or heard from.  I doubt that they care about us


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> ......I doubt that they care about us



That would be a colossal mistake, word gets around with this crowd, to many who don't even frequent the forums...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 19, 2014)

Wouldn't you think they'd actually start building it before putting this out?

http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php


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## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2014)

What?  You don't think that it's good PR to have a contest offering prize that may never materialize or, if it does materialize, will not be available to the winner for a year or more?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What?  You don't think that it's good PR to have a contest offering prize that may never materialize or, if it does materialize, will not be available to the winner for a year or more?



:smile:


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## fbrissette (Feb 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What?  You don't think that it's good PR to have a contest offering prize that may never materialize or, if it does materialize, will not be available to the winner for a year or more?



The way they've been leading their boat, I won't even enter the contest, nor would I go if I won.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That would be a colossal mistake, word gets around with this crowd, to many who don't even frequent the forums...



You would think, but look at the a$$hole Email Ary sent to that bike message board.  



MEtoVTSkier said:


> Wouldn't you think they'd actually start building it before putting this out?
> 
> http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php



Good point! Never even considered that!


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 19, 2014)

This thread has become ridiculous. the same 2 or 3 people badmouthing Burke (or Q Burke). Half of you haven't even been there this year. Stop stirring the pot and go do some skiing or get outside. Seriously, calm down people, nothing bad has happened in the last month. Things seem to be recovering, time to let things happen and hopefully get better. Stop stirring the pot if you have no additional argument to make besides the same 4 or 5 you've been making for the past 50 pages of this thread.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> The way they've been leading their boat, I won't even enter the contest, nor would I go if I won.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent,

While I have been saying that we should give Ary a chance to see if he's learned from his mistakes, I don't agree that it is appropriate for one person to dictate what may discussed in an open forum designed for the free exchange of ideas.  

I think a more mature response would have been to recognize that Burke should not have let things get to the point where people are complaining.  Since there is no crying over spilled milk, I believe that it's best to support the mountain itself and the reality is right now that means supporting Ary so long as he makes changes to earn that trust.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 19, 2014)

VTKilarney-

I support your last sentence strongly. Think we are on same page. Sorry if it seemed like I tried to influence what was being discussed, perhaps it was more an attempt to try to redirect the tone. Your last sentence said much better what I failed at saying. Thanks.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> SkiRaceParent,
> 
> While I have been saying that we should give Ary a chance to see if he's learned from his mistakes, I don't agree that it is appropriate for one person to dictate what may discussed in an open forum designed for the free exchange of ideas.
> 
> I think a more mature response would have been to recognize that Burke should not have let things get to the point where people are complaining.  Since there is no crying over spilled milk, I believe that it's best to support the mountain itself and the reality is right now that means supporting Ary so long as he makes changes to earn that trust.



I agree with this as well.  Folks (including me) have legitimate concerns and want nothing more than the mountain to succeed.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2014)

And to be fair, I think it is reasonable to conclude that one of the major reasons Ary stepped back from the cliff is because there was strong criticism of his poorer decisions.  But like I said earlier, I do think that it's fair to see how this develops.  The good news is that we have some GREAT snow right now so everything is groovy.

IMHO, the next big test is going to be whether or not Ary repairs relations with Kingdom Trails by the end of March.  If he lets that problem drag later into the spring, a lot of people will have already made their summer plans.  If there is resentment among the ski community, I get the sense that there is a lot more resentment built up within the biking community.  With more and more mountains offering lift served biking each year, this is a very important issue for Burke.  This is especially true given that smaller mountains closer to large cities are much more competitive for biking than they are for skiing.  The only thing that differentiates Burke is that they are connected to the Kingdom Trail network.  Burke's lift served biking can be found in lots of other places - but the Kingdom Trail network is a VERY rare creature.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And to be fair, I think it is reasonable to conclude that one of the major reasons Ary stepped back from the cliff is because there was strong criticism of his poorer decisions.  But like I said earlier, I do think that it's fair to see how this develops.  The good news is that we have some GREAT snow right now so everything is groovy.
> 
> IMHO, the next big test is going to be whether or not Ary repairs relations with Kingdom Trails by the end of March.  If he lets that problem drag later into the spring, a lot of people will have already made their summer plans.  If there is resentment among the ski community, I get the sense that there is a lot more resentment built up within the biking community.  With more and more mountains offering lift served biking each year, this is a very important issue for Burke.  This is especially true given that smaller mountains closer to large cities are much more competitive for biking than they are for skiing.  The only thing that differentiates Burke is that they are connected to the Kingdom Trail network.  Burke's lift served biking can be found in lots of other places - but the Kingdom Trail network is a VERY rare creature.



Agree.  

I'd also think that the BMA community would be VERY concerned, especially after Q Sr.'s flaming of Don Graham.  That was bad.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree.
> 
> I'd also think that the BMA community would be VERY concerned, especially after Q Sr.'s flaming of Don Graham.  That was bad.



Direct relations between BMA and the Quiros' have actually been very good if not excellent, including snowmaking and trail access for training. Obviously the article quotes wrt Mr. Graham were a shock but many apologies have generously and sensitively flowed in from them since. Again, feel like relations are on the mend and have been for awhile, for what it's worth.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Direct relations between BMA and the Quiros' have actually been very good if not excellent, including snowmaking and trail access for training. Obviously the article quotes wrt Mr. Graham were a shock but many apologies have generously and sensitively flowed in from them since. Again, feel like relations are on the mend and have been for awhile, for what it's worth.



That's good considering that the "apology" that they posted on VTDigger was a non-apology at best.  The public perception is different.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

I am going to buy a season pass at Burke for my family for the 2014/2015 ski year.  I've been trying to stay on top of when the passes are available to take advantage of the "ski the rest of the year" free promotion when they are released.

I emailed Burke about a week ago to ask when they will be available.  I never heard back.  I just called the mountain today to ask the same question and got an answering machine.

This is not what I would call great customer service - especially when someone is trying to fork over a lot of money.

UPDATE: I tried calling again and got through.  I did not get a firm answer, but it was better than no answer at all.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I am going to buy a season pass at Burke for my family for the 2014/2015 ski year.  I've been trying to stay on top of when the passes are available to take advantage of the "ski the rest of the year" free promotion when they are released.
> 
> I emailed Burke about a week ago to ask when they will be available.  I never heard back.  I just called the mountain today to ask the same question and got an answering machine.
> 
> ...



That's what happens when you lay off your marketing department.  They tried, but even then I always felt that they never really "got it" with the marketing and sales aspect.  Generally if someone is offering to give you money you take it.  Whenever there are roadblocks, consumers go elsewhere.  It is just too easy.  For those in the NEK, like me growing up, you have a lot of choices...Cannon, BW, Jay, hell even the Lyndon Outing Club when there was snow.  I knew folks who drove to Sunday River regularly.  It is only 90 minutes away.

And I know that some think that we, well, me in particular, have been too negative.  This is constructive criticism and if you've been around AZ long enough you know that I grew up skiing at Burke starting in 1990 and from 2005-2008 or so was a passholder who skied there regularly.  So I'm obviously passionate about Burke and want to see it succeed.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

Interestingly enough, it's because I could not get an an answer that I started considering Bretton Woods.  I'm still on the fence, whereas I was not even thinking about Bretton Woods a few days ago.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Interestingly enough, it's because I could not get an an answer that I started considering Bretton Woods.  I'm still on the fence, whereas I was not even thinking about Bretton Woods a few days ago.



FWIW BW has come down a lot in price...at least I think they have.  Maybe not anymore.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2014)

hey guys, back after not having been in front of a computer much these past weeks.

looks like Ski Parent and I are on the same page- if you've been to burke, the amount of hubbub on this thread just didnt make sense- not to discount it, I think you are all coming from a very valuable place and are way more right than wrong. just a little too one directional, which is why I opened my mouth.

I skied burke 2x in the last 2 weeks and it was wonderful both times- a couple saturdays ago was hands down the busiest day I have ever seen there, 5-10 minute lines on the upper quad......so I really think that, as i prior stated, the facts about poor skier visits etc. may have been weather related- these folks certainly didnt seem to care that Ary fired the kitchen staff!! Etc. Etc. Further, alot of condo's have gone under agreement in the past couple weeks- people are voting with their wallets and its a positive vote.
Oddly enough I skied at Attitash and Wildcat this past weekend and they were super quiet- I was very shocked considering MA. vacation week and all that, the one day I skied at Burke mid-week had a decent amount of people but nothing crazy, maybe every chairlift full? Its hard for me to guage how busy it is with the new quad to be honest!

 if they did have a mass walkout you never would have known it, I had lunch at mid burke one day and dinner at the Tamarack the other and it was seamless and as expected.
My one good source says the hotel is on track, although I am shocked at the number I saw earlier on this thread for what they are seekign for total EB 5 investment. I have never seen more than $180m up to that.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2014)

oh yeah and BW is still super-flat


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

Whether or not there has been too much criticism, you can not get around the fact that management lit the flame.  Of all of the lessons, I think that's the most important one to be learned this year.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2014)

alot of advertising on The Point for Burke this past month or so, skiing and apres ski type stuff. 

Can anyone tell me what happened to Hannah, who was the voice of burke for years? presume she was let go along with David Gwatkin?

and VT Kilarney, Burke and BW are two totally different skiing experiences- would you really choose where to do the majority of your skiing based on a returned phone call? I get your logic, but BW could give me free tickets and i would still be bored there in an afternoon, no thanks.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

Dave Gwatkin hasn't been at Burke for a few years. I think you meant when Joe Kasparzak was let go? Hannah was let go in that purge of upper management prior to the season starting. She is now in the marketing department of the local Passumpsic Saving Bank (at least it is her voice on the PSB radio adds).


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## billski (Feb 24, 2014)

this thread is still Qoing?  I thought it would have died out after page 10!


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

One more post to 1000!


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2014)

1000!
thanks From the NEK, too bad, she seemed like a good kid and the right vibe for Burke. glad she is on her feet and still in the area. And yes, I meant Joe. he is still involved with KTA right?

1000 posts on Burke, probably the most press by a significant factor our sleepy NEK friend has ever gotten. Glad to have found the site and added my chirps.


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## xwhaler (Feb 24, 2014)

I look fwd to skiing Burke in March. Had hoped to go to Trout River for a late lunch on the way home Sunday but realized in checking their site they are only open Friday and Sat night for dinner.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> would you really choose where to do the majority of your skiing based on a returned phone call? I get your logic, but BW could give me free tickets and i would still be bored there in an afternoon, no thanks.



My wife and children are upper-level-beginners, so the truth is that BW is a better fit for the next year or so as far as terrain is concerned.  Having said that, I am 75% sure that I will buy passes at Burke if for no other reason that its close proximity.  I am 15 minutes from Burke and 45 from BW.  And don't get me started on what a speed trap the entire town of Bethlehem is...


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> My wife and children are upper-level-beginners, so the truth is that BW is a better fit for the next year or so as far as terrain is concerned.



The point of serving upper level beginners/lower intermediates was brought up at Burke's "Envisioning Session" last Spring. http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ble-discussion?p=774881&viewfull=1#post774881   There is a pretty big leap going from the green terrain of the lower mountain to the difficult Blue terrain of the upper mountain. Who knows if a trailpod like this created off of a shortened Willoughby chair will ever happen, but it would be a really good addition to helping progress the skills of Burke skiers.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

That is exactly the type of thing I would love to see for my family as they progress.  I've taken them both up to the top, but it's more about getting down than building confidence at this stage.  A shorter Willoughby chair would be fantastic.  It can't be that hard to make a mid-chair exit if they wanted to.  They could even require that you get off at the midway point so they would not have to staff the top of the chair.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The point of serving upper level beginners/lower intermediates was brought up at Burke's "Envisioning Session" last Spring. http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ble-discussion?p=774881&viewfull=1#post774881   There is a pretty big leap going from the green terrain of the lower mountain to the difficult Blue terrain of the upper mountain. Who knows if a trailpod like this created off of a shortened Willoughby chair will ever happen, but it would be a really good addition to helping progress the skills of Burke skiers.



That would be nice.  IIRC I saw that the Willoughby ran last week for a day or two.  Must seem strange to have that lift sit idle.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

Ideally, they could extend the Sherburne Express to that part of the mountain with a mid-point unloading area at the chair's present terminus.  That would take advantage of the high speed quad since people aren't going to be as attracted to the slower Willoughby chair.  It will also keep the Willoughby chair as a backup for the Mid-Burke Express quad to the summit.

One other benefit is that it would be easier to get to the Mid-Burke Express quad from the Sherburne chair.  Right now you have to pole it to get to to the Mid-Burke chair.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

IMHO This would be pretty similar to Bretton Woods' West Mountain pod. 7-800' of moderately pitched vertical.  With some small glades mixed in.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

I just realized the flaw with my plan to extend the Sherburne chair.  It's not that realistic to put a mid-point unloading area in a detachable quad, is it?


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ideally, they could extend the Sherburne Express to that part of the mountain with a mid-point unloading area at the chair's present terminus. That would take advantage of the high speed quad since people aren't going to be as attracted to the slower Willoughby chair. It will also keep the Willoughby chair as a backup for the Mid-Burke Express quad to the summit.



Mid-unloading HSQ are rare and expensive.

The ride up the shortened Willoughby would be less than 6 minutes. That is pretty short.


That configuration would make it impossible to run laps on Lower Warrens, Lower Fox's Folly, and The Gap (i.e. half of the terrain in the pod) without having to take the slow road (aka High Meadows Pass) all the way back to the base lodge.

And although it sounds good on paper, “keeping the Willoughby as a backup for the Mid-Burke Express” has likely proven to be kind of an expensive luxury that I think has only been used twice(?) in three years. The Poma can serve the roll in a pinch for people trying to get to higher parts of the mtn and the rest would have to ski the short Willoughby until the MBE is fixed.





VTKilarney said:


> One other benefit is that it would be easier to get to the Mid-Burke Express quad from the Sherburne chair. Right now you have to pole it to get to the Mid-Burke chair.


 
Most people coming off the Sherburne are likely looking for Intermediate terrain (as long as they aren’t experts that were forced to buy their tickets at the base lodge  ). I think most would just hop right onto the W.Q., instead of making that flat traverse. A few laps there and then they can ski down Lower Warrens or cut over to McCarg’s/Open Slope to get to the MBE.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I just realized the flaw with my plan to extend the Sherburne chair.  It's not that realistic to put a mid-point unloading area in a detachable quad, is it?



It's doable.  Expensive, but doable.  Alta has an angle station on Collins.  Canyons has a mid-unload on the bubble.

It would not work that great though if you want folks to ski that particular "pod" because with a mid-unload folks would still have to ski to the bottom to do laps.  Whereas with the Willoughby truncated to that point folks could, theoretically, ski just that pod.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> It would not work that great though if you want folks to ski that particular "pod" because with a mid-unload folks would still have to ski to the bottom to do laps.  Whereas with the Willoughby truncated to that point folks could, theoretically, ski just that pod.


That's a very good point.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> It's doable.  Expensive, but doable.  Alta has an angle station on Collins.  Canyons has a mid-unload on the bubble.
> 
> It would not work that great though if you want folks to ski that particular "pod" because with a mid-unload folks would still have to ski to the bottom to do laps.  Whereas with the Willoughby truncated to that point folks could, theoretically, ski just that pod.



Stop plagiarizing me  :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I just realized the flaw with my plan to extend the Sherburne chair.  It's not that realistic to put a mid-point unloading area in a detachable quad, is it?



It could be done, but it would be expensive.  I've never seen a two stage hsq, but there are two stage gondolas out there.  A second lift probably makes more sense though.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 24, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> It could be done, but it would be expensive.  I've never seen a two stage hsq, but there are two stage gondolas out there.



Breckenridge has a 2 stage HSG; the Peak 8 super connect.  The mid station also has angle, so I'm pretty sure it's a 2 stage like the Skyeship at Killington


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Breckenridge has a 2 stage HSG; the Peak 8 super connect.  The mid station also has angle, so I'm pretty sure it's a 2 stage like the Skyeship at Killington



Yes it is two stage. However, no matter what way you try to angle it, a two stage chair makes no sense in this location at Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yes it is two stage. However, no matter what way you try to angle it, a two stage chair makes no sense in this location at Burke.


Agreed.  I forgot that this would not allow you to load at the base of the pod.  It definitely does not make sense for that reason alone.

I still like the idea of adding a mid-point unloading area to the Willoughby chair and only allowing skiers to go that far.  This keeps Willoughby as a backup to the Mid-Burke chair if needed.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

A mid-unload for the Willoughby would work.  Heck, if they were really interested, they could have it be a mid-unload/mid-load and offer the lift as a downloading/uploading option for early season skiing :idea:


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Heck, if they were really interested, they could have it be a mid-unload/mid-load and offer the lift as a downloading/uploading option for early season skiing :idea:


Again, something that sounds good on paper but that side of the mountain is usually the first to melt out in the Spring. If they were really determined to create an early/late season upper mtn terrain pod, the lift would need to be on the East Bowl side.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Again, something that sounds good on paper but that side of the mountain is usually the first to melt out in the Spring. If they were really determined to create an early/late season upper mtn terrain pod, the lift would need to be on the East Bowl side.



I guess so, I was thinking early season in particular.....since the main snowmaking runs are over there.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I just realized the flaw with my plan to extend the Sherburne chair.  It's not that realistic to put a mid-point unloading area in a detachable quad, is it?



Very easily done. Notice it's only the upside of the lift that detaches.

Le Masif, Quebec.



edit: In this case they use the mid-station for mostly uploading but it could easily be configured for unloading, loading or both.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2014)

Another option to the lower intermediate skier/rider market was another "back to the future" solution that was seriously explored by Northern Star right before they went under and that is to install a fixed grip chair on the former "Dipper Poma" line.  In fact I think I suggested that it might be the new home of the (former) Bonnie Quad or Jet Triple.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 25, 2014)

On another note, Burke is making snow on Upper Willoughby. They must be trying to cover up some ice.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 25, 2014)

Considering that the peak vacation week just ended, that's great to see that they are still willing to turn on the snow guns.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 24, 2014)

I want to praise Burke for keeping the lifts open until 5:00 PM on the weekends.  We made full use of the extended time this weekend.

My family bit the bullet and purchased Burke passes for next year.  Even during the ride to Burke we were still debating purchasing passes at Bretton Woods.  It was that close of a call.  The terrain at Bretton Woods is better suited to my less experienced family.  But in the end we opted for the closer mountain and lighter crowds.  Interestingly enough, if Bretton Woods continues to offer free passes to youths with seasonal ski rental packages (which is what we get for our children), it would have been $400 or so cheaper for my family to get passes at Bretton Woods.  One reason we got the Burke passes is that we can still ski as a family at Bretton Woods for $50 (all-in) on Sunday afternoons by using the local resident discount - as long as the children indeed get a free pass with their 2014/2015 seasonal rentals.


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## oldtimer (Mar 24, 2014)

The skiing was excellent this weekend and the extra hour was fabulous on Sunday afternoon in the sun whne the wind had finally given up.  The message boards say 5pm closing on weekends now until closing day.  It was appreciated.




VTKilarney said:


> I want to praise Burke for keeping the lifts open until 5:00 PM on the weekends.  We made full use of the extended time this weekend.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2014)

Somebody mentioned seeing a QBurke van the other day, and was wondering what it was for.  Here is your answer:
http://www.skiburke.com/plan-a-visit/services/shuttle-service/

From the airport, for a family, it really isn't competitive with a rental car.  For local purposes, I suppose this would be really handy for a family that is not all skiers.  The skiers could take the Burke shuttle and leave the family car for other family members who want to do something other than skiing.  Besides that situation, I'm not sure how many people make it to the area without a car.  Perhaps it is very popular with students at Lyndon State College.

Burke has made some good decisions lately that indicate they are concerned with the overall experience and not just saving every penny possible.  Extending lift hours on weekends is a great example.

I'm all for saving money - and I don't fault management for confronting the need to do so, but I have always said that the cuts should be smart cuts.  They should not undermine the customer's experience.  Annoyed customers won't return.  It seems that this lesson is sinking in.

A question:  Does Burke just have one groomer for the whole mountain?  I'm thinking that they do, but I am not sure.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Somebody mentioned seeing a QBurke van the other day, and was wondering what it was for.  Here is your answer:
> http://www.skiburke.com/plan-a-visit/services/shuttle-service/
> 
> From the airport, for a family, it really isn't competitive with a rental car.  For local purposes, I suppose this would be really handy for a family that is not all skiers.  The skiers could take the Burke shuttle and leave the family car for other family members who want to do something other than skiing.  Besides that situation, I'm not sure how many people make it to the area without a car.  Perhaps it is very popular with students at Lyndon State College.
> ...



I also heard about the shuttle.  

Agree on cost control. 

FWIW Ary has been very, very quiet lately.  So has Dad.  I think they *may* have learned a lesson or two after their PR disasters earlier this year.  

And IIRC they have 3 machines.  Normally they run 2 each night.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2014)

They groomed fourteen trails last night (see: http://www.skiburke.com/the-mountain/lifts-and-trails/trail-map/ )

There are some pretty significant omissions, such as Dipper Doodle, Deer Run, Big Dipper, Little Dipper, and Lower Willoughby.  This is why I have wondered if only one groomer is being put into service.  

The BMA Ecup started yesterday (and continues today) on Upper Dipper and Big Dipper, so that may have something to do with it.  But if the race did factor into grooming, I don't understand why they would groom Upper Dipper but not Big Dipper.

Since Upper Dipper and Big Dipper are closed to the public today, I cannot fathom why they failed to groom Lower Willoughby.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They groomed fourteen trails last night (see: http://www.skiburke.com/the-mountain/lifts-and-trails/trail-map/ )
> 
> There are some pretty significant omissions, such as Dipper Doodle, Deer Run, Big Dipper, Little Dipper, and Lower Willoughby.  This is why I have wondered if only one groomer is being put into service.
> 
> ...



FWIW in the past Burke's snowreporting left much to be desired.  

There could be many explanations as to why they did not groom those trails, assuming that they didn't.  Certainly it is cheaper to run one machine instead of two.  Another possibility could be the other operators were not available or the weather prevented them from starting sooner.  

It's anyone's guess.


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2014)

EB-5 visas may runout soon...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/rich-chinese-overwhelm-u-s--visa-program-181413597.html


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 27, 2014)

Cannon's ski report today says "limited grooming due to high winds."   Perhaps QB had the same issue.


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## oldtimer (Mar 27, 2014)

We may be over thinking Burke's grooming report.  It is often not a true and accurate report of what was done overnight. for instance reporting only one section of the Dippers groomed. I have never seen them stop grooming 1/2 way up.

 ALSO-   during the week, there is often no need to groom most of the non-primaries.  All 10 people skiing didn't really mess up the work done 2 nights before.  I expect Dipper Doodle was skied less than 40 times yesterday. 




DoublePlanker said:


> Cannon's ski report today says "limited grooming due to high winds."   Perhaps QB had the same issue.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> We may be over thinking Burke's grooming report.  It is often not a true and accurate report of what was done overnight. for instance reporting only one section of the Dippers groomed. I have never seen them stop grooming 1/2 way up.
> 
> ALSO-   during the week, there is often no need to groom most of the non-primaries.  All 10 people skiing didn't really mess up the work done 2 nights before.  I expect Dipper Doodle was skied less than 40 times yesterday.



Exactly.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2014)

They have just announced their Burke-only pass rate for 2014/2015.  The price is reduced.  It is now $499.  This is $200 less than the regular Judge Pass and $150 cheaper than the adult family-rate Judge Pass.

The Burke-only pass goes on sale March 29th.  It is not clear if you get free skiing for the rest of the year.  You definitely do with the Judge Pass.  The Burke-only pass also comes with two 50% off vouchers to use during the 2014/2015 season.

I got the Judge Pass in order to get the free skiing for the remainder of this year.  (And the extra $$$ for the Judge Pass will definitely be covered in free skiing this year.)  Now that I have a pass for 2014/2015, I am not sure that I will get the Judge Pass for 2015/2016.  I'll have to see how many times I get up to Jay next winter.  Since Jay opens earlier and closes later, it still may be worth the upgrade to the Judge Pass.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2014)

I was able to confirm that they have had two groomers running overnight.  Each groomer runs for a single eight hour shift.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They have just announced their Burke-only pass rate for 2014/2015.  The price is reduced.  It is now $499.  This is $200 less than the regular Judge Pass and $150 cheaper than the adult family-rate Judge Pass.
> 
> The Burke-only pass goes on sale March 29th.  It is not clear if you get free skiing for the rest of the year.  You definitely do with the Judge Pass.  The Burke-only pass also comes with two 50% off vouchers to use during the 2014/2015 season.
> 
> I got the Judge Pass in order to get the free skiing for the remainder of this year.  (And the extra $$$ for the Judge Pass will definitely be covered in free skiing this year.)  Now that I have a pass for 2014/2015, I am not sure that I will get the Judge Pass for 2015/2016.  I'll have to see how many times I get up to Jay next winter.  Since Jay opens earlier and closes later, it still may be worth the upgrade to the Judge Pass.



Two vouchers for Jay or for Burke?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2014)

I have "copy-pasted" the text from their email, including any typos:

SEASON PASSES       
By now you know that 2014/15 Judge Season Passes are on sale, and that purchasing before May 12th will get you the best price. A Judge Pass purchased now also allows you to ski or ride the remainder of this season FREE! We'll talked about our schedule above, and it looks like our friends up at Jay Peak will be skiing and riding as long conditions permit, which should give you a whole slew of opportunities to pay off next season's pass before this season's lifts stop spinning. For those of you who prefer to purchase Q Burke Only Season Passes, we've got great news: we're moving the on-sale date up to THIS FRIDAY, March 29th at 9am. Adult Season Passes will be just $499 when purchased before May 12th, AND we'll also throw in two 50% off buddy tickets, valid any time next season, for Adult, Senior and College Passes purchased before May 12th. That's right, we're dropping the prices from last year, AND giving you a chance to bring your friends for half price. Not bad, eh?


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## fbrissette (Mar 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the the exact text from their email (any typos are from the original email):
> 
> SEASON PASSES
> By now you know that 2014/15 Judge Season Passes are on sale, and that purchasing before May 12th will get you the best price. A Judge Pass purchased now also allows you to ski or ride the remainder of this season FREE! We'll talked about our schedule above, and it looks like our friends up at Jay Peak will be skiing and riding as long conditions permit, which should give you a whole slew of opportunities to pay off next season's pass before this season's lifts stop spinning. For those of you who prefer to purchase Q Burke Only Season Passes, we've got great news: we're moving the on-sale date up to THIS FRIDAY, March 29th at 9am. Adult Season Passes will be just $499 when purchased before May 12th, AND we'll also throw in two 50% off buddy tickets, valid any time next season, for Adult, Senior and College Passes purchased before May 12th. That's right, we're dropping the prices from last year, AND giving you a chance to bring your friends for half price. Not bad, eh?




That's a good pricing although it sounds like the Burke only pass will not give you free skiing this season at Burke.  By March 29, the season will be almost done at Burke so the free skiing would not be a great incentive anyway.  The vouchers are likely for Burke only.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2014)

I'm curious to see what the Jay-only pass price will be.


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2014)

Can't say that I ever questioned a grooming report before!  When I get to a mountain - it is what it is!


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The point of serving upper level beginners/lower intermediates was brought up at Burke's "Envisioning Session" last Spring. http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ble-discussion?p=774881&viewfull=1#post774881   There is a pretty big leap going from the green terrain of the lower mountain to the difficult Blue terrain of the upper mountain. Who knows if a trailpod like this created off of a shortened Willoughby chair will ever happen, but it would be a really good addition to helping progress the skills of Burke skiers.



Wouldn't some of those trails eat up part of The Jungle and The Birches?  Not a good idea.  Plus I think keeping the beginner skiers on their own pod reduces risks of injury that are often experienced where advanced skiers and beginners share trials.  I am not even sure if the terrains pitch would even allow it!  My wife broke her shoulder at Burke because a beginner skier went right over her skis and he was skiing a harder blue snowplowing out of control!


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2014)

dlague said:


> Wouldn't some of those trails eat up part of The Jungle and The Birches? Not a good idea.


 

The two trails to the far skier’s left would cut into the bottom third of Birches. Jungle is untouched. Small sacrifice here. Wayne’s World, which is below the CCC road would also get taken out. However, after skiing that glade last weekend, it would not be a big loss.




dlague said:


> Plus I think keeping the beginner skiers on their own pod reduces risks of injury that are often experienced where advanced skiers and beginners share trials. I am not even sure if the terrains pitch would even allow it! My wife broke her shoulder at Burke because a beginner skier went right over her skis and he was skiing a harder blue snowplowing out of control!


 

I agree, the true beginners would stay on the green terrain of the lower mountain. This “pod” would be some of the easier intermediate terrain at Burke and would provide a stepping stone for the harder/steeper Blues on the rest of the mountain. This part of Burke is less steep than some of the pitches on the upper 1/3rd of the mountain and doesn’t have any blind rollovers.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2014)

In another thread, we were discussing Burke's decision to move the ski rental shop to the tent-like building next to the Sherburne lodge.

Is there any reason why the ski rental operation needed to be moved there?  I understand that downstairs may have been cramped, but they seemed to make do for many years.  What's craziest to me is that it was one stop shopping.  You could purchase your tickets and get your rental equipment in one place.  That made a lot of sense.  

Burke is in desperate need of better changing and brown bag lunch locations.  The people I have seen eating downstairs next to the ticket counter looked downright depressed to be doing so. 

I also overheard that they are going to have those BMX bikes with skis on the bottom available to rent next year.  (I can't remember the actual name.)  The rep dropped off a couple a few days ago.  At least one was in the rental facility, but not actually being rented yet.  I saw another out on the slopes.  They look fun for a couple of hours, but not much more than that.  I am not sure if they will be restricted to the lower mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2014)

The Burke website still says that construction will begin on the Hotel Burke in the spring of 2014.  Now that we are into April, has anyone heard any word of construction actually about to begin?


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## Masskier (Apr 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Burke website still says that construction will begin on the Hotel Burke in the spring of 2014.  Now that we are into April, has anyone heard any word of construction actually about to begin?



Construction is starting as soon as the snow melts and ground stabilizes.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Construction is starting as soon as the snow melts and ground stabilizes.



At this rate, that won't be until July


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Construction is starting as soon as the snow melts and ground stabilizes.


Is this a general assumption, or are you actually aware that this is going to happen?  Hopefully the latter.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2014)

Masskier usually has accurate knowledge about such things.  On another note, Burke moved its webcam over to the Pond Skimming pond. Looks like it is going to be a long pond this year.  http://skiburke.com/webcam


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Stegner just told WCAX that Burke is only 25% funded.  Masskier, want to revise your estimate?


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## the original trailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Considering the over-sized (not designed for the site) hotels, an adventure center with a questionable ability to succeed and create a year-round cash flow (like Jay' waterpark), a lot of bad publicity and internal issues (that are not known publically much) it's no wonder the Burke project is only 25% funded!


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Stegner just told WCAX that Burke is only 25% funded.  Masskier, want to revise your estimate?



No, (25% of the whole project??) The Burke project is a multi phase, multi year, multi hundred million dollar project.  Why would they want to be funding phases that will not be started for a while now.  At this time the focus is on phase l.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Jack, you keep dodging my question.  Do you have actual information or are you merely speculating?  A high level source told me that the money is not there to begin construction at Burke this year.   We know that one date has already fallen by the wayside.  There has been no talk of jobs starting up there, no construction trailer... Nothing.   I'm rooting for this project, but I'm looking for answers, not just cheerleading.

Also, in an interview about an unexpected delay, don't you think Stenger would have said that they were about to break ground at Burke if it were true?  Give him a little credit.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> No, (25% of the whole project??) The Burke project is a multi phase, multi year, multi hundred million dollar project.  Why would they want to be funding phases that will not be started for a while now.  At this time the focus is on phase l.



So then Burke is 25% funded.  That is a fact.  They also are WAY down in skier visits because of weather and because of some terrible PR moves.  That's another fact.  Seems to me that those are pretty compelling reasons to think that the thing is delayed.  I'm not selling condos either.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

We still don't know if it's 25% of the whole.  Jack merely assumed that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We still don't know if it's 25% of the whole.  Jack merely assumed that.



I think that Bill would have said "we're going ahead with the hotel" instead of saying "Burke is 25% funded."  Especially since they were probing into why things are not moving forward and he was trying to be optimistic/diplomatic.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that Bill would have said "we're going ahead with the hotel" instead of saying "Burke is 25% funded."  Especially since they were probing into why things are not moving forward and he was trying to be optimistic/diplomatic.


Anyone with a just half a brain would come to the same conclusion - at least if they didn't have a competing agenda.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Anyone with a just half a brain would come to the same conclusion - at least if they didn't have a competing agenda.



I'm glad that you think I have at least half a brain!  :lol:  My wife might disagree.


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So then Burke is 25% funded.  That is a fact.  They also are WAY down in skier visits because of weather and because of some terrible PR moves.  That's another fact.  Seems to me that those are pretty compelling reasons to think that the thing is delayed.  I'm not selling condos either.



They are not way down in skier visits.  They had a real strong 2nd half of the season.  The first half was down for most areas


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We still don't know if it's 25% of the whole.  Jack merely assumed that.



I assumed that, Really??


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> They are not way down in skier visits.  They had a real strong 2nd half of the season.  The first half was down for most areas



Was it enough to make up for a 40% loss?  I doubt it.  Christmas, MLK, and President's were all off from what I heard.  They did have a good "second half" I'm sure, but as you well know after President's Week business does fall off significantly.


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Jack, you keep dodging my question.  Do you have actual information or are you merely speculating?  A high level source told me that the money is not there to begin construction at Burke this year.   We know that one date has already fallen by the wayside.  There has been no talk of jobs starting up there, no construction trailer... Nothing.   I'm rooting for this project, but I'm looking for answers, not just cheerleading.
> 
> Dodging your question??  You asked "... want to revise your estimate?" I  answered "No"  That's pretty direct.  Then the next question you asked  me was "  Do you have actual information or are you merely speculating?"  and my answer is Yes, I have actual information and No, I am not  speculating.  You stated that a high level source told you that the  money isn't there to start construction this year.  Really??, Cause  that's nothing new, that same rumor that's been circulating around Burke  all winter. Why don't you just ask your high level source when the  hotel is going to start?  I'm sure if he's high level I know him and you  would get the same answers.  The reality is no matter what Burke  supporter (cheerleader) says, it will be doubted.  So be patient and  over the summer go up and watch the construction.  FYI  the GC has been  hired and you won't see any job trailer until the snow melts and ground  stabilizing.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> I assumed that, Really??



Well, you said that you were refusing to revise your belief that construction would be starting this spring despite learning of Stenger's comment that Burke was only 25% funded. 

So it can only be one of two things:
1) You assumed that it was 25% of the whole and there are sufficient funds to commence Phase 1; or
2) You believe that Phase 1 is 25% funded but that they will nonetheless start construction this spring.

If it's #2, I seriously question your judgment.  Assuming you have a modicum of judgment, it seems fair to believe that you assumed it was 25% of the whole.

We obviously have conflicting information from our sources.  I am content to wait and see which one of us is able to produce more reliable information to this forum.

But answer just one question for me: Why would Stenger have passed on an opportunity to say that ground is about to be broken at Burke?  Stenger is a very smart man, so if you are correct there must have been a reason.  

The one possible answer that I can think of is that it is going forward with private (non EB-5) investment.  Do you believe this to be the case?


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Was it enough to make up for a 40% loss?  I doubt it.  Christmas, MLK, and President's were all off from what I heard.  They did have a good "second half" I'm sure, but as you well know after President's Week business does fall off significantly.



To date,  They are off very Little from last year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> VTKilarney said:
> 
> 
> > Jack, you keep dodging my question.  Do you have actual information or are you merely speculating?  A high level source told me that the money is not there to begin construction at Burke this year.   We know that one date has already fallen by the wayside.  There has been no talk of jobs starting up there, no construction trailer... Nothing.   I'm rooting for this project, but I'm looking for answers, not just cheerleading.
> ...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> To date,  They are off very Little from last year.



On March 15th, Vermont Business Magazine said that skier visits in Vermont were down 10% from the previous year.  This is an industry-wide statistic that may or may not reflect a particular mountain's fate.  The 10% figure is not as bad as it sounds, though, since last year was a banner year.


----------



## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Masskier said:
> 
> 
> > OK Masskier, let's relax.  This kind of questioning is nothing new .  A while back you really got called out for saying some pretty hyperbolic things and some grand claims that were not really true.  You came out and admitted that you have a significant business interest at Burke....and folks questioned if your claims were related to promoting that.  A few weeks back you were saying some crazy things...like that they will be skiing into June, etc.  Folks are really concerned about the mountain and to hear the main man saying that they had only 25% of the funds for Burke and that other projects are on hold seems to be 180 degrees different from what you are saying.
> ...


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, you said that you were refusing to revise your belief that construction would be starting this spring despite learning of Stenger's comment that Burke was only 25% funded.
> 
> So it can only be one of two things:
> 1) You assumed that it was 25% of the whole and there are sufficient funds to commence Phase 1; or
> ...



Why do you assume what you think I am assuming?  its a waste of time.

How  about #3.  Fund raising for Burke is going very well, They have raised  approx 25% of the project total, and they are breaking ground on the  hotel soon.   Why can't you assume  that to be true?    Instead of taking the opposite approach of every  little thing that comes out about Burke.  As I said everyone has heard the  same rumor that has been circulating all winter. 

We are lucky to have a Bill Stenger. As you known he has an incredible track record.  Listen to the video again. There is nothing he says that would indicate Burke is delayed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Why do you assume what you think I am assuming?  its a waste of time.
> 
> How  about #3.  Fund raising for Burke is going very well, They have raised  approx 25% of the project total, and they are breaking ground on the  hotel soon.   Why can't you assume  that to be true?.


Because, for a project that is already delayed, those statements cannot all be true.  It's really that simple.  I'm shocked that you can't understand this.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Pond skimming starts at 1 PM.  And its a long pond this year.   I have always given the best information that was available at the time.  That doesn't mean that priorities and time schedules never change.  I've been on the Board at BMA for several years, and I have had a close relationship and a development partnership with Burke since 2004.  So I do have some insights of what is going on here.  I get tired of the bad information that is given out by people who say they have sources that know.    Ok one more post and then off to pond skimming and then to open house.



So theses sources said this:



Masskier said:


> Conditions continue to be great.  I haven't seen this much snow pack this late, in a long time.  I hope they spin the lifts on weekends to May.



Come on.  You know that Burke has NEVER been open past the middle of April...and even that is a rare exception.  



Masskier said:


> Why do you assume what you think I am assuming?  its a waste of time.
> 
> How  about #3.  Fund raising for Burke is going very well, They have raised  approx 25% of the project total, and they are breaking ground on the  hotel soon.   Why can't you assume  that to be true?    Instead of taking the opposite approach of every  little thing that comes out about Burke.  As I said everyone has heard the  same rumor that has been circulating all winter.



So you went from saying that "they are definitely starting on the hotel this spring" to "they are breaking ground on the hotel soon".  So you agree that there is reason to believe that things are indeed delayed?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

It gives me no pleasure to say this, but we need to clarify one thing.   While Stenger has proven to be a visionary at raising and spending other people's money, it remains to be seen if he has the skills to pay it back.  Until he can prove that he can, it stands to reason that investors may look more critically at his projects - for better or for worse.

Also, the best way to attract investors, whether it's selling condos or EB-5 investments, is to have a track record of honesty.  Assuring results that don't wind up being delivered does not build faith in management.  Cheerleading can ultimately work against the mountain if it distorts reality.  Enthusiasm is fine.  Fact distortion is not.


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Because, for a project that is already delayed, those statements cannot all be true.  It's really that simple.  I'm shocked that you can't understand this.



Oh, I can understand it all right..  Look, I am saying that Burke is moving forward with their development.  You disagree.  Thats fine we don't have to agree.  I just find it interesting how some look for any info they can find to doubt the realities of what is happening.  ie.. aren't you the one that suggested that Burke wasn't going to open next year cause they change the way they were marketing the season passes.  Thats quite a stretch.  How about this.  Burke has never been in a better or stronger position that it is today. Think about that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> How about this.  Burke has never been in a better or stronger position that it is today. Think about that.



Hmmmm.....you said that when Ginn ran it.  And what happened to them?


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So theses sources said this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on TTB,  I know that you are a skilled Atty and can make an argument for any side. But is this really relative?


----------



## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Hmmmm.....you said that when Ginn ran it.  And what happened to them?



Yea that is true.  Look at the $ Ginn (lubert Adler) pored into Burke.  Burke wouldn't be where it is today without that investment.


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

Ginn  Lubert Adler was the biggest game changer that Burke had


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> ie.. aren't you the one that suggested that Burke wasn't going to open next year cause they change the way they were marketing the season passes.  Thats quite a stretch.  How about this.



I never said that.  I merely asked if QBurke, a business that has adopted a hotel building strategy, and had missed goals, was going to throw in the towel.  I asked this before buying passes and have purchased passes since then.  It was a fair question.  I never thought that a mere question would be offensive to you.  

It is quite simple. I am on record suggesting that the hotel construction will not commence prior to the beginning of summer. You have stated unequivocally that it will. Let's just see who was proven to be correct.

I'd love to place a friendly bet, if you are willing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Come on TTB,  I know that you are a skilled Atty and can make an argument for any side. But is this really relative?



I'll be honest and say I have no idea what you are saying.  Relative?  Sure it is.  I merely quoted verbatim to show that you're saying things left and right.  You haven't responded.  



Masskier said:


> Yea that is true.  Look at the $ Ginn (lubert Adler) pored into Burke.  Burke wouldn't be where it is today without that investment.



No doubt that Burke is better off.  That's not the point.  I remember you CROWING every single little thing they did and making some pretty ridiculous statements that folks really took you to task for.  You also were saying that they were the best thing since sliced bread.  My overall point is that Ginn is gone...long gone.  What they did was simply not sustainable.  Do you know how much red they had their first year?  Millions.  And Lubert Adler was looking for an exit plan and fast.  In no way was Burke "strong" per se.  It was struggling.  

I think again that folks here were cautiously optimistic.  We want to see Burke succeed.  Not because we're going to make a buck or two, but because we love the place (it's home for me).  You obviously do not have enough experience with Burke to understand why folks are skeptical.  

As said, we'll see what happens in a few weeks.  Folks are skeptical...we've been before.  And you've been on the other side and wrong.  When that has happened you disappeared for a while.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think again that folks here were cautiously optimistic.  We want to see Burke succeed.  Not because we're going to make a buck or two, but because we love the place (it's home for me).



You hit the nail right on the head.  Masskier, you need to understand that people in the Northeast Kingdom appreciate honesty.  You seem to mistake our well-founded concerns as an indication that we do not wish for Burke to succeed.  What you don't understand, is that we've been through five owners in about 25 years - four of whom have gone bankrupt.  The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy.  

I remember when Magic Mountain closed and a friend's condo had its value reduced by half literally overnight.  Nobody wants that to happen to Burke.  But right now that is a distinct possibility.  Burke needs to be smart, not just big.  I don't know the answers, but I do know that bullshitting the people that care about the mountain isn't an answer.  

Burke could wind up like Ascutney.   It could also wind up like Mad River Glen - a ski area that was on the verge of being lost forever that is now healthy thanks to creative solutions to a problem.  Just because we don't think along the lines of development at all costs, don't assume that we don't love that mountain.


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## Masskier (Apr 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I never said that.  I merely asked if QBurke, a business that has adopted a hotel building strategy, and had missed goals, was going to throw in the towel.  I asked this before buying passes and have purchased passes since then.  It was a fair question.  I never thought that a mere question would be offensive to you.
> 
> It is quite simple. I am on record suggesting that the hotel construction will not commence prior to the beginning of summer. You have stated unequivocally that it will. Let's just see who was proven to be correct.
> 
> I'd love to place a friendly bet, if you are willing.



You got to be kidding me.  You are asking me to gamble??  no thanks I don't gamble  Seems to me you said that after you bought your passes, but what difference does it make.  The point is with all of the tens of millions that has been invested at Burke and all of plans, designs and permits in hand, they are moving forward with their development.  You seem content in arguing that if they start June 22 instead of June 15 that it makes a difference.  You may be right, as it was said earlier they may not start till July.  would that really change anything?  So at least Im glad that you do think that they will build a hotel.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You got to be kidding me.  You are asking me to gamble??  no thanks I don't gamble  Seems to me you said that after you bought your passes, but what difference does it make.  The point is with all of the tens of millions that has been invested at Burke and all of plans, designs and permits in hand, they are moving forward with their development.  You seem content in arguing that if they start June 22 instead of June 15 that it makes a difference.  You may be right, as it was said earlier they may not start till July.  would that really change anything?  So at least Im glad that you do think that they will build a hotel.



It's really hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps moving the goal posts.  Your original "insider information" was that construction would begin just as soon as the ground was solid.  You now concede that this is not at all a certainty.  And by the way, it's not gambling if you know you are going to win.

I didn't say that I believe the hotel will be built.  Here is what I currently believe: (a) They do not have sufficient funds in place to begin construction of the hotel; (b) It remains to be seen whether they will ever have sufficient funds in place.  That is all I believe - and nothing more.

One again, I will let time determine which of us is more honest and/or more intelligent regarding Burke.  We'll chat on June 22nd.


----------



## Masskier (Apr 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It's really hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps moving the goal posts.  Your original "insider information" was that construction would begin just as soon as the ground was solid.  You now concede that this is not at all a certainty.  And by the way, it's not gambling if you know you are going to win.
> 
> I didn't say that I believe the hotel will be built.  Here is what I currently believe: (a) They do not have sufficient funds in place to begin construction of the hotel; (b) It remains to be seen whether they will ever have sufficient funds in place.  That is all I believe - and nothing more.
> 
> One again, I will let time determine which of us is more honest and/or more intelligent regarding Burke.  We'll chat on June 22nd.



You really don't have to make it this complicated.  Why don't you pick up the phone and call them yourself?  That is what I did.  They will be happy to talk to you, it's not like they are keeping this a secret.  That way you don't have to spread false rumors and you will be able to talk intelligently about Burke.  And the people who read this forum will have more reliable information.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You really don't have to make it this complicated.  Why don't you pick up the phone and call them yourself?  That is what I did.  They will be happy to talk to you, it's not like they are keeping this a secret.  That way you don't have to spread false rumors and you will be able to talk intelligently about Burke.  And the people who read this forum will have more reliable information.



I think the fact that you believe that this is a reliable and unbiased source of information is all we needed to know to assess the credibility of this information.  I can assure you that my source is more accurate than whomever picked up the phone at guest services.  Nothing can happen without my source knowing about it, let's just say that.  

Again, let's revisit this on June 22nd. No point in beating a dead horse prior to then.

I was able to get out this morning.  Conditions were unbelievable for this time of year.  Sad to see the season winding down.  Sadly, Little League tryouts got in the way of a longer day on the hill.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2014)

I guess Masskier has been banging this drum for a long time:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=785936&highlight=#post785936

And this gem from January, 2013:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=753981&highlight=#post753981

And even older:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...uad-to-the-top?p=568567&highlight=#post568567


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## xlr8r (Apr 6, 2014)

This season might have really hurt the Q BurQe project in the end.  All the mess during the first half of the season with the stupid name change, breaQing up with Qingdom Trails, and having low trail counts open until Februrary I think kept a lot of people away from Q BurQe.  While all other mountains had very good seasons, I would expect that Q BuQe (just a guess at this point) had only an average or below average season based on reports from others.  Who would want to invest in the project after the mess this season was for them at the start, especially now that there are plenty of other EB5 projects around to invest in.  The fact that only 25% of the project is currently funded is very telling, and not good news for the resort.  But they kind of have brought it upon themselves with all the outrageous claims they made when they bought the place.  Now reality has set in.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2014)

xlr8r said:


> This season might have really hurt the Q BurQe project in the end.  All the mess during the first half of the season with the stupid name change, breaQing up with Qingdom Trails, and having low trail counts open until Februrary I think kept a lot of people away from Q BurQe.



If that's the case it's really unfortunate that management allowed that to happen.  For as much frustration as I had earlier in the year, I have no complaints at all with management for the second half of the year.  They have made a lot of great decisions that have not been only about their bottom line.  For example:
1) Keeping the lifts open until 5:00 PM on weekends;
2) Making snow late into the season;
3) Staying open until April 13th.

Having said that, Burke is still Burke.  It's always hard to get people up to the mountain.  I am concerned that there seemed to be some fairly aggressive ticket discounting as the season rolled along.  At the end of the day, if they can't make money and they are losing their own money, they aren't going to stick around.  No matter how much infrastructure has been put into place over the past few years, the ski area is in serious danger of closing for good if nobody can figure out a way to prevent losing money even if that infrastructure has been put in place.  It's as simple as that.  That's one reason why I have been rooting for the hotel to be built - and why I have been upset that it has not yet been built and may not be in the near future.

IMHO, the real test will be next season.  We will find out if they get the kinks worked out and we'll find out if the hotel is about to open.  Based on how things turned around this year, I am upbeat in regard to the former, but not holding my breath on the latter.

The most pressing concern for me right now is that we are on the eve of biking season and there has been no announcement of improved relations with Kingdom Trails.  Hopefully something will happen soon.

It's sad to see this ski season end.  We were skiing on natural-snow trails today - April 6th!  While those trails probably won't make it to next weekend, there is still SO much snow up there.  The snowmaking trails have LOTS of life left in them.


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## Masskier (Apr 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the fact that you believe that this is a reliable and unbiased source of information is all we needed to know to assess the credibility of this information.  I can assure you that my source is more accurate than whomever picked up the phone at guest services.  Nothing can happen without my source knowing about it, let's just say that.
> 
> Again, let's revisit this on June 22nd. No point in beating a dead horse prior to then.
> 
> I was able to get out this morning.  Conditions were unbelievable for this time of year.  Sad to see the season winding down.  Sadly, Little League tryouts got in the way of a longer day on the hill.



Guest services???  Come on... your kidding right.  Look, its really quite  simple.  You have made some serious allegations about Burke in a public  forum.  Allegations that can impact people livelihoods both directly and indirectly in the form of future jobs..  I called and spoke to one of the owners.  I responded to your  direct questions with this information.  You questioned my statements and   called me out on it, Even wanted to make a bet with me...  You talk about  being honest and providing credible information in this forum. Well, when you make statements like you  have,  then you have the responsibility to substantiate what you are saying.  If not then you are just spreading worthless rumors.  So take a couple of minutes tomorrow and make the call.  You have nothing ton loose except to gain the truth.  If you need a name or number let me know.  In fact if you want I will even set up a conference call for you.


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## Masskier (Apr 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I guess Masskier has been banging this drum for a long time:
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=785936&highlight=#post785936
> 
> And this gem from January, 2013:
> ...



Thanks for the recap.  You have way to much time on your hands.  Everything I have said was the best information that was available at the time.  Its taken many years to get Burke where it is today and will take many more for its complete build out.


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## Masskier (Apr 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You hit the nail right on the head.  Masskier, you need to understand that people in the Northeast Kingdom appreciate honesty.  You seem to mistake our well-founded concerns as an indication that we do not wish for Burke to succeed.  What you don't understand, is that we've been through five owners in about 25 years - four of whom have gone bankrupt.  The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy.
> 
> I remember when Magic Mountain closed and a friend's condo had its value reduced by half literally overnight.  Nobody wants that to happen to Burke.  But right now that is a distinct possibility.  Burke needs to be smart, not just big.  I don't know the answers, but I do know that bullshitting the people that care about the mountain isn't an answer.
> 
> Burke could wind up like Ascutney.   It could also wind up like Mad River Glen - a ski area that was on the verge of being lost forever that is now healthy thanks to creative solutions to a problem.  Just because we don't think along the lines of development at all costs, don't assume that we don't love that mountain.




"  The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy.  " 

  Who was This??


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> "  The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy.  "
> 
> Who was This??



Ginn.  Other Ginn resorts were going bankrupt beginning in 2008.  Had it not been sold, Ginn's Burke holding was headed down the same path as those other resorts.  This is why Don Graham personally provided half of the financing for the Mid-Burke Express.  He knew that Ginn was looking for a way out even at that time, but believed that a HSQ was essential to facilitating a sale.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Allegations that can impact people livelihoods both directly and indirectly in the form of future jobs..  I called and spoke to one of the owners.



If, as you insist, construction is going to begin forthwith, some idiot voicing concerns on the Internet isn't going to make one bit of difference.  I should hope that Burke's operation is not nearly as fragile as you are suggesting.  I suggest that more damage is done by repeatedly assuring something that is never delivered.  But who cares as long as it helps to sell condos.  Shattered expectations are a lot less important once that check clears.

Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight?  Have you taken him to task?  I bet not.

I have no reason to doubt that Ary told you that construction will commence forthwith.  The fact that Ary said this does not, in and of itself, make it true.  

Here are the facts that we know:
1) The hotel project has been delayed from its original start date.
2) Stenger has stated that Burke is only 25% funded.
3) Stenger made not mention of a start date for construction.
4) Stenger stated this during an interview wherein he was providing reassurance after an announced delay in another EB-5 project, and was trying to suggest that things in EB-5 land were still very much on track.
5) Ground was broken on the Stateside Hotel project at Jay Peak on April 29, 2013.  
5) As of April 6th, there is no trailer or other tangible sign of pending activity at the Burke construction site.

These facts make me skeptical that construction will begin this spring.  I may be wrong.  I HOPE that I am wrong.  But given the fact that Stenger and Ary apparently seem to be suggesting two different things, it stands to reason that one of them may be incorrect.  While you seem to be willing to take whatever Ary says over whatever Stenger says, I am choosing a more cautious approach.  Given Burke's history, I am surprised that you would be critical of such an approach.

Again, we shall see come June 22nd who is correct.  You believe that construction will start as soon as the ground allows.  We will know quite soon if you are correct.  Of the two of us, you have a demonstrable history of providing ultimately false information regarding construction at Burke.  While you claim that you used the best information at the time, I am merely asking you to consider that your sources may not be ultimately accurate.  Your history bears this out.

Do I know when construction will start?  Nope.  But you have some real hutzpah taking me to task when you are the one who has a history of providing ultimately incorrect information.  At best, you are a pot calling a kettle black.  Again, I hope that you are correct and I am wrong.  But if hope dictated reality, I would have been riding an East Bowl HSQ this winter.


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## Masskier (Apr 6, 2014)

Did your source tell you this information?  Let me set the record straight about the Ginn era.  Ginn never had a controlling ownership interest in Burke.  They had a very minority ownership interest (20%)and was the owners (Lupert-Adler) development partner.  When Ginn went through their bankruptcy, The owners simply replaced Ginn with Crave Real Estate.  Burke did not have any exposer to Ginns other resort properties.  Ginn hasn't been around for a while (5-6 years) and certainly had no part in the sale to the current owners.  There's no question that Burke needed a HSQ to the Summit in order to be viable and with the help and generosity of Mr Graham it happened.   And because of the new lift Burke was able to attract an owner with ski resort experience.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2014)

You guys should just email each other.


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## fbrissette (Apr 7, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> You guys should just email each other.



What's the fun in that ?


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## burski (Apr 7, 2014)

It will be interesting to see what happens this summer - I have heard mixed messages at the resort.  The article below may also be somewhat telling from  VT Business Magazine - they have been giving monthly or quarterly updates regarding all of the NEK / EB5 projects since they were announced.  The last several updates have all included news about Burke (even thought there was no news).  This update from last Friday makes no mention of any Burke related activity (when apparently there is big news around the corner...), either someone is continueing to drop the ball or something is up..

http://vermontbiz.com/news/april/ne...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-e85c807b6d-286333017


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## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If, as you insist, construction is going to  begin forthwith, some idiot voicing concerns on the Internet isn't going  to make one bit of difference.  I should hope that Burke's operation is  not nearly as fragile as you are suggesting.  I suggest that more  damage is done by repeatedly assuring something that is never delivered.   But who cares as long as it helps to sell condos.  Shattered  expectations are a lot less important once that check clears.
> 
> Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and  making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight?   Have you taken him to task?  I bet not.
> 
> ...



Well written, however I certainly  disagree with much you have to say.  Yes, spreading unsubstantiated  rumors do more harm than good.  You state, " repeatedly assuring  something that is never delivered".  Never, is a long time.  Just look  at all of the tens of millions that has been invested at Burke since  2005.  Some day when you are riding up that lift in the East Bowl area  you may wonder how it became reality.  It was certainly not built by the  Nay Sayers.

The Comment about the Condos " who cares".  Well,  there is a lot of people who care. Obviously your not one of them. I  personlly know the vast majority of owners on the mountain and I don't  know one that has a "Shatterd expectation"  Do you?  I doubt that you do  as most people love thier 2nd homes.  I'm not even sure  why you  brought this up except to maybe insiuate that I don't care and would do  anything to sell Condos.  Well obviously you know my first name but have  no clue of what I am about or my involvement with Burke since the early  2000's. 

"Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and  making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight?   Have you taken him to task?  I bet not." 

Well your wrong.  I met  with Bill last month.  Why would he annouce a hard start date?  If he's  off by a little if makes headlines.  Look what happen at Stateside.   He's delayed 3 months (waiting for his waste water and final act 250) 

"I have no reason to doubt that Ary told you that construction will  commence forthwith.  The fact that Ary said this does not, in and of  itself, make it true."

True,  This is a major development, there  could always be a last minute delay.  Look what happend last year.   However, as of right now its Full speed ahead. 

"Here are the facts that we know:
1) The hotel project has been delayed from its original start date.
2) Stenger has stated that Burke is only 25% funded.
3) Stenger made not mention of a start date for construction.
4) Stenger stated this during an interview wherein he was providing  reassurance after an announced delay in another EB-5 project, and was  trying to suggest that things in EB-5 land were still very much on  track.
5) Ground was broken on the Stateside Hotel project at Jay Peak on April 29, 2013.  
5) As of April 6th, there is no trailer or other tangible sign of pending activity at the Burke construction site"

Agree  with one and two only.    3 and 4, This is a perfect example of a  pessimistic mind set.  Lets just look at it form a neutral point of view  and take if for what it says.  The EB 5 projects are very much are  track.  5, This has nothing to do with the Burke development  irregardless when it started.  and the other 5.  Where would you suggest  they put a job trailor?  on top of the snow?  in the parking lot? (they  still have lifts turning next weekend) in the mud?

"These facts make me skeptical that construction will begin this spring.   I may be wrong.  I HOPE that I am wrong.  But given the fact that  Stenger and Ary apparently seem to be suggesting two different things,  it stands to reason that one of them may be incorrect.  While you seem  to be willing to take whatever Ary says over whatever Stenger says, I am  choosing a more cautious approach.  Given Burke's history, I am  surprised that you would be critical of such an approach."

You  say, based on the logic you laid out, that they are suggesting  differrent things.  I don't agree with your logic no more than you will  agree with mine.  However I have spoken to both Bill and Ary and they  are very much on the same page.  I'm not criticle of taking a cautious  approach.  Cautious is good. I'm criticle of people spreading rumors.

So June 22nd is your date?  My initial answer to your question was, They are starting as soon as the snow melts and ground stabilizes.  That's the owners current plan.  You stated that the hotel is not funded, and will probably never be funded.  So therefore don't believe the hotel will ever be built.  So this will be an exciting summer for Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You stated that the hotel is not funded, and will probably never be funded.  So therefore don't believe the hotel will ever be built.



I don't want to rehash the same arguments, so I will leave things be.  I did, however, want to yet again clarify that the only thing I have "stated" is what I have heard from others and mere opinions based on those statements.  I do not claim to know anything definitively.  I'm trying to read the tea leaves and nothing more.

If my suspicions are proven to be incorrect, I will do two things:
1) Freely admit that my suspicions were incorrect; and
2) Be VERY happy for Burke Mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

burski said:


> The article below may also be somewhat telling from  VT Business Magazine - they have been giving monthly or quarterly updates regarding all of the NEK / EB5 projects since they were announced.



On October 2, 2013 the Jay Peak Area Chamber of Commerce posted this EB-5 update regarding Burke on their website:

_Construction will begin on the new five-story hotel at Q Burke Mountain Resort in early Spring. Bill Stenger announced that he and his construction team have made a decision to delay ground breaking this Fall to avoid potential weather setbacks. Although the project could have started after the final permits were received in August, they based the decision on their experience with recent winter construction projects at Jay Peak Resort. He predicted that the construction team will make up time during the 2014 construction season._

The contact person is Jay's EB-5 Project Manager.  

Apparently everything is in place and this was solely a weather based decision.  I guess if I look out of my window I'll see trucks rolling through on their way to the mountain any day now.  After all, construction will commence in early spring.


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## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't want to rehash the same arguments, so I will leave things be.  I did, however, want to yet again clarify that the only thing I have "stated" is what I have heard from others and mere opinions based on those statements.  I do not claim to know anything definitively.  I'm trying to read the tea leaves and nothing more.
> 
> If my suspicions are proven to be incorrect, I will do two things:
> 1) Freely admit that my suspicions were incorrect; and
> 2) Be VERY happy for Burke Mountain.



Fine, we can finally agree on something.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> On October 2, 2013 the Jay Peak Area Chamber of Commerce posted this EB-5 update regarding Burke on their website:
> 
> _Construction will begin on the new five-story hotel at Q Burke Mountain Resort in early Spring. Bill Stenger announced that he and his construction team have made a decision to delay ground breaking this Fall to avoid potential weather setbacks. Although the project could have started after the final permits were received in August, they based the decision on their experience with recent winter construction projects at Jay Peak Resort. He predicted that the construction team will make up time during the 2014 construction season._
> 
> ...



The previous two springs they would have been able to start. This spring, not so much. Even construction projects in the valley in Lyndonville are on hold until the weather "improves".


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## Big Wave Dave (Apr 7, 2014)

whoo boy, this is a good one. I have been gone too long!

not going to get in the weeds here but this weekends Cal Record article about the Stateside delays said ground is breaking on the hotel this May. Quote from the online edition

"The delay has no effect on other plans as part of the Northeast Kingdom Economic Development Initiative projects in Newport City and Burke, Stenger said.

Stenger and partners are expecting the Newport City Development Review Board to consider a permit application for a site plan for the proposed AnC Bio Vermont research and manufacturing plant at the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park, the former Bogner site in Newport City.

The planned construction of two lodges at Q Burke Mountain is going ahead as scheduled, he said, with preparations for site and foundation work in May."

So from the standpoint of interested passive observer, seems like Masskier may in fact have accurate information. I do hope so.

But lets have a Kumbaya moment here though- the skiing is so unbelievably good at Burke right now we should all be away from our computers and on the slopes. Yesterday was just unreal. Cant wait for the next sunny day.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

The fact that he gave an actual time for commencement of construction is very encouraging indeed.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Oddly enough, DEW Construction routinely announces on their website when they are awarded a contract for the construction of Jay EB-5 projects.  I found no mention on their website of being awarded the Burke Hotel contract.  Is someone else doing the construction?  If it's DEW, this is yet another example of the muddled message that we've been receiving.

There is a mention of the project here:
http://www.peakcm.com/public/projects/Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center.cfm

Does this suggest that DEW has been replaced by Peak?


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## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

 

 
 




Based on VTKilarney advice and also since this was moved behind the pay wall, I have removed this article.  To read the whole version go to this link  http://caledonianrecord.com/FormLay...SubSectionID=145&ArticleID=109699&TM=56445.77


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

The plot thickens...

It certainly appears that Peak is now the general contractor.  In the "news" section of the website, they have a May 22, 2013 entry soliciting bids for the Q Burke hotel project.  (see: http://www.peakcm.com/public/news.cfm ) Bids were due on June 7, 2013.

They have not posted any further news regarding Burke.  For those who are knowledgeable about these things, would it be standard to not re-open bidding if the project was delayed for many months?  Assuming the bidders are not bound to a nearly year old quote, do they just negotiate updated terms?  Or is this a sign of a lack of progress?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Masskier,

I'm no copyright expert, but I suspect that re-publishing an entire article like that goes well beyond fair use.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

And to add fuel to the fire, PeakCM announced on February 2, 2013 that Earl Rand was hired to work on the Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center project and to assist the project team with the bidding process, contract award, scheduling, and ongoing management of the project through to completion. 

His LinkedIn page says that he left PeakCM some time during 2013.  After he left PeakCM, his next employment is listed as a job with Green Mountain Drywall.  He didn't start that job until some time in 2014.

On the other hand, PeakCM's website says that they are accepting resumes for project managers and assistant project managers.


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## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Oddly enough, DEW Construction routinely announces on their website when they are awarded a contract for the construction of Jay EB-5 projects.  I found no mention on their website of being awarded the Burke Hotel contract.  Is someone else doing the construction?  If it's DEW, this is yet another example of the muddled message that we've been receiving.
> 
> There is a mention of the project here:
> http://www.peakcm.com/public/projects/Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center.cfm
> ...



Peak has always been the Construction Manager


----------



## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> I'm no copyright expert, but I suspect that re-publishing an entire article like that goes well beyond fair use.



Really,   Well Mark Smith, the owner of the paper is a friend and neighbor of mine..


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Really,   Well Mark Smith, the owner of the paper is a friend and neighbor of mine..



Then it's more upsetting that you would violate copyright when it involves a friend and neighbor.  And since Todd Smith is now running the newspaper, it would have been much more appropriate to speak with him before assuming that you had blanket authority to reprint the newspaper's works as a "friend and neighbor" of the Publisher.

Honestly, I didn't think that a suggestion to avoid reprinting copyrighted material in its entirety would be controversial.  But whatever...  FYI, the better thing to do would be to link to the article.


----------



## Masskier (Apr 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Then it's more upsetting that you would violate copyright when it involves a friend and neighbor.  And since Todd is now running the newspaper, it would have been much more appropriate to speak with him before assuming that you had blanket authority to reprint the newspaper's works as a "friend and neighbor" of the Publisher.
> 
> Honestly, I didn't think that a suggestion to avoid reprinting copyrighted material in its entirety would be controversial.  But whatever...



Thanks for the advice.  Is that really what we are discussing now.  That article is part of the free section of their web site for anyone to read.  If in fact I am wrong,  you have my apologies.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Thanks for the advice.  Is that really what we are discussing now.  That article is part of the fee section of their web site for anyone to read.  If in fact I am wrong,  you have my apologies.



That's why I was suggesting that you just link to it.  I'm seriously not trying to argue.  I'm just appreciative that the Caledonian puts articles online.  I want that to continue.  Since they put ads on the website (including, when I looked, ads from three local realtors), I want them to receive the revenue they deserve for writing those articles.  That will encourage them to continue to put articles online.  The newspaper industry has fallen on some very tough times, so if you are friends with Mark I am sure you can appreciate this reality.  The Caledonian Record has been creative in their use of online publishing, which is one reason why they are still a viable newspaper.  

It's also a good thing for the advertisers to have their ads seen.  It helps our NEK economy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

Masskier,

Back to the subject at hand.  Is there anything to be read into the fact that PeakCM has not advertised a new round of bidding on their website?  I am seriously ignorant as to this.  How common is it to not re-open bidding if construction is delayed for several months?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 7, 2014)

you 2 should settle this Highway Star Ski-off style.  Your endless bickering sucks...


----------



## Savemeasammy (Apr 7, 2014)

jimmywilson69 said:


> you 2 should settle this Highway Star Ski-off style...



I'm not following this this thread, but I do agree that a ski off is in order.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

jimmywilson69 said:


> you 2 should settle this Highway Star Ski-off style.



I'd lose!  :razz:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2014)

jimmywilson69 said:


> you 2 should settle this Highway Star Ski-off style.  Your endless bickering sucks...



Top of Warren's Way at High Noon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2014)

So twenty more pages later....

It's clear that none of us really know for sure.  

There's going to be at least some delay due to snow.  Beyond that we will see.  Hope that it is done smartly and using input from the Burke regulars instead of a "one size fits all" job that will look out of place.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2014)

I think this thread may have eclipsed all epic Cannon should be leased threads at this point.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2014)

Masskier,

I'm still hoping you will answer the question I asked in post #1112.


----------



## Masskier (Apr 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> Back to the subject at hand.  Is there anything to be read into the fact that PeakCM has not advertised a new round of bidding on their website?  I am seriously ignorant as to this.  How common is it to not re-open bidding if construction is delayed for several months?



There are lots of factors to consider.  I don't want to 2nd guess Peak.  However if it was me and I was happy with the team of subs that I had put together, I would simple get updated bids.  The subs that come in line with where they were before I would not rebid.  If there were any major changes then I would rebid that portion.  Again that is the way I do it on much smaller projects.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

Well Masskier, I told you that I would apologize if I was incorrect.  You insisted that construction on the hotel would begin this spring as soon as the ground allowed.  You insisted that you have credible inside information.  I should have listened.  I should have ignored the multiple incorrect statements you made in the past.

So as a man who lives up to his word, I officially apol.... oh.... wait...  hold on...

Burke just changed their website!  They scrubbed the reference to the project commencing this spring.
The cached version, from Apr 7th,  is here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c....com/our-direction/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

And as of today, take a look at the same page:
http://www.skiburke.com/our-direction/

Now they say the project is "starting soon."

Pray tell, what explanation do your "sources" (or is it "imagination") give for this deliberate change?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 9, 2014)

...and your point is?

It's spring 2014, and they say "scheduled to begin soon", so what is the major difference/change you are referring to? It's not like they said "postponed" or anything. 

Seems like you are just here to stir up an non-existent issue, instead of contributing something useful. At least tell us you your "Source of Information" is to lend some credibilty to your claims. Masskier said his was a phone call with one of the "Owners", so who's yours?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

You honestly believe that a purposeful removal of the statement that construction will begin this spring has no meaning?

I am not revealing my source because doing so could have negative consequences for that person.  As I have stated before, construction could not begin without this person's knowledge.  This person would also know if construction is delayed.

You should infer from my arrogance that my source is accurate.  That's why I have taken so much exception to the spread of misinformation.  We here in the NEK value truth.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Apr 9, 2014)

VT Kilarney- you are putting an unnamed source against someone who has offered a conference call to  and also has the NEK's paper of record on his side. Forget your sarcasm (I get your point, but...chill) and let us know then- what in fact is going on? far more helpful than engaging in a crusade based on semantics. Write a letter to the Cal Record and tell them to stop spreading misinformation if thats really the way you feel.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 9, 2014)

I have a feeling we'll know more in a month


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

Big Wave Dave, Jay Peak management also said that everything was in place for the Burke hotel - permits and financing - and that the delay was solely a weather related decision.  Well, here we are and the website about the project was just changed to remove the reference to commencing construction this spring.  So I don't see why anyone is blindly following what the ski area management says. common sense ought to be more important than blind faith.

I think the reason this is so frustrating is that a few weeks ago I was thinking about the project and became concerned.  In about ten total minutes I was able to put the pieces together.  And I've go no connection to Burke.  I don't work there, I'm not a property owner there, and I have no connection to the school.  If a chump like me could follow the breadcrumbs, there is really no excuse for people in the know to have not followed those same breadcrumbs.

As I said earlier, I am rooting for Burke. Big time.  If I could choose to live near any mountain in Vermont, Burke would likely be at the top of my list.  It's an honor and a privilege to live so close to Burke.  If the hotel is built, it's one more element in making the mountain a viable business.  But I also want people to be able to trust the mountain's leadership.  This has been a trying year in that regard.  It would be nice if Ary would be honest about what is going on with the hotel.  That would be a step in restoring the local trust that he has lost.

I may ultimately be proven wrong, but as every day passes my confidence in my prediction grows by leaps and bounds.  There is no assurance that EB-5 will be extended past September, 2015 - so investors are going to want to know that the project will be completed by that time.  Tick tock...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I have a feeling we'll know more in a month


 I have a feeling that we won't know much more, sadly.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I have a feeling we'll know more in a month



Right.  

And the idea that you can call the owner and expect to get the real deal is very naïve.  They are walking a tightrope now that competition for EB-5 funds is so tight.  So they have to keep the cards close to the chest.  They also have to be diplomatic and reassuring especially since there have already been some major missteps.  

When the excavators show up call me.  But in the meantime it sounds like no news.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And the idea that you can call the owner and expect to get the real deal is very naïve.



And keep in mind that the Caledonian Record just reported what Stenger said.  They didn't do any sort of investigation into his comment.

Here is why I am very concerned:
1) You have a known delay in at least two projects (Burke Hotel and 85 condo unit at Jay). 
2) If the internet is to believed (big if), the exit strategy for Phase 1 investors at Jay is not even close to what they were initially led to believe.

If investors know (or believe) these two things, is future investment now compromised? My concern is that, if it is, we may have just passed a point of no return. I hope this is not the case.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If investors know (or believe) these two things, is future investment now compromised? My concern is that, if it is, we may have just passed a point of no return. I hope this is not the case.



If this scenario comes to fruition, it would be the latest case in Burke's long history of being just behind the 8 ball when it comes to development.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> If this scenario comes to fruition, it would be the latest case in Burke's long history of being just behind the 8 ball when it comes to development.



Something nobody wants.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2014)

In the April 10 Caledonian Record Ary confirms that hotel construction is delayed with no specific start date.  

The non-hotel projects are indefinitely delayed.  They will happen when the "mountain is ready for them."  (Hint to Ary: the mountain is ready.)  So the only reason they are delayed is because the mountain is not ready?  Right...

Masskier's insider info was wrong yet again.  Still want to set up that conference call?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> In the April 10 Caledonian Record Ary confirms that hotel construction is delayed with no specific start date.  The non-hotel projects are indefinitely delayed.



That sucks for Burke.  Major setback.  Hopefully they just need one more year of fundraising and don't throw in the towel.  The mountain obviously needs beds to make it in the long term.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2014)

So in an article that has not yet been released?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

The article is available to e-edition subscribers the night before the physical edition comes out.  

In the article Ary insists that the hotel will be built this year.   This is odd given that the delay was supposed to be weather related only.  Why the wait to break ground?  And how could it be built in less than nine months?  Perhaps he meant that construction would start this year.  

He says that skier visits were the same as last year but revenues were up by 10 percent.  I'm trying to figure out how this happened given the aggressive discounting during the second half of the season.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

One other interesting tidbit from the article is that Ary is planning for a ski season that runs from December 14th through March 30th.  He seems to not want to go past March 30th because it interferes with their ability to prepare for mountain biking.  This schedule is fairly consistent with prior practice, is it not?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

The fallout continues.  NEMBAfest has been moved from the mountain to Darling Hill.  

2014 info:
http://www.mtbadventureseries.org/mtbadventure/NEMBAfest2014.htm

2013 info:
http://www.mtbadventureseries.org/mtbadventure/NEMBAfest2013.htm


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And keep in mind that the Caledonian Record just reported what Stenger said.  They didn't do any sort of investigation into his comment.
> 
> Here is why I am very concerned:
> 1) You have a known delay in at least two projects (Burke Hotel and 85 condo unit at Jay).
> ...



3 big projects

the newport development also delayed, again


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## sull1102 (Apr 10, 2014)

Sounds like the sky is starting to fall for this clown Ary and the rest of the Q team, good riddance. Changing the name of a ski area that's over 40 years old to your last name initial... HOW STUPID ARE YOU! A 1ST GRADER DOESN'T EVEN THINK THAT'S COOL! I and everyone I ride with get a good laugh out of "Q Burke" every time we drive right by the exit and keep on going.


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## dlague (Apr 10, 2014)

Yup QBurke was a bad idea!  Didn't anyone verb that name choice?  I think some of the decisions have poor by design and I too am concerned about the future.  I skied Burke over thirty years ago and to see this is rather saddening.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

I still want the mountain to be healthy.  Unlike Masskier, however, I don't feel that spreading untruths is a mechanism to achieve this goal.

Here is what I hope Burke will do:  Take all of the investors in the various projects (tennis center, etc) and try to consolidate them into the hotel project.  Don't just assume that the money will come.  Hire a credible firm to do a business analysis of the hotel.  If the hotel can genuinely make money, share that analysis with potential investors.  

Repair relations with Kingdom Trails.  Do that QUICKLY.  You will sell a lot more hotel rooms if things like NEMBAfest are still on Burke property.

Quietly back away from the Q-Burke name.  You can still be Q-Burke d/b/a Burke Mountain Resort.  The letter "Q" should not be anywhere the public sees.  No sweatshirts, no letterhead - nothing. 

If you, a northern Vermont resort, are not going to open until mid-December, make sure you have some decent snow laid down for when you open.

I am sure that there is more that can be done, but this is at least a start.  Let's hope this guy can pull through.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The fallout continues.  NEMBAfest has been moved from the mountain to Darling Hill.
> 
> 2014 info:
> http://www.mtbadventureseries.org/mtbadventure/NEMBAfest2014.htm
> ...


That is actually news that is at least 3 months old. They were going to have to move it anyway due to the construction that was supposed to start at Mid-Burke. The situation between Q and Kingdom Trails likely influenced the decision to move it off of mountain property altogether. Darling Hill should still be an excellent location.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is actually news that is at least 3 months old. They were going to have to move it anyway due to the construction that was supposed to start at Mid-Burke. The situation between Q and Kingdom Trails likely influenced the decision to move it off of mountain property altogether. Darling Hill should still be an excellent location.


So you are saying that Ary let it move when he ought to have known that construction would not likely happen?  Ouch!


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So you are saying that Ary let it move when he ought to have known that construction would not likely happen? Ouch!



Where did I say that 4 months ago, Ary definitely knew that "construction would not likely happen"? 

I don't think anyone knew there was a 100% chance that construction wouldn't start before June 22nd. Maybe there is even a 30% chance that it still will. 

Considering that there may still be a chance construction starts before NEMBAfest, why wouldn't Ary allow the venue to be moved out of your potential construction site? Would you push back the start date of a multimillion $ project so a bunch of mountain bikers can camp in your construction site. 

Again the above was probably not the driving factor in the move. Kingdom Trails has a MUCH closer relationship with NEMBA which was likely the reason that NEMBAfest was moved off mountain property.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So you are saying that Ary let it move when he ought to have known that construction would not likely happen?  Ouch!



A lot of local events that were once at the mountain have moved to other venues as of late.  The Burke Chamber of Commerce did an event at the mountain every year in January.  They moved it this year.  Kingdom Trails also moved their XC operations to the Wildflower Inn.  

Word on the street is that Q wants to go his own way.  He wants to compete with KT and offer more lift-served biking (on trails that KT volunteers built with KT funds?!)


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Where did I say that 4 months ago, Ary definitely knew that "construction would not likely happen"?



I didn't mean to imply that you said it.  I was just trying to get into Ary's head.  If the hotel project was at best 25% funded as late as this month (to be fair, Stenger's comments were somewhat cryptic), it would have been foolish to let the event move.  

Did the NEMBA event use enough of the upper hill that it could not have remained on the lower hill while construction was going on?  I've never been so I really don't know.  You really do have two separate pods, including parking - so I'm wondering if there was enough room for both.  It sounds like there may not have been.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Word on the street is that Q wants to go his own way.  He wants to compete with KT and offer more lift-served biking (on trails that KT volunteers built with KT funds?!)



I've heard that some of those trails are on state land.  If that is the case, does that come into play somehow?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The article is available to e-edition subscribers the night before the physical edition comes out.
> 
> In the article Ary insists that the hotel will be built this year.   This is odd given that the delay was supposed to be weather related only.  Why the wait to break ground?  And how could it be built in less than nine months?  Perhaps he meant that construction would start this year.
> 
> He says that skier visits were the same as last year but revenues were up by 10 percent.  I'm trying to figure out how this happened given the aggressive discounting during the second half of the season.



Darn.  I thought that you were going to tell us that you had a "Deep (Powder) Throat" insider from the mountain and that you had meetings with him in various dark corners of East Burke and he told you to "follow the (lack of) money":



And this latest thing shows that even guys like Masskier and Ski Racer Parent can be duped.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And this latest thing shows that even guys like Masskier and Ski Racer Parent can be duped.



Not trying to be a wise guy, but there was really no excuse for that.  I'm not kidding when I say that I, who had no inside information when this began, was able to poke around and get to the bottom of the situation in mere minutes.  The truth was out there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> He wants to compete with KT and offer more lift-served biking (on trails that KT volunteers built with KT funds?!)



The problem with this is that lift-served biking is not unique.  Kingdom Trails is much more unique.  

For lift-served biking, Highland Bike Park and Pat's Peak are much closer to Boston.  Bromont is much closer to Montreal and Tremblant has all sorts of summer activities in addition to biking.  Powder Ridge and Mountain Creek are much closer to New York City.  And there are others like Jimminey Peak Attitash.  There are at least 100 total lift served biking facilities.  

So why distance yourself from something much more unique than you are?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And this latest thing shows that even guys like Masskier and Ski Racer Parent can be duped.



Huh? How was I duped?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Huh? How was I duped?



Yeah, I think it was Masskier only.  SkiRaceParent just didn't like the negativity.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Yeah, I think it was Masskier only.  SkiRaceParent just didn't like the negativity.



I still don't think the negativity is warranted. I agree Quiros is not making all the right moves but with BMA there and its recent successes the mountain isn't going anywhere. All this discussion about it going the way of Ascutney, there is absolutely no chance that would ever happen.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I still don't think the negativity is warranted. I agree Quiros is not making all the right moves but with BMA there and its recent successes the mountain isn't going anywhere. All this discussion about it going the way of Ascutney, there is absolutely no chance that would ever happen.



BMA has saved the mountain once before.  It is now two ownership regimes from running the mountain.  Unfortunately BMA alone does not a successful ski area make.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Huh? How was I duped?



You were confident that Burke had all the money in hand to proceed with work.  They clearly don't.  Stenger said last week that they were 25% funded.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> but with BMA there and its recent successes the mountain isn't going anywhere. All this discussion about it going the way of Ascutney, there is absolutely no chance that would ever happen.



I agree that this is what makes Burke fundamentally different from Ascutney.  I don't think that it means that Burke is completely out of the woods, but I don't see Burke closing in the foreseeable future so long as the Academy has anything to do with it.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You were confident that Burke had all the money in hand to proceed with work.  They clearly don't.  Stenger said last week that they were 25% funded.



Source?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent, is there any risk that the if the Acadmey took the mountain back that they would only run their training hill and close the ski area to the public?  That's my nightmare scenario.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

The comparison to Ascutney speaks to the management of the mountain and not BMA in any way.  And there are, unfortunately, many similarities.  That is not to say that the end result will be the same.  As the saying goes one who fails to learn from history is cursed to repeat it.  

And to be clear the management and ownership of Burke DOES NOT involve Jay to much extent at all.  Stenger and company distanced themselves from last December's debacle.  Stenger came in to do damage control, but that was because of the connection to other EB-5 projects and that the Q's had made some major gaffes.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Source?



You yourself.  Months ago some were worried that the mountain did not have funds in hand to move ahead with the projects.  You said that you knew for a fact that they did have the money in hand.  Stenger last week contradicted that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The comparison to Ascutney speaks to the management of the mountain and not BMA in any way.


But wasn't Ascutney's downfall based on their real estate debt?  I don't see Ary on the hook for $1 million condos or anything like that.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You yourself.  Months ago some were worried that the mountain did not have funds in hand to move ahead with the projects.  You said that you knew for a fact that they did have the money in hand.  Stenger last week contradicted that.


 I don't believe I've ever said that. Can you guide me to that post? Not saying it's impossible I'd just be surprised.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But wasn't Ascutney's downfall based on their real estate debt?  I don't see Ary on the hook for $1 million condos or anything like that.



No.  

Ascutney's *latest ownership* came in and claimed to be a White Knight to save the place.  They were not from the area.  The husband was a Wall Street man.  

They let their egos take over and burned a lot of bridges with locals and employees.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> SkiRaceParent, is there any risk that the if the Acadmey took the mountain back that they would only run their training hill and close the ski area to the public?  That's my nightmare scenario.



I doubt that would ever happen. What would all the families do with all their free time? It would essentially kill the entire feeder and junior program which are becoming more, not less important, as sport and technique specialization at an earlier age matter more than ever in ski racing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I don't believe I've ever said that. Can you guide me to that post? Not saying it's impossible I'd just be surprised.



You are denying that?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You are denying that?



Show me the post. I don't recall saying that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the thing: there are a lot of mountains who do have visible management/ownership but they don't put their names out there on marketing. Everyone knows that Win Smith owns Sugarbush and he comes in here on occasion.  He is out on the front lines.  But he does not put his initials on the logo or change the name to "Win's Sugarbush" or anything like that.  And, closer to Burke, Bill Stenger is Mr. Jay Peak, but he is not in marketing material or have his name on the logo.
> 
> My point with Ascutney was that the owners were not only visible, but were in every single article, had their pictures in brochures, and really put themselves out there.  The truth was that the burned a lot of bridges and were not well liked.  The mountain failed...in large part because of them.  It was about them and not the mountain.  People didn't like it.
> 
> ...



This is the Ascutney reference.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I doubt that would ever happen. What would all the families do with all their free time? It would essentially kill the entire feeder and junior program which are becoming more, not less important, as sport and technique specialization at an earlier age matter more than ever in ski racing.



In 2000 BMA was set to do just this though....run only the training slope if they could not raise the funds.  

When they sold the mountain to Lubert-Adler/Ginn, the deal included (1) some money directed specifically to BMA, and (2) some sort of guarantee or commitment that should the mountain fail BMA would take it over.  I don't know if the sale to Q had a similar guarantee.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't know if the sale to Q had a similar guarantee.



I would be downright shocked if it didn't.

To be fair to Ary, skier visits were apparently consistent with last year.  This might mean that his imprint did not have the same negative impact that it had for the Ascutney owners.  Of course it could also mean that these things take some time and/or that weather and other such factors played a role.  

Since I just returned to the skiing scene this year, how did the weather compare to last year - especially during the peak vacation periods?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I would be downright shocked if it didn't.
> 
> To be fair to Ary, skier visits were apparently consistent with last year.  This might mean that his imprint did not have the same negative impact that it had for the Ascutney owners.  Of course it could also mean that these things take some time and/or that weather and other such factors played a role.
> 
> Since I just returned to the skiing scene this year, how did the weather compare to last year - especially during the peak vacation periods?



Speaking from memory it was a slow start.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

I guess the real test is to compare Burke's performance to the industry average for this season.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 10, 2014)

Hey guys, sorry it's been so long since I've jumped back into this thread, but saw the hotel conversation pop up and wanted to drop in. To clarify on the website change, we were purposely vague there because, while things are moving forward, we may not actually start putting shovels in the ground by June 20th. As such, we wanted to take a conservative approach and not put a solid date out there to act as another target. Looking back, we most likely should have gone with 'scheduled to begin Summer 2014' to avoid confusion, and I'll issue a mea culpa there. As it stands the project is slated to get started this summer, with Peak CM ready to roll once the green light is given. From the interest/funding side, Mr. Stenger and Senator Leahy have an upcoming trip to Thailand and Vietnam to meet with investors and they've got a full calendar of appointments set up before they even hit the ground over there, so things are going well. 

I imagine this will raise some more questions and I'm happy to answer what I can. If I don't get back in here right away it's because I'm busy going cross-eyed staring at budget spreadsheets, but I will do my best to check in regularly over the next couple days.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew,

Thanks so much for responding.  You've got my respect.  

I've got a couple of questions:
1) Is the hotel fully funded or does more money need to be raised prior to commencement of construction?
2) What was the specific reason for starting this summer rather than this spring?
3) What is left to occur before Peak CM will get the "green light?"
4) If trips are being taken to Thailand and Vietnam, does this indicate a softening of Chinese demand?
5) How do you explain revenue being up if skier visits were flat and there was deep discounting during the second half of the season?
6) Stenger stated that Burke is 25% funded.  What does this mean exactly?
7) If construction does not start this summer, is it reasonable to expect the public to place any trust in future statements from management?


----------



## xwhaler (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> 5) How do you explain revenue being up if skier visits were flat and there was deep discounting during the second half of the season?



I can only guess that non-ski ticket revenue was up (food/beverage, maybe ski+stay packages for any condos they own, rentals, lessons, merchandise) and these profit centers helped drive overall ski area revenue up.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> I can only guess that non-ski ticket revenue was up (food/beverage, maybe ski+stay packages for any condos they own, rentals, lessons, merchandise) and these profit centers helped drive overall ski area revenue up.



Burke does not own any condos...except for the Carriage House.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew said:


> Looking back, we most likely should have gone with 'scheduled to begin Summer 2014' to avoid confusion, and I'll issue a mea culpa there.



Andrew,

Why are you taking the blame for putting "spring, 2014" on the website when, on October 2, 2013, Jay's EB-5 Manager announced the following?:

_Construction will begin on the new five-story hotel at Q Burke Mountain Resort in early Spring. Bill Stenger announced that he and his construction team have made a decision to delay ground breaking this Fall to avoid potential weather setbacks. Although the project could have started after the final permits were received in August, they based the decision on their experience with recent winter construction projects at Jay Peak Resort. He predicted that the construction team will make up time during the 2014 construction season._  (see: http://jaypeakvermont.org/jay-peak-area-news/nek-eb-5-economic-development-initiative-updates/ )

Surely you shouldn't have put something on the website that was inconsistent with what EB-5 management said.

And if everything was in place last fall, why wait until later this summer to break ground?  Is there a strategic reason to increase costs of construction if the most economically efficient time to commence construction is early spring?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

Apparently Burke forgot to tell Peak CM that construction is starting in the summer.  Just yesterday, Peak CM posted this in the "news" section of their website:

09 APRIL 2014 – PEAKCM RELEASED TO BREAKGROUND ON Q BURKE MOUNTAIN RESORT & CONFERENCE CENTER

_PeakCM, in partnership with Q Burke Mountain Resort, has been released to start construction on the much anticipated, EB5 funded, flagship Resort Hotel & Conference Center.  Starting in Spring 2014, this 180,000 sf project will bring 116 new suites to some of the best skiing in the Northeast Kingdom, and will also incorporate a slopeside restaurant, conference space, ski shops, arcade, coffee shop, a fitness center with outdoor pool and hot tub, and a new bar to highlight après ski festivities.  Q Burke Mountain Resort & Conference Center_

http://www.peakcm.com/public/news.cfm


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew,

In your post you said that Peak CM is "ready to roll once the green light is given."  Yet the day before you stated this, Peak CM issued a press release indicating that they had been given the green light.

How do you reconcile these two seemingly inconsistent statements?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

I think we will have to stand-by and see what happens at this point.  The next few weeks they will get ready for biking so we will see if the KT rift is healed or not.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Andrew,
> 
> Thanks so much for responding.  You've got my respect.
> 
> ...



As much as I appreciate upfront honesty from companies, I think you are really reaching if you expect ANY company to answer all of those questions. A lot of the answers would require revealing internal operating info.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> As much as I appreciate upfront honesty from companies, I think you are really reaching if you expect ANY company to answer all of those questions. A lot of the answers would require revealing internal operating info.



He said that he would answer what he could, so I thought I would let Andrew decide his comfort level.  Surely some responses are warranted even if all are not.  For example, now that Burke has said that construction is indeed starting this summer, it seems quite reasonable for them to confirm that funding is in place for that very construction.  You can't have one without the other.  Since no rational person could imagine that funding remains a barrier now that they have confirmed that construction is moving forward - I assumed that they would jump on an opportunity share this great news.  Frankly, I thought that I was lobbing a big juicy softball for them to hit out of the park.  With funding locked up, who really cares if construction starts in a couple of weeks or in a few weeks?  I'm thrilled one way or the other!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> As much as I appreciate upfront honesty from companies, I think you are really reaching if you expect ANY company to answer all of those questions. A lot of the answers would require revealing internal operating info.



+ 1.

Who's going skiing this weekend?


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## WWF-VT (Apr 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Andrew,
> 
> Thanks so much for responding.  You've got my respect.
> 
> ...



You win the prize for asking the most detailed questions that will likely go unanswered in a ski forum.  Why don't you just pick up the phone and ask your questions and what is your reason for needing this information?


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## Andrew (Apr 10, 2014)

@VTKilarney, I'll answer what I can from the couple posts you've got up here. And by all means, if you're in the NEK and want to swing by the mountain for a chat feel free to do so. If the office door's open you're more than welcome to drop in. Actually that goes for anyone in the AZ world who's in the area, please stop by. I always enjoy meeting folks in person.

I can't answer all those questions, but I spoke with some of the EB-5 folks and here's what I can tell you:
 - No, the hotel isn't fully funded yet (nor was it forecasted to be at this point) but it is pacing well and there are sufficient funds to begin construction.
 - Peak CM is the company that will build the hotel, and as they said in their release, they're ready to go. Nothing's really left to occur, construction will start soon; by 'green light' I just meant that once the snow's melted/ground thawed, everyone looking at the site and saying "Yes, it's time to drop a shovel in the ground."
 - Mr. Stenger and Senator Leahy will be going to China on this trip (I found that out just after I posted earlier), and that demand is very strong.
 - 25% funded means that we've got 25% of the investors on board to fully complete the project. As mentioned above, construction can begin before the project is fully funded and the project is generating a lot of interest among investors internationally.
 - I know I don't really count as the public, but I'd say that yes, we can be trusted. I suppose ultimately time will be the judge of that though.

Ok, so that's what I've got. Again, I'm happy to answer new questions/more questions as I'm able, I'm just not sure there's a whole lot more I can say beyond what's above. We'll certainly keep everyone posted as we get closer to 'shovel-hits-dirt' date. 

And please, take me up on the offer to drop by the office if you can. I'll take conversations (ideally on chairlifts when it's 50 and sunny this weekend....) over spreadsheets any time.


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## Masskier (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew said:


> @VTKilarney, I'll answer what I can from the couple posts you've got up here. And by all means, if you're in the NEK and want to swing by the mountain for a chat feel free to do so. If the office door's open you're more than welcome to drop in. Actually that goes for anyone in the AZ world who's in the area, please stop by. I always enjoy meeting folks in person.
> 
> I can't answer all those questions, but I spoke with some of the EB-5 folks and here's what I can tell you:
> - No, the hotel isn't fully funded yet (nor was it forecasted to be at this point) but it is pacing well and there are sufficient funds to begin construction.
> ...



Thanks for clarifying things Andrew.


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## xlr8r (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew, thanks for the responses and clearing the air a bit here.  I have a question about progress with on mountain changes in the coming years, more specifically the Willoughby quad.  Does Burke plan to leave it as is in its current location, because to me that seems like a waste of a good lift, as it has barely run at all the last 3 years.  I know there has been talk of shortening it to create a low intermediate pod on the lower half of the current lift.  Is this going to happen soon, It seems like it wouldn't be too hard or expensive to do, and would add a lot to the mountain.  It could also add marketing value to the mountain.  What is the status/timeline on any changes or relocation of this lift.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2014)

Any chance that lift gets moved over to the East Bowl?  Thought I've seen a lift over there on the drawing board before.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2014)

Thanks Andrew, that was awesome of you.  You've got my respect and then some!  (And to everyone else, Andrew is not as shy as some of you thought!  He's the man.  Don't sell him short!)

Just one final question so I can stop being confused - and to avoid any misinterpretation of your answer.  Does the 25% funding figure apply to just the hotel, or to the entirety of the EB-5 development plans (aquatic center, tennis center, etc.)?

Again, thanks for taking the time to discuss this.  I'm tremendously impressed with your willingness to do so.  As grumpy as I can be, I am happy to give praise when it is deserved - and you deserve it big time.


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## Smellytele (Apr 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Thanks Andrew, that was awesome of you.  You've got my respect and then some!  (And to everyone else, Andrew is not as shy as some of you thought!  He's the man.  Don't sell him short!)
> 
> Just one final question so I can stop being confused - and to avoid any misinterpretation of your answer.  Does the 25% funding figure apply to just the hotel, or to the entirety of the EB-5 development plans (aquatic center, tennis center, etc.)?
> 
> Again, thanks for taking the time to discuss this.  I'm tremendously impressed with your willingness to do so.  As grumpy as I can be, I am happy to give praise when it is deserved - and you deserve it big time.



Sounds like sucking up to get more info... uke:


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Any chance that lift gets moved over to the East Bowl?  Thought I've seen a lift over there on the drawing board before.



From what I've heard, moving it to East Bowl is more expensive than it is worth. It would require new towers and other upgrades that make it cost prohibitive. Shorting it doesn't require as much of that.  IMHO, East Bowl would be better served by a double chair (somewhat similar to Castlerock).


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

And as VTKilarney and other have said. Thanks for the info Andrew.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Sounds like sucking up to get more info... uke:



Why are people here so cynical?  I was being quite sincere when I said that I had a lot of respect for his willingness to participate in this discussion.  I'm not the type to suck up to get answers (as should be clear by now), but if I was that type I certainly wouldn't do it for a mere clarification.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> From what I've heard, moving it to East Bowl is more expensive than it is worth. It would require new towers and other upgrades that make it cost prohibitive. Shorting it doesn't require as much of that.  IMHO, East Bowl would be better served by a double chair (somewhat similar to Castlerock).



It sounds like there wouldn't be enough savings compared to installing a separate lift.  Are there still valid permits for the installation of a lift in the East Bowl area?  As much as I would love a lift there, it's hard to justify when there are no lines at the Mid-Burke Express.  I wonder if it would attract more skiers to justify the expense.  (And believe me, I HATE saying that.)

Andrew, lots of people had a blast skiing the East Bowl trail after it was groomed this year.  For those of us who don't mind groomers, thank you!!!


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2014)

Andrew,

You guys should install this for summer operations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj2fnpUgiFg


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Any chance that lift gets moved over to the East Bowl?  Thought I've seen a lift over there on the drawing board before.





from_the_NEK said:


> From what I've heard, moving it to East Bowl is more expensive than it is worth. It would require new towers and other upgrades that make it cost prohibitive. Shorting it doesn't require as much of that.  IMHO, East Bowl would be better served by a double chair (somewhat similar to Castlerock).



Yeah it is a 1989 retrofit of the 1966 Double Chair, so it is quite dated.  I know that if they do move it or alter it then it becomes subject to more safety upgrades.  The best thing would be to leave it (this lift RARELY had wind problems) or shorten it for the new trail pod.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2014)

Andrew,

If you are still in the mood to answer questions... Is there anything contemplated to improve the run from the top of the Sherburne Express to the Mid-Burke Express and/or High Meadow Pass?


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## ChicoKat (Apr 11, 2014)

I have been following this thread closely. Would anybody have any information on the status of the relationship with the Kingdom Trails Association? I hope ownership sees the value of this relationship. My wife and I had never skied at Burke. We spent our honeymoon in East Burke riding the trails and paddling Lake Willoughby. Fell in love with East Burke. We eventually made our way to the downhill runs on Burke last summer and that convinced us to come back and ski it. We visited twice this year. I think a working relationship with the MTB community is in the best interest of all parties. MTB'ers ski and skiers MTB.  Hope they can come to an agreement. They will see a big drop off in riders on the mountain if they are a stand alone destination.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2014)

ChicoKat said:


> I have been following this thread closely. Would anybody have any information on the status of the relationship with the Kingdom Trails Association? I hope ownership sees the value of this relationship. My wife and I had never skied at Burke. We spent our honeymoon in East Burke riding the trails and paddling Lake Willoughby. Fell in love with East Burke. We eventually made our way to the downhill runs on Burke last summer and that convinced us to come back and ski it. We visited twice this year. I think a working relationship with the MTB community is in the best interest of all parties. MTB'ers ski and skiers MTB.  Hope they can come to an agreement. They will see a big drop off in riders on the mountain if they are a stand alone destination.



From what I've been hearing Q wants to compete with KT for whatever reason (?)


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

Here is a re-post from Burke's HSQ construction thread ( http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...-and-Other-Improvements/page4?highlight=burke ). It is a little dated but I haven't had time to rebuild everything in Google Earth since my computer crashed while back: 

I've also been messing around in Google Earth with what Burke would look like at full lift buildout (assuming the West Bowl is built out 50 years from now ).
The Purple lines are exisiting lifts.
Green and white polygons are where I would put trails (if I had too). Ignore the skinny white one that cuts across the East Bowl lift, it's the current East Bowl runout trail.

The Red lines are lifts that haven't been built yet. From left to right they are:

East Bowl lift (planned) - 1400 ft vert

Mid-Burke Express (under construction) - 1565 ft vert

West Peak lift (theoretical) - 1565 ft vert (the top 700 ft avg 48% slope [compare to the top 700 ft section of the Castlerock liftline is 44% :grin:]).














----Discuss-----


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

As far as permitting for an East Bowl lift. I don't think there is anything specific, but the Ginn master Act 250 plan that included the lift was approved in 2009-2010.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13/Master Plan.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Here is a re-post from Burke's HSQ construction thread ( http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...-and-Other-Improvements/page4?highlight=burke ). It is a little dated but I haven't had time to rebuild everything in Google Earth since my computer crashed while back:
> 
> I've also been messing around in Google Earth with what Burke would look like at full lift buildout (assuming the West Bowl is built out 50 years from now ).
> The Purple lines are exisiting lifts.
> ...



Thumbs up.  This has been the plan for several decades.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

Not too many resorts around with 3 1400'+vert terrain pods. Each served by one lift.


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## Big Wave Dave (Apr 11, 2014)

this thread is hilarious. 

the sky was falling until ONE person sends in a post, now we are planning development out 50 years 

either way, good stuff here and some good info.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this thread is hilarious.



Whatever I can do to help


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> now we are planning development out 50 years



Yeah, but it's 2% funded, so now is the time to line up contractors!


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## ChicoKat (Apr 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> From what I've been hearing Q wants to compete with KT for whatever reason (?)



Thanks trailboss. That is shear lunacy if they are going down that path. I guess they have pissed off the people that have a direct interest in the mountain now they want to expand to the KT land owner cooperative.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2014)

ChicoKat said:


> Thanks trailboss. That is shear lunacy if they are going down that path. I guess they have pissed off the people that have a direct interest in the mountain now they want to expand to the KT land owner cooperative.



To be specific, I've heard from reliable sources that he wants to expand lift served biking at the mountain and run the Mid-Burke Express.  Some of the trails on the mountain were built _gratis_ by KT volunteers.

In December Q-2 made some pretty inciteful comments about KT going so far as accusing former management as having a conflict of interest with KT and KT "taking advantage" of the mountain.  As many of us recall, he lashed out at a particular biker who put that Email up online.  The Email expressed the same sentiment.  

I know that lately we have not seen any more outbursts, but that was a pretty irrational action that flies in the face of all business sense.  So I just don't understand it.   

I understand if they need to cut costs and if they would need to renegotiate the arrangement.  But I think that the benefits of the deal went both ways.  Now KT is shifting folks away from the mountain to the Wildflower.  

United we stand; divided we fall (?)


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## WWF-VT (Apr 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not too many resorts around with 3 1400'+vert terrain pods. Each served by one lift.



Doesn't Sunday River already have like six or seven ?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Doesn't Sunday River already have like six or seven ?



Most of their pods are shorter. Only the Locke Mtn and Barker Mtn lifts cover at least 1400' of vert and they are right on the 1400' cutoff.


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## DJAK (Apr 11, 2014)

Andrew,

What is the meaning of life and how will it impact EB5 funding?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 11, 2014)

It is all answered here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2014)

DJAK said:


> Andrew,
> 
> What is the meaning of life and how will it impact EB5 funding?



Boy I don't think we have time for that one.  :lol:


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## Andrew (Apr 11, 2014)

Man, this thread moves fast..... 

@xlr8r, at the moment there aren't any concrete plans involving the Willoughby. Some ideas floating around, but to my knowledge, nothing that's set in stone. And that's ok, while it doesn't get used very often it still is a reliable back-up to the Mid Burke in case that were to go down.

@From_The_NEK, I like where your head's at. And now I will spend the next week dreaming about lift served runs in West Bowl....

@VTKilarney, 25% applies to the whole project, not just the hotel. East Bowl is a pretty awesome trail in any condition, but it's definitely fun every once in awhile as a groomer. Glad you enjoyed it. There's been some discussion about the area between Sherburne and Mid-Burke, I don't have anything solid I can offer on that but I'll certainly look into it and see what I can dig up. 

Regarding the KT relationship, no doubt some feathers were ruffled early on, but I think now everyone involved realizes that a relationship, however that ends up being defined, between the mountain and KT is a good thing for both entities and for the region as a whole. There are discussions currently going on to finalize what that relationship looks like (and as such I can't get too specific), but there will be a relationship and we'll complement each other, not compete with each other. NEMBAFest is going to be a great event, I highly suggest anyone thinking about going to head over to Darling Hill and check it out. They've got some great stuff lined up and some real good music that I know I'm going to check out. 

@DJAK ....... such important questions should only be discussed with a sufficient supply of Heady Topper close by.  

Hope you guys get the chance to get out and get some spring skiing/riding in, should be awesome out there.


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## Quietman (Apr 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Most of their pods are shorter. Only the Locke Mtn and Barker Mtn lifts cover at least 1400' of vert and they are right on the 1400' cutoff.



Jordan is about 1360' so it almost counts.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2014)

I had a chance to look at the topo map for Burke last night.  You can pull one up here: http://www.mytopo.com/maps/

Based on the topo map, I'm having a hard time seeing how a pod off of a truncated Willoughby Quad would provide decent intermediate terrain.  The intermediate pitch seems to end not far from the top of the Sherburne Express.  It looks like there would only be about 400 vertical feet of intermediate terrain that could realistically be opened up above the Sherburne chair.

On the other hand, the East Bowl looks like prime intermediate terrain.  You can easily get about 1,000 vertical feet of consistent intermediate pitch there.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The point of serving upper level beginners/lower intermediates was brought up at Burke's "Envisioning Session" last Spring. http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ble-discussion?p=774881&viewfull=1#post774881   There is a pretty big leap going from the green terrain of the lower mountain to the difficult Blue terrain of the upper mountain. Who knows if a trailpod like this created off of a shortened Willoughby chair will ever happen, but it would be a really good addition to helping progress the skills of Burke skiers.


 
Topo maps are good but they have to be too generalized to really show accurate slope. Google Earth (not Google Maps) has really revolutionized terrain reading since you can look at things from different angles a pick out nuances of the terrain. 

In the design above, the shortened Willoughby is supposed serve a pod of lower intermediate terrain that is a stepping stone to the rest of the mountain. As drawn the Willoughby chair covers about 800’ of vertical. After the traverse across slope, the new trails on skiers left of Lower Willoughby would cover 550’ of vertical before cutting back above the top of the Sherburne trail, but then they still have the last pitch of Lower Willoughby (100+’ ) to ski down to get back to the Willoughby lift. The trail far skier’s left that connects into Bunker Hill covers over 900’ from the top of the Willoughby chair. 
If you go any higher on the mountain, you start to get into the band of fairly steep terrain and begin to negate the purpose of the pod. This is especially true in East Bowl. The upper 1/3 of the East Bowl is very steep in most places. To build intermediate terrain over there would require A LOT of blasting to build wide smooth trails, then you would also have to add snowmaking. A project like that would destroy the tree skiing in the East Bowl.


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## burski (Apr 22, 2014)

its been too long since we have heard from Burke! not sure if there is anything new here or not?
http://vtdigger.org/2014/04/20/special-project-nek-projects-slowed-stalled-eb-5-approvals/


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

burski said:


> its been too long since we have heard from Burke! not sure if there is anything new here or not?
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/04/20/special-project-nek-projects-slowed-stalled-eb-5-approvals/



I think this is all you need to know:  



> Jay Peak Resort’s multimillion dollar side projects in Newport and Burke are delayed due to a slowdown in investor recruitment.



I don't think it's anyone's fault, _per se_, but more a reflection of more competition for these dollars.

They're still saying this:



> Jay Peak president and partial owner Bill Stenger and majority owner Ariel Quiros say they’re confident construction will begin this summer at AnC Bio, their planned biotechnology research park in Newport, and at Q Burke Mountain, Jay Peak’s newly acquired sister ski area in Burke.



Not good.....



> Before they access the money they’ve already raised, the developers are waiting for the EB-5 projects’ early investors to receive visa approvals from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which administers the EB-5 program.
> 
> In the meantime, other potential investors whose capital is needed to complete the financing plans are wary of placing their money in a project until they see that job creation and business plans have gotten a green light. A few investors who placed their money behind the AnC project have asked for a refund. Data is not available on the nationwide incidence of EB-5 refunds.
> 
> “We have refunded a handful of investor funds due to the delay, but those spots have been taken up quickly by others,” Stenger said by email from Shanghai on April 15. He was in Asia for investor recruitment events, two of which were attended by Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Rep. Peter Welch, D-Vt., as part of a trip to Asia for a broader diplomatic mission.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 22, 2014)

It sounds to me like, barring a 360, the hotel project is, once red tape is broken, a go. They seem to be putting their credibility (at least that which still exists) on the line on making that claim. To me, just getting the hotel done, for Burke, is most important. I've viewed everything else as something in between a questionable investment and a pipe dream.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> It sounds to me like, barring a 360, the hotel project is, once red tape is broken, a go. They seem to be putting their credibility (at least that which still exists) on the line on making that claim. To me, just getting the hotel done, for Burke, is most important. I've viewed everything else as something in between a questionable investment and a pipe dream.



The hotel is key for Burke.  It was what Northern Star realized right before it was too late.  

The hope from folks I've talked with is that it be personalized for Burke rather than just a "cut and paste" of the Tram Haus.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The hotel is key for Burke.  It was what Northern Star realized right before it was too late.
> 
> The hope from folks I've talked with is that it be personalized for Burke rather than just a "cut and paste" of the Tram Haus.



Aesthetics to me, from a business standpoint, is secondary. We just need the bed base! Of course, would love for it to fit in but we shall see.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Aesthetics to me, from a business standpoint, is secondary. We just need the bed base! Of course, would love for it to fit in but we shall see.



Right, but Burke's strength has been its image and character.  If you screw it up with a "cut and paste" job you become just another ski area making marketing tougher.  

I get what you're saying though about the need.  Absolutely.  But it should be done right.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but Burke's strength has been its image and character.  If you screw it up with a "cut and paste" job you become just another ski area.



I hear ya, but just another ski area, that is still open, might not be a bad outcome! I just want to see the construction equipment arrive and I'll breathe a huge sigh of relief. My over/under is second week of July.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The hope from folks I've talked with is that it be personalized for Burke rather than just a "cut and paste" of the Tram Haus.



That was a big part of the discussion during the panel session last year. The ship has pretty much sailed on the design of the new lodge hotel. At this point a redesign means a whole new round of Act 250 permitting since the exterior design is one of the criteria for approval. The Tram Haus is a nice design. True I wish the new lodge at Burke wasn't going to be EXACTLY like the Tram Haus but it could be worse. What design would you recommend? A faux barn (see Sugarbush). Maybe a giant sugarhouse?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That was a big part of the discussion during the panel session last year. The ship has pretty much sailed on the design of the new lodge hotel. At this point a redesign means a whole new round of Act 250 permitting since the exterior design is one of the criteria for approval. The Tram Haus is a nice design. True I wish the new lodge at Burke wasn't going to be EXACTLY like the Tram Haus but it could be worse. What design would you recommend? A faux barn (see Sugarbush). Maybe a giant sugarhouse?



Yes, I'm pretty certain the design is set. The important thing to me is that the views of the gap were going to be highlighted in the lobby area which seems like its part of the current design. I know everyone views the NEK as rustic and homogeneous from an exterior style standpoint but the fact of the matter is that you see every kind of building (residential and commercial) design around here. Thus, except for those looking for an Epcot Center effect of having every building look like what you envision that country should look like, i think we get what we get and shouldn't be upset.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2014)

I should hope that people are happy for a hotel, and they don't micro-analyze the design.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That was a big part of the discussion during the panel session last year. The ship has pretty much sailed on the design of the new lodge hotel. At this point a redesign means a whole new round of Act 250 permitting since the exterior design is one of the criteria for approval. The Tram Haus is a nice design. True I wish the new lodge at Burke wasn't going to be EXACTLY like the Tram Haus but it could be worse. What design would you recommend? A faux barn (see Sugarbush). Maybe a giant sugarhouse?



What do you think is Burke?  

In my mind it would be the gray clapboarding that they used to have on the lodges with white trim.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2014)

Don't regional centers allow construction to commence before UCIS approval?

See: https://iiusa.org/blog/government-a...emo-published-30-2013-robert-divine-iiusa-vp/

So is the holdup more funding related or are investors skittish of eventual approval?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Don't regional centers allow construction to commence before UCIS approval?


                     I'm sure they do but why stick your neck out like that?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm sure they do but why stick your neck out like that?



"They" as in Stenger and Company?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> "They" as in Stenger and Company?



That was a reply to VTK's post.  As for the grey clapboard with white trim color scheme, it is only that. A color scheme. I suppose they could paint the new lodge those colors.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That was a reply to VTK's post.  As for the grey clapboard with white trim color scheme, it is only that. A color scheme. I suppose they could paint the new lodge those colors.



True.  I don't know what kind of architecture would be Burke.  I really don't know.  It would be very simple though I imagine.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2014)

The condos have no common style.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The condos have no common style.



Very true.  In part because they were built at different times by different ownership.


----------



## buellski (Apr 23, 2014)

DJAK said:


> Andrew,
> 
> What is the meaning of life and how will it impact EB5 funding?



42, but I have no idea how it will impact EB5 funding.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2014)

My take, which may be completely wrong:
1) The delay is due to primarily to a lack of funding.
2) They are working aggressively to get funding (trips to China with influential people, a trip to Vietnam, etc.)
3) They believe that they will have funding in place to commence construction this summer.

I think the USCIS issue is a red herring.  The regional centers are supposed to vet the projects for USCIS compliance.  There have been no issues with Vermont's regional center.  If anything, they have a great track record.  Jay Peak's projects have all ultimately passed the USCIS test, as far as I know.

I could be wrong about this, however, because things have indeed changed over at USCIS.  They are going from 9 relatively untrained (in economics) people to 55 very well trained people to review these projects.  I can understand that this may make an investor skittish to commit their funds prior to actual USCIS approval.

One way or the other, if Burke does not break ground this summer, they have now built in their excuse - the Feds.  The VT Digger piece was not an investigatory piece.  So the question is whether or not Stenger and Quiros put this seed out to cook an excuse, or if the USCIS is really a factor for the delay.


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## Masskier (Apr 24, 2014)

Well, just when you think you got it figured out, they go and change the web site again.

"Construction of the new 116-suite Hotel Burke is scheduled to begin in  June 2014, under the direction of PeakCM, whose President and Owner -  Jerry Davis - was responsible for building the Tram Haus Lodge, Hotel  Jay and Pumphouse Indoor Waterpark at Jay Peak. The new Hotel Burke will  take inspiration from the Tram Haus Lodge  at Jay Peak, but have a connection to Burke that is obvious and  important. The Hotel and Conference center will open in November of  2015."


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 24, 2014)

Maybe their trip to Asia has been fruitful.

On April 21, Peak CM announced that they will be breaking ground this spring.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 24, 2014)

Whatever the reason, this is good news.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 25, 2014)

For those that haven't seen this before, here is a rendering I did in Google Earth:


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> My take, which may be completely wrong:
> 1) The delay is due to primarily to a lack of funding.
> 2) They are working aggressively to get funding (trips to China with influential people, a trip to Vietnam, etc.)
> 3) They believe that they will have funding in place to commence construction this summer.
> ...



If you trust them and marketing at their word, if 25% of the total project funding requirement is > or = to the budget required to build the hotel, then you are incorrect. If they are either lying or that is not enough, then you are correct.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2014)

Based on recent information, I now see two likelihoods:
1) They changed the ground breaking date back to June because they really are going to break ground in June.
2) They want to act as if they are completely ready but will blame a delay in June on the USCIS.

I'm inclined to believe that the more likely scenario is #1, because I can't imagine they would have such poor public relations to go with scenario #2.

If scenario #1 is correct, my gut feeling is that they didn't have the money in place until this most recent trip.  If that is true, I can't imagine it will be easy to raise funds for the next phases of the project.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2014)

As I've said with other Burke projects, I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## the original trailboss (Apr 25, 2014)

It has been more than interesting to watch the discussions about the hotel(s) since I began this thread over 18 months ago, and, despite my earlier cautions regarding the scale of the hotel(s) project - Hotel Burke - it is clear that my native/local perspective is not in the majority column. Every time I look at that location from afar and try to visualize the complex I am still amazed that it has sailed through the process and has such a large support base among the Burke community, which in my mind is clearly a non-native, used to growth and change, and beds no matter what, group (I'm sure I'll hear about that one!). The hotel(s) has been marketed and sold as  single structure but in reality it is TWO Tram Haus Lodge 58-room hotels joined together by a lower roofline base lodge that will fill the appointed field and dominate the landscape for many, many miles around. And, as to construction, it is real for June, at least the groundwork. Maybe that will get some attention.................


----------



## dlague (Apr 25, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> It has been more than interesting to watch the discussions about the hotel(s) since I began this thread over 18 months ago, and, despite my earlier cautions regarding the scale of the hotel(s) project - Hotel Burke - it is clear that my native/local perspective is not in the majority column. Every time I look at that location from afar and try to visualize the complex I am still amazed that it has sailed through the process and has such a large support base among the Burke community, which in my mind is clearly a non-native, used to growth and change, and beds no matter what, group (I'm sure I'll hear about that one!). The hotel(s) has been marketed and sold as  single structure but in reality it is TWO Tram Haus Lodge 58-room hotels joined together by a lower roofline base lodge that will fill the appointed field and dominate the landscape for many, many miles around. And, as to construction, it is real for June, at least the groundwork. Maybe that will get some attention.................



It will definitely will be prominent!  It will be visible from Willoughby for sure!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2014)

dlague said:


> It will definitely will be prominent!  It will be visible from Willoughby for sure!



But is it appropriate for the site?  Will it be out of place?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 25, 2014)

dlague said:


> It will definitely will be prominent!  It will be visible from Willoughby for sure!


Technically it will only be visible from the lookouts on the south side of Mt Pisgah. You can't see the lower half of Burke Mtn from the Lake itself.


----------



## dlague (Apr 25, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Technically it will only be visible from the lookouts on the south side of Mt Pisgah. You can't see the lower half of Burke Mtn from the Lake itself.



yup exactly!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2014)

Burke's website show an opening for a marketing and events coordinator.  See: http://skiburke.com/jobs

Has there been a shakeup or is this an additional position?


----------



## Masskier (Apr 27, 2014)

[h=3]Updates to the EB-5 program in Vermont, [/h]
http://www.wcax.com/story/24936328/updates-to-the-eb-5-program-in-vermont


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## Masskier (Apr 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Based on recent information, I now see two likelihoods:
> 1) They changed the ground breaking date back to June because they really are going to break ground in June.
> 2) They want to act as if they are completely ready but will blame a delay in June on the USCIS.
> 
> ...



The only "ground breaking dates I'm aware of since last fall was " Spring 2014" then on April 7 it change to "Coming Soon" and then a couple days ago it change to "June".    The progression of things over the last 30 days suggest they are moving forward and plan on  breaking ground soon.  I'm sure Peak CM is busy planning, organizing and preparing to mobilize. I saw the power company last week, I suspect they were installing a tap for the job trailer.  A site sign is schedule to be installed next week (weather permitting).  So all the signs are there that groundbreaking is soon.   They would not be this far into this project if they did not have ample funds and demand. To suggest they didn't have money in place until this recent trip doesn't make sense.  Any new investor that made a commitment from this recent trip, it will take them months to be approved.  So those would be the funds for later stages of the project.  
The only "fly in the ointment" could be the USCIS. They are months behind in their process.  And they could cause Burke to delay again, however Burke expects their approval any day now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2014)

Well, 1,250 posts, but that is still half of what the legendary "Guess the Ski Area" thread comes in at now.  

And in other news it was a nice powder day at Alta today.


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## Masskier (Apr 28, 2014)

From Friday's Cal Record,

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"A  bottleneck in approving EB-5 foreign investor projects is expected to  lighten up shortly, Stenger wrote in an e-mail Thursday. The United  States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), which reviews and  approves EB-5 projects, has 8,000 projects to review at this point,  Stenger said, but he is expecting approvals in the next few weeks for  both AnC Bio Vermont and the development at Q* Burke** Mountain* in East* Burke*.[/FONT]"

See the whole article here; http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=110617&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=145&S=1


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## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2014)

But didn't the state EB-5 director say in the interview with WCAX that Burke already had approval?


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## Masskier (Apr 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But didn't the state EB-5 director say in the interview with WCAX that Burke already had approval?



Yes, Burke does have all of their state approvals.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But didn't the state EB-5 director say in the interview with WCAX that Burke already had approval?





Masskier said:


> Yes, Burke does have all of their state approvals.



So regional EB-5 has said that they are good to go and national has not yet, right?


And any progress on mending things with KT?  From what I've been seeing and hearing (from afar) Q seems to be going on his own with lots of things in the community.  Not a good idea IMHO.


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## halfpintvt (Apr 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So regional EB-5 has said that they are good to go and national has not yet, right?
> 
> 
> And any progress on mending things with KT?  From what I've been seeing and hearing (from afar) Q seems to be going on his own with lots of things in the community.  Not a good idea IMHO.



I heard that Q Burke is going to have their own trail system and not partner with Kingdom Trails. 
It would seem that Ary is a slow learner!


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## fbrissette (Apr 29, 2014)

halfpintvt said:


> I heard that Q Burke is going to have their own trail system and not partner with Kingdom Trails.
> It would seem that Ary is a slow learner!



That would be so frickin ridiculous.  One beside the other in the middle of nowhere (no offense meant for the NEK).  Talking about shooting yourself in the foot.  They HAVE to get along.  To part ways makes absolutely no sense.  In the mean time, when I ride the Kingdom trails, I'll make sure I pee on QBurke side prior to turning back.


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## dlague (Apr 29, 2014)

I just spoke to them and At this time the open trails that are on Burke will be available midweek with no lift serve. However, on weekends when they will be running the lifts the lift ticket will be separate.  The toll road that used to be $5 per vehicle will now be $5 per bike per Q Burke.  They have not posted the trail map on their site since things still appear to be up in the air but looking like the separation will be on weekends when the lift is running.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2014)

halfpintvt said:


> I heard that Q Burke is going to have their own trail system and not partner with Kingdom Trails.
> It would seem that Ary is a slow learner!



Big, big, mistake.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

Well, Ski Area Management has just released their review of marketing for the past season and their "wins and fails."  Guess what they said for "fail"?



> Worst name change:
> Q Burke Mountain, Vt.
> When Ary Quiros became president of Burke Mountain, one of his first moves was simple and swift: he changed the mountain’s name to Q Burke. It didn’t take long for the community to notice and connect the change with the last name of the president. Employees and customers alike shook their heads at a move made by a man with virtually no marketing or branding experience. Then, after he cut ties with one of the community’s most beloved brands, Quiros fired off a series of e-mails to critics that further portrayed him as an arrogant, ego-driven leader.
> 
> Burke was, and is, an incredible mountain with a talented team, but their leader painted them into a corner with virtually nothing to do but watch their brand slowly get buried under a messy pile of online indignation. —GB



http://www.saminfo.com/article/bestworst-marketing-2013-14

Ouch.  

Now before people accuse me of flaming or :uzi: , let me point out some things.  First, SAM is the industry magazine and these are essentially peer reviews of what worked and what didn't.  Note that they say that Ary has "virtually no marketing or branding experience" and that he really ruined the brand and the business.  Their words, not mine and they are members of the industry looking at them.  They also admit that Burke is a great mountain and had (or has) a good team.   

SAM has previously recognized Burke for environmental work and best mountain for its size in terms of advertising, marketing, etc.  So this is a different take on the place.  Stenger also is pretty involved in SAM so this does not look good.  

The industry is telling Ary to move on to something else.  Hopefully potential EB-5 investors don't see that article.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

Has anyone been able to figure out if the job posting for a Marketing and Events Coordinator is the result of a shakeup or is a new position?  

I'm thinking that it may be a new position for hotel operations, which if true, is about the best indication we have received that the hotel project is going forward.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Has anyone been able to figure out if the job posting for a Marketing and Events Coordinator is the result of a shakeup or is a new position?
> 
> I'm thinking that it may be a new position for hotel operations, which if true, is about the best indication we have received that the hotel project is going forward.



Maybe Andrew moved on.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe Andrew moved on.



Ahh... I had actually forgotten his name.  His LinkedIn page makes no reference to Burke, so maybe it was never updated when he took the job at Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

Here is some interesting information about Burke's firesale, er... marketing campaign this winter:
http://www.origindesign.ca/q-burke-resort-facebook-ad-campaign


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is an interesting information about Burke's firesale, er... marketing campaign this winter:
> http://www.origindesign.ca/q-burke-resort-facebook-ad-campaign



Yeah that is just the company tooting its horn over the project that it did.  It was a good campaign but nothing really out of the ordinary as they had been running similar promos for the last few seasons.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

The are a couple of interesting things disclosed in the marketer's marketing:
1) They targeted skiers that lived within 90 minutes of Burke.  Why???  This leaves out a) Montreal, b) Burlington, c) southern New Hampshire, and d) Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York via I-91.
2) They only sold 363 lift tickets with this promotion.

I'm disappointed that Ary spent his marketing dollars outside of the USA.  I'm not too upset since Burke draws skiers from Canada, but it would have been a nice gesture to use the money to help create jobs in Vermont.  Perhaps there was not a company in Vermont that could have offered the same level of expertise - although 363 tickets was not an impossible benchmark to beat.

I'd love to know what they spent per redeemed ticket for this campaign.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The are a couple of interesting things disclosed in the marketer's marketing:
> 1) They targeted skiers that lived within 90 minutes of Burke.  Why???  This leaves out a) Montreal, b) Burlington, c) southern New Hampshire, and d) Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York via I-91.
> 2) They only sold 363 lift tickets with this promotion.
> 
> ...



Looks like they had Jay as a client; pretty easy to see why they got the gig.  

As to the 90 minute draw they know that is where most of the market comes from.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the 90 minute draw they know that is where most of the market comes from.



But isn't that the problem?  Perhaps it's not going to change until lodging options improve and they are just recognizing that reality.  I'm just surprised that they purposely left out 95% of the Northeast skier base.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But isn't that the problem?  Perhaps it's not going to change until lodging options improve and they are just recognizing that reality.  I'm just surprised that they purposely left out 95% of the Northeast skier base.



I think they (rightly) assumed that the pitch would be for day trippers who would be in the general area and interested in skiing over warm weather pursuits.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like they had Jay as a client; pretty easy to see why they got the gig.
> 
> As to the 90 minute draw they know that is where most of the market comes from.



And for a lot of people that are day tripping, 90 minutes is about the farthest they will go. Anything longer and people will likely want to stay overnight. Until that hotel gets built, there aren't very many beds to accommodate that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> And for a lot of people that are day tripping, 90 minutes is about the farthest they will go. Anything longer and people will likely want to stay overnight. Until that hotel gets built, there aren't very many beds to accommodate that.



Will the beds have Quilts on them?


----------



## dlague (Apr 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like they had Jay as a client; pretty easy to see why they got the gig.
> 
> As to the 90 minute draw they know that is where most of the market comes from.



The 90 minute draw are those who are more than likely to ski there - If i were trying to pull in skiers and snowboarders, I would want to target a market that is larger than our current market.  I have met plenty of people from the Boston area at Burke while sitting on the chairlift.  Southern NH has a pretty significant population and the 93 to the 91 is darn near a straight shot.  If you pull up a population density heat map and there are plenty out there it is pretty clear that the market is more than the 90 minutes.  Next time you are on the lift at Jay Peak or Burke, ask the person riding up the chair with you where they are from - I have not run into many locals.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 30, 2014)

dlague said:


> The 90 minute draw are those who are more than likely to ski there - If i were trying to pull in skiers and snowboarders, I would want to target a market that is larger than our current market.  I have met plenty of people from the Boston area at Burke while sitting on the chairlift.  Southern NH has a pretty significant population and the 93 to the 91 is darn near a straight shot.  If you pull up a population density heat map and there are plenty out there it is pretty clear that the market is more than the 90 minutes.  Next time you are on the lift at Jay Peak or Burke, ask the person riding up the chair with you where they are from - I have not run into many locals.
> 
> View attachment 12485



I fail to see why they would not market Massachusetts and New-Hampshire.  Not marketing Montreal makes sense at this point.  Jay is one hour less of driving and currently has a lot more to offer.

Once the hotel is built, I could see Burke successfully market mountain-biking to Montrealers.  This would require mending fences with KTA however.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ahh... I had actually forgotten his name.  His LinkedIn page makes no reference to Burke, so maybe it was never updated when he took the job at Burke.



Nope, no shake up. Still here, just was on vacation last week. Marketing and Events coordinator is a position we're looking to fill. I gotta get around to updating that LinkedIn page one of these days.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

Glad to hear!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Will the beds have Quilts on them?



I'm not sure, but the word on the street is that the bathrooms will have lots of Q-tips.  Actually, I should keep my mouth shut.  That may wind up being their next ski school marketing slogan.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2014)

I have not been to Jay in some time, but on my visits before the big expansion there were lots of folks from Quebec and BTV.  Not many locals per se because there just aren't that many relatively speaking.  

Burke, on the other hand, relies more on the folks in their backyard and the (relatively few) BMA affiliated family and friends that ski there.  Hence why they need to be more diplomatic about all things local.  

Obviously they are anticipating an increase in skier days when the hotel opens but the market is flat right now and I just don't know whose skiers they are going to steal.


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## dlague (May 1, 2014)

Ouch!  That is a BIG logo!


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## VTKilarney (May 1, 2014)

I'll repost it with a smaller version.  (Note: original post was just deleted, and is now reproduced with a smaller image immediately below at #1281.)  For some reason, when I edited the original post to swap out a smaller image it kept the original (large) image in the post as an attached image.


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## VTKilarney (May 1, 2014)

In light of the SAM article, I thought that I would try to help out and design a logo for Burke that incorporates a "Q" into their logo in a manner that the public might get behind. 

I started with an existing logo. I thought that this was important in order to show people that it's still the same great mountain. Next, I added a "Q" into the logo. To draw the eye, I altered the letter "Q" somewhat. I think the result shows old blending with new, and is something that tells consumers that the mountain's traditions are not going away as we look toward the future. 

What I am most proud of is that this new logo captures just how well "Q" blends with the original Burke name.

Here is what I came up with:


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## dlague (May 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What I am most proud of is that this new logo shows just how well "Q" blends with the original Burke.



As in it doesn't!  Good one!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Another Stenger project in trouble. This was to be used for the big convention center/hotel/restaurant in Downtown Newport. It's not a good sign when Pomerleau is in doubt about this thing:

http://www.newportvermontdailyexpres...vention-center

 It is just a short snippet. Hopefully there will be more.....


----------



## dlague (May 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Another Stenger project in trouble. This was to be used for the big convention center/hotel/restaurant in Downtown Newport. It's not a good sign when Pomerleau is in doubt about this thing:
> 
> http://www.newportvermontdailyexpres...vention-center
> 
> It is just a short snippet. Hopefully there will be more.....



Well it sounds like he was trying to sell the property.  My guess is they could not come to terms!  Well that sucks for Newport - I remember when that strip mall went in!


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

dlague said:


> Well it sounds like he was trying to sell the property.  My guess is they could not come to terms!  Well that sucks for Newport - I remember when that strip mall went in!



If that was the case, Stenger probably would have said something about it.  Pomerleau is no dummy.  The property is old, and retail commerce has shifted from Newport to Derby (especially with Wal-Mart coming to Derby), so I have no doubt that he was a motivated seller.  Heck, Pomerleau has GIVEN away more property than most of us will own in our lifetime.  

It's too bad.  Newport has done a lot to improve its lakefront, and this was one of the last major pieces of the puzzle.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If that was the case, Stenger probably would have said something about it.  Pomerleau is no dummy.  The property is old, and retail commerce has shifted from Newport to Derby (especially with Wal-Mart coming to Derby), so I have no doubt that he was a motivated seller.  Heck, Pomerleau has GIVEN away more property than most of us will own in our lifetime.
> 
> It's too bad.  Newport has done a lot to improve its lakefront, and this was one of the last major pieces of the puzzle.



Retail commerce may have shifted but the Grocery Store, Hoagie's Restaurant, Rite Aid, and the movie theater (only one in a 40 mile radius) are still used by lots of people. Tony Pomerleau (96 yo?) has close ties to Newport since that is where he lived as a child. That guy has made A LOT of very wise property investment decisions. I think, until he sees the Renaissance Block funded (the other project in downtown Newport) and under construction, he wasn't going to part ways with this rather valuable piece of waterfront property only to have it end up vacant until EB5 money _maybe_ comes in .


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

dlague said:


> Well it sounds like he was trying to sell the property.  My guess is they could not come to terms!  Well that sucks for Newport - I remember when that strip mall went in!



I don't think that is the case at all.  Stenger trotted out Pomerleau as being in support of the effort and has been very involved with him.  I think that FTN is right in that things are not going as quickly as planned and that he is protecting himself.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 5, 2014)

Trailboss, protecting himself from what? If he sells, the property is someone elses liability. If he keeps it... then he is exposed to any ramifications of the other Newport project not being built, i.e. Newport continues to be stagnate. Not sure I understand your logic of protection, but I have picked up here you are a savvy lad so please elucidate.....


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Retail commerce may have shifted but the Grocery Store, Hoagie's Restaurant, Rite Aid, and the movie theater (only one in a 40 mile radius) are still used by lots of people.



I don't disagree, but the Newport location is not where future growth will occur.  Pomerleau has to know that this will have a pressure on rents.  The smaller stores and movie theater are certainly very viable, and I believe will continue to be viable with the right tenants.  The Vista grocery store is a dinosaur - especially since the new Price Chopper opened.  The parking lot is never that busy.  It's largely relegated to people with no car and older people.  If Wal-Mart is also going to carry a full range of groceries, Vista is pretty much a dead man walking.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, protecting himself from what? If he sells, the property is someone elses liability. If he keeps it... then he is exposed to any ramifications of the other Newport project not being built, i.e. Newport continues to be stagnate. Not sure I understand your logic of protection, but I have picked up here you are a savvy lad so please elucidate.....



This is exactly my point.  With all of the growth in Derby, the best protection was to sell the property.  Pomerleau has seen what has happened in the Burlington area.  Derby is fast becoming the Shelburne Road or Taft Corner of the Newport area.

A good analogy is the Littleton, NH area.  There was explosive retail growth in the meadows area.  And up the road, heading into town, is an old strip mall that is now vacant.  Even the national-chain pharmacy pulled out.

With the addition of Wal-Mart, Derby is going to attract tons of Canadians. They are going to do their shopping on the Derby Road, and only a very few will venture into Newport.  Retailers are going to want to be where all of that action is - and not in downtown Newport.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, protecting himself from what? If he sells, the property is someone elses liability. If he keeps it... then he is exposed to any ramifications of the other Newport project not being built, i.e. Newport continues to be stagnate. Not sure I understand your logic of protection, but I have picked up here you are a savvy lad so please elucidate.....



FTN's point below:



from_the_NEK said:


> Retail commerce may have shifted but the Grocery Store, Hoagie's Restaurant, Rite Aid, and the movie theater (only one in a 40 mile radius) are still used by lots of people. Tony Pomerleau (96 yo?) has close ties to Newport since that is where he lived as a child. That guy has made A LOT of very wise property investment decisions. I think, until he sees the Renaissance Block funded (the other project in downtown Newport) and under construction, he wasn't going to part ways with this rather valuable piece of waterfront property only to have it end up vacant until EB5 money _maybe_ comes in .



If Stenger's other project takes off, the Renaissance Block, then Pomerleau stands to see the value of his parcel increase.  He obviously wants top dollar for it.

We can only speculate as to why it is not going ahead right now.  My memory was that the waterfront gig was going to be a joint Stenger/Pomerleau project.


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## from_the_NEK (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Vista grocery store is a dinosaur - especially since the new Price Chopper opened.  The parking lot is never that busy.  It's largely relegated to people with no car and older people.



Which is exactly why Tony probably doesn't want to see it closed. Tony has a long history of helping the less fortunate. If that means maybe taking a loss by keeping a grocery store within walking distance of downtown open, I think he would do it.





VTKilarney said:


> A good analogy is the Littleton, NH area.  There was explosive retail growth in the meadows area.  And up the road, heading into town, is an old strip mall that is now vacant.  Even the national-chain pharmacy pulled out.



Not really a good example. That strip mall in Littleton (the one with Rite Aid in it?) is still open. I think the other storefronts in the building are vacant. Additionally, it is not really a pedestrian friendly location. It is over a 1/2 mile from most of downtown Littleton. People get in their cars to drive that far. And now with all of the development in the meadows area they keep on driving. The Newport area in question is within a 1/2 mile of almost all of downtown Newport. 
And the Shelburne Road/Tafts Corners development analogy doesn't hold a lot of water either. There are several grocery stores in "downtown" Burlington that are still open. Not everyone wants to hop in their car to go grocery shopping. Especially people that may have limited access to cars/vehicular transportation.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> If Stenger's other project takes off, the Renaissance Block, then Pomerleau stands to see the value of his parcel increase.  He obviously wants top dollar for it.
> 
> We can only speculate as to why it is not going ahead right now.  My memory was that the waterfront gig was going to be a joint Stenger/Pomerleau project.


Stenger was supposed to purchase the Waterfront Plaza from Pomerleau.  He has already purchased one building from Pomerleau that he intends to use for retail space.  The Renaissance Block will also have retail space.  I suspect that Pomerleau has thought through the impact this new retail space will have on his Waterfront Plaza property.  

Nonetheless, it is Pomerleau who walked away from the deal.  So he can't be too desperate to sell.  

I see three likely possibilities:
1) Pomerleau felt that the EB-5 gig was up and, after waiting for four years to close a deal, decided to wait no more.  He could have been getting a lot of pressure from his tenants, and could not sign long term leases unless he parted ways with Stenger.
2) Pomerleau was approached by a different investor who wants to purchase the property.  Perhaps that investor is interested in building their own hotel on the property.
3) Pomerleau is going to build a hotel himself.

Let's face it.  How many waterfront properties are there in Vermont that can be permitted for a resort hotel?  I'm willing to bet that there aren't that many, and even fewer in a location that is commercially viable.  With the new shoreline protection rules coming into place, an already commercialized site has even more value.  I have always felt that a hotel with retail space was a fantastic use for that space - especially since Newport has really improved its downtown waterfront.  I hope that, one way or the other, I live to see this happen.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Which is exactly why Tony probably doesn't want to see it closed. Tony has a long history of helping the less fortunate. If that means maybe taking a loss by keeping a grocery store within walking distance of downtown open, I think he would do it.



That is a great point.  For all of the (undeserved) flack that Pomerleau has gotten over the years, he is deeply committed to the Northeast Kingdom and has routinely engaged in extremely charitable acts.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

WCAX expanded their article.  See it here: http://www.wcax.com/story/25430753/proposed-newport-hotel-project-stalls

Stenger's "nothing to see here" attitude is getting to be absurd.  I understand that he may want to keep his cards close to his chest, but at some point you begin to lose a lot of hard earned credibility.  He's getting quite close to that point.  We've had delays explained away because his marketing department needs a break, the Feds are moving slowly, the weather, etc.  Apparently he couldn't come up with an excuse for the Pomerleau property - perhaps because he's drank from that well too many times.  The comments on WCAX's website suggest that a lot of people think that things are falling apart.  Even if that's not true, the fact that Stenger has allowed the public to have such a perception is a blunder.

What's wrong with saying something like: "EB-5 has been a wonderful program four our region.  As more projects are proposed, and competition for funding increases, we need to work harder to obtain funding.  With a track record like ours, this just means that things are going to take a little more time and effort than they had in the past.  We are still confident that the projects will happen."


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

I guess Tony confirmed my thinking on this that (a) he got sick of waiting for Bill to "show him the money" and (b) he's better off in the long run because the value of his land will rise:



> But Pomerleau says after waiting for four years for Stenger to come through with the money, he's canceling the deal.
> 
> Reporter Gina Bullard: Are you upset the deal fell through?
> 
> Tony Pomerleau: Financially no. I'll be better off in the longrun.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Since Pomerleau is still willing to sell the land, that's the only thing he could have said.  But I suspect it's also true.  I am sure the land was paid for long ago, which means that he's continuing to collect rents with very low overhead.  He's also got very good occupancy and waterfront property that can be developed won't get any easier to come by.  While I have expressed concerns for a tenant like the Vista Supermarket, that is one fine piece of property because of its location.  So while I still believe that Pomerleau would be better served by selling it, I'm confident that he can find someone other than Stenger to sell it to if he's motivated.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Since Pomerleau is still willing to sell the land, that's the only thing he could have said.  But I suspect it's also true.  I am sure the land was paid for long ago, which means that he's continuing to collect rents with very low overhead.  He's also got very good occupancy and waterfront property that can be developed won't get any easier to come by.  While I have expressed concerns for a tenant like the Vista Supermarket, that is one fine piece of property because of its location.



That's fair to say.  

And I know that some may not think that this is a big deal, but, unfortunately, it is because Tony is probably THE LARGEST AND OLDEST commercial developer in Vermont and he is from Newport.  Bill partnered up with him very early on and Tony was a big supporter because this was going the help his hometown.  That fact that he is backing out is not good at all.  Not good


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> That fact that he is backing out is not good at all.  Not good


I believe Tony 100% when he says that he wanted that project for Newport.  If this is indeed the case, the only interpretation is that Tony believes that Stenger is in no position to get it done.  He's left the door open for Stenger to get his act together, but I bet you the reason he went public is to send a message to other developers that he's willing to chat.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I believe Tony 100% when he says that he wanted that project for Newport.  If this is indeed the case, the only interpretation is that Tony believes that Stenger is in no position to get it done.  He's left the door open for Stenger to get his act together, but I bet you the reason he went public is to send a message to other developers that he's willing to chat.



Maybe.  We can only speculate.  But I know that any EB-5 investor on the fence will see this as a vote of no confidence.  That is not good at all for all of the projects.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Wow, this is sounding worse and worse.  Folks should watch the video.  

http://www.wcax.com/story/25430753/proposed-newport-hotel-project-stalls

Tony Pomerleau says that this is off because Bill Stenger doesn't have the money.  This is not the first time that Bill has had a great idea and no money to do it.  Any other NEKer will recall that he talked for decades about the golf course at Jay.  The first time I visited Jay in 1992 they had an ad selling house lots for the golf course that was not built for almost ten years.  

Pomerleau has owned the land since 1932.  So he owns it free and clear and is getting revenue from leases.  He is going to sign leases with his tenants for up to ten years!

From the story and what Pomerleau said, it sounds like they had entered into an option agreement and Stenger did not come up with the money in time, so it is off.  

What is most troubling to me was that WCAX interviewed both guys before and after their "meeting" with Stenger saying to WCAX they still had a deal and Pomerleau saying no.  Very, very troubling.  

Pomerleau also is someone who would not do this so publicly; he is the father-in-law of Senator Leahy, as in the same Senator Leahy that is working with Bill Stenger on the EB-5 stuff.  If Pomerleau is openly pulling the plug, then something is really, really wrong here.  And I hate to tell Bill but I never go to business meetings dressed like that.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

The video was very interesting to say the least. In my opinion the biggest revelation (among a couple of big ones) in the video is that Stenger conceded that EB-5 money will not fund the purchase the property.  He is now scrambling to try to find private investors.  If this is not an indication that EB-5 fundraising has become extremely difficult, I do not know what is.  Pomerleau came across much better in the video.  Stenger seemed almost panicked, especially when caught making an emergency visit to Burlington.   I'm not sure what he has to gain when he essentially calls Pomerleau a liar regarding whether or not Pomerleau told him the deal was off.

Again, I don't know why Stenger is so afraid to admit that competition for EB-5 funds has increased. I still think people would trust him even in a more competitive it environment given his track record.  Is it possible that another project, such as the Renaissance Block, is contingent on the hotel going forward?


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The video was very interesting to say the least. In my opinion the biggest revelation (among a couple of big ones) in the video is that Stenger conceded that EB-5 money will not fund the purchase the property.  He is now scrambling to try to find private investors.  If this is not an indication that EB-5 fundraising has become extremely difficult, I do not know what is.  Pomerleau came across much better in the video.  Stenger seemed almost panicked, especially when caught making an emergency visit to Burlington.   I'm not sure what he has to gain when he essentially calls Pomerleau a liar regarding whether or not Pomerleau told him the deal was off.



I watched it again.  I was pretty disturbed by how he did not answer the question about having the money.  "I will have it" and then saying some stupid comment about the Tram Haus that was completely irrelevant.  



> Again, I don't know why Stenger is so afraid to admit that competition for EB-5 funds has increased. I still think people would trust him even in a more competitive it environment given his track record.  Is it possible that another project, such as the Renaissance Block, is contingent on the hotel going forward?



I think that he is just caught off-guard.  He was so excited because they FINALLY found money to do what they wanted to do and they were far ahead of a lot of folks.  But I think that perhaps they got overly optimistic and have overpromised what they can do and may be in trouble.  Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

Tying this back to Burke, speaking for myself I'd be really surprised if they do begin the hotel at Burke.  If they do, I hope that they have ALL the money in hand (as in 50 investors paid in) to COMPLETE the Hotel and RUN IT properly.  There would be nothing worse for Burke then for them to start construction and run out of money before completion.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

The Burlington Free Press has an article posted online.  The reporting is what you'd expect from the Free Press.  The only thing their story adds is that a) Stenger won't return their phone call; and b) Quiros Sr. did not at all anticipate that a property owner wouldn't wait more than four years for payment.  

As for Burke... I had become much more optimistic lately, but I had a nagging fear that the "site work" may be nothing more than a feint.  For all of my optimism, there were a couple of very troubling indications, such as a) Peak CM did not appear to bid out the work; b) Peak CM issued a press release saying that they were "released" to begin construction, yet Andrew cryptically suggested that the "release" wasn't a release at all; and c) No indication whatsoever of pre-construction activity on-site.  

I agree that it would be much worse for Burke if the hotel project is abandoned mid-construction.  It would essentially be Burke's version of Pyongyang's Ryugyong Hotel.

Here is the one thing I do know.  Stenger and Quiros are running short on excuses.  If things are not working out as planned, they can only pretend that the emperor has clothes for so long.  

But I keep coming back to my question: Why are the being so defensive about this?  Why are they petrified to admit that competition has increased?  
We shall see what, if anything, develops this summer.


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## from_the_NEK (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree that it would be much worse for Burke if the hotel project is abandoned mid-construction.  It would essentially be Burke's version of Pyongyang's Ryugyong Hotel.



But at least the Bear's Den would still be alive! :beer:


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)




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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Stenger insists once again that Burke construction will begin in June: http://digital.vpr.net/post/newport-revitalization-plan-hits-roadblock


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Stenger is quoted in the VPR article as saying that construction has begun on the ANC plant.  This is simply not true.  Their permit is limited to partial demolition of the old Bogner plant.  They still need an Act 250 permit to begin construction on the ANC plant.

Source: http://newportdispatch.com/demolition-permit-issued-to-anc-bio-vermont/


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Here is a gem of a Stenger quote from the VPR article: _I met with Tony Pomerleau today and we have agreed to continue negotiating on the sale of the Newport Waterfront Plaza._

Was he at the same meeting as Tony?  Or is this Stenger's idea of negotiation:
P: I need a deposit.
S: Can I give you 1/10th of the deposit we agreed upon?
P: No
S: Will you wait four years for me to come up with a deposit?
P: No
S: Will you keep waiting for me to come up with some money?
P: No
S: Thanks for negotiating with me.  I am glad we have agreed to continue negotiating.


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## ScottySkis (May 5, 2014)

Sorrybabout what is going on guys and gals. It be great if we could get oweners at Burke like the owner at Magic and Platty. Maybe theybshould coke up with season pass for these 3 hills. The epic snow stys good pass.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

I think that we just saw Bill Stenger schooled by a 96-year old.


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## thetrailboss (May 5, 2014)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  :blink:  How can this be so the opposite of what we just heard and saw on WCAX?  

http://digital.vpr.net/post/newport-revitalization-plan-hits-roadblock



> "I met with Tony Pomerleau today and we have agreed to continue negotiating on the sale of the Newport Waterfront Plaza. Both Tony and I have some more work to do regarding these negotiations but we are both still supportive of the project and want to see it come to fruition. We both agree strongly that the Marina, Hotel and Conference Center would be a good thing for the City of Newport as it would bring many good paying jobs to the area and economic benefits for decades to come. Unfortunately, the Federal Government has slowed down the processing of EB-5 applications and this has led to certain delays in project development. While this is frustrating for all involved, we are hopeful that the processing times will return to normal shortly. In the meantime, we are pleased that construction has begun on the AnC Bio facility and that there will be a groundbreaking for the construction at Burke Mountain in June. In addition, I just returned from a fundraising trip in Asia with Senator Leahy and Congressman Welch and results from that trip are encouraging."



Tony said it was dead and that he is resigning his tenants; he also hinted he'd do the project himself.


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## xlr8r (May 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  :blink:  How can this be so the opposite of what we just heard and saw on WCAX?
> 
> http://digital.vpr.net/post/newport-revitalization-plan-hits-roadblock
> 
> ...



What is a Senator and a Congressman doing going on these field trips with Stenger to Asia.  What a waste of their time.  Aren't there more important things they could be working on either for Vermont or in Washington, instead of chasing rich immigrants to build a hotel.  

Its time for everyone involved to admit they are having trouble getting investors.  It was obviously to good to be true when they were proclaiming their plans a year or two ago.  Now reality has hit them and there is no backup plan and just by looking at Stenger's interview you can tell he is scrambling.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Another gem of a quote from Stenger: _"Both Tony and I have some more work to do regarding these negotiations"_

Stenger is being disingenuous by characterizing this as "negotiations."  A price had been agreed upon.  All Pomerleau wanted was for Stenger to pay what he said he would pay - or for that matter to pay the deposit he agreed to pay.  Not much to negotiate there.  You either pay or you don't get the property.


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## VTKilarney (May 5, 2014)

Tuesday's edition of the Caledonian Record has a front page article about this.  Unfortunately, there isn't anything substantively new from Pomerleau or Stenger.  The article is essentially a re-hash of comments made to WCAX story and Stenger's email to the press.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

I vote to keep this thread burke-centric, or lets start a new one.....hotel or bust.


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## burski (May 6, 2014)

its all connected so it makes sense to keep it together, hotel or bust, eb5 and burke bust...


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I vote to keep this thread burke-centric, or lets start a new one.....hotel or bust.



It's all related.  

Another observation: last fall the Merck Window Factory project was quietly shelved because "they were not going to generate enough jobs."  Now we are hearing that part of the problem is that the feds are questioning job creation numbers for all EB-5 projects.  So it comes back to not enough jobs being created.  

For example, the Burke Hotel is set to cost, what, $25 million?  That is 50 investors x 10 jobs each = 500 jobs.  Will that hotel create 500 jobs?


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

*BFP on the issue...nothing really new other than Stenger did not have the money.*


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## SkiRaceParent (May 6, 2014)

I for one do get concerned when things are falling apart in Newport. These things ARE interrelated, unfortunately, in my opinion....hope the other shoe doesn't fall and further impact the Burke Hotel project.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

sure its related via EB 5 and Stenger but unless you are telling me these projects are being sold to investors as a package, then no they are not. The fundraising for all of these projects is siloed (i.e. an investor knows where his money is going- it doesnt go to Stenger to then distribute to his projects as he pleases). Tell me if I misunderstand how Stenger and Quiros are marketing the NEK initiative. 

So in line with that, Burke could successfully woo investors for a hotel, while the project in Newport never gets off the ground. True or false? 
Trust me, I want this project to succeed, but the difference between building a hotel at burke, a basic amenity for a ski mountain that already has a wholly developed infrastructure, and the Newport projects, is vast. I never saw any of the Burke projects beyond the hotel happening, and definitely never thought this Newport thing would work.


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## SkiRaceParent (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> sure its related via EB 5 and Stenger but unless you are telling me these projects are being sold to investors as a package, then no they are not. The fundraising for all of these projects is siloed (i.e. an investor knows where his money is going- it doesnt go to Stenger to then distribute to his projects as he pleases). Tell me if I misunderstand how Stenger and Quiros are marketing the NEK initiative.
> 
> So in line with that, Burke could successfully woo investors for a hotel, while the project in Newport never gets off the ground. True or false?
> Trust me, I want this project to succeed, but the difference between building a hotel at burke, a basic amenity for a ski mountain that already has a wholly developed infrastructure, and the Newport projects, is vast. I never saw any of the Burke projects beyond the hotel happening, and definitely never thought this Newport thing would work.



While I technically agree with everything you said, it still leaves me concerned about the current EB5 process and what they may not be telling us from a funding standpoint with the hotel at Burke. i also was a skeptic on all the additional projects at Burke except the hotel. I will leave the more detailed rebuttal to VTKillarney an TrailBoss since they seem to play more buttoned down skeptic than I do, but again, while agreeing with your post, I still remain concerned.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I for one do get concerned when things are falling apart in Newport. These things ARE interrelated, unfortunately, in my opinion....hope the other shoe doesn't fall and further impact the Burke Hotel project.



I think that my initial optimism in 2012 was based on a presumption that with Bill talking about these big projects that he at least had SOME investors lined up and that they had SOME money.  But it sounds like they went out, did a HUGE PR tour when they had $0 and anticipated that they would have no problem getting the investors.  Now, with everyone and their grandfather trying the EB-5 approach for capital, and in perhaps more profitable sectors, and a decreasing number of available investors, it sounds like they are having a harder time than thought getting the money.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> sure its related via EB 5 and Stenger but unless you are telling me these projects are being sold to investors as a package, then no they are not. The fundraising for all of these projects is siloed (i.e. an investor knows where his money is going- it doesnt go to Stenger to then distribute to his projects as he pleases). Tell me if I misunderstand how Stenger and Quiros are marketing the NEK initiative.
> 
> So in line with that, Burke could successfully woo investors for a hotel, while the project in Newport never gets off the ground. True or false?
> Trust me, I want this project to succeed, but the difference between building a hotel at burke, a basic amenity for a ski mountain that already has a wholly developed infrastructure, and the Newport projects, is vast. I never saw any of the Burke projects beyond the hotel happening, and definitely never thought this Newport thing would work.



They are all being jointly marketed as one big project with Stenger and Quiros being the consistent factor.  That's fairly obvious and has been all along right from the "Press Conference Tour" in the Fall of 2012.  Sure they are siloed, but any investor is going to Google Stenger or read about the other projects and see what's happening.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

intersting read here from march in the WSJ. 

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324445904578285863761735122

Trailboss- without even attempting to think I understand EB-5, seems like the job creation takes into account jobs saved as well as ripple effect jobs- would think with Burkes history "jobs saved" is proveable (hotel is needed to make the ski area viable), and the ripple effect jobs + people working on the hotel itself should make the number. But I would love to know what Stengers economist (assuming he has one if the Trapp lodge does) says on this- how can we get a copy of the actual Burke pitch to investors? anyone?


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that my initial optimism in 2012 was based on a presumption that with Bill talking about these big projects that he at least had SOME investors lined up and that they had SOME money.  But it sounds like they went out, did a HUGE PR tour when they had $0 and anticipated that they would have no problem getting the investors.  Now, with everyone and their grandfather trying the EB-5 approach for capital, and in perhaps more profitable sectors, and a decreasing number of available investors, it sounds like they are having a harder time than thought getting the money.



dont disagree but not sure its fair to say they had no money- $300mm into Jay is a heck of a pile of other peoples money.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> dont disagree but not sure its fair to say they had no money- $300mm into Jay is a heck of a pile of other peoples money.



But did they have any money for the other projects?  That's the question.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> intersting read here from march in the WSJ.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324445904578285863761735122
> 
> Trailboss- without even attempting to think I understand EB-5, seems like the job creation takes into account jobs saved as well as ripple effect jobs- would think with Burkes history "jobs saved" is proveable (hotel is needed to make the ski area viable), and the ripple effect jobs + people working on the hotel itself should make the number. But I would love to know what Stengers economist (assuming he has one if the Trapp lodge does) says on this- how can we get a copy of the actual Burke pitch to investors? anyone?



That seems to be the issue (and I can't see the whole article).


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> The fundraising for all of these projects is siloed (i.e. an investor knows where his money is going- it doesnt go to Stenger to then distribute to his projects as he pleases).



You are correct.  Each project has its own funders, and stands on its own.  But this does not mean that news about one project is irrelevant to another.  If Gamma Trucking posts a big loss because it is harder to find affordable fuel, would you not be braced for Beta Trucking to report a loss?  We are talking about market factors that apply to each project.  You are correct, though, that investors may be more skittish of one project over another.  But the reality is that Stenger hasn't been able to get ANYTHING off of the ground so far this summer.  

We have a couple of things at work that impact Stenger's projects:
1) It is now known that Stenger is not coming close to meeting his promise on payback of capital.  Phase 1 investors were promised 5 years.  They will only get 40% back after 14 years, and are promised a massive balloon payment of 60% of their capital in year 15.  Any bets on the likelihood of that balloon payment being made in full?
2) There is a massive amount of competition for EB-5 funds.  It is now a buyer's market, and those buyers expect to see a return on their investment.  They are no longer willing to lose the money just for a green card.  Times have changed.
3) Some of the NEK projects may indeed be contingent on others.  It is certainly possible that Renaissance Block investors will only allow the project to be built if the waterfront hotel is built too.  These projects enhance each other, and an investor may put rules upon their investment for that reason.
4) While Burke needs a hotel, there is no confidence at all in its management team.  That in and of itself makes the hotel project a tough sell.
5) Stenger isn't being forthright.  He is clearly whitewashing the situation - but it's not working.  Everyone can see through it.  Investors may be spooked by that type of leadership.
6) Stenger has pissed off at least one very important person - Tony Pomerleau.  Tony still throws a lot of weight around up in the Kingdom.  He is a much better ally than enemy.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You are correct.  Each project has its own funders, and stands on its own.  But this does not mean that news about one project is irrelevant to another.  If Gamma Trucking posts a big loss because it is harder to find affordable fuel, would you not be braced for Beta Trucking to report a loss?  We are talking about market factors that apply to each project.  You are correct, though, that investors may be more skittish of one project over another.  But the reality is that Stenger hasn't been able to get ANYTHING off of the ground so far this summer.



They are even more closely related than that with essentially common leadership (Stenger and Quiros).

And agree again that something is really wrong if Tony Pomerleau is calling BS.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

Vt Kilarney- great stuff.  totally agree on several points- the first point you make is to me the most critical. And Bill is watching years and years of good will evaporate here, sad to see but its true.  
 But I again think that Burke stands on its own, separate from these. If I was an investor being pitched,  I would  see that Ary Quiros Sr. has thrown way more strikes than balls as a businessman, and I would look at the occupancy rates at Jay, which are through the roof, and think these guys know how to build/manage a ski area (or heck a waterpark!). But i respectfully disagree on your choice of analogy regarding how a commodity price effects different, similary situated business's- I dont see it applying in this instance. The economics of Burke as an existing historical entity and a recent beneficiary of significant capital improvements, as well as it being the centerpiece of a viable 3 season tourist area with KT's growth, paint a far different picture than re-building Newport, which is essentially an economic wasteland, and has been for years. They are not appies to apples outside of the management team.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Vt Kilarney- great stuff.  totally agree on several points- the first point you make is to me the most critical. And Bill is watching years and years of good will evaporate here, sad to see but its true.
> But I again think that Burke stands on its own, separate from these. If I was an investor being pitched,  I would  see that Ary Quiros Sr. has thrown way more strikes than balls as a businessman, and I would look at the occupancy rates at Jay, which are through the roof, and think these guys know how to build/manage a ski area (or heck a waterpark!). But i respectfully disagree on your choice of analogy regarding how a commodity price effects different, similary situated business's- I dont see it applying in this instance. The economics of Burke as an existing historical entity and a recent beneficiary of significant capital improvements, as well as it being the centerpiece of a viable 3 season tourist area with KT's growth, paint a far different picture than re-building Newport, which is essentially an economic wasteland, and has been for years. They are not appies to apples outside of the management team.



You need to review what Stenger and Company are saying.  They are not marketing these as separate projects but as a single effort to "Rebuild the Kingdom".  After all it is called * the Northeast Kingdom Economic Development Initiative*.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> But did they have any money for the other projects?  That's the question.



i dont think anyone thought, or expected, that the projects in 2012 had any funding. They clearly werent going to be funded before the initiative was announced? that is not to discount what are clearly diminished expectations, slapped by the real world they done got.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You need to review what Stenger and Company are saying.  They are not marketing these as separate projects but as a single effort to "Rebuild the Kingdom".  After all it is called * the Northeast Kingdom Economic Development Initiative*.



and, if you read that article- "But each project within the initiative is distinct and must pass its own EB-5 vetting process, he said. As such, each project also must meet a distinct job creation target".

not trying to cause fights here. But these projects, whether they are/were flying under the same flag, are all separate and distinct.  I would bet my lunch money that the actual investor pitches are not done on the macro level, how could they be if the actual investments are not allocated like that? So I dont think your point holds. These are not links in a chain.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> and, if you read that article- "But each project within the initiative is distinct and must pass its own EB-5 vetting process, he said. As such, each project also must meet a distinct job creation target".
> 
> not trying to cause fights here. But these projects, whether they are/were flying under the same flag, are all separate and distinct.  I would bet my lunch money that the actual investor pitches are not done on the macro level, how could they be if the actual investments are not allocated like that? So I dont think your point holds. These are not links in a chain.



I think it's funny that the fact that they are marketed as one initiative smacks you in the face and you still deny it.  Go to Jay's *website and read the information.*  Give them your Email address and you will see that they say:



> Jay Peak owners Ariel Quiros and Bill Stenger announced a $600 million economic revitalization initiative designed to bring up to 10,000 jobs to Vermont’s Northeast Kingdom. Known as the Northeast Kingdom Economic Development Initiative, the enterprise encompasses five projects stretching between Jay Peak Resort, Newport and Burke Mountain Resort. It is believed to be the largest initiative of its kind in the history of Vermont.



That is what they are saying.  That is what they are marketing to me, a prospective person reading the information.  Of course they are technically separate entities but they are under Stenger and Quiro's common management and marketing.  Each investor can choose what project in which they want to invest.  

Now one thing that you said was that if you were going to invest in Burke you'd be encouraged to invest based on Jay's track record.  Granted, on the EB-5 site they only tout Jay's projects as being the "success" stories, but you would not read up about Burke, a going entity?  Well what about Burke's past two seasons?  Would the (negative) coverage from the industry magazine, and in the press in general, on the name change make you wonder?  Would the negative publicity regarding the KT debacle also concern you?  And would the fact that there are other projects that Stenger is heading up are having problems?  

I'm sorry that I am asking you specifically, but I do so because most of us are skeptical of what is happening with Burke and these other projects; my impressions was that you came in telling us that we were all crazy and that you knew better.  :???:


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

i am not denying how the project was described here in the US, not delusional. But- THERE IS NO ACTUAL  MARKETING IN THE UNITED STATES. See my point? I did raise the question earlier- is this how they are being marketed to the actual investors? I dont know, but I am willing to bet these projects are not being sold on the ground in China, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc as a whole unit, because factually they are not. I dont understand what is so complex about that. An investor in burke is not an investor in Jay is not an investor in Newport. therefore, what is being presented for domestic consumption is somewhat irrelevant.  

I would also point out that multiple pages of skepticism on this thread were wiped away by one post from Burke management on the hotel construction, so the sky is falling crowd here doesnt move me much. I have seen it all at Burke from Kitchel to Quiros and have skepticism aplenty, but as a fomer businessman, the idea that there is parity amongst these various projects on an economic basis is false, with their being distinct risk/reward calculations.Thus my statement that the newport hotel news doesnt belong on this thread, despite the clear management nexus. 

I think regarding burkes negative "coverage" you are showing a bit of cocoon syndrome on your part. Burke had a better year this year compared to prior years financially, taking into account everything you cite, as well as having a horrible, awful early season snow year. In the investing world, increasing profitability is far more dispositive of future success than rear looking management errors, which you correctly cite as issues regardless. To me, that is grounds for optimism. You and I both know if it snows a bunch next winter, burke will sell alot of lift tickets, the Q's be damned. You can not prove any causality between the widely known missteps of the Q's and the financial bottom line at burke. They are not correlated based on current evidence. My understanding is also that multiple condo properties were sold at Burke over the winter that had been listed for awhile, so it does not appear investors are that concerned about the Q's ownership either.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

> i am not denying how the project was described here in the US, not delusional. But- THERE IS NO ACTUAL  MARKETING IN THE UNITED STATES. See my point? I did raise the question earlier- is this how they are being marketed to the actual investors? I dont know, but I am willing to bet these projects are not being sold on the ground in China, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc as a whole unit, because factually they are not. I dont understand what is so complex about that. An investor in burke is not an investor in Jay is not an investor in Newport. therefore, what is being presented for domestic consumption is somewhat irrelevant.



Take a look at their website.  And yes they do market in the U.S. because there is a cottage industry in the U.S. of immigration and business lawyers who do this work and connect foreign investors to projects.  

Your point was that, basically, trouble with one project should not impact the others.  I pointed out that this was a joint effort and you disputed.  



> I would also point out that multiple pages of skepticism on this thread were wiped away by one post from Burke management on the hotel construction, so the sky is falling crowd here doesnt move me much.



I think most of us are taking a "wait and see" approach.  And yes you seem to not be skeptical of what is going on and I and others are wondering why.  



> I think regarding burkes negative "coverage" you are showing a bit of cocoon syndrome on your part. Burke had a better year this year compared to prior years financially, taking into account everything you cite, as well as having a horrible, awful early season snow year.



Really?  How many articles have been in the media about them?  I probably pay (too much) attention to anything Burke because it's where I grew up, but I think that a fair assessment of recent media attention could be classified as at least skeptical.     

And second the mountain, from what published sources reported, had a terrible first half with 40% fewer skier days; they attributed that to weather and other factors.  The year ended at the same, or pretty damn close to it, as is the history.  This is not better than compared to the past few years.  

And they have not reported on any revenue, at least not publicly.  As a self-espoused former businessman you'd understand that a private venture would generally not report this information publicly.  The only time I can recall recently was when Burke 2000 did was a general statement in 2001 that they ended in the black.  



> In the investing world, increasing profitability is far more dispositive of future success than rear looking management errors, which you correctly cite as issues regardless.



Where did you see any report of a profit?  



> To me, that is grounds for optimism. You and I both know if it snows a bunch next winter, burke will sell alot of lift tickets, the Q's be damned. You can not prove any causality between the widely known missteps of the Q's and the financial bottom line at burke.



Hold on there--again, WHERE are you seeing that they did better financially?  We only know that skier days remained the same.  And you would not be concerned about all the management decisions?  Really?!



> They are not correlated based on current evidence. My understanding is also that multiple condo properties were sold at Burke over the winter that had been listed for awhile, so it does not appear investors are that concerned about the Q's ownership either.



Multiple being two?  Three?  When were they sold?  A lot of the criticism of Burke specifically came in December with the burning of bridges with KT and subsequent attention given to the name change and other things.  I've heard from folks there of A LOT of problems--staff quitting midseason, snowmaking not being done right, some pretty unprofessional remarks made in the media, etc.  I'd understand your point if units were flying off the shelves now, but it seems that there are a lot of questions that folks like me are asking and a lot of concerns.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I would also point out that multiple pages of skepticism on this thread were wiped away by one post from Burke management on the hotel construction, so the sky is falling crowd here doesnt move me much.



I was very respectful of Andrew's willingness to step into the lion's den.  Don't take my respectfulness as evidence of decreased skepticism.  Just today I spoke with a very informed person about the odds of the hotel being built this summer.  His/Her response: "No way."

Andrew stated the following: _"Peak CM is the company that will build the hotel, and as they said in their release, they're ready to go. Nothing's really left to occur, construction will start soon; by 'green light' I just meant that once the snow's melted/ground thawed, everyone looking at the site and saying "Yes, it's time to drop a shovel in the ground."_

Isn't it time to drop a shovel?


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

Caledonian Record, April 10, 2014. Forgive me if I got the  details wrong re. "profit". Revenue at burke was up 10%. 
"Reviewing this year's ski season, Quiros said the snowfall was below average and was the third worst in the last eight years. Still he said the resort's skiing revenue improved 10 percent over last year, and 33 percent over two years ago. The number of skier visits were the same this year as last, but 25 percent more than two years ago. "We appreciate the support of everyone who visited us this year," he said."

well, ok, thats pretty much good news, right? Would you invest in a business with year over year growing revenue? I would. 

Skier visits... We have been over this. Nobody ski's in new england when multiple rain storms are followed by temperatures consistently in the -30's. is this the Q's fault? No.  To infer otherwise is silly.  up 25% from 2 years ago? Guess people dont really care about the name, or KT, etc. How else does one see this? in the face of everything you state as a negative, revenue and skier visits are up. Good thing. Apologize if I am messing with the narrative on this thread. 

The condo's have all traded since December, this can be verified on the local MLS. 

And yes, I dispute the projects are all linked, because, outside of the managment nexus, they are not. Separate legal ventures. I understand what your saying abour management perception, but I think there are factors that balance this that are being ignored here. 

And not sure why you care if I am skeptical. Of course I am.  But wanna bet the hotel gets built? Like I said, I dont buy the rest of it. is that not skeptical enough for you?

 I skied almost 2 dozen days at burke this year. Not once did I feel impacted by managements decisions, staff leaving, anything.  Burke was Burke this year. Others may have had different experiences, and I am sorry for that. But I have been skiing at Burke for almost 40 years, and let me tell you, not much has changed.  Except for that damn Q


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

I agree that the skiing experience was not really impacted by management with the exception of the snowmaking debacle early on.


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## burski (May 6, 2014)

Dave whats your favorite flavor grape or fruit punch?  I love your tenacity but your perspective to reality when it comes to Q Burke is laughable - you and the bear path condo guy (or are you one in the same) should get some pom poms...  Your adamant defense of all things Q is great - it keeps this thread going. 

hopefully Burke works it out, but I am not sure how they increased revenue even if I were to believe skier visits were flat compared to last year (which I doubt).  They effectively lowered their ticket price to $45/day starting in early February for the remainder of the season, none of their Q logo'd crap sold in the retail shop, and the restaurant was consistently empty all season.  But your right, I believe them, somehow I am sure their revenue grew 10% over last year...


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

burski said:


> Dave whats your favorite flavor grape or fruit punch?  I love your tenacity but your perspective to reality when it comes to Q Burke is laughable - you and the bear path condo guy (or are you one in the same) should get some pom poms...  Your adamant defense of all things Q is great - it keeps this thread going.
> 
> hopefully Burke works it out, but I am not sure how they increased revenue even if I were to believe skier visits were flat compared to last year (which I doubt).  They effectively lowered their ticket price to $45/day starting in early February for the remainder of the season, none of their Q logo'd crap sold in the retail shop, and the restaurant was consistently empty all season.  But your right, I believe them, somehow I am sure their revenue grew 10% over last year...



I think that the revenue numbers are largely influenced by the weather.  Dave pasted the Cal Rec article (thanks, had not seen that) and it said that Burke had a 33% increase in revenue over 2011-2012.  Now anyone who skied that season knows that it sucked weather-wise and Burke closed in like mid-March.  So yes, I'd HOPE that they did better than that terrible season but I'd attribute the better numbers to more snow than any cost cutting or management efforts.  Same could be said for 2012-2013 which I believe got off to a slow start.


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree that the skiing experience was not really impacted by management with the exception of the snowmaking debacle early on.



Agreed also.  And you made a statement earlier about other things that management did that was positive. ie. longer snow making season and extending hours to 5 PM.  It really was a great 2nd half of the season.

How about this statement;

" It is now known that Stenger is not coming close to meeting his  promise on payback of capital.  Phase 1 investors were promised 5 years.   They will only get 40% back after 14 years, and are promised a massive  balloon payment of 60% of their capital in year 15.  Any bets on the  likelihood of that balloon payment being made in full?"

Is this something you know as a fact?  Earlier I thought you said that you got this info from the internet and you didn't consider it a credible source.  If Stenger did indeed default,then why isn't it all over the news?


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

It may not be fact, but it's widely reported and not refuted.  Make of that what you will.


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

burski said:


> Dave whats your favorite flavor grape or fruit punch?  I love your tenacity but your perspective to reality when it comes to Q Burke is laughable - you and the bear path condo guy (or are you one in the same) should get some pom poms...  Your adamant defense of all things Q is great - it keeps this thread going.
> 
> hopefully Burke works it out, but I am not sure how they increased revenue even if I were to believe skier visits were flat compared to last year (which I doubt).  They effectively lowered their ticket price to $45/day starting in early February for the remainder of the season, none of their Q logo'd crap sold in the retail shop, and the restaurant was consistently empty all season.  But your right, I believe them, somehow I am sure their revenue grew 10% over last year...



Hard to believe but not everyone is doom and gloom.  What's the purpose of having a forum if people don't have different perspective on things.  

" and the restaurant was consistently empty all season"  I'm in the Tamarack at least twice a week.  I never saw it empty.


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It may not be fact, but it's widely reported and not refuted.  Make of that what you will.



Thank you,  I didn't think it was a fact.  Only because if it was it would be big news


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

16 Condos sold on Burke in the past year.  That is the most condo sales in a long time.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

burski said:


> Dave whats your favorite flavor grape or fruit punch?  I love your tenacity but your perspective to reality when it comes to Q Burke is laughable - you and the bear path condo guy (or are you one in the same) should get some pom poms...  Your adamant defense of all things Q is great - it keeps this thread going.
> 
> hopefully Burke works it out, but I am not sure how they increased revenue even if I were to believe skier visits were flat compared to last year (which I doubt).  They effectively lowered their ticket price to $45/day starting in early February for the remainder of the season, none of their Q logo'd crap sold in the retail shop, and the restaurant was consistently empty all season.  But your right, I believe them, somehow I am sure their revenue grew 10% over last year...



Burski, idle time and all that!

But I disagree I am blindly defending the Q's. I think their actions on the name change and KT were and are awful. I think EB 5 is deeply flawed, and all the projects are overly ambitious. I think the points I was making about how this is likely marketed to actual investors is being seen as a way to downgrade the Newport new, but it was meant only to reflect what I think is likely occurring, ie segmented pitch's for each element of the NEK plan.

But here is what I also see

 I get numbers are fungible but I highly doubt Ari is lying. I am not overly concerned with management snafus or personnel issue like trailboss because, like I said and VT Killarney agreed, the product was mostly good, and I saw nothing to indicate all winter Burke was falling apart at the seams. Just the opposite.

I also don't think it crazy at all they can raise $25mm to build a hotel. I would like a lot more detail on its funding, but this is very do-able. The rest of the Burke project- no chance. Ideally I would love a mad river/magic solution for burke but since we have team Q so be it.

I have zero financial interest in anything related to Burke. But I am skiing their more than Jay S I get older, and also prefer it when skiing with my children and grandchildren. 
 So I am very much onboard with this discussion.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Thank you,  I didn't think it was a fact.  Only because if it was it would be big news


I did not say that it was not fact.  I said that it has not been verified.  Do you know if it is incorrect?

Stenger has been tight lipped about it.  Don't you think that if the Phase 1 investors got their money back after the promised 5 years Stenger would be letting everyone know?


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> 16 Condos sold on Burke in the past year.  That is the most condo sales in a long time.



That is meaningless.   Price is what matters.  I haven't caught wind that there is a fire sale, but only a fool would measure the economic health of the ski area in number of units sold alone.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier,

Remember the WCAX story about the British attorney (Korda) who was a Phase I investor in Jay Peak?  Remember how he said that, as of November 2013, he still had not gotten his money back?  Remember that he now makes money as an EB-5 attorney?  Do you think he was lying?  

He invested in 2007, and was supposed to get his money back in five years.  2007 + 5 = 2012, right?  When was that interview again?  Oh, right... late 2013.

Are you still suggesting that the exit strategy went according to what was promised, Masskier?

Seriously.  I know that you have economic incentives for Burke to succeed.  I don't blame you for wanting to focus on the positive.  I would too.  But don't treat people here like they are stupid.  If Korda figured out how to do business in the EB-5 world and still maintain his integrity by being honest, maybe you can figure it out too.

Maybe this will help refresh your memory: http://www.wcax.com/story/23895536/bu


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That is meaningless.   Price is what matters.  I haven't caught wind that there is a fire sale, but only a fool would measure the economic health of the ski area in number of units sold alone.



Agreed,  I only offered that info because it was discussed earlier   Sale prices have been going up also.


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## Big Wave Dave (May 6, 2014)

So VT Killarney are lots of sales and rising prices....meaningless? And who is measuring anything on solely amount of sales? Awfully combative. Masskier makes an honest point- was their an actual default? The wcax article is silent, but what is being described would indicate investors don't really care if they get paid back! Not sure that's the point your trying to make....


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

The money was promised to be paid back by 2012.  As of 2013 it wasn't.  That's what they call a default.  Not good advertising for future projects.  Numerous articles say that investors now care about a return on their investment. You can thank competition for that.  

Stenger is now repeating his new mantra: "It's the Feds fault!"  http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...stenger-working-salvage-deal-newport/8780977/


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for the link



VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> "Remember the WCAX story about the British attorney (Korda) who was a Phase I investor in Jay Peak?  Remember how he said that, as of November 2013, he still had not gotten his money back?  Remember that he now makes money as an EB-5 attorney?  Do you think he was lying?"
> 
> ...


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier, are you honestly now ignoring the advertisements and promotional materials that promised a 5 year return?  Really?  Why is it so hard for you to be genuine?


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The money was promised to be paid back by 2012.  As of 2013 it wasn't.  That's what they call a default.  Not good advertising for future projects.  Numerous articles say that investors now care about a return on their investment. You can thank competition for that.
> 
> Stenger is now repeating his new mantra: "It's the Feds fault!"  http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...stenger-working-salvage-deal-newport/8780977/



Would you point us to where you got this info?

"The money was promised to be paid back by 2012"

Because if it is true I would like to know about it.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Agreed,  I only offered that info because it was discussed earlier   Sale prices have been going up also.





Big Wave Dave said:


> So VT Killarney are lots of sales and rising prices....meaningless? And who is measuring anything on solely amount of sales? Awfully combative.



Couple points here. First, the whole "condo sales figure" as an indication of confidence in Burke and Q is attenuated for a number of reasons.  First question, are we talking sales up for Calendar Year 2013?  If so, remember that most of the recent attention to the problems has come in the last few months.  Second, NONE of the condos are owned by Burke or Q--they are all independent operations.  Third, there is an assumption made that the main reason for one to buy was because of the way the mountain is being run.  I think it's fair to say that may be a factor, but it is not the only one.  I have a family member who owns a unit and does the rental pool thing and he told me that his rentals are in fact down.  Last, Masskier and Dave are only focusing on the people's motive to buy and don't consider the motivation to sell.  True that more people purchased, but more people sold.  Why?  The market recovering?  Not happy with the mountain?  Rentals down?  



> Masskier makes an honest point- was their an actual default? The wcax article is silent, but what is being described would indicate investors don't really care if they get paid back! Not sure that's the point your trying to make....



Come on--investors in the EB-5 program don't want any return on their money or even their investment back?  Do you know how dumb that sounds and how that defies business sense?  I understand that the point is that folks look to this to get a Green Card, but they would at least like their money back and somewhat of a return.  More to the point I think that VT Kilarney's point that the current EB-5 investors ARE expecting a return as well as their Green Card is a very good point.  I suppose that some folks only care about the Green Card, but $500k or even $1 million is still a lot of money for the WIDE majority of investors.  And the "low hanging fruit" of folks who had $500 k kicking around for a Green Card with no real expectation of anything else have long been harvested.  

This is a good discussion, but I laugh at how when folks ask some pretty intuitive questions about what is going on and they are dismissed so out of hand.  I think you can't ignore the fact that something seems off and that there is a lot of recent media scrutiny that should not be dismissed as just "doom and gloom."  Folks here like a good discussion and the real dirt and that's what makes it great.  We are going to question things as we should.  

And nobody seems to be questioning Tony Pomerleau's assessment of the situation.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Would you point us to where you got this info?
> 
> "The money was promised to be paid back by 2012"
> 
> Because if it is true I would like to know about it.



Can you comment as to how the EB-5 investors are making out at Jay?


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier, are you honestly now ignoring the advertisements and promotional materials that promised a 5 year return?  Really?  Why is it so hard for you to be genuine?


 
No, I have no idea what you are talking about.  Please give me a link??


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Would you point us to where you got this info?
> 
> "The money was promised to be paid back by 2012"
> 
> Because if it is true I would like to know about it.



I think he did in that link.


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think he did in that link.



Watch the video,  at 2:38 it contradicts what he said.


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## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you comment as to how the EB-5 investors are making out at Jay?



No, I have no idea.  However I would think that if things were not going as per the agreement between Stenger and the investors we would all know about it.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> No, I have no idea.  However I would think that if things were not going as per the agreement between Stenger and the investors we would all know about it.



I think we have a lot of indications as to how things are going and you seem to be ignoring them all!


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Watch the video,  at 2:38 it contradicts what he said.



2:38 has nothing to do with the point that you were all arguing over and that was if Jay has been paying back its first investors as promised!  It was the investor saying that his primary motivation was the Green Card and that he would not have invested in the project without it.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier, here is an example of Jay blowing the "five year payback" horn: http://jaa.org.za/documents/docs/EB-5_International Ad_SA.pdf

And guess what, Masskier.  We DO know that they missed the target with at least Phase 1.  The attorney who invested made that EXTREMELY clear.  

Stop playing games, Masskier.


----------



## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Thanks for the link





thetrailboss said:


> 2:38 has nothing to do with the point that you were all arguing over and that was if Jay has been paying back its first investors as promised!  It was the investor saying that his primary motivation was the Green Card and that he would not have invested in the project without it.



My point was,  I wanted to know if this is true;

 "It is now known that Stenger is not coming close to meeting his   promise on payback of capital.  Phase 1 investors were promised 5 years."

specifically I wanted to know where the 5 year pay back came from.  He offered the link, in the video it states that investors will wait many years.   That was my point.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> My point was,  I wanted to know if this is true;
> 
> "It is now known that Stenger is not coming close to meeting his   promise on payback of capital.  Phase 1 investors were promised 5 years."
> 
> specifically I wanted to know where the 5 year pay back came from.  He offered the link, in the video it states that investors will wait many years.   That was my point.



The latest flier above does say a 5-year pay back with a return on investment (or the hope of one).  And I do recall hearing in here that investors in the earlier phases were seeing the timetable for repayment pushed out beyond what was initially stated.

I also recall press a year ago or so about an investment firm pulling out of Jay and commenting that it was very skeptical of Jay's promises.  That was a short blip on the screen that Stenger brushed off and came a long time before the latest scrutiny (which I don't think we've heard Masskier comment on at all).


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Masskier,

Let me try to simplify this so you can understand it:
a) The attorney in the WCAX video plunked down $500,000 in 2007.
b) As of late 2013, he had no idea when or if he would get his money back.
c) The Wall Street Journal just reported that EB-5 investors are becoming very picky about where they choose to invest.  They expect a real return on their investments.

If you don't see how this puts Jay (and by association Burke) at a competitive disadvantage, then you are an idiot.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Mind you, the only evidence Masskier has ever produced in all of this debate is a phone call with Ary insisting that work would begin on the hotel just as soon as the ground had thawed.  Note to Masskier: The ground has thawed.


----------



## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier, here is an example of Jay blowing the "five year payback" horn: http://jaa.org.za/documents/docs/EB-5_International Ad_SA.pdf
> 
> And guess what, Masskier.  We DO know that they missed the target with at least Phase 1.  The attorney who invested made that EXTREMELY clear.
> .
> Stop playing games, Masskier.



Thanks for the link.  i had not seen that before.  The Atty. made it  very clear that he was tying up his money for many years and the green  card for him and family was his main motivation.

No games,  just because a promotional flyer has a 5 year pay back doesn't necessarily mean that is what is in the investors contracts.  Clearly this Atty is very happy with the program thus he is helping many others get involved.

I would have to think that if in fact there was a default that we would all know about, especially you.


----------



## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The latest flier above does say a 5-year pay back with a return on investment (or the hope of one).  And I do recall hearing in here that investors in the earlier phases were seeing the timetable for repayment pushed out beyond what was initially stated.
> 
> I also recall press a year ago or so about an investment firm pulling out of Jay and commenting that it was very skeptical of Jay's promises.  That was a short blip on the screen that Stenger brushed off and came a long time before the latest scrutiny (which I don't think we've heard Masskier comment on at all).



Do you know if that is a current flyer,  Are they still offering a 5 year pay back?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Do you know if that is a current flyer,  Are they still offering a 5 year pay back?



I think the question was answered as no.  They readjusted the pay back plan from what I understand.  

And I think that this issue is a red herring considering Pomerleau's skepticism and pull-out.


----------



## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> Let me try to simplify this so you can understand it:
> a) The attorney in the WCAX video plunked down $500,000 in 2007.
> ...



Certainly agree that investors today are being much more picky on their eb5 investments, as far as safety of investment and a ror.  I haven't looked at any eb5 prospectus so I don't know how Burke and jay are compare to others. Have you?  I had the opininion that VT had a distinct advantage over other eb5 investment states, in as much Vt is the only state that is regulated by the state government.  I don't think you abc above gives any merits to how good an investment may or may not be.


----------



## Masskier (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Mind you, the only evidence Masskier has ever produced in all of this debate is a phone call with Ary insisting that work would begin on the hotel just as soon as the ground had thawed.  Note to Masskier: The ground has thawed.



You might be surprise, Those trucks may be going by your house any day now.


----------



## the original trailboss (May 6, 2014)

Another interesting conjectural discussion here but if any potential investor did even a little homework he would find that internally Burke is a mess with the most unhappy and frustrated group of employees I can ever remember and that the Kingdom Trails issue is far from resolved - this aside from the fact that Q and company have publicly dissed the history any successes from the past AND the entire community that has been the soul of Burke since Day One....


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## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You might be surprise, Those trucks may be going by your house any day now.


 Which would be after Uncle Ary told you.  I wouldn't go around bragging about that.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

In light of the discussion lately, I think something important needs to be said.  To the extent that I and others, particularly Trail Boss, have been critical of Q-Burke, it is because we care about and love Burke Mountain.  We are critical because we want the mountain to succeed, and to be around for many generations to come.  In order to succeed, we believe that a mountain needs the following:
- Experienced, competent management
- Fiscal stability
- Experienced, competent staff
- Good relations with its partners
- Good relations with its community
- Good relations with its adjacent land/condo owners
- Good relations with the local media
- A respect for the mountain's history
- Integrity in its leadership

This is why we criticize.  Not because we like doing so - but because we want Burke to be the best it can be, and to be there for our children and their children.  It's because we care.  We're not trying to be popular, we're not desperate to have Ary be our friend, and we're not willing to pat someone on the back while they are walking off a cliff.


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## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> No games,  just because a promotional flyer has a 5 year pay back doesn't necessarily mean that is what is in the investors contracts.


Oh, I feel much better now.  This could have just been false advertising.  And here I thought that people might have been upset?

In all seriousness, given this advertising, as well as the statements of investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return, the burden is on you to prove that something different was in a contract.

And this still does nothing to change the reality that we know that Phase 1 investors are still left hanging - and what that means in a competitive marketplace.


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They expect a real return on their investments.



That's the part I don't get.  If there is the need to dangle a greencard in your face to get your money, you should automatically know that it is a high risk investment.  

If you expect to get your money back AND a return on investment AND a green card, I think you're being unrealistic, no mater how it is marketed.


----------



## Masskier (May 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Oh, I feel much better now.  This could have just been false advertising.  And here I thought that people might have been upset?
> 
> In all seriousness, given this advertising, as well as the statements of investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return, the burden is on you to prove that something different was in a contract.
> 
> And this still does nothing to change the reality that we know that Phase 1 investors are still left hanging - and what that means in a competitive marketplace.



"In all seriousness, given this advertising, as well as the statements of  investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return, the burden is  on you to prove that something different was in a contract."

You made the statement I didn't,  I questioned the validity of it and suggested that if in fact there was a default (which is what you are saying) then it would be all over the news.  You provided the video to support your statement.  No where in the video does it say that there was a 5 year payback, instead the Atty stated that he was tying up his money for many years.  You then were nice enough to provide a link to some promotional flyer which indeed used the 5 year as one of its bullets.  

We do know this however, all 35 phase I investors own the hotel.  So they have the equity as collateral for their investment.  So if there was a default it would be pretty easy to remedy through a sale or refinance and get all or most of their money back.


" as well as the statements of  investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return,"

Do you have anything credible to back this up?  Seriously I and I am sure others would like to know.


----------



## bigbog (May 7, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> It has been more than interesting to watch the discussions about the hotel(s) since I began this thread over 18 months ago, and, despite my earlier cautions regarding the scale of the hotel(s) project - Hotel Burke - it is clear that my native/local perspective is not in the majority column. Every time I look at that location from afar and try to visualize the complex I am still amazed that it has sailed through the process and has such a large support base among the Burke community, which in my mind is clearly a non-native, used to growth and change, and beds no matter what, group (I'm sure I'll hear about that one!). The hotel(s) has been marketed and sold as  single structure but in reality it is TWO Tram Haus Lodge 58-room hotels joined together by a lower roofline base lodge that will fill the appointed field and dominate the landscape for many, many miles around. And, as to construction, it is real for June, at least the groundwork. Maybe that will get some attention.................



Ahh TRTB,
 Yeah the people with stuff in their very deep pockets lack the stuff upstairs when it comes to keeping the neighborhood beautiful...as motha nature left it when the last ice age left the area.......ie _the p*ssing contest never ends.._in their minds.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> That's the part I don't get.  If there is the need to dangle a greencard in your face to get your money, you should automatically know that it is a high risk investment.
> 
> If you expect to get your money back AND a return on investment AND a green card, I think you're being unrealistic, no mater how it is marketed.



I don't think that anyone is under the illusion that these are risk-free investments.  I think the fundamental shift in the market is that, due to increased competition, investors are now able to weigh risk among many projects and choose the perceived least risky endeavor.  Jay Peak is somewhat unfortunate in that they have a track record that isn't terribly appealing compared to what other people are promising (even if their promises are not ultimately fulfilled).

There is another potential obstacle.  The Feds are really cracking down on employment estimates.  From what I have read, the process had been a joke.  They have now hired many new people including, for the first time, actual economists to review job creation estimates.  Jay Peak has never had an issue on that front, so perhaps it is not an issue today.  On the other hand, Jay Peak may have just been lucky due to the lack of oversight.  I really don't know.

Another problem with the EB-5 system seems to be the lack of oversight.  Jay Peak should be commended in that no investor has sued them, and they have a phenomenal track record of getting visas approved.  On the other hand, you have (non-Jay Peak) projects where investors have alleged outright fraud.  Surely these allegations alone are causing investors to be much more critical.  

The systemic problem is that the government is promising a benefit without any assurance of the fundamentals of the investment they require you to make to get the governmental benefit.  IMHO, they really should do some oversight.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Do you have anything credible to back this up?  Seriously I and I am sure others would like to know.



Let me make this very simple.  Everything I have read indicates that the Phase I investors were promised a 5 year return on their investment.  This includes statements from people claiming to be investors as well as promotional material.  You can believe it or not.  Assuming you are a logical and rational person, it is reasonable to believe something for which no evidence to the contrary exists.

So with that in mind, let me ask you a very simple question: Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests that the Phase I investors were not led to believe that there would be a return on investment in 5 years?  If you don't, then debating with you is like Galileo debating with the Pope.  We all know how that turned out.

If you have any such thing, then just tell us.  That's how normal engage in constructive debate.

I also wish to make an important clarification.  My understanding is that Phase 1 investors were led to believe that they would have their investment back after 5 years.  I am not suggesting that later investors were led to believe this.


----------



## the original trailboss (May 7, 2014)

Most people come here because it is a very special and unique place (ice age?) But it appears that profit and greed hold more interest for some as opposed to retaining what makes it so special. We have an opportunity in the NEK to do RIGHT what so many others have done wrong.  My bottom line here is "remember what brought you here in the first place!  People who are here just for their own self-interest belong somewhere else.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

Masskier, 

Let me ask you one other simple question so we can move forward with the dialogue.  Do you believe that Stenger is experiencing difficulty attracting EB-5 investors at the pace he had originally anticipated for the yet-to-be constructed projects he has announced?  A simple yes or no will suffice.  

Assuming you agree, what matters is that investors are not showing up as anticipated.  There is no point in debating the minutia as to why they aren't showing up - and/or the accuracy of that minutia.  That's a complete distraction from a discussion about the consequences of the actual problem.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

Things have just gotten very interesting.  

In his email to the press after Pomerleau pulled the plug on the sale of land for Stenger's waterfront hotel, Stenger stated the following:
_"We both agree strongly that the Marina, Hotel and Conference Center would be a good thing for the City of Newport as it would bring many good paying jobs to the area and economic benefits for decades to come. Unfortunately, the Federal Government has slowed down the processing of EB-5 applications and this has led to certain delays in project development. While this is frustrating for all involved, we are hopeful that the processing times will return to normal shortly."_

In an interview with the Burlington Free Press, Stenger said that because of backlogs in the EB-5 process in the federal government, he’s six months behind where he wants to be on the lakefront project in Newport.

VTDigger has just released an article about the Pomerleau/Stenger affair.  This article has a very interesting revelation:  
_"Neither project is enrolled in the EB-5 program, which is the source of funding for the other Stenger and Quiros projects. Brent Raymond, director of the state-run EB-5 Regional Center, said no application materials have yet been received for the Renaissance and conference center projects."_ 

(Article here: http://vtdigger.org/2014/05/07/newport-waterfront-development-falls/ )

So the Feds taking longer to process EB-5 applications has slowed down the Waterfront project _even though no application has been submitted?_


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2014)

Was going to say that apparently Pomerleau has issued one final ultimatum:

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=111277


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## thetrailboss (May 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Things have just gotten very interesting.
> 
> In his email to the press after Pomerleau pulled the plug on the sale of land for Stenger's waterfront hotel, Stenger stated the following:
> _"We both agree strongly that the Marina, Hotel and Conference Center would be a good thing for the City of Newport as it would bring many good paying jobs to the area and economic benefits for decades to come. Unfortunately, the Federal Government has slowed down the processing of EB-5 applications and this has led to certain delays in project development. While this is frustrating for all involved, we are hopeful that the processing times will return to normal shortly."_
> ...



On your flier for the South Africa tour they listed Burke, AnCBio, and something in Newport IIRC.  So the hotel was not one of the EB-5 projects?  

And this is not the first time that Stenger has had a hard time getting money for what he wants to do, hence EB-5!


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## thetrailboss (May 7, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> Most people come here because it is a very special and unique place (ice age?) But it appears that profit and greed hold more interest for some as opposed to retaining what makes it so special. We have an opportunity in the NEK to do RIGHT what so many others have done wrong.  My bottom line here is "remember what brought you here in the first place!  People who are here just for their own self-interest belong somewhere else.



Amen


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> On your flier for the South Africa tour they listed Burke, AnCBio, and something in Newport IIRC.  So the hotel was not one of the EB-5 projects?



It only listed AnC and Q-Burke as current projects.  I hadn't picked up on that.


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## thetrailboss (May 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It only listed AnC and Q-Burke as current projects.  I hadn't picked up on that.



That is a change.  I recall that the airport, Newport projects, factory projects, and resort projects were all supposed to be EB-5 funded.  And slowly they have pulled some of these into private funding.  The airport work is private.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (May 7, 2014)

I bet Tony Pomerleau could raise the EB 5 money!

VT Kilarney- you have proven an excellent source of information, although you do seem a bit... aggressive  At the sake of having my head ripped off for being a Q shill (again), I would love more details on why your "source" is so confident the hotel is not being built. At the end of the day, like I have said, I am very interested in the hotel project, what it means when Stenger says Burke is 25% funded, and how these two pieces of information relate. Any information, even speculative, is welcome by me. My understanding was that the full burke project was 25% funded- is this wrong, and only 25% of the $25mm for the hotel has been raised? What percentage of this money is locked up due to the EB-5 backlog? I get that this information is likely not known exactly, or at all, but welcome your opinion.

I also think the risk management is taking by speaking publicly about funding numbers has to have some sort of calculation behind it. i fail to believe these numbers are being made up and publicly announced with no basis in reality, the blowback potential with an empircal value as a benchmark is enormous.


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## VTKilarney (May 7, 2014)

BWD,

My apologies for getting wound up.  When someone tries to derail a conversation because of a personal bias, I tend to react strongly.  We all have a bias here and there, but most of us can contain them.  But I need to learn to not feed the trolls.  


As of now, I don't have any secret information that makes my opinion anything other than that - an opinion.  I'm just trying to read the tea leaves like anybody else.  Those tea leaves tell me that the engine is not firing on all cylinders.  If that's the case, this could have a dramatic impact on a mountain like Burke.   I'd just rather be prepared, rather than blindly following.   That's just my nature.  That and I like the mental exercise.   

I still believe that the hotel can be built.  I truly do.   I'm just not assuming that it will be.   That's all.

Burke is a great mountain, but it demands great leadership.  I hope it has that.


----------



## Masskier (May 8, 2014)

Well,  The ground has thawed.  The site is drying up nicely.  Hotel is moving forward as per the most recent plans.  Lots of things are in motion.  I would expect ground breaking in early to mid June.

Now, I know this is contrary to many people who believe;
1.  That the hotel isn't funded;
2.  or that the cash is not there to start construction
3.  or in light of all that's been happening it is doubtful whether they will be able to raise enough funds to build the hotel

Disclaimer; I am bias.  I have worked many years to help Burke become sustainable.  I am invested on the mountain and in the community.  I believe that the hotel is critical not only to help sustain the ski area but also for the economic health of the community

In reading back from page 105, I've been criticized, insulted and called names.  And I thought that I was answering a simple question about the status of the hotel.  lol.   I think it is obvious that some of you are just as bias as I am.  Except you only want to see the negative.  When things are said that don't seem right to me, I question it and ask for it to be substantiated.  Sometimes it is and other times it's not and the tone becomes aggressive.  So in light of everything VTK,  unless there is an act of God or a new major set back, Those trucks will soon be going by your house.  And that should be good news for everyone who cares for Burke and the surrounding area.

And the source of my information today is "meetings with people at Burke", "conversations with Peak CM employees" and meetings at BMA.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

If this indeed happens, it is fantastic news!

Any discussion on the time frame for completion?

If you have felt needled, it's generally when you obfuscate or throw logic and/or reason out the window.  If you don't do that, I think the discussion would be much more productive and therefore not adversarial.


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

Masskier,

Based on your conversations, how much of the hotel is actually funded?  Assuming they need 100% funding to finish construction, this would be important, no?  Is there any indication whatsoever that they may need to terminate construction prior to completion?  I'm hoping the answer is no.


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## thetrailboss (May 8, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Disclaimer; I am bias.  I have worked many years to help Burke become sustainable.  I am invested on the mountain and in the community.  I believe that the hotel is critical not only to help sustain the ski area but also for the economic health of the community



I think we all have this interest; but if you're going to be making a disclaimer then you should add that you have a significant monetary interest involved in Burke.  You admitted this openly a few years back when Riverc0il brought it up.  



> In reading back from page 105, I've been criticized, insulted and called names.  And I thought that I was answering a simple question about the status of the hotel.  lol.



Criticized and questioned yes.  That is to be expected.     



> I think it is obvious that some of you are just as bias as I am.  Except you only want to see the negative.  When things are said that don't seem right to me, I question it and ask for it to be substantiated.  Sometimes it is and other times it's not and the tone becomes aggressive.



In my experience, folks are fine unless they are questioned or probed regarding their views.  And then all the sudden they complain it is "personal".  If you think that this place is aggressive or bad then I invite you to engage in conversation on TGR.  You would have already been eaten alive there Masskier.  I think that folks here have challenged others and you in particular.  Is it deserved?  You may not think so, but in my years on here and seeing you involved in Burke talk you've said some things that you've been called out for.  We all would have been.  

I chuckle at this whole "you're all negative" line.  Those of us who have generations in the NEK have a lot of experience with multiple ownerships at Burke.  We've been burned a lot.  In Vermont people really are down to Earth and have always struggled so they are naturally skeptical of things.  We're hardened by all the failures.  Here we've been discussing a lot of things that are publicly reported and I think that there is cause to be concerned.  I haven't heard you say one thing in response to Pomerleau's actions and his message to the public that Stenger doesn't have the cash.  Obviously that conflicts with your monetary interest, so I can understand why you stay quiet.  But to dismiss the increasingly growing pile of facts and concerns as "negativity" I think is not right and perhaps condescending because you're outright dismissing other folks' POV that are different than yours (and sometimes have in the end been right).

And that leads to one last comment I will make is that a lot of folks who ski at Burke are native Vermonters, or folks who were born and raised there for multiple generations.  They're not folks whose worth can be assessed in terms of monetary wealth.  I will speak for myself in saying that we are generally resourceful, genuine, and frank.  I've been pretty frank about things and will be on this point: folks who are not originally from the area and come in looking to prove something to or seek to show that they are better than others is not appreciated.  It crashes and burns.  I've seen it in so many areas.  I've seen some of that attitude and I don't take to kindly to it considering that because I'm from the NEK I am not the stereotypical "heathen" or uneducated hick.  

That's all.  I'm going skiing this weekend.  That makes me happy.   

That's all.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 8, 2014)

...and I just went to Page 105 and see nothing in the way of name calling.


----------



## dlague (May 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think we all have this interest; but if you're going to be making a disclaimer then you should add that you have a significant monetary interest involved in Burke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I like you, am from NEK and skied Jay Peak and Burke as home mountains!  All of this is a distraction and though I do not express an opinion I have seen many failures in Newport as well as changed at Burke!  I hope everything works out all over NEK for my friends and family that are still there.  

We like Burke and do not want to see a repeat of the 90's









Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (May 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If this indeed happens, it is fantastic news!
> 
> Any discussion on the time frame for completion?
> 
> If you have felt needled, it's generally when you obfuscate or throw logic and/or reason out the window.  If you don't do that, I think the discussion would be much more productive and therefore not adversarial.



November,  December 2015  Its a 16-18 month project


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

I said it a few posts back, but I think that it is worth repeating that Burke demands top notch leadership.  It is an undeniable fact that many owners have come and gone - inevitably because they couldn't figure out how to break even.  Other financially marginal mountains have figured things out, but only with innovative leadership.  Many without strong leadership have failed.

If I appear to be critical it's because history has told us that there is no room for error if Burke is to profitable.  My criticism is intended to be constructive criticism designed to encourage acknowledgement of problems which is a prerequisite to the development of a solution.  My interest is in the long term.  It's not about the short term.  It's about making sure that the mountain has the best chance possible to be around for my children and for generations beyond.

Don't confuse passion with negativity.  Sometimes love has to be tough love.  Patting someone on the back when they are making mistakes is not a luxury we have at Burke.  I don't want Burke to be another Ascutney.


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

Masskier said:


> November,  December 2015  Its a 16-18 month project



That gets it open at the beginning of the next ski season - which is obviously a good thing.  Let's cross our fingers that they stick to that timetable since a delay of a couple of months would mean that they would lose revenue for perhaps the busiest time of the year.  

Hopefully you're willing to share your thoughts on my questions in post #1397.


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## VTKilarney (May 9, 2014)

Masskier,

Where are you going to be on June 3rd?


----------



## Masskier (May 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> Where are you going to be on June 3rd?



   Hopefully celebrating !!!  :beer:


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## SkiRaceParent (May 9, 2014)

what's june 3rd?


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## VTKilarney (May 9, 2014)

Hopefully???????


----------



## Masskier (May 9, 2014)

Well, there is always, Acts of God, Economic meltdowns, war  ect,   things that could screw things up.   But give or take a week, it looks pretty definite.


----------



## Masskier (May 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think we all have this interest; but if you're going to be making a disclaimer then you should add that you have a significant monetary interest involved in Burke.  You admitted this openly a few years back when Riverc0il brought it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



TTB,  I am very sensitive to the history of Burke.  After spending a great deal of time here over the past 18 years, I have developed lots of good relationships and have learned a lot about the area.   Besides, several years ago you were nice enough to give me a very detail account of the history.  

I thought my disclaimer was fine.

"  I haven't heard you say one thing in response to Pomerleau's actions  and his message to the public that Stenger doesn't have the cash.   Obviously that conflicts with your monetary interest, so I can  understand why you stay quiet"   

I disagree with that statement.  I'm don't have time to respond to a lot of things.  However the reason I was quiet on this point is that BWD (I think it was BWD) did a good job in explaining that these are individual entities are insulated from each other without any  cross collateral or exposure between them.  So I don't see any conflict between the Newport Hotel and Burke.  Now I understand the point of how it could affect future fundraising, however my position has always been that the total Burke project is at least 25% funded and that is enough to build the hotel.

Thanks for your other insights.   What is TGR?  I will make a point to avoid it.  Have a good weekend skiing.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 9, 2014)

Where are folks seeing June 3rd as a groundbreaking?  I don't see anything on WCAX, VTDigger, Cal Rec, or Burke.


----------



## Smellytele (May 9, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Thanks for your other insights.   What is TGR?  I will make a point to avoid it.  Have a good weekend skiing.



TGR = Teton Gravity Research. If you think people on here are nasty to each other check them out - http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/3-Ski-Snowboard


----------



## Boardguy (May 9, 2014)

Well in spite of all the dire predictions expressed in this thread of late I took a chance and went ahead and purchased my 2014/2015 season pass today. Figured I would vote with my wallet so to speak, hoping for the best and looking forward to a good season. 

With the hotel scheduled to open in Nov. or Dec. of '15 this thread will have a chance to hit 100,000 posts or more. Future topics might include; lots of "will the hotel open on time" (that has already begun), it can't possibly open on time, "I saw one of the cement trucks had a flat tire, oh no there goes the schedule", and "the hotel is supposed to open next week and I have it on good and highly placed authority that the bar cocktail napkins are on backorder". All the burning issues of the particular day. Carry on.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 10, 2014)

Boardguy said:


> With the hotel scheduled to open in Nov. or Dec. of '14



I'm pretty sure it is scheduled for December of '15


----------



## Boardguy (May 10, 2014)

Thanks - knew that - typing error -  fixed


----------



## VTKilarney (May 11, 2014)

Q-Bert had an ad for mountain bike trail maintenance crew members in Saturday's Caledonian Record.  Make of that what you will.

As far as the hotel is concerned, there was an employment ad from Peak CM.   That certainly suggests something is going to happen.


----------



## WoodCore (May 12, 2014)

Ground breaking ceremony for the new hotel is scheduled for June 3rd.


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## Masskier (May 12, 2014)

Ground Breaking News.    Check out Burke's facebook page  https://www.facebook.com/BurkeMtn  for the latest update..


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## fbrissette (May 12, 2014)

WoodCore said:


> Ground breaking ceremony for the new hotel is scheduled for June 3rd.



Great news !


----------



## deadheadskier (May 12, 2014)

Have they revealed any information about the hotel?  How much conference space it will have, biggest ballroom etc.?   116 beds, while a step in the right direction, isn't a heck of a lot, so I hope it has other amenities to bring in revenue.


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## from_the_NEK (May 12, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Have they revealed any information about the hotel?  How much conference space it will have, biggest ballroom etc.?   116 beds, while a step in the right direction, isn't a heck of a lot, so I hope it has other amenities to bring in revenue.


Here is a link to the 1-3 floor plan: http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...Plan A1.0-01 Orientation Plans Floors 103.pdf

The conference room is on floor #2 (left side of the diagram). The full room is about 73x53 feet and it looks like it can be partitioned. 

This weekend I was able to cruise up to the Mid-Burke and observed that there are a bunch of "PCM" construction barriers that have been recently offloaded in the middle lot.

116 Rooms I think (not sure on actual bed count). I would think the actual capacity of the hotel would be closer to 250-300, assuming most rooms will have at least two people staying in them. That is a REALLY big jump over what is available in the area right now.


----------



## Masskier (May 12, 2014)

From Burke's web site;

"Growing Burke 

Construction of the new 116-suite Hotel Burke is scheduled to begin  with a groundbreaking ceremony on Tuesday, June 3, under the direction  of PeakCM, whose President and Owner - Jerry Davis - was responsible for  building the Tram Haus Lodge, Hotel Jay and Pumphouse Indoor Waterpark  at Jay Peak. The new Hotel Burke will take inspiration from the Tram Haus Lodge  at Jay Peak, but have a connection to Burke that is obvious and  important. The Hotel and Conference center will open in November of  2015."


----------



## thetrailboss (May 12, 2014)

I guess I'm still curious as to what the "connection is to Burke".  Maybe their images don't show it, but it looks like the same building as the Tram Haus.  That's a nice building, but I know that a lot of folks suggested that it be different.  

And any progress regarding the KT issue?


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## dlague (May 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess I'm still curious as to what the "connection is to Burke".  Maybe their images don't show it, but it looks like the same building as the Tram Haus.  That's a nice building, but I know that a lot of folks suggested that it be different.
> 
> And any progress regarding the KT issue?




It will frame Willoughby Gap?!  It is on Burke land?  Certainly not from the buildings appearance!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> This weekend I was able to cruise up to the Mid-Burke and observed that there are a bunch of "PCM" construction barriers that have been recently offloaded in the middle lot.



I expect you to be updating your blog with construction photos & news! :-D


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2014)

dlague said:


> It will frame Willoughby Gap?!  It is on Burke land?  Certainly not from the buildings appearance!



It will be a giant "Q" with the Gap in the middle.


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## dlague (May 13, 2014)

This means that the old Mid Burke Lodge will be torn down!


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## Masskier (May 13, 2014)

dlague said:


> This means that the old Mid Burke Lodge will be torn down!



We will have it for another year


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## VTKilarney (May 13, 2014)

The webcam is up for anyone interested in following construction.


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## Highway Star (May 13, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess I'm still curious as to what the "connection is to Burke".  Maybe their images don't show it, but it looks like the same building as the Tram Haus.  That's a nice building, but I know that a lot of folks suggested that it be different.



It's central/northern VT architecture.....certainly not rocket science.


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## MEtoVTSkier (May 13, 2014)

Dump truck just brought a load of gravel/stone...


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## VTKilarney (May 13, 2014)

I was wondering if that is for parking lot maintenance or if it's for the hotel.  Isn't the hotel supposed to be farther down, below the lift?


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Dump truck just brought a load of gravel/stone...
> 
> View attachment 12610



Hilarious that we have play-by-play commentary on this.


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## from_the_NEK (May 13, 2014)

A load of crushed stone and two loads of gravel. Looks like they are done until more EB5 money can be found


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> A load of crushed stone and two loads of gravel. Looks like they are done until more EB5 money can be found



Hey now that is one Green Card's worth of material


----------



## dlague (May 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I was wondering if that is for parking lot maintenance or if it's for the hotel.  Isn't the hotel supposed to be farther down, below the lift?



Yes down towards the back of that grass area  behind the lift terminal.


i typed with my i thumbs using AlpineZone


----------



## Big Wave Dave (May 14, 2014)

oh wait whats this the hotel IS being built?  crow pie all around for lunch for alot of posters on this thread! 

great news. Going to make it my duty to drink in the bears den at least once a week this winter. maybe we should change this thread to "saving the bears den"


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2014)

I've always said that I'd say that I was mistaken if ground was broken.  And I was indeed mistaken.  I didn't anticipate that they would break ground prior to being fully funded - and that's where I erred.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I've always said that I'd say that I was mistaken if ground was broken.  And I was indeed mistaken.  I didn't anticipate that they would break ground prior to being fully funded - and that's where I erred.



Where you erred was that they are actually fully funded for the hotel, or Phase I as they called it. However, they aren't funded for future phases. Andrew told us this awhile ago. 

With that said, where my attention turns now are the following:

(1) What will the impact of the new hotel be to operations and the revenue/profitability of the mountain?
(2) What other projects/phases, if any, will get funded?
(3) What other private investment in the area will get funded, now that the bed base is increasing?
(4) Will this lead to a reuniting of KT and QB, or is this going to empower QB even more on the MB side and keep them separate?

I for one, am also interested in the following. What viability to future owners, besides the bed base, will the hotel have as part of the package? I believe the hotel is owned by EB-5 holders, but if QB ever wanted to sell this mountain to another party, is there any financial incentive to the buyer to acquire the hotel, beyond just it being an asset that provides beds? In other words, would they be able to sell any rights in the hotel and any future cash flow? That may be the most interesting question, what strategic value, besides ancillary revenue streams off of those that can now stay at Burke, is there in this whole endeavor?


----------



## Highway Star (May 14, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Dump truck just brought a load of gravel/stone...
> 
> View attachment 12610



Wow, this is serious, hard hitting news.  Please keep the updates coming!!!


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2014)

Well a couple of piles of dirt does not a hotel being built make.

Anybody have the link to the webcam? Yes I am bored.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Where you erred was that they are actually fully funded for the hotel, or Phase I as they called it. However, they aren't funded for future phases. Andrew told us this awhile ago.



I think there is an assumption that Phase I is completely sold out.  It's clear that they have funds to start it...or so we are led to believe.  



> (1) What will the impact of the new hotel be to operations and the revenue/profitability of the mountain?
> (2) What other projects/phases, if any, will get funded?
> (3) What other private investment in the area will get funded, now that the bed base is increasing?
> (4) Will this lead to a reuniting of KT and QB, or is this going to empower QB even more on the MB side and keep them separate?



I think the hotel will be a big help for those who are not daytrippers.  It will also be a help for the four-season aspect.  

Other phases I believe involve other real estate development with the base area in particular.  This is based on what they initially said with the 2012 Press Conference (referring to multiple lodges).

Any ski infrastructure (lifts, snowmaking, trails) will probably be private funding.  This is based on the requirements for EB-5 in job creation and what they've been doing at Jay.

From multiple sources I am hearing that Q is going it alone in the biking front.  I don't think that is a good idea and a majority don't either.  I think it was a completely unnecessary conflict.  

As to end game and if the area is sold (or when it is sold): I would imagine that the EB-5 investors will own the hotel as some holding entity and Q will operate it.  I imagine that it will be structured such that the Hotel will go with the mountain if it is sold unless there is some sort of involuntary dissolution (bankruptcy).  Otherwise we'd have Bolton Valley all over again.  For those not familiar in the late 1990's the DesLauriers went bankrupt.  Apparently the wife owned the base buildings and it was not subject to the bankruptcy action.  The new operator/owner took over the ski area only to learn that he had no base lodge or facilities and was seriously screwed (hence why Bolt'n failed).


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Anybody have the link to the webcam? Yes I am bored.



http://skiburke.com/webcam


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2014)

whoa 6 piles of stuff now


----------



## deadheadskier (May 14, 2014)

Appears to be a truck in the distance.  Could it contain a 7th pile of gravel?

guess we'll need to wait and find out


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 14, 2014)

I only see a couple guys with skis on their backs getting ready to hike.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 14, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> whoa 6 piles of stuff now


Don't blink, you might miss a pissed off woodchuck getting displaced from his hole.


----------



## Highway Star (May 14, 2014)

Looks like a sideways exclamation point.  Exciting stuff.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 14, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Don't blink, you might miss a pissed off woodchuck getting displaced from his hole.



He's getting ready to file an appeal to the Act 250 permit.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Where you erred was that they are actually fully funded for the hotel, or Phase I as they called it. However, they aren't funded for future phases. Andrew told us this awhile ago.



Andrew said just the opposite.  Look at post #1184.  So while the hotel is being started, there is not yet sufficient funds to finish it.  I didn't think they would take that risk.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Andrew said just the opposite.  Look at post #1184.  So while the hotel is being started, there is not yet sufficient funds to finish it.  I didn't think they would take that risk.



I imagine the remaining funding required for the hotel, if there is any at this point, is a formality. They wouldn't start the project unless they knew that at least a bridge loan or something along those lines was available to complete it.


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## SkiRaceParent (May 15, 2014)

A construction vehicle HAS ARRIVED!


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 15, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> A construction vehicle HAS ARRIVED!



More than that, there is digging going on toward the bottom of the field.


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## VTKilarney (May 15, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I imagine the remaining funding required for the hotel, if there is any at this point, is a formality.



And Pomerleau imagined that the down payment was a formality.  Four years later he was still waiting...  I hope you are right, and I can't imagine they would start construction otherwise, but we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (May 15, 2014)

VT Kilarney.... you win the AZ pessimism award 

I can't read those construction blueprints someone posted earlier to save my life. I thought the hotel was supposed to have a pool, but don't see one- anyone care to enlighten me?


----------



## Smellytele (May 15, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Here is a link to the 1-3 floor plan: http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...Plan A1.0-01 Orientation Plans Floors 103.pdf
> 
> The conference room is on floor #2 (left side of the diagram). The full room is about 73x53 feet and it looks like it can be partitioned.
> 
> ...



Looking at those blue prints there are only 40 units not 116.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Looking at those blue prints there are only 40 units not 116.



That is only the first three floors on that page. I was using that document to answer a question about conference room space. 

The second part of my quote concerning rooms was kind of a speculation on how many people the capacity of the hotel would be based on number of actual rooms. There hadn't been any question as to the accuracy of the "116 rooms" so I didn't post a link to the floor plans for floors 4 to 6 (the 6th floor is actually just attic on the plan). So to keep you from panicking, here is the rest of the floor plan. 40 on the 4th floor, 36 on the 5th. Plus the 40 from the 3rd floor = 116

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...Plan A1.0-02 Orientation Plans Floors 4-6.pdf


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## from_the_NEK (May 15, 2014)

Actually, for those really interested, you can see the entire set of Act 250 documents here:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/ANR/ANRWEB/Act250.aspx

In the project number section enter - 7C0206-13-5


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## Smellytele (May 15, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is only the first three floors on that page. I was using that document to answer a question about conference room space.
> 
> The second part of my quote concerning rooms was kind of a speculation on how many people the capacity of the hotel would be based on number of actual rooms. There hadn't been any question as to the accuracy of the "116 rooms" so I didn't post a link to the floor plans for floors 4 to 6 (the 6th floor is actually just attic on the plan). So to keep you from panicking, here is the rest of the floor plan. 40 on the 4th floor, 36 on the 5th. Plus the 40 from the 3rd floor = 116
> 
> http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...Plan A1.0-02 Orientation Plans Floors 4-6.pdf



lol


----------



## Masskier (May 16, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess I'm still curious as to what the "connection is to Burke".  Maybe their images don't show it, but it looks like the same building as the Tram Haus.  That's a nice building, but I know that a lot of folks suggested that it be different.
> 
> And any progress regarding the KT issue?



There will be an announcement very soon


----------



## thetrailboss (May 19, 2014)

I'm not sure if this will show up or not....



Compliments of a fellow Burke skier.


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## snoseek (May 22, 2014)

Back to the Kingdom Trails mess it looks like an agreement has been reached.


http://skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/Articles/KT-Release.pdf


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 22, 2014)

Good Gravy. It is about time!  :beer:


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## SkiRaceParent (May 22, 2014)

Great news! All the pessimists are really scurrying for bad news, rumors and innuendo now!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Great news! All the pessimists are really scurrying for bad news, rumors and innuendo now!



:roll:

I would not put people into the pessimist vs. optimist camp.  We've had some good discussion here and some good criticism on all sides.  We just want the real dirt, not hype.  

That said, if you read the release, you see that the this is really a truce.  As to the resolution it is good that for now the issue is resolved.  I think, again, that the whole kerfuffle was really not necessary...and it has taken 5 months for this truce and that's what it is.  I think that it's unfortunate that Q could not have handled this better than he did.  We did not need to have a very public PR war that Q launched.  Folks seem to have short memories as to what happened in December and some of the really nasty Emails that Q sent to members of the biking community.  But for now they agree not to agree on everything and it is what it is.  

I also understand that there are other landowner issues regarding Q's biking trails that have not been resolved.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> :roll:
> 
> I would not put people into the pessimist vs. optimist camp.  We've had some good discussion here and some good criticism on all sides.



I agree wholeheartedly. But let's face it, some people very clearly were pessimistic (not antagonistic) during our debate regarding the  positive news that has been coming out recently.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. But let's face it, some people very clearly were pessimistic (not antagonistic) during our debate regarding the  positive news that has been coming out recently.



I'm skeptical and with good reason.


----------



## dlague (May 22, 2014)

I watched some the videos on youtube about trails at Burke and there are some really cool trails i want to try!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> I watched some the videos on youtube about trails at Burke and there are some really cool trails i want to try!



Indeed!


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 22, 2014)

Interesting that QBurke pretty much had to "pay" Kingdom Trails for the Roly Grail trail that was built last year with the Bell Grant. The "payment" is for KT to build a new trail. I wonder where the new trail ends up being built?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Interesting that QBurke pretty much had to "pay" Kingdom Trails for the Roly Grail trail that was built last year with the Bell Grant. The "payment" is for KT to build a new trail. I wonder where the new trail ends up being built?



There needs to be a blue up the mountain road so you don't risk your life riding up the road. That, or a bike lane. Think this is key to the whole area.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> There needs to be a blue up the mountain road so you don't risk your life riding up the road. That, or a bike lane. Think this is key to the whole area.


That sounds like a nice idea. However it would be a huge undertaking to create a trail that has a gentle enough pitch to climb Burke. The Toll Road is already steep and very hard to get up without adding mud, rocks, and other technical features of a trail. A MTB only trail would have to be less steep than the Toll road for that reason. Look at Camptown. It pretty much parallels the Toll Road but has a lot of switchbacks that make climbing it manageable. 
A "Bike Lane" on the toll road would also be extremely expensive since the road would have to be widened in a lot of places to make it work.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That sounds like a nice idea. However it would be a huge undertaking to create a trail that has a gentle enough pitch to climb Burke. The Toll Road is already steep and very hard to get up without adding mud, rocks, and other technical features of a trail. A MTB only trail would have to be less steep than the Toll road for that reason. Look at Camptown. It pretty much parallels the Toll Road but has a lot of switchbacks that make climbing it manageable.
> A "Bike Lane" on the toll road would also be extremely expensive since the road would have to be widened in a lot of places to make it work.



I am not referring to all the way up the mountain, just from town to the sherburne base lodge entrance.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 22, 2014)

This is a negotiated divorce and nothing more.  Given the result, I think the expression of displeasure was warranted.  Unity was a good thing.  A loss of unity is a bad thing.  Why are people so afraid to call a spade a spade?

And Trailboss is correct.  A lot of criticism was over the PR boondoggle.  That was more than deserved.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I am not referring to all the way up the mountain, just from town to the sherburne base lodge entrance.



That would be a fantastic addition.  That narrow bridge has always made me nervous.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That would be a fantastic addition.  That narrow bridge has always made me nervous.



We joked because the State redid those two bridges recently.  They are bad.  Instead of widening them, the kept the same width in the rebuild because of historical reasons.  So they're still dangerous.  Progress I guess.... :blink:


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This is a negotiated divorce and nothing more.  Given the result, I think the expression of displeasure was warranted.  Unity was a good thing.  A loss of unity is a bad thing.  Why are people so afraid to call a spade a spade?
> 
> And Trailboss is correct.  A lot of criticism was over the PR boondoggle.  That was more than deserved.



Yeah I see it is an attempt to put lipstick on the pig. I understand the bottom-line issues that Q intended to address, and I think that is legitimate, but the loss of goodwill and the PR debacle could have all been avoided.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> We joked because the State redid those two bridges recently.  They are bad.  Instead of widening them, the kept the same width in the rebuild because of historical reasons.  So they're still dangerous.  Progress I guess.... :blink:



I think they are actually a foot or two wider than they used to be and I think they realigned them slightly. However, they still suck but I think they may be using them as a bit of a speed control as well.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 22, 2014)

Burnham Down/Up was intended to be used by riders wanting an alternative to road climbing to the base lodge. I t roughly parallels the Mountain road, but it is above the river valley that the road follows.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think they are actually a foot or two wider than they used to be and I think they realigned them slightly. However, they still suck but I think they may be using them as a bit of a speed control as well.



What are you?  An engineer or something?   

I would not be surprised if speed control was an issue.  I just know from a source in the construction biz that the State AOT said that the bridges needed to be similar for historical reasons.  I guess that meant Model T Ford days since they were originally bit in the 1930's as part of the CCC projects in the 1930's IIRC.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (May 22, 2014)

I started using Burnham last year and much prefer it to the asphalt climb up the mountain road.  It's a little steep and wet at the beginning, but still a fairly manageable/enjoyable climb.  That said, I haven't met anyone who was descending on the bridges.  I think most folks (like me) prefer the Moose Alley-White School descent.

I'm satisfied with the exceptions they carved out for weekend biking-- the only mountain trail I used as an XC rider that will now require a pass from QBurke (on the weekend) is Lower J Bar.  I'm sure there are others who will be sore about the loss of the flow trails on the lower mountain.   Anyone know what QBurke will be charging for access/lift pass?

I'm excited for the prospect of a new flow trail.  Without knowing the landowner/land use restrictions, I'd vote for a connector to the right of the Darling Hill climb (above White School) that would connect to the area around Poundcake. I'd also like to see them get access and develop trails around the Victory side of Burke where the CircumBurke runs to help spread out the weekend traffic.  I know a good portion of that is on state owned land.

I think the real test will come when we see how much care is taken by QBurke to maintain and develop the trails on the mountain. On the one hand, they need a guaranteed revenue stream in the summer by filling beds at the hotel, but on the other, KT can do that for them regardless of the quality of the trails at QBurke.


----------



## fbrissette (May 22, 2014)

snoseek said:


> Back to the Kingdom Trails mess it looks like an agreement has been reached.
> 
> 
> http://skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/Articles/KT-Release.pdf



Glad to see common sense has prevailed.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (May 23, 2014)

anyone know what the status is regarding the grant money that was allocated to plannin/building a bike path from E. Burke up to Darling Hill?

recall reading about it in the Cal record a few months back. Would be a great addition to the town and really link up some major resources.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 23, 2014)

Some big equipment in the Mid-Burke lot today.

http://skiburke.com/webcam


----------



## deadheadskier (May 23, 2014)

more dirt piles to!!!!!


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## thetrailboss (May 23, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> more dirt piles to!!!!!



Yeah exactly


----------



## dlague (May 27, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> more dirt piles to!!!!!



Maybe to make a more constant grade between Sherburne Express and Mid-Burke Express!  Not really - would be nice if they could find a solution for that!  Maybe the solution will be the new hotel with a new bar!  Then I would not need the lower mountain since I would not need to go to Tamarack.


i typed with my i thumbs using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (May 27, 2014)

Big rumor flying around about Burke management.  No confirmation yet.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 27, 2014)

dlague said:


> Maybe the solution will be the new hotel with a new bar!  Then I would not need the lower mountain since I would not need to go to Tamarack.



What's wrong with the Bear Den?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Big rumor flying around about Burke management.  No confirmation yet.



so, then why bring it up?

What's the point?


----------



## VTKilarney (May 28, 2014)

The point is to let people know that lots of people here in the NEK are talking about a shakeup in management at Burke.  I thought that was newsworthy in and of itself.  Did I violate a forum rule by mentioning this?

I assumed that it was okay since you, a moderator, once started a thread entitled: "Rumor: Ragged to purchase Ascutney's Highspeed Quad."  We all know how accurate that turned out to be.  

I didn't believe that there is a double standard.  I was obviously wrong.  My apologies.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 28, 2014)

I am attending this event today:
http://www.ncic.org/who-we-are/Upcoming-Events/event-details.aspx?id=24

Hopefully Stenger will give some news about the construction at Burke for me to pass along.


----------



## dlague (May 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> What's wrong with the Bear Den?



Nothing if I want to have a drink!  But the food there is well - ok and minimal.  Trust me I like the old school lodge - at least the Bear Den  side.  The other side where Kingdom Cafe is smells like a locker room on race days!  I have lots of good memories at Bear Den including my Graduation Party while attending LSC and doing shots with the weather people including Jim Cantore who graduated from LSC the same year.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 28, 2014)

Stenger just finished his presentation.  He said some interesting things.  I'll post a summary later tonight.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 28, 2014)

dlague said:


> Nothing if I want to have a drink!  But the food there is well - ok and minimal.



Well that does make sense. In your post above you specifically said "bar" which led me to the question about the Bear Den


----------



## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The point is to let people know that lots of people here in the NEK are talking about a shakeup in management at Burke.  I thought that was newsworthy in and of itself.  Did I violate a forum rule by mentioning this?
> 
> I assumed that it was okay since you, a moderator, once started a thread entitled: "Rumor: Ragged to purchase Ascutney's Highspeed Quad."  We all know how accurate that turned out to be.
> 
> I didn't believe that there is a double standard.  I was obviously wrong.  My apologies.



Settle down Francis.  I wasn't implying you did anything "wrong"

I just felt you were withholding what the rumor is.  Such as, "Rumor around town is that there will be a new operations manager next season"  or something along those lines. Saying there's a rumor there will be a "shake up in management", doesn't really tell the reader much.  That's all I was saying.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 28, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> so, then why bring it up?
> 
> What's the point?


----------



## VTKilarney (May 28, 2014)

I didn't mention specifics since people here tend to pounce if it is not officially announced.  If you want specifics, the rumor is that Ary Jr. Is moving on.   Keep in mind, this is just a rumor at this point, but there is a lot of chatter going on.  Who knows...


----------



## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I didn't mention specifics since people here tend to pounce if it is not officially announced.  If you want specifics, the rumor is that Ary Jr. Is moving on.   Keep in mind, this is just a rumor at this point, but there is a lot of chatter going on.  Who knows...



boom, there you go.  true or not, that has meat to it.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 28, 2014)

I didn't want to stir things up if it was wrong.  I've gone on record saying that he did improve as the season went on.  It was hard for him to recover from his earlier transgressions, though.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

And steamboat, I'm guessing you've read that book about 47 times and still haven't figured it out, but thanks for sharing your summer reading.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 28, 2014)

Ary's departure would be good news; but who replaces him is probably more important.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I didn't want to stir things up if it was wrong.  I've gone on record saying that he did improve as the season went on.  It was hard for him to recover from his earlier transgressions, though.



no worries, you didn't start the rumor.  If that's what people in the NEK are talking about, that's what they're talking about.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2014)

We have been told that skier visits at Burke were flat this year, but that revenues increased slightly.  A lot of cheerleaders were applauding the increase in revenues, suggesting that Ary knows what he is doing.

While Vermont has not released its figures yet, we know that the northeast saw a 20% increase in skier visits this year.  if Vermont has similar numbers, Burke's year appears to be an unmitigated failure.  The only thing I can think of in defense of Burke is that they maybe they have never had much of a difference in skier visits from one year to the next.  If that's the case, that presents a different problem in and of itself.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 29, 2014)

Some actual digging going on this morning.

http://skiburke.com/webcam


----------



## Masskier (May 29, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Some actual digging going on this morning.
> 
> http://skiburke.com/webcam



So the ground has been broken.  Actually it was broken a couple of weeks ago.  But things will really start rocking next week.

They did a lot of clearing just below the site.  Do you know if that's the connector to High Meadow?


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 29, 2014)

I haven't been to the site this week. But if I had to guess I would say a lot of that work way down at the bottom of the site likely has to do with the storm water retention pond construction. Controlling storm water from a construction site is often one of the first things that has to be done.

The storm water retention pond component is highlighted in Blue in this plan: http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...ans/Plan C-402a QBHC General Phasing Plan.pdf


----------



## thetrailboss (May 29, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Some actual digging going on this morning.
> 
> http://skiburke.com/webcam



Stop the presses!  :lol:


----------



## Masskier (May 29, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I haven't been to the site this week. But if I had to guess I would say a lot of that work way down at the bottom of the site likely has to do with the storm water retention pond construction. Controlling storm water from a construction site is often one of the first things that has to be done.
> 
> The storm water retention pond component is highlighted in Blue in this plan: http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...ans/Plan C-402a QBHC General Phasing Plan.pdf



Yep,  That is exactly it.  Thanks.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2014)

Judging by the plans, it looks like there may be very limited Mid-Burke parking next winter due to the main lot being used for construction staging.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2014)

Uggh, I hope that name is temporary...

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=112595


----------



## VTKilarney (May 30, 2014)

Why is it being called the "Tramhouse" hotel?  I know that it's modeled after Jay's hotel (but with a yet-to-be-identified local element), but the last time I checked, Jay actually had a tram.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2014)

I hope it is just the Cal-Rec trying to call the building something before it actually has an official name. Let's start a "What would you name it?" contest 
"Hotel Burke" is what they have on the website (http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php). But that is kind of boring.

My entries:
Burke Haus
Kingdomview Lodge


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2014)

Here is what was going on up at the top of the mountain last weekend. They got snowed out last year. 

Some colorful language so put on the headphones if you need to.







I'm pretty sure they were hitting Tunaspeed at some points.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 30, 2014)

I'd love to know what the insurance costs for an event like that.

They didn't hit Tuna Speed.  Tuna Speed can be calculated as follows: Observed Speed + 1


----------



## thetrailboss (May 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Uggh, I hope that name is temporary...
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=112595



If I had to guess it was another gaffe............


----------



## thetrailboss (May 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Here is what was going on up at the top of the mountain last weekend. They got snowed out last year.
> 
> Some colorful language so put on the headphones if you need to.
> 
> ...



OK that is just nuts....


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> If I had to guess it was another gaffe....



Definitely a toss-up between Q and the Cal-Rec in the gaffe department.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Comparing anyone to Kim Jong Un is rather over the top . Ary may have made some unwise comments but he is far from being comparable to the acts against humanity that occur in NK.



I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there was supposed to be a hint of sarcasm.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there was supposed to be a hint of sarcasm.



Yes.  It was meant to be OTT humor.  Sorry to offend.

And I've deleted the reference.


----------



## dlague (May 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Here is what was going on up at the top of the mountain last weekend. They got snowed out last year.
> 
> Some colorful language so put on the headphones if you need to.
> 
> ...



That is crazy stuff!  I have been looking at long boards for some shorter hills closer to where I live but straight lining it like that is nuts!  Not like they can stop like we do on skis or snowboards if things get out of control!  Plus all the trees zipping by - whoa!


----------



## Masskier (May 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We have been told that skier visits at Burke were flat this year, but that revenues increased slightly.  A lot of cheerleaders were applauding the increase in revenues, suggesting that Ary knows what he is doing.
> 
> While Vermont has not released its figures yet, we know that the northeast saw a 20% increase in skier visits this year.  if Vermont has similar numbers, Burke's year appears to be an unmitigated failure.  The only thing I can think of in defense of Burke is that they maybe they have never had much of a difference in skier visits from one year to the next.  If that's the case, that presents a different problem in and of itself.



20% Increase ????  How about a 0.6% (that's less than one per cent) increase in skier visits in the Northeast this year.  That's pretty flat.

http://www.nsaa.org/media/200772/PressReleaseKottke__2_.pdf


----------



## deadheadskier (May 31, 2014)

I thought that 20% figure sounded kind of off.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 31, 2014)

Last year (12/13 season) skier visits in the northeast were up 20%.

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP9d05a5f265aa4332a7697061b8551fa4.html


----------



## VTKilarney (May 31, 2014)

Major face palm.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Major face palm.



Why?

Skier visits were probably flat or down at Burke last year too.

Anyone have the numbers?


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 1, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Why?
> 
> Skier visits were probably flat or down at Burke last year too.
> 
> Anyone have the numbers?




At the Jay Peak homeowner annual meeting yesterday, Bill Stenger mentioned the following numbers:

0.06% increase for New-England (not a typo or mistake, he repeated the .06%).
8% increase for Jay Peak  (299.5k skier-day from 280k last season - note: this is 7% not sure how they got the 8%).
No mention was made of Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Why?
> 
> Skier visits were probably flat or down at Burke last year too.
> 
> Anyone have the numbers?



Using Ary's own statements, and some other info that was out there, this is what I know.  Historically, Burke is somewhere between 70-80k.  2011-2012 was a train wreck...but that was because of the weather.  IIRC they lost about a month of season like everyone else and closed in Mid-March.  Those weekends they had big events that did draw lots of locals, but without them, their numbers were off.  2012-2013 was better, but a bit below their average.  This year was about the same but with the cuts they made, revenue-wise they were a bit better. 

As to money, the one year that they somewhat publicly reported their figures was in 2000-2001 when they were Burke 2000.  They reported running in the black with a "modest" profit to do maintenance.  Modest being somewhere below $50k.  Since then it has always been in the red or broke even.  2005-2006, the first year of Ginn, it was common knowledge that they lost $2 mill that season.  Another bad winter combined with some really dumb staffing issues.  

So when you read between the lines the statement this year about a "significant" increase in visits over 2011-2012, and slightly better revenue over last season really translates into nothing really big to write home about. 

And yes I'm way too passionate about this.  It is my home mountain.  I love the place.  I just am so :angry: about management so publicly burning my home community.  It's like we lost 20 years of progress.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 2, 2014)

Is anyone going to the groundbreaking ceremony tomorrow?   It starts at 1:30 pm.  Hope to see you there.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 3, 2014)

Looks like the party is getting started on the webcam. There is even a concrete pumper in the background.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Looks like the party is getting started on the webcam. There is even a concrete pumper in the background.



Just saw some pics on FB.  And I heard a rumor that there is a new Burke GM and he is someone familiar to us on AZ.  A Mr. Steve Wright. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 3, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> A Mr. Steve Wright.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

Is Ary Jr. in this photo?


----------



## Masskier (Jun 3, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Just saw some pics on FB.  And I heard a rumor that there is a new Burke GM and he is someone familiar to us on AZ.  A Mr. Steve Wright. Can anyone confirm?



Yes,  Steve was officially named the new GM.   Groundbreaking went well, lots of people, beautiful day.   They also announced that they also received the final approval on bio tech project in Newport.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

So the rumors were indeed true!

They couldn't have asked for better weather.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 3, 2014)

I think that is Ary second from the right. Next to the lady in blue.

Question, what do they do with the fancy shovels and hard hats they have for these dignitary "ground breakings"? Do they reuse them for the next one?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 3, 2014)

Well I guess a congratulations on the promotion is in order for Steve! :beer:

Ary is President and CEO and Steve is General Manager?


----------



## dlague (Jun 3, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well I guess a congratulations on the promotion is in order for Steve! :beer:
> 
> Ary is President and CEO and Steve is General Manager?



Well, I sure hope this gets going so the pessimists can be wrong and the optimist can be right!  So much debate over whether or not the hotel would even get started and now it appears to be under way!  I hope with Steve's experience that he can work things out from a marketing and operations perspective.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 3, 2014)

dlague said:


> Well, I sure hope this gets going so the pessimists can be wrong and the optimist can be right!  So much debate over whether or not the hotel would even get started and now it appears to be under way!  I hope with Steve's experience that he can work things out from a marketing and operations perspective.



+1

Bill S said that there will be about 300 people working on the site daily.  That is quite the crew.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2014)

Congrats Steve!

Hopefully you won't have to put out too many more bad PR fires and you can move forward with the things that matter and are needed to make Burke successful.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

dlague said:


> Well, I sure hope this gets going so the pessimists can be wrong and the optimist can be right!  So much debate over whether or not the hotel would even get started and now it appears to be under way!  I hope with Steve's experience that he can work things out from a marketing and operations perspective.



I think a better way of putting it is that hopefully Steve can fix what is wrong and promote what is right about Burke.   The whole pessimist vs. optimist thing makes me chuckle because it means nothing really.

And I will join the crowd and roll out the red carpet: 

WELCOME STEVE!!!!!!


----------



## Not Sure (Jun 3, 2014)

NEK...Avatar ? Are those PBR flavored "Bomb Pops"


----------



## Masskier (Jun 3, 2014)

Here's the news video on the groundbreaking.  

http://www.wcax.com/story/25680882/groundbreaking-at-the-q-burke-ski-area

Also gives an update on AnC Bio and the Newport Hotel development.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> NEK...Avatar ? Are those PBR flavored "Bomb Pops"



Good one.  The Summer of 2014: summer of the PBR highjack.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Here's the news video on the groundbreaking.
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/25680882/groundbreaking-at-the-q-burke-ski-area
> 
> Also gives an update on AnC Bio and the Newport Hotel development.



The hotel will make a big difference.  And it will show if there is indeed pent up demand for Burke in the overnight visitor market.  If Steve is able to be as aggressive with the promos and deals at Burke as he was at Jay then I think things will be good.  Steve has done a great job at Jay.  He did a good job with Killington considering the cards he was handed by ASC.  

I am wondering what Q's role will be.  

As to the story, the job metrics have come into question lately.  I say that with the "Bill Speak" about 300 jobs onsite and 500 support jobs.  Knowing "Bill Speak" that probably means less jobs than those.  He gets a bit too excited at times about figures   As someone in here pointed out that he told a crowd this week that waterpark visits were "over 300,000" and then told SKI that the visits were "about 400,000".  The jobs are welcome, but are they sustainable or temporary?  Just a thought.  

I'd like to see some improvements with the ski product as well.  Add some snowmaking perhaps?

As to the rest of the report, they got their AnCBio funding approved.  Sounds like the other Jay project is close.  But the Marina Project looks to be stalled.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 3, 2014)

Interesting article from the Vt Digger 

"Q Burke Resort’s 180,000-square-foot hotel is slated to open in December  2015, along with an* aquatic center and tennis facility, whose  construction will commence next spring or summer. *Two more hotels,  adding another 116 units to the mountain, are set to follow."

Here's the link

http://vtdigger.org/2014/06/03/anc-bio-project-approved-ground-broken-burke-mountain/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

Um, what?  :blink:



			
				vtdigger said:
			
		

> AnC Bio’s new green light indicates USCIS approval of the business and its job creation projections. But Q Burke’s first hotel has yet to receive the same thumbs-up from USCIS.
> 
> Project manager Alex MacLean said the team is confident it will obtain the approval and secure the remaining investments needed to complete the project as planned.



Sounds like it is not fully funded?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

The Caledonian is reporting that Ary Jr. Is becoming President of Q Aviation but will remain an "executive" of Burke Mountain.  

Some day Daddy is going to run out of companies for Jr....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

The Caledonian says that Wright will remain based at Jay Peak.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian says that Wright will remain based at Jay Peak.



How is this going to work?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian says that Wright will remain based at Jay Peak.





thetrailboss said:


> How is this going to work?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



*Breaking News:

Warren Buffet still lives in Omaha.
*


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> *Breaking News:
> 
> Warren Buffet still lives in Omaha.
> *



um what?  how is that even remotely relevant?  Buffet is an investor, not a general manager of a business.

We've all seen the impact of a good GM like Mike at Killington.  They're on property accessing business, problem solving and communicating with the guests.  I think it's prudent for Burke that Steve spends as much time on the property as possible.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> um what?  how is that even remotely relevant?  Buffet is an investor, not a general manager of a business.
> 
> We've all seen the impact of a good GM like Mike at Killington.  They're on property accessing business, problem solving and communicating with the guests.  I think it's prudent for Burke that Steve spends as much time on the property as possible.



http://www.investorsfriend.com/Buffetts management talent.htm


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2014)

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/best-things-lunch-warren-buffett/story?id=23975018

Had breakfast with the guy twice in the NYSE luncheon club (now defunct). Didn't cost a cent.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't doubt Buffet's managerial skill, but that's not what he's known for.  

When Killington was essentially managed from Utah, we all saw what happened.  That's my point.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't doubt Buffet's managerial skill, but that's not what he's known for.
> 
> When Killington was essentially managed from Utah, we all saw what happened.  That's my point.



Well that's bad management from Utah not Omaha. Utah can't even manage Utah. I think that's quite evident from recent happenings. My point is you don't have to be hands on to be effective.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

The Caledonian and VTDigger photos confirm that Ary was standing at the end of the line.  He's the not-dressed-like-a-Vermonter guy.

You have to love Vermont.  The one comment posted to the VTDigger article is this:
_"Typical chamber of commerce-like photo op. So, here comes more impervious surface, more non-point-source pollution, less Wild Nature, more cars, more noise pollution, fragmented wildlife habitat, etc. Thanks for all the gifts, which are hardly free."_

Look out for those evil chambers of commerce!!!!!!  I like the redundant term "Wild Nature" - capitalized no less!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Well that's bad management from Utah not Omaha. Utah can't even manage Utah. I think that's quite evident from recent happenings. My point is you don't have to be hands on to be effective.



Yeah POWDR has problems.  As to Buffet, I think that his MO is to buy potential or already successful companies and then work with management to improve them.  I would not call him a general manager.  Considering the major gaffes over the last year and other problems, having a GM on site everyday is critical.  

Steve is no stranger to us and to the industry.  I know that he gets a lot of the concerns.  I just wonder how much authority/autonomy he will have.  I'd be less concerned if Burke was a Stenger venture; but since the Q's own most of it and want to control it I think having someone with industry experience on the grounds is crucial.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian and VTDigger photos confirm that Ary was standing at the end of the line.  He's the not-dressed-like-a-Vermonter guy.
> 
> You have to love Vermont.  The one comment posted to the VTDigger article is this:
> _"Typical chamber of commerce-like photo op. So, here comes more impervious surface, more non-point-source pollution, less Wild Nature, more cars, more noise pollution, fragmented wildlife habitat, etc. Thanks for all the gifts, which are hardly free."_
> ...



Funny.  I would not call the open meadow below Mid-Burke "wild nature".


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2014)

Cal Rec on the event:  http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=112813

First suggestion to Steve would be CHANGE THE NAME BACK TO BURKE.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

If you want to know why mini-Ary is being shown the door, it's because he comes up with quotes like this:
_Ary Quiros, who will be involved in running the airplane facility at Newport Airport and remain active at Q Burke, introduced Tim Tierney, the head of Kingdom Trails, as "my partner."_


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If you want to know why mini-Ary is being shown the door, it's because he comes up with quotes like this:
> _Ary Quiros, who will be involved in running the airplane facility at Newport Airport and remain active at Q Burke, introduced Tim Tierney, the head of Kingdom Trails, as "my partner."_



I thought that was a bit odd.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

And now the town of Killington is trying to emulate Kingdom Trails:
http://www.thevermontstandard.com/2014/05/town-seeks-grants-for-bike-trails/

Unless they can connect with the ski area, this doesn't appear to be any sort of threat.

It seems like lots and lots of places are trying to jump on this bandwagon.  I'm glad that Kingdom Trails got there first.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 5, 2014)

At Tuesday's groundbreaking people were talking about the mid Burke location being one of the nicest hotel sites in the state.  Of course it was a beautiful day with a great view of the Gap.  How many other hotels in VT have the ski in/out access and the views that mid Burke has?  I can't think of any.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2014)

Very true. Most hotels are buried at the base of mountains in a valley. Burke's is going to be 1/4 of the way up the mountain above most of the lower surrounding hills.
The hotel at Bromley has a pretty good view.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2014)

Does anything at Bolton Valley have as good of a view?  It's been a while since I've been up there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> How many other hotels in VT have the ski in/out access and the views that mid Burke has?  I can't think of any.



I think that the skiing experience is going to be far more important to visitors.  If they assume that people will come solely for the view, they are in for a nasty surprise.  But it is a great view.  ;-)


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anything at Bolton Valley have as good of a view?  It's been a while since I've been up there.



Not really. the base of BV is nestled in the valley. The best views would be southwest toward the mouth of the valley but trees block a lot of it. I've never been up in the hotel to see if it gets you above the trees.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2014)

Views from the upper levels of the Sugarloaf Hotel are pretty bad ass.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not really. the base of BV is nestled in the valley.



Bolton Valley has the highest base elevation of any ski area in VT.

Nice view too!.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 5, 2014)

We're talking about the Bolton's hotel at the bottom of the mountain which is actually still in a valley where the long views are limited. There is no argument from me about the top half of the mtn having a great view.


----------



## dlague (Jun 6, 2014)

From the hotel at Bolton the view is lost'


i typed with my i thumbs using AlpineZone


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2014)

Masskier said:


> At Tuesday's groundbreaking people were talking about the mid Burke location being one of the nicest hotel sites in the state.  Of course it was a beautiful day with a great view of the Gap.  How many other hotels in VT have the ski in/out access and the views that mid Burke has?  I can't think of any.



I just wish I could actually be at Burke on a sunny day. I usually can't see more than a few hundred yards when i am there. Some day some day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I just wish I could actually be at Burke on a sunny day. I usually can't see more than a few hundred yards when i am there. Some day some day.



The views are amazing and from many different vantage points.  Also the Abenaki name for Burke was "mountain with a long view".  Quite appropriate.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 12, 2014)

Vermont Ski Areas Association has reported flat skier visits compared to last year:
http://www.skivermont.com/about-us/press-room/press-release/id/651

If Burke's visits were flat, this suggests that Ary-gate was not an overall detriment to operations.  On the other hand, there was no growth which is always a concern for Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont Ski Areas Association has reported flat skier visits compared to last year:
> http://www.skivermont.com/about-us/press-room/press-release/id/651
> 
> If Burke's visits were flat, this suggests that Ary-gate was not an overall detriment to operations.  On the other hand, there was no growth which is always a concern for Burke.



Honestly I'm trying to focus on Steve taking it over......and fingers crossed that things will be better.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Honestly I'm trying to focus on Steve taking it over......and fingers crossed that things will be better.



If he is allowed to give it the attention it needs, I am optimistic.  Jay won two marketing awards this year (in the article linked above), so bringing somebody in from Jay sounds like a good thing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If he is allowed to give it the attention it needs, I am optimistic.  Jay won two marketing awards this year (in the article linked above), so bringing somebody in from Jay sounds like a good thing.



It was what I thought they would do initially...until, well, you know.......

I do think that they need a manger onsite though.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 19, 2014)

I've been up at Burke the past couple of days.  They are making good progress on the Hotel site.  Things are moving along nicely.  Also they are busy finishing up the design on the Tennis and Aquatic centers and hope to start those next spring/summer.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 20, 2014)

Masskier said:


> I've been up at Burke the past couple of days.  They are making good progress on the Hotel site.  Things are moving along nicely.  Also they are busy finishing up the design on the Tennis and Aquatic centers and hope to start those next spring/summer.



Any idea where they are going to build those? 

Field above the Cutter?

Over near the x-Country center?


----------



## Masskier (Jun 20, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Any idea where they are going to build those?
> 
> Field above the Cutter?
> 
> Over near the x-Country center?



Or maybe down by the lower base lodge.  They are still looking at a couple of different options, but should be making the final decision soon.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 27, 2014)

Huge dirt piles in the parking lot now. Site work has progressed a lot already. I think they may have been blasting a few evenings ago. I was at home and could hear faint explosions coming from that direction. Hopefully I can get up there this weekend for some pictures.

http://skiburke.com/webcam


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 1, 2014)

I didn't make it up there this weekend but I did last night. 
They have already started pouring footings:












Incredible sunset last night too.




And no I didn't jump the construction fence. I'm tall and the tilt screen on the camera allowed me to get unobstructed photos


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 1, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> And no I didn't jump the construction fence. I'm tall and the tilt screen on the camera allowed me to get unobstructed photos



Next time, we fully expect you to jump the fence to get closer to the action.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 1, 2014)

Impressive.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks for the update


----------



## mbedle (Jul 2, 2014)

Hell of a picture NEK. Very nice.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 2, 2014)

It would be interesting to get a perspective from higher up to see the size of the area.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 7, 2014)

I see that Burke is now selling "scenic chair lift rides" on the Sherburne Express.  There was even a coupon given to us in the coupon book that we received while staying at Jay Peak.  One can only imagine the amazing scenery from atop the Sherburne Express.  It must take your breath away.  I bet you can see at least 1/10 of a mile from there.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that Burke is now selling "scenic chair lift rides" on the Sherburne Express.  There was even a coupon given to us in the coupon book that we received while staying at Jay Peak.  One can only imagine the amazing scenery from atop the Sherburne Express.  It must take your breath away.  I bet you can see at least 1/10 of a mile from there.



Burke has been selling scenic chair lift ride for a few years now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that Burke is now selling "scenic chair lift rides" on the Sherburne Express.  There was even a coupon given to us in the coupon book that we received while staying at Jay Peak.  One can only imagine the amazing scenery from atop the Sherburne Express.  It must take your breath away.  I bet you can see at least 1/10 of a mile from there.





Masskier said:


> Burke has been selling scenic chair lift ride for a few years now.



The Willoughby or Mid-Burke would be better for sure.  I wonder if they will run it once the hotel is done for summer/fall rides.  They used to run the Willoughby a long time ago for the Burke Fall Festival.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Burke has been selling scenic chair lift ride for a few years now.



That has to be the most insane idea I have ever heard.  $7 to see what the top of the Sherburne Express looks like?  I am sure nobody leaves with a bitter taste in their mouth after buying that ticket...


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Burke has been selling scenic chair lift ride for a few years now.



It looks like it started in the fall of 2010.  Holy cow!  Obviously it's an attempt to pick up a few extra dollars while running the chair for mountain bikers, but I suspect that potential for dissatisfied customers eclipses what little revenue it brings in.

I would actually consider paying a few bucks to ride to the top of the mountain during foliage.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It looks like it started in the fall of 2010.  Holy cow!  Obviously it's an attempt to pick up a few extra dollars while running the chair for mountain bikers, but I suspect that potential for dissatisfied customers eclipses what little revenue it brings in.
> 
> I would actually consider paying a few bucks to ride to the top of the mountain during foliage.



Yeah I thought that they had been doing chair rides on the SX for longer now...back to like 2008 or so.  It is what it is.  I think that they were kind of hamstrung considering that they have two base areas.


----------



## Boardguy (Jul 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that Burke is now selling "scenic chair lift rides" on the Sherburne Express.  There was even a coupon given to us in the coupon book that we received while staying at Jay Peak.  One can only imagine the amazing scenery from atop the Sherburne Express.  It must take your breath away.  I bet you can see at least 1/10 of a mile from there.


 I knew it would not be long before you found something else to complain about.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 7, 2014)

Boardguy said:


> I knew it would not be long before you found something else to complain about.



Meh. 

I think it is a legitimate observation.  But let's be honest--they're struggling to make money in the winter.  Summer operations as they are now are not going to be a big money maker--even with a summit lift running.  I never saw a traffic jam to drive up the Toll Road.  No ski area I know installs a lift with a major focus on summer ops.  If they break even in the summer they are doing well.    

It will be interesting if after the Hotel they expand lift-served biking and if they reunite with KT.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 8, 2014)

Boardguy said:


> I knew it would not be long before you found something else to complain about.



And I knew it wouldn't be long before someone complained about complaining.  ;-)


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2014)

Does anyone know the vertical drop served by the Mid Burke Express?


----------



## WoodCore (Jul 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone know the vertical drop served by the Mid Burke Express?




1550 +/-


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2014)

Thank you!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 9, 2014)

According to the engineering drawing for the project; 1,580'.

Keep in mind the bottom terminal wasn't built as far downhill as it is in the drawing (otherwise the vert would be 1625'). In reality it was built close to the 1,620' elevation contour in the drawing.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-1/Overall Site Plan.pdf


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2014)

I had asked because I was trying to compare Burke to Tremblant.  

The gondola at Mont Tremblant is 8,428 feet long and services 2,116 vertical feet.  Thus, the gondola travels 3.98 feet for every foot it gains in elevation.

The Mid Burke Express at Burke is 5,108 feet long and services 1,580 vertical feet (plus or minus).  Burke's lift travels 3.23 feet for every foot it gains in elevation.

After visiting Tremblant and looking at their trail map, they seem to definitely exaggerate the difficulty of their terrain - or at least conveniently ignore the mid-mountain run-outs that are present.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I had asked because I was trying to compare Burke to Tremblant.
> 
> The gondola at Mont Tremblant is 8,428 feet long and services 2,116 vertical feet.  Thus, the gondola travels 3.98 feet for every foot it gains in elevation.
> 
> ...



Burke, overall, has good consistent pitch.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke, overall, has good consistent pitch.



Until you go sideways (East Bowl run out, Sherburne Express to MBX traverse)


----------



## dlague (Jul 9, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Until you go sideways (East Bowl run out, Sherburne Express to MBX traverse)



Yup! Ski anything off the Sherburne Express - any skier/snowboarder past beginner level more than likely does not ski that section!


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2014)

That's why I didn't include that lift.  Most people ski the Mid Burke lift.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 11, 2014)

I was up at the site earlier today.  Lots of concrete pouring going on.  The project is really progressing.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 11, 2014)

Check out this link for a construction update (2 weeks ago).

http://www.pitchengine.com/pitches/3190df81-04f3-44ee-a2f6-6bbb6fe8c803


----------



## dlague (Jul 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Check out this link for a construction update (2 weeks ago).
> 
> http://www.pitchengine.com/pitches/3190df81-04f3-44ee-a2f6-6bbb6fe8c803




In the article - an expansion of the resort’s mountain bike offerings.  Hmmmm!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2014)

dlague said:


> In the article - an expansion of the resort’s mountain bike offerings.  Hmmmm!



Nice write up.  Now some comments....not complaints:

1.  I'd prefer to see this coming from Burke Mountain and not Jay Peak.  Why is Burke not hopping up and down right now getting the word out about this BIG project?

2.  For the umpteemth time, let's ditch the whole "Q Burke" and "Q Burke Hotel" thing.  It is just silly.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice write up.  Now some comments....not complaints:
> 
> 1.  I'd prefer to see this coming from Burke Mountain and not Jay Peak.  Why is Burke not hopping up and down right now getting the word out about this BIG project?
> 
> 2.  For the umpteemth time, let's ditch the whole "Q Burke" and "Q Burke Hotel" thing.  It is just silly.



Burke should be posting some press releases in the next week or two.  Burke and Jay have a lot of marketing talent and they are putting the finishing touches on Burke's marketing plan.


----------



## burski (Jul 14, 2014)

Massskier I think  you mean Jay has a lot of talent - Burke just can't seem to hold talent for some reason  (I Qannot figure it out)... Hannah - fired, Tom L. - fired, Andrew - on his way out the door...  Not sure which other talent you are referring to?


----------



## Edd (Jul 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> 2.  For the umpteemth time, let's ditch the whole "Q Burke" and "Q Burke Hotel" thing.  It is just silly.



All future threads on Burke should be peppered with unnecessary Qs until the dumb name is changed.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 14, 2014)

burski said:


> Andrew - on his way out the door...



What? Where did you hear this?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2014)

burski said:


> Massskier I think  you mean Jay has a lot of talent - Burke just can't seem to hold talent for some reason  (I Qannot figure it out)... Hannah - fired, Tom L. - fired, Andrew - on his way out the door...  Not sure which other talent you are referring to?



No joke, huh?



Edd said:


> All future threads on Burke should be peppered with unnecessary Qs until the dumb name is changed.
> 
> View attachment 12988



The thing is that Steve is the new manager...and I thought that Little General had declared victory and was moving on to building planes.  I guess I was wrong.


----------



## burski (Jul 14, 2014)

I am not sure why Andrew is leaving and do not want to imply he is being let go or fired, but I am quite sure he is leaving soon and moving on.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2014)

I've stated before that I would be shocked if Andrew did not have resumes out there.  He had a very difficult climate to work in this past year.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2014)

Bummer.  What Burke needs is good marketing and good management.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 14, 2014)

burski said:


> Massskier I think  you mean Jay has a lot of talent - Burke just can't seem to hold talent for some reason  (I Qannot figure it out)... Hannah - fired, Tom L. - fired, Andrew - on his way out the door...  Not sure which other talent you are referring to?



Steve Wright and his team.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2014)

Steve is legit for sure.  Just hope that he is not spread too thin.  Hope he spends some good quality time at Burke.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jul 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Steve is legit for sure.  Just hope that he is not spread too thin.  Hope he spends some good quality time at Burke.



2 ski mountains open 4-5 months a year for skiing, 50 miles apart. I don't think it is rocket science to get this right, especially if you already have street (er, I mean mountain) cred...we will find out shortly what market share Burke can pull from NH and southerly VT mountains based on having more beds and better used marketing budget, and scale in a package with Jay. I suspect we will know whether Burke drives its skier visits up enough or not based on this in 2-3 years time.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> 2 ski mountains open 4-5 months a year for skiing, 50 miles apart. I don't think it is rocket science to get this right, especially if you already have street (er, I mean mountain) cred...we will find out shortly what market share Burke can pull from NH and southerly VT mountains based on having more beds and better used marketing budget, and scale in a package with Jay. I suspect we will know whether Burke drives its skier visits up enough or not based on this in 2-3 years time.



I don't think we should underestimate the value of having management onsite.  Skiing is just a different kind of animal when it comes to business.  Besides that, ASC demonstrates that having remote management does not always work out well.  I recall many, many complaints and problems at Sugarbush and other places because management in Maine was calling the shots and just not there.  As you said, with the hotel going up and other efforts to make Burke a player, it is even more critical to have someone there onsite as often as possible.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2014)

Agreed.  An on-site manager who knows how to run a ski area can get a very good feeling for what the mountain needs.  Things like snowmaking are best managed with "eyes on".  

On the other hand, I can certainly appreciate taking advantage of an economy of scale with the merged Jay-QBurke group.  But at the end of the day it's a good thing to have someone on-site who can make decisions.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 14, 2014)

Well Steve is on site quite a bit.  He is at Burke at least half (if not more) of the week.  He also has a very talented team.  I'm told that the bulk of the energy right now is going into Burke.  They plan to increase skier visit's by 50% in the next 3 years.  The same marketing team had great success at Jay.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Well Steve is on site quite a bit.  He is at Burke at least half (if not more) of the week.


That's a very good sign.



Masskier said:


> I'm told that the bulk of the energy right now is going into Burke.


It's definitely the squeaky wheel.  



Masskier said:


> They plan to increase skier visit's by 50% in the next 3 years.  The same marketing team had great success at Jay.



How much of that percentage will occur naturally as a result of the hotel?  That's awfully ambitious.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Well Steve is on site quite a bit.  He is at Burke at least half (if not more) of the week.  He also has a very talented team.  I'm told that the bulk of the energy right now is going into Burke.  They plan to increase skier visit's by 50% in the next 3 years.  The same marketing team had great success at Jay.



Good to hear.  

And a 50% increase is, I think, somewhat reasonable considering that they are around 80k per year.  So 120k.  The last goal that was made public was to double visits.  That will just take time and snow.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2014)

This past year they were open 110 days, which may have been a few days more than normal.  But for the sake of argument, if we use 110 days, they are shooting for 363 more skiers per day.  That's less than the capacity of the hotel, so it seems quite doable.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 14, 2014)

Out of that 110 days open. The biggest holiday periods before February were pretty bad in the snow dept. 

Once the hotel is built, and if Burke can score a season with good weather for the holidays, they could easily bump up over the 100K skier visits mark. 120K is not out of the question either. Although I hope they fire up the Willoughby quad on those "extra" busy days


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## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2014)

That's one big crane!


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## dlague (Jul 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That's one big crane!



They will need it to lift the room modules and set them in place!  It is like a hotel Lego set!


.......


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 15, 2014)

dlague said:


> They will need it to lift the room modules and set them in place!  It is like a hotel Lego set!



The Tram House Lodge at Jay was frame built. The Stateside Hotel was module built. My guess it the Mid-Burke Hotel/Lodge will be frame built in the same fashion as the THL. 

I saw the crane on the intermittent webcam yesterday.
It looks like the crane is currently being used for moving concrete forms into place. Keep in mind that this building is going to be about 550' long from end to end (1.5 football fields incl end zones). Even that tall crane likely can't reach both ends from a single position.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2014)

dlague said:


> They will need it to lift the room modules and set them in place!  It is like a hotel Lego set!
> 
> 
> .......



God I hope it will be stick built!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 15, 2014)

dlague said:


> They will need it to lift the room modules and set them in place!  It is like a hotel Lego set!



Having seen several modular hotels (including the Contemporary Resort at Disney World), I'm actually pretty impressed with that method of construction.  I was surprised to see that Burke was not using it.  Perhaps it does not allow for angular lines or something like that.

I'm willing to bet that people have been in modular hotels and never known it.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm willing to bet that people have been in modular hotels and never known it.



They are neat to see when they are delivered. Most of the furniture even the pictures on the wall are already in the rooms.


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## dlague (Jul 15, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> They are neat to see when they are delivered. Most of the furniture even the pictures on the wall are already in the rooms.



Stateside is pretty nice and I would never have guessed if I had not seen it being built.  I thought I had heard of plans to go modular, maybe not.  Some where early in this thread.


.......


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## deadheadskier (Jul 16, 2014)

I wonder how EB-5 regulations work regarding modular vs. stick construction.

i.e. were the modular units for Stateside constructed in Vermont or built elsewhere and shipped in?  From a local economics stand point, it would seem stick construction (though likely more expensive for the resort) is probably much better for the local economy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 16, 2014)

I've been told by someone in the trade that VERY few of the construction jobs go to locals whether it's stick built or not.  There may be some truth to this since PeakCM is not based in the Northeast Kingdom.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 16, 2014)

The Stateside Hotel had to be built within a 7 month period between ski seasons or there would have been no lodge at all on Stateside for a ski season. That would have been unacceptable. Hence the modular construction of the hotel section. The lodge section was stick built.
Burke doesn't have to have the hotel lodge done by next ski season and therefore can use the stick built construction technique. Stick built allows for a lot more flexibly in the floor plan. Especially for suites and open areas.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 17, 2014)

Nice weather last night here in the NEK. I managed to get a few keepers...


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## Masskier (Jul 17, 2014)

Wow,  Very nice.


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## Not Sure (Jul 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Wow,  Very nice.



Nice...except for the green leaves looks like fall skies


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## xlr8r (Jul 17, 2014)

Awesome photos looks gorgeous out there


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 18, 2014)

I figured it would be a nice evening for sunsets. Problem is, I wanted to get shots in several different places but the sun and clouds kept moving


----------



## DoublePlanker (Jul 18, 2014)

wow!  Very nice photos


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## Masskier (Jul 20, 2014)

I hiked up to the site this morning.  Looks like all the footings are in, about half of the walls are poured, and the other half are about ready to  pour.  They really have accomplished a tremendous amount of work already.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2014)

Aerial view:


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## SkiRaceParent (Jul 22, 2014)

Supposedly there is also another trail that has been cleared to ski directly from the hotel down to Sherburne without having to go up and around near Mid-Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 22, 2014)

I wouldn't exactly call it a "trail". They just cut an opening through the narrow section of trees between the hotel site and High Meadows Pass.

The yellow section in this plan:


----------



## dlague (Jul 22, 2014)

I hop that they can do something about the section between the Sherburne chair over to Mid Burke.  Add a little filler or grade something.  Doubt they will.  Either way with the new Hotel with bar I am sure there will be not need to go to the lower section so that will not be so important.  Talked myself right out of that one!


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Jul 22, 2014)

Thanks from NEK, that map is v. helpful. I hadn't walked up there, my neighbor just told me about it. Definitely can hear the construction from about mid way between mid burke and sherburne on high meadows...


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> I hop that they can do something about the section between the Sherburne chair over to Mid Burke.  Add a little filler or grade something.  Doubt they will...








   ;-):-D

If they ever move/remove the Willoughby quad, they would be able to straighten and regrade the traverse. However, as it currently stands, trying to regrade the traverse would be difficult without messing up the intersections with other trails that come down to it (Lower Warrens, Lower Fox's, and The Gap.
Is it really that difficult to use your poles and traverse a flat for 100 yards a couple times a day? At least it isn't uphill anymore :lol:.


----------



## dlague (Jul 22, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> ;-):-D
> 
> If they ever move/remove the Willoughby quad, they would be able to straighten and regrade the traverse. However, as it currently stands, trying to regrade the traverse would be difficult without messing up the intersections with other trails that come down to it (Lower Warrens, Lower Fox's, and The Gap.
> Is it really that difficult to use your poles and traverse a flat for 100 yards a couple times a day? At least it isn't uphill anymore :lol:.



Easy for me - sure!  I would not use my poles I skate it!  But the snowboarders have a tougher time with that - NO REAL biggie - just a PITA for them!


----------



## Edd (Jul 22, 2014)

Forgive me, because I'm sure it's been discussed in this thread but does this hotel mean they're removing the day lodge option from mid-Burke? I went to the website and didn't find an answer.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2014)

VTDigger has an update on the AnC Bio project: http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/22/anc-bio-begins-environmental-review-process/

The most interesting thing is that permitting is expected to take upwards of a year.  IIRC, this is in direct contradiction to Stenger's suggested time frame for commencement of construction.

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more opposition from the anti-vaccination, anti-flouride, anti-GMO, anti-nuke crowd.  (In other words, 95% of Vermonters now).  But of course their objections tend to be loudest when projects are in their backyard, such as Chittenden county or Brattleboro.  Hell would freeze over before a wind farm would be allowed on Mansfield or Camel's Hump, but they shake their tambourines with glee so long as it is put somewhere where they won't notice.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 22, 2014)

Edd said:


> Forgive me, because I'm sure it's been discussed in this thread but does this hotel mean they're removing the day lodge option from mid-Burke? I went to the website and didn't find an answer.



The old Mid-Burke day lodge will remain standing through this coming winter. I believe it is slated for demolition soon after the lifts stop spinning in the spring of 2015. The following ski season, the lodge area in the new complex will open along with the new bar.

Unfortunately, it still sounds like the Bears Den is going to get the wrecking ball.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm surprised that there hasn't been more opposition from the anti-vaccination, anti-flouride, anti-GMO, anti-nuke crowd.  (In other words, 95% of Vermonters now).  But of course their objections tend to be loudest when projects are in their backyard, such as Chittenden county or Brattleboro.  Hell would freeze over before a wind farm would be allowed on Mansfield or Camel's Hump, but they shake their tambourines with glee so long as it is put somewhere where they won't notice.



As far as the Chittenden County crowd is concerned, Newport may as well be in Canada.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm surprised that there hasn't been more opposition from the anti-vaccination, anti-flouride, anti-GMO, anti-nuke crowd.  (In other words, 95% of Vermonters now).  But of course their objections tend to be loudest when projects are in their backyard, such as Chittenden county or Brattleboro.  Hell would freeze over before a wind farm would be allowed on Mansfield or Camel's Hump, but they shake their tambourines with glee so long as it is put somewhere where they won't notice.



You are learning fast.....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 22, 2014)

NEK - that is some impressive photography. I'm guessing you do this professionally! Absoulty amazing.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 22, 2014)

Given the amount of solar panels everybody has in their yards, you would think they would want a wind farm....



thetrailboss said:


> You are learning fast.....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 22, 2014)

mbedle said:


> NEK - that is some impressive photography. I'm guessing you do this professionally! Absoulty amazing.



Not professional. Just for fun.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2014)

mbedle said:


> Given the amount of solar panels everybody has in their yards, you would think they would want a wind farm....



You're thinking too logically.......


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2014)

FWIW I saw a FB entry from "Burke Mountain Resort".  Perhaps they have reqonsidered something?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 23, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW I saw a FB entry from "Burke Mountain Resort".  Perhaps they have reqonsidered something?


I don't think their Facebook name ever changed.


----------



## dlague (Jul 23, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think their Facebook name ever changed.



You are right - it never changed!  They do  not reveal much there.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jul 28, 2014)

Interesting article in VT Digger about EB-5 investors at Jay Peak and how their equity has been turned into IOU's.

http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/27/vtdigger-exclusive-jay-peak-loses-trust-first-eb-5-investors/


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

halfpintvt said:


> Interesting article in VT Digger about EB-5 investors at Jay Peak and how their equity has been turned into IOU's.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/27/vtdigger-exclusive-jay-peak-loses-trust-first-eb-5-investors/


This was cross-posted in a new Jay Peak thread - but it is definitely relevant to Burke given that Burke's hotel is apparently not yet fully funded.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

A couple of questions regarding the Jay Peak news that are relevant to Burke:
1) How much of the overall EB-5 funding for the hotel is in place?  
2) If it is not fully in place, how likely is it that private equity will be available to fill the gap?
3) Can current EB-5 investors pull any of their money out at this stage of construction?
4) How, if at all, is the ski area itself connected to the hotel project?  Could this have any impact on operations?


----------



## Edd (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This was cross-posted in a new Jay Peak thread - but it is definitely relevant to Burke given that Burke's hotel is apparently not yet fully funded.



Qrisis at Burke Mountain!!

I'm sorry.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

In light of the Jay Peak news, I have a couple of questions for members of the forum that may be in the know:
Is there any evidence at the work site that the contractor is proceeding beyond the concrete pouring phase?  
A week ago, Masskier said this: _Looks like all the footings are in, about half of the walls are poured, and the other half are about ready to pour. They really have accomplished a tremendous amount of work already._  If that is the case, should we expect to see indications of the next phase of construction at the work site?  Or is it too early to expect to see this?  If there are indications present, what are they exactly?

Given the recent EB-5 news up at Jay, I am concerned that confidence in obtaining a full roster of EB-5 investors for the partially-funded Burke hotel will dwindle, and this may impact the project.  Hopefully this is not the case and all of the pieces are in place (or will soon be in place) to keep things moving along.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Jul 30, 2014)

VT Kilarney, this is a question I raised awhile back when Stenger said Burke was 25% funded. Never got clarity whether that meant the hotel was 25%, or all their projects combined had met a 1/4 funded benchmark. My presumption was that this meant the money for the hotel was in and the other 75% for tennis, aquatics, etc. was not. 

If these guys commenced building a hotel with only 25% of the required money in the bank then they are insane. I just dont see that as being viable so presume the hotel is funded. My opinion is lets stop there with Burke, we dont need tennis and olympic sized pools thank you.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree that I can't imagine that they started construction on the hotel if the hotel itself is only 25% funded.  I'd still, however, like to hear from someone who has observed tangible signs that the next phase of construction is going to happen.  (e.g. steel being delivered to the worksite)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> VT Kilarney,* this is a question I raised awhile back when Stenger said Burke was 25% funded. Never got clarity whether that meant the hotel was 25%, or all their projects combined had met a 1/4 funded benchmark*. My presumption was that this meant the money for the hotel was in and the other 75% for tennis, aquatics, etc. was not.
> 
> *If these guys commenced building a hotel with only 25% of the required money in the bank then they are insane. I just dont see that as being viable so presume the hotel is funded.* My opinion is lets stop there with Burke, we dont need tennis and olympic sized pools thank you.



In these rare instances when "free money" with "no guarantee" is involved, I wouldn't "presume" anything.

My 2¢.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 31, 2014)

Having received no response to my previous inquiry, let me try something more direct.  Does anyone know what the next phase of construction is?  I assume that it involves lots of steel beams.  Would this be a fair assumption?  If it is, has anyone seen steel being delivered to the work site, or is it too early to expect to see that?


----------



## mbedle (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm not sure if anyone is going to know if they were or weren't fully funded before starting the Burke Hotel, but from my own experience as both a owner and subcontractor, I would find it really hard to believe that they weren't 100% funded for the total budget to complete that hotel. The fact that its known that they are doing this with EB-5 money, no sub would commit to starting that project without verifying that the funding for payment is available. Now, that doesn't leave out the possibility of over budget issues.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 3, 2014)

Bike and Brew weekend.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2014)

It's Q Bike and Q Brew. That was this weekend?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## dlague (Aug 4, 2014)

Damn I missed it!


.......


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Bike and Brew weekend.
> View attachment 13077



Hopefully that was early in the day. It looks like all of East Burke was there though.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 4, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Hopefully that was early in the day. It looks like all of East Burke was there though.



Of the 88 photos they posted to Facebook of the event, only one looks like the crowd got much bigger - and even then it's hard to tell because it's not really a crowd shot.

Here is a more panoramic view of the crowd from their Facebook page:


And here is the photo of what looks to be a bigger crowd:


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Of the 88 photos they posted to Facebook of the event, only one looks like the crowd got much bigger - and even then it's hard to tell because it's not really a crowd shot.
> 
> Here is a more panoramic view of the crowd from their Facebook page:
> View attachment 13082
> ...



Nothing like nembafest which used to be at Burke.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Aug 5, 2014)

was in Burke saturday of last weekend. Never seen it so busy all summer. the town and the mountain had lots of bikers. didnt stick around for bike and brew but it looked to me like business was damn good all over.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2014)

Good to hear!  Did you actually make it up to the mountain or were your observations only from in town?


----------



## Masskier (Aug 7, 2014)

Site crew are working overtime.  I just left the site ( just before 6 PM) and they are still working.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Site crew are working overtime.  I just left the site ( just before 6 PM) and they are still working.



That's pretty much standard for jobs like this where the construction season is short.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 8, 2014)

Yeah, that's true for all sorts of projects going on up here right now.  Certainly not worth drawing attention to.

Masskier, any steel delivered yet?


----------



## Masskier (Aug 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Yeah, that's true for all sorts of projects going on up here right now.  Certainly not worth drawing attention to.
> 
> Masskier, any steel delivered yet?



No,  However the project is on schedule.  It will be another week or two before the steel arrives.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 8, 2014)

Good news.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 13, 2014)

Vide of Bike & Brew.  It has some good shots of the crowd for those who want to gauge attendance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Vide of Bike & Brew.  It has some good shots of the crowd for those who want to gauge attendance.



Meh. Not a huge crowd but not a tiny one either. IIRC it's relatively new....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2014)

I thought it was appropriate for a first-year event.  I wonder if they would get more people if it was held on NEMBAfest weekend?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2014)

I thought they did it a few years ago as well.  Like in 2011.


----------



## burski (Aug 14, 2014)

This was the fourth or fifth consecutive year the event has been held, it used to be more of a joint event with Kngdom Trails but not so much anymore.  They also used to set up a very large jump for a professional jump demonstration but that didn't happen this year either.  This years attendance was noticeably down from past years but that should not be a surprise.  There is no longer any connection between the resort and the community.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2014)

burski said:


> This was the fourth or fifth consecutive year the event has been held, it used to be more of a joint event with Kngdom Trails but not so much anymore.  They also used to set up a very large jump for a professional jump demonstration but that didn't happen this year either.  This years attendance was noticeably down from past years but that should not be a surprise.  There is no longer any connection between the resort and the community.



That's the sad truth.  I recall it being a decent event and a nice thing for everyone to attend.  

I also could not help but notice that a lot of those on the video, and in attendance, had "STAFF" shirts on and were likely Qemployees.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2014)

burski said:


> This years attendance was noticeably down from past years but that should not be a surprise.  There is no longer any connection between the resort and the community.


I didn't realize that it had been going on for a few years.  My bad.

The drop in attendance was certainly a foreseeable consequence of kicking KT out of the sandbox.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2014)

Burke has a new promotion.  1% of season pass sales in August and September will be donated to the LSC scholarship fund.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2014)

*Newport Conference Center Deal Falls Through*


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2014)

Web cam seems to be offline.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Web cam seems to be offline.



It was working yesterday. Maybe it melted in the heat (mid-eighties is considered hot up here in the NEK).


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2014)

Camera is back up.  If they aren't on lunch break, it doesn't seem like anything is happening today.  Does the concrete need time to set?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Camera is back up.  If they aren't on lunch break, it doesn't seem like anything is happening today.  Does the concrete need time to set?



I imagine that the concrete does not time to Qure.  

I see equipment moving around.....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 26, 2014)

I think it is just hard to see what they are doing right now since they are working inside the foundation (bottom floor/parking garage). They are likely putting in the floor as well as supports for the upper floors.
They are also likely working on the earthmoving/sitework on the other side of the building where the cam can't see.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2014)

That makes sense.  I'm too used to seeing that crane!


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## VTKilarney (Aug 27, 2014)

An aerial view of the hotel construction:


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 27, 2014)

Nice drone video


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## dlague (Aug 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> An aerial view of the hotel construction:



Quite a few uphill steps to the chair lift!  Yes I am lazy!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 27, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Nice drone video



Get it right.  It's a Qdrone.  

And Q Hotel and Conference Center?  uke:


----------



## Boardguy (Aug 28, 2014)

dlague said:


> Quite a few uphill steps to the chair lift!  Yes I am lazy!



It is closer than it appears.


----------



## burski (Aug 28, 2014)

Was up at Burke last weekend and heard that Steve from Jay has stepped down as GM - not much of a surprise considering the Q track record, food and beverage manager also gone. That's not the worst part, rumor has it that the new GM appointed by Q is a former auto parts salesman - not sure how that will translate to the ski business


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## VTKilarney (Aug 28, 2014)

Is this for real?????


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## Smellytele (Aug 29, 2014)

burski said:


> Was up at Burke last weekend and heard that Steve from Jay has stepped down as GM - not much of a surprise considering the Q track record, food and beverage manager also gone. That's not the worst part, rumor has it that the new GM appointed by Q is a former auto parts salesman - not sure how that will translate to the ski business



Need Massskier to spin this one...


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## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Need Massskier to spin this one...


I'll do it for you:

(From Masskier)
Hey guys!  I had a few hours to get away from my meeting with the Massachusetts Governor and Congressional delegation.  Just enough time to drive up to Burke to check on how things were going.  After I met with my Realtor to ask her why none of my condos are moving, I checked out the construction site.  It was a little difficult because the access road was clogged with foreign investors looking for a place to put their money.  Apparently they are already getting a rate of return - even before their money has been deposited.  That's how profitable this hotel has become!  The good news is that the construction is on schedule.  My sources tell me that the next phase will be the spreading of unicorn dust.  They had to wait until the concrete settled before doing this.  Reservations are going really well.  The hotel is now fully booked through 2038.  The new General Manager is going to be a great fit.  Apparently he sold auto parts in a state that had a ski area - so no doubt he is very familiar with the ski industry.  He also tells me that he once stayed in a hotel when he went to Cancun during college spring break, so he knows lots about the hospitality industry.  And if that wasn't enough, he sold an auto part to Bernie Madoff, so he will know what it takes to attract investors.  Great things are happening here at Burke!  I will probably have more details after I meet with the Vermont Illuminati.


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## Big Wave Dave (Aug 29, 2014)

VT Kilarney, you need to get a life. based on what i have seen on this website, his statements about the hotel development have been borne out. Your pessimism over the hotel project, has not.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2014)

burski said:


> Was up at Burke last weekend and heard that Steve from Jay has stepped down as GM - not much of a surprise considering the Q track record, food and beverage manager also gone. That's not the worst part, rumor has it that the new GM appointed by Q is a former auto parts salesman - not sure how that will translate to the ski business



:roll:


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## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> VT Kilarney, you need to get a life. based on what i have seen on this website, his statements about the hotel development have been borne out. Your pessimism over the hotel project, has not.


Apparently your life has no room for humor.  I'll keep that in mind.  In the event that you took what I had posted seriously, they didn't really spread unicorn dust and Masskier is not meeting with the Illuminati.  Perhaps I should have used a "sarcasm" alert.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 29, 2014)

burski said:


> Was up at Burke last weekend and heard that Steve from Jay has stepped down as GM - not much of a surprise considering the Q track record, food and beverage manager also gone. That's not the worst part, rumor has it that the new GM appointed by Q is a former auto parts salesman - not sure how that will translate to the ski business



This makes me wonder if Steve's stint as GM at Burke was a temporary position until they could hire a GM specifically for Burke? As we all know, even though Steve is very good at his job, trying to run two resorts at the same time is very demanding. Had this been a long term plan, both resorts would have likely suffered for it as neither would have received the undivided attention of the GM.
Who says "auto parts salesman" is the only thing on the new guy's resume?


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 29, 2014)

I guess the $64,000 question will be if half a Steve is better than the whole of who they have coming in.  I agree that it was not an ideal arrangement.  It's nice to see that Burke will have somebody who can devote all of their attention to Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2014)

Rather than getting into another pissing match over who has hurt whose feelings, I'd rather have a discussion about the future of the mountain considering the REAL issues that are going on with Stenger/Quiro's other projects and funding as well as the fact that they do not appear to have a good manager in place.  Burke is a wonderful mountain with awesome skiing and riding that is really unmatched.  It's also where I grew up.  So I'd rather have that discussion rather than another "pessimist versus optimist" tangent.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 2, 2014)

Big truck load of steel beams getting off of I-91 north in Lyndonville this morning and headed north into town on Route 5. 
Headed to Burke?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

Hopefully!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Big truck load of steel beams getting off of I-91 north in Lyndonville this morning and headed north into town on Route 5.
> Headed to Burke?



Sounds like the right timing.  I think you need to go up to investigate.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 2, 2014)

I tried to see if there was anything on the webcam but it looks like a moth or something decided to hang out on the camera this afternoon.


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## burski (Sep 2, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> This makes me wonder if Steve's stint as GM at Burke was a temporary position until they could hire a GM specifically for Burke? As we all know, even though Steve is very good at his job, trying to run two resorts at the same time is very demanding. Had this been a long term plan, both resorts would have likely suffered for it as neither would have received the undivided attention of the GM.
> Who says "auto parts salesman" is the only thing on the new guy's resume?




I really don't think they hired Steve for 2 months during the summer (slow time) just so that they would have an interim GM.  I think a much better bet would be that Steve could not work with Q like the numerous others that have now either left or been shown the door by Q.  And while there is nothing wrong with being a local parts salesman in your previous career - it has no correlation to the ski business - but who knows this rumored individual may have been the GM at Vail before they left for the lucrative parts business.  As for now, there is no official word so we will wait to see if the Mountain confirms or denies this rumor and maybe there is a impressive resume for whomever this new GM may be.  (or maybe its still Steve and he is out enjoying his summer away from these ski forums).  Either way it would be nice to hear what is going on at the ski area before I purchase my season ticket.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2014)

burski said:


> I really don't think they hired Steve for 2 months during the summer (slow time) just so that they would have an interim GM.  I think a much better bet would be that Steve could not work with Q like the numerous others that have now either left or been shown the door by Q.  And while there is nothing wrong with being a local parts salesman in your previous career - it has no correlation to the ski business - but who knows this rumored individual may have been the GM at Vail before they left for the lucrative parts business.  As for now, there is no official word so we will wait to see if the Mountain confirms or denies this rumor and maybe there is a impressive resume for whomever this new GM may be.  (or maybe its still Steve and he is out enjoying his summer away from these ski forums).  Either way it would be nice to hear what is going on at the ski area before I purchase my season ticket.



My sources confirm that there is a new GM and that he does not have any ski area experience.  He previously ran a Fastenal franchise.  

And as to what is going on: the Q Conference Center and Hotel.  That's it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

Well, perhaps Ary Jr. Wants someone who will make him look good.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2014)

Not exactly earth shattering news, but Burke has confirmed on their Facebook page that their anticipated opening date will be on the weekend of December 13th.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 4, 2014)

Did any of that steel arrive at Q-Burke?  If so, it's not in front of their webcam.


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## SkiRaceParent (Sep 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Did any of that steel arrive at Q-Burke?  If so, it's not in front of their webcam.



I have a call into Stenger to move the beams right in front of the camera for proof.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 5, 2014)

Does this mean that they did indeed arrive?  That's all I was wondering.

I'm assuming that the steel has either arrived or is about to arrive since the crane is still there.  But I'm no expert on these things.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Does this mean that they did indeed arrive?  That's all I was wondering.
> 
> I'm assuming that the steel has either arrived or is about to arrive since the crane is still there.  But I'm no expert on these things.



I see steel....


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## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2014)

Photo credit to the original trailboss.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 5, 2014)

So the crane is there for a reason!  That is VERY good news.  Keep at it boys!


----------



## Masskier (Sep 6, 2014)

I took this photo today.

Sorry it posted upside down.  Anyone know how I can turn it around?


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> My sources confirm that there is a new GM and that he does not have any ski area experience.  He previously ran a Fastenal franchise.
> 
> And as to what is going on: the Q Conference Center and Hotel.  That's it.




Seriously?!

With that resume I think any of us on this board is now automatically qualified for the position.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 6, 2014)

Word is that he will be assistant GM and Ary will be GM.  I was told he is starting next week.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Word is that he will be assistant GM and Ary will be GM.  I was told he is starting next week.



I give the guy one season at most.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Word is that he will be assistant GM and Ary will be GM.  I was told he is starting next week.



I thought Ary stepped down?

what a cluster

There are plenty of talented people in the ski industry.  Pretty boneheaded of the Q's to not hire someone with an industry background.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought Ary stepped down?
> 
> what a cluster
> 
> There are plenty of talented people in the ski industry.  Pretty boneheaded of the Q's to not hire someone with an industry background.



Unfortunately Burke has become the laughing stock of the industry. So sad. It's such a great mountain. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## halfpintvt (Sep 9, 2014)

I heard that the new GM is Frank Cuccia; anyone care to confirm?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Sep 9, 2014)

ha I think PCMR and not Burke is the real laughingstock of the industry right now. As magnitude of erros goes, Burke is not even in PCMR's league.

but point made.


----------



## burski (Sep 10, 2014)

Nice article about Vermont ski areas (http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/sept...oard-resort-capital-improvement-plans-2014-15) it appears every resort is doing something this off season except one....  This is just a small sign of the lack of attention to detail (and lack of competent staff) that the Q fiefdom continues to display...


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 10, 2014)

Jay Peak's entry was pretty clever.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2014)

burski said:


> Nice article about Vermont ski areas (http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/sept...oard-resort-capital-improvement-plans-2014-15) it appears every resort is doing something this off season except one....  This is just a small sign of the lack of attention to detail (and lack of competent staff) that the Q fiefdom continues to display...



If you actually read the article some of the ones listed haven't done anything it is just an add for them. Last time I checked Burke was building a hotel.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 10, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> If you actually read the article some of the ones listed haven't done anything it is just an add for them. Last time I checked Burke was building a hotel.


I think the OP's point was that Q-Burke could not be Q-bothered to submit anything for the article.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the OP's point was that Q-Burke could not be Q-bothered to submit anything for the article.



Exactly. You'd think that Burke would be shouting about the new hotel--especially when there's been a lot of bad PR lately with the other projects that Stenger/Q have been doing.  Hell, the frickin Hermitage Club submitted a segment!

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the OP's point was that Q-Burke could not be Q-bothered to submit anything for the article.



Ahhh my bad


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Sep 10, 2014)

50 new snow guns is something.

Jay, QBurke Swap Out Old Snow Guns



+ click to enlarge 

COURTESY PIC

Snow guns blast in early January at Jay Peak Resort.


Robin Smith
Staff Writer


MONTPELIER -- Vermont ski resorts, including those in the Northeast Kingdom, are expanding the efficiency, quality and coverage of their snowmaking systems.

The Great Snow Gun Roundup, a program between the ski resorts and Efficiency Vermont, will add more than 100 new guns at Jay Peak Resort and about 50 at Q Burke Mountain, said Bill Stenger, CEO of Jay Peak Resort and a partner in QBurke.


----------



## burski (Sep 10, 2014)

Of course 50 new snowguns is something so isn't a hotel - its after labor day - if Burke had a marketing department and a marketing budget this information would be getting out to the public - not just to the few dozen diehards who read this board during the summer....



Big Wave Dave said:


> 50 new snow guns is something.
> 
> Jay, QBurke Swap Out Old Snow Guns
> 
> ...


----------



## zeke (Sep 10, 2014)

burski said:


> - if Burke had a marketing department and a marketing budget this information would be getting out to the public -



they don't check the first job opening http://skiburke.com/jobs/

looks like the new guy left as well–looks like the Q is starting to mean quit when it comes to people at the mountain. with all the bad pr and mismanagement i wonder if skiers will be the next to quit? 

on the upside, Ary is getting new business cards
Ary Quiros
President/CEO/General Manager/Head of Food and Beverage/Interim Director of Sales and Marketing/Owner's kid


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 10, 2014)

If he has left, Andrew's Linkedin page has not been updated.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. You'd think that Burke would be shouting about the new hotel--especially when there's been a lot of bad PR lately with the other projects that Stenger/Q have been doing.  Hell, the frickin Hermitage Club submitted a segment!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Is it possible that the writer of the article didn't reach out to Burke/Jay for a summary of what they are upgrading? It is odd how the Jay piece is written and not mentioning any of the snow gun upgrades.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2014)

zeke said:


> they don't check the first job opening http://skiburke.com/jobs/
> 
> looks like the new guy left as well–looks like the Q is starting to mean quit when it comes to people at the mountain. with all the bad pr and mismanagement if skiers will be the next to quit?
> 
> ...



I added one there because I know of at least one person who has decided not to work there this year because of Q.  And this person was a Burke loyalist.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 10, 2014)

mbedle said:


> Is it possible that the writer of the article didn't reach out to Burke/Jay for a summary of what they are upgrading? It is odd how the Jay piece is written and not mentioning any of the snow gun upgrades.


This is a press release from the Ski Areas Association.  The standard procedure for this type of press release is to put out a call to member ski areas for submissions.  Whatever procedure was followed, my guess is that if Haystack was notified, Burke was notified as well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> 50 new snow guns is something.
> 
> Jay, QBurke Swap Out Old Snow Guns
> 
> ...



OK.....but getting back to the OP.  Why no word about the Hotel?  They should be shouting from the rafters!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> OK.....but getting back to the OP.  Why no word about the Hotel?  They should be shouting from the rafters!


Maybe since it is going to be more of a hindrance than an asset during the construction phase this winter? Instead of a nice white field below the lift this winter there is going to be a half naked metal sculpture surrounded by mud.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2014)

I think the whole Jay Peak statement was designed to be limited - maybe as to not to draw too much attention to the lack of EB-5 funding?  Just speculating.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 10, 2014)

dlague said:


> I think the whole Jay Peak statement was designed to be limited - maybe as to not to draw too much attention to the lack of EB-5 funding?  Just speculating.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


Are you talking about the Jay Peak statement as if Burke was intended to be a part of it?  I'm not so sure that was their intent.  
The reality is that, other than installing snow guns that won't improve the consumer's experience, not much has gone on at Jay this summer.  The outdoor theater is about it.  I'm not faulting them for that.  They've done a TON of work during the past few years and, while the work has been nearly exclusively non-ski infrastructure work, it's understandable that there would be a break in the action.  (Sarcam alert: Stenger's marketing department needed a break after all.  :-o )

It is odd, however, that Burke did not mention the hotel.  Stenger is VERY motivated to act as if the EB-5 world is just fine.  He has been quick to point out successes in response to concerns.  So this is definitely something new.  It wouldn't surprise me if it just fell through the cracks.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 11, 2014)

According to the webcam, lots of dirt has been moved around at Mid-Burke in the last couple days.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> According to the webcam, lots of dirt has been moved around at Mid-Burke in the last couple days.



Couple excavators & an off-road dump going right at it, right now. When you going up for a photo shoot?


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 12, 2014)

big news today on the newport airport runway. I feel like this element of the Q world has really gone under the radar. If this plane manufacturer delivers as advertized, Mr. Quiros has done the NEK a great service in regards to good paying skilled mechanical work.

I will await developments as my trust factor is low, but its nice to see news like this in light of all the last years turmoil at Burke and Jay.

BTW, about time they stopped building at Jay! I was just up there the other day after having watched this develop over the years I still cant believe what they have done. I remember when Jay had tree's all the way to the summit ! my how that place has changed. As long as mid-week stays quiet i wont b*tch.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> big news today on the newport airport runway. I feel like this element of the Q world has really gone under the radar. If this plane manufacturer delivers as advertized, Mr. Quiros has done the NEK a great service in regards to good paying skilled mechanical work.
> 
> I will await developments as my trust factor is low, but its nice to see news like this in light of all the last years turmoil at Burke and Jay.
> 
> BTW, about time they stopped building at Jay! I was just up there the other day after having watched this develop over the years I still cant believe what they have done. I remember when Jay had tree's all the way to the summit ! my how that place has changed. As long as mid-week stays quiet i wont b*tch.



The money for the runway is good.  It's too bad that the plans to expand/improve the Lyndon Airport never happened....though some may disagree.


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## Masskier (Sep 12, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> big news today on the newport airport runway. I feel like this element of the Q world has really gone under the radar. If this plane manufacturer delivers as advertized, Mr. Quiros has done the NEK a great service in regards to good paying skilled mechanical work.
> 
> I will await developments as my trust factor is low, but its nice to see news like this in light of all the last years turmoil at Burke and Jay.
> 
> BTW, about time they stopped building at Jay! I was just up there the other day after having watched this develop over the years I still cant believe what they have done. I remember when Jay had tree's all the way to the summit ! my how that place has changed. As long as mid-week stays quiet i wont b*tch.




No question,  The airport is a critical piece of the whole NEK economical development plan.  Here are some comments from the Cal Record article.

 [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"This is a vital piece to our economic development of not only Newport but the surrounding area," Monette said.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]The foreign trade zone designation also really helped, Marcotte said.


 "I look forward to seeing some good jobs come into Coventry," he added.


 "This is indeed good news, said David Snedeker, executive director of Northeastern Vermont Development Association.
 "The runway extension and improvements at the Newport State Airport  will greatly enhance current and future developments in the NEK region.  We are pleased that the FAA recognized this and thank everyone at the  federal, state, and local levels who helped to make this possible."
[/FONT]


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> It's too bad that the plans to expand/improve the Lyndon Airport never happened....though some may disagree.



Raising my hand.

The terrain around the Caledonia County State Airport does not lend itself well to expansion. The longest runway they could put up there is 4500' and that would require A LOT of blasting, re-routing of roads, and buyouts of surrounding farmers.

The "improvements" that were going to be made included a rotating beacon light. That thing would have been visible from nearly everywhere in the upper Passumpsic River basin. I saw the tests and it wasn't pretty. Pudding Hill sits smack in the middle of the basin and there is nothing to stop the light from flashing all over the place. Sitting on Darling Hill watching the sunset with a bright light blinking in your eyes every 5-10 seconds sounds like a great tourist attraction :-?.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Raising my hand.
> 
> The terrain around the Caledonia County State Airport does not lend itself well to expansion. The longest runway they could put up there is 4500' and that would require A LOT of blasting, re-routing of roads, and buyouts of surrounding farmers.
> 
> The "improvements" that were going to be made included a rotating beacon light. That thing would have been visible from nearly everywhere in the upper Passumpsic River basin. I saw the tests and it wasn't pretty. Pudding Hill sits smack in the middle of the basin and there is nothing to stop the light from flashing all over the place. Sitting on Darling Hill watching the sunset with a bright light blinking in your eyes every 5-10 seconds sounds like a great tourist attraction :-?.



But are those wind turbines with beacons on them any better?


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> But are those wind turbines with beacons on them any better?



I wouldn't say they are better but they are not nearly as bright. The red lights don't add much light pollution to the sky other than single points of light.
The rotating beacon is a powerful concentrated beam that you can see rotate through the air even if you can't actually see the light bulb.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 12, 2014)

The Newport airport grant is independent from Stenger and Quiros.  The grant is a federal grant that was applied for by the state's aviation program administrator.  Nonetheless, it is good news and it is good for Stenger and Quiros' plans - and it would not surprise me if they assisted in getting the grant.

I definitely agree that the airport land in Coventry is much better suited for expansion than Lyndon.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Newport airport grant is independent from Stenger and Quiros.  The grant is a federal grant that was applied for by the state's aviation program administrator.  Nonetheless, it is good news and it is good for Stenger and Quiros' plans - and it would not surprise me if they assisted in getting the grant.
> 
> I definitely agree that the airport land in Coventry is much better suited for expansion than Lyndon.



I understand that on paper it is independent, but I think it is connected to what Stenger/Q want to do.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I understand that on paper it is independent, but I think it is connected to what Stenger/Q want to do.


I agree.  Oddly enough, I was looking for information on the Flight Design factory in Coventry.  As best as I can figure out, there is a dealer in Connecticut that sells the planes, but Quiros has the right to start a manufacturing branch for the planes in the USA.  I couldn't find anything at all except for the original articles from a couple of years ago, so I don't know what the status is.  

The plane that they are going to manufacture is a REALLY nice plane in the Light Sport Aircraft category.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree.  Oddly enough, I was looking for information on the Flight Design factory in Coventry.  As best as I can figure out, there is a dealer in Connecticut that sells the planes, but Quiros has the right to start a manufacturing branch for the planes in the USA.  I couldn't find anything at all except for the original articles from a couple of years ago, so I don't know what the status is.
> 
> The plane that they are going to manufacture is a REALLY nice plane in the Light Sport Aircraft category.



Dumb question: is the aviation industry doing that well? And is this a recreational plane as opposed to a commercial plane? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Sep 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Dumb question: is the aviation industry doing that well? And is this a recreational plane as opposed to a commercial plane?


It's a very recreational plane.  Slow and stable.  The industry is littered with losers.  It's a EXTREMELY risky place to invest.  But... there are TONS of old planes out there since nothing sold in the 80's and 90's.  So eventually the demand will be there when the used planes become too used.  (Planes can last a surprisingly long time, so we aren't quite there yet - but we are close.)

The Light Sport Aircraft segment of the market was supposed to lead to affordable planes, but it never really panned out.  The base price of the plane that Quiros will manufacture is $144,000.  And nobody gets away with just the base price.  When the FAA changed their rules to create the Light Sport Aircraft segment, they didn't envision that the planes would cost nearly that much.  On the other hand, a Cessna 172 is $300,000 or thereabouts.  

I suppose it's possible that Quiros will merely be a sub-contractor to manufacture the plane in the USA and will not have nearly the risk of the parent company.  I am not sure how that is going to be set up.  Manufacturing here is important since these planes don't cross the Atlantic easily at all.  I doubt they can be modified to fly across and even if they could it's a massively expensive undertaking.

Light Sport Aircraft have to be under a (light) weight and cannot travel at more than 138 mph in level flight.  They can only have two seats.


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## zeke (Sep 14, 2014)

No need to be a sub-contractor when daddy has deep pockets

http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/20/quiros-buys-light-plane-manufacturer/


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## LONGBOARDR (Sep 14, 2014)

zeke said:


> No need to be a sub-contractor when daddy has deep pockets
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2013/12/20/quiros-buys-light-plane-manufacturer/
> 
> ...



They look to be awesome planes with a incredible avionics package. I understand that the powerplant (rotax) is now available as FAA certified.  I used to fly an early version of the 912 in a Pulsar. Great engine for a composite aircraft.  Right now the planes  are designed in Germany and built in Ukraine.  I believe that there is only minor assembly in the US.  Likely wings  props, landing gear. Good luck to them, as mentioned previously the plane business is pretty tough unless your name is Boeing.


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## mister moose (Sep 14, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The "improvements" that were going to be made included a rotating beacon light. That thing would have been visible from nearly everywhere in the upper Passumpsic River basin. I saw the tests and it wasn't pretty. Pudding Hill sits smack in the middle of the basin and there is nothing to stop the light from flashing all over the place. Sitting on Darling Hill watching the sunset with a bright light blinking in your eyes every 5-10 seconds sounds like a great tourist attraction :-?.



This has got to be one of the most over stated objections I have seen in a while.  Airport rotating beacons are the same as lighthouses.  They are bright enough to see if you look right at them (and wait for the blink) but that's it.  I have never heard anyone who lives on the coast say "AUGGGHHH MY EYES!   I just looked at a lighthouse 3 miles away!!!"

Also, an aviation beacon shines up, at around 4 degrees.  The bright spot is meant for airplanes, not people or homes.  The amount of light pollution in my experience is less than surrounding car dealer lots or street lights, and most people don't have direct sight lines to the beacon .


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## Masskier (Sep 14, 2014)

[h=3]Orleans County Leads State in Job Creation for First Time in Vermont History[/h]
http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/a5da17a5-68f1-4b4b-8122-1197d68734cd


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## machski (Sep 14, 2014)

The Rotax 912 has been an FAA certified engine since the late 90's, one of its first certified applications was in the Diamond DA-20 Katana.  I would have to say Newport has the better expansion ability.  Lyndonville sits on a hill with rolling terrain off the field in all directions.  Hope it works out, they need to target a runway extension to at least 5500' to be viable for most jet traffic, 6000' preferred min for winter runway ops.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Masskier said:


> *Orleans County Leads State in Job Creation for First Time in Vermont History*
> 
> 
> http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/a5da17a5-68f1-4b4b-8122-1197d68734cd




The real questions of "what kind of jobs ?" and "what do they pay ?" are not answered here...................


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## VTKilarney (Sep 15, 2014)

I can answer at least one question regarding the type of jobs.  The press release (note: this was not an article) says this:
_“Seven or eight years ago, we had approximately 250 people or so working at Jay Peak. Today that number’s over 1,500." _

Stenger previously stated that "more than" 250 employees receive benefits and, during the summer, there are "400+" employees working at Jay.  So probably slightly under 1,250 of those 1,500 jobs are part-time with no benefits.  Of the 1,500+ total jobs, slightly less than 850 appear to be winter-only.

I'm not saying that this is worse than before EB-5, but hopefully this puts things into context.  It would be really great to see more summer infrastructure so some of the winter-only employees can find work during the summer.  The lake is a under-tapped attraction that could lead to a boost in summer employment if developed properly.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 15, 2014)




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## from_the_NEK (Sep 15, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


>



Probably a GREAT view from the summit this morning.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 15, 2014)

mister moose said:


> This has got to be one of the most over stated objections I have seen in a while.  Airport rotating beacons are the same as lighthouses.  They are bright enough to see if you look right at them (and wait for the blink) but that's it.  I have never heard anyone who lives on the coast say "AUGGGHHH MY EYES!   I just looked at a lighthouse 3 miles away!!!"
> 
> Also, an aviation beacon shines up, at around 4 degrees.  The bright spot is meant for airplanes, not people or homes.  The amount of light pollution in my experience is less than surrounding car dealer lots or street lights, and most people don't have direct sight lines to the beacon .



Comparing it to lighthouses is silly. Even though they are generally the same thing (navigational aids), virtually all light houses have been in their current location for at least 100 years and are on coastlines that also have a lot of other lights along the shore. A lot of lighthouses have even been turned off as they are no longer necessary. 

On the flip side, in a rural area of NE VT that has relatively few lights, especially a "beacon shines up", some of us like the fact that there isn't a big rotating light zipping around the basin every few seconds. The location of the airport on a low ridge in the middle of the Passumpsic River basin makes it extremely visible. A temporary beacon was brought in to demo the light to the community. Prior to the demo there were quite a few people that were for expansion at the airport, including myself. But seeing the way the light really messed up the nighttime sky in the area, turned me against it.

The point is the Caledonia airport is small and would be very difficult to expand. The proposal of adding a big unattractive rotating beacon that would be *on all night* and only benefit a VERY small number of flight was ultimately shot down. Many were in favor of a pilot activated light. However, the FAA would not allow it.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Masskier said:


> [h=3]Orleans County Leads State in Job Creation for First Time in Vermont History[/h]
> http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/a5da17a5-68f1-4b4b-8122-1197d68734cd



Too bad that Burke is in Caledonia County.


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## Masskier (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Too bad that Burke is in Caledonia County.



Why is it bad that Burke is in Caledonia County?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Why is it bad that Burke is in Caledonia County?



The article that you cite is regarding *Orleans County.*  Burke is not in Orleans County.  So this article really does not have anything to do with Burke.


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The article that you cite is regarding *Orleans County.*  Burke is not in Orleans County.  So this article really does not have anything to do with Burke.



sure it does. Any news on job creation in the NEK benefits the whole NEK. I live in Orleans County but shop (and ski,drink, eat pizza, etc) in Caledonia. More people with more income in Orleans directly benefits Caledonia. Last time I checked no Iron Curtain on Route 5


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 15, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Last time I checked no Iron Curtain on Route 5



There is, on I-91. 
North of Sheffield Heights, all of the radio stations are in French! Totally different world on that side of the hill. :razz:


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## Masskier (Sep 15, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The article that you cite is regarding *Orleans County.*  Burke is not in Orleans County.  So this article really does not have anything to do with Burke.



It has a lot to do with Burke.  There has been lots of discussion in this thread on the EB 5 economic initiative in the NEK.  For the first time in the history of the state, Orleans County led in job creation.  And this is being fueled by the EB 5 program.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2014)

Masskier said:


> It has a lot to do with Burke.  There has been lots of discussion in this thread on the EB 5 economic initiative in the NEK.  For the first time in the history of the state, Orleans County led in job creation.  And this is being fueled by the EB 5 program.



Burke, again, is not in that county.  So the news in that county is not really relevant nor connected.  I suppose you're trying to make the argument that all's well because of this news.  

That seems inconsistent using the logic that you and others used a few months ago when folks were discussing the problems with those other projects (the other EB-5 projects don't matter to Burke).  I don't dispute this news item that came out a few weeks ago, but I think it's either got to be that we look at the entire initiative for the good and the bad or we don't.  When looking at Stenger's projects as a whole initiative, it's not fair or honest to ignore the problems but cheer for the good things that come from the other projects.  Just calling it as I see it.

And I also have changed my POV regarding this job creation.  I think it's a fair question that TOTB raised: what kinds of jobs are being created?


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## oldtimer (Sep 16, 2014)

In order to bring this conversation back to this winter's product.

1) GM:  effectively still Q.
2) Head of ski school:  Rob was sacked within the last week.  As I understand it, there was no reason given.  He was making strides to improving what has been a very mixed product.  Now back to ground zero.

and the beat goes on.  Who would want continuity?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

Given that there is no manufacturing activity at the airport in Conventry, it does not surprise me that Q is still the effective GM at Burke.  This is consistent with what my inside source has told me.  

When I look at Burke today - and compare it to a year ago - things are not better.  The hotel is an extremely positive development, but that's about all that has been positive.  You can really sense that Q-Burke is now an island.  Prior to Ary Jr. Burke Mountain felt VERY ingrained within the East Burke community.  The citizens felt invested in the the mountain, whereas now it feels like "that place up the road."  

I've said time and time again that the prior business model was not viable.  So I respect that changes needed to be made.  I'm not at all convinced, however, that building a moat around the mountain was the right idea.

I bought passes for this year - so I still have faith that things will run well enough.  But for me it's year to year.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> 1) GM:  effectively still Q.
> 2) Head of ski school:  Rob was sacked within the last week.


Any word on whether or not Andrew is still their marketing director?


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## Masskier (Sep 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Any word on whether or not Andrew is still their marketing director?



Andrew been gone for a while.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Andrew been gone for a while.


I wonder why his LinkedIn profile has not been updated.  I'm inferring from this that his departure was not by his choice.  Who is the new marketing director?


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## zeke (Sep 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Who is the new marketing director?



sorry to repost from earlier but the business card just keeps on growing . . .

Ary Quiros
President
CEO
General Manager
Head of Food and Beverage
Interim Director of Sales and Marketing
Director of ski school
Owner's kid

the one-man band of the ski industry plays on


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## Masskier (Sep 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I wonder why his LinkedIn profile has not been updated.  I'm inferring from this that his departure was not by his choice.  Who is the new marketing director?



It was his choice.  My understanding is that He and his wife had a great opportunity in New Jersy.


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## Masskier (Sep 16, 2014)

Mark Castro, is the new F&B Director!


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

Mark Castro from Jay Peak?


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## Masskier (Sep 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Mark Castro from Jay Peak?



Yes,  do you know him?    He is one heck of a chef.    He is the new F+B director and will also set up the restaurant in the new Hotel.


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## oldtimer (Sep 16, 2014)

Is he working at both Jay Peak and Burke this winter?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> Is he working at both Jay Peak and Burke this winter?


(sound of crickets chirping )


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> Is he working at both Jay Peak and Burke this winter?



Well, if Steve is any indication as to how things will work, I predict that he will work at both for a short time before deciding to stay at JPR.

It is so frustrating....Jay has some amazing talent and is recognized as an industry leader and yet Q just does not want to even consider using any of these resources.


----------



## oldtimer (Sep 16, 2014)

ouch.



thetrailboss said:


> Well, if Steve is any indication as to how things will work, I predict that he will work at both for a short time before deciding to stay at JPR.
> 
> It is so frustrating....Jay has some amazing talent and is recognized as an industry leader and yet Q just does not want to even consider using any of these resources.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> ouch.



Ouch?  Maybe.  It is more of a  for me.  But Steve only did the "joint" thing for a short time before they hired the new GM that has been mentioned here.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2014)

So did Masskier really try to get us excited at Burke now being treated as an outpost for food and beverage management?  WTF.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 18, 2014)

Lots of steel up now.
Additionally, it looks like the Mid-Burke parking lot is gone. In its place is a graded slope (hydroseeded) down to the lift.


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## Slow (Sep 19, 2014)

So, I am the anecdote: "Q Burke" is not the "Burke" the world is looking for.

Last year was our first year doing a season long commitment to one mountain. At the outset I knew I wanted a manageable sized mountain, unlimited challenging terrain and, a strong connection to the local community (we are NOT a Disney World family). After bouncing around for a couple of seasons with weekend trips to pick a "home" mountain and get the kids in a program, we were torn between Burke or MRG.

I picked Burke, and my wife and I (with our two kids) rented a house and talked a friend (with his two kids into joining us). Last winter we bought seasons passes, put our kids in the season long program, never missed a weeekend, and bought more meals and beers on the mountain than we ever intended to. We also brought a number fo friends up to stay with us so they could understand how great a mountain it is (was) and we could try to recruit them to the area and show them 3.5 from Boston is not "that" bad.

We picked Burke because it was the larger of the two, had snow making, the high speed quad, a great connection to the local community and, in our experience, had a great ski school (along with...in a pipedream world...seeming like a nice place to head up for the mountain biking during the summer). And, I liked the idea the mountain was recently purchased by people who were saying they wanted to invest in the mountain, get more beds in the area, and build it out while not changing the vibe.

Over the course of last winter:
- It was definitely a larger and had FANTASTIC terrain, BUT
- While the snow making saved one weekend over MRG it did not extend the season
- The ski school was kicked off the top of the mountain (where the snow making stuck) during the "saved" days
- The ski school was CONSTANTLY in turmoil (they fired the head of the school 2 weeks in...and she was WONDERFUL).
- You never knew week to week which instructor was going to show up
- It took 3-4 weeks to try to get the classes sorted out and, only the, when I pushed...and they still constantly worked to keep the kids off the top of the mountain
- The lunch line was REDICULOUS...but by the end of the season the beers in the Tamarac were still cold and they had the menu sorted back out (after a VERY rough start)
- They fired half (or more) of the local staff
- (at least from my perspective) they destroyed their relationship with the local community
- Never got the cross-coutry ski center open (my wife is CC) only
- And, severed the relationship with the MTB community (my wife did convert from CC to snowbiking)

Now I hear they have another new head of food service, head of ski school and the son is still running the mountain opps. I am not signing up for ANOTHER year of "learning/training"

This is all a long way to say our expereince was:
Step #1: Give Q-Burke a try,
Step #2: Decide Q-Burke is not headed in the right direction,
Step #3: Just rented the house, bought the season passes, and enrolled in the full weekend program at MRG
Step #4: Never look back

One question...is there any snowbike community in the Mad River Valley?  Snow biking is a BLAST!!


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 19, 2014)

Uggh.... that just makes me feel sick to my stomach. :-(


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## VTKilarney (Sep 19, 2014)

Slow's post made me realize something.  You can have as many new hotels as you want, but unless OPERATIONS improve the mountain will not attract skiers.  So long as Q-Jr. is at the helm, I am not optimistic for significant operational improvement.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

BTW, thanks for sharing your thoughts.  It's important for people who care about the mountain to hear what actual consumers are thinking.  It sounds to me that if management was doing their job, you would likely have been a Burke skier for many more years to come.  Burke can't afford to lose that type of customer.


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## mister moose (Sep 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Slow's post made me realize something. You can have as many new hotels as you want, but unless OPERATIONS improve the mountain will not attract skiers.



Glitz is not a substitue for competence.  That's why Smuggs wins awards and does fine with one of the oldest lift infrastructures in New England.  Sure, you need new stuff when the old wears out.  And there's always folks who want to travel to ride the newest lift, ski the newest trail (Sundown) or eat in the newest lodge.  But at the end of that day with the new shiny girfriend, you don't return for the glitz, you return for the fun you had.  Competence counts.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

Slow said:


> So, I am the anecdote: "Q Burke" is not the "Burke" the world is looking for.
> 
> Last year was our first year doing a season long commitment to one mountain. At the outset I knew I wanted a manageable sized mountain, unlimited challenging terrain and, a strong connection to the local community (we are NOT a Disney World family). After bouncing around for a couple of seasons with weekend trips to pick a "home" mountain and get the kids in a program, we were torn between Burke or MRG.
> 
> ...



Agree with FTN.....it makes me sick.  Sorry to hear about the experience.  Unfortunately your feedback will only convince others to stay away without the benefit of changing how things are going up there.  I'd say that our year's worth of vocal constructive criticism is probably falling on deaf ears.  In fact, I think I can confidently say that Q does not care about us at all and is emboldened to continue on his path to, um, I don't know where.  

Last year when he emerged I watched the interviews and read his comments.  It seemed pretty obvious to me that there was a facade over a guy who had no idea what he was doing.  His incredible rude post on that Mountain Bike forum was just absurd.  There's no spinning that.    

Your comments confirm a lot of what I had heard about how things were going.  Add the fact that snowmaking was terrible from what I heard because they had let go of some of their staff and key folks who knew what to do.  From what I had heard they made more ice than snow.  And their promise of a longer season with an earlier opening never happened.  

You'll love MRG.  Since it is cooperatively owned, they are really committed to making their skiers happy.  Be sure to go over to Sugarbush.  That is another ski area that is near and dear to my heart.  Win and company have overall done a great job.  Win is the complete opposite of Q--he listens to his customers and is very good with making folks feel welcome and valued.  

The only thing I can conclude from the Q attitude is that they are building it up to flip it.  They don't have any idea how to run a resort, let alone a ski area.  I think they thought it would be easy--just copy what Stenger does at Jay.  And I think they thought that they could invest EB-5 money to improve it and then sell it to another owner for a big profit.   If they were in it for the long haul, Dad would have told Jr. to go do something else.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Sep 19, 2014)

super depressing to read that post, I wish you would send it directly to Q.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> super depressing to read that post, I wish you would send it directly to Q.



I agree, but only for morbid curiosity.  For any other resort, I'd say absolutely contact them directly because they would appreciate the feedback.  But considering the *unequivocally harsh response* that others have gotten would make me think twice about writing them directly.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

For those that want to see what things looked like last week, here's a story from the LSC news folks:

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/891-q-burke-hotel-shaping-up


----------



## halfpintvt (Sep 19, 2014)

Taken Sept. 18th


----------



## halfpintvt (Sep 19, 2014)

Sorry for the double photo post; not sure why that happened. As you can see the Hotel is coming along. Not sure there will be any guests if "Q" continues on his present course. Time will tell


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2014)

So is the hotel going to be the day lodge as well at Midburke? Why do ski areas keep putting the lodges so far below the lifts. Call me lazy but I would much rather have the lodge where the old lodge was or in the parking lot. They did the same crap at Jay as well and lots of other ski areas. Make lodges SKI OUT please!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> So is the hotel going to be the day lodge as well at Midburke? Why do ski areas keep putting the lodges so far below the lifts. Call me lazy but I would much rather have the lodge where the old lodge was or in the parking lot. They did the same crap at Jay as well and lots of other ski areas. Make lodges SKI OUT please!!!



From what I understand it will be the middle portion of the building in between the two wings that will serve as the "new" Mid-Burke lodge.  As to where the Bear Den Lounge will be.......?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> From what I understand it will be the middle portion of the building in between the two wings that will serve as the "new" Mid-Burke lodge.  As to where the Bear Den Lounge will be.......?



Right then you'll have to walk up hill to get to the lift...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Right then you'll have to walk up hill to get to the lift...



Yeah, it will be like Stateside at Jay I imagine.  I agree with you.  Maybe they will install a Maqic Qarpet to move people up to the Mid-QBurke Eqpress.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, it will be like Stateside at Jay I imagine.  I agree with you.  Maybe they will install a Maqic Qarpet to move people up to the Mid-QBurke Eqpress.



More like Tram House Lodge to Green Mountain Flyer. About 50 yards with 15-20' of climbing (Stowe's Forerunner Quad is 150 yards away from the lodge).

Where the Mid Lodge is currently located does not work well with the new lift setup. It causes a traffic bottleneck trying to get to the lift coming off the Dippers. Additionally, there isn't much room on that part of the mountain to build a structure as large as the one they are building. There are a lot of small streams around there and trying to get permits to disturb waterways is damn near impossible in VT.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 19, 2014)

Sweet pics HalfPint. I need to get up there myself. Maybe this weekend. Sucks that all Mid-Burke parking looks like it is going to be in the lots on the other side of the trees.


----------



## Zand (Sep 19, 2014)

I don't mind a short uphill walk as long as it isn't a Mansfield Lodge to Fourrunner Quad type climb. I don't think the climb from Tramhaus is bad so hopefully this will be similar (although I am guilty of only hiking to the magic carpet and using that to get speed to the Freezer haha).


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

You should try walking up to the lodge at Mt. Ellen from one of the lower parking lots.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> You should try walking up to the lodge at Mt. Ellen from one of the lower parking lots.



+1. That's quite a warmup for the day.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## oldtimer (Sep 23, 2014)

*New grading at MBE lift base*

From the grading and hydroseeding that has been done where the old mid-Burke parking lot was, it appears to me like they are now planning to load the lift from the skiers right.  BUT, no one got the memo that sometimes (yes, rarely) there is indeed a lift line.  There is no flat zone in the lift approach area.  That is, when they need a corral it will be on the sloped terrain with the line flow pitched significantly right down to the loading ramp.  Are there any, any, folks in this crew with an ounce of experience?  See the webcam-  this is going to be unpleasant if it stays as it is and they do indeed load on that side.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 23, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> From the grading and hydroseeding that has been done where the old mid-Burke parking lot was, it appears to me like they are now planning to load the lift from the skiers right.  BUT, no one got the memo that sometimes (yes, rarely) there is indeed a lift line.  There is no flat zone in the lift approach area.  That is, when they need a corral it will be on the sloped terrain with the line flow pitched significantly right down to the loading ramp.  Are there any, any, folks in this crew with an ounce of experience?  See the webcam-  this is going to be unpleasant if it stays as it is and they do indeed load on that side.



Just looking at the historical setup, didn't they load on the left side (looking down hill)? If they did, I don't see why they would stitch to loading on the right.


----------



## oldtimer (Sep 23, 2014)

the way the grading is now, on the skier's left there is a big drop off now due to the way they have done the grading.  Perhaps they are not doen, but when you are standing above the lift base it is very, very clear that if the season started tomorrow there intention is to load from the other side.  looks like the Skiers right side might ultimately be intended for uphill traffic from the hotel.


----------



## oldtimer (Sep 23, 2014)

I may have spoken too soon-  seems there is a bulldozer over there on skier's left.





oldtimer said:


> the way the grading is now, on the skier's left there is a big drop off now due to the way they have done the grading.  Perhaps they are not doen, but when you are standing above the lift base it is very, very clear that if the season started tomorrow there intention is to load from the other side.  looks like the Skiers right side might ultimately be intended for uphill traffic from the hotel.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Sep 23, 2014)

This thread is starting to remind me of a thread I saw when I first joined AZ

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/10825-24-Hour-African-Waterhole-action-(Awesome)


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> This thread is starting to remind me of a thread I saw when I first joined AZ
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/10825-24-Hour-African-Waterhole-action-(Awesome)



How so?

The play-by-play aspect?  I don't remember that thread at all.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Sep 23, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> How so?
> 
> The play-by-play aspect?  I don't remember that thread at all.



I see a bulldozer! That pile of dirt moved!

Yes the play by play aspect lol


----------



## skiNEwhere (Sep 23, 2014)

Now if we some lions, that would make things realllll interesting


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Now if we some lions, that would make things realllll interesting



I think all of us would prefer a lion to what is currently there for management.....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 23, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Now if we some lions, that would make things realllll interesting



There are rumors that a Mountain Lion live on the SW side of the mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2014)

This mountain lion by chance?  

I never got that marketing idea.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2014)

Will loading the lift from the right side (looking down the mountain) work for people coming from the Sherburne Express?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Will loading the lift from the right side (looking down the mountain) work for people coming from the Sherburne Express?



I think that is what the bulldozer was doing yesterday. Grading the path that crosses under the lift line from the Sherburne side for a right side load.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2014)

According to FB, free chairlift rides for foot passengers the next three weekends at Burke.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 26, 2014)

Beautiful undercast this morning. From the webcam:


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 26, 2014)

Are they making a pond on the right hand side of that picture?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Are they making a pond on the right hand side of that picture?



That is the road/driveway to the hotel. Looks like it has a pretty substantial crushed rock lined drainage ditch between it and the lift.


----------



## Masskier (Sep 30, 2014)

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Q Burke Hotel Construction Ahead of Schedule

from Saturday's Cal Record

"[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"It's  going better than anticipated and is about two weeks ahead of  schedule," he said. Seventy-five percent of the steel installation is  done, and in two to three weeks the wood construction will begin."[/FONT]
[/FONT]


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 3, 2014)




----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 3, 2014)

What a gorgeous day:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What a gorgeous day:
> 
> View attachment 13851



Looks like it.


----------



## Boardguy (Oct 4, 2014)

From the picture it appears that the line will be on more level ground on that side. The left side kind of sucked when the mountain was crowded as the line was on a downhill pitch. Now they just need to tweak the offloading area at the top, that could use some more room too.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 8, 2014)

Does Burke Mountain no longer have a website?


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2014)

http://www.skiburke.com

Works for me.  You had me worried that JR took over IT as well.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 8, 2014)

When I go to skiburke.com I land on idealwebhost.com

SkiBurke.com domain for sale here : http://www.idealwebhost.com/

Below is the current list of domains up for sale. To bid on any of the listed domains, please submit an email to altkmedia@gmail.com, don't forget to include the domain you are interested in and contact information. Please check back often for additional offers.




Domain
Offer
Status
SkiBurke.com Bid
$750
open
UltraPlanes.com Bid
$50
open
VermontEstates.com Bid
$100
open
NEKRental.com Bid
$100
open
TamarackGrill.com Bid
$100
open
TamarackGrill.biz Bid
$100
open
BestWayHomes.com Bid
$200
open
SteelCityTool.com Bid
$200
open
Lunar13.com Bid
$100
open
WackyFarm.com Bid
$75
open
VermontHost.com Bid
$400
open
KingdomMedia.com Bid
$700
open


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> http://www.skiburke.com
> 
> Works for me.  You had me worried that JR took over IT as well.



I'm not seeing a website.  I'm seeing this:

http://www.idealwebhost.com/

Looks like Burke's site is for sale   If we raise $750 it is ours.  :


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2014)

Weird.  It works on my iPad but not on my desktop computer.  I wonder if my iPad was using a cached version.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not seeing a website. I'm seeing this:
> 
> http://www.idealwebhost.com/
> 
> Looks like Burke's site is for sale  If we raise $750 it is ours. :



Burke is probably relaunching the web site with something related to "Q Burke" to further alienate and confuse people.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2014)

I'm waiting to see how Masskier spins this into a positive.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2014)

The Tamarack's URL's are for sale as well!


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## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2014)

Burke just sent out a promotional email at around 3:00 PM.  I clicked on the links in the email and each time I got a 404 error.  Great timing.  I guess JR might have taken over IT after all.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke just sent out a promotional email at around 3:00 PM.  I clicked on the links in the email and each time I got a 404 error.  Great timing.  I guess JR might have taken over IT after all.



Pure amateur hour.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2014)

Their season pass prices go up on October 13th.  The timing for this is pretty bad.


----------



## Edd (Oct 9, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Burke is probably relaunching the web site with something related to "Q Burke" to further alienate and confuse people.



Seriously, because the response to the name change was overwhelmingly positive. There must be LSD in the water up there if that's what this is about.


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## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2014)

Anybody find the new one yet? Or does anybody even care?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2014)

http://www.skiburke.com/


Website is back up.  I"m surprised they didn't mention on Facebook yesterday that the site was down.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.skiburke.com/
> 
> 
> Website is back up.  I"m surprised they didn't mention on Facebook yesterday that the site was down.



Why draw attention to it?


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2014)

It's a courtesy to those who use the site.  Communication.  

For instance, when this website here is having problems, an announcement is made on Facebook.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

I see that they have posted their lift ticket rates for this winter.  One thing that is concerning is that the "Specials and Deals" section says, "Coming soon!"  I wonder if the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket is going the way of the dinosaur - at least in its current form.  I was surprised that it was offered to everyone, and not just locals.  People who were up there anyway could have a leisurely breakfast and ski for cheap starting at noon.  Given the lack of crowds you could still get plenty of runs in and be back in Boston by 8:00 PM.  I have a feeling some money was left on the table since those folks would have likely purchased a day ticket if the cheaper option was not available.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that they have posted their lift ticket rates for this winter.  One thing that is concerning is that the "Specials and Deals" section says, "Coming soon!"  I wonder if the cheap Sunday afternoon ticket is going the way of the dinosaur - at least in its current form.  I was surprised that it was offered to everyone, and not just locals.  People who were up there anyway could have a leisurely breakfast and ski for cheap starting at noon.  Given the lack of crowds you could still get plenty of runs in and be back in Boston by 8:00 PM.  I have a feeling some money was left on the table since those folks would have likely purchased a day ticket if the cheaper option was not available.



I thought the Sunday afternoon ticket was just for the NEK and NH's Grafton county and maybe Coos county


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

I thought that too, but apparently it changed.  I definitely saw it offered to non-locals last year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that too, but apparently it changed.  I definitely saw it offered to non-locals last year.



That's pretty much been what they've done for a while now.  Used to be Kingdom Afternoons or something like that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2014)

Heard some additional news about the mountain.  The "new" onsite manager has no experience with ski areas.  Burke lost its food and bev manager from what I understand and the "new" manager's wife is going to take care of food and bev.  She apparently has no experience in that area either.  

This is going to be a fun season.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Heard some additional news about the mountain.  The "new" onsite manager has no experience with ski areas.  Burke lost its food and bev manager from what I understand and the "new" manager's wife is going to take care of food and bev.  She apparently has no experience in that area either.
> 
> This is going to be a fun season.


What's weird is that they have not even publicly announced the new manager, even though he has been there for at least a couple of weeks.

In regard to the food and beverage, this is unbelievable.  I just hope that the Tamarack has a good manager.  It's not as if Burke just serves chili and hot dogs.  They've got a bona fide restaurant to run.  

The other concern is that if one of them has a falling out with Jr they are both likely to leave.  

Is there a Marketing Director on board yet?


----------



## Quietman (Oct 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a courtesy to those who use the site.  Communication.
> 
> For instance, when this website here is having problems, an announcement is made on Facebook.



This was posted on Facebook in response to a users complaint.

_Burke Mountain Resort: Yes you are correct. We are going through some maintenance and will have it up tomorrow. Again, our apologies for the inconvenience. Our new website will be easier to navigate. Release date TBD.
13 hours ago_


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

Fastenal had a recent opening for a general manager in Lyndonville:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...B08D2F7EA9DF9/job/+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

That certainly suggests that the rumors are true.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

From Linked:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/debbie-cuccia/47/b2b/693


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2014)

So the site is still not live for me.  But I see that "SkiBurke.com" is no longer listed on the "For Sale" list.  

Bummer.  I was looking forward to buying it and settin up a redirect to Cannon's site


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2014)

Weird.  It worked earlier in the day for me at work - but at home I am being redirected to the "For Sale" list.


----------



## Masskier (Oct 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What's weird is that they have not even publicly announced the new manager, even though he has been there for at least a couple of weeks.
> 
> In regard to the food and beverage, this is unbelievable.  I just hope that the Tamarack has a good manager.  It's not as if Burke just serves chili and hot dogs.  They've got a bona fide restaurant to run.
> 
> ...



OK time to do some cheerleading.

As far as the Tamarack is concern, I posted a few weeks back that Mark Castro from Jay was the new F+B manager.  He certainly didn't leave, I was talking to him last night.  He also brought Zach with him from Jay and the two of them have made some nice improvements.  Lots of great specials.  Highly recommend the prime rib on Friday's nights.  And Deb (the GM's wife) has worked at Burke for quite a while (years).


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 11, 2014)

What is Deb's role?  What do you mean by a "few years"?  I thought Jr. cleaned house.  

And is there a marketing director?

I'm glad that the Tamarack is doing well, but that's the tail wagging the dog.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 12, 2014)

Even thought there is a lot of crazy stuff going on around here, IMHO the NEK is still a great place to live.


----------



## Masskier (Oct 12, 2014)

What a awesome shot.  Do you sell any of your photos?  They would make great housewarming gifts for new owners.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> What a awesome shot.  Do you sell any of your photos?  They would make great housewarming gifts for new owners.



I haven't sold anything yet but I'm sure something can be arranged :smile:.


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Even thought there is a lot of crazy stuff going on around here, IMHO the NEK is still a great place to live.



WOW!! Amazing work.  

(not to mention the most interesting post in 188 pages)


----------



## Boardguy (Oct 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> WOW!! Amazing work.
> 
> (not to mention the most interesting post in 188 pages)



+ about a 100


----------



## the original trailboss (Oct 21, 2014)

Interesting to note that the recent ads for Burke interchangeably use Q Burke Mountain Resort and Q Burke Mountain. For the record, Q Burke (Mountain) Resort is on/at Burke Mountain. There is no such place as Q Burke Mountain !


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 21, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> Interesting to note that the recent ads for Burke interchangeably use Q Burke Mountain Resort and Q Burke Mountain. For the record, Q Burke (Mountain) Resort is on/at Burke Mountain. There is no such place as Q Burke Mountain !



I have heard that too. :roll:


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 21, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I have heard that too. :roll:



Ok, the joke is old. In the words of my excellent college coach when I got mad at the refs, get over it.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 21, 2014)

We're not really talking about the Q Burke branding of the resort, but rather the mountain itself (the geologic feature) is being referred to as Q Burke Mountain. This is akin to referring to Mt Mansfield as Mt Stowe.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 21, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> We're not really talking about the Q Burke branding of the resort, but rather the mountain itself (the geologic feature) is being referred to as Q Burke Mountain. This is akin to referring to Mt Mansfield as Mt Stowe.



Still. It means nothing. Ignore it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 21, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Still. It means nothing. Ignore it.


It means something.  Keep in mind that a major misstep last year was the alienation of the local community.  Misstating the name of the mountain is a clue as to whether or not Q-Jr has learned from his mistakes.  

Having said that, I've got my fingers crossed for a good year.  As a passholder, I'm really hoping things go smoothly.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Having said that, I've got my fingers crossed for a good year.  As a passholder, I'm really hoping things go smoothly.



You can always hedge it with being able to post a lot of 'told ya so's' if it isn't a good year. I know your style.


----------



## burski (Oct 21, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> You can always hedge it with being able to post a lot of 'told ya so's' if it isn't a good year. I know your style.



There are some people who walk thru this world and give a shi$ and others who bend over and take it from the countless dbags (better yet, "qbags") out there.  VT is not the only one showing their style here


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 21, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Still. It means nothing. Ignore it.



For a guy who has a significant interest in the place you sure are being pretty naive. I'd be DAMN concerned if I was BMA as to how things are going.  You seem to forget that these guys slandered the guy who kept Burke going for ten years and writes checks to BMA so your kid can go there. Minor detail.

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Oct 21, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> For a guy who has a significant interest in the place you sure are being pretty naive. I'd be DAMN concerned if I was BMA as to how things are going.  You seem to forget that these guys slandered the guy who kept Burke going for ten years and writes checks to BMA so your kid can go there. Minor detail.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Don't be naive to think I don't know more than you.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 21, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Don't be naive to think I don't know more than you.



Very funny.  Yep, all us NEKers are naive. We need to be saved from ourselves. 

My prediction is that Burke will have another "average" season, at least skier days wise. Nothing great, nothing horrendous. It's too bad because it could be doing a lot better.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## the original trailboss (Oct 22, 2014)

From the NEK is correct - it is the attempt to brand the geologic feature that is the issue. I know of at least one local business that asked an artist with a very nice Burke Mountain poster (and labeled Burke Mountain) to remove it and change it to Q Burke Mountain. Another example of people from somewhere else knowing more that we do, knowing what we need, and totally clueless about the character and personality that make places like Burke Mountain so unique and special. And up until the Q, the ski area was held in high regard in the ski world (just not the business world). Now we are 0 for 2............


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2014)

I heard from a very reliable source that baby-Q made some inquiries into how he could go about officially changing the name of the mountain.  He was told to pound sand, from what I am told.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Oct 22, 2014)

Its not even a good name for marketing purposes!!!   Its not like the name they came up with was a catchy cool name for a ski area.  They just slapped a Q before it.  It is a STUPID name.  Not a good sign about the leader's judgement and business sense.


----------



## the original trailboss (Oct 22, 2014)

For those of you who use Facebook, today's photo of the new  "Q Burke Hotel" and the resulting comments and response when questioned about the long-standing Hotel Burke name (their name on their website) is quite interesting to say the least


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> For those of you who use Facebook, today's photo of the new  "Q Burke Hotel" and the resulting comments and response when questioned about the long-standing Hotel Burke name (their name on their website) is quite interesting to say the least



I only see a couple comments. Am I missing something?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2014)

These folks are not going away....

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/sens...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-d17dad5162-405558657


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 25, 2014)

I'm in the NEK this weekend. The Cal Rec has want ads for the Mountain. Hiring all departments. Also looking for a food and beverage manager. That did last Quite so long.....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 26, 2014)

One of the few areas I've never skied. After 190 pages this place sounds like a train wreck.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> One of the few areas I've never skied. After 190 pages this place sounds like a train wreck.



That's what is the saddest part but Q Jr seems more willing to cut his nose to spite his face than just move on....


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## Boardguy (Oct 26, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> One of the few areas I've never skied. After 190 pages this place sounds like a train wreck.



I you are in the area and curious try it yourself and then judge. Yeah there are issues but I had a real nice season there last year. Don't base your entire opinion of Burke on this thread. By and large the thread is kept going by a small number participants, with some valid points I might add but a large amount of nit picking and nay saying too. As I said in an earlier post here sooner or later people will be arguing about the color of the drapes and cocktail napkins in the new hotel.

We have be going up there for close to twenty years (certainly not an eternity I know) and had great times at Burke. I find that for many residents of the area Burke is the mountain that everyone loves to hate. Not sure why but that is my observation and I stress MY. It does not matter much to me I just go and enjoy my time there and stay out of the politics. The mountain, town and the locals make for a great place to spend time. YMMV but judge for yourself.


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## jerryg (Oct 26, 2014)

"Q-Burke," really? Sounds like a marketing nightmare. Or just a douchebag run wild. Just sayin'! Good hill though, for sure!


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## VTKilarney (Oct 26, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm in the NEK this weekend. The Cal Rec has want ads for the Mountain. Hiring all departments. Also looking for a food and beverage manager. That did last Quite so long.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I thought that Masskier said that the new manager's wife was serving in that capacity?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that Masskier said that the new manager's wife was serving in that capacity?



Nope. I thought that. Turns out it was Jay's guy and he's going back to Jay because he was not Q material. Surprise, surprise.


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## the original trailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> One of the few areas I've never skied. After 190 pages this place sounds like a train wreck.



Steamboat 1 -  Burke the community, Burke the ski mountain, Burke the people are all awesome - you will love it here. The majority of the issues here are directly related to an owner who managed to diss a community, a ski community, the Kingdom Trails community, the entire history, personality and character that make (made) Burke so unique in the marketplace, etc in the name of whatever I am not sure. In addition, the planned build-out was geared towards beating the EB-5 program expiration date, not a right-sized project. And the q is just a bonus....


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> Steamboat 1 -  Burke the community, Burke the ski mountain, Burke the people are all awesome - you will love it here. The majority of the issues here are directly related to an owner who managed to diss a community, a ski community, the Kingdom Trails community, the entire history, personality and character that make (made) Burke so unique in the marketplace, etc in the name of whatever I am not sure. In addition, the planned build-out was geared towards beating the EB-5 program expiration date, not a right-sized project. And the q is just a bonus....



+1


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## vermonter44 (Oct 26, 2014)

Quick side track: What's Burke like around Christmas? Im considering getting a hotel up there for a few days but wasn't sure how the skiing is there so early in the season


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## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

Burke isn't known for rushing to open, and last year they had some serious snowmaking hiccups early in the season.  But assuming they get their act together with the snowmaking, I would recommend Burke if you prefer low crowds over amount of terrain open.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke isn't known for rushing to open, and last year they had some serious snowmaking hiccups early in the season.  But assuming they get their act together with the snowmaking, I would recommend Burke if you prefer low crowds over amount of terrain open.



+1

Unless it snows a lot, I'd say wait.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

It's too bad that they don't offer a Jay-Burke combo multi-day ticket.  (They don't, do they?)  That would take a lot of the risk away from an early season Burke visit.


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## vermonter44 (Oct 27, 2014)

I was at jay peak for for a couple of days around Christmas 2 years ago and I think they did let you transfer tickets between mountains, with the stipulation that you can only ski one mountain or the other per day


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## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

One thing that concerns me is that they have posted their lift ticket prices for this coming winter, but they have not posted anything in the "specials" section.  For as long as I can remember they have had a Sunday afternoon cheap ticket - although I was under the impression that it was for locals originally.  

Do they normally wait to post this type of special, or is the fact that it has not been posted yet a sign that things may be changing?  If they are going to continue the standard specials, they really should get those posted since people are starting to make plans for their winter travel.

I also see that, on a separate webpage, they have posted a 2-for-1 offer for Quebec residents.  I'm surprised that they don't get more people from the Eastern Townships with an offer like that, even if they don't have the beds for people from farther away.  One problem, though, is that Owl's Head is less expensive through Liftopia, and Burke isn't really much different than Owl's Head.  The owner of Owl's Head is also very much part of (and invested in) the local community, and has probably kept the long-term picture in mind.  

Owl's Head has got to be one of the best deals out there for those who don't want to spend a lot of time chasing deals around.  If you go to Liftopia you'd have a very hard time paying more than $26, even on the weekends.  Owl's Head has been very frugal with their infrastructure investments, and I am willing to bet they the aren't losing money at that rate.  And while they have been frugal, they still have lots of detachable quads, plenty of snowmaking, etc.  They just don't buy things that are new and fancy.  They are VERY good about taking advantage of the used market.


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## dlague (Oct 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One thing that concerns me is that they have posted their lift ticket prices for this coming winter, but they have not posted anything in the "specials" section.  For as long as I can remember they have had a Sunday afternoon cheap ticket - although I was under the impression that it was for locals originally.
> 
> Do they normally wait to post this type of special, or is the fact that it has not been posted yet a sign that things may be changing?  If they are going to continue the standard specials, they really should get those posted since people are starting to make plans for their winter travel.
> 
> ...



NEK Sundays has been around for quite some time.  At least the past ten years or more.  It also has been open to general public not just locals.  We used to ski Jay Peak or Owl's Head on Saturday then hit Burke on the way home.  They are always tight to the vest with that and often is not mentioned until the ski season actually starts or close to that.

BTW Owl's head Tuesday, Wendnesday deal is pretty good - $20 for everyone from January 6th, 2015 until the end of the season**including all school break.

Also,  Ride & Ski Cardholders always pay:

$29 for an adult lift ticket

$24 for a student lift ticket

$20 for a junior or senior lift ticket

All season long, including holidays.


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## Boardguy (Oct 27, 2014)

vermonter44 said:


> Quick side track: What's Burke like around Christmas? Im considering getting a hotel up there for a few days but wasn't sure how the skiing is there so early in the season



I have seen Christmas be really good and other times watched the grass grow. More often the latter. I think I would wait. Presidents week was very busy last year so avoid that if you can, conditions were excellent though. Also keep in mind it was crowded for Burke so crowded is a relative term. I don't think I would plan a Christmas trip anywhere in New England due to iffy conditions that time of year. Save your money for a bit later. Now that I said that this Christmas will be epic.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2014)

Q-Burke posted on Facebook that on Thursday they are discounting season passes by $200.  It appears to be a one day "throw back Thursday" promotion.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q-Burke posted on Facebook that on Thursday they are discounting season passes by $200.  It appears to be a one day "throw back Thursday" promotion.



Translation: they have not sold a lot of passes. Will the new discounted price be the same as the price this spring? Hope so. 


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2014)

The problem with offering a promotion like this is that you discourage early purchasing.  If they are smart, the promotion will not be cheaper than an earlier price.  I wish I could recall what the earlier prices were, but I can't off the top of my head.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The problem with offering a promotion like this is that you discourage early purchasing.  If they are smart, the promotion will not be cheaper than an earlier price.  I wish I could recall what the earlier prices were, but I can't off the top of my head.


Somewhere in the mid-$500 range I think.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Translation: they have not sold a lot of passes. Will the new discounted price be the same as the price this spring? Hope so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


It could be a reflection of summer business rather than winter pass sales.  Or it could just be a promotion.  But... promotions are not supposed to be random.  They are supposed to have a reason.  Assuming there is thought behind this promotion, I think it's reasonable to surmise that they are not content with the number of passes that have been sold.

I find it hard to believe that the number of passes sold varies by a whole lot, though.  As far as the locals are concerned, Burke does not have a competitor that is in their back yard.  That's the main reason I went with Burke rather than Bretton Woods.  Although, from St. Johnsbury the drive to Cannon is only about 10 minutes farther.  When my boys are a little better skill-wise, Cannon is going to be a real contender for our business.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Somewhere in the mid-$500 range I think.


This lowers the pass to $699, so that's a big enough difference to still encourage early purchases.

But weren't there two tiers?  One expired in April, IIRC.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

OK, $699 is not the $499 that they started out with, so it should not be a big issue.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

Well, the hits just keep on coming from the Q-man.  I spent the last few days up in the ‘Kingdom and caught up with a lot of friends and family.  Talked to a lot of folks about the Mountain and what is going on.  I will update the thread with some things over the next few days, but first topic is jobs and employees.  

Next to a good “product”, ski areas need to have good service.  Good employees are key.  

Burke had their first round of orientation on Monday night and one longtime employee told me that the crowd was very small, the meeting was short, and the food and coffee were the pits.  

Speaking of food, as I mentioned, Q let the food and bev manager go.  The guy found out by hearing from folks that his job was in the newspaper.  

It is also not a good sign when any company has a lot of job openings.  Say, openings for the entire company, top to bottom.  Looks like a lot of folks are not coming back:  http://www.skiburke.com/index.php/jobs/
Some of the job descriptions are very interesting to read.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

I didn't realize that they are also in need of a ski-school manager.  It seems that if the word "manager" is part of a job title, the position has had recent turnover.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

Any word on how summer revenues were?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Any word on how summer revenues were?



The only anecdote I heard was that the Tiki Bar was a smashing success.  In fact, during the Burketoberfest (I believe), Q had 3 people in attendance at his event while there were hundreds down at the Tiki Bar.  Apparently Burke nudged the folks at the Tiki Bar to close up when advertised so that folks "might" migrate to Q's event.  

This weekend they had a dance party at the mountain.  Pictures on Facebook show like 10 people in attendance.  So, anecdotally at least, locals just don't feel welcome up at the Mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

I have heard the same thing about the Tiki Bar.  I have also heard that the Pub Outback might as well be on life support.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I have heard the same thing about the Tiki Bar.  I have also heard that the Pub Outback might as well be on life support.



As to the latter, they have limited hours.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

This somehow slipped under the radar:
http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/975-burke-s-season-pass-deal

There are some very interesting things in the article.

It's also the first time that I have seen Mr. Cuccia publicly referred to as Burke's manager.  It's nice to see Burke finally recognize him.  After so much silence, it's nice to see that they have someone in place for this coming winter - and that the management situation has stabilized.  Even if I have taken issue with his lack of experience, at this point they need someone to take the reigns.  The snow guns are going to be blowing soon and Burke doesn't need to be dealing with a vacuum in management at that time.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

One tidbit from the article is that the former ticket scanner supervisor is now the events coordinator:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/patrick-bradley/28/790/748?trk=pub-pbmap


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## xwhaler (Oct 30, 2014)

dlague said:


> NEK Sundays has been around for quite some time.  At least the past ten years or more.  It also has been open to general public not just locals.  We used to ski Jay Peak or Owl's Head on Saturday then hit Burke on the way home.  They are always tight to the vest with that and often is not mentioned until the ski season actually starts or close to that.
> 
> BTW Owl's head Tuesday, Wendnesday deal is pretty good - $20 for everyone from January 6th, 2015 until the end of the season**including all school break.
> 
> ...



Owls Head looks interesting.   Never been but its close to the border and seems like a nice vibe.   Thinking of the wknd before Xmas doing a Burke-Owls Head combo....not mid winter but fitting the trip in based on my availability and can use the Fox vouchers to both.   Could see some cold December rains in the flatlands be snow up there.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2014)

One of the more interesting things that is mentioned in the News 7 article that I linked to, above, is that Burke is now pricing their season passes based on how many are sold.  In other words, they release X number of passes at Y price.  Once those are sold out, they move up to the next pricing tier, and so on, and so on.

It appears that this idea might have come from Jay Peak.  When Jay Peak sold Pump House season passes this summer, they sold them in the same manner.  Wherever it came from, it appears to be taken from the pricing method that airlines use.

I haven't had much time think the wisdom of this through, but based on the little thought I have given to it, I am not convinced that this is a good idea.

There can be no doubt that this method works very well for the airlines.  The airlines are sophisticated companies, and if they all employ this pricing strategy there has to be merit to it.  But there are some very major differences between an airline and a ski area.

The biggest similarity is that both industries have a perishable product.  If an airplane takes off with an unsold seat, that revenue is lost forever.  Ski areas can't turn back the clock, so if they don't sell a ticket on any given day, that revenue has likewise vanished.

But arguably the biggest difference is that airlines have a limited number of seats to be sold.  They want their plane to be full, but to have each seat filled with the person willing to pay the most for that seat.  In other words, the airline is happy to turn a paying customer away if that customer was going to pay less than another customer and the plane would still be full.

Burke does not have a problem with limited capacity.  So why, then, would Burke use a system that is designed to be selective rather than inclusive?  They are better of selling two passes at $599 rather than one at $899.

I guess it boils down to this: Does this system result in higher overall revenues?  The General Manager, in the interview, did not say that more passes have been sold this year.  They promotion offering a $200 discount suggests that they are not happy with their revenues from season passes.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One of the more interesting things that is mentioned in the News 7 article that I linked to, above, is that Burke is now pricing their season passes based on how many are sold.  In other words, they release X number of passes at Y price.  Once those are sold out, they move up to the next pricing tier, and so on, and so on.
> 
> It appears that this idea might have come from Jay Peak.  When Jay Peak sold Pump House season passes this summer, they sold them in the same manner.  Wherever it came from, it appears to be taken from the pricing method that airlines use.
> 
> ...



Interesting idea, but I think that it is too little too late for this season.  Most passes should have been bought for a while now.  Your locals are going to buy early to get the best price.  That (was) a big segment of their market.  So I don't know how effective it is going to be.  I think if they "knew" the business they'd realize that what they've sold as of now is pretty much what they are going to sell, with a few stragglers coming in late.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This somehow slipped under the radar:
> http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/975-burke-s-season-pass-deal
> 
> There are some very interesting things in the article.
> ...



I wonder if he had permission to do that interview....


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if he had permission to do that interview....


It's very odd to me that there has been no announcement about their new General Manager.  Nothing on Facebook, nothing in the news.  (At least as far as I can tell.)  He just mysteriously popped up in this article.


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## trackbiker (Oct 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if he had permission to do that interview....



I wonder who gave permission to print that article? Does an editor even look at this stuff before they put it on the web? Or does the editor not know the difference between "buy" and "by"? It had more typo's and misuse of homophones than snowflakes on the mountain in February. It was also not very clear about what the pricing differences were.
I'm not usually a stickler for a mistake here and there but that article was not even a high school level article never mind college level.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

trackbiker said:


> I wonder who gave permission to print that article? Does an editor even look at this stuff before they put it on the web? Or does the editor not know the difference between "buy" and "by"? It had more typo's and misuse of homophones than snowflakes on the mountain in February. It was also not very clear about what the pricing differences were.
> I'm not usually a stickler for a mistake here and there but that article was not even a high school level article never mind college level.



Bingo.  I love LSC News, but this was a very confusing and poorly written story.  I hope that student continues to improve.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2014)

trackbiker said:


> I'm not usually a stickler for a mistake here and there but that article was not even a high school level article never mind college level.


The article is not unique.  Just about every article I looked at had some cringe-worthy moments.  Take, for example, this quote from an earlier article about Burke:
_Thanks to the technology of snowmaking, mountains across the state are opening pre-season each year._


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## crank (Oct 31, 2014)

I has edit my posts on site like Alpine Zone better then that article.


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## burski (Nov 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It's very odd to me that there has been no announcement about their new General Manager.  Nothing on Facebook, nothing in the news.  (At least as far as I can tell.)  He just mysteriously popped up in this article.




There probably was no announcement because then there is no need for an explanation when he is gone - which according to local rumors has already happened - I am not sure who lasted longer Steve or this guy?  I hope they are going to install a revolving door on the new hotel


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## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2014)

What??????  Can anyone confirm is the new manager is already gone?????  Masskier, you are in the know, aren't you?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2014)

burski said:


> There probably was no announcement because then there is no need for an explanation when he is gone - which according to local rumors has already happened - I am not sure who lasted longer Steve or this guy?  I hope they are going to install a revolving door on the new hotel



My sources told me that Frank and his wife are gone. Q fired him and she quit. It just continues.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2014)

I honestly don't know what to say.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I honestly don't know what to say.



It's just a trainwreck.  Lots of locals are just frustrated.  All we can do is laugh I guess.  At least it can't get much worse.  Hopefully they trust Bill to get someone in there with ski resort experience and then just leave him/her alone to do their job.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 1, 2014)

It would appear that Bill has nothing to do with Burke.  If he does, all this business comedy reflects very poorly on him.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> It would appear that Bill has nothing to do with Burke.  If he does, all this business comedy reflects very poorly on him.



For Burke, Bill is only an "adviser to the board."  The Board being Q Sr. and his attorney.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2014)

So weeks before opening they need a:
- general manager
- food and beverage manager
- ski school manager
- guest relations manager
- marketing coordinator 

(face palm)


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## deadheadskier (Nov 1, 2014)

At least the payroll balance sheet looks pretty good right about now.  :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2014)

Ironically, if you look at Liftopia they seem to be discounting pretty heavily to get some cash flow.  Even holidays are fairly significantly discounted.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So weeks before opening they need a:
> - general manager
> - food and beverage manager
> - ski school manager
> ...



They need A LOT more than that:  http://www.skiburke.com/jobs/

Pretty much every job you can imagine is available.  

And before Q retention rate was something like 90%.


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## halfpintvt (Nov 2, 2014)

New motto: "When they build it, no one will come."


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## zeke (Nov 3, 2014)

halfpintvt said:


> New motto: "When they build it, no one will come."



speaking of building. is progress still being made on the hotel? and does everyone still believe that this is a good idea? it seems to be an ill-conceived (for this mountain) design quickly thrown together to meet some EB-5 deadline being managed, i assume, by the same people who have brought nothing but laughable leadership and an obvious lack of understanding, knowledge or caring for the actual mountain and its history.

or am i alone on that and it's any beds are good beds at this point?


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## oldtimer (Nov 3, 2014)

The body count on the webcam has been very low.  Construction looks to be slow bell, maybe even stopped.  

As for whether is is a good idea and right sized, under the current regime we will be lucky to get snow, lifts turning and a cup of coffee.  Arrive early if you want to park because they have done nothing to replace the mid-burke lots.  Urghhhhh-   we see the same old movie again at Burke.  Amateur hour.




zeke said:


> speaking of building. is progress still being made on the hotel? and does everyone still believe that this is a good idea? it seems to be an ill-conceived (for this mountain) design quickly thrown together to meet some EB-5 deadline being managed, i assume, by the same people who have brought nothing but laughable leadership and an obvious lack of understanding, knowledge or caring for the actual mountain and its history.
> 
> or am i alone on that and it's any beds are good beds at this point?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2014)

If construction has shifted to the interior, the webcam won't show as much action.  The key is the number of trucks at the worksite, and I don't think the webcam shows where people park.

I am not convinced that the hotel will change the feel of Burke as much as people fear.  The truth is that, even with the hotel, there will still be very few beds in the area.  The mountain can easily absorb the extra people staying in the hotel.  

I've always said that I want the mountain to be profitable - or at least to break even.  The hotel could be an important part of that.

My biggest fear, knowing that Stenger stated this past Spring that Burke was only 25% funded, is that the hotel will sit half-finished.  But I have not seen indications that this will happen.  Until I do I remain optimistic.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If construction has shifted to the interior, the webcam won't show as much action.  The key is the number of trucks at the worksite, and I don't think the webcam shows where people park.
> 
> I am not convinced that the hotel will change the feel of Burke as much as people fear.  The truth is that, even with the hotel, there will still be very few beds in the area.  The mountain can easily absorb the extra people staying in the hotel.
> 
> ...



I, too, initially was concerned that things had slowed down.  From my personal observations last Monday, there were not many trucks there and the activity was largely inside the building and out of sight from Mid-Burke.  There certainly were not 100's or people working....my best guestimate would be 20-50 or so....maybe.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2014)

The road to Mid Burke has been paved! Although there is a lot less parking there now.


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## dlague (Nov 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The road to Mid Burke has been paved! Although there is a lot less parking there now.



That parking lot was not that big before.  That will need to change.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The road to Mid Burke has been paved! Although there is a lot less parking there now.



Right.  Only those couple lots off of the access road.  The lot in front of MidBurke is completely gone.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 5, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  Only those couple lots off of the access road.  The lot in front of MidBurke is completely gone.



As I would be willing to bet that Mid-Burke Lodge will be too early next summer. Almost be willing to bet that they won't want anyone parking mid-mountain, that isn't going to be actually staying in the Hotel.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 5, 2014)

The Sherburne Lodge area will never handle the mid-Burke crowd, nor will the mid-Burke crowd handle the Sherburne Lodge. The visual of a race day/a powder day/a sunny day/etc with hotel guests only at mid-Burke and everyone else below......


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## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> As I would be willing to bet that Mid-Burke Lodge will be too early next summer. Almost be willing to bet that they won't want anyone parking mid-mountain, that isn't going to be actually staying in the Hotel.



Bingo.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

So I said that I would update the thread on things that I learned/saw on my visit to the NEK last week.  Here's another installment.

Folks here are all in agreement that the "Q" marketing thing has been a big mistake and looks dumb.  Q-2 is apparently undeterred.  During the past few months he made an effort to rename the _physical_ mountain "Q Burke Mountain" officially. That did not get too far.  

When that did not work, he contacted local merchants and told them that any "Burke" merchandise that they sell, independent of the mountain, must be changed to "Q Burke Mountain."  For example, a local potter who makes mugs with an image of the mountain from Darling Hill, has been told that he can't use "Burke Mountain" as the label...it has to be "Q Burke Mountain."  Post cards that are taken by local photographers and show Burke Mountain from Lyndonville?  It has to be Q Burke Mountain.  

:roll:

All you can do is laugh.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> When that did not work, he contacted local merchants and told them that any "Burke" merchandise that they sell, independent of the mountain, must be changed to "Q Burke Mountain."  For example, a local potter who makes mugs with an image of the mountain from Darling Hill, has been told that he can't use "Burke Mountain" as the label...it has to be "Q Burke Mountain."  Post cards that are taken by local photographers and show Burke Mountain from Lyndonville?  It has to be Q Burke Mountain.
> 
> :roll:
> 
> All you can do is laugh.



Screw that...
I'm pretty sure he can't force anyone to do that. "Burke Mountain" is a physical feature that cannot be copyrighted.


That said, it is supposed to snow tonight and tomorrow!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Screw that...
> I'm pretty sure he can't force anyone to do that. "Burke Mountain" is a physical feature that cannot be copyrighted.
> 
> 
> That said, it is supposed to snow tonight and tomorrow!



Agree.  And like the segue.  It is warm and dry out here


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 6, 2014)

Jesus.....Steve, Bill. Someone come in and tell this kid what a moron he's being.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Jesus.....Steve, Bill. Someone come in and tell this kid what a moron he's being.



They can try...like many locals have tried diplomatically.  One former employee told me how during the height of the KT showdown last year he pulled Q-2 aside and pled with him to rethink his course.  It did not work.  You can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> *Folks here are all in agreement that the "Q" marketing thing has been a big mistake and looks dumb.  Q-2 is apparently undeterred.  During the past few months he made an effort to rename the physical mountain "Q Burke Mountain" officially.* That did not get too far.
> 
> When that did not work, *he contacted local merchants and told them that any "Burke" merchandise that they sell, independent of the mountain, must be changed to "Q Burke Mountain." *



Wow.  This isnt going to end well.   Clearly this guy isnt really a marketing genius, but how tone-deaf can one man seriously be?

How exactly are people finding out about this anyway, does he personally go into little Mom & Pop shops in Vermont and start bossing people around?



from_the_NEK said:


> Screw that...
> *I'm pretty sure he can't force anyone to do that. "Burke Mountain" is a physical feature that cannot be copyrighted.*



Yeah, this makes no sense.  It would be one thing if the company name was "Ski Douchebag's Resort (SDR)", which is located on Burke Mountain, then you wouldnt be able to use the SDR name without permission, but as you said, "Burke Mountain" really is the proper name of the hill.  

Also, given he's claiming the actual name of the business is now "Q Burke Mountain" and not "Burke Mountain", that would infer that your merchandise/art MUST be referring to the ski area business and not to the mountain itself.  Good luck with that.


----------



## mister moose (Nov 6, 2014)

You either own the trademark to "Burke Mountain" or you don't.  A quick search yielded no trademarks, not for Burke Mountain, Q Burke Mountain, Q-Burke Mountain, or Q-Burke.  *BURKE*'S BACON BAR however is taken.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2014)

mister moose said:


> *You either own the trademark to "Burke Mountain" or you don't.*  A quick search yielded no trademarks, not for Burke Mountain, Q Burke Mountain, Q-Burke Mountain, or Q-Burke.  *BURKE*'S BACON BAR however is taken.



How can you trademark the proper name of a physical place that you don't own?    

 That sounds like trademarking Mount Everest or the Gulf of Mexico.


----------



## mister moose (Nov 6, 2014)

From the USPTO.GOV website:



> Under U.S. trademark law, geographic terms or signs are not registrable as trademarks if they are geographically descriptive or geographically misdescriptive of where the goods/services originate. The theory is that other producers in that area would need to be able to use a geographic term to describe where their goods/services are from and that one person should not be able to prevent others from using that term. If a term is misdescriptive for the goods/services, consumers would be mislead and/or deceived by the use of the term on goods/services that do not come from the place identified.However, a geographical indication, as defined in TRIPS, identifies a good, not merely a geographic area. If a geographic term is used in such a way as to identify the source of the goods/services and, over time, consumers start to recognize it as identifying a particular company or manufacturer or group of producers, the geographic term no longer describes only where the goods/services come from, it also describes the "source" of the goods/services. We say that the term has "secondary meaning" or "acquired distinctiveness." The primary meaning to consumers is the geographic place, whereas the secondary meaning to consumers is the producing or manufacturing source. If a descriptive term has "secondary meaning" to consumers, the term has a source-identifying capacity and is protectable as a trademark. Because of this feature of U.S. trademark law, geographical terms or signs can also be protected as trademarks or collective marks.




So if you qualify as a geographical indicator, (Vermont Maple Syrup) it is trademarkable.  I'm not sure you could make the case for trademarking "Vermont" or in this case "Burke Mountain".  That's a lawyer question.

My point was more that if you don't own it, you can't direct its use.


----------



## Edd (Nov 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So I said that I would update the thread on things that I learned/saw on my visit to the NEK last week.  Here's another installment.
> 
> Folks here are all in agreement that the "Q" marketing thing has been a big mistake and looks dumb.  Q-2 is apparently undeterred.  During the past few months he made an effort to rename the _physical_ mountain "Q Burke Mountain" officially. That did not get too far.
> 
> ...



Whoa, I can't believe this is sounding worse and worse. Where's the bottom, here?  Sounds like a body snatcher situation where the guy doesn't understand humans.


----------



## trackbiker (Nov 6, 2014)

They are trying to make the "Q" brand like the "Mc" in McDonalds or the reversed R in Toys-R-Us where those terms become familiar and people use the term to describe similar but unrelated things. Those type of things have to arise spontaneously. They cannot make it happen. If you try to force it or "push" it, it always is rejected. But then I guess the marketing guy that tried to tell them this got fired.

I think the Q-tips people should come after them for trademark infringement.


----------



## Savemeasammy (Nov 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> During the past few months he made an effort to rename the _physical_ mountain "Q Burke Mountain" officially. That did not get too far.
> 
> When that did not work, he contacted local merchants and told them that any "Burke" merchandise that they sell, independent of the mountain, must be changed to "Q Burke Mountain."  For example, a local potter who makes mugs with an image of the mountain from Darling Hill, has been told that he can't use "Burke Mountain" as the label...it has to be "Q Burke Mountain."  Post cards that are taken by local photographers and show Burke Mountain from Lyndonville?  It has to be Q Burke Mountain.
> 
> ...



What a jackass.  I think his Dad needs to throw him over his knee and spank him.  And then take away all of his toys...



Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> How exactly are people finding out about this anyway, does he personally go into little Mom & Pop shops in Vermont and start bossing people around?



I know that he called the owners of at least two retail establishments and insisted that any products in their store with "Burke Mountain" needed to be changed to "Q Burke Mountain."  That was relayed to management and vendors.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 6, 2014)

Smart business people.  I would think the retailers would know that no one wants Q Burke logo'd product.  It would just turn into dead inventory.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2014)

True story: His job in the military was public relations.   He's probably indirectly responsible for ISIS.  


Sent from my iPhone, excuse brevity and typos.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> True story: His job in the military was public relations.   He's probably indirectly responsible for ISIS.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, excuse brevity and typos.



Rumor is he's been making phone calls to Iraq to push for Q-ISIS.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> True story: His job in the military was public relations.   He's probably indirectly responsible for ISIS.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, excuse brevity and typos.



If you poke around Burke's FB page and read what "Burke Mountain" has to say, you quickly realize that Q-2 is the one writing the posts. Most are pointed if not douchey. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> If you poke around Burke's FB page and read what "Burke Mountain" has to say, you quickly realize that Q-2 is the one writing the posts. Most are pointed if not douchey.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Is there anyone left other than Baby-Q to write posts on Facebook?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Is there anyone left other than Baby-Q to write posts on Facebook?



Add it to his job title.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 7, 2014)

mister moose said:


> You either own the trademark to "Burke Mountain" or you don't.  A quick search yielded no trademarks, not for Burke Mountain, Q Burke Mountain, Q-Burke Mountain, or Q-Burke.  *BURKE*'S BACON BAR however is taken.



No one owns it? Quick! Someone grab it and make that MORON quit using it!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> No one owns it? Quick! Someone grab it and make that MORON quit using it!



Dude, a few weeks ago we could have owned Burke's URL!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Dude, a few weeks ago we could have owned Burke's URL!



But then he would have had the excuse to switch it over to "Qburke.com" .


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> But then he would have had the excuse to switch it over to "Qburke.com" .



We could have bought that too I imagine


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 7, 2014)

I made it up to Mid-Burke yesterday and snapped a few pics. Most work is occurring in the basement of the Hotel right now. They have exterior walls up.



Mid-BurkeConstruction by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Mid-BurkeConstruction4 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Mid-BurkeConstruction3 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Mid-BurkeConstruction2 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Mid-BurkeExpress by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Nov 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> True story: His job in the military was public relations.   He's probably indirectly responsible for ISIS.



Whose military?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2014)

Word of advice to Q-2: don't post stupid videos showing that you can't drive in snow on Facebook.....





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152889774888023
			




Especially if you are trying to convince everyone that you are an expert ski resort manager.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2014)

Saturday's Caledonian Record has an article about Q-Burke.  Baby-Q's statements are utterly patronizing and bizarre.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2014)

And in the "unoriginal marketing" category, we have this gem:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Saturday's Caledonian Record has an article about Q-Burke.  Baby-Q's statements are utterly patronizing and bizarre.





Boy they haven't learned anything. Can you link it?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

I wonder how many people purchase an online description to the Caladonian Record?   I'm surprised they don't allow at least a few free articles to be read each month like other online newspapers.  

I'm interested to hear what the buffoon has to say about staff departures in the article.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> 
> 
> Boy they haven't learned anything. Can you link it?
> 
> ...



Looks like it's behind the pay-wall, geez their prices are up there...

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]11/8/2014 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Burke Mountain:Quiros Addresses Staff Departures, Hotel Construction At QBurke*[/FONT]


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Looks like it's behind the pay-wall, geez their prices are up there...
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]11/8/2014 [/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Burke Mountain:Quiros Addresses Staff Departures, Hotel Construction At QBurke*[/FONT]



Well, I bet he confirmed that he fired Frank and his wife.  I also know that are in desperate need of regular staff since the locals are not coming back to work with him.  Sorry to be "naysaying", just telling the truth.

I'd say that this is the last season for q.  But then again he is entrenched for war.  That does not work in the hospitality business.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

And re: Hotel

I don't know what the article says, but a reliable source has told me that q has decided to slow down construction this winter to save money and thus the Hotel will be delayed.  Not sure if anyone else can verify, but that is what I've been hearing (and what it looked like when I went up to take a look a couple weeks ago).


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

I would give highlights of the article, but it really wouldn't do the madness justice.  It's as if Baby-Q thinks that he is talking to two year olds.  I've never seen anything like it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And in the "unoriginal marketing" category, we have this gem:
> 
> View attachment 14224



Well, they'd better hope that Dos Equis marketing folks don't see that.  It may be trademark infringement.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, they'd better hope that Dos Equis marketing folks don't see that.  It may be trademark infringement.


I was wondering about that myself.  And since the mascot appeals to children, is it really a wise idea to have the 12 pack of beer sitting next to the bear?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I was wondering about that myself.  And since the mascot appeals to children, is it really a wise idea to have the 12 pack of beer sitting next to the bear?



We're seeing another management meltdown moment.  I'm getting tired of seeing this movie about Burke again, and again.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

A friend sent me the Burke article.  q confirmed that he hired a new GM but will not reveal his/her identity "for several months".  :lol:  You can't make this up.  

He also claims that he is fully staffed, but there are several want ads up on the Cal Rec and on the site.  

And he dismisses rumors that there are unpaid construction contractors for the hotel.  

As to the claim of "mass resignations", q explains that it is a conspiracy theory of sorts so that departed employees can reason why they left.  Obviously they have not lived up to his high performance standards is his explanation.  

This is hilarious.

Also of interest is an article outlining how the Balsam's is proceeding with construction work.  Interesting comparison there: amateur hour at Burke and Balsams with Les Otten helping out.  Say what you want,  but I think folks would trade q for LBO any day.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

Yup, you read that right.  There is now a "mystery" General Manager.  

I also loved the part about it taking years for staff to meet his high standards.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

And what about the talk of subcontractors not being paid?


Sent from my iPhone, excuse brevity and typos.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And what about the talk of subcontractors not being paid?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, excuse brevity and typos.



"Nonsense!  Everyone up here is happy, very happy!"

That tune sounds familiar.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Yup, you read that right.  There is now a "mystery" General Manager.
> 
> I also loved the part about it taking years for staff to meet his high standards.



The "4-5 year" comment made me cringe.  He needed to be gone last month.  Burke will be dead within 4-5 years at this rate.


----------



## Edd (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> A friend sent me the Burke article.  q confirmed that he hired a new GM but will not reveal his/her identity "for several months".  :lol:  You can't make this up.
> 
> He also claims that he is fully staffed, but there are several want ads up on the Cal Rec and on the site.
> 
> ...



Ok, I'm done. I've slipped into a state of disbelief. There's no f*****g way this is happening up there. We're all being punked.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

Edd said:


> Ok, I'm done. I've slipped into a state of disbelief. There's no f*****g way this is happening up there. We're all being punked.



I'm just still in disbelief that they even let q take the microphone again after last year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

Describing the article doesn't do it justice, trust me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

Trailboss, if you got that in email, please copy and paste the text here.

It would make for a good Saturday afternoon laugh.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Trailboss, if you got that in email, please copy and paste the text here.
> 
> It would make for a good Saturday afternoon laugh.



Or at least PM it to a few of us!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

OK, here goes:



			
				The Caledonian Record said:
			
		

> CEO QUIROS ADDRESSES
> QBURKE RESORT CHANGES
> 
> BY JAMES JARDINE
> ...



So you can see why I mocked the "everyone's happy" comment.  That is nonsense.  In sum, it is a lot of "do what I say, not what I do".


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And re: Hotel
> 
> I don't know what the article says, but a reliable source has told me that q has decided to slow down construction this winter to save money and thus the Hotel will be delayed.  Not sure if anyone else can verify, but that is what I've been hearing (and what it looked like when I went up to take a look a couple weeks ago).



Why would you possibly want to slow down and delay ROI? The quicker it's done, the quicker the beds, bars, cafeterias get filled...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Why would you possibly want to slow down and delay ROI? The quicker it's done, the quicker the beds, bars, cafeterias get filled...



Exactly.  My understanding was that it was cost since there was a surcharge for winter construction.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2014)

> Quiros said there is no point in trying to run lifts and make snow  during weekdays ahead of the traditional Christmas holiday season. It’s  expensive and very few people want to ski.



NOPE! Evidently all the other mountains out there don't have a clue what they are doing, blowing snow and opening so early before Thanksgiving! :grin:

Was really hoping to spend some quality time at Burke this winter, but I guess I can get re-acquainted with Wildcat instead! 

I vote heavily with my feet & wallet!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> NOPE! Evidently all the other mountains out there don't have a clue what they are doing, blowing snow and opening so early before Thanksgiving! :grin:



No, they're losers because they don't offer the "superior" customer service that q offers.  Usually to get your employees to offer "superior" customer service, you have to treat your own employees at least very well if not "superior".  It starts at the top.  You'd think a military man would get that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

thanks trailboss

wow :lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

The Burke Chamber of Commerce should start a "guess the general manager" contest.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm surprised he hasn't gotten roasted on Facebook yet for the GM to be revealed in a few months remark.  :lol:  

Hay anyone ever met Q junior?  He just sounds really socially awkward.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

A couple (of the many) quotes that struck me from the article:

1) _“If you are evaluated on your performance and your performance is not up to standards, you will be replaced.”_
Does that apply to you, Baby-Q?

2) _Quiros said there is no point in trying to run lifts *and make snow *during weekdays ahead of the traditional Christmas holiday season_
There is no point in trying to make snow before Christmas???????


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

Also notice that employees may only ski free on Tuesdays. Looks like no free pass for those folks. That's pretty much an industry standard. q wanted to ax free passes for employees last year and reneged at the last minute. Looks like he will cut that benefit this year. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2014)

The article doesn't say that employees can only ski for free on Tuesday.  Are you sure about that?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The article doesn't say that employees can only ski for free on Tuesday.  Are you sure about that?



I read that as implied.  Maybe not. Can anyone confirm? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2014)

http://www.skiburke.com/jobs/

It says free skiing and riding on their jobs page.

I took what he read as on Tuesdays, employees can bring their families skiing for free.  That's a nice benefit, other than it being a Tuesday when people will struggle to take advantage of it.  I would think they'd be fine offering on Sundays.  It's not like the place is crowded and allowing more people on the hill will make that much of a difference.


----------



## Whiteout (Nov 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Word of advice to Q-2: don't post stupid videos showing that you can't drive in snow on Facebook.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That song in the background is so ironic. The lyrics... "my father said. Dont you worry don't you worry child. See heaven's got a plan for you."
That guy couldnt run a lemonade stand. LmFAO


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2014)

Whiteout said:


> That song in the background is so ironic. The lyrics... "my father said. Dont you worry don't you worry child. See heaven's got a plan for you."
> That guy couldnt run a lemonade stand. LmFAO



Good observation.  A lot of folks took him to task for posting that on FB.  I think he is doing things just to piss people off.  It only is hurting him.


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

"Team Beaverkill" is on the hill  !!  You just can't make this stuff up......


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 9, 2014)

Well, it goes with the new drunk, womanizing bear mascot.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

He just can't help himself!


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

He needs to get his own bear !


----------



## Boardguy (Nov 10, 2014)

I was up this past weekend and I heard from two different people that the gentleman from Fastenal (sp?) is still the GM and his wife is sill there too. Take it for it is worth, just local gossip. I have no idea what the truth of the matter is. I did find the quote in the paper about eventually revealing the name of the new manager odd.

On a more positive note they were doing employee training on lift evacuation yesterday. There were a bunch of cars in the lot both Sat. and Sun. so I assume they were training both days.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

Boardguy said:


> I was up this past weekend and I heard from two different people that the gentleman from Fastenal (sp?) is still the GM and his wife is sill there too. Take it for it is worth, just local gossip. I have no idea what the truth of the matter is. I did find the quote in the paper about eventually revealing the name of the new manager odd.
> 
> On a more positive note they were doing employee training on lift evacuation yesterday. There were a bunch of cars in the lot both Sat. and Sun. so I assume they were training both days.



The Fastenal Guy is gone.  He was fired two weeks ago; his wife quit the next day.  Hence, the "I have a GM but will tell you who it is later" line.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

It will probably take a few months for the new manager to legally change their name to add the letter "q" to the beginning.  Once that is done they will probably announce who it is.  It'll should be something like "Q-John Q-Smith" or "Q-Jane Q-Wilson".

/sarcasm


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2014)

Anyone could see that this train was in disrepair.

But I think we've now arrived at that key moment when it's left the tracks....    Trainwreck imminent, IMO.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And in the "unoriginal marketing" category, we have this gem:



Though I must admit, I do love alcoholic, naughty-touching, Q-Teddy Ruxpin


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 10, 2014)

To be fair, the box s full of "Bear Essentials" and not beer. 
And on that note...:beer:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> To be fair, the box s full of "Bear Essentials" and not beer.
> And on that note...:beer:



Interesting.  I could not read it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

I don't think it's meant to be juice.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> To be fair, *the box s full of "Bear Essentials" and not beer.*



I'd like to think it's Mad Dog 20/20 or Thunderbird.  

You can tell that bear's a filthy degenerate.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 10, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd like to think it's Mad Dog 20/20 or Thunderbird.
> 
> You can tell that bear's a filthy degenerate.



Those can only be drank out of a paper bag. Well that's how I drink MD 20/20.


----------



## Boardguy (Nov 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The Fastenal Guy is gone.  He was fired two weeks ago; his wife quit the next day.  Hence, the "I have a GM but will tell you who it is later" line.



Yep read that here a while back, heard it once over the weekend. Then heard he was still there twice this weekend.   Heard lots of other stuff too without asking about any of it. The town is just abuzz with different versions of what is going on.


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 10, 2014)

I just heard that the consultants doing the design for the hotel have stopped work because they have run out of money.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 10, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> I just heard that the consultants doing the design for the hotel have stopped work because they have run out of money.



Where oh where is Massskier?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> I just heard that the consultants doing the design for the hotel have stopped work because they have run out of money.



No surprise.  If you read that article closely, you can see that (1) he has no GM; (2) they are late on paying subs for the Hotel; and (3) there's a lot of conflict up there right now.  q tries to dispel these "rumors" but you can see that he clearly doesn't.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> "Team Beaverkill" is on the hill  !!  You just can't make this stuff up......



WTF?  :blink:


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Masskier is way too much of a p*ssy to speak when he's under the gun.  He reads this, though.  


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Can anyone explain why the steel for the top couple of floors was never installed?  They had the crane there, after all.


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Can anyone explain why the steel for the top couple of floors was never installed?  They had the crane there, after all.



It is probably the same construction as the Tram House at Jay. Only the stairwells have steel the rest is stick frame construction.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 10, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> I just heard that the consultants doing the design for the hotel have stopped work because they have run out of money.



That makes no sense to me. All major design of that hotel had to be completed before approval was given to start construction. For example, all facades, electrical, mechanical, room layout, services, entrances, and ADA requirements, would have already been designed and layout in the building application, before approval would have been granted. As far as interior design, I guess that might be an issue. But would think that would be small $$$$ compared to the overall project cost.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

I had the same thought.  What design work is really left other than interior?


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> It is probably the same construction as the Tram House at Jay. Only the stairwells have steel the rest is stick frame construction.



Ahh... I didn't realize that.  


.


----------



## JPTracker (Nov 10, 2014)

mbedle said:


> That makes no sense to me. All major design of that hotel had to be completed before approval was given to start construction. For example, all facades, electrical, mechanical, room layout, services, entrances, and ADA requirements, would have already been designed and layout in the building application, before approval would have been granted. As far as interior design, I guess that might be an issue. But would think that would be small $$$$ compared to the overall project cost.



The way it works is that the design that is submitted for approvals is only complete to a certain point, I think about 25%. This design has all the necessary info for approvals and cost estimates. Also that way if the approval process requires changes it minimizes the cost. All the detail drawings which are required for actual construction are done later. All the plans for the electrical and mechanical systems are usually done last. This is most likely the work that has been stopped.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Is a local firm doing the design?


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## WoodCore (Nov 10, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> "Team Beaverkill" is on the hill  !!  You just can't make this stuff up......




Still trying to figure this one out????? WTF! Either way from here on out the first round of snowmaking at Qburke shall be know as "blowin' the beavers out" per Qdipshit.  

*In a somewhat related note, pretty sure I know where Burke gets it's water for snowmaking but looking to confirm. Can anyone help? Thinking they pump from the Passumpsic River up to the holding pond by the Willoughby Quad and then into the pump house and up the mountain? Don't see how else it could function.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

They just posted a new "Most Interesting Bear" ad to their Facebook page.  It's not even funny or clever.  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

WoodCore said:


> Still trying to figure this one out????? WTF! Either way from here on out the first round of snowmaking at Qburke shall be know as "blowin' the beavers out" per Qdipshit.
> 
> *In a somewhat related note, pretty sure I know where Burke gets it's water for snowmaking but looking to confirm. Can anyone help? Thinking they pump from the Passumpsic River up to the holding pond by the Willoughby Quad and then into the pump house and up the mountain? Don't see how else it could function.



Yes. They pump water from the Passumpsic to that pond. Northern Star added that line and infrastructure from the river in the late 1990's. HUGE improvement. 


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> I just heard that the consultants doing the design for the hotel have stopped work because they have run out of money.



You OBVIOUSLY did not hear Little q's official response....or believe it:


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

If the hotel has come to a halt, does anyone worry about operating capital for the upcoming season?


----------



## WoodCore (Nov 10, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes. They pump water from the Passumpsic to that pond. Northern Star added that line and infrastructure from the river in the late 1990's. HUGE improvement.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Thanks for the confirmation on the system! 

:beer:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> If the hotel has come to a halt, does anyone worry about operating capital for the upcoming season?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

We just got an email from our children's school saying that the price for the season ski pass has been reduced by $50 for a limited time.  They are definitely trying to drum up pass sales with some of the promotions lately.

And keep in mind that Baby-Q is now on record saying that there is no point in making snow prior to December 22nd.  I'd like to think that this was a misprint, but I am now really starting to wonder.  Only time will tell when "Team Beaverkill" decides to blow some snow.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)




----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)




----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)




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## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> If the hotel has come to a halt, does anyone worry about operating capital for the upcoming season?



Theoretically they are separate companies, but it's definitely a concern.  


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## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Here is their latest trademark infringing advertisement:


----------



## Masskier (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> If the hotel has come to a halt, does anyone worry about operating capital for the upcoming season?



Hotel is still on schedule to open December 2015.  Not sure why people think things are slowing down. Site work is done for the season. wood framing has started and interior work is ongoing.  Tennis and aquatic center is still on track to break ground next year.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We just got an email from our children's school saying that the price for the season ski pass has been reduced by $50 for a limited time.  They are definitely trying to drum up pass sales with some of the promotions lately.
> 
> And keep in mind that Baby-Q is now on record saying that there is no point in making snow prior to December 22nd.  I'd like to think that this was a misprint, but I am now really starting to wonder.  Only time will tell when "Team Beaverkill" decides to blow some snow.



Snow making starts this week


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

Who is the GM to be named in a few months?


----------



## Masskier (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Who is the GM to be named in a few months?



That info is being kept confidential


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## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Why?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2014)

Hire a GM from another resort?

Sorry, it's just the most bizarre thing to hire a Fastenal guy, fire him, say you have a new GM, but you won't announce who it is for a few months.

Is he/she going to go around and greet guests with a bag over their head to conceal their identity?


----------



## Edd (Nov 10, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Is he/she going to go around and greet guests with a bag over their head to conceal their identity?



I think you've figured it out. I've wondered what the Unknown Comic is up to.


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


>



Way too funny !!!!


----------



## the original trailboss (Nov 11, 2014)

Those ads only confirm my comment - get your own bear, especially if you're going to do this to him. Burkie, in its many versions, has always been a family/kids/people-friendly mascot, not an urbane, pseudo-sophisticated ..........


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## burski (Nov 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Hotel is still on schedule to open December 2015.  Not sure why people think things are slowing down. Site work is done for the season. wood framing has started and interior work is ongoing.  Tennis and aquatic center is still on track to break ground next year.



Not sure how the tennis and aquatic center will break ground next year when they haven't even started the permit process for these?   I assume they may require act 250 and local permitting which can take considerable time, have they even been designed yet?


----------



## mbedle (Nov 11, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> The way it works is that the design that is submitted for approvals is only complete to a certain point, I think about 25%. This design has all the necessary info for approvals and cost estimates. Also that way if the approval process requires changes it minimizes the cost. All the detail drawings which are required for actual construction are done later. All the plans for the electrical and mechanical systems are usually done last. This is most likely the work that has been stopped.



That is odd, considering the below company has this listed on their website. which goes against what you said about typical electrical and mechanical system design schedules. The way I look at it, even if they don't have the money through EB-5, they will take it out of their pocket to finish the job. 

Q Burke Mountain Resort
East Burke, Vermont

Professional Services Provided

Electrical Engineering
Mechanical Engineering
Description of Professional Services

DuBois & King provided mechanical, electrical, and plumbing design services for construction of two 5-story hotel buildings and new Day Lodge building that links the two hotels. The 157,000-sf facility includes indoor parking garages, commercial and retail levels with conference centers, a full commercial kitchen, restaurant and bar, coffee shop, exercise/spa area, commercial laundry, and skier services. The 116 hotel rooms comprise studio and one and two bedroom units with integrated occupant controls (HVAC, lighting), fireplaces, and washer connections. Exterior electrical design services included site lighting, exterior pool/hot tub services, and 150,000-sf of sidewalk and driveway snowmelt. The fast-track design was completed in less than 5 months from schematic design to full construction documentation.


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## JPTracker (Nov 11, 2014)

mbedle said:


> That is odd, considering the below company has this listed on their website. which goes against what you said about typical electrical and mechanical system design schedules. The way I look at it, even if they don't have the money through EB-5, they will take it out of their pocket to finish the job.
> 
> Q Burke Mountain Resort
> East Burke, Vermont
> ...



I can't supply details but my comment came from someone who works in the industry and has direct knowledge of this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)




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## xwhaler (Nov 11, 2014)

I have thoughts of a Burke/Owls Head Fox44 combo special the wknd before X-Mas but its a lot of driving if snowmaking is not going strong.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

Masskier,

Three questions:
1) Is the new General Manager someone other than Ary?
2) Why does Q-Burke feel the need to delay identification of the new General Manager for a few months?
3) Have any subcontractors on the hotel project failed to be paid in a timely manner?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

Where is Q-Burke's General Manager?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Nov 11, 2014)

VTKilarney, you seem to spend a massive amount of time on this, what exactly is your agenda?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 11, 2014)

It sounds to me like there is no general manager.  

I think it's likely they took the unorthodox move of firing someone without having a replacement at the ready, but with the ski season about to start they don't want to admit that that's the case.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> VTKilarney, you seem to spend a massive amount of time on this, what exactly is your agenda?



I think like most of us he's passionate about the mountain. There have been some reasons for concern as of late. I'd prefer we talk about the issues instead of the individuals here, no matter how disturbing the issues may be.


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----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

I have no agenda other than caring deeply about the mountain and bemoaning the train wreck that is happening in front of our eyes.  This affects real people with real lives - and not for the better.  Change won't happen unless people are up front about the problems that exist.  I'm thinking about the long term, and not just pretending that everything is okay for the moment.

I'm not the type of person that would sit on the deck of the Titantic sipping a cocktail while insisting that nothing was wrong.  Call me crazy that way.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It sounds to me like there is no general manager.
> 
> I think it's likely they took the unorthodox move of firing someone without having a replacement at the ready, but with the ski season about to start they don't want to admit that that's the case.



But Masskier claims to know what is going on and implied that there was a manager!

IMHO, you hit the nail on the head.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It sounds to me like there is no general manager.
> 
> I think it's likely they took the unorthodox move of firing someone without having a replacement at the ready, but with the ski season about to start they don't want to admit that that's the case.



Exactly. I'd say that q is the GM. He's gone through two since June.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'd prefer we talk about the issues instead of the individuals heree


You have a very good point, and I will try to be much better about that.  IMHO it's fair to call someone out for a bad leadership decision, but I definitely have not limited my criticisms to that.  I've removed the memes that crossed that line.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Hotel is still on schedule to open December 2015.


Care to make a friendly bet on the accuracy of your statement?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2014)

Perhaps AZ should ask Burke to take our AlpineZone Challenge and to directly speak with folks here since we have some feedback. 


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## Masskier (Nov 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Hire a GM from another resort?
> 
> Sorry, it's just the most bizarre thing to hire a Fastenal guy, fire him, say you have a new GM, but you won't announce who it is for a few months.
> 
> Is he/she going to go around and greet guests with a bag over their head to conceal their identity?



LOL,  No, the newspaper article wasn't clear.  Yes, a new GM has been hired.  However he isn't schedule to start for several weeks.  At that time I'm sure his name will be announced.


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## Masskier (Nov 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Care to make a friendly bet on the accuracy of your statement?



You and I went through this back in May.  When you swore up and down that you had a reliable source, and you had connected all the dots,  and there was no money to start the new hotel.  You took victory laps multiple times, patting yourself on the back on how smart your were and even questioned my integrity and motivation.  You agreed to make a statement on June 22nd as to who had correct information and more reliable sources. And you never did.  Well the site work for the hotel started in mid May,  They are now ahead of schedule and have already spent millions of dollars.
As I told you back then I don't gamble,  But if I did why would I bet with you?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> As I told you back then I don't gamble,  But if I did why would I bet with you?


Because at this point the worst you could do is break even had you had any strength in your beliefs.



Masskier said:


> LOL, No, the newspaper article wasn't clear. Yes, a new GM has been hired. However he isn't schedule to start for several weeks. At that time I'm sure his name will be announced.


Translation: It will take a few weeks to find a new General Manager.  

If, Masker, what you said is true, I am even more concerned than I was previously.  Why? a) Why would Ary accept a new manager who could not start until well into the ski season? b) Why is Ary so inarticulate when talking to the media?  (e.g., saying a "few months" rather than "a few weeks")  The article was clear.  *They quoted Ary directly.*  It was Ary who was not clear, apparently. This is extremely troubling.

It is reasonable to conclude that he lied to the media when he said that the resort was fully staffed.  This is based on the fact that his own website tells a very different story.  The natural and probable consequence of these shenanigans is that people will not trust or believe you.  Have you spoken to Ary about the need to learn how to handle public relations better?  

You also keep dodging my third question: Have any subcontractors on the hotel project failed to be paid in a timely manner?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2014)

It's nice to see that Ary said that there is "plenty" of money to finish the hotel construction.  There has been a lot of concern over ongoing EB-5 projects, and I trust that Ary would not be so bold as to deceive the community about this important matter.  (A simple "The project continues to proceed as planned and we have every intention of seeing it through" would have been the responsible answer if there were problems envisioned down the road.)  It would be unconscionably insulting and dishonorable if his statement was untrue, and for as much as I have been critical of him I cannot imagine that he would ever stoop so low - not so long as he has any value for one's character.  As a member of the military, I cannot for a second believe that he does not value character.  So good news, indeed.


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## Masskier (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes. They pump water from the Passumpsic to that pond. Northern Star added that line and infrastructure from the river in the late 1990's. HUGE improvement.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Also, as you may know, Burke has access to more water than they probably will ever need for snow making.


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## Big Wave Dave (Nov 12, 2014)

hello all

been away for awhile because i dont think of skiing in the summer! but was over in East Burke last weekend so poked around a bit and here I am

the hotel is, from what I can tell, a game changer for burke. I feel that some of the negative folks on this site seem to be missing the forest through the tree's- the one thing that everyone has always agreed on Burkes viability is it needed more on site lodging- well its coming, thanks to Team Q and EB 5 money. I thought we had already determined it was fully funded too? Even if they are idiots, which they seem to be, they deserve credit for this. The  building itself is imposing, and the view it will control 9the notch, doesnt get much better) will IMHO be enough to put it on the map and keep it there.  When i was there they were installing the outer panels (skin) so it looked to me like work was progressing. Lots of people on the site. Nothing to compare to but it looked to me like a bustling work site. 

I dont understand what work is being done below the hotel though, above and around alpine road, grassy surfaces surrounded by fencing. looks like they cleared additional land for more trails, but I dont think this is part of the plan? Anyone got details? maybe a leach field?

And something else- its been a long time since I drove the roads between lower and upper mountain- looks like alot of big money (for the NEK) has gone into houses on burke in the last few years- great sign that people are voting with their wallets. Same with what appears to be a town house "community" at the entrance to the base lodge. Good signs, as well as the continued development of Bear Path.

And one other ramble- I also feel like they are slowly, slowly backing away from the Q Burke name. The 2014/2015 Jay glossy mag has a couple segments on Burke, and its always referred to as Burke, or Ski Burke. Seen this in some other on line advertising also. The Q Team does seem pretty tone deaf and totally unable to issue mea culpa's, but maybe the future is to keep the Q/Bear logo (which I like, as long as you ignore the Q) and move to a label such as Q Resort at Burke Mountain. Nothing too definitive on my part to speculate here but just a sense I am getting.

and I did not read Ary's quote saying they are not going to make snow  before 12/22. if so, I dont know how they would plan to open on 12/16- I saw that as a general statement that offering full mountain operations before christmas at burke simply is not economically viable- active daily snowmaking at many resorts is a means of surface improvement, which if you have limited skiing isnt needed. THAT BEING SAID... if they dont blow snow until December 22nd, it would be incredibly stupid. Pretty sure its also pretty stupid I pay $180 a year for online access to the Cal Record


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Also, as you may know, Burke has access to more water than they probably will ever need for snow making.



Depending on water levels in the East Branch of the Passumpsic. Depending on flow rate, they can only withdraw so much water. This gets trickier later in the winter if there are no thaws and the ice gets thick.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Depending on water levels in the East Branch of the Passumpsic. Depending on flow rate, they can only withdraw so much water. This gets trickier later in the winter if there are no thaws and the ice gets thick.



Exactly.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I dont understand what work is being done below the hotel though, above and around alpine road, grassy surfaces surrounded by fencing. looks like they cleared additional land for more trails, but I dont think this is part of the plan? Anyone got details? maybe a leach field?



The work below the hotel includes building up a huge area of fill immediately below the hotel that will be part of the driveway approach. Then below that, is the infrastructure to capture runoff. The blue area on the left of this picture is the drainage area down to the retention basin.



 



> And one other ramble- I also feel like they are slowly, slowly backing away from the Q Burke name. The 2014/2015 Jay glossy mag has a couple segments on Burke, and its always referred to as Burke, or Ski Burke. Seen this in some other on line advertising also. The Q Team does seem pretty tone deaf and totally unable to issue mea culpa's, but maybe the future is to keep the Q/Bear logo (which I like, as long as you ignore the Q) and move to a label such as Q Resort at Burke Mountain. Nothing too definitive on my part to speculate here but just a sense I am getting.


That would make too much sense. Your hopeful logic does not belong here. :wink::-D


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

In other news (that had been hinted in someones earlier post), the Pub Outback is closing at the end of this week. :sad:


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## Masskier (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> In other news (that had been hinted in someones earlier post), the Pub Outback is closing at the end of this week. :sad:



Only to reopen with a new owner.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Only to reopen with a new owner.



Rumor is some renovations will occur in the downtime and likely a new name.

My theory, based on who the the new operators of the establishment will be, is that we will see a brew pub.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> hello all
> 
> I also feel like they are slowly, slowly backing away from the Q Burke name. The 2014/2015 Jay glossy mag has a couple segments on Burke, and its always referred to as Burke, or Ski Burke. Seen this in some other on line advertising also. The Q Team does seem pretty tone deaf and totally unable to issue mea culpa's, but maybe the future is to keep the Q/Bear logo (which I like, as long as you ignore the Q) and move to a label such as Q Resort at Burke Mountain. Nothing too definitive on my part to speculate here but just a sense I am getting.



Man, I really hope so, but I doubt it.  I think there is a major split of opinion on that.  I know that the folks who do the marketing at JPR would privately concede that the Q thing is incredibly dumb for all the aforementioned reasons on here.  These folks, of course, did that magazine.  

The split is that q is not giving in and seems to be doubling down.  As I mentioned here, a couple local merchants told me that he is insisting that all merchandise that refers to the mountain needs to be "Q Burke" and he even tried to get the official geographic name changed to Q Burke Mountain.  If you read Ski Vermont Magazine you see that it refers to it as Q Burke.  

But no harm in hoping that someone has seen the light...


----------



## Masskier (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.



IIRC  Back in 2006-07 Burke did a study to determined how much water they would need at full build out for snow making and whether or not the river could provide it.  I'm not sure if they used 20 yr flows and level's or how they calculated it,  but it was concluded that there was more than enough water for snow making at full build out.  Back then they were estimating at peak they would need 3-4k gallons per minute.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> In other news (that had been hinted in someones earlier post), the Pub Outback is closing at the end of this week. :sad:



As much as I love the Pub, I can honestly say now that the place was hit or miss at best lately.  Last summer they served us water that was so terrible it would make you vomit and our food was terrible.  A couple weeks ago it was very good overall.  Sad to see it go, happy to hear the prospect of a new person at the helm.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> IIRC  Back in 2006-07 Burke did a study to determined how much water they would need at full build out for snow making and whether or not the river could provide it.  I'm not sure if they used 20 yr flows and level's or how they calculated it,  but it was concluded that there was more than enough water for snow making at full build out.  Back then they were estimating at peak they would need 3-4k gallons per minute.



Well, again, it all depends on how the level of the river and the conditions that VT imposed on them.  I'm not saying that they need more water.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 12, 2014)

There will also be another new restaurant opening in the summer right next to the Pub Outback and Mike's Tiki Bar.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The work below the hotel includes building up a huge area of fill immediately below the hotel that will be part of the driveway approach. Then below that, is the infrastructure to capture runoff. The blue area on the left of this picture is the drainage area down to the retention basin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are the purple lines?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> What are the purple lines?



Those are "proposed" surface lifts. The short one is likely a short carpet for small kids to play on (or for those to lazy to walk up the hill to the MBE  ). The other one is supposed to serve a small slope on the lower field below the hotel. However, I don't see it being very feasible.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> There will also be another new restaurant opening in the summer right next to the Pub Outback and Mike's Tiki Bar.


Yes, that is being developed by the former owners of Elements in St Johnsbury. So my guess is that will be a higher end restaurant which there is plenty of market room for in E Burke since the River Garden and Willy's closed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> There will also be another new restaurant opening in the summer right next to the Pub Outback and Mike's Tiki Bar.



Interesting. I don't think that I saw anyone in the River Garden's old spot....


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Those are "proposed" surface lifts. The short one is likely a short carpet for small kids to play on (or for those to lazy to walk up the hill to the MBE  ). The other one is supposed to serve a small slope on the lower field below the hotel. However, I don't see it being very feasible.



Wow, that is interesting.  Is the one downslope going to be for beginners/tubing?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, that is interesting.  Is the one downslope going to be for beginners/tubing?



Honestly I doubt it will ever go in. The slope of the hillside there is not good for that sort of thing (unless it gets regraded as part of the hotel construction).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting. I don't think that I saw anyone in the River Garden's old spot....



While the River Garden was in a good visible spot, the layout of the building (house) does not really make a very good restaurant. There is also the flood risk when the Dish Mill brook backs up at the bridge during ice jams.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

New aerial video of the hotel construction:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> New aerial video of the hotel construction:



Looking good, but better not tell q that they folded his banner in half!  05-:20)

:wink:


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## skifree (Nov 12, 2014)

Q drone. can't make this shit up


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Looking good, but better not tell q that they folded his banner in half!  05-:20)
> 
> :wink:



Probably so that welder that you could see didn't catch it on fire. (damn it, why did somebody not "forget" to fold it out of the way :razz


----------



## billski (Nov 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> LOL,  No, the newspaper article wasn't clear.  Yes, a new GM has been hired.  However he isn't schedule to start for several weeks.  At that time I'm sure his name will be announced.


  Some guy named Otten...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Probably so that welder that you could see didn't catch it on fire. (damn it, why did somebody not "forget" to fold it out of the way :razz



That's what I figured.  Hope he asked q permission first...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

billski said:


> Some guy named Otten...



No joke: the same day that the Burke article was in the Caledonian Record there was a big article about Balsam's moving ahead with their plans.  So that's the only thing in common between LBO and Burke.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 12, 2014)

billski said:


> Some guy named Otten...



If this thing head's south, that's not necessarily an unlikely possibility 4 or 5 years from now.


----------



## skifree (Nov 12, 2014)

Do the Q's ski.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2014)

skifree said:


> Do the Q's ski.



Little q telemarks. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Little q telemarks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


with a huge backpack most of the time.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

This is good news regarding the restaurant scene in East Burke.  I have always felt that since Willey's and the River Garden closed there was room for something decent.    The former owners of Elements have other careers, and they will need to be careful to be hands-on in order to monitor quality.  Things at Elements went downhill as the owners seemed to lose energy.

The Tamarack Grill has some challenges.  The biggest problem, IMHO, with the Tamarack Grill is the location.  The space feels very "ski lodge", and not in a good way.  This is fine for a bar and/or casual restaurant, but that's about it.  When the new hotel is open they will presumably have better space for a high end restaurant - but by then the competition may be well established.  

The other major challenge is the summer business.  The village has become a much more compelling location in the summer, especially with the Tiki Bar.  Severing ties with Kingdom Trails did not help.  Thanks to KT, the village is becoming much more of a destination.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 13, 2014)

In related news:
The Trout River Brewery is closed (as of Nov 1st).
Rumor is the people that are going to take over the Pub Outback location are also buying Trout River. Whether they are buying the entire business or simply the brewing equipment remains to be seen.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> In related news:
> The Trout River Brewery is closed (as of Nov 1st).
> Rumor is the people that are going to take over the Pub Outback location are also buying Trout River. Whether they are buying the entire business or simply the brewing equipment remains to be seen.


That would be VERY good news if it happens.  The Trout River location in Lyndon was pretty lousy and Burke would be a major improvement.

I heard, though, that the Pub Outback's facilities had really been neglected.  I hope that if this happens they put some money into renovations.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2014)

I have never stopped in east Burke when going to burke. Lyndon always seemed like a better location


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That would be VERY good news if it happens.  The Trout River location in Lyndon was pretty lousy and Burke would be a major improvement.
> 
> I heard, though, that the Pub Outback's facilities had really been neglected.  I hope that if this happens they put some money into renovations.



My thinking is they keep the brewery in Lyndonville since it is a good location for commercial traffic. Additionally, I don't think the shared septic system that the Pub Outback building is hooked up to in East Burke would be able to handle the output of a full scale brewery.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I have never stopped in east Burke when going to burke. Lyndon always seemed like a better location


Lyndon has LOTS of casual dining options.  This is both good and bad.  It's bad because there is precious little room for a new entrant.  A new restaurant has opened up in the former Vinny's location on Route 5.  I wish them luck, but it's a tough spot for a restaurant.  

The problem with being in East Burke is that there is NO reason to drive from Lyndon to Burke for casual dining, so you really are dependent on the people in Burke itself.  That makes it a tough business, and I think the business that can make the best go of it are places like the Tiki Bar and the Food Truck that can keep their overhead very low.  Burke's shorter than normal ski season does not help.  From mid-March through well into May it is a dead season.  The same can be said for early-November through mid-December.  It's hard for a business to absorb those dead periods.

On the other hand, for all of the casual restaurants that Lyndon has, they don't have anything that is remotely upscale.  So Burke could draw people from the Lyndon area for that type of dining.

I've always been underwhelmed by Juniper's, although I keep rooting for them.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I have never stopped in east Burke when going to burke. Lyndon always seemed like a better location



Same.  If I were looking to open a year round restaurant in that area, it would be in downtown Lyndonville and not up by the ski area.  I'd want my place to be where the year round population of people is. 

Burke the ski area is actually closer to downtown Lyndonville, than Stowe the ski area is from downtown Stowe.  Yet, in my few times through the area, there doesn't seem to be much of an association between the town of Lyndonville and the ski area of Burke.  Maybe there is, but Lyndonville doesn't "feel" like a town to take a vacation in.  I would think a nicer lodging facility and associated restaurant in the town of Lyndon would do just as much for that area as an on hill lodging facility.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

There was recently one chef who tried something slightly more upscale in Lyndon.  He was the owner of Timbuktu's.  He had some genuine talent.  And it went over like a lead balloon.  He had to dumb down the menu, and then he was just one of the herd.  The restaurant eventually closed.

I've never understood why there are so many casual restaurants in Lyndon, and also why nothing nicer has been able to make a go of it.

I do agree that Lyndon and East Burke feel entirely separated even though they are physically quite close.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

BTW, a really good choice for those heading to Burke Mountain is the Kingdom Taproom in St. Johnsbury.  It's well worth the short drive from the highway.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> BTW, a really good choice for those heading to Burke Mountain is the Kingdom Taproom in St. Johnsbury.  It's well worth the short drive from the highway.


+++1


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> There was recently one chef who tried something slightly more upscale in Lyndon.  He was the owner of Timbuktu's.  He had some genuine talent.  And it went over like a lead balloon.  He had to dumb down the menu, and then he was just one of the herd.  The restaurant eventually closed.
> 
> I've never understood why there are so many casual restaurants in Lyndon, and also why nothing nicer has been able to make a go of it.
> 
> I do agree that Lyndon and East Burke feel entirely separated even though they are physically quite close.



A place need not be high end fine dining and "adventurous" to be good.  The busiest restaurant in Stowe (by millions in revenue) is Piecasso.  The place is absolutely jammed and it's so much more than just a pizza place.  The chef they have has done all the high bro experimental type fine dining food in many places, but knows the market and what people want.  I bet a similar restaurant would kill it in Lyndonville.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I've never understood why there are so many casual restaurants in Lyndon, and also why nothing nicer has been able to make a go of it.



It's the market (or lack thereof).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> There was recently one chef who tried something slightly more upscale in Lyndon.  He was the owner of Timbuktu's.  He had some genuine talent.  And it went over like a lead balloon.  He had to dumb down the menu, and then he was just one of the herd.  The restaurant eventually closed.



I know that chef quite well and it is too bad it didn't work out for him. I had discussions with him about how many restaurants there are in the area and how hard it is to break into that market and be successful. 
IMHO, the biggest problem for "Upscale" in Lyndonville is there isn't a very large pool of upper middle class/upper class people in town. Most of the wealthier folks are in the surrounding towns (Danville, Newark, Burke). St Johnsbury has a pretty good base of wealthy that is made up of old money and new money (NVRH doctors,etc). Add to that the general tastes in Lyndonville tend to lean toward diner style foods and upscale struggles.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I've always been underwhelmed by Juniper's, although I keep rooting for them.



Juniper's and that whole operation have as of late had some serious issues related to a couple management decisions that got them some very bad press and embroiled them in at least two separate lawsuits.  Locals know what I am talking about.  It's too bad because they've been longtime members of the community and have invested a lot of money into the place.  And it was run pretty well.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2014)

this..."in Lyndonville is there isn't a very large pool of upper middle class/upper class people in town."


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> this..."in Lyndonville is there isn't a very large pool of upper middle class/upper class people in town."



Yep, exactly.  That is my point.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> In related news:
> *The Trout River Brewery is closed* (as of Nov 1st).



Not shocking.   Trout River beer was subpar, and it's getting tougher and tougher to get away with "subpar" beer these days with all the outstanding offerings and quality upstarts.

I'm looking at you, Long Trail Brewing Company.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2014)

It just dawned on me after looking at that logo 100 times that the circle around the bear thing is actually not a circle, but a 'Q'.

It's so barely visible/detectible as the letter 'Q' that it almost makes me wonder if they went with a local graphic design company that tried to minimize the 'Q' as much as possible. LOL


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2014)

Long Trail will be just fine.  I don't ever see them closing down. They are probably the largest "microbrewery" in New England next to Harpoon.  Some of their small batch brews are pretty darn good too.

 LT Ale while not first class, is an easy drinking every day Ale and I still buy it from time to time when I'm looking for a cheap six pack.  They at least price it accordingly.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It just dawned on me after looking at that logo 100 times that the circle around the bear thing is actually not a circle, but a 'Q'.


I have to confess that it took me several months to notice that as well.  Not that I am complaining.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 13, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not shocking.   Trout River beer was subpar, and it's getting tougher and tougher to get away with "subpar" beer these days with all the outstanding offerings and quality upstarts.
> 
> I'm looking at you, Long Trail Brewing Company.



In its heyday it was relatively good. Trout River was one of the first micro-brews that sprang up in the mid-90's. They had a solid product with Rainbow Red. They released some other pretty decent beers as well. However, the last couple of years the quality really started slipping. I think the owner just got tired of trying to keep up with the pack once the market started rounding out with, as you say, "quality upstarts" like Hill Farmstead.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 13, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> +++1



+++2  :beer:


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 13, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not shocking.   Trout River beer was subpar, and it's getting tougher and tougher to get away with "subpar" beer these days with all the outstanding offerings and quality upstarts.
> 
> I'm looking at you, Long Trail Brewing Company.




I'm with you on everything, but the LT Double Bag used to be my go to back in the day. Everything else was shit though.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Nov 13, 2014)

Sad about Trout River closing.  I was a big fan of Rainbow Red where I could find it on tap.  Never liked it out of the bottle for some reason though...


----------



## xwhaler (Nov 13, 2014)

The beer is not 1st rate by any means but about 3 yrs ago wife and I skied Burke for the 1st time and hit up Trout River on way up for beers/pizza. I liked the place quite a bit for the micro brewed beer and tasty pizza combination


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> The beer is not 1st rate by any means but about 3 yrs ago wife and I skied Burke for the 1st time and hit up Trout River on way up for beers/pizza. I liked the place quite a bit for the micro brewed beer and tasty pizza combination



Their pizza was exceptional.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Their pizza was exceptional.


I stopped going a long time ago because they allowed reservations in a pizza place.  We would sit around for half an hour while two out of every three tables had a "reserved" sign on them and nobody showed up to use them.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I stopped going a long time ago because they allowed reservations in a pizza place.  We would sit around for half an hour while two out of every three tables had a "reserved" sign on them and nobody showed up to use them.



And there were only 6 tables :razz:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2014)

(((((resists temptation to inject sheer pizza snobbery into thread))))


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> I'm with you on everything, but the LT Double Bag used to be my go to back in the day. Everything else was shit though.



I pretty much think everything they do is substantially overrated.  Especially the IPA, which is not even "fair", IMHO.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I pretty much think everything they do is substantially overrated.  Especially the IPA, which is not even "fair", IMHO.



Their Limbo was pretty good


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2014)

Does anyone know if Burke rents seasonal lockers in the Sherburne lodge?  I know someone who wanted a locker, but they aren't sure if it's a good idea to rent a locker up at Mid-Burke now that there is hardly any parking left.


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## mister moose (Nov 14, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> I'm with you on everything, but the LT Double Bag used to be my go to back in the day. Everything else was shit though.





BenedictGomez said:


> I pretty much think everything they do is substantially overrated.  Especially the IPA, which is not even "fair", IMHO.



I never had much use for the Hibernator or Pollenator.  The original generic IPA is entry level meh.  Blackberry Wheat is ok for what it is.  The Original LT Ale is a decent beer.  Double Bag is good.  They did a limited triple bag one year that was good.   Harvest is muddled.  

Much has changed in the last 2 years.

The Farmhouse series of IPAs is extremely worthwhile.  Great flavor, balance and nose, and while not world class, they are affordable big steps up from the generic IPAs that littered the landscape in the pre-Heady days.  They have done many impressive limited releases in their Brown Bag, Brush and Barrel, and Brewmaster series.  Limbo is very good.  They had a keg only beer summer of '13 called Mountain Jam, or something like that I thought was excellent.  They did a collaborative fresh hop flavored malted ice cream with Woodstock Creamery that was very good.  I haven't had the new Sick Day IPA yet, but will soon.

So if you judge Long Trail from what is on tap in Dover, St Johnsbury, or Ludlow, or what is in the cooler at your local liquor store, you aren't getting the whole story.  There's a lot of fresh ideas and good beer coming out of Bridgewater.  As well as the unremarkable standards.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Nov 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Juniper's and that whole operation have as of late had some serious issues related to a couple management decisions that got them some very bad press and embroiled them in at least two separate lawsuits.  Locals know what I am talking about.  It's too bad because they've been longtime members of the community and have invested a lot of money into the place.  And it was run pretty well.



Trailboss, is this speculation on your part? Whats the "second" issue- presume the no same sex marriage weddings was #1? I have always been a fan of Junipers, the beef from the farm next door and other local connections are great, and I have long admired the working family that ran the Inn. They are exceptional people. I agree that they made one very critical error, especially in Vermont, but do you know if that has impaired the viability of the business? My perception is its close relationship with Kingdom Trails has allowed it to continue with not much downturn. Too bad they actually violated a statute, I am for equality but have alot of respect for religious rights also.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss, is this speculation on your part? Whats the "second" issue- presume the no same sex marriage weddings was #1? I have always been a fan of Junipers, the beef from the farm next door and other local connections are great, and I have long admired the working family that ran the Inn. They are exceptional people. I agree that they made one very critical error, especially in Vermont, but do you know if that has impaired the viability of the business? My perception is its close relationship with Kingdom Trails has allowed it to continue with not much downturn. Too bad they actually violated a statute, I am for equality but have alot of respect for religious rights also.



Speculation, no not at all.  

They have been in two suits:  (1) the same sex marriage issue, and (2) their long bitter fight over erecting the illuminated cross.  The latter resulted in several years of litigation and an appeal to the Vermont Supreme Court.


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## Masskier (Nov 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Speculation, no not at all.
> 
> They have been in two suits:  (1) the same sex marriage issue, and (2) their long bitter fight over erecting the illuminated cross.  The latter resulted in several years of litigation and an appeal to the Vermont Supreme Court.



That really is a beautiful Chapel that he built and then pretty much gave to the community


----------



## Masskier (Nov 14, 2014)

On another note,  Burke is making snow tonight.  I think this may be the earliest that they have started.  Does anyone recall an earlier start date?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2014)

Good to hear.  Any rumblings of an earlier opening than initially announced?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

Wow!  That's great news!  Are they testing the new guns they got this week or is this for real?  If it's the former, you should have included that fact.  If it's the latter, hooray!


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## VTKilarney (Nov 15, 2014)

Their Facebook page says that "Team Beaverkill" was blowing snow still at 2:00 AM.  Still no word on whether it is a push to open earlier than scheduled.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Their Facebook page says that *"Team Beaverkill"*



WTH is the deal with this?

  It's either:

A) A reference to trapping/killing beaver
B) A reference to ******* women

Neither is a very intelligent name from a PR perspective.   

That said, I wasn't born yesterday and realize that snowmaking crews are normally virtually 100% men, and skew young.  It's obviously a sexual reference, and I'm guessing whoever runs Burke's social media campaign isn't a threat to cure cancer.  My guess is they'll say it has something to do with the Beaverkill river, which is not in Vermont, but come on......


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> WTH is the deal with this?
> 
> It's either:
> 
> ...



Take a wild guess who is doing the marketing.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 15, 2014)

I hear that food and beverage will now be known as "Team Pussyslayer".


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## the original trailboss (Nov 15, 2014)

*New Winter Guide in the Caledonian Record*

Q Burke since 1956 ????


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> Q Burke since 1956 ????



Seriously??!!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 15, 2014)

That won't help appease the locals.  


.


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## AdironRider (Nov 15, 2014)

Im pretty sure anyone who uses the term beaver sexually, and by default would be offended by it, are at least Benedicts age.


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## Cannonball (Nov 15, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Im pretty sure anyone who uses the term beaver sexually, and by default would be offended by it, are at least Benedicts age.



I don't know what that means. I assume by most of Benedicts posts (I.e. he knows everything) that he's 20-24. So what do you mean by "at least"?


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Nov 15, 2014)

laugh if this is stupid... Is there any chance that "Beaverkill" was a facetious implication that their snowmaking system is powerful enough to empty the sourcepond(s), ruining the beaver's habitit and thus... killing them?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> Q Burke since 1956 ????



That's awful.  Where was this published?


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 15, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I don't know what that means. I assume by most of Benedicts posts (I.e. he knows everything) that he's 20-24. So what do you mean by "at least"?



If I was to wager, I would argue the opposite and he's at least 50.


----------



## skifree (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYDfwUJzYQg


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> If I was to wager, I would argue the opposite and he's at least 50.



Only a 20 something know it all would place that bet.........


----------



## Cannonball (Nov 16, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> If I was to wager, I would argue the opposite and he's at least 50.



I'll take that wager. Let's put it this way.... Bet he's closer to 20 than 50.  
Once you get past 25 you start realizing you might not be the authority on everything.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2014)

Looks like Burke is blowing snow for real.  Well done!


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I hear that food and beverage will now be known as "Team Pussyslayer".



LOL



Cannonball said:


> I don't know what that means. I assume by most of Benedicts posts (I.e. he knows everything) that he's 20-24. So what do you mean by "at least"?



Your psychological profile is ideologically perfect.  So angry. 



skifastr said:


> laugh if this is stupid... Is there any chance that "Beaverkill" was a facetious implication that their snowmaking system is powerful enough to empty the sourcepond(s), ruining the beaver's habitit and thus... killing them?



I think you're way over-thinking it, though that would be an ingenious backup plan if anyone ever did ask them what it means.  They should go with that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If they ever get the aquatic center built, I think we all know what the divers will be called.   


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If they ever get the aquatic center built, I think we all know what the divers will be called.
> 
> 
> .



The pool has been ordered.  It is a Q shape.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2014)

Just saw some pics from Burke.  This one struck me as odd because the Hotel seems to be largely in the same state as it was three weeks ago:







Granted we know that they are doing a lot of work in the basement (that you can't see).  Are they planning on doing anything more this winter on the upper levels or are they hanging it up for now?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Just saw some pics from Burke.  *This one struck me as odd *because the Hotel seems to be largely in the same state as it was three weeks ago:



What is that supposed to be?  Whatever it is is just barely going.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Granted we know that they are doing a lot of work in the basement (that you can't see).  Are they planning on doing anything more this winter on the upper levels or are they hanging it up for now?


If you look at the Webcam, you can see that they are putting up plywood to the left of this image.  The plywood was visible in the recent drone film that was released.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> What is that supposed to be?  Whatever it is is just barely going.



Yes, I will have to post my pics.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Just saw some pics from Burke.  This one struck me as odd because the Hotel seems to be largely in the same state as it was three weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



they are busy with installing the wood framing on the other half.  All of the avantec that you saw in the drone video is up.


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## burski (Nov 17, 2014)

Local rumors are that Q Jr has tapped one of his military "buddies" (with no apparent ski resort background) to be the new GM, apparently this guy is going around the resort shadowing different departments at Q's direction but has no title...  Q has had other military "buddies" that he tried to bring on in different departments that have not lasted - they couldn't deal with him.  It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.. stay tuned for an announcement in a couple of months:idea:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2014)

burski said:


> Local rumors are that Q Jr has tapped one of his military "buddies" (with no apparent ski resort background) to be the new GM,


So are they going to close the lifts at 16:00?

Sarcasm aside, I have a LOT of respect for our military leaders.  They do a DAMN fine job.  They do this because they have honed their style of leadership to carry out their mission.  Protocol and chain of command are tremendously important in the military, and this is drilled into its leaders.

The question that remains to be answered is whether or not military based leadership skills are best suited for the management of a recreational facility.  I don't claim to know enough about the ski industry to be able to answer that question.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2014)

burski said:


> Local rumors are that Q Jr has tapped one of his military "buddies" (with no apparent ski resort background) to be the new GM, apparently this guy is going around the resort shadowing different departments at Q's direction but has no title...  Q has had other military "buddies" that he tried to bring on in different departments that have not lasted - they couldn't deal with him.  It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.. stay tuned for an announcement in a couple of months:idea:



It's like we're seeing the same bad movie over and over again.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2014)

Q Burke just posted some photos of today's snow on their Facebook page.  

Someone posted this comment:
_great stuff. How much snow will it take to cover up the Q?_

You would think that a marketing director would either ignore the comment or say something to the effect of: "We are sorry that you don't approve of our name change, but whatever we are called, we are committed to providing the best possible skiing experience for our valued customers.  We hope that you will visit us and see just how committed we are."

Q-Burke didn't go that route.  Here is their response:
_Thanks for the comment Dennis! We don't think it will take much to cover up the Q, however, next time your down here, it would be our pleasure to give you a shovel so that you can try your best to cover it up! Good Luck..._


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2014)

The most offensive part of that response is the lack of proofreading.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted some photos of today's snow on their Facebook page.
> 
> Someone posted this comment:
> _great stuff. How much snow will it take to cover up the Q?_
> ...


I think it's  actually pretty funny!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I think it's  actually pretty funny!



Me too. There is double meaning in the phrase "cover up the Q". The response is aimed at the less obvious meaning.


----------



## Boston Bulldog (Nov 18, 2014)

Sorry, I've never been to Burke before and I don't know much about it, but why is the "Q" there in the first place?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 18, 2014)

The owner's last name is Quiros


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## VTKilarney (Nov 18, 2014)

They still have nothing posted under the "Specials and Deals" section of their website.  When do they normally post those?  I'm anxious to see if they continue the Sunday afternoon lift ticket promotion.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 18, 2014)

The new Website should be out in the next couple of weeks


----------



## burski (Nov 18, 2014)

Masskier said:


> The new Website should be out in the next couple of weeks



Are you telling me that a ski area going into a ski season with a ton of stuff going on will not have their website done until December for the ski season?????  They will have their summer site up until that time (its actually not even the summer site as there are still references to the hotel project starting in June on it...) - this is great marketing, I am sure they are saving a ton of money, and think of how well this will work for (early) no not early, becuase that is done  - at this point how about regular season booking... well done Q.:beer:


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2014)

burski said:


> Are you telling me that a ski area going into a ski season with a ton of stuff going on will not have their website done until December for the ski season?????  They will have their summer site up until that time (its actually not even the summer site as there are still references to the hotel project starting in June on it...) - this is great marketing, I am sure they are saving a ton of money, and think of how well this will work for (early) no not early, becuase that is done  - at this point how about regular season booking... well done Q.:beer:



Not surprising considering that he has fired almost the entire staff (management at least) and can't find replacements for them.


----------



## Edd (Nov 18, 2014)

Boston Bulldog said:


> why is the "Q" there in the first place?



Mmm, what a great question. Why, indeed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2014)

Boston Bulldog said:


> why is the "Q" there in the first place?



Egotism.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2014)

burski said:


> Are you telling me that *a ski area going into a ski season with a ton of stuff going on will not have their website done until December for the ski season??*???  They will have their summer site up until that time (its actually not even the summer site as there are still references to the hotel project starting in June on it...) -* this is great marketing, I am sure they are saving a ton of money*, and think of how well this will work for (early) no not early, becuase that is done  - at this point how about regular season booking... well done Q.



It's complete incompetence from a business perspective.  Frankly, they shouldn't even be doing this work internally.  It should be outsourced to a small web marketing company that does this sort of thing fairly cheaply.   Or maybe it already is and they need to fire them?  Either way, yeah, you're right, for November 18th that's pretty bad.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2014)

What are the odds that www.skiburke.com is replaced with www.Qburke.com for this new website?
Changing your web address this late in the season would probably be a bad idea.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> What are the odds that www.skiburke.com is replaced with www.Qburke.com for this new website?
> Changing your web address this late in the season would probably be a bad idea.



I'd sure hope not for a number of reasons...not the least of which is that all of their marketing now lists SkiBurke.com.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> *What are the odds that www.skiburke.com is replaced with www.Qburke.com for this new website?*
> Changing your web address this late in the season would probably be a bad idea.



Slim to none given Qburke.com redirects to a Quinn Burke's professional photography website (nicely done BTW). 

  skiQburke.com is currently available though.

EDIT:  Was available.   I just bought it.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Slim to none given Qburke.com redirects to a Quinn Burke's professional photography website (nicely done BTW).
> 
> skiQburke.com is currently available though.
> 
> EDIT:  Was available.   I just bought it.



:lol:


----------



## WoodCore (Nov 18, 2014)

Team Beaverkill Logo!


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 18, 2014)

Masskier said:


> The new Website should be out in the next couple of weeks


They updated their lift ticket prices for this winter, so the new website coming out appears to have nothing to do with their ability to update the "specials" section of the same webpage that has the lift ticket prices.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They updated their lift ticket prices for this winter, so the new website coming out appears to have nothing to do with their ability to update the "specials" section of the same webpage that has the lift ticket prices.



True Q skiers don't need specials; only mere mortals demand specials.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 18, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:  Was available.   I just bought it.



You may end up making money off of this !  They might offer a free dinner with Ary to get the domain name.


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## Not Sure (Nov 18, 2014)

WoodCore said:


> Team Beaverkill Logo!



Dagget and Norbert........"Angry Beavers" was the show my older kids used to watch it years ago. Might be on Netflix
Halloween episode nearly peed my pants.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> *You may end up making money off of this! *



I was shocked it was available.   I mean, the NAME of your ski resort is QBurke, not Burke, so why on earth is your website still skiburke rather than skiqburke? That makes no sense.  

All your other branding is QBurke, yet you have Burke for your web address?  Huh? Very confusing for your customers.  I set an auto-renew calendar reminder so I will keep renewing it so it cant expire.  

Maybe a few years from now someone from Jay Peak/QBurke's marketing department will contact me.  I wouldn't even be greedy about it.  They can have it for free.  All I'd ask for in exchange is lifetime skiing for me and my spouse, which, given I life in New Jersey would probably only amount to about 12 comped lift tickets per year!


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Multiple references to "Team Beaverkill" on their Facebook page today.  Some of the crew is new to snowmaking.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Team Beaverkill hard at work:


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Team Beaverkill hard at work:
> 
> View attachment 14361



Unlike last year when it was below freezing for two weeks straight in November, at least they're making snow :flame:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Unlike last year when it was below freezing for two weeks straight in November, at least they're making snow :flame:



That is excellent news for sure.  


.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2014)

Maybe that's what I should do with the skiqburke.com website.

  A picture of Burke Mountain with lots of various beaver pictures Photoshopped into the background.


----------



## billski (Nov 19, 2014)




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## zeke (Nov 19, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Maybe that's what I should do with the skiqburke.com website.
> 
> A picture of Burke Mountain with lots of various beaver pictures Photoshopped into the background.



or you could just keep track of all of the discrepancies, changing stories, obvious lies, one-sided tales and overall insanity that is coming out of that place anymore. for example:

in CalRec Ary: no need to make snow until Dec 22. (which was stupid in the first place)
FB: Team Beaverkill is blowing snow all over the mountain.

Ary: We're fully staffed 
ski burke.com: 17 job openings including most management positions and others that have multiple people in the same role (wait staff, ski instructors, etc)

MassSkier: The excellent FnB director from Jay is here now. 
(we come to find out that, not surprisingly, he quit)
MassSkier:   -----------       

Ary: if you don't do an exceptional job here, you will be replaced.
ARy Sr.: good job son, keep doing what you're doing–it's working.

those are off the top of my head without reading back in the forum at all. sure, maybe it's too negative, but you'd never run out of new content.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 19, 2014)

zeke said:


> or you could just keep track of all of the discrepancies, changing stories, obvious lies, one-sided tales and overall insanity that is coming out of that place anymore. for example:
> 
> in CalRec Ary: no need to make snow until Dec 22. (which was stupid in the first place)
> FB: Team Beaverkill is blowing snow all over the mountain.
> ...




That's because the bulk of the information isn't coming from the mountain but from this thread and most of it is just rumors. 

 Obviously Ary was misquoted or misunderstood in the Cal record.  They started making snow on 11/14 which is probably the earliest Burke has ever started.  They learned their lesson last year.

and Mark Castro (chef from Jay) hasn't quit.  He is still there and doing an excellent job.  I see him every week.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

All but one of the items quoted above are from sources other than this forum or are from you.  

I don't think that Ary was misquoted.  My bet is that he screwed up with what he said but that the quote was accurate.   

Masskier, are you saying that they are fully staffed and that their webpage is out of date?  I know they at least have a trained medic on staff now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

I seem to recall that Q Burke is contractually obligated to make a certain amount of snow on the training hill by Thanksgiving (was it 24 inches?). 

Is that indeed the case and, if so, is Team Beaverkill blowing snow on the training hill yet?


.


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## burski (Nov 19, 2014)

_"They started making snow on 11/14 which is probably the earliest Burke has ever started.  They learned their lesson last year."_

Mass Skier if you are as informed as you claim to be you know this is rubbish - lets have some integrity and not try to rewrite history - the year before Q came in 2012 they made snow starting on Nov 8.  Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times, as I am sure you must be aware they are contractually obligated to make snow on the training hill or they can be fined, in order to do that for late November / early December they have always traditionally started in Mid November.  I see you're fully on board with Q's revisionist history...


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2014)

zeke said:


> or you could just keep track of all of the discrepancies, changing stories, obvious lies, one-sided tales and overall insanity that is coming out of that place anymore........those are off the top of my head without reading back in the forum at all. sure, maybe it's too negative, but you'd never run out of new content.



LOL.  While that might be amusing, it's a bit mean spirited.  People love the place, it's not like I wish any harm on them.


----------



## zeke (Nov 19, 2014)

Masskier said:


> That's because the bulk of the information isn't coming from the mountain but from this thread and most of it is just rumors.
> 
> Obviously Ary was misquoted or misunderstood in the Cal record.  They started making snow on 11/14 which is probably the earliest Burke has ever started.  They learned their lesson last year.
> 
> and Mark Castro (chef from Jay) hasn't quit.  He is still there and doing an excellent job.  I see him every week.






MassSkier-sorry if offended you in some way by mentioning you in the post. my intention was not to hurt anyone’s feelings, but to point out the constant disconnect between what is said and what is reality. and i stand by each of those statements (except the last, i’ve never spoken to ary sr but as he continues to allow his spawn to f-up everything he touches and burn most bridges i take as a soft approval)

the rest though, i stand by–none are rumors.

the ca record thing may have been a misquote or misspeak-i dont know, you don’t know. we weren’t at the interview but what was stated is the record until i see a retraction, so the assumption there is 100% on your part. 

by the way, your position that this is the earliest they’ve blown snow ever is just plain wrong. ask anyone who used to work there when it was run by people with experience–i’m sure you see them in town–and they’ll tell you that that is patently wrong. (as they did me when i asked them last week)

glad the chef at Jay is there and you’re enjoying his cooking, but i was talking about the FnB that you were touting and then never mentioned again when asked pointedly. he is not currently employed at burke, correct? if so, you should tell them to update the site and take that job posting down.

which brings me to the “fully staffed” quote.another misquote? doubtful. out and out lie? probable

so if there’s something i’m missing please enlighten me. it would be great if someone as in the know as you would shed light on what’s really going on up there instead of just showing the sunny side and smiling through the pain while you try to convince the rest of us the little emperor is, in fact, wearing new clothes.


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## Masskier (Nov 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> All but one of the items quoted above are from sources other than this forum or are from you.
> 
> I don't think that Ary was misquoted.  My bet is that he screwed up with what he said but that the quote was accurate.
> 
> Masskier, are you saying that they are fully staffed and that their webpage is out of date?  I know they at least have a trained medic on staff now.



No,  I am saying that Ary planned on making snow much earlier this year.  Hence they started on 11/14


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

That didn't answer my question.  Were they fully staffed or not when Ary declared so?


.


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## Masskier (Nov 19, 2014)

burski said:


> _"They started making snow on 11/14 which is probably the earliest Burke has ever started.  They learned their lesson last year."_
> 
> Mass Skier if you are as informed as you claim to be you know this is rubbish - lets have some integrity and not try to rewrite history - the year before Q came in 2012 they made snow starting on Nov 8.  Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times, as I am sure you must be aware they are contractually obligated to make snow on the training hill or they can be fined, in order to do that for late November / early December they have always traditionally started in Mid November.  I see you're fully on board with Q's revisionist history...



Soo,  Yes lets have some integrity,  You said "Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times"    When ???  I have never known Burke to open in early November.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Soo,  Yes lets have some integrity,  You said "Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times"    When ???  I have never known Burke to open in early November.



Will you either answer my question or just admit that you are refusing to answer it.


.


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## burski (Nov 19, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Soo,  Yes lets have some integrity,  You said "Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times"    When ???  I have never known Burke to open in early November.



You are correct, I doubt they have ever opened in early November, that was a mistake on my part and worded incorrectly, but they definitely have made snow in early November many times - I think a few of us on this site are calling you out on that.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

How refreshing to see somebody show integrity by acknowledging an inaccurate statement.


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## Masskier (Nov 19, 2014)

zeke said:


> MassSkier-sorry if offended you in some way by mentioning you in the post. my intention was not to hurt anyone’s feelings, but to point out the constant disconnect between what is said and what is reality. and i stand by each of those statements (except the last, i’ve never spoken to ary sr but as he continues to allow his spawn to f-up everything he touches and burn most bridges i take as a soft approval)
> 
> the rest though, i stand by–none are rumors.
> 
> ...



Agreed,  there is a huge disconnect from what is being discussed in this thread and what is really going on at the mountain.  The reason I said there was a misquote or misunderstanding on the snow making quote, is that I spoke to Ary and Jason weeks ago so I knew their snow making plans for the year.  And they certainly were not going to wait to 12/22 to start making snow.  I think that is kind of obvious.

As far as whether Burke has made snow before 11/14, It's got to be one of the earliest starts,  I had asked in an earlier post whether anyone remembered them starting earlier and no one responded.   I can only speak as to when BMA took over in 2000 and I became involved and I don't recall Burke making snow earlier.  

As far as FnB, Yes, they brought a couple of new chefs over from Jay back in August.  And they have made some nice improvements at the Tamarack.  Originally one was going to assumed the responsibility of FnB manager for the resort.  However it is my understanding that instead he is going to focus on the Tamarack and start the planing for the new restaurant in the Hotel,  While they continue to accept applications for FnB.

Fully Staffed,  Certainly there has been lots of turnover, no question about that.  But most of the key positions that they want filled are spoken for.  He can operate with the staff he has now, and he will continue to build his team over the next 2-3 years.  It's not like the place is empty or anything like that.  Some would have you believe that there is nobody working there.  That is the farthest from the truth.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

So if "most" of the key positions were filled, they were not fully staffed. Thank you for confirming that Ary did not truthfully describe the staffing situation at the mountain - unless his business plan was to forego a marketing director, guest services manager, senior IT director, and food and beverage manager - among other positions.  But they do have a trained medic!

At least we know that everyone is happy.  That accounts for something.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Ary is going to be furious when he finds out that somebody beat him to the beverage market.  




.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Soo,  Yes lets have some integrity,  You said "Burke has opened and made snow early in November numerous times"    When ???  I have never known Burke to open in early November.



Burke opened right before Thanksgiving in 1996 or 1997 due to its newly updated snowmaking system.  They made snow pretty early that year...I don't know what constitutes "early November", but I did ski the Poma on Thanksgiving weekend if not the one before.  Historically they tried to get open the first or second weekend of December back then.  They pushed it back a bit with Burke2000 and Ginn/LaBurski.  

And as to the claim that the head of F&B has not been fired, unless we are talking about two different people the claim that he is still there is not true.  As I mentioned, he found out that he was fired when his job was advertised....in fact it still is:  http://skiburke.com/jobs/


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

I recall that Masskier has yet to answer another question - whether or not a hotel subcontractor has failed to be paid in a timely manner. What say you, Masskier?


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 19, 2014)

i highly enjoy keeping tabs on this thread, it's entertaining.

Here we are, november 19th and a) the hotel is being built, b) snow is being blown, c) the social media marketing machine is blaring, albeit with some weird messages about Beaverkill, etc. but at least they're communicating with their customers. And not making the massive PR blunders they were about a year ago this time (at least I dont think so, besides some technicalities people point out that I dont think anyone else is keeping tabs on).

And here we are, november 19th, and the message board is madder than ever. Sure, downsizing is painful. From what I heard, with roughly the same amount of skier visits last year, Q I was told (as hairbrainy as they seem) cut ALOT (I know number but won't report) of costs from the operating budget. So, that's a A BIG profit improvement over the year before. So, they perhaps are not filling a bunch of positions. How important are these positions? To me, they are important but there are people who will pop into these positions once the mountain is open. I never looked at a mountain after opening day, even in the best economy, and said, boy they just can't find employees. If that were the case, I'd volunteer to help out, and I'm sure many others would too. After all, we are a community, right? Who knows, maybe Q would 'fire' his volunteers. Is that what people really think?

So, I dont get the deep vitriol, perhaps some feelings have been hurt and the 'way it used to be' is no longer. But I honestly, even with the addition of Q, can't say the mountain is any worse off now than it has been in the last 10 years, and it may be in better shape with the hotel and the other elements of life that are happening at/in and around (Q) Burke. People are so upset, but I'll enjoy the skiing this winter (almost private mid-week -- shhh), and the apres ski at the bear den, and you're welcome to join me. And the year after that, I'll enjoy being in the lobby of the new hotel hanging out, it looks like it will be a great space. 

So, I'll get off my soapbox now, but wanted to add those thoughts to the conversation....see you on ~Nov 29 (just a hunch) for opening day.


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## Jerry (Nov 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> (almost private mid-week -- shhh)



LOL.  That is the 'way it used to be'.  I'm sure the hotel will change that.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> And here we are, november 19th, and the message board is madder than ever.


Who is mad?  I don't see that much has changed.  People are absolutely perplexed by decisions management has made, but don't confuse that with anger. 



SkiRaceParent said:


> Sure, downsizing is painful. From what I heard, with roughly the same amount of skier visits last year, Q I was told (as hairbrainy as they seem) cut ALOT (I know number but won't report) of costs from the operating budget. So, that's a A BIG profit improvement over the year before.


 They didn't turn a profit last year.  Is your point that their primary strategy is to cut costs rather than to increase revenues?  That would explain trimming staff I suppose.



SkiRaceParent said:


> So, they perhaps are not filling a bunch of positions.


So they are advertising positions that they don't intend to fill?  That's an odd management decision, for sure.



SkiRaceParent said:


> So, I dont get the deep vitriol.


There isn't any.  No need for hyperbole.



SkiRaceParent said:


> But I honestly, even with the addition of Q, can't say the mountain is any worse off now than it has been in the last 10 years.


Time will tell.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 19, 2014)

Jerry said:


> LOL.  That is the 'way it used to be'.  I'm sure the hotel will change that.



I'll take the extra ~200 people (of which most prob wont ski much or will down in the lower mountain) in exchange for a mountain operation that will be around in the future.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Let's get the subcontractors paid and the hotel built before we count guests.  Crossing my fingers...


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## Scruffy (Nov 19, 2014)

I think we need to change the name of this site to Qalpinezone. 224 pages for a piss ant hill! Give it a rest.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 19, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> i highly enjoy keeping tabs on this thread, it's entertaining.
> 
> Here we are, november 19th and a) the hotel is being built, b) snow is being blown, c) the social media marketing machine is blaring, albeit with some weird messages about Beaverkill, etc. but at least they're communicating with their customers. And not making the massive PR blunders they were about a year ago this time (at least I dont think so, besides some technicalities people point out that I dont think anyone else is keeping tabs on).
> 
> ...



Well said.  Things are shaping up to be a great start to an early season.  Hopefully mother nature will continue to cooperate.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

Masskier, I'm still awaiting an answer on the subcontractor question.  Thanks.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2014)

Yet another season pass promotion has been posted on Burke's Facebook page:
_Call in the customer service today (11/20/2014) until 4:30PM to purchase your adult season pass at $699! We're throwing back the price by $200, but you have to call in by 4:30! (802) 626-7300_

And, BTW, Masskier, I'm still awaiting an answer for my question.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 20, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And, BTW, Masskier, I'm still awaiting an answer for my question.



Let it go. 







Do you seriously think anyone closely connected with the mountain think it would be a good idea to entertain publicly answering a question regarding something like that?

Say there was a payment withheld from a contractor. Maybe it was withheld due to a dispute over the job that was done. Of course both sides in a scenario like that will claim they are in the right.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2014)

If he doesn't want to answer it, that's fine.  He just hasn't indicated one way or the other.


----------



## zeke (Nov 20, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I'll take the extra ~200 people (of which most prob wont ski much or will down in the lower mountain) in exchange for a mountain operation that will be around in the future.



so your position is that most people staying at a hotel on a ski mountain will not ski at all or only ski the handful of greens?

not sure what's more delusional, that or the idea that these Qlowns will be around in the future.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I'll take the extra ~200 people (of which most prob wont ski much or will down in the lower mountain) in exchange for a mountain operation that will be around in the future.


Wherever and however the hotel guests ski, I have always maintained that the hotel is an important component in making the mountain profitable.  I fully recognize that profitability is key to long term survival.  Change needed to happen.  While I am quick to point out when change is counterproductive, it's only fair that change for the better is recognized.


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## freeski (Nov 20, 2014)

zeke said:


> so your position is that most people staying at a hotel on a ski mountain will not ski at all or only ski the handful of greens?
> 
> not sure what's more delusional, that or the idea that these Qlowns will be around in the future.


Qlowns, Qlowns... That's some very funny stuff. Qlowns, very nice Zeke.


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## troy (Nov 20, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Yet another season pass promotion has been posted on Burke's Facebook page:
> _Call in the customer service today (11/20/2014) until 4:30PM to purchase your adult season pass at $699! We're throwing back the price by $200, but you have to call in by 4:30! (802) 626-7300_
> 
> And, BTW, Masskier, I'm still awaiting an answer for my question.



i think burke's cool and all but $900 bucks for a pass?? huh, what they smokin over there?  even $700 is a rip off, that place is tiny and gets no snow, then again most of ne doesnt get much either...  good luck folks gonna stick west side


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 20, 2014)

zeke said:


> so your position is that most people staying at a hotel on a ski mountain will not ski at all or only ski the handful of greens?
> 
> not sure what's more delusional, that or the idea that these Qlowns will be around in the future.



I read the hotel will have 116 rooms. From there, I estimate 200 people will ski per day (almost 2 per room on average), so I assume most people there will in fact ski...who perhaps weren't going to be there anyway if the hotel wasn't built (assuming it was still open). To me, that's not a big # and won't impact lift lines etc. except around the margin. Also, I would bet the hotel will attract more families and novices than those that already frequent Burke, hence the Green/Sherburne comment.

Look, we are all in agreement on the Q and we will need to see about the future. They own it now, have significant backing and I would guess will give the hotel 3-4 years at least to see how it shifts skier visits, before they would opt to sell.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 20, 2014)

Am I wrong in being skeptical that Burke will ever be able to routinely come close to filling 116 hotel rooms?   

Holidays, sure, but other than that?


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## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I wrong in being skeptical that Burke will ever be able to routinely come close to filling 116 hotel rooms?
> 
> Holidays, sure, but other than that?



+1


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I wrong in being skeptical that Burke will ever be able to routinely come close to filling 116 hotel rooms?
> 
> Holidays, sure, but other than that?



Depending on the pricing. I'll guess that outside of the holidays there will be some DEEP discounts.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2014)

Post 2252.  Amazing.  And people say that nobody is interested in Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Am I wrong in being skeptical that Burke will ever be able to routinely come close to filling 116 hotel rooms?
> 
> Holidays, sure, but other than that?



I think with some "changes" I think they could have a good sustainable market.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 20, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> *Depending on the pricing. *I'll guess that outside of the holidays *there will be some DEEP discounts.*



Sure, but that's not good.  Fire sales move goods & services, but it's tough to hit profitibility that way, and tougher to sustain quality.

Granted, profitability is less a concern with "free money", but long-term hotels aren't cheap to run properly.  Hopefully they really do a great job with marketing and prove use wrong.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

I don't think that 116 rooms is at all unreasonable.  Unlike many other ski resorts, there is minimal competition for beds in the Burke area.  Burke is not far from Montreal, either.  

The three concerns that I have are:
1) Whether or not Jay Peak will prove to be too much competition for Burke;
2) Whether or not they can get through the slow seasons.  From mid-March until well into May it's extremely quiet in Burke.  The same is true for November through mid-December.  Those periods add up.
3) Whether bicyclists will embrace the hotel given the tensions between Kingdom Trails and the mountain - and the shift of biking activity to the Darling Hill Inn.

But we are not talking some massive hotel here.  I can see it appealing to lots of families that want all of the creature comforts without the crowds.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 21, 2014)

I think group business is the key to that hotel's success.  At its size it needs to have a ballroom that can hold at least 250 for dinner and is dividable for breakout sessions.   

Banquet and Conference business is how hotels in VT ski towns survive slow midweeks and off seasons.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 21, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think with some "changes" I think they could have a good sustainable market.



2000 of them are from just 4 people


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> 3) Whether bicyclists will embrace the hotel given the tensions between Kingdom Trails and the mountain - and the shift of biking activity to the Darling Hill Inn.



At the Boston Ski show Burke and Kingdom Trails shared a booth. They seem to be getting along much better now.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> At the Boston Ski show Burke and Kingdom Trails shared a booth. They seem to be getting along much better now.


That is very good news.  I don't think there is any question at this point that Q Burke is better off having KT as a partner.  Lots of activity was shifted to the Darling Inn area, which cannot have been a good thing for Q Burke.


----------



## xwhaler (Nov 21, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> 2000 of them are from just 4 people



+1     I'm sure some of the issues mentioned in this thread countless times are real but as a casual observer it seems that Burke is trending in the right direction. I hope to get up there for a day this season and if I do I'm sure the actual on snow ski experience will be just as great as it was last yr when I visited.
I stay out of the politics as I'm not that familiar with Burke---my only connection to the mountain is the 3 days I've skied there....all 3 days being great from the snow to the lifts to the food in the Tamarack Grill.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> 2000 of them are from just 4 people


Spoken by someone who must not know the local community.


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## Smellytele (Nov 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Spoken by someone who must not know the local community.



Well you must have 1000 post in this thread then there is from_the NEK, Thetrailboss with masskier and skiraceparent sprinkled in for a few 1000.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Well you must have 1000 post in this thread then there is from_the NEK, Thetrailboss with masskier and skiraceparent sprinkled in for a few 1000.


I'm not sure what your point is.  Are you aware of what the local community thinks or not?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Well you must have 1000 post in this thread then there is from_the NEK, Thetrailboss with masskier and skiraceparent sprinkled in for a few 1000.


This thread had 906 posts prior to my first post.  I'm willing to bet that I am not responsible for "at least" 73.6% of the posts in this thread since I first commented.  But if that's what you want to believe, no need to let facts get in the way.  If your comment was a thinly veiled attempt at censorship, I'd prefer to let the moderators handle those issues.


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## Smellytele (Nov 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This thread had 906 posts prior to my first post.  I'm willing to bet that I am not responsible for "at least" 73.6% of the posts in this thread since I first commented.  But if that's what you want to believe, no need to let facts get in the way.  If your comment was a thinly veiled attempt at censorship, I'd prefer to let the moderators handle those issues.



You are comical and looking for some weird Internet fight where there is none. Take a chill pill and I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "Spoken by someone who must not know the local community" All I said was that most of the post. I didn't fucking count them and calculate the percentage of your post. All I know is that it seems that you have posted the majority of the post in this thread. I am not for you or against you. Take a deep breath and void yourself of this internet anger.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 21, 2014)




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## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2014)

I may end up selling skiqburke.com to VTKilarney.   He can run his own QBurke parody site.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 21, 2014)

Last weekend...


Burke Behind the Fence by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I may end up selling skiqburke.com to VTKilarney.   He can run his own QBurke parody site.



Frankly, it's the people who disingenuously insist that everything is wine and roses that get me wound up.  If the discussion was candid I would be much more mellow.  


.


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## Masskier (Nov 21, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Last weekend...
> 
> 
> Burke Behind the Fence by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Awesome shot!!


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## Big Wave Dave (Nov 21, 2014)

isnt Ary is on record saying he thinks the hotel will be more of a draw in the summer. Was somewhere in the Cal Record.

and I am a local, more a Jay skier but very excited about the future of Burke and frankly, after so many failed owners, I feel that they are on their best footing ever. The mountain has always been a financial wreck, from Kitchel to Ginn. No one has injected capital and excitement to Burke like the Quiros's have. No one. We have all acknowledged massive missteps by the new owners, trepidation over EB-5.. but really, the pessimism on this thread is, IMHO, not warranted.

For what its worth my understanding from certain RE brokers is high demand for rental condo's for the winter.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> isnt Ary is on record saying he thinks the hotel will be more of a draw in the summer. Was somewhere in the Cal Record.


That is why I think the hotel is very viable.  Burke has a thriving summer business.  So long as Q Burke has a good relationship with the biking community, they should do fine.  I've heard it said that bicyclists don't want to spend money on lodging, but they have to stay somewhere.  



Big Wave Dave said:


> For what its worth my understanding from certain RE brokers is high demand for rental condo's for the winter.


That would not surprise me one bit.  Burke had a very good finish to the season last year thanks to mother nature, so I see no reason why demand would have dropped.  The market for condos, however, appears to have some pressure - at least in certain parts.  I've been told that the top-end condos are not closing for nearly what they used to get.  Hopefully my source was mistaken about that.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2014)

Big Wave Dave said:


> and I am a local, more a Jay skier but very excited about the future of Burke and frankly, after so many failed owners, I feel that they are on their best footing ever. The mountain has always been a financial wreck, from Kitchel to Ginn. No one has injected capital and excitement to Burke like the Quiros's have. No one. We have all acknowledged massive missteps by the new owners, trepidation over EB-5.. but really, the pessimism on this thread is, IMHO, not warranted.



Well....

Except for the hotel, that is not done yet, Q has not done much. A certain angel investor has done A LOT for the mountain...with one if not two HSQ's and money for operations and snowmaking work. Honestly the reason why Burke is where it is right now is due to about 18 years of improvements that have added up to where it is. What they needed was more beds and a good marketing and management team. I'd say progress in one area and a MAJOR regression in the other. And having a hotel will NOT magically fix the major management issues. We can hope that the "airplane factory" opens soon....


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## Masskier (Nov 21, 2014)

Speaking of Condos

Yes, the Condo rentals are very strong this year.  Most of the seasonal rentals were gone in August.  And there is a lot of demand for short term rentals.

The Condo market continues to improve.  The strongest demand is by far in the high end Condos.  There's been lots of sales and deposits in the past 12 months.  And prices are certainly on the rise.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Hmm...  The Bear Path townhomes used to be offered starting at $950,000.  (Source: Http://www.nehomemag.com/sites/nehomemag.com/files/images/7/mountainsideliving.pdf) 

They are now being offered starting at $450,000.   (Source: http://bearpathtownhomes.com )

Comparing the same size unit (2,526 square feet), the offering price is $250,000 less than it had been.  I didn't realize that it had been even less.  My real estate agent friends were not aware of that either.  They were under the impression that the high end condos have not bounced back and that a lot of original purchasers (one or more of whom underwrote the project) are still very much in the red.

I'm looking forward to telling them that their analysis was at least partially incorrect according to the developer.  That is good news, for sure.


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## Masskier (Nov 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Hmm...  The Bear Path townhomes used to be offered starting at $950,000.  (Source: Http://www.nehomemag.com/sites/nehomemag.com/files/images/7/mountainsideliving.pdf)
> 
> They are now being offered starting at $450,000.   (Source: http://bearpathtownhomes.com )
> 
> ...



You are using an ad from the Ginn era, from probably late 2007  or early  2008.   That unit was going to be an upgraded unit and it was never  built.  So not really a good comp to use.  I am sure that your real  estate agent friends known that you can't base the current market conditions on an  ad from 6 or 7 years ago and on a unit that was never built. 

For  current info go here  http://nneren.com/   and  search Condos, Burke Vt,  and you will find that there are currently 19 Condos listed of which 4 are on  deposit.  3 of the 4 units on deposit are on high end units.  And then  if you researched a little you will find that in the past year, 7 out of  the 8 new high end units that have been built  or currently under construction  are sold/ pre sold. The only one available is priced at $529k (2,000 SF) So based on this data, The high end market is doing very well.

No idea what you mean by  " original purchases that underwrote the project."  nor do I care.  As far as a couple of the original owners being in the red, well most of that red has disappear and in time they will most likely accumulate a lot of equity. (yes real estate values go up and down)  But the reality is they didn't buy these to flip them to make a quick buck.  It was really about lifestyle and family.


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## Masskier (Nov 22, 2014)

Correction, another Condo (Powderhorn) went on deposit today.  So there are now 5 units under deposit.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Your analysis omits price trends, but that's fine.  It is what it is.  My real estate agent friends did not say that property is not moving.  They merely said that it is moving at a significantly reduced price, which has put pressure on the early purchasers.  But it's nice to see that units are moving, at whatever price.  

I'm perplexed that you didn't know that some of the first purchasers in your project were also investors, but what do I know.  If that is incorrect, then there is definitely some misinformation out there.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 22, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You are using an ad from the Ginn era, from probably late 2007  or early  2008.   That unit was going to be an upgraded unit and it was never  built.  So not really a good comp to use.  I am sure that your real  estate agent friends known that you can't base the current market conditions on an  ad from 6 or 7 years ago and on a unit that was never built.
> 
> For  current info go here  http://nneren.com/   and  search Condos, Burke Vt,  and you will find that there are currently 19 Condos listed of which 4 are on  deposit.  3 of the 4 units on deposit are on high end units.  And then  if you researched a little you will find that in the past year, 7 out of  the 8 new high end units that have been built  or currently under construction  are sold/ pre sold. The only one available is priced at $529k (2,000 SF) So based on this data, The high end market is doing very well.
> 
> No idea what you mean by  " original purchases that underwrote the project."  nor do I care.  As far as a couple of the original owners being in the red, well most of that red has disappear and in time they will most likely accumulate a lot of equity. (yes real estate values go up and down)  But the reality is they didn't buy these to flip them to make a quick buck.  It was really about lifestyle and family.



Just adding to this, there have also been a couple of single family home purchases (one house and one land and then build) that are significant $'s. Certainly, we are still working our way to 2007 levels of $'s but these are high 6 and even low 7 figure investments. Massskier can answer the condo questions much better. Also, I know that the single family ski in-ski out units, if not owner occupied, can fetch 25-30k per winter. This is nothing compared to other ski in-ski out condos and houses around the state but that's still pretty good economics...BTW, a lot of these are BMA related, and I think/hope the hotel does a better job of getting recreational families into the area so they can see the amazing deals you can get (and yes, 750-1.2m+/- is an amazing deal compared to $3-8MM plus at Stratton, Stowe, etc.). That is why (I think) the hotel is so important for the vibrancy of the area and getting families to realize the amazing values and strong skiing that is available to them. I know this may hit the wrong chord with locals who want Burke to be sleepy forever, but let's face it, that would be nice but is unrealistic in the long-term while having a mountain that remains open to the public...


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## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2014)

$25-$30K is nuts no matter where.  I'd rather take a few trips out west with that kind of coin and then just day / weekend trip it where the snow is good in the East.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> $25-$30K is nuts no matter where.  I'd rather take a few trips out west with that kind of coin and then just day / weekend trip it where the snow is good in the East.


It just shows you the influence that Burke Mountain Academy has on the mountain.  BMA has been the glue that has held the mountain together.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> That is why (I think) the hotel is so important for the vibrancy of the area and getting families to realize the amazing values and strong skiing that is available to them. I know this may hit the wrong chord with locals who want Burke to be sleepy forever, but let's face it, that would be nice but is unrealistic in the long-term while having a mountain that remains open to the public...


I absolutely agree.


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## Masskier (Nov 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Your analysis omits price trends, but that's fine.  It is what it is.  My real estate agent friends did not say that property is not moving.  They merely said that it is moving at a significantly reduced price, which has put pressure on the early purchasers.  But it's nice to see that units are moving, at whatever price.
> 
> I'm perplexed that you didn't know that some of the first purchasers in your project were also investors, but what do I know.  If that is incorrect, then there is definitely some misinformation out there.



Analysis,  What analysis?  I was simply pointing out the facts.  Any  idiot with half a brain can see the trend in prices are going up.

Your perplexed?  I'm even more perplexed why you think some of the first Buyers were investors.  


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone[/QUOTE]


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Analysis,  What analysis?  I was simply pointing out the facts.  Any  idiot with half a brain can see the trend in prices are going up.
> 
> Your perplexed?  I'm even more perplexed why you think some of the first Buyers were investors.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I'm just repeating what people have told me.  You haven't given any evidence that prices are going up, but it's not worth discussing, frankly.   


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (Nov 22, 2014)

No, actually I gave you a link to the MLS to support what I said. which is current.  Not a link to an ad from 2007 that you provided to support what you said.   I agree it's not worth the time to discuss.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Masskier said:


> No, actually I gave you a link to the MLS to support what I said. which is current.  Not a link to an ad from 2007 that you provided to support what you said.   I agree it's not worth the time to discuss.


MLS prices that are lower than in 2007 show that prices have increased?  I guess we can just close the conversation there.


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## Edd (Nov 22, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> $25-$30K is nuts no matter where.  I'd rather take a few trips out west with that kind of coin and then just day / weekend trip it where the snow is good in the East.



You think folks are renting seasonally, like that?  I'd assume it's multiple parties generating those numbers. You'd need money to burn to spend that much. Just buy at that point.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Edd said:


> You think folks are renting seasonally, like that?  I'd assume it's multiple parties generating those numbers. You'd need money to burn to spend that much. Just buy at that point.


Never underestimate the money that BMA parents have.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 22, 2014)

Masskier said:


> The Condo market continues to improve.  The strongest demand is by far in the high end Condos.  There's been lots of sales and deposits in the past 12 months.  And *prices are certainly on the rise*.



 That's kindof surprising to me, unless you're basing that off the baseline from the crash.



VTKilarney said:


> I'm perplexed that you didn't know that *some of the first purchasers in your project were also investors*, but what do I know.  If that is incorrect, then there is definitely some misinformation out there.



If the project is remotely worthwhile, they usually are.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 22, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Never underestimate the money that BMA parents have.



BMA? Go check out Stratton and Stowe prices sometime. We are talking penny pinchers here with these rates, at least in the nicer units that are ski in-ski out, as compared to those other mountains...


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> BMA? Go check out Stratton and Stowe prices sometime. We are talking penny pinchers here with these rates, at least in the nicer units that are ski in-ski out, as compared to those other mountains...



That would not surprise me one bit.


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## Edd (Nov 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> BMA? Go check out Stratton and Stowe prices sometime. We are talking penny pinchers here with these rates, at least in the nicer units that are ski in-ski out, as compared to those other mountains...



I'm so naive. And poor, evidently.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2014)

Edd said:


> You think folks are renting seasonally, like that?  I'd assume it's multiple parties generating those numbers. You'd need money to burn to spend that much. Just buy at that point.



Look at property taxes in Vermont and you will see why buying doesn't make sense for many even with rent this high.  


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## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> BMA? Go check out Stratton and Stowe prices sometime. We are talking penny pinchers here with these rates, at least in the nicer units that are ski in-ski out, as compared to those other mountains...



Let's be honest though, that is apples to oranges.  Really it is.  I'm pretty sure that folks are skiing now at Stratton.  As for Burke?  Looks like three more weeks.  Then you have the loss on the other end of the season.  Not to mention that many places have FAR better amenities than Burke.  So really apples to oranges.  

The same with pricing too.  Sure, $500k may be a steal if you are from Southern New England and have two six-figure incomes, but the average household income in the NEK is a tiny fraction of that.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Let's be honest though, that is apples to oranges.  Really it is.  I'm pretty sure that folks are skiing now at Stratton.  As for Burke?  Looks like three more weeks.  Then you have the loss on the other end of the season.  Not to mention that many places have FAR better amenities than Burke.  So really apples to oranges.
> 
> The same with pricing too.  Sure, $500k may be a steal if you are from Southern New England and have two six-figure incomes, but the average household income in the NEK is a tiny fraction of that.




I agree, apples and oranges. Keep in mind these are all mainly second homes, so many of the buyers/owners are earning salary in the big city and not in the NEK (or elsewhere in VT). With that said, when the differences are 3-5x vs. other mountains, it does lead to a cost-benefit analysis by the buyer which only should trend the better properties at Burke more toward the other mountains, although probably never to parity. Of course, I agree mountain management is important/pivotal to making this happen. If the ski school, food, grooming and marketing all suck, all bets are off...

Also, on the point about renting vs. buying as it pertains to BMA. Many of the families that are renting from BMA have younger children who aren't yet in the academy. It is so difficult to get into BMA that it would be silly for them to buy so they mainly rent for the season until they know that the child (or children) are into the academy, then they usually buy. Regarding property taxes, they are really high almost anywhere, in this price bracket property taxes aren't usually the reason why people do/don't buy, even in VT.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2014)

Why are the parents renting or buying at all?  Doesn't the Academy have dorms for the students?


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 22, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Why are the parents renting or buying at all?  Doesn't the Academy have dorms for the students?


Dorms start for 9th graders (8th grade winter term). Anyone younger than that needs to stay at home with a parent. Also, a fairly good portion of the Academy dorm students' parents buy condos/houses...remember, these are hardcore skiing families and they are skiing somewhere, and many of them choose to ski weekend where there kids will be...


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Keep in mind these are all mainly second homes, so many of the buyers/owners are earning salary in the big city and not in the NEK (or elsewhere in VT). With that said, when the differences are 3-5x vs. other mountains, *it does lead to a cost-benefit analysis by the buyer which only should trend the better properties at Burke more toward the other mountains*, although probably never to parity.



I disagree.  In addition to the apples-to-oranges aspects discussed that make the other mountains generally more desirable, future expected return on sale has to be calculated into the cost-benefit analysis.  More often than not, markets tend to be relatively efficient, and the lower prices for QBurke properties than Stowe, Stratton etc... that were discussed are generally lower for logical reasons.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I disagree.  In addition to the apples-to-oranges aspects discussed that make the other mountains generally more desirable, future expected return on sale has to be calculated into the cost-benefit analysis.  More often than not, markets tend to be relatively efficient, and the lower prices for QBurke properties than Stowe, Stratton etc... that were discussed are generally lower for logical reasons.



No kidding, but I don't think a 3-5x discount is justified, even given all the issues we all note. My point is resale should go up given that the 3-5x gap is unjustified as time trends, and that should be part of your cost-benefit analysis. Also, affordability factors in as well. If I only have 700k to spend, I think if some families were made AWARE of Burke, they'd buy a slopeside there vs. a condo/house several miles from the mountain, as would be the case at many other mountains. I think the big problem at Burke right now, besides the services which I think will come as an echo effect should skier visits rise, is awareness. Also, if you believe crowds continue to grow at other mountains vs Burke (I'm looking at you, Loon, Waterville, Stowe, Sugarbush, So VT mtns), there may be a flight to (relatively) uncrowded mountains over time.

We could talk about an investment hypothesis all day, but there's actually a good hypothesis to invest at Burke, especially now that the hotel is going in to build this awareness that should lead to better trends for everyone (set aside any type of economic recession which would affect everyone)...


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> * if you believe crowds continue to grow at other mountains* vs Burke (I'm looking at you, Loon, Waterville, Stowe, Sugarbush, So VT mtns), *there may be a flight to *(relatively) *uncrowded mountains over time.*
> 
> We could talk about an investment hypothesis all day, but there's actually a good hypothesis to invest at Burke, especially now that the hotel is going in to build this awareness that should lead to better trends for everyone (set aside any type of economic recession which would affect everyone)...



In terms of the future of the sport, demographically I'm more concerned with the potential opposite of the bolded.


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## SkiRaceParent (Nov 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> In terms of the future of the sport, demographically I'm more concerned with the potential opposite of the bolded.



That could be the case. Again, an interesting debate. I'm extremely glad for one that Burke has Kingdom Trails, without it, I don't think I'd feel comfortable investing in Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2014)

One factor with sales prices is whether or not the purchaser has confidence that the mountain will be operating into the future.  Nobody can deny that this puts downward pressure on the Burke market.  An investor willing to take on that risk may wind up doing well, but the risk alone will scare some people away.

The real test at Burke is what units would sell for if BMA was not around.  I know some people who have purchased because they feel that BMA will keep the mountain open even if other owners fail.  I can't say that this is a bad theory.

But just look at condo values at Ascutney or Tenney if you don't think that there is risk with a mountain such as Burke.  Management is trying hard to make Burke profitable, but they are not firing on all cylinders and even if they were they still have a ways to go.  Let's hope they get there for everyone's sake.  But let's also be realistic about the risk that the lack of profitability presents.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One factor with sales prices is whether or not the purchaser has confidence that the mountain will be operating into the future.  Nobody can deny that this puts downward pressure on the Burke market.  An investor willing to take on that risk may wind up doing well, but the risk alone will scare some people away.
> 
> The real test at Burke is what units would sell for if BMA was not around.  I know some people who have purchased because they feel that BMA will keep the mountain open even if other owners fail.  I can't say that this is a bad theory.
> 
> But just look at condo values at Ascutney or Tenney if you don't think that there is risk with a mountain such as Burke.  Management is trying hard to make Burke profitable, but they are not firing on all cylinders and even if they were they still have a ways to go.  Let's hope they get there for everyone's sake.  But let's also be realistic about the risk that the lack of profitability presents.



Bottom line: no BMA no Burke. It would have been NELSAP in 2000.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> *Bottom line: no BMA no Burke. It would have been NELSAP *in 2000.



Is that right?  WOW.  I had no idea BMA was that profitable. :-o  Must be a goldmine for that to be the case.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  WOW.  I had no idea BMA was that profitable. :-o  Must be a goldmine for that to be the case.


It's not that BMA is profitable, it's that there are SUBSTANTIAL resources behind BMA that are committed to making sure that BMA continues to exist and continues to have a hill to train on.  The biggest risk is that BMA is lured away by another mountain, but the stakeholders have an attachment to their current location (thank goodness).

IMHO, the biggest risk if the mountain does not become self-sufficient is that BMA will continue to operate the training hill but not open the resort to the public.  I, frankly, wouldn't blame them if they chose to do so - but the thought of that happening is not a pleasant one.


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## Masskier (Nov 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  WOW.  I had no idea BMA was that profitable. :-o  Must be a goldmine for that to be the case.



BMA is a non-profit entity


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  WOW.  I had no idea BMA was that profitable. :-o  Must be a goldmine for that to be the case.



No, as said it has a few key benefactors. One in particular was the $$$ behind at least one HSQ and Burke2000 back in the day. If you rode the lift with this person you'd never kow that. 


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## Masskier (Nov 23, 2014)

One of the things that amazes me about BMA, is they have a mid week program for 5th,6th and 7th graders.  Some from the area but most are from other states throughout the US.  These families move to Burke from November through March. These children will either attend local schools or be home school.   Their schedules are set up so they are able to train with BMA coaches 5-6 days a week.  This is the track that most need to be on if they want to gain admission to BMA.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2014)

Masskier said:


> One of the things that amazes me about BMA, is they have a mid week program for 5th,6th and 7th graders.  Some from the area but most are from other states throughout the US.  These families move to Burke from November through March. These children will either attend local schools or be home school.   Their schedules are set up so they are able to train with BMA coaches 5-6 days a week.  This is the track that most need to be on if they want to gain admission to BMA.


Which brings us full circle.  BMA drives demand for on-mountain real estate.  We should be VERY thankful for that fact.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 23, 2014)

On a topic of more immediate interest, it sounds like the very-limited parking at mid-Burke (parking lot below the lodge is gone), in the two lower parking lots, will be augmented by the shuttle service, forcing even late-arriving mid-Burke locker holders to park at the Sherburne Lodge and get shuttled up and back when they are done. On a race day, it will be a zoo.........


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## Boardguy (Nov 23, 2014)

Yeah and race days are already a zoo. When the new hotel is finished and midburke gone where do you think they will put the racers? Yurt time maybe? This season as the lift line appears to have been moved to the other side of the lift will the route to the lift from the east side be on the east side of midburke? Trying to picture it I don't think there is room between the midburke stairs and the ski patrol shed. It would be nice though not having to deal with the flat and having to dodge the racers skis strewn about while going around the front of midburke.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 25, 2014)

Bump to keep this off page 2 :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 25, 2014)

Team Beaverkill is on the hill installing new snow guns.  From the photos, it looks like the natural snow is all gone.


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## JPTracker (Nov 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Team Beaverkill is on the hill installing new snow guns.  From the photos, it looks like the natural snow is all gone.



Where are the photos on their site? 

Don't seem to be any menu options to get there.


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## Masskier (Nov 25, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> Where are the photos on their site?
> 
> Don't seem to be any menu options to get there.



It's on their face book page.

https://www.facebook.com/BurkeMtn


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2014)

Q Burke posted some photos to their Facebook page.  

Here is the training hill as of today (12/1):


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2014)

In a comment on their Facebook page, they mentioned that they are not able to make snow on the upper hill and lower hill at the same time.  I had not realized that.  

I was hoping for an early opening, but there is still work to be done.  Here is the lower hill today (12/1):


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

Yikes.  Looks like quite a meltdown.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Yikes.  Looks like quite a meltdown.


It was more than I expected.  The training hill has some whales on it, so it isn't quite as bad as the photo makes it look.  But the lower hill needs a lot of work, and since they have eliminated so much parking at the mid-Burke lodge, I don't see an early opening.  I give them credit for keeping everyone informed, though.  It may have been smart to keep the whales rather than grooming everything out - at least if their intent was to stick to their originally planned opening date.  Although the whales have to be REALLY wet by now.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It was more than I expected.  The training hill has some whales on it, so it isn't quite as bad as the photo makes it look.  But the lower hill needs a lot of work, and since they have eliminated so much parking at the mid-Burke lodge, I don't see an early opening.  I give them credit for keeping everyone informed, though.  It may have been smart to keep the whales rather than grooming everything out - at least if their intent was to stick to their originally planned opening date.  Although the whales have to be REALLY wet by now.



I agree. According to the long range forecast, 7 of the next 10 days should be good snowmaking weather (temperatures below freezing all day, and some lows in the high teens or low twenties). Here's to hoping they can get their act together and make a good volume of snow to be open top to bottom by the 13th.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2014)

They have finally posted their lift ticket specials.  

$35 for people 55 and older on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 

$25 for Sunday afternoon (12:30 - 4:00) tickets beginning on January 4th - open to all.

I can understand not offering the Sunday special during Christmas vacation, but why aren't they offering it on December 14th?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They have finally posted their lift ticket specials.
> 
> $35 for people 55 and older on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
> 
> ...



I don't think they have ever offered the Ski and Ride NEK Style (SUnday afternoon discount) prior to January.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke posted some photos to their Facebook page.
> 
> Here is the training hill as of today (12/1):



With the cool down starting this afternoon. Looks like they are trying to spread out the whales before they freeze solid.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think they have ever offered the Ski and Ride NEK Style (SUnday afternoon discount) prior to January.


Ahh... I did not know that.  I wonder why?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think they have ever offered the Ski and Ride NEK Style (SUnday afternoon discount) prior to January.



That's my recollection as well.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2014)

We went from nothing to nearly a foot on hot ground, back to almost nothing in less than a week . 

At least the ground might get a chance to freeze a little this time around.

From Saturday:



Burke_Snowmaking by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

From this month's SKI Magazine...




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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2014)

you should post that up on facebook


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

Also in SKI: 



Someone needs to take them to task over the MRG comment. 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> you should post that up on facebook



I'm tempted. The last time I made a comment Q Jr. posted a snarky reply.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Dec 1, 2014)

Funny thing is that I don't he even cares that SAM magazine and now SKI magazine is making fun of him.   It's one thing to have a few customers ridicule you on Facebook and message boards, but when a mainstream publication like SKI magazine throws you under the bus, you might want to listen.  That's not the kind of PR you want.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Funny thing is that I don't he even cares that SAM magazine and now SKI magazine is making fun of him.   It's one thing to have a few customers ridicule you on Facebook and message boards, but when a mainstream publication like SKI magazine throws you under the bus, you might want to listen.  That's not the kind of PR you want.



Exactly 


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## crank (Dec 2, 2014)

Let me say this about that.  I used to work in TV promotion.  I wanted reaction to our on-air spots.  If it was negative reaction that was awesome because it showed people were involved with our product.  This thread being as active as it is is , believe it or not, is music to Q's ears.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2014)

crank said:


> Let me say this about that.  I used to work in TV promotion.  I wanted reaction to our on-air spots.  If it was negative reaction that was awesome because it showed people were involved with our product.  This thread being as active as it is is , believe it or not, is music to Q's ears.


The "no such thing as bad press" argument.  Anyone who is remotely knowledgeable about marketing knows that this is a myth.  Just ask Toyota and Tiger Woods how they feel about this issue.  Respectfully, TV promotion is probably much different than ski area promotion.

Having said that, I don't think that these kerfuffles have negatively affected Q Burke much at all.  Their customer base is generally local, affiliated with BMA, or already committed.


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## crank (Dec 2, 2014)

You guys are talking nonstop about Q.  Ski mag is talking about Q.  I think you are raising awareness of Q.  Probably more people are aware of Q now than were ever aware of a sleepy little hill everybody drives by called Burke.


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## zeke (Dec 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The "no such thing as bad press" argument.  Anyone who is remotely knowledgeable about marketing knows that this is a myth.  Just ask Toyota and Tiger Woods how they feel about this issue.  Respectfully, TV promotion is probably much different than ski area promotion.
> 
> Having said that, I don't think that these kerfuffles have negatively affected Q Burke much at all.  Their customer base is generally local, affiliated with BMA, or already committed.



totally agree about current audiences but they have a new audience they need to reach that cares very much about how the mountain functions compared to the rest of the industry–future investors. eb-5 problems with the same group at Jay aside, an industry mocking someone looking for money to operate within said industry probably doesn't scream return on investment.

secondarily, somebody needs to fill that hotel once (if) it's open and those people won't, for the most part, be locals, or bma or those already committed. so that's another market that the q-team is currently ignoring who will be forced to get information from outside sources like az or ski magazine.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The "no such thing as bad press" argument.  Anyone who is remotely knowledgeable about marketing knows that this is a myth.  Just ask Toyota and Tiger Woods how they feel about this issue.  Respectfully, TV promotion is probably much different than ski area promotion.
> 
> Having said that, I don't think that these kerfuffles have negatively affected Q Burke much at all.  Their customer base is generally local, affiliated with BMA, or already committed.



+1.  This is the wrong kind of publicity.  Last season they had a good snow year during the second half.  However, their numbers were pretty flat in terms of skier days.  This year will likely be the same or down because lots of locals despise him and will not ski there.  And, as of right now, they have to rely on locals.  

Unfortunately our concerns would normally at least be considered by a regular, logical thinking business person.  But since it appears that Q has other motivations (proving himself), there is no logic and our concerns fall on deaf ears.

SAM ridiculed Q in their annual "best and worst" of the ski season article.  The industry is relatively small....and many read SAM.  When your own industry is telling you that you are wrong you should listen.  Q's response when I brought that up on FB: a snide remark that he is a "leader" and doesn't follow the pack.  Um, OK.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> +1.  This is the wrong kind of publicity.  Last season they had a good snow year during the second half.  However, their numbers were pretty flat in terms of skier days.  This year will likely be the same or down because lots of locals despise him and will not ski there.  And, as of right now, they have to rely on locals.


For all of the complaining, I'm not convinced that the locals are fleeing.  This is because most of the local market is a captive one.  For most locals it's a significantly longer drive to the next closest hill.  Having said that, this is a test year for us since it's the first year that we have season passes.  If Burke does not deliver, we will go to Cannon or Bretton Woods.  Had we gone to Bretton Woods, we would have been skiing already - and we would be skiing later in the spring.  That alone makes up for 30 minute longer drive.  And, frankly, Bretton Woods is a better fit (terrain-wise) for my children.

On the other hand, I think Ary may mistake the difficulty locals have for skiing elsewhere with support.  That would be a grave mistake, indeed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2014)

The thing is though, how many "locals" are really supporting the place?  They did what, 75K skier visits last year?  So, how many season passes do we think they sold? 500? It's not a busy mountain.  You piss off say a dozen season pass buying families that do make the decision to ski elsewhere and that's a big hit for a place like Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2014)

I was under the impression that Burke was going to close mid-week between the weekends of December 13th and December 20th.  

Yet Liftopia is selling tickets for those mid-week days.  Could Liftopia be wrong or is this an indication that once Burke opens they will stay open?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> For all of the complaining, I'm not convinced that the locals are fleeing.  This is because most of the local market is a captive one.  For most locals it's a significantly longer drive to the next closest hill.  Having said that, this is a test year for us since it's the first year that we have season passes.  If Burke does not deliver, we will go to Cannon or Bretton Woods.  Had we gone to Bretton Woods, we would have been skiing already - and we would be skiing later in the spring.  That alone makes up for 30 minute longer drive.  And, frankly, Bretton Woods is a better fit (terrain-wise) for my children.
> 
> On the other hand, I think Ary may mistake the difficulty locals have for skiing elsewhere with support.  That would be a grave mistake, indeed.



Their season pass sales may be down (or may not be).  But I'm talking about the locals who buy day tickets and are not committed.  They will go elsewhere.  

And I agree with DHS' comment re: small market.  They need to grow their market, not lose market.


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The "no such thing as bad press" argument.  Anyone who is remotely knowledgeable about marketing knows that this is a myth.  Just ask Toyota and Tiger Woods how they feel about this issue.  Respectfully, TV promotion is probably much different than ski area promotion.



Bill Cosby is getting a ton of press lately.


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## Masskier (Dec 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> The thing is though, how many "locals" are really supporting the place?  They did what, 75K skier visits last year?  So, how many season passes do we think they sold? 500? It's not a busy mountain.  You piss off say a dozen season pass buying families that do make the decision to ski elsewhere and that's a big hit for a place like Burke.



Since BMA took over in 2000, season pass sales have been north of 2k, if not for all, then most of the seasons since then.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2014)

Edd said:


> Bill Cosby is getting a ton of press lately.



I am still stunned by those allegations....


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I am still stunned by those allegations....



Yeah, that really kills me. I could talk for some time about this as I grew up on his stuff. One particularly mind-blowing thing is that he's on tour right now with sell out crowds. I mean....wow.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2014)

crank said:


> You guys are talking nonstop about Q. * Ski mag is talking about Q.  I think you are raising awareness of Q.  Probably more people are aware of Q now than were ever aware of a sleepy little hill everybody drives by called Burke*.



I hadn't considered this, but perhaps you're right.  

Cant even recall the last time the place got national attention, and at the end of the day, the mountain is what matters and the terrain is still there.   Dunno if QBurke will save the place, or if it will be NELSAP in a dozen years, but I dont see this attention hurting them.  What's the big deal, so the owner has an ego?  Yeah, that's not keeping me away if I want to ski there.  I LOATHE what Jay Peak is doing with EB-5, but it doesn't keep me from buying lift tickets (at a discount of course!) and staying out of their woods.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I hadn't considered this, but perhaps you're right.
> 
> Cant even recall the last time the place got national attention, and at the end of the day, the mountain is what matters and the terrain is still there.   Dunno if QBurke will save the place, or if it will be NELSAP in a dozen years, but I dont see this attention hurting them.  What's the big deal, so the owner has an ego?  Yeah, that's not keeping me away if I want to ski there.  I LOATHE what Jay Peak is doing with EB-5, but it doesn't keep me from buying lift tickets (at a discount of course!) and staying out of their woods.



Right, but had Hank Greenberg changed the name of Stowe to G-Stowe and put it on a trail map, you'd certainly have an opinion.  Probably not a favorable one either.  Actually, it's even worse.  It would be more like him calling it G-Mansfield, like he was some colonial explorer who found the mountain.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Dec 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> ...like he was some colonial explorer who found the mountain.









Magua will wipe the seed from the Earth of the next Whitehair who claims colonials "discovered" mountains.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> *had Hank Greenberg changed the name of Stowe to G-Stowe and put it on a trail map, you'd certainly have an opinion. *



If someone changed the name to G-Stowe, I'd have guessed P.Diddy bought it.


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## dlague (Dec 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Their season pass sales may be down (or may not be).  But I'm talking about the locals who buy day tickets and are not committed.  They will go elsewhere.
> 
> And I agree with DHS' comment re: small market.  They need to grow their market, not lose market.



Last year we never ski Burke we opted to ski BTW afternoons on Sunday rather than NE Sundays.  Likewise RNSE did not have a tour stop there last year.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 3, 2014)

Via the webcam this morning, it looks like the MBEx has chairs on it and they are spinning it up for testing.


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## Masskier (Dec 3, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Via the webcam this morning, it looks like the MBEx has chairs on it and they are spinning it up for testing.



I was at mid Burke this AM and some of the ski patrol  were practicing chair evacuations


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2014)

Masskier said:


> I was at mid Burke this AM and some of the ski patrol  were practicing chair evacuations



Thanks.  


.


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## Masskier (Dec 4, 2014)

Check out the construction progress of the new Hotel;  Daily photos from July.

http://www.earthcam.net/projects/qburkemountain/resorthotel/


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 5, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Check out the construction progress of the new Hotel;  Daily photos from July.
> 
> http://www.earthcam.net/projects/qburkemountain/resorthotel/



Pretty neat.

And people can use Camera 2 as the, "are they blowing snow" cam.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 6, 2014)

6+" of heavy dense slop today. It stayed snow all day. Perfect base building snow.


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## snoseek (Dec 7, 2014)

When is opening day?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2014)

snoseek said:


> When is opening day?



I think it's this weekend. Has BMA been able to use the Poma yet?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it's this weekend. Has BMA been able to use the Poma yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



There were some photos of BMA using the training hill that were posted about mid-week last week.   


.


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## Masskier (Dec 8, 2014)

Yes,  The students spent most of November in CO training and returned to Burke on 11/30.  Then started training at Burke last Wednesday 12/3.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2014)

Q Burke still shows midweek tickets for sale on Liftopia for the week of December 14th.  Are they going to be open midweek, or is their marketing department asleep at the switch?  If it is a screw up, hopefully nobody makes the drive only to find a closed ski area.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke still shows midweek tickets for sale on Liftopia for the week of December 14th.  Are they going to be open midweek, or is their marketing department asleep at the switch?  If it is a screw up, hopefully nobody makes the drive only to find a closed ski area.



Think of the positives--plenty of room! Good snow! Good parking! :lol: 


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Think of the positives--plenty of room! Good snow! Good parking! :lol:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I'm banking on it being open. If not, I'll be hiking!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2014)

The storm that is arriving today is going to have a huge impact on opening weekend.  Temps will not allow for snowmaking after the storm hits.  It remains to be seen how much rain, if any, we will get.  Hopefully there will be very little rain.


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The storm that is arriving today is going to have a huge impact on opening weekend.  Temps will not allow for snowmaking after the storm hits.  It remains to be seen how much rain, if any, we will get.  Hopefully there will be very little rain.



Agreed. It should still open but the precipitation type will prob dictate whether we are skiing on 3 trails or ~10.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2014)

We got snow followed by rain.  Net result was a couple of very wet inches of snow.  Hopefully the mountain fared better.  


.


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## Masskier (Dec 10, 2014)

6" at mid Burke and more on top


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2014)

Pure rain now.  Grr...


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2014)

Here is a tentative list of trails that will be open this weekend:
East Bowl
Wilderness
Powderhorn
Carriage Road
Lift Line
Deer Run
Lower Doug's Drop
Mountain Marsh
McHarg's Cutoff
Dipper Doodle
Open Slope
Little Dipper
Lower Warren's Way
Upper Fox's Folly
Lower Fox's Folly
Upper Bear Den
Lower Bear Den
The Shoot
Upper Willoughby
High Meadows Pass
Sasquatch

The list seems somewhat ambitious given the damage to the snowpack that the rain has caused.  I'm disappointed (for my children's sake) that the only trail serving the Sherburne Express will be High Meadows Pass.  That makes for some VERY tedious skiing from that chair.  I was also hoping to see either Willloughby or the Dippers from top to bottom.  But... if they can manage it this is a very nice number of trails to have open for this time of the year.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2014)

Article about Burke Mountain: http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/rebirth-burke

A couple interesting points mentioned in the article:
1) $105 million has been "committed" to the Burke project.  This term is somewhat vague.
2) The mountain was renamed as a favor to the local community, to reassure them that the current owners are here to stay.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Article about Burke Mountain: http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/rebirth-burke
> 
> A couple interesting points mentioned in the article:
> 1) $105 million has been "committed" to the Burke project.  This term is somewhat vague.
> 2) The mountain was renamed as a favor to the local community, to reassure them that the current owners are here to stay.



http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/rebirth-burke?brn=ski&src=email&date=120314&lnk=text

You missed the BIGGEST part: the Bear Den will be saved!!!!!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2014)

Is the article paid for?  It smacks of PR. 

For some reason I thought that the Bear Den news had already gotten out there.  My bad.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Is the article paid for?  It smacks of PR.
> 
> For some reason I thought that the Bear Den news had already gotten out there.  My bad.



Speaking of PR, note who did the talking to Joe Cutts and SKI.


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## Masskier (Dec 10, 2014)

JJ Toland, is Director of Communications for Jay

Burke is reporting 20" on the summit


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Burke is reporting 20" on the summit



Holy smokes!   They must have had some big-time banding.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

They say that they have 20 inches at the summit stake, not that they received 20" from this latest storm.  

It's kind of like including your butt when measuring your privates.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> JJ Toland, is Director of Communications for Jay


So Burke does not have someone of their own?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

I've seen the figure of $108 million bandied about many times for the total cost of the Burke improvement project.  I had, however, never seen the cost of the hotel itself.  I finally stumbled upon that today.  In the following article, the contractor disclosed that the hotel will cost $55 million to build.  

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/891-q-burke-hotel-shaping-up


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## xwhaler (Dec 11, 2014)

Excellent news abt the snow (and Bear Den!)
Will be at Burke next Saturday using my Fox 44 voucher. Had fears that only 1-2 routes would be open off the summit but now with cold next week looks like they could possibly expand beyond what they will open with this coming wknd.


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 11, 2014)

If you want to keep your ACLs you may want to rethink skiing in this stuff, unless we get more fluffier snow or the groomers can mix it all in.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

I think he meant that he was coming on December 20th, but it was definitely not clear.  

I'm starting to rethink whether or not I will ski this weekend.  My wife is out of town, so I will have my sons with me for the whole time.  They are just beginning to transition from green trails to blue trails.  But this would only be their second time out this season, and I was hoping to stick to the lower mountain.  The problem with this is that the only trail available is High Meadows Pass.  Lapping High Meadows Pass would be only slightly better than an all-expenses paid trip to Guantanamo Bay.  

I guess I need to figure out if there is a route off the main mountain that will work for us.  Time to pull out the trail map.

I would take them to Jay, but unfortunately I have commitments in the afternoons that make the drive not really worth it.


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## xwhaler (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm planning to ski Burke next Saturday 12/20, yes.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

I just made this map of trails that they anticipate being open this weekend.  




.


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I just made this map of trails that they anticipate being open this weekend.
> 
> View attachment 14592
> 
> ...



Nothing on the lower MTN? Not that I am going or would ski down there anyway but families usually do


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Nothing on the lower MTN? Not that I am going or would ski down there anyway but families usually do


I'm assuming that you can ski from the top of the Sherburne Express to High Meadows Pass.  But as we all know that involves some skating.  

The one caveat is that they have not listed Midway as being open, which is the trail that connects the Sherburne Express to High Meadows Pass.


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## Masskier (Dec 11, 2014)

They did do some more grading between the top of the Sherburne and the MBex.  You may still need to skate,  just not as much.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> They did do some more grading between the top of the Sherburne and the MBex.  You may still need to skate,  just not as much.


That is EXCELLENT news!


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

I had heard rumor about the Bear Den being spared the wrecking ball. It sound like they are going to move it. I wonder where?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I had heard rumor about the Bear Den being spared the wrecking ball. It sound like they are going to move it. I wonder where?


Assuming it is moved to a reasonable location, let's give credit where credit is due.  This was a very good decision on the part of management.


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I had heard rumor about the Bear Den being spared the wrecking ball. It sound like they are going to move it. I wonder where?



nice


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Does anyone have a link to a diagram of the new hotel that shows where the common areas will be?


.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

FU FAIRPOINT!!! :angry:

Had a LONG post speculating about where the Bear Den would end up and lost it due to hitchy internet. 
http://www.wcax.com/story/27604684/widespread-fairpoint-outage-in-vermont-new-hampshire


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone have a link to a diagram of the new hotel that shows where the common areas will be?



http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7C0206-13-5/Plans/Plan A - Commercial Layout.pdf


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Is it just me or does construction seem to be focusing on the eastern wing of the hotel?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

Let's try this again...



VTKilarney said:


> Assuming it is moved to a reasonable location, let's give credit where credit is due. This was a very good decision on the part of management.



Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY happy they (finally) decided to keep the Bear Den.
Now we can speculate where they will move it.

Current setup:






*

Top 3 new locations -* 

*1.* After the Lodge portion is demolished, the Bear Den (orange block) is moved over near the bathrooms (blue block). Decks are added on three sides of the building.





Pros:
- Good central location for: watching races (Warrens Way) and rail jams (Open Slope), getting to car after apres is over.
- The filling and regrading of the parking area below allows skiers to easily ski around both sides of the building to access the MBX.
- Close to existing plumbing.
- Easier permitting.
- Generally better weather for outdoor events, i.e. sitting outside on the deck with a beer.

Cons:
- Too close to the new Hotel/Lodge
- Local fire department may require a plowed road to the building (making skiing around both side of the building less feasible).

*2.* Top of the Poma.





Pros: 
- Great View
- Easy access from top of lifts
- Access to electricity
- Can serve as top of course warming hut on race days

Cons:
- Upper mountain weather is often not good for outdoor relaxation (wind, fog, etc)
- No access to septic (possible downloading via portable holding tanks?)
- Resupply requires snow cat
- Operation after lifts close (patrol sweep)  is unlikely.


*3.* Near the Pavilion (Lower Dipper)





Pros:
- Great View
- Easy access from major trails (central location on that side of the mtn).
- Access to electricity
- Can serve as indoor area for weddings that are held in that area during non-snow months.

Cons:
- Upper mountain weather is often not good for outdoor relaxation (though slightly better than #2 above)
- No access to septic (possible downloading via portable holding tanks?)
- Resupply requires snow cat
- Operation after lifts close (patrol sweep)  is unlikely.




Other options:
The roped off area above the Sherburne Express (likely requires extensive blasting).
The top of Upper Dipper (may be too close to the wind turbine).
Bottom of East Bowl lift ;-)


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 11, 2014)

Great work, NEK. Thank you.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

If they move it (yes, I said "if"), I doubt that option #1 will be the new location.  My feeling is that they want to showcase the new hotel, and that they won't want this structure in front of it.

Option #2 is a non-starter.  It's a permitting nightmare, and a logistical nightmare.

Option #3 would make a lot of sense. 

In order to capture the skier traffic off of the Sherburne Express, is there a spot just below the entrance to High Meadow Pass that would work?

IMHO, the bigger question is why has there been a change of plans regarding the Bear Den?  I've got a theory based on data that was recently presented to me, but it's still a work in progress.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If they move it (yes, I said "if"), I doubt that option #1 will be the new location.  My feeling is that they want to showcase the new hotel, and that they won't want this structure in front of it.
> 
> Option #2 is a non-starter.  It's a permitting nightmare, and a logistical nightmare.
> 
> ...



Why would the permitting and logistics be any different between 2 and 3? They are both right near the Toll Road and are above the 2000' in elevation.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> In order to capture the skier traffic off of the Sherburne Express, is there a spot just below the entrance to High Meadow Pass that would work?



Sherburne Express traffic is kind of what I was thinking with "Other options #1. 
Easy to get to from SX.
Can get upper mtn traffic off of Lower Willoughby. 
Easy to get back to the MBX.
Decent views.

Down near High Meadows Pass starts to get too close to the Hotel again.
Can't get to MBX.
There would be crap for views.


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 11, 2014)

I feel like a great location would be at the top of the Sherburne lift, accessible from the lift and also from the trails coming down from the top in that area (Willoughby etc)


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Why would the permitting and logistics be any different between 2 and 3? They are both right near the Toll Road and are above the 2000' in elevation.


My bad.  I looked too quickly.  I was thinking that the location was at the bottom of the Dipper trail, to the east of the hotel but out of view from the hotel.  I see that it is actually quite a bit higher up.

Here is my ideal location: Somewhere at the base of the trails in the east bowl area, right under a new lift that is installed to service that side of the mountain.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is my ideal location: Somewhere at the base of the trails in the east bowl area, right under a new lift that is installed to service that side of the mountain.


Agreed!
:beer:


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2014)

I dig the Bears den and all, but I have a hard time believing they'd go through the trouble in moving outside of salvaging the bar and furniture.  You think they'd really go through the trouble of moving the full structure including the fireplace?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I dig the Bears den and all, but I have a hard time believing they'd go through the trouble in moving outside of salvaging the bar and furniture.  You think they'd really go through the trouble of moving the full structure including the fireplace?


Outside of the Fireplace (which would likely have to be replaced with a gas version anyway), the building is a bolted together truss structure that shouldn't be too difficult to disassemble and reassemble. I know of a lot of people that would volunteer to help move it.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

It appears from photos, such as the one below, that construction is favoring the west-wing of the hotel.



I noticed that the plans for the new hotel show that the new bar will be located in the east-wing of the hotel.  You can see that depicted here (note: the top of the diagram faces south, toward the ski lift):

View attachment 14604

Isn't a funny coincidence that work appears to be lagging on the wing that will have the bar and Q Burke announced an unexpected change in plans to keep the Bear Den bar?  Coincidences never cease to amaze me, even if they are just that - a coincidence.

No doubt we will see construction pick up on the east wing this winter.  I mean, that's the plan, right?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

Dude, I'm not saying you are wrong but I highly doubt that the order in which they are putting the pieces of the building together has anything to do with where the bar is (or isn't) going.

More likely reason the "2nd" floor of West wing is likely progressing faster: There is a lot more site work being done on the driveway area adjacent to the lower side of the East Wing that is preventing the cranes from safely accessing that area of the building.

I think you are searching for a hot topic to talk about that may not really be there. If it turns out to be the case that the Hotel no long has a major bar as shown in the floor plan. I'll buy you a beer at the Bear Den :beer:

Edit: The floor plan attachment is still busted.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Dude, I'm not saying you are wrong but I highly doubt that the order in which they are putting the pieces of the building together has anything to do with where the bar is (or isn't) going.


I was just pointing out a coincidence, nothing more.  ;-)


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Weird.  It seems like the attached photos will work for a while, and then stop working.  

Here is the floor plan again:


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2014)

If they do actually drop the big bar from the plans, I think they would at least keep a small bar that serves drinks for functions in the Day Lodge/Balcony area (see the small "bar" area between the big bar and the Day Lodge). A ski bar that doesn't have windows looking toward the ski trails is not going to be very popular. The Bear Den has both mountain and Willoughby views!

Replace the big bar with Conference Room 3. Replace Conference Room 3 with an indoor wedding chapel?


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Dude, I'm not saying you are wrong but I highly doubt that the order in which they are putting the pieces of the building together has anything to do with where the bar is (or isn't) going.
> 
> I think you are searching for a hot topic to talk about that may not really be there. If it turns out to be the case that the Hotel no long has a major bar as shown in the floor plan. I'll buy you a beer at the Bear Den :beer:[/QUOTE=from_the_NEK;876152]
> 
> Lay off him, he has a Qonspiracy Theory :grin:


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 11, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Dude, I'm not saying you are wrong but I highly doubt that the order in which they are putting the pieces of the building together has anything to do with where the bar is (or isn't) going.
> 
> I think you are searching for a hot topic to talk about that may not really be there. If it turns out to be the case that the Hotel no long has a major bar as shown in the floor plan. I'll buy you a beer at the Bear Den




Lay off him, he has a Qonspiracy Theory :grin:


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm quite serious when I say that I was just pointing out a coincidence.  After all, who in their right mind would build half a hotel and leave an empty shell for the remaining half.  Nobody would ever do such a thing - at least if they have the business skill of a five year old.  If you couldn't build the whole thing you build something smaller.  You don't build part of the whole thing and then finish only half of it.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 11, 2014)




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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2014)

The Hotel is funded for completion. Right?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (Dec 11, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> If they move it (yes, I said "if"), I doubt that option #1 will be the new location.  My feeling is that they want to showcase the new hotel, and that they won't want this structure in front of it.
> 
> Option #2 is a non-starter.  It's a permitting nightmare, and a logistical nightmare.
> 
> ...





OMG,  here we go again.   LOL  :lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2014)

Masskier said:


> OMG,  here we go again.   LOL  :lol:


It's not really a laughing matter, Masskier.

Here is what we know from what is out there.  Stenger stated in April that Burke was 25% funded.  The figure that is most commonly used for the Burke project is $108 million.  The contractor of the hotel (J. Davis), in September 2014, told a news outlet that the hotel that is now under construction would cost "about $55 million" to build.  If we assume that Stenger was referring to fundraising for the whole project, we can infer that as of April approximately $27 million had been raised just to complete the hotel.  This was shortly before ground was broken.  That left $28 million to be raised for completion of the hotel.

So the real question is what have they raised since April, since we know that they had a LONG way to go.  Seeing the various projects that are languishing (AnC Bio, Newport, Stateside), there is reason to believe that EB-5 fundraising has significantly languished.  We also know that when it suits him, Stenger has no problem advertising the fact that a project is successfully funding.  Yet there hasn't been one peep out of the Burke stakeholders about this since April.

So what does this mean?  This is merely my opinion, but I think that it is reasonable to question the state of affairs up at the hotel.  Putting together what has been out there, it's my opinion that EB-5 capped out at about $25-$30 million short of what is needed to complete the hotel.  That means that either private funding has to be secured, or something has to give on the construction side of the equation.  Since we are talking about a massive amount of private equity for a not-so-busy ski area that has had demonstrable management issues, I'm not sure how easy it will be to raise funds through non EB-5 channels.  

One way or the other, we should have a clear picture of where things stand by this spring.  If money is an issue, you can only pretend that it is not for so long.

I'm happy for you to show that my opinion is off base, Masskier.  But cheerleading alone is not persuasive.  If you have some facts that I have missed or disagree with my logic, consider this your opportunity to let me know where my opinion went astray.

But that's just my opinion.  Only time will tell if it is accurate or not.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It's not really a laughing matter, Masskier.
> 
> Here is what we know from what is out there.  Stenger stated in April that Burke was 25% funded.  The figure that is most commonly used for the Burke project is $108 million.  The contractor of the hotel (J. Davis), in September 2014, told a news outlet that the hotel that is now under construction would cost "about $55 million" to build.  If we assume that Stenger was referring to fundraising for the whole project, we can infer that as of April approximately $27 million had been raised just to complete the hotel.  This was shortly before ground was broken.  That left $28 million to be raised for completion of the hotel.
> 
> ...



It is interesting that there has been no formal announcement on funding. But with that said, I don't think anyone (and I hope I'm not wrong) would be crazy enough to start a project of that magnitude up here with the risk of it not being completed. I imagine there is a bank already behind it as a back stop, as a worst case. 

I did check out the site the other day and it appears much busier in person than what someone could pick up from on webcam. There were probably 15-20 workers and lots of construction vehicles. Also, the Mid Burke lot is full of semis with stacks and stacks of wood. They are labeled for the part of the building they are going to (for example, East, 15).

To me the real question is the future projects, I'd put those in the doubtful category, unless I hear more.


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## JPTracker (Dec 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm quite serious when I say that I was just pointing out a coincidence.  After all, who in their right mind would build half a hotel and leave an empty shell for the remaining half.  Nobody would ever do such a thing - at least if they have the business skill of a five year old.  If you couldn't build the whole thing you build something smaller.  You don't build part of the whole thing and then finish only half of it.



From the view on the web cam they started on one side of the hotel then are working across to the other side. They are still one the first floor of framing.

The bigger question is why is work progressing so slowly? It seems as they have a minmal crew on just to show progress. If they were building at the same speed Jay put up the Tram Haus Lodge there would be a lot more framing up if not all up by now.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  I can't imagine that any CEO would be so reckless as to commence construction of the hotel without reasonable assurance that funding is in place.  For all of the flack that management at Burke has received, it is simply inconceivable that they would be that incompetent.

Having said that, I stand by my opinion that EB-5 funding fell short as of the time ground was broken.  My estimation is that they had only secured $24-$27 million through EB-5.  

This may simply be the result of unseasoned management, but what's frustrating about this whole thing is that I can't see any reason why they have failed to indicate that sufficient funding is in place.  There is a lot of whispering here in the NEK about the NEK improvement project having problems.  The delay in projects alone justifies the concern that people have. 

So there appears to be a disconnect.  On the one hand, management states that they see the value in reassuring the local community.  This was their stated rationale for changing the name of the resort to "Q Burke".  If they understood the locals, they would know that a much better method of reassuring the locals would be to just come out and say that sufficient funds are in place to complete construction of the hotel as planned.  For the life of me I can't see any reason NOT to do this since they have gone on record saying that only 25% had been secured.  That is not a good way to leave things.  Not a good way at all.  If a simple and short press release would make all of the chatter go away, it is senseless to leave this hanging.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

JPTracker said:


> The bigger question is why is work progressing so slowly? It seems as they have a minmal crew on just to show progress. If they were building at the same speed Jay put up the Tram Haus Lodge there would be a lot more framing up if not all up by now.


Now that is an interesting observation.  The Burke hotel is supposed to be modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge.  I was not aware of the pace of construction for the Tram Haus.  You would think that, adjusting for seasonal effects, the pace would be similar.


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Now that is an interesting observation.  The Burke hotel is supposed to be modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge.  I was not aware of the pace of construction for the Tram Haus.  You would think that, adjusting for seasonal effects, the pace would be similar.



I thought the Tram Haus was modular construction and this is by hand? Maybe I'm confusing it with the new Stateside.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I thought the Tram Haus was modular construction and this is by hand? Maybe I'm confusing it with the new Stateside.


Stateside was modular.  I don't know about Tram Haus.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Now that is an interesting observation.  The Burke hotel is supposed to be modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge.  I was not aware of the pace of construction for the Tram Haus.  You would think that, adjusting for seasonal effects, the pace would be similar.



Except that the Mid Burke Hotel is TWICE the size of the Tram House Lodge. Add to that the huge amount of site work (dirt moving) that is still occurring on the far side of the hotel out of sight of the webcam.
From the look of things they are also pretty busy inside the "basement" installing utility infrastructure.

From Burke's Facebook:


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I thought the Tram Haus was modular construction and this is by hand? Maybe I'm confusing it with the new Stateside.


Tram House was stick built. Stateside was modular (the hotel section anyway).


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2014)

Correction to above:
Including the Day Lodge/Common area, the Mid Burke Hotel is *2.4 times* the size of the Tram House Lodge.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Correction to above:
> Including the Day Lodge/Common area, the Mid Burke Hotel is *2.4 times* the size of the Tram House Lodge.


That definitely accounts for a difference.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Correction to above:
> Including the Day Lodge/Common area, the Mid Burke Hotel is *2.4 times* the size of the Tram House Lodge.


I just realized that the EB-5 numbers back this up.  Tram Haus had 35 investors.  Assuming $500,000 each, that's a $17.5 million investment.  It was mentioned that Stenger/Quiros contributed ten percent, so figure that it cost just shy of $20 million to build.  The Burke hotel is projected to cost $55 million to build.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Correction to above:
> Including the Day Lodge/Common area, the Mid Burke Hotel is *2.4 times* the size of the Tram House Lodge.



Wow.  That also explains the $55 mill price tag.


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## Masskier (Dec 12, 2014)

Article in today's Cal Record states that Burke will be open daily next week.  Also announces the new GM.  And speaking of the Hotel, it states that the construction is  ahead of schedule.  That is a good thing as they started booking events for the Hotel last month.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2014)

It is amazing you guys haven't picked up on this yet. Since the first plans came, out they have been saying it is going to be two Tram House like buildings joined with a day lodge. They even have a picture of what it is going to look like.






This building huge ~550' from corner to corner.

Try to picture it this way at Jay. 
Looking the Tram House Lodge from the mountainside. 
To the right side attach the building that houses the International Room/Country store to it (roughly where the Tram dock building is).
Then attach a mirror image of the Tram House lodge to the right of that. The building would almost reach the outdoor pool over by Hotel Jay. 
Something roughly like this:







Relative building sizes to note:
Hotel Jay is roughly 540' from end to end (including the stairway gap between sections of the building). Edit: f you add up the various wings it's footprint is roughly 800' in total length.

Jay's Stateside Hotel Lodge = 350' long 

Sugarbush: Clay Brook Hotel/Condo (place that looks like a barn) = U shaped footprint 460' (not including Timbers Restaurant)

Killington Grand Hotel = 710'

Okemo Jackson Gore Hotel/Lodge = 770' (U-shape)

Mt Snow Grand = 750' (T-shape)

Attitash Grand Summit Hotel = 530'


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## deadheadskier (Dec 12, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Article in today's Cal Record states that Burke will be open daily next week.  Also announces the new GM.  And speaking of the Hotel, it states that the construction is  ahead of schedule.  That is a good thing as they started booking events for the Hotel last month.



That's a subscription site.  Who is the GM?  What is their background?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

The manager is Todd Gagnon.  The article mentions military experience, and that's it.

This may or may not be him:
http://regimentalryan.tumblr.com/post/80210290174/vermont-national-guard-1st-sgt-todd-gagnon-a


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## deadheadskier (Dec 12, 2014)

So basically one of Ary's guard buddies.   Predictable


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *Stenger stated in April that Burke was 25% funded.*  The figure that is most commonly used for the Burke project is $108 million.  *The contractor of the hotel (J. Davis), in September 2014, told a news outlet that the hotel that is now under construction would cost "about $55 million" to build.*  If we assume that Stenger was referring to fundraising for the whole project, we can infer that as of April approximately $27 million had been raised just to complete the hotel.  This was shortly before ground was broken.  That left $28 million to be raised for completion of the hotel.
> 
> So *the real question is what have they raised since April, since we know that they had a LONG way to go.  Seeing the various projects that are languishing (AnC Bio, Newport, Stateside), there is reason to believe that EB-5 fundraising has significantly languished. *



There's such a simple solution to all this.  

 Just place a phone call to the  Vermont EB-5 Regional Center and ask them.  

Surely that gilded government pillar or truth, openness, transparency, and vaunted "accounting watch dog" will have the answer for you in less than 5 minutes.  



SkiRaceParent said:


> It is interesting that there has been no formal announcement on funding. But with that said,* I don't think anyone (and I hope I'm not wrong) would be crazy enough to start a project of that magnitude up here with the risk of it not being completed.* I imagine there is a bank already behind it as a back stop, as a worst case.



I wouldn't be so sure.  Put it this way, if the project ISNT fully funded already, they've already taken that risk, however small it may be. 

 As for your banking assumption, I'm not even sure what you mean.  This is funded with "free money".



from_the_NEK said:


> Correction to above:
> Including the Day Lodge/Common area, the Mid Burke Hotel is *2.4 times* the size of the Tram House Lodge.



Holy poop on a Popsicle stick!   That's HUGE!

There's going to be some awesome lodging deals up there once the intentionally overoptimistic long-term vacancy versus capacity projections required to get shovels in the ground predictably fail.  *SWEET!*


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## Masskier (Dec 12, 2014)

up to 29 trails open for tomorrow


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 12, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's such a simple solution to all this.
> 
> Just place a phone call to the  Vermont EB-5 Regional Center and ask them.
> 
> ...



We get it. Your agenda is overly clear in your commentary, you don't like the EB-5 program and those that are running it. Thanks for that update on everything, quite helpful to hear the same thing for the 45th time. 

As for my banker comment, as you may or may not banks make money by lending money at a certain interest rate to projects. If I were a banker in the north country, I'd look at the hotel as an easy win. Collateral value which is the hotel will be funded by equity with, as you call it "free money" (not so free but sure, for now we can go with that).  So in the event the hotel can't be fully funded, you in affect own the hotel with your principal being the amount you lent (in this case, using VTK's numbers, the difference between 30 and 55 million, so 30 million). Sure, I'll buy a hotel that just cost $55 M to build for $25 M. where do I sign up...I don't quite know the idiosyncrasies of the EB-5 program but I assume that those projects have the same bankruptcy protection laws as every other business out there, in which case their 'equity' would go away, and the bank would own the project/hotel outright. Make sense?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

Burke just posted a map like the one I had drawn.  The good news is that there are a couple of more trails they will be opening, including a better route from the Sherburne Express.  It looks like we are off to a good start!


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 12, 2014)

Only the upper 1/3 of Lower Willoughby will be open ;-).


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Only the upper 1/3 of Lower Willoughby will be open ;-).


And you have to walk from the Sherburne Express to the Mid Burke Express.  ;-)


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> *We get it. Your agenda is overly clear in your commentary, you don't like the EB-5 program* *and those that are running it.* Thanks for that update on everything, quite helpful to hear the same thing for the 45th time.



You are correct; I dont like EB-5.  That doesn't make my opinion on the particulars of the matter any less valid.  

As for, _"those that are running it"_, they are either: (A) incompetent or (B) wholly complicit. There is no choice (C), and both (A) & (B) are unfortunate.



SkiRaceParent said:


> As for my banker comment, as you may or may not banks make money by lending money at a certain interest rate to projects. If I were a banker in the north country, I'd look at the hotel as an easy win. Collateral value which is the hotel will be funded by equity with, as you call it "free money" (not so free but sure, for now we can go with that).  So in the event the hotel can't be fully funded, you in affect own the hotel with your principal being the amount you lent (in this case, using VTK's numbers, the difference between 30 and 55 million, so 30 million). Sure, I'll buy a hotel that just cost $55 M to build for $25 M. where do I sign up...I don't quite know the idiosyncrasies of the EB-5 program but I assume that those projects have the same bankruptcy protection laws as every other business out there, in which case their 'equity' would go away, and the bank would own the project/hotel outright.
> 
> *Make sense?*



Assuming you want to quickly lose your job as VP of Commercial Lending?   Yes.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2014)

2,441 posts and counting!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 12, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> 2,441 posts and counting!



Yeah, I had to go look and see what the current highest post count thread was, and this one is #2 after the "Guess the ski area" thread. Closing in fast! :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Facepalm moments continue to happen at Q Burke.

They just posted this to their Facebook page:
----------
_12 Days of Deals begins today!

Each day we'll announce a great deal that will be available that day only! On December 24th there will be a grand prize drawing for any purchases made during the sale event that will include 1 Night at the NEW Q Burke Hotel, 1 Day Lift Tickets for 2 people, and Dinner for 2 in the new hotel restaurant (redeemable winter 15/16)._
---------

Gotta love a contest that violates Attorney General Rule 109.01 and 9 V.S.A. Sec. 2453(a).


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 13, 2014)

The "no purchase necessary" Law?
I suppose, if someone complains, they can be directed here... http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> And you have to walk from the Sherburne Express to the Mid Burke Express.  ;-)



I no longer see Midway on the trail map or listed in the trails list.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The "no purchase necessary" Law?
> I suppose, if someone complains, they can be directed here... http://www.skiburke.com/contest/index.php


That's a different contest.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Lift is broken.  




.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Lift started as of 9:37.  


.


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## faQ (Dec 13, 2014)

Ugh.  Tractor trailer stuck in mid burke parking lot.  As of 10:00, still not loading chairs (frozen grips).  Poma to midway only.  29 trails open, you just have to hike to them.  Rookie fail.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2014)

faQ said:


> Ugh.  Tractor trailer stuck in mid burke parking lot.  As of 10:00, still not loading chairs (frozen grips).  Poma to midway only.  29 trails open, you just have to hike to them.  Rookie fail.



MidBurke HSQ is not running?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## faQ (Dec 13, 2014)

No MBE or Willoughby.  Maybe they are loading now, I went home.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 13, 2014)

So was fearless leader Q too cheap to run a function check on the lifts yesterday, or too lazy?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2014)

faQ said:


> No MBE or Willoughby.  Maybe they are loading now, I went home.



Why not run the Willoughby? Problem solved!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> So was fearless leader Q too cheap to run a function check on the lifts yesterday, or too lazy?



There's probably no staff left to do it!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Everything running now.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Ary just paid for his own coffee at the snack bar.  I guess ownership only goes so far.   


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Opening day at about noon.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Lift line at around noon.  


.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 13, 2014)

Who cares about the Sherburne line. My guess is the majority of the park kids that usually make the SBX line "longer" are up at the rail jam at Mid Burke. Additionally, the Dashney Mile park hasn't been built yet.

What does the MBX line look like?

I wish I could be there today. I'm on kid duty. I had a chance to sneak out for an hour this morning but I'm glad I didn't do it with the lifts being down.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 13, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> What does the MBX line look like?



That one's easy...

http://www.skiburke.com/webcam/


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

MBX was the same.  I tried to snap a photo but Ary was scanning tickets at the time.   


.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm back in front of a computer now, so I have time to type a few thoughts.  

First, it was a fantastic opening day.  They need some more snow to build up their base, but for this time of year things are looking absolutely great.  I'm encouraged.

I was surprised that the crowds were so low.  I've never skied opening day, so I have no basis for comparison.  It really makes you realize how hard Burke has it.  They aren't a destination resort, and they aren't near a population center.  Today made me realize  how many challenges they have.  The hotel is definitely needed.

Having skied BW last weekend, it really stands out that Burke is rough around the edges.  The morning was a good example.  You had the lift hold, and despite the low crowds it took 60 minutes for a friend of mine to get his season pass.  Hopefully these things will happen with less frequency as we move forward.

Ary was all over the mountain.  He clearly likes to be seen.  The weird thing is that nobody seemed to want to talk to him.  It was awkward.

For the life of me I don't understand why they didn't groom Deer Run.  It made the trail ski even narrower than it is.  Is there not enough snow to groom it?

The weather was a bit disappointing.  The mountain was in the clouds all day, which made it feel colder than the temperature indicated.  The flat light made things tricky in the afternoon as bumps and ruts cropped up.  

There is absolutely no improvement getting from SBX to MBX.  I have no idea what Masskier was thinking when he suggested that there was.

It is apparent that there is still a learning curve going on at the mountain.  The impact of the high turnover, and the lack of seasoned management, is easily seen.  But we are off to a good start thanks to Mother Nature, so the issues that I observed were easy to ignore.  I'm just glad that I got there late so I wasn't really impacted by the lift holds.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 13, 2014)

I've been eyeing the mountain all day. It has certainly been socked in all day. Hopefully I'll be able to make it up there tomorrow for a couple hours. It is supposed to clear off a bit by then too.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary just paid for his own coffee at the snack bar.  I guess ownership only goes so far.
> 
> 
> .



That's a random post 

And Daddy owns Burke....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## xwhaler (Dec 13, 2014)

Nice post VTkillarney.  Will be at Burke next Saturday.   Looking fwd to it


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

Burke says 725 people on opening day which is supposed to be a very good showing.   

They're using photos of the line for the broken lift, which is funny.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke says 725 people on opening day which is supposed to be a very good showing.
> 
> They're using photos of the line for the broken lift, which is funny.



That's funny. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (Dec 13, 2014)

From their Face book page

We just wanted to give A HUGE thank you to the  725 skiers and riders who came out to kick off the winter season with  us today!  This was hands down the most support the resort has seen on  opening day in quite some time.  Cheers to a great season! 

 qBurke Mtn Resort Team


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2014)

That's one of the photos I was referring to.  Apparently they believe it's good marketing to show annoyed and frustrated people enduring a 40 minute delay.  Since it's not a video, maybe it is.  

I've posted photos of what the non-lines were like once the lift got going.  

But it's great to see a good turnout.  Does anyone know how 725 compares to most years?


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## BurkeVT (Dec 14, 2014)

I was on kid duty too. My son's 5, and Is still a j-Bar skier. We were pretty disappointed to find the j-Bar lift closed yesterday while standing in line for our passes. The folks at the desk claimed that it had to do with snow, though friends who actually skied said the bunny slope was fine. 
How do you open without a place for the young'uns?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VTKilarney (Dec 14, 2014)

The J Bar trail was open, so I'm no sure why snow was the issue.  The ski school was closed, so it may have had something to do with that.


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## BurkeVT (Dec 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The J Bar trail was open, so I'm no sure why snow was the issue.  The ski school was closed, so it may have had something to do with that.



Maybe that's it. I assumed the J-bar lift was a given on opening day. Assumptions... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VTKilarney (Dec 14, 2014)

It was clear to me yesterday that cost cutting is still very much in play.


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## xwhaler (Dec 14, 2014)

Are they still selling tickets at Mid Burke?  Using my Fox 44 voucher next wknd and unsure if I have to go to Sherburne to redeem


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 16, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> Are they still selling tickets at Mid Burke?  Using my Fox 44 voucher next wknd and unsure if I have to go to Sherburne to redeem



Going to the Sherburne Lodge is probably the best bet.

On another note, it is good they were open mid-week for all 0 people I've watched get on the lift when watching the webcam for 3 minutes.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Going to the Sherburne Lodge is probably the best bet.
> 
> On another note, it is good they were open mid-week for all 0 people I've watched get on the lift when watching the webcam for 3 minutes.


I wish more people were skiing as encouragement for Burke to stay open mid-week at this time next year.  I wonder what percentage of people have day tickets.

It will be interesting to see to what extent the hotel affects the days that the are open.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> Are they still selling tickets at Mid Burke?  Using my Fox 44 voucher next wknd and unsure if I have to go to Sherburne to redeem


I thought that they had stopped selling tickets at Mid-Burke.


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## dlague (Dec 16, 2014)

This is bad ass!  Shredding up Deer Run Formula Drifting!


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

Just a quick update on a few fronts:

first, I've been around the construction on the hotel quite a bit. It appears as though the wood framing of the bottom two floors on the east side has begun. Large shipments of wood arrived yesterday, and it appears the manpower has shifted to that side. I would gather they are trying to box in the entire first two floors before hard winter arrives so they can move the majority of construction indoors. Also, there appears to me no shortage of workers or activity. It certainly wouldn't pass my mind that they are 'slowing down' at all, based on what I have witnessed.

Second, the skiing has been very good. The snow has been very soft but not overly wet. Up top there is a ton of snow and the skiing is even good on ungroomed trails. I was amazed since I sat down at town level during the long duration storm and most of it was (seemingly) rain. I imagine the rain today may harden things once it freezes but there is the forecast of 2-4" of snow tonight and then again tomorrow.

Lastly, everyone I have interfaced with, has been happy and helpful. From the lift attendants, to the ticket sellers, etc. Nice people, seem to be happy working. Then again, I'm not on the inside. But it's good to see people gainfully employed in the NEK and getting some income.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

I was hoping to get out this week before the rain hit, but I was too busy at work to find the time.  Hopefully they will recover from this rain in time for the weekend.  

If we can get one more decent snowfall it would make a huge difference.  Right now they can't groom natural-snow trails if they ice up.  A few more inches of snow would allow that to happen.

Over the weekend I thought that the staff was really friendly.  It's nice to hear that it wasn't just opening day buzz.

As for the hotel, I'll believe it when I see it.  The real test will be what happens when they are 50-66% of the way in.  Since we can infer that they have raised enough to get to about that point, what happens now is less telling than what happens later.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

We are getting a real soaking rain today.  The good news is that it is not that warm, so hopefully it isn't doing too much damage.


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## xwhaler (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We are getting a real soaking rain today.  The good news is that it is not that warm, so hopefully it isn't doing too much damage.



Hoping for some snow on the back end tonight. Would like to show Catsup948 and OysterRiverColin the trees of Burke if possible this wknd.


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## Masskier (Dec 17, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Just a quick update on a few fronts:
> 
> first, I've been around the construction on the hotel quite a bit. It appears as though the wood framing of the bottom two floors on the east side has begun. Large shipments of wood arrived yesterday, and it appears the manpower has shifted to that side. I would gather they are trying to box in the entire first two floors before hard winter arrives so they can move the majority of construction indoors. Also, there appears to me no shortage of workers or activity. It certainly wouldn't pass my mind that they are 'slowing down' at all, based on what I have witnessed.
> 
> ...



The hotel has been full speed ahead since they started construction back in May.  At this point they are still ahead of schedule and will open next Dec.  Why anyone would believe the Hotel is not fully funded is absurd.  I mean, what would the reason be to start a $55 mil project without having the funds to complete it. It doesn't make any sense to build half of a hotel.   Why would the State or the eb5 investors allow that?  That would be a total failure, not only would the investors lose their money, but they wouldn't get their citizenship either.  

So the Hotel construction is not slowing down.
The reason why the Construction is further ahead on one side Vs the other is because this is the most efficient way to build it.
The decision on Bear Den has nothing to do with the Hotel lol...   

And everyone that says they care about Burke should be happy, because it is on its way to becoming a self sustaining 4 season resort.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Why anyone would believe the Hotel is not fully funded is absurd.



This statement is both laughable and insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.  
Here is what has become public: 
- As of April Burke was only 25% funded
- The Stateside project was delayed, and missed the delayed start date.
- AnC Bio was supposed to have broken ground this fall.
- Peak CM management was critical of the AnC Bio delay.
- The Newport Waterfront project fell apart.
- The Renaissance Block project Has not broken ground as of this point in time.
- Not a single stakeholder has made a statement indicating that more than 25% has been raised for Burke.
- Stenger has made statements indicating that competition for EB-5 investors has significantly increased.
- The Tram Haus investors made statements that might very well have deterred future investors.  

A reasonable person, with this information, would be concerned about the status of the hotel.  And that's all I am saying... that I am concerned.  



Masskier said:


> I mean, what would the reason be to start a $55 mil project without having the funds to complete it.


 I can think of a few reasons.  One reason might be to keep up appearances while trying desperately to raise funds for other projects.  Another reason may to be make the resort as attractive as possible to a prospective purchaser.  I'm not suggesting that these are good reasons, but they are reasons nonetheless.



Masskier said:


> It doesn't make any sense to build half of a hotel.


 Agreed.  I don't believe that's really going to happen.



Masskier said:


> Why would the State or the eb5 investors allow that?  That would be a total failure, not only would the investors lose their money, but they wouldn't get their citizenship either.


Could the state intervene?  Can the investors?  

You and I agree on one thing.  It would be absolutely reckless and irresponsible to begin construction of the hotel without assurances that the entirety of funds are lined up for completion of the project.

We appear to differ on one important matter.  I am of the opinion that there were insufficient EB-5 funds in place to complete the project at the time they broke ground.  You apparently believe that these funds would have been in place.

All I can say is that each and every prominent businessperson in this area that I speak with, other than those with an interest in the hotel, shares my concern.  Make of that what you will.

Masskier, for all of your stated connections, why don't you suggest to Stenger and/or Quiros that they confirm that the entirety of funding has been obtained?  I can assure you that such a statement would go a long way in dispensing with the concerns that the business community has.  What possible reason would they have to NOT make such an announcement?


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## Masskier (Dec 17, 2014)

You said
"We appear to differ on one important matter.  I am of the opinion that  there were insufficient EB-5 funds in place to complete the project at  the time they broke ground.  You apparently believe that these funds  would have been in place."

NO,  you swore up and down that they didn't have the funds to start the Hotel.  You even took Victory laps several times and insulted others that told you that the Hotel construction was starting in the spring.  I'm surprised you don't remember that.

Your logic is flawed.  Burke's hotel is a separate entity and has nothing to do with Jay or the Newport projects.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> The hotel has been full speed ahead since they started construction back in May.  At this point they are still ahead of schedule and will open next Dec.  Why anyone would believe the Hotel is not fully funded is absurd.  I mean, what would the reason be to start a $55 mil project without having the funds to complete it. It doesn't make any sense to build half of a hotel.   Why would the State or the eb5 investors allow that?  That would be a total failure, not only would the investors lose their money, but they wouldn't get their citizenship either.



Are you sure about that?  



> And everyone that says they care about Burke should be happy, because it is on its way to becoming a self sustaining 4 season resort.



I hope so.  But I think we all agree that there needs to be a major change in PR.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Your logic is flawed.  Burke's hotel is a separate entity and has nothing to do with Jay or the Newport projects.



Oh God here we go again.  :roll:  Yes, of course it is technically a different corporate entity, but you cannot deny that it is part of the big NEK EB-5 Initiative.  

It must be raining at Burke.....


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> It must be raining at Burke.....



Pouring (at least below 2000').


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Pouring (at least below 2000').



Hence the latest go-round here.  

Oh well it will snow again I'm sure.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> You said
> "We appear to differ on one important matter.  I am of the opinion that  there were insufficient EB-5 funds in place to complete the project at  the time they broke ground.  You apparently believe that these funds  would have been in place."
> 
> NO,  you swore up and down that they didn't have the funds to start the Hotel.  You even took Victory laps several times and insulted others that told you that the Hotel construction was starting in the spring.  I'm surprised you don't remember that.
> ...


Correction.  I did not believe that they would break ground because I did not believe that they had sufficient EB-5 funds in place to complete the hotel as of the time that they broke ground.  I stand by that opinion.  I will also point out that you have never disputed this - despite do so if you actually believed otherwise.  So, frankly, it appears that we agree on the following: 1) Construction began without the entirety of EB-5 funds in place to finish; and 2) It is reckless to start construction under those circumstances.  The only thing you have added to day is your opinion as to the latter.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> YBurke's hotel is a separate entity and has nothing to do with Jay or the Newport projects.


So you really expect us to believe that the fundraising people and procedures are completely distinct?  Give me a break.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2014)

One thing is for sure, if the hotel IS fully funded, Stenger et al are the worst PR/marketers on the planet. 

 If you even _suspect_ that there's an _inkling_ of doubt, AND you are indeed fully funded, just put out a 2 paragraph press release and put the matter quickly to bed.


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## mbedle (Dec 17, 2014)

According to this report - Burke has secured 100 million in funding for their projects. Not sure when this was written, but it discusses a June 2014 bill signage, which means it was prepared sometime after June 2014. So as far as the issue of if Burke has fully funded the hotel prior to breaking ground, who knows. But at least we know it is funded though completion. Also, wasn't groundbreaking for the resort on June 3, 2014?

http://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accd/...x G - Investments in Economic Development.pdf


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> One thing is for sure, if the hotel IS fully funded, Stenger et al are the worst PR/marketers on the planet.


That is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make.  When there are demonstrable issues with related projects, this is more true than ever.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that their failure to do so is really starting to have ripple effects in the local community.  Believe it or not, Masskier's dogmatic cheerleading doesn't seem to negate the concern that is out there.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

mbedle said:


> According to this report - Burke has secured 100 million in funding for their projects. Not sure when this was written, but it discusses a June 2014 bill signage, which means it was prepared sometime after June 2014. So as far as the issue of if Burke has fully funded the hotel prior to breaking ground, who knows. But at least we know it is funded though completion. Also, wasn't groundbreaking for the resort on June 3, 2014?
> 
> http://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accd/...x G - Investments in Economic Development.pdf


Did you not read the first line of the report?

_Below is a highlight of just a few of the economic development projects in Vermont that have
recently, or are slated to, received significant investment (more than $1 million)._


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## mbedle (Dec 17, 2014)

I did read the report and you will notice that "or are slated to" is included to list Mount Snow efforts to obtain funding. I doubt highly that the writter of the report would have used the word "raised" when discussing Burke and "being sought" when talking about Mount Snow. 



VTKilarney said:


> Did you not read the first line of the report?
> 
> _Below is a highlight of just a few of the economic development projects in Vermont that have
> recently, or are slated to, received significant investment (more than $1 million)._


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

mbedle said:


> I did read the report and you will notice that "or are slated to" is included to list Mount Snow efforts to obtain funding. I doubt highly that the writter of the report would have used the word "raised" when discussing Burke and "being sought" when talking about Mount Snow.


The report is poorly written.  If it were indeed correct, it states that Jay Peak did not raise anything through EB-5 after 2012, since as of late 2012 they had reported raising $275 million.  Maybe that's true, but I should hope it isn't.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Here is an interesting tidbit from the October Vermont Business Magazine regarding the status of the Burke hotel:
_Q Burke Mountain Resort:  

75% of the steel installation is complete. Wood construction will begin in 2-3 weeks.
Paving will begin on a portion of the Toll Road that runs up to Mid-Burke Lodge. A new road will be built to the new hotel and parking lot. Both will be paved.
At present there are 100-200 employees on the job each day primarily doing concrete work. As the project goes forward, the number of workers on site will increase to approximately 400.
Jerry Davis, President of PeakCM Construction and general contractor for the 180,000 square foot hotel and conference center, reports the project is ahead of schedule._

They also said that work would start on AnC Bio in October, for what it's worth.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> One thing is for sure, if the hotel IS fully funded, Stenger et al are the worst PR/marketers on the planet.
> 
> If you even _suspect_ that there's an _inkling_ of doubt, AND you are indeed fully funded, just put out a 2 paragraph press release and put the matter quickly to bed.



Historically Stenger has had one of the most well-oiled PR machines in the industry.  So what does that tell you about how things are probably going?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

mbedle said:


> According to this report - Burke has secured 100 million in funding for their projects. Not sure when this was written, but it discusses a June 2014 bill signage, which means it was prepared sometime after June 2014. So as far as the issue of if Burke has fully funded the hotel prior to breaking ground, who knows. But at least we know it is funded though completion. Also, wasn't groundbreaking for the resort on June 3, 2014?
> 
> http://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accd/...x G - Investments in Economic Development.pdf


The link is to an appendix that is attached to Vermont's CEDS.  The draft CEDS was posted for public review on June 1, 2014.  The governor signed off on the CEDS in July.  If we are to believe that the prospective clause in the appendix does not apply to Burke, and we believe as true Stenger's comment in April that Burke was 25% funded, this means that between April and July Burke raised approximately $73 million in EB-5 funds whereas only approximately $27 million had been raised prior to that time.  (This assumes a $108 million project, as has been repeatedly stated.)

If this is indeed the case, as the appendix would have us believe, I am truly shocked that Burke has been so tight lipped about this phenomenal achievement.  I'm especially shocked since Stenger spoke with the Burlington Free Press in an article that was printed on July 18, 2014.  The article was about Stenger pushing back after the Pomerleau debacle.  He made no mention in the article that Burke was 92.5 percent funded.  As a matter of fact, he gave no indication at all how much Burke was funded.  He did, however, specifically state that AnC Bio was 75% funded.  Seems like a real wasted opportunity to me.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> One thing is for sure, if the hotel IS fully funded, Stenger et al are the worst PR/marketers on the planet.
> 
> If you even _suspect_ that there's an _inkling_ of doubt, AND you are indeed fully funded, just put out a 2 paragraph press release and put the matter quickly to bed.


This was printed in the November 18th Caledonian Record article:

_Quiros says the project is in good shape. He discounted rumors of unpaid subcontractors and problems with hotel construction - scheduled to be complete by December, 2015. "They are ahead of schedule," he said, and there is plenty of money available to build the hotel. "They are happy... Everybody's happy," Quiros said._ (I added the underlining.)

To be quite clear, even if there is a shortfall in EB-5 funds, it is still quite possible that Quiros or some other source could pony up the remaining money.  We don't know if Ary's statement referred solely to EB-5 or to an aggregate of financing sources.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> One thing is for sure, if the hotel IS fully funded, Stenger et al are the worst PR/marketers on the planet.
> 
> If you even _suspect_ that there's an _inkling_ of doubt, AND you are indeed fully funded, just put out a 2 paragraph press release and put the matter quickly to bed.





VTKilarney said:


> That is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make.  When there are demonstrable issues with related projects, this is more true than ever.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that their failure to do so is really starting to have ripple effects in the local community.  Believe it or not, Masskier's dogmatic cheerleading doesn't seem to negate the concern that is out there.



You guys are too much.  Is there a hotel being built?  Yes.  That's enough for 99% of people in the world.  If I were Stenger, I wouldn't feel compelled to write a press release for a loud, negative, OCD 1% who have their doubts.   And to be honest, if Stenger came out and said, "We've got $60M in capital reserves for the hotel.  Hotel is projected to cost $55M, so we've secured an additional $5M for overages"; you all still might not believe him.  Hell, Massskier said over and over this spring, "Hotels on schedule to start construction, everything is fine."  You all said, over and over and over, "No it's not, No it's not." 

Hotel construction is happening; there's your press conference.  What's that saying?  Actions speak louder than words. 

There's a shopping plaza being built in my town right now by a large company.  They have cancelled other projects in recent years in surrounding communities.  Construction is going slow, but it's happening. I don't inspect one side of the building's progress vs. the other and wonder if that has to do with an unrelated announcement. I certainly don't question the funding as long as work continues nor do I expect the developer to write a story in the Sunday paper.  

Look, I'm as vocal as anyone about certain aspects of what's going on at Burke.  I hate the Q thing, their management hiring decisions are suspect and Ary has made an absolute ass of himself in front of the local media like no businessman I've ever seen.  He's truly the Dennis Rodman of the ski industry. 

However, right now as a Burke consumer, I'm more curious about day to day operations of the ski area.  I plan on going in January and I hope it's being run well so I have an enjoyable day.  I'll leave a note in the comment box on my way out the door saying the experience was great, but you're still arrogant fools for calling it Q Burke.

 But, the hotel construction is happening.  That's a dead issue.....until construction stops happening.  Then would be a good time to discuss funding.  By all means if you feel the need to keep this argument going on and on and on and on........have at it.  Just know 99% are reading this crap and thinking.....


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This was printed in the November 18th Caledonian Record article:
> 
> _Quiros says the project is in good shape. He discounted rumors of unpaid subcontractors and problems with hotel construction - scheduled to be complete by December, 2015. "They are ahead of schedule," he said, and there is plenty of money available to build the hotel. "They are happy... Everybody's happy," Quiros said._ (I added the underlining.)
> 
> To be quite clear, even if there is a shortfall in EB-5 funds, it is still quite possible that Quiros or some other source could pony up the remaining money.  We don't know if Ary's statement referred solely to EB-5 or to an aggregate of financing sources.



I'm sorry, but every time I hear that statement from the Cal Rec, I have to laugh.....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Trailboss,

I PMed you, but I think it's worth saying here.  To those of us who live in this region, the entirety of the EB-5 projects are a HUGE deal.  Right now, for example, the city of Newport has a vast part of its downtown core fenced up awaiting an EB-5 project coming through.  In a rural area with limited resources, there is a lot to be gained and a lot to be lost depending on what happens.


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## buellski (Dec 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


>



Amen


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 17, 2014)

For Newport in particular, this EB-5 issue could be a HUGE deal, since as you said, a lot of the downtown is wrapped up in it. However, at Burke it is just the building of a brand new Hotel at this point. So if things go south, Burke is still there and still has value.

Damp winter day up here...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Trailboss,
> 
> I PMed you, but I think it's worth saying here.  To those of us who live in this region, the entirety of the EB-5 projects are a HUGE deal.  Right now, for example, the city of Newport has a vast part of its downtown core fenced up awaiting an EB-5 project coming through.  In a rural area with limited resources, there is a lot to be gained and a lot to be lost depending on what happens.



I agree with you.  Are you talking about someone else?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree with you.  Are you talking about someone else?


Doh!  That was intended for Deadheadskier.


----------



## faQ (Dec 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You guys are too much.  Is there a hotel being built?  Yes.  That's enough for 99% of people in the world.  If I were Stenger, I wouldn't feel compelled to write a press release for a loud, negative, OCD 1% who have their doubts.   And to be honest, if Stenger came out and said, "We've got $60M in capital reserves for the hotel.  Hotel is projected to cost $55M, so we've secured an additional $5M for overages"; you all still might not believe him.  Hell, Massskier said over and over this spring, "Hotels on schedule to start construction, everything is fine."  You all said, over and over and over, "No it's not, No it's not."
> 
> Hotel construction is happening; there's your press conference.  What's that saying?  Actions speak louder than words.
> 
> ...






yep


----------



## drjeff (Dec 17, 2014)

Aren't the number of replies in this thread rapidly approaching the average number of annual skier/rider visits at Burke about now?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Aren't the number of replies in this thread rapidly approaching the average number of annual skier/rider visits at Burke about now?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Aren't the number of replies in this thread rapidly approaching the average number of annual skier/rider visits at Burke about now?



Perhaps, but not quite as long yet as the typical lift line at Stratton or Mt Snow.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Aren't the number of replies in this thread rapidly approaching the average number of annual skier/rider visits at Burke about now?


3.46 times the number of opening day skiers.  ;-)


----------



## xwhaler (Dec 17, 2014)

Well said DHS, you said what many of us have been thinking for a while I'm sure on this thread. 

I know that I'm looking forward to my day at Burke this Saturday. I'm most adept at evaluating how their on mountain product is much more than I am in speculating on EB-5 funding and construction strategies.
So my focus will be on enjoying my ski day and seeing how I can review how well the trails are groomed, how the snow surfaces are, how the beer/food tastes in the Bear Den, and the lift lines.

That's all I really care about at this point in time----once the hotel is built I look forward to giving that a review too!


----------



## drjeff (Dec 17, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Perhaps, but not quite as long yet as the typical lift line at Stratton or Mt Snow.



That's why I ride atypical lifts to match my atypical personalty!   :lol:


----------



## drjeff (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> 3.46 times the number of opening day skiers.  ;-)



:lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Still raining here.  Enough already!


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Still raining here.  Enough already!



3-6" tonight through tomorrow night, perhaps more. Book it...


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> 3-6" tonight through tomorrow night, perhaps more. Book it...


Weather channel says less than an inch for St. Johnsbury.  But there is a winter weather advisory that covers Coos County, NH that calls for 3-5 inches.  Elevation may be critical.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Weather channel says less than an inch for St. Johnsbury.  But there is a winter weather advisory that covers Coos County, NH that calls for 3-5 inches.  Elevation may be critical.



It's an upslope event. The only critical factor is that the precip can make it through the spine. Because the wind direction is NW and not WNW, we have a good chance of getting some of it. In fact, check out the Burlington NWS forecast, we are in the darker blue area in far northeast Caledonia...

There are even some models calling for 8"+ but those tend to overdo these events...


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Looking at the bigger picture, you know all of those old people who tell you how much more it snowed in the old days?  In this neck of the woods, at least, they are full of crap.



I'd be curious to know if the average snow pack depth has changed over the years due to a changed freeze-thaw cycle.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Looking at the bigger picture, you know all of those old people who tell you how much more it snowed in the old days?  In this neck of the woods, at least, they are full of crap.
> 
> View attachment 14671



St J is an infamous snow hole. Climb up into Danville, Walden or Peacham to the west or Sheffield, Wheelock or parts of Burke to the north and annual snowfall goes up ~60-80%.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> St J is an infamous snow hole. Climb up into Danville, Walden or Peacham to the west or Sheffield, Wheelock or parts of Burke to the north and annual snowfall goes up ~60-80%.


I was inferring that those locations tracked similarly to St. Johnsbury, just with higher overall totals.  Wheelock, up on the ridge, gets a TON of snow.  The snow tapers off quite a bit in Lunenburg and Guildhall thanks to the shadow of the White Mountains.  They often have half of what St. Johnsbury has in those towns.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I was inferring that those locations tracked similarly to St. Johnsbury, just with higher overall totals.  Wheelock has DEEP snow, and Walden has some serious snow as well.  The snow tapers off quite a bit in Lunenburg and Guildhall thanks to the shadow of the White Mountains.  They often have half of what St. Johnsbury has in those towns.



Gotcha. And I agree, the data hurts their argument, unless as you suggested it just stayed longer on the ground and the base packed itself up more back then, to give everyone that illusion...I'm sure you could look at max/min temps and rainfall data to figure that one out.


----------



## yeggous (Dec 17, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Looking at the bigger picture, you know all of those old people who tell you how much more it snowed in the old days?  In this neck of the woods, at least, they are full of crap.
> 
> View attachment 14671
> 
> I'd be curious to know if the average snow pack depth has changed over the years due to a changed freeze-thaw cycle.



I just saw a talk today that focused on this very issue. It turns out to be regionally dependent. There short of it is that there is no significant change in mid winter but a noticeable decease in the shoulder months.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Masskier (Dec 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You guys are too much.  Is there a hotel being built?  Yes.  That's enough for 99% of people in the world.  If I were Stenger, I wouldn't feel compelled to write a press release for a loud, negative, OCD 1% who have their doubts.   And to be honest, if Stenger came out and said, "We've got $60M in capital reserves for the hotel.  Hotel is projected to cost $55M, so we've secured an additional $5M for overages"; you all still might not believe him.  Hell, Massskier said over and over this spring, "Hotels on schedule to start construction, everything is fine."  You all said, over and over and over, "No it's not, No it's not."
> 
> Hotel construction is happening; there's your press conference.  What's that saying?  Actions speak louder than words.
> 
> ...



Well said, and too funny


----------



## Masskier (Dec 17, 2014)

Snowing at mid Burke  4:45 PM


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Well said, and too funny



I didn't realize that you viewed Ary as the Dennis Rodman of the ski industry.   Sanity prevails.   


.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 17, 2014)

I dont think Dennis Rodman is a great comparison really, because in reality, he was actually a decent basketball player.....


----------



## WWF-VT (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Snowing at mid Burke  4:45 PM



What's the weather at Q Burke ?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> I dont think Dennis Rodman is a great comparison really, because in reality, he was actually a decent basketball player.....



....right.  mainly referring to Rodman's media debacle with the whole N. Korea thing.  It was astonishing how awful Rodman was with the media regarding that and Ary's foot in mouth comments have been equally bad at times.


----------



## Masskier (Dec 17, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> What's the weather at Q Burke ?



9:10 PM

Lower Base lodge  33 light rain with a little snow mixing in 
Turns to snow at BMA
Mid Burke 32 with light snow


----------



## WWF-VT (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> 9:10 PM
> 
> Lower Base lodge  33 light rain with a little snow mixing in
> Turns to snow at BMA
> Mid Burke 32 with light snow



Is Mid Burke the same place as Mid Q Burke ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

Masskier said:


> 9:10 PM
> 
> Lower Base lodge  33 light rain with a little snow mixing in
> Turns to snow at BMA
> Mid Burke 32 with light snow



POW day!!!!!




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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Is Mid Burke the same place as Mid Q Burke ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Is Mid Burke the same place as Mid Q Burke ?


Are you sure it isn't Q Mid Burke?


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 18, 2014)

I'd estimate somewhere between 2-3" overnight (between Sherburne and Mid-burke lodge).


----------



## xwhaler (Dec 18, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I'd estimate somewhere between 2-3" overnight (between Sherburne and Mid-burke lodge).



Thats good to hear. Burke website only reported 1" so perhaps there's a bit more up there. 
BW reported 5" and Cannon at 4" so Burke definitely was not as fortunate this time.


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Looking at the bigger picture, you know all of those old people who tell you how much more it snowed in the old days?  In this neck of the woods, at least, they are full of crap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is very nice example of a shift in data due to equipment change around 1970.  Very difficult to trust these long historical records.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> This is very nice example of a shift in data due to equipment change around 1970.


For those of us that are laypersons, what does this mean?


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> For those of us that are laypersons, what does this mean?



The sudden apparent increase in snow total in the 1970-2013 is likely an artifact due to equipment/methodology/location change.

Having said that, even when correcting for this jump, there is no apparent decrease in snow totals, thus validating your point, at least for this station.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> The sudden apparent increase in snow total in the 1970-2013 is likely *an artifact due to equipment/methodology/location change.*



Glad to hear you agree that that can be a statistically significant factor that should be taken into account.


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 18, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Glad to hear you agree that that can be a statistically significant factor that should be taken into account.



No need to do testing to state that there is a statistically significant shift in there.  There are instances where sudden shifts like these are linked to climate natural variability, but most of the times they're not.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2014)

St. Johnsbury weather data has been recorded by the same facility since the mid-1800s.  So it most likely not a location issue.

Why do you presume that the increase is the result of a methodology or equipment change rather than an actual increase in snowfall?  I'd much prefer that more snow is falling, after all.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2014)

FYI, there is a time frame for the construction of the hotel that is outlined starting on page 156 of this document:
http://www.globaldetailinginc.com/d...HC Bid Book & Documents Complete - 130523.pdf

The timeline is for a 2013 construction start, but it's easy enough to adjust for the actual start of construction.  If I am reading this correctly, construction started about a month earlier than this document contemplates.  If that is correct, then the exterior of the hotel is not scheduled to be completed until August, 2015.

A lot of other drawings, etc can be found here:
http://www.globaldetailinginc.com/drawings/Jeffordssteel/Q Burke Mtn Resort/QBHC - To Quote/


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## Masskier (Dec 18, 2014)

Some updated photos of the progress on the Hotel


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## SkiRaceParent (Dec 18, 2014)

If the project was funded, wouldn't someone be on one of the ladders? :wink:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2014)

Masskier must have told them last night to expect a POW day, so they're probably out skiing.  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> If the project was funded, wouldn't someone be on one of the ladders? :wink:



Exactly!  :lol:


----------



## fbrissette (Dec 18, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> St. Johnsbury weather data has been recorded by the same facility since the mid-1800s.  So it most likely not a location issue.
> 
> Why do you presume that the increase is the result of a methodology or equipment change rather than an actual increase in snowfall?  I'd much prefer that more snow is falling, after all.



I would much rather prefer it is a real increase in snowfall.  However, if it is indeed due to the climate, you would expect similar changes regionally and it is not something I have seen in Southern Quebec.  In fact in Southern Quebec, we have statistically valid increasing trends in winter flows and earlier spring floods which are both compatible with a thinner snowpack.

The fact that it is in the same facility does not mean it is not location dependent.   Changes in the surroundings (new buildings, tree growth) could have an impact.  There was equipment changes for sure throughout the years.   Snow is difficult to measure.  They likely measure equivalent liquid precipitation (snow is melted within the rain gauge to measure liquid precip) and snow is reconstructed using temperatures.  If so, a change in temperature measurement could be to blame.  May be a different algorithm was introduced.  There could be lots of reason for the shift, including the climate.   However, in most cases, sudden shifts like this (stationary on either side) are not climate related.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2014)

The forecasters at the Fairbanks Museum are predicting that the next storm will be a rain event.  Let's hope the forecast changes, or that they can make some serious snow prior to the rain.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2014)

Despite Masskier's POW alert, it looks like there are 13 fewer trails open after the last storm.  I'm really kicking myself for not getting out early in the week, but it just wasn't viable for a workload standpoint.

Right now there is only one man-made snow way down the main mountain.  They need to get cranking on the snowmaking for the Christmas holiday.  I'd love to hear reports of snow guns blowing if anyone sees that happening.


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## Masskier (Dec 19, 2014)

Yesterday 41 trails were open, today there are 39.  Skiing continues to be great for this time of the year. (legs are really sore today) My concern is Wednesday's storm.  Haven't heard about a POW alert.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The forecasters at the Fairbanks Museum are predicting that the next storm will be a rain event.  Let's hope the forecast changes, or that they can make some serious snow prior to the rain.



Well not to be a naysayer, but anecdotally I recall a rain event occurring in VT usually right before the holiday.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Well not to be a naysayer, but anecdotally I recall a rain event occurring in VT usually right before the holiday.


What's frustrating is that we haven't had a good stretch of snowmaking temps when they are most needed.  The areas that gambled on blowing snow later with a focus on ramping up in mid to late December have got to be regretting that decision.


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## Smellytele (Dec 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What's frustrating is that we haven't had a good stretch of snowmaking temps when they are most needed.  The areas that gambled on blowing snow later with a focus on ramping up in mid to late December have got to be regretting that decision.



not the ones that got snow


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> not the ones that got snow


Very true.  Central Vermont is in fine shape.  Many resorts farther east were not nearly as lucky.


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## Cannonball (Dec 19, 2014)

Do these still qualify as Big Burke announcements?  Maybe we can start up a Burke Conditions thread.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Do these still qualify as Big Burke announcements?  Maybe we can start up a Burke Conditions thread.


I think that this thread has morphed into all things Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 19, 2014)

I like to think of it as the "Triple B" thread.

Busy Bodies of Burke


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## Edd (Dec 19, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> I like to think of it as the "Triple B" thread.
> 
> Busy Bodies of Burke



She hawt.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2014)

According to Facebook, they are blowing snow on the lower mountain.


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## zeke (Dec 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> ....right.  mainly referring to Rodman's media debacle with the whole N. Korea thing.  It was astonishing how awful Rodman was with the media regarding that and Ary's foot in mouth comments have been equally bad at times.



i think maybe Ary is being tied to the wrong side of that. 

from being handed the reins with no experience or ability, to lashing out at long-time partners for no apparent reason (KT, graham family, the town), to the palpable narcissism and the blatant lies (fully staffed ,yet over a dozen open positions including most management, etc) all leading to the completely delusional "they're happy. everyone's happy" it's obvious to me he's less rodman and more this. . .


kim jung-Q, glorious leader of q-burke mountain, resort, hotel and conference center, bike park and soon . . . the world


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2014)

zeke said:


> i think maybe Ary is being tied to the wrong side of that.
> 
> from being handed the reins with no experience or ability, to lashing out at long-time partners for no apparent reason (KT, graham family, the town), to the palpable narcissism and the blatant lies (fully staffed ,yet over a dozen open positions including most management, etc) all leading to the completely delusional "they're happy. everyone's happy" it's obvious to me he's less rodman and more this. . .
> View attachment 14715
> ...



AZ will soon be hacked 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2014)

There's some visible progress on the hotel with the next floor going up on the west wing.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 25, 2014)

Down to 8 trails.  Pray for snow!


.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Down to 8 trails.  Pray for snow!
> 
> 
> .



Yikes 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 28, 2014)

When the temps get cold enough for snow making, the focus will be on the lower (Sherburne) hill.  Only after they've worked on that section will they turn to Lower Willoughby.  

So for the next few days, it appears that there will be minimal improvement in coverage on the main mountain, with at best improving from 1.0 to 1.5 ways to get down from the Mid Burke Express.  

As I said earlier, pray for snow.  They need it badly.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 29, 2014)

Got my new toy for Christmas  Damn sharp.

From my deck five miles away (you can almost read the words on the side of the lift terminal).


Burke Summit Christmas Morning by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


Last Friday, I started my ski season by making only two runs at the very end of the day down the scraped to base ice pack that was Willoughby/Lower Warrens. I basically just wanted to drag my camera up the mountain to see if I could get some pictures. :razz:






























Bonus points if you can tell me where this is.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

That last picture looks like SJA. 


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> That last picture looks like SJA.


The Academy along with the steeples and cupolas of the buildings on Main St of St Johnsbury.

So then smarty pants, what mountain is it?


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## dlague (Dec 29, 2014)

The picture of the Birches really pops!


----------



## the original trailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

What is your new toy ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

The last picture definitely has SJA in the foreground.  It is essentially looking down Main Street.  

The better question is where was the picture taken from?  My best guess is the interstate, but I can't recall seeing Burke Mountain from the interstate at that spot.

Edit:  Whoops!  I see that you already answered what the picture was.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 29, 2014)

the original trailboss said:


> What is your new toy ?



70-200 2.8 IS lens


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

Q Burke got stung by social media.  They posted the following to their Facebook page today:

We're all about that base! Snow making round the clock on Dashney Mile, High Meadows Pass and Lower Willoughby to get you grooving and moving as our Holiday week continues. Right now we are mostly sunny with passing clouds and expecting a high of 24. Dress warm! It's chilly, but just how we like it!

The comments were the interesting part:

Patty Frechette: I was on the trails this morning and saw no guns blowing. Only on Dashney Mile.

Gerard Hoar: My on-site reporter says that you had 2 guns on at 9 AM and nothing now at 11.45AM.

Gerard Hoar: Nothing on Lower Willoughby yet. Why say it?

Patty Frechette: Round the clock on Lower Willoughby? ....well it hasn't started yet. Let's see many more guns. Please.


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## Tin (Dec 29, 2014)

Anyone posted the Kim-Jung-Q pic on FB yet? It should be the response whenever they say they're making snow.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

Q Burke responded in the comments section to "clarify" their post:

Snow making will continue as long as temps are cold. Dashney Mile first followed by High Meadows Pass and then on to Lower Willoughby. Be sure to check our daily snow reports for the latest updates. Thx to everyone that hit the slopes today! It was bitter...but definitely sweet. See you in the morning!

This definitely is evidence that they can't blow much snow at one time.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This definitely is evidence that they can't blow much snow at one time.


A problem that a new hotel won't fix.


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## dlague (Dec 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke responded in the comments section to "clarify" their post:
> 
> Snow making will continue as long as temps are cold. Dashney Mile first followed by High Meadows Pass and then on to Lower Willoughby. Be sure to check our daily snow reports for the latest updates. Thx to everyone that hit the slopes today! It was bitter...but definitely sweet. See you in the morning!
> 
> This definitely is evidence that they can't blow much snow at one time.



Not good!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke responded in the comments section to "clarify" their post:
> 
> Snow making will continue as long as temps are cold. Dashney Mile first followed by High Meadows Pass and then on to Lower Willoughby. Be sure to check our daily snow reports for the latest updates. Thx to everyone that hit the slopes today! It was bitter...but definitely sweet. See you in the morning!
> 
> This definitely is evidence that they can't blow much snow at one time.



I'm not physically there right now, but it could be that the wet bulb temps are just too high.  I think it is most likely that they have a skeleton crew more than anything else and he cut the snowmaking budget.  

I say that because it was not more than two years ago when Burke was crowing about "Marge" the new pump and how it was going to make a big difference.  They've added a lot of capacity....IIRC they could normally blow at least two routes in the last few years if needed.  

But yes, if this was 2015 you'd have a lot of pissed off hotel guests vowing not to come back because of bad conditions.  How does that make sense?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> 70-200 2.8 IS lens



Nice!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Academy along with the steeples and cupolas of the buildings on Main St of St Johnsbury.
> 
> So then smarty pants, what mountain is it?



Well I'd say Burke, but the angle just looks weird.....and that subpeak off to the left seems out of place.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not physically there right now, but it could be that the wet bulb temps are just too high.  I think it is most likely that they have a skeleton crew more than anything else and he cut the snowmaking budget.
> 
> I say that because it was not more than two years ago when Burke was crowing about "Marge" the new pump and how it was going to make a big difference.  They've added a lot of capacity....IIRC they could normally blow at least two routes in the last few years if needed.
> 
> But yes, if this was 2015 you'd have a lot of pissed off hotel guests vowing not to come back because of bad conditions.  How does that make sense?


I don't think it has anything to do with wet bulb temp based on how Bretton Woods is blowing snow like crazy.  

If they want the hotel to be taken seriously, they really need to up their snow making game.  

I don't fault them for what the weather has done.  They had no control over that.  But their game plan to recover is this:
1) Make snow on a terrain park.
2) Make snow on a lower mountain trail that already has sufficient snow cover.
3) Then, and only then, make snow on only about 50% of one single way down the main mountain.

So if we are lucky and everything goes according to plan, later in the week there will be snow freshened on lower Willoughby while everything else on the main mountain is a sheet of ice.  That's our best case scenario.  Oy vey.

That's a joke.  There is simply no other way to put it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with wet bulb temp based on how Bretton Woods is blowing snow like crazy.
> 
> If they want the hotel to be taken seriously, they really need to up their snow making game.
> 
> ...



OK.  Then weather is not the issue, so that means staff and money.  I think it's a safe bet that those are the real reasons why they are not working their a$$es off during this "must succeed" week for the business.  Last year they blew two out of three key holiday periods and then lucked out with Presidents' Week.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Then weather is not the issue, so that means staff and money.


 Or is it a capacity issue because of insufficient compressors or something like that?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2014)

This website confirms that the issue is definitely not wet bulb temperature:
http://www.snowathome.com/weather/snow1.php?location=05819&submit=GO


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not physically there right now, but it could be that the wet bulb temps are just too high.


Part of the conditions report from another area:

"more than 200 snow guns are lit"


----------



## the original trailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

I think you will find that lack of air capacity (only Marge, no rental compressors and no Marge II that was hinted at two years ago) is a major factor right now. Even with "cold-enough" temps, they can only blow so much with Marge.


----------



## the original trailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> 70-200 2.8 IS lens



2.8 - Wow, that's fast !


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

I just pulled up an article from 2012 that talks about the installation of Marge.  It says that Marge is an 800 horsepower compressor.  An audit of ski area energy use performed by Efficiency Vermont says the following: "The typical compressed air plant for snow making operations that use internal mix air/water guns requires between 500 HP for the smallest ski facilities to greater than 10,000 HP for the larger facilities."

I don't know if Burke uses internal mix air/water guns, but this at least gives you an idea of their compressor capacity.  This suggests that lack of compressor horsepower is why we are seeing them limping (at best) along trying to recover.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Well I'd say Burke, but the angle just looks weird.....and that subpeak off to the left seems out of place.


It is Bald Mtn. About 24 miles away from downtown St J.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I just pulled up an article from 2012 that talks about the installation of Marge.  It says that Marge is an 800 horsepower compressor.  An audit of ski area energy use performed by Efficiency Vermont says the following: "The typical compressed air plant for snow making operations that use internal mix air/water guns requires between 500 HP for the smallest ski facilities to greater than 10,000 HP for the larger facilities."
> 
> I don't know if Burke uses internal mix air/water guns, but this at least gives you an idea of their compressor capacity.  This suggests that lack of compressor horsepower is why we are seeing them limping (at best) along trying to recover.



No rental compressors and only 800 hp of power. That's terrible. Like 1980 terrible. 


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----------



## burski (Dec 30, 2014)

For comparison Burke used to rent five, 400 hp compressors in the past for  snowmaking - 2,000 hp of total air in the past vs today's firepower of 800  hp.  These guys just don't get how to operate a ski area - $50 million  for a hotel but can't spare a few thousand for snowmaking....


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

Did they buy a bunch of new portable fan guns? Seems they had a few pics of them early on. Onboard compressors must have eliminated the need for all that extra compressor capacity


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Some more Facebook antics.  

This morning, Q Burke posted the following:
What a BEAUTIFUL morning and it's only expected to get better. Snow making continues on Dashney Mile with temps just right to build that base. Photo taken this morning heading down Upper Willoughby....the corduroy is waiting. Let's get to it!

So far there is one response to the post:
Your opportunity to build the base over the natural snow before the Xmas thaw was completely wasted. You have the third lowest trail count in VT right ahead of Queechee Ski Area and Suicide Six.

But do Quechee and Suicide Six have a $55 million hotel???????


----------



## burski (Dec 30, 2014)

I believe they have a whopping total of 2 fan guns (this is not new Burke has always rented or demo'd fan guns in the past) - so no increase there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Patrick Bradley, the Events Coordinator at Burke had an interesting response to the Facebook comment.  He posted this, with nothing more:

View attachment 14859






A Facebook account with the name "Burke Vermont" posted the following comment:

Will you be renting compressors so that you can make more snow during this cold spell?

Call me pessimistic, but I'm willing to be the answer is "no".

In all seriousness, won't they have to rectify this situation if they expect the hotel to be taken seriously?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Did they buy a bunch of new portable fan guns? Seems they had a few pics of them early on. Onboard compressors must have eliminated the need for all that extra compressor capacity



They still are primarily a water/compressed air system though.  They have electric only at a few places near the base areas.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Patrick Bradley, the Events Coordinator at Burke had an interesting response to the Facebook comment.  He posted this, with nothing more:
> 
> View attachment 14859
> 
> ...


\

Amateur hour.  Pure amateur hour.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

You know it's bad when even Masskier can't make up something good to say.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Interesting, the "You Mad Bro?" meme appears to have mysteriously disappeared from the Facebook page.  Someone pointed out in the same thread that the person who posted it was the Events Coordinator.  That might have had something to do with it.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 30, 2014)

Did Burke not take part in the Efficiency Vermont program to purchase low-e guns at a reduced cost? Seems like almost every other ski area in VT. did.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Did Burke not take part in the Efficiency Vermont program to purchase low-e guns at a reduced cost? Seems like almost every other ski area in VT. did.


They installed 26 new low-e guns over the summer.  Compare that to Bromley's 78, Okemo's 100, Stratton's 350, Smuggs 400, and Jay Peak's 42.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

So I diplomatically responded to Patrick's comment by saying that they need to improve their snowmaking and PR with their guests and it was deleted.  Classy.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2014)

burski said:


> For comparison Burke used to rent five, 400 hp compressors in the past for  snowmaking - 2,000 hp of total air in the past vs today's firepower of 800  hp.  These guys just don't get how to operate a ski area - $50 million  for a hotel but can't spare a few thousand for snowmaking....



Maybe they should have built a $40M hotel and dumped $10M into on mountain improvements and experienced management to run the place.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They installed 26 new low-e guns.


Considering other areas purchased hundreds that's not a very significant number.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Considering other areas purchased hundreds that's not a very significant number.


Do we even know where on the hill they are located?  My guess is on the lower mountain, but I really don't know.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe they should have built a $40M hotel and dumped $10M into on mountain improvements and experienced management to run the place.



Bingo.  They broke something that was working fine.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Considering other areas purchased hundreds that's not a very significant number.



26 or 200 ends up with the same result; they don't have the capacity now to RUN those guns.  Shear stupidity.


----------



## WoodCore (Dec 30, 2014)

Pretty sad when Burke's snowmaking effort this year is almost on par with Magic Mtn.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

WoodCore said:


> Pretty sad when Burke's snowmaking effort this year is almost on par with Magic Mtn.



If not less.  They used to be able to light up many more guns if needed.  Now folks are paying more and getting less.  How is that progress?


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2014)

Only thing I can say for those that call Burke home is they make an appropriate fix like Wildcat did after last year's debacle.  They sunk $2M into snowmaking.  Burke is a similar sized area.  I hope they are at the planning table now and planning for the off season.  Likewise they should be on an apologizing PR campaign to their customers.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> So I diplomatically responded to Patrick's comment by saying that they need to improve their snowmaking and PR with their guests and it was deleted.  Classy.



Still there I believe, the meme is gone though


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Let's be positive about this. At least the hotel construction will not be delayed by man-made snow being deposited on the construction site.


.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They installed 26 new low-e guns over the summer.  Compare that to Bromley's 78, Okemo's 100, Stratton's 350, Smuggs 400, and Jay Peak's 42.



Almost 400 at Killington...

351 at Sugarbush


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2014)

But, but, but...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Let's be positive about this. At least the hotel construction will not be delayed by man-made snow being deposited on the construction site.
> 
> 
> .



Absolutely.  Did they remove the compressor shed that is beside the Hotel site?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)




----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Absolutely.  Did they remove the compressor shed that is beside the Hotel site?



Yes, that shed where they parked the generators is gone.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> But, but, but...



I think that is the comment of 2014!  :lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yes, that shed where they parked the generators is gone.



Well that seals the deal for this season.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

I'd sure be mad if I sprung for a full priced season pass...


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'd sure be mad if I sprung for a full priced season pass...



That's me!


.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That's me!



Next time, better hold out for one of their "limited time/once in a blue moon" (every other week) discounted passes!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Next time, better hold out for one of their "limited time/once in a blue moon" (every other week) discounted passes!



I got the early bird pass because I was led to believe that the price would go up and not be discounted nearly every Thursday.   


.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

It's too bad really, if they just spend a few bucks up front, and put a all-around decent product out there, word will get around and they'd never have a problem filling the place. It's a SKI RESORT!! Provide and market the SKIING! I don't care what's for supper at the Tamarack Grill, or what band or comedy show is upcoming... show me SKIING & RIDING! How hard it it to figure out??  



> One "Aww shit" takes away Five "Attaboys"!!!


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 30, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> It's too bad really, if they just spend a few bucks up front, and put a all-around decent product out there, word will get around and they'd never have a problem filling the place. It's a SKI RESORT!! Provide and market the SKIING! I don't care what's for supper at the Tamarack Grill, or what band or comedy show is upcoming... show me SKIING & RIDING! How hard it it to figure out??



They don't necessarily need to bring anyone in to have a comedy show. It's currently going on.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 30, 2014)

Magic is doing the same thing, short term cash flow thinking is going to burn them in the long run. You cant run a ski area effectively in the same fashion someone would live paycheck to paycheck.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

The good news is that the "You Mad Bro" meme has been taken down; perhaps in part because of my comment made in response.  

I'd be a bit more understanding and forgiving if Q was blowing snow like crazy, was trying to recover from the event, and was trying to put out a good ski product.  Instead they are falling flat on their face which is understandable because he has cut off Burke's legs by not having compressors at the ready.  The downright assault on locals and harsh response to constructive criticism does not sound like someone who has "a deep hospitality background and a get-your-hands dirty ethic".  And that is his quote, not mine.

It is not too late to turn things around.  Send Q Jr. to the airplane manufacturing company.  Quietly hire a REAL management team that has SOME idea about ski area operations and leave them alone.  Hell, just send some of the JPR team down.  Do something.  Just don't keep doing what Ascutney's owners did by using the Resort to inflate their ego and to make "them" the product because clearly folks don't like the Q's.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Here is an interesting comment that Q Burke posted to its Facebook page on October 22, 2012 when they posted a photo of Marge:
In the past we rented 5 diesel compressors, this electric compressor has about the same capacity of 3 diesel machines, so this year we will only rent 2 diesels and use the electric as the primary compressor.

I wonder who made the decision to discontinue the compressor rentals that were needed just to keep snowmaking capacity at the same level as prior management had felt was necessary?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The good news is that the "You Mad Bro" meme has been taken down; perhaps in part because of my comment made in response.


  I think it was taken down because it was embarrassingly idiotic to put up in the first place.



thetrailboss said:


> I'd be a bit more understanding and forgiving if Q was blowing snow like crazy, was trying to recover from the event, and was trying to put out a good ski product.


 With what????  I suspect that they are running at full capacity with what they have on hand.  Somewhere along the way management under Quiros decided to have LESS snowmaking capacity (as far as compressors are concerned) than they had in the past.  In other words, they made a conscious decision to take a step BACKWARD.  We are now seeing the stupidity of that decision.  It's more surprising that we are seeing it this year when you realize how inadequate snowmaking was during the first half of the last ski season. 



thetrailboss said:


> It is not too late to turn things around.  Send Q Jr. to the airplane manufacturing company.  Quietly hire a REAL management team that has SOME idea about ski area operations and leave them alone.  Hell, just send some of the JPR team down.  Do something.  Just don't keep doing what Ascutney's owners did by using the Resort to inflate their ego and to make "them" the product because clearly folks don't like the Q's.


At a bare minimum, they need to increase their snowmaking capacity during the off-season and be loud and clear that they have done so.  If they don't, they risk a negative impact on hotel occupancy during the first half of the season.  This problem also affects condo values, local businesses, etc.  At some point they need to stop relying on BMA and condo owners to bring bodies to the mountain.  They need to learn how to walk on their own.  Cutting snowmaking capacity after a dismal start to the previous season isn't how you do it.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

This picture that was posted by a ski area guest on Facebook really shows the problem.  The whole east side of the mountain is cut off from the MBX and snowmaking in this area isn't even in the plans that have been announced.

View attachment 14869


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> This picture that was posted by a ski area guest on Facebook really shows the problem.  The whole east side of the mountain is cut off from the MBX and snowmaking in this area isn't even in the plans that have been announced.
> 
> View attachment 14869



OK, THAT is unacceptable right there.  Wow.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> With what????  I suspect that they are running at full capacity with what they have on hand.  Somewhere along the way management under Quiros decided to have LESS snowmaking capacity (as far as compressors are concerned) than they had in the past.  In other words, they made a conscious decision to take a step BACKWARD.  We are now seeing the stupidity of that decision.  It's more surprising that we are seeing it this year when you realize how inadequate snowmaking was during the first half of the last ski season.



I'd be a bit more :roll: instead of :x with their idiocy if they HAD the same compressor power and staffing as before.  I might just say that he is an idiot, but the ski area is at least on par with what they were.  Now they are back to before 1995 or so at least.  Sheer stupidity.  



> At a bare minimum, they need to increase their snowmaking capacity during the off-season and be loud and clear that they have done so.  If they don't, they risk a negative impact on hotel occupancy during the first half of the season.  This problem also affects condo values, local businesses, etc.  At some point they need to stop relying on BMA and condo owners to bring bodies to the mountain.  They need to learn how to walk on their own.  Cutting snowmaking capacity after a dismal start to the previous season isn't how you do it.



Well, they need to REPLACE what they LOST and THEN increase capacity before they have anything to crow about.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2014)

They've got a Grateful Dead cover band playing on NYE.  That would've been right up my alley if the skiing was any good there right now.  :lol:  

Oh well.  Hold onto my voucher until later in the season and hope for the best in terms of natural.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2014)

The thing with Burke is that it take relatively little natural snow to open quite a few trails. It may be management made a decision to "save money" by gambling on nature. 
Unfortunately, mother nature is finicky and has more often than not melted the natural down to ice at least once a winter over the years. 
Any New England ski area that thinks it can get by on natural snow is setting itself up for disaster (although MRG actually does surprisingly well with this strategy  ) .


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## Tin (Dec 30, 2014)

Bad Lucky Ary...


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> 70-200 2.8 IS lens


First, your picture of St. Johnsbury is incredible.  Second, that camera lens costs more than the GDP of Burkina Faso.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> First, your picture of St. Johnsbury is incredible.  Second, that camera lens costs more than the GDP of Burkina Faso.



If it is the Canon one, they are not that badly priced.  I have a 55-200 mm IS lens and it is nice but not that expensive.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Some good and bad news from Facebook land.  

The good news is that Burke is taking a more conciliatory tone in their posts.  They just posted this:
THANK YOU to all the skiers and riders that bundled up and enjoyed our mountain today! We appreciate everyone's patience as we continue our snow making efforts to recover from the wet weather and warmer temps we experienced until this past Sunday. Dashney Mile has had it's fill and we will be moving our equipment over to Binney Lane and then on to Lower Willoughby. We'll be in touch tomorrow with a fresh update - good night!

The bad news is that the most recently announced snowmaking plans were that the guns would be lit on Lower Willoughby after they were on Dashney Mile.  Apparently they have decided to focus on Binney Lane before moving on to Lower Willoughby.  

So what does this mean?  
(a) For a while longer there will be absolutely no snow whatsoever refreshed on a trail that gets you down the main mountain; and
(b) They are focusing on a FOURTH way down the lower mountain while there is still only ONE way down the main mountain.  While I fully appreciate that Binney Lane needs snow (see the picture in my trip report), I'm perplexed as to why they view it as a priority with so many other trails that are in desperate need for snow.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Some good and bad news from Facebook land.
> 
> The good news is that Burke is taking a more conciliatory tone in their posts.  They just posted this:
> THANK YOU to all the skiers and riders that bundled up and enjoyed our mountain today! We appreciate everyone's patience as we continue our snow making efforts to recover from the wet weather and warmer temps we experienced until this past Sunday. Dashney Mile has had it's fill and we will be moving our equipment over to Binney Lane and then on to Lower Willoughby. We'll be in touch tomorrow with a fresh update - good night!
> ...



Before 2012 they could blow in BOTH areas.


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## halfpintvt (Dec 30, 2014)

If you build it, will they come? Not unless you have SNOW! Q-Burke, it's time to rent some compressors and start blowing some cold air!


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## freeski (Dec 30, 2014)

Man, that's a nice staircase. They must be building a ski jump.

edit: Sorry I meant Q-jump.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

halfpintvt said:


> Got Snow? Not so much! If you build it, will they come?



The building hides one's view of the ski trails and lack of Q-Snow (R).  Mission accomplished.

And the Q-victory banners are missing from the staircases.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Something tells me that Ary won't be doing any aerial photography this week.  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

He must have thought that those few new low-e guns were gonna use a lot less air!


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## Cannonball (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Some more Facebook antics.
> 
> This morning, Q Burke posted the following:
> What a BEAUTIFUL morning and it's only expected to get better. Snow making continues on Dashney Mile with temps just right to build that base. Photo taken this morning heading down Upper Willoughby....the corduroy is waiting. Let's get to it!
> ...



I'm guessing these are your FB comments. Right?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I'm guessing these are your FB comments. Right?


They aren't.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

Imagine waking up in your $250 per night hotel room on New Year's Eve week only to see this.  Unless they improve their snowmaking quickly, the most expensive rooms will be the ones that look away from the mountain.  

This photo looks eerily like a NELSAP photo.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> First, your picture of St. Johnsbury is incredible.  Second, that camera lens costs more than the GDP of Burkina Faso.





thetrailboss said:


> If it is the Canon one, they are not that badly priced.  I have a 55-200 mm IS lens and it is nice but not that expensive.



The full lens name is *EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM*


The "L" in the name makes it $$$$. The f/2.8 adds another $ and the "IS" another $.

I've started selling pictures so I hope the lens can start paying for itself. If anyone sees a picture on my Flickr account that they want professionally printed and framed let me know and I'll shoot you a AlpineZone special price. 8)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77159597@N07/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2014)

Very nice work, you've got some beautiful pictures there. Thanks for sharing!


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## WoodCore (Dec 30, 2014)

As the immortal Highway Star would say.......... ((Team Beaverkill)+(AQ)^3)/EB-5 = FAIL^Q


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2014)

Ah, I was wondering if it was one of the white Canon lenses.  That is sweet.  Mine is just the consumer edition.  

And I may take you up on your offer....your pictures are amazing.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

More Facebook fun.  There were several pass holders that expressed their displeasure and concern over the lack of snow making.  Somebody, who obviously reads this forum, posted about the lack of compressor capacity.  The tone for all of the comments was respectful.  The bottom line is that the pass holders asked for some sort of statement from management about the problem and how they intended to address it.

This morning management made their statement.  They deleted all of the comments.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2014)

I read that comment.  It was plenty respectful.  Pretty childish to just delete it.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Dec 31, 2014)

Is this the longest thread ever?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Is this the longest thread ever?



Nope. Guess the Ski Area thread is the longest.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Nope. Guess the Ski Area thread is the longest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That's what I was going to say. 3,083 replies to 2,658.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> That's what I was going to say. 3,083 replies to 2,658.



This one may catch it...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> This one may catch it...



We're working on it, give us time! ;-)


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> They deleted all of the comments.



I don't think so, they are still all coming up for me just as they were last night.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I don't think so, they are still all coming up for me just as they were last night.


Hmm.. that's weird.  I spoke to another person who agreed that they were deleted.  The post I am talking about is the one that starts with; "THANK YOU to all the skiers and riders that bundled up and enjoyed our mountain today!"


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

A better view of Upper Warren's Way:


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2014)

Yeah, that one had a comment deleted from a season pass holder questioning their snowmaking 

There's another comment from yesterday with 10 responses that have not been deleted.  That might be the one they deleted their own sophomoric Meme insertion.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, that one had a comment deleted from a season pass holder questioning their snowmaking
> 
> There's another comment from yesterday with 10 responses that have not been deleted.  That might be the one they deleted their own sophomoric Meme insertion.


Exactly.  The first comment you referred to had about seven replies from other passholders.  Those are all gone now too.

The other thread still has the comments there, except for the meme that the Events Coordinator posted.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2014)

I missed the other six they deleted.  The one I did see was very respectful.  If it was me who made that comment as a season pass holder and they deleted it, I'd sincerely question how much they value my business.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2014)

Ooops, thought you were talking about the next one down. I can't remember what the responses were to the upper one last night. But once again... this mornings post is geared towards the nightlife options, and not the skiing and riding that come first this morning!


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

This was predictable.  Someone just posted: 
I think that it is very dishonest of you to take down any posts that you consider negative and only leave the positive posts. All business's should be able to accept a little constructive criticism. Toughen Up Burke! Listen to what your customers have to say. I thought the "Q" in Burke stood for Quality!

Burke is never going to win at a game of whack-a-mole.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> A better view of Upper Warren's Way:



That's pretty ugly, especially for a training slope. The BMA must barely be able to get adequate training in. That slope would be a perfect candidate to be lined with automated fan guns ala Crotched...


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That's pretty ugly, especially for a training slope. The BMA must barely be able to get adequate training in. That slope would be a perfect candidate to be lined with automated fan guns ala Crotched...


If you look at the tree line on the right hand side you can see a bunch of snow guns.  If only they could get air and water to those guns...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2014)

Yeah, saw them, was just trying to take the air out of the equation, I thought that there was a more than adequate water supply?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, saw them, was just trying to take the air out of the equation, I thought that there was a more than adequate water supply?


You are correct.  Water supply is not the issue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> A better view of Upper Warren's Way:
> 
> View attachment 14875



FWIW they normally don't open Upper Warren's until after the Christmas Holidays.  I would imagine that the lack of air will surely slow down progress on that stretch of trail.  That trail requires a lot of cover.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW they normally don't open Upper Warren's until after the Christmas Holidays.  I would imagine that the lack of air will surely slow down progress on that stretch of trail.  That trail requires a lot of cover.



Correct, BMA usually only gets snow blown up to the fire road until early Jan, some years later. However, I find the snowmaking on the rest of the mountain massively dissapointing like the rest of you. I can't believe they haven't touch dippers, it's why I ski!


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

How long do you think it will take to get the Dippers open from top to bottom once they start blowing there?  Based on the fact that they are only going to blow on Lower Willoughby, I am guessing that they can only blow on half of the Dippers at a time.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> How long do you think it will take to get the Dippers open from top to bottom once they start blowing there?  Based on the fact that they are only going to blow on Lower Willoughby, I am guessing that they can only blow on half of the Dippers at a time.



Dippers is giant, I'd be surprised if they could get that open in less than a week from now. But then again, I'm not an expert on this and only going off of jogging my memory from previous years. I imagine they could blow on only half at a time, if that. It may actually be set-up more in thirds. Perhaps Trailboss knows better.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

From what I observed, there appears to be a shift in pass holder feeling.  The pass holders were willing to move past the snowmaking woes of last season, but aren't willing to ignore the fact that the problem has repeated.  

This has a lot of similarities to Wildcat last year.  Wildcat seemed to handle the situation well (at least eventually).  They were up front about the snowmaking problems, they held a pass holder town meeting, and they came out with a plan to remedy the situation.  While snowmaking could still be improved at Wildcat, they have double the trails that Burke has right now. 

If Q Burke is smart, they will take a page from Wildcat.  It would help ease the tension that is quickly brewing.  They key is that they can't just assume that they will be able to talk their way out of the problem.  They need to come up with a plan - but they also need to make people believe that they will implement the plan.  People haven't forgotten the promises that were made last year - which is why they are becoming so upset right now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> From what I observed, there appears to be a shift in pass holder feeling.  The pass holders were willing to move past the snowmaking woes of last season, but aren't willing to ignore the fact that the problem has repeated.
> 
> This has a lot of similarities to Wildcat last year.  Wildcat seemed to handle the situation well (at least eventually).  They were up front about the snowmaking problems, they held a pass holder town meeting, and they came out with a plan to remedy the situation.  While snowmaking could still be improved at Wildcat, they have double the trails that Burke has right now.
> 
> If Q Burke is smart, they will take a page from Wildcat.  It would help ease the tension that is quickly brewing.  They key is that they can't just assume that they will be able to talk their way out of the problem.  They need to come up with a plan - but they also need to make people believe that they will implement the plan.  People haven't forgotten the promises that were made last year - which is why they are becoming so upset right now.



I think we have seen that they just don't care.  If they were acting logically they would have quietly made changes to remedy their mistakes.  Instead they have dug their heels in and just continued doing what they are doing.  Little General needs to declare victory and get out.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

Can anyone explain this?  Burke claims to have 267 acres of skiable terrain.  They have 8 out of 36 trails open.  At the same time, they claim that they have 135 skiable acres open.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Can anyone explain this?  Burke claims to have 267 acres of skiable terrain.  They have 8 out of 36 trails open.  At the same time, they claim that they have 135 skiable acres open.



Lol. That's funny.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

I just noticed something else that is odd.  Burke lists 50 trails in their marketing materials.  Their online trail map lists 52 trails by name.  

And yet in the snow reports for the past several days they have been reporting their total trail count as 36 trails.  For example, today they reported 8 out of 36 trails being open.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 31, 2014)

As noted earlier in this thread (5 or 20 pages ago :razz, they dropped Mid-Way from the trail list.

*I currently count 37 Trails:*

Big DipperBinney LaneBoarderlineBunker HillCarriage RoadCarter CountryDashney MileDeer RunDipper DoodleDoug's DropEast BowlFox's FollyThe GapHigh Meadows PassThe LedgesLew's LeapLift LineLittle DipperLower Bear DenLower Doug's DropLower Fox's FollyLower PowerlineLower Warrens WayLower WilloughbyMcHarg's Cut-offMountain MarshOpen SlopePowderhornRe-runThe ShootUpper Bear DenUpper DipperUpper Fox's FollyUpper PowerlineUpper Warren's WayUpper WilloughbyWilderness


*And 15 Glades:*


BirchesCavemanDixilandEnchanted ForestFlaming Eddie'sHibernatorJesterThe JungleLee's LoopMarshlandSasquatchScooby DooThrobulatorWayne's WorldY-Knot


37+15 = 52
They may be counting one of the "trails" as "glade" or some other classification. For example, technically Jester is a MTB trail, not a glade. Maybe Dashney Mile is not a trail but rather a "terrain park".

Either way, I'm sure they are using the lower number of total trails to make the situation look less worst :dunce:.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> Either way, I'm sure they are using the lower number of total trails to make the situation look less worst :dunce:.


Ah... that explains it.  They are using only the non-glade trails.  Gotta love it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ah... that explains it.  They are using only the non-glade trails.  Gotta love it.



The acreage is still off I think though.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The acreage is still off I think though.


It has to be.  I saw the acreage reported at onthesnow.com.  I assume that they get their information from the ski area, no?


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## Tin (Dec 31, 2014)

Some homer posted it is not about compressors and snowmaking issues but about temperature and "Burke Mountain Resort" liked it.  :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)




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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

Tin said:


> Some homer posted it is not about compressors and snowmaking issues but about temperature and "Burke Mountain Resort" liked it.  :lol:


I have a suspicion that some of the defenders are either employees or friends of employees.  Just a hunch, nothing more.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 31, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> Is this the longest thread ever?



Not sure legalize MJ thread I hope does not neat this because MJ become fully legal soon.


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## rueler (Jan 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I have a suspicion that some of the defenders are either employees or friends of employees.  Just a hunch, nothing more.



I agree with you. The last name of one of the defenders is the same last name as the "on mountain" operations manager, Jason Lefebreve. 

The people on the FB page with the concerns on the lack of snowmaking power don't have ANY problems with the people who are busting their ass making the most of what they have to work with. It's disappointing, sad and makes anyone that's been around a mountain in their day question what's going on when they are only making snow on one trail at a time. When Q came in and all of us saw that they didn't have all the diesel compressors, we knew that there would be a loss of power. We are now fully realizing how that loss of power translates to what they can do or should I say "not do" on the hill. Yesterday, I spoke directly with someone who works on the mountain. He confirmed that it's because a lack of power. He also said that the snowmaking infrastructure (pipes, pump houses, compressors, etc.) need an overhaul and he did more than hint, when he said that once the hotel was up, the next big project was to overhaul the snowmaking system. I trust him and what he said…I just question when? Will he have totally lost the faith of the skiing public before he eventually corrects the problem?

A pass holder I ski with wrote emails to "the fearless leader" last year after a miserable Christmas week about the same concerns that are being voiced now on Facebook. The feedback registered for sure, and he said that he'd fix the problems. Unfortunately, he didn't feel that fixing them this year was a priority. His priority is pretty clear and seen all around the mountain. The hotel…and to reduce/cut costs. Hopefully, he does fix the snowmaking problems he said that he would. I just wish that he or someone from management would address it officially like the GM at Wildcat did last year. It would go a long way with many Burkies if he would just be upfront about it.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

rueler said:


> I agree with you. The last name of one of the defenders is the same last name as the "on mountain" operations manager, Jason Lefebreve.
> 
> The people on the FB page with the concerns on the lack of snowmaking power don't have ANY problems with the people who are busting their ass making the most of what they have to work with. It's disappointing, sad and makes anyone that's been around a mountain in their day question what's going on when they are only making snow on one trail at a time. When Q came in and all of us saw that they didn't have all the diesel compressors, we knew that there would be a loss of power. We are now fully realizing how that loss of power translates to what they can do or should I say "not do" on the hill. Yesterday, I spoke directly with someone who works on the mountain. He confirmed that it's because a lack of power. He also said that the snowmaking infrastructure (pipes, pump houses, compressors, etc.) need an overhaul and he did more than hint, when he said that once the hotel was up, the next big project was to overhaul the snowmaking system. I trust him and what he said…I just question when? Will he have totally lost the faith of the skiing public before he eventually corrects the problem?
> 
> A pass holder I ski with wrote emails to "the fearless leader" last year after a miserable Christmas week about the same concerns that are being voiced now on Facebook. The feedback registered for sure, and he said that he'd fix the problems. Unfortunately, he didn't feel that fixing them this year was a priority. His priority is pretty clear and seen all around the mountain. The hotel…and to reduce/cut costs. Hopefully, he does fix the snowmaking problems he said that he would. I just wish that he or someone from management would address it officially like the GM at Wildcat did last year. It would go a long way with many Burkies if he would just be upfront about it.



Spot on. Though I don't know what costs could be cut. The product is now subpar.
Spot


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## rueler (Jan 1, 2015)

You're right Trailboss, not many other costs can be cut. He's already done it and is sticking to his guns of not spending the money to rent compressors and buy diesel which would be necessary to cover the hill with an adequate machine made base. I heard that he wasn't running the fan guns the other day because the the electricity rates are at peak. Don't know how true that one was, but I wouldn't doubt it. He ran one of the fan guns at the top of Sherburne Express all day yesterday. 

Even if he rents the compressors next year or the year after and gets the snowmaking operation back to what it was, it's still an antiquated system at best. The way that the lines run up the mountain on the west side is fine…but, they are all hodge podged together just above the Poma…they run across the mountain along Toll Road to get to the Dippers. I am not aware of any pump houses on that side of the mountain. They truly need to overhaul the whole system if they want to insure a consistent skiing product. Hell, we would all be happy if they just got back to what they were.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

The good news is that they have finally recognized the problem on their Facebook page.  The bad news is that their response was dismissive and failed to address the well-known underlying problem.  Here is what they posted:

Happy New Year Friends!! Shall we set the record straight? Feels like great timing since we're on Day 1 of 2015. What, where, and how we should be snow making this winter season?
November 14th we began making snow. 9 million gallons of water were pumped to get 5 groomers open for a fantastic opening weekend Dec. 13th. Mother Nature treated us well when nearly 14 inches fell mid-December and we were happily boasting 70% skiable acreage. Temps rose however and snow making became impossible until this past Sunday, 12/28 when the guns were turned back on and have been running non-stop.
Our choice of upgrades this year was to replace our land based guns with high efficiency towers to balance our water to air ratio to produce the best product possible for our skiers and riders. Every season brings new challenges and sometimes the weather works in our favor during busy season – unfortunately that wasn't the case this go around.
Dashney Mile will be opening Friday with limited features (our crew is working hard to get features at 100%); Binney Lane will be pushed and groomed today with our expectation of opening Friday as well; snow making has begun on Lower Willoughby and will continue through the weekend. After we have our lower mountain up to par we will move on to the dippers to satisfy our Burke enthusiasts.
Thank you to everyone that supports us and continues to work with us as we embrace the challenges of mother nature. Your passion and concern for the mountain is second to none and just goes to show how important our efforts are to skiers and riders.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Spot on. Though I don't know what costs could be cut. The product is now subpar.
> Spot on.


Agreed.  That was a great post that summarizes the challenges.


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## AmmergauerTele (Jan 1, 2015)

There are a lot of options out there.  Gotta make quality snow these days to compete.  In NH - Loon, WV, Ragged, Cannon, BW all on the 93 corridor are all blasting away with the guns and closer to the Boston metro area.  Not sure the draw of a hotel on the mountain is gonna bring you all the way up north to ski Burke for an unreliable product.  The amount of time and money spent to drive that far for subpar skiing would not happen for me and my family.  Investing in a pass there probably would not happen.  In VT there are so many other choices - yeah, quite a bit more expensive (Stowe, Sugarbush…).  When you have areas tossing million each year into snowmaking infrastructure (even Wildcat is getting into the mix) with all the high efficiency tower guns, and Burke decides to build a hotel, you have to question their priorities.  For me - when I go skiing it is all about the conditions, hotel experience is secondary.  If the skiing is subpar I will never go back and spend the time and money on a weak product.  Burke needs to be careful here - are they a "resort" or a ski area.  I'm thinking the latter.  You could say that for about all the places in New England.  Stowe is a ski area first, and a resort second.  People go to Stowe and pay the $100+ for a ticket because they put out a superior skiing product.  If the skiing sucked there - the place would be a ghost town.  I would imagine Stowe had a pretty good week even with the rain due to their snowmaking capacity.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

What's really concerning about their most recent Facebook post is that they acknowledged the problem but offered absolutely no indication that they intend to remedy the problem.

In a follow up comment, Burke said that they can only average 30 snowmaking guns in use at one time.  How does this compare to other similar sized areas?  For that matter, how many guns line the Dippers alone?


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## rueler (Jan 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's really concerning about their most recent Facebook post is that they acknowledged the problem but offered absolutely no indication that they intend to remedy the problem.
> 
> In a follow up comment, Burke said that they can only average 30 snowmaking guns in use at one time.  How does this compare to other similar sized areas?  For that matter, how many guns line the Dippers alone?



There are probably more than 30 guns on the Dippers. That's why they usually blow snow on it in parts. They typically drag ground guns onto Carriage Road and open that as the initial route to the middle part of Dipper. That top section of Dipper takes a lot to cover. A patroller that I know said that was the plan for the coming week as well.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

rueler said:


> There are probably more than 30 guns on the Dippers. That's why they usually blow snow on it in parts. They typically drag ground guns onto Carriage Road and open that as the initial route to the middle part of Dipper. That top section of Dipper takes a lot to cover. A patroller that I know said that was the plan for the coming week as well.


I was assuming that 30 guns won't even get you half of Dipper.  But I really hadn't paid much attention.

I am also assuming that if they can only _average_ 30 guns, they can't get 30 guns going at one time on the top of the mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

Here are some posts made by Q Burke in response to questions:

In regards to capacity we currently have a 2200 gpm water supply and pumping capacity. Mid Burke pumps 2200 gpm while the upper mountain pumps around 800 gpm. A 4000 cfm (100 psi electrical compressor) helps supply air to the ENTIRE mountain which limits our artificial snow production due to balancing water / air. We can average running 30 snow guns at one time due to piping of different sizes throughout the mountain along with pumping zones which limit our ability to rapidly cover the mountain with artificial snow.

Allison, we currently have a 2200 gpm (gallons per minute) water supply and pumping capacity. Our upgrade of 67 energy efficient guns (out of 252 fixed air guns on the mountain) gave us more bang for our buck. These energy efficient gun can produce 10 to 28 cubic feet of snow per minute with our 4000 cfm electric compressor which means we are producing more snow in a given period based on temps and humidity. Keep in mind...just because the temps are below freezing does not mean we can just flip a switch. Optimal snow making temps for our system is actually 18F where our guns can pump as much as 50 gpm of snow.

According to our "masters of snow" our HDK guns can produce 15 gpm of snow at 26F, 30 gpm at 22F, and 50 gpm at 18F. Again, keeping in mind that we are at "full" capacity with 30 guns running at a time.

If I had more time I would compare this to other similarly sized ski areas.


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## doublediamond (Jan 1, 2015)

rueler said:


> He also said that the snowmaking infrastructure (pipes, pump houses, compressors, etc.) need an overhaul and he did more than hint, when he said that once the hotel was up, the next big project was to overhaul the snowmaking system.



Wouldn't it be wiser to invest in snowmaking first?  Because now next year they'll have a hotel and still have no snowmaking and they'll lose their shirt because they can't fill the rooms.

Just like Greek Peak.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> Wouldn't it be wiser to invest in snowmaking first?  Because now next year they'll have a hotel and still have no snowmaking and they'll lose their shirt because they can't fill the rooms.
> 
> Just like Greek Peak.


What makes it even more perplexing is that the hotel was delayed by a year, so they certainly had time to focus on snowmaking.  It could have been a chicken and an egg thing.  Perhaps they didn't want to invest the money until they knew that the hotel was being built.  But now that snowmaking has been proven to be a train wreck, and people are angry, they still haven't said that they plan to remedy the problem over the summer.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 1, 2015)

Evidently they didn't get the same low-e guns that the rest of the VT resorts got in the program this summer and fall, because those guns use supposedly only 5-8 cubic feet per minute. That would have allowed a heck of a lot more guns to run simultaneously  on that 4000 CFM compressor.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

I've done some poking around, and the bottom line is that a 4,000 cfm compressor for a 267 acre ski area is laughable.  Ski Butternut has 110 acres and can blow 14,400 cfm.  I can go on with many more examples...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

Q Burke said that Mid Burke pumps 2200 gpm while the upper mountain pumps around 800 gpm.

What does this mean, exactly?  Does it mean that when they want to make snow on the upper mountain they are limited to 800 gpm, or does it mean something different?  And if it is the former, what do they mean by "upper mountain"?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's really concerning about their most recent Facebook post is that they acknowledged the problem but offered absolutely no indication that they intend to remedy the problem.
> 
> In a follow up comment, Burke said that they can only average 30 snowmaking guns in use at one time.  How does this compare to other similar sized areas?  For that matter, how many guns line the Dippers alone?



So I've been out and about today with friends and family, but I just checked that thread on FB and it made me laugh my ass off.  In particular, the post where they start with, "Truth".  There is so much BS there it is not even funny.  First, they FAIL to fess up to the fact that they have cut back on staffing and $$$ to BLOW snow.  Second, they don't admit that they DOWNGRADED the system that they had by tearing down the compressor shed and not replacing it or the rental compressors in it.  Instead, they say that the system is "30 years old."  Bull.  True that SOME parts of the system are that old, but Northern Star, Burke 2000, and Ginn made MAJOR upgrades and and replacement of the system.  

The truth is that they now can only run 30 guns at a time.  With rental power and adequate staffing they could run A LOT more than that. 

The comment about building the Hotel as a priority is also ridiculous.  WHO is going to come to Burke next year if this complete trainwreck continues?  Let's say that this is a bad snow year.  Folks are going to see that Burke has no terrain open.  Are they going to want to stay a weekend in 2015-2016 at a place that can't deliver what they USED TO in years past and when you ask them about it they insult you?  No, of course not!

For a supposed war veteran and Army Officer he sure does not know how to accept responsibility let alone lead and instead makes up complete bullshit excuses and pisses everyone off.  He must have dug a lot of latrines while in the service.


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## Tin (Jan 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So I've been out and about today with friends and family, but I just checked that thread on FB and it made me laugh my ass off.  In particular, the post where they start with, "Truth".  There is so much BS there it is not even funny.  First, they FAIL to fess up to the fact that they have cut back on staffing and $$$ to BLOW snow.  Second, they don't admit that they DOWNGRADED the system that they had by tearing down the compressor shed and not replacing it or the rental compressors in it.  Instead, they say that the system is "30 years old."  Bull.  True that SOME parts of the system are that old, but Northern Star, Burke 2000, and Ginn made MAJOR upgrades and and replacement of the system.
> 
> The truth is that they now can only run 30 guns at a time.  With rental power and adequate staffing they could run A LOT more than that.



Wasnt it just two days ago it was bragging about new compressors that were each as powerful as 3 rentals?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

Tin said:


> Wasnt it just two days ago it was bragging about new compressors that were each as powerful as 3 rentals?



They have ONE compressor ("Marge") that has that capacity.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

Burke has agreed to a pass holder meeting after it was suggested by multiple people.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke has agreed to a pass holder meeting after it was suggested by multiple people.



Oh that will be fun...




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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2015)

You should request Q senior and Bill Stengers presence.  I would think a round table with Ary is a waste of time.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh that will be fun...


The people that seem to be the most upset are the people that own condos on the mountain.  I can't really blame them.  They are a captive audience and even if they want to get out one or two more years of this will have a significant downward impact on condo values. 

I pity the fool that is thinking about a Bear Path condo right now.  As someone on Facebook has already said, "If you think that anyone will pay $650,000 for a condo to ski one trail, you are delusional!"


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You should request Q senior and Bill Stengers presence.  I would think a round table with Ary is a waste of time.


Q Sr. is almost a ghost.  I'd be shocked if he attended.  On the other hand, Stenger is not afraid of these situations.  It would not surprise me one bit if he attended, if for no other reason than people are much more deferential to him than to Q Jr.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You should request Q senior and Bill Stengers presence.  I would think a round table with Ary is a waste of time.



They did that two years ago. Obviously that did a lot of good :roll: 

I say what's the point if they're NOT going to implement the constructive criticism? 


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## the original trailboss (Jan 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke has agreed to a pass holder meeting after it was suggested by multiple people.



I haven't heard anything about a meeting - keep us informed as I would like to attend !


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I haven't heard anything about a meeting - keep us informed as I would like to attend !


Here is what they have said on Facebook about a pass holder meeting:

Thank you all for your support and understanding. It's in the works and we will get a date ASAP!

They claim to have 10 trails open today.  The big news is that the new trails that have opened are... Binney Lane and Dashney Mile!  

This means that since the refreeze there has yet to be any snow refreshed on an open trail on the main mountain (other than perhaps right in front of MBX).  How many other resorts can say that?


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm glad passholders are having a mini-uprising of sorts on Facebook. At least they're finally responding, and it sounds like they are being somewhat honest and willing to have the meeting. I imagine they wanted to feel content that the hotel was going to happen before making the sizable snowmaking investment. Now that it's happening, coupled with the heat people are putting on them, let's hope they can find a way to do it this upcoming summer. Afterall, they're not paying for the hotel, so they should hopefully have the funds available to do it ASAP, I would think (hope).


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

One difficult spot for them is that they may be forced to readjust their season pass prices.  Right now they are $809 for an adult.  When you compare that to other mountains, and what the other mountains have to offer, there is just no way that the price can be justified.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2015)

Where o' where is mass skier?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Where o' where is mass skier?


He's busy organizing the Q Burke Spirit Squad.


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## Cannonball (Jan 2, 2015)

Burke is pretty sweet today.  Normally i wouldn't consider that a "big announcement", but by the standards of this thread....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Burke is pretty sweet today.  Normally i wouldn't consider that a "big announcement", but by the standards of this thread....


They got a couple of inches of snow overnight.  It looks like that helped a lot.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They got a couple of inches of snow overnight.  It looks like that helped a lot.



Like I said a few pages, the physical properties of Burke allow the mountain to recover very quickly with relatively little natural snow. 4-6" at Burke can feel like what it takes 10-12" at Jay.

Unfortunately, with the snow making situation, trails like the Dippers (Upper Dipper specifically) will not be open any time soon.


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## zeke (Jan 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You should request Q senior and Bill Stengers presence.  I would think a round table with Ary is a waste of time.



i could be wrong, but the whole idea that stenger is involved in anything day to day with burke is a pretty big misconception. i'm sure stenger has some tie to the hotel (because it's an eb-5 project) but as for day-to-day operations of burke mountain (snowmaking, etc) i don't believe he has any say into or knowledge of how things are run. 

seems to me the last real tie to operations with the jay team ended when steve wright stepped away before the season started.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2015)

zeke said:


> i could be wrong, but the whole idea that stenger is involved in anything day to day with burke is a pretty big misconception. i'm sure stenger has some tie to the hotel (because it's an eb-5 project) but as for day-to-day operations of burke mountain (snowmaking, etc) i don't believe he has any say into or knowledge of how things are run.
> 
> seems to me the last real tie to operations with the jay team ended when steve wright stepped away before the season started.



Stenger's formal title for Burke is "advisor to the Board." Considering how poorly both Q's listen to people I think you can guess how little Stenger contributes to things.


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## the original trailboss (Jan 2, 2015)

If my memory serves me correctly I was told three years ago that sixty, not thirty, guns was max ??


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> If my memory serves me correctly I was told three years ago that sixty, not thirty, guns was max ??



Exactly.  That was with the full compliment of compressors instead of what they have now.  Progress?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> If my memory serves me correctly I was told three years ago that sixty, not thirty, guns was max ??


Everybody is happy...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2015)

What's up with this?
http://www.skiburke.com/burke-blog/snowmaking-update/

Burke has been insisting that they can't increase compressor capacity because of electricity limitations.  But this work was done AFTER the existing compressor was installed.


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## Boardguy (Jan 2, 2015)

I am certainly not up here all the time but I can say that I have never seen anthing close to 60 guns going at the same time. Ever. Not doubting  that the management at that point was telling people that they could run 60 guns though. Just never seen it.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's up with this?
> http://www.skiburke.com/burke-blog/snowmaking-update/
> 
> Burke has been insisting that they can't increase compressor capacity because of electricity limitations.  But this work was done AFTER the existing compressor was installed.



(You weren't supposed to read that   )

And as to sixty guns, that does make sense.  Back during 2005-2008 when I regularly skied there I recall them being able to blow snow on several upper mountain trails and one lower mountain route simultaneously.  Was it like Sunday River caliber production?  No.  But for an area that used to be able to only blow on, say, just Lower Warren's only at once it was a big improvement.  Did I count every gun that was running?  No.  I just know that anecdotally they were able to make snow in many areas at once to help get things going and to recover quickly if needed.

Let's also set our expectations here--Jay is NOT a powerhouse in snowmaking.  In fact their snowmaking generally sucks in my experience.  They pretty much blow snow on one route at a time and move on.  They only really blow to build base and not to recover.  Of course they say that they get epic snow (they do get a lot) but Jay is not known for snowmaking.  I dare say that for a while Burke had better guns and ability to cover terrain because they needed to.  

If these guys were serious they'd take a long look at the mountain layout and decide what to do in the long term.  Burke has always been a "blow what you need and then stop" resort.  They blow twice on the main routes to get them going and move on.  They're not like Sunday River, Killington, or Okemo in that the machine made snow IS the main product.  So the Burke system was always different...essentially four main lines that run from MidBurke to the Summit and three and a half lines on the lower mountain.  With spurs, long hoses, and some creativity, they can cover a lot of their terrain. 

Northern Star did have plans to reconfigure the trails such that there would be more continuous top to mid-mountain runs with complete snowmaking.  But that did not happen.  

So if they ARE serious about the ski product they either need to get back their initial capacity, and then add to it, and fix and maintain what they have, or they have to plan on more extensive work with trail rerouting and new lines.  Honestly I think if they ran two more complete lines from Mid Burke to the Summit (one along Dipper Doodle, Powderhorn, Wilderness; the other up Doug's) they'd be in really good shape.

None of this matters though if they don't have enough power to run more than 30 guns let alone enough people who want to work for Q to run the system.  It's pretty widely known that a lot of people have left and that they cannot get help.  

And as to those 60 some-odd "high efficiency" guns, my guess is that Q got those for reduced price or free from Efficiency Vermont this summer.  Nothing like your tax dollars/electric fees put to good use :roll:


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## Boardguy (Jan 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> (You weren't supposed to read that   )
> 
> And as to sixty guns, that does make sense.  Back during 2005-2008 when I regularly skied there I recall them being able to blow snow on several upper mountain trails and one lower mountain route simultaneously.  Was it like Sunday River caliber production?  No.  But for an area that used to be able to only blow on, say, just Lower Warren's only at once it was a big improvement.  Did I count every gun that was running?  No.  I just know that anecdotally they were able to make snow in many areas at once to help get things going and to recover quickly if needed.



 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I don't recall that period as particularly a high point in Burke snowmaking. As a matter of fact I can't remember any high point. It has always been lackluster during our time there. When Ginn brought in the new guns I was hopeful but having guns and using them are two different things. Anyway like every year I am hoping for lots of natural snow. The groomers were hard at it the past few nights moving the snow had been made around on the lower mountain. Maybe they will pick up several inches tonight and the rain at the end of the storm tomorrow will not take all the new snow away.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 12, 2015)

Back under 3000 posts in this thread unless Nick can restore the last week of discussions.


----------



## faQ (Jan 12, 2015)

what the heck happened?  did we just go back in time?


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 12, 2015)

faQ said:


> what the heck happened?  did we just go back in time?



Yep there is a fuckup somewhere.


----------



## skifree (Jan 12, 2015)

qhacked


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 12, 2015)

This may be Ary's work.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 12, 2015)

All of my memes blew up the forum!


----------



## boofenstien (Jan 12, 2015)

North Qreans?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2015)

Wow.  Interesting.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 12, 2015)

Paging VTKilarney, you have some serious work to do.


----------



## faQ (Jan 12, 2015)

Qonspiracy theories?  I have one which involves Q2, BMA contract and a possible shill.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2015)

Well?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2015)

To pick back up where we left off VtK........mind posting that Caladonian article in it's entirety.   Thanks


----------



## River19 (Jan 12, 2015)

Seeing as how I had to register again and it didn't say my user name was taken I'm guessing they rebooted the servers using a copy from a week ago give or take.

So I guess we will forget my first 26 or so posts and start back at 1 lol


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2015)

Your fault River.  Your broke the forums


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Your fault River.  Your broke the forums



Dude does it ever stop? Now your going after the new guy?! What a bully


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Dude does it ever stop? Now your going after the new guy?! What a bully



:lol:


----------



## River19 (Jan 12, 2015)

Wouldn't be the first forum I broke.......but I thought I grew up.  Oh well.

Sorry....I'll get us back to 3000 !!!!!

I'd have to say Q probably couldn't pull off a forum black hole , but if he did, it would be his most successful media campaign so far.......so he's got that going for him.......which is nice.

Also, getting some snow on the mountain....maybe the grass will disappear from all those open trails.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2015)

They got more than expected today.  I'd say about four inches.


----------



## River19 (Jan 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They got more than expected today.  I'd say about four inches.



Almost enough to cover the grass?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 12, 2015)

still 248 to 3000


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They got more than expected today.  I'd say about four inches.



I had at least 6" here five miles away.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2015)

I left before it ended.  That sounds about right for when it was all said and done.   


.


----------



## the original trailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

Sure would be nice to see rueler's "run-in with Ary" post back up... Just sayin


----------



## River19 (Jan 13, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Sure would be nice to see rueler's "run-in with Ary" post back up... Just sayin



I think that post is a key item to document as well, so I agree 100%.


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 13, 2015)

*We have lost more posts*

Anyone know what is going on?


----------



## River19 (Jan 13, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Anyone know what is going on?



Experiencing missing time.

At least I didn't have to register for a 3rd time.......lol


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 13, 2015)

Ministry of truth must be erasing them.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 13, 2015)

Burke was wrapped in a snowmaking cloud this morning.







Nice day out there today...


----------



## faQ (Jan 13, 2015)

Did anybody read Cal Rec today?  I heard there was a letter to editor about Burke but haven't seen it. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

faQ said:


> Did anybody read Cal Rec today?  I heard there was a letter to editor about Burke but haven't seen it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes there was one the other day.  I will try to put it up if I still have it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

Here's the Letter from Monday:



> Skiing conditions
> at Burke Mt. To the Editor:
> I have been skiing at Burke
> since we moved to Vermont in
> ...


----------



## faQ (Jan 13, 2015)

Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 13, 2015)

*Sure would be nice to see rueler's "run-in with Ary" post back up... Just sayin*

Rueler- where are you?   your post got exorcised and we would love to have it back--


----------



## faQ (Jan 13, 2015)

I can't believe Burke had access to Jay's marketing guru http://vimeo.com/116707164 and instead we get iphone videos one step outside the baselodge of flurries and of a car getting stuck on tollroad.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

faQ said:


> I can't believe Burke had access to Jay's marketing guru http://vimeo.com/116707164 and instead we get iphone videos one step outside the baselodge of flurries and of a car getting stuck on tollroad.



And don't forget the cheesy techno music blasting in his car as he is driving up Toll Road.  How silly.  

Q wants to do it himself.  That's the beginning and end of it.  He will not listen to Stenger or anyone from Jay.  It makes me sick.  

And I just got an Email from Sunday River talking about "Piles of Snow" that they've made to encourage folks to come this weekend and instill confidence in their conditions and offerings.  I don't think that Burke could even remotely say the same thing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

Looks like they are still looking to hire nearly everyone.  I have never seen a more ridiculous job description for a dishwasher:



> Dishwasher
> We have an immediate opening  for a highly motivated, energetic, and enthusiastic individual who will be responsible for maintaining cleanliness and sanitation standards for china, glassware, tableware, cooking utensils, etc. using machine and manual cleaning methods.  This position also helps ensure that the kitchen areas are maintained as clean, safe, and sanitary facilities.   The successful candidate must demonstrate the ability to take and follow directions efficiently while being able to lift and carry heavy objects.  Evening and weekend work required.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like they are still looking to hire nearly everyone.  I have never seen a more ridiculous job description for a dishwasher:



That is really funny. I give them points for colorful word smithing. What is the labor market like in the NEK?


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 13, 2015)

Here is the video from Burke:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153069047248023


----------



## River19 (Jan 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like they are still looking to hire nearly everyone.  I have never seen a more ridiculous job description for a dishwasher:



"Motivated.....Energetic.....enthusiastic......"

"LET'S WASH THIS $#$% !!!!  THIS IS WHERE DIRTY COMES TO DIE......I AM GOING TO WASH THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THESE THINGS.......PASS ME THAT Q-CHINA !!!!!!"

We'll see how the weekend goes......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

yeggous said:


> That is really funny. I give them points for colorful word smithing. What is the labor market like in the NEK?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



Not great. And people don't want to work for him. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

River19 said:


> "Motivated.....Energetic.....enthusiastic......"
> 
> "LET'S WASH THIS $#$% !!!!  THIS IS WHERE DIRTY COMES TO DIE......I AM GOING TO WASH THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THESE THINGS.......PASS ME THAT Q-CHINA !!!!!!"
> 
> We'll see how the weekend goes......



Good one!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## faQ (Jan 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the video from Burke:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the one. Why not gear up, get on the hill and try and do something creative that might actually create some stoke. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 13, 2015)

faQ said:


> That's the one. Why not gear up, get on the hill and try and do something creative that might actually create some stoke.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



This is really not a new approach at Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the video from Burke:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I'm not sure which is worse here – – the poor quality of the film, or the fact that there is absolutely nobody skiing at Burke. If I were someone in marketing I would want to show people having a good time and enjoying the new snow rather than a Q ghost town.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## faQ (Jan 13, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> This is really not a new approach at Burke.



Not sure what you mean?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 13, 2015)

I seem to recall Q Burke saying that the hotel is ahead of schedule.  

This document has a construction timeline that assumed a start date at the end of July (see page 156): http://www.globaldetailinginc.com/d...HC Bid Book & Documents Complete - 130523.pdf

Ground was broken on the hotel in the beginning of June.  So if we give them the benefit of the doubt, and just use a one-month difference, the following should be completed by now:
- On the west wing, wood wall panels should be up on level 5 and the roof trusses and roof framing should be completed.  The roof sheathing should be underway.  
- On the west wing the wood wall panels should be up to level 5.  Roof trusses should be starting to be installed.

Are they still ahead of schedule?  Are they on schedule?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 13, 2015)

I dont believe I've ever met a "highly motivated" dishwasher, let alone an "enthusiastic" one.  I do, however, think I'm starting to have the makings of a delightful sitcom.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont believe I've ever met a "highly motivated" dishwasher, let alone an "enthusiastic" one.  I do, however, think I'm starting to have the makings of a delightful sitcom.



+ 1 on both points.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 13, 2015)

Somebody give this guy an application!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Somebody give this guy an application!
> 
> View attachment 14926



He applied and was rejected


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 13, 2015)

faQ said:


> Not sure what you mean?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not a reflection of the people that work in the marketing department, but rather the fact that it has been historically understaffed (even before the Quiros purchase) to the point that having time for someone to go out and shoot video footage and edit it on the scale of what Jay is putting out is impossible. I'm quite sure Jay has staff that has a primary responsibility to produce short movies like that. There have been spurts of quality "daily update" media that has come out of Burke here and there over the years but it has been inconsistent. There have been some pretty good (some have been excellent) still images taken that are posted on the Facebook page this year :beer:.

If the same budget was given to the ski operations marketing department that has been used to create the cool drone movies for hotel construction update/promotional videos, then maybe we could see something more about the rest of the mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 13, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not a reflection of the people that work in the marketing department, but rather the fact that it has been historically understaffed (even before the Quiros purchase) to the point that having time for someone to go out and shoot video footage and edit it on the scale of what Jay is putting out is impossible. I'm quite sure Jay has staff that has a primary responsibility to produce short movies like that. There have been spurts of quality "daily update" media that has come out of Burke here and there over the years but it has been inconsistent. There have been some pretty good still images taken that are posted on the Facebook page this year :beer:.
> 
> If the same budget was given to the ski operations marketing department that has been used to create the cool drone movies for hotel construction update/promotional videos, then maybe we could see something more about the rest of the mountain.



Agreed.  The prior marketing folks were nice and meant well, but never had the resources to do the same kind of job as Jay.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 13, 2015)

Example video from Burke's YouTube page from a few years ago shows that there was some good production quality going on:





Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/BurkeMountainResort/videos

I've made my own short movies over the years and I know it takes some work to put together something worth watching. The staff has to have someone with know-how and time to do it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Example video from Burke's YouTube page from a few years ago shows that there was some good production quality going on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So that video shows what I was saying a few days ago--in that video they were making snow on Carter Country, Open Slope, and Big Dipper. So that's upper and lower mountain. I guess they can no longer do that?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Q Burke and Jay Peak could have a partnership for marketing purposes.  That appeared to be happening but seemed to quickly fall apart.  Seems like a real wasted opportunity to me.


----------



## faQ (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not a reflection of the people that work in the marketing department, but rather the fact that it has been historically understaffed (even before the Quiros purchase) to the point that having time for someone to go out and shoot video footage and edit it on the scale of what Jay is putting out is impossible. I'm quite sure Jay has staff that has a primary responsibility to produce short movies like that. There have been spurts of quality "daily update" media that has come out of Burke here and there over the years but it has been inconsistent. There have been some pretty good (some have been excellent) still images taken that are posted on the Facebook page this year :beer:.
> 
> If the same budget was given to the ski operations marketing department that has been used to create the cool drone movies for hotel construction update/promotional videos, then maybe we could see something more about the rest of the mountain.



Has anyone seen the new Q-posters hanging up in the baselodge/ guest services?  There are actually really cool and capture the Burke skiing experience.  Kudos to whoever was involved in making them.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

I noticed that the National Guard life-size poster was removed from the ticket area.  I think the one upstairs was gone as well, but I can't remember for sure.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *Q Burke and Jay Peak could have a partnership for marketing purposes.  That appeared to be happening but seemed to quickly fall apart.  Seems like a real wasted opportunity* to me.



I don't see how even the most ardent Jay Peak / QBurke defenders could give anything but a failing grade thus far from an integration standpoint.  

At least from the outside, QBurke seems to be running entirely as an autonomous acquisition, and in that regard, marketing is probably the area that's most glaringly obvious to outsiders.


----------



## faQ (Jan 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't see how even the most ardent Jay Peak / QBurke defenders could give anything but a failing grade thus far from an integration standpoint.
> 
> At least from the outside, QBurke seems to be running entirely as an autonomous acquisition, and in that regard, marketing is probably the area that's most glaringly obvious to outsiders.



I find it annoying the way Stenger/ Stengers-success/ Jay model was used as the "face" of the new Burke and then poof...vanished.


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> I find it annoying the way Stenger/ Stengers-success/ Jay model was used as the "face" of the new Burke and then poof...vanished.



The last time we really saw Stenger involved was in early 2014 when he tried to smooth over the mess Jr. made of the KT relationship and the "what not to do" social media campaign Jr found himself driving....

It's almost as if Stenger is seeing this mess (along with some of his other messes) and going "I stuck my neck out for that kid once and I'm not doing it again as I don't want my name associated with what is currently going on in Burke".  Stenger wants to associate himself with successes, he doesn't need to be associated with any more controversies.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Masskier,

What about my question about whether or not the hotel is no longer ahead of schedule - and is perhaps behind schedule now?

Even if you use the dates in the original timeline that contemplated a late July start, the wooden wall panels on the 5th level of the west wing should be nearly finished.  And on the west wing, the wood floor trusses should be installed up to the 4th level.  

Looking at the webcam, it looks like they aren't at that point.  But my eyes certainly could be deceiving me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> I find it annoying the way Stenger/ Stengers-success/ Jay model was used as the "face" of the new Burke and then poof...vanished.



+ 1.  If you read at the beginning of this thread, you see that I was very optimistic and hopeful with Stenger's involvement and that slowly my optimism has faded.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't see how even the most ardent Jay Peak / QBurke defenders could give anything but a failing grade thus far from an integration standpoint.
> 
> At least from the outside, QBurke seems to be running entirely as an autonomous acquisition, and in that regard, marketing is probably the area that's most glaringly obvious to outsiders.



And this is SO sad because it would be SO EASY for Burke to jump on the Jay bandwagon and ride their coattails.  But when egos are in control stupid decisions are made.  That's clearly what it is--Q Sr. and Jr. figured it was very easy to run a ski area and that they could just "copy" what Jay is doing.  Until Q Sr. resigns himself to just handing over the reigns to a competent resort manager and letting that manager run with it, with the help of Jay, we're going to continue to see this half-assed operation and all of the stakeholders (BMA, property owners, businesses, the community) will continue to suffer.


----------



## faQ (Jan 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> The last time we really saw Stenger involved was in early 2014 when he tried to smooth over the mess Jr. made of the KT relationship and the "what not to do" social media campaign Jr found himself driving....
> 
> It's almost as if Stenger is seeing this mess (along with some of his other messes) and going "I stuck my neck out for that kid once and I'm not doing it again as I don't want my name associated with what is currently going on in Burke".  Stenger wants to associate himself with successes, he doesn't need to be associated with any more controversies.



I wonder that myself and hope it wasn't all political BS to keep everybody optimistic while the EB5 money-grab continued.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> The last time we really saw Stenger involved was in early 2014 when he tried to smooth over the mess Jr. made of the KT relationship and the "what not to do" social media campaign Jr found himself driving....
> 
> It's almost as if Stenger is seeing this mess (along with some of his other messes) and going "I stuck my neck out for that kid once and I'm not doing it again as I don't want my name associated with what is currently going on in Burke".  Stenger wants to associate himself with successes, he doesn't need to be associated with any more controversies.



Bingo. 

It's also nice to have some new Burke fans weighing in here with their POV's.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

And since we are talking marketing, it's always a good idea not to use cheesy stock images in your material or a photo from a competing ski area.....


----------



## faQ (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not a reflection of the people that work in the marketing department, but rather the fact that it has been historically understaffed (even before the Quiros purchase) to the point that having time for someone to go out and shoot video footage and edit it on the scale of what Jay is putting out is impossible. I'm quite sure Jay has staff that has a primary responsibility to produce short movies like that. There have been spurts of quality "daily update" media that has come out of Burke here and there over the years but it has been inconsistent. There have been some pretty good (some have been excellent) still images taken that are posted on the Facebook page this year :beer:.
> 
> If the same budget was given to the ski operations marketing department that has been used to create the cool drone movies for hotel construction update/promotional videos, then maybe we could see something more about the rest of the mountain.



Understood.  I guess my point is that there should be somebody to say...um, lets not post that and try and think of something else.  Like this one:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152931180658023&set=vb.303348433022&type=2&theater


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Bingo.
> 
> It's also nice to have some new Burke fans weighing in here with their POV's.



It's interesting, I found this forum last year when I was concerned about the mountain and the business direction and the KT relationship getting FUBAR.  I decided to join recently to contribute to the forum due to the desire for the mountain to enjoy long term success without ripping the community apart, and/or without changing the feel and vibe of the community too much from what it is today.

As a side note, a good friend of ours is celebrating their birthday this weekend and a group of 10 of us (all locals + us) are going out to dinner.  In the past we would have probably hit the Tamarack.......they chose elsewhere and didn't even consider the 'Rack due to the bad taste in everyone's mouth.  8 local woodchucks......their choice, not mine......  says something doesn't it?

But hey....Bud Light for $2.50 on game day !!!!  Vermont the best beer state east of the Mississippi but we got Bud Friggin' Light on special......(maybe they do want a 90% college kid crowd)


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> Understood.  I guess my point is that there should be somebody to say...um, lets not post that and try and think of something else.  Like this one:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152931180658023&set=vb.303348433022&type=2&theater



Exactly. So many of those unedited videos are shot by someone literally just outside the marketing office doors. I guess some people are satisfied if they just see that it is snowing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> It's interesting, I found this forum last year when I was concerned about the mountain and the business direction and the KT relationship getting FUBAR.  I decided to join recently to contribute to the forum due to the desire for the mountain to enjoy long term success without ripping the community apart, and/or without changing the feel and vibe of the community too much from what it is today.
> 
> As a side note, a good friend of ours is celebrating their birthday this weekend and a group of 10 of us (all locals + us) are going out to dinner.  In the past we would have probably hit the Tamarack.......they chose elsewhere and didn't even consider the 'Rack due to the bad taste in everyone's mouth.  8 local woodchucks......their choice, not mine......  says something doesn't it?
> 
> But hey....Bud Light for $2.50 on game day !!!!  Vermont the best beer state east of the Mississippi but we got Bud Friggin' Light on special......(maybe they do want a 90% college kid crowd)



Out of curiosity where are you going?  I've heard good things about the Publick House.


----------



## faQ (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Exactly. So many of those unedited videos are shot by someone literally just outside the marketing office doors. I guess some people are satisfied if they just see that it is snowing.




And you could be right.  From my point of view, after coming in from clearing a bunch of snow, find a brief moment to sit down with a beer and look for a little ski-porn only to see someone clearing a bunch of snow.  It occurs to me I may not be the target demo...grin.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

Back inside 200 posts to make it to 3000


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Out of curiosity where are you going?  I've heard good things about the Publick House.



There.  We're going there.

Used to like the River Garden for a place with my wife....of course that went downhill then closed.  Willy's tried hard but always seem to come up a tad short......some good moments though....but alas that is gone as well.  Junipers......I have had good experiences and ones that have left me scratching my head.....  The Pube, I mean the old Pub needed to close up and have something open in its place and these guys have been a couple times and love it.

I know Libbey's is supplying the bangers for the bangers and mash so if they are like any of his other sausages they will be spot on.

The 'rack used to be a "go to" but the menu is inconsistent and the prices are very high for what they are giving you and the level of execution.  decent for a beer and a burger at the bar with Roger, but.....my money seems to be Q-scared to be spent at the Q-rack.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> And you could be right.  From my point of view, after coming in from clearing a bunch of snow, find a brief moment to sit down with a beer and look for a little ski-porn only to see someone clearing a bunch of snow.  It occurs to me I may not be the target demo...grin.



Their mistake is that they are using FB as a means of communicating amongst themselves and their buddies instead of proper marketing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> There.  We're going there.
> 
> Used to like the River Garden for a place with my wife....of course that went downhill then closed.  Willy's tried hard but always seem to come up a tad short......some good moments though....but alas that is gone as well.  Junipers......I have had good experiences and ones that have left me scratching my head.....  The Pube, I mean the old Pub needed to close up and have something open in its place and these guys have been a couple times and love it.
> 
> ...



So sad that River Garden closed.  It is a bummer.  Willy's catered my wife's bridal shower and my sister's wedding.  VERY good.  The Pub was a major disappointment in the end.  Last summer they served me water that was so rancid (sulfur) I almost vomited.  And FWIW Roger no longer works at the Q-Rack.  Like many he just wanted to move on.  Q also insisted on playing techno instead of classic rock so that was a part of it too.    The Tamarack was always just OK IMHO.  Nothing great, nothing bad.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Last summer they served me water that was so rancid (sulfur) I almost vomited.



That is the local tap water. Still a problem at the Publick House as of a couple weeks ago when I went. I've heard they are looking into a filtration system.


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So sad that River Garden closed.  It is a bummer.  Willy's catered my wife's bridal shower and my sister's wedding.  VERY good.  The Pub was a major disappointment in the end.  Last summer they served me water that was so rancid (sulfur) I almost vomited.  And FWIW Roger no longer works at the Q-Rack.  Like many he just wanted to move on.  Q also insisted on playing techno instead of classic rock so that was a part of it too.    The Tamarack was always just OK IMHO.  Nothing great, nothing bad.



I heard Willy's catering was outstanding......I think much of the issue with the restaurant was outside the kitchen.  We had some awesome memories at the River Garden.  Too bad about Roger.....any idea where he ended up?  He was a St J guy, so maybe Balliwick's opposite Steve or something.....

Q-Techno?  Another reason to avoid the Rack.....wtf.  I agree....a burger, wings and beer place for me.....but I can do all those anywhere including in front of the fire at our place....without the techno !!!!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> I agree....a burger, wings and beer place for me.....



The Publick House burger I had was excellent. I could barely fit it in my mouth .


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is the local tap water. Still a problem at the Publick House as of a couple weeks ago when I went. I've heard they are looking into a filtration system.



Yeah, that's what I figured since my folks have the same issue.  But if you're a restaurant you served BOTTLED water or get a filter....you don't serve customers rancid tap water.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Publick House burger I had was excellent. I could barely fit it in my mouth .



Good to know.  I will have to try it on my next trip up there this winter.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> What about my question about whether or not the hotel is no longer ahead of schedule - and is perhaps behind schedule now?
> 
> ...



Why are you calling Masskier out to answer this question? He isn't building the hotel and you've already established that you don't believe anything he says anyway :lol:.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 14, 2015)

Couple of good points there! :-D


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Why are you calling Masskier out to answer this question? He isn't building the hotel and you've already established that you don't believe anything he says anyway :lol:.



Hard to argue with this logic right here.


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 14, 2015)

ditto, ditto-  leave poor Masskier alone.  the guy is trying to build and sell condos in the face of a mountain owner who is worse than clueless.  A mountain owner who is so immature that he cannot play nice in the sandbox with very laid back folks and who cannot be truthful.

I am sure Masskier doesn't want to say it publicly, but these things do not make his life any easier.  Pissing off Q-jr leads to a non-linear, irrational response.  why invite that?



MEtoVTSkier said:


> Couple of good points there! :-D


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Why are you calling Masskier out to answer this question? He isn't building the hotel and you've already established that you don't believe anything he says anyway :lol:.



He's commented on the hotel schedule before and has claimed to have a line of communication.   He was the one most likely to know the answer.  I'll infer the answer from his silence since he's never been shy to comment about this when it satisfies his agenda.  


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> ditto, ditto-  leave poor Masskier alone.  the guy is trying to build and sell condos in the face of a mountain owner who is worse than clueless.  A mountain owner who is so immature that he cannot play nice in the sandbox with very laid back folks and who cannot be truthful.
> 
> I am sure Masskier doesn't want to say it publicly, but these things do not make his life any easier.  Pissing off Q-jr leads to a non-linear, irrational response.  why invite that?



I know for a fact that he's been saying privately much of what we have been saying publicly.  Who can blame him?


.


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> He's commented on the hotel schedule before and has claimed to have a line of communication.   He was the one most likely to know the answer.  I'll infer the answer from his silence since he's never been shy to comment about this when it satisfies his agenda.
> 
> 
> .



Oh we all know the gist of the response you are going to get, something along the lines of:

"Sorry guys, was just out skiing the ton of fresh Pow dumped on Burke in between my 16 condo showings from highly qualified buyers up for the QBig-Air contest and QPizza night.  I also had to dig out the laptop from under all these real estate studies I was pulling together for VTKilarney and Trailboss.  Remember to come on up to the Tamarack for Sunday game day for $1 Natural Light drafts, the techno dance-off and the first 100 people through the door get a Q-Jr bobble head doll"

OK fine, I made up the bobble head doll........

Joking aside......if Putin could get some of the hotels in Sochi semi-done......I can see a similar "soft open" on time for Hotel Burke.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

I would actually show up for a Q-Jr bobble head doll.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

We are just a couple days from one of the biggest ski weekends of the year.  As we all know, Q Burke has very few hotel rooms nearby.  And yet the Willoburke Inn and Lodge has several rooms still available for the entire weekend.  Still plenty of rooms at the Wildflower Inn.  Still plenty of rooms at the Lynnburke.  Still plenty of rooms at the Inn at Mountain View Farm.  

Kind of makes you wonder how they will fill all those rooms in the new hotel.


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> We are just a couple days from one of the biggest ski weekends of the year.  As we all know, Q Burke has very few hotel rooms nearby.  And yet the Willoburke Inn and Lodge has several rooms still available for the entire weekend.  Still plenty of rooms at the Wildflower Inn.  Still plenty of rooms at the Lynnburke.  Still plenty of rooms at the Inn at Mountain View Farm.
> 
> Kind of makes you wonder how they will fill all those rooms in the new hotel.



Honestly, I don't know.......there isn't enough other stuff/Woobly Barn type night spots etc.so the skiing will have to be friggin' outrageous to come close to bringing in enough people to fill the bulk of that hotel, plus all the condos for rent.  And if they do come close to drawing significant numbers like that, that means the Willoburke, Wild Flower, Mountain View, Lynnburke etc. will be left praying the natural snow brings them at least a handful of decent snowmobile weekends which we haven't had in the past few years.  Along with the small number of XC travelers and then of course the fat bikers......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> We are just a couple days from one of the biggest ski weekends of the year.  As we all know, Q Burke has very few hotel rooms nearby.  And yet the Willoburke Inn and Lodge has several rooms still available for the entire weekend.  Still plenty of rooms at the Wildflower Inn.  Still plenty of rooms at the Lynnburke.  Still plenty of rooms at the Inn at Mountain View Farm.
> 
> Kind of makes you wonder how they will fill all those rooms in the new hotel.



Just goes to show that when Marge doesn't blow.....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

At the risk of quickly opening an old Masskier wound, the year end real estate reports are in.  

The final tally for Caledonia County:
- New condo listings were up 54.2%
- Non-St. Johnsbury condo sales were down 41.2% 
-  Median condo sales price is down 7.7%
- Average condo sales price is down 16.3%


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Just goes to show that when Marge doesn't blow.....


It certainly suggests that people probably pay attention to trail counts when they make reservations a couple of weeks ahead of time.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> We are just a couple days from one of the biggest ski weekends of the year.  As we all know, Q Burke has very few hotel rooms nearby.  And yet the Willoburke Inn and Lodge has several rooms still available for the entire weekend.  Still plenty of rooms at the Wildflower Inn.  Still plenty of rooms at the Lynnburke.  Still plenty of rooms at the Inn at Mountain View Farm.



Posting feature-length diatribes on here must be time consuming enough, do you really spend the rest of your day calling around to area lodging in order to find out if they have rooms available?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2015)

Here's a question; why did Burke go with a property owned hotel vs. a condo/quarter share  property?  You know, something like Jackson Gore at Okemo.   Is it because its EB-5 financed?   Some of the accommodations include kitchens and multiple bedrooms no?  Could Burke shift gears and start selling units after the place is built?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Posting feature-length diatribes on here must be time consuming enough, do you really spend the rest of your day calling around to area lodging in order to find out if they have rooms available?


I was tipped off by Q Burke's Facebook page.  Their marketing department drew attention to the fact that the local inn still has rooms.  There's a thing called the Internet that took me five minutes to check the three other places.  If you think that it takes a sizable portion of my day to find out availability at three hotels, then may God have mercy on your time management skills.


I'd rather be making substantive comments, even if it takes a small amount of research, than wasting my time posting about other people's posts and adding absolutely nothing substantive.  But we clearly differ in that regard.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'd rather be making substantive comments, even if it takes a small amount of research, than wasting my time posting about other people's posts and adding absolutely nothing substantive.



Or posting about about other people's non-posts?



VTKilarney said:


> I'll infer the answer from his silence since he's never been shy to comment about this when it satisfies his agenda.



This is substantive?

I think we're all clear on masskier's agenda.  Haven't nailed down yours yet.  Other than "I just care so much about the mountain".


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I think we're all clear on masskier's agenda.  Haven't nailed down yours yet.  Other than "I just care so much about the mountain".


Must everyone in every conversation have an agenda?

By the way, I'm looking for the moderator badge under your name.  Surely it must have been forgotten.  In any event, congratulations on assuming your new role here.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Must everyone in every conversation have an agenda?
> 
> By the way, I'm looking for the moderator badge under your name.  Surely it must have been forgotten.



No, not everyone in every conversation must have an agenda.  But when someone goes to enormous lengths to focus on a specific topic it appears like an agenda.  Case in point: you.

If you feel like be challenged equals being moderated than you might be a touch defensive.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> No, not everyone in every conversation must have an agenda.  But when someone goes to enormous lengths to focus on a specific topic it appears like an agenda.  Case in point: you.
> 
> If you feel like be challenged equals being moderated than you might be a touch defensive.


I'd love it if more people challenged me.  My point was that if you want to challenge me, bring on some facts!  I've yet to see you do that.  Thus, you are acting more like a conversation moderator than a bona fide participant.

The most I've seen from opposing viewpoints are things like, "But everyone's happy!", or "My "artistic" interpretation beats actual data from actual realtors any day of the week!"


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 14, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a question; *why did Burke go with a property owned hotel vs. a condo/quarter share  property?*  You know, something like Jackson Gore at Okemo.*   Is it because its EB-5 financed? *



No idea what the primary consideration was, but obviously getting EB-5 makes the "hotel hurdle" much easier, because you're not as instantly pressured to get ROI out of the project since it's been literally handed to you.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> No idea what the primary consideration was, but obviously getting EB-5 makes the "hotel hurdle" much easier, because you're not as instantly pressured to get ROI out of the project since it's been literally handed to you.


Or perhaps there isn't enough of a market for a new condo hotel and the existing condos?


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'd love it if more people challenged me. My point was that if you want to challenge me, bring on some facts! I've yet to see you do that.






VTKilarney said:


> What about my question about whether or not the hotel is no longer ahead of schedule - and is perhaps behind schedule now?
> 
> Even if you use the dates in the original timeline that contemplated a late July start, the wooden wall panels on the 5th level of the west wing should be nearly finished.  And on the west wing, the wood floor trusses should be installed up to the 4th level.
> 
> Looking at the webcam, it looks like they aren't at that point.  But my eyes certainly could be deceiving me.



Fact: It's been F'ing freezing out.  When I skiied Burke recently I couldn't believe the framers were out there working on the hotel. I felt so bad for those dudes.
Fact: If you left your keyboard and webcam view for a minute to go work outside you might realize just how brutal that really is.
Fact: Working outdoors in subzero temperatures can reduce productivity.

Fact: It is therefore minimally relevant (and appears agenda driven) that you are nitpicking which walls are up based on a webcam view in order to set the stage for some indictment of the whole operation.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Fact: It's been F'ing freezing out.  When I skiied Burke recently I couldn't believe the framers were out there working on the hotel. I felt so bad for those dudes.
> Fact: If you left your keyboard and webcam view for a minute to go work outside you might realize just how brutal that really is.
> Fact: Working outdoors in subzero temperatures can reduce productivity.
> 
> Fact: It is therefore minimally relevant (and appears agenda driven) that you are nitpicking which walls are up based on a webcam view in order to set the stage for some indictment of the whole operation.


You'd have a point if the change in overall progress didn't happen until the cold snap.  But that's not at all the case.  Try again.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You'd have a point if the change in overall progress didn't happen until the cold snap.  But that's not at all the case.  Try again.



Oh, I thought you brought it up today.  No? When did the overall change in progress take place exactly?  Why did you wait until today to bring it up if it isn't recent? And what is the relevance?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Oh, I thought you brought it up today.  No? When did the overall change in progress take place exactly?  Why did you wait until today to bring it up if it isn't recent? And what is the relevance?


Back to your non-fact pestering?  I'll pass.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2015)

Another question......what kind of integration / central reservation system exists currently at Burke with all the various condo units they have?  How's that all going to get wrapped in with the hotel?  Does the mountain have a lodging division?  If the mountain thinks they can get by with such inexperienced management to run ski resort operations, what type of people are they going to try and hire to run lodging?   Hint:  The candidate needs greater qualifications than just having been an Assistant General Manger from a Motel 6.  This is a bit more than a "leave the light on for you" job.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 14, 2015)

I think this will be the only thread in history to hit 3,000 posts *twice* in week.  :lol:


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Back to your non-fact pestering?  I'll pass.



I'll infer the answer from your silence


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 14, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I'll infer the answer from your silence


----------



## witch hobble (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm not only missing the pages everyone is missing, but I also stopped clicking on this thread a hundred pages ago.  So I'm a little lost.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 14, 2015)

This about sums it up...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I would actually show up for a Q-Jr bobble head doll.



...with matching dartboard...


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> ...with matching dartboard...



So what we're saying is, sitting on my couch I may have come up with a more successful marketing ploy than the "look at our empty mountain" cell phone videos set to techno? lol

Everyone is happy!!!!  There's nothing to see here.......the more I think about it, the more I think we are looking at Q-Sochi-East......


----------



## burski (Jan 15, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Fact: It's been F'ing freezing out.  When I skiied Burke recently I couldn't believe the framers were out there working on the hotel. I felt so bad for those dudes.
> Fact: If you left your keyboard and webcam view for a minute to go work outside you might realize just how brutal that really is.
> Fact: Working outdoors in subzero temperatures can reduce productivity.
> 
> Fact: It is therefore minimally relevant (and appears agenda driven) that you are nitpicking which walls are up based on a webcam view in order to set the stage for some indictment of the whole operation.



I would hope a competent contractor would take into account that it might get cold one or two days in the Northeast Kindom over the course of the winter, and incorporate that loss of productivity into thier schedule.  Do you really think this factwould not have been adjusted for in the planning?? :smash:
 I have heard now from several people working on the project that the project on a whole is a few months behind schedule - this should not be a surprise to anyone - when your contractors are working in crappy weather on a weekend your probably not ahead a schedule.  What will be interesting is how they try to spin the fact that they were publically puttting out there months ago that they are well ahead of schedule when the hotel does not open on time ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

That's the reason I brought it up.  If you look at the timetable in the document I posted, there doesn't appear to be much room for delay.  There is work scheduled to be going on right up on the heels of opening day - and that's if everything goes according to schedule.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

Can someone remind me when was the targeted original opening day for the Qhotel?  Wasn't it in time for 2015-2016 ski season?

Given the fact that it is not uncommon to run into cost and time overruns in a large construction project in even the most hospitable conditions, what is the chance of significant investment/improvement in snow making over the summer of 2015 in time for next winter?  While I understand the Qhotel is QEB-5 funded......are the inevitable cost overruns also factored into the EB-5 funding or will they be reaching into other Qcoffers.....?

Is there an increasing chance that there is a Sochi-like partial hotel opening in December 2015 combined with the same snow making which has driven passholders to semi-mutiny this season?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

The originally planned opening date was December 2014.  That obviously didn't happen.  The anticipated opening date now is December 2015.  

I don't think that Burke can afford both a hotel delay and a lack of meaningful snowmaking improvements next year.  But they may not care, either.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

From Q Burke's snow report for today:
The snow condition is primarily packed powder over powder.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The originally planned opening date was December 2014.  That obviously didn't happen.  The anticipated opening date now is December 2015.
> 
> I don't think that Burke can afford both a hotel delay and a lack of meaningful snowmaking improvements next year.  But they may not care, either.



The other thing in the back of my mind with the hotel is......summer bookings.  I'm sure they will get their share of summer guests, but, the MTB crowd (the primary draw) tend to enjoy the camping, campfire social time, communal nature of campground "lodging" etc. and we have a bunch of sweaty smelly muddy gear to deal with.  While I'm sure some will enjoy the hotel.......it isn't an exact fit with the common MTB "scene".....especially for families....

I guess we will have to wait until 2016 to find out....


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 15, 2015)

Packed powder over powder...  Somehow the laws of physics cease to exist at Qburke.


----------



## burski (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> From Q Burke's snow report for today:
> The snow condition is primarily packed powder over powder.



I have never seen ski conditions described as that - probably b/c it makes no sense


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

burski said:


> I have never seen ski conditions described as that - probably b/c it makes no sense




"Jr....was that you.....were you playing on the internet again......?"


----------



## zeke (Jan 15, 2015)

River19 said:


> The other thing in the back of my mind with the hotel is......summer bookings.  I'm sure they will get their share of summer guests, but, the MTB crowd (the primary draw) tend to enjoy the camping, campfire social time, communal nature of campground "lodging" etc. and we have a bunch of sweaty smelly muddy gear to deal with.  While I'm sure some will enjoy the hotel.......it isn't an exact fit with the common MTB "scene".....especially for families....
> 
> I guess we will have to wait until 2016 to find out....



the need to accommodate MTBs was brought up in the early, early "planning" stages for the hotel. but with the rush to get EB-5 funding underway, a decision was made to not develop a new plan, based on the market–requiring a lot of time and money–and rework the materials on hand. hence, the Tram Haus doublewide


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Packed powder over powder...  Somehow the laws of physics cease to exist at Qburke.



Packed powder over frozen granular is probably more accurate.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

Oh and 142 left!


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

zeke said:


> the need to accommodate MTBs was brought up in the early, early "planning" stages for the hotel. but with the rush to get EB-5 funding underway, a decision was made to not develop a new plan, based on the market–requiring a lot of time and money–and rework the materials on hand. hence, the Tram Haus doublewide



And that falls right in line with the decision making process that has defined this ownership group.  I maintain they still have no idea who their customer is and what they want and what is important to them.  The hotel is answering a question no one has asked......


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 15, 2015)

We will know that very soon-   if they do not develop any of the ancillary facilities (pool building, tennis, building, indoor biking building, gold, WHATEVER)  they will fail.  I love the NEK, but for many months of the year it is very, very quiet and can be pretty grey.  Why would I stay in the new hotel (no doubt at a premium $) to ride the MTB trails?  There is plenty of room at the Comfort Inn.   You need to create a market as opposed to try to serve a market that is already well served.




River19 said:


> And that falls right in line with the decision making process that has defined this ownership group.  I maintain they still have no idea who their customer is and what they want and what is important to them.  The hotel is answering a question no one has asked......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> We will know that very soon-   if they do not develop any of the ancillary facilities (pool building, tennis, building, indoor biking building, gold, WHATEVER)  they will fail.  I love the NEK, but for many months of the year it is very, very quiet and can be pretty grey.  Why would I stay in the new hotel (no doubt at a premium $) to ride the MTB trails?  There is plenty of room at the Comfort Inn.   You need to create a market as opposed to try to serve a market that is already well served.



The activity will be Techno Karaoke Night at the Yurt that will no doubt replace MidBurke with your DJ Mini Q and friends! 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

"Q-techno Yurt, now serving $2.00 Busch Lights.......watch our FB page for Hot Dog night and bobble head specials....this Sunday is techno remix of all your Flock of Seagulls favorites.....come check it out"


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> From Q Burke's snow report for today:
> *The snow condition is primarily packed powder over powder.*



There's Powder in them thar' hills, but ya gotta' DIG for it!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> * if they do not  develop any of the ancillary facilities (pool building, tennis,  building, indoor biking building, gold, WHATEVER)  they will fail.*  I  love the NEK, but for many months of the year it is very, very quiet and  can be pretty grey.



We have 3000+ posts in this thread without the blunt, brutal, cold hard truth, so here it  is.  

Burke is doomed to fail no matter what, Q or sans-Q. 

As far as I  know, Burke has never been sustainably profitable, and it never will be due  to its' location, demographics, and surrounding competition.  The miracle of "free  money" via EB-5 buys it some time, but Burke's only real hope for survival  is RPT, which is essentially what has gotten it this far.


*Rich Person's Toy


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Burke is doomed to fail no matter what, Q or sans-Q.


But BMA is always a wild card.  I have been hearing, however, rumors that BMA is looking at other location options.  Cannon would no doubt be appealing.  I have no faith in the rumors that I've heard, however.

Oddly enough, I have a feeling that Q-Jr would love to get rid of BMA.  Let's hope my instinct is incorrect.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> We have 3000+ posts in this thread without the blunt, brutal, cold hard truth, so here it  is.
> 
> Burke is doomed to fail no matter what, Q or sans-Q.
> 
> ...




No, the Emporer is wearing qlothes!

I think that Burke could be sustainable if Kingdom Trails were to get into the alpine skiing business. Having a unified organization offering mountain biking, cross-country skiing, alpine skiing, and snowshoeing would be amazing. That be a true all-season resort desination. Imagine a season pass that covered all activities?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> But BMA is always a wild card.  I have been hearing, however, rumors that BMA is looking at other location options.  Cannon would no doubt be appealing.  I have no faith in the rumors that I've heard, however.
> 
> Oddly enough, I have a feeling that Q-Jr would love to get rid of BMA.  Let's hope my instinct is incorrect.



I fear that Q's crazed logic is push out BMA and take their land to build whatever.  How stupid, how stupid, how stupid.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> But BMA is always a wild card.  I have been hearing, however, rumors that BMA is looking at other location options.  Cannon would no doubt be appealing.  I have no faith in the rumors that I've heard, however.
> 
> Oddly enough, I have a feeling that Q-Jr would love to get rid of BMA.  Let's hope my instinct is incorrect.



These rumors are false and are a pile of hot, steaming sh!t. Stop posting this ludicrous stuff. You are looking to incite something that is not there, AT ALL.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> We have 3000+ posts in this thread without the blunt, brutal, cold hard truth, so here it  is.
> 
> Burke is doomed to fail no matter what, Q or sans-Q.
> 
> ...



Obviously time will tell, and heck based on history it is hard to make a case for the trend changing especially given the debacle of a start this management team is off to.

That being said, I think the one thing Burke has going for it this time vs. the others is a true 3 season resort (no one will be there in April-Mid May....mud season) potential with the mountain biking scene.  Sure nearly every damn ski mountain in New England is trying to get in on the lift served downhill biking scene, but Burke has the added attraction of Kingdom Trails (Top 5 trails system in the country.....COUNTRY!!).  That is a huge positive......

Now here is the biggest head scratcher to all that.....that Hotel just drastically increased their operating expenses just to be "open" for a week/weekend......if they were just developing the resort (ie.snow making infrastructure, downhill MTB trails, better lifts, better food, etc.) chances are the 3 season revenue might have a chance to throw some actual cash to the bottom line.  Add in that huge hotel and the operating expense of it.....I think the math gets fuzzy, and it isn't a hard proforma to build on this either.....

Sure, build a aquatic center, bike park, tennis center etc. and they might bring in some incremental folks....but they also just jacked up the operating expenses a bunch again, staffing, utilities, maintenance, insurance (those aren't low insurance businesses).....will the incremental visits cover that expense increase plus throw coin to the bottom line?......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> These rumors are false and are a pile of hot, steaming sh!t. Stop posting this ludicrous stuff. You are looking to incite something that is not there, AT ALL.



If you can say, has Q met his obligations to BMA for snowmaking and trail availability?  If you can't say, I understand.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> These rumors are false and are a pile of hot, steaming sh!t. Stop posting this ludicrous stuff. You are looking to incite something that is not there, AT ALL.



Didn't I say that I put no faith in those rumors?   I wouldn't have said that if I was looking to incite something.  

The issue is that people have the perception that BMA is exploring options.  That's not good at all.  


.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Didn't I say that I put no faith in those rumors?   The issue is that people have the perception.  That's not good at all.
> 
> .



I'm correcting them. Feel free to let them know they're full of sh!t and stop spreading false rumors.


----------



## whiskey jack (Jan 15, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I'm correcting them. Feel free to let them know they're full of sh!t and stop spreading false rumors.



Agreed. They will be pulling off the upper training hill tomorrow. Trail will be groomed out for the weekend. Did they meet the deadline? no, but it was close.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

How I sometimes picture VTKilarney as he makes his way around the lodge...


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> How I sometimes picture VTKilarney as he makes his way around the lodge...


Honestly, I go out of my way to NOT get involved in that talk outside of this forum.  When I'm not participating here, I'm just way too busy to be distracted by what is going on at Burke.  Working 14 hour days for the past couple of weeks will do that to you.  Okay... they would probably be 13.5 hour days if I didn't pop up here during the day.  I usually check in as I move from one project to the next.

I'm not kidding when I say that it has permeated well behind the skiing crowd.  It's not spoken about just about everywhere I go.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> How I sometimes picture VTKilarney as he makes his way around the lodge...



Is he the Blond or the Brunette?  Because I think the brunette has one fo my bass fishing lures in her ear and I need it back.....

Glad the BMA rumor is BS.....with the announcement of the US Ski team using Cannon/Mittersill etc. it almost seems plausible.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

River19 said:


> Is he the Blond or the Brunette?  Because I think the brunette has one fo my bass fishing lures in her ear and I need it back.....
> 
> Glad the BMA rumor is BS.....with the announcement of the US Ski team using Cannon/Mittersill etc. it almost seems plausible.....



+ 1.  I hope that Q understands the value of BMA to the mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

FWIW Burke just posted on FB that they are selling 14-15 season passes for $699 this weekend.  :blink:


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW Burke just posted on FB that they are selling 14-15 season passes for $699 this weekend.  :blink:



I was waiting for someone to post that......lol

Here's a question I don't know the answer to......the "On the Snow" report shows the snow depth on Burke as "Upper 24 Packed Powder" and "Middle 0" " and  "Lower as 6" Machine Groomed".......can someone explain the "Middle 0"  to me.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

River19 said:


> I was waiting for someone to post that......lol
> 
> Here's a question I don't know the answer to......the "On the Snow" report shows the snow depth on Burke as "Upper 24 Packed Powder" and "Middle 0" " and  "Lower as 6" Machine Groomed".......can someone explain the "Middle 0"  to me.....



If I had to guess someone messed up on that snow report.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

Technically the season is about 1/4 complete at this point. I bet they sell a lot of those passes...


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

What was the early purchase price?   I can't recall.  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What was the early purchase price?   I can't recall.
> 
> 
> .



I want to say $499 or so.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I want to say $499 or so.


I think that was up to May 1st last year and included access to Burke for the last couple weeks of last season.

Then it popped in into the mid-$500 range through the end of the summer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think that was up to May 1st last year and included access to Burke for the last couple weeks of last season.
> 
> Then it popped in into the mid-$500 range through the end of the summer.



Sounds right from the Emails that I received.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

114 left. Can we get inside 100 with one day left in the week?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2015)

anything is possible - 113


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 114 left. Can we get inside 100 with one day left in the week?



Oh ye of little faith 

I propose a cage match between two certain posters to get interest back up   Just kidding.  

Or we could get rueler to repost his chat with Ary.  IIRC Ary had a lot to say...sans filter!  

Lots of interest in Burke that is for sure.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2015)

Hey can we get a good discussion going on the real estate market?  Specifically Condo sales in Caledonia county with some looks with and without ST J?

Lol.......I kid....I kid......:beer:


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

They post on Facebook that East Bowl is groomed. I haven't skied it yet this year so maybe it needed it. I prefer it ungroomed. I suppose the masses that will be at the mountain for the holiday weekend will like it flat.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> They post on Facebook that East Bowl is groomed. I haven't skied it yet this year so maybe it needed it. I prefer it ungroomed. I suppose the masses that will be at the mountain for the holiday weekend will like it flat.



I actually like it groomed--it is fun to ski it fast.  

One of those pictures seems odd--like there is a new knoll or a trail cut.  It looks like it is the first pitch and that clearing on the right is where one of the mountain bike trails used to cut off.  Or is this just a different trail altogether?







OK, now that I look at it this appears to be an optical illusion.  This is the first pitch where the trail goes slightly to the right in this picture.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> They post on Facebook that East Bowl is groomed. I haven't skied it yet this year so maybe it needed it. I prefer it ungroomed. I suppose the masses that will be at the mountain for the holiday weekend will like it flat.



I skied it today.  It was ambitious to get it open and the grooming is partial due to thin cover.  There are a couple of blocked off spots due to cover issues.  I'm not sure how well it will hold up over the weekend.  

Overall things are improved.  Natural cover is still thin, but we keep getting more packed powder like than loose granular.  There was definitely less boiler plate today compared to a few days ago.   I felt that I could always hold an edge even though it was firm.  Other than needing some more natural snow, things are exactly what you would expect in New England in mid-January - packed powder on a firm base.  Given where things were not that long ago, it's nice to see conditions looking better.


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I actually like it groomed--it is fun to ski it fast.


I agree.  I love the pitches and rolls on the trail when skiing fast.  

I realized, though, that Burke needs two things to be taken seriously:
1) Improved snowmaking; and
2) A lift in the east bowl area.  There is some great terrain the that area, but those types of run-outs are not what you would expect when paying top dollar to stay in a trailside hotel.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Technically the season is about 1/4 complete at this point. I bet they sell a lot of those passes...


The problem is that they have now completely discouraged purchasing a season pass during the summer after the first price increase.  These sales seem to be a dime a dozen now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think that was up to May 1st last year and included access to Burke for the last couple weeks of last season.
> 
> Then it popped in into the mid-$500 range through the end of the summer.


The Burke only pass did not include skiing for the end of the 2013/2014 season.  It came out much later than the Judge pass - I think it was in April after Burke had closed.  I got ten days on my 2014/2015 Judge pass last year.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> 2) A lift in the east bowl area.  There is some great terrain the that area, but those types of run-outs are not what you would expect when paying top dollar to stay in a trailside hotel.



Whoa there. one thing at a time :razz:

Sketches in Google Earth from a while back...


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Agreed. They will be pulling off the upper training hill tomorrow. Trail will be groomed out for the weekend. Did they meet the deadline? no, but it was close.


How close?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Whoa there. one thing at a time :razz:
> 
> Sketches in Google Earth from a while back...


Your sketches are awesome as always.  Do they own the land to that lift?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Your sketches are awesome as always.  Do they own the land to that lift?



It's part of the lease from the State, so yes.  This also has, by and large, been on the drawing board for decades.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 15, 2015)

100 to go


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 100 to go



99


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 15, 2015)

I think this concept has already been explored.....


http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/28162-Count-to-One-Million/page166


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2015)

River19 said:


> that Hotel just drastically increased their operating expenses just to be "open" for a week/weekend......if they were just developing the resort (ie.snow making infrastructure, downhill MTB trails, better lifts, better food, etc.) chances are the 3 season revenue might have a chance to throw some actual cash to the bottom line.  Add in that huge hotel and the operating expense of it.....I think the math gets fuzzy, and it isn't a hard proforma to build on this either.....
> 
> Sure, build a aquatic center, bike park, tennis center etc. and they might bring in some incremental folks....but they also just jacked up the operating expenses a bunch again, staffing, utilities, maintenance, insurance (those aren't low insurance businesses).....will the incremental visits cover that expense increase plus throw coin to the bottom line?......



That will be someone else's problem to deal with once QBurke gets sold (yet again).


----------



## whiskey jack (Jan 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How close?



It looks like they shut down this am and I would imagine it will be pushed out tonight. It will probably take a few nights of grooming to get it up to par for them. I heard they wanted it fore the 15th of Jan.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 16, 2015)

95


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

Still the upside down snowpack with packed powder over powder today 
Lots of grooming going on too.



> Good morning riders and skiers,
> Today we’re skiing 33 trails, 11 glades, and 2 terrain parks, with 5 lifts in operation. We have just added some new groomers to our list Wilderness, Mountain Marsh, McHarg's Cut-Off, Upper Fox's Folly, and Dipper Doodle! More groomed trails include Carriage Road, Upper Dipper, Big Dipper, Open Slope, Lower Warren's Way, Lower Bear Den, Upper Willoughby, Lower Willoughby, High Meadows Pass, Binney Lane, Bunker Hill, Carter Country, and Dashney Mile. Snowmaking operations will continue on Upper Warren's Way and Upper Bear Den today. The snow condition is primarily packed powder over powder.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I actually like it groomed--it is fun to ski it fast.
> 
> One of those pictures seems odd--like there is a new knoll or a trail cut.  It looks like it is the first pitch and that clearing on the right is where one of the mountain bike trails used to cut off.  Or is this just a different trail altogether?
> 
> ...



Just a view you don't usually see since the photog went almost all the way across the top of the trail to where you go into the trees. Here is almost the same view that I took several years ago.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks FTN.  

And sorry to hear that the storm was upside down.  

Glad to hear that they got Upper Warren's covered and that it is curing.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And sorry to hear that the storm was upside down.



It wasn't (last storm was 6 inches of powder). Today's snow report has the "Packed powder over Powder" conditions again today. I'm still not sure how that works .


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It wasn't (last storm was 6 inches of powder). Today's snow report has the "Packed powder over Powder" conditions again today. I'm still not sure how that works .



I bet that someone has seen the "PP/P" notation and is misstating it as "packed powder over powder" instead of saying that primary conditions are packed powder, secondary conditions are powder.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2015)

The powder is long gone.  


.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The powder is long gone.



Duh! It is hidden under the packed powder! :lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> *I bet that someone has seen the "PP/P" notation and is misstating it as "packed powder over powder" instead of saying that primary conditions are packed powder, secondary conditions are powder.*



That's a clever deduction, I bet you're right.

I also bet that whoever is doing that has never skied a day in his/her life.




VTKilarney said:


> The powder is long gone.



It's still there, it's UNDER the packed powder.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's still there, it's UNDER the packed powder.



Beat you to it 

86...


----------



## faQ (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I bet that someone has seen the "PP/P" notation and is misstating it as "packed powder over powder" instead of saying that primary conditions are packed powder, secondary conditions are powder.



Brilliant, that's it. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

faQ said:


> Brilliant, that's it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Thanks.  I should be a snow reporter


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

So has anyone sprung for the $699 season pass special? 


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So has anyone sprung for the $699 season pass special? 



Break even point for full price adult day ticket: 699/64 = 11 days

Break even point for Vermonter price adult day ticket: 699/52 = 13.5 days

I may still be worth the investment to some people but that window is closing pretty quick.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

Winds are honkin again this afternoon. MBX is on hold and likely not going to open again this afternoon looking at the forecast.


----------



## dmw (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Winds are honkin again this afternoon. MBX is on hold and likely not going to open again this afternoon looking at the forecast.



What kind of wind speed and direction is most likely to cause holds there? I'm planning to drive up there for the day tomorrow but may reconsider if holds seem likely.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

West winds are the most likely to cause holds. It may still be windy in the morning but should decrease as the day goes on. PRetty much everywhere in northern NE is going to be in the same boat tomorrow morning. The cold combined with the wind may make skiing in the morning pretty miserable anyway.
I wonder if they will fire up the Willoughby quad if the MBX can't run in the wind on a holiday weekend? Not sure if they have run the rust out of it at all yet this year.


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## oldtimer (Jan 16, 2015)

There are a lot of cob webs around the Willoughby quad.   I am certain I would not ride that in the first 3-4 hours of operation.  They had enough trouble getting the MBX running on their opening day.  Presumably they had actually prepped the MBX before opening day.  I do not think the Willoughby has seen much love-  if it even has a current inspection.




from_the_NEK said:


> West winds are the most likely to cause holds. It may still be windy in the morning but should decrease as the day goes on. PRetty much everywhere in northern NE is going to be in the same boat tomorrow morning. The cold combined with the wind may make skiing in the morning pretty miserable anyway.
> I wonder if they will fire up the Willoughby quad if the MBX can't run in the wind on a holiday weekend? Not sure if they have run the rust out of it at all yet this year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> There are a lot of cob webs around the Willoughby quad.   I am certain I would not ride that in the first 3-4 hours of operation.  They had enough trouble getting the MBX running on their opening day.  Presumably they had actually prepped the MBX before opening day.  I do not think the Willoughby has seen much love-  if it even has a current inspection.



What a bummer. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> There are a lot of cob webs around the Willoughby quad.   I am certain I would not ride that in the first 3-4 hours of operation.  They had enough trouble getting the MBX running on their opening day.  Presumably they had actually prepped the MBX before opening day.  I do not think the Willoughby has seen much love-  if it even has a current inspection.



Not surprised. That is a pretty major piece of infrastructure to maintain for very little benefit. And given the penny pinching that is going on at the mtn, it was probably one of the first expenses to be cut.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not surprised. That is a pretty major piece of infrastructure to maintain for very little benefit. And given the penny pinching that is going on at the mtn, it was probably one of the first expenses to be cut.



I would think that it would not cost that much to maintain the Willoughby. Just inspections and testing of grips.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

It is still an expense and then if anything is broken that means more $ to fix it.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

73


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## whiskey jack (Jan 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> There are a lot of cob webs around the Willoughby quad.   I am certain I would not ride that in the first 3-4 hours of operation.  They had enough trouble getting the MBX running on their opening day.  Presumably they had actually prepped the MBX before opening day.  I do not think the Willoughby has seen much love-  if it even has a current inspection.



Inspected and blessed by the state inspector. Full compliment of line work done. No penny pinching there.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

Good to hear


----------



## dmw (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> West winds are the most likely to cause holds. It may still be windy in the morning but should decrease as the day goes on. PRetty much everywhere in northern NE is going to be in the same boat tomorrow morning. The cold combined with the wind may make skiing in the morning pretty miserable anyway.
> I wonder if they will fire up the Willoughby quad if the MBX can't run in the wind on a holiday weekend? Not sure if they have run the rust out of it at all yet this year.



Thanks


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2015)

There is also the Poma that will probably still run if you can bear the wind chill.


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## faQ (Jan 16, 2015)

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2015/01/watch-hitler-wants-to-ski-pow-at-vail


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Good to hear



+ 1


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 73



Meh, we're really at something like 3,230 or so.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Meh, we're really at something like 3,230 or so.



I know. We got ripped off.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2015)

The marketing department iPhone strikes again:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The marketing department iPhone strikes again:
> 
> View attachment 14981



Yeah....if you're gonna cover your event try to make it look like you actually have some people in attendance  (more than just your immediate friends and family). 


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2015)

I feel so badly for that band...4 people?!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I feel so badly for that band...4 people?!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Probably their wives.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2015)

Another letter to the editor in Saturday's newspaper.   


.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Another letter to the editor in Saturday's newspaper.
> 
> 
> .



Please post it if you can. 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2015)

It's very short.  It encourages others to write in with their opinion, and if the trails are poor to encourage Burke mountain to "FIX IT".


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2015)

So a nice balmy -19 at the cabin this morning......always makes me giggle when the dogs start lifting their cold paws while doing their business.....

Regarding the band playing to people they probably brought with them.....been there done that.....sucks.  10 years in a wedding band, you see it all.....

Honestly, if you're sitting at the bar at Sunday River, etc. and see that pic, all it does is confirm your choice for the weekend.  Seriously......if that is the "crowd" you had to work with......get some close-ups of the band, not their 4 wives and empty tables......lol


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## faQ (Jan 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Another letter to the editor in Saturday's newspaper.
> 
> 
> .



Can somebody share if it's worth sharing?


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## faQ (Jan 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah....if you're gonna cover your event try to make it look like you actually have some people in attendance  (more than just your immediate friends and family).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Sometimes I get the feeling I need to get out there 'cuz I'm missing the party...but not now. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> Honestly, if you're sitting at the bar at Sunday River, etc. and see that pic, all it does is confirm your choice for the weekend.  Seriously......if that is the "crowd" you had to work with......get some close-ups of the band, not their 4 wives and empty tables......lol



Helps confirm that no one is at Burke and the liftlines are ridiculously short so it might not be a bad place to go?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

53


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Helps confirm that no one is at Burke and the liftlines are ridiculously short so it might not be a bad place to go?



Half full perspective......I like it......

Here's an honest question.........what do you think the % split is for the skiing population of folks who are hardcore just there for the powder and skiing and could care less about the entertainment and dining scene after skiing vs. the folks that are looking for the entire scene, decent to above average conditions but combined with plenty of entertainment options, bars, restaurants etc.?

The reason I ask is that I have some friends who fall into the hardcore thing, and they have swapped to the whole hike and ski thing and others get out on the slopes at 9am and are done by 2-3pm and from 3-midnight they want options if they are spending coin on accommodations for a few nights.  Going back to the rented condo etc. for 3-4 nights straight isn't something appeals to them.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

Well at least we know that during a crucial holiday weekend at least four hotel rooms will be occupied. Probably comped but still occupied. 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2015)

Open house at the Bear Path condos from 2-5 today.  I wish I could make it.


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## faQ (Jan 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Helps confirm that no one is at Burke and the liftlines are ridiculously short so it might not be a bad place to go?



I guess it could be spun like that for skiing but not "come shake your booty at the tamarack". 


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 17, 2015)

If you could hack the cold, today was an incredible ski day. Bluebird, little/no wind and epic conditions. Man, the mountain was in great shape. Amazing what a couple weeks of soft snow squall weather and some snowmaking can do...


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2015)

They looked to be blowing snow when I was on the mountain between 2 and 4pm today.......now if we can just figure out who the jack wagon is that is riding around the XC trails on the snowmobile maybe some of that powder can be enjoyed elsewhere as well.

Had a nice 2 hour snow shoe this afternoon.....swung by the open house....didn't go in....seemed quiet.  Saw limited people on the slopes but the parking lot was reasonably busy, I'll bet most people were enjoying the Q-techno bar......or not....but still at the bar.....lol

I agree with SRP, great conditions on the mountain overall from a weather perspective....not too cold either, I'll take your word on the slopes....


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 17, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> If you could hack the cold, today was an incredible ski day. Bluebird, little/no wind and epic conditions. Man, the mountain was in great shape. Amazing what a couple weeks of soft snow squall weather and some snowmaking can do...



I agree with this summary. Beautiful day. Climbed up in the fire tower and took in the view from Killington to Old Spec.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I agree with this summary. Beautiful day. Climbed up in the fire tower and took in the view from Killington to Old Spec.



I wondered if one could see Old Speck...although it could be the range just outside of Groveton.  Can't wait to see your pics.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2015)

Probably using my 2 passes up there next weekend. Trying to do my part to populate the ghost town. I like having a mountain all to myself, but I don't want to see them suffer financially or anything.


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## freeski (Jan 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I agree with this summary. Beautiful day. Climbed up in the fire tower and took in the view from Killington to Old Spec.


2nd that I hope you took a picture. I love long distance views of ski areas and prominent mountains. BTW, enjoy all of your pictures.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 17, 2015)

A few views from Burke today. I didn't take many pictures lookking S or SW as there was a strong hazy layer in the atmosphere that wouldn't have photographed well.

Baldpate and Old Speck Mountains:


Old Spec_Baldpate by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Mansfield:


Mansfield by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Jay Peak:


JayFromBurke by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Mt Washington:


Washington by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Lafayette-Cannon:


Lafayette_Cannon by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Cool stuff in the sky:


TangentRainbows2 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


----------



## River19 (Jan 18, 2015)

Very nice pictures, thanks for posting


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

How is it possible that MBX is on wind hold this morning?


.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2015)

Its all part of the "plan"!


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

And if the WQ is ready why isn't it spinning on a holiday weekend?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

I bet they're glad that they've been delaying the pass-holder meeting now.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm told that the summit is indeed very windy.  Weird, because the base isn't.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

Poma is down due to mechanical.   Lower mountain is slammed.  At least they'll have some photos now to imply actual crowds.  Kind of like the photos they used from the opening day mechanical holds.   


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## whiskey jack (Jan 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm told that the summit is indeed very windy.  Weird, because the base isn't.



What is so strange about being windy at the top of the mountain rather than the bottom.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

Fire up the Willoughby 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> What is so strange about being windy at the top of the mountain rather than the bottom.


Glad you asked.  What's strange about today is the overall difference.  Usually it's windy everywhere.  My friends at the Sherburne base today didn't report any wind at all even though the MBX was on wind hold.  At my residence there is very little wind.

Odd that they haven't fired up the Willoughby that you assured us was ready to go.  After all, there don't seem to be widespread wind holds today, so the Willoughby sounds like the perfect solution.

I wonder if this is helping them sell any of those fire sale season passes?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

Q Burke posted a phone number on Facebook for people to call for updates on the wind hold.  Take a look at the Facebook comments.  Apparently people have been calling the number but it just rings and rings with no answer.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

Is there any other ski area right now reporting a wind hold?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

Jay Peak has the Flyer open.  The tram is still on wind hold.  If Jay Peak can have the Flyer open, I'm shocked that Q Burke hasn't gotten the Willoughby quad open.  After all, Whiskey Jack reported that it's ready willing and able.


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## ablb (Jan 18, 2015)

Still no answer on the phone. How hard would it be to put a message saying still on wind delay?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 18, 2015)

ablb said:


> Still no answer on the phone. How hard would it be to put a message saying still on wind delay?



That would infer that QJr has at least a modicum of business sense.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2015)

Q Burke stated on their Facebook page that the Mid-Burke, the Willoughby, and the Poma all have the exact same wind tolerance.  Why do I find that hard to believe?

The good news is that the Mid-Burke came online at about 1:00 PM.

I'm still looking for an explanation as to why the Willoughby didn't come online sooner if it was indeed ready to go as Whiskey Jack says.


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## whiskey jack (Jan 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke stated on their Facebook page that the Mid-Burke, the Willoughby, and the Poma all have the exact same wind tolerance.  Why do I find that hard to believe?
> 
> The good news is that the Mid-Burke came online at about 1:00 PM.
> 
> I'm still looking for an explanation as to why the Willoughby didn't come online sooner if it was indeed ready to go as Whiskey Jack says.



I am guessing the wind at tower 17 on the willoughby is about the same as the wind around tower 12 on the MBE. The chairs on the Willoughby are lighter so I would imagine sustained gusts of 35 to 40 would have an even bigger impact on the Willoughby. I heard they had 1 gust of 52.


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## freeski (Jan 18, 2015)

Thank you for the pictures NEK. Mt. Washington is not looking too white up top.

Took this a couple of years ago in March. (sorry, not related to Q)


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## faQ (Jan 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How is it possible that MBX is on wind hold this morning?
> 
> 
> .



I don't have much faith in the Q, although if Burke Ski Patrol says put it on hold, then I'm good with that.


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## ablb (Jan 18, 2015)

According to ski patrol this morning WQ shuts down at 35.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

So did they manage to get the Upper Mountain going?


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## ablb (Jan 18, 2015)

Yes the lift was running again about 12:10.


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## rueler (Jan 18, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Rueler- where are you?   your post got exorcised and we would love to have it back--



I don't know if I have the energy to type all that again. This is the first time I have been on here in a week or so. Sucks going back to work after a vacation.


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## the original trailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

rueler said:


> I don't know if I have the energy to type all that again. This is the first time I have been on here in a week or so. Sucks going back to work after a vacation.


Please.?..


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## zeke (Jan 18, 2015)

from the Facebook page:

GO PATS! Q Burke Mountain Resort representing at the Patriots Place, with our logo on the boards for everyone to see. Catch the big game in the Tamarack with bud/bud light beer specials, giveaways and our football specials menu. LET'S BEAT THEM COLTS!!

what a joke


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## fbrissette (Jan 18, 2015)

What will tomorrow ski conditions be ?   Wet snow on powder ?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> What will tomorrow ski conditions be ?   Wet snow on powder ?



Definitely.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

Ice over packed powder over powder over ice......

Yesterday's ride back to "work-land" was brutal.....6.5 hours for a 3.5 hour ride......people just don't get ice.  Saw 15+ accidents, two separate rolled cars and was stuck in the I-89/93 interchange highway shut down where we sat for about 60-90mins without moving.  Epic ride on the negative side.  I hope everyone made it home in one piece.

I can confirm that the wind was howling at elevation based on what we saw around the notch.....Cannon was packed and looked to have plenty of snow coverage.....every chair going up was filled with no open seats.......


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## faQ (Jan 19, 2015)

My kids school is on a 2 hour delay. Thought we'd make a couple runs this AM....but it turns out q'urke is also on a delay, at least til 10. Really?  


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

On a  hold for what?  Wind is light this morning from what I can tell......

Hoe much snow did they get, or more importantly, any ice?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> ...every chair going up was filled with no open seats...



Something not being seen at Burke...


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## faQ (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> On a  hold for what?  Wind is light this morning from what I can tell......
> 
> Hoe much snow did they get, or more importantly, any ice?



Power went out last night and Q's alarm didn't go off maybe?


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Something not being seen at Burke...



I figured someone would pipe in with a more first hand account at Q.....I just did a drive by on Saturday and saw open trails with only 2 people I could spot from a view of the upper mountain......everyone must have been jumping into the bag.....lol


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

And the winds tomorrow are supposed to be slightly higher.  

I actually feel badly for Burke on this one.  You can't blame them for high winds - and to have the high winds hit on two out of three days over a holiday weekend is piss poor luck.


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## xwhaler (Jan 19, 2015)

Guys, real easy to just check their snow report rather than assumptions/accusations/3rd hand accounts etc that dominate this thread.
Seems it will be very nice up there today. All you Burke fans should go support the mtn and ski it!

*We will be experiencing a short delay this morning due to snow, we ask you to please bear with us until we get things up and going!*
*Thanks to the 6 to 8 inches of fresh powder we got last night, today we’re proud to be operating at 100%, with 5 lifts servicing all 36 trails, 14 glades, and 2 terrain parks we have to offer! Surface conditions are powder over packed powder. *


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

faQ said:


> My kids school is on a 2 hour delay. Thought we'd make a couple runs this AM....but it turns out q'urke is also on a delay, at least til 10. Really?



Did you find out by going to the mountain? Nothing on FB yet, and if they couldn't be bothered to answer the guest services phone on the Sunday of a Holiday Weekend....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

A delay due to snow?????


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## faQ (Jan 19, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Guys, real easy to just check their snow report rather than assumptions/accusations/3rd hand accounts etc that dominate this thread.
> Seems it will be very nice up there today. All you Burke fans should go support the mtn and ski it!
> 
> *We will be experiencing a short delay this morning due to snow, we ask you to please bear with us until we get things up and going!*
> *Thanks to the 6 to 8 inches of fresh powder we got last night, today we’re proud to be operating at 100%, with 5 lifts servicing all 36 trails, 14 glades, and 2 terrain parks we have to offer! Surface conditions are powder over packed powder. *



What assumptions?  How does a ski resort open late due to snow?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

faQ said:


> What assumptions?  How does a ski resort open late due to snow?


Yeah, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.  But if 6-8 inches of snow shuts down your resort something is seriously wrong.


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## xwhaler (Jan 19, 2015)

faQ said:


> What assumptions?  How does a ski resort open late due to snow?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Maybe they need time to groom some of it.....guessing it is heavy wet snow so probably takes a bit more time. So much negativity in this thread in general. Finally Burke gets snow, the mtn is 100% open and you guys are focused on trashing the place rather than focusing on the positive.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

I don't think it's being overly negative to criticize a ski resort that has to shut down because they received 6-8 inches of snow.  Sorry, but you're just not going to convince me otherwise.


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## xwhaler (Jan 19, 2015)

Looks like Sherburne/MBX normally opens at 9 on Mondays. This is a 1 hour delayed opening---not "the ski resort has to shut down" as you suggested.
Let's not make a bigger deal of this than it is. I'm sure the skiing at 10 will be quite nice. Wish I was up there and not here at work!


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## faQ (Jan 19, 2015)

I realize that I am being negative, but when I see BS I call it. I also realize that I am irritated because it snowed and my local hill can't get it together enough to open when they are supposed to. 


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 19, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> *Maybe they need time to groom some of it.....guessing it is heavy wet snow so probably takes a bit more time. *So much negativity in this thread in general. Finally Burke gets snow, the mtn is 100% open and you guys are focused on trashing the place rather than focusing on the positive.



This thread is definitely a wee-bit too negative, but count me in with those who have never heard of a ski resort closing from 6" of snow at the base.  What?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

My guess would be they have to clear ice from the lifts. I'm headed to the mtn in 40 minutes for opening.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

Oh and 3003!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Guys, real easy to just check their snow report rather than assumptions/accusations/3rd hand accounts etc that dominate this thread.
> 
> *We will be experiencing a short delay this morning due to snow, we ask you to please bear with us until we get things up and going!*
> *Thanks to the 6 to 8 inches of fresh powder we got last night, today we’re proud to be operating at 100%, with 5 lifts servicing all 36 trails, 14 glades, and 2 terrain parks we have to offer! Surface conditions are powder over packed powder. *



Except the snow report is usually very lacking, and their FB page wasn't updated until 1 minute ago at 9:26am... when they should have been open and ready to operate at 8:00am. Martin Luther King day is considered a weekend/Holiday day INDUSTRY WIDE!



> *Burke Mountain Resort
> *
> 
> 5 mins ·
> ...



Heavy 8" = Powder? LOL!

Edit: Oh, evidently Qurke doesn't consider MLK weekend or any other holiday period a reason to open earlier in the day...



> _Holiday Periods include December 26th, 2014 through January 3rd, 2015 and February 14th - 22nd, 2015._All rates are subject to change without notice.





> *First / Last Chair LIFTS*
> Sherburne Express: Monday through Fridays 9:00am - 4:00pm, Saturdays & Sundays 8:45am - 4:00pm
> Mid-Burke (Daily):  9:00am - 4:00pm


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

Also they posted their number to call yesterday to check on lift status, then conveniently couldn't be bothered to answer the phone...



> Burke Mountain Resort
> Yesterday at 8:02am
> 
> Morning  Skiers and Riders, although the rest of the day looks promising with  100% chance of snow after 2pm, we are on wind hold at Mid-Burke.  Please  contact guest services for our latest conditions and updates, we'll  keep you posted.(802) 626-7300.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

While I'm not an experienced skier, I know snow and I've never encountered "heavy powder".......this must be something that comes when you have packed powder over powder....lol

Negativity........while there is plenty in this thread.....here is what I take from it; where there is smoke there is usually fire.  Passholders demanded a meeting that hasn't happened yet, snow making had been sub par at best, people are writing into the local paper with problems, the PR department apparently works for some other mountain as they seem to highlight the lack of action and the shoe-string budget comes through in the quality of their work.......etc.

There is plenty to be concerned about.  Is it the end of the world?  Are innocent babies dying?  No.....there is a chance things will eventually work out, but all these things are easily avoidable.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

Really? Guest Services was too busy to ANSWER THEIR PHONE??!!



> Peter Delaney Still no answers on 802 626 7300. How can we find out when lift is open?
> 
> Like · Reply · 23 hrs
> 
> ...






> Kevin Shpritzer Just called that number a couple of times, but there were no answers. Any updates?
> 
> Like · Reply · 23 hrs
> 
> ...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> .....here is what I take from it; where there is smoke there is usually fire.



Exactly!


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Except the snow report is usually very lacking, and *their FB page wasn't updated until 1 minute ago at 9:26am.*.. when they should have been open and ready to operate at 8:00am. Martin Luther King day is considered a weekend/Holiday day INDUSTRY WIDE!



As ski resorts have increasingly come to understand that it's tough to BS conditions reports in the social-media age, this "delaying" of negative postings has become a favored tactic.  

For example, lets say the average time of a daily Facebook/Twitter report release for a hypothetical ski area is 7:46am.  What I've been seeing is on days with "bad news" of conditions, wind holds, etc... the daily report will come out at around 8:52 - in other words, at a time when the vast majority of your customers will have already made the "GO-NO/GO" decision and are en route to your place of business. 




MEtoVTSkier said:


> *Heavy 8" = Powder? LOL!*



This is a huge pet-peeve of mine as well.  

ANY snow is called "powder", even when it's tough-slogging cement like today's snowfall.  That, and when resorts will call 1" of new snow "powder" - both drive me nuts.   

Some of the Pocono resorts are the worst for this, Camelback will get 1/2 of snow and eBlast a post to_ "come get the POWDER!!!!!!"_ or other such nonsense.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Maybe they need time to groom some of it.....guessing it is heavy wet snow so probably takes a bit more time. So much negativity in this thread in general. Finally Burke gets snow, the mtn is 100% open and you guys are focused on trashing the place rather than focusing on the positive.



Have you read any of the thread?

Icing can be an issue; but delay due to snow is bizarre you must admit.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Except the snow report is usually very lacking, and their FB page wasn't updated until 1 minute ago at 9:26am... when they should have been open and ready to operate at 8:00am. Martin Luther King day is considered a weekend/Holiday day INDUSTRY WIDE!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Re: Lift Hours.  Burke DID open at 8:00am for weekends and holidays one season.  It apparently did not work for them.  They've pretty much always been a 9-4 operation.


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## xwhaler (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Have you read any of the thread?
> 
> Icing can be an issue; but delay due to snow is bizarre you must admit.


Have read all of it---lot of good interesting discussion and I value the knowledge/insight many locals have provided. Just feel that the overall tone is quite negative and every little thing is scrutinized.
I know the day I was up there in Late December was amazing---the operation ran well and the conditions were very good.
But everyone is passionate and I get that---just wish some of the good things Burke does could be celebrated. 
Realize Ary has made some mistakes but everyone seems to have written him off entirely---nothing he can do will be good at this point?

p.s. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks this way----guessing there is a group of folks who would rather not get into the back and forth with the 4-6 hardcore posters of this thread.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Have read all of it---lot of good interesting discussion and I value the knowledge/insight many locals have provided. Just feel that the overall tone is quite negative and every little thing is scrutinized.
> I know the day I was up there in Late December was amazing---the operation ran well and the conditions were very good.
> But everyone is passionate and I get that---just wish some of the good things Burke does could be celebrated.
> Realize Ary has made some mistakes but everyone seems to have written him off entirely---nothing he can do will be good at this point?
> ...



Well, I think the correct phrase is that Ary has written off his own customers.  When you see it that way I think you can understand why people feel the way that they do.  

And regarding today, I know that if any other place delayed operations on a "powder" day folks would be pissed.  It's happened at Sugarbush.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2015)

Must have been a short staffing issue?  I haven't seen anywhere else delay opening today.  Yesterday in Central NH the roads were the worst I've seen in a long time due to the freezing rain.  If it was anything like that up in Burke, I'm sure some of their staff (groomers, lift operations etc.) may have struggled to make it to work on time.  Most ski areas anticipate these problems and overcome them though. 

If it was a lift icing issue, that should be announced on Facebook and the snow report.  But saying the opening was delayed because of 6" of snow is really bizarre.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

Well I'm back at the house to grab my skins (I knew I should have brought them in the first place :dunce. The heavy snow had some branches leaning on the lift line. Three patrollers with a chainsaw made it to the first tower before the lift shut off again. Word is there are "power problems" and it is unknown how long until they figure out what is wrong. The crowd watched the patrollers get evacuated from the chair and then everyone left or headed to the lower mtn.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well I'm back at the house to grab my skins (I knew I should have brought them in the first place :dunce. The heavy snow had some branches leaning on the lift line. Three patrollers with a chainsaw made it to the first tower before the lift shut off again. Word is there are "power problems" and it is unknown how long until they figure out what is wrong. The crowd watched the patrollers get evacuated from the chair and then everyone left or headed to the lower mtn.



There are some power outages in the area due to the weather from what I can tell.

And obviously branches in close proximity to the line is a very valid safety concern to address I believe, right?

"Heavy Powder"?  lol


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Mid-Burke began running at noon.  

Here is a comment on their Facebook page that is pretty sad to read:
Hey Burke, season pass holder for many years, and I'm disappointed in the customer service this weekend. I understand lifts close for weather and power reasons, so I have zero complaint about that. However, the communication is severely lacking. We've been in the mid lodge for about two hours (it's 11:25 now), and not a single Burke employee has explained the lift situation to the dozens of customers waiting here. Everyone is guessing and continually checking this FB page for updates, but none are to be found. Aside for the lack of information and customer service, there was no food or drink service available up here for a couple of hours as well.

And another:
If this were happening at any other mountain it would be considered unacceptable. Burke you are lucky to have such forgiving customers. This customer is not so forgiving. You've held my ski day hostage with minimal communication. Shame on you. Something has to change here.

One last one:
Customer service & information regarding the lift not working at mid-Burke is severely disappointing today. Where is customer relations keeping your patrons happy? Not important to you guys?

Q Burke responded as follows:
Hey Everyone, we appreciate the feedback and concerns relating to the morning. Mid Burke Cafeteria is closed Monday through Friday and only serving on weekends. 9am-4pm. Guest Services and Staff were updated as quickly as possible from our lift operators who were working as quickly as they could to de-ice. Customer service is always top priority. With the influx of calls and eagerness of our patrons to get out there, they were doing the best they could with the information available.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Their Facebook page described the snow as "creamy".  

If this was indeed an icing issue, could the delay have been avoided by having staff come in earlier?  Burke has just two lifts that they really need to have running, one of which is necessary to access the main mountain.

What's really scary is that, even just from a customer service perspective, Ary shows absolutely no signs of learning from his mistakes.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

It's time for Ary to declare victory and go home.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

While it may make sense to not have the cafeteria at Mid Burke open M-F.......the Monday of one of your largest holiday ski weekends should be treated differently......it makes all the sense in the world to be open 9-4 today serving like a weekend.  Lost revenue.

to the poster who thought this thread was negative, and I agree it is negative......it is the negative experience many long time paying customers seem to encounter week after week after week.  You couldn't mishandle each situation more consistently wrong if you tried, really you can't.  

Every time a situation comes up, whether it is a defining moment in dealing with a beloved local organization, or simple day to day ski operations.....if one door is a steaming pile of poo and one is nirvana.....Jr takes the poo door, every time......and it isn't hard to avoid any of these things....really it isn't.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

Only 3 hrs late?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> It's time for Ary to declare victory and go home.



Before the passholders/condo owners put a price on his head! :lol:


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 19, 2015)

OK, I need to vent-  others have said that this forum is too negative?

REALLY?-  no food and Bev at Mid-Burke on a Monday federal holiday? Why, why would anyone book a 3 day weekend there if you cannot buy a cup of coffee where you put your boots on?

 the communications yesterday around the wind hold yesterday was no better than today.

no Willoughby yesterday- perhaps it was too windy for that as well, but at least using the crew to dust it off would have been a nice gesture while waiting the the MBE.  Then if the wind was in the zone too much for MBE but OK for Willoughby they could have had a lift? 

Poma broken-  why?  because the snowmaking staff plastered one of the towers and the sheaves were clogged with frozen glop-  then the lift crew ran it w/o understanding that they were about to destroy 3 sheaves.  Only 2 spares in stock.  So maybe some parts in today or tomorrow?

we do not need to rehash the snowmaking debacle other than to say they are still behind every resort in the east.

Ary publicly declares hating KT and ambivalence (at best) towards Burke Mountain Academy.  It seems that the mountain is also making moves to eliminate local high school ski racing at Burke. (so much for being a good citizen locally)

Word on the street is that there is no money for the building of an indoor mtn bike park and that they are looking for investors who might like to help with a more upsacle 2nd season offering-  a tennis resort.  (no doubt playing to the strength of the region as a mecca for upscale folks)

The best I can do is say that I am sad-  if the hotel gets built, it will be an albatross until someone with less hubris, some small understanding of customer service, and perhaps a little bit of vision comes along.

Right now Ary is trying to show that he can "turn the place around" by a) cutting corners on customer service b) cutting expenses on the backs of his staff & c) cutting his marketing budget to a pitiful level.  As someone who has built a couple of pretty successful ventures (one in the tourist vacation sector) this does not appear to be headed in a positive direction.  While Bill Stenger walked in the Door with Ary's dad, it is very clear why he is now no where to be seen.

cherish every day the lifts run because this smells like it will end badly & the end will be ugly-  likely lots of local holding a the bag.

end of rant.






VTKilarney said:


> Mid-Burke began running at noon.
> 
> Here is a comment on their Facebook page that is pretty sad to read:
> Hey Burke, season pass holder for many years, and I'm disappointed in the customer service this weekend. I understand lifts close for weather and power reasons, so I have zero complaint about that. However, the communication is severely lacking. We've been in the mid lodge for about two hours (it's 11:25 now), and not a single Burke employee has explained the lift situation to the dozens of customers waiting here. Everyone is guessing and continually checking this FB page for updates, but none are to be found. Aside for the lack of information and customer service, there was no food or drink service available up here for a couple of hours as well.
> ...


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A delay due to snow?????


Yeah I've been to Utah when lifts were delayed because of snow. That was mostly due to giving ski patrol time to blow up the avalanches though. Don't think Burke had that problem.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

When I think of tennis I don't think of it as a growing sport.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah I've been to Utah when lifts were delayed because of snow. That was mostly due to giving ski patrol time to blow up the avalanches though. Don't think Burke had that problem.



Exactly.  Avalanche is different.  

Sounds like they had icing and overhanging tree issues.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2015)

Most of the former indoor tennis clubs I see around New England are being converted to other athletic uses.  The local Gym in my town was once an 8 court indoor facility.  It now has 4 courts with the rest of the space converted to a traditional fitness club.  

I love to play, but no doubt it's not a sport on the rise.  It really should be.  Extremely affordable compared with Mountain Biking, skiing, golf......for the joe schmo rec player like myself.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> OK, I need to vent-  others have said that this forum is too negative?
> 
> REALLY?-  no food and Bev at Mid-Burke on a Monday federal holiday? Why, why would anyone book a 3 day weekend there if you cannot buy a cup of coffee where you put your boots on?
> 
> ...



+ 1.


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## xwhaler (Jan 19, 2015)

I too would be upset if they didn't have the Willoughby as a backup plan. 
I've been critical of Magic in the past relying solely on the Red Chair and when that goes down Black is not ready.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

I still don't understand the windhold issue.  Yesterday sounds like the rare occasion when the direction is just right.  They almost never had the Willoughby closed.


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## yeggous (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I still don't understand the windhold issue.  Yesterday sounds like the rare occasion when the direction is just right.  They almost never had the Willoughby closed.



Most of Cannon was on wind hold yesterday too. It was windy.


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## oldtimer (Jan 19, 2015)

I hiked on Sunday.  It was that windy.  Clearly the MBE could not run in the mid-morning.  The top couple of towers stick right up. and the charis were swinging hard.  I didn't go down the Willoughby line to the tower near the knoll of Foxes where it gets the most wind so I don't know about that one.  The Willoughby is pretty protected on the top couple of towers.  You are coirrect that historically it is very rare for that lift to have closed.

Today was ice-  last night's event sucked-  rain onto steel cable and sheaves that were still well below freezing temps.  not sure of all the issues they had on the MBE but it started with ice on both, NOT snow.  sadly, they do not understand that reporting that the lifts cannot run due to 6" of snow makes them look just as stupid as they are.





thetrailboss said:


> I still don't understand the windhold issue.  Yesterday sounds like the rare occasion when the direction is just right.  They almost never had the Willoughby closed.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

Just an observation........when we came through the notch past Cannon yesterday it was about 10:45-11am, it was windy as hell, some of the highest over the past several years (we make about 40 round trips per year through there) and the lower lift visible from 93 was cranking, every chair filled.  could have been due to the others being closed, but they were skiing and it was busy.  Tram was closed however (I saw the sign).

I don't remember Burke ever having this many wind holds and it hasn't been any more windy this year than others from what I can tell.


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## oldtimer (Jan 19, 2015)

The new lift MBE is much more wind sensitive than the Willoughy.   The online info about the Poma closed for wind was nonsense.  The Poma is broken--- plain and simple.  At 4pm Sunday there still sticks hung on the wire.  When the lift is all good the sticks are all tucked away in the base station.  Poma staff sat around all day Saturday-   did not spend the day Sunday hanging out, nor was anyone working on the towers on Sunday.




River19 said:


> Just an observation........when we came through the notch past Cannon yesterday it was about 10:45-11am, it was windy as hell, some of the highest over the past several years (we make about 40 round trips per year through there) and the lower lift visible from 93 was cranking, every chair filled.  could have been due to the others being closed, but they were skiing and it was busy.  Tram was closed however (I saw the sign).
> 
> I don't remember Burke ever having this many wind holds and it hasn't been any more windy this year than others from what I can tell.


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## yeggous (Jan 19, 2015)

Killington and Bretton Woods had delayed lift openings today too.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

The key to Burke is that one lift shuts down the whole mountain.   If it means having staff show up early to get it running on MLK day, then that's what needs to be done.  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> The online info about the Poma closed for wind was nonsense.  The Poma is broken--- plain and simple.  At 4pm Sunday there still sticks hung on the wire.  When the lift is all good the sticks are all tucked away in the base station.  Poma staff sat around all day Saturday-   did not spend the day Sunday hanging out, nor was anyone working on the towers on Sunday.



So "Team Beaverkill" should actually be called "Team Sheavetrainkill" ??  ;-)


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## oldtimer (Jan 19, 2015)

+1-  well done.




MEtoVTSkier said:


> So "Team Beaverkill" should actually be called "Team Sheavetrainkill" ??  ;-)


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## dmw (Jan 19, 2015)

Someone needs to organize a protest - "Burke Lives Matter."


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Somebody told me that they heard that the poma was running on Saturday afternoon.  The snow report shows the poma as being open today.


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## oldtimer (Jan 19, 2015)

Poma never carried a person on Saturday.  I was within sight of it.  They got the stacks that had jammed mostly down the mountain.   As of 4 pm Sunday those sticks were still right above tower one in a cluster on the wire.   The Poma did not run prior to 1100 this a.m.-  there were plenty of folks in mid-burke who would have loved to ride it.  Some youth racers were hiking to train out of frustration.  The Poma was not doing its job.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Poma never carried a person on Saturday.  I was within sight of it.  They got the stacks that had jammed mostly down the mountain.   As of 4 pm Sunday those sticks were still right above tower one in a cluster on the wire.   The Poma did not run prior to 1100 this a.m.-  there were plenty of folks in mid-burke who would have loved to ride it.  Some youth racers were hiking to train out of frustration.  The *CEO/GM* was not doing *his* job.



Fixed it for you


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

So sad


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

Wouldn't you know it. By the time I got back to the Mtn the MBX had been running for 20 minutes. I'll just say conditions were  over powder .


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

What's really concerning is that this is the second time this season that, after a storm with a predictable potential for icing, Q Burke failed to get a crew up on the mountain in time to get the lift going at a reasonable hour.  It's almost as if nothing is going to stop Ary from pinching pennies.  I'm afraid that we've gotten well past the point where this has become penny wise but pound foolish.

Their Facebook page is encouraging people to share their "POW stories" from today.  Gotta love it.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's really concerning is that this is the second time this season that, after a storm with a predictable potential for icing, Q Burke failed to get a crew up on the mountain in time to get the lift going at a reasonable hour.  It's almost as if nothing is going to stop Ary from pinching pennies.  I'm afraid that we've gotten well past the point where this has become penny wise but pound foolish.
> 
> Their Facebook page is encouraging people to share their "POW stories" from today.  Gotta love it.



6-8" of heavy wet slop after it changed over from freezing rain and sleet and they want POW stories?  Love it.

How many weeks ago did Jr. agree to schedule a passholders meeting?  Must be some very elaborate plans being made for said meeting as it is sure taking a long time.  I can have one of our admins help him out if he has trouble scheduling things.....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

The assumption is that they were delaying the pass holder meeting for as long as possible so that snow would come and people would be happier by the time the meeting rolled around.  That plan backfired since now there are two holiday periods that have upset people.

They stated on Monday of last week that a date would be announced by the end of the week.  Obviously that never happened.  The delay in scheduling the meeting reaffirms the worry that they don't give a rat's ass about their pass holders.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The assumption is that they were delaying the pass holder meeting for as long as possible so that snow would come and people would be happier by the time the meeting rolled around.  That plan backfired since now there are two holiday periods that have upset people.
> 
> They stated on Monday of last week that a date would be announced by the end of the week.  Obviously that never happened.  The delay in scheduling the meeting reaffirms the worry that they don't give a rat's ass about their pass holders.



This just out...the Passholder Meeting has been conveniently scheduled for the first Sunday in June at 4:45pm.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> 6-8" of heavy wet slop after it changed over from freezing rain and sleet and they want POW stories?  Love it.



Ummm, because it was genuine powder on the upper 3/4th of the mountain.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Ummm, because it was genuine powder on the upper 3/4th of the mountain.



And that is a good answer.  Fantastic.  A friend went up and over the mountain on a snowmobile ride and said it was heavy crap all the way up......

RE: Passholders meeting.........they aren't serious with a June date are they?  I was under the impression the PH's wanted to hear how they will improve things etc. for the rest of the ski season?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> And that is a good answer.  Fantastic.  A friend went up and over the mountain on a snowmobile ride and said it was heavy crap all the way up......
> 
> RE: Passholders meeting.........they aren't serious with a June date are they?  I was under the impression the PH's wanted to hear how they will improve things etc. for the rest of the ski season?



I was joking.


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## whiskey jack (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't think it's being overly negative to criticize a ski resort that has to shut down because they received 6-8 inches of snow.  Sorry, but you're just not going to convince me otherwise.



Are you sure it was all snow? Didint it rain quite hard through the evening. Seems to me that would lead to icing of the grips.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

I just repeated what their Facebook page said.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Are you sure it was all snow? Didint it rain quite hard through the evening. Seems to me that would lead to icing of the grips.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Poma (and Doppelmayr) recommend that HSQ's and other detachable chairs be operated continuously during icing events to prevent problems?  I.e. they run the lift overnight so that things don't freeze up?


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## faQ (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Poma (and Doppelmayr) recommend that HSQ's and other detachable chairs be operated continuously during icing events to prevent problems?  I.e. they run the lift overnight so that things don't freeze up?



Yes, the last mtn ops guy did this. 


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## steamboat1 (Jan 19, 2015)

If it's any consolation K also had quite a few lift issues this morning. Quite a few of the detachable lifts were delayed for some time.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I was joking.



Thank God......sadly, it was completely believable......


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> If it's any consolation K also had quite a few lift issues this morning. Quite a few of the detachable lifts were delayed for some time.


Over on K-Zone there is a lot of discussion about how badly Killington handled the situation.

In any event, I don't think that people are upset at the fact that there was ice.  They appear to be upset at how management handles situations such as this.  

Such as: 
1) Not calling in your crew early so the lift could open sooner.
2) Not having the cafeteria open where your customers are patiently waiting.  Why?  Because it's a Monday goddammit and we don't open on weekdays!
3) Telling everyone that the lift is not running because there was 6-8 inches of snow.
4) Giving an absurd estimate as to when the lift would be running - and sliding the estimate as needed.

But maybe I'm being overly critical.  After all, they did just post a video of Burkie the Bear taking a turn at the Acrobag.  And Wednesday is pizza night.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2015)

Facebook comments.....yikes......but we don't want the thread to get negative......so let's find a positive.....it could have been all ice.....

From FB:

"I agree with what everyone here has said. Weather happens and mechanical issues happen. We know the lift crew was busting their butts trying to get the lift spinning and there are a lot of things that are out of your control. However, there are many things that are within your control and when s**t goes down its those little things that make all the difference to your guests. You are a ski mountain, but first and foremost you are in the hospitality business and taking care of your guests should be just as important as getting the lifts spinning. When you know there will be a delay, a representative with a walkie talkie should be sent up to the mid lodge immediately to field questions and provide updates so people aren't just standing around guessing and staring at the lift. At the very least someone should be there to offer complimentary coffee, tea, and/or hot chocolate for waiting guests. It's a small gesture that goes a long way to acknowledge the inconvenience being put on your guests and shows that you're doing everything to make things right. Also, if you give out a phone number for people to call for updates, someone should actually be answering the phone. These are basic moves within the hospitality industry. Does Burke have a seasoned hospitality manager on staff? Someone who has many years working at the GM level in a hotel or restaurant? If not you need to recruit someone ASAP if you want to have a chance to be a successful hospitality group. By the way things were handled today and from recent poor experiences at the Tamarack it's clear that there is no professional leadership nor process in place, and your staff are not given the tools they need to succeed. Whatever you are doing now is clearly not working.

We have been season pass holders at Burke for almost a decade and we know that Burke's fan base is as loyal as they come and are willing to have some patience when things like this happen. But the people who visit for the first time will see the whole scenario as amateur hour and never come back. We were overhearing conversations among new faces in the lodge that had us feeling embarrassed considering how much we boast about Burke and how much we love it. Many of us have emotional and financial investments in Burke and we want nothing more than to see it succeed. Today was very upsetting and not just because we couldn't ski. It was because we felt like were watching our beloved Burke Mountain falling apart at the seams."


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Yeah, the Facebook comments are as pointed as I have ever seen.  


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

Rule number one in customer service...manage your customers expectations. Inform, inform, inform.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

I just read those Facebook posts.  Wow.  Those are scathing.


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I just read those Facebook posts.  Wow.  Those are scathing.



Post 'em here!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Post 'em here!


There is too much to post.  

Here are some highlights:

- I find this unbelievable, time for Q to just walk away and let someone with some semblance of hospitality and ski experience step in.......

- So Ari, you are doing the best you can? No apologies for not starting lifts earlier or have the cafeteria open on one of the largest ski holidays? Well shame on you...might be time to quit the "Q".

- If you can't manage better results than what you've shown everyone over this HOLIDAY weekend, perhaps you should consider a different type of business to manage.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Serious question...

At what point do these blunders force a drop in season pass prices?  He's already de facto lowered the price by non-stop promotional discounts, but at some point will he have to lower the price across the board?

I actually think that a cheap season pass could help fill the hotel.  If he offered a season's pass at something like $450, and marketed it heavily in Massachusetts and Connecticut, a lot of people may buy passes and spend a few nights per season in the hotel.  

Another idea would be to offer a discount if you reserve a set number of nights in the hotel.  But this would definitely piss off the locals.


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## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2015)

Not sure i would by a season pass to a place that was 3 hrs away and when i skied there I had to rent a hotel room every time.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure i would by a season pass to a place that was 3 hrs away and when i skied there I had to rent a hotel room every time.



Or one that does not have its shit in order. 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure i would by a season pass to a place that was 3 hrs away and when i skied there I had to rent a hotel room every time.


I guess I was thinking that for people who will do this anyway it would be a good deal.  But your point is well taken.  There aren't enough people who fall into that category to justify a price reduction for that reason alone.


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## halfpintvt (Jan 19, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Post 'em here!


  Here they are, I tried to eliminate pictures etc. 


Kevin Shpritzer  Hey Burke, season pass holder for many years, and I'm disappointed in the customer service this weekend. I understand lifts close for weather and power reasons, so I have zero complaint about that. However, the communication is severely lacking. We've been in the mid lodge for about two hours (it's 11:25 now), and not a single Burke employee has explained the lift situation to the dozens of customers waiting here. Everyone is guessing and continually checking this FB page for updates, but none are to be found. Aside for the lack of information and customer service, there was no food or drink service available up here for a couple of hours as well.

Tamer Alamuddin Just to add to this thread, today is MLK day which is a holiday for many. To not have the mid burke cafeteria open is ridiculous. As a condo owner I want this resort to succeed and yet often management seems deliberately obtuse. In addition there was no single line at sherburn, which of course being mlk and with top lift hold... Was packed. Lack of communication also key issue and no excuse for sherburn not opening on time, deicing should happen earlier.

Daniel Ian Smith This is inexcusable on a holiday weekend and even more so given the struggle with snow this season. now we get fresh coverage over night and you can't get out first thing to ski in it? No communication? This is business 101 stuff. I'm so disappointed. It's clear the new owner is a novice and this mountain is a plaything for him. Read the posts below and the posts that have gone up over the past weeks. SO many people believe in and are committed to this mountain and have been so patient. You can only take advantage of people's good graces and patience for so long. There is a great opportunity here to make this work, so easily.

Rebecca Ong-Sutherland I agree with what everyone here has said. Weather happens and mechanical issues happen. We know the lift crew was busting their butts trying to get the lift spinning and there are a lot of things that are out of your control. However, there are many things that are within your control and when s**t goes down its those little things that make all the difference to your guests. You are a ski mountain, but first and foremost you are in the hospitality business and taking care of your guests should be just as important as getting the lifts spinning. When you know there will be a delay, a representative with a walkie talkie should be sent up to the mid lodge immediately to field questions and provide updates so people aren't just standing around guessing and staring at the lift. At the very least someone should be there to offer complimentary coffee, tea, and/or hot chocolate for waiting guests. It's a small gesture that goes a long way to acknowledge the inconvenience being put on your guests and shows that you're doing everything to make things right. Also, if you give out a phone number for people to call for updates, someone should actually be answering the phone. These are basic moves within the hospitality industry. Does Burke have a seasoned hospitality manager on staff? Someone who has many years working at the GM level in a hotel or restaurant? If not you need to recruit someone ASAP if you want to have a chance to be a successful hospitality group. By the way things were handled today and from recent poor experiences at the Tamarack it's clear that there is no professional leadership nor process in place, and your staff are not given the tools they need to succeed. Whatever you are doing now is clearly not working. 

We have been season pass holders at Burke for almost a decade and we know that Burke's fan base is as loyal as they come and are willing to have some patience when things like this happen. But the people who visit for the first time will see the whole scenario as amateur hour and never come back. We were overhearing conversations among new faces in the lodge that had us feeling embarrassed considering how much we boast about Burke and how much we love it. Many of us have emotional and financial investments in Burke and we want nothing more than to see it succeed. Today was very upsetting and not just because we couldn't ski. It was because we felt like were watching our beloved Burke Mountain falling apart at the seams.

Gerard Hoar Well stated. I remember a time when the predominant conversation on the chairlift was not about the pathetic management.

Rebecca Ong-Sutherland Totally. I want my chairlift conversations to only be about what ropes we are going to duck next! 



Michael A. Stahler Well said, Rebecca. 
 
Amy Galvin Lachapelle If this were happening at any other mountain it would be considered unacceptable. Burke you are lucky to have such forgiving customers. This customer is not so forgiving. You've held my ski day hostage with minimal communication. Shame on you. Something has to change here.

Maureen OConnell Parker Common sense...how's about stringing the ropes out at Sherburne "Express"so the two thousand people skiing to the bottom know where to cattle in. Get rid of the terrain parkees singles line so more skiers can move. I guess that takes initiative and Q isn't ,won't , or can't do it! Pretty sad...And bring back Guiness to mid Burke.

Kyle Sipples On Saturday the 10th you said that a date for the pass holder meeting would be announced by the end of last week. It can't take that long to pick a date. Hopefully an announcement is coming.

Gerard Hoar I'll second that.


Steven Joyce      Sad really......... 
 
Gina Peloso Customer service & information regarding the lift not working at mid-Burke is severely disappointing today. Where is customer relations keeping your patrons happy? Not important to you guys?


·


Burke Mountain Resort Hey Everyone, we appreciate the feedback and concerns relating to the morning. Mid Burke Cafeteria is closed Monday through Friday and only serving on weekends. 9am-4pm. Guest Services and Staff were updated as quickly as possible from our lift operators who were working as quickly as they could to de-ice. Customer service is always top priority. With the influx of calls and eagerness of our patrons to get out there, they were doing the best they could with the information available.


Howard Bunta So Ari, you are doing the best you can? No apologies      for not starting lifts earlier or have the cafeteria open on one of the      largest ski holidays? Well shame on you...might be time to quit the      "Q". 
 
Abby Carey Honestly, it was no surprise to anyone that weather was coming in yesterday. You really need to get on the ball and have any and all situations under control so you can open on time for PAYING customers. If you need to start the work day 3hrs early to counter-act delays, then do it! If you can't manage better results than what you've shown everyone over this HOLIDAY weekend, perhaps you should consider a different type of business to manage.

Patty FrechetteBurke Mountain Resort When is the pass holders meeting? It was stated a while ago we'd know a date ASAP.

Alex Bolcon Cafeteria closed on a Monday holiday? Terrible customer service. No wonder you guys have been operating at a loss for 10 years.
Connor Ian Damn straight bud

Miguel Figueroa That makes no sense ! Mlk is one of the biggest ski holiday since is three day weekend for most ! That's what I call rookie mistake !


Steven Joyce      I find this unbelievable, time for Q to just walk away and let someone      with some semblance of hospitality and ski experience step in....... 
 Connor Ian Burke yet again you disappoint us


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

Curious as to why you think it would piss off locals?


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## halfpintvt (Jan 19, 2015)

See post # 3070, read em and weep! "And much it grieves my heart to see what Q has made of Burke"


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

ablb said:


> Curious as to why you think it would piss off locals?



Locals won't need to stay in the hotel.  So by offering cheaper passes non-locals, the locals will be pissed.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

So let's be brutally honest about two points.  First, there is not going to be any season passholder meeting.  That clearly was someone's idea to appease folks and Q has either fired that person or flat out rejected the idea.  Even if one does not happen I can tell you one person who will "not show" nor care and that it the person that is the problem.  

Second, forget running a ski area let alone a hotel.  These folks can't run a business.  If what folks are saying is right Q did not have enough people to even ANSWER the telephone on Sunday.  That is pathetic.  And on a critical holiday?  That is fatal.  Q has run out every single person with substantial industry experience.  He has forced out folks in every major department.  Nobody is going to work for him.  

I have never seen it this bad ever at Burke.  It really hurts.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jan 19, 2015)

Season Pass Holders and  others offer their opinions about Q Burke Mountain's MLK weekend  service. Cut and pasted from the Burke Mountain Resort Facebook page :smile:

Kevin Shpritzer  Hey Burke,  season pass holder for many years, and I'm disappointed in the customer  service this weekend. I understand lifts close for weather and power  reasons, so I have zero complaint about that. However, the communication  is severely lacking. We've been in the mid lodge for about two hours  (it's 11:25 now), and not a single Burke employee has explained the lift  situation to the dozens of customers waiting here. Everyone is guessing  and continually checking this FB page for updates, but none are to be  found. Aside for the lack of information and customer service, there was  no food or drink service available up here for a couple of hours as  well.


Tamer Alamuddin  Just to add to this thread, today is MLK day which is a holiday for  many. To not have the mid burke cafeteria open is ridiculous. As a condo  owner I want this resort to succeed and yet often management seems  deliberately obtuse. In addition there was no single line at sherburn,  which of course being mlk and with top lift hold... Was packed. Lack of  communication also key issue and no excuse for sherburn not opening on  time, deicing should happen earlier.

Daniel Ian Smith  This is inexcusable on a holiday weekend and even more so given the  struggle with snow this season. now we get fresh coverage over night and  you can't get out first thing to ski in it? No communication? This is  business 101 stuff. I'm so disappointed. It's clear the new owner is a  novice and this mountain is a plaything for him. Read the posts below  and the posts that have gone up over the past weeks. SO many people  believe in and are committed to this mountain and have been so patient.  You can only take advantage of people's good graces and patience for so  long. There is a great opportunity here to make this work, so easily.

Rebecca Ong-Sutherland  I agree with what everyone here has said. Weather happens and  mechanical issues happen. We know the lift crew was busting their butts  trying to get the lift spinning and there are a lot of things that are  out of your control. However, there are many things that are within your  control and when s**t goes down its those little things that make all  the difference to your guests. You are a ski mountain, but first and  foremost you are in the hospitality business and taking care of your  guests should be just as important as getting the lifts spinning. When  you know there will be a delay, a representative with a walkie talkie  should be sent up to the mid lodge immediately to field questions and  provide updates so people aren't just standing around guessing and  staring at the lift. At the very least someone should be there to offer  complimentary coffee, tea, and/or hot chocolate for waiting guests. It's  a small gesture that goes a long way to acknowledge the inconvenience  being put on your guests and shows that you're doing everything to make  things right. Also, if you give out a phone number for people to call  for updates, someone should actually be answering the phone. These are  basic moves within the hospitality industry. Does Burke have a seasoned  hospitality manager on staff? Someone who has many years working at the  GM level in a hotel or restaurant? If not you need to recruit someone  ASAP if you want to have a chance to be a successful hospitality group.  By the way things were handled today and from recent poor experiences at  the Tamarack it's clear that there is no professional leadership nor  process in place, and your staff are not given the tools they need to  succeed. Whatever you are doing now is clearly not working. 

We have been season pass holders at Burke for almost a decade and we  know that Burke's fan base is as loyal as they come and are willing to  have some patience when things like this happen. But the people who  visit for the first time will see the whole scenario as amateur hour and  never come back. We were overhearing conversations among new faces in  the lodge that had us feeling embarrassed considering how much we boast  about Burke and how much we love it. Many of us have emotional and  financial investments in Burke and we want nothing more than to see it  succeed. Today was very upsetting and not just because we couldn't ski.  It was because we felt like were watching our beloved Burke Mountain  falling apart at the seams.

Gerard Hoar Well stated. I remember a time when the predominant conversation on the chairlift was not about the pathetic management.

Rebecca Ong-Sutherland Totally. I want my chairlift conversations to only be about what ropes we are going to duck next! 




Michael A. Stahler Well said, Rebecca.


Amy Galvin Lachapelle  If this were happening at any other mountain it would be considered  unacceptable. Burke you are lucky to have such forgiving customers. This  customer is not so forgiving. You've held my ski day hostage with  minimal communication. Shame on you. Something has to change here.

Maureen OConnell Parker  Common sense...how's about stringing the ropes out at Sherburne  "Express"so the two thousand people skiing to the bottom know where to  cattle in. Get rid of the terrain parkees singles line so more skiers  can move. I guess that takes initiative and Q isn't ,won't , or can't do  it! Pretty sad...And bring back Guiness to mid Burke.

Kyle Sipples  On Saturday the 10th you said that a date for the pass holder meeting  would be announced by the end of last week. It can't take that long to  pick a date. Hopefully an announcement is coming.

Gerard Hoar I'll second that.



Steven Joyce      Sad really.........


Gina Peloso  Customer service & information regarding the lift not working at  mid-Burke is severely disappointing today. Where is customer relations  keeping your patrons happy? Not important to you guys?


·


Burke Mountain Resort  Hey Everyone, we appreciate the feedback and concerns relating to the  morning. Mid Burke Cafeteria is closed Monday through Friday and only  serving on weekends. 9am-4pm. Guest Services and Staff were updated as  quickly as possible from our lift operators who were working as quickly  as they could to de-ice. Customer service is always top priority. With  the influx of calls and eagerness of our patrons to get out there, they  were doing the best they could with the information available.



Howard Bunta  So Ari, you are doing the best you can? No apologies      for not  starting lifts earlier or have the cafeteria open on one of the       largest ski holidays? Well shame on you...might be time to quit the       "Q".


Abby Carey  Honestly, it was no surprise to anyone that weather was coming in  yesterday. You really need to get on the ball and have any and all  situations under control so you can open on time for PAYING customers.  If you need to start the work day 3hrs early to counter-act delays, then  do it! If you can't manage better results than what you've shown  everyone over this HOLIDAY weekend, perhaps you should consider a  different type of business to manage.

Patty FrechetteBurke Mountain Resort When is the pass holders meeting? It was stated a while ago we'd know a date ASAP.

Alex Bolcon Cafeteria closed on a Monday holiday? Terrible customer service. No wonder you guys have been operating at a loss for 10 years.


Connor Ian Damn straight bud

Miguel Figueroa  That makes no sense ! Mlk is one of the biggest ski holiday since is  three day weekend for most ! That's what I call rookie mistake !



Steven Joyce       I find this unbelievable, time for Q to just walk away and let  someone      with some semblance of hospitality and ski experience step  in.......

Connor Ian Burke yet again you disappoint us​


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Locals won't need to stay in the hotel.  So by offering cheaper passes non-locals, the locals will be pissed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



Most local season pass holders have a vested interest in the mountain being viable.  I don't see many folks buying a cheap pass and staying at the hotel.  Out of state pass holders make up most of the seasonal condo rental market. I have three units, all rented to race families. Not sure that is the target market for the hotel.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

ablb said:


> Most local season pass holders have a vested interest in the mountain being viable.  I don't see many folks buying a cheap pass and staying at the hotel.  Out of state pass holders make up most of the seasonal condo rental market. I have three units, all rented to race families. Not sure that is the target market for the hotel.



I agree.  

Welcome to the boards by the way.  If you don't mind me asking, are you worried about the mountain?  I ask because we have one real estate investor on here who has nothing bad to say ever about the mountain.


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree.
> 
> Welcome to the boards by the way.  If you don't mind me asking, are you worried about the mountain?  I ask because we have one real estate investor on here who has nothing bad to say ever about the mountain.



Very. One unit we bought in 1997, but the last two were purchased in 2012. Winter rentals have been stable but this past summer rentals were down substantially from 2013. I see very little evidence that current management cares at all about condo owners or their investments.


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## Cannonball (Jan 19, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Post 'em here!



No need, anyone can read them all https://www.facebook.com/BurkeMtn


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

ablb said:


> Very. One unit we bought in 1997, but the last two were purchased in 2012. Winter rentals have been stable but this past summer rentals were down substantially from 2013. I see very little evidence that current management cares at all about condo owners or their investments.



A friend of mine who rents condos on a nightly basis only had 50% occupancy for MLK weekend.  That was unheard of prior to this year.


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A friend of mine who rents condos on a nightly basis only had 50% occupancy for MLK weekend.  That was unheard of prior to this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



I did weekend rentals in one unit last year and was completely booked the entire season. Also know others who rent and were empty this weekend.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

ablb said:


> Very. One unit we bought in 1997, but the last two were purchased in 2012. Winter rentals have been stable but this past summer rentals were down substantially from 2013. I see very little evidence that current management cares at all about condo owners or their investments.



How interesting.   A certain person here, claiming to speak on behalf of people such as yourself, insists that condo owners are as happy as they ever have been.  Of course that person also claimed to be an "artist" who could "feel" that condo sales were up last year even though actual data showed that they were down by roughly 40%.   


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How interesting.   A certain person here, claiming to speak on behalf of people such as yourself, insists that condo owners are as happy as they ever have been.  Of course that person also claimed to be an "artist" who could "feel" that condo sales were up last year even though actual data showed that they were down by roughly 40%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



That's funny. I belong to three of the associations. You think Mountain Brook owners are happy?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

ablb said:


> That's funny. I belong to three of the associations. You think Mountain Brook owners are happy?



Do I?  No.


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## ablb (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Do I?  No.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



Bingo. Maybe I'm biased but the construction hasn't helped the rental market there. Most of those units are owner occupied though. Wintergreen is also mostly owner occupied. I would characterize it as a general unease among owners.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

A funny Facebook comment:


 It doesn't take a genius to see that when it comes to hospitality this mountain has a very low " i Q"........
Like · Reply · 6 mins



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## JoeB-Z (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A funny Facebook comment:
> 
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to see that when it comes to hospitality this mountain has a very low " i Q"........
> ...



Amen. The first rule in the hospitality industry is: be hospitable. The Ascutney family alienated everyone, spent money on the wrong things and went down the toilet. 

This thread should have an admission price by the way. 

I have two tickets for Burke from CSC and will get up there sometime this year. Let me see what I need to take into account: no wind, snow but not that day etc.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

JoeB-Z said:


> Amen. The first rule in the hospitality industry is: be hospitable. The Ascutney family alienated everyone, spent money on the wrong things and went down the toilet.
> 
> This thread should have an admission price by the way.
> 
> I have two tickets for Burke from CSC and will get up there sometime this year. Let me see what I need to take into account: no wind, snow but not that day etc.



+1 on the hospitality comment and (sad) comparison to Ascutney.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

There is an article in Tuesday's Caledonian Record about skier visits at Q Burke being up 10% compared to last year.  That could easily be explained by the MUCH better December we had compared to last year.  The article doesn't give any details other than the fact that visits are up overall.  Manager Todd Gagnon was quoted as saying; "[R]ight now Q Burke is in good shape with lots of skiers."  In other words, "everybody's happy".


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> And that is a good answer.  Fantastic.  A friend went up and over the mountain on a snowmobile ride and said it was heavy crap all the way up......



Weird, I didn't know there is a snowmobile trail that goes over Burke Mountain?
Mid-Lodge up to the CCC road was wet cement. CCC Road up to the Poma mid-Station was dense powder. Mid-station up was powder. Not super blower stuff but it felt really good to ski in. It was the perfect snow to get the mountain in prime shape. I skied Rerun and never hit a rock.













This thread has become ridiculous. The hate has started to feed on itself. To what end I don't know. The pitchforks are out and I can't be part of it. 
Burke has always had it's share of warts. Everyone expected the Q ownership to vanquish those warts. Well, there are still warts and it doesn't mean I love the mountain any less. I guess I'm just going to see how the long game plays out here but I'm done letting rumors and general grumpiness try to bring me down.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

If you can't see that this is bigger than Burke's usual warts, it's probably best to avoid this thread.  You should also avoid their Facebook page.  And don't read any letters to the editor in the Caledonian Record.  And don't talk to anyone in town or on the lift.  Follow those simple rules and you'll avoid disappointment.

You say you love the mountain, but you won't criticize someone who is harming it.  That's rather odd.


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## Cannonball (Jan 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Weird, I didn't know there is a snowmobile trail that goes over Burke Mountain?
> Mid-Lodge up to the CCC road was wet cement. CCC Road up to the Poma mid-Station was dense powder. Mid-station up was powder. Not super blower stuff but it felt really good to ski in. It was the perfect snow to get the mountain in prime shape. I skied Rerun and never hit a rock.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice shots.  Similar conditions at Cannon today.  Not blower, but not heavy either.  It was interesting that between 8am and 9am the conditions changed quickly.  Temps dropped a touch creating a thin crust and thickening the snow noticeably.  It still rode really well after the change (maybe slightly tougher for skiers than boarders).  Did you guys have that same change?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If you can't see that this is bigger than Burke's usual warts, it's probably best to avoid this thread.


You seem to have some sort of agenda to scream about the warts from the rooftops. Again, to what end I don't know . I feel that you are a big part of this hate feeding on itself. You nitpick everything and post every little piece of gossip until it seems like there is a raging inferno. 
For instance today with the MBX being down. 
Everyone is running around screaming about customer service. Well, back in the day the Willoughby quad would have issues that had an unknown time to fix it. There was no one in the lodge to explain every detail of what was going on. And there was never anyone there giving me a hot cocoa to make sure I was okay. 
Like I said, the hate feeding the hate is not helping anybody and if anything, is making things worse for everyone.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> You seem to have some sort of agenda to scream about the warts from the rooftops. Again, to what end I don't know . I feel that you are a big part of this hate feeding on itself. You nitpick everything and post every little piece of gossip until it seems like there is a raging inferno.
> For instance today with the MBX being down.
> Everyone is running around screaming about customer service. Well, back in the day the Willoughby quad would have issues that had an unknown time to fix it. There was no one in the lodge to explain every detail of what was going on. And there was never anyone there giving me a hot cocoa to make sure I was okay.
> Like I said, the hate feeding the hate is not helping anybody and if anything, is making things worse for everyone.



If it was just me you'd have a point.  Spend some time in the community and you'll see that it goes well beyond me.

But I don't blame you one bit for moving on if this thread upsets you.  The Internet is a big place so there's no point in hanging out in parts that are upsetting.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Nice shots.  Similar conditions at Cannon today.  Not blower, but not heavy either.  It was interesting that between 8am and 9am the conditions changed quickly.  Temps dropped a touch creating a thin crust and thickening the snow noticeably.  It still rode really well after the change (maybe slightly tougher for skiers than boarders).  Did you guys have that same change?



Any sudden temperature dip may have already passed by Burke before I got up the mtn.  I never found any crust on anything. It all skied really well.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If it was just me you'd have a point.  Spend some time in the community and you'll see that it goes well beyond me.



:roll: I live here and that is EXACTLY why I'm seeing the hate feeding on the hate. There are so many rumors and misinformation flying around that it getting everyone's panties in a bunch. 
Well pull out the wedgie and go skiing. Let Q make whatever decisions he's going to make because I don't think at this point he's going to please you no matter what. Are there things I disagree with, yes but I'm a big boy and don't need to start flinging poo about every decision that is made, maybe made, or rumored to be made.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

I thought you had left.  


.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2015)

<resisting urge to find a middle finger meme>


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2015)

That would be the first meme you resisted.  ;-)


.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2015)

FTN I think you have to admit that Burke is in much worse shape than before. The fact that management disdains their customer base adds insult to injury. We want the mountain to succeed and folks want to see a positive change. 


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 20, 2015)

Again none of us are privy to the details of the long game here. And my primary point is hate feeding hate.
Are there things that have happened at the mountain that I don't agree with or I find questionable, of course. But to continually beat the horse and pour gas on the situation isn't going to help anyone, especially the people that are working their tails off to keep the mountain operating. Because right now they are not feeling love from anybody.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2015)

I think if you hope to censor the Internet you are doomed to be constantly disappointed.  None of us approve of everything said here.  It's just that most of us are Zen about that reality.


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## River19 (Jan 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Weird, I didn't know there is a snowmobile trail that goes over Burke Mountain?
> Mid-Lodge up to the CCC road was wet cement. CCC Road up to the Poma mid-Station was dense powder. Mid-station up was powder. Not super blower stuff but it felt really good to ski in. It was the perfect snow to get the mountain in prime shape. I skied Rerun and never hit a rock.




Nice pictures, looks better than my office.

The old fire road VAST trail, bang a left off of that up an old ungroomed logging route, long track with two beagles to do some rabbit hunting on the back side of Burke since there was fresh snow/tracks.  You end up about the same elevation as midway between Mid Burke and the Summit, but on the backside.....said it was heavy and tacky and good hunting snow.......


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## rueler (Jan 20, 2015)

It was an interesting weekend up at Burke for sure. I had a great time regardless of some of the inconvenience that I wasn't all that surprised about. 

I agree that the icing issues could've been solved/avoided if the lift ran all night like some operations do. I am not all that bummed about that. At this point, I know that wouldn't happen. He's not going to pay a crew or A PERSON to keep that lift going overnight based on the other staff/cost cutting measures he's implemented. I also spoke to a patroller friend of ours in the lodge. She mentioned the power issues were causing the second set of problems to getting the MBX shuttling folks up the mountain. 

Regarding a Town Hall meeting: One of our friends we ski with put up a flyer he created on the bulletin board in Mid Burke regarding the Town Hall meeting coming soon and to keep yourselves posted, etc. The flyer was removed at some point this past week. I found it weird that a promised announcement of the meeting was slated for early LAST week. Here we are a week later with no announcement. One of our other friends who posts on the Facebook page once in awhile said that he had heard from an employee that the plan for the town hall meeting was February 7th. That's what he heard…that info has still not been released in any forms of communication by the mountain. 

As far as the lift being on hold. I hiked twice. I sandwiched a handful of runs down on the SBX in between the two hikes. First hike to the top of Little Dipper was nice. 2nd set of tracks on it and it skied fine. There was certainly a noticeable layer of slush underneath. Second hike was from the SBX up lower Willoughby to the fire road cut through over to Gap. Good untracked lines, even though a bit heavy. Once the lift got going for good, it ran unfettered the rest of the day…and it was a good day. Fortunately for those that stuck it out, many people took off and were not inclined to wait for something that they didn't think was going to happen. Unfortunately, these things stick with people that don't have passes and buy a full day ticket to ski a full day. Not a day filled with constant question marks as to the reliability of the product. I get the weather/ice delays and you can chalk up some bad luck with the power issues…at some point it's just not being prepared to run a ski business…people deal with bad luck all the time when they're prepared. That's a fact!


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## xwhaler (Jan 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> :roll: I live here and that is EXACTLY why I'm seeing the hate feeding on the hate. There are so many rumors and misinformation flying around that it getting everyone's panties in a bunch.
> Well pull out the wedgie and go skiing. Let Q make whatever decisions he's going to make because I don't think at this point he's going to please you no matter what. Are there things I disagree with, yes but I'm a big boy and don't need to start flinging poo about every decision that is made, maybe made, or rumored to be made.



+1


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## whiskey jack (Jan 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Poma (and Doppelmayr) recommend that HSQ's and other detachable chairs be operated continuously during icing events to prevent problems?  I.e. they run the lift overnight so that things don't freeze up?



I am no engineer, but I would think that even if it was running ice could build up on the rope and the grips and cause difficulties. I am sure in certain weather events it would be beneficial to run it. There was definitley alot of icing where I lice on Monday morning.


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## River19 (Jan 20, 2015)

In an effort avoid "feeding the hate", it looks like at least two other well known New England resorts had some MLK issues causing disappointment.

Skiers pay a lot of money and expect to be treated right.......I think that is the long and short of what I've learned here......


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## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2015)

Let me clarify a couple of things:

1) Use of the term "hate" was hyperbole.  
2) If that was my primary motivation, there is some information that I would have disclosed that I haven't.  There was a stretch where I got too personal when it comes to Ari, and I picked up on that fact and haven't gone in that direction since.  I've been careful to confine my criticism (what you call "hate") to operational matters since that time.
3) In order to try to silence my opinion as to operational matters, FTNEK stated that; (a) there are only a couple of people that are critical of how the mountain is being run, and (b) that the problems on the mountain have nothing at all to do with current management.  While many may not agree with my opinion at least I haven't made stuff up.  In that regard, I don't see how FTNEK has any claim to the high road here.
4) This isn't about pleasing myself.  Burke owes nothing to me, and I'm a big boy who can handle disappointment.  This is about an institution that among the most iconic institutions in the Northeast Kingdom.  Do I get overly passionate?  Of course I do.  I'm passionate about lots of things that define the Northeast Kingdom.  But it's never a self-centered issue.  
5) Is my approach the best?  Definitely not.  But is it better than just sticking your head in the sand and dreaming of unicorns and rainbows?  Definitely.
6) If a manager of a ski resort can't handle criticism, they have no business being the manager of a ski resort.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 20, 2015)

Vt if you didn't own a condo their would you still be posting all this stuff. I really sorry for Burke regular s on management but st least you can go to Jay and cannon in short amount of time.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2015)

I've been thinking a lot about where to get passes next year.  What I struggle with is that I feel like I am not doing my part to support Burke if I take my money elsewhere.  My criticism of the mountain isn't going to affect Burke.  I'm not conceited enough to believe that it ever would.  But my not purchasing a family's set of season passes will - even if just slightly.


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## River19 (Jan 20, 2015)

ablb said:


> Very. One unit we bought in 1997, but the last two were purchased in 2012. Winter rentals have been stable but this past summer rentals were down substantially from 2013. I see very little evidence that current management cares at all about condo owners or their investments.





ablb said:


> I did weekend rentals in one unit last year and was completely booked the entire season. Also know others who rent and were empty this weekend.





ablb said:


> That's funny. I belong to three of the associations. You think Mountain Brook owners are happy?



In between the "haters going to hate" discussion/pissing match, these insightful thoughts were provided, along with a myriad of upset/disappointed posters on FB (who all can't be VTK.....or can they? lol).

Again, it wouldn't be hard for Jr et al to add some positivity to this thread.  Sure we are highlighting the endless pile of blunders and rookie mistakes as it is confirmation that after 1.5 seasons of running a ski mountain this body of work appears to clearly suggest the wrong dude is calling the shots.  In fairness, if/when he/they remove their heads from their rectums regarding operations and community relations, I will be the first to run through this thread with positivity.


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## ablb (Jan 20, 2015)

River19 said:


> In between the "haters going to hate" discussion/pissing match, these insightful thoughts were provided, along with a myriad of upset/disappointed posters on FB (who all can't be VTK.....or can they? lol).
> 
> Again, it wouldn't be hard for Jr et al to add some positivity to this thread.  Sure we are highlighting the endless pile of blunders and rookie mistakes as it is confirmation that after 1.5 seasons of running a ski mountain this body of work appears to clearly suggest the wrong dude is calling the shots.  In fairness, if/when he/they remove their heads from their rectums regarding operations and community relations, I will be the first to run through this thread with positivity.



I'm a real person who lives and works here. I'm also a Burke loyalist who has skied here for 20 years. I have no plans to buy passes elsewhere since that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.


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## River19 (Jan 20, 2015)

ablb said:


> I'm a real person who lives and works here. I'm also a Burke loyalist who has skied here for 20 years. I have no plans to buy passes elsewhere since that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.



Completely understood.......and I think everyone understands where you are coming from.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2015)

Honestly I think there has been a lot of substantive discussion in this long thread.  And, as to be expected, a lot of vented frustration in between.  It is what it is.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2015)

A friend of mine skied today and said that the mountain held up very well.  I was worried about a freeze up, but it looks like Burke avoided the rain.  Good news for sure.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 20, 2015)

From Saturday. If you look close you can see the tram between the summit and the tower.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> *If you look close you can see the tram between the summit and the tower.*



I see it.

  It's just above and to the right of the increasing public debt.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 21, 2015)

Update...




> [h=1]Important Update to Our Season Passholders[/h]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 21, 2015)




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## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2015)

What is a QB season pass holder?  Do you get a football and shoulder pads with purchase?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 21, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is a QB season pass holder?  Do you get a football and shoulder pads with purchase?



I did get a football but it was only inflated to 10psi


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## farlep99 (Jan 21, 2015)

Man this guy just doesn't get it.  Read that letter again.  Notice anything?  
_
We apologize_..
_We wanted to...
We can improve...

_You are the President/CEO/whatever.  Take some freaking ownership & responsibility!!!   What a management shitshow!!!  I've resisted piling on, but come on dude...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 21, 2015)

What does this actually mean?

Let us first start by saying we apologize for taking a bit longer to get this meeting together than we had anticipated; we should have been more attentive to hitting the date we had, ourselves, put out there.

The overall tone of the email is weird.  I think most people were hoping for something that said that they were going to share their plans to improve snow making moving forward.  There is no suggestion in the email that they have come up with any such plan.  Hopefully it's just not artfully worded.  Ary definitely is a fan of the run-on sentence.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 21, 2015)

What would you say is the easiest glade to ski at Burke?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What would you say is the easiest glade to ski at Burke?



Other than the Enchanted Forest?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Other than the Enchanted Forest?


Yes, on the upper mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Yes, on the upper mountain.



Marshland 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks!


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## Masskier (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Update...




*Important Update to Our Season Passholders*




Let  us first start by saying we apologize for taking a bit longer to get  this meeting together than we had anticipated; we should have been more  attentive to hitting the date we had, ourselves, put out there.

While our present conditions are fantastic, we wanted to get together as  a community and discuss our strategies relating to snowmaking, and  general operations, since the beginning of the season.  With conditions  being prime, it would be easy to shrug things off and say simply, "Let's  move Forward" but we owe the Burke community and QB Season Passholders,  more than that.

As ambassadors both on and off the mountain, we recognize the  frustration many of you expressed through multiple forums and channels,  and we'd like to create an opportunity to listen, learn, and, as well,  share our own thoughts.  We will be setting up a Town Hall Meeting on  Saturday February 7th from 5:30-7:30pm in our Kingdom Cafe.  This  meeting, un-ironically, coincides with our Season Passholder  Appreciation weekend across that same date.  

We will be offering a continental breakfast  at 9:30am on Saturday in the Tamarack with an apres-ski event in the  Bear Den Lounge beginning at 3pm featuring Switchback Ale.  On Sunday  we'll have our Bell-to-Bell race where teams of two can race to see how  many runs they can accomplish in a day.  Teams can register to enter  ($25.00 per team) with a pre-set course (3 trails), winners receive 2-  $25.00 Tamarack Gift Certificates.  Brunch in the Tamarack will be  available from 9:30-11am for Season Pass Holders and their Family, must  show pass to enter.

Again, while the most important part of the season is still in front of  us, it's important that we as a community look back to what worked and  what didn't, so we can improve the experience that's at the very center  of why all of us are here.

Thanks and we look forward to seeing you on the 7th.


Ary Quiros
President & CEO
Q Burke Mountain Resort



This will be a very informative meeting.  I  encourage everyone to attend.  You can hear first hand on what the snow  making plans are, the current status of the Hotel and other important  plans about Burke's future.  Hope to see you there.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> This will be a very informative meeting.  I  encourage everyone to attend.  You can hear first hand on what the snow  making plans are, the current status of the Hotel and other important  plans about Burke's future.  Hope to see you there.


Already posted.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> *Important Update to Our Season Passholders*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The snowmaking plans for February 7th will be zero.  The season is already over for snowmaking.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

And as to the meeting, if they are looking for ideas and solutions, there is one that fits the bill, so it will be a short meeting.  That idea is to replace this guy:






That's all.

And as to "our strategies regarding snowmaking", really it comes down to Burke making snow in the first place and having the infrastructure to make it.  I think that would be a no-brainer.


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## Masskier (Jan 22, 2015)

I know.  That's why I added my comments to it.   I'm hoping for a large turnout.  So people can hear first hand of the current status and future plans.  That way they don't have to rely on all of the worthless rumors that you spread.


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## whiskey jack (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I know.  That's why I added my comments to it.   I'm hoping for a large turnout.  So people can hear first hand of the current status and future plans.  That way they don't have to rely on all of the worthless rumors that you spread.



Well Put.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I know.  That's why I added my comments to it.   I'm hoping for a large turnout.  So people can hear first hand of the current status and future plans.  That way they don't have to rely on all of the worthless rumors that you spread.


Was it really necessary to make this personal?  This meeting is about Burke.  No need to drag your personal vendettas into the discussion about the meeting.  I'm at least not a hypocrite who goes around bad mouthing Ary privately to mutual acquaintances that we have but then says something completely different in this forum. 

Also, please tell me what I have said about Burke's snow making that was not true.  Seriously.  Tell me.  Hint: You can't.

As for the meeting itself:
Unless there is a specific plan to increase snow making capacity that is going to be implemented in time for the 2015/2016 season, nobody is going to leave content.  Let's see if there is an announcement made at the meeting in that regard.


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## Cannonball (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> From Saturday. If you look close you can see the tram between the summit and the tower.



Is this pic taken from the same vantage point as the one you posted of Cannon from the same day?  If so, it's pretty sweet to have almost identical perspectives of the 2 New England trams from one location.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I know.  That's why I added my comments to it.   I'm hoping for a large turnout.  So people can hear first hand of the current status and future plans.  That way they don't have to rely on all of the worthless rumors that you spread.



Well, to be fair you certainly have your own spin on things as well.


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## xwhaler (Jan 22, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Well Put.


+2   Folks wanted a meeting and you got your meeting. Now go listen and keep an open mind---hear it from the source himself and then come back and give us the real details.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> +2   Folks wanted a meeting and you got your meeting. Now go listen and keep an open mind---hear it from the source himself and then come back and give us the real details.



I'm very interested to hear how things go.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, to be fair you certainly have your own spin on things as well.


He's actually got two different spins.  One he tells privately and one he tells here.  But to suggest that, of the two of us, I'm the only one who has a "spin" on things at Burke is patently absurd.  Isn't there a saying about throwing stones in glass houses?

And if you want to talk about unfounded rumors, who was the "artist" who claimed that condo sales were up when in reality they were down about 40%?  Hmm...

I think it's best to stick to the issues, which is exactly what I had done before Masskier's ad hominem strike.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Things I would like to hear answered at the meeting:
1) What are the specific plans for increasing snow making capacity prior to next season?
2) If there is no such plan, will season pass prices remain the same?
3) Why did the hotel appear to go from ahead of schedule to behind schedule?
4) Is the funding complete for the hotel?  If not, what mechanisms are in place to obtain full funding?
5) Are there any plans to install a lift and/or expand in the East Bowl area?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> And if you want to talk about unfounded rumors, who was the "artist" who* claimed that condo sales were up when in reality they were down* about 40%?  Hmm...



If I owned a condo at that place, I'd be like this trying to get rid of it.   Hopefully I'll be wrong, but I just dont see all this ending well.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm thinking a plan to do anything much less than what Wildcat accomplished last summer, won't win much approval. Any lack of activity in this direction once good ground conditions allow, will just spell a repeat next winter.

I'd also be asking questions about the lower mountain lighting project. I think it's a great idea to light up Dashney and Carter Country, but there should be another route down from the lift that isn't park oriented. Just common sense to build the project so that you can get from the top terminal, to the hotel, and down to the lower terminal, so I guess that means High Meadows Pass as well.

It's a no brainer to support BMA. To try to get out of any agreement to get the snow making done by a certain date is just going to anger current and future passholders and condo owners. The earlier and more consistently  training/comp slopes are ready, the more Hotel rooms are going to stay filled. Seems like a no-brainier. 

I seriously hope the new mid-lodge is going to have the cafeteria open mid-week next winter. If not why the heck is it getting built in the first place??

Serious consideration needs to be given to running the summit lift at night or having the ops crew in there MUCH earlier during/post storms, a little will go a LOOOOOOOOOOONG ways to creating a powder-day reputation that a mountain with only 2 aerial lifts to maintain should have!

We could go on forever, but the reality is...

One aww shit, takes away Five Attaboys!


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## faQ (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Things I would like to hear answered at the meeting:
> 1) What are the specific plans for increasing snow making capacity prior to next season?
> 2) If there is no such plan, will season pass prices remain the same?
> 3) Why did the hotel appear to go from ahead of schedule to behind schedule?
> ...



Is anyone going to take what is said at this meeting as anything more than words and BS?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 22, 2015)

faQ said:


> Is anyone going to take what is said at this meeting as anything more than words and BS?



He can promise whatever he wants, but if no action is seen by mid-summer, I wouldn't count on many pass sales for next year. As far as spring sales for next year?? Ha! I think the old "fool me once" rule is about to burn him.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Things I would like to hear answered at the meeting:
> 1) What are the specific plans for increasing snow making capacity prior to next season?
> 2) If there is no such plan, will season pass prices remain the same?
> 3) Why did the hotel appear to go from ahead of schedule to behind schedule?
> ...



1-2) The snowmaking plans for the future are obviously what got this whole thing started and I think everyone wants to know what is going on. So I really hope the first two questions are answered.

3) I still haven't heard from any source other than you that the hotel is behind schedule. You are basing you extrapolations on a document you found on the internet. There a very likely more recent documents that weren't published that outline the actual schedule. But I suppose you are free to ask about it.

4) My guess is that financial details aren't going to be discussed and honestly I wouldn't expect them to be. Do you publicly give out details of the financial health of your company (assuming you own one)?

5) One thing at a time! Over-under on Burke's East Bowl vs Jay's West Bowl expansions happening first 


I do hope that there is some honest discussion of why there are all of these rumors flying around and what is going on to dispel the rumors and mend fences with a community that has become increasingly upset.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 22, 2015)

Claiming the skiing is great now is fine, but one snowstorm did not create much base. On the next thaw, the lack of snow-making is once again going to be very apparent.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Is this pic taken from the same vantage point as the one you posted of Cannon from the same day?  If so, it's pretty sweet to have almost identical perspectives of the 2 New England trams from one location.



The Cannon pic was taken from the Fire Tower. The Jay pic from the unload area of the MBX. Unfortunately, the TV tower gets in the way of the view of Jay from the Fire Tower.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I do hope that there is some honest discussion of why there are all of these rumors flying around and what is going on to dispel the rumors and mend fences with a community that has become increasingly upset.


+1


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Cannon pic was taken from the Fire Tower. The Jay pic from the unload area of the MBX. Unfortunately, the TV tower gets in the way of the view of Jay from the Fire Tower.




I wish the windmills weren't in the foreground, but that's definitely a subjective thing.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 3) I still haven't heard from any source other than you that the hotel is behind schedule. You are basing you extrapolations on a document you found on the internet. There a very likely more recent documents that weren't published that outline the actual schedule. But I suppose you are free to ask about it.
> 
> 4) My guess is that financial details aren't going to be discussed and honestly I wouldn't expect them to be. Do you publicly give out details of the financial health of your company (assuming you own one)?


Somebody posted here that a worker on the project said that they were two months behind.  I have no idea if that is true or not.  But it was posted.

For an EB-5 project, things are different.  This is not an entirely private endeavor.  I won't go into too much detail, but I know people who have obtained that information already.  I haven't posted any details about it here because I'm not the person who requested and obtained the information so it really isn't mine to use.

The only official statement that I am aware of was Stenger's statement to WCAX in April, 2014 that Burke was 25% funded.  If there has been something since then, I just haven't seen it.  If not, a reasonable person would question why they have never trumpeted the fact that it's been fully funded.


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## faQ (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Somebody posted here that a worker on the project said that they were two months behind.  I have no idea if that is true or not.  But it was posted.
> 
> For an EB-5 project, things are different.  This is not an entirely private endeavor.  I won't go into too much detail, but I know people who have obtained that information already.  I haven't posted any details about it here because I'm not the person who requested and obtained the information so it really isn't mine to use.
> 
> The only official statement that I am aware of was Stenger's statement to WCAX in April, 2014 that Burke was 25% funded.  If there has been something since then, I just haven't seen it.  If not, a reasonable person would question why they have never trumpeted the fact that it's been fully funded.



I am wondering why is this important?  They started building it and they are out there everyday, still working on it.


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## River19 (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 1-2) The snowmaking plans for the future are obviously what got this whole thing started and I think everyone wants to know what is going on. So I really hope the first two questions are answered.
> 
> 3) I still haven't heard from any source other than you that the hotel is behind schedule. You are basing you extrapolations on a document you found on the internet. There a very likely more recent documents that weren't published that outline the actual schedule. But I suppose you are free to ask about it.
> 
> ...



ANCBio..... between those three and you have Vegas odds


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

faQ said:


> I am wondering why is this important?  They started building it and they are out there everyday, still working on it.








[/URL][/img]


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

You need to change your username to MEME-man.  ;-)


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

faQ said:


> I am wondering why is this important?  They started building it and they are out there everyday, still working on it.



It's important because it is a vital component to the success or lack thereof of the ski area.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## faQ (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's important because it is a vital component to the success or lack thereof of the ski area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



So, your afraid it won't get finished and there will be an incomplete hotel?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Was it really necessary to make this personal?  This meeting is about Burke.  No need to drag your personal vendettas into the discussion about the meeting.  I'm at least not a hypocrite who goes around bad mouthing Ary privately to mutual acquaintances that we have but then says something completely different in this forum.
> 
> Also, please tell me what I have said about Burke's snow making that was not true.  Seriously.  Tell me.  Hint: You can't.
> 
> ...



No not personal just the facts. You spread more rumors about Burke than anybody else.  it,s a waste of time responding to your sh!t. So you know someone who knows someone who knows me. PLEASE.  Is this really necessary?  It's not in me to go around bad mouthing anyone nor spread untrue rumors. Does that mean that I agree with all of the decisions that are being made by current management. Of course not. I just choose to respond in a more positive effective way. 
Do you really want me to list all of garbage that you said that is untrue?  And by the way, last weekend we had our winter board meetings at the academy. And no one appreciated your comment about BMA. Not even your brothers.  And speaking for all of the hard working men and women at Burke. Please buy next year season pass some place else.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No not personal just the facts. You spread more rumors about Burke than anybody else.  it,s a waste of time responding to your sh!t. So you know someone who knows someone who knows me. PLEASE.  Is this really necessary?  It's not in me to go around bad mouthing anyone nor spread untrue rumors. Does that mean that I agree with all of the decisions that are being made by current management. Of course not. I just choose to respond in a more positive effective way.
> Do you really want me to list all of garbage that you said that is untrue?  And by the way, last weekend we had our winter board meetings at the academy. And no one appreciated your comment about BMA. Not even your brothers.  And speaking for all of the hard working men and women at Burke. Please buy next year season pass some place else.



I've said before that anyone who believes my opining is more foolish than me.  You keep acting as if I have suggested otherwise.  You aren't entitled to misrepresent what I've said to make your point.  But on the other hand you have no point unless you misrepresent what I've said.  In any event, of the two of us I'm not the one who has misrepresented data.  And yet I'm the only one who has actually advised people not to believe me.  Keep that in mind as you continue to call the kettle black.

As for BMA, I reported what others are saying and said that I did not believe them.  So are you saying that the board did not appreciate my defending BMA?  Duly noted.  I thought they'd be thankful to know about an issue that is out there.  Apparently the reporter is seen as the problem rather than the source.  If so, you have to question the collective wisdom of BMA's board.

Regarding snow making, however, I have asked you to tell me if I said anything that was not true.   You haven't, because you can't.  Since the meeting is primarily about snowmaking, unless you can point out an inaccuracy, you ought not to pretend as if there is one.

You keep trying to make this a personal issue.  Maybe for you it is.  But if that's the case, we can discuss those issues via PM.  That's where such a discussion belongs.  Feel free to PM me at your convenience.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No not personal just the facts. You spread more rumors about Burke than anybody else.  it,s a waste of time responding to your sh!t. So you know someone who knows someone who knows me. PLEASE.  Is this really necessary?  It's not in me to go around bad mouthing anyone nor spread untrue rumors. Does that mean that I agree with all of the decisions that are being made by current management. Of course not. I just choose to respond in a more positive effective way.
> Do you really want me to list all of garbage that you said that is untrue?  And by the way, last weekend we had our winter board meetings at the academy. And no one appreciated your comment about BMA. Not even your brothers.  And speaking for all of the hard working men and women at Burke. Please buy next year season pass some place else.



I think discussing this over PM is appropriate.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

Is it time for the ski-off yet?


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## drjeff (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Is it time for the ski-off yet?



This is getting to be more like a mid-August rant!! We need snow!!


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## River19 (Jan 22, 2015)

I like to believe I'm a relatively fair man and actions speak much louder than words; so while I will be interested in what is said at the meeting.  We can all SAY anything.  Let's see if anything goes into action over the summer and in prep for next year.  Let's see how they finish this ski season as well....

Regarding questions.  One thing I wonder about, is any cost overruns on the EB-5 funded projects.  Not many constructions projects stay on budget, especially with poor weather conditions to boot......so my question, which will be answered over time, is....if/when there are overruns as they near completion in Q3/Q4 of 2015, will any snow making investments be impacted by the need to funnel funds into the final phase of the hotel or mid burke etc.  I'm not an expert on EB-5 projects so I'm not sure how overruns are handled.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

drjeff said:


> This is getting to be more like a mid-August rant!! We need snow!!



The crazy part is Burke just got enough snow to be 100% open (two trails are closed for extra snowmaking).


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## River19 (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Is it time for the ski-off yet?



"Go that way really fast, if something gets in your way........turn."


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## Cannonball (Jan 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> 5) Are there any plans to install a lift and/or expand in the East Bowl area?



Please report back on this one!  A lift there would be a travesty.  It is such a PIA coming in and out of there....and that's what makes it great!  Those lines are stay so sweet all day.  With a lift they'll be toast before lunch.  (See Mittersill lift)


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## oldtimer (Jan 22, 2015)

*Snow Making*

Any sign of snow making on Little Dipper?  I recall there being a line of brand new guns on skiers' left?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Is it time for the ski-off yet?



I'd lose.  


.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Any sign of snow making on Little Dipper?  I recall there being a line of brand new guns on skiers' left?


I didn't ski Big Dipper on Saturday or Monday so I don't have an answer.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Please report back on this one!  A lift there would be a travesty.  It is such a PIA coming in and out of there....and that's what makes it great!  Those lines are stay so sweet all day.  With a lift they'll be toast before lunch.  (See Mittersill lift)



There is a long discussion about East Bowl development in this thread starting around post#211 (almost 3000 posts ago seems like yesterday!).
I think a lift would be fine over there but it needs to be low capacity like Castlerock at Sugarbush.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is a long discussion about East Bowl development in this thread starting around post#211 (almost 3000 posts ago seems like yesterday!).
> I think a lift would be fine over there but it needs to be low capacity like Castlerock at Sugarbush.



Yes, the East Bowl has been on the drawing boards for what?  30 years or so now?  Those older maps from Kitchell's time are pretty interesting....there was a trail pod in the East Bowl, the meadow below the East Bowl, and the West Peak area.  The latter looked pretty tasty.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

Here is said map...although the Pinkham Development is not on this map:


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

Ummmmm Masskier, did you sell some property to QBurke? Google Earth overlay of night skiing proposal.


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## Cannonball (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is a long discussion about East Bowl development in this thread starting around post#211 (almost 3000 posts ago seems like yesterday!).
> I think a lift would be fine over there but it needs to be low capacity like Castlerock at Sugarbush.



I'm thinking more like the Stickney T-bar at BW.  Although T-bars carry 2x more people than ideal!


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## steamboat1 (Jan 22, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I'm thinking more like the Stickney T-bar at BW.  Although T-bars carry 2x more people than ideal!


Simple solution. A poma or J bar.


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## Cannonball (Jan 22, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Simple solution. A poma or J bar.



You are a genius!!! Why didn't I think of that when I said a T-bar carries 2x too many people.  THANKS!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

The shape of the terrain in the East Bowl would not be good for a surface lift.


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## Cannonball (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The shape of the terrain in the East Bowl would not be good for a surface lift.



For sure, it would be a challenging ride.  That would weed some people out too.  I'm liking it better all the time.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2015)

Single chair.  MRG won't be able to be so smug.  


.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The shape of the terrain in the East Bowl would not be good for a surface lift.


I guess you never rode the old summit poma at Pico. That went up some gnarly terrain. So did the old T-bar on little Pico for that matter.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I guess you never rode the old summit poma at Pico. That went up some gnarly terrain. So did the old T-bar on little Pico for that matter.



+ 1.  Those are some really gnarly liftlines.


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## Masskier (Jan 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Ummmmm Masskier, did you sell some property to QBurke? Google Earth overlay of night skiing proposal.



No,  But I'm thinking of setting up a toll booth.  lol


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I guess you never rode the old summit poma at Pico. That went up some gnarly terrain. So did the old T-bar on little Pico for that matter.



I'm not talking about steepness but rather a bowl shape. The "bowl" shape of east bowl funnels the ski lines of terrain to the middle of the bowl. Having a surface lift go up through there means there would be a lot of issues with downhill traffic forced to cross the lift line. I'd rather be able to easily ski across under an elevated chair rather than pick my way between poma or t-bar riders. Plus you get a gnarly lift line to ski with a lift!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No,  But I'm thinking of setting up a toll booth.  lol



And you wouldn't even have to get up from the couch! :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2015)

If any of you Burkies are around on Saturday, I'll be there.  Probably not rolling in until 10ish.


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## whiskey jack (Jan 23, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No not personal just the facts. You spread more rumors about Burke than anybody else.  it,s a waste of time responding to your sh!t. So you know someone who knows someone who knows me. PLEASE.  Is this really necessary?  It's not in me to go around bad mouthing anyone nor spread untrue rumors. Does that mean that I agree with all of the decisions that are being made by current management. Of course not. I just choose to respond in a more positive effective way.
> Do you really want me to list all of garbage that you said that is untrue?  And by the way, last weekend we had our winter board meetings at the academy. And no one appreciated your comment about BMA. Not even your brothers.  And speaking for all of the hard working men and women at Burke. Please buy next year season pass some place else.



Excellent


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## whiskey jack (Jan 23, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Any sign of snow making on Little Dipper?  I recall there being a line of brand new guns on skiers' left?



I think they made snow on lower dipper with those guns already.


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## xwhaler (Jan 23, 2015)

An East Bowl lift is sort of akin to the rumors of a False Peak lift at Saddleback that would make access to Casablanca/Muleskinner easier.
You would still deal with the run out at some point and it would put a lot more ppl in the woods which is no good.


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## oldtimer (Jan 23, 2015)

*Snow on Little Dipper*

They had not as of Monday and it appears they have not this week-  unless they did it w/o reporting.  Nor has it been groomed all week in the reports.  Thus the question.




whiskey jack said:


> I think they made snow on lower dipper with those guns already.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2015)

I see that Q Burke has been looking for an IT Manager for quite a while.  You would think that it would be a good position for a college graduate who wants to ski.  I hope they get someone soon because I've noticed a lot of issues with their website.  It usually involves conflicting information.  A couple of examples:
1) Remember all of the people that were pissed off that the Mid Burke Cafe was closed on MLK day?  The website says that it is open on "weekends and holidays".  But then the specific hours are given just for weekends.
2) I kept searching the trail map to find the location of The Gap trail.  For the life of me I couldn't find it.  It is listed as a black diamond trail, and I clicked on every black diamond I could find - repeatedly.  I finally went to a different website and pulled up an older trail map to find it.  I went back to Burke's website and realized that while it's listed as a black diamond, on the trail map it is now blue.
3) The mountain statistics change repeatedly depending on which page you are looking at.

These aren't a big deal, but there are enough of them at this point that it makes sense to get things cleaned up.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2015)

Those are marketing functions.  Most IT managers focus on networks; work PCs, Point of Sale systems, company email, etc.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that Q Burke has been looking for an IT Manager for quite a while.  You would think that it would be a good position for a college graduate who wants to ski.  I hope they get someone soon because I've noticed a lot of issues with their website.  It usually involves conflicting information.  A couple of examples:
> 1) Remember all of the people that were pissed off that the Mid Burke Cafe was closed on MLK day?  The website says that it is open on "weekends and holidays".  But then the specific hours are given just for weekends.
> 2) I kept searching the trail map to find the location of The Gap trail.  For the life of me I couldn't find it.  It is listed as a black diamond trail, and I clicked on every black diamond I could find - repeatedly.  I finally went to a different website and pulled up an older trail map to find it.  I went back to Burke's website and realized that while it's listed as a black diamond, on the trail map it is now blue.
> 3) The mountain statistics change repeatedly depending on which page you are looking at.
> ...



1. Burke doesn't treat MLK day as a holiday and doesn't charge holiday rates for the weekend/MLKday.
From the website: 
"Holiday Periods include December 26th, 2014 through January 3rd, 2015 and February 14th - 22nd, 2015."

2. Just an FYI that The Gap used to be a black diamond when it was a terrain park with huge jumps on it. That discrepancy should be cleaned up but it is hardly a major problem in my opinion.

And an IT manager isn't responsible for webpage content. AN IT manager would be responsible for maintaining and/or improving network infrastructure and reliability. There is likely a contracted website company that would have to be told to fix problems on the webpage.
Theoretically, an IT manager may have a webpage team (or person) under them that has the capability to modify the content on the webpage but it all depends on how the page is constructed in the first place.

<edit> What DHS said  >


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## Cannonball (Jan 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that Q Burke has been looking for an IT Manager for quite a while.  You would think that it would be a good position for a college graduate who wants to ski.  I hope they get someone soon because I've noticed a lot of issues with their website.  It usually involves conflicting information.  A couple of examples:
> 1) Remember all of the people that were pissed off that the Mid Burke Cafe was closed on MLK day?  The website says that it is open on "weekends and holidays".  But then the specific hours are given just for weekends.
> 2) I kept searching the trail map to find the location of The Gap trail.  For the life of me I couldn't find it.  It is listed as a black diamond trail, and I clicked on every black diamond I could find - repeatedly.  I finally went to a different website and pulled up an older trail map to find it.  I went back to Burke's website and realized that while it's listed as a black diamond, on the trail map it is now blue.
> 3) The mountain statistics change repeatedly depending on which page you are looking at.
> ...



You're thinking webmaster not IT manager.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Those are marketing functions.  Most IT managers focus on networks; work PCs, Point of Sale systems, company email, etc.


My bad.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Gap used to be a black diamond when it was a terrain park with huge jumps on it.


I figured that out when I found it on an old trail map.  The old trail map had it as a "snowboard park".


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2015)

Skiing is pretty darn good at Burke today.  Plenty of coverage, haven't experienced any real boiler plate, just a little scratchy in places.  100% open.  
Only one who could really complain is the ownership as per usual it's really quiet.  Maybe day trippers stayed South where it's snowing.


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## faQ (Jan 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Skiing is pretty darn good at Burke today.  Plenty of coverage, haven't experienced any real boiler plate, just a little scratchy in places.  100% open.
> Only one who could really complain is the ownership as per usual it's really quiet.  Maybe day trippers stayed South where it's snowing.



That's funny, I couldn't believe how busy it was.  Relativity.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2015)

Oh I'm not complaining one bit.  However I had a couple solo rides up the mid Burke around 2.  That's not a healthy business at a ski area on a mid-winter Saturday on a nice day like today.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 24, 2015)

The MBX was busier in the morning than in the PM.  There is a big race tomorrow which should help.  I don't have much of a frame of comparison, but I thought that it pretty busy by Burke standards.

I found that things got noticeably more slick later in the afternoon on the more popular trails.  Nothing that couldn't be dealt with. 

I spent today really exploring the mountain and figuring out how to get to the trails that I never seemed to be able to get to.  It was time well spent.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2015)

Bummer.  Would have been nice to make some turns.  It was in the morning.....didn't get on the hill until 1030 though.  Once the racers were do e there was a noticeable drop off in traffic.  Goes to show just how important BMA is to their business.   

From my perspective, to be economically viable the mountain needs to be at minimum twice as busy as it was today on most Saturdays of the season.


----------



## River19 (Jan 25, 2015)

Conditions were decent off the mounting as well for decent XC and snowshoe, went out at about 2:30 or so and from our vantage point, the upper slopes were relatively empty......saw a couple skiers.  I have noticed that Burke seems to empty out quickly after lunch or early afternoon, is that normal?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2015)

That's when all the racers left


----------



## River19 (Jan 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That's when all the racers left



I saw that about the racers yesterday, I see the same lack of afternoon activity each week, as we always seem to do an afternoon hike for a few miles.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2015)

Speaking of maps, I noticed that the stats on the site have been changed to read this:



> 267 SKIABLE ACRES (178+89 UNVERIFIED)



http://www.skiburke.com/the-mountain/winter/snow-report/

89 unverified?  :blink:  Where did they go?  I've never seen anything like that before.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Speaking of maps, I noticed that the stats on the site have been changed to read this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does that even mean????

Burke used the lower amount on Facebook a few weeks ago and it caused a lot of confusion.  They never explained why the started using that figure.  If this is their explanation, I'm not sure that it really explains anything.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What does that even mean????
> 
> Burke used the lower amount on Facebook a few weeks ago and it caused a lot of confusion.  They never explained why the started using that figure.  If this is their explanation, I'm not sure that it really explains anything.



If I had to guess, they are confusing trail acreage with boundary to boundary acreage.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 25, 2015)

Unverified?

This must be the acreage where the powder is covered by packed powder.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

They say that the hotel is going to have 116 rooms.  I wonder if all of those rooms are verified.  For that matter, I better check my quater-pound hamburger the next time I buy one in the cafeteria.  Some of those ounces may have been unverified.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

By the way, did anyone else notice that the Dos Equis Burkie adds were dropped like a hot potato?  I hope that they didn't spend to much on the designer for those ads.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2015)

Skiing is pretty darn nice now.  Not sure the point in ragging on how they market acreage.  The average skier would think nothing of it.  

I think bringing up snowmaking woes and things like "Q" being disrespectful to the mountain's history are worthy topics for the pass holder meeting, but these little website criticisms?  Kind of petty IMO.   Nobody cares


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

Nobody was criticizing it.   We're trying to figure out what it means.


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I better check my quater-pound hamburger the next time I buy one in the cafeteria.



The quater-pound hamburger must get you pretty high.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2015)

There are three posts poking fun at it.  It's a little odd, but it just appears you are hell bent on combing through their website looking for oddities and inconsistencies.  You just went through a bunch of other stuff with your IT manager post.  

Nobody cares about that stuff.  They care about quality of skiing, services and a perceived good value.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> There are three posts poking fun at it.  It's a little odd, but it just appears you are hell bent on combing through their website looking for oddities and inconsistencies.  You just went through a bunch of other stuff with your IT manager post.
> 
> Nobody cares about that stuff.  They care about quality of skiing, services and a perceived good value.



You're confused.  I'm not the one who brought it up.   And nobody was critical of anyone.   You're trying to make something out of nothing.


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----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2015)

My bad it was trailboss who discovered the unverified comment.  But you were quick to make a joke about unverified hotel rooms.  And yes you did just the other day point out a bunch of website stuff.

Just seems like one negative thing after another and right now things are good there.  Enjoy it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My bad it was trailboss who discovered the unverified comment.  But you were quick to make a joke about unverified hotel rooms.  And yes you did just the other day point out a bunch of website stuff.
> 
> Just seems like one negative thing after another and right now things are good there.  Enjoy it.



I'd understand your point if it became an Ary thing or a negative thing.  But it never did.  People were curious and light hearted about it.  It wasn't a big deal and nobody was negative.  Quite the opposite.  At some point you just gotta let talk be talk.

Moving on, I'm still genuinely curious as to what it means.


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----------



## River19 (Jan 25, 2015)

I heard all the snow guns were supposed to be pressurized to between 12.5 and 13.5 psi.........11 of the 12 guns tested were below 12.5 psi......

Discuss......


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 25, 2015)

I made my first visit to Burke in 25 years today. It is really a great mountain with plenty of unique terrain. I don't get the haters


----------



## River19 (Jan 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I made my first visit to Burke in 25 years today. It is really a great mountain with plenty of unique terrain. I don't get the haters



Glad you enjoyed it.

For clarification, I don't know of any haters per se.......quite the opposite.  The people most critical of Q seem to love the mountain, have been there for years and are invested financially, emotionally or both.  I believe most people, myself included who are critical in this thread have disagreed with several or many decisions by the new ownership group.  IMHO, their overall plan could be successful however how they have treated the customer base in the meantime is questionable at best.  Let alone how they treated the two best things that make that mountain attractive, KT and BMA......

Time will tell, but we sure do hope there is a positive ending.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2015)

River19 said:


> Glad you enjoyed it.
> 
> For clarification, I don't know of any haters per se.......quite the opposite.  The people most critical of Q seem to love the mountain, have been there for years and are invested financially, emotionally or both.  I believe most people, myself included who are critical in this thread have disagreed with several or many decisions by the new ownership group.  IMHO, their overall plan could be successful however how they have treated the customer base in the meantime is questionable at best.  Let alone how they treated the two best things that make that mountain attractive, KT and BMA......
> 
> Time will tell, but we sure do hope there is a positive ending.....



Exactly.  Nobody is a hater of the mountain at all.  My home mountain is Burke; it's just that folks don't like the (hostile) management that we now have.


----------



## Masskier (Jan 25, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> I made my first visit to Burke in 25 years today. It is really a great mountain with plenty of unique terrain. I don't get the haters



Welcome back to Burke


----------



## whiskey jack (Jan 26, 2015)

River19 said:


> Glad you enjoyed it.
> 
> For clarification, I don't know of any haters per se.......quite the opposite.  The people most critical of Q seem to love the mountain, have been there for years and are invested financially, emotionally or both.  I believe most people, myself included who are critical in this thread have disagreed with several or many decisions by the new ownership group.  IMHO, their overall plan could be successful however how they have treated the customer base in the meantime is questionable at best.  Let alone how they treated the two best things that make that mountain attractive, KT and BMA......
> 
> Time will tell, but we sure do hope there is a positive ending.....



I know the KT saga is well known, but what is the problem with QBurke and BMA?


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 26, 2015)

River19 said:


> Glad you enjoyed it.
> 
> For clarification, I don't know of any haters per se.......quite the opposite.  The people most critical of Q seem to love the mountain, have been there for years and are invested financially, emotionally or both.  I believe most people, myself included who are critical in this thread have disagreed with several or many decisions by the new ownership group.  IMHO, their overall plan could be successful however how they have treated the customer base in the meantime is questionable at best.  Let alone how they treated the two best things that make that mountain attractive, KT and BMA......
> 
> Time will tell, but we sure do hope there is a positive ending.....



What is KT and BMA?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2015)

Kingdom trails and Burke Mountain Academy


----------



## River19 (Jan 26, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> What is KT and BMA?



KT = Kingdom Trails
BMA - Burke Mountain Academy 

WJ - Only heard grumblings and I'm not going to start more internet rumors.  Before the server meltdown, did you happen catch the first person account of Jr.s convo with a season pass holder and his position regarding the BMA agreement?  Or his attitude towards KT (still). That would basically be the same rumbling I heard as well.  

Time will tell, just because Jr says one thing off the cuff doesn't mean he will act or follow through on anything.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2015)

River19 said:


> KT = Kingdom Trails
> BMA - Burke Mountain Academy
> 
> WJ - Only heard grumblings and I'm not going to start more internet rumors.  Before the server meltdown, did you happen catch the first person account of Jr.s convo with a season pass holder and his position regarding the BMA agreement?  Or his attitude towards KT (still). That would basically be the same rumbling I heard as well.
> ...



But he's an idiot for saying it to paying customers.


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----------



## River19 (Jan 26, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> But he's an idiot for saying it to paying customers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Oh, no doubt.  Sums up the mature approach to managing a business in a little nutshell.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2015)

I'll be very blunt.  There are two types of people in this thread.  Those who are honest about their concerns with management and those who aren't honest about their concerns.  Generally, the "everybody's happy" camp has a self interest at work.


The amount, and level of detail, of concern may differ.  But we've moved WELL beyond the point where anyone can legitimately contend that there aren't any grounds to be concerned.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2015)

More than two types.  I get all of the concerns.  Hell I felt similar about Wildcat last year, commented publicly and privately about it and spoke with my wallet.  Happy they improved many of their issues and likely will be back in next year.

But I also see where fromthenek is coming from in that at some point negativity goes beyond being constructive or beneficial.  
By all means if there's an issue opening again for too much snow, let the management have it.  But pat the backs of the people working there for doing the best they can with the tools they have.

The pervasive negativity in this thread was not what I experienced on the hill Saturday at all.  Part of the reason I went was to see first hand what the mood was like.  Literally every single lift ride I took was with passholders and I prodded them about the snowmaking problems and 100% said it's an issue, worse this year than before, but still having a pretty good year given the weather.  

So I guess I reside in the middle.  I get massskiers financial interest and positive spin.  I get the other side to and the desire for better management.  

But remember.  We are not the normal public here on AZ.  The vast majority of people would read this thread and kind of laugh a little.  At the end of the day, it's just skiing and people have other options.  

Some in this thread need to voice their concerns at the meeting, then head elsewhere for a year and see if the improvements happen.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> But remember.  We are not the normal public here on AZ.  The vast majority of people would read this thread and kind of laugh a little.  At the end of the day, it's just skiing and people have other options.


+1


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 26, 2015)

While I wasn't able to get out during the day to join DHS at Burke, I was able to get out for a late afternoon "take the 2 yr old for naptime" drive. I took a few pictures along the way:


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2015)

Looks like Burke is in the 4-8" band.  Hopefully it will be closer to 8 inches.  

A buddy of mine skied today and reported that some of the trails could really stand for a re-fresh - so the timing of this storm is good.  Wilderness was really icy, for example.  The groomers were generally very firm (my friend said that you could definitely feel more chatter today), but still very skiable.  Some of the natural snow trails have held up much better than others, such as The Gap and Lower Doug's Drop.

Between this storm and a couple of inches on Friday, things are shaping up well for the coming weekend.  Let's just hope that temps are not too low.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2015)

Burke reported 8 inches.  The snow we got here was super-light.  They groomed a number of trails, although the snow report email didn't list them by name.  A look at the trail map shows that the groomed trails are the usual suspects.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 28, 2015)

The East Bowl area should be prime today with the wind likely blowing all the fluff in there last night.


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## rueler (Jan 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke reported 8 inches.  The snow we got here was super-light.  They groomed a number of trails, although the snow report email didn't list them by name.  A look at the trail map shows that the groomed trails are the usual suspects.



If you are on the ski report page on their website, scroll down to where it says open trails/map. Click on that link. On that page there will be a trail map with a list of every trail below it. On the trail list it will indicate if the trail is open, if snow is being made on it and also if it has been groomed.

Edit: Upon reading your post again, I noticed that you were probably on the page I told you to navigate to. You must have seen all the trails they groomed then. The way you wrote the post made me think that since they didn't list which trails were groomed that you didn't know how to navigate to the trail page where that info would be shown. Sorry about that.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 28, 2015)

After the base I skied on Saturday, it must be fantastic at Burke today.  Jealous of anyone who gets out there.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 28, 2015)

After watching the webcam for a couple minutes, it looks like there are more people working on the hotel than skiing. The powder should hang around a while .


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## Masskier (Jan 28, 2015)

Just came in from skiing all morning.  The conditions are epic.  light fluffy powder.  Didn't see anything groomed on the upper mountain.  some trails had sections that were wind blown. But the sheltered trails and in the trees were all fluff.  Still plenty of lines to be had.  More snow Tomorrow night and Friday.  Get it while you can.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2015)

Which part of the mountain held the snow the best?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Which part of the mountain held the snow the best?


Masskier?   Hello?

Saturday is looking pretty depressing.  A high that will struggle to get above zero with very high winds.  Grr...


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Saturday is looking pretty depressing.  A high that will struggle to get above zero with very high winds.  Grr...



Friday looks to be deteriorating too.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jan 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Friday looks to be deteriorating too.



Suck it up, people. It's northern new england in late january.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Suck it up, people. It's northern new england in late january.


You can have it.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 29, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Suck it up, people. It's northern new england in late january.



+1.    Single digits and windy is fine by me when just a couple weeks back we were getting rained on.  Kind of a cardinal rule when you are a skier; you're not allowed to bitch about the cold.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

Cold I don't mind.  High winds and cold I do mind.   


.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 29, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> +1.    Single digits and windy is fine by me when just a couple weeks back we were getting rained on.  Kind of a *cardinal rule when you are a skier; you're not allowed to bitch about the cold.*



When the ambient high is -1 and there's 35mph wind foretasted, isn't there some leeway?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> When the ambient high is -1 and there's 35mph wind foretasted, isn't there some leeway?


I've got enough other interests that there is no need to suffer through any single interest.  And under those conditions it crosses the line to where I am content to do something else.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

I was hoping to hit Burke today or tomorrow.  Since Masskier hasn't chimed in other than a very vague statement, can anyone say if the recent snow stayed on the trails, and where it has stayed the best?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> When the ambient high is -1 and there's 35mph wind foretasted, isn't there some leeway?



NO!!   Bad juju complaining about the cold in the wintertime.  That's just tempting Ma nature to throw a thaw our way.   

I'm fine skiing in temps below zero. I won't do it in crappy conditions, but if the snow is good I'm going.  It's not preferred, but if you have the right gear you can still ski in comfort  at those temps.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 29, 2015)

In my experience after winds like we had earlier this week, the snow gets loaded onto the east side of the mountain. Skiers right of Dippers.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

Cold I don't mind.  Wind And cold I do.   


.


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## rueler (Jan 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I was hoping to hit Burke today or tomorrow.  Since Masskier hasn't chimed in other than a very vague statement, can anyone say if the recent snow stayed on the trails, and where it has stayed the best?



I'm sure that it's good all over. I'd bet the east side is good like NEK said (Powderhorn, Lew's, the east side glades, Dipper Doodle, East Bowl). Looked like winds were out of the NW for a time. It'll blow any loose snow over there.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You can have it.



This pretty much sums up the general population's view of the forecast. And it makes sense, skiing cruisers in those conditions can be miserable (and dangerous). 

But, no wind in the woods!  Windy means powder in the woods.  Cold means powder stays fluffy.  Cold + windy means no crowds.  Sounds like perfect conditions!!


----------



## JDMRoma (Jan 29, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Suck it up, people. It's northern new england in late january.



Exactly! Suck it up Buttercup and get out there while the snow is good  !


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## dmw (Jan 29, 2015)

Is anyone braving said wind and cold at Burke this Saturday?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 29, 2015)

This is the NOAA data @ 3,400 feet for 01/31 in the Sterling/Mansfield area:



> Cloudy, then gradually becoming  mostly sunny and cold, with a high near 1. *Wind chill values as low as  -36. Windy,* *with a northwest wind 37 to 39 mph,* with *gusts as high as 60  mph.*



I guess I'm just not man enough.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

I got a couple of runs in today.  Conditions were excellent.   I'll sneak out tomorrow and pass on the weekend.   


.


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## Cannonball (Jan 29, 2015)

Which part of the mountain held the snow best?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 29, 2015)

Where was the powder blown to? 

Ha! Cannonball beat me to it!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 29, 2015)

East side held best, but it was all good.   


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## Masskier (Jan 29, 2015)

A lot more was groomed today.  all packed powder and powder.  still lines to be had in the woods.  more snow tonight and tomorrow. NWS is calling for 3-7,  This weekend will be cold, but worth it.  it's the best conditions in a long time.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 29, 2015)

dmw said:


> Is anyone braving said wind and cold at Burke this Saturday?



It's one of the options on the table.


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## ThinkSnow (Jan 30, 2015)

Not sure if this has been asked previously, but what does the "Q" in "Q Burke" stand for, and when did it first appear?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2015)

The Q is for the Quiros family that now owns it.  You know because that's what you do when you buy a historic ski area.  You name it after yourself.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 30, 2015)

Historic?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2015)

They've been in business for 59 years.  That's as long as most major ski resorts in the State.  It's a couple of years longer than Killington and Sugarbush.   Combine that and the history of Olympic skiers who trained there and I say yes, it's a historic ski area.  

If the Quiros started their own ski resort from scratch, I wouldn't have much of an issue with calling it "Q" Mountain Resort.   The fact that it's been Burke Mountain for 59 years is a little different though.  When Les Otten bought Sunday River, he didn't change the name to "O" Sunday River Resort.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 30, 2015)

Also throw in the fact that the town is named Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> They've been in business for 59 years.  That's as long as most major ski resorts in the State.  It's a couple of years longer than Killington and Sugarbush.   Combine that and the history of Olympic skiers who trained there and I say yes, it's a historic ski area.
> 
> If the Quiros started their own ski resort from scratch, I wouldn't have much of an issue with calling it "Q" Mountain Resort.   The fact that it's been Burke Mountain for 59 years is a little different though.  When Les Otten bought Sunday River, he didn't change the name to "O" Sunday River Resort.



Spot on. Fwiw people have been skiing at Burke since the 1930's.

And Q could have done a Les Otten and named the company after himself but kept the brand name (LBO owned Sunday River)

Considering the changes that they've made and their tact with the locals, it would have been better not to attach their name to the place. 

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## trackbiker (Jan 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Also throw in the fact that the town is named Burke.



And the mountain itself. Although there is a rumor they tried to change that as well. :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2015)

trackbiker said:


> And the mountain itself. Although there is a rumor they tried to change that as well. :roll:



Q Jr. Did look into it. 


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 30, 2015)

Just a FYI. This thread is now over 1/4 million views.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And Q could have done a Les Otten and named the company after himself but kept the brand name (LBO owned Sunday River)
> 
> Considering the changes that they've made and their tact with the locals, it would have been better not to attach their name to the place.



As I pointed out.....probably 47 pages ago.....long thread.......the fact that they didnt change the website I think speaks to the fact that the Q-folk are backing away from the naming decision.  

Personally, I dont think it makes a hill-of-beans difference either way whether they go with the Q-name or the non Q-name, but if they were going to go through with it they would have done it soup-to-nuts and the first thing you'd change is the website address.  Given they never made it skiqburke.com or qburkemountainresort.com tells me that they're probably going to ditch the Q.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2015)

Disagree

I see / hear more "Q" all the time.   Any radio skiing reports?  It's called Q Burke.  TV?  Q Burke.  Internet sites other than their own?  Q Burke

http://www.onthesnow.com/vermont/skireport.html


Newspapers both print and online - Q Burke

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/other/skiconditions


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Disagree
> 
> I see / hear more "Q" all the time.   Any radio skiing reports?  It's called Q Burke.  TV?  Q Burke.  Internet sites other than their own?  Q Burke
> 
> ...



The sign at the main entrance still says Burke. The mid mountain lodge says Burke and even has an old logo


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## deadheadskier (Jan 30, 2015)

I hope I'm wrong and they back away from the Q, but it seems like every time someone opposes Arys ideas it just galvanizes him and he pushes forward harder.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 30, 2015)

The "Q" is built into the logo, so you might have missed a few.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I hope I'm wrong and they back away from the Q, but it seems like every time someone opposes Arys ideas it just galvanizes him and he pushes forward harder.



This is what I've been hearing and seeing


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 5, 2015)

So, this weekend is the big meeting?


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 5, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> So, this weekend is the big meeting?



Too bad I did not take the Judge pass this year.  I would definitely have attended the meeting, if only for it's expected entertainment value.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Too bad I did not take the Judge pass this year.  I would definitely have attended the meeting, if only for it's expected entertainment value.



The meeting is open to the public.


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## fbrissette (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The meeting is open to the public.



i was under the impression it was for pass-holders only.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

On February 3rd, the Caledonian Record ran an article about EB-5 projects.  The article focused on analysis that was presented to the House Commerce Committee by reports from the Agency of Commerce and Community Development and the Vermont Joint Fiscal Office at the request of the Legislature.

Some highlights:
- There has been a "slowdown" in NEK EB-5 projects.
- Ariel Quiros is planning a $10 million, non-EB-5 expansion and airplane assembly at Newport State Airport in Coventry.  (From what I can tell from media reports, the airport project was never intended to be an EB-5 project, but it was supposed to be a $20 million investment.)
- Many of the EB-5 projects were to be completed or underway this year, but that time frame slowed significantly with increased federal oversight of EB-5 projects and competition among developers for those dollars.
- Growth at Jay Peak Resort has added 1,500 jobs.
- Analysis shows that, despite these new jobs, the population of Orleans County is not growing.  
- Full build out of the new projects at Q Burke would generate about 40 percent of the impact of Jay Peak, with a greater impact on the local road system.
- Economist Tom Kavet, who regularly provides fiscal forecasts for the state, said that, "Given changing estimates of project magnitudes and likely delays in financing that may affect the remaining development projects, it is unlikely that significant public spending will be necessary to support the planned development,”


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> i was under the impression it was for pass-holders only.


No.  They posted on their Facebook page that the meeting is open to everyone.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> - Growth at Jay Peak Resort has added 1,500 jobs.




Riiiiiiight

I doubt even Killington employs 1500 people mid-season.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Riiiiiiight
> 
> I doubt even Killington employs 1500 people mid-season.


I suspect that the number includes ancillary job creation.  In other words, the added position at the Rent-to-Own store for the guy who rents big screen televisions to the people making minimum wage at Jay Peak.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> i was under the impression it was for pass-holders only.



Here is what they posted on their Facebook page:
Communication was sent directly via email to our Season Pass Holders but for those that haven't heard yet, we have officially announced our Q Burke Mountain Resort Town Hall meeting to be held on Saturday, February 7th from 5:30-7:30pm in the Kingdom Cafe. This meeting un-ironically coincides with our Season Pass Holder Appreciation weekend across that same date. Separate details will be announced directly to our SPH's concerning their appreciation weekend but in the interim, this town hall meeting is open to the public. Let's gather as a community to discuss our strategies relating to snowmaking, and general operations since the beginning of the season.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> - *Growth at Jay Peak Resort has added 1,500 jobs*.



BWAahahahahahahah!!!!    Oh...that's a GOOD one!



VTKilarney said:


> - Analysis shows that, *despite these new jobs, the population of Orleans County is not growing.*



LULZ.   I almost spit up my mountain dew.



VTKilarney said:


> - Economist Tom Kavet, who regularly provides fiscal forecasts for the state, said that, *"Given changing estimates of project magnitudes and likely delays in financing that may affect the remaining development projects, it is unlikely that significant public spending will be necessary to support the planned development,”*



*TRANSLATION: *Stuff wont be happening.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> *TRANSLATION: *Stuff wont be happening.


If that turns out to be the case I pity Newport, Vermont.  A huge section of their downtown is now rotting behind a chain link fence.


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## nelsapbm (Feb 5, 2015)

How did you guys miss this ? 
Aired yesterday on the 5:30 news slot.
http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=11102768&autostart=true


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## ablb (Feb 5, 2015)

Bill Stenger will be at the meeting Saturday


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

nelsapbm said:


> How did you guys miss this ?
> Aired yesterday on the 5:30 news slot.
> http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=11102768&autostart=true


Sweet!  The aquatic center is opening next year!

I found it odd that Ary said that they have about 100 construction workers on site when the NEK Economic Development Initiative reported in October that: "At present there are 100-200 employees on the job each day primarily doing concrete work. As the project goes forward, the number of workers on site will increase to approximately 400."


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *If that turns out to be the case* I pity Newport, Vermont.  A huge section of their downtown is now rotting behind a chain link fence.



Whether it's winds up being the case or not I do not know. 

But it is the only way to interpret the economist's impressive lingual gymnastics.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

Phase 1 = Hotel, Aquatic Center, Tennis Center
Phase 2 = ?

Guesses = 
Addition of day lodge/cafeteria at Mid-Burke to better support racers and non-hotel guests.
Parking structure at Mid-Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Sweet!  The aquatic center is opening next year!
> 
> I found it odd that Ary said that they have about 100 construction workers on site when the NEK Economic Development Initiative reported in October that: "At present there are 100-200 employees on the job each day primarily doing concrete work. As the project goes forward, the number of workers on site will increase to approximately 400."



Haven't seen and Act 250 stuff for it yet. Maybe that would have to come out very soon for it to start construction within the next year.

My guess is once the framing is done the number of workers will increase substantially. The interior finishing work takes more people than framing to get completed quickly.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Phase 1 = Hotel, Aquatic Center, Tennis Center
> Phase 2 = ?
> 
> Guesses =
> ...



You seriously think that there is a phase two?  Talk to me when the aquatic and tennis centers are done.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You seriously think that there is a phase two?  Talk to me when the aquatic and tennis centers are done.



Did I say anything about how confident I am that it will actually get built or when?
I'm sure the Quiros' have some plan in mind but they too are waiting to see how Phase 1 pans out. Phase 2 is likely very much a pie in the sky.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Did I say anything about how confident I am that it will actually get built or when?
> I'm sure the Quiros' have some plan in mind but they too are waiting to see how Phase 1 pans out. Phase 2 is likely very much a pie in the sky.


We're on the same page then.  I watched the video a second time.  Ary definitely confirmed that the aquatic and tennis center were part of phase 1 which would be built this year and next year.  So we are going swimming next year!  Anyone know a good place to order bathing suits?  It's nice to see that, according to Ary, Burke is seemingly immune to the delays to NEK EB-5 projects that the state report disclosed.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

The Tennis/Aquatic Center is the "Weather Proof" component the Quiroses need to make the entire plan work. 
It is the equivalent of Jay Peak's water park and ice arena. Do you think the hotels at Jay would be enjoying nearly the occupancy rates without the hockey tournaments and people coming with families for a weekend of waterparking (and maybe skiing or hiking depending on the season).
Maybe it gets scaled down from whatever the original plan was going to be, but I think something will get built one way or another.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Tennis/Aquatic Center is the "Weather Proof" component the Quiroses need to make the entire plan work.
> It is the equivalent of Jay Peak's water park and ice arena. Do you think the hotels at Jay would be enjoying nearly the occupancy rates without the hockey tournaments and people coming with families for a weekend of waterparking (and maybe skiing or hiking depending on the season).
> Maybe it gets scaled down from whatever the original plan was going to be, but I think something will get built one way or another.


I agree to a certain extent.  The one difference is that East Burke is busy in the summer thanks to Kingdom Trails.  Jay Peak would be completely dead in the summer without Jay Peak's investment in the golf course, hockey rink, water park, etc.  Q Burke is not entirely dependent on their own internal projects to drive summer business.  But... your point is well taken that they most likely would be unable to rely solely on Kingdom Trails.

I can't imagine that anything is going to be scaled down.  Ary gave no indication in the interview, and I am told that he should be believed and that I've been overly cynical in the past.  So that's what I'm doing - taking Ary for his word.  See you at the pool in 2016!  I'll even buy Masskier a round of drinks when we are celebrating the opening of the aquatic center next year.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

Concerning the Spates Block in Newport. A Act250 demolition permit request was filed at the end of January:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R1355/Supporting Materials/Supporting Materials.pdf


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree to a certain extent.  The one difference is that East Burke is busy in the summer thanks to Kingdom Trails.  Jay Peak would be completely dead in the summer without Jay Peak's investment in the golf course, hockey rink, water park, etc.  Q Burke is not entirely dependent on their own internal projects to drive summer business.  But... your point is well taken that they most likely would be unable to rely solely on Kingdom Trails.



Kingdom Trails is indeed a big draw, however I think Q also wants to pull in business during the shoulder seasons and when the weather doesn't cooperate for MTB. Again the Tennis/Aquatic Center is "Weather Proof" and can also be an attraction for family members that don't MTB. 

However, I don't see a lot of MTBrs headed to the tennis courts on a rainy day :razz:.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Concerning the Spates Block in Newport. A Act250 demolition permit request was filed at the end of January:
> 
> http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/planning/7R1355/Supporting Materials/Supporting Materials.pdf


There is some information about construction in the application.  Andy Stenger says this: "The start of construction isn’t known yet. Best case would see a start in the late summer/fall of 2015, but a 2016 start is also possible."


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Kingdom Trails is indeed a big draw, however I think Q also wants to pull in business during the shoulder seasons and when the weather doesn't cooperate for MTB. Again the Tennis/Aquatic Center is "Weather Proof". Although I don't see a lot of MTBrs headed to the tennis courts on a rainy day :razz:.


The shoulder seasons are definitely brutal, so whatever they can do to help during that time of year is very welcome.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> There is some information about construction in the application.  Andy Stenger says this: "The start of construction isn’t known yet. Best case would see a start in the late summer/fall of 2015, but a 2016 start is also possible."



Sounds like he is becoming more realistic on the pace that these projects are going to roll out.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm sure the Quiros' have some plan in mind but they too are waiting to see how Phase 1 pans out. *Phase 2 is likely very much a pie in the sky*.



My assumption is Phase 2 is, _"sell for a profit based on the upgrades & improvements paid for by free money"._


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sounds like he is becoming more realistic on the pace that these projects are going to roll out.


It's about time someone is!


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 5, 2015)

Is there something I am missing here ?  What is the big draw in a tennis/aquatic complex in East Burke?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2015)

I've seen more indoor tennis facilities close than open in recent years.  I love the game, but it is not a crowing sport in the Northeast.  Someone should remind the Qs that E. Burke is not a suburb of Miami.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I've seen more indoor tennis facilities close than open in recent years.



But did those facilities have any other attractions in the area? 
The key at Burke is that it would be a great place to have tennis camps, and possibly even tournaments. Camps for sure. There is a lot of other stuff to do in the downtime at a camp (e.g. MTB, skiing, hiking, swimming). Emphasis on skiing which is also a somewhat "upper class" sport along with competitive tennis. 
Maybe they even start to create their own market here. How many kids go off to soccer camps at far flung parts of New England in the summertime? I know my cousins from MA did.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2015)

I would think they'd have a hard time stealing business from places in the state that are well established such as Windridge


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

Let's be honest about this.  Tennis has waned significantly in popularity in the United States despite gaining in popularity internationally.  This is why you have once prestigious tournaments, such as the Farmer's Classic, moving from Los Angeles after 86 years to Bogota, Columbia.  There are now only about one-third of the top men's tennis tournaments held in the U.S. than there were in the 1980s.

There are a lot of reasons behind this, but one of the biggest reasons is that we don't have the dynamic American tennis stars that we used to.  This may change someday.  But it is far from certain that this will be enough to revive the sport.

Can Burke make a go of it?  Maybe.  But it is definitely a high-risk endeavor.  

Swimming is definitely popular.  The Vermont Swim Association's 2014 championship had 20 teams enter.  But... those 20 teams already have 20 pools, some of which are first-class facilities such as the Aquatic Center in White River Junction.  Another concern is that the teams are clustered in the southern half of the state and Chittenden County.  When Jay Peak built the hockey rink, it was the only rink in all of Orleans and Essex counties.  But Caledonia County already has pools at the St. Johnsbury Academy and Lyndon State College.  How much demand will there be for a third pool for competitive events?  Frankly, I think they would be much better off building a more recreational-orientated facility.  Make the Pump House the adrenaline attraction, and make Burke's pool a more laid back attraction.  Burke's pool could really compliment the hotel that way, especially since you can't actually swim at the Pump House.  A family friendly wave pool would be a really cool feature for Burke.

Now if Q Burke was really smart, they would build a facility for the number one growing sport in the United States: http://www.bradfordera.com/news/article_535c766e-a8cd-11e4-8eda-3f1e5e575554.html


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## ablb (Feb 5, 2015)

What happened to the indoor mountain biking park?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 5, 2015)

Yup.  Tennis used to be huge in the 80s.  As a kid my family would go to the Volvo tennis tournament every summer.  We saw it at Cranmore a few years, then Stratton and eventually at a big ass stadium in New Haven, CT.   

I don't know if a new American male stars will change much.   Roddick was the closest thing in recent years, but he only won one major, though he did make it to several finals and quarterfinals.  There's arguably the greatest collection of top players in the sport right now that there's ever been and few take notice.  Maybe they got board of Roger, Rafa and Novak winning everything for years.  Serena Williams is arguably the greatest female player ever and she's not drawing in new players from what I can tell compared to the young Euro stars.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2015)

ablb said:


> What happened to the indoor mountain biking park?



The one that was supposed to begin construction this past summer and be open in 2015?  You're supposed to forget that it ever existed.  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The meeting is open to the public.



Video please.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Sweet!  The aquatic center is opening next year!
> 
> I found it odd that Ary said that they have about 100 construction workers on site when the NEK Economic Development Initiative reported in October that: "At present there are 100-200 employees on the job each day primarily doing concrete work. As the project goes forward, the number of workers on site will increase to approximately 400."



Ary looked and sounded stoned.  I thought his comments about the "not so warm" welcome were funny.  His answer about KT relations was evasive at best....and it sounded like he is going it alone.  Phase II is private?  What does that mean?  I'm not sure that the staff are "teaching" him much because he doesn't listen.  And I like WCAX, but the interviewer was terrible.

Sorry, call me negative, but I did not get much from that interview.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2015)

As for amenities at Burke, a nice indoor water leisure pool (NOT an Olympic pool....look at LSC to see how busy that is) and an indoor bike park makes sense IMHO.


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## whiskey jack (Feb 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Sweet!  The aquatic center is opening next year!
> 
> I found it odd that Ary said that they have about 100 construction workers on site when the NEK Economic Development Initiative reported in October that: "At present there are 100-200 employees on the job each day primarily doing concrete work. As the project goes forward, the number of workers on site will increase to approximately 400."


I dont see anything real odd about there being around 100 jobs at this date which when he said it was February 4th 2015, and you are referring to an article from October. Time lines and work force change on construction sites on a daily basis.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 6, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> I dont see anything real odd about there being around 100 jobs at this date which when he said it was February 4th 2015, and you are referring to an article from October. Time lines and work force change on construction sites on a daily basis.


I guess I am not sure why there can't be interior work going on, especially in the west wing.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Video please.



+1

or at least an audio recording...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> +1
> 
> or at least an audio recording...



Audio would be nice 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Feb 6, 2015)

Based on the crowd I am most familiar with (MTBers), the bike park would get used if marketed correctly as part of the Q bike park pass.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 6, 2015)

I just heard an ad for Pico on the local Lyndon FM station.  Doesn't seem like money well spent to me.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I just heard an ad for Pico on the local Lyndon FM station.  Doesn't seem like money well spent to me.
> 
> 
> .



Good old Magic 97.7 I suppose.  They CLAIM to be able to reach WRJ, hence perhaps why Pico advertised with them.  I know that I could get 97.7 in parts of Washington and Orange county that are closer to Pico.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 7, 2015)

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=125244

*St. Johnsbury Woman Dies In Burke Mtn. Skiing Accident*


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 7, 2015)

Damn....not good


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## steamboat1 (Feb 7, 2015)

Why does it seem it's always someone so young. 27 years old is way to young.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2015)

So how did the meeting go?


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 7, 2015)

It doesn't start for another 45 minutes.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

T minus 15.  Agenda calls for 30 minutes of presentations followed by a Q&A session and then closing remarks by Ary.  

Stenger present.  No sign of Quiros Sr.  Stenger making rounds.  Ary in corner speaking only to staff.  


.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 7, 2015)

This is like the state of the union


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Turnout decent but not huge.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Ary still in corner with staff.  Last update until the end of the meeting.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Lots of last minute people.  Turnout is impressive.   


.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2015)

You recording?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Here we go!   


.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You recording?



Live stream!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=125244
> 
> *St. Johnsbury Woman Dies In Burke Mtn. Skiing Accident*





Horrible.  Prayers to this young woman's family, friends and the first responders


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

.


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## burski (Feb 7, 2015)

So is the meadow pumphouse between the river pumphouse and the pond or the booster pump house and the Summit? What the heck is a driveline anyway? Do they mean supply line? Who put this together anyway, a kindergarten class?  This is a presentation that is being made to the public?


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## River19 (Feb 7, 2015)

Looks like someone opened powerpoint or visio for the first time.......maybe they should have centered their items along "Drive Line" but why do that for a presentation to your main sources of revenue/customers......

I look forward to a rundown on the meeting


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Meeting just ended.   I'll do a writeup tonight if my memory allows.   


.


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## River19 (Feb 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Meeting just ended.   I'll do a writeup tonight if my memory allows.
> 
> 
> .



That's a long ass meeting.....in a couple words was it productive?  More BS? or a little of both?  Do you feel better about the next 24 months in Burke?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

River19 said:


> That's a long ass meeting.....in a couple words was it productive?  More BS? or a little of both?  Do you feel better about the next 24 months in Burke?



There was definitely some of both. It's really hard to sum up the meeting in one thought. But until I write something longer, I am comfortable saying that I think it was very good that they held the meeting in a lot of ways.


.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Starting a write up now.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

Here we go with a write up of the meeting.  A couple of caveats, though.  First, I went in with a piece of paper intending to take notes.  I didn't wind up using it so this is based on memory.  I was also in the back of the room, so there were a few times when I couldn't hear too well what a passholder was saying.  It is quite possible that my memory is not 100% accurate.  Second, I am going to insert my opinion here.  Opinion is not fact.  If anything appears to be remotely like opinion you should assume that it is.  I will try to make any editorial comments in brackets as I go along.  Third, this is going to be somewhat disjointed.  This is because the meeting itself was disjointed at times and because I am working from memory.  Generally, the order things are presented will be the order they happened - but this may not always be the case.

So here we go:

- Attendance was quite good.  The room was full.  Most people seemed to be condo or second-home owners.
- The overall tone of the meeting was quite respectful.  There was one unnecessarily confrontational person, and a woman who spoke WAY too much and babbled when she spoke (I'm looking at you Mrs. Physician).  But they were the outliers.   This is not to say that people weren't direct, or that they didn't challenge management.  They did.  But when they did nearly everyone did so in a very respectful manner.
- Five Burke reps sat at the front of the room.  1) Ary Jr.; 2) Jason Legebvre (mountain ops); Bill Stenger; Bill Kelly (generally for hotel matters); and the CFO (I think his name is George Gulisano if Linkedin is to be believed).  

Here are bullet points for what was said by the Burke people:

The meeting started with a moment of silence for the woman who lost her life at the resort on Friday as well as for someone else whose name I did not catch.  [This was a nice touch and it seemed sincere.]

Ary read from notes and said: (a) There are the same number of season passholders this year as last year; (b) Skier visits are up 18% this year; (c) The hotel will increase the overall quality of Burke's staff; (d) The website is being revamped in February.
- The final and biggest point Ary made is that there is a 2-3 year plan to upgrade the snowmaking system.  The plan is with SMI who did the snowmaking for the Sochi Olympics.  

Jason Lefebvre spoke next.  
- He described the current snowmaking system.  
- He said that they haven't been able to pump from the Passumpsic River for the past two weeks because of low flow levels.  
- The snowmaking pond is empty.
- Snowmaking is impacted by electric power limitations during peak use times, usually in the mornings and evenings.  This was especially true during the Christmas break.  
- They were a couple of days late opening up Lower Warren's Way.  It was supposed to be opened by the first Tuesday of December but was not open until the following Friday.

Next was Stenger.  His main points were:
- The key to snowmaking is the ability to recover from weather adversity.  
- The lack of December terrain was because Burke lacked compressed air capacity.
- The snowmaking upgrade project with SMI is still in the design phase.
- The hotel is opening on 12/11/15.
- Burke has between 1,400 and 1,500 season pass holders.  [Note: The CFO later claimed that the correct number is 2,400.]  This compares to Jay Peak's 4,400.
- Snowmaking has suffered this year because cold weather has reduced the flow of Passumpsic River.  Jay has had the exact same challenge because they draw from a stream.
- Jay can pump 2,000 gallons of water per minute.  Burke can pump about the same amount.
- The focus is going to be on increasing mid-week skier visits.
- No funds are being diverted form the mountain to build the hotel.
- *Burke will commit to opening on Thanksgiving weekend next year and will shoot for an Easter Weekend closing.*
- Enhancements to snowmaking will begin this summer.  Stenger was asked point blank what those enhancements will be.  He said that he could not say right now, but that this will be disclosed to passholders prior to the early bird deadline.

Next up was Bill Kelly.  He said the following:
- Bear Den will be open next year.  (Later in the meeting Ary said that it will be open for 2-3 more years.)
- Bear Den will be replicated in the next building that goes up.
- The hotel General Manager has already been hired.
- There will be a carpet lift to get skiers from the hotel up to the MBX lift.
- When the aquatic center and tennis center are built, they are considering the construction of a parking deck like they have at Jay Peak.

These next bullet points were said by one or more of the five Burke reps:
- There is a new marketing manager, "Jessica".
- Tower 13 on the MBX is the most prone to wind.
- Running the lifts at night to avoid icing doesn't always work.  [It sounded like they are not going to even try.]
- They are going to get crews in earlier when there is icing.
- They couldn't recruit enough ski instructors this year which has resulted in blackout periods.  
- *They plan to move the Willoughby chair to the East Bowl area.*
- To run more snow guns, Burke is going to have to negotiate with LED for more electrical power.  The hotel will increase their electricity needs as well.
- The CFO said that Burke gets about half the natural snow that Jay Peak gets.
- The tennis and aquatic centers will be built in the High Meadows area.  Ary said something about being where the "pole barn" is.
- There are big plans for the mountain bike operation.  New features, changing features, etc.
- With the tennis and aquatic centers, the original goal was to make Burke a destination for academic institutions for training.  (e.g., high school and college sports retreats.)  They have revamped this.  They are now trying to package Burke as an "Adventure Academic destination."
- An audience member asked why they were building out tennis in light of tennis being a dying sport in the United States.  Ary responded quickly and sharply that _tennis is a growing sport_.
- Jay Peak has 80 weddings a year and 40 hockey tournaments that last from 2-4 days each.
- Come spring there will be about 400 construction workers at the hotel.

So those were the facts that I could remember, as best as I could remember.  Here is my opinion regarding several things:

- Stenger is a VERY talented man.  I am always impressed to see him at work.  For as much as I am skeptical of the EB-5 situation, there can be no denying that he is one of the most talented people that I have ever come across.  He knows his industry, and he knows how to engage people.  He makes you want to follow him.  

- Bill Kelly was really good as well.  He is the kind of guy who likes to take charge, and he did it very effectively.  He worked the room really well.

- Jason Lefebvre did an excellent job.  He was clearly out of his element, which is not a knock on him.  He's supposed to be dealing with operations, not meeting with frustrated passholders.  And in that challenging environment he did as well as anyone could have expected.  

- Ary and the CFO were the least compelling.  While Ary clearly needed Stenger's talents at the meeting, Stenger's presence made Ary's shortcomings stand out.  As far as the CFO is concerned, the accountant isn't supposed to be the most dynamic guy in the room - so I don't find any fault in the fact that he wasn't.

- The General Manager sat in the corner and looked almost scared.  I'm not sure what his role is, but it sure isn't a public one.

- The strategy to explain away the snowmaking problems was disjointed.  On the one hand, they tried real hard to put the blame on the cold weather.  They kept insisting that the problem was that they couldn't draw enough water from the river.  _But this has only been the case for the last two weeks!_  The past two weeks haven't been the problem.  They did indicate that they are going to increase compressor capacity for next year - although it was only mentioned once in passing.  That was the ONLY detail that was ever slipped.  And even if they have an improved system, what good is it if they can't get the electricity they need from Lyndonville Electric?  If there is indeed a plan, it is clearly a work in progress and there was definitely some obfuscation as to the extent of the issue and the actual progress they have made.

- Ary completely blew it at the end of the meeting when he assertively said that tennis is a growing sport.  At best it shows that he is completely ignorant of the market, and at worst it was a patronizing untruth.  Either way, I personally have no faith in anything else he said at the meeting because of this comment.  The only explanation I can think of is that it is a growing market academically.  If that's the case, then I apologize to Ary.  But I'm skeptical that it is the case, or that it is what he meant.  The more important point is that I can't be the only one who picked up on the comment and walked away with the same feeling.  

- My distrust of Ary was cemented by another line he gave.  When assuring the crowd that the snowmaking will be improved next year, he stated that what has changed is that the hotel will bring in money that the resort will be able to use for snowmaking improvements and therefore they will be able to make improvements for next ski season.  [I paraphrased what he said, but the overall point is accurate to the best of my memory.]   This is complete bullshit if the hotel is not opening until December 11th!  

My final opinion was this: These guys are trying damn hard to make this work but Ary is no Stenger.  I just don't know if Ary has the capability to execute his vision.  I, frankly, now KNOW that I don't trust him based on the couple of comments that I just referred to.  But... my only real concern is that they get their snowmaking sorted out.  I am convinced that this will happen so long as they have the financial ability to make it happen.  My gut tells me that next year won't bring a major snowmaking improvement.  Reading between the lines, I think that their solution for next year is to blow early and often and to increase compressor capacity.  Will this help?  Yes.  Will it be enough?  Doubtful.  That's why it's a multi-year project.  I'm just recognizing that a multi-year project can't deliver all of the goods in the first year.

One big wildcard is that they are depending on hotel related revenues to pay for the snowmaking upgrades.  Which is the cart and which is the horse?  And snow aside, is the hotel going to be raking in money if there is not yet a tennis and aquatic center?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2015)

One other point that I just remembered.  Ary said that he will not run the Willoughby chair because of liability reasons, even though it is inspected.  He said that the concern is that liability is greatly enhanced if something bad happens with a lift that is only occasionally used.  So forget Willoughby being available as a back up for the MBX.


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## River19 (Feb 7, 2015)

Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

So a hotel that is going to open 12/11/15 is supposed to help fund snowmaking improvements that need to be in place prior to that?  Am I missing something here?  But also, without snow, who is in the hotel?

I am also skeptical that outside of maybe some academic competitions, tennis is pretty much a non-draw......maybe something nice to do when you run out of everything else to do, but who travels to play tennis?

Stenger has always been the visionary and true marketer and leader behind all this, which makes me really scratch my head as to why he is still backing Ary for that position.  Short of it being a blatant favor to Q Sr. it makes so little sense it is laughable.  He can barely run the Tamarack let alone a complicated hotel/resort.

What were some of the major concerns from the condo/passholders?

I'm concerned with his whole "us vs. them" mentality that seems to be aimed at both BMA and KT which again, makes so little sense as to be laughable.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2015)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/I...ata=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x4463c112fff71976


Stowe has since redone their courts, but it wasn't too long ago they looked like this google capture above.  I'm guessing that Google Maps capture is from two years ago.

I do believe there were a number of summers Stowe didn't offer tennis at all as people simply weren't interested.  I know I drove by a few summers ago and there were no nets up.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 7, 2015)

VTKilarney summarized the meeting quite well. 
The moment of silence was also for Ronnie Berlack. The former BMA skier turned US ski team member that was killed in an avalanche a couple months ago.

The physicain lady rambled a lot and kept coming back to the same topic as though she forgot the answer they had just given her. And she seemed willing to put wind turbines all over the mountain to generate electricity even though the CFO said the one that is there is barely worth it (estimated 50 years before it breaks even).

The snowmaking problems are: 
1. Air compressor capacity (plan to have extra portable capacity during the early season next year).  
2. Water pumping capacity to the top of the mountain. They actually can't pump enough water fast enough when ideal atmospheric conditions are present. 
3. Pond capacity. They weren't done making snow this year (still want more snow on Ledges and a few other places) but low water levels in the East Branch are preventing that. The cold that hit after the thaw, before we got a blanket of new snow, froze up all of the small streams that feed the river so water levels may not come back up unless there is a significant thaw (Ford Hubbard stepped forward to help explain that one 8)).
The snow making pond is empty to the utter disbelief of one dude in the front row who was the only person in the crowd who was not very civil in his discourse.

No one spoke about the KTA relationship.

Stenger gave a VERY passionate speech about BMA and its importance to not only Burke, but the region as a whole. He also added that the Tennis/swimming facility is supposed to expand on that model of training world class athletes. 

Stenger is a very good speaker and was very adept at smoothing ruffled feathers. 

Ary not so much. The guy has passion but he has some problems channeling it effectively.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/place/I...ata=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x4463c112fff71976
> 
> 
> Stowe has since redone their courts, but it wasn't too long ago they looked like this google capture above.  I'm guessing that Google Maps capture is from two years ago.
> ...



The key here is that those are outdoor courts.

It sounds like there will be some outdoor courts at Burke, however I think the focus is going to be indoor courts. 
I know growing up in VT, I took daily tennis lessons at Powers Park in Lyndonville. There were typically 2-3 days per week that the courts were too wet to play on. It is very difficult to attract people to tennis camps if you can't offer a consistent product. A big plus is that indoor courts can be used year round for training top end players looking for elite camps.
A four court facility would be about 215x125'. A five court facility would be somewhere around 300' long. It sounds like they are planning on using the area just past the main entrance to the base lodge. Between the Mountain Rd, High Meadows Rd, and the maintenance shed/gravel pit.

Keep an eye out for the Act 250 plans coming out in a month or two.


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## burski (Feb 7, 2015)

My take is, there was a lot of BS put forth during tonight's  meeting. Bill Stenger is a passionate guy and he does good work at Jay, but he'll say anything for people to believe him, just ask the people of Newport. The Kelly guy seems even worse. The reason Stanger allows Q to run the resort is because Stenger has no say in who runs the resort, he is there for PR only.  

The excuses for snowmaking are just excuses. It sounds as if the whole management team did not know the capacities or the limits of the existing system and just found out this winter?  They did not know any of these issues going in??? - last year was just as bad as this, and I predict there will be little change next year. Lyndonville electric has plenty of electricity, unfortunately Q has to be willing to pay for it, that's the problem, there's no electrical shortage, Q is just not willing to pay.  It would be nice if the local newspaper went to Lyndonville electric and asked them why they do not have enough electricity to supply Burke, I am sure you would get the truth. 

Counting on indoor tennis or Olympic diving and swimming is simply insane. Do some quick math, even if these sports were growing which they are not, how many people can use an indoor tennis court at one time? Assuming you have 4 courts and even if you have doubles at each court, that is 16 people for a building over 20,000 square feet, just the cost to heat it are astronomical - the numbers do not work. These guys should be made to show a business plan before they are allowed to build these buildings. How much are they going to charge for court fees to make this work financially?  that's why you do not see indoor courts in cold climates, they do not work. Swimming is even worse, how many people can use a diving platform or the lanes in an Olympic pool?  The cost to maintain and heat the water and maintain the building temperatures is even more so than the  tennis facility. 

Then to assume you can have a world-class tennis and swimming academy overnight because BMA is at the same site is even more ludicrous. BMA has a history and track record with the numerous Olympians it has produced, it struggled for most of its history but has become successful after nearly 40 years. There's no tennis and swimming academy at Burke now, but we expect since Q says so, people going to instantly start to go there?  This does not make any sense at all. 

But don't listen to facts and common sense, listen to the BS that was dished out at tonights meeting, Burke will be so much better for it&#55357;&#56881;


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## deadheadskier (Feb 7, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The key here is that those are outdoor courts.
> 
> It sounds like there will be some outdoor courts at Burke, however I think the focus is going to be indoor courts.
> I know growing up in VT, I took daily tennis lessons at Powers Park in Lyndonville. There were typically 2-3 days per week that the courts were too wet to play on. It is very difficult to attract people to tennis camps if you can't offer a consistent product. A big plus is that indoor courts can be used year round for training top end players looking for elite camps.
> ...



It's the greater point.  Stowe, the biggest money destination resort in the state let their outdoor courts go to crap while a $250M+ hotel and base village went up because it was a low priority amenity for their guests.   I doubt it was a weather issue either.  And trust me, I get that there are many days you can't play because of wet weather here in New England.  Happens to me all the time.   But, on a bright sunny day that's not too hot where I play in Durham, NH (home of UNH) maybe 8 of the 16 available courts will be in use......maybe. The 12 of those 16 courts that are located on UNH campus are in complete disrepair. I don't even think they have a club team anymore at the school.   The 4 town maintained courts and almost all the outdoor courts in this area are in need of serious investment and upkeep.  Most indoor facilities are being converted into other forms of athletic use.   

So, I just don't get why Ary thinks that tennis is a worthy and workable investment at Burke. I completely get why VTK found Ary's comment that tennis is a "growing sport" to be total bullshit.  I live adjacent to a huge tourist destination myself.  There are more people on a busy summer Saturday at Hampton Beach, NH than Burke sees in skier visits during an entire season. 100+K people will visit the area on a busy day.  Land is at a premium here.  No tennis resorts exist.  If it's not happening here and not a single major New England ski resort has invested heavily in indoor tennis facilities since pretty much the Reagan administration, you have to think it might not be a very good idea.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> One other point that I just remembered.  Ary said that he will not run the Willoughby chair because of liability reasons, even though it is inspected.  He said that the concern is that liability is greatly enhanced if something bad happens with a lift that is only occasionally used.  So forget Willoughby being available as a back up for the MBX.



Wow.  That makes no sense at all, especially if they are going to move it to the East Bowl (this is at least the third regime who has said that).


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## thetrailboss (Feb 7, 2015)

Looks like someone admitted the truth here:



> The lack of December terrain was because Burke lacked compressed air capacity.



I think a few folks here were saying that.  

And FWIW LED does NOT have a lot of spare electric capacity right now.  Especially now that VTY is gone.

Anything said about the (lack of) marketing?  Stupid name change?  Burning bridges with nearly everyone in town including KT?


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## burski (Feb 8, 2015)

And FWIW LED does NOT have a lot of spare electric capacity right now.  Especially now that VTY is gone.


I disagree with this, the electric utility has not seen any load growth in many years. And actually the number of factories and manufacturers have decreased in Lyndonville over the past several years. They also installed a new substation within the last three or four years that improved their capacity and reliability. Granted there may be times when they need to control their peak load, especially during the Christmas holidays, but this is no excuse to not install another compressor if it needs to be shut down on a very limited number of days  to control peak loads over the course of the winter.  Correlating closing of Vermont Yankee to Lyndonville's available electric supply makes no sense at all, Vermont Yankee was not in business to supply Lyndonville electric with power , there's plenty of power on the market these days, it just needs to be purchased.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> My take is, there was a lot of BS put forth during tonight's  meeting. Bill Stenger is a passionate guy and he does good work at Jay, but he'll say anything for people to believe him, just ask the people of Newport. The Kelly guy seems even worse. The reason Stanger allows Q to run the resort is because Stenger has no say in who runs the resort, he is there for PR only.


Here is what matters to me:  Ary guaranteed the audience that multiple top to bottom routes would be open by Christmas.  Stenger and Ary guaranteed the audience that they will be told exactly what improvements will be made to snowmaking by the time that the early bird season pass rate closes.  If Ary doesn't follow through with these two things he's past the point of no return.  Nobody really cares whether or not a tennis center happens.  But they do care about whether or not there is snow on the hill.

On a more generic level, the second major outcome of the meeting for me was the confirmation that Ary is no Bill Stenger.  Whatever you may think of the whole EB-5 issue, it is clear that Stenger has a PhD in ski area management and public relations whereas Ary just completed the moving up ceremony from kindergarten to first grade.  

This is not to say that the discussion of the EB-5 buildout was irrelevant.  But I am focused now on next year, not the next few years.  Had the next few years been my primary concern, the meeting would not have given me much confidence.   They definitely didn't convince anyone that aquatics and tennis will make Burke a viable operation.  I'm still cringing at Ary's insistence that tennis is a growth industry in the USA.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> And FWIW LED does NOT have a lot of spare electric capacity right now.  Especially now that VTY is gone.
> 
> 
> I disagree with this, the electric utility has not seen any load growth in many years. And actually the number of factories and manufacturers have decreased in Lyndonville over the past several years. They also installed a new substation within the last three or four years that improved their capacity and reliability. Granted there may be times when they need to control their peak load, especially during the Christmas holidays, but this is no excuse to not install another compressor if it needs to be shut down on a very limited number of days  to control peak loads over the course of the winter.  Correlating closing of Vermont Yankee to Lyndonville's available electric supply makes no sense at all, Vermont Yankee was not in business to supply Lyndonville electric with power , there's plenty of power on the market these days, it just needs to be purchased.


FWIW, they specifically identified this as a barrier to their ability to make  lots of snow.  Perhaps it was more of an excuse than reality.   I really don't know.


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## ablb (Feb 8, 2015)

I attended but left before Q&A which I assumed would not be civil based on the aforementioned gentleman. My take away was same; Ary continues to require a short leash in public and can't be trusted to be on his own. Stenger has 0 financial interest in Burke so why is he being trotted out like a dog and pony show? Great guy, knows his business, locals trust him, but why is he doing PR for Burke? 
Ary said "service will improve when the hotel opens". Huh? Why wait? I was happy to hear he won't be running the hotel. 
There are tennis courts at BMA. I rarely see anyone on them. There were also indoor courts at Old Mill in St J. This facility closed last winter.
Many years ago there was an approved plan to run a power line up through the field where the hotel is to provide more power for snowmaking. I don't think this happened. Sounds like its still an issue. 
The rambling lady had one good point. If there is one egress,  Willoughby, down the mountain Xmas week, do we really think that could safely handle 400 additional skiers? Would you rent a room at a hill that has one top to bottom run? 
They promised a Thanksgiving opening next year.  We'll see.


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## River19 (Feb 8, 2015)

Again this whole thing goes back to one of the original points I made a few hundred posts back and still feel strongly about......

They have no flipping idea who their customer is.  You have a roomful of skiers who literally keep the lights on in that place, and you are pinning your hopes on tennis and swimming......it's like answering a question no one asked.  Where is the pent up demand of several hundred tennis players and swimmers just drooling for a multimillion dollar tennis and pool facility in this area?

Heck, if they were talking about a golf course vs. this crap it would make more sense to me......

I'm disappointed that no one asked anything about KTA, but I get that this was a skier focused meeting.....that being said the actual growing sport and activity in this area is still MTB......and they don't come with tennis rackets and speedos......

I say punt the damn tennis and Olympic sized swimming pool and get to work on the whole snow making investment and build that rumored indoor MTB park......which would be one of the first in the Northeast in a place already drawing the right crowd to take advantage of that activity and pay nicely for a pass.  That would be a reason to buy a season MTB pass to Burke vs. Highland, etc. or other downhill lift served parks.....add in the KTA piece and that is a damn fine destination that may put some asses in your hotel.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 8, 2015)

ablb said:


> I attended but left before Q&A which I assumed would not be civil based on the aforementioned



That guy left early too, which I'm glad he did since he seemed really bent on getting in a pissing match.



> There are tennis courts at BMA. I rarely see anyone on them. There were also indoor courts at Old Mill in St J. This facility closed last winter.



Their target market of the tennis facility isn't locals or BMA students.



> Many years ago there was an approved plan to run a power line up through the field where the hotel is to provide more power for snowmaking. I don't think this happened. Sounds like its still an issue.



The new power line was installed in late fall 2013?
I don't think the problem is the amount of power that can be delivered to Burke. It is the amount that Q Burke is buying from LED and the restrictions in the current contract. LED has contracts to buy power from generators and if they go over that amount they pay premium prices. If LED knows that Burke is going to require more power, LED will have to contract for the power from the gererators. And Burke will have to contract to buy that power from LED.


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## ablb (Feb 8, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> That guy left early too, which I'm glad he did since he seemed really bent on getting in a pissing match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I realize the target audience isn't locals or BMA....just don't see the "build it and they will come" philosophy making sense and there was no mention of any market studies etc. In my opinion the meeting was disjointed at best.  It did nothing to help improve perceptions of Ary.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

The more I think about it, it's actually rather embarrassing to see how much Ary relied on Stenger to save Ary from himself.  Whose mountain is it?

The Q&A, as I mentioned earlier, was very respectful - and there were some interesting points brought up during the Q&A.

If there was one flaw in the meeting it's that it was very disjointed.  But that tends to happen at events such as this.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 8, 2015)

Thank you VTKilarney, from_the_NEK, ablb and the others that attended and shared their experiences. Lots of information to digest.


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## burski (Feb 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> They have no flipping idea who their customer is.  You have a roomful of skiers who literally keep the lights on in that place, and you are pinning your hopes on tennis and swimming......it's like answering a question no one asked.  Where is the pent up demand of several hundred tennis players and swimmers just drooling for a multimillion dollar tennis and pool facility in this area.



Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

One really odd thing about the meeting is that they made absolutely no mention of their application to install night skiing.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> One really odd thing about the meeting is that they made absolutely no mention of their application to install night skiing.



Has there been any indication of it other than the Act 250 application? I have a pretty strong suspicion that this particular project is not going to be pursued.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

Nothin that I have seen.  Why file if they aren't going to pursue it?


.


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## ablb (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.



Li Na is her name. So wealthy Chinese are going to send their children here to train?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Nothin that I have seen.  Why file if they aren't going to pursue it?



Is it really going to be for "winter" use?? The plan just showed the terrain park and the beginner slope lit...


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## ablb (Feb 8, 2015)

For anyone who missed this in October. http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/octo...estors-question-state-watchdog’s-independence


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## River19 (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.



Fair point, I had my NEK and New England hat on, not my Chinease hat...what was I thinking.  Makes sense through the warped view of the eb5


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## Tin Woodsman (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.



Yeah - it's a big pyramid scheme.  Everything is a plot to rip you off!  Scary foreigners who don't look/sound like us!!  

Brilliant deductive reasoning!

EB-5 has some issues I'm sure, like most govt programs with insufficient oversight. But you guys act as if a single nickle would get invested in the otherwise economically irrelevant NEK w/o it.  That, alas, is simply not the case - the last 300 years of its history amply demonstrates.  Instead of demonizing the program and treating it like neanderthals seeing fire for the first time, perhaps you'd be better off redirecting your energy to improving what's in place.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2015)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Yeah - it's a big pyramid scheme.  Everything is a plot to rip you off!  Scary foreigners who don't look/sound like us!!
> 
> Brilliant deductive reasoning!
> 
> EB-5 has some issues I'm sure, like most govt programs with insufficient oversight. But you guys act as if a single nickle would get invested in the otherwise economically irrelevant NEK w/o it.  That, alas, is simply not the case - the last 300 years of its history amply demonstrates.  Instead of demonizing the program and treating it like neanderthals seeing fire for the first time, perhaps you'd be better off redirecting your energy to improving what's in place.



So ignorant.  Did EHV need EB-5?  Did the Fairbanks family?  Did the Comfort Inn?  Sorry, but we're not orphans depending on a handout of porridge.  


.


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## burski (Feb 8, 2015)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Yeah - it's a big pyramid scheme.  Everything is a plot to rip you off!  Scary foreigners who don't look/sound like us!!
> 
> Brilliant deductive reasoning!



What???  I don't know anyone who is worried about foreigners coming to Burke, it  would be nice to see some new faces in the area.  No one at Burke is being ripped off or claiming such nonsense, and foreign investors are not ripping anyone off anyway, they are the ones being ripped off by the DEVELOPERS taking advantage of the EB5 program. I feel sorry for these investors. I am glad to see investment in Burke I would just rather not see useless investment that will likely be an anchor to the future viability of the resort and area.


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## Amos Hobbs (Feb 8, 2015)

See stats from Physical Activity Council 2014 Participation Report on water and racquet sports....
http://www.physicalactivitycouncil.com/pdfs/current.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2015)

burski said:


> Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.



Wow good call. I never even thought about that.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2015)

ablb said:


> I attended but left before Q&A which I assumed would not be civil based on the aforementioned gentleman. My take away was same; Ary continues to require a short leash in public and can't be trusted to be on his own. Stenger has 0 financial interest in Burke so why is he being trotted out like a dog and pony show? Great guy, knows his business, locals trust him, but why is he doing PR for Burke?
> Ary said "service will improve when the hotel opens". Huh? Why wait? I was happy to hear he won't be running the hotel.
> There are tennis courts at BMA. I rarely see anyone on them. There were also indoor courts at Old Mill in St J. This facility closed last winter.
> Many years ago there was an approved plan to run a power line up through the field where the hotel is to provide more power for snowmaking. I don't think this happened. Sounds like its still an issue.
> ...



You answered your own question regarding Stenger: he's the only one who can do any good PR. Both father Q and Q Jr. have both abysmally failed at it. It's time for them to literally be silent partners as they are at Jay.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> tennis is pretty much a non-draw......maybe something nice to do when you run out of everything else to do, but *who travels to play tennis?*



Actually, lots of kids do.  Tennis was my #1 sport as a kid and I traveled for tournaments quite a bit.  Problem is, I only traveled in my district.  The USTA carves America up into 17 districts, and Vermont is D1 with NH, ME, CT, RI, and MA, so I imagine that would be the likely target market if Burke tries to get into lots of camps and tennis tournaments.  But to your point, I think the question should be, "who travels to ne.VT to play tennis?"  That would be a pretty tough sell were I a tennis parent from CT or MA I think.



from_the_NEK said:


> VTKilarney summarized the meeting quite well.
> The physicain lady rambled a lot and kept coming back to the same topic as though she forgot the answer they had just given her. And she seemed *willing to put wind turbines all over the mountain to generate electricity even though the CFO said the one that is there is barely worth it (estimated 50 years before it breaks even).*



An honest financial assessment of wind power?  How heart-warmingly refreshing.   And I'll bet that analysis doesn't even include the lost opportunity cost either, but still, I'm impressed.



burski said:


> Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this  country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.



Interesting take.  Don't know if you're right, but if it turns out that "diving" is a focus of the aquatic center I'd be willing to bet you're onto something, as that's one of the most popular sports in China.


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## River19 (Feb 8, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Actually, lots of kids do.  Tennis was my #1 sport as a kid and I traveled for tournaments quite a bit.  Problem is, I only traveled in my district.  The USTA carves America up into 17 districts, and Vermont is D1 with NH, ME, CT, RI, and MA, so I imagine that would be the likely target market if Burke tries to get into lots of camps and tennis tournaments.  But to your point, I think the question should be, "who travels to ne.VT to play tennis?"  That would be a pretty tough sell were I a tennis parent from CT or MA I think.



Fair point, I played tennis as a kid and for a bit after college for fun here and there, problem was, no one else played......and I stopped looking for playing partners.  My point, as you correctly interpreted was out of all the things you could build to draw people to you quiet little mountain......they went with friggin' tennis?  What lost out to tennis as the idea they dropped? Indoor Bocci?  A massive indoor horseshoe facility?

Hey I hope it works out, heck maybe I'll play a little, but I'm sure glad it isn't my coin funding that thing.

I'll tell you what......there better not be good tennis facilities and shit snow making otherwise something went horribly wrong, again.  Just get the hotel built and get the snowmaking sorted out to be at least league average with the rest of New England.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 9, 2015)

The woman that died apparently fell, slid off of Carriage Road, and hit a tree. She was by herself at the time and wasn't reported missing until the end of the day by the person she was at the mountain with. It's a scary thought that she was lying there for some undetermined/reported amount of time with no help or even anyone looking for her. :sad:


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## River19 (Feb 9, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The woman that died apparently fell, slid off of Carriage Road, and hit a tree. She was by herself at the time and wasn't reported missing until the end of the day by the person she was at the mountain with. It's a scary thought that she was lying there for some undetermined/reported amount of time with no help or even anyone looking for her. :sad:



Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours?  Seems odd to me.

Tragic.


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## ironhippy (Feb 9, 2015)

River19 said:


> Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours?  Seems odd to me.
> 
> Tragic.



depends, but not normally. 

If I am skiing "with" people we would normally wait up at the bottom for the rest of the group to catch up. 

It could be that they were skiing together, but someone decided to go to the lodge and the other wanted to keep skiing. In those situations, if you aren't actively trying to find the other people (by waiting at the top or the bottom), you can miss them even if you're skiing the same trails.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 9, 2015)

River19 said:


> Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours?  Seems odd to me.
> 
> Tragic.



Only time this happens with me is if I'm skiing with someone of a different ability and they want to ski different terrain than I do.  In that situation, there's no intention of meeting at the lift in between runs, so you can go a couple of hours between meeting up again.  

If I'm skiing the same trail as someone though, I have full intention of meeting them back at the lift, if not sooner if we are skiing in the trees.  Lately, I've actually thought about carrying a whistle with me when I ski the trees and a having a spare for a skiing partner.  In dense trees, it's pretty easy to get separated and voices really don't carry very far in a thick forest.


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## mbedle (Feb 9, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000. 



deadheadskier said:


> They've been in business for 59 years.  That's as long as most major ski resorts in the State.  It's a couple of years longer than Killington and Sugarbush.   Combine that and the history of Olympic skiers who trained there and I say yes, it's a historic ski area.
> 
> If the Quiros started their own ski resort from scratch, I wouldn't have much of an issue with calling it "Q" Mountain Resort.   The fact that it's been Burke Mountain for 59 years is a little different though.  When Les Otten bought Sunday River, he didn't change the name to "O" Sunday River Resort.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 9, 2015)

Not sure.  I certainly don't recall ever seeing a Trail Map saying Burke 2000 or hearing a radio advertisement for Burke 2000


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000.



Sort of.  

The major benefactor for BMA provided money to a specially created entity related to BMA to buy and run the mountain for a number of years.  To the Average Joe it was BMA I guess you can say.  

That major benefactor looked for a buyer to take it over.  In 2005 he convinced *these folks* to buy the area as a REIT and *this guy and his company* to develop and operate it.  (Hence the corporate name GinnLaBurski).  

Things crashed of course.  In 2011 the same angel worked to get the new HSQ installed and helped finance it.  Q's came into the picture in early 2012 when they bought Burke.  As a last gift, to BMA and the mountain, the angel financed some snowmaking work.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 9, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000.



That was the operating/business/name they register with the IRS. 

They didn't change the brand/public facing name.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2015)

FWIW there were two other name/brand changes that were short-lived.  

First, from 1991-1995 or so it was "Burke Mountain" but was a part of "Bear Kingdom, Ltd."  Some of the signs and ads did have both names.  

More recently, there was a short-lived name change from 1995-1996 when the resort was named "Northern Star/Burke Mountain."  They dropped "Northern Star" after the first year or so.  

And while the entities from 2000-2012 had names other than Burke Mountain, it was always "Burke Mountain".


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## River19 (Feb 9, 2015)

And yet we are still stuck with the dumbest one of all.......the Q....


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## mbedle (Feb 9, 2015)

According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry. As far as making money, wouldn't the majority of income from a tennis and aquatic facility would come from coaching, lessons, tournament fees, hotel reservations and food?




VTKilarney said:


> Here is what matters to me:  Ary guaranteed the audience that multiple top to bottom routes would be open by Christmas.  Stenger and Ary guaranteed the audience that they will be told exactly what improvements will be made to snowmaking by the time that the early bird season pass rate closes.  If Ary doesn't follow through with these two things he's past the point of no return.  Nobody really cares whether or not a tennis center happens.  But they do care about whether or not there is snow on the hill.
> 
> On a more generic level, the second major outcome of the meeting for me was the confirmation that Ary is no Bill Stenger.  Whatever you may think of the whole EB-5 issue, it is clear that Stenger has a PhD in ski area management and public relations whereas Ary just completed the moving up ceremony from kindergarten to first grade.
> 
> This is not to say that the discussion of the EB-5 buildout was irrelevant.  But I am focused now on next year, not the next few years.  Had the next few years been my primary concern, the meeting would not have given me much confidence.   They definitely didn't convince anyone that aquatics and tennis will make Burke a viable operation.  I'm still cringing at Ary's insistence that tennis is a growth industry in the USA.


----------



## mbedle (Feb 9, 2015)

I read it on another site, and it made it sound like they changed the name. I must have read it wrong and it makes sense it was just and operational name for the company and not the resort name.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 9, 2015)

mbedle said:


> According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry.



Regionally maybe.  New England?  I highly doubt it.  All Industry Associations will massage the numbers to show growth.  The fact is that more indoor tennis facilities in New England are closing than are being built.  And trust me, I look for new ones all the time in hopes of finding lesser expensive places to play indoors than what exists in reasonable commute from me currently.   I just think they are way too expensive to heat in today's energy price climate to offer much if any of an ROI.


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## mbedle (Feb 9, 2015)

You are right that industry association always try to paint the best picture. Do we have any idea how much this facility is going to costs to build?



deadheadskier said:


> Regionally maybe.  New England?  I highly doubt it.  All Industry Associations will massage the numbers to show growth.  The fact is that more indoor tennis facilities in New England are closing than are being built.  And trust me, I look for new ones all the time in hopes of finding lesser expensive places to play indoors than what exists in reasonable commute from me currently.   I just think they are way too expensive to heat in today's energy price climate to offer much if any of an ROI.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2015)

mbedle said:


> According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry. As far as making money, wouldn't the majority of income from a tennis and aquatic facility would come from coaching, lessons, tournament fees, hotel reservations and food?


Actually, the TIA report that is most often cited says that there is a growth in _participation_ - in shockingly large numbers.  This is likely a result of their aggressive outreach program to children, which really took off as the Williams sisters entered the scene.  But participation isn't the end of the story.  

If you look at the statistics involving actual money spent on tennis, it paints a very different picture.  The statistics show that the amount spent on tennis is not keeping pace with population growth and inflation.  That's a fancy way of saying that it's in a decline.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2015)

Using tennis as a means to pitch the project to Chinese investors makes complete sense.


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## burski (Feb 9, 2015)

mbedle said:


> You are right that industry association always try to paint the best picture. Do we have any idea how much this facility is going to costs to build?


I believe the budget for both the tennis and pool was between $15-$20 million - it seems like a no brainer, who wouldn't want to invest in this. I am sure Q will be able to pay off investors immediately with this cash cow... These structures, if built, will become nothing more than homes for small mammals in the future!


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

Well the good news is, the owners that take over after Q can re-purpose the tennis facility pretty easily.......

All joking aside, It isn't my money thankfully.  I believe, and someone can correct me, that the EB5 projects sit in a silo as they have so many specific provisions attached to them as far as job creation etc. and the funding of course is separate from the operational budgets.  And this is where I get concerned, where is the large amount of capital for the snow-making overhaul coming from?


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## ablb (Feb 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well the good news is, the owners that take over after Q can re-purpose the tennis facility pretty easily.......
> 
> All joking aside, It isn't my money thankfully.  I believe, and someone can correct me, that the EB5 projects sit in a silo as they have so many specific provisions attached to them as far as job creation etc. and the funding of course is separate from the operational budgets.  And this is where I get concerned, where is the large amount of capital for the snow-making overhaul coming from?




There are some very interesting articles on EB5
http://www.wsj.com/articles/investor-visas-soaked-up-by-chinese-1409095982

China is also imposing  limits on their side post the Virginia and Chicago scams.


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## ablb (Feb 10, 2015)

In the end it doesn't matter what they build from the investors perspective, since the primary motivator is buying US citizenship.  EB5 is administered by Immigration Services, not typically the bureaucracy that has experience counting jobs and reviewing business plans. The job counting includes "peripheral" or indirect job creation. The job counts for Jay are wildly inflated. If true the unemployment rate in the NEK would be 0.


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## the original trailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well the good news is, the owners that take over after Q can re-purpose the tennis facility pretty easily.......
> 
> All joking aside, It isn't my money thankfully.  I believe, and someone can correct me, that the EB5 projects sit in a silo as they have so many specific provisions attached to them as far as job creation etc. and the funding of course is separate from the operational budgets.  And this is where I get concerned, where is the large amount of capital for the snow-making overhaul coming from?



From the hotel revenue stream, of course...............


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

I've seen figures of $108 million for the who project and $55 million for the hotel.  


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> From the hotel revenue stream, of course...............



That is the piece I would like to see them confirm, which of course I wouldn't admit if I were them as it is a dubious plan.  So the snow making investment probably relies on filling the hotel, which most likely requires snow making to fill and/or a shitload of good luck like the past 3 weeks of snow.

But even if that is true and they fill that thing from day 1....which we were told is mid December 2015......that means no significant improvement in snow making until the 2016/2017 season?

Let's do some simple math here......116 rooms......assume a 15 week season for this simple example....lets also assume $200/night per room

100% occupancy, 7 days per week, for 15 weeks is what like $2.4M in total room revenue, excluding food/drink sales and potential increased pass revenue.......which is obviously not reality as no hotel is 100% occupancy.  I wonder what the financing options are for a multi-million dollar snow making setup as the debt service needs to be supported by the hotel, which may be possible if they can get decent occupancy for the season.  It's really not a hard pro-forma to build necessarily........a slow start to the hotel open due to "meh" snow conditions could spell serious trouble though.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> That is the piece I would like to see them confirm, which of course I wouldn't admit if I were them as it is a dubious plan.  So the snow making investment probably relies on filling the hotel, which most likely requires snow making to fill and/or a shitload of good luck like the past 3 weeks of snow.
> 
> But even if that is true and they fill that thing from day 1....which we were told is mid December 2015......that means no significant improvement in snow making until the 2016/2017 season?
> 
> ...



Passholders were told that revenues associated with the hotel will be the mechanism to pay for snow making system enhancements.    


.


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Passholders were told that revenues associated with the hotel will be the mechanism to pay for snow making system enhancements.
> 
> 
> .



Sounds like..."you want snow?  keep paying for shitty early season snow and eventually you may get some snow making improvements"

What would the passholders have said to Wildcat if they said "give us 2-3 years".......?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> Sounds like..."you want snow?  keep paying for shitty early season snow and eventually you may get some snow making improvements"
> 
> What would the passholders have said to Wildcat if they said "give us 2-3 years".......?



I'm keeping an open mind until the phase 1 plans come out in a couple of months.  


.


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm keeping an open mind until the phase 1 plans come out in a couple of months.
> 
> 
> .



More wait and see.......time will tell.  In the meantime, snow is not a problem anywhere in New England.......lol


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## mbedle (Feb 10, 2015)

Is it possible that Burke could use the future projected earnings from the hotel to obtain funding to complete the snowmaking upgrades?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Is it possible that Burke could use the future projected earnings from the hotel to obtain funding to complete the snowmaking upgrades?


My assumption is that the hotel revenues go back into the hotel corporation itself.  I can't imagine the investors approving it going elsewhere.  However, those hotel guests will presumably be purchasing lift tickets, food, etc.  

Despite all of the new EB-5 hotel rooms at Jay Peak, we haven't seen significant upgrades to ski area operations as of this point in time.  The biggest is probably the purchase of the energy efficient snow guns.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2015)

The snowmaking system needs a $2M upgrade at minimum.  It will be a long time before the hotel earnings will cover that.  The Qs need to bite the bullet and shell out that money upfront otherwise they will have a lot of empty hotel rooms making no money at all for them.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The snowmaking system needs a $2M upgrade at minimum.  It will be a long time before the hotel earnings will cover that.  The Qs need to bite the bullet and shell out that money upfront otherwise they will have a lot of empty hotel rooms making no money at all for them.



Agreed.  Probably more than $2 mill if they are going to redo the whole thing and add more coverage.  If they are going to run a ski area they need to invest in the product.


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The snowmaking system needs a $2M upgrade at minimum.  It will be a long time before the hotel earnings will cover that.  The Qs need to bite the bullet and shell out that money upfront otherwise they will have a lot of empty hotel rooms making no money at all for them.



I agree with you.  I always come back to the chicken or the egg theory.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2015)

Now, if someone suggested hotel profits would greatly help fund the snowmaking operating budget, that I could see.  But, to suggest the profits would cover the necessary capital improvements needed?  Lol.......no


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

What encouraged me from the recent meeting is that they recognize the fact that they need to sell hotel rooms, and it seemed that they understood that having 8 trails open during Christmas break is not going to accomplish that goal.  So I am convinced that if it can be done they are going to make improvements to the mountain - even if it's an incremental process.  I'm certainly aware that there are a lot of moving pieces that need to fall into place, but as I mentioned earlier I am will to be optimistic for now.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Despite all of the new EB-5 hotel rooms at Jay Peak, *we haven't seen significant upgrades to ski area operations as of this point in time.*  The biggest is probably the purchase of the energy efficient snow guns.



Yep, so evidently the EB-5 isn't a cure-all for all resort problems, or the single answer to creating the capital to try.



deadheadskier said:


> The snowmaking system needs a $2M upgrade at minimum.  It will be a long time before the hotel earnings will cover that. * The Qs need to bite the bullet and shell out that money upfront otherwise they will have a lot of empty hotel rooms making no money at all for them.*



Q-senior could fund the upgrades if he wanted to, why he isn't, and therefore setting things up for failure makes one wonder.



thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.*  Probably more than $2 mill if they are going to redo the whole thing and add more coverage.*  If they are going to run a ski area they need to invest in the product.



The lesson to be learned is what Wildcat went thru over the past 18-24 months... If they could even accomplish 30% of what Wildcat did, improvement-wise, I'd be willing to be that most of the negative vibes would disappear.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 10, 2015)

They stated they are going to increase compressor capacity for next year... (So that means they'll just have a handful of rental diesel compressors that Ary did away with? Seems like without giving out a solid explanation of what they plan to do to remedy the shortfall, all they are inferring is that they'll be back to where they were last year, without actually fixing any problems.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 10, 2015)

Seems that while they did give out lots of new information, they didn't really address the reason why the meeting had to be held in the first place. The issues the skiers/riders/condo owners/second homeowners brought up and were irate about since the holidays. Sounded like it was glossed over as quickly as possible without stating anything was actually going to change. Sorry, but that's the way you all have it portrayed for me...

If they were serious, SMI would have been there too, and they'd be bragging up and down what the future plans are, even if they were only going to accomplish 5% of the plan before next season begins. Sure didn't sound like that.

Proof will be in the pudding, guess we'll have to wait and see if any improvements start to happen over the summer. If nothing is observed, then I guess we'll have our answer.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They stated they are going to increase compressor capacity for next year... (So that means they'll just have a handful of rental diesel compressors that Ary did away with? Seems like without giving out a solid explanation of what they plan to do to remedy the shortfall, all they are inferring is that they'll be back to where they were last year, without actually fixing any problems.


We will just have to wait and see.  They said that the passholders will be told exactly what is going to be done for next year.  Until we get that information we are just speculating.  On the other hand, they were clear that whatever is done will only be "phase 1" of a multi-year project.  So the total solution isn't coming in time for next year.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm happy to see that most here are taking a wait and see attitude. One thought on why the mountain is being underinvested in right now and that the hotel will see a large spike in investment, both in terms of infrastructure and personnel, is that I imagine that the EB-5 funding can help to fund things besides just the physical infrastructure of the hotel. Also, if you really want to have a jobs calculation that shows incremental ~10 jobs per 500k investor, you probably would want to start out by really trimming back on the # of people before the hotel gets built out. Hopefully, the +1 that matters most on incremental job creation will actually be a +2 (Hotel Mgr and Mtn Mgr) and a -1 (Ary Jr.)


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2015)

The thing I still don't understand is what Burke is going to offer and/or compete on to fill those 110+ hotel rooms during all the non-holiday weekends?

    Why would folks drive past or farther than s.VT, Sugarbush, MRG, Killington, Stowe, and all the NH places to ski and stay at Burke?


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I'm happy to see that most here are taking a wait and see attitude. One thought on why the mountain is being underinvested in right now and that the hotel will see a large spike in investment, both in terms of infrastructure and personnel, is that I imagine that the EB-5 funding can help to fund things besides just the physical infrastructure of the hotel.


EB-5 $ can only be used on the physical construction project that it is designated for. It can only be used for new construction as well. No renovations, etc.



> Also, if you really want to have a jobs calculation that shows incremental ~10 jobs per 500k investor, you probably would want to start out by really trimming back on the # of people before the hotel gets built out. Hopefully, the +1 that matters most on incremental job creation will actually be a +2 (Hotel Mgr and Mtn Mgr) and a -1 (Ary Jr.)



Interesting theory that drawing down the number of people employed at Burke right now, will help them meet their "jobs created" mark when they hire more people after the hotel is complete.


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## xwhaler (Feb 10, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The thing I still don't understand is what Burke is going to offer and/or compete on to fill those 110+ hotel rooms during all the non-holiday weekends?
> 
> Why would folks drive past or farther than s.VT, Sugarbush, MRG, Killington, Stowe, and all the NH places to ski and stay at Burke?


Less crowded, probably a better value, really nice terrain serviced by a HSQ, great learning area again with a HSQ. Brand new hotel.
Lots of draws to Burke IMHO


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> EB-5 $ can only be used on the physical construction project that it is designated for. It can only be used for new construction as well. No renovations.



True, however I assume a little 'tricky math' can be done on the infrastructure right around the hotel and the grey line between it and the mountain (for instance, the magic carpet they will be installing) and the snow making right around the hotel.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 10, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Less crowded, probably a better value, really nice terrain serviced by a HSQ, great learning area again with a HSQ. Brand new hotel.
> Lots of draws to Burke IMHO



I agree, also, I have been hearing a ton of complaints about lift lines at places like Loon and Waterville lately. Someone even told me that they're willing to drive the 50 minutes to and from their condo in Lincoln (Loon) each way to Burke because they will get in more runs at Burke, even while adding in the drive time.


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## xwhaler (Feb 10, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I agree, also, I have been hearing a ton of complaints about lift lines at places like Loon and Waterville lately. Someone even told me that they're willing to drive the 50 minutes to and from their condo in Lincoln (Loon) each way to Burke because they will get in more runs at Burke, even while adding in the drive time.


I believe it....with Burke's HSQ and lack of lines you can bag a ton of vertical up there. I'm always in favor of driving further and not standing in lines.
Burke's terrain really does offer something for everyone. That learning area is really great and I think will prove to be very popular with families once Burke is discovered.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Burke's terrain really does offer something for everyone. That learning area is really great and I think will prove to be very popular with families once Burke is discovered.


With one exception.  There is no good trail to transition from the learning area to the main mountain.  But your point is well taken.

Let's not be naive about driving.  Burke has always had to deal with that issue.  It's not going away.  But... there are definitely people willing to make the drive.  Lots of them own condos and were at the meeting the other night.  The question is whether or not there are enough of those people out there to warrant a new hotel.  That's where a cracker jack marketing team is going to have to come in.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> With one exception.  There is no good trail to transition from the learning area to the main mountain.  But your point is well taken.



Which is why this should be the priority over East Bowl....


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

Just got an Email blast that Burke is borrowing John Egan from Sugarbush for a special event on March 9-10th.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Which is why this should be the priority over East Bowl....


Agreed.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Interesting theory that* drawing down the number of people employed at Burke right now, will help them meet their "jobs created" mark when they hire more people* after the hotel is complete.



LOL.  That would be intentionally fraudulent manipulation of the numbers, but I've seen worse shenanigans.    I had to do some accounting for the Economic Stimulus back in 2008/2009, and I felt like I needed to take a shower from the "jobs created and saved" metric it was so dirty.



SkiRaceParent said:


> True, however I assume a little 'tricky math' can be done on the infrastructure right around the hotel and the grey line between it and the mountain (for instance, the magic carpet they will be installing) and *the snow making right around the hotel*.



EB-5 cant be used for snow-making or other capital equipment purchases.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> LOL.  That would be intentionally fraudulent manipulation of the numbers, but I've seen worse shenanigans.



I'd say more a convenient manipulation. 
Burke has pretty much always run in the red. Reducing staff to balance the ledger is perfectly legal even though it sucks for everyone involved. Once the hotel is built, many of those positions have a chance of coming back as the demand for the services potentially increases.


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## River19 (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'd say more a convenient manipulation.
> Burke has pretty much always run in the red. Reducing staff to balance the ledger is perfectly legal even though it sucks for everyone involved. Once the hotel is built, many of those positions have a chance of coming back as the demand for the services potentially increases.



And since it would help their jobs created number look healthier.....in their mind a win/win.

It will be interesting if the hotel can draw enough summer business to justify keeping it open all year.


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## Masskier (Feb 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The snowmaking system needs a $2M upgrade at minimum.  It will be a long time before the hotel earnings will cover that.  The Qs need to bite the bullet and shell out that money upfront otherwise they will have a lot of empty hotel rooms making no money at all for them.





thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.  Probably more than $2 mill if they are going to redo the whole thing and add more coverage.  If they are going to run a ski area they need to invest in the product.



A lot more.  The system that SMI is designing for Burke is "state of the art".  It will be a substantial investment that will be made over a few years.


----------



## Masskier (Feb 10, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They stated they are going to increase compressor capacity for next year... (So that means they'll just have a handful of rental diesel compressors that Ary did away with? Seems like without giving out a solid explanation of what they plan to do to remedy the shortfall, all they are inferring is that they'll be back to where they were last year, without actually fixing any problems.



I think (hope) the plan is to add electric compressors and to increase the pumping capacity on the upper mountain for next year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> A lot more.  The system that SMI is designing for Burke is "state of the art".  It will be a substantial investment that will be made over a few years.


I don't think that anyone is questioning the overall goal.  The concern that has been expressed here has to do with the reality of a plan that counts on hotel revenues to pay for it.  But, frankly, I'm not asking for a state of the art system right now.  I'm just asking for something moderately acceptable.  That's why I am keeping an open mind and am eagerly awaiting the plans that they release for next year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I think (hope) the plan is to add electric compressors and to increase the pumping capacity on the upper mountain for next year.


If they said that electricity was an impediment, why not diesel compressors?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

I think we have to be realistic with these guys.  It would be GREAT if they got back to where they were for next season.  That is doable.  I would not expect major upgrades or work for next season.  Remember that these guys lately have been overpromising and underdelivering.  Don't agree with me?  Well, enjoy your ride on the new Bonnie Six Pack at Jay....that was supposed to be installed in 2013.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If they said that electricity was an impediment, why not diesel compressors?



Diesel compressors were used in the past but I believe the increase in diesel fuel prompted a change to electric. Now that the diesel cost has changed it would likely make sense to go back.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> It would be GREAT if they got back to where they were for next season.  That is doable.



That's what I am hoping for next year.  I don't think anyone has suggested that more will happen, and nobody in their right mind would take things more than one step at a time.  


.


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## the original trailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm not sure this was mentioned in the meeting report but Bill Kelly made a relatively big deal about the Bear Den Lounge being preserved, re-located or somehow incorporated into a replacement structure for the Mid-Burke Lodge. The Bear Den salvation was clearly a bone for the past tense but it seems clearer now that some for of replacement lodge is at least being considered. Possibly that fancy hotel isn't the best location for a bunch of ski racers and locals..........


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2015)

So let's be realistic about this.  If Q Burke makes improvements over the summer to get snowmaking back to where it has recently been, and if we have the same weather next year through the Christmas break, how many trails would be open during the break compared to the 8 we had open this year?  More importantly, how many more ways will there be down the main mountain?  Instead of only one way, how many more can we expect?


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So let's be realistic about this.  If Q Burke makes improvements over the summer to get snowmaking back to where it has recently been, and if we have the same weather next year through the Christmas break, how many trails would be open during the break compared to the 8 we had open this year?  More importantly, how many more ways will there be down the main mountain?  Instead of only one way, how many more can we expect?



Historically, with the caveat that this is based on my memory and experience, in an average year they have these runs open for Christmas Week from snowmaking work:

Upper Willoughby
Lower Bear Den 
Lower Fox's
Lower Warren's
Carriage Road
Lower Dipper
Shoot
Upper Fox's (maybe)
Middle of Toll Road from Shoot/Upper Fox's over to Dippers
Upper Bear Den (aka Meadows)
Lower Willoughby (maybe)
High Meadows Pass
Dashney Mile
Binney Lane
Bunker Hill
Carter Country

So we're talking 2.5 ways down off the top.


----------



## ablb (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Which is why this should be the priority over East Bowl....



I hope they don't ruin East Bowl. There is some great glade runs in there. Whatever new trails they cut in need to be done thoughtfully.


----------



## Boardguy (Feb 10, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why would folks drive past or farther than s.VT, Sugarbush, MRG, Killington, Stowe, and all the NH places to ski and stay at Burke?



In my case the reason I drive by more southern areas is that I live in a summer resort community. My main criteria in a choice of ski area was to not wait in a lift line with the same people I have to deal with all summer. Also the southern Vt. areas are almost the same drive time for me. Burke may be a little longer but not all that much. The N.H. areas would be a shorter drive but reason #1 still applies. The extra time to drive to Jay was a deal breaker so Burke it is and I have been very happy with my choice.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Which is why this should be the priority over East Bowl....




This makes WAY more sense than moving that lift to the East Bowl.  It would also cost in the order of 7 figures less to execute.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> This makes WAY more sense than moving that lift to the East Bowl.  It would also cost in the order of 7 figures less to execute.



The Willoughby is a retrofitted lift that originally dates back to 1966.  The pylons are from 1966.  The other components are from 1988-1989 or so.  It is getting old.  If the move it they will have to replace a lot of the components.  It will be too costly to move it for what it's worth IMHO.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2015)

All the more reason to just shorten it and let it live out the rest of it's useful life where it currently resides.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> All the more reason to just shorten it and let it live out the rest of it's useful life where it currently resides.



Exactly


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2015)

And Burke could have a good group of early season trails served by a quad (about a 6 minute ride to the unload point) that would be fairly easy to cover with man-made snow without having to worry about connecting it to the top of the Mtn.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 11, 2015)

For those that are new to this thread, I mapped out the previous owners plan for East Bowl:
Big wide trail right through the heart of the bowl. A huge wide trail coming off of Powderhorn, etc. :-?





And then adapted it to be more along the lines of what I would like to see:
White = existing trail
Green = existing glade
Yellow = new glade
Purple = new trail


----------



## DoublePlanker (Feb 11, 2015)

It seems like too much lift capacity for a quad to serve a bowl full of glades.  Perhaps they should just put a t-bar in with a few tunnels.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 11, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> It seems like too much lift capacity for a quad to serve a bowl full of glades.  Perhaps they should just put a t-bar in with a few tunnels.



A Castlerockesque double chair would be perfect IMHO.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 11, 2015)

Keep in mind that they are going to want to appeal to the broadest audience possible.  With that in mind, I see two options:
1) Add trails to the west side of the mountain to appeal to experienced beginners and low intermediates and develop the east bowl area as an "adventure" glades area.
2) If nothing is done in the west side, then they are going to have to add some trails if they develop the east bowl area.


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## DoublePlanker (Feb 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> A Castlerockesque double chair would be perfect IMHO.



Yes, that would be great.

However, it seems like management would want a couple of wider cruising trails to serve the larger ski market.   In order to grow the business, maybe they need to appeal wider.  That would be a shame if they carve up the east bowl glades too much.


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## faQ (Feb 11, 2015)

It would be great if they could develop to the west and leave East Bowl without a lift.  I wouldn't mind a couple more glades cut though.


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## ablb (Feb 11, 2015)

There are 4 great existing glades off East Bowl. Just have to know where to go. I hope they don't cut any wide trails like Dipper.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2015)

ablb said:


> There are 4 great existing glades off East Bowl. Just have to know where to go. I hope they don't cut any wide trails like Dipper.



+ 1.


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 12, 2015)

*Early Season Snowmaking off the top*

It seems to me that if they had more compressor capacity they could have had the following done before xmas:

1) Willoughy to lower Bear Den to lower training hill-  Down low is high meadows, BUnker Hill and the J-bar area. (as they had this year) 

2) add the lowest section of Foxes, under the old chair--  get the weekend crowd off of the lower section of the training hill.  This was DANGEROUS this year-  BMA seems to need all the lanes they can get early season and w/o the Lowest section of Foxes under the chair the general public must go there as well.  Rope off the lower training hill when it is used full width.   Very little snow is required to oipen this alternate route.

3) Before Lower Willoughby, ADD Carriage Road to middle of Dipper to Little Dipper-   you now have another way off the top with the lowest acre-ft of snow required.  The top of the Dippers and the Bottom of the Dippers require a very high volume of snow

4) Lower Willoughby

5) fill in the Dippers

In almost any winter they should be able to get through item 3 before xmas.  This year they could have had item 4 at least had they used the early cold & that is with only the one electric compressor.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Feb 12, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> It seems to me that if they had more compressor capacity they could have had the following done before xmas:
> 
> 1) Willoughy to lower Bear Den to lower training hill-  Down low is high meadows, BUnker Hill and the J-bar area. (as they had this year)
> 
> ...



+1, I almost felt like the decision they made was to get the terrain park opened prior to another route from the top. Don't know if this is fact, just conjecture.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> +1, I almost felt like the decision they made was to get the terrain park opened prior to another route from the top. Don't know if this is fact, just conjecture.


I think we can assume that this was their decision since it's what they actually did.  I'm sure that they don't choose trails to make snow on at random.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 12, 2015)

I have a pretty strong feeling there was a lot of demand coming from the LSC pass holders that ride the terrain park all day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

FWIW since Ginn took over the park has been a big draw.  They have a large following for those features.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 12, 2015)

Having the park open keeps all the jibbers off the single trail from the summit too .


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think we can assume that this was their decision since it's what they actually did.  I'm sure that they don't choose trails to make snow on at random.



That was not the point. The point had more to do regarding whether they could feasibly blow two trails up top at the same rate they had one going on willoughby along with the terrain park down below. My conjecture was not that they didn't choose the terrain park (which obviously they did), but was it forced on them because they only could do it that way with the compressor capacity they decided to run with.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm certainly happy that Q Burke appreciates the need to make snow on the training hill.  BMA is a vital partner to the mountain.  But the hill is also used for schools such as St. Johnsbury Academy and Lyndon Institute.  I believe Dartmouth also trains on the hill from time to time.

At least as far as the St. Johnsbury Academy and Lyndon Institute are concerned, Q Burke seems to be putting their money where their mouth is when they say that they value relationships with the local community.  Those skiers buy passes, but to offer the training hill is a tradition that has for many years bonded the local community with Burke.  I hope that this partnership  lasts for years to come.

While I don't like the idea of the public and the racers being squeezed onto the training hill if no other route down the mountain is available, I applaud Q Burke for blowing snow on the training hill since it is vital to the schools, and numerous local children, that make use of it.  

It's a great partnership in that the local schools are allowed use of the training hill, and many of the local students that ski on it will go on to be good paying customers at Burke for many years to come.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

The racing programs SAVED the mountain.  Yes, MULTIPLE schools train there (BMA, LI, SJA, UVM, Dartmouth, etc).  I think that getting the Poma going is crucial.  In terms of paying customers, they always worked hard to get some other routes open so that the racers had their own area.  That is a safety thing.  Anyone with an ounce of ski industry experience would know that immediately.  But we are dealing with the Keystone Cops here unfortunately.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The racing programs SAVED the mountain.  Yes, MULTIPLE schools train there (BMA, LI, SJA, UVM, Dartmouth, etc).  I think that getting the Poma going is crucial.  In terms of paying customers, they always worked hard to get some other routes open so that the racers had their own area.  That is a safety thing.  Anyone with an ounce of ski industry experience would know that immediately.  But we are dealing with the Keystone Cops here unfortunately.


I've seen tons of parents and family members that wind up spending money to ski at Q Burke because their children are involved in racing there.  Many of these parents have either gotten back into skiing after many years away, or would have spent their money at other mountains.  So it definitely appears to be a win-win relationship between Q Burke and the various schools that use the training hill.

I'm just thankful that Q Burke doesn't try to milk the cow to death by charging local schools for use of the training hill.  Not that I ever imagined that they would do so.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've seen tons of parents and family members that wind up spending money to ski at Q Burke because their children are involved in racing there.  Many of these parents have either gotten back into skiing after many years away, or would have spent their money at other mountains.  So it definitely appears to be a win-win relationship between Q Burke and the various schools that use the training hill.
> 
> I'm just thankful that Q Burke doesn't try to milk the cow to death by charging local schools for use of the training hill.  Not that I ever imagined that they would do so.



I believe that they do charge a fee for training time.  That's pretty standard.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I believe that they do charge a fee for training time.  That's pretty standard.



My friend at a local high school said they hadn't.  But that conversation was about a year ago.  Perhaps I misunderstood.   


.


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## freeski (Feb 12, 2015)

Last night on WBZ Boston radio there was a Burke add. When they use the new name Q-Burke it just sounds so stupid. Who would have an ego big enough to think they are justified in putting their initial in front of a mountains name? I will never get over this. I just don't understand.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

freeski said:


> Last night on WBZ Boston radio there was a Burke add. When they use the new name Q-Burke it just sounds so stupid. Who would have an ego big enough to think they are justified in putting their initial in front of a mountains name? I will never get over this. I just don't understand.


This issue came up at the passholder meeting while Stenger was speaking.  He responded that it's the mountain that matters and the name isn't going to define the skiing experience.  While I understand that the issue is perhaps more complicated, Stenger definitely has a point.  I don't blame anyone for feeling passionate about the name, but I am personally willing to set that issue aside to focus on improvements to the skiing experience.  I'm also willing to base my pleasure or displeasure on what they do on the mountain rather than what they call it.  It's probably a waste of time to dwell on the naming issue at this point.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2015)

To me it's more than a name.  The change to Q is symbolic of Arys overall attitude towards the community and Burke partners like KT and BMA.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> To me it's more than a name.  The change to Q is symbolic of Arys overall attitude towards the community and Burke partners like KT and BMA.


Don't get me wrong.  I will most certainly form opinions based on what actually happens with the community and partner relationships.  Those are very important, especially to a mountain like Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

I just got off the phone with my contact at one of the local high schools.  Apparently things are changing rapidly as far as the relationship between Q Burke and local schools is concerned.  Since he did not obtain this information first hand, I'll refrain from reporting it in case some of it is incorrect.


----------



## ablb (Feb 12, 2015)

Has anyone seen Cannon's new adds? Very clever.


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## JDMRoma (Feb 12, 2015)

ablb said:


> Has anyone seen Cannon's new adds? Very clever.



Yes Very Funny !!! Stay away its no fun there.........


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

ablb said:


> Has anyone seen Cannon's new adds? Very clever.



Very clever campaign.....

#cannonismine

http://www.cannonmt.com/vids.html

Clever because it reminds folks that Cannon is NH's mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My friend at a local high school said they hadn't.  But that conversation was about a year ago.  Perhaps I misunderstood.
> 
> 
> .



Well, I have now heard from multiple people what is going on here.  Apparently Q has sent the local high schools retroactive "invoices" for slope time...to the tune of $10,000 each.  Before there was any uproar, Mr. Stenger stepped in and reversed that, but Q has said he will bill folks next year.  One high school, my alma mater, is considering alternative venues...including the Lyndon Outing Club (and adding snowmaking to it).  

There you have it.  Complete assholes.  

I hope that folks can give Q some more constructive feedback so that he changes his mind and stops burning bridges.


----------



## River19 (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I have now heard from multiple people what is going on here.  Apparently Q has sent the local high schools retroactive "invoices" for slope time...to the tune of $10,000 each.  Before there was any uproar, Mr. Stenger stepped in and reversed that, but Q has said he will bill folks next year.  One high school, my alma mater, is considering alternative venues...including the Lyndon Outing Club (and adding snowmaking to it).
> 
> There you have it.  Complete assholes.
> 
> I hope that folks can give Q some more constructive feedback so that he changes his mind and stops burning bridges.




Wow.  That guy never ceases to amaze me.......I've never seen someone jump from one avoidable pile of shit to another so consistently.  It's like he runs to conflict for sport.....


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 12, 2015)

Why, why, why doesn't that surprise me? Screw it, let him burn all the bridges and go bankrupt, then the place can be had for fire-sale pricing. It sure would make a nice community run resort.

I'm guessing he tried to bill them without having a contract with the schools that notified them that use of the mountain wasn't free?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

River19 said:


> Wow.  That guy never ceases to amaze me.......I've never seen someone jump from one avoidable pile of shit to another so consistently.  It's like he runs to conflict for sport.....



I think that the idea that he has run out many employees in an effort to rehire folks later on to justify the EB-5 funding might logically explain what has otherwise been irrational action.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2015)

Why would anyone go work for him other than a lack of transportation?   I'd commute to Jay or Cannon rather than dealing with his BS.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the idea that he has run out many employees in an effort to rehire folks later on to justify the EB-5 funding might logically explain what has otherwise been irrational action.



Hopefully, the powers that be in charge of the program are smart enough not to include "prior existing, but unfilled posistions" and only count newly created jobs.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I have now heard from multiple people what is going on here.  Apparently Q has sent the local high schools retroactive "invoices" for slope time...to the tune of $10,000 each.  Before there was any uproar, Mr. Stenger stepped in and reversed that, but Q has said he will bill folks next year.  One high school, my alma mater, is considering alternative venues...including the Lyndon Outing Club (and adding snowmaking to it).
> 
> There you have it.  Complete assholes.
> 
> I hope that folks can give Q some more constructive feedback so that he changes his mind and stops burning bridges.


Ugh.  Just when I was getting used to the benefits of being positive.  Hopefully this will sort itself out soon.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 12, 2015)

Once again...

"One Aww Shitt, takes away five Attaboys!"


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 12, 2015)

ABC just had a report on EB5 corruption and how it maybe being used by spies and terrorist to get into this country.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ugh.  Just when I was getting used to the benefits of being positive.  Hopefully this will sort itself out soon.



I know, everyone was doing so well. Were having constructive discussions and everything. Then...


----------



## WWF-VT (Feb 12, 2015)

freeski said:


> Last night on WBZ Boston radio there was a Burke add. When they use the new name Q-Burke it just sounds so stupid. Who would have an ego big enough to think they are justified in putting their initial in front of a mountains name? I will never get over this. I just don't understand.



I've got no skin in ths game,  but think it's just stupid to call the place Q Burke.  Burke barely had any name recognition in the Boston area and to change the name has to be one of the dumber things any owners could do.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 12, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> I've got no skin in ths game,  but think it's just stupid to call the place Q Burke.  Burke barely had any name recognition in the Boston area and to change the name has to be one of the dumber things any owners could do.



But now people are noticing the strange name and want to find out more! Right?


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 12, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> But now people are noticing the strange name and want to find out more! Right?


The answer to that would be NO !


----------



## ablb (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Very clever campaign.....
> 
> #cannonismine
> 
> ...



I think there is a great opportunity for both Cannon and the Outing Club.  20+ years I've skied at Burke and I've been to Cannon twice this year and for first time went to Outing Club.  Its a great alternative for families. Cannon great mountain esp with Mittersal.  The vibe reminds me of Burke in the 90s. Very friendly


----------



## River19 (Feb 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the idea that he has run out many employees in an effort to rehire folks later on to justify the EB-5 funding might logically explain what has otherwise been irrational action.



To an extent maybe, however, you can downsize and swim upstream without standing under the bridge to every community asset/tie linked to the mountain with a giant eff-u blowtorch.  Seriously, it doesn't have to be this hard.....

Companies time reductions in force strategically with earnings reports etc. every year......and explain it very easily, I don't buy that pissing on the community partners is in any way tied to window dressing for EB-5......heck as an investor, Chinese or otherwise I would want to know the community is 110% behind the mountain and new management.


----------



## ablb (Feb 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ugh.  Just when I was getting used to the benefits of being positive.  Hopefully this will sort itself out soon.



I too, heard this about retro invoicing. My takeaway is that it is indicative of a disconcerting pattern (the KTA debacle).


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 12, 2015)




----------



## WWF-VT (Feb 12, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> But now people are noticing the strange name and want to find out more! Right?



No...they think it must be in *Q*uebec and don't want to get a Passport and learn to speak French to go skiing


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2015)

Help eliminate the Q.  Not the person (yet), just the Q in the name. Send an email expressing your feelings.  I have.


----------



## Edd (Feb 12, 2015)

"From the Donald Trump school of marketing..."

That was a recent quote in Ski Magazine on the name change.


----------



## River19 (Feb 13, 2015)

Edd said:


> "From the Donald Trump school of marketing..."
> 
> That was a recent quote in Ski Magazine on the name change.



So I guess we should get ready for the grand opening of the Q Tower Hotel......


----------



## mbedle (Feb 14, 2015)

Didn't someone say that the local schools always paid to use the facilities at Burke? Trailboss mentioned that Burke sent retroactive invoices to the schools that got everyone upset. If they alway paid for training time, why would they be upset getting a retro bill? Was it that the bill was significantly higher than previous years? Or was it that they got away with using the facilities for the past couple of years without paying and are pissed that Burke finally got around to figuring that out?


----------



## whiskey jack (Feb 14, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> The answer to that would be NO !



Not too sure about that, I am tracking that a lot of people are chattering about the Mountain. More than in the past.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 14, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Not too sure about that, I am tracking that a lot of people are chattering about the Mountain. More than in the past.


That is true, but, at least in my experience over the past two years, it has been overwhelmingly negative. Even if Ary's plan proves successful he has alienated a large segment of the mountain base and the community - a feat not easily undone in spite of front men/protectors like Bill and Bill.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2015)

Which trail is the banked slalom ski race on this weekend?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 14, 2015)

Looks like the last stretch of Lower Dipper.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Looks like the last stretch of Lower Dipper.


I really wish that they wouldn't take up a trail like the Dippers on a holiday weekend.


----------



## faQ (Feb 14, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Didn't someone say that the local schools always paid to use the facilities at Burke? Trailboss mentioned that Burke sent retroactive invoices to the schools that got everyone upset. If they alway paid for training time, why would they be upset getting a retro bill? Was it that the bill was significantly higher than previous years? Or was it that they got away with using the facilities for the past couple of years without paying and are pissed that Burke finally got around to figuring that out?



I was wondering about this also. Can someone elaborate?  Were they given free tix initially/ discounted and then invoiced?  What services were they invoiced for?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> I was wondering about this also. Can someone elaborate?  Were they given free tix initially/ discounted and then invoiced?  What services were they invoiced for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I've been told that the agreement was no fee but the teams all bought season passes.  Ary changed his mind. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I really wish that they wouldn't take up a trail like the Dippers on a holiday weekend.



It is just the last stretch, below the cut-over to Open Slope that most people use to get back to the lift anyway. IMHO not much of a hindrance to skier traffic.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It is just the last stretch, below the cut-over to Open Slope that most people use to get back to the lift anyway. IMHO not much of a hindrance to skier traffic.


If that's all they are using that's not bad.


----------



## Edd (Feb 16, 2015)

I was going through some old TRs and ran across this one of my first trip to Burke. Wish there were pics.  Great memory. 

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=70393


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2015)

Proofreading is always a good thing....because what is a "Come Series"?  



			
				Q Marketing said:
			
		

> Feb 28:  Come Series Stop #7, 9-11pm in Kingdom Cafe; Vermont based comedian Tony Bates and Jim Colliton.



From their Email today.  Freudian slip perhaps?!


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2015)

Has Burke made any snow in the past few weeks?  Is the river still too low?  


.


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## burski (Feb 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Has Burke made any snow in the past few weeks?  Is the river still too low?
> 
> 
> .




I am pretty sure they have not, with the weather, conditions have been good so there is really no need.  They typically don't make any snow after end of January and very few resort make snow after Feb vacation week.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2015)

If I were a pass holder, I would not want them to have made snow the past few weeks.  It's wasted money that could be spent on system upgrades in the summer.  I recognize that might not happen, but in theory it could.  

No where that I've skied the past four weeks or so has been making snow.  Last place I saw it was Cannon and that was prior to this weather pattern.  Only place I've really heard about making much snow is Killington on Superstar, which is to be expected.  I'm sure other places have, but minimally.  A year like this one, you bank from Mother Nature as much as you can.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2015)

Agreed.  The reason I asked, however, is that they intimated that they would blow snow late at the Passholders meeting.  


.


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## Boardguy (Feb 22, 2015)

So you are just trolling.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2015)

Boardguy said:


> So you are just trolling.



No.  I was following up on a matter that I care quite a bit about - snowmaking and the accuracy of statements made during the meeting.  


.


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## Boardguy (Feb 22, 2015)

Of course you weren't. Your posts frequently speak of you being a local, what you heard on the street, how everyone in Burke feels about things and what you know to be true from your sources.  BUT you need to post on an internet board to find out if Burke has made snow in the past few weeks. Can't find out from your local contacts? Call the mountain perhaps. Trolls gonna troll. Granted I have been unable to make it up there the past two weekends but the last time I was there the snow was great and my relatives are up there this weekend and state that conditions are still good. I agree with deadheadskier and doubt that the majority of ski areas in NE are making snow. In my time there no owner has blown snow when they did not need it and in many instances did not blow snow when they did. Particularly after the middle of Jan when the compressors were usually returned.  Now it is after vacation week too, I am thinking most areas are in "it is what it is mode" at this point in the season.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2015)

Where do you get off thinking that I was being judgmental one way or the other?  If you had the slightest amount of intelligence and understood what I said above and you would see that I wasn't being judgmental at all.  

Take a deep freaking breath already.  Sheesh.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 22, 2015)

I don't know which is worse: your habitual intent to incite or your pushbacks veiled by not me's and it's a free and open internet. ...


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I don't know which is worse: your habitual intent to incite or your pushbacks veiled by not me's and it's a free and open internet. ...


If you look at my posts recently you will see that I've done the opposite - I've refrained from doing anything to incite.  Recently I've been the one supporting the mountain and taking a wait and see attitude.  That's why I got offended when someone tried to make something out of nothing when I asked a mere factual question and made it clear in a subsequent post that I had no problem with how they were handling things.  

I'll tell you when I'm not happy.  Trust me.  I just get annoyed when people don't actually read what I have written and say something that is not correct based on that reason alone.  You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.


----------



## Masskier (Feb 22, 2015)

I skied 4 of the past 6 days.  Conditions continue to be fantastic, powder, packed powder, and more powder.  All in all it was a great week at the mountain. from the comedy show last Saturday to the fireworks on Friday.  A lot of people were around but the days that were real cold kept many from skiing.  However the warmer days (Thursday in particular) was busy by Burke standards.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2015)

So, to be fair, someone who is a new passholder to Burke may not know that, historically, Burke does not make much (if any) snow in February.  The years I skied there they would go into mid or late January depending on the weather.  Now if they said that they were going to keep blowing snow this season I'd be interested in knowing why considering that reports are that the snow is there.  

And, FWIW, we are blowing snow at Snowbird :roll:  It's that grim out here.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I skied 4 of the past 6 days.  Conditions continue to be fantastic, *powder, packed powder, and more powder. *



Now we know who writes the conditions reports.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Now we know who writes the conditions reports.



Yes, that Packed Powder over Powder is mighty tasty!  :lol:


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## faQ (Feb 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> No.  I was following up on a matter that I care quite a bit about - snowmaking and the accuracy of statements made during the meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> .



Let's assume they meant they would keep making snow if they had too, which they don't. 


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2015)

faQ said:


> Let's assume they meant they would keep making snow if they had too, which they don't.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I was not there, but that explanation makes sense.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I was not there, but that explanation makes sense.


Agreed.  I guess my preference, therefore, would be to have the early ability to blow snow - but it's really a crap shoot.  In other years February could require some serious refreshing of trail surfaces.  In a perfect world you can do both.


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## Masskier (Feb 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So, to be fair, someone who is a new passholder to Burke may not know that, historically, Burke does not make much (if any) snow in February.  The years I skied there they would go into mid or late January depending on the weather.  Now if they said that they were going to keep blowing snow this season I'd be interested in knowing why considering that reports are that the snow is there.
> 
> And, FWIW, we are blowing snow at Snowbird :roll:  It's that grim out here.



Time to make a trip back east??  We haven't had a winter like this in a long time.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Time to make a trip back east??  We haven't had a winter like this in a long time.



Perhaps one is in the works....


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## the original trailboss (Feb 24, 2015)

Lots of new, interesting deals now that the holiday period is over, including Silver Streaker Days on Tuesday and Thursday, and, a 3-for-1 Wednesday special. Conditions are great but Mother Nature needs to kick in a little warmth here.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 24, 2015)

After having frequented the southern Vermont resorts and NH resorts over the last few years, I fully get the QBurke investment hypothesis. It will be discovered, it's just a matter of time. There are so many inferior skiing experiences in VT/NH where you have to wait in line, whether it's the liftline, the parking lot line, the dinner line, etc. that are only a 30-1:30 hour drive closer to the big cities. We are talking like big city traffic, for not so good skiing experiences. Okemo comes to mind. With some investment in services and better management it will happen, even with many of you deep down inside wanting to see it fail.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2015)

I don't think anyone wants to see Burke fail.  

What they do want to see is an investment in services and better management like you said.  Both of these have gotten worse since the new regime's arrival.  Less snowmaking and understaffed operations at times shows a lesser investment in services.  Bonehead decisions by management across all four seasons not exactly being the better management Burke skiers want.  

 The "grand plan" for Burke is appropriate.  The execution of even the most basic steps of that plan has been poor.  When management is approached regarding that reality, they dig their heels in and push back against the feedback.     

That is reality.  That's not people wanting to see it fail.


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## SkiRaceParent (Feb 24, 2015)

It was a little tongue and cheek on the fail point, just an editorial comment about how far people take the criticism. As mainly an observer to comments on here in the last couple months, it does feel that way sometimes (prompt incoming wave of Love: 'I love Burke it's home posts') and I just wanted to comment that from a market perspective (not execution) I totally get it, the more I travel to oversubscribed crappier mountains and venues.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> After having frequented the southern Vermont resorts and NH resorts over the last few years, I fully get the QBurke investment hypothesis. It will be discovered, it's just a matter of time. There are so many inferior skiing experiences in VT/NH where you have to wait in line, whether it's the liftline, the parking lot line, the dinner line, etc. that are only a 30-1:30 hour drive closer to the big cities. We are talking like big city traffic, for not so good skiing experiences. Okemo comes to mind. With some investment in services and better management it will happen, even with many of you deep down inside wanting to see it fail.



That has been the thought for probably 30 years or so....it will be discovered eventually.  Will it?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think anyone wants to see Burke fail.
> 
> What they do want to see is an investment in services and better management like you said.  Both of these have gotten worse since the new regime's arrival.  Less snowmaking and understaffed operations at times shows a lesser investment in services.  Bonehead decisions by management across all four seasons not exactly being the better management Burke skiers want.
> 
> ...



Spot on.  Nothing more to add.


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## River19 (Feb 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think anyone wants to see Burke fail.
> 
> What they do want to see is an investment in services and better management like you said.  Both of these have gotten worse since the new regime's arrival.  Less snowmaking and understaffed operations at times shows a lesser investment in services.  Bonehead decisions by management across all four seasons not exactly being the better management Burke skiers want.
> 
> ...



This is exactly my position on Burke as well; couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2015)

Burke was great today. The groomers were fast and the most carvable I have ever skied on. Not a piece of ice on any of them (might be because there wasn't much snow making done. We were flying today. The woods were also in great shape. Much better than Loon's were on Sunday right after they got 7 inches or so. When we got there it was about 17 below zero and I was impressed that the construction crew was out there putting walls up.


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## Big Wave Dave (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think anyone wants to see Burke fail.
> 
> What they do want to see is an investment in services and better management like you said.  Both of these have gotten worse since the new regime's arrival.  Less snowmaking and understaffed operations at times shows a lesser investment in services.  Bonehead decisions by management across all four seasons not exactly being the better management Burke skiers want.
> 
> ...



this comment ignores the forest throught the trees. For the last 20 years the knock on Burke has been no slopeside beds. Now their will be a hotel that is, much against the wide array of prior comments on this thread, on time and on track. So to say they have messed up even the most basic steps is just not true. Lots of missteps and unneccessary strife, but clearly they are not batting zero.

I would also note, as someone who occasionally checks this thread for good information, no one really seems to care about the Q Burke name outside of the internet or maybe the NEK proper. Folks I know who rent condo's have had a great year with many repeat clients, and skiier visits themselves are up nicely- if the temperatures up here ever went above 10 I bet they would be up even more.

and I agree with SkiRaceParents logic. Loon is 50 minutes south of Burke and pretty much always an inferior ski product, by a wide margin. If you dont think that Burke with a little more infrastructure can pull 5-10% of the Ski 93 crowd (include Bretton Woods in that) away and a bit further north then your crazy.  I would argue this has already started, just based on how much more development there is at burke now than their ever was in the way of local beds (whether they be Bearpath, the Kirby cabins, townhouses at base of access road, 2 lodges in East Burke, I could go on....)

also for what its worth, i would argue that Burke is the prettiest ski experience in the East. Worth so much to me and others too I think and the Q's cant screw that up. Maybe Camden Sno Bowl gives it a run for its money.  

One other thought on my ramble here- I read a few pages back about people speculating how an aquatics and tennis center would be appealing to Chinese investors- I think this is spot on- and, considering the very frequuent usage of the letter Q (sound really) in the Chinese language, I would apply the same logic here. Team Quiros and Stenger knows who their audience is and I think that is why they have been so deaf to complaints about what all of us think is arrogance. Q implies luck in Cantonese.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

From a risk management standpoint I think they should diversify away from this laser-focus on Chinese investors.


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## xwhaler (Feb 27, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> also for what its worth, i would argue that Burke is the prettiest ski experience in the East. Worth so much to me and others too I think and the Q's cant screw that up. Maybe Camden Sno Bowl gives it a run for its money.



Not to derail the thread but I can think of 5 more scenic ski areas off the top of my head w/o even thinking about it. 
I like Burke and their scenery is nice but to say its the best in the East is a stretch IMHO. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

My quick top 5:
Saddleback (high alpine peaks + huge lakes is incredible)
Gunstock (not the best ski experience but the views rock)
Magic (always liked how you can see Bromley and Stratton so close)
Owls Head (the day I visited it was pretty overcast but I've seen enough pictures that paint the picture)
Wildcat (needs no explanation)


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this comment ignores the forest throught the trees. For the last 20 years the knock on Burke has been no slopeside beds. Now their will be a hotel that is, much against the wide array of prior comments on this thread, on time and on track. So to say they have messed up even the most basic steps is just not true. Lots of missteps and unneccessary strife, but clearly they are not batting zero.
> 
> .



Did you choose to ignore where I said the grand plan is sound?   I agree the hotel makes perfect sense.  
And you are mistaken, it is the current management/ownership who is only looking at the forrest and not the trees.  All they see is the big shiny end result and repeatedly ignore the basics/trees that is required to get there.

The trees would be things like making snow in time for the holidays  (particularly unacceptable when the equipment needed can be rented) and the owner not acting like a petulant child on Facebook anytime someone offers negative feedback.  Even more than that is not burning down the numerous great trees that were already there.......ousting long time talented employees, messing with KT, BMA and other local schools and the owner talking trash in his bar about them.

They have a great plan and everyone wants them to succeed, but they can build the Shangri La hotel at the base and it will fail if they don't nurture the trees.  

Burke 100% dodged a bullet this winter with the snow.  You say business would be even better with warmer temps which is true.  However if they didn't get the many feet of natural snow they got, the season would have been an unmitigated disaster with how little snow they made.  Fact, not opinion.

Hopefully they get lucky again next year


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2015)

The Q has always been for Quiros. Nothing more. I think the Chinese connection is pure coincidence. Ary has repeatedly said it's for their name.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Did you choose to ignore where I said the grand plan is sound?   I agree the hotel makes perfect sense.
> And you are mistaken, it is the current management/ownership who is only looking at the forrest and not the trees.  All they see is the big shiny end result and repeatedly ignore the basics/trees that is required to get there.
> 
> The trees would be things like making snow in time for the holidays  (particularly unacceptable when the equipment needed can be rented) and the owner not acting like a petulant child on Facebook anytime someone offers negative feedback.  Even more than that is not burning down the numerous great trees that were already there.......ousting long time talented employees, messing with KT, BMA and other local schools and the owner talking trash in his bar about them.
> ...



+1


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## VTKilarney (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't think anyone on this forum has criticized the decision to add a hotel.  It is a VERY needed addition.  

As for other small-scale lodging options cropping up, we will never know how much of this has to do with Kingdom Trails and how much has to do with Burke.  But who cares.  The area has always needed more beds.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2015)

What is what looks like to be an old hotel in dowtown Lyndonville that is now apartments?

It's too bad the town doesn't have a nice old Inn in the center.  I'm thinking a Green Mountain Inn type property.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is what looks like to be an old hotel in dowtown Lyndonville that is now apartments?
> 
> It's too bad the town doesn't have a nice old Inn in the center.  I'm thinking a Green Mountain Inn type property.



That's the Darling Inn. Used to be a hotel; now senior housing.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2015)

And for those who were wondering, Q Burke Vermont is a place on Earth...









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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2015)

They had plenty of QBurke merchandise on hand....and not much of it selling.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> They had plenty of QBurke merchandise on hand....and not much of it selling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



When I was at the mountain dew vertical challenge at BURKE they had this poster up and were giving away a vacation at Smugglers Notch


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## ablb (Feb 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> They had plenty of QBurke merchandise on hand....and not much of it selling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Pure genius, East Burke Sports has some very nice "Burke Mountain" hoodies for anyone looking for Q-less swag.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 28, 2015)

ablb said:


> Pure genius, East Burke Sports has some very nice "Burke Mountain" hoodies for anyone looking for Q-less swag.



Is that the one that says "Burke Mountain" with a picture of the mountain and the town in the shadow?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 28, 2015)

Very nice.....




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## thetrailboss (Feb 28, 2015)

ablb said:


> Pure genius, East Burke Sports has some very nice "Burke Mountain" hoodies for anyone looking for Q-less swag.



How much?


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## ablb (Mar 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> How much?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not sure. I received as gift.


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## Edd (Mar 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And for those who were wondering, Q Burke Vermont is a place on Earth...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seriously, yuck. I should snag something without the Q soon.


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## ablb (Mar 1, 2015)

40.00


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

ablb said:


> 40.00



Just called and he said $45.  Split the difference...$42.50


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

So some folks have probably figured out that I am in the NEK for a visit to family and friends.  I've skied at Burke the last two days and have some general observations (full TR's coming in the future).  

First the conditions are SUPERB to say the least.  I think it is skiing as well if not better than the famous 2007-2008 season.  Things are well covered and grooming is good.  Very little ice.  Runs not groomed are scratchy, but not icy.  So they are very lucky in that regard.  

The vibe at the mountain is sterile.  Where employees were once chatty and had character they are now replaced with deadpan lifties and staff.  I only recognized three people who were still working there.  That says something.  

The hotel is moving along.  Framing is being completed.  They were working yesterday. 

MidBurke is dead.  It seems so sad to see the Bear Den not open until 11am and only three people working there on a busy Saturday.  They used to have it open in the mornings with coffee and folks would start their day there.  

In terms of crowds, it looked like a weekday yesterday--lots of empty spots in the lower lot.  

The Mid-Burke Express is a huge gamechanger.  I had not skied there since it was completed.  What is even more surprising is the impact it is having on traffic.  While it is, at most, a few hundred feet from the Willoughby, nearly ALL the ski traffic was going east the last two days.  We'd ski under the Willoughby Quad and over towards Willoughby to find NOBODY at ALL, almost untracked grooming, and plenty of cover.  It looked like a NELSAP area.  Really spooky.  Considering that everyone used to ride that lift, and ski under it, seeing nobody was very strange.  Seeing the Willoughby sitting idle seemed like a waste, but lines were not really an issue at all.  

The Poma is still chugging along.  They repainted the base and most of the towers.  It looks nice.  BMA is raising money for it by naming the Poma sticks.  It seems that BMA is running/controlling its operations.  It was closed to the public on Friday and most of Saturday.  I showed up Saturday afternoon and was able to get on it but promised not to get in the way of the course and not to tell anyone.  

The level of anger at Little Q is palpable.  Folks were commenting a lot about him and the situation.  I have not seen him.  I saw his new GM--complete with GI hair cut--walking around quietly.  I don't recognize any of the employees who remain.  As said, EBS is selling hoodies with the old Burke logo, the mountain, and the town in its shadow (minus the Q) and they are selling like crazy.  It is a neat logo....perhaps with some symbolism and a commentary on the situation.  This is not the first time that a local store has made shirts/gear commenting on the predicament of the mountain.  In 1990 the Village Sport Shop made some shirts that said, "Just Ski It: Nobody Owns It! Burke 1990"

Speaking of merchandise, the store is COMPLETELY full of Q-Burke merchandise--hats, shirts (poor quality), jackets, etc.  They had a few older items with the "True North" logo in between the Q stuff.  When asking about the price, the Q pins were $7.95 and the old style pin was $4.00.  FWIW they would almost ALWAYS run out of logo stuff by the end of January and certainly after President's Week.  They had probably 100 hats with the Q logo and nearly all the shirts and other items.

Yesterday was also the first day I can recall when my group and I nearly got mowed over several times by BMA racers...and on general trails.  I was a bit surprised as to how fast some folks were skiing near very busy (and well known) intersections.  

So the skiing is awesome, the facilities are nice, but it feels like skiing in a cemetery.


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## DJAK (Mar 1, 2015)

They carried and sold through STE previously. Now carried locally and of course at their big brother. We'll ping again this spring for next year.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

DJAK said:


> They carried and sold through STE previously. Now carried locally and of course at their big brother. We'll ping again this spring for next year.



?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2015)

Ski the east logo wear.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ski the east logo wear.



Ok, but what does that have to do with Burke hoodies? Did they make them?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2015)

I think what he is saying is that Burke used to carry STE stuff last season and Jay still does implying that Ary has gone in a different direction in other ways besides just his Q wear.   He went away from a popular product (STE) that sold out to a lame product (Q wear) that's not selling as you observed.


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## ablb (Mar 1, 2015)

Today was busy by Burke standards. At 10 no parking at mid lodge. There was a race today. Conditions are awesome.  Zollie and Jack were manning the lift with smiles and their usual good humor. Becky was tending bar in bears Den and it was packed. Lots of day passes.  Nice ski day


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

ablb said:


> Today was busy by Burke standards. At 10 no parking at mid lodge. There was a race today. Conditions are awesome.  Zollie and Jack were manning the lift with smiles and their usual good humor. Becky was tending bar in bears Den and it was packed. Lots of day passes.  Nice ski day



Warmer, Race Day, and $25 afternoon = busy.


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## ablb (Mar 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Warmer, Race Day, and $25 afternoon = busy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Agreed. Lots of locals.


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## freeski (Mar 1, 2015)

I think a *Q Sucks* T-shirt could be a big seller in the NEK.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 1, 2015)

Today and yesterday were the busiest days I have seen this season.


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

freeski said:


> I think a *Q Sucks* T-shirt could be a big seller in the NEK.



Well, I heard that last season someone hiked up the mountain and spray painted, "FUCK Q" in the snow.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 1, 2015)

Burke is aggressively discounting tickets.  They just sent out an email offering $35 tickets Mon-Fri this week.  This is after some substantial promotions that started last week, such as 3-for-1 Wednesdays.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke is aggressively discounting tickets.  They just sent out an email offering $35 tickets Mon-Fri this week.  This is after some substantial promotions that started that week, such as 3-for-1 Wednesdays.



That's normal. Skier visits really fall off after Presidents Week even though conditions are primo. It's a good time to ski if one is looking for deals.

And I didn't get that email. Already got my ticket for less. Phew.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2015)

IMO, most years March is the best ski month of the season in New England.


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## Not Sure (Mar 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> IMO, most years March is the best ski month of the season in New England.



Yup , Yup !


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## whiskey jack (Mar 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The Poma is still chugging along.  They repainted the base and most of the towers.  It looks nice.  BMA is raising money for it by naming the Poma sticks.  It seems that BMA is running/controlling its operations.  It was closed to the public on Friday and most of Saturday.  I showed up Saturday afternoon and was able to get on it but promised not to get in the way of the course and not to tell anyone.
> 
> I have heard that the Poma is maintained by Q Burke. The new shack at the top, and the new deck and wall at the bottom were done by the resort.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > The Poma is still chugging along.  They repainted the base and most of the towers.  It looks nice.  BMA is raising money for it by naming the Poma sticks.  It seems that BMA is running/controlling its operations.  It was closed to the public on Friday and most of Saturday.  I showed up Saturday afternoon and was able to get on it but promised not to get in the way of the course and not to tell anyone.
> ...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

Is there any talk about bringing RFID readers to Burke?  They seem to work well enough at Jay Peak.  I really like the ability to keep my pass in my pocket.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

You want the mountain to invest probably well north of $100K for an RFID system when you could just clip your pass to the outside of your jacket or buy an arm band holder?


and I don't think they work well at Jay Peak at all.  Every time I've visited Jay since they went in, I see people struggle with the reader (especially short children) resulting in the line getting backed up and empty chairs going up.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You want the mountain to invest probably well north of $100K for an RFID system when you could just clip your pass to the outside of your jacket or buy an arm band holder?
> 
> 
> and I don't think they work well at Jay Peak at all.  Every time I've visited Jay since they went in, I see people struggle with the reader (especially short children) resulting in the line getting backed up and empty chairs going up.



I guess at that price... there are a lot of other places that I'd like to see the money spent.  That's much more than I was thinking it would cost.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2015)

RFID has its benefits and drawbacks. 


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You want the mountain to invest probably well north of $100K for an RFID system when you could just clip your pass to the outside of your jacket or buy an arm band holder?
> 
> 
> and I don't think they work well at Jay Peak at all.  Every time I've visited Jay since they went in, I see people struggle with the reader (especially short children) resulting in the line getting backed up and empty chairs going up.



I agree the RFID is a waste. They still have to have a guy sitting there to correct issues. I had to do a jig every time to get through - squat, move back and forth for the thing to read. It was in a pocket all by itself at stomach level. My kid had an issue a few times as well as did a lot of other people.

I still don't understand the Burke scanner guy either when there are only 50 people skiing. Why scan every time? Who cares how many runs I take?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

Ary does.  Take too many runs in a day and he will send out a bill and claim your lift ticket purchase didn't cover the expenses of your trail usage.  Just ask KT or the local schools.


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## Edd (Mar 2, 2015)

I like the RFID. I had no issues at Stowe recently. I put the card in a pocket on my forearm and it worked well.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

I guess I've been lucky with RFID.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 2, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> I still don't understand the Burke scanner guy either when there are only 50 people skiing. Why scan every time? Who cares how many runs I take?



If he doesn't stay busy scanning, Ary will let him go too!


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

When you figure that they have at least two people being paid to scan tickets all day, every day, the cost of an RFID system doesn't seem so bad.  It would pay for itself in 5 years or so.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

It doesn't do away with a lift ticket checker.  It might reduce staff some, but not a lot.  As mentioned, at Jay they have people there helping deal with guests who have a problem with the checker.  

Again, what's so hard about buying a clip to attach your pass to the outside of your clothing?   That's some serious first world problems if you can't be bothered to take your pass out of your pocket, won't employ the many available inexpensive solutions and are relying on the mountain to solve your problem.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It doesn't do away with a lift ticket checker.  It might reduce staff some, but not a lot.  As mentioned, at Jay they have people there helping deal with guests who have a problem with the checker.
> 
> Again, what's so hard about buying a clip to attach your pass to the outside of your clothing?   That's some serious first world problems if you can't be bothered to take your pass out of your pocket, won't employ the many available inexpensive solutions and are relying on the mountain to solve your problem.


Uh... I have a clip.  A couple, actually.  Keeping your lift ticket in your pocket is a side-benefit.  What I really like about an RFID system is the ability to tailor tickets to all sorts of options. (e.g., A set number of rides, create-your-own time window, etc.)

 I've seen this done very nicely in Europe.  Jay Peak, on the other hand, hasn't really embraced this idea.


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Uh... I have a clip.  A couple, actually.  Keeping your lift ticket in your pocket is a side-benefit.  What I really like about an RFID system is the ability to tailor tickets to all sorts of options. (e.g., A set number of rides, create-your-own time window, etc.)
> 
> I've seen this done very nicely in Europe.  Jay Peak, on the other hand, hasn't really embraced this idea.



Nor has Stowe or Squaw or any place I have used them in the USA.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Uh... I have a clip.  A couple, actually.  Keeping your lift ticket in your pocket is a side-benefit.  What I really like about an RFID system is the ability to tailor tickets to all sorts of options. (e.g., A set number of rides, create-your-own time window, etc.)
> 
> I've seen this done very nicely in Europe.  Jay Peak, on the other hand, hasn't really embraced this idea.



Then why did you start the conversation by saying you wanted RFID because you didn't want to take your pass out of your pocket??

And I think it would be great for what you are suggesting, but skiing culture is so much different in Europe.  People are fine with taking a run or two and then a two hour lunch and maybe a run or two more.  You've got massive complexes where a ski day might be just take a couple of lifts and runs to go hang out in another village in another valley. Here in the state's it's go, go, go and get in as much vert and runs as you can.  Because of that, a resort is going to want to force people into a full day rate.  Hell, look at the "half day" rate.  At most places it's 75+% of a full day ticket cost.  Very little financial incentive to ski a shorter session.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2015)

I don't think that they have enough traffic to justify RFID.


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## trackbiker (Mar 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Today and yesterday were the busiest days I have seen this season.
> 
> 
> .



I was there on Saturday and felt like it was a weekday at most other mountains. Maybe a 5 minute wait at most lift line at the HSQ but the trails were empty. I didn't know that they ever groomed the East Bowl but it was the ROTD. Great snow and relatively empty so you could ski it fast. Last year it was rocks and pucker bush and the run out was bad. I found the the employees to be very friendly but can't believe that they can be profitable on the volume of skiers that were there on a sunny mid 20's Saturday. Conditions on all the trails were great. I do agree that the trail map could be improved.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2015)

trackbiker said:


> I was there on Saturday and felt like it was a weekday at most other mountains. Maybe a 5 minute wait at most lift line at the HSQ but the trails were empty. I didn't know that they ever groomed the East Bowl but it was the ROTD. Great snow and relatively empty so you could ski it fast. Last year it was rocks and pucker bush and the run out was bad. I found the the employees to be very friendly but can't believe that they can be profitable on the volume of skiers that were there on a sunny mid 20's Saturday. Conditions on all the trails were great. I do agree that the trail map could be improved.



EB skied very well all weekend.


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## mbedle (Mar 3, 2015)

I love the RFID tickets, use them at my local hill and also at Stowe during last month. Can't say that I saw any major issues with them (couple of kids having some problems). Are local hill also takes advantage of them but offering 4, 6 or 8 hour sessions and including 15 bucks worth of food on the 8 hour ticket.  Nice thing is the time interval starts at the first time you get on the lift.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

Another nice feature of RFID tickets is that the mountain can forward stats to ticket purchasers, such as number of runs taken, etc.  I know some mountains are already doing this.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

Sure, great.

  Why encourage that investment when the number 1 problem is snowmaking?   The number 2 problem is marketing.  No one has ever heard of Burke.   They'd get a much better ROI spending that money on a grand marketing campaign than some needless technology that can email stat geeks their skiing efforts for the day.

On the list of needs that Burke has that would bring in business, I'd put RFID somewhere out in a pasture beyond the tennis facilities.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

I said the same thing once you mentioned how much a system costs.  That doesn't mean that people can't wish.


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## River19 (Mar 3, 2015)

In summary......RFID is on the 2021 wish list.....

More immediate short term items require attention to properly support both the winter and summer seasons at Qbert


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## Big Wave Dave (Mar 3, 2015)

trackbiker said:


> I was there on Saturday and felt like it was a weekday at most other mountains. Maybe a 5 minute wait at most lift line at the HSQ but the trails were empty. I didn't know that they ever groomed the East Bowl but it was the ROTD. Great snow and relatively empty so you could ski it fast. Last year it was rocks and pucker bush and the run out was bad. I found the the employees to be very friendly but can't believe that they can be profitable on the volume of skiers that were there on a sunny mid 20's Saturday. Conditions on all the trails were great. I do agree that the trail map could be improved.



Burke has always had significantly less skiers per acre than other ski areas in Vermont. I bet someone on here knows this but I thought they were 50% less than the next closest "major" area in VT (excluding places like Lyndon Outing Club) in terms of skiers per acre. That to me is what makes it special. Not too many places where you can do run after run on consistent vertical/pitch and not even run into another skier. I am happy to sacrifice this a bit for longevity though!

I actually skied Burke on a weekend last weekend avoiding Quebec vacation at Jay and to me it felt like a good crowd- both Saturday and Sunday there were waits of a few minutes at the upper and lower quad when I went down below to join up with family. I consider Burke to be busy if all the chairs are filled. A 5 minute wait at Burke is jammed to me. Just goes to show you why i think Burke is ripe for picking ski visits away from the "urban" skiing over on Rt. 93!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

You know that Burke is busy when the singles line is being used... Such as this past weekend.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Very nice.....
> 
> View attachment 15961
> 
> ...



So I snagged one and love it. Very neat. They run a bit small and are $45. I bet they'd do a phone order for any Burke fans not in the area.




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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2015)

And $35 adult tix this week. I think it was $45 last week.


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

Here's an intersting encounter I had yesterday......

So I'm at a gas station in RI yesterday filling up the truck and a woman pulls in behind me, and she keeps looking over and catching my eye, and at first I thought maybe she thought I was attractive......then of course I realized that couldn't be true......finally she asks if I ride Kingdom Trails....and points to the KT sticker on my truck cap.

Evidently she lived in Burke for years, loves the area etc. and she asks me how the hotel and new onwership is doing on the mountain.......since I didn't know her or where she stood on the new ownership I played it down the middle to which she goes and I'm partially paraphrasing here:

"I've heard from all my family and friends up there that it is a total shit show and how 'the kid' is basically alienating everyone from BMA to KT to passholders etc.  I had family and friends that worked on the mountain all lose their jobs or quit dealing with the schizo management style.  She openly remarked that Ary can't run the Tamarack with a captive audence let alone a whole resort.......one day we're a steakhouse, then next a Mexican joint, but wait we're a tapas bar......hold on Mardis Gras.....so sad, it used to be such a great family mountain."

I thought the family mountain comment was probably spot on but also the major reason why change was needed and why the mountain has struggled in the past.

I just found the whole exchange interesting in its randomness and how once the bottle opened she went off and there was some obvious anger conveyed though her from her family.

So, I guess it is true, people all over New England are talking about Burke more.....some good, some not so good.

That being said, it is damn hard for any New England ski mountain to not have fantastic snow conditions and a good year at this point.  Mother nature and good conditions can really smooth over piss poor management and more localized issues.

Make of that exchange what you wish, I just thought it was worth sharing.....


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## faQ (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> Here's an intersting encounter I had yesterday......
> 
> So I'm at a gas station in RI yesterday filling up the truck and a woman pulls in behind me, and she keeps looking over and catching my eye, and at first I thought maybe she thought I was attractive......then of course I realized that couldn't be true......finally she asks if I ride Kingdom Trails....and points to the KT sticker on my truck cap.
> 
> ...



I got stopped in the parking lot by a couple guys from MA during Presidents Week and was asked "we've been wondering all day, what's up with the Q".  Without opinion, I said the owners last name starts with a Q.  Their response was "what a queen".


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> Here's an intersting encounter I had yesterday......
> 
> So I'm at a gas station in RI yesterday filling up the truck and a woman pulls in behind me, and she keeps looking over and catching my eye, and at first I thought maybe she thought I was attractive......then of course I realized that couldn't be true......finally she asks if I ride Kingdom Trails....and points to the KT sticker on my truck cap.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's unfortunate because as folks know that there was really no reason to burn bridges/change anything.  Burke's genuine nature is what the market craves.


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, it's unfortunate because as folks know that there was really no reason to burn bridges/change anything.  Burke's genuine nature is what the market craves.



The interesting thing is that the genuineness (is that a word?) has been tarnished to a certain extent at least as far as the Q goes.  I have detected this odd undertone with many of my out of state friends that frequent the area for KT and or the mountain in general.  The undertone is that they basically feel that giving the mountain any business is basically like they are betraying the real Burkies and the folks that have been steamrolled by Jr.  So they don't, they don't go to the Tamarack (can't say I have been in while either by choice), they don't ski there, and they don't plan on riding the bike park run by Q.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> The interesting thing is that the genuineness (is that a word?) has been tarnished to a certain extent at least as far as the Q goes.  I have detected this odd undertone with many of my out of state friends that frequent the area for KT and or the mountain in general.  The undertone is that they basically feel that giving the mountain any business is basically like they are betraying the real Burkies and the folks that have been steamrolled by Jr.  So they don't, they don't go to the Tamarack (can't say I have been in while either by choice), they don't ski there, and they don't plan on riding the bike park run by Q.



That's what I saw.  Folks just shrugged and said, "this too shall pass."  I was stunned as to just how much Q inventory they had in the store that was NOT selling.


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## JoeB-Z (Mar 4, 2015)

Underneath everything, this the hospitality business. When you are inhospitable in the hospitality business, you will eventually perish.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2015)

After following this thread since the beginning and making some comments I have some more thoughts. The people posting on here from the NEK seem to believe that the way the mountain was run before was the way to run the mountain. Unfortunately the mountain was failing the way it was run before. Changes needed to be made but that being said I don't think some of the changes that were made were the changes that needed to be made either. 

Changes that I have seen that shouldn't have been made. 
brown bag in the basement, 
getting rid of the bag check
Adding the Q
Hiring some people for jobs they have no right to have

Changes that were good
Building the hotel
Firing some people that were too comfortable
Moving the retail to a location were it can be seen

Things I am not sure about
Is the Tamarck grill/bar not open on weekdays. It wasn't last Tuesday when I was there or didn't seem to be


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## faQ (Mar 5, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> After following this thread since the beginning and making some comments I have some more thoughts. The people posting on here from the NEK seem to believe that the way the mountain was run before was the way to run the mountain. Unfortunately the mountain was failing the way it was run before. Changes needed to be made but that being said I don't think some of the changes that were made were the changes that needed to be made either.
> 
> Changes that I have seen that shouldn't have been made.
> brown bag in the basement,
> ...



I like the pros and cons list.  I live here and don't know anybody who believes it was a sustainable model. Of course we'd prefer to have the mountain all to ourselves but also realize that won't work financially.  


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

The hope of many is that Little Q stays quiet (as he has) and keeps a low profile before going on to the next endeavor.  I know that they were going to be manufacturing planes, so that is a good fit for him (I sound like a broken record...I know). 

I think that the Hotel is a huge plus...assuming that they market and run it right.  But I feel that they could be in the same place without nearly as much of the drama/strife as there has been.  Why burn your own supporters?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 5, 2015)

I really love ski in, ski out lodging, and I think that this will help to fill the hotel.  I'm definitely looking forward to the hotel coming online.  I just hope that the mountain bikers embrace it as well.  Does anyone know if they will offer secure storage of bicycles?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I really love ski in, ski out lodging, and I think that this will help to fill the hotel.  I'm definitely looking forward to the hotel coming online.  I just hope that the mountain bikers embrace it as well.  Does anyone know if they will offer secure storage of bicycles?



I don't think that the Mountain Bike crowd will use the Hotel.  Some will, but most of that crowd will spend $5,000 on a bike and then sleep in a tent or the back of a truck.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2015)

+1

Hear they have climate controlled tennis racket storage though.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 5, 2015)

All that "Q" branded merchandise might someday have novelty value. Kind of like Seattle Seahawks 2015 superbowl champs stuff that got produced only to be recalled. :lol:


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2015)

skifastr said:


> All that "Q" branded merchandise might someday have novelty value. Kind of like Seattle Seahawks 2015 superbowl champs stuff that got produced only to be recalled. :lol:



Are we going to see kids in Africa and South America wearing Qburke clothes in National Geographic?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

skifastr said:


> All that "Q" branded merchandise might someday have novelty value. Kind of like Seattle Seahawks 2015 superbowl champs stuff that got produced only to be recalled. :lol:



That thought crossed my mind....but I did not want to put money in his pocket.  Hence why I went to EBS and got one of their "special" hoodies.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Are we going to see kids in Africa and South America wearing Qburke clothes in National Geographic?









:lol:


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 5, 2015)

Lol!


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 5, 2015)

Well played.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Well played.



You KNEW that was coming


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## oldtimer (Mar 5, 2015)

*Q merchandise*

It may have been said earlier, but the Q hard goods face at least 2 problems:
1) most anyone sort of connected to the mountain or area has  no interest in wearing the "Q"  -- it does not carry positive energy with it.

2)  that Q logo is UGLY.  My son and I were at another area and he saw a t-shirt in the window that was graphically really sharp.  As broke as he is, he bought it because it looked cool.  That impulse buy is not happening with that awful creature surrounded by the forced Q.

fwiw--


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## Cannonball (Mar 5, 2015)

I just assumed Ary's next move was an NBA franchise


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 5, 2015)

Email today...


> [h=1]Round Table End of Season Discussion[/h]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't recall discussion about these meetings being a regular occurrence, but I like the idea! However, I'm not sure how many people they are going to get at 9:00 AM on a Saturday when most people are looking to hit the slopes at that time.


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## burski (Mar 5, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Email today...
> However, I'm not sure how many people they are going to get at 9:00 AM on a Saturday when most people are looking to hit the slopes at that time.



Another example of management having no clue who their customers are - having a meeting on a Saturday morning during the prime of ski season - even when they try to do good they mess it up....


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## VTKilarney (Mar 5, 2015)

It's nice to see that they are keeping a line of communication open.  On the other hand, I'm not sure that a meeting so soon is needed.  But I'd rather they err on the side of too much communication than too little so I'm not complaining.  

My only real concern at this point in time is to receive the snowmaking plan prior to plunking down money for a season pass.  They promised to get this information out prior to the price increase deadline.

As for the time of day for the meeting... yeah... that's bad.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

I'd move it to 4:30pm on a Saturday.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'd move it to 4:30pm on a Saturday.



Maybe that time was intentional...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Maybe that time was intentional...



I agree.  They probably planned a snow storm to occur before that so that the local powderhounds are not available.....


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## mbedle (Mar 6, 2015)

I don't believe that any resort branded material is a hot commodity with locals. The stuff is made and sold mostly to vacationers. I grew up on the jersey shore and my parents certainly didn't take us down to the beach shops to buy school cloths.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 6, 2015)

U16 state championships are this weekend.  How much should that impact crowds?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I don't believe that any resort branded material is a hot commodity with locals. The stuff is made and sold mostly to vacationers. I grew up on the jersey shore and my parents certainly didn't take us down to the beach shops to buy school cloths.



Well, regardless, it ain't selling!


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## mbedle (Mar 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, regardless, it ain't selling!



True... lol


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> True... lol



:lol:


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## Masskier (Mar 7, 2015)

Wow, another busy day at Burke.  At times there's a 3-5 minute lift line.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2015)

There is a video on Burke's FB page of Ary snowboarding today.....weird.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153192762773023&set=vb.303348433022&type=2&theater


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Wow, another busy day at Burke.  At times there's a 3-5 minute lift line.



I was expecting worse since there were tons of people there for the ski race.  I'd guess that about 25% of the crowd were racers or family.  

Conditions were fantastic.


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## Masskier (Mar 7, 2015)

An inside look at the Hotel


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2015)

Masskier said:


> An inside look at the Hotel.


This is just copy-pasted from their Facebook page.  It would have been easier just to give the link, especially since there are more photos there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This is just copy-pasted from their Facebook page.  It would have been easier just to give the link, especially since there are more photos there.



I'll take it. Better than nothing. 


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## Masskier (Mar 7, 2015)

Here's the link to see the rest of the pictures,  https://www.facebook.com/BurkeMtn/posts/10153193564638023


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## River19 (Mar 8, 2015)

Coming along.......views look good, then again it is hard to screw up the awesome views from that vantage point.

Parking lot was jammed with racers yesterday when we drove through.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2015)

Another good day today.  It might have been in my head, but the snow seemed a little softer than yesterday.  I think that the sun and temps may be starting to come into play.  

Look at the idiot #1: The Masshole who complained to the lift attendant for not bunching up groups when there was only about a 3 or 4 chair wait later in the day.

Look at the idiot #2: In a moment of delusion, I tried a jump in the terrain park.  The problem is that I tried a little too hard and got too much air and landed on my ass.  It was not a bad fall since I fell on the backside (downhill slope) of the jump, but I am sure that I looked like a complete fool.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2015)

March is off to a good start for them. 


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## crank (Mar 8, 2015)

I skied Burke yesterday and the conditions were fantastic.  My first time there when the whole mountain was open.  Really nice glades there.


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## River19 (Mar 9, 2015)

crank said:


> I skied Burke yesterday and the conditions were fantastic.  My first time there when the whole mountain was open.  Really nice glades there.



And that there is the reason I hope in 5-7 years we are all sitting around having a beer looking at a successful mountain that has re-integrated with the local community and saying "remember in like 2014 and 2015 when they let that guy's son run the place and he pissed off everyone?......thank God they finally saw the light and installed seasoned managers as the mountain is an awesome place to spend time."


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2015)

River19 said:


> And that there is the reason I hope in 5-7 years we are all sitting around having a beer looking at a successful mountain that has re-integrated with the local community and saying "remember in like 2014 and 2015 when they let that guy's son run the place and he pissed off everyone?......thank God they finally saw the light and installed seasoned managers as the mountain is an awesome place to spend time."



That is the hope.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2015)

River19 said:


> And that there is the reason I hope in 5-7 years we are all sitting around having a beer looking at a successful mountain that has re-integrated with the local community and saying "remember in like 2014 and 2015 when they let that guy's son run the place and he pissed off everyone?......thank God they finally saw the light and installed seasoned managers as the mountain is an awesome place to spend time."



It will be sold by then.  After all the "free" capital improvements are completed, of course.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2015)

http://www.wcax.com/story/28390332/slopeside-with-nick-borelli-q-burke

Burke may be one of the last places they hit this year.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> http://www.wcax.com/story/28390332/slopeside-with-nick-borelli-q-burke
> 
> Burke may be one of the last places they hit this year.



I loved it how the first two people they interviewed were folks who skinned up and did not buy a lift ticket....

:lol:


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## SkiRaceParent (Mar 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I loved it how the first two people they interviewed were folks who skinned up and did not buy a lift ticket....
> 
> :lol:



they're both passholders


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## thetrailboss (Mar 13, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> they're both passholders



Interesting. One would not know that from the video. 


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## VTKilarney (Mar 13, 2015)

Season pass rates are out:
http://www.skiburke.com/plan-a-visit/passes-and-tickets/season-passes/


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## thetrailboss (Mar 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Season pass rates are out:
> http://www.skiburke.com/plan-a-visit/passes-and-tickets/season-passes/



OK, so I am completely confused reading that....

:blink:

Looks like straight adult pass for Burke is $549.  

The college pass is so damn confusing that I think nobody will buy it.  I understand what they are "trying" to do, but it goes against all forms of marketing I have seen (simple, less choices = better)


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2015)

What are they trying to do with the college pass?  Get people to buy early?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What are they trying to do with the college pass?  Get people to buy early?



Yes, but do college kids really have a couple hundred dollars to spend on something they won't use until nine months from now?


.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't think I've ever heard of a mountain limiting the amount of college passes offered.  And I agree, college students have enough financial worries that they don't need to be thinking about shelling out season pass money 9 months early.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think I've ever heard of a mountain limiting the amount of college passes offered.  And I agree, college students have enough financial worries that they don't need to be thinking about shelling out season pass money 9 months early.



Just shows that, yet again, Q does not understand who his customer really is.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 13, 2015)

And keep in mind that the incoming Freshmen next year will feel like they are getting a bad deal.  Not a good way to start a potential four year relationship.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 13, 2015)

The college pass price game gets even weirder.  After 55 passes are sold, the price for a Q-Burke only pass goes up to $299.  For the same $299, a college student can buy a pass that is good at Cannon, Waterville Valley, Cranmore, and Bretton Woods.  Hmm... which is the better deal?  It's not as if Cannon is that far from LSC.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Just shows that, yet again, Q does not understand who his customer really is.



That would be Stenger to though no?  As the College Judge Pass has tiers as well.

The reality is that really only Lyndon State students are their market.  There and local kids who go to college out of the area, but might travel home to ski.  During my time at UVM, I recall only one person I knew ever getting a Jay pass.  Most went with Stowe or Sugarbush.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 13, 2015)

Agreed that UVM students don't get Jay passes. It could be that the price never really gets to Tier 4 when you factor in the single mountain passes and Judge passes.  

They price summer passes to the Pump House waterpark the same way, and I don't believe that I have ever seen it hit the top tier.  

I assumed that they had tiered pricing for the Pump House to try to generate incentive to purchase for a product that is in low demand.  College passes are probably in low demand for Jay and Burke as well just because LSC is the only truly local college of any size.

Having said that... there are two universities in Sherbrooke, but I bet that they don't tend to drive to Burke - but they might drive to Jay.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That would be Stenger to though no?  As the College Judge Pass has tiers as well.
> 
> The reality is that really only Lyndon State students are their market.  There and local kids who go to college out of the area, but might travel home to ski.  During my time at UVM, I recall only one person I knew ever getting a Jay pass.  Most went with Stowe or Sugarbush.



I didn't see that.  Jay is doing the "tier" thing as well?


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 14, 2015)

This is the second year both QB and Jay have done the 'tier thing.' and it's worked well.  The theory here being that when the incentive is metric based (there's only so many) versus deadline based, cashflow improves as a result of urgency.  The impact, this past season, was meaningful.  And whether or not any other mountain sells in this capacity has never really been a benchmark against the decisions we make tbh.  Sometimes the net bears out we were right and sometimes it doesn't.  This pricing model worked well last year and works very well as it relates to summer pass pricing.



thetrailboss said:


> I didn't see that.  Jay is doing the "tier" thing as well?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> This is the second year both QB and Jay have done the 'tier thing.' and it's worked well.  The theory here being that when the incentive is metric based (there's only so many) versus deadline based, cashflow improves as a result of urgency.  The impact, this past season, was meaningful.  And whether or not any other mountain sells in this capacity has never really been a benchmark against the decisions we make tbh.  Sometimes the net bears out we were right and sometimes it doesn't.  This pricing model worked well last year and works very well as it relates to summer pass pricing.



If it's working for you that's cool. I just know that my first reaction was confusion. It made my head spin. I just think that simpler is better...especially in sales. 


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## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2015)

At the pass holder meeting this evening, Q Burke disclosed that they have put the Willoughby quad up for sale.  At the February pass holder meeting they had said that it was going to be used for an East Bowl expansion.  

Also at the February pass holder meeting, they promised to have a specific snowmaking upgrade plan released prior to the deadline for the early bird passes.  While that deadline has not yet approached, they have yet to release a specific plan.  

Ary was not in attendance at the meeting.  A letter from Ary was handed out.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2015)

Hopefully they use the proceeds from the sale to improve snowmaking.   

Though I think they are making a mistake in not going with fromtheNEK's plan for shortening it and making and intermediate terrain area.

Wonder what that means regarding a lift in the East Bowl.  Hopefully they're shelving that idea.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully they use the proceeds from the sale to improve snowmaking.
> 
> Though I think they are making a mistake in not going with fromtheNEK's plan for shortening it and making and intermediate terrain area.
> 
> Wonder what that means regarding a lift in the East Bowl.  Hopefully they're shelving that idea.



+1 as to leaving it.

I don't know who would buy it. It's pretty old. 


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## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2015)

It makes no sense to have it parallel the MBX if they have no intention of using it as a backup.  I think that NEK's lower-intermediate pod was a great idea - and something that the mountain sorely needs.  

Could they be trying to get rid of it in order to make the ski area as a whole more marketable?

.


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## rueler (Mar 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> At the pass holder meeting this evening, Q Burke disclosed that they have put the Willoughby quad up for sale.  At the February pass holder meeting they had said that it was going to be used for an East Bowl expansion.
> 
> Also at the February pass holder meeting, they promised to have a specific snowmaking upgrade plan released prior to the deadline for the early bird passes.  While that deadline has not yet approached, they have yet to release a specific plan.
> Ary was not in attendance at the meeting.  A letter from Ary was handed out.



Was this in the letter that was handed out at the meeting?? I found a link to this on the Burke web site where it is announcing the season pass sale. 



 Snowmaking. This topic was at the top of the list during our Town Hall meeting and rightfully so. It’sno secret you purchase your pass to ski, as much as possible, from opening day till close. We haveconducted extensive research in what will be the most efficient and effective system to build here at QBurke and have decided to move forward with Snowmakers, Inc. (SMI), the supplier of choice for theVancouver, Sochi, and Korean winter Olympics. We have partnered with their team to developengineering plans which will increase the efficiency and effectiveness of our snow making system andproduct. Their objective is to help us open more terrain faster with a higher quality of snow. We are inthe process of acquiring the appropriate permits to allow us to begin construction in June. This effort, ifall goes as planned, will result in the ability for us to fire up 60 plus guns at one time beginningNovember 1st to open (at minimum) two routes from the summit to base area for our guests. In orderfor us to open Thanksgiving weekend, we will need at least 100 hours of good temps. If conditionsallow, and with these upgrades, we feel confident we can make this happen.
We expect these upgrades to significantly contribute to the early opening and late closing of the resortand will do our best to begin the 2015 Winter Ski Season Thanksgiving Weekend and extend throughEaster Weekend 2016, conditions and weather permitting of course. 

Although this is not yet a detailed plan, it is better than what they communicated going into this season after a very poor early season effort in 2013-2014. 

I am glad that they are selling the Willoughby quad. At the end of its run as the main lift, I wasn't too sure it had much left in it then. It's a retro-fitted lift already. To invest a bunch of time and money to move it into the East Bowl area sounded like a risky idea from the get go. If they're going to do something over there, do it with a newer lift with less baggage. Personally, I like the East Bowl area and all of the glade options just the way they are. 

If it were me, I would scrap the East Bowl idea in favor of doing something on the west side with a newer lift that services the lower mountain intermediate stuff like lower Willoughby, Gap, Fox's, Bear Den and potentially a run or two on the skier's left of Willoughby.


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## rueler (Mar 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It makes no sense to have it parallel the MBX if they have no intention of using it as a backup.  I think that NEK's lower-intermediate pod was a great idea - and something that the mountain sorely needs.
> 
> Could they be trying to get rid of it in order to make the ski area as a whole more marketable?
> 
> .



Totally agree with the lower intermediate pod of trails…there's no smooth transition for developing skiers to move from the lower mountain to the upper mountain. Deer Run is decent in spots, but has become dangerous for lower level skiers having to constantly be on the lookout for unguided missiles coming down the new lift line trails into some "iffy" intersections…let's not forget the times where it crosses over Dipper in some spots where slow skiers are "sitting ducks".


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## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2015)

Deer Run is an incredibly dangerous trail and should be closed.  


.


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## rueler (Mar 14, 2015)

More accidents will happen on that trail if/when the hotel gets filled and skier traffic increases at the mountain. 

The other spot that is a huge concern of mine is the entry point onto the Shoot from Fox's Folly. It's far enough down where advanced skiers are moving pretty good. As many of you know, there's not much room on the Shoot. If someone slides in from Fox's as you're getting to that cut-in, there's no room to avoid crushing them. That should be roped off permanently in my opinion too!!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Deer Run is an incredibly dangerous trail and should be closed.
> 
> 
> .



Believe it or not it was for a couple seasons around 1999 and 2000.  It came back due to popular demand.

There are several intersections that are of concern--Carriage Road to Toll Road, Powderhorn to Toll Road, perhaps the aforementioned Shoot onto Fox's Folly.  For the most part I never really saw any accidents in those areas.  That said, the last two fatalities have, apparently, been at the same spot on Carriage Road (my friends pointed out the spot that now has a memorial sign).  

Most locals know the areas and keep an eye out.  Other visitors generally ski unfamiliar trails slowly at first to get oriented.  But yes, they are all indeed narrow and have many more intersections than one might expect.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It makes no sense to have it parallel the MBX if they have no intention of using it as a backup.  I think that NEK's lower-intermediate pod was a great idea - and something that the mountain sorely needs.
> 
> Could they be trying to get rid of it in order to make the ski area as a whole more marketable?
> 
> .



How would removing it make the area "more marketable?"  

As said, shorten it and leave it.  Nobody is going to pay much for a lift that consists of 50 year old components with a mix of almost 30-year old technology that, for some regimes, was no well cared for.  I think it is a mistake to not keep it maintained and at least at the ready should wind or some other issue strike.  That just seems shortsighted to me.  But perhaps it needs major work like a new haul rope or other upgrades.


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## rueler (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't have any issue with where Shoot dumps you into Fox's Folly. When I am skiing Fox's Folly, I know that people could come shooting out from the Shoot and I plan accordingly. 

My issue is when I am on the Shoot and skiers can come into the Shoot from Fox's Folly at about the midway point on the pitch of the Shoot when you start moving at a good clip. I've had two skiers shoot out in front of me from Fox's Folly in the past couple of seasons and I have started to avoid skiing the Shoot for that reason. The biggest issue is that when those skiers from Fox's merged into Shoot, they did not look uphill before entering. There weren't any collisions, but both were close enough calls to raise some concern.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2015)

I thought I recalled shoot being fenced off at one point?  Or maybe it was another trail.  I remember FNEK pointing it out the one time I made turns with him.   

I've never seen a memorial on a trail side except for Aspen Highlands for the ski patrolers that died in an avalanche.  I'm assuming that it is like what you see on the side of a road where a traffic accident happened?  I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I feel awful for the young lady that passed, but I don't know if I'd want to see it skiing with a young child and having to explain what happened.


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## rueler (Mar 14, 2015)

The memorial on Carriage Road is for the pastor that died a few years back. I believe it says John's Run and has a nice message on it. I am not sure if the young lady that passed died in that spot or not. 

There is another spot on Powderhorn where there is a memorial. There's a sign that says Tony's Run just before you can cut off Powderhorn onto Deer Run. It also has a memorial bench there and drumsticks screwed into the tree. Not sure of the story on that one, but it's there.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> How would removing it make the area "more marketable?"


The lift is pretty ancient and isn't needed in its current form.  Therefore, a potential purchaser may see it as more of a white elephant than an actual asset.  Having said that, I'm REALLY disappointed that they aren't pursuing transitional terrain from the lower hill accessed by the Willoughby lift.

As for Deer Run, there are a couple of spots that are the most likely for accidents:
1) The intersection with Carriage Road.  (Carriage Road itself is a dangerous trail in its current form).
2) The intersections with the Dippers.

The Dippers are made for fast cruising.  Yet you have Deer Run crossing right in front of its path in multiple spots.  That's a recipe for trouble.  

I'd actually be in favor of keeping some parts of Deer Run open, such as the parts to the east of Dippers that allow lower intermediates to avoid the steepest pitches on the Dippers.  But Deer Run as a whole is responsible for the vast majority of unsafe intersections on the hill - and really chops up Lift Line and the Dippers, making those two trails much worse off because of it.

As for Fox's Folly emptying onto The Shoot, I'd have no problem roping that intersection off since there isn't any need for it.  I always take the lower exit from Fox's to get to Willoughby.


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## chuckstah (Mar 15, 2015)

Burke skied real nice today. 6 inches or so of mid density snow topped off the firm base nicely. Woods were in mid winter form. There was one hiccup in the day as the lower mountain lost power from around 11 til noon. The mbx was running, and they shuttled people from the sherburne lodge up to mid Burke.  Some people were pissed as they could not sell you a lift ticket. A bunch of people were trying to give them money, but they could not take it. A backup plan is needed. Sell tickets at mid Burke where power was fine?  Should never have stopped!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> Burke skied real nice today. 6 inches or so of mid density snow topped off the firm base nicely. Woods were in mid winter form. There was one hiccup in the day as the lower mountain lost power from around 11 til noon. The mbx was running, and they shuttled people from the sherburne lodge up to mid Burke.  Some people were pissed as they could not sell you a lift ticket. A bunch of people were trying to give them money, but they could not take it. A backup plan is needed. Sell tickets at mid Burke where power was fine?  Should never have stopped!



+1

When I visited two weeks ago the Sherburne went down as well and they were all similarly confused with no plan. It was like the Keystone Cops. The folks I was with commented at the complete lack of real leadership. 


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 16, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought I recalled shoot being fenced off at one point?  Or maybe it was another trail.  I remember FNEK pointing it out the one time I made turns with him.


Good memory! But you are just off... :smile:
It was the right option of Camper Carry after they widened the left section. They were trying to regenerate vegetation on the right and mitigate the bad intersection where the two sections of trail came back together.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Good memory! But you are just off... :smile:
> It was the right option of Camper Carry after they widened the left section. They were trying to regenerate vegetation on the right and mitigate the bad intersection where the two sections of trail came back together.



I thought it was odd how they planted a tree right at that intersection...or tried to block it.  That is a bad intersection.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> ... I'm REALLY disappointed that they aren't pursuing transitional terrain from the lower hill accessed by the Willoughby lift.



+1. IMHO that set up is almost perfect. However, I can only take credit for mapping it. The idea was actually raised at the advisory panel session a couple years ago (with strong agreement from the crowd).


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## River19 (Mar 16, 2015)

Interesting developments over the past week so based on this discussion here.

Selling the quad......can make sense if it really brings in any cash.......it could also reduce potential insurance expense but that is just a gut guess thinking an aging lift used very little becomes a liability at some point.

One question that occurred to me from a selfish standpoint was the snow making capability extending the season longer..........are we talking late April?  Or are they talking about the ability to even make April if we have a March warmup etc.

Again, I'm asking for a selfish reason for the non-winter season.......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 16, 2015)

The want to fill the hotel so they want to extend the overall ski season.   That's at least my take on it.


.


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## oldtimer (Mar 16, 2015)

While I suspect you are correct in terms of their motivation for a saying they desire longer season, someone should tell them that no resort can give away hotel rooms mid-week in the first 2 weeks of April-- no matter how good the product.




VTKilarney said:


> The want to fill the hotel so they want to extend the overall ski season.   That's at least my take on it.
> 
> 
> .


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## River19 (Mar 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The want to fill the hotel so they want to extend the overall ski season.   That's at least my take on it.
> 
> 
> .



Interesting. Here is where I am coming from with my question.......so you invest in snowmaking, awesome, very much needed specifically on the front end of the season and to recover from mid season warm ups.  I'm wondering what the implications are of extending the season with additional snow pack on the length of the upcoming mud season and possible delay of loading the hotel up with bikers who would need to purchase all new passes vs. a meaningful % of the late season skiers being pass holders.

Capturing the pent up demand for biking season and new revenue is probably more worthwhile than capturing the ass end of the ski season.....


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> Interesting. Here is where I am coming from with my question.......so you invest in snowmaking, awesome, very much needed specifically on the front end of the season and to recover from mid season warm ups.  I'm wondering what the implications are of extending the season with additional snow pack on the length of the upcoming mud season and possible delay of loading the hotel up with bikers who would need to purchase all new passes vs. a meaningful % of the late season skiers being pass holders.



There is at least a full month between ski and bike season. The snow is long gone (unless a Killington-esque glacier is in the plans) and the opening of bike season hinges more on the raininess of the Spring and onset of vegetation growth which draws the moisture out of the soil.


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## River19 (Mar 16, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is at least a full month between ski and bike season. The snow is long gone (unless a Killington-esque glacier is in the plans) and the opening of bike season hinges more on the raininess of the Spring and onset of vegetation growth which draws the moisture out of the soil.



Yes, my point is, why compound that with extra standing water from additional snow pack, which means trail work is delayed and dealing with trail closures until several weeks into the season.  Just like we had with the Memorial Day 5" of snow we got a few years back.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> Yes, my point is, why compound that with extra standing water from additional snow pack, which means trail work is delayed and dealing with trail closures until several weeks into the season.  Just like we had with the Memorial Day 5" of snow we got a few years back.


I still think it would be pretty rare that the extra snow would have that impact. Like I said, the snow is long gone by the end of May unless we get a once in 50+ year Memorial Day snowstorm (a 3-5 inch rainstorm would also delay work).  The ground won't start to really dry out until the vegetation growth kicks into gear. Post snowmelt the ground remains very saturated until that growth happens. Any additional melt water would typically just run off the surface and into the streams. There may be a few isolated spots that a muddier than "normal" but I wouldn't think it would be enough to delay opening for MTB by the beginning of June.


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## River19 (Mar 16, 2015)

So then the answer would be minimal impact, based on that line of thinking.  Only one way to find out....


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## ablb (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm skeptical about mountain bikers staying at the hotel. Most are looking for cheap. There is a market for weddings however.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 16, 2015)

The lower mountain, where lift served mountain biking takes place, might not stay open nearly as long as the upper mountain.  

As for current conditions, while the recent snow was quite heavy, it was a very nice refresh.


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## River19 (Mar 16, 2015)

ablb said:


> I'm skeptical about mountain bikers staying at the hotel. Most are looking for cheap. There is a market for weddings however.



This is pretty accurate.  Camping and sitting by a fire covered in mud and drinking a beer is a good thing......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 17, 2015)

ablb said:


> I'm skeptical about mountain bikers staying at the hotel. Most are looking for cheap. There is a market for weddings however.


I think that is one reason why they are trying so hard to package Q Burke as a wedding destination.


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that is one reason why they are trying so hard to package Q Burke as a wedding destination.



I think that was one of the original reasons for justifying the hotel was to capture the accommodation AND reception revenue and be able to have a legitimate venue vs. downstairs at the Tamarack/patio, not that those are horrible.

I'm sure some bikers will stay at the hotel, but the price has to be right and I would say 75% prefer to camp or rent a lodge/house with friends.  I think the % that usually stays in the Inns are the ones to give the hotel a try if the price is right and if they want to ride right out of the hotel.  But many people like to stay in town so they can easily ride out of their place vs. having to climb the road back up to the hotel (which will be a good poke at the end of the day).

Here's hoping for a relatively dry spring and mid May KT opening......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 17, 2015)

Of course the wedding business isn't going to fill the hotel on weeknights, so they still need to cater to conferences and mountain bikers.


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

Yeah, just like many "vacation" area hotels, the weekdays can be tough to fill.  The exception being the true vacation folks, but KT tends to be a weekend destination and holiday weeks.  I can see it getting booked up for NEMBAFest etc.


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

BTW, what is up with more of the cheesy cell phone videos posted by Q......"look another drive up the road leading to Mid Burke after 2" of snow".......

Maybe I'm in the minority, seems low rent to me....but again, I may be alone.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> BTW, what is up with more of the cheesy cell phone videos posted by Q......"look another drive up the road leading to Mid Burke after 2" of snow".......
> 
> Maybe I'm in the minority, seems low rent to me....but again, I may be alone.



No, you're right.  It does not look good.  We're all hoping that things change.


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## faQ (Mar 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> BTW, what is up with more of the cheesy cell phone videos posted by Q......"look another drive up the road leading to Mid Burke after 2" of snow".......
> 
> Maybe I'm in the minority, seems low rent to me....but again, I may be alone.



Ha, you beat me too it.  They are the worst.  It sounds like the 'crappy phone video through windshield driving on road' torch has been passed...now with narration describing the 'crappy phone video through windshield driving on road'.


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## DJAK (Mar 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> BTW, what is up with more of the cheesy cell phone videos posted by Q......"look another drive up the road leading to Mid Burke after 2" of snow".......
> 
> Maybe I'm in the minority, seems low rent to me....but again, I may be alone.



You are not alone. Source of laughter for other mtns..


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

Lol, well if Jr. stays true to form with his temper tantrums, anything people oppose he tends to double down on.

"They think this is cheesy, I'll show them cheesy!!!".....

It is the equivalent of trying to market a high dollar wedding band using a hand held cell phone video and charging a premium price......

If you want to play in the big leagues, behave like you are already in the big leagues.....

What do you think the employees (the few that are left) think when Jr is like.... "hey grab the bear costume and your snowboard, I'll grab my phone and meet you outside.."......


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2015)

DJAK said:


> You are not alone. Source of laughter for other mtns..



Yeah, unfortunately it is galvanizing him.  I've heard that the powers to be are not impressed and are waiting for the right place to send Q, Jr.


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, unfortunately it is galvanizing him.  I've heard that the powers to be are not impressed and are waiting for the right place to send Q, Jr.



I gotta be honest (like I'm not always honest), from where I sit and based on the negative energy that Jr seems to not only attract, but feed off of, I think the best thing they could do is to remove him and not quietly.  It would be like an exorcism and hopefully the vibe will improve and go back to some positive energy where it is easier to focus on the good things going on and make it easier to see past some of the not so good things.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 17, 2015)

You think his own father would do that??


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You think his own father would do that??



Nope.  If he removed Jr., it would be done quietly so as not to cause any embarrassment to Sr. or the Q family.

That being said, if Jr.s antics distract from the business in a meaningful way, then if Sr. is anything like the businessman he is rumored to be, then he should make the move.

What I can see is something where Jr. stays with a title but in an effectively reduced role once the hotel opens and you have a large and more sophisticated organization to manage and hopefully a veteran of the business brought in to oversee the whole thing and a few people with a clue running operations and marketing, maybe someone without a cell phone camera.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 17, 2015)

IIRC, it was always the plan to have Jr. take the helm of the airplane manufacturing operation once that is up and running.  Although I haven't heard much about that project lately.  There were some references made to improvements that are supposed to be made to the airport in Coventry, but not much chatter is happening.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> I gotta be honest... I think the best thing they could do is to remove him and not quietly.  It would be like an exorcism and hopefully the vibe will improve...



Sounds like a good way to start an impromptu town-wide keg party.... :grin:


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Sounds like a good way to start an impromptu town-wide keg party.... :grin:



:lol:


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

Mother Nature is being cranky.  MBX is on wind hold during a 3-for-1 Wednesday.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

MBX closed for the remainder of the day.  Its windy out there. 


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> MBX closed for the remainder of the day.  Its windy out there.
> 
> 
> .



Bummer.  I hear it is very cold again.  Probably just as well to not open.


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## dlague (Mar 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Bummer.  I hear it is very cold again.  Probably just as well to not open.



Huh?  Cold is never a reason not to open a lift!

Wind - well that is another story!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2015)

dlague said:


> Huh?  Cold is never a reason not to open a lift!
> 
> Wind - well that is another story!



True...I meant cold and windy.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2015)

An LSC News Story on progress:

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/1253-new-hotel-in-the-works


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> An LSC News Story on progress:
> 
> http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/1253-new-hotel-in-the-works



Not much meat on that bone.  That's too bad, since LSC has had some pretty decent articles about the mountain.


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## River19 (Mar 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> An LSC News Story on progress:
> 
> http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/1253-new-hotel-in-the-works



Wow this portion of the sentence is a hot mess...... "the new hotel will be $1.8 million square feet with 116 suits"

Not sure where to start on that bit of reporting......lol

Measuring space in $ and having 116 "suits"......I hope they carry my size......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

Okay.  I just watched the video.  

The new marketing director blamed the one year delay on... the weather???????  Wow.  That took some guts.  Apparently LSC students have yet to have a class on asking follow up questions.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

Does anyone know the name of the new sales and marketing director?


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## Boardguy (Mar 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone know the name of the new sales and marketing director?



*Jessica B. Sechler*


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 19, 2015)

> *When the hotel is finished, the owners plan to take down the Mid-Burke lodge, but until then, the popular spot will remain open.*



First they were going to move the Willoughby Quad, now they are going to sell it.... First they were going to save the Bear's Den, now they are going to............


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## faQ (Mar 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> First they were going to move the Willoughby Quad, now they are going to sell it.... First they were going to save the Bear's Den, now they are going to............



Seriously, It's hard for me to imagine moving mid-Burke lodge. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 19, 2015)

Yeah, I don't think anyone expects them to move the whole lodge, just save (carefully dis-assemble interior of and re-construct elsewhere) Bear's Den...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, I don't think anyone expects them to move the whole lodge, just save (carefully dis-assemble interior of and re-construct elsewhere) Bear's Den...



I'm still surprised that neither MidBurke nor the Poma are on some historic registry considering that they are both 60 years old, were built partially using state money, and have historic significance.  I'd laugh if someone from the NEK delegation in Montpelier slipped in a provision to a bill providing that both are historic structures and can't be razed :lol:


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## Big Wave Dave (Mar 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm still surprised that neither MidBurke nor the Poma are on some historic registry considering that they are both 60 years old, were built partially using state money, and have historic significance.  I'd laugh if someone from the NEK delegation in Montpelier slipped in a provision to a bill providing that both are historic structures and can't be razed :lol:



just what we need, another New Deal effort getting in the way of business!

if your so driven try these guys, note under their goals "preservation of CCC built structures. Thats the Bear Den! and the fire road and all the lean to's and warming huts....no lack of CCC buildings across VT. beware what you wish for :x!

http://www.ccclegacy.org/goals.html


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> just what we need, another New Deal effort getting in the way of business!
> 
> if your so driven try these guys, note under their goals "preservation of CCC built structures. Thats the Bear Den! and the fire road and all the lean to's and warming huts....no lack of CCC buildings across VT. beware what you wish for :x!
> 
> http://www.ccclegacy.org/goals.html



Oh trust me the CCC issues has already arisen with Burke.  Go back to about 1997 or so when they proposed the work on the Dippers.  The State required them to relocate the ENTIRE pavilion and several "historic" fireplaces to where they are now.  Other trail work has required them to preserve and work around CCC structures.  Look at Upper Bear Den.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2015)

What is this?
http://www.vtfarmtoplate.com/organization/quiros-family-farm


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What is this?
> http://www.vtfarmtoplate.com/organization/quiros-family-farm



Organic hay?    As opposed to the serious plague of inorganic hay of course.

Tax write-off I'm guessing.

EDIT:  Apparently it's another business they want to start.



> Quiros has founded more than a dozen businesses and involved himself  with many others. Korean biotech firm AnC Bio is planning to locate an  American headquarters in Newport, financed through EB-5. Flight Design  Americas Inc. is a company Quiros formed to purchase the light plane  manufacturer he and Stenger were already planning to bring to the  Newport State Airport. Ariel Quiros is the sole director of Q.Resorts,  which owns both Jay Peak and Q Burke Mountain ski areas. Not that all his ventures have been successful. Quiros is almost  sheepish when he describes QBall, a firm he started to invent a soccer  ball with advertising panels on the surface. Likewise, Quiros says, Q  Mirror, a motion-activated mirror that reverts to an electronic image  when the viewer walks away, faltered after initial success. Quiros says his greatest letdown to date is Techno Braille, a braille  typeface made of epoxy he claims to have invented and that he hopes to  establish a market for yet.* Still in the wings are the Quiros Family  Farm Inc.*, and Q Development LLC. His business track record is not without its scars or near misses. He lost his seat on the board of Bioheart Inc. after AnC Bio failed  to make the second installment in a $4 million investment. A South  Florida Business Journal article pointed to AnC’s financial hardship  after the tsunami in Japan hurt its business partners. The story  suggested the break was not irreparable.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Organic hay?    As opposed to the serious plague of inorganic hay of course.
> 
> Tax write-off I'm guessing.



Along the same lines as organic maple syrup :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What is this?
> http://www.vtfarmtoplate.com/organization/quiros-family-farm



QFarm.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Along the same lines as organic maple syrup :roll:



Can I just say that the new Vermont Maple grading system is plain DUMB?


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Can I just say that the new Vermont Maple grading system is plain DUMB?



I'm not a fan of it either. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, the new system is dumb because people not familiar with maple syrup grading were to dumb to understand the old system.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Along the same lines as *organic maple syrup *



Oh, that drives me nuts.  I cant help but point it out whenever I see it.



thetrailboss said:


> Can I just say that *the new Vermont Maple grading system is plain DUMB?*



I only noticed this a few weeks ago.  

 After looking into it, I've decided the entire point of the change was to eliminate the term, _"Grade B"_, since that denotes an inferiority in the consumers mind.   I don't care what cock & bull story Vermont invented for the change in terminology, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  You cant pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, Vermont!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2015)

Can anyone explain to me why they kept "Grade A" when everything seems to fall within "Grade A" now?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm not a fan of it either. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, the new system is dumb because people not familiar with maple syrup grading were to dumb to understand the old system.



Yep.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2015)

Add to this that the new fancy grade is nearly impossible to make. It is lighter than the old fancy with almost no color. I think that may be that way so whatever Fancy that is made can be sold for huge $.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 19, 2015)

Q should run syrup company lol!


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 19, 2015)

Back on the Burke topic...
From Tuesday on the way home from work:


Burke Over The Hill 2-1 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

The February condo statistics are in for Caledonia County.  The numbers we are dealing with here are small, so keep in mind that they can swing percentages quite a bit.

The short version - compared to 2014:
1) Listings are up this year;
2) There is 1 pending sale, compared to 2 last year;
3) There is one closed sale, compared to 1 last year;
4) In February 2014 there were 16 units for sale, in February 2015 there were 34;
5) In Ferbruary 2014 there were 7.5 months supply for sale; in February 2015 there were 21.6.
6) Percentage of asking price received is down approximately ten percent.

While it is too early to draw any steadfast conclusions, it appears that the buyer's market is strengthening even more than it had in 2014.  But this can certainly turn around quickly since we are only looking at 1/6th of the overall year.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2015)

Twice as many units for sale....wow.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Twice as many units for sale....wow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I'm a little surprised at that statistic.  Burke has announced a longer season, and they apparently are going to invest in better snowmaking even if the details are still vague.  But for the hotel's sake alone it stands to reason that they will make the investment.  So I'm not really sure why people seem to be voting with their feet at this point.


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## burski (Mar 20, 2015)

Likely a number of owners who have been waiting to sell and this appears to be a good time (with the promise of a new hotel).   Why would these people sell now instead of wait for the hotel to be built and the value of their property to increase?  I would guess they have no confidence in the future with current owners and now may be the safest time to get out...


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## River19 (Mar 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm a little surprised at that statistic.  Burke has announced a longer season, and they apparently are going to invest in better snowmaking even if the details are still vague.  But for the hotel's sake alone it stands to reason that they will make the investment.  So I'm not really sure why people seem to be voting with their feet at this point.



Well, one line of thought might be the folks that own some of the mountain condos purely as rentals or primarily as rentals are pulling out.  Now is probably a little too late honestly.  Historically there was no mountain lodging available except the condos so it was a decent rental market in good snow years; however now they have a large hotel being built that will probably cut into the rental demand.  Time to get out.  I would.  Then again, I would have prior to the hotel being built.......


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## Masskier (Mar 20, 2015)

When looking at those sales stats you would think that it is a strong Buyer's market.  However if you dig a litttle deeper you see a different picture.  The stats listed above are skewed.  There was never 34 Condos for sale in Feb.  There was a sale of local real estate agency to c-21 and when they transferred the listings over it caused a lot of duplications.  Currently there are 21 Condos for sale on the mountain of which 4 are not even built yet so that leave 17 that are available for immediate sale.  That is a far cry from 34. This also would bring the down the "months supple of inventory" substantially. 

Burke is actually off to one of it strongest 1st quarters ever.  Compare to the 1st quarter last Year, condo sales are up 300% (4 sales Vs 1 last year).  The average price is up a whopping 277.9% ($470,500 vs $124,500 last year.  As I discussed in December, with such a small data pool, you need to look at a lot more than just these stats to get a feel of the direction of the market.


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## River19 (Mar 20, 2015)

If fishing were only that easy......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

You claim that sales are up 300% this quarter.  The Vermont Association of Realtors reports that through the first two months of the year sales are level and pending sales are lower.  Somebody has made a mistake somewhere along the line unless a couple of people signed a contract and closed all within the first 20 days of March.  

One way or the other we will know if you are correct when the March report comes out.

I have noticed that asking prices on several units have been reduced in February and this month.  Unless those owners like to give their money away it is not consistent with the market being a strong sellers market.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

Masskier said:


> However if you dig a litttle deeper you see a different picture.  The stats listed above are skewed.  There was [sic] never 34 Condos for sale in Feb.  There was a sale of local real estate agency to c-21 and when they transferred the listings over it caused a lot of duplications.


As you can see, above, I said that I was surprised by the "number of listings" statistic - and gave some reasons why.  Thank you for providing me with validation that my instinct was spot on.  It's always nice to know from time to time that I am able to see the forest through the trees.


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## Masskier (Mar 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You claim that sales are up 300% this quarter.  The Vermont Association of Realtors reports that through the first two months of the year sales are level and pending sales are lower.  Somebody has made a mistake somewhere along the line unless a couple of people signed a contract and closed all within the first 20 days of March.
> 
> One way or the other we will know if you are correct when the March report comes out.
> 
> I have noticed that asking prices on several units have been reduced in February and this month.  Unless those owners like to give their money away it is not consistent with the market being a strong sellers market.



Yes, The VAR report is not accurate.  They did not pick up on the two sales in February.  And they may not pick up on the one earlier this month either.  But as you know it is easy enough to verify.  Perhaps VAR doesn't report non MLS sales.  However they should.

I'm only aware of 1 price reduction.  Under normal circumstances the only reason a price should be reduced now is if it was overpriced to begin with.  Prices certainly are not falling, it's the opposite.  And that is good news for the value of your Condo also.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I'm only aware of 1 price reduction.



- Powderhorn 402 was put back on the market for less than it what it had been listed for when it was taken off of the market in October, 2014.
- Powderhorn 1103 was reduced yesterday.
- 26 Wintergreen #10 was reduced on 2/14/15


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## Masskier (Mar 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> - Powderhorn 402 was put back on the market for less than it what it had been listed for when it was taken off of the market in October, 2014.
> - Powderhorn 1103 was reduced yesterday.
> - 26 Wintergreen #10 was reduced on 2/14/15



Wintergreen 10 was entered into MLS at the wrong price and that why the next day  they changed it to 199k.  I knew about PH 1103 being relisted at a  lower price, but I didn't realize that PH 402 was listed at a higher  price last fall.  Thanks for the info.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

Moving on to skiing... Any word on how much the races this weekend will affect the overall crowd level?


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## ablb (Mar 20, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well, one line of thought might be the folks that own some of the mountain condos purely as rentals or primarily as rentals are pulling out.  Now is probably a little too late honestly.  Historically there was no mountain lodging available except the condos so it was a decent rental market in good snow years; however now they have a large hotel being built that will probably cut into the rental demand.  Time to get out.  I would.  Then again, I would have prior to the hotel being built.......



Condo rentals in winter are primarily seasonal and the market is quite good. It is mostly ski program families. I expect that the hotel will cut into summer short term rentals. Will have to wait and see.
Most of the units I know of for sale are long term owners who bought in late 90s and families are grown.


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## Masskier (Mar 20, 2015)

ablb said:


> Condo rentals in winter are primarily seasonal and the market is quite good. It is mostly ski program families. I expect that the hotel will cut into summer short term rentals. Will have to wait and see.
> Most of the units I know of for sale are long term owners who bought in late 90s and families are grown.



Agreed,  I already have deposits on seasonal rentals for next year.


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2015)

ablb said:


> Condo rentals in winter are primarily seasonal and the market is quite good. It is mostly ski program families. I expect that the hotel will cut into summer short term rentals. Will have to wait and see.
> Most of the units I know of for sale are long term owners who bought in late 90s and families are grown.



I'm just going off a couple folks I know and how they are thinking, but time will tell.


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## ablb (Mar 21, 2015)

River19 said:


> I'm just going off a couple folks I know and how they are thinking, but time will tell.



I own three condos, am active in the associations and have been for 20+ years. The winter and summer rental markets are very different.


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2015)

ablb said:


> I own three condos, am active in the associations and have been for 20+ years. The winter and summer rental markets are very different.



I understand that.  Thanks.


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## dlague (Mar 21, 2015)

When Burke went bankrupt and shut down years ago. The condos were sold off for low dollars.  My guess is that now that growth plans are in place they are cashing in.


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## Masskier (Mar 21, 2015)

dlague said:


> When Burke went bankrupt and shut down years ago. The condos were sold off for low dollars.  My guess is that now that growth plans are in place they are cashing in.



That was in 2000.  Burke has never shut down. Even one time many years ago when it was owned by a Bank it continue to operate.  

 Prices were certainly much less before 2003.  But even today the values are much lower compare to other ski resorts.


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## ablb (Mar 21, 2015)

dlague said:


> When Burke went bankrupt and shut down years ago. The condos were sold off for low dollars.  My guess is that now that growth plans are in place they are cashing in.



There were 8 units owned by the mountain that were auctioned. I recall it was Bearpath and Powder horn units.


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## Whiteout (Mar 21, 2015)

I bet Q wants to saturate or ruin the market, then capitalize on it. When all these improvements are complete, people will want to visit Burke.


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## Boardguy (Mar 21, 2015)

ablb said:


> There were 8 units owned by the mountain that were auctioned. I recall it was Bearpath and Powder horn units.



I know one of the Powderhorn units that sold at auction went for several thousand more than the mountain was asking for it the previous season. Go figure.


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## Masskier (Mar 21, 2015)

Roof being installed on the Hotel.  more update photos on their Face Book page


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2015)

I was told today that two out of three groomers are broken and that Ary stated in an email that, "I'm not spending shit" in reference to having them fixed.  I also heard that this has been the case for a couple of weeks.  I also heard that the email wound up being CC:ed to Bombardier by Ary.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of what I was told, although the source has been 100% correct so far.


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## witch hobble (Mar 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> - Powderhorn 402 was put back on the market for less than it what it had been listed for when it was taken off of the market in October, 2014.
> - Powderhorn 1103 was reduced yesterday.
> - 26 Wintergreen #10 was reduced on 2/14/15



SO much stoke in this thread!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I was told today that two out of three groomers are broken and that Ary stated in an email that, "I'm not spending shit" in reference to having them fixed.  I also heard that this has been the case for a couple of weeks.  I also heard that the email wound up being CC:ed to Bombardier by Ary.
> 
> I can't vouch for the accuracy of what I was told, although the source has been 100% correct so far.



Interesting.  FWIW on my visit now three weeks ago I saw two machines working the Training Slope Saturday evening.  IIRC they had three machines in their fleet for grooming.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

There has been talk about this (crazy) new idea that they are going to sell the Willoughby Quad.  FWIW King Pine Quad, that apparently had a major malfunction today sending 7 people to the hospital after a rollback, is the same age as the Willoughby Quad.  Different manufacturers, different maintenance programs of course, etc., but something to consider all the same.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

My source tells me that the second groomer went down in the past "week or two".   

Again... Who knows.  They could be mistaken as to the number, or as to more than that.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

They still seem to be grooming the same number of trails, FWIW.  That's the important thing.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

Any truth to the rumor that the snow sports director was fired?  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 22, 2015)

Afraid to ask what that job entails...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

Uh oh....

http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/22/vtdi...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-dec3b0ff19-405558657


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

So I just read that article and am beyond pissed. Will type more thoughts later. Now back to the spin...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Uh oh....
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/22/vtdi...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-dec3b0ff19-405558657
> 
> ...



OK, here goes...buckle up.  This will also be posted on the Jay thread too.  

First comment is in response to those who said back in August that skeptics like me were wrong or merely being negative guess what?  That whole "Vermont approval" thing was B.S.  I'm sure that these folks will be quiet now.  

Second thing is that I do sincerely hope that Stenger and Company are doing things on the up and up and that this is much ado about nothing.  That said, they are paying the price for what is shear incompetence and self-serving behavior by those in Vermont State Government.  This whole realization that "maybe we should actually regulate" is laughable after they have been looking the other way for so long while giving investors and the public the impression that these projects were in fact legit and by the book when they might not have been.  

For those who have not read that article, let me get you up to speed.  Last Summer some investors at Jay got pissed.  Led by Mr. Sutton (who I must say looks like he just got out of a UFO) they were angered by a change in their investment/ownership interest at Jay (actual ownership that was secured by the project to unsecured creditors who were going to get an IOU from JPR) changed without them knowing it.  We know about that.  Well, at around the same time, ANC Bio began having some financial issues in Korea and apparently is in deep trouble.   

After the PR firestorm that occurred in August, and an inappropriate "op ed" by the head of Vermont's Agency of Commerce that defended not just her department but the very people that they should have been monitoring, apparently they had an epiphany that maybe this whole financial regulation thing was just too tough for them and maybe there was a tiny conflict of interest in pushing these programs, allowing folks to put the imprimatur of Vermont State Government on them, but yet not really looking beneath the gloss to ensure that it was going to work and that everything was done appropriately.  Right.  

So now the other Jay projects, other Burke projects, and the rest of the whole initiative are now being reviewed by the State Department of Financial Regulations and folks who have a clue about accounting and securities and don't have any conflict of interest.  Genius really.  :roll:

I think that the State should have fired Moulton immediately.  It's painfully obvious that she cares more about her own paycheck than doing what is right and being accountable.  This whole thing has ruined not just the credibility of Vermont State Government, but really has impacted the legitimacy of what they do.  It also has left a black eye on Vermont.  

The biggest losers are the regular folks in the NEK who are struggling to get by and really could use the good jobs that these projects were supposed to have spurred.  

I'm very upset with my home state and their complete stupidity here.


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## ablb (Mar 22, 2015)

Wow. Disturbing but not surprising.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

At the passholder meeting they acted like the pool and other features were just about to be built.  


.


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## River19 (Mar 22, 2015)

ablb said:


> Wow. Disturbing but not surprising.



agree 100%.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 25, 2015)

WMUR article on Q Burke:
http://www.wmur.com/escape-outside/new-respect-for-burke-mountain/31890340


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> WMUR article on Q Burke:
> http://www.wmur.com/escape-outside/new-respect-for-burke-mountain/31890340



Hmmmm...I wonder where this is?



> This hotel will have commanding views in both directions of the mountain and of Willobhy Gap  to the north.



And I only saw about 25-50 guys working on it a month ago.  I wonder where the other "hundreds" of employees are at?



> We met with Ary Quiros Jr., president and chief executive officer for a tour of the hotel now employing hundreds a day as they put up the fourth and fifth floors on.


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## Masskier (Mar 25, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Hmmmm...I wonder where this is?
> 
> 
> 
> And I only saw about 25-50 guys working on it a month ago.  I wonder where the other "hundreds" of employees are at?



Not sure what your point is.  You don't think that the Hotel has a great view of both the mountain and the Gap?  And how did your count the 25-50 guys working?  Did you go inside and count them by each floor??  My understanding is that they have 40-50 plumbers alone working there every day.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Not sure what your point is.  You don't think that the Hotel has a great view of both the mountain and the Gap?  And how did your count the 25-50 guys working?



The point was that she massacred the name.  That was fairly obvious.



> Did you go inside and count them by each floor??  My understanding is that they have 40-50 plumbers alone working there every day.



Well, I did not see hundreds of people working there.  I think I know what hundreds of people look like.  

Why so testy?


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## River19 (Mar 25, 2015)

Everything is fine, nothing to see here, everyone is HAPPY......


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2015)

River19 said:


> Everything is fine, nothing to see here, everyone is HAPPY......



Damn straight.


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## ablb (Mar 25, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The point was that she massacred the name.  That was fairly obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



EB5 is not "federally backed". Should have stuck with discussing skiing.
Where do those workers park their vehicles?


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## River19 (Mar 26, 2015)

Not skiing related:

Speaking of plumbers, a close friend is a well known plumber in the area who was asked about heading up to work on the hotel, he checked with some other folks that had done some sub work up there and they recommended he stay away as they were still waiting for payment.

That being said, to be fair, if there are hundreds of workers, not saying there are, but if there indeed are hundreds........if they weren't getting paid on time I doubt the hundreds of workers would keep coming back.

I'm also curious where the hundreds of workers are eating lunch everyday.......I just want to avoid the flood into East Burke at lunch time.......


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## whiskey jack (Mar 26, 2015)

River19 said:


> Not skiing related:
> 
> 
> I'm also curious where the hundreds of workers are eating lunch everyday.......I just want to avoid the flood into East Burke at lunch time.......



Yes indeed, I cant imagine that those workers would bring a cooler or lunch box of some sort and eat on site.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Yes indeed, I cant imagine that those workers would bring a cooler or lunch box of some sort and eat on site.



I still doubt that hundreds of people are physically working at the hotel. 50 or so sure.


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## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I still doubt that hundreds of people are physically working at the hotel. 50 or so sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


who f'n cares if it 25, 50, 75 or 100?


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## River19 (Mar 26, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Yes indeed, I cant imagine that those workers would bring a cooler or lunch box of some sort and eat on site.



Too bad, would be nice to add something to the local economy.

I figured with hundreds, someone would need a sandwich.  Oh well.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> who f'n cares if it 25, 50, 75 or 100?


The federal government and the investors looking to get a greencard.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> who f'n cares if it 25, 50, 75 or 100?



:lol:  

As said, the EB-5 requirements for job creation.  And I'm personally not a fan of hyperbole.


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## 56fish (Mar 26, 2015)

My contribution to 4k.....rode there today...first time in 4-5 years.  Still a great hill, great ambiance, friendly staff.:beer::beer:


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2015)

Friday snow report:  Nice powder/pp on top.  Middle is nasty crud.  Bottom is very nice spring snow.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2015)

Saturday's Caledonian Record has a nice article about the grooming at Bretton Woods and happenings at all of the local ski areas.  Each local area got a section in which they gave a report for the season so far and discussed their closing date.  
The article included reports from Bretton Woods, Cannon, Jay Peak, and... well... here is what was said about Q Burke, which the newspaper still calls "Burke Mountain":

Burke Mountain did not respond to requests for information by press time. According to the resort’s website, the last day of the ski season is “projected” to be Sunday, April 5.

Apparently free publicity just isn't worth picking up the telephone for.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Saturday's Caledonian Record has a nice article about the grooming at Bretton Woods and happenings at all of the local ski areas.  Each local area got a section in which they gave a report for the season so far and discussed their closing date.
> The article included reports from Bretton Woods, Cannon, Jay Peak, and... well... here is what was said about Q Burke, which the newspaper still calls "Burke Mountain":
> 
> Burke Mountain did not respond to requests for information by press time. According to the resort’s website, the last day of the ski season is “projected” to be Sunday, April 5.
> ...



Wow.  That is a first.  They almost always responded to the Cal Rec.


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 28, 2015)

Note sure how else to post this! I tried sending you a reply to your mailbox trailboss but your folder was full!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Note sure how else to post this! I tried sending you a reply to your mailbox trailboss but your folder was full!



Ugh! Just deleted some. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 29, 2015)

Apparently MBE had to be evacuated yesterday.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 29, 2015)

If Facebook is to be believed, some people were stuck for upwards of two hours.  The stuck guests were given a coupon for $20 off of a lift ticket.  Management was nowhere to be seen when they got off the lift.  Cafeteria was closed.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2015)

What was the reason it was down?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2015)

And yet another incident where management didn't step up and take care of things.  The norm for lift situations is normally a free day ticket to comp those who lost ski time.  But then again there is nothing normal with this management.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 29, 2015)

It was a "low voltage malfunction", whatever that means.  


.


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## vermonter44 (Mar 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It was a "low voltage malfunction", whatever that means.
> 
> 
> .



That sounds like a failure power. I wonder if it was in the lift equipment or an issue somewhere else


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## Smellytele (Mar 30, 2015)

Low voltage sounds like a controls issue not an actual power outage.


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## burski (Mar 30, 2015)

Low voltage is typically isolated to the lift itself, not an actual power outage as the lower lift continued to run all day.  I have talked to a number of people that said that some were stuck on the lift for as long as 3 hours... and confirmed that they were only provided a $20 off coupon for their inconvenience


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

The stoppage occurred almost at the end of the day yes?  At least that's what I gathered from Facebook.  Maybe that's the reason they only offered $20 instead of a full day voucher?

It's still penny wise and pound foolish decision if you ask me.  An infrequent skier might not return to a ski area again after such an episode thinking they have unreliable lifts.  A very beginning skier might give up the sport all together.  Extreme reactions for sure, but it's fairly amazing that some of my never ever skiing friends think of what we do in the mountains as completely crazy.  An experience like that could be a huge turn off and make someone not want to come back to the sport.


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## River19 (Mar 30, 2015)

I think the $20 thing is exactly in line with the theme of Jr.  It makes sense from a "how much of the skiing day did they miss out on due to the lift issue?" standpoint......it makes zero sense from a customer service point of view.

Free weekend pass/day pass combined with being there with a hot or cold beverage and a hearty handshake and apology from mgt would be nice if I froze my ass off hanging on a lift for 2-3hrs.......but what do I know.

Personally, if it were me that sat up there for 3hrs, I would give the guys that got me off a big handshake and hug and a "thanks" for a job well done.  If a member of management offered me only $20 for my troubles after 2-3 hrs of hanging there, I would want to kick them in the balls and throw it at them......as a $20 "voucher" after that would feel like a kick in the balls to me, might as well return the favor.


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## Big Wave Dave (Mar 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> I think the $20 thing is exactly in line with the theme of Jr.  It makes sense from a "how much of the skiing day did they miss out on due to the lift issue?" standpoint......it makes zero sense from a customer service point of view.
> 
> Free weekend pass/day pass combined with being there with a hot or cold beverage and a hearty handshake and apology from mgt would be nice if I froze my ass off hanging on a lift for 2-3hrs.......but what do I know.
> 
> Personally, if it were me that sat up there for 3hrs, I would give the guys that got me off a big handshake and hug and a "thanks" for a job well done.  If a member of management offered me only $20 for my troubles after 2-3 hrs of hanging there, I would want to kick them in the balls and throw it at them......as a $20 "voucher" after that would feel like a kick in the balls to me, might as well return the favor.



I have been evacuated from lifts 4 times, including once long ago on the old willoughby double, and have never been offered anything except once when I got a voucher for a free hot chocolate- this was at Breck. Not sure giving $20 to someone is really that inconsequential. No excuse for the lack of management on site.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I have been evacuated from lifts 4 times, including once long ago on the old willoughby double, and have never been offered anything except once when I got a voucher for a free hot chocolate- this was at Breck. Not sure giving $20 to someone is really that inconsequential. No excuse for the lack of management on site.



I saw last night that the evac was at the end of the day, so perhaps that is why they figured that $20 was more in line than a free ticket.  But then again perhaps someone had to make an executive decision and did not want to face the ire of his/her superior and decided to do this.  We will never know I guess.  Glad everyone is OK and the lift is fixed.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

For all of the expectation on this forum for a free ticket, it doesn't seem to be the industry norm.  

From what I have heard it took 3 hours or so to complete the evacuation.  Whether or not the stoppage occurred at the end of the day, that's a long time to be stuck on a lift.  If I were in charge I would probably vary what I gave out depending on how long the people were stuck.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

I think you need to be consistent.  If I found out a buddy got a free ski day, but I only got $20 because I was the first to be evacuated?  I wouldn't be pleased.

Yes, some are going to be inconvenienced more than others, but it's about building good will with great customer service.  Outside of feeling safe, I doubt many customers walked away thinking they got good service.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I think you need to be consistent.  If I found out a buddy got a free ski day, but I only got $20 because I was the first to be evacuated?  I wouldn't be pleased.
> 
> Yes, some are going to be inconvenienced more than others, but it's about building good will with great customer service.  Outside of feeling safe, I doubt many customers walked away thinking they got good service.



The last time I was evacuated, on Dec. 25, 2006 at Burke, I got a free ticket.  Most places usually do that from what I have heard.  I also got a free hot bev.  I was stuck at 1pm or so and not off until 3pm.  Management was there at the lodge checking with folks.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

And this is NOT going to go away......

http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/30/vtdigger-exclusive-state-raises-questions-about-anc-bio-finances/

It's a sibling of the Burke projects, but still concerning....


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2015)

A free ticket for an evacuation is a no-brainer to me. Some folks would find that a terrifying experience. For pass holders, at least a decent free lunch or something.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I think you need to be consistent.  If I found out a buddy got a free ski day, but I only got $20 because I was the first to be evacuated?  I wouldn't be pleased..


Different strokes for different folks.  I would much rather be the person who got off in ten minutes but only got a $20 coupon.  As much as I like the idea of a free voucher, I value not being stuck on a lift more.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

And that's fine, but you don't make customer service decisions based on what's best for the individual.  You want to ensure everyone is satisfied.

While you might prefer being the ten minute, $20 guy; you'd be even happier being the 10 minutes full voucher person.   

If you vary compensation on time stuck up there, some folks would find your methods arbitrary and get pissed.


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## River19 (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Different strokes for different folks.  I would much rather be the person who got off in ten minutes but only got a $20 coupon.  As much as I like the idea of a free voucher, I value not being stuck on a lift more.



Which is why, if it were me, and I fell into the 1.5-3hr camp I would be in the gimme a free day bucket.  How much would Jr. charge me to ski for only 1.5-3hrs?  $20?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> Which is why, if it were me, and I fell into the 1.5-3hr camp I would be in the gimme a free day bucket.  How much would Jr. charge me to ski for only 1.5-3hrs?  $20?


I definitely agree that people stuck on the lift for more than 30 minutes or so should get a free return voucher.

Deadheadskier has a good point.  You will annoy fewer people with free vouchers - so it's the best idea to give out the free vouchers.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

And I would be willing to bet that said $20 vouchers are only for this season...in other words they have to be used by April 5th....or QEaster....or within 6 days.  

#QWINNING

:lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

Maybe they can be used in the gift shop.  The $30 long sleeved "Q Burke" t-shirts are now 60% off.  The last time I looked there was plenty of inventory left.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Maybe they can be used in the gift shop.  The $30 long sleeved "Q Burke" t-shirts are now 60% off.  The last time I looked there was plenty of inventory left.



Still.....only six days of the season!


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## River19 (Mar 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And I would be willing to bet that said $20 vouchers are only for this season...in other words they have to be used by April 5th....or QEaster....or within 6 days.
> 
> #QWINNING
> 
> :lol:



Really?  What the fuQ......


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 30, 2015)

Never been stuck in a chairlift.  If I was stuck for 2 hours in a chairlift, especially in cold weather, I would expect nothing less than a free ski pass, lunch and one night in a hotel.  My recreation time is worth to me a lot more than one free ski pass, let alone 20$, which I would have taken as an insult.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

Going out on a QBang......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

What is the difference between the $35 tickets on Tuesday and Thursday and the $35 ticket on Friday?  I know that it has to do with "Silver Streaker" rates for all, but it's a pretty confusing way to convey the information.  And no mention at all of Wednesday's 3-for-1 deal.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What is the difference between the $35 tickets on Tuesday and Thursday and the $35 ticket on Friday?  I know that it has to do with "Silver Streaker" rates for all, but it's a pretty confusing way to convey the information.  And no mention at all of Wednesday's 3-for-1 deal.



I think that they are trying to say that T, TH, and F are $35 ticket days.  

Wednesday I assume is still the 3-for-1 deal, but who knows.


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## River19 (Mar 30, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Never been stuck in a chairlift.  If I was stuck for 2 hours in a chairlift, especially in cold weather, I would expect nothing less than a free ski pass, lunch and one night in a hotel.  My recreation time is worth to me a lot more than one free ski pass, let alone 20$, which I would have taken as an insult.



So you would kick them in balls as well if they offered you $20........lol


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## Domeskier (Mar 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> So you would kick them in balls as well if they offered you $20........lol



Maybe they should start charging $20 to get a priority evac.  I'd pay for that.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> Maybe they should start charging $20 to get a priority evac.  I'd pay for that.



Sssssshhhhhh.  Don't give anyone any ideas now...


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## Domeskier (Mar 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Sssssshhhhhh.  Don't give anyone any ideas now...



Yeah - there might be a lot more "broken" lifts if areas thought they could extort money from people who wanted to get off faster.


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## SkiRaceParent (Mar 30, 2015)

Every time I open this thread and read it, it reminds me of these people: https://screen.yahoo.com/whiners-airplane-000000188.html


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Every time I open this thread and read it, it reminds me of these people: https://screen.yahoo.com/whiners-airplane-000000188.html



Then don't open it.  It beats whining about whining.


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## SkiRaceParent (Mar 31, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Then don't open it.  It beats whining about whining.



I don't mind, it keeps me laughing


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## VTKilarney (Mar 31, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I don't mind, it keeps me laughing



That's one thing we have in common.  ;-)


.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 31, 2015)

Lifts are only spinning until 4:30 this weekend rather than 5:00.  Burke will be closing with plenty of snow.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 2, 2015)

These stickers are on about 25% of the chairs and lots of other places at the resort.  





.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> These stickers are on about 25% of the chairs and lots of other places at the resort.
> 
> 
> View attachment 16421
> ...



That's funny because I have been hearing and seeing that phrase online and from other locals.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 2, 2015)

Our forum member make those?


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 2, 2015)

That is awesome.  How bad must you be for the loyal customers to be so upset as to print and deploy those?   Wow.  Epic bad.


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## River19 (Apr 2, 2015)

I think epic fail is about right to push people to that point......I think Jr might need a new bumper sticker.....lol

Oh, and where can I get like 10 of those?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 2, 2015)

A friend of mine saw them in from of the urinals, but they have since been removed.

Today's conditions on the trails were unbelievable.  Hero snow all day.  The warmup didn't happen until very late in the day.  The bumps were still firm, but this warm weather is going to help a lot.  The staff insists that Sunday is definitely the last day - even with tons of snow left to spare.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A friend of mine saw them in from of the urinals, but they have since been removed.
> 
> Today's conditions on the trails were unbelievable.  Hero snow all day.  The warmup didn't happen until very late in the day.  The bumps were still firm, but this warm weather is going to help a lot.  The staff insists that Sunday is definitely the last day - even with tons of snow left to spare.



Closing the first weekend of April, regardless of cover, is pretty much the norm for Burke.  They run out of skiers before they run out of snow.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Closing the first weekend of April, regardless of cover, is pretty much the norm for Burke.  They run out of skiers before they run out of snow.


The only reason that I thought this year might be different is that it would set a precedent for people thinking about booking a spring hotel stay next year.  But you are correct, there is no way they are breaking even right now.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 2, 2015)

Scary thing is even the Lyndon Outing Club still had enough snow to be open through today. 
I'd be more disappointed with Burke closing if I actually had time to go skiing during the next two weekends.


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## fbrissette (Apr 2, 2015)

Wow!  This Q thing is turning into a real disaster.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Wow!  This Q thing is turning into a real disaster.



And yet they STILL don't get it.......


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## yeggous (Apr 2, 2015)

I might go pay them a visit this weekend. Would giving them my business be sending the wrong message?


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## freeski (Apr 2, 2015)

X-Burke


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2015)

yeggous said:


> I might go pay them a visit this weekend. Would giving them my business be sending the wrong message?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



Enjoy it. Then support the local businesses in Lyndon and Burke. East Burke Sports has made some special Burke Mountain hoodies. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Our forum member make those?



LOL! Coffee spewed everywhere... and that was my first thought too! Good job!


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Our forum member make those?


For the record, I don't think that it's cool to plaster the resort with these stickers.  I would much rather that staff be doing something productive rather than removing stickers.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm not sure what is going on with the night skiing application.  On January 16th the State of Vermont sent a letter to Q Burke informing them that their permit application was incomplete.  I don't see that anything has been filed with the state since that letter went out.

The letter is here:
https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/Planning/7C0206-15/Incomplete Letter.pdf


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2015)

I think that the night skiing thing is on permanent hold/not happening according to a discussion I had at that pass holder meeting a couple months ago.
The plan made no sense. IMHO, it would only make sense if there were a couple of lighted intermediate runs offered off of a shortened Willoughby Quad or the Poma. BMA could even use it for nighttime slalom training.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think that the night skiing thing is on permanent hold/not happening according to a discussion I had at that pass holder meeting a couple months ago.
> The plan made no sense. IMHO, it would only make sense if there were a couple of lighted intermediate runs offered off of a shortened Willoughby Quad or the Poma. BMA could even use it for nighttime slalom training.


That's a lot of money spent on engineering for something that isn't going to be pursued.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Word on the street is that Ary has told LI and the St J Academy that the bill for use of the training slope is going to be quite a lot of $$$$ next season.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

What a difference a day makes.  Snow was soft today for sure.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that Ary has told LI and the St J Academy that the bill for use of the training slope is going to be quite a lot of $$$$ next season.


I wonder how much a small snowmaking system at LOC would cost?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I wonder how much a small snowmaking system at LOC would cost?



Especially if the schools pooled their resources.  

St J could always go to Cannon - and take all of the dorm students with season passes there as well.   


.


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Especially if the schools pooled their resources.
> 
> St J could always go to Cannon - and take all of the dorm students with season passes there as well.
> 
> ...



With the things you complain about at Burke, you wouldn't last half a day dealing with Cannon's management. Or conditions.  Or terrain.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> With the things you complain about at Burke, you wouldn't last half a day dealing with Cannon's management. Or conditions.  Or terrain.



Who was talking about my preferences?   We were talking about a high school, not me.  Somebody is just a little argumentative today.  Go have a beer and come back.

And what's your point?  That Burke should tremendously increase fees charged to local high schools?  Uh... Ok...


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Who was talking about my preferences?



_I_ was talking about your preferences.  The clue was when I said "you".


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> _I_ was talking about your preferences.  The clue was when I said "you".



So it was an unprovoked, gratuitous swipe.  You definitely need a beer.


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So it was an unprovoked swipe.  You definitely need a beer.



 Incessant whining is provocation enough.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Incessant whining is provocation enough.



Of the two of us, you're the only one who whined.  Move on already.   Life is too short to get worked up over me.


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Of the two of us, you're the only one who whined.



Now that's hilarious!  



VTKilarney said:


> Life is too short to get worked up over me.



If life was short I could probably tolerate you.  But it's too damn long to deal with it over and over.  And over.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Who would have thought that I'd have such control over your feelings.  


.


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

If that was a question, it's a good one.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> If that was a question, it's a good one.



Lol.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that Ary has told LI and the St J Academy that the bill for use of the training slope is going to be quite a lot of $$$$ next season.
> 
> 
> .



What a Qasshat. Pretty soon nobody will be skiing at Burke. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> _I_ was talking about your preferences.  The clue was when I said "you".



What's that have to do with anything? Let's keep things on topic.


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## Cannonball (Apr 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> What's that have to do with anything? Let's keep things on topic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Good idea. What exactly is the topic that we're keeping it to?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Good idea. What exactly is the topic that we're keeping it to?



Burke 


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## faQ (Apr 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Who was talking about my preferences?   We were talking about a high school, not me.  Somebody is just a little argumentative today.  Go have a beer and come back.
> 
> And what's your point?  That Burke should tremendously increase fees charged to local high schools?  Uh... Ok...



Am am wondering, what are the "fees" for?  I am pretty sure anybody in a high school race program has a season pass, right?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2015)

faQ said:


> Am am wondering, what are the "fees" for?  I am pretty sure anybody in a high school race program has a season pass, right?



That is my understanding.   

In other news, Burke's marketing director has told the Caledonian Record that skier visits are up with "resort sales being on track with the last three years".  She said that they need to close this weekend to convert to summer operations.  The "lifts take a lot of attention to change from ski to bike".


.


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## marcski (Apr 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> She said that they need to close this weekend to convert to summer operations.  The "lifts take a lot of attention to change from ski to bike".
> .



This is news to me.  What attention do you think she is referring to??


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## deadheadskier (Apr 4, 2015)

faQ said:


> Am am wondering, what are the "fees" for?  I am pretty sure anybody in a high school race program has a season pass, right?



Trail rental perhaps?  I wonder if Okemo charged my high school fees back in the day.   I'm guessing no and that they were happy selling the 50 extra season passes to all the team members.  The vast majority of usage by the school was from 2-4 in the afternoon when the mountain was dead anyways.  I didn't race, but I know the school provided all their own gates and coaching.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2015)

Since BMA uses the training slope for race training, is it really costing Q Burke anything to have the high schools there as well?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2015)

marcski said:


> This is news to me.  What attention do you think she is referring to??


They don't even use the Mid-Burke express for mountain biking, so it's a real head scratcher to me.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Trail rental perhaps?  I wonder if Okemo charged my high school fees back in the day.   I'm guessing no and that they were happy selling the 50 extra season passes to all the team members.  The vast majority of usage by the school was from 2-4 in the afternoon when the mountain was dead anyways.  I didn't race, but I know the school provided all their own gates and coaching.



+1

Just shows that Q is all about money. What an stupid decision to cut off his nose to spite his face. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They don't even use the Mid-Burke express for mountain biking, so it's a real head scratcher to me.



There's no doubt some work but not seven weeks worth.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## faQ (Apr 4, 2015)

Sometimes I come down Warrens, I hope I don't get charged extra.  BTW, "Mid-Burke Express is experiencing an electrical problem and currently on delay. We are working to fix the issue and appreciate your patience. Sherburne is operating."  And it's snowing.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2015)

faQ said:


> "Mid-Burke Express is experiencing an electrical problem and currently on delay. We are working to fix the issue and appreciate your patience. Sherburne is operating."



I just came here to post that. I wonder if these problems the MBX has been having is factoring into the hard close date?


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## whiskey jack (Apr 4, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> There's no doubt some work but not seven weeks worth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


 Speaking from experience, there is quite alot of work that goes into preparing the Sherburne Lift for Mountain Biking. 20 chairs are taken off the line, the grips are completely dismantled cleaned and organized for non destructive testing. Line work has to be perfomed at each tower which involves raising the cable off the sheave train and inspecting liners, bearings, bushings, switches and wiring and greasing. If deficiencies are found repairs are made. Both the bottom and top terminal are gone through checking the bearings on all the wheels and sheaves, and all the belts. Cable inspection by an outside entity is performed, and as mentioned above NDT is performed by an outside entity on all grip parts and parts of the chair, gooseneck in particular. Once testing is done on the grips worn parts are replaced and the grips can be reassembled and put on the chairs. Chairs can be put back on the line and when all maintenance is completed the State lift inspector comes and does his thing.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2015)

MBE started loading at 11:30.  


.


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## River19 (Apr 4, 2015)

whiskey jack said:


> Speaking from experience, there is quite alot of work that goes into preparing the Sherburne Lift for Mountain Biking. 20 chairs are taken off the line, the grips are completely dismantled cleaned and organized for non destructive testing. Line work has to be perfomed at each tower which involves raising the cable off the sheave train and inspecting liners, bearings, bushings, switches and wiring and greasing. If deficiencies are found repairs are made. Both the bottom and top terminal are gone through checking the bearings on all the wheels and sheaves, and all the belts. Cable inspection by an outside entity is performed, and as mentioned above NDT is performed by an outside entity on all grip parts and parts of the chair, gooseneck in particular. Once testing is done on the grips worn parts are replaced and the grips can be reassembled and put on the chairs. Chairs can be put back on the line and when all maintenance is completed the State lift inspector comes and does his thing.



And when we throw $8-15K of bikes on a chair, we do appreciate this work............not to mention our sorry asses.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2015)

In this article:  http://vtdigger.org/2015/04/04/regulator-gives-anc-bio-project-partial-clearance/

You see what "really" happened with the Burke project(s) last year:



> The developers’ agreements with the Vermont Regional EB-5 Center for the AnC Bio Vermont and Q Burke Mountain Resort projects were “suspended” on June 27, 2014, according to documents from the state. The center, which is part of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development, also cancelled the West Bowl expansion at Jay Peak Resort.



And.....



> The private placement memorandum for AnC Bio Vermont, a legal document that details the risks and terms of an investment agreement, was approved on March 27. The PPM for Q Burke, which is under construction, has not yet been approved by the department and cannot be “disseminated to investors,” according to a memo from Donegan. The developers say the project is 60 percent completed, and the department agreed last week to push the Q Burke financial review ahead of AnC Bio.



I have to question the propriety of this action:



> In addition, Kelly said Gov. Peter Shumlin had suggested that “the state will cooperate with project developers to issue a joint press release or joint media response within the next few days to clarify and correct inaccuracies that were published by VTDigger in their recent articles.”


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2015)

Looks like MBX had more troubles today.  I hope they figure out the problem.   


.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 5, 2015)

Today was an excellent powder day at Burke. My wife and I had a really good time. There was an Easter egg hunt, and we did quite well. We found several eggs with lift and mountain bike tickets. Since we were limited to redeem two per person, we left with 4 lift tickets for next year and re-hid the eggs with biking tickets and the candy that we did not want. They had a nice brunch in the Tamarack that was worth the $14 given that it included great dessert and coffee / juice.

Say what you want about Q, but his staff presents a great atmosphere and customer experience, at least from this occasional visitor's perspective.

I did see a number of the Fah-Q stickers on trail signs around the mountain. They were hilarious. I did sense a lot of animosity from the regulars.

The lift went down for 30ish minutes around 2:50pm. I threw in the towel then.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Today was an excellent powder day at Burke. My wife and I had a really good time. There was an Easter egg hunt, and we did quite well. We found several eggs with lift and mountain bike tickets. Since we were limited to redeem two per person, we left with 4 lift tickets for next year and re-hid the eggs with biking tickets and the candy that we did not want. They had a nice brunch in the Tamarack that was worth the $14 given that it included great dessert and coffee / juice.
> 
> Say what you want about Q, but his staff presents a great atmosphere and customer experience, at least from this occasional visitor's perspective.
> 
> ...



You're the first I've heard say that the staff made a great atmosphere. On my days there this year I thought they were deadpan if not depressed. Perhaps they were happy because it's the last day?! :lol:


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## Masskier (Apr 6, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Today was an excellent powder day at Burke. My wife and I had a really good time. There was an Easter egg hunt, and we did quite well. We found several eggs with lift and mountain bike tickets. Since we were limited to redeem two per person, we left with 4 lift tickets for next year and re-hid the eggs with biking tickets and the candy that we did not want. They had a nice brunch in the Tamarack that was worth the $14 given that it included great dessert and coffee / juice.
> 
> Say what you want about Q, but his staff presents a great atmosphere and customer experience, at least from this occasional visitor's perspective.
> 
> ...



Agreed,  It was a great way to end the season.  Friday was 60's blue sky, spring skiing at its best, and Sunday was a powder day.  Overall it was one of my top 5 seasons at Burke.  Cold, but lots of powder and packed powder.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

I've said from the beginning of the season that I have quite a bit of respect for the staff, and that I think the staff have tried hard to deliver a good product.  But I can tell you that by the end of the season I observed multiple instances of staff openly mocking Ary in the presence of customers.  Hopefully that situation will improve next season and management and the front line workers will see more eye to eye.


----------



## River19 (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've said from the beginning of the season that I have quite a bit of respect for the staff, and that I think the staff have tried hard to deliver a good product.  But I can tell you that by the end of the season I observed multiple instances of staff openly mocking Ary in the presence of customers.  Hopefully that situation will improve next season and management and the front line workers will see more eye to eye.



Seems like a clear indication that Jr. doesn't have the respect of the staff, and from what I can tell it stemmed from Jr. not respecting the staff on the flip side.  I'm surprised employee engagement isn't at an all time high up there. Again, change was needed and the mountain needed to grow and it couldn't stay the same as that is the definition of insanity, but it would have been very easy to avoid the pothole and crap-shows that Jr found himself in.

We'll see how things go from here.......


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

Fortunately we had a good year when it was all said and done.  If they can improve snowmaking and make the lifts more reliable, next year should also be good from a skiing perspective.  I can accept some dysfunction if the overall product is a quality product.  But I also recognize that you can't count on Mother Nature to deliver a quality product these days.  That's where I would like to see the most attention given during the off season.


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## yeggous (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Fortunately we had a good year when it was all said and done.  If they can improve snowmaking and make the lifts more reliable, next year should also be good from a skiing perspective.  I can accept some dysfunction if the overall product is a quality product.  But I also recognize that you can't count on Mother Nature to deliver a quality product these days.  That's where I would like to see the most attention given during the off season.



The staff was very friendly and helpful. From an outside customer perspective they do a great job. I spotted Ary only once for a couple of seconds at brunch, but did not have a chance to interact with him. I sense way more angst from the regular customers than the staff. This is probably a credit to their professionalism.

I can see the snowmaking and lifts being an issue. Natural snow was plentiful so I didn't get a sense from the snowmaking coverage. The MBX is great, but I understand it went down twice this weekend. That's a Crotched Rocket track record.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

It seems odd to be talking about lift reliability with Burke.  Granted during my time there they had a few issues, but not the ones that they've been having.  Seems odd considering that those are relatively new lifts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

Nice Email


----------



## doublediamond (Apr 6, 2015)

Jesus.  A two-year-old could do a better job with that collage in MS Paint.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 6, 2015)

thankfully Burke has a great raw product and with the hotel it will get more beds in town, especially good considering they'll be ski in/ski out. even though management decisions continue to be perplexing i'm relatively happy with where things are and where they're going. after the snowmaking debacle in december i was nervous it was going to be a torturous year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> thankfully Burke has a great raw product and with the hotel it will get more beds in town, especially good considering they'll be ski in/ski out. even though management decisions continue to be perplexing i'm relatively happy with where things are and where they're going. after the snowmaking debacle in december i was nervous it was going to be a torturous year.



Thank God it snowed.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Thank God it snowed.



Hopefully the next non-snowy year they will have the snowmaking limitations somewhat remedied.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Hopefully the next non-snowy year they will have the snowmaking limitations somewhat remedied.



Yes.  I also hope that they understand that this is a very capital intensive business and that they can't nickle and dime things too much.  From what I have been seeing and hearing, Ari's concern is ONLY the short-term $$$ he can get.  I think he has made some bad decisions for the long term by trying to decrease short-term costs.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (Apr 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes.  I also hope that they understand that this is a very capital intensive business and that they can't nickle and dime things too much.  From what I have been seeing and hearing, Ari's concern is ONLY the short-term $$$ he can get.  I think he has made some bad decisions for the long term by trying to decrease short-term costs.



I'm hopefully it's part 1 of a three phase plan: phase 1) balance the annual operating budget (don't know about this year but I know last year they got rid of a lot of excess legacy and people costs. got people pissed but it had to happen, as you know.). phase 2) get hotel built and find selective improvements/augments/capex to make/spend. phase 3) based on sustainability, figure out what you are or can be when you grow up (may or may not lead to bigger capex spend). that's at least how i'd do it, and besides the perplexing management style, i'd be right where they are within phase 1 (with perhaps renting the snow making capacity in addition, than what they had this year, which hopefully is a no brainer for them next year).


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

Their marketing director said that resort sales were on par with the past three years.  So balancing the budget is not coming from increased revenues.  Those three prior years saw a loss.  At this point, I am not sure what they could cut in order to break even.  

It's definitely going to be crucial for the new hotel to at least break even, because they certainly can't afford to absorb more loss.  But of course the corporate structure is probably more complicated than I am assuming.

I think that the hotel will do quite well in the winter.  The question is how well it does for the remainder of the year.  I've got my fingers crossed.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Their marketing director said that resort sales were on par with the past three years.  So balancing the budget is not coming from increased revenues.  Those three prior years saw a loss.  At this point, I am not sure what they could cut in order to break even.
> 
> It's definitely going to be crucial for the new hotel to at least break even, because they certainly can't afford to absorb more loss.  But of course the corporate structure is probably more complicated than I am assuming.
> 
> I think that the hotel will do quite well in the winter.  The question is how well it does for the remainder of the year.  I've got my fingers crossed.



I dont believe they lost much $ last year, I heard it was (near) break-even, mainly driven by the (~500k-1 million if i recall?) in cost cuts.

edit: granted, this is based on heresay, but then again, most everything else is here based on that, so i'll keep it and just note it as speculation not fact.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I dont believe they lost much $ last year, I heard it was (near) break-even, mainly driven by the (~500k-1 million if i recall?) in cost cuts.


I thought that they lost somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000 - but I could be COMPLETELY mistaken about that.  

Their expenses are probably a little bit higher this year since they have added some front office staff.

These numbers must sound like pocket change to a place like Killington.


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## SkiRaceParent (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that they lost somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000 - but I could be COMPLETELY mistaken about that.
> 
> These numbers must sound like pocket change to a place like Killington.



I agree, small #'s. With that said, $200k loss is not a huge loss. Up near or over a million per year is the kind of loss that would shut the place down after several years. Solving for that was step #1, I believe. And it had to be done (as you said) through cost cuts since revenue is about even.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that they lost somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000 - but I could be COMPLETELY mistaken about that.
> 
> Their expenses are probably a little bit higher this year since they have added some front office staff.
> 
> These numbers must sound like pocket change to a place like Killington.



2003-2004 I was assistant director of F&B at a small ski area in Maryland called Wisp.  At the time, they were doing about 100K skier visits annually.  So, fairly similar numbers to what I assume Burke does.  The ski area, golf course and associated revenue centers did $7M for the year.  $1M of that came during Christmas week.  1 week out of 52 produced 14% of the years revenue.  President's and MLK combined for another $1M. 

I only bring this up to illustrate how critical Christmas week is and how blowing it can easily result in that $200K loss you brought up.  

Burke likely lost money again this year due to their pitiful performance over Christmas and MLK due to lack of open terrain.  I'm guessing whatever money they saved by not renting snowmaking equipment, they lost three times over in reduced revenue.  

If the hotel is complete for the holidays, but they offer a similar on snow product, the financial results could actually be worse.  Who is going to pay huge money to stay in a hotel over the holiday week to ski 12 trails?   Now, you're not only losing money on the ski product, but you're losing it on the lodging product too.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> 2003-2004 I was assistant director of F&B at a small ski area in Maryland called Wisp.  At the time, they were doing about 100K skier visits annually.  So, fairly similar numbers to what I assume Burke does.  The ski area, golf course and associated revenue centers did $7M for the year.  $1M of that came during Christmas week.  1 week out of 52 produced 14% of the years revenue.  President's and MLK combined for another $1M.
> 
> I only bring this up to illustrate how critical Christmas week is and how blowing it can easily result in that $200K loss you brought up.
> 
> ...



BIG + 1 here.  

Burke's ski season is short.  By losing two of three critical holiday weeks you are already behind the 8 ball so to say.  From what I heard President's Week was cold and that drove some away.  They do have "some" summer business now, but I don't think it's as much as it could be.  

I think they may have gone from too many staff to now too few.  Want-ads were up all season.  I think that they could have trimmed some from the payroll initially and made some other changes without torching the house as they did.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

And I don't have any sources anymore regarding revenue figures.  For the past several years they never really said anything.  But if they are saying that they did about the same as the past three years than that is not saying much.  With all the snow that they had and largely primo conditions they should have done better.  Granted the cold was an issue but I think they should have done well this season.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

What's interesting is that skier visits were up.  It looks like skiers spent less money per capita to ski and are perhaps spending less on food and beverages.  They may need to rethink their promotional offers.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's interesting is that skier visits were up.  It looks like skiers spent less money per capita to ski and are perhaps spending less on food and beverages.  They may need to rethink their promotional offers.



Where did you see/hear that skier days are up?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Where did you see/hear that skier days are up?


Their marketing director told the Caledonian Record that skier visits were up and that resort sales were on par with the past three years.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

By the way, there is another nasty letter to the editor about Q Burke in today's Caledonian Record.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

Here is an excerpt from the Letter to the Editor:

So what to do? Our family plans to speak with our wallet. To be honest the only reason we are purchasing season passes next year for our two children is because they are both in the BMA junior program (the BMA relevancy factor).  My wife and I are foregoing season passes next year. If not for BMA we would take all our business elsewhere. Pure and simple.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

Any chance you can post the whole letter?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Any chance you can post the whole letter?


I emailed a copy to you.


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## faQ (Apr 6, 2015)

Some funny comment replies to "end of season" FB post.  


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## faQ (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What's interesting is that skier visits were up.  It looks like skiers spent less money per capita to ski and are perhaps spending less on food and beverages.  They may need to rethink their promotional offers.



I wouldn't put too much faith in any of these numbers. It is an assumption to think any the reporting in the past two years is accurate and even if the data was tracked correctly (which I doubt), I am pretty sure they would say anything they wanted anyway. 


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

faQ said:


> Some funny comment replies to "end of season" FB post.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Here's an interesting one....thinking that the Hotel will be the "silver bullet" is probably shortsighted IMHO:



> hanks Andrew for your reply. Its basic economics. We do not have any amenities like other resorts to help offset or cover cost. We do not have any beds where families can stay. We will lose money if we stayed open, even with the entire mountain covered in deep base of snow. There will not be nor was there ever enough people to justify opening late in the season. We are making smart business decisions that will help us sustain future operations. We hope you understand. With a hotel operation coming on board this year, we should have no problems opening up early and staying open later.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

[Insert foot into mouth]



			
				Customer said:
			
		

> John Waterman The decision to close has nothing to do with snow pack. Fresh snow yesterday. Cold this morning in Burke. More snow than all season. Even ledges is filled in Would have been nice to be open another week-end or two. Thanks.





			
				Little General said:
			
		

> Thanks for your reply John. Decision is based on less snow pack cover and economics. Fresh snow all disappeared with the warm temps. Not cold this morning, its pretty warm here... especially in T-Shirts...





			
				Customer said:
			
		

> John Waterman It's snowing right now.





			
				Educated Customer said:
			
		

> Andrew Pappone Yeah, Burke, not sure why you assume that no one on Facebook is there or knows what the weather is. It is snowing all over the mountains of the north country today. Stick with your economics argument. It makes sense. The weather however, is perfect for skiing.



:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

Here's that latest Letter to the Editor.  I have to admit that I agree with what is said....especially about the culture of the mountain:



			
				Caledonian Record said:
			
		

> What’s wrong
> with Burke?
> To the Editor:
> After reading Saturday’s front
> ...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2015)

Wonder how long until it becomes the QCaladonian Record and they silence the commentary.  :lol:

I bet all such commentary does is harden Arys resolve.


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## mbedle (Apr 6, 2015)

"It is BMA that makes the ski mountain relevant" Really - I find that really hard to believe. Can one of you tell me that this place was that much better 10 years ago. I've never skied there, so maybe it was. Trailboss, the quote you put seems like someone that just wants things to stay the same, and I believe that with the history of this resort, that didn't work out so good in the past.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> "It is BMA that makes the ski mountain relevant" Really - I find that really hard to believe. Can one of you tell me that this place was that much better 10 years ago. I've never skied there, so maybe it was. Trailboss, the quote you put seems like someone that just wants things to stay the same, and I believe that with the history of this resort, that didn't work out so good in the past.



I think that the commentator's point was that BMA is the only reason why Burke is relevant to his family. Honestly BMA is the only reason why Burke is still alive.


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## mbedle (Apr 6, 2015)

Do they give that much money to the place. I don't know much about it, just wondering how much money actually comes in from the school.


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## mbedle (Apr 6, 2015)

Unless BMA goes out of business, its going to be the the same families that come in year in and year out as their kids move through school. In the long run, I got to believe that updating the resort will ultimately (thats going to take some years) make BMA more attractive to kids and more so, their families.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Do they give that much money to the place. I don't know much about it, just wondering how much money actually comes in from the school.



Let's put it this way: one key benefactor BOUGHT the mountain for them in 2000. He later financed large portions of one if not both HSQs. And he "gave" the mountain money for the last round of snowmaking work to help the mountain and BMA. So there is some money behind them....


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2015)

Wonder if Ary has asked BMA to add the Q


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Unless BMA goes out of business, its going to be the the same families that come in year in and year out as their kids move through school. In the long run, I got to believe that updating the resort will ultimately (thats going to take some years) make BMA more attractive to kids and more so, their families.



BMA is NOT the problem; the current President telling paying guests how much he hates BMA and the locals is the problem. It's unfortunate that we lost that epic post from earlier this year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

So someone did some digging and found "the post" from earlier this year.  Here it is for those that missed it:



> Q2 definitely lives on Darling Hill. He straight up told us. My wife and I were very "fortunate" to chat with him at the TamaraQ on Christmas night. We were having dinner and a couple beers.
> 
> By the end of the night, he was initiating conversation with us and talking about many of the topics that are already out there and others. I never sought out to converse with him before. Didn't think anything would come of it. Still believe that too…Doubt the town hall meeting will happen…and if it does, it will be held under the best possible circumstances (new snow, more trails open, decent conditions) to try to deceptively cloak the infrastructure problems along with their unwillingness to admit that they don't fund the snowmaking budget in the same way as in the past.
> 
> ...


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

Q Burke just posted a couple of photos of workers posing in t-shirts on their Facebook page with this comment:
"Cleaning house! So hot in East Burke it's great to wear some t-shirts."

Somebody posted a comment reminding them that 3-4 inches of snow fell overnight.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted a couple of photos of workers posing in t-shirts on their Facebook page with this comment:
> "Cleaning house! So hot in East Burke it's great to wear some t-shirts."
> 
> Somebody posted a comment reminding them that 3-4 inches of snow fell overnight.



Just when we thought that they could not get lamer.....












This is a CLASSIC example of Ari trying to "get back" at one of his customers for yesterday's exchange regarding Ari's dumb comment (re: it's hot outside at Burke when it was snowing and cold).  Sometimes it's just best to watch what you say...admit that the season is over, thank everyone, and leave the stage.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

I feel sorry for the employees who were used as a prop.  Does Ary realize that his comeback doesn't really work when there is tons of snow behind both of the people freezing their asses off in those t-shirts?  The exchange was over.  He should just let it rest.  You now have a pissed of customer and annoyed employees.  What was there to gain?

I think that they need Josh Segal to come in and teach their marketing department a few things.  :flame:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I feel sorry for the employees who were used as a prop.  Does Ary realize that his comeback doesn't really work when there is tons of snow behind both of the people freezing their asses off in those t-shirts?  The exchange was over.  He should just let it rest.  You now have a pissed of customer and annoyed employees.  What was there to gain?



I almost said that.  You know that he came in and said, "hey, come outside and move these pipes for me" just to get back at the guy from yesterday.  Stupid.  Petty actually.


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## faQ (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted a couple of photos of workers posing in t-shirts on their Facebook page with this comment:
> "Cleaning house! So hot in East Burke it's great to wear some t-shirts."
> 
> Somebody posted a comment reminding them that 3-4 inches of snow fell overnight.



So, that was clearly a dig at the comment made yesterday about t shirts. Is today's t shirt post all in good fun or picking a fight?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

faQ said:


> So, that was clearly a dig at the comment made yesterday about t shirts. Is today's t shirt post all in good fun or picking a fight?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I just think that getting into arguments with FB trolls is not good marketing.  It also shows that they did not learn their lesson from earlier this year when the "marketing director" posted a Meme saying, "What's Wrong?  You Mad Bro?"  in response to constructive criticism from a paying customer on FB.  Burke deserves better than this circus.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

faQ said:


> So, that was clearly a dig at the comment made yesterday about t shirts. Is today's t shirt post all in good fun or picking a fight?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I think that with all of the snow on the mountain it's more likely to piss people off than anything else.  I think that people were understanding of the economics, and that they could have left it at that.


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## faQ (Apr 7, 2015)

So much to be said. Calling peeps out on social media. Pretending that conditions warrant closing when only a few days ago they were saying how great they were. Not to mention, if you want peeps to book rooms for April of next year, don't go on about how bad this spring is.  


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

I don't ski on t-shirts.  I ski on snow.  There is a LOT of snow in those photos.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

faQ said:


> So much to be said. Calling peeps out on social media. Pretending that conditions warrant closing when only a few days ago they were saying how great they were. Not to mention, if you want peeps to book rooms for April of next year, don't go on about how bad this spring is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yep.  Exactly.


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## faQ (Apr 8, 2015)

Has anybody been to Jay Peak?  I am wondering if they have workers in t shirts?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2015)

faQ said:


> Has anybody been to Jay Peak?  I am wondering if they have workers in t shirts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Nah, they're still open


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Nah, they're still open



and Steve has class


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

Yet another morning waking up to fresh snow, or as Ary refers to it, "t-shirt weather with bare spots."  







.


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## Smellytele (Apr 9, 2015)

Had about 2" fresh in Central NH as well. Crusty not powder


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

So East Burke is getting a new QSports Bar:



> Tamarack Pub & Grill will remain open these next two weekends, then close for summer cleaning and preparation.  Tamarack Pub and Grill will re-open Thursday, May 7th with our new sports bar theme and plenty of specials to go with it!


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## River19 (Apr 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So East Burke is getting a new QSports Bar:



They can't figure out what they want to be......tapas, brunch, Mexican, Pizza, steakhouse, seafood....total identity crisis.

I guess there are worse things than a sports bar.....of course in Jr's mind he's going...."I already have the TVs so I don't have to spend any money"......


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

I have mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand, it makes a lot of sense to change the space into something that avoids direct competition.  From what I have heard, the Publick House has really put the screws to the Tamarack Grill.  I don't see that changing.

On the other hand, they are changing the space into a bar just in time for biking season when the Tiki Bar is about to open.  So essentially they are changing into something that they will still have direct competition with.  

The best solution is to improve quality and service, not to put pool tables in.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

River19 said:


> They can't figure out what they want to be......tapas, brunch, Mexican, Pizza, steakhouse, seafood....total identity crisis.
> 
> I guess there are worse things than a sports bar.....of course in Jr's mind he's going...."I already have the TVs so I don't have to spend any money"......



Sports Bar with plenty of techno music I'm sure.....


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2015)

Why put money into it at all?  I'm assuming the hotel will have the main year round restaurant once open.  At that point the Tamarack will likely be closed 9 months out of the year.  I don't see the mountain supporting two full service restaurants in the off seasons or summer even with the hotel.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Why put money into it at all?  I'm assuming the hotel will have the main year round restaurant once open.  At that point the Tamarack will likely be closed 9 months out of the year.  I don't see the mountain supporting two full service restaurants in the off seasons or summer even with the hotel.


My assumption is that this is part of the reason it is being converted.  Their plan is to have one full service restaurant (in the hotel) and one bar (at the Sherborne Lodge).


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Why put money into it at all?  I'm assuming the hotel will have the main year round restaurant once open.  At that point the Tamarack will likely be closed 9 months out of the year.  I don't see the mountain supporting two full service restaurants in the off seasons or summer even with the hotel.



You're thinking too logically, DHS.


----------



## WoodCore (Apr 9, 2015)

Maybe it's time to bring in John Taffer and perform a "Bar Rescue"


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My assumption is that this is part of the reason it is being converted.  Their plan is to have one full service restaurant (in the hotel) and one bar (at the Sherborne Lodge).



Maybe.....until the crickets start chirping.  It takes a significant critical mass of customers to support two locations.  Weekends in winter makes sense, but in the future I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tamarack used primarily as a function space when the hotel is done.   

Well........until the masses come for the tennis facilities that is.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe.....until the crickets start chirping.  It takes a significant critical mass of customers to support two locations.  Weekends in winter makes sense, but in the future I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tamarack used primarily as a function space when the hotel is done.
> 
> Well........until the masses come for the tennis facilities that is.



It's Q tennis played with Q rackets.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm an idiot.  The Qzone sports pub is a precursor to the Northeast Kingdom's premier indoor tennis facility that's soon to open.

Totally makes sense now.


----------



## xwhaler (Apr 9, 2015)

Still think an apres bar or lunch spot mid mtn makes sense. I actually like the Tamarack but having someplace closer to Mid Burke and the hotel seems better to me.
I probably missed it in this massive thread but has a formal plan/location been announced yet for the Bear Den?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Still think an apres bar or lunch spot mid mtn makes sense. I actually like the Tamarack but having someplace closer to Mid Burke and the hotel seems better to me.
> I probably missed it in this massive thread but has a formal plan/location been announced yet for the Bear Den?



There is no plan.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> There is no plan.



They will ignore a decision or at least not tell anyone until they actually just tear it down. Avoid conflict until they can't.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

A sports bar should have some arcade games.  I would LOVE to see someone sneak in a Q-Bert arcade game in there!


----------



## River19 (Apr 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A sports bar should have some arcade games.  I would LOVE to see someone sneak in a Q-Bert arcade game in there!



Damn near spit my coffee out.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> They will ignore a decision or at least not tell anyone until they actually just tear it down. Avoid conflict until they can't.



Apparently the powers-to-be realized that there will be a mutiny when they tear it down...hence the delay.  Apparently they are going to "save" the Bear Den.  Whatever that means.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 9, 2015)

I think the Tamarack does decent business in the summer with the Lift Served MTB crowd. It is a convenient gathering place when the lift closes at the end of the day.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 9, 2015)

That maybe so, but I still question the viability of operating two outlets.  Guess we'll find out in 2016


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

At the passholder meeting they inferred that they will be tearing down the Bear Den and "replicating it" somewhere else.  Whatever that means.  They did make it clear that it will still be standing next ski season.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2015)

T-shirt weather with bare spots.


----------



## faQ (Apr 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So East Burke is getting a new QSports Bar:



A sports bar?  I can't to see what it becomes after that. 


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----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2015)

faQ said:


> A sports bar?  I can't to see what it becomes after that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



:lol:


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## burski (Apr 10, 2015)

These people don't know what side is up, nobody locally goes to the Tamarack, they will not go if it changes its identity, everyone knows that Q JR is behind it and no one wants to support him, not for personal reasons more-so because he sticks it to the community when ever he can so they will stick it back to him.  _ I feel bad for the employees its not about them but they get caught in the cross fire._


----------



## River19 (Apr 10, 2015)

burski said:


> These idiots don't know what side is up, nobody locally goes to the Tamarack, they will not go if it changes its identity, everyone knows the a-hole Q JR is behind it and no one wants to support him, not for personal reasons more-so because he sticks it to the community when ever he can so they will stick it back to him.  _ I feel bad for the employees its not about them but they get caught in the cross fire._



True Story.

Haven't been to the rack by choice since it became the Qrack.  I literally walked in one day a while back, heard techno, waved to Roger (he was still there at the time) from the doorway and walked back downstairs and went to the Pizza Man......lol


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2015)

burski said:


> These idiots don't know what side is up, nobody locally goes to the Tamarack, they will not go if it changes its identity, everyone knows the a-hole Q JR is behind it and no one wants to support him, not for personal reasons more-so because he sticks it to the community when ever he can so they will stick it back to him.  _ I feel bad for the employees its not about them but they get caught in the cross fire._



I feel bad for the employees.  This is what happens when you make the business about you and your ego.


----------



## faQ (Apr 10, 2015)

Anyone seen the "getting ready for tonight" FB post?  


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----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2015)

faQ said:


> Anyone seen the "getting ready for tonight" FB post?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Kind of embarrassing to post a video of an empty restaurant and bar.  I doubt that they are going to get any sort of crowd.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2015)

I hear that next year they are upgrading their video system to an iPhone 6.  


.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 12, 2015)

> A sports bar should have some arcade games.  I would LOVE to see someone sneak in a Q-Bert arcade game in there!





River19 said:


> Damn near spit my coffee out.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2015)

You don't see this every day.  An entire condo complex is for sale at the High Meadows condo area.  The complex consists of 6 units, with 4 bedrooms each.  All this can be yours for just over $1.4 million.

http://beginrealty.com/listing/4410042/2426-mountain-rd.-burke-vt-05832/


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 13, 2015)

Tax Bill somewhat surprises me.  Quite reasonable for that much slopeside property.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Tax Bill somewhat surprises me.  Quite reasonable for that much slopeside property.



They may not include school taxes. For a two bedroom condo unit at Jay, we pay nearly 5k in taxes, 90% of which is the school tax.  Vermont is killing the non-residents.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> They may not include school taxes. For a two bedroom condo unit at Jay, we pay nearly 5k in taxes, 90% of which is the school tax.  Vermont is killing the non-residents.



Hate to say it, but it's going to get worse. 


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## halfpintvt (Apr 13, 2015)

The 6 condos have an assessed value of $1,016,000 with an asking price of 1,445,000. A bit of a mark-up. We'll have to wait and see what they go for. The actual taxes for 2014 were $20,802 with 77% of that rate going to the school. In Burke, the non-residential rate is LOWER than the residential rate (43% of of the towns in Vermont have a higher residential rate than non-residential rate!)


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 13, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> The 6 condos have an assessed value of $1,016,000 with an asking price of 1,445,000. A bit of a mark-up. We'll have to wait and see what they go for.



The individual condos prices don't include any land other than maybe a parking spot or two. This listing includes the building and the 2 acres of land. The location of this condo complex may draw the interest of the Q since it is directly adjacent to the new hotel. Potential there for parking expansion.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2015)

Are they used as rentals right now, or does someone have a VERY large family?  

I vote that we look into a possible AZ Ski Club building.  ;-)


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 13, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> The 6 condos have an assessed value of $1,016,000 with an asking price of 1,445,000. A bit of a mark-up)



Are accessed values vs actual values in VT close?  They are not in my area of NH.  There's often a 30ish% difference.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Are accessed values vs actual values in VT close?  They are not in my area of NH.  There's often a 30ish% difference.


Vermont law requires towns to reassess if assessments are more than 10% from fair market value.  Town-wide, Burke's assessments are averaging 102% of fair market value.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Are accessed values vs actual values in VT close?  They are not in my area of NH.  There's often a 30ish% difference.



Not sure for Vermont, but like NH, accessed values are not always tied to actual real estate market values in PA. We use something called a CLR to determine actual market values off of the accessed value.


----------



## halfpintvt (Apr 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Are they used as rentals right now, or does someone have a VERY large family?
> 
> I vote that we look into a possible AZ Ski Club building.  ;-)



The units are used as rentals.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> The units are used as rentals.



And at $1.4M, it would take an occupancy rate and daily rate that I personally don't think is attainable to make that number work from a pure rental property investment.  But what do I know ;-)


----------



## Masskier (Apr 14, 2015)

From Burke's Web site







April progress report: * Roof framing is well underway in the west wing of the Hotel
* Level 5 east walls are currently underway.
* Concrete foundation as well as the structural stell for the entire hotel is complete
* Mechanical, electrical, plumbing rough-in continues throughout both west and east wings.
* Preperation for 2015 site work is in full swing.
* Residential topping concrete slab in the west wing are moving along.
* Commercial area framing is almost complete.

check out the video    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVb86aec_PI


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## River19 (Apr 14, 2015)

It is amazing what Drones have brought to the real estate market as far as opening up great marketing channels, especially for the larger properties.

Time to keep the hundreds of workers hammering away to nail that December opening.....with any luck there will be snow.


----------



## faQ (Apr 14, 2015)

ugh. 


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----------



## fbrissette (Apr 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> View attachment 16541
> 
> ugh.
> 
> ...



The 'Q' is not there at least...


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm so confused......


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> View attachment 16541
> 
> ugh.
> 
> ...



Damn it you blew the surprise!  That's my new tattoo!


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## faQ (Apr 14, 2015)

Ha!  Nothing says world class resort like a tattoo. I hear Vail is on the phone after seeing this FB post!


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2015)

This is what happens after $3 draft night.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This is what happens after $3 draft night.
> 
> 
> .



It's probably either Q's own tattoo or his manager's (as a pledge of allegiance to Q) 


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----------



## Abubob (Apr 15, 2015)




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## Domeskier (Apr 15, 2015)

do I get a prize for being the 4000th post in this thread?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> do I get a prize for being the 4000th post in this thread?




A gift certificate to have that tattoo done on your forearm perhaps?


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> A gift certificate to have that tattoo done on your forearm perhaps?



Err... umm... anyway to make a post disappear?


----------



## faQ (Apr 15, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> Err... umm... anyway to make a post disappear?



Just like a tattoo of anime looking Q bear...nope.


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## faQ (Apr 24, 2015)

On FB, looks like we're back to promoting snow. #neverendingwinter. #springfever. #imfromfloridaandlosingit


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## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2015)

faQ said:


> On FB, looks like we're back to promoting snow. #neverendingwinter. #springfever. #imfromfloridaandlosingit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



He took the picture in a T-shirt (no doubt).


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## darent (Apr 25, 2015)

that is a lot of hotel, I wonder if it will be full in season?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2015)

darent said:


> that is a lot of hotel, I wonder if it will be full in season?



Without Q Jr I'd say more likely; considering how many folks he's pissed off, probably not.


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## faQ (Apr 26, 2015)

Looks like they are looking for a Resort Media Specialist...a good move.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2015)

faQ said:


> Looks like they are looking for a Resort Media Specialist...a good move.



QBurke tattoo optional?

And any word on the local HS ski teams using Burke for training? 


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## DJAK (Apr 29, 2015)

I see..

Head of FB
Head of Retail
Head of Sales
Media Specialist
Events Manager
more...

Hopefully turnover in skilled/career positions trend can reverse. Can't imagine what would cause that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2015)

DJAK said:


> I see..
> 
> Head of FB
> Head of Retail
> ...



Yep.  It is sad.  And at the risk of sounding cynical, I have to agree with the poster who said that perhaps letting go of people and then later rehiring these folks is a lame attempt at "creating jobs" for the EB-5 requirements.


----------



## River19 (May 1, 2015)

Does the Media Specialist get their own QiPhone to do the daily cell phone video shoot?  

Does it come with a dash-cam mount for the "Look we are driving up the road with 1" of packed powder over powder" video?

Sorry, it was too easy......


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2015)

River19 said:


> Does the Media Specialist get their own QiPhone to do the daily cell phone video shoot?
> 
> Does it come with a dash-cam mount for the "Look we are driving up the road with 1" of packed powder over powder" video?
> 
> Sorry, it was too easy......



One job requisite:  must be a fan of techno music.  

And they have now gone for several months without a F&B Manager.  Unreal.


----------



## River19 (May 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> One job requisite:  must be a fan of techno music.
> 
> And they have now gone for several months without a F&B Manager.  Unreal.



But with no one really going to the Tamarack, would anyone notice the lack of F&B manager?


----------



## Domeskier (May 1, 2015)

Who's in charge of the t-shirt pics?


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## burski (May 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And they have now gone for several months without a F&B Manager.  Unreal.



The F&B manager has only been few months, does anyone remember the new website that was going to be rolled out at the start of last season?  Its still only a new landing page with the same inaccurate back up information.  I hope those planning on an upgraded snowmaking system for the upcoming season have back up plans.


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## VTKilarney (May 1, 2015)

You can't make this stuff up.  On their "Weddings" page they have the following testimonial:

"My husband and I had our wedding reception at Burke Mountain on *9.19.09.* The food and the wait staff were second to none. We had a lot of compliments on how great the meal was and we could not have asked for better service.

We would highly recommend Burke Mountain to anyone who is planning a wedding."
- Kellie Largay"


I wonder if previous management appreciates the endorsement?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You can't make this stuff up.  On their "Weddings" page they have the following testimonial:
> 
> "My husband and I had our wedding reception at Burke Mountain on *9.19.09.* The food and the wait staff were second to none. We had a lot of compliments on how great the meal was and we could not have asked for better service.
> 
> ...



Qweddings are so much more awesome. Folks are still speechless. 


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----------



## the original trailboss (May 3, 2015)

And the bullwheel is turning again........


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2015)

Well, the snowmaking update has been released:

http://www.skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/PressRoomImages/Articles/5-5-2015-Snowmaking-Updatesv2.pdf

I'm not sure if this really addresses the real issues...and I don't know what the "mountain's FIS Trail" would be--it could be Dippers, Warren's, or Willoughby.  I assume that they mean Warren's Way.  Just call it what it is.    

Good to see $1.1 million invested.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2015)

Planned day after Thanksgiving opening too.  Very nice


----------



## oldtimer (May 5, 2015)

I am pretty certain this means the HKD dumb towers that are on the upper section of Warren's get replaced by big expensive fan guns.  The HKD's get moved around the top of the mountain to various spots.  Seems like a commitment to the training hill.  

The folks I know have said that last year would have been MUCH better if 
a) they had more compressor horsepower early (i.e RENT DIESELS)
b) they had not frozen up the line over at the base of little dipper
c) gotten more done earlier so they had a better base when the extreme cold killed the water flow in the river and made it so they could not restock the pond.

A lack of guns was not really even on the list.   There were many, many guns sitting idle at any time all winter.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> I am pretty certain this means the HKD dumb towers that are on the upper section of Warren's get replaced by big expensive fan guns.  The HKD's get moved around the top of the mountain to various spots.  Seems like a commitment to the training hill.
> 
> The folks I know have said that last year would have been MUCH better if
> a) they had more compressor horsepower early (i.e RENT DIESELS)
> ...



Exactly.  Throwing money at the wrong things.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2015)

Well in theory they will require less air by having the fan guns.  Hopefully they still rent compressors too.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Well in theory they will require less air by having the fan guns.  Hopefully they still rent compressors too.



I would have preferred to hear that they WILL rent compressors in order to have the maximum capacity rather than throwing in some fan guns on one trail that is reserved largely for one major constituency.  I'd be willing to bet that that "constituency" probably paid for those fan guns too.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2015)

Something is better than nothing.

We'll see how it all works out in 6-7 months.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

VERY disappointed that there is no mention of adding compressor capacity.   




.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2015)

Tough crowd.  They announce a November opening and $1.1M in upgrades with two more upgrades planned and people are still upset?  Not sure if they would announce compressor rentals in a capital improvement announcement anyways.  Never seen another mountain announce what equipment they will be renting for the season.

I'd suggest you all vote with your wallets and ski elsewhere for a season.  That's what I did this year after last year's snowmaking problems at Wildcat.  Turns out their investment worked, so they won my business back.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 6, 2015)

> the first phase of a three-phase snowmaking expansion and upgrade



There may be more compressor capacity in one of the next phases.

The upper mountain booster pump will actually fix the biggest bottleneck for making snow on the upper mountain. It doesn't matter how much air you have up there if there is no water. The combination of the new water booster pump and the fan guns (that don't need air) on the upper mountain. Should allow them to make snow on Upper Warrens and one of the other major upper mtn trails at the same time.

Here is the way I see them approaching the trail rollout next year. 

1. The typical intermediate route of Upper Willoughby-Lower Bear Den-Lower Warrens Way AND an expert route consisting of Shoot-Upper Bear Den-Upper Warren's Way. Maybe throw Lower Fox's Folly into the mix as well.  This will provide both an intermediate and an expert set of trails on the upper mountain.

2. Carriage Rd-Big Dipper-Open Slope AND Upper Warren's Way with the fan guns (That trail takes A LOT of snow to cover thoroughly).

3. Upper Dipper (this would be easier if they ever go through with the rock/stump removal/smoothing process that would allow them to open this trail with 1 foot of snow rather than 4 feet (in some places).

4. Little Dipper, The Gap, Ledges


----------



## oldtimer (May 6, 2015)

I voted with my wallet and bought passes already.  I want the place to succeed.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

Good information about the pump.  It sounds like it's at least a start, which makes sense if the entire plan is going to take three years to implement.


.


----------



## fbrissette (May 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Tough crowd.



When people get burnt, they tend to be cautious.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> When people get burnt, they tend to be cautious.



+1

These guys have lost credibility and now have to re-earn it.  That is not going to be easy.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

Sure, folks can vote with their wallets and A LOT are.  Me included to some limited degree.  I am not recommending them on this site to folks like I used to.  

I think that the bigger point is that the $1.1 m sounds great until you dig into the details and see that they are only partially fixing the problem.  Fan guns are not going to help that much.  And they will help the racing crowd.  I still think that BMA and their "angels" are providing those guns.  And then there is the question as to WHO will be using the training hill.  Q threatened to increase fees on the school using the hill.  Has that happened?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2015)

Right, but like I said, who announces compressor rentals with a capital improvements notice?  No one I've ever seen.  I tend to see things like fromtheNEK does.  If I were a Burke pass holders I'd be thrilled that concrete plans are in place, not just lip service.  Those fan guns will bury the training hill FAST.  That's going to enable much faster terrain expansion elsewhere, especially if they're aiming for a Thanksgiving weekend opening.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2015)

I would have been more excited about the future of Burke if they announced they were spending $1.1M on an executive search committee to fill the position after Jr. is released as well as on re-branding and signing updates to remove the Q.

But maybe that is just me.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

It would have been wise to announce that they are "increasing compressor capacity" even if it is by renting them.  Right now we don't know if they are actually going to rent them even though everyone agrees that they need to.  

Unlike other resorts there is a huge trust issue on top of the operational issues.  Hopefully this project will help reduce the problem if people see results.   


.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Right, but like I said, who announces compressor rentals with a capital improvements notice?  No one I've ever seen.  I tend to see things like fromtheNEK does.  If I were a Burke pass holders I'd be thrilled that concrete plans are in place, not just lip service.  Those fan guns will bury the training hill FAST.  That's going to enable much faster terrain expansion elsewhere, especially if they're aiming for a Thanksgiving weekend opening.



But see, again, context here is huge.  They advertised a November opening back the first season that Q owned the place and they missed that.  Granted it was weather related, but still they missed it.  

As I understand it, the fan guns are going to be on Warren's Way, and it sounds like Upper Warren's Way.  They don't even TRY to cover that portion until after Christmas in a normal year.  So the fan guns don't help you open early there.  

The biggest concern is the compressor capacity.  That is the undisputed issue with why all of the sudden they can't do jack.  Sure the water pumping issue will be helped, but before Q they were able to do a lot with what they had.  

So yes, saying "we're renting compressors" is not something one would normally see from a resort, but considering the history here a single line about "we're increasing our air capacity" would have been appropriate and showed that they understood the problem.  

The other factor that is lurking is that Q cannot find anyone to work for him.  I know that the snowmaking crew last year was pretty small.  Burke's system requires labor and if they don't have labor they are not going to be as efficient and fast.



River19 said:


> I would have been more excited about the future of Burke if they announced they were spending $1.1M on an executive search committee to fill the position after Jr. is released as well as on re-branding and signing updates to remove the Q.
> 
> But maybe that is just me.



:lol:


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2015)

Only message board geeks know about the air pressure issue, so basically no one.  You don't market to the lowest common denominator.

This is likely the single largest off season investment in snowmaking Burke has ever made yet you all still bitch.   It's like reading Highwaystar in a Killington thread.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

I think caution is very warranted after their last "big improvement" announcement: http://www.skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/Articles/2012-Snowmaking-PR2-2.pdf


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Only message board geeks know about the air pressure issue, so basically no one.  You don't market to the lowest common denominator.
> 
> This is likely the single largest off season investment in snowmaking Burke has ever made yet you all still bitch.   It's like reading Highwaystar in a Killington thread.



Actually, it was pretty widely known by the passholders that was the issue.  

And bitching?  No.  Not at all.  Looking at this critically, absolutely.  That's what we've done here for over a decade, DHS.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 6, 2015)

I'd qualify being critical of no announcement of equipment being rented as bitching, yes.

$1.1M is nothing to sneeze at for an area like Burke.

 I hope to make it back next season to see the results.  Perhaps I didn't ride the lifts with the right pass holders, but the one visit I had (and it was in mid January just after the debacle) people weren't saying, "oh the compressors weren't rented."

I just think you all are pre-judging and spewing negativity before they've even had a chance to prove themselves.  I bet things are much better next year.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd qualify being critical of no announcement of equipment being rented as bitching, yes.



That is NOT my point; my point being the simple question as to if they are really fixing the problem?  We will see.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

St. Johnsbury Academy is moving their operations to New Hampshire, including dorm student recreational skiing.   


.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd qualify being critical of no announcement of equipment being rented as bitching, yes.
> 
> $1.1M is nothing to sneeze at for an area like Burke.
> 
> ...



I can agree with this for the most part, however I think given the track record of the current management, it seems fine to still bet on under-delivering and hope to be wrong.  Rarely do I hope to be wrong anywhere in life, but this is one of those cases.

If we saw the primary driver of much of the animosity removed (ie. Jr.) then I think it would go a long way to changing some of the perception and skepticism associated with anything coming from "Mgt".  A year ago, Sr. & Stenger appeared to have some decent street cred and when they spoke it was given a bit more credibility than when Jr. alone said anything.  Now, a year later, from where I sit, given the items in the news regarding Sr. and Stenger and what has happened (or not happened as the case may be) in Newport, I lump them all in the boat of "actions will speak louder than press releases".  

So for now, I will smile and nod and politely stick to "we sure will see how that turns out".


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> St. Johnsbury Academy is moving their operations to New Hampshire, including dorm student recreational skiing.
> 
> 
> .




Wow.  Isn't there a heavy Asian contingent at SJA?  If so, how does that play out with the EB-5 investor targets......interesting indeedy....


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 6, 2015)

St J Academy to - 
Cannon = 33 miles/30 minutes
Burke = 16 miles/25 minutes

Sticking it to the Q=?$?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> St J Academy to -
> Cannon = 33 miles/30 minutes
> Burke = 16 miles/25 minutes
> 
> Sticking it to the Q=?$?



I think it shows just how much money was at stake.


----------



## dlague (May 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> St. Johnsbury Academy is moving their operations to New Hampshire, including dorm student recreational skiing.
> 
> 
> .



Might be in large part due to the changes they are making on the Mittersill side and the dedicated racing trails which will include snowmaking?  Maybe not so much to take away from Q.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 6, 2015)

It was in direct response to the bill they were presented with by Q.   


.


----------



## dlague (May 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It was in direct response to the bill they were presented with by Q.
> 
> 
> .



Ouch!


----------



## steamboat1 (May 6, 2015)

Seems to be a bit of money for ski areas catering to these young racing programs. Inverness at Mt. Ellen opens weeks before the rest of the mountain just for the racing program. At Killington Upper Bunny Buster, Highline & often Needles Eye trails are dedicated to these same programs. Main Street at Stowe is another example. Cannon seems to be trying to capitalize on the income these programs generate with the Mittersill expansion. Q on the other hand seems to have burnt to many bridges with these programs. New fan guns won't help.


----------



## SkiRaceParent (May 7, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Seems to be a bit of money for ski areas catering to these young racing programs. Inverness at Mt. Ellen opens weeks before the rest of the mountain just for the racing program. At Killington Upper Bunny Buster, Highline & often Needles Eye trails are dedicated to these same programs. Main Street at Stowe is another example. Cannon seems to be trying to capitalize on the income these programs generate with the Mittersill expansion. Q on the other hand seems to have burnt to many bridges with these programs. New fan guns won't help.



Let's get things straight here. This is St Johnsbury Academy not a ski academy. BMA (Burke) and GMVS (Mt. Ellen) are to St J Academy in ski racing what Duke is to Plymouth State in Basketball. No comparison. The money is in the elite academy and national and jr. programs, not the varsity high school programs. I do think it's ashamed though that St J Academy  was priced out but it's not because Q isn't embracing high end ski racing and where profitability can come from in that sport for a resort.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Let's get things straight here. This is St Johnsbury Academy not a ski academy. BMA (Burke) and GMVS (Mt. Ellen) are to St J Academy in ski racing what Duke is to Plymouth State in Basketball. No comparison. The money is in the elite academy and national and jr. programs, not the varsity high school programs. I do think it's ashamed though that St J Academy  was priced out but it's not because Q isn't embracing high end ski racing and where profitability can come from in that sport for a resort.



I think it's a bit more complicated than that with Q's move.  From what I understand, Burke never charged LI or SJA a significant trail fee.  The expectation was that they would buy passes and it was a goodwill gesture from Burke to the local community.  Goodwill obviously is not in Q's vocabulary.  My understanding was that he sent a post-dated invoice to these schools for an absurd amount of money to use the facility this season.  After Stenger intervening, he withdrew it but threatened to do the same for 2015-2016.  He didn't disappoint.  I had heard a while back that SJA was considering moving and they did.  I know that my alma mater, LI, is in a bind here as well.  Real nice guy.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2015)

I wonder if any families will switch entirely to Cannon if they have a high school aged child that skis for St. Johnsbury Academy.

Keep in mind that Q isn't losing just the racers.  He will be losing all of the dorm students as well.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 7, 2015)

There's probably some hotel revenue lost there from visiting family as well.   Definitely not a good look for Q and an area that struggles with skier visits.


----------



## DoublePlanker (May 7, 2015)

FAIL at dealing with the desperate need for skier visits for long term viability of the ski area.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> There's probably some hotel revenue lost there from visiting family as well.   Definitely not a good look for Q and an area that struggles with skier visits.



Sounding a bit negative there, DHS  .  Agree with the point though that this is not a good move.


----------



## dlague (May 7, 2015)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Let's get things straight here. This is St Johnsbury Academy not a ski academy. BMA (Burke) and GMVS (Mt. Ellen) are to St J Academy in ski racing what Duke is to Plymouth State in Basketball. No comparison. The money is in the elite academy and national and jr. programs, not the varsity high school programs. I do think it's ashamed though that St J Academy  was priced out but it's not because Q isn't embracing high end ski racing and where profitability can come from in that sport for a resort.



I don't think anyone ever stated that they they were a ski a academy - and who cares if they are not.  The fact is, they used to use Burke and now it is being made too expensive and as a result their ski team with be based out of Cannon.  FAIL!


----------



## deadheadskier (May 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounding a bit negative there, DHS  .  Agree with the point though that this is not a good move.



Because that was negative news. Announcing a $1.1M investment as the first part of three stage snowmaking system upgrade is positive news.  It might not be what everyone wants right away, but it's a step in the right direction.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 7, 2015)

I really wonder what Lyndon Institute will do.  If I had to guess (and this is only a guess), they will suck it up for this year and in the meantime they will explore the possibility of putting in a basic snowmaking system at the Outing Club.  Maybe I'm naive about the cost of a small, basic system, though.  Too bad Lyndon State College is having serious budget issues.  They would make a good partner, especially if there was a terrain park.


----------



## oldtimer (May 7, 2015)

So there is the system-  may be able to cobble up something that works with creativity, energy and good will from the likes of Cannon and Loon.  BUT then you have the annual costs:
-- energy for snowmaking
-- fuel and personnel for groomers
-- increased maintenance on the T-bar if it is used more
etc-


I would LOVE to see it, but I fear it would be orders of magnitude more $ than the training fee.  My fear is that they can no longer offer an Alpine ski team.  It is too long a drive to Jay or Cannon for after school.  They great coaches and a growing program but $ are a real issue at L.I. both for the institution and for the families.  

They need an angel.




VTKilarney said:


> I really wonder what Lyndon Institute will do.  If I had to guess (and this is only a guess), they will suck it up for this year and in the meantime they will explore the possibility of putting in a basic snowmaking system at the Outing Club.  Maybe I'm naive about the cost of a small, basic system, though.  Too bad Lyndon State College is having serious budget issues.  They would make a good partner, especially if there was a terrain park.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 7, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> So there is the system-  may be able to cobble up something that works with creativity, energy and good will from the likes of Cannon and Loon.  BUT then you have the annual costs:
> -- energy for snowmaking
> -- fuel and personnel for groomers
> -- increased maintenance on the T-bar if it is used more
> ...



Agree on all points.


----------



## halfpintvt (May 7, 2015)

Has any one heard anything about Bill Stenger coming back to Burke to take over running the Mountain (instead of Little A) ?


----------



## oldtimer (May 7, 2015)

NO-  but I was encouraged that his name was on the press release that went out to pass holders today. 

 Also-  that confirmed that the fan guys are going to Upper Training Hill.


----------



## River19 (May 8, 2015)

Stenger would be an improvement over Jr......then IMHO an empty chair would also be an improvement, at least it wouldn't bring negative press to the place.  That being said Stenger hasn't exactly been having a good year either......but he at least has some semblance of business sense.

Sad that a local high school and state college can't work a deal on the mountain right in their backyard and have to travel across state lines potentially to another hill.  As we have always said, Jr. is probably the worst PR/Marketing nightmare I have been able to watch from the cheap seats.......


----------



## deadheadskier (May 8, 2015)

Okay, I take everything back.   Slam away.  I asked if they'd be renting air compressors on facebook and this is the response I got.  I'd suggest people go over there and tell him on facebook that there are two components to a snowmaking system; air and water.  Both needed to be addressed.  I'm sure the snowmaking will be better, but if he's going to be too cheap to rent compressors, I bet he'll still be cheap on hiring labor and running the guns. 

Good Morning Ryan. Rather than renting compressors, part of this first phase is fixing our booster bump house which will solve our limitations in getting water to the upper mountain guns. This is a permanent fix versus temporary.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 8, 2015)

I more interested in the confirmation that the new hotel will indeed have a pool!


----------



## Masskier (May 8, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I more interested in the confirmation that the new hotel will indeed have a pool!



From their facebook page

 "Thanks,  having updates on projects is appreciated. One question on the hotel; a  "destination" Hotel without a pool??  Know you plan tennis/pool area at  some point but also know that a pool, even a small one, is considered a  "must" for many families. It had been included in original plans, still  a possibility??"  Like · Reply · Yesterday at 6:52am




 
Burke Mountain Resort Yes  there will be a pool and jacuzzi associated with the hotel next to the  gym. It will be open year round. I'm sure your family will enjoy it.  Thank you for your concern.
Like · 1 · Yesterday at 8:04am


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2015)

Masskier needs a special sarcasm warning.

One has to wonder if BMA is really the entity responsible for both the new fan guns and the water pump.  With those items installed, their training hill will be taken care of.  In other words, how much of this year's work is thanks to BMA and how much is thanks to Q Burke?  Perhaps Ski Race Parent can let us know.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 8, 2015)

Bill Stenger was at Burke today. As I was driving home, I happened to see him driving north on Rt 122 by the intersection near the covered bridge, back toward Jay Peak.

Looks like the top Facebook post confirms this


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## thetrailboss (May 9, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Bill Stenger was at Burke today. As I was driving home, I happened to see him driving north on Rt 122 by the intersection near the covered bridge, back toward Jay Peak.
> 
> Looks like the top Facebook post confirms this



His post is a positive step


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## halfpintvt (May 9, 2015)

Bill Stengers post on the Burke Mountain Facebook page:

  I hope you are pleased with the snow making commitments we have made for next season. Contracts have been signed and we are underway! The results you will see will be snowmaking as early in November as temperatures allow and a volume of production that will open more trails earlier in the season.
Today’s technology is based on the most volume of water using compressed air as efficiently as possible. 
  The SMI guns are large volume guns that require no compressed air because each tower gun has its own fan system which acts like its own compressor. 
  With this SMI system we are able to focus our compressed air system on the upper mountain. With the new booster pump system we will be able to run as many as 60 guns at a time and deliver more water at better pressure to the summit trail system.
This means more snow earlier and over more trails. This has been a long standing need at the resort and this need is now being met.
  I promise you an aggressive operational effort with this system and what you’ll see is more snow, and more trails opened earlier. What you will also see is a season lasting as long as possible. We plan to be open into mid-April 2016. We are excited about this expansion and what it will mean to you, our most valued customers and ambassadors.
  Sincerely, *Bill Stenger.
General Partner*
Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center
President, Jay Peak Resort.

Bill is back in Town! Yee Haw!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 9, 2015)

Now just send Lil Q somewhere else.......


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## faQ (May 9, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Bill Stengers post on the Burke Mountain Facebook page:
> 
> I hope you are pleased with the snow making commitments we have made for next season. Contracts have been signed and we are underway! The results you will see will be snowmaking as early in November as temperatures allow and a volume of production that will open more trails earlier in the season.
> Today’s technology is based on the most volume of water using compressed air as efficiently as possible.
> ...



I am not trying to be negative, etc, etc... sincerely. But last time " bill was back in town" he gave us the Q.  Q me once...


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## LONGBOARDR (May 10, 2015)

I would not read into this too far.
IMO Bill is just making sure all looks nice for prospective Eb-5 investors to the Burke project as he is the lead on that front.
Lil Q is and will stay in charge, again IMO.


  I hope you are pleased with the snow making commitments we have made for next season. Contracts have been signed and we are underway! The results you will see will be snowmaking as early in November as temperatures allow and a volume of production that will open more trails earlier in the season.
Today’s technology is based on the most volume of water using compressed air as efficiently as possible. 
  The SMI guns are large volume guns that require no compressed air because each tower gun has its own fan system which acts like its own compressor. 
  With this SMI system we are able to focus our compressed air system on the upper mountain. With the new booster pump system we will be able to run as many as 60 guns at a time and deliver more water at better pressure to the summit trail system.
This means more snow earlier and over more trails. This has been a long standing need at the resort and this need is now being met.
  I promise you an aggressive operational effort with this system and what you’ll see is more snow, and more trails opened earlier. What you will also see is a season lasting as long as possible. We plan to be open into mid-April 2016. We are excited about this expansion and what it will mean to you, our most valued customers and ambassadors.
  Sincerely, *Bill Stenger.
General Partner*
Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center
President, Jay Peak Resort.

Bill is back in Town! Yee Haw![/QUOTE]


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## faQ (May 11, 2015)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I would not read into this too far.
> IMO Bill is just making sure all looks nice for prospective Eb-5 investors to the Burke project as he is the lead on that front.
> Lil Q is and will stay in charge, again IMO.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I am guessing season pass sales are down and Stenger is doing his "everything will be wonderful, follow me..." thing. 


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## River19 (May 11, 2015)

In speaking with someone "close" to mountain ops, they said "good things will be happening soon up there".......very cryptic, but I'll sit back and have a beer and watch whatever it is unfold.

In other news, that 114 bridge work is a bit of a beast, necessary but will certainly alter patterns of deliveries to the mountain etc. for a few weeks.

KT trails are silly dry right now, saw about 4' of mud in a quick 10miles with my wife on Saturday.


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## thetrailboss (May 11, 2015)

River19 said:


> In speaking with someone "close" to mountain ops, they said "good things will be happening soon up there".......very cryptic, but I'll sit back and have a beer and watch whatever it is unfold.
> 
> In other news, that 114 bridge work is a bit of a beast, necessary but will certainly alter patterns of deliveries to the mountain etc. for a few weeks.
> 
> KT trails are silly dry right now, saw about 4' of mud in a quick 10miles with my wife on Saturday.



Which bridge are they working on?


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## River19 (May 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Which bridge are they working on?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



One right in front of East Burke Mkt and the Burke Public House.


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## thetrailboss (May 11, 2015)

River19 said:


> One right in front of East Burke Mkt and the Burke Public House.



Ouch.  That sucks.


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## from_the_NEK (May 11, 2015)

Rt 114 is closed there for the next 3 weeks. It is a new approach to bridge construction in VT since Irene. They discovered it is easier and cheaper to go in and close a bridge and replace it all at once in a short time frame rather than screwing around with lane closures and dragging the replacement out for months. 
They did put in a temporary pedestrian/biker bridge. Unfortunately, there is not enough room there for a temporary car bridge.


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## thetrailboss (May 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Rt 114 is closed there for the next 3 weeks. It is a new approach to bridge construction in VT since Irene. They discovered it is easier and cheaper to go in and close a bridge and replace it all at once in a short time frame rather than screwing around with lane closures and dragging the replacement out for months.
> They did put in a temporary pedestrian/biker bridge. Unfortunately, there is not enough room there for a temporary car bridge.



So it's a long detour around it I imagine?  Off the top of my head you could go towards Kirby off the Mountain Road and then down by the covered bridge and/or maybe off the Burke Hollow Road.


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## from_the_NEK (May 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So it's a long detour around it I imagine?  Off the top of my head you could go towards Kirby off the Mountain Road and then down by the covered bridge and/or maybe off the Burke Hollow Road.



All depends on what you are driving. Going between Lyndon and Burke Mtn, regular cars and pickups can use the Hunger Mtn Rd/Maple Ln/Kirby Rd (50 yards of it). However, I think that route is subject to some weight restrictions. Same with the Kirby Rd/Ridge Rd.

Coming from the north if you want to get to the south end of East Burke village (market, EB Sports, etc.) You can grab White School off of 114 to Burke Green Rd, to Burke Hollow Rd.

Truck routes on the other hand end up sending traffic all the way up through Charleston!

http://eburkebridge.vtransprojects.vermont.gov/


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## halfpintvt (May 11, 2015)

Just to clarify, the "temporary bridge" is open to one lane of vehicle traffic thru May 25th. 

Per the bridge website: 

  Construction will start in April 2015. *The bridge will be closed for three weeks – May 26 to June 15* to enable removal of the old, installation of the new bridge. Traffic will periodically be reduced to one lane during daytime hours in the weeks before and after closure. The project will be completed by mid-August, 2015.


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## MEtoVTSkier (May 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, the snowmaking update has been released:
> 
> http://www.skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/PressRoomImages/Articles/5-5-2015-Snowmaking-Updatesv2.pdf
> 
> ...




Page not found, did you save a copy of the PDF ?


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Page not found, did you save a copy of the PDF ?



Here is a working link: http://www.skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/PressRoomImages/Articles/5-5-2015-Snowmaking-Updates.pdf


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## MEtoVTSkier (May 12, 2015)

Thank you!


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

Here is a link to the season pass prices, including all tiers over the course of the year:
http://www.skiburke.com/assets/Uploads/sptgridpublic.jpg

A couple of thoughts:
1) For a couple, there is almost no incentive to purchase a pass before May 12th.  The couple would only save $31 as compared to purchasing the pass up to October 12th. 
2) How many corporate passes do they sell?  They are 2.5 times the price of an adult pass.  That's a hefty premium for a pass that only allows one skier at a time to use it.
3) They have sold between 30 and 54 "Q Burke only" college passes.  You can infer this based on the tier that is presently for sale.


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## ironhippy (May 12, 2015)

I'll probably never be in a position to buy a Burke pass, but that seems very confusing.
What's the difference between a Burke pass and a Judge pass? Why so many tiers, is that just based on when you buy the pass?
Also, why bother charging for a toddler pass?

It seems you would want to make it as straightforward as possible


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

The tiers are based on when you buy the pass.  That's very normal in the industry.  

Except... the college passes have a different tier system that is based solely on how many are sold.

The Judge Pass is good for Burke and Jay Peak.


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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2015)

ironhippy said:


> I'll probably never be in a position to buy a Burke pass, but that seems very confusing.
> What's the difference between a Burke pass and a Judge pass? Why so many tiers, is that just based on when you buy the pass?
> Also, why bother charging for a toddler pass?
> 
> It seems you would want to make it as straightforward as possible



Agreed.  They say that it works....apparently.


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## ironhippy (May 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The tiers are based on when you buy the pass.  That's very normal in the industry.
> 
> Except... the college passes have a different tier system that is based solely on how many are sold.
> 
> The Judge Pass is good for Burke and Jay Peak.



I am familiar with tiered pricing (as you mentioned most resorts have it), they way they have it laid out isn't completely obvious.

An extra 150$ for a jay pass seems like a great deal.


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

Ary has been fired????   Holy sh*t!!!!


.


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## vermonter44 (May 12, 2015)

What!?!?


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## ScottySkis (May 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary has been fired????   Holy sh*t!!!!
> 
> 
> .



I due q job I nonimate me .


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

Apparently Stenger wasn't just visiting.   


.


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## vermonter44 (May 12, 2015)

If so, this could be great news!


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## River19 (May 12, 2015)

Holy Crap......this praying thing really works........OK, onto praying for a pricing error giving me a new Ram Diesel rig for $100......

In all seriousness, that sounds like the best change they could have made, like a friggin' exorcism......


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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary has been fired????   Holy sh*t!!!!
> 
> 
> .



Huh?!


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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2015)

Where did you see this?


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## VTKilarney (May 12, 2015)

A person who works in upper level management at Jay Peak told me.


.


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## deadheadskier (May 12, 2015)

Is it permanent this time? 

I mean, wasn't it about a year ago that it was announced Ary was moving on to do the Qairplane thing and Steve from Jay was going to be GM for both mountains?   Then within a couple months, Steve was out, Ary was back in and hiring someone from Fastenal to be GM?  Fastenal guy gets fired and then it was the GM to be revealed later PR fiasco?

Is he taking the Q with him on the way out the door?


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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Is it permanent this time?
> 
> I mean, wasn't it about a year ago that it was announced Ary was moving on to do the Qairplane thing and Steve from Jay was going to be GM for both mountains?   Then within a couple months, Steve was out, Ary was back in and hiring someone from Fastenal to be GM?  Fastenal guy gets fired and then it was the GM to be revealed later PR fiasco?
> 
> Is he taking the Q with him on the way out the door?



Agreed.  And I think that Steve only lasted two weeks or so.  

Believe this story when I see it.


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## River19 (May 13, 2015)

It would be met with optimism, I would argue more than $1.1M in snow-making on the training hill......

Like I said someone hinted to me that good things were going to happen soon, but I didn't think it would be this, and frankly I don't think they would have been "in the know" on this necessarily, but who knows.


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## LONGBOARDR (May 13, 2015)

If this is the case, I would imagine a real "spinny" communique would be forthcoming shortly.
I take the Q's to be prideful people and would be surprised that they would let this leak out in such a manner.
Remember that  Q sr owns Q resorts which owns Burke mt and that Q jr is president and CEO.
Even if there is a managerial change, I  would expect Q jr to remain as Titular head of the mt.


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## from_the_NEK (May 13, 2015)

:-o Whoa






I wonder if St J Academy pulling up stakes and heading to NH is what finally put the situation over the top? When the Academy made that decision, I'm sure there was a well worded letter that went out to the top level administration at Burke and Jay explaining why the school had decided to change their venue for skiing activities.


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## VTKilarney (May 13, 2015)

I wonder if they are being invited back.  


.


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## oldtimer (May 13, 2015)

with every hour that goes by without some official word I become more skeptical that Jr has left the building.


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## River19 (May 13, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> with every hour that goes by without some official word I become more skeptical that Jr has left the building.



Agree.


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## VTKilarney (May 13, 2015)

All of the sudden Q Burke has started reaching out to locals.  The poster looks much more professional than what we have seen in the recent past.  It looks like a lot of stuff that Jay Peak puts out:


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> All of the sudden Q Burke has started reaching out to locals:
> 
> View attachment 16862



They are still running with that dumb "Q-Burke" thing.  

I wonder how many spam/virus Emails they are going to get now that they have burned so many bridges?  :lol:


----------



## fbrissette (May 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> All of the sudden Q Burke has started reaching out to locals.  The poster looks much more professional than what we have seen in the recent past.  It looks like a lot of stuff that Jay Peak puts out:


Agreed.  This has Jay Peak written all over it.


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## dlague (May 13, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.  This has Jay Peak written all over it.



right down tot he word Provisions!  Kind of like Jay Peak Provisions and General Store


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> All of the sudden Q Burke has started reaching out to locals.  The poster looks much more professional than what we have seen in the recent past.  It looks like a lot of stuff that Jay Peak puts out:



I caught the add on the radio this morning. I sent in an email for my photography.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 13, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.  This has Jay Peak written all over it.



What?  You guys don't like the iPhone videos with techno music?


----------



## fbrissette (May 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> What?  You guys don't like the iPhone videos with techno music?



Personally I prefer iPhone videos of guys who can't drive on barely snow-covered mountain roads.  I also like videos of empty bars.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 13, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Personally I prefer iPhone videos of guys who can't drive on barely snow-covered mountain roads.  I also like videos of empty bars.



Well, those too.  I just saw their photos of Facebook of their "work" on the Tamarack to make it a "sports bar theme" and was scratching my head asking, "why?"

I'm also disappointed that the attached advertisement does not say "from the greater Q-Burke Community".  But that camp is pretty small.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 13, 2015)

There is an article in Thursday's Caledonian Record.  The official line is that Stenger is helping out in a partnership with Ary Jr.  That's not what my source tells me. I don't expect them to publicly say he was kicked to the curb, but who knows to what degree Stenger has taken charge.  What's clear is that Ary wasn't cutting it on his own and that the cavalry had to be called in.


.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 13, 2015)

Right, but as I said, same thing happened last year.  What makes people believe it will be different this year?

And is Bill enough or do locals need confirmation that Ary is completely gone?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Right, but as I said, same thing happened last year.  What makes people believe it will be different this year?
> 
> And is Bill enough or do locals need confirmation that Ary is completely gone?



+ 1 big time.  They need to reestablish credibility.  In this case, they need to state unequivocally that Ary has moved on.  Sure, save some face, but assure your stakeholders that he has moved on.  They don't have to bring out Ary's head on a plate, but be clear as to what is going on.  My feeling is that Dad and Jr. are fighting to keep Jr. there out of pride while Bill and company are pointing to the business reasons as to why him continuing on is just dumb.


----------



## oldtimer (May 14, 2015)

Agreed-   it is simple:: If Q-jr is in the building the employee morale will suck and we the stake holders will be sure we are about to get it again.  This seems like same old/same old to me.



thetrailboss said:


> + 1 big time.  They need to reestablish credibility.  In this case, they need to state unequivocally that Ary has moved on.  Sure, save some face, but assure your stakeholders that he has moved on.  They don't have to bring out Ary's head on a plate, but be clear as to what is going on.  My feeling is that Dad and Jr. are fighting to keep Jr. there out of pride while Bill and company are pointing to the business reasons as to why him continuing on is just dumb.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2015)

You have to wonder what skier visits were like this year.  Something tells me that they weren't as high as Stenger thought they should be.

My (uneducated) guess is that this will be a two step process.  A "partnership" followed by a new job opportunity for Ary in a couple of months time.


----------



## oldtimer (May 14, 2015)

I love your optimism.  



VTKilarney said:


> You have to wonder what skier visits were like this year.  Something tells me that they weren't as high as Stenger thought they should be.
> 
> My (uneducated) guess is that this will be a two step process.  A "partnership" followed by a new job opportunity for Ary in a couple of months time.


----------



## faQ (May 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, those too.  I just saw their photos of Facebook of their "work" on the Tamarack to make it a "sports bar theme" and was scratching my head asking, "why?"
> 
> I'm also disappointed that the attached advertisement does not say "from the greater Q-Burke Community".  But that camp is pretty small.



Getting people in the area to go to the Tamarack is going to be hard at this point.  I know I don't go there anymore for dinner because there is a bad vibe and it is a way of me voting with my wallet.  I live here and love skiing here so I am not going to drive an hour to go to Jay or Cannon but there are plenty of good options for dinner (Pub, Tiki/Food Truck/ Sweet Basil).  Even the Mid Burke pizza night isn't the same and a lot of people have stopped going to that also.  I am confident that many others feel this way.

As far as the whole Stengers-in-town/ more-hands-on, thing...hopefully some good ol' quality time with Jr. will shed some light on daily operations/interactions.


----------



## River19 (May 14, 2015)

faQ said:


> Getting people in the area to go to the Tamarack is going to be hard at this point.  I know I don't go there anymore for dinner because there is a bad vibe and it is a way of me voting with my wallet.  I live here and love skiing here so I am not going to drive an hour to go to Jay or Cannon but there are plenty of good options for dinner (Pub, Tiki/Food Truck/ Sweet Basil).  Even the Mid Burke pizza night isn't the same and a lot of people have stopped going to that also.  I am confident that many others feel this way.
> 
> As far as the whole Stengers-in-town/ more-hands-on, thing...hopefully some good ol' quality time with Jr. with shed some light on daily operations/interactions.



we used to go to the Rack a couple times per month at least, haven't been there since Jr. started really mucking things up.  Add to that the last few years the food was "meh" and very overpriced for the quality and execution.  So we always stuck with the burgers if we had to eat there.

With what Mike's got going on downtown during the summer and the Publick house, it is a hard draw to pull people up the mountain.  if they aren't in the bike park, they are eating and drinking "downtown".  If another viable option opens/re-opens in E. Burke, it will be even harder.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 14, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.  This has Jay Peak written all over it.



Yeah, stylistically, it definitely appears they're using the same vendor Jay Peak is.


----------



## Masskier (May 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> we used to go to the Rack a couple times per month at least, haven't been there since Jr. started really mucking things up.  Add to that the last few years the food was "meh" and very overpriced for the quality and execution.  So we always stuck with the burgers if we had to eat there.
> 
> With what Mike's got going on downtown during the summer and the Publick house, it is a hard draw to pull people up the mountain.  if they aren't in the bike park, they are eating and drinking "downtown".  If another viable option opens/re-opens in E. Burke, it will be even harder.



There is a new restaurant schedule to open in July in East Burke


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## thetrailboss (May 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, stylistically, it definitely appears they're using the same vendor Jay Peak is.



No surprise


----------



## River19 (May 14, 2015)

Masskier said:


> There is a new restaurant schedule to open in July in East Burke



Well that is good news. In the River Garden space?


----------



## LONGBOARDR (May 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> we used to go to the Rack a couple times per month at least, haven't been there since Jr. started really mucking things up.  Add to that the last few years the food was "meh" and very overpriced for the quality and execution.  So we always stuck with the burgers if we had to eat there.
> 
> With what Mike's got going on downtown during the summer and the Publick house, it is a hard draw to pull people up the mountain.  if they aren't in the bike park, they are eating and drinking "downtown".  If another viable option opens/re-opens in E. Burke, it will be even harder.



In all fairness, don't blame Q  JR for meh foods. That is also the case at Jay IMO. When the tower bar first opened we used head there for jay burgers all the time and they were decent.  Now even properly cooked burgers are crap, grizzly compressed pucks. a notch below SYSCO grade. JVI and Jay Tavern serve meats from Tonys (Braults slaughterhouse Troy,VT) good on them for locally sourced great quality meats. With exception of the pizza place which is consistent in quality Jay food is not a bargain nor a pleasurable dining experience.


----------



## Masskier (May 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well that is good news. In the River Garden space?



No, right next to the Tiki Bar and the Public House.

On another note, I went to the Anc Bio ground breaking today.  Had a chance to speak to some of the key people from Jay.  They're pretty psych to be more involved at Burke.


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## River19 (May 15, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No, right next to the Tiki Bar and the Public House.
> 
> On another note, I went to the Anc Bio ground breaking today.  Had a chance to speak to some of the key people from Jay.  They're pretty psych to be more involved at Burke.



Psyched?  Well they certainly have plenty of upside as most of the downside has already been captured.......

Any official word on Jr moving on?


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## from_the_NEK (May 15, 2015)

No official word yet but the locals were buzzing about it last night in East Burke.


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## faQ (May 15, 2015)

I still see him around and have heard he has had at least one temper tantrum. Bill held him to his bosom, smoothed his hair and said "shhhhhhh, there, there".


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Big Wave Dave (May 15, 2015)

as usual in light of the Cal Record I come here for scuttlebutt. to add what information I know, season rentals for burke next winter are a hto commodity. Does anyone think that a dynamic exists at burke (or did last winter anyway... lets hope not permanent) where locals stay away but they are starting to draw more from the more populated areas to the south? I really think so.


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## faQ (May 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> No official word yet but the locals were buzzing about it last night in East Burke.



Any specifics to share?


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## Boardguy (May 15, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> as usual in light of the Cal Record I come here for scuttlebutt. to add what information I know, season rentals for burke next winter are a hto commodity. Does anyone think that a dynamic exists at burke (or did last winter anyway... lets hope not permanent) where locals stay away but they are starting to draw more from the more populated areas to the south? I really think so.



I would agree as I have also heard that the winter seasonal rental market is very good and units are already spoken for. Locals have little reason to rent at the moutain so it follows that the demand is coming from farther afield.


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## deadheadskier (May 15, 2015)

I think the point is that winter seasonal renters from afar don't fill restaurant seats in the off season.   Ever been to Killington during summer?  No town / locals, place is dead.  Ludlow and Okemo down the road is MUCH busier during the off season.

Burke needs as much local support as possible to be viable year round.  If they only kick ass during winter months, they will always have to import staff to operate.


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## Boardguy (May 16, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke needs as much local support as possible to be viable year round.  If they only kick ass during winter months, they will always have to import staff to operate.



I don't think anyone would argue that. With the doom and gloom tone of this thread though it is nice to hear that seasonal winter rentals are strong. Have to start somewhere. Granted the supply of rentals available are limited but hey I'll take it. Lots of moutain bikers in E. Burke today.

Not too much going on in Loon during the off season there either.


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## machski (May 16, 2015)

Boardguy said:


> Not too much going on in Loon during the off season there either.



Seriously?  There is a lot going on at Loon in the off seasons.  I would say it is one of the busier NE ski resorts all four seasons.


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## Boardguy (May 17, 2015)

Hey maybe I have not hit it when it is really busy or it is my perception of busy. I was up there for a Motorcycle thing in late August years ago and that weekend it was busy for sure. Other than that I have stopped in on my way north in mid June, once in July and Labor Day and was just surprised that there were not more people around. One Columbus Day weekend stop was somewhat cowded. My visits to Lincoln in the later fall and spring have been similar, lack of crowd wise, but in my mind that is to be expected for that time of year. Many stores empty of customers and resturants closed etc. I know they have the train rides and Pinzgaur tours etc. so there must be more people around to utilize then, I just have not seen it during my stops. The Conway area on the other hand is always insane with crowds when I have been there. Again perhaps it is just my timing.


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## machski (May 17, 2015)

Well, Conway is way more than a ski resort town, especially in the summer.  So yeah, Loon not as busy.  But compared to many other pure ski resort town/areas, Lincoln stays quite busy.  Loon has built up a good variety of summer attractions and events and Lincoln is central to that side of the whites.  My guess is it gets even busier there as south Peak development is really kicking into high gear again.


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## Cannonball (May 17, 2015)

Lincoln is much, much busier in the summer than the winter. It's no contest.  Right now is the slow time of year.


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## ablb (May 17, 2015)

At the Tamarack tonight for the new menu and its limited but quite good. Service was excellent for a change. A nice change.  Word from staff is that Ary is no longer involved in the day to day operations.


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## ablb (May 17, 2015)

No the building to left of Tiki driveway. The Foggy Goggle.


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## thetrailboss (May 17, 2015)

ablb said:


> At the Tamarack tonight for the new menu and its limited but quite good. Service was excellent for a change. A nice change.  Word from staff is that Ary is no longer involved in the day to day operations.



A good start hopefully 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (May 18, 2015)

ablb said:


> At the Tamarack tonight for the new menu and its limited but quite good. Service was excellent for a change. A nice change.  Word from staff is that Ary is no longer involved in the day to day operations.



Good dining experience and Ary gone?  Coincidence?


.


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## River19 (May 18, 2015)

ablb said:


> No the building to left of Tiki driveway. The Foggy Goggle.



Interesting.  Great name.  I guess it is better than "The Clammy Chamois".......


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## deadheadskier (May 18, 2015)

Great name, but somewhat unoriginal.  I know of at leather two others; Sunday River and Seven Springs both have restaurants with that name.


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## River19 (May 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Great name, but somewhat unoriginal.  I know of at leather two others; Sunday River and Seven Springs both have restaurants with that name.



Well, that settles it.....name should be changed to "The Stiff Pole".....carry on.....


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## thetrailboss (May 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Great name, but somewhat unoriginal.  I know of at leather two others; Sunday River and Seven Springs both have restaurants with that name.



+1


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## VTKilarney (May 19, 2015)

Q Burke is definitely trying to repair its image with the locals.  This Thursday they are having a grand-reopening at the Tamarack that they have labeled "Community Night".  I'm not at all sure what makes it a "community" night other than the name, but it at least shows that they are making an effort to repair the damage that Q Jr created.


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## River19 (May 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke is definitely trying to repair its image with the locals.  This Thursday they are having a grand-reopening at the Tamarack that they have labeled "Community Night".  I'm not at all sure what makes it a "community" night other than the name, but it at least shows that they are making an effort to repair the damage that Q Jr created.



I think the apparent removal of Jr. from Day to Day Ops and these types of olive branches etc. might have been what our "friend" we spoke with was hinting at regarding "good things are going to be happening very soon up there".

If all signs say they are trying and have finally made the cathartic move they needed to make then I think the skeptics like myself should give them a cautious chance.  I can possibly buy a beer from them and see what they have going on.   But I'm not jumping into the deep end right yet.....

If they continue to reach out and mend fences then in 2 years they could be in a very good place potentially.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> I think the apparent removal of Jr. from Day to Day Ops and these types of olive branches etc. might have been what our "friend" we spoke with was hinting at regarding "good things are going to be happening very soon up there".
> 
> If all signs say they are trying and have finally made the cathartic move they needed to make then I think the skeptics like myself should give them a cautious chance.  I can possibly buy a beer from them and see what they have going on.   But I'm not jumping into the deep end right yet.....
> 
> If they continue to reach out and mend fences then in 2 years they could be in a very good place potentially.



Agree.  Boy I sure hope that the Ary Era is over.  He did a lot of damage that was completely unnecessary and made no benefit for the mountain.  I hope that this is the beginning of a period of healing.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 19, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope that this is the beginning of a period of healing.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


>



Too funny.


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## River19 (May 19, 2015)

It is interesting, the more I think about it.....how long did Ary take to really eff things up?  1.5-2 years give or take?  I usually figure that it takes twice as long to make it most of the way back in situations like this.  But I think, as we have said all along, most people really want the mountain to succeed and understand change (ie. hotel etc.) was necessary to avoid the definition of insanity, so hopefully if they play their cards right, by this time next year we can say mostly positive things about what is happening on the mountain.


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## VTKilarney (May 19, 2015)

He messed things up as soon as he told Kingdom Trails to pound sand.  From that point on he was fighting a losing battle.   


.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2015)

River19 said:


> It is interesting, the more I think about it.....how long did Ary take to really eff things up?  1.5-2 years give or take?  I usually figure that it takes twice as long to make it most of the way back in situations like this.  But I think, as we have said all along, most people really want the mountain to succeed and understand change (ie. hotel etc.) was necessary to avoid the definition of insanity, so hopefully if they play their cards right, by this time next year we can say mostly positive things about what is happening on the mountain.



Completely agree.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 20, 2015)

Posted to Facebook:

Walk the talk. SMI was onsite today to begin marking installation points for the polecat and super polecat snow making guns on the training hill. Our snowmaking team has a preliminary schedule developing with construction beginning in the next two weeks. We'll continue to keep you posted as things progress but exciting stuff for sure!


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## oldtimer (May 20, 2015)

*Ary Sightings?*

Does Ary still have a presence on Mtn Road?  or he is "on vacation" as this lovefest continues?


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## River19 (May 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Posted to Facebook:
> 
> Walk the talk. SMI was onsite today to begin marking installation points for the polecat and super polecat snow making guns on the training hill. Our snowmaking team has a preliminary schedule developing with construction beginning in the next two weeks. We'll continue to keep you posted as things progress but exciting stuff for sure!




This post has a different feel to it.....kicking it off with that phrase has a meaning behind it....we'll see.

If Ary was still driving things we would have had a shitty cell phone video of a stake in the ground with surveyors tape on it with techno in the background......


----------



## faQ (May 20, 2015)

I saw him headed up mtn road a couple days ago.  My understanding is that he's still "there".


----------



## thetrailboss (May 20, 2015)

I got an Email today extolling the virtues of the Q Burke Bike Park.  :roll:  Still some presence.......


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## oldtimer (May 20, 2015)

Not surprised, but I will repeat my earlier thinking.  If he is there, he is the leader (it is after all their families $)--   everything else is window dressing.  We KNOW that he does not have the best interest of 3 of his 4 constituencies at heart-  the employees, the local community, and the customers  (arguably he thinks he has the best interest of #4, ownership, at heart).  No amount of Bill S. training is going to fix that.



faQ said:


> I saw him headed up mtn road a couple days ago.  My understanding is that he's still "there".


----------



## the original trailboss (May 20, 2015)

If he is still there the vibe won't change - guaranteed !


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## thetrailboss (May 20, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Not surprised, but I will repeat my earlier thinking.  If he is there, he is the leader (it is after all their families $)--   everything else is window dressing.  We KNOW that he does not have the best interest of 3 of his 4 constituencies at heart-  the employees, the local community, and the customers  (arguably he thinks he has the best interest of #4, ownership, at heart).  No amount of Bill S. training is going to fix that.



+ 1.  He has pushed SJA out.  LI is next.  Why, why?


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## steamboat1 (May 21, 2015)

River19 said:


> If Ary was still driving things we would have had a shitty cell phone video of a stake in the ground with surveyors tape on it with techno in the background......



Betcha that's all it amounted to today.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 22, 2015)

Did anyone attend the "community night" at the Tamarack Grill?


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## VTKilarney (May 22, 2015)

Here is a photo they posted on Facebook of a new menu item:


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## River19 (May 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a photo they posted on Facebook of a new menu item:
> 
> View attachment 16919



Partially cooked pizza dough with some salad greens on it?

Awesome......really?  Jr. is that you?


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## ablb (May 22, 2015)

That's flatbread and it was good. Jr was no where to be found. They did a nice job with the renovations.


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## River19 (May 22, 2015)

ablb said:


> That's flatbread and it was good. Jr was no where to be found. They did a nice job with the renovations.



Good to hear they did a nice job on the renovations......

And good to hear Jr was no where to be found.....


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## ablb (May 22, 2015)

All new tables on deck too. Service was good again and staff seem happy. The downhill biking is opening this weekend ahead of schedule, and Ideride posted they will be adding new trails over the summer. Seems positive to me. I can also report rental market for summer is far better than last year at this time.


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## ablb (May 22, 2015)

Guess it was downhill later...when Art arrived.


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## ablb (May 22, 2015)

Ary


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2015)

River19 said:


> Good to hear they did a nice job on the renovations......
> 
> And good to hear Jr was no where to be found.....



Nice. Keep the positive vibes going!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## faQ (May 22, 2015)

ablb said:


> Guess it was downhill later...when Art arrived.



wait...what?  q showed up?


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## ablb (May 22, 2015)

Yes...guess later on and friend (local) said two hours to get his food.


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## deadheadskier (May 22, 2015)

I'm not sure how his presence could cause that unless he hopped behind the grill and can't cook volume.  

Sounds like it got busier than expected and they were short staffed at many positions.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 22, 2015)

ablb said:


> Yes...guess later on and friend (local) said two hours to get his food.



Huh?  How is that possible?


----------



## VTKilarney (May 23, 2015)

There were printable coupons for a free entree, so I can see why it was busy that night.   


.


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## ablb (May 23, 2015)

It would make sense to me that if you anticipated it would be busy you would staff appropriately. We were there early and it was fine. I would go back again. Bike park opens today. Will see how busy it is.


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## deadheadskier (May 23, 2015)

I've opened a lot of restaurants and been to a lot of openings of others.  Sometimes even if you are staffed appropriately and have decent training, you can go down in flames the first few nights, especially with adding free food into the mix.  It takes time to get everyone into a groove.  It's usually best to do a soft opening for a few days without advertising to get some rhythm.  Then do your grand opening.


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## ablb (May 23, 2015)

They did a soft opening earlier in the week, which we attended. It was good but only about three tables occupied. Hoping it gets better. I for one would like to see them succeed.


----------



## AdironRider (May 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure how his presence could cause that unless he hopped behind the grill and can't cook volume.
> 
> Sounds like it got busier than expected and they were short staffed at many positions.



Or this thread has turned into one big group think experience. 

Two hours sounds like an embellishment to me personally. Maybe two hours they were there in total, but from order to getting your meal? We were both F&B guys at one time, I've never even seen delays that bad. Not even close. 

I'm not arguing Ary is not incompetent, but seriously, not everything is the guys fault, and I doubt it took two hours to get some burgers or whatever.


----------



## ablb (May 23, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Or this thread has turned into one big group think experience.
> 
> Two hours sounds like an embellishment to me personally. Maybe two hours they were there in total, but from order to getting your meal? We were both F&B guys at one time, I've never even seen delays that bad. Not even close.
> 
> I'm not arguing Ary is not incompetent, but seriously, not everything is the guys fault, and I doubt it took two hours to get some burgers or whatever.



I did not say it was his fault.  Service issues at Tamarack is not news. Based on two visits in the last week I believe they are making positive changes.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 23, 2015)

If management is the same, I don't see how there will be a change other than in the decor and menu.  Haven't we been here before?  But I am hoping for the best.  This summer will be the real test.


----------



## River19 (May 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If management is the same, I don't see how there will be a change other than in the decor and menu.  Haven't we been here before?  But I am hoping for the best.  This summer will be the real test.



Wondering if there will be a wind hold today......lol


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> Wondering if there will be a wind hold today......lol



:lol:

I was surprised on my visit as to how many lift issues they had on my visit....between wind and electrical issues on the Sherburne.  They NEVER had that many issues.  Granted the Willoughby would have an issue every now and then.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> Wondering if there will be a wind hold today......lol



We're trying to have a yard sale today and it is turning into more of a chase things across the yard sale


----------



## River19 (May 23, 2015)

There is a yard sale around the corner from me on Lily Pond as well......a few going on today......just got back from a ride myself, it was nice but windy when riding up and over Darling Hill......


----------



## ablb (May 23, 2015)

No wind hold for downhilling. Decent crowd no lines but steady. Bike Patio not open yet.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2015)

ablb said:


> No wind hold for downhilling. Decent crowd no lines but steady. Bike Patio not open yet.



Any Q sightings?


----------



## ablb (May 23, 2015)

No Q sightings.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2015)

I heard that Ary's office has been cleaned out.


----------



## River19 (May 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I heard that Ary's office has been cleaned out.



Pictures or it didn't happen.......lol

Joking aside, normally I feel bad when someone loses their gig, but in this case it has been obvious from the start that this was not the right person for the job.  I'm sure he will be successful doing something as time moves on......but his "learning experience" in Burke wasn't exactly a resume builder.


----------



## burski (May 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I heard that Ary's office has been cleaned out.



Are there any rumors out there to who is taking over, I had heard early this spring that his military buddy who had taken over as GM was fired (I assume by Q JR), so it would seem there is no one steering the ship at this point.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2015)

Todd Gagnon was the general manager - although he didn't make much of a presence as far as being in the public eye.  His LinkedIn page says that he last worked at Q Burke in April, 2015. https://www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-gagnon/84/802/28b

He was in a tough situation.  I hope he does well in the future.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2015)

I just  noticed this line from Gagnon's description of his job at Q Burke:
"Assisted in resolving problems and complaints with customer service issues regularly."

How true...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 29, 2015)

The Qubicle is vacant?


----------



## ablb (May 29, 2015)

LOL. He's still here because he flew over my house today


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 29, 2015)

Stenger was in Burke again today.


----------



## River19 (May 31, 2015)

ablb said:


> LOL. He's still here because he flew over my house today



What does Junior fly?  Plane from Caledonia airport?


----------



## ablb (Jun 1, 2015)

Yes. There were also some aerial photos of Burke on the FB page.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 4, 2015)

http://www.wcax.com/story/29239883/leahy-proposes-eb-5-changes



> ...and making sure the program is limited to rural areas with high unemployment.



Interesting. Sounds like he is trying to kill the urban area competition that projects in VT are facing.


----------



## faQ (Jun 5, 2015)

So what's the deal with Q. I still see him heading up mtn rd quite often?  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## River19 (Jun 5, 2015)

faQ said:


> So what's the deal with Q. I still see him heading up mtn rd quite often?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Here's the thing, if that dude is still in any capacity involved in operations of any piece of the Q-Bert mountain or hotel etc. then I think there still is an issue there.  Unless he had a Christmas Carol like transformation I think he just needs to move the heck on....go play with his father's other businesses elsewhere in the state.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2015)

River19 said:


> Here's the thing, if that dude is still in any capacity involved in operations of any piece of the Q-Bert mountain or hotel etc. then I think there still is an issue there.  Unless he had a Christmas Carol like transformation I think he just needs to move the heck on....go play with his father's other businesses elsewhere in the state.



+1


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----------



## mbedle (Jun 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> Here's the thing, if that dude is still in any capacity involved in operations of any piece of the Q-Bert mountain or hotel etc. then I think there still is an issue there.  Unless he had a Christmas Carol like transformation I think he just needs to move the heck on....go play with his father's other businesses elsewhere in the state.



Given he has a background in hotel management, I would guess that is one place he could do some good. It doesn't appear like they are looking for a hotel manager, which may explain why he is still around.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 10, 2015)

Where has he worked as a hotel GM prior?


----------



## River19 (Jun 10, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Given he has a background in hotel management, I would guess that is one place he could do some good. It doesn't appear like they are looking for a hotel manager, which may explain why he is still around.



I'm guessing there are other folks with hotel/resort management experience that could be had.....this fish is no good, throw him back in the lake.

He could be a Hilton brother for all I care......look at what he has done and how he has responded when unfiltered......enough...


----------



## faQ (Jun 10, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Given he has a background in hotel management, I would guess that is one place he could do some good. It doesn't appear like they are looking for a hotel manager, which may explain why he is still around.



I think his dad sent him to "train" somewhere in Europe. Sounded like a brief internship to me. 


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----------



## Masskier (Jun 10, 2015)

I see things are pretty much the same here.  Same couple of people still whining.

FYI, Lots of things happening at the mountain.  The GM for the hotel was hired and started a few months ago.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 10, 2015)

Why no announcement?

I agree that exciting things are going on.  Ary being given the boot is a good example.


----------



## faQ (Jun 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I see things are pretty much the same here.  Same couple of people still whining.
> 
> FYI, Lots of things happening at the mountain.  The GM for the hotel was hired and started a few months ago.



I wouldn't exactly call the recent posts whining, but whatever you call it, it caused information to surface.  I didn't know a GM was hired.  Is Army-buddy still there?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 10, 2015)

faQ, I agree.  There has been as little whining in this thread as I have seen in ages.  I guess some people just can't be pleased.  

I got a chuckle after just reading this quote that Ary gave to the Caledonian Record in November, 2014:
“You have to perform,” Quiros explained in a Friday interview. “If you are evaluated on your performance and your performance is not up to standards, you will be replaced.” 

Whoops!


----------



## River19 (Jun 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I see things are pretty much the same here.  Same couple of people still whining.
> 
> FYI, Lots of things happening at the mountain.  The GM for the hotel was hired and started a few months ago.



Well aware of the things happening at the mountain.......Who's whining?


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 11, 2015)

I am not whining.  BUT I would like to know if Ary still has any authority on the mountain.  Masskier knows perfectly well the Ary has not been a success in terms of management and customer service.  NONE of the company's constituencies have been well served by his tenure in East Burke.  It may prove that his family's investment in the mountain is good for the mountain company and East Burke and that will be great.  But his tenure has not improved the chances of that being as good as it could be.  

I would be much more positive if I knew that Ary was no longer a decision maker w/r/t any aspect of the operations of Burke Mountain and the new hotel.  He has directly hurt many.



VTKilarney said:


> Why no announcement?
> 
> I agree that exciting things are going on.  Ary being given the boot is a good example.


----------



## River19 (Jun 11, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> I am not whining.  BUT I would like to know if Ary still has any authority on the mountain.  Masskier knows perfectly well the Ary has not been a success in terms of management and customer service.  NONE of the company's constituencies have been well served by his tenure in East Burke.  It may prove that his family's investment in the mountain is good for the mountain company and East Burke and that will be great.  But his tenure has not improved the chances of that being as good as it could be.
> 
> I would be much more positive if I knew that Ary was no longer a decision maker w/r/t any aspect of the operations of Burke Mountain and the new hotel.  He has directly hurt many.




Bingo !!!!

I think the theme here has been pretty consistent.....pulling for the mountain and community success in general and knowing that one barrier has been Jr.  That ain't whining.....that's pointing out the well documented opportunity and the primary architect of distrust and scorn from the local community.  

But hey, truth to one person is whining to another.....


----------



## dlague (Jun 11, 2015)

I some fashion I feel bad for Ary with all the disdain, however, I think many on here do want Burke to succeed and are looking forward to improvements and he was not making it happen operationally.  That being said, some of the changes that are coming are not what many really wanted but are probably necessary to increase traffic speaking of the Hotel and Conference Center as well as the Indoor Aquatic and Tennis facilities.  Separating Burke from the community in some respects was not wise in my opinion.

Adding Mid Burke Express was a huge improvement,  the new hotel will have amenities that will eliminate the need to use the Sherburne part of the resort IMO since it is a slight PITA to get from there to MBE and there is litte to offer over there.  The nice thing - their glades are great and that will not change outside of more skier traffic which could suck.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2015)

If taking issue over Ary's management decisions is whining, I wonder if Masskier will tell Stenger that he just became the biggest whiner out there?  I highly doubt it.


----------



## faQ (Jun 11, 2015)

Can someone tell me/ remind me, is the army buddy GM still there?  


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----------



## oldtimer (Jun 11, 2015)

complete answer back at post #4199-




faQ said:


> Can someone tell me/ remind me, is the army buddy GM still there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 11, 2015)

Post #4199:



VTKilarney said:


> Todd Gagnon was the general manager - although he didn't make much of a presence as far as being in the public eye.  His LinkedIn page says that he last worked at Q Burke in April, 2015. https://www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-gagnon/84/802/28b
> 
> He was in a tough situation.  I hope he does well in the future.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 12, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I see things are pretty much the same here.  Same couple of people still whining.
> 
> FYI, Lots of things happening at the mountain.  The GM for the hotel was hired and started a few months ago.



Pot call kettle black.  

And this doesn't advance the discussion.


----------



## Cannonball (Jun 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Pot call kettle black.
> 
> And this doesn't advance the discussion.



Nor does this.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 12, 2015)

What discussion are you talking about?

This whole thread sucks.

Couldn't really give a FF.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 12, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> What discussion are you talking about?
> 
> This whole thread sucks.
> 
> Couldn't really give a FF.



That's nice.  Thank you for sharing.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That's nice.  Thank you for sharing.


No problem


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 15, 2015)

to add nothing to nothing I agree with steamboat willy this thread does suck


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> to add nothing to nothing I agree with steamboat willy this thread does suck



Not all of it, but most of it.    This post is a contribution to the sucking part of the thread.  

Can't wait for winter to come back.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> to add nothing to nothing I agree with steamboat willy this thread does suck



#840


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2015)

Any progress on the snowmaking work?  Pics anyone?


----------



## dlague (Jun 15, 2015)

Everything coming out of Burke is about mountain biking at this time!

However there is this little morsel



> Sharing a little sunshine for this dreary day. Arriving this afternoon: two giant spools of power cables for the new guns being installed on the training hill. We're moving right along.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2015)

dlague said:


> Everything coming out of Burke is about mountain biking at this time!



Interesting.  Anything more about the Hotel?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 15, 2015)

They recently posted that it's on track to open in December.

I head through the grapevine that Ary Jr. may sill have a role in food and beverage.  Has anyone else heard this?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They recently posted that it's on track to open in December.
> 
> I head through the grapevine that Ary Jr. may sill have a role in food and beverage.  Has anyone else heard this?



He needs to move on.  (Cue the broken record)


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2015)

Good timing:



> Congratulations to Melissa Martel and Jack Smith who are the winners of our Be First Contest for May and April!
> 
> Melissa and Jack have won a 2 night / 3 day Adventure Package at the new Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center scheduled to open December 2015.  Our Be First Campaign will be announcing a new winner every month until opening date.  Congratulations again, we will be contacting you directly with complete details.
> 
> ...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I head through the grapevine that Ary Jr. may sill have a role in food and beverage.  Has anyone else heard this?



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w70RQLtdVeU" target="_blank">


----------



## Masskier (Jun 15, 2015)

For those who haven't seen the hotel in a while.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtrRkUdZI9A


----------



## River19 (Jun 15, 2015)

Masskier said:


> For those who haven't seen the hotel in a while.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtrRkUdZI9A



It is coming along........


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 15, 2015)

Who cares?


----------



## Edd (Jun 16, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Who cares?



You, clearly. I definitely care, as well. Pretty anxious to see what they do,


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> It is coming along........



They still have a long ways to go.  But the slated opening is not for another six months and that is a lot of time.


----------



## River19 (Jun 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> They still have a long ways to go.  But the slated opening is not for another six months and that is a lot of time.



And here's the thing.....I can absolutely see the one side that is further along being the portion open in December with the main lobby etc. and the second wing being finished several weeks/months later.

If it were me, as soon as those common areas and some rooms are ready....."I'm Open for Business".....as long as I can guarantee the ongoing work doesn't disturb the renters......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> And here's the thing.....I can absolutely see the one side that is further along being the portion open in December with the main lobby etc. and the second wing being finished several weeks/months later.
> 
> If it were me, as soon as those common areas and some rooms are ready....."I'm Open for Business".....as long as I can guarantee the ongoing work doesn't disturb the renters......



I noticed that the wing southern/western wing is much further along.  Interesting.  I think it was smart to focus on getting one wing done before the other so that they could have a soft opening if needed.


----------



## River19 (Jun 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I noticed that the wing southern/western wing is much further along.  Interesting.  I think it was smart to focus on getting one wing done before the other so that they could have a soft opening if needed.



Plus I rarely see a commercial building project that doesn't have a phased completion, rare is it that a resort is 100% built when it welcomes its first guest.  Whether it is finishing up the peripheries (ie. pool, clubhouse, restaurant, bar etc.) they will usually open to guests to get some $ through the front door.


----------



## the original trailboss (Jun 16, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Who cares?


If you don't care why do you keep watching and posting on this thread ? There are plenty of other threads to hold your attention...


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 17, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> If you don't care why do you keep watching and posting on this thread ? There are plenty of other threads to hold your attention...


Because this thread is at the top with bright blue lettering all the time.

Make it go away.


----------



## ablb (Jun 17, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Because this thread is at the top with bright blue lettering all the time.
> 
> Make it go away.



Unsubscribe


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 17, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Because this thread is at the top with bright blue lettering all the time.
> 
> Make it go away.



Better yet, keep posting your pointless complaints about how this thread complains too much (which sometimes it does) and help boost the post count toward 5000!


----------



## River19 (Jun 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Better yet, keep posting your pointless complaints about how this thread complains too much (which sometimes it does) and help boost the post count toward 5000!



Which will also....drum roll please......keep it "at the top with bright blue lettering all the time"......

Just sayin'


----------



## witch hobble (Jun 17, 2015)

Bump.

For the stoke.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 17, 2015)

Bump again. 
The new website is up for testing. It may be intermittent with the old version for a few days while they work out the kinks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Bump again.
> The new website is up for testing. It may be intermittent with the old version for a few days while they work out the kinks.



Is it QBurke.com ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 17, 2015)

And interesting that all references to the resort refer to *B*urke except for the Hotel, Campground, and Bike Park.


----------



## vermonter44 (Jun 17, 2015)

Hopefully they're slowly trying to fade out the Q, rather than keeping it. Would be a huge step in the right direction


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 17, 2015)

vermonter44 said:


> Hopefully they're slowly trying to fade out the Q, rather than keeping it. Would be a huge step in the right direction



This is really exciting news.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And interesting that all references to the resort refer to *B*urke except for the Hotel, Campground, and Bike Park.



I'm not sure that is 100% the case - many places on the website still reference Q Burke or Q Burke Mountain Resort. The home page does reference only Burke - nice attempt to appease the locals who took offense to the Q being added to the resorts name.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jun 18, 2015)

The home page has the Q Burke logo right on the top.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jun 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And interesting that all references to the resort refer to *B*urke except for the Hotel, Campground, and Bike Park.


I dont see that all.The Q is all over that website.


----------



## dlague (Jun 18, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I dont see that all.The Q is all over that website.



On the landing page it is just the logo with the Q all other references are Burke only but as you go through links the Q is pretty evident!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 18, 2015)

Webcam link now takes you to the landing page...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2015)

dlague said:


> On the landing page it is just the logo with the Q all other references are Burke only but as you go through links the Q is pretty evident!



Right.  Looks like a work in progress.....


----------



## Masskier (Jun 18, 2015)

In yesterday's Cal Record.  


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]6/17/2015 8:15:00 AM[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Burke: Mountain Property Values Skyrocket After Re-appraisal*[/FONT]
 

 


 [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]+ click to enlarge[/FONT]
 
 

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*By Brad UsatchStaff Writer*[/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]BURKE  -- Travel the five miles on Burke Hollow Rd. from West Burke to East  Burke and though you never cross a town line, in many ways you've  entered a different world.
[/FONT]


----------



## WWF-VT (Jun 18, 2015)

*Burke: Mountain Property Values Skyrocket After Re-appraisal 

*Can't read the article unless you are a subscriber


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2015)

Link? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jun 19, 2015)

The last appraisal was ten years ago.  I should hope that values went up in that period of time.  


.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jun 19, 2015)

Why


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2015)

In light of the condo valuation talk, I thought that I would take a look at the Vermont Realtors Association Report for May.  Year to date, only one condo has sold.  That compares to six for the same period last year.  Number of days on the market until sale has gone up by 87%.  Pending sales are down 85%.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> In light of the condo valuation talk, I thought that I would take a look at the Vermont Realtors Association Report for May.  Year to date, only one condo has sold.  That compares to six for the same period last year.  Number of days on the market until sale has gone up by 87%.  Pending sales are down 85%.



Poopycock!  Stop being so negative


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

So...assessments were raised. The part about 10 years between reevaluations is misleading. My assessment  has been raised every year since 1997 with the exception of 2009. As far as assessments being in line with fair market value...don't buy it. I have four properties and only one is at what I would call fair market.  IMHO.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2015)

ablb said:


> So...assessments were raised. The part about 10 years between reevaluations is misleading. My assessment  has been raised every year since 1997 with the exception of 2009. As far as assessments being in line with fair market value...don't buy it. I have four properties and only one is at what I would call fair market.  IMHO.



So would you say that they are over appraised?  Under appraised?


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So would you say that they are over appraised?  Under appraised?



Two are under, one is way over. One I think is pretty accurate.


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

ablb said:


> Two are under, one is way over. One I think is pretty accurate.



They all went up 25-40%


----------



## mbedle (Jun 24, 2015)

Assessment values may have nothing to do with real estate values. I think this was mentioned before. It really depends on how you local goverment or county does assessments. 

And Ablb, having an assessment done every year is amazing. Do they really come to your house every year and do an assessment, or just adjust the value of your house based on some percentage increase in value? If it's based on just a perceived percentage increase in value, I would guess you saw a good decrease after 2008. 

And VTKilamey, where did you find specifics on just the sales at the resort. I could only find specifics on county and certain towns. Based on my review, the results you stated are not unique to just this resort.


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Assessment values may have nothing to do with real estate values. I think this was mentioned before. It really depends on how you local goverment or county does assessments.
> 
> And Ablb, having an assessment done every year is amazing. Do they really come to your house every year and do an assessment, or just adjust the value of your house based on some percentage increase in value? If it's based on just a perceived percentage increase in value, I would guess you saw a good decrease after 2008.
> 
> And VTKilamey, where did you find specifics on just the sales at the resort. I could only find specifics on county and certain towns. Based on my review, the results you stated are not unique to just this resort.



In Vermont it is based on fair market value. So it should tie to comparables (recent sales). No, they only come out if you pulled a building permit. Visit or not, the assessment is raised. It has more to do with the town budget.


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

And there has never been a decrease, even the years the mountain went bankrupt.


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> In light of the condo valuation talk, I thought that I would take a look at the Vermont Realtors Association Report for May.  Year to date, only one condo has sold.  That compares to six for the same period last year.  Number of days on the market until sale has gone up by 87%.  Pending sales are down 85%.



That makes total sense. I bought two units in 2011 and some of the units on then (Powderhorn) are still on.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2015)

The only other condos I know of belong to a small place in St. Johnsbury, so the county data really is Burke data.  


.


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The only other condos I know of belong to a small place in St. Johnsbury, so the county data really is Burke data.
> 
> 
> .



I'm active in 3 condo associations. I believe the only sale was in Burkeside.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jun 24, 2015)

I am very familiar with property in Burke and I do not know of any  property that has had it value raised every year without some sort of  improvement or a rolling reappraisal. The State of Vermont does not  allow listers to do this. Tax rates have certainly changed in the 17+  years from 1997 to now but I cannot think of any property in Burke that  has had it's assessment raised every year except 2009 . The only  exception I can think of would be if a parcel is in current use. That  could change the taxable land value from year to year. Is your property  in current use?


----------



## ablb (Jun 24, 2015)

My property is a condo at Burke and I'd be happy to show you my tax bills.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jun 24, 2015)

I have no doubt that your taxes have changed from year to year but I don't think your assessment went up every year.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jun 24, 2015)

Burke does not re-assess property every year. The Tax Rate can certainly change from one year to the next ($1.98 per hundred one year and $2.05 per hundred another year) but the value of the property does not change every year. Burke had a Town Wide reapprisal in 2006 and another Town Wide Reappraisal this year. In other years there have been rolling reappraisals in certain areas which have resulted in assessment changes, some up and some down. Vermont State law does not allow a town to change property values simply to raise more money that is why tax rates change from year to year. Values stay the same for several years at a time (barring improvements ) but tax rates go up so the tax bill is greater.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2015)

An interesting tidbit from the latest VT Digger article.  The Q Burke hotel will be paid for with $120 million in EB-5 money.  Out of the 240 EB-5 investors (at $500,000 a piece), only 66 investors have subscribed. 

Where is the money coming from to build out the hotel if they are 174 EB-5 investors short?

And by the way, now that we know that only 66 investors have subscribed, my guess as to the number of investors made a couple of months back was almost spot on.  It turns out that my gut was absolutely correct.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> In light of the condo valuation talk, I thought that I would take a look at the Vermont Realtors Association Report for May.  Year to date, only one condo has sold.  That compares to six for the same period last year.  Number of days on the market until sale has gone up by 87%.  Pending sales are down 85%.



Some additional stats,

   There were 5 sales, not 1.  


  The mean price went from $250,583 to $478,200, a 92% increase and the median price went from $240,000 to $509,000 a 112% increase, during the same time period.    This is also the reason why assess values are going up.  Even though it was 10 years since the last town wide re-appraisal, it was the past 12-18 months that there was a “pop” in the values.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> An interesting tidbit from the latest VT Digger article.  The Q Burke hotel will be paid for with $120 million in EB-5 money.  Out of the 240 EB-5 investors (at $500,000 a piece), only 66 investors have subscribed.
> 
> Where is the money coming from to build out the hotel if they are 174 EB-5 investors short?
> 
> And by the way, now that we know that only 66 investors have subscribed, my guess as to the number of investors made a couple of months back was almost spot on.  It turns out that my gut was absolutely correct.



That's odd


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Some additional stats,
> 
> There were 5 sales, not 1.
> 
> ...



That's odd.  The realtors association says prices are lower.  Why are they missing data?


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> An interesting tidbit from the latest VT Digger article.  *The Q Burke hotel will be paid for with $120 million in EB-5 money.* *Out of the 240 EB-5 investors (at $500,000 a piece), only 66 investors have subscribed. *
> 
> *Where is the money coming from* *to build out the hotel if they are 174 EB-5 investors short?*



I wondered the same thing.  My eyes nearly popped out of my head when I read that!

They've only netted $33M of the $120M sum, which is a mere 28%! 

If this hotel complex is even REMOTELY close to completion, that either means that the $120M estimate is completely fictitious b******t, or the company is dipping into its' piggy-bank rather than using EB-5 money.


EDIT: The above would be a really good question for Vermont Digger to explore.  Wouldn't it be "interesting" if Jay Peak co's project estimates were often wildly overstated to the upside, while simultaneously fully EB-5 subscribed.   Gosh, that would really be something were that the case.  Of course, you'd need to be able to fully look into their financials to know whether that's the case or not.  Hmmm......


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2015)

It is important to remember that this EB-5 project includes more then just the hotel and conference center. According to the Resort's March 2014 Business Plan, the  total cost of the project is 104.7 million with only 98 million coming from EB-5 investors. The rest is coming from the resort owners. Not sure where the 120M number is coming from, there may be more updated docs on this project. 

In the business plan, the hotel and conference center buildout is estimated to cost $48,695,000 EB-5 money and $3,155,000 resort owner money. The Tennis facility, aquatic center and mountain bike park will cost an additional $26,950,000 EB-5 money and $775,000 resort owner money. The remainder of the money consists of utilities & common area infrastructure ($3.3 M EB-5 and 1.4 M resort owner), construction supervision (11.3 M EB-5), Contingencies (3.7 M EB-5), hotel architect & design fees (1.4 M EB-5) and Land (2.5 M EB-5 and 1.4 resort owner).


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Good point.  The contractor estimated the cost of the hotel to be $55 million.  So they are $22 million short if you don't include the 10% management fee.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2015)

Agreed, but I am not sure where Vtdigger is getting their numbers and how accurate they are. I have yet to find anywhere online that shows the actual number of committed investors. We also need to assume that the number changes from day to day.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

VTDigger gets their information from FOIA requests.

Any bets on the likelihood that the aquatic centers gets built? 

Any bets on the likelihood that the crater in Newport gets a building constructed on top of it?


----------



## River19 (Jun 25, 2015)

The fact that the Qs, Stenger and the 3rd guy are principals in "dozens of companies" combined with the nature of the Phase II complaints feels very ponzi-ish to me.  I hope I'm wrong.......

So let's say they come up short on funding for the Tennis. Swimming etc. build outs but cobble together funding to complete the hotel and snow making investments/build, I think the consensus would be that the mountain "resort" is in a better place than before right?

I'm trying to find the silver lining in the fact that this whole EB-5/Stenger/Q mess feels very shady.......I'm waiting for the announcement that Bernie Madoff has been hired on as a consultant to ANC/Q/Jay


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VTDigger gets their information from FOIA requests.
> 
> Any bets on the likelihood that the aquatic centers gets built?
> 
> Any bets on the likelihood that the crater in Newport gets a building constructed on top of it?



FOIA requests are only as good as the data they provide. I have no idea have fast the investor data is updated on the government level (I would think pretty slow). So if the resort is not updating the government with their current investor amounts on regular intervals, the FOIA request don't necessarily reflect the actual numbers. 

As far as the aquatic center and tennis facilities, I would guess they won't get built until they can prove the hotel is financially stable (although the three are tied together). Based on the report I read, the profitability of the hotel is projected to be significant because it will operate under no immediate debt. Another thing I noted in the report is mentioning of an indoor biking facility! Link to the report is below:

https://eb5projects.com/system/proj...original/Q_Burke_Business_Plan.pdf?1395475107


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

mbedle said:


> FOIA requests are only as good as the data they provide.


Oh, please.  As for the number of investors is concerned, a reasonable person would give weight to the FOIA documents.  I'm willing to listen if you have a better source of data, but so far I haven't seen it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

mbedle said:


> As far as the aquatic center and tennis facilities, I would guess they won't get built until they can prove the hotel is financially stable (although the three are tied together). Based on the report I read, the profitability of the hotel is projected to be significant because it will operate under no immediate debt.


You seriously believe that they will be able to get future EB-5 investors for these projects?  Even after all of this negative publicity?  There is a reason that there is no activity at the AnC Bio site even though there was a "groundbreaking" in May.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

I can't find the link to the Burke webcam on their new website.  Does it still exist?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

So what does it mean when they say that the Q Burke project is "still under state suspension"?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So what does it mean when they say that the Q Burke project is "still under state suspension"?



Probably they can't raise money/market.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## burski (Jun 25, 2015)

my prediction, the Q  burke hotel does not get fully completed by this group, hopefully they at least get thru the remainder of this year and get one side of the hotel open and the main common areas.  I would be amazed if any future projects happen at Burke by this group. This will be a long ugly battle, its almost certain there is illegal activity here, whether it will ever by proven and anyone will ever be proven guilty is another story.  Hopefully this group goes away, Burke has been made a bit better and someone else comes in to  finish/operate the hotel and resort.


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## River19 (Jun 25, 2015)

burski said:


> my prediction, the Q  burke hotel does not get fully completed by this group, hopefully they at least get thru the remainder of this year and get one side of the hotel open and the main common areas.  I would be amazed if any future projects happen at Burke by this group. This will be a long ugly battle, its almost certain there is illegal activity here, whether it will ever by proven and anyone will ever be proven guilty is another story.  Hopefully this group goes away, Burke has been made a bit better and someone else comes in to  finish/operate the hotel and resort.



Sadly this possibility is beginning to come into my consciousness as well......when you think about how Ponzi-type schemes typically fall apart and apply that lens to this whole saga....some pieces start to fit.

Inability to quickly produce financial documents which should be readily on hand (ie. they shouldn't have to create them)

Multiple complicated inter-related entities with the same small group of people involved with all of them

Previously supportive business partners distancing themselves from the group when some things start to get a little unclear...

Total inability to even come up with a plan to return investors money let alone being able to do it

Every regulatory body near these projects throwing out the caution flag and wanting to dig in but running into barriers to doing so

Maybe some of this explains while an obviously over matched Jr. was put in charge of things.......

And maybe the whole thing is a conspiracy theory and everything is on the up and up.....but usually where there is smoke, there is fire.

And there has been smoke for a while around this thing......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

So I just read that article.  Damn, not good at all.  I love how they downplay it as "a voluntary" investigation.  Doesn't sound too voluntary.  And I also love how the State now realizes that they could be in trouble too and are distancing themselves.  

I sincerely hope that there is nothing wrong here, but it is sad that the State wasn't properly overseeing things initially. It could have avoided a lot of trouble.  

This line is particularly disturbing for Burke fans:



> The Department of Financial Regulation has asked the developers to also hold money in escrow for Q Burke and suggested that the developers could get a bridge loan for the project. Stenger and Quiros have balked at the idea, insisting that it will “cripple” the project’s ability to continue construction.
> 
> “DFR has requested all projects use an escrow account but realizes that in the case of QBurke Resort Hotel the project is already underway and that escrowing funds would not work for an already under construction project,” Stenger said by email. “We are working with DFR right now cooperatively to assure the review is complete and construction funds are fully available to the project.”



It perhaps explains the slow progress.


----------



## burski (Jun 25, 2015)

Wow, not a good day for Burke news, just heard that long time BMA headmaster is leaving BMA after this winter to take over Vail's academy


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 25, 2015)




----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

I've been saying for months now that the only way out of this mess is to sell.


.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2015)

Hopefully Peaks buys it.  I'd love to have Burke and Jay on my season pass.  

A man can dream


----------



## River19 (Jun 25, 2015)

But condo values are up !!!!!!


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2015)

Sell what, a half finished hotel on a 20 year struggling ski resort? Plus the hotel is a separate entity from the ski area (albeit owned by the same people). It might end up like Bolton and have two different owners (the base is separate from the ski terrain). The worst possible thing they could do at this point is stop construction on the hotel. If I was a regular visitor to Burke or owned a home there, I would be praying right now that this doesn't fail.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Jun 25, 2015)

Who would buy it and inherit all these problems?  I think the problems have to get sorted out before somebody would buy it.  Unless they can sell some assets clean.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

You are assuming that a purchaser would pay the construction cost.  With my scenario they would pay pennies on the dollar.  It's better for an investor to get something than nothing.  Ask the folks at Jay how their exit plan is going.  


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

You have to wonder what will become of their multi year snowmaking plan.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

mbedle said:


> *Agreed, but I am not sure where Vtdigger is getting their numbers and how accurate they are.*



Lets hope they're not accurate for Burke's sake.  



thetrailboss said:


> So I just read that article.  Damn, not good at all. * I love how they downplay it as "a voluntary" investigation.  Doesn't sound too voluntary.*



It's not.  The SEC doesnt knock on your door and ask, "pretty-please?" - that's not how it works.



deadheadskier said:


> *Hopefully Peaks buys it.*  I'd love to have Burke and Jay on my season pass.
> 
> A man can dream



MTN could outbid SKIS if they both sought it.  Jay Peak on the cheap with all the capital improvements would be a boon, but I'm not really sure anyone would want Burke.  If it was forced in a package deal, they could try to sell-off Burke though.


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## fbrissette (Jun 25, 2015)

burski said:


> just heard that long time BMA headmaster is leaving BMA after this winter to take over Vail's academy



That must have been a difficult decision to make...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You have to wonder what will become of their multi year snowmaking plan.
> 
> 
> .



Unfortunately, like a lot of things at Burke, it is "multi-year" which does not mean guaranteed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not.  The SEC doesnt knock on your door and ask, "pretty-please?" - that's not how it works.



Exactly!  The $22k in "donations" to Mr. Shumlin stopped the state oversight; but the Feds are a different story.  Nothing lately from the "Washington" Delegation about how awesome Stenger et al are.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

A perhaps well-timed Email just came from Q proclaiming:



> Things have kicked into high gear and we now have anywhere from 300 construction workers (plus) onsite daily to keep our target opening date of December 11th.  Some highlights from our construction company, PeakCM include:
> * Framing for the South West balcony roof overhand is complete.
> * Boilers in the main mechanical room have been installed.
> * Sprinkler rough-in is complete in the west wing attic.
> * Fireplaces and heat pumps have been installed in the West residential floors.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> A perhaps well-timed Email just came from Q proclaiming:


I read that, likely in this thread, several days ago.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

It looks like the webcam is gone.


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## SIKSKIER (Jun 25, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I read that, likely in this thread, several days ago.


Ironic that its in a post TB quoted #4239.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Hotel rates have been posted on the new website.  The rates are for two adults, "ski and stay" in a studio room:

Early Season (December 11th through December 25th, 2015) starting from $173.00

Holiday (December 26th – December 31st, 2015 ) starting from $403.00

Regular Season (Jan 2nd through March 26th, 2016 | excluding Jan 15-17 and Feb 13-20) starting from $271.00

Peak (Jan 15-17) & Presidents Week (Feb 13-20) starting from $353.00

Late Season (March 27 through Apr 9) starting from $190.00


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It looks like the webcam is gone.



Lost it with the new website. This was the final screenshot I captured from it.







https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel


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## River19 (Jun 25, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Lost it with the new website. This was the final screenshot I captured from it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah yes the beautiful Burke skyline......


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

If the Great Leader says that everything is fine, everything is fine!


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Webcam is back up:


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

An interior shot:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

Wow.  That is verbatim what they said over a week ago.  Someone is asleep at the switch there.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

River19 said:


> Ah yes the beautiful Burke skyline......



Nah, that is not a giant Q.  So that is not it.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

To assure potential future investors that everything is fine, they have apparently opened phase 1 of the hotel ahead of schedule:


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## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

The aquatic center has been fast tracked:


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Hotel rates have been posted on the new website.  The rates are for two adults, "ski and stay" in a studio room:
> 
> Holiday (December 26th – December 31st, 2015 ) starting from $403.00
> 
> ...



Is it simply the fact that I am "God of SOTC", or do these prices seem kind-of high?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it simply the fact that I am "God of SOTC", or do these prices seem kind-of high?



I would not be surprised if there is some steep discounting once things get going.  If they have not improved their snowmaking capacity, then NOBODY will pay $403 per night for Burke.  Sorry it's the truth.  Their lack of capacity is a serious issue and their "work" this year will not fix that problem.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2015)

See, I don't view $400 for Christmas week for two people including skiing to be that outrageous for premium slope side lodging.   That works out to like $270 for the room and $130 for the lift tickets.   It's not cheap, but about what I'd expect for that week.   

Now, if it was $403 per person, that would be ridiculous for Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> See, I don't view $400 for Christmas week for two people including skiing to be that outrageous for premium slope side lodging.   That works out to like $270 for the room and $130 for the lift tickets.   It's not cheap, but about what I'd expect for that week.
> 
> Now, if it was $403 per person, that would be ridiculous for Burke.



But would you pay that for maybe half of the training slope (via the Poma), one route off the summit (Willoughby-Lower Bear Den-Lower Warrens) and maybe one route on the lower mountain?  Many would not.  That's worst case I know, but the last couple of seasons it has been pretty meager skiing up there in the early season/Christmas period.


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## River19 (Jun 26, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> But would you pay that for maybe half of the training slope (via the Poma), one route off the summit (Willoughby-Lower Bear Den-Lower Warrens) and maybe one route on the lower mountain?  Many would not.  That's worst case I know, but the last couple of seasons it has been pretty meager skiing up there in the early season/Christmas period.



This will obviously be the key, you can't charge a premium price for a sub-premium product.  So they need to make sure there are plenty of funds for finishing the hotel AND the snow making for the hotel pricing to remotely make sense.  But they know that too.


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## mbedle (Jun 26, 2015)

Has anyone seen any snow making upgrades taking place at the Burke. Is it possible to temporarily fix the snow making issues this season and complete the upgrades next season? I thought I read that the limiting factor was air and something about renting air compressors. 

As far as the room rates, that is a really good deal for a room with a small kitchen. I am surprised that they will not have any regular hotel room available by opening date.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 26, 2015)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were no regular hotel rooms.  They are suites, one bedroom, two bedroom, and three bedroom units.


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## River19 (Jun 26, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were no regular hotel rooms.  They are suites, one bedroom, two bedroom, and three bedroom units.



If so.......

If the hotel thing goes south they could easily convert those to condos........

Either way......the popcorn is popping and we'll all just sit back and see how things play out and hope that whatever the outcome it benefits Burke and the area.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2015)

River19 said:


> This will obviously be the key, you can't charge a premium price for a sub-premium product.  So they need to make sure there are plenty of funds for finishing the hotel AND the snow making for the hotel pricing to remotely make sense.  But they know that too.



You'd think that they know it, but they apparently don't.  Stenger no doubt knows, but the Q's don't get it.  The improvements this year are welcome, but from what I have seen they are not going to fix "the problem" unless you are a member of a certain ski racing program that will benefit from having some fan guns on the training hill.


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## oldtimer (Jun 26, 2015)

While I agree that the fan guns on the training hill will mostly benefit the BMA kids, the trickle down of less air required will be real.  I am also fairly certain that the fan guns will not be owned by Burke mtn, Qburke, or any Q relation.  If the past is any guide, these are likely owned by the academy.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> While I agree that the fan guns on the training hill will mostly benefit the BMA kids, the trickle down of less air required will be real.  I am also fairly certain that the fan guns will not be owned by Burke mtn, Qburke, or any Q relation.  If the past is any guide, these are likely owned by the academy.



Exactly regarding BMA owning these.  But I don't think that the "air" savings will be that great, but I could be wrong.  My understanding is the real problem is the cut back in air compressor capacity.  The obvious solution is to bring the compressors back.


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## yeggous (Jun 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully Peaks buys it.  I'd love to have Burke and Jay on my season pass.
> 
> A man can dream



Don't tease!


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Masskier (Jun 27, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly regarding BMA owning these.  But I don't think that the "air" savings will be that great, but I could be wrong.  My understanding is the real problem is the cut back in air compressor capacity.  The obvious solution is to bring the compressors back.



No,  The mountain is buying the 20 fan guns, not BMA.  Also keep in mind that they will relocate the 28 (HKDs?) that are on the training hill now to other parts of the mountain.  These guns are relatively new and are more efficient than the older ones.  They will also increase water capacity on the upper mountain this summer.
  One of their biggest obstacles has been their obligation to get the training hill open by their contractual deadline.  In the past this would eat up a lot of their  early season resources.  Because of the fan guns on the Training hill, they will be able to start much earlier on opening and expanding other terrain for the public.


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## River19 (Jun 29, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No,  The mountain is buying the 20 fan guns, not BMA.  Also keep in mind that they will relocate the 28 (HKDs?) that are on the training hill now to other parts of the mountain.  These guns are relatively new and are more efficient than the older ones.  They will also increase water capacity on the upper mountain this summer.
> One of their biggest obstacles has been their obligation to get the training hill open by their contractual deadline.  In the past this would eat up a lot of their  early season resources.  Because of the fan guns on the Training hill, they will be able to start much earlier on opening and expanding other terrain for the public.



Given the story that broke last week in the Digger and the recent conversation around it, what is your take on the financial predicament Q Burke is wrapped up in?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2015)

Masskier said:


> No,  The mountain is buying the 20 fan guns, not BMA.  Also keep in mind that they will relocate the 28 (HKDs?) that are on the training hill now to other parts of the mountain.  These guns are relatively new and are more efficient than the older ones.  They will also increase water capacity on the upper mountain this summer.
> One of their biggest obstacles has been their obligation to get the training hill open by their contractual deadline.  In the past this would eat up a lot of their  early season resources.  Because of the fan guns on the Training hill, they will be able to start much earlier on opening and expanding other terrain for the public.



That's great but I don't think it solves the problem. They should have learned that "efficiency" does not resolve their lack of compressed air. It would have been cheaper to just rent the compressors and do the some of the other fixes. Instead they're throwing money at the wrong issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jun 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Given the story that broke last week in the Digger and the recent conversation around it, what is your take on the financial predicament Q Burke is wrapped up in?



Massier won't answer.  He comes here to play a PR game, not to have an actual discussion.


.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Massier won't answer.  He comes here to play a PR game, not to have an actual discussion.
> 
> 
> .



Honestly I think any info is good info. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Jun 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Massier won't answer.  He comes here to play a PR game, not to have an actual discussion.
> 
> 
> .



Oh we know why he usually comes here, but I figured I would throw it out there as even the PR spin would be entertaining to hear.

I'm just sitting back waiting for things to develop/conclude and see how the dust settles on this whole deal......


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Given the story that broke last week in the Digger and the recent conversation around it, what is your take on the financial predicament Q Burke is wrapped up in?



There really isn't much new in the Digger article.  The SEC started 18 months ago, The article made it sound like it just happened.  I think most of us knew that many of the larger EB5 projects have been under scrutiny.  I think that the Cal Record had a better story on Friday.  IMO, the real story should be about the completion of $282,000,000 of development that created 6,290 jobs and gave 430 investors their permanent green cards and another 134 conditional green cards.  And currently there's $220 mil under development (Burke ad AncBio).  You know its interesting how the eb 5 developement spurs other development.  We are starting to see it on Burke.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That's great but I don't think it solves the problem. They should have learned that "efficiency" does not resolve their lack of compressed air. It would have been cheaper to just rent the compressors and do the some of the other fixes. Instead they're throwing money at the wrong issue.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Well,  I would think that depending on which direction they go, the next phase they will either buy a bunch of fan guns or new compressors.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Massier won't answer.  He comes here to play a PR game, not to have an actual discussion.
> 
> 
> .



No,  you just have to ask nicely.  What happen I notice the past few months your not as negative as you use to be?


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Oh we know why he usually comes here, but I figured I would throw it out there as even the PR spin would be entertaining to hear.
> 
> I'm just sitting back waiting for things to develop/conclude and see how the dust settles on this whole deal......



Well I hope you are entertained!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2015)

Masskier said:


> There really isn't much new in the Digger article.  The SEC started 18 months ago, The article made it sound like it just happened.  I think most of us knew that many of the larger EB5 projects have been under scrutiny.  I think that the Cal Record had a better story on Friday.  IMO, the real story should be about the completion of $282,000,000 of development that created 6,290 jobs and gave 430 investors their permanent green cards and another 134 conditional green cards.  And currently there's $220 mil under development (Burke ad AncBio).  You know its interesting how the eb 5 developement spurs other development.  We are starting to see it on Burke.



Well......I think there is a lot of skepticism over the numbers.  

First, Stenger's projects are not done.  In fact most are not even close to being done.  AncBio is in trouble for various reasons.  Sure, they're moving ahead, but success is not guaranteed.  And half of Newport is still a warzone.  

Second, the jobs numbers are making folks scratch their collective heads.  Right now a lot of (out of town) construction workers have (temporary) jobs.  There right now are not 6,000 "new" jobs.  

And third, what exactly are those "new" jobs going to be?  Mostly tourist industry jobs at minimum wage.  I'd argue that a big problem with Vermont over the last 15 years or so is that these low wage jobs are the only ones being created.  A lot of middle-income jobs disappeared, particularly in manufacturing.  So that is not a great thing.  

So I think we are still a ways from touting success.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 29, 2015)

As of now AnC Bio is not happening.  Ground was broken, but since the ceremony nothing has happened at the site - at least according to VTDigger.  

I have no clue where the $22 million shortfall for the Q Burke hotel is coming from, but at least it's still moving along.


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## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well......I think there is a lot of skepticism over the numbers.
> 
> First, Stenger's projects are not done.  In fact most are not even close to being done.  AncBio is in trouble for various reasons.  Sure, they're moving ahead, but success is not guaranteed.  And half of Newport is still a warzone.
> 
> ...



Agreed,

Those stats are from the Digger article and the job numbers did not include Burke or AnC Bio.  Out of the 8 projects that started, 5 are complete.

Most of the jobs are in the hospitality/ tourism.  AnC Bio would certainly create more skilled jobs.  Also, it's interesting how other development are being spurred.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> As of now AnC Bio is not happening.  Ground was broken, but since the ceremony nothing has happened at the site - at least according to VTDigger.
> 
> I have no clue where the $22 million shortfall for the Q Burke hotel is coming from, but at least it's still moving along.



I saw that too.  The Cal Record had a picture and reported that site work was being done.

I don't think there is a short fall for the Hotel.  They have 52+ investors waiting for their I 526 petitions to be approved.


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## River19 (Jun 30, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Agreed,
> 
> Those stats are from the Digger article and the job numbers did not include Burke or AnC Bio.  Out of the 8 projects that started, 5 are complete.
> 
> Most of the jobs are in the hospitality/ tourism.  AnC Bio would certainly create more skilled jobs.  Also, it's interesting how other development are being spurred.



OK I'll bite....fish on........what other development has been spurred by the development at Burke?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> OK I'll bite....fish on........what other development has been spurred by the development at Burke?



Arguably there have been a couple of restaurants and an inn that have opened recently.  It's a stretch, however, to say that these only came about because of a half built hotel.  I think Kingdom Trails may have had a little something to do with it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 30, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I saw that too.  The Cal Record had a picture and reported that site work was being done.
> 
> I don't think there is a short fall for the Hotel.  They have 52+ investors waiting for their I 526 petitions to be approved.


As much as I like the Caledonian Record, the VTDigger articles have proven to be much more reliable.  The Caledonian articles have generally been quotes from Stenger absent any independent investigation.  

But until someone actually looks at the site, who knows...


----------



## River19 (Jun 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Arguably there have been a couple of restaurants and an inn that have opened recently.  It's a stretch, however, to say that these only came about because of a half built hotel.  I think Kingdom Trails may have had a little something to do with it.




Um, yeah, if that is what he is referring to, then you would also have to go back and talk about the 2 restaurants that closed first ( Willy's and River Garden).  And who in their right mind opens an Inn BECAUSE a large hotel is being built.  The inn was opened due to KT traffic and wanting/needing another option other than camping.....not because of Q-Development.  

But until he clarifies what he is referring to then we won't know.  I believe he has mentioned another restaurant planning to open in town.....if so, great, more options.  The Publik House replaced a dead establishment (the Pube) so net net, it counts as one restaurant.

Mike's and the truck opened 100% for KT traffic.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2015)

I also saw in the Cal Rec a photo of site work beginning for AnCBio.  That said, there are a lot of big "?'s" about that project including, but not limited to, the fact that the main operation is defunct (or all but) and that part of the transaction in Newport involved a questionable land sale/self-dealing with Q Senior taking a huge profit.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 30, 2015)

It's possible that Stenger got a crew up there to move some dirt prior to the Caledonian Record article.  Who really knows.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> part of the transaction in Newport involved a questionable land sale/self-dealing with Q Senior taking a huge profit.


I recall reading that the state was requiring an independent appraisal for the lot that was sold from Quiros to the AnC Bio LLC.  There definitely seemed to be a miraculous upturn in the value of the land when it was sold to AnC.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I recall reading that the state was requiring an independent appraisal for the lot that was sold from Quiros to the AnC Bio LLC.  There definitely seemed to be a miraculous upturn in the value of the land when it was sold to AnC.



Yep.  Exactly.  Pretty disturbing to see that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Well......I think there is a lot of skepticism over the numbers.



That's because the jobs number is laughable BS, and the biotech project will never be completed.


----------



## River19 (Jul 6, 2015)

Just to follow up on the other new restaurant being built out in E. Burke......I believe they were targeting July 15th opening but based on the looks of the place....that would take a miracle.  I'm guessing that it will be done late summer.  Former Trout brewmaster I believe....and some kinda Italian bistro-ish flavor.

Publick House missed out on a ton of business this weekend.....I guess they are doing pretty well in order to stay closed on busy weekend.  Good for them observing the 4th, bad for them leaving so much cash on the table......but hey it is their choice 

So compared to a couple years ago E.Burke will be down 1 restaurant when the new Bistro thing opens if you count R's seasonal food truck.

Used to have The Pube, Willy's and River Garden.....now it will be the Publick House, Bistro thing, and the food truck......Bailey's swapped to the NEK store so net the same.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 6, 2015)

There is some scuttlebutt on their Facebook page about the fireworks.  I guess it rained and lots of people left.  Some wanted a refund or a rain date for the fireworks.  

I have to side with the mountain on this one.  It's up to the attendee to check the weather - especially if they didn't advertise a rain date.


----------



## River19 (Jul 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> There is some scuttlebutt on their Facebook page about the fireworks.  I guess it rained and lots of people left.  Some wanted a refund or a rain date for the fireworks.
> 
> I have to side with the mountain on this one.  It's up to the attendee to check the weather - especially if they didn't advertise a rain date.



In prior years I believe there was a rain date......but they had a band etc. and scheduled a money making event so I'm sure they didn't want to pull the plug on that.

Some friends went up and were soaked....."Text was....fireworks were good but got effing soaked which sucked".....it is what it is...

I drank better beer on my porch with friends and watched the rain......


----------



## Masskier (Jul 6, 2015)

River19 said:


> Just to follow up on the other new restaurant being built out in E. Burke......I believe they were targeting July 15th opening but based on the looks of the place....that would take a miracle.  I'm guessing that it will be done late summer.  Former Trout brewmaster I believe....and some kinda Italian bistro-ish flavor.
> 
> Publick House missed out on a ton of business this weekend.....I guess they are doing pretty well in order to stay closed on busy weekend.  Good for them observing the 4th, bad for them leaving so much cash on the table......but hey it is their choice
> 
> ...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 6, 2015)

River19 said:


> In prior years I believe there was a rain date......but they had a band etc. and scheduled a money making event so I'm sure they didn't want to pull the plug on that.
> 
> Some friends went up and were soaked....."Text was....fireworks were good but got effing soaked which sucked".....it is what it is...
> 
> I drank better beer on my porch with friends and watched the rain......



Burke made it pretty clear the fireworks were "rain or shine". Although if they would have delayed them 10 minutes, it would have been sprinkles rather than a downpour. I couldn't believe they set them off when they did. It wasn't even really dark yet and it was pouring. We ended up watching them from a friend's house in Kirby.



Masskier said:


> It's funny how even though the new owners change the name a few years ago, We still call it Bailey's.


IMHO, "The Northeast Kingdom Country Store" is too much of a mouthful. The new owners should have come up with something more original that could be shortened to one or two words when people talk about it in conversation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2015)

Re:  Fourth of July

Looked like a pretty small crowd at the mountain.  As to the rain, it is what it is.  They said rain or shine.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 6, 2015)

Mountain Bike season pass holders for in for free.  Why not ski season pass holders?


.


----------



## faQ (Jul 6, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Burke made it pretty clear the fireworks were "rain or shine". Although if they would have delayed them 10 minutes, it would have been sprinkles rather than a downpour. I couldn't believe they set them off when they did. It wasn't even really dark yet and it was pouring. We ended up watching them from a friend's house in Kirby.
> 
> 
> IMHO, "The Northeast Kingdom Country Store" is too much of a mouthful. The new owners should have come up with something more original that could be shortened to one or two words when people talk about it in conversation.



Funny thing was, FB page said they would go off around 9:30. Then they set them off in the rain at 9. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## River19 (Jul 6, 2015)

Masskier said:


> River19 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to follow up on the other new restaurant being built out in E. Burke......I believe they were targeting July 15th opening but based on the looks of the place....that would take a miracle.  I'm guessing that it will be done late summer.  Former Trout brewmaster I believe....and some kinda Italian bistro-ish flavor.
> ...


----------



## River19 (Jul 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Re:  Fourth of July
> 
> Looked like a pretty small crowd at the mountain.  As to the rain, it is what it is.  They said rain or shine.



And rain it was......it's New England, it rains.....shit happens......but it was a warm rain


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2015)

River19 said:


> Masskier said:
> 
> 
> > I will probably always call it "B&B" or "the old B&B"........when I clarify it is "the NEK Store"......lol
> ...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> River19 said:
> 
> 
> > The FB page had a "staff" photo on it recently and Jr. was not in it.
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > He took it
> ...


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 6, 2015)

If he took it there would have been a shaky video with techno music playing in the background.


.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 7, 2015)

Hotel Update,


----------



## River19 (Jul 7, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Hotel Update,



Facebook picture copy?

Lol


Would have been nice to see a green plate on the truck they captured in one of the pics in the gallery..... 

The building is coming along......


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> Facebook picture copy?
> 
> Lol
> 
> ...



Help me out here but what about a green plate on a truck they captured???


----------



## halfpintvt (Jul 8, 2015)

Green plate meaning Vermont registration as opposed to an out of state vehicle. It would be nice if the majority of the EB5 $$ and jobs would benefit local people as opposed to out of state workers who travel from site to site.


----------



## River19 (Jul 8, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Green plate meaning Vermont registration as opposed to an out of state vehicle. It would be nice if the majority of the EB5 $$ and jobs would benefit local people as opposed to out of state workers who travel from site to site.



I figured I would put it on a tee and let someone take a swing.....you my friend hit it out of the park.

These are the subtle details that get overlooked by Q but make a difference to the locals.

Chinese funded, out of state built, to be primarily enjoyed by out of staters but you locals, you can certainly work at the front desk for $12/hr or clean the pool.......

Sure there are some green plates working there but not enough for many people's liking.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> I figured I would put it on a tee and let someone take a swing.....you my friend hit it out of the park.
> 
> These are the subtle details that get overlooked by Q but make a difference to the locals.
> 
> ...



Bingo. And a cookie-cutter building.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## River19 (Jul 8, 2015)

Now I don't want to 100% piss on the parade of the building getting closer to completion as we have always stated, process be damned, funding source be damned if the hotel is built and opened on time and there is snow it will be good for the area in general.

That being said, there are plenty of "if"s involved with any commercial project, this one in particular.....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

Am I missing something here. The original comment was regarding a single truck that appeared to not be registered in the state of Vermont. We are now all of a sudden talking about the majority of the worker on the project are coming from out of state? Did somebody go to the parking lot and count the number of vehicles that had Vermont plates on them? Who gives a rat's ass if some of the construction and trade guys are driving over from NH to build this hotel. Hell, if they are coming from farther away, that means they are spending money locally, which is a good thing. To me it just sounds like we are grabbing onto anything to nit picking this hotel, resort and the owners, until either it finally gets done or the place closes for good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 8, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> *Green plate meaning Vermont registration as opposed to an out of state vehicle. It would be nice if the majority of the EB5 $$ and jobs would benefit local people as opposed to out of state workers*



Not to mention, those are already existing "jobs", which I guarantee you will be counted in the "jobs created" fraud metric.



mbedle said:


> *if they are coming from farther away, that  means they are spending money locally, which is a good thing. *



I see.

So 5 years from now, in 2020, those out of state workers are still going to travel on a daily basis to the northeast kingdom to fill up their gas tanks, buy lunches, and shop at all the local stores, right?


----------



## River19 (Jul 8, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Am I missing something here. The original comment was regarding a single truck that appeared to not be registered in the state of Vermont. We are now all of a sudden talking about the majority of the worker on the project are coming from out of state? Did somebody go to the parking lot and count the number of vehicles that had Vermont plates on them? Who gives a rat's ass if some of the construction and trade guys are driving over from NH to build this hotel. Hell, if they are coming from farther away, that means they are spending money locally, which is a good thing. To me it just sounds like we are grabbing onto anything to nit picking this hotel, resort and the owners, until either it finally gets done or the place closes for good.



Um, actually they aren't doing shit for the local economy after speaking with several local store and restaurant owners.  No lunch business etc.  Maybe they are buying gas.....so they are making the $0.02/gallon margin from them....awesome.

Local businesses have seen more traffic from the bridge work crews which are a fraction the size of the hotel crews.

but yes, we are nitpicking a bit here.....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not to mention, those are already existing "jobs", which I guarantee you will be counted in the "jobs created" fraud metric.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that the construction workers are not counted towards the 10 permanent full-time jobs needed to obtain the EB5 visas. And as far as the 5-years from now, would local workers (with no job after the hotel it built) still be buying local goods? Hopefully, at that point, additional tourisms with fill that void.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> Um, actually they aren't doing shit for the local economy after speaking with several local store and restaurant owners.  No lunch business etc.  Maybe they are buying gas.....so they are making the $0.02/gallon margin from them....awesome.
> 
> Local businesses have seen more traffic from the bridge work crews which are a fraction the size of the hotel crews.
> 
> but yes, we are nitpicking a bit here.....




Thanks for agreeing with the nitpicking thing. Bottom line is the goal of the EB-5 program is not to help depressed areas during the initial construction phases, but provide longterm economic growth to the area. Yes, most of the jobs will be hourly low wages, but what would you expect with this type of business. It's not like they are building an investment firm on the resort property.


----------



## River19 (Jul 8, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Thanks for agreeing with the nitpicking thing. Bottom line is the goal of the EB-5 program is not to help depressed areas during the initial construction phases, but provide longterm economic growth to the area. Yes, most of the jobs will be hourly low wages, but what would you expect with this type of business. It's not like they are building an investment firm on the resort property.



I had to agree with the nitpicking, I'm a lot of things but dishonest is not one of them,.......lol


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> I had to agree with the nitpicking, I'm a lot of things but dishonest is not one of them,.......lol



LOL - its all good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 8, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Thanks for agreeing with the nitpicking thing. *Bottom line is the goal of the EB-5 program is not to help depressed areas during the initial construction phases, but provide longterm economic growth to the area. Yes, most of the jobs will be hourly low wages, but what would you expect with this type of business. It's not like they are building an investment firm on the resort property.*



Step 1: Think about what you just said in the above paragraph.

Step 2: Think about how much money Jay Peak & co has received via EB-5.

Step 3: Do the math regarding how many "jobs" the money in Step 2 requires.

Step 4: Collect underpants


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Step 1: Think about what you just said in the above paragraph.
> 
> Step 2: Think about how much money Jay Peak & co has received via EB-5.
> 
> ...



LOL, great video - still not sure what you mean. Is it that they haven't generated or preserved any jobs since Jay Peak starting using EB-5 money to expand their operations? I don't know the answer to that. I would guess that is available in the I-829 forms submitted for conditional removal on the temp visas.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I'm pretty sure that the construction workers are not counted towards the 10 permanent full-time jobs needed to obtain the EB5 visas. And as far as the 5-years from now, would local workers (with no job after the hotel it built) still be buying local goods? Hopefully, at that point, additional tourisms with fill that void.



Oh I'd be willing to bet that Jay is certainly counting those construction jobs.  They say as much in their press conferences.

And Vermont is (hopefully) learning that having a tourism-based economy has its issues, not the least of which being very low paying jobs.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh I'd be willing to bet that Jay is certainly counting those construction jobs.  They say as much in their press conferences.
> 
> And Vermont is (hopefully) learning that having a tourism-based economy has its issues, not the least of which being very low paying jobs.



Just not sure how they can since they are not full-time jobs and they have to be around for 2 years and that has to occur 2 years after the condition visa is issues (which none have for the burke hotel investors). Again, I don't think most of these trade workers are on the hotel project for a full 2 years, and certainly not after the hotel is completed in December or the conditional visa are issued.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 9, 2015)

I took these earlier today.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2015)

Nice pics, but two out of three are upside down if you can fix them.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 9, 2015)

I tried,  any suggestions??


----------



## River19 (Jul 9, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I tried,  any suggestions??



Suggestions?  Stop standing on your head when you take pics......lol 

No doubt it is a nice building........


----------



## Masskier (Jul 9, 2015)

river19 said:


> suggestions?  Stop standing on your head when you take pics......lol
> 
> no doubt it is a nice building........



lol...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2015)

Just got this in the mail....

Pretty cool.  




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## halfpintvt (Jul 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I tried,  any suggestions??


I turned them around for you


----------



## Masskier (Jul 10, 2015)

Thank you,  much appreciated


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

The Stowe Mountain Club building being built makes that look like a warming hut and it's private. Took some pics of it this week. If I figure out how to get them off my wife's phone & onto the computer I'll post.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> The Stowe Mountain Club building being built makes that look like a warming hut and it's private. Took some pics of it this week. If I figure out how to get them off my wife's phone & onto the computer I'll post.



who cares?

Totally different market.  That's like arguing a BMW 7 Series is a nicer car than a Toyota Camry.  Everybody knows it.

More importantly, you don't ski Burke.  

So, why bother posting in this thread other than to be a troll?  Literally ever single post you've made in this thread has been a trolling post.  Cut the crap.  You're amusing no one.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 11, 2015)

Q will buy killington I predict


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> who cares?


Obviously you.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Q will buy killington I predict


Couldn't be any worse than the first several seasons under POWDR ownership.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Obviously you.



No, I really don't care that Stowe has nicer real estate, nor does any Burke skier.

And if you want to crap on the lodge they're building at Burke saying the Stowe Club makes it look like a warming hut; then Burke's lodge makes the slopeside hotel at Killington look like an outhouse.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

Hot headed Irishmen are so easy.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Hot headed Irishmen are so easy.



Hater Italians, even easier


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hater Italians, even easier


Calling me a hater is OK in your book but me saying something as simple as the Stowe Lodge is really nice isn't. Some moderation around this joint. You call me not only a hater but an Italian hater, even better. Nice try but I'm not Italian.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Calling me a hater is OK in your book but me saying something as simple as the Stowe Lodge is really nice isn't. Some moderation around this joint. You call me not only a hater but an Italian hater, even better. Nice try but I'm not Italian.



Gosh, I didn't realize "hater Italian" was so much worse than "hot headed Irishman".


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Gosh, I didn't realize "hater Italian" was so much worse than "hot headed Irishman".


If the shoe fits.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2015)

Back to Burke....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## witch hobble (Jul 11, 2015)

Time to lock down the thread.  Before the Polaks and québécois are dragged into this.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

witch hobble said:


> Time to lock down the thread.  Before the Polaks and québécois are dragged into this.


Met the organist for the Montreal Canadians this week in VT. Really nice lady. Visited Poland a few years ago.You think Germans drink beer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2015)

Any pics from the snowmaking work?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Back to Burke....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


You mean back to Burke bashing. Seems to be OK for some but not for others.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> You mean back to Burke bashing. Seems to be OK for some but not for others.



It's a discussion about Burke...the good, the bad, and the ugly.,


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## marcski (Jul 12, 2015)

You seem to always find drama....whereever you go.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Any pics from the snowmaking work?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not sure what these are, but I thought they may have something to do with the fan guns


----------



## vermonter44 (Jul 12, 2015)

Those are vaults, or pre-made concrete footing for the tower mounted guns


----------



## Masskier (Jul 12, 2015)

vermonter44 said:


> Those are vaults, or pre-made concrete footing for the tower mounted guns



Thanks


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Burke's lodge makes the slopeside hotel at Killington look like an outhouse.


Now that there is pretty funny.....:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 13, 2015)

I've stayed in the Killington Grand on multiple occasions.  It is bigger, but not nicer, than Jay Peak's Tram Haus Lodge - where I have also stayed.  Since Burke's hotel is modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge, I wouldn't go bragging about how much better the Killington Grand is.  The only thing the Grand has going for it over the Tram Haus Lodge (and presumably the Burke hotel) is the year round outdoor pool.


----------



## River19 (Jul 13, 2015)

While I can't compare any of the ski hotels as I don't stay in them, what I can say is that any quality lodging slope side and good snow at Burke would be a great thing.  If Burke can get a well managed lodge with good snow up and running and keep the Jr's of the world away from damn near anything that touches a customer, I think all Burke supporters would take their chances with that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2015)

I've stayed at the Killington "Grand" myself. It really was nothing special even when it opened; just like all of Otten's hotels.  A Burke skier isn't going to care about the Killington hotels, just like they're not going to care about Stowe's hotel.  That was my point with Steamboat and I contend that his only reason for making that post was the same as basically every other post he's made in the thread; to troll.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2015)

I've only been in the K Grand a few times to eat dinner in Ovations restaurant. I agree it's nothing special & the food in the restaurant only average. The only reason I ate there was to use up ASC dollars I got through the ASC credit card back in the day. Dinners were free because of the reward dollars I received.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 13, 2015)

I think Burke has one of the best hotel sites in the state, as far as view goes.  looking directly at Willoughby Gap.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2015)

River19 said:


> While I can't compare any of the ski hotels as I don't stay in them, what I can say is that any quality lodging slope side and good snow at Burke would be a great thing.  If Burke can get a well managed lodge with good snow up and running and keep the Jr's of the world away from damn near anything that touches a customer, I think all Burke supporters would take their chances with that.



Agreed


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 13, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I think Burke has one of the best hotel sites in the state, as far as view goes.  looking directly at Willoughby Gap.



I'm blessed in that I dont have to stay at hotels in Vermont (unless I want to), but that does look like a pretty view.


----------



## River19 (Jul 13, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm blessed in that I dont have to stay at hotels in Vermont (unless I want to), but that does look like a pretty view.



I'm in the same situation, and yes it is a fantastic view, it used to be better, but there is a hotel in the way now......lol

And yes I completely understand having your cake and eating it too.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 13, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm blessed in that I dont have to stay at hotels in Vermont (unless I want to), but that does look like a pretty view.


I don't have to stay in any hotels either, but for some reason I still seem to stay in one every now and then.  For Killington it's been because of conferences.  For Jay Peak it was purely by choice.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2015)

It is a beautiful view for sure.  Just hope that the management this year is at least half as good as that view.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've stayed in the Killington Grand on multiple occasions.  It is bigger, but not nicer, than Jay Peak's Tram Haus Lodge - where I have also stayed.  Since Burke's hotel is modeled after the Tram Haus Lodge, I wouldn't go bragging about how much better the Killington Grand is.  The only thing the Grand has going for it over the Tram Haus Lodge (and presumably the Burke hotel) is the year round outdoor pool.



The Burke Hotel has a year round outdoor pool.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 13, 2015)

Burke is now accepting reservations in the new Hotel for December 11th and beyond.

http://skiburke.com/visit-burke/stay/hotel-rooms/


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 13, 2015)

Masskier said:


> The Burke Hotel has a year round outdoor pool.



I didn't know that!  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2015)

Masskier said:


> The Burke Hotel has a year round outdoor pool.



I did see that and, to be honest, that is a major plus because there is no other property on the mountain with that kind of facility.  Hell, you have to drive to St. Jay to get an indoor pool at a hotel.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jul 16, 2015)

An article in today's Burlington Free Press says that Bill Stenger has been approved to raise additional EB5 $$ for the Q Burke Resort Hotel. I pasted the article below:

Bill Stenger, CEO of Jay Peak Resort, said Thursday the Department of  Financial Regulation has approved a revised private placement  memorandum for the Q Burke Resort Hotel and Conference Center, and that  he is leaving Saturday for Vietnam to begin again raising money for the  project.

“We’ll be there for a week,” Stenger said of the upcoming trip. “We have appointments with over 120 investors.”
A private placement memorandum includes the documents potential investors receive to decide whether to put money into a project.
The  Burke project is one part of a massive redevelopment program in the  Northeast Kingdom being spearheaded by Stenger and his partner Ariel  Quiros using the federal EB-5 immigrant investor program. The program  offers the possibility of citizenship to foreign nationals who invest $1  million in a project in the United States that creates 10 jobs.
The  threshold is lowered to $500,000 for projects in a “targeted employment  area.” A TEA, as they are known, is an area where the unemployment rate  is 150 percent of the national average. The lesser investment also is  allowed in rural areas where the population is under 20,000 people. The  Northeast Kingdom qualifies on both counts.
The Department of Financial Regulation could not be reached for comment late Thursday.
The  department required Stenger to revise the private placement memorandum  for Q Burke in light of the controversy that has been swirling around  Stenger’s EB-5 projects over the past year.
The trouble began in  May 2014 when Burlington real estate magnate Tony Pomerleau pulled out  of a deal he and Stenger had struck for lakefront property Pomerleau  owns in Newport. Another of Stenger’s EB-5 projects, a $100 million  Newport Marina Hotel and Conference Center, was slated for that  property, now a shopping center.
Over the next year, reports in  the media revealed Stenger and Quiros had lost the trust of some of the  35 immigrant investors in the first EB-5 project at Jay Peak, the Tram  Haus lodge, and that the Securities and Exchange Commission was  investigating Stenger and Quiros.
State regulators describe the  SEC action as a “review,” not an investigation, as does Stenger. The SEC  never confirms investigations.
In February, the Agency of  Commerce and Economic Development, which is responsible for EB-5  projects in Vermont, inked an “oversight partnership” with the  Department of Financial Regulation, ratcheting up the scrutiny of the  projects.
Stenger said Thursday he is looking to raise an  additional $30 million for the Q Burke resort, which will include 120  suites, a conference center, restaurant and other amenities. Stenger  called the site one of the most “breathtaking” in New England.
“There’s  no other hotel of any substance in the entire region of East Burke,”  Stenger said. “It’s a beautiful property. It’s going to make such a  positive impact to the ski area and community in terms of job creation.”
The  approval of the Q Burke private placement memorandum ends an anxious  period for Stenger during which construction on the project, by Peak CM  of Winooski, continued while he was unsure he would be able to continue  to raise money to complete the hotel. Stenger said he has already raised  about $70 million for the project.
This  story was first published on July 16, 2015. Contact Dan D’Ambrosio at  660-1841 or ddambrosio@freepressmedia.com. Follow him on Twitter at  www.twitter.com/DanDambrosioVT.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 16, 2015)

Well, that confirms that they were worried about not having enough to finish it and that they have raised $70 million for the project.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 16, 2015)

If he raised $70 million why would he be worried about finishing a $55 million hotel?


.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If he raised $70 million why would he be worried about finishing a $55 million hotel?
> 
> 
> .



I'm confused. It says he's raised $70 mill but wants $30 mill more.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jul 17, 2015)

The article doesn't make sense.  According to VTDigger he hasn't raised anywhere near $70 million.  Perhaps these are people who were waiting for the all clear.  


.


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## dlague (Jul 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm confused. It says he's raised $70 mill but wants $30 mill more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Aquatic/tennis center?


----------



## halfpintvt (Jul 17, 2015)

Investor information from Q BUrke Mountain EB5 packet. They intend to raise $98,000,000.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2015)

OK.  $98 mill for ALL of the work at Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 18, 2015)

Remember how short lived this ad campaign was?  I wonder where the cease and desist letter is now?






.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Remember how short lived this ad campaign was?  I wonder where the cease and desist letter is now?
> 
> View attachment 17203
> 
> ...



It was just unoriginal and plain dumb.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jul 20, 2015)

The Caledonian Record confirmed that the pool will be open during summer months only.  


.


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## the original trailboss (Jul 20, 2015)

And a freestanding third wing where mid-Burke is now ??!?


----------



## Masskier (Jul 20, 2015)

Informative article in today's Cal Record

"Now Accepting Reservations: Q Burke Hotel On Track For December Opening" 

Confirms that the hotel is on Schedule for its December 11th opening and that reservations are already being accepted. Also that it is fully funded.


----------



## Masskier (Jul 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian Record confirmed that the pool will be open during summer months only.
> 
> 
> .



And also in the Fall, Winter and Spring.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

Masskier said:


> And also in the Fall, Winter and Spring.



That's not what the manager said.  The manager is a long time buddy of Quiros.  I'm sure he was the most qualified candidate.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

New information from VTDigger:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/07/21/stat...pproval-to-solicit-new-investors-for-q-burke/


----------



## dlague (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> New information from VTDigger:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/07/21/stat...pproval-to-solicit-new-investors-for-q-burke/



Interesting!

The developers will not have control of the distribution of funds; instead, the money will be released by a third party construction project consultant that has been hired by the Department of Financial Regulation.


----------



## River19 (Jul 21, 2015)

dlague said:


> Interesting!
> 
> The developers will not have control of the distribution of funds; instead, the money will be released by a third party construction project consultant that has been hired by the Department of Financial Regulation.



Feels like a normal construction loan arrangement on a residential project.....Contractor sends invoice to bank, bank approves the release of funds and people get paid.

I wonder if there is some validation step....


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## dlague (Jul 21, 2015)

River19 said:


> Feels like a normal construction loan arrangement on a residential project.....Contractor sends invoice to bank, bank approves the release of funds and people get paid.
> 
> I wonder if there is some validation step....



Next paragraphs are equally as interesting

The developers will not have control of the distribution of funds; instead, the money will be released by a third party construction project consultant that has been hired by the Department of Financial Regulation.

“I believe DFR has created a workable solution that would provide investor protection while allowing the project to continue,” Donegan wrote in a memo to the developers.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

One has to wonder if anything has happened in the past that has prompted the state implement these safeguards.


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## Masskier (Jul 21, 2015)

You would of thought that these safe guards would have been in place since the beginning of the EB 5 program.   As River said above this is very common in residential and (also commercial) development.  Whether you are using the Bank's money or private investors, this inures that the funds are being spent on the actual construction and related expenses.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

Masskier said:


> You would of thought that these safe guards would have been in place since the beginning of the EB 5 program.   As River said above this is very common in residential and (also commercial) development.  Whether you are using the Bank's money or private investors, this inures that the funds are being spent on the actual construction and related expenses.



You would have thought that, but we've had amateur hour from the State for the first few years.  Pretty sad.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> One has to wonder if has happened in the past that has prompted the state implement these safeguards.



I don't think one has to wonder.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

The good news is that despite the sideshow things are progressing...for the hotel at least.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The good news is that despite the sideshow things are progressing...for the hotel at least.


Agreed.  Given the challenges involved (SEC investigation, fundraising hold, etc.), it's pretty impressive that there is an opening date scheduled for December 11th.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

Apparently the new manager has not received all of the EB-5 talking points.  He told the Caledonian Record that there are only 131 workers on site.  Things are in full swing right now and I recall that we were promised many more workers.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Apparently* the new manager has not received all of the EB-5 talking points.  He told the Caledonian Record that there are only 131 workers on site.*



Doesn't matter so long as the paperwork turned in to the government say eleventy-billion workers.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Apparently the new manager has not received all of the EB-5 talking points.  He told the Caledonian Record that there are only *131,000* workers on site.  Things are in full swing right now and I recall that we were promised many more workers.



Must have been a typo...

:lol:


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## River19 (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Apparently the new manager has not received all of the EB-5 talking points.  He told the Caledonian Record that there are only 131 workers on site.  Things are in full swing right now and I recall that we were promised many more workers.



Hundreds they said........hundred + s = multiple hundred workers......not 131, but whatever....the friggin' thing seems to be getting built....which is good......

Honestly it seems like the long and short of it is, at the very least we can say Bill and Q kept shitty records of what they did with the money....evidenced by installing a proper process to manage the funds........provide invoice and proof of work completion and people will get paid.

Of course I still think their operation stinks to high heaven of Pozi scheme type management of funds and corporate structures etc.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

IMHO, the "business" of EB-5 is not creating business.  It is getting a cut of the initial investment.  

I recall reading that Stenger and Quiros get a 10% management fee of all of the EB-5 funds that they bring in.  About $280 million has been raised for projects at Jay Peak.  That's a management fee of $28 million.  The incentive is to get investment money and rake in the management fee - whether or not the business being built with the money is viable.

Can Burke sustain a profitable hotel and aquatic center?  I don't think that I would care if I got $10 million in management fees to find out if other people's money was wisely spent.


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## the original trailboss (Jul 27, 2015)

In the Saturday edition of the Caledonian Record: "With many longtime employees now gone, marketing manager Jessica Sechler says the ski area won't lose its hometown appeal as expansion brings more out-of-state vacationers."  You just can't make this stuff up !


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## mbedle (Jul 27, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> IMHO, the "business" of EB-5 is not creating business.  It is getting a cut of the initial investment.
> 
> I recall reading that Stenger and Quiros get a 10% management fee of all of the EB-5 funds that they bring in.  About $280 million has been raised for projects at Jay Peak.  That's a management fee of $28 million.  The incentive is to get investment money and rake in the management fee - whether or not the business being built with the money is viable.
> 
> Can Burke sustain a profitable hotel and aquatic center?  I don't think that I would care if I got $10 million in management fees to find out if other people's money was wisely spent.



Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure that the only management fee associated with EB-5 is collected by the regional center and not the company owners.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jul 27, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure that the only management fee associated with EB-5 is collected by the regional center and not the company owners.



I believe the topic in question refers to a 10K document fee.  
So during the process, if the prospective investor pulls out during the review period, the do not get the 10K back.
That was the way it was explained to me.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 27, 2015)

Here is what I was referring to:
http://www.shenlaw.net/cn/eb5_info14.pdf

In particular, this statement:
_The required minimum amount of investment funds to the Project per Investor is
US$500,000 (the “Investment”), plus an additional US$50,000 in administrative fees (the
“Administrative Fees”) payable to Jay Peak, Inc. (the “Company”)._

It looks like some of this fee may go to the people who bring investors in.  

But all of this is just speculation on my part.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jul 27, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is what I was referring to:
> http://www.shenlaw.net/cn/eb5_info14.pdf
> 
> In particular, this statement:
> ...



Yes, I believe that is yet another fee which is like a referral or finders fee.
Not bad eh?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> In the Saturday edition of the Caledonian Record: "With many longtime employees now gone, marketing manager Jessica Sechler says the ski area won't lose its hometown appeal as expansion brings more out-of-state vacationers."  You just can't make this stuff up !



Huh?!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2015)

VPR story:  http://digital.vpr.net/post/help-wanted-burke-expands-ski-resort-northeast-kingdom


.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VPR story:  http://digital.vpr.net/post/help-wanted-burke-expands-ski-resort-northeast-kingdom
> 
> 
> .



A Heineken at the Bear Den says that they cannot find enough locals willing to work for them and have to resort (once again) to foreign help.  Sad, but probably true.  

the_original_trailboss can contact me to claim his beer(s).


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2015)

It seems as if the majority of construction jobs have gone to non-locals.  It also seems as if the management jobs will go to non-locals.

So the job creation for the locals is pretty much limited to chamber maids and the like.


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## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It seems as if the majority of construction jobs have gone to non-locals.  It also seems as if the management jobs will go to non-locals.
> 
> So the job creation for the locals is pretty much limited to chamber maids and the like.



Did you expect it to be otherwise ?    Management requires prior experience which is hard to find in remote areas.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Did you expect it to be otherwise ?    Management requires prior experience which is hard to find in remote areas.



Not necessarily.  Vermont, being a "tourist state", surely has qualified management locally that could have been tapped.  

Remember that a big part of Stenger's deal is that it would create jobs for the locals.


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## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Not necessarily.  Vermont, being a "tourist state", surely has qualified management locally that could have been tapped.
> 
> Remember that a big part of Stenger's deal is that it would create jobs for the locals.



Not saying it is impossible, but certainly a challenge.  There are undoubtedly many qualified Vermonters (including some local), but then you have to compete with other potential employers in the Burlington/Stowe area (for example) which are truly 4-season destinations.     One of the challenge of all 'remote' areas is losing their qualified personal to 'urban' areas where the best jobs usually are.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Not saying it is impossible, but certainly a challenge.  There are undoubtedly many qualified Vermonters (including some local), but then you have to compete with other potential employers in the Burlington/Stowe area (for example) which are truly 4-season destinations.     One of the challenge of all 'remote' areas is losing their qualified personal to 'urban' areas where the best jobs usually are.



Very true.


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## River19 (Jul 28, 2015)

I did see that is an opening at the Hotel for a new super hero........."Captain Banquet"............able to leap buffet tables in a single bound?  

Anyone? 

Anyone?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2015)

River19 said:


> I did see that is an opening at the Hotel for a new super hero........."Captain Banquet"............able to leap buffet tables in a single bound?
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> Anyone?



"Thank you.  I will be here at Burke all season!"  :lol:


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## AdironRider (Jul 28, 2015)

Banquet Captain is actually a pretty cherry gig. One of the better F&B positions out there. Non-management so you still get tipped fat, but none of that 2 something an hour minimum wage servers deal with. (I did it for a summer and was getting paid 15 an hour plus tips, which usually worked out to 15, plus overtime on top of all that) Usually plenty of time to ski in the winter, but gangbusters in summer. 

I wouldn't want to do it if I had kids, but that applies to pretty much every F&B position.


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## River19 (Jul 28, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Banquet Captain is actually a pretty cherry gig. One of the better F&B positions out there. Non-management so you still get tipped fat, but none of that 2 something an hour minimum wage servers deal with. (I did it for a summer and was getting paid 15 an hour plus tips, which usually worked out to 15, plus overtime on top of all that) Usually plenty of time to ski in the winter, but gangbusters in summer.
> 
> I wouldn't want to do it if I had kids, but that applies to pretty much every F&B position.



Perhaps they should change the name on the site then to Banquet Captain vs. Captain Banquet.......I'm working on the super hero uniform as we speak......


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It seems as if the majority of construction jobs have gone to non-locals.  It also seems as if the management jobs will go to non-locals.
> 
> So the job creation for the locals is pretty much limited to chamber maids and the like.



As expected.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2015)

River19 said:


> Perhaps they should change the name on the site then to Banquet Captain vs. Captain Banquet.......I'm working on the super hero uniform as we speak......



It probably should be Banquet Captain but they misnamed it.  Just shows that despite what they say about being sophisticated and all it is still amateur hour.  Especially if us armchair resort operators can see that error.  Although their marketing gal is pretty cute.


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## AdironRider (Jul 28, 2015)

Oh no doubt, I actually forgot the entire premise of this thread for a minute there, being the complete ineptitude of Burke's management. 

Still a sweet gig for a young 20's guy or gal with great ski time.


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## crank (Jul 28, 2015)

I thought the premise of this thread was just to keep this thread going.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2015)

crank said:


> I thought the premise of this thread was just to keep this thread going.



It is!


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## Masskier (Jul 29, 2015)

Another VPR story,

http://digital.vpr.net/post/northea...-conditional-approval-pitch-foreign-investors

"Stenger has said those safeguards make it easier, not harder, to attract investment"


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Another VPR story,
> 
> http://digital.vpr.net/post/northea...-conditional-approval-pitch-foreign-investors
> 
> "Stenger has said those safeguards make it easier, not harder, to attract investment"



Last week's news. And his spin on it.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2015)

Masskier said:


> *
> "Stenger has said those safeguards make it easier, not harder, to attract investment"*



That's hysterical!

_"We screwed up so bad that increased government involvement makes it easier to get cash"

_This Stenger character has gone full-blown huckster.

EDIT:

And this bit is not good.  By not answering, we know the answer.



> Donegan says any new investments in Q Burke will stay in escrow until a  full financial review is complete. *She will not comment specifically on  whether Stenger has submitted documentation in a timely way.* But she  does say that EB-5 review is highly detailed and time-consuming for both  the state and the project developers.



<------  Still awaiting full Federal investigation.


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## Masskier (Jul 31, 2015)

In Today's Cal Record


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*EB-5 Projects Stenger: Construction Continues At Jay Peak, Q Burke, AnC Bio VT*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]_Mid-summer Hiatus At Jay Peak Townhouses Construction Now Back On Schedule_[/FONT]
 

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*By Robin Smith Staff Writer*[/FONT]


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some interesting quotes:



> But Stenger and Quiros had already raised tens of millions of dollars for AnC Bio and Q Burke — and they had already begun construction on the latter. The fundraising suspensions threatened to hold up further work, leaving earlier investors in immigration limbo and imperiling hundreds of construction jobs.





> Burke Mountain has been in business for 60 years, Stenger noted, as he drove through Lyndonville toward the ski resort he and Quiros bought in 2012. But, he argued, it has never capitalized on the ready supply of skiers from Boston, just three hours away.
> "There's not one hotel in the community!" he exclaimed incredulously.
> It was a bit of an exaggeration. A moment later, he passed the Lynburke Motel, a dreary brown building with a faded red sign advertising free Wi-Fi.
> "Every weekend, that's full of skiers," he remarked with a touch of disdain.
> ...


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 6, 2015)

I found this quote to be very interesting:

_Stenger says he spent a day in May 2014 at the SEC's Miami field office, discussing the development with federal officials._

Makes you wonder if the primary interest is with Mr. Quiros.


----------



## River19 (Aug 6, 2015)

So Stenger wants to turn the Darling Mansion into a "retreat or Think tank"......wtf is a "think tank".......

I've been on plenty of corporate retreats to former grand properties turned conference center.....but they usually have to be within a short drive of.....well corporations requiring such places......

Anywho.....I do like that the guy keeps throwing things against a wall to see what sticks......


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I found this quote to be very interesting:
> 
> _Stenger says he spent a day in May 2014 at the SEC's Miami field office, discussing the development with federal officials._
> *
> Makes you wonder if the primary interest is with Mr. Quiros.*



I'd say that's an excellent deduction, and the answer is almost certainly, yes.



River19 said:


> So Stenger wants to turn the Darling Mansion into a "retreat or Think tank"......*wtf is a "think tank".......*



A think tank is an entity that does research on a (usually) specific topic or group of subjects in mind.  In most cases, they're politically charged with either a strong left-wing or a strong right-wing bias, and *EXTREMELY* well-connected to very powerful people in DC.   

The only rational explanation for this odd choice, is that Stenger wishes to make more influential friends in Washington, likely to grease the wheels, etc....


----------



## River19 (Aug 7, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd say that's an excellent deduction, and the answer is almost certainly, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feared that was/is his version of a think tank........I was hoping he was using the phrase to describe something other than a place for well connected individuals to spend government grants studying politically charged topics.

From my understanding the Darling Mansion needs a couple million in deferred maintenance especially if it will be used for something like a B&B etc.  which it is ideally suited for but the numbers to make it work are staggering.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Aug 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Not necessarily.  Vermont, being a "tourist state", surely has qualified management locally that could have been tapped.
> 
> Remember that a big part of Stenger's deal is that it would create jobs for the locals.



this is a very simplistic statement. Stengers goal has always been to bring jobs to the NEK, so people stay here and the population stops its decrease. 

If I am a restaurant manager who moves to the NEK for a job at burke, and I stay here, buy a house, pay into the local economy, raise my family, who then, a generation removed, have jobs, isnt what Stenger was looking to do accomplished?

For what its worth I also know local Burke companies, who do to the rabid cyncicism of the posters on this thread I will not name, who have had very positive contracting experiences at burke. Within the last year.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2015)

As someone with extensive restaurant management experience, the challenge is always cost of living vs compensation balance.  Ownership always assumes people will be willing to take less to experience the "mountain lifestyle" and inevitably there ends up being rabid turnover.  I've got friends running high revenue restaurants in the Stowe area that get paid 50 cents on the dollar for what they'd make in the city, yet the cost of living is almost just as high.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 7, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> *Stengers goal has always been to bring jobs to the NEK, so people stay here*



Wait.......... You_ actually_ believe this?

Good Lord, I hope someone in your family padlocks your wallet.



deadheadskier said:


> I've got friends running high revenue restaurants in the Stowe area that *get paid 50 cents on the dollar for what they'd make in the city, yet the cost of living is almost just as high.*



Vermont is one of the worst places in America, RE: cost of living.  

Wages are generally low-to-modest, and taxation is very high (and rising).


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this is a very simplistic statement. Stengers goal has always been to bring jobs to the NEK, so people stay here and the population stops its decrease.
> 
> If I am a restaurant manager who moves to the NEK for a job at burke, and I stay here, buy a house, pay into the local economy, raise my family, who then, a generation removed, have jobs, isnt what Stenger was looking to do accomplished?
> 
> For what its worth I also know local Burke companies, who do to the rabid cyncicism of the posters on this thread I will not name, who have had very positive contracting experiences at burke. Within the last year.



I'm not sure where you are going here....I guess the main point is that you're saying that the point was to create decent jobs for the NEK...with some ad hominem attacks thrown in.  Gotta make up for lost time I guess.  :roll:

As to the jobs, well, initially I had the same opinion as you....that even entry level jobs are better than none and that the effect will be to create more economic activity and better jobs up the line, etc.  But some challenged me on that and I've thought about it and looked into it deeper.  

If that theory was correct, then Vermont, with a lot of its economy based on tourism for decades, should be a great place with good opportunities. But it is not.  In fact, a lot of the jobs that are open are low wage jobs that just cannot pay the bills for the average person.  I agree with what DHS said about the restaurant industry in particular....folks just assume that Vermont can pay less because the cost of living is less.  That is not true.  

Also, two years ago WCAX ran this portion of their series on the projects that explains that A LOT of the jobs are low-paying, temporary, and seasonal.  The better paying jobs are going to be fewer and farther between:

http://www.wcax.com/story/23909631/building-a-new-kingdom-part-3

So are my ideas simplistic?  I don't think so.  I've reflected and thought critically about it.  I've probably done more than the average person.  My conclusions may not be as rosy as yours, but it is what it is.  

And glad to hear that some are having better luck with the mountain.  I could honestly give you a long list of businesses that in the past have been burned badly by Burke.  And a lot of good employees who devoted their (professional) lives to the mountain and were unceremoniously shown the door a few years back by Q.  Guess who cannot find employees now?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Aug 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm not sure where you are going here....I guess the main point is that you're saying that the point was to create decent jobs for the NEK...with some ad hominem attacks thrown in.  Gotta make up for lost time I guess.  :roll:
> 
> As to the jobs, well, initially I had the same opinion as you....that even entry level jobs are better than none and that the effect will be to create more economic activity and better jobs up the line, etc.  But some challenged me on that and I've thought about it and looked into it deeper.
> 
> ...



Are you surprised resort town, seasonal jobs, are on the lower end of the pay scale? Really? You are describing what passes for an economy in the post- manufacturing age. To someone who think this is unique to Burke, or Vt in general, is wrong. We have societal ills of which EB 5 is a symptom, not a panacea. Until we figure out the return of manufacturing, then this dynamic will not be solved. 

And may I also add Vermont, with its legions of aging leftist hippys and new residents attracted to similar ideologies, is a TERRIBLE place for business. Fobes places it at #43 on its list of most business hostile states. the fact it has a strong tourist economy means nothing. So does Cape Cod- are you aware how much poverty there is on the Cape? Tourist economies are cherries on top of the pie. If we had a legislature that actually had a clue about encouraging business, perhaps Stenger wouldnt need to try to be riding in on his white horse, and dissapointing you and others with what is in his carriage.

And my statement was more a response to your idea of "local". It is rearward looking. Someone who moves here and sets down roots has just as much credibility to be part of the NEK than someone whose grandpappy was riding logs down the Connecticut. Please note, I was also responding to prior statements about workers coming into town for hotel jobs- I have no actual knowledge of this occurring. I do believe my analogy stands, regardless of your volume of rumination. I was not a local at one point. Now I am. So what exactly does your statement about "benefitting locals" mean? And I hate to say it, but if you dedicate years of your life to a corporate entity that CONTINUOUSLY fails, through multiple owners and multiple economies, should you expect permanent employment? If I bought Burke, I would clean house too. I dont want to sound like I am supporting some of the Q's more obnoxious decisions, but take the Q's out of the picture and basic business sense tells you that what went on the past simply was not working.

And if Burke cant find employees, where are they working? Kennametal? Ethan Allen? Please, tell me, who else is hiring on a large scale in the NEK?

Another thing. No one ever intends for low paying or minimum wage jobs to be the basis of a family life. But what if, where a housewife in Lydonville who up to this point could not find work to help support her family, she now has the opportunity to become a chamber maid at the hotel, albeit for less money than she prefers. Should she not take the job and contribute to her family's bottom line? of course she should, if she determines its the right thing to do. And you know what? her high school age kids, maybe they have jobs now that before did not exist. Do you really doubt the reality of this dynamic?

And Guess what? if they dont have any employees at (just giving a number) $8 an hour, or what have you, then... they need to pay more! if they can hire people at $8 an hour, then that is the going rate for labor. How many open positions where there are Jay last year with the supposed low wages? Anecdotally, I never once had a staffing issue in my many days of skiing/drinking/entertaining there, not once. So I guess the natural labor rate in the NEK is what they are offering. Are you not aware everyone in life thinks they are underpaid and bitches about it?

 if one were to read this thread in a vacuum, and then went to the NEK and actually saw all the work that has been done, they would not be able to circle the square on the multiple years of sky falling rhetoric from you and others.  

Yes long gone (it is summer you know, skiing website are not high on my reading list)  but the recent article in 7 Days, whose disengenous negative title was not backed up by the facts presented, has once again piqued my interest in this online BurkeFest.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 7, 2015)

I have a hard time believing that the EB-5 gods are better at picking projects that are sustainable and will generate wealth than traditional financing sources are.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I have a hard time believing that the EB-5 gods are better at picking projects that are sustainable and will generate wealth than traditional financing sources are.



That's the late Friday entrant for "Understatement of the Week".


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Are you surprised resort town, seasonal jobs, are on the lower end of the pay scale? Really? You are describing what passes for an economy in the post- manufacturing age. To someone who think this is unique to Burke, or Vt in general, is wrong. We have societal ills of which EB 5 is a symptom, not a panacea. Until we figure out the return of manufacturing, then this dynamic will not be solved.
> 
> And may I also add Vermont, with its legions of aging leftist hippys and new residents attracted to similar ideologies, is a TERRIBLE place for business. Fobes places it at #43 on its list of most business hostile states. the fact it has a strong tourist economy means nothing. So does Cape Cod- are you aware how much poverty there is on the Cape? Tourist economies are cherries on top of the pie. If we had a legislature that actually had a clue about encouraging business, perhaps Stenger wouldnt need to try to be riding in on his white horse, and dissapointing you and others with what is in his carriage.
> 
> ...



You've lost me.

What was wrong with the 7D story? I thought it actually was pretty fair and balanced. 




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2015)

And as to the question of where the locals are doing if there are no jobs, it's pretty obvious...they're leaving Vermont! Exhibit A right here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 




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## Masskier (Aug 9, 2015)

Big turn out at the Bike'N Brew yesterday.  Good music, food and drink.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2015)

The weather was perfect.  Good to hear.  


.


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## River19 (Aug 11, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Big turn out at the Bike'N Brew yesterday.  Good music, food and drink.



We made the call the avoid it and hang at the Tiki Bar instead....after years of doing the B n B the past couple have been "meh" so we figured we would avoid it again this year.

That being said, I'm glad it was a successful event, however I wish they would get more interesting beers in but I believe they are limited to a certain extent to what their current distributor carries.......but I could be wrong.  That was the story I got a couple years ago when I asked about some other VT breweries...

I also took a spin up the the hotel yesterday morning, the 50ish rigs & cars there predominately had green plates, which was nice to see..... once you get past the "I liked the view better without the building" phase the building if there has to be one looks nice.


The Foggy Goggle appears a ways away from opening up......I wish them luck.


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## dlague (Aug 11, 2015)

River19 said:


> The Foggy Goggle appears a ways away from opening up......I wish them luck.



Isn't that at Sunday River?  Actually it turns out there are several after doing a Google Search.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 11, 2015)

dlague said:


> Isn't that at Sunday River?  Actually it turns out there are several after doing a Google Search.



Yeah... Not an original name by any stretch. I will be surprised if they are open for ski season.


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## River19 (Aug 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yeah... Not an original name by any stretch. I will be surprised if they are open for ski season.



Based on how they are looking right now, I think if they bust their asses they could finish things in a couple months but I'm talking the physical pieces not the, hiring, supply sourcing, licensing, inspections, etc.  depending on how that goes that could push things out to Hotel Q time frame.

The joint looks small and like it was in rough shape to begin with so I'm sure they have been dealing with the bones of that structure.

I wonder if they can avoid the Burke Sulphur Water......


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## VTKilarney (Aug 11, 2015)

Lots of "before" photos of bike and brew but no "during" photos.  Makes me wonder just how many people turned out.


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## River19 (Aug 11, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of "before" photos of bike and brew but no "during" photos.  Makes me wonder just how many people turned out.



I thought the same thing.....and when I saw the specials of "mystery drafts until the kegs are kicked" I thought back to the first few Bike N Brews and we kicked the kegs even before the event was "over"....

It would be great if they built on the event that was started several years ago instead of rolling out the same old formula each year.  "Come pay $15-20 for 5 samples of the same beer you can get at the Tamarack or most bars in New England".....or go to Mike's and choose from the 25-30 they have on tap......

For a bike and brew.....it is the quality of the brew that gets the crowds......granted at least they got some limited release type stuff from the usual breweries.....points for trying

I could go down to the Lyndy Redemp and bang out a fantastic sampling compared to the B n B these days......


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## Masskier (Aug 11, 2015)

It was the busiest Bike N' Brew that I remember.  There were 50 different brews.  Good music too.


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## Masskier (Aug 11, 2015)

Burke will be launching a major marketing program for the Hotel and Resort soon.  It will be interesting to see how they tell the story.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 11, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Burke will be launching a major marketing program for the Hotel and Resort soon.  It will be interesting to see how they tell the story.


There's a story?  I've never really been into hotel stories, so maybe I'm missing something here.


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## River19 (Aug 11, 2015)

Masskier said:


> It was the busiest Bike N' Brew that I remember.  There were 50 different brews.  Good music too.



The first 4 B n' B's were awesome, the 5th was bleh and we rode in last year for thr 6th and saw very few folks standing around awkwardly which lead us to choose to avoid this year, combined with the "meh" beer list, 50 or not.......but that is what makes America great, opinions can vary.

I think Q marketing has already made improvements, there don't seem to be any awkward "mid event" shots from the Bike N Brew.......


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## Masskier (Aug 12, 2015)

The Super PoleCat's have arrived.

https://www.facebook.com/BurkeMtn/photos/pcb.10153587949873023/10153587946528023/?type=1&theater


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## Masskier (Aug 12, 2015)

You can see in the foreground the beginnings of the heated year round pool and jacuzzi, stating to take shape. (from the Face book page)


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## VTKilarney (Aug 12, 2015)

Do we know for sure that the pool will be open year-round?  If so, why would the hotel manager say otherwise?


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 12, 2015)

How long until some park rats build a kicker over that stone wall into the pool?


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## River19 (Aug 12, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> How long until some park rats build a kicker over that stone wall into the pool?



I was thinking it would be nice to do some drop-offs from the covered porch roof to the Evergreen storage container, then drop to dirt.....


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2015)

Major disappointment: the pool is not Q-shaped!  :lol:


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## ss20 (Aug 12, 2015)

Looks tiny, imo.


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## Smellytele (Aug 12, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Looks tiny, imo.



+1


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## ss20 (Aug 12, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Looks tiny, imo.





Smellytele said:


> +1



My first reaction was, "You guys have been complaining for 4500+ posts over that!"


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Do we know for sure that the pool will be open year-round?  If so, why would the hotel manager say otherwise?



I'm a bit surprised that it's not indoor considering the fair number of below zero (0 F) days there are. That will be a lot of energy to keep it heated.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm a bit surprised that it's not indoor considering the fair number of below zero (0 F) days there are. That will be a lot of energy to keep it heated.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




With like a sliding roof or dome or something... outdoor swimming in -25° temps just doesn't do it for me, I don't care how warm the water is, you have to get out eventually!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 12, 2015)

Attitash has a good set up at their Grand Summit hotel.  You enter the water from indoors and there's weather flaps heading to outside.  Too bad the rest of the hotel is like a Red Roof Inn.


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## SnowDogWax (Aug 12, 2015)

Only been to Burke 3 times. New Hotel looks great.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> With like a sliding roof or dome or something... outdoor swimming in -25° temps just doesn't do it for me, I don't care how warm the water is, you have to get out eventually!



Can you imagine walking in the cold from the Hotel to the pool?  As one who has done it, I can say it is painful....and I could not imagine if it was -25 F.  Hell, I don't think that Jay's pools are outside.


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## ss20 (Aug 12, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you imagine walking in the cold from the Hotel to the pool?  As one who has done it, I can say it is painful....and I could not imagine if it was -25 F.  Hell, I don't think that Jay's pools are outside.



I've done it in 15 F.  I think -25 would put you in shock


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## thetrailboss (Aug 12, 2015)

ss20 said:


> I've done it in 15 F.  I think -25 would put you in shock



Just found this picture of the first Q Pool Customer in - 25 F weather:









The place I stayed at in Park City a few years back had a inside-outside pool connected by a glass door (like a partially closed garage door).  It was about 30 F outside, so even though I stayed in the water the entire time I did not linger outside too long before swimming back inside.

I've seen conflicting information as to if the Burke Pool will be year-round or not.  Just because a pool is heated does not make it suitable for winter use.  And, again, think of all the energy being consumed just to keep it warm...even with a solar blanket/cover.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 13, 2015)

Sugarloafs giant outdoor hot tub is pretty sweet.  It's practically the size of a pool.  Definitely used it down around zero degrees.  No problemo.  Just had to run fast back indoors


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Just found this picture of the first *Q Pool* Customer in - 25 F weather:



This date in history

8/12/2015 - Trailboss finally refers to Burke by its proper Q prefix


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## VTKilarney (Aug 13, 2015)

I find it hard to believe that it will be open year-round.  If so, the design is severely flawed. 


.


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## Smellytele (Aug 13, 2015)

I have stayed at condos with outdoor pools heated in the winter. Northstar at K for example. It was hot enough when it was in the 20's/teen's. I have been in multiple hot tubs when it has been below zero. Hair does freeze if wet. Maybe they made the pool small for easier heating.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 13, 2015)

The hardest part about going in a outdoor pool in cold weather is obviously getting to the pool. Once you're in it's fine. Getting out is not bad because your body is warmed up. Kind of like going in a sauna then going outside & jumping in the snow. It takes a minute or so before the cold hits you. I'm speaking from experience since I've done both.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 13, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The place I stayed at in Park City a few years back had a inside-outside pool connected by a glass door (like a partially closed garage door).  It was about 30 F outside, so even though I stayed in the water the entire time I did not linger outside too long before swimming back inside.
> 
> I've seen conflicting information as to if the Burke Pool will be year-round or not.  Just because a pool is heated does not make it suitable for winter use.  And, again, think of all the energy being consumed just to keep it warm...even with a solar blanket/cover.



Sunday River Jordan Bowl pool is like that.  You get into it inside and can wonder out.


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## River19 (Aug 13, 2015)

Hey, I'm just glad they are continuing to build the friggin' thing without the Feds or State yanking the rug out from under the funding......I'd call that a victory.

we can nitpick any project on any mountain, finishing this thing would be a great step in the right direction.

Just wondering what the over/under is on fully clothed pool jumpers they will have at the LI prom next year.......


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## dlague (Aug 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you imagine walking in the cold from the Hotel to the pool?  As one who has done it, I can say it is painful....and I could not imagine if it was -25 F.  Hell, I don't think that Jay's pools are outside.



At Jay, the outdoor pool is closed in the Winter but the hot tubs are open year round and are outside.  Getting out of a hot tub when it is cold is not so bad since you are heated up and the distance is not far and once inside there is a bar (The Drink).  Or before you go outside there is a bar?  Either way!


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2015)

I've been in an outdoor rooftop pool in Quebec City when it was around 0 outside.  It was actually quite nice, like bathwater.  The trick is they started a tiny bit of the pool indoor so it's warm when you get in, then you swim under/through a wall of 1/2" flaps of plastic to the outside.  Seems a lot more intelligent and comfortable way to go about it then creating a 100% outdoor winter pool.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've been in an outdoor rooftop pool in Quebec City when it was around 0 outside.  It was actually quite nice, like bathwater.  The trick is they started a tiny bit of the pool indoor so it's warm when you get in, then you swim under/through a wall of 1/2" flaps of plastic to the outside.  Seems a lot more intelligent and comfortable way to go about it then creating a 100% outdoor winter pool.



Was that at the Chateau Frontenac?  I stayed there in 2010 and think it may have had that set up....


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## xwhaler (Aug 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Was that at the Chateau Frontenac?  I stayed there in 2010 and think it may have had that set up....


Or the Delta Hotel there? I stayed at the Delta both times I went to Quebec City and they had the setup you spoke of.


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 14, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Sunday River Jordan Bowl pool is like that.  You get into it inside and can wonder out.


You can see on the top left where it heads inside.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Or the Delta Hotel there? I stayed at the Delta both times I went to Quebec City and they had the setup you spoke of.



Now that I think of it the CF only had an indoor pool and we went out to sit on a roof deck.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2015)

I cant recall what hotel it was, but it wasnt the CF.  It was on a fairly high up floor as it offered a nice view of the city.  I'd love to get back there, only been once.


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## xwhaler (Aug 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant recall what hotel it was, but it wasnt the CF.  It was on a fairly high up floor as it offered a nice view of the city.  I'd love to get back there, only been once.



Quebec City is beautiful.... The old section is awesome for food and beer lovers. Never been to Europe but have heard QC is the closest comparable locally


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## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Quebec City is beautiful.... The old section is awesome for food and beer lovers. Never been to Europe but have heard QC is the closest comparable locally



+1. AMAZING food!


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## Not Sure (Aug 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Was that at the Chateau Frontenac?  I stayed there in 2010 and think it may have had that set up....



I stayed at De Governers on a high school trip 79-80 they had a thick plexiglass wall to swim under to get outside, had frozen hair after 20 min.

What a trip ! , The teacher who ran the trip was a stoner. The bus was in a fog 1/2 hr into a 12hr trip,very cold tuff sking , nightlife was out of control.
Went to see a band in Old city drank 10 Bradors and didn't make it to the men's room .
Staggered into the women's rm and puked in the sink. I don't remeber how I got back to the hotel.
I think he's still teaching but would never get away with that type of conduct these days LOL.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 14, 2015)

We've always stayed nord of the city. First couple of times rented a house in Tewkesbury. Last several times stayed at Le Manoir du Lac Delage. Both near Stoneham. Never stayed in QC itself. Indoor pool & hot tubs at Lac Delage


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## VTKilarney (Aug 15, 2015)

They finally posted some photos of Bike and Brew.  Not many crowd photos, but this one suggests that the crowd, while not particularly large, was better than last year.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They finally posted some photos of Bike and Brew.  Not many crowd photos, but *this one suggests that the crowd, while not particularly large, was better than last year.*



Geez; the bar must have been set low.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Geez; the bar must have been set low.



There is a lot of healing remaining still.


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## Masskier (Aug 16, 2015)

Interesting read in the Cal Record yesterday,


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*U.S. General Accountability Office Identifies Unique Fraud Risks In EB-5*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]_Stenger: GAO Report Will Benefit NEK Projects_[/FONT]
 




[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*By Robin Smith Staff Writer*[/FONT]


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## River19 (Aug 16, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Geez; the bar must have been set low.



Like I mentioned we rode in last year and saw a small awkward crowd..........honestly, in this pic, it isn't much better.  Looks like an 8th grade dance with an open dance floor.....

The first 4-5 Bike N' Brews had that whole area pretty much packed.  Everyone congregated there after a day of riding and had a blast hanging out and enjoying the vibe.  This was pre-tiki bar.......so it filled the need as a one-time gathering........maybe it jumped the shark.

I would need something compelling to get me up the mountain and away from the Tiki or my own deck.....that list of beers and events wasn't going to do it.


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## dlague (Aug 18, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> Quebec City is beautiful.... The old section is awesome for food and beer lovers. Never been to Europe but have heard QC is the closest comparable locally



Quebec City - We had a 350th Anniversary Reunion  of the very first mariage on my mother's side of the family in North America.  425 of the 850 living (at that time) showed up.  It was quite an event.  Love to walk around that city.  Been wanting to go back for winter carnival.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 18, 2015)

QC is my favorite city in North America that I've been to.  The combination of its Food, Architecture, History, Great Parks and how walkable it is can't be beat.  If it weren't for family, I'd give serious consideration to moving there.


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## dlague (Aug 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> QC is my favorite city in North America that I've been to.  The combination of its Food, Architecture, History, Great Parks and how walkable it is can't be beat.  If it weren't for family, I'd give serious consideration to moving there.



+1


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 18, 2015)

Quebec City is fantastic!   Montreal is great too.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> Quebec City is fantastic!   Montreal is great too.



It's funny that a recurrent theme is how bad Q is but we're all raving about "Q"uebec City! :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Aug 19, 2015)

Another article in the Caledonian Record today.  Q Burke lost a property tax appeal.  They argued that a half built hotel was worth $0.  The town town disagreed.  


.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2015)

dlague said:


> We had a 350th Anniversary Reunion  of the very first mariage on my mother's side of the family in North America.  *425 of the 850 living (at that time) showed up.*  It was quite an event.



That's not a "reunion", that's an invasion force.


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## AdironRider (Aug 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Another article in the Caledonian Record today.  Q Burke lost a property tax appeal.  They argued that a half built hotel was worth $0.  The town town disagreed.
> 
> 
> .




Of all the things to quibble about, this one seems a stretch. Every property owner tries their hardest to get the lowest tax bill possible, regardless of whether its a hotel, residential house, or just a wood lot.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 19, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Of all the things to quibble about, this one seems a stretch. Every property owner tries their hardest to get the lowest tax bill possible, regardless of whether its a hotel, residential house, or just a wood lot.



They didn't want just a low bill.  They argued that the bill for the hotel should be $0.  


.


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## halfpintvt (Aug 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They didn't want just a low bill.  They argued that the bill for the hotel should be $0.
> 
> 
> .



The value of the 25% completed hotel was around $5 Million. If the Grand List was reduced by that amount the overall tax rate would have gone up for everyone else.


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## River19 (Aug 19, 2015)

Or they can look at it like this:

One way to help amend for the paper cuts inflicted by D-Bag Jr is to soak up a decent tax bill (mind you not a crippling tax bill) for the town so the tax bills for current residents get some relief.


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## zeke (Aug 20, 2015)

i assume they'll keep the hot tubs open, not the pool-just like at Jay. probably too late to plan for a realistic year-round pool. just another example of them hurrying to put up the double-wide and get the eb-5 dollars instead of thinking the whole plan through and building something that fits the place and its needs.

on another note-any word on jr's status? read he was out and emptied his office months ago and then nothing. anyone have news on this front?


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## VTKilarney (Aug 20, 2015)

I heard that he still has his hands on food and beverage, but I don't know if that's true.  


.


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## buellski (Aug 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I heard that he still has his hands on food and beverage



I hope he washes them


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## faQ (Aug 21, 2015)

zeke said:


> i assume they'll keep the hot tubs open, not the pool-just like at Jay. probably too late to plan for a realistic year-round pool. just another example of them hurrying to put up the double-wide and get the eb-5 dollars instead of thinking the whole plan through and building something that fits the place and its needs.
> 
> on another note-any word on jr's status? read he was out and emptied his office months ago and then nothing. anyone have news on this front?



He is not out and never was. Stenger was brought in to "help" but since Bill works for Sr., Jr. Doesn't have to listen. That's my understanding anyway.  Kinda like the honey badger. 


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## River19 (Aug 21, 2015)

faQ said:


> He is not out and never was. Stenger was brought in to "help" but since Bill works for Sr., Jr. Doesn't have to listen. That's my understanding anyway.  Kinda like the honey badger.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



As long as that dude is around in any capacity, it is hard to embrace "change" for people.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2015)

River19 said:


> As long as that dude is around in any capacity, it is hard to embrace "change" for people.



Right, but the powers to be don't get it or care.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2015)

Burke just released their day prices...they seem lower than in the past:

$64 for adults
$47 juniors

Vermonter (non-holiday):

$52 adult
$40 junior

New website and the Q is still everywhere :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2015)

What do people think about the snowmaking situation for this coming winter?  I see that they are laying some pipe.  I'm not sure if it's just replacement pipe or something new.

Will wee see a legitimate improvement in snowmaking, or just a very incremental improvement?


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## WoodCore (Aug 26, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What do people think about the snowmaking situation for this coming winter?  I see that they are laying some pipe.  I'm not sure if it's just replacement pipe or something new.
> 
> Will wee see a legitimate improvement in snowmaking, or just a very incremental improvement?




Pipe means nothing without the pumping capacity to get water to it!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2015)

WoodCore said:


> Pipe means nothing without the pumping capacity to get water to it!



Bingo


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## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2015)

Let the discounting begin:

We're offering discounted Ski & Stay packages for the first few weeks the Q Burke Hotel will be open (December 11-26, 2015). This is a "ski free" deal. You cover the lodging, we'll throw in the lift tickets!
Two people can Ski & Stay from $109 per night in studio suite.
A family of 4 can Ski & Stay from $129 per night in a studio suite.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2015)

As seen in SKI magazine this month:




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## faQ (Aug 27, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> As seen in SKI magazine this month:
> 
> View attachment 17371
> 
> ...



Something seems to be missing but I can't Q.uite put my finger on it. 


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## Masskier (Aug 27, 2015)

I took a tour of the hotel today.  It is coming along nicely.  There was about 200 people on site working.  They are on schedule to open the entire hotel on Dec 11th.  The pool and hot tub will be ready for opening day.

Also work continues on the snow making upgrades.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 27, 2015)

Qbreaking News:  



> Summer, where did you go?  Change of season is in the air and although warmer temps were greatly enjoyed, we cannot WAIT until winter!  Why?
> 
> Well for starters, our $1 million snow making expansion is well underway with the installation of 20 state-of-the-art energy efficient fan guns ready to go on Warren's Way training hill.    The "old" guns removed from the Warren's Way have been re-purposed and placed on the infamous dipper trails. Permitting process is in its final stages and upon approval, we will begin construction of the new booster pump house station.





> Saturday, September 5th
> 12noon:  FREE Labor Day Picnic at Q Burke:  Water-slide for the kids, family-friendly games, and children's bike park
> _*12noon-5pm:  FREE Hotel Community Tours.  Must pre-register with guest services by calling (802) 626-7300 or email:  info@skiburke.com*_
> 5pm:  All you-can-eat Pig Roast.  Pre-purchase your tickets by clicking here.
> ...


----------



## oldtimer (Aug 28, 2015)

Referring to the snow making update, what makes The Dippers the "infamous dipper trails"?   that is a very odd phrase.

Was nice to see that SKI magazine has failed to drink the "Q" Qoolaid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Referring to the snow making update, what makes The Dippers the "infamous dipper trails"?   that is a very odd phrase.
> 
> Was nice to see that SKI magazine has failed to drink the "Q" Qoolaid.



I was wondering why they are "infamous" as well.


----------



## Masskier (Sep 4, 2015)

Good article in the Cal Record today, Worth the read,

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=145&ArticleID=136454&TM=70727.77


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## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Good article in the Cal Record today, Worth the read,
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=145&ArticleID=136454&TM=70727.77



It's behind a paywall


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## VTKilarney (Sep 7, 2015)

Word on the street is that BMA paid for the fan guns.  


.


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## yeggous (Sep 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that BMA paid for the fan guns.
> 
> 
> .



How reliable can that word really be? That seems like the exact sort of rumor that could start from some guys making baseless speculations. From there the rumor mill snowballs it until it takes on a life of its own.

I'm not saying word on the street is wrong. I'm just cautioning that this is entirely too convenient of a rumor.


----------



## SnowDogWax (Sep 7, 2015)

Hope this ski season starts off with a bang.. Will help Burke's new hotel


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## VTKilarney (Sep 7, 2015)

I was told by an employee of BMA.  


.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 7, 2015)

Wonder what $1M worth of snowmaking equipment does to the kid's tuition cost


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder what $1M worth of snowmaking equipment does to the kid's tuition cost



Probably nothing assuming that a generous benefactor is footing the bill. 


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 7, 2015)

Good practice believe nothing what you hear.. Half what you see.


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## Masskier (Sep 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that BMA paid for the fan guns.
> 
> 
> .



This is just a rumor


----------



## Masskier (Sep 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I was told by an employee of BMA.
> 
> 
> .



I find it hard to believe that an employee of BMA told you that.   Maybe you misunderstood him.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 7, 2015)

Masskier said:


> I find it hard to believe that an employee of BMA told you that.   Maybe you misunderstood him.



I asked point blank and was given a point blank answer.  But they could have been misinformed.  It was not an employee who would be making a decision at that level.

But it does make sense yacht BMA would do that.  Burke just got rid of their fan gun.


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## Steve@jpr (Sep 8, 2015)

*Everyone's right.  Exclamation point.*

BMA has contributed a sum of money for trail related enhancements that QB will be integrating next season.  None of the money has gone toward the fan guns.

Everyone is right.  That's the way to start off your week.



VTKilarney said:


> I asked point blank and was given a point blank answer.  But they could have been misinformed.  It was not an employee who would be making a decision at that level.
> 
> But it does make sense yacht BMA would do that.  Burke just got rid of their fan gun.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 8, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> BMA has contributed a sum of money for trail related enhancements that QB will be integrating next season.  None of the money has gone toward the fan guns.
> 
> Everyone is right.  That's the way to start off your week.



Thanks Steve for nipping that in the bud before it turned into a raging fire between those 2 lasting 10 pages.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks, Steve.

BTW, any chance that we can get the webcam back online?


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## Steve@jpr (Sep 8, 2015)

I'll ask the QB marketing team and report back.



VTKilarney said:


> Thanks, Steve.
> 
> BTW, any chance that we can get the webcam back online?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Sep 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Thanks, Steve.
> 
> BTW, any chance that we can get the webcam back online?



this!


----------



## the original trailboss (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks Steve (straight stories are scarce at the mountain) .  I have to ask this though - why do you respond instead of someone at Burke ?


----------



## Steve@jpr (Sep 8, 2015)

I think they're trying to fill that hotel of theirs.  I'm just kicking back with my feet high.  Figured I'd help.  I'm a helper.



the original trailboss said:


> Thanks Steve (straight stories are scarce at the mountain) .  I have to ask this though - why do you respond instead of someone at Burke ?


----------



## oldtimer (Sep 8, 2015)

Best answer on this board (not just this forum) in years..............................



Steve@jpr said:


> I think they're trying to fill that hotel of theirs.  I'm just kicking back with my feet high.  Figured I'd help.  I'm a helper.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Thanks, Steve.
> 
> BTW, any chance that we can get the webcam back online?



This not a live cam?

http://www.earthcam.net/projects/qburkemountain/resorthotel/index.php?cam=pano


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## dlague (Sep 8, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> This not a live cam?
> 
> http://www.earthcam.net/projects/qburkemountain/resorthotel/index.php?cam=pano



I think it take snapshots?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 8, 2015)

dlague said:


> I think it take snapshots?


The other camera offered live video.

Once the ski season starts I was hoping that they could back the camera to its original position so you can get a better idea of the conditions.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 8, 2015)

Ah, yeah probably. I'll have to remember to look tonight. Better than nothing though, as long as it's at least updated daily or more.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 8, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> I think they're trying to fill that hotel of theirs.  I'm just kicking back with my feet high.  Figured I'd help.  I'm a helper.


Nice one- thanks Steve !


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## faQ (Sep 9, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> I think they're trying to fill that hotel of theirs.  I'm just kicking back with my feet high.  Figured I'd help.  I'm a helper.



Haha. Now that's how PR is done!  Nice one. 


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## River19 (Sep 9, 2015)

Beautiful weekend up in the NEK.....hot like everywhere but couldn't ask for a better Labor Day weekend.

Trails were a little dry, could use some rain but I'll take these conditions.

Flew through lower J-Bar under the lifts the other day, lift line seemed short but consistent, maybe 10-12 riders deep for the time we saw it.

East Burke was absolutely packed.........the "Italian Goggle"/Foggy Goggle had a soft opening.....not sure how it went, then again as long as no one got sick a soft opening is what it is......not sure where people are going to park though.

Hotel looked like it is still coming along......


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## Masskier (Sep 9, 2015)

Heard, great reports on the "Foggy Goggle" soft opening.


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## fbrissette (Sep 9, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> I think they're trying to fill that hotel of theirs.  I'm just kicking back with my feet high.  Figured I'd help.  I'm a helper.



That's good because they need a lot of help.


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## Steve@jpr (Sep 9, 2015)

Agreed Francois but, hey, who doesn't?




fbrissette said:


> That's good because they need a lot of help.


----------



## River19 (Sep 9, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Heard, great reports on the "Foggy Goggle" soft opening.



Good to hear, some friends and friends of the family will be working there if all goes well with the place.

I've never known you to hear a negative report on anything......lol


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2015)

Pics of the fan gun work are on FB.


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## Masskier (Sep 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> Good to hear, some friends and friends of the family will be working there if all goes well with the place.
> 
> I've never known you to hear a negative report on anything......lol



Yea, I know,  I tend to be an optimist.  Though it is nice having another good restaurant in Burke.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 13, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> That's good because they need a lot of help.


Correct - the problem is that is all they have to sell right now. The personality, character, culture and vibe that is the soul of any ski area (each unique unto itself) is currently nonexistent at the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain Resort. Most former employees have left (or were dismissed early on), the local community is mostly turned off or lukewarm at best, their events now draw basically NO locals (witness the zero crowd at the special Bear Den opening Saturday) , two restaurants and Mike's Tiki Bar have opened in East Burke not because of the mountain draw but in spite of it. These new places are heavily staffed with former Burkies, and, I predict, they will draw lots of winter customers who have been turned off by the attitude, isolationism, and arrogance of the current president and CEO ( a fact he reiterates with nearly every utterance........ )  The marketing guru says they will maintain their hometown feel - really ?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 13, 2015)

I think what you are seeing is the inevitable consequence of Q Burke severing ties with Kingdom Trails.  This motivated people to think of KT and the village of East Burke as completely separate entities from the mountain.  The energy behind KT began to be directed toward the village and not at all toward the mountain.  The village blossomed. 

Q Burke could have been the hub of biking activity, or at least a co-hub.  But Ary made sure that never happened.  Now he gets the lift served bikers, but that's about it - and even most of them have dinner and a beer somewhere else.  

It was a HUGE mistake to shun KT.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think what you are seeing is the inevitable consequence of Q Burke severing ties with Kingdom Trails.  This motivated people to think of KT and the village of East Burke as completely separate entities from the mountain.  The energy behind KT began to be directed toward the village and not at all toward the mountain.  The village blossomed.
> 
> Q Burke could have been the hub of biking activity, or at least a co-hub.  But Ary made sure that never happened.  Now he gets the lift served bikers, but that's about it - and even most of them have dinner and a beer somewhere else.
> 
> It was a HUGE mistake to shun KT.



Not just KT, but the WHOLE community. And what did they gain? Nothing.


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## River19 (Sep 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think what you are seeing is the inevitable consequence of Q Burke severing ties with Kingdom Trails.  This motivated people to think of KT and the village of East Burke as completely separate entities from the mountain.  The energy behind KT began to be directed toward the village and not at all toward the mountain.  The village blossomed.
> 
> Q Burke could have been the hub of biking activity, or at least a co-hub.  But Ary made sure that never happened.  Now he gets the lift served bikers, but that's about it - and even most of them have dinner and a beer somewhere else.
> 
> It was a HUGE mistake to shun KT.



I think this is right on point.  We spend plenty of time in the village killing brain cells at Mike's after riding, etc. and no one....and I mean no one talks about the mountain.  You never hear people talking about "hey we're heading up the mountain for....."  or "we were up at the 'rack last night and.....".  It is really like the place fell off the face of the earth.  And to your point on the lift served guys/gals.....look at the parking lot for the Tiki at 3pm to 5pm and there are a good number of downhill rigs on vehicles coming in for beers, food, showers etc.  Not up at the mountain.  Sure they may get a bite to eat mid day quickly at the mountain followed by water, soda etc.......but that is not winning the war for F&B business.

Dan's new Foggy Goggle is doing well, some service kinks to work out like any new place but just in time for winter.

The post from OTB above about the vibe is also spot on........."sterile" and "desperate" is what I get anytime I roll through there.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> The post from OTB above about the vibe is also spot on........."sterile" and "desperate" is what I get anytime I roll through there.



Not the vibe that one wants to have in the hospitality/resort business if you ask me.  My feeling when I was there in February this year was that the vibe was dead.  Muted.  Sterile.  I never saw that at Burke before.  Folks were previously friendly and happy.  Maybe the sterile and muted vibe works in Massachusetts, but not the NEK.


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## River19 (Sep 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Not the vibe that one wants to have in the hospitality/resort business if you ask me.  My feeling when I was there in February this year was that the vibe was dead.  Muted.  Sterile.  I never saw that at Burke before.  Folks were previously friendly and happy.  Maybe the sterile and muted vibe works in Massachusetts, but not the NEK.



And given that much of the disrespect was spewed by Jr. in both written as well as verbal conversation and knowing Jr is still very much in the fold up there.....that certainly doesn't improve the relationship at all.  I asked some former Burkies and current Burkies if he was still around and they all gave me that look like, don't believe the hype, he's still very much involved and around.  The impression that I got was his existence and anything Q related just keeps that heavy sterile feeling up front and palpable.  

Hey listen, the hotel looks great, it is coming along on a schedule consistent with what they have been saying etc.  They look to have been working on some of the first phase of snow making improvements, albeit the jury is out on the effectiveness of that part.  But, make no mistake about it, what they will be left with is a very neutered vibe and what I can only describe as a complete disconnect from the local community. 

As mentioned above, it appears that the village of E. Burke and the people most responsible for the great vibe of the area, have all succeeded and grown in spite of Q not because of Q.  It feels like the surrounding towns are tighter in everything non-Q related.  KT is stronger than ever......think about it, if Q needed to raise money to keep going would ski pass holders have ponied up like the "Save Sidewinder" campaign did?  Wildflower is stronger and busier with KT having their winter headquarters there as well as VSS having a shop there.  Heck even the Mountain View seems to be thriving and busier than ever.

Interesting stuff.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> And given that much of the disrespect was spewed by Jr. in both written as well as verbal conversation and knowing Jr is still very much in the fold up there.....that certainly doesn't improve the relationship at all.  I asked some former Burkies and current Burkies if he was still around and they all gave me that look like, don't believe the hype, he's still very much involved and around.  The impression that I got was his existence and anything Q related just keeps that heavy sterile feeling up front and palpable.
> 
> Hey listen, the hotel looks great, it is coming along on a schedule consistent with what they have been saying etc.  They look to have been working on some of the first phase of snow making improvements, albeit the jury is out on the effectiveness of that part.  But, make no mistake about it, what they will be left with is a very neutered vibe and what I can only describe as a complete disconnect from the local community.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Good point about others stepping up to fill the void and the community supporting each other. 


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 15, 2015)

you guys are like bitter ex girlfriends 

heres the deal- you nattering nabobs of negativity are missing the point- nobody cares outside your coccoon!

Despite all the progress at burke, all the stuff that could have (perhaps may, but I think we can all agree less and less so) derailed this project with EB 5, the idiot Q's, etc., its all steaming along. But the tone here is the exact same as TWO YEARS AGO.

I would offer up your insights are clouded by your closeness, and of course level of caring, which is obvious. 

Let me be more succint- nobody cares!

the vast majority of people I know who ski burke could not give a rats behind about the drama you have all described, fretted over, and, agreeably, experienced. this is my subjective view, versus yours of constantly finding windmills of disrespect to tilt at.

Let me empiracally prove my point. Lets all agree that the population of East Burke, in fact, the whole NEK, never goes to Burke again.

Population of East Burke- 130
Population of NEK (last census)- about 64,000

Population of Worcester Ma- 182,000

Guess what? people in Worcester ski, and nobody cares about what Q said two years ago, or if old employees have been mistreated.

You guys are viewing the world through a viewpoint of your choosing, not saying your viewpoint is wrong (although I have been skiing burke a loooong time and dont agree at all with opinions that it is some kind of wasteland up there, as I have had zero conscience notice that things are now "different") but it is limited. I repeat- the people that i know who ski burke from out of state dont even know about what you all do, and dont care one bit. And that is the target audience.

carry on misanthropes


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## fbrissette (Sep 15, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> you guys are like bitter ex girlfriends
> 
> heres the deal- you nattering nabobs of negativity are missing the point- nobody cares outside your coccoon!
> 
> ...



So in essence, you are saying it is OK for QBurke to say fuck you to East Burke and KT because out of staters are a much bigger market ?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> So in essence, you are saying it is OK for QBurke to say fuck you to East Burke and KT because out of staters are a much bigger market ?



Sort of.    I took it to mean that they can crap on the local market all they want as long as their ex-local efforts are succeeding at increasing profit and bringing in the bodies and with it $$$$$, etc...   I actually thought it was a pretty good post*.




*EDIT: Other than the fact he doesn't know what "misanthrope" means.


----------



## dlague (Sep 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sort of.    I took it to mean that they can crap on the local market all they want as long as their ex-local efforts are succeeding at increasing profit and bringing in the bodies and with it $$$$$, etc...   I actually thought it was a pretty good post*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Think the meaning fits!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 15, 2015)

dlague said:


> Think the meaning fits!



It's a person who hates human beings and mankind in general.   Not real sure how that could apply here.  More suitable to the vegan granola crunchy recluse who lives in the woods and decries overpopulation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sort of.    I took it to mean that they can crap on the local market all they want as long as their ex-local efforts are succeeding at increasing profit and bringing in the bodies and with it $$$$$, etc...   I actually thought it was a pretty good post*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem with the OP's contention is that the mountain is getting clobbered in the summer.  I agree that there is a captive ski audience in the winter, but with all of the services that have cropped up in the village, there is going to be a lot of bleeding in the winter as well.  

The momentum to establish services off-mountain really took off when Q told the locals and partners to screw themselves.  The purpose of running a business is to maximize profit.  In this regard, pissing off those people was an epic fail.  He has lost a LOT of F&B money because of it.

You also neglect one very important reality...  We don't know if the hotel is going to break even.  I sincerely hope it does, but the fact that it was built with "free" money does not mean that it will be a success.  Now that it has been built, it NEEDS to be a success.  Q Burke simply can't afford to subsidize a large operating loss created by the hotel.

IMHO the key to the hotel succeeding is how well it does during the bicycling season.  Winter alone is not enough.  

As much as I hope the OP is right, the OP counted chickens that have not yet hatched.  

I believe that East Burke has a bright future.  I also view the hotel as a potential game changer in a positive sense.  Don't take my criticism for an overall lack of optimism.  The dust will settle one way or the other.


----------



## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> you guys are like bitter ex girlfriends
> 
> heres the deal- you nattering nabobs of negativity are missing the point- nobody cares outside your coccoon!
> 
> ...


While your big picture analysis of the scenario may be reality for Q, etc., historically, the entire community has always "been in this together" for the benefit of all. Ary  has chosen to step outside of that to the degree that the ski area might as well be located somewhere else. That go-it-alone mentality might work someplaces, but it has never yielded positive results here. Just sayin' (words from a lifelong NEK resident and Burkie - one with lots of traveling and business experience as well.)
Jeesh, Dave, we're not a bunch of ignorant, head-up-our-butts rednecks against everything. In fact, this area has a strong history of partnering and supporting lots of efforts. The onus for this attitude lies squarely with Ary.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I believe that East Burke has a bright future.



IMO the potential of East Burke lies in the KT a lot more than in the mountain.   There are lots of better/equivalent mountains to ski in Quebec and New England.  There are lots of better/equivalent lift-served mountain biking facilities elsewhere.  KT is what makes this place unique.

To me it is crystal clear that for everyone to really thrive optimally, QBurke needs to work with KT and the community. It is beyond me that they can't see that.  Dumb dumb dumb.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> IMO the potential of East Burke lies in the KT a lot more than in the mountain.   There are lots of better/equivalent mountains to ski in Quebec and New England.  There are lots of better/equivalent lift-served mountain biking facilities elsewhere.  KT is what makes this place unique.
> 
> To me it is crystal clear that for everyone to really thrive optimally, QBurke needs to work with KT and the community. It is beyond me that they can't see that.  Dumb dumb dumb.



Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *We don't know if the hotel is going to break even.*  I sincerely hope it does, but the fact that it was built with "free" money does not mean that it will be a success.



Depends what you mean.   

If you mean based on:

A)  A true financial analysis which includes the "free money" =  No. Never.  Not a chance.
B)  An analysis based on "free hotel" = maybe.  Too many variables/unknowns to know.  The early years should look good, it's after you're into it for several years it might become thinly staffed and you'll notice accoutrements & quality go down.  I'm pretty skeptical myself, though I'm not a malcontent.


----------



## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?




Yes, that has always been the case in both directions  (a few unhappy businesses did get stiffed in some early times, but the next owner always managed to work that back)  until this latest deal.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 15, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Yes, that has always been the case in both directions  (a few unhappy businesses did get stiffed in some early times, but the next owner always managed to work that back)  until this latest deal.



Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...


I know that on least one occasion the support from the community kept the ski area from closing.


----------



## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...




The history/explanation (multiple owners each with their own ideals,ideas)  for the second part of your question is beyond a Readers Digest version, but it is fair to say that both the community and the ski area have always worked together for a common purpose of improving the economy of the area. For example, the mountain's longest-term owner (an absolutely wonderful man,by the way) chose to invest in land around the ski area, rather than ski area infrastructure, in order to prevent Burke from becoming another Stowe. As a result, when he was forced into bankruptcy, the ski area owned 2,000 acres of land around a lagging infrastructure. The next owner, a real estate developer, saw 2,000 acres of land (much developable) that just happened to have a ski area in the backyard, etc., etc., etc.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Then the second part you didn't answer - "If so how has it helped out the owners?" Burke has been hurting for years through many past owners who have worked with the community...



I almost think this may be the thinking behind "Q". 
However is trying to maintain all those strong bridges with the local community somehow more expensive than the approach they are currently taking. Maybe ?



VTKilarney said:


> I know that on least one occasion the support from the community kept the ski area from closing.



But it didn't keep the owner that was losing the mountain from going out of business.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I almost think this may be the thinking behind "Q".
> However is trying to maintain all those strong bridges with the local community somehow more expensive than the approach they are currently taking. Maybe ?
> 
> But it didn't keep the owner that was losing the mountain from going out of business.



With the new hotel and plans to make Burke into a four season resorts, we are in a different paradigm in which working with KT and the community becomes even more a necessity IMO.  

You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.


You hit the nail right on the head.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 15, 2015)

Another way to look at this is the whole process has really helped businesses startup and grow in the village. Yes, a large part of that is due to the presence of Kingdom Trails. However, that expansion in town will only really help the mountain in the end. A thriving village can be a big part of the draw to the mountain. The lack of a real village is one of the big knocks against places like Jay, Mt Snow, etc. While places like Stowe, Okemo, and Sugarbush all receive praise for their vibrant villages. 
I also wonder if they will be able to claim a lot of the jobs that are being created in the village when it comes time to count them up for the EB5 qualifications (what am I talking about, of course those will be claimed!).


----------



## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Another way to look at this is the whole process has really helped businesses startup and grow in the village. Yes, a large part of that is due to the presence of Kingdom Trails. However, that expansion in town will only really help the mountain in the end. A thriving village can be a big part of the draw to the mountain. The lack of a real village is one of the big knocks against places like Jay, Mt Snow, etc. While places like Stowe, Okemo, and Sugarbush all receive praise for their vibrant villages.
> I also wonder if they will be able to claim a lot of the jobs that are being created in the village when it comes time to count them up for the EB5 qualifications (what am I talking about, of course those will be claimed!).




The formula they are allowed to use goes back further than those jobs - it can include additional supplier manpower required to support this gigantic uptick in business due (of course) to the ski area. Of course, Kingdom Trails, VAST, and a beautiful place to be has nothing to do with that growth.............


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> IMO the potential of East Burke lies in the KT a lot more than in the mountain.   There are lots of better/equivalent mountains to ski in Quebec and New England.  There are lots of better/equivalent lift-served mountain biking facilities elsewhere.  KT is what makes this place unique.
> 
> To me it is crystal clear that for everyone to really thrive optimally, QBurke needs to work with KT and the community. It is beyond me that they can't see that.  Dumb dumb dumb.



+ 1


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Have previous owners worked with the community? If so how has it helped out the owners?



YES.  

Burke has ALWAYS had a close relationship with the community.  When Northern Star went bankrupt in 2000, BMA and the locals scrambled to reopen it.  They were in the black that season.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  It was a great snow year.  But locals came to support the mountain.  It's always, by and large, been a local's mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> With the new hotel and plans to make Burke into a four season resorts, we are in a different paradigm in which working with KT and the community becomes even more a necessity IMO.
> 
> You won't fill a hotel with mountain bike downhillers.



Bingo


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> you guys are like bitter ex girlfriends
> 
> heres the deal- you nattering nabobs of negativity are missing the point- nobody cares outside your coccoon!
> 
> ...




As to the Worcester argument, hate to say it, but that market already goes to other places--namely Okemo, Snow, Wachusett, Crotched, etc.  Burke has always tried to get the SNE market, but it is very competitive and tough, especially in a tough snow year.  And the Burke market is, by and large, very local.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the Worcester argument, hate to say it, but that market already goes to other places--namely Okemo, Snow, Wachusett, Crotched, etc.  Burke has always tried to get the SNE market, but it is very competitive and tough, especially in a tough snow year.  And the Burke market is, by and large, very local.




 Was very local ......


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## VTKilarney (Sep 15, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Was very local ......



A lot of food and beverage business from locals has left, but the local skiers are a rather captive audience.


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## Smellytele (Sep 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> YES.
> 
> Burke has ALWAYS had a close relationship with the community.  When Northern Star went bankrupt in 2000, BMA and the locals scrambled to reopen it.  They were in the black that season.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  It was a great snow year.  But locals came to support the mountain.  It's always, by and large, been a local's mountain.


Doesn't sound like it helped owners only the mountain. Owner after owner went belly up. Things needed to change. They could not stay the same. The one owner bought the property around the place and went belly up. Maybe the area is seeing an uptick in businesses now because of the potential of business increasing because of the hotel. Narrow thinking has never help the mountain nor the area. Feelings were hurt and now people lash out.


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## faQ (Sep 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A lot of food and beverage business from locals has left, but the local skiers are a rather captive audience.



Bingo. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn't sound like it helped owners only the mountain. Owner after owner went belly up. Things needed to change. They could not stay the same. The one owner bought the property around the place and went belly up. Maybe the area is seeing an uptick in businesses now because of the potential of business increasing because of the hotel. Narrow thinking has never help the mountain nor the area. Feelings were hurt and now people lash out.



Of course they have helped the owners.  Not to go into too much detail, but there is more than meets the eye with the history of Burke.  The owner that OTB referred to was Doug Kitchell.  He ran the mountain from the 1960's through the mid-1980's.  He went under because of the economy and downturn in the real estate markets.  The next owner, Quinn (not Ginn), had similar issues and borrowed too much money.  Bear Kingdom Limited (1991-1995) had NO intention of actually running the place--the owner was using it to launder money and when Interpol went after him it all ended.  In fact, locals gave him temporary financing and loans in 1993 or so to keep things running.  Northern Star?  They had some bad winters and were not able to make loan payments on snowmaking.  They could not refinance.  Locals also tried to help them.  Their season pass rates were pretty high but they did (heavily) discounted promos for the locals.  This equals a loss.  That brings us to 2000 when BMA and their "local angel" bought the mountain and got the community VERY involved.  That lasted from 2000-2005.  Bobby Ginn/Lubert-Adler: that was the real estate bubble that did them in.  They did offer reasonably priced season passes.  They pretty much relied on locals to keep somewhat of a steady, albeit small, flow of business.  That brings us to Q and they are struggling probably worse than before but they won't tell us of course.  Why bite the hand that feeds you?  

You are right, locals alone cannot sustain the operation as it is, but it sure as hell is a big chunk of the business and certainly has been used as a foundation for many years.  It's easier to add business to existing customer-base than to completely start over.  But what do I know?  I apparently am a negative naive NEKer.


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## zeke (Sep 16, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> So in essence, you are saying it is OK for QBurke to say fuck you to East Burke and KT because out of staters are a much bigger market ?



i'd say this is true-it's a business first and foremost. the issue is that it seems the quality of offering is going down for those out of staters. less manmade snow (2 summit trails x-mas week?), food quality down miserably, snowsports taking leaps backwards. who is gonna come spend money there if the product is less than it was when they had nothing? a shiny hotel might buy some reprieve, but if they don't up the quality of the product, they'll be left with nothing except a disgruntled 64,000 people and an empty hotel


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> i'd say this is true-it's a business first and foremost. the issue is that it seems the quality of offering is going down for those out of staters. less manmade snow (2 summit trails x-mas week?), food quality down miserably, snowsports taking leaps backwards. who is gonna come spend money there if the product is less than it was when they had nothing? a shiny hotel might buy some reprieve, but if they don't up the quality of the product, they'll be left with nothing except a disgruntled 64,000 people and an empty hotel



+ 1


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

Trailboss- Worcester is an example... thats all... c'mon now.

The NEK on its own right has proven totally incapable of supporting Burke. Doug Kitchel lost money EVERY YEAR he owned Burke, long before the days of over-leveraged developers, and but for some agreeable local banks Burke would have had bankruptcy issues long before the rest.

The definitiof of insanity is repeating something that continously fails.

Burke needed a new start and EB 5 is it. The whole intent of my post was to illustrate that the the series of grievances you all speak to are a microcosm of the potential Burke world. Best to get on with nursing your wounds and either stay away, or agree to keep skiing there. The Q's are here to stay, and all the doom and gloom has been, if not unwarranted, not indicative of the reality of the progression of the development of Burke.

 I am also of the opinion that Stenger and Quiros have a far better understanding of EB 5 than any one else, and they have proved this by their seemingly "teflon" status and ability to keep raising funds in the face of high profile issues. Pretty amazing, and something I have an immense amount of awe at as a former corporate stooge. Further, the recent turmoil in Chinese equity markets is a HUGE boon to EB 5 and ease of raising capital.

To that end, I hope you are all looking forward to the indoor aquatics center (ha ha ha)


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> So in essence, you are saying it is OK for QBurke to say fuck you to East Burke and KT because out of staters are a much bigger market ?



no, and I dont see anywhere where I have made such an assertion, and have consistenly stated I think the dissasociation from KT was insane.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss- Worcester is an example... thats all... c'mon now.



But, as I said, Burke has always tried to get more of the SNE market.  It certainly is a share of their business, but saying that you ignore those in your backyard and go after a very saturated market is ridiculous.  You obviously try to capture both.  They are not mutually exclusive.  



> The NEK on its own right has proven totally incapable of supporting Burke. Doug Kitchel lost money EVERY YEAR he owned Burke, long before the days of over-leveraged developers, and but for some agreeable local banks Burke would have had bankruptcy issues long before the rest.



Read above.  You need both.  



> I am also of the opinion that Stenger and Quiros have a far better understanding of EB 5 than any one else, and they have proved this by their seemingly "teflon" status and ability to keep raising funds in the face of high profile issues. Pretty amazing, and something I have an immense amount of awe at as a former corporate stooge. Further, the recent turmoil in Chinese equity markets is a HUGE boon to EB 5 and ease of raising capital.



I don't think that anyone disagrees that Stenger is an expert at EB-5.  He's also a great resort operator and I think a lot of folks thought he would run Burke more so than he has.  However, to say that they have "teflon" status at this juncture I think is a bit premature.  A lot of their projects have been delayed because of funding shortfalls.  Stenger himself has admitted that he is having more trouble getting investors.  Time will tell, but they are indeed moving ahead.


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> i'd say this is true-it's a business first and foremost. the issue is that it seems the quality of offering is going down for those out of staters. less manmade snow (2 summit trails x-mas week?), food quality down miserably, snowsports taking leaps backwards. who is gonna come spend money there if the product is less than it was when they had nothing? a shiny hotel might buy some reprieve, but if they don't up the quality of the product, they'll be left with nothing except a disgruntled 64,000 people and an empty hotel



Zeke- would you not agree any business that is experiencing large changes has growing pains? Last year was really year 1 for the Q's, lots of pains. So be it, lets hope they learned- the snowmakiing mea culpa's and new investment are indicative that they are not deaf to your justifiable compliants.

perhaps my viewpoint is tainted as I have been involvled with many business projects that had massive growing pains but ultimately succeeded. What you describe as issues are all easily fixed. It is the larger theme at Burke that has changed, and that is a far more important narrative (and one which has been continously missed here).


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> But, as I said, Burke has always tried to get more of the SNE market.  It certainly is a share of their business, but saying that you ignore those in your backyard and go after a very saturated market is ridiculous.  You obviously try to capture both.  They are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> agree. just making the point that the NEK is a bump on a log as compared to the overall available market.



That "bump on a log" makes up a very significant portion of Burke's market.  It, alone, is not enough to sustain the business, but you can't just ignore it.  And to be clear it is not just "locals" complaining/grimacing in pain over Q's missteps.  When you think of it, the locals are the captive market.  When Q pisses off someone from SNE, or they have a bad experience, as zeke pointed out driving several hours to ski two runs off the summit that are in marginal condition, they have many more options and go elsewhere.  While they are elsewhere they tell others about their "Q" experience.  

Being an asshole in the hospitality business generally does not work.


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 16, 2015)

They need to grow skier visits.  Then why alienate the locals?   It seems that is at cross purpose.


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That "bump on a log" makes up a very significant portion of Burke's market.  It, alone, is not enough to sustain the business, but you can't just ignore it.  And to be clear it is not just "locals" complaining/grimacing in pain over Q's missteps.  When you think of it, the locals are the captive market.  When Q pisses off someone from SNE, or they have a bad experience, as zeke pointed out driving several hours to ski two runs off the summit that are in marginal condition, they have many more options and go elsewhere.  While they are elsewhere they tell others about their "Q" experience.
> 
> Being an asshole in the hospitality business generally does not work.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Agree. Nothing in that statement is unique to Burke though and things that work against other areas, such as liftlines, illustrate the choice is not binary, as you seem to allude. Burke/bad, go elsewhere. Well, other places can suck too, i would argue ON WHOLE the burke experencies still smokes anything south of Cannon or Sugarbush (where giant crowds of idiots are the norm and the skiing suffers as a result).



When there is snow, the skiing experience at Burke, as in the skiing itself, is great.  We're talking about the service aspect though...or lack thereof.  



> and one other example of how its not a binary choice, which is close to you out in Utah- Park City locals were up in arms over Vail taking over PCMR, correct? Well... what do you know... Vail credited Park City with its great fiscal year! Peoples enmity was easily overcome by the Epic Pass. Lets see what happens at burke this year to move the ball forward. People are motivated by myriad things, and I dont think a singular experience is that dispositive.



No.  That example does not work.  Not everyone liked the Vail move, but I can say that MOST folks in PC and Utah were happy with the move.  The only furor was from Mr. Cumming and POWDR who lost their shirts (but "Daddy" saved them in the end).  If anything, that example works against you because the locals were getting fed up with POWDR's management and now are thrilled with Vail's improvements and better service.  




> If Burke was a stock would you BUY it right now, or SELL it? lets assume for purposes of the exercize its trading at a low multiple



Good question.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> If Burke was a stock would you BUY it right now, or SELL it? lets assume for purposes of the exercize its trading at a low multiple



Meaning it's currently trading at trading towards the low point of it's range?


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Meaning it's currently trading at trading towards the low point of it's range?



a low multiple does not infer a range nor did I intend that statement. Plenty of companies IPO at low multiples. Your overthinking it 

well, have at it people? BUY or SELL?


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> When there is snow, the skiing experience at Burke, as in the skiing itself, is great.  We're talking about the service aspect though...or lack thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes but your response furthers my point also- equate POWDR Corp. with a bankruptcy auction... which do you prefer?

I wonder if some of the bitterness expressed by varius posters is due to the utter dearth of alternatives to the Q.. and, in the inverse, perhaps my statements of optimism are driven by that also....


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> yes but your response furthers my point also- equate POWDR Corp. with a bankruptcy auction... which do you prefer?



You're moving the goal posts there.  Your comparison was based on the incorrect assumption that Park City residents by and large hated Vail.    

As to the new comparison, I still don't think it is really that helpful.  And the difference between Ary and POWDR is HUGE.  Most PC skiers were upset about nickle and diming things.  Not the owner being a complete asshole, making personal attacks on individuals, and burning multiple bridges.  The comparison just does not work because folks by and large skied at PCMR because they liked it.  POWDR was not being outright hostile to its customers and community.     

I've said it before, but the only comparison that I think matches Q is the former Ascutney owners.  They made the ski area about "them" and burned lots of bridges.  Where are they now?  The area is NELSAP.  To answer your question, all of the locals skied elsewhere.  



> I wonder if some of the bitterness expressed by varius posters is due to the utter dearth of alternatives to the Q.. and, in the inverse, perhaps my statements of optimism are driven by that also....



I think it's pretty clear that the folks are very passionate about Burke and that the ownership has burned a lot of bridges.


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## Masskier (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> a low multiple does not infer a range nor did I intend that statement. Plenty of companies IPO at low multiples. Your overthinking it
> 
> well, have at it people? BUY or SELL?



Of course I would Buy :-D.


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## the original trailboss (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> a low multiple does not infer a range nor did I intend that statement. Plenty of companies IPO at low multiples. Your overthinking it
> 
> well, have at it people? BUY or SELL?




I wouldn't sell yet as the stock can't get any lower .....


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> If Burke was a stock would you BUY it right now, or SELL it?



Neither.  I'd find the book runner and short it.   Must be horribly run.


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## crank (Sep 17, 2015)

Honestly, if Burke was a stock would anyone ever have recommended it as a buy?

How many owners have been and gone?

Any of them make a profit?

Not a Q fanboy, just seems like Burke has always struggled just to get by.  I think Q is crazy for alienating the locals, but I can see how they might feel the need to shake things up and not do business as usual.


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## DJAK (Sep 18, 2015)

The single biggest reason not to be seen as an arrogant dunce in an industry and 50 mile radius is....... staffing. 

None of this other stuff you are discussing comes in even a close second. Resorts have zero chance of forward progress if the 10-20 key positions around the resort turn over constantly and get filled with lesser and lesser talent, that still turns over. The actions of the owner control this directly and thus dictate the success or failure of their vision. In hospitality, a leader cannot lead without a strong, committed and unified team. Otherwise they are leading a slow boat to somewhere. 

Plenty of (usually newbie single owner) resorts have struggled with this over the years, but as long as there is enough money, time can heal the wounds, and perhaps that time is soon.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2015)

DJAK said:


> The single biggest reason not to be seen as an arrogant dunce in an industry and 50 mile radius is....... staffing.
> 
> None of this other stuff you are discussing comes in even a close second. Resorts have zero chance of forward progress if the 10-20 key positions around the resort turn over constantly and get filled with lesser and lesser talent, that still turns over. The actions of the owner control this directly and thus dictate the success or failure of their vision. In hospitality, a leader cannot lead without a strong, committed and unified team. Otherwise they are leading a slow boat to somewhere.
> 
> Plenty of (usually newbie single owner) resorts have struggled with this over the years, but as long as there is enough money, time can heal the wounds, and perhaps that time is soon.



+1


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## Big Wave Dave (Sep 21, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I wouldn't sell yet as the stock can't get any lower .....



really? Guess you missed the bankruptcy auction then.


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 21, 2015)

We need snow way to much time on our hands...


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## the original trailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> really? Guess you missed the bankruptcy auction then.




I was there?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

SnowDogWax said:


> We need snow way to much time on our hands...



+ 1


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2015)

This may be of interest:



HowieT2 said:


> http://www.theatlantic.com/business...et-wealthy-foreigners-buy-citizenship/406432/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2015)

So just saw on the Cal Rec that Burke is appealing the tax valuation of the (incomplete) Hotel Q to the state.  I can't see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but if I had to guess the town valued it to include the (partial) improvements to the land and Q thinks it should be $0 increase because the Hotel is not done and worth $0 as a business.


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## Smellytele (Sep 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So just saw on the Cal Rec that Burke is appealing the tax valuation of the (incomplete) Hotel Q to the state.  I can't see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but if I had to guess the town valued it to include the (partial) improvements to the land and Q thinks it should be $0 increase because the Hotel is not done and worth $0 as a business.



I thought this was already posted in this thread


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> I thought this was already posted in this thread



I think that is the first round of appeals to the Town; now they are in Superior Court I think.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2015)

I don't have the article in front of me, but my recollection is that the appeal is to the state's Division of Property Valuation and Review.  You have the choice between filing the appeal with the state agency or with the local superior court.  It's interesting that they believe that they have a better chance with the state than with the local judge sitting in their own county.

IMHO it's a losing argument.  Property has value even if it is not yet open and generating income.  Someone looking to build a hotel would pay more for a new, partially built hotel than a vacant lot.  That's just common sense.  But apparently they want expect sense to be thrown out the window.


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 24, 2015)

I think it sucks they have to pay taxes on a property under construction that is not generating revenue.  Its only going to hurt the business which is hurting enough already.  Taxes suck.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> I think it sucks they have to pay taxes on a property under construction that is not generating revenue.  Its only going to hurt the business which is hurting enough already.  Taxes suck.



The valuation wasn't that much - especially in light of the overall construction cost.  They chose to build the hotel.  They should have expected to pay taxes on it even if it wasn't completed.  Nobody likes paying taxes, but this was completely foreseeable.


.


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## SnowDogWax (Sep 24, 2015)

They knew what the tax situation was and if not shame on them. But I do agree taxes suck.


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## faQ (Sep 24, 2015)

Taxes do suck, but if I were to say...pour a foundation, with the intent to build on it someday,  the town would tax me on that improvement.  If you were only taxed on "finished" improvements, there would be a lot of "unfinished" buildings around here. 


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2015)

faQ said:


> Taxes do suck, but if I were to say...pour a foundation, with the intent to build on it someday,  the town would tax me on that improvement.  If you were only taxed on "finished" improvements, there would be a lot of "unfinished" buildings around here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




kind of like Mexico


My brother spends a lot of time in Mahahual.  Many of the homes still have rebar coming out of the roof as they "intend" to add a second story.  They don't have to pay taxes on the building as it's considered unfinished property.


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## halfpintvt (Sep 24, 2015)

I took a look at their EB5 filing, they estimate that the hotel would be open 21 days the first year of operation and their property tax expense would be ZERO! The 2nd year of operation they estimate their property tax expense at $240,000 and each year after that they estimate their property tax expense to be $480,000. Bill Stenger has done business in Vermont for many years and knows the way property taxes work. I have no idea how he thought he would pay ZERO the first year and 1/2 the usual bill in the 2nd year. I guess they will be appealing their property value next year too!


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## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2015)

And on top of it they are wasting money on an appeal.  Talk about doubling down on a bad idea.  


.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> *I took a look at their EB5 filing, they estimate that the hotel would be open 21 days the first year of operation and their property tax expense would be ZERO! The 2nd year of operation they estimate their property tax expense at $240,000 and each year after that they estimate their property tax expense to be $480,000. *Bill Stenger has done business in Vermont for many years and knows the way property taxes work.* I have no idea how he thought he would pay ZERO the first year and 1/2 the usual bill in the 2nd year. *I guess they will be appealing their property value next year too!



Are only 50% of the rooms projected to be open next year?  That could logically explain why the estimate is 1/2 of the long-term estimate. 

 In terms of this year, however, that makes no sense.  Based on their own partial estimate they'd generate a tax liability of roughly $13,800 for the 21 days of operation assuming you straight-line it.


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## faQ (Sep 24, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> I took a look at their EB5 filing, they estimate that the hotel would be open 21 days the first year of operation and their property tax expense would be ZERO! The 2nd year of operation they estimate their property tax expense at $240,000 and each year after that they estimate their property tax expense to be $480,000. Bill Stenger has done business in Vermont for many years and knows the way property taxes work. I have no idea how he thought he would pay ZERO the first year and 1/2 the usual bill in the 2nd year. I guess they will be appealing their property value next year too!



But...Stenger in not running things, Jr. is. 


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## Smellytele (Sep 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> And on top of it they are wasting money on an appeal.  Talk about doubling down on a bad idea.
> 
> 
> .


Kind of like Goodell


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## River19 (Sep 25, 2015)

So if I operate half a store in a retail space I only have to pay 50% of the taxes?  Not how this works....that's not how any of this works......


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## the original trailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

Sad to report that Ary has lost another (major) cog (I"m sure he doesn't see it that way) - Mountain Manager (who also wore many other hats) Jason Lefevre gave his notice last week.


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## River19 (Oct 1, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Sad to report that Ary has lost another (major) cog (I"m sure he doesn't see it that way) - Mountain Manager (who also wore many other hats) Jason Lefevre gave his notice last week.



Yikes.  Bad news, I heard he was a solid contributor and a decent dude.  Tough time of the year to not have that position filled with some continuity.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 1, 2015)

I heard that earlier this week.  The timing is certainly not good - especially with the hotel opening soon.


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## faQ (Oct 1, 2015)

He was a good one for sure. 


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 1, 2015)

Ugh...


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## fbrissette (Oct 1, 2015)

It deserves the famous double face palm.


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## Big Wave Dave (Oct 1, 2015)

how many GM's does that make lost?

can we get Steve from JP back on here to explain why this idiot Ary is still allowed anywhere near Burke?

this story is getting old. Starting to wonder if Ary is the idiot fall guy for his dad's sinister, Madoff-esque plans


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## faQ (Oct 1, 2015)

Anybody read current SKIING magazine?  Apparently we are the Easts best kept secret.  


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

faQ said:


> Anybody read current SKIING magazine?  Apparently we are the Easts best kept secret.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I will look for that.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

The snowmaking is sure to be really great this season :roll:

It's certainly time to hit the reset button on this one....Q-2 needs to go build planes....just declare victory and go home.  Bring in Steve and/or one of Bill's good mountain ops guys and leave them alone.


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## WoodCore (Oct 1, 2015)

faQ said:


> Anybody read current SKIING magazine?  Apparently we are the Easts best kept secret.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




If the service at the new hotel is anything like the service I received at the "Rack" last weekend, I think they should keep it a secret!!


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## faQ (Oct 1, 2015)

That's the second bad review I've heard of the restaurant this week.  To be fair though, it's the only 2 reviews I've heard in a really long time. 


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## River19 (Oct 1, 2015)

faQ said:


> That's the second bad review I've heard of the restaurant this week.  To be fair though, it's the only 2 reviews I've heard in a really long time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



One of the least frequently reviewed places on Yelp in the area.....1 review in the past year or so.....either no one goes to the rack anymore (I can't say I've been in a long long time) or the people that do go, just don't really give a shit to review it either way....

I haven't found a local that has been to the Rack by choice in quite some time.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

WoodCore said:


> If the service at the new hotel is anything like the service I received at the "Rack" last weekend, I think they should keep it a secret!!



I just got an Email the other day about the Hotel's opening.  It had a nice discount for a room and talked about the new restaurants and shops there.  I also heard on the Channel 7 (LSC) story that they have 300 job openings.  They could not fully staff the ski area last season due to, well, an obvious management issue.  I really don't see how they are going to hire enough staff to run the Hotel.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Oct 1, 2015)

I saw the note in Ski magazine. liked the quip about overdue investment in such a worthy area (NEK). 

they are giving those rooms away non-holiday. I may have to pick one up for a night just to swim in a heated pool and look at willoughby!


----------



## faQ (Oct 1, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I saw the note in Ski magazine. liked the quip about overdue investment in such a worthy area (NEK).
> 
> they are giving those rooms away non-holiday. I may have to pick one up for a night just to swim in a heated pool and look at willoughby!



I didn't read that one. The one i saw was skiing magazine. It did mention ary being the reason for the Q, probably to clarify it wasn't a typo. 


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

faQ said:


> I didn't read that one. The one i saw was skiing magazine. It did mention ary being the reason for the Q, probably to clarify it wasn't a typo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Was that this season?  I recall one last season.  FWIW SAM, Ski, Skiing, and even Powder have lambasted Ary for the name move.....


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2015)

Only strengthens his resolve unfortunately.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Only strengthens his resolve unfortunately.......



Exactly.  

And I, too, do not go to the Rack when I am up there.  My family and friends go to local restaurants.


----------



## faQ (Oct 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Was that this season?  I recall one last season.  FWIW SAM, Ski, Skiing, and even Powder have lambasted Ary for the name move.....



Yep. October 2015 issue. 


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## the original trailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I just got an Email the other day about the Hotel's opening.  It had a nice discount for a room and talked about the new restaurants and shops there.  I also heard on the Channel 7 (LSC) story that they have 300 job openings.  They could not fully staff the ski area last season due to, well, an obvious management issue.  I really don't see how they are going to hire enough staff to run the Hotel.



What is the $15 resort fee listed in the fine print ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> What is the $15 resort fee listed in the fine print ?



Unfortunately a lot of hotels and resorts charge this "fee".


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2015)

Really stupid to charge the fee.  Just put it in with the room rate.


----------



## yeggous (Oct 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Really stupid to charge the fee.  Just put it in with the room rate.



Yes, it is just the way to hide costs. They play this game to make the room look cheaper on paper. I consider it a dishonest business practice.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 2, 2015)

Is it true that the travel agent doesn't get a commission on the resort fee?

No matter how you slice it, it's a way to hide costs.  Consumers HATE resort fees - and for good reason.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Really stupid to charge the fee.  Just put it in with the room rate.



+ 1

It's kind of like buying airfare.  You want to bring bags?  That's $25 each bag.  You want something to eat?  You have to pay for that. You want a chance to get overhead carry-on space?  Need to pay.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1
> 
> It's kind of like buying airfare.  You want to bring bags?  That's $25 each bag.  You want something to eat?  You have to pay for that. You want a chance to get overhead carry-on space?  Need to pay.



It's worse though because you can't refuse the service and fee.  You can't say, "I'm not using the pool, I'm not paying the fee."


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It's worse though because you can't refuse the service and fee.  You can't say, "I'm not using the pool, I'm not paying the fee."



Very true.  I was thinking of that after I hit "send."  And a lot of airlines are simplifying things with things.


----------



## the original trailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

I forgot to mention it is a daily $15 resort fee....


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 2, 2015)

And let's not forget that the hotel's facilities hardly justify any sort of resort fee.


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I forgot to mention it is a daily $15 resort fee....



That's $15 for the most awesome Q experience you can imagine and YOU WILL LIKE IT!!!! 


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## LONGBOARDR (Oct 3, 2015)

The resort fee is applied at all Q resorts.
Jay Peak for example does. 20?/day
They supply a coupon book of discounts to justify, not worth it IMO.
But if you do the math, it is quite the nice revenue enhancer.
Well worth the negative vibe in their eyes.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2015)

Right, but they could do the coupon thing and look like rock stars if they just snuck the fee into the room rate.  Even though at the end of the day the consumer would pay the same, they don't feel as though they're being nickel and dimed on everything.  It only looks even shadier because they slip the fees into the fine print.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Right, but they could do the coupon thing and look like rock stars if they just snuck the fee into the room rate.  Even though at the end of the day the consumer would pay the same, they don't feel as though they're being nickel and dimed on everything.  It only looks even shadier because they slip the fees into the fine print.



Especially since they have no competition per se.


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## burski (Oct 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Right, but they could do the coupon thing and look like rock stars if they just snuck the fee into the room rate.  Even though at the end of the day the consumer would pay the same, they don't feel as though they're being nickel and dimed on everything.  It only looks even shadier because they slip the fees into the fine print.


If you put the fee in the room rate then it goes to the hotel revenue stream and needs to be split with EB5 investors. If you keep it separate it goes into Q's pocket alone.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2015)

Is the same true for F&B revenue and other profit centers?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2015)

burski said:


> If you put the fee in the room rate then it goes to the hotel revenue stream and needs to be split with EB5 investors. If you keep it separate it goes into Q's pocket alone.



That's a good point. Also consider that they are deeply discounted rooms at this point. So guess who is going to be taking the hit financially?


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## whitemtn27 (Oct 4, 2015)

To be fair, on their website it says "All Rates are subject to a $15/day Resort Fee" right in the main body of the room details.

Now, I haven't been to Burke since the whole Q thing happened.  I have stayed at Jay's Tram Haus which, although pricey, is really nice.  We went for one of their end-of-season blowout deal weekends and had a great time.  So I thought maybe we'd splurge and check out the new Hotel Burke.

Thing is though, these rates are... ah... not competitive.  The 30% off promo brings the cost down to the right ballpark, but the $90 in hot tub fees for a long weekend bumps it back up above similar lodging elsewhere.  Do they really think the product is worth a super-premium price point?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 4, 2015)

whitemtn27 said:


> To be fair, on their website it says "All Rates are subject to a $15/day Resort Fee" right in the main body of the room details.
> 
> Now, I haven't been to Burke since the whole Q thing happened.  I have stayed at Jay's Tram Haus which, although pricey, is really nice.  We went for one of their end-of-season blowout deal weekends and had a great time.  So I thought maybe we'd splurge and check out the new Hotel Burke.
> 
> Thing is though, these rates are... ah... not competitive.  The 30% off promo brings the cost down to the right ballpark, but the $90 in hot tub fees for a long weekend bumps it back up above similar lodging elsewhere.  Do they really think the product is worth a super-premium price point?


Should only be 45 extra for a long weekend.


----------



## whitemtn27 (Oct 4, 2015)

Yes, per person... but I'd be booking for 2 people.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2015)

Wait, the $15 fee is per person?  Not per occupied room?


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 4, 2015)

Surely it's per room.  That's the industry standard.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 4, 2015)

It's per room:
http://qburke.com/visit-burke/stay/lodging-policies/


----------



## prsboogie (Oct 4, 2015)

How exactly is 615.00 Sun-Tue a bargain?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> How exactly is 615.00 Sun-Tue a bargain?



Like Donald Trump, Q will blow your mind at how awesome he is and you will feel so thrilled that he gave you such a great deal.


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## prsboogie (Oct 4, 2015)

That's for the clarity! Just wasn't feeling the love I guess.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> That's for the clarity! Just wasn't feeling the love I guess.



:lol:

You mean tough love from Q? 


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## prsboogie (Oct 5, 2015)

^^this^^


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2015)

prsboogie said:


> ^^this^^



The first resort that has tough love for its customers, employees, and guests!  :lol:


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Oct 9, 2015)

burski said:


> If you put the fee in the room rate then it goes to the hotel revenue stream and needs to be split with EB5 investors. If you keep it separate it goes into Q's pocket alone.



what are you basing this on? How can revenues derived from the hotel amenities, which is what resort fee's are, be a different revenue stream? by similar logic, are the restaurants revenues also not hotel revenues?

curious, do tell.

Sign of the times- my FA recently started charging me for the paper they use to prepare my statements! everything is a hidden fee these days.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> what are you basing this on? How can revenues derived from the hotel amenities, which is what resort fee's are, be a different revenue stream? by similar logic, are the restaurants revenues also not hotel revenues?
> 
> curious, do tell.
> 
> Sign of the times- my FA recently started charging me for the paper they use to prepare my statements! everything is a hidden fee these days.....



They make separate entities and account accordingly.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 9, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> what are you basing this on? How can revenues derived from the hotel amenities, which is what resort fee's are, be a different revenue stream?
> 
> curious, do tell



I don't see that as logical either, but with "creative" accounting, logic often doesn't apply.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2015)

We certainly don't have any information to indicate that resort fees are being diverted.  

I've heard that staff "changes" may not be over.  A lot depends on what happens in the next few weeks.  I know of at least one person who is going to make a decision soon.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Oct 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> They make separate entities and account accordingly.



is this factual? or are you speculating.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> is this factual? or are you speculating.



I did not say that Q was doing this; I merely explained how it is done. It's done for accounting purposes--one entity pays the other. It's done at many places. 


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## faQ (Oct 10, 2015)

VTKilarney;916549

I've heard that staff "changes" may not be over.  A lot depends on what happens in the next few weeks.  I know of at least one person who is going to make a decision soon.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Staff changes?  Who's left?  Base-area ops. guy got cut loose last week or so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## AdironRider (Oct 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I did not say that Q was doing this; I merely explained how it is done. It's done for accounting purposes--one entity pays the other. It's done at many places.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Seriously. This is par for the course at most hotel properties. 

Last one I worked at had 12 separate entities. I can't speak directly to Burke's accounting structure, but at the hotel I was working at, it was primarily to limit liability between different facets of the hotel, as well as to delineate performance of individual aspects of the hotel and their resulting revenues/costs. 

For example, there were three separate entities for condo units throughout the hotel, one for private ownership that isn't rented, one for private ownership that is rented short term, and one for hotel owned condos (basically ones that haven't sold) that are rented short term. Each restaurant or bar was a separate entity, and so on and so forth. Say they put a new roof on the place down the line, private condo owners are responsible for their respective portion along with the hotel ownership group. Each entity would pay their respective share of that liability or expense, just like the hotel will take their cut from the revenues for managing rentals of privately owned units, and so on and so forth. 

This not only separates liability, but also allows you to see the individual performance of different revenue generating departments. Another example being there will be multiple food outlets, rather than just one large bucket you can see the individual performance of say the lobby bar vs. the sit down restaurant, and so on and so forth. 

How each revenue stream gets divvied up is relatively unique to each property, but there are GAAP standards for lodging and hospitality properties that keep things relatively uniform.

In this case, the resort fees usually cover the maintenance and upkeep of facilities, as well as operations of non revenue generating amenities throughout the hotel, and are spent accordingly. Think that "free" coffee in the lobby, or the bowl of apples, or your share of the wear and tear on common room furniture, the list goes on. Just like airlines, customers are rate sensitive, so you never wrap these fees into the generic room rate as it will result in lower occupancy rates guaranteed.

So in a way the investors are making it up on the backend when they don't have to dump more capital into the joint to pay for day to day shit, and can just take their room rental income. Most owners don't want to get cash calls every three days to clean the carpets, etc.


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## Masskier (Oct 10, 2015)

Looks like most of the new super polecats are installed.

And the web cam is up again

http://qburke.com/mountain-biking/the-trails/weather-and-conditions


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## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Looks like most of the new super polecats are installed.
> 
> And the web cam is up again
> 
> http://qburke.com/mountain-biking/the-trails/weather-and-conditions



I was there today. They're half-way up the Training Hill. They are "supposed to" go to the top of the Poma. Looks like they're still working. I heard that the Willoughby Quad will be certified to run this year...if needed. Most concerning is (1) the trails aren't mowed, and (2) there's A LOT of work left on the Hotel. Specifically the northern (facing the Willoughby Gap) side of the eastern wing had no siding up at all...just Typar. The pool is also coming along. 



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## Masskier (Oct 11, 2015)

They were cutting the training hill this morning


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2015)

Masskier said:


> They were cutting the training hill this morning



Good. I was going to go up this morning again to get some pics but had a late night at a certain family member's home.


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## Masskier (Oct 12, 2015)

This weekend has been packed.   Both in the village and on the mountain.  It was the busiest I've seen on the mountain in some time.


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## River19 (Oct 13, 2015)

Friday night was relatively dead due to weather......we hit the Goggle for the first time;

They are doing a decent job there, some things to work on but overall a good option for many diners, but seating is limited when the outside cannot be used.

Saturday and Sunday, couldn't tell you about the mountain.....we were too busy hunting in the woods all over the NEK to think of Burke 

Yesterday the town was still alive with leaf peeping bikers enjoying the perfect freaky warm fall weather.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 13, 2015)

River19 said:


> Yesterday the town was still alive with leaf peeping bikers enjoying the perfect freaky warm fall weather.


It was VERY nice yesterday. Unfortunately, I wasn't riding.



Burke_MTB by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It was VERY nice yesterday. Unfortunately, I wasn't riding.
> 
> 
> 
> Burke_MTB by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



Nice pic.  And Town was mobbed on Saturday morning.


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## Big Wave Dave (Oct 15, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Seriously. This is par for the course at most hotel properties.
> 
> Last one I worked at had 12 separate entities. I can't speak directly to Burke's accounting structure, but at the hotel I was working at, it was primarily to limit liability between different facets of the hotel, as well as to delineate performance of individual aspects of the hotel and their resulting revenues/costs.
> 
> ...



nice explanation. thank you.


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## halfpintvt (Oct 21, 2015)

Preview of things to come. Taken Sunday morning from Darling Hill


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## SnowDogWax (Oct 21, 2015)

Not long... Anyone hit Killington this past weekend.


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## halfpintvt (Oct 28, 2015)

Article in Todays VT Digger:  15 Tram House foreign investors have filed a complaint with the State of Vermont

Almost half of the immigrant investors in a  development at Jay Peak Resort have filed a formal complaint with the  state of Vermont, alleging they were treated unfairly by the lead  developers. Fifteen investors claim the owners of Jay Peak Resort improperly  changed the terms of the deal where they invested $500,000 each in the  construction of the Jay Peak hotel and adjoining facilities. 
 The Tram Haus Lodge project, which opened in 2009, was the first of  several large-scale projects planned in the Northeast Kingdom by  developers Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros. They have raised more than  $500 million through a federal program called EB-5 that allows  foreigners to gain U.S. residency in return for a financial investment.
 In the complaint filed with the state Department of Financial  Regulation late last month, 15 of the 35 investors in the project said  they won’t get their money back as quickly as originally promised and  that they were not properly notified when Stenger and Quiros changed the  terms of their investment.
 According to Tony Sutton, a spokesman for the disgruntled investors,  they went to the state regulators after the state agencies that promote  and oversee the EB-5 program rejected the investors’ concerns.





Tony Sutton, one of 35 Jay Peak Phase 1 investors. Courtesy Photo

“Despite  our best efforts to communicate our concerns to the Vermont Regional  Center it became clear that (Commerce Secretary) Patricia Moulton and  (former EB-5 regional director) Brent Raymond saw no wrong in anything  that was taking place with investor funds through the Jay Peak EB-5  program and took the questionable position that Bill Stenger was acting  within his remit as General Partner and refused to examine just how he  should be acting as a fiduciary,” Sutton said. Susan Donegan, commissioner of the Department of Financial  Regulation, did not respond to a request for comment about the  complaint. DFR recently took over regulation of the EB-5 projects in  Vermont and has undertaken a financial review of several other projects  planned by the developers for which they are currently trying to raise  money.
 Moulton also declined comment on a “pending matter.”
 Stenger said he was unaware the most recent complaint had been filed  with DFR. He said the Tram Haus investors would receive all of their  money back, and the new deal is more secure than the original one the  investors made, which some of them dispute. 
 Stenger has acknowledged failing to tell the investors about the  change in the deal until long after it happened, calling that “a  mistake,” but he maintains that he had the legal authority to change the  deal.
 “I have heard nothing of this subject from any Phase I [Tram Haus]  investors or from DFR,” Stenger said. “We continue to focus on the  repayment of our Phase 1 investors and are on schedule for their next  payment in January 2016. They will be totally repaid by January 2018.”
 Thirty-five immigrants sought permanent residency in exchange for a  $500,000 investment in the Tram Haus Lodge project as part of the EB-5  program. The investments are called “at risk,” and investors understand  there is no guarantee they will be repaid.
 According to Sutton, the investors were to receive interest on their  investment and get all of their original $500,000 back by the end of  2013.
 The Tram Haus investors were the first to invest with Stenger and  Quiros. They say their ownership stake was converted into a loan without  their knowledge on Aug. 31, 2013. They also said they weren’t notified  of the change until January 2014 and were not sent the new agreement and  loan details until May 2014. 
 Under the new deal, which is not backed by a collateral property at  the resort, the investors are to receive $21,500 per year for four years  and the remaining balance in 2018. The first two payments toward the  $500,000 principal have been made, according to Sutton. The investors  say the original deal was more secure and they would have received their  investment back sooner.
 When the Tram Haus ownership-to-loan conversion was made public in August 2014 in a VTDigger story, Stenger apologized for the lack of communication with investors and acknowledged he made a “mistake.” 
 In addition to state regulators, the federal Securities and Exchange Commission is  reviewing some of the Jay Peak-related projects. The scope of that  investigation is unclear. Jay Peak principals Stenger and Quiros have  been subpoenaed, and the SEC has asked the developers for financial  information.





Rep. Peter Welch, Bill Stenger, Sen. Patrick Leahy, Sen. Bernie Sanders, Gov. Peter Shumlin, Ariel Quiros and Bill Kelly.

Stenger  and Quiros have raised $545 million to expand Jay Peak Resort and the Q  Burke ski resort, and to build a biotech facility that would  manufacture medical devices. They say their projects will be a huge  economic boost to a depressed region of the state. More than 800  immigrants have invested in eight of their projects. Six have been  completed; two are slated for or under construction, and two other  planned developments do not have approval for EB-5 funds through the  Vermont EB-5 Regional Center. Sutton says the investors he has been working with are frustrated  that state officials did not listen to their concerns. He also says it  has been difficult to file the complaint with state regulators.
 A group of 20 investors have been seeking assistance from the state  and say their attempts to draw attention to the way Jay Peak handled  their investment was rebuffed. The disgruntled Tram Haus investors sent  emails in May 2014 to the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center and the  Department of Financial Regulation.
 Sutton says months went by and investor complaints were not addressed  by the regional center, which is a part of the Agency of Commerce and  Community Development. Responsibility for fiscal oversight of EB-5  projects was transferred from the regional center, to the Department of  Financial Regulation in January. 
 Investors then filed multiple complaints with DFR, Sutton says, but  these, too, were ignored. It wasn’t until late September this year that  officials from the department told Sutton that each of the investors  needed to fill out a formal complaint form in order for the department  to review the allegations. 
 Sutton says the investors are now waiting for the complaints to be  passed to the SEC for a formal investigation. The Tram Haus investors  are now being contacted by investors in the other phases of the Jay Peak  development who Sutton says are “alarmed at the news that is being  communicated to them by Jay Peak in relation to their exit strategy and  repayment.”
 According to Sutton, in addition to changing the financial terms,  Stenger and Quiros also did not consult with investors about two other changes made to their limited partnership agreement.  One of the amendments gave Quiros an ownership stake in the hotel.  Neither alteration was approved by investors, and Stenger has said he  did not need to consult with the 35 limited partners in the Tram Haus  because he had the legal right to amend the agreement and dissolve the  partnership. 
 While it is unclear the scope of the federal regulatory review,  Donegan has said state regulators are looking forward, not backward, at  Jay Peak projects, focusing on whether financial statements support  allowing investments in two projects not yet built or completed: AnC Bio  Vermont, the biotech facility, and Q Burke, a ski resort under  construction in West Burke. Both projects were suspended by the regional center last summer when Stenger and Quiros did not provide requested financial information. 
 While neither project has been fully reinstated, the state has  allowed Stenger and Quiros to solicit funds from foreign investors for  AnC Bio and Q Burke with the stipulation that the money must be held in  escrow. Funds for Q Burke have been released for construction expenses  under the purview of a third party administrator who is reviewing  expenditures.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

Not good.  And Tony Sutton looks like an alien from the X-Files.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 28, 2015)

In other news...

This morning's sunrise over Burke:


OctoberSunrise_Burke by Tim_NEK, on Flickr

Still lots of work to get done in the next 1.5 months :-o


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> In other news...
> 
> This morning's sunrise over Burke:
> 
> ...



Yes. Saying 12.11 is ambitious.  Hope they make it.


----------



## dlague (Oct 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes. Saying 12.11 is ambitious.  Hope they make it.



Keep in mind that video was recorded much earlier - look at the trees not many had changed color yet.  That was a snapshot in time about a month ago.


----------



## wtcobb (Oct 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> Keep in mind that video was recorded much earlier - look at the trees not many had changed color yet.  That was a snapshot in time about a month ago.



Based on the date of the title, 10/1. A lot can get done in 3 weeks time...


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## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

dlague said:


> Keep in mind that video was recorded much earlier - look at the trees not many had changed color yet.  That was a snapshot in time about a month ago.



I wondered if it was 10.1.15.  I was up there a week later and they had progressed on some exterior work, but one side of a wing had no siding on it.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I wondered if it was 10.1.15.  I was up there a week later and they had progressed on some exterior work, but one side of a wing had no siding on it.



It still didn't last week. But siding is pretty easy to put on in the grand scheme. The interior finish work is what can take a lot of time. You can't paint and lay flooring at the same time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It still didn't last week. But siding is pretty easy to put on in the grand scheme. The interior finish work is what can take a lot of time. You can't paint and lay flooring at the same time.



Yeah, interior work takes A LOT of time.  From what I saw in that video there is A LOT of finish work to do.

I was happy to see the new fan guns installed along Warren's Way all the way down to the base of the MBX.  Looked good.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 28, 2015)

No pictures of the new fans?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> No pictures of the new fans?



I did not get any.  Odd as it sounds I know.  I was up Saturday, had a family funeral that afternoon, and intended to return on Sunday before catching my flight back home but ran out of time.


----------



## River19 (Oct 29, 2015)

Well here's hoping they bang out the interior work.  I wonder if the plan is to open with a % of the rooms/suites completed and a portion still as WIP.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well here's hoping they bang out the interior work.  I wonder if the plan is to open with a % of the rooms/suites completed and a portion still as WIP.



It seems that despite their PR that this has been the plan with the wing on skier's right opening first.  I base that on how work has progressed.....at least what we can observe.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

There are still rooms available for Christmas week.


.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

Here is a very recent construction update. 

http://qburke.com/our-direction/development-updates/october-hotel-development-updates/


.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a very recent construction update.
> 
> http://qburke.com/our-direction/development-updates/october-hotel-development-updates/
> 
> ...



Nice pics.  Looking good.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice pics.  Looking good.


Progress is indeed being made. The last picture even has the bridge from the parking area visible.

I wonder what local artists they chose to hang on the walls in the rooms?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Progress is indeed being made. The last picture even has the bridge from the parking area visible.
> 
> I wonder what local artists they chose to hang on the walls in the rooms?



Do we know that they chose any local artists?  Maybe they said they had but I missed it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Progress is indeed being made. The last picture even has the bridge from the parking area visible.
> 
> I wonder what local artists they chose to hang on the walls in the rooms?



No doubt that the artwork will be pictures of Q, Q-2, their family, and of all their awesome accomplishments.    Only look at every single sign in the place and you can see that it is more a tribute to the awesomeness of Q instead of having any connection to the local area.  

On a serious note, I think that would be a good question for the last regime that would have done a nice job connecting with the community and its craftsfolk.  But I know that a lot of NEK artists don't want anything to do with him.  So I would expect SOME Vermont art but probably stuff that was bought through other outlets.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

I know of at least one local artist who very much wants to have a commercial relationship with the Q dynasty.  You don't have to look too far...


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I know of at least one local artist who very much wants to have a commercial relationship with the Q dynasty.  You don't have to look to far...
> 
> 
> .



I know one as well, but I also know several that don't (including one who was "informed" by Q that his handcrafted Burke Mountain mugs needed to be changed to "Q Burke Mountain" mugs).


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

You are correct.  The example I referred to is the RARE exception.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I know one as well, but I also know several that don't (including one who was "informed" by Q that his handcrafted Burke Mountain mugs needed to be changed to "Q Burke Mountain" mugs).



So they don't want the business? 

I have no qualms with artistic integrity but it often is a large part of why they are "starving" artists.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> So they don't want the business?
> 
> I have no qualms with artistic integrity but it often is a large part of why they are "starving" artists.



They don't want the "Q-attitude".


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

Fair enough, I've told plenty of guys who want to sell my wares to pound sand. 

But I probably wouldn't tell the mountain I design mugs after, and am completely reliant upon for the most part, to pound sand.  

Basically, like any business does, you put up with some more shit from your biggest clients, as opposed to someone who wants to buy three of them and put them in their little boutique.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

You are failing to realize something.  If you re-design a mug to prominently feature a "Q", the mug is not going to sell.  So now you've made a product that won't sell, and alienated the local stores selling locally crafted products.  

That's not a very good business strategy.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

I highly doubt this artist is selling on consignment. In this scenario, Q is the sole customer. 

It would be Q's problem if they didn't sell, not the artists. They can always just sell the regular Burke mugs to other venues, but who do you think is going to place the largest order? Q. 

Telling your biggest customer to pound sand is not a very strong business strategy.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

If the mugs don't sell, Burke isn't going to be your biggest customer in the long run.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

So you seriously think she is making a strong business decision. Get your emotions of Q out of the picture and its a bad move. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that Q Burke is a better brand, but it currently is THE brand. If this artist wants to sell just a few mugs to a few boutiques in the economic powerhouse known as the NEK, so be it. But on a pure business level, its the wrong decision.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Fair enough, I've told plenty of guys who want to sell my wares to pound sand.
> 
> But I probably wouldn't tell the mountain I design mugs after, and am completely reliant upon for the most part, to pound sand.
> 
> Basically, like any business does, you put up with some more shit from your biggest clients, as opposed to someone who wants to buy three of them and put them in their little boutique.



Said products were NOT sold on the mountain but in town at independent shops.  Q was NOT even a customer, but decided to contact the artist to say that the items needed to say "Q Burke Mountain" because that was the mountain's name.  Hence why Q was not well received.  That is true about a lot of other crafts and products based on BURKE Mountain in that they are NOT sold at the mountain but in town and around the community and Q's belief that it is Q Burke Mountain.  

When I went to the Mountain's shop in March they had very little in terms of "local" products.  Some maple syrup, some food, some pewter figurines of Burkie Bear made by a Burlington craftsman, but none of these products.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

Nice article about the Burke Ski Swap and its history:  

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=138891

It's this weekend FWIW.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Said products were NOT sold on the mountain but in town at independent shops.  Q was NOT even a customer, but decided to contact the artist to say that the items needed to say "Q Burke Mountain" because that was the mountain's name.  Hence why Q was not well received.  That is true about a lot of other crafts and products based on BURKE Mountain in that they are NOT sold at the mountain but in town and around the community and Q's belief that it is Q Burke Mountain.
> 
> When I went to the Mountain's shop in March they had very little in terms of "local" products.  Some maple syrup, some food, some pewter figurines of Burkie Bear made by a Burlington craftsman, but none of these products.



Well that is a bit of a different scenario, I was operating under the presumption he was looking to buy, but needed the (in his eyes as the owner) the correct logo. 

That is just horseshit and good for the artist.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Well that is a bit of a different scenario, I was operating under the presumption he was looking to buy, but needed the (in his eyes as the owner) the correct logo.
> 
> That is just horseshit and good for the artist.



Agreed.  My bad for not making that clearer.  Snowing down here in the Wasatch.  How about up by you?


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

Bits and spurts down here in the valley but 8k and higher should have some accumulation today. Had 2" or so on Teton Pass this morning during the commute. 

The turn definitely hit this week. Was pretty balmy up until Monday.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

It was 70 degrees when I went to lunch today.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It was 70 degrees when I went to lunch today.
> 
> 
> .



I see it is warm up there ("Indian Summer" perhaps).  I agree that (fingers crossed) things have shifted here to winter.  Snow in the forecast for the next few days on and off.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I see it is warm up there ("Indian Summer" perhaps).  I agree that (fingers crossed) things have shifted here to winter.  Snow in the forecast for the next few days on and off.



Today we were on the warm side of a large storm (formally the hurricane that hit Mexico last week). Those tropical based systems drag a lot of warm air up in front of them. Getting cooler again tonight.


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Do we know that they chose any local artists?  Maybe they said they had but I missed it.



They put out a call for local artists, craftsmen, etc early this past summer to submit their work for the new hotel. I submitted my photography for consideration but I have not heard a thing. Maybe they are waiting until the paint is dry before deciding what to hang on the wall?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> They put out a call for local artists, craftsmen, etc early this past summer to submit their work for the new hotel. I submitted my photography for consideration but I have not heard a thing. Maybe they are waiting until the paint is dry before deciding what to hang on the wall?



Not much time left.  I wonder if they actually followed through or if they went the Chinese route.  


.


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## River19 (Oct 30, 2015)

Last time I checked the physical mountain is Burke Mountain and the ski resort is the only part that is Q-ucked up.......so I'd be making anything I wanted with Burke Mountain on it......it's not like BMA is changing to QBMA.....

Based on the pics, it seems like there is an awful lot of Q themed crap in there......is that normal for Independent Ski hotels? (I don't stay in mountain hotels so I really don't know).

If it were a Marriott affiliated thing etc. I would expect logo items and branding as you would at any commercial hotel, but as a stand alone independent hotel....it feels......a little smug/arrogant/self serving.....


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## deadheadskier (Oct 30, 2015)

Definitely normal.  It's promotional advertising


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## River19 (Oct 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Definitely normal.  It's promotional advertising



Thanks

Well the good news is that I'll never be staying there so I don't have to see it lol


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Not much time left.  I wonder if they actually followed through or if they went the Chinese route.


I know a lot of the furniture has been locally sourced. Maybe my photos are too expensive or not what they are looking for .


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## deadheadskier (Oct 30, 2015)

Ary probably thinks he can get the same photos with his iPhone6


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2015)

How much is he willing to pay for the techno music soundtrack that will play in the lobby?


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ary probably thinks he can get the same photos with his iPhone6



Or they are going to use photography taken by the staff that QBurke would technically own. The base lodge had some photos on the walls last year that I believe were taken by someone on staff. They were quite good shots of various things on and around the mountain too (I'm not talking about the phone POTDs from last year where they just snapped a quick pic of the area near the base lodge  ).


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I know a lot of the furniture has been locally sourced. Maybe my photos are too expensive or not what they are looking for .



Here is a sampling of what guests can expect to see....your photos just don't capture the essence of the Q experience I guess:







A man with a Q-mission:






"I'm watching you!"






"I make it snow."  






"Drop and give me 20."






The Most Awesome Hat You'll Own


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## River19 (Oct 30, 2015)

Lol......it really is a bad logo, it just is......


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## mbedle (Oct 30, 2015)

Come on!!! You really think this:



was better than this:



I actually like the logo. And to be honest, most people would not even notice the "Q" in it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Come on!!! You really think this:
> 
> View attachment 17744
> 
> ...



The owner's first initial did not appear in the former logo as it does now!


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## AdironRider (Oct 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Here is a sampling of what guests can expect to see....your photos just don't capture the essence of the Q experience I guess:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man there is just something about hoteliers that makes them full of themselves. When I worked for the Four Seasons you couldn't turn a corner without seeing a life-size image of Isidore Sharp (the founder) staring back at you. They made us read his auto-biography of how awesome he thinks he is as manager training also. That was rich.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 30, 2015)

All Marriotts I've been in have a picture of JW and Bill Marriott too.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> All Marriotts I've been in have a picture of JW and Bill Marriott too.



I'm just joking around...and all Marriotts I've stayed at have a single portrait of Dad and Bill in the lobby. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Oct 30, 2015)

Oh I know

But your jokes are very truthful!!!


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## Masskier (Oct 30, 2015)




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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh I know
> 
> But your jokes are very truthful!!!



They can be!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 30, 2015)

Masskier said:


>



The secret of the new snowmaking technology has been revealed! By turning everything upside-down efficiency is increased 47% and snow retention during warm spells is increased 52%!
;-)


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 30, 2015)




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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The secret of the new snowmaking technology has been revealed! By turning everything upside-down efficiency is increased 47% and snow retention during warm spells is increased 52%!
> ;-)



It's showing right side up on my iPhone.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## halfpintvt (Oct 30, 2015)

Hanging in the lobby of Hotel Jay.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Hanging in the lobby of Hotel Jay.



Seriously?! Their expressions are funny!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2015)

The matching outfits is pretty creepy.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2015)

Are those real or a joke? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## halfpintvt (Oct 31, 2015)

These photos are real. I saw them hanging in the lobby of hotel at Jay Peak when I was there for a seminar. I just had to take a picture for posterity.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

Completion of the Act 250 application and a hearing date for the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain to add "on-mountain alpine ski trail lighting" were advertised in today's Caledonian Record. A public hearing is set for  Tuesday, Nov. 17 at the Burke Town Hall in West Burke, preceded by a site visit scheduled to begin at the Darling Rec. Park in East Burke at 6 pm.


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## wtcobb (Nov 2, 2015)

Night skiing at Burke would be pretty cool - I've been waiting for an update to BW's locals night ski pass - having Burke as another option would be great.


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## Tin (Nov 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Seriously?! Their expressions are funny!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Screw the expressions, someone doesn't know how to aim a camera.


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> Night skiing at Burke would be pretty cool - I've been waiting for an update to BW's locals night ski pass - having Burke as another option would be great.



I believe it was just on the lower mountain for park rats


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

Night skiing on even the lower mountain would be cool if they had at least one or two regular trail options for folks instead of just the park.  

And it will further hurt the Lyndon Outing Club.  

Although I've got to say that I don't think there is a huge demand for nightskiing at Burke.  They are barely holding level with their skier and rider days as it is.


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## dlague (Nov 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Night skiing on even the lower mountain would be cool if they had at least one or two regular trail options for folks instead of just the park.
> 
> And it will further hurt the Lyndon Outing Club.
> 
> Although I've got to say that I don't think there is a huge demand for nightskiing at Burke.  They are barely holding level with their skier and rider days as it is.



Having the lodge will help with that!  Plus it is only in the hearing stages.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 2, 2015)

With modern LED lighting, you would think it would be pretty nice for night skiing almost everything off the Sherburne Express.

The new booster pump arrived this morning according to their FB page...


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

dlague said:


> Having the lodge will help with that!  Plus it is only in the hearing stages.



Having beds *should* help with skier days, at least it would normally with any other resort.  But with the management being as it is I don't think that success is guaranteed.


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## River19 (Nov 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Having beds *should* help with skier days, at least it would normally with any other resort.  But with the management being as it is I don't think that success is guaranteed.



I think there will be initial indicators of success, as people check out the new hotel and kick the tires on things etc.

I think the true measure of success will be over the next couple seasons really.  Do people actually come back?  Kinda like a restaurant, initially it is a hot ticket to get a seating but if it is "meh" in any way, 12 months later it is more telling of their status in life....

Time will tell.....


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2015)

IIRC, the real head scratcher about the night skiing is that there will be no trail with lighting from the hotel.  So the hotel guests will presumably have to take a shuttle to partake in night skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> I think there will be initial indicators of success, as people check out the new hotel and kick the tires on things etc.
> 
> I think the true measure of success will be over the next couple seasons really.  Do people actually come back?  Kinda like a restaurant, initially it is a hot ticket to get a seating but if it is "meh" in any way, 12 months later it is more telling of their status in life....
> 
> Time will tell.....



Agreed....to probably lesser of an extent because Q has burned so many bridges.  The average skier, if there is snow, will surely be interested in checking it out.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2015)

I think the bridges that have been burned are mostly with locals, BMA, and bicyclists.  Your average suburban family in the Boston area probably doesn't care at all.  The real test will be how much snow they can put down for Christmas week.  People aren't going to want to spend money at the hotel if there aren't a sufficient number of trails open.


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## River19 (Nov 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the bridges that have been burned are mostly with locals, BMA, and bicyclists.  Your average suburban family in the Boston area probably doesn't care at all.  The real test will be how much snow they can put down for Christmas week.  People aren't going to want to spend money at the hotel if there aren't a sufficient number of trails open.



agree 100%


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> agree 100%



I agree with that, but a fair number of those bikers are also skiers from outside the area (granted though these folks might not be interested in the Hotel as it is).  The snowmaking, or lack thereof, as well as the customer service this year will be huge factors in their success or failure.  Get some early cold weather or snow, get a decent management team in place and leave them alone, and I think they will do well.  Have problems with snowmaking and/or continue with the utter douchbaggery that we have seen and they will be flat at best.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the bridges that have been burned are mostly with locals, BMA, and bicyclists.  Your average suburban family in the Boston area probably doesn't care at all.  The real test will be how much snow they can put down for Christmas week.  People aren't going to want to spend money at the hotel if there aren't a sufficient number of trails open.



Bingo. I have a feeling the lighting plan will have to expand a bit to service the Hotel. Having a couple of night trails including the terrain park open for Christmas would be a pretty big draw if there are lean conditions elsewhere. Lighting a trail has got to be a lot cheaper than snowmaking as well. I would say it would even help offset the cost of snowmaking by increasing the hours of skiing on those trails when they are primarily covered in man-made snow.

The LOC is certainly struggling. Last year they did okay I think with the consistent cold. However, unless they are able to get some sort of snowmaking system there, it is going to be a real struggle for them to open in the winters. And I think the overlap in customers for night skiing would be pretty small.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 2, 2015)

And honestly, I don't think it is a terrible idea to put in a minor amount of night skiing. It could conceivably pay for itself in a year or two.

Here is the layerout in Google Earth. The drawing from the Act 250 site is incorrect in the bottom third of the terrain park as the rendering sends the trail and lighting into Masskier's Bear Path condos.
The yellow area is a polygon that I added where an expanded lighting system make sense to me. Most of this lighting entire lighting plan would be on trails that are mostly obscured from local viewpoints by trees and their location on the mountain, thereby reducing light pollution and potential complaints about the project.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> And honestly, I don't think it is a terrible idea to put in a minor amount of night skiing. It could conceivably pay for itself in a year or two.
> 
> Here is the layerout in Google Earth. The drawing from the Act 250 site is incorrect in the bottom third of the terrain park as the rendering sends the trail and lighting into Masskier's Bear Path condos.
> The yellow area is a polygon that I added where an expanded lighting system make sense to me. Most of this lighting entire lighting plan would be on trails that are mostly obscured from local viewpoints by trees and their location on the mountain, thereby reducing light pollution and potential complaints about the project.



If it were me, I'd have lights on pretty much the entire lower mountain.  That offers enough to keep folks entertained and would not require that much work in my mind.


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## Big Wave Dave (Nov 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> If it were me, I'd have lights on pretty much the entire lower mountain.  That offers enough to keep folks entertained and would not require that much work in my mind.



if you lit up the entire lower mountain half the NEK would complain you were killing their star gazing (the half that doesnt complain about the windmills). 

I would be tempted to agree


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2015)

I really hope that they plan on having a soft opening for the hotel.  As tempting as it is to rake in the money during Christmas, almost nothing goes 100% smoothly at launch.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> if you lit up the entire lower mountain half the NEK would complain you were killing their star gazing (the half that doesnt complain about the windmills).
> 
> I would be tempted to agree



True.


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## Big Wave Dave (Nov 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I really hope that they plan on having a soft opening for the hotel.  As tempting as it is to rake in the money during Christmas, almost nothing goes 100% smoothly at launch.



I know two families staying there the week before x-mas. Will report once I get the report! intent is to go over and visit and sample the pool, of course.

Anyone know what the hotel is going to offer for skier amenities?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2015)

I've heard conflicting information as to whether the pool will be open year-round.  Is this indeed the case?


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## Masskier (Nov 2, 2015)

The pool and hot tub are open year round.


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## Masskier (Nov 2, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I know two families staying there the week before x-mas. Will report once I get the report! intent is to go over and visit and sample the pool, of course.
> 
> Anyone know what the hotel is going to offer for skier amenities?



Pub, coffee shop, steak house, fitness, hot tub and pool, ski/rental shop, arcade, store, cafeteria.  In think that's  most of them


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2015)

Masskier said:


> The pool and hot tub are open year round.



That's very nice.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> If it were me, I'd have lights on pretty much the entire lower mountain.  That offers enough to keep folks entertained and would not require that much work in my mind.



Light up Warrens and have some night racing leagues off the Poma, already have the power run for the fanguns...


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## crank (Nov 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I really hope that they plan on having a soft opening for the hotel.  As tempting as it is to rake in the money during Christmas, almost nothing goes 100% smoothly at launch.



I stayed at both the Tram Haus and the new Hotel jay on some great pre christmas deals the year each of them opened and both had issues yet were well worth the $ because the skiing was pretty good for that time of year both times and the rates they offered were low enough to offset any inconveniences.  I am sure it always takes some time to train staff and get everything working properly.


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## Big Wave Dave (Nov 3, 2015)

Masskier said:


> Pub, coffee shop, steak house, fitness, hot tub and pool, ski/rental shop, arcade, store, cafeteria.  In think that's  most of them



I cant imagine they are going to open the fitness center/hot tub and pool to non-hotel guests?


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## crank (Nov 3, 2015)

crank said:


> I stayed at both the Tram Haus and the new Hotel jay on some great pre christmas deals the year each of them opened and both had issues yet were well worth the $ because the skiing was pretty good for that time of year both times and the rates they offered were low enough to offset any inconveniences.  I am sure it always takes some time to train staff and get everything working properly.



Correction:  I remembered that we stayed at the Tram Haus later in the season on some great deal they were offering... it was either late Feb. or early March.  The issues were fairly minor but inconvenient.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I cant imagine they are going to open the fitness center/hot tub and pool to non-hotel guests?



I think that was something that was kicked around briefly but the answer was "no".  Not even for condo owners.


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that was something that was kicked around briefly but the answer was "no".  Not even for condo owners.



At Jay you can use the hottub outside the water park without paying anything.


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## yeggous (Nov 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> At Jay you can use the hottub outside the water park without paying anything.



Is this true? You have to walk passed the water park desk to get there. I guess I just never asked.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Is this true? You have to walk passed the water park desk to get there. I guess I just never asked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


I have - you don't get ticketed until you go down the stairs to the water park. You can hang at the bar with out buying entry and the hot tub is right out the door from the bar. I have hung there while the kids did the water park and the wife and I used the hot tub.


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## dlague (Nov 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> I have - you don't get ticketed until you go down the stairs to the water park. You can hang at the bar with out buying entry and the hot tub is right out the door from the bar. I have hung there while the kids did the water park and the wife and I used the hot tub.



That is true!


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2015)

The secret is out!!!!


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## steamboat1 (Nov 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The secret is out!!!!



I think you guys just blew it for yourselves.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I think you guys just blew it for yourselves.











And don't bring your pet with you to the QHotel or else you will be "evicted".


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## steamboat1 (Nov 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And don't bring your pet with you to the QHotel or else you will be "evicted".



The Killington Grand has the same policy, no pets. Not only will you be immediately evicted without refund you will also be charged an additional $250 cleaning fee.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 3, 2015)

:lol: Bahahaha :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> The Killington Grand has the same policy, no pets. Not only will you be immediately evicted without refund you will also be charged an additional $250 cleaning fee.



OK, but "evicted?"  How about, "asked to leave the premises?"


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> OK, but "evicted?"  How about, "asked to leave the premises?"



There may be "legal reason" for the terminology.  

I agree that one sounds harsher than the other, but If you break the rules, you deserve to be evicted.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> There may be "legal reason" for the terminology.
> 
> I agree that one sounds harsher than the other, but If you break the rules, you deserve to be evicted.



Hotel guests have a mere license to occupy the premises that can be terminated at any time. They are not evicted per se. There's no legal reason to say that. I just was saying that there is a more diplomatic way to tell prospective guests what will happen if they break the rules. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2015)

I'm surprised that the Caledonian Record has yet to have an article about Q Burke applying for night skiing.  If I were Q Burke, I'd be very happy if no article was written.


----------



## yeggous (Nov 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm surprised that the Caledonian Record has yet to have an article about Q Burke applying for night skiing.  If I were Q Burke, I'd be very happy if no article was written.



Yes, you don't want a greeting like a couple of local dingbats gave to Crotched. Oh the light pollution! Despair!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2015)

Uh oh.

http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/03/q-burke-contractor-threatens-to-walk-off-job-blames-state/


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Uh oh.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/03/q-burke-contractor-threatens-to-walk-off-job-blames-state/



What are you talking about?  I'm sure that the contractor just needed a little break from all the hard work.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

This seemed fairly obvious to a lot of us:



> At the very least, the opening of the hotel, conference center and sports center will be postponed, according to Bill Stenger, CEO of Jay Peak Resort and developer of Q Burke. The resort expansion was set for a Dec. 11 opening until “the delays by DFR put this date at risk,” Stenger said.



And who is really to blame?



> In communications obtained by VTDigger through a public records request, Donegan says that the delayed payments to PeakCM are the result of the developers “unresponsiveness” to requests for information from DFR. Donegan wants “a clear understanding of the monies that have moved through Q Burke account and what the balance is.” She goes on to say, “Let me explain.” The next portion of the email is redacted.



Uh oh.....



> Donegan and DFR staff raise additional questions in 429 pages of communications about the developers’ use of funds for the project and communications with immigrant investors.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2015)

They are still taking reservations for December 11th.  What gives?


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2015)

Another interesting piece:



> Davis says he has twice threatened a work stoppage at Q Burke in the past three months, and this time he might have to pull the plug if he can’t get reassurances from the state soon. In recent weeks, he has paid subcontractors out of his own pocket “because they weren’t going to make their payroll.”



And it sounds like things are going to get more expensive....



> Late payments to subcontractors have also hurt the project’s budget, Davis says, because he has no choice but to impose a 12 percent late fee on Stenger and Quiros in order to cover the cost of the delays. Late fees will drive up the cost of the project by $100,000, Davis says.



And yes, work was stopped at the Hotel:



> The developers recommenced construction of the hotel and conference center, which had been halted in 2014. Once the developers met certain conditions in July, they also had permission to solicit more investors.
> 
> The developers need to attract, or “subscribe,” 196 investors to fully fund Q Burke. As of August, Q Burke had secured investments from 45 immigrants, or about $25 million, and the developers extended the subscription deadline from July 13 to Dec. 31 to attract more investors, documents show.



And they've only raised $25 million so far.  



> By October, 38 new immigrants seeking green cards had invested about $20 million in Q Burke.
> 
> The developers must hold the new money in a separate escrow account, and the funds can only be released after a third-party administrator signs off on construction expenditures. Ultimate authority for payment approvals rests with Donegan at DFR.
> 
> As of Sept. 9, the Q Burke brokerage account had insufficient funds to cover the July requisition payment for construction work to PeakCM, according to documents from DFR. It’s not clear how many new investors had subscribed at that juncture.



NOT good at all:



> At the heart of the conflict is Donegan’s “serious concern” about the way the developers have represented the facts of the Q Burke project, “especially since DFR and ACCD received repeated assurances from you and the Principals that the project was abiding by all conditions and restrictions.”
> 
> “By the end of the week, I ask you to send me a full written explanation as to the raising and disbursement of the ______ capital,” Donegan writes. “In addition to providing the answer concerning the investor funds prior to July 15, 2015, the deliverables listed above must also be produced before I will consider any expense payments.”



Stenger feels that the restrictions on how he can spend money, which do not include costs to promote the opening of the Hotel and to hire staff, are too restrictive.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

According to the Caledonian Record, they are still on track for a December 11 opening.  


.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 4, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> They put out a call for local artists, craftsmen, etc early this past summer to submit their work for the new hotel. I submitted my photography for consideration but I have not heard a thing. Maybe they are waiting until the paint is dry before deciding what to hang on the wall?


 
From the VT Digger Article:



> The delays have disrupted the work flow and orders for materials, fixtures and furnishings have been put on hold, Stenger says.



Well I guess that potentially explains lack of interest in my photos for the hotel. Right now they are just trying to get the wall painted.


----------



## River19 (Nov 4, 2015)

They better start ordering up the "Pardon Our Appearance" signs soon for the first few weeks of guests if they still open the 11th......

Or at least order one and have Jr take pictures of it with his iPhone and print out duplicates.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> They better start ordering up the "Pardon Our Appearance" signs soon for the first few weeks of guests if they still open the 11th......
> 
> Or at least order one and have Jr take pictures of it with his iPhone and print out duplicates.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

September real estate market report is out.  Four condos sold in all of Caledonia county through the first nine months of the year.  This is down 55% from the previous year-to-date.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Nov 4, 2015)

Trailboss- i read that a bit different. It said by August they had $25mm, and then by October they had 38 new investors. I inferred the "new" to update that August figure.  In know Stenger was on a tear over in Vietnam or some such.

I also think the $190mm figure for Burke included the pie-in-the-sky aquatics and tennis center, The hotel alone is far less than that, so perhaps its fully funded (if my assumption above is correct).

Either way...my question now is... can Kingdom Trails run a ski area


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss- i read that a bit different. It said by August they had $25mm, and then by October they had 38 new investors. I inferred the "new" to update that August figure.  In know Stenger was on a tear over in Vietnam or some such.


That's how I read it as well, although it was not clear.

Even if this is the case, that's about $44 million, which I believe is well short of the actual construction costs.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 4, 2015)

Waiting to hear from Masskier to get his spin


----------



## River19 (Nov 4, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss- i read that a bit different. It said by August they had $25mm, and then by October they had 38 new investors. I inferred the "new" to update that August figure.  In know Stenger was on a tear over in Vietnam or some such.
> 
> I also think the $190mm figure for Burke included the pie-in-the-sky aquatics and tennis center, The hotel alone is far less than that, so perhaps its fully funded (if my assumption above is correct).
> 
> Either way...my question now is... can Kingdom Trails run a ski area



Lol.  Start printing the "Ski KT" stickers.......

If memory serves me, I think the hotel alone was something like $55M give or take a few million among ponzi participants.....I mean friends....


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

This article puts the hotel cost at $55 million.

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/891-q-burke-hotel-shaping-up


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Waiting to hear from Masskier to get his spin



I'll save you the wait:

"I hear that the pool will be great!"


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss- i read that a bit different. It said by August they had $25mm, and then by October they had 38 new investors. I inferred the "new" to update that August figure.  In know Stenger was on a tear over in Vietnam or some such.
> 
> I also think the $190mm figure for Burke included the pie-in-the-sky aquatics and tennis center, The hotel alone is far less than that, so perhaps its fully funded (if my assumption above is correct).
> 
> Either way...my question now is... can Kingdom Trails run a ski area



Yeah, honestly everytime we get a report from VTD the numbers change.  I think it is fair to say that they have raised a lot of money and want to raise more   I also think that the $192 mill figure is build-out as well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2015)

Well, the Hotel is...ALMOST...done.  Get 'er done, get a new management team to make it work, and leave it alone.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2015)

So the contractor is complaining about the state taking a long time to authorize the release of funds.  Perhaps the contractor should be complaining about Stenger and Quiros, since the state only stepped in because of concerns about how the funds were being used.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So the contractor is complaining about the state taking a long time to authorize the release of funds.  Perhaps the contractor should be complaining about Stenger and Quiros, since the state only stepped in because of concerns about how the funds were being used.



Yeah, but that wouldn't be any fun now, would it?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Nov 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So the contractor is complaining about the state taking a long time to authorize the release of funds.  Perhaps the contractor should be complaining about Stenger and Quiros, since the state only stepped in because of concerns about how the funds were being used.



what is interesting is the Cal Record omits any of Davis equivalence on who to blame and puts it right on the state. 

If i was Stenger, and I had $20mm of fresh capital in the bank (i.e. funds that clearly have a point of origin and point of investment) and the state was not letting me pay bills, regardless of where prior funds had gone, I would be keen to blame the state as well. Espeically if a 3rd party administrator agreed by the state had said OK.



Also- if they could sign up new investors between when the issues/headlines first started to hit, and the end of October....then my hunch is they could finalize the funding too.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 5, 2015)

New article in the Caledonian Record.  

Stegner believes that the hotel will open on time.  The contractor does not believe it will.  The west wing will open before the east wing.


----------



## River19 (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm sure the definition of "Open" and the scope of the "Open" mean different things to different people.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 5, 2015)

More fun at Burke.  "It's the state's fault" is being used yet again.

http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/05/stenger-says-refund-for-disqualified-investor-is-on-the-way/


----------



## River19 (Nov 5, 2015)

So Stenger and Q Sr have no other funds to access other than the ones the state tied up?

This thing is such a funky deal......


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> More fun at Burke.  "It's the state's fault" is being used yet again.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/05/stenger-says-refund-for-disqualified-investor-is-on-the-way/



The headline with this one was that an investor put in $550k, was turned down by the Feds, and Stenger and Company could not refund the money when needed and did not do so for months:



> Six days later, Stenger told Fullam that there is “a funding issue” with the refund that is associated with the larger problems affecting the Q Burke construction project.



Yikes.  I am getting sick.  Hope that this is short-lived.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 5, 2015)

Anyone else coincidentally just get an Email from Burke urging you to book your room now for the December 11th Grand Opening? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Anyone else coincidentally just get an Email from Burke urging you to book your room now for the December 11th Grand Opening?



Yep I had gotten it. They've been coming somewhat regularly.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Anyone else coincidentally just get an Email from Burke urging you to book your room now for the December 11th Grand Opening?


They need some deposits so they can refund that guy his $500,000 plus the $50,000 admin fee.  :???:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 6, 2015)

missed a zero


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## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2015)

Fixed it!


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## Smellytele (Nov 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Anyone else coincidentally just get an Email from Burke urging you to book your room now for the December 11th Grand Opening?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yup


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yikes.*  I am getting sick.*  Hope that this is short-lived.




I fear the worst is yet to come.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I fear the worst is yet to come.



Just for additional debate, say you are right about this whole thing and it completely blows up.

What happens to all of the properties?


----------



## SnowDogWax (Nov 6, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Just for additional debate, say you are right about this whole thing and it completely blows up.
> 
> What happens to all of the properties?



Nothing


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Nov 6, 2015)

I am very interested in the third party audit firm......imagine what its like being asked to make sure books and records are all set while under the gaze of an SEC investigation.

for those who think this reeks of ponzi... I am not so sure. if something stinks here its going to be the array of companies created and Ary Sr. grabbing a buck everywhere he can where funds pass through the chain. Too much development for it to be ponzi, the funds clearly havent dissapeared!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Just for additional debate, say you are right about this whole thing and it completely blows up.
> 
> What happens to all of the properties?



The Hotel is owned by the investors. Got to think about what would happen.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> I am very interested in the third party audit firm......imagine what its like being asked to make sure books and records are all set while under the gaze of an SEC investigation.
> 
> for those who think this reeks of ponzi... I am not so sure. if something stinks here its going to be the array of companies created and Ary Sr. grabbing a buck everywhere he can where funds pass through the chain. Too much development for it to be ponzi, the funds clearly havent dissapeared!



Yeah I agree. Hope it's all fine though. We don't need another failed regime. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The Hotel is owned by the investors. Got to think about what would happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



For now.  The Tram Haus used to be owned by the investors too.  Not anymore.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> For now.  The Tram Haus used to be owned by the investors too.  Not anymore.
> 
> 
> .



My legal mind is taking a break.  It really depends on the corporate structure of things and who owns what, etc.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2015)

According to the Caledonian Record about $3.1 million has been paid leaving $900,000 unpaid.   $387,000 is overdue.  The contractor is still saying he "might" walk off the job.  

The dispute is about whether furniture, fixtures and equipment are part of what is to be covered and paid.


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## River19 (Nov 7, 2015)

Yeah we joke about a ponzi, but it isn't really the deal here.  Just a bunch of shell company nightmares to track things through.  Accounting nightmare surrounded with the stink of the eb5 program.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2015)

If the hotel opening is delayed, I wonder if the ambitious snowmaking start date will be delayed.  But of course Mother Nature may have the last word anyway...


----------



## bigbog (Nov 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They are still taking reservations for December 11th.  What gives?



They want your $$$.......;-)


----------



## Masskier (Nov 7, 2015)

Either way they have to get the training hill open for BMA.  Mother nature is not cooperating though, as the extended forecast still has above average temps.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 7, 2015)

From today's Cal Record

Attorney William Alexander Fead, Esq, wrote to Governor Peter Shumlin and Lt. Gov. Phil Scott, stating that the two state agencies tasked with oversight of releasing payments for the Q Burke project have not been carrying out that duty in a timely manner, for both construction and design invoices.
The Agency of Commerce and Community Development and the Department of Financial Regulation, Fead wrote, "...continue to jeopardize Vermont companies and Vermont workers, and, indeed, the viability of the State as an EB-5 Regional Center."
"This risk is the result of their dilatory review process, deviation from norms of the construction industry, and a proposed far-fetched interpretation of its agreement with Q Burke establishing the oversight procedure that would exclude 'equipment' from payment," wrote Fead.

Of the refusal to reimburse the equipment charges, the letter states, "The hotel and conference center cannot open or function without the 'equipment.' "


Well, It's ironic that the state oversight is suppose help protect the investors.  But in this instance by delaying payments, dragging their feet and not being familiar with standard construction procedures, they are actually putting the investors at much greater risk by potentially causing a shut down of this project.   At this point it is in everybody's best interest to get the project completed so they can open and start producing a cash flow


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If the hotel opening is delayed, I wonder if the ambitious snowmaking start date will be delayed.  But of course Mother Nature may have the last word anyway...



Different problem with snowmaking: not enough labor to do the job since nearly every experienced employee has left. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Nov 7, 2015)

Masskier said:


> From today's Cal Record
> 
> Attorney William Alexander Fead, Esq, wrote to Governor Peter Shumlin and Lt. Gov. Phil Scott, stating that the two state agencies tasked with oversight of releasing payments for the Q Burke project have not been carrying out that duty in a timely manner, for both construction and design invoices.
> The Agency of Commerce and Community Development and the Department of Financial Regulation, Fead wrote, "...continue to jeopardize Vermont companies and Vermont workers, and, indeed, the viability of the State as an EB-5 Regional Center."
> ...



True, but you aren't considering that apparently something has happened to trigger the State's attention and skepticism. Yeah it sucks, but Q brought it on himself. 



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but you aren't considering that apparently something has happened to trigger the State's attention and skepticism. Yeah it sucks, but Q brought it on himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Bingo.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Different problem with snowmaking: not enough labor to do the job since nearly every experienced employee has left.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



What about the training hill. I thought that all the new upgrades they spent all the money and time, were going to be high tech automated?


----------



## halfpintvt (Nov 8, 2015)

News 7 at Lyndon State College posted an update to their story about a possible construction halt at Burke Mountain:

News7 Reporter Tyler Cadorette has an update on the Q Burke hotel project.



Tyler Cadorette VCCJ11 hrs · Edited · 
Q  BURKE HOTEL UPDATE: PeakCM President Jerry Davis says construction will  continue as normal for the time being, but he is suspending all  projects related to furniture, fixtures, and equipment (FF&E). That change "will impact the hotel's opening," according to Davis. 
  As of right now, the Dept. of Financial Regulation is not authorizing  equipment expenses because of issues with the project contract. Davis  says it appears that the State is willing to open the discussion about  equipment line items at some point next week. He is still owed $900,000.


I'm not sure how they can open the hotel without "furniture, fixtures and equipment".


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## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2015)

And yet they are still taking reservations for December 11.  Right hand, you should meet left hand.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> News 7 at Lyndon State College posted an update to their story about a possible construction halt at Burke Mountain:
> 
> News7 Reporter Tyler Cadorette has an update on the Q Burke hotel project.
> 
> ...



As I said the Q experience is tough love...so sleeping on the floor will have to do. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Nov 9, 2015)

Between the email blasts and FB postings they are pushing hard to book up those early weeks.....almost makes me think their strategy to put pressure on the state oversight group and the contractor will be "look we have X hundred people booked for the first weekend and you are putting VT tourism etc. in jeopardy due to red tape etc."..........

When I see the daily emails/FB postings I think " Leverage and cash-flow".....


----------



## Tin (Nov 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> And yet they are still taking reservations for December 11.  Right hand, you should meet left hand.



Not only that, they seem quite full for Christmas week. Only the $400-$800 rooms are available. Whats up with $15 resort fee?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 9, 2015)

Just another way to nickle and dime you

I'll be down in Florida visiting my folks over Thanksgiving.  Wife and I are leaving the boy for one night with his grandparents and where we are staying charges a resort fee as well. Please Note –  Daily resort fee of USD 28 added to rate includes in-room Internet, fitness classes, beach pampering and much more!


----------



## Tin (Nov 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Just another way to nickle and dime you
> 
> I'll be down in Florida visiting my folks over Thanksgiving.  Wife and I are leaving the boy for one night with his grandparents and where we are staying charges a resort fee as well. Please Note –  Daily resort fee of USD 28 added to rate includes in-room Internet, fitness classes, beach pampering and much more!



Enjoy that night! I always read after our last trip to Acadia. We stayed at a pet friendly lodge that was super cheap but then added another $25 per night for the dog and $15 for pet fees. Most expense dog treat I've ever bought.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 9, 2015)

They should change the name of the "Resort fee" to the, "Pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" fee.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2015)

Better hurry up and book your room! Got another Email today...big deadline!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Nov 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Better hurry up and book your room! Got another Email today...big deadline!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Such negativity all the time about Burke. I get blasted about negativity towards Magic but it's Ok for you to go on for 494 pages now about Burke.


Just thought I'd point out the hypocricy of the moderation on this site.

By the way Magic will never make it under current management/ownership.


----------



## Tin (Nov 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> By the way Magic will never make it under current management/ownership.



Neither will Burke. Magic is at least an underdog worth rooting for.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Tin said:


> Neither will Burke. Magic is at least an underdog worth rooting for.



I'm sure both areas with the proper management/ownership could be successful. That's not the point.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 9, 2015)

It's one thing to be critical of an area, it's another thing to be critical of not only the area, but also the people who ski there and repeatedly troll them.  The latter is what's a problem with you regarding Magic.

Additionally, trailboss grew up on Burke Mountain, has numerous friends and family still there; he's got a major personal investment in Burke that vastly exceeds what you even have at Killington. It's his hometown like Brooklyn is for you. Comparitively,  you barely have skied Magic and have shown a complete lack of understanding about their operations from season length to real estate development.

So, no you're wrong.  There's no hypocrisy here at all. One person (in this case a moderator) is well within forum rules.  You on the other hand repeatedly break forum guidelines on trolling and personal attacks.

I'd suggest you worry about yourself.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh there's my buddy. How'd I know he'd pop in?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Such negativity all the time about Burke. I get blasted about negativity towards Magic but it's Ok for you to go on for 494 pages now about Burke.
> 
> 
> Just thought I'd point out the hypocricy of the moderation on this site.
> ...



What can I say?  My trolling skills are not nearly as good as yours.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2015)

Back on point: seriously hope that the Hotel debacle does work itself out.  Hope that they get a good manager for the Hotel and have a decent year.  Also hope that they get some cold weather for the new fanguns.  Really hope that the ownership can convince a certain son to move onto other challenges in his life and that they give the nod to an experienced management team that can now make the mountain exceed its potential.


----------



## River19 (Nov 10, 2015)

BYOB......Bring Your Own Bed......


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> BYOB......Bring Your Own Bed......



Military cots on the right; latrines on the left.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks to TOTB for sending me this wonderful promo video extolling the beauty of BURKE and BURKE MOUNTAIN.  No mention of Q anywhere......


----------



## dlague (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks for sharing!  That was well done.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Nov 11, 2015)

Correct me if I am wrong, but did the promo video even acknowledge Q Burke Mountain Resort or at least even the resort? Every other business got mentioned. Bad move, nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 11, 2015)

According to the video Burke is famous for its apres.  Who knew!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 11, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but did the promo video even acknowledge Q Burke Mountain Resort or at least even the resort? Every other business got mentioned. Bad move, nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.



It did mention Burke Mountain just not the Q part. It said "Burke is all about Burke Mountain"


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 11, 2015)

Real nice video.Famous for its apres?OK


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> It did mention Burke Mountain just not the Q part. It said "Burke is all about Burke Mountain"



They mention and feature the mountain, just not Q. He obviously did not really help them. No doubt he is working on his own video right now with techno music 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## the original trailboss (Nov 11, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but did the promo video even acknowledge Q Burke Mountain Resort or at least even the resort? Every other business got mentioned. Bad move, nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.



I think you will find that it is Ary that has chosen (from the beginning) to bite the hand that feeds him (the community, Kingdom Trails, etc, etc) in so many ways !


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 11, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I think you will find that it is Ary that has chosen (from the beginning) to bite the hand that feeds him (the community, Kingdom Trails, etc, etc) in so many ways !



Was just going to say that. Both had a decent symbiotic relationship that could have been really rewarding the last couple years.  Instead we see Q videos of empty restaurants, empty Apres Ski parties, contests where about half of the competitors are staff (what is left of the staff), and you see pages of want ads for the mountain.  It doesn't have to be this way.


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## River19 (Nov 12, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I think you will find that it is Ary that has chosen (from the beginning) to bite the hand that feeds him (the community, Kingdom Trails, etc, etc) in so many ways !



I would also argue, that the the hand that feeds the businesses of Burke in a 12month period start with KT leading the way.  The town is much much busier during the MTB months than the skiing months ever have been. Ever.  In fact, during the heart of winter to me, it always feels like the whole place is asleep comparatively speaking.

That being said, the ski mountain has the potential to be much better and is heading that way however Q has provided his own headwinds so to speak.


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## oldtimer (Nov 12, 2015)

Less than one month from the hotel's scheduled opening date.  Any chance?   Should we have a pool to guess which weekend will be the hotel's first in operation?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 12, 2015)

They are still taking reservations for December 11 and onward.  If they don't open on time, that's a sure fire way to piss people off unnecessarily.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 12, 2015)

I'd assume that they'll still open on time, on the 11th, but everything will still be "a work in progress" and they will try to spin it as positive as possible. As they should.


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## mbedle (Nov 12, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I think you will find that it is Ary that has chosen (from the beginning) to bite the hand that feeds him (the community, Kingdom Trails, etc, etc) in so many ways !



I guess I was thinking that with this hotel and conference center going in, the owners of Q Burke think a little different about how dependent they are on the Burke community. I would even step out on a limb to say that they are doing this work at Burke to remove any significant dependency on their survival as a business, on the local community. I wouldn't say that residences in the Burke community are going to be renting $300/night hotel rooms at the resort. I also doubt that they will be holding their annual christmas parties at the resort.  May sound cold hearted, but Q Burke's eyesights are set on attracting out of town clientele to a destination resort. While, albeit done very badly, maintaining a good relationship with the surrounding businesses and locals. I also found it odd that they produced a tourism video for the Burke area and failed to mention one of the biggest draws to the area by its name. Its even worst when you think that Q Burke will most likely be the largest tax payer in the community.  I am guessing that was done on purpose, but seems counter-intuitive.


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## River19 (Nov 12, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I guess I was thinking that with this hotel and conference center going in, the owners of Q Burke think a little different about how dependent they are on the Burke community. I would even step out on a limb to say that they are doing this work at Burke to remove any significant dependency on their survival as a business, on the local community. I wouldn't say that residences in the Burke community are going to be renting $300/night hotel rooms at the resort. I also doubt that they will be holding their annual christmas parties at the resort.  May sound cold hearted, but Q Burke's eyesights are set on attracting out of town clientele to a destination resort. While, albeit done very badly, maintaining a good relationship with the surrounding businesses and locals. I also found it odd that they produced a tourism video for the Burke area and failed to mention one of the biggest draws to the area by its name. Its even worst when you think that Q Burke will most likely be the largest tax payer in the community.  I am guessing that was done on purpose, but seems counter-intuitive.




I would take that as an indication of how the community feels towards the current ownership group.  Screwing the area schools etc.tends to rub the movers and shakers of a community the wrong way.

Here's the thing.....from May through October (ie 50% of the year) the mountain is a distant second in draws to the area.  Without KT, the bike park would probably not get nearly the ridership it does even now.  In the summer, no one goes up the mountain to spend their beer money up there (see the Tiki bar et al).  So if they are going to make it work for the summer, it will largely be from wedding revenue and the odd corporation that might have an event there.  Given how openly hostile VT can be to larger corporations, I'm trying to figure out what companies of size would book a convention center at Burke.  Why bypass the hundreds of other worthy options elsewhere closer to said corporation?

There is still a large rift between the community and Q.....that video is subtle evidence of that.

The mountain will work potentially, but not like it could have with better relations with the locals.

As for taxes, hasn't Q already been trying to duck out of some of those as well?


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## mbedle (Nov 12, 2015)

River19 said:


> I would take that as an indication of how the community feels towards the current ownership group.  Screwing the area schools etc.tends to rub the movers and shakers of a community the wrong way.
> 
> Here's the thing.....from May through October (ie 50% of the year) the mountain is a distant second in draws to the area.  Without KT, the bike park would probably not get nearly the ridership it does even now.  In the summer, no one goes up the mountain to spend their beer money up there (see the Tiki bar et al).  So if they are going to make it work for the summer, it will largely be from wedding revenue and the odd corporation that might have an event there.  Given how openly hostile VT can be to larger corporations, I'm trying to figure out what companies of size would book a convention center at Burke.  Why bypass the hundreds of other worthy options elsewhere closer to said corporation?
> 
> ...




Sorry - forgot to post a "Tigger Warning" first....

The tax issue was a disagreement on what taxes should be paid on an unfinished hotel. Moving forward, after the hotel is complete, that should no longer be an issue.

And yes, I would most definitely take the video as a snub to the resort. Actually kind of surprises the Q Burke isn't going after him for using the video of the resort in the commercial. Maybe because it is a .org, or that the shots were taking up in Darling state park,  they can get away with it. One way to look at this is the resort has the potential to offer far more to the local community than the community has to offer the resort. Its not like Kingdom Trails pays any great tax to the county/ or Burke community and they certainly are not bringing in a ton of overnight guess that are staying local. I'm guessing that they fill the few restaurants in town on the weekends, but that isn't really benefiting the locals on whole. The town needs room taxes, sales taxes and real estate taxes to survive and grow. KT provides very little of that no matter how many people or there riding their bikes. 

At this point in the game, one party has to give and I just think that it should be the community. I also think it is important for everyone to put their indifferences aside (whether imagined or real) and support the resort. If it does fail, that is not only going to hurt the owners (maybe), but the community (loss of tax revenue), local businesses (loss of winter income) and skiers. But, if they like, they can just keep pissing on the fire and hope that it doesn't go out eventually. I would think making some mugs with the name of the resort on them and paying a fee to use their training facilities would be worth having the resort still viable.  I guess Burke academy students could train somewhere else and the local artisan can continue to sell his Burke Mountain mugs at the local store to the bike riders that want a Kingdom Trails mug.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 12, 2015)

The community is not the culprit here ....


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2015)

Never said the community was a fault. Just saying that life is not always fair and you sometimes have to do things that are distasteful for the better good of all.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2015)

That olive branch has to come from the Qs.  They are the ones that created the rift.


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## River19 (Nov 13, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Its not like Kingdom Trails pays any great tax to the county/ or Burke community and they certainly are not bringing in a ton of overnight guess that are staying local. I'm guessing that they fill the few restaurants in town on the weekends, but that isn't really benefiting the locals on whole. The town needs room taxes, sales taxes and real estate taxes to survive and grow. KT provides very little of that no matter how many people or there riding their bikes.



I can only partially agree here; KT brings in a boatload of overnight guests, any claim otherwise is misinformed.  While a good portion utilize the campgrounds, most inns, rental homes, rental condos etc. have solid occupancy rates.  They drop cash in all the local E. Burke shops, restaurants, the Tiki bar, the food truck, the ice cream stand, E. Burke Market, etc.  Add in all the busniess they drop in Lyndonville at the Pizza Man, ML Diner, Bagel Depot, Whites, Lyndonville HOP, Village Sport Shop, The Redemp, Cumbies, Lynn Burke, EveryBuddy's, etc. and that summer traffic drives a significant amount of business in the area, a heck of a lot more than the mountain alone ever did even in winter.

I'm close friends with the owners of a few of the businesses I've mentioned above and they will readily tell you summer is by far the busiest time and they owe the bulk of it to KT.

However, this isn't a KT vs. Q argument I'm making here necessarily, I think the ideal world is the heavy business from KT driving the summer economy supplemented with the bike park on the mountain and then the mountain providing a robust level of winter traffic through many of the same businesses.  I think the community at large, and Q would have benefited even more, and more quickly, had they done a better job of working with the great local community instead of driving a large wedge in the relationship.


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## ironhippy (Nov 13, 2015)

I am more involved in skiing than mountain biking, but I have heard about Kingdom Trails from numerous people in relation to mountain biking, but I have never once heard someone talk about the Burke Mountain ski area.

On the east coast, there is nothing else around like Kingdom Trails, however I would have to drive by a half dozen major ski areas in order to get to QBurke.


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## oldtimer (Nov 13, 2015)

Mbedle-   I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here.  The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.

That said, you are totally missing the human side of this.  Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends.  My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK.  BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain?  Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management.  Bad management hurts real people.  It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance.  They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world.  The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space?  Human cost:  every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance.  They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales.  Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA,  the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train-  about zero.  The benefit to the kids if they have the space-  huge.  So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can?  to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY-  this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with.   Staffing-  do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.

This is not simply people resisting change.  This is a community rising up and saying that they do not like being pissed on.  There are times in life when a self respecting person does not act financially pragmatically because they cannot stand the stench.  Yes, any improvement to the local economy is welcome-  but not if the human cost is too high.

We all know that the mountain has never been financially successful and we will miss it if it is shuttered- but groveling to an a-hole is not in the character of those of us who chose to live in the NEK.


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## dlague (Nov 13, 2015)

ironhippy said:


> I am more involved in skiing than mountain biking, but I have heard about Kingdom Trails from numerous people in relation to mountain biking, but I have never once heard someone talk about the Burke Mountain ski area.
> 
> On the east coast, there is nothing else around like Kingdom Trails, however I would have to drive by a half dozen major ski areas in order to get to QBurke.



To you point those coming from the south would drive by Highlands, Killington and other lift served areas.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Nov 13, 2015)

dlague said:


> To you point those coming from the south would drive by Highlands, Killington and other lift served areas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Exactly, it is the core KT system that brings people and the Lift Served stuff is an added sweetener, not the main attraction for folks from away.  Now that more ski hills (Berkshire East etc.) are doing down hill lift served closer to southern New England residents, the attractiveness of KT's trail system and the town (tiki bar etc.) is what brings people in.


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## farlep99 (Nov 13, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Mbedle-   I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here.  The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.
> 
> That said, you are totally missing the human side of this.  Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends.  My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK.  BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain?  Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management.  Bad management hurts real people.  It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance.  They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world.  The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space?  Human cost:  every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance.  They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales.  Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA,  the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train-  about zero.  The benefit to the kids if they have the space-  huge.  So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can?  to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY-  this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with.   Staffing-  do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.
> 
> ...



Well put.  Best post i've read about the community/burke management in this whole thread


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2015)

Oldtimer - well put in your response. Its not that personally I don't understand the human aspect of what has occurred at Burke, I was more just approaching it from a cold hearted capitalistic side. I'm not a cold hearted bastard, just offering an alternative view. I don't believe that what the owners have done was all in the best interest of maintaining relationships with surrounding businesses and the community members. But I also believe that, in their eyes, as a owner of a struggling ski resort, they made those decisions in an effort to grow Q Burke Mountain Resort and get it out of the red and into the black. Thereby, continuing to provide a local ski resort, that the community has grown to love. Sometimes as a business owner you have to make some really hard decisions that you know are going to hurt some people. Typically, that includes laying people off, decreasing benefits and cleaning house. Those types of actions are not unique to Q  Burke. I run a very small business with 15 employees and during bad years, I've had to lay people off, let people go, cut salaries and decrease 401K benefits to employee plans. Once thing recovered, we brought one guy back, and started increasing salaries and contributions to 401K plans. I'm not going to try and list out everything that the owners have done that drove a spike between them and the community. From a business perspective, some appear to be outright wrong - cutting ties with KT is a big one. Other appear to be typical moves a company takes to help recover from financial downfall - asking local schools to pay to use the training facilities, cutting salaries and staff. As far as SJA not agreeing to pay, it is a little hard for me to swallow given the amount of money it costs to attend that school. But I can see your point that if BMA is there, it shouldn't really costs that much additional. But in that case, that is not really fair to BMA, if they are covering the whole rental bill.  Others that have been discussed in this form are nonsense and are more related to personal feelings being hurt or the over-reaching notion that skiers at this resort should have some huge say in how things are run and named.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2015)

All of that would make sense IF the talent they brought in was more capable than that which they let go.

Ary has been a complete disaster as a manager.  If Q senior was making actual business based decisions, he'd fire his son.


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## oldtimer (Nov 13, 2015)

Mbedle--- yes.  I agree with 90% of what you say.

I too run a business that was small and struggled for years with all of the same issues and hard choices.  Today we are larger and have a bigger margin for error in bad years, but we still have layoffs and still make choices that are painful.  BUT we NEVER lie.  And given the thoughtful nature of your responses, I expect that is true with you.  

This cannot be said about the current management.  Some of the lies have been forgivable in terms of trying to keep business matters in house.  Some are blatant & w.o purpose other than self aggrandizement etc.  Some of what Q-jr says does does is way outside of the hard business decision realm.  And that is where the stench comes in.  If this were pure ineptitude and incompetence you would not have the reaction.   (after all-  we have seen plenty of that over the years). The negativity is a reaction to Q-jr's utter disdain for all who are here and all who have preceded his brilliant leadership.

Much would be forgiven if Dad or Bill Stenger came around and said " we made a mistake and let's work together."   As it stands now, picking up a shovel and pitching in, even by just being openly supportive, means I have to bring the stench into my other circles of life.  I hope they are successful but cannot undo what I know about Q's level of respect for me and this community.

thanks for bringing a reasoned and thoughtful message into the conversation.  At the end of the day,we are both right.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Mbedle-   I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here.  The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.
> 
> That said, you are totally missing the human side of this.  Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends.  My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK.  BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain?  Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management.  Bad management hurts real people.  It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance.  They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world.  The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space?  Human cost:  every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance.  They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales.  Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA,  the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train-  about zero.  The benefit to the kids if they have the space-  huge.  So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can?  to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY-  this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with.   Staffing-  do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.
> 
> ...



Spot on.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Sorry - forgot to post a "Tigger Warning" first....
> 
> The tax issue was a disagreement on what taxes should be paid on an unfinished hotel. Moving forward, after the hotel is complete, that should no longer be an issue.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, I don't think you really understand what is going on with Burke or this issue.  

As to the video, they DO mention Burke Mountain.  That's pretty obvious.  I believe that my sources did tell me that Q decided to leave the Chamber and not do anything with them.  Hence perhaps why they are not named specifically.  FWIW Q has been downright mean with local organizations for no apparent gain.  No donations, no outreach, nothing.  Instead he and Dad openly slandered the person who basically gave the money to BMA to run the place for years.  Nice guys.  

As to KT, you're wrong as other have pointed out.  

As said, this is not a normal "clean house" ownership move that folks dislike.  Instead Q declared war on many fronts.  He ripped up the deal with KT for the lift accessed trails that KT built.  He's fired, or driven out, almost every qualified local employee.  He's openly laughed at locals who have interviewed for jobs with the mountain.  He's now twice tried to retroactively bill the local high schools for slope time at an exorbitant rate (resulting in one leaving for Cannon).  He's demonstrated that he has NO CLUE how to run a ski area.  So all the pain for what gain?  

And the "well they are going to make it up by getting more tourists" misses the point.  Burke has been at about 70-75k skier days for several years because those are locals.  It's a hell of a lot easier to get to 100k or so when you already have 70-75k to start with.  In this tight market you are not going to "steal" 100k skier days from others....especially when you can't make snow or run the place. 

I like how you play devil's advocate, but it is just not the situation here.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon.  I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff.  I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2015)

I just checked the Academy website and they are listing their "home" races as being at Q Burke.  So it appears that they have come to terms.  If that is indeed the case you can thank Stenger.


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## oldtimer (Nov 13, 2015)

This is a clear illustration of what is wrong with Q'-jr and thus why many of us are not cheer leaders.   It is perfectly fine that we do not know the details of their relationship with SJA today. For most of us, it is none of our business.  But, if SJA has "reached an agreement" with junior not one among us would trust that for sure, on Dec 12th, Jasn 12th, Feb 12th etc  that he would honor the agreement.  There is way, way, too much evidence that if he is calling the shots no one can trust him.




VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon.  I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff.  I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.


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## River19 (Nov 13, 2015)

And, wasn't Jr supposed to take a reduced role?  I have seen more and more evidence that has not really happened.....


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure if the St. Johnsbury Academy has left for Cannon.  I know that they had made arrangements to switch to Cannon, but that Stenger tried to talk Ary back from the edge of the cliff.  I do not know if they ever kissed and made up.



On my visit I heard that both LI and SJA were going to be there this season thanks to Stenger's efforts once again to stop the invoices.


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## 56fish (Nov 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> All of that would make sense IF the talent they brought in was more capable than that which they let go.
> 
> Ary has been a complete disaster as a manager.  If Q senior was making actual business based decisions, he'd fire his son.




Second sentence is the most accurate statement on this topic. Word.


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2015)

I bummed, I wrote a really go response to this and never posted it before closing the window.... Damn. Anyway, excellent discussion TB and OT on the whole situation. Exactly how this forum should be. And yes, kind of playing the devil's advocate, but also trying to look at it from a  pure business approach. No matter what, we all want this resort to survive, grow and return to what the local community has always loved about Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I bummed, I wrote a really go response to this and never posted it before closing the window.... Damn. Anyway, excellent discussion TB and OT on the whole situation. Exactly how this forum should be. And yes, kind of playing the devil's advocate, but also trying to look at it from a  pure business approach. No matter what, we all want this resort to survive, grow and return to what the local community has always loved about Burke.



Yes, good discussion indeed.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Mbedle-   I am a pragmatic soul and in general agree with your view here.  The Q family owns the ball on the playground and if you want to play ball you sometimes need to shut up and just play.
> 
> That said, you are totally missing the human side of this.  Due to the way they have behaved, I look at Ary and his dad and feel that they are carpet baggers who will do anything to anyone to try and help themselves. They have fired many of my good friends.  My friends have mostly landed well, so are OK.  BUT, they not been replaced by better people- so why the pain?  Yes, cleaning house sometimes makes sense, but the current revolving door is a testament to bad management.  Bad management hurts real people.  It was extremely distasteful to see how a friend was treated who got very sick and Q did the wrong thing w/r/t a job and medical insurance.  They are ripping off the ski school instructors and making it impossible for the best instructors to augment their incomes as its done in every other ski school in the world.  The tiff about LI and SJA paying for training space?  Human cost:  every year L.I. gets a bunch of kids on the hill ski racing who otherwise would never get the chance.  They have rag tag equipment and a super tight budget. The kids buy season passes every year - most would not/will not/could not buy passes if L.I. did not have a program there. SO by pushing them off the hill Q loses the season pass sales.  Since the facility is used just about full time by BMA,  the marginal cost to have L.I. and SJA train-  about zero.  The benefit to the kids if they have the space-  huge.  So he tries to get blood from a stone because he thinks he can?  to cover costs that do not exist and he loses season pass sales. WHY-  this is the behaviour of the playground bully, not an intelligent businessman and not someone all of us want to be associated with.   Staffing-  do not get me started on how poorly the staff is treated w/r/t hours, pay and respect.
> 
> ...




Excellent post !


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2015)

Q-Jr. has no role at the mountain anymore....so they said.







:roll:

#hejustdoesntgetit


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2015)

Correction

#QseniorandStengerdontgetit


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Correction
> 
> #QseniorandStengerdontgetit



Yeah, that too......


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## oldtimer (Nov 16, 2015)

Ohhhh, from my sources, Stenger gets it, but does not have the authority to do the right thing with jr.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Q-Jr. has no role at the mountain anymore....so they said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's the only one in the photo who couldn't figure out how to smile.  I don't know... if my Daddy handed me a multi-million dollar operation and I didn't have to actually make my own career, I'd probably be able to smile.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Ohhhh, from my sources, Stenger gets it, but does not have the authority to do the right thing with jr.



That's what I've heard as well


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2015)

Nine more to 5,000!


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

08


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

07


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## zeke (Nov 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Ohhhh, from my sources, Stenger gets it, but does not have the authority to do the right thing with jr.



this implies he gives a damn. aside from the EB-5 boondoggle that is the hotel, i don't believe he does about Burke. why would he?


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## dlague (Nov 16, 2015)

05


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 16, 2015)

Little bit of snow up here this weekend and it is going to be cold tonight. But not consistently cold enough to fire up those pretty new fan guns on the training hill.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> this implies he gives a damn. aside from the EB-5 boondoggle that is the hotel, i don't believe he does about Burke. why would he?



So this is what I heard from my sources.  First, Stenger has had a relationship with Burke since 2000 when the BMA-related entity took over.  He saw them as a means to join forces to draw more skiers and riders, hence the reciprocity deal for a long time.  

Of course when they hit the EB-5 jackpot Q and him were looking for other opportunities.  Burke, at that time, had just invested in the HSQ, had no real operator to run the place, and was looking for an exit strategy in 2012 after a bad ski season.  Daddy Q liked the idea....and gave Bill the money.  I have been told by a family friend that Bill's son was initially tapped out to be the manager of Burke.  He had recently graduated from college and was "learning the ropes" at Jay.  Then Daddy Q objected because Junior needed a job.  Hence how we got him.  

Stenger's involvement with Burke is officially quite limited.  He is listed as an "advisor" to the board...the board being Daddy Q and his lawyer.  However, Stenger has had to swoop in and put his image and reputation on the line to bail the Qlowns out now several times.  So yes, he has something at stake...his reputation and credibility.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

"2"


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## the original trailboss (Nov 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So this is what I heard from my sources.  First, Stenger has had a relationship with Burke since 2000 when the BMA-related entity took over.  He saw them as a means to join forces to draw more skiers and riders, hence the reciprocity deal for a long time.
> 
> Of course when they hit the EB-5 jackpot Q and him were looking for other opportunities.  Burke, at that time, had just invested in the HSQ, had no real operator to run the place, and was looking for an exit strategy in 2012 after a bad ski season.  Daddy Q liked the idea....and gave Bill the money.  I have been told by a family friend that Bill's son was initially tapped out to be the manager of Burke.  He had recently graduated from college and was "learning the ropes" at Jay.  Then Daddy Q objected because Junior needed a job.  Hence how we got him.
> 
> Stenger's involvement with Burke is officially quite limited.  He is listed as an "advisor" to the board...the board being Daddy Q and his lawyer.  However, Stenger has had to swoop in and put his image and reputation on the line to bail the Qlowns out now several times.  So yes, he has something at stake...his reputation and credibility.




Stenger has implied/said several times that he is a stakeholder in the hotel project. I also was told he tried and failed (so far,at least )to rectify the management situation - Old Timer summed up that situation very well.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2015)

"0"


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## zeke (Nov 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So this is what I heard from my sources.  First, Stenger has had a relationship with Burke since 2000 when the BMA-related entity took over.  He saw them as a means to join forces to draw more skiers and riders, hence the reciprocity deal for a long time.
> 
> Of course when they hit the EB-5 jackpot Q and him were looking for other opportunities.  Burke, at that time, had just invested in the HSQ, had no real operator to run the place, and was looking for an exit strategy in 2012 after a bad ski season.  Daddy Q liked the idea....and gave Bill the money.  I have been told by a family friend that Bill's son was initially tapped out to be the manager of Burke.  He had recently graduated from college and was "learning the ropes" at Jay.  Then Daddy Q objected because Junior needed a job.  Hence how we got him.
> 
> Stenger's involvement with Burke is officially quite limited.  He is listed as an "advisor" to the board...the board being Daddy Q and his lawyer.  However, Stenger has had to swoop in and put his image and reputation on the line to bail the Qlowns out now several times.  So yes, he has something at stake...his reputation and credibility.



I've actually heard a very different angle on that

i was told by someone close to the situation that Stenger had no idea that Q was buying Burke and wasn’t happy about it at all. but he agreed to be the EB-5 face and partner on the hotel, after the fact.

I assume he agreed to this (not source backed, just makes sense to me) because of the “Admin” fee that they split for every investor brought in. i’ve read it’s $25,000 per investor. So for the goal of 216 investors in the original Burke plan, that’s $5.4 million for their little cabal to split up.

this makes more sense to me–stenger doesn’t know about the private purchase by Q, so he has no say in how it’s managed. he agrees to help with funding to keep the partnership and all the EB5 admin fees rolling in (at that time Burke, the airport,  two Newport projects, anc bio, etc. were all still on the table). also the reason he continues to bail them out of jr's antics–easy to swallow pride and apologize for someone else when you sleep on a pile of cash at night.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> I assume he agreed to this (not source backed, just makes sense to me) because of the “Admin” fee that they split for every investor brought in. i’ve read it’s $25,000 per investor. So for the goal of 216 investors in the original Burke plan, that’s $5.4 million for their little cabal to split up.


Pretty sure the "Admin" fee is $50,000 not $25,000 unless of course you talking about after the split.


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## mbedle (Nov 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> I've actually heard a very different angle on that
> 
> i was told by someone close to the situation that Stenger had no idea that Q was buying Burke and wasn’t happy about it at all. but he agreed to be the EB-5 face and partner on the hotel, after the fact.
> 
> ...



I'm a little confused, isn't Stenger a part owner of Q Burke?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2015)

It will be interesting to see how much of a role Stenger plays at Burke once the EB-5 projects have played out.


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## zeke (Nov 16, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I'm a little confused, isn't Stenger a part owner of Q Burke?



to my understanding he has nothing to do with the company that operates the ski mountain (except for the ridiculous board seat). he is part of the company building the hotel-with investors' money–a totally separate company. if the ludicrous aquatic and tennis center ever gets up and running, i'm sure that will be a separate company too. it helps keep liability down–or at least dispersed.

plus Q can sell land he already owns a privately-owned company to the investor-funded/owned company at a massive premium.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2015)

zeke said:


> I've actually heard a very different angle on that
> 
> i was told by someone close to the situation that Stenger had no idea that Q was buying Burke and wasn’t happy about it at all. but he agreed to be the EB-5 face and partner on the hotel, after the fact.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that Burke reached out to Stenger to see if he and Q-Daddy were interested in buying the resort.  Now I agree that Daddy just assumes that he can run the ski area on his own ("I'll just copy Stenger"), but it isn't working.


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## zeke (Nov 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm pretty sure that Burke reached out to Stenger to see if he and Q-Daddy were interested in buying the resort.  Now I agree that Daddy just assumes that he can run the ski area on his own ("I'll just copy Stenger"), but it isn't working.



the operations company from canada did on behalf of the hedge fund that "owned" the mountain ops. what i  understand is that Q sr acted on his own with that information and didn't include stenger. i could be wrong, but anyone who is arrogant enough to put a giant Q in front of everything and think everyone will do the same–even to the point of asking the state to change the official name of the mountain itself is arrogant enough to get sick of all the pro-stenger headlines and press that they ultimately funded.

end of the day. the Q family of f-ups runs mountain ops 100% and stenger is involved to keep the EB5 gravy flowing–and to do so, needs to at least put a jay management spin on mountain ops to fight bad press from team Q.

they brought in that andrew kid who seemed genuinely qualified and eager, that didn't last, they tried it with steve wright and that seemed to last about an hour. if stenger had any real say, neither would have left imho


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## River19 (Nov 17, 2015)

It's interesting, in thsi soap opera the focus all summer has been on the hotel and getting the hotel open by 12/11 and then the rumors of funding issues, then no issues, then issues, then no issues etc.

If 60% of the last few posts are true about how the inmates are running the asylum with Q-Bert in 100% control of mountain ops and F&B.....then eff the hotel, their biggest issue is the day to day ski mountain is exactly the same as last year and the hotel is just lipstick on a pig.

"Don't mind the lack of open trails, bad customer service, lift oddities, policy confusion........look up there....shiny new toy....look kids a beautiful new partially completed hotel."

Am I misinterpreting things or is there a chance the mountain ops portion takes only 2 steps forward when they needed to take 10 steps forward?


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## oldtimer (Nov 17, 2015)

2 more positive notes-  1) it is getting colder.  Sooner or later snow will be made and turns will be made.  2) We are not stake holders in the Saddleback metropolitan area.  As much distaste as I have for the way the Q-family has operated, they have not (yet?) left us dangling like the Saddleback skiers.   Would those who ski there trade the name "q-Back" for lifts operating this winter?  That is a great hill that sure looks like it will b e earn your turns only this winter......


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## oldtimer (Nov 17, 2015)

2 steps forward?

if there are NET steps forward that will be good.  With the lack of experienced personnel we could see lots, lots more stuff like freezing up the snowmaking lines and lifts not running.  Buying the new guns does not, in and of itself, mean we have taken net steps forward.




River19 said:


> It's interesting, in thsi soap opera the focus all summer has been on the hotel and getting the hotel open by 12/11 and then the rumors of funding issues, then no issues, then issues, then no issues etc.
> 
> If 60% of the last few posts are true about how the inmates are running the asylum with Q-Bert in 100% control of mountain ops and F&B.....then eff the hotel, their biggest issue is the day to day ski mountain is exactly the same as last year and the hotel is just lipstick on a pig.
> 
> ...


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## River19 (Nov 17, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> 2 steps forward?
> 
> if there are NET steps forward that will be good.  With the lack of experienced personnel we could see lots, lots more stuff like freezing up the snowmaking lines and lifts not running.  Buying the new guns does not, in and of itself, mean we have taken net steps forward.



Fair point, I was trying to be positive....what was I thinking.....lol

Shiny new fan guns run by a rookie ops team could be a hot mess.......

We shall see......


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## faQ (Nov 17, 2015)

I think there is a town meeting tonight regarding trail lighting, no?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 17, 2015)

faQ said:


> I think there is a town meeting tonight regarding trail lighting, no?


From the town's website:

*Conservation Commission Agenda November 18th*

announced November 14, 2015

 *Burke Conservation Commission
*
*Agenda**Burke Town Clerk’s Office**November 18, 2015 – 6 p.m.

*​*Approve October meeting minutes (review ahead of time)*
*Discuss organizational changes *


*Night skiing Act 250 proposal for QBurke*
*Proposed riparian buffer regulation

Interactive map: http://burkevermont.org/rivercorridors.php
*
*Potential land protection/stewardship strategies *
*Other business/updates *
*Next meeting date: December 16*


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## halfpintvt (Nov 17, 2015)

ACT 250 NOTICE
APPLICATION AND HEARING
# 7C0206-15
10 V.S.A. §§ 6001 -6093 

On January 5, 2015, QBurke
Mountain Resort LLC [223 Sherburne Lodge Road, East 
Burke, VT 05832] filed application #7C0206 -15
for a project described as on mountain alpine ski trail lighting. The project is located on Burke Mountain in East Burke, Vermont. The application was deemed complete on October 19, 2015. This project will be evaluated by the District #7 Environmental Commission in accordance with the 10 environmental criteria of 10 V.S.A., § 6086(a). 

*A public hearing is scheduled for Tuesday evening, November 17, 2015 at 7:00 P.M. at the Burke Community Building, 212 School Street, West Burke, Vermont*.

*A site visit will be held before the hearing, at 6:00 P.M.* Directions to the site: Meet at the parking lot of the Darling Recreational Park, also known as the East Burke Park (playground), 905 Vermont Route 114 (north of East Burke village, and across from Woodmont Cemetery), from where participants will drive to different points of interest, for which private transportation will be required. If the site visit takes longer than one hour, the hearing start time will be later than 7:00 P.M. The Commission intends to narrow the scope of the hearing to Criteria 8 (aesthetics) and 10 (local plan conformance) unless the scope is expanded by the Commission at the hearing. 

The application may be viewed on the Natural Resources Board's web site (www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup)
by clicking "Act 250 Database" and entering the project number “7C0206-15”
For more information or disability accommodations, contact Kirsten Sultan, District Coordinator
before the hearing date at the address or telephone number below.
Dated at St. Johnsbury, Vermont this 30[SUP]th[/SUP] day of October, 2015
.
BY:
/s/ Kirsten Sultan
Kirsten Sultan, P.E., Coordinator
District #7 Environmental Commission
1229 Portland Street, Suite 201
St. Johnsbury, VT 05819
802-751-0126
kirsten.sultan@vermont.gov


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 17, 2015)

^If they are going to visit "different points of interest" as part of a site visit tonight, I wonder if they are going to put up some portable temporary lights to simulate the visibility of lighted trails.

I saw a truckload of 5 United Rentals units similar to these driving north through Lyndonville last Friday:









If that is the case I may need to take a drive around between 6 and 7:00 tonight.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 17, 2015)

And things are looking rather "complete" on the exterior via the webcam:

http://www.earthcam.net/projects/qburkemountain/resorthotel/index.php?cam=pano

I foresee the swailed area at the base of hill between the lift and the main entrance to the lodge being a muddy mess this spring.


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## oldtimer (Nov 17, 2015)

let us suppose that Q is serious about this and thinks there is money to be made with night skiing, perhaps Dashney only?  I suffer from having been around this industry for way too many years from NJ to Northern Maine.  I do not have enough fingers and toes to count the number of ski trails that I know of with some manner of scrapped lighting on them because some newbie thought they could extend the day and make more money.  Over the years miles of copper has been strung and ultimately harvested from the trees, but the big lights (from giant scoops with huge incandescent bulbs, to mercury vapor in massive housings, to directed spot lights) remain.

Why not viable?  Most that I am thinking of are EXACTLY like Burke.  More rural than urban.  A steady clientele, but mostly local, and a large percentage of skiers are season pass holders.  Will he milk any more form season pass holders-  not because of this.  Will it draw people from away?  no.  Will the few folks staying in the hotel plunk down more $ for this pleasure?  not more than once.

Night skiing is cold.  A "nice day" in January (+15 degrees and not too much wind) is easily zero at night and it feels colder at night.

who is successful with lights?  those with beer leagues and school programs.  They already get all the schools they are going to get (and they don't treat them especially well).  Beer league-  there ain't enough bodies.

I hope someone goes tonight since I cannot.  This makes no sense.


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## wtcobb (Nov 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I saw a truckload of 5 United Rentals units similar to these driving north through Lyndonville last Friday:



The lady drove by there Saturday night and said she saw lots of lights around the mountain. Could have been construction lights, but anyone see anything similar? Having a "demo" of the proposed lighting could make sense...


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> let us suppose that Q is serious about this and thinks there is money to be made with night skiing, perhaps Dashney only?  I suffer from having been around this industry for way too many years from NJ to Northern Maine.  I do not have enough fingers and toes to count the number of ski trails that I know of with some manner of scrapped lighting on them because some newbie thought they could extend the day and make more money.  Over the years miles of copper has been strung and ultimately harvested from the trees, but the big lights (from giant scoops with huge incandescent bulbs, to mercury vapor in massive housings, to directed spot lights) remain.
> 
> Why not viable?  Most that I am thinking of are EXACTLY like Burke.  More rural than urban.  A steady clientele, but mostly local, and a large percentage of skiers are season pass holders.  Will he milk any more form season pass holders-  not because of this.  Will it draw people from away?  no.  Will the few folks staying in the hotel plunk down more $ for this pleasure?  not more than once.
> 
> ...



Agree that nightskiing only works, and somewhat, in areas with more people and more demand.  Even then it is very cold.

Granted he appears to be going after the young freeskier/boarder group because he only wants to light the park.  But those folks generally have less disposable income (hence less revenue potential) and let's face it that market at Burke is relatively limited.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2015)

I agree with the earlier post.  What boggles my mind is that the only night skiing proposed is for the terrain park.  These are just a few concerns I have with their plan:

1) The lights won't attract a sufficient number of skiers who are actually paying to ski under the lights.  Park skiers generally have season passes, or would have skied during the day anyway.
2) Lighting only the terrain park caters to a small fraction of the skiers at the mountain - and a group that pays among the cheapest for season passes and drops very little money on concessions.  
3) The plan does not call for connecting the hotel with the trail that has lights.  If you are staying in the hotel you will presumably have to take a shuttle to get to the Sherburne lift.  Running a shuttle isn't cheap, and it's not that appealing when you are paying a premium for ski-in ski-out access.
4) Northern Vermont is much colder than southern New England.  

Is it possible that this is really a plan to feature lit mountain biking trails?  It doesn't get dark until pretty late during the summer, so I'm not sure what the appeal would be.

How does Bretton Woods do with their night skiing?  BW is a much bigger operation, but it's pretty darned rural.

If they want to generate revenue during the evening from their hotel guests, I would have put in snowtubing and/or ice skating.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2015)

The only place I've ever seen where night skiing truly works and is actually pretty cool, is the Poconos.

  In fact, the night skiing experience is the only thing I will praise the Poconos as genuinely excelling at (Blue Mountain, Shawnee, Camelback).

Everyplace else that has night skiing (or attempted and failed), it stinks.   
Also, night skiing will fail at Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only place I've ever seen where night skiing truly works and is actually pretty cool, is the Poconos.
> 
> In fact, the night skiing experience is the only thing I will praise the Poconos as genuinely excelling at (Blue Mountain, Shawnee, Camelback).
> 
> ...



The Poconos are generally (1) warmer, and (2) located close to major population centers.  Burke is neither.


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## Smellytele (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only place I've ever seen where night skiing truly works and is actually pretty cool, is the Poconos.
> 
> In fact, the night skiing experience is the only thing I will praise the Poconos as genuinely excelling at (Blue Mountain, Shawnee, Camelback).
> 
> ...



It succeeds at Pats Peak and the Mass ski areas that have it. Also Shawnee Peak in Maine.


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## Smellytele (Nov 17, 2015)

Agree not a great idea at Burke


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## yeggous (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The only place I've ever seen where night skiing truly works and is actually pretty cool, is the Poconos.
> 
> In fact, the night skiing experience is the only thing I will praise the Poconos as genuinely excelling at (Blue Mountain, Shawnee, Camelback).
> 
> ...



This is a very narrow view. Night skiing at Bromont is unbelievable. It's of a scale that I have never seen before. There are also successfully night skiing operations all across New England. Where I have seen successful night skiing:
- Mohawk
- Nashoba
- Wachusett
- McIntyre
- Crotched
- Gunstock
- Shawnee Peak
- Pats Peak

Those with mediocre at best:
- Bretton Woods
- Cranmore
- Sunday River

Others I have not visited:
- Blue Hills
- Ward
- Bradford
- King Pine
- Bolton Valley


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> It succeeds at Pats Peak and the Mass ski areas that have it. Also Shawnee Peak in Maine.


How does Shawnee Peak pull it off?  They aren't that close to Portland.


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## wtcobb (Nov 17, 2015)

I enjoyed night skiing at Gunstock and am looking at getting the night pass to BW - would be great to take some laps Friday night after work.

But for an economy of scale, I concur it likely won't generate a return.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Night skiing at Bromont is unbelievable. It's of a scale that I have never seen before.


 Why is it so good at Bromont?  Is is the amount of terrain that makes the difference?  I'm interested since I like the area anyway.

Keep in mind, though, that Bromont is only about an hour from Montreal and its eastern suburbs.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How does Bretton Woods do with their night skiing?  BW is a much bigger operation, but it's pretty darned rural.



I haven't been to BW for night skiing for 7 or 8 years. I used to go for Friday night beer league racing. There were quite a few people there. The small park was very crowded (usually 10-15 people deep waiting to drop in).

I think the offering of a nighttime park will drive season pass sales up both among LSC students and S New Englanders looking for a place to bring their park rat kids while the adults want to have alone time in the evening 

With new LED lights being pretty cheap to run, I could see it being easier to recoup the investment.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2015)

Hour and ten minutes from downtown Portland is pretty close.  Pretty populated suburbs a fair bit closer to Shawnee as well.   When I lived in Portland I went at least one night a winter.  Best night skiing in VT, NH or ME IMO.


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## wtcobb (Nov 17, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Night skiing at Bromont is unbelievable.



We hosted some guests from Ottawa who raved about Bromont and the Nuit Blanche. I'm hoping to get there to experience it this year.


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## wtcobb (Nov 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Why is it so good at Bromont?  Is is the amount of terrain that makes the difference?  I'm interested since I like the area anyway.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, that Bromont is only about an hour from Montreal and its eastern suburbs.



It's a pretty huge event each week - not just lights on a hill.

http://nuitsblanches.ca/en/


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## yeggous (Nov 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Why is it so good at Bromont?  Is is the amount of terrain that makes the difference?  I'm interested since I like the area anyway.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, that Bromont is only about an hour from Montreal and its eastern suburbs.



Yes, the selection of night skiing terrain is unmatched anywhere else I have been. I went a couple years ago on a Saturday night. Their night skiing allowed me to spend the day in Montreal, and still get a full day of skiing.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hour and ten minutes from downtown Portland is pretty close.  Pretty populated suburbs a fair bit closer to Shawnee as well.   When I lived in Portland I went at least one night a winter.  Best night skiing in VT, NH or ME IMO.


I always forget that it's that close to Portland.  As suburban creep happens, it always feels like the drive is longer - even when I avoid Route 302.


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## yeggous (Nov 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I always forget that it's that close to Portland.  As suburban creep happens, it always feels like the drive is longer - even when I avoid Route 302.



It's also only about 30-45 minutes to North Conway. I've been known to visit it when I'm in town and too hung over to get out for first chair, or if I want some runs after work on Friday evening on my way up.


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## River19 (Nov 17, 2015)

Aside from the whole "we aren't Nashoba" problem with night skiing (ie. no leagues etc.) I am thinking that since it appears the target market is the younger boarders.....and as stated already, they already have a season pass and don't spend squat in concessions usually, and they probably rode the park all day as it is.  Sure they might want to go out again after dinner with the parents but what additional revenue is that bringing in?


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## slatham (Nov 17, 2015)

Jiminy Peak in Mass has very good night skiing. I've always felt that northern area night skiing would be too adversely affected by cold and distance to major population areas.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

River19 said:


> Aside from the whole "we aren't Nashoba" problem with night skiing (ie. no leagues etc.) I am thinking that since it appears the target market is the younger boarders.....and as stated already, they already have a season pass and don't spend squat in concessions usually, and they probably rode the park all day as it is.  Sure they might want to go out again after dinner with the parents but what additional revenue is that bringing in?



Probably bringing in more costs....running the lifts and now lights for passholders to hit the park again.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2015)

From their latest email:
"Q Burke is ready to go and its looking like we will be pushing to open the first weekend of December, not Thanksgiving, if these temps don't get colder."

I can't really fault them for pushing back the opening date.


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## oldtimer (Nov 17, 2015)

Those who are too arrogant to study history (or ask others who know more) are bound to repeat history.  case closed.  He will do what he wants.

Honestly, if he were like the old benefactor who backed his ideas with deep pockets, it would not bother me a lick.  BUT if, as I fear, he does this he will double down on it 3 or 4 times before giving up.  If you assume that he will merciless penny pinch this year, as he has done in the past, then by draining resources this directly effects the quality of the product he puts out for those of us who do not care about the park.  We lose again.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

Just saw this.....



> ATTENTION SEASON PASS HOLDERS.  Save the date for the first round table meeting of the season. Join us this Saturday, November 21st at 10am in the Kingdom Cafe, Sherburne Base Lodge.  Learn about our accomplishments with phase 1 of the snowmaking expansion, our snow making plan for the season, your season pass holder benefits for the 2015/16 season and of course, a progress report on the Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center.





And I'd be there but I don't have time for meetings to talk about skiing because I will be actually skiing


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2015)

I was curious to see if there was a list of most night skiing acres in America (since some western spots offer it too), but I came up empty.  Anyone know if such a list exists?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I was curious to see if there was a list of most night skiing acres in America (since some western spots offer it too), but I came up empty.  Anyone know if such a list exists?



Congratulations.  You now have a new project.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Congratulations.  You now have a new project.



Maybe he can apply for funding for the study through EB5?


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## dlague (Nov 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Why is it so good at Bromont?  Is is the amount of terrain that makes the difference?  I'm interested since I like the area anyway.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, that Bromont is only about an hour from Montreal and its eastern suburbs.



That is because they make a huge event out of it.  They also have lots of lit up terrain.

We go night skiing at Gunstock and there generally is a decent crowd on Tuesdays.

Pats kills it!

We have been to Shawnee Peak at night when it was really cold.  It was a Friday and the place was busy.

King Pine also does well!

When our kids were young we did McIntyre and that seemed busy but that is also in the middle of Manchester.

Crotchet is fun at night too!  And their midnight madness is popular.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Maybe he can apply for funding for the study through EB5?



He only needs one investor to generate one job.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> *he can apply for funding for the study through EB5*




 With EB-5 you need to create 10 jobs for every immigrant VISA, but I'd only need to hire 1 analyst for this work.

In other words, yes, EB-5 would be perfect.


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## Jully (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I was curious to see if there was a list of most night skiing acres in America (since some western spots offer it too), but I came up empty.  Anyone know if such a list exists?



Shawnee claims most night skiing in New England, but I have no idea if this is even valid never mind acreage of other areas.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 17, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I was curious to see if there was a list of most night skiing acres in America (since some western spots offer it too), but I came up empty.  Anyone know if such a list exists?


Could quite possibly be Mont Sainte Anne in the east. Bromont would be another guess but they have less vertical as does Stoneham. Out west I know Keystone has quite a bit of night terrain. Just guesses on my part


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## yeggous (Nov 18, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Could quite possibly be Mont Sainte Anne in the east. Bromont would be another guess but they have less vertical as does Stoneham. Out west I know Keystone has quite a bit of night terrain. Just guesses on my part



Bromont advertises the most night skiing in the East. Having been night skiing there, I believe them.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mbedle (Nov 18, 2015)

Does Bromont offer night skiing other than the big nights they list on there website? Have to say, they look like they through a pretty big party with their night skiing. For the Q Burke stuff, seems kind of odd to only offer it on two beginner trails. Not sure how much use it will get, but with such a minimal investment, no great loss if it doesn't take. Would guess that this is being installed to basically cater to the hotel guests and some local kids. At least this won't have any effect on this years activities.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 18, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> It succeeds at Pats Peak and the Mass ski areas that have it. Also Shawnee Peak in Maine.



Most of the smaller areas in Maine also have night skiing still.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

Bromont


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

Mont Saint Anne


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2015)

Nice pics.


----------



## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice pics.


Thanks (google is your friend). I was only trying to point out that Bromont has a vertical of only 1300 ft. while Mont Saint Anne's vertical is slightly more than 2000 ft. Bromont might claim to have the most night skiing but I think Mont Saint Anne does. Besides Bromont is mostly a beginner/intermediate area while Saint Anne offers significantly more challenge.

Only places I've ever night skied at was Saint Anne & Stoneham. Stoneham has quite a bit of night terrain also.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Does Bromont offer night skiing other than the big nights they list on there website?



The week I spent in the Eastern Townships (midweek) they were lit up every night. I could see the lights from my hotel room at Sutton. This wasn't a holiday week either.

Mont Saint Anne was also open every night when I was there a non holiday week.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2015)

Jully said:


> Shawnee claims most night skiing in New England, but *I have no idea if this is even valid never mind acreage* of other areas.




The reason I was looking for acreage, is we all know how easily and readily ski areas will lie if you don't pin them down to a useful metric (e.g. number of trails means nothing to me if one top-to-bottom run is divided up into three trail names).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2015)

Here's a Pocono picture to add to the above (Camelback here).


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Here's a Pocono picture to add to the above (Camelback here).



Another cool pic.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2015)

Then there is the Mont St Sauveur region that has a group of 4 or 5 ski areas offering night skiing.


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## ironhippy (Nov 18, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> The week I spent in the Eastern Townships (midweek) they were lit up every night. I could see the lights from my hotel room at Sutton. This wasn't a holiday week either.
> 
> Mont Saint Anne was also open every night when I was there a non holiday week.



Mount Saint Anne is open Wed - Saturday night on non holiday weekends. They sell night only season passes and are rather busy most nights with Quebec City only being a half hour away.


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## xwhaler (Nov 18, 2015)

Speaking of Night skiing I noticed that Gunstock is starting night skiing at 3 this season which gives you the ability to lap the HSQ off the top for an hour.
This is a nice feature as Tiger chair is very slow and Pistol terrain not compelling enough to lap all night.
May get me up there some afternoon/evening this season.


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## benski (Nov 18, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Bromont



I looked at their map and it appeared to be much larger with 2 base areas, 2 peaks and a backside. I think from looking at there map this is only 1/3 of there mountain with night skiing evenly spread around their mountain.


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## River19 (Nov 18, 2015)

Any news of how the Town Meeting went?


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## steamboat1 (Nov 18, 2015)

ironhippy said:


> Mount Saint Anne is open Wed - Saturday night on non holiday weekends. They sell night only season passes and are rather busy most nights with Quebec City only being a half hour away.



They also sell day tickets that are good from 12pm -9pm. I liked these because you could sleep late then ski all afternoon & when the light got flat I'd stop for dinner. When the night lighting took over I'd then go out & ski a few more hours.

edit: I also found the mountain emptied out after 4pm. They also regroomed the mountain after 4pm.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2015)

River19 said:


> Any news of how the Town Meeting went?


I didn't go to the town meeting but I was able to see that they had floodlights on at the top terminal of the Sherburne Express (as viewed from Sutton at 5:15). I don't think they had all of the lights on yet (the site visit didn't officially start until 6:00) but I had to get the kids home for supper.
The mass of lights on the left side is the new hotel. The bright area highest/right side is the lights near the lift:






A pretty far cry from the massive night skiing ops shown in posts above.

Doing this test without snow on the ground would definitely make a difference in how much light is reflected upward.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 18, 2015)

I'm surprised that there was nothing in the newspaper today, but maybe the story missed the deadline.

I expect there to be some opposition.  This is the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, after all.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm surprised that there was nothing in the newspaper today, but maybe the story missed the deadline.
> 
> I expect there to be some opposition.  This is the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, after all.



I'm sure there are going to be some people (loudly) up in arms about it. IMHO, the hotel is going to be a much larger source of light pollution since it sits out on the middle of an open area and its lights will be on all night/every night.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I didn't go to the town meeting but I was able to see that they had floodlights on at the top terminal of the Sherburne Express (as viewed from Sutton at 5:15). I don't think they had all of the lights on yet (the site visit didn't officially start until 6:00) but I had to get the kids home for supper.
> The mass of lights on the left side is the new hotel. The bright area highest/right side is the lights near the lift:
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting.


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## dlague (Nov 18, 2015)

Gunstock


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## wtcobb (Nov 18, 2015)

I skied Gunstock's New Year's celebration several years ago - fairly good time. They do a great job with the night skiing, but the pub closed at 11!!


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 18, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I didn't go to the town meeting but I was able to see that they had floodlights on at the top terminal of the Sherburne Express (as viewed from Sutton at 5:15). I don't think they had all of the lights on yet (the site visit didn't officially start until 6:00) but I had to get the kids home for supper.
> The mass of lights on the left side is the new hotel. The bright area highest/right side is the lights near the lift:
> 
> 
> ...



Were those lights at the top of the Sherburne lift cuz they appear above the hotel at mid Burke?


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Were those lights at the top of the Sherburne lift cuz they appear above the hotel at mid Burke?



The top of the Sherburne lift is about 160' higher than the hotel.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 18, 2015)

Burke's Facebook page shows a single fan gun blowing snow.  It looks more like a test than anything else, but it's a start.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke's Facebook page shows a single fan gun blowing snow.  It looks more like a test than anything else, but it's a start.


Impressive range on that thing!


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## mbedle (Nov 18, 2015)

It was a test - the post below it was "testing, testing 123...). Still nice to see the new guns up a running. Think positive people!


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 19, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The top of the Sherburne lift is about 160' higher than the hotel.


I know that.Thats why I asked if the lights were at the top of the Sherbie or if the photo was an elusion.


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## oldtimer (Nov 19, 2015)

YES-   the glow you see on the right is at the top of the Sherburne.  The hotel is tot he left and you can make out the individual windows etc.


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## halfpintvt (Nov 19, 2015)

Throwback Thursday, a blast from the past circa 2008


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 19, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I know that.Thats why I asked if the lights were at the top of the Sherbie or if the photo was an elusion.


I'm not sure what *il*lusion you are referring to. But here is another long exposure photo (Blurry because I didn't have a tripod with me) with some labels to help you orient yourself.







The "mass of lights" at the hotel site are the lights that are in and around the hotel. They are not portable floodlights. The bluish green light that appears to be on top of the hotel is the yard light that is on the side of the old Mid-Burke lodge.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 19, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Throwback Thursday, a blast from the past circa 2008



Ahh yes... Bridgemor :roll:uke:


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 19, 2015)

To go along with the rendering of the buildings, here is the Ginn trail expansion plan (green and blue highlights =widened/new cut trails):





I wish I would have saved more of those documents.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 19, 2015)

More TBT: Circa 1986?


Summit Double






The Gap:






Top of East Bowl, Whites in the distance...


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm not sure what *il*lusion you are referring to. But here is another long exposure photo (Blurry because I didn't have a tripod with me) with some labels to help you orient yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok guys.Iopnly asked if the lights were at the top of the Sherbie because they are shown above Mid Burke in your photo.I know where the hotel is in the pic.If the lights were on the bottom of the Sherbie then the photo would appear to be a distorted view.Thats certainly not the case.Thanks though.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Throwback Thursday, a blast from the past circa 2008



Wow.  Blast from the past.  'Easter Mountain'?  Where did you get that?


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## Masskier (Nov 20, 2015)

From their Facebook page;

"Last evening's Ski Patrol duties. Hanging trail signs and getting ready for winter. Snowmaking will begin this weekend with a favorable window looking like Sunday night through Wednesday. Our projected opening date will be Saturday, Dec. 5th as temps won't allow us to get enough snow pack down for Thanksgiving."


















​


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## yeggous (Nov 20, 2015)

> Index of ftp://skiburke.com/develop/ (ftp://skiburke.com/develop/)  I think this was the Crave Real Estate site. Interesting info here



That is unbelievable. I need a cup of coffee to help me fully appreciate those.

Kudos.


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## halfpintvt (Nov 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow.  Blast from the past.  'Easter Mountain'?  Where did you get that?



index of ftp://skiburke.com/develop/ (ftp://skiburke.com/develop/)  I think this was the Crave Real Estate site. Interesting info here :smile:
I found this site by "accident" after googling "skiburke". You never know what you'll find on the web.


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## yeggous (Nov 20, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> index of ftp://skiburke.com/develop/ (ftp://skiburke.com/develop/)  I think this was the Crave Real Estate site. Interesting info here :smile:
> I found this site by "accident" after googling "skiburke". You never know what you'll find on the web.



It's all just sitting publicly available at:
ftp://ftp.skiburke.com/

That is some really interesting information. It is several years old, but it includes lots of invoices and details on their development plan. They have a LOT of condos planned!


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 20, 2015)

yeggous said:


> they *had* a lot of condos planned!


fify


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## yeggous (Nov 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> fify



Are they still planning on the two lifts and new terrain shown over on the East Bowl side?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2015)

Yeah...was going to say they had a lot planned.  Not sure which is worse--what is there or what almost was there.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 20, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Are they still planning on the two lifts and new terrain shown over on the East Bowl side?



The "Cutter Area" is officially canned I think. The lift in the East Bowl is still on the theoretical drawing board.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah...was going to say they had a lot planned.  Not sure which is worse--what is there or what almost was there.


The construction that is currently occuring is far lower key than what Ginn was planning. However a couple of the proposed layouts of building footprints in the mid-Burke lodge area was actually rather similar to the current layout.






I guess I always assumed the major building project was going to be around the Cutter base.

I'd much rather have the current building than the 9+ story monstrosity found here: :blink: :-ouke:

ftp://skiburke.com/develop/Mid Burke Unit Types.pdf


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## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2015)

Sunday through mid next week is appearing to be a nice window for us to turn on the snow guns and get a good base down to contribute to opening the first trails of the season. Due to the projected forecast heading into Thanksgiving weekend, we have slightly delayed opening weekend and expect to be ready to go Saturday, December 5th.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Sunday through mid next week is appearing to be a nice window for us to turn on the snow guns and get a good base down to contribute to opening the first trails of the season. Due to the projected forecast heading into Thanksgiving weekend, we have slightly delayed opening weekend and expect to be ready to go Saturday, December 5th.



I saw that.  Burke has only opened for Thanksgiving once as far as I can recall.....at least since 1990.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 20, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The construction that is currently occuring is far lower key than what Ginn was planning. However a couple of the proposed layouts of building footprints in the mid-Burke lodge area was actually rather similar to the current layout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very similar in terms of the idea...but yes, the current building is much smaller.  The Ginn concept was nuts....almost like Stratton but worse IMHO.


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## Masskier (Nov 22, 2015)

Some highlights from the season pass holder's meeting yesterday.

Snow making starts tonight
opening schedule for Dec 5th

Snow making improvements made this year (as we know) include 20 new super pole cats, most installed on Warrens Way, some will stay portable, most of the tower guns on Warrens Way were added to Dippers. New pump (1,000 gpm) added to upper mountain, it replace 2 older (400 gpm) pumps (one which was not working).  Next year a bigger investment in snow making is planed, which will increase the pumping capacity higher on the upper mountain to 2,100 gpm, and adding more fan guns. The goal is to be able to bounce back very quickly from any warm spells.  They will release more details later on the plan for next year.

Hotel is opening December 11 (or within a day or two of the 11th).  West wing and commercial areas first and then East wing about a  week later. Cleaning crew is currently working on the top 3 floors of the west wing.  Reservations are going very well and they need to have both wings open by the 18th to accommodate advance reservations.

The last two years their skier visits has been in the low 70's(k), this year with the hotel they project skier visits to be in the 90-95k area.

Ary introduced Mel Diaz (VP and general manager of the Hotel) and Tom Thal (General manager mountain operations). They both have extensive experience in their fields.

Overall a good meeting.  About 35 pass holders attended, mainly locals with a handful of Condo owners.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2015)

WCAX had a story yesterday about ski area openings.  They interviewed someone from Ski Vermont.  The Ski Vermont rep announced to WCAX that Burke will be opening on Thanksgiving weekend.  That's a marketing snafu.  Burke should have informed Ski Vermont of their delayed opening.

Interesting about the annual skier visits.  It sounds like Q had definitely not been able to grow skier visits, and with the weather being epic the last two years it sounds like it was arguably an effective decline.  No doubt their lack of snowmaking for the Christmas week had something to do with those numbers.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2015)

This article confirms that the 70,000 skier visits that Q achieved in great snow years with ramped up marketing is definitely poor.

http://www.masslive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2013/12/jay_peak_ski_area_hopes_to_use.html

Of particular note, is this comment about pre-Q skier visits:
“Burke has had four to five owner groups in the past few years the reason for that is they have had 70,000 to 80,000 skier visits a year and you cannot do that and be sustainable,” Toland said. 

A study of the area shows it will take about 120,000 visits a year to be financially viable and Tolland said they believe a hotel and other amenities will do that.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2015)

Hopefully Q lets those two new managers do their jobs. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 22, 2015)

Masskier said:


> The last two years their skier visits has been in the low 70's(k), this year with the hotel *they project skier visits to be in the 90-95k area.*



Simply adding a hotel is going to increase your skier visits by 30% over what you did during two very long seasons with great-snow?

Put me down for $200 on the Under.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2015)

Sounds like an interesting meeting.  

First question:  who did the talking?  Stenger?  Q?  The new managers?  If it was Q, I would not give what he said much credence at all.  

Second point:



BenedictGomez said:


> Simply adding a hotel is going to increase your skier visits by 30% over what you did during two very long seasons with great-snow?
> 
> Put me down for $200 on the Under.



Ambitious goal, indeed.  I have said all along that merely building a hotel does not solve their problems.  If I had to guess as to my first question, I'd say that Q, Jr. was the one who said that all is now well.  The stars will all have to align for them to get that 30% increase--a good snow year (not off to a good start there), the hotel operating without a hitch (also doubtful since I don't think they can adequately staff it and there are always problems the first year), and no more drama.  It is not realistic to think that you can start a new hotel without some time to work out the bugs.    

Here's the kicker: say they do get a modest bump, but not 30%.  I'd imagine they'd can these new managers and then we'd be right back where we were.  Great.  :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2015)

Hasn't Jay more than doubled their skier visits with three new hotels?


.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2015)

Jay had 300k skier visits in 2003 prior to hotels

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/jaypeak.php

Same website doesn't give today's totals, but I believe it's around 400k tops


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Jay had 300k skier visits in 2003 prior to hotels
> 
> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/jaypeak.php
> 
> Same website doesn't give today's totals, but I believe it's around 400k tops



My bad.

Can someone explain to me how Stenger said that Jay got 4.4 million skier visits per year in this article?
http://www.uvm.edu/rsenr/dkaufman/157pdfs/jaypeak.pdf

The interesting part is at the very end of the article.  


.


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## Smellytele (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Hasn't Jay more than doubled their skier visits with three new hotels?
> 
> 
> .



Also they have a waterpark.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My bad.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how Stenger said that Jay got 4.4 million skier visits per year in this article?
> http://www.uvm.edu/rsenr/dkaufman/157pdfs/jaypeak.pdf
> ...



No idea.  Maybe that's total visitors to the resort including water park, hockey, golf etc?   

There's not a ski area in  North America that does 4.4M visits a year. That number is probably about what the entire state of VT does in skier visits.

Clearly bad editing in the article.  

On a side note, I had Dave Kaufman as a professor at UVM.  He was one of my favorites.


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## River19 (Nov 23, 2015)

I hope they are smart about the snowmaking this week as Wed-Friday can undo everything they do before then.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> I hope they are smart about the snowmaking this week as Wed-Friday can undo everything they do before then.



The good news is that after Friday, temps look very favorable for snowmaking.  But the hotel is opening on December 11th, and they really need to get trails open for the opening.  This is especially important given the lack of snowmaking for the past couple of Christmas holidays.  Hopefully the upgrades to snowmaking will prove their worth in the next couple of weeks.


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## River19 (Nov 23, 2015)

Of course, I am enjoying the heck out of the "Indian Autumn" as it is perfect conditions for hunting with our dogs......so we ahve been enjoying the extra woods time without dealing with "snow balls" on/in paws etc.

Could have a lot of people skiing down one trail opening weekend......oh sorry, I forgot ski areas name every 100yds down the mountain another "trail" to increase trail count......lol


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2015)

I wonder to what extent electricity rates are going to impact their snowmaking efforts.  My understanding is that they are allotted a certain number of kilowatt hours at a lower rate, and if they exceed this cap their rate goes WAY up.


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## River19 (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I wonder to what extent electricity rates are going to impact their snowmaking efforts.  My understanding is that they are allotted a certain number of kilowatt hours at a lower rate, and if they exceed this cap their rate goes WAY up.



Better hope that single turbine spins like a bastard all winter then.....


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## Masskier (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I wonder to what extent electricity rates are going to impact their snowmaking efforts.  My understanding is that they are allotted a certain number of kilowatt hours at a lower rate, and if they exceed this cap their rate goes WAY up.



At the meeting they did say the KW hours were increased again this year.  However I don't remember the amount.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My bad.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how Stenger said that Jay got 4.4 million skier visits per year in this article?
> http://www.uvm.edu/rsenr/dkaufman/157pdfs/jaypeak.pdf
> ...



It's not apples to apples. 300k skier days vs 4.4 million visitors. 4.4 million skier days is about what the entire state gets a season.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2015)

It's pretty cold outside.  Does anyone know if Burke is blowing snow?


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's pretty cold outside.  Does anyone know if Burke is blowing snow?



The only thing I could find is this:
Last evening's Ski Patrol duties. Hanging trail signs and getting ready for winter. Snowmaking will begin this weekend with a favorable window looking like Sunday(11/22) night through Wednesday. Our projected opening date will be Saturday, Dec. 5th as temps won't allow us to get enough snow pack down for Thanksgiving.

Besides that they had pics of tree/cutting on their nordic trail on Sunday but no sm.


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## Gman (Nov 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's pretty cold outside.  Does anyone know if Burke is blowing snow?



Of course they are not blowing snow
....according to my local source.


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## River19 (Nov 23, 2015)

So far today looks like the folowing have been posting snowmaking pics

Gore Mountain
Smugglers Notch (I refuse to call it "Smuggs")
Attitash
Wachusett


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> So far today looks like the folowing have been posting snowmaking pics
> 
> Gore Mountain
> Smugglers Notch (I refuse to call it "Smuggs")
> ...



Add Pats Peak to that list


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

Any new snowcats at the mountain?


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## billski (Nov 23, 2015)

Who's skiing Burke this year?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

billski said:


> Who's skiing Burke this year?



I will be there for a few days hopefully


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## the original trailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

billski said:


> Who's skiing Burke this year?



I picked up my pass today !


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## 56fish (Nov 23, 2015)

Got a "Judge" mid-week.....hope to use at Burke!  Never seen a lift line mid-week, probably a bit indicative of their $$$ woes.  Hope Stenger et al can drive some biz there to ensure survival.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 24, 2015)

According to the Caledonian Record, Burke reports that it has already started snowmaking.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> According to the Caledonian Record, Burke reports that it has already started snowmaking.


Guns running this morning. I couldn't tell if it was just the training hill.
12 degrees at the house this morning. If they weren't making snow, I think it would be fair to say there would be some people that would be rather upset.


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## Masskier (Nov 24, 2015)




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## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *Burke reports that it has already started snowmaking*.



That's good.   Should keep this thread from reaching 6,000 by December.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2015)

Masskier said:


>



Strike up the band.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2015)

Nobody's going to negatively comment, whine, and complain about old ski guns/snowmaking technology?

This place is getting soft.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 24, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nobody's going to negatively comment, whine, and complain about old ski guns/snowmaking technology?
> 
> This place is getting soft.


Give it time...


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 24, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nobody's going to negatively comment, whine, and complain about old ski guns/snowmaking technology?
> 
> This place is getting soft.



HAHA

That's the first thing I noticed I those photos!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 24, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nobody's going to negatively comment, whine, and complain about old ski guns/snowmaking technology?
> 
> This place is getting soft.



So I see some towers going...older ones, but still good ones...and a few ground guns.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the latter are still used for base building.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 28, 2015)

It appears that Q Burke is not participating with Liftopia this year.  Jay Peak is.  I wonder why Q Burke chose not to.

I also see that for the hotel, they are defining President's Week as February 13th-28th, 2016.  That's a long week!


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## troy (Nov 28, 2015)

deleted


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It appears that Q Burke is not participating with Liftopia this year.  Jay Peak is.  I wonder why Q Burke chose not to.
> 
> I also see that for the hotel, they are defining President's Week as February 13th-28th, 2016.  That's a long week!



That is to also try to get the NH vacation week at high prices. Hope they don't do that for the skiing as well or i will not be going there this year to ski. Not that they will miss me.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> That is to also try to get the NH vacation week at high prices. Hope they don't do that for the skiing as well or i will not be going there this year to ski. Not that they will miss me.



That's also the week for VT kids in the area. One thing we know is that Q could care less about the locals.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That's also the week for VT kids in the area. One thing we know is that Q could care less about the locals.



It also makes sure that locals can't use the Vermonter rate for 3 straight weekends in the heart of the season.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It also makes sure that locals can't use the Vermonter rate for 3 straight weekends in the heart of the season.



That too.  It might get reversed like other things that Q has done.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 29, 2015)

Snow report says that 25 guns are blowing.  That's pretty much the same as last year before the "improvements ".


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Snow report says that 25 guns are blowing.  That's pretty much the same as last year before the "improvements ".



They bought a booster pump for water, but haven't publicly stated doing anything about the increasing compressor capacity... Doesn't sound like they fired up the new fanguns either. You'd think that they'd want to brag about the new fanguns and how quickly/early they can open the training slope and therefore the Poma. Just think of all the extra schools/colleges they could attract to buy passes. 

Oh wait...


----------



## Masskier (Nov 29, 2015)

There were 4 super pole cats going this morning around the mid Burke area.   They really cover a large area.   I didn't realize that they rotated.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

Masskier said:


> There were 4 super pole cats going this morning around the mid Burke area.   They really cover a large area.   I didn't realize that they rotated.



Sweet.  That will really help them.  I know that they have that option.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 29, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They bought a booster pump for water, but haven't publicly stated doing anything about the increasing compressor capacity... Doesn't sound like they fired up the new fanguns either. You'd think that they'd want to brag about the new fanguns and how quickly/early they can open the training slope and therefore the Poma. Just think of all the extra schools/colleges they could attract to buy passes.
> 
> Oh wait...



I saw their posting earlier last week that bragged about 25 guns going and almost commented here because it seemed pretty weak when you consider that Sunday River had 300 going the same day.  It's such a competitive market that it might have been better to just say that they were really working hard to open and had snowmaking going on X trails.  That said, it is great that they give you such detail and they need to really work to earn back the credibility that Q has lost them.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 29, 2015)

They promised better snowmaking this year.  If they don't deliver its going to set their credibility back.  So far it appears that they can't blow more snow, or at best can only marginally do so.  25 guns is what they could do last year.   


.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

This week's forecast does not look good for a Dec 5th opening.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

I just tried to order 20 gift cards as part of their Cyber Monday promotion.  Shipping is $100. 

WTF.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2015)

Seriously? $5 shipping per card?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Seriously? $5 shipping per card?



No joke.  


.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2015)

I would kindly write Ary a note explaining a stamped envelope is 62 cents and you opted to buy Visa gift cards from another vendor due to their unreasonable mark up


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## oldtimer (Nov 30, 2015)

looks like lower Willoughby before the training hill.  BMA contract be damned?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 30, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> looks like lower Willoughby before the training hill.  BMA contract be damned?



Thought that they were going to be able to do both at the same time with the new fans and pump?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> looks like lower Willoughby before the training hill.  BMA contract be damned?



I've seen conflicting reports from Q Burke.  Depending on which email you read, they are either opening lower Warren's Way first or they are opening Lower Willoughby first.


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## oldtimer (Nov 30, 2015)

they will want snow on the training hill in order to open it-    no progress as of yesterday.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

Snowmaking stopped at 7:00 pm last night due to water levels.  That's too bad.  They missed a great window last night and this morning.  It's in the teens as I type this.  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 30, 2015)

Really? After what little snow they've made so far? Thought they continually pumped into the pond when snow-making... Well, guess the hope of increased capacity with the new equipment isn't going to show as much improvement as hoped. Maybe with a another phase or two of the planned snow-making upgrades will pay bigger dividends.


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## oldtimer (Nov 30, 2015)

oh boy-   water issues on 30 November-     say it ain't so.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

Here is what it looks like as far as I can tell:

They are following the traditional plan of making snow on Upper Willoughby, cutting over onto Bear's Den, and onto Lower Warren's Way.  This will give them their first top to bottom offering on the main mountain.  As of now, there does not appear to be any snow made on Lower Warren's Way, so they still have some work to do to get a top to bottom trail open.

If history is any indication, once they get that trail set up they will turn their attention to the lower mountain.  They will get just about everything open on the lower mountain before they re-focus on the main hill.  They need High Meadows open in order to connect the hotel with the lower mountain.  They also seem to be convinced that they need the terrain park open for Christmas week, which takes quite a bit of snow.  And of course they need the J-Bar hill open as well.  So with only 25 guns going at a time, it's going to take a while to get the lower mountain set up.

A lot can happen between now and Christmas, including a lot of natural snowfall.  But if we don't see any decent natural snow, and temperatures continue to be warmer than average, my guess is that they won't have more than two top to bottom trails open by Christmas - and quite possibly less than two full top to bottom runs.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this, but it's definitely becoming a real concern.

Keep in mind that Ary promised that we would not see a repeat of last year.  And while I am sympathetic to the issues with the weather, what rubs me the wrong way is that after assuring everyone that snowmaking would improve, I'm just not seeing any improvement to snowmaking capacity.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but if 25 guns at one time is the best they can do, that doesn't seem to be any better than last year.  Maybe they can do better on the lower hill compared to last year.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I just tried to order 20 gift cards as part of their Cyber Monday promotion.  Shipping is $100.
> 
> WTF.



That is hilarious.  Amateur hour continues.  :sigh:


----------



## oldtimer (Nov 30, 2015)

If this were ANY OTHER business I might pull the trigger with a note saying "please do not process if you indeed intend to charge $5/each as opposed to $5/order".  But given these bumblers that would be a HUGE mistake.   Sadly I think they would take the $100 and not give it up w/o a huge fight.   I have indeed been in a pass fight with the Ary crew and lost badly.






thetrailboss said:


> That is hilarious.  Amateur hour continues.  :sigh:


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Snowmaking stopped at 7:00 pm last night due to water levels.  That's too bad.  They missed a great window last night and this morning.  It's in the teens as I type this.


Someone forgot to pump to refill the pond? The river is kind of low but it shouldn't be that bad. :-?
Whats the use of running more than 25 guns if you can't keep water available for them?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

The big question is when will water levels rise to allow snowmaking again.   


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> If this were ANY OTHER business I might pull the trigger with a note saying "please do not process if you indeed intend to charge $5/each as opposed to $5/order".  But given these bumblers that would be a HUGE mistake.   Sadly I think they would take the $100 and not give it up w/o a huge fight.   I have indeed been in a pass fight with the Ary crew and lost badly.



The best part is that this great "deal" is guaranteed to fail.  Perhaps it was meant to fail.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Someone forgot to pump to refill the pond? The river is kind of low but it shouldn't be that bad. :-?
> Whats the use of running more than 25 guns if you can't keep water available for them?



Serious question: do they have anyone left who KNOWS how to operate the system?


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Serious question: do they have anyone left who KNOWS how to operate the system?


I have a hunch that the crew has been thrown in the deep end (or is it the shallow end with no water in the pond). The lack of long time experience up there is disconcerting.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

Here's another concern.  Snowmaking opportunities will be limited at best before opening day.  There is no snow on the lower hill and they have yet to complete a top to bottom run on the main hill.  There is hardly any parking on the main hill.  The only parking lot of any size is at the Sherburne base.   So just to connect sufficient parking to the Mid Burke lift they still need to make a lot of snow.  

I think it's a real possibility that opening day will be pushed back for a second time.  I just don't see how they can get there with only 25 guns available and warm weather coming.


----------



## River19 (Nov 30, 2015)

Weather looks to be mid 30s to mid 40s the next 2 weeks with reasonable temps overnight to allow for some snowmaking.  That is if they can get water and if they can get more than 25 guns going, btw has anyone confirmed they can only run 25 guns?

Right now that weekend of the 11th that is the big hotel opening weekend.....looks like low 40s with showers for 3 days leading up to that Saturday (including 40s and showers on Saturday)........right now that is a tough hand of cards to play with.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here's another concern...  There is hardly any parking on the main hill.  The only parking lot of any size is at the Sherburne base.   So just to connect sufficient parking to the Mid Burke lift they still need to make a lot of snow.


I took a drive up around the mid-Burke area on Friday. There is a beautiful new bridge connecting the 3 1/2 tiered parking area between the groomer maintenance building and the Brookside condos. However, at least 1/3rd (probably closer to 1/2) of the potential parking is taken up by construction office trailers and construction equipment/supplies. Granted the supplies will probably be moved somewhere else by the start of the season but are those office trailers going to be moved anywhere? Right now I would be surprised if there was space for <100 cars up there (not including the 10-20 parking areas in the basement of the hotel).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> Right now that weekend of the 11th that is the big hotel opening weekend.....looks like low 40s with showers for 3 days leading up to that Saturday (including 40s and showers on Saturday)........right now that is a tough hand of cards to play with.



Vouchers to the water park at Jay?:idea:


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

Didn't they said that there won't be much parking (if any) for day visitors at Mid-Burke.  There certainly won't be enough.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

FWIW there are now pics up from the night skiing experiment the other night for the Planning Commission.  Literally like ten people attended.  I am still trying to figure out "who" is going to night ski and ride at Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW there are now pics up from the night skiing experiment the other night for the Planning Commission.  Literally like ten people attended.  I am still trying to figure out "who" is going to night ski and ride at Burke.



Would have been more interested to see what it looked like from off the mtn. Those pics look like they are standing under any random parking lot light.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Would have been more interested to see what it looked like from off the mtn. Those pics look like they are standing under any random parking lot light.



+1. Looks like there is a shot of them on Darling Hill, but no photo of the demo. Q ran out of space on his iPhone. Too much techno music. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

Keep in mind that lights reflecting off of snow will be much brighter than off of grass.


.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Didn't they said that there won't be much parking (if any) for day visitors at Mid-Burke.  There certainly won't be enough.



I was at Mid-Burke yesterday and there is virtually NO parking there - even the reserved BMA spots were totally blocked with construction "stuff"


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I am still trying to figure out "who" is going to night ski and ride at Burke.



Me too.  It didn't work at Stowe and that was on a great 2000+ vert trail.


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## zeke (Nov 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Me too.  It didn't work at Stowe and that was on a great 2000+ vert trail.



this is a total assumption on my part–but I bet last year ary was hanging with the asininely named"Team Beaverkill" and they told him it would be a great idea–that way they could go to the park after work. captain beaverqill not knowing any better and in desperate need of any friend he could get pushed the idea forward.

or night skiing is huge in china and they might get another eb-5 investor–either way seems plausible to me


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## deadheadskier (Nov 30, 2015)

:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

zeke said:


> this is a total assumption on my part–but I bet last year ary was hanging with the asininely named"Team Beaverkill" and they told him it would be a great idea–that way they could go to the park after work. captain beaverqill not knowing any better and in desperate need of any friend he could get pushed the idea forward.
> 
> or night skiing is huge in china and they might get another eb-5 investor–either way seems plausible to me



Looks like this year's team is not named Beaverkill.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like *this year's team is not named Beaverkill*.



What inappropriate & obvious sexual double-entendre did they decide on this season?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> What inappropriate & obvious sexual double-entendre did they decide on this season?



Team Clamkill?


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## halfpintvt (Nov 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Seriously? $5 shipping per card?



FYI, Jay Peak charges $7.00 per card for shipping and handling.

"Once we receive your email a Jay Peak Customer Service representative  will give you a call to confirm the details and process your order.  Please let us know if you don't want us to leave a message or say who's  calling (in case the gift card is a surprise for someone who might  intercept the call/voicemail).

You can also call (802) 988-2611 with questions or to purchase over the phone.
_*Please  note that we require a $7 ($20 for CDN addresses) processing and  shipping fee for all mailed Move Up Gift Card purchases.  This  guarantees delivery and allows us to track packages._
_*Move  Up cards can only be purchased in US funds; we apologize for any  inconvenience. All credit card transactions are processed in US funds."_


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> FYI, Jay Peak charges $7.00 per card for shipping and handling.
> 
> "Once we receive your email a Jay Peak Customer Service representative  will give you a call to confirm the details and process your order.  Please let us know if you don't want us to leave a message or say who's  calling (in case the gift card is a surprise for someone who might  intercept the call/voicemail).
> 
> ...



In their defense I can see that they probably have to insure the envelope and track it because it is the same as sending cash in the mail.  I could see that being an issue.  But why mail a stupid card when you can do this electronically?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 30, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> In their defense I can see that they probably have to insure the envelope and track it because it is the same as sending cash in the mail.  I could see that being an issue.  But why mail a stupid card when you can do this electronically?



Except that you can cancel a lost card.  So it's not at all like mailing cash.  

Most retailers I know charge nothing for shipping gift cards.  The few that do charge very little.  

And not scaling the fee based on the number of cards purchased is just absurd.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Except that you can cancel a lost card.  So it's not at all like mailing cash.
> 
> Most retailers I know charge nothing for shipping gift cards.  The few that do charge very little.
> 
> ...



Honestly I think that they are trying to cover their "other" costs with the stupid handling fees.


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## dlague (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that lights reflecting off of snow will be much brighter than off of grass.
> 
> 
> .



So smart to show lights know in that case 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ironhippy (Nov 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Team Clamkill?



ClamSlam


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Does anyone know if snowmaking has resumed?  If not, they lost a 38-40 hour window in a week that will present with limited opportunities.


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## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

Has anyone validated that 25 gun total?  If so, isn't that a pathetic amount of guns as max concurrent capacity?

Doesn't SR have like 250-300 going at one time?  Granted capacity of each gun is different but a 10X order of magnitude is substantial, right?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone know if snowmaking has resumed?  If not, they lost a 38-40 hour window in a week that will present with limited opportunities.


I don't have a direct view of the ski area side of the mountain. However, I can usually tell when they are making snow due to the cloud/airborne overspray the process produces. I didn't see any of that this morning but it doesn't mean they definitely weren't making snow.



River19 said:


> Has anyone validated that 25 gun total?  If so, isn't that a pathetic amount of guns as max concurrent capacity?
> 
> Doesn't SR have like 250-300 going at one time?  Granted capacity of each gun is different but a 10X order of magnitude is substantial, right?


25 guns at a time is very weak. There have been a lot of conflicting/talk-around answers about the actual capacity to blow snow on the mtn. The new fan guns should be increasing the number. As long as they can get water to them.


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## Gman (Dec 1, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't have a direct view of the ski area side of the mountain. However, I can usually tell when they are making snow due to the cloud/airborne overspray the process produces. I didn't see any of that this morning but it doesn't mean they definitely weren't making snow.
> 
> 
> 25 guns at a time is very weak. There have been a lot of conflicting/talk-around answers about the actual capacity to blow snow on the mtn. The new fan guns should be increasing the number. As long as they can get water to them.



No guns going because they have no water.  According to an inside source.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

River19 said:


> Has anyone validated that 25 gun total?  If so, isn't that a pathetic amount of guns as max concurrent capacity?
> 
> Doesn't SR have like 250-300 going at one time?  Granted capacity of each gun is different but a 10X order of magnitude is substantial, right?



Their own "snowmaking update" emails say how many guns are blowing.  And that number, as disclosed by Q Burke, has been 25.  It will be interesting to see if that number goes up when the fan guns start blowing.  But of course if you have no water to pump...

I heard from an on-mountain source that they will not be opening this coming weekend.  They are now shooting for December 11th.

It will be interesting to see whether or not they will have to run shuttles from the Sherburne lot.


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## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2015)

What a cluster F. they better open for the 11th as the Hotel is opening then right?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2015)

What is the reason they have no water? Fer crying out loud! Ary has had a YEAR to figure this crap out since the last fiasco!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> What is the reason they have no water? Fer crying out loud! Ary has had a YEAR to figure this crap out since the last fiasco!



They draw off of a river.  The state sets standards for water levels.  My understanding is that the state has a monitoring device that triggers when the water goes below a certain level.  I am also told that there has been some "creativity" over the years to keep that section of the river higher, but at the end of the day you can only do so much.

Their snowmaking pond is not that large, which is why they are ultimately at the mercy of the water levels in the river.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

They will clearly blame this pending fiasco on the weather.  And to a certain degree they have a valid argument.  On the other hand, there were promises made that clearly have not been delivered upon.  They promised to upgrade snowmaking so they could fight against the weather much better.  From what I've seen, there have been no meaningful improvements in their ability to lay down snow when Mother Nature is cooperating.  At the end of the day, that's what snowmaking is all about - seizing opportunities to overcome the natural elements.  Burke just can't do that like other ski areas can.


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## farlep99 (Dec 1, 2015)

why would water levels be so low?  it hasn't been particularly dry in the NEK has it?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

farlep99 said:


> why would water levels be so low?  it hasn't been particularly dry in the NEK has it?



In St. Johnsbury, November sees an average of 3.4 inches of precipitation.  This year we had 1.09 inches.
October averages 3.87 inches.  This year we had 2.36 inches.
September was about 2.1 inches above average.


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## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

So they invested in some new guns, didn't significantly upgrade their pump capacity (or did they?) and no one ever thought "hey the one large failure mode we can control is the size of our holding pond and water supply."?

Seriously, can't control the weather, but you can control how much water you stockpile in the off season to feed your guns when the temps allow you to make snow.

What good is a military with tons of new guns but without ammo?  Ineffective would be a word for it.

Without mother Nature cooperating in the 10 days before Christmas, there is an actual possibility of less skiing than last year.  But time will tell.

So what are people going to be doing on the hotel opening weekend?  Wonder what the cancellation policy is.....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

It has been said many times before in this thread: If you want to build a destination resort hotel, you need to make sure that the necessary infrastructure is in place _before_ the hotel opens.  Clearly Ary did not grasp this VERY simple concept.

People are coming to ski, not to stay in a hotel.  You need to make sure that you can deliver a consistent skiing product before you open the hotel.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> People are coming to ski, not to stay in a hotel.  You need to make sure that you can deliver a consistent skiing product before you open the hotel.



The hotel was built with "free" money.    And "free" money alleviates a business (at least temporarily) of the horrible burden (sarcasm) of making rational, responsible, intelligent financial (and other) decisions.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

:roll:

OK, the joke is over.  Please bring Bobby Ginn back.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2015)

Well, by the looks of the radar, Mother nature is sending a little help for the pond and river. Hope it's enough to get things running again.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2015)

...And I agree. They should have been looking at, and applying for permits to enlarge the pond, and perhaps add others. Especially while all the heavy equipment is there anyhow. Seems like cheap no-brainer.


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## oldtimer (Dec 1, 2015)

looks warm and mostly dry for at least 2 more weeks.  Where are the folks who understood how to keep the pond full?  oh yea, driven away by unbridled arrogance and incompetence.....................    i could go on, but I need to go back to work so I can afford lift tickets at other hills while I wait to use my expensive season pass.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Dang... the long term forecast looks horrible.  If they can pull off a December 11th opening, it looks like there is a very good chance that they will have to run shuttles from Sherburne.  

The big question is whether or not they have enough snow already made on the parts of the mountain that currently have snow.  If not, it will be all they can do to open by December 11th.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

This is interesting...

Earlier this morning I was able to pull up several room categories that were available for the night of December 11th.

As of now nothing comes up.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Some quotes for your enjoyment taken from here:
http://qburke.com/blog/sample-blog-entry/

"This new pump station will ensure more trails will be open earlier in a typical season, which is good news for our season pass holders and guests of the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center." said Bill Stenger, general partner of the new facility that is scheduled to open this December.

"Our skiers and riders will appreciate this first phase as it will allow us to open earlier and with more terrain." said Quiros.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> ...And I agree. They should have been looking at, and applying for permits to enlarge the pond, and perhaps add others. Especially while all the heavy equipment is there anyhow. Seems like cheap no-brainer.



They won't because (a) they are not smart enough to figure out that they need to add a pond, and (b) since it can't be funded by free money they won't do it.  Sad because they really do need to step up their snowmaking.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Some quotes for your enjoyment taken from here:
> http://qburke.com/blog/sample-blog-entry/
> 
> "This new pump station will ensure more trails will be open earlier in a typical season, which is good news for our season pass holders and guests of the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center." said Bill Stenger, general partner of the new facility that is scheduled to open this December.
> ...



Yeah I don't think that Bill said that or checked it because he is not a "general partner" of the mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Some quotes for your enjoyment taken from here:
> http://qburke.com/blog/sample-blog-entry/
> 
> "This new pump station will ensure more trails will be open earlier in a typical season, which is good news for our season pass holders and guests of the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center." said Bill Stenger, general partner of the new facility that is scheduled to open this December.
> ...



Yeah I don't think that Bill said that or checked it because he is not a "general partner" of the mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I don't think that Bill said that or checked it because he is not a "general partner" of the mountain.



The press release referred to him being a general partner of the hotel, not the mountain.  


.


----------



## zeke (Dec 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I don't think that Bill said that or checked it because he is not a "general partner" of the mountain.



i think he'd say anything to keep the money flowing and the construction going. and why check for accuracy of reporting when you're gonna want plausible deniability in the future when the truth becomes obvious?

is there anything either quiros (sr or jr, pick one) or stenger could say that anyone should believe anymore? especially when it comes to burke mtn?


----------



## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The press release referred to him being a general partner of the hotel, not the mountain.
> 
> 
> .



You mean the hotel without any activities except possibly a gym and pool?  as in, there will be no skiing available.....

This is like a Monty Python skit.......like the trojan rabbit....

"...and the new guns will give us more capacity to get the slopes open earlier...."

"That is brilliant !!!  what is the snow made of sir?"

"It's made of water you dummy."

"OK sir, but if the snow you want to shoot from the new guns is made from water, where will we get the water?"

"From the holding pond right over there....."

[Insert picture of dry pond with pipes]

"Oh......crap......."


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2015)

River19 said:


> So they invested in some new guns, didn't significantly upgrade their pump capacity (or did they?) and no one ever thought "hey the one large failure mode we can control is the size of our holding pond and water supply."?



The snow making pond is just under an acre in size and 3-4' deep (according to sources). Just for the hell of it, I figured out the size of other snowmaking ponds around the state. I may have combined too many ponds and missed some here and there but the result is pretty stark. Of course depth plays a factor as well but I don't figure that too many ponds are shallower than Burke's. This would be the second time in two years that snowmaking has been majorly restricted by low water in the Passumpsic. A new large holding pond over on Dashney Rd sounds like a good idea to me.



SKI AREA NAMEPond Area (Acres)Okemo Total (2 ponds)25.200Stratton16.313Sugarbush Total (2 ponds)12.487Sugarbush South-Main11.941Stowe10.796Mt Snow8.781Killington Total (2 ponds)7.746Bromley4.542Smuggs Total (2 ponds)4.122Haystack3.544Jay Peak3.418Pico Total (2 ponds)2.227Magic1.949Bolton Total (3 ponds)1.838*QBurke Mtn**0.927*Middlebury Total (2 ponds)0.903Ascutney0.656Sugarbush North0.546


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## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

A one acre "pond" that is 3-4' deep?

Seems more like a holding puddle.....

I assume it is 3-4' at full capacity, I bet normally it is 2-3' deep......


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## zeke (Dec 1, 2015)

i know a lot of people on here have taken a "something had to change" position with the old management team. but they didn't seem to have these kinds of snowmaking/water issues and could put out a decent product for x-mas week. and that's without the supposed upgrades to snowmaking they've claimed the last two seasons.

seems to me jr got his early mantra of "doing more with less" flipped and he's actually "doing less with more" than the previous team.

unless, of course, the less he was referring to was knowledge and experience. if that's the case, i'm not sure what the more is?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

I always thought that the Pond as deeper than that.  And, FWIW, that list is a bit deceiving because both Burke and Sugarbush North's ponds are refilled from other sources.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

zeke said:


> i know a lot of people on here have taken a "something had to change" position with the old management team. but they didn't seem to have these kinds of snowmaking/water issues and could put out a decent product for x-mas week. and that's without the supposed upgrades to snowmaking they've claimed the last two seasons.
> 
> seems to me jr got his early mantra of "doing more with less" flipped and he's actually "doing less with more" than the previous team.
> 
> unless, of course, the less he was referring to was knowledge and experience. if that's the case, i'm not sure what the more is?



+ 1.  Hence my comment about bringing Ginn back!


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## Gman (Dec 1, 2015)

QB FB page now says they are confident that they will be open for skiing/riding no later that 12/18.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

That explains the hotel rooms being pulled.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

Gman said:


> QB FB page now says they are confident that they will be open for skiing/riding no later that 12/18.



That is until this time next week when they don't have any water (still)....


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## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That explains the hotel rooms being pulled.
> 
> 
> .



what about the ones that were already booked or was the booking so low it doesn't matter anyway?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> what about the ones that were already booked or was the booking so low it doesn't matter anyway?



My guess is that they are offering refunds.  Just a guess, though.  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2015)

> Water levels are back and we are pumping to replenish the snow making  pond.  We anticipate firing back up the system this evening and will  continue to make snow as long as we can.  The gameplan will be to finish  the summit trails (Upper/Lower Willoughby and Upper Bear Den), then  move to the Warrens Way training hill to get BMA online.  With that  being said and to avoid any additional false hope, we feel confident we  will be opening for skiing and riding no later than Friday, December  18th.  We will do our best to get open prior to that and will continue  to keep everyone posted.



I wonder how long they can blow snow without filling the pond simultaneously.


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## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My guess is that they are offering refunds.  Just a guess, though.
> 
> 
> .



I thought the Q Checkbook only worked one way?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Some thoughts:

1) The first night that I am finding availability at the hotel is January 15th.  Make of that what you will.

2) I appreciate their candor about when they believe they can get the mountain open.  Unfortunately, if they can only open by December 18th, this pretty much guarantees that there will be very little terrain open for Christmas week unless there is natural snow.  

3) Ironically, warm weather is going to be Burke's best friend for a while.  Why?  Well, what pissed people off last year was just how far behind the curve Burke was for the Christmas week.  Trail counts don't lie (so long as you account for trail count inflation), and Burke's trail count was AWFUL.  If NOBODY can make snow, Burke won't look as bad as they looked last year when it had more to do with the fact that they couldn't keep up with the competition.  But this is just kicking the can down the road.  When snowmaking weather returns the competition will increase trail counts MUCH faster than Burke will be able to.  

4) It would be a good gesture if they allowed Burke-only passholders to ski at Jay until Burke opens.  I would normally say "too bad" for those who didn't pay extra for the Jay Peak add-on, but people bought Burke passes with the understanding that snowmaking would be improved.  Burke failed to deliver on their promise, even if the weather has been warm, so this would be a good gesture to make up for their gaffe.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

Here is a chart showing the river levels at the closest location I could find to the ski resort:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

I went back and looked at some previous posts in this thread when they were having so many problems with snowmaking last year.  A lot of Q Burke's Facebook posts/comments were quoted.  Many of those posts/comments have since been deleted on Facebook by Q Burke.  But they are preserved here.

In post #2700, I quoted a comment that Burke made on their Facebook page.  Part of that comment was this: 
"According to our "masters of snow" our HDK guns can produce 15 gpm of snow at 26F, 30 gpm at 22F, and 50 gpm at 18F. Again, keeping in mind that we are at "full" capacity with 30 guns running at a time."

Burke's own snowmaking updates this year have said that they are running 25 guns at a time.  So I ask, where is the improvement in snowmaking?  You know... the promised improvements?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I always thought that the Pond as deeper than that.  And, FWIW, that list is a bit deceiving because both Burke and Sugarbush North's ponds are refilled from other sources.


All ponds are filled from some source or another. And when that other source doesn't have enough water to refill the pond, you are screwed. Having a bigger pond that can be filled to stockpile water when the levels from the source are high (see Nov 21st above) can be important.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I went back and looked at some previous posts in this thread when they were having so many problems with snowmaking last year.  A lot of Q Burke's Facebook posts/comments were quoted.  Many of those posts/comments have since been deleted on Facebook by Q Burke.  But they are preserved here.
> 
> In post #2700, I quoted a comment that Burke made on their Facebook page.  Part of that comment was this:
> "According to our "masters of snow" our HDK guns can produce 15 gpm of snow at 26F, 30 gpm at 22F, and 50 gpm at 18F. Again, keeping in mind that we are at "full" capacity with 30 guns running at a time."
> ...



As I noted, the "improvements" were to pumping more water instead of more air.  They need more of the latter.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> All ponds are filled from some source or another. And when that other source doesn't have enough water to refill the pond, you are screwed. Having a bigger pond that can be filled to stockpile water when the levels from the source are high (see Nov 21st above) can be important.



Right, but I mean that both ponds get water pumped into them from a river or another storage area.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My guess is that they are offering refunds.  Just a guess, though.
> 
> 
> .



I HIGHLY doubt that they are giving money back; probably just giving folks a voucher to come stay another time.


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## River19 (Dec 1, 2015)

OK so based on their own FB posts from last year, the guns they had then produced 15 gpm at 26 degrees and it increases a lot as temps drop......and for the next 2 weeks they are looking at OVERNIGHT lows in the 25-32 degree range and during the day above freezing with some rain mixed in.  Doesn't sound like the cards are stacked in the favor of great snow making going on the next 2 weeks heading to 12/18......but who knows.......

To VTK's point above, they were running 30 guns last year......25 guns this year so far......is there any chance they are running more efficient guns this year......? or is it most likely the same stuff they have had.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

That's a good point.  Snowmaking is not binary.  For the foreseeable future, a small scale system is going to be operating at it's least efficient levels.

As for the 25 guns versus 30 guns, I recall hearing that they can add a few more guns when they are blowing snow lower on the mountain.  Since the snowmaking to date has been on the upper mountain, this might explain the difference.  But the critical point is that they haven't improved over last year, despite assurances that they would.

There has been a decent amount of ra*n today, so at least the river levels should improve.

In other news, I know of someone who won a free weekend at the hotel as part of an earlier promotion.  Their reservation was pushed back from the 12th to the 19th.  I'm not sure if this is because the hotel itself won't be open, or if it's because they wanted skiing to be available.  Either way, it was the mountain that pushed their reservation back.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 1, 2015)

Can they not run the new fan guns and the air/water at the same time? Wasn't that the point of adding a new booster water pump for the upper mountain?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Can they not run the new fan guns and the air/water at the same time? Wasn't that the point of adding a new booster water pump for the upper mountain?



They can if they have enough water...


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2015)

Here is the discharge at the East Haven monitoring station about 2 miles upstream from Burke's intake. You can see the levels are well below median flow for this time of year.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 1, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Can they not run the new fan guns and the air/water at the same time? Wasn't that the point of adding a new booster water pump for the upper mountain?



It appears that what they have done so far has been confined to the top part of the mtn, above the training hill. This would be where they probably felt they could blow snow early and have it last long enough that they wouldn't have to blow a lot more there after the most recent warmup. No point in firing up the fan guns if they don't think the snow they are making will stick around. However, as we have all been pointing out, it is moot unless the system has a reliable water source.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

It looks like the days of the iPhone videos may be coming to an end:
https://recruiting.myapps.paychex.c...&SearchScreenID=2770&CountryID=3&LanguageID=2


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It looks like the days of the iPhone videos may be coming to an end:
> https://recruiting.myapps.paychex.c...&SearchScreenID=2770&CountryID=3&LanguageID=2



....and judging by the sidebar they have almost every job available.


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## burski (Dec 1, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It appears that what they have done so far has been confined to the top part of the mtn, above the training hill. This would be where they probably felt they could blow snow early and have it last long enough that they wouldn't have to blow a lot more there after the most recent warmup. No point in firing up the fan guns if they don't think the snow they are making will stick around. However, as we have all been pointing out, it is moot unless the system has a reliable water source.



The problem they are having with making snow with only 25 guns has nothing to do with water, it is the compressed air where they are falling short.  Burke used to rent 4 + diesel compressors in the past, which provided the air capacity to run well over 60 guns depending on ambient temps. When they built the hotel they got rid of their compressor parking area as well as diesel storage tank.  They can no longer rent compressors and therefore have to rely on the one electric compressor that was installed several years ago.  Unfortunately this does not have the capacity of the diesels it replaced.  The former operators where aware of this and always intended to continue to rent additional diesel, capacity if only for a month early season.  None of the new operators seem to understand this simple fact.  With all the new fan guns running, today's capacity may be equal to that of five years ago, unfortunately those fans can only produce on one trail, so their effective snowmaking power is much less than it was several years ago.


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## halfpintvt (Dec 1, 2015)

The Burke Mountain Facebook page says that they are drawing up water from the river to replenish the holding pond.
Judging from these numbers, that would appear to be true. Since it's still raining in Burke and has been since late this afternoon I would expect the gauge station #'s to be rising but instead they are falling. I'm assuming this is because of the Mountain.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 1, 2015)

burski said:


> The problem they are having with making snow with only 25 guns has nothing to do with water, it is the compressed air where they are falling short.  Burke used to rent 4 + diesel compressors in the past, which provided the air capacity to run well over 60 guns depending on ambient temps. When they built the hotel they got rid of their compressor parking area as well as diesel storage tank.  They can no longer rent compressors and therefore have to rely on the one electric compressor that was installed several years ago.  Unfortunately this does not have the capacity of the diesels it replaced.



Good point.  The electric compressor has only 40% of the capacity of the rented diesel compressors.  And this is a problem they were well aware of last year.  Under Ary, the ability to make snow has been significantly reduced.  But this is a guy who claims to know how to run a northeastern ski area.   


.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 1, 2015)

burski said:


> The problem they are having with making snow with only 25 guns has nothing to do with water, it is the compressed air where they are falling short.  Burke used to rent 4 + diesel compressors in the past, which provided the air capacity to run well over 60 guns depending on ambient temps. When they built the hotel they got rid of their compressor parking area as well as diesel storage tank.  They can no longer rent compressors and therefore have to rely on the one electric compressor that was installed several years ago.  Unfortunately this does not have the capacity of the diesels it replaced.  The former operators where aware of this and always intended to continue to rent additional diesel, capacity if only for a month early season.  None of the new operators seem to understand this simple fact.  With all the new fan guns running, today's capacity may be equal to that of five years ago, unfortunately those fans can only produce on one trail, so their effective snowmaking power is much less than it was several years ago.



They'd probably only need 2 or 3 now with the low e-guns. I know K significantly lowered the number of diesel compressors they leased last year.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2015)

burski said:


> The problem they are having with making snow with only 25 guns has nothing to do with water, it is the compressed air where they are falling short.  Burke used to rent 4 + diesel compressors in the past, which provided the air capacity to run well over 60 guns depending on ambient temps. When they built the hotel they got rid of their compressor parking area as well as diesel storage tank.  They can no longer rent compressors and therefore have to rely on the one electric compressor that was installed several years ago.  Unfortunately this does not have the capacity of the diesels it replaced.  The former operators where aware of this and always intended to continue to rent additional diesel, capacity if only for a month early season.  None of the new operators seem to understand this simple fact.  With all the new fan guns running, today's capacity may be equal to that of five years ago, unfortunately those fans can only produce on one trail, so their effective snowmaking power is much less than it was several years ago.



A number of us (probably you too) pointed this out last season.  I love how they crowed about the new pumping capacity....which is not doing anything to fix their problem.  If I had to bet the consultants told them that they need more air but because Q is omniscient omnipotent he ignored them and did what he wanted (and what was cheaper).


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

There is an article in today's Caledonian Record about the delayed opening.

Here is a gem of a quote:
"Stenger reported Tuesday the additional guns and system are working great and the resort is excited about the added snowmaking capacity."

Apparently it doesn't take much to excite them.

Here is the snowmaking plan:
"After we finish the summit trails (Upper/Lower Willoughby and Upper Bear Den) we do have to move to the Warren’s Way training hill to get BMA online before we move to lower bear den and then midway connector for public access.”

It appears that the hotel opening has been delayed as well.


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

So who took the over on the over/under on the 12/11 date?  

The "Burke Mountain Real Estate Marketing Team" has been quiet this week.

If Burski is right (and I have no reason to believe he is incorrect) that is pathetic, and that quote in the Caledonian Record is at best totally clueless and at worst disingenuous.  "Excited"?  For shit that isn't working since you did nothing to increase the holding pond capacity?  And at best you have roughly the same amount of snow making capacity as 5 years ago? If that is "Progress", then I stepped in a pile of progress this morning with the dogs.....


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> So who took the over on the over/under on the 12/11 date?
> 
> The "Burke Mountain Real Estate Marketing Team" has been quiet this week.



Yes where is Masskier?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> So who took the over on the over/under on the 12/11 date?


Huh?  Ary said that they would open on Thanksgiving weekend this year!  If all goes as planned he will only miss the mark by three or four weeks.  

Burke does not have a pod that they can get open.  They have a top-to-bottom lift, so they need a top-to-bottom trail in order to open.  The way I see it, they can only blow snow on about 25% (or at best 33%) of a top-to-bottom run at any given time.  This means that while other areas are blowing snow on an entire top-to-bottom run, Burke needs three or four times longer to get the same thing done.  Nobody can take such an inadequate system seriously, especially since we know that Ary actually cut snowmaking capacity.  He chose to go from marginal to downright pathetic.   

But this is nothing new.  We've been having this same discussion for at least three years in a row.  But Ary knows best...

For some good news, I just checked the river level.  Thanks to the recent rainfall it has swollen almost as much as Ary's ego.


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

VTK, on 12/11 over/under I was talking Hotel Opening....sorry I should have been more specific....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> VTK, on 12/11 over/under I was talking Hotel Opening....sorry I should have been more specific....



Ah... good point.  I would have bet a lot of money on the over, that's for sure.

But look at the bright side.  Construction at AnC Bio is coming along nicely.  QAviation is pumping out airplanes at a fast pace.  And Newport has a beautiful new building downtown.  All is good!


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ah... good point.  I would have bet a lot of money on the over, that's for sure.
> 
> But look at the bright side.  Construction at AnC Bio is coming along nicely.  QAviation is pumping out airplanes at a fast pace.  And Newport has a beautiful new building downtown.  All is good!



An that is some funny sarcasm for this morning.....I like it.

And everyone wants to buy a condo on a mountain which is fully "skiable" from Mid January through March right?  Never mind that it is like 40 miles from Canada, no way to get those trails open earlier each year.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

I have some good news.  Now that the river levels are back up, I took a trip up to the mountain and saw the snowmaking crew blowing some mice out of the system.  The improvements to the snowmaking system are looking great!  Stenger is not the only one who is excited.  Add me to the list!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

The third one is hilarious!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The third one is hilarious!



I was a little embarrassed taking photos, so I didn't ask who it was.  I think it's Ary and their marketing director Jessica.  

The thing I'm looking forward to the most this year is the new "Learn to ski with Ary Sr.!" promotion that is taking place on Wednesday afternoons.  They managed to sneak in a lesson on the upper mountain last week even though the mountain was not fully open.  Ary Sr. is just so excited that he made it happen.  My kids had a blast.  Here is a photo from their lesson:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

The last photo I was able to snap was a test of a new groomer that was designed by Q Jr. himself.  He is truly a visionary.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

burski said:


> The problem they are having with making snow with only 25 guns *has nothing to do with water*, it is the compressed air where they are falling short.  Burke used to rent 4 + diesel compressors in the past, which provided the air capacity to run well over 60 guns depending on ambient temps. When they built the hotel they got rid of their compressor parking area as well as diesel storage tank.  They can no longer rent compressors and therefore have to rely on the one electric compressor that was installed several years ago.  Unfortunately this does not have the capacity of the diesels it replaced.  The former operators where aware of this and always intended to continue to rent additional diesel, capacity if only for a month early season.  None of the new operators seem to understand this simple fact.  With all the new fan guns running, today's capacity may be equal to that of five years ago, unfortunately those fans can only produce on one trail, so their effective snowmaking power is much less than it was several years ago.



What good is a whole bunch more compressed air if you have no water? 
I know that there are shortcomings in the capacity of the system for being able to run a lot of guns at the same time (we've all been over this ad nauseam for a couple of years now :roll. 

Guess what. Those new fan guns don't need compressed air, yet they have barely been turned on. Why? Probably because they knew they were going to be short on water and by turning on the fan guns they would have sucked the pond dry even quicker leaving only a thin blanket spread out across a large elevation range that would have all melted by now.

Below is the East Branch discharge graph for the last month. I'd be willing to bet the cut off for pumping is somewhere around the 50-60cfs line. The river has been hovering around that level almost all month other than a few windows during rain events. 

Let me use some numbers to explain why they need a MUCH larger water storage capacity:

1 acre ft of water = 325,851 gallons
Burke's pond = roughly 1 acre at the surface. With and AVERAGE depth of 3.5 feet (I think it is 5 feet deep at the deepest spot.
3.5' x 325851 = 1,140,478 gallons
Say we pick a nice round number like 1000gal/minute that can be pumped up the mountain and turned into snow. That gives the system 1140 minutes or *19 hours* of snow making capability using water from the pond alone. Even if you cut the gal/minute being turned into snow in half, you still drain the pond in less than two days. 

I figure they need to be able to have at least a 5 day water reserve that can be replenished during the spikes in river discharge.

Note: The downward spike in discharge on Sunday-Monday (Nov 29-30th) was caused by surface water freezing up in the cold temps.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Say we pick a nice round number like 1000gal/minute that can be pumped up the mountain and turned into snow. That gives the system 1140 minutes or *19 hours* of snow making capability using water from the pond alone. Even if you cut the gal/minute being turned into snow in half, you still drain the pond in less than two days.


Their Mid-Burke pump is rated 2,200 gallons per minute.  If they used it to its full capacity (do they have enough compressed air to do this?) it would drain the pond 2.2 times faster than your original estimate.  But remember, everyone is excited!

The only issue I would take with your calculations is that during an average year the river should be plenty high enough to make snow.  What we have seen this year is definitely an anomaly.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Their Mid-Burke pump is rated 2,200 gallons per minute.  If they used it to its full capacity (do they have enough compressed air to do this?) it would drain the pond 2.2 times faster than your original estimate.  But remember, everyone is excited!
> 
> The only issue I would take with your calculations is that during an average year the river should be plenty high enough to make snow.



They also ran into river discharge level problems last winter after everything was mostly frozen up. And it is pretty well known that the water extraction from the river has many times been run at the very edge of the limit. Why keep gambling on something like that?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> They also ran into river discharge level problems last winter after everything was mostly frozen up. And it is pretty well known that the water extraction from the river has many times been run at the very edge of the limit. Why keep gambling on something like that?



Good point.  You chart does not show river level averages in December and January once things freeze up.  It stands to reason that the river levels are much more likely to be lower during that time of year.

And with the hotel, you are correct that they should not depend on the river for snowmaking.  You are seeing at least one week of lost revenue this year because of it.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point.  You chart does not show river level averages in December and January once things freeze up. .


That is graph of the conditions for the last month. Most of Dec and Jan haven't happened yet. However, if you go here:
http://nwis.waterdata.usgs.gov/vt/n...od=&begin_date=2014-12-01&end_date=2015-02-28

You can enter a date range to create graphs of historical flow levels. The median discharge starts dropping pretty significantly around Dec 10. Bottoming out in late February around 45cfs.
During the late thaw at the end of December last year and the resulting freezup left Burke with one last pond full of water and once that was dry they couldn't pump any more to make snow to recover fully from the thaw. Having a larger pond would have allowed them to stockpile water to protect them in that scenario.


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

So all this is just a big pile of poop from my perspective.

All summer I tried to remain skeptical but positive and give them the benefit of the doubt with regards to getting the hotel done, open, contractors paid etc.  In August, 12/11 seemed so far away and like they had plenty of time.

The thing that was evidently completely under the radar for me was that despite chest bumping, ego stroking, pass-holder BSing about snow making improvements.  They really didn't do shit to address any of the real issues and/or made such poor decisions along the way that they are unbelievably in a worse place than before.

So they bought fan guns......woo hoo.....without addressing the lack of air pressure and most of all WATER supply and  rolling the dice on the river providing "Just in Time" delivery of constant water supply they rendered it all relatively useless.

Who gives a shit about a hotel being available and open if the skiing sucks donkey rump?  Why would everyone drive past all the other areas to stay in said hotel and hammer the handful of trails they might have open at some time in later December?  How is this going to help the economy of the region in December?  You have a 4-5 month season st best and so far piss poor planning has already killed 20% of that right out of the gate......

Very disappointing.

But, everyone is excited....and condo owners must be thrilled they have a few more weeks of hiking available to them on dirt paths with no snow.....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> So all this is just a big pile of poop from my perspective.


I think that you are being a little harsh.  I was able to get a photo of the snowmaking pond this morning and it has filled back in very nicely. Their new marketing director was out personally measuring the depth and encouraging the snowmaking team to get back to work.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

5 days of pond capacity to allow pumping at 2200gal/min around the clock = 15,840,000 gallons

15,840,000 gallons = a 48 acre pond at 1 an average of foot deep. 
9.7 acres at an average of 5' deep.
8 acres at 6' deep.

That would be the ultimate cover the worst case scenario for river discharge.

More realistically a 8-10 million gallon pond would likely suffice.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

Wait... Aren't memes my thing? :lol:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

Everyone else also get their daily/hourly FB feed from the Q offering 30% Winter Holidays?

So let me get this straight.....I can pay 70% of the full price for 30% of the mountain being open?  Shouldn't it be 70% off?

Why don't we just price room rates at what % of the trails are actually open?  Perhaps then they might get their shit together on the ancient formula of making snow.....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> So let me get this straight.....I can pay 70% of the full price for 30% of the mountain being open?  Shouldn't it be 70% off?


If they have to rely on snowmaking there is no way 30% of the mountain will be open by Christmas.


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## billski (Dec 2, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Right now I would be surprised if there was space for <100 cars up there (not including the 10-20 parking areas in the basement of the hotel).


  That shouldn't pose a parking problem.  Unlikely even that will fill up.


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## billski (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If they have to rely on snowmaking there is no way 30% of the mountain will be open by Christmas.



VTK, you are on a roll today!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

VTK has beaten me to the Memes this morning....I have some in mind....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

There is at least some good news.  They are making a lot of contingency plans in case they don't have snow for the Christmas break.  A friend of mine who works on the mountain leaked to me a photo of the terrain park that Ary just designed as insurance against a lack of snow.  That's Patrick Bradley, their Events Coordinator, testing it out.


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## billski (Dec 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> ....and judging by the sidebar they have almost every job available.


*Resort Visual Specialist = Picture-taker?*


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

billski said:


> VTK, you are on a roll today!



Honestly, I'm just having fun.  It's one of those things that you just have to laugh about at this point.  Anything else will just depress me.


----------



## billski (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> Everyone else also get their daily/hourly FB feed from the Q offering 30% Winter Holidays?
> 
> So let me get this straight.....I can pay 70% of the full price for 30% of the mountain being open?  Shouldn't it be 70% off?
> 
> Why don't we just price room rates at what % of the trails are actually open?  Perhaps then they might get their shit together on the ancient formula of making snow.....




Math does not seem to be their strong suit.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)




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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Yes where is Masskier?





via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

OK, enough for now.  It does suck that this year was very dry in Vermont.  On my visit in October the rivers were VERY low.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)




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## burski (Dec 2, 2015)

"from_the_NEK" your a bit off on a lot of your assumptions - the State of VT allows ski areas to withdraw water from rivers when the river flow is above the February Median Flow avg - if the Feb median flow is 45 cfs as you state than there is no reason Q cannot withdraw from the Passumpsic over the past few weeks.  The likely problem is they have issues with their river pump station which I would expect, since they have no employees with any experience that understand what it takes to complete preventive maintenance and do the necessary testing to make sure the system is ready to go when needed.  It is very convenient of them to blame it on the river rather than not doing proper preseason maintenance (this is my assumption, not fact).  historically the passumpsic has been one of the most reliable rivers in the State of VT hence burke never had to build a large snowmaking pond in the past.  So unless this year is one of the worst drought years in VT history then the river level is likely fine (unless it is currently below the Feb median flow).  Water supply has almost never been an issue for Burke in the past two decades but for the past two years now this is a problem?? This does not make any sense.  

Would building a bigger pond be a worthwhile investment?  Definitely, but historically the Passumpsic has been extremely reliable through late January when snowmaking typically slows down significantly anyway.  And FWIW, the pond is significantly deeper than 4-5 feet - I believe it holds 3-4 million gallons.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

burski said:


> "from_the_NEK" your a bit off on a lot of your assumptions - the State of VT allows ski areas to withdraw water from rivers when the river flow is above the February Median Flow avg - if the Feb median flow is 45 cfs as you state than there is no reason Q cannot withdraw from the Passumpsic over the past few weeks.  The likely problem is they have issues with their river pump station which I would expect, since they have no employees with any experience that understand what it takes to complete preventive maintenance and do the necessary testing to make sure the system is ready to go when needed.  It is very convenient of them to blame it on the river rather than not doing proper preseason maintenance (this is my assumption, not fact).  historically the passumpsic has been one of the most reliable rivers in the State of VT hence burke never had to build a large snowmaking pond in the past.  So unless this year is one of the worst drought years in VT history then the river level is likely fine (unless it is currently below the Feb median flow).  Water supply has almost never been an issue for Burke in the past two decades but for the past two years now this is a problem?? This does not make any sense.
> 
> Would building a bigger pond be a worthwhile investment?  Definitely, but historically the Passumpsic has been extremely reliable through late January when snowmaking typically slows down significantly anyway.  And FWIW, the pond is significantly deeper than 4-5 feet - I believe it holds 3-4 million gallons.



I think you touch on two key points--one is lack of historical working knowledge a company has from its staff and the second is lack of preventative maintenance.  I know that the second one is an issue in other areas of the mountain.


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## zeke (Dec 2, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> OK, enough for now.  It does suck that this year was very dry in Vermont.  On my visit in October the rivers were VERY low.



the new over/under be should be when the first time the dry fall is used as an excuse for lackluster snowmaking


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

zeke said:


> the new over/under be should be when the first time the dry fall is used as an excuse for lackluster snowmaking



Or the warm weather.  I can't believe they haven't used that.


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

Pics of skiing on Sugarloaf and Mt Snow have been rolling in this morning......been warm all over.....just sayin......


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

According to the graph found here;
http://nwis.waterdata.usgs.gov/vt/n...od=&begin_date=2014-12-01&end_date=2015-02-28

The February median is roughly around 50cfs. The river dropped below that level 3 times in November. 






And the pond may be deeper than an average of 3.5 feet, I'm just going from what I've heard. If it actually holds 3-4 million gallons it would have to average 9.2 to 12.2 feet deep.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> Pics of skiing on Sugarloaf and Mt Snow have been rolling in this morning......been warm all over.....just sayin......



Trust me....I saw those pics and LOVED them.  I also wanted to get after my other home Sugarbush for their pathetic snowmaking efforts in comparison.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2015)

anyone got a pic of the pond in it's current state?


Crotched's pond runs out fairly routinely to start the season and they have to suspend snowmaking operations.  I don't believe they have the ability to pump from a river.  It fills up fairly fast with a bit of rain.  Once they get the base down on 100 acres, it no longer becomes an issue.

I'm just pointing this out to hopefully be optimistic for the Burke crew.  Crotched is known for great snowmaking and while it's only 100 acres of terrain, I'm guessing Burke's snowmaking coverage is what? 150 acres with the rest being natural snow trails and glades to round out their acreage?

Now the key difference is that Crotched can light up the whole place with who knows how many fan guns.  The story I've been told is they once fired up all of them one night to see if they could do it and the local electric utility called them and said if they don't turn some of the system off, they might cause a local brown out.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

zeke said:


> the new over/under be should be when the first time the dry fall is used as an excuse for lackluster snowmaking



Someone read your comment:



> Water levels are back to normal and we began pumping water and refilling the snow making pond late yesterday afternoon to replenish our water supply. Forecast is calling for 1-3 inches of natural snow with the low tonight only getting to 28 degrees.  Temperatures fall throughout the day tomorrow and we will fire back up the system and add to the accumulation with snow making.  Our gameplan will be to finish the upper mountain (Upper/Lower Willoughby and Upper Bear Den) then move to Warren's Way training hill to get BMA online.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Now the key difference is that Crotched can light up the whole place with who knows how many fan guns.


This is the problem.  Burke can only seem to muster 25 or 30 guns at any given time.  This means that when snowmaking conditions exist, the rest of the competition is blowing Burke out of the water.  What we are going to see is Burke limping along when cold weather returns, gradually getting just a few trails open over the course of about three weeks of snowmaking.  They will get trails open at a fraction of the pace that other hills will get them open.

Whether the problem is water or compressed air, Burke just doesn't have enough of what they need.  This is mostly because Ary made a strategic decision to eliminate compressed air capacity.  The water was just bad luck (if it's indeed true), whereas the lack of compressed air was intentional.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> anyone got a pic of the pond in it's current state?
> 
> 
> Crotched's pond runs out fairly routinely to start the season and they have to suspend snowmaking operations.  I don't believe they have the ability to pump from a river.  It fills up fairly fast with a bit of rain.  Once they get the base down on 100 acres, it no longer becomes an issue.
> ...



And Crotched Mtn has over 3 acres of pond. However, who knows what the total volume of water is.

My guess is that most mtns that have a serious snow making operation have at least 5 million gallons of water in a pond.


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## Big Wave Dave (Dec 2, 2015)

god you guys are all serial complainers. Half of the Vermont ski areas arent open yet. We had one of the driest, warmest falls ever. Its amazing to me the amount of time some of you invest in complaining. If I had as negative opinions as alot of you, whether warranted or not, I wouldnt think of skiing at burke.  

long story short one thing matters- having terrain open for xmas week. Everything else is window dressing. 

One question I do have as clearly some of the people posting on here are way more familiar with the ski industry and what Buirke did than I am- what did they actually spend the $1mil on as stated in the Cal Record- and, why couldnt they rent another compressor/ I recall seeing these in the past and cant imagine they could not find the space if they were pressed.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> god you guys are all serial complainers. Half of the Vermont ski areas arent open yet. We had one of the driest, warmest falls ever. Its amazing to me the amount of time some of you invest in complaining. If I had as negative opinions as alot of you, whether warranted or not, I wouldnt think of skiing at burke.


You have to understand that there is a lot of history here.  Nobody is complaining about the impact weather has had on snowmaking operations.  The complaints are about the state of the system itself, including broken promises that have been made about improving the system.  The bottom line is that the snowmaking capability is worse than it's been in a LONG time, and this was intentional.  Yet we hear leadership say that they are "excited" by their system in its present state.  



Big Wave Dave said:


> long story short one thing matters- having terrain open for xmas week. Everything else is window dressing.


 And this is where Burke has failed over the last two years, and will fail this year.  They simply can't get terrain open like they used to be able to.  Last year the only New England ski areas over 1,000 vertical feet that had fewer trails open during Christmas were Dartmouth Skiway and Middlebury (if memory serves me correctly).  But leadership is "excited" by what they see - even though they will be at the bottom of the trail count list again this year.



Big Wave Dave said:


> One question I do have as clearly some of the people posting on here are way more familiar with the ski industry and what Burke did than I am- what did they actually spend the $1mil on as stated in the Cal Record- and, why couldn't they rent another compressor/ I recall seeing these in the past and cant imagine they could not find the space if they were pressed.


They spent the money on fan guns and water pumping.  I've heard conflicting reports as to who actually spent the money on the fan guns, but the money was spent.  Those fan guns have yet to be turned on this year.  The only benefit they will derive is when snow is being made on the training hill where they are located.  This will free up compressed air to be used elsewhere.  But this assumes that there is sufficient water, which has been a real problem.  When they are not making snow on the training hill, there is no benefit at all to the overall system other than the fact that they relocated some low-e guns.

Simply put: Q Burke has a snowmaking system that would only be good at a hill a fraction of their size.  They've made many promises to improve the system.  From a practical perspective, these promises have been absolutely hollow.  Therefore, they've had a really shitty product for the past three years until natural snowfall saves them.  Yet management is "excited".


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> god you guys are all serial complainers. Half of the Vermont ski areas arent open yet. We had one of the driest, warmest falls ever. Its amazing to me the amount of time some of you invest in complaining. If I had as negative opinions as alot of you, whether warranted or not, I wouldnt think of skiing at burke.



Yeah, you're right.  They once again bragged about improvements that would open the mountain earlier than ever, and yet they now can only run 25 guns instead of 60 or so in 2011.  You're right, nothing to see here.....  

:roll:






Big Wave Dave said:


> long story short one thing matters- having terrain open for xmas week. Everything else is window dressing.



Talk to us then.  



> One question I do have as clearly some of the people posting on here are way more familiar with the ski industry and what Buirke did than I am- what did they actually spend the $1mil on as stated in the Cal Record- and, why couldnt they rent another compressor/ I recall seeing these in the past and cant imagine they could not find the space if they were pressed.



As probably said, booster pump for water.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This is the problem.  Burke can only seem to muster 25 or 30 guns at any given time.  This means that when snowmaking conditions exist, the rest of the competition is blowing Burke out of the water.  What we are going to see is Burke limping along when cold weather returns, gradually getting just a few trails open over the course of about three weeks of snowmaking.  They will get trails open at a fraction of the pace that other hills will get them open.
> 
> Whether the problem is water or compressed air, Burke just doesn't have enough of what they need.  This is mostly because Ary made a strategic decision to eliminate compressed air capacity.  The water was just bad luck (if it's indeed true), whereas the lack of compressed air was intentional.



Reminds me of when I was a pass holder at ragged.  Think it was 09 through 11.  I ended up switching to Gunstock after because they were priced similar and the terrain expansion was so slow to start the season at Ragged.  

Now, Ragged has since largely fixed the problem with millions in investment.  I bet they've doubled their skier visits in the process.  Ragged has mentioned a desire to build a hotel too, but made the decision to fix mountain operations first through both investment in facilities and seasoned personnel.  

Pretty interesting case study of how to do things right (Ragged) vs how to do things wrong (Burke) coming from two areas with similar histories of mismanagement, antiquated facilities and lack of beds.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Reminds me of when I was a pass holder at ragged.  Think it was 09 through 11.  I ended up switching to Gunstock after because they were priced similar and the terrain expansion was so slow to start the season at Ragged.
> 
> Now, Ragged has since largely fixed the problem with millions in investment.  I bet they've doubled their skier visits in the process.  Ragged has mentioned a desire to build a hotel too, but made the decision to fix mountain operations first through both investment in facilities and seasoned personnel.
> 
> Pretty interesting case study of how to do things right (Ragged) vs how to do things wrong (Burke) coming from two areas with similar histories of mismanagement, antiquated facilities and lack of beds.



Very interesting observation.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> , why couldnt they rent another compressor/ I recall seeing these in the past and cant imagine they could not find the space if they were pressed.



Straight up ignorance from Ary and arrogance that his way is the right way.

There has been direct communication to the mountain that they have an air capicity issue that could be easily addressed through renting compressors.  They've denied having a problem.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Straight up ignorance from Ary and arrogance that his way is the right way.
> 
> There has been direct communication to the mountain that they have an air capicity issue that could be easily addressed through renting compressors.  They've denied having a problem.



Yep.  Exactly.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

A friend of mine skinned up today and sent a photo from just below the summit.  They've been pounding Upper Willoughby with snowmaking whenever temps have allowed and their improved system is really paying dividends.  He tells me that he hasn't been this "excited" for a few years.


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## halfpintvt (Dec 2, 2015)

Lyndon State College News 7 Reports the following:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





BREAKING: The grand opening of the Q Burke hotel has been delayed and  the hotel will not accept reservations until after January 15, according  to resort officials. It was originally set to open next Friday. The Q  Burke marketing team has confirmed this information, but did not provide  additional comment.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

You heard it here yesterday!  Well, kind of (in post 5229).

Given the snow conditions, I don't think that most guests will be "excited" to get their money back.


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## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You heard it here yesterday!  Well, kind of (in post 5229).
> 
> Given the snow conditions, I don't think that most guests will be "excited" to get their money back.



Were there many to begin with?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Were there many to begin with?



Only half of the hotel was made available and there were still plenty of rooms left over Christmas break.

I consistently predicted that they were behind schedule. Masskier kept insisting that they would open on time.  What a shock.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

halfpintvt said:


> Lyndon State College News 7 Reports the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW.  That is a shock.  They were insisting it WOULD be open.  I bet that they pin this on the new manager(s).  Not good.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2015)

January 15th?

What an epic fail. Xmas week is the biggest week of the year.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> January 15th?
> 
> What an epic fail. Xmas week is the biggest week of the year.



They'll blame it on the State even though work never stopped.  


.


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## River19 (Dec 2, 2015)

Hold the phones......JANUARY 15th?   I thought they were talking DECEMBER 15th?

December 15th for skiing opening (if they make snow)?  Missing the whole holiday season?

Huh?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 2, 2015)

River19 said:


> Hold the phones......JANUARY 15th?   I thought they were talking DECEMBER 15th?
> 
> December 15th for skiing opening (if they make snow)?  Missing the whole holiday season?
> 
> Huh?



January 15th for the Qhotel. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## oldtimer (Dec 3, 2015)

January 15th confirmed by trying dates on the resy website.  January 14th is no good.  January 15th works--

sucks.  not a huge fan of Ary, but we all want this to work for the good of the mountain.


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## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> January 15th confirmed by trying dates on the resy website.  January 14th is no good.  January 15th works--
> 
> sucks.  not a huge fan of Ary, but we all want this to work for the good of the mountain.



This.

I think, while being obviously very critical of the decisions and handling of many aspects of the plan and execution over the past couple years we all want the mountain to succeed.  That is at the heart of the WTF lens we tend to view everything Q through.  And it turns out we were right, which really sucks.

So we got a mountain with no ability to make snow.  While all mountains are dealing with weather, those mountains are much more equipped to deal with aggressively making snow as soon as weather turns favorable.  This has been a short coming of Q for the past couple years, Burke has struggled to not only get trails open without a large natural dumping but they really struggled to recover from mid season warm ups.

So no real snow making improvements despite assurances etc.

Months of "the Hotel is on schedule, get your holiday groove on, come for the December 13th celebration with two comedians etc.".......and that was going to be with a half open hotel.........and now.......no hotel opening this year.  Christmas season......gone.  New Years celebration opportunities.......gone.

By all accounts the first 25% of the 2014/2015 season was a disaster with many disgruntled Burkies.........everyone got lip service, they rolled out the talking head Stenger and for the next 10-12 months there were promises and assurances that 2015/2016 will be a fantastic year and the critical unofficial start of the season, Christmas Vacation, will be a raging success with new snow making and the grand hotel rocking and rolling.   And that appears to be all bullshit.

The real losers here are not only the folks that bought into the promises of better early skiing, but anyone who was hoping to have another job up at the hotel.  How can they plan to adequately and effectively staff a hotel opening mid season?  You think talented hospitality folks are going to be unemployed in mid January?  I don't have faith that Ary (really why has this guy not been kicked off the mountain......rhetorical of course) would ever bring on a full staff and pay them to hang out and wait for the opening.  Maybe I'm wrong......but, we've been more right than wrong all along sadly.

And people ask why we are so negative on this forum.......if the most likely scenario is negative, then it is what it is.  And we keep being proven right.

And hey......where is the "Burke Mountain Real Estate Marketing Dept" anyways?  Should be a great time to buy.......lol


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## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

And WTF do I keep getting hammered with the "Save 30% on your Holiday Vacation. Availability Limited" ads from Q........"Limited"? yeah no shit, friggin' hotel isn't open over the holidays you schmucks.......Marketing Team is surely on top of things.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2015)

Good point on staffing.  It's a nightmare at a ski area under normal conditions.  They will end up being unbelievably short staffed at that facility.  Those who do work will have no choice, but to work 6-7 days a week and very long days.  Service will undoubtedly suffer big time.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 3, 2015)

I can say I'm surprised by this news. Sad for all involved. With the number of positions they still have open, I wonder if that is playing into the delay as well.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

There was nothing in the newspaper today about the delayed hotel opening, so LSC News 7 really got a scoop.  I wonder if some college students were told not to show up to work next week.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 3, 2015)

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=349


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## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2015)

Ha!! - always the politician.  Is Threecy's press release more about the Hotel not opening or the controversy around EB-5 management?


I'm not saying the information isn't relevant, it's just that the article seems to focus mostly on EB-5.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

The website is still promoting hotel deals for Christmas week.  Apparently marketing doesn't watch LSC News7.


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## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Ha!! - always the politician.  Is Threecy's press release more about the Hotel not opening or the controversy around EB-5 management?
> 
> 
> I'm not saying the information isn't relevant, it's just that the article seems to focus mostly on EB-5.



I'm sure the dialog/storyline from the Q is that the delayed opening is due to the state doing XYZ.....which of course comes back to root cause of why the state is involved in that capacity in the first place.  Q has always been kinda low on the accountability ladder......sorry to reference some corporate operating systems there, but the company I work for tends to function correctly......perhaps Q could take some lessons there.

But effin' A Stenger is "Excited!".........


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## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The website is still promoting hotel deals for Christmas week.  Apparently marketing doesn't watch LSC News7.



That was my point earlier....I was literally typing my post/rant this morning about the 1/15 targeted opening and as soon as I hit submit.....I go to FB and my twice daily blast of "30% off holiday packages" crap was hitting me in the face still.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

River19 said:


> But effin' A Stenger is "Excited!".........


Good point.  If Stenger says that he is "excited", then we all should be "excited".  After all, the hotel will have an outdoor pool!  That's enough to get Masskier "excited".

At least the webcam shows some snow falling, even if it's just an inch or so.


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## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point.  If Stenger says that he is "excited", then we all should be "excited".  After all, the hotel will have an outdoor pool!  That's enough to get Masskier "excited".
> 
> At least the webcam shows some snow falling, even if it's just an inch or so.



More snow than the damn fan guns have made......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

River19 said:


> More snow than the damn fan guns have made......



Stop that.  Everyone must be "excited" at how things have gone so far.  At least that's what I'm told.  :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

Some thoughts here:  

First, as with any construction project, it is almost inevitable that delays will occur.  When I drove up there in October, I was very surprised to see how much work remained.  They were very ambitious to maintain that they would make the December 11th deadline.  The fact that they continuously dug in and said that December 11th was a firm date was foolish.  It would have been better to have a soft opening and to set the opening at a later date when they had a firmer grasp as to when the end was in sight.  But they showed their lack of experience by just repeating what they said.  

Second, it has been said, and I've asked it, but WHO is going to work here?  They can barely get enough people to run the ski area.  They have pissed off everyone in their backyard and nobody in the hospitality or ski industry take Q seriously.  Sure, import some folks working on visas as Ginn did a few years back, but it is too late for that now.  

Third, what the hell is Ary STILL doing there?  He was supposed to be "gone" this spring.  We were skeptical of that one.  

And as to the refrain from a few that we are all just upset about sour grapes, I think that it should be clear that all is not right here and we're all pretty concerned.  The few supporters must be pretty disappointed that they've been misled by the Q on this one.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

Also, good theory about how LSC got wind of this.  Certainly an intern at the mountain or a student gave them the tip.  Makes sense that an LSC student might work there over the holidays with exams going on soon and that he/she got the awkward call from the Q-Enterprise saying that there was "a great disturbance in the Force".  

(Love the Star Wars reference?  Thank you, now send me my check, George Lucas  )


----------



## dlague (Dec 3, 2015)

I am surprised this thread is so active.  Is it me or does the same discussions seem to take place?  I pop in hoping to see something different but .....


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

dlague said:


> I am surprised this thread is so active.  Is it me or does the same discussions seem to take place?  I pop in hoping to see something different but .....



That Q is failing again?


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## dlague (Dec 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That Q is failing again?



That and snow making fail, EB-5 fail etc.


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## Smellytele (Dec 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Also, good theory about how LSC got wind of this.  Certainly an intern at the mountain or a student gave them the tip.  Makes sense that an LSC student might work there over the holidays with exams going on soon and that he/she got the awkward call from the Q-Enterprise saying that there was "a great disturbance in the Force".
> 
> (Love the Star Wars reference?  Thank you, now send me my check, George Lucas  )



George is out of the Star Wars business now it is Disney


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> George is out of the Star Wars business now it is Disney



:lol:  Shows how much I follow Star Wars!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

Wonder what he thinks of PeakCM now?



via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

dlague said:


> I am surprised this thread is so active.  Is it me or does the same discussions seem to take place?  I pop in hoping to see something different but .....



It's the same general topic, but just when you think that the dust has settled something pops up again.  

I think that there are two main reasons why this thread is so prolific:
1) MANAGEMENT: Q Burke has about the worst PR department I have seen.  The constant empty promises and double-speak invite threads such as this.
2) CUSTOMER BASE: Burke's customer base is loyal.  It's amazing how many Burke skiers are passionate about Burke - even if they are pissed off at what is currently happening.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 3, 2015)

dlague said:


> I am surprised this thread is so active.  Is it me or does the same discussions seem to take place?  I pop in hoping to see something different but .....



It very depression thread. I sad for Burke people though ii stinks for them and workers. Q n3eds to be placed by Lazzoo twin.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

Maybe they had to decide between water for snowmaking and water for running the toilets.  At least snowmaking won.  :wink:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

Some interesting EB-5 information in this article:
http://www.wcax.com/story/30502097/northeast-kingdom-airport-upgrades-complete

Two of the more interesting quotes:
"The Department of Financial Regulation says it's conducting a full financial review of Q Burke. It's not done yet."
(and...)
"Two members of Gov. Peter Shumlin's cabinet were scheduled to speak at the airport Thursday, but the chair of the airport's committee says they canceled."


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> It very depression thread. I sad for Burke people though ii stinks for them and workers. Q n3eds to be placed by Lazzoo twin.



And the Scotty has spoken on the issue!  Agree!  :lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)




----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 3, 2015)

> "...the naysayers can go to hell," Stenger said."



:roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> :roll:



Where was that?  And Burke skiers are already in hell with this crew.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Where was that?  And Burke skiers are already in hell with this crew.



In the WCAX article I linked to.


.


----------



## faQ (Dec 3, 2015)

River19 said:


> But effin' A Stenger is "Excited!".........



Of course Stenger is excited, he's still in the tube grabbing the eb5 money!  
http://www.money-machine-cash-cube.com/images/blizzardofdollars-yourlogo-tn.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

faQ said:


> Of course Stenger is excited, he's still in the tube grabbing the eb5 money!
> http://www.money-machine-cash-cube.com/images/blizzardofdollars-yourlogo-tn.jpg
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Fixed it for you


----------



## faQ (Dec 3, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Fixed it for you



haha, thanks!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

A little tangent here to show off this beauty from my office....too bad Mr. Lyons no longer is in business. Mr. Jenks has some beauties though. 


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----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 3, 2015)

My office has the same photo (14x42) in the entrance to the building. It is a sweet shot.

However, I know a guy that is trying to fill in the landscape photography gap left by Rob Lyons...:wink:


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> My office has the same photo (14x42) in the entrance to the building. It is a sweet shot.
> 
> However, I know a guy that is trying to fill in the landscape photography gap left by Rob Lyons...:wink:



I was going to say that there is "someone" close by here that also has operators standing by to fulfill orders.  I may have to ask Santa or my wife to contact you for a pic sometime.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

Burke's latest email says that they fired up the snow guns this afternoon.  That really surprises me since the temperatures are VERY marginal (34 in Lyndonville) with high humidity in the 90's.  Mount Washington reports 16 degrees, so maybe it's cold enough at the top of Burke Mountain.

EDIT: They were indeed making snow at the summit.  Here is what they posted on Facebook:
"We will finish the summit today and then move to Warren's Way training hill. Projected opening date remains Friday, December 18th."


----------



## wtcobb (Dec 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke's latest email says that they fired up the snow guns this afternoon.  That really surprises me since the temperatures are VERY marginal (34 in Lyndonville) with high humidity in the 90's.  Mount Washington reports 16 degrees, so maybe it's cold enough at the top of Burke Mountain.



Are we certain the snow guns aren't currently being used to stoke a bonfire?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke's latest email says that they fired up the snow guns this afternoon.  That really surprises me since the temperatures are VERY marginal (34 in Lyndonville) with high humidity in the 90's.  Mount Washington reports 16 degrees, so maybe it's cold enough at the top of Burke Mountain.
> 
> EDIT: They were indeed making snow at the summit.  Here is what they posted on Facebook:
> "We will finish the summit today and then move to Warren's Way training hill. Projected opening date remains Friday, December 18th."



Rime ice is forming on hills here in St J/Waterford above 1200'. So I would say that anything above the CCC road (~2000') is cpold enough to operate a snow gun.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2015)

Let's not be so cynical.  The hotel is coming along great!


----------



## zeke (Dec 3, 2015)

River19 said:


> That was my point earlier....I was literally typing my post/rant this morning about the 1/15 targeted opening and as soon as I hit submit.....I go to FB and my twice daily blast of "30% off holiday packages" crap was hitting me in the face still.



aren't you local or pretty close to it? if so, i think you getting banners 2x a day for the hotel pretty much assures that the mktg team is asleep at the wheel.


----------



## River19 (Dec 3, 2015)

zeke said:


> aren't you local or pretty close to it? if so, i think you getting banners 2x a day for the hotel pretty much assures that the mktg team is asleep at the wheel.



I think it is anyone that friended the mountain, or that is what I assumed.

Who knows......everyday that shit is in my FB feed......and then a banner or two on the margins......


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2015)

This just in my inbox this morning:  better sit down for this news.  *15 snowguns are running*.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

I'm excited!!!


----------



## River19 (Dec 4, 2015)

And the race is on, Q's 15 guns and my ice maker in my kitchen, who will have more ice by the end of the weekend....


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 4, 2015)

forecast for the next 2 weeks is brutal...........


----------



## River19 (Dec 4, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> forecast for the next 2 weeks is brutal...........



El Nino......

Weather is brutal for snow making and skiing but great if you are still hunting, like I am.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> And the race is on, Q's 15 guns and my ice maker in my kitchen, who will have more ice by the end of the weekend....



That's kind of what I fear.  The snow I skied on last February was good, but it was natural.  I heard from many that the snowmaking is not as good as it once was because of lack of institutional knowledge.


----------



## mriceyman (Dec 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> And the race is on, Q's 15 guns and my ice maker in my kitchen, who will have more ice by the end of the weekend....



Babahahah


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----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> And the race is on, Q's 15 guns and my ice maker in my kitchen, who will have more ice by the end of the weekend....



I have no doubt that, like a Bond movie, the snowguns are outfitted with "Q"'s on their nozzles. Yet another effort to make clear who is in control of the mountain.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

Exciting news.  They managed to get a 16th snow gun going!



At this rate the Dippers should be opened by February 20th.  Who's excited???  I know I am!!!


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

And this was just posted to their Facebook page:
"After the Warren Miller scam I was told to email someone at Burke to get my free lift ticket. It's been almost a month and no response. Thanks for the great customer service."

Doh!  For those who hadn't seen the earlier comment, this is a customer that was supposed to get a Burke voucher at a Warren Miller movie but the voucher was mistakenly left out.


----------



## nelsapbm (Dec 4, 2015)

Construction accident at the hotel site....doesn't sound good. Hope the person will be OK!

https://www.facebook.com/news7newsl...769081120652/1045147655516119/?type=3&theater


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

nelsapbm said:


> Construction accident at the hotel site....doesn't sound good. Hope the person will be OK!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/news7newsl...769081120652/1045147655516119/?type=3&theater



Ugh.  For all of the snarkiness I've engaged in, this is not a time at all for anything but sympathy for whomever was injured.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

From News7:
UPDATE: Emergency crews just transferred the man from the ambulance to the helicopter, which took off shortly after. The helicopter was from Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center.

Judging by the video posted by News7, it looks like the helicopter landed in the Sherburne parking lot.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> And this was just posted to their Facebook page:
> "After the Warren Miller scam I was told to email someone at Burke to get my free lift ticket. It's been almost a month and no response. Thanks for the great customer service."
> 
> Doh!  For those who hadn't seen the earlier comment, *this is a customer that was supposed to get a Burke voucher at a Warren Miller movie but the voucher was mistakenly left out.*



The Burke voucher wasnt electronic?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 4, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The Burke voucher wasnt electronic?



Here was the original Facebook discussion:

*Glade Runner*: So what happened to your free Mon to Fri ticket that was supposed to be in the Warren Miller booklet? The preview mentioned the deal but, when we got there the coupon was only for "2 people can stay for as little as $86/night in our basic studio suite (from rate based on 2 adults staying early winter season, lodging only)."

*Q Burke Mountain Resort*: The voucher should have been in your Warren Miller movie booklet. There is a coupon code that you enter online which redeems the deal and gets you your lift tickets. If you have trouble please email jsechler@qburke.com and we'll make sure you get your tickets mailed to you.

*Glade Runner*: I went through the book a couple times page by page and there is nothing in there other than the bogus early season hotel deal that you get when registering the card in the book.

*Q Burke Mountain Resort*: Ok - send jsechler@qburke.com an email with your information and we'll make sure you get your ticket.;


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here was the original Facebook discussion:
> 
> *Glade Runner*: So what happened to your free Mon to Fri ticket that was supposed to be in the Warren Miller booklet? The preview mentioned the deal but, when we got there the coupon was only for "2 people can stay for as little as $86/night in our basic studio suite (from rate based on 2 adults staying early winter season, lodging only)."
> 
> ...



The person is an idiot. It is electronic. You have to go to the WM site and punch in the code the comes in the goody bag at the show/ It doesn't say Burke or any ski area on it. Moron


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 4, 2015)




----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2015)

nelsapbm said:


> Construction accident at the hotel site....doesn't sound good. Hope the person will be OK!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/news7newsl...769081120652/1045147655516119/?type=3&theater



Sucks.  Damn.  Thoughts and prayers for the family.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> The person is an idiot. It is electronic. You have to go to the WM site and punch in the code the comes in the goody bag at the show/ It doesn't say Burke or any ski area on it. Moron



I feel badly for J Sechler as she just has to deal with what happens....be it Q or not.


----------



## River19 (Dec 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Exciting news.  They managed to get a 16th snow gun going!
> 
> View attachment 18042
> 
> At this rate the Dippers should be opened by February 20th.  Who's excited???  I know I am!!!



Honestly, this shit made me laugh out loud to the point I had to show my wife, who also laughed heartily........I think one of the dogs even laughed......or maybe it was a fart......either way, this is good comedy.

P.S.  Serious note........horrible to hear about the accident on the Hotel today,WTF does something like that happen?  Thoughts and prayers with the injured.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 5, 2015)

River19 said:


> And the race is on, Q's 15 guns and my ice maker in my kitchen, who will have more ice by the end of the weekend....



Yawgoo Valley (240 foot vertical) has 14 guns going at a time.   Burke (2011 vertical) only managed one more gun than Yawgoo.   

Who's excited?

Today's report says that Upper Willoughby is done.  Let's hope not too much melts.  Temps are not looking good.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Yawgoo Valley (240 foot vertical) has 14 guns going at a time.   Burke (2011 vertical) only managed one more gun than Yawgoo.
> 
> Who's excited?
> 
> Today's report says that Upper Willoughby is done.  Let's hope not too much melts.  Temps are not looking good.



0 guns last night; zero today.  We now know that the reason why the fan guns aren't running is because the wet bulb temp is too warm right now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 5, 2015)

And a low of 40 at the summit tonight.  Grr...

It was rough driving by an open Cannon today knowing that Burke is at least two weeks away from opening.


----------



## KingdomBC (Dec 5, 2015)

That's two published/promised weeks...  You'll get nothing and like it, which should be exciting for you!  Aren't you glad you bought passes?  They'll grant you unlimited access to some mid season skiing, and as much BS as you can stomach!


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 5, 2015)

Or as the "excited" Stenger says...  "The naysayers can go to hell".

I'm starting to wonder if hell would have more snow.


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## River19 (Dec 5, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Or as the "excited" Stenger says...  "The naysayers can go to hell".
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if hell would have more snow.



Well, since there is a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven, I'm guessing we'll pass the Q family RV on the highway to hell......see you on the road....


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well, since there is a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven, I'm guessing we'll pass the Q family RV on the highway to hell......see you on the road....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2015)

Today's Caledonian Record has an article about the hotel delay and the delayed resort opening.  Hotel guests are being offered a full refund or a stay at Jay Peak.  Stenger of Oz is blaming the weather, and ONLY the weather, for the lack of snowmaking.

Here is a quote from the article about the hotel:
"We’ve got a delay on some equipment that is pushing the opening date back, it’s a very fluid situation,” Stenger explained of the hotel opening... "I hope to have clarity on delivery of this stuff possibly even later this afternoon...That’s why we’re frankly so tentative on the opening date. I’m really pushing for some answers on that.”


----------



## zeke (Dec 7, 2015)

So does stenger have any credibility left? I mean outside of this board. He used to carry a lot of weight and respect in the NEK, has he thrown that away or are the "everyday people" still believers in his epic load of horse sh!t?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2015)

zeke said:


> So does stenger have any credibility left? I mean outside of this board. He used to carry a lot of weight and respect in the NEK, has he thrown that away or are the "everyday people" still believers in his epic load of horse sh!t?



I think it's split. Lots of people still believe in him but lots more have noticed the wheels falling off of the cart.   The giant hole in downtown Newport hasn't helped him.  There is a meeting in Newport (tonight?) to get some answers.   He hasn't even applied for permits yet so the citizens of Newport realize that the hole is going to be there for a while.


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## River19 (Dec 7, 2015)

zeke said:


> So does stenger have any credibility left? I mean outside of this board. He used to carry a lot of weight and respect in the NEK, has he thrown that away or are the "everyday people" still believers in his epic load of horse sh!t?



Well, I think his "afterglow" started to wear off a couple years ago.  I had an opportunity to work for his organization in some Finance capacity and when I started asking around to some people I trusted and they told me quietly "I would steer clear of that whole group, there is something shady about the whole thing and it is about to blow up".  I'm guessing they were hinting at the SEC probe etc.

And most of the locals that don't follow things as intensely as this board does go "who?" when I mention his name, so.....there is that.

I also think all the goodwill he built up by improving Jay has been whittled away every time they rolled him out as the talking head for one of Jrs messes.....and once the whole renaming thing went through.....well....we all knew who was really calling the shots.  It ain't QSBurke now is it?


----------



## the original trailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Today's Caledonian Record has an article about the hotel delay and the delayed resort opening.  Hotel guests are being offered a full refund or a stay at Jay Peak.  Stenger of Oz is blaming the weather, and ONLY the weather, for the lack of snowmaking.
> 
> Here is a quote from the article about the hotel:
> "We’ve got a delay on some equipment that is pushing the opening date back, it’s a very fluid situation,” Stenger explained of the hotel opening... "I hope to have clarity on delivery of this stuff possibly even later this afternoon...That’s why we’re frankly so tentative on the opening date. I’m really pushing for some answers on that.”



Did you notice that Stenger is labeled the resort general manager in that article ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2015)

VT Digger article:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/07/172499/

"“The delay in opening the skiing product is simply the lack of suitable snowmaking weather,” Stenger reiterated."

Right... because only using 15 snowmaking guns at a time on a resort with over 2,000 vertical feet has NOTHING at all to do with the delayed opening.


----------



## billski (Dec 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


>


  Nice theatrics!


----------



## billski (Dec 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The giant hole in downtown Newport hasn't helped him.



That's a really nice hole they have there.  Very attractive, nice view, gives downtown a real "open" feel.   Must have been done by the same folks who brought us the Filene's hole in Boston.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VT Digger article:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/07/172499/
> 
> "“The delay in opening the skiing product is simply the lack of suitable snowmaking weather,” Stenger reiterated."
> ...



Weather is a *part of the problem.*  The other part is not having sufficient capacity to take advantage of the windows that they had.  I think that the old Burke would have at least had the Poma going by now.  Not much, but enough to open for BMA.  Look around...other places are open.  Hell, Pats Peak outside of Concord, NH opened this past weekend.  The weather has sucked, but others with good capacity are making it.


----------



## River19 (Dec 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Weather is a *part of the problem.*  The other part is not having sufficient capacity to take advantage of the windows that they had.  I think that the old Burke would have at least had the Poma going by now.  Not much, but enough to open for BMA.  Look around...other places are open.  Hell, Pats Peak outside of Concord, NH opened this past weekend.  The weather has sucked, but others with good capacity are making it.



And Pat's pond isn't exactly the Quabbin......


----------



## Gman (Dec 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Weather is a *part of the problem.*  The other part is not having sufficient capacity to take advantage of the windows that they had.  I think that the old Burke would have at least had the Poma going by now.  Not much, but enough to open for BMA.  Look around...other places are open.  Hell, Pats Peak outside of Concord, NH opened this past weekend.  The weather has sucked, but others with good capacity are making it.


 This is the same BS they put on us last year, and the year before that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2015)

Gman said:


> This is the same BS they put on us last year, and the year before that.



And each of the past two years they vowed to address the problem.


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

http://www.wcax.com/story/30687144/q-burke-says-delays-push-back-hotel-opening


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the old Burke would have at least had the Poma going by now.



Early season of 2006 was terrible as well. They got Lower Warrens Way open by December 16th.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Early season of 2006 was terrible as well. They got Lower Warrens Way open by December 16th.



I remember that season....and how it rebounded on February 14, 2007.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 7, 2015)




----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


>



THAT's what we like!!!!!  I suggest that folks check out the AZ Burkeapolooza Coverage starting at about 7:30.  Yours truly here appears with Andy Zee (RIP) at about 8:20.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> THAT's what we like!!!!!  I suggest that folks check out the AZ Burkeapolooza Coverage starting at about 7:30.  Yours truly here appears with Andy Zee (RIP) at about 8:20.



Was that you with the backpack on way in the backseat?


----------



## dlague (Dec 7, 2015)

billski said:


> That's a really nice hole they have there.  Very attractive, nice view, gives downtown a real "open" feel.   Must have been done by the same folks who brought us the Filene's hole in Boston.



Several weeks ago we visited relatives up there and took a look at it!  It is on a time limit before it gets turned into a park if nothing gets built.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 7, 2015)

That would be an expensive park. How much did they pay for that property?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2015)

$2.85 million.  That will potentially pale in comparison to what the EB-5 investors will have to pay for it.  Remember the obscene profit that Ariel Quiros made on the AnC Bio land?  The state has finally woken up and is demanding an independent appraisal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Was that you with the backpack on way in the backseat?



Nope. The guy with the bag was AndyZee.

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2015)

zeke said:


> So does stenger have any credibility left? I mean outside of this board. He used to carry a lot of weight and respect in the NEK, has he thrown that away or are the "everyday people" still believers in his epic load of horse sh!t?



I'm inclined to think that his problem was that he had to marry the devil in order to get any of his business expansions done. In other words, he had to partner up with Q. If I had to guess Q is the source of a lot of the problems. Stenger himself is very optimistic, wait, overly optimistic. But that alone is not the problem. 


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----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

Q Burke was able to make snow last night.  For the first time this season they lit up the fan guns on Warren's Way.  You know... the fan guns that were supposed to help so much.  The fan guns that were supposed to free up compressed air for snowmaking elsewhere.

The numbers are in.  The TOTAL number of snowmaking guns they got going for snowmaking last night was 17.  Yup.  17.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Dec 8, 2015)

All 17 fan guns were fired up by 7pm last night on Warren's Way training hill and Midway. Our night crew was expecting temperatures to drop so we could run snow making on the Bear Den trail simultaneously but they never got there. Instead, they focused on Warren's Way to get as much snow down as possible during this window. Projected opening day is Friday, December 18th.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

Was there an inversion last night?  Warren's Way is below Bear Den.

And if there was an inversion, whey didn't they get some portable guns going on Warren's Way?

EDIT: Looking at the temps for Mt. Washington last night, it does not appear that there was an inversion.  I really can't understand why they failed to get guns going on Bear Den.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Was there an inversion last night?  Warren's Way is below Bear Den.
> 
> And if there was an inversion, whey didn't they get some portable guns going on Warren's Way?
> 
> EDIT: Looking at the temps for Mt. Washington last night, it does not appear that there was an inversion.  I really can't understand why they failed to get guns going on Bear Den.



The temps between 2500 and 3000 feet have been pretty marginal for snow making. It may have dipped below freezing last night at some point but probably not long enough to make much snow.

But why not fire up the guns on Lower Willoughby instead? That is a high priority trail when it comes to connecting to the lower mtn. Start building some stockpiles while the temps are decent then you don't have to mess around on that trail later when you need to be pumping out snow on the Dippers or somewhere else.
My guess is the bare bones crew had their hands full keeping the 17 fans guns operating effectively.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> My guess is the bare bones crew had their hands full keeping the 17 fans guns operating effectively.


Good point.  

The bottom line is that snowmaking windows are precious for the next few days.  The main advantage of the fan guns is that they free up snowmaking capacity elsewhere on the mountain.  The river is running much higher, so there was absolutely no excuse for failing to take advantage of this snowmaking window.  But as usual they, at best, limped along.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> The temps between 2500 and 3000 feet have been pretty marginal for snow making. It may have dipped below freezing last night at some point but probably not long enough to make much snow.
> 
> But why not fire up the guns on Lower Willoughby instead? That is a high priority trail when it comes to connecting to the lower mtn. Start building some stockpiles while the temps are decent then you don't have to mess around on that trail later when you need to be pumping out snow on the Dippers or somewhere else.
> My guess is the bare bones crew had their hands full keeping the 17 fans guns operating effectively.



Pole mounted fan guns usually are computer controlled and usually no one is needed actually out on the mountain.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2015)

http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/07/1724...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-fe3d6ef76b-405558657

Read the comments for some interesting input.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 8, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Pole mounted fan guns usually are computer controlled and usually no one is needed actually out on the mountain.



This is also the first time actually hammering out snow with them for an extended period. So they may have had the snowmaking personnel around to make tweaks to the system. Although a computerized system should only require one person sitting at a terminal to tweak.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

Does anyone have a visual as to how much snow they made on Warren's Way last night?  I'm curious about how the new fan guns performed.

I just looked at the ten day forecast.  Depressing...  I'm now worried about how much snow they will lose, not just whether or not snow can be made.


----------



## River19 (Dec 8, 2015)

Based on the longer term trend that El Nino setup is really keeping the cold air stacked up in Canada and pushing these mild temps through northern New England.......looks like until that pattern breaks down we are in for tough sledding.....literally.

Good luck making and keeping snow and reasonable conditions.......I think any real VAST traffic may be out of the question this year.  No bueno.

Glad I got rid of the sleds......


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/07/1724...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-fe3d6ef76b-405558657
> 
> Read the comments for some interesting input.


 
Stenger saying that the date could be sooner than the 15th of Jan to open the Hotel is kind of useless. Who would be staying there when no reservation are made only a month before.


----------



## Gman (Dec 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone have a visual as to how much snow they made on Warren's Way last night?  I'm curious about how the new fan guns performed.
> 
> I just looked at the ten day forecast.  Depressing...  I'm now worried about how much snow they will lose, not just whether or not snow can be made.


Pics posted on FB.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/07/1724...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-fe3d6ef76b-405558657
> 
> Read the comments for some interesting input.



Angry Mark Trigo who I think maybe Burski...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 8, 2015)

Thought they bought 20 fan guns?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Thought they bought 20 fan guns?



According to this link they purchased 20:
http://qburke.com/assets/Uploads/PDF/5-5-2015-Snowmaking-Updates.pdf?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

This is a serious question and not me trying to be a wise guy.  What are the odds that they open on the 18th?  The ten day forecast is HORRIBLE.  If they are lucky they will get some short snowmaking windows at night, but these may not even offset the melting that will occur.  Bear Den is not yet done, and Warren's Way needs more snow.  And that's before they even think about connecting Mid-Burke to the lower mountain.

My best guess is that if they open it will be from Mid-Burke only - and they will do that just to save some face.  But I don't give even this scenario a 100% chance of happening.  I'm starting to think that it's more like a 50% chance.  

Thoughts?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 8, 2015)

50% chance of opening Lower Warrens Way via the Poma (a replay of December 2006). Looks like they need at least another 24 hours of snow making to get a good blanket down on Lower Warrens.


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## Masskier (Dec 8, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> 50% chance of opening Lower Warrens Way via the Poma (a replay of December 2006). Looks like they need at least another 24 hours of snow making to get a good blanket down on Lower Warrens.



Good estimate.  Starting from scratch at 23 degrees F it would take 36 hours to open the training hill top to bottom.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

Here are some quotes from a 2012 WCAX story to get us through these tough times:

"The new owner of Vermont's Burke Mountain Resort is going to increase snowmaking capacity by 50 percent to help the resort during winters when there is little snow."

and...

"Jay Peak President Bill Stenger, who bought Burke in May along with a business partner, says the snowmaking system improvements will be the initial focus of the new owners."


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## Gman (Dec 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here are some quotes from a 2012 WCAX story to get us through these tough times:
> 
> "The new owner of Vermont's Burke Mountain Resort is going to increase snowmaking capacity by 50 percent to help the resort during winters when there is little snow."
> 
> ...



Ah yes....when we were young and naive.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Here are some quotes from a 2012 WCAX story to get us through these tough times:
> 
> "The new owner of Vermont's Burke Mountain Resort is going to increase snowmaking capacity by 50 percent to help the resort during winters when there is little snow."
> 
> ...



Three steps backward, one step forward.  Still a net loss.  No air compressors = less capacity to blow when you need to.


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## River19 (Dec 8, 2015)

At the end of the day, they can blame the weather all they want but over the next 3-4 weeks when all the other ski areas who are dealing with the same or worse weather conditions have more open terrain and are actually providing a product for the people that bought passes....well the truth will be obvious.  

At that point we will either see the impact of the snow making improvements they supposedly made or not.....they are out of excuses.....


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## River19 (Dec 8, 2015)

At the end of the day, they can blame the weather all they want but over the next 3-4 weeks when all the other ski areas who are dealing with the same or worse weather conditions have more open terrain and are actually providing a product for the people that bought passes....well the truth will be obvious.  

At that point we will either see the impact of the snow making improvements they supposedly made or not.....they are out of excuses.....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

If natural snowfall doesn't save them, this is going to get ugly very fast.  They still don't have any snow made on the lower mountain, which is vital to have since they don't have sufficient parking at Mid-Burke.  

I mentioned a few pages ago in this thread that the warm weather makes them look better than they really are.  Once the cold weather hits, other areas will be opening trails left and right.  Burke will be opening trails at a snail's pace compared to those other resorts.  This is when the lack of snowmaking will really stand out.  

I really wonder what management is thinking right now.  With the hotel about to open, and a third year in a row with Christmas being horrible compared to the competition, they've got to do something MAJOR over the summer.  Something more than installing a few fan guns to benefit BMA.  But I'm not convinced they will.  The pattern has been to rely on natural snow to erase everyone's memory of just how bad the first half of the season was.  

To be fair, even Jay Peak is showing its lack of snowmaking right now.  They are the most northerly resort in Vermont and their offering is pretty bad.  But at least they are open.  You have to figure that a lot of people are cancelling Christmas reservations, even with discounts of up to 40% for Christmas week.  It's really unfortunate, but this is the gamble you take with the ski area business.


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## River19 (Dec 8, 2015)

But everyone else in New England is dealing with the same shit weather patterns and has been for the past few years.  They all knew snow making was going to be the new norm and many upgraded and are prepared to deliver on some semblance of a ski product.  What sucks is people buy a season pass and the season most likely will be 25% too short based on Q's choices.  So if those season pass holders want to ski over the holiday they will be paying for more passes somewhere else.

It was more important to get the EB5 hotel up as that was funded, snow making improvements would actually have had to come from Q's pocket and we know what goes in doesn't seem to come back out.....

Wildcat looked good today from what I saw in pics......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> But everyone else in New England is dealing with the same shit weather patterns and has been for the past few years.


You're right.  It's one thing to inherit a ski area with marginal snowmaking.  It's another thing to functionally cut back on the marginal snowmaking that you inherited - which is exactly what Quiros has done.  Cutting the ability to make snow shows the most basic lack of understanding of how to run a ski area in the northeast.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2015)

I 've said this before, but it's been quite a while, so I'll reiterate.  

Q Burke Resort will either be bought as an RPT* or eventually go bankrupt. 


*Rich person's toy


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## yeggous (Dec 8, 2015)

River19 said:


> But everyone else in New England is dealing with the same shit weather patterns and has been for the past few years.  They all knew snow making was going to be the new norm and many upgraded and are prepared to deliver on some semblance of a ski product.  What sucks is people buy a season pass and the season most likely will be 25% too short based on Q's choices.  So if those season pass holders want to ski over the holiday they will be paying for more passes somewhere else.
> 
> It was more important to get the EB5 hotel up as that was funded, snow making improvements would actually have had to come from Q's pocket and we know what goes in doesn't seem to come back out.....
> 
> Wildcat looked good today from what I saw in pics......



The Cat's strategy is always to bury and reinforce terrain before expanding. The terrain does not allow them to just dust and run. They may not have the most open acreage, but it is usually buried.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## faQ (Dec 9, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I 've said this before, but it's been quite a while, so I'll reiterate.
> 
> Q Burke Resort will either be bought as an RPT* or eventually go bankrupt.
> 
> ...



I think they are "filing it up to sell". Vail needs a eastern-mt-Brighton. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

The latest snow report is in.  They claim to have made snow from 10:00 am until 7:00 pm yesterday, which is really hard to believe - especially since they say that the temperature was between 30 and 34 degrees.  

They say that the made snow on Lower Warren's Way and Midway.  Midway is the trail that goes from the top of the Sherburne Express to the Mid-Burke Express.

Too add to the mystery, even though they claim to have made snow on two trails, they only had 15 guns going.

They are now hinting that opening day may be pushed back to December 19th.  Even that seems optimistic.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

I noticed something odd when I was looking at Burke's Facebook page.  The original press release stated that 20 fan guns were being installed.  Their Facebook post on December 8th says that "all 17 fan guns were fired up" on Warren's Way.

Does anyone know how many fan guns were actually installed?  Is it possible that there are three fan guns that are not on Warren's Way?


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## oldtimer (Dec 9, 2015)

not sure of the exact count, but there are at least 2 fan guns on midway, down in the hollow by the base of the black chair.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> not sure of the exact count, but there are at least 2 fan guns on midway, down in the hollow by the base of the black chair.



That's what I recall seeing as well...a couple by the Willoughby Quad one by the MBX.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 9, 2015)

Did they ever had out the complete snowmaking ugrade plans at that meeting last winter/spring/year? Curious as to what Phase 2 next summer will entail, as well as Phase 3 the following summer.

I hope the other 3 were placed on Midway, so they can at least keep the access from the SherburneX to the MidBurkeX well covered and able to be resurfaced quickly and easily (when the weather decides to cooperate).

Should have been one placed in front of the Hotel to cover the area from the Day lodge to the MBx, and the supposed magic carpet that is supposed to get everyone up the grade from the lodge to the lift...


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## ScottySkis (Dec 9, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I 've said this before, but it's been quite a while, so I'll reiterate.
> 
> Q Burke Resort will either be bought as an RPT* or eventually go bankrupt.
> 
> ...



Bankruptcy then maybe Lazzzo will buy the place.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Did they ever had out the complete snowmaking ugrade plans at that meeting last winter/spring/year? Curious as to what Phase 2 next summer will entail, as well as Phase 3 the following summer.


My recollection is that they handed out a letter that addressed what they were going to do this past summer.  There were no details beyond that.


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## River19 (Dec 9, 2015)

Hmmmm.......pull together a boatload of EB-5 investors, charge them $50K each for "handling", sell some land along the way from one shell company to another, build the hotel, while maintaining a razor thin P&L at the mountain and then claim the mgt company is bankrupt and ride away with all the management fees, property profit etc.....

Not saying that is what they are doing, but while everyone sits around waiting for skiing one has time to speculate and start internet rumors.....

You know what they say abut idle minds.........


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

Except that there is definitely a "keeping up appearances" show going on until the last EB-5 cow has been milked.


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## the original trailboss (Dec 9, 2015)

faQ said:


> I think they are "filing it up to sell". Vail needs a eastern-mt-Brighton.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Unfortunately, the next owner gets the 116-room to deal with/support


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## River19 (Dec 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Except that there is definitely a "keeping up appearances" show going on until the last EB-5 cow has been milked.



That is kinda my point; I don't want to believe that is the case, but on days like this, part of me goes.......what is the angle here?  

I ask about the angle because.......

If you were truly interested running a ski mountain, then heading into your second or third season, don't you think would have invested in at least learning how to run a ski area in the northeast?  That is where I smell something fishy.....

You can run a mountain lean, but something always suffers, we know that.....but here's the thing, if I were to have to run a mountain lean until my full vision of a packed hotel driving many more skier visits and F&B sales can be realized.......why would I do anything to impact the actual product people come to consume?  Meaning the snow making and mountain ops......

I would shut down my struggling F&B business for renovations, short staff ticket counters, rental shops, building maintenance etc. everything BUT do everything but sell a kidney to make sure our snow product is our calling card.  Because skiers will come to ski awesome trails with plenty of snow and great conditions and deal with limited to no additional services for a season or two as long as there is a plan.  

They don't give a shit about the comedy show in the bear den when every skier was stuck in the same lift line for the one continuous route from the top that was beaten to death by noon because you cut your actual ability to make snow.

My point is, anyone with an ounce of brains would quickly conclude that you would stop damn near every other part of the business before you let the snow product suffer.  Without a good snow product you have a building at the base of a mountain, not a ski resort.

Now if these are supposedly smart people, and I have no reason to believe they aren't, then if they haven't taken the most obvious path to success as a ski mountain, then perhaps their primary motivation wasn't the long term success of a ski resort after all.

And that is why I'm conflicted.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

My opinion...

Quiros Sr. is not a person who intends to lose money (except for lost potential thanks to Ary Jr.).  As soon as Q Burke becomes unprofitable, he will cease throwing money into it.  So long as there is sufficient EB-5 money to be had, and sufficient administrative fees, Quiros will keep Q Burke alive because he needs it to keep the EB-5 funds rolling.

But there are some troubling signs:
1) The state is paying much closer attention to these projects.  For example, it looks like the days of buying a parcel of real estate for a low price and selling it for an unjustifiable price to an EB-5 project are over.  
2) The SEC is breathing down their necks.  I would not rule out formal action by the SEC.  If the SEC takes formal action, the EB-5 gravy train is over.  Look for Stenger to enter into a cooperation deal if that happens.
3) EB-5 money isn't rolling in like it used to.  They have received a lot of bad press and there is a lot more competition for EB-5 funds.  Look at how AnC Bio and the downtown Newport project seem to be stalled.  This isn't just bad luck, IMHO.  You've also got later stage investors that have yet to be paid, and an unrealistic balloon payment coming for the phase-1 investors.  They can only keep all of those investors at bay for so long.

I think that this summer will be a real test.  There is no doubt that Quiros has steadfastly refused to do what was needed for the snowmaking system for the past three years.  They got lucky this past summer because they could pretend that they did something of value thanks to the fan guns that benefit Burke Mountain Academy.  My guess is that they will do just enough this summer to keep up appearances, but nothing more.  If this happens it's an indication that they are not invested in the mountain for the long term.  And once they start spending more than the EB-5 scheme brings in, my guess is that they will sell the resort.  

But what do I know... These are all just guesses on my part.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

Here is an update on the EB-5 legislation:
http://www.globest.com/news/12_1255...mnibus-Spending-Bill-Is-Settled-364145-1.html


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## Big Wave Dave (Dec 9, 2015)

some interesting points. But I like to simplify.

What if they just gambled and lost?

meaning- last xmas they lost revenue and ski days due to no snowmaking, poor conditions. We all know xmas week is the BIG week for a ski area. However, up until the weekend before, there was tons of natural snow. Biggest december in awhile.  Why commit funds to pay for snowmaking? whoops, because you really needed it. gamble and lose #1

Gamble and lose #2- try to snow the crowd over (apologize for that, it was too easy) with statements about new guns, and hope that this minimal investment will make a noticeable difference. Enter the warmest driest fall/early winter for decades. No ability to open when stated and slowly ramp uo to a xmas with alot of terrain. Lose #2.

This is not meant to negate statements about bad management, but I am willing to bet the truth bends more to this than some nefarious ponzi scheme orchestrated by the arch-villain Ary Sr.

Also, if the SEC sniffed something was off here, they would have shut it down and asked questions after the fact. At worst they will find some accounting irregularities and slap some wrists. They would never let a scheme continue to sell to new investors if they thought the deal was bad.


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## River19 (Dec 9, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> some interesting points. But I like to simplify.
> 
> What if they just gambled and lost?
> 
> ...



I believe in my heart this is closer to the truth.  I just don't want to believe they are that monumentally stupid.  It's a dumb-ass gamble.....best case, you barely keep up mid pack with the ski conditions as every other mountain would benefit, worst case.....you are among the poorest performers with your ass flapping in the wind as other mountains bury you in man made snow.....

While you eat all the Grand Opening Celebration Buffet shrimp by yourself in your new hotel.

A gamble like that with a $55M project?  Seems like a shitty gamble to me......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

That may very well be close to reality.

But the bottom line remains... Ary Sr. isn't in the business of losing money.  If he sees no light at the end of the tunnel I just don't see him holding onto Q Burke and throwing good money after bad.


.


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## zeke (Dec 9, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> some interesting points. But I like to simplify.
> 
> What if they just gambled and lost?
> 
> ...



so was AnC Bio another gamble that just didn't hit? i assumed it was because the company no longer existed in Korea where it was supposedly headquartered. how about the airport? or the Newport downtown project? 

if so and you're correct, these supposedly "intelligent businessmen" are the worst gamblers ever or God hates them.

Or there's something else behind the scenes. i'd be curious to know how much of the land for the above proposed EB5 projects Q bought–or attempted to buy–before they were announced.

correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm certain I saw a list of hotel costs in an EB5 breakdown and the land line item was more than i've heard Q paid for the resort. if that's accurate, the resort was basically free. EB5 funds are gravy. 

Not saying he and stenger are super-villains, just greedy b@sta@rds with no actual heart for anything about the mountain or its community. so to keep the cash coming in for now, they divert attention from the deplorable way the place is run and flat out lie about how much they have or will put into the place.

and I guess i don't have as much faith in the SEC as you do 2008 kinda jaded me.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

Here is a very good opinion piece about AnC Bio.  You know... the plant that "broke ground" in May.

http://vtdigger.org/2015/05/25/tim-loucks-anc-bio-a-groundbreaking-with-no-politicians/


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## faQ (Dec 9, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> Unfortunately, the next owner gets the 116-room to deal with/support



No doubt, it makes me nervous. Historically, deep pockets have come to the rescue. Now they have to be REALLY deep. What ever happened to "we're getting the Sochi snowmaking gurus"?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Dec 9, 2015)

faQ said:


> No doubt, it makes me nervous. Historically, deep pockets have come to the rescue. Now they have to be REALLY deep. What ever happened to "we're getting the Sochi snowmaking gurus"?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



And so let's just say you are one of the foremost firms that specializes in snow making......so good that Putin hires your firm to handle the winter games.......and then you send a group to Little ol' East Burke and you are thinking, well it might be worth the time given the size of the mountain and acreage and how the whole system needs to be replaced/built.  

Then you get here and tell the Qs what they would need and how much it would cost and then the Qs keep whittling down the Platinum package to the Gold to the Silver all the way to "what about if we just get like 20 fan guns for the BMA slope and call that 'Phase 1' and maybe we'll do more later".

Would you be really happy with your name being thrown around the product they have out there now?  

"Oh crap we ran out of water"

"We got 17 guns going and we're excited !!!!!"


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2015)

faQ said:


> No doubt, it makes me nervous. Historically, deep pockets have come to the rescue. Now they have to be REALLY deep. What ever happened to "we're getting the Sochi snowmaking gurus"?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



One has to wonder if fix and flip is the play here. 

For all the bravado about how great they are at business they've made a lot of bad decisions here.

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2015)

I've heard from a very good authority that there is no way they are opening for the weekend of the 19th and they know it.   Yet they are purposely bullshitting by insisting this is the planned on date.  Apparently they need to fix the upper mountain now.  There is just too much to do.  It's turned into a game of whack a mole.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've heard from a very good authority that there is no way they are opening for the weekend of the 19th and they know it.   Yet they are purposely bullshitting by insisting this is the planned on date.  Apparently they need to fix the upper mountain now.  There is just too much to do.  It's turned into a game of whack a mole.



So you're saying they lost too much snow? 


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So you're saying they lost too much snow?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I was told that they lost too much.  They don't have enough to push out and sufficiently cover the trail with.  They only made the bare minimum before moving on. That wasn't enough.

The annoying thing is that they are giving people false hope.


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## River19 (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I was told that they lost too much.  They don't have enough to push out and sufficiently cover the trail with.  They only made the bare minimum before moving on. That wasn't enough.
> 
> The annoying thing is that they are giving people false hope.



And how many times can they move the date before people say "to hell with you"......

BTW, what is the refund policy on season passes......assume you are stuck with them.....right?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

The webcam picture is pretty ugly.  There isn't a single snowflake in the vicinity of the Mid-Burke Express.  So not only do they need to finish Warren's Way and refresh the upper part of the mountain, but they also need to make snow so people can get to the chair lift.  There is definitely a lot of work left to be done.

And once that less than ideal top-to-bottom run is open, they will likely turn their back on the main mountain so they can get the J-Bar and lower mountain open.  

Cold weather can't come soon enough!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

River19 said:


> BTW, what is the refund policy on season passes......assume you are stuck with them.....right?


I'm sure that people are stuck with them.  I've said before that it would be a REAL good gesture to allow skiing at Jay Peak until Burke opens.  But this good-will is obviously not happening.  You will ski when Mother Nature tells Ary that it's time to ski - and not one day sooner.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2015)

Out of curiosity, when do you all start voting with your wallets?

In asking that I'm not suggesting to stop the criticism; it's all well warranted.

When Wildcat was going through similar challenges and giving lame excuses, I took a year off and skied elsewhere until they proved themselves. 

At some point many of you should switch to Cannon or Bretton Woods for a season


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## River19 (Dec 10, 2015)

As Long as Wilcat and others keep posting pics like this:





While Burke looks like a pile of Mud and grass like this.....



There will be some angry folks......and very little bump to the winter economy in East Burke....


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2015)

Understandably angry as I said.  I just eventually get tired of it and spend my money where I am more pleased with the product.


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## faQ (Dec 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Understandably angry as I said.  I just eventually get tired of it and spend my money where I am more pleased with the product.



Good point but when you live really close to your home-mountain, commuting to and from the next closest mountain isn't an option when you get a couple free hours to make some turns. If you were a weekend warrior, then maybe.  They have got the local short-session skiers by the sack.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

faQ said:


> Good point but when you live really close to your home-mountain, commuting to and from the next closest mountain isn't an option when you get a couple free hours to make some turns. If you were a weekend warrior, then maybe.  They have got the local short-session skiers by the sack.


You hit the nail on the head.  It's easy to vote with your wallet when you live a couple of hours away from the mountain.  I would gladly switch to Cannon, and thought very long and hard about doing so.  The deal breaker for me was that my children's friends all ski at Burke.  The same can be said for my friends.  Many of them live 10 minutes from Burke, but about 40 minutes from Cannon, so they aren't about to switch.  I guess I picked the wrong friends.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

Today's snow report says that they are still shooting for opening on the weekend of the 19th, but they aren't sure whether it will be Saturday or Sunday.  My guess is that they see some snowmaking opportunities just prior to that weekend so they are hoping to be able to sneak in under the wire.  Again, my source tells me that while this may be their hope, absent a radical change to the forecast they know darn well that it's a pipe dream.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2015)

To each their own, but given what's going on up there, it would be a fairly easy decision for me to make the switch to Cannon with those drive times.  I'd imagine you wouldn't be the only family in your area making that choice and your kids would still likely have some friends to ski with.


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## halfpintvt (Dec 10, 2015)

Burke Mountain seen from Darling Hill Rd at 7:45 AM.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You hit the nail on the head.  It's easy to vote with your wallet when you live a couple of hours away from the mountain.  I would gladly switch to Cannon, and thought very long and hard about doing so.  The deal breaker for me was that my children's friends all ski at Burke.  The same can be said for my friends.  Many of them live 10 minutes from Burke, but about 40 minutes from Cannon, so they aren't about to switch.  I guess I picked the wrong friends.



First world problems


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm not quite sure what your point is.  Am I not supposed to think about relevant factors when I decide where to ski?  I see lots of skiing discussion in this skiing forum.  Pretty much any consideration about skiing could be categorized as a first world problem.  So I'm not sure why you felt the need to single my particular comment out of thousands of others - unless you merely intended to be antagonistic.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not quite sure what your point is.  Am I not supposed to think about relevant factors when I decide where to ski?  I see lots of skiing discussion in this skiing forum.  Pretty much any consideration about skiing could be categorized as a first world problem.  So I'm not sure why you felt the need to single my particular comment out of thousands of others - unless you merely intended to be antagonistic.



Was your humor-ectomy considered elective surgery?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Was your humor-ectomy considered elective surgery?


Sorry.  It just didn't come across that way - especially since it came out of nowhere in a discussion that you weren't partaking in.  I guess I'll look again and try to find the humor in it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2015)

Sounds like ski season can't start soon enough....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like ski season can't start soon enough....


Definitely true.  While I was very displeased, I was pretty accepting of the situation until I learned that they are not at all likely to even open by the 19th.  Effectively losing an entire month of skiing due to snowmaking incompetency is a hard pill to swallow.  A couple of weeks is a lot easier to deal with than a whole month.


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## ScottySkis (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Definitely true.  While I was very displeased, I was pretty accepting of the situation until I learned that they are not at all likely to even open by the 19th.  Effectively losing an entire month of skiing due to snowmaking incompetency is a hard pill to swallow.  A couple of weeks is a lot easier to deal with than a whole month.



Is jay close?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Is jay close?



Twice as far as Cannon.  


.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 10, 2015)

I can definately see wanting to still ski Burke when you live right there.Plus,For me,a big reason I've been at Cannon for so long is the hundreds of friends I have there.Makes sense to me.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

What are the crowds like at Cannon on a typical mid-winter weekend?  That's the other hesitation I've had.  I can't imagine that it's nearly as bad as Loon, but I've always suspected that it's more crowded than at Burke.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What are the crowds like at Cannon on a typical mid-winter weekend?  That's the other hesitation I've had.  I can't imagine that it's nearly as bad as Loon, but I've always suspected that it's more crowded than at Burke.



Less crowded than Burke.   In a way...  
There are definitely more people at Cannon, but there are also many more lift options and terrain pods. So while there are more people at Cannon there is less of a crowd skiing one lift.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Less crowded than Burke.   In a way...
> There are definitely more people at Cannon, but there are also many more lift options and terrain pods. So while there are more people at Cannon there is less of a crowd skiing one lift.



Hmm... I was expecting the opposite answer.  It's funny how Loon can be so packed but Cannon is so much better.  They aren't that far apart, after all.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Hmm... I was expecting the opposite answer.  It's funny how Loon can be so packed but Cannon is so much better.  They aren't that far apart, after all.



I know a lot of Loon skiers. They say they fear Cannon. Loon also offers a lot more (condos, apres, parties, etc). Cannon really only offers terrain. And it's terrain that has an intimidating reputation (for better or worse).

Like Burke, Cannon is rarely crowded. When it is crowded it sucks, but probably because we're not used to it. Same for Burke.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

Be aware though. If mismanagement and snow making failures are your primary gripe against Burke,  Cannon is the LAST place I would choose as a solution. Those are new issues for Burke...they are entrenched culture at Cannon.


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## wtcobb (Dec 10, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I know a lot of Loon skiers. They say they fear Cannon. Loon also offers a lot more (condos, apres, parties, etc). Cannon really only offers terrain. And it's terrain that has an intimidating reputation (for better or worse).
> 
> Like Burke, Cannon is rarely crowded. When it is crowded it sucks, but probably because we're not used to it. Same for Burke.



Yup. Lincoln vs. Franconia is a world apart for families. Unless they really like the DT.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Be aware though. If mismanagement and snow making failures are your primary gripe against Burke,  Cannon is the LAST place I would choose as a solution. Those are new issues for Burke...they are entrenched culture at Cannon.



Very true, but which mountain is open right now.


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## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Very true, but which mountain is open right now.



Believe me, I'm stoked that Cannon only opened one week later than planned.  And their 1.5 ways down are WAY better then none.  We are all lucky to have anything to slide on when the natural ebbs and flows of New England weather trend more towards the ebb than the flow. 

I'm just saying that VTK (or others) shouldn't move on down to Cannon and expect pillows of manmade and a management that gives a F about smart decision making.  Cannon can be so bad on that front that I've often considered voting with my wallet and heading up to Burke instead.  Just kind of confirming that we all have a love/hate with our home hill.  But wadda ya gonna do!?!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I can definately see wanting to still ski Burke when you live right there.Plus,For me,a big reason I've been at Cannon for so long is the hundreds of friends I have there.Makes sense to me.



+ 1


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

PBS article. 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/is-this-job-creating-foreign-investment-project-too-good-to-be-true/


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

This quote was concerning:
"No, they gave us all IOUs. And if you look at the company that the IOUs are drawn against, our research suggests that that company, Jay Peak Management, Inc., has no assets, no income and no way of servicing the IOUs for any of the investors."


.


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## oldtimer (Dec 11, 2015)

In the immortal words of Captain Renault--

 "I am *shocked*—*shocked............."*




VTKilarney said:


> This quote was concerning:
> "No, they gave us all IOUs. And if you look at the company that the IOUs are drawn against, our research suggests that that company, Jay Peak Management, Inc., has no assets, no income and no way of servicing the IOUs for any of the investors."
> 
> 
> .


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This quote was concerning:
> "No, they gave us all IOUs. And if you look at the company that the IOUs are drawn against, our research suggests that that company, Jay Peak Management, Inc., has no assets, no income and no way of servicing the IOUs for any of the investors."
> 
> 
> .



Yeah, but you own a piece of Jay's AWESOMENESS!


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## River19 (Dec 11, 2015)

Did I hear that right or is there a real question where $60M has been spent for the ANC Bio piece?  $60M?  On what?

Also, if the ANC thing falls through......and no jobs are created from the failed project, can Stenger and Q just throw their hands up and say "it's unfortunate but there is risk in any investment and sadly we will not be able to provide a return for our investors in this project"....and walk away with the $50K in Mgt fees per investor as well as profit on some of those lovely "land deals" that Q received?

"In lieu of repayment, can we interest you in a dormant fan gun as a momento of our time together?"


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2015)

River19 said:


> Did I hear that right or is there a real question where $60M has been spent for the ANC Bio piece?  $60M?  On what?
> 
> Also, if the ANC thing falls through......and no jobs are created from the failed project, can Stenger and Q just throw their hands up and say "it's unfortunate but there is risk in any investment and sadly we will not be able to provide a return for our investors in this project"....and walk away with the $50K in Mgt fees per investor as well as profit on some of those lovely "land deals" that Q received?
> 
> "In lieu of repayment, can we interest you in a dormant fan gun as a momento of our time together?"



I think a large chuck of the $60 million went to purchasing the land from Ary Quiros.
Edited:
Quiros bought the property for $3 million and then sold the property for $6 million.
I'm not sure if the $3 million markup included the work that took place removing a large part of the old building. My guess is that it didn't.


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## River19 (Dec 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think a large chuck of the $60 million went to purchasing the land from Ary Quiros.
> Edited:
> Quiros bought the property for $3 million and then sold the property for $6 million.
> I'm not sure if the $3 million markup included the work that took place removing a large part of the old building. My guess is that it didn't.



I'm not as familiar with the ANC/failed Window site......is it another steaming hole in the ground or did they actually build a building?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think a large chuck of the $60 million went to purchasing the land from Ary Quiros.
> Edited:
> Quiros bought the property for $3 million and then sold the property for $6 million.
> I'm not sure if the $3 million markup included the work that took place removing a large part of the old building. My guess is that it didn't.



One correction.  Quiros allegedly bought a larger piece of property for $3 million and sold a small piece of it for $6 million.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think a large chuck of the $60 million went to purchasing the land from Ary Quiros.
> Edited:
> Quiros bought the property for $3 million and then sold the property for $6 million.
> I'm not sure if the $3 million markup included the work that took place removing a large part of the old building. My guess is that it didn't.



Come on guys, he is so worth it.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

Not sure about the sale of the property for 6 million. Still listed as being owned by him/his company at a purchase price of 3,150,000 in 2011. Nothing in the records after that. Decent amount of work has been done on the property since 2011.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Not sure about the sale of the property for 6 million. Still listed as being owned by him/his company at a purchase price of 3,150,000 in 2011. Nothing in the records after that. Decent amount of work has been done on the property since 2011.



I know that the state intervened regarding the sale of the property.  I'm not sure at what stage, though.  I recall reading that they demanded an independent appraisal.  It was widely reported that the sale price for the smaller piece was $6 million after he had purchased the larger piece for $3 million.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

Well, my source was indeed correct.  The top of the mountain needs fixing.  Here is the latest report:

Well, it's no secret New England is experiencing a weather roller coaster and Q Burke is hanging on tight.  The good news is, the extended forecast looks favorable with temperatures finally feeling like they belong in December.  With that being said, it will be a stretch to open Friday, December 18th and realistically, we are looking at opening to the public that Saturday (19th), Sunday (20th), or even early the next week.

Once the temperatures drop (and the forecast suggests they should drop by Wednesday evening), we will run as much as possible on Lower Warren's Way to get BMA online.  Once we are able to open the POMA lift, we will move back to Upper/Lower Willoughby, Upper Bear Den and Midway to get one trail open off of the summit. 

I applaud them for communicating, even if they are being somewhat optimistic.  It appears to me that the opening will be a POMA opening only.  It looks like it will be a race to see if they can get a trail open off of the Mid-Burke Express in time for Christmas.


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## Smellytele (Dec 11, 2015)

latest email:







[h=1]Do a little snow dance...[/h]




 Well, it's no secret New England is experiencing a weather roller coaster and Q Burke is hanging on tight.  The good news is, the extended forecast looks favorable with temperatures finally feeling like they belong in December.  With that being said, it will be a stretch to open Friday, December 18th and realistically, we are looking at opening to the public that Saturday (19th), Sunday (20th), or even early the next week.

Once the temperatures drop (and the forecast suggests they should drop by Wednesday evening), we will run as much as possible on Lower Warren's Way to get BMA online.  Once we are able to open the POMA lift, we will move back to Upper/Lower Willoughby, Upper Bear Den and Midway to get one trail open off of the summit.

We encourage everyone to attend our Season Pass Holder meeting scheduled for next Saturday, December 19th where we will give updates for the season, continued plan for snow making, and answer any questions.  If we are open for skiing/riding, plan is to have the meeting in the Mid Burke Lodge at 5pm.  If we are not open, we will have it at 10am in the Kingdom Room.

*12 Deals of Christmas begin this Sunday, December 11th.  *Deals include savings on lift ticket packs, gift cards, learn to ski / ride packages, private lessons, and retail.  Click here for complete details on all available deals and their applicable offer date(s).

Come out and support Northwoods Stewardship Center this Sunday as we host their annual fundraising event upstairs in the Tamarack.  Festivities begin at 4:30 with live music by the Ira Friedman Trio. 


*Lots of activities planned for the month of December including:*


Saturday, December 19th:  Ugly Sweater Party upstairs in the Tamarack
Sunday, December 20th:  Gingerbread House Decorating with Santa and Wagon Rides
Saturday, December 26th:  Dinner & Comedy
New Year's Eve 2016 with the Wicked Smart Horn Band.
Tickets are on sale now and complete details can be found at qburke.com/events.  
 


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## oldtimer (Dec 11, 2015)

Given the current forecast, I can see Willoughby/foxes/warrens off the top for christmas with the guns just starting on one run (terrain park?) on the lower mountain on the morning of Dec 26th.    can you say grim?


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I know that the state intervened regarding the sale of the property.  I'm not sure at what stage, though.  I recall reading that they demanded an independent appraisal.  It was widely reported that the sale price for the smaller piece was $6 million after he had purchased the larger piece for $3 million.



I remember reading that also, just not sure how reliable the source was. ITs odd that so much work is occurring at the property, but it is still listed as being owned by one of his companies. Plus, the AncBio facility is marketed as being a 25 acre campus, the same size as the property Quiros purchased.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

mbedle said:


> I remember reading that also, just not sure how reliable the source was. ITs odd that so much work is occurring at the property, but it is still listed as being owned by one of his companies. Plus, the AncBio facility is marketed as being a 25 acre campus, the same size as the property Quiros purchased.



How much work is going on at the property?  I thought that there was some earth moving, but not much more.  But I really haven't seen it.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Given the current forecast, I can see Willoughby/foxes/warrens off the top for christmas with the guns just starting on one run (terrain park?) on the lower mountain on the morning of Dec 26th.    can you say grim?



If that's the case, this would kill their lesson sales.  They really need to get the lesson hill open, but it takes a lot of snow to do that.

I don't think that they will get the park open first on the lower mountain.  It takes a LOT of snow to get the park open, and I can see a lot of people being pissed off if only the park is open.

But the bottom line is that I really don't know what they are going to do.  The only thing I know is that no matter what they are going to do, they are going to have to sacrifice something else.  I mentioned earlier that my inside source said that it's a game of whack-a-mole at this point.  This seems to be a very accurate description.


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## oldtimer (Dec 11, 2015)

Whack a mole it is-   under "normal" circumstances I would recommend that they call the equipment rental lads for 2 compressors and get the cross plumbing sorted out over the next 7 warms days.  BUT so what if you have more air if you are marginal on water?

like I said, a grim picture.  I bet a certain gentleman who loves the mountain dearly, and has done much to keep it alive, is very glad that neither he nor his friends own it right now.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

A couple more thoughts:

1) Does the forecast really say that temperatures will drop off on Wednesday?  That's not what I'm seeing.
2) This illustrates just how bad the snowmaking situation is at Q Burke.  Depsite making snow for weeks, the best they will be able to do on opening day is to open a small trail on the main part of the mountain.  In other words, even the very few spots where they have blown snow, they couldn't lay down a sufficient base.  You have very few guns blowing on very little terrain.  That's a bad recipe.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Whack a mole it is-   under "normal" circumstances I would recommend that they call the equipment rental lads for 2 compressors and get the cross plumbing sorted out over the next 7 warms days.  BUT so what if you have more air if you are marginal on water?


My understanding is that they have plenty of water now.  But didn't they tear down the building that would have allowed them to hook up rented compressors?


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

As far as their opening date, is this really that out of the norm for a resort the size of Q Burke? I vaguely remember reading that this place pulls about 75K skier visits a year. Is that correct? With those kind of numbers, their efforts seem appropriate given their responsibility to BMA. As far as equipment, I think someone posted some comment indicating that Q Burke would double the snowmaking efforts/equipment under the new owners. Didn't they build a new pump house on the mountain and purchase 20 fan guns? With what they had before, that seems to be more than double. As far as compresses air, has that really played a part at the resort'a ability to open this winter? I looked at some old screen shots from burkes website, and this all doesn't seem to be that out of the ordinary, considering the weather.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How much work is going on at the property?  I thought that there was some earth moving, but not much more.  But I really haven't seen it.



Yeah, pretty sure that is it, with stormwater BMPs. Typically under a leasing option, a property owner will get it pad ready. Under a outright purchase, it is odd to have a seller complete pad ready activities. Maybe Newport online records are not up to date.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Whack a mole it is-   under "normal" circumstances I would recommend that they call the equipment rental lads for 2 compressors and get the cross plumbing sorted out over the next 7 warms days.  BUT so what if you have more air if you are marginal on water?
> 
> like I said, a grim picture.  I bet a certain gentleman who loves the mountain dearly, and has done much to keep it alive, is very glad that neither he nor his friends own it right now.



+ 1

I do bet that that certain gentleman has mixed feelings about the predicament of the mountain.


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## dlague (Dec 11, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What are the crowds like at Cannon on a typical mid-winter weekend?  That's the other hesitation I've had.  I can't imagine that it's nearly as bad as Loon, but I've always suspected that it's more crowded than at Burke.



Not even close comparing crowds at Cannon to Loon.  Very rarely have o seen huge crowds at Cannon and it was my first year on a season pass.

But Cannon sucks!  You can ask Puck it, Cannonball, JDRoma, fcksummer and others.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Dec 11, 2015)

dlague said:


> But Cannon sucks!  You can ask Puck it, Cannonball, JDRoma, fcksummer and others.



Doesn't even come close to the suckage at K-town.


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## halfpintvt (Dec 12, 2015)

Saturday afternoon.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2015)

Those photos are depressing, but thanks for sharing them.

What's shocking about these photos is that they REALLY tried to blow snow.  I get that other areas haven't made an effort because of the weather, but Q Burke made an all out effort and this is the best they have to show for it.  

Today's email clarified that once they get a single run open from the top they will be turning the guns on the lower mountain.  If history is any indication, it will be several days before begin making snow on the main mountain again.  This year may be a little better because Dashney Mile (the terrain park) is not scheduled for snowmaking when they make snow on the Sherburne area.


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## oldtimer (Dec 12, 2015)

depressing, as is the long range forecast.  Had a good long bike ride today.  May have to like that for several more weeks.  urghhhhhhh


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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2015)

Karma for Q is a bitch.


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## River19 (Dec 13, 2015)

Drove up and took some pics this morning, looks the same or worse than the pics posted above.  Nothing at all down by the Mid Burke really......and plenty of grass.  Looks like May 13th not Dec 13th.

Cannon was skiing today when I drove by, nothing on the Notch side has snow, just that main run from the top along the ridge.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2015)

Could you tell how much damage there is above Warren's Way?


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 13, 2015)

Sure doesn't look like they had 17 fanguns going on the training hill. According to the pictures anyhow. And by the wording of that email, it still sounds like they can't run the fans and the air/water system at the same time. Really?


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## River19 (Dec 13, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Could you tell how much damage there is above Warren's Way?
> 
> 
> .



It looked May like, which is to say, not good.  Lots of grass and lower Warrens looked a little worse than yesterday had spotty snow on 50% of the right side, the other side was 100% grass.

It looks the same or slightly worse than in halfpintvt's pics from yesterday.  I thought they were making snow last night......?  It was 30 degrees at our cabin at 900' in Lyndonville.....but the next few days still look "meh".

Although, I didn't see any snow remaining near the MBE base at all.....in his pics there was "some" I didn't see it.

That mountain isn't going to have anything worth mentioning opened in the next 2 weeks from what I can see.

I took a look from the base of the mountain at the lodge parking lot and it might as well have been biking season with all the grass I saw.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 13, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Sure doesn't look like they had 17 fanguns going on the training hill. According to the pictures anyhow. And by the wording of that email, it still sounds like they can't run the fans and the air/water system at the same time. Really?



Very good point.  They have yet to run both the fan guns and the other guns at the same time.  It looks like for some reason they can't.  So in reality the fan guns weren't an improvement at all - at least not in the way they needed to be.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2015)

So no skiing so far.  No Hotel either.  Think about how much revenue has been lost.  And a lot of it is due to bad weather.  But some of it is, like Sugarbush, the complete inability of them to take advantage of cold snaps to make enough snow to get going.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TB I hate to tell you but many areas have had a hard time getting going  in New England. Some may even close again after this coming weeks  weather.  Sugarbush has actually done a good job getting both  Organgrinder & Ripcord open, not to mention top to bottom. They're probably offering the most challenging trails available in all of New England right now, takes a bit of snow to cover them. Burke is a different story, don't compare the two. You're way off base doing so.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> TB I hate to tell you but many areas have had a hard time getting going  in New England. Some may even close again after this coming weeks  weather.  Sugarbush has actually done a good job getting both  Organgrinder & Ripcord open, not to mention top to bottom. They're probably offering the most challenging trails available in all of New England right now, takes a bit of snow to cover them. Burke is a different story, don't compare the two. You're way off base doing so.



+1


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2015)

Heard from the marketing girl at burke on Saturday, at an event hosted by the tour company I use, that they are hoping to have the hotel open by MLK.  

By her presentation you would think all was perfect in Qutopia...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Heard from the marketing girl at burke on Saturday, at an event hosted by the tour company I use, that they are hoping to have the hotel open by MLK.
> 
> By her presentation you would think all was perfect in Qutopia...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> TB I hate to tell you but many areas have had a hard time getting going  in New England. Some may even close again after this coming weeks  weather.  Sugarbush has actually done a good job getting both  Organgrinder & Ripcord open, not to mention top to bottom. They're probably offering the most challenging trails available in all of New England right now, takes a bit of snow to cover them. Burke is a different story, don't compare the two. You're way off base doing so.



Off base?  I don't think so.  Let me explain.  

First, yes, weather has been a major challenge.  That said, there ARE places open.  My comment has to do with BOTH areas REDUCING their snowmaking capacity in recent years.  The coincidence is uncanny really.  Both got rid of air compressors when they built hotels.  That meant that they could not put on as many guns at once when weather was favorable.  Granted Burke has suffered more.  Both have responded by using Low-E guns or options that require less air when the obvious solution would be to rent their compressors again.  

This criticism of SB (which I love) is not new.  We've talked about it a lot on SkiMRV and the SB thread, particularly in seasons where there were marginal temps at best early on.  Sugarbush is just slower at responding than other resorts to which it compares itself...in particular the other "S" one up the road.  

In Burke's case it is hard to know what the difference would be since they've always been conservative blowing snow.  I think that they might have the Poma (barely) going if they had the same air capacity.  They might not.  As we've discussed there was a legitimate water shortage.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 14, 2015)

LOL

She was nice, and it certainly wasn't the forum to "blindside" her with questions about all of the issues discussed for the last139 pages.  

It is ridiculous tough to listen to an adult say "QBurke" over and over during a 5 minute marketing presentation.  It sounds Just as bad as it has in my head since they changed the name.  It just further reinforces the pretentiousness of the Quiros clan.  

1 other thing she mentioned.  She made it sound like QBurke and Kingdom Trails had this awesome relationship.  wasn't it completely dissolved?  I'm sure this was covered on page 90 or something...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> LOL
> 
> She was nice, and it certainly wasn't the forum to "blindside" her with questions about all of the issues discussed for the last139 pages.
> 
> ...



I'd say it is a detente for right now.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Off base?  I don't think so.  Let me explain.
> 
> First, yes, weather has been a major challenge.  That said, there ARE places open.  My comment has to do with BOTH areas REDUCING their snowmaking capacity in recent years.  The coincidence is uncanny really.  Both got rid of air compressors when they built hotels.  That meant that they could not put on as many guns at once when weather was favorable.  Granted Burke has suffered more.  Both have responded by using Low-E guns or options that require less air when the obvious solution would be to rent their compressors again.
> 
> ...


Sugarbush has increased snowmaking capacity not reduced it. They increased the diameter of piping & added new pumps to increase the amount of water they can pump up the hill. All VT. areas have reduced the amount of compressors needed by purchasing low-e guns, not just Sugarbush. Even the almighty Killington which rents most of their compressors has reduced the number of compressors they rent by about 1/3. Killington only owns a small in house electrical compressor. Most of the compressors they use are rented & are diesel powered which gives them an advantage when electrical rates skyrocket. They rent them instead of buying them because of the constant changes in regulations regarding diesel power. It's cheaper to rent them than to constantly upgrade them every year to meet new regulation standards. Jeff Temple, the head of mountain operations at Killington, discussed this on another site last year. So yes I still think you are off base comparing Burke to Sugarbush.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush has increased snowmaking capacity not reduced it. They increased the diameter of piping & added new pumps to increase the amount of water they can pump up the hill. All VT. areas have reduced the amount of compressors needed by purchasing low-e guns, not just Sugarbush. Even the almighty Killington which rents most of their compressors has reduced the number of compressors they rent by about 1/3. Killington only owns a small in house electrical compressor. Most of the compressors they use are rented & are diesel powered which gives them an advantage when electrical rates skyrocket. They rent them instead of buying them because of the constant changes in regulations regarding diesel power. It's cheaper to rent them than to constantly upgrade them every year to meet new regulation standards. Jeff Temple, the head of mountain operations at Killington, discussed this on another site last year. So yes I still think you are off base comparing Burke to Sugarbush.



Have they increased air capacity to where it was before 2006 or equivalent?


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## Big Wave Dave (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush has increased snowmaking capacity not reduced it. They increased the diameter of piping & added new pumps to increase the amount of water they can pump up the hill. All VT. areas have reduced the amount of compressors needed by purchasing low-e guns, not just Sugarbush. Even the almighty Killington which rents most of their compressors has reduced the number of compressors they rent by about 1/3. Killington only owns a small in house electrical compressor. Most of the compressors they use are rented & are diesel powered which gives them an advantage when electrical rates skyrocket. They rent them instead of buying them because of the constant changes in regulations regarding diesel power. It's cheaper to rent them than to constantly upgrade them every year to meet new regulation standards. Jeff Temple, the head of mountain operations at Killington, discussed this on another site last year. So yes I still think you are off base comparing Burke to Sugarbush.



a ha! so burke, in line with peers, dropped compressors due to fan guns that no longer required them. You seem to have knowledge that others posting on here do not, who keep insisting that that the lack of compressors was in effect a reduction of capacity decision. Would appreciate any further info you have on this as it would negate at least 200 existing posts about how Burke really didnt add capacity . It would have seemed very odd to me that Burke claimed snowmaking improvements if not having additional compressors is really the linchpin of capacity. thanks.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> a ha! so burke, in line with peers, dropped compressors due to fan guns that no longer required them. You seem to have knowledge that others posting on here do not, who keep insisting that that the lack of compressors was in effect a reduction of capacity decision. Would appreciate any further info you have on this as it would negate at least 200 existing posts about how Burke really didnt add capacity . It would have seemed very odd to me that Burke claimed snowmaking improvements if not having additional compressors is really the linchpin of capacity. thanks.



It is the issue.  One has to understand the context of the situation--in this case Burke dropped their air capacity by 2/3.  They have less air capacity for their system that requires air and water.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Have they increased air capacity to where it was before 2006 or equivalent?



No need to. You can run 50 snow logic guns with the same air as 1 ratnick. Water is the limiting factor now (which they've increased) not air.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 14, 2015)

Burke can run anywhere between 15-30 guns at once.  This is less than before they reduced compressor capacity.  They've added water pumping capacity, so that's not the problem.  

But it may be something else.  The one new piece of the puzzle that doesn't fit is why they haven't run any other guns when the fan guns have been running.  

The one thing that can't be disputed is that, for a resort looking to fill an expensive hotel, their snowmaking is WAY behind what it needs to be - whatever the reason.


----------



## River19 (Dec 14, 2015)

Plus with Q' Sr and Jr there is always enough hot air on the mountain to power anything requiring air...........

"Wait, we need water to make snow?......fine, put in a  'Phase 1B' and put an August 2016 groundbreaking on the new Q'holding Pond"


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke can run anywhere between 15-30 guns at once.  This is less than before they reduced compressor capacity.  They've added water pumping capacity, so that's not the problem.



On the other hand Sugarbush has run as many as 92 guns at once this year before maxing out water capacity.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> On the other hand Sugarbush has run as many as 92 guns at once this year before maxing out water capacity.



Right, but that's not the point.


----------



## the original trailboss (Dec 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke can run anywhere between 15-30 guns at once.  This is less than before they reduced compressor capacity.  They've added water pumping capacity, so that's not the problem.
> 
> But it may be something else.  The one new piece of the puzzle that doesn't fit is why they haven't run any other guns when the fan guns have been running.
> 
> The one thing that can't be disputed is that, for a resort looking to fill an expensive hotel, their snowmaking is WAY behind what it needs to be - whatever the reason.




Several ex-Burke employees have told me that water storage capability is a huge factor, and, that it has been discussed many times in the past, including in various prior development plans. In fact, the Ginn golf course included a huge storage pond to be used for snowmaking in the winter and for golf course irrigation in the summer.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 14, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but that's not the point.


What is the point? Sugarbush doesn't have the most awesome snowmaking system in New England? Sheesh!!!

Were they ever able to run 92 guns at once before?

Even in 2006?

You're losing me.

You belong in Utah. Save us your expertise.


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 15, 2015)

IF I had planned to rent or stay in a hotel anywhere in New England for the Christmas week I would cancel today.  Even with a penalty.  The upcoming holiday is going to be an epic suck in terms of skiable terrain.  One 72 hour snowmaking window between now and New Years.  I am reminded of a few winters through the mid-80's.

Burke:  lower training hill AND?

plenty of biking and work at the northern homestead for me over the break.


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## River19 (Dec 15, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> IF I had planned to rent or stay in a hotel anywhere in New England for the Christmas week I would cancel today.  Even with a penalty.  The upcoming holiday is going to be an epic suck in terms of skiable terrain.  One 72 hour snowmaking window between now and New Years.  I am reminded of a few winters through the mid-80's.
> 
> Burke:  lower training hill AND?
> 
> plenty of biking and work at the northern homestead for me over the break.


Over the weekend a few buddies and I were commenting on how we can't remember the last time we actually were able to hunt up to the season close of 12/31 in such bare ground conditions.  The dogs are still loving it.

I think the fat bike might get more bare ground and mud work than snow......

To a certain extent the absolute horrible weather for snow has softened the crap storm that would be coming Q's way from pass holders, or at least postponed it.  

I think once the weather turns favorable for snow making (assuming it does at some point), the fact that most other mountains can get terrain open much quicker than Q could cause the frustration to bubble back up however.  With only 15-20 guns able to be run concurrently, that won't get things open too quickly.

But maybe they pull a rabbit out of their hat.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

The ground is pretty warm and wet right now.  Once they get snowmaking going again, I wonder how much man-made snow will be lost to melting because of the ground temperature.


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## oldtimer (Dec 15, 2015)

after last night, the ground in my yard is April/May like gush.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 15, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> after last night, the ground in my yard is April/May like gush.



After a couple days to allow the ground to dry out, Burke should reopen the lift served bike park. :idea:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

Opening day now officially pushed back to December 25th or 26th.

My source tells me that they have known this for a while, but have been jerking people along.

We've now officially lost a month of skiing from the time they said they would open.  I'm not blaming the weather on Burke, but just saying that the weather and lack of snowmaking has now had a serious impact.  One month of potential skiing is now lost forever.

Even if they can get open by Christmas, they are going to have a heck of a time staying open through the vacation week.  As fast as they can make snow, the warm temps are going to start attacking it.


----------



## River19 (Dec 15, 2015)

I think they just keep bumping it out 7 days hoping the weather reporting is wrong, but even the most optimistic of people would have to look at the 15day forecast and admit there is a very small window of a couple nights over the next 2 weeks to even make snow, let alone make enough to open anything by a snowman making contest.

Again, you can't blame Q for the weather, but we all know that if/when a 7 day stretch of true "winter" conditions comes along, they won't be able to blow enough to get a competitive mix of terrain open.  IMHO other mountains with more snow making capacity will easily outpace the 15-20 gun snowball fight Q has going on.

I hope I am wrong for the sake of the local economy.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

My biggest fear at this point is the impact lost revenues will have on plans to upgrade snowmaking.  They can't rely on BMA every year.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Opening day now officially pushed back to December 25th or 26th.
> 
> My source tells me that they have known this for a while, but have been jerking people along.
> 
> ...



It's a tough call for them.  The weather can change and they don't want to over or under promise.  Hate to be the marketing person on this one.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> After a couple days to allow the ground to dry out, Burke should reopen the lift served bike park. :idea:



Don't laugh.  I wonder what they will do to try and offer something for entertainment.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

Well, they have gingerbread house making this weekend.  And an ugly sweater party.  

All is not lost.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, they have gingerbread house making this weekend.  And an ugly sweater party.
> 
> All is not lost.



I dare you to buy a Q hoodie or sweater from the store and enter the contest.  At last check there were PLENTY of Q items in the store (seriously).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't laugh.  I wonder what they will do to try and offer something for entertainment.



Who's laughing? I'm actually pretty serious about this. Why not try it over the holiday week if the weather stays snowless? Only lift served MTB in the East and maybe the US for a week? Or two?


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## wtcobb (Dec 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I dare you to buy a Q hoodie or sweater from the store and enter the contest.  At last check there were PLENTY of Q items in the store (seriously).



The winner gets a free stay in the hotel! Redeem for your stay during the 2017 season.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I dare you to buy a Q hoodie or sweater from the store and enter the contest.  At last check there were PLENTY of Q items in the store (seriously).


That is hilarious!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 15, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> a ha! so burke, in line with peers, dropped compressors due to fan guns that no longer required them.



Ummm... No. Burke dumped the compressors long before they installed the fan guns.


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## River19 (Dec 15, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Ummm... No. Burke dumped the compressors long before they installed the fan guns.



didn't they fail to rent compressors last year?  and the fan guns were a summer 2015 thing......is my timeline right on that?


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## buellski (Dec 15, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Who's laughing? I'm actually pretty serious about this. Why not try it over the holiday week if the weather stays snowless?



I'll go if they do!



from_the_NEK said:


> Only lift served MTB in the East and maybe the US for a week? Or two?



Bailey Mountain Bike Park - open year round - they use a shuttle for now, but they're planning a lift.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2015)

River19 said:


> didn't they fail to rent compressors last year?  and the fan guns were a summer 2015 thing......is my timeline right on that?



If memory serves me right, they dumped the compressors the first season that Q assumed the helm of the mountain...in 2013 or so.


----------



## wtcobb (Dec 15, 2015)

buellski said:


> I'll go if they do!
> 
> 
> 
> Bailey Mountain Bike Park - open year round - they use a shuttle for now, but they're planning a lift.



Saw a guy on a fat bike and two others on MTBs at Cannon Sunday. Might as well roll if you can't slide.


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## oldtimer (Dec 15, 2015)

One of Dick Andross's last moves was to oversee the install and operation of Big Bertha-  the very large compressor in the snow-making building down by the pond.  I would have to look it up, but I think it first ran in the winter of 12-13.  This compressor is very efficient, but it alone is 50% of the air capacity they had before it's purchase.    For the past 2 seasons they have made due without the diesel powered compressors in the pole barns.  The official word from the Q-kingdom last spring was that they knew they lacked air and water pumping.  Water pumping was partially solved with a new installed up in the meadow this fall.  Lack of air was supposed to be partially cured by the addition on fan guns on the training hill this past summer.  Theoretically, the plan was, that they could still blow the same 30+ guns that big Bertha can supply air to AND blow snow on lower training hill with the fan guns.  This requires A) water and with marginal temps it also requires LOTS of manpower.  Water seems to be an issue & manpower (especially trained manpower) is not in Q-jr's ability set.  He treats emps like trash and resents every dollar that is spent lining their filthy, greedy pockets (shame on anyone for wanting to be paid a living wage for toiling in the q-kingdom).  Thus he runs a very lean and green crew.   OHHH, and once you have the lower training hill done?  you can only blow snow like you did last winter-   very slowly.




thetrailboss said:


> If memory serves me right, they dumped the compressors the first season that Q assumed the helm of the mountain...in 2013 or so.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 15, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> One of Dick Andross's last moves was to oversee the install and operation of Big Bertha-  the very large compressor in the snow-making building down by the pond.  I would have to look it up, but I think it first ran in the winter of 12-13.  This compressor is very efficient, but it alone is 50% of the air capacity they had before it's purchase.    For the past 2 seasons they have made due without the diesel powered compressors in the pole barns.  The official word from the Q-kingdom last spring was that they knew they lacked air and water pumping.  Water pumping was partially solved with a new installed up in the meadow this fall.  Lack of air was supposed to be partially cured by the addition on fan guns on the training hill this past summer.  Theoretically, the plan was, that they could still blow the same 30+ guns that big Bertha can supply air to AND blow snow on lower training hill with the fan guns.  This requires A) water and with marginal temps it also requires LOTS of manpower.  Water seems to be an issue & manpower (especially trained manpower) is not in Q-jr's ability set.  He treats emps like trash and resents every dollar that is spent lining their filthy, greedy pockets (shame on anyone for wanting to be paid a living wage for toiling in the q-kingdom).  Thus he runs a very lean and green crew.   OHHH, and once you have the lower training hill done?  you can only blow snow like you did last winter-   very slowly.



Why would they need anymore manpower than they did last year? I thought the new equipment (fanguns, pumps, ect) were supposed to be AUTOMATED. Isn't that why they brought in snowmaking specialists to design a NEW system for them? 

I'd guess, that it would still take about the same manpower anywhere else on the mountain though.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Why would they need anymore manpower than they did last year? I thought the new equipment (fanguns, pumps, ect) were supposed to be AUTOMATED. Isn't that why they brought in snowmaking specialists to design a NEW system for them?
> 
> I'd guess, that it would still take about the same manpower anywhere else on the mountain though.



Their lead snowmaking guy left 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 15, 2015)

I was at a gathering tonight and heard someone talking about an electrical problem at the mountain that has affected snowmaking.  This is the first I have heard of this.  Has anyone else heard anything about this?  I'm not saying that it is actually true... just that I overheard someone talking about it.


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## River19 (Dec 16, 2015)

Well, we will find out over the weekend because if they aren't blowing snow then..........well crap, I just looked at the 15day forecast......all next week looks, well it looks like October......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> Well, we will find out over the weekend because if they aren't blowing snow then..........well crap, I just looked at the 15day forecast......all next week looks, well it looks like October......



I have a feeling that there was nothing to it.  


.


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## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

See today's condition report from Mt Sunapee (pasted below).  Read carefully to the end and you find this nugget- we have just leased additional compressed air..   This is called a PROACTIVE move when you know the weather gods have you by the balls.  I see no trucks from Sun Rentals headed up Mt Rd with compressors.  Given the lack of cold in this next punch I think it possible that they will not get lower training hill.  No kidding.  I actually feel for Ary and his crew because this situation sucks.  That said, there was more that COULD have been done and was not.

"As you are well aware, temperatures have been way above average in the East for the past month. We have not had one productive night of snowmaking since November 30. As a result we are suspending operations until Sunday, December 20. There is a window of cold weather coming in Friday night through Saturday night and we will be using that window to resurface and build base on everything that we have had open. We have just leased additional compressed air so we can increase our snowmaking output going forward. We will take advantage of every opportunity to provide as much skiing and riding as we can for the upcoming Christmas/New Year’s holiday. Please check the snow report for updates."


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## River19 (Dec 16, 2015)

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the reason is for the snow making so far, Mother Nature is being a bitch, the proof will be when she turns the corner and gives us winter temps January - March.  Let's see how fast Q can get terrain open starting from bare ground vs. every other ski area in the region.

I think we know how this will play out.  They will crank and get something open top to bottom, get about 30-40% of the mountain up and running while everyone else will be double that within a couple weeks of winter conditions arriving.  There will be a pass holder meeting or two where they blame the weather and the river and the state and George Bush etc. until finally someone rolls out Stenger and he makes a concession that yes part of it was placing bets with poor odds on some things that didn't go their way blah blah blah....

We saw this movie last year right?  Different ending this year?


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## River19 (Dec 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> See today's condition report from Mt Sunapee (pasted below).  Read carefully to the end and you find this nugget- we have just leased additional compressed air..   This is called a PROACTIVE move when you know the weather gods have you by the balls.  I see no trucks from Sun Rentals headed up Mt Rd with compressors.  Given the lack of cold in this next punch I think it possible that they will not get lower training hill.  No kidding.  I actually feel for Ary and his crew because this situation sucks.  That said, there was more that COULD have been done and was not.
> 
> 
> 
> "As you are well aware, temperatures have been way above average in the East for the past month. We have not had one productive night of snowmaking since November 30. As a result we are suspending operations until Sunday, December 20. There is a window of cold weather coming in Friday night through Saturday night and we will be using that window to resurface and build base on everything that we have had open. We have just leased additional compressed air so we can increase our snowmaking output going forward. We will take advantage of every opportunity to provide as much skiing and riding as we can for the upcoming Christmas/New Year’s holiday. Please check the snow report for updates."



110% agree.

There were plenty of tactical errors made up to this point, however if their water supply will hold up, there is still something they can do to at least show they are aware of the pickle and trying....

If they sit on what they have currently and just try to blow snow with what they have now and get up and running from bare ground.....they will be left in the dust by darn near everyone.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  Let's say that cold weather returns in earnest as of January 1st.  Once that happens, they will need to refresh the upper mountain and open trails on the lower mountain.  Only then will they start making snow on a second top-to-bottom run, the Dippers.  The Dippers require a LOT of snow.  So even if there is very good snowmaking weather, it will be all Burke can do to get two top-to-bottoms runs open for MLK weekend.  And this is if the weather cooperates.

You can see why the need natural snow.


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## River19 (Dec 16, 2015)

And how do you think that will stack up to the competition?


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## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

If you are on post #5577 of this thread you know the answer to that question-




River19 said:


> And how do you think that will stack up to the competition?


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## River19 (Dec 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> If you are on post #5577 of this thread you know the answer to that question-



Rhetorical I guess....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

Bretton Woods made snow last night but Burke did not.  That's a bummer.

But now for some good news from today's snowmaking update:
"Given the conditions the entire New England area is experiencing right now, Jay Peak will be honoring any Q Burke season pass holder free skiing at their resort until we are able to open."

I think that this is a great gesture.  Well done, Ary.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Bretton Woods made snow last night but Burke did not.  That's a bummer.
> 
> But now for some good news from today's snowmaking update:
> "Given the conditions the entire New England area is experiencing right now, Jay Peak will be honoring any Q Burke season pass holder free skiing at their resort until we are able to open."
> ...



It was probably Bill that made that call.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2015)

River19 said:


> 110% agree.
> 
> There were plenty of tactical errors made up to this point, however if their water supply will hold up, there is still something they can do to at least show they are aware of the pickle and trying....
> 
> If they sit on what they have currently and just try to blow snow with what they have now and get up and running from bare ground.....they will be left in the dust by darn near everyone.



Agreed.  The weather sucks, but there are things that CAN be done to take advantage of whatever cold air there is.


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## billski (Dec 16, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> It was probably Bill that made that call.


  Agree, but for different reasons.  Wouldn't have expected sound judgement otherwise....


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

It's to Jay's benefit to do this.  They are bound to pick up some food and beverage revenue that they wouldn't have otherwise had.  And they may even pick up a hotel reservation or two.  Since people are no doubt cancelling left and right, any opportunity to add revenue is well worth it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2015)

billski said:


> Agree, but for different reasons.  Wouldn't have expected sound judgement otherwise....



Yep.


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## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's to Jay's benefit to do this.  They are bound to pick up some food and beverage revenue that they wouldn't have otherwise had.  And they may even pick up a hotel reservation or two.  Since people are no doubt cancelling left and right, any opportunity to add revenue is well worth it.



Yeah I would want to make reservation when they have 3 trails open (The Jet, Haynes and Mont L’Entrepide) and 1 lift (Jet). I agree they did it because Jay isn't getting any business either.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Yeah I would want to make reservation when they have 3 trails open (The Jet, Haynes and Mont L’Entrepide) and 1 lift (Jet). I agree they did it because Jay isn't getting any business either.



With all of the EB-5 projects, Jay Peak has a TON of overhead.  This Christmas may be a real disaster for their bottom line.  This is unfortunate since they really could use some on-mountain improvements.


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## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

assume for a moment that Burke manages to get enough snow on lower training hill to run the Poma in their upcoming 60 hour window.  Do they open with lower Warrens, Poma only, for the week from Xmas to New Years?  tough call.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> assume for a moment that Burke manages to get enough snow on lower training hill to run the Poma in their upcoming 60 hour window.  Do they open with lower Warrens, Poma only, for the week from Xmas to New Years?  tough call.


Better than nothing but I'm not paying $64 to ski it.

I might be strongly tempted at $40.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> assume for a moment that Burke manages to get enough snow on lower training hill to run the Poma in their upcoming 60 hour window.  Do they open with lower Warrens, Poma only, for the week from Xmas to New Years?  tough call.



If they're gonna spend the money to make the snow there's no downside to running the lift for whoever shows up. Hard to believe they wouldn't get enough traffic to pay to run the Poma and a half dozen employees. Of course the next question would be can they get enough snow made so it doesn't all promptly melt before the end of the week. If they can get continuous skiing through the week, then I can't believe they wouldn't do it. But if there's a question as to whether it sticks till the next window...do you try to salvage some pride and open for a couple days, or save the cash and wait till a longer stretch of cold so they don't have to start over for the third time?  That would probably be the better decision financially, but you know there would be hell to pay publicly. I'm sure glad I'm not making these decisions, because I really don't know the right answer.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

I had that same thought too.  They need to make snow on Lower Warren's Way.  Without Lower Warren's Way open, any snow higher on the hill is useless.  But they are essentially starting from scratch with snowmaking on Lower Warren's Way.  So even if they can get it open, there is going to be just barely enough snow - right before a huge warm up.  

This is a TOUGH decision.  On the one hand, it seems absurd to open a token run just in time for the snow to melt.  And the poma lift hasn't been the most reliable lift lately.  On the other hand, the PR nightmare of not being open at all for Christmas won't help with hotel sales for next Christmas.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that they aren't going to be open during Christmas.  I came to this theory because of the announcement that they will allow skiing at Jay until they open.  I'm guessing that the real reason they are allowing skiing at Jay is because they don't want passholders to go ballistic when they aren't able to open for Christmas.

Another clue... Burke did not make snow last night whereas most other ski areas in the region did.


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## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

Bingo-   I do not think they open to the general public over xmas week.  I am not even sure what I hope for since lapping on the Poma with a throng has no appeal.   Looks like a week for the bike.


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## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Bingo-   I do not think they open to the general public over xmas week.  I am not even sure what I hope for since lapping on the Poma with a throng has no appeal.   Looks like a week for the bike.



Whoa! thought you wrote Thong not Throng


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Whoa! thought you wrote Thong not Throng


With temps in the 50's, a thong is not out of the question.


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

If is definitely out of the question for me.



vtkilarney said:


> with temps in the 50's, a thong is not out of the question.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm not sure how serious an effort this is, but here they go...


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## oldtimer (Dec 16, 2015)

Yeaaaaa


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## VTKilarney (Dec 16, 2015)

Now I can't figure out why they didn't blow last night.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure how serious an effort this is, but here they go...



They'd better drag every piece of portable equipment they can lay their hands on over there, and bury that wide area down towards the bottom. Should still be some air/water hookups down there somewhere hopefully. Going to need to cover the Poma track good too, to survive the upcoming holiday blowtorch...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 16, 2015)




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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 16, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I had that same thought too.  They need to make snow on Lower Warren's Way.  Without Lower Warren's Way open, any snow higher on the hill is useless.  But they are essentially starting from scratch with snowmaking on Lower Warren's Way.  So even if they can get it open, there is going to be just barely enough snow - right before a huge warm up.
> 
> This is a TOUGH decision.  On the one hand, it seems absurd to open a token run just in time for the snow to melt.  And the poma lift hasn't been the most reliable lift lately.  On the other hand, the PR nightmare of not being open at all for Christmas won't help with hotel sales for next Christmas.
> 
> ...



Jay has 2trails, and maybe a swath by a moving carpet in a couple of days
Q resorts (Burke-Jay) needs something other than hotel rooms
Like air and water cfm to make snow
Jay has had many cancellations
Ugly here


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## mbedle (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm surprised that Jay hasn't been more aggressive. wouldn't have thought they would have had more runs open, given what other resorts have done so far.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 16, 2015)

Jay has never been particularly quick about opening terrain early season. Actually they were apparently blowing snow on Goat last night, which is unusual, normally they go to the Taxi or Metro lifts. Presumably they didn't have the temperatures down low.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 17, 2015)

Burke had a season record number of guns going last night: 30.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke had a season record number of guns going last night: 30.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke had a season record number of guns going last night: 3Q



Fixed it for you 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Dub (Dec 17, 2015)

I know it's pretty easy to complain about Burke and the way things have been going over the past couple of years (at least early season), but I think that you'd be hard pressed to find any mountain that is run exactly as you want it all the time.  I appreciate the improvements they have been making and hope they get the water/compressor thing figured out.  There are going to be growing pains at every mountain with new management and I think that at Burke we've been through this as much as anywhere with all the ownership changes in the past years.  I can appreciate the complaints about false promises, I get it, but let's not lose site of how much the weather plays a part of it.  Killington is not exactly killing it with all of their snowmaking capabilities. 

Honestly, I'm just happy they are accepting Burke Passes at Jay until they are open.  At least we have an option.  I've been skiing Burke long enough to stifle my expectations for December.  I can only hope the rest of the winter is as close to as good as last year was.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 18, 2015)

Latest unsubstantiated scuttlebutt is that someone messed up on ordering a key pieces of hotel furniture.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2015)

Okay guys load in the bed.

Beds?

Beds?

Did you?

No did you?

Awww craps!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay guys load in the bed.
> 
> Beds?
> 
> ...



Beds? Who needs beds? We're using Military Cots!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## oldtimer (Dec 18, 2015)

got a discount on TV's that have no cable input?


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## steamboat1 (Dec 18, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Latest unsubstantiated scuttlebutt is that someone messed up on ordering a key pieces of hotel furniture.



Wasn't there a problem with the state releasing funds delaying the purchase of materials, furniture & fixtures?

http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/1542-delays-mounting-at-q-burke-hotel

_"Within 24 hours, Davis acknowledged  that the DFR had approved most of the late payments, but would not  authorize costs related to furniture, fixtures, and equipment, commonly  referred to as FF&E, because of issues with the wording of the  project contract.
_
_As a result, Davis decided to suspend all FF&E projects at the hotel. That hold is still in place today."_


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 18, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Wasn't there a problem with the state releasing funds delaying the purchase of materials, furniture & fixtures?
> 
> http://www.news7newslinc.net/index.php/around-the-nek/burke/1542-delays-mounting-at-q-burke-hotel
> 
> ...



That would probably have something to do with it.


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## billski (Dec 18, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Better than nothing but I'm not paying $64 to ski it.
> 
> I might be strongly tempted at $40.


  Give it to me for 20 and I might buy and 8 buck burger and a 9 buck shotglass of wine!


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## billski (Dec 18, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Beds? Who needs beds? We're using Military Cots!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


  First thing that came to my mind was toilets!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 18, 2015)

Probably monogrammed "Q" headboards and towels.  


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 18, 2015)

billski said:


> First thing that came to my mind was toilets!



Hey they can get some last minute ordering in...


[h=1]Sanitary Toilet Seat Lifter Q-lifter[/h]

http://www.amazon.com/Sanitary-Toilet-Lifter-Q-lifter-Shipping/dp/B00J0LMOOA


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Probably monogrammed "Q" headboards and towels.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

A new record of guns going.  Drumroll.... 35!!!!!




.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

Looks a bit better now that the temps are down some...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153859054438023


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> A new record of guns going.  Drumroll.... 35!!!!!



Are you going to that Passholder Meeting tonight?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

The first cell phone video of 2015/2016!


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

Yeah, and you'd think they'd be smart enough to turn it horizontal and shoot in landscape view, ya know, like the shape of a monitor screen?!


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## billski (Dec 19, 2015)




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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Are you going to that Passholder Meeting tonight?



No, but a friend is.


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## Edd (Dec 19, 2015)

Which cell phone video are you guys referring to?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

Edd said:


> Which cell phone video are you guys referring to?



https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153859054438023


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## Edd (Dec 19, 2015)

Thanks. Yes, portrait videos are obscene. No marketing person in his/her right mind should utilize them, IMO.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

Here are some notes my buddy sent me about the pass holder meeting that just took place:

There were about 20 people in attendance.  Stenger was present.

Last year they could pump 400 gpm of water.  This year 1,000.  Next year 2,000.

$30-$40 million will be lost in state tax revenue due to the bad weather.  (My note: If this is true, this is VERY bad new for a small state like Vermont.)

Hotel opening date will be determined this coming week.  (My note: My friend said that it seemed like it's not going to open on January 15th.)

Three times as much will be spent on snowmaking upgrades this summer than was spent last summer.

Next year they anticipate being able to light up 70 snowmaking guns at one time.  There are no committed-to plans beyond this.  There is the goal of improving snowmaking, but it will depend on resort revenues.

There were no neighbor complaints about the plan for night skiing.  They expect the permit to be approved.  Night skiing will be on Dashney Mile and the J-Bar hill.  

When they open, the poma lift will be restricted to BMA.  It will not be available for public use.

The plan is to have two lanes down from Mid-Burke to Sherburne before they start making snow on the main hill again.

The Willoughby lift was inspected this year, but it will not be used because Ary believes that safety would be compromised if it is used.  

The snowmaking pond will be dredged this summer.

The Mid-Burke lodge will be open for two or three more years.  The contract with BMA requires dedicated space for BMA, so even if the lodge is replaced there will be a structure to accommodate BMA.

Jay Peak had 1,800 skiers (12/19) today on two trails, although obviously not all at the same time.

Ary conceded that a December 26th opening date is not realistic.

There will be a shuttle running between Mid-Burke and Sherburne seven days per week during the ski season so long as the lot at Mid-Burke is full.  

-------------------

My friend said that overall the meeting went well.  He said that Ary's speaking abilities have improved somewhat.  He said that the questions people asked were good questions, but that nobody was looking for a confrontation.  Jessica, the PR person, was a third-wheel.  Steiger did most of the talking with Ary a close second.

He reported that there was no snowmaking going on at the time because somebody took out a utility pole that delivers power to the snowmaking system.  They were trying to get it back on line quickly.


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## doublediamond (Dec 19, 2015)

What the f#^%} does he mean "safety will be compromised"?!?!?

If it passed inspection, there should be 0 safety issues.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> $30-$40 million will be lost in state tax revenue due to the bad weather.  (My note: *If this is true, this is VERY bad new for a small state like Vermont*.)



Especially given the taxes on Vermonters already approaches obscene levels.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

Well, just goes to show, Ary still won't maximize his available opportunities.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> He reported that there was no snowmaking going on at the time because somebody took out a utility pole that delivers power to the snowmaking system.  They were trying to get it back on line quickly.



Well it certainly wasn't because of someone shooting mylar streamers into the wires celebrating opening day.


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## doublediamond (Dec 19, 2015)

2014 VT Budget was $5.2B, so we're talking about 0.75%


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Well it certainly wasn't because of someone shooting mylar streamers into the wires celebrating opening day.






As much as Ary is liked, someone probably took a chainsaw to the pole.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> 2014 VT Budget was $5.2B, so we're talking about 0.75%



That includes education funding which is administered by the state. The $40 million hit will only impact non-educational funding. And there is a large budget gap this year and next even before this hit.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> there is a large budget gap this year and next even before this hit.



Vt. Health Connect & Medicaid.


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## oldtimer (Dec 19, 2015)

Sorry folks-   $30 to $40 million of taxable revenue perhaps?  (as opposed to tax revenue)   I am not sure of the meals and rooms tax rate nor the rate on the lift tickets, but for very simple math, assume 10% (it is lower than that)  Were it 10%, the resorts, hotels and restaurants would have to lost  $400 million gross revenue  in the month of December.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> What the f#^%} does he mean "safety will be compromised"?!?!?
> 
> If it passed inspection, there should be 0 safety issues.



+1


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

Re: snowmaking.  Back to 70 guns, eh? So he means back to baseline in 2011 or so? Awesome. What clowns.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That includes education funding which is administered by the state. The $40 million hit will only impact non-educational funding. And there is a large budget gap this year and next even before this hit.



Don't get me started. The news last week was that the state of Vermont was thrilled that Keurig is going to be sold. It means millions in tax revenue for them. Forget the fact that many people will probably lose their jobs. That's small stuff apparently.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 19, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> Sorry folks-   $30 to $40 million of taxable revenue perhaps?  (as opposed to tax revenue)   I am not sure of the meals and rooms tax rate nor the rate on the lift tickets, but for very simple math, assume 10% (it is lower than that)  Were it 10%, the resorts, hotels and restaurants would have to lost  $400 million gross revenue  in the month of December.



And I'm not sure why they commented about lost tax revenue. That seems like a big red herring it to me. Who cares if the State loses tax revenue? That has nothing to do with the situation at Burke Mountain.


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## doublediamond (Dec 19, 2015)

I think they're trying to deflect blame for they're crappy snowmaking system, basically saying along the lines "See ... the whole state is f****ed, it's not just us!"


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## VTKilarney (Dec 19, 2015)

I had a chance to touch base with my friend who was at the meeting.  He says that, while Ary's performance was overall not that bad, he did very poorly when speaking about the Willoughby chair.  The question was whether or not it would be available as a backup since they had problems with the Mid-Burke last year.  Ary said that it would not because it is a "safety issue".  He gave a rambling, not coherent response to explain why it was a safety issue.  My friend says that it made no sense at all.

Overall, however, my friend says that the answers given at the meeting seemed to be straighter than in the past.  The one major exception being that they blamed the weather 100% for the lack of snowmaking this year.

One other tidbit that he mentioned.  Ary said that they used to blow snow on the training hill first for BMA's needs.  Ary said that BMA is working with the resort so there can be a balance between BMA's needs and the guests' needs.  Ary said that this is why, for the first time, they blew snow on the upper mountain first.  

I'm not sure how collaborative a decision that really was, but take it for what it's worth.

And one other point that he had forgotten to tell me.  Ary said that they are planning on building a second snowmaking pond.

As for the hotel opening, here is one interesting comment.  Somebody asked when the ice skating rink would be open.  Ary said that he was not sure that it would open this year.  He said that it would depend on whether or not there were guests at the hotel to use it.  That certainly suggests to me that the hotel may not be opening by January 15th.  My guess is mid-February.  But who knows.  It certainly looks well on its way to completion.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 19, 2015)

Anyone ask Stenger why Ary was there and when they plan on hiring an experienced GM? 

In all seriousness though wasn't Ary supposed to be out?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 19, 2015)

For all intents and practical purposes, I guess we all should pretend that when the MBx went in, that the Willoughby was removed, and what we see on the mountain is a figment of our imaginations.

I don't get why the Poma is closed to the public though. Did they not inspect it?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 20, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> For all intents and practical purposes, I guess we all should pretend that when the MBx went in, that the Willoughby was removed, and what we see on the mountain is a figment of our imaginations.
> 
> I don't get why the Poma is closed to the public though. Did they not inspect it?



My guess is that the poma is maintained by BMA, or that they at least pay for the maintenance.  It's also a very old lift that has had its share of problems recently.  

If the Willoughby chair won't be used by Q Burke, it would be nice to see it installed at Ascutney.  


.


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## dlague (Dec 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That includes education funding which is administered by the state. The $40 million hit will only impact non-educational funding. And there is a large budget gap this year and next even before this hit.



And the losses are not done yet!  I bet there will be a significant drop in skier visits for this season equalling more revenue losses.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My guess is that the poma is maintained by BMA, or that they at least pay for the maintenance.  It's also a very old lift that has had its share of problems recently.
> 
> If the Willoughby chair won't be used by Q Burke, it would be nice to see it installed at Ascutney.
> 
> ...



The Poma is BMA's now and works fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 20, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The Poma is BMA's now and works fine.



Yeah, I had thought that it had received a bunch of new custom made parts in the past few years to bring it back up into good condition again. Didn't know that BMA had sole ownership of it though. So much history tying it to Burke Mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, I had thought that it had received a bunch of new custom made parts in the past few years to bring it back up into good condition again. Didn't know that BMA had sole ownership of it though. So much history tying it to Burke Mountain.



My understanding is that BMA now maintains and pays for it. Might be wrong though. FTN/TOTB can you confirm?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 20, 2015)

And they need to remove Willoughby and the Poma from lists and maps, if they are never going to be open to the Public. They won't have 6 lifts, only 4.


It's kind of like if after Killington put all this time and work into the Snowdon Triple, and then closed it off to the Public.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 20, 2015)

Since the Willoughby lift is redundant it would make sense to remove it from the trail map. Having it on the map makes the trails appear to be more crowded than they actually are.


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## Smellytele (Dec 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Since the Willoughby lift is redundant it would make sense to remove it from the trail map. Having it on the map makes the trails appear to be more crowded than they actually are.



I have been there when the detachable went down and they had to use it. That was the only time I have seen it running since they put in the detachable


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> I have been there when the detachable went down and they had to use it. That was the only time I have seen it running since they put in the detachable



It costs nearly nothing to keep it as a backup. Q doesn't want to pay the additional $$$ for insurance I bet.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Dec 21, 2015)

So it appears that based on the passholder meeting that they somewhat admit they need more water holding capacity given that they are not only dredging the existing pond so it can hold more, but also trying to develop a second holding pond.  So while they won't admit any of the water problems are of their own creation, they sort of admit they could have hedged against the risk of water supply shortage with some simple foresight to at least have dredged the existing pond this summer.

70 guns huh?  Wasn't Burke running about 70 guns a few years ago when even then they were considered under gunned?  Granted some of these 70 will be more efficient in theory.....

Do people get the sense the hotel is opening later than Mid January?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 21, 2015)

If they get to a maximum of 70 guns, they will go from a snowmaking that is absolutely horrible to a snowmaking system that is poor.


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## River19 (Dec 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If they get to a maximum of 70 guns, they will go from a snowmaking that is absolutely horrible to a snowmaking system that is poor.



And wasn't it poor before they made it horrible?

So years ago they were punching you in the face, then Q started kicking you in the nuts and now everyone is supposed to be happy to be punched in the face again and not kicked in the nuts?  Got it.

Excited.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2015)

River19 said:


> And wasn't it poor before they made it horrible?
> 
> So years ago they were punching you in the face, then Q started kicking you in the nuts and now everyone is supposed to be happy to be punched in the face again and not kicked in the nuts?  Got it.
> 
> Excited.



The Ginn/LA era had decent snowmaking. They're now back to pre-2000 if not 1994 levels. Ridiculous.


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## River19 (Dec 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The Ginn/LA era had decent snowmaking. They're now back to pre-2000 if not 1994 levels. Ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



So you are saying it is like complaining about bad pay rates only to have them cut your rate and then your old rate looks better.........

At the end of the day, if they can make snow to keep up with other mountains, then we all shut up, if they fall behind due to lack of ability, capacity etc. then the poop in on them


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## the original trailboss (Dec 21, 2015)

I am under the impression that the pond can only be dredged to the level of the center "outlet". To dredge deeper would require removing and lowering that first.


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## zeke (Dec 22, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I am under the impression that the pond can only be dredged to the level of the center "outlet". To dredge deeper would require removing and lowering that first.



So next summer hen nothing has changed it will be the pond's fault for not having a low enough outlet? Or maybe gravity's fault for not being flexible enough to work with them?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

New article:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/12/21/173190/

If I am reading it correctly it appears that a January 15th hotel opening isn't possible.  Bye, bye MLK weekend.


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## oldtimer (Dec 22, 2015)

It would appear that Q&compnay do not have the the resources or are not willing to spend the money out of assets rather than the EB-5 funds.  We have all suspected that for quite a while but it seems to be true.  There is NO WAY the current EB-5 oversight crew will let them spend EB-5 money for operating expenses etc.  Is there a chance of surviving a poor season with a late hotel opening and then mud season?  Those are all huge cash drains.  If they are posers it will all come clear in 60 days.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

The big question is whether or not they will open for Presidents Day vacation.  The contractor indicated that he will need a month once the final funds are released, so the clock is ticking quickly on that one.  If they don't get open in time for President's Day, the entire winter season is pretty much a disaster.  

Does it make PR sense to take all of these reservations knowing that they are going to have to be cancelled?


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## oldtimer (Dec 22, 2015)

I think the term is oxymoran:::  putting QBurke and "does it make PR sense" into the same sentence.




VTKilarney said:


> The big question is whether or not they will open for Presidents Day vacation.  The contractor indicated that he will need a month once the final funds are released, so the clock is ticking quickly on that one.  If they don't get open in time for President's Day, the entire winter season is pretty much a disaster.
> 
> Does it make PR sense to take all of these reservations knowing that they are going to have to be cancelled?


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## River19 (Dec 22, 2015)

If I read that correctly, the Contractor is owed $3M and once that is paid in full it will be a minimum 4 weeks before the built out is complete.  Right?

So we are banging up against 2 weeks of holidays, and we know Government isn't exactly fond of working around holidays, especially small State gov't so my guess is the earliest they get paid is first week of January, which means they would be into February for a hotel opening.....

And they all thought we were crazy back in post # 3000ish for saying the hotel won't open on December 11th.....

Speaking of that.....I wonder how the Q Burke Mountain Real Estate Marketing Team is doing........(all joking aside, I hope he is doing OK)


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

Ary was lucky that the people interviewed in the article were condo owners.  One thing I have noticed is that the condo owners are all putting on a very brave face in public, despite being REALLY concerned in private.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

Projected opening date is now January 8th - upper mountain only.


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## yeggous (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Projected opening date is now January 8th - upper mountain only.



Ouch. I feel your pain.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2015)

This is telling:



> Bill Stenger, CEO of Jay Peak Resort and developer of Q Burke, and his partner Ariel Quiros, could not be reached for comment.



Bill not having any comment?!

And this is spot on and has been said by a lot of us here:



> She said the new management didn’t totally understand the Burke culture, or the surrounding community, citing a clash when Quiros cut off mountain bike access to Kingdom Trail members.


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## River19 (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Projected opening date is now January 8th - upper mountain only.



The way I look at it, the start date delay is damn near 80% due to Mother Nature, once they get temps, how quickly they get terrain open will be 100% on Q.  If they get lapped by the field in the snow making/open terrain department then that is a reflection on their Mountain Ops and Qmanagement.

Time will tell.....

Jan 8th.....you excited?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

Good point about Stenger not commenting.  That is a complete reversal from what he normally does.  According to the article it appears that the partners are not willing to put up the $3 million that the hotel contractor says he is owed.  In the grand scheme of things, that's not a whole lot of money to get the hotel open for its most profitable season.  

So this is my wild, tin-foil hat wearing speculation... The SEC is paying LOTS of attention to the goings on in the Northeast Kingdom.

At a minimum it appears that the wagons are beginning to be circled.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

River19 said:


> Jan 8th.....you excited?


If there is no meaningful natural snow, we are looking at the end of January before they get a second run open from the top.  Their plan is for the Dippers, which take a LOT of snow.  Given that they want two runs open from Sherburne, it will be a week or two before they even think about getting guns going on the main mountain. 

Bottom line... unless there is natural snow, January is pretty much lost.

I've said it before... weather will only be an excuse for so long.  Once the cold weather lingers in January other ski areas will be opening trails at a rapid pace.  But Q Burke will be blown out of the water.


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## oldtimer (Dec 22, 2015)

January 8th---  we are being nice to call that 80% on weather.   They should be totally ashamed.  Training hill should have been done in that cold snap in Late November.   Had that happened, they would have at least one route off the top for New Years weekend.  

THIS SUCKS.


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## River19 (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point about Stenger not commenting.  That is a complete reversal from what he normally does.  According to the article it appears that the partners are not willing to put up the $3 million that the hotel contractor says he is owed.  In the grand scheme of things, that's not a whole lot of money to get the hotel open for its most profitable season.
> 
> So this is my wild, tin-foil hat wearing speculation... The SEC is paying LOTS of attention to the goings on in the Northeast Kingdom.
> 
> At a minimum it appears that the wagons are beginning to be circled.



This is why I really do wonder about the motivations.  If the whole play for them is the inside real estate deals, then the mgt fees from the EB5 investors and flip the whole thing, then why would they be overly concerned about the 2015/2016 profitability of the mountain?

Listen, if I coordinated a $55M hotel build (regardless of funding) and was hit with revenue cancellations due to whatever reason but now had an option to put up $3M of my own funding for maybe 30-60days until the state "OK's" payment in order to lock in a new open date where revenue can begin flowing........I am thinking that is a no brainer as it would be in the best interest of the overall long term product and current P&L to get some cash flowing in.

A true steward of the mountain that cares about the economy of the surrounding community would not deep six the P&L of the business on principal alone when a 60day float of $3M would get things open within the next 4-5 weeks guaranteed.  So a few things could be going on here:

- It's $3M+ and they don't have the cash and given their issues no one will provide a short term loan
- They don't care about the P&L as they aren't in this to manage an ongoing concern
- There is truly fire where the SEC saw smoke and they are closing in on killing the whole she-bang and Q & Co know they are screwed
- Q & Company have a plan to get things open quicker than the Peak 4 week min estimate (once paid) and Peak is just posturing (I find this unlikely)
- Some other angle........


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

Q Burke has been really good about posting snowmaking updates to their Facebook page.  Until today.  Apparently they don't want their customers to know of the revised opening date.  Great PR, guys.


.


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## the original trailboss (Dec 22, 2015)

And don't forget the mattresses......


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## doublediamond (Dec 22, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> I am under the impression that the pond can only be dredged to the level of the center "outlet". To dredge deeper would require removing and lowering that first.



The pond has to be deeper than the outlet. I can't remember off the top of my head, there needs to be at least a few feet of water to support aquatic life.


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## mbedle (Dec 22, 2015)

Little confused here, why are you saying that Stenger didn't comment? He did comment in the article, it was Ariel that could not be reached for comment. As far as the 3 million payment, I would venture to guess that some type of contract is in place that specifically states that payment to Peak CM has to come from the state controlled fund. I also highly doubt that Stenger or  Ariel have 3 million sitting around in a checking account that is not already allotted for other payees (insurance, employees, F&B, operating costs, etc.). And finally, as far as the hotel opening, its actually a pretty good thing it is delayed. Operating a hotel for minimal to no guess is expensive and a waste of money.


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## River19 (Dec 22, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Little confused here, why are you saying that Stenger didn't comment? He did comment in the article, it was Ariel that could not be reached for comment. As far as the 3 million payment, I would venture to guess that some type of contract is in place that specifically states that payment to Peak CM has to come from the state controlled fund. I also highly doubt that Stenger or  Ariel have 3 million sitting around in a checking account that is not already allotted for other payees (insurance, employees, F&B, operating costs, etc.). And finally, as far as the hotel opening, its actually a pretty good thing it is delayed. Operating a hotel for minimal to no guess is expensive and a waste of money.



December, operating the hotel would have been a loss, specifically I was talking about doing everything in their power to get open mid January when chances are there will be at least some skiing vs. mid February at the earliest based on waiting for the state to OK payment.  But yes, operating an empty hotel is stupid, which brings us back to the original points of .....create a powder capable product and there might be a reason to fill that hotel......

And for "developers" of their supposed caliber to not have access to $3M for short term loans is sad.  Of the 3 acquaintances I have which fall into a similar to slightly smaller commercial development league as Q & Co. $3M would be a 4-7 business day turnaround at most.  So your thought of contract language etc. might be very close to the truth.

Eh.....fustercluck....


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## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary was lucky that the people interviewed in the article were condo owners.  One thing I have noticed is that the condo owners are all putting on a very brave face in public, despite being REALLY concerned in private.



this makes no sense. You really think the condo owners, in the damn Digger of all places, somehow reserved their opinions, and, even better, did so unanimously? hogwash. the fact is most people, when faced with the warmest December on record, and unlike the incredibly negative crowd on here, recognizes that the weather is the factor. As I have said before- we have a normal December and NONE OF THIS bs is even an issue. Everything else (snowmaking capacity, compressors) you have discussed lives on the margin of this critical fact.

Further, everything you need to know about the Digger is summed up in this quote. They have a goddamn ax to grind with EB 5, represent the viewpoint in VT that has killed jobs and growth, and can go pound type-print up their behinds. Why dont they go write an article about how Bolton isnt open, and no opening in sight?

"Ariel Quiros, who is Stenger’s partner at Q Burke, could not be reached for comment. An assistant said Friday that Quiros was in Miami (where it was 85 and sunny)"

FU digger and your class resentment.


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## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

One other post for me on this- happy to separate the weather and the skiing from the hotel. On that subject... clearly, all criticism is warranted on the missteps. But, make no mistake, the state bears more blame than Burke on this.  Did the State really think the EB 5 funds woudl build the hotel but not put goddamn furniture in it? idiots.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this makes no sense. You really think the condo owners, in the damn Digger of all places, somehow reserved their opinions, and, even better, did so unanimously? hogwash. the fact is most people, when faced with the warmest December on record, and unlike the incredibly negative crowd on here, recognizes that the weather is the factor. As I have said before- we have a normal December and NONE OF THIS bs is even an issue. Everything else (snowmaking capacity, compressors) you have discussed lives on the margin of this critical fact.



True that weather is a part of the predicament, but if it was a normal December the snowmaking shortcomings would still be an issue--slower to open terrain, etc.  



> Further, everything you need to know about the Digger is summed up in this quote. They have a goddamn ax to grind with EB 5, represent the viewpoint in VT that has killed jobs and growth, and can go pound type-print up their behinds. Why dont they go write an article about how Bolton isnt open, and no opening in sight?
> 
> "Ariel Quiros, who is Stenger’s partner at Q Burke, could not be reached for comment. An assistant said Friday that Quiros was in Miami (where it was 85 and sunny)"
> 
> FU digger and your class resentment.



You think so?  They've been pretty critical of Stenger/Quiros and, unfortunately, a lot of their criticism has been somewhat accurate.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke has been really good about posting snowmaking updates to their Facebook page.  Until today.  Apparently they don't want their customers to know of the revised opening date.  Great PR, guys.
> 
> 
> you need to get a life. I have an email saying opening is delayed until the 8th. The fact you run to the facebook page to see if their is a similar message, and then run to the internet when their isnt, is laughable. yeah dude, they clearly dont want their customers to know.....nope, not at all. Someone should be fired for that email, dammit!


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> True that weather is a part of the predicament, but if it was a normal December the snowmaking shortcomings would still be an issue--slower to open terrain, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> You think so?  They've been pretty critical of Stenger/Quiros and, unfortunately, a lot of their criticism has been somewhat accurate.



Trailboss the quote speaks for itself. You and I know exactly why its there. Rich, out of state investor doesnt care about VT- proof? his ship is sinking and he is in Miami, sunning himself. I repeat. FU Digger. there is no logical reason to include that quote except to make an editorial point.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> One other post for me on this- happy to separate the weather and the skiing from the hotel. On that subject... clearly, all criticism is warranted on the missteps. But, make no mistake, the state bears more blame than Burke on this.  Did the State really think the EB 5 funds woudl build the hotel but not put goddamn furniture in it? idiots.



I don't think that is correct.  The State does deserve (much) criticism for not properly overseeing the EB-5 program, but the particulars as to the business plan, operations, etc. falls to Q and Stenger.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2015)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Trailboss the quote speaks for itself. You and I know exactly why its there. Rich, out of state investor doesnt care about VT- proof? his ship is sinking and he is in Miami, sunning himself. I repeat. FU Digger. there is no logical reason to include that quote except to make an editorial point.



Or their point was to tie into the weather issue....it is 50 F and raining here in VT, 85 F and sunny in Miami.  I think you may be reading into that a bit too far.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that is correct.  The State does deserve (much) criticism for not properly overseeing the EB-5 program, but the particulars as to the business plan, operations, etc. falls to Q and Stenger.



Agree but the release of funds as I understand it was an ommission in drafting, rather than managerial incompetence- maybe blame Stenger and Q based on faulty oversighf of their counsel.
 If the agreement with the state was silent as to who paid for furniture and fixtures, then you have a drafting error, whose omission is based on an assumption. The state could have conceded this  and executed an addendum or some such to move the ball and release the funds. A hotel is not just 4 walls and a pool, this is not like building a house where no one expects your mortgage to cover your furniture.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that is correct.  The State does deserve (much) criticism for not properly overseeing the EB-5 program, but the particulars as to the business plan, operations, etc. falls to Q and Stenger.



Agree but the release of funds as I understand it was an ommission in drafting, rather than managerial incompetence- maybe blame Stenger and Q based on faulty oversighf of their counsel.
 If the agreement with the state was silent as to who paid for furniture and fixtures, then you have a drafting error, whose omission is based on an assumption. The state could have conceded this  and executed an addendum or some such to move the ball and release the funds. A hotel is not just 4 walls and a pool, this is not like building a house where no one expects your mortgage to cover your furniture.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Or their point was to tie into the weather issue....it is 50 F and raining here in VT, 85 F and sunny in Miami.  I think you may be reading into that a bit too far.



maybe but it was out of place and you certainly can not deny the context i presnt is without merit.

Sorry, looking out my window at.....early mud season....has me very cranky today. Plus the thought of all you Burke passholders coming up to Jay to squek down a patch of snow on the Jet has my bloomers in a bunch. Damn you Ary, blow that snow


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 22, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> The pond has to be deeper than the outlet. I can't remember off the top of my head, there needs to be at least a few feet of water to support aquatic life.



Why would an artificial pond need to support aquatic life?
More likely reason is that having the pond a few feet deeper than the outlet would help prevent the system from in taking silt and mud which would be bad for the pumping system and likely bad for the nozzles on the snow guns.

And I also think that VT Digger has an agenda here as well. Like BWD said above, where is the article about Bolton not being open. Heck their base elevation is one of the highest in the state. What is their excuse?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

BWD is cranky!


.


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 22, 2015)

BWD--
I hate to bring facts into the middle of a good rant, BUT-  the EB-5 has very specific rules and regulations about what constitutes core and shell, hard fixtures (furnaces et al), and FF&E.  The state's job in this is to be sure that the EB-5 funds are distributed per those regs.  This is not a matter of logic and what you think constitutes a hotel.  

It is possible that Q-sr and Mr. Stenger did the work at Jay under less scrutiny and were thus able to massage some of the regs in their favor, but that does not mean that state is at fault in this case.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Jay investors who feel abused by the terms of their notes being changed by the stroke of Bill Stenger's pen have a right to be annoyed.  That type of manuever causes the oversight they have right now.  I have no horse in this race but I cannot blame the state for trying to do what they probably should have done at Jay.



Big Wave Dave said:


> Agree but the release of funds as I understand it was an ommission in drafting, rather than managerial incompetence- maybe blame Stenger and Q based on faulty oversighf of their counsel.
> If the agreement with the state was silent as to who paid for furniture and fixtures, then you have a drafting error, whose omission is based on an assumption. The state could have conceded this  and executed an addendum or some such to move the ball and release the funds. A hotel is not just 4 walls and a pool, this is not like building a house where no one expects your mortgage to cover your furniture.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> BWD--
> I hate to bring facts into the middle of a good rant, BUT-  the EB-5 has very specific rules and regulations about what constitutes core and shell, hard fixtures (furnaces et al), and FF&E.  The state's job in this is to be sure that the EB-5 funds are distributed per those regs.  This is not a matter of logic and what you think constitutes a hotel.
> 
> It is possible that Q-sr and Mr. Stenger did the work at Jay under less scrutiny and were thus able to massage some of the regs in their favor, but that does not mean that state is at fault in this case.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Jay investors who feel abused by the terms of their notes being changed by the stroke of Bill Stenger's pen have a right to be annoyed.  That type of manuever causes the oversight they have right now.  I have no horse in this race but I cannot blame the state for trying to do what they probably should have done at Jay.



Thank you for this. I would be genuinely interested in reading more  if you can share a resource. Seems odd to me that the program itself would dictate how the capital gets allocated at that level of detail, and not the contract that is bespoke to the project itself. And, if the State allowed funds at Jay to be used to complete furnishings, then they are absolutely at partial fault, as they set precedence. 

I dont see any correlation between the Tony Suttons of this world and the state releasing funds for furnishings. Tony Sutton is an annoying squeeky wheel . A quick internet search shows that Jay and Burke have over 500 EB investors, so what that 17 of them feel jilted.  Tony Sutton invested in a plan that has absolutely no obligation to pay him back. He got 4 green cards. Go away, Tony.


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## oldtimer (Dec 22, 2015)

BWD-
You are now right in the middle of the transition that the EB-5 program has undergone in the last 3 to 5 years.  Forever, we all felt that the EB-5 program was, as you say "He got 4 green cards.  Go away."   All across the country the program has operated this way.  It was a symbiotic relationship that involved a wink and a nod from the investors.  Well before Tony reared his head, there were Chinese investors on the west coast who decided that the investments that they made should be investments as well as a quid pro quo for the visas.   It has been all down hill since then.  There are a couple of lawyers here in the USA looking at EB-5, trying to find those that do not deliver on what was promised in the paperwork and trying to find overseas clients to represent.  Easy pickings really.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

It bears repeating that investors were pitched a return on their investment in five years.  Whether or not they should have believed this, Stenger and Quiros _wanted_ them to believe it.  In that regard they have been quite successful - all while raking in administrative fees.  There was absolutely not a wink and a nod.

As for the VTDigger article, it is no secret that they pride themselves on their EB-5 coverage.  That pride is well deserved.  If Burke decided to take funds under EB-5, they ought to have realized that this would put them more in the spotlight than a place like Bolton Valley.  They are big boys.  I am sure they can handle the foreseeable consequences of their conduct.


----------



## doublediamond (Dec 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Why would an artificial pond need to support aquatic life?



Yeah because you build your own pond and all frogs and vegetation and stuff respect that it's manmade and continue over to the next real pond.:roll:



from_the_NEK said:


> What is their excuse?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but the normally open Sherman Pass -> Beech Seal, right? That's 6700 ft long, say averages 70 ft wide.  They pump at 1000 gpm.  To open they'd need 54 straight hours for an 18" base assuming they can convert 100% of that water to snow (not realistic:  they got to have water returning so pipes don't freeze & less efficient snowmaking at warmer temps meaning even more will return to their ponds).   Now add on that there's been melting and they don't have much money....

Realistically they need a bigger window like Magic's 5 days to open because of inherent inefficiencies of non-automatic snowguns.  Many ski areas need on the order of 2 hours to turn a trail on from top to bottom once the pipes are fully charged.  Now add on that they need to shut down and move the guns down the hill as they make the snow.

Makes sense they're not open yet.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Dec 22, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> BWD-
> You are now right in the middle of the transition that the EB-5 program has undergone in the last 3 to 5 years.  Forever, we all felt that the EB-5 program was, as you say "He got 4 green cards.  Go away."   All across the country the program has operated this way.  It was a symbiotic relationship that involved a wink and a nod from the investors.  Well before Tony reared his head, there were Chinese investors on the west coast who decided that the investments that they made should be investments as well as a quid pro quo for the visas.   It has been all down hill since then.  There are a couple of lawyers here in the USA looking at EB-5, trying to find those that do not deliver on what was promised in the paperwork and trying to find overseas clients to represent.  Easy pickings really.



EB 5 investments by their very terms forbid promising a return. So Tony Suttons took a risk, and like many other investors, did not get a return. Obviously no one promised him one. Further, return of principal was not guaranteed. Here or any other project. So what if a bunch of Chinese investors feel they got screwed? Minus fraud, they have no cause, under EB 5 or any other investment. The fact people have decided they don't like an outcome means nothing to me. Especially under a program whose basis is to fund projects that normal allocators of capital wouldn't take a risk on.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

One can not promise a return but also misrepresent the likelihood of a return.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 22, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the normally open Sherman Pass -> Beech Seal, right? That's 6700 ft long, say averages 70 ft wide.  They pump at 1000 gpm.  To open they'd need 54 straight hours for an 18" base assuming they can convert 100% of that water to snow (not realistic:  they got to have water returning so pipes don't freeze & less efficient snowmaking at warmer temps meaning even more will return to their ponds).   Now add on that there's been melting and they don't have much money....

Realistically they need a bigger window like Magic's 5 days to open because of inherent inefficiencies of non-automatic snowguns.  Many ski areas need on the order of 2 hours to turn a trail on from top to bottom once the pipes are fully charged.  Now add on that they need to shut down and move the guns down the hill as they make the snow.

Makes sense they're not open yet.[/QUOTE]

Incidentally Bolton has announced opening day as the 26th on Bear Run only.  For quite a while their typical opening was just the mid mountain lift, it's only in the last few years they've been opening top to bottom, so this year is hardly unprecedented (except in terms of the date...)

Also Bolton did not just build a hotel with other peoples' money and make a big hullabaloo about snowmaking upgrades, so it really shouldn't be surprising that they're not getting dragged through the mud about opening late.  After all, they have always had rather uninspiring snowmaking, so this is par for the course for them given the year and the weather.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

Keelhauled; said:
			
		

> Also Bolton did not just build a hotel with other peoples' money and make a big hullabaloo about snowmaking upgrades, so it really shouldn't be surprising that they're not getting dragged through the mud about opening late.  After all, they have always had rather uninspiring snowmaking, so this is par for the course for them given the year and the weather.


Bingo.  And Bolton didn't make their snowmaking system worse.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2015)

But it's also a competitor to Burke, has had larger snowmaking windows, more natural snow, likely more revenue to make snow with.......and they still are right where Burke is.


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## doublediamond (Dec 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> But it's also a competitor to Burke, has had larger snowmaking windows, more natural snow, likely more revenue to make snow with.......and they still are right where Burke is.



But BurQue won't open until the 8th.


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## Keelhauled (Dec 22, 2015)

Yeah but the point is in terms of newsworthiness Burke has been deeply involved in the EB-5 program, which is of more than passing interest in VT, and has used the program to make major investments that aren't showing results.  This is especially true if the hotel delay is a result of some kind of bureaucratic mess between the resort and the state.  If Burke had self-financed their investments I don't expect there would be news reports about their failure to open.  After all, "Resort uses controversial immigrant investment money to build improvements that fail to deliver" is a more interesting headline than "Resort picks terrible year to spend money in."


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> But it's also a competitor to Burke, has had larger snowmaking windows, more natural snow, likely more revenue to make snow with.......and they still are right where Burke is.


Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make. But I guess....






I guess comparing Bolton to Burke on potential snowmaking shortcomings when the weather is poor is now verboten?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 22, 2015)

Apparently.... Given that 70 simultaneous gun potential for next year at Burke is still considered "poor"


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> I guess comparing Bolton to Burke on potential snowmaking shortcomings when the weather is poor is now verboten?



Nobody has come even close to saying that.  All that has been said is that there are different angles involved.  EB-5 is not a Star Wars robot.  And VTDigger has a particular interest in EB-5 related happenings. I can't say that I blame them.

To suggest that complaining about Burke's snowmaking is "hating" is silly.  Their snowmaking really does suck.  It's not an exaggeration at all. It's reality.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Their snowmaking really does suck.  It's not an exaggeration at all. It's reality.










> To suggest that complaining about Burke's snowmaking is "hating" is silly.


What I'm suggesting is that complaining here is so over the top, that when a comparison to another resort is made about the difficulty of making snow this year, everyone jumps to the defense of the other resort and piles on even harder on Burke. That is called hating.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 23, 2015)

They are going to have some work to do after temps hit sixty degrees tomorrow.


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## wtcobb (Dec 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They are going to have some work to do after temps hit sixty degrees tomorrow.



So will everyone else I'm afraid...


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## VTKilarney (Dec 24, 2015)

I can't believe they aren't making snow today!  WTF!


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## deadheadskier (Dec 24, 2015)

Why WTF?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Why WTF?


It was a joke.  It's sixty degrees out.


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## River19 (Dec 25, 2015)

8-12" possible on Tuesday


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## mriceyman (Dec 25, 2015)

River19 said:


> 8-12" possible on Tuesday



would be a big help


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 28, 2015)

Guns blazing this morning:


BurkeMorningSnowmaking by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2015)

Looks ttb. Wonder how many guns


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Guns blazing this morning:
> 
> 
> BurkeMorningSnowmaking by Tim_NEK, on Flickr



That looks A LOT better.  More like the old Burke.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Looks ttb. Wonder how many guns



It is kind of deceiving. Only TTB on the upper mtn.


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## River19 (Dec 28, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> It is kind of deceiving. Only TTB on the upper mtn.




So less than the 211 guns Mt Snow had ripping 160miles south of Burke.....

Joking aside, at least they fired them up.....heck it means they at least found water !!!!!! Baby steps.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 28, 2015)

Water is most definitely not a problem right now


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## VTKilarney (Dec 28, 2015)

They reported 27 guns.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> They reported 27 guns.



Something seems wrong there.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 28, 2015)

Looks like Burke is the place to be in January !

http://skiburke.com/events-and-activities/event-calendar/show/2016-01-01/2016-01-31


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Something seems wrong there.



And they posted:



> Snow making guns are fired up and have been since last evening.



Yet the fans are silent...


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## halfpintvt (Dec 28, 2015)

Holy Snow Guns!! 4:30 this afternoon as seen from Darling Hill Rd


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Looks like Burke is the place to be in January !
> 
> http://skiburke.com/events-and-activities/event-calendar/show/2016-01-01/2016-01-31



Yeah, they are killing it.....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ss20 (Dec 28, 2015)

I go to this thread when I need to laugh or need to feel good about the 350ft bump I teach at.  Seriously, the sarcasm int his thread is comedic gold.

Seriously though, good for you guys that you've got double-digit snow guns blasting.  I've been lurking in this thread and am glad I don't have to deal with the crap you guys deal with.  Never skied Burke, but it's on the list.


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## Smellytele (Dec 29, 2015)

Burke just like Florida - nice place to visit (when the conditions are right) but I wouldn't want to live there (nor have it my home hill)


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2015)

Ouch lol


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## wtcobb (Dec 29, 2015)

> There are no events.



Definite ouch.

New Year's Day Kingdom Trails is hosting a fat bike demo (assuming the ground is in good condition). At least there's that?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm not sure how well attended the events they have held have been.  Their photos are very strategic, which is smart if recent events weren't well attended.  They said that they had about 20 kids at their gingerbread house making event.  That's probably about 8 families, which is not at all impressive.  

There is one photo of the comedy show where they slipped and you can get an idea of what the crowd was.  It doesn't look like there was much of a crowd at all.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

As of last week you could book a room for arrival on the hotel's projected opening date of 1/15/16.  As of today... you can't book a room for that date. 

The earliest you can book a room is January 23rd.  A prudent person would assume that MLK weekend is now lost.


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## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

Man those people in the audience look thrilled to be there......probably on the payroll getting paid to attend.  JK.....sort of....

Fat bike.....I think we will be there......


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## wtcobb (Dec 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Man those people in the audience look thrilled to be there......probably on the payroll getting paid to attend.  JK.....sort of....



Attended the show for a free stay at the hotel, redeem by 12/31/15 :lol:


----------



## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> Attended the show for a free stay at the hotel, redeem by 12/31/15 :lol:



At this point we are only left with good humor......you have to laugh, otherwise you would cry.

On a serious note.....how many people you think it will take to effectively staff that hotel?  You think enough "good" people are still not working at this point to staff it up this late in the season?  I know of only one person who had been fired or at least was close and it was their 3rd job.....which sadly is typical of the area.  I figure with my hands in a bunch of places the NEK I would have heard more noise about people being hired.....

I saw their were some orientation pics a while back......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

Looking at glimpses of the audience from the photos posted on Facebook, I am guessing that there were between twenty and thirty people in attendance.  But it's really just a guess.  It's definitely clear that the audience was very light.

The timing of the event was pretty rough.  It was the day after Christmas at a closed ski resort.  The weather definitely did not help.

They don't seem to use events as a way to generate excitement for the mountain.  They seem to insist that they be money-makers on their own.  For example, they are charging $10 per person ($20 for a family of four) for a presentation about owls tonight.  I'll pass on that one.

EDIT: They just cancelled the owl event.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Man those people in the audience look thrilled to be there......probably on the payroll getting paid to attend.  JK.....sort of....
> 
> Fat bike.....I think we will be there......



It's too bad.  And it is sad for the performers.  Pretty much ensures that they won't return if they don't get a good crowd.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> At this point we are only left with good humor......you have to laugh, otherwise you would cry.
> 
> On a serious note.....how many people you think it will take to effectively staff that hotel?  You think enough "good" people are still not working at this point to staff it up this late in the season?  I know of only one person who had been fired or at least was close and it was their 3rd job.....which sadly is typical of the area.  I figure with my hands in a bunch of places the NEK I would have heard more noise about people being hired.....
> 
> I saw their were some orientation pics a while back......



We can only laugh I guess.  I imagine that this may be the season that breaks Q for good.  

As to the staffing, like everything else, I imagine that they are lying through their teeth by saying that everything is fine.  It is not.  They can't even hire enough staff to barely run the ski area.  How are they going to run the Hotel?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Looking at glimpses of the audience from the photos posted on Facebook, I am guessing that there were between twenty and thirty people in attendance.  But it's really just a guess.  It's definitely clear that the audience was very light.
> 
> The timing of the event was pretty rough.  It was the day after Christmas at a closed ski resort.  The weather definitely did not help.
> 
> ...



So they cancelled the owl event.  That means that, during a crucial holiday week for them and the condo owners, NOTHING is going on up at the mountain.  Sad, very sad.  At least TRY to do something.


----------



## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

An Owl event? 

Gingerbread house contests?

Comedians to an empty house?

Oh, look February is loaded end to end with....well, the Super Bowl at the Tamarack......well at least the Super Bowl won't be canceled.  Perhaps they should change the link from "Events" to "Event".......

I don't want to keep kicking them when their down.......finding the positive.......they found water.....they have 20 to 35 snow guns making snow.......BMA has gas money to bus their racers to other mountains with snow making capability.....and the hotel could possibly be open in February provided they can find people to work in it.....and technically the hotel is only slightly over a month overdue to open at this point......what else could possibly go wrong right?

I bet you condos are selling like hotcakes before a marathon, right?


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

Did anyone see the cartoon they posted to their Facebook page a few days ago as "holiday humor"?  The comments are all negative.  I am sure that some people found it funny, but only a moron would fail to understand that there are lots of people out there who wouldn't find it amusing.


----------



## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Did anyone see the cartoon they posted to their Facebook page a few days ago as "holiday humor"?  The comments are all negative.  I am sure that some people found it funny, but only a moron would fail to understand that there are lots of people out there who wouldn't find it amusing.
> 
> View attachment 18321



Jeebus......that is pretty friggin' questionable even for someone as sick as I am


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 29, 2015)

yup--  tasteless.  But TOTALLY in character.  I would have posted this when I was 17 years old.  But with some seasoning and many lessons in marketing learned the hard way it looks like a really dumb post.  

This last weekend their ticket selling staff was told they should not open the customer service office over the weekend.  SO, you can ski free at Jay with a Burke pass but Q'dumb was planning to make it so folks w/o passes could not get passes over the first weekend of the holiday break. Fortunately, one of their staff stepped up and said she would man the office from 9-2 on Saturday and Sunday.  I do not know about Saturday, but she was quite busy on Sunday. You cannot make this stuff up.




VTKilarney said:


> Did anyone see the cartoon they posted to their Facebook page a few days ago as "holiday humor"?  The comments are all negative.  I am sure that some people found it funny, but only a moron would fail to understand that there are lots of people out there who wouldn't find it amusing.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Comedians to an empty house?


Don't despair.  Here is the next act coming to comedy night:

"Best known as the guitarist and drummer from the hysterical World Gone Crazy Comedy Band, Joe Long and Gary Marino began performing as a duo in 2014 as "Sauce-n-Cheese", hosting comedy shows, fundraisers and resort shows. Which one is Sauce and which one is Cheese? They'll never tell! But they do preform popular song parodies and impressions from the side splitting World Gone Crazy Show as well as stand up, fake commercials and audience interactive trivia and fun!"

I took a look at a promotional video on Youtube, and let's just say that I'm not calling for tickets.  They sing song parodies such as "I get by with a little help from Depends" (sung to the Beatles tune "I get by with a little help from my friends").  Wacky stuff!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> yup--  tasteless.  But TOTALLY in character.  I would have posted this when I was 17 years old.  But with some seasoning and many lessons in marketing learned the hard way it looks like a really dumb post.
> 
> This last weekend their ticket selling staff was told they should not open the customer service office over the weekend.  SO, you can ski free at Jay with a Burke pass but Q'dumb was planning to make it so folks w/o passes could not get passes over the first weekend of the holiday break. Fortunately, one of their staff stepped up and said she would man the office from 9-2 on Saturday and Sunday.  I do not know about Saturday, but she was quite busy on Sunday. You cannot make this stuff up.



Sounds about right for that crew.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> yup--  tasteless.  But TOTALLY in character.  I would have posted this when I was 17 years old.  But with some seasoning and many lessons in marketing learned the hard way it looks like a really dumb post.


If I ran a ski resort and my marketing manager posted this, it would have been removed and there would have been an instant apology posted on Facebook.  My marketing manager would be looking for a new job as well.  I'm all for giving people chances, but there has to be a least a baseline of competency first.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

"There are actual paying patrons at the Tamarack!  Quick, get the iPhone!"






:lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If I ran a ski resort and my marketing manager posted this, it would have been removed and there would have been an instant apology posted on Facebook.  My marketing manager would be looking for a new job as well.  I'm all for giving people chances, but there has to be a least a baseline of competency first.



If I had to guess, considering that their PR person (Jessica) seems to be doing a good job and is really trying to be diplomatic, I would presume that Q himself went on and posted this stupid post.  He likes doing stuff like that I hear.


----------



## oldtimer (Dec 29, 2015)

any insight into what has gone wrong on the training hill?

a) only have water pump capacity for 25 to 30 guns?  thus cannot run the air/water guns and the fans at the same time?

b) not enough electrical service for the big electric air compressor and the fans?

c) pumping water from the river to the pond cannot service both?

d) something is broken on the training hill?

e) they have not had the instructions on the fans guns printed yet?


It is all well and good to say that BMA is OK to wait until the 4th or 5th.  But IF they open, perhaps some of their clients would like more than one white stripe of death available?

frustrating.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> If I had to guess, considering that their PR person (Jessica) seems to be doing a good job and is really trying to be diplomatic, I would presume that Q himself went on and posted this stupid post.  He likes doing stuff like that I hear.



That would explain why it's still there.


.


----------



## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That would explain why it's still there.
> 
> 
> .



That can be the only explanation why it is still there


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> any insight into what has gone wrong on the training hill?
> 
> a) only have water pump capacity for 25 to 30 guns?  thus cannot run the air/water guns and the fans at the same time?
> 
> ...



Hard telling since I am not there or in the know on that one.  Good inferences might be lack of cold and dry enough air, lack of staff to do it, and lack of $$$$ to run them.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Hard telling since I am not there or in the know on that one.  Good inferences might be lack of cold and dry enough air, lack of staff to do it, and lack of $$$$ to run them.



It was more than cold enough last night this morning. They are only saying they got 3" snowfall so far... another warmup later in the week. Let's face it, Ary just doesn't want to open bad enough.

Coverage still looks thin approaching the MBx. You'd think the smart know-it-all owner would want to absolutely bury that area in front of the webcam around the lift and in front of the new lodge, one for advertisement, and two, so they wouldn't have to go back and re-do thin cover.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> It was more than cold enough last night this morning. They are only saying they got 3" snowfall so far... another warmup later in the week. Let's face it, Ary just doesn't want to open bad enough.


As critical as I am of Q Burke, they have blown lots of snow that they had to realize would melt. (Compare Burke to Magic Mountain, who has yet to blow any snow).  I see this as more a complete lack of adequate infrastructure.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> As critical as I am of Q Burke, they have blown lots of snow that they had to realize would melt. (Compare Burke to Magic Mountain, who has yet to blow any snow).  I see this as more a complete lack of adequate infrastructure.



Does he fill the pool with a hose, or with pails of water...


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> It was more than cold enough last night this morning. They are only saying they got 3" snowfall so far... another warmup later in the week. Let's face it, Ary just doesn't want to open bad enough.
> 
> Coverage still looks thin approaching the MBx. You'd think the smart know-it-all owner would want to absolutely bury that area in front of the webcam around the lift and in front of the new lodge, one for advertisement, and two, so they wouldn't have to go back and re-do thin cover.



You struck the nail on the head.  One thing that has been consistent is that Ary DOESN'T CARE about running the resort as it should and investing any money or effort at all.  His measure of success is how much of Daddy's money he saved and did not spend.  He has taken this approach with every decision--retain a qualified management team or fire them all and save the money?  Save the money.  Rent compressors for snowmaking or save money?  Save money.  Keep existing benefits for employees or save money?  Save money.  Take care of BMA or save money?  Save money.  Keep a great relationship with KT or fight over a petty amount of money?  Money.  

They are in this to flip it.  They don't care at all about the community or the past.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

Just got the latest update.  This line stood out:



> Although we have a commitment to BMA to get their training hill online, given the unusual weather challenges we have faced they understand the importance of getting atleast one trail open for public use during this Holiday week.  We have made a significant amount of snow on the training hill already and feel confident we can have that lane open by Monday.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got the latest update.  This line stood out:



Yep, saw that and just shook my head. Never happen without Snowfall help, and still might not happen with it melting out from underneath. The pictures don't lie, they didn't put as much down as they thought they did. Once groomed, it would be very thin.

After they drive a stake thru the heart of the Monster that is sucking the life out of Burke, First thing should be take control of the Fanguns, and the Poma. ABOSOLUTEY FRIGGEN BURY the training slope. Get BMA going, GO to every school, college, university within a reasonable travel distance, and offer them an ALMOST free deal to come train and use the Training Slope and Poma (No, not the whole mountain, just the training area) Get as much as a positive vibe going as possible with this. If the people are happy, they will spread the word, and day tix and passes for the rest of the mountain will start selling themselves. Make it so people WANT to be there again.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

I didn't really understand their comment about the training hill.  The training hill is part of their ONLY way down from the top.  Therefore, if they want to get at least "one trail open for the public", they would have to have the training hill open.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.  Maybe I'm just confused.

How sad that we are still talking about Burke trying to get "one trail open" about a week and a half from now.  If that doesn't drive home just how bad things are, I'm not sure what would.

I'm starting to think that we should have a Q Burke and Magic Mountain death pool.


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## oldtimer (Dec 29, 2015)

for clarity-  they are talking about opening now on jan 1 or 2-  so that is an improvement over their last prediction.  But, as I said in my earlier post they are putting off doing the training hill.  very, very curious.

see new pics posted on FB page just now.  looks good for Willoughby to Bear Den to Lower foxes.  Sad looking fan guns with no snow being produced.  WHY BOTHER?   me thinks that others bought the guns and are now being told "Sorry-  just kidding about them being used to get you on line quickly"-


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## VTKilarney (Dec 29, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> for clarity-  they are talking about opening now on jan 1 or 2-  so that is an improvement over their last prediction.  But, as I said in my earlier post they are putting off doing the training hill.  very, very curious.



I'm curious to see if they open that early.  They said that it was natural snow dependent, and we didn't get that much snow.  I'm crossing my fingers that it's enough to get their one trail open.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

I also wondered if a certain Ski Academy purchased said guns and now Q is stiffing them by not running them.  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I also wondered if a certain Ski Academy purchased said guns and now Q is stiffing them by not running them.  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.



Hey hey....take it easy on Q......they just discovered water......baby steps.

"....so you bought new fan guns?  Whose water are you going to use and whose pumps?  You know that costs us money, who will pay that?"


----------



## River19 (Dec 29, 2015)

sorry dupe


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

River19 said:


> Hey hey....take it easy on Q......they just discovered water......baby steps.
> 
> "....so you bought new fan guns?  Whose water are you going to use and whose pumps?  You know that costs us money, who will pay that?"



I would not run that by that Qasshole.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm starting to think that we should have a Q Burke and Magic Mountain death pool.



Yes but Magic doesn't have a $55 million plus hotel built with other peoples money.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 29, 2015)

It's not a usable hotel *Q*uite yet...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yes but Magic doesn't have a $55 million plus hotel built with other peoples money.



No, but Magic certainly has a lot of other things built using "other" people's money, or specifically coop money.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 29, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> No, but Magic certainly has a lot of other things built using "other" people's money, or specifically coop money.


Name them. I can't think of anything new. Lodge, nope. Lifts, nope. Nothing even remotely close to $55 mil. You could probably buy the place for under $3 mil. today. Put the $3,000 everyone put together & it wouldn't even equal $1 mil. Trying to compare the investments of other peoples money in the two mountains is silly.


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## River19 (Dec 30, 2015)

Is that grass I see peeking through the snow on the webcam ?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> Is that grass I see peeking through the snow on the webcam ?



That area around the lift probably has grass and weeds that are taller than 6 inches, so yes.

And a groomer drove by (toward the ski trails) during the 30 seconds I watched the cam .


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## River19 (Dec 30, 2015)

Man that is slim pickings when we are talking 4-6" at the base of the MBE......


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Name them. I can't think of anything new. Lodge, nope. Lifts, nope. Nothing even remotely close to $55 mil. You could probably buy the place for under $3 mil. today. Put the $3,000 everyone put together & it wouldn't even equal $1 mil. Trying to compare the investments of other peoples money in the two mountains is silly.



The amount was not my point; the "other people's money" was the point. 


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> And a groomer drove by (toward the ski trails) during the 30 seconds I watched the cam .


They are pushing out the snow to see if there is enough to open for this weekend.  We picked up another couple of inches during the day yesterday, so hopefully there is enough.  

I agree that there seems to be a real gap in their snowmaking at the MBx base.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2015)

Update: They are opening on January 1st.  All guest services will be at the Sherburne Lodge.  I wonder if they will be running a shuttle.  $45 to ski one trail.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 30, 2015)

River19 said:


> Man that is slim pickings when we are talking 4-6" at the base of the MBE......





VTKilarney said:


> I agree that there seems to be a real gap in their snowmaking at the MBx base.



The trail down to the MBX looks to be well covered and there are a couple of the new fan guns right there too (can't tell if they are on in the webcam).

The area where you can see the tall grass poking up is not part of the ski slope. It is the roped off area under the bottom section of the lift. all that is there is the natural snow that fell over the last 24 hours.

Edit to add they are blowing on the lower mountain this morning.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Update: They are opening on January 1st.  All guest services will be at the Sherburne Lodge.  I wonder if they will be running a shuttle.  $45 to ski one trail.



Good that they are opening.  Too bad that they have eliminated most services, and parking, at MidBurke.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2015)

Another January weekend is apparently lost.  The hotel now can't be booked prior to Monday, January 25th.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2015)

What happens first, Q's hotel opens or a sale closing happens at Saddlback?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> What happens first, Q's hotel opens or a sale closing happens at Saddlback?



Or the red chair at Magic getting inspected?

I'm really struggling with whether or not to go on Friday.  There will be only one trail open and a LOT of pent up demand.  But I'd really like to get out and ski.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 30, 2015)

You've got the pass, I'd say go get a few runs and start getting your money's worth. At least until it gets too crowded and unbearable.

Me, I'll wait. Not paying $45 for a single trail that's not even TTB yet. I'd actually rather go to Whaleback with only the learning slope open, and spend money where it'll be actually appreciated.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You've got the pass, I'd say go get a few runs and start getting your money's worth. At least until it gets too crowded and unbearable.
> 
> Me, I'll wait. Not paying $45 for a single trail that's not even TTB yet. I'd actually rather go to Whaleback with only the learning slope open, and spend money where it'll be actually appreciated.





VTKilarney said:


> Or the red chair at Magic getting inspected?
> 
> I'm really struggling with whether or not to go on Friday.  There will be only one trail open and a LOT of pent up demand.  But I'd really like to get out and ski.



Agreed.  Considering the angst, that you've paid the money, and that you've been waiting a long time, I say go. 

I can personally say that I regret 2005-2006 not going when I could have.  That year was similar to this one in that it sucked for the first half.  I had a Burke pass and kept waiting and waiting for better snow to come.  Guess what?  I found myself driving up there the last day of the season regretting that I had not gone a few more times.  I did go a fair number of days, but I could have gone more before the pass was worthless.

Since then I always go if I can....even if it is for an hour or two.  Especially now that my pass costs some coin...more so than a Burke pass.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2015)

Can't get the webcam to load this morning. Ary must be hiding something again 

Should we start a pool on what time they get the MBx up and running and loading correctly tomorrow?


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## River19 (Dec 31, 2015)

Foggy soupy mess right now here in Burke area.....soft melty snow and 34-35degrees......


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2015)

Webcam is up and the chair is running.  

There was an article in today's Caledonian Record.  Stenger said that the hotel opening date would be announced to the public next week.  Reservations through January 21st have been cancelled.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 31, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Reservations through January 21st have been cancelled.



Nightmare for getting some much needed income flowing...


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Webcam is up and the chair is running.
> 
> There was an article in today's Caledonian Record.  Stenger said that the hotel opening date would be announced to the public next week.  Reservations through January 21st have been cancelled.



Missing 2 out of 3 critical holiday periods is bad....very bad.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 31, 2015)

I guess nobody is there.I just watcjed the cam for almost 5 minutes and never saw 1 person anywhere near or on the lift.


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## River19 (Dec 31, 2015)

Let's be clear here, over the summer we all thought 12/11 was ambitious for the hotel and didn't have much faith that they would hit that date, but I always thought they might miss it by like 2 weeks and be open for Christmas/New Years for sure.  I also thought the investment in the snow making equipment while not a cure-all I thought would put them in a much better place than previous years.

I never in my skeptical mindset ever thought the hotel wouldn't be open in all December and all January...........or thought the snowmaking could be worse than in previous years......

Very disappointing is putting it mildly, this is starting to really fall into "epic fail" territory........sad for everyone.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 31, 2015)

Oh wait,they dont open till tomorrow.But the lift is still running.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Oh wait,they dont open till tomorrow.But the lift is still running.



That's not unusual.  They run lifts often before opening to ensure that things are working.  I also think that there are icing conditions up there and with a detach you are supposed to run them in such conditions to prevent icing.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2015)

I think we are being a little harsh on their snowmaking efforts. Last night they had a _MASSIVE_ 11 guns blowing snow at one time.  This morning they had 16 guns going.  Yup... you read that right... 16 guns all at the same time.  I'm surprised that they aren't putting on clinics for other ski areas.  :-D


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## River19 (Dec 31, 2015)

I can scoop the 4-5" in my yard in Lyndonville, throw it in my truck and dump it on the lower mountain to double what they have if need be......


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## xwhaler (Dec 31, 2015)

Head on a swivel most of the day at Ragged today as well.  All sorts of ability levels on limited terrain and variable conditions.  Was surprised I didn't see more collisions out there


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## the original trailboss (Dec 31, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Nightmare for getting some much needed income flowing...



December 30, 2015 (middle of a holiday week-regardless of conditions) : Tamarack Grill was closed. Meanwhile, in downtown East Burke both the Foggy Goggle and the Burke Publick House had full parking lots. Duh !


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2015)

the original trailboss said:


> December 30, 2015 (middle of a holiday week-regardless of conditions) : Tamarack Grill was closed. Meanwhile, in downtown East Burke both the Foggy Goggle and the Burke Publick House had full parking lots. Duh !



How many Green Plates at those places?  I bet a lot....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2016)

It can't be easy to sell hotel rooms when they Boston Globe singles Q Burke out for not even being open.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...iday-skiing/l2vAD3rqKxouX4j3maFueP/story.html




.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2016)

And here is their snow report at 7:15 AM on opening day:




.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 1, 2016)

That's not the report that came up for me about 15-20 minutes ago... It is annoying that the webcam doesn't run at 7:10am though...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 1, 2016)

0730 and nothing on FB for Opening Day yet....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That's not the report that came up for me about 15-20 minutes ago... It is annoying that the webcam doesn't run at 7:10am though...



Hmm... I wonder if their mobile site is updated differently.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> 0730 and nothing on FB for Opening Day yet....



The iPhone must have crashed


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## River19 (Jan 1, 2016)

No webcam still........a couple green dots in a sea of red dots.......looking forward to a report of some folks that hit the slope


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## mbedle (Jan 1, 2016)

Its good to see them running Microsoft Security Essentials. Looks like a virus might have taking it down.... lol


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2016)

No doubt Q posted this comment himself.....



> Light snow continues to fall and we have a TON of smiling faces on the mountain for the first runs of the season and of 2016. Just a reminder now that Q Burke is open for the season, all QB only season pass holders should be skiing and riding here. Thank you to Jay Peak Resort for letting us ski and ride "pre-season".



What a douche with the comment of "all QB only season pass holders should be skiing and riding here".  A more diplomatic way would have been to say, "now that we are open, we look forward to seeing all our Q-only passholders joining us this weekend!  Looking forward to having you all here!"


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## River19 (Jan 2, 2016)

So.......any of those happy smiling faces have a report?  How was THE trail?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> So.......any of those happy smiling faces have a report?  How was THE trail?



Looks like a few BMA kids.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2016)

Guess who just posted a video of opening day with the Chemical Brothers providing the soundtrack?


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## River19 (Jan 2, 2016)

Ha !!!!!

I just drove through the parking lots and there was nothing at the base lodge as expected....20 cars maybe.....all probably working there.

Up at Mid Burke.........cars were sparse, plenty of parking left in those little lots......we watched the chair for 5 mins, saw 8 people........I was looking for the "Tons of smiling faces"........maybe 10 pair of skis at the mid burke lodge......

Be nice when the mountain is actually open, not just a run or two......


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## VTKilarney (Jan 2, 2016)

I can't imagine what the trail is like at the end of the day.  It can't be good. I'm going to get out tomorrow.  


.


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## oldtimer (Jan 2, 2016)

Skiing today was much better than Friday.  The snow on the upper Willoughby is holding up reasonably well.  The quality of the snow on the training hill is GREAT for free skiing.  Not sure how the BMA kids are going to like it (until we get the inevitable thaw/freeze).  Plenty of parking in the 2 lots by mid-burke.

  SUCKS & STUPID that they do not sell tickets at Mid-Burke.  I met several folks who had to drive BACK down to the base to spend lots of money, then drive BACK up and park well away from the lodge.  did I mention that it is STUPID and it SUCKS that they do not have a POS terminal in the mid lodge.  DUMB.   Double DUMB.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> SUCKS & STUPID that they do not sell tickets at Mid-Burke.  I met several folks who had to drive BACK down to the base to spend lots of money, then drive BACK up and park well away from the lodge.  did I mention that it is STUPID and it SUCKS that they do not have a POS terminal in the mid lodge.  DUMB.   Double DUMB.



And they used to have one.  She doubled as a coffee shop, ski shop, and even to cover the Bar if needed.  Lame that they got rid of her.  How stupid.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 3, 2016)

This is a photo they posted to their Facebook page.  It was taken on Sunday.  I decided to work some on the weekend so I can get out mid-week.  I think that I made the right call.


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## Edd (Jan 3, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> This is a photo they posted to their Facebook page.  It was taken on Sunday.  I decided to work some on the weekend so I can get out mid-week.  I think that I made the right call.
> 
> View attachment 18395



You're probably right. That looks crowded for Burke.


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## Brad J (Jan 3, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> SUCKS & STUPID that they do not sell tickets at Mid-Burke.  I met several folks who had to drive BACK down to the base to spend lots of money, then drive BACK up and park well away from the lodge.  did I mention that it is STUPID and it SUCKS that they do not have a POS terminal in the mid lodge.  DUMB.   Double DUMB.


I was at Burke last year and was equally upset by the no sale of tickets at Mid Burke lodge, seams like a no brainer, but I guess thats the point. Still I am really looking forward to ski there this year , good lifts great terrain, love the old-time fell of Mid Burke Lodge, I just hope I do not sit in the wrong table for lunch, a party of what I saw as regulars where not happy we were sitting there and encroached use to the point that we left before we were done with lunch. That did not discourage me from having a great day, i still get a kick out of the ruddiness.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2016)

Brad J said:


> I was at Burke last year and was equally upset by the no sale of tickets at Mid Burke lodge, seams like a no brainer, but I guess thats the point. Still I am really looking forward to ski there this year , good lifts great terrain, love the old-time fell of Mid Burke Lodge, I just hope I do not sit in the wrong table for lunch, a party of what I saw as regulars where not happy we were sitting there and encroached use to the point that we left before we were done with lunch. That did not discourage me from having a great day, i still get a kick out of the ruddiness.



Was their stuff there before you and you missed the cue?


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## Brad J (Jan 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Was their stuff there before you and you missed the cue?



No, but when one of the ladies slapped down her gloves in front of me that was my finial clue!!!! ( my wife was sitting across from me) They were same age as me 60's, I really would have thought absolutely nothing of it if all the tables where full or they were race kids, but adults?????


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2016)

Brad J said:


> No, but when one of the ladies slapped down her gloves in front of me that was my finial clue!!!! ( my wife was sitting across from me) They were same age as me 60's, I really would have thought absolutely nothing of it if all the tables where full or they were race kids, but adults?????



Weird.  Was it at Mid-Burke on a race day?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2016)

Arctic air arrived last night. Burke pounced on the opportunity with a grand total of 13 guns blowing snow.  Go Burke!


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 4, 2016)

*Burke Snowmaking, etc*

Well, the opening weekend could have been worse.  Upper Willoughby definitely got skied off and was not much fun after about 11 a.m., but it was not horrible.  The skiing on the training hill was great and the skiing got better every day.

The good news is that the fan guns on the training hill work very, very well.  Burke has a lot of snow there and the quality of the snow is great.  It has been confirmed that the current snowmaking bottleneck is water pump capacity.  Thus, they have the fan guns running on the lower training hill and that pretty much maxes out their water pumping capacity.  The were able to blow a bunch of high meadows while still working ont he training hill,but they were at capacity.  It is illogical to have spent all of that money on the fan guns and not simultaneously bought some more relatively cheap water pumping capacity.  Yes, I do know that logic often does not enter into the picture down their in the admin building.

THANK YOU to Bill Stenger for helping to guide the management "team" at Burke.  Junior. is still "the boss", but Bill is doing what can be done to push, prod, and cajole a very, very stubborn man.

Sure wish they would turn the webcam so it points back up at the mountain.  Looking at a hotel that they cannot open is annoying on many levels.


----------



## River19 (Jan 4, 2016)

So back to the observation from a few weeks ago that buying a bunch of guns but not increasing your ammo supply doesn't really do much for overall capacity now does it?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> So back to the observation from a few weeks ago that buying a bunch of guns but not increasing your ammo supply doesn't really do much for overall capacity now does it?



It sounds like the ability to cover the training hill has been improved, but that's the only actual benefit received from the new fan guns.  Judging by the hype that the resort has been putting out about these guns, I would have expected more.


.


----------



## benski (Jan 4, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> The good news is that the fan guns on the training hill work very, very well.  Burke has a lot of snow there and the quality of the snow is great.  It has been confirmed that the current snowmaking bottleneck is water pump capacity.  Thus, they have the fan guns running on the lower training hill and that pretty much maxes out their water pumping capacity.  The were able to blow a bunch of high meadows while still working ont he training hill,but they were at capacity.  It is illogical to have spent all of that money on the fan guns and not simultaneously bought some more relatively cheap water pumping capacity.  Yes, I do know that logic often does not enter into the picture down their in the admin building.
> 
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 4, 2016)

Thought that was why they installed a new booster pump? Didn't they say at the pass-holder's meeting that it took them from 400gpm to 1000gpm? You would think that would allow them to keep the fans and towers running somewhat simultaneously. I'd bet that those fans are quite thirsty running wide open in these temps though. Hope they get the lower area up and running before they run out of time with this cold snap.


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## doublediamond (Jan 4, 2016)

Weren't the fan guns paid by BMA?


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2016)

On FB

Mid-Burke Express is currently on delay. We are experiencing an electrical problem and working to fix this ASAP.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 4, 2016)

dlague said:


> On FB
> 
> Mid-Burke Express is currently on delay. We are experiencing an electrical problem and working to fix this ASAP.



That's funny.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2016)

dlague said:


> On FB
> 
> Mid-Burke Express is currently on delay. We are experiencing an electrical problem and working to fix this ASAP.



Looks like those problems are back.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2016)

Why not just run the Willoughby?  oh right...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Why not just run the Willoughby?  oh right...



Can't have any connection to the past.....


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## halfpintvt (Jan 4, 2016)

Fan guns blasting this morning.


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## oldtimer (Jan 4, 2016)

not much activity at the hotel


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 4, 2016)

11:43am - MBE is loading again


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2016)

And don't forget.....






I'm sure that there are some great deals to be had.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm surprised that they are making snow on the training hill and not on the lower mountain today.  Did the training hill need more of a base laid down?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm surprised that they are making snow on the training hill and not on the lower mountain today.  Did the training hill need more of a base laid down?



My guess is they only needed one last day to really complete Lower Warrens for the season. Then they can concentrate all available snow making "power" on the rest of the mountain.


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## River19 (Jan 4, 2016)

I watched that damn web cam off and on a few times from noon to 2:30 and I didn't' see anyone go up or come down....granted it is a monday after a holiday


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## oldtimer (Jan 4, 2016)

I can confirm:
a) yes-  they hope to not go back tot eh training hill after tomorrow.  There is a lot of snow there.

b) skier traffic.  Willoughby held up well with all 30 of us who skied today-  COLD.  

c) as I said earlier, very, very quiet down in the hotel zone.  You will be glad to know that there is water in both pools, but there is no magic carpet.   There is hower a crib work of 6 x 6's where the top of the magic carpet is to be.  That crib work is very, very dangerous should someone come into that area too hot.


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## River19 (Jan 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And don't forget.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have we heard from the marketing dept lately?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> Have we heard from the marketing dept lately?





via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## Monica (Jan 5, 2016)

How is Burke on snow this year?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2016)

Monica said:


> How is Burke on snow this year?



Three snowmaking trails are open that constitute one run from the top to Mid Burke.  Two natural snow trails with advisories for thin cover.  

They are hurting.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2016)

Just posted to their Facebook page:

Soooo disappointed in Q Burke. I originally had a ski in and ski out package for 9 people for Jan 8th. When the property called to tell me they hadnt finished building the accommodation and could not accommodate my large party size for the same package I was upset but they helped us rebook for the Jan 22nd. NOW they tell us again that they cannot accommodate us because they are still not done building!!!!! I dont think any of us will ever go back to this mountain. You would think their sister Peak would atleast be able to honor our Ski in and SKi out rates.... nope HUGE upcharge!

-----------

Nobody could have predicted that reaction, huh?


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## River19 (Jan 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Just posted to their Facebook page:
> 
> Soooo disappointed in Q Burke. I originally had a ski in and ski out package for 9 people for Jan 8th. When the property called to tell me they hadnt finished building the accommodation and could not accommodate my large party size for the same package I was upset but they helped us rebook for the Jan 22nd. NOW they tell us again that they cannot accommodate us because they are still not done building!!!!! I dont think any of us will ever go back to this mountain. You would think their sister Peak would atleast be able to honor our Ski in and SKi out rates.... nope HUGE upcharge!
> 
> ...



I'm fairly certain there are many stories out there like this seeing as how they were taking reservations for what turns out to be 2 months ahead of when they will eventually open.  Then again, will they open?

It appears the excuse given to this poster was that they are "still not done with the building"; based on the lack of activity around the hotel the past couple weeks, one must wonder if there is any significant progress being made to finishing it off.  Are they still waiting for actual furnishings?

Based on the forecast for the next 2 weeks it doesn't look like anything more than the token dustings are in the future...which sucks all around.  Before that piss poor forecast I was going to say that any real dumping would be a positive demand for condo rentals at least.  But no snow, no people, no hotel, no revenue......


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## Monica (Jan 6, 2016)

We need snow! Bonfire to the snow gods?


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## zeke (Jan 6, 2016)

Monica said:


> We need snow! Bonfire to the snow gods?



Is there a snow god that deals specifically with arrogance, ignorance and apathy? If so, I'd suggest praying to that one


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## oldtimer (Jan 6, 2016)

Right on.  




zeke said:


> Is there a snow god that deals specifically with arrogance, ignorance and apathy? If so, I'd suggest praying to that one


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2016)

zeke said:


> Is there a snow god that deals specifically with arrogance, ignorance and apathy? If so, I'd suggest praying to that one



+ 1


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## Monica (Jan 6, 2016)

Terrible!!!


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## River19 (Jan 6, 2016)

zeke said:


> Is there a snow god that deals specifically with arrogance, ignorance and apathy? If so, I'd suggest praying to that one



+3 or so


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2016)

Monica said:


> Terrible!!!



Sorry but I can't be sympathetic for Q at all. He's reaping what he sows.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## oldtimer (Jan 7, 2016)

Has anyone seen any movement in/around the hotel?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

I didn't see anything at all yesterday. I just assumed that it was interior work going on.  The only thing I saw was the installation of the magic carpet.  The east wing didn't appear to be heated. The west wing seemed to have a boiler running.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

The trail report says that they dropped the ropes on Upper Dipper.  I definitely didn't see that one coming.  That has got to be some seriously thin cover.


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## River19 (Jan 7, 2016)

The silence about the hotel and around the hotel is deafening.

Looks like the earliest date they are accepting room reservations is 1/25.....

Given the number of rooms/suites that need to be furnished/finished I would think the only way they hit that date would be to see mass activity begin early next week at the latest and that would be aggressive, right?  At least based on the bits and pieces I've read/heard there is an issue with furnishings and payment of furnishings.  

If the the physical furnishings are at least in the hotel or on site they have a shot, if they still need to be shipped,delivered etc. then there is a goodly number of trucks that need to show up and be unloaded, installed etc.

Assuming they can pull off the physical building portion by the 25th........

I'm still curious about the staffing of the hotel......this isn't like staffing the Tamarack......to effectively provide the service expected in this hotel will take a few well trained bodies and management.

Or did I miss something?


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## MG Skier (Jan 7, 2016)

I have a great Idea....bring your own furniture! Indoor Camping anyone?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

River19 said:


> The silence about the hotel and around the hotel is deafening.


Stenger was quoted last week in the Caledonian Record as saying that the opening date for the hotel would be announced early this week.  I guess that's yet another deadline missed.


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## River19 (Jan 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Stenger was quoted last week in the Caledonian Record as saying that the opening date for the hotel would be announced early this week.  I guess that's yet another deadline missed.



I thought I read that but then I started wondering since we didn't hear anything this week.......I thought I "misremembered"......


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The trail report says that they dropped the ropes on Upper Dipper.  I definitely didn't see that one coming.  That has got to be some seriously thin cover.



Upper Dipper, Big Dipper, Dipper Doodle, Wilderness, Powderhorn. Carriage Road, and Deer Run are all reported as open. :-o
Bring the rock skis.
I wonder if patrol has any bamboo left? ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Upper Dipper, Big Dipper, Dipper Doodle, Wilderness, Powderhorn. Carriage Road, and Deer Run are all reported as open. :-o
> Bring the rock skis.
> I wonder if patrol has any bamboo left? ;-)



So who do you think told them to open them?  I know that Patrol is fairly liberal, but maybe not this liberal.  Just saw this:



> We are happy to announce two more ropes have dropped for
> Dipper Doodle and Upper Dipper to be open for skiing and riding today.  All trails can be accessed at the Mid Burke Express which will only be
> servicing intermediate to expert skiers and riders today.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Stenger was quoted last week in the Caledonian Record as saying that the opening date for the hotel would be announced early this week.  I guess that's yet another deadline missed.



Hey, it' still "early" in a week.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So who do you think told them to open them?  I know that Patrol is fairly liberal, but maybe not this liberal.  Just saw this:


While not deep, the snow we do have is rather hard and dense. It may have set up enough to be skiable as long as the trail isn't too steep and/or rocky. I can't imagine all pitches of the Dippers are open. I would assume you would have to bypass sections via Deer Run.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

I was there yesterday and I can tell you that it was VERY ambitious to drop the ropes on these trails.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

Just got the Blast Email.  This line made me laugh...



> HUGE retail sale beginning tomorrow in the Trailside Retail shop. 20% off of everything in the store and 50% off discontinued logo apparel!  From hats to gloves, pants and jackets, even base layers - it's a perfect opportunity to refresh your winter gear.



When I was last there they had sold little to no Q logowear.  I am willing to bet that he will still have most of it after this latest "sale".  It's not the price that is the issue.


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## River19 (Jan 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got the Blast Email.  This line made me laugh...
> 
> 
> 
> When I was last there they had sold little to no Q logowear.  I am willing to bet that he will still have most of it after this latest "sale".  It's not the price that is the issue.



You're right.  It isn't the price.

And to top it off, there is no traffic going through the base lodge anyways......there hasn't been traffic through the base lodge since the bike park closed.  So even if 1 in 100 wanted to buy a Q logo item, it takes forever to get 100 people through there when there is no reason to be there other than to initially buy your lift ticket......which once you buy the last thing you do is hang around where there is no lift running.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

Maybe they are trying to get rid of t-shirts that say: "Q Burke Hotel - Open Since December, 2015."


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

River19 said:


> You're right.  It isn't the price.
> 
> And to top it off, there is no traffic going through the base lodge anyways......there hasn't been traffic through the base lodge since the bike park closed.  So even if 1 in 100 wanted to buy a Q logo item, it takes forever to get 100 people through there when there is no reason to be there other than to initially buy your lift ticket......which once you buy the last thing you do is hang around where there is no lift running.



The Bear sells; Q does not.  

Be sure to get these beauties from EBS if you still can.....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

I personally enjoy (some) of my REAL Burke gear




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 7, 2016)

Q Burke just posted this as a response to a comment on their Facebook page:

_As for the hotel we're gearing up for an early February date; beds arrived Tuesday and we have daily loads of equipment arriving to get ready to host our guests._

And yet the website is taking reservations for the last week of January.  How hard is it to refrain from selling rooms on dates that you know you won't be open?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted this as a response to a comment on their Facebook page:
> 
> _As for the hotel we're gearing up for an early February date; beds arrived Tuesday and we have daily loads of equipment arriving to get ready to host our guests._
> 
> And yet the website is taking reservations for the last week of January.  How hard is it to refrain from selling rooms on dates that you know you won't be open?



You expeQt too much of this Qrew.

And you just confirmed that they will now blow two out of three crucial holiday periods for the Hotel.  The last one will probably have a lackluster week because people just won't come now because they can't get their act together.

Too bad those locals won't come up and eat at the Tamarack, drink at the Bear Den, buy merchandise, take lessons, buy food in the cafeteria, etc.  Nothing like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2016)

Burke was featured on WCAX tonight:

http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=12120849&autostart=true

Pretty sad reminder about the local skiers (both here in Utah and there in VT) killed in an avalanche last season.


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## River19 (Jan 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted this as a response to a comment on their Facebook page:
> 
> _As for the hotel we're gearing up for an early February date; beds arrived Tuesday and we have daily loads of equipment arriving to get ready to host our guests._
> 
> And yet the website is taking reservations for the last week of January.  How hard is it to refrain from selling rooms on dates that you know you won't be open?



Just as I speculated yesterday, none of those furnishings were in the hotel yet..........

"Early February"  just like their announcement "Early this Week"......which still technically hasn't been announced unless a FB comment as a response is an "announcement".

If they aren't up and running the week of 2/7 they are kinds screwed.  The last real remaining holiday is the following weekend with President's Day and V-Day wrapped into one weekend getaway package.  Not exactly the weekend you want for your "first" weekend with a new staff running a $55M hotel.......

Speaking of staff.........where are they getting these people?  Are they trained?


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 8, 2016)

With the nimble mind and customer service attitude that Jr has displayed so far, how hard can it be to open up a little old hotel?




River19 said:


> Just as I speculated yesterday, none of those furnishings were in the hotel yet..........
> 
> "Early February"  just like their announcement "Early this Week"......which still technically hasn't been announced unless a FB comment as a response is an "announcement".
> 
> ...


----------



## River19 (Jan 8, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> With the nimble mind and customer service attitude that Jr has displayed so far, how hard can it be to open up a little old hotel?



True, you only need 3 people right? Q, a front desk clerk and a janitor/room service...right?  That is about how his "staffing" model fits into the hotel.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 8, 2016)

Who knows if they are really going to open in early February.  I've heard reports to the contrary, but then again the hotel sure looks close to being done.  

For the life of me, I don't understand why they have continuously taken reservations for dates that they knew they would not be open.  That seems so boneheaded.


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## oldtimer (Jan 8, 2016)

ahhhh duhhh-  they are BONEHEADED and it starts at the top.  They are stuck.  Open in February only to hemorrhage money until maybe June? (if they are lucky and do good marketing for the summer season).  

Mothball till June?  the state and investors are now really screaming about a ponzi scheme?

if they really have beds coming that is a good sign.  Meanwhile, there IS water in the pool-  what more could you need?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 8, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Meanwhile, there IS water in the pool-  what more could you need?



The rain this weekend should top it off


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## River19 (Jan 8, 2016)

Can they throw a friggin' pump in the pool and pump that shit to the rest of the snow guns?

Just askin'


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 8, 2016)

River19 said:


> Can they throw a friggin' pump in the pool and pump that shit to the rest of the snow guns?
> 
> Just askin'



Hey, at least they are making some headway now with the snow-making, much better than down at "Tragic Mountain"

:lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2016)

Better be sitting down y'all.  Look what Warren Miller is raffling off:



> We're giving away 2016 season passes to Sunrise Park Resort, Monarch Mountain, Wachusett Mountain & Q Burke Resort.



Just got word via their Email


----------



## River19 (Jan 10, 2016)

How much snow we losing right now?  I'm not in VT right now so I'm looking for some local observations.

Thanks


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 10, 2016)

Natural snow trails are gone, not that there was enough snow in the first place.  


.


----------



## River19 (Jan 10, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Natural snow trails are gone, not that there was enough snow in the first place.
> 
> 
> .



So the dippers?   What about in town?  Fat bike trails screwed?


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 10, 2016)

still 2-3 inches in my yard.  Fat bike should be fine once it sets up tomorrow.  Mountain had not made much headway on Dippers before they shut down on Friday.  They were   blowing on Dippers down low-  from the last dear run cross down.  Also some mounds on Little dipper and a huge gash where it looks like they had a gizer coming from the water pipe on Little Dipper that they froze up last winter.  Wonder if they every pressurized it after the freeze up or if last week was the first time since last winter?  Word on the street is that they used the warm weather on Saturday to put a weld repair on the pipe.

Skiing was remarkably good this weekend.  Theyput down a lot of snow on the lower mountain. and the natural up top was surprisingly fun to ski-  East Bowl, Carriage Rd, Wilderness, Lower Dougs-  had to pick your spots, but I skied most of it all day yesterday and today until well after noon-  will need a little ptex on the rockers, but no serious edge or core damage-  I consider that a grand success given the state of snow in New England.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2016)

Well, hopefully this was the January thaw and it is over.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 10, 2016)

I skied on Saturday and it was a good day out.  Crowds were very light for a weekend.  I'm still anxious to get some more terrain open. I stuck to the snowmaking terrain out of fear of damaging my bases.  Willoughby is getting old.  

There is still snow on the ground here. It's going to freeze up extremely firm.


----------



## River19 (Jan 11, 2016)

So it sounds like the skiing is good considering but the skier turnout is "meh".....is that a fair summary from what people are seeing.

Activity banging away at the hotel I assume based on their "soft announcement" for an "early" february opening?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 11, 2016)

It was good with the caveat that terrain was limited.  Still only one snowmaking route.


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 11, 2016)

hotel is pretty quiet-   there is NOT the usual frantic activity.  Baby steps on several fronts, like installing curtains in guest rooms etc-  but not what I have experienced before in a resort trying to rifle thru the punch list and open the doors.  Quite odd actually.

what is this word "crowds" you speak of?  all the usual suspents and a handful of day tickets.  no more than that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 11, 2016)

I got the sense that the weekend crowd was lighter than normal.  I'm guessing that a lot of people skipped out on the weekend because of Sunday's weather.  I can't imagine many people are buying day tickets.  Other mountains have a lot more terrain open, so Burke's product isn't that compelling right now for a day-tripper.

I agree that the hotel isn't exactly a beehive of activity.  From what I am hearing, early February may not happen.  But these are just rumors.

Given the economic disaster that this season is shaping up to be, I'm getting nervous about the snowmaking improvements that are scheduled for this summer.


----------



## River19 (Jan 11, 2016)

Given what you guys are confirming it feels like the "crowd" is largely people whoe have spent their money on season passes and feel compelled to get some runs in.  The day trippers are probably friends of said season pass holders.

Regarding the hotel, if they don't open for the weekend of 2/5-2/7 then I almost wouldn't bother.  You don't open a $55M hotel and work the bugs out on the premier holiday ski weekend in February.  And if they ahven't opened by then, what good is 5-6 weeks of the season prior to the dead period of mud season?  It almost makes sense to make your mistakes on the mountain bikers in the summer who a probably more forgiving as the bike park is more unique than the ski area....ie. they may come back for a second shot if you screw it up due to less lift served options than there are ski options.

But what the heck do I know.

Condo sales must be brisk based on the lack of contact from the "marketing dept.".......or maybe I'm wrong.....


----------



## River19 (Jan 12, 2016)

32 guns blazing away according to the Q post this morning......that and they seem to be praying for the 3-5" of snow that is supposed to drop over the next couple days.

I found myself reading some of the customer posts/comments on Qs FB page.....yikes.

Sounds like the Tamarack is still a hot mess, granted 3-4 years ago it wasn't "awesome" but it certainly was a place for drinks and wings back when Roger et al were tending bar pre-Jr.  It looks like they took something decent and destroyed it.....sad.

Did they ever announce an official Hotel opening date (again)?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2016)

River19 said:


> Did they ever announce an official Hotel opening date (again)?


Nope, but they are STILL taking reservations for dates that they won't be open.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

River19 said:


> 32 guns blazing away according to the Q post this morning......that and they seem to be praying for the 3-5" of snow that is supposed to drop over the next couple days.
> 
> I found myself reading some of the customer posts/comments on Qs FB page.....yikes.
> 
> ...



Big difference is that when I visited I would meet friends at the Tamarack for a drink or dinner.  It was nice.  We knew the locals working there, the food was good, the price was good.  Then Q destroyed it.  And destroyed it again.  None of us go now.


----------



## River19 (Jan 12, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Big difference is that when I visited I would meet friends at the Tamarack for a drink or dinner.  It was nice.  We knew the locals working there, the food was good, the price was good.  Then Q destroyed it.  And destroyed it again.  None of us go now.



We used to as well.

My wife and I would go snowshoeing etc. and always stop by for an early afternoon beer and some appetizer or something and depending on who is working the bar we would stay for a couple hours minimum.  Our friends would come up and have a beer and everyone would hang out enjoying each others company but also droppign cash into the business.

Now, I hear non stop horro stories from locals, weekenders, folks who used to work there, folks who still work there etc.  Haven't been by choice for quite some time.  I had to go to a funtion there last year, it sucked.  Badly.  Service was terrible, smoke filled the room, food was crap, prices were high, drinks boring.

I haven't even had the urge to check out the latest incarnation/debacle. I did read the comment/post that someone went to the supposed "sports bar" to watch a Pats game and found the place closed until 2pm or something......uh, every sports bar knows the biggest draws are NFL Sundays.....You open your doors early and stay late....a disgrace.

But I'm sure everything will be awesome with the hotel restaurants......the unopened hotel restaurants.

But we digress......how about those condos for sale !!!!!


----------



## River19 (Jan 14, 2016)

6 of 50 open today......snowmaking on Little and Big Dipper........

I watched the cam for 10 mins while on a conf call.....looked like low single digit people on the mountain today......so that begs the question.....if 6 of 50 trails are open and no one see it, are they really open? 

Anyone see an announcement on the QHotel?


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 14, 2016)

hotel:   still taking reservations starting Jan 23rd.  soft opening?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

> REMINDER/UPDATE: Due to the Patriots kickoff at 4:30 on Saturday, we  have moved the third season pass holder meeting to 4:15 Sunday, January  17th in the Kingdom Room.



Well this should be interesting...


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 15, 2016)

Burke's facebook page seems to have disappeared?   or is it just me?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

Facebook in general has been acting wonky this morning.


----------



## River19 (Jan 15, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Well this should be interesting...



Well, based on reports from the last meeting I was a little disappointed in the lack of passion at the meeting from both sides it seemed.  Again, I wasn't there, but.......I would hope now that we are steamrolling through the middle of January with not so much terrain open and with them thinking it is a wonderful thing that a second......second!!......run from top to middle/bottom will be open for January 16th.....

And the hotel that hasn't opened yet.  I don't think passholders really care too much about the hotel, it is about skiing conditions worthy of the price they paid. 30-40 guns in a week with ideal conditions.....


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

Yeah, the unwillingness to bring in portable compressors to help get them on track, after they saw what they were up against, speaks volumes. They seem unwilling to spend any more than they have to to gain ground on the poor hand the weather has dealt everyone this year.

But hey, at least the lifts ARE spinning, and the snowguns ARE running (yeah, I know, we all wish there were 3x as many running). There are SOME trails opened with conditions not being too overly bad.

It could be worse... just look at Magic... Heck, it's possible Saddleback will open before Magic!


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

It will be very interesting to see how many people show up this weekend.  With only two trails open from the top, things could get scraped off really quickly.  I can't imagine that they will get many day ticket sales.  It will most likely be a lot of condo owners and locals.

I believe that they are doing hotel tours.  Hopefully someone will report on how far along the hotel looks to be.


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## River19 (Jan 15, 2016)

If someone isn't a passholder, I don't see them skiing Burke this weekend, why would anyone spend their money there vs. other places with more terrain open.

And while I get that Magic is a shit-show, it has always been a shit-show and Jr et al are lucky some of their passhodlers feel better about the sorry situation in Burke by saying "it could be worse....." (in no way am I picking on MEtoVT btw) what they are dealing with in Burke is also a blatant disregard of the core business.....who cares about a hotel on a mountain with shitty skiing and no terrain open?  Broken record.......almost 6000 posts worth.  I know, I know......I'm repetitive.....

SSDD until further notice I guess.....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> And while I get that Magic is a shit-show, it has always been a shit-show.


And Magic hasn't had $55 million pumped into it to supposedly make it one of the big boys.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> (in no way am I picking on MEtoVT btw)



It's all good! I didn't take it that way!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

There was a time, I really wanted a condo at Burke, and was looking into it, but I'm really glad that I've held off and left my options open.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> There was a time, I really wanted a condo at Burke, and was looking into it, but I'm really glad that I've held off and left my options open.



It's definitely a very risky investment.  The ski area has yet to break even, and there are only so many white knights out there.  The Quiros family is not in the business of losing money.  Once there are no more EB-5 administrative fees to pull in, if the hotel and resort are losing money they will pull the plug.  

On the other hand, thanks to BMA the resort has a lot of protection from disappearing entirely. 

The real test is going to be the hotel.  If the hotel can pull in enough profits to keep the ski area alive, then there is a chance.  But their biggest problem is that the locals and mountain bikers are not spending nearly enough money at Quiros owned establishments.  The village itself has become the real center of summer activity.  

This summer will be very interesting to watch.  The hotel needs to be busy in the summer for Q Burke to have any chance.


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## River19 (Jan 15, 2016)

We looked at condos back in 2008ish and thought about buying one, but given the older condos up there at the time and what people wanted for them vs. what you got (an aging small-ass condo that needed love) we decided to build instead.  At the time the Bear Path stuff was approaching a million dollar ask and the only way they were worth that was if the walls were stuffed with $600K in cash.

So glad we chose the route we did.

I don't want my property value so directly tied to a situation as volatile as Burke Mountain.

Regarding the $55M investment......I look at that differently given that it is EB-5 money.  What I mean is that, in most cases, especially in the New England Ski and recreation business, if owners invest a sum as significant as $55M it shows a very deep commitment to the mountain and the business as it usually includes a large chunk of their own capital in the $55M along with some minority holders etc.  In this case, they invested $55M of someone else's money and they have very little skin in the game from a financial sense (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that account).  Consistent with my paradigm of investment = commitment......investing someone else's money from a foreign land where you may or may not really be on the hook for an ROI or ROC shows me a certain lack of commitment.  

That lack of commitment to the core business suggests to me perhaps their ultimate end game isn't running the "resort" as an ongoing concern but to window dress it for sale and collect fees along the way from the EB-5 process, related real estate deals etc.  And to give Jr. a job because based on this resume no one else will hire him but Sr.

From my seat, if Q, Stenger et al were really committed to establishing a long term viable business centered around the Burke Ski Mountain.....they would have possibly done the EB-5 thing for the hotel and then sunk a meaningful sum into the ski product first or concurrently with the hotel.  Every rational person understands that a hotel without a reason to stay there is just a big ass empty building answering a question no one has asked.......

But WTF do I know........


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> Regarding the $55M investment......I look at that differently given that it is EB-5 money.  What I mean is that, in most cases, especially in the New England Ski and recreation business, if owners invest a sum as significant as $55M it shows a very deep commitment to the mountain and the business as it usually includes a large chunk of their own capital in the $55M along with some minority holders etc.  In this case, they invested $55M of someone else's money and they have very little skin in the game from a financial sense


That's exactly the point I was trying to make.  No matter how much "other people's money" has been sunk into the resort, they are going to walk if they start losing their own money.  In other words, as soon as the EB-5 administrative fees (and insider land sales, etc.) stop covering operational losses, they are done.

Here is something that is troubling.  By all accounts, Jay Peak has been a huge success.  Skier visits are WAY up.  But have you seen them make any much-needed improvements to the mountain itself?  Nope.  None.  My gut tells me that this is because they are hemorrhaging money for eight months of the year.  The overhead for these hotels and the waterpark has got to be huge.


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## burski (Jan 15, 2016)

Great post above "River19" couldn't agree more.  The other thing the hotel does in my opinion, is secure Burke's future as on ongoing operating entity even more.  As soon as these clowns get bored and leave, there is a $30 Million (don't believe that $55 Mil number they have been feeding you...) asset that someone is going to pick up for pennies on the dollar.  After all the legal quagmire is run through, you still have one of the better mountains in new England, with one of the better resort hotels, two fairly new HSQ's, and 1/3 of a new snowmaking system.  We just have to wait for the circus to leave Town...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

burski said:


> As soon as these clowns get bored and leave, there is a $30 Million (don't believe that $55 Mil number they have been feeding you...)


I have contacts in the hotel business, and every one of them can't believe that the hotel should have cost $55 million.  EB-5 is funny that way.  There is definitely no incentive to spend money efficiently.


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## oldtimer (Jan 15, 2016)

I am in construction.  It did not cost 55 million.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> If someone isn't a passholder, I don't see them skiing Burke this weekend, why would anyone spend their money there vs. other places with more terrain open.
> 
> And while I get that Magic is a shit-show, it has always been a shit-show and Jr et al are lucky some of their passhodlers feel better about the sorry situation in Burke by saying "it could be worse....." (in no way am I picking on MEtoVT btw) what they are dealing with in Burke is also a blatant disregard of the core business.....who cares about a hotel on a mountain with shitty skiing and no terrain open?  Broken record.......almost 6000 posts worth.  I know, I know......I'm repetitive.....
> 
> SSDD until further notice I guess.....



The big difference is that Magic has incompetence; Burke has incompetence and management hostile to their customer base.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> We looked at condos back in 2008ish and thought about buying one, but given the older condos up there at the time and what people wanted for them vs. what you got (an aging small-ass condo that needed love) we decided to build instead.  At the time the Bear Path stuff was approaching a million dollar ask and the only way they were worth that was if the walls were stuffed with $600K in cash.
> 
> So glad we chose the route we did.
> 
> ...



Exactly


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 15, 2016)

BUT-  Burke has a MUCH better infrastructure on the mountain.  Yes, the snow-making pipes are old, but there is lots of new equipment at Burke:  Electric compressors, water pumps, 2 new HS quads, a decent array of fan guns and pole mounted HKDs on their primary routes off the top.  None of this can be said about Magic.  They would be happy if they had the Willoughby chair in place of the the red chair-  at least it is inspected.  Most of this is not due to the investments of the current management, but it is all there.




thetrailboss said:


> The big difference is that Magic has incompetence; Burke has incompetence and management hostile to their customer base.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> BUT-  Burke has a MUCH better infrastructure on the mountain.  Yes, the snow-making pipes are old, but there is lots of new equipment at Burke:  Electric compressors, water pumps, 2 new HS quads, a decent array of fan guns and pole mounted HKDs on their primary routes off the top.  None of this can be said about Magic.  They would be happy if they had the Willoughby chair in place of the the red chair-  at least it is inspected.  Most of this is not due to the investments of the current management, but it is all there.



Yes, that is true, and, as you have said, it is due to the previous ownership.  I was only comparing management and not infrastructure.


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## River19 (Jan 15, 2016)

The delta between $55M and the $30M(ish) estimate is an interesting story unto itself......depending on the veracity of that, it could make for a wonderful Digger article.

I think even with a $30M hotel, I think my earlier points about commitment from ownership are still very valid (not that anyone claimed they weren't).

If my gut is right and the Q-circus leaves town.....the suggested time frame seems to be within 18mos....and here is how we will know..........my reasoning is the snow making timeline.  They put in STFU token investment in the mountain this year (and people can argue who really footed the bill on that all they want).  The story we were all fed (someone keep me honest here) was that they contacted the company that did Sochi's system and got a soup to nuts snowmaking plan from that company.

Whether they said it directly or it was implied I believe the take-away was that the fan guns were the first "phase" if you will of implementing the full snowmaking plan.  The rest of the plan would be implemented in phases once all financial resources are freed up from the hotel build etc. My gut tells me the fan guns would comprise a small portion of the full plan investment.

If current ownership is still in place come the summer of 2016 and the "resort" is not on the market, then I believe the expectation would be for them to begin earnestly investing in "Phase II" of the snowmaking implementation.  Phase II should be robust from my perspective getting snow-guns and concurrent capacity well over the 100 gun mark.  Phase II cannot be a bullshit effort of digging a friggin' hole and calling it a second holding pond and buying one more pump.  To me going that cheap ass route is another STFU token improvement that won't meaningfully change shit as far as getting terrain open quickly and keeping it open in the face of warm ups etc.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

This was posted a ways back after the last passholders meeting...



> Here are some notes my buddy sent me about the pass holder meeting that just took place:
> 
> There were about 20 people in attendance. Stenger was present.
> 
> ...




I don't see much aspiration to get a lot more firepower going... hopefully the plan gets improved a bit more this summer.

As far as the results go, well... here we are almost a month later, and yep they got their summit to mid route open, and 2 mid to base routes open, but still, trying to get the second route off the top going.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

As an aside... I think this is a pretty neat idea... Maybe Killington could replace the "Stairway to Heaven" with an enclosed one someday.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

I also like the note from the December meeting that said that the hotel opening date would be announced on the following week.  

And we are still waiting...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I also like the note from the December meeting that said that the hotel opening date would be announced on the following week.
> 
> And we are still waiting...



Yep, we are. I guess I gave up on planning to trying it out this winter, so kind of wasn't paying close attention to any further announcements of the opening. Pretty much now, I'd like to check out the new day lodge in the middle of the building, but probably won't plan a lengthy trip to Burke that would make the trail side accommodations convenient.


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## burski (Jan 15, 2016)

I never saw those notes, the comment that the snowmaking system only has 400gpm capacity is an outright lie, unless they have gotten rid of pumps in the last several years.  The capacity of the system has been over 2000gpm for about a decade, and if there is an operator that knows what they are doing, the transfer pumps from the river can be used to make snow on the lower mountain,, increasing actual capacity to 4,000 gpm in certain operating scenarios.  So by telling everyone its only 400 gpm, they lie and when it comes back up to 2000 gpm, where it has historically been, they are hero's.    These guys have to go..


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## VTKilarney (Jan 15, 2016)

Something odd is happening with the hotel reservation system.  Prior to February 6th, you can only book a room-only rate.  From February 6th onward you can book a ski and stay package.

Either the person running their system is incompetent or this may be a clue as to when they plan to open.


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## the original trailboss (Jan 15, 2016)

burski said:


> I never saw those notes, the comment that the snowmaking system only has 400gpm capacity is an outright lie, unless they have gotten rid of pumps in the last several years.  The capacity of the system has been over 2000gpm for about a decade, and if there is an operator that knows what they are doing, the transfer pumps from the river can be used to make snow on the lower mountain,, increasing actual capacity to 4,000 gpm in certain operating scenarios.  So by telling everyone its only 400 gpm, they lie and when it comes back up to 2000 gpm, where it has historically been, they are hero's.    These guys have to go..




  Wow - veeery interesting ! And, yes, they do have to go. This is a big joq !


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 15, 2016)

burski said:


> I never saw those notes, the comment that the snowmaking system only has 400gpm capacity is an outright lie, unless they have gotten rid of pumps in the last several years.  The capacity of the system has been over 2000gpm for about a decade, and if there is an operator that knows what they are doing, the transfer pumps from the river can be used to make snow on the lower mountain,, increasing actual capacity to 4,000 gpm in certain operating scenarios.  So by telling everyone its only 400 gpm, they lie and when it comes back up to 2000 gpm, where it has historically been, they are hero's.    These guys have to go..



So, back to the water is no problem, and it's really all about the missing rental air compressors?


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## ss20 (Jan 15, 2016)

> Next year they anticipate being able to light up 70 snowmaking guns at one time. There are no committed-to plans beyond this. There is the goal of improving snowmaking, but it will depend on resort revenues.



Impressive...uke:


It's the "but it will depend on resort revenue" that really gets me.  They aren't going to make a cent this year and they know it.  There could be 3 feet of snow per week with bluebird 40 degree weekends and it wouldn't matter.  Done.  Fork is stuck into it.  Ski area fiscal season is over... Fat lady warmed up during Christmas break, tomorrow she sings on the lousiest MLK weekend in years.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 16, 2016)

We still have February break. By that time the hotel will be done and most trails should be open and the pent up demand may be through the roof.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> We still have February break. By that time the hotel will be done and most trails should be open and the pent up demand may be through the roof.



I think that pent up demand is skiing elsewhere I'm afraid.....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 16, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that pent up demand is skiing elsewhere I'm afraid.....



I was thinking that same exact line a couple hours ago when I read  FTNEK's post... and looked at the webcam.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2016)

You really can't blame people. This was entirely foreseeable in light of their lack of snowmaking.  


.


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## faQ (Jan 16, 2016)

Anybody see the FB video posted yesterday?  I used to think the iPhone videos were really bad but these edits may be even worse. "We love it here at Burke, everybody is so nice and everybody loves to ski". 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2016)

faQ said:


> Anybody see the FB video posted yesterday?  I used to think the iPhone videos were really bad but these edits may be even worse. "We love it here at Burke, everybody is so nice and everybody loves to ski".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Did you see Q holding a gun to that person's head as they were saying it?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2016)

I watched said video.  No doubt he made it because the music is terrible.  He also showed a guy playing to an empty Bear Den.  I preferred the old ones they made featuring local music and showing lots of happy folks instead of awkward looks and empty lounges set to Qtechno.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2016)

That video was awful!  


.


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## Mariewatson777 (Jan 16, 2016)

We had to cancel our reservation because the hotel isn't done yet.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 16, 2016)

Mariewatson777 said:


> We had to cancel our reservation because the hotel isn't done yet.



You are not alone.


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## faQ (Jan 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I watched said video.  No doubt he made it because the music is terrible.  He also showed a guy playing to an empty Bear Den.  I preferred the old ones they made featuring local music and showing lots of happy folks instead of awkward looks and empty lounges set to Qtechno.



This is really getting embarrassing. Too bad little-q doesn't  have access to say... a successful marketing team that could help out....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

faQ said:


> This is really getting embarrassing. Too bad little-q doesn't  have access to say... a successful marketing team that could help out....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



He thinks that he is better than any marketing team. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## faQ (Jan 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> He thinks that he is better than any marketing team.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Talk about clueless. And if you take a look the peeps working up there, everybody is NOT happy.  9/10 chair rides with strangers end up in a "new guy sure is f-ing things up".  It's a little depressing. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

faQ said:


> Talk about clueless. And if you take a look the peeps working up there, everybody is NOT happy.  9/10 chair rides with strangers end up in a "new guy sure is f-ing things up".  It's a little depressing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



He'd inform that they're all wrong...he's going to prove us all wrong...


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2016)

I skied Burke this afternoon and then went to the passholder meeting.

Holy cow was the passholder meeting epic.  But before I get to that, on a nice Sunday during MLK weekend the Mid-Burke was ski on.  I was absolutely shocked.  There were a decent amount of people down at Sherburne, but way fewer than I expected up top.  If it weren't for the racers it would have felt like a ghost town.

On to the meeting... This was Ary's attempt at running a meeting without Stenger looking over his shoulder.  It was a disaster.  Ary was accusing passholders of lying, was insulting customers, and was dodging answers left and right.  It was almost as if he wanted it to go as badly as possible.

Just a couple of substantive things:
1) They are going to cancel a new round of hotel reservations this week.  They STILL did not give an opening date for the hotel.  They blamed the delay on the state withholding the release of EB-5 funds.  Someone asked Ary how the passholders could provide support.  Ary said that they should contact their local legislator.  Somebody else asked who represented Burke in the state legislature.  Ary's answer: "I have no idea."

2) Ary says that they are down over 30,000 skier visits.  For an area that only gets 70,000 per year, I find this very hard to believe.  My guess is that they either (a) they are projecting to the end of the year; or (b) they had some absurd goal for this year based on the hotel being open.

3) They plan on building a couple more hotels, including one that will replace the Sherburne Lodge.  

4) Ary's snowmaking goal is to be able to cover a single top to bottom trail.  He says that he can only make snow on one third of the mountain at any given moment.  People asked him for specific answers about why they appear to make less snow now than on prior years.  Ary couldn't say why.  He accused the people of asking the question of lying about how much snow they used to make.  (Everyone conceded that it wasn't a lot, but that it was more than he makes now.)

In general, Ary was really patronizing and demeaning.  I left before it ended, so maybe things turned around.  By the time I left, it was downright uncomfortable.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I skied Burke this afternoon and then went to the passholder meeting.
> 
> Holy cow was the passholder meeting epic.  But before I get to that, on a nice Sunday during MLK weekend the Mid-Burke was ski on.  I was absolutely shocked.  There were a decent amount of people down at Sherburne, but way fewer than I expected up top.  If it weren't for the racers it would have felt like a ghost town.
> 
> ...



Again, we are all wrong and he is right.  He knows it all.  Pretty embarrassing that he does not know who his local legislators were....shows how much he cares about the local community.  

No way they are building anymore hotels anytime soon.  The current "product", from the lodge food to snowmaking is WAY subpar.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2016)

I saw a REALLY dangerous situation on the Dippers just above the shelter.  On the right hand side, there was some really rough terrain (swoops and large depressions) that was in bounds right at the edge of what they groomed with no poles keeping people away.  It was the kind of thing that if you hit it at speed you would have seriously injured yourself or worse.  And it wasn't very obvious until you were right up on it.


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2016)

VTK - Saw something on FB about that as well.

Pathetic turnout for a holiday weekend.........

Sounds like the passholder meeting was a shit show......Jr is an embarrassment.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

I am surprised that they let Ary run the meeting alone.  Sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

Just saw this on FB.  Some folks at the show, but for a primo holiday weekend this is a small crowd:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

And I saw that they charged for sledding last night (?)  I thought that in the past it was free?  

Someone also asked about "the sales department".  This was on the FB page yesterday:



> Open House today over at Bear Path Townhomes from 2-5pm. Stop in and see slopeside living at its best.


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised that they let Ary run the meeting alone.  Sounds like a recipe for disaster.



You mean Ary aka Jr. who wasn't supposed to even be involved in the running of the mountain?  Oh yeah....that was another load of shit they expected us to swallow.....


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm shocked that the Bear Path condos haven't sold out yet.  Truly shocked.  There must be tons of people that are willing to pay several hundred thousand dollars to ski one or two trails well into January.  Right????


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm shocked that the Bear Path condos haven't sold out yet.  Truly shocked.  There must be tons of people that are willing to pay several hundred thousand dollars to ski one or two trails well into January.  Right????



Unless it has changed, and it probably has, they were originally $1,000,050 each asking price.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

River19 said:


> You mean Ary aka Jr. who wasn't supposed to even be involved in the running of the mountain?  Oh yeah....that was another load of shit they expected us to swallow.....



Yeah, that was right.  His desk was all cleared out last May.  Guess not.


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## chuckstah (Jan 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Unless it has changed, and it probably has, they were originally $1,000,050 each asking price.



About half that will now get you aq 3 bedroom

http://farmandforest.com/listings/saved-search/351442?r=11-20


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, that was right.  His desk was all cleared out last May.  Guess not.



Yeah, someone needs to nail Stenger's feet to the floor and get a straight answer about that story. Q senior can't possibly be this stupid to let this crap go on forever. What's he going to do, wait until Jr's antics drive the few remaining customers away and bankrupt the entire operation?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> About half that will now get you aq 3 bedroom
> 
> http://farmandforest.com/listings/saved-search/351442?r=11-20



Exactly.  And there are a fair number of units for sale on that listing.


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## River19 (Jan 17, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, someone needs to nail Stenger's feet to the floor and get a straight answer about that story. Q senior can't possibly be this stupid to let this crap go on forever. What's he going to do, wait until Jr's antics drive the few remaining customers away and bankrupt the entire operation?



I think the "few remaining customers" are really just the folks that were duped into buying a season pass for this year....I don't see people lining up to buy anything new at this point.......how many day passes are they really selling at this point given the fact that damn near every mountain between Burke and Boston has a better product available.......an unopened new hotel isn't a product......good skiing is the product.

Regarding Jr..........Q Sr and Stenger lost any credibility they may have had originally in this area based on letting Jr. "run" the mountain this way for 2+ years at this point.......how can people, like ourselves respect two "leaders" of a business who allow the mountain to be run by a clearly inexperienced, unqualified, egocentric child?  We can't.  It's sad their incompetence has a direct impact on the financial positions (ie. real estate, rental income, etc.) of other independent citizens.  Not to mention the unhappy investors in the EB5 programs....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2016)

River19 said:


> I think the "few remaining customers" are really just the folks that were duped into buying a season pass for this year....I don't see people lining up to buy anything new at this point.......how many day passes are they really selling at this point given the fact that damn near every mountain between Burke and Boston has a better product available.......an unopened new hotel isn't a product......good skiing is the product.
> 
> Regarding Jr..........Q Sr and Stenger lost any credibility they may have had originally in this area based on letting Jr. "run" the mountain this way for 2+ years at this point.......how can people, like ourselves respect two "leaders" of a business who allow the mountain to be run by a clearly inexperienced, unqualified, egocentric child?  We can't.  It's sad their incompetence has a direct impact on the financial positions (ie. real estate, rental income, etc.) of other independent citizens.  Not to mention the unhappy investors in the EB5 programs....



"But, but Junior needed a job!"


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## the original trailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> I think the "few remaining customers" are really just the folks that were duped into buying a season pass for this year....I don't see people lining up to buy anything new at this point.......how many day passes are they really selling at this point given the fact that damn near every mountain between Burke and Boston has a better product available.......an unopened new hotel isn't a product......good skiing is the product.
> 
> Regarding Jr..........Q Sr and Stenger lost any credibility they may have had originally in this area based on letting Jr. "run" the mountain this way for 2+ years at this point.......how can people, like ourselves respect two "leaders" of a business who allow the mountain to be run by a clearly inexperienced, unqualified, egocentric child?  We can't.  It's sad their incompetence has a direct impact on the financial positions (ie. real estate, rental income, etc.) of other independent citizens.  Not to mention the unhappy investors in the EB5 programs....



After 40+ years of connections to Burke Mountain, including 27 consecutive season passes, I believe I am looking at my last one. This last few years, when viewed from any perspective, is almost too bizarre to have actually occurred. This could easily make the greatest "What Not To Do" study any MBA course could hope for (and they won't even have to make anything up !). 
  Ary clearly wants to go it alone so I am going to do what I can now to help him achieve that goal. So instead of telling people I meet about how great Burke Mountain is, I tell them about how great Burke Mountain was.....


----------



## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> After 40+ years of connections to Burke Mountain, including 27 consecutive season passes, I believe I am looking at my last one. This last few years, when viewed from any perspective, is almost too bizarre to have actually occurred. This could easily make the greatest "What Not To Do" study any MBA course could hope for (and they won't even have to make anything up !).
> Ary clearly wants to go it alone so I am going to do what I can now to help him achieve that goal. So instead of telling people I meet about how great Burke Mountain is, I tell them about how great Burke Mountain was.....



Sadly I don't think you are alone in this.  I had a little bit of hope last year when it felt like after the monster PR debacle Jr. caused had finally made the point to Sr and Stenger that Jr. was completely incapable of the job they gave him.  But as we have seen, it was a complete sham and the petulant child is still very much involved in the mountain and continuing to drive it to ruin.

When I drove around town over the holiday weekend, I didn't see much activity........looks like a portion of the condo owners are up but not much else for activity. Sad. I think the mountain is down two TDs with 4mins left in the 4th and they just turned the ball over on their own 20.......


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

After having a chance to sleep on things, the passholder meeting is no less surreal feeling than it was last night.  Aside from Ary's complete lack of decorum, what's really troubling is that Ary seemed to have very little knowledge of the mountain.  He answered "I don't know" several times when he should have had an answer at his fingertips.  

One other interesting thing: Ary was asked if passholders are going to bear the burden of the money being spent on snowmaking improvements.  The proper answer would have been to say that the goal is to increase skier traffic so that passholder rates can be kept competitive with the market.  But not Ary... His answer was that, yes, passholders will have to pay for these expenses.  No mention of any other revenue source whatsoever.  

It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer.  It looks like a couple of years of horrible snowmaking during holiday periods is biting Ary in the ass.  The captive audience is coming, but the weekenders who spend lots of money are definitely not.  

It wouldn't surprise me if we see an unusual amount of condos come up for sale this summer.  Under this management, the mountain is in a death spiral.  I just hope that whoever buys it next knows how to run a ski area.


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> After having a chance to sleep on things, the passholder meeting is no less surreal feeling than it was last night.  Aside from Ary's complete lack of decorum, what's really troubling is that Ary seemed to have very little knowledge of the mountain.  He answered "I don't know" several times when he should have had an answer at his fingertips.
> 
> One other interesting thing: Ary was asked if passholders are going to bear the burden of the money being spent on snowmaking improvements.  The proper answer would have been to say that the goal is to increase skier traffic so that passholder rates can be kept competitive with the market.  But not Ary... His answer was that, yes, passholders will have to pay for these expenses.  No mention of any other revenue source whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Again, these clowns knew only a couple things, how to cut operating expenses (regardless of the impact to the business) and how to build a building with someone else's money.  That appears to be it.

Honestly VTK, passholders should be deeply insulted to show up at a passholder meeting and have that asshat be the ONE person there as the spokesperson and have zero real answers.  It also sounds like the answers he did have were wrong.

As a busniess owner, you invest in the business and infratructure required to produce a quality product, heck a passable product would be a vast improvement.  A restaurant owner doesn't tell his customers "if you want better food, clean tables and a clean restaurant you are going to have to spend more money here so I can get better food, hire more staff to clean etc."........the owner makes the investment in the product whereby they can then justify pricing commensurate with the market of similar products in their location.  

I would argue based upon all the evidence that Burke's product is not currently up to par with their current pricing.  Increasing the passholder's cost to potentially make modest improvements to the product is laughable.  It isn't worth the price they pay today and Jr. wants passholders to pay for the work to possibly provide value equal to what they were being charged a few years back.

good to hear most of their competitiors had a pretty good weekend even with the same weather challenges early in the season.  Sounds like Wildcat etc. all had good conditions going.  And paying customers.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> After 40+ years of connections to Burke Mountain, including 27 consecutive season passes, I believe I am looking at my last one. This last few years, when viewed from any perspective, is almost too bizarre to have actually occurred. This could easily make the greatest "What Not To Do" study any MBA course could hope for (and they won't even have to make anything up !).
> Ary clearly wants to go it alone so I am going to do what I can now to help him achieve that goal. So instead of telling people I meet about how great Burke Mountain is, I tell them about how great Burke Mountain was.....



If people want change at Burke, this is the only way it happens.  Vote with your wallet and take your business elsewhere.  

This is what I and numerous pass holders did at Wildcat after the fiasco a couple years back.  They ended up investing even more in snowmaking than originally planned.  People saw the difference, came back and now sing the praises.

I hope to read a similar success story at Burke, but as long as people continue to give them money, what is their incentive to change?  Less negative posts on Facebook and message boards?  As far as I can tell, that only galvanizes Ary further.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

Unfortunately, I am locked in for next year.  I bought a bunch of gift cards when they offered their cyber-Monday special (buy a $50 card get $10 free) - enough to purchase season passes for my family.  Trust me when I say that I am regretting that decision.  I won't be doing it again next year.

I think that we'll be going with either Bretton Woods or Cannon.  If Cannon can get their snowmaking act together it would be my preference.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

9:15 AM on a holiday weekend and the only lift serving the main mountain is ski-on.  




.


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

And numerous empty chairs going up......probably the best conditions too.....snowing, 3" of fresh powder last night etc.

Looks like a reasonable stream of the captive audience are getting their morning runs in before they all pile up on Rt 93......lol

I left yesterday to be back here in the office this morning.....


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2016)

I was up there yesterday morning with my kids on the J-bar. I had no desire to buy a full lift ticket with barely two "decent" trails coming off the summit. Ary Jr got $27 out of me.
Honestly, the passholder meeting report doesn't surprise me. I wonder if Stenger decided he was sick of _trying_ to keep Q Jr's head above water. 
The whole thing =


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Unfortunately, I am locked in for next year.  I bought a bunch of gift cards when they offered their cyber-Monday special (buy a $50 card get $10 free) - enough to purchase season passes for my family.  Trust me when I say that I am regretting that decision.  I won't be doing it again next year.
> 
> I think that we'll be going with either Bretton Woods or Cannon.  If Cannon can get their snowmaking act together it would be my preference.



So you're locked in for 16-17 ??  Ughhh!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Unfortunately, I am locked in for next year.  I bought a bunch of gift cards when they offered their cyber-Monday special (buy a $50 card get $10 free) - enough to purchase season passes for my family.  Trust me when I say that I am regretting that decision.  I won't be doing it again next year.
> 
> I think that we'll be going with either Bretton Woods or Cannon.  If Cannon can get their snowmaking act together it would be my preference.





via Imgflip Meme Maker


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> After 40+ years of connections to Burke Mountain, including 27 consecutive season passes, I believe I am looking at my last one. This last few years, when viewed from any perspective, is almost too bizarre to have actually occurred. This could easily make the greatest "What Not To Do" study any MBA course could hope for (and they won't even have to make anything up !).
> Ary clearly wants to go it alone so I am going to do what I can now to help him achieve that goal. So instead of telling people I meet about how great Burke Mountain is, I tell them about how great Burke Mountain was.....



I don't know anyone else who is as passionate as TOTB is regarding Burke.  His passion has rubbed off onto me....enough that I follow it and post on it from two timezones away.  I know how hard it is for TOTB to admit that he will not be there next year.  And as he has said to me, what has Q gained by being a complete asshat?  Nothing.


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## yeggous (Jan 18, 2016)

You can always try to sell off those gift cards to unsuspecting suckers.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mriceyman (Jan 18, 2016)

yeggous said:


> You can always try to sell off those gift cards to unsuspecting suckers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Judging by the webcam it doesnt look like the sucker pool is too big


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

yeggous said:


> You can always try to sell off those gift cards to unsuspecting suckers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



People are trying to dump vouchers on eBay.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> People are trying to dump vouchers on eBay.



The last one sold for $20.  That ought to tell you something.

I think it's safe to say that MLK weekend was pretty much a disaster for Q Burke.  You know it's bad when the Sherburne chair is much busier than the Mid-Burke.  I spoke with several families that took one run up top (usually on Deer Run) and never went back up again.  Most of the people skiing the lower mountain were not doing so because it was their first choice.

They need to improve snowmaking big time before things will change.  And, unfortunately, they have probably alienated a lot of people from returning even if they get their snowmaking act together.  Screwing people over by taking hotel reservations for dates you know will not be available adds to the problem.

TOTB said it well... you could teach a college course on how NOT to run a company with Q Burke as an example.


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

Based on what I have seen on the webcam.....it has been ski down and ski on the lift all morning on a key "Holiday" weekend where snow has been falling for close to 12 hours or more.......there are also plenty of empty chairs going up.......friggin' sad.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 18, 2016)

Guess I don't have as many years going to Burke as TOTB, only since '84-'85 for me... That many years consecutive seasons passes is impressive. If I had invested that much of my life there, pretty sure I'd be writing a very, very long letter to Stenger and Sr. You know how it goes, 1 guy tells 25 people bad reviews, they each tell 25, and so on and so forth... It's really going to start getting ugly. So many people have been alienated now, there may be no way to recover at all without an ownership change again.

It's really a shame that BMA couldn't just of owned and managed the mountain. Make it a teaching mountain for all facets of the industry.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

They just posted another cell phone video on Facebook. It shows a nearly empty Sherburne base on a peak holiday weekend.  It looks like people have just given up and gone home.


.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They just posted another cell phone video on Facebook. It shows a nearly empty Sherburne base on a peak holiday weekend.  It looks like people have just given up and gone home.
> 
> 
> .



Well, at least you don't have to worry about being run over by the hordes today, if you're out teaching some little ones. Almost like having your own private mountain.


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## mbedle (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The last one sold for $20.  That ought to tell you something.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that MLK weekend was pretty much a disaster for Q Burke.  You know it's bad when the Sherburne chair is much busier than the Mid-Burke.  I spoke with several families that took one run up top (usually on Deer Run) and never went back up again.  Most of the people skiing the lower mountain were not doing so because it was their first choice.
> 
> ...



Was the skiing off the summit that bad? Seems odd they would hang out on the lower intermediate and beginner terrain on the lower mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Guess I don't have as many years going to Burke as TOTB, only since '84-'85 for me... That many years consecutive seasons passes is impressive. If I had invested that much of my life there, pretty sure I'd be writing a very, very long letter to Stenger and Sr. You know how it goes, 1 guy tells 25 people bad reviews, they each tell 25, and so on and so forth... It's really going to start getting ugly. So many people have been alienated now, there may be no way to recover at all without an ownership change again.
> 
> It's really a shame that BMA couldn't just of owned and managed the mountain. Make it a teaching mountain for all facets of the industry.



I can tell you that TOTB has personally conveyed his feelings, diplomatically, to Ary and Bill.  He can fill you in on the response (or non-response) if he wishes.  He also was a part of the infamous "focus group" a few years back that informed them as to what Burke is and what it means.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Was the skiing off the summit that bad? Seems odd they would hang out on the lower intermediate and beginner terrain on the lower mountain.


The complaint I kept hearing is that it was bad for lower end intermediates.  In other words, a LOT of children.  And for many intermediates it just wasn't any fun.

I skied up top, and I can understand why a lot of families thought that it was bad.  Deer Run was horrible (at least looking from the chair lift).  Carriage Road was pretty slick, and they way it empties onto Deer Run is dangerous.  The bottom half of the Dippers wasn't that bad - but you had to go through a lot of poor stuff to get there.

I had some fun with it, but I can see how it was not a good fit for a lot of people.  It's also a reflection of Burke's Achilles heel - that there is not a good trail to transition from the lower mountain to the upper mountain.

I've been saying for a long time that Deer Run is one of the most dangerous trails in the Northeast.  IMHO sections of it should be closed for good.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

At this point, the real question in my mind is if Cannon or Bretton Woods will accept the Qrefugees next season.


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

Thank God they posted a video of the lower mountain.....if I were their marketing dept I would drop the webcam soon as well....seeing as how I had that up most of the morning in the background and right now it is long line of empty chairs.....as the condo captives are eating lunch, packing up and clogging the highway shortly.

If/when the area gets a good natural dumping, the captives will come out of their condos and ski, but we know that is because as captives they have sunk $ into passes already and want to get "something" for their money.  It will look like people are flocking to the mountain depending on what angle they shoot their phone videos etc. but at the end of the day, to me, day passes are the true barometer of this season.....season passes were purchased based on a load of shit shoveled by Stenger et al.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I can tell you that TOTB has personally conveyed his feelings, diplomatically, to Ary and Bill.  He can fill you in on the response (or non-response) if he wishes.  He also was a part of the infamous "focus group" a few years back that informed them as to what Burke is and what it means.


I was there too and I wonder, by next year, how many of the people in that focus group are still buying a season pass.


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## mbedle (Jan 18, 2016)

Was just looking online and it doesn't seem like a good idea to have Carriage road dumping at 90 degrees onto Dear Run with Dear Run being so small. Looks like a good place for a couple of crashes.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

And VTK reported that Q said that they are "30,000 skier visits down" from an average season.  To put that in perspective, if they normally do, say, 75,000 skier days a season that normally runs Early-December through Mid-April, they have lost at least 20% of their season off the bat (so that is 15,000 right there) and so far in the first three weeks have lost another 15,000.  That leaves them pretty damn low.  Absurdly low.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Was just looking online and it doesn't seem like a good idea to have Carriage road dumping at 90 degrees onto Dear Run with Dear Run being so small. Looks like a good place for a couple of crashes.



That's a really dangerous spot.  There is a good pitch on the section of Carriage Road that dumps onto Deer Run.  And you can't see the skiers approaching on Deer Run. 

It's also dangerous where it crosses the Dippers.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's a really dangerous spot.  There is a good pitch on the section of Carriage Road that dumps onto Deer Run.  And you can't see the skiers approaching on Deer Run.
> 
> It's also dangerous where it crosses the Dippers.



If you go back to the archives, you see that Northern Star intended to cut a new portion of Carriage Road that continued down the fall line at that point and would run parallel to the Dippers with snowmaking.  It would have tied into Little Dipper.  As a result, Toll Road was effectively closed for a season or two because the Dippers Extension really made too many intersections. But by popular local demand it is back.  I think it is fine as long as folks know to look before crossing the downhill trails.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> If you go back to the archives, you see that Northern Star intended to cut a new portion of Carriage Road that continued down the fall line at that point and would run parallel to the Dippers with snowmaking.  It would have tied into Little Dipper.  As a result, Toll Road was effectively closed for a season or two because the Dippers Extension really made too many intersections. But by popular local demand it is back.  I think it is fine as long as folks know to look before crossing the downhill trails.


While I generally agree, there are a couple of issues that I see:
1) There are tons of beginners on Deer Run and they aren't very conscientious about rules of safety.
2) The line of sight between Carriage Road and Deer Run is REALLY bad.  You can't see people on the other trail until the last second.
3) People come FLYING down the Dippers.  It's a trail that really makes you want to carry speed.  I've seen a couple close calls based on speed alone.  And again, I don't blame people for wanting to carry speed on the Dippers.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2016)

This all makes me wonder what kind of financial losses Q can sustain.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> This all makes me wonder what kind of financial losses Q can sustain.



We're going to find out here.  I imagine that it is eating into their revenue stream that they get from Jay.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> While I generally agree, there are a couple of issues that I see:
> 1) There are tons of beginners on Deer Run and they aren't very conscientious about rules of safety.
> 2) The line of sight between Carriage Road and Deer Run is REALLY bad.  You can't see people on the other trail until the last second.
> 3) People come FLYING down the Dippers.  It's a trail that really makes you want to carry speed.  I've seen a couple close calls based on speed alone.  And again, I don't blame people for wanting to carry speed on the Dippers.



Agree as to all.  IIRC Carriage Road used to not be as groomed as it is now.  And when it got snowmaking the intent was to close off Deer Run/Toll Road completely.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree as to all.  IIRC Carriage Road used to not be as groomed as it is now.  And when it got snowmaking the intent was to close off Deer Run/Toll Road completely.


Now that makes sense.  If Carriage Road was allowed to bump up it wouldn't be an issue.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> This all makes me wonder what kind of financial losses Q can sustain.


IMHO it's quite simple.  So long as EB-5 administrative fees (for their statewide scheme) outpace operational losses, they will stay in the game.  

I have to figure that we are getting dangerously close to the tipping point.  AnC Bio may be the canary in the coal mine.  Remember the groundbreaking back in May?  You'd think that construction would have started in earnest, but I don't believe that it has.  And there is no permitting action at all for the huge hole in downtown Newport.  And let's not forget that the SEC might ruin the party.

I will be watching very closely this summer to see how much they actually wind up spending on snowmaking improvements.  It wouldn't surprise me if they start circling the wagons even tighter.  They will blame it on the hotel not opening on time, and promise to make the improvements next year.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> IMHO it's quite simple.  So long as EB-5 administrative fees (for their statewide scheme) outpace operational losses, they will stay in the game.
> 
> I have to figure that we are getting dangerously close to the tipping point.  AnC Bio may be the canary in the coal mine.  Remember the groundbreaking back in May?  You'd think that construction would have started in earnest, but I don't believe that it has.  And there is no permitting action at all for the huge hole in downtown Newport.  And let's not forget that the SEC might ruin the party.
> 
> I will be watching very closely this summer to see how much they actually wind up spending on snowmaking improvements.  It wouldn't surprise me if they start circling the wagons even tighter.  They will blame it on the hotel not opening on time, and promise to make the improvements next year.



The big thing will be if Ary REALLY leaves this summer or not.  I don't care about their "improvements".  Those don't matter if you have someone who has no idea how to run the place and does not want to listen to anyone who does.


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The big thing will be if Ary REALLY leaves this summer or not.  I don't care about their "improvements".  Those don't matter if you have someone who has no idea how to run the place and does not want to listen to anyone who does.



I think we would all comfortably say Jr. finally leaving would be the largest improvement they possibly could make.  And they supposedly did last year.....but that was a pile of steaming crap now wasn't it?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2016)

Anyone emailed Bill Stenger about his broken promise regarding Ary?


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## River19 (Jan 18, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone emailed Bill Stenger about his broken promise regarding Ary?



Good question/thought/idea.

Does anyone else find it really insulting when they say something to appease the crowd in front of them then plow right on through and don't deliver on anything?

No accountability.  It is always someone else's fault........the State, the Weather, the river level, passholders are lying, etc.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> IMHO it's quite simple.*  So long as EB-5 administrative fees (for their statewide scheme) outpace operational losses, they will stay in the game.  *



Before recent times, the above would be the obvious answer.  

The problem is, supposedly there is now some measure of financial control being imposed (finally) by State of Vermont so that the money cannot be used as a slush fund larger than the GDP of a 3rd-world nation, and with no accounting to boot, as was the previous case.

Of course, this relies on State of Vermont actually doing what they claim to be doing, of which I'm a cynic.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone emailed Bill Stenger about his broken promise regarding Ary?



I don't think that it is Bill's call at all.  It is Daddy Q calling the shots with Burke.  Bill is only trotted out to save face.  Over the years I think he has done what he can to stay out of Burke if he can because he is powerless.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2016)

The booking engine is now only accepting hotel reservations starting February 5th.  Just yesterday it was taking reservations starting January 23rd.


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## yeggous (Jan 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that it is Bill's call at all.  It is Daddy Q calling the shots with Burke.  Bill is only trotted out to save face.  Over the years I think he has done what he can to stay out of Burke if he can because he is powerless.



+1


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that it is Bill's call at all.  It is Daddy Q calling the shots with Burke.  Bill is only trotted out to save face.  Over the years I think he has done what he can to stay out of Burke if he can because he is powerless.



Agree, I don't think he has any power at Burke whatsoever.


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## folledeski (Jan 19, 2016)

Longtime lurker here.  I was a Burke passholder for many years and am again this year after a hiatus.  I neither own property in the area nor have any affiliation with BMA, so don't have any "skin" in the game, so to speak.  Just someone who loves Burke for its terrain and character and have been witness to the various fits and starts over the past 15 years or so.

I agree with VTK's assessment of the passholder meeting the other day.  Overall, it was laughable.  However, it is worth noting that a few folks who identified themselves as longtime (far, far longer than me) Burke supporters voiced their support and appreciation for the current efforts and plan.  This may have been after VTK left.  Were these folks making a political "public display" of their support?  Hard to say.

Ary failed to directly answer any but the most basic yes/no questions.  For example, will the general public continue to be able to park at mid-Burke after the hotel opens?  Answer:  Yes.  All other responses alternated between attacking the messenger, or deflecting and playing the blame game, pointing fingers anywhere and everywhere.

After Ary told the audience that there was nothing they could do to "help", a few other constructive suggestions were offered, and one attendee pointed out to Ary that several ways for supporters to "help" had just been identified, encouraging him to reach out for help.  He essentially ignored the suggestion and moved on.

I truly feel for those who did or do work for him.  I've worked for many of these types before, and only those who cannot - or choose not to - think for themselves will stick around.  End result - he makes all the decisions.  And when they are bad ones, the blame game starts, and we all get to suffer the results.  Sad and extremely frustrating.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

folledeski said:


> Longtime lurker here.  I was a Burke passholder for many years and am again this year after a hiatus.  I neither own property in the area nor have any affiliation with BMA, so don't have any "skin" in the game, so to speak.  Just someone who loves Burke for its terrain and character and have been witness to the various fits and starts over the past 15 years or so.
> 
> I agree with VTK's assessment of the passholder meeting the other day.  Overall, it was laughable.  However, it is worth noting that a few folks who identified themselves as longtime (far, far longer than me) Burke supporters voiced their support and appreciation for the current efforts and plan.  This may have been after VTK left.  Were these folks making a political "public display" of their support?  Hard to say.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the Boards and thanks for the comments.  The community does care about the mountain.  This shows that when you decide to turn your back to them you'd better have the resources to compensate.  Here he does not.  It's too bad.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2016)

Looks like a wind hold


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

River19 said:


> Looks like a wind hold



Too bad we have a manager who won't use the (usually) windproof Willoughby Quad.


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## fbrissette (Jan 19, 2016)

You got to wonder.  Ariel Quiros is certainly not an idiot and not the type of person who would like to waste money.  May be he can't think straight because his son is involved, or it may be that he's playing a long-game that we cant figure out.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You got to wonder.  Ariel Quiros is certainly not an idiot and not the type of person who would like to waste money.  May be he can't think straight because his son is involved, or it may be that he's playing a long-game that we cant figure out.



I think it is the fact that it is his son.  Logic would have said you give the resort to Bill and Company to manage and leave them alone, just like he has done with Jay.


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## River19 (Jan 19, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You got to wonder.  Ariel Quiros is certainly not an idiot and not the type of person who would like to waste money.  May be he can't think straight because his son is involved, or it may be that he's playing a long-game that we cant figure out.



Or maybe we did figure out the game, and the SEC is figuring out a portion that interests them and things will get interesting over the next 12 mos.....I think someone just has to follow the money and connect some dots.....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Too bad we have a manager who won't use the (usually) windproof Willoughby Quad.



It is windy enough today that I'm sure even the Willoughby chair would be on hold.


----------



## mbedle (Jan 19, 2016)

Wow - sugarbush closed all their lift today. Must be bad out up there.


----------



## Jully (Jan 19, 2016)

Wildcat too


----------



## zeke (Jan 19, 2016)

River19 said:


> Or maybe we did figure out the game, and the SEC is figuring out a portion that interests them and things will get interesting over the next 12 mos.....I think someone just has to follow the money and connect some dots.....



exactly-i seems the "long-game" is to make as much $ off of EB-5 fees and the selling of mountain land back to the investor projects at a massive markup for as long as the government will let them.

and i don't believe bill and co ever wanted, or cared to, run Burke. they have their own mountain (and water park and 3 hotels) to run. and with most of stenger's time being spent raising and collecting and apologizing for lying about the duo's EB-5 fund raising, he's pretty busy even without Jay, imho.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

Good point.  I wonder how much the hotel investors paid for the land underneath the hotel.  I'm thinking that there was just a little bit of a markup.


----------



## mbedle (Jan 19, 2016)

I think the land is leased to the LP.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 19, 2016)

zeke said:


> exactly-i seems the "long-game" is to make as much $ off of EB-5 fees and the selling of mountain land back to the investor projects at a massive markup for as long as the government will let them.



Agreed.   In the mean time they run the mountain as to minimize operating costs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

zeke said:


> exactly-i seems the "long-game" is to make as much $ off of EB-5 fees and the selling of mountain land back to the investor projects at a massive markup for as long as the government will let them.
> 
> and i don't believe bill and co ever wanted, or cared to, run Burke. they have their own mountain (and water park and 3 hotels) to run. and with most of stenger's time being spent raising and collecting and apologizing for lying about the duo's EB-5 fund raising, he's pretty busy even without Jay, imho.



Yeah, but I don't think that Bill even was supposed to be involved with Burke.  From what folks have said it sounds like this was only a Q venture.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.   In the mean time they run the mountain as to minimize operating costs.


That's why I will be watching closely to see what they invest in snowmaking this summer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's why I will be watching closely to see what they invest in snowmaking this summer.



I think you've got an answer:  $0.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2016)

Hey, Stenger said at the last passholders meeting,  they'd be investing 3x the dollars that they spent this summer on snowmaking. We'll know in a few months if he was lying or not.


----------



## River19 (Jan 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think you've got an answer:  $0.



It is clear they have been aligning the story to avoid additional investment in the snow making piece.

They flat out told everyone snowmaking equipment is dependent on "resort revenue" which due to their shenanigans and piss poor management we know consist of $0 in hotel revenue and probably 90% passholder revenue at this point as I can't imagine many people have been fleeced out of day passes and the 'Rack is probably barely breaking even.

So no resort revenue, no investment in snow making.  Because to believe in the "if you build it they will come" philosophy of investing in the snow product to drive hotel visits and lift tickets that would suggest they need to invest some of their own Qmoney and we that Qwon't Qhapppen.....and they will tell you to suQ it.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Hey, Stenger said at the last passholders meeting,  they'd be investing 3x the dollars that they spent this summer on snowmaking. We'll know in a few months if he was lying or not.



3 x $0 = $0


----------



## zeke (Jan 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Hey, Stenger said at the last passholders meeting,  they'd be investing 3x the dollars that they spent this summer on snowmaking. We'll know in a few months if he was lying or not.



Yeah-$0


----------



## doublediamond (Jan 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Hey, Stenger said at the last passholders meeting,  they'd be investing 3x the dollars that they spent this summer on snowmaking. We'll know in a few months if he was lying or not.



Wasn't all the money this year from BMA?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Wasn't all the money this year from BMA?



Folks suspect that....

So 3 x someone else's money = $0 Q dollars spent 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Hey, Stenger said at the last passholders meeting,  they'd be investing 3x the dollars that they spent this summer on snowmaking. We'll know in a few months if he was lying or not.


Interesting.  At the last passholder meeting Quiros said that they would be spending double the amount that was spent last summer.  He said this more than once.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting.  At the last passholder meeting Quiros said that they would be spending double the amount that was spent last summer.  He said this more than once.



Yes, 2x$0=3x$0. We have already solved this problem.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Yes, 2x$0=3x$0. We have already solved this problem.


Good point.  I guess it doesn't matter what he says.  

In all seriousness, I went back and looked at the notes from the December meeting.  Quiros indeed said that they would be spending three times as much.  And now in January he says that it will be two times as much.

This is not at all good.


----------



## ironhippy (Jan 19, 2016)

If the Q's real goal is just the management fees, the attitude could be to just let the resort die and sell it for whatever. As long as the loss on the resort is significantly less than the management fees, why care what happens?

However, I'm not sure why you'd bother with all the qbranding unless it is tied into the EB5 marketing somehow.

I hope that is not the case though.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point.  I guess it doesn't matter what he says.
> 
> In all seriousness, I went back and looked at the notes from the December meeting.  Quiros indeed said that they would be spending three times as much.  And now in January he says that it will be two times as much.
> 
> This is not at all good.



It's a simple equation, really:

Q = BS




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----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

I have heard rumors from multiple sources that the hotel will not open until May.  One of the sources has been VERY reliable in the past.  I've been sitting on this for a couple of weeks.  But now that I am hearing it from multiple sources I figured I would post it.

Who knows if it's true.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I have heard rumors from multiple sources that the hotel will not open until May.  One of the sources has been VERY reliable in the past.  I've been sitting on this for a couple of weeks.  But now that I am hearing it from multiple sources I figured I would post it.
> 
> Who knows if it's true.



How is this even possible? This goes well beyond Epic Fail.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

yeggous said:


> How is this even possible? This goes well beyond Epic Fail.


Well, at the passholder meeting it was stated that they would need at least two weeks to open once the state releases the money that they need to finish the project.  And the state has not yet released the money.

Realistically, two weeks probably means three or four.  From what I've heard, they have decided that if they can't open by President's Day, there is no point in opening until the summer.  And the rumor going around is that they already know that they aren't going to open by President's Day.

Again... these are just rumors at this stage.

But if they are true, it boggles my mind that they are still taking hotel reservations.  Maybe they are doing so just to keep up appearances with potential EB-5 investors and they don't care one bit if actual customers are screwed over.  That wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I have heard rumors from multiple sources that the hotel will not open until May.  One of the sources has been VERY reliable in the past.  I've been sitting on this for a couple of weeks.  But now that I am hearing it from multiple sources I figured I would post it.
> 
> Who knows if it's true.



So they have a $55 million asset sitting idle. Brilliant.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So they have a $55 million asset sitting idle. Brilliant.


Technically a $20 million asset that they spent $55 million on.  :roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Technically a $20 million asset that they spent $55 million on.  :roll:



Right now a $0 asset that they have nobody to operate and have sunk $55 million of other people's money into. Awesome.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 19, 2016)

And I am sure that the employees are just sitting by idly waiting for it to open.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> it's a simple equation, really:
> 
> Q = bs




q = bs³

fify  ;-)


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 19, 2016)

So... when's the tax bill due?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> So... when's the tax bill due?



I think that they're still fighting that.


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## River19 (Jan 20, 2016)

I bet they don't open, then claim that an unopened hotel shouldn't be taxed.........lol

Of course when I build a barn etc. I expect to pay additional taxes as soon as the listers see it is there.

If they don't open until May........beyond epic fail.  I thought last week's news was "beds are arriving in anticipation of our early February opening"........what changed?

Condos must be selling like hot cakes........joking aside, I feel slightly bad for our overly optimistic real estate marketing friend.  This has to be frustrating as hell for him as well.


----------



## oldtimer (Jan 20, 2016)

As many know, I am not of fan of jr and am skeptical of anything he says.  But as I look at their current activities near the hotel, I expect a soft opening pretty soon-  like in the next 2 weeks.

-- finishing the magic carpet and blowing snow down the pitch to the hotel

-- public open viewing times last weekend

-- some long time low level retail employees talking about shifting into that building 

-- the pools are full

-- rental trucks moving in soft goods and furnishings over the last couple of weeks

Not sure why any of this would be happening if they had made a decision on May.

That said, May makes a ton of sense to me from a business stand point, but they have investors with expectations, public perception, and may other factors that go into the call.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2016)

Very good point on the indications that they are preparing to open.  It would not surprise me at all if they open sooner than later.

The only wrinkle is that they have said that they need the state to release funds in order to open.  And that has not happened yet.  So they at least have to get through that hurdle.  But the happenings on-site may indicate that they believe they will get over that hurdle soon.

The only thing that can be said with any certainty is that nobody knows when they will open.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Very good point on the indications that they are preparing to open.  It would not surprise me at all if they open sooner than later.
> 
> The only wrinkle is that they have said that they need the state to release funds in order to open.  And that has not happened yet.  So they at least have to get through that hurdle.  But the happenings on-site may indicate that they believe they will get over that hurdle soon.
> 
> The only thing that can be said with any certainty is that nobody knows when they will open.



Filling the pools is the best sign yet. I can't imagine they would do that if they were not serious.


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----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 20, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Filling the pools is the best sign yet. I can't imagine they would do that if they were not serious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Extra water for snow making. Just in case the river starts to run too low?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The only thing that can be said with any certainty is that nobody knows when they will open.





via Imgflip Meme Maker


----------



## wtcobb (Jan 20, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Filling the pools is the best sign yet. I can't imagine they would do that if they were not serious.



Need some place to drown passholders' sorrows.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 20, 2016)

Just watch.  The hotel will sit idle for too long and then they will have a mold problem.  But the pool will be nice!


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## trackbiker (Jan 21, 2016)

Planning to head to Burke next Saturday using the MyChamplainValley Card. They list 28 trails open including East Bowl and Powderhorn. Are these trails and others that don't receive snowmaking really covered or should I bring rock skis? There doesn't look to be any significant snowfall between now and then.


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## oldtimer (Jan 21, 2016)

ROCK SKIS and ptex-  it is thin out there





trackbiker said:


> Planning to head to Burke next Saturday using the MyChamplainValley Card. They list 28 trails open including East Bowl and Powderhorn. Are these trails and others that don't receive snowmaking really covered or should I bring rock skis? There doesn't look to be any significant snowfall between now and then.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 21, 2016)

Rock skis, for sure.


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## River19 (Jan 22, 2016)

Per their FB reply to a comment......they are still anticipating an early February opening.

Which begs the question, if a hotel opens without an announcement, did it really open?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 22, 2016)

I wonder if the hotel and the services (restaurant, retail shop, day lodge area) on the first floor might open separately? I've also heard the first weekend in February (at least for the retail part).


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2016)

Nobody can trust what they state for an opening date at this point.  


.


----------



## River19 (Jan 22, 2016)

and if you don't tell anybody at least a couple weeks out, who the ferk is going to book it?  Who the ferk will know you are open?  The locals who live there and have no need for a hotel?

I smell more dumb here......but this whole thing has reeked of dumb for a long time.......


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## thetrailboss (Jan 22, 2016)

River19 said:


> Per their FB reply to a comment......they are still anticipating an early February opening.
> 
> Which begs the question, if a hotel opens without an announcement, did it really open?



They went from INSISTENCE that this WOULD open by December 11th to now, "well, we will tell you later."  Something is wrong here.  Really wrong.


----------



## wtcobb (Jan 23, 2016)

Anyone else here today frozen through?

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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2016)

I'm going Sunday and Monday so I'm sitting today out.  


.


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## SLoMo (Jan 23, 2016)

Today: Freezing. Thin cover and icy slopes (unless you're on kiddy stuff). Retail store closed on busiest day of the week. Employees look miserable and don't know how to use their cash registers. Ticket scanners chatting up their friends...you go ahead in singles line cause you waited 5 mins to be scanned and they ignore you...only to get yelled at by liftie for bypassing scanner. Ridiculous. But hey, minimal people and lots of laps. I'll take it! 

***sidenote: that stupid magic carpet thing is biggest waste of money ever.


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## Edd (Jan 23, 2016)

Retail store closed on a Saturday. Wow. Can we get an independent confirmation on that because it blows my mind.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2016)

Sounds like a typical Burke Saturday when there isn't enough natural snowfall.  They don't have enough snow made on the main mountain to spread people out. Carriage Road especially can't handle the traffic.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> Today: Freezing. Thin cover and icy slopes (unless you're on kiddy stuff). Retail store closed on busiest day of the week. Employees look miserable and don't know how to use their cash registers. Ticket scanners chatting up their friends...you go ahead in singles line cause you waited 5 mins to be scanned and they ignore you...only to get yelled at by liftie for bypassing scanner. Ridiculous. But hey, minimal people and lots of laps. I'll take it!
> 
> ***sidenote: that stupid magic carpet thing is biggest waste of money ever.



That's the Q experience!


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## SLoMo (Jan 23, 2016)

Edd said:


> Retail store closed on a Saturday. Wow. Can we get an independent confirmation on that because it blows my mind.



Just left, big sign out front, closed. Per Qburke FB, it had sprinkler system blow beginning of the week damaging merch. Some notification would have been nice...lot of cold unhappy kids who's parents planned on buying them stuff there. That and the marketing blog of their "Siobhan" who won't ski again (really, Burke?!), were the rumblings in the lodge all day.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> Just left, big sign out front, closed. Per Qburke FB, it had sprinkler system blow beginning of the week damaging merch. Some notification would have been nice...lot of cold unhappy kids who's parents planned on buying them stuff there. That and the marketing blog of their "Siobhan" who won't ski again (really, Burke?!), were the rumblings in the lodge all day.



What did she say?


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## River19 (Jan 23, 2016)

If I turn my ear towards the mountain I swear I hear the fat lady warming up.......

Spent a couple hours out on the fat bike with the wife.....had a blast......10 degrees.....still some sweat, makes the beer even better.

Q sounds like a friggin mess.........anyone see that douche nozzle Jr around?


----------



## wtcobb (Jan 23, 2016)

Q Jr was on site this morning.

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## faQ (Jan 23, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> ... "Siobhan" who won't ski again (really, Burke?!), were the rumblings in the lodge all day.



What's that now?


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## SLoMo (Jan 23, 2016)

Some blog they posted. "Siobhan" skis or something. People were talking about in front of fireplace (eavesdropping, I know).


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 23, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Q Jr was on site this morning.



He'll be firing ticket scanners tomorrow for socializing on company time.


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## River19 (Jan 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> He'll be firing ticket scanners tomorrow for socializing on company time.



Plus, there aren't that many tickets to scan........


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 23, 2016)

Surprised he hasn't gone RFID, so he could eliminate the employee positions.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Surprised he hasn't gone RFID, so he could eliminate the employee positions.



I'm sure that will be the next improvement instead of, say, competent management or increased snowmaking.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2016)

Here is the blog post:
http://qburke.com/blog/reunited-skis-meet-knees/

It's not quite as bad as people say, but it's not that good.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2016)

Nobody was scanning on the last weekday that I skied.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the blog post:
> http://qburke.com/blog/reunited-skis-meet-knees/
> 
> It's not quite as bad as people say, but it's not that good.
> ...



Would make me feel twice about wanting to learn to ski.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Nobody was scanning on the last weekday that I skied.
> 
> 
> .



Only locals ski weekdays. Locals don't count. 


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## Edd (Jan 23, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> Just left, big sign out front, closed. Per Qburke FB, it had sprinkler system blow beginning of the week damaging merch.



Kind of explains it, at least. Lord, what a shit show.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> Just left, big sign out front, closed. Per Qburke FB, it had sprinkler system blow beginning of the week damaging merch. Some notification would have been nice...lot of cold unhappy kids who's parents planned on buying them stuff there. That and the marketing blog of their "Siobhan" who won't ski again (really, Burke?!), were the rumblings in the lodge all day.



Meh nobody was buying any of that Q shit anyway. It's too bad because from what I saw last year they had some good stuff, until it was tattooed with that hideous Q logo. They also had T-shirts that said "Q Burke, Vermont". Simply ridiculous.


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## River19 (Jan 23, 2016)

Crap if I bought all that inventory of non-selling Q shit I would have pulled the fire alarm myself.......Jr probably wanted to put in an Insurance claim and get his money out of that crap.......lol


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 23, 2016)

Gonna be a heckuva bonfire if someone would buy them out. All that Qrap all over the mountain... heck, I'll kick in on the diesel to soak it down with!


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## the original trailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

River19 said:


> If I turn my ear towards the mountain I swear I hear the fat lady warming up...
> 
> Yes,she is, and has been for awhile. The one word summation here is :  Unsustainable . ( period! )


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

River19 said:


> Crap if I bought all that inventory of non-selling Q shit I would have pulled the fire alarm myself.......Jr probably wanted to put in an Insurance claim and get his money out of that crap.......lol



I wouldn't run that idea past that idiot......


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## VTKilarney (Jan 23, 2016)

It's late January and they have barely any snowmaking runs open. The other runs are for rock skis only.  You can't ever turn a profit like this.  I'm getting quite bored skiing the same couple of trails.  It's one reason I took today off.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's late January and they have barely any snowmaking runs open. The other runs are for rock skis only.  You can't ever turn a profit like this.  I'm getting quite bored skiing the same couple of trails.  It's one reason I took today off.



So you must have enjoyed the awesome atmosphere in that new Q lounge at the Q Hotel. Oh, wait.....

I'm seriously hoping that this doesn't turn into another Ascutney. 


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## River19 (Jan 24, 2016)

VTK......you need to grab a fat bike.....change things up a bit 

I would imagine with the limited snowmaking, season passholders would get sick of the same old runs over and over again.  Really takes a mountain with a decent amount of terrain/acres and turns it into a much smaller mountain in reality.  Sad.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

River19 said:


> VTK......you need to grab a fat bike.....change things up a bit
> 
> I would imagine with the limited snowmaking, season passholders would get sick of the same old runs over and over again.  Really takes a mountain with a decent amount of terrain/acres and turns it into a much smaller mountain in reality.  Sad.



That's taking off out here. I'd be interested in trying it.


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## River19 (Jan 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's taking off out here. I'd be interested in trying it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It is very popular here at KT as well.  It is our new winter sport for my wife and I.  Great workout and tons of fun on the singletrack.

Plus, we don't need tons of snow to make it fun.  Back country snowshoeing is a blast but unless you have 2'+ of powder you feel silly on snowshoes as you don't really need them.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 24, 2016)

We are taking our $$$ to Bretton Woods today while our Burke season passes collect some dust.  At a minimum for Burke it's lost food and beverage revenue.  

I'm hoping that the Pats game will keep the crowd down a little bit.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> We are taking our $$$ to Bretton Woods today while our Burke season passes collect some dust.  At a minimum for Burke it's lost food and beverage revenue.
> 
> I'm hoping that the Pats game will keep the crowd down a little bit.



The problem is that they already got your money. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 24, 2016)

I'm quite sure there is going to be a LOT less repeat pass buying for next year... Especially with how poorly the last passholders meeting supposedly went.  Be curious to see if more than an average amount of existing condos go up for sale soon.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'm quite sure there is going to be a LOT less repeat pass buying for next year... Especially with how poorly the last passholders meeting supposedly went.  Be curious to see if more than an average amount of existing condos go up for sale soon.



Their numbers must be low.  His reaction is to repeatedly blame his employees and the locals for his stupidity.  It is so sad.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The problem is that they already got your money.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Not for food and beverage.  Bretton Woods is getting that from us today. 

BW is skiing great today and is not busy at all.  It's a great change from the shit show at Burke even if it's pretty flat.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Not for food and beverage.  Bretton Woods is getting that from us today.
> 
> BW is skiing great today and is not busy at all.  It's a great change from the shit show at Burke even if it's pretty flat.



I get that, but you're already deeply invested at Burke without the $50 in F&B. So you've paid to ski there, you aren't, so he's already got your money (sadly).

I think that next year you should look at Cannon or BW.  Both are a bit more expensive, but they have better value at this point.  BW I think runs a pass deal at about $799 or so.  Sure, it's flat, but they get good snow, have good service, good lifts, and lots of terrain.  Pretty easy drive as well.  Just watch the speed limit in Bethlehem.  


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2016)

Think VTK mentioned he's locked in for next year as well.  White Mountain Superpass would be a good alternative. Cannon /BW/WV/Cranmore

After the season Cannon has had this year, I'd be inclined to spend the extra money for that pass.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Think VTK mentioned he's locked in for next year as well.  White Mountain Superpass would be a good alternative. Cannon /BW/WV/Cranmore
> 
> After the season Cannon has had this year, I'd be inclined to spend the extra money for that pass.



That would be.  

I also know that VTK has bought a lot of gift cards for Q.  Perhaps gift them, sell them on eBay, or use them this summer.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 24, 2016)

The problem is that $1,500 is all on one card.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The problem is that $1,500 is all on one card.
> 
> 
> .



Wow.  Why did you do that?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 24, 2016)

Because the $1,500 gift card only cost me $1,250 thanks to their cyber-Monday promotion.  

In November I thought that it was a great idea.  The joke was on me.


----------



## yeggous (Jan 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Because the $1,500 gift card only cost me $1,250 thanks to their cyber-Monday promotion.
> 
> In November I thought that it was a great idea.  The joke was on me.



I know the urge to buy the cards. I did the same thing and dropped $2,000 on AttiCat cards.

Bretton Woods was great today. I spent the whole day off piste. I had a blast.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Because the $1,500 gift card only cost me $1,250 thanks to their cyber-Monday promotion.
> 
> In November I thought that it was a great idea.  The joke was on me.



Do they expire?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Do they expire?



I am pretty sure that Vermont law says that they can't expire for at least five years.


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 25, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Think VTK mentioned he's locked in for next year as well.  White Mountain Superpass would be a good alternative. Cannon /BW/WV/Cranmore
> 
> After the season Cannon has had this year, I'd be inclined to spend the extra money for that pass.



That SuperPass gives someone like VTK nice variety especially if he can't decide which mtn he prefers. Probably the best play


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

The Super Pass is definitely a great option.  I can ski Bretton Woods with my wife, and Cannon when I'm not with my wife.  

The only downside is that it's about $1,000 more for my family than a Burke-only pass.  

I think that I'll give Burke one more try since I'd like to use my gift card before the mountain goes bankrupt - but after that I'm definitely leaning toward the Super Pass.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

I was actually considering a membership to the Bretton Woods Club.  The biggest reason I was interested is that they have skip the line privileges.  That's really the only benefit that I would care about.

My interest is gone now that I've looked at the price.  For the ski season, it's over $5,400 for a family of four.  No thanks.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Super Pass is definitely a great option.  I can ski Bretton Woods with my wife, and Cannon when I'm not with my wife.
> 
> The only downside is that it's about $1,000 more for my family than a Burke-only pass.
> 
> I think that I'll give Burke one more try since I'd like to use my gift card before the mountain goes bankrupt - but after that I'm definitely leaning toward the Super Pass.



$1000 difference is significant.  But if you figure, you'll get close to two months longer season with Bretton Woods in the mix and likely better mid-winter conditions at most of those areas than what Burke has offered now three years in a row, it's money well spent IMO.

If I had the gift cards like you, I'd likely stick it out one more year.  Then again, if they don't expire you could use it as a point.  Tell Ary straight up, I have money already spent at Burke.  I'll be back in a couple of years.  I'd rather pay extra for a product at a mountain that has management that knows what they're doing.


----------



## Edd (Jan 25, 2016)

Bold and Beautiful pass (Cannon/BW - weekdays) is $379. You also get to ski weekends early/late season. I'm thinking that doesn't work for VK but I'm pointing it out since we're on this topic. Since I'm a weekday skier, it's too cheap for me not to buy every year.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

The Bold and Beautiful Pass is definitely a great deal.  Unfortunately, a weekday only pass doesn't work for me.  I can sneak away from time to time during the week (although my workload has made that VERY difficult), but I really need to be able to ski on weekends as well - especially since my children are in school during the week.

Another interesting pass is offered by Mont Orford.  For $99 CAD ($70 USD) they have a pass that allows you to ski one weekday per week.  I'm only about 1.25 hours from Orford, so it is pretty tempting.  Even if I can't go every week it's still a hell of a deal.  Their cheapest weekday rate is $30 CAD on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, so if you ski just four days over the course of the year you come out ahead.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If I had the gift cards like you, I'd likely stick it out one more year.


That's what I am going to do.  I bought the gift card so I might as well use it.  A family of four skiing on a season pass for about $1,250 all in (thanks to local/family rates) isn't a horrible deal and hopefully there will be some decent snow next year.  This assumes that they don't raise their rates.  They'd have some brass balls if they chose to raise their rates after what they've offered this year.

One way or the other, one year won't kill me.  But I am definitely leaning toward the Super Pass after that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

I just looked up unrestricted season pass rates at Mont Orford.  This year's pass prices total up to $1,518 USD for a family of four.  That's the same price as Burke.  It's a little farther than I would like (1.25 hours), but it's worth considering.  Cannon, by comparison, is about 30 minutes away.  Bretton Woods is 45 minutes.

I will be skiing at Mont Orford with my family during the last week of February, so I'll get an idea of how much we enjoy the place.


----------



## wtcobb (Jan 25, 2016)

Saturday report: I'd post an actual TR but it was too cold in the morning to take pictures and not much to shoot anyways. Groomers were fast - well packed with just enough to grip, at least in the AM. Willoughby and Dipper were the only real runs off the top groomed/laid with snow. Deer Run too, but had some massive ice patches on the tote road. Some natural trails were skiable, even Powerline which I jumped in later in the afternoon. Down by the shack was actually some nice snow for a stretch. Lift line up top was a bit sketchy but fun. Other natural trails needed some serious caution, and others were straight Coreshot City. Doug's Drop in no way should have been open. I wouldn't go down that with rentals. Lift lines were non-existent even on a Saturday. 

All told for the day, better than expected given the doom and gloom I've heard, but not worth writing home (or a full TR here) about.

Aside: I can absolutely see VTK's comment about skiing the same trails over and over. This was my first day at Burke for the season, so it was all new. By early afternoon I had skied it all several times.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I just looked up unrestricted season pass rates at Mont Orford.  This year's pass prices total up to $1,518 USD for a family of four.  That's the same price as Burke.  It's a little farther than I would like (1.25 hours), but it's worth considering.  Cannon, by comparison, is about 30 minutes away.  Bretton Woods is 45 minutes.
> 
> I will be skiing at Mont Orford with my family during the last week of February, so I'll get an idea of how much we enjoy the place.



I think if you are considering leaving Burke than you really need to figure what you like to ski terrain-wise and then go to the nearest place that has that.  Orford is probably cool, but boy that is a haul and you've got the border to deal with.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Orford closed recently because of some labor dispute?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think if you are considering leaving Burke than you really need to figure what you like to ski terrain-wise and then go to the nearest place that has that.  Orford is probably cool, but boy that is a haul and you've got the border to deal with.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Orford closed recently because of some labor dispute?



I'm doing more than thinking about leaving Burke. I have every intention of leaving after next year.  It's tough since we have lots of friends that ski Burke, but at the end of the day it's about the skiing.

I agree that Orford is too far.  I like the idea, but there is a big difference between 30-45 minutes and 75 minutes.  The border isn't a big deal for me since my family has NEXUS cards which gets us through pretty quickly even when the dedicated NEXUS lane is not open.  If there is a delay it's usually coming back to the US, which is more palatable than a delay when driving to the mountain.

Realistically, the choice is really between Cannon and Bretton Woods (or both).  I prefer the terrain at Cannon, but their snowmaking hasn't been much better than Burke's.  That's why I'm really leaning toward the Super Pass.  It gives some good insurance during bad snow years.

I've got plenty of time to think about it...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 25, 2016)

I know I've said this before, but Burke's only chance at survival is if a multi-millionaire or billionaire decides to make it an RPT (Rich Person's Toy).  Outside that, I dont see it being long-time financially viable.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

Bretton Woods has a program that would be PERFECT for my wife.  It's $399 and runs on Saturdays from 9-3 from January 2nd until March 5th.  It's for women only.  They are grouped according to ability.

I have a feeling that she would REALLY improve if she were in this program.  This would also give me and the boys a chance to ski the terrain that we prefer while she is in the lesson.


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 25, 2016)

I've never skied Orford but if you were willing to go 75 mins there I would wonder about Smuggs basically being the same drive time for you.
Certainly Smuggs doesn't have the snowmaking firepower of BW but likely they are better than Cannon/Burke plus have better terrain for all levels and get way more natural.

Assuming you have a family of 4 you could get a Smuggs family pass (2 adults, 2 under 18) for $1736 if you bought early this season.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know I've said this before, but Burke's only chance at survival is if a multi-millionaire or billionaire decides to make it an RPT (Rich Person's Toy).  Outside that, I dont see it being long-time financially viable.


Which is exactly why I don't want to wait to use my gift card.


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 25, 2016)

Also a Bash Badge + at Smuggs gives you early and late season skiing and $25 tix all other days or $15 afternoons.
Badges would run you $716 so you would have $1020 to use to get to the season pass price. 40 full days/68 half days you could allocate to whomever just between 12/18 and 3/14.

Those are a pretty compelling product I think if you run the #'s.


----------



## River19 (Jan 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm doing more than thinking about leaving Burke. I have every intention of leaving after next year.  It's tough since we have lots of friends that ski Burke, but at the end of the day it's about the skiing.
> 
> I agree that Orford is too far.  I like the idea, but there is a big difference between 30-45 minutes and 75 minutes.  The border isn't a big deal for me since my family has NEXUS cards which gets us through pretty quickly even when the dedicated NEXUS lane is not open.  If there is a delay it's usually coming back to the US, which is more palatable than a delay when driving to the mountain.
> 
> ...




VTK I hate to bring up the option but what about using the GCs towards the Jay/Q pass to give yourself some more options


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

River19 said:


> VTK I hate to bring up the option but what about using the GCs towards the Jay/Q pass to give yourself some more options



I'm not a fan of Jay.  I know that I'm in the minority, but I'm not a tree skier so Jay doesn't have much to offer for someone like me.  


.


----------



## folledeski (Jan 25, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Saturday report: I'd post an actual TR but it was too cold in the morning to take pictures and not much to shoot anyways. Groomers were fast - well packed with just enough to grip, at least in the AM. Willoughby and Dipper were the only real runs off the top groomed/laid with snow. Deer Run too, but had some massive ice patches on the tote road. Some natural trails were skiable, even Powerline which I jumped in later in the afternoon. Down by the shack was actually some nice snow for a stretch. Lift line up top was a bit sketchy but fun. Other natural trails needed some serious caution, and others were straight Coreshot City. Doug's Drop in no way should have been open. I wouldn't go down that with rentals. Lift lines were non-existent even on a Saturday.
> 
> All told for the day, better than expected given the doom and gloom I've heard, but not worth writing home (or a full TR here) about.
> 
> Aside: I can absolutely see VTK's comment about skiing the same trails over and over. This was my first day at Burke for the season, so it was all new. By early afternoon I had skied it all several times.



Deer Run definitely needs some extra snow in places (ice / pavement showing through) and is too dicey now for the advanced beginners.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I appreciate the liberal ropes policy for trails like East Bowl, Wilderness, Powerline, Doug's.  It is not much different than the policies at Magic (at least in the past, not sure with current management) and MRG.  They are black trails and have appropriate thin cover warnings.  True experts can avoid most of the bare spots, but are warned in the event they can't.  Far more fun that doing lap after lap on boilerplate snowmaking trails.

I'm not going to say that conditions this weekend were stellar - they weren't, and they were challenging.  Regardless, I heard nothing but "great out there today" comments on the chairlift and positive spin on the conditions.  So, not everyone is unhappy.


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## wtcobb (Jan 25, 2016)

folledeski said:


> Maybe I am in the minority, but I appreciate the liberal ropes policy for trails like East Bowl, Wilderness, Powerline, Doug's.  It is not much different than the policies at Magic (at least in the past, not sure with current management) and MRG.  They are black trails and have appropriate thin cover warnings.  True experts can avoid most of the bare spots, but are warned in the event they can't.  Far more fun that doing lap after lap on boilerplate snowmaking trails.



This is certainly true. Having the option to ski these trails was great, and everything was well marked as thin cover. The whiteboards at the lifts/base lodge said the same with no marketing masking the truth. East Bowl had plenty of rough spots, but it was still fun to ski and dodging the crap makes it more fun, sometimes.

Also, hope my report wasn't read as complete negativity as that wasn't the goal. I'd strain to say it was "great" as conditions simply weren't great, but I had fun, and that's what matters most.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 25, 2016)

Even their snow report got it wrong today.
 Skies will remain mostly cloudy with a few peeks of sunshine throughout the day.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

Yup.  They blew it.  It's absolutely gorgeous out today.  I'm glad that I worked Saturday so I could take this afternoon off.  




.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 25, 2016)

How many people there today?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> How many people there today?



I see one in that pic.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 25, 2016)

Well at least the kids have fun at Burke and aren't interested in any of the drama.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> How many people there today?


It was absolutely dead.  There were some school groups, some chaperones with the school groups, and just a few season pass holders.  I didn't see a single day ticket, other than on a member of a school group.  

Conditions were firm but edgeable.  For non-snowmaking trails, I ventured onto Mountain Marsh, Little Dipper, and Lift Line.  Those trails needed snow, but they were fun enough - even if I wasn't in a rush to do them a second time.

I wound up having a great day thanks to the weather.  There wasn't much open (at least if you valued your skis), but it was so nice out that it didn't bother me that much.

The hotel sure looks like it's ready to open, at least from the outside.  They had a snowgun set up in a tree cut between the hotel and High Meadow Pass.  It looked like they were preparing to blow snow to connect the hotel with High Meadow Pass.  I can't imagine they would do so if the hotel wasn't going to open this winter.

It looks like they are cutting back on expenses.  I haven't had my ticket scanned the last two weekdays that I have skied.  Last year they scanned on every day.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

I forgot to mention one of the more interesting sights at Burke today.  A snowboarder had a large picture of Ary that he would pull out every time he saw somebody he could show it to.  He showed me the photo once on the trail and once while he was on the trail and I was on the lift.  

I never could pin down his intent, but it was definitely unique.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I forgot to mention one of the more interesting sights at Burke today.  A snowboarder had a large picture of Ary that he would pull out every time he saw somebody he could show it to.  He showed me the photo once on the trail and once while he was on the trail and I was on the lift.
> 
> I never could pin down his intent, but it was definitely unique.



Um, OK. What did he say? What was the context?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Um, OK. What did he say? What was the context?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



All he would say was that it was Ary.  I tried to bait him but he just took off down the trail.


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## River19 (Jan 25, 2016)

OK so that is friggin' odd.........


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 25, 2016)

Well that is wacked. Was there a set of crosshairs overlaid on the picture?  

:grin:

Was the frame in the shape of a Q ??


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2016)

River19 said:


> OK so that is friggin' odd.........



+ 1


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2016)

This is a little too far away to be a replacement for Burke, but...

We spend quite a bit of time in Granby, Quebec for bicycling.  While we don't mountain bike (we do the rail-trails), I just noticed that Mont Bromont has an incredible deal.

For non-Quebec residents, they have an offer called the Sweet Pass.  It gets you unlimited alpine skiing,  mountain bike riding, and access to their water park.  The pass is only $199 CAD ($140 USD) for adults and $169 ($119 USD) for children.

The also offer single day tickets for non-Quebec residents.  The price is $49 CAD ($34 USD) for two tickets.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I just noticed that Mont Bromont has an incredible deal.


Just looked at their website.I'm trying to figure out what slope sides are.They show 7/7 open daytime and 3/7 open nights.I'm guessing maybe lift pod areas?

Just figured it out.It is pod areas.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Just looked at their website.I'm trying to figure out what slope sides are.They show 7/7 open daytime and 3/7 open nights.I'm guessing maybe lift pod areas?
> 
> Just figured it out.It is pod areas.



Sounds like a quirk of translating from French to English.

If the Eastern Township resorts were smart, they'd offer some sort of combo-ticket to non-Quebec residents that would allow you to sample the various resorts.  They are close enough together that this would be a very appealing ticket option.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Sounds like a quirk of translating from French to English.
> 
> If the Eastern Township resorts were smart, they'd offer some sort of combo-ticket to non-Quebec residents that would allow you to sample the various resorts.  They are close enough together that this would be a very appealing ticket option.



I think that they used to market together.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 26, 2016)

Good morning 




Winter Sunrise by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


A little while later on the way to work, the warm air running over the cold air made for some interesting clouds:




Sky Waves by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


Light rain showers this afternoon/evening and then more warmth and non-frozen precip this weekend. Uggghhh. :???:


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## Smellytele (Jan 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Good morning
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I have seen it will be light rain showers this afternoon/evening but of the frozen type this weekend but only 30-40% chance of anything


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> What I have seen it will be light rain showers this afternoon/evening but of the frozen type this weekend but only 30-40% chance of anything



I really hope that conditions hold up today.  Burke skied quite nice on Monday - at least on the snowmaking trails.  But we are in desperate need of natural snow.  So much of the mountain's potential can't be used right now - at least if you care about your skis.  It's really getting frustrating as we head into February.

I'm actually quite worried for Burke this year.  They have to be taking a financial bath.  Monday was an absolutely gorgeous day and even by Burke standards the mountain was dead.  I just don't think that people are willing to call in sick when so few trails are viable.


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## oldtimer (Jan 26, 2016)

Not just Burke-  this is true across the East.  Sugarloaf is way down in Jan, Smuggs no one there on weekdays.  This season is not salvagable from a financial standpoint.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 26, 2016)

You know, and not just at Burke either, the slow but steady increase in the prices of passes and day tickets, are probably having some effect on how many skiers, who are on the fence about going, actually ARE going. 

If they don't see/hear about snow, and great conditions... and then they see the cost for FEW trails open, purely on manmade...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2016)

That's a very good point.  Ski areas really don't adjust their prices based on conditions.  Sure, there are some early season rates, but once the regular season kicks in they don't adjust their prices for conditions.  This seems short sighted, especially when you realize that they are losing food and beverage revenue.  

There were TONS of empty chairs going up the mountain yesterday.  I can see why.  It simply wasn't worth the day rate for what they had to offer.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Not just Burke-  this is true across the East.  Sugarloaf is way down in Jan, Smuggs no one there on weekdays.  This season is not salvagable from a financial standpoint.



smuggs was pretty empty this past saturday and sunday too. saturday only 5 minute waits on madonna1 and sterling. sunday was ski on to sterling and barely any wait at madonna.


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## yeggous (Jan 26, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> smuggs was pretty empty this past saturday and sunday too. saturday only 5 minute waits on madonna1 and sterling. sunday was ski on to sterling and barely any wait at madonna.



I think we need to work on our understanding of the word empty. 5 minute lift lines are long, especially by Burke standards.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I think we need to work on our understanding of the word empty. 5 minute lift lines are long, especially by Burke standards.



5 minute lift lines are super short for a smuggler's notch saturday. all lifts are ancient and slow double chairs.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 26, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I think we need to work on our understanding of the word empty. 5 minute lift lines are long, especially by Burke standards.


Killington standards too M-F.

Intolerable in fact. Haven't waited more than a chair/gondi or two all season.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 27, 2016)

comparing killington weekdays to smuggler's weekends isn't a fair comparison. killington weekends are one of the worst possible places and times for lines


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## Smellytele (Jan 27, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> comparing killington weekdays to smuggler's weekends isn't a fair comparison. killington weekends are one of the worst possible places and times for lines



He wouldn't know he only skis on weekdays yada yada yada.


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## wtcobb (Jan 27, 2016)

Another perspective on first-time skiing from Liftopia's blog - very similar back story, but a much more enticing perspective than the Q-blog.

http://blog.liftopia.com/blog/9-things-i-learned-while-learning-to-ski/


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2016)

I just saw some of the best evidence that the hotel is indeed close to opening.  While taking a quick look at the webcam, I saw a truck leaving the hotel that looked like this.



As you can see, this truck belongs to Reinhart Foodservice, LLC.  Reinhart is a food service provider for restaurants, hotels, hospitals, etc.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 27, 2016)

Yeah, I had seen something yesterday about reservations for Valentines evening?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, I had seen something yesterday about reservations for Valentines evening?


Good catch.  

The pricing for their Valentine's event is interesting:
_Dinner & Comedy for two - $110.00 (+TAX) 

Dinner & Comedy, Single Adult - $65.00 (+TAX)_


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## River19 (Jan 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Good catch.
> 
> The pricing for their Valentine's event is interesting:
> _Dinner & Comedy for two - $110.00 (+TAX)
> ...



I don't know about you guys, but I don't put the success of my V-Day evening in the hands of a never been open restaurant and staff......that sounds......"risky".....


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 27, 2016)

River19 said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I don't put the success of my V-Day evening in the hands of a never been open restaurant and staff......that sounds......"risky".....



That is why they have a price for "singles" .


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2016)

What should Burke's snowmaking strategy be from this point on?

The good news is that they are intending to make more snow.  I wouldn't have blamed them if they threw in the towel.  It's late in the year for snowmaking, and from a financial standpoint this year is a disaster.

Their plan is to open more terrain.  Specifically, Foxes Folly, The Shoot, and Ledges.  I am all for opening more terrain.  On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that they have made the bare minimum snow needed to get their existing trails open.  I'm wondering just how vulnerable the Dippers and Willoughby are.  

What would you do?  Would you shore up some existing trails, or would you expand terrain?  I guess I would expand terrain but leave time to freshen up the Dippers and Willoughby if needed.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2016)

Whatever it takes to have the most terrain open possible and best conditions they can have for Presidents week.  

Throwing in towel while other areas have not = lost season pass holders for next year


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Whatever it takes to have the most terrain open possible and best conditions they can have for Presidents week.
> 
> Throwing in towel while other areas have not = lost season pass holders for next year


Then they should definitely expand terrain.  The Dippers and Willoughby will hold up through President's Day weekend.  And you are correct that this is MUCH more important than how long they hold up in March.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2016)

I think you all are thinking about this TOO logically.....at least for Q.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2016)

Didn't you mean "Qlogically"


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Didn't you mean "Qlogically"



Q and logic don't go together; it is Qreactive and Qemotional. If there were logic then a lot of the decisions would have come out differently. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2016)

Today's snow report is classic Q Burke:

"Snow makers are back at it with 29 towers osculating on Upper Warren's Way, Upper and Lower Foxes Folly.  Snow making has also been added to the snow report on Lower Warren's Way because of the spray, use caution as you go through these areas."


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## Mapnut (Jan 28, 2016)

Should I translate that as "snow is drifting down from Upper Warren's Way to Lower Warren's Way, although we aren't actually making snow on it"? Or is that too logical?


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## oldtimer (Jan 28, 2016)

There is no known translation algorithm for Q-speak.


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## wtcobb (Jan 28, 2016)

Jay is making snow and Q is downwind.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Jay is making snow and Q is downwind.



Good point.  I heard that it is snowing in the arctic north of Q Burke, so technically aren't they covering the mountain with 100% snowmaking?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2016)

Some snow just got tracked from the parking lot onto the J-Bar hill underneath somebody's shoes.  I'm surprised they didn't add this to their snowmaking report.


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## wtcobb (Jan 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Some snow just got tracked from the parking lot onto the J-Bar hill underneath somebody's shoes.  I'm surprised they didn't add this to their snowmaking report.



Bus boy emptied a bucket of freezer shavings from Tamarack. Snowmakers are KILLING IT today!


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## oldtimer (Jan 28, 2016)

There are no more busboys at the Tami-   Q customer service = bus your own damned dishes.



wtcobb said:


> Bus boy emptied a bucket of freezer shavings from Tamarack. Snowmakers are KILLING IT today!


----------



## wtcobb (Jan 28, 2016)

:lol: How shortsighted of me!


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> There are no more busboys at the Tami-   Q customer service = bus your own damned dishes.


I have heard that busboys may be coming back once they add a $3.50/pp "plate removal fee" to each check.


----------



## KingdomBC (Jan 28, 2016)

os·cu·late
ˈäskyəˌlāt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: osculating
1.
MATHEMATICS
(of a curve or surface) touch (another curve or surface) so as to have a common tangent at the point of contact.
"the plots have been drawn using osculating orbital elements"
2.
formalhumorous
kiss.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 28, 2016)

I noticed that as well.  I think she meant "oscillate", except that the fan guns aren't on Upper Warren's.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 29, 2016)

Hopefully this pic comes out of the "awesome" snowmaking work being done up there:


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 30, 2016)

There is an article in today's paper about the lack of snow and its impact on local businesses.  There's a gem of a quote from Jessica at Burke:

"Q Burke's million dollar snow making investment this past year certainly carried its weight as we have 34 of our 36 trails open in addition to our first glade and two terrain parks all of which came online this past weekend,” reported Sechler. “We continue to make snow when temperatures allow to increase our base and compliment whatever Mother Nature decides to send our way.”

She also said that skier visits are "slightly lacking" due to the lack of snowfall.


----------



## zeke (Jan 30, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is an article in today's paper about the lack of snow and its impact on local businesses.  There's a gem of a quote from Jessica at Burke:
> 
> " we have 34 of our 36 trails open
> 
> She also said that skier visits are "slightly lacking" due to the lack of snowfall.




only ski mountain I've ever seen that downgrades their trail numbers to sound like they're close to 100% open. so if they get a huge storm n the next few weeks are they gonna stick to 36 trails? or magically go back to 55? 

and "slightly lacking" due to snowfall, massively lacking due to poor management and general assholery


----------



## colinuberalles (Jan 30, 2016)

I fear it's no longer going to be a "hidden" gem in Vermont because of this news.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2016)

colinuberalles said:


> I fear it's no longer going to be a "hidden" gem in Vermont because of this news.



It can't get much worse....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is an article in today's paper about the lack of snow and its impact on local businesses.  There's a gem of a quote from Jessica at Burke:
> 
> "Q Burke's million dollar snow making investment this past year certainly carried its weight as we have 34 of our 36 trails open in addition to our first glade and two terrain parks all of which came online this past weekend,” reported Sechler. “We continue to make snow when temperatures allow to increase our base and compliment whatever Mother Nature decides to send our way.”
> 
> She also said that skier visits are "slightly lacking" due to the lack of snowfall.



If this was an Email then no doubt Q wrote it. If she actually said it he told her to say it. Anyone who has watched even a little (me 2,000 miles away included) can see that this has been a complete  shit show. They've got no credibility. It's really sad. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 31, 2016)

Staff is trimmed to the bone. They've got nobody cleaning up in the cafeteria. 

There's a manager who has been standing around for about an hour doing nothing while tables look like this. 



I tried to buy ski poles for my son who snapped a pole.  They don't have any for sale after the flood that hit the shop.  

Off to Village Sports.  I tried, Ary.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Staff is trimmed to the bone. They've got nobody cleaning up in the cafeteria.
> 
> There's a manager who has been standing around for about an hour doing nothing while tables look like this.
> 
> ...



Well, people should bus their own tables. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## 56fish (Jan 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, people should bus their own tables.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I do.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 31, 2016)

Me too, but I guess not everyone does.


----------



## Edd (Jan 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, people should bus their own tables.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Mm... That's a discussion. Anybody want to argue that they shouldn't have to bus their own tables? Because I see this crap too much every season. I'd like to hear from the "I don't bus a friggin thing crowd". Please explain why you leave your trash for others to pick up. Who are these people?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 31, 2016)

I pick up after myself, as does the rest of my family, and all the kids. It's how we were raised, and how we raise our children. But you still have to have a decent employee around to clean up after the asshats that weren't brought up to know any better.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> Mm... That's a discussion. Anybody want to argue that they shouldn't have to bus their own tables? Because I see this crap too much every season. I'd like to hear from the "I don't bus a friggin thing crowd". Please explain why you leave your trash for others to pick up. Who are these people?



90% of the time it's teenagers.  At least that was my observation managing Base Lodge food service when I had that job


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> Mm... That's a discussion. Anybody want to argue that they shouldn't have to bus their own tables? Because I see this crap too much every season. I'd like to hear from the "I don't bus a friggin thing crowd". Please explain why you leave your trash for others to pick up. Who are these people?



It's a sense of entitlement.  Folks feel that it's OK to pay to have others clean up after them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2016)

Locals are wearing these:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> Who are these people?



Low-class slobs who suffered poor parenting.


----------



## Bene288 (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Locals are wearing these:



Reminds me of shirts I saw/had living in Boston about 9 years ago. The green line trains went down for two days after a major ice storm. People started handing out shirts that said "FUCT" with the T being the logo of the MBTA.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

Lots of brown showing now. 



They are still taking hotel reservations for February 5th.  Will it really open then?  That's just a couple of days away!

It looks like they have been training front desk staff:
http://qburke.com/blog/service-interruption-my-day-job/


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

This was just posted to Q Burke's Facebook page:
Dear QBurke, I wanted to bring to your attention a STAFF TRAINING GAP that my 5-year old son and I experienced yesterday on the Sherburne Lift. During the past weeks my husband has been working with my son on getting on the chair by himself with his supervision. Since he had successfully done it a couple of times, I decided to watch him do it by the end of the day. The chair was coming, I sat on it and checked on my son. By the position of his knees I thought he was on safely. Suddenly he started to slip and I realized that it was too late for me to get a handle of his harness. In my panic I started to yell as I saw my child go down and duck under to avoid getting hit. At that moment I couldn't get off the lift so I had to leave my 5-year old there and hope that someone else could help him. But HELP NEVER CAME. From the distance the only thing I could do was shout at him that I would come and get him as soon as possible. I saw him slowly get out of the ditch ALL BY HIMSELF. I came to his rescue as soon as possible but he had been alone and afraid for what felt as an eternity. I am left with many questions: WHERE WERE THE LIFT OPERATORS? WHY DIDN'T THEY STOP THE LIFT? WHY DID NO ONE COME TO HIS RESCUE? WHAT IF HE GOT HURT? WOULD ANYONE EVER HELP HIM? I reported the incident to Customer Service only to hear that I should have been more careful and that once people are on the chairs the lift operators only check on the following customers. I am trying to contain myself here. What kind of customer service is that? Can I trust QBurke to listen to me and instead of being defensive, acknowledge that there are problems that need to be addressed?


----------



## River19 (Feb 1, 2016)

While I think the mother could have used some more care possibly.......it sounds like her concerns post fall seem reasonable in my humble opinion.  At the very least I am surprised no other skiers who witnessed the issue popped over to stand with him until Mom came back down.....then again, were there any other skiers?  And if there weren't any/many other skiers, WTF was the liftie doing?

Again, I put the blame on the fall squarely on Mom, but post fall.....seems like Q kinda Qcrapped themselves.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

River19 said:


> While I think the mother could have used some more care possibly.......it sounds like her concerns post fall seem reasonable in my humble opinion.  At the very least I am surprised no other skiers who witnessed the issue popped over to stand with him until Mom came back down.....then again, were there any other skiers?  And if there weren't any/many other skiers, WTF was the liftie doing?
> 
> Again, I put the blame on the fall squarely on Mom, but post fall.....seems like Q kinda Qcrapped themselves.....



Agree on both points.  

First, as a Dad with a kid who skis, I know it is MY responsibility to ensure that she gets on the chair with me.  She sounds defensive as to the whole, "well he could almost ride it by himself" line.  Had she been paying attention and spotting the kid the whole thing would not have happened.  Instead she assumed that a liftie, standing over by the stand, would intervene.  

As to the second point, I am really quite surprised by that.  A liftie seeing the kid coming off would have stopped the chair.  A liftie certainly would have gone over and helped the kid out.  If the liftie just let the lift keep spinning, ignored the kid, and the Mom came down now 6-7 minutes later and the kid was there, then I would be very surprised and very concerned about the level of training and service.  All lifties are trained to look up and down the line to ensure that there are no problems.  

So I blame both equally.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

Bene288 said:


> Reminds me of shirts I saw/had living in Boston about 9 years ago. The green line trains went down for two days after a major ice storm. People started handing out shirts that said "FUCT" with the T being the logo of the MBTA.



I think that the last two years the fact that they had SOME decent snow has really kept the anger against Q at bay.  Now that this year has been terrible for conditions, folks are doubly pissed at Q.  This hopefully will be the year that forces Ary to leave.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of brown showing now.
> 
> View attachment 18834




What webpage are you going to for the larger cam view? The one one on the snow report page is so tiny and the enlarge button does nothing. 

And by Wednesday afternoon, those "thin spots" where there is no man made snow are going to be completely bare spots.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> This hopefully will be the year that forces Ary to leave.



We could only hope...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> What webpage are you going to for the larger cam view? The one one on the snow report page is so tiny and the enlarge button does nothing.
> 
> And by Wednesday afternoon, those "thin spots" where there is no man made snow are going to be completely bare spots.




Yeah, I've been trying to figure out how to get a larger view too...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

Trail count down to 17/50


----------



## River19 (Feb 1, 2016)

So this is now where we will get more insight into the intentions of Q......they have a melting mountain, just before the last big ski weekend/vacation period.  If they are truly committed to running the mountain as a viable ski resort for years to come, they will double down on the snowmaking on not just the race trails, but some other terrain as well.  

The weather past next weekend looks to be prime for snowmaking, especially at night and you know other areas will be ensuring they do whatever they can to keep folks from canceling their Feb vacation plans.  I anticipate other mountains to be public and aggressive with their snowmaking effort.

I'm not sure a FB post of "we got 29 guns blazing away" will really fire up hotel reservations, drive day pass sales or keep 2015/2016 passholders from defecting to Cannon, Bretton etc.

This next 5 week period could mean the difference between losing some season pass sales next year or a ton of season pass sales.....


----------



## River19 (Feb 1, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Trail count down to 17/50



so they "found" the other 14 trails?  They could only find 36 the other day in the paper.....lol


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> What webpage are you going to for the larger cam view? The one one on the snow report page is so tiny and the enlarge button does nothing.



It's a screen shot taken from my iPad.  For some reason, on the iPad you can expand the camera view so it takes up the whole screen on the iPad - but not on a Windows computer.  To take the screen shot, you hit the home button and the power button at the same time.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Trail count down to 17/50



In this morning's emailed snow report they stated 34 trails open today.  Why is it that the right hand never knows what the left hand is doing?  Or was trickery their strategy?

17 trails and the thaw is far from over.  

River19, unfortunately they just don't have the snowmaking power to do anything meaningful prior to President's Day weekend.  There isn't a ton of snow even on the snowmaking trails.  Nothing has been refreshed.  They've made the bare minimum amount of snow and then moved on to the next trail.  

Their only defensive tactic has been to be very aggressive with opening trails that have thin cover.  Well... that plan isn't looking too good right now as those trails are roped off.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

BTW, at the last passholder meeting, Ary said that he was duped when he bought the ski area.  He says that he was mislead as to the skiable acreage and the percentage of snowmaking coverage.  (Nice due diligence, Ary.)

He said that he was told that snowmaking coverage was 80%.  He told passholders that in reality it is 60%.  

Apparently it's fine when Ary is the one doing the duping.  Their website says that they have 70% snowmaking coverage.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

River19 said:


> so they "found" the other 14 trails?  They could only find 36 the other day in the paper.....lol



They have 36 trails and 14 glades.  Somebody in marketing must have screwed up and used 50 instead of 36.  As a general rule, they only include the glades in their overall trail count when the glades are open.  It's just more manipulation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> BTW, at the last passholder meeting, Ary said that he was duped when he bought the ski area.  He says that he was mislead as to the skiable acreage and the percentage of snowmaking coverage.  (Nice due diligence, Ary.)
> 
> He said that he was told that snowmaking coverage was 80%.  He told passholders that in reality it is 60%.
> 
> Apparently it's fine when Ary is the one doing the duping.  Their website says that they have 70% snowmaking coverage.



Depends upon how one calculates it--is it % based upon number of trails covered or number of acres?  I believe that the standard is the latter. I know that they significantly increased snowmaking coverage (and being creative to include trails such as Boarderline, Toll Road, Upper Lift Line, Middle Fox's, etc.  They used to stretch hoses and cover trail sections to open them.  Now they don't have enough staff to even do jack.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In this morning's emailed snow report they stated 34 trails open today.  Why is it that the right hand never knows what the left hand is doing?  Or was trickery their strategy?
> 
> 17 trails and the thaw is far from over.
> 
> ...



and that 17/50 count was:



> Updated Mon Feb 1st 9:05


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> and that 17/50 count was:



I was at the mountain yesterday. There is absolutely no way anyone believed that the trail count would be 34 today. I actually laughed when I saw the email.


.


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 1, 2016)

Yesterday I skied East Bowl at wrap up time just in front of ski patrol.  We all agreed that skiing out there was done until we get some snow.  That was before this week's mess.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

Sweet, one of my Burke photos was used for the cover story about Burke in the North Star Monthly!


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 1, 2016)

OK-  I'll bite.  Which of your fabulous images?????




from_the_NEK said:


> Sweet, one of my Burke photos was used for the cover story about Burke in the North Star Monthly!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

The color version of this:



Burke Behind the Fence by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

Can you give us a link to the article?  Looks like they have an article from last month online.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you give us a link to the article?  Looks like they have an article from last month online.


The hard copy just came out. And the articles are behind a paywall.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The hard copy just came out. And the articles are behind a paywall.



Geesh, you are worse than Masskier with his teases of articles that we can't see 

If you bought it, would you recommend one get a copy of it for the Burke article?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Geesh, you are worse than Masskier with his teases of articles that we can't see
> 
> If you bought it, would you recommend one get a copy of it for the Burke article?



Yes I would recommend it. The article revolves around an interview with Ford Hubbard and goes through the history of Burke ownership. Although it treads pretty lightly on the current ownership.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Geesh, you are worse than Masskier with his teases of articles that we can't see
> 
> If you bought it, would you recommend one get a copy of it for the Burke article?



And for the record, I can't see the article either. I bought a copy at the grocery store at lunchtime.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

You can get a free copy at the back entrance to the comfort inn in St. Johnsbury.  I'd be happy to scan the article for you, Trailboss.  


EDIT: Wrong paper.  I was thinking of the Northland Journal.


----------



## dlague (Feb 1, 2016)

zeke said:


> only ski mountain I've ever seen that downgrades their trail numbers to sound like they're close to 100% open. so if they get a huge storm n the next few weeks are they gonna stick to 36 trails? or magically go back to 55?
> 
> and "slightly lacking" due to snowfall, massively lacking due to poor management and general assholery



Thought that was odd how theatric count fell.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

There is also a good article about John Worth and the ski patrol.

Just checked and the website is updated with the new articles (that are still behind a paywall  ).

http://www.northstarmonthly.com/


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is also a good article about John Worth and the ski patrol.
> 
> Just checked and the website is updated with the new articles (that are still behind a paywall  ).
> 
> http://www.northstarmonthly.com/



The photo can be seen online:
http://www.northstarmonthly.com/articles/timber-tourism

And really that's the most important part.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The photo can be seen online:
> http://www.northstarmonthly.com/articles/timber-tourism
> 
> And really that's the most important part.



Unfortunately, the snippet page infront of the paywall doesn't show the photo credit (it doesn't show the article author credit either).

However, since it is a monthly publication, the paper will be visible on new stands for a month. And the color photo does grab your attention when perusing the rack .


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

There is a 3 month free trial

http://northstarmonthly.com/trial-subscription-offer


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 1, 2016)

Another great picture BTW FTNEK 

:beer:


----------



## River19 (Feb 2, 2016)

Fantastic shot NEK.......

I'll have to pick one up


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2016)

Email trail report says 15 trails today.  The website says 13.

Not good news with President's Day weekend on the horizon.

The website is still taking hotel reservations for Friday night.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Feb 2, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> There is also a good article about John Worth and the ski patrol.
> 
> http://www.northstarmonthly.com/



John spent a night at my ski house in Franconia many moons agne tall dude.Is he still working at Burke?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2016)




----------



## oldtimer (Feb 2, 2016)

Let's give credit where it is due.  They did fire up the guns last night, knowing they have a hot & wet blast coming.  I might have been tempted to save my bullets.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2016)

Very fair.  They've been aggressive with what they have available.  It's the system itself that has held them back.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 2, 2016)

Well at least water isn't going to be a problem


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Let's give credit where it is due.  They did fire up the guns last night, knowing they have a hot & wet blast coming.  I might have been tempted to save my bullets.



Well....is that credit-worthy or plain dumb then?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Well....is that credit-worthy or plain dumb then?



Snowmaking was on Upper Warren's Way.  I wonder if it had more to do with their contractual obligation to get Upper Warren's Way open by a set date.  No doubt that date has come and gone, but the obligation remains.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Snowmaking was on Upper Warren's Way.  I wonder if it had more to do with their contractual obligation to get Upper Warren's Way open by a set date.  No doubt that date has come and gone, but the obligation remains.



But if their line is that they don't have money to properly operate than why spend money on labor and electricity to make snow that will melt so quickly?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 2, 2016)

Temps and humidity are good right now. Why not build up some piles that they can spread out after the rain to fill in damage? If they have a weather window to make snow, I say use it. Maybe there is a race on the training hill this weekend and they don't want to be blowing snow the night before trying to patch any holes?


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 2, 2016)

Big race on Sat and Sunday.  Upper training hill is really thin on the poma side where the big depression is-


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Big race on Sat and Sunday.  Upper training hill is really thin on the poma side where the big depression is-



Ah, makes sense now.


----------



## flakeydog (Feb 2, 2016)

There is also a High School race (supposed to be) on Friday.  Hoping for the best on that one.  Also looks like an FIS race there Sat/Sun so I assume they will need top to bottom on that run.  HS and younger USSA races can get away with midstation on the poma.  I have to think that for what BMA kids are paying, there better damn well be snow on that training hill!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2016)

flakeydog said:


> There is also a High School race (supposed to be) on Friday.  Hoping for the best on that one.  Also looks like an FIS race there Sat/Sun so I assume they will need top to bottom on that run.  HS and younger USSA races can get away with midstation on the poma.  I have to think that for what BMA kids are paying, there better damn well be snow on that training hill!



One would hope, but we are talking about this guy:







I wonder if there will be a move by BMA to manage the risk of Q by either moving or somehow taking over the mountain (again) since the dumb management is really posing a serious threat to the school.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if there will be a move by BMA to manage the risk of Q by either moving or somehow taking over the mountain (again) since the dumb management is really posing a serious threat to the school.



That's actually an interesting idea.  I am sure that Quiros would love to unload the ski area operation if he knew that he could still develop and run the hotels, aquatic centers, etc.

I think that a more likely scenario would be that BMA completely takes over the training hill including a right to make snow there without interference from Ary.  They could even be responsible for their own grooming.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's actually an interesting idea.  I am sure that Quiros would love to unload the ski area operation if he knew that he could still develop and run the hotels, aquatic centers, etc.
> 
> I think that a more likely scenario would be that BMA completely takes over the training hill including a right to make snow there without interference from Ary.  They could even be responsible for their own grooming.



They need more than that training hill for the school. Remember that several other ski trails on the mountain, including the Dippers and the Willoughby trails are all F I S sanctioned.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 3, 2016)

Hotel reservations have been pushed back.  The earliest date is now February 12th.  

So best case scenario is that they will open on Friday of President's Day weekend.  But a prudent person would wonder if they are going to miss President's Day weekend this year.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 3, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Hotel reservations have been pushed back.  The earliest date is now February 12th.



Didn't see that coming, did we?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 3, 2016)

Well at least the weather can't get any worse.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 3, 2016)

Q Burke threw in the towel and closed for the day.  I don't blame them one bit for closing.


----------



## flakeydog (Feb 4, 2016)

FYI- the High School race for tomorrow has been moved to the following week.  I suspect that they bumped the race and are using friday to make snow and/or condition the race trail for the FIS race on Sat/Sun.  Any observations from those closer to the hill?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

The emailed snow report now claims that they have a total of 53 trails.  Just a couple of days ago it was 50, and before that it was 36.  

Hopefully someday they will figure out how to count accurately.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

Just a little bit of melting. 






.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The emailed snow report now claims that they have a total of 53 trails.  Just a couple of days ago it was 50, and before that it was 36.
> 
> Hopefully someday they will figure out how to count accurately.



I noticed that as well.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

Is it just me, or is the website down?


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Is it just me, or is the website down?



Yep.  It is down.


----------



## wtcobb (Feb 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Is it just me, or is the website down?



Temporary maintenance to adjust the trail list


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Temporary maintenance to adjust the trail list



Or seizure of servers by SEC/Feds because it was paid for using EB-5 funds.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Temporary maintenance to adjust the trail list



Maybe they are adding this job announcement:

HEAD OF TRAIL COUNTING:

Must be able to count past 36.  Must be able to make numbers up when directed by your superior.  Ability to work for a megalomaniac is preferred.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 4, 2016)

I think they are "updating their website". The email snow report had something about "how do you like our new look".

All kidding and criticism aside, this thaw has been terrible for the non-snowmaking trails on the mtn. They are pretty much back to square 1. I was up a the mtn a lunchtime today (not for skiing) and snapped a few shots. Just ridiculous conditions for February. The groomed trails were probably okay today since the temps were still above freezing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think they are "updating their website". The email snow report had something about "how do you like our new look".
> 
> All kidding and criticism aside, this thaw has been terrible for the non-snowmaking trails on the mtn. They are pretty much back to square 1. I was up a the mtn a lunchtime today (not for skiing) and snapped a few shots. Just ridiculous conditions for February. The groomed trails were probably okay today since the temps were still above freezing.



Wow.  That is pretty sad.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 4, 2016)

That must have shut down snowmobiling and nordic skiing too.

I guess this will make the new fatbike sport more attractive in these conditions?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

They had better pray for snow.  If they don't get a decent amount of natural snow between now and President's Day weekend, they are going to be in a world of hurt.  

They gambled on building a hotel before improving snowmaking.  In hindsight it was a bad gamble.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That must have shut down snowmobiling and nordic skiing too.
> 
> I guess this will make the new fatbike sport more attractive in these conditions?



Can one fat bike in these conditions?  I thought it was more for snow and frozen ground.


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 4, 2016)

Chicken/egg problem.  All seems moot at the moment as they seem to have no interest in actually OPENING the hotel.  They have beds, they have food, they have computers.  I have seen all of that.  No doubt money is the issue, but for Christ sakes why doesn't someone write a check and get this ball rolling.  Whether it is paying off the GC or funding some other thing they need to get it going.  This is a much large waste than not having snowmaking.  They built it on the premise that "build it and they will come".  Instead, they are working on the actuality of "build it and let it rot".




VTKilarney said:


> They had better pray for snow.  If they don't get a decent amount of natural snow between now and President's Day weekend, they are going to be in a world of hurt.
> 
> They gambled on building a hotel before improving snowmaking.  In hindsight it was a bad gamble.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Chicken/egg problem.  All seems moot at the moment as they seem to have no interest in actually OPENING the hotel.  They have beds, they have food, they have computers.  I have seen all of that.  No doubt money is the issue, but for Christ sakes why doesn't someone write a check and get this ball rolling.  Whether it is paying off the GC or funding some other thing they need to get it going.  This is a much large waste than not having snowmaking.  They built it on the premise that "build it and they will come".  Instead, they are working on the actuality of "build it and let it rot".



Very true.  Just shows that someone has no idea what they are doing and is too proud to admit it.


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Can one fat bike in these conditions?  I thought it was more for snow and frozen ground.



Some people use fatbikes in the summer.  Never tried one in summer conditions.  I'm skeptical.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Some people use fatbikes in the summer.  Never tried one in summer conditions.  I'm skeptical.



I'll get to the point: I thought that they were for snow and ice.  I'd imagine that if it is warm and muddy out that taking a bike onto the trails will do significant damage to the trails and create a lot of problems.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 4, 2016)

The hotel was getting its final state inspection today that when passed officially makes it a non-construction zone. Look for the official opening to happen next weekend.


----------



## River19 (Feb 4, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Some people use fatbikes in the summer.  Never tried one in summer conditions.  I'm skeptical.



I rode mine about 250 miles in the summer......but I have a number of bikes to play around on as those are our toys.......in the summer....amazing traction in gnarly wet muddy rooty/rocky stuff......childish fun everywhere else.

And these conditions suck for FBs as well.....ice is no bueno.  Packed 5-10" is very nice.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 4, 2016)

When the hotel opens, will the trail count change too?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2016)

Ten snowmaking guns going last night.  Take that Killington!

The plan is to go back and refresh snow on the Dippers and Willoughby.  So unless there is meaningful natural snowfall, 15 trails is what you are going to get for President's Day weekend.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2016)

The outfit that did the window treatments for the hotel posted a picture on their website.  Judging by these pictures it sure looks like the hotel is ready to open.


----------



## wtcobb (Feb 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> When the hotel opens, will the trail count change too?



The lift count surely will, with the magic carpet from the hotel...


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> The lift count surely will, with the magic carpet from the hotel...



And no doubt the magic carpet will service about four or five trails:
- Upper Hotel Connector
- Lower Hotel Connector
- Hotel Connector Crossover
- Ary's Folly


----------



## River19 (Feb 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And no doubt the magic carpet will service about four or five trails:
> - Upper Hotel Connector
> - Lower Hotel Connector
> - Hotel Connector Crossover
> - Ary's Folly



I expect a lot of yellow snow on Ary's Folly.....


----------



## wtcobb (Feb 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And no doubt the magic carpet will service about four or five trails:
> - Upper Hotel Connector
> - Lower Hotel Connector
> - Hotel Connector Crossover
> - Ary's Folly



Ary's Folly must be top to bottom.


----------



## mister moose (Feb 5, 2016)

I used to ski Burke once in a while, so i read this thread sometimes.  And i got some spiced nuts for Christmas from my niece who lives in Boston.  Just got around to breaking into them... Didn't notice the name at first... the name is... well, see for yourself:







Yup, that's right.  Q's Nuts.  Someone could make some serious cash selling these up there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 5, 2016)

mister moose said:


> Yup, that's right.  Q's Nuts.  Someone could make some serious cash selling these up there.


Why are they so small?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Why are they so small?



Bahaha! Well that coffee just went everywhere!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Why are they so small?



That would explain a lot


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Why are they so small?



Post of the week !   Yep, it even beats Tuna's call for powder.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2016)

Yet another sign that the hotel is opening this weekend.  Joey the Clown.

JOEY THE CLOWN

Sat, Feb. 13, 2016 6:00pm

Gather up the kids and join us for a night of magic, games, dancing, and a family-style dinner buffet in the Governors Ballroom of the Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center.


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 8, 2016)

""JOEY THE CLOWN""

my congrats to all those on this forum who have consciously resisted the opportunity to use the name of this entertainer as fodder for a joke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> ""JOEY THE CLOWN""
> 
> my congrats to all those on this forum who have consciously resisted the opportunity to use the name of this entertainer as fodder for a joke.



It was tempting......


----------



## River19 (Feb 8, 2016)

It's not fair to Joey..........especially to be wrapped up so close to Q-nutts jokes......


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2016)

Burke skied well today.  The snow was firm but very edgeable.  I'm not sure how long it will hold up on the weekend, but it was fine today.

The biggest problem is the lack of snow. They are essentially starting from scratch on non-snowmaking trails.  Coverage wise, it looked like late March.  Even the snowmaking trails are suffering. The Dippers, for example, have a lot of uneven terrain that isn't covered up by sufficient snow.  It makes it harder to keep up speed when every thing underneath is translating through.  

They are NOT expanding terrain for President's week  - at least so far.  They are refreshing existing surfaces.  Snowmaking today was anemic. They have definitely cut back, even if they are still making it.  Instead of the typical 30 guns they are only running 10 or 15.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2016)

Wow, it is a terrible season with very low skier days, and yet they CAN'T even properly run a decent promo:



> Introducing Turn Back Tuesday Lift ticket deal - purchase 1 full day lift ticket at $60.00 and purchase up to an additional 6 full day lift tickets (same day) for just $19.56/piece. Celebrating our 60th year in operation, what better way than to pass on some savings.



I imagine that they get nobody buying this.  The right thing to do to spur traffic would be to sell tickets at $19.56 each.  Not $60.00 for the first (which nobody in their right mind would pay for the Q product right now).  Besides, it is very unlikely that 7 people in a group are going to even show up on a Tuesday.


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 9, 2016)

I am puzzled.  There are lots of signs that point to the opening of a HOTEL at the base of Burke Mountain.  I have heard of (and been party to) soft openings of establishments.  But this is not soft opening.  This is SILENCE.  

WTF-


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 9, 2016)

They will be lucky to sell 7 tickets all day.





thetrailboss said:


> Wow, it is a terrible season with very low skier days, and yet they CAN'T even properly run a decent promo:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine that they get nobody buying this.  The right thing to do to spur traffic would be to sell tickets at $19.56 each.  Besides, it is very unlikely that 7 people in a group are going to even show up on a Tuesday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> They will be lucky to sell 7 tickets all day.



Exactly.  It just shows that Q is too dumb to even do a decent promo.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2016)

The hotel reservation system has been updated yet again.  The earliest a reservation can be booked is now February 21st.

So to recap...
Christmas break: Deadline missed
MLK weekend: Deadline missed
President's Day weekend: Deadline missed

And to add insult to injury, they keep taking reservations and cancelling them.

Heopfully they can at least open the restaurant space so Joey the Clown can make his appearance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The hotel reservation system has been updated yet again.  The earliest a reservation can be booked is now February 21st.
> 
> So to recap...
> Christmas break: Deadline missed
> ...



Considering their inability to even get a decent audience for their acts he'd be better off not even coming.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Considering their inability to even get a decent audience for their acts he'd be better off not even coming.



Funny you mention that.  The Joey the Clown event has been scrubbed from the website.  

And the Valentine's dinner has been moved to the Kingdom Room in the Sherburne Lodge.  I can't think of anything more romantic than Valentine's dinner in a ski area's cafeteria.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Funny you mention that.  The Joey the Clown event has been scrubbed from the website.
> 
> And the Valentine's dinner has been moved to the Kingdom Room in the Sherburne Lodge.  I can't think of anything more romantic than Valentine's dinner in a ski area's cafeteria.



Funny thing is that this is what, the third or fourth move for the Hotel opening, and now nobody cares.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Funny thing is that this is what, the third or fourth move for the Hotel opening, and now nobody cares.



A Q Burke hotel opening delay is getting to be like the sun rising.  We just expect it to happen.

It will be interesting to see what they do now.  I've been hearing rumors for a couple of weeks that they would not open until May.  But then again the hotel sure looks ready to go.  

I've also heard a rumor that there is a specific problem with the hotel itself that has to be remedied.  This could have accounted for the delay.

The only thing we know is that we just don't know.  Ary seems to like it that way.  I just feel badly for the people that have booked rooms for holiday periods that have been left scrambling.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> A Q Burke hotel opening delay is getting to be like the sun rising.  We just expect it to happen.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what they do now.  I've been hearing rumors for a couple of weeks that they would not open until May.  But then again the hotel sure looks ready to go.
> 
> ...



Let's be honest: after the first two delays nobody is now booking rooms.  Anyone who wants to do so is dumb (no offense).  Everyone is looking for them to actually open.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Heopfully they can at least open the restaurant space so Joey the Clown can make his appearance.



Is he related to Joey the Gaper?


----------



## River19 (Feb 10, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Funny you mention that.  The Joey the Clown event has been scrubbed from the website.
> 
> And the Valentine's dinner has been moved to the Kingdom Room in the Sherburne Lodge.  I can't think of anything more romantic than Valentine's dinner in a ski area's cafeteria.



Taking your significant other to a dinner in the basement of the Lodge for V-Day is a serious relationship limiting move.......I would be absolutely bullshit if I booked the Hotel dinner and was swapped to this.....then again I wasn't insane enough to think they would open and/or have their collective crap together to produce a quality evening.

RE: the hotel......WTF?  I mean let's be clear here, we all doubted their December 11th date and leaned towards the "half empty" view knowing this ownership group continues to lower the bar with every opportunity and then fails to step over their lowered bar, but this kind of epic failure wasn't really on my radar personally.  

The Christmas vacation/holiday miss followed quickly by the New Year's miss was sad but not all that surprising......the lack of real snowmaking improvement, disappointing but not that surprising.....Missing MLK weekend.....moving towards a head shaking disaster.......completely missing the President's Day/V-Day Weekend combo after shoving the building full of furniture etc. is a truly surprising epic fail from my perspective.

I mean damn, we knew they were clueless and inept but holy hell it's like they are specifically creating the most amazing "what not to do" business case for schools around the country.  You have to really try hard to be this bad.....


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

......all the state's fault.


----------



## River19 (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> ......all the state's fault.



Clearly....lol


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

It's really odd how the signals are so mixed.  They have definitely made snow on the "trail" that they cut to connect the hotel with High Meadow Pass.  Why would you make snow there if the hotel was not going to open for ski season?  This suggests that they truly anticipate opening by mid-March.  But they have now pushed back reservations until late February, and we all know how little stock to put into their anticipated opening dates. 

At some point the potential summer reservations are going to get skittish.  I don't think that we are at that point yet, but if they keep playing this game into the spring it's a real possibility.  

When it's all said and done, I can't believe that they haven't come up with a way to get the funds in place for the final pieces that are needed to open.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

If they don't open for vacation week, it's not worth even turning the lights on until May 1st.  May 1st soft opening with a few weeks to ramp up staffing and training for Memorial Day weekend.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 10, 2016)

Is Qsenior that leveraged that he can't whip out the checkbook for whatever it's going to take to get the doors opened and the revenue stream flowing? Is it REALLY in the State's interest to further delay the opening and potential tax/fee revenues? Are they really STILL going thru and approving expenses with a fine tooth comb before releasing EB5 payments. Wouldn't one think that they'd be required to pass/fail any paperwork in 30 days? Will we see a lawsuit against the State of VT for the loss of income? From some of the pics posted, it sure looks like the insides are reasonably ready to operate, I'm sure they could function fine without a few knick nacks and furnishings until cash starts to flow. I'd say we are overdue for another VTDigger article of the State of Vermont's side of the story, because obviously Jr isn't going to say what's REALLY going on...


----------



## River19 (Feb 10, 2016)

Regarding the snow trail to the hotel......

My interpretation, given all the ramped up activity and expense we have seen the past few weeks, beds delivered, food trucks etc.

This feels very much like the decision to not open is out of their hands.......like a failed inspection for something etc.  Or a lean from a contractor etc. who knows, but all signs point to this being a surprise to the Qlueless....


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

River19 said:


> This feels very much like the decision to not open is out of their hands.......like a failed inspection for something etc.  Or a lean from a contractor etc. who knows, but all signs point to this being a surprise to the Qlueless....


That would definitely line up with the rumor I heard that a problem with the hotel was discovered that needed to be remedied.  I haven't gone into details, because it's just a rumor, but so far my sources have been spot on.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2016)

Considering the occupancy inspection was late last week and then this delay in opening popped up, the theory that something failed inspection is probably accurate. I know that internally at the mtn, everyone was expecting to be open this weekend.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I know that internally at the mtn, everyone was expecting to be open this weekend.


One week makes a HUGE difference in this case.  They are missing a crucial holiday weekend.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 10, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> One week makes a HUGE difference in this case.  They are missing a crucial holiday weekend.



If it is an inspection fail I wonder if Q would hit the contractor with the lost money.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> If it is an inspection fail I wonder if Q would hit the contractor with the lost money.


The contractor has stated that they have not been paid for their services in a timely manner.  If I were Q, I wouldn't poke too hard at that sleeping dog.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 10, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The contractor has stated that they have not been paid for their services in a timely manner.  If I were Q, I wouldn't poke to hard at that sleeping dog.



Q passes that bitching through to the state


----------



## halfpintvt (Feb 10, 2016)

I don't know why they haven't opened  yet but they passed their State Fire Inspection with flying colors and the Town Zoning Admin issued them a Certificate of Occupancy on Friday.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

It's definitely a head scratcher.  It makes you wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

Who knows... they might open after all.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 10, 2016)

Well they would need people to work and they would need a little time to train them. Anyone seen any employees kick'n around?


----------



## River19 (Feb 10, 2016)

Unless they are conjuring up a hotel and restaurant staff, or importing them on rafts of EB-5 checks any staff will be the usual faces from the area and this will be their 2nd or 3rd gig.  As it is unlikely that premier hospitality talent in Northern New England would be unemployed this late into the Ski season.

But WTF do I know, I just know many of the usual faces that work the local restaurants, stores etc.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Well they would need people to work and they would need a little time to train them. Anyone seen any employees kick'n around?



Not at Burke.  Nobody will work for Q.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Not at Burke.  Nobody will work for Q.



this is silly. I have been  to Burke twice this year and have noticed zero issues with staffing, grooming, instructor presence, etc. Stop making up mud, there is plenty to actually be critical of at Burke, but last I checked it was people running the place not machines.

 where do you live again????


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this is silly. I have been  to Burke twice this year and have noticed zero issues with staffing, grooming, instructor presence, etc. Stop making up mud, there is plenty to actually be critical of at Burke, but last I checked it was people running the place not machines.
> 
> where do you live again????



You're right.  Reading comprehension and context are so overrated.  Had you actually read the conversation, instead of just dropping an insult, you would have seen that the discussion was on the Hotel and if it would open or not.  So grooming, instructor presence, etc. have nothing to do with that.  And besides, it's pretty well known that almost all of their experienced staff in those areas left and that they are pretty shortstaffed all around.  If you have any understanding that is different from ours (based upon conversations with folks and the fact that there have been many, many want ads for some time for help) than let us know. 

As to the comment about my address, pretty lame.  I spent four days up there in October and another three in December.  I also am going to be up there for a week shortly.  And there is this thing called Email.  So yes, I am pretty tuned into what is going on up there.  

On my next visit I will be sure to conduct a count for you.  :roll:


----------



## Boardguy (Feb 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the comment about my address, pretty lame.  I spent four days up there in October and another three in December.  I also am going to be up there for a week shortly.



So after 632 pages we finally get to the real "big Burke announcement" - You are going to grace the NEK with a visit. The excitement up there must be palpable. I hope I am in town so I don't miss the parade. Context is context you said nobody will work for Q but as BWD noted people indeed do at the other mountain departments. So you are saying no one will ever work for Q at the hotel? Huh have to stay tuned for that outcome. I'm thinking that eventually the hotel will open and people will be working there. Hopefully sooner than later.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 12, 2016)

Boardguy said:


> *I'm thinking that eventually the hotel will open and people will be working there.*



I'm thinking you're right.

I'm also thinking the hotel will be underfunded, highly vacant, and in shocking disrepair in fewer years than anyone might currently expect.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2016)

Another happy Q Burke customer posted on Facebook that Q Burke shouldn't take reservations for the hotel when they can't actually open.  The customer posted this after Q Burke responded:

No, I don't understand. Because you weren't truthful with us until 2 days ago, there are no ski resorts available for a family of 5 within 3 hours of my location that isn't 2x the cost of yours. I am not interested in paying $4000 at Smugglers Notch. It is very difficult to plan a vacation at any resort for 2 adults and 3 teenage children. We are required to stay in 2 rooms or a 2/3 bedroom suite which increases the cost of our trips. Your hotel was a perfect fit for all our needs. We are traveling 3+ hours away and I explained in DECEMBER when you cancelled our Christmas vacation trip that Jay was too far and a hotel would not work for us because one family member does not ski due to a long term injury. I was assured by your staff that your hotel would be ready by February vacation. I was agreeable to having our reservation moved. You kept my $1000 deposit and I did not book at another resort nor did I cancel within the last month because of your harsh cancellation policy. You have no right to do this to people who work hard for their money and plan well in advance. Something is very very wrong with how this hotel is being managed.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 12, 2016)

wow so they are keeping deposits and penalizing for cancellations???

I guess after 158 pages, I shouldn't be surprised by this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> wow so they are keeping deposits and penalizing for cancellations???
> 
> I guess after 158 pages, I shouldn't be surprised by this.



I don't think that they are penalizing for their own cancellations.  But they don't cancel until the last minute. That's not good for the customer when it's a holiday week.  


.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 12, 2016)

That facebook post has confirmed for me that I will never ever stay at the QBurke hotel. I am skiing there in 2 weeks but only for one day and with free tix from the WM movie. I will spend no money there at all. I will bring my own food and beverages and eat in the basement where they stick brown baggers like me and my family.


----------



## River19 (Feb 12, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Another happy Q Burke customer posted on Facebook that Q Burke shouldn't take reservations for the hotel when they can't actually open.  The customer posted this after Q Burke responded:
> 
> No, I don't understand. Because you weren't truthful with us until 2 days ago, there are no ski resorts available for a family of 5 within 3 hours of my location that isn't 2x the cost of yours. I am not interested in paying $4000 at Smugglers Notch. It is very difficult to plan a vacation at any resort for 2 adults and 3 teenage children. We are required to stay in 2 rooms or a 2/3 bedroom suite which increases the cost of our trips. Your hotel was a perfect fit for all our needs. We are traveling 3+ hours away and I explained in DECEMBER when you cancelled our Christmas vacation trip that Jay was too far and a hotel would not work for us because one family member does not ski due to a long term injury. I was assured by your staff that your hotel would be ready by February vacation. I was agreeable to having our reservation moved. You kept my $1000 deposit and I did not book at another resort nor did I cancel within the last month because of your harsh cancellation policy. You have no right to do this to people who work hard for their money and plan well in advance. Something is very very wrong with how this hotel is being managed.



that is one of the biggest shit sandwiches I have heard someone being served......what a huge buzzkill and a huge pile of crap for a ruined family vacation.

Good job Ary, go kick their dog while you are at it you clueless insensitive prick.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 12, 2016)

On some level this has to be theft right?


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 12, 2016)

they certainly wasted no time getting this off the facebook page.  I feel for this family, but let us not forget that there are employees who have been on standby since December.  I know people who were asked to change jobs from the mtn company to the hotel who have been without work for many weeks.  This is not simply f'ing with some peoples' vacations, this is seriously messing up peoples lives in an area that is economically very depressed.  The way the Q family is handling this is unconscionable and dumb.  And the silence?  arrogance and stupidity.  There is something going on that they could share with the community so as to help folks plan.  The statement reads something like  "we are being help up by XYZ.  This is taking us a while to work out and we feel badly that it has displaced our guests and our employees.  Are are doing zzz to try and cure the problem and will keep you posted.  In the meantime we have all of the hotel staff in training and helping out in order to honor our commitment to them and in order to be ready the minute we sort out this administrative issue."

Do not hold your breath for that statement.




VTKilarney said:


> Another happy Q Burke customer posted on Facebook that Q Burke shouldn't take reservations for the hotel when they can't actually open.  The customer posted this after Q Burke responded:
> 
> No, I don't understand. Because you weren't truthful with us until 2 days ago, there are no ski resorts available for a family of 5 within 3 hours of my location that isn't 2x the cost of yours. I am not interested in paying $4000 at Smugglers Notch. It is very difficult to plan a vacation at any resort for 2 adults and 3 teenage children. We are required to stay in 2 rooms or a 2/3 bedroom suite which increases the cost of our trips. Your hotel was a perfect fit for all our needs. We are traveling 3+ hours away and I explained in DECEMBER when you cancelled our Christmas vacation trip that Jay was too far and a hotel would not work for us because one family member does not ski due to a long term injury. I was assured by your staff that your hotel would be ready by February vacation. I was agreeable to having our reservation moved. You kept my $1000 deposit and I did not book at another resort nor did I cancel within the last month because of your harsh cancellation policy. You have no right to do this to people who work hard for their money and plan well in advance. Something is very very wrong with how this hotel is being managed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> they certainly wasted no time getting this off the facebook page.


It's still there.  It's under "Visitor Posts" on the left hand side.  It's not on their main wall.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2016)

Ary's cell phone is at it again!





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153978996958023
			




It's like some sort of creepy stalker video.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary's cell phone is at it again!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw that.  Weird.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2016)

Boardguy said:


> So after 632 pages we finally get to the real "big Burke announcement" - You are going to grace the NEK with a visit. The excitement up there must be palpable. I hope I am in town so I don't miss the parade.



Hate to destroy your punchline, but I am not the one who started this thread.  That was the original trailboss.

As to the other point, you're right.  As a native of the NEK I have a lot of family and friends there and I am looking forward to seeing them.  We have a good time despite Q and his stupidity.  



> Context is context you said nobody will work for Q but as BWD noted people indeed do at the other mountain departments. So you are saying no one will ever work for Q at the hotel? Huh have to stay tuned for that outcome. I'm thinking that eventually the hotel will open and people will be working there. Hopefully sooner than later.



The larger point is that locals will not work for him.  Yes, some do, but the folks who were the best employees and made Burke special have left or were fired.  From what I have seen firsthand and what others have described is a steady stream of folks coming and going at all levels.  That is not sustainable.  

As to the Hotel specifically, oldtimer said he knows some folks who are on standby to work there.  I would imagine that what will eventually happen is that they will import foreign workers on work visas to fill the gaps.  That idea was mentioned several hundred posts back.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2016)

River19 said:


> that is one of the biggest shit sandwiches I have heard someone being served......what a huge buzzkill and a huge pile of crap for a ruined family vacation.
> 
> Good job Ary, go kick their dog while you are at it you clueless insensitive prick.



This is quite disturbing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 12, 2016)

there are no more than 12 people in that video.  3 of which appear to be employees (assuming there is a single person running the lift).


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2016)

FWIW I am not seeing that woman's post anymore......


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 12, 2016)

Ary likely deleted it


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## VTKilarney (Feb 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Ary likely deleted it



Odd. I'm still seeing it. It's in the Visitor Posts section. It is the post that was started by Rosemary Gracia. You need to click on Burke's reply and then click once more to see her response.  

It doesn't show up in the mobile app, I think.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Odd. I'm still seeing it. It's in the Visitor Posts section. It is the post that was started by Rosemary Gracia. You need to click on Burke's reply and then click once more to see her response.
> 
> It doesn't show up in the mobile app, I think.



Ah, OK.  I see it now.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

The Caledonian Record has an article in today's paper about the hotel.  The opening has been delayed because the contractor won't release the certificates of occupancy until he gets paid.  He says that he is owed "millions."

It looks Iike EB-5 fundraising is not as easy as it used to be.  The Commissioner of Vermont's Department of Finance, who is holding the EB-5 money in escrow, wrote to Stenger, “...the escrow account does not have nearly enough money to even cover the amounts we did authorize, much less the [redacted] you are claiming in your letter. Any delays in opening are attributable to your lack of capital, not the escrow authorization process.”


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## mbedle (Feb 13, 2016)

Did you happen to read the article about the 2nd jay peak employee charged with embezzlement?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Did you happen to read the article about the 2nd jay peak employee charged with embezzlement?



I missed that. Was it in today's paper?


.


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## mbedle (Feb 13, 2016)

This was online - It was the first article under "News" title was Orleans Criminal Court 2nd Jay Peak Employee Charged with Embezzlement.


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## mbedle (Feb 13, 2016)

It looks it was small dollar stuff - 40K from the pump house.


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## River19 (Feb 13, 2016)

Holy shit....sounds like that contractor may own a hotel soon....lol

Wow is that embarrassing as heck for Q and Stenger.  So all of our speculation on the $ situation is finally coming out a bit.......

I'm popping popcorn for this one........


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> Holy shit....sounds like that contractor may own a hotel soon....lol
> 
> Wow is that embarrassing as heck for Q and Stenger.  So all of our speculation on the $ situation is finally coming out a bit.......
> 
> I'm popping popcorn for this one........



Well, we've been surmising that EB-5 fundraising has been very difficult.  This article backs that up unless the project went over budget.  But, IMHO, the budget was inflated to begin with.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

Yow have to love today's snow report.

Trails open: 18 of 50
Groomed trails:18 of 36

No snowmaking in the past 24 hours.  I wonder if they are done.


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## River19 (Feb 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, we've been surmising that EB-5 fundraising has been very difficult.  This article backs that up unless the project went over budget.  But, IMHO, the budget was inflated to begin with.
> 
> 
> .



Well something isn't adding up, a supposed $55M hotel, that was fully funded and we believe the $55M was inflated by all accounts, suddenly they don't have near enough to pay off the contractor for the hotel?  That thing couldn't possibly have gone over $55M without something fishy happening......like over paying for land already owned by Q etc.  We all know the State account couldn't have been drained by mountain ops and snow making equipment as they clearly said there was separation of church and state on that.

So how could they have gone from fully funded to bust?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> So how could they have gone from fully funded to bust?


Why are you assuming that they were fully funded?  When they broke ground they were far from fully funded.  



.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2016)

I think this shows that they weren't fully funded.


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## River19 (Feb 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Why are you assuming that they were fully funded?  When they broke ground they were far from fully funded.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I recall Stenger et al saying the hotel was fully funded and they were raising funds for all the other shit like the tennis center etc

Maybe I misremember their bullshit as there has been so much


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 13, 2016)

_EB-5 is a wonderful program that is funded by foreigners, not American citizens.  It's free money, how could anything go wrong?  _

[/summation of 99% of people's opinion when I joined this board 5 years ago]


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> I recall Stenger et al saying the hotel was fully funded and they were raising funds for all the other shit like the tennis center etc
> 
> Maybe I misremember their bullshit as there has been so much



Right. It's called they needed more money. Just say it's for Phase II when it's really for Phase I. 




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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 13, 2016)

> "the escrow account does not have nearly enough money to even cover the  amounts we did authorize, much less the [redacted] you are claiming in  your letter. Any delays in opening are attributable to your lack of  capital, not the escrow authorization process."



Well there... there is the answer to what the hold up is to the opening. Pay the contractor, and you get to open... seems pretty cut and dried.


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## Smellytele (Feb 13, 2016)

MASSskier where are you... you...you...you?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> MASSskier where are you... you...you...you?



He's probably in therapy.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> MASSskier where are you... you...you...you?



This is where:




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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2016)

Who else thinks that this will be the next expose piece on VTDigger?  

Please stop this insanity.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *Who else thinks that this will be the next expose piece on VTDigger?  *



As the sole member of AZ that has been most correct regarding these issues en toto, I stand behind my long-ago and (extremely) bold prediction that this will end with *FEDERAL* indictments. 

 Might take several more years, but I'm not jumping ship on that prediction yet.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2016)

mbedle said:


> This was online - It was the first article under "News" title was Orleans Criminal Court 2nd Jay Peak Employee Charged with Embezzlement.



Unfortunately Vermont has a serious problem with embezzlers.


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## Smellytele (Feb 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Unfortunately Vermont has a serious problem with embezzlers.



Pay is low - taxes are high. Hard to get by.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2016)

Mid Burke Express is delayed. It's not that windy out there, is it?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 14, 2016)

Wildcat has upper mountain lifts delayed today because of the cold weather. So, that might be the reason.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Wildcat has upper mountain lifts delayed today because of the cold weather. So, that might be the reason.



That makes more sense.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Who else thinks that this will be the next expose piece on VTDigger?
> 
> Please stop this insanity.



Can't believe they haven't already...

Makes ya wonder how many big $ deposits they are trying to stay sitting on for hotel reservations, after what that woman posted in her review.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2016)

Lifts are open by nobody seems to care.  Just when they needed it the most.  What a rough year.  




.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Unfortunately Vermont has a serious problem with embezzlers.



Exactly!


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Mid Burke Express is delayed. It's not that windy out there, is it?




My flag has been flapping pretty good all morning. I'd be willing to bet the breeze was a bit stronger at the top of the Poma.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> My flag has been flapping pretty good all morning. I'd be willing to bet the breeze was a bit stronger at the top of the Poma.



They just can't catch a break with holiday weekends this year.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They just can't catch a break with holiday weekends this year.
> 
> 
> .



Qarma is a bitch


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## whitemtn27 (Feb 14, 2016)

Wow, I just checked in for the first time since the holidays, and I can't believe this thread is still going!  Makes for some entertaining reading even if it's kinda sad.  I am kinda floored by the EB-5 situation (although reading through this, you can see it coming a mile away).  Does the hotel situation roughly boil down to this, or am I reading it wrong?


BUILDING INSPECTOR: Here's your certificate of occupancy.

GENERAL CONTRACTOR:  _(to Ary)_ Since you have repeatedly paid me either late or not at all, I'm gonna hang onto this until your final check clears. _(holds out hand)_

QUIROS, STENGER, AND COMPANY:  Umm... we can't pay you because the mean old government won't release the EB-5 funds!  Stupid government!  We would gladly pay you the money that we totally have and are not lying about if only they would let us!

_(to GOVERNMENT, loudly, offscreen)_  Hey evil big government, we demand you release our money so we can pay our contractor, who has only not been paid due to your cumbersome regulations and definitely not because we committed fraud.

GOVERNMENT:  LOL you owe them how much?  You should like, find a bank account that has that much in it because yours doesn't.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 14, 2016)

You got it


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## River19 (Feb 14, 2016)

Sounds about right.......


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## zeke (Feb 14, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Pay is low - taxes are high. Hard to get by.



Vote Bernie??


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## Smellytele (Feb 14, 2016)

zeke said:


> Vote Bernie??



Feel the Bern!


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## ss20 (Feb 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> _EB-5 is a wonderful program that is funded by foreigners, not American citizens.  It's free money, how could anything go wrong?  _
> 
> [/summation of 99% of people's opinion when I joined this board 5 years ago]



When done right, yes, it works like you said pain-free.  Mount Snow's EB-5 funded West Lakes is nearing completion, and the Carinthia EB-5 is all funded for.

Management and idiocy may be to blame for other, more northern projects...


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 14, 2016)

I'll be skiing at Burke tomorrow if anyone wants to make a few runs.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2016)

ss20 said:


> When done right, yes, it works like you said pain-free.  Mount Snow's EB-5 funded West Lakes is nearing completion, and the Carinthia EB-5 is all funded for.
> 
> Management and idiocy may be to blame for other, more northern projects...



Correct on both. 


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## River19 (Feb 15, 2016)

So, here we are with a lovely building that by all accounts could be opened today should someone be able to pay off the "lien" the contractor has on the property since he hasn't gotten paid fr completed work.

If in fact the State of VT is correct and the amount owed is much greater than the amount in the escrow account, no one other than Q and Stenger can be on the hook as the responsible parties.  Meaning, the decisions and poor management from which this situation resulted can only be traced back to Q with an assist possibly from Stenger.

So where can they go from here?

Ski season was an epic failure hotel or no hotel.  Sure it sucked for all mountains in New England for the most part, but this would have been a mess regardless based on the latest set of news.

Would love a VTdigger article.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2016)

It will be interesting to see what happens at this point.  There is no point in opening the hotel for ski season.  They should have a soft opening before the peak summer season, but you have to wonder if they have the funds to do that.


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## burski (Feb 15, 2016)

VT State police reporting a death on Burke ski slopes today (saw on Twitter) - what were conditions?  Not sure if this is true, can anyone confirm - I hope no one can?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 15, 2016)

burski said:


> VT State police reporting a death on Burke ski slopes today (saw on Twitter) - what were conditions?  Not sure if this is true, can anyone confirm - I hope no one can?



LSC News 7 is reporting the same.



> Vermont State Police say Shirinian Varter, 58, of Watertown, MA was skiing down the Big Dipper Trail at Burke Mountain Ski Resort at about 3:40 p.m. today when he lost control and crashed into a tree. According to police, Varter was pronounced dead at the scene.


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## River19 (Feb 15, 2016)

That just friggin' sucks.

How were the conditions?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2016)

The edges of the Dippers really need snow.  They haven't been that careful about putting poles in front of trouble spots along the edges.  Hopefully this wasn't something that could have been avoided.  It's scary when it hits this close to home.  Poor guy.  I feel badly for his family.


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## Keelhauled (Feb 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's scary when it hits this close to home.  Poor guy.  I feel badly for his family.



The single worst memory I have of skiing was riding up the Vista Quad one night at Bolton Valley listening to a guy scream into the dark for someone to get help for his buddy.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2016)

From WPTZ: 
"Authorities said Varter was not wearing a helmet."

I'm not sure if it would have made a difference, but you hate to wonder.  


.


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## oldtimer (Feb 15, 2016)

The skiing and grooming on dipper was excellent today. No real gotchas in the place he went off the trail. Certainly not an abundance of snow over there but the same as every other trail in new England right now. Say a prayer for him,  his family, and the guy who performed cpr forever until ski patrol came,  even though the outcome was obvious.


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## mriceyman (Feb 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> The skiing and grooming on dipper was excellent today. No real gotchas in the place he went off the trail. Certainly not an abundance of snow over there but the same as every other trail in new England right now. Say a prayer for him,  his family, and the guy who performed cpr forever until ski patrol came,  even though the outcome was obvious.



Damm that sucks 


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## yeggous (Feb 15, 2016)

Keelhauled said:


> The single worst memory I have of skiing was riding up the Vista Quad one night at Bolton Valley listening to a guy scream into the dark for someone to get help for his buddy.



I've been at the mountain twice when someone died -- once at Crotched and one at Wildcat. Only once did I see the guy down. Neither time did I see it happen.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## chuckstah (Feb 15, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I've been at the mountain twice when someone died -- once at Crotched and one at Wildcat. Only once did I see the guy down. Neither time did I see it happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Sadly, I've been at the mountain for four deaths, twice last season.  Within a few days last year I saw the aftermath of a tree hit at K, and a skier at SR on Black Hole , moments after impact with, once again a tree.  Even worse was a collision at K, quite a few  years ago, on Double Dipper I believe, where both skiers didn't make it.  I was shaking watching a cat bring down the victims.  Still can't get this one out of my memory.  Be safe all.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 16, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> The skiing and grooming on dipper was excellent today. No real gotchas in the place he went off the trail. Certainly not an abundance of snow over there but the same as every other trail in new England right now.



I agree completely with this. The conditions were quite good. There were the usual icy spots starting to show up later in the day in the usual places (e.g. the steep section below the first toll road crossing). But it skied quite well, even with my rather dull skis. I didn't see the actual location where he died. I did see the ambulance and the Paramedic SUV and was hopeful that it wasn't a bad injury. Unfortunately, that was not the case .


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The edges of the Dippers really need snow.  They haven't been that careful about putting poles in front of trouble spots along the edges.  Hopefully this wasn't something that could have been avoided.



The edges of all the trails in New England need more snow along the edges. And I didn't see any "trouble spots" that would have needed bamboo sticks.


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## River19 (Feb 16, 2016)

Sounds like a straight up unfortunate accident.

Thoughts are with his family and friends.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 16, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The edges of all the trails in New England need more snow along the edges. And I didn't see any "trouble spots" that would have needed bamboo sticks.



Very true. Several trails at Attitash yesterday did not have edge to edge coverage.  

Years like this one, skiers need to be prudent both on and off trail.  The conditions out there now are typical of late December, not late February.

Condolences to the skiers family and friends.  Sad reality of our sport. It is not without danger


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 16, 2016)

I never meantioned this in the Cannon thread but a skier died last weekend by crashing in the trees on Paulys.


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## JDMRoma (Feb 16, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I never meantioned this in the Cannon thread but a skier died last weekend by crashing in the trees on Paulys.



We saw someone in a high speed snow plow out of control on Saturday. He should have been in Tuckerbrook !!
We were just coming off Zoomer lift and he was flying by !! Scary sight !


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## VTKilarney (Feb 16, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The edges of all the trails in New England need more snow along the edges. And I didn't see any "trouble spots" that would have needed bamboo sticks.


The spot I was thinking of is just above the shelter.  I pointed it out earlier this season.  But it doesn't sound like this was a factor.


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## xwhaler (Feb 16, 2016)

Burke reporting 5" this AM. Hope someone on here skis it, has a good time, and injects some positive thoughts into this sad thread.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 16, 2016)

And the hotel will be hosting a wedding show this weekend!  The contractor apparently made a concession.

See... good news!


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## River19 (Feb 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And the hotel will be hosting a wedding show this weekend!  The contractor apparently made a concession.
> 
> See... good news!



I'm still waiting for the concession being "the newly opened Peak Hotel at Burke Mountain".......


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## xwhaler (Feb 16, 2016)

Burke opened Sasquatch glade today---you guys gonna go hit it?   Let us know how it skis


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## folledeski (Feb 16, 2016)

Difficult conditions up top today.  Firm groomers and very grabby, heavy snow on the ungroomed.  Be careful out there.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And the hotel will be hosting a wedding show this weekend!  The contractor apparently made a concession.
> 
> See... good news!



Yeah if that were happening they would be crowing from the rafters.  Since they are being mum I think that means that they are not out of the woods yet.  

And I think this will be the last job that Peak does for Q.  I see that he has an icon on the snow report.  No doubt that they gave that to him as payment.


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## River19 (Feb 17, 2016)

As a side note;

I was flipping through the Q FB page yesterday and I found it a little odd there was no acknowledgment whatsoever about the death on their hill.  No "our thoughts are with the family and friends etc." just "shred crust on dust" cheerleader bro bullshit.....

I'm not sure what normal protocol is for ski areas after a tragedy hits their slopes, but it feels like it would be a nice moment to show some class and respect, express your condolences, and hold off on the pom pom waving shredding shit for 24hrs or so.

I'm not saying for them to post something that could get them in trouble should they face a lawsuit, but some simple expression of the human condition might be nice......

Am I crazy (specifically for this)?


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm not sure that I've ever heard of a ski area doing something like that. Most likely due to lawsuit implications. Even if it something very benign, lawyers can often twist it to their advantage.

However, during likely the worst season on record, continuing to add more coverage outside of the already ubiquitous news stories about the death would likely not help attract business.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 17, 2016)

I don't really blame them as far as Facebook is concerned.  What happened was a tragedy, but I don't think that Facebook is the place to address it.  A short press release expressing sympathy to the family for the accident would have been appropriate.  I have seen other ski areas do that in the past.  The press release can be easily structured in a way that avoids liability down the road.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 17, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't really blame them as far as Facebook is concerned.  What happened was a tragedy, but I don't think that Facebook is the place to address it.  A short press release expressing sympathy to the family for the accident would have been appropriate.  I have seen other ski areas do that in the past.  The press release can be easily structured in a way that avoids liability down the road.


Agreed. Facebook is not the place. A static press release, that people can't comment on, would be a better approach.


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## River19 (Feb 17, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Agreed. Facebook is not the place. A static press release, that people can't comment on, would be a better approach.



I don't disagree that FB may not be the place for the statement per se, but I WOULD expect a period of no "Shred with us" BS as well.....

Maybe I expect a little more class from organizations


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## medfordmike (Feb 17, 2016)

Hello folks I am looking for some advice. I was considering going to Burke on Friday.  Every place took it on the chin yesterday but after reading some of the posts on this thread I am concerned that the mountain will not be able to recover well enough by Friday to make the day trip worth it. I am coming up from the Boston area so I am thinking I should set my sights on Cannon or hit my home hill to get some more use out of my pass.  I don't expect miracles from their mountain ops folks but the lift count had crept up to a reasonable number pre storm.  Some places can recover better than others but I have my doubts about Burke based on a number of posts.  I have never been to Burke and it was on my to do list this year along with Bolton but my timing never aligns with what little good conditions either have had this tough season.

Thanks for any advice you folks can provide.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 17, 2016)

Burke is a great mountain when they have sufficient natural snow.  But it suffers when they have to rely on man-made snow.  Right now they have 15 trails open, many of which are located at the beginner pod.  

Burke isn't going to recover by making snow.  They just can't make enough of it.  But they recovered much better than I expected after the last rain event.  My suspicion is that they recovered because they have very low skier traffic.  The groomers were able to do their thing without the trails getting skied off an hour after the fact.

Bottom line: I think that the conditions will be skiable, but the terrain will be very limited.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2016)

As to the comment about the death, Facebook would not be an appropriate outlet, especially for Q.  I say that because he has open created hostility with his customers (many who post on FB) and this would give them reason to comment/make a bad scene.

A few of the bigger, more savvy resorts who have good marketing departments (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Killington, etc.) would probably issue a standard vanilla press release that just states the bare minimal facts as to the name of the person, time of the incident, and that there is an investigation pending.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2016)

medfordmike said:


> Hello folks I am looking for some advice. I was considering going to Burke on Friday.  Every place took it on the chin yesterday but after reading some of the posts on this thread I am concerned that the mountain will not be able to recover well enough by Friday to make the day trip worth it. I am coming up from the Boston area so I am thinking I should set my sights on Cannon or hit my home hill to get some more use out of my pass.  I don't expect miracles from their mountain ops folks but the lift count had crept up to a reasonable number pre storm.  Some places can recover better than others but I have my doubts about Burke based on a number of posts.  I have never been to Burke and it was on my to do list this year along with Bolton but my timing never aligns with what little good conditions either have had this tough season.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you folks can provide.



Certainly try Burke when the snow is good.  The terrain is great when there is snow.  No crowds.  

Hope that things improve by next week when I am in the area.


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## River19 (Feb 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the comment about the death, Facebook would not be an appropriate outlet, especially for Q.  I say that because he has open created hostility with his customers (many who post on FB) and this would give them reason to comment/make a bad scene.
> 
> A few of the bigger, more savvy resorts who have good marketing departments (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Killington, etc.) would probably issue a standard vanilla press release that just states the bare minimal facts as to the name of the person, time of the incident, and that there is an investigation pending.



I agree, as I said above, I think I was more put off at the "business as usual.....come shred with us" stuff than I was the lack of mention of it on FB.  It just seemed in poor taste.  But not surprising I guess given who we are dealing with.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2016)

River19 said:


> I agree, as I said above, I think I was more put off at the "business as usual.....come shred with us" stuff than I was the lack of mention of it on FB.  It just seemed in poor taste.  But not surprising I guess given who we are dealing with.



Agreed.  You made me go to their FB page and the comment about "shred that dust on crust" was ridiculous to say the least.

FB can be a cheap and effective marketing tool.  Compare what Q has done to what they have done at Tenney.


----------



## medfordmike (Feb 17, 2016)

Thanks thetrailboss and VTKilarney I guess Burke will remain on  my to do list a bit longer.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the comment about the death, Facebook would not be an appropriate outlet, especially for Q.  I say that because he has open created hostility with his customers (many who post on FB) and this would give them reason to comment/make a bad scene.
> 
> A few of the bigger, more savvy resorts who have good marketing departments (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Killington, etc.) would probably issue a standard vanilla press release that just states the bare minimal facts as to the name of the person, time of the incident, and that there is an investigation pending.



I think he gets scrutinized because he is such an asshat. I don't recall Win ever doing anything like that after a death but that's because no one doubts whether his heart is in the right place. It's sad that we even have to ask that question about this schmuck


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 17, 2016)

MadMadWorld said:


> I think he gets scrutinized because he is such an asshat. I don't recall Win ever doing anything like that after a death but that's because no one doubts whether his heart is in the right place. It's sad that we even have to ask that question about this schmuck



Absolutely.


----------



## Viv Buckley (Feb 18, 2016)

medfordmike said:


> Hello folks I am looking for some advice. I was considering going to Burke on Friday.  Every place took it on the chin yesterday but after reading some of the posts on this thread I am concerned that the mountain will not be able to recover well enough by Friday to make the day trip worth it. I am coming up from the Boston area so I am thinking I should set my sights on Cannon or hit my home hill to get some more use out of my pass.  I don't expect miracles from their mountain ops folks but the lift count had crept up to a reasonable number pre storm.  Some places can recover better than others but I have my doubts about Burke based on a number of posts.  I have never been to Burke and it was on my to do list this year along with Bolton but my timing never aligns with what little good conditions either have had this tough season.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you folks can provide.



I would definitely recommend visiting Burke when conditions are good (not now).  It is a super fun mountain with a great vibe and not crowded.  They did a great job getting coverage for last weekend but definitely suffered a blow with the rain.  Folks were having fun on Monday, the groomers were great and as others have said we are enjoying what we've got.  BUT I would not recommend a day trip from Boston Friday if you have other options and are still having fun at your home mountain.  I just drove by Cannon yesterday and it looked good, was thinking of going there myself tomorrow.  The positive would be that because Burke is not crowded there is still good snow at the end of the day, especially if you are comfortable skiing the edges.


----------



## xwhaler (Feb 18, 2016)

Looks like Burke is making snow this AM on Upper/Lower Warren's Way. Good for QBurke for continuing to make snow this late into February.
Hopefully they can capture some Quebec school vaca week traffic. I see they are running some promos on their site for them.


----------



## Viv Buckley (Feb 18, 2016)

Not surprised, actually.  Funny thing is that they couldn't make snow way back when it was cold in December because they didn't have water.  So maybe they've still got some "budget" left?  The training hill (Warren's Way) does need it, though.  Still a few races to run.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2016)

Nice to see that they are making snow.  I wasn't sure if they would.  Their man-made bases are not deep at all, so I am glad to see them doing what they can do.

The water issues only affected snowmaking for a day or two.  So I doubt that they had much of an impact on the overall snowmaking budget.

In order to attract Quebec residents, they really need to get the hotel open.  There isn't that much French being spoken on the hill during Quebec vacation week - especially compared to Jay Peak.  Hopefully the hotel will rectify that problem.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 18, 2016)

I got to check out the hotel today. It is really nice in there. The day lodge section is going to be sweet. Driving around the looping driveway makes you feel like you really are on the side of a mountain. 
Once the hotel finally opens, take a look around the coffee shop. :grin:


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I got to check out the hotel today. It is really nice in there. The day lodge section is going to be sweet. Driving around the looping driveway makes you feel like you really are on the side of a mountain.
> Once the hotel finally opens, take a look around the coffee shop. :grin:



So........is it going to open soon or not?


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 18, 2016)

Nice shameless plug.   I bought a pair of your framed prints from Fine Art America a couple of week's ago for the wife's b'day.  HUGE (did I say HUGE) success.  thanks  (btw-  they are easy to work with and did a good job both with the printing and fulfilling the order)



from_the_NEK said:


> I got to check out the hotel today. It is really nice in there. The day lodge section is going to be sweet. Driving around the looping driveway makes you feel like you really are on the side of a mountain.
> Once the hotel finally opens, take a look around the coffee shop. :grin:


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 18, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Nice shameless plug.   I bought a pair of your framed prints from Fine Art America a couple of week's ago for the wife's b'day.  HUGE (did I say HUGE) success.  thanks  (btw-  they are easy to work with and did a good job both with the printing and fulfilling the order)



Did you get a special AZ discount ?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 18, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Nice shameless plug.   I bought a pair of your framed prints from Fine Art America a couple of week's ago for the wife's b'day.  HUGE (did I say HUGE) success.  thanks  (btw-  they are easy to work with and did a good job both with the printing and fulfilling the order)



Awesome! I'm always curious as to who buys my work. I'm glad you (and your wife) liked them.



fbrissette said:


> Did you get a special AZ discount ?


Seriously, I can create a discount code to get AZ'rs a few $ off if you plan on ordering something. :-D


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So........is it going to open soon or not?



I'm not sure anyone really knows at this point. It is week to week.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm not sure anyone really knows at this point. It is week to week.



Reservations have been pushed back another week.  But that's become a weekly occurrence.


----------



## River19 (Feb 18, 2016)

Maybe they will run a mud season special...........


----------



## WoodCore (Feb 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> Maybe they will run a mud season special...........



That's not that bad of an idea. Lure a couple Qtourist in with super cheap rates and use it as an opportunity to Qtrain your Qstaff.


----------



## medfordmike (Feb 18, 2016)

Viv Buckley said:


> I would definitely recommend visiting Burke when conditions are good (not now).  It is a super fun mountain with a great vibe and not crowded.  They did a great job getting coverage for last weekend but definitely suffered a blow with the rain.  Folks were having fun on Monday, the groomers were great and as others have said we are enjoying what we've got.  BUT I would not recommend a day trip from Boston Friday if you have other options and are still having fun at your home mountain.  I just drove by Cannon yesterday and it looked good, was thinking of going there myself tomorrow.  The positive would be that because Burke is not crowded there is still good snow at the end of the day, especially if you are comfortable skiing the edges.



Thanks Viv, based on folks comments I am going to hit Cannon tomorrow.  I think I would like Burke, what you describe is why I make Pico my home mountain. I will make the extra drive some other time when I can better experience Burke.


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## yeggous (Feb 19, 2016)

Will be there on Sunday if anyone wants to make some turns. Can anyone suggest a place to eat on Saturday night?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Will be there on Sunday if anyone wants to make some turns. Can anyone suggest a place to eat on Saturday night?



In Burke or on the way up?


.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In Burke or on the way up?
> 
> 
> .



Staying in Lyndon and coming from Ragged. Anywhere in that area.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2016)

Schillings in Littleton, NH is great.  We ate there just last night.  

The Kingdom Tap Room in St. Johnsbury has a great selection of beer, but we have found the food to be hit or miss.  




.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 19, 2016)

I hear good reviews for the Foggy Goggle in Burke.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## faQ (Feb 19, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Will be there on Sunday if anyone wants to make some turns. Can anyone suggest a place to eat on Saturday night?



Sweet Basil Cafe in Lyndonville


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I hear good reviews for the Foggy Goggle in Burke.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I was there last night and it was really good.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 20, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I was there last night and it was really good.




Same here !


----------



## River19 (Feb 20, 2016)

The Burke Publick House
Foggy Goggle
Kingdom Tap Room
Schillings in NH
Pizza Man in Lyndonville basic grub and a beer

All good......


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## thetrailboss (Feb 20, 2016)

Don't go to the QTamarack


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

We ended up at the Foggy Goggle. They only had a small table in the bar left. It was a nice place. Menu was an interesting assortment. The waitress hyped up my dish a bit too much, but I left happy.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

The TamaraQ is closed for lunch? Really?


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2016)

I guess Ary didn't get the memo that it is NH & VT school vacation week


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 21, 2016)

...and Maine


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I guess Ary didn't get the memo that it is NH & VT school vacation week



That's EXACTLY why he is not open.  He does not like the heathens...err...locals.


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's EXACTLY why he is not open.  He does not like the heathens...err...locals.



How can that place not make money at lunch during school vacation? It blows my mind. We left at lunch as a result.


----------



## River19 (Feb 21, 2016)

Sad state of affairs.....which is basically the gist of these 645 pages or so..........

My wife an I used to enjoy going to the 'Rack after snowshoeing or snowmobiling etc. and have some beverages with Roger and the rest of the staff.  Some really good memories of those times......hitting the rack at 3pm them just staying for dinner at the bar and walking away $200 lighter......but alas.....vacation weekend and the best bar/restaurant the mountain property can muster is closed.......how friggin' pathetic is that.


----------



## halfpintvt (Feb 21, 2016)

I am wondering how much longer they can continue losing $$$. They have more than $275,000 in liens recorded against them plus what they owe Peak-CM. I don't see the hotel opening any time soon and even if it did open ski season is just about over.........could Chapter 13 be in looming in their future?


----------



## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> The Burke Publick House
> Foggy Goggle
> Kingdom Tap Room
> Schillings in NH
> ...



We hit up Shillings in Littleton on the way home. It was very good. We went to the Kingdom Tap Room last time we were in town. Also good, but more for the beer and atmosphere than dinner.

It is unfortunate this trip basically ruined Burke for my wife. She also was unhappy with Bromley and Mount Snow last month. She doesn't want to return to Vermont this year but I already booked Stowe for next weekend.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 21, 2016)

at least at $teaux you'll be taking her to a proper and upscale resort. mount snow has their shit together i assume, but i also assume its a lot of park rat kids all over the place.


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> at least at $teaux you'll be taking her to a proper and upscale resort. mount snow has their shit together i assume, but i also assume its a lot of park rat kids all over the place.



Mount Snow was way too crowded with limited terrain. And a primary complaint was quality of food vs price. $7/pint and something like $14 for a sandwich with chips out of a bag.

We're thinking of hitting Jay or Sugarbush next Sunday. Will be decided based on the status of the glades at Jay. Either way next weekend promises to be better. All of the northern Vermont mountains besides Burke have been reliable options in the past.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> I am wondering how much longer they can continue losing $$$. They have more than $275,000 in liens recorded against them plus what they owe Peak-CM. I don't see the hotel opening any time soon and even if it did open ski season is just about over.........could Chapter 13 be in looming in their future?


Who has recorded liens other than the hotel contractor?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2016)

yeggous said:


> We hit up Shillings in Littleton on the way home. It was very good. We went to the Kingdom Tap Room last time we were in town. Also good, but more for the beer and atmosphere than dinner.
> 
> It is unfortunate this trip basically ruined Burke for my wife. She also was unhappy with Bromley and Mount Snow last month. She doesn't want to return to Vermont this year but I already booked Stowe for next weekend.


Glad you hit up Schillings.  

What soured your wife on Burke?  The lack of terrain available?  It's definitely a very different mountain when there is sufficient natural snow.


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2016)

It started with the lack of terrain. After 4 runs she wanted to go in for a bit. What sent her over the edge was the lack of a full service restaurant in which to recuperate.

We went to Burke on Easter last year and it was great. Everything was opened and they had a lovely brunch buffet at the TamaraQ.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2016)

What's really odd is that the Tamarack was open for a pass holder event until 10:30 AM.  I don't understand why they wouldn't keep it open after that.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2016)

Did you ask anyone why it was closed? I'd be interested to hear the rationale.  

If they wanted to, they could make the Bear's Den a bit more "full service."Just expand the menu and have the items come out of the cafeteria kitchen.  That's basically what Crotched does with the Onset Pub.


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## River19 (Feb 21, 2016)

None of these things alone are a good sign, all together....I smell trouble.....

I second VTK's question on the $275K in liens........seems very plausible but I'm curious who is filing against them other than Peak.....

I'm still thinking "Peak Hotel at Burke Mountain"........lol


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 21, 2016)

The only thing that is going to save them is cold and snow and hopefully a good spring season. If they management style  doesn't change soon, I can't believe they'll survive another season, especially if they don't get that hotel open soon. Retail closed, restaurants closed... what's left to close besides the lifts and grooming?


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## River19 (Feb 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> The only thing that is going to save them is cold and snow and hopefully a good spring season. If they management style  doesn't change soon, I can't believe they'll survive another season, especially if they don't get that hotel open soon. Retail closed, restaurants closed... what's left to close besides the lifts and grooming?



Nothing really.......What is really separating Q from a shuttered operation?  The lifts spin, occasional light snow making, groomers go through the motions and the Bear Den functions as a cafe.  That is the entire Q operation......QHotel missed all key weekends and weeks of the ski season after being adamant they would be open on December 11th......over 2 months later it is looking further from opening rather than closer.  Retail hasn't been open in a long time.......not that anyone was buying Qmerchandise anyways.  Tamarack has gone through more identity crisis than Mylie Cyrus in the past couple years......and all of them sucked......a "sports bar" that wasn't open by 1pm on NFL Sundays.....really?  How hard are you really trying?

This feels like the turds are swirling in the bowl and are about to go down the drain.............


----------



## halfpintvt (Feb 22, 2016)

The following liens have been recorded against Q Burke/Burke 2000 LLC:

Vermont Log and Timber Builders           $   11,354.83
Blanc and Bailey                                    $ 241,501.47
Winterset                                             $   54,285.43

All of the filings include interest and legal fees in addition to the recorded amount.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2016)

My guess is that they are subcontractors on the hotel project.


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## farlep99 (Feb 22, 2016)

yeggous said:


> It started with the lack of terrain. After 4 runs she wanted to go in for a bit. What sent her over the edge was the lack of a full service restaurant in which to recuperate.
> 
> We went to Burke on Easter last year and it was great. Everything was opened and they had a lovely brunch buffet at the TamaraQ.



Does Burke really not have a bar/restaurant open during ski operations?  In other words, do they have a place where I could stop at 1130-1200pm & grab a burger & beer?


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## yeggous (Feb 22, 2016)

farlep99 said:


> Does Burke really not have a bar/restaurant open during ski operations?  In other words, do they have a place where I could stop at 1130-1200pm & grab a burger & beer?



I asked the same question. The short answer is no, there is no full service restaurant. The cafeteria is the only place to get a burger. There is a mid-mountain bar but no burgers are served at the bar. And it does no good if your wife already has her boots off in the main lodge.


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## xwhaler (Feb 22, 2016)

Must be a new change this yr---I've always eaten lunch in the Tamarack when I've skied Burke. 
I could maybe see it on a slow midweek day but the end of school vaca, start of NH vaca week.
That is unacceptable they weren't open.

Sled Pub at Pats was packed yesterday afternoon and I enjoyed my Harpoon IPA and Burger.


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## River19 (Feb 22, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I asked the same question. The short answer is no, there is no full service restaurant. The cafeteria is the only place to get a burger. There is a mid-mountain bar but no burgers are served at the bar. And it does no good if your wife already has her boots off in the main lodge.



Not to beat a dead horse here but........

If they don't put beer in the same place as the burgers.....I fail to comprehend how they can say they are putting in a honest effort at running a viable "resort" or ski mountain.  This is the most obvious and basic thing a mountain can do......reall pathetic.

This whole situations reeks of an operation about to go belly up under the weight of some of the most epic bad decision making in any business case I have ever come across.  I never would have fathomed it could be this bad with these guys.

Anyone hear anything from our favorite condo marketer?  I am actually beginning to really worry about him.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

So did anyone go to the Passholder Meeting?  If so, how did it go?  

Was it more of the same?


----------



## Edd (Feb 22, 2016)

Saddleback in a coma and Burke is a seemingly terminal patient. I'm at Crotched today raising my glass to better days ahead. It's pretty nice here today.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

Edd said:


> Saddleback in a coma and Burke is a seemingly terminal patient. I'm at Crotched today raising my glass to better days ahead. It's pretty nice here today.



Amen.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 22, 2016)

So... wonder if they closed food service to save cash or they ran out of credit from food service vendors...


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## River19 (Feb 22, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> So... wonder if they closed food service to save cash or they ran out of credit from food service vendors...



If I were any type of vendor I would demand payment up front before any product or service is delivered.  COD or nothing.....

Anyone want to buy a mountain with an overly large hotel on it?  Like new, never been used.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

River19 said:


> Anyone hear anything from our favorite condo marketer?  I am actually beginning to really worry about him.



Yes, we have not heard from the three people who think that we are a bunch of negative nannies.  After the news about the Hotel, I think it is fair to say that all is not well in Qville.  That's just a fair observation.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

Today is the first day for the new general manager, according to what I was told this morning - identified as Mike Pappalardo, owner of Mike's Electric Inc (MEI)


----------



## River19 (Feb 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, we have not heard from the three people who think that we are a bunch of negative nannies.  After the news about the Hotel, I think it is fair to say that all is not well in Qville.  That's just a fair observation.



Anything to the contrary would require a long explanation and some incredible proof as all indications point to a bad ending.

I have a feeling the Hotel may end up "as is" for a while and while that mess lingers the Mountain operations themselves will be run with a skeleton crew as come the end of ski season Jr can reduce staff significantly and then sit still for several weeks until bike season opens and that can run with a much smaller group of employees.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> Today is the first day for the new general manager, according to what I was told this morning - identified as Mike Pappalardo, owner of Mike's Electric Inc (MEI)



Another new GM?!  What is this, the third or fourth one in a year?


----------



## Gman (Feb 22, 2016)

Yet they're blowing snow on Ledges and Lower Foxes today.  I have a hard time believing that directive is coming from Ary.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Another new GM?!  What is this, the third or fourth one in a year?



And how many have had ski area experience?  None?


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## yeggous (Feb 22, 2016)

The TamaraQ was open that day for a special breakfast, and as regularly scheduled in the afternoon at 2pm. But it's regular schedule does not include lunch. I can verify that this is different than last year.

This did hold a bridal show at the hotel on Sunday. I saw exhibitors bringing in supplies.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2016)

Gman said:


> Yet they're blowing snow on Ledges and Lower Foxes today.  I have a hard time believing that directive is coming from Ary.



I'm impressed that they are blowing snow at all.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

yeggous said:


> The TamaraQ was open that day for a special breakfast, and as regularly scheduled in the afternoon at 2pm. But it's regular schedule does not include lunch. I can verify that this is different than last year.
> 
> This did hold a bridal show at the hotel on Sunday. I saw exhibitors bringing in supplies.



Very interesting.  Was Peaks the one hosting the event?  How would Q get the keys and yet not be able to book rooms?


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And how many have had ski area experience?  None?



Well, Ary DID complete that INTENSE internship at a "luxury hotel" in Europe when he was younger.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Very interesting.  Was Peaks the one hosting the event?  How would Q get the keys and yet not be able to book rooms?



There was an article about it in today's Caledonian Record.  All it said was that the contractor allowed the use of the hotel even though the COs had not been handed over.

The article said that some people have weddings booked at the hotel.  If I were those people I would be getting nervous.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There was an article about it in today's Caledonian Record.  All it said was that the contractor allowed the use of the hotel even though the COs had not been handed over.
> 
> The article said that some people have weddings booked at the hotel.  If I were those people I would be getting nervous.



Interesting.  Here's what the preview of the article says:



> EAST BURKE -- For the first time, the QBurke Hotel & Conference Center was open for business on Sunday as a huge white limo parked at the rear entrance of the grand new facility signaled a function presented by Exquisite Bridal & Formal Wear of St. Johnsbury.



Just when we thought we have seen it all at Burke.....

:roll:


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 22, 2016)

I would guess that it kind of makes sense to have a show like that there, *if* they are going to be booking weddings and all...

*if *they ever open...


----------



## halfpintvt (Feb 22, 2016)

Editorial in the Caledonian Record


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]2/20/2016 8:00:00 AM[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Editorial: Betting On Bill Stenger*[/FONT]
 






[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]The new hotel and conference center at Burke Mountain is ready to open after recently receiving state Certificates of Occupancy.
 But unpaid bills to general contractor Jerry Davis are keeping doors to the impressive new facility closed.
 Grand openings have been repeatedly delayed as developer Bill Stenger  has dealt with neverending series of setbacks. Those headaches have  exacerbated the financial torment of a calamitous lack of snow and  visitors this winter.
 Meanwhile a whole bunch of local people anxiously await the possibility of new jobs and opportunities at the mountain.
 The problem started two years ago when a small handful of foreign  investors complained to the state after experiencing some buyer's  remorse. They weren't complaining about their newly minted green cards -  the crown jewel of the EB-5 program - just that they suddenly believed  the totally legitimate, above-board deal they willingly signed should  somehow be made sweeter.
 They got upset when Bill Stenger and Ari Quiros dissolved "Jay Peak  Hotel Suites, LP," the legal entity created to build the resort's Tram  Haus lodge. With the move, 35 limited partners (each who invested  $500,000) lost investor status. In exchange, they got promissory notes,  backed by the value of the resort.
 The state of Vermont's EB-5 Regional Center, as one might expect from  a state agency dealing with complex issues, pretty much had no idea  what was going on. They looked totally foolish when their advice to the  disgruntled investors was essentially "call Bill Stenger... he's such a  great guy."


[/FONT]
 


[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]The  investors were confused. Vermont's highest ranking pols (Governor Peter  Shumlin, Senators Patrick Leahy and Bernie Sanders, and Rep. Peter  Welch) were crawling over each other to take credit for Stenger and  Quiros' successes. So how was it, with such a suddenly high profile  program, that Vermont's only regulatory body appeared to be no more than  glorified cheerleaders?
 Well if there's one thing bureaucrats and politicians hate, it's  being outed as buffoons. The political class, few of whom have ever  built companies or created jobs, started whispering about fraud,  corruption, conspiracy, ponzi schemes, dirty capitalists,  end-of-the-world, etc. And the way they always deal with that kind of  thing is to invent ways to show the world how tough, smart and useful  they can be.
 Typically that spells death for free enterprise.
 The state made a couple of statutory changes and focused its vast,  taxpayer-funded focus and energy into regulating Stenger, et al. That  meant that the men who created thousands of jobs, and on whose coattails  Governor Shumlin rode so boastfully for years, suddenly had to answer  to a handful of pencil-pushers before they could write checks or tie  their shoes.
 No big surprise... with their hands tied, Stenger and Quiros have since been beset by headaches, setbacks and delays.
 The biggest irony? The foreign investors who turned to the state  years ago because they "lost confidence" in Stenger and Vermont's  ability to control him, were really just looking for ways to safeguard  their money. By summoning the "power" of the state, those pigeonhearts  put otherwise solid investments into serious jeopardy.
 We didn't think there were "guarantees" in the investment world. We  thought it worked like this: do your homework, pick a strong company,  caveat emptor, and place your bets.
 For our money, we would have stuck with the guys who turned an  obscure federal program into $650 million in local investments over  Montpelier desk-jockeys who've never created anything in their lives.
[/FONT]


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 22, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Editorial in the Caledonian Record
> 
> 
> 2/20/2016 8:00:00 AM
> ...




"solid investments" ?


----------



## oldtimer (Feb 22, 2016)

Snowmaking today at Burke.  Lower Foxes Folly is what I see on their facebook pics.  I think this may be a matter of necessity rather than expanding terrain to improve the product.   Burke is hosting U16 State championships Sat, Sun & Monday.  high level racing and the general public are not a safe mix.  I am guessing that the safety personnel and the academy have agreed that letting the general public ski down the bottom of Warrren's way during these races is not safe.  Thus they need that short chunk of Foxes to access the MBE chair off that side of the mountain w/o going down the Willoughby trail. This is speculation, but adding that chunk of foxes does not do much to add to the offerings.  Someone has said they were blowing on Ledges.  That would be a substantial move to add more open terrain and fascinating in the face of this upcoming wet blowtorch.


----------



## epic (Feb 22, 2016)

So, when did the Quiros family buy the Caledonia Record? Will they be re-naming it the Qaledonia Record?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, we have not heard from the three people who think that we are a bunch of negative nannies.  After the news about the Hotel, I think it is fair to say that all is not well in Qville.  That's just a fair observation.



Here I am!!

Sorry kids been finally getting my turns in at Jay. You all should have gotten the Judge pass!

well I logged in like usual after seeing the cal record. that about sums up everything I have been saying, plus the huge factor of this awful winter.....still calling this a tempest in a teapot egged on by what is many here's (justifiable) disdain for Ary and his terrible management. Which I personally have not witnessed at Burke in quality of product in several trips this year. 

So, yes, the hotel will open and will be busy. Burke will have a normal winter next year with marginally better snowmaking. Skier visits will rise, revenue will pour in from a debt free hotel, and I'll bet you a lunchtime beer at Tamarack they build more EB 5 financed projects at Burke, for better or worse.

Whose got the other side of my bet?


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 23, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Here I am!!
> 
> Sorry kids been finally getting my turns in at Jay. You all should have gotten the Judge pass!
> 
> ...




I'm in, but we're going to Mike's Tiki Bar, not the Tamaracq. If Ary is removed from the equation and a real ski area leader appears I might renege....


----------



## River19 (Feb 23, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> I'm in, but we're going to Mike's Tiki Bar, not the Tamaracq. If Ary is removed from the equation and a real ski area leader appears I might renege....



Ah yes, a year ago we were fed that nice spoonful of bullshit where Jr was stepping away from the day to day operations and daddy Sr. and Uncle Bill were hiring in a Mountain Ops guy with experience etc.........how did that work out?  GMs come and go like Sysco trucks and Jr is still playing with daddy's mountain and turned it into a game of budget cut whack-a-mole......

I'll just be at Mike's post KT rides anyway hanging with everyone that used to work at the rack when it was decent as well as all the bikers and locals that refuse to go up the hill.


----------



## the original trailboss (Feb 23, 2016)

River19 said:


> Ah yes, a year ago we were fed that nice spoonful of bullshit where Jr was stepping away from the day to day operations and daddy Sr. and Uncle Bill were hiring in a Mountain Ops guy with experience etc.........how did that work out?  GMs come and go like Sysco trucks and Jr is still playing with daddy's mountain and turned it into a game of budget cut whack-a-mole......
> 
> I'll just be at Mike's post KT rides anyway hanging with everyone that used to work at the rack when it was decent as well as all the bikers and locals that refuse to go up the hill.




 You are correct !


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2016)

> The  problem started two years ago when a small handful of *foreign   investors complained to the state after experiencing some buyer's   remorse. *They weren't complaining about their newly minted green cards -   the crown jewel of the EB-5 program - just that* they suddenly believed   the totally legitimate, above-board deal they willingly signed should   somehow be made sweeter.*




I'm not familiar with the Caledonian Record, but apparently it's being run by the former Politburo chief of Soviet Pravda.  

Maybe he/she entered via EB-5.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 23, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not familiar with the Caledonian Record, but apparently it's being run by the former Politburo chief of Soviet Pravda.
> 
> Maybe he/she entered via EB-5.


The Cal-Rec has a pretty long history editorializing about government overreach and generally not agreeing with almost anything done in Montpelier.
They aren't financial experts either :wink:.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Cal-Rec has a pretty long history editorializing about government overreach and generally not agreeing with almost anything done in Montpelier.
> They aren't financial experts either :wink:.



They also go over the top.  I agree with some things (the State's complete disaster in "overseeing" the program) but disagree strongly with others (the idea that the Hotel is not open because of the State; it is because Q did not raise enough money!).  They've grossly oversimplified a complex mess.


----------



## River19 (Feb 23, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Cal-Rec has a pretty long history editorializing about government overreach and generally not agreeing with almost anything done in Montpelier.
> They aren't financial experts either :wink:.



I have typically found I can get all I ever would need from the Cal Rec during the 2 mins I stand in line at the grocery store.....sometimes I buy it if I need something to start the wood stove......their quality content barely lasts one dump run to the bathroom, at least for me, YMMV......


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Cal-Rec has a pretty long history editorializing about government overreach and generally not agreeing with almost anything done in Montpelier.
> *They aren't financial experts either *:wink:.



That bit's evident.



thetrailboss said:


> *They've grossly oversimplified a complex mess.*



Horribly.   You read complete nonsense like that and you cant help but think of negative Vermont stereotypes.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2016)

There is another article about the hotel in today's Caledonian Record.  Stenger stated that he is paying the contractor over time and expects full payment in four to six weeks.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is another article about the hotel in today's Caledonian Record.  Stenger stated that he is paying the contractor over time and expects full payment in four to six weeks.



So the Qhotel is on layaway?   

How's that operating capital account doing......lol.....


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That bit's evident.
> 
> 
> 
> Horribly.   You read complete nonsense like that and you cant help but think of negative Vermont stereotypes.



So are you a financial expert? Pray tell, what s the mess they are missing? Lead with facts please.

Here's what I see as issues

Duplicity (not illegality) in ow Stenger and Quiros treated the 35 original investors. Not ideal but so what? Not even all the investors in this tranche care, just a percentage of them! Investment involves risk. Their downside protection is a goddamn green card. Good trade as I see it.


Possible malfeasance in land deals between the EB 5 investors and land sales with Quiros
And the fact that the hotel is 1.6% over budget and therefore "unfunded" is a non-event.  That number on any project should be considered a victory.

However, and here is where the Cal record is right- the process the state instituted is a bureaucratic black hole. Do you really think Jerry Davis would have the same issue with getting paid if he knew funds where available (and I have a source that says paying the $1.6 is not a problem, the funds are incoming) and forthcoming once pledged to Qburke? Of course not. They need to be put through the filter of the state and approved.

Which of course inserts uncertainty. However- the state has played all claims sent already, so all this financial impropriety you all want to see doesn't really seem to exist, does it? But if I was Jerry, and I saw how the state has taken these guys from Herod to pariahs (again the Cal record is right), I would be cautious too.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

So the Ohotel IS on layaway then.......


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

What are you, a librarian or something? $55 million construction projects go over budget all
the time. It's called the real world, look into it sometime.

And I would note Davis again in the Cal Record squarely and emphatically blames the state. But you guys just keep going with your playground jokes on Ary.


----------



## freeski (Feb 24, 2016)

They have run the mountain into the ground with their poor management and it will never recover. Q-F***-U*.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> So are you a financial expert? Pray tell, what s the mess they are missing? Lead with facts please.



You're somewhere between 4,500 to 5,500 posts late to this game.   It's all there.  In detail.



Big Wave Dave said:


> However- the state has played all claims sent already, so all *this financial impropriety you all want to see doesn't really seem to exist, does it?*



There is absolutely no way to know this (literally) with what we publicly know, and that's a *MAJOR* problem.   

In my experience, were I forced to speculate (and I have), I would be very surprised were there not impropriety here given the complete lack of financial oversight, the complete lack of accountability, the MASSIVE sums of money involved, the complete dereliction of any standards of basic accounting, and what we now know were intentional delays and a bulwark of stalling with regards to audit access (which have still not been resolved) - all of which defy a most basic test of logic.   Which I've written about in detail (probably 2,000 posts back).


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> What are you, a librarian or something? $55 million construction projects go over budget all
> the time. It's called the real world, look into it sometime.
> 
> And I would note Davis again in the Cal Record squarely and emphatically blames the state. But you guys just keep going with your playground jokes on Ary.



Lol, BWD I am firmly planted in reality and no, not a librarian, I co-manage a $5.6B budget each year which makes this $55M project look like a toy, but I do enjoy your spunkiness.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

Yeah. It's such a major problem the state released all the funds. 

You can make all the allegations you want but the powers that be are not in agreement. Carry on Señor Quixote.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

freeski said:


> They have run the mountain into the ground with their poor management and it will never recover. Q-F***-U*.



Dude. Burke went to auction not that long ago and it was almost killed. If you think this is the bottom of the barrel you haven't a clue.


----------



## freeski (Feb 24, 2016)

The land purchase for the hotel; start there.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

So all internet blustering aside, here the mountain is after by all accounts a horrid ski year both weather wise and Qperations wise..............hotel was not open one day during the heart of the ski season, missed all key holiday weeks etc. and terrain has been tough to maintain this year.

The onsite F&B biz has been "meh" at best by all accounts with obvious signs of budget whack-a-mole decisions being made.

What needs to happen to turn this thing around?  How can the mountain avoid a significant drop in season pass sales?  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised for season pass sales to be down at least a third or more for 2016/2017.

Maybe soft opening on the hotel for the bike season in June and get your crap together from a service perspective....dig a second pond, upgrade some pump capacity etc.  What does the path to success look like at this point knowing they took an amazingly bad case study and doubled down on the bad in the past 4 months?


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

You mean like above where I said the outstanding issue of the land deals between the EB 5 and Quiros? Yup got that one, amazing, I didn't even read all 2000 detective like posts!

Again, the state, which actually has all the information, released all funds for the hotel. So, you may have smoke, but those with all the evidence (which you admit you don't have) don't have fire.

Speculation fails in the face of contrary, concrete actions. Your comments on an Internet board are speculation. The state paying th invoices is concrete action.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is another article about the hotel in today's Caledonian Record.  Stenger stated that he is paying the contractor over time and expects full payment in four to six weeks.



Wow.  Unreal.  If they don't have enough investors to pay for the Hotel then they certainly are not going to be doing any other projects soon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Dude. Burke went to auction not that long ago and it was almost killed. If you think this is the bottom of the barrel you haven't a clue.



That was 16 years ago.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> What are you, a librarian or something? $55 million construction projects go over budget all
> the time. It's called the real world, look into it sometime.
> 
> And I would note Davis again in the Cal Record squarely and emphatically blames the state. But you guys just keep going with your playground jokes on Ary.



If you read the latest articles on it you will see that the issue was not the State but the fact that Stenger and company ran out of money.  The State said that they gave them EVERYTHING that was in the escrow account. 

Stenger trotted out the State excuse to save face and buy time.  That was in November/December.  Besides, Shumlin et al are NOT at all popular and are lame ducks, so there was no loss there.  

Many of us have suspected, and said, that all does not seem right here.  Many of us also noticed the delays and other issues.  It is clear that they did not fully fund the Hotel and got it started with the hopes that they would get the money.  Now, like their other projects, they have run out of money.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> You mean like above where I said the outstanding issue of the land deals between the EB 5 and Quiros? Yup got that one, amazing, I didn't even read all 2000 detective like posts!
> 
> Again, the state, which actually has all the information, released all funds for the hotel. So, you may have smoke, but those with all the evidence (which you admit you don't have) don't have fire.
> 
> Speculation fails in the face of contrary, concrete actions. Your comments on an Internet board are speculation. The state paying th invoices is concrete action.



If you are saying that "all is well" with the entire Stenger/Q EB-5 operation then you either don't know of the pending SEC Investigation or are ignoring that fact.  Yes, the State released the money for the Hotel because that portion was fine and the expenses were legit.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That was 16 years ago.



And? It was a rebuttal to someone who said Burke was not coming back. I went to that auction. Burke was dead. Since then, there have been a large amount of investments. No sane person could think it is worse today.

Heck I'll take Q over the live grenade that was Ginn and Lubert Adler. I trust EB 5 over PE any day.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

And Newport is looking awesome by the way........glad they started that without funding or a real plan.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> And? It was a rebuttal to someone who said Burke was not coming back. I went to that auction. Burke was dead. Since then, there have been a large amount of investments. No sane person could think it is worse today.
> 
> Heck I'll take Q over the live grenade that was Ginn and Lubert Adler. I trust EB 5 over PE any day.



What was wrong with LA?  Yes, Ginn had their issues but they did not fire the entire mountain management and substitute it for the JV, hell, not even the Freshman team to run the place.  They also sunk a lot of money into the place.  

So here's the real question:  let's say this continues and they either declare bankruptcy or put it on the market.  Tell me WHO would be in line to purchase it?  

16 years ago a certain guardian angel rose to the occasion for a certain ski academy to buy and run the mountain.  I highly doubt that he and that institution have any interest or resources to run it now with a huge empty hotel.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> If you are saying that "all is well" with the entire Stenger/Q EB-5 operation then you either don't know of the pending SEC Investigation or are ignoring that fact.  Yes, the State released the money for the Hotel because that portion was fine and the expenses were legit.



It's not pending its ongoing. Where have I said all is well? Clearly there are issues. But would you not agree the hotel is far and away the largest aspect of the build, and in the face of the state releasing ALL funds that is a positive sign?

What would you rabid wolves think of the state hadn't released funds?

The answer to that question is why I am right here. You all could not be any more negative when facts on the ground as we know them, not speculate, indicate the hotel project is aboveboard. 

And Trailboss you also know th office administering the escrow account is a respected, diligent body. You have to give its release of funds the credence it deserves, and none of you are.

I reserve any comments on management and ops to you guys, like I said, been their twice this year with my granddaughters and everything seemed fine. We even had drinks and food in the tamarack and survived. And yeah, my word, the hotel is the penultimate case study in bad management.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> It's not pending its ongoing. Where have I said all is well? Clearly there are issues. But would you not agree the hotel is far and away the largest aspect of the build, and in the face of the state releasing ALL funds that is a positive sign?
> 
> What would you rabid wolves think of the state hadn't released funds?
> 
> ...



In the interest of full disclosure, I used to work for the former BISHCA and know a lot of folks there still.  Their current oversight seems to be working.  But my point is that the fact that they disbursed the funds that Q had to pay for the Hotel in no way excuses Q and company of previous transgressions that may not have come to the surface.  Is it good?  Sure.  But we're not there yet.  

The State did a terrible job before 2014's complaints against Stenger and Q.  Actually, they did NO oversight.  How the Commissioner of the Department of Economic Development kept her job is beyond me.  They had a clear conflict of interest there.  Maybe there will be ultimately no harm in the end but we don't know.  

As to the whole "negative" thing, to each their own.  I don't think you can dismiss what folks discuss here as mere negativity.  Personally, the fact that the QHotel is now 2 almost 3 months BEHIND opening is disturbing.  To hear that the reason is that they cannot pay the contractor is more troubling.  There were signs of this a long time ago, but some dismissed it as mere negativity.  Guess not.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

River19 said:


> And Newport is looking awesome by the way........glad they started that without funding or a real plan.....



that's great. this is a thread about Burke.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> that's great. this is a thread about Burke.



Agreed.

Newport came to mind based on some pro-Stenger.org comment above that I didn't feel like going back to reference.

And to your point above, releaseing the funds is a positive sign.  Sort of.  The released the funds and the hotel can possibly open at a time when no one wants to stay in said hotel as they missed the entire season and pissed off all the new adopters that booked rooms by biting on their #20 Bullshit fly.......only to be reamed in the rear when the Qhotel didn't open.

So yes, while better late than never is all good, but they missed the whole damn season and built even more ill will which I thought really was hard to do.

It is hard to be positive Dave when every time you try to give them the benefit of the doubt they crap themselves.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> What was wrong with LA?  Yes, Ginn had their issues but they did not fire the entire mountain management and substitute it for the JV, hell, not even the Freshman team to run the place.  They also sunk a lot of money into the place.
> 
> So here's the real question:  let's say this continues and they either declare bankruptcy or put it on the market.  Tell me WHO would be in line to purchase it?
> 
> 16 years ago a certain guardian angel rose to the occasion for a certain ski academy to buy and run the mountain.  I highly doubt that he and that institution have any interest or resources to run it now with a huge empty hotel.



Ha, Lubert backed Ginn's ideas (along with Credit Suisse). Go look at the plans for Ginn Su Mer in the Bahamas. that is why they scared me!

no idea but all the ski area has been lacking consistently is skier visits. the hotel should change that, Kingdom Trails didn't exist in 2000 so its now a viable 4 season area, so I think the value proposition of the ski area is markedly increased since Don Graham (we can say is name right?) saved the place. Any further comment on this would be total speculation on my part, I don't know enough about the state of the ski area management business.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Ha, Lubert backed Ginn's ideas (along with Credit Suisse). Go look at the plans for Ginn Su Mer in the Bahamas. that is why they scared me!
> 
> no idea but all the ski area has been lacking consistently is skier visits. the hotel should change that, Kingdom Trails didn't exist in 2000 so its now a viable 4 season area, so I think the value proposition of the ski area is markedly increased since Don Graham (we can say is name right?) saved the place. Any further comment on this would be total speculation on my part, I don't know enough about the state of the ski area management business.



For a NORMAL ski resort, I would agree that things should be on the up and up now.  For these guys, nope.  It's because of their actions.  You mention KT as a draw--it certainly is.  But the biking community is tight and they certainly know about how Q burned bridges BIG TIME with KT.  Also most of the bike traffic are into dirtbagging it.  As in camping or cheap places to stay.  Not the QHotel.  So it remains to see what happens with the Hotel.  

As to skier visits, conventional wisdom would certainly be "build it and they will come."  But when one considers WHO skis at Burke you, and when you go up there on an average day, you used to see a hell of a lot of green plates and NH plates.  I say used to because the bulk of the traffic was locals.  Yeah, the same locals who Q has pissed off numerous times.  The idea that Q will just get folks to come from Boston or NYC to fill the gap is shortsighted.  For decades that was the idea.  "After the interstate is done we will be in great shape" then became, "well, after we build more condos we will be in great shape," then it became, "well, put in a HSQ and we will get more folks", etc.  The ski market is very, very tight.  There is a saturation of ski areas for such a small market.  So what he is learning is what we all knew--no, folks are not going to drive further for Q.

Ideally you'd keep your local market and add more visitors to it to get to the coveted 100k skier day mark and beyond.  You don't just burn your entire base and expect to rebuild it with visiting traffic overnight.  Or as we say in Vermont, "you don't cut off your nose to spite your face."


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

River19 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Newport came to mind based on some pro-Stenger.org comment above that I didn't feel like going back to reference.
> 
> ...



sure. So how many of the weddings booked at the hotel this summer have cancelled in light of this? 

and once again you are choosing to blame Stenger and Quiros here. I blame the state, as does the contractor.  Why do you not agree with Jerry Davis that this is a state caused issue? 

Who says those whose reservations were cancelled don't blame the state also? Heck, if I was Burke PR I would just send them the Cal Record article.

time will tell but like I have before, bet ya a beer at the Tamarak (sorry, Tiki Bar) that hotel is jammed next winter. My wife also has a friend on the Burke planning board and for what its worth, the hotel was always expected to produce more revenue in summer than winter. All is not hopeless with a single lost winter.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> no idea but all the ski area has been lacking consistently is skier visits.


And snowmaking.  

And a aquatic and tennis training facilities.   



.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> and once again you are choosing to blame Stenger and Quiros here. I blame the state.


Then you clearly have no clue.  



.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> For a NORMAL ski resort, I would agree that things should be on the up and up now.  For these guys, nope.  It's because of their actions.  You mention KT as a draw--it certainly is.  But the biking community is tight and they certainly know about how Q burned bridges BIG TIME with KT.  Also most of the bike traffic are into dirtbagging it.  As in camping or cheap places to stay.  Not the QHotel.  So it remains to see what happens with the Hotel.
> 
> As to skier visits, conventional wisdom would certainly be "build it and they will come."  But when one considers WHO skis at Burke you, and when you go up there on an average day, you used to see a hell of a lot of green plates and NH plates.  I say used to because the bulk of the traffic was locals.  Yeah, the same locals who Q has pissed off numerous times.  The idea that Q will just get folks to come from Boston or NYC to fill the gap is shortsighted.  For decades that was the idea.  "After the interstate is done we will be in great shape" then became, "well, after we build more condos we will be in great shape," then it became, "well, put in a HSQ and we will get more folks", etc.  The ski market is very, very tight.  There is a saturation of ski areas for such a small market.  So what he is learning is what we all knew--no, folks are not going to drive further for Q.
> 
> Ideally you'd keep your local market and add more visitors to it to get to the coveted 100k skier day mark and beyond.  You don't just burn your entire base and expect to rebuild it with visiting traffic overnight.  Or as we say in Vermont, "you don't cut off your nose to spite your face."



Could not agree more with your historical description here, pretty accurate.  But nobody liked Ary last year either and skier visits were flat not down, again with a terrible x-mas w. This year one could not make such an easy comparison because skier visits will be way down, and likely season pass sales also which always decline at every ski area after poor snow years. Therefore, I conjecture the hotel, will increase skier visits, and fills the hole that has universally (pre Quiros) be considered Burkes weakness- lack of onslope beds.

So, I take your point on local visits but insist you agree with mine on Burke having mitigated its historicallly largest issue (once the damn thing opens). 

As to how to mend fences with the town, would love to see people throw some ideas out on what needs to be done. Lets change the tone here people and all get along for a post or two


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

ok. does Jerry Davis have a clue? please explain why not, along with all details of your superior knowledge to the guy owed the damn money.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> sure. So how many of the weddings booked at the hotel this summer have cancelled in light of this?
> 
> and once again you are choosing to blame Stenger and Quiros here. I blame the state, as does the contractor.  Why do you not agree with Jerry Davis that this is a state caused issue?
> 
> ...



Whoa, whoa there.  You are taking the Stenger line that the State is to blame for the delays to the Hotel?  Stenger and Peak CM's position was trotted out in November/December.  Since then we have learned that the REAL reason why they are not open is that Peak CM is owed over $1 million by Q and that Q has run out of money.  THAT IS NOT THE STATE'S FAULT.  They underfunded it and now can't pay it off.  How is the State responsible for that?  Jerry Davis told the CR that Q owes him money and he won't turn over the keys.  That's the reason for the recent delay and now why Stenger is doing the infamous, "well, I will pay you off over the next X weeks" line.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> Could not agree more with your historical description here, pretty accurate.  But nobody liked Ary last year either and skier visits were flat not down, again with a terrible x-mas w. This year one could not make such an easy comparison because skier visits will be way down, and likely season pass sales also which always decline at every ski area after poor snow years. Therefore, I conjecture the hotel, will increase skier visits, and fills the hole that has universally (pre Quiros) be considered Burkes weakness- lack of onslope beds.



I would be surprised if their visits, over say the past five years, were flat last year.  Perhaps they are.  About the 70k range.  I know that folks believe that business is way down over the period of time that Q has run it.  This year will not be an accurate depiction because of the weather as you said.  But it might not have been quite as bad as it has been.  



> As to how to mend fences with the town, would love to see people throw some ideas out on what needs to be done. Lets change the tone here people and all get along for a post or two



We've kicked this around a lot....not recently, but in the past.  Here's my list:

1.  Send Junior to do something else.  Do a mea culpa and hire a real resort manager to run the place.  

2.  Give said manager the resources, and room, to do the job right.  

3.  Admit that the community is crucial to the mountain's success and, like the previous regime, try to bring them back into things.  

4.  Drop the stupid Q.  

5.  Bring snowmaking capacity to where it USED to be and increase it.  

6.  Be humble.  Very humble and hospitable.


----------



## farlep99 (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I would be surprised if their visits, over say the past five years, were flat last year.  Perhaps they are.  About the 70k range.  I know that folks believe that business is way down over the period of time that Q has run it.  This year will not be an accurate depiction because of the weather as you said.  But it might not have been quite as bad as it has been.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd move #4 to #1.


----------



## freeski (Feb 24, 2016)

Dropping the "Q" would go a long way.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 24, 2016)

freeski said:


> Dropping the "Q" would go a long way.



That's the truth.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## farlep99 (Feb 24, 2016)

freeski said:


> Dropping the "Q" would go a long way.



Along those lines, from 30mins ago on FB, this is Ary's response to someone telling him that the "Q" is pretentious & they should lose it.  The person's comment seemed out of the blue & unwarranted, but the response reeks of A-holeness:
_
Pretentious or not the "Q" has made a significant investment here which we should all embrace no matter how rough it may seem at times.  This particular change and investment is a step forward.  Burke Mountain as it stood before would probably be under new management or even shut down by now (again) if it wasn't for the significant capital investment the "Q" continues to make year-after-year in this place.  History is nice to hold on to, but the future is where any business, place and for that matter person should focus their efforts and passion.  Hopefully you'll choose to embrace the change and move forward with us._


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

freeski said:


> Dropping the "Q" would go a long way.



The negative impact from changing the name to "Q Burke" cannot be overestimated.  True story:  was at Alta a month ago and got talking to some guys visiting from Boston.  Told them I was from Vermont and they asked where I skied.  I said "Burke" and one guy says, "yeah, that's the place where the guy changed the name so to his, right?  I'm not interested in going there.  That tells me all I need to know about that asshole."


----------



## freeski (Feb 24, 2016)

Ary sounds like a Q-Nazi.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

farlep99 said:


> Along those lines, from 30mins ago on FB, this is Ary's response to someone telling him that the "Q" is pretentious & they should lose it.  The person's comment seemed out of the blue & unwarranted, but the response reeks of A-holeness:
> _
> Pretentious or not the "Q" has made a significant investment here which we should all embrace no matter how rough it may seem at times.  This particular change and investment is a step forward.  Burke Mountain as it stood before would probably be under new management or even shut down by now (again) if it wasn't for the significant capital investment the "Q" continues to make year-after-year in this place.  History is nice to hold on to, but the future is where any business, place and for that matter person should focus their efforts and passion.  Hopefully you'll choose to embrace the change and move forward with us._



He just won't learn.  His smartass remark back was also classic.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Feb 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Whoa, whoa there.  You are taking the Stenger line that the State is to blame for the delays to the Hotel?  Stenger and Peak CM's position was trotted out in November/December.  Since then we have learned that the REAL reason why they are not open is that Peak CM is owed over $1 million by Q and that Q has run out of money.  THAT IS NOT THE STATE'S FAULT.  They underfunded it and now can't pay it off.  How is the State responsible for that?  Jerry Davis told the CR that Q owes him money and he won't turn over the keys.  That's the reason for the recent delay and now why Stenger is doing the infamous, "well, I will pay you off over the next X weeks" line.



true. but like I said earlier- its barely underfunded if the percentages stated by Stenger and not contradicted by Davis are true (3% over budget/underfunded). And its also true, based on what has been reported (tell me, do you know different?) these funds are pledged from additional EB 5 investors- that is why Davis is blaming the state. Even if all the funds are in the account today, they still need to get approved.

Are you really going to hang Stenger over a 3% underfunding? Really? 3%. thats nothing.

 And for the life of me I dont understand why you are questioning Davis when he says its the states fault. He would clearly be ready to move forward on the IOU's if the state wasn't involved.  

'nuff said, its been fun but other duties call. till the next time! and PRAY FOR SNOW.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> true. but like I said earlier- its barely underfunded if the percentages stated by Stenger and not contradicted by Davis are true (3% over budget/underfunded). And its also true, based on what has been reported (tell me, do you know different?) these funds are pledged from additional EB 5 investors- that is why Davis is blaming the state. Even if all the funds are in the account today, they still need to get approved.
> 
> Are you really going to hang Stenger over a 3% underfunding? Really? 3%. thats nothing.
> 
> ...



The last comment I saw in the press from Davis was that he was owed "over a million dollars" for the Hotel by Stenger and Q.  The article then quoted an Email from the State to Stenger saying, "we gave you ALL of your money in escrow.  You simply do not have enough in there.  That's not our fault."  I have not seen anything from Davis saying that the State is to blame, but he is not going to bite the hand that feeds him.

If it is 3% remaining than that is $1.5 million or so....or 3-4 new investors.  If they have them, great.  If not, not good.  I have not heard anything to suggest that they DO have the investors and that the state is holding it up.  If someone has the article post it here.  Accepting Stenger and Q at their word: take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## River19 (Feb 24, 2016)

Trailboss.....your #1 item in the list.....Don't forget last year's crock of shit addressing Jr moving on and not being involved in day to day operations......so there was that......how did that lip service work out?

Change to "Q" is/was universally despised.....

As i asked multiple posts back......once the liens are cleared and the keys are handed over....what does success look like for the remainder of 2016 for the mountain?

Softly open the Qhotel early summer season, get their collective crap together from a service and F&B position.

Continue to plug away at the snowmaking ability....maybe second holding pond and additional pumping capacity....more FB posts in mid December 2016 exclaiming "25 gun blazing over night" would be a fail IMHO.

Operate the bike park to their full capability.....this is easy and they do a good job here save for kicking KT in the nutts which is unforgiveable....just to clarify, BWD, KT was here in 2000......they just celebrated their 20 year anny a year or so ago)

Figure out how to stop hacking down fences......only then can even entertain how to mend fences......removing Jr. and the "Q" are the first necessary steps.

Book up those weddings and knock those out of the park....I mean under promise and over deliver....blow them the frig away with service and quality.....

Come up with a great solution that appeals to muddy, thirsty and hungry bikers........and for cheaper than winter rates.....

Stop pissing people off and just operate a business roughly the way most owners would and maybe in a few years some locals will begin filtering up the hill with that skeptical NEK eye closely watching to make sure a Q-knife doesn't stab them in the soft spots.....

But WTF do I know...........


----------



## yeggous (Feb 24, 2016)

Did anyone else get today's marketing email specifically mentioning the TamaraQ hours as "2pm-close"? It made me growl.


----------



## freeski (Feb 24, 2016)

I think Q-Burke will contact AZ to offer free nights at the Q-Hotel with skiing for promoting the mountain.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> *I trust EB 5 over PE any day.*



Oh dear..... lol



thetrailboss said:


> The State did a terrible job before 2014's complaints against Stenger and Q.  Actually, they did NO oversight.*  How the Commissioner of the Department of Economic Development kept her job is beyond me.  They had a clear conflict of interest there*.  Maybe there will be ultimately no harm in the end but we don't know.



It's beyond believable, until you realize that to fire people and truly investigate is to admit wrongdoing.  There are also some extremely prominent pols who could get caught up in this too, so if there is any wrong-doing, it is in the best interest of virtually everyone involved to simply look the other way and sweep this deep under a rug. 

Which is precisely why I have for eons stated that a Federal investigation will likely be the only way to get to the bottom of this.  Also, the SEC investigation is still ongoing, and those can take several years.   To all the people who think, "well, nobody has been arrested or anything so all must be fine" - they don't understand how SEC investigations work, or the fact it can take 2,3,5 years before black cars roll in and a photographed perp-walk commences.



thetrailboss said:


> The idea that Q will just get folks to come from Boston or *NYC to fill the gap *is shortsighted.



If you live in NYC, you're likely not skiing at Burke.  Too many better, closer, options between you and the NEK.



farlep99 said:


> _
> Burke Mountain as it stood before would probably be under new management or even shut down by now (again) if it wasn't for the *significant capital investment* *the "Q" continues to make* year-after-year in this place._



Capital investment *≠* Free money.


----------



## faQ (Feb 24, 2016)

farlep99 said:


> Along those lines, from 30mins ago on FB, this is Ary's response to someone telling him that the "Q" is pretentious & they should lose it.  The person's comment seemed out of the blue & unwarranted, but the response reeks of A-holeness:
> _
> Pretentious or not the "Q" has made a significant investment here which we should all embrace no matter how rough it may seem at times.  This particular change and investment is a step forward.  Burke Mountain as it stood before would probably be under new management or even shut down by now (again) if it wasn't for the significant capital investment the "Q" continues to make year-after-year in this place.  History is nice to hold on to, but the future is where any business, place and for that matter person should focus their efforts and passion.  Hopefully you'll choose to embrace the change and move forward with us._



I missed the reply. What was it?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 24, 2016)

faQ said:


> I missed the reply. What was it?


"_Pretentious or not the "Q" has made a significant investment here which we should all embrace no matter how rough it may seem at times. This particular change and investment is a step forward. Burke Mountain as it stood before would probably be under new management or even shut down by now (again) if it wasn't for the significant capital investment the "Q" continues to make year-after-year in this place. History is nice to hold on to, but the future is where any business, place and for that matter person should focus their efforts and passion. Hopefully you'll choose to embrace the change and move forward with us."_


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## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Did anyone else get today's marketing email specifically mentioning the TamaraQ hours as "2pm-close"? It made me growl.



I was there on Monday and was wondering why it wasn't open at lunch. Some woman was walking by my wife saying "what a great management move. I guess they don't want my money. Why wouldn't they have the bar open?" I did get a beer at the lonely bear den.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2016)

Did anyone else get the Email saying they are closed tomorrow? Don't blame them.


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## River19 (Feb 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Did anyone else get the Email saying they are closed tomorrow? Don't blame them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



There is a flood watch for northern VT......so that is not really ski weather.........

On the bright side.......plenty of water in the river for snow making


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## VTKilarney (Feb 25, 2016)

Burke got about two inches of rain.  What a year.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke got about two inches of rain.  What a year.
> 
> 
> .



Is anything left?


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## zeke (Feb 25, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> ok. does Jerry Davis have a clue? please explain why not, along with all details of your superior knowledge to the guy owed the damn money.



just a guess here, but maybe, just maybe, davis took the original stenger party line because he's made quite a bit of money partnering with stenger over the last 10 years and didn't want to sour that relationship on the hope that the gravy train keeps rolling. again, a guess-no claim of "superior knowledge". just a bit of common sense


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## River19 (Feb 25, 2016)

zeke said:


> just a guess here, but maybe, just maybe, davis took the original stenger party line because he's made quite a bit of money partnering with stenger over the last 10 years and didn't want to sour that relationship on the hope that the gravy train keeps rolling. again, a guess-no claim of "superior knowledge". just a bit of common sense



This makes sense to me as well, it doesn't make sense for Jerry to continue to air dirty laundry in the Cal Rec etc.  He already took a pretty hard stand against Stenger several weeks back.  The rest should be done in private and I am sure it is.

Doesn't matter now as the weather has finally killed what is left for skiing without some serious work and $ to get snow made.

Heck Winter Bike looks to be in jeopardy for 3/4....which would suck I was looking forward to that as was my wife and friends....


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

zeke said:


> just a guess here, but maybe, just maybe, davis took the original stenger party line because he's made quite a bit of money partnering with stenger over the last 10 years and didn't want to sour that relationship on the hope that the gravy train keeps rolling. again, a guess-no claim of "superior knowledge". just a bit of common sense



That's EXACTLY what he is doing


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

Um yeah great skiing conditions here in the NEK. 




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## MG Skier (Feb 25, 2016)

Yikes, lots of #@!n up your way. Wasn't as bad down here but the wind was brutal about 3-5 A.M. Blue Hills Observatory recorded hurricane force winds.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 25, 2016)

Not good...


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## Smellytele (Feb 25, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Not good...



It looked like that on Monday and the skiing was still decent on what they had opened. The best natural trail was Powderhorn.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 25, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> It looked like that on Monday and the skiing was still decent on what they had opened. The best natural trail was Powderhorn.



I can't imagine Powderhorn will survive this storm.   I'm missing Powderhorn and East Bowl for sure.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 25, 2016)

xPost from the storm thread in the weather forum:

From lunchtime, complete with Eye on the Sky weather audio (Old Center Road video).


The roads were closed off so I couldn't see the worst of the flooding in St J Center.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 25, 2016)

Also from this morning...
This morning:
The usually 1 ft wide brook behind my house:


BackyardBrook by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


Covered bridge at the bottom of the hill:


Flood3 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


Ladies and gents, I give you "*VAST trails of 2016. Where's my SeaDoo?*"


Flood7 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


This weather really needs to stop.


FloodStop by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


However, it can be pretty.


ThawFog6 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




ThawFog8 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## River19 (Feb 25, 2016)

Awe man I know all those spots except for your backyard and that does not look good.  bottom of pudding hill looks ugly.......

awesome pics as usually btw.....


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

Best picture on WCAX from Lyndonville....yes, those are beer cans:


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2016)

I feel for the people affected in the picture, but the beer cans floating is pretty funny


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I feel for the people affected in the picture, but the beer cans floating is pretty funny



The flooding is indeed terrible.  This particular neighborhood floods a lot....hence the rent is cheap and that means that those who don't have much are forced to live here.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2016)

Surprised the Feds haven't bought it out and taken over the land.  I saw that happen at a few trailer parks in flood zones in VT when I lived up in Burlington.


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## River19 (Feb 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The flooding is indeed terrible.  This particular neighborhood floods a lot....hence the rent is cheap and that means that those who don't have much are forced to live here.



Is that the corner by Every Buddy's/Valley View?

Yikes


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

River19 said:


> Is that the corner by Every Buddy's/Valley View?
> 
> Yikes



Yep


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

There's a new creepy iPhone video posted of an empty base area and maybe an inch of snow on the ground.  Some people just don't get it.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 25, 2016)

The Tamarack closed due to "weather."  Huh???

This was a late decision after announcing originally that it would be open.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Tamarack closed due to "weather."  Huh???
> 
> This was a late decision after announcing originally that it would be open.



Yeah, those Tamaracks drip when they get wet.......  

They said that they did not want folks on icy roads.  Instead, Ary went out and made anotehr creepy stalker iPhone film of the empty base area.


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## oldtimer (Mar 1, 2016)

*Snow Making on Ledges*

So they blew quite a lot of snow on the Ledges trails.  They finished up on Saturday morning and folks skied it for a while.  It was great good fun but ski patrol had to close it because the wales were too steep on the back side and some less clever were launching them and crashing big.  Still closed Sunday & rumors that they are not sure they can groom them out.  Seems odd to me to make huge piles of snow that are essentials useless.  Does anyone know if they have gotten it groomed out?


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 1, 2016)

not sure if they can groom them out?   put the blade down and push, its a 350 HP (minimum) bulldozer...  They probably don't want to waste the fuel...


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## wtcobb (Mar 1, 2016)

Saving it to move around and fill in needed areas later?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> So they blew quite a lot of snow on the Ledges trails.  They finished up on Saturday morning and folks skied it for a while.  It was great good fun but ski patrol had to close it because the wales were too steep on the back side and some less clever were launching them and crashing big.  Still closed Sunday & rumors that they are not sure they can groom them out.  Seems odd to me to make huge piles of snow that are essentials useless.  Does anyone know if they have gotten it groomed out?



I skied it yesterday. Tasted pretty good to me, but it did seem like an odd trail to blow snow on. It didn't bother me. That's a favorite trail.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> not sure if they can groom them out?   put the blade down and push, its a 350 HP (minimum) bulldozer...  They probably don't want to waste the fuel...



Both are working (thank God).  Talked to one of the groomers on Friday. He said that they blew the head gasket on the "older" one last year and it still hasn't been fixed.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2016)

So I spent the better part of the last week up in the NEK and was fortunate enough to get some skiing in at Burke.  Needless to say it has been a brutal winter up there.

It was wonderful to see so many friends and family up there--Michelle G got a big hug from me (who was my 3rd Grade teacher and introduced me to skiing); the original trailboss was a bit bummed because of the weather but we had a wonderful lunch at Schillings with his Mrs. and a nice trip to the NE Ski Museum; the Dawn Patrol did not ski but had a great Apres Ski event at TOTB's home; Bruce R. is still tuning skis at the Village Sport Shop--congrats on the grandkids and upcoming wedding!; nice to meet Dave (ski patrol) and Scott S. who are Burke locals keeping the faith; and yes I saw Durwood still running things at the MBX.

Some observations:  the snow was not as bad as I thought...what there was...but on Sunday it got very icy after about 11 or so.  Lower Mountain is very thin.  The main runs up top had an OK but very hard base.  The new snow on Sunday made things decent for skiing.  They were blowing snow off and on while I was up, which is impressive.  Crowds, even for a race day, were very small.  

The place looks depressed and tired.  Buildings need new paint.  Lifties need new coats--there does not appear to be a standard uniform anymore with some wearing dirty hoodies.  MidBurke lodge needs new carpet.  The few employees I saw were largely deadpan.  The retail store had little Q stuff in it and a lot of soft-goods (Arc T'ryx?).  The base lodge on all three days I visited was dead.  A close look at the Tamarack Menu reveals that every option is pretty much a burger (or some version of it).  As one of my friends said you can no longer get a burger and a beer for lunch...weird.  Sunday greeted me with unshoveled stairs and blaring techno music in the empty lodge.  One NEVER could have gotten a seat at the Bear Den on an average weekend day.  They were all empty on all three days I visited.  The Burke "book" features a section on the Hotel, Community, and "Vision" with a big picture of Q.  Guess which section had the most words?  Yep, Q.  All in all, the resort looked like a captainless ship adrift in the sea.

In town there was a lot of energy.  East Burke Sports had some snazzy new Burke Mountain logoed Outdoor Research polypro hoodies (the Starburst Hoodie) that I had to have.  They also had shotglasses, lady-specific tops, and the famous and ubiquitous Burke Hoodie from last year that I saw at least four or five people wearing while up there...including a liftie at Burke (don't tell Ary!)  Had a nice talk with the guys there on my three visits and they are ready for biking.  Folks are ready for Mike's Tiki Bar.  

Lyndonville was also in good shape.  The Village Sport Shop is amazing now and I snagged some good deals on stuff there.  It was nice to see so many young folks in there working and the energy of the place.  I know that other businesses are doing well--Burke Mountain Confectioners cannot keep up with demand.  

The Hotel is beautiful, but is a White Whale right now.  It is so sad that it is not open.  Those "in the know" believe that Q owes about $3-4 million on it.  We cannot even fathom how much Q has lost this season.

So while Q is failing in so many ways, locals are actually stepping up and filling the void.  A local runs a shuttle van (the "F-Q Bus") from the mountain into town for folks to go out to eat; Foggy Goggle is getting good reviews and along with the Publick House are the apres spots; VSS is opening a new pub and bike shop at the Wildflower; Lyndon restaurants were packed despite a snowless weekend; EBS is selling great Burke stuff.  

My own visit demonstrates what is happening--I spent a considerable amount of $$$ on outdoor gear and goods at EBS and VSS.  Buying local felt great.  We ate at Hoagie's, the Diner, Everybuddy's (nice place to sit in the sun at the bar), and Schillings instead of the mountain.  I did not buy my tickets at the mountain but discounted on Liftopia.  My suitcase is carrying back Vermont whiskey, cheese, maple candies, and stuff from VSS and EBS.  The consensus is that it is time for Q to move on but in the meantime we are hoping for the best.


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## River19 (Mar 1, 2016)

TB = That about summarizes my every week in the area.........pretty honest review right there with no real leanings, it is what it is.  I say the town of East Burke is carrying on and keeping a solid heartbeat through the winter despite Q not because of Q. Gone is the River Garden Cafe and Willys (I don't consider the last version of the Pub a loss at all), in their place we have the Publick House and the Goggle......and in the summer the Tiki and Truck......

2016 is the year winter skipped.......


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 1, 2016)

i stayed on willoughby lake last weekend to ski at jay. we ate at publick house. it was not packed but was very busy. i was very pleasantly surprised, and the meal and vibe were great.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 1, 2016)

I heard that the food truck is not returning this summer.  Hopefully the food truck in downtown Lyndon will take its place.  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2016)

It is too bad that the River Garden is gone.....and that building is sitting empty.  What a waste.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

Bear Den bartender was laid off yesterday - Is the Bear Den really closed for the season ? Or is this the first step for an early closing of the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain ?


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## River19 (Mar 2, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> Bear Den bartender was laid off yesterday - Is the Bear Den really closed for the season ? Or is this the first step for an early closing of the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain ?



Well they made it all the way to March 1st........ :-(

Interesting.

VTK - I hope Rachel and her husband come back with the truck this year, it really provides the best lunch option for us from a bike perspective.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> Bear Den bartender was laid off yesterday - Is the Bear Den really closed for the season ? Or is this the first step for an early closing of the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain ?



Are they really selling so few drinks that they can't cover the bartender's wages?


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## River19 (Mar 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Are they really selling so few drinks that they can't cover the bartender's wages?



Haven't we learned enough to know looking for logic in the tea leaves is a fruitless effort on Burke Mountain?


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> Bear Den bartender was laid off yesterday - Is the Bear Den really closed for the season ? Or is this the first step for an early closing of the ski area formerly known as Burke Mountain ?



So now no place to get an adult beverage at lunch.


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## Edd (Mar 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> So now no place to get an adult beverage at lunch.



A fresh way to alienate customers. Bravo.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2016)

If I was a Burke regular, I'd bring my own keg and some friends to the MBL.


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## River19 (Mar 2, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If I was a Burke regular, I'd bring my own keg and some friends to the MBL.



Heck some of the lifties and remaining employees would probably join you at this point if you were to launch an informal kegger in the parking lot.

Can they at least make the Bear Den BYOB?

And if they fire their bartender, what exactly is the plan with the bars in the QHotel....unless the hotel isn't opening.......stop me if you have heard this before.......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> And if they fire their bartender, what exactly is the plan with the bars in the QHotel....unless the hotel isn't opening.......stop me if you have heard this before.......


You can't even make a hotel reservation until June.  The room rates are super cheap.  For a midweek in June the AAA rate for a studio is $86.  Oddly enough, the only rates that come up are government, AAA, and CAA.  The same room in July is only $97.

It won't let you make a reservation for weekends.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> So now no place to get an adult beverage at lunch.



Spring is their biggest season for the Bear Den. Just stupid.


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## JoeB-Z (Mar 2, 2016)

So let me get this straight. Q Jr. is not capable of profitably selling a beer to a thirsty skier? This may place him among the worst businessmen of all time.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

It is settled now.  There is only one solution: get Mike's Tiki Bar Open and have a big "Support the Community" party.  I also like the kegger idea at Burke Mountain.  

Where is a Pavilion Party when you need it?


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## River19 (Mar 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It is settled now.  There is only one solution: get Mike's Tiki Bar Open and have a big "Support the Community" party.  I also like the kegger idea at Burke Mountain.
> 
> Where is a Pavilion Party when you need it?



Pavilion?  Side of the toll road, has a fireplace and everything....and a roof.....perfect spot for a kegger  

Would be the most fun and most people Burke has seen all year......


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2016)

For many years there used to be what was called the Prohibition Party at Stowe.  A lot different situation as locals had a good relationship with the mountain.  The mountain would close the Chin Clip trail on a predetermined day in April and use snowcats to bring kegs up.  A locals only in the know party.  Last one was only about ten years ago before the mountain got concerned with liability.


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## 56fish (Mar 2, 2016)

*In the last century .*



deadheadskier said:


> If I was a Burke regular, I'd bring my own keg and some friends to the MBL.



Not really a Big Burke announcement but, us LSC students would get help from lifties loading kegs on chair; take 'em  off on top; drink with patrollers next to their shack.  Skied down in the dark once - way spooky!  :beer:


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> Pavilion?  Side of the toll road, has a fireplace and everything....and a roof.....perfect spot for a kegger
> 
> Would be the most fun and most people Burke has seen all year......



I've been to many a good party at that spot.  Unfortunately the ringleader has retired from doing it.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

56fish said:


> Not really a Big Burke announcement but, us LSC students would get help from lifties loading kegs on chair; take 'em  off on top; drink with patrollers next to their shack.  Skied down in the dark once - way spooky!  :beer:



Another tradition that has since ended was the Torchlight Parade.  I am so, so happy that I did one in February 2007.  It was the last "one" I believe.


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## zeke (Mar 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Another tradition that has since ended was the Torchlight Parade.  I am so, so happy that I did one in February 2007.  It was the last "one" I believe.



Pretty sure the liability of mixing whiskey, fire, darkness and skiing ended that one. The BMA kids did it after 07 so people could enjoy the sight without the risk of 3rd degree burns.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

zeke said:


> Pretty sure the liability of mixing whiskey, fire, darkness and skiing ended that one. The BMA kids did it after 07 so people could enjoy the sight without the risk of 3rd degree burns.



That was a (legitimate) concern.  I'm sure it could have been handled.  

And, FWIW, Burke is now saying, in light of criticism on FB, that they offered the bartender(s) "the same shifts" at the QTamarack and cafeteria.  They are also saying that the QTamarack will open daily at 11am.


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## yeggous (Mar 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That was a (legitimate) concern.  I'm sure it could have been handled.
> 
> And, FWIW, Burke is now saying, in light of criticism on FB, that they offered the bartender(s) "the same shifts" at the QTamarack and cafeteria.  They are also saying that the QTamarack will open daily at 11am.



Any chance angry comments from customers made them realise they need a lunch restaurant?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Any chance angry comments from customers made them realise they need a lunch restaurant?



Ha!  Honest prediction: they go about two more weeks and then close for the rest of the season.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That was a (legitimate) concern.  I'm sure it could have been handled.
> 
> And, FWIW, Burke is now saying, in light of criticism on FB, that they offered the bartender(s) "the same shifts" at the QTamarack and cafeteria.  They are also saying that the QTamarack will open daily at 11am.



No way Tamarack will be open for food during lunch - certainly on weekdays.  Most likely alcohol only.  And I bet that doesn't last very long.  


.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2016)

If the Tamarack is open for alcohol only there is no reason whatsoever to have closed Bear Den.  Shifting the location of alcohol sales is not "consolidation."


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2016)

And all of their problems could be solved by laying off or firing ONE person and we know who that is.........


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 2, 2016)

The media girl must be gone too... way to many silent spooky iPhone videos lately.


----------



## River19 (Mar 3, 2016)

Alright, I'm calling it now.....this thing is officially a dumpster fire......


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2016)

This was in today's Snow Report.  I don't agree with the decision, but appreciate "someone" at least diplomatically responding to the concerns:



> Even though we welcomed new snow accumulation yesterday, overall the season has been challenging at best.  We understand and appreciate your loyalty, commitment, and support by each and every one of you but sometimes, tough financial decisions need to be made.  In an effort to consolidate product, labor and resources, Mid Burke Lodge and the Bear Den Lounge will remain closed for the rest of the season with the exception of our last hurrah, Pond Skim on Saturday March 26th.  All food and beverage service will now be at the base lodge area with the Kingdom Cafeteria and Tamarack Sports Bar & Grille.  The Tamarack will open for beverage service daily at 11am with the Kingdom Cafeteria operating its normal hours.
> 
> This was not an easy decision but one that required a cost analysis and a perspective of  "what it will take" to dig deep, make sacrifices, and push forward through some challenging financial times.  The Mid Burke Lodge will remain open during ski operations (9am-4pm) for bathroom and locker accessibility.
> 
> We appreciate all of your support.


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 3, 2016)

Is it too small of a mountain with too few skier visits to profitably have 2 lodges with duplicate lodges/bars/restaurants?  I know its always been that way so hard to change or deal with change.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Is it too small of a mountain with too few skier visits to profitably have 2 lodges with duplicate lodges/bars/restaurants?  I know its always been that way so hard to change or deal with change.



This was a mistake made in the late 1970's when they opened the lower lodge.  There was a school of thought that said have the base stay at MidBurke so as not to duplicate services and costs.  But the Mountain Manager at the time really, really wanted a new lower base area.

The issue is that the Bear Den was the apres ski spot by default since the QTamarack was not open and folks didn't go there.  The Bear Den also used to be the local's starting point.  With spring coming this is THE PLACE that people go for beer and to sit outside.


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> This was a mistake made in the late 1970's when they opened the lower lodge.  There was a school of thought that said have the base stay at MidBurke so as not to duplicate services and costs.  But the Mountain Manager at the time really, really wanted a new lower base area.
> 
> The issue is that the Bear Den was the apres ski spot by default since the QTamarack was not open and folks didn't go there.  The Bear Den also used to be the local's starting point.  With spring coming this is THE PLACE that people go for beer and to sit outside.



I guess in theory the hotel needs food/bev service too so there should be a way to make it profitable.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 3, 2016)

I see the reasoning for moving all F&B to the base for the remainder of the year. The upper mtn has been very quiet (especially weekdays). There are a lot more people using the base lodge during the day. The mtn has to be seriously hemorrhaging $ and at this point in the year closing the Bear Den down is only going to upset a handful of locals that are probably already upset anyway. I'm almost to the point where I could see them shutting down the mountain entirely for the season if next week's thaw is bad enough. Hopefully, they can get everything squared away and be ready for next year.
It is almost time to put a fork in it.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I see the reasoning for moving all F&B to the base for the remainder of the year. The upper mtn has been very quiet (especially weekdays).  I'm almost to the point where I could see them shutting down the mountain entirely for the season if next week's thaw is bad enough.


I don't blame them for consolidating food sales, but I don't see why they can't have someone serving a few beers in the Bear Den.  

I'm surprised that they are making snow on High Meadows Pass.  This is an indication that they plan on being open for a little while longer.  It has to be diminishing returns at this point, but I guess you don't want to drive away season pass sales either.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 3, 2016)

With the hotel and new restaurant to be open next year (hopefully), I heard the plan for the Tamarack is to turn it into a Chuck-E-Cheese type venue (Q-E-Cheese). Make the base area totally oriented to kids. Compete with Smuggs for the families with kids crowds.

(note: I actually did not hear the above rumor anywhere, I'm simply trying to start one :razz: )


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## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> With the hotel and new restaurant to be open next year (hopefully), I heard the plan for the Tamarack is to turn it into a Chuck-E-Cheese type venue (Q-E-Cheese). Make the base area totally oriented to kids. Compete with Smuggs for the families with kids crowds.
> 
> (note: I actually did not hear the above rumor anywhere, I'm simply trying to start one :razz: )



While that wouldn't be a really bad idea the parking at the hotel is limited


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## the original trailboss (Mar 3, 2016)

I can see the mid-day beer break guys loving the idea of tromping up two flights of stairs for a beer in their ski boots.....  And, yes, March is (whoops, was) a huge Bear Den $$ month!  And, knowing full well I am repeating myself, the word is Unsustainable -period.


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## yeggous (Mar 3, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> I can see the mid-day beer break guys loving the idea of tromping up two flights of stairs for a beer in their ski boots.....  And, yes, March is (whoops, was) a huge Bear Den $$ month!  And, knowing full well I am repeating myself, the word is Unsustainable -period.



I feel really bad for them. Walking up stairs to get a beer is typically at many other mountains.


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## ironhippy (Mar 3, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I feel really bad for them. Walking up stairs to get a beer is typically at many other mountains.



You gotta go up 2 slippery flights of stairs to get beer at my local hill.

The interesting part is getting back down.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Let me see. At K Mahogany Ridge in K-1 is on the same level, maybe 2 steps down, bathrooms on the same level. At Skyeship base everything is on the same level. At Bear bar is on the same level but bathrooms are downstairs. At the Peak everything is on the same level, some walk down stairs to get there others ski to the side not requiring staircase. At Snowshed you do need to walk up one flight (not sure if there's bathrooms on the same level). Ramshead does not serve alcohol.

edit: forgot about the umbrella bars, I think they're 1 or 2 steps up, bathrooms on same level.


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## yeggous (Mar 3, 2016)

Just off the the top of my head...

Wildcat is up two flights. Attitash is up one flight. Crotched is up one flight from most sides. Bretton Woods is up one flight. Sunday River is up one flight. Shawnee is up one flight. Sunapee is up one flight. Nashoba is up one flight. Wachusett is up one flight. Mt Snow is up one flight.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2016)

2 bars at Attitash are no flights. Cantina and Bear.

This is the sad state of our season. We are discussing vertical feet walked to and from the bar!!!


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## steamboat1 (Mar 3, 2016)

At Stowe the bars are in the middle of the damn base lodge both at Mansfield & Spruce. Octagon is one flight down. Not sure about Midway or Cliff.


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2016)

I would crawl to get to a bar.........just sayin'........I'm not proud......Don't judge me.......


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## Cannonball (Mar 4, 2016)

At Copper there are escalators.  First time I'd seen that one!


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 4, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> At Copper there are escalators.  First time I'd seen that one!



So That's where Powder spent the money for the South Ridge Lift...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 4, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> This is the sad state of our season. We are discussing vertical feet walked to and from the bar!!!



Haha!  "Hey, how much Vert today?"

"  24500k/140'  "   

:lol::lol:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> I would crawl to get to a bar.........just sayin'........I'm not proud......Don't judge me.......


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 4, 2016)

Nature of the season. Normally a apres beer or two would be second nature and folks wouldn't be worried about steps up or down to bathrooms or bars and just accept it as part of the experience, but not this year! Still got 2 more trips planned over the next two weeks, but what a disappointment.  Hopefully Sugarbush and Smuggs early next week (hoping for warm enough conditions to enjoy springish conditions) and Stowe the following week pan out.  What a year.  15 days at the end if this works.  Oh well....


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## VTKilarney (Mar 5, 2016)

Another article in today's Caledonian Record.  The hotel came in under budget but $5.5 million is still owed. The hotel will remain closed for the foreseeable future.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2016)

Can someone post the article? 

From What little I've read, it looks like the Caledonian buried the lead yet again. The opening paragraph states that Q owes him $4.2 million. And that the state has $1.3 million in the account that they are not releasing.  

Someone needs to queue up the quote from Masskier and others who were adamant that they had fully funded the hotel. It is very clear that they did not.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Can someone post the article?
> 
> From What little I've read, it looks like the Caledonian buried the lead yet again. The opening paragraph states that Q owes him $4.2 million. And that the state has $1.3 million in the account that they are not releasing.
> 
> ...



And remember the excuse that the amount was owed because it went over budget?  I guess whoever said that was bullshitting as well.  

EDIT:  It was Big Wave Dave who said this: "And the fact that the hotel is 1.6% over budget and therefore unfunded is a non-event.  That number on any project should be considered a victory."

He was right. It was a non event. As in, it wasn't true.


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## chuckstah (Mar 5, 2016)

Anyone ski today?  Planning to use a voucher before the trail count goes to zero. Any woods?  Bringing my worst rock skis.


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## Brad J (Mar 5, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> Anyone ski today?  Planning to use a voucher before the trail count goes to zero. Any woods?  Bringing my worst rock skis.



I did ,the groomed was great , natural trails open were very thin, did not even think about woods. Over all was he best groomer skiing all year.


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## chuckstah (Mar 5, 2016)

Thanks. Heading up either tomorrow morning or Monday before the warm up.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 5, 2016)

Agreed that it was the best groomer skiing of the year - by far.  I skied Powderhorn once.  Once was plenty.  The woods are not in play.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2016)

Just missed it......though my skiing there last week was decent. 


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## faQ (Mar 5, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> Anyone ski today?  Planning to use a voucher before the trail count goes to zero. Any woods?  Bringing my worst rock skis.



It's pretty rough. 


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Another article in today's Caledonian Record.  The hotel came in under budget but $5.5 million is still owed. The hotel will remain closed for the foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> .



I read the full article and will try to repost it when I can.  One idea floated last weekend in our ski group discussion was that Davis knows he can't bite the hand that feeds him, and let's face it, Shumlin is EXTREMELY unpopular.  So who do you criticize?  The State.  This despite the obvious fact that the real issue is that Q did not raise enough money to build it despite their repeated claims that it would open on time and that they had raised the money.  And that is exactly what he did here.  

With the current situation, the project being $5.5 million underfunded, I place 90% of the blame on Q and 10% on the State.  Q knew that he did not have it fully sold when he began and was confident he would fully fund it before the ultimate deadline.  He did not.  They ran into serious headwinds including other competition, a weak world economy, and the fact that they've already tapped A LOT of these investors.  They have been way over confident in their ability to manage these projects based upon the Tram Haus and some of the projects at Jay that look good and have supposedly increased business in the short term.  $600 million of projects was very, very ambitious and is now proving to have been overly ambitious.  Q deserves blame for that.  Free money can lead one to make bad business decisions as appears to be the case here.    

I place 10% on the State, at this time, because their reaction might very well have scared off other investors.  But we do not know for sure and it is just speculation at this point.  

The State does deserve major criticism as to how they have (or have not) managed the EB-5 program.  As a poster or two have said, "it is a great Center because investors know that the State of Vermont is running it and overseeing it."  Guess what?  They weren't overseeing it at all.  They weren't being neutral and there was an obvious conflict of interest with the coordinator/regulator supposedly overseeing things one day and then crowing from the rafters as to how awesome the projects were on another day.  I think that this really undermined the credibility of the whole program in Vermont.


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## faQ (Mar 6, 2016)

So...skied with the grom today. The lower mountain was really nice today. We met up with some family in town for lunch but silly us, no food at the tamarack until 2:00. We were encouraged to get food in cafeteria and carry it upstairs though.  When leaving, my kid wanted to play the claw-game. Whoops, it's broken, there goes that dollar. How about we get some change and play this game over here...whoops, change machine is broken too.  Oh...and when you order a drink sitting at a high top, don't think they are going to bring it to you, that's just silly.  Did I mention, snow on the lower mountain was really good today?  It really was. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 6, 2016)

Sad... just so sad. 

Someone needs to make an offer that can't be refused...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 6, 2016)

Bill Stenger is talking to someone by the Sherburne lift.  Hopefully it's a claw machine repairman.   


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Bill Stenger is talking to someone by the Sherburne lift.  Hopefully it's a claw machine repairman.
> 
> 
> .



He's making a sales pitch.....for a $5.5 million investment.


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## LONGBOARDR (Mar 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Bill Stenger is talking to someone by the Sherburne lift.  Hopefully it's a claw machine repairman.
> 
> 
> .



Well with the pink slips he has been doling out at Jay, I can understand why he is hanging at Burke


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2016)

Here's the article....



> BURKE — The  new  $50  million  hotel at  QBurke Mountain Resort is ready to open for customers.  But it will remain closed for the foreseeable future… until the State of Vermont and the hotel’s general contractor can agree on a payment plan.  Jerry Davis, president of PeakCM which built the hotel, said this week he is owed $1.3 million from an EB-5 escrow fund the state controls, and another $4.2 million from the hotel owners.
> 
> Davis says he trusts the resort owners, Bill Stenger and Ari Quiros, more than he does the state. “These guys have always paid their bill on time to me,” Davis said.  Meanwhile “No one can ﬁgure out what exactly has been released by the state,” Davis said.Dealing with the bureaucracy and “all this crap with the state,” has also crippled Stenger’s ability to recruit investors, Davis thinks.
> 
> ...


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## oldtimer (Mar 7, 2016)

Bear Den Closed- all the usual suspects were at the pavilion on Saturday.  A nice time, but it did appear that some were perhaps over indulging?

If I were to look at the most profitable 1,000 sq ft at Burke Mountain, I would have to say the Bear Den.  2 Bluebird days, plenty of regulars who often consume a beverage after (and during?) the ski day- closed. 

ALSO-  BMA ran some sort of little kid event on Sunday.  Mid Burke was backed with people with $-  why not service them?   This defies even Q'logic.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

What's mind boggling is that the Tamarack kitchen opens at 2:00 PM on Sunday.  Why would you not open it just a couple of hours earlier for lunch?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

Yep, it all just defies logic. Any income is better than no income. Like it was said earlier, how much would it REALLY cost to staff a bartender?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2016)

When I was an F&B Manager at Wisp in Maryland, I often feuded with the resort GM as he'd have me shut down services early and inconsistently on all but the peak weeks of the season. 

He always put it this way.  He would hold up a dollar bill and say, "You see this dollar bill? If we do everything right throughout the day, for every dollar we bring in we get to keep a quarter.  However, if we realize it's going to be slow and don't operate, we get to keep the whole dollar."  I would always argue he had faulty logic because the second dollar of revenue wouldn't exist.  Ary must operate under similar concepts. 

It was a bad way of doing business and no surprise to me they eventually declared bankruptcy and were forced to sell.


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## Edd (Mar 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> What's mind boggling is that the Tamarack kitchen opens at 2:00 PM on Sunday.



I've never seen a ski area do that.


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## River19 (Mar 7, 2016)

Edd said:


> I've never seen a ski area do that.



And you have also never seen a ski area slap a random letter in front of the name either..........none of it follows any real logic, just QLogic....

In order for me to follow some QLogic, I usually just ask myself "self, what would a straight up crack head do right here?".... and that gets me close to QLogic


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> When I was an F&B Manager at Wisp in Maryland, I often feuded with the resort GM as he'd have me shut down services early and inconsistently on all but the peak weeks of the season.
> 
> He always put it this way.  He would hold up a dollar bill and say, "You see this dollar bill? If we do everything right throughout the day, for every dollar we bring in we get to keep a quarter.  However, if we realize it's going to be slow and don't operate, we get to keep the whole dollar."  I would always argue he had faulty logic because the second dollar of revenue wouldn't exist.  Ary must operate under similar concepts.
> 
> It was a bad way of doing business and no surprise to me they eventually declared bankruptcy and were forced to sell.


I think his logic was flawed too... What about the dollar he had to hold up on the days not operated? He didn't generate it in the first place obviously, so you get to keep 100% of zero, it's still zero. Not to mention the overhead that is there anyways, no matter if you operate or not...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

River19 said:


> And you have also never seen a ski area slap a random letter in front of the name either..........none of it follows any real logic, just QLogic....
> 
> In order for me to follow some QLogic, I usually just ask myself "self, what would a straight up crack head do right here?".... and that gets me close to QLogic



Sad but true.  I think he needs to go build airplanes.....the sooner the better.


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## tumbler (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Sad but true.  I think he needs to go build airplanes.....the sooner the better.



Hopefully they can fly....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Hopefully they can fly....



They will fly if he says so.  That's his attitude.


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 7, 2016)

river19 said:


> and you have also never seen a ski area slap a random letter in front of the name either..........none of it follows any real logic, just qlogic....
> 
> In order for me to follow some qlogic, i usually just ask myself "self, what would a straight up crack head do right here?".... And that gets me close to qlogic



lol.   +1


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## halfpintvt (Mar 7, 2016)

I have heard a rumor again from 3 different people that the Mountain is filing for "Chapter 21". I don't know what that is. The only bankruptcy filings I am familiar with are Chapter 7 (straight discharge) and Chapter 13 (reorganization-work out a payment plan with creditors) Has anyone else heard this rumor? Does anyone know what Chapter 21 is?


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## River19 (Mar 7, 2016)

Never heard of Chapter 21 being "filed" like a bankruptcy, however I do believe in VT Chapter 21 has provisions governing or pertaining to Limited Liability Companies..........

I'm sure someone knows more than I do but......without any more real information it is tough to make sense of that rumor....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

River19 said:


> Never heard of Chapter 21 being "filed" like a bankruptcy, however I do believe in VT Chapter 21 has provisions governing or pertaining to Limited Liability Companies..........
> 
> I'm sure someone knows more than I do but......without any more real information it is tough to make sense of that rumor....



Chapter 21 is the labor code, so I doubt that.


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## ChicoKat (Mar 7, 2016)

There appears to provisions for mediation and arbitration under Chapter 21 in VT.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

ChicoKat said:


> There appears to provisions for mediation and arbitration under Chapter 21 in VT.



Right.  For labor issues.  And if you look closely you see that those sections have been repealed. 

Perhaps it has to do with the Hotel and mediation/arbitration on the payment.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

Bankruptcy rumors are running rampant right now.  Does the mountain itself have creditors?  One rumor is that they took on debt to cover operational expenses.  

At this point rumors are just rumors.  


.


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## River19 (Mar 7, 2016)

TB - VT Title 11 Chapter 21 is all about LLCs which include everything from formation to dissolving the business etc.  I find Sub chapters 5 to 8 interesting.

Of course this is all wildly unsubstantiated rumors.....which are stemming from the recent facts surrounding the $5.5 M owed on the hotel and knowing that it is budget whack a mole up on the mountain as far as operations go.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

If there is going to be a bankruptcy proceeding looking at state law is a waste of time.  A bankruptcy would be a federal proceeding governed by federal law.

Could someone have mistaken "Chapter 11" for "Chapter 21"?  Chapter 11 is intended for the reorganization of a business.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

River19 said:


> TB - VT Title 11 Chapter 21 is all about LLCs which include everything from formation to dissolving the business etc.  I find Sub chapters 5 to 8 interesting.
> 
> Of course this is all wildly unsubstantiated rumors.....which are stemming from the recent facts surrounding the $5.5 M owed on the hotel and knowing that it is budget whack a mole up on the mountain as far as operations go.



Ah, OK.  I misspoke.  I said Title 21.  I see Title 11, Chapter 21 is the LLC chapter (soon to go) and my understanding is that they do have at least one LLC running things and maybe other entities.


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## ChicoKat (Mar 7, 2016)

Would anyone know if the mountain ski and bike operations are one in the same. Are they under separate entities? 
Would hate to see the complete mismanagement and incompetence demonstrated this winter spill over to the bike park.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

ChicoKat said:


> Would anyone know if the mountain ski and bike operations are one in the same. Are they under separate entities?
> Would hate to see the complete mismanagement and incompetence demonstrated this winter spill over to the bike park.



Pretty sure it is the same entity.  Though they may have separate operating entities, it all runs back to Ary.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

Here's one entity....note the registered addresses:



> Business Name:	Q BURKE MOUNTAIN RESORT, LLC
> Business ID:	0007489
> Business Type:	Foreign Limited Liability Company
> Business Status:	Active
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

Second one:



> Business Name:	Q BURKE MOUNTAIN RESORT GP SERVICES, LLC
> Business ID:	0278669
> Business Type:	Domestic Limited Liability Company
> Business Status:	Active
> ...



Last one:



> Business Name:	Q BURKE MOUNTAIN RESORT, HOTEL AND CONFERENCE CENTER L.P.
> Business ID:	0278945
> Business Type:	Domestic Limited Partnership
> Business Status:	Active
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

The bankruptcy filing rumor is now on FB being discussed amongst some of my friends.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The bankruptcy filing rumor is now on FB being discussed amongst some of my friends.



Yeah, as far as rumors go this was has taken a strong hold.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Yeah, as far as rumors go this was has taken a strong hold.



Have you seen anything in the advance reports?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

In other news....I have located Ary's ideal customer:  Suzanne Q. Burke, Esq. of Garden City, NY.  



http://www.hbhesq.com/#!suzanne-q-burke/c5vv


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2016)

Wouldn't Q senior have enough personal $$ to make this all go away and open the hotel.  I thought the prevailing thought was he was an extremely high net worth individual.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Wouldn't Q senior have enough personal $$ to make this all go away and open the hotel.  I thought the prevailing thought was he was an extremely high net worth individual.



I had that thought too.  But then I remembered that the goal is NOT to run a ski resort.  It is to make money off of EB-5.  If the EB-5 party is over, why would Quiros dump any money into the resort?  He wants to collect his winnings and not lose any of it.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I had that thought too.  But then I remembered that the goal is NOT to run a ski resort.  It is to make money off of EB-5.  If the EB-5 party is over, why would Quiros dump any money into the resort?  He wants to collect his winnings and not lose any of it.



+ 1. It's all about cashing out. 


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## halfpintvt (Mar 7, 2016)

Don't forget the original LLC, Burke 2000



Business Information                      
Business Details Business Name:                                         BURKE 2000 LLCBusiness ID:0011175Business Type: Domestic Limited Liability CompanyBusiness Status:Active LLC Subtype:Manager ManagedDid the LLC have members at the time of filing?NoBusiness Description:ANY LAWFUL PURPOSEFiscal Year Month:6Date of Incorporation / Registration Date:09/13/2000  Designated Office Business Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USADesignated Office Mailing Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USACitizenship / State of Incorporation:Domestic/VTLast Annual Report Year:2015  
 
Principals Information 
Name/Title:Physical Address:ARIEL QUIROS/Manager111 NE 1ST STREET 4TH FL, MIAMIQBURKE MOUNTAIN RESORT LLC/MemberNONE

 
Registered Agent Information Name:CT CORPORATION SYSTEMPhysical Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USAMailing Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USA
 
Trade Name Information 
Trade NameBusiness IDBusiness StatusOLD CUTTER INN0244463InactiveBURKE CROSS COUNTRY SKI CENTER0246584Inactive


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Don't forget the original LLC, Burke 2000
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting. So Burke2000 is still active?

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## halfpintvt (Mar 7, 2016)

They also have Burke Mountain Operating Company and Mountain Road Management.


Business Information 
Business Details Business Name:                                         BURKE MT. OPERATING COMPANYBusiness ID:0120834Business Type:Domestic Profit CorporationBusiness Status:Active Business Description:ANY LAWFUL BUSINESSFiscal Year Month:12Date of Incorporation / Registration Date:09/13/2000  Principal Office Business Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAPrincipal Office Mailing Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USACitizenship / State of Incorporation:Domestic/VTLast Annual Report Year:2015  
 
Principals Information 
Name/Title:Physical Address:ARY QUIROS                                                                                          /President223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAARY QUIROS/Director223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USA

 
Registered Agent Information Name:CT CORPORATION SYSTEMPhysical Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USAMailing Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USA
 
Trade Name Information 
Trade NameBusiness IDBusiness StatusBURKE MOUNTAIN LODGING0241216InactiveTAMARACK GRILL  THE0248568ActiveBEAR DEN LOUNGE0249533Active


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## halfpintvt (Mar 7, 2016)

Business Information                     
 
Business Details Business Name:                                         MOUNTAIN ROAD MANAGEMENT COMPANY                                     Business ID:0115176Business Type:Domestic Profit CorporationBusiness Status:Active   Business Description:Not Available Fiscal Year Month:12Date of Incorporation / Registration Date:05/22/1996   Principal Office Business Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAPrincipal Office Mailing Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USACitizenship / State of Incorporation:Domestic/VT  Last Annual Report Year:2015  
  
Principals Information 
Name/Title:Physical Address:ARY QUIROS/Director223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAARY QUIROS                                                                                          /Director223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USA
 
  
Registered Agent Information Name:JAMES G WHEELER JRPhysical Address: 90 PROSPECT ST PO BOX 99, ST JOHNSBURY, VT, 05819, USA                                    Mailing Address: 90 PROSPECT ST PO BOX 99, ST JOHNSBURY, VT, 05819, USA                                    
  
Trade Name InformationNo Trade Name(s) associated to this business.



and:


Business Information                      
Business Details Business Name:                                         BURKE MOUNTAIN WATER COMPANY                                     Business ID:0117828Business Type:Domestic Profit CorporationBusiness Status:Active   Business Description:Not Available Fiscal Year Month:12Date of Incorporation / Registration Date:04/27/1998   Principal Office Business Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAPrincipal Office Mailing Address:223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USACitizenship / State of Incorporation:Domestic/VT  Last Annual Report Year:2015  
  
Principals Information 
Name/Title:Physical Address:ARY QUIROS/President223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USAARY QUIROS                                                                                          /Director223 SHERBURNE LODGE ROAD, EAST BURKE, VT, 05832, USA
 
  
Registered Agent Information Name:CT CORPORATION SYSTEMPhysical Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USA                                    Mailing Address: 400 CORNERSTONE DR #240, WILLISTON, VT, 05495, USA                                    
  
Trade Name InformationNo Trade Name(s) associated to this business.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1. It's all about cashing out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



If true, wouldn't this also apply to Jay?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The bankruptcy filing rumor is now on FB being discussed amongst some of my friends.



Where is that? I haven't come across it yet...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 7, 2016)

Cripes, I'm glad I wrote a clause about bankruptcy into my photo consignment agreement.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Where is that? I haven't come across it yet...



Unless you have mutual FB friends with me, who are Burke locals and businessfolk, you're not going to see it.  It is certainly not on the QFB page.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

Channel 7 is also reporting:



> The hotel at Q Burke will not open until after June 1, according to the resort reservation line. The hotel was originally scheduled to open in December, but a series of delays have pushed the opening date until later this year. No reason for the most recent delay has been announced yet.



Too bad they will miss LSC graduation, part of wedding season, and Memorial Day.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Unless you have mutual FB friends with me, who are Burke locals and businessfolk, you're not going to see it.  It is certainly not on the QFB page.



Pretty sure Michael L. Bouchard is our only friend in common.   Was just wondering if I had missed something.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Pretty sure Michael L. Bouchard is our only friend in common.   Was just wondering if I had missed something.



You may be right 

Nothing other than what is discussed here.  I would put what has been said in the rumor category.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

The only thing new that I saw was in reviews. Hadn't seen that before.



> Jerry Davis Abby,  I'm not going to get into thus via Facebook but you are not correct and  Cindy is. The sole issue is the State not approving construction costs  that are legitimate and contractually owed. If this was done, the hotel  would be open, regardless of if they had all the funding or not. I have  worked with this group for many years and them paying their bills is not  an issue at this time.  Jerry Davis (PeakCM)


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

If Davis was convinced that Stenger/Quiros would pay their bill he would have released the certificate of occupancy.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> If Davis was convinced that Stenger/Quiros would pay their bill he would have released the certificate of occupancy.



Exactly.  And, again, he is criticizing the State because it is a good scapegoat.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

Yep. He's wants his cut off the EB5 cash cow as well, so he's gonna blame the State too, not his possible easy source of future income.


----------



## River19 (Mar 7, 2016)

Well, it seems like every time we have speculated we have been more right than wrong no matter how much the remaining supporters of Jr etc. said we are all Negative Nellies.........I'm not sure they are really heading towards folding but they are certainly taking consistent hits to the head and staggering against the ropes at this point.

I  have said this several times in the past 6 months or so.......that I thought December 11th was aggressive and I didn't think they would hit that.......I thought they wouldn't miss the Christmas/NYE Holiday season as that was the real kickoff for the season and a real money maker if you have F&B and lodging up and running and some snow.  I always assumed they would struggle to make snow.....I never thought they would miss MLK, President's weekend and School vacation week......and now, let's be honest, they are in jeopardy of missing the opening and part of the Bike season.......seriously?

And it isn't just the hotel......the whole mountain is in "what is going to be open today" mode......and that is where things seem ugly for me

Just wow........


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Channel 7 is also reporting:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad they will miss LSC graduation, part of wedding season, and Memorial Day.



When I graduated from LSC we had our graduation party there at Bear Den and there was a lot of bar sales going on - but the bartender is gone so - hmmmmm!


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## zeke (Mar 7, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Wouldn't Q senior have enough personal $$ to make this all go away and open the hotel.  I thought the prevailing thought was he was an extremely high net worth individual.



Fairly certain he made more than what is owed on the hotel on the "sale" of the land to themselves. If memory serves it was  7 or 9 million. And I'd bet anything that the entity that owned that land "solely owned by the q family" was paid first.

But I could be wrong


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

zeke said:


> Fairly certain he made more than what is owed on the hotel on the "sale" of the land to themselves. If memory serves it was  7 or 9 million. And I'd bet anything that the entity that owned that land "solely owned by the q family" was paid first.
> 
> But I could be wrong



No, I believe it. And now they mysteriously don't have any source of money to pay it off and open it. Interesting. 


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## VTKilarney (Mar 7, 2016)

From VTDigger:



> The plant is to be built on land originally purchased by GSI of Dade County, Florida, a company owned by Quiros. GSI bought the former Bogner plant and 25 acres in Newport for $3.1 million in September 2011, according to land records. Investors entered into a purchase and sale agreement for seven acres of the land as part of the 2012 offering memorandum, which was verified in a statement from Quiros. The agreement lists the price as $6 million, and the payment was to be made by Jan. 31, 2013.




.


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## zeke (Mar 7, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> From VTDigger:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Between the eb5 admin fees and these ridiculous land deals-that's the business they're in. Not ski resorts or bike parks or aquatic centers.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

zeke said:


> Between the eb5 admin fees and these ridiculous land deals-that's the business they're in. Not ski resorts or bike parks or aquatic centers.



You see what the game is?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 8, 2016)

Just an EB5 money grab by selling back and forth between the shell company's.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

If the rumors of bankruptcy are true (and I don't know that they are), it is well worth the time to go back and read this article:
http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/14/community-fears-history-will-repeat-q-burke-mountain/


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

Just want to stress again that the bankruptcy is only a rumor that is flying around the town and here now.  I think it is fair to say that they have had a really bad year and that they need to make some changes.  

This was one comment that was made on FB yesterday amongst my contacts was that a bankruptcy would be a good thing.  I don't think so.  Local vendors and folks would get stuck with the unpaid bills.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

Just found one of the FB comments:



> I have also hear that... Rumors are flying but as of yesterday there is nothing listed on the VT bankruptcy courts website, but if this was done last week, it takes a few days. With that said, if they were to file it would be Chapter 11 and would be a restructuring of debt and payment plans to creditors with a possible chapter 21 filing too. I think Burke is like the auto industry or Wall Street bail outs, it's too big to fail and would drastically effect any future EB5 money for future development. If this is true my personal take is that it would not be necessarily a bad thing... It will get them out of unsecured debt so they can move forward, and hopefully grow.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm still scratching my head over this "Chapter 21" business.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> If the rumors of bankruptcy are true (and I don't know that they are), it is well worth the time to go back and read this article:
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/01/14/community-fears-history-will-repeat-q-burke-mountain/



This quote jumps out....as mere words and not understanding:



> Quiros understands the community doesn’t like the new name, he says. But he believes they’ll come to appreciate the value it brings, once he proves the long-term value of his plan. He thought about public perception “300 percent,” and stands by his decision.
> 
> “If I make a mistake here, I lose everything! I lose everything,” Quiros says. “Because in the world market, I don’t get the money from a bank. I get from word of mouth.”



He clearly doesn't understand that the word of mouth for him is not good at all.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm still scratching my head over this "Chapter 21" business.



Me too.  The poster does not understand bankruptcy law.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

If there is a bankruptcy, and it is a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, existing management could potentially stay in place.  This is nothing to cheer about.

But I am not so sure that bankruptcy is really going to happen since it would truly spell the end of EB-5.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 8, 2016)

What exactly are we talking about with bankruptcy? I am assuming that you mean the hotel and conference center. Or are we talking about the ski resort? As just recently posted, aren't these two separate LLCs? As far as the comment that Steiger and Quiros are only in this for the EB-5 money, and not the skiing, I have to disagree with that. I would think that looking at how well Jay Peak is doing and what growth they had since using the EB-5 program to expand, would negate that perception.


----------



## River19 (Mar 8, 2016)

I remember that article well.........I really wish they would write a folow-up/update on the current situation etc.

That being said, bankruptcy wouldn't be a good thing on many fronts, like TB mentioned it screws the locals owed money but also has throws property values into a strange place etc.

The whole thing is still in a place where things can bounce back...provided there is a change at the helm and it doesn't look like Daddy is willing to do that.

IF they can make it to the summer season and these are big IFs and get the hotel opened up and squared away (as in good staff, good food, good service etc.) and get the bike park cranking and fully engage the wedding market and nail those.....they have somewhat of a chance to get some cash flow going but I'm not sure it will be enough to offset the costs of running that big hotel.

No matter what they do up on the mountain they are still faced with the issue that there is no "scene" up there for MTBers like the Tiki Bar and East Burke has developed into.  There is some potential on the back patio where Brew fest has taken place but that has turned into a Q suck fest as well.

Additionally, the "scene" is picking up on Darling Hill around the Wildflower including Village's soon to be new shop across the street from where they are currently and anything up on the mountain will be a distant 3rd option if even that.

I do get the vibe that if Q can't package a project with some significant EB-5 qualifying infrastructure build he can't get stuff done.   Once something is built, I seriously question if there is any real operational skill set in his organization other than what has been developed at Jay.  It doesn't look like there is any deep pool of working capital to run a ski mountain like Burke let alone a 3-4 season resort with hotel.

Ski resorts like Equestrian pursuits......you can become a millionaire doing either of them, however you need to start out as a billionaire.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

mbedle said:


> What exactly are we talking about with bankruptcy? I am assuming that you mean the hotel and conference center. Or are we talking about the ski resort? As just recently posted, aren't these two separate LLCs? As far as the comment that Steiger and Quiros are only in this for the EB-5 money, and not the skiing, I have to disagree with that. I would think that looking at how well Jay Peak is doing and what growth they had since using the EB-5 program to expand, would negate that perception.



The more cynical would point out some key things outside of Jay.  First, the AncBio deal that is shady on multiple levels.  The AncBio company was shut down, Q uses EB-5 money to buy the "license" of their technology at some high amount, and then he buys the 25 acre land and sells a slice of it to the EB-5 investors for more than the entire parcel is worth.  That does not concern you?  The second big thing is that they buy downtown Newport buildings, level them, and now have empty holes in downtown.  They clearly assumed that they would raise the money to build it but don't have it.  

As to Burke, I read and hear a lot about how committed they are to the mountain and how Ary is a military man, etc.  I have got to say that the mountain, and employees, were the most depressed I have ever seen up there.  Employees literally wear rags--dirty coats with logos from previous Burke operations.  The J-Bar looked like hell.  MidBurke had ripped carpet that had not been vacuumed.  I know that one groomer broke last year and Ary refused to pay to have it fixed.  And on a personal level, I have heard multiple people say that Ary can't even mow his own lawn and his house looks like hell.  It's really sad.  Actions speak a lot louder than words and they can't even put on an appearance of trying to do it right.  If they were committed they would have moved Ary to somewhere else and tried to get a good manager in there to run it--hell, they'd at least put a few coats of paint here and there and properly clothe their employees. 

A lot of folks think that the whole game was to put someone else's money into it, cash out what they could, and flip it.  It seems more and more that this is the plan.   

The big distinction with Jay is that they have Stenger running it.  He does a good job with the resort operations.  They let him run it and it is working.  They have been there for a longer time than Burke--I think that Q and Stenger bought that in 2002 or so.  It is working....so we think.  With Burke, I am beginning to think that the idea was, "hey, we just do what Bill does.  How hard is it to run a ski area?"  and the end game was to invest other people's money into it and flip it.  

I hear a lot of hot air but see a ship with no captain.


----------



## Quietone (Mar 8, 2016)

Don't forget about Mr. Davis as he's more of a culprit than anyone else.  VT Heating & Ventilating is completely done with their portion of the job and Jerry still owes them a million dollars!  And there are many smaller vendors owed money that really can't afford to take the hits.  As someone said earlier, "If Mr. Davis thought the Q's were going to pay their bills, why doesn't he just release the CO and wait for his payment".  Any normal person would do this at least allowing the hotel to bring in revenue.  All weddings this year have been cancelled and because of Mr. Davis Brides and Grooms are scrambling!  PeakCM is not a very user friendly company and not good for the NEK. Bill Stenger and EB5 work, at least they did at Jay Peak before PeakCM got involved.  Let's put the blame where it's due.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

I also heard a rumor that all weddings had been cancelled.  But the rumor I heard said that all weddings through 2016 have been cancelled.  What does that tell you as far as the likelihood of the hotel opening for the summer?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

So weddings for this year are cancelled?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So weddings for this year are cancelled?



That's what people are saying.


----------



## River19 (Mar 8, 2016)

Can someone clarify what the talk about canceled weddings is?  I assume you heard that some pre-booked 2016 weddings have been canceled?  If that is true were they May weddings?

Figures the only function they had at the hotel was that wedding expo and some poor schmucks booked it thinking Q  actually had their shit together and then boom.....plans scuttled with a few months to go.....good luck.


----------



## Quietone (Mar 8, 2016)

Yes!  All weddings in 2016!  Not just May, but all!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

River19 said:


> Can someone clarify what the talk about canceled weddings is?  I assume you heard that some pre-booked 2016 weddings have been canceled?  If that is true were they May weddings?
> 
> Figures the only function they had at the hotel was that wedding expo and some poor schmucks booked it thinking Q  actually had their shit together and then boom.....plans scuttled with a few months to go.....good luck.



The reason for the Wedding Expo going forward was that the proceeds went to charity.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

Quietone said:


> Yes!  All weddings in 2016!  Not just May, but all!



Holy crap.  I was hoping that the rumor was false.


----------



## Quietone (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The reason for the Wedding Expo going forward was that the proceeds went to charity.



And Mr. Davis decided to be "nice" and let them open it up without the CO.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

The whole thing boggles my mind.  The hotel is built, but NOBODY can figure out how to bridge the $5.5 million or so that is owed?  The only thing that makes sense to me is that Quiros is truly throwing in the towel on EB-5 and is running away with whatever profits he has made.  I'd like to think that this is not the case.  There are definitely mixed messages.  Siobahn, the front desk manager, just posted a blog entry.  Why would you have people like that on payroll if you didn't plan on opening the hotel forthwith?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

Quietone said:


> And Mr. Davis decided to be "nice" and let them open it up without the CO.



Yep.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The whole thing boggles my mind.  The hotel is built, but NOBODY can figure out how to bridge the $5.5 million or so that is owed?  The only thing that makes sense to me is that Quiros is truly throwing in the towel on EB-5 and is running away with whatever profits he has made.  I'd like to think that this is not the case.  There are definitely mixed messages.  Siobahn, the front desk manager, just posted a blog entry.  Why would you have people like that on payroll if you didn't plan on opening the hotel forthwith?



I thought that Siobahn was in marketing (?)


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The reason for the Wedding Expo going forward was that the proceeds went to charity.



Ah ha. That answers that question.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought that Siobahn was in marketing (?)



From her January 1 blog post:


> Introductions first, my name is Siobhan. I’m a Burke local, a Northeast Kingdom native, a novice skier and the Front Office Manager for the new Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

They don't seem to be too serious about booking rooms for the summer.  If you try to book online, you can't book any weekend nights.  For weeknights, the only rates that come up are government, AAA, and CAA.

It's pretty sad that North Korea is doing a better job of running a ski resort than the management of Q Burke.


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 8, 2016)

short sighted of you-  clearly they are fully booked for all weekend nights.

Word on the street from someone who is often walking in and out of the admin building is that there is no real optimism about opening the hotel this summer.  AND at the end of March all mtn ops including the Tamarack will be shut down, "until such time as we chose to operate again".  That is, with no commitment to the summer.   hope that last part is a mis-understanding on this person's part.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> short sighted of you-  clearly they are fully booked for all weekend nights.



Good one!  Love it!  :lol:



> Word on the street from someone who is often walking in and out of the admin building is that there is no real optimism about opening the hotel this summer.  AND at the end of March all mtn ops including the Tamarack will be shut down, "until such time as we chose to operate again".  That is, with no commitment to the summer.   hope that last part is a mis-understanding on this person's part.



Now this would really be stupid....and really undercut property values up there and rentals.


----------



## River19 (Mar 8, 2016)

Well here is some good news, the Vermont Food Truck will be back at the Tiki this summer...........to hell with Q......


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

River19 said:


> Well here is some good news, the Vermont Food Truck will be back at the Tiki this summer...........to hell with Q......



The Community, and KT, will continue on and be fine.  But can you imagine how things could be if the Mountain was accommodating and had the Hotel open?  There could be a lot of great energy.  Instead it looks like it will be mothballed operation sitting idle.  Incredible waste.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Now this would really be stupid....and really undercut property values up there and rentals.


I doubt that Quiros gives a rat's ass about property values.  A shutdown, however, would really undercut any prospect of continued EB-5 fundraising. 

What's really mind boggling to me is that they have not started construction an AnC Bio.  There is a treasure trove of documents and information in this link, even if they are slightly dated:
https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...peak-eb-5-correspondence-12-1-14-to-4-12.html

If I am reading the documents correctly (and perhaps I am not), the AnC Bio project has raised in excess of $70 million.  So why haven't they commenced construction?  Is it possible that they aren't just having problems finding investors, but that existing investors have pulled out?  (Note: On page 66 in the above link Stenger states that as of April, 2015 the AnC Bio porject was 80% subscribed.  Stenger stated to the media at the same time that $77 million had been raised.  IIRC that figure is also in the documents that are in the above link.)

The only thing that is for sure is that this whole operation is an enigma wrapped in an enigma.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

Now that I think of it.....Q has not released any season pass prices for next season.  A lot of other places have...especially to get some money in the door.


----------



## River19 (Mar 8, 2016)

I wonder if they will even open the bike park.......

I can't understand how they won't make money spinning the lifts with the F&B closed.......day passes and season passes for the park sell pretty decently.  Granted electricity isn't cheap......


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Now that I think of it.....Q has not released any season pass prices for next season.  A lot of other places have...especially to get some money in the door.



2016/2017 season passes are scheduled to go on sale this Friday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

River19 said:


> I wonder if they will even open the bike park.......
> 
> I can't understand how they won't make money spinning the lifts with the F&B closed.......day passes and season passes for the park sell pretty decently.  Granted electricity isn't cheap......



Prices are posted for Summer Passes:  http://qburke.com/mountain-biking/tickets-and-passes/season-passes/


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

One other theory fits with all of the pieces - although this is WILD speculation.  If the SEC is saying "enough", then it makes sense that the EB-5 projects have come to a grinding halt.  Again, purely wild speculation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> One other theory fits with all of the pieces - although this is WILD speculation.  If the SEC is saying "enough", then it makes sense that the EB-5 projects have come to a grinding halt.  Again, purely wild speculation.



I think we would have heard something about this from the SEC publicly....


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think we would have heard something about this from the SEC publicly....



It is possible that there is negotiating going on behind the scenes.  Something along the lines of Stenger and Quiros ceasing activity in exchange for no criminal charges being filed.  

But again, there is NO reason to believe that any of this is happening.  I'm just stating wild theories.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It is possible that there is negotiating going on behind the scenes.  Something along the lines of Stenger and Quiros ceasing activity in exchange for no criminal charges being filed.
> 
> But again, there is NO reason to believe that any of this is happening.  I'm just stating wild theories.



And maybe Q is too busy being involved in giant gay swinger orgies while strung out on opiates. Just a wild speculation.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

yeggous said:


> And maybe Q is too busy being involved in giant gay swinger orgies while strung out on opiates. Just a wild speculation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



No need to be crass, especially about Mr. Stenger.  I made it very clear that my thoughts were not based on any known facts.  You aren't making a point that wasn't already made.  

But it is a fact that there is a major problem.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> No need to be crass, especially about Mr. Stenger.  I made it very clear that my thoughts were not based on any known facts.  You aren't making a point that wasn't already made.
> 
> But it is a fact that there is a major problem.



So, just to be devil's advocate, why did you post those thoughts?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2016)

mbedle said:


> So, just to be devil's advocate, why did you post those thoughts?



As I said, there is a major problem at Q Burke.  This is an Internet forum.  We are discussing the hotel project and the resort.  It's a mountain that I care about and I'm very anxious to know what is going on.  I enjoy the puzzle solving aspect of this mystery.   And so far by seeing how the pieces fit, my instinct, and the instinct of others, had been surprisingly good.  Not always, but quite often.  

For example, they began construction on Q Burke before being fully subscribed.  But not on AnC Bio.  Why would that be?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 9, 2016)

Today's snow report makes you wonder if Burke is going to throw in the towel after this weekend:


> A wet weather pattern moves in later today and tomorrow with temperatures staying above freezing to most likely make this a non-snow event.  This should definitely soften up conditions and this weekend could be the best left in the season.  A warm weekend of back-to-back mid-fifty days might have us all kicking up our feet and enjoying what is left of this weird winter season.




.


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 9, 2016)

yup-  I suspect they will & looking at the snow they have on the lower mtn & the forecast, I think they may not have a choice-


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 9, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> yup-  I suspect they will & looking at the snow they have on the lower mtn & the forecast, I think they may not have a choice-


If they do close, it's just another symptom of their very substandard snowmaking.  On the other hand, even if they had the snow I am sure that they would be running in the red.


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 9, 2016)

assuming they close, 12 weekends in operation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 9, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> assuming they close, 12 weekends in operation.



I'm counting 11.  Bad either way.  


.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Mar 9, 2016)

hey everyone, been out of town but here to take my beatings

I just want to way in my defense, I believed Bill Stenger when way back he said the Hotel was funded, and re-iterated that multiple times. Clearly it was not, and pretty clearly I think he flat out lied. Big difference between the $1.6mil I saw as a budget overrun and the $4mil that is the real funding gap. BIG difference.

i still stand by my assertions though that but for the terrible winter the griping would be alot less. but not going to try to be the voice of rosy optimism anymore. As I have said before.... can Kingdom Trails run a ski area


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> hey everyone, been out of town but here to take my beatings
> 
> I just want to way in my defense, I believed Bill Stenger when way back he said the Hotel was funded, and re-iterated that multiple times. Clearly it was not, and pretty clearly I think he flat out lied. Big difference between the $1.6mil I saw as a budget overrun and the $4mil that is the real funding gap. BIG difference.
> 
> i still stand by my assertions though that but for the terrible winter the griping would be alot less. but not going to try to be the voice of rosy optimism anymore. As I have said before.... can Kingdom Trails run a ski area



+ 1 on the weather making folks extra grumpy.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Mar 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I doubt that Quiros gives a rat's ass about property values.  A shutdown, however, would really undercut any prospect of continued EB-5 fundraising.
> 
> What's really mind boggling to me is that they have not started construction an AnC Bio.  There is a treasure trove of documents and information in this link, even if they are slightly dated:
> https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...peak-eb-5-correspondence-12-1-14-to-4-12.html
> ...



if the State is inserting themselves in this billing process then I could understand the hesitancy. Keep in mind that even with their screw ups these guys still have leverage (ex. Orleans county leading VT in job creation), but you raise good points. Or maybe they just developed some sense and realized they need to enter a period of consolidation and that they are totally overwhelmed by the scale of theie own ambitiions.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 9, 2016)

Lots of melting in just one day.  The right side of the chair is about toast.  




.


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of melting in just one day.  The right side of the chair is about toast.
> 
> View attachment 19477
> 
> ...




You gotta love the access road to the hotel ......


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 9, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> You gotta love the access road to the hotel ......


I've driven it. It's not very wide considering it is a long sloping corner. There isn't much room for oncoming traffic to get by each other. I could see that turning into a bumper car luge run on years that are snowy.


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 9, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I've driven it. It's not very wide considering it is a long sloping corner. There isn't much room for oncoming traffic to get by each other. I could see that turning into a bumper car luge run on years that are snowy.



Plus, the lower access off Alpine Lane is now seeing more traffic than "expected", much to the chagrin of home/condo owners in the neighborhood


----------



## mbedle (Mar 9, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> Plus, the lower access off Alpine Lane is now seeing more traffic than "expected", much to the chagrin of home/condo owners in the neighborhood



I wonder what that traffic is coming from. Can skiers park in front of the hotel?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I wonder what that traffic is coming from. Can skiers park in front of the hotel?



My understanding from TOTB and others is that it's construction work and vendors. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## SIKSKIER (Mar 10, 2016)

Only 4 of 50 trails open today.Ouch!


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 10, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Only 4 of 50 trails open today.Ouch!



The email report I got said they hadn't started grooming until this morning and that the upper mtn trails would likely open late.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The email report I got said they hadn't started grooming until this morning and that the upper mtn trails would likely open late.



Makes sense.


----------



## billski (Mar 10, 2016)

I didn't read all 169 pages of this thread, so this may be already in here someplace, but a quick search of "onthesnow" revealed nothing.  Here's an excerpt from a vacationer's review, back a year ago, January 2015.  Alarming, but not surprising that he would say such things to his customers.

"....Instead, we got to speak with the co-owner, Ary Quiros   .    We patiently explained the situation to him and in particular asked why  there were so few trails opened.  In response, he told us the following.    He and his partner had purchased Burke and found their snow-making  equipment was archaic - from the seventies.   They had made a large  investment and their priority was to build a hotel to "try and develop a  customer base".  As a result, they had no planned new investment for  the ski resort.   We were totally shocked by this response.  Firstly,  Mr. Quiros seemed to have no interest in the ski mountain at all.   Secondly, what he said was totally at odds with Burke's website..."


More:
http://www.onthesnow.com/vermont/burke-mountain/reviews.html?review_id=20152


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

billski said:


> I didn't read all 169 pages of this thread, so this may be already in here someplace, but a quick search of "onthesnow" revealed nothing.  Here's an excerpt from a vacationer's review, back a year ago, January 2015.  Alarming, but not surprising that he would say such things to his customers.
> 
> "....Instead, we got to speak with the co-owner, Ary Quiros   .    We patiently explained the situation to him and in particular asked why  there were so few trails opened.  In response, he told us the following.    He and his partner had purchased Burke and found their snow-making  equipment was archaic - from the seventies.   They had made a large  investment and their priority was to build a hotel to "try and develop a  customer base".  As a result, they had no planned new investment for  the ski resort.   We were totally shocked by this response.  Firstly,  Mr. Quiros seemed to have no interest in the ski mountain at all.   Secondly, what he said was totally at odds with Burke's website..."
> 
> ...





That sounds about right for Ary. On another note, the new season pass rates were announced overnight and will remain the same as the current season rates.


----------



## River19 (Mar 11, 2016)

Like I mentioned before, if they can't use EB-5 money for something they can't seem to be able to it......they can use EB-5 money so the hotel was doable in theory; snow making investment not so much, it doesn't pass the hurdle of job creation required for EB 5 qualification from what I understand.

And it is utterly clueless to think building a hotel "will establish a customer base" without a quality skiing product.....having a hotel with no quality activity to draw people to said hotel is like answering a question that wasn't asked...........again, tone deaf would be very kind to this management.


----------



## River19 (Mar 11, 2016)

Like I mentioned before, if they can't use EB-5 money for something they can't seem to be able to it......they can use EB-5 money so the hotel was doable in theory; snow making investment not so much, it doesn't pass the hurdle of job creation required for EB 5 qualification from what I understand.

And it is utterly clueless to think building a hotel "will establish a customer base" without a quality skiing product.....having a hotel with no quality activity to draw people to said hotel is like answering a question that wasn't asked...........again, tone deaf would be very kind to this management.


----------



## River19 (Mar 11, 2016)

sorry double post....thank Firefox.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

I can't see Burke making it past this weekend.  

I saw a groomer on the back of a flatbed truck.  I'm not sure if it was coming or going.   








.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 19528
> 
> 
> .



What is going on in this photo?


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> What is going on in this photo?



pull starting the snowmobile?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> What is going on in this photo?



The J Bar was not running.  

The groomer was being loaded onto the flatbed truck.  




.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

Bye, bye groomer!




.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The J Bar was not running.
> 
> The groomer was being loaded onto the flatbed truck.
> 
> ...



Since we're fans of wild speculation in this thread, I'll speculate it was repossessed by the lender.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

Hmmmm...that looks like a Prinoth Bison.  They demoed one a few years back.  I have seen the BR350's up there (yellow) but not a Bison.  Was the Bison the one that had a blown head gasket last year?

Also weird that this was in the lower lot.  The cat shack is up at MidBurke.


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## River19 (Mar 11, 2016)

I vote repossessed or being sold for working capital.....lol


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

Compare Q's radio silence and sometimes negative FB posts to this report from MRG today admitting that this is probably it:


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

Just checked on the LSC News Site and found that Wednesday night they had an "Update" as to the Hotel.  I can't post a direct link to the episode (March 9th) but it is in the archive here:

http://campus.lyndonstate.edu/news7/archives/archive.html

Jerry Davis has threatened a "short sale" of the Hotel if he does not get paid soon.  His thrust remains against the State but he "admitted" that Q had not met fundraising goals.

They also have an update on March 7th.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

Wow, I'm glad I got my photos out yesterday.


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## oldtimer (Mar 11, 2016)

yup-  bankruptcy of some entity is right around the corner.  I have smelled this stench before.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Wow, I'm glad I got my photos out yesterday.



I take it someone let you into the building?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Bye, bye groomer!
> 
> View attachment 19530
> 
> ...



Were they leasing a unit?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Wow, I'm glad I got my photos out yesterday.



Probably a good call. Too bad they didn't open. I think you would have done well. You have some really nice work!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Were they leasing a unit?



My thoughts as well.  Or perhaps a demo.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I take it someone let you into the building?



The retail shop is fully stocked, and they were having a sale for employees yesterday, so the door from outside was open. There was one person working the counter and no "employee" customers.
Note: I didn't just waltz in and start taking photos off the wall ;-). I had been in contact ahead of time and set up a time to take them down yesterday.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Probably a good call. Too bad they didn't open. I think you would have done well. You have some really nice work!


Thanks. Hopefully something is worked out and I can try again sometime. For now I have 6 framed photos sitting in boxes burning a hole in my pocket :flame:.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

Bankruptcy rumors have had renewed energy in the past 24 hours.

Who knows...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

I see that they listed the J Bar as being open today even though it was not running when I was there.  Once again the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

I poked my head into the store in the Sherburne Lodge.  Clothing is 50% off.  Pretty much everything else is 25% off.  I overheard the sales lady say that the only thing she had sold was to two employees.  Not a single member of the public had purchased anything.

I was going to pick up a few trail maps in case they become collector's items, but I forgot.

There is definitely the feeling of a dying mountain when you are up there.  All of the employees looked to be down in the dumps.  Maybe it's just a seasonal thing.  Who knows.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The retail shop is fully stocked, and they were having a sale for employees yesterday, so the door from outside was open. There was one person working the counter and no "employee" customers.
> Note: I didn't just waltz in and start taking photos off the wall ;-). I had been in contact ahead of time and set up a time to take them down yesterday.



So retail at the Hotel or at the Base Lodge?

And I will be suggesting to my wife that there might be a piece or two of yours I'd like for my BD or Xmas.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2016)

Jerry Davis: 



> Games they've been playing for months now,are just old and tiring, and they have no basis whatsoever.  if they were any other entity, they would have been sued already



Talking about the State or Q & Stenger?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Jerry Davis:
> 
> 
> 
> Talking about the State or Q & Stenger?




When I heard that I was under the impression he was taking aim at the State.  The fact is that the only parties to blame are Q and Stenger because they proceeded without fully funding the work believing that they would raise the funds.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Jerry Davis:
> 
> 
> 
> Talking about the State or Q & Stenger?



He was talking about the state.  He is VERY careful about Stenger/Quiros.  He had "no comment" regarding them.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So retail at the Hotel or at the Base Lodge?


Hotel. The retail shop there was fully stocked in anticipation of the hotel's opening. Since that never happened, the inventory is still there. It was not a "public" opening of the retail shop yesterday. 
I figure since the base lodge shop is also well stocked they have nowhere to move the inventory.
The whole situation is saddening.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hotel. The retail shop there was fully stocked in anticipation of the hotel's opening. Since that never happened, the inventory is still there. It was not a "public" opening of the retail shop yesterday.
> I figure since the base lodge shop is also well stocked they have nowhere to move the inventory.
> The whole situation is saddening.



Wow, just wow.  So sad and angering.  Good for you for CYA there.

And to be clear, NONE of us here EVER wanted to see this outcome.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 11, 2016)

Also, the reviews that had the people complaining about not being refunded have been deleted. There was a post from "Jerry Davis" in one of them that is also gone...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, just wow.  So sad and angering.  Good for you for CYA there.
> 
> And to be clear, NONE of us here EVER wanted to see this outcome.



Technically, if I had left my work there it should have been protected from being claimed in any bankruptcy proceedings. However, access to them may have become more difficult. I figured it was best to just get the photos out until things get figured out up there.


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## oldtimer (Mar 11, 2016)

Which 6 photos and how large are they??






from_the_NEK said:


> Thanks. Hopefully something is worked out and I can try again sometime. For now I have 6 framed photos sitting in boxes burning a hole in my pocket :flame:.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Which 6 photos and how large are they??









If you want to see these in better detail, they are on my site in the winter gallery: http://tim-kirchoff.pixels.com/collections/winter?page=1


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## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Which 6 photos and how large are they??



It's not the size that matters.  It's the quality of the photograph.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's not the size that matters.  It's the quality of the photograph.



That's what she said.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's not the size that matters.  It's the quality of the photograph.



It is not about the megapixels but the DPI that counts


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 11, 2016)

Forget the amateur creepy photoshopped photo, but Burke is still pushing multi-day tickets to college students on their website.  This includes a three day midweek ticket for $75.  I find it hard to believe that there will be any more midweek days at Burke this year.

Here is the promotion:
http://qburke.com/deals/spring-break-discounts/


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

The groomer was a demo


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> The groomer was a demo



Great minds think alike. You might think we were related. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 13, 2016)

As the Bullwheel turns: Today's announcement includes a revised operational schedule for the next two weeks, which includes Thursday - Sunday skiing on the upper mountain only. The revised schedule also notes that both the Mid-Burke cafeteria AND the Bear Den Lounge will operate on those days as well. The Sherburne Express, lower mountain, and the Kingdom Cafeteria will close for the season after today.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> As the Bullwheel turns: Today's announcement includes a revised operational schedule for the next two weeks, which includes Thursday - Sunday skiing on the upper mountain only. The revised schedule also notes that both the Mid-Burke cafeteria AND the Bear Den Lounge will operate on those days as well. The Sherburne Express, lower mountain, and the Kingdom Cafeteria will close for the season after today.


Great that they got rid of the bar tender at the Bear's den for no reason.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 13, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> As the Bullwheel turns: Today's announcement includes a revised operational schedule for the next two weeks, which includes Thursday - Sunday skiing on the upper mountain only. The revised schedule also notes that both the Mid-Burke cafeteria AND the Bear Den Lounge will operate on those days as well. The Sherburne Express, lower mountain, and the Kingdom Cafeteria will close for the season after today.



Too bad they do not sell tickets at MidBurke anymore and don't have any parking there.

And I see that the QTamarack is having an "Irish Themed Open Mic Night" on Thursday.  Hope folks like U2.


----------



## Big Wave Dave (Mar 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Too bad they do not sell tickets at MidBurke anymore and don't have any parking there.
> 
> And I see that the QTamarack is having an "Irish Themed Open Mic Night" on Thursday.  Hope folks like U2.



not sure I follow this. There are a couple of parking lots at mid burke, room for a couple hundred cars I would guess?

When we have gone this year I like to park up above and ski down to the lower lodge to get tickets for the grandkids. Get in a warm up on the house 
have always gotten a space over by the employee parking area and this beats slogging up like 3 staircases from the lower parking lot at the Sherburne with kids and gear.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> not sure I follow this. There are a couple of parking lots at mid burke, room for a couple hundred cars I would guess?
> 
> When we have gone this year I like to park up above and ski down to the lower lodge to get tickets for the grandkids. Get in a warm up on the house
> have always gotten a space over by the employee parking area and this beats slogging up like 3 staircases from the lower parking lot at the Sherburne with kids and gear.


As stated above though only the upper mtn will be open so you won't be able to ski down to the lower mtn for tix. I guess they will be poaching them in the parking lot.
Doubt there will be even 50 cars so should be plenty of parking at midburke


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> not sure I follow this. There are a couple of parking lots at mid burke, room for a couple hundred cars I would guess?
> 
> When we have gone this year I like to park up above and ski down to the lower lodge to get tickets for the grandkids. Get in a warm up on the house
> have always gotten a space over by the employee parking area and this beats slogging up like 3 staircases from the lower parking lot at the Sherburne with kids and gear.



The main lot has been gone for 5 years......


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## River19 (Mar 14, 2016)

Anyone else catch the 22 News report on Friday night with the QHotel and how it isn't going to be open until at least June 1st?

For the folks here it was a "no shit" moment as it wasn't anything new.  But They were onsite and it looks nice etc. and some woman (forgot her name sorry) was speaking on behalf of the Qhotel and the message was "just wait and give us a chance....."


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 14, 2016)

new GM set out to prove he could out douche-bag Q on Saturday morning.  He was meeting and greeting at the bottom of MBE.  His idea of meeting and greeting involved hand checking passes against people's faces.  No pass, NO ENTRY.  Watched him do this to 2 female BMA coaches who each had groups of kids with them.  These are coaches the lift staff know well, they were wearing the full BMA coaching attire.  He made them march up the hill to get passes.  I have skied around the world and never seen this level of small minded behavior and pure stupidity.  I have seen many, many occasions of "do not come back to lift w/o a pass", "hey Durwood, does xxx coach here?",  etc-  but to make coaches separate from kids they are in charge of, and/or force entire group to hike up the hill?  I never cease to be amazed.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> new GM set out to prove he could out douche-bag Q on Saturday morning.  He was meeting and greeting at the bottom of MBE.  His idea of meeting and greeting involved hand checking passes against people's faces.  No pass, NO ENTRY.  Watched him do this to 2 female BMA coaches who each had groups of kids with them.  These are coaches the lift staff know well, they were wearing the full BMA coaching attire.  He made them march up the hill to get passes.  I have skied around the world and never seen this level of small minded behavior and pure stupidity.  I have seen many, many occasions of "do not come back to lift w/o a pass", "hey Durwood, does xxx coach here?",  etc-  but to make coaches separate from kids they are in charge of, and/or force entire group to hike up the hill?  I never cease to be amazed.



Why didn't they have their passes to begin with?


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 14, 2016)

I suspect, that like most of the rest of us, they are human.  Perhaps and in changing into their spring attire they left the pass behind (as I did the week before) or  in rounding up kids it did not rise to the level of importance as, say, making sure the kids are zipped etc.  FWIW, I have stood in that very line and heard the last GM say "ooooops, I left my pass in my other jacket down in the base lodge".  Stuff happens,it is how we react to stuff happening that defines who we are.



Smellytele said:


> Why didn't they have their passes to begin with?


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I suspect, that like most of the rest of us, they are human.  Perhaps and in changing into their spring attire they left the pass behind (as I did the week before) or  in rounding up kids it did not rise to the level of importance as, say, making sure the kids are zipped etc.  FWIW, I have stood in that very line and heard the last GM say "ooooops, I left my pass in my other jacket down in the base lodge".  Stuff happens,it is how we react to stuff happening that defines who we are.



And yes every time I have forgotten my pass I was made to either go get it or get a daily ticket. Glad racers are treated equally


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2016)

If you don't like the new general manager, and history is any indication, just wait a couple of months.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> new GM set out to prove he could out douche-bag Q on Saturday morning.  He was meeting and greeting at the bottom of MBE.  His idea of meeting and greeting involved hand checking passes against people's faces.  No pass, NO ENTRY.  Watched him do this to 2 female BMA coaches who each had groups of kids with them.  These are coaches the lift staff know well, they were wearing the full BMA coaching attire.  He made them march up the hill to get passes.  I have skied around the world and never seen this level of small minded behavior and pure stupidity.  I have seen many, many occasions of "do not come back to lift w/o a pass", "hey Durwood, does xxx coach here?",  etc-  but to make coaches separate from kids they are in charge of, and/or force entire group to hike up the hill?  I never cease to be amazed.



Well, we now know what qualities Q is looking for in a manager.  

And I'm sure that Saturday was a day in which MANY people were trying to poach the lifts without passes at Burke.  :roll:

I also generally agree that it is a good idea to always check to be sure that you do have your pass on you before you head to the lift.  Perhaps this shows that they were not regularly checking passes enough before and these folks got used to it.  I know that there is a "right" way to handle this situation--and that is scanning each pass and saying, "Thank you for visiting today, [First Name]."  They do this at Snowbird and Sugarbush and it is a nice touch. You don't need to stare at a pass for minutes to discern if that is the right person...unless it is obvious that someone is not the passholder.  As to these folks if it was a race program then maybe have them go up and then get their pass for the next run.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 14, 2016)

I'm conflicted about this.  One the one hand, people should make sure to wear their passes.  It's not asking too much.  On the other hand, this isn't Killington on President's Day weekend.  And these people were clearly part of the coaching staff.  A simple, "Be sure to put on your pass before you get on the lift again," would have worked.


----------



## the original trailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

In pre-Q years the standard for lifties (particularly for customers you knew) was to say exactly that: "Please have your pass for the next run"


----------



## crank (Mar 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Anyone else catch the 22 News report on Friday night with the QHotel and how it isn't going to be open until at least June 1st?
> 
> For the folks here it was a "no shit" moment as it wasn't anything new.  But They were onsite and it looks nice etc. and some woman (forgot her name sorry) was speaking on behalf of the Qhotel and the message was "just wait and give us a chance....."




Maybe we will check it out for NEMBAfest... if they have a really good discount offer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

Here's the Channel 22 story:

http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/delayed-hotel-opening-at-q-burke


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## halfpintvt (Mar 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the Channel 22 story:
> 
> http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/delayed-hotel-opening-at-q-burke



If the hotel does not open until after June 1st  then I expect the Mountain will appeal their property value again. Something along the line of "The hotel is not yet open and producing income therefore it should have no value for property tax purposes."
They need to save $$ any way they can!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> If the hotel does not open until after June 1st  then I expect the Mountain will appeal their property value again. Something along the line of "The hotel is not yet open and producing income therefore it should have no value for property tax purposes."
> They need to save $$ any way they can!



That is assuming that DAVIS doesn't short sell it. He's threatening that now. What a mess.  Could you imagine being one of the QHotel investors?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## halfpintvt (Mar 14, 2016)

How could an investor prove that their investment created 10 jobs if the hotel is lost thru a bankruptcy filing? They would lose their collateral but Q Burke General Partners could keep their $50K buy-in fee. Depending on the number of investors that would be a tidy sum.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> How could an investor prove that their investment created 10 jobs if the hotel is lost thru a bankruptcy filing? They would lose their collateral but Q Burke General Partners could keep their $50K buy-in fee. Depending on the number of investors that would be a tidy sum.



Good point.  I imagine that they would count the construction jobs as part of it.


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## smac75 (Mar 15, 2016)

crank said:


> Maybe we will check it out for NEMBAfest... if they have a really good discount offer.



Was thinking the same!


----------



## DoublePlanker (Mar 15, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> How could an investor prove that their investment created 10 jobs if the hotel is lost thru a bankruptcy filing? They would lose their collateral but Q Burke General Partners could keep their $50K buy-in fee. Depending on the number of investors that would be a tidy sum.



Why does the investor care so long as they get their green card?  

This is not a risk free investment.  In fact, its so risky that conventional financing is not available.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Why does the investor care so long as they get their green card?
> 
> This is not a risk free investment.  In fact, its so risky that conventional financing is not available.



We've heard this argument before in the general EB-5 discussions here and in the JPR thread.  But this is not a legitimate argument because this was an investment project, akin to a private placement, that is subject to other regulations not the least of which being our standard for good faith and fair dealing.  The fact that they got a green card does not excuse potential fraud and abuse.  The issue here would be if the project managers knew that they did not have sufficient funds for the project but proceeded any way without any contingency plan thus putting all of the investors at unacceptable risk.  This is a different situation than if they built it and revenue did not meet expectations.  That is the risk that investors normally accept.  This is a real mess.  Hopefully this all ends soon and they get it open.  I don't think any of us saw this turning out this way.


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## burski (Mar 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Good point.  I imagine that they would count the construction jobs as part of it.



This is an interesting point and maybe something the Feds are already considering on this project.  In order for the investors to obtain their green cards I am pretty sure the project must create the required number of jobs for a period of 5 years.  The initial construction jobs are counted but then the jobs created by the ongoing operation of the hotel are part of the equation.  Since the site has been dead for 2-3? months now and looks to be dead for another 3-6? months can the project meet the requirements of creating the requisite number of jobs over the time period required?  The investors may already be screwed and may never get their green cards.  If this is the case, the Quiros / Stenger EB5 program is done, they will never attract another investor...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

burski said:


> This is an interesting point and maybe something the Feds are already considering on this project.  In order for the investors to obtain their green cards I am pretty sure the project must create the required number of jobs for a period of 5 years.  The initial construction jobs are counted but then the jobs created by the ongoing operation of the hotel are part of the equation.  Since the site has been dead for 2-3? months now and looks to be dead for another 3-6? months can the project meet the requirements of creating the requisite number of jobs over the time period required?  The investors may already be screwed and may never get their green cards.  If this is the case, the Quiros / Stenger EB5 program is done, they will never attract another investor...



I wonder why VTDigger has gone silent on this mess.....they following the EB-5 projects and issues up until recently.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Mar 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> We've heard this argument before in the general EB-5 discussions here and in the JPR thread.  But this is not a legitimate argument because this was an investment project, akin to a private placement, that is subject to other regulations not the least of which being our standard for good faith and fair dealing.  The fact that they got a green card does not excuse potential fraud and abuse.  The issue here would be if the project managers knew that they did not have sufficient funds for the project but proceeded any way without any contingency plan thus putting all of the investors at unacceptable risk.  This is a different situation than if they built it and revenue did not meet expectations.  That is the risk that investors normally accept.  This is a real mess.  Hopefully this all ends soon and they get it open.  I don't think any of us saw this turning out this way.



I agree the the law must be followed.  And if fraud and abuse were committed, then some kind of lawsuit would be the remedy.  But any EB-5 is a risky investment and could fail.  It has a higher chance to fail because conventional financing won't touch it.   The investor needs to be wary that risk is higher in these cases.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> I agree the the law must be followed.  And if fraud and abuse were committed, then some kind of lawsuit would be the remedy.  But any EB-5 is a risky investment and could fail.  It has a higher chance to fail because conventional financing won't touch it.   The investor needs to be wary that risk is higher in these cases.



Right, but the fact that the project managers did not have sufficient funds to complete the project and represented to investors that they did, and had no contingency plan, is not one of these "risks" that investors are expected to assume.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Mar 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but the fact that the project managers did not have sufficient funds to complete the project and represented to investors that they did, and had no contingency plan, is not one of these "risks" that investors are expected to assume.



I'm sure the prospectus does not have Qclause for Qcompetence.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> I'm sure the prospectus does not have Qclause for Qcompetence.



You're right though that the Prospectus is key.  I'd imagine that they made no guarantee for return of investment principal, but again, that normally is in cases where they build the damn thing and get it going but cannot turn a return.


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## burski (Mar 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> You're right though that the Prospectus is key.  I'd imagine that they made no guarantee for return of investment principal, but again, that normally is in cases where they build the damn thing and get it going but cannot turn a return.



At this point return on investment is not the question in my mind, that ship has likely sailed.  The issue is if they even get their green cards... many have indicated (unrealistically in my view) that the investors don't care about the money but only want the green cards, while this scenario may give them neither....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

burski said:


> At this point return on investment is not the question in my mind, that ship has likely sailed.  The issue is if they even get their green cards... many have indicated (unrealistically in my view) that the investors don't care about the money but only want the green cards, while this scenario may give them neither....



Exactly.


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## zeke (Mar 15, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> How could an investor prove that their investment created 10 jobs if the hotel is lost thru a bankruptcy filing? They would lose their collateral but Q Burke General Partners could keep their $50K buy-in fee. Depending on the number of investors that would be a tidy sum.



In addition to the exorbitant price they charged their investors / "partners" for the land to put the oversized and underfunded hotel on


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## thetrailboss (Mar 15, 2016)

zeke said:


> In addition to the exorbitant price they charged their investors / "partners" for the land to put the oversized and underfunded hotel on



Do you know what they sold the land to the investors for?


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## zeke (Mar 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Do you know what they sold the land to the investors for?



if i understand this correctly:

https://eb5projects.com/system/proj...original/Q_Burke_Business_Plan.pdf?1395475107

they valued the land at 3.8 million and the investors share of that was 2.4, the q and co share was the actual land, valued at 1.4. how you can say we're kicking in 1.4 million dollars worth of land to the cause, but it's actually worth 3.8 million confuses me, but i'm no lawyer. 

that's just the hotel land, the land for the other projects (aquatic center, tennis and bike park) would all be leased from q and co. (for 10% of revenue) and all projects would be managed by q and co (for 40-50% of revenue).


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2016)

zeke said:


> if i understand this correctly:
> 
> https://eb5projects.com/system/proj...original/Q_Burke_Business_Plan.pdf?1395475107
> 
> ...



Very good find.  I'm going to review that.  Thanks,


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2016)

So I just read on an MTB forum that Qhotel just canceled reservations for NEMBAFest weekend.....June 17-19........saying they won't be open.

So........to recap......missed all ski season........canceled all weddings.......won't be open for the largest summer event in the area.......in Mid June.......so yeah, I don't think they are opening under this ownership......I just don't see it.

So there is that......

Anyone know how our condo salesman is doing?  I really do worry about him on some level.......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 17, 2016)

It look like their reservation system is not accepting anything at all for this summer.  If so, this is a very bad sign.  Very bad.


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## River19 (Mar 17, 2016)

Open your door.......I heard the lady warming up to sing.........she looks big from here......


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 17, 2016)

The possibility of that "short sale" is starting to look more and more likely.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 17, 2016)

Honestly, absolutely nothing that happens at Burke from here on out will surprise me.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 17, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Honestly, absolutely nothing that happens at Burke from here on out will surprise me.




Agreed !


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## halfpintvt (Mar 17, 2016)

I heard from someone who is still doing finish work at the hotel that the Mountain will close at the end of March and the hotel will not open until November 2016. Have also heard that Peak CM has not paid subcontractors and Peak has sent out a letter to these subs suggesting that they file liens against Burke 2000 LLC (dba Q Burke). Liens totaling over $650,000 have been recorded in the Burke Town Office. I'm sure there will be more coming. Maybe Jerry Davis is trying to force the State to release all of the money he is owed by generating more bad publicity for the Q's and EB-5. Didn't "Little A" (Ary) once say that the reason they put the "Q" in front of Burke was because Burke Mountain had a lot of bad press when a google search was done but "Q-Burke" had no such problem. Go figure!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> I heard from someone who is still doing finish work at the hotel that the Mountain will close at the end of March and the hotel will not open until November 2016. Have also heard that Peak CM has not paid subcontractors and Peak has sent out a letter to these subs suggesting that they file liens against Burke 2000 LLC (dba Q Burke). Liens totaling over $650,000 have been recorded in the Burke Town Office. I'm sure there will be more coming. Maybe Jerry Davis is trying to force the State to release all of the money he is owed by generating more bad publicity for the Q's and EB-5. Didn't "Little A" (Ary) once say that the reason they put the "Q" in front of Burke was because Burke Mountain had a lot of bad press when a google search was done but "Q-Burke" had no such problem. Go figure!



Again, the State claims the escrow account is empty.  Q et al didn't raise enough money. 

I am still shocked that they have not either provided a bridge loan from themselves or simply shifted a few of the other investors from other projects over in order to fill the short fall. Something seems really wrong here.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

Why would they give up on the summer?  And why should we believe that the problem will be rectified by November?  

What a mess.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 18, 2016)

Ary and Daddy should be most proud of their accomplishments over the past 3 years, and, the support and goodwill they have generated in the community and beyond.


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## River19 (Mar 18, 2016)

While the Qhotel may not open until November, which in itself is the most epic of fails......that would be one year behind schedule.....I assume they will still open the bike park and operate the lift?  Anyone hear anything about summer mountain ops?  That could be telling depending on the situation.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> While the Qhotel may not open until November, which in itself is the most epic of fails......that would be one year behind schedule.....I assume they will still open the bike park and operate the lift?  Anyone hear anything about summer mountain ops?  That could be telling depending on the situation.



Half of the Bike Park is going to be closed this summer while they install the lights for night skiing. 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I'm kidding. And I hope that isn't actually a plan. But like MEtoVTSkier said  





> Honestly, absolutely nothing that happens at Burke from here on out will surprise me.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

Well, for kicks I just called Q Burke and inquired about a hotel reservation for mid-August.  I was flat out told that the hotel would not be open then.  I asked when the first date I could book a reservation would be.  The agent's response was, "Maybe November."


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## oldtimer (Mar 18, 2016)

my only questions is when do the lawyers start?   I see no scenario that does not involve some combination of bankruptcy, civil suits, & perhaps the state investigating some folks for criminal fraud?   This is outside of any reasonable limits.  If you cannot make the nut, throw up the "for Sale" sign and take your lumps.  These clowns seem to want it both ways.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

If they don't open until November, it's as if they are taunting Peak CM to bring a foreclosure proceeding.  

On the one hand, it seems as if they have truly thrown in the towel.  But on the other hand, they are still running the ski area at a time of year when they are surely taking a loss.  

There is a passholder meeting this weekend.  I doubt it will be well attended, but it may be interesting.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, for kicks I just called Q Burke and inquired about a hotel reservation for mid-August.  I was flat out told that the hotel would not be open then.  I asked when the first date I could book a reservation would be.  The agent's response was, "Maybe November."



Well, on the bright side, at least they aren't taking reservations only to turn around and cancel them within a month like they were doing all winter.


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## fbrissette (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, for kicks I just called Q Burke and inquired about a hotel reservation for mid-August.



You've got to much time on your hands.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You've got to much time on your hands.



Huh?  It took me less than a minute.  I thought that the 50 or seconds I spend doing it was WELL worth the information that I got in return.  To each their own, I guess.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2016)

This is just mind boggling on so many levels. 


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well, on the bright side, at least they aren't taking reservations only to turn around and cancel them within a month like they were doing all winter.



Good point.  They don't need to generate any ill will if it can be avoided.  On the other hand, this represents a major shift.  They are even pretending anymore that the hotel is going to open in the near future.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2016)

I would think that this sluggishness to get it going would hurt their efforts to get more investors.


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## fbrissette (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Huh?  It took me less than a minute.  I thought that the 50 or seconds I spend doing it was WELL worth the information that I got in return.  To each their own, I guess.



Fair enough.  How about:  'you are way too passionate about this'


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Fair enough.  How about:  'you are way too passionate about this'



I'll give you that one.


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## Smellytele (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, for kicks I just called Q Burke and inquired about a hotel reservation for mid-August.  I was flat out told that the hotel would not be open then.  I asked when the first date I could book a reservation would be.  The agent's response was, "Maybe November."



Figured they would know your voice and your number by now and would have hung up on you or not answered at all.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Figured they would know your voice and your number by now and would have hung up on you or not answered at all.



Believe it or not, it was the first time that I can recall telephoning.


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## River19 (Mar 18, 2016)

For some reason I remember reading initially that the Qhotel was "fully funded" and they were raising money for the other EB 5 funded projects like the Tennis center, the aquatic center, the hole in the ground in Newport, the sketchy biotech firm, the airplane manufacturing facility, the NEK time travel station, the Earth to Mars launch platform etc.........OK the last two I may have made up.....

Were we wrong in interpreting their BS as being fully funded?

Reason I ask is that there is one financial investment structure that is "fully funded" and can meet their obligations to pay out just as long as funds keep coming in but goes belly up as soon as outgo outweighs incoming.....just sayin'.....


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## tumbler (Mar 18, 2016)

i cannot believe the contractor actually finished the job.  Does anyone know the total price of the work?  If it is only over 650,00ish that seems like it could possibly be the retainage (10%) or less.  There is something very fishy here (duh).  Usually retainage is invoiced and set aside to be paid at the end.  It takes two to tango but somone has to lead-  Q, but the contractor has to know also.


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 18, 2016)

tumbler said:


> i cannot believe the contractor actually finished the job.  Does anyone know the total price of the work?  If it is only over 650,00ish that seems like it could possibly be the retainage (10%) or less.  There is something very fishy here (duh).  Usually retainage is invoiced and set aside to be paid at the end.  It takes two to tango but somone has to lead-  Q, but the contractor has to know also.



The contractor has the CO which is maximum leverage.  The subs can do the liens.


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## oldtimer (Mar 18, 2016)

Have I spelled "Ponzi" properly?




River19 said:


> For some reason I remember reading initially that the Qhotel was "fully funded" and they were raising money for the other EB 5 funded projects like the Tennis center, the aquatic center, the hole in the ground in Newport, the sketchy biotech firm, the airplane manufacturing facility, the NEK time travel station, the Earth to Mars launch platform etc.........OK the last two I may have made up.....
> 
> Were we wrong in interpreting their BS as being fully funded?
> 
> Reason I ask is that there is one financial investment structure that is "fully funded" and can meet their obligations to pay out just as long as funds keep coming in but goes belly up as soon as outgo outweighs incoming.....just sayin'.....


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

I don't recall every seeing any credible information to suggest that the hotel was fully funded.  I know for a fact that when they broke ground it was not nearly fully funded.


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## tumbler (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't recall every seeing any credible information to suggest that the hotel was fully funded.  I know for a fact that when they broke ground it was not nearly fully funded.



That's why I cannot believe it got finished, not mention started!  Quite a risk the contractor took.  Yes he has the CO which is leverage but he is stuck with no money.  I have to believe the subs are furious with him.  He should open the hotel to try and make some money...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

If the media reports are to be believed, the contractor is only owed $5.5 million on a hotel that was projected to cost $55 million.  So it's really not that much in the grand scheme of things.  But that's why it is so mind boggling that they don't figure out a way to pay off the contractor.  

Couldn't the LLC take out a loan and give the lender priority and a security interest?  As risky as a ski area loan is, I wouldn't mind being first in line with a secured loan of $5.5 million on a hotel that is worth many millions more.  Unless the bank thinks that there really wouldn't be any serious buyers if the hotel went up for foreclosure.  In that case, that ought to tell you something about the confidence in the resort.


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## River19 (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> If the media reports are to be believed, the contractor is only owed $5.5 million on a hotel that was projected to cost $55 million.  So it's really not that much in the grand scheme of things.  But that's why it is so mind boggling that they don't figure out a way to pay off the contractor.
> 
> Couldn't the LLC take out a loan and give the lender priority and a security interest?  As risky as a ski area loan is, I wouldn't mind being first in line with a secured loan of $5.5 million on a hotel that is worth many millions more.  Unless the bank thinks that there really wouldn't be any serious buyers if the hotel went up for foreclosure.  In that case, that ought to tell you something about the confidence in the resort.



Or if they know that an official commercial valuation of a non-operating building and real estate will be well south of $55M.


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## mbedle (Mar 18, 2016)

As far as the fully funded, The EB-5 offering included a lot more than the hotel/conference center. I think the offering was around 100 million. I know back in June the state allowed Burke to start getting additional subscribers. Just not sure if they were below the 55 million estimate for the hotel or looking to still fully fund the entire build out. You would have thought that Peak CM would have put in the contract, language to cover them in the event that funding isn't secured. 

As far as the lack of funds, it makes not sense to me why Peak CM would continue to work at this point in time. Didn't someone post that they were still working inside the hotel? Is it possible that the hotel was funded at 55 million and they went over budget? That might explain the position that they are in right now.


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## freeski (Mar 18, 2016)

For the hotel I'd add an extra "Q": Q-Qhotel. This is a very interesting thread.


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## flakeydog (Mar 18, 2016)

Looks like a continuation of the "traditional" ski area growth model to me....

Step1: Dream big, really big, no.... really, really big  
Step 2: over-invest
Step 3: promise the world, and then some....
Step 4: limp along pretending things are going great (while the world collapses around you)
Step 5: declare bankruptcy and sell for pennies on the dollar
Step 6: buyout occurs- repeat 1-5 (unless common sense prevails, then run it like a business and never look back) 

Thank god the ski industry is fueled by passion, it is a lousy investment in most cases. But people love to ski and there is often someone ready to throw their hat in the ring to keep things going.  Let's hope someone is there for Burke, it is a nice mountain.


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## Zermatt (Mar 18, 2016)

flakeydog said:


> Looks like a continuation of the "traditional" ski area growth model to me....
> 
> Step1: Dream big, really big, no.... really, really big
> Step 2: over-invest
> ...



Anybody ever figure out how over 200 ski areas in Switzerland survive in an area the size of Vermont and New Hampshire?  I know it's not real estate either.


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## benski (Mar 18, 2016)

billo said:


> Anybody ever figure out how over 200 ski areas in Switzerland survive in an area the size of Vermont and New Hampshire?  I know it's not real estate either.


There are more people living near the resorts.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> As far as the fully funded, The EB-5 offering included a lot more than the hotel/conference center. I think the offering was around 100 million.


I can assure you that at the time ground was broken for the hotel they had not raised nearly enough funds raised for the completion of just the hotel.


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 18, 2016)

Skiing is embedded in the culture in Europe.  It is not in the US.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

billo said:


> Anybody ever figure out how over 200 ski areas in Switzerland survive in an area the size of Vermont and New Hampshire?  I know it's not real estate either.



There are lots of factors.  A couple of the big ones are: a) Dense population; b) higher percentage of skiers; c) municipal partnerships; d) decreased size of many of the areas; c) more favorable liability laws.

There are LOTS of ski hills in Europe that would have been NELSAP a long time ago based on size alone.  I especially noticed this in Austria.  If a town could find a place for a t-bar, and only a t-bar, they'd throw put one up.


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## mbedle (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I can assure you that at the time ground was broken for the hotel they had not raised nearly enough funds raised for the completion of just the hotel.



I wasn't saying that at the time they broke ground they didn't have the place fully funded. I was more thinking that maybe they did have it fully funded by June 2015, when the state stepped in and made them revised their offering memorandum. Everything I read indicates that in June 2015, they had already raised 70 million and were looking to get the additional 30 million. I am guessing that the state is holding money that was planed for the other projects and not releasing it to Peak CM for the hotel buildout. Basically holding them to the original budget and not robbing from the aquatic/tennis facility budgets.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Everything I read indicates that in June 2015, they had already raised 70 million and were looking to get the additional 30 million.


I'm not sure where you read that.  It may certainly be true.  I just don't know.  If it is true, it makes it even more mysterious as to why the hotel has not opened.  Don't forget that the state has alleged that it is only holding about $1.5 million of the $5.5 million that remains owing on the hotel.  It bears constant repeating that the state is NOT the sole reason for the hotel remaining closed.  

Remember the good old days back in 2010:


----------



## mbedle (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There are lots of factors.  A couple of the big ones are: a) Dense population; b) higher percentage of skiers; c) municipal partnerships; d) decreased size of many of the areas; c) more favorable liability laws.
> 
> There are LOTS of ski hills in Europe that would have been NELSAP a long time ago based on size alone.  I especially noticed this in Austria.  If a town could find a place for a t-bar, and only a t-bar, they'd throw put one up.




As VT said, municipal partnerships plays a big part in lift installs and operations. The density of people is 4 times as much as Vermont and New Hampshire. Also, snowmaking, which is minimal to non-excitant in Switzerland.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure where you read that.  It may certainly be true.  I just don't know.  If it is true, it makes it even more mysterious as to why the hotel has not opened.  Don't forget that the state has alleged that it is only holding about $1.5 million of the $5.5 million that remains owing on the hotel.  It bears constant repeating that the state is NOT the sole reason for the hotel remaining closed.
> 
> Remember the good old days back in 2010:
> 
> View attachment 19649



Maybe I am miss-reading this. But Stenger states that they have raised 70 million and need 30 million more. 

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../16/burke-hotel-gets-go-ahead-state/30266227/

With state oversight, they may not allow money that is allocated for the other projects to fund the over budget hotel project. In other words, they may be holding Qburke to their offering estimate and making them pay the deficit, in an effort to protect all of the investors.


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 18, 2016)

on a happier note-  they seem to be driven to stay open until pond skimming on the 27th.  Their email says they will light up the guns on Warren's tonight.  AND they are heralding the barbecue to open the Mtn bike season on May 27th.  So for now they are saying "operations as normal"-  I am happy about that.


----------



## tumbler (Mar 18, 2016)

So 5.5M is their 10% retainage. If they went over budget due to change orders the overage has been known for a while. I doubt Peak did any additional work without being cost being approved first. 55M is a rather large project to be neglecting as an owner.  Still can't believe they would start without 100% funding, for that amount I would want to know. Q probably cannot get a loan because they are over leveraged,  75% loan to value is the cut off for banks. 

Could see Peak taking shares in ownership in trade and be first in line to be paid at nice return upon sale.  Still got to pay the subs though


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

tumbler said:


> So 5.5M is their 10% retainage. If they went over budget due to change orders the overage has been known for a while. I doubt Peak did any additional work without being cost being approved first. 55M is a rather large project to be neglecting as an owner.  Still can't believe they would start without 100% funding, for that amount I would want to know. Q probably cannot get a loan because they are over leveraged,  75% loan to value is the cut off for banks.
> 
> Could see Peak taking shares in ownership in trade and be first in line to be paid at nice return upon sale.  Still got to pay the subs though


The contractor reported that the project came in under budget.  Of course at a 12% interest rate accruing to the contractor, it may not stay under budget for long.

What makes you think that the hotel has debt other than what is owed to the contractor?  The investors ponied up the money.  They don't have a secured interest, IIRC.  They are associated with the LLC (owners??), but it's not as if they made a straight loan.  The Jay Peak Tram Haus investors were converted to an unsecured loan, but so far I have not heard of that happening at Q Burke.

You may very well know more about this than I do.  I am far from an expert on these matters.


----------



## tumbler (Mar 18, 2016)

I admit I know next to nothing about EB5 process. For 55M I just would think someone's has the building as collateral on a loan, the investors, the state? No one gets 55M for nothing. 

Surprised Peak hasn't sued yet


----------



## tumbler (Mar 18, 2016)

Also not up to date on this thread just scan it sometimes. Just looking at it as dispute between contractor and owner.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2016)

tumbler said:


> No one gets 55M for nothing.


Welcome to EB-5!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> on a happier note-  they seem to be driven to stay open until pond skimming on the 27th.  Their email says they will light up the guns on Warren's tonight.  AND they are heralding the barbecue to open the Mtn bike season on May 27th.  So for now they are saying "operations as normal"-  I am happy about that.



LSC News/Channel 7 are reporting this:



> According to Qburke marketing director, Jessica Sechler, ski visits were down 40% this year at QBurke.



To put that in perspective, a normal 70k season is coming in at about 42k skier days.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure where you read that.  It may certainly be true.  I just don't know.  If it is true, it makes it even more mysterious as to why the hotel has not opened.  Don't forget that the state has alleged that it is only holding about $1.5 million of the $5.5 million that remains owing on the hotel.  It bears constant repeating that the state is NOT the sole reason for the hotel remaining closed.
> 
> Remember the good old days back in 2010:
> 
> View attachment 19649



Makes you wonder if the State is going with Q/S now on any of their "magical mystery tours" to raise money.  My money says no.


----------



## steamboat1 (Mar 18, 2016)

If the Q's just coughed up the $50,000 they received from each EB-5 investor there wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 18, 2016)

flakeydog said:


> Step1: Dream big, really big, no.... really, really big
> Step 2: over-invest
> Step 3: promise the world, and then some....
> Step 4: limp along pretending things are going great (while the world collapses around you)
> ...




Very good post!   

But please allow me to slightly alter it for a tighter correlation to Q-Burke with a few bolded additions.


Step 1: Dream big, really big, no.... really, really big  
Step 2: *Rope in a few politicians, either corrupt or gullible, and PRETEND you'll create jobs, thus tricking rural populace.*
Step 3: over-invest *FREE MONEY with ZERO cost of capital in a rigged game*
Step 4: promise the world, and then some....
Step 5: limp along pretending things are going great (while the world collapses around you)
Step 6: buyout occurs- *SELL for a massive profit based on capital improvements that cost you literally nothing*


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> LSC News/Channel 7 are reporting this:
> 
> 
> 
> To put that in perspective, a normal 70k season is coming in at about 42k skier days.



I wonder how 40% compared to other Vermont resorts.  It would be interesting to see if their snowmaking woes added to this percentage.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

The enigma that is Q Burke deepens.

We've heard reports that they have cancelled all weddings for this year and their representative said that the hotel will not be open until November at the earliest.  And yet in today's Caledonian Record, Stenger is quoted saying that he will have the complete funds raised by the end of April and that he can have the hotel open 30 days after that.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 19, 2016)

That passholder meeting tonight?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That passholder meeting tonight?



Yes, although they neglected into mention it in today's email. They normally do.


----------



## River19 (Mar 19, 2016)

Well let's see here.......I'm thinking Stenger might be out of the loop or something......THEY CANCELED RESERVATIONS FOR JUNE AND ARE TELLING PEOPLE THEY "MAY" BE OPEN IN NOVEMBER!!!!   

So the whole "I'll have funds in April and we can open 30 days later thing" seems like a day late and $5.5M dollars short.......they punted bookings for rooms, punted all the people that wanted to get married there this year......you can't punt weddings and then have them re-book....and you can't just conjure up more engaged couples in the area you haven't pissed off by running a "Buy one wedding get your second wedding 50% off" special......

People actually wanted to stay there for NEMBAfest but they punted all those bookings as well.

Such a fustercluk......


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The enigma that is Q Burke deepens.
> 
> We've heard reports that they have cancelled all weddings for this year and their representative said that the hotel will not be open until November at the earliest.  And yet in today's Caledonian Record, Stenger is quoted saying that he will have the complete funds raised by the end of April and that he can have the hotel open 30 days after that.



Riiiiiigggghhhhtttt

Show me the money.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

Interesting passholder meeting.  I'll post a recap later.


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## River19 (Mar 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting passholder meeting.  I'll post a recap later.



You're killing me.......


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 19, 2016)

well, it seemed to be more of the same.  There is Ary's world (with new sidekick Mike) and there is the universe we all live in.  

Hotel:  He insists that the Q family and the Q operating company have no ability to get the hotel open.  It is all the State's fault and they have to sit and hope that "the state allows it to be open" sometime soon.  He "hopes for November, but it could be another year.  When asked why what Davis says, and what Stenger says, are very different from what he says he shrugged and told us all that they didn't check with him before issuing statements.  He says he is not a stakeholderr, but the stake holders are lying to us.  One guy called him on the notion that perhaps hope was not a god strategy and he shrugged.

Employees:  He has yet to be able to build a good "team".  The old ways and the old employees are responsible for the losses that have gone on forever.  Was asked why the food and service at the Tami now sucked and he did acknowledge that he does not have a good staff.  The good staff "had moved on" to other local places and he is "happy" that they are making other places successful.  You really had to be at this meeting to understand just how surreal that exchange was-  he says "I was here for the time when the tami was hopping and the food was great. But those people are gone and I have not replaced them with good people."  THEY ARE NOT "GONE" you dingbat-  you drove them out.

One person called him out for always referring to things as what "I" have done.  He said that once he has a good team that is loyal to him, then he can say "we".

No snowmaking investment this summer-  No hotel = no profits= no investment.  ALSO-  staff this summer will be bare, bare bones.  They have to be "lean and mean".  Read, they have no $.   

Summer-  may run mtn biking from mid-burke.  Bear den is smaller and cheaper to run than Tami- so may do that.

Here swears that there will be no bankruptcy and they will run  better and stronger than ever next ski season-  even though there is a reasonable chance the hotel will not open.  Good news is that he sure hopes it will open.


Nothing, I mean nothing, to see here folks.   New GM this month.  Same old pile of poo from top level management.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> well, it seemed to be more of the same.  There is Ary's world (with new sidekick Mike) and there is the universe we all live in.
> 
> Hotel:  He insists that the Q family and the Q operating company have no ability to get the hotel open.  It is all the State's fault and they have to sit and hope that "the state allows it to be open" sometime soon.  He "hopes for November, but it could be another year.  When asked why what Davis says, and what Stenger says, are very different from what he says he shrugged and told us all that they didn't check with him before issuing statements.  He says he is not a stakeholderr, but the stake holders are lying to us.  One guy called him on the notion that perhaps hope was not a god strategy and he shrugged.
> 
> ...





For a military man he sure likes to pass the blame onto others instead of being accountable. And I love the "it's the state's fault" BS.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

Oldtimer summed it up well.  Here are some notes I took, with my editorial thoughts in parenthesis.

Jessica, the Marketing Director, opened the meeting by excitedly saying, "Cheers to a great season!"  You could hear crickets chirping as people scratched their heads.

Assuming they open next weekend, Burke will have been opened for 81 days this winter.  That compares to 113 days each of the last two years.

They had 57 snowmaking days and used 57 million gallons of water, which is more than they used last year.

The new general manager is Mike Parpalardo.  (I have no idea if I spelled his last name correctly.)  He insisted that he had ski area experience.  If you read between the lines his experience is being a skier - and that's it.  He is an electrician by trade.  He has known the Q family for 17 years and spoke very highly of them.  He went so far as to say, "Q is quality and you guys are lucky to have him."

Burke has 100 acres of snowmaking coverage out of 178 acres total.  That's 56%.  Ary called it 60%.  Their website calls it 70%.

There will be NO SNOWMAKING IMPROVEMENTS OVER THE SUMMER.  The improvements depended on hotel revenue.  

Ary insisted that there will be no bankruptcy filing.  (I have no reason to doubt him, but what did people expect him to say?)

The plan is to run mountain bike operations out of the Mid Burke Lodge and to have the Bear Den open, even if that means that there will just be portable toilets at the Sherburne base.  (The common theme was that staff is going to be VERY lean this summer, and perhaps next winter.)

Annual losses this year "easily doubled."

It was suggested to Ary that he bridge relations with the local community.  I wrote down a couple sentences he said in response to that comment: "I don't hate no community."  "If I have a failed company I can't support nobody."  "I can't do anything with no money."  (I kid you not... those three sentences came from one answer.  Ary seemed to think that the only way he can better his relationship with the community is to somehow have money.  He didn't understand at all what people were saying.)

Ary insisted that Davis from Peak CM and Stenger are incorrect that more money needs to be raised to pay the contractor in full.  Ary insisted that the sole reason that the hotel is not open is because the state is holding money.  He said that Stenger obviously hadn't spoken with him, even though a couple of questions later he said that he has no managerial role over the hotel whatsoever other than providing Q Burke staff to operate the hotel.  (This is where I think that Ary really blew it.  He not so subtly called Davis and Stegner liars.  People have a lot more trust in Stenger than they do in Ary, and it went over like a lead balloon.)

They have a developed a plan to operate next year without the hotel being open.  (This was a major red flag.)

If the state does not release funds for the hotel, there is no plan B.  The hotel will just sit empty.  Ary says that EB-5 regulations prevent them from obtaining financing, such as a bridge loan, from any other source other than the investors themselves.  Someone asked Ary about why the state says that Quiros and Stenger have invested their own money as well.  Ary said that this is absolutely not true.  There is no private money.  Just EB-5 money.  (I can confirm that the state has released documentation saying that the owners have invested money ALONG WITH the EB-5 investors.  So either the state is wrong or Ary is wrong.)

When the hotel opens, 50% of profit will go to EB-5 investors.  The remaining 50% will go to the ski company.

MY THOUGHTS: 
I don't have much faith in the new general manager.  He seemed like a nice guy, but he clearly does not have the necessary experience.  When he was given basic constructive criticism, all he could say was, "I'm new here," and "I've only been here for four weeks."  He took a lot of comments as an attack on him personally, when they were anything but.  I think that he means well, but I also think that he is in over his head.  

Q Burke is clearly going to be slashing their operating expenses - which will impact staffing.  

Ary is not being up front about the hotel.  I'm not sure what is going on, but he insisted that it is all the state's fault and that he will do nothing because only the state can get the hotel open.  

There can be little doubt that Ary has no intention of really trying to mend his relationship with the community.  His answers about this were both odd and confused, which I think left people frustrated.    

My overall feeling: What scares me the most is that Ary seemed to be hinting that the hotel may not even be open next winter.  I've said for a while now that something major might be going wrong.  I didn't leave the meeting feeling less confident about this hunch.  I got the feeling that they are slashing expenses and circling the wagons in the hope that what ever is wrong can be straightened out, but that they are conceding that it may not get worked out.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

I forgot to mention that there was a Masskier sighting at the meeting!  I guess he was able to pull himself away from all of the potential customers at the Bear Path open house to attend the meeting.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2016)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## xwhaler (Mar 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I forgot to mention that there was a Masskier sighting at the meeting!  I guess he was able to pull himself away from all of the potential customers at the Bear Path open house to attend the meeting.



Did you introduce yourself or just hide behind awkward internet anonymity while continuing your reign of Burke bashing?!   Honest question.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Did you introduce yourself or just hide behind awkward internet anonymity while continuing your reign of Burke bashing?!   Honest question.



Burke bashing? You think everything is OK there?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Did you introduce yourself or just hide behind awkward internet anonymity while continuing your reign of Burke bashing?!   Honest question.


I took time to provide a report to give information for those who were interested.  No need to make a gratuitous personal swipe.


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## xwhaler (Mar 19, 2016)

I liked the content.  Was well written.   When u stay on point and don't get too negative u are a valuable member of AZ in my book


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## River19 (Mar 19, 2016)

Saddest most delusional meeting report yet.......November.......even that seems possibly unlikely.......and of course the skiing product won't be improved as Q stands for quality not $ and obviously they don't possess any management skills.

Biking from mid burke.........OK whatever......just keep the lifts spinning Jr you useless @#$&!!!!!!!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> I liked the content.  Was well written.   When u stay on point and don't get too negative u are a valuable member of AZ in my book



Well, if you liked the content that comment wasn't called for.  Let's move on.


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## xwhaler (Mar 19, 2016)

Honest question.  U going Burke pass next yr or elsewhere? BW, Loon?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2016)

River19 said:


> Saddest most delusional meeting report yet.......November.......even that seems possibly unlikely.......and of course the skiing product won't be improved as Q stands for quality not $ and obviously they don't possess any management skills.
> 
> Biking from mid burke.........OK whatever......just keep the lifts spinning Jr you useless @#$&!!!!!!!



Good idea in some ways...the BDL is classic. I'd rather see the lodge used. Nice views. Campground is also nearby.

But there's limited parking, they aren't taking care of the building, and it seems weird to move the ops there considering that you have condos down there and it's the bottom of the lift. Also weird to have an empty Hotel sitting there. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Honest question.  U going Burke pass next yr or elsewhere? BW, Loon?



I bought gift cards last November during a promotion.  I'm stuck.  At the time I thought that snowmaking improvements would happen. That's what matters the most to me by far.


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## Cannonball (Mar 19, 2016)

Rough winter for sure. The silver lining is a promising Mountain Bike season ahead.  Kingdom Trails is looking for feedback on how to optimize the coming season.  Feedback helps...  https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1L7a3-lRHz3zoX_If9ociADA9u0Cix1wn-aXd6vgrLXw/viewform


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## Cannonball (Mar 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke bashing? You think everything is OK there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Are they mutually exclusive?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> Are they mutually exclusive?



Again, Cannonball, I took quite a bit of time to write an informative post.  People on this forum should be supportive of others who take the time to do things like that.  It's simple courtesy.  I'm not asking for praise.  I'm just asking you to refrain from taking the opportunity to be negative.  Sending PMs telling people to "fuck off" is MUCH worse than my write up of the meeting.  Much worse, indeed.  Before you throw a stone, perhaps you should notice the glass house.  This is especially true when it's concerning a mountain that you haven't even skied at this year.


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## Cannonball (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Again, Cannonball, I took quite a bit of time to write an informative post.  People on this forum should be supportive of others who take the time to do things like that.  It's simple courtesy.  I'm not asking for praise.  I'm just asking you to refrain from taking the opportunity to be negative.  Sending PMs telling people to "fuck off" is MUCH worse than my write up of the meeting.  Much worse, indeed.  Before you throw a stone, perhaps you should notice the glass house.  This is especially true when it's concerning a mountain that you haven't even skied at this year.



??  I was asking trailboss a question.  I haven't read your post.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> ??  I was asking trailboss a question.  I haven't read your post.



It definitely came across as if you had.  My apologies.


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## Puck it (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It definitely came across as if you had.  My apologies.


Little jumpy are we?


----------



## machski (Mar 20, 2016)

Ary just doesn't get it.  Ski resorts for the most part in the East are so interwoven into their communities they often act as one.  You cannot burn that connection and expect to be successful.  Very sad state of affairs there.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Puck it said:


> Little jumpy are we?



When someone repeatedly PMs you telling you to "fuck off" among other things you tend to get a little jumpy.  Cannonball definitely has some trust to earn back.


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## Puck it (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> When someone repeatedly PMs you telling you to "fuck off" among other things you tend to get a little jumpy.  Cannonball definitely has some trust to earn back.


Lighten up, Francis!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Puck it said:


> Lighten up, Francis!



I think the person repeatedly telling me to fuck off should be the one who lightens up.  But apparently on this forum it doesn't work that way.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the person repeatedly telling me to fuck off should be the one who lightens up.  But apparently on this forum it doesn't work that way.



Are you sure you know what "repeatedly" means? Twice doesn't really fit the definition.

_re·peat·ed·ly
rəˈpēdədlē/
adverb
over and over again; constantly.
"they have been warned repeatedly with no effect"
synonyms:	frequently, often, again and again, over and over (again), time and (time) again, time after time, many times, many a time; persistently, recurrently, constantly, continually, regularly,_


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> Are you sure you know what "repeatedly" means? Twice doesn't really fit the definition.
> 
> _re·peat·ed·ly
> rəˈpēdədlē/
> ...



Did you miss the "among other things" part?  

Let's talk about Burke, already!


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## Cannonball (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I feel so much better now.  Thanks.



You bet. Have a nice day.


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## Puck it (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Did you miss the "among other things" part?
> 
> Let's talk about Burke, already!


Is it amongst or among.  I never get that right.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Puck it said:


> Is it amongst or among.  I never get that right.



You can't be wrong.  There's no difference.

EDIT: Fixed the typo.  Darn iPad autocorrect!!!


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 20, 2016)

Rehash of Burke Hotel situation in the Sunday Burlington Free Press.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...les-open-under-funding-restrictions/80402864/


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Rehash of Burke Hotel situation in the Sunday Burlington Free Press.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...les-open-under-funding-restrictions/80402864/



The article definitely contradicts what Ary told passholders last night.  

I'm not sure why Davis thinks that it is smart to call Vermont's regional center incompetent.  That won't encourage future investors.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Rehash of Burke Hotel situation in the Sunday Burlington Free Press.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...les-open-under-funding-restrictions/80402864/



Confirms a lot of my thoughts--the fact is that they still have NOT raised the money.  A big reason for that is that investors now have a lot of other options....including "EB-5 Projects" in Manhattan that theoretically have less risk while paying more to investors.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The article definitely contradicts what Ary told passholders last night.
> 
> I'm not sure why Davis thinks that it is smart to call Vermont's regional center incompetent.  That won't encourage future investors.



It's a complete straw man.  He can't blame Stenger et al....or he can't bite the hand that feeds him.  

What was funny was that Moulton (for the record I have little or no faith in her) making the same retort about the feds.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> Are they mutually exclusive?



To respond, I think that folks can certainly support the mountain and yet be critical of it.  And I think here that the mountain is clearly not operating properly at all due to management and criticism is indeed warranted.  I am an example of someone who supports it and is very concerned or critical of it.  I have several members of my extended family who used to work or rely on the mountain.  I learned to ski there and skied there as a kid for many years.  I try to go back every year.  I can also say that I know that VTK has a significant amount of money invested in passes up there and is a local businessman who relies on the mountain and the community.  Over the years we have had other folks here who are in the same position and have expressed concern, both publicly here and privately to me, about the mountain.  I honestly get sick and tired of the relative handful of people, some trolls to be honest, who merely dismiss the criticism as "bashing" and don't understand, or want to understand, the situation.  It would be akin to me coming into the now long-running "Cannon" thread and telling folks there to stop "bashing" that relatively well-run ski operation.  I know that folks there have concerns about Mitty, grooming, snowmaking, and racing.  I don't know off the top of my head where you stand in those disputes, but I know that over the years you've been a fan of Cannon and a good guy overall for the boards.  Hopefully you can see how upset folks are here...and rightfully so.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> To respond, I think that folks can certainly support the mountain and yet be critical of it.  And I think here that the mountain is clearly not operating properly at all due to management and criticism is indeed warranted.  I am an example of someone who supports it and is very concerned or critical of it.  I have several members of my extended family who used to work or rely on the mountain.  I learned to ski there and skied there as a kid for many years.  I try to go back every year.  I can also say that I know that VTK has a significant amount of money invested in passes up there and is a local businessman who relies on the mountain and the community.  Over the years we have had other folks here who are in the same position and have expressed concern, both publicly here and privately to me, about the mountain.  I honestly get sick and tired of the relative handful of people, some trolls to be honest, who merely dismiss the criticism as "bashing" and don't understand, or want to understand, the situation.  It would be akin to me coming into the now long-running "Cannon" thread and telling folks there to stop "bashing" that relatively well-run ski operation.  I know that folks there have concerns about Mitty, grooming, snowmaking, and racing.  I don't know off the top of my head where you stand in those disputes, but I know that over the years you've been a fan of Cannon and a good guy overall for the boards.  Hopefully you can see how upset folks are here...and rightfully so.



Thanks.  And I absolutely agree.  Which was the core of my question to you. The complexity of the Burke issues mean that stances might not be black & white or mutually exclusive.  It's possible for someone to love Burke yet still be upset with the current status.  It's possible for someone to be justifiably upset with Burke's owners yet be unjustifiably bashing them.  One does not preclude the other.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> It's possible for someone to love Burke yet still be upset with the current status.



It's impossible NOT to be.  


.


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## Puck it (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's impossible NOT to be.
> 
> 
> .


We love Cannon but we also hate it.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

Puck it said:


> We love Cannon but we also hate it.



Yes, exactly!  :lol:  Are you healed yet?  Sorry about to hear about your accident.


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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2016)

billo said:


> Anybody ever figure out how over 200 ski areas in Switzerland survive in an area the size of Vermont and New Hampshire?  I know it's not real estate either.



Ski culture, population density and incredible skiing.   

Some of these resorts only have a few surface lifts, yet offer better skiing than anything out east.   They cost little to operate.

Prime example - Arolla ski resort
http://www.arolla.com/winter/index4f.htm

Incredible skiing and immediate access to some of the best backountry skiing in the world.  From there, easy access to what is probably the most scenic Alpine hut  http://www.cabanedesvignettes.ch/

Lots of hidden gems like this.


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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2016)

Here's the map since the link above is not direct.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Ski culture, population density and incredible skiing.
> 
> Some of these resorts only have a few surface lifts, yet offer better skiing than anything out east.   They cost little to operate.
> 
> ...



And some resorts, such as Zermatt I believe, are actually run by the Country or local authorities.


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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And some resorts, such as Zermatt I believe, are actually run by the Country or local authorities.



Don't know about Zermatt but certainly the case for some of the smaller (relatively) resorts.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2016)

Another reason to get the hotel open ASAP is that interest is accruing at $55,000 per month.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Another reason to get the hotel open ASAP is that interest is accruing at $55,000 per month.
> 
> 
> .



The "investors" have that problem. Not Q. They're disowning themselves from this train wreck. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fbrissette (Mar 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The "investors" have that problem. Not Q.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That is correct.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That is correct.



Yep, and it explains why Q and Stenger are not in any hurry to get the Hotel going.  Really, really, sad.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder why VTDigger has gone silent on this mess.....they following the EB-5 projects and issues up until recently.



Today's Digger answers your question.....


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2016)

Interesting Article.

Some things still don't make sense, Stenger sounds like he is the only one still thinking there is a chance to get this thing open for summer and "wedding season".  However all reservations have been canceled and or denied for summer events with the provided time frame for opening being November.  All weddings have been canceled from what we understand so "wedding season" is pretty much a no go.

Ary and his responses at that pass holder meeting, as unintelligent as they were sure made it sound like the Q family are resigned to the fact that hotel won't be a part of operations in the near future.  Did someone forget to call Stenger?


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## mbedle (Mar 21, 2016)

There can't possible be more conflicting information out there regarding this project. The recent VT digger article states that 4.3 million of the 5.5 million owed to Peak CM has been approved for payment to Peak CM. But older articles stated that the state only had roughly 1.5 million available in the escrow account. The VT digger articles goes on to say that the remaining 1.28 million owned to Peak CM will not be paid out of the escrow account, since it includes late fees, travel and delay charges/interest. It seems odd to me that the state is not going to pay late fees and interest charges. They are probably the ones the caused those charges to accrue by making late payments to Peak CM because of their invoice reviews.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> There can't possible be more conflicting information out there regarding this project. The recent VT digger article states that 4.3 million of the 5.5 million owed to Peak CM has been approved for payment to Peak CM. But older articles stated that the state only had roughly 1.5 million available in the escrow account. The VT digger articles goes on to say that the remaining 1.28 million owned to Peak CM will not be paid out of the escrow account, since it includes late fees, travel and delay charges/interest. It seems odd to me that the state is not going to pay late fees and interest charges. They are probably the ones the caused those charges to accrue by making late payments to Peak CM because of their invoice reviews.



The state has alleged that the delay is attributable to the project's management.  Specifically, they have alleged that there was a delay of months and months to get documentation that they had requested.  (At least six months, IIRC.)

But let's assume that you are correct and that the state is the reason for the delay and late fees.  If EB-5 rules do not allow investor money to be used for these purposes, then it really doesn't matter.  I don't know what the EB-5 rules are, but if the money is intended to create jobs, it would not be surprising that the money can't be used for late fees, travel fees, etc.


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## mbedle (Mar 21, 2016)

I wasn't sure on the timing of the issues with payment. I know that back before July 2015, Q Burke apparently was tardy in getting the documents the state requested before allowing Q Burke to go look for additional investors. But we are talking about invoice payments from November onward. If they made payments before November to Peak CM, not sure what other documents they would need to make payments after November 2015. 

As far as the interest and fees, you are probably right about it not being allowed under the EB-5 program. If that is the case, than it wouldn't be necessary for Q Burke to be out looking for money to pay Peak CM with additional EB-5 investors. In other words, if that state is saying that those charges can not be paid with the escrow account, than the 1.28 million is going to have to come from Q Burke's own pocket. Very confusion and difficult to really understand what is going on with a deficient of information. Most likely won't know until all the information is released from the state under a FOIA request.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

Who the hell knows at this point. I think all of the parties involved have their own part to play in this shit sandwich. Let's hope it gets worked out.


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## Edd (Mar 21, 2016)

I'd like to see a national news show cover this to put some extra pressure on all parties and see what pops up. Too bad it's not a topic of widespread interest.


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## yeggous (Mar 21, 2016)

Edd said:


> I'd like to see a national news show cover this to put some extra pressure on all parties and see what pops up. Too bad it's not a topic of widespread interest.



Correct, nobody cares. This issue impacts a very small group of people. There are much better stories out there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

A lot to work through here....some conflicting statements and facts....but one thing that jumped out at me was that in this article Davis pointed the finger more at Stenger and Q than the State.  In the Cal Rec article he blamed the State.  Same with the LSC and BFP stories.  Interesting.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 21, 2016)

And they will close this pitifull year this weekend.


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## Big Wave Dave (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I forgot to mention that there was a Masskier sighting at the meeting!  I guess he was able to pull himself away from all of the potential customers at the Bear Path open house to attend the meeting.



this is just rude. the man has committed capital and taken risks and should be applauded for it, not derided.

interesting take in the Digger today. They seemed to have dropped their muckraking tone in favor of just reporting what this situation seems to be, a giant mess. The more we know, the less we know.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this is just rude. the man has committed capital and taken risks and should be applauded for it, not derided.



I don't think any of us are critical of his investments, but I don't think you have a long enough history with AZ to understand that Masskier is notorious for coming on here and stating things about the mountain that are plain wrong or slanted because of his interests.  What I am saying is that his credibility has been called into question many times.  That's why folks pick on him.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think any of us are critical of his investments, but I don't think you have a long enough history with AZ to understand that Masskier is notorious for coming on here and stating things about the mountain that are plain wrong or slanted because of his interests.  What I am saying is that his credibility has been called into question many times.  That's why folks pick on him.


He only knows what he has been told like all the rest of us. Of course he has historically had a positive spin on most subjects. I'm sure he has A LOT of money tied up in the condos he has built and why would he want to take a negative path.

Personally, I've tried to stay positive throughout this compounded debacle of hotel not opening and Q Jr ineptness; hoping that it would all work out in the end. Since I don't have my work so closely tied to the Q's, I have more freedom to talk critically without completely torching any remaining bridges.

However, now we are all here wallowing in this mess as the situation seems to be ever sliding closer toward a worst case scenario. The Negative Nellies ended up being right and now they can rub the starry eyed hopeful's noses in it. But what good does that do for anyone other than make yourselves feel better for being able to say "I told you so!".

So like BWD said "the man has committed capital and taken risks and should be applauded for it, not derided." Masskier has WAY more invested in this situation than just his feelings. He should have a lot more slack than many of you are giving him.


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2016)

I was actually glad to have the note about the Masskier sighting as I was truly beginning to worry about him.

As much as I have given him some crap along the way for the sometimes wildly rosy picture he painted, I don't think anyone really wishes him any ill will.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't want to rub anyone's nose in anything except maybe Jr.....as the epic fail of Q is not a good thing for the region.  Watching Q hack away at what community support was left at the end of Ginn years was painful to watch as many of us knew they were digging a large hole even if their plans for build out came to fruition.

And now it seems that Sr. Jr. and Stenger can't even get on a conference call to get on the same page to present a united front to the media.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> He only knows what he has been told like all the rest of us. Of course he has historically had a positive spin on most subjects. I'm sure he has A LOT of money tied up in the condos he has built and why would he want to take a negative path.
> 
> Personally, I've tried to stay positive throughout this compounded debacle of hotel not opening and Q Jr ineptness; hoping that it would all work out in the end. Since I don't have my work so closely tied to the Q's, I have more freedom to talk critically without completely torching any remaining bridges.
> 
> ...



To each his own, FTN.  As to Masskier nobody is taking away anything about what he has done.  They are reacting to him and what he says.  When one says things that are not true and treats folks with condescension there are consequences.  I know for a fact that besides the things he has said here that I know he has rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way.   

Even then the original post was not THAT bad.  It just said that Masskier (who outed himself here several years ago) was seen.  Big deal.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

I made the comment because people had been wondering where Masskier had gone to.  Masskier has been very insistent that condo sales at Q Burke are very healthy.  I just echoed what he has been saying to us.  Nothing more.

I agree that if Masskier had said otherwise it could be seen as being rude.  But that is not at all what Masskier has been saying.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Even then the original post was not THAT bad.  It just said that Masskier (who outed himself here several years ago) was seen.  Big deal.


The part about him being "seen" was not that bad. The part that was bad was 





> _I guess he was able to pull himself away from all of the potential customers at the Bear Path open house to attend the meeting._


That is a low blow. It is almost celebratory that, due to a situation completely out of his control, Masskier is likely struggling to sell condos that he has invested heavily in building. That was completely unnecessary. VTKilarny might as well have just walked up to him at the meeting and kicked him in the balls, pointed at him a given him a





.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree that if Masskier had said otherwise it could be seen as being rude.  But that is not at all what Masskier has been saying.


The last time he said ANYTHING about condo sales being okay was almost a year ago. The fact that he isn't on here publicly lamenting the shit sandwich that has come to pass at Burke doesn't mean you have to keep poking him in the eye.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

I honestly have no reason to believe that condo sales have been impacted in the last year or so.  I will be the first to admit that I was ribbing him, but again, I was careful not to do anything too annoying which is why I was careful to merely echo his own comments.  (I really did give it some thought.)  But your point is well taken.  I certainly don't wish any ill will whatsoever toward him.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

It's going to be a long summer........

:roll:


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2016)

All joking and BS aside; how is the condo market on the mountain at this point?

How has this mess impacted that aspect of things?

Initially we were speculating that rental demand would drop with the hotel, but then we had the worst ski season most can remember so hotel or no hotel demand was going to be soft.

How silly an idea would it be to sell the suites in one wing of the hotel off as condos or time shares or some other model vs. straight up hotel?

Just some random thoughts bouncing in my head.......evidently there is plenty of space in my head for them....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> A
> 
> How silly an idea would it be to sell the suites in one wing of the hotel off as condos or time shares or some other model vs. straight up hotel?
> 
> Just some random thoughts bouncing in my head.......evidently there is plenty of space in my head for them....



I think that is clearly the plan for the "Exit Plan" and to pay off the investors.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It's going to be a long summer........
> 
> :roll:



Well winter was the shortest we've ever seen so a long summer is going to be inevitable :wink:

In a not at all surprising note: The Joe's Pond Assoc has had to come out with a contingency plan in case the ice goes out before the April 1st deadline to buy tickets.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

Here are some thoughts on the latest VTD article from this morning from me:

1.  Again, interesting that Davis now is aiming his criticism at Stenger and Q.  
2.  I see that the "we will pay you soon" refrain from Stenger is back....
3.  I'm not sure what he means by "amenities" portion...I take it that is the Aquatic and Bike Centers?
4.  Looks like a big part of the pissing match between DFR, Q, and Peak CM has to do with "extra" charges for late payments, mileage, etc.
5.  One hand is not talking to the other....Q says Hotel will open November, Stenger says "30-45 days", and Ary thinks not even next year.
6.  They did not have enough money...only $45.65 million in October...and work on the Hotel did stall due to lack of money.  


In the end I think that they were too optimistic with their plans and in their abilities to raise money.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

I know I sound like a broken record, but it is so upsetting to see a hotel that completed (or nearly completed) sitting idle.  My one hope is that they figure out a way to get the hotel up and running.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> He only knows what he has been told like all the rest of us. Of course he has historically had a positive spin on most subjects. I'm sure he has A LOT of money tied up in the condos he has built and why would he want to take a negative path.
> 
> 
> 
> However, now we are all here wallowing in this mess as the situation seems to be ever sliding closer toward a worst case scenario. The Negative Nellies ended up being right and now they can rub the starry eyed hopeful's noses in it. But what good does that do for anyone other than make yourselves feel better for being able to say "I told you so!"..




        I'm thinking Canary in the coal mine is closer than negative nellies............


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> I'm thinking Canary in the coal mine is closer than negative nellies............



The people accused of being "negative" have been correct.  That's the bottom line.  Assuming that people don't support thought police, it's not productive to criticize factual correctness.  It would be more appropriate to criticize those whose beliefs proved to be way off base - not that I would ever do that because sharing differing opinions makes for healthy conversation.  I obviously have no problem telling someone that I believe they are wrong, but I would never begrudge their right to share their opinion.


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## mbedle (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that is clearly the plan for the "Exit Plan" and to pay off the investors.



I am pretty sure that is what they did up at Jay.


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## mbedle (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The people accused of being "negative" have been correct.  That's the bottom line.  Assuming that people don't support thought police, it's not productive to criticize factual correctness.  It would be more appropriate to criticize those whose beliefs proved to be way off base - not that I would ever do that because sharing differing opinions makes for healthy conversation.  I obviously have no problem telling someone that I believe they are wrong, but I would never begrudge their right to share their opinion.



Good answer - I've said that before on this forum. I've tried to offer a different perspective on this post and other posts, by being an outsider and in business. And sometime I get it right, but most times I'm way off base. Doesn't matter, its just good conversation.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

1) First and foremost, my thoughts are with the affected employees.  
2) It's troubling to see that the Rapid Response Team will be on-site because this suggests that the layoffs are quite deep.  I am glad that the Rapid Response Team will be available as a resource, though.

It was very clear from the pass holder meeting that staffing was going to be VERY lean as we move forward.  It's a real catch-22.  You need quality customer service to draw people in, but if you can't afford sufficient staffing how can you provide quality customer service?  This is getting dangerously close to a death spiral.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

I just noticed that LSC News 7 also has a blurb about Peak CM's Jerry Davis threatening legal action if his bill is not paid.  As Trailboss noticed, it appears as if Mr. Davis is becoming much more vocal about his displeasure with Mr. Stenger and crew.  Since Peak CM had been tapped to construct AnC Bio (at least according to their webpage), this may be a sign that Mr. Davis has become much less confident in his likelihood of getting future work from Mr. Stenger and Mr. Quiros.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

FYI, here is the new general manager at Q Burke:
http://www.mei-vt.com/chief-executive-officer-1.html

It looks like he has brought at least one person with him.  The layoff announcement was issued by Andy Barter, who is still listed as the human resource director for Mike's Electric.
http://www.mei-vt.com/human-resources-director.html

Hopefully Andy didn't get Ary too upset by spelling the company name incorrectly on the layoff announcement.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

Random thought:  this may be a smokescreen or a play to get the State to approve of the remaining expenses for the Hotel.  It is an election year and certain elected officials would hate to see people laid off.  In addition, it's the end of the season and they lay off most of their staff anyway this time of year.  So this just seems to be stating the obvious and trying to get attention.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

My gut tells me that this is not the case.  Elected officials are no longer willing to even have their photograph taken with Stenger and Quiros.  I don't see them sticking their neck out under these circumstances.

Judging by what was said at the passholder meeting, I think that the cuts are going to be very deep and very real.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> My gut tells me that this is not the case.  Elected officials are no longer willing to even have their photograph taken with Stenger and Quiros.  I don't see them sticking their neck out under these circumstances.



No, the point being to pressure the DFR and State to move things along.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> No, the point being to pressure the DFR and State to move things along.



Except that the state is only holding about $1.25 million of the $5.5 million owed.  So even if this strategy works, where does it get them?


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Random thought:  this may be a smokescreen or a play to get the State to approve of the remaining expenses for the Hotel.  It is an election year and certain elected officials would hate to see people laid off.  In addition, it's the end of the season and they lay off most of their staff anyway this time of year.  So this just seems to be stating the obvious and trying to get attention.



They usually operate the campground and the mountain bike park. The Base Lodge hosts LI's prom, a Mother's Day Fun Run, a Fourth of July Celebration along with many other events. It's unfortunate they can't find something else for "Little A" to do as he has single handedly destroyed Burke's image and product in a way that no other owner (relative of an owner) ever managed to do. I know, " he went to ski school" in Spain. He must not have had a very good grasp of Spanish because I don't think he learned very much. If the Mountain folds it will be due to his arrogance and mismanagement and not the lack of a hotel.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Except that the state is only holding about $1.25 million of the $5.5 million owed.  So even if this strategy works, where does it get them?



Yes, but getting that $1.25 million out and into Davis' hands is progress.  Get it?  And read the not-so-veiled jab at the State.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> They usually operate the campground and the mountain bike park. The Base Lodge hosts LI's prom along with many other events. It's unfortunate they can't find something else for "Little A" to do as he has single handedly destroyed Burke's image and product in a way that no other owner (relative of an owner) ever managed to do. I know, " he went to ski school" in Spain. He must not have had a very good grasp of Spanish because I don't think he learned very much. If the Mountain folds it will be due to his arrogance and mismanagement and not the lack of a hotel.



Don't forget he was an "intern" at a hotel as well.  :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, but getting that $1.25 million out and into Davis' hands is progress.  Get it?  And read the not-so-veiled jab at the State.



True.  


.


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## oldtimer (Mar 21, 2016)

BTW-  The long term, very dedicated, and very caring HR women was let go last week and immediately ESCORTED out of the building.  awful.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> BTW-  The long term, very dedicated, and very caring HR women was let go last week and immediately ESCORTED out of the building.  awful.



I know her.  She is an absolute class act and was 100% dedicated for years despite being paid very little.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't forget he was an "intern" at a hotel as well.  :roll:



But, but...



> Leading the team that will be developing, building, and running Q Burke  Mountain Resort is Ary Quiros Jr., President and CEO. *Ary brings an  extensive hospitality background* and a get-your-hands-dirty ethic that  fits in perfectly with the Burke spirit.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 21, 2016)

It's been said over and over and over... He needs to GO!


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2016)

So sad to see this whole thing crumble and the good people of the NEK are the ones taking it in the rear while Q and Stenger muddle through their BS.

At least the previous owners were able to provide consistent employment for some folks and keep a simple pub afloat.......Jr is so inept it isn't even funny.  He claims not having a loyal staff is the issue......loyalty is earned asshat.......if you don't have a loyal staff, the answer is in the mirror.  Successful managers know this.


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## tumbler (Mar 21, 2016)

All of this is not good. They will struggle to open next year. Can't run a business with no money. Sucks.


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## yeggous (Mar 21, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> BTW-  The long term, very dedicated, and very caring HR women was let go last week and immediately ESCORTED out of the building.  awful.



This is standard practice with HR or IT staff. Some companies do it with all employees.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## oldtimer (Mar 21, 2016)

In the end, it is the escorted part that got me the most.  She is a very nice woman.  She was dedicated.  Bad enough that they want to replace her with some hack from Mike's Electric.  But to escort her out is the ultimate sign of disrespect.  Ary & flack Mike did not respect her.  Ary and flack Mike do not respect any of us "hicks".  (I cannot tell you how pissed off I was when Ary complained that he cannot accommodate the community because they want his money & w/o profit he has no money.)

WE DO NOT WANT YOUR MONEY.  Stop talking down to us about creating jobs, Stop lying that you are happy the staff you drive out is making other places successful.  Stop lying about the hotel.  Mike sung the praises of the Q family for bringing the hotel to Burke.  Then when someone asked a question about the hotel, suddenly you knew nothing about the hotel finances .  DO NOT LIE TO US.

Ary is correct, the mountain has not been financially successful operationally for years.  But he is WRONG that this is due to a staff that was incompetent or not dedicated.  Was there fat?   probably.  but on the operational level that was gone long ago.  HE and his crew made promises about a hotel and then found other people's money to build it with.  Along they way, they screwed up and there was no hotel this winter.  Does the state have a minor role in this?  Probably.  BUT again, we know Ary is lying when he says that he knows better than Davis or Stenger.  Blame it on the state?  At best, that is 20% of the current problem.

No hotel & So they take it out on what little staff is left. 

We want a business on the hill that we are proud to have in our midst and shares our values.  Shit canning hard working and dedicated staff because why?  Because they do not prove their loyalty to Q over and over?  because at minimum wage they are overpaid?  because Q & company screwed up and didn't get the hotel open?  

Mike's first day on the job as a visible presence?  throwing people out of the lift line.  The only employees left when this is all said and done?  probably the ticket scanners-  so they can be sure no one cheats them out of a day pass to watch a lift sit idle.  They do not respect their customers- we locals are hicks just waiting for a chance to screw Q.  THey will catch us and put us in our place.  "us" againt the world.

Mike can stand up there and say "Q is quality".  But we who live here know with certainty that this is not true.  Integrity and wanting to work with the community is in no way evidenced by their DEEDS.  They can leave their lying words at home.  We see what you do.  Let us not forget the GM who never actually started there because he thought Q was wrong to fire the bar tender whose family had a medical problem and they didn't want to cover it.  That GM understood that we are judged by our values and integrity, not our checkbooks.

Yes, the death spiral may have started.  Cut and cut they may- that will leave Ary and Mike fighting operational fires they cannot put out.

It is inconceivable sad to see these clowns shit on people who get up at obscenely early hours, drive through horrible roads to get to work on time, climb lift towers when it is minus 20 to get a lift running, in general do it very very short money, and up until this year do it with a smile.  We welcomed Q'jr as we have many before him.  He has in no way fulfilled his end of the bargain.  He is not from here.


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## River19 (Mar 21, 2016)

Fantastic post oldtimer........


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## halfpintvt (Mar 21, 2016)

Dear Oldtimer, your last post is an incredibly sad and poignant summary of what has happened at Burke. I wish this situation could change but I fear that even "the shiny new hotel" will not make a difference as long as "Little A(rrogant)" is in charge.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

Can someone explain to me why Mike left a seemingly very successful electrical company to go work for Q?  My worry is that this is a glorified hobby and that he'll be back at his electrical company sooner than later.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 21, 2016)

Really don't think the 2 new guys will make it long, until they are sent down the road too.


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## 56fish (Mar 21, 2016)

Perhaps the challenge.  Maybe he's read some of the nearly 7000 posts re Burke and, hopes he may help.  Request from Stenger.  Ask next time you see him.


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## KingdomBC (Mar 21, 2016)

I don't chime in often, but that is hands down the most honest and on-point post in this entire thread, oldtimer.
The community is not the problem. The staff are not the problem. A lack of respect for the community and people that made the mountain what it is (was?), is what has tanked  that place.  They must have lost more money in the last few seasons doing it "my way" as they have ever lost, good year or bad.

Q is quality?  BS. Q is a disconnected, dishonest, arrogant neophyte that only gets by because daddy cuts the checks.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 21, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> In the end, it is the escorted part that got me the most.  She is a very nice woman.  She was dedicated.  Bad enough that they want to replace her with some hack from Mike's Electric.  But to escort her out is the ultimate sign of disrespect.  Ary & flack Mike did not respect her.  Ary and flack Mike do not respect any of us "hicks".  (I cannot tell you how pissed off I was when Ary complained that he cannot accommodate the community because they want his money & w/o profit he has no money.)
> 
> WE DO NOT WANT YOUR MONEY.  Stop talking down to us about creating jobs, Stop lying that you are happy the staff you drive out is making other places successful.  Stop lying about the hotel.  Mike sung the praises of the Q family for bringing the hotel to Burke.  Then when someone asked a question about the hotel, suddenly you knew nothing about the hotel finances .  DO NOT LIE TO US.
> 
> ...




Great post, pretty much says it all.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

Oldtimer,

There are people on this forum who just stick their nose in the air and accuse posts like yours of "Burke bashing."  Don't let them discourage you from sharing your feelings.  You are not alone in your thoughts.

In the past couple of days, I've begun to feel more strongly than ever that Burke simply can't survive so long as Q Jr. is at the helm.  I kept hope alive that he would learn even if he didn't have the proper experience.  But the last two pass holder meetings have made me believe that he has not learned anything at all.  

I just pray that SOMEBODY comes along who can run the mountain better.  I hope that the subcontractors get paid.  I hope that Jerry Davis gets paid.  And most of all, I hope that the hotel gets opened and that we put some good people to work.  If it takes a foreclosure (aka "short sale") action to get that done, then so be it.  

People can call me a basher, but I am going to say what I've been thinking recently: I give Burke about a 50% chance of being an operating mountain two years from now if something isn't done very quickly.  I'd be happy as could be if my fear is proven to be correct, but I'm as worried now as I've ever been.


----------



## Edd (Mar 21, 2016)

This HR lady. Is she the head of HR? Is there any HR left?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

Oldtimer... Perfect


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There are people on this forum who just stick their nose in the air and accuse posts like yours of "Burke bashing."  Don't let them discourage you from sharing your feelings.  You are not alone in your thoughts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> Fantastic post oldtimer........



Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

FTNek,

You weren't the one I was thinking of.  You are an optimist, for sure, but you engage in actual discussion, rather than just shooting the messenger.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

Edd said:


> This HR lady. Is she the head of HR? Is there any HR left?



If the most recent letter is any indication, the new GM brought an HR person with him from his electrical company.  The person they let go was the head HR person.  I doubt that she had any staff, however.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> FTN,
> 
> You weren't the one I was thinking of.  You are an optimist, for sure, but you engage in actual discussion, rather than just shooting the messenger.



FWIW, my optimism has SERIOUSLY faded over the last several months. You can count me in the boat of being seriously worried about the future of the mountain. Hopefully, the boat can be small and not become a fleet of life rafts.


----------



## Edd (Mar 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Oldtimer,
> 
> There are people on this forum who just stick their nose in the air and accuse posts like yours of "Burke bashing."  Don't let them discourage you from sharing your feelings.  You are not alone in your thoughts.



You kind of just made his post about you. I think this is a fairly safe environment to call out Burke's problems.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

Edd said:


> I think this is a fairly safe environment to call out Burke's problems.



It hasn't been for me at least.  No big deal, but a spade is a spade.  Heck, my most vocal critic never even skied Burke this year. But he felt entitled to lay into me for discussing problems with my home mountain - problems that proved to be very real.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

The worst part about Ary is that I'm not even sure he realizes he is lying. He is the purest form of narcissistic management.

From Wikipedia:


> [h=4]Narcissism in the workplace[edit][/h]_Main article: Narcissism in the workplace_
> Narcissism as a personality trait, generally assessed with the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, is related to behavior in the workplace. For example, individuals high on narcissism are more likely to engage in counterproductive work behavior (CWB, behavior that harms organizations or other people in the workplace).[SUP][55][/SUP] Although individuals high on narcissism might engage in more aggressive (and counterproductive) behaviors, they mainly do so when their self-esteem is threatened.[SUP][56][/SUP] Thus narcissistic employees are more likely to engage in CWB when they feel threatened.[SUP][57][/SUP] Individuals high in narcissism have fragile self-esteem and are easily threatened. One study found that employees who are high on narcissism are more likely to perceive the behaviors of others in the workplace as abusive and threatening than individuals who are low on narcissism.[SUP][58][/SUP]
> The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate - status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views; and animate - flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates.[SUP][59][/SUP] Teammates may find everyday offers of support swiftly turn them into enabling sources of permanent supply, unless they are very careful to maintain proper boundaries.[SUP][60][/SUP] The need to protect such supply networks will prevent the narcissistic managers from taking objective decisions;[SUP][61][/SUP] while long-term strategies will be evaluated according to their potential for attention-gaining for the manager themself.[SUP][62][/SUP]
> Organizational psychologist Alan Downs wrote a book in 1997 describing corporate narcissism.[SUP][63][/SUP] He explores high-profile corporate leaders (such as Al Dunlap and Robert Allen) who, he suggests, literally have only one thing on their minds: profits. According to Downs, such narrow focus actually may yield positive short-term benefits, but ultimately it drags down individual employees as well as entire companies. Alternative thinking is proposed, and some firms now utilizing these options are examined. Downs' theories are relevant to those suggested by Victor Hill in his book, _Corporate Narcissism in Accounting Firms Australia_.[SUP][64][/SUP]



His self esteem is so low that he feels it is everyone else's fault for what is happening. What the hell is going on? Why is Sr. allowing this to sink so far? None of us understands the thought process that is killing Burke Mountain.


----------



## Edd (Mar 21, 2016)

It would be surreal to read an internet thread with a bunch of strangers ripping apart my job performance. I think of that often, reading this thread. But, when your actions affect so many people and livelihoods, you should bring your A game. 

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but does anyone think he is NOT reading this thread? To ignore it would be mind-blowing to me.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2016)

I've never thought that he reads this, at least not in a long time.  I don't think that he gives a rat's ass what people here think.  And maybe he shouldn't.  I'll be the first to admit that I'm an amateur when it comes to ski area management.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

He's too busy making videos with his phone to post up to Facebook to be concerned with this forum.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

Edd said:


> It would be surreal to read an internet thread with a bunch of strangers ripping apart my job performance. I think of that often, reading this thread. But, when your actions affect so many people and livelihoods, you should bring your A game.
> 
> I'm sure this has been mentioned, but does anyone think he is NOT reading this thread? To ignore it would be mind-blowing to me.



If he does read it, it is just more ammunition to prove that everyone is against him and that he has to double down on his strategy in order to prove them wrong.


----------



## Brad J (Mar 21, 2016)

I have skied Burke Mt twice in the past two years, although there are many problems that have been exposed in these posts, and I for one have had very positive feelings about the Mt. Not sure about how the future will play out but Its a fun mountain to ski, has great lifts and the vibe on the hill was good. My wife and I love the place!! I really feel for the people who have skied their for years and call it their home mountain. Even with the worst snow in years the day I went there the mountain skied great (3/6), easily the beat groomed conditions I have skied this year here in the east. I hope and Pray that some lightning will strike and the management will wake up and give the attention the place needs and deserves.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 21, 2016)

No doubt that it is a great mountain. That is why we are all so passionate about it and want to see it succeed. On the surface a day at Burke to an outsider might appear things are okay, but once you pull back the curtain, even just a little bit, you can see that things are going horribly wrong. And like we have all been saying, it starts and ends with the guy running the place.

I fear Burke is going to end up like Ascutney. Even if a local conglomerate of interested parties wanted to save it. I'm afraid the financial mess will be so great that the mountain assets will be tied up for years until it is all sorted out.
Now I'm starting to sound like VTK :wink:


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## halfpintvt (Mar 21, 2016)

Burke is a great mountain  but as long as the Chief Egomaniacs Offspring remains in charge it will never prosper. Ary has respect for no one but demands respect from all. He does not value other peoples wisdom and experience and acts as if he is the only one with a brain. If this were true I wouldn't mind but almost 3 years into this project he continues to make the same mistakes and his scorched earth management style has done nothing to improve the mountain. A shiny new hotel will not fix this problem. Ary needs to go but I don't think that will happen. These people (Big A and Little A) feel that they bought this mountain and they can do what ever they want with it. If that means running it into the ground, that's what they'll do and then write off the loss. I feel sorry for Bill Stenger , they have seriously tarnished his brand and made it very hard for him to get the rest of the $$ he needs to complete this project.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

I have used the term "unsustainable" several times since this thread began and old timer pretty well summed up why in that post. I am amazed at the level of dislike, distrust, disrepect, and general anger that Ary has created at every level within and without his organization and, today, I see total failure as the only way to stop it. Bring Back Burke !


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm thinking VTK wanted this here...



> According to the Caledonian Record, 45 of the layoffs are full time,  year round positions.  The majority of the positions are hotel staff.   There are a total of 180 layoffs.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'm thinking VTK wanted this here...



Yup.  Thanks for that!


----------



## mbedle (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm surprised that a resort the size of Q Burke actually has more than 45 full-time staff. Not being confrontational here, but blaming Ary for the downfall of this place is a little short sighted. It is also unfair to blame Ary for anything to do with the Hotel. The failure of this resort and the hotel falls solely on the owners. They ultimately have watched and allowed their company to be mismanaged. Of course, firing your son is no easy task.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 22, 2016)

Stenger has to be regretting bringing the Qidiots into the fold.  there is no way he thinks otherwise.  He may never say it publicly, but clearly this plan has 100% backfired...


----------



## tumbler (Mar 22, 2016)

My only peeve with oldtimes very good post is the last line "he's not from here"  Many people that own businesses in VT are not from there.  I have always had an issue with the "you're not from here" but the person is running a successful business that is employing people that for "from here"  Not referring to Q.  An example of someone making it work is Win Smith who embraced the MRV community and slowly eroded years of discontent with Sugarbush.


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## tumbler (Mar 22, 2016)

Anyone know if Mile's Electric was the electrical contractor for the hotel?  Web page shows a lot of work at Jay...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

tumbler said:


> My only peeve with oldtimes very good post is the last line "he's not from here"  Many people that own businesses in VT are not from there.


100% agree.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Anyone know if Mile's Electric was the electrical contractor for the hotel?  Web page shows a lot of work at Jay...



I believe that their Facebook page said that they did work on the Q Burke hotel.


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## Cannonball (Mar 22, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I fear Burke is going to end up like Ascutney.





Brad J said:


> I hope and Pray that some lightning will strike



I know it's not what either of you meant, but's it's scary to put these two thoughts together and look down the road. The Ascutney debacle is an all too recent reminder of just how really bad these things can play out.  Hopefully Burke(-Q) can find a way to turn this around and turn all those improvements into a success.


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## tumbler (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I believe that their Facebook page said that they did work on the Q Burke hotel.



So, has he been paid?  Interesting dynamic of bringing him onto the management team...


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I'm surprised that a resort the size of Q Burke actually has more than 45 full-time staff. Not being confrontational here, but blaming Ary for the downfall of this place is a little short sighted. It is also unfair to blame Ary for anything to do with the Hotel. The failure of this resort and the hotel falls solely on the owners. They ultimately have watched and allowed their company to be mismanaged. Of course, firing your son is no easy task.



The full time staff includes many (if not all) of the new hires that were brought in over the last several months to staff the hotel. I imagine that accounts for more than half of the force reduction.


In a somewhat indirect way, I think Ary has played a HUGE part in the failure to raise the necessary money for the hotel. Looking back over the last couple of years, things really started to unravel when Ary started burning bridges with local organizations. The most public of which was Kingdom Trails. That led to a lot of negative internet traffic (both mainstream media and social media). If I was an potential EB5 investor, a simple Google search of what I was looking at investing in would probably turn up a lot of this negative news. Would I want to invest in a project at a resort run by someone with such questionable business ethics and lack of experience? Hell no. 

The whole plan has gone so sour at this point and there is really still not anything any of us can do about it.


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## burski (Mar 22, 2016)

tumbler said:


> So, has he been paid?  Interesting dynamic of bringing him onto the management team...



It is my understanding that MEI, has a long history with the Q's - the Q's may have even helped MEI go from a mom and pop contractor to their current size.  Being in the trades, I know most electrical contractors would not bid the Q Burke Hotel job b/c MEI was going to get the work no matter what the price - I think the same could be said for Peak CM - This company also came out of nowhere - if someone ever does some real digging and peals back the layers I think this thing may only get uglier...


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## the original trailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

tumbler said:


> My only peeve with oldtimes very good post is the last line "he's not from here"  Many people that own businesses in VT are not from there.  I have always had an issue with the "you're not from here" but the person is running a successful business that is employing people that for "from here"  Not referring to Q.  An example of someone making it work is Win Smith who embraced the MRV community and slowly eroded years of discontent with Sugarbush.



In my experience, the term "not from here" or "flatlander" has been a reflection of attitude projected, not state of origin.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

burski said:


> if someone ever does some real digging and peals back the layers I think this thing may only get uglier...


If the disclosures are to be believed, that digging is happening.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> In my experience, the term "not from here" or "flatlander" has been a reflection of attitude projected, not state of origin.



Exactly.


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## oldtimer (Mar 22, 2016)

thank you -  that is exactly my usage of the term.  

As a humorous aside on that subject, I had the great good experience of working for some very old time Mainers as a kid.  At one point my boss was asked by a parent if, since their child was born in Maine, that made the child a Mainer.  My bosses response was instantaneous-   "If a kitten is born in an oven, does that make it a biscuit?"

and the inverse is also true.





the original trailboss said:


> In my experience, the term "not from here" or "flatlander" has been a reflection of attitude projected, not state of origin.


----------



## tumbler (Mar 22, 2016)

the original trailboss said:


> In my experience, the term "not from here" or "flatlander" has been a reflection of attitude projected, not state of origin.



As long as you have green plates on your car!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

I was up in Newport today and spoke with some people who are very familiar with Burke's new GM.  He sounds like a very interesting guy, to put it mildly.  When they spoke about his history, it unfortunately didn't involve ski area management.  Hopefully he transitions well.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

LSC News 7 continues to do very good work covering the hotel story.
Their broadcast archive is up for today's newscast here:
http://campus.lyndonstate.edu/news7/archives/archive.html

The state is going on the offensive, at least to News 7.

There is also coverage on Monday's News 7 broadcast.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

New VTDigger article:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/03/22/q-burke-resort-lays-off-180-workers/


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> LSC News 7 continues to do very good work covering the hotel story.
> Their broadcast archive is up for today's newscast here:
> http://campus.lyndonstate.edu/news7/archives/archive.html
> 
> ...



Moulton needs to get canned.  That said, it is not the State's fault that Q did not raise enough money.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> New VTDigger article:
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/03/22/q-burke-resort-lays-off-180-workers/



Confirms my thoughts that this is a political stunt by Q against the State and to convince potential investors that it is the mean old State to blame.  This is why:



> Several other ski areas in Vermont have also closed early because of the unseasonably warm weather, and it is typical for ski areas to lay off seasonal workers in the spring.



They said that the seasonal workers plus the 45 FT employees for the Hotel (that haven't even started) are laid off.  That is no surprise at all.  I think it is laughable that they are laying off these folks and firing others to replace them with clowns who have no experience at all.  The new "HR guy" who wrote that press release doesn't have any marketing experience.  That press release was pretty lame.  



> In a swipe at the state, resort officials said in the news release announcing the layoffs that “Q Burke Mountain Resort has worked diligently to create jobs and to retain personnel even through rough times, however, job creation, job retention, and economic development do not seem to be as important to the state as previously believed.”
> 
> Patricia Moulton, secretary of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development, said that “it seems convenient to blame the state for the small amount of money that has been held.” Moulton said the state has $120,000 in architectural fees left to approve.
> 
> “We’re not the reason they’re laying off people,” Moulton said, and she emphasized that “the state is not to blame for the reason the hotel hasn’t been opened.”




And it seems that they certainly have collected enough money to pay for the project....except for their own "cut" of the action:



> As of December, the owners had collected money from 103 investors, or about $56.65 million in EB-5 foreign investor funds and fees, according to state documents.



My heart goes out to my friends and family who have been impacted by Q's complete incompetence and sheer arrogance.  Instead of issuing lame press releases that scape goat others, he should be reaching out to the community to get them to come to Pond Skimming or do something to improve their business.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

The new HR guy is just a contractor.  Maybe that's why he couldn't even spell the company name correctly.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The new HR guy is just a contractor.  Maybe that's why he couldn't even spell the company name correctly.



Which one was incorrect?  I did not see it.....

I also thought it was interesting that he called himself an "designated representative."  WTF?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Which one was incorrect?



Look at his letter again. He didn't put a space between "Q" and "Burke" even though the letterhead had it there for him to see.  Nit picking, I know, but if they can't get the little things right they sure aren't going to get the big things right.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Look at his letter again. He didn't out a space between "Q" and "Burke" even though the letterhead had it there for him to see.  Nit picking, I know, but if they can't get the little things right they sure aren't going to get the big things right.



I was wondering if that was what you were saying....Q Burke vs. QBurke.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I was wondering if that was what you were saying....Q Burke vs. QBurke.



I'm just saddened about the whole thing since I know who they let go.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm just saddened about the whole thing since I know who they let go.



As we heard Q admitted that he just cannot get good staff......it's too bad he has that problem.  :roll:


----------



## River19 (Mar 23, 2016)

At this point, the details of who owns what % of the blame are really a footnote in this thing; the hotel opening and pinning the future expansion and investment on the hotel revenues were an epic fail.  The shitty warm ski season just exposed all the rocks in the bay on this whole thing.

I find it very interesting how the tone from both the State and Davis has changed over the past 2 weeks.  I think both parties seem to be tired of being blamed in public by the Teflon Q Clan.  Again, true leaders take accountability, their first move is not to blame others.  This goes along with the clueless thought process of "I don't have a team that is loyal to me".  As I stated the other day; loyalty is earned and there is no place where that is more evident than in the NEK. 

Another sign of poor leadership is the multiple uncoordinated and contradictory documented public story lines from Q, Stenger and Jr.  If there was a strong leadership group worthy of investing in, there would be one narrative and it would be consistent from person to person and from week to week.

Again, very sad.

Best case scenario, invest in a good bike season.  Come up with a real solid plan for F&B and a firm plan on opening that hotel and then work on building a real team starting with changes at the top right on down.  Ary should have been sent packing last year when he supposedly was removing himself from operations..........one of the first of many lies and fantasy speak from the Q clan.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2016)

I haven't lost hope that the hotel will open, although I agree that a delay of just shy of a year is an epic fail.  Especially since they delay was not construction related.

The "I haven't had a team that's loyal to me" line was especially aggravating.  Quiros is the one who brought these people in.  In the case of the general manager, he's hired several of them.  So what Quiros really means is, "I have no clue how to hire people that I can lead and trust."  That's not a good thing.  Of course this assumes that his leadership is capable in the first place.

This whole thing is really bumming me out.  My frustration has always been in the context of believing that some major housekeeping was needed.  I never really thought about the mountain failing.  Now that thought has crept into my mind, which makes everything seem that much more sad.  There are still ways out of this mess, but until I see some actual progress in that regard I am going to be worried.


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 23, 2016)

I actually think what you are seeing here w/r/t the hotel is Stenger versus Jr. 

From Stenger's standpoint, his name is all over the EB-5 part of this, and he is a partner in the hotel ownership group.  Suppose the ownership group comes up with the $- Bill certainly is saying they are very, very close if they have not already done it.  They pay off Peak (with or without the money the state may or may not be holding-  most rational players would turn over the CO if the only part missing was the small part that state is fussing over).  My guess is that once the CO is turned over, then the operating company owes the $55k/ month to the ownership group.  Clearly, that is best for Bill and the hotel owners.

What I think will happen is then, Ary says, oh no, your delay forced me to cancel all these weddings and reservations, I don't want the hotel until November, then the fight is on.

If past performance is any guide to the future, I foresee some version of this scenario.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2016)

The latest:  http://www.wcax.com/story/31560435/q-burke-mountain-project-could-experience-more-delays


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## VTKilarney (Mar 24, 2016)

Sounds like Stenger and Quiros are not seeing eye to eye.


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 24, 2016)

So basically he's sowing the seeds so that he can blame the failure of the ski area on the lack of a shiny, new hotel rather than his piss poor management style. I foresee a steep drop in season pass sales.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Sounds like Stenger and Quiros are not seeing eye to eye.



I'd like to throw this out to our good friend, Ary:



"I thought by now you'd realize there ain't no way to hide your lying eyes."


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> So basically he's sowing the seeds so that he can blame the failure of the ski area on the lack of a shiny, new hotel rather than his piss poor management style.



Exactly.


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## River19 (Mar 24, 2016)

When the shit hits the fan, fake leaders blame others and make excuses......real leaders take accountability and come up with a plan to move forward.


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## oldtimer (Mar 24, 2016)

At the risk of piling on- same bs, different day.  He is a lying,  transparent worm.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> At the risk of piling on- same bs, different day.  He is a lying,  transparent worm.


----------



## faQ (Mar 25, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> At the risk of piling on- same bs, different day.  He is a lying,  transparent worm.



No, no , no. I think what we are witnessing is a grinch/ Scrooge -like change of heart.  Q really DOES care about the community. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## halfpintvt (Mar 25, 2016)

Some interesting reading in the "cloud".

DFR Jay Peak EB 5 Correspondence 12 1 14 to 4 12 15 (2) 

accd-on-anc-bio-redacted-78-pages-6may15.pdf


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 25, 2016)

At least they are making the distinction between the two...

http://qburke.com/assets/Uploads/at...rt-will-open-for-Summer-Winter-Operations.pdf

I think Oldtimer nailed it again:


oldtimer said:


> I actually think what you are seeing here w/r/t the hotel is Stenger versus Jr.
> 
> From Stenger's standpoint, his name is all over the EB-5 part of this, and he is a partner in the hotel ownership group. Suppose the ownership group comes up with the $- Bill certainly is saying they are very, very close if they have not already done it. They pay off Peak (with or without the money the state may or may not be holding- most rational players would turn over the CO if the only part missing was the small part that state is fussing over). My guess is that once the CO is turned over, then the operating company owes the $55k/ month to the ownership group. Clearly, that is best for Bill and the hotel owners.
> 
> ...



I think the blood is in the water now, which shark is going to come out on top?


----------



## SLoMo (Mar 25, 2016)

How interesting....trying to save face and keep folks coming in? 

http://qburke.com/assets/Uploads/at...rt-will-open-for-Summer-Winter-Operations.pdf

More interesting....QBurke posted a comment in their reviews section of FB stating they care about "employee retention"-yeah, so much that they laid off 180 of them!


----------



## benski (Mar 25, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> How interesting....trying to save face and keep folks coming in?
> 
> http://qburke.com/assets/Uploads/at...rt-will-open-for-Summer-Winter-Operations.pdf
> 
> More interesting....QBurke posted a comment in their reviews section of FB stating they care about "employee retention"-yeah, so much that they laid off 180 of them!


Doesn't sound like they had much of a choice. 


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## steamboat1 (Mar 25, 2016)

Stupid from the get go. Who the F puts $50mil into a hotel at a place like Burke. Peak bought Hunter hotel & all for considerably less. Hunter even has snowmaking.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> How interesting....trying to save face and keep folks coming in?
> 
> http://qburke.com/assets/Uploads/at...rt-will-open-for-Summer-Winter-Operations.pdf
> 
> More interesting....QBurke posted a comment in their reviews section of FB stating they care about "employee retention"-yeah, so much that they laid off 180 of them!



I think we need a fourth person to issue a different press release stating something completely different. What a clusterfuck. 


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## halfpintvt (Mar 26, 2016)

New Review on Q Burke Facebook Page.
The reviewers name is Michael Sher:

After  > 10 years as a passholder, I did not buy a pass for my family or me  because I wanted to wait until Thanksgiving to see if management would  keep its promises about making snow making.  At our passholders' meeting  last year, they said that Qburke would use equipment from Sochi  Olympics to produce an abundance of resilient snow in the Upper  Mountain.  Don't blame Mother Nature.  Not only did you screw up the  hotel, but you lied, yes lied, to your most important stakeholders  about snow making.   I drove the distance to ski at other VT mountains  and the conditions weren't great, but the snow making efforts were  phenomenal and the skiing was damn good for a winter with virtually no  natural snow.  This season was a big fail for Management and for those  who love Burke and want to see it grow and prosper.  Please bring in the  pros and get your act together.  Start by asking Bill Stenger to set  things straight and if the Quiros family is too proud to tell Jr. that  he's messing up with more than a play thing (Burke is about NEK jobs,  nature, and families at the very least), I will and hereby do.  Please  give us all the facts, not marketing speak, about your plans for the  summer and for improving snow making and management.  Otherwise, I  suggest that passholders boycott purchases until we hear real facts from  real ski professionals about how the mountain is going to turn things  around.  Shame on you!

*Comments*





Q Burke Mountain Resort Mr.  Sher, We do appreciate feedback to better improve our product and  service.  We are saddened to hear that you did not enjoy our conditions  this year.  We are proud to say that our Upper Mountain did and is  currently operating with an abundance of snow.   Unfortunately, it is up to us to decide where on our mountain we blow  snow and maintain snow to keep our visitors happy. This doesn't always  mean we will have every trail and glade available. Rest assured that we  realize we can't make everyone happy all of the time (no matter how hard  we try).  You are correct in saying that 'Burke is about NEK jobs,  nature, and families'.  These are the exact reasons that we all work so  diligently to keep Q Burke Mountain Resort  successful.  Everyone reserves the right to voice their opinion; it is  our hope that your opinion changes as you observe our growth and  contributions to the Northeast Kingdom


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2016)

I was up in Orleans County today, and was able to spend a couple of hours skiing at Jay Peak.  I was really impressed with a couple of things.  First, what a well oiled machine it is from a customer service perspective.  Second, how vibrant the place is with all of the people staying in the hotels.  It was abundantly clear to me that getting the hotel open at Burke will make a HUGE difference.  

So hopefully the hotel situation will get worked out.  I'll be the first to cheer when those doors officially open to the public.


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 26, 2016)

New Article in the Saturday Burlington Free Press:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...l-tension-between-q-burke-and-state/82259008/


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 26, 2016)

VT Digger Article:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/03/26/contractor-filing-lien-on-q-burke-hotel/


----------



## 56fish (Mar 27, 2016)

K
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Absolutely gorgeous this morning!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2016)

Bump.  

Michael Sher, who posted the quoted FB post, has started a new Facebook group for Burke.  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1519820171658214/


----------



## River19 (Mar 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.
> 
> Michael Sher, who posted the quoted FB post, has started a new Facebook group for Burke.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1519820171658214/



Joined......


----------



## oldtimer (Mar 28, 2016)

Was fortunate enough to get to Burke this weekend.  Great spring skiing.  Pond skimming was fun, but not very well attended.  The mountain itself had very little traffic other than pass holders.

I checked in with friends-  to a one, the long time senior staff said that they WILL NOT return next year if Jr. and Mike are anywhere in the same zip code as the mountain.  This is not about the occasional lift attendant.  Do not expect to see any of the department heads, lift maintenance staff, or the heart of the ski patrol.

If Jr. and his sidekick do survive the summer and get the lifts running next fall, expect a whole new level of incompetence w/r/t snow making and operations.  Good people can only take so much.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> VT Digger Article:
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/03/26/contractor-filing-lien-on-q-burke-hotel/



Looks like a change of tone from Davis:



> While there is a dispute over $1.2 million in payments over state approvals, Davis says “I don’t have a contract with the state.” The expenditures for the construction of the hotel, Davis says, have been billed and approved by the architectural designer and the owner and he has the right to move ahead with a lien.



And I guess this sets the record straight about how little Q cares about the local employees:



> In a March 20 letter to employees, the layoff was described as “indefinite in duration and should be considered permanent.”
> 
> Andy Barter, a human resources representative for the resort, wrote: “I do not anticipate this layoff situation changing in the foreseeable future.”
> 
> Quiros said because Q Burke doesn’t offer furlough for workers, they needed to make a “clean cut.”


----------



## MG Skier (Mar 28, 2016)

What a mess! Especially on top of a bad season all around.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> What a mess! Especially on top of a bad season all around.



I think that is what revealed these problems.  Had it been a very good ski season this might be a different story.


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 29, 2016)

There are now 10 liens recorded in the Town Records with a total amount due of $ 6,938,884.45. This includes the Peak CM LLC lien in the amount of $ 5,397,668. I hope Bills trip to South Africa is successful.


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## yeggous (Mar 29, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> There are now 10 liens recorded in the Town Records with a total amount due of $ 6,938,884.45. This includes the Peak CM LLC lien in the amount of $ 5,397,668. I hope Bills trip to South Africa is successful.



How in the world can you be this short on money and still proceed with construction? How is this behavior legal? Authorizing construction when you know you can't pay seems like fraud.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

Just heard that the Lift Operations Manager, a 20-year employee of the mountain, has been laid off.  I have no idea how they think they are going to take care of their lifts. That is a very specialized field that requires expertise and knowledge.  I don't think that Mike's Electric cuts it.


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## the original trailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just heard that the Lift Operations Manager, a 20-year employee of the mountain, has been laid off.  I have no idea how they think they are going to take care of their lifts. That is a very specialized field that requires expertise and knowledge.  I don't think that Mike's Electric cuts it.



Unfortunately, and once again, Q, etc. has me shaking my head. We were waffling on whether to buy passes again but not any more !


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

I agree with Mr. Sher that a full-out boycott is now appropriate.


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## halfpintvt (Mar 29, 2016)

yeggous said:


> How in the world can you be this short on money and still proceed with construction? How is this behavior legal? Authorizing construction when you know you can't pay seems like fraud.



To be fair, a lot of the smaller liens were filed by subs who Peak CM was unable to pay because Peak was owed $$. I would hope that once Peak is paid, that all the subs would be paid too and then all of the liens will be discharged.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 29, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> To be fair, a lot of the smaller liens were filed by subs who Peak CM was unable to pay because Peak was owed $$. I would hope that once Peak is paid, that all the subs would be paid too and then all of the liens will be discharged.



Whether we're talking about $6.9M or $5.4M, my point is still the same. I really don't think it matters at that order of magnitude. It's not like they're just one or two investors short.


----------



## halfpintvt (Mar 29, 2016)




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## MG Skier (Mar 29, 2016)

Boom, there it is! I am guessing it is public record.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


>



Hate to tell Ary but they named the Ski Resort as the party subject to the lien, not the "EB-5 entity".


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## halfpintvt (Mar 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Hate to tell Ary but they named the Ski Resort as the party subject to the lien, not the "EB-5 entity".



The Hotel is owned by "Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center, LP and the principal in Q Burke Mountain Resort and Hotel Conference Center LP is "Q Burke Mountain Resort GP Services, LLC". Burke 2000 LLC owns the land. There are a lot of different entities involved in Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> The Hotel is owned by "Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center, LP and the principal in Q Burke Mountain Resort and Hotel Conference Center LP is "Q Burke Mountain Resort GP Services, LLC". Burke 2000 LLC owns the land. There are a lot of different entities involved in Burke.



There sure are, but "QBurke Mountain Resort, LLC" is listed as the debtor here.


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## River19 (Mar 29, 2016)

FB group sure has taken off


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2016)

River19 said:


> FB group sure has taken off



It sure has!


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## halfpintvt (Mar 29, 2016)

Closed for the season.....?


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## ChicoKat (Mar 29, 2016)

I checked out the new FB group and saw a mention about a rumor regarding the bike park. Anybody hear anything?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2016)

Another LSC News Story:  https://www.facebook.com/news7newslinc/videos/1117414048289479/


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2016)

River19 said:


> FB group sure has taken off



Folks should check this out. In less than four days there are nearly 1,000 folks who have joined, shared concerns, memories, and Burke pics and nostalgia. Very cool. The organizer is going to draft a letter to send to the owners from the group. 


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

A letter to Ary?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2016)

Correction: 1,100.

And an "open letter" to Stenger, Ariel, editorial boards, legislators, etc.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Hope it helps!  Going to take a lot to repair the damage


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Hope it helps!  Going to take a lot to repair the damage



It sure is.  It may not do anything, but honestly there has been more interest and posts on this one group site in four days than on Q's FB page for the entire season.  Folks are passionate about the mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2016)

Over 1,300 now


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2016)

1,800 and counting.....


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> 1,800 and counting.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



My Facebook feed is now overrun with Friends of Burke posts.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> My Facebook feed is now overrun with Friends of Burke posts.



Honestly I love it.  Folks are really proud of their mountain.  The number of stories and cool photos is amazing!


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## Edd (Mar 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Correction: 1,100.
> 
> And an "open letter" to Stenger, Ariel, editorial boards, legislators, etc.
> 
> ...



Can you link to the letter or post the text?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> Can you link to the letter or post the text?



I will when it is posted.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 31, 2016)

Incredible content being posted on the Friends of Burke Facebook page:


> Christopher Lee:
> So here is my views on the Burke Mountain issue. I am from South Carolina. I was born and raised there in a very small town, just barely larger than the Lyndonville/Burke community. As a person from a small town I understand how you guys feel about the management of Burke Mountain and how an outsider has destroyed it. The people in my hometown blocked Lowes and Home Depot form opening because they knew it would kill local privately owned businesses.My story begins back in 2012 when I was a police officer and witnessed several traumatic events in a very short time frame. I had known Ary from a previous deployment to Afghanistan. Ary brought me on to Burke Mountain in order to get away from the stuff I was dealing with and to reset my head. For that I am eternally grateful. The one thing I am more grateful for is how the people of Lyndonville and East Burke treated me. A compete outsider whom they did not know. Everywhere I went someone was always there with a smile and a conversation. This blew my mind because I had always though Northerners were arrogant and stuck up. But the people in the NEK were completely different and very enjoyable to be around. Every morning before work I would drive to the top of the mountain and look across the valley at Willoughby Gap. That was my peaceful place and it was how I was able to overcome my problems.
> As for the management of Burke Mountain. I respect Ary for helping me out when I needed a break. But I completely disagree with how he is running the mountain. One thing that blows my mind with him is that he was an Officer in the Vermont National Guard. On our deployment together we had a lot of the same training on winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. I figured that training would translate over to the business side of him, but I was wrong. I only stayed in Vermont for one season and I moved on with my life and continued my education and career elsewhere. The practice of him alienating the local population has blown my mind. I have heard him express how he does not care. The fact that he has laid off long time employees because ehe cannot run a business and pay his bills says a lot to me about how he does not care about the community.
> 
> I am sad to see Burke Mountain decline to the point it has. I believe at this point the Mountain needs new management and owners. Even though I am an outsider and I live several states away, Burke Mountain and the NEK will always have a place in my heart. I stand behind the people in the Burke community and would love to see someone local invest in the mountain. I think winning the hearts and minds of the locals should be the first step of the mountain in the future.


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## oldtimer (Mar 31, 2016)

That note from the ex-buddy speaks volumes.  I suspect he will not be on Jr's christmas card list next year.  well done by him-


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2016)

When I started reading that I was thinking, "oh boy.  Here we go.  He's going to say how Ary is great," and then it changed.  Honest and frank.  It also confirms my confusion too--someone with that level of training should be able to succeed and yet he can't.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> That note from the ex-buddy speaks volumes.  I suspect he will not be on Jr's christmas card list next year.  well done by him-


I agree. That took some guts to call out Ary's management approach like that.



thetrailboss said:


> When I started reading that I was thinking, "oh boy. Here we go. He's going to say how Ary is great," and then it changed. Honest and frank. It also confirms my confusion too--someone with that level of training should be able to succeed and yet he can't.


I started reading with the same thoughts 

I wonder if his training involved being diagnosed with a severe case of narcissism?


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## oldtimer (Mar 31, 2016)

All successful businesses satisfy 3 basic constituencies:  owner/s  , employees & customers.  When you hold 2 of those 3 constituencies in contempt you are bound to fail.  He thinks he is fighting the war against 2 of the 3.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> All successful businesses satisfy 3 basic constituencies:  owner/s  , employees & customers.  When you hold 2 of those 3 constituencies in contempt you are bound to fail.  He thinks he is fighting the war against 2 of the 3.



What's completely puzzling and really points to just how out to lunch the guy is, is if you look what he posted on his Facebook page today.  The whole friends of Burke thing had me curious what he had to say. Ary posted a Richard Branson quote that is the total opposite of his apparent management philosophy.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 31, 2016)




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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> What's completely puzzling and really points to just how out to lunch the guy is, is if you look what he posted on his Facebook page today.  The whole friends of Burke thing had me curious what he had to say. Ary posted a Richard Branson quote that is the total opposite of his apparent management philosophy.



I have not seen that.


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## Edd (Mar 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> What's completely puzzling and really points to just how out to lunch the guy is, is if you look what he posted on his Facebook page today.  The whole friends of Burke thing had me curious what he had to say. Ary posted a Richard Branson quote that is the total opposite of his apparent management philosophy.



Is it clear that the Branson thing is a response to the Burke group?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> Is it clear that the Branson thing is a response to the Burke group?



I'm not saying it is, but after I gave out 180 permanent pink slips in the past week including to some folks with decades tenure, I probably wouldn't be singing the virtues of working together.

Richard Branson is regarded as one of the best CEOs in the world regarding associate treatment. Ary has basically been the anti-Branson since taking over.  The letter shared by FromtheNEK is real telling in that regard.


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## River19 (Mar 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> When I started reading that I was thinking, "oh boy.  Here we go.  He's going to say how Ary is great," and then it changed.  Honest and frank.  It also confirms my confusion too--someone with that level of training should be able to succeed and yet he can't.



When I saw it posted today I thought the same thing, started reading and was sitting saying to myself "now that dude has integrity and backbone"......I like that.  It is ok to acknowledge that you respect and appreciate what someone did, and then disagree with another unrelated line of decisions by the same person........very strong to post that.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2016)

Any update on whether Davis has been paid?  There was talk of a transfer early this week.


.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2016)

Asshats


http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/02/q-bu...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-d4620de3b0-405558657


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## oldtimer (Apr 2, 2016)

Asshats-  Yes.  But there was good news buried in there.  It is pretty clear that Stenger as raised the remaining $5mil.  He appears to be saying that hey are in the process of getting the state to approve the distribution on the funds.  Having some of the creditors say that the Stenger/Q attorneys have reached out to them and that "it is about done" doesn't happen until the attorneys know they can deliver the funds.

Now, as far as Mike from MEI-  he is a level of scum that has never been seen at Burke before.  Jr brought him in to make Jr look good.





thetrailboss said:


> Asshats
> 
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/02/q-bu...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-d4620de3b0-405558657
> ...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 2, 2016)

Yep, he keeps bringing in "business experts" with zero experience in the ski/resort industry, other than wiring some of the buildings...


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## oldtimer (Apr 2, 2016)

I don't mind the lack of experience.  We are all used to that. No,  he has been nothing but an unpleasant ass since he arrived. Another jerk with the hero complex- "I am smarter than you, I will save this place."  and then proceeds to be rude and unwelcoming.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2016)

The threat to sue was especially classy. He certainly knows how to run a business in the hospitality industry.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2016)

I would say more but I've got to get off the lift soon.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I would say more but I've got to get off the lift soon.View attachment 19877



Yeah, yeah... rub it in some more.  :smile:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yeah, yeah... rub it in some more.  :smile:



:lol:






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## from_the_NEK (Apr 3, 2016)

Did any of you on "Friends of Burke" see the comments about the contract employees handling money had to sign that had a section about agreeing to submit to a lie detector test if necessary. If the employee refused to sign it, they were shown the door.

Just insanity.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 3, 2016)

Like I said... Nothing surprises me anymore with them. Just hang the "For Sale" sign already...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 3, 2016)

I had not seen this before today....


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 3, 2016)

That is a rippin' piece. ANC Bio will be a real nasty business. Trust me, stuff like that requires human trials that have budgets in the 100$s of millions and 10 year time scales, if they work. 

Plus, the people you need have zero, and I mean zero interest in the NEK. Are they going to board their children at acceptable schools? I used to live in rural Vermont (Grand Isle) and the school was a failure factory twenty years ago. Gee, will I go to high school in Milton or Essex Junction? Milton cuz I heard those who tried did not fare well at Essex Junction.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

New VTDigger article about AnC Bio and Q Burke:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/04/newport-biotech-investors-asking-for-refunds-documents-show/

An interesting quote regarding Q Burke:
"The state wants to know why Quiros and Stenger have not shown they are making contributions of their own money in the project as stated in an agreement with investors."


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

When it rains it pours.  There is a Burlington Free Press article in today's paper:
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...rs-say-millions-unaccounted-q-burke/82520068/

The article starts with the following:
"State regulators have frozen the escrow account for the Q Burke Hotel until the developers explain what became of millions of dollars taken out of the project."


----------



## River19 (Apr 4, 2016)

And here is the Digger and State asking the multi-Million Dollar Question:

"In her response dated March 25, Donegan asks Stenger to cite language in the private placement memorandum — the investor agreement — disclosing use of investor funds for pre-opening, marketing and developer fees.



State officials say the “developer proceeds” are funds developers had planned to take out of the project. Moulton and Donegan say the developers should be putting their own money into the project — not taking money out.

The state wants to know why Quiros and Stenger have not shown they are making contributions of their own money in the project as stated in an agreement with investors."

A few interesting things I took away from this article:

- What was the sum of funds transferred from ANC's pool to the "Jay Construction Company" and what exactly they were used for
- Total amount of refunds requested is still unknown.......it only takes 10 to have a $5M problem.......
- Ongoing financial reviews of all these projects......
- "Developer proceeds"......hmmmmmm


----------



## River19 (Apr 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> When it rains it pours.  There is a Burlington Free Press article in today's paper:
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...rs-say-millions-unaccounted-q-burke/82520068/
> 
> The article starts with the following:
> "State regulators have frozen the escrow account for the Q Burke Hotel until the developers explain what became of millions of dollars taken out of the project."



Whoa....is this a new angle we haven't encountered before?  $ was taken out of the Qburke pool without a clear paper trail the state can track?

Hmmmmm......


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> Whoa....is this a new angle we haven't encountered before?  $ was taken out of the Qburke pool without a clear paper trail the state can track?
> 
> Hmmmmm......



I hate to say it, but it looks like BG was right from the onset.  We're steadily moving toward the land of fraud and misappropriation of funds.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I hate to say it, but it looks like BG was right from the onset.  We're steadily moving toward the land of fraud and misappropriation of funds.


Damn, I think your right that BG was right. The situation just looks sooooo bad right now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

> *A DOL rapid response specialist* *suggested that workers apply for fast food service jobs as a way to quickly regain employment.*



Lets see:

*Option 1: *  Work 40 hours per week at Burger King

*Option 2:*   Collect unemployment, relax, & receive more $ than working 40 hours per week at Burger King

But that's about the intelligence of the response I'd expect from a government employee.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Lets see:
> 
> *Option 1: *  Work 40 hours per week at Burger King
> 
> ...



I think you're missing their point. You are allowed to make limited part-time income while collecting unemployment. It's a way to supplement your income until you find a new gig.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *I hate to say it, but it looks like BG was right from the onset.  We're steadily moving toward the land of fraud and misappropriation of funds.*





from_the_NEK said:


> *Damn, I think your right that BG was right. The situation just looks sooooo bad *right now.



And I received more criticism over this issue than for about anything I've ever posted here.    It all seems so simple to people.   We have a bad snake problem, so just dump a bunch of free mongooses all over the place.  Problem solved.

   Hey, where the hell did all these rats come from?


----------



## yeggous (Apr 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I received more criticism over this issue than for about anything I've ever posted here.    It all seems so simple to people.   We have a bad snake problem, so just dump a bunch of free mongooses all over the place.  Problem solved.
> 
> Hey, where the hell did all these rats come from?



You've abstracted the discussion too far. I am lost.


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> That is a rippin' piece. *ANC Bio will be a real nasty business. Trust me, stuff like that requires human trials that have budgets in the 100$s of millions and 10 year time scales, if they work. *
> 
> *Plus, the people you need have zero, and I mean zero interest in the NEK. Are they going to board their children at acceptable schools?* I used to live in rural Vermont (Grand Isle) and the school was a failure factory twenty years ago. Gee, will I go to high school in Milton or Essex Junction? Milton cuz I heard those who tried did not fare well at Essex Junction.



Dont worry, that project is NEVER getting off the ground.   As someone familiar with biotech, the ANC Bio aspect of all this has been, is, and forever will be, the most ridiculous aspect of this entire story, and was a massive "canary in the coalmine" for me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

But my most bold prediction made a few years ago when this was "the most wonderful thing in the world", still has not yet come to pass, which is that this will end with Federal indictments.   

I'm still sticking with that prediction.

Also, at this point I wouldn't even be surprised if organized crime makes a cameo appearance before this saga is over.




EDIT: Added a video that came to mind.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> It all seems so simple to people.   We have a bad snake problem, so just dump a bunch of free mongooses all over the place.



Nobody thought is was a simple as that.  Most of us underestimated the lack of adequate oversight and how easy the whole process could go down the slope of questionable ethics.

I don't think the problem is with the foreign investors concept, but how it was implemented in this case.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

> Bill Stenger, the developer of AnC Bio Vermont,  told state regulators that* investors who bought into the project several  years ago have requested refunds.* In the latest dispute with the  state over disbursement of EB-5 investor funds, *Stenger and his partner,  Ariel Quiros, say they want to issue refunds from money collected from  new investors* in the biotech facility. That money is held in escrow  under an agreement with the state.



Lastly, for those of you who perhaps aren't familiar with how a Ponzi scheme works?  

The bolded above is a very succinct way to describe it in two sentences.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *Nobody thought is was a simple as that.*  Most of us underestimated the lack of adequate oversight and how easy the whole process could go down the slope of questionable ethics.



Many people though it really was as simple as that.



fbrissette said:


> I don't think the problem is with the foreign investors concept, but *how it was implemented in this case.*



Clearly, yes. 

But there were warning signs early on.  Big ones.  Giant red flags waving in the worst Freezer breeze.  But nobody seemed to care, because that water park sure is great, and now we get kids coming from Canada to play hockey, and well..... _some_ jobs have surely been created. Some.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

Likewise, I have endured more abuse over calling out Burke management than for anything else I have posted here. And now there are over 2,700 people that have joined a Facebook group that is doing exactly what I've been doing.  

I still believe that things can get worked out. But I also believe that some people on this forum ought to be looking in the mirror right now. Oddly enough, the most vocal against me had no real affiliation with Burke.  

Don't assume that being critical equates to a lack of care and compassion for the mountain.


----------



## xwhaler (Apr 4, 2016)

http://qburke.com/blog/i-stand-with-the-q/

At least it seems they now recognize there is a big public perception issue


----------



## snoseek (Apr 4, 2016)

Yep, keep that resume polished.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


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## Edd (Apr 4, 2016)

snoseek said:


> Yep, keep that resume polished.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk



Hmmm. It would be hard to blame her.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> http://qburke.com/blog/i-stand-with-the-q/
> 
> At least it seems they now recognize there is a big public perception issue




Quote from the Blog post:


> As for season’s pass sales; we’re in decline.  Particularly because our community has lost faith.  We can accept that.  We will take the anger.  We will take it and turn it into the glue which holds the last 19 of us together.  Why?  Because we know you will be back.  You love the mountain.



So you, Q Jr, and 17 other employees are going to crawl into a bunker with no windows and wait for everyone to come crawling back?


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## Cannonball (Apr 4, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> http://qburke.com/blog/i-stand-with-the-q/
> 
> At least it seems they now recognize there is a big public perception issue



I'm not sure she understands who the underdogs are here.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Quote from the Blog post:
> 
> 
> So you, Q Jr, and 17 other employees are going to crawl into a bunker with no windows and wait for everyone to come crawling back?



I picked up on that too.  It was a REALLY poor blog post.  No recognition at all that change is needed.  

I'm not sure what's she is trying to prove at this point.  Especially when she says that "to some extent" East Burke has been in decline lately.  East Burke is a true success story and is as vibrant as I have ever seen.  She needs to come down from the mountain.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> *I'm not sure she understands who the underdogs are here.*



Well, I imagine it's easier to be so "positive" when you're one of the only people still receiving a paycheck and able to put food on the table for your children.   

But I think a better analogy is that she's betting on the wrong horse.

  She thinks she's betting on an American Pharoah with her loyalty, when in reality she doesn't realize that her horse has incurable joint disease and wont race again.  The hotel will likely one day open, but it wont be run for very long by the “Q” she constantly refers to.


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## Cannonball (Apr 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well, I imagine it's easier to be so "positive" when you're one of the only people still receiving a paycheck and able to put food on the table for your children.
> 
> But I think a better analogy is that she's betting on the wrong horse.
> 
> She thinks she's betting on an American Pharoah with her loyalty, when in reality she doesn't realize that her horse has incurable joint disease and wont race again.  The hotel will likely one day open, but it wont be run for very long by the “Q” she constantly refers to.



What's especially bad about it is that she stands with the "Q" but apparently not with the "Burke".  Kind of says it all.


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## yeggous (Apr 4, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> What's especially bad about it is that she stands with the "Q" but apparently not with the "Burke".  Kind of says it all.



I have to wonder if Q asked her to do this as a condition of continued employment.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> What's especially bad about it is that she stands with the "Q" but apparently not with the "Burke".  Kind of says it all.



Yep. I'm sure she is afraid for her job and is currently towing the line for "Q" to appease him.
So 19 people that follow "Q's" standard are all that he was able to dredge up throughout the entire country (according to her blog piece, Ms. Benedict was actually recruited by "Q")? No local want to work there anymore. 
How the hell does Ary expect to open this mountain ever again? This is all just making me feel sick (or maybe I'm coming down with the strep throat that my daughter is currently home sick from school with).


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

It's reasonable to expect someone on your payroll to be publicly supportive.  I just don't think that her blog post was a good one.  Saying nothing is better than saying things that will just elicit a negative reaction.


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## River19 (Apr 4, 2016)

The fact that the few remaining folks still employed in that "organization" feel it is "Q" vs. the community/patrons says everything we need to know.  The simple existence of a clear division between Q and everyone else is clear evidence the rift with the community.....awe hell, damn near everyone has only gotten wider since he first started to repeatedly step in piles of PR poo......

IMHO the laying off of 180 folks including the folks who have been the heart and soul of the operation has really increased the gap between Q and everyone else.  I don't see a future where there is a bridge that can cross that gap now......I just don't.

As BG has said, the fact that Sr and Stenger's proposed solution to their refund mess happens to be the exact definition of a Ponzi scheme is sadly funny and fitting at the same time.


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## tumbler (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm going with Stockholm Syndrome.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

From the blog post:


> Much of the community would like to know what efforts we will put into the mountain this upcoming 2016/2017 ski season; we have only two things: heart and elbow grease.


How has that been working so far?  I was hoping for, "Bring in management with ski area experience."


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## WWF-VT (Apr 4, 2016)

_"There is a very important point which the community should be aware; Q Burke Mountain Resort LLC and Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center are two separate entities.  The failure to open Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center is not the reflection of the management of the resort or the owners of the hotel. "_

So there are two different and independent entities running this place into the ground?


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## ChicoKat (Apr 4, 2016)

Even in the bizarre world of 'Q-Ville' that type of public communications warrants the same form letter they so callously sent out to 180 employees. 

What are the odds the of bike park operating this season? That would hit the local businesses.


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## epic (Apr 4, 2016)

I won't be surprised if the bike park fails to open this year. If it does not, I don't think it will impact the community. It's already lost momentum, and people will still ride KT with or without the bike park. People love KT, I bought a family pass even though we only ended up riding there once last season. I will buy a family pass again.

If the bike park is failing it is only because of Ary. I have been riding there since day one. Or even before that, when just a few sections of Jester were open. The last few years, it has been a Sunday ritual to bring my daughter up and ride the bike park. The split with KT made us re-evaluate and we cut back and made more trips to Highland and Killington and Bromont because we don't want to patronize the Q. He's also made it harder to spend money there. The customers are still coming but he won't take our money. We used to always eat lunch on the patio of the Tamarack when we rode there. The food got worse and then they just stopped all together. Closing the Tamarack for lunch means we now spend half of what we used to. Good thing there is the food truck! If they open the park this year, will we patronize it? I don't know, not if we can help it, but we will still be riding in East Burke.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

A new VTDigger article:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/04/state-freezes-q-burke-investor-account/#comments


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## epic (Apr 4, 2016)

I wonder how Stenger's EB-5 meetings are going in SA. They know how to use the Googles over there too, don't they?


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## whitemtn27 (Apr 4, 2016)

Oh my God (from the VTDigger article):



> Stenger in the memo says developer proceeds have been “denied to the developer since July” and that this “needed operational capital” was to be used for planning costs associated with the rest of the Q Burke development — the aquatic center, and tennis and mountain bike facilities. As a consequence, planning for the expansion of the resort is “stalled,” he says.



Um, dude, your accounts are frozen due to suspicion that you've been spending the hotel capital for operations.  This is NOT how you want to react.


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## DJAK (Apr 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Saying nothing is better than saying things that will just elicit a negative reaction.



This. 100 times. There is nothing for Q to say right now that is going to help, only enflame. Well, other than a mea culpa or announcing no more Q in the name. 

Ary needs PR counsel desperately, but has shown isn't interested in taking any counsel, so, it continues. Only weirder.


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## ChicoKat (Apr 4, 2016)

epic said:


> I won't be surprised if the bike park fails to open this year. If it does not, I don't think it will impact the community. It's already lost momentum, and people will still ride KT with or without the bike park. People love KT, I bought a family pass even though we only ended up riding there once last season. I will buy a family pass again.
> 
> If the bike park is failing it is only because of Ary. I have been riding there since day one. Or even before that, when just a few sections of Jester were open. The last few years, it has been a Sunday ritual to bring my daughter up and ride the bike park. The split with KT made us re-evaluate and we cut back and made more trips to Highland and Killington and Bromont because we don't want to patronize the Q. He's also made it harder to spend money there. The customers are still coming but he won't take our money. We used to always eat lunch on the patio of the Tamarack when we rode there. The food got worse and then they just stopped all together. Closing the Tamarack for lunch means we now spend half of what we used to. Good thing there is the food truck! If they open the park this year, will we patronize it? I don't know, not if we can help it, but we will still be riding in East Burke.



Pretty much sums up how are usage and spending at the bike park has gone over the last few years. Once I heard of the split with KT and saw the leaked e-mails it was clear this guy was a Q-Bag.  If it opens we will still ride there a couple of times but the lift pass will be the only money they get out of us. We love E.Burke and really liked splitting a day at the park then down on the KT trails. Highland and killington will see more of us.


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## oldtimer (Apr 4, 2016)

If open, Burke mountain biking will be weekends only.  That is, unless Stenger forces their hand to open the hotel for the summer season.  WHO, please tell, is going to provide the startup capital for a hotel at a resort that has closed itself.  Do these clowns have and cash they are willing to part with, or only funds from overseas suckers?

BTW-   why didn't she call him Ary?   after a while the "Q" thing became creepy and impersonal.  If you like and trust the guy, at least use his name?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 4, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> "Q" thing became creepy and impersonal.


I thought that was actually the image Ary was trying for?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

The post definitely backfired judging by the comments.

It totally missed the mark.  How about, "I stand by our loyal customers.  You deserve better and we will refocus to satisfy you."  That would have gone over much better than the us versus them sentiment.


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## epic (Apr 4, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> If open, Burke mountain biking will be weekends only.



It's always been weekends only, and the truth is, that is part of the problem too.


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## tumbler (Apr 4, 2016)

Wow, just wow.  It seems that both the state and Stenger/Q are out of their league here.  First the developer proceeds- this is a standard part of development projects and that money can be used for anything, it's money.  Privately financed projects have this also and banks don't ask where the money is going.  You build projects to make money.  Who knows what the money was earmarked for but clearly they need it.  Second- the clause of putting in personal money into the project as a requirement- if they haven't done it, then they need to.  Maybe some of the developer fee, oh right the state won't release it because they don't understand any of this and, in my mind, making stuff up as they go.  I'm sure the developer fee was approved as part of the original budget proposal to the state.  I'm surprised Stenger/Q are still commenting on this and not lawyered up yet.  But then again that takes money


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2016)

For those that are not on the Burke Mountain Facebook group, the one remaining lift mechanic just gave his notice. He is moving to Vail Mountain resort. So before Ary can complain about him not being qualified I could tell you that this guy got a sweet job at the best resort company in America. And yes at the risk of tooting my own horn I helped him out with the move. Even if it was just encouragement in helping him find a job out here. Fah Q!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

Did the hot shot hotel manager from Florida jump ship?


.


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## tumbler (Apr 4, 2016)

Now I know what lifts i won't be riding.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

Burke is now taking a page from the Magic Mountain playbook and is deleting Facebook comments.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Did the hot shot hotel manager from Florida jump ship?
> 
> 
> .




My reaction to that post: "Hail Hitler"


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

Someone just reported that they were blocked from their Facebook page.  

I saw what they posted and it wasn't that bad at all.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2016)

I am not going to be posting on their page despite my desire to do so. I also noticed that they are bragging about how many "hits" they have on their page. Someone is feeling a little insecure about the number of people following a Facebook page. I wonder why?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> For those that are not on the Burke Mountain Facebook group,* the one remaining lift mechanic just gave his notice. He is moving to Vail Mountain resort.*



This is the equivalent of leaving McDonalds for Per Se.



tumbler said:


> *I know what lifts i won't be riding.*



If you see this on the lift, it's time to worry.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2016)

Does anyone know the legal reason why the financial information (i.e. the most relevant & important "stuff") is the only thing the state is redacting from the public information?

Also....


> *Donegan asks the developers Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros to explain  what happened to the money and how an error in accounting was made.* She  requests evidence of all contributions to the project that the developer  has made to date.
> *That information, however, has not yet been provided six weeks later*



Six weeks!  Microsoft, Pfizer, Apple, etc.. can close their quarters in less time!


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## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does anyone know the legal reason why the financial information (i.e. the most relevant & important "stuff") is the only thing the state is redacting from the public information?



Vermont law has the following exemption from public records:


> Trade secrets, meaning confidential business records or information, including any formulae, plan, pattern, process, tool, mechanism, compound, procedure, production data, or compilation of information which is not patented, which a commercial concern makes efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to keep secret, and which gives its user or owner an opportunity to obtain business advantage over competitors who do not know it or use it, except that the disclosures required by 18 V.S.A. § 4632 are not exempt under this subdivision.


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## KingdomBC (Apr 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am not going to be posting on their page despite my desire to do so. I also noticed that they are bragging about how many "hits" they have on their page. Someone is feeling a little insecure about the number of people following a Facebook page. I wonder why?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



A simple way to add to that insecurity is to unlike their page. After all, you probably liked "Burke Mountain Resort" as a Facebook page.  A swing of a few thousand unlikes along with decreased pass revenue might make an impression. It's not like you're hurting the employment of a friend or relative at this point, right?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2016)

Boy, someone is now getting pretty philosophical about things......


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## farlep99 (Apr 4, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I thought that was actually the image Ary was trying for?



I don't know Ary personally- only what he presents publicly. But it's pretty clear he is the type of guy who has a name for his dick


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## steamboat1 (Apr 4, 2016)

farlep99 said:


> i don't know ary personally- only what he presents publicly. But it's pretty clear he is the type of guy who has a name for his dick


pee wee


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

I've had a chance to let the "I Stand With the Q" piece sink in.  I'm also in front of an actual keyboard now.  Here are some thoughts:

1) Will Q Burke find someone to proof read?  This may seem petty, but when your management skills are under siege it's best to release statements that are free from errors.  (e.g., Q wants to reach "farther than the continental Northeast".  What does that mean?  He wants to reach farther than Baffin Island?  I should hope so!)

2) Ditch "the Q".  It's Ary's right to keep the resort named Q Burke.  It's not fine in a PR piece to use "Q" ad naseum.  You want to personify, not alienate.  It's scary that she doesn't understand this dynamic.  It's also really creepy to me that a male superior would create an environment in which female employees call him "The Q."  It reeks of misogyny.  Even if that's not really the case, it appears as if it may be - which is still quite bad.

3) If I were shopping my resume around, I would not want a blog post showing my unconditional support for arguably the worst hospitality management in the eastern United States.  

4) Denigrating the local communities in the blog post was just boneheaded.  

5) The "we know you will be back" line might as well have read, "Our business plan depends on the fact that you are suckers and fools who can be taken advantage of."

Bottom line: This was about the worst statement that could have been made given current conditions.  The Friends of Burke Facebook page has really taken off, and there is a critical mass developing.  Whereas displeasure with management simmered under the surface, it has now reached a full boil.  The blog post should have said, "We are listening to our customers."  This was a real missed opportunity, and was likely a net setback.  If I was this person's manager I would be having a VERY stern conversation with her right now.

As an aside, a former employee on Facebook stated that in the last couple of years there have been nine general managers at Q Burke.  Is this true?  If it's even half true that is a SERIOUS sign of trouble.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2016)

I agree with most of what you say, except #2 and I loathe the Q name change.

Suggesting Ary somehow put this girl up to calling the place Q as some sort of gesture of misogyny is a stretch allegation.  We don't know that to be true and you probably wouldn't say it appears to be true if the gender of the author was unknown.  Totally baseless and pointless observation for this discussion.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Suggesting Ary somehow put this girl up to calling the place Q as some sort of gesture of misogyny is a stretch allegation.


That is not at all what I suggested.  Go back and read what I wrote.  Misogyny in the work place is usually much more subtle than you are inferring.  

Again, I have no idea if there is any misogyny at Q Burke.  It just gave me the creeps, that's all.  It may not have given you the creeps.  We are all different - and my barometer is obviously not the same as yours.

My only point was that it is a good idea to NOT write blog posts that could possibly give someone the impression that I had - regardless of the accuracy of the perception.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That is not at all what I suggested.  Go back and read what I wrote.  Misogyny in the work place is usually much more subtle than you are inferring.
> 
> Again, I have no idea if there is any misogyny at Q Burke.  It just gave me the creeps, that's all.  It may not have given you the creeps.  We are all different - and my barometer is obviously not the same as yours.
> 
> My only point was that it is a good idea to NOT write blog posts that could possibly give someone the impression that I had - regardless of the accuracy of the perception.



If a male made that blog post, you would have not jumped to that conclusion.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If a male made that blog post, you would have not jumped to that conclusion.



Correct, because it wouldn't have been an indicator of the culture for females.  But a male didn't write that post.

All I am saying is that it didn't sit well with me.  But my radar may be way off.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Correct, because it wouldn't have been an indicator of the culture for females.  But a male didn't write that post..



So, you make gender based judgements?  

I guess my overall point is that there are plenty of things to be critical of regarding Burke and this woman's blog post.  Doing mental gymnastics to find something else like this is completely unnecessary and basically is just piling on for the sake of piling on unless vetted to be true.   It really wasn't worth going there.  It makes me question your character more than Ary or the author.

Otherwise I agree with much of what you said.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> So, you make gender based judgements?



It's not just me. Courts do too. We don't insist that women in the workplace perceive everything exactly the same as men do.  That was last acceptable in the 1950's or thereabouts.

You may find this article enlightening: http://schoolworkhelper.net/sexual-harassment-malefemale-differences-in-perceptions/

But your overall point is well taken.  I did not mean for this issue to be the primary issue.  I was just sharing that it made me uncomfortable.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> So, you make gender based judgements?
> 
> I guess my overall point is that there are plenty of things to be critical of regarding Burke and this woman's blog post.  Doing mental gymnastics to find something else like this is completely unnecessary and basically is just piling on for the sake of piling on unless vetted to be true.   It really wasn't worth going there.  It makes me question your character more than Ary or the author.
> 
> Otherwise I agree with much of what you said.



This whole thread is piling on an already massive pile up. 

While I would do things differently than Q, just like many others here, I think a lot of folks are delusional to think Burke is going to magically become a major player in the Northeast as long as Q gets out of the way. It will never even be Jay Peak, which despite all the EB-5 money is an also ran compared to Killington, Mt. Snow, Okemo, et al in terms of skier visits and revenue. 

The misogny comment by Dead is spot on, there is a whole lot of hate in this thread and its leading people to places that are just figments of their imaginations. 

The mountain has never been successful, going back decades of failed ownership groups. At best, its a quirky ski area with faults that give it character. Those faults are still faults. 

I find very few ski areas have ownership groups that are loved. Hell, even out here in Jackson, where we have probably the best ownership in all of skiing, people still bitch. Last year it was the new Teton lift ruining the crags, this year they put a gaper ramp down Corbetts (true story and actually kinda bs) but you get the point. 

I find it interesting how the ski industry seems to have an above average amount of armchair QBing. I certainly don't get this much flack for my knife company. 

Q sounds like a shitty manager, but shitty managers a dime a dozen. Burke wasn't minting gold before, and I took some heat for this before as well, but I don't think all this local talent Q has pissed off were really all that competent to begin with. If they were, it wouldn't still be "failing". 

Kind of one big metaphor for Vermont.


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## snoseek (Apr 5, 2016)

Wait....gaper ramp down corbetts? What is this about?

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

I don't think anyone thinks Burke will be a "Major player in the northeast". But it should be able to make it to a sustainable level.

That was the goal of the current ownership, but the guy running things has done pretty much the opposite of what needed was to be done to achieve that goal. 
I agree that every resort has regulars that complain about the way things are being done. I think that is a necessary occurrence that keeps ownership from being complacent. 
However, what is happening at Burke under the "Q" is FAAAAAARRRRRRRR from just the day to day "I would do this instead" or "I can't believe they installed a lift here instead of over there" type of problems. Burke has been pretty much systematically destroyed to the point where I'm seriously questioning if it will even open next year. If it does, it will be nearly a complete ghost town with staff that has no idea how to keep the place physically functioning.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

snoseek said:


> Wait....gaper ramp down corbetts? What is this about?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk



Well we are closed now but ski patrol was cutting a ramp down through the lip at the top of Corbetts all season. Its like a disney ride now. 



from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think anyone thinks Burke will be a "Major player in the northeast". But it should be able to make it to a sustainable level.
> 
> That was the goal of the current ownership, but the guy running things has done pretty much the opposite of what needed was to be done to achieve that goal.
> I agree that every resort has regulars that complain about the way things are being done. I think that is a necessary occurrence that keeps ownership from being complacent.
> However, what is happening at Burke under the "Q" is FAAAAAARRRRRRRR from just the day to day "I would do this instead" or "I can't believe they installed a lift here instead of over there" type of problems. Burke has been pretty much systematically destroyed to the point where I'm seriously questioning if it will even open next year. If it does, it will be nearly a complete ghost town with staff that has no idea how to keep the place physically functioning.



Ok major player in the Northeast was probably the wrong description, but outside of the hotel debacle, a lot of these problems sound like employees actually getting a manager who demands things from them, and they in turn not taking it well. Again, Q sounds like a shitty manager, but to bring up my metaphor for Vermont again, it sounds like a whole lot of employees would rather sit on their asses than actually collect a paycheck if it means actual work is involved. There aren't that many jobs up there for people to just quit out of protest. 

I'm not saying everyone is useless, but come on, Burke was failing long before Q became involved. Shitty management exists everywhere, I'm sure everyone has dealt with it, and I doubt our solution to the problem was "I quit". (that lift mechanic getting a gig at Vail could easily just be he got a way better job offering by the way, which it is and if your career is being a lift mechanic, you would be stupid not to take that job). 

So yeah, I don't think everyone is clamoring for it to become Okemo, but Burke has a lot of challenges outside of Q himself, the workforce sounds like one of them. 

That doesn't even start down the list of lackluster snowfall, farther from major metropolitan areas than pretty much every other ski resort in the Northeast, the list goes on.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

One of the frustrations is that just up the road you have a mountain that is run incredibly well - Jay Peak.  Since Ary Sr. is involved with both, it feels as if Q Burke has been left out to pasture.  

I have no idea what year-to-year skier visits were like at Jay Peak compared to Q Burke, but I can tell you that based on the time that I spent at Jay Peak this winter, it felt MUCH more "business as usual" whereas Q Burke showed a significant drop in skier visits.  So it can't just be explained away by the weather.  

I've said it once, and I will say it again.  Q Burke needs to get that hotel open.  I hope that the parties get things sorted out sooner than later.  We've come way too far to have that building sit idle.  For all of the justified negativity, getting that hotel open will be the biggest thing that has happened to Burke in a very long time.  It would be nice to see a major step forward, rather than just steps taken back.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

Yep blame the "lazy employees"

Now your just trolling us.

Quote from a now former employee's describing her typical day...



> my department was so understaffed that I was cooking breakfast sandwiches at 7am, waiting tables during the day, running cashier, and bartending and closing the Tam at night...



The Tamarack stopped serving around 9:00 and if she was closing that meant she was likely there until after 10:00PM. Yep, she was lazy :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Ok major player in the Northeast was probably the wrong description, but outside of the hotel debacle, a lot of these problems sound like employees actually getting a manager who demands things from them, and they in turn not taking it well. Again, Q sounds like a shitty manager, but to bring up my metaphor for Vermont again, it sounds like a whole lot of employees would rather sit on their asses than actually collect a paycheck if it means actual work is involved. There aren't that many jobs up there for people to just quit out of protest.
> 
> I'm not saying everyone is useless, but come on, Burke was failing long before Q became involved. Shitty management exists everywhere, I'm sure everyone has dealt with it, and I doubt our solution to the problem was "I quit". (that lift mechanic getting a gig at Vail could easily just be he got a way better job offering by the way, which it is and if your career is being a lift mechanic, you would be stupid not to take that job). .


Blaming Burke's problems on its employees is WAAAAY off the mark.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> This whole thread is piling on an already massive pile up.



I like you AR, but if this is what you think, then why bother?  I don't think you have any connection to Burke at all let alone any real understanding. 



> While I would do things differently than Q, just like many others here, I think a lot of folks are delusional to think Burke is going to magically become a major player in the Northeast as long as Q gets out of the way. It will never even be Jay Peak, which despite all the EB-5 money is an also ran compared to Killington, Mt. Snow, Okemo, et al in terms of skier visits and revenue.



That's not what folks are saying.  At least not the comments I've seen.  They are at 75k.  They need to get to about 125-150k ideally.  



> The misogny comment by Dead is spot on, there is a whole lot of hate in this thread and its leading people to places that are just figments of their imaginations.



Honestly if you disagree with a poster than PM that poster.  



> The mountain has never been successful, going back decades of failed ownership groups. At best, its a quirky ski area with faults that give it character. Those faults are still faults.



Not sure I agree with this comment.  There is nothing inherently bad about the mountain itself.  The ownership groups have lacked one thing or another.  



> I find very few ski areas have ownership groups that are loved. Hell, even out here in Jackson, where we have probably the best ownership in all of skiing, people still bitch. Last year it was the new Teton lift ruining the crags, this year they put a gaper ramp down Corbetts (true story and actually kinda bs) but you get the point.



I understand your point, but calling Kemmerer, a millionaire if not billionaire that owns one ski area, as the "best ownership in all of skiing" is a bit of a stretch.  You need to give credit to lots of other folks who have been in the ski biz a long time and have done very well.  Some that own multiple areas.  Are they all loved?  No.  But are they successful?  Yes.  You also really do not understand just what has happened with Burke and Q.  Ary is downright hostile to his customers and locals.  That is eons away from the successful business folks to which you refer.  



> Q sounds like a shitty manager, but shitty managers a dime a dozen. Burke wasn't minting gold before, and I took some heat for this before as well, but I don't think all this local talent Q has pissed off were really all that competent to begin with. If they were, it wouldn't still be "failing".
> 
> Kind of one big metaphor for Vermont.



Wow.  Again, you really don't get it.  It's too bad that J-Hole is closed because, with all due respect, I think you need to find something to do and focus on things you know rather than coming in and railing on a mountain that you don't get.  I get the comment about VTK's post, but take it up with him.

I get your schtick and it is entertaining, but I just think you missed the mark here.


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## oldtimer (Apr 5, 2016)

A-R:
Your point is well taken.  BUT as was said above, this not the regular bitching.  Nor is it lazy employees finally having a real boss.  

This has been arguably the worst case of employee management I have ever seen. And even if it was bad apples, his treatment of his customers is no better.  I attended the last season pass holders' meeting.  He and GM number 9 stood before us and flat out lied about the hotel funds.  Ary pounded his hands on the table and laughed at us for inquiring as to why the owners had not ponied up the funds to pay off the GC and open the hotel.  He was emphatic that it would be ILLEGAL for the US based developers to put cash into the development.  When pushed on the subject he told us we didn't know what we were talking about.  As it turns out, the crux of the current state investigation is why the development team has not made the investment they are OBLIGATED to make.  The man is a lier.  I suspect that the family has taken a fair cut of the EB-5 funds as management fees.  Alas, the chickens may be coming to roost w/r/t the way the developers have acted.  This means Ary JR-  he is not a good business man.  He is not a good boss.  This is not "the locals" bitching.  He is either incredibly stupid, or devious.  maybe both.




AdironRider said:


> Well we are closed now but ski patrol was cutting a ramp down through the lip at the top of Corbetts all season. Its like a disney ride now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yep blame the "lazy employees"
> 
> Now your just trolling us.
> 
> ...



I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument. 



thetrailboss said:


> I like you AR, but if this is what you think, then why bother?  I don't think you have any connection to Burke at all let alone any real understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In reread I realize I am coming off as pretty much blaming the victims and backing up Q, which is not how I feel. He's a terrible manager, no way around it. 

But I do feel that my point still stands that Burke wasn't being successful prior. You can keep blaming ownership for this, or that, but eventually one needs to look in the mirror. 

Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats. That or they can wait for Q to do it, or slow play for a new ownership group, but that hasn't worked for them yet. Otherwise the status quo shall remain. 

I think the locals have proven they can do this with the MTB network they built from the ground up. Only problem is MTB doesn't really bring the economic return (or potential) that a successful ski resort can. MTB's skew young and cheap overall. Why can't they do this for Burke? 

That was my point. The situation sucks, so the best course of action is to work around challenges and make it better.


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## snoseek (Apr 5, 2016)

^^^maybe not the money skiing brings in but i think you may be underestimating the money mtb brings in. Things are bumping during mtb season in the area.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


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## oldtimer (Apr 5, 2016)

AR--
The locals have bucked up for several years.  See my post #6986   -- We have had enough.  He has had staff be INCREDIBLY loyal after being treated like shit.  He has ruined peoples' lives.  He has lied to each and all of us.  At some point, enough is enough and that is what the Sher facebook page is about and what this thread has turned it.  I wish I could share 1/2 of what the now unemployed senior staff has told me in confidence.  He is not good people,and the fish rots from the head.





AdironRider said:


> I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> One of the frustrations is that just up the road you have a mountain that is run incredibly well - Jay Peak.  Since Ary Sr. is involved with both, it feels as if Q Burke has been left out to pasture.
> 
> I have no idea what year-to-year skier visits were like at Jay Peak compared to Q Burke, but I can tell you that based on the time that I spent at Jay Peak this winter, it felt MUCH more "business as usual" whereas Q Burke showed a significant drop in skier visits.  So it can't just be explained away by the weather.
> 
> I've said it once, and I will say it again.  Q Burke needs to get that hotel open.  I hope that the parties get things sorted out sooner than later.  We've come way too far to have that building sit idle.  For all of the justified negativity, getting that hotel open will be the biggest thing that has happened to Burke in a very long time.  It would be nice to see a major step forward, rather than just steps taken back.



My understanding is that Ary, Sr. is NOT very active in Jay.  That is Bill's show.  Ariel is the money.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> I would argue she isn't lazy, far from it. But her being the only one there isn't exclusively Q's fault either is my argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agreed with your view....in 2013.  Things are WAY beyond "buck up and make it work" now.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm breaking my "one reply" to AdironRider here just to post a rebuttal to this.



> Basically I think despite having the worst management in the world, locals need to buck the hell up and make Burke better, because in turn that rising tide will lift all boats.



This right here shows that you have no idea about this situation so you should probably stop making baseless accusations/assumptions about the locals and employees unless it is to ask questions to better understand what is going on.

 The locals HAVE BEEN TRYING OUR BEST to work with "Q". However, he refuses to do so. Any criticism, even those brought in good faith and diplomatically, of his decisions just makes him double down and push his agenda that much harder. That is just it, Ary Jr will not work with the locals. Our hands are tied. At this point, the last thing we can do is boycott the place. Trust me when I say that no one really wants to resort to such a tactic but it is pretty much the only path left.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> * ski patrol was cutting a ramp down through the lip at the top of Corbetts all season.* Its like a disney ride now.



That's the worst thing I've heard this season, it's the most iconic ski run in North America.  What's the logic -  Decrease injuries from people who have no business being in there?  Selling more _"I skied __Corbet's Couloir"_ tee-shirts?


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## benski (Apr 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's the worst thing I've heard this season, it's the most iconic ski run in North America.  What's the logic -  Decrease injuries from people who have no business being in there?  Selling more _"I skied __Corbet's Couloir"_ tee-shirts?



It sounds like an april fools joke.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I agreed with your view....in 2013.  Things are WAY beyond "buck up and make it work" now.





from_the_NEK said:


> I'm breaking my "one reply" to AdironRider here just to post a rebuttal to this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So blow the whole joint up and any remaining marketability, after multiple failed ownership groups, and hope for the best. 

Look I do not envy the situation one bit, but this isn't going to be good for the mountain long term. 

Long hours, asshole management, lack of listening and compromise. All shitty aspects of the work environment and ownership. But the paychecks still cash, and as far as I know he isn't breaking labor laws (please correct me if Im wrong but I would think even the oddball news ops up there would be all over it). 

Destroying a large economic engine in an area already struggling economically is never a good thing. I may not be from there, but I disagree that it is the right move.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's the worst thing I've heard this season, it's the most iconic ski run in North America.  What's the logic -  Decrease injuries from people who have no business being in there?  Selling more _"I skied __Corbet's Couloir"_ tee-shirts?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> I may not be from there, but I disagree that it is the right move.



So please, enlighten us oh wise Rider of Adirondack origin.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

Well just quitting isn't helping. 

The best ski areas aren't celebrated for their ownership (a point I alluded to with my Jackson comments), they are celebrated more often than not for the community that surrounds the place and loves it, warts and all. 

Ary sounds like a genital wart, but just quitting on your local ski hill? I couldn't do it.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> So blow the whole joint up and any remaining marketability, after multiple failed ownership groups, and hope for the best.
> 
> Look I do not envy the situation one bit, but this isn't going to be good for the mountain long term.
> 
> ...



Things are in the works to try to influence the direction of the mountain.


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## fbrissette (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> My understanding is that Ary, Sr. is NOT very active in Jay.  That is Bill's show.  Ariel is the money.



That is 100% correct.


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## oldtimer (Apr 5, 2016)

double post


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## fbrissette (Apr 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's the worst thing I've heard this season, it's the most iconic ski run in North America.  What's the logic -  Decrease injuries from people who have no business being in there?  Selling more _"I skied __Corbet's Couloir"_ tee-shirts?



Agreed.  This is plain dumb.  Check out this video.   It shows the ramp.   With the ramp, it is a 4-6 foot drop with a fast right turn.

http://www.tetongravity.com/video/ski/9-year-old-skis-corbets-couloir-like-a-champ
check at 1:30.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Things are in the works to try to influence the direction of the mountain.



Things are in the works. However, I know a lot of people (locals and non-locals) who are not going to frequent "Q"Burke until significant change to the operation is applied.


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## oldtimer (Apr 5, 2016)

AR-
The head of ski patrol, all of the senior lift staff and maintenance staff have said quite publicly that they will not work at Burke next winter if JR is anywhere within 25 zip codes.  What exactly do you think the mountain will be like next winter if JR can find all rookie folks to spin the lifts?  These operations do not run themselves.  Right now there is no economic engine.  He has spent 3 years telling his staff they are useless and only he knows how to run a business.  He has shitcanned everyone.  He was supposed to deliver one thing- a hotel.  He failed there.   He is lying about how much staff he actually had on at the hotel all winter and the hours they were given-  it was crickets there except for the one day of the bridal show.  So, what exactly am I supporting if I buy a season pass?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Things are in the works. However, I know a lot of people (locals and non-locals) who are not going to frequent "Q"Burke until significant change to the operation is applied.



That is exactly right and part of the message that will be relayed.


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## Cannonball (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That is exactly right and part of the message that will be relayed.



But who is the message going to be relayed to?  Someone who can actualy a difference (who would that be??)? Or just to the same people who haven't listened to it so far?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> But who is the message going to be relayed to?  Someone who can actualy a difference (who would that be??)? Or just to the same people who haven't listened to it so far?



I had hopes for the Burke folks a year ago when Stenger stepped in and it was communicated that Ary was stepping aside.  

That hasn't happened.  

There was also a very brief time when Steve from Jay Peak was announced as GM.

Now who knows.  It seems like a game of chicken between Ary and the locals as to who will flinch first. 

I think Ary thinks that he can "fire" his way out of the situation; both employees and customers.  That eventually he will have a staff that agrees with him and a new customer base to replace disgruntled former customer.  That last train of thought works in large metros, but not at a place like Burke that is so remote.

I do think the locals are doing the right thing and voting with their wallets.  Even without Ary there, that's probably a wise choice given what looks like a pretty bad legal situation the mountain maybe facing.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

I think that Ary will love it if people defer their season pass buying until after the price increase.  I don't think that the customers will win this showdown.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

If Cannon was smart they would offer a special 2016/2017 rate to pass holders at other mountains.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that Ary will love it if people defer their season pass buying until after the price increase.  I don't think that the customers will win this showdown.



I really don't think that will pay off for him either. I'd be willing to bet that those not willing to early buy, are already looking into skiing elsewhere next year.


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## whitemtn27 (Apr 5, 2016)

tumbler said:


> First the developer proceeds- this is a standard part of development projects and that money can be used for anything, it's money.  Privately financed projects have this also and banks don't ask where the money is going.  You build projects to make money.  Who knows what the money was earmarked for but clearly they need it.



This is true, but if you are paying yourself developer proceeds out of EB-5 capital, do you need to spend it on something related to the EB-5 project entity?  I don't know, and it seems like the state doesn't either.  My point is not that this is necessarily illegal or inappropriate in general, but that it's a terrible reaction to have in this case.

There's 3 things here that look really bad:

-- They have been saying for months that the hotel developer isn't getting paid because the state won't release the funds.  The state, however, says that regardless they are not withholding enough funds to cover the outstanding balance.  Someone is lying or can't do math.  If the hotel was 'fully funded', where'd that money go?

-- The developer contributions' to the project are also 'missing', either because they didn't make them or have a terrible accountant.  Given they already tried to pay for hotel furniture with EB-5 money, I'm guessing 'didn't make them'.  How many years do you amortize sheets and pillows over, anyway?

-- They have publicly stated they want to pay refunds to AnC Bio investors out of funds that are newly being collected.  EB-5 investors can and do request refunds, for example if their immigration application is refused they get their money back.  It is not uncommon for projects to hold EB-5 money in escrow for exactly this reason (unlike the state requiring it, which is happening here).  So the most *charitable* interpretation is they didn't plan for anyone to ask for a refund before they started spending.

And the reaction is to complain about how they aren't getting paid their developer proceeds so they can, uh, go hire an architect for the aquatics center or some fool thing?  My point is, you're in a hole, stop digging...


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> But who is the message going to be relayed to?  Someone who can actualy a difference (who would that be??)? Or just to the same people who haven't listened to it so far?



That is the reservation I have about the "things in the works". Local community leaders and legislators already know what a shit show Ary has produced at "Q"Burke employment-wise. But realistically they are powerless to do anything about it. Bringing state/national level legislators (Governor, US Senators, and Congressman) up to speed on the situation probably won't have much effect either. "Q"Burke is a private business. Legislators can wag their fingers at Ary but they really can't do anything either. 

So it is probably going to boil down to approaching the "Q" and laying out the cards. Either Ary Jr goes and a mountain manager with some semblance of competence is brought in and allowed to mend fences and get the place back on its feet OR a large contingent of pass holders walk out the door and let nature take its course and the "Q" fails completely.


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## the original trailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is the reservation I have about the "things in the works". Local community leaders and legislators already know what a shit show Ary has produced at "Q"Burke employment-wise. But realistically they are powerless to do anything about it. Bringing state/national level legislators (Governor, US Senators, and Congressman) up to speed on the situation probably won't have much effect either. "Q"Burke is a private business. Legislators can wag their fingers at Ary but they really can't do anything either.
> 
> So it is probably going to boil down to approaching the "Q" and laying out the cards. Either Ary Jr goes and a mountain manager with some semblance of competence is brought in and allowed to mend fences and get the place back on its feet OR a large contingent of pass holders walk out the door and let nature take its course and the "Q" fails completely.




As I have said in earlier posts I am voting with my wallet and will boycott any and all Q events - Maybe an empty mountain and hotel and no $$ coming in will get somebody's attention. Anything less than that will result in pushback (again, and more ) only.


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## burski (Apr 5, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is the reservation I have about the "things in the works". Local community leaders and legislators already know what a shit show Ary has produced at "Q"Burke employment-wise. But realistically they are powerless to do anything about it. Bringing state/national level legislators (Governor, US Senators, and Congressman) up to speed on the situation probably won't have much effect either. "Q"Burke is a private business. Legislators can wag their fingers at Ary but they really can't do anything either.
> 
> So it is probably going to boil down to approaching the "Q" and laying out the cards. Either Ary Jr goes and a mountain manager with some semblance of competence is brought in and allowed to mend fences and get the place back on its feet OR a large contingent of pass holders walk out the door and let nature take its course and the "Q" fails completely.




As long as this management team is involved, there is no working with them. "Getting a GM" has already proven to be unfeasible, they micromanage and stay involved so in the end the only thing that changes is another GM is out of a job...


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2016)

You people are all way overthinking this.   Clan 'Q' isn't going to be running things for too much longer.   When this goes south (and it will), it's going to go south in a hurry (it always does).


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## yeggous (Apr 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> You people are all way overthinking this.   Clan 'Q' isn't going to be running things for too much longer.   When this goes south (and it will), it's going to go south in a hurry (it always does).



Yes, this is the truth. And the mountain will likely sit closed for a season as a result as the legal log jam clears. I doubt it sits idle any longer than that as a mountain with two detachable lifts and a new hotel must have some value.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2016)

whitemtn27 said:


> *  How many years do you amortize sheets and pillows over, anyway?*



From my experience following this situation the last few years, my guess is Quiros buys sheets & pillows in Chinatown for $6.75, publicly tells people it's $675 Egyptian Cotton with 1000 thread count, and then capitalizes them as assets on the balance sheet.


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## fbrissette (Apr 5, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Yes, this is the truth. And the mountain will likely sit closed for a season as a result as the legal log jam clears. I doubt it sits idle any longer than that as a mountain with two detachable lifts and a new hotel must have some value.



The hotel belongs to the EB5 corporation.  They are going to want their money back.   The mountain and lifts will be for sale but the hotel ?   This is going to get messy.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This is going to get messy.



Analogy of the day:
The bag of poo has been on the doorstep for a while now. It has just been lit on fire. The doorbell is about to be rung. Then it gets really messy trying to stomp it out.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm definitely looking at some indicators to see what is really going to happen.

For example, when will they advertise for mountain bike trail crew?  When will they advertise for summer lift attendants?  I've yet to see any of these positions posted.  It may still be early, but if they are going to open they are going to have to do some hiring sooner than later.


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## mbedle (Apr 5, 2016)

So, we are all hoping that the owners are going to listen to the locals and fire a family member under their pressure? What if they truly don't really care what the locals think and are looking to only market to the general public (make it into a destination resort, like most other areas in Vermont). Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this place been in bankruptcy/or for sale many times in the past? I am guessing that the owners realize that with such a small population in the NEK, that business model does not work anymore and that may explain the reason for the hotels/water park/biking/tennis/swimming pools/convention centers being built at Jay and Burke. If, and when they do get the hotel/convention center open, the revenue from those sources may far outweigh the revenue generated by the locals. 

One bad scenario is they try to sell off the resort and hold onto only the hotel! That would put a damper on things getting done around the resort, basically cutting of a source of income they were depending on. Or worst yet, they close the resort, put the resort and hotel up for sale and no one touches it with a ten foot pole for ten plus years.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

mbedle said:


> So, we are all hoping that the owners are going to listen to the locals and fire a family member under their pressure? What if they truly don't really care what the locals think and are looking to only market to the general public (make it into a destination resort, like most other areas in Vermont). Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this place been in bankruptcy/or for sale many times in the past? I am guessing that the owners realize that with such a small population in the NEK, that business model does not work anymore and that may explain the reason for the hotels/water park/biking/tennis/swimming pools/convention centers being built at Jay and Burke. If, and when they do get the hotel/convention center open, the revenue from those sources may far outweigh the revenue generated by the locals.
> 
> One bad scenario is they try to sell off the resort and hold onto only the hotel! That would put a damper on things getting done around the resort, basically cutting of a source of income they were depending on. Or worst yet, they close the resort, put the resort and hotel up for sale and no one touches it with a ten foot pole for ten plus years.



With all due respect, I'm going to say what I said this morning to another poster, and that is that you don't seem really understand Burke and what is going on.  

First, I think your "entitlement" comment was not meant to come off as douchey as it sounds.  I think your point is that locals cannot take the mountain for granted.  Nobody does.  In 2000 it was the community who saved the mountain by volunteering, buying passes, etc.  The mountain is a part of the community and always has been a part of it.  Those 70k annual skiers and riders?  Mostly locals.  

That leads me to my second point and that is a "general marketing pitch" simply does not work.  I don't think there is any dispute that either Ary or "someone" has decided to ignore the local market and go after this pot of gold that lies under the rainbow.  Guess what?  The ski industry is flat.  There are already a lot of resorts competing for a flat number of guests.  A lot are WAY ahead of Burke.  It is a zero sum game and if they think that they are going to somehow "grab" these elusive guests then another resort is going to lose.  Competition is just too tight.

They want to get to 150k skier days.  In such a flat market you can't just burn the 70k that you've got and assume that 150k other folks will show up.  And it is easier to get to 150k starting at 70k.  I can honestly say that most of the resorts in Vermont of which I am aware (and a lot here in Utah) realize that their market is BOTH local and overnight/distant guests.  They offer products for both.  With the exception now of maybe Stowe most places rely on locals for some of their business.  Hell, even Deer Valley markets a discount 5 and 10-day ticket package for locals.  It is not at all realistic to chase after these mysterious and elusive "other" guests because they don't really exist right now.

Was Burke perfect before?  No.  Was it getting close?  Yes.  In 2012 when they sold to Q, they had 2 HSQ's, a decent snowmaking system that could run 70 guns at a time, a small but loyal market with goodwill built up resulting in 70k skier days and some number of summer bike days, and a good management team.  Now we have poor or zero maintenance, a pissed off customer base, less skier days, less snowmaking capacity, zero goodwill, and incompetent management.  I think there is reason to be concerned and to tell the ownership that things need to change or else they can expect far fewer ski days with or without the Hotel.  

And let's be honest--they can't just run the Hotel without the resort and vice versa now.  They both rely on each other.

Sorry if I am being frank, but I think that the ideas were a bit off here.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> But who is the message going to be relayed to?  Someone who can actualy a difference (who would that be??)? Or just to the same people who haven't listened to it so far?



I am not at liberty to say what is being considered, unfortunately.  Not at this time.


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## Cannonball (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am not at liberty to say what is being considered, unfortunately.  Not at this time.



Intriguing!


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

Entitlement is a strong word, but how many times are locals going to decide they know better than ownership? They have already proven to not be a sustainable market several times over. 

If Q goes how long until another Ginn, or Schaefers, or Graham is decided to "just not understand how to run Burke". That seems to be a constant mindset in this little area of Vermont.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Entitlement is a strong word, but how many times are locals going to decide they know better than ownership? They have already proven to not be a sustainable market several times over.
> 
> If Q goes how long until another Ginn, or Schaefers, or Graham is decided to "just not understand how to run Burke". That seems to be a constant mindset in this little area of Vermont.



:roll:

Let's go through this.  

Ginn: the market crash meant he lost his line of credit and financing.  

Schaefers:  had no intent on running it and was using it to launder money.

Graham (I assume you mean 2000-2005 when he was the angel investor):  he brought in Ginn and Lubert Adler to run the place.  

Explain to me how the locals are to blame for this?


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## mbedle (Apr 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> With all due respect, I'm going to say what I said this morning to another poster, and that is that you don't seem really understand Burke and what is going on.
> 
> First, I think your "entitlement" comment was not meant to come off as douchey as it sounds.  I think your point is that locals cannot take the mountain for granted.  Nobody does.  In 2000 it was the community who saved the mountain by volunteering, buying passes, etc.  The mountain is a part of the community and always has been a part of it.  Those 70k annual skiers and riders?  Mostly locals.
> 
> ...



No reason to say you are sorry. I don't get upset by to much these days and I was by no means trying to be a douche. I've said this before with Oldtimer and understand that I am not a local , nor do I ski at Q Burke, nor understand the passion that some of you have for this place. As before, I always try to provide some outside point of view, whether that is off base or not. What I meant by entitlement is that if a private business decides to not cater to a certain group of people like they did in the past, most people move on to a new business. They take their business/money elsewhere. But in this scenario, because of the history of the resort and the efforts locals have put forth to keeping this place operating, people feel that they have a right to the mountain, is amenities and a say in how it is operated. Unfortunately, it is a private business, with the lower part of the mountain located on private land. And what ever past effort where expelled, were for some other owner. That is kind of what I meant by entitlement. Who knows, maybe the owners will cave and remove Ary from his position at the resort. I'm not 100% sure what that will do to improve conditions at the resort, as I would guess that his decisions/actions are not just coming from him or the constraints on his budget are specific to Ary. Just a guess....

As far as your other comment, you may be correct. I didn't mean to say that they are trying to alienate ever local, which I am sure they haven't done. Lets be honest, if you live in or around this town, are you really going to give up on skiing there or drive 2 hours to some other place? I guess that if they can't produce the product that most of you want, that would be yes. If you are a local that doesn't really care what the product is, than no. It also still doesn't change my perception of what they are trying to accomplish. Which is to turn Q Burke into a Jay Peak, that is less dependent on locals for support. Yes, numbers are flat, but that doesn't stop other resort from trying to expand hotel and lodging, to increase skier visit. If you where correct, than why are resorts building new rental units or hotels, or even expanding their resorts? Under your scenario, no resort with a solid business model would do any expansion. That is obviously not the case. 

And as far as Stowe, I wouldn't discount the amount of locals that ski there and support the place. Most people I talk to mid-week are locals. 

And you are right, the both have to be sold to go together, but stranger things have happened in the past. Look at Ascutney and the Holiday Inn at the base. Mountain closed and Holiday in wasn't. Although they did operate together for some time.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> Intriguing!



And honestly it may not work.  But people don't want to complain and instead want to try to take action.


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## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

By not being a sustainable market, first and foremost. Hell, at least the Magic guys will move hell or high water to keep their place afloat, at a volunteer payscale. At Burke just an employee working overtime is a non-starter.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> By not being a sustainable market, first and foremost. Hell, at least the Magic guys will move hell or high water to keep their place afloat, at a volunteer payscale. At Burke just an employee working overtime is a non-starter.



I've demonstrated that the unsustainable market argument you made is not the case.  

As to the statement made about the employees, that is baseless and pretty demeaning.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 5, 2016)

Then what is the case, because I have yet to hear anything that couldn't also be construed as an "I know better than this asshole" mentality from former and current employee complaints. Please illustrate some actual travesties. Since I've piped up I've only heard of an employee being lied to and an F&b employee having to wear a couple different hats. The former has zero backstory, and the latter is par for the course for any food and beverage employee worth their salt. 

All I have been saying is that waiting and hoping for some other guy to come in and save the day is a fools errand. This is what the 4th ownership group? That's a lot of hoping and praying. Over what, a guy who is, at the end of the day, just a dick. 

But whatever, blow the place up and start over ..... again. I'm sure it will work out better this time around.


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 5, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Do you think that the owners are dependent on the locals to support Jay Peak? I understand that this resort has, in the past been very dependent on locals to support it. That would explain the feeling of entitlement many people have shown. But over the past 20 years that local support has failed to keep it afloat.



Another way of looking at it might be that despite a series of owners who did not understand the culture of the Burke region, the locals remained supportive of their misguided business aspirations. 

Jay Peak does rely on it's locals, but even at the bigger resort there are only a handful of long time employees still showing up to work.  even the atmosphere has changed at the golden palace of JPR, they can't fill all the jobs sitting vacant and that's without a micromanaging megalomaniac hell bent on making some obscure vision a reality.

It might actually work though, just like Jay, if they can build enough non skiing related services,  they don't need the locals. Seems a long way from the salvation this whole program was supposed to be delivering, but who really gives a shit. It is looking like the whole program is going in the shitter, which is where it honestly belonged in the first place.  I am happy for Bill and Big Q, they have played the game well. But, the money train isn't running so well. The funding is going backwards, and the only way to really keep this nightmare alive is if they can continue the con.

I don't think they can raise enough money to be able to fully tell the whole community to f-off.  Fun watching them try.


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## Sheave Head (Apr 5, 2016)

I haven't chimed in before but I know a little bit about how burke has been run recently and the only thing I can say is that a local crowd and a destination crowd do not have to be mutually exclusive. From what was said about most other resorts by posters on this thread is that they have both, and there is no reason why burke should be different. This may seem like entitlement to people when locals say they want to be appreciated and offered the same respect as the destination market, but it is not the case. We don't want the hotel not to open, or to be empty when it does. We love this mountain and we want it to succeed, and we know that we are a part of that success and would simply liked to be treated as such.


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## 56fish (Apr 5, 2016)

Jay local since '00.  Been riding Burke since '88.  Worked on the hill '78-79 while at LSC.  No I'm not a local.  There aren't enough to sustain the mtn.  They won't need to stay in the hotel and, won't spend enough on high margin products like f&b / ski rentals / lessons / etc....Sure those that patronize Burke deserve better but, bottom line is bottom line.  If not for BMA you'd been looking at Ascutney act II a while ago.

The song remains the same - have to drive by too many resorts to get there.  Not as much snow as JP or, the spine of the Greens.  Ski 93...how many resorts do you pass coming from coastal metro areas?  Same coming down from QC.  

It's definitely a rippin' hill.  I love riding at Burke.  Love the laid back vibe.  A vibe that hasn't covered the nut in decades unfortunately.

Q sop's are laughable, really...very sad for those of the surrounding area.  Legal tangles will screw this pooch for at least another year.  Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and, Ary will leave.

The proliferation of posts show the passion of those that care.  I get that.  But, it's the same post after post.  Give AR a break....


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 5, 2016)

kingdom-tele said:


> Another way of looking at it might be that despite a series of owners who did not understand the culture of the Burke region, the locals remained supportive of their misguided business aspirations.
> ...
> 
> I don't think they can raise enough money to be able to fully tell the whole community to f-off.  Fun watching them try.



The ever illusive Kingdom-Tele makes a post!  Are you playing in the tournament this weekend?

It has taken a lot to break the locals support of operations at Burke but I think Ary finally succeeded 

The big head scratcher is why choose to alienate such a large part of your customer base?

The crazy part is all of this money was presented as a way to bring the NEK community closer together as a whole. It all may have started off with good intentions but all that gravy train $ got too tempting. Man were we (most of us) conned into the fairytale NEK utopia vision! Somehow Ary Sr is still going to be laughing all the way to the bank at the end of this.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2016)

56fish said:


> The song remains the same - *have to drive by too many resorts to get there.  Not as much snow as JP or, the spine of the Greens.  Ski 93...how many resorts do you pass coming from coastal metro areas?  Same coming down from QC.  *



And 87.  And 89.  And 91. So throw north Jersey & NYC into that mix too.  That's been a big part of my logic as well.  Location, location, location. 

 In addition to the other problems that are always mentioned here (sometimes in dead horse thumping fashion), one that doesnt get enough emphasis IMO is the place is just unfortunately situated in relation to how the modern highway system and major population centers grew since the 1950s when Burke was born.   I really believe Burke's best bet for survival is to become a R.P.T., but unlike AdironRider, I dont think that's a "fool's errand", I think it's the most likely outcome.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 5, 2016)

I think some folks make Burke's location out to be a bigger burden than reality.  

Sunday River is one of the busiest ski areas in New England. It and Burke have fairly similar commutes from Boston.  Burke's is mainly highway, so it's actually easier.

There was a time when SR was smaller than Burke is today.  Look how far SR has come in that time.

Burke will always be smaller, but the terrain it has is better, more natural snow as well.

I don't see it going Nelsap.  I do think it can sustain healthy Bromley level business. Open the hotel, professional management that sinks another million into snowmaking and I definitely agree with the locals that it could hit 125-150k skier visits.

Just not likely with the current clowns at the wheel.


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 6, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The ever illusive Kingdom-Tele makes a post!  Are you playing in the tournament this weekend?
> 
> It has taken a lot to break the locals support of operations at Burke but I think Ary finally succeeded
> 
> ...



I am, see you Friday.

Unfortunately, this whole things was never about the customer base, marketing, and money shuffling mostly. If it had been such an altruistic scheme, someone would have coughed up the 5.5mil to grease the wheels and get the hotel open. Watching Newport sit dormant, investors walking away from a table that is supposedly ripe with potential, and watching the powers to be play useless blame games is sign enough it was always about something other than injecting a community with opportunity.  

It is a classic shit show at this point.  I fail to see where cutting our noses off make any sense, other than an emotional hand job. The season pass purchases will not keep the place afloat the way it is being run, just like at Jay. The mountain is still a great one, the skiing still great, the people familiar and the relationships deep. The general will disappear eventually, he is already in way over his head. There is no way adding more complexity to the situation makes that better. Pending they actually can add more buildings and services.

I wonder if and when new management roles in, will they downsize their "nut" to fit a sustainable paradigm for our niche in the skiing world, or will it continue to be more of the same?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

Ary Jr. is reaching out to local Selectboards and to the newspaper.  There was an article that ran today.  It's good to see that he realizes the need for some community outreach.  I can't say that he said anything new (his message still suggests that money is all that matters for relationships to be strong), but the effort itself is something new.


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## zeke (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> My understanding is that Ary, Sr. is NOT very active in Jay.  That is Bill's show.  Ariel is the money.



exactly-not involved at all on a day to day standpoint. i assumed he got tired of reading about stenger saving the NEK and how wonderful a job he'd done at Jay and decided he'd buy a ski mtn and show that it's not stenger, it's him.

again, an assumption, but seems to make sense


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## zeke (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> And 87.  And 89.  And 91. So throw north Jersey & NYC into that mix too.  That's been a big part of my logic as well.  Location, location, location.
> 
> In addition to the other problems that are always mentioned here (sometimes in dead horse thumping fashion), one that doesnt get enough emphasis IMO is the place is just unfortunately situated in relation to how the modern highway system and major population centers grew since the 1950s when Burke was born.   I really believe Burke's best bet for survival is to become a R.P.T., but unlike AdironRider, I dont think that's a "fool's errand", I think it's the most likely outcome.



isn't it a rich person's toy now? not really working out

and burke is just as close to boston time wise as mt snow or stratton, closer than sugarbush and the only significant mountains you pass on the way are cannon and over-crowded loon. so i've never really understood the too far argument-more of a misconception really.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Ary Jr. is reaching out to local Selectboards and to the newspaper.  There was an article that ran today.  It's good to see that he realizes the need for some community outreach.  I can't say that he said anything new (his message still suggests that money is all that matters for relationships to be strong), but the effort itself is something new.



Link to article (behind the pay wall):
http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_70e0a5fe-d0ad-56f1-b2c0-9113fe0f8a45.html

I'm glad Ary is actually reaching out to the community and he actually took responsibility for staffing a hotel that wasn't completed and stringing everyone along (staff and people who made reservations) week to week. However, things were going downhill long before this terrible snow year. And from what he says in the article, he still doesn't get it that his unwillingness to work with the community instead of looking at every local entity as competition is what has created this deep hole he is finding himself in. The people and businesses that make up the community as a whole are not going to just bow down to him and his whims. It takes everyone working together and compromising to make this work to its full potential.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

Here is my 3 minute, completely non-researched, estimated general breakdown of major components of the local economy that are tied to people coming to and spending money in the Burke/Lyndon area as they enjoy the recreational opportunities offered here*.







Burke Mountain and Kingdom Trails are obviously the two largest drivers here. Most of the other components' incomes depend pretty heavily on the two big ones being successful. When one of the two starts leaving everyone else twisting in the wind it hurts EVERYBODY including the big component (see QBurke). 
The bottom line here is that I think Ary may be starting to realize that the bottom line can't can't get any lower than where it is at. He can try to spin it into blaming the locals for not backing him in his mismanagement of the ski resort but ultimately it all falls on him.

Ary, if you are reading this...WE ARE NOT THE COMPETITION!
People want to come to this area to enjoy the entire experience, not just your piece of the pie. If all of the pieces work together it makes for a VERY attractive place to vacation in.



*I'm sure there are other components that should go in here and my numbers are very probably not completely accurate. I'm just trying to make a point visually.


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## Cannonball (Apr 6, 2016)

zeke said:


> and burke is just as close to boston time wise as mt snow or stratton, closer than sugarbush and the only significant mountains you pass on the way are cannon and over-crowded loon. so i've never really understood the too far argument-more of a misconception really.



I definitely agree that people should take the drive to ski Burke, but you are missing huge portions of their competition with this description. 

Yes, Cannon and Loon are the only 2 that you physically/visually drive right past.  But you also drive past the exits for Waterville and Bretton Woods.  Also Attitash is a shorter drive than Burke.  And Wildcat is only ~10min longer drive.  Not to mention smaller players like Gunstock and Ragged along the way.  Burke has essentially one lift that most people would want to ride, plus some beginner terrain. Burke has their work cut out for them to pull people away from these other 6-8 larger ski areas that are equal or easier to get to.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2016)

kingdom-tele said:


> *If it had been such an altruistic scheme, someone would have coughed up the 5.5mil *to grease the wheels and get the hotel open. *Watching Newport sit dormant, investors walking away from a table that is supposedly ripe with potential,* and watching the powers to be play useless blame games is sign enough *it was always about something other than injecting a community with opportunity.
> 
> It is a classic shit show at this point.*



Welcome to "acceptance" - the good news is, it gets better from here.








zeke said:


> *isn't it a rich person's toy now?* not really working out



No.  This situation right now is about as far from a "rich person's toy" as could possibly be.   This should already have been be pretty clear to many, many months ago.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2016)

Have you local folks seen Papa Q in the NEK recently, or is he (presumably) in Florida?


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Welcome to "acceptance" - the good news is, it gets better from here.


FWIW, to his credit, Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan. He could see that even it was built out, it would likely be unsustainable.

I'm more in the wheelhouse of your denial diagram  

Although, I'm not sure there is going to be mush to accept on the other end other than a great ski hill that has an uncertain future.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Have you local folks seen Papa Q in the NEK recently, or is he (presumably) in Florida?


I'm not aware of anyone seeing him in Vermont for quite some time.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not aware of anyone seeing him in Vermont for quite some time.



I think I saw him back in December...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> FWIW, to his credit, Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan.



Yup, he thought keeping a minimalist approach was the way to go.  He's proving to be quite prophetic. 

Now the challenge is that the toothpaste is out of the tube to the tune of two HSQs and a Hotel. Can't really turn back now.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> to his credit, *Kingdom-Tele has never really been on board with the Stenger grand plan*......*I'm more in the wheelhouse of your denial diagram *



Got it.  

Well, I can tell you exactly when the "denial" stage should have ended even for the most hopeful believers.

The day when it became known that the guy who brands everything with his name, even organic farm stands, opened a nondescript shell company called GSI (i.e. not Quiros Real Estate Ventures) and bought land for $3M, then sold it back to his EB-5 group for $6M about a year later.

The "bringing hope and opportunity" to the NEK story should have ended for all that day.


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 6, 2016)

I was initially opposed to the whole thing.  I has since come to terms with the ideas and development.  I was excited about the Burke development actually.  I absolutely find how they are developing it obnoxious and myopic, but considering they were scrambling under a time line for the EB-5 program and now likely having misused money their rush to make it mini Jay makes sense.

Thi whole thing is trying to force evolution without considering  the components that made up the system. Worse, has been the disregard for some of the system's fundamental parts. Destined to fail. Not a bad thing in the long run.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

I think one of those in the QBunker just posted on the Friends FB page:



> I just bought my next year's season passes today just now !!!! Show your support for the mountain !!! Buy then now while you can at last year's prices only $549 for an adult pass they are only 5 million away to getting the hotel up and going buy passes and he lp fund raise so all the jobs can come back and get up and running faster !!!



She is slowly getting picked to death by folks pointing out how naive she is about the situation.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Got it.
> 
> Well, I can tell you exactly when the "denial" stage should have ended even for the most hopeful believers.
> 
> The day when it became known that the guy who brands everything with his name, even organic farm stands, opened a nondescript shell company called GSI (i.e. not Quiros Real Estate Ventures) and bought land for $3M, then sold it back to his EB-5 group for $6M about a year later.


Slight correction.  According to VTDigger, GSI bought 25 acres for $3.1 million and sold a mere seven acres for $6 million.

Good work if you can get it.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Got it.
> 
> Well, I can tell you exactly when the "denial" stage should have ended even for the most hopeful believers.
> 
> ...



Yep...


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

One other correction.  I'm not certain that the land sale went through.  The state asked for an independent valuation, and I have not heard anything since.  Stenger has been quoted in the media saying that construction is about to start on AnC Bio, so one would think that the land has been secured.  But if it has, I haven't heard whether or not the price was adjusted based on the independent valuation.

What we do know is that there was a purchase and sale agreement that appeared to give VERY favorable terms to Mr. Quiros.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think one of those in the QBunker just posted on the Friends FB page:
> 
> She is slowly getting picked to death by folks pointing out how naive she is about the situation.



If it weren't for some of her posts about her daughter and son working there and that she has been a electrician or something for 15 years, I would swear she was a 14yo based on her posts...



> Anyway this is not a post looking g for a fight or a argument do what you want I stand with my decision and opinion and I support this mountain!!! I want it to Re open period so I will continue to support so I bought my season family passes !!!! I believe in the mountain that I have skied on since I am 20 years old so for 23 years now and this is the mountain I want to continue to ski on so I put my money where my mouth is !!!! Drop the mic !!! Bam


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

Here's the article:



> BURKE — Ary Quiros Jr. paid the Burke Select Board a visit on Monday night to answer
> questions about the completed, but still not open, $50 million hotel and conference
> center at Q Burke Mountain Resort.
> Disputes are ongoing between the owners, the general contractor, the Vermont Agency
> ...



I'm still not buying it.  Very concerning that they have other creditors now.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Very concerning that they have other creditors now.


+1


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

A major red flag will be if Q does not pay its Burke property taxes.  Locals know that this has been the final nail in the coffin for previous failed regimes.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> A major red flag will be if Q does not pay its Burke property taxes.  Locals know that this has been the final nail in the coffin for previous failed regimes.



Do you know when they are due?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Do you know when they are due?



Soon!  I also know that they are (or at least were) fighting over the taxes for the QHotel.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Soon!  I also know that they are (or at least were) fighting over the taxes for the QHotel.



According to the town's website taxes are due November 1st.  

http://www.burkevermont.org/faq.php


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

And is Q current?


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2016)

> *“Our family has invested millions of dollars these past three years,” Quiros explains.
> “We bought it, expected to build the hotel right off, and hopefully recover the losses,”
> said Quiros.*



What is he talking about?

  LOL.

   I have no reason to believe that, regardless of operational losses related to the resort, this entire enterprise has been nothing but a money-making boondoggle for Clan Quiros.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What is he talking about?
> 
> LOL.
> 
> I have no reason to believe that, regardless of operational losses related to the resort, this entire enterprise has been nothing but a money-making boondoggle for Clan Quiros.



I agree.  He's invested *a lot of other people's money* in the area.


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## halfpintvt (Apr 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And is Q current?



The Mountain paid all of their 2015 property taxes on time. They are appealing the 2015 value of the parcel that contains most of their land and the hotel. Burke did a statistical reappraisal in 2015 (the first since 2005) and many property values changed. Burke 2000's value before the reappraisal and the partial completion of the hotel was $11,239,400 minus land use and special exemptions totaling $5,594,000. They paid taxes on $5,645,400. In 2015 their value was $17,371,700 minus land use and special exemptions totaling $6,951,000. They paid taxes on $ 10,420,700. I would expect their value to increase quite a bit this year with the completion of the hotel.     Taxes are due on Nov. 4, 2016 this year.


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## mbedle (Apr 6, 2016)

I hate to say it, but I think he came off as sounding very sincere and overall concerned with how things are standing at the hotel and what ramifications that has on the local community. Based on other quotes that have been presented in this forum, Almost seems like a different person and somewhat beaten.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2016)

Agreed.  I still think that's Ary's PR tour is a good first step.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 6, 2016)

Yes, the article definitely evoked sympathy.


----------



## River19 (Apr 6, 2016)

While the article seemed sincere, the actions of this group have been their calling card.......180 people......all the lifties.....alienating anyone and everyone.......those are the things that will speak much louder than any words the CR can print.

I have always liked the idea of having beds on the mountain......I also think you need a great product on the mountain before or CONCURRENTLY to put asses in said beds on the mountain.  Otherwise the hotel provides a service no one is requesting......

The hotel was built when it was built and how it was built entirely because it was an EB-5 funded.  Why anyone spending their OWN money ever build a $50M hotel on that mountain?  Makes zero sense. 

Ariel is the money man? Evidently not as much money as people think, can't pony up single digit Millions to fund the hotel and hasn't really stuck any serious capital into the ski resort.  It has been incredibly obvious to all of us who have been following this, where they can place EB-5 money, things are funded....sort of.  Anywhere EB-5 money is off limits......it is expense-cut city.  F&B?  They took the Tamarack (which used to be pretty decent) from "meh/good" to multiple incarnations of Ary's warped fantasy......haven't been up there on purpose in a long time now.

They seem to have even screwed up the Bear Den......that place literally runs itself......keep the power on, the beer truck coming and staff a bartender.....book a few acoustic acts Thursday - Sundays..........we're not launching the space shuttle here.....this shit is easy.

I don't care who Jr appeals to at this point in town meetings, papers, etc. way too little way too late.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 7, 2016)

On a completely different note....
I have two kids 4 and 6 years old and the LOVE the show Kratt's Creatures. I had no idea the brothers grew up skiing Burke and Jay. 8)

http://vtskiandride.com/chriskratt/


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2016)

The latest Q FB post shows them getting the chairs off the SBX.  They thank Mike's Electric for "donating" a mini-hoe to do it.  :roll:


----------



## Albert (Apr 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The latest Q FB post shows them getting the chairs off the SBX.  They thank Mike's Electric for "donating" a mini-hoe to do it.  :roll:



Who's company is that? one of the few remaining employees id assume?


----------



## Albert (Apr 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> A major red flag will be if Q does not pay its Burke property taxes.  Locals know that this has been the final nail in the coffin for previous failed regimes.



If they dont pay the taxes maybe we can seize the place, probably not but wishful thinking...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2016)

Albert said:


> Who's company is that? one of the few remaining employees id assume?



The new manager's company.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2016)

Albert said:


> If they dont pay the taxes maybe we can seize the place, probably not but wishful thinking...



We've already seen at least one tax sale of Burke in the past......that's enough.


----------



## faQ (Apr 7, 2016)

Looks like SAM is reporting on the Q. Check it:  https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/8605-q-burke-development-awash-with-controversy


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## yotefan (Apr 7, 2016)

Mike Pappalardo owns Mike's Electric and he is the latest in a long line of g.m.s.


----------



## River19 (Apr 7, 2016)

Sad, it is all very sad and pathetic.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2016)

I wonder how much time Quiros & Stenger are being given to "find" the "missing" millions? 

 Since they've stalled and simply non-complied with many other financial requests it would be nice to hear, "they have until April XX".

Might be time for the SEC to pay Quiros Sr. a little, _"we just want to make sure you're still here"_ visit too, for that matter.


----------



## Albert (Apr 7, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Q sounds like a shitty manager, but shitty managers a dime a dozen. Burke wasn't minting gold before, and I took some heat for this before as well, but I don't think all this local talent Q has pissed off were really all that competent to begin with. If they were, it wouldn't still be "failing".
> 
> Kind of one big metaphor for Vermont.



Just because a mountain is failing doesn't mean its employees are incompetent. Here's an analogy: I work at a bakery. I perfectly complete all my tasks including baking, cleaning, and whatever else you do at a fucking bakery, in record time. Everything tastes delicious. But the bakery doesn't sell enough to be profitable. Why? It's not because of the product or service I have provided. Everyone who comes in loves everything i've baked and have grown to love the bakery and the staff including myself. There are simply obstacles which the management/ownership have failed to address. Does that make me, as an employee, incompetent? 

The Q has now driven off so many people who put their heart and soul into Burke and were more than competent because of his own ego, that its going to be incredibly difficult to operate efficiently in the foreseeable future. AR its clear to myself and many others on this thread that you know nothing about Burke Mountain or why things have declined to the current state. Do us a favor and stay in the adirondacks if you feel NY is so superior.


----------



## Albert (Apr 7, 2016)

yotefan said:


> Mike Pappalardo owns Mike's Electric and he is the latest in a long line of g.m.s.



and if im not mistaken he was already brought in, driven off by ARY, and now brought back? what a shit show indeed!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2016)

Albert said:


> and if im not mistaken he was already brought in, driven off by ARY, and now brought back? what a shit show indeed!



Apparently he was brought in to clean (the empty) house by Dad. He also is very explosive--yelling at customers and Ary. Real winner.


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## burski (Apr 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Apparently he was brought in to clean (the empty) house by Dad. He also is very explosive--yelling at customers and Ary. Real winner.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



and his company also had a no bid contract to do all the electric work in the q hotel, so he is a bit indebted to the Q (I am also willing to guess he has been paid in full and probably has not filed a lien on the hotel). 

And he is a huge a$$hat to boot


----------



## zeke (Apr 8, 2016)

burski said:


> and his company also had a no bid contract to do all the electric work in the q hotel, so he is a bit indebted to the Q (I am also willing to guess he has been paid in full and probably has not filed a lien on the hotel).
> 
> And he is a huge a$$hat to boot



Is AQ Sr. a partial owner of MEI?


----------



## burski (Apr 8, 2016)

zeke said:


> Is AQ Sr. a partial owner of MEI?



I don't know that for sure but I have a guess!

and then there is Peak CM, this is a contractor that I believe was incorporated in 2012 and by 2014 they have contracts (almost exclusively with the Q companies) for nearly a quarter $$$$ BILLION worth of work that they did not bid on!  I wonder how that works, but it's good if you can get it.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 8, 2016)

That's right. He made his first appearance shortly after Ary started running the place and he lasted until their first disagreement. Apparently all is forgiven now and in Mike's own words he's back to "clean house".


----------



## yeggous (Apr 8, 2016)

yotefan said:


> That's right. He made his first appearance shortly after Ary started running the place and he lasted until their first disagreement. Apparently all is forgiven now and in Mike's own words he's back to "clean house".



What is left to clean at this point?


----------



## yotefan (Apr 8, 2016)

And Stenger's connection to Peak CM?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2016)

yotefan said:


> and in Mike's own words he's back to "clean house".


Mission accomplished.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2016)

Q Burke just posted photos to their Facebook page with the following comment, "A lot of work is underway inside in preparation for the summer season! Here comes success!"  (It kind of reminds me of Charlie Sheen yelling, "Winning!")


----------



## yotefan (Apr 8, 2016)

That's Ary checking the Friends of Burke Mountain Facebook page.


----------



## burski (Apr 8, 2016)

yotefan said:


> And Stenger's connection to Peak CM?



I do not know if there is a connection between Q and Peak CM, the fact that the company started its first job ever at Jay and then has since been awarded nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in contracts that it did not have to bid on by these same entities does not smell right.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

burski said:


> I do not know if there is a connection between Q and Peak CM, the fact that the company started its first job ever at Jay and then has since been awarded nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in contracts that it did not have to bid on by these same entities does not smell right.



I believe it has been reported that Stenger is a silent partner in Peak CM.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Q Burke just posted photos to their Facebook page with the following comment, "A lot of work is underway inside in preparation for the summer season! Here comes success!"  (It kind of reminds me of Charlie Sheen yelling, "Winning!")
> 
> View attachment 19913
> 
> View attachment 19914



He needs two computers to reply to all that fan mail I am sure.......


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I believe it has been reported that Stenger is a silent partner in Peak CM.



That seems really hard to believe, especially if the contracts were not put out for bid.


----------



## burski (Apr 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That seems really hard to believe, especially if the contracts were not put out for bid.



It is a Fact that Peak CM was awarded the Q Burke Hotel, Tennis, and Aquatic center as well as ANC Bio and their was not a competitive bid process for any of those projects.


----------



## WoodCore (Apr 8, 2016)

burski said:


> It is a Fact that Peak CM was awarded the Q Burke Hotel, Tennis, and Aquatic center as well as ANC Bio and their was not a competitive bid process for any of those projects.



Not sure about ANC Bio but the rest of the projects are all private projects and therefore are not subject to public bid procedure and law. Regardless most private projects are still solicited to multiple vendors to guarantee the best final product at the lowest possible price. Seeing all these projects given to Peak CM directly screams inside job and increases the shady factor exponentially. 

If this is the case and Stenger and crew are ultimately in control of Peak CM, the whole situation with the lien makes total sense. Take the heat and attention away and place it back at the State auditors for not releasing the funds. I'm sure there are 1000 conspiracy theories but either way you look at it, it's a very tangled web that going to take some time to sort out.


----------



## Albert (Apr 8, 2016)

*Peak cm*

As far as I know, Peak CM President/Owner Jerry Davis used to work for DEW construction before starting Peak CM. DEW is responsible for a number of the developments at Jay including some of the most recent condos currently under construction. While bidding would be smart, it's not required for private projects. Seems they're sticking with a developer who they have a history with. Where that history started/came to be is still very much up in the air...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2016)

You are missing the point.  Even though it may be a private project I would imagine that there is a fiduciary duty owed to the investors.  But this is EB-5.  So who knows.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 8, 2016)

Albert said:


> As far as I know, Peak CM President/Owner Jerry Davis used to work for DEW construction before starting Peak CM. DEW is responsible for a number of the developments at Jay including some of the most recent condos currently under construction. *While bidding would be smart, it's not required for private projects. Seems they're sticking with a developer who they have a history with.* Where that history started/came to be is still very much up in the air...



That would be a quaint explanation if we're talking about an occasional $20,000 job that pops up ad hoc once or twice a year.  

It's completely unacceptable and should raise major eyebrows when you're talking about over 1/4 BILLION dollars spent over several years related to many dissimilar projects.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

Just posted on FB.  There are a lot of Q's to manage:

https://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami/ariel-quiros-7043346.aspx


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 8, 2016)

If you really want to make it difficult for someone to track money, start a whole lot of non-descript companies and get really good at the shell game.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> If you really want to make it difficult for someone to track money, start a whole lot of non-descript companies and get really good at the shell game.



I love the Q Teddy Bear and Q Vision entities.......


----------



## yotefan (Apr 8, 2016)

And Q Family Farms.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

Hate to tell Ary but his desk is WAY too clean. That's a red flag when I see that someone has enough time to clean an office like that. It is also funny that he cannot keep his own personal house from the outside, let alone the ski area,look good and kept.  


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## AdironRider (Apr 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Hate to tell Ary but his desk is WAY too clean. That's a red flag when I see that someone has enough time to clean an office like that. It is also funny that he cannot keep his own personal house from the outside, let alone the ski area,look good and kept.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




You guys are grasping at straws now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> You guys are grasping at straws now.



Calling the kettle black are we?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

The latest press release........after ski season has ended. 

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2016/04/08/burke-jewel-northeast-kingdom/82770968/

And I'm not sure what she is saying here.....the ski area had leased state land since the 1950's



> In 1974 the dream was conceived of operating Burke Mountain privately as a ski resort when a lease was signed with the state of Vermont granting the use of approximately 1,000 acres of the Darling State Park for development and operating a skiing area.





> Wasting no time, Q Burke Mountain Resorts, LLC announced plans for a $1 million snowmaking upgrade as well as the addition of a $55 million hotel project to begin immediately. Within three years the Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center was built and significant improvements and additions to the existing snowmaking infrastructure completed including twenty full auto super/standard polecats towers on Warrens Way and select strategic spots around the resort, a new booster pump which helps distribute water up the mountain quicker in addition to re-purposing the existing fan guns to the Dipper trails.



$1 million "donated" by and angel and $55 million of "other people's money" for a Hotel not open.



> Future plans include an indoor tennis and aquatic center as their next structural milestone in addition to two more modest size hotels which will build upon the already established Olympic training ground platform to incorporate a world-class instructional program * in not only their snow sports programs, but absorbing this attitude and approach in every aspect of the Q Burke cultural.[sic]*



:lol:

We've had enough of the Q "cultural" [sic] I think.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2016)

It's nice to see an effort being made, that's for sure.  

I took issue with one thing that was said, though: "The Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center has not announced its grand opening date as of yet."

Did they forget December, 2015?


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Calling the kettle black are we?



I don't think that analogy applies here, and frankly illustrates my point on how locals are being pretty petty about a lot of things.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

The latest...I don't think this has been posted yet:

https://vtdigger.org/2016/04/08/state-regulator-q-burke-developers-ran-out-of-money/

And all you really need to know:



> Vermont’s top financial regulator said delays in the opening of a Northeast Kingdom hotel occurred because the developers were running short of money.



Another classic:



> In a communication from Feb. 12, Donegan wrote that the “project sponsors,” Stenger and Quiros charged 15 percent in construction management fees for the $50 million hotel.
> 
> The 15 percent construction management fee is on top of payments to the general contractor for administration of construction.
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

Wow!



> On Dec. 11, the day the Q Burke Hotel was originally slated to open, Stenger texted Moulton.
> 
> “Pat I realize your team is busy,” Stenger wrote. “But Rome really is burning. Hundreds of hotel employees can’t work and critical equipment is not available to us. IT especially. 250k needed and without payment not delivered. 3,7 million [sic] is in the escrow account. More than enough to get us where we need to be. Please if you can authorize some payment today we can get some progress here.
> 
> “It is a real crisis,” Stenger continued.





> A few months later as he was negotiating an agreement with PeakCM over the Certificate of Occupancy, Stenger texted Moulton again on Feb. 3, demanding authorization of funds.
> 
> “The contractor will release the CO to us but only if the retainage funds that are in this last pay app are authorized to be released,” Stenger writes. “I have been told that the pay app is at your agency now and was just sent yesterday. If that pay app can be authorized then I believe the CO will be released.
> 
> ...


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 8, 2016)

This is getting more and more pathetic.  They're killing it with land sale,  EB5 management fee, and now construction fee.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This is getting more and more pathetic.  They're killing it with land sale,  EB5 management fee, and now construction fee.



And yet have "no money" to contribute on their own (?)


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## burski (Apr 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This is getting more and more pathetic.  They're killing it with land sale,  EB5 management fee, and now construction fee.



But they are here to save the northeast kingdom and creat jobs.  This is all for the people.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2016)

That was an absolute depressing read.  I've said before that, in my opinion, Quiros is not in the business of running a ski area.  He's in the business of spending EB-5 money.  

This quote was worrisome: 


> “For you to include items like ‘anticipated’ legal fees and attempting to bill for equipment that has already been paid, suggests that you are not performing your duties either as a construction manager or a fiduciary,” Donegan said.



At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the furniture for these hotels is purchased from Q Furniture, LLC and the shingles from Q Building Supplies, LLC.  

If $250 million has been spent on EB-5 projects at Jay Peak, and 15% has been charged, that adds up to $37.5 million.  But yet there is no money to open the hotel.

Rome really is burning.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2016)

Today's Caledonian Record had a thank you to the employees:


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2016)

.


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## faQ (Apr 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 19919
> 
> 
> .



WTF is going on with this PR stuff?  "I'm with Q", Jessica's history of Burke, "Dear Employees".


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 9, 2016)

Either orders from the top, or the new GM and HR guys are scrambling with the damage control, possibly to overshadow all the EB5 secrets coming out?


----------



## freeski (Apr 9, 2016)

The last batch of news sounds like the building of the venue for the Olympics in Sochi. Next week on American Greed...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2016)

faQ said:


> WTF is going on with this PR stuff?  "I'm with Q", Jessica's history of Burke, "Dear Employees".



She claims that the BFP article was in the works for weeks at BFP's request.  I find it hard to believe, and kind of lame of the BFP, to be askin for a piece on skiing in APRIL after this terrible season has ended.  It was a nice effort, but there were some factual things that were not correct in it.  

As to the ad, a little birdie told me that there might have been a huddle this week with a PR firm to discuss what to do in response to the criticism and now almost daily barrage of negative media coverage.  This is likely one item from that list.  The blog post from earlier this week was likely another....albeit half baked attempt.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 19919
> 
> 
> .



In the tradition of the "Scotty Translator", I'd like to offer this translation, or in the alternative, the first draft offered by Q:



> Dear Assholes:
> 
> Shut the f^&* up!  This season suuuuucccckkkkked.  Had you employees sucked it up and worked harder then you would not have lost your jobs.  I have fought wars where men have died.  And you pussies are whining because you could not slide down some snow?  You all got what you deserve last week--a form letter saying "f&*( you!"
> 
> ...



:lol:

:lol:

Laugh, please laugh, because that is all we can do :roll:


----------



## epic (Apr 9, 2016)

15% of 50 million is 7.5 million. And they are short by how much???


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 9, 2016)

epic said:


> 15% of 50 million is 7.5 million. And they are short by how much???



You are forgetting the money for the EB5 management fee as well as the fact that it's now hard to believe that the construction cost was not inflated to begin with.

It certainly looks like the main reason that they are doing this is to skim as much money as they can.  Why the hell would they use their own money ?

Their only incentive to save the Hotel is so they can keep their scam going elsewhere.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2016)

I thought that the investment at Jay has been about $250 million.  Where are some people getting the bigger numbers?  Are you including Burke?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> If you really *want to make it difficult for someone to track money, start a whole lot of non-descript companies and get really good at the shell game.*



Absolutely this.  Yes.  



VTKilarney said:


> I've said before that, in my opinion,* Quiros is not in the business of running a ski area.  He's in the business of spending EB-5 money.  *



Slight correction.

Quiros is not in the business of running a ski area.  He's in the business of pocketing EB-5 money.



VTKilarney said:


> At this point *it wouldn't surprise me if the furniture for these hotels  is purchased from Q Furniture, LLC and the shingles from Q Building  Supplies, LLC.*



I fully expect that.

Q) How did Quiros make his fortune?
A) He was a buyer - specifically an importer.

Auditors should be looking for entities set up by Quiros and relatives and known contacts of Quiros and cross-matching them with the ACH movements & purchase orders etc... for construction materials, supplies, yes....furniture etc... in relation to Jay Peak and Q Burke.

Which is a given, except for the fact that this is norther Vermont, so auditors are probably too busy getting ready for trout season and checking out which double-features will be shown at the Sunset Drive-in this summer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2016)

So back to the positive.  

This morning a Burkie posted that he wanted to get a copy of this great photo that Robert Lyons took some time ago of the mountain:






Well, by popular demand, Mr. Lyons has been gracious enough to come out of retirement and to make a special run of this photograph for the Friends of Burke Mountain.  Please click here to order yours:

http://www.robertlyonsphotography.com/gd7903.htm

Be sure that thank him!


----------



## freeski (Apr 10, 2016)

He'll get sued for not using the "Q". Very nice picture.


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 10, 2016)

I vote we call Mary J Burke 

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## Big Wave Dave (Apr 11, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And yet have "no money" to contribute on their own (?)
> 
> 
> this is what amazes me the most. if they actually have made what some people are speculating, how could they not pay peak CM off and make all this go away?
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2016)

Big Wave Dave said:


> this is what amazes me the most. if they actually have made what some people are speculating, how could they not pay peak CM off and make all this go away?
> 
> And the lack of an answer to that question is what scares me the most about the Quiros family owning Burke and Jay.



Exactly.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2016)

I just have this horrible feeling Jay/Burke are going to eventually be featured in a CNBC _American Greed_ episode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Greed


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

WCAX is reporting activity at the QHotel--specifically lawyers meeting, changing the locks, and securing the area. 


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

https://mobile.twitter.com/WCAX_Jennifer/status/720375434697834496


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## snoseek (Apr 13, 2016)

Wow...thats some escalation!

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## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

Qarma is a bitch.


----------



## River19 (Apr 13, 2016)

Well, let's just say a few of us on here sadly saw this coming for a while......didn't think it would come so soon......but let's see what the real deal here is.  

If this was just Peak taking control, it would be quieter......this is something more.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 13, 2016)

> *Authorities on Site at Q Burke* Offices have reportedly been secured and locks changed.



http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=421


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 13, 2016)

Guess now we know why Ary's desk looked so clean!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

From the Burlington Free Press:

"I'm not worried about it," Quiros said. "They're not going to find anything, because we're doing everything right."

Quiros said "the only bad thing" about the investigation is that it is going to scare customers and employees.

"Hopefully we can start moving forward and start planning for the next ski season," Quiros said.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 13, 2016)

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ficials-situation-unfolding-q-burke/83004948/


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

And, based upon who "supposedly" is going to be at tomorrow's Press Event, I am posting this and asking folks to look right in the MIDDLE of the picture:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ficials-situation-unfolding-q-burke/83004948/





> As president and chief executive officer of Q Burke ski resort, Ary Quiros said he has no connection to the limited partnership that owns the Q Burke Hotel. The $50 million hotel was built using money from foreign investors under the federal EB-5 program. Foreign nationals investing $500,000 in projects in economically depressed regions of the country receive conditional green cards through the program. The cards can become permanent, offering U.S. residency, if the project creates a specified number of jobs.




Riiiiiiiggghhhht.  So the guys in suits executing the search warrant just showed up at the wrong place.



> Ary Quiros said Wednesday he was confident the investigation would reveal no wrongdoing.
> 
> "I'm not worried about it," Quiros said. "They're not going to find anything, because we're doing everything right."
> 
> Quiros said "the only bad thing" about the investigation is that it is going to scare customers and employees.



But didn't you just plead ignorance?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> Well, let's just say a few of us on here sadly saw this coming for a while......*didn't think it would come so soon*......but let's see what the real deal here is.



Soon?   This is about 2 years too late.  

And I certainly hope offices at Jay Peak are being simultaneously raided, but sadly this appears to be orchestrated by State of Vermont and not the Feds, so my default belief is incompetence will prevail and that that's likely not happening.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

A month or so ago I posted a theory about the hotel not being open.  My theory was that they weren't paying off the contractor because they were circling the wagons since the shit was hitting the fan.

I'm starting to think that this theory may have been fairly accurate.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Soon?   This is about 2 years too late.
> 
> And I certainly hope offices at Jay Peak are being simultaneously raided, but sadly this appears to be orchestrated by State of Vermont and not the Feds, so my default belief is incompetence will prevail and that that's likely not happening.


It remains to be seen if it's the feds or the state.  The governor has said that it was "a coordinated effort."  The state seldom acts this decisively (changing locks, etc.) whereas the feds often do.  On the other hand, one argument for it being the state is that the state attorney general is going to be at the press conference tomorrow.  So we shall see...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

Someone just posted this on Facebook: "Jay and Miami also visited by "agents"."

I have no idea if this is true or not.  

Another person made a post on Facebook saying that this is merely a management company that is going to take over the day to day operations while the SEC investigates.  That seems hard to believe, but who knows.

There is no doubt going to be a lot of speculation until the press conference happens tomorrow.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)




----------



## River19 (Apr 13, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Soon?   This is about 2 years too late.
> 
> And I certainly hope offices at Jay Peak are being simultaneously raided, but sadly this appears to be orchestrated by State of Vermont and not the Feds, so my default belief is incompetence will prevail and that that's likely not happening.



Fair point........I just assume the Feds don't really move too quickly.......see Bernie M...........and we have no idea yet what the deal is here so I will hold off on getting to fired up just yet......and also, there is the reality that even if Q is done.....this is a mess for the upcoming bike season and ski season.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 13, 2016)

Bike season wilk go off fine without a hotel or even bike park. Town will have a great summer. The tiki bar shall prevail

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 13, 2016)

So Patrick Leahy said this today, about 2 hours before the raid commenced:



> *If this Regional Center program is to continue, it must be reformed.
> 
> I  will not support mere window dressing.  Proposals that do not require  transparency and accountability for every EB-5 project are just that.
> 
> The program is need of a blood transfusion, not a Band-Aid. We know what  is needed to repair this program. It is long past time that we fix it.*



Purely coincidental timing I'm sure.

The biggest "EB-5 hugger" of them all gets to go on record with his disdain for the "abuse" about 5 minutes before it officially all goes sour.   Speaking of corruption......

http://www.wcax.com/story/31713464/senate-takes-another-look-at-eb-5-visa-program


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

VT Digger is reporting the following:
"A high-level source said no arrests would be made."

Article here:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/13/breaking-investigators-on-scene-at-q-burke-resort/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> VT Digger is reporting the following:
> *"A high-level source said no arrests would be made."*



I wouldn't read too much into that at this early point.

When the state's attorney general says this:



> “*Tomorrow* *with at least an hour’s notice to press*, there will  be discussion of developments in the Northeast Kingdom”



That's code to the media that_ "you dont want to miss this, and you all better be here"._ 

 Something's up.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

I bet that they regret their strategy of trying to make the state look like the sole cause of the problem.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I bet that they regret their strategy of trying to make the state look like the sole cause of the problem.



I can only imagine that the Caledonian Wrecker is going to say about this.  

I also find it hilarious that some folks actually said on the Friends of Burke page not to worry because these were "friendlies" showing up to get documents to take over and manage the mountain during the investigation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2016)

It definitely seems like WCAX was tipped off.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 13, 2016)

I am sure someone on the mountain (not someone "with Q") called them.  The action started around noon and WCAX was not there till late afternoon.

urgggggh-  why can't we have sensible adults doing it legally and without B.S.    Clearly, that is too much to ask.  Nope, we get the keystone cops for the money side and Hughy, lewy and Dooey (Ary, Mike and Mrs "I am with Q") on the management side.  These folks can't even steal from folks who expect their money to be stolen w/o screwing it up.




VTKilarney said:


> It definitely seems like WCAX was tipped off.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It definitely seems like WCAX was tipped off.



Yeah, I CAN'T imagine WHO would politicize this investigation in order to try and save face...


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 13, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> These folks can't even steal from folks who expect their money to be stolen w/o screwing it up.



:smile:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I am sure someone on the mountain (not someone "with Q") called them.  The action started around noon and WCAX was not there till late afternoon.
> 
> urgggggh-  why can't we have sensible adults doing it legally and without B.S.    Clearly, that is too much to ask.  Nope, we get the keystone cops for the money side and Hughy, lewy and Dooey (Ary, Mike and Mrs "I am with Q") on the management side.  These folks can't even steal from folks who expect their money to be stolen w/o screwing it up.



Wonder if she is still "Standing with the Q" now?  Wonder if we will see some more ads or PR to try to spin this?


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Wonder if she is still "Standing with the Q" now?  Wonder if we will see some more ads or PR to try to spin this?



Well, perhaps yesterday's action gave a local locksmith some business from the Q where he actually got paid........so there is that......


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Wonder if she is still "Standing with the Q" now?  Wonder if we will see some more ads or PR to try to spin this?



"Miss, you can still stand with the Q, but you'll need to do so over there"

*state police pointing outside the door*


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

One has to wonder what this means for summer operations, and perhaps even next winter.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 14, 2016)

Where is AndironRider to tell everyone it's just locals being petty.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 14, 2016)

yotefan said:


> Where is AndironRider to tell everyone it's just locals being petty.



...and everyone's favorite condo salesman...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> "Miss, you can still stand with the Q, but you'll need to do so over there"
> 
> *state police pointing outside the door*



:lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

When you look at the expressions on these people's faces, it makes you wonder if they stumbled on a spreadsheet that they weren't intended to see.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

You gotta love a guy who has so many portable hard drives for his "work" computers.


----------



## djspookman (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> One has to wonder what this means for summer operations, and perhaps even next winter.



Well.. I haven't been able to book my campsite up at the mtns campground for our annual guys bike weekend/ bike trip up there yet.  I've been trying to get through for weeks with no luck. Phone nor email. Ugh.   I'm losing hope for summer operations by the minute.


----------



## Edd (Apr 14, 2016)

djspookman said:


> Well.. I haven't been able to book my campsite up at the mtns campground for our annual guys bike weekend/ bike trip up there yet.  I've been trying to get through for weeks with no luck. Phone nor email. Ugh.   I'm losing hope for summer operations by the minute.



This blows my mind.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

From Lyndon State College News 7:
"DEVELOPING: Q Burke employees are back at work this morning after authorities spent yesterday afternoon searching offices, seizing computers, and changing locks. CEO Ary Quiros Jr. says he can't comment on the matter at this time, but has confirmed the investigation and the fact that employees had to be let into their offices this morning. He also says it's work as usual right now and that the truth will be known soon. Our crew at the scene will be monitoring the situation throughout the day."


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Well, perhaps yesterday's action gave a local locksmith some business from the Q where he actually got paid........so there is that......



I think that counts for EB-5. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Interesting to see that Ariel Sr. and his wife have donated at least $32,000 to the Vermont Democratic Party in the past couple of years.  
That's if this website is accurate:
http://www.campaignmoney.com/

Ariel's wife listed her occupation as Secretary of Quiros Family Farm.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting to see that Ariel Sr. and his wife have donated at least $32,000 to the Vermont Democratic Party in the past couple of years.
> That's if this website is accurate:
> http://www.campaignmoney.com/
> 
> Ariel's wife listed her occupation as Secretary of Quiros Family Farm.



More reason why that ass clown Shumlin needs to be called out if he appears at this press conference at crows about his law enforcement of these folks.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## djspookman (Apr 14, 2016)

Edd said:


> This blows my mind.



Just means I'll have to find another campground for mountain bikers in the area... which is ok, as Qballs' rates for the campground keep going up every year with no added services (besides the fact that they are the closest campground to the trails)

Oh, and we've been doing this for 11 years now.. Hard to change sometimes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Well, perhaps yesterday's action gave a local locksmith some business from the Q where he actually got paid........so there is that......



You're closer to the truth than you know in terms of the "jobs created" metric.



VTKilarney said:


> You *gotta love a guy who has so many portable hard drives for his "work" computers.*



Good eye; and in all seriousness, that is bizarre.  He's working for a local ski bump, not sequencing genes for the  National Human Genome Research Institute.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 14, 2016)

Its a pretty 20 minute drive up to brighton state park and that campground is everything i ever wanted in a campground.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Press conference to occur sometime between 11am and 1pm at the statehouse today.


----------



## djspookman (Apr 14, 2016)

snoseek said:


> Its a pretty 20 minute drive up to brighton state park and that campground is everything i ever wanted in a campground.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk



Agreed, I have stayed there many a time.. but 10pm quiet hour for 15 guys is tough...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Well now, Jay Peak is getting the treatment too....
http://www.wcax.com/story/31723261/outside-company-managing-jay-peak-q-burke


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

New management company is running both resorts this morning... WOW


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

Steiger and Quiros now have no authority to conduct business at each resort.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> New management company is running both resorts this morning... WOW



So does this mean that Ary is out of a job?


----------



## freeski (Apr 14, 2016)

Changing locks, new management, it must be the Feds and they already have something. Sounds like American Greed...Well, the press conference will be interesting. Up until now this has been local news; that changes today.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So does this mean that Ary is out of a job?



I would guess that he still has a job, just nothing to do at that job.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're closer to the truth than you know in terms of the "jobs created" metric.
> 
> 
> 
> Good eye; and in all seriousness, that is bizarre.  He's working for a local ski bump, not sequencing genes for the  National Human Genome Research Institute.



It is really odd to have that many external hard drives around unless you are dealing with loads of pics etc.

I ahdn;e large amounts of data mostly through network drives but most hard drives today can store years worth of data generated by a busniess as small as a ski resort.....heck the whole Q empire could fit their shit on single HD......of course maybe not the stuff they want to hide.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> It is really odd to have that many external hard drives around unless you are dealing with loads of pics etc.
> 
> I ahdn;e large amounts of data mostly through network drives but most hard drives today can store years worth of data generated by a busniess as small as a ski resort.....heck the whole Q empire could fit their shit on single HD......of course maybe not the stuff they want to hide.



I have several portable drives, but they are primary and back ups for the thousands of photos I take (each RAW file is ~26MB).


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I would guess that he still has a job, just nothing to do at that job.



Victory!!!!!  :beer:








I think?!  :blink:


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Victory!!!!!  :beer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree - outcome of this could be a lot worst than having the owners in place. Its not like there is a line of people looking to buy an underperforming ski resort.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I agree - outcome of this could be a lot worst than having the owners in place. Its not like there is a line of people looking to buy an underperforming ski resort.



And who knows what is going to end up happening at Jay as well? If both resorts end up on the block, are there enough buyers out there looking to buy not one but two ski resorts?

I could see Jay Peak being very attractive although very expensive.
Burke could be the bargain purchase but it would be surrounded with more uncertainty.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I agree - outcome of this could be a lot worst than having the owners in place. Its not like there is a line of people looking to buy an underperforming ski resort.



Yeah, I have no idea what is going to happen now.  Burke, unfortunately, has been here before.  In 1989-1991 it was operated by a creditor bank.  If history has any bearing, folks can expect things to just be on life support with minimal marketing.  The lifts would be turning though.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I have several portable drives, but they are primary and back ups for the thousands of photos I take (each RAW file is ~26MB).



Exactly, you are a professional photo dude....makes 100% sense.....if we can manage $5.6B worth of "stuff" with a laptop and <1GB of shared drives, Ary can manage a ski hill and an empty building with a laptop......just sayin.....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

The "management" company appears to be mostly hotel oriented. I wonder what they know about running a ski resort*?

http://www.leisurehotel.com/services/management-services/

*I'm sure they know more than Q Jr :razz:


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

This is what the management company does, according to their website:

Distressed Asset Management
Professional Receivership Services for Hotels, Resorts, Condos, Restaurants, Entertainment Venues, & Golf Courses

Leisure Hotels and Resorts understands the technical and legal processes that are  involved when it comes to receiving a distressed property by a lender through foreclosure, bankruptcy, and negotiated transitional handovers.   We have extensive experience in independent and branded hotel, resort and condo association receivership. Since the late 1980’s, Leisure managed a whole host distressed hotel assets from local, regional and national lending institutions as well from the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC).   We stabilize troubled assets; operate them in an efficient cost effective manner while providing the lender with a plan to best meet the needs to secure a sale in a realistic timeline that minimizes the financial loss.

In addition our nationally ranked hospitality brokerage division can also provide assistance during this transition phase. All of these services allow us to offer a one-stop shop during this crucial receivership / transition phase of the hotel asset.

Within 24 hours of a court ordered receivership appointment, Leisure Hotels will take over the asset and following process will be implemented

Receivership Takeover Process

Secure all assets including bank accounts, cash, and all property
Follow proper human resource procedures for all employees
Take care of all life safety issues
Ensure all local, state, and federal laws are followed
Follow all franchise policies and procedures
Execute all required reporting under court order
Make all necessary court appearances
Manage Asset in the most cost effective manor
Property walk through and assessment


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

^I just got to that page on their website. I think this means there is no one standing with the "Q" anymore.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And who knows what is going to end up happening at Jay as well? If both resorts end up on the block, are there enough buyers out there looking to buy not one but two ski resorts?
> 
> I could see Jay Peak being very attractive although very expensive.
> Burke could be the bargain purchase but it would be surrounded with more uncertainty.



Might be a "buy one, get one free..." kind of thing

Either that or a bunch of Burke Mountain Academy alums, who have gone on to bigger and better things, get together and put in a bargain basement deal for Burke.

All anyone can say right now is there's a huge amount of uncertainty, and it's likely going to take a long time for everything to be figured out, acted on, and likely fines/punishments/etc levied


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Will he cover his head with a hoody when he has to do the perp walk-   or put on the proud army officer stand tall look?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Here are a couple of my thoughts:

1) Ary "showing up to work" is basically showing up to tell the management company how to turn on the lights and where the pens are kept.  Ary won't be around for long.

2) The state's press conference is all about saving face.  It looks like it's the SEC doing the heavy lifting here.

3) Installing a management company may be a good sign.  This could be an indication that there is a purchaser in the wings and that the SEC wants to preserve the assets as much as possible.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Management company is S.O.P. when the SEC moves in.  They cannot lockout the existing management team and then not have an operational asset.  That said, they don't do this for shits and grins.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Burlington Free Press to Livestream the Press Conference at Noon.

The link is in the article.
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ficials-situation-unfolding-q-burke/83004948/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

The Free Press is live streaming the press conference.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Free Press is live streaming the press conference.



Good thing we have a popcorn machine at work!


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

SEC Case Freezes Assets of Ski Resort Steeped in Fraudulent EB-5 Offerings
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2016-69
Washington D.C., April 14, 2016 — The Securities and Exchange Commission today announced fraud charges and an asset freeze against a Vermont-based ski resort and related businesses allegedly misusing millions of dollars raised through investments solicited under the EB-5 Immigrant Investor Program.  The SEC’s case was unsealed today in federal court in Miami, and the court has appointed a receiver over the companies to prevent any further spending of investor assets.
The SEC alleges that Ariel Quiros of Miami, William Stenger of Newport, Vt., and their companies made false statements and omitted key information while raising more than $350 million from investors to construct ski resort facilities and a biomedical research facility in Vermont.  Investors were told they were investing in one of several projects connected to Jay Peak Inc., a ski resort operated by Quiros and Stenger, and their money would only be used to finance that specific project.  Instead, in Ponzi-like fashion, money from investors in later projects was misappropriated to fund deficits in earlier projects.  More than $200 million was allegedly used for other-than-stated purposes, including $50 million spent on Quiros’s personal expenses and in other ways never disclosed to investors.

According to the SEC’s complaint, Quiros improperly tapped investor funds for such things as the purchase of a luxury condominium, payment of his income taxes and other taxes unrelated to the investments, and acquisition of an unrelated ski resort.

“The alleged fraud ran the gamut from false statements to deceptive financial transactions to outright theft,” said Andrew Ceresney, Director of the SEC’s Division of Enforcement.  “As alleged in our complaint, the defendants diverted millions of EB-5 investor dollars to their own pockets, leaving little money for construction of the research facility investors were told would be built and thereby putting the investors’ funds and their immigration petitions in jeopardy.”

The SEC’s complaint charges Quiros, Stenger, Jay Peak, and a company owned by Quiros called Q Resorts Inc. as well as seven limited partnerships and their general partner companies with violating the antifraud provisions of Section 17(a) of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 10(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and Rule 10b-5.  Four other companies are named as relief defendants in the SEC’s complaint for the purpose of recovering investor funds transferred into their accounts.  The SEC seeks preliminary and permanent injunctions, financial penalties, and disgorgement of ill-gotten gains plus interest.  The agency also seeks conduct-based injunctive relief against Quiros and Stenger along with an officer-and-director bar against Quiros.

The SEC’s investigation was conducted by Brian Theophilus James, Trisha D. Sindler, Michelle Lama, and Mark Dee, and the case was supervised by Chedly C. Dumornay of the Miami Regional Office.  The SEC’s litigation will be led by Christopher Martin and Robert K. Levenson of the Miami office.  The SEC appreciates the assistance of the Office of the Vermont Attorney General and other authorities in Vermont.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

Holly shit!!!!!!


----------



## vermonter44 (Apr 14, 2016)

Damn


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

HOLY SHIT! It is as bad as it could have been. :-(


----------



## farlep99 (Apr 14, 2016)

For those hoping for a perp walk, keep in mind that SEC has no criminal authority. Typical punishments are fines and sanctions which could no doubt cripple a business. However, if it is determined that criminal activity is afoot in the course of an SEC investigation, referrals for prosecution to state and/or Feds can happen. This is why SEC investigations are almost always a 'coordinated effort' with a state


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

Well - might be selling both resort to pay back 200 million plus interest. How much do you think Jay Peak is worth, going to say no where near what they will need to raise. LOL


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

think I will keep holding off on that pass purchase.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Holy crap. That's way worse than I was expecting.  Way worse.


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

> *in Ponzi-like fashion, money from investors in later projects was  misappropriated *to fund deficits in earlier projects.  *More than $200  million was allegedly used for other-than-stated purposes, including $50  million spent on Quiros’s personal expenses* and in other ways never  disclosed to investors.
> 
> According to the SEC’s complaint, Quiros improperly tapped investor  funds for such things as the purchase of a luxury condominium, payment  of his income taxes and other taxes unrelated to the investments, and  acquisition of an unrelated ski resort.
> 
> ...



Everyone who doubted me over the last several years may now officially suck it.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez wins beers for being so right about this debacle that it makes me sick.

Note: I was writing this before you started your victory lap :beer:


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 14, 2016)

Its even WORSE than BenedictGomez said!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

http://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-69.html


Good bye Ary, you thief!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

I can't believe how close some of us on this site were.....even down to the Ponzi mention........smelled like rotten fish for a long time......

This is unbelievable.

I thought Q was a dink but wow, what a friggin' snake POS


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

I would say that Ary is the least of the problems now facing Burke Mountain. Talk about barking up the wrong tree. You think snow making was bad this past year - wait until next season. I wouldn't expect a dime spent at either resort. Any profits the owners make will be going to payoff their fines and not being reinvested into the business.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Its even WORSE than BenedictGomez said!



Not really.  I'd say I pretty much had the perfect bracket.    

Just need the Federal Indictment to be officially filed and I've batted 1000, but that's all just a formality now.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Everyone who doubted me over the last several years may now officially suck it.



Hat is off to you!


----------



## xlr8r (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Everyone who doubted me over the last several years may now officially suck it.



I may not post in this thread much, but I could see something like this coming 5 years ago.  It was always a ponzi scheme.  There was never an end game in sight for Quiros and Stenger.  no way Jay Peak would ever be profitable enough to repay investors 100s of millions of dollars.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Everyone who doubted me over the last several years may now officially suck it.



Exactly....we had a strong core of Ponzi sniffers here......


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-69.html
> 
> 
> Good bye Ary, you thief!!!!!!!!!!



I'm confused, why are you call Ary a thief???


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

Talking about it on Vermont NPR stations right now as well. This is going to get bigger and bigger.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Did anyone else pick up on the allegation that the Burke ski area was purchased using EB-5 money?

Didn't Ary insist that his family had invested a lot of money in the ski area?  I guess that's technically true... He just didn't say where that money came from.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

When does this damn conf begin?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Did anyone else pick up on the allegation that the Burke ski area was purchased using EB-5 money?
> 
> Didn't Ary insist that his family had invested a lot of money in the ski area?  I guess that's technically true... He just didn't say where that money came from.



Right, and Daddy used the money to buy himself luxury goods.  Good riddance thieves!!!!


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not really.  I'd say I pretty much had the perfect bracket.
> 
> Just need the Federal Indictment to be officially filed and I've batted 1000, but that's all just a formality now.



Yes, you are a home run hitter on this one!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Might be time for the SEC to pay Quiros Sr. a little, _"we just want to make sure you're still here"_ visit too, for that matter.



This post I made a week ago is especially relevant now.    Does anyone know where Papa Q is?  

Prison is where he's going, but they need to locate him first.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Did anyone else pick up on the allegation that the Burke ski area was purchased using EB-5 money?
> 
> Didn't Ary insist that his family had invested a lot of money in the ski area?  I guess that's technically true... He just didn't say where that money came from.



It does seem like that is the what they are saying.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm reading through the complaint now.  

First interesting fact: It is alleged that over HALF of the money raised through EB-5 was inappropriately used.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

Also, Leahy's comments about EB-5 yesterday now fit perfectly into the definition of "loathsome disingenuous politician".


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm reading through the complaint now.
> 
> First interesting fact: It is alleged that over HALF of the money raised through EB-5 was inappropriately used.



Link please?


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

VPR is covering this for the next few hours, just said they've actually moved some programming around so they can talk about all this, for anyone driving around the state like myself.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Next interesting allegation is from paragraph 6 of the complaint:

"The most recent project,for which the Defendants continue to raise money from unwitting investors, purports to be for a nearby $110 million biomedical research center that the Defendants have operated as neaxly a complete fraud."


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

> This is an emergency action the Commission is bringing to stop an ongoing, massive eight year fraudulent scheme in which the Miami owner and the chief executive of a Vermont ski resort have systematically looted more than $50 million. Quiros and William Stengex, the president and CEO of Jay Peak, are primarily responsible for the fraudulent scheme.



Looks like Stenger's going to jail too.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Link please?


http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-69.pdf


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Remember yesterday when Ary said that the "truth would come out?"  He was right!!!


----------



## Sons of Thunder (Apr 14, 2016)

I wonder if this will have ramifications for the EB-5 program in general. People at Mt. Snow must be pissed to hear this news.


----------



## nek_crumudgeon (Apr 14, 2016)

It's not implied, it's clear. Sorry for the bad pdf to html copy and paste job

 As described below, *Quiros improperly used approximately $7 million for a margin loan backed by investor rands to purchase Q Burke.* Hesubsequently used approximately $18.2 million of Biomedical Phase VII investor funds as partof the $19 million pay off of this margin Loan. Without any legitimate basis, Q Burke receivedinvestors' proceeds emanating fi•orn the Defendalzts' securities fraud.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> "The most recent project,for which the Defendants continue to raise money from unwitting investors, purports to be for* a nearby $110 million biomedical research center that the Defendants have operated as neaxly a complete fraud."*



Golly, I wonder who ever would have thought that a major biomedical plant in the middle of nowhere, ostensibly to create highly medically risky and scientifically speculative products that aren't even FDA approved, could have been anything less than totally plausible?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Remember yesterday when Ary said that the "truth would come out?"  He was right!!!



I'm sure that his Land Rover is compliments of EB-5 investors!  What a joke!  He can just leave the keys with the SEC folks at their new office in East Burke.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Heading #6: 
"THE DEFENDANTS FRAUDULENTLY USED INVESTOR FUNDS TO FINANCE QUIROS' PURCHASE OF JAY PEAK"

Jay Peak sold for $25.7 million.

As an aside, the federal government has the worst OCR for a PDF that I have ever seen!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

> Defendants routinely violated these provisions when they misused, misappropriated, and *commingled investor funds from the different projects*. Instead of using investor funds as described in the use of proceeds documents, the *Defendants frequently had investor funds flowing in a circular and roundabout manner among various accounts and entities, which allowed them to misuse acid misappropriate investor funds. *



Hence the many, many Q-LLC companies.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Paragraph 136: Around April 2015, Quiros transferred approximately $10.7 million of Biomedical Phase VII investor funds as collateral for the personal line of credit, He subsequently used the line to pay approximately $6 million of his personal taxes *(he funneled the payment through GSI)*, approximately $3.5 million to Stateside Phase VI construction vendors,  and approximately $1.4 million of purported returns to investors in PhasesIII-VI.


Hmm... Weren't we just talking about how odd it was that GSI, LLC didn't start with a "Q" - and how that was a major red flag?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

This BFP livestream is unbearable.  Constantly buffering.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

How long did these idiots think they could go on like this?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> This BFP livestream is unbearable.  Constantly buffering.


Go to WCAX


http://www.wcax.com/story/24396596/watch-live-coverage-onwcaxcom


----------



## nek_crumudgeon (Apr 14, 2016)

Heh. 

4. The Trump Place Luxury Condominium137. On April 12, 2013, Quiros transferred $3 million in Biomedical Phase VIIinvestor funds to GSI. Six weeks later, on May 30, 2013, he used $2.2 million of that money tobuy a luxury condominium at Trump Place in New York City.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Paragraph 139: To attempt to cover up their extensive misappropriation and misuse of investor funds, the Biomedical Please VII Defendants have misrepresented to State of Vermont regulators how they have been spending investor funds.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

Back up a couple of minutes and that helps.


----------



## nek_crumudgeon (Apr 14, 2016)

Burke Mountain Resort
138. Q Burke is the owner of the Burke Mountain Resort, a ski resort in East Burke,
Vermont, which is the site of another EB-5 offering that Quiros is promoting called Q Burke
Mountain Resort. Quiros and Stenger are trying to raise $98 million from the Q Burke EB-5
offering, and to date have raised approximately $53 million. As described above, Quiros
improperly used approximately $7 million from the last margin loan (collateralized by investor
funds) to purchase Q Burke. He subsequently used approximately $18.2 million of Biomedical
Phase VII investor funds as part of the $19 million day off of this margin loan (to replace in part
the fiends he had spent to buy Q Burke).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Holy Shit spaghetti map!


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

Holy crap that chart is pure ponzi like a text book


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Paragraph 136: Around April 2015, Quiros transferred approximately $10.7 million of Biomedical Phase VII investor funds as collateral for the personal line of credit, He subsequently used the line to pay approximately $6 million of his personal taxes *(he funneled the payment through GSI)*, approximately $3.5 million to Stateside Phase VI construction vendors,  and approximately $1.4 million of purported returns to investors in PhasesIII-VI.
> 
> Hmm... *Weren't we just talking about how odd it was that GSI, LLC didn't start with a "Q" - and how that was a major red flag? *






BenedictGomez said:


> Well, I can tell you exactly when the "denial" stage should have ended even for the most hopeful believers.
> 
> *The day when it became known that the guy who brands everything with his  name, even organic farm stands, opened a nondescript shell company  called GSI (i.e. not Quiros Real Estate Ventures) and bought land for $3M, then sold it back to his EB-5 group for $6M about a year later.*
> 
> The "bringing hope and opportunity" to the NEK story should have ended for all that day.



Never a good idea to start illegal ventures with your name.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

The press conference:  http://www.wcax.com/story/24396596/watch-live-coverage-onwcaxcom

The chart they just showed, and you are commenting on, is simply sickening.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2016)

So does Q senior end up in jail is my question


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> So does Q senior end up in jail is my question



Obviously.

Still waiting for the details on where he is.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

_



*"This is not a simple bank robbery, this is a very complex and massive fraud"*

Click to expand...


_No, it's really NOT that complex.  

What makes it complex is that there were YEARS of absolutely no financial scrutiny, so now you have an auditing mess of massive scope due to Vermont's complete incompetence.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


>



Reminds me of Family Circus.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

No criminal case, no jail.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

SEC filing states fraud began in June of 2008.

Have fun untangling this mess auditors.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> *I'm sure they know more than Q Jr :razz:



Most people with a modicum of common sense, know more! :wink:


----------



## freeski (Apr 14, 2016)

If this massive fraud is proven the people who set it up will get at least 10 years.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

Reporter's question:



> *This has been going on for 8 years, why did it take the state so long to figure out what was going on?*



ROFLMAO

And this question comes about 2 minutes after the State of Vermont rep today AGAIN states that EB-5 money is safest in Vermont because "the government" is in charge of the oversight.  This REALLY just happened!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> SEC filing states fraud began in June of 2008.
> 
> Have fun untangling this mess auditors.



Yep, it goes alllllll the way back to the beginning. 
Who was that company (some financial management company if I remember correctly) that broke ties with the Jay Peak projects soon after they started building stuff up there? Citing financial shenanigans.
THAT should have been the canary in the coal mine for the state.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Watching the live stream... Shumlin is in FULL damage control mode.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

So the Burke Hotel remains in limbo. It is not under receivership yet.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

And to fully beat on a dead horse that I keep brigning up every few months, I hope the SEC is investigating State of Vermont employee Brent Raymond as well.

     I only see two plausible explanations for his behavior:

1) He's in on the fraud and was paid off in some way.
2) He's completely incompetent and a total moron, who should never have had his position.

I'd say it's a coin-toss between #1 & #2, though I'm leaning towards #2.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yep, it goes alllllll the way back to the beginning.
> Who was that company (some financial management company if I remember correctly) that broke ties with the Jay Peak projects soon after they started building stuff up there? Citing financial shenanigans.
> THAT should have been the canary in the coal mine for the state.



That would be Rapid USA Visas.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

The state officials look like fools when you realize that it was the SEC that actually stepped in and got something done.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yep, it goes alllllll the way back to the beginning.
> Who was that company (some financial management company if I remember correctly) that broke ties with the Jay Peak projects soon after they started building stuff up there? Citing financial shenanigans.
> THAT should have been the canary in the coal mine for the state.



Rapid USA Visas.

Yes, that was just one of the HUGE warning signs (for everyone except State of Vermont), Rapid USA Visas had nothing to gain and tons of $$$ to lose by ending the relationship with Jay Peak.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Burke resort was purchased fraudulently using re-routed EB5 funds so it is under receivership. 

The hotel has been on the "up and up" since it was closely overseen by the state so it is currently not under receivership (for now).


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

Well this explains why Shummy started to not show up on the Stenger/Q cocktail and dirt throwing circuits....


----------



## Sons of Thunder (Apr 14, 2016)

How it feels to join this fine board, just in time to witness shtf at Burke. And the question no one seems to be asking...are the lifts at Jay running?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Watching the live stream... *Shumlin is in FULL damage control mode.*



Blaming it on "the private sector", after years of noting how "safe" EB-5 is in Vermont because it's under "government" regulation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm wondering if my Pump House Water Park family summer pass we will be any good.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

Love the venom in the reporters questions.....feels like I'm asking some of these questions......lol


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

The "Active Flow of Funds" chart really is amazing.


----------



## River19 (Apr 14, 2016)

So if you are Stenger.....you flying back?  Lol,

wow....Shummy walks away when asked about releasing his emails....

Debacle......"smoking hole in the ground in Newport"......

Honestly, it sounds like within a year Burke Mountain could be in a much better place......


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

The governor refused to answer whether or not he would release all of his emails in this matter.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Shumlin got the hell out just before a reporter asked about releasing his emails containing communications on the subject.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Honestly, it sounds like within a year Burke Mountain could be in a much better place......



Well it couldn't have gotten much worse


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well it couldn't have gotten much worse



Sure it could. It may take years to straighten out this mess. Do you think the receiver will be making any capital investments?


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 14, 2016)

So much for daddy Q firing Ary to fix the problems at Burke.   I sure hope the ski area survives this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> *Shumlin got the hell out just before a reporter asked about releasing his emails *containing communications on the subject.



Shumlin needs to have a conveniently timed "harddrive crash" like Hillary Clinton and her two subordinates did post-Benghazi.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Anyone who cares about Burke mtn should be glad that the hotel is finished.  With a 1/2 finished shell it would be NELSAP for sure.



DoublePlanker said:


> So much for daddy Q firing Ary to fix the problems at Burke.   I sure hope the ski area survives this.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Anyone who cares about Burke mtn should be glad that the hotel is finished.  With a 1/2 finished shell it would be NELSAP for sure.



This is true. With two detachable lifts and a new hotel it has much more value. I don't know what kind of operation to expect now though.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Anyone who cares about Burke mtn should be glad that the hotel is finished.  With a 1/2 finished shell it would be NELSAP for sure.


Which is why the state let the project continue until completion (under "close" supervision).


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Sure it could. It may take years to straighten out this mess. Do you think the receiver will be making any capital investments?



I think that's right, and also, it proves that jay/burke can't sustain the facilities built so maintaining them will be difficult.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

I guess Ary was wrong when he said that we would see that they were doing everything correctly.  Guess not!!!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I think that's right, and also, it proves that jay/burke can't sustain the facilities built so maintaining them will be difficult.



Disagreed.  The money meant for these projects was being diverted.  The projects did not fail because they were not sustainable.  Granted though that the AnCBio was a complete joke on multiple levels.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> So much for daddy Q firing Ary to fix the problems at Burke.   I sure hope the ski area survives this.


Ary Jr was kept on because dad knew he was completely inept and/or he could trust him to not blow the whistle on the Ponzi scheme.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Shumlin got the hell out just before a reporter asked about releasing his emails containing communications on the subject.



Exactly.  He knows nothing!







I mean who is this nice guy that gave him and his party over $30,000 in contributions?  I bet that was EB-5 money!!!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Ary Jr was kept on because dad knew he was completely inept and/or he could trust him to not blow the whistle on the Ponzi scheme.



Prediction:  the feds split Q and Stenger.  They get Stenger to rat on Q.  Q goes away.  I want to believe that Stenger got caught up in this and was not the brains behind the scam.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

In other news.....

I guess I'm never going to turn my $1.98 investment in qburkeresort.com and qburkemountainresort.com into a profit.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> In other news.....
> 
> I guess I'm never going to turn my $1.98 investment in qburkeresort.com and qburkemountainresort.com into a profit.



That is my favorite part! The end of the Q is in sight!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Prediction:  the feds split Q and Stenger.  They get Stenger to rat on Q.  Q goes away.  I want to believe that Stenger got caught up in this and was not the brains behind the scam.


I think they waited until Bill was back in the country before executing the "raid"?

As much as I think Bill had good intentions at the beginning, I think he is in deeper than we would like to admit here. Although Ariel is obviously the organizer of the scheme.


----------



## nek_crumudgeon (Apr 14, 2016)

I hadn't read this yet:

Outside company managing Jay Peak, Q Burke


Posted: Apr 14, 2016 7:17 AM PDT
Updated: Apr 14, 2016 9:18 AM PDT
By Kyle MiduraCONNECT


By Roger GarrityCONNECT

JAY, Vt. -
The Jay Peak and Q Burke resorts are now under the management of an outside company as federal and state investigators look into the company's financial dealings.


An email to Jay Peak says the Securities and Exchange Commission has appointed Leisure Hotels and Resorts, a Kansas City company, to oversee management of the Vermont ski resorts until further notice. The email from Jay's communications director says Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros remain as owners of the company, but have "no authority" to conduct business there.


That email also confirms the investigation relates to EB-5, the federal visa program that has brought hundreds of millions of dollars to the Northeast Kingdom for investments in the ski resorts and other projects there.


----------



## doublediamond (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The "Active Flow of Funds" chart really is amazing.



Where's that?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Prediction:  the feds split Q and Stenger.  They get Stenger to rat on Q.  Q goes away.*  I want to believe that Stenger got caught up in this and was not the brains behind the scam.*



Stenger's definitely not the brains, but he's implicated in the fraud.  

What's interesting about the read, is it's unclear how Stenger enriched himself, whereas with Quiros it's laid out with specifics. 

 It's possible they're taking it easy on him initially for reasons you mention and they want/need his cooperation, or it's possible they haven't connected all the dots back to Stenger yet, but it's clear Stenger's dirty too.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Where's that?


It was from the press conference
Screenshot:


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

problem:  management company will not want to invest to rebrand "Q Burke" back to some like Burke Mountain Resort.

SO- do we have to crowd fund that?  shouldn't be hard.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

Someone is actually defending Ary on the FoB page.  I think we will find out that he got some $$$$ from Daddy for things that came from illegitimate sources.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Stenger is either dirty, or stupid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> problem:  management company will not want to invest to rebrand "Q Burke" back to some like Burke Mountain Resort.
> 
> SO- do we have to crowd fund that?  shouldn't be hard.



Just do what they did in 2000 and put some frickin plywood over logos!  Just cut off the tail of the Q!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm telling my woman to stop paying off her VSAC loans.  It will be 2134 before Vermont figures it out.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> *Stenger is either dirty, or stupid.*



100% Dirty.

If you read the full SEC report, there's no way Stenger didn't know what he was doing was wrong.  

Keep in mind also, he was also co-stonewaller all through this matter.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 14, 2016)

Is this how vail enters the east coast market?

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 14, 2016)

snoseek said:


> Is this how vail enters the east coast market?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk



Why would Vail buy Burke?
I don't see them having interest in Jay Peak either.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/sites/de.... Quiros et. al. COMPLAINT SIGNED & FILED.pdf


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

I wonder if this will stay on schedule at Jay?

https://www.pca.org/porsche-parade


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

snoseek said:


> *Is this how vail enters the east coast market?*



I was thinking that myself. 

  It makes much more sense for SKIS though, problem is, SKIS just suffered a terrible season and is cash-strapped.  Then again, if they could acquire Jay Peak on the cheap at distressed levels......you never know.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Why would Vail buy Burke?



Nobody will want Burke.  

 Which is why, my guess is Vermont will push for a conditional acquisition of _BOTH _resorts as a requirement for purchase.


----------



## WWF-VT (Apr 14, 2016)

_
Spent $2.2 million to purchase a Trump Place condominium for Quiros in New York_

Quiros living large in NYC FTW !


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

This is nuts!


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

which would you rather have-  Burke (2 new lifts and medium sized hotel with established summer activities nearby) or Saddleback( better terrain, more snow, more condo owners, lifts suck)


----------



## mister moose (Apr 14, 2016)

An important difference for ongoing health of Jay and Burke is the how the receiver will operate the resorts.  They have no local experience or knowledge,and are professionals at plain uninspired management.  They do not have a stake or interest in making it succeed.  They are only charged with exercising normal fiduciary possession and operation.  This  means very conservative operation, and extrication of their receivership fees, regardless of the revenue generated by the resort.  An important difference at Burke is their fees could exceed earnings.  The resort may not be in better shape in the years they have control.  There may be no investment in snowmaking infrastructure, as there is no certain return.

My personal guess on Stenger is he was the boiled frog in this, and Quiros lit the fire.  They are both in hot water.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Prediction:  the feds split Q and Stenger.  They get Stenger to rat on Q.  Q goes away.  I want to believe that Stenger got caught up in this and was not the brains behind the scam.



I think that this is VERY likely if there are criminal indictments.  The SEC filed their case in Miami.  That ought to tell you who they see as the problem.  

Even if Stenger rats he could see the inside of a jail cell.  The allegations are that bad.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 14, 2016)

This is so entertaining! Such drama in the ski business!  Sad for the people that are unemployed from this though.  There shouod be some funding from this mess for them.

I think that Jr did not know and/or understand this whole thing.  Yes, he did benefit from it but i think he was pawn in the game for his Dad and Stenger.  I actually have a small amount of sympathy for him because he was doing what he was told and not what he wanted.


----------



## xwhaler (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> which would you rather have-  Burke (2 new lifts and medium sized hotel with established summer activities nearby) or Saddleback( better terrain, more snow, more condo owners, lifts suck)



It's an interesting debate and I won't derail this thread but other than the Rangeley the lifts are all fairly new and don;t suck at the 'Back.
The terrain at SB is vastly superior to Burke but access is easier at Burke not to mention the hotel. 
Don't sell Rangeley short however....for my $ it is the premier 4 season destination in New England with loads of established activities.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

tumbler said:


> This is so entertaining! Such drama in the ski business!  Sad for the people that are unemployed from this though.  There shouod be some funding from this mess for them.
> 
> I think that Jr did not know and/or understand this whole thing.  Yes, he did benefit from it but i think he was pawn in the game for his Dad and Stenger.  I actually have a small amount of sympathy for him because he was doing what he was told and not what he wanted.



This is a strong possibility. His role was not to ask too many questions or blow the whistle on daddy. That is why he could never do anything or be fired. It would create even bigger problems.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> which would you rather have-  Burke (2 new lifts and medium sized hotel with established summer activities nearby) or Saddleback( better terrain, more snow, more condo owners, lifts suck)



All you need to do at Burke is bring back the rental compressors, and you would be killing it. That should help fund what remains to be fixed upgraded.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> All you need to do at Burke is bring back the rental compressors, and you would be killing it. That should help fund what remains to be fixed upgraded.



:lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

William Kelly should be getting very nervous right now.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that this is VERY likely if there are criminal indictments.  The SEC filed their case in Miami.  That ought to tell you who they see as the problem.
> 
> Even if Stenger rats he could see the inside of a jail cell.  The allegations are that bad.



The SEC complaint seems to have a lot of carve outs for Stenger. Like not freezing his assets. Bet he flips on Q. VT has a parallel complaint also. 

Ary probably working like hell on his resume, citing his strong leadership skills.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> All you need to do at Burke is bring back the rental compressors, and you would be killing it. That should help fund what remains to be fixed upgraded.



How long will it be until Jay and Q get a new owner? Are we talking about this new Kansas group trying to operate the mountain(s) next winter? Wonder if say Vail or Powdr(not a chance in hell Peak does anything) came out and showed interest in taking over this summer, could they?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

We now know why there was a huge PR effort the last two weeks by Q.

Wonder if folks are still standing with Q now?  Anyone other than his defense attorneys?  Hello?  Buehler?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

There will not be a quick resolution, this will probably drag out for a few years.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I give Burke about a 25% chance of operating next winter.  There is no way that the receiver is going to believe that it can operate in the black.  The best chance is for a buyer to stop forward.

I'm actually glad that Ary Jr. was not fired last spring.  Now there is no scapegoat.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2016)

If powdr or boyne bought jay and Burke and max passes them, I am a happy man


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> There will not be a quick resolution, this will probably drag out for a few years.



I fully expect Leisure Hotels and Resorts to manage Jay Peak and Burke for a few years till they figure out who owns what exactly.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I am reading through the state complaint now.  There is an interesting line.  It refers to some statements that Stenger has made "under oath."  I wonder when he provided sworn testimony?????


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm willing to bet the amount a condo can fetch has dropped at least 30% based on this news alone.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The best chance is for a buyer to stop forward.



How the hell do you sell a resort when you don't even know exactly who owns it now that we've learned that it was fraudulently bought with EB5 money ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

From the Complaint regarding AnCBio:



> The first six projects for which the Defendants xaised money were all part of a ski
> resort and accompanying facilities located clear Jay, Vcrmant. The most recent project, for
> which the Defendants continue to raise money from unwitting investors, purports to be for a
> nearby $110 million biomedical research center that the Defendants have operated as neaxly a
> ...



http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-69.pdf


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I am reading through the state complaint now.  There is an interesting line.  It refers to some statements that Stenger has made "under oath."  I wonder when he provided sworn testimony?????



I just answered my own question.  The testimony was given to the SEC.


----------



## SLoMo (Apr 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> How the hell do you sell a resort when you don't even know exactly who owns it now that we've learned that it was fraudulently bought with EB5 money ?



I was just thinking about this. So, if Q bought it fraudulently with money that wasn't his to use, then wouldn't his purchase be null and void? Does the property then belong to the state? Just wondering, but if so might not be a bad thing at some point for the NEK'ers looking to co-op the resort.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> The terrain at SB is vastly superior to Burke..l.



It is?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

Cant wait for the Jay Peak / Burke episode to come out in a few years.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

SLoMo said:


> I was just thinking about this. So, if Q bought it fraudulently with money that wasn't his to use, then wouldn't his purchase be null and void? Does the property then belong to the state? Just wondering, but if so might not be a bad thing at some point for the NEK'ers looking to co-op the resort.



I think it belongs to the EB5 investors, somehow.

The answer is somewhere in the bowl of spaghetti.


----------



## SLoMo (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think it belongs to the EB5 investors, somehow.
> 
> The answer is somewhere in the bowl of spaghetti.



I thought that at first, however the purchasing contracts they sign are for a specific entity and project, that if unfinished, they lose rights to, no? So would the state be at that bottom of the bowl then?


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 14, 2016)

Well, at least they will have an excuse to delay the West Bowl project for another 20 years.

I too am wondering if I should still buy a season pass for Jay next year? Deadline  is May 9 for the early bird pricing. I can pay in Canadian money, which  makes it a pretty good deal right now. Hmmm.

Good reporting AZers, this thread has been a great resource for keeping up with this crazy story.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm willing to bet the amount a condo can fetch has dropped at least 30% based on this news alone.



Was just talking to a friend about this....


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Well, at least they will have an excuse to delay the West Bowl project for another 20 years.
> 
> I too am wondering if I should still buy a season pass for Jay next year? Deadline  is May 9 for the early bird pricing. I can pay in Canadian money, which  makes it a pretty good deal right now. Hmmm.
> 
> Good reporting AZers, this thread has been a great resource for keeping up with this crazy story.



I think Jay will some how be open....burke I would worry about.  Obviously, I really don't know anything about how these things work, but Jay just seems like a much better asset, so a more likely grab should the govt. put it up for sale at the end of this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> I too am wondering if I should still buy a season pass for Jay next year? Deadline  is May 9 for the early bird pricing. I can pay in Canadian money, which  makes it a pretty good deal right now. Hmmm.


Purchase if you can stomach risk.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Sounds like Steve Wright is running the show at Jay. He knows what he is doing. Buying a pass there is probably pretty safe.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Paragraph 142 of the State's complaint: 
"GSI then sold seven acres of land to the AnC Bio Limited Partnership for $6 million.  An independent appraisal obtained by the SEC estimated the value of the seven acres of land sold to be $620,000."


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

As far as Q Burke, the difficult part is the resort was purchased with EB-5 investor money. However, those investors either are part of an LP on the stateside projects or part of the original investors who's LP was dissolved by Steiger. Some or all of them may not want anything to do with the Q Burke Resort. I personally would not want to take my money out of a Jay Peak entity and put it into a failing ski area. The hotel is a completely different company and those investors are being someone protected by the state oversight. Of course their return on investment is dependent on the hotel opening and the ski resort running. I wonder if this is going to turn out like Ascutney with a closed ski area and a hotel operated independently.


----------



## Mojo K (Apr 14, 2016)

A little off topic, but weather this weekend looks perfect...there's a bike race this weekend...Kingdom Trails will open soon...and we'll have the patio open at the Foggy Goggle Saturday ( I think Mike is a couple weeks out ?) All of us doing business here in East Burke thank you all for all the support we've had while the mountain has suffered. Hope to see you soon.


----------



## wtcobb (Apr 14, 2016)

Some nice transparency in posts on Jay's facebook page:

Sorry we took a few extra minutes reaching out folks.  As you may  have heard, we here at Jay Peak will be working with Leisure Hotels and  Resorts (LHR) to continue managing Jay Peak same as it ever was.   Current ownership is working with state and federal officials  surrounding their ongoing investigation relative to the EB5 Foreign  Investment Program.  That process is distinct and not connected to the  day to day operations of the mountain, indoor waterpark, golf course,  lodging or any of our amenities that  continue to be available on a daily basis here.  Our longtime CMO Steve  Wright has recently been named General Manager and he, along with LHR  will be responsible for the day to day operations of the resort.  
  We are anticipating our busiest summer on record with music,  conferences, almost 70 weddings and a host of other business segments  and we look forward to keeping on.  It is an awkward time for us on the  ground as well and we appreciate you giving us some room to figure all  of this out.  We will absolutely keep you in the loop as this takes more  shape and appreciate your support as we move toward a much more  sustainable future.  We will be operating for skiing and riding this  week and through the weekend with Ski School reopening for Sat. April  16th and have decided to continue operations through next week, weather  permitting on both sides of the mountain, through the 24th.  We’ll take a  look at conditions thereafter and make a call about going for May.
 Again, thanks so much- we appreciate your support more than you know.




Replies to the comments are also very upfront about the situation. Obvious optimism and PR spin here, but not shying away from the bad news either. A well-handled post, IMO.


----------



## wtcobb (Apr 14, 2016)

Other convo from Jay: 



> Didn't  mean to be obtuse there Andrew sorry.  The SEC has appointed LHR to run  the resort with Steve (Wright).  Personal assets of Bill and Ariel are  frozen, they are still considered the owners and are working with State  and federal officials-they just don't have any day to day management  authority.





> Thanks  Erik.  We can definitely understand how people are upset and confused.   At some level, we are as well.  Hope springs eternal though.


----------



## wtcobb (Apr 14, 2016)

I wouldn't count on financial improvements from LHR:

http://www.leisurehotel.com/services/distressed-asset-management/

A similar holding company for distressed assets (albeit different vertical) bought out EMS. That's turned out well...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Here is the editorial that ran in the April 7th Caledonian Record:

*Standing With Burke*

A rash of recent headlines suggest serious trouble for the various EB-5 development initiatives of Bill Stenger and Ari Quiros.

As we wrote in a February comment:

The new hotel and conference center at Burke Mountain is ready to open after recently receiving state Certificates of Occupancy.

But unpaid bills to general contractor Jerry Davis are keeping doors to the impressive new facility closed.

Grand openings have been repeatedly delayed as developer Bill Stenger has dealt with never-ending series of setbacks. Those headaches have exacerbated the financial torment of a calamitous lack of snow and visitors this winter.

Meanwhile a whole bunch of local people anxiously await the possibility of new jobs and opportunities at the mountain.

The problem started two years ago when a small handful of foreign investors complained to the state after experiencing some buyer’s remorse. They weren’t complaining about their newly minted green cards - the crown jewel of the EB-5 program - just that they suddenly believed the totally legitimate, above-board deal they willingly signed should somehow be made sweeter.

They got upset when Bill Stenger and Ari Quiros dissolved “Jay Peak Hotel Suites, LP,” the legal entity created to build the resort’s Tram Haus lodge. With the move, 35 limited partners (each who invested $500,000) lost investor status. In exchange, they got promissory notes, backed by the value of the resort.

The state of Vermont’s EB-5 Regional Center, as one might expect from a state agency dealing with complex issues, pretty much had no idea what was going on. They looked totally foolish when their advice to the disgruntled investors was essentially “call Bill Stenger… he’s such a great guy.”

The investors were confused. Vermont’s highest ranking pols (Governor Peter Shumlin, Senators Patrick Leahy and Bernie Sanders, and Rep. Peter Welch) were crawling over each other to take credit for Stenger and Quiros’ successes. So how was it, with such a suddenly high profile program, that Vermont’s only regulatory body appeared to be no more than glorified cheerleaders?

Well if there’s one thing bureaucrats and politicians hate, it’s being outed as buffoons. The political class, few of whom have ever built companies or created jobs, started whispering about fraud, corruption, conspiracy, ponzi schemes, dirty capitalists, end-of-the-world, etc. And the way they always deal with that kind of thing is to invent ways to show the world how tough, smart and useful they can be.

Typically that spells death for free enterprise.

The state made a couple of statutory changes and focused its vast, taxpayer-funded focus and energy into regulating Stenger, et al. That meant that the men who created thousands of jobs, and on whose coattails Governor Shumlin rode so boastfully for years, suddenly had to answer to a handful of pencil-pushers before they could write checks or tie their shoes.

No big surprise… with their hands tied, Stenger and Quiros have since been beset by headaches, setbacks and delays.

The biggest irony? The foreign investors who turned to the state years ago because they “lost confidence” in Stenger and Vermont’s ability to control him, were really just looking for ways to safeguard their money. By summoning the “power” of the state, those pigeonhearts put otherwise solid investments into serious jeopardy.

We didn’t think there were “guarantees” in the investment world. We thought it worked like this: do your homework, pick a strong company, caveat emptor, and place your bets.

For our money, we would have stuck with the guys who turned an obscure federal program into $650 million in local investments over Montpelier desk-jockeys who’ve never created anything in their lives.

Not everyone agrees with us. We still hear a lot of people calling Stenger and Quiros ponzi schemers who were under-capitalized and have nobody to blame but themselves. Those folks tend to hold the state faultless in handicapping area projects in the 11th hour.

We simply don’t understand that thinking. The Northeast Kingdom is home to 18 of the 25 poorest towns in Vermont, according to a recent paper by renowned economist Art Woolf. Barring anything illegal, it’s in everyone’s interest that these projects succeed. That’s less likely to happen if people continue to root against wannabe job creators and defend the bureaucrats steadfast on sabotaging progress.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 14, 2016)

I doubt whether Jay operations will be effected much except for some customer apprehention/cancelations.Everybody involved wants Jay to still run as it has.It serves nobody for Jay to be shut down or severly injured.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the editorial that ran in the April 7th Caledonian Record:



Whoever wrote that is a simpleton moron. 

They don't just have egg on their face, the entire chicken coop landed on their face.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

I find it very hard to believe how Ary can now remain at the helm.  His Dad is in serious trouble.  Ary needs to pack up and move now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I find it very hard to believe how Ary can now remain at the helm.  His Dad is in serious trouble.  Ary needs to pack up and move now.



He can't.  The receiver isn't that stupid.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 14, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I doubt whether Jay operations will be effected much except for some customer apprehention/cancelations.Everybody involved wants Jay to still run as it has.It serves nobody for Jay to be shut down or severly injured.



I would think that the operating company might have a tighter budget.  If Jay operations are truly profitable, then likely nothing to worry about.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Never, never bet against the stupidity of someone in that business.  I have had several vendors go chapter 7 over the years and had bankruptcy receivers/trusstees do things that were so far beyond stupid as to be criminal.  In one case we had to go to the judge and my attorney told her that the trustee refused to release goods that were 100% paid in full, although the work was not finished.  The judge asked the trustee why, and his response was that he felt we needed the goods enough that we would pay more than the contract amount.  The judge then explained to the trustee (an attorney) that her court was not in the extortion business.



VTKilarney said:


> He can't.  The receiver isn't that stupid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

The full press conference:

http://www.wcax.com/story/31725401/...y-peak-q-burke-owners-committed-massive-fraud


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> There will not be a quick resolution, this will probably drag out for a few years.



agreed. they used the eb5 investor money to buy Jay so this will all have to be litigated before a new owner can take over.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

And once again Vermont is proving that it is a popular place for embezzlement, fraud, etc.  So very sad.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And once again Vermont is proving that it is a popular place for embezzlement, fraud, etc.  So very sad.



c'mon, you think vermont has more fraud than other states?  please.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> c'mon, you think vermont has more fraud than other states?  please.



Seriously. Has he been to New Jersey?


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

RHODE ISLAND -- no contest.


----------



## stomachdoc (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> agreed. they used the eb5 investor money to buy Jay so this will all have to be litigated before a new owner can take over.


Such an unfortunate situation; my heart goes out to the residents of the NEK who must be very distressed by the abrupt end to a significant economic opportunity there.  I always enjoyed skiing at Burke (although haven't been there since the "Q" was added... )I wonder what plans are being made at BMA at this juncture since it's unlikely that the mountain will operate next year; these are not quickly resolved legal matters.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

My prediction (and I've been pretty damn good so far):
Federal indictments for Quiros, Stenger, William Kelly and Joel Burstein.  These people are listed in the order of "screwed," starting with the most screwed.  Kelly and Burstein will flip.  Perhaps Stenger too if they feel that they need him.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> RHODE ISLAND -- no contest.



You have a point.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

stomachdoc said:


> my heart goes out to the residents of the NEK who must be very distressed by the abrupt end to a significant economic opportunity there.


Many (most??) of the construction workers were not local.  The jobs that remained after construction were very low paying and often seasonal.  It's not as big of a hit as it may appear.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

From VTDigger:
"Meanwhile in Vermont, U.S Attorney Eric Miller said his office is investigating whether federal criminal charges should be filed. The SEC violations are civil charges, he said."


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Many (most??) of the construction workers were not local.  The jobs that remained after construction were very low paying and often seasonal.  It's not as big of a hit as it may appear.



Correct, few if any local contractors were offered jobs on the project and if they were I don't know of any that were excited to be.


----------



## 56fish (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sounds like Steve Wright is running the show at Jay. He knows what he is doing. Buying a pass there is probably pretty safe.



Been the smartest fellow there since his arrival.  Pretty damn in tune with community, too.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Anyone who steered investors to one of these projects, and got a fee for doing so, ought to be calling their insurance carrier right now.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> From VTDigger:
> "Meanwhile in Vermont, U.S Attorney Eric Miller said his office is investigating whether federal criminal charges should be filed. The SEC violations are civil charges, he said."



investigating?  seems pretty clearly criminal to me.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> investigating?  seems pretty clearly criminal to me.


There is much less of a rush for criminal charges.  The SEC needed to move more quickly because assets needed to be protected.  Give it time.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

Wall Street Journal now picking up on it...

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/04/14...like-scheme-centered-near-vermont-ski-resort/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Someone was able to snap a photo of Ary Jr. as he left work today.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 14, 2016)

So maybe now the state of New Hampshire can invade the NEK, buy Jay and Burke, rename them Cannon North and Cannon Norther-er, offer a combo pass, and then I'll move back from the MRV.


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Apr 14, 2016)

Sorry, I meant CBurke


----------



## the original trailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just do what they did in 2000 and put some frickin plywood over logos!  Just cut off the tail of the Q!



I believe many of the old signs are in storage at the Cutter Inn barn....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

You know it's Vermont when this is posted on the Friends of Burke Facebook page:



> Speaking as a businessman (and new investor in Vermont, we are setting up a manufacturing plant to build electric commuter bicycles), I would say that these two have seriously blackened the reputation of the business community. It is staggering what they have done. I have informed the governor that this will not deter me from setting up in Vermont and our plans shall continue.



What can go wrong when you locate this company in one of the most cold and rural states in the country?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So maybe now the state of New Hampshire can invade the NEK, buy Jay and Burke, rename them Cannon North and Cannon Norther-er, offer a combo pass, and then I'll move back from the MRV.



A certain industry observer, who might have gone by the handle "Threecy", just had his head explode upon reading this.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

I have not seen this link posted yet.  This is an interactive flow of funds map, rather than the static screen shot.  Being able to zoom and see all of these transactions is some place between incredible and sickening.

http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/sites/default/ext/sl/dev/full-page-funds-map.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I have not seen this link posted yet.  This is an interactive flow of funds map, rather than the static screen shot.  Being able to zoom and see all of these transactions is some place between incredible and sickening.
> 
> http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/sites/default/ext/sl/dev/full-page-funds-map.html



That was my reaction.  The audience gasped (and some laughed) at the press conference when it was revealed.  

The Complaint alleges that Stenger collected the money and "recklessly" handed it over to Q to manage.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 14, 2016)

Why was the name changed from Burke to Q Burke? So annoying.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

eatskisleep said:


> Why was the name changed from Burke to Q Burke? So annoying.



Hubris.


----------



## JDMRoma (Apr 14, 2016)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> So maybe now the state of New Hampshire can invade the NEK, buy Jay and Burke, rename them Cannon North and Cannon Norther-er, offer a combo pass, and then I'll move back from the MRV.



Now that would be a Superpass !!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Edd (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Hubris.



Perhaps the Q merchandise suddenly has value. When the QBurke name dies for good they can be worn ironically.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

Class act here by Steve:



> I'm not sure I have much of a footing to say anything in this world as I'm really not sure what's happening at Burke but will say that on behalf of all of the employees at Jay Peak, to the extent you're willing, we hope you stick with us. Internally we are troubled by all of it, more than you can possibly know, but we are equally committed to running the resort (for skiing, likely through the end of April) and across what appears to be the busiest summer we've ever seen. I'm not entirely sure what I can say, legally, but felt like I had to say something. While I know many of you (and worked with many more) there are many more still that I do not. I hope I get the opportunity to.--Steve Wright.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

And WCAX is blowing up with stories and video on this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

I have mixed feelings.  Does anyone really believe that Steve had no idea what was going on?  I'm not saying that he was part of it in any way, but he definitely stood by.  On the other hand, I have heard absolutely nothing but good things about him.  He's probably the best chance Jay Peak has right now as long as people don't associate him too much with Stenger.

It makes me nervous that the Burke hotel has not been taken into receivership.  This means that the feds have no duty whatsoever to keep it alive.  And we all know that the ski area alone is a money losing proposition.  A sale of the ski area will only work if the hotel is included.  Unfortunately, things may move more slowly for Burke than for Jay for this reason.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Class act here by Steve:



Really - wow.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 14, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I have not seen this link posted yet.  This is an interactive flow of funds map, rather than the static screen shot.  Being able to zoom and see all of these transactions is some place between incredible and sickening.
> 
> http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/sites/default/ext/sl/dev/full-page-funds-map.html



I'm getting a headache trying to look at that...


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2016)

Steve is a class act.  Had jr not been so f'ing stupid and arrogant, Steve would have been GM at Burke.  It would be a different mtn today.    nice post.




thetrailboss said:


> Class act here by Steve:


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Interesting tidbit from VTDigger:


> The SEC says it has “numerous” emails, letters, wires and telephone calls among Quiros, Stenger and the Coral Gables brokerage office."


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *Does anyone really believe that Steve had no idea what was going on?*
> 
> I'm not saying that he was part of it in any way, but he definitely stood by.



He reads this thread, so even without his working there he should have been better informed than most people.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

So earlier today there was a call-out to a certain someone.  Well, I hate to pile on, but  I seem to remember Mr. Ponzi making an appearance in the Burke thread a few years back in response to the one or two "Kool Aid" drinkers who said that all was well in Q-land.  This one is for Masskier and Big Wave Dave.  Sorry guys:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I have mixed feelings.  Does anyone really believe that Steve had no idea what was going on?  I'm not saying that he was part of it in any way, but he definitely stood by.  On the other hand, I have heard absolutely nothing but good things about him.  He's probably the best chance Jay Peak has right now as long as people don't associate him too much with Stenger.
> 
> It makes me nervous that the Burke hotel has not been taken into receivership.  This means that the feds have no duty whatsoever to keep it alive.  And we all know that the ski area alone is a money losing proposition.  A sale of the ski area will only work if the hotel is included.  Unfortunately, things may move more slowly for Burke than for Jay for this reason.



As they said today, if the Feds don't take the Hotel over, the State will and open it.  I have not doubt that it will be renamed the Shumlin Inn.  Vermonters already know that bears have a thing for him.






You two were such a great couple.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 19973



Well, it DID create jobs, right?  


(Scumbag)


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> via Imgflip Meme Maker



As I posted elsewhere, if they were a little more self aware, they would have stumbled upon this thread a while back and known a bunch of keyboard punchers with real jobs elsewhere were already putting the puzzle together.  If they were half as smart as they thought they were they would be sipping umbrella drinks on an island somewhere with a couple million to live on........

BTW, has there been any word that Stenger actually came back into the country?

Honestly, of the remaining mess, I think Jay is obviously in the best position to move on, Burke is second as the hotel is finished......the really big loser here is Newport......that is a steaming mess, literally.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)




----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

In terms of timing, the feds have clearly been after Q-sr and Bill for quite a while.  There was a ton of forensic accounting done in this investigation.  That is slow work.  My guess is that they have been at this for at least 8 months, probably 2 years.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

The state mentioned that they started work in earnest last summer.  There was a VT Digger article that mentioned that Stenger was interviewed by the SEC in May, 2014.  

So, yeah... this has been a lengthy project.

The big question for me at this point is how much money was transferred to some Caribbean island.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

Will JR have the human decency to at least not show up for work today?  Burke would be a better place if he never traversed Mtn road again.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Will JR have the human decency to at least not show up for work today?  Burke would be a better place if he never traversed Mtn road again.



My hunch is that the only reason they are allowing him to enter the building is so he can give them some information for the transition.  I don't think that you will see his Range Rover around for much longer.

Did anyone catch the post from a former employee on the Facebook page saying how he would fly his private airplane to Burlington just to work out at the gym because he didn't want to be near locals?  Unbelievable.

I also had inside information from an employee who said that he HATED the locals and made no bones about it.  Whenever he had a general manager that was not from the area, they would loudly talk about how stupid and lazy the locals were.


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> My hunch is that the only reason they are allowing him to enter the building is so he can give them some information for the transition.  I don't think that you will see his Range Rover around for much longer.
> 
> Did anyone catch the post from a former employee on the Facebook page saying how he would fly his private airplane to Burlington just to work out at the gym because he didn't want to be near locals?  Unbelievable.
> 
> I also had inside information from an employee who said that he HATED the locals and made no bones about it.  Whenever he had a general manager that was not from the area, they would loudly talk about how stupid and lazy the locals were.



You mean he would fly the investor's plane to the gym.  And drive home in the investor's Range Rover.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> You mean he would fly the investor's plane to the gym.  And drive home in the investor's Range Rover.



Something like that.  We certainly know that those items weren't paid for by profits from the ski area.

Let's look at the bright side.  For a few years Stenger and Quiros helped chip away at our international trade deficit.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Something like that.  We certainly know that those items weren't paid for by profits from the ski area.
> 
> Let's look at the bright side.  For a few years Stenger and Quiros helped chip away at our international trade deficit.



And these new development will help the mountains in the long run. They never would have happened otherwise. There is definitely a silver lining here.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 15, 2016)




----------



## epic (Apr 15, 2016)

yeggous said:


> And these new development will help the mountains in the long run. They never would have happened otherwise. There is definitely a silver lining here.



Maybe, but only if they are able to consistently fill a hotel that big. Otherwise it is just a fiscal sore that makes it harder to operate the mountain than before. It may actually make it less desirable than before. Besides, if you are a potential buyer for the mountain, land tat you can build on is more valuable than land that has already been built on. The money is made when you build, not from operating what you built. If it were otherwise, Q would have done whatever is needed to get that hotel open.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

epic said:


> Maybe, but only if they are able to consistently fill a hotel that big. Otherwise it is just a fiscal sore that makes it harder to operate the mountain than before. It may actually make it less desirable than before. Besides, if you are a potential buyer for the mountain, land tat you can build on is more valuable than land that has already been built on. The money is made when you build, not from operating what you built. If it were otherwise, Q would have done whatever is needed to get that hotel open.



My guess is, that in the end, half of the hotel gets sold off as timeshare apartment-like units. The other half remains hotel.


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

One other silver lining with the hotel is that I always thought it was a smart design (if you have to build something that big) in that as suites, there is a chance to possibly sell units within the hotel as time shares/condos etc.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

I've always been amazed at how many people are willing to purchase condos at a ski area that is perpetually going bankrupt.


----------



## epic (Apr 15, 2016)

Wait, what?

From Burlington Free Press - "That will be the responsibility of the federal receiver who has taken control of all the EB-5 projects except the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center."

So who controls the Hotel right now? PeakCM?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

epic said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> From Burlington Free Press - "That will be the responsibility of the federal receiver who has taken control of all the EB-5 projects except the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center."
> 
> So who controls the Hotel right now? PeakCM?



I think so. Since the hotel was built with EB5 money that all passed through the state's regulatory review, it is on the up and up. However, I have a feeling once the connection between Stenger and PeakCM is revealed, the hotel will go into receivership as well.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

double post


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think so. Since the hotel was built with EB5 money that all passed through the state's regulatory review, it is on the up and up. However, I have a feeling once the connection between Stenger and PeakCM is revealed, the hotel will go into receivership as well.



But how can Stenger continue to run the Burke hotel if there is an injunction prohibiting him from having anything to do with an EB-5 project?

IIRC, at the press conference the Attorney General strongly hinted that the Burke Hotel may be coming into receivership.  It is hard to see a scenario where it doesn't.  Well... maybe a foreclosure by the contractor.

I'm still not convinced that Jerry Davis is an angel in this whole thing.  But that is PURE speculation on my part and nothing more.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

yeggous said:


> And these new development will help the mountains in the long run. They never would have happened otherwise. There is definitely a silver lining here.



Given the gains are through destroying some people's lives and completely illegal, I'd call it a pyrite-lining at best.   

And frankly, it's too early to tell how much "help" some of these developments will be in the long run, because you can no longer trust ANYTHING Burke and Jay Peak were publicly saying about their books.  No confidence.   

Take the waterpark?  They claim it's very profitable, I've always had my doubts, and my doubts are bigger now.  Anyone ever see Jay release any statistics for annual paid Pump house visits?


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

it has been said here before, but I agree with VTK-  both Davis and Mike (I.e. the new burke GM & principle at Mike's Electric) appear to thick as thieves (pun intended) with Q senior.    Hard to believe their companies survive this mess intact.

AND, as has been said before, the biggest loser here appears to be the city of Newport.  Tony Pomerleau sniffed this out a long time ago and was very public about what he thought of the Q family.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> the biggest loser here appears to be the city of Newport.  Tony Pomerleau sniffed this out a long time ago and was very public about what he thought of the Q family.


Mayor Monette was still cheering for Stenger and Quiros long after everyone knew that the house of cards was falling.  Maybe he was just doing his job, but I would rather have seen some actual contingency planning.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Take the waterpark?  They claim it's very profitable, I've always had my doubts, and my doubts are bigger now.  Anyone ever see Jay release any statistics for annual paid Pump house visits?


As someone with a summer pass (good from May 1 until just before Thanksgiving), it has always appeared to me that the water park is absolutely hemorrhaging money for about eight months per year.  

The sad truth is that Jay Peak is a pretty depressing place to be in the summer.  The big mistake was not making a "village" with all of these new hotels.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Take the waterpark?  They claim it's very profitable, I've always had my doubts, and my doubts are bigger now.  Anyone ever see Jay release any statistics for annual paid Pump house visits?



They've always released the number of total entries during the homeowner meetings but never for 'paid' visits.  Same for lift tickets.  

Pumphouse is busy/very busy half of the year and has a regular stream of customers year round.  They most definitely turn an operating profit if money from free passes comped to hotel guests is properly accounted for.  Is it enough to somehow reimburse the EB5 investors somewhere down the line ?  I have doubts about that.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think so. Since the hotel was built with EB5 money that all passed through the state's regulatory review, it is on the up and up. However, I have a feeling once the connection between Stenger and PeakCM is revealed, the hotel will go into receivership as well.



I'd think that the fact that it hasn't been formally turned over to the owners yet, may also have something to do with it.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> it has always appeared to me that the water park is absolutely hemorrhaging money for about eight months per year.



I strongly disagree with this. There is one dead month in each shoulder season, but I've found the place to be reasonable busy during summer and most fall week-ends.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> T*hey've always released the number of total entries* during the homeowner meetings but never for 'paid' visits.  Same for lift tickets.



Get that number next time if you can.



fbrissette said:


> *Pumphouse is busy/very busy half of the year and has a regular stream of customers year round.  They most definitely turn an operating profit* if money from free passes comped to hotel guests is properly accounted for.



Quite possibly so, but I doubt it's as large as may appear just by looking at it during a Saturday in January.   That park must cost a few million to run per year.   

Also, remember a lot of visits are heavily discounted (BOGOS, etc..).  If you assume $2M to run and an average cost of $29 admission, (this is admittedly worse than back of the envelope) you'd need 70,000 paid visits just to break even on expenses.


----------



## xlr8r (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> As someone with a summer pass (good from May 1 until just before Thanksgiving), it has always appeared to me that the water park is absolutely hemorrhaging money for about eight months per year.
> 
> The sad truth is that Jay Peak is a pretty depressing place to be in the summer.  The big mistake was not making a "village" with all of these new hotels.



That is what I always thought was stupid design wise.  They should have tried to build up Tramside as a village like Tremblant or Stratton.  Keep all the lodging and amenities close together so that everything is easily accessible within walking distance of each other.  Instead they spread everything out with half the amenities and a hotel over at Stateside which makes no sense.  They should have left Stateside as just a base for day skiers only.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 15, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> That is what I always thought was stupid design wise.  They should have tried to build up Tramside as a village like Tremblant or Stratton.  Keep all the lodging and amenities close together so that everything is easily accessible within walking distance of each other.  Instead they spread everything out with half the amenities and a hotel over at Stateside which makes no sense.  They should have left Stateside as just a base for day skiers only.



The only reason I can think of to split the hotels is F&B revenue. You're going to need a full service restaurant at Stateside even for the day crowd. By putting a hotel on this side now you're guaranteeing them some breakfast and dinner revenue too.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I strongly disagree with this. There is one dead month in each shoulder season, but I've found the place to be reasonable busy during summer and most fall week-ends.



We definitely disagree.  First, weekends are only two days out of seven.  Second, I have been there on summer weekends when we leave an hour before closing and we are the very last people in the park.  

Just looking at admissions may not be that accurate.  Our family pass is $250 and is good for just short of seven months.  Even if we go just ten times in those seven months, we've only paid just $6.25 per person per visit.  On a typical summer weekend we recognize a lot of same faces, which suggests that many people are there on summer passes.

Just the cost of pumping all of that water must be massive.  And there are a ton of lifeguards and other staff.  That place is not cheap to run.

On the other hand, I definitely agree that the place is hopping in the winter.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Moving forward, I'm willing to bet that Jerry Davis will file a foreclosure action on the hotel to enforce his lien.  At this point he has to know that he's not getting anything from Stenger/Quiros, so he doesn't have any other options.

If he doesn't file a foreclosure action, this could be a sign that a buyer is in the wings.  I doubt someone has come forward already, but who knows.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2016)

We don't use the park in the winter (too busy) but we also have a pass in the summer.  I have never ever seen the place even close to being empty, but we're not there at closing time either.

The have stated 220 000 entries per year (not that I believe anything they say anymore).   Even at an average of 10$ this is more than the 2M$ mentionned earlier.   It is also used to bring tournaments, weddings and hotel nights so for all we know it could be a loss leader.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> That is what I always thought was stupid design wise.  They should have tried to build up Tramside as a village like Tremblant or Stratton.  Keep all the lodging and amenities close together so that everything is easily accessible within walking distance of each other.  Instead they spread everything out with half the amenities and a hotel over at Stateside which makes no sense.  They should have left Stateside as just a base for day skiers only.



Agreed.   Not only that, but Jay Peak has become a bit of an eyesore with all the development all over the place.  It's not even recognizable from what it was 10 years ago.  Would have been much better off if all the development was contained.

In that same vein, I'd love to know what their true occupancy rate is between hotels and condominiums, because my suspicion is that they overbuilt and are now oversupplied - which real is easy to do when you're feloniously building with "free money".  

 I have a feeling that in 5 or 6 years, instead of staying with family in Franklin County, I'm going to be staying at Jay Peak because the discounted lodging may be so cheap.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

Anyone think about the timing of this lien and how it occurred shortly before this whole mess.

It's like Jerry Davis knew this was coming.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> Anyone think about the timing of this lien and how it occurred shortly before this whole mess.
> 
> It's like Jerry Davis knew this was coming.



My opinion: Jerry Davis went public when he knew that the house of cards had completely fallen.  Up until then he was VERY careful to keep pleasing Stenger and Quiros.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

ALL of the players had to know this was coming.  You cannot do the forensic accounting and all the other investigative work that has been done without interviews, subpoenas etc.  I suspect that one of the reasons the JR has been SO UNPLEASANT and such an ass is that he/they have known this day was coming and he is trapped.  The guy I marvel at is Stenger.  He has been working HARD at trying keep Jay Peak running, trying to get jr to do the right thing at Burke & still out there trying to drum up EB-5 money.  He is either incredibly good at hiding what he is thinking or he didn't fully understand how bad this is/was.



JPTracker said:


> Anyone think about the timing of this lien and how it occurred shortly before this whole mess.
> 
> It's like Jerry Davis knew this was coming.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *The have stated 220 000 entries per year* (not that I believe anything they say anymore).   Even at an average of 10$ this is more than the 2M$ mentionned earlier.



No way.   That's 600 people per day, 365 days per year, including mud season.  I cant imagine that's possible.

Maybe that's bodies past turnstiles, including employees, including the 13 year old kid who entered/exited 7 times per day, etc.., but I cant imagine that's unique/paid visits.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> ALL of the players had to know this was coming.  You cannot do the forensic accounting and all the other investigative work that has been done without interviews, subpoenas etc.  I suspect that one of the reasons the JR has been SO UNPLEASANT and such an ass is that he/they have known this day was coming and he is trapped.  The guy I marvel at is Stenger.  He has been working HARD at trying keep Jay Peak running, trying to get jr to do the right thing at Burke & still out there trying to drum up EB-5 money.  He is either incredibly good at hiding what he is thinking or he didn't fully understand how bad this is/was.



I honestly think that if he told us the truth he would say that the end (a better Jay Peak) justifies the means.  And that everything would turn out fine, everyone would get their money back, and everything would be great.  I think he was just simply overwhelmed trying to manage this huge thing that he created.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

VIOLATION of the rules of web forum fighting:  who brings a calculator to these rumbles?  definitely a violation.



BenedictGomez said:


> No way.   That's 600 people per day, 365 days per year, including mud season.  I cant imagine that's possible.
> 
> Maybe that's bodies past turnstiles, including employees, including the 13 year old kid who entered/exited 7 times per day, etc.., but I cant imagine that's unique/paid visits.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> VIOLATION of the rules of web forum fighting:  who brings a calculator to these rumbles?  definitely a violation.



I dont buy a loaf of bread without building an Excel spreadsheet.

<----dork


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> VIOLATION of the rules of web forum fighting:  who brings a calculator to these rumbles?  definitely a violation.



:lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

And because of BG's lead, I did some digging and found this newly released footage of the Receiver interviewing Ary and Mike for their jobs.  

First, Ary:



Then big Mike:



And finally, the remaining janitor at the mountain who does "the bare minimum to not get fired" by Ary:


----------



## burski (Apr 15, 2016)

How would Jerry Davis know anything??? (Jerry left / Bill Kelly named in complaint on right)...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

burski said:


> How would Jerry Davis know anything??? (Jerry left / Bill Kelly named in complaint on right)...



Yeah...I mean wasn't Q and Stenger partners with him in the Jay Peak construction entity?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

They finally broke their Facebook silence:



> As you may have heard, Q Burke Mountain Resort will be working under what is referred to as a receiving firm while current ownership works with state and federal officials surrounding their ongoing investigation relative to the EB5 Foreign Investment Program. This investigation is not connected to the day-to-day operations of the mountain, campground, mountain biking or any of our services that will continue to operate as we move forward with summer operations.
> It has been made clear by the team representing this receiving firm and who addressed the Q Burke employees yesterday morning that their number one priority is to ensure we continue moving forward with our current operations and that our employees maintain their current work schedules. The first step towards our state inspection for the Sherburne Express is scheduled for Monday, April 18th in preparation for the Q Burke Bike Park opening Memorial Day weekend. Grips (shown below) from the Sherburne are ready and prepared for the non-destructive testing.
> Our new online reservation system for the Q Burke Campground will be fully up and running as well by early next week and we appreciate your patience as we work through that new system. You are welcome to contact our guest services office to reserve your date in advance.
> Our sister property said it best “It is an awkward time for us on the ground and we appreciate you giving us some room to figure all of this out. We will absolutely keep you in the loop as this takes more shape and appreciate your support as we move toward a much more sustainable future.”
> Thank you everyone, we will be in touch.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Does anyone else find it interesting that the decisively appointed an in-house manager at Jay Peak, but that they haven't named anyone for Burke?  That does not bode well for Ary.  I can't imagine that they want the prime target's son in the hen house.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone else find it interesting that the decisively appointed an in-house manager at Jay Peak, but that they haven't named anyone for Burke?  That does not bode well for Ary.  I can't imagine that they want the prime target's son in the hen house.


And I'm sure the fact that he has run the operation into the ground and NO ONE respects him has nothing to do with him being marginalized so far (if not already shown the door). 

Steve Wright = Well respected industry professional

Q Jr =


----------



## Edd (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone else find it interesting that the decisively appointed an in-house manager at Jay Peak, but that they haven't named anyone for Burke.



First thing I noticed. It's nice to see that they intend to operate but the sooner they get a new manager, the better. Even with this shitstorm, that change would bring such relief.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

you guys have forgotten, Qbukre has a GM who is not Ary-  Mike P. is GM.  carefully inserted before the shit hit the fan.




Edd said:


> First thing I noticed. It's nice to see that they intend to operate but the sooner they get a new manager, the better. Even with this shitstorm, that change would bring such relief.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

There has been no mention of him being granted any sort of operational power (ala Steve promotion at Jay). The Leisure Resorts will likely figure out pretty quickly that Electric Mike has no resort management experience.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

He tried to convince to pass holders that he had experience.  He also waxed poetic about the integrity of the Quiros family.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> you guys have forgotten, Qbukre has a GM who is not Ary-  Mike P. is GM.  carefully inserted before the shit hit the fan.



Both Ary and Electric Mike will be gone.  Both are just too close to the fire on this one.


----------



## 56fish (Apr 15, 2016)

*Glass half-full*



from_the_NEK said:


> And I'm sure the fact that he has run the operation into the ground and NO ONE respects him has nothing to do with him being marginalized so far (if not already shown the door).
> 
> Steve Wright = Well respected industry professional
> 
> Q Jr =




Surely head-hunters are at work....


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2016)

The more important question is who in their right mine would want to take a position at Q Burke as the general manager. Most applicants would realize the the longterm stability of such position is suspect to a potential sale or closer of the resort. I would venture to say that Ary will stay on board though the, most likely, long and drawn out case Bill and Ariel are going to have to go through.


----------



## Sheave Head (Apr 15, 2016)

Saminfo.com is by far the best place for professionals to find resort work and the QBurke debacle has been the headline twice. I agree It seems extremely unlikely that any professional would come here given the circumstances


----------



## the original trailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> My guess is, that in the end, half of the hotel gets sold off as timeshare apartment-like units. The other half remains hotel.



  Exactly !


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

56fish said:


> Surely head-hunters are at work....



Check out Ary's FB page, in particular the header image. He may or may not be living the dream, but he does seem to be living in dreamland:

https://www.facebook.com/ary.quiros.9


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2016)

He posted that the day after firing 140 people or whatever it was.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 15, 2016)

LOL
http://vermont.craigslist.org/grd/5539110344.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...y-peak-stenger-fraud-case-interview/83075814/


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...y-peak-stenger-fraud-case-interview/83075814/



I just read that as well.

Total bullshit if you ask me.  There is no way someone could do the things the SEC laid out and not know what was going on.  In order to be that clueless he would have to have barely enough brain function to complete basic bodily functions.......


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...y-peak-stenger-fraud-case-interview/83075814/




"The unwashed person would think, 'Gosh, there's money missing. They've taken money,'" Stenger told a reporter.

UNWASHED! (see Bulwar-Lytton)


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 15, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> "The unwashed person would think, 'Gosh, there's money missing. They've taken money,'" Stenger told a reporter.
> 
> UNWASHED! (see Bulwar-Lytton)



It was a dark and stormy night.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 15, 2016)

Stengel is delusional. I think he was questioned by the SEC in 2014. That should be a giveaway.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

I love how this Stenger character is acting like all he did is make a right turn without using his signal.

His rude awakening comes when he finds out federal prosecutors aren't as naive as the locals he's been duping.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 16, 2016)

Did anyone really expect him to say something else?

Legal action or not, he is f'ed up here.  Take your money and go away.  He has been looking the other way for so long he doesn't even know how to look any other way.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 16, 2016)

Very selfishly, I like Bill Stenger & think he is a decent guy.  I don't like Ary and I think he is a little entitled prick, son of a prick and cast from evil sperm.  Seems sad that one can envision a criminal indictment against Stenger and not Jr.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Very selfishly, I like Bill Stenger & think he is a decent guy.  I don't like Ary and I think he is a little entitled prick, son of a prick and cast from evil sperm.  Seems sad that one can envision a criminal indictment against Stenger and not Jr.



Agreed.  But, like Mac Parker, Stenger is a "likable guy" and both were tools to raise millions of dollars to be wrongfully used.


----------



## xwhaler (Apr 16, 2016)

May be a likable guy and not the brains behind the operation but still a crook


----------



## yeggous (Apr 16, 2016)

If Stenger's sons still have their jobs, what does that say about Q Jr?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## River19 (Apr 16, 2016)

Listen, I liked Stenger too, I thought he gave a shit about the NEK, and deep down, I think he does.  But he cared about stuffing cash in his pockets even more than he cared about the NEK.  Unfortunate for him, in these cases, and with the damning evidence on him, there is no insanity defense.  Not even temporarily insane..........for 8 years........

The dude is dirty.  Flat out barn-yard, rolling in poop, drinking a 30 rack of straight Budweiser peeing yourself and not showering for weeks dirty.  He is the unwashed; who the frig talks like that anyways?

Ary, he is a pathetic poser of a man with negative character........if I didn't respect his service to our country he would be a straight up panty waste.  Sorry for the harsh language today but these 3 dipshits really have me seething.

Don't even get me started on Newport......


----------



## River19 (Apr 16, 2016)

Listen, I liked Stenger too, I thought he gave a shit about the NEK, and deep down, I think he does.  But he cared about stuffing cash in his pockets even more than he cared about the NEK.  Unfortunate for him, in these cases, and with the damning evidence on him, there is no insanity defense.  Not even temporarily insane..........for 8 years........

The dude is dirty.  Flat out barn-yard, rolling in poop, drinking a 30 rack of straight Budweiser peeing yourself and not showering for weeks dirty.  He is the unwashed; who the frig talks like that anyways?

Ary, he is a pathetic poser of a man with negative character........if I didn't respect his service to our country he would be a straight up panty waste.  Sorry for the harsh language today but these 3 dipshits really have me seething.

Don't even get me started on Newport......


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2016)

Worth a listen. Pretty much spot on:

http://digital.vpr.net/post/albright-broken-promises


And:

http://timesargus.com/article/20160417/OPINION01/160419682/1021


----------



## mbedle (Apr 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> Listen, I liked Stenger too, I thought he gave a shit about the NEK, and deep down, I think he does.  But he cared about stuffing cash in his pockets even more than he cared about the NEK.  Unfortunate for him, in these cases, and with the damning evidence on him, there is no insanity defense.  Not even temporarily insane..........for 8 years........
> 
> The dude is dirty.  Flat out barn-yard, rolling in poop, drinking a 30 rack of straight Budweiser peeing yourself and not showering for weeks dirty.  He is the unwashed; who the frig talks like that anyways?
> 
> ...



I wasn't aware that Stenger got any money out of these actions. It seemed to me that Stinger's part was limited to moving the money around between the Bank and the investment firm in FL. I guess you could say that by those actions it allow the Tramhouse and Stateside hotels to get completed, which should have resulted in generating profits.


----------



## River19 (Apr 18, 2016)

Stenger doesn't have to necessarily have profited to be dirty.  Of course if he wasn't profiting from this one would have to ask why would he have done it and for so long.  The reality is he defrauded a slew of investors with false marketing materials and gladly collected the investment management fee in the process.  So he at the very least collected a large number of $50K fees on false pretenses.

He broke the limited partnership agreements numerous times every time he wired money from People's Bank to RJ accounts in Q's control.

Every time Stenger would solicit for investors both overseas as well as in the US he violated SEC regs with material misrepresentations and omissions. 

Bill is up to his neck in this.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> Stenger doesn't have to necessarily have profited to be dirty.  Of course if he wasn't profiting from this one would have to ask why would he have done it and for so long.  The reality is he defrauded a slew of investors with false marketing materials and gladly collected the investment management fee in the process.  So he at the very least collected a large number of $50K fees on false pretenses.
> 
> He broke the limited partnership agreements numerous times every time he wired money from People's Bank to RJ accounts in Q's control.
> 
> ...



Very good point - I forgot about the management fees he shared with Quiros.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

Stenger responds....at least to the Caledonian Record:



> NEWPORT CITY — Jay Peak Resort CEO and President Bill Stenger said he was surprised by some of the state and federal lawsuits over misuse and fraud of millions in EB-5 foreign investments in the Northeast Kingdom projects he spearheaded.
> 
> And he thanked his family and employees at Jay Peak for their support in the last few days.
> 
> ...


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 18, 2016)

*I find this pretty ironic*

I found this on Areys FB page.Sounds like he and his father took this one to heart....and too far.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I found this on Areys FB page.Sounds like he and his father took this one to heart....and too far.



There are probably a lot of these inspirational messages hanging on the walls of their place at Trump Place in NYC.  Losers.

And at last check, Ary is STILL working at the mountain.  How that is happening is beyond me.  Apparently it will take a nuclear bombing of the mountain to get him out.  He has no legitimacy at all.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And at last check, Ary is STILL working at the mountain.  How that is happening is beyond me.  Apparently it will take a nuclear bombing of the mountain to get him out.  He has no legitimacy at all.


I have mixed feelings about this.  I still believe that he is a very short-timer, but I also believe that having to answer to someone else has got to be KILLING him.  I know that he can do it in the military, but I still think that it is torture for him at Burke.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> There are probably a lot of these inspirational messages hanging on the walls of their place at Trump Place in NYC.  Losers.
> 
> And at last check, Ary is STILL working at the mountain.  How that is happening is beyond me.  Apparently it will take a nuclear bombing of the mountain to get him out.  He has no legitimacy at all.



Why does that surprise you? Did you think that Leisure Hotels was going to come in and be able to make the determination to let him go, only after 4 days?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Why does that surprise you? Did you think that Leisure Hotels was going to come in and be able to make the determination to let him go, only after 4 days?



I think that considering that his Dad is the target of this whole thing that there might be a SLIGHT conflict of interest there or issue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

http://www.wcax.com/story/31755600/...ls-in-the-spotlight-after-alleged-kingdom-con


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Very good point - I forgot about the management fees he shared with Quiros.


The $50k wasn't the management fee. That was the fee above & beyond the $500k investment to get in. The management fee was 15% on top of that .


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 19, 2016)

Can we just combine the other thread with this one so TB doesn't have to post everything in both threads?


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## epic (Apr 19, 2016)

The question that I keep asking myself is have they taken Ary Sr.'s passport? It sure does seem like it would be easy for him to flee given his easy access to aircraft and the fact that he surely has tens of millions of dollars offshore.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 19, 2016)

epic said:


> The question that I keep asking myself is have they taken Ary Sr.'s passport? It sure does seem like it would be easy for him to flee given his easy access to aircraft and the fact that he surely has tens of millions of dollars offshore.



Was he on the Panama list?


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## fbrissette (Apr 19, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> The $50k wasn't the management fee. That was the fee above & beyond the $500k investment to get in. The management fee was 15% on top of that .



Both amounts are management fees.  The 50k is the EB5 management fee (i.e. paperwork for the visa process).  The 15% is the construction management fee.


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## epic (Apr 19, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Was he on the Panama list?



Good question, I think only a media outlet can answer that as it hasn't been released publicly yet.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 19, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Can we just combine the other thread with this one so TB doesn't have to post everything in both threads?



And so this thread can hit 10,000 posts that much sooner!


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## Not Sure (Apr 19, 2016)

Domeskier said:


> And so this thread can hit 10,000 posts that much sooner!



I think it lost a few hundred due to a database issue some time ago ?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I think it lost a few hundred due to a database issue some time ago ?



Yep. Ripped off 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

The receiver has filed a request with the court for authorization to loan up to $750,000 from one or more Receivership or Relief Defendants to Q Burke.  This is to preserve Q Burke for the next 13 weeks so that it can be later operated or sold.  

Some allegations in the motion:
- EB-5 money was used to purchase the resort.
- The Burke Mountain Operating Company regularly received funds from Quiros flowing through the Relief Defendants to fund its operating shortfalls.  These transfers exceeded $5 million.
- Construction of the hotel wasn't completed until February, 2016.
- There are no funds available to operate the hotel.
- The receiver is filing a motion to expand the receivership to include Q Burke LP (the EB-5 company for the hotel)
- Stenger's attorney has no objection to this request.  Quiros' attorney has been "unable to discuss" the request with Quiros, and, therefore, took no position on the request.
- The mountain bike park is budgeted to have $77,200 in revenues between now and the week ending 7/16/26.
- $70,000 is budgeted for revenue from "Developer Sales [Jack Dator]" with a note saying "closing pending end of April/early May."  (This appears to be the mountain's cut of a Bear Path condo sale.  Wanna guess if that closing will really happen now????  These purchasers might be breathing a huge sigh of relief.)


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## halfpintvt (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The receiver has filed a request with the court for authorization to loan up to $750,000 from one or more Receivership or Relief Defendants to Q Burke.  This is to preserve Q Burke for the next 13 weeks so that it can be later operated or sold.
> 
> Some allegations in the motion:
> - EB-5 money was used to purchase the resort.
> ...




Where did you find this information? I think PeakCM might object to the hotel going into receivership until they are paid.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

The latest:  http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../19/ariel-quiros-unfreeze-my-assets/83257644/

I mean, it is ONLY $50 million that he needs.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

I've had a chance to look at another motion.  This is a request to expand the receivership.

Some allegations in this motion that are of interest:
- The motion alleges that the Q Burke entities are owned and managed by Quiros AND Stenger.
- The hotel was built on land purchased with funds that were improperly diverted from an EB-5 offering.
- Funds pledged to the Receivership Entities were improperly commingled with the Q Burke entities.
- "Q Burke Entities and their investors have become yet another vehicle used by the Defendants to engage in a series of complicated and convoluted transactions aimed at carrying out the scheme described in the SEC's Complaint."
- The Q Burke entities would be unable to operate if the receivership is not expanded.
- The Receiver and the Vermont Attorney General's Office are fielding investor complaints.
- Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC billed the Hotel LLC $571,653 for payroll and expenses incurred through December 26, 2015.


I've also had a chance to read Ariel Quiros' emergency motion to unfreeze assets.  
Some highlights:
- The SEC conducted a three year investigation.
- "Literally, Quiros cannot purchase food or a cup of coffee..."
- Much of the alleged misconduct is outside of the five year statute of limitations.
- Quiros' net worth grew from $178 million as of 9/30/2014 to more than $200 million today.
- Jay Peak, Inc. was valued at approximately $100 million as of July, 2015.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 20, 2016)

> - Funds pledged to the Receivership Entities were improperly commingled with the Q Burke entities.



...and Jr didn't know any of this? Yeah right...  :blink:


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

If I am reading the spreadsheet correctly, it looks like Burke owes Lyndonville Electric $315,309.  Part of the amount appears to be part of a payment plan for winter operations.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> ...and Jr didn't know any of this? Yeah right...  :blink:



Daddy just gave him a Range Rover and a house.  It was like Christmas.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 20, 2016)

> - Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC billed the Hotel LLC $571,653 for payroll and expenses incurred through December 26, 2015.



For a non-operational hotel...


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Daddy just gave him a Range Rover and a house.  It was like Christmas.



Who paid for the airplane and fuel for him to fly out of town to go "workout" at a non-local gym?? Which LLC was this an expense for?

From from what's been said about the house, he evidently couldn't be bothered caring for the yard. Says a lot about him and his "military" training.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Who paid for the airplane and fuel for him to fly out of town to go "workout" at a non-local gym?? Which LLC was this an expense for?



That's an EB-5 investor or two.  



> From from what's been said about the house, he evidently couldn't be bothered caring for the yard. Says a lot about him and his "military" training.



Yes, same for the mountain.  He does a good job blaming everyone else for it looking so bad.  Is it that hard to put a fresh coat of paint on the J-Bar?  He does not know of the saying, "the buck stops here."


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Funny that you mention the airplane.  Remember how Quiros was going to manufacture Flight Design aircraft in Newport, Vermont?  Flight Design filed for receivership in February.  So much for that idea.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

One odd thing about the spreadsheet is that there is no revenue listed for season pass sales.  There are so many LLC's that Quiros controls, that perhaps this explains it.  

The spreadsheet is not at all sophisticated.  For example, the payroll expense for the campground is merely an estimate at 20% of revenue.  The same is true for mountain biking and events.  You'd think that they would know what their actual staffing requirements are and budget accordingly, but apparently not.

I also noticed that their worker's comp insurance is in arrears to the tune of $45,000.  There is also an entry for Willis Insurance that says, "disconnect notice pending."  The amount owed is in excess of $75,000.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 20, 2016)

Article in today's Cal-Rec about the Leisure Resorts company that is running the mountains:

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_0c626b4e-1371-5faf-b065-9d24babfffc1.html

This is the worst part of the article:



> Olson speaks by phone every day with Ary Quiros (Jr) at QBurke. That resort has a minimal summer operation, with only about 16 people on staff once the ski hill shuts down for the winter.



Ary is still running the place :angry: and it doesn't sound like the Leisure Resorts guys are likely to remove him any time soon.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The spreadsheet is not at all sophisticated.  For example, the payroll expense for the campground is merely an estimate at 20% of revenue.  The same is true for mountain biking and events.  You'd think that they would know what their actual staffing requirements are and budget accordingly, but apparently not.



Do you think Ary actually wants to keep track of such things?



> I also noticed that their worker's comp insurance is in arrears to the tune of $45,000.  There is also an entry for Willis Insurance that says, "disconnect notice pending."  The amount owed is in excess of $75,000.



That would also make an additional case for firing almost everyone. If someone got hurt and the resort was not insured it could be HUGE $. Electric Mike probably has his own insurance.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The spreadsheet is not at all sophisticated.  For example, the payroll expense for the campground is merely an estimate at 20% of revenue.  The same is true for mountain biking and events.  You'd think that they would know what their actual staffing requirements are and budget accordingly, but apparently not.



I'm not following you. This doesn't sound out of the ordinary. Most hospitality businesses work on this model. You forecast revenue and then target labor costs based upon a set percentage of that revenue.  All non-fixed costs are targeted as a percentage for that matter.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not following you. This doesn't sound out of the ordinary. Most hospitality businesses work on this model. You forecast revenue and then target labor costs based upon a set percentage of that revenue.  All non-fixed costs are targeted as a percentage for that matter.



You'd know better than I would. I found it odd for the campground, though. Don't they know what they need for staff?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You'd know better than I would. I found it odd for the campground, though. Don't they know what they need for staff?



I'd have to see the spreadsheet to see what exactly you're looking at.  

Staffing needs are determined based on forecasted revenue.  I'd imagine there's further documentation saying there's so many supervisors and line level associates at such and such wages.

A cover sheet for such a budget might only show forecasted revenue and what the labor percentage goal is.

If there's no documentation with more detail, then I'd agree with your original assessment.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Unfortunately I can't post a PDF as an image.


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## halfpintvt (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I've had a chance to look at another motion.  This is a request to expand the receivership.
> 
> Some allegations in this motion that are of interest:
> - The motion alleges that the Q Burke entities are owned and managed by Quiros AND Stenger.
> ...



Can you tell me where I can find these motions? Is there a link that I can follow?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Can you tell me where I can find these motions? Is there a link that I can follow?



There isn't a link that I can give you.  They are available through the federal court's PACER system.  Anyone can open an account, but it's ten cents per page to download documents.  They waive the fees if you don't exceed $15 in a quarter.


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## halfpintvt (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There isn't a link that I can give you.  They are available through the federal court's PACER system.  Anyone can open an account, but it's ten cents per page to download documents.  They waive the fees if you don't exceed $15 in a quarter.



Thank you so much. I appreciate your help, I will set up an account.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Here is a link to download the spreadsheet that the Receiver filed with the court:

https://filetea.me/t1sbq8fVV40T8CqTPXx4nrjiQ


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

And here is a link to download the entire motion:

https://filetea.me/t1sso25ORGxRniFBIUkI1lMGg


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## manhattanskier (Apr 20, 2016)

Reading the first few pages of this thread is incredible and scary.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

I just noticed footnote #3 of the Receiver's motion to access funds for Q Burke:
"While the accounts payable are still being studied, there may be over $1 million of trade payables . . . The Receiver will seek to defer those payables."

Look for "cash on delivery" to be the new normal at Q Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I just noticed footnote #3 of the Receiver's motion to access funds for Q Burke:
> "While the accounts payable are still being studied, there may be over $1 million of trade payables . . . The Receiver will seek to defer those payables."
> 
> Look for "cash on delivery" to be the new normal at Q Burke.



I have heard from numerous folks that the mountain was in excess of $1 mill in the red (approximately)


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I have heard from numerous folks that the mountain in excess of $1 mill in the red (approximately)



That's a big hole to dig out of before the beginning of next ski season.  The Receiver is seeking to defer these payables.  Suppliers are going to expect cash up front for anything in the future.

The Receiver has his work cut out for him, that's for sure.

Oddly enough, Receivership may have avoided a bankruptcy.


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## yeggous (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's a big hole to dig out of before the beginning of next ski season.  The Receiver is seeking to defer these payables.  Suppliers are going to expect cash up front for anything in the future.
> 
> The Receiver has his work cut out for him, that's for sure.
> 
> Oddly enough, Receivership may have avoided a bankruptcy.



Yeah, but they do this for a living. This is why you bring in a receiver. They are used to cleaning up messes.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Yeah, but they do this for a living. This is why you bring in a receiver. They are used to cleaning up messes.



Usually by selling the asset and wiping out creditors, no?

Maybe I'm just being cynical.  They have Electric Mike to rely on.  That man alone should be what's needed to turn things around.  /sarcasm


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## sull1102 (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I just noticed footnote #3 of the Receiver's motion to access funds for Q Burke:
> "While the accounts payable are still being studied, there may be over $1 million of trade payables . . . The Receiver will seek to defer those payables."
> 
> Look for "cash on delivery" to be the new normal at Q Burke.



Knowing this and after the general consensus hat or would be tough to open Burke next year, I'd say it's almost a lock at this point that Burke misses a season or two. That hotel won't open till 2018 I bet.


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## yeggous (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Usually by selling the asset and wiping out creditors, no?



I'm not an expert in the matter. Let's not make any assumptions of who gets paid what from the sale of the mountain. Considering that it was purchased with misappropriated funds there is an entire chain of hurt here.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> Knowing this and after the general consensus hat or would be tough to open Burke next year, I'd say it's almost a lock at this point that Burke misses a season or two. That hotel won't open till 2018 I bet.



I highly doubt that.  They would lose a lot of value to the assets if they do not open.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I highly doubt that.  They would lose a lot of value to the assets if they do not open.



The money has to come from somewhere.  I suppose it's largely up to the EB-5 investors at this point, since that's the only pot of money that I am aware of.


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## yeggous (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The money has to come from somewhere.  I suppose it's largely up to the EB-5 investors at this point, since that's the only pot of money that I am aware of.



The receiver can take on debt. The argument goes that by taking on debt and keeping the lights on they maximize the value to the creditors. Should they not take on debt and shutter operations, then the resale value my drop by an even greater amount.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

yeggous said:


> The receiver can take on debt. The argument goes that by taking on debt and keeping the lights on they maximize the value to the creditors. Should they not take on debt and shutter operations, then the resale value my drop by an even greater amount.



Good point.  I guess there would have to be one hell of a security interest, though.


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## oldtimer (Apr 20, 2016)

Any investor who was reasonably risk tolerant would float much more than 1 million for a first one 2 chair lifts and 1 hotel-


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## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Another VTDigger article that is well worth a read.
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/20/in-the-kingdom-the-ponzi-cleanup-crew-is-on-the-case/

The best quote: 


> Goldberg said he’s not in charge at Q Burke until the judge grants his motion. If it’s granted, Goldberg said, he will make a decision about who should run the place based on what’s in the business’s best interest. He did not say if Ary Quiros Jr. would be allowed to stay on.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/20/in-the-kingdom-the-ponzi-cleanup-crew-is-on-the-case/

This part is interesting:



> Schneider said Stenger was at Q Burke Hotel when he and other officials arrived April 13 and that Stenger gave them access to the property.
> 
> Residents of Burke say they continue to see Ary Quiros Jr., Quiros’ son, at the resort. The younger Quiros, who managed the resort for his father, has a frosty relationship with locals, who have expressed concern that he still appears to be involved with Q Burke operations.
> 
> Goldberg said he’s not in charge at Q Burke until the judge grants his motion. If it’s granted, Goldberg said, he will make a decision about who should run the place based on what’s in the business’s best interest. He did not say if Ary Quiros Jr. would be allowed to stay on.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

There is a lot of good statements in that article about the lawyers...



> In the short term, Goldberg hopes to keep Quiros and Stenger’s  businesses running smoothly, *while the long-term goal will be to sell  them off* and use that money to pay back the investors and other  creditors.





> Goldberg said it’s going to be “better than business as usual” at Jay  Peak while he’s in charge. The bad winter was hard on the resort, but  the management team from Kansas-based Leisure Hotels & Resorts* has  already found hundreds of thousands of dollars in operating  efficiencies*, he said.





> In a motion filed in federal court Tuesday, Goldberg asked the judge to place both entities under his receivership.





> Residents of Burke say they continue to see Ary Quiros Jr., Quiros’ son,  at the resort. The younger Quiros, who managed the resort for his  father, *has a frosty relationship with locals*, who have expressed  concern that he still appears to be involved with Q Burke operations.





> Goldberg said he’s not in charge at Q Burke until the judge grants his  motion. If it’s granted, Goldberg said, he will make a decision about  who should run the place based on what’s in the business’s best  interest. *He did not say if Ary Quiros Jr. would be allowed to stay on.*





> Goldberg said he anticipates opening Q Burke Mountain Resort for the  next ski season. The virtually completed *hotel and conference center  will open “probably after the summer*,” in an effort to avoid opening  during the off season, he said — provided the judge in Miami allows him  to take charge.





> Down the road, Goldberg said, *he plans to sell both resorts and any  other assets or properties placed under his control.* Those sales will  happen through a competitive bidding process similar to an auction, he  said.



http://jaypeakreceivership.com/


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 21, 2016)

apologize if this has already been posted.This is the website setup by Goldberg which will contain a lot of pertinent info going forward.
http://jaypeakreceivership.com/


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## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

Did anyone see a transcript of Stenger's deposition?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Did anyone see a transcript of Stenger's deposition?



Handshake deal? Lol!



> Stenger revealed in the deposition that he has a “handshake deal” with  Quiros to own 20 percent of Jay Peak. He reportedly makes $170,000 a  year as Jay Peak president.





> I’ve not benefited personally at all and that was never my priority.”





> Stenger told the SEC that each project account was kept separate, and  that the only funds used to pay off past obligations from future  projects* were the developer fees they felt entitled to and other costs.*.



:roll:


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## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Did anyone see a transcript of Stenger's deposition?



I haven't.  I'm surprised that VTDigger hasn't posted it.  It appears as if they have a copy and they are pretty good about posting their documents.  

I'm confused by the latest VTDigger article - and in particular about the statements concerning Ary Jr.  I thought that the Receiver had control of the ski area, but not the hotel.  If they have control of the ski area, why can't they decide whether or not they want to keep Ary Jr. on staff?  The article makes it sound like they still need the court to give them control.


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## epic (Apr 21, 2016)

It's good to see that they have already talked to BMA and KTA.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 21, 2016)

epic said:


> It's good to see that they have already talked to BMA and KTA.



“We look forward to working with them, because our interests are aligned,” -- Goldberg

I believe Ary will be out.


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## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I haven't.  I'm surprised that VTDigger hasn't posted it.  It appears as if they have a copy and they are pretty good about posting their documents.
> 
> I'm confused by the latest VTDigger article - and in particular about the statements concerning Ary Jr.  I thought that the Receiver had control of the ski area, but not the hotel.  If they have control of the ski area, why can't they decide whether or not they want to keep Ary Jr. on staff?  The article makes it sound like they still need the court to give them control.



I think the problem is with the naming of each entity. The do have receivership of Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC, but not Q Burke Mountain Resort, Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center and Q Burke Mountain Resort GP Services, LLC. I am not sure what the difference is with Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC and Q Burke Mountain Resort. I am thinking that might have been a mistake. If you look at the Affidavit of Sonnet Kapila, one of the exhibits shows the different businesses associated with Q Burke.

If you can't see the exhibit is basically states that Quiros owns Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC, which owns Burke 2000 LLC, which owns Burke Mountain Operating Company, Which owns Burke Mountain Water Company and Burke Mountain Road Management Company. It also shows Quiros owns Q Burke Mountain Resort GP Services, LLC and combined with the EB-5 limited Partners, they own Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center LP. It also shows that Burke Mountain Operating Company operates the hotel.


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## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

One other thing that I was thinking is what is the possibility of Q Burke being bought when it goes to sale in an auction. It would seem to me that with so many ski areas potentially up for sale in the northeast, that would seem really slim. Thinking potentially Jay Peak, Saddleback, Magic and Q Burke could all be on the market in the next couple of years.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> One other thing that I was thinking is what is the possibility of Q Burke being bought when it goes to sale in an auction. It would seem to me that with so many ski areas potentially up for sale in the northeast, that would seem really slim. Thinking potentially Jay Peak, Saddleback, Magic and Q Burke could all be on the market in the next couple of years.



I think that the hotel makes Burke more marketable than Magic or Saddleback.  The only catch is that nobody in their right mind is going to pay $55 million for the hotel, which is about what the investors have into it.  The hotel is going to go for a serious discount.


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## yeggous (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that the hotel makes Burke more marketable than Magic or Saddleback.  The only catch is that nobody in their right mind is going to pay $55 million for the hotel, which is about what the investors have into it.  The hotel is going to go for a serious discount.



Yes, unlike Magic and Saddleback, Burke also has two detachable lifts. And a reasonable proposition for profitable summer operation via a partnership with Kingdom Trails.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> If you can't see the exhibit is basically states that Quiros owns Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC, which owns Burke 2000 LLC, which owns Burke Mountain Operating Company, Which owns Burke Mountain Water Company and Burke Mountain Road Management Company. It also shows Quiros owns Q Burke Mountain Resort GP Services, LLC and combined with the EB-5 limited Partners, they own Q Burke Mountain Resort Hotel and Conference Center LP. It also shows that Burke Mountain Operating Company operates the hotel.


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## freeski (Apr 21, 2016)

What if Q&S Had deposited the anticipated fees into separate accounts for each EB-5 project as investments came in. Then transferred the fees to private accounts as progress was made on the projects? Is this what they're arguing they intended although the accounting was messed up by comingling funds? If money was earned they could invest it in whatever project they wanted or buy a condo. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.


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## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

But there is always a potential to have the same thing that happened at Ascutney, with the hotel not being the same business as the ski area.  Also, I am not sure that the hotel will be considered an asset to selling the resort. Lets just throw a number out there of a potential sale for 50 million. That is for a ski resort that has a somewhat limited vertical and expansion capabilities, and a skier base of 75K (excluding this past season). Now compare that to Jay Peak with a potential sale of 100 million with multiple hotels, waterpark, golf coarse, and a good mountain with better snow. Combined that with a skier base of, I think I read somewhere, 400K and much better snow. If you look at Saddleback and Magic, they fill the niche market for someone not looking to spend 10's of million of dollars to get a ski resort. I think saddleback is around 12 million and Magic would be maybe 3-5 million, depending on if the land gets sold with it. I would put the costs for Jay Peak and Q Burke in the same bucket for being sold to a rather large organization that can handle the price tags. What are the chances of finding one (unlikely) or two companies looking to spend that kind of money? When both of these do go to auction it will be really interesting to see what they end up getting for them.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> One other thing that I was thinking is what is the possibility of Q Burke being bought when it goes to sale in an auction. It would seem to me that with so many ski areas potentially up for sale in the northeast, that would seem really slim. Thinking potentially Jay Peak, Saddleback, Magic and Q Burke could all be on the market in the next couple of years.



Along with the CNL holdings...


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## tumbler (Apr 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Along with the CNL holdings...



Les Otten on line 1....


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## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Les Otten on line 1....




lol


----------



## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Along with the CNL holdings...



And yes, I forgot about that group to.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Along with the CNL holdings...



Yeah, CNL is getting out of the game....


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Les Otten on line 1....




   Yep, good one there!


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Along with the CNL holdings...



and waterville


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yep, good one there!



Les Otten did briefly consider Burke back in the day...


----------



## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

I was just reading a transcript from the SEC testimony before the Committee on Judiciary. It noted that the February 2013 fraud case was their first EB-5 fraud case. This was the EB-5 project involving a hotel and conference center in Chicago. That was settled by March 2014, with a return to investors of 145 million out of the 250 million. Given that timeframe, we may be looking at these places being sold rather quickly. Which may be a good thing for Q Burke if it does sell.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I was just reading a transcript from the SEC testimony before the Committee on Judiciary. It noted that the February 2013 fraud case was their first EB-5 fraud case. This was the EB-5 project involving a hotel and conference center in Chicago. That was settled by March 2014, with a return to investors of 145 million out of the 250 million. Given that timeframe, we may be looking at these places being sold rather quickly. Which may be a good thing for Q Burke if it does sell.



Assuming that there is a good competent buyer.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Assuming that there is a good competent buyer.



I've been doing some back of the envelope calculations, and I'm definitely thinking that the investors are going to take a serious haircut.  

One problem for the mountain is that there is already quite a bit of condo inventory.  If the hotel units get sold off as condos, how many more condos can Burke really sell?  I'm not saying that it can't be done.  I'm just saying that it will take some effort if it is going to happen.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I've been doing some back of the envelope calculations, and I'm definitely thinking that the investors are going to take a serious haircut.



I'm wondering how many will truly care about the money. My impression has always been that to at least some of them, the green card is more important than the money itself.

Of course if they don't get a green card, then I'm sure they would all be pissed about losing any money.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I've been doing some back of the envelope calculations, and I'm definitely thinking that the investors are going to take a serious haircut.
> 
> One problem for the mountain is that there is already quite a bit of condo inventory.  If the hotel units get sold off as condos, how many more condos can Burke really sell?  I'm not saying that it can't be done.  I'm just saying that it will take effort if it is going to happen.



The investors will be bald.  They are not going to go through the time and expense of trying to condo the hotel for individual sales to pay back investors.  It will be sold as is.  Someone else will condo it to get a return- see other thread for my thoughts.  I dont know the condo market at Burke, but new product always seems to sell as opposed to old and tired.

I know there is not a lot to go on but comparing Chicago real estate and NEK is not realistic.  Those investors got 58% back, there is no way Jay and Burke are going to bring in 116M (200M EB-5?) in sales.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 21, 2016)

tumbler said:


> The investors will be bald.



Some of them got a green card out of it.   The newer investors will likely be out of cash with no green cards.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Some of them got a green card out of it.   The newer investors will likely be out of cash with no green cards.



It's a myth that all of these investors only care about a green card.  Many of them will feel a LOT of pain.  However, the Receiver has gone on record saying that their primary concern is getting their green card.  I can see why since many of them may not have enough money left to try EB-5 again.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 21, 2016)

This guy must be friends with Quiros:

http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...defrauded-investors-in-eb-5-visa-fundraising/

http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...rgey-case-says-path-americas-finances-a-mess/

And an example of how they may go forth with a recovery plan:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2695883-Receiver-Report-Dargey.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2016)

mbedle said:


> This guy must be friends with Quiros:
> 
> http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...defrauded-investors-in-eb-5-visa-fundraising/
> 
> ...



So what is it about the EB-5 program that attracts scammers?  Taking advantage of foreigners?


----------



## trackbiker (Apr 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So what is it about the EB-5 program that attracts scammers?  Taking advantage of foreigners?



I'm surprised that there is not an annual independent audit required for these projects.....but then again I'm not. I think the developers felt that no one was watching when they put their hands in the cookie jar. I think you will also find that the cost of these projects were greatly inflated with the developers getting kickbacks or owning the construction and service companies with no competitive bids.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So what is it about the EB-5 program that attracts scammers?  Taking advantage of foreigners?



I think the scammers realize that the people investing in the program are more interested in the green card than in the investment return and, therefore, will not scrutinize the proposals as closely as someone who just wants to profit.  They will also be less likely to pull their money out when the promised returns fail to materialize if that means they have to give up the green card.  It's the government subsidies (i.e., the added value of the green cards) that make the program so irresistible to scammers and crooks.


----------



## freeski (Apr 21, 2016)

trackbiker said:


> I think you will also find that the cost of these projects were greatly inflated with the developers getting kickbacks or owning the construction and service companies with no competitive bids.


I think I read there was a $720M plan by Q&S for the Jay expansion. This covered 2 hotels a lift and 12 trails. When I saw this number I was thinking the same thing with an emphasis on "greatly".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *Q Burke Mountain Resort, LLC billed the Hotel LLC $571,653 for payroll and expenses* incurred through December 26, 2015.



ROTFLMAO.

Serious question, does anybody know what Jay Peak's finance department looks like?  Do they just have a CFO and maybe 1 financial analyst and that's it?  Is accounting outsourced or something?  I'm genuinely curious how such massive and obvious problems weren't being caught by.......well.....someone.  Even a 22 year old junior accountant fresh out of UVM should have looked at a JE like this and been suspicious (or at least wondered what the hell's going on).



manhattanskier said:


> *Reading the first few pages of this thread is incredible and scary.*



2012.

Let me repeat that; *2012.*



VTKilarney said:


> Another VTDigger article that is well worth a read.



Nobody told these guys people dont wear suit & tie in Vermont?   Commence culture shock.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2016)

> *Goldberg is being paid *an hourly rate of $395,* less than his normal rate  of $675.* His team is working at similar discounts, he said, and their  rates must be approved by the court.



About $700 an hour? And here I thought Stenger & Quiros were the crooks.  This guy's Gansta!


----------



## KingdomBC (Apr 22, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Serious question, does anybody know what Jay Peak's finance department looks like?



At some of the passholder meetings there was a guy there name George Gulisano, self-introduced as "just a bean counter".  He was (is?) the CFO for Q Resorts and was essentially Ari Sr's employee.  On the BOD for Burke as the CFO as well.  Spends half of his time in VT and the other half in Miami (shuffling money?).  I think he came on board when the other CFO at Jay Peak grew a conscience.  It's likely only a matter of time before his name floats to the surface in the SEC defendants lists.  He was mentioned by Q Sr in the '14 SEC interview, where he tried to throw him under the bus saying something along the lines of 'if any money was moved around, it was probably by George Gulisano at Jay Peak' <that's not a direct quote, but close>.  Probably then followed by 'I don't know, I don't know - but I'll get the answers for you.  We'll get to the bottom of this.  We'll make the NEK Great Again!'


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 22, 2016)

My understanding is the same as KingdomBC.

George Gulisano is the CFO, and AFAIK, is only surrounded by nice ladies doing the basic paper work.  As a condo board member, I can tell you they have always been disorganized and especially so this past year.   We haven't been getting any financial reports since last summer.  Since they do our accounting and are our main service provider, it's been frustrating working with them.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 22, 2016)

The lawyers will get paid first.  I hope there is enough money to keep the mountains open.  Jay shouldn't be a problem.  But QB could get rough if the receiver needs to operate at a profit.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 22, 2016)

DoublePlanker, ASAIK, the goal of the receiver is to clean up the mess, sell both resorts and refund the money left the investors.  To me, it means that somewhere down the line, someone will buy Burke (including the hotel)  at a highly discounted rate.  

To eventually sell the resort, you have to operate it in the mean time.   

In the long run, I think this will positive for Burke.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 22, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> In the long run, I think this will positive for Burke.



Only if there is actually a buyer out there. That hotel might make it tough for BMA to run the place.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 22, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> DoublePlanker, ASAIK, the goal of the receiver is to clean up the mess, sell both resorts and refund the money left the investors.  To me, it means that somewhere down the line, someone will buy Burke (including the hotel)  at a highly discounted rate.
> 
> To eventually sell the resort, you have to operate it in the mean time.
> 
> In the long run, I think this will positive for Burke.



I understand that.  I hope it will be a positive outcome.  Certainly a great step to rid the place of the Q.  Its just that Burke has been unprofitable forever.  The receiver is not going to lose money.  They will not do capital investments so the crappy snowmaking remains.  How will they operate the ski area profitably when others perpetually fail?


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 22, 2016)

I think the key to run Burke profitably is the hotel.   The future buyer will get the hotel for next to nothing and he might be able to profitably run it, something that appeared impossible to do if you had to finance its construction.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I think the key to run Burke profitably is the hotel.   The future buyer will get the hotel for next to nothing and he might be able to profitably run it, something that appeared impossible to do if you had to finance its construction.



Agreed.  The hotel will sell for much less than the actual construction costs.  This will give the hotel a chance of running at a profit.

Even with the hotel Burke is not an easy sell.  It has a lot going for it, but it's never going to make much money.  IMHO, the best case scenario is that the ski area loses money but the hotel brings in enough to make a VERY modest profit overall.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

Thats the part that I can't seem to get my head around. You have approximately 110 limited partners combined with Quiros that owns the general partnership. If it sells for, say for half the construction costs, you are in effect cutting each of the limited partners ownership to 250K. I can't understand how that helps the investors, since it immediately would put their investment loses at 250K. It would seem better to sell the actual ski resort and transfer the general partnership in the hotel to the new ski resort owners. The price for Q Burke would increase based on the potential income from the hotel operations. The money generated by the sale would be going to the group of investors at AncBio - who appear to be the only ones that have lost money. I would also hope the the government would allow the EB-5 offering at Q Burke be modified to remove the pool and tennis facilities. The same would hold true for Jay Peak, with a substantially higher sale price.


----------



## River19 (Apr 22, 2016)

I used to do some consulting and number crunching on the side for some commercial real estate investors and as a quick rule of thumb they would touch a commercial property (hotel, office building, multi family etc.) for a price that didn't yield a cap rate of 10% min.  Obviously there are many other reasons to buy a property such as Burke Mountain, but from the perspective these guys take things......the "resort" would have to have free cash flow of $2.5M per year to justify a $25M acquisition cost.....

Again, it will be worth whatever someone wants to pay for it and everyone establishes value a different way.  The tricky part here is there is no established business at the hotel.  So there is significant risk involved.  It will come down to someone building multiple pro forma scenarios and then establishing a large margin of safety based on their risk tolerance and goals.

Whenever this thing sells, it will be complicated......but WTF do I know..........lol


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 22, 2016)

The hotel will lose money on a yearly basis. Without any improvements to the ski area no one will want to stay at the hotel. With the ski area only operating late Dec to beginning of April who the hell is going to stay there late April through November? Mtn Bikers? I doubt it. Maybe a few weddings for locals.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2016)

KingdomBC said:


> At some of the passholder meetings *there was a guy there name George Gulisano, self-introduced as "just a bean counter".  He was (is?) the CFO for Q Resorts and was essentially Ari Sr's employee.  On the BOD for Burke as the CFO as well.  Spends half of his time in VT and the other half in Miami (shuffling money?).*



Well this is certainly interesting info, hopefully the SEC is currently all up in this guy's business as well.  Whoever looked at these transactions and accounting entries would have almost immediately known something is fishy.



Smellytele said:


> *The hotel will lose money on a yearly basis. Without any improvements to the ski area no one will want to stay at the hotel. With the ski area only operating late Dec to beginning of April who the hell is going to stay there late April through November? *



Agreed.

Which is why this "project" was only built via "free money" and not investor funds.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well this is certainly interesting info, hopefully the SEC is currently all up in this guy's business as well.  Whoever looked at these transactions and accounting entries would have almost immediately known something is fishy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am sure that you have said this before, but what is the hangup with the EB-5 program? I can't understand what you find so wrong with it. Just trying to get some insight into why you have such an issue with the, as you say, "free money". 

To be honest, I don't think that the hotel project was actually a bad idea of Q Burke, to at least keep the place alive. Without it, it wouldn't be operating or if operating, on a shoe-string budget or at a loss.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2016)




----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 23, 2016)

*Update on Jay Peak and Q Burke One Week After SEC Raid and Takeover

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=427


*


> [FONT=Georgia, Arial]At Q Burke, receiver Michael  Goldberg successfully *added the Q Burke Hotel to the receivership*,  potentially paving the way to the opening of the idle facility.  As of  last week, Quiros’s son remains employed at Q Burke.[/FONT]


*




			[FONT=Georgia, Arial][/FONT]
		
Click to expand...

*


> [FONT=Georgia, Arial]At a hearing on Friday, a judge  allowed $750,000 to be borrowed *to operate Q Burke for the next three  months.*  Ironically, the judge is allowing various Jay Peak and Q Burke  accounts to be co-mingled to fund the borrowing, an action similar to  what the SEC accused Quiros and Stenger of doing.  According to a court  document, *Q Burke may have over $1 million in Accounts Payable*[/FONT]*[FONT=Georgia, Arial].[/FONT]*


*
*


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> *Update on Jay Peak and Q Burke One Week After SEC Raid and Takeover
> 
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=427
> 
> ...



That's pretty thin. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I am sure that you have said this before, but what is the hangup with the EB-5 program? I can't understand what you find so wrong with it.



Sarcasm?

I assume this is sarcasm, but if my sarcasm detector is off, please go back to my initial posts in this thread and the other EB-5 thread(s) circa 2011 or 2012.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2016)

> *“The EB-5 funding clouds, I think, people’s judgment because you are not  required to pay traditional principal and interest payments, which is  usually substantial. So people tend to maybe overbuild and spend more  than they should” *



Golly, where have we heard this before!

 I think I like this new receivership guy (even if he does wear a suit & tie in n.VT).


----------



## mbedle (Apr 24, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sarcasm?
> 
> I assume this is sarcasm, but if my sarcasm detector is off, please go back to my initial posts in this thread and the other EB-5 thread(s) circa 2011 or 2012.



It wasn't sarcasm - I honestly did not know what your issues were with the EB-5 program. I looked back at some of your earlier post and now understand your reasonings.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 26, 2016)

I can understand the issue with eb-5 money in reguard to traditional borrowing payback structuring but I sure cant fault any business for trying to take advantage(legally and the way it was suppossed to work) of this "FREE" money.And it definately brouught many construction and fulltime jobs with it..The problem is obviously the oversight of all that money.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I can understand the issue with eb-5 money in reguard to traditional borrowing payback structuring but I sure cant fault any business for trying to take advantage(legally and the way it was suppossed to work) of this "FREE" money.And it definately brouught many construction and fulltime jobs with it..The problem is obviously the oversight of all that money.



You certainly can't blame business for (within the law) taking advantage of EB-5.  The program may be flawed, but only a fool would ignore it for that reason.


----------



## crank (Apr 26, 2016)

Just read a tweet from VPR that the Q is now gone and Burke is Burke.  A positive development for sure.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

Also just heard on VPR that "two high-end hotel chains" are visiting the Hotel today.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 26, 2016)

> Quiros added a Q to Burke Mountain’s name when he bought it, but Goldberg said the mountain will revert to its former name.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Also just heard on VPR that "two high-end hotel chains" are visiting the Hotel today.



And it is snowing like crazy!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

crank said:


> Just read a tweet from VPR that the Q is now gone and Burke is Burke.  A positive development for sure.



The Q might be gone from the official name but I doubt the receiver management team is going to spend a lot of money re-signing everything. They will probably leave that up to whoever buys the place.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And it is snowing like crazy!



Qarma at work.  The day it is announced that the Q is dropped it snows!!!!


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Qarma at work.  The day it is announced that the Q is dropped it snows!!!!



+1

Its a good thing the Q is gone.  We need a great snow year to keep this place going!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> it definately brouught many construction and fulltime jobs with it..



No, it really didn't. 

 What it brings are transient, short-term jobs, and many of which aren't even filled by locals of the depressed area as is intended.  The "many full-time" long-term jobs thing, is the BS that the pols feed you so that you believe this is a great thing.



from_the_NEK said:


> And it is snowing like crazy!



Ullr knew the Quiros-crew was no good, and he wrought his punishment on the mountains!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it really didn't.
> 
> What it brings are transient, short-term jobs, and many of which aren't even filled by locals of the depressed area as is intended.  The "many full-time" long-term jobs thing, is the BS that the pols feed you so that you believe this is a great thing.
> 
> ...



BG--I asked this rhetorical question last week and wonder if you have any thoughts.  The question was why is the EB-5 program, in particular, a magnet for fraud and abuse?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it really didn't.
> 
> What it brings are transient, short-term jobs, and many of which aren't even filled by locals of the depressed area as is intended.  The "many full-time" long-term jobs thing, is the BS that the pols feed you so that you believe this is a great thing.



Yes and No. 

My brother and uncle live in the Quechee area. They are both General Contractors.  They would not be able to live or survive in that area without second home owners. There wouldn't be enough things to build or fix.  I've got numerous friends in construction trades in Stowe - same thing.  

The numbers are definitely inflated by the Pols, no argument there. The majority of the jobs are seasonal and low wage.  However, the amount of construction / property maintenance jobs these developments create isn't insignificant.  In turn, these are many of the people supporting 12 month a year services in those areas.   So, I wouldn't say these developments are all for not.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes and No.
> 
> My brother and uncle live in the Quechee area. They are both General Contractors.  They would not be able to live or survive in that area without second home owners. There wouldn't be enough things to build or fix.  I've got numerous friends in construction trades in Stowe - same thing.
> 
> The numbers are definitely inflated by the Pols, no argument there. The majority of the jobs are seasonal and low wage.  However, the amount of construction / property maintenance jobs these developments create isn't insignificant.  In turn, these are many of the people supporting 12 month a year services in those areas.   So, I wouldn't say these developments are all for not.



Okay, I'll bite.  How does building a hotel at the base of Burke result in an increase in jobs for people who do construction for second home owners?  Maybe I just missed your point.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Okay, I'll bite.  How does building a hotel at the base of Burke result in an increase in jobs for people who do construction for second home owners?  Maybe I just missed your point.



The Burke hotel (eventually) and the ones at Jay drive second home construction in those areas.  

 And even the hotels themselves when built still require maintenance. Those workers aren't getting imported.  Larger projects that arent taken care of by in house maintenance staff will get subbed out to local contractors over time.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> The Burke hotel (eventually) and the ones at Jay drive second home construction in those areas.
> 
> And even the hotels themselves when built still require maintenance. Those workers aren't getting imported.  Larger projects that arent taken care of by in house maintenance staff will get subbed out to local contractors over time.



Gotcha.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

> Goldberg's investigation shows that *for fiscal year 2015*, beginning May  1, 2014 and ending April 30, 2015, *Jay Peak made about $3 million.* *For  fiscal year 2014, that figure was $2.6 million*, Goldberg writes, and*  through February of this year, it appears Jay Peak is on track to make a  mere $1.8 million* for fiscal year 2016.



Considering all the SNT (Shiny New Toys) at play here, these numbers (if true) are not very impressive.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *why is the EB-5 program, in particular, a magnet for fraud and abuse?*



1) It's a government program, so incompetence is intrinsic & inherent.
2) There's no economic moral hazard to "free money" (wrote about this extensively circa 2011/12, most thought I was wrong).
3) The only TRUE stakeholders, are foreigners who have no control, and have essentially given up all their rights.
4) Financial incentives at the core structure of EB-5 encourages abuse (X # of jobs per $500,000 in job poor areas).

This is all a recipe for disaster.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

> "The system is 52 years old," Goldberg writes. "The gondola's  manufacturer, which is the only company in the world capable of properly  repairing the gondola, has quoted the Jay Peak Resort a *$4.15 million  price to complete the repairs*," Goldberg wrote.




As most here know, I friggin' hate the Jay Peak tram, and like many people who ski Jay Peak, I dont even bother to ski the top of the mountain because we hate the excessively long waits.

Given the estimate to fix this *52 year old* tram is $4.15 Million, I'm going to assume a 10% overrun and put the true cost at $4.6M.  Why not scrap the stupid, space-consuming, loathsome thing, altogether, spend $4.5M to $5.5M and put in a high-speed quad?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Considering all the SNT (Shiny New Toys) at play here, these numbers (if true) are not very impressive.



You mean making $2 million or so a year off of a $350 million investment isn't so hot?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> As most here know, I friggin' hate the Jay Peak tram, and like many people who ski Jay Peak, I dont even bother to ski the top of the mountain because we hate the excessively long waits.
> 
> Given the estimate to fix this *52 year old* tram is $4.15 Million, I'm going to assume a 10% overrun and put the true cost at $4.6M.  Why not scrap the stupid, space-consuming, loathsome thing, altogether, spend $4.5M to $5.5M and put in a high-speed quad?



As much as I hate the tram, and I do hate the tram, wouldn't a high speed quad put way too many skiers on the top of the mountain?  The trail up top would be seriously scraped off within an hour.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> As most here know, I friggin' hate the Jay Peak tram, and like many people who ski Jay Peak, I dont even bother to ski the top of the mountain because we hate the excessively long waits.
> 
> Given the estimate to fix this *52 year old* tram is $4.15 Million, I'm going to assume a 10% overrun and put the true cost at $4.6M.  Why not scrap the stupid, space-consuming, loathsome thing, altogether, spend $4.5M to $5.5M and put in a high-speed quad?



A HSQ from the base to the summit is impractical. The Flyer is already ridiculously long. 
The tram also provides sightseeing rides year round and provides direct access to the summit building for weddings and other events that are held there. The limited number of summit trails couldn't handle the skier traffic a HSQ would drop up there either.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Given the estimate to fix this *52 year old* tram is $4.15 Million, I'm going to assume a 10% overrun and put the true cost at $4.6M.  Why not scrap the stupid, space-consuming, loathsome thing, altogether, spend $4.5M to $5.5M and put in a high-speed quad?



Not bad.  NYC spent $25 million to renovate the spiderman ski lift next to the Ed Koch Queensborough 59th Street Bridge.  And probably another $10 million to come up with 3 different names for the same bridge, but I digress.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Considering all the SNT (Shiny New Toys) at play here, these numbers (if true) are not very impressive.



Agreed.  However, the upside is that they were able to turn a profit in one of the worst winter ever and this bodes well once competent management takes over.   In addition, the figures may turn out to be different once all of the shenanigans are untangled.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> A HSQ from the base to the summit is impractical. The Flyer is already ridiculously long.
> The tram also provides sightseeing rides year round and provides direct access to the summit building for weddings and other events that are held there. The limited number of summit trails couldn't handle the skier traffic a HSQ would drop up there either.



This.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This.



Agreed.  Plus the steep terrain just does not make a HSQ to the top realistic.


----------



## Sheave Head (Apr 26, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This.



Also the tram can run in higher winds then a HSQ and let's not pretend that isn't a problem there


----------



## MG Skier (Apr 26, 2016)

Having been alone on the Flyer/Freezer on a windy day, wind is a major concern.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> Having been alone on the Flyer/Freezer on a windy day, wind is a major concern.



I was stuck alone for 15 minutes on a -40 wind chill day.  I was starting to seriously fear for my life when the chair finally started again.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I was stuck alone for 15 minutes on a -40 wind chill day.  I was starting to seriously fear for my life when the chair finally started again.



Sounds like a scene from this (lousy) ski movie:


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

Wow.  I come I've never heard of this before????


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Wow.  I come I've never heard of this before????



Because it was a TERRIBLE movie.  Supposed to be set in New England....yet it was filmed at Snowbasin, Utah.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2016)

That looks terrible on so many levels. I never heard of it either. Did none of them have cell phones? Did ski patrol not sweep or visually check the lift line? Maybe these questions were answered in the movie...but I'm not about to watch it to find out!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

cdskier said:


> That looks terrible on so many levels. I never heard of it either. Did none of them have cell phones? Did ski patrol not sweep or visually check the lift line? Maybe these questions were answered in the movie...but I'm not about to watch it to find out!


It is pretty unrealistic on just about every level. :smash:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *You mean making $2 million or so a year off of a $350 million investment isn't so hot?*



Something like that, yes.



VTKilarney said:


> *As much as I hate the tram, and I do hate the tram, wouldn't a high speed quad put way too many skiers on the top of the mountain? *



You do the high speed quad to St. George's prayer (this way intermediates are better served and the top doesnt get scraped off).    

Then you have a short double either from near the top of that quad or from near the Flyer unload to the top.  

Having a double so folks can actually enjoy Green Beret, Valhalla, and other aspects up there would be phenomenal, and greatly improve JP's total skiability.

The reality is, the Tram stinks, and anyone who disagrees is worse than Hitler.


----------



## Edd (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Something like that, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I hate it too. It sure looks cool, but the wait times make no sense to me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Something like that, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That would be back to the future....








Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

Edd said:


> Yeah, I hate it too. It sure looks cool, but the wait times make no sense to me.



Especially since most people wait and proceed to ski the Vermonter or Northway.
To wait 30 minutes and ski upper Northway should be punishable by law.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *That would be back to the future....*



Exactly; it's such a ridiculously obvious concept, that it's obvious why it was originally the concept.



fbrissette said:


> Especially since most people wait and proceed to ski the Vermonter or Northway.
> *To wait 30 minutes and ski upper Northway should be punishable by law.*



The Jay Peak Tram crowd are not what one calls, "savvy" skiers.  

Tram skiers are the people who leave their skis on the ground in congested traffic base areas while they take 2 hour lunches, and attach lift tickets to their center zipper (thank god for RFID).


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it really didn't.
> 
> What it brings are transient, short-term jobs, and many of which aren't even filled by locals of the depressed area as is intended.  The "many full-time" long-term jobs thing, is the BS that the pols feed you so that you believe this is a great thing.
> 
> ...



I was more refering to Jay than Burke.There are certainly many year round jobs that have been created at Jay through this whole eb-5 debacle.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I was more refering to Jay than Burke.*There are certainly many year round jobs that have been created at Jay through this whole eb-5 debacle.*



No there haven't.   First, I'd disagree with that premise entirely.  

 But even if you disagree as you do, there are clearly not nearly enough jobs as required by the program to justify the egregious sums involved here.   Show me the "thousands" (literally) of new full-time jobs in an around Orleans County.  The counting is so fraudulent it's insulting to the general public's intelligence.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No there haven't.   First, I'd disagree with that premise entirely.
> 
> But even if you disagree as you do, there are clearly not nearly enough jobs as required by the program to justify the egregious sums involved here.   Show me the "thousands" (literally) of new full-time jobs in an around Orleans County.  The counting is so fraudulent it's insulting to the general public's intelligence.



You are wrong and right.  Jay Peak used to have 30 employees in the summer.  Now it's several hundreds.   Many year-round jobs have indeed been created.  Still far from the few thousands it was supposed to create however.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

So back to Burke.  Any word as to if Electric Mike or Ary have been shown the door?


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That would be back to the future....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This should be done even with the tram being fixed


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

Goldberg says they are going to start changing the signage to drop the "Q"! Interesting that they would take on that expense.
(I'm listening to the press conference http://www.wcax.com/story/24396596/watch-live-coverage-onwcaxcom)


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Goldberg says they are going to start changing the signage to drop the "Q"! Interesting that they would take on that expense.
> (I'm listening to the press conference http://www.wcax.com/story/24396596/watch-live-coverage-onwcaxcom)



"Burke will probably be sold first....."  

Interesting.

And, of course, Shumlin wants to shut it down quickly.  Not quick enough... 

"Do you think that the State will be sued for its representations..."

"You did say on the video that the State audited the projects?"

  Paul Heintz for the win.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Goldberg says they are going to start changing the signage to drop the "Q"! Interesting that they would take on that expense.
> (I'm listening to the press conference http://www.wcax.com/story/24396596/watch-live-coverage-onwcaxcom)



Maybe they think removing the Q will help distance themselves from the previous regime and will help prevent future potential buyers from being scared away


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Goldberg says they are going to start changing the signage to drop the "Q"! Interesting that they would take on that expense.



Money well spent in my opinion.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

They can probably find many volunteers who would do it for free.


----------



## Edd (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Goldberg says they are going to start changing the signage to drop the "Q"! Interesting that they would take on that expense.



Could be some well spent marketing dollars to lure pissed off customers back.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Maybe they think removing the Q will help distance themselves from the previous regime and will help prevent future potential buyers from being scared away



+1.

Exactly.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm pretty sure any potential owners are going to be well aware of the "Q". But then new ownership may want to come in with their own spin on the branding. Thus the potential for two new logos/names within a year.

Just removing the Qs from everything in the hotel will be a major undertaking (it is literally EVERYWHERE).

And when he says "Burke will be sold first" I'm wondering if he is talking about the hotel or the entire resort (hoping for the latter).


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And when he says "Burke will be sold first" I'm wondering if he is talking about the hotel or the entire resort (hoping for the latter).



That was an interesting comment.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> "Burke will probably be sold first....."
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> ...



That reporter is very astute. Shumlin personally assured potential investors in the sales video that the EB-5 projects would be "audited" by the state of Vermont. Once the losses are tallied you can bet there will be claims against the state. Why not?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> That reporter is very astute. Shumlin personally assured potential investors in the sales video that the EB-5 projects would be "audited" by the state of Vermont. Once the losses are tallied you can bet there will be claims against the state. Why not?



Exactly.  You did not miss the ball either.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

Here is the 32 minute conference.  

http://www.wcax.com/story/31829194/officials-jay-peak-will-remain-open


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *You are wrong and right.  Jay Peak used to have 30 employees in the summer.  Now it's several hundreds.   *Many year-round jobs have indeed been created.  *Still far from the few thousands it was supposed to create* however.



Which means I'm 100% right, as there are nowhere near the thousands of jobs promised, which was the entire point of this madness.

  A_ "few hundred"_ jobs is an economic pittance, and dont forget, part-time jobs do not count, you need FTE for the math, and I doubt there were even "a few hundred" new and sustainable FTE created in total.   The reality is, it's a joke, a boondoggle, and trying to defend the summation of job's created in the NEK from this trainwreck is really a futile exercise in putting lipstick on a pig at this late date.  The sad thing is, people enriched themselves by preying on people's economic fears and hopes for a better tomorrow.




JoeB-Z said:


> That reporter is very astute. Shumlin personally assured potential investors in the sales video that the EB-5 projects would be "audited" by the state of Vermont. *Once the losses are tallied you can bet there will be claims against the state. *Why not?



Good.  I hope State of Vermont bleeds.  Maybe then the dopey voters up there will finally hold people accountable.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Good.  I hope State of Vermont bleeds.  Maybe then the dopey voters up there will finally hold people accountable.



Nah, they went right back to the utopian discussions instead of facing the real issues that face Vermont.  Ethics Commission for the Legislature?  Nah, that's boring.  Legalize pot?  Wahoo!


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Good.  I hope State of Vermont bleeds.  Maybe then the dopey voters up there will finally hold people accountable.


I haven't heard any outcry from Vermonters about Shumlin raising the gas taxes to pay for the $2m or so the state lost trying to implement a single payer healthcare system. Vermonters are just comfortably numb.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which means I'm 100% right, as there are nowhere near the thousands of jobs promised, which was the entire point of this madness.



To be fair, you pretty much implied that no job was created.  Even if these are not awesome jobs, you don't run a golf course, a waterpark, 1 arena, three hotels and hundreds of other lodging units without a significant number of people.   

You are most definitely correct for the rest.


----------



## benski (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I haven't heard any outcry from Vermonters about Shumlin raising the gas taxes to pay for the $2m or so the state lost trying to implement a single payer healthcare system. Vermonters are just comfortably numb.



They want gas to be more expensive to reduce demand, since gas is bad for the environment.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> To be fair, you pretty much implied that no job was created.  Even if these are not awesome jobs, you don't run a golf course, a waterpark, 1 arena, three hotels and hundreds of other lodging units without a significant number of people.
> 
> You are most definitely correct for the rest.



Just to be fair, they don't just count the job created by the new company. They also count the indirect jobs created outside of the business to support the business. That is where I believe they get most of the job count and that is also where I think the majority of number fudging occurs. I would love to see some of the petitions to remove the conditions of the visas. It would be very telling on how these jobs are accounted for. My guess is they use jobs like, more tourist results in more people needed to sell gas at the local convenient store. If the company that they purchase soap from hires a new employee to increase product of said soap, they can count that as a job. Hell, if a person that bakes cookies that get sold in the hotel, starts a business, that counts as a job. Apparently there are models that are used to determine these numbers. I am trying to get an example of one just to see the madness.  Plus you can count the construction jobs if the project last longer than 2 years. Another good reason to extend the construction of these project over multiple years.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

http://www.cost.org/uploadedFiles/C...s/M. Press Article Economic Impact Report.pdf

Example report.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

I also believe that in 2009 the USCIS started to allow some of the seasonal works at the resort to count for some job creation. I think this is tied to the seasonal nature of the ski business.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> To be fair, *you pretty much implied that no job was created.*  Even if these are not awesome jobs, you don't run a golf course, a waterpark, 1 arena, three hotels and hundreds of other lodging units without a significant number of people.
> 
> You are most definitely correct for the rest.



It's silly if you interpreted my comments as that I literally meant that not a single full-time job was ever created.



benski said:


> *They want gas to be more expensive to reduce demand, since gas is bad for the environment.*



If true, that's an extremist belief. 

 Not to mention, it dramatically and disproportionately economically harms the most poorest members of society, who ostensibly, are the ones the progressive movement routinely claims to be helping.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I haven't heard any outcry from Vermonters about Shumlin raising the gas taxes to pay for the $2m or so the state lost trying to implement a single payer healthcare system. Vermonters are just comfortably numb.



$2 million?  Try $200 million for a website that doesn't work!

Now back to Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> If true, that's an extremist belief.
> 
> Not to mention, it dramatically and disproportionately economically harms the most poorest members of society, who ostensibly, are the ones the progressive movement routinely claims to be helping.



Oh it's true.  They have been pushing to be the first with a carbon tax and to increase taxes on fossil fuels to reduce demand.  When asked about the poor, the response is a blank stare.

Egad, back to Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

Now back on topic...this looks better:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Now back on topic...this looks better:



Is that new?  Already?    If so, these guys don't mess around, I like it.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that new?  Already?    If so, these guys don't mess around, I like it.


Existing sign with the "Q" logo taken off of it.

Most other signs will not be so easy to "fix".


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

Although a very reliable source on the Friends of Burke FB group just post that 





> All Q signs were taken down today!!














I almost hope Q Jr is still around to witness the physical removal of the "Q".


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that new?  Already?    If so, these guys don't mess around, I like it.



Oh it was an easy fix I am sure.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

The only problem I have with that is none of the problems with this resort have anything to do with the actually name of the resort or the stupid logo. A simple gesture to appease people, with no real purpose to improve the resort's situation.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> The only problem I have with that is none of the problems with this resort have anything to do with the actually name of the resort or the stupid logo. *A simple gesture to appease people, with no real purpose to improve the resort's situation.*



Perhaps, but it's a "sign" (no pun intended) and symbolic of change.  It needs to be done.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Perhaps, but it's a "sign" (no pun intended) and symbolic of change.  It needs to be done.



Agree with you there. I guess I am the type of guy that just doesn't need something done for a symbolic reason. I think you actually just said something like - "its putting lipstick on a pig". Thats kind of what I think about getting rid of the Q at this point and not waiting until after the new owners take over. No matter what - the Q was ultimately going to get dropped from the name and logos. And I can guarantee the new owners will elect to not change it again.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> A simple gesture to appease people, with no real purpose to improve the resort's situation.



How exactly does appeasing the locals and a good share of southern New Englanders who frequent(ed) Burke who have been completely alienated by the "Q"  not improve the resort's situation? With the "Q" gone both physically and symbolically, people are going to feel a lot better about spending their money at Burke (me included).
I think this will really help boost summer attendance at summer activities at the mountain this year.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's silly if you interpreted my comments as that I literally meant that not a single full-time job was ever created.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Skier skier said:  *There are certainly many year round jobs that have been created at Jay through this whole eb-5 debacle.
> ...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *There are certainly many year round jobs that have been created at Jay through this whole eb-5 debacle.
> 
> *To which you replied:   _*No there haven't.
> 
> *_*Most reasonable people would without a doubt agree that 'several hundreds' qualifies as 'many'.   It's silly you don't think so.*



1)  I rejected his premise that _"several hundreds"_ of FTEs were created to begin with.

So there's that important fact....., but regardless of that,

2) As I prior noted, when _"several thousand"_ is your bogey, even _"several hundred"_ (which I doubt) is a complete, and utter, failure.

In other words, several hundred, even if true, is economically trivial against plan, trivial against funding, trivial against......this sorry trainwreck.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> How exactly does appeasing the locals and a good share of southern New Englanders who frequent(ed) Burke who have been completely alienated by the "Q"  not improve the resort's situation? With the "Q" gone both physically and symbolically, people are going to feel a lot better about spending their money at Burke (me included).
> I think this will really help boost summer attendance at summer activities at the mountain this year.



Removing Quiros from the ownership should make you and everybody else feel a lot better. I did, nor do not disagree with that.  I just don't get hung up on the name of the resort - it is not something that means anything to me. If a new owner came in and purchased Stowe and called it Q Stowe - it would not, in anyway, change my love for the place. Put it this way - if Quirus came in and spent 20 million on snow making, and ran the resort good and had the hotel open, and didn't fire anyone and whatever else everyone has a gripe with - would the issue with the name "Q" be a big deal? I would say not, but maybe to some people that would be enough to not support the resort. That is just how I feel about it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Removing Quiros from the ownership should make you and everybody else feel a lot better. I did, nor do not disagree with that.  I just don't get hung up on the name of the resort - it is not something that means anything to me. If a new owner came in and purchased Stowe and called it Q Stowe - it would not, in anyway, change my love for the place. Put it this way - if Quirus came in and spent 20 million on snow making, and ran the resort good and had the hotel open, and didn't fire anyone and whatever else everyone has a gripe with - would the issue with the name "Q" be a big deal? I would say not, but maybe to some people that would be enough to not support the resort. That is just how I feel about it.



But he didn't do any of that.  So that is moot.  Also be sure to read:

https://www.saminfo.com/best-worst-in-marketing/4273-best-worst-marketing-2013-14


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> 1)  I rejected his premise that _"several hundreds"_ of FTEs were created to begin with.
> 
> So there's that important fact....., but regardless of that,
> 
> ...



Do you really believe that they haven't generated several hundred of new jobs at Jay peak? And, as I posted earlier, it doesn't matter how many jobs they created at Jay Peak or even in Orleans Co. If all was built out by these EB-5 programs happened, they would have had to generate 7,000 FTE. It was obvious to everyone that those employees would not be from Orleans Co., with a populations of 27K.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

Be sure to listen tomorrow and ask questions if you have any:

http://digital.vpr.net/post/what-nowwhats-next-nek


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> If a new owner came in and purchased Stowe and called it Q Stowe - it would not, in anyway, change my love for the place. Put it this way - if Quirus came in and spent 20 million on snow making, and ran the resort good and had the hotel open, and didn't fire anyone and whatever else everyone has a gripe with - would the issue with the name "Q" be a big deal?



The big deal for me with the Q is it's completely arrogant.  It's the equivalent of a dog pissing on the place as "mine." It also places the Qs above the community and everything else in the NEK that makes Burke, Burke.  

I'm a traditionalist and when you've got a place like Burke or Stowe with the history they have; town, resort and many businesses sharing in the identify, you leave it alone. The role is to be a steward of the mountain until it's time for the next owner after you move on.

If anyone changed the name of Stowe, there would be a far more severe reaction than what happened at Burke.  

If  they had left the resort as just Burke and maybe called the hotel, "Q Hotel at Burke Mountain Resort", people wouldn't be so annoyed.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 27, 2016)

Being a relative Newb to this forum and not knowing the history of Burke I interpreted the "Q" as a durogitory poke at the previous owners LOL . After reading lots of posts I think keeping the Q and adding an "F" temporarily  would be therapeutic for the locals.

Actually Eb-5 has created lots of jobs , just not where intended. Lots of lawyers will be working overtime!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

I think that the mistake of adding a Q was amplified by poor decisions that were made early on - such as severing ties with Kingdom Trails and bashing the largest benefactor of the ski area.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> *Do you really believe that they haven't generated several hundred of new jobs at Jay peak?*



Correct.

You've got a hotel, a waterpark, and a rink.  

 As someone who has spent a decent chunk of time in ice houses, I promise you they don't have many full-time employees.

Nor do waterparks require that many folks to run either.  

So that leaves you with a moderately-sized hotel.

*Hundreds* of new full-time sustainable jobs?    For the life of me, I don't see how.  We sure as hell know it wasn't from hiring additional financial analysts and accountants, that's for sure.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

Sorry, BG but you are wrong on this one.  I've seen the transformation fist hand, while it is obvious you've never been to Jay in the summer or set foot in the waterpark.

We're talking a golf course, three hotels, 7 restaurants/snacks, a waterpark, one arcade, one ice rink, three shops, a small grocery/souvenir store that all need more than one shifts for most positions.   You now need a larger finance department, a larger marketing department, HR, an army of landscapers/gardeners.  You need an IT department, mechanics, electrician etc...

They have 70 weddings planned this summer, hockey tournaments and camps, figure skating camps, they have several daycamps groups every week, music concerts and special events (e.g. porsche event).  You need hundreds of people to run all those things. 

May be it's possible to do it with 50 people in BG land but not in the real world.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *Sorry, BG but you are wrong on this one.  I've seen the transformation fist hand*, while it is obvious you've never been to Jay in the summer or set foot in the waterpark.
> 
> We're talking a golf course, three hotels, 7 restaurants/snacks, a waterpark, one arcade, one ice rink, three shops, a small grocery/souvenir store that all need more than one shifts for most positions.   You now need a larger finance department, a larger marketing department, HR, an army of landscapers/gardeners.  You need an IT department, mechanics, electrician etc...
> 
> ...



Put a number on it then, how many FTE's do you believe Jay Peak has that are 100% attributable to EB-5?   It isn't much.  Golf course?  Very few people, and frankly with the exception of a few folks, they're entirely seasonal anyway.

Here's the reality......the accounting for the jobs created is entirely fraudulent, just look at these posted claims (and keep in mind, most transient construction jobs are not supposed to be counted in the metrics).

*Tram House*
350 Jobs   (How? It's not exactly the MGM Grand in Las Vegas)

*Hotel Jay & water park, ice arena, golf course, club house & conf. center*
3,500 Jobs (This would rival Fletcher Allen, ~ Vermont's largest employer)

*Stateside Hotel/Baselodge*
1,340 Jobs (Really?!?!?)

I realize this one isnt Jay Peak, but I'm including it for fun since it's always been my favorite.

*AnC Bio*
2,300 Jobs (I don't even know where to begin)


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

Dude, how many times do I have to say this: I agree with the above.

They created hundreds of jobs nonetheless.  The golf course jobs are occupied by people who used to have part time jobs in the winter and now have full time jobs.

Just come one week-end and count the goddam people.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Sorry, BG but you are wrong on this one.  I've seen the transformation fist hand, while it is obvious you've never been to Jay in the summer or set foot in the waterpark.
> 
> We're talking a golf course, three hotels, 7 restaurants/snacks, a waterpark, one arcade, one ice rink, three shops, a small grocery/souvenir store that all need more than one shifts for most positions.   You now need a larger finance department, a larger marketing department, HR, an army of landscapers/gardeners.  You need an IT department, mechanics, electrician etc...
> 
> ...


How many jobs do you suspect the new reservoir at Mt. Snow will create at a cost of $30m? Don't forget they use a lot of automated fan guns.

Dr. Jeff in 3-2-1


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> $2 million?  Try $200 million for a website that doesn't work!
> 
> Now back to Burke.


What's a couple of zero's amongst friends


----------



## JimG. (Apr 27, 2016)

Can't wait for summer.


----------



## zeke (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> 1)  I rejected his premise that _"several hundreds"_ of FTEs were created to begin with.
> 
> So there's that important fact....., but regardless of that,.



Classic that you rejecting someone's premise is an "important fact"


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'm pretty sure any potential owners are going to be well aware of the "Q". But then new ownership may want to come in with their own spin on the branding. Thus the potential for two new logos/names within a year.
> 
> Just removing the Qs from everything in the hotel will be a major undertaking (it is literally EVERYWHERE).
> 
> And when he says "Burke will be sold first" I'm wondering if he is talking about the hotel or the entire resort (hoping for the latter).






> - The room filled with laughter when they discussed how many Q's had  been placed all over the hotel and what it would take to remove them  all.


 :grin:


----------



## chrisinvermont (Apr 28, 2016)

zeke said:


> Classic that you rejecting someone's premise is an "important fact"




The important fact here is there were 700 investors and each is required to create 10 jobs. This is total of 7,000 new Full-time jobs required. If we use the optimistic numbers cited of "several hundred" jobs we are not even 1/10 of the way to the requirement. 

The important fact for the NEK is that even if 500 jobs were created, it's only 7.14% of the jobs required and promised. Investors will not be getting green cards and the people of the NEK are not getting the high paid jobs they were promised. No manufacturing or tech jobs as promised for the window manufacturer or bio plant. Only GWB would declare this "mission accomplished"


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 28, 2016)

No one's denying that the program falls well short of the FTEs promised.  Everyone is in agreement there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

chrisinvermont said:


> The important fact for the NEK is that even if 500 jobs were created, it's only 7.14% of the jobs required and promised. *Investors will not be getting green cards* and the people of the NEK are not getting the high paid jobs they were promised. No manufacturing or tech jobs as promised for the window manufacturer or bio plant. Only GWB would declare this "mission accomplished"


You are correct except for one thing.  For the completed (and open) projects, the investors have been given green cards.  Thus BG's point about how absurd the job creation metric is.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You are correct except for one thing.  For the completed (and open) projects, the investors have been given green cards.  Thus BG's point about how absurd the job creation metric is.



Yup. And this is one of the major flaws in the EB5 program. The investors should not get green cards until they actually create (and prove that they created!) the jobs required. The metrics now are ridiculous.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Yup. And this is one of the major flaws in the EB5 program. The investors should not get green cards until they actually create (and prove that they created!) the jobs required. The metrics now are ridiculous.



Everything was screwed up to begin with.   Creating 10 permanent jobs with a 500k investment is mission impossible, even if you don't pay the 500k back.   If it was that easy, the government would do it non-stop.   The would recoup their investment through taxes in a few years.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> 1)  I rejected his premise that _"several hundreds"_ of FTEs were created to begin with.
> 
> So there's that important fact....., but regardless of that,
> 
> ...


Wrong wrong 100% wrong.fbrisswette was exactly right.I never said they created hunderds of jobs.Get your facts straight.I said "There are certainly many year round jobs that have been created at Jay through this whole eb-5 debacle".You replied "No there haven't".Not sure how twisted my post into you being correct.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

Re:  FTEs.  I think the argument that there needed to be 10 jobs for every investor created at Jay Peak Resort itself is too literal of an interpretation of the provision.  There is no dispute that Stenger et al were saying that the job creation included the resort itself, construction jobs, suppliers, etc.  As one example:  if the Hotel ordered 500 pillows and a pillow maker in Indiana had to hire one more full time person to meet the demand, then that job counts.  

I don't think it can be disputed that Jay, which had maybe 30 people in the summer, and now has several hundred year-round has expanded.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

Posted on Facebook:


> I have just been told, at 8:30 this morning, Ary was escorted off the property!


----------



## JimG. (Apr 28, 2016)

Where's the sunscreen?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Posted on Facebook:


Finally, the exorcism is complete.

I hope someone loaded his Land Rover up with a bunch of Q signs to take with him :smile:.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> How many jobs do you suspect the new reservoir at Mt. Snow will create at a cost of $30m? Don't forget they use a lot of automated fan guns.
> 
> Dr. Jeff in 3-2-1



The only point of information I'll make here, is that the reservoir itself cost far less than 30 million and is done already and paid for with Peak's own money thus far (part of the roughly 12 million they spent on the project last summer, and not all that was on the reservoir proper, there was about 75000 ft of snowmaking pipe replacement last summer included in that 12 million dollar figure as well) and Peak is expecting to be reimbursed via the EB-5 money they have in escrow awaiting release once the VISA applications are reviewed (this is apparently allowed as well per the EB-5 regulations). 

The roughly 30 million figure that is mentioned for the West Lake Project, is the 120 million gallon reservoir, the inflatable dam used to help create a pool of water in the Cold Brook from which will be used to fill the reservoir over time, all the pipes and pumps needed to transport the water in West Lake the roughly 3 miles up the road to Mount Snow and then a major overhaul of how water is transported up the mountain and then down to the various snowmaking trails currently at Mount Snow.  

West Lake isn't and never has been just a "30 million dollar reservoir" as you have cited on many occasions.

As for the number of full time jobs it could create, please do remember, those jobs don't just have to be at Mount Snow proper, they can be created within the region.  I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how a reliable, dependable snowmaking system adds to the overall economy, not just during the ski season, but year round from people coming back to explore the region in the "offseason" at Killington.

Do I think the total number of jobs eventually created from Mount Snow's EB-5 project will meet target expectations?  Nope, never have, and I've posted that on many occasions in various threads about the topic


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Finally, the exorcism is complete.
> 
> I hope someone loaded his Land Rover up with a bunch of Q signs to take with him :smile:.



Just got confirmation on VPR that Ary Quiros is no longer employed at Burke and has left.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

Official Announcement the Q Jr is gone just on VPR!


----------



## drjeff (Apr 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got confirmation on VPR that Ary Quiros is no longer employed at Burke and has left.



The collective cheers and/or sighs of relief across the NEK have to be easily heard right about now I'd imagine!!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got confirmation on VPR that Ary Quiros is no longer employed at Burke and has left.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

Little Ary should do fine.  Don't forget about all of that pretend hospitality industry experience that he has to fall back on.  Just like Electric Mike has pretend ski area management experience.


----------



## mriceyman (Apr 28, 2016)

The mood in this place has gotten dramatically better lol


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

mriceyman said:


> The mood in this place has gotten dramatically better lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Amazing what deleting a single letter can do!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm just shocked that an import-exporter from Miami was a poor choice to own and run a New England ski area.  Shocked, I tell you!


----------



## Edd (Apr 28, 2016)

So I guess you leave Burke off your resume? What do you tell the next guy that interviews you? The mind boggles.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

Edd said:


> So I guess you leave Burke off your resume? What do you tell the next guy that interviews you? The mind boggles.



Not having a line item on a resume is probably the least of Ary's worries right now.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

I wonder if he'll look into going full time military?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

Edd said:


> So *I guess you leave Burke off your resume? What do you tell the next guy that interviews you? *The mind boggles.



I'd leave it on. 

 Surely he has made at least one friend up there he can list as "employer contact" who can lie through his/her teeth if need be.


----------



## halfpintvt (Apr 28, 2016)

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/138235-Burke-Mountain-like-the-Phoenix-rises-yet-again!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/138235-Burke-Mountain-like-the-Phoenix-rises-yet-again!



It's a little premature to call Burke a Phoenix risen from the ashes.

The greek mythology character related to fire that Burke is currently akin to, is Icarus, who ignored warnings, acted irresponsibly, and plummeted to his death after being burned by the sun.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 28, 2016)

Now it's going to be hurry up and wait with some pain thrown in.  As stated, the sale will take quite some time (whose assets are they selling?) and probably not likely Burke opens next winter.  All the money will be thrown at Jay to operate.  But wait, what money?!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

Actually, the receiver said yesterday that the Burke hotel will be the quickest asset of all to be sold.  He was anticipating a few months.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Actually, the receiver said yesterday that the Burke hotel will be the quickest asset of all to be sold.  He was anticipating a few months.



This is what scares me. Breaking apart the hotel and ski area is not good for the long term viability of either.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 28, 2016)

Hotel may be sold, but what about the ski area.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 28, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Hotel may be sold, but what about the ski area.



Wouldn't surprise me in the least if we hear about a few Burke Mtn Academy alums, who moved on post BMA to bigger and better things in the finance world, getting involved, at least on a temporary basis to keep the slopes they spent such a great deal of time training and racing on available for the current BMA students.

Heck, I could even see the parents of a few current BMA students getting together to allow the mountain to operate next year until a permanent owner is found and the deal closes....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

I had that same concern.  If I owned the hotel, I would want to make sure that the ski area is going to stay open.  But who will want to run the ski area without the hotel included?

The best hope is that the ski area and the hotel fall under the same ownership.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 28, 2016)

I think the hotel is much more dependant on the ski area than the ski area is on the hotel.  It's nice to have but the mountain has been there a long time with no hotel.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

tumbler said:


> I think the hotel is much more dependant on the ski area than the ski area is on the hotel.  It's nice to have but the mountain has been there a long time with no hotel.



Yes, but the mountain has never made money.  The hotel can change that.  So I believe that they need each other.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

I think they're both crappy assets. 

 That said, if they're kept together I wouldn't be surprised if a sale-leaseback occurs.   The Burke buyer would immediately recover some cash, and the hotel buyer would have a dependable revenue stream (assuming Burke doesnt go belly up for the Xth time).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think they're both crappy assets.



Well I think NJ is a crappy asset...


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 28, 2016)

Id invest in the dirty Jers before touching anything in Vermont.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

Geesh, we've had some good news the last couple weeks with the mountain getting rebranded, serious purchasers for both the mountain and Hotel, and now Ary being gone.  Slow progress.  Cautiously optimistic.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Id invest in the dirty Jers before touching anything in Vermont.



They're both overvalued, though Vermont's worse than Jersey.  Bubble 2.0 is just around the corner.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 28, 2016)

heh


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 29, 2016)

Q removal...

https://www.facebook.com/QBurkeMtnResort/


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 29, 2016)

That brings a huge grin.  Like coming home after a hellacious business trip.


----------



## chuckstah (Apr 29, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Q removal...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/QBurkeMtnResort/



I  logged into Facebook for the first time in years to like this!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2016)

Jerry Davis, and other contractors, speak to WCAX:

http://www.wcax.com/story/31852814/will-contractors-lose-millions-after-alleged-massive-fraud-in-nek


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2016)

Nice article in BFP:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...rke-strong-say-supporters-burke-mtn/83663548/


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice article in BFP:
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...rke-strong-say-supporters-burke-mtn/83663548/



Nice article. It speaks to the level that people are going to in order to see Burke be successful.

On another note, one of the comments in the article from Sarah Benedict, author of the infamous "I stand with the "Q" " blog post, has been quite active in criticism of both the receiver and FOB over the last couple of days. I'm sure she feels like she is in a tight spot right now as one of the few employees still at Burke and she is worried about her future there but I have to question how she is bringing out her concerns about the receiver's management this early in the process of take over, in such a public way.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 2, 2016)

A corporate version of Stockholm Syndrome?


----------



## River19 (May 2, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> A corporate version of Stockholm Syndrome?



I remember thinking something similar when I first read her "Stand with Q" piece when it came out.

What I don't fully understand is her need to have what IMHO are private/semi-sensitive discussions on social media in full view of whomever.  I understand she feels no one is listening to her to a certain extent so she felt FB was the last resort, but that logic baffles me a bit.

I'm sure she has positive intentions however the approach is a head scratcher for me


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> I'm sure she has positive intentions however the approach is a head scratcher for me



Well if she's worried about her future as you suggest, the worst thing she could do right now is criticize the receiver (especially on day 1).


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 2, 2016)

Keep in mind I have never met Sarah and this is total speculation about why people are giving her so much grief.

A. I don't think she had actually been employed at Burke to develop a "cooperate Stockholm syndrome" mentality.

B. I know people that were well qualified for positions Ary was hiring for in the hotel that came out of the interview shaking their heads at the absurdity that surrounded the way Ary conducted the interview and handled answers to questions that he didn't think were "right". I'm sure other people have heard about Ary's hiring process and therefore approach information coming from people that were hired under that process with a very skeptical eye. Not that those remaining emloyees have some sort of nefarious motive but more that those people were hired to fit Ary's system. Maybe they can adapt to whatever system Leisure Services unfolds and then adapt again to whatever system a new ownership brings. 

Sarah has been the vocal face of the leftover Q Jr regime. So far she has had no exposure to the Burke faithful other than the infamous blog and now now trying to plead her case for "employees that are still there" in social media. I think Sarah is worried she cannot adjust.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Keep in mind I have never met Sarah and this is total speculation about why people are giving her so much grief.
> 
> A. I don't think she had actually been employed at Burke to develop a "cooperate Stockholm syndrome" mentality.
> 
> ...



Very tough position for her.


----------



## River19 (May 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Very tough position for her.



Which is why I can't help but think sticking to more private channels and having some patience to let the process begin to run its course could have been more effective potentially.

Hey, everyone has different styles......it is what it is....I wish her the best of luck with things.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 2, 2016)

And you'd have to consider, that anyone that DOES buy the mountain/hotel, is going to put their own people in charge, and any existing employees will be subject to review(again) and possible replacement.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> Which is why I can't help but think sticking to more private channels and having some patience to let the process begin to run its course could have been more effective potentially.
> 
> Hey, everyone has different styles......it is what it is....I wish her the best of luck with things.



Exactly.  I think that one poster yesterday tried to tell her that same thing.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 3, 2016)

http://www.wcax.com/story/31810782/kingdom-con-sharp-contrast-to-eb-5-success-stories

Note how Sugarbush's co-owner talks about his thoughts on how there were a lot of red flags with the Jay projects.


----------



## cdskier (May 4, 2016)

Seems everyone except for the state of VT saw the red flags on the Jay projects...


----------



## chrisinvermont (May 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Seems everyone except for the state of VT saw the red flags on the Jay projects...




Our state officials were too busy seeing green


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Seems everyone except for the state of VT saw the red flags on the Jay projects...



That shoe will soon drop. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That shoe will soon drop.



I also liked the comments from Adam where he pretty much said the oversight from the state was superficial at best.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I also liked the comments from Adam where *he pretty much said the oversight from the state was superficial at best.*



It's much worse than that.

He said they did "visit" (a very calculated use of a verb IMO, denoting non-work), and without getting into specifics claimed whatever it was they did would have been incapable of "discovering" any fraud.   Which is precisely what I suspected and argued for years.  

Saying that financial analysis was not capable of discovering fraud, is a bit like saying that an aircraft manufacturing plant doesn't build wings.  It kind of defeats the whole point.  

The reality here, is that *State of Vermont was doing ZERO financial analysis of EB-5, all the while lying to the public saying it was conducting strict financial analysis.  *Not only that, State of Vermont was saying their EB-5 was the SAFEST IN AMERICA due to the fact that the financial analysis and regulation was under government control.  Ironically, *State of Vermont was ALSO conducing and running a separate fraud*, and this aspect of the story, at this point, is the least investigated and most untold part of this saga.  Perhaps even the most interesting, frankly.  Had a private financial company with fiduciary responsibilities acted in precisely the same manner as State of Vermont, legal proceedings would already be underway against them, and it's even possible someone could go to jail.  Think anybody from State of Vermont or the government will even be investigated or  see jail time from gross negligence and/or being complicit in looking the other way?   LOL.  Yeah, dont bet on it.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I also liked the comments from Adam where he pretty much said the oversight from the state was superficial at best.



Just continue to watch that unfold.  In other news, it was reported last night that the Governor's office told the press, "yeah, sure we will produce all those Emails from former staff members that may pertain to the EB5 projects.  You just need to pay us $20,000 for them."  So much for transparency.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just continue to watch that unfold.  In other news, it was reported last night that the Governor's office told the press, "yeah, sure we will produce all those Emails from former staff members that may pertain to the EB5 projects.  You just need to pay us $20,000 for them."  So much for transparency.




I like reading the comments at the end... 


http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/04/shumlin-administration-to-charge-20000-for-former-staff-emails/?utm_source=VTDigger+Subscribers+and+Donors&utm_campaign=61ba90d124-Weekly+Update&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-61ba90d124-405602665


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> The reality here, is that *State of Vermont was doing ZERO financial analysis of EB-5, all the while lying to the public saying it was conducting strict financial analysis.  *Not only that, State of Vermont was saying their EB-5 was the SAFEST IN AMERICA due to the fact that the financial analysis and regulation was under government control.



Bingo.  Just watch this and listen closely:


----------



## cdskier (May 4, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's much worse than that.



I did say "at best" :razz:


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Bingo.  Just watch this and listen closely:



The magic word from Shumlin is "audit". He is promising the investors that the State of Vermont will audit the EB-5 projects. The interesting thing is that, according to the receiver, the investors are mostly concerned about green cards. So if the state pols can get the federal government to hand out a stack of green cards the state's problem may go away.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> The magic word from Shumlin is "audit". He is promising the investors that the State of Vermont will audit the EB-5 projects. The interesting thing is that, according to the receiver, the investors are mostly concerned about green cards. So if the state pols can get the federal government to hand out a stack of green cards the state's problem may go away.



Not all of the investors share that position.  I can think of at least one (Tony Sutton) who would disagree with you.


----------



## River19 (May 4, 2016)

I think the Shumlin/State portion of this is just starting to smolder.....kinda like the Q fraud was a couple years ago.  The order to delete emails just days before what he knew was coming.  The releasing of "a representative sample", which I admire the creativity in that "sell job".....might as well say "here are the emails that contain absolutely nothing incriminating whatsoever and have been sanitized for your consumption".  The $20K "price tag" to recover public information.......love it.  Where can I send my check?

Can I just bring a thumb drive and copy them Shummy?  That way we can all save a few bucks.....

Shummy said, audit, but he didn't say when....

I'm guessing the the Pols were so pleased with the positive spin and story about investment, jobs, etc. that they were perfectly fine not to look a gift horse in the mouth until that horse started to leave steaming piles of crap every where.

I also find it interesting that I get the feeling the more they dig the more they won't be able to account for more than the $50M they believe Q fraud took.  I cant remember where I saw it in the articles this week but I saw the "questionable" sum up to like $69M or something.  Then again they already established they misappropriated $200M or so right?

Man, wouldn't it be nice to find a portion of that in Shummy's accounts?


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 4, 2016)

From today's Cal-Rec article...
http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_24349655-1534-55bd-944a-84ad9548f044.html


> Tim Tierney, executive director of Kingdom Trails and also president of the Burke Area Chamber of Commerce, on Tuesday said, “It has been very refreshing meeting and working with the team of Leisure Resorts, Steve Olson, Steve Scherer and Jamie Tatge. The last several years have been irrational in so many ways that it is very positive to converse with folks looking for the best possible solutions for Burke Mountain and the surrounding community.”
> 
> Tierney said, “My early sense is that these are capable individuals committed to operating a functional entity and already have quickly repaired many relationships. We will need their support and visa versa. They know full well it is a symbiotic relationship with the community and Burke Mountain. The change has been quite dramatic and uplifting.”




Good to hear bridges are being rebuilt.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> I think the Shumlin/State portion of this is just starting to smolder.....kinda like the Q fraud was a couple years ago.  The order to delete emails just days before what he knew was coming.  The releasing of "a representative sample", which I admire the creativity in that "sell job".....might as well say "here are the emails that contain absolutely nothing incriminating whatsoever and have been sanitized for your consumption".  The $20K "price tag" to recover public information.......love it.  Where can I send my check?
> 
> Can I just bring a thumb drive and copy them Shummy?  That way we can all save a few bucks.....
> 
> ...



Good points.  I saw that despite all the money raised they still need (only) $69,000,000 to COMPLETE the projects they had started.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Good points.  I saw that despite all the money raised they still need (only) $69,000,000 to COMPLETE the projects they had started.



By far the largest of the "Projects started" is AnC Bio. I figure after ther ~$5 million to complete contractor payments for the Burke Hotel, there is probably another $2-3 million in condo construction left at Jay. I'm not sure if the Stateside Rec center was considered "started" or not.


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

River19 said:


> I think the Shumlin/State portion of this is just starting to smolder.....kinda like the Q fraud was a couple years ago.  The order to delete emails just days before what he knew was coming.  The releasing of "a representative sample", which I admire the creativity in that "sell job".....might as well say "here are the emails that contain absolutely nothing incriminating whatsoever and have been sanitized for your consumption".  The $20K "price tag" to recover public information.......love it.  Where can I send my check?
> 
> Can I just bring a thumb drive and copy them Shummy?  That way we can all save a few bucks.....
> 
> ...



The 50 million is pretty much accounted for and documented in the recent info provided on the receivership's website. The forensic accounting has been done and based on the motion to deny Quiros access to 50 million, it did not appear that any loose ends are present. Who knows, maybe they are holding back info, but since they have traced all the money, not sure how they could do that. The 50 million are the funds that Quiros took and used to purchase the ski resorts, pay taxes, buy the condo and pay interest on the margin loans. The 69 million is the amount that is needed to finish off the buildings at Jay Peak (cottages, medic and rec centers) and build the AncBio facility. That number also takes into consideration another 27 million available under the offering (additional investors). The 200 million number includes the use of the funds that were either commingled, used to complete overruns at the Tramhouse, or were placed as collateral agains the margin loans and his personal line of credit. A lot of those funds were not taken (lets say pocketed by Quiros), but just used in a manor that violated the offering and agreement with the investors. I'm not discounting that number, it just doesn't have the same weight that the 50 million does.  I think the overall amount that they are looking to collect (which they will never get) is around $169 million.


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

The forensic accounting has been done and based on the motion to deny Quiros access to 50 million, it did not appear that any loose ends are present. Who knows, maybe they are holding back info, but since they have traced all the money, not sure how they could do that.

I take back that statement - its always possible that somebody in the State of Vermont received a check from Quiros to make things go smoothly.


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

Its also nice to know that the State of Vermont and the IRS received a total of 4.2 million of funds - wonder if they will be giving that back to the investors?


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

This is a summary of costs to complete the EB-5 offerings for Phase VI and VII:
Phase VI
84 Cottages - 22.5 million per offering
Rec Center - 7.2 million per offering
Medical Center - 2.3 million per offering
Balance of funds in EB-5 account - $0
Balance of funds in Stateside EB-5 account - $55,000
Incomplete cottages under construction - 6 million

Total to complete Phase VI - 26 million.

Phase VII
Bio Research Rooms & Machinery - 63 million
Distribution Rights - 10 million
Other Costs - 18 million
Project Sponsor Contribution - 8 million
Balance of Investor Funds to be Raided - 27 million
Escrow Accounts - 14 million
Non-Escrow Account - 5.2 million
Vendor Payments - 9.9 Million

Total to Complete Phase VII - 43 million

That does not take into account the $750,000 to keep Burke afloat for 13 weeks and the potentially 11 million to keep Jay open till October 2016.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Its also nice to know that the State of Vermont and the IRS received a total of 4.2 million of funds - wonder if they will be giving that back to the investors?



We know the answer to that one....


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> We know the answer to that one....



I am guessing that Vermont will pay up on that one - not so sure about the IRS.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I am guessing that Vermont will pay up on that one - not so sure about the IRS.



Fat chance on both.


----------



## freeski (May 4, 2016)

Mbedle: Good reporting. When this mess goes into the criminal arena one of the things that might be much bigger than in the SEC case is the outlandish claims made to the investors on the potential of the synthetic vital organs that were to be created. The organs just add such a sick twisted slant. This is going to make a great episode of American Greed.


----------



## DJAK (May 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  I think that one poster yesterday tried to tell her that same thing.



Can lead a horse to water, but...


----------



## River19 (May 4, 2016)

mbedle said:


> The 50 million is pretty much accounted for and documented in the recent info provided on the receivership's website. The forensic accounting has been done and based on the motion to deny Quiros access to 50 million, it did not appear that any loose ends are present. Who knows, maybe they are holding back info, but since they have traced all the money, not sure how they could do that. The 50 million are the funds that Quiros took and used to purchase the ski resorts, pay taxes, buy the condo and pay interest on the margin loans. The 69 million is the amount that is needed to finish off the buildings at Jay Peak (cottages, medic and rec centers) and build the AncBio facility. That number also takes into consideration another 27 million available under the offering (additional investors). The 200 million number includes the use of the funds that were either commingled, used to complete overruns at the Tramhouse, or were placed as collateral agains the margin loans and his personal line of credit. A lot of those funds were not taken (lets say pocketed by Quiros), but just used in a manor that violated the offering and agreement with the investors. I'm not discounting that number, it just doesn't have the same weight that the 50 million does.  I think the overall amount that they are looking to collect (which they will never get) is around $169 million.



That sounds about right based on what I have read as well.  The depositions have provided me some entertaining lunch reading over the past couple weeks.


----------



## mbedle (May 4, 2016)

River19 - your quote on your sign off is the best. And yes, lots of good reading.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 5, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Good to hear bridges are being rebuilt.



Very good to hear


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 5, 2016)

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=431


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

> Quiros, stated *Stenger’s salary was  “approximately, two hundred and twenty-five*, all in” and that, “I give  him a hefty allocation for my Jay Peak stuff.  He travels quite well.   And, you know, it’s not a bonus.  It’s a salary – it’s not a salary.   It’s a cost expense that I take care of for him, all of it.  He flies  with his wife, with his family.  He flies quite – he flies with a team  of about ten men.”
> 
> In addition, Quiros alleges that, using North East Contract Services  funds, *“we paid his taxes last year to the tune of a couple of hundred  thousand dollars. * I don’t know exactly what amount that was.  That  money came from here.  He had to pay his taxes.”



Stenger's taxes were roughly the same as his salary?  In addition to income tax, he'd have to have a lot of capital gains on investments if this is somehow true.  

And why was Jay Peak paying Stenger's taxes in the first place?!?!?!  

I'm not sure how much of anything Quiros says or recollects can be assumed to be true.


----------



## Domeskier (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> And why was Jay Peak paying Stenger's taxes in the first place?!?!?!



Good question.  If true, Stenger better have included the amount paid by Jay Peak in income and paid taxes on it or the IRS will be coming after him now, too.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not sure how much of anything Quiros says or recollects can be assumed to be true.




I was quite surprised at how uneducated he was and how unsophisticated he comes across.  I figured he went to business school.  Nope.  High School before joining the military.  Might explain why things went so bad--he was way over his head and did not know or even consider what he was doing.

I have done a fair number of depositions....both defended and taken.  If I was the lawyer doing this one I would have been amused to say the least.


----------



## River19 (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I was quite surprised at how uneducated he was and how unsophisticated he comes across.  I figured he went to business school.  Nope.  High School before joining the military.  Might explain why things went so bad--he was way over his head and did not know or even consider what he was doing.
> 
> I have done a fair number of depositions....both defended and taken.  If I was the lawyer doing this one I would have been amused to say the least.



Like I said before, everything I read from Q in that deposition convinced me he is no where near sophisticated enough to run a chain restaurant let alone a 9 figure complex business with the added layers of multinational investors and SEC regulations to abide by.

He said he has some "crack mechanics" that "put this whole thing together".........Crack mechanics?  More like accounting mechanics on crack.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *I was quite surprised at how uneducated he was and how unsophisticated he comes across.*  I figured he went to business school.  Nope. * High School* before joining the military.





River19 said:


> Like I said before,* everything I read from Q in that deposition convinced me he is no where near sophisticated enough to run a chain restaurant let alone a 9 figure complex business with the added layers of multinational investors and SEC regulations to abide by.*



Whenever I read his writing, I always dismissed it as his simply being ESL, is that not the case?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whenever I read his writing, I always dismissed it as his simply being ESL, is that not the case?



Nope. NYC kid, joined Army, stationed in South Korea.


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## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *Nope. NYC kid,* joined Army, stationed in South Korea.



I knew he went to school in NYC, but I also knew he's 1st generation, so I always assumed the bizarre manner in which I "read" him speaking in the news was an ESL issue, like maybe he moved here when he was 15 or something and never spoke English in the home.  But if he was born/raised in America, his very poor grasp of the language strikes me as quite odd given his situation. 

Having lived in NYC, it's not odd to encounter people like that, you do run into people all the time that have lived in America their entire life and can barely speak English, but they also tend to be poorly educated and from the crappiest NYC public schools and have no parenting to boot.  Whereas Quiros went to a snooty, elite, private prep school that cost big bucks ($$$$) where he had to receive just a top-notch education, so the poor manner in which he speaks just strikes me as very, very strange.   Especially for someone who later, ostensibly achieved some measure of success in the business world, which, frankly I'm now even wondering/questioning that.

 Curious now if anyone here has met the man?  All the videos I've seen over X years are always of Stenger speaking, so I've never actually heard Quiros.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I knew he went to school in NYC, but I also knew he's 1st generation, so I always assumed the bizarre manner in which I "read" him speaking in the news was an ESL issue, like maybe he moved here when he was 15 or something and never spoke English in the home.  But if he was born/raised in America, his very poor grasp of the language strikes me as quite odd given his situation.
> 
> Having lived in NYC, it's not odd to encounter people like that, you do run into people all the time that have lived in America their entire life and can barely speak English, but they also tend to be poorly educated and from the crappiest NYC public schools and have no parenting to boot.  Whereas Quiros went to a snooty, elite, private prep school that cost big bucks ($$$$) where he had to receive just a top-notch education, so the poor manner in which he speaks just strikes me as very, very strange.   Especially for someone who later, ostensibly achieved some measure of success in the business world, which, frankly I'm now even wondering/questioning that.
> 
> Curious now if anyone here has met the man?  All the videos I've seen over X years are always of Stenger speaking, so I've never actually heard Quiros.



I deal with ESL contractors every day; regardless of what the primary language is, what they say even with ESL challenges is light years more intelligent in structure, content, presentation etc. than Q.  I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am, and based on how sloppy this mess really is, there isn't much to suggest I am way off base here. 

This isn't a case of the fraud being so genius that you are in awe of the complexity.  Madoff had that to a certain extent as it took a highly intelligent math-quant to figure it out.  This is a case of no one in an oversight position wanting to really look too deep as they didn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2016)

I'm thinking Raymond James needs to circle the wagons:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/05/jay-peak-investor-files-class-action-lawsuit-against-raymond-james/

I'm not surprised this is happening now.

Sit back and watch this unfold over the next 18 months or so.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2016)

River19 said:


> I* deal with ESL contractors every day; regardless of what the primary language is, what they say even with ESL challenges is light years more intelligent in structure, content, presentation etc. than Q.*  I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am, and based on how sloppy this mess really is, there isn't much to suggest I am way off base here.



Good point, and I agree.  I feel the manner in which he speaks is odd, and almost juvenile & child-like for lack of better terms.  Various papers & news websites often have to use (sic) when quoting him.  



River19 said:


> *This isn't a case of the fraud being so genius that you are in awe of the complexity.*  Madoff had that to a certain extent as it took a highly intelligent math-quant to figure it out.  This is a case of no one in an oversight position wanting to really look too deep as they didn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth.



Agreed.  This fraud should have been caught almost immediately (*literally*).  

The only reason this Ponzi Scheme went on for years is because State of Vermont lied by saying they were continually and strictly reviewing updates on Jay's finances, which gave (almost) everyone a false sense of security that everything was legitimate and lawful, when in fact State of Vermont wasn't even conducting the audit equivalent of a basic entry-level high school accounting course.



River19 said:


> *I'm thinking Raymond James needs to circle the wagons:*



I cant say I disagree with any of the lawsuit's allegations.  The only winning defense I can think of is if the son-in-law claims he did not know that the deposited money was in fact, EB-5 investor's money.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Good point, and I agree.  I feel the manner in which he speaks is odd, and almost juvenile & child-like for lack of better terms.  Various papers & news websites often have to use (sic) when quoting him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Completely agree on all points.

This thing is literally a soap opera as well; I wonder what dirt will come out from the Ex and the Ex of the Ex....

With many "schemes" that are white collar in nature you can appreciate the cunning and complex ruse of the perpetrator etc.  In this one, you sit there and go "yeah no shit, you couldn't figure that out?"

The amount of sub companies and large sums of money wired from one company to the next with very little value added along the way to justify millions flying around.  I'm still trying to figure out the whole Kelly thing......so the above board explanation of the function NECS played was that it reviewed the invoices and made sure that the invoice was in line with a "schedule".  And for that they were able to tack on 20%?  Seriously?  You look at a piece of paper which may be an invoice for $2.6M and because you are on some conference calls and attend a few meetings you take a monthly fee of $500K?

It isn't like there is an army of folks that work in that company, it's one dude in both NECS and his other shell like company.  He refers to them by company name which makes it highly entertaining to read.  'that is a contract between company A and company B'.........but if you are the sole employee of both company A & B......it is kinda funny.  I get his explanation around IRS tax purposes etc. but still the whole thing is silly.

It is hard to make $500K/mo as a sole proprietor......that makes most lawyers seem like a bargain.  

Shmucks.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2016)

River19 said:


> Completely agree on all points.
> 
> This thing is literally a soap opera as well; I wonder what dirt will come out from the Ex and the Ex of the Ex....
> 
> ...



I wonder how he answered the telephone?  "Q Farms, oops, I mean Q Resorts!"


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder how he answered the telephone?  "Q Farms, oops, I mean Q Resorts!"



"You reached Quiros, sorry I am 'indisposed' at this time.  Leave a message and one of my crack mechanics will pull this whole things together for you, whatever it is, I'm not sure, but it is what it is."


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## burski (May 6, 2016)

River19 said:


> "You reached Quiros, sorry I am 'indisposed' at this time.  Leave a message and one of my crack mechanics will pull this whole things together for you, whatever it is, I'm not sure, but it is what it is."



This stuff is really just too funny, someone should think of buying the rights to this story and making a comedy out of it.  If it were not true it would be unbelievable.  And I don't think we have seen the final punch line yet....


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 7, 2016)

burski said:


> This stuff is really just too funny,* someone should think of buying the rights to this story and making a comedy out of it.*  If it were not true it would be unbelievable.  And I don't think we have seen the final punch line yet....



I've already cast the roles of the officers of the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center, _the only regional center with direct supervision by state government, _with these guys.


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## thetrailboss (May 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've already cast the roles of the officers of the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center, _the only regional center with direct supervision by state government, _with these guys.



(Rim shot)


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## steamboat1 (May 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've already cast the roles of the officers of the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center, _the only regional center with direct supervision by state government, _with these guys.


And here I thought they were Shumlins economic advisors


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## halfpintvt (May 18, 2016)

Party in the Bear Den, May 28th from 2 PM to 7 PM. Let's all turn out and have a blast!


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## thetrailboss (May 18, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Party in the Bear Den, May 28th from 2 PM to 7 PM. Let's all turn out and have a blast!



Beat me to it!  Proceeds go to Kingdom Kids.  I can tell you that the management was VERY interested in having this event and want to see everyone there!


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## halfpintvt (May 23, 2016)

Burke Hotel to open Sept. 1st!

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/23/burke-mountain-hotel-to-open-sept-1/


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## thetrailboss (May 27, 2016)

Check this out! Show your support!



http://friendsofburke.com/


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## cdskier (May 28, 2016)

This thread reminds me of Setec Astronomy!


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## steamboat1 (May 28, 2016)

I see deleting posts is still happening. Someone is a little touchy.


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## thetrailboss (May 28, 2016)

Nice story, but why is Stenger still in the picture?

http://www.wcax.com/story/32084770/sneak-peek-inside-the-new-burke-mountain-hotel


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## LONGBOARDR (May 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice story, but why is Stenger still in the picture?
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/32084770/sneak-peek-inside-the-new-burke-mountain-hotel
> 
> ...



Totally bizarre, is anyone in charge in the NEK ??

Perhaps someone will give Bill a ticket to Miami and he can sell Quiros's  military jeep collection

and now Quiros is getting  15 k per month?  (Caledonian wreckord)


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## steamboat1 (May 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Nice story, but why is Stenger still in the picture?
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/32084770/sneak-peek-inside-the-new-burke-mountain-hotel


_"The facility is fully licensed once back at full employment this winter. Managers expect to employ more than 160 people again".
_

At a cost north of $50m for the hotel employment of 160 falls well short of the required 1,000+ employment that amount of EB-5 money requires to show.


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## thetrailboss (May 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> _"The facility is fully licensed once back at full employment this winter. Managers expect to employ more than 160 people again".
> _
> 
> At a cost north of $50m for the hotel employment of 160 falls well short of the required 1,000+ employment that amount of EB-5 money requires to show.



Right.  The jobs don't have to be directly created by the Hotel though.  They can count construction, if the bedmaker has to hire 3 more FT people to make the beds, if the pillowmaker hires 4 more FT people, etc.


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## steamboat1 (May 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  The jobs don't have to be directly created by the Hotel though.  They can count construction, if the bedmaker has to hire 3 more FT people to make the beds, if the pillowmaker hires 4 more FT people, etc.


Yeah OK


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## thetrailboss (May 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah OK



I agree that this is something to be skeptical about. 


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## oldtimer (May 31, 2016)

*The Q is gone party*

The event on Saturday was extremely well attended.  Many of the usual suspects, but plenty of faces I either didn't recognize or hadn't seen in a long time.  The receiver spoke briefly.  Between this conversation, talking with some BMA folks and several others (including one Bill Stenger), it is clear that the mountain will run this year and they will do many things to improve the product-  not huge big splash dollar expenditures, but the stuff we all know would REALLY help::   I suspect there will be crews out patching and replacing snowmaking pipes this fall, & Northern Rentals will be short 2 big diesel compressors for the early part of the winter and they will run the pond fill pumps 24/7 as long as the river level allows-  thus trying to keep the pond full.  From several conversations it is clear that BMA is on board and doing all they can to assure that the team has support-  huge.

The vibe throughout town is great-  KT folks talking about how great these guys are to deal with, many of those fired in March looking forward to getting there jobs back in the fall etc-  what a change.  Many of the core staff attended the party on Saturday.

The receiver had a request-- it would be hugely helpful if folks bought season passes NOW- Jason, Brian and many others all report that this interim group is doing all that can be done with a relatively tight budget and they are thrilled.  SO now, it is time for all of us who have been bitching to step up and help them show the judge et al that this asset is worth investment.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> The event on Saturday was extremely well attended.  Many of the usual suspects, but plenty of faces I either didn't recognize or hadn't seen in a long time.  The receiver spoke briefly.  Between this conversation, talking with some BMA folks and several others (including one Bill Stenger), it is clear that the mountain will run this year and they will do many things to improve the product-  not huge big splash dollar expenditures, but the stuff we all know would REALLY help::   I suspect there will be crews out patching and replacing snowmaking pipes this fall, & Northern Rentals will be short 2 big diesel compressors for the early part of the winter and they will run the pond fill pumps 24/7 as long as the river level allows-  thus trying to keep the pond full.  From several conversations it is clear that BMA is on board and doing all they can to assure that the team has support-  huge.
> 
> The vibe throughout town is great-  KT folks talking about how great these guys are to deal with, many of those fired in March looking forward to getting there jobs back in the fall etc-  what a change.  Many of the core staff attended the party on Saturday.
> 
> The receiver had a request-- it would be hugely helpful if folks bought season passes NOW- Jason, Brian and many others all report that this interim group is doing all that can be done with a relatively tight budget and they are thrilled.  SO now, it is time for all of us who have been bitching to step up and help them show the judge et al that this asset is worth investment.



So here's my question: why was Bill Stenger there?


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## MEtoVTSkier (May 31, 2016)

Did they say anything about getting the dredging done on the snowmaking pond this summer? I'm sure that would go a long way with probably minimal investment, towards keeping the available snowmaking up and running, during low flow periods on the river.


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## oldtimer (May 31, 2016)

1) Stenger-  this is a very complicated issue in the NEK-  many. many feel that he had to know what was going on and was at least complicate.  That said, he is the one and only reason that Jr acted with a modicum of restraint over his tenure.  Were it not for Bill Stenger's very direct intervention the shit show that was Burke last year would have been much, much worse.  He worked his ass off to get us the product we had.  This I know for an absolute fact.  Those just below Jr in the pecking order all have nothing but praise for what Bill Stenger did for the mountain.  He is not persona non-grata amongst those who know how to make Burke Mountain run well.

2) pond-  I forgot to ask while chatting, but it never came up so I expect it may have to wait a year.  Last year's lack of water in the pond was a combination of low flow int he river and mis-management of the flow there was.


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> 1) Stenger-  this is a very complicated issue in the NEK-  many. many feel that he had to know what was going on and was at least complicate.  That said, he is the one and only reason that Jr acted with a modicum of restraint over his tenure.  Were it not for Bill Stenger's very direct intervention the shit show that was Burke last year would have been much, much worse.  He worked his ass off to get us the product we had.  This I know for an absolute fact.  Those just below Jr in the pecking order all have nothing but praise for what Bill Stenger did for the mountain.  He is not persona non-grata amongst those who know how to make Burke Mountain run well.
> 
> 2) pond-  I forgot to ask while chatting, but it never came up so I expect it may have to wait a year.  Last year's lack of water in the pond was a combination of low flow int he river and mis-management of the flow there was.



As for Stenger, yes he (was) a great manager and business-guy, but he is facing federal charges.  Innocent until proven guilty of course, but guilty conscience perhaps?


----------



## steamboat1 (May 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So here's my question: why was Bill Stenger there?


According to one of the articles posted in the other thread he's still on the payroll to the tune of $100,000.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> According to one of the articles posted in the other thread he's still on the payroll to the tune of $100,000.



Yes, this is so strange.


----------



## mbedle (May 31, 2016)

I am guessing that the receivership saw the benefit of keeping him around during the transition. He is paid hourly at a rate equal to 100K per year. It will be interesting to read his response to to the SEC case. I think they are due by June 30th.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I am guessing that the receivership saw the benefit of keeping him around during the transition. He is paid hourly at a rate equal to 100K per year. It will be interesting to read his response to to the SEC case. I think they are due by June 30th.



He certainly knows the business.  There must be a plea deal/immunity agreement for him in this case.


----------



## oldtimer (May 31, 2016)

I have no inside info, but I too am starting to feel like he has some sort of deal going with the Feds.  For all we know, he might of smelled the Q rat years ago and been quietly feeding info to the Feds.   Time will tell-   meanwhile, anyone who likes Burke should have a warm spot for the guy.  He has taken nothing from us and he worked his ass off to save us from Jr.  I will re-iterate-  I KNOW that had it not been for Bill last winter would have been much, much worse.  His relationship with most of the key players is all that kept them on board.  



thetrailboss said:


> He certainly knows the business.  There must be a plea deal/immunity agreement for him in this case.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I have no inside info, but I too am starting to feel like he has some sort of deal going with the Feds.  For all we know, he might of smelled the Q rat years ago and been quietly feeding info to the Feds.   Time will tell-   meanwhile, anyone who likes Burke should have a warm spot for the guy.  He has taken nothing from us and he worked his ass off to save us from Jr.  I will re-iterate-  I KNOW that had it not been for Bill last winter would have been much, much worse.  His relationship with most of the key players is all that kept them on board.



I know I had seen him quite often (at least driving) in Lyndonville. It had to be VERY frustrating trying to keep Q under some amount of control. 
This is total speculation of course, but I wonder if Ary Jr running Burke into the ground may have helped lead to Stenger working out that deal with the Feds you are speculating about.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> I have no inside info, but I too am starting to feel like he has some sort of deal going with the Feds.  For all we know, he might of smelled the Q rat years ago and been quietly feeding info to the Feds.   Time will tell-   meanwhile, anyone who likes Burke should have a warm spot for the guy.  He has taken nothing from us and he worked his ass off to save us from Jr.  I will re-iterate-  I KNOW that had it not been for Bill last winter would have been much, much worse.  His relationship with most of the key players is all that kept them on board.



I personally felt that he was a great manager.  I personally have always felt that he was interested in helping Burke.  I have heard that he feels terrible for what has happened with Burke and personally responsible.  That said, I know a lot of folks who are saying, "show me, Bill."


----------



## deadheadskier (May 31, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I know I had seen him quite often (at least driving) in Lyndonville. It had to be VERY frustrating trying to keep Q under some amount of control.
> This is total speculation of course, but I wonder if Ary Jr running Burke into the ground may have helped lead to Stenger working out that deal with the Feds you are speculating about.



Wasn't there also some talk of his ownership stake being reduced?  Maybe the combination of Papa Q screwing him over and Baby Q tarnishing his brand pushed him over the edge and made him sing.

It would be great to hear if Bill is mostly innocent in all of this.  He always came off as a genuinely nice guy with good intentions. Then again who knows. Lots of outwardly nice people have turned out to be corrupt.


----------



## mbedle (May 31, 2016)

https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-...s-of-Fact-and-Proposed-Conclusions-of-Law.pdf

Interesting to read Quiros' finding of facts and conclusions of law on this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> 1) Stenger-  *many feel that he had to know what was going on* and was at least complicate.



Those few who are not among the "many" are idiots.

It is literally not possible, given what is already publicly known, that Stenger was completely unaware of wrong-doing.  Zip, zero, zilch.   He fascinated the ACH transfers for heaven's sake.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jun 1, 2016)

I'm guessing you meant facilitated and not facinated


----------



## dlague (Jun 1, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I'm guessing you meant facilitated and not facinated



Makes more sense!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2016)

Another interesting item:  

http://digital.vpr.net/post/de-qing...ahead-burke-hotels-september-opening#stream/0


----------



## mbedle (Jun 1, 2016)

"For every job we restore at the hotel and the mountain, three jobs are created in the community. For every dollar spent at the hotel and the mountain, $3 are spent in the economy in the Northeast Kingdom." — Michael Sher, Friends Of Burke Mountain founder

I wonder how that was determined?


----------



## cdskier (Jun 1, 2016)

mbedle said:


> "For every job we restore at the hotel and the mountain, three jobs are created in the community. For every dollar spent at the hotel and the mountain, $3 are spent in the economy in the Northeast Kingdom." — Michael Sher, Friends Of Burke Mountain founder
> 
> I wonder how that was determined?



Pulling numbers out of thin air perhaps? I'm sure there's an impact...but a 3:1 ratio for both jobs created in the area and money spent in the area I'm not so sure about.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 1, 2016)

mbedle said:


> "For every job we restore at the hotel and the mountain, three jobs are created in the community. For every dollar spent at the hotel and the mountain, $3 are spent in the economy in the Northeast Kingdom." — Michael Sher, Friends Of Burke Mountain founder
> 
> I wonder how that was determined?



He should have said for every dollar spent at the hotel/mountain eleventy-billion dollars are spent in the economy in the Northeast Kingdom.  

That would have been more impressive.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 2, 2016)

I see that the Soviet style deleting of publicly accessible information has continued in my absence.

I any event, I am checking out for the most part.  My time-out turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  Rather than surfing the web, I got out and did things that were very fruitful.  The biggest is that I met with the owners of a large company, and wound up getting offered a job that is an absolute dream job.  It comes with a 77% raise to boot.  I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've had the best month I've had in a LONG time.

I wish everyone here all the best.  In the meantime enjoy summer.  Winter will be here soon enough.


----------



## halfpintvt (Jun 2, 2016)

Court approves Jay Peak Tram repairs.

https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-...and-for-Approval-of-Passenger-Tramway-1-1.pdf


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that the Soviet style deleting of publicly accessible information has continued in my absence.
> 
> I any event, I am checking out for the most part.  My time-out turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  Rather than surfing the web, I got out and did things that were very fruitful.  The biggest is that I met with the owners of a large company, and wound up getting offered a job that is an absolute dream job.  It comes with a 77% raise to boot.  I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've had the best month I've had in a LONG time.
> 
> I wish everyone here all the best.  In the meantime enjoy summer.  Winter will be here soon enough.


----------



## yeggous (Jun 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that the Soviet style deleting of publicly accessible information has continued in my absence.
> 
> I any event, I am checking out for the most part.  My time-out turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  Rather than surfing the web, I got out and did things that were very fruitful.  The biggest is that I met with the owners of a large company, and wound up getting offered a job that is an absolute dream job.  It comes with a 77% raise to boot.  I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've had the best month I've had in a LONG time.
> 
> I wish everyone here all the best.  In the meantime enjoy summer.  Winter will be here soon enough.



Glad to hear it! It's always good to hear when things come together. 'Tis the season to get things done!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've had the best month I've had in a LONG time.



Nice.



halfpintvt said:


> Court approves Jay Peak Tram repairs.



Rats.  I was hoping it would be declared more unsafe than a traveling carnival ride and condemned.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Rats.  I was hoping it would be declared more unsafe than a traveling carnival ride and condemned.



Well there is this...

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that the Soviet style deleting of publicly accessible information has continued in my absence.
> 
> I any event, I am checking out for the most part.  My time-out turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  Rather than surfing the web, I got out and did things that were very fruitful.  The biggest is that I met with the owners of a large company, and wound up getting offered a job that is an absolute dream job.  It comes with a 77% raise to boot.  I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've had the best month I've had in a LONG time.
> 
> I wish everyone here all the best.  In the meantime enjoy summer.  Winter will be here soon enough.



And I'll second the .
I hope you'll still pop in now and then.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well there is this...
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/



This was not a surprise:



> The tram was permitted to operate during this past ski season on condition the work be completed at the end of the winter.
> 
> "The ski season has ended but the tramway inspectors have been advised that Jay Peak has not taken steps to begin the work needed before the Tram is permitted to operate again," Stephen Monahan, the director of the division, wrote in the order, which was delivered Wednesday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

Here's a copy of the Order:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/314621250/Order-regarding-Jay-Peak-tram#fullscreen


----------



## dlague (Jun 2, 2016)

That will be a hit over the summer!


----------



## machski (Jun 3, 2016)

It's kind of funny, but to some extent, Burke is almost looking like the better of the two resorts for new buyers.  Less issues with infrastructure anyway.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

machski said:


> It's kind of funny, but to some extent, *Burke is almost looking like the better of the two resorts for new buyers.  *Less issues with infrastructure anyway.





 Jay Peak with all its' warts is a far more attractive purchase than Jay Peak.  Even if at auction, they'll be far more interested parties in JP than Burke.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Well there is this...
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/



What's sad is they're going to sink $5M into this crappy old hulk that results in subpar skiing, whereas they could, for relatively similar funds, do a high speed quad and a short double (like they used to have years ago) combo that would result in much better skiing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What's sad is they're going to sink $5M into this crappy old hulk that results in subpar skiing, whereas they could, for relatively similar funds, do a high speed quad and a short double (like they used to have years ago) combo that would result in much better skiing.



That's an interesting point.  You could replace the Bonnie with an HSQ AND then install a double to the top.  Replace a 30 year old chair and fix the Tram issue.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's an interesting point.  You could replace the Bonnie with an* HSQ AND then install a double to the top.  *Replace a 30 year old chair and fix the Tram issue.



Someone with vision at Jay needs to make that happen, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to even be a consideration, because of a minority of decision makers who seem to think the Jay Tram is as priceless a historical artifact as a  Dunlap broadside or the Mona Lisa, rather than the inefficient metal hulk that should have been replaced 20 years ago that it is.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Someone with vision at Jay needs to make that happen, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to even be a consideration, because of a minority of decision makers who seem to think the Jay Tram is as priceless a historical artifact as a  Dunlap broadside or the Mona Lisa, rather than the inefficient metal hulk that should have been replaced 20 years ago that it is.



I was shocked to hear that it is 60 people per cab or now 45 (it has been 13 years since I rode it).  Snowbird is 120.


----------



## machski (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What's sad is they're going to sink $5M into this crappy old hulk that results in subpar skiing, whereas they could, for relatively similar funds, do a high speed quad and a short double (like they used to have years ago) combo that would result in much better skiing.



Except that kills the summit for hosting weddings/dinners/etc.  You would make the summit ski access only with that plan.  I have to imagine that is not the "vision" the actual players have for the resort/summit.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

machski said:


> Except that kills the summit for hosting weddings/dinners/etc.  You would make the summit ski access only with that plan.  I have to imagine that is not the "vision" the actual players have for the resort/summit.



Not really...other resorts use regular chairlifts to get people up the mountain for weddings. It is certainly doable.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

Doable, but not as easily marketable.  Brides tend to have a vision of a "dream wedding." When you switch the scenario from guests riding up in an enclosed Tram to a chairlift ride in the rain perhaps they look at a more reliable location like Stowe, Killington or Stratton.

You can obviously sell an indoor backup location as an alternative, but that takes away a venue that you can sell a second wedding at.


----------



## jimmck (Jun 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Doable, but not as easily marketable.  Brides tend to have a vision of a "dream wedding." When you switch the scenario from guests riding up in an enclosed Tram to a chairlift ride in the rain perhaps they look at a more reliable location like Stowe, Killington or Stratton.
> 
> You can obviously sell an indoor backup location as an alternative, but that takes away a venue that you can sell a second wedding at.


Tell Sugarbush it's not easily marketable.  I believe they booked close to 30 weddings last year.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

I said not easily AS marketable.  When Sugarbush sells those weddings with the chairlift rides I guarantee you they also have indoor backup locations they set aside unless you have a really laid back group who will tolerate rain.  The wedding party has to pay for that extra indoor space. The rental fees for that extra space is usually far less revenue than what the resort would get from selling it for a second event.

I make these comments having run catering operations for 300+ weddings at both ski resorts and urban hotels.   

Having the Tram available essentially doubles your wedding venue space over selling a package with a chairlift ride.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

jimmck said:


> Tell Sugarbush it's not easily marketable.  I believe they booked close to 30 weddings last year.



Skiers have no issue with chairlifts. Sugarbush weddings are geared towards more of a skier crowd. Non skiers prefer Trams or Gondolas. Height is a major reason. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I make these comments having run catering operations for 300+ weddings at both ski resorts and urban hotels.



Can you ballpark the percentage of top-line revenue summit weddings represent?  I wouldnt have guessed it's that big of a deal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you ballpark the percentage of top-line revenue summit weddings represent?  I wouldnt have guessed it's that big of a deal.



Oh weddings are BIG business in Vermont. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Skiers have no issue with chairlifts. Sugarbush weddings are geared towards more of a skier crowd. Non skiers prefer Trams or Gondolas. Height is a major reason.



Not so sure I agree with that. I know people that just love Vermont in the summer and don't ski but still thought it was cool to have a wedding on a mountain. The Mad River Valley is a beautiful place even for non-skiers.

Although dhs is right that I'm sure Sugarbush has a backup location available for the ceremony in the event of bad weather (either Timbers or Gate House Lodge most likely...)


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you ballpark the percentage of top-line revenue summit weddings represent?  I wouldnt have guessed it's that big of a deal.



I don't have an intimate enough knowledge of their operation to ballpark a figure, but it's the backup venue and lost revenue opportunity that is the real difference maker.

You can sell the Tram as a safe bet against weather with intimate indoor ceremony in the top lodge if it rains. Comparatively you can't sell a chairlift ride in the rain on the Flyer. 

So with the Tram / summit spce gone, anyone who books for a ceremony at the top of the Flyer, also has to book an indoor venue somewhere at the base in case it rains.    That space they book for backup could be sold to someone else for a full service event.  Conservatively that full service event could bring in $100 per guest. 

 So, say you only have a small wedding of 60 people.  How many brides/grooms are going to be willing to pay $6k to reserve that back up space in case their top of the Flyer plans get washed out? That's a really expensive insurance policy.  At that price most sane people would say, "let's just book Stowe Gondola and the Cliff House instead of worrying about what ifs with weather."

 Jay likely wouldn't charge the full $6k, but they'd also rather keep that space available to sell to someone else who wants to host a full service event over a backup ceremony space at reduced revenue.  

It's about maximizing event space and the Tram enables you to do that much more easily.  This is the very reason why Sunday River installed a Chondola instead of just a chairlift.  Maximizing revenue and event space.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Not so sure I agree with that. I know people that just love Vermont in the summer and don't ski but still thought it was cool to have a wedding on a mountain. The Mad River Valley is a beautiful place even for non-skiers.
> 
> Although dhs is right that I'm sure Sugarbush has a backup location available for the ceremony in the event of bad weather (either Timbers or Gate House Lodge most likely...)



My point was that skiers are used to riding chairlifts; the general public is not (and many are wary of sitting on a "chair".  They prefer a gondola).


----------



## AdironRider (Jun 4, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have an intimate enough knowledge of their operation to ballpark a figure, but it's the backup venue and lost revenue opportunity that is the real difference maker.
> 
> You can sell the Tram as a safe bet against weather with intimate indoor ceremony in the top lodge if it rains. Comparatively you can't sell a chairlift ride in the rain on the Flyer.
> 
> ...



This implies they consistently are having multiple+ weddings every Saturday, which is a stretch. 

Also, no one pays double during rainouts. That's bad business on the venues part. Their wedding business would go to hell real quick if they consistently did that. 

I've also done 300+ weddings as an F&B manager. I've never made, nor did my catering managers require, paying full boat if we had a rainout at the primary venue. Furthermore, 80% just hold the ceremony at the top of the mountain IME, and hold the actual reception elsewhere in the area or at the base. Old folks and mountaintops do not make an enjoyable wedding experience. 

This also completely ignores the fact that even with event space up top, its not really cost effective to hold a banquet up there. The logistics increase the cost 25%+ comparatively, so the whole notion of 6k being a breaking point doesn't hold that much water when they are paying extra to begin with. Cost is probably not driving their decision making. 

Chair vs. Tram probably makes little difference, but comparing the cache of Stowe vs. Jay? Yeah Stowe is going to win every time in the dream wedding scenario.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2016)

Almost every facility I've worked at charged for backup ceremony space if it meant potentially losing another event at full boat. that includes chain properties and independent facilities.  

I'm not sure how many weddings Jay has per season, but it would not surprise me at all if it were at least 2-3 every Saturday of wedding season


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## AdironRider (Jun 4, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Almost every facility I've worked at charged for backup ceremony space if it meant potentially losing another event at full boat. that includes chain properties and independent facilities.
> 
> I'm not sure how many weddings Jay has per season, but it would not surprise me at all if it were at least 2-3 every Saturday of wedding season



I'm not saying there aren't costs involved with relocating a venue, but you aren't double dipping at full boat. You don't need double staff, double the food, etc. 100 bucks a head just for the backup room at Jay, please. That is Four Seasons level money. 

2-3 in the general vicinity no doubt, but Jay proper pumping out 2-3 every weekend, I'm skeptical.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2016)

http://www.killington.com/summer/groups/weddings/venues

I find it odd that the Peak Lodge is not even mentioned. Obviously they do have affairs at the peak.


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> My point was that skiers are used to riding chairlifts; the general public is not (and many are wary of sitting on a "chair".  They prefer a gondola).



I think my mom is about the only non-skier I know that would have a problem with a chair...but she would have a problem with a gondola too I'm sure. :razz: Chairs used by non-skiers aren't that uncommon anymore with all the off-season activities resorts have now (scenic lift rides, fall foliage rides, etc). There are plenty of people that do these off-season activities that don't ski.



AdironRider said:


> Furthermore, 80% just hold the ceremony at the top of the mountain IME, and hold the actual reception elsewhere in the area or at the base.



In looking at Jay's website it looks like they only offer ceremony options at the top and all the reception choices are down the mountain.



deadheadskier said:


> Almost every facility I've worked at charged for backup ceremony space if it meant potentially losing another event at full boat. that includes chain properties and independent facilities.



Why not just use the reception space as the backup ceremony venue in the event of bad weather? Then all the arguments about potentially losing another event from having to reserve space "just in case it is needed" are thrown right out the window. I've been at weddings where that's what was done.


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## mriceyman (Jun 4, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> I'm not saying there aren't costs involved with relocating a venue, but you aren't double dipping at full boat. You don't need double staff, double the food, etc. 100 bucks a head just for the backup room at Jay, please. That is Four Seasons level money.
> 
> 2-3 in the general vicinity no doubt, but Jay proper pumping out 2-3 every weekend, I'm skeptical.



Shit 100 a head in jersey will get you a barn with horses as bartenders and sheep as waiters


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2016)

CD....I've certainly hosted weddings where that has been done, but it takes a real laid back crowd.  Most wedding parties want a separate ceremony venue from the reception.   It also depends on if you have the right space to do it.  There's also the issue of labor efficiency.  Most often while the ceremony is going on, the staff is putting the finishing touches on the reception space.  If you double up functionality of the space you have to call in staff earlier, which drives up labor costs and eats into profit.  Usually the only time we had such scenarios are when we physically had no other space available.

In regards to riding the chair, all families are different, but I know many of my elderly family members wouldn't be comfortable riding an open air chair, but would be fine on a gondola or tram.

I was curious how many weddings Jay does and they have over 60 booked this summer.  I'm sure they have numerous other social and conference events booked as well.  

http://www.leisurehotel.com/leisure-hotels-resorts-manage-jay-peak-resort/


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## AdironRider (Jun 4, 2016)

mriceyman said:


> Shit 100 a head in jersey will get you a barn with horses as bartenders and sheep as waiters
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Im talking just the event space.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2016)

[h=2]Ceremony Locations[/h]Killington offers two ceremony sites that blend perfectly with our mountain and garden landscape. We are happy to make all the rental arrangements from tent to chairs and to prepare and set up the site.* Plus, we will schedule an indoor site in case of inclement weather.*


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2016)

mriceyman said:


> Shit 100 a head in jersey will get you a barn with horses as bartenders and sheep as waiters



I think the sum of money many (most?) couples spend on weddings in 2016 is completely insane.   

 It's become commonplace for young, poor, couples to spend a sum on money on a one-day event, that would practically cover the down payment on the house that they likely cant afford.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think the sum of money many (most?) couples spend on weddings in 2016 is completely insane.
> 
> It's become commonplace for young, poor, couples to spend a sum on money on a one-day event, that would practically cover the down payment on the house that they likely cant afford.



QFT

One of the many lessons I learned in working in the wedding business was that there was no way I was going to get ripped off on my own wedding.

We spent $5k on ours for 50 people, but that included everything; all food, booze, wedding attire and renting a house on Lake Winnipesaukee for 3 nights that slept 14 people.  It was basically a long weekend bash for our close friends that stayed in the house, then a waterside ceremony and reception under a tent in the yard for family and other friends that made up the total .  I had a lot of connections in the industry that probably saved me $3K.  

It certainly wasn't anything like the average $25k+ bills that I used to hand the father of the bride.  Heck, one of the places I worked, they've got a photo album from a Million dollar wedding.  I wasn't working there at the time thankfully.  I can only imagine how demanding the people must have been to be spending that kind of cash.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 6, 2016)

And then at least half of them end in divorce


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And then at least half of them end in divorce



In the business, young couples (early 20s) were often called "future repeat business." Not that people who get married at an older age don't get divorced, but I'm sure the rates are higher for young people. 

 I remember one wedding when I was at the Wyndham (now Hilton) on Burlingtons waterfront.  New Years Eve. $30K. Groom 20, Bride 19.  I had two staff members that the mother of the bride requested not work the function because her daughter didn't like them in High School. :lol: Marriage lasted six months.


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## SIKSKIER (Jun 6, 2016)

Having been to 3 weddings at Cannon,all the receptions were at the bottom.The ceremonies were at the top.All 3 were outside but I'm sure the inside could have been used as a backup.As to chairlifts being used in summer by non skiers,Gunstock has a high non skier usage to get to the ziplines.I also attended a 20th wedding reuinion at the top of Gunstock via the chairlift.The couple though came in style though by helicopter!


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## steamboat1 (Jun 6, 2016)

Weddings were a lot cheaper 30 years ago. So was buying a house.


----------



## dlague (Jun 6, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> In the business, young couples (early 20s) were often called "future repeat business." Not that people who get married at an older age don't get divorced, but I'm sure the rates are higher for young people.
> 
> I remember one wedding when I was at the Wyndham (now Hilton) on Burlingtons waterfront.  New Years Eve. $30K. Groom 20, Bride 19.  I had two staff members that the mother of the bride requested not work the function because her daughter didn't like them in High School. :lol: Marriage lasted six months.



It is in sane to spend that much money!  Granted everyone goes into it with long term intentions but heck spend 6K or less and use the rest to get a boat, down payment on a vacation condo, take several nice trips, something but not on a party unless you have it to blow but most do not at that age and generally depend on the parents (who more than likely really do not want to spend that much but will).


----------



## raisingarizona (Jun 6, 2016)

I used to help cater weddings, after a few dozen the whole charade seemed really silly and a complete waste of money. It's kind of narcissistic too, that being said I am sort of of a cynical prick.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 6, 2016)

raisingarizona said:


> It's kind of narcissistic too...



Welcome to the selfie age!


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## steamboat1 (Jun 6, 2016)

I had 160 people at my wedding & made money.


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## abc (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And then at least half of them end in divorce


So what? life is to be lived. Wedding is just another big life party.

Assuming the couple (or their parents) has the money for it, that is.


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 7, 2016)

Jay has 70 weddings this summer.

Summit ceremony - $1,000
Free backup location - Tramside cafeteria
Wedding Barn as backup - $500


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## yeggous (Jun 7, 2016)

Half of marriages ending fun in divorce is a long outdated statistic. Divorce rates today are the lowest they have been in decades, especially for the educated. Newly married couples with college degrees have something like a 10% divorce rate over a decade.

Wedding prices are definitely up vs inflation. Hopefully the decreased frequency of repeat weddings more than compensates for the trend.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ironhippy (Jun 7, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Half of marriages ending fun in divorce is a long outdated statistic. Divorce rates today are the lowest they have been in decades, especially for the educated. Newly married couples with college degrees have something like a 10% divorce rate over a decade.



The other thing that messes up that statistic is 50% of the marriages ending in divorce is different than 50% of the people who get married get divorced.

Larry King has been married 8 times. EIGHT! That means 8 couples have stayed together in order to just make up for Larry King's marriages alone (if we're going by 50%)


----------



## abc (Jun 7, 2016)

Serial divorcer?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2016)

Just when I thought I had seen it all on this thread....we're now talking about marriage and weddings.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just when I thought I had seen it all on this thread....we're now talking about marriage and weddings.



LOL - to funny.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> Jay has 70 weddings this summer.
> 
> Summit ceremony - $1,000
> Free backup location - Tramside cafeteria
> Wedding Barn as backup - $500




Only $70k in top-line revenue resulting from summit weddings?  That's very non-impressive assuming that's correct.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Only $70k in top-line revenue resulting from summit weddings?  That's very non-impressive assuming that's correct.


Only 70 years to pay off repairs to the tram.


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Only $70k in top-line revenue resulting from summit weddings?  That's very non-impressive assuming that's correct.



Well they are taking in money from other parts of the weddings as well and one could argue that without a summit ceremony option some of the 70 weddings wouldn't take place at Jay at all if that option is what attracted people to choose Jay over another venue.

It would be interesting to know how many of the 70 weddings planned though are even using the summit for the ceremony. I'm sure not all are.


----------



## tree_skier (Jun 7, 2016)

yes F&B revenue is very large, that $1000 is just the space and seeing as they have a liquor license no out side booze so big money just there.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

I would think the hotel with it's banquet rooms are the biggest draw for weddings at Jay, not the tram.


----------



## tree_skier (Jun 8, 2016)

Never underestimate the photo op option on and at the top of the tram for a big draw with today's selfie crowd


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just when I thought I had seen it all on this thread....we're now talking about marriage and weddings.



Whatever it takes to get to 10k posts! :grin:


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## cdskier (Jun 8, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> Never underestimate the photo op option on and at the top of the tram for a big draw with today's selfie crowd



I'm a big fan of wedding pictures of couples riding a regular chairlift myself. The ones I've seen are pretty damn cool looking!


----------



## dlague (Jun 8, 2016)

Interesting, this reads like it should have been a Jay Peak thread like this one http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/131349-Jay-Peak-bombshell


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## thetrailboss (Jun 17, 2016)

http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain


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## oldtimer (Jun 17, 2016)

no news there-  idle speculation.




thetrailboss said:


> http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain


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## thetrailboss (Jun 17, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> no news there-  idle speculation.



Yeah, I thought that only one of the ideas was realistic.  Two were jokes.  The Coop is not feasible for that size operation.  State taking it over?  Yeah, right.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 17, 2016)

When courts get settled someone will come along & pick up Jay & Burke for a song. Don't know if both will be picked up by the same entity though. I'd think not.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> * State taking it over?  Yeah, right.*



Jay Peak will have offers.

Personally I wouldn't be shocked in the least bit if State of Vermont takes Burke over as an operationally money-losing taxpayer-funded charity rather than allowing it to NELSAP.  Politicians dont like job losses (especially their own).  Just take a look over the Lake at New York.


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## yeggous (Jun 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, I thought that only one of the ideas was realistic.  Two were jokes.  The Coop is not feasible for that size operation.  State taking it over?  Yeah, right.



Yeah because who has ever heard of the government running a ski area? (Sarcasm)


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## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Yeah because who has ever heard of the government running a ski area? (Sarcasm)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



True but I just don't see Vermont doing it. But then again anything could happen.


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## xwhaler (Jun 18, 2016)

NH should buy it and offer a Cannon - Burke combo pass! ⛷


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## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> NH should buy it and offer a Cannon - Burke combo pass! ⛷&#55357;&#56841;



:lol:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 18, 2016)

They can pickup Saddleback while they are at it...


----------



## yeggous (Jun 18, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> NH should buy it and offer a Cannon - Burke combo pass! ⛷



Should Burke and Jay be split, it's not far fetched to imagine Burke being added to the Super Pass.


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## xwhaler (Jun 18, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Should Burke and Jay be split, it's not far fetched to imagine Burke being added to the Super Pass.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Would be a pretty sweet offering for 93 skiers!


----------



## dlague (Jun 20, 2016)

http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2016)

dlague said:


> http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain



That's the article we've been talking about. 


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## dlague (Jun 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's the article we've been talking about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Late to the party I guess wondered where speciation came from.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 24, 2016)

Well the dust has settled and Burke Mountain is getting ready to celebrate one of its biggest milestones to date with the official opening of the Burke Mountain Lodge (formerly the Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center) on Thursday, September 1st.  Reservations are LIVE and you can be one of the first guests to stay in the Lodge over Labor Day Weekend with rates starting at just $192/night (based on 2 people staying in a studio suite).  You can book online or call our reservations team at (866) 966-4820.  Click here from complete details and for a look inside the Lodge.  

If you missed NEMBAfest this past weekend you're in luck because we are doing it all again next year with the dates already set:  June 16-18, 2017.  Situated mid-mountain with easy access to the Burke Bike Park and Kingdom Trails, the Burke Mountain Lodge even has safe and secure bike storage inside on the first floor.  Bike n' Stay packages are available now (and will be next year too for NEMBAfest).  Bike storage is FREE for every guest staying in one of our suites.  

Time continues to move quickly as next week we are already celebrating the 4th of July.  Burke Mountain will be celebrating Independence Day on Sunday, July 3rd with one of the areas largest firework displays.  Gates open at 5pm ($5.00/pp, children under age 5 free) with fun for the entire family including a bounce house, coloring contest, children's bike park (kids are encouraged to bring their own bikes and helmets), scenic chairlift rides, and live music by Beg Steal or Borrow.  Click here for complete details.  

Burke Bike Park is dialed in with our trail crew continuing to do a fantastic job tuning the trails.  From weed whacking to rock removal to new rollers and berms riders are enjoying every lap.  Never rode in a downhill park before?  No problem.  Let one of our talented instructors show you the fundamentals of riding in the Burke Bike Park getting you comfortable and relaxed to ultimately defy-gravity.  Click here for lesson information.

Burke Mountain Campground is also open and weekends are filling up fast.  Remember you can book online here or call guest services at (802) 626-7300.  
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]*DON'T FORGET - First tier winter season pass pricing ends Monday, July 11th.*[FONT=&quot]  Click here for complete details and to purchase.  Upgrades and expected snow making improvements will be announced by the end of the month as we finalize and prioritize what is possible to complete before we head into the 2016/17 winter season.  [/FONT] 


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## thetrailboss (Jun 24, 2016)

Love it.  Also nice nod that they changed the name of the hotel to the Burke Mountain Lodge.  Simple and easy.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Love it.  Also nice nod that they changed the name of the hotel to the Burke Mountain Lodge.  Simple and easy.


What a waste of $50m


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## Edd (Jun 25, 2016)

"Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center". It probably didn't take a very long meeting to come up with a better name than that. 

I've never been there in the summer but I'm a bit curious now.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Love it.  Also nice nod that they changed the name of the hotel to the Burke Mountain Lodge.  Simple and easy.


----------



## slatham (Jun 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> What a waste of $50m



How so? Could it have been built for $25M? Is Burke not worthy of a nice Hotel? Or are you just below quota for negative posts?


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## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2016)

slatham said:


> How so? Could it have been built for $25M? Is Burke not worthy of a nice Hotel? Or are you just below quota for negative posts?


The ski area isn't worth $50m hotel & all. Peak just paid $36m for Hunter hotel & all.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2016)

Well the Hunter hotel did cost $26M to build and I'd imagine the ski area alone is worth more than $10M. So, the resale on the hotel was likely at a bit of a loss, especially when factoring what that hotel would likely cost to build today 12 years later.

That said $50M does seem like a lot for what the property is.


----------



## mister moose (Jun 25, 2016)

If I'm an investor, do I care what some EB-5 group spent on it, or do I care about what proven income stream it can generate?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2016)

mister moose said:


> If I'm an investor, do I care what some EB-5 group spent on it, or do I care about what proven income stream it can generate?


The hotel has no proven revenue stream, it hasn't even opened. As for the ski area it has gone under several times over the past couple of decades. It would be very hard for anyone to put a number on Burke's potential revenue stream.


----------



## mister moose (Jun 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> The hotel has no proven revenue stream, it hasn't even opened. As for the ski area it has gone under several times over the past couple of decades. It would be very hard for anyone to put a number on Burke's potential revenue stream.


 i think that's my point.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

So is the Hotel worth the $50 million that was invested?  Likely not.  As has been revealed, the costs were allegedly inflated to ensure that some money went to Q himself.  

What to watch will be the next two seasons to see if it increases skier days to above 100k.


----------



## Edd (Jun 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> What to watch will be the next two seasons to see if it increases skier days to above 100k.



That's going to require an unprecedented (for Burke) level of marketing dollars. I hope they find and spend the money.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 27, 2016)

Saddleback couldn't make money attracting 100k plus skier visits & investing $40m plus.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

Edd said:


> That's going to require an unprecedented (for Burke) level of marketing dollars. I hope they find and spend the money.



Yep.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Saddleback couldn't make money attracting 100k plus skier visits & investing $40m plus.



That's true, but I'd say that Burke has a lot of differences including new lifts, much better location, easy access, a major ski racing academy, a now established bike trail system, etc.  Ideally Burke needs as many skier days as it can get.  

And did Saddleback actually have over 100k skier days?  I recall it being pretty close to Burke at the 75-90 range.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And did Saddleback actually have over 100k skier days?  I recall it being pretty close to Burke at the 75-90 range.


Last available figure is from the 11/12 season with 97k skier visits. It was stated at that time by Farmer (the manager I believe) that skier visits were expected to increase to 130k.

Quoted from a Dec 2012 Portland Herald article: _"Its annual skier visits have increased from 15,000 to 97,000, said Farmer, who expects 130,000 visits this season."_


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## steamboat1 (Jun 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Well the Hunter hotel did cost $26M to build and I'd imagine the ski area alone is worth more than $10M. So, the resale on the hotel was likely at a bit of a loss, especially when factoring what that hotel would likely cost to build today 12 years later.
> 
> That said $50M does seem like a lot for what the property is.


So what do you estimate Burke is worth? Don't forget contractors are still owed close to $5m.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't have a clue what it's worth. I was just pointing out that the investment into your example of Hunter likely greatly exceeded its sale price.  The cost of the hotel, new six pack and moving the quad to the west side probably exceeded the sale price alone especially when factoring inflation.

That's kind of the way these things work.  The value of the asset creation often doesn't add up to what it would sell for on the open market. So, the hope for the developers is that they recoup their investment with operating profits over time.  

 Take a look at a place like Stratton and their village. They probably have spent 100s of millions on that resort over the years. It wouldn't sell for that, but maybe they made it back over the years through operating profits.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have a clue what it's worth. I was just pointing out that the investment into your example of Hunter likely greatly exceeded its sale price.  The cost of the hotel, new six pack and moving the quad to the west side probably exceeded the sale price alone especially when factoring inflation.
> 
> That's kind of the way these things work.  The value of the asset creation often doesn't add up to what it would sell for on the open market. So, the hope for the developers is that they recoup their investment with operating profits over time.
> 
> Take a look at a place like Stratton and their village. They probably have spent 100s of millions on that resort over the years. It wouldn't sell for that, but maybe they made it back over the years through operating profits.


Don't forget the Japanese firm that owned Stratton before Intrawest lost their shirts. Intrawest in not on the best footing either with their debt load. In fact Intrawest isn't even Intrawest anymore. Intrawest sold to Fortress Investments in 2006.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 29, 2016)

Yup, remember the Japanese company. My father met with them while he was with bank of Boston and turned them down on a financing deal recognizing the risks were just too large with ski resorts.  

Tough business.  When I was with Intrawest 2002-2003 they were the envy of the ski industry and then it all came crashing down.  It's impressive that Vail Resorts has become so sustainable over the years when so many other companies have failed.   Intrawest as you mentioned, ASC and Booth Creek, which is still hanging on, but is a shadow of its former self.  

Booth Creek and George Gillette is an interesting story. He was a great businessman, one time owner of Vail too and he couldn't make it work in the industry.  This article is dated, but an interesting read on Booth and George. 

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/booth-creek-ski-holdings-inc-history/


----------



## Edd (Jun 29, 2016)

Wintry Mix podcast:  http://www.wintrymixcast.com/single...-Back-Vermont-Community-Embraces-Life-After-Q

It's 30 minutes long and interviews some relevant players and employees. Also, it has coverage of the Burke is Back party.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2016)

Edd said:


> Wintry Mix podcast:  http://www.wintrymixcast.com/single...-Back-Vermont-Community-Embraces-Life-After-Q
> 
> It's 30 minutes long and interviews some relevant players and employees. Also, it has coverage of the Burke is Back party.



Listened to it last night.  Very well done.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 29, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So what do you estimate Burke is worth? Don't forget contractors are still owed close to $5m.



When Burke goes for sale, it will be free of all creditors.  Whether or not these people get paid depends on the receiver.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2016)

Bump.  

There was a soft opening at the Hotel this weekend.  Posts online have been positive.  Anyone go?  I heard that, despite the weather, they had an average turnout at the Bike Park.  If it was a beautiful weekend it would have been a bigger turnout.  They had some folks stay overnight.  No issues.  

Things are in the works for a Passholder Meeting with the passholders and community during the Fall Festival.  They are working on having it accessible for folks via internet and phone.


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## River19 (Aug 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.
> 
> There was a soft opening at the Hotel this weekend.  Posts online have been positive.  Anyone go?  I heard that, despite the weather, they had an average turnout at the Bike Park.  If it was a beautiful weekend it would have been a bigger turnout.  They had some folks stay overnight.  No issues.
> 
> Things are in the works for a Passholder Meeting with the passholders and community during the Fall Festival.  They are working on having it accessible for folks via internet and phone.



We would have headed up the hill to the BnB to show support but we were out of town riding Pisgah in NC instead.

I heard it was decent but not like the turnouts back in the day.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2016)

River19 said:


> We would have headed up the hill to the BnB to show support but we were out of town riding Pisgah in NC instead.
> 
> I heard it was decent but not like the turnouts back in the day.



Yes, they were not happy with the weather.  

They are booking rooms this weekend.  I hear that the place is POSH to say the least.  Including a $450,000 ski tuning machine.


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## doublediamond (Aug 25, 2016)

IIRC the Fortress purchase of Intrawest was a leveraged buyout.  That's why debt is so high now.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> IIRC the Fortress purchase of Intrawest was a leveraged buyout.  That's why debt is so high now.


Fortress payed $1.8b cash but did assume $1b in Intrawest debt.


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## River19 (Aug 29, 2016)

My wife and I decided to take a spin up to the soft opening and hit the Gap Pub and see what the deal was....and also a chance to check out the new hotel.

As others have reported the hotel has damn good build quality and materials from a touch perspective.  

We went up and grabbed a drink at the bar and had an appetizer and decided to stay for dinner.  The menu was obviously in flux and had a combo of things from their higher end dining venue as well as "pub" far that will most likely remain in the Gap.  Wings were good, entrees were decent but a few execution issues which is to be expected.

Beer selection is the same as everywhere in town for the most part; wine prices by bottle are very reasonable.  View from the Gap is obviously fantastic but when you are at the bar itself you stare at a stone wall.  Tables and window front have the view.

We walked around the 2nd floor a bit and checked out what looks to be the "ski-in" cafe where the magic carpet ends and it was typical new hotel as far as feel.  The place needs some interior decorating to make it a little more homey......the place overall felt pretty antiseptic and commercial.  Which is understandable at this stage.

The bike storage room on the first floor is impressive, lots of $ went into that.

I wish them luck.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 29, 2016)

River19 said:


> We walked around the 2nd floor a bit and checked out what looks to be the "ski-in" cafe where the magic carpet ends and it was typical new hotel as far as feel.  The place needs some interior decorating to make it a little more homey......the place overall felt pretty antiseptic and commercial.  Which is understandable at this stage.



Look for the walls in the cafe area to have some "decorating" done later this week.


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## River19 (Aug 29, 2016)

Sweet !!  I was wondering if that was the original location/plan for your work.  It certainly needs it 

What wasn't entirely clear to me was the parking situation.....since it was lightly filled we parked right out front by the bike storage room just feet from the main entrance.  Where is the lot going to be for all the guests?


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 29, 2016)

River19 said:


> Sweet !!  I was wondering if that was the original location/plan for your work.  It certainly needs it
> 
> What wasn't entirely clear to me was the parking situation.....since it was lightly filled we parked right out front by the bike storage room just feet from the main entrance.  Where is the lot going to be for all the guests?



Some guest parking will be in the basement. The rest will be in the lot across the foot bridge. I'm wondering if they will have some sort of Valet service. Especially during peak times.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2016)

I thought that SKIING held back no punches from Junior in their latest edition.  Wow.  So glad he is gone.  The folks running things are trying their best to clean up the huge pile of sh^* left behind.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Look for the walls in the cafe area to have some "decorating" done later this week.



Decorating complete...


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 1, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Decorating complete...



The the large photo in the middle of the second picture is the same image as the one in the current Autumn issue of Vermont Life (pages 2 and 3).


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2016)

Coming soon to a trail near you:


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Coming soon to a trail near you:



This is the Burke thread. Not the Cannon/Mittersill thread. :wink:


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## doublediamond (Sep 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> This is the Burke thread. Not the Cannon/Mittersill thread. :wink:



Well Burke is getting a T-Bar to replace the poma for next year.  So Warren's Way will look a lot like this.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Well Burke is getting a T-Bar to replace the poma for next year.  So Warren's Way will look a lot like this.



Exactly my point. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 8, 2016)

Thought it was going to be a detachable t-bar?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2016)

It's officially open.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2016)

Shumlin's (at times awkward) speech:

https://www.facebook.com/QBurkeMtnR...48418413023/10154548381643023/?type=3&theater

I don't know where Burke Academy is.


----------



## yeggous (Sep 9, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Shumlin's (at times awkward) speech:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/QBurkeMtnR...48418413023/10154548381643023/?type=3&theater
> 
> I don't know where Burke Academy is.



Hiding under their desks. If I were then I would lay low and wait for this to blow over.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 12, 2016)

Are you f-in kidding me?Disgusting.


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## mriceyman (Sep 12, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It's officially open.



Amazing how much crap has gone on since the beginning of this debacle


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## oldtimer (Sep 12, 2016)

And yet--  the mountain looks better today than ever and has a more likely future than ever before.  weird.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 12, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> And yet--  the mountain looks better today than ever and has a more likely future than ever before.  weird.


Amazing what $50M + stolen money can do.


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## kingdom-tele (Sep 13, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> And yet--  the mountain looks better today than ever and has a more likely future than ever before.  weird.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


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## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> And yet--  the mountain looks better today than ever and has a more likely future than ever before.  weird.



Here was a similar place that looked better after a con man stole a bunch of money...

http://www.nelsap.org/me/evergreen.html


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Here was a similar place that looked better after a con man stole a bunch of money...
> 
> http://www.nelsap.org/me/evergreen.html



Still ride their summit lift every winter! ;-)


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 21, 2016)

*Public Season Pass Meeting - Sunday, October 2 12:30 PM - 2 PM*



> *Update*
> You may participate in in the meeting live via streaming video by clicking on this link
> 
> https://friendsofburke.webex.com/friendsofburke/onstage/g.php?MTID=ed8a09415516ddeae130cbae29d86a15c
> ...



Should be interesting listening.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 26, 2016)

Anybody listen or attend? Doesn't seem to be any info out there anywhere yet on what was talked about.


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## mbedle (Sep 27, 2016)

Kind of odd that you want people to look to you for guidance on wheather you should get a season pass and support the resort, but don't followup with any feedback on a meeting you jointly held with the resort.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 28, 2016)

http://friendsofburke.com/winter-operational-update/


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## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> http://friendsofburke.com/winter-operational-update/



That was a surreal read.  I can see why FoB has become very controversial.   I appreciate the passing of information, but the official endorsement for the purchase of a season pass was just bizarre.  That's a decision I'll make on my own, thank you very much.  How many people attended the meeting?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 28, 2016)




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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 28, 2016)

All stuff that should have been done *BEFORE* they even broke ground on the Hotel!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 28, 2016)

The only thing I'm curios about, that isn't really answered, is... Can they now make snow on one lower mountain trail, and one upper mountain trail simultaneously? Such as blow a beginner/return to lower lodge trail/ and a trail off the top? AND... *if so*, is there enough leftover to run the fans on the mid-mountain crossover/Training Hill also at the same time? 

If that is now possible, that would be great all around.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2016)

Current management seems to be on top of things now, which is why the locals now view FoB as a solution in search of a problem.

Your point is well taken.  Information about what is going into the system is only relevant in the context of what is going to come out of the system.  That information was less than clear.  I agree that it would be a huge improvement if they can make snow on the lower and upper mountains at the same time.


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## fbrissette (Sep 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That was a surreal read.  I can see why FoB has become very controversial.   I appreciate the passing of information, but the official endorsement for the purchase of a season pass was just bizarre.  That's a decision I'll make on my own, thank you very much.  How many people attended the meeting?



I'm not in the market for a Burke season pass, but if I was, this endorsement would have a big weight on my decision.   I would be happy someone went through a due diligence process without having to figure it out on my own.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I'm not in the market for a Burke season pass, but if I was, this endorsement would have a big weight on my decision.   I would be happy someone went through a due diligence process without having to figure it out on my own.


I can appreciate that.  I can assure you that the locals already knew this information.  But your point is well taken for those who are not in the loop.  Too bad they couldn't get this accomplished before the prices went up.  For a lot of people it may have come too late.  But at least it may give them some reassurance.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> The only thing I'm curios about, that isn't really answered, is... Can they now make snow on one lower mountain trail, and one upper mountain trail simultaneously? Such as blow a beginner/return to lower lodge trail/ and a trail off the top? AND... *if so*, is there enough leftover to run the fans on the mid-mountain crossover/Training Hill also at the same time?
> 
> If that is now possible, that would be great all around.



Pre-Q they used to be able to do this.


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## yeggous (Sep 28, 2016)

Yes my view of FoB is evolving. That endorsement is bizarre.


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----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Yes my view of FoB is evolving. That endorsement is bizarre.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


I appreciate that they shared the information, but the endorsement was officious.  From what I hear the mountain would rather have them as a friend than an enemy, but mountain management doesn't believe that they are bringing any value to the table now that things are running smoothly.  Again, they are a solution in search of a problem - which is actually a good thing.  They've just stayed at the party a little too late and haven't noticed that the lights have been turned off for a while.

It's definitely great to see the turnaround at Burke.


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's definitely great to see the turnaround at Burke.



I am waiting to judge a "turnaround" by how their season goes.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> I am waiting to judge a "turnaround" by how their season goes.


From a management perspective, it can't be worse than the last couple of years.  But that is definitely a low bar.


----------



## doublediamond (Sep 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Pre-Q they used to be able to do this.



That statement is very meaningless.  Greek Peak will make snow on a good portion of the mountain at once and half of the trails with pipe will have "SM" on them on the daily report in the cafeteria, but Greek does that with one gun on each trail.  Or you can light up half of the trails at Crotched, bury them overnight, and run out of pond water in a day or two.

The new fans installed on the training slope take a heck of a lot of water.  New HDK towers put out more snow than the old low-E guns of yesteryear. Tower guns closer together mean you need less diesel for pushing snow and less labor from moving ground guns around with hydrants further apart.  But that means even with the same water flow, you are making snow in fewer areas.

See how such a statement is meaningless?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> That statement is very meaningless.  Greek Peak will make snow on a good portion of the mountain at once and half of the trails with pipe will have "SM" on them on the daily report in the cafeteria, but Greek does that with one gun on each trail.  Or you can light up half of the trails at Crotched, bury them overnight, and run out of pond water in a day or two.
> 
> The new fans installed on the training slope take a heck of a lot of water.  New HDK towers put out more snow than the old low-E guns of yesteryear. Tower guns closer together mean you need less diesel for pushing snow and less labor from moving ground guns around with hydrants further apart.  But that means even with the same water flow, you are making snow in fewer areas.
> 
> See how such a statement is meaningless?



True that there is new hardware on some of the trails. But it's meaningful if you understand the history and the context.  Specifically, Q got rid of a lot of their capacity and did not replace it. However they are now back to where they were before with air capacity. 


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## wtcobb (Oct 13, 2016)

Took a ride across the river over the long weekend. Rime time on top.






Lifts were spinning for some maintenance work. 






Soon...


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## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2016)

Nice!  Thanks!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2016)

The latest:



> EB-5 Investors Object To Citibank Settlement
> Hearing Next Week On $13.3 Million Settlement
> Amy Ash Nixon
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2016)

WCVB's "Chronicle" covers Burke and Jay.  Provides a summary of the debacle with a nice ending that there is a new hotel and new facilities that are going and will be sold to a new owner(s).  

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/chronicle-uneasy-times-in-the-northeast-kingdom/42322032


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 4, 2016)

From FB:



> Fan guns firing up on Warren's Way


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2016)

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## oldtimer (Dec 5, 2016)

*Congrats to the Burke Team*

Not very many people came to ski, but those that did were rewarded by deep man made coverage where they had snow.  The vibe among the staff was great.  By Sunday morning the groomed product was excellent.  After the heavy rain thursday it dried out and froze up slowly so that it ultimately groomed into an excellent surface.  Some care required on Willoughby above darling point where they did manage to till up a couple of small pepples.

The mid-burke/ hotel cafeteria situation is odd.  Mid-Burke lodge is open but with no food or beverage until the Bear's Den opens at 11.  The cafeteria is happening at the hotel.  If the Mid-Burke lodge is meant to be the staging area for day trippers who do not want to go to the base lodge, it would be nice to be able to get a cup of coffee without going down to the hotel.

It is not at all clear what they consider their "day lodge" in the mid-Burke area.  The situation will be even more absurd when the Base lodge is open.  3 day lodge areas for a mountain that rarely has a crowd-  not sustainable.  That said, the hotel cafeteria will be crazy on days when they host weekend races if there is no mid-Burke Lodge and it is a long way from the hotel to the Poma for the race crowd.

nice weekend on the snow at Burke-  I am looking forward to seeing how they do for next weekend.  After this little shot of warm, temps look incredibly favorable well into the week before Christmas.  Is it possible we could go either left or right off the chair during Christmas week?


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## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Not very many people came to ski, but those that did were rewarded by deep man made coverage where they had snow.  The vibe among the staff was great.  By Sunday morning the groomed product was excellent.  After the heavy rain thursday it dried out and froze up slowly so that it ultimately groomed into an excellent surface.  Some care required on Willoughby above darling point where they did manage to till up a couple of small pepples.
> 
> The mid-burke/ hotel cafeteria situation is odd.  Mid-Burke lodge is open but with no food or beverage until the Bear's Den opens at 11.  The cafeteria is happening at the hotel.  If the Mid-Burke lodge is meant to be the staging area for day trippers who do not want to go to the base lodge, it would be nice to be able to get a cup of coffee without going down to the hotel.
> 
> ...



They should just use the old lodge for the bar and remove the cafe section and just add more seating to boot up.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> They should just use the old lodge for the bar and remove the cafe section and just add more seating to boot up.



That is a good point.  Seems weird to have three lodges.


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## oldtimer (Dec 5, 2016)

3 lodges and 3 bars-  I LOVE the Bear's Den but it does not seem viable given that there is another pub 400 yards away that needs to be profitable.



thetrailboss said:


> That is a good point.  Seems weird to have three lodges.


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## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> 3 lodges and 3 bars-  I LOVE the Bear's Den but it does not seem viable given that there is another pub 400 yards away that needs to be profitable.



I like the placement of the Bear's den. Ski in and ski out. I don't have to walk up to the lift.


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## dlague (Dec 5, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> They should just use the old lodge for the bar and remove the cafe section and just add more seating to boot up.


Will probably remain as the lodge for races.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## oldtimer (Dec 5, 2016)

Seems sensible but who has the $300k to $400k needed to bring the building into some form of code compliance and serviceability?  

No doubt BMA would love to have a place to host their weekend program and race days but that buidling is a money pit.....



dlague said:


> Will probably remain as the lodge for races.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 5, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> I like the placement of the Bear's den. Ski in and ski out. I don't have to walk up to the lift.



Didn't they put a new covered magic carpet in at the mid-lodge, so you don't have to walk up?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 5, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Not very many people came to ski, but those that did were rewarded by deep man made coverage where they had snow.  The vibe among the staff was great.  By Sunday morning the groomed product was excellent.  After the heavy rain thursday it dried out and froze up slowly so that it ultimately groomed into an excellent surface.  Some care required on Willoughby above darling point where they did manage to till up a couple of small pepples.
> 
> The mid-burke/ hotel cafeteria situation is odd.  Mid-Burke lodge is open but with no food or beverage until the Bear's Den opens at 11.  The cafeteria is happening at the hotel.  If the Mid-Burke lodge is meant to be the staging area for day trippers who do not want to go to the base lodge, it would be nice to be able to get a cup of coffee without going down to the hotel.
> 
> ...



Figured it would be a slow start attendance wise for them. But, I think as the season goes on, a lot of people, myself included, who've been staying away, will start returning. I think as word gets out that they are actually making a reasonable amount of snow, it will smooth a lot of bad feelings. A little help from Mother Nature wouldn't hurt either.

You'd think they'd move all the food into the new day-lodge, just keep the bar and basic drinks like coffee/hot chocolate/water/juice e.c.t. available at Bear's Den for those that are booting up or in for a quick break, or race teams/BMA practice.

The Hotel is building is going to be open 24/7 regardless, so that and Sherburne Lodge should be hosting the majority of the services. Mid-Burke should be Bear's Den and just basic lodge amenities until it's fate is decided.

When the new T-bar is installed, did they say if it was going to be extended lower, closer to the new lodge?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Figured it would be a slow start attendance wise for them. But, I think as the season goes on, a lot of people, myself included, who've been staying away, will start returning. I think as word gets out that they are actually making a reasonable amount of snow, it will smooth a lot of bad feelings. A little help from Mother Nature wouldn't hurt either.
> 
> You'd think they'd move all the food into the new day-lodge, just keep the bar and basic drinks like coffee/hot chocolate/water/juice e.c.t. available at Bear's Den for those that are booting up or in for a quick break, or race teams/BMA practice.
> 
> ...



Good points. And I think that the T-Bar is set to follow the same path as the Poma.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2016)

Latest VTD article on Burke:

https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/08/bur...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-82cca1a9a8-405558657


And for those that were wondering about last season.....



> The early start and a big boost in snowmaking should help increase skier visits, which came in last year at about half of the roughly 70,000 skier visits a year the mountain had seen in the past, Mack said. A lot of that drop, he added, is attributed to the lack of snowfall last season, which led to reduced skier visits at resorts across the East.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 9, 2016)

This made me laugh today.
On Burkes snow report: If this keeps up we should be able to open more then double the terrain heading into next weekend.

They have 1 run open today so look for 2 next weekend.


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## wtcobb (Dec 9, 2016)

Hey now: more than double would give three runs.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 9, 2016)

That "more than double" is likely to include the Dippers and Upper Warrens Way which by far take the most snow making resources to get covered. After those large main trails are done they can spread out around the upper and lower mountain increasing trail counts quickly from there. 
This is roughly the logical plan that Burke skiers wanted Q Jr to follow but for whatever reason logic didn't apply to him and he made sure the terrain park was top priority instead.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2016)

It's nice to see the vibe up there this year.  Things really have changed for the better.

NEK, don't you think that they need to get the lower mountain open sooner than later just for the parking alone?  I wouldn't fault them if they did so.  Ary, however, seemed to want the ENTIRE lower mountain open before he turned the guns back up on the main mountain.  That was crazy.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 9, 2016)

From what I hear a opening a lower mountain route is the next focus. I'm not sure if they will start this weekend. The upcoming weather is perfect for making snow (other than the wind).

It seems like the mountain should have enough natural snow that getting Midway-High Meadows pass open could be done with one day of targeted snowmaking. Having Midway-HMP open would connect the Sherburne lift to the Hotel and then the base lodge.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That "more than double" is likely to include the Dippers and Upper Warrens Way which by far take the most snow making resources to get covered. After those large main trails are done they can spread out around the upper and lower mountain increasing trail counts quickly from there.
> This is roughly the logical plan that Burke skiers wanted Q Jr to follow but for whatever reason logic didn't apply to him and he made sure the terrain park was top priority instead.



Terrain park and techno music. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2016)

The hotel is now 40% off for Christmas week.  $379 for a family of four in a one bedroom suite including lift tickets.  $229 for two people in a studio suite.


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## River19 (Dec 12, 2016)

The vibe around the area is much lighter.......there was a heaviness that is gone.....and to hear things around town like "the mountain is looking great and open 30 days earlier.....so happy for them".....vs.  "what the heck are they doing?  Hopefully they will have a single run for Christmas".......support vs. passive aggressive energy.

Mother Nature is certainly helping......


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## wtcobb (Dec 12, 2016)

Q-less beats clueless all day, every day.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 12, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The hotel is now 40% off for Christmas week.  $379 for a family of four in a one bedroom suite including lift tickets.  $229 for two people in a studio suite.



If you go thru the homepage or any other way, you may not be seeing the discount, and need the coupon code.



> USE PROMO CODE: HOLSKI40



http://skiburke.com/deals/holiday-savings/


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## crank (Dec 12, 2016)

Yes.  I tried to book through their site and the price was 379 for 2 people.  Didn't see a promo code though there was a place to insert one.  I called the reservations desk and yes the price is $229 for 2.

We are visiting some friends who live in Sunape, NH starting the 26th and I think we will break away to Burke for a couple of days like 29th and 30th.  Hoping they will have a good amount of terrain open and lower crowds than the major areas.

How much snow have they been getting as compared to Stowe or Jay?


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## crank (Dec 17, 2016)

We just booked a room for the 28th and 29th.  Think snow!


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## oldtimer (Dec 19, 2016)

*Webcam*

Does anyone know the powers that be??   How do we get them to turn the webcam around so that instead of seeing an incredibly static view of the hotel we can see the view up the mountain?  Seems like a small thing, but if a webcam is supposed to generate some buzz and interest, it should be interesting.


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## Edd (Dec 19, 2016)

How'd Burke make out with rain?


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 19, 2016)

Can only guess (I was there Saturday for the snow part), but they got more snow than was expected, I think it must have been an overall gain in depth. Snow was pretty deep in the woods but with no base, I imagine now its a little crustier and compacted, maybe not a bad thing in the long run.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 19, 2016)

Here is their positive spin on yesterdays weather.

 Yesterday, well, focusing on the plus side water levels rose significantly to keep our snow making efforts going strong and the moisture certainly settled the snow pack with a nice crust.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 20, 2016)

According to the stake at my house the snow depth came out pretty much even, but the snow quality went from being perfect powder to solid base. Pretty much a perfect setup for the rest of the season assuming we get some snow on top of it.

The river water level is very important and I imagine they were getting close to having to shut down the withdrawal from the East Branch due to low levels. They have been blowing snow like crazy with these cold temps. Lots of trails are opening up. 
Hopefully Thrusday's clipper drops at least 5 inches. If so, Burke should be over 70% open for the upcoming Holiday week.


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## crank (Dec 20, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> According to the stake at my house the snow depth came out pretty much even, but the snow quality went from being perfect powder to solid base. Pretty much a perfect setup for the rest of the season assuming we get some snow on top of it.
> 
> The river water level is very important and I imagine they were getting close to having to shut down the withdrawal from the East Branch due to low levels. They have been blowing snow like crazy with these cold temps. Lots of trails are opening up.
> Hopefully Thrusday's clipper drops at least 5 inches. If so, Burke should be over 70% open for the upcoming Holiday week.



Thanks for the report.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 20, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> According to the stake at my house the snow depth came out pretty much even, but the snow quality went from being perfect powder to solid base. Pretty much a perfect setup for the rest of the season assuming we get some snow on top of it.
> 
> The river water level is very important and I imagine they were getting close to having to shut down the withdrawal from the East Branch due to low levels. They have been blowing snow like crazy with these cold temps. Lots of trails are opening up.
> Hopefully Thrusday's clipper drops at least 5 inches. If so, Burke should be over 70% open for the upcoming Holiday week.



Good to hear.  But you need to change that avatar to Burke


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## VTKilarney (Dec 20, 2016)

Wow!

https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/20/burke-first-u-s-ski-team-development-site/


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## Edd (Dec 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Wow!
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/20/burke-first-u-s-ski-team-development-site/



Yes, indeed.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Wow!
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/20/burke-first-u-s-ski-team-development-site/



How does this work with the agreement Cannon has? Is this for people not on the US team yet where as the Cannon agreement is for those on the team but still in development?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 21, 2016)

To pull that off my guess is they must have handed the U.S Ski Team the keys to the castle.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Good to hear.  But you need to change that avatar to Burke



Better?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 21, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Better?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 21, 2016)

I had a chance to ski this morning.  The rain definitely took its toll.  But they are doing what they can do to rebound.  Conditions were quite firm, but you could definitely hold an edge.

The biggest issue is getting Upper Dipper open in time for Christmas.  Right now, the only viable way to get to Big Dipper is to take Deer Run.  Deer Run is an absolute mess.  It's a sheet of ice and there isn't enough snow to even groom it.  It just isn't worth it to ski half of the Dippers.  This means that the only other way down is Willoughby (to Warren's Way).  That leaves precious little real estate for Christmas - especially with a real hard pack for a surface.  If they can get Upper Dipper open, this will give two viable routes down on either side of the mountain.  There are whales on Upper Dipper, so I am crossing my fingers. 

They were making quite a bit of snow on the lower mountain today.  It looks like Binney Lane is about to come online.

They are definitely making whatever snow they can, and they seem to be able to make more snow at one time.  I can't fault them for lack of effort.  Hopefully they get a little bit more out of tomorrow's storm than they are predicting.  At least we are way ahead of where we were last Christmas.


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## crank (Jan 2, 2017)

We stayed at the new hotel 12/28-30.  Studio king room was nice and well laid out.  The staff is new and we expected some glitches.  Room did not get made up one day, waited 2 hours for our meals at the restaurant.  They were a little slow opening up the coffee/breakfast counter in the morning.  Overall though a good experience and at $229.00 with 2 lift tickets it was a great deal.  Hotel was full for our last night there and for NYE.

We skied Loon with some friends on Wednesday and drove over to Burke after skiing.  Thursday we xc skied at Kingdom trails then skied Burke 2-4 in the storm and it was starting to get pretty nice.  We got on line for the quad at about 8:45 Friday morning  with about 30 folks ahead of us and maybe 50 behind when the lift opened at 9.  Longish line all morning.  We got in 4 runs on the quad and 1 on the poma, all with fresh tracks on at least part of each run.  They got about 8" overnight and it snowed pretty hard until around 11AM Friday.  

No food service other than Bear Den at mid mountain lodge and that was crowded with a long line to order so we hit the pub in the hotel and it was pretty good and our food came reasonably fast.  There is a cafeteria/ day lodge in the lodge but it did not look very appetizing.  After lunch we took a nap in our room  (love staying slopeside) and then skied left over pow, soft crud and soft bumps until closing. Lines were gone by 2.  Burke was aggressive about opening terrain and thin cover did not keep us out of the glades or off Ledges.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2017)

Did than try and run the Willoughby Quad to knock the line down some or is that lift RIP?

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dlague (Jan 2, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Did than try and run the Willoughby Quad to knock the line down some or is that lift RIP?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


I think that lift is only used as a back up.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2017)

That's not the first time I've heard about really slow service at the Pub. Seems they are still working out kinks. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## crank (Jan 2, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Did than try and run the Willoughby Quad to knock the line down some or is that lift RIP?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app




They just ran the express and the poma.  We never ventured to the base lodge area.

Regarding food services at hotel - I went to the new Hotel Jay a few years ago on a similar promotion the week before Christmas and the service and food was much worse than Burke's.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2017)

I just wanted to chime in and say that I am really impressed with how things are going at Burke this year.  They seem very dedicated to putting out as good a product as possible, and the results are showing.  Most of all, you can tell that management is listening to the employees and are using their knowledge to their advantage.

My only gripes are with food and beverage.  We tried to eat at the Gap Pub on a not so busy day, but gave up after waiting for 15 minutes at a table that hadn't even been cleared yet.  We proceeded to the cafeteria in the new hotel, and were given the worst cheeseburgers I have ever had.  They were essentially small chunks of carbon in a bun that was twice the size.  My wife noticed that the cook was reheating already cooked burgers.  If you wanted lettuce or tomato to help distract you from the bad burger, you were out of luck.  Overall, the cafeteria in the new hotel is a real disappointment.  It's more of an after thought than a genuine cafeteria.

At both the Mid-Burke and Sherburne cafeterias, I have yet to see a pre-made sandwich made on the same day.  If you are lucky they were made the day before, but I have also seen plenty of sandwiches for sale that were made 2 or, on one occasion, 3 days prior.  At the prices they are charging that is just inexcusable.

The good news is that the F&B issues should be pretty easy to fix.  They are spending money on the skiing product, so these issues are pretty minor.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2017)

dlague said:


> I think that lift is only used as a back up.


Prior management made it clear that the lift was not going to run.  I haven't heard anything different from the new management.


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## River19 (Jan 9, 2017)

VTK  -Sorry to hear about the F&B aspect.  I'm not too surprised given that something budgetary had to give and I would much rather see them invest in the product on the slopes than having great food but no terrain open.  

Any word from the Tammarack?  I think I heard a couple friends were going to be working there but I noticed no one has mentioned the 'rack at all.  Granted the lower mountain hasn't been open as long as the mid/upper.

How are people viewing the purchase of the new to them groomer?  Investment make sense or should they have possibly thrown some coin to F&B?  Just looking for an opinion or 12....

I 100% agree it is night and day vibe around town these days.....Mother Nature helped a ton but Goldberg/Leisure have been doing their part as well.

Thanks


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2017)

Here is my take - and it's only a guess.

I think that they are doing whatever they can do to increase revenues this year under the assumption that a multiple of revenue is going to drive the purchase price.  With that in mind, I think that they see the hotel as being the biggest opportunity for increasing revenue.  And let's face it - a potential purchaser is going to have to believe in the viability of the hotel.  The ski area without the hotel is a poor investment to say the least.

My gut feeling is that the F&B missteps are a combination of not having the right management on board, and trying to cut corners hoping that nobody would notice.  One real problem with the current setup is that F&B is very schizophrenic.  For a small scale operation, you have three cafeterias, three bars/pubs, and a full service restaurant.  That is just not efficient.  

This is why it's so frustrating to see how dinky the Mid-Burke cafeteria is.  It doesn't make it easy to consolidate into that space.

If they want repeat hotel business, they definitely need to up their F&B game.  I'm confident that they can get there with different F&B management.  Any current manager who allowed a three day old sandwich to be sold just doesn't deserve their job.  Harsh, maybe, but true.

As for the new groomer... I really wasn't expecting that.  I wonder if there was a need that they haven't mentioned - such as a lease coming to an end or some mechanical problems with existing stock.  It is definitely not an expense that most visitors will notice that much.  But it definitely shows that they are serious about making this work, and for that I am very thankful and optimistic.

One difference that I hadn't mentioned is snowmaking.  It is still an anemic system compared to most ski areas, but they have definitely figured out how to get the system to make more snow than under the Quiros regime.  I give them a lot of credit for upping their game in that department.  Especially when they have a huge arrears with the electric company.  The Caledonian Record said that it was about $400,000.  The payments they have promised have not materialized.  

My uneducated guess is that they really need to get the resort sold this year.  The hotel didn't look that busy this weekend, which suggests that the profitability of the hotel's winter season is going to boil down to the holidays.  That is not surprising for a place like Burke.  They have LOTS of creditors, and they can only kick that can down the road for so long.

I believe, however, that current management is doing absolutely everything they can do - and that they know what they are doing.


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## River19 (Jan 9, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I believe, however, that current management is doing absolutely everything they can do - and that they know what they are doing.



Something no one would have ever said in the past couple years right?  So that is a very good thing.

Hopefully Mother Nature keeps helping....this week's warmup is a bummer......


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2017)

Burke used to have three good grooming machines.  My understanding was that one broke and Q refused to fix it.  

I would imagine that this machine, with a number on it, is a leased unit or a demo.  They had a demo last year too.


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## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2017)

https://www.groupon.com/deals/ga-bk-burke-mountain-hotel-conference-center
10% off with code SALE3


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke used to have three good grooming machines.  My understanding was that one broke and *Q refused to fix it.  *



Did they ever spend money on anything not directly required by more incoming funds (i.e. EB-5)?


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## skimagic (Jan 10, 2017)

I cant make sense of the Groupon deal,  it says  "[FONT=OpenSans, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif]One day of access to ski for each night stayed."  I assume that means one ski pass  per night? or two passes?  Or do i have  _access  _to ski, but not the pass?[/FONT]

[FONT=OpenSans, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Tahoma, Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif]How is the hotel doing?   116 rooms seems pretty tough to fill, even on a holiday. [/FONT]


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## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2017)

skimagic said:


> I cant make sense of the Groupon deal,  it says  "One day of access to ski for each night stayed."  I assume that means one ski pass  per night? or two passes?  Or do i have  _access  _to ski, but not the pass?
> 
> How is the hotel doing?   116 rooms seems pretty tough to fill, even on a holiday.



I asked waiting for response?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Did they ever spend money on anything not directly required by more incoming funds (i.e. EB-5)?



So BEFORE Q they ALWAYS invested what little they had in the skiing product.  

After Q, it was a shit show.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So BEFORE Q they ALWAYS invested what little they had in the skiing product.
> 
> After Q, it was a shit show.



That could be misinterpreted, even though I understand your intent.  A better way to say it would be, "During Q."  Current management is "after Q" and they are doing a much better job.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 10, 2017)

skimagic said:


> How is the hotel doing?   116 rooms seems pretty tough to fill, even on a holiday. [/FONT]


The fact that they have put up discounted rooms on Groupon is not a great sign.  There are still rooms for MLK weekend, even rather heavily discounted Groupon rooms.  And with a 15 day cancellation window it's not likely because people cancelled due to weather.  Although, I doubt that many late-bookers waiting to see the weather wound up booking.

On the other hand, they seemed to do okay during Christmas.  I'm not sure how many nights they were sold out, but there was definitely some decent business.


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## crank (Jan 10, 2017)

We stayed there 12/28 - 12/30.  We had reservations for 28th & 29th and booked a third night on the morning of the 29th.  So the hotel was not yet full.  They eventually did sell out all rooms for the 30th and 31st we heard.  

Our stay was at the promotional rate of $229. per night with 2 lift tix.


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## River19 (Jan 10, 2017)

MLK weekend is tough.........with most ski areas reaping the benefit of a solid kick in the ass from Mother Nature there are a lot of choices...all with decent skiing conditions.  It feels like it is coming down to promotions......everyone will be discounting to get people on the mountains......or am I misreading that?

I've been wrong before.......twice.....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2017)

Nice story:

http://www.wcax.com/story/34228930/us-ski-team-affiliation-a-boon-for-burke-mountain-community


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## wtcobb (Feb 2, 2017)

Burke was looking preeeetty nice last night. Guns going on Dipper. The woods looked tasty, just not by headlamp.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2017)

Conditions were fantastic today.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2017)

For those that will be around on February 25th, this is shaping up to be a nice event.  The proceeds are going to the Poma/Race Project, Kingdom Kids, and the Friends of Burke Mountain.

https://www.facebook.com/events/398018890559142


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## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2017)

From News 7:
At around 5:30 Burke Fire and Rescue responded to a flood on the ground floor at the Burke Mountain Hotel. News 7 was on the scene and the building appeared to be evacuated and no one was allowed to enter the premises. We will have more updates as they come.

UPDATE: The hotel has been shut down for the night and there are crews inside cleaning. It is expected to be operational by morning.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> From News 7:
> At around 5:30 Burke Fire and Rescue responded to a flood on the ground floor at the Burke Mountain Hotel. News 7 was on the scene and the building appeared to be evacuated and no one was allowed to enter the premises. We will have more updates as they come.
> 
> UPDATE: The hotel has been shut down for the night and there are crews inside cleaning. It is expected to be operational by morning.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 13, 2017)

This morning was really good at Burke...

Some random shots of people skiing the lift line on the first couple of chair rides:




Burke Powder day-32 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




Burke Powder day-34 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




Burke Powder day-35 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




Burke Powder day-37 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




Burke Powder day-40 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


And a couple more of some friends:




Burke Powder day-53 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr




Burke Powder day-63 by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## jmorrison518 (Feb 13, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> From News 7:
> At around 5:30 Burke Fire and Rescue responded to a flood on the ground floor at the Burke Mountain Hotel. News 7 was on the scene and the building appeared to be evacuated and no one was allowed to enter the premises. We will have more updates as they come.
> 
> UPDATE: The hotel has been shut down for the night and there are crews inside cleaning. It is expected to be operational by morning.



This was not actually what happened. There was an issue, but we were allowed back in our rooms by 10:00. We ran into town and had dinner and by the time we got back everybody was just waiting for the "all clear" from the fire chief. Once that came we were allowed back upstairs. in the end they comped us our room, so for about 3 hours of inconvenience we ended up getting a free night. Was worth it in the end.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2017)

jmorrison518 said:


> This was not actually what happened. There was an issue, but we were allowed back in our rooms by 10:00. We ran into town and had dinner and by the time we got back everybody was just waiting for the "all clear" from the fire chief. Once that came we were allowed back upstairs. in the end they comped us our room, so for about 3 hours of inconvenience we ended up getting a free night. Was worth it in the end.



News 7 is great, but they are student journalists and sometimes they get things wrong.  At least we know that something happened.....


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2017)

jmorrison518 said:


> in the end they comped us our room, so for about 3 hours of inconvenience we ended up getting a free night. Was worth it in the end.


Very nice of them to do that.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 13, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Very nice of them to do that.



No doubt. I'd have been "donating" in the bar until last call if they'd done that for me! :grin:


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## oldtimer (Feb 14, 2017)

Skiing Sunday was good to excellent after the woods have been cut up by some hearty souls.  It improved as the snow came in in the afternoon.  Skiing yesterday was flat out FABULOUS.  What a difference a year makes.  Snow making has been incredible.  The staff has been fantastic & the vibe has been as good as ever.  A small, but telling thing:: Monday morning on a powder day, they open the lower lift EARLY so those who live down below can get in the upper lift line before 0900.  Simple thing, yes.  But it made a huge difference in terms of customer service yesterday. WHAT A TREAT.  We all hope the team is successful and can generate enough cash to carry on until a buyer is found.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> Skiing Sunday was good to excellent after the woods have been cut up by some hearty souls.  It improved as the snow came in in the afternoon.  Skiing yesterday was flat out FABULOUS.  What a difference a year makes.  Snow making has been incredible.  The staff has been fantastic & the vibe has been as good as ever.  A small, but telling thing:: Monday morning on a powder day, they open the lower lift EARLY so those who live down below can get in the upper lift line before 0900.  Simple thing, yes.  But it made a huge difference in terms of customer service yesterday. WHAT A TREAT.  We all hope the team is successful and can generate enough cash to carry on until a buyer is found.



It is good to see that the staff is given the ability to THINK and do things like this.


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## wtcobb (Feb 15, 2017)

1,000 words. 


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## oldtimer (Feb 15, 2017)

Ohe man, can't figure out how to play hookey again this week.  Jealous.


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## 56fish (Feb 16, 2017)

My 3 words - Really nice pic!


1,000 words.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2017)

Drip, drip, drip......

https://vtdigger.org/2017/02/15/sco...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-9b047b2eff-405570937


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## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2017)

I'm not sure that I've ever seen a line like this at Burke.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure that I've ever seen a line like this at Burke.
> 
> View attachment 21886



Good to see!!!


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## VTKilarney (Feb 18, 2017)

And getting bigger...


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## deadheadskier (Feb 18, 2017)

Would be nice to spin the fixed grip when it gets that crowded. Good for them though

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## crank (Feb 18, 2017)

That's twice the line we had on the December 30 Powder day!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 18, 2017)

Looks like a positive cash flow day!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 18, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Would be nice to spin the fixed grip when it gets that crowded. Good for them though
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Agreed


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

Bump.  

I returned to the NEK to see an ill family member and it gave me an excuse to go to Burke for a great day of skiing and apres with the Dawn Patrol.  

Rented skis from Village Sport Shop and talked with a longtime Burkie who observed that the mountain has had a good season with good spirits.  The receiver is getting very good reviews and he gets a lot of points for genuinely working with the locals and being responsive.  The mountain manager struggled...I don't know who it is but he did not have much experience.  They also had some hiccups with snowmaking and trying to get things going with new folks, but they blew snow when they had to, turned the attitude around, and the ski area has had a much needed GOOD season.  For the first time in a long time VSS had very little inventory from a good winter.  The shop looks great, but the gun shop has been sold and is moving to another location.  

East Burke is looking good...a couple new businesses have sprung up. East Burke Sports was switching over to biking and trying to get ahead of what promises to be a very busy bike season.  The guys were all excited about the past ski season and a good summer.  

The mountain:  wow.  Every interaction with employees was VERY positive....like it always was.  Crowds were relatively small on a beautiful Sunday.  The mountain skied VERY well...midwinter conditions to start giving way to spring sorbet.  I did not venture off the snowmaking runs because of my crew and rentals.  Every single Q has been eliminated.  Grooming was great.  Snowmaking runs are SOLID edge to edge.  Bear Den was packed in the afternoon.  Nice to see Kristen smile. I heard that the management spent a little money to be sure that they at least had one decent band a week at the Bear Den and that the response was positive.  Folks in my crew said they came up (even if they did not ski), listened to the music, bought some drinks, and hung out.  That was new.   

The highlight?  A VIP tour of the Hotel thanks to a family member who works there.  She showed me each of the three levels of guest rooms--even the "entry" level studio has a full kitchen and deck.  Nicely appointed.  Nice woodwork.  No expense spared.  Very comfortable.  Lots of local merch in the rooms.  Great art.  Amazing bathrooms.  The one bedrooms were spacious and also very nice.  The suite units were well appointed.  Surprisingly, the one bedrooms and suites only had a "standard" hotel tub (that looked pretty cheap) as opposed to jetted tubs that I expected.  Staff were very upbeat despite a lot of empty rooms.  

Main floor (second floor) had a now empty high-end restaurant that I was told "just did not work".  Prices, at $40 a plate, did not attract any local business (as can be expected) and was not sustainable.  They will mothball it for now and use it as a function room.  Lots of good conference rooms--I'd ditch the "Governor's Room" and "Chittenden" rooms after the recent EB-5 fiasco and rename them something else...perhaps something more local.  Nice touch naming a room for Warren Witherell.  The pub looked VERY classy and had a great view.  My tour guides lamented that it obviously is not as authentic as the Bear Den nor as comfortable as the Tamarack Lounge.  The Tamarack, by the way, really struggled because it had no real chef I understand.  As to the new pub it reminded me of how us Sugarbushers felt when the new Castlerock Pub opened...."it feels sterile."  That said, the current management did a great job digging out old Burke posters and items to display and it looked great.  New art was also great.  

Continuing on the main floor--the "day lodge" was very nice and had a small snack bar.  Foodservice has not worked out the scheduling and bugs.  It was spacious and had nice post and beam framing.  Downside: no real character.  Works great as a staging area for hotel guests.  Not so good for day trippers who have to walk far from the parking lots.  The arcade was closed.  The Vertical Drop, another nod to the past, was impressive--great variety of MANY things including tons of logo gear.  A real improvement from the days when it was hard for a Burkie fan to find logo gear, especially late in the season.  Full sports gear selection as well.  Nice art for sale.  A homerun in my mind.  The sales guy was an LSC student in the rec program and said that he really liked working for the new team.  I will confess that my luggage is packed with Burke stuff to bring home.  The small coffee shop was a nice touch and looked great.  The pool is small and nice.  Only open "when it was above 20 degrees" or so apparently.  The rental shop, stocked with NEW skis, never opened.  The Montana I think is gone.  I had more than one person comment to me about "how stupid" that purchase was.  

All furnishings were amazing. They have had some minor issues including sprinkler systems that have burst in the attic causing flooding on the second floor and some paint coming off here and there outside.  To be expected unfortunately.  This was not a pre-fab building thrown together--they did a solid job overall.  

The lobby was amazing.  It felt like Park City.  Very impressive.  

On my way down the access road I saw a Zoning Permit notice and got out to read that indeed the T-Bar project is moving ahead with a meeting set for either tomorrow night or Wednesday night for the Planning Board to consider.  Voice your support.  

I was very disappointed to hear that despite the overall positive season, and a good but slow start for the Hotel, that at least one or two local hotel owners had complained that they felt that the Hotel was "undercutting" their business and that the Mountain was unfairly stealing business.  One year ago we were set to have NO ski season.  Considering how far things have come hearing this was sad.  In my mind someone who stays at the Hotel is NOT a customer that would want an intimate B&B experience and vice-a-versa.  One couple stopped me at the top when they heard me talking about the Hotel and said "it was amazing" and "impressive" offering a great value.  Their biggest compliment?  Kitchens in the room.  I hope that this issue gets resolved.  We will see how the summer goes--word has it that they have done some great deals for key mountain bike weekends including the NEMBA Fest where they were selling a KILLER deal ($99 rate IIRC).  16 weddings also booked for this year. 

Heard a story on the news where the receiver admitted that his timeline for sale was 1, but probably 2 years, for both resorts.  Locals are very happy with the current crew.  I heard about some "meetings" taking place recently at the Hotel with mountain ops and consultants to discuss snowmaking expansion and terrain expansion.  My source was there and saw and heard it.  That surprised me.  

Also surprising to me and others were multiple reports that Bill Stenger STILL routinely comes to the mountain, shows people around, has "high level meetings" in his "consultant role", drives a company vehicle, and has a presence.  My Dad saw him in the Lyndonville McDonalds last week.  Folks generally are very skeptical of him and his plea of ignorance.   

So all in all much better than I expected.  Great to see my mountain holding its own.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

Still looking good. 








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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

Shots from the Hotel:














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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

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## SIKSKIER (Apr 11, 2017)

Nice report TB.As far as Stenger goes,I feel it was certainly Q that hatched this plan and Stenger played along.If I had to put a % on the blame pie I would say 80% Q and 20 Stenger.FWIW.I think Stenger probably is good at his current job and the SEC needed somebody for that role and they got him to sing at the same time.Actually happens a lot where people get immunity for emptying their brains and spilling the beans.I have mixed feelings about him.


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## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> I have mixed feelings about him.



I don't.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Nice report TB.As far as Stenger goes,I feel it was certainly Q that hatched this plan and Stenger played along.If I had to put a % on the blame pie I would say 80% Q and 20 Stenger.FWIW.I think Stenger probably is good at his current job and the SEC needed somebody for that role and they got him to sing at the same time.Actually happens a lot where people get immunity for emptying their brains and spilling the beans.I have mixed feelings about him.



His reputation is shot.  It's sad.  A lot of folks don't see him as credible at all.  I know a lot of local businesses who did business with him over the decades that will privately say that he was always known for never paying Jay's bills and always was late and had excuses.  They didn't see him favorably, but then again it was a ski area and it was MSS.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> The mountain:  wow.  Every interaction with employees was VERY positive....like it always was.


That has been a HUGE difference this year.  It's really nice to see. 




thetrailboss said:


> The pub looked VERY classy and had a great view.


IMHO, this is one of the few areas where they had a huge swing and a miss.  The bar is quite large, and sits smack dab in the middle of the view with no windows behind it.  If they put the bar on the other side of the room, you would have had a gigantic picture window overlooking Willoughby Gap.  It would have been one of the nicest views in the whole area.  Now you get peaks of the gap, but not a panoramic view.





thetrailboss said:


> The pool is small and nice.  Only open "when it was above 20 degrees" or so apparently.


This is the one other area that they goofed on.  The pool is too small for the hotel.  And if you are going to have it open in the winter, you need to have it _reliably_ open in the winter.  But the biggest problem is that, knowing that the pool was going to be open in the winter, they left a LOOOONG outside route from the hotel to get into and out of the pool.  It's a complete architectural fail.





thetrailboss said:


> I was very disappointed to hear that despite the overall positive season, and a good but slow start for the Hotel, that at least one or two local hotel owners had complained that they felt that the Hotel was "undercutting" their business and that the Mountain was unfairly stealing business.


  How odd.  These people held themselves out to be "Friends of Burke Mountain."  The reality is that the ski area needed the hotel.  What's killing the off-site lodging establishments is that tickets are included in hotel packages.  When a family of four can stay and ski for $199 per night, the off-site lodging establishments just can't compete.  This REALLY hurt people in March when the crowds started to thin out.  During peak holiday times, when the same hotel package was pushing $500, the off-site lodging held its own.  





thetrailboss said:


> In my mind someone who stays at the Hotel is NOT a customer that would want an intimate B&B experience and vice-a-versa.


  If occupancy is down there was clearly some overlap.  





thetrailboss said:


> Also surprising to me and others were multiple reports that Bill Stenger STILL routinely comes to the mountain, shows people around, has "high level meetings" in his "consultant role", drives a company vehicle, and has a presence.


That's definitely ruffled some feathers, from what I hear.  But looking at the big picture, what matters the most is that the mountain is doing well.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> How odd.  These people held themselves out to be "Friends of Burke Mountain."  The reality is that the ski area needed the hotel.  What's killing the off-site lodging establishments is that tickets are included in hotel packages.  When a family of four can stay and ski for $199 per night, the off-site lodging establishments just can't compete.  This REALLY hurt people in March when the crowds started to thin out.  During peak holiday times, when the same hotel package was pushing $500, the off-site lodging held its own.



This is not an FOBM position, although I understand that one person who raised the issue is directly involved with FOBM.  That is problematic.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

Part II of the Cal Rec special on the EB-5 incident:

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_ef0155ef-0573-547d-87b8-0db406f27c8d.html


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> *The receiver is getting very good reviews and he gets a lot of points for genuinely working with the locals *and being responsive.



What sort of strange & innovative Six Sigma sorcery is this?


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.
> 
> ...
> 
> So all in all much better than I expected. Great to see my mountain holding its own.



Excellent writeup and analysis.

So this seems like one of the best possible seasons.  Any idea if the mountain is profitable and/or sustainable for the future?   Was enough business generated?   How were skier visits?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Excellent writeup and analysis.
> 
> So this seems like one of the best possible seasons.  Any idea if the mountain is profitable and/or sustainable for the future?   Was enough business generated?   How were skier visits?



I only heard in general terms that locals felt/heard that the mountain had a "good" season; the Hotel was slow.  I don't know if we will get any more specifics than this. 

Jay apparently has turned a $2 mill profit so far according to VT Digger.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Excellent writeup and analysis.
> 
> So this seems like one of the best possible seasons.  Any idea if the mountain is profitable and/or sustainable for the future?   Was enough business generated?   How were skier visits?


The receiver was very happy to talk about Jay's profit, but has been silent regarding Burke.  Draw your own conclusions.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I only heard in general terms that locals felt/heard that the mountain had a "good" season; the Hotel was slow.  I don't know if we will get any more specifics than this.
> 
> Jay apparently has turned a $2 mill profit so far according to VT Digger.



I doubt anyone expected a 100% turnaround, but they are on the right track.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

I posted this in the Jay thread, but word on the street is that Burke lost money this year, but the loss was not as bad as they were braced for.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

Has Burke ever had positive net operating seasons?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Has Burke ever had positive net operating seasons?


Not that I am aware of.  But they also never had a hotel at the base.


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## Smellytele (Apr 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Not that I am aware of.  But they also never had a hotel at the base.



...that will be in the red every year as well.
You needed to finish the sentence


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 12, 2017)

I would refer to this statement from Goldberg as sort of indicating where I thought Stenger's involvement lay."“I’ve seen a lot of documents behind the scenes that are not public … Quiros intentionally kept Stenger out of the finances and out of discussing certain facts that would have uncovered what was going on,” said Goldberg. “To some extent, he was duped. That doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything wrong. He was naive, negligent and in some cases even reckless, but there is a big difference between doing something you shouldn’t be doing and being a little reckless versus something that is much more sinister.”


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

So we're back to the, _"Bill Stenger is a complete and total moron" _hypothesis?

I'm sorry, but nobody is that stupid. 

 I'm not a lawyer, but choosing to intentionally look the other way because you are directly benefiting financially from someone else's crime cant be legal.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

Bill is cooperating.   The receiver said what he said with that in mind.  Don't read more into it.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Bill is cooperating.



Well isn't that nice.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Has Burke ever had positive net operating seasons?



Yes.  

Most recent that I know was in 2000-2001.  Broke even a couple years thereafter.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes.
> 
> *Most recent that I know was in 2000-2001. * Broke even a couple years thereafter.



I think that was the best snow year ever IIRC?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think that was the best snow year ever IIRC?



Yep.  And the first year under the control of an entity indirectly controlled by BMA.  It also was the first year when the community was told to invest, visit, buy passes, etc. or see it go under.


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## MG Skier (Apr 12, 2017)

At least they had a good snow year. I didn't get there but every time I checked conditions it looked like most of the terrain was open.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

...and maybe I am wrong, but at least in my mind 2007-2008 was an AWESOME snow year.  I skied things at Burke I had never skied before.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Shots from the Hotel:
> ...



No shots of the decor in the coffee shop ehh?


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## EPB (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> ...and maybe I am wrong, but at least in my mind 2007-2008 was an AWESOME snow year.  I skied things at Burke I had never skied before.


 I'd believe it. Had 4 feet of snowpack at ~900 feet of elevation in Bartlett, NH that year. It was the best season of my life in the MWV.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2017)

Glad to see that Burke made it this weekend. 


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## oldtimer (Apr 17, 2017)

Burke skied extremely well this weekend-  anything with snowmaking was great and parts of the East side were in play.  East bowl was open and very skiiable both days, Powerderhorn, Sasquatch and Wilderness all were incredible on Saturday (mind you, incredible for April 15th).

Now, was it a good idea to open?  probably not.  I enjoyed skiing with freinds and family, but there were not many of us.  From the looks, I would be surprised if they sold 25 day tickets on Saturday and 10 on Sunday.

THANK YOU BURKE-    what a fabulous winter.


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## slatham (Apr 17, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> Burke skied extremely well this weekend-  anything with snowmaking was great and parts of the East side were in play.  East bowl was open and very skiiable both days, Powerderhorn, Sasquatch and Wilderness all were incredible on Saturday (mind you, incredible for April 15th).
> 
> Now, was it a good idea to open?  probably not.  I enjoyed skiing with freinds and family, but there were not many of us.  From the looks, I would be surprised if they sold 25 day tickets on Saturday and 10 on Sunday.
> 
> THANK YOU BURKE-    what a fabulous winter.



This time of year it's more about advertising and getting people to buy season passes. Good to see them have a good year with all the news and uncertainty.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

Back in the NEK for a funeral unfortunately.  The conversation of the weekend was the Rasputista race and how it has become a big deal.  What started as maybe 300 people has turned into a race that is capped at 1,000.  And they filled all the slots.  Town was abuzz.  Went to the hotel this morning to get some goodies at the store and they said that they were FULL this weekend.  Very good.  Publick House was packed last night for dinner.  Food for us, unfortunately, missed the mark.  Not sure if it was a different chef or something else, but both my wife and I had meals that were not up to their usual par.  

Lots of bikers in town and lots of out-of-state plates.  For what is normally a dead weekend it was busy.  That is welcome.  


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

The other big news is that Stenger is heading up the T-Bar/snowmaking project.

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=561

https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/P... Documents/001-Cover Letter Act 250 Burke.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

Poma proposal:

https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/P... Documents/008-Leitner Poma lift proposal.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

Proposed project map...snowmaking line to go up along Upper Doug's.  Doesn't look like they will add an air line.  Perhaps they will use fan guns (?) or perhaps it is just to pump water to the Dippers:

https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/P...ke Map with proposed tbar for DRB meeting.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2017)

File:  https://anrweb.vt.gov/ANR/vtANR/Act250SearchResults.aspx?Num=7C0206-17


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 24, 2017)

Nice digging on the new T-bar.
The new lift will pretty much be a widening of the Mid-Burke Express lift line cut (aka Re-Run) by 10-50'. My concern is that by doing this, the Mid-Burke Express might be opened up to more wind, especially at the top half of Upper Warrens Way.

Showing a roughly 20 ft wide clearance (my guess at a minimum width):


Edit to add that skiing the cross-over between Warrens Way and McHargs is going to be more dangerous. In the current setup you can easy see the uphill Poma riders and pass between them with no problem. However, the new T-bar is going to be on the other side of the trees which means cross traffic may have to stop and look before proceeding.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2017)

Or do they close that cross over?  I thought I have read with new surface lift installations you can't have crossing trails.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 24, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Or do they close that cross over?  I thought I have read with new surface lift installations you can't have crossing trails.



That would kind of suck on days that they are only using Lower Warrens for race training. It would force everyone down Lower Foxes Folly which results in a long flat traverse back to the MBE.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2017)

Might differ from state to state.  Now that I recall, it was regarding a new T Bar for a race training at Sunday River on Monday Morning.  The installation of the lift is resulting in the closing of the Over Easy cross over trail.


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## Jully (Apr 24, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Might differ from state to state.  Now that I recall, it was regarding a new T Bar for a race training at Sunday River on Monday Morning.  The installation of the lift is resulting in the closing of the Over Easy cross over trail.



I know it is not allowed in ME on new lifts. In addition to potentially being state by state, maybe the crossing is 'grandfathered' in by the old poma being there?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Nice digging on the new T-bar.
> The new lift will pretty much be a widening of the Mid-Burke Express lift line cut (aka Re-Run) by 10-50'. My concern is that by doing this, the Mid-Burke Express might be opened up to more wind, especially at the top half of Upper Warrens Way.
> 
> Showing a roughly 20 ft wide clearance (my guess at a minimum width):
> ...



I worry about the wind as well. 


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> The other big news is that Stenger is heading up the T-Bar/snowmaking project.



Hopefully he doesn't have to approve financial transactions.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hopefully he doesn't have to approve financial transactions.



Apparently credibility is overrated. 


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2017)

Just as I had suspected:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/26/quiros-takes-new-approach-eb-5-case-cooperate/


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Just as I had suspected:
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/26/quiros-takes-new-approach-eb-5-case-cooperate/



He is now realizing that the writing is on the wall...perhaps.  I imagine though that he is too proud to admit that he is a common crook.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2017)

That moment when you accept the fact that the Mount Everest of evidence piled against you is so indisputable, that even Johnnie Cochran's ghost couldn't get you off.


----------



## machski (Apr 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> I know it is not allowed in ME on new lifts. In addition to potentially being state by state, maybe the crossing is 'grandfathered' in by the old poma being there?


Should not be.  This is a totally new install, falls under current ANSI codes.  That cross trail should be permanently closed per those codes.  Of they wanted the grandfather provision, they would have had to keep the Poma and refurb it if needed.

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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2017)

The Vermont EB-5 Center is now on life support: https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/27/senate-zeroes-vermont-eb-5-regional-center-budget/


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2017)

Bill "provides tremendous value" to Jay and Burke but should NOT have signed the Act 250 permit application according to Goldberg. 

https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/01/ste...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-258a08ef65-405558657


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## BenedictGomez (May 3, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The *Vermont EB-5 Center is now on life support*: https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/27/senate-zeroes-vermont-eb-5-regional-center-budget/



Gosh, if it was the _"safest EB-5 program in America" _because it was the _"only one that's government run"_, imagine how unsafe it will be now!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2017)

Kushner family in Beijing: 'Invest $500,000 and immigrate' to US
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2017)

Permit granted for T-Bar project:  https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/Planning/7C0206-17/District Comission Documents/Permit and COS.pdf

And just for BG:  



> In order to protect Bicknell’s Thrush (BITH) habitat, no clearing or construction may
> occur between May 15 and August 1, in the portions of the project located above
> elevation 2,500 feet. Permittees shall measure and mitigate the (potential) BITH
> habitat as identified in the application. Permittees shall submit a mitigation map to
> ...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 2, 2017)




----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Kushner family in Beijing: 'Invest $500,000 and immigrate' to US
> http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


He certainly knows how to work the system

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...a_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.cf3008db50dc

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## VTKilarney (Jun 10, 2017)

Yet another Vermont EB-5 project goes bust.  

https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/09/country-home-products-lays-off-60/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Yet another Vermont EB-5 project goes bust.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/09/country-home-products-lays-off-60/



Well....completely different circumstances it appears.


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## benski (Jun 10, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Yet another Vermont EB-5 project goes bust.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/09/country-home-products-lays-off-60/



Company not succeeding is the part of the risk of the inherent risk investing. Has nothing to do with Jay's problem.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 10, 2017)

> Country Home Products was *once considered a “troubled company,”* but *started growing again in 2012, when then-Gov. Peter Shumlin and U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy announced that the company would receive EB-5 funding.*



 Unbelievable.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2017)

benski said:


> Company not succeeding is the part of the risk of the inherent risk investing. Has nothing to do with Jay's problem.



Never said that it did.  I was just pointing out that the EB-5 itself hasn't created the jobs in Vermont that were promised.  Some of us Vermonters actually care about jobs.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Never said that it did.  I was just pointing out that the EB-5 itself hasn't created the jobs in Vermont that were promised.  Some of us Vermonters actually care about jobs.



Don't you think Sugarbush is a good example of this working?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Don't you think Sugarbush is a good example of this working?


I don't think that a single Vermont EB-5 project has created the jobs that were promised.  So Sugarbush is good in the sense that it was a project that didn't go  belly up - but bad in the sense that job creation is lacking.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't think that a single Vermont EB-5 project has created the jobs that were promised.  So Sugarbush is good in the sense that it was a project that didn't go  belly up - but bad in the sense that job creation is lacking.



But the method used by Sugarbush didn't require any job creation, only job retention. And the fact that there are more jobs a sugarbush now, compared to back when they used EB-5 funding, seem to me to be icing on the cake.


----------



## machski (Jun 11, 2017)

EB-5 job creation math has always been very fuzzy.  A government program with fuzzy math, say it isn't so.  Still, the example here is jobs were created and unfortunately the market didn't support their continued existence​.  Risk any investor takes on.

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## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> But the method used by Sugarbush didn't require any job creation, only job retention. And the fact that there are more jobs a sugarbush now, compared to back when they used EB-5 funding, seem to me to be icing on the cake.



Interesting.  I was not aware of the details of the Sugarbush project.  But would these jobs have really gone away?  One has to wonder.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2017)

machski said:


> EB-5 job creation math has always been very fuzzy.  A government program with fuzzy math, say it isn't so.  Still, the example here is jobs were created and unfortunately the market didn't support their continued existence​.  Risk any investor takes on.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I'm fine with the investor taking on risk. But that ignores that the government is handing out green cards and also taking on risk - that the jobs will really be created for more than a short period of time.  In this case, the investors got what they wanted and the government didn't.  

It's a deeply flawed program.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Never said that it did.  I was just pointing out that the EB-5 itself hasn't created the jobs in Vermont that were promised.  Some of us Vermonters actually care about jobs.



That is a legitimate point


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> But the method used by Sugarbush didn't require any job creation, only job retention. And the fact that there are more jobs a sugarbush now, compared to back when they used EB-5 funding, seem to me to be icing on the cake.



Right. They did the troubled company model.


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## cdskier (Jun 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting.  I was not aware of the details of the Sugarbush project.  But would these jobs have really gone away?  One has to wonder.



Yea, Sugarbush used the "if we don't do this project we'll lose jobs" method. Of course how you can prove something that didn't happen is always the fun part. There simply is no way to ever know for sure what would have happened if they didn't get the money.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Interesting.  I was not aware of the details of the Sugarbush project. * But would these jobs have really gone away?  One has to wonder.*



That's the trendy,new, and bogus, "_jobs created_ *or **saved*" metric, heretofore unknown to the world of economics prior to about 2000 or so, and popularized by The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) .   It's a total joke, and there is no better statistic to provide an example of, "fuzzy math" with.  Economists don't take it seriously (unless they're the ones on the payroll trying to sell something).


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## thetrailboss (Jun 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yea, Sugarbush used the "if we don't do this project we'll lose jobs" method. Of course how you can prove something that didn't happen is always the fun part. There simply is no way to ever know for sure what would have happened if they didn't get the money.



Exactly.  Win said that the resort was having financial issues and that without the financing for the work that jobs would be lost.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Jun 12, 2017)

What happens to these regions if the businesses fail?   The ski areas and tourism are huge economic drivers.


----------



## dlague (Jun 12, 2017)

They go bankrupt like Burke did in 1990 and in 1999.

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 12, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> *What happens to these regions if the businesses fail?*   The ski areas and tourism are huge economic drivers.



Contrary to the claims of those pushing these programs, everyone doesn't die in the streets, and children don't go skeletal starving.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2017)

Bump.  

Got some information recently about Burke's plans for this summer.  There is $2 million in improvements coming.  The first, and obvious, is the new T-Bar.  It will have a mid-unload near the current Poma location.  The line will require some tree removal.  The capacity is going from 250 riders per hour to 1,000 per hour.  Leitner-Poma is doing the work.  And yes it is a new, NEW lift.  

Besides that, there will be blasting for the new lift AND on the Warren's Way.  The upper portion is set to be re-engineered and regraded.  Some of the double fall lines, particularly on skier's left, will be gone.  

McHarg's Cutoff will see new snowmaking on it to allow the racers and general public to use it from the mid-unload.  

An on-mountain compressor will have its cooling system repaired.  Q let it go bad resulting in putting 140 F air into the system which does not make for good snow.  

More fan guns and new tower guns coming.  

Water pumping capacity for the upper mountain is increasing by 200% or something like that.  

They are once again pushing for a very aggressive opening to show off the new lift.   Weather permitting, they want to blow snow in October to have the training hill going in early November.  Then it will be Dippers--all the way--before Willoughby.  The snowmaking improvements will make opening easier.  

And yes, Bill Stenger is acting as a "consultant" in the day-to-day operations of both Jay and Burke.  

Stay tuned for other announcements and plans.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 30, 2017)

Very nice. Slow but good steady progress and improvements every year without going completely overboard. I'm sure the new "US Ski Team Development Site" status will help bring in more funds. 

Now with a a year under the belts of the Receivership, it should be interesting to see how well the Hotel does this winter, and the overall success of the mountain. Weather permitting of course.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 30, 2017)

No word on lower mountain lighting for the Terrain Park and perhaps a ski trail off Sherburne quad?


----------



## mbedle (Jul 17, 2017)

From a recent receivership report: The Receiver reached an agreement with Burke Mountain Academy ("BMA"), the leading ski racing academy which operates on Burke Mountain to reduce by $1 million, the $3 million loan owed to BMA, in exchange for expanding the Easement granted to BMA for its students and staff to continue to train on Burke Mountain. By expanding the Easement, BMA will enlarge its ski program on its allotted trails through increased student enrollment and other means including permitting it to host additional races and guest training, resulting in additional needs for the services provided by the Burke Mountain Hotel.

In connection with their plans to expand racing and ski race training on Burke Mountain, the Receiver and BMA have also entered into an operating agreement with respect to sharing certain revenue and expenses related to ski racing, the use of training lanes and other hotel amenities by third parties brought to the hotel by BMA.

The Receiver and BMA have agreed to replace the 62 year old “Poma” ski lift. BMA’s supporting organization, Burke Racing Inc. (“BRI”) has agreed to purchase and install the ski lift and lease the lift back to the Burke Entities for $1 million in total (which the Receiver intends to prepay from proceeds of the RJ Settlement. This new lift will vastly improve Burke Mountain’s skiing capacity, improve the skiing product and at the same time should increase the demand for hotel rooms thereby making the Burke Hotel more valuable.

Wonder how much that will effect operations at the resort (trails closed, snow making dedication to racing trails)?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2017)

mbedle said:


> From a recent receivership report: The Receiver reached an agreement with Burke Mountain Academy ("BMA"), the leading ski racing academy which operates on Burke Mountain to reduce by $1 million, the $3 million loan owed to BMA, in exchange for expanding the Easement granted to BMA for its students and staff to continue to train on Burke Mountain. By expanding the Easement, BMA will enlarge its ski program on its allotted trails through increased student enrollment and other means including permitting it to host additional races and guest training, resulting in additional needs for the services provided by the Burke Mountain Hotel.
> 
> In connection with their plans to expand racing and ski race training on Burke Mountain, the Receiver and BMA have also entered into an operating agreement with respect to sharing certain revenue and expenses related to ski racing, the use of training lanes and other hotel amenities by third parties brought to the hotel by BMA.
> 
> ...



See my post above. Can't recall what the upshot was regarding Trail use. 


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## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2017)

The lifeline is cut; grading on WW done too. 


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## Happy2day (Jul 24, 2017)

I hope everything gets sorted out really would like to enjoy this trip.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 25, 2017)

[h=2]*[FONT=&quot]Save 25% on 3 nights[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][/FONT][/h]  [h=2]*[FONT=&quot]Save 35% on 4 nights[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot] or more [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
*in the Burke Mountain Hotel & Conference Center!*[/FONT][/h]  [h=2]*[FONT=&quot]Must book by Friday, August 18th [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
*to receive the discount on your ski & stay package.*

*Offer valid during the period of Dec. 24th through Dec. 31st, 2017*[/FONT][/h]  [FONT=&quot]*Click here for complete details and to book!*[/FONT]


----------



## crank (Jul 25, 2017)

We stayed there last December 27 - 29 for a heck of a lot less!  Will wait and see.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 26, 2017)

Snowmaking at Burke makes a Christmas trip a gamble.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Snowmaking at Burke makes a Christmas trip a gamble.



Well.....they are making some big improvements this year on snowmaking.  The weather is what makes or breaks things.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 26, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> The weather is what makes or breaks things.



Very true for Burke.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Very true for Burke.



And also the limited pockets.  They don't have any money to waste.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 26, 2017)

14 million in the bank account as of May 1st.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2017)

Official info on the T-Bar Project:  

https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/06/new-1-5m-lift-part-deal-burke-resort-academy/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Official info on the T-Bar Project:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/06/new-1-5m-lift-part-deal-burke-resort-academy/



Seems like everyone is happy with the agreements for the most part. They posted on FB today too about the snowmaking pipe arriving.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2017)

Another article.  

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_732e98bb-b220-52cd-bf29-e2387825d303.html


----------



## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

Was reading a letter posted by the receivership proposing that PhaseVII investors may elect to have their 500K investment escrowed and possibly invested in a new development project. Any guesses on what new development project they may be thinking of for either Burke or Jay Peak? It was my understanding that the Raymond James settlement covered finishing all the other phases.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Was reading a letter posted by the receivership proposing that PhaseVII investors may elect to have their 500K investment escrowed and possibly invested in a new development project. Any guesses on what new development project they may be thinking of for either Burke or Jay Peak? It was my understanding that the Raymond James settlement covered finishing all the other phases.



That's news to me.  Jay I would imagine.  Don't they still have plans for more houses up there?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That's news to me.  Jay I would imagine.  Don't they still have plans for more houses up there?



The cottages are being finished, but that is being funded by the RJ settlement. They revised one of the offering to get rid of the medical center and something else (I think they just went with sports fields). Will be interesting to see what they are planning. Maybe a complete snowmaking upgrade for Burke?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2017)

mbedle said:


> The cottages are being finished, but that is being funded by the RJ settlement. They revised one of the offering to get rid of the medical center and something else (I think they just went with sports fields). Will be interesting to see what they are planning. Maybe a complete snowmaking upgrade for Burke?



Significant snowmaking upgrades continue at Burke.  Fixing an air compressor, adding more fan guns, adding more water pumping capacity, and adding snowmaking pipe on McHarg's Cutoff AND Upper Doug's.  The latter is a relatively easy job since in 1998 or 1999 Northern Star had anticipated such work and put joints/sockets into the Toll Road Line to allow the new section to be simply plumbed in.  

Snowmaking is not a good EB-5 project though.  But interesting how the Receiver "gets it" as to how to make Burke better.  Word has it that Stenger is the one who is advising.


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## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

I don't think it is word that Stenger is advising, its been stated by the receiver that he is still used by the receivership when needed. Which I think is a really good thing for both of these resorts.


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## Jully (Aug 8, 2017)

mbedle said:


> The cottages are being finished, but that is being funded by the RJ settlement. They revised one of the offering to get rid of the medical center and something else (I think they just went with sports fields). Will be interesting to see what they are planning. Maybe a complete snowmaking upgrade for Burke?



Did they opt to eliminate building the medical center?


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Snowmaking is not a good EB-5 project though.



Isn't Mount Snow using eb-5 for snowmaking?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

Yes, but they also have the Carinthia base lodge as part of the project.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> Did they opt to eliminate building the medical center?



Yes, it was decided that the medical center did not add enough to the project as far as job creations.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Isn't Mount Snow using eb-5 for snowmaking?





mbedle said:


> Yes, but they also have the Carinthia base lodge as part of the project.



Exactly.  The same project.  Anyone know if they argued that the snowmaking was needed to "preserve" the jobs instead of "create" new jobs?  That might be a way to make a snowmaking project work.


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## mbedle (Aug 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  The same project.  Anyone know if they argued that the snowmaking was needed to "preserve" the jobs instead of "create" new jobs?  That might be a way to make a snowmaking project work.



I think the preserve jobs only can be applied to businesses in trouble.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I think the preserve jobs only can be applied to businesses in trouble.



Sure.  I could see Mount Snow/Peaks saying that it is "a business in trouble" WITHOUT snowmaking due to global warming, etc.  

Enough guessing aside.  Can anyone dig up the Mount Snow application that sets forth their reasoning?


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## mbedle (Aug 9, 2017)

https://www.scribd.com/document/245543612/Mount-Snow-PPM

Was not offered under the troubled business, but is located in a TEA and as such can use the indirect jobs method for job creation. What I found interesting is that Mount Snow will be leasing the west lake for $10 per year and paying $5,000 per 1 million gallons used for snowmaking.

I also read that Mount Snow will not be using the Vermont Regional Center for Phase II of their EDB-5 offering.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

No surprise at all.

https://m.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessag...-shutter-vermonts-scandal-plagued-eb-5-center


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/21/scott-feds-closing-states-eb-5-regional-center/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 12, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Nice digging on the new T-bar.
> The new lift will pretty much be a widening of the Mid-Burke Express lift line cut (aka Re-Run) by 10-50'. My concern is that by doing this, the Mid-Burke Express might be opened up to more wind, especially at the top half of Upper Warrens Way.
> 
> Showing a roughly 20 ft wide clearance (my guess at a minimum width):
> ...



Was hoping you'd be keeping us updated with a steady flow of pictures!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2017)

Your wish is my command.  From Burke Mountain's FB Page:


----------



## Glenn (Sep 14, 2017)

Not many of those old Pomas left. I rode that lift years ago. Even went up a few times on a snowboard.


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## drjeff (Sep 14, 2017)

It was a bit surreal last March when I was up at Burke where my daughter was racing riding the poma, knowing that it was in its last days of service and that one of the true legendary lifts that has helped produced so many Olympians was just about done with it's service...


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 7, 2017)

Looks like quite a bit of blasting and grading completed up top.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 26, 2017)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155878640433023


----------



## slatham (Oct 26, 2017)

Great video thanks for posting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2018)

Is that you, Ary?!




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## VTKilarney (Apr 2, 2018)

His father seems happy:






https://centerfororthopedicinnovation.com/your-health/video/ariel-quiros-patient-testimonial


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2018)

More courtroom drama.  

https://vtdigger.org/2018/04/05/vermont-judge-freezes-quiros-assets-in-eb-5-case/


----------



## NYDB (Aug 21, 2018)

So how long does VT run this losing 2 mil a year if no buyer materializes?


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 21, 2018)

NY DirtBag said:


> So how long does VT run this losing 2 mil a year if no buyer materializes?



Isn't it the federal government's receiver?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Isn't it the federal government's receiver?



Yes


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2018)

Very interesting news.  This would be a major boon for Burke Mountain if it had a boost to its snowmaking.  

Also very good to hear that the Hotel has seen an upturn in business.  Apparently this summer it began hitting its benchmarks.  Again, when I visited in July it was packed.  

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_d53fc10b-f733-51db-b2ea-43b45a3fafd1.html


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## JoeB-Z (Sep 3, 2018)

I hope they have better luck with the snowmaking improvements than Magic. It is *shameful* that the state has dragged out the permits through TWO construction seasons. And that is with Magic hiring good engineers and shooting for compliance at every step as far as I can see.


https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_d53fc10b-f733-51db-b2ea-43b45a3fafd1.html[/QUOTE]


----------



## tumbler (Sep 4, 2018)

JoeB-Z said:


> I hope they have better luck with the snowmaking improvements than Magic. It is *shameful* that the state has dragged out the permits through TWO construction seasons. And that is with Magic hiring good engineers and shooting for compliance at every step as far as I can see.
> 
> 
> https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_d53fc10b-f733-51db-b2ea-43b45a3fafd1.html


[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the state of Vermont.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 4, 2018)

You've got to line the right pockets...


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2018)

Bump.  

Burke reports 100,000 visitors annually for the Hotel.  Also, they want to build a bigger snowmaking pond alongside Route 114 to help fuel the snowmaking system.  The applicable local review board said yes.  

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...MfPd6yjYWPkt2O_gnOCuEmOpwSO7WhZi37ecJ_BKYD2XA


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2018)

That article does not say that the hotel had 100,000 visitors.  It says that the hotel helped the RESORT achieve 100,000 visitors, which presumably includes skiers and bikers.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2018)

Got an Email from Burke saying that they might open this week.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 18, 2018)

Repairs and upgrades must be helping, along with the good early temps and snow.



> *Burke Mountain*: The summer at Burke was busy with  upgrades to the existing snowmaking infrastructure including a new  booster pump at the summit. The new addition will double our summit  capacity giving us the opportunity to cover more terrain faster. Air and  water pipes have also been repaired and replaced on our lower mountain  ski trail, Bunker Hill. Snowmaking controls are being upgraded so  snowmakers have a more user-friendly and accurate system that gets more  snow on the hill faster.



https://unofficialnetworks.com/2018/10/05/here-are-all-the-new-developments-for-vermont-ski-areas/


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## jbsechl (Nov 21, 2018)

Shameless plug just to help get the word further....we (Burke Mountain) announced a first chair famous promotion on facebook yesterday. First four on the mid burke chair each win a night at the hotel.  Hopefully we see you all there.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2018)

jbsechl said:


> Shameless plug just to help get the word further....we (Burke Mountain) announced a first chair famous promotion on facebook yesterday. First four on the mid burke chair each win a night at the hotel.  Hopefully we see you all there.



You beat me to it.  Very cool promotion.  Very cool to see Burke go early.

And welcome to the forum.


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## Killingtime (Nov 21, 2018)

jbsechl said:


> Shameless plug just to help get the word further....we (Burke Mountain) announced a first chair famous promotion on facebook yesterday. First four on the mid burke chair each win a night at the hotel.  Hopefully we see you all there.



Always good to see creative promotions. Burke will need to think outside the box to thrive. So glad that dopey Q is gone from the name. Now if it could just find the right ownership...


----------



## mbedle (Nov 21, 2018)

That is a really great promotion.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 21, 2018)

And if you don't make first chair...



> *Ski/ride & stay with us starting Thanksgiving through saturday, december 15th from $99/night*
> 
> BOOK NOW
> 
> ...




https://skiburke.com/deals/opening-weekend/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 21, 2018)

I'm thinking mid-week from the 10th - 15th is gonna be a great time to snap up this deal! ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2018)

https://m.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/a...urke-and-jay-on-the-menu/Content?oid=23120678


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## VTKilarney (Nov 24, 2018)

From the article:
_The situation is not as rosy at Burke Mountain, he wrote. Revenue for the last ski season was less than anticipated, and skier visits were down 6 percent. The ski area hotel that opened to much excitement in 2016 lost money during the 2017-18 skiing season, though bookings were up over this past summer._


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 24, 2018)

Who went for opening day? How was the turnout?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 26, 2018)

More Burke news.  

https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/25/burke-snowmaking-boost-hinges-processing-investors-green-cards/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 26, 2018)

60 more job openings on top of the number of employees they already have, seems a little ambitious. Even if they added a big snowmaking crew of 30-45 people, where do you come up with the other jobs?


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## Smellytele (Nov 26, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> 60 more job openings on top of the number of employees they already have, seems a little ambitious. Even if they added a big snowmaking crew of 30-45 people, where do you come up with the other jobs?



It used to be they didn't need direct jobs but could show indirect jobs such as jobs at local businesses that had been added.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 26, 2018)

Oh, right, yeah. Forgot about that angle, as well as making it possible to maintain a certain level of existing jobs as well.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Oh, right, yeah. Forgot about *that angle*, as well as making it possible to maintain a certain level of existing jobs as well.




That's a polite way to put it.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 26, 2018)

:grin:


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2019)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/R...sions-at-Burke-Mountain-Resort-503852091.html


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2019)

so they want a developer to build vacation homes on these lots? Or they don't care what is done with them they just wat to sell of land?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> so they want a developer to build vacation homes on these lots? Or they don't care what is done with them they just wat to sell of land?



The latter I believe.  Sounds like they are looking for some quick cash.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2019)

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...TaoBNB_ByQ9N5BO0mfOyR7kP6Lo8XrDAgtTXdu9cwKSLc


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2019)

http://burkemtnacademy.org/don-grah...R3I-Wa-p2dk6f4yV8ysCkeEl4OePGTxMeg9RVh4Qbp1yQ


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 3, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> http://burkemtnacademy.org/don-grah...R3I-Wa-p2dk6f4yV8ysCkeEl4OePGTxMeg9RVh4Qbp1yQ



Very nice!


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## Zand (Feb 5, 2019)

At Burke for the first time since they opened the hotel and I've never seen something that feels more out of place. Disappointed in ski operations too...glades are still full of snow and all closed but trails like Warren's Way are full of ice sheets and random bare spots and open. Looking at snow reports Burke feels pretty lonely in the North country having its glades closed.


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## cdskier (Feb 5, 2019)

Zand said:


> At Burke for the first time since they opened the hotel and I've never seen something that feels more out of place. Disappointed in ski operations too...glades are still full of snow and all closed but trails like Warren's Way are full of ice sheets and random bare spots and open. Looking at snow reports Burke feels pretty lonely in the North country having its glades closed.



While glades are never officially open or closed at Sugarbush, they did close pretty much all their natural terrain today to help preserve it.  Stowe also has a number of their official on-map glades closed on the report today. So Burke isn't really alone in this decision...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2019)

Zand said:


> At Burke for the first time since they opened the hotel and I've never seen something that feels more out of place. Disappointed in ski operations too...glades are still full of snow and all closed but trails like Warren's Way are full of ice sheets and random bare spots and open. Looking at snow reports Burke feels pretty lonely in the North country having its glades closed.



Well, do you really want to ski the glades on a day like today?


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## Zand (Feb 5, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, do you really want to ski the glades on a day like today?



I did. The natural stuff was soft and skiing a lot better than the groomed stuff. Dipped into the woods a little bit where there weren't ropes and they were soft...maybe a little too soft where traffic was light. Carriage Road, Powderhorn, and East Bowl were nice and creamy.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 13, 2019)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/...7-v7ohwVYFZ_NkhbWUvY44BZK5FHo803Z-p5CuuM7-fPY


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## thetrailboss (Feb 25, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/02/24/bur...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-266a79da4e-405558657


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/04/08/shumlin-court-filing-rebuts-dirty-hands-claim-jay-peak-case/


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## tumbler (Apr 10, 2019)

Q Burke.  Almost forgot about that.  Haha.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 10, 2019)

tumbler said:


> *Q Burke.*  Almost forgot about that.  Haha.



I owned several permutations of the website domain for a while.

The geniuses in charge announced they renamed the place before acquiring them.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 10, 2019)

> Russell Barr, Stowe attorney for a group of EB-5 investors is pressing on in his bid to grill top state officials—including Shumlin—about their lack of oversight of the state-run EB-5 regional center. But, *the state is still blocking him*.



Life sure is sweet when you own all the rifles & bayonets.


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## thetrailboss (May 7, 2019)

Well, the first deal fell through because of concerns about Act 250.  

https://vtdigger.org/2019/05/05/burke-mountain-land-deal-nixed-act-250-concerns/

Looks like another one stepped up to buy the land.


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## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, *the first deal fell through because of concerns about Act 250.  *



It's almost as if someone wouldn't want to spend several hundred thousand dollars only to have their plan crushed last minute by some willy-nilly, capricious, inconsistently-applied whim by State of Vermont.


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## thetrailboss (May 9, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's almost as if someone wouldn't want to spend several hundred thousand dollars only to have their plan crushed last minute by some willy-nilly, capricious, inconsistently-applied whim by State of Vermont.



And it makes the Receiver's work much harder.  While he did find another buyer, they lost a significant amount of cash because the new buyer offered less money.  So the investors, who believed State officials in believing that this whole thing was an "audited" program get screwed again.


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## from_the_NEK (May 21, 2019)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Charges-Coming-in-Kingdom-Con-510222141.html


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## JoeB-Z (May 21, 2019)

ANC-Bio was the most preposterous part of the scam. It makes sense that this is where a further indictment is focused. 

https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/27/anc-bio-vermont-troubles-began-south-korea/


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## halfpintvt (May 21, 2019)

Link to Jay Peak Receivers 6th Interim Report to the Court.
https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RECEIVERS-SIXTH-INTERIM-REPORT.pdf


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## BenedictGomez (May 21, 2019)

*AND THUS MY PROPHECY HAS COME COMPLETE!!!!!!!!!!!*



> WCAX News has confirmed *federal charges will happen* Wednesday in Vermont's largest fraud scandal ever.



This was heretofore the ONLY bit that I predicted years ago, which had not yet happened.


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## thetrailboss (May 21, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> *AND THUS MY PROPHECY HAS COME COMPLETE!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> This was heretofore the ONLY bit that I predicted years ago, which had not yet happened.



Well, let’s see who is charged and with what. 


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2019)

No surprise.  Three out of four will probably get off by testifying against Q.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/05/22/fed...pers/?is_wppwa=true&wpappninja_cache=friendly


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/05/22/federal-grand-jury-indicts-jay-peak-developers/


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## BenedictGomez (May 22, 2019)

I literally LOL at this sentence:



> All four defendants are charged with *concealing the truth about AnC Bio*



As I wrote years ago, this to me is like someone "concealing" that water is wet.


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## BenedictGomez (May 22, 2019)

> The four defendants are also accused of *falsifying job numbers for the EB-5 projects.* Each investment of $500,000 was to generate 10 direct or indirect jobs. Federal prosecutors say Stenger, Quiros, Kelly and Choi *“created deceptions about both construction jobs and operational jobs.”*



Ya dont say?


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## halfpintvt (May 22, 2019)

Copy of new Indictment against Ariel Quiros et al.


https://jaypeakreceivership.com/…/up…/2019/05/Indictment.pdf


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## MG Skier (May 22, 2019)

Wow, the story continues......what would we do if we didn't have AZ to react to..............oh wait, that was last week.
What a mess indeed in Vt.


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2019)

halfpintvt said:


> Link to Jay Peak Receivers 6th Interim Report to the Court.
> https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RECEIVERS-SIXTH-INTERIM-REPORT.pdf



Specific Burke information:



> The Burke Mountain Resort opened its winter operations on November 23, 2018, which
> was the earliest the slopes were open at Burke since the 1990's. Above average snowfal122 and
> early season cold temperatures (which allowed for efficient snowmaking, helped shape the
> winter season). The resort ceased winter operations on April 14, 2019, the first year in the
> ...


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## halfpintvt (May 22, 2019)

Link to new Indictment against Quiros and Friends.


https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Indictment.pdf


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## VTKilarney (May 22, 2019)

The wheels of justice turn slowly, but eventually they get there.


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## BenedictGomez (May 22, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> *The wheels of justice turn slowly*, but eventually they get there.



Even slower when a State & its' powerful officials seek to block & obfuscate it.  

Wonder if justice will ever come for any State of Vermont employee (I doubt it).


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## Not Sure (May 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even slower when a State & its' powerful officials seek to block & obfuscate it.
> 
> Wonder if justice will ever come for any State of Vermont employee (I doubt it).



Nope......


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## thetrailboss (Nov 6, 2019)

Bump.  Burke will not be sold for at least a year.  Nearly $2 million invested in improvements over the last couple years.  Not bad.  The big concern is creating enough jobs for the EB-5 investors. 

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_d872a547-7179-5519-895a-01198c4167fb.html


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## ss20 (Dec 6, 2019)

ffs, I am computer-literate but I cannot find what time Burke opens its lifts.  I need to know mid-season weekend hours.  Is it 8am or 8:30am first chair???

I am now EXTREMELY familiar with the Burke website and various Google keyword searches including "ski Burke", "hours", "lifts", and "operating hours".


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## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2019)

Do you know their phone number? [emoji1]


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## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2019)

ss20 said:


> ffs, I am computer-literate but I cannot find what time Burke opens its lifts.  I need to know mid-season weekend hours.  Is it 8am or 8:30am first chair???
> 
> I am now EXTREMELY familiar with the Burke website and various Google keyword searches including "ski Burke", "hours", "lifts", and "operating hours".



Generally it’s 9:00 AM.  If there is a race it can be earlier.

Information can be found here: http://skiburke.com/skiing-and-riding/the-mountain/trails-lifts-and-grooming/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 7, 2019)

Two clicks for me...

Trails, Lifts, and Grooming

or...



> The Mid-Burke Express spins daily 9am -4pm servicing intermediate and  expert terrain only. Discounted tickets are available for purchase this  weekend for just $45/adult; $35/junior; half-day tickets starting at  12:15 are $28/per person.  Sunday, 12/8 will be NEK Sunday all day long  with tickets for all ages available for just $28/per person.



Weather and Conditions


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## ss20 (Dec 7, 2019)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Two clicks for me...
> 
> Trails, Lifts, and Grooming
> 
> ...



Is this standard for weekends or just this opening weekend?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 7, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Is this standard for weekends or just this opening weekend?



It’s standard.


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## zeke (Dec 27, 2019)

Anyone skied Burke yet this season?


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2020)

does this apply to ikon passes and can i just walk up to the lift ticket any day and buy for $45? considering burke for mlk weekend if they get snow after the mess this weekend. my only free option is magic and they're in way worse shape than burke before the shitstorm that's about to come. 

"Other Mountain Pass:  Pass holder of another mountain? Great! Even though we would love to call you our own, Burke welcomes all skiers and riders and will even reward you for your "other Mountain" pass holder status. Purchase season long winter lift tickets for just $45 per person."

edit. gah, scrolled down and answered my own question:

"ALL OF THE ABOVE TICKET DEALS ARE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE DURING NON-HOLIDAY PERIODS (with exception of military ski-free).  HOLIDAY PERIODS INCLUDE:

    Christmas Week through New Year's Eve:  December 26th, 2019 through January 1st, 2020
    Martin Luther King, Jr.:  January 17th-19th, 2020
    President Week:  February 14-22, 2020."


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## kingslug (Jan 9, 2020)

Never been there but looks like an option. 45 bucks is easy. ..Thursday 35 bucks for me.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2020)

Burke's lack of snowmaking is really showing this year.  I wouldn't even consider going there after this weekend until they get some decent snow.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 9, 2020)

As said, I have heard that they are struggling.  Fingers crossed for snow.


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## Sirbannedalot (Jan 9, 2020)

Burkes been looking pretty good this past week


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 10, 2020)

yea they reported 16" this week and they are almost 100% open including woods. webcam looked pretty good this week. they're gonna get pummelled by rain, but i wonder when killarney was last there?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea they reported 16" this week and they are almost 100% open including woods. webcam looked pretty good this week. they're gonna get pummelled by rain, but i wonder when killarney was last there?



I was last there on Sunday, Jan 5.  I also got a report from a friend who went on Thursday.


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## zeke (Jan 12, 2020)

I believe I read 2 million in snowmaking upgrades (and feel they’ve talked upgrades every year of q and post-q). Were they that far behind before and everything has just been replaced so they’re modernized with no net gain in capacity? Are the “millions” not being spent wisely? Do they not know what they’re doing anymore? Just bad decisions? Bad luck? Haven’t been there this year to see firsthand so I’m curious what you think the snowmaking issues are.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2020)

zeke said:


> I believe I read 2 million in snowmaking upgrades (and feel they’ve talked upgrades every year of q and post-q). Were they that far behind before and everything has just been replaced so they’re modernized with no net gain in capacity? Are the “millions” not being spent wisely? Do they not know what they’re doing anymore? Just bad decisions? Bad luck? Haven’t been there this year to see firsthand so I’m curious what you think the snowmaking issues are.



Perhaps FTN can comment as I have not skied there yet this year.   

They have, indeed, made a lot of improvements.  I think part of it is the weather and temps.  Another part of it is that if you look you see that they do have some Polecats and great snowmaking on a couple main routes to support BMA's training.  Warren's Way mainly.  Like a lot of other places, their other routes require assembling and disassembling guns which is time consuming.  I know water has become an issue as the Passumpsic has had some lean years.  They are planning to add more pond storage and to add more automation.

And this January thaw has hit them hard as has everyone else.  Pics from Magic and other places are just bleak.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 12, 2020)

A ski patrol member just told me that water supply has been an issue.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

burke is honoring the $45 walk up for other mountain passholders this weekend. they did not reply to my comment asking about ikon, but its a full season pass to lots of places so i'd be peeved if they denied it. i would expect the promo is aimed more at epic and ikon holders, and not at like, cannon passholders. 

killarney - any update on conditions? they got 8", but are still only reporting 15 trails. wondering if by sunday they will be in proper shape enough to save me the backtracking drive up to jay


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> burke is honoring the $45 walk up for other mountain passholders this weekend. they did not reply to my comment asking about ikon, but its a full season pass to lots of places so i'd be peeved if they denied it. i would expect the promo is aimed more at epic and ikon holders, and not at like, cannon passholders.
> 
> killarney - any update on conditions? they got 8", but are still only reporting 15 trails. wondering if by sunday they will be in proper shape enough to save me the backtracking drive up to jay



Unless something has drastically changed, they are pretty laid back as to promos and will likely honor it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

i'd be totally sold on burke if they honor my champlain valley card that is blacked out. $45 with a chance of free sounds pretty good.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'd be totally sold on burke if they honor my champlain valley card that is blacked out. $45 with a chance of free sounds pretty good.



That's pushing it with the MyChamplainValley card. I'm in the same boat though and Burke is one of the only places I'd bother ski over MLK. I've done it before and never waited more than a few minutes in line.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killarney - any update on conditions? they got 8", but are still only reporting 15 trails. wondering if by sunday they will be in proper shape enough to save me the backtracking drive up to jay



Unfortunately, I have not skied since the thaw.  We got a decent amount of snow in the last storm.  It was definitely on the high side of the forecast.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2020)

Someone recently asked about their $45 "other mountain" passholder special and they ARE running it for President's Week.  No blackouts. 

http://skiburke.com/deals/lift-ticket-deals/?fc_c=12697530x54351570x280600600


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## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2022)

Bump.

Just getting back after some time in the NEK.  Spent a lot of time at the Mountain.  Was hoping to ride the Sherburne, but that did not happen.  It went down on July 3rd and did not spin after that.  I got the scoop as to what happened for those that are bikers or have a Bike Park Season Pass.  Apparently, Burke had a major lightning strike(s) that destroyed Sherburne's electrical equipment and other electrical infrastructure.  I say "strikes" because the employee told me that the Summit Ski Patrol Building lost power as did Sherburne which are at different points on the mountain.  Sherburne needed a part that Poma did not readily have, so apparently Poma and Burke convinced Stowe (Vail) to provide it off a lift not running this summer.  After that was installed the lift ran on diesel for a short time before going down again.  No word on when it will be running again. 

Knowing that other places have had lightning strikes (Sunapee, Sugarbush for example) that have disabled lifts, and hearing about the lengthy process of going through insurance (that covers this sort of occurrence), it may be a while before Sherburne is back up and running. 

Other than that, a lot of energy in Burke with biking.  Sucks that Sherburne is down because that is a fair chunk of $$$$ lost.  

Dirt Church is a fun place.  Lots of locals there Saturday night for the new NEK Hiking Book release.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2022)

Burke Mountain on Instagram: "As we ride our way into the heart of summer we want to give an update on the Sherburne Express lift and Bike Park operations (short-term) this weekend. The week before last we were the recipient of an intense lightning s
					

Burke Mountain shared a post on Instagram: "As we ride our way into the heart of summer we want to give an update on the Sherburne Express lift and Bike Park operations (short-term) this weekend. The week before last we were the recipient of an intense lightning storm which struck our campus...




					www.instagram.com


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