# Death of Manual Transmission ETA????



## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2010)

When do you anticipate this happening?  Sure seems to me that manual transmissions will eventually be a thing of the past.  I think it's sad.

The inspiration for this thread was today's release of the 2011 Hyundai Sonata Turbo.  Very impressive numbers on this car.  274 horsepower, 269 lbs of torque, 34 MPG on the Highway.  For reference, I drive a 2007 Sonata with a V6 that has 235 horsepower, 226 lbs of torque and I get 29ish MPG on the Highway.  Pretty substantial improvement and I might be wrong, but I don't think there's a sedan on the market today that produces as much power with as good of gas mileage as the 2011 Sonata Turbo.  

I was disappointed to read there will be no manual transmission offered in the Turbo.  Not surprised as there was no manual offered in the V6.  I bought it over a manual 4cyl due to some features I wanted that were only available in V6. That said, it bummed me out when I bought my car that I couldn't get a manual transmission.  

Today's release led me to do some research.  There are hardly any medium-large sized sedans being offered today with an available manual transmission.  I thought this was specific to American and Asian cars, but even German automakers appear to be phasing out manuals. Even Audi got rid of the manual transmission in the A6 following 2004.  The current S6, which is a 'sports sedan' is only available in an automatic.  :blink:

I didn't check Mercedes, but it would appear that the only option out there for a mid-large size sedan is a BMW 5 series. WAY, WAY above my pay grade.

As hard as it is to say without getting laughed at as a Hyundai owner, I'm a bit of driving enthusiast. :lol:  I LOVE driving my wife's manual Mazda3 Hatchback.  That said, we want to have at least one larger car for multiple people transport.  


Anyone else think it's totally lame that there are so few cars being offered today with manual transmissions?


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## Euler (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree.  When we bought our 2009 Forester one big reason why we picked it over the RAV4 and the CRV was that those two vehicles were not offered in a manual transmission.  My wife and I both love to drive a stick shift, so choosing the Forester was easy.


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## marcski (Mar 31, 2010)

Yes. But I don't think its the death of the manual transmission...like you said its more in the mid-full-sized classes.  And, its just a reaction to the American market. Fat and lazy.  I am most likely going suby for my next vehicle as you can still get them in sticks.


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## Paul (Mar 31, 2010)

They can have my stick-shift when they pry it from my cold, dead hand.


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## bvibert (Mar 31, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone else think it's totally lame that there are so few cars being offered today with manual transmissions?



It's wicked lame, and pisses me off.  What's worse is the people that try to tell me that automatics with the manual selection mode (tiptronics and the like) are just as good as driving a stick shift. :smash:


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## RootDKJ (Mar 31, 2010)

Forget the stick shift...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2010)

marcski said:


> Yes. But I don't think its the death of the manual transmission...like you said its more in the mid-full-sized classes.  And, its just a reaction to the American market. Fat and lazy.  I am most likely going suby for my next vehicle as you can still get them in sticks.



and therein lies the rub.  Only Subaru I've ever driven regularly, a 2004 Legacy Wagon, was easily the biggest piece of crap I've ever had to suffer through.  So, so bad, that it would take an act of god for me to ever consider the manufacturer again.  :lol: 

Do the higher end model Suby's still offer a manual?  Almost all other Asian manufacturers do offer a manual, but only in the bottom of the barrel entry models.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 31, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone else think it's totally lame that there are so few cars being offered today with manual transmissions?



Totally sucks. Seems like there might be a market soon taking european manuals and converting them for the us market.

Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place. No one I've dated so far can even drive a stick. Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2010)

bvibert said:


> It's wicked lame, and pisses me off.  What's worse is the people that try to tell me that automatics with the manual selection mode (tiptronics and the like) are just as good as driving a stick shift. :smash:



I've had that option on the 2000 Audi automatic A6 I drove for a year and I have it on my Hyundai.........think it's totally lame and don't use it.  

I haven't tried the new 'paddle shifters', but would imagine they're equally as lame.


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## roark (Mar 31, 2010)

No offense, as a Hyundai owner (for the next couple days anyway, the econobox is already sold  but I don't see the new Sonata (certainly a nice car, and bang for the buck a solid buy) only being offered in an auto as any nail in the coffin. Hyundai still isn't a market maker. Driving enthusiasts still prefer manual - the difference is it will only be available in driving enthusiast autos. The family sedan doesn't fit that category.


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## Euler (Mar 31, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Do the higher end model Suby's still offer a manual?  Almost all other Asian manufacturers do offer a manual, but only in the bottom of the barrel entry models.



I'm pretty sure that when I was shopping for my Forester the higher end Turbo model was not available in a stick.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 31, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Do the higher end model Suby's still offer a manual?  Almost all other Asian manufacturers do offer a manual, but only in the bottom of the barrel entry models.



The Tribecca does not. I don't think any of the six cylinders come in a stick either.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place.



totally hot

my wife insists on it as well.  Hence why she drives the Mazda3 and I'm regulated to being the big car driver in the house.  

Seems the only big car left out there that's fun to drive is the 5 series beamer, which I'll never be able to afford.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2010)

Euler said:


> I'm pretty sure that when I was shopping for my Forester the higher end Turbo model was not available in a stick.



that's my point.  Only entry level el cheapo Asian cars are now available in a stick........LAME

I blame campgottagopee :razz:


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

roark said:


> No offense, as a Hyundai owner (for the next couple days anyway, the econobox is already sold  but I don't see the new Sonata (certainly a nice car, and bang for the buck a solid buy) only being offered in an auto as any nail in the coffin. Hyundai still isn't a market maker. Driving enthusiasts still prefer manual - the difference is it will only be available in driving enthusiast autos. The family sedan doesn't fit that category.



oh, I know Hyundai is not a market maker.  Though their power/mpg ratio on the Sonata does set the market

perhaps I hope for a bit too much.  A family sedan that dad can have a bit of fun with as well.


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## Marc (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> that's my point.  Only entry level el cheapo Asian cars are now available in a stick........LAME
> 
> I blame campgottagopee :razz:



Also, many sports cars and sports sedans still can be had with 3 pedals.  It's really just boring cars that are all slush boxes now.... and I don't plan on, God willing and the creek don't rise, owning a boring car in the near future.  Only slightly used exciting cars.



Don't let the US-centric view fool you though.  Across the pond, manny tranny's are the norm, and I don't mean the kind Paul hooked up with in Amsterdam.


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## andrec10 (Apr 1, 2010)

Marc said:


> Also, many sports cars and sports sedans still can be had with 3 pedals.  It's really just boring cars that are all slush boxes now.... and I don't plan on, God willing and the creek don't rise, owning a boring car in the near future.  Only slightly used exciting cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let the US-centric view fool you though.  Across the pond, manny tranny's are the norm, and I don't mean the kind Paul hooked up with in Amsterdam.



Um...EEEwww!!!uke:uke:


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## Glenn (Apr 1, 2010)

marcski said:


> And, its just a reaction to the American market. Fat and lazy.  I am most likely going suby for my next vehicle as you can still get them in sticks.



Sorta. Since the late 90's, Europe has seen a bit of a decline in manual trans use. From what gather, (and it's pretty unscientific), it a has a lot to do with "traffic". There's nothing worse than crawling along the highway, at 7mph, then stopping....7mph....stopping. I drove a standard for years and that was always a pain in the ass. Luckily, it didn't happen often and the other 99% of the driving I did kinda blanked out the negative. 

I do like the control you get with a manual. I taught my wife to drive my former car years ago...just so she'd know how. You never know. I think a few things stuck with her though. Whenever she drives her car in snow, she often uses the tiptronic to downshift when going down hills or slowing down.


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## riverc0il (Apr 1, 2010)

roark said:


> No offense, as a Hyundai owner (for the next couple days anyway, the econobox is already sold  but I don't see the new Sonata (certainly a nice car, and bang for the buck a solid buy) only being offered in an auto as any nail in the coffin. Hyundai still isn't a market maker. Driving enthusiasts still prefer manual - the difference is it will only be available in driving enthusiast autos. The family sedan doesn't fit that category.


Quoted for truth. Stick is not going any where. It probably is just not profitable putting them in a limited number of "family cars". 

And the notion that there are fewer sticks is because Americans are "fat and lazy" is offensive speaking from the perspective of an auto drive. I suppose markski still washes his clothes by hand in a bucket.

:lol:  Uh oh... *Runs and ducks head*

Seriously though, if I grew up here in NH, I would have learned to drive stick. Down in MA, I never had any desire to learn stick in traffic jam central where there is a light every mile. That may be lazy of me but I just saw it as not being worth the hassle.

Any ways, stick will always be in cars as they are designed in their present form. They offer too much added performance and value for those that enjoy its characteristics. Even if certain manufacturers eliminated sticks... that would create a market to meet the demand and another manufacturer would step up. Most car reviews seem to be written by those that prefer stick and of course there is a huge market of enthuists and performance hungry drivers. That demand will always be there. It just isn't a big market in larger and family cars.


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## MommaBear (Apr 1, 2010)

After driving a station wagon and then minivan for many years, I begged for something with a stick shift and a sunroof.  Call it midlife crisis or whatever.  

When my oldest started driving our automatic, we wanted to teach him to drive manual incase he was ever in the situation where he needed to know that (like if a friend gets drunk and safety requires HIM to drive their car).  He wanted no part of it until recently - said it looked like too much work.  He asked WHY I would want to drive manual.  He finally came around and tried it.  Now he knows why.  And is looking for manual himself when he gets his own car.  ;-)


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Seriously though, if I grew up here in NH, I would have learned to drive stick. Down in MA, I never had any desire to learn stick in traffic jam central where there is a light every mile. That may be lazy of me but I just saw it as not being worth the hassle.



I drive down the pike in stop and go in my stick almost everyday. Never bothered me. Although it is probably putting a lot of wear on my clutch.


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## hammer (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> I drive down the pike in stop and go in my stick almost everyday. Never bothered me. Although it is probably putting a lot of wear on my clutch.


Call me lazy but I've tried using my Geartronic shifter in traffic (which I know is not the same)...and I usually switch back to full auto in less than a minute.


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

MommaBear said:


> After driving a station wagon and then minivan for many years, I begged for something with a stick shift and a sunroof.  Call it midlife crisis or whatever.



I have a station wagon with a stick shift and a sunroof.  It's fun to drive _and _practical. 8)


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I have a station wagon with a stick shift and a sunroof.  It's fun to drive _and _practical. 8)



unfortunately, the new Passat Wagon isn't available in a manual.  Jetta you still have the option.


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## marcski (Apr 1, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Quoted for truth. Stick is not going any where. It probably is just not profitable putting them in a limited number of "family cars".
> 
> And the notion that there are fewer sticks is because Americans are "fat and lazy" is offensive speaking from the perspective of an auto drive. I suppose markski still washes his clothes by hand in a bucket.
> 
> ...



Steve, Steve, Steve....You're the one that called yourself lazy in this post....I was making a superlative generalization about the American Market. Obviously, not all Americans are fat and lazy...(maybe just one or the other  ).  I was obviously talking about the demand in the American Market....its just not there...I'm a big believer in the supply and demand.

Also, I think you have to get the Suby in the GT turbo to get it in a stick in the Legacy or outback models...which is what I looked at a few months ago. I still have another year before I really need to get into a new car...so just did some preliminary research. 

And, I happen to wash my clothes in this:







http://furniture-for-small-spaces.com/manual-clothes-washer.html


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

Marc said:


> Also, many sports cars and sports sedans still can be had with 3 pedals.  It's really just boring cars that are all slush boxes now.... and I don't plan on, God willing and the creek don't rise, owning a boring car in the near future.  Only slightly used exciting cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let the US-centric view fool you though.  Across the pond, manny tranny's are the norm, and I don't mean the kind Paul hooked up with in Amsterdam.



Some of us have families and need a car that's somewhat practical to drive, is it too much to ask that it also be fun to drive?  I wouldn't call my manual shift Passat wagon boring, but I couldn't go out and get a new one with a stick... :smash:


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> unfortunately, the new Passat Wagon isn't available in a manual.  Jetta you still have the option.



Yeah, I saw that.  What a freaking bummer!  I love my VWs, but I'm not going to buy one with a slush box.


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## severine (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place. No one I've dated so far can even drive a stick. Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...


Seriously? You can't find a girl who can drive a stick? I didn't think it was that rare of a skill.

I learned the hard way--1st car was a stick and I had 2 hours to learn to drive it before I was on my own. My favorite was my 97 VW Cabrio...miss having a stick-shift convertible. Stupid Blazer is auto, but that was more because we needed a vehicle that would fit carseats (the Cabrio would not...unless you wanted to sit on the dashboard) and since we were shopping used cars, we couldn't be too picky with our price range. I want a stick-shift convertible again.... Badly. Maybe when the Blazer dies...which is any day now. :lol:

Sad that it seems like manual transmission is being phased out, though. It's really not that hard to drive.


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## hrstrat57 (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> and therein lies the rub.  Only Subaru I've ever driven regularly, a 2004 Legacy Wagon, was easily the biggest piece of crap I've ever had to suffer through.  So, so bad, that it would take an act of god for me to ever consider the manufacturer again.  :lol:
> 
> Do the higher end model Suby's still offer a manual?  Almost all other Asian manufacturers do offer a manual, but only in the bottom of the barrel entry models.



Drive a WRX and report back to us.

Maybe the new limited model with leather...yummy.


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place. No one I've dated so far can even drive a stick. Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...



That is awesome.  I love that my wife knows how to and prefers driving a manual!

Good luck in your search!


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

hrstrat57 said:


> Drive a WRX and report back to us.
> 
> Maybe the new limited model with leather...yummy.



I'm sure the WRX is way fun to drive.  How's the back seat?  Fit two adults comfortably?  I'd imagine the MPG probably stinks.

I don't necessarily want Rally Car performance.  Just a mid-sized car with manual transmission that handles decently, can hit 60 in under 7 secs and gets good gas mileage.  Only option I see out there that does this right now is a BMW 5 series.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure the WRX is way fun to drive.  How's the back seat?  Fit two adults comfortably?  I'd imagine the MPG probably stinks.
> 
> I don't necessarily want Rally Car performance.  Just a mid-sized car with manual transmission that handles decently, can hit 60 in under 7 secs and gets good gas mileage.  Only option I see out there that does this right now is a BMW 5 series.



Audi A4 gets 30 mpg, six speed and plenty of power.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> that's my point.  Only entry level el cheapo Asian cars are now available in a stick........LAME
> 
> I blame campgottagopee :razz:



Hey now!!!!!

From a dealership stand point we're seeing the demand for bolt action dwindling, damn near non-exsistant. #1 reason is fuel milage, used to be you had to get a stick to get good MPG, that's not the case anymore. Suck it up and deal with it ;-)






deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure the WRX is way fun to drive.  How's the back seat?  Fit two adults comfortably?  I'd imagine the MPG probably stinks.
> 
> I don't necessarily want Rally Car performance.  Just a mid-sized car with manual transmission that handles decently, can hit 60 in under 7 secs and gets good gas mileage.  Only option I see out there that does this right now is a BMW 5 series.



Try Legacy GT ----sa_weet


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Totally sucks. Seems like there might be a market soon taking european manuals and converting them for the us market.
> 
> Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place. No one I've dated so far can even drive a stick. Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...



Stay away from my gf ;-)

Skiing since she was 2.

Driving stick since before she got her license... Won't consider driving anything with less than three pedals... 

She taught me how to ski and drive stick.

Oh, and she's cute too... 

-w (who considers himself quite lucky)


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I have a station wagon with a stick shift and a sunroof.  It's fun to drive _and _practical. 8)



But only 3 (working) brake calipers ;-)

-w


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 1, 2010)

Yes. we both  i always  drove 5/ speed sports sedan/hatchbacl   Saab 900 turbs   or Celica GT,s  or 5 speed econoboxes as second vehicles and enjoyed the FUN  BUT  now have  Saab 9.3 Sport Combi and Corolla LE  both slushboxes more for ease and frankly resale


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> But only 3 (working) brake calipers ;-)
> 
> -w



You should have seen what happened on the way home... 

Parts should be here today, and the car will get fixed tomorrow.  New RR caliper and brake line, flushed brake fluid, and new pads and rotors all the way around.  Plus an oil change for good measure. :beer:


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

Warp Daddy said:


> Yes. we both  i always  drove 5/ speed sports sedan/hatchbacl   Saab 900 turbs   or Celica GT,s  or 5 speed econoboxes as second vehicles and enjoyed the FUN  BUT  now have  Saab 9.3 Sport Combi and Corolla LE  both slushboxes more for ease and frankly resale



Interesting on the resale... The cars I've been looking at recently (Audi A4 / S4) have been more expensive with the manual as they're much rarer, and are holding value better...

I plan on holding on to my car for a while until the new S4s start showing up in the used market in decent numbers... If only Audi USA brought the avant over in a stick...

-w


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Audi A4 gets 30 mpg, six speed and plenty of power.



might be worth a look at a lightly used when my car comes up for replacement.  My only beef with Audi was I found mine to be ultra expensive to repair.


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## hammer (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Audi A4 gets 30 mpg, six speed and plenty of power.


Not sure about the new A4s but anything older than 2009 has a bit of a tight back seat...not any bigger than my Volvo S40 IIRC and the S40 is about the same size as a Mazda 3.


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

hammer said:


> Not sure about the new A4s but anything older than 2009 has a bit of a tight back seat...not any bigger than my Volvo S40 IIRC and the S40 is about the same size as a Mazda 3.



I have an '04. One of my former roommates has a Mazda 3.

The back seat is MUCH roomier in the A4.

I (6'4") can fit four adults in my car comfortably... Couldn't do that in his 3.

Also, everything else about the car is totally different... Apples to Oranges comparison (other than they both have seats and a steering wheel).

-w


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> might be worth a look at a lightly used when my car comes up for replacement.  My only beef with Audi was I found mine to be ultra expensive to repair.



I think the newer ones get better MPG than the old ones.



hammer said:


> Not sure about the new A4s but anything older than 2009 has a bit of a tight back seat...not any bigger than my Volvo S40 IIRC and the S40 is about the same size as a Mazda 3.



2010s have a little more room in backseat.


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> I think the newer ones get better MPG than the old ones.



I think you're right. Direct injection + more aluminum.



> 2010s have a little more room in backseat.



The new gen (B8 ) started with the 09s.

Car is much wider than the B6/B7 generation. I had one as a loaner and it feels MUCH bigger inside (old A6 sized).

-w


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## hammer (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> I have an '04. One of my former roommates has a Mazda 3.
> 
> The back seat is MUCH roomier in the A4.
> 
> ...


Only comparing space...I agree that anything else is Apples to Oranges.

I decided to get my S40 last year in part because I felt I could fit my whole family in it.  Didn't feel that way about the CPO A4s I test drove.  I'm only 5'9", however...my guess is that someone well over 6' would find the S40 to be a tight squeeze.

The newer A4s are definitely bigger, though, and would be a reasonable alternative to a BMW 5-series (which, cost aside, I found to be a bit too big for what I wanted).


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## Glenn (Apr 1, 2010)

MommaBear said:


> After driving a station wagon and then minivan for many years, I begged for something with a stick shift and a sunroof.  Call it midlife crisis or whatever.
> 
> When my oldest started driving our automatic, we wanted to teach him to drive manual incase he was ever in the situation where he needed to know that (like if a friend gets drunk and safety requires HIM to drive their car).  He wanted no part of it until recently - said it looked like too much work.  He asked WHY I would want to drive manual.  He finally came around and tried it.  Now he knows why.  And is looking for manual himself when he gets his own car.  ;-)




That's a great story. Let us know what he ends up with. 8)


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## bigbog (Apr 1, 2010)

*....The dinosaurs are gone = most manual trans...*

I hear ya' DHS,
What talks in sales and marketing are numbers = $$$, and for people who don't enjoy driving a stick, imho, a stick will get in the way of their cell phone hand...much less operate their GPS systems...lol. (*I think reading maps and "planning" routes in the brain can only help in later age!!!) but I do agree with Steve..especially with eastern MA's #128-accordian-style traffic = much easier with an auto around a city...and let's face it, driving habits are below those of decades past...defensive driving is much easier with auto.  **Even now when I get down to the Portland area(which is growing)...meet up with drivers with _urban_ habits...I'm glad I have an auto in my Xterra(lame. but was so inexpensive with good engine/drivetrain).
As sales/marketing/economics is to a large extent..."local"...many of the 4x4s with truck assembly(Nissan, Jeep, and Toyota), dedicated to off-road work/leisure...come standard....in addition to the "suburban-SUV" models....they know their market/location, even in the rural areas of the US.
Ditto Momma-Bear's sentiments.....stick shift and a sunroof..(added "dirt roads" is a plus).and the planet is still perched on its axis.  The next X will be a standard.


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## roark (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure the WRX is way fun to drive. How's the back seat? Fit two adults comfortably? I'd imagine the MPG probably stinks.
> 
> I don't necessarily want Rally Car performance. Just a mid-sized car with manual transmission that handles decently, can hit 60 in under 7 secs and gets good gas mileage. Only option I see out there that does this right now is a BMW 5 series.


Recently picked up an '07 Saab 9-3 anniversary edtion: ~30 mpg, 0-60 just under 7 sec. Back seat isn't the biggest, but ok for a couple adults. We did go with the auto... just wasn't thrilled with the feel of the manual gearbox. It's the first auto we've ever owned. But there are quite a few 6spd manuals out there. I feel it's the perfect compromise between performance, comfort, and economy. That the bottom dropped out of the market and I could get one for less than a 1/3 of the original sticker with 25K miles, still under warranty didn't hurt either .


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## Marc (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Some of us have families and need a car that's somewhat practical to drive, is it too much to ask that it also be fun to drive?  I wouldn't call my manual shift Passat wagon boring, but I couldn't go out and get a new one with a stick... :smash:



My WRX wagon is fun and practical.  It would be fine for a family of 4.  A little heavy on the turbo lag, but that's a small issue I guess.

I get about 25 mpg in it, driving about 50% conservative, 50%... shall we say 'spirited.'


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

Marc said:


> My WRX wagon is fun and practical.  It would be fine for a family of 4.  A little heavy on the turbo lag, but that's a small issue I guess.
> 
> I get about 25 mpg in it, driving about 50% conservative, 50%... shall we say 'spirited.'



One of very few like that.  I've never been a fan of Subbies, but it's looking like they'll have to be on my shopping list next time I'm looking for a car.  I don't know how good of an idea it would be to put me behind the wheel of a WRX though...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> You should have seen what happened on the way home...



spill it


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> spill it



"Spill it" - That's what happened to my brake fluid when the brake line snapped while pulling out of the condo parking lot. :-o


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## SKIQUATTRO (Apr 1, 2010)

always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick.  they still make the a4/a3 with stick.....just another fact of lazy americans who dont appreciate driving...guess their clutch leg gets too tired waiting in the drive thru line and cant eat a triple cheezeburger and shift at the same time.....


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

roark said:


> Recently picked up an '07 Saab 9-3 anniversary edtion: ~30 mpg, 0-60 just under 7 sec. Back seat isn't the biggest, but ok for a couple adults. We did go with the auto... just wasn't thrilled with the feel of the manual gearbox. It's the first auto we've ever owned. But there are quite a few 6spd manuals out there. I feel it's the perfect compromise between performance, comfort, and economy. That the bottom dropped out of the market and I could get one for less than a 1/3 of the original sticker with 25K miles, still under warranty didn't hurt either .



Have to agree on the feel of the 6sp. Test drove an '07 9-3 Aero, and the clutch felt so weak... Wasn't my cup of tea.

-w


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## o3jeff (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...



Paul I think fits this criteria...


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## ctenidae (Apr 1, 2010)

I hate the growing difficulty of finding a manaual. I drive a 6-speed MB C300, and my wife drives one of perhaps a dozen 6-speed Cayennes in the country. I hate automatics.


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## marcski (Apr 1, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick.  they still make the a4/a3 with stick.....just another fact of lazy americans who dont appreciate driving...guess their clutch leg gets too tired waiting in the drive thru line and cant eat a triple cheezeburger and shift at the same time.....



You better do it fast. According to:  http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0911_2010_bmw_550i_gt_review/index.html
the 5 series wagon may go by the wayside. I saw one of these 550i GT's the other day and I have to admit it was really beefy and phat looking.  If you combine this new offering with the X6 might not be much room in their offerings.  Which is too bad IMHO.


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick.  they still make the a4/a3 with stick.....



No A4 Avants with a stick though... :???:


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## Marc (Apr 1, 2010)

Ok, I have a question.  Why is everyone so concerned about back seat space?  I never ride in the back seat of my car.  I don't give shiat if my friends are cramped, as long as there's enough room for me.


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## ctenidae (Apr 1, 2010)

Marc said:


> Ok, I have a question.  Why is everyone so concerned about back seat space?  I never ride in the back seat of my car.  I don't give shiat if my friends are cramped, as long as there's enough room for me.



+1. The less comfortable the back seat is, the less likely I'll have to drive everyone around.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 1, 2010)

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/new-york-auto-show-2011-subaru-wrx-sti/


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## 2knees (Apr 1, 2010)

i'll never stop driving a stick shift.  i've never owned an automatic and i see no reason to switch.  

when i met my wife, she was driving a 5 speed acura, man that was a fun car to rip around in.  now she drives a mini van...:sad:


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## WakeboardMom (Apr 1, 2010)

Re: family cars and stick shifts...I gave up driving a stick just about the time I had my third kid.  Trying to deal with the sh*t that goes on in the back seat was enough; I wanted the luxury of an automatic.

The first Volvo wagon we had was an '85 V70.  (No XC available then.)  That was a fun car to drive.  My husband had an ad from one of the car magazines hanging in his office with a picture of the car and the caption:  "If Ferrari made a wagon, this would be it."

I'm goin' back to a stick.  My C70 convertible was bought on a whim because it was a good deal; if we had shopped around, we would've looked for a manual.  Next car is likely a 3-series BMW convertible and that'll be a standard.  I'll never NOT have a convertible.  Like other people here have said, "I don't sit in the back.  If somebody needs a ride, they'll have to deal with the cramped quarters."  : - )

3 outta my 4 kids can drive a manual transmission.  2 own cars with sticks.  Gotta work on teaching my daughter.


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## 2knees (Apr 1, 2010)

regarding kids, no way would i want to be the primary taxi service and be dealing with a stick shift.  As it is, when i drive my kids around in the van, half the time my right arm is in the back seat breaking up a fight.....


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## FRITOLAYGUY (Apr 1, 2010)

i learned on a stick, my car now is a 6speed i drive it because its real driving and i get bored easily, i like all the odd things about it, waiting for the guy in front of u at a stop sign just rolling back n forth right where u catch the clutch, downshifting cause im too lazy to use my brakes and my personal favorite having everyone ask to drive my car and then well unless they are a man or lesbian most seem to not know how.


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 1, 2010)

I was extremely disapointed when I bought my truck.  I wanted to get a Tacoma, or a Frontier because you can get a 4x4, Crew Cab, V6, Manuel Trans.  Unfortunately I could not afford one of those two options and had to settle for a Chevy Colorado with everything I wanted except the trans.


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Stay away from my gf ;-)
> 
> Skiing since she was 2.
> 
> ...



Another reason she rocks:

She just asked me to go see Hot Tub Time Machine with her this Sunday...


-w


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## ctenidae (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Another reason she rocks:
> 
> She just asked me to go see Hot Tub Time Machine with her this Sunday...
> 
> ...



Wait a minute- she just asked me, too.

No wait, my bad- we're going on Saturday.


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Another reason she rocks:
> 
> She just asked me to go see Hot Tub Time Machine with her this Sunday...
> 
> ...



Not fair....I have asked many people if they want to go, and they all just laugh.  I dont want to be the creep there by myself....


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Another reason she rocks:
> 
> She just asked me to go see Hot Tub Time Machine with her this Sunday...
> 
> ...



She's on facebook right? I'll have to look her up. :-D


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I was extremely disapointed when I bought my truck.  I wanted to get a Tacoma, or a Frontier because you can get a 4x4, Crew Cab, V6, Manuel Trans.  Unfortunately I could not afford one of those two options and had to settle for a Chevy Colorado with everything I wanted except the trans.



Couldn't score a used one? Had a 98' with only the 4banger. Loved that truck, but it was pretty underpowered. 5 speed helped a bit.


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 1, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Couldn't score a used one? Had a 98' with only the 4banger. Loved that truck, but it was pretty underpowered. 5 speed helped a bit.



I tow a mowing trailer alot in the summer so a 4 cylinder would have to work more.  Plus I wanted the crew cab which is very rare with the 4 cylinder.  And only the 04' 4-cylinder crew Colorado had the manual.

As far as Used goes....I bought a 05' Colorado last spring.  I would have had to go several years older for a Toyota with like options as my truck for the price.  They hold their value very well.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Apr 1, 2010)

Originally Posted by SKIQUATTRO  
always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick. they still make the a4/a3 with stick..... 


my 02 Avant A4 is stick, was sure i saw a new a4 avant with stick (could be wrong...hope not)


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> Originally Posted by SKIQUATTRO
> always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick. they still make the a4/a3 with stick.....
> 
> 
> my 02 Avant A4 is stick, was sure i saw a new a4 avant with stick (could be wrong...hope not)



I checked Audi.com and they only list this year's A4 Avant with the Tiptronic.  The Sedan is available with a 6 speed stick though.


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## snowmonster (Apr 1, 2010)

When I bought my Jeep Patriot, I had basically only 2 specs: sunroof and manual transmission. The first one was easy to find, the second was rarer. They basically tracked down the only manual Patriot in all of New England and drove it up from CT. I like the control and feel of a stick shift. My basic philosophy is that, if you like driving, you will prefer a manual. Little SM has a manual Mini Cooper. THAT is a fun car to drive.


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> Originally Posted by SKIQUATTRO
> always had and always will have stick....sad to see the new audi a6's not avail in stick esp in the avant, make one have to look at the bmw 5 series wagon with stick. they still make the a4/a3 with stick.....
> 
> 
> my 02 Avant A4 is stick, was sure i saw a new a4 avant with stick (could be wrong...hope not)





bvibert said:


> I checked Audi.com and they only list this year's A4 Avant with the Tiptronic.  The Sedan is available with a 6 speed stick though.



Brian is right.

AOA decided that Americans don't want wagons with manual transmissions.

Probably because the vast majority don't.

Myself, I'd love one of the new S4s in an avant with a stick...

sadly, not going to happen... Unless I move to Europe... 

So I've been on Autotrader today looking up 2000-2002 S4 avants with manual transmissions... Might have to get one in a year or so as a second car...

-w


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## Geoff (Apr 1, 2010)

I have a VW direct shift gearbox in my GTI.  It's basically two manual transmissions bolted together and shifts with solenoids.  It's far quicker than a manual transmission with a professional driver.   I use the paddle shifters all the time in the snow and for speed control going down hills.   Manual transmissions are last century's technology.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Manual transmissions are last century's technology.



Maybe, but they are a hell of a lot more fun than tiptronics or paddle shifters.


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## hrstrat57 (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure the WRX is way fun to drive.  How's the back seat?  Fit two adults comfortably?  I'd imagine the MPG probably stinks.
> 
> I don't necessarily want Rally Car performance.  Just a mid-sized car with manual transmission that handles decently, can hit 60 in under 7 secs and gets good gas mileage.  Only option I see out there that does this right now is a BMW 5 series.



ummm....how bout 60 in under 5 sec?

drive one you will buy one....you can squeeze out 30 mpg if you baby it and lay off the turbo(you probably wouldn't be able to do that)....premium fuel tho to feed the turbo/intercooler....

I am still running an Impreza 5 speed....2007 87K and bombproof thus far...0-60 is just a bit over 7 and I average about 30mpg.....on regular gas.

WRX purchase is soon I hope.....

I have had 2 adults in the back seat and they didn't complain tho they are very polite people......


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## mondeo (Apr 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I have a VW direct shift gearbox in my GTI.  It's basically two manual transmissions bolted together and shifts with solenoids.  It's far quicker than a manual transmission with a professional driver.   I use the paddle shifters all the time in the snow and for speed control going down hills.   Manual transmissions are last century's technology.


I was wondering how long it was going to take you to chime in.

The first company to ditch manuals entirely is going to be Ferrari. Lambos, Astons, and Porsches are going to be next. It's sad that the STI is still burdened with only being offered with a manual. In 10 (or sooner, maybe only 5,) years all gearboxes will be DSGs or CVTs.

And don't confuse Tiptronic or the other early "paddle shift" trannys with DSGs. The early ones were just slushboxes that allowed the driver to have a little control over what gear was selected. They still carried all the suckiness of autos (shift time, drivetrain loss, searching for gears, etc.) and didn't even allow full control. DSGs are better than manuals, just not to purists. But look at what cars are out there now; what ones are for driving purists? Lotus. Porsche 911 GT3. And that's it.


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## Marc (Apr 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I have a VW direct shift gearbox in my GTI.  It's basically two manual transmissions bolted together and shifts with solenoids.  It's far quicker than a manual transmission with a professional driver.   I use the paddle shifters all the time in the snow and for speed control going down hills.   Manual transmissions are last century's technology.



Doesn't mean anything.  A lot of vehicles still have live axles.


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## MR. evil (Apr 1, 2010)

We bought a Honda Accord coupe last year and it was almost impossibe to get with a stick shift. It took us a couple of months to locate one in New England as Honda made less than 1000 of them    With a V6 / manual tranny combo. The Accord is one of the best selling cars in the US and Honda made so few of the sports coupe model with stick shift.....WTF.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

I noticed Subaru has this interactive page where you can select some requirements. Click Manual and all the auto only editions drop out: http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/build/index.html

Nice that you don't have to go through the individual models to find out.


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I have a VW direct shift gearbox in my GTI.  It's basically two manual transmissions bolted together and shifts with solenoids.  It's far quicker than a manual transmission with a professional driver.   I use the paddle shifters all the time in the snow and for speed control going down hills.



That's fine, and is pretty cool technology, but unless it has a clutch pedal and a traditional gear selector then it's an automatic and I'm not interested.



Geoff said:


> Manual transmissions are last century's technology.



That may be, but they're still a whole lot more fun than the alternative.


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## mondeo (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm curious - how many of you left-foot brake when driving autos?


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm curious - how many of you left-foot brake when driving autos?



Did it by accident while moving my friend's Yaris... Good thing the brakes are as strong as the acceleration (i.e. not very).

-w


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## wa-loaf (Apr 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm curious - how many of you left-foot brake when driving autos?



Never done it. I have put my foot out to clutch and reached for the stick. But the brake is in the same place on an auto as it is in a manual so it's pretty tough to mix-up.


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## mondeo (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Did it by accident while moving my friend's Yaris... Good thing the brakes are as strong as the acceleration (i.e. not very).
> 
> -w





wa-loaf said:


> Never done it. I have put my foot out to clutch and reached for the stick. But the brake is in the same place on an auto as it is in a manual so it's pretty tough to mix-up.


Not talking about accidentally. As in, when I drive an auto, my right foot doesn't touch the brake pedal. Very hard to do with three pedals, heel and toeing doesn't allow you to mix gas and brake anywhere near as well as a free left foot. And going faster is more fun than just having three pedals.


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm curious - how many of you left-foot brake when driving autos?



Not I.  The left foot is for the clutch, if there isn't one then it doesn't get used, aside from occasionally stomping it on the floor like there was a clutch when slowing down...


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## mondeo (Apr 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Did it by accident while moving my friend's Yaris... Good thing the brakes are as strong as the acceleration (i.e. not very).
> 
> -w


Unintended deceleration! Quick, where's the recall?!


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Not talking about accidentally. As in, when I drive an auto, my right foot doesn't touch the brake pedal. Very hard to do with three pedals, heel and toeing doesn't allow you to mix gas and brake anywhere near as well as a free left foot. And going faster is more fun than just having three pedals.



I have no problem controlling the gas pedal with my right foot while also using it to apply the brake.  Aside from blipping the throttle while down shifting I'm not sure why else I'd need gas and brake at the same time.  Your last line confuses me.


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## 2knees (Apr 1, 2010)

who needs the clutch, just speed shift....


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## mondeo (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I have no problem controlling the gas pedal with my right foot while also using it to apply the brake.  Aside from blipping the throttle while down shifting I'm not sure why else I'd need gas and brake at the same time.  Your last line confuses me.


Controlling over/understeer in corners, also makes it easier to smoothly transition from hard trailbraking to accelerating right at the apex rather than missing a quarter second. If you're not on the gas or brakes, you're wasting traction.


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## WJenness (Apr 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I have no problem controlling the gas pedal with my right foot while also using it to apply the brake.  Aside from blipping the throttle while down shifting I'm not sure why else I'd need gas and brake at the same time.  Your last line confuses me.



This.

-w


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## bvibert (Apr 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Controlling over/understeer in corners, also makes it easier to smoothly transition from hard trailbraking to accelerating right at the apex rather than missing a quarter second. If you're not on the gas or brakes, you're wasting traction.



Now you're just putting way too much thought into it.  That fraction of a second isn't going to make any discernible difference for drivers on public roads.  Not to mention it's not very hard to lean your foot over onto the accelerator while coming off the brake if you're that worried about it.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2010)

MR. evil said:


> We bought a Honda Accord coupe last year and it was almost impossibe to get with a stick shift. It took us a couple of months to locate one in New England as Honda made less than 1000 of them    With a V6 / manual tranny combo. The Accord is one of the best selling cars in the US and Honda made so few of the sports coupe model with stick shift.....WTF.



I love your car.  It would be high on my wish list, but the wife and I intend on multiplying in the next year or so and she thinks getting a baby seat into a coupe will be a PITA.  The back seat for your car is pretty darn roomy for coupe IMO.


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## MR. evil (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I love your car.  It would be high on my wish list, but the wife and I intend on multiplying in the next year or so and she thinks getting a baby seat into a coupe will be a PITA.  The back seat for your car is pretty darn roomy for coupe IMO.



it's a great car, lots of power, handles well and really fun to drive. The only complaint would be the brakes. Very soft pads, already had to replace the rears with only 25k. After a year and a half I am still not used to the 6 speed after driving a 5 speed for so long.


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## faceplant (Apr 1, 2010)

a buddy just picked up a Kizashi over a Legacy on account of the mpg...
it comes with a stick but he got cvt & awd which suposedly gets 31 highway
its a small midsize.....http://jalopnik.com/5382769/2010-suzuki-kizashi-first-drive


my wife drives a stick to:beer:


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## faceplant (Apr 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> unfortunately, the new Passat Wagon isn't available in a manual.  Jetta you still have the option.




mebbe i'm reading this wrong but it says you can still get a stick on the pasat....
http://www.allautoreviews.com/auto_reviews/volkswagen/volkswagen-passat-wagon.htm


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## deadheadskier (Apr 2, 2010)

MR. evil said:


> it's a great car, lots of power, handles well and really fun to drive. The only complaint would be the brakes. Very soft pads, already had to replace the rears with only 25k. After a year and a half I am still not used to the 6 speed after driving a 5 speed for so long.



I'll be curious to see if the second set last longer.  Rears on my Hyundai went around 40K, which was apparently normal. They said the second set would last longer. I'm now at 98K and they're fine.  I'm just about to replace the fronts.



faceplant said:


> mebbe i'm reading this wrong but it says you can still get a stick on the pasat....
> http://www.allautoreviews.com/auto_reviews/volkswagen/volkswagen-passat-wagon.htm



maybe that's what's available in Europe?

according to the VW website the wagon comes with a six speed auto

http://www.vw.com/passatwagon/completespecs/en/us/#engineering


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## Marc (Apr 2, 2010)

MR. evil said:


> it's a great car, lots of power, handles well and really fun to drive. The only complaint would be the brakes. Very soft pads, already had to replace the rears with only 25k. After a year and a half I am still not used to the 6 speed after driving a 5 speed for so long.



Wat?  You drivin around with the e brake on?  I hardly ever have to replace rear pads.  And _never_ before the fronts.


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## WJenness (Apr 2, 2010)

Marc said:


> Wat?  You drivin around with the e brake on?  I hardly ever have to replace rear pads.  And _never_ before the fronts.



Agreed...

That's crazy. 

Or the manufacturer was really cheap with the rear pads.

Or You like to drive in reverse and slam on the brakes repeatedly.

-w


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## hammer (Apr 2, 2010)

MR. evil said:


> it's a great car, lots of power, handles well and really fun to drive. The only complaint would be the brakes. Very soft pads, already had to replace the rears with only 25k. After a year and a half I am still not used to the 6 speed after driving a 5 speed for so long.


Did you go with aftermarket pads for the replacement?



Marc said:


> Wat?  You drivin around with the e brake on?  I hardly ever have to replace rear pads.  And _never_ before the fronts.


My 1990 Acura Integra went through rears at twice the rate of  fronts...thought it was strange, must have been the way the brakes were  designed.

I just managed to get over 60K on the last set of brakes on my  Highlander...that's pretty good for me.  I used to go through brakes in about 35K miles on my Subaru, and in addition, the rotors would tend to warp a bit easily.  I try not to be tough on brakes but it's hard to do that when dealing with Boston area drivers.


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## MR. evil (Apr 2, 2010)

Marc said:


> Wat?  You drivin around with the e brake on?  I hardly ever have to replace rear pads.  And _never_ before the fronts.



Haha.... It's a known issue with the new Accords. Honda Canada has already issued a recall on the rear brakes but Honda USA is ignoring the issue. Based on a Honda Forum I did some research on it appears i did good going 25k. Lots of people reported rears going around 12 to 15 k. I did bitch to my dealer and all I had to do was pay for pads, they comped me labor.


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## Geoff (Apr 2, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm curious - how many of you left-foot brake when driving autos?



Only if my right leg is in a cast or knee immobilizer and I can't get to the brake with my right leg.

I've driven a manual with a knee immobilizer a few times in my life.   No big deal.   It's much easier with your left leg immobilized than if your right leg is immobilized.


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## Geoff (Apr 2, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Maybe, but they are a hell of a lot more fun than tiptronics or paddle shifters.



I suggest you go with leather lace ski boots, cable bindings, and wood skis with screw-in edge sections.   Way more fun than plastic boots, wimpy release bindings, and shaped skis.


----------



## Marc (Apr 2, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Brian is right.
> 
> AOA decided that Americans don't want wagons with manual transmissions.
> 
> ...



Careful.  B5 turbos occasionally like to ruin their bearings for no apparent good reason.  I sold my '01.5 as soon as the CPO warranty was up.  Those years had lots of other quality issues too, that get very pricey if not under warranty.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I suggest you go with leather lace ski boots, cable bindings, and wood skis with screw-in edge sections.   Way more fun than plastic boots, wimpy release bindings, and shaped skis.



I see your point, but you can't argue that some people will always enjoy a regular old 3 peddle set up over the new technology.  It's not necessarily performance, but what people find fun.  It's like tube amplifiers, some just prefer the old school.  

I haven't tried paddle shifters.  I have owned two cars with tiptronic, my hyundai and an audi A6 and I barely used it with both vehicles.  It's a nice option, but no substitute for 3 peddles.


----------



## Marc (Apr 2, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I see your point, but you can't argue that some people will always enjoy a regular old 3 peddle set up over the new technology.  It's not necessarily performance, but what people find fun.  It's like tube amplifiers, some just prefer the old school.
> 
> I haven't tried paddle shifters.  I have owned two cars with tiptronic, my hyundai and an audi A6 and I barely used it with both vehicles.  It's a nice option, but no substitute for 3 peddles.



A lot of people over look the transmission and focus on the shift method.

The tiptronics you've owned still have a planetary gearset (or two) with multiple hydraulic clutches and a torque converter between it and the engine.  The tiptronic systems simply allow you to tell the transmission what gear to be in.

That's not a substitute for three pedals because a traditional manual shift transmission doesn't use planetary gearsets, they use constant meshed gears with splined collars and dog teeth to couple the selected gear to the drive shaft.

High performance manufacturer's paddle shift (like Ferrari) or electronic shift systems use the latter type of transmission with electronic mechanisms in place of the gear select lever and shift forks and rods.  So there isn't much comparison to that and what you've owned that they call tiptronic.  Totall different animals.


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## WJenness (Apr 2, 2010)

Marc said:


> Careful.  B5 turbos occasionally like to ruin their bearings for no apparent good reason.  I sold my '01.5 as soon as the CPO warranty was up.  Those years had lots of other quality issues too, that get very pricey if not under warranty.



I know  That's why it could never be a primary car for me.

Some day when I can afford a garage queen, it will probably be a B5S4 or a B7RS4... 

You know, when I hit the lottery.

-w


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## wa-loaf (Apr 22, 2010)

Add security feature as a bonus for MT: http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/all-news-stick-040210-cn,0,5558000.story


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## bvibert (Apr 22, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Add security feature as a bonus for MT: http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/all-news-stick-040210-cn,0,5558000.story



Awesome!  I never thought of that as being an added bonus! :beer:


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## 2knees (Apr 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I suggest you go with leather lace ski boots, cable bindings, and wood skis with screw-in edge sections.   Way more fun than plastic boots, wimpy release bindings, and shaped skis.



that is the dumbest analogy i've heard in a long time.


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## Marc (Apr 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> that is the dumbest analogy i've heard in a long time.



Though the fact that at least two of our members for sure know what an analogy is puts us ahead of a lot of other message boards.


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## bvibert (Apr 22, 2010)

Marc said:


> Though the fact that at least two of our members for sure know what an analogy is puts us ahead of a lot of other message boards.



Yay for AZ! :blink:


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## tjf67 (Apr 22, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Agreed...
> 
> That's crazy.
> 
> ...



I am getting the impression that is a honda issue.  The CRV had to get new rear pads with 25k miles on it.  The factory tires did not last much longer.  They are cheaping out. in places that are not covered under warrenty


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## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I am getting the impression that is a honda issue.  The CRV had to get new rear pads with 25k miles on it.  The factory tires did not last much longer.  They are cheaping out. in places that are not covered under warrenty



All the more reason to buy a Subie TJ !!!!!!:razz:


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## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> All the more reason to buy a Subie TJ !!!!!!:razz:



I am buying American from here on out.  I hope you sell a million Subies but they were never my cup of tea.   My buddie just blew his head gasket on his little sporty Subie.  No match for the SHO.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 23, 2010)

A car has to be running hot to blow a headgasket, correct? Or can it happen through normal use? Seems to me people aren't paying attention to the temp gauge.


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## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

2knees said:


> that is the dumbest analogy i've heard in a long time.



F1 drivers don't use their left foot.   The clutch pedal is obsolete and has been replaced by better technology.   You don't use the clutch pedal to shift a sequential manual transmission.


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

Geoff said:


> F1 drivers don't use their left foot.   The clutch pedal is obsolete and has been replaced by better technology.   You don't use the clutch pedal to shift a sequential manual transmission.



Well that's certainly not true.  I've driven a sequential transmission w/ a clutch pedal- all collegiate Formula SAE cars use motorcycle engine/transmissions that have sequential gear boxes and the the cable is run to a pedal rather than a lever like on a motorcycle.

Lots of closed wheel race cars still use sequential transmissions with a conventional foot pedal to engage and disengage the clutch.

Formula 1 drivers use their left foot to brake.  The cars still use a manually engaged/disengaged clutch though.  It's just a lever on the steering column, just below the gear selector paddles.  See below:







#7 and #15 are the clutch levers.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/30


----------



## 2knees (Apr 23, 2010)

Geoff said:


> F1 drivers don't use their left foot.   The clutch pedal is obsolete and has been replaced by better technology.   You don't use the clutch pedal to shift a sequential manual transmission.



just sayin that comparing driving a stick shift to using completely painful and antiquated ski equiptment doesnt compute for me.  leather boots and wooden skis would hurt.  and suck.  driving a stick shift is fun and easy.  however old it may be.


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

2knees said:


> just sayin that comparing driving a stick shift to using completely painful and antiquated ski equiptment doesnt compute for me.  leather boots and wooden skis would hurt.  and suck.  driving a stick shift is fun and easy.  however old it may be.



I like my antiquated clutch- can't dump the clutch with those flappy paddle shfter things.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

I haven't had a stick for my last 2 cars...
I really don't miss it..   I use the Triptonic to downshift on hills and for snow..  I use the sport mode for performance...

I learned on a manual and took my drivers test with it...  72 Ford Pinto...


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> I like my antiquated clutch- can't dump the clutch with those flappy paddle shfter things.



OTOH you're less likely to drop a transmission or a diff.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I am buying American from here on out.  I hope you sell a million Subies but they were never my cup of tea.   My buddie just blew his head gasket on his little sporty Subie.  No match for the SHO.



But at least his brakes are covered for 3 yrs or 36000 miles :-D-----your SHO is a cool lookin car, hope you have great luck with it.


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> But at least his brakes are covered for 3 yrs or 36000 miles :-D-----your SHO is a cool lookin car, hope you have great luck with it.



Well camp, my next car will likely be an '09 WRX.  So long as my experience with my '04 continues to be happy, as it has been so far.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

Marc said:


> Well camp, my next car will likely be an '09 WRX.  So long as my experience with my '04 continues to be happy, as it has been so far.



Cool---little more juice in the 09 too!!! You mess around with the computer in your 04 at all, or is she stock.


----------



## Glenn (Apr 23, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> A car has to be running hot to blow a headgasket, correct? Or can it happen through normal use? Seems to me people aren't paying attention to the temp gauge.



Sometimes they just go. I had one in my 2.0 VW engine go. Then again, they used a fiber material in the earlier builds of the MKIII run. I replaced it one weekend with a newer metal/rubber/whatever they used version. Held up great, no more issues.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> But at least his brakes are covered for 3 yrs or 36000 miles :-D-----your SHO is a cool lookin car, hope you have great luck with it.



Has a recall ever been considered for head gaskets on Subarus?  I've known or heard of more people having it blow on them, including myself than an other brand.  Not a cheap fix and the #1 reason Subaru is off my radar for future purchases.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Has a recall ever been considered for head gaskets on Subarus?  I've known or heard of more people having it blow on them, including myself than an other brand.  Not a cheap fix and the #1 reason Subaru is off my radar for future purchases.



The h gasket problem is a thing of the past---the reason for the "issue" , as I understand it, was do to the cylinder walls being too thin therefore creaqting too much heat for the headgasket to handle resulting in a leak. Since 05 we/I haven't seen them go anywhere near like they used to. Think now they're good till 200k instead of 70k-80k.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> I haven't had a stick for my last 2 cars...
> I really don't miss it..   I use the Triptonic to downshift on hills and for snow..  I use the sport mode for performance...
> 
> I learned on a manual and took my drivers test with it...  72 Ford Pinto...



+1, except my first car was a 72 Ford Maverick with 3 on the tree.   I almost flunked my driver's test because I was doing it in a driving school car that seemed to have a 2 speed slush-o-matic.   On the test, I was fiddling with the throttle trying to get it to shift into a 3rd gear that probably didn't exist.

My first driving was in a 1957 Willys utility wagon with no synchros.   I learned to double clutch at age 15 on a Vermont learners permit.

The DSG transmission on my MK V VW GTI is way better at shifting than me and my 6 speed on my MK IV GTI.   My biggest gripe is that the engine braking down hills with the 2.0t engine isn't as good as on the old 1.8t.   I have to use 2nd gear and fairly high RPMs going across East Mountain Road and down Bear Mountain Road.   I don't like doing that in the winter when the car isn't fully warmed up so I use 3rd and have to feather the brake for speed control.   I'd have the same problem with a 6 speed and a clutch pedal.


----------



## eatskisleep (Apr 23, 2010)

Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy. Go over to Europe and you'll pay more to special order an automatic than you would to get a standard off the showroom floor.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> The h gasket problem is a thing of the past---the reason for the "issue" , as I understand it, was do to the cylinder walls being too thin therefore creaqting too much heat for the headgasket to handle resulting in a leak. Since 05 we/I haven't seen them go anywhere near like they used to. Think now they're good till 200k instead of 70k-80k.



good to know.  mine was an 04.

200K matters to me.  I just turned 101K on my 3.5 year old Sonata and need to hold it until 200K.  So far zero major issues.  Will see how it does in it's second half of life.  LOVE the new Sonata Turbo outside of no manual trans.  274 HP, mid 5's 0-60 and 34MPG highway and I hear the handling is light years better than the old gen.  pretty impressive.  100K warranty is a big selling point for me as well considering the miles I rack up.


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

eatskisleep said:


> Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy. Go over to Europe and you'll pay more to special order an automatic than you would to get a standard off the showroom floor.



I've always wondered why getting a standard was an option.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

eatskisleep said:


> Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy. Go over to Europe and you'll pay more to special order an automatic than you would to get a standard off the showroom floor.



Well - I'm not lazy I can assure you...  I like my automatic transmission...  

I do miss the old front cranks that people used to start cars back in the day...  Now that was great... 

Also - When I was in Germany last year I went into a VW dealership..  There were automatics on the floor..


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> I've always wondered why getting a standard was an option.



Used to be the other way around


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> Used to be the other way around



Yes, thank you.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> Well - I'm not lazy I can assure you...  I like my automatic transmission...
> 
> I do miss the old front cranks that people used to start cars back in the day...  Now that was great...
> 
> Also - When I was in Germany last year I went into a VW dealership..  There were automatics on the floor..



In past years, the reason people drove manual transmissions in Europe was because they got better fuel economy than slush-o-matics.   Since they tax the heck out of gasoline and diesel, the extra few KPL was a big incentive to go with a manual transmission.   With modern technology, that's no longer the case and the true-ism of a decade ago just ain't the case today.

I wish I had a front crank on my Mountaineer.  Because of the way I've been using the car, I keep killing the battery.  That then shortens battery life so my 18 month-old replacement battery no longer holds much of a charge.   I have the same problem with boat batteries.


----------



## Glenn (Apr 23, 2010)

Geoff said:


> In past years, the reason people drove manual transmissions in Europe was because they got better fuel economy than slush-o-matics.   Since they tax the heck out of gasoline and diesel, the extra few KPL was a big incentive to go with a manual transmission.   With modern technology, that's no longer the case and the true-ism of a decade ago just ain't the case today.
> 
> I wish I had a front crank on my Mountaineer.  Because of the way I've been using the car, I keep killing the battery.  That then shortens battery life so my 18 month-old replacement battery no longer holds much of a charge.   I have the same problem with boat batteries.




What keeps killing the battery on the Mountaineer?


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Cool---little more juice in the 09 too!!! You mess around with the computer in your 04 at all, or is she stock.



Stock stock.  Enough power for me the way it is, and I like the gas mileage I get.


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

My only real complaint about the car is the crappy turbo lag, but that comes with the territory.


----------



## severine (Apr 23, 2010)

eatskisleep said:


> Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy. Go over to Europe and you'll pay more to special order an automatic than you would to get a standard off the showroom floor.



Last time I checked, you pay more here for automatic, too. At least that was the case when I last priced out a VW Eos...


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## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

eatskisleep said:


> Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy. Go over to Europe and you'll pay more to special order an automatic than you would to get a standard off the showroom floor.



We, as a country, suck at driving currently.  To drive a standard means to have some basic level of understanding of how a drive train works.  Too complicated for us.  We need 2 pedals.  One goes, one stops.  Anything more complicated than that and we'd have to sacrifice attention devoted to steering the wheel.

/ranting
//very few people know how to heel-toe, double clutch, etc.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> good to know.  mine was an 04.
> 
> 200K matters to me.  I just turned 101K on my 3.5 year old Sonata and need to hold it until 200K.  So far zero major issues.  Will see how it does in it's second half of life.  LOVE the new Sonata Turbo outside of no manual trans.  274 HP, mid 5's 0-60 and 34MPG highway and I hear the handling is light years better than the old gen.  pretty impressive.  100K warranty is a big selling point for me as well considering the miles I rack up.



Hyundai is STARTING to get into the game----they're back into leasing which is key, or at least it is for me. I wouldn't even think of buying a car that ALG wont put a residual value on. We used to have a Hyundai dealership in our "fold" (sold it last year), so I have had enough contact with the product to know they seem to have their act together.


----------



## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

Marc said:


> We, as a country, suck at driving currently.  To drive a standard means to have some basic level of understanding of how a drive train works.  Too complicated for us.  We need 2 pedals.  One goes, one stops.  Anything more complicated than that and we'd have to sacrifice attention devoted to steering the wheel.
> 
> /ranting
> //very few people know how to heel-toe, double clutch, etc.




Compared to who?   As a country we put more miles on our cars than anyone else by far.  I would say we are probably better drivers as a whole.  

Standard transmissions are a PITA and for the car driver have no advantage anymore.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

Glenn said:


> What keeps killing the battery on the Mountaineer?



I only drive it 2 miles up the hill to my parking spot and 2 miles back down the hill to my condo.  I don't use the car at all in the summer and the battery goes dead because I'm too stoooopd to disconnect the battery cable.  I'm constantly running the battery down.   That shortens the life of the battery.   I'm probably also abusing it with the battery charger.

No big deal.   I just show up at the auto parts store in West Leb and swap in a new battery in the parking lot.   Takes 5 minutes.   I do the same with boat batteries.   It's not like they're expensive if you turn in the dead one for recycling.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

Marc said:


> We, as a country, suck at driving currently.  To drive a standard means to have some basic level of understanding of how a drive train works.  Too complicated for us.  We need 2 pedals.  One goes, one stops.  Anything more complicated than that and we'd have to sacrifice attention devoted to steering the wheel.
> 
> /ranting
> //very few people know how to heel-toe, double clutch, etc.



I also miss rotary phones...  Now that was a way to dial... 

Dude... You gotta drive in Asia sometime...


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Compared to who?   As a country we put more miles on our cars than anyone else by far.  I would say we are probably better drivers as a whole.



Most any other country that actually has a driving culture associated with it.  Any of the countries in which open wheel road racing is popular, which includes most of Europe, SE Asia/Oceana etc.  Take Great Britian as a prime example.  Think a show like Top Gear would ever be universally popular here like it is there?



tjf67 said:


> Standard transmissions are a PITA and for the car driver have no advantage anymore.



The first is your opinion, I find them to be just the opposite of a pain in the ass.  The second is patently false.  Fuel mileage, handling and control, low traction situations, serviceability, driver enjoyment, accident avoidance... there's a long list of advantages.

I hate slush boxes.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Hyundai is STARTING to get into the game----they're back into leasing which is key, or at least it is for me. I wouldn't even think of buying a car that ALG wont put a residual value on. We used to have a Hyundai dealership in our "fold" (sold it last year), so I have had enough contact with the product to know they seem to have their act together.



definitely a recent phenomenon, so I agree with 'starting'.  

new Sonata sets the bar in the family sedan category in terms of performance numbers out of the gate, but lets see how it does after a couple years.  Genesis is a great value as well.  Elantra Touring apparently is quite comparable to Mazda3 in performance, though I haven't driven it.


----------



## Marc (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> I also miss rotary phones...  Now that was a way to dial...
> 
> Dude... You gotta drive in Asia sometime...



NO.  I've been to several cities in China (Shang hai, Nanjing, Beijing, Wenzhou, Yuhuan, Dalian off the top of my head) and it's a free for all, more or less.  The driving is much, much worse there, that's very true.


----------



## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

Marc said:


> Most any other country that actually has a driving culture associated with it.  Any of the countries in which open wheel road racing is popular, which includes most of Europe, SE Asia/Oceana etc.  Take Great Britian as a prime example.  Think a show like Top Gear would ever be universally popular here like it is there?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure what Top Gear has to do with being a better driver.  

I dont think you get better MPH anymore. You do have the ability to shift down with an automatic last I checked.   I have never had a problem with an automatic transmission.  Can't say the same for a manual.  Accident avoidance? really? whooee.  Personal enjoyment.  Tell me that the next time you are stuck in traffic for an hour. But hey thats why you can still buy them.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

Marc said:


> NO.  I've been to several cities in China (Shang hai, Nanjing, Beijing, Wenzhou, Yuhuan, Dalian off the top of my head) and it's a free for all, more or less.  The driving is much, much worse there, that's very true.



India was the worst...
Taiwan was bad cause of the millions of scooters...


----------



## WJenness (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Not sure what Top Gear has to do with being a better driver.



The fact that Top Gear has been a successful show in the UK shows that there is a higher interest in cars and motoring than there is here. Sure, people here watch a lot of NASCAR, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with cars you can go out and buy. Top Gear does.



> I dont think you get better MPH anymore.



I assume you mean MPG and not MPH... Some cars are rated higher with a manual, some aren't... Real world, I can't really say.



> You do have the ability to shift down with an automatic last I checked.



True. No argument there.



> I have never had a problem with an automatic transmission.  Can't say the same for a manual.



Pure anecdotal evidence... I go just the other way, never had a problem with a Manual Tranny, several problems with Autos (One Chrysler, One GM, if you're curious).



> Accident avoidance? really? whooee.



Not sure if you don't think it's a big deal, or don't think it's true... either way, that's your opinion... whatever.



> Personal enjoyment.  Tell me that the next time you are stuck in traffic for an hour. But hey thats why you can still buy them.



I drive in stop and go traffic every day on my way to work. I'm much happier with a stick than I ever was with an auto.

I hope you enjoy the SHO, I was going to look at it until I saw you couldn't get it in a Manual... 

It's a similar design to the Audi S4 (2000-2002 generation), V6 with Twin Turbos, and I really like the idea of that setup. However, driving an 8 / 10 year old car that has likely been beat on was not that appealing.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. That's why there are so many car companies out there.

-w


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> India was the worst...
> Taiwan was bad cause of the millions of scooters...



There are places in Europe where driving skill isn't very good.   Belgium is a big contrast to Germany.   Germany has pretty rigerous driver training.  Belgium is more like the US and 30 years ago didn't even have a drivers test to get a license.


----------



## WJenness (Apr 23, 2010)

Geoff said:


> There are places in Europe where driving skill isn't very good.   Belgium is a big contrast to Germany.   Germany has pretty rigerous driver training.  Belgium is more like the US and 30 years ago didn't even have a drivers test to get a license.



But they make good chocolate!

-w


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

WJenness said:


> But they make good chocolate!
> 
> -w



mmmm... 
Germans make some good chocolate too...

I like Milka...


----------



## marcski (Apr 23, 2010)

eatskisleep said:


> Manual is still more popular in pretty much everplace but the US; we are just lazy.



When I said basically the same thing in the 3rd post in this thread, Rivercoil "yelled" at me.


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Not sure what Top Gear has to do with being a better driver.
> 
> I dont think you get better MPH anymore. You do have the ability to shift down with an automatic last I checked.   I have never had a problem with an automatic transmission.  Can't say the same for a manual.  Accident avoidance? really? whooee.  Personal enjoyment.  Tell me that the next time you are stuck in traffic for an hour. But hey thats why you can still buy them.



Downshift an automatic? What, from D to 2?

As for being stuck in traffic, I believe that if more people drove manuals, traffic wouldn't be so bad, because people could slow down some way other than slamming on their brakes. I can drive in traffic that bounces from 0 to 40 for MPH without ever touching the brakes, and still manage to keep the lane-swapping moron from cutting in front of me just as the lane he left speeds up. Automatics just don't slow down when you let off the gas. I've been driving standards for so long, when I do get in an automatic I have a brief moment of panic when the car doesn't slow down when I lift my foot, adn then I just get annoyed with it.

If you can't handle the "work" involved in operating a clutch pedal in traffic, then I'm not sure what I can do for you. Maybe the greeter at Walmart can pull a motorized scooter up to your car for you. And I mean "you" in the general, everyone-who-hates-manuals-because-they're-too-much-work sense of the word, not necessarily you personally.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Downshift an automatic? What, from D to 2?



Tiptronic...  go from 6th down to 1st..    
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumatic

I use it all the time.  When I go down the mountain road I shift down to 3rd and sometimes 2nd to break my speed..   It's great to have in the snow as well..

But mostly I just let it stay in automatic..  

On the way  back up the road I use the sport setting...


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Automatics just don't slow down when you let off the gas.



Really??? Well they certainly don't speed up, and my speedo goes down so doesn't that mean they are slowing down???


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Really??? Well they certainly don't speed up, and my speedo goes down so doesn't that mean they are slowing down???



It really depends on the car and I guess torque(?) or something....   haha..  I'm not real car guy... 

My VW slows down when I take my foot off the gas.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> It really depends on the car and I guess torque(?) or something....   haha..  I'm not real car guy...
> 
> My VW slows down when I take my foot off the gas.



LOL---stick with the computer stuff, and traveling.


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Really??? Well they certainly don't speed up, and my speedo goes down so doesn't that mean they are slowing down???



Fine- they don't slow down at any rate that's useful in traffic.


----------



## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Fine- they don't slow down at any rate that's useful in traffic.



when you take an automatic and down shift it slows down just like a manual.  Ask the greeter at Walmart they will be able to explain it to you


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Fine- they don't slow down at any rate that's useful in traffic.



With the tiptronic I think they do----anyway, in a "panic" stop everyone is going to slam on there brakes, no time to be messing around down shifting no matter what kinda tranny you have----just sayin'


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> when you take an automatic and down shift it slows down just like a manual.  *Ask the greeter at Walmart they will be able to explain it to you*



That's good stuff-----well, comin from a dude who drives a Ford it is.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> LOL---stick with the computer stuff, and traveling.



My car has more power then my girls...  I back off the gas on her car and it doesn't really slow down - mine does..  

Difference between a VW and a Pontiac I guess..


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> With the tiptronic I think they do



I downshift the tiptronic when coming up to tolls or whatever...


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> With the tiptronic I think they do----anyway, in a "panic" stop everyone is going to slam on there brakes, no time to be messing around down shifting no matter what kinda tranny you have----just sayin'



That's the trouble- panic stops are really just the result of a series of overly aggressive braking maneuvers. Not all to be blamed on automatics, obviously, but if more people could slow down effectively without flashing brakelights, then teh next person back won't hit their brakes a little too hard, which causes the person behind to hit the brakes probably a little too hard, etc etc etc. I see it every day on my way home. One car taps their brakes, causing the person who's following too close to hit their brakes, causing the next car to jam their brakes, causing the next car to stop. All of that starting and stopping is inefficient adn dangerous. I bet in stop adn go traffic, a properly driven manual is much more fuel efficient. 

In the end, if people paid a little more attention to their driving, a lot of the traffic jams wouldn't be so bad, and automatics make it a little bit easier to pay a little bit less attention, for the population as a whole. But, I think there are a whole bunch of things that would be a bit better if people paid a little more attention, but there are a lot of things that make it just a little bit easier to not pay a little more attention.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> when you take an automatic and down shift it slows down just like a manual.  Ask the greeter at Walmart they will be able to explain it to you



He's not supposed to ask those kinds of questions from his boss.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 23, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> That's the trouble- panic stops are really just the result of a series of overly aggressive braking maneuvers. Not all to be blamed on automatics, obviously, but if more people could slow down effectively without flashing brakelights, then teh next person back won't hit their brakes a little too hard, which causes the person behind to hit the brakes probably a little too hard, etc etc etc. I see it every day on my way home.



Life must suck if you have to live with that every day.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> My car has more power then my girls...  I back off the gas on her car and it doesn't really slow down - mine does..
> 
> Difference between a VW and a Pontiac I guess..


Depends on whether the torque converter lockout disengages or not. Every auto I've driven, lift throttle and it disengages and just coasts down. Which is how every one I've driven works. Also, a lot of slushboxes with gear select will still override you in certain situations.

Again, slushboxes=bad. Non-sequential manuals = ok. Automated sequential transmissions = good.


----------



## dmc (Apr 23, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Again, slushboxes=bad. Non-sequential manuals = ok. Automated sequential transmissions = good.



I have Tiptronic...  Which one is it?


----------



## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> That's good stuff-----well, comin from a dude who drives a Ford it is.



Oh no you didn't..... Subie'!


----------



## tjf67 (Apr 23, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Depends on whether the torque converter lockout disengages or not. Every auto I've driven, lift throttle and it disengages and just coasts down. Which is how every one I've driven works. Also, a lot of slushboxes with gear select will still override you in certain situations.
> 
> Again, slushboxes=bad. Non-sequential manuals = ok. Automated sequential transmissions = good.



I don't know what a slushbox is but the bottom/line is if you have an automatic and down shift the engine slows you down.  If you are putting. 3k RPM against a manual or auto it slows down the same all things being equal.  Down shift with a manual in shit conditions and you loose more control than a soccor mom jumping on the breaks and using the ABS.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I don't know what a slushbox is but the bottom/line is if you have an automatic and down shift the engine slows you down.  If you are putting. 3k RPM against a manual or auto it slows down the same all things being equal.  Down shift with a manual in shit conditions and you loose more control than a soccor mom jumping on the breaks and using the ABS.



A slushbox is a conventional automatic transmission.

I agree.  If you use that PRNDL thingie on the steering column or center console, you have acceptable speed control with a slush-o-matic.   I do it every day coming down the hill at KMart with my Mountaineer.  I don't have the 6 gears of the electronic sequential gearshift on my GTI to dial in the amount of engine braking I want but it achieves what I want.... to stay at the speed limit as I drive by the speed trap on the Access Road after a couple of parking lot beers without chewing through my brake pads.

On black ice, I think you have a little more control with a manual transmission.  The objective is to avoid any sudden inputs and you can do that with a clutch and proper use of the throttle.   It's tougher to do that in an automatic since it shifts when it wants to, not when you want it to even if you are telling it what gear to use.   I can do it in my GTI with the paddle shifters but it's not something that's internalized like if I'm doing it on a 6 speed manual transmission.   When I know I'm on black ice, I try not to touch either the gas or the brake and just let the car gradually slow.   As my Blizzaks wore out last winter, I got to experience what everybody else goes through a couple of times.   I'd kind of forgotten.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 24, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> That's the trouble- panic stops are really just the result of a series of overly aggressive braking maneuvers. Not all to be blamed on automatics, obviously, but if more people could slow down effectively without flashing brakelights, then teh next person back won't hit their brakes a little too hard, which causes the person behind to hit the brakes probably a little too hard, etc etc etc. I see it every day on my way home. One car taps their brakes, causing the person who's following too close to hit their brakes, causing the next car to jam their brakes, causing the next car to stop. All of that starting and stopping is inefficient adn dangerous. I bet in stop adn go traffic, a properly driven manual is much more fuel efficient.
> 
> In the end, if people paid a little more attention to their driving, a lot of the traffic jams wouldn't be so bad, and automatics make it a little bit easier to pay a little bit less attention, for the population as a whole. But, I think there are a whole bunch of things that would be a bit better if people paid a little more attention, but there are a lot of things that make it just a little bit easier to not pay a little more attention.



I don't think the tranny has anything to do with peeps not paying attention to their driving. I believe it's the cell phones, gps, ipod, cd, etc, etc......


----------



## Philpug (Apr 24, 2010)

My 2010 Jetta is a stick.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 24, 2010)

I just noticed this thread, and Ill admit, have yet to read all 18 pages.

However, as a driving enthusiast (fixed/restored three e30 series BMW's through high school and college) prefer the manual as well. 

This being said, the manual transmission will never die in America. Bold statement I know, but there is a large enough contingent of die hard manual users in this country that there will always be a market. The euros actually arent all that nuts over manuals as you might think, most companies (from  Renault to Ferrari think SMG, or the paddle shifters for you non car guys) are the wave of the future. Sure, you can shift as fast as Shumi with em, but theres no skill involved. 

I heard a statistic that something like 92% of all vehicles sold in the US are an automatic of some form; however, those remaining 8% arent switching anytime soon. In a country as large and as economically strong as ours, thats a large market, and companies will continue to cater to it for a long time.


Ok, managed to skim through everything and most of my points were already made. 


However, if you think its tough to find a manual in a car, try the truck market. There isnt a single half ton out there with a manual even an option. 

And Deadhead, it may not get 30mpg, but I do average 23 in my Nissan Frontier Crew Cab with the 6speed stick, 0-60 right around 7 as well with a few tweaks. Its by far the best car Ive ever owned, and Im with you that Subies are complete garbage. My girlfriends Forester is a rattle can, their clutch feel is pretty much non-existant, and its really not even that great in the snow. I had to pull her out of the driveway 7 times this winter, albeit in 400" of snow, and that was a bad year.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Apr 24, 2010)

After getting a motorcycle a few weeks ago, I am loving shifting again.  Drove my truck last night for the first time, and was extremely bored.


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## ERJ-145CA (Apr 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> If you are putting. 3k RPM against a manual or auto it slows down the same all things being equal.  Down shift with a manual in shit conditions and you loose more control than a soccor mom jumping on the breaks and using the ABS.



I've always driven an auto but I'm lazy and it's easier to smoke and drive without having to shift gears.  I do however know when to downshift in shitty conditions apparently some people don't.  The greatest thing I ever saw was one day when it was snowing and I was going up the hill.  There was this Benz coming down the hill and every couple of seconds it would start sliding and turning sideways then straighten out and repeat the whole sliding maneuver again.  I said to my wife "look at this idiot keep hitting the brakes instead of downshifting."

There was a huge line of cars behind her too, I can only imagine the snail like speed she must have been driving on the level part of the road.  I would have been crazy if I was right behind her going down that hill.


----------



## Philpug (Apr 25, 2010)

Manual transmissions are going the way of the "sandwich construction" skis, they will all be replaced by caps skis. The Cap skis are better technology.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 25, 2010)

Philpug said:


> Manual transmissions are going the way of the "sandwich construction" skis, they will all be replaced by caps skis. The Cap skis are better technology.



Better technology != A better experience..


----------



## dmc (Apr 25, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Better technology != A better experience..



Not equal...??

So I have a pair of old wooden skis with bear trap bindings and leather boots...

Would you like to take them out on a pow day?
Or would you rather take out your brand new lightweight, torsionally stiff, fat skis?


----------



## marcski (Apr 25, 2010)

dmc said:


> Not equal...??
> 
> So I have a pair of old wooden skis with bear trap bindings and leather boots...
> 
> ...



Depends who you ask....Glenn Plake might take the old wooden skis for a spin!


----------



## Philpug (Apr 25, 2010)

I have driven a Ferrari/Maserti F1 tranny and it is truly special but I would rather drive a really good stick, like from a S2000 or Miata. There is something about a 5 to 3 downshift that is feels right in a manual tranny.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 25, 2010)

dmc said:


> Not equal...??
> 
> So I have a pair of old wooden skis with bear trap bindings and leather boots...
> 
> ...



Not for me, but I'm sure there are those that are into that sort of thing.  I'm into driving a car with a clutch...

Besides I was replying to the sandwich vs. cap ski construction argument.  My favorite skis are sandwich construction..


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 25, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Not for me, but I'm sure there are those that are into that sort of thing.  I'm into driving a car with a clutch...
> 
> Besides I was replying to the sandwich vs. cap ski construction argument.  My favorite skis are sandwich construction..



I think Phil was being facetious about the cap vs. sandwich. A lot of skis are trending back to sandwich construction these days.


----------



## Philpug (Apr 25, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> I think Phil was being facetious about the cap vs. sandwich. A lot of skis are trending back to sandwich construction these days.



Thank You.


----------



## dmc (Apr 25, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> I think Phil was being facetious about the cap vs. sandwich. A lot of skis are trending back to sandwich construction these days.



I was around for the initial cap thing...  Didn't like it...


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## Marc (Apr 26, 2010)

dmc said:


> I have Tiptronic...  Which one is it?



Yours is an automatic transmission (based around a torque converter and planetary gearset(s)), the one that lots of manual transmission fans don't like driving.  

/I didn't see where anyone answered your question


----------



## dmc (Apr 26, 2010)

Marc said:


> Yours is an automatic transmission (based around a torque converter and planetary gearset(s)), the one that lots of manual transmission fans don't like driving.
> 
> /I didn't see where anyone answered your question





> Again, slushboxes=bad. Non-sequential manuals = ok. Automated sequential transmissions = good.



No you did not answer my question as to what type of automatic transmission I have on my VW...


----------



## Marc (Apr 26, 2010)

dmc said:


> No you did not answer my question as to what type of automatic transmission I have on my VW...



slushbox = automatic transmission, I was just avoiding using "slush box" out of courtesy towards you because it is a term of automotive derision.

Mondeo didn't list 3 types of automatic transmissions, his list was of his transmission preference in general (I think).

An automated (and non automated) sequential tranmission is a type of conventional manual transmission with a clutch and a typically linear arrangment of constantly meshed gears.  It's understandable to read "automated sequential tranmission" and think of what you have in your VW, because in the grammatical sense, it's correct.  In the automotive sense, however, a sequential transmission refers to a very specific pairing of a conventionally arranged "manual" transmission with a rotating drum arrangment controlling the shifts so the gear changes can only be made linearly (1 to 2, 2 to 3, 5 to 4, etc) where in a conventional H-shift manual transmission one can select (but not necessarily execute without breaking stuff) any gear from any other gear.

The family of automatic transmissions, of which yours is a member, uses a torque converter rather than a clutch to decouple the transmisison from the engine.  A torque converter is (without getting into a detailed description) basically a fluid based decoupling/coupling system.  The internal design and the viscousity of the fluid used determines the difference in speed between the input (engine) and the output (transmission) at which the output begins being driven to the same speed as the input, called the stall speed of the torque converter, usually expressed in revolutions per minute.  The biggest drawbacks to this device are that it wastes energy from the engine in the form of heat dissipated into the fluid whereas a two plate clutch used for manual transmissions is much closer to lossless once fully engaged (provided it's not worn and slipping).  Also a torque convert decouples the engine and tranmssion at the design stall speed, rather than allowing the driver to control this like is possible with a manually actuated clutch.  This is why you can stop a car with an automatic tranmission while still leaving it in gear and the engine won't stall.  The torque converter starts slipping.

Ok, that was longer than I intended, sorry about that.  I didn't even get into the difference bewteen linearly arranged constantly meshed gears (manual transmissions) and planetary gearset (automatic transmissions).


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 26, 2010)

Marc said:


> slushbox = automatic transmission, I was just avoiding using "slush box" out of courtesy towards you because it is a term of automotive derision.
> 
> Mondeo didn't list 3 types of automatic transmissions, his list was of his transmission preference in general (I think).
> 
> ...



Thanks for that----my head hurts now  :smile:


----------



## hammer (Apr 26, 2010)

Marc said:


> slushbox = automatic transmission, I was just avoiding using "slush box" out of courtesy towards you because it is a term of automotive derision.
> 
> Mondeo didn't list 3 types of automatic transmissions, his list was of his transmission preference in general (I think).
> 
> ...


Forgot to discuss how a lockup torque converter works...;-)


----------



## dmc (Apr 26, 2010)

i was thinking of you guys when I was flipping through my gears on my tiptronic setup today...


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> i was thinking of you guys when I was flipping through my gears on my tiptronic setup today...



lol---me too---I'm currently driving a 08 Acura RDX Turbo---fun little thing


----------



## hammer (Apr 28, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> lol---me too---I'm currently driving a 08 Acura RDX Turbo---fun little thing


Test drove a CPO one last summer...nice small SUV, definitely a step up from a RAV4 or CRV.  Main thing I remember was that the turbo sound was pretty noticeable.


----------



## Marc (Apr 28, 2010)

I wasn't thinking of anyone else as I was throwing the rex around a smooth uphill corner heel-toeing it 3 - 2 at around 6k.

Man is that fun.  There's nothing like the feel of a perfect rev match.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I wasn't thinking of anyone else as I was throwing the rex around a smooth uphill corner heel-toeing it 3 - 2 at around 6k.
> 
> Man is that fun.  There's nothing like the feel of a perfect rev match.



Oooo yeah!  Love that feeling.

I was thinking of the lazy people in this thread when I dropped it down into 4th to execute a pass on the highway this morning, releasing the clutch when the RPMs were at just the right spot and then just kept accelerating.


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I wasn't thinking of anyone else as I was throwing the rex around a smooth uphill corner heel-toeing it 3 - 2 at around 6k.
> 
> Man is that fun.  There's nothing like the feel of a perfect rev match.



I'm with you, there. That combo on the 90 degree flat right hand off the island I live on is just too much fun. Of course, I rev a bit lower, more like 5K, but I do love the sound as the V6 bounces in the 5-6 range. 

And then I realize I forgot to turn off the nanny drive, and the back end stops sliding about 20 degrees short of where I wanted it to go.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 28, 2010)

hammer said:


> Test drove a CPO one last summer...nice small SUV, definitely a step up from a RAV4 or CRV.  Main thing I remember was that the turbo sound was pretty noticeable.



Yup---CRV on roids---VERY small tho, but fun for a few days.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I wasn't thinking of anyone else as I was throwing the rex around a smooth uphill corner heel-toeing it 3 - 2 at around 6k.
> 
> Man is that fun.  There's nothing like the feel of a perfect rev match.



that 3-2 is fun


----------



## WJenness (Apr 28, 2010)

I enjoyed several nice 6 -> 4 down shifts this morning coming in to highway ramps...

Had to chuckle as the fool behind me in the Jeep Grand Cherokee tried to hold my bumper and then when the flat (almost no camber) entrance ramp got tight, he just disappeared from my mirror.

-w


----------



## Marc (Apr 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> I enjoyed several nice 6 -> 4 down shifts this morning coming in to highway ramps...
> 
> Had to chuckle as the fool behind me in the Jeep Grand Cherokee tried to hold my bumper and then when the flat (almost no camber) entrance ramp got tight, he just disappeared from my mirror.
> 
> -w



I love entrance ramps. They're tricky to get right since they're usually diminshing radius, sometimes slightly off camber.  It takes a lot of practice to get the apex, usually only possible on one you know well.


----------



## WJenness (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I love entrance ramps. They're tricky to get right since they're usually diminshing radius, sometimes slightly off camber.  It takes a lot of practice to get the apex, usually only possible on one you know well.



Agreed... The first (at least) two or three trips through entrance ramps for me are always recon missions... After that, it becomes a challenge to see how 'correctly' I can drive them.

I get sad when there's a car in front of me... Even more so when it's one that has much more potential than what the driver actually does with it. See: M3 puttering around a fairly wide open entrance ramp at 25 yesterday morning (Posted advisory speed of 45).

-w


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## ctenidae (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I love entrance ramps. They're tricky to get right since they're usually diminshing radius, sometimes slightly off camber.  It takes a lot of practice to get the apex, usually only possible on one you know well.



Exit ramps are fun that way, too, depending on where they are.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I love entrance ramps. They're tricky to get right since they're usually diminshing radius, sometimes slightly off camber.  It takes a lot of practice to get the apex, usually only possible on one you know well.





WJenness said:


> Agreed... The first (at least) two or three trips through entrance ramps for me are always recon missions... After that, it becomes a challenge to see how 'correctly' I can drive them.
> 
> I get sad when there's a car in front of me... Even more so when it's one that has much more potential than what the driver actually does with it. See: M3 puttering around a fairly wide open entrance ramp at 25 yesterday morning (Posted advisory speed of 45).
> 
> -w



You two need to come to Subie meetings w/me---STI, proffesional drives and a race track = WAY fun.


----------



## WJenness (Apr 28, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> You two need to come to Subie meetings w/me---STI, proffesional drives and a race track = WAY fun.



I'd love to 

Just send me an invite...

-w


----------



## Marc (Apr 28, 2010)

Yes.  I would love to wreck... I mean, drive someone else's STI.

/I never wreck


----------



## bvibert (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> Yes.  I would love to wreck... I mean, drive someone else's STI.
> 
> /I never wreck



Same here!


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> I'd love to
> 
> Just send me an invite...
> 
> -w





Marc said:


> Yes.  I would love to wreck... I mean, drive someone else's STI.
> 
> /I never wreck





bvibert said:


> Same here!



Hey I want in on this too.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> I love entrance ramps. They're tricky to get right since they're usually diminshing radius, sometimes slightly off camber.  It takes a lot of practice to get the apex, usually only possible on one you know well.





WJenness said:


> Agreed... The first (at least) two or three trips through entrance ramps for me are always recon missions... After that, it becomes a challenge to see how 'correctly' I can drive them.
> 
> I get sad when there's a car in front of me... Even more so when it's one that has much more potential than what the driver actually does with it. See: M3 puttering around a fairly wide open entrance ramp at 25 yesterday morning (Posted advisory speed of 45).
> 
> -w





ctenidae said:


> Exit ramps are fun that way, too, depending on where they are.



Love entrance and exit ramps, when they're empty.  Nothing irritates me more than an idiot who putz's up an entrance ramp and doesn't start accelerating until they're actually on the highway, same for those who start to slow down before they've made it onto the exit ramp.  :smash:


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## WJenness (Apr 28, 2010)

Entrance and exit ramps are fun and all...

But very little highway driving that I've done compares to The Merritt Parkway at night...

Kanc is a lot of fun too, but there are ALWAYS people in front of you.

-w


----------



## ctenidae (Apr 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Entrance and exit ramps are fun and all...
> 
> But very little highway driving that I've done compares to The Merritt Parkway at night...
> 
> ...



The Merritt late at night is fantastic. Though, some of the ramps are absolutely brutal. The exit for Route 7 (forget the number) is terrible, a rapidly decreasiing radius with gravel and a very short straight at the end to a stop sign. Fun, though.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 28, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Love entrance and exit ramps, when they're empty.  Nothing irritates me more than an idiot who putz's up an entrance ramp and doesn't start accelerating until they're actually on the highway, same for those who start to slow down before they've made it onto the exit ramp.  :smash:



I respect my brake pads.   I usually disable the cruise control before the extra lane on the right for the off ramp starts.   I'm at the speed limit when I change lanes to the off-ramp and engine brake from there.   I'll often have some tool in a massive full size SUV or pickup on my bumper.  What kind of car do you drive?

Unless I'm in the SUV towing my boat where it just ain't possible, I'm at highway speed on the on ramp.   You should try towing 30 feet of boat and trailer in the right lane some time.   That YIELD sign seems to mean "Change lanes at whatever speed you want without looking in your mirror".   I once had somebody hit my trailer when they braked and pulled out behind me only to discover there was a boat occupying that space.   No damage to the trailer but the fender laid a wonderful scratch down the side of the moron's car.


----------



## o3jeff (Apr 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Entrance and exit ramps are fun and all...
> 
> But very little highway driving that I've done compares to The Merritt Parkway at night...
> 
> ...



You need to try the Sawmill Parkway between NYC and 684 in Brewster, NY. Narrower lanes and a lot more turns, just watch out there a a couple traffic light in the middle.


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## Marc (Apr 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Entrance and exit ramps are fun and all...
> 
> But very little highway driving that I've done compares to The Merritt Parkway at night...
> 
> ...



Funny, I bought my S4 in NJ and came back on the Merritt at night.  That was the last time I was down there but was it ever a memorable drive.


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## bvibert (Apr 28, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I respect my brake pads.   I usually disable the cruise control before the extra lane on the right for the off ramp starts.   I'm at the speed limit when I change lanes to the off-ramp and engine brake from there.   I'll often have some tool in a massive full size SUV or pickup on my bumper.  What kind of car do you drive?
> 
> Unless I'm in the SUV towing my boat where it just ain't possible, I'm at highway speed on the on ramp.   You should try towing 30 feet of boat and trailer in the right lane some time.   That YIELD sign seems to mean "Change lanes at whatever speed you want without looking in your mirror".   I once had somebody hit my trailer when they braked and pulled out behind me only to discover there was a boat occupying that space.   No damage to the trailer but the fender laid a wonderful scratch down the side of the moron's car.



I drive neither.  Going the speed limit while pulling onto the off ramp is fine, I'm talking about the people who slow down to below the speed limit while still in the right travel lane (or left lane if it's a left exit, I hate left exits!).  Trucks or vehicles with something in tow that can't possibly get up to speed on the on-ramp are excused from my rant.


----------



## Geoff (Apr 28, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I drive neither.  Going the speed limit while pulling onto the off ramp is fine, I'm talking about the people who slow down to below the speed limit while still in the right travel lane (or left lane if it's a left exit, I hate left exits!).  Trucks or vehicles with something in tow that can't possibly get up to speed on the on-ramp are excused from my rant.



Yeah, well...   In a universe where people routinely go speed limit + 20 in the right lane (the eastern half of Massholia, for instance), getting off the throttle to drift down to the speed limit occasionally produces some anxious moments when you're driving a 3,000 pound econobox.   You look in the mirror and see nothing but grill.   I'm often tempted to launch a beer bottle in self defense.

When I started towing a boat around, I became a lot more polite around truckers.   I had no appreciation for the challenges they face with a long rig and lousy acceleration and braking.


----------



## bvibert (Apr 28, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Yeah, well...   In a universe where people routinely go speed limit + 20 in the right lane (the eastern half of Massholia, for instance), getting off the throttle to drift down to the speed limit occasionally produces some anxious moments when you're driving a 3,000 pound econobox.   You look in the mirror and see nothing but grill.   I'm often tempted to launch a beer bottle in self defense.
> 
> When I started towing a boat around, I became a lot more polite around truckers.   I had no appreciation for the challenges they face with a long rig and lousy acceleration and braking.



I wish people went 20 over the limit in the right lane around here, half the time they're barely hitting the speed limit in the left lane...


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 28, 2010)

Marc said:


> Yes.  I would love to wreck... I mean, drive someone else's STI.
> 
> /I never wreck



Crashing is disouraged but allowed---these cars go to auction when they are done with them, but I would want ZERO to do with them.


----------



## AdironRider (May 2, 2010)

For some reason I have a hard time using my brakes. I like to let the engine do the work. If Im coasting in the right lane you can kindly piss off. Whats the rush to wait at the stop sign or yield. 

I drive a truck now. Its got some real get up and go (just got my new engine tune done from Japan - Nissan Frontier with the 4.0 v6 and the 6 speed stick, Im laying down a cool 340 hp/340 torque these days). But its not stopping or turning any direction quickly. Besides, I live pretty much in an Ansel Adams photograph with no highways, nobody is going anywhere quickly. Most of you guys back east would get some serious roadrage driving around with most of the people out here. I know I hated it at first, now Im turning into one of them. Everytime I go home the natural instinct comes back.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2012)

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/08/02/last-gasp-for-the-stick-shift/?iid=pf-main-lede&hpt=hp_t3

Hope my new Mazda3 ain't the last stick I buy

crazy to me that 95+% of people prefer automatics.  I wonder if at least some percentage of that is people buying models that don't offer manual transmissions yet they would choose the stick over the auto if it were available.  Case in point would be my recent purchase.  If Mazda offered a stick in the AWD model of the CX-5, that would've been the car I purchased.


----------



## wa-loaf (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> http://moneyland.time.com/2012/08/02/last-gasp-for-the-stick-shift/?iid=pf-main-lede&hpt=hp_t3
> 
> Hope my new Mazda3 ain't the last stick I buy
> 
> crazy to me that 95+% of people prefer automatics.  I wonder if at least some percentage of that is people buying models that don't offer manual transmissions yet they would choose the stick over the auto if it were available.  Case in point would be my recent purchase.  If Mazda offered a stick in the AWD model of the CX-5, that would've been the car I purchased.



The Outback is pretty much the only SUVish vehicle that you can still get a stick shift in. I want to replace mine in the next year or so and was starting to consider an auto since there are so many more options. Had an accident a couple months ago and had to drive a rental (Nissan Sentra, what POS!) for about a month. It was partly the car itself, but driving the auto around sucked. Next car will probably be an outback again unless they stop offering manuals too.


----------



## ctenidae (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> If Mazda offered a stick in the AWD model of the CX-5, that would've been the car I purchased.



The choice of my current car was very largely driven by the availability of a 6 speed. Even then, I had to special order it, since there were only 4 slated to be built as manuals for the US market. Near as I can tell, there are maybe a dozen in the country. Probably less.

There are so many traffic snarls that are pretty clearly exacerbated by automatic transmission. Or, more precisely, the driving habits that automatics can reinforce.


----------



## bvibert (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder if at least some percentage of that is people buying models that don't offer manual transmissions yet they would choose the stick over the auto if it were available.



I bet that's true for a significant percentage of the automatic sales.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> The Outback is pretty much the only SUVish vehicle that you can still get a stick shift in. I want to replace mine in the next year or so and was starting to consider an auto since there are so many more options. Had an accident a couple months ago and had to drive a rental (Nissan Sentra, what POS!) for about a month. It was partly the car itself, but driving the auto around sucked. Next car will probably be an outback again unless they stop offering manuals too.



I wonder what the sales split for Subaru is between Automatic and Stick.  Same goes for VW.  It seems like both brands still see meaningful sales in offering MT in many of their models.

You can get a stick in the CX-5, but only in the FWD version of the car.  Quite frankly, I don't really see the point in offering FWD in an SUV or Crossover; I guess the soccer moms are to blame. Most of the reviews I've read on the CX5 all say the same thing.  "Come on Mazda, grow a pair and offer the AWD with a stick.  People would want them."   Rumor has it that they'll be releasing the diesel version of the CX5 in the US next year.  Hopefully Mazda is listening to people bitching and they offer a Diesel with AWD and MT.  That would be a great ride.  I've sent them an email already knowing my wife's car is due for replacement in a couple of years.  :lol: 

You're right though in that the Forester and Outback seem to be the only SUVish type rides out there left where you can get a stick.  I believe you can in an FJ Cruiser and you obviously can in a Wrangler, but I couldn't responsibly afford the mpg hit on either of those vehicles.


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## snowmonster (Aug 2, 2012)

I have a Jeep Patriot and that has a manual transmission. The other car we have is a Mini Clubman. Manual, of course. I feel that you're not really driving unless you've got a stick shift. 

I hear that they're no longer teaching how to drive a stick in drivers' ed. If so, that will really be the end of manual transmission. About a month ago, I had to valet my car. The young man taking the car took a look at the stick shift and said he could not drive that. How can you be a valet and not know how to drive stick?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2012)

I took drivers ed 21 years ago and they didn't require you learn to drive stick then.  At least that was the case in Vermont.


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## Riverskier (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I took drivers ed 21 years ago and they didn't require you learn to drive stick then. At least that was the case in Vermont.



Same here 19 years ago in Maine.

I won't drive anything that is not a stick shift. Luckily I drive sedans, so it isn't as hard to find, yet anyway.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 2, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> I have a Jeep Patriot and that has a manual transmission. The other car we have is a Mini Clubman. Manual, of course. I feel that you're not really driving unless you've got a stick shift.
> 
> I hear that they're no longer teaching how to drive a stick in drivers' ed. If so, that will really be the end of manual transmission. About a month ago, I had to valet my car. The young man taking the car took a look at the stick shift and said he could not drive that. How can you be a valet and not know how to drive stick?



Yeah, learning to drive a stick was never a requirement in drivers ed.


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## hammer (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I took drivers ed 21 years ago and they didn't require you learn to drive stick then.  At least that was the case in Vermont.


When I got my license in NJ 31 years ago (that was hard to type) my own car was a stick but I tested in my parents' automatic.  Don't remember any requirements to be able to drive a stick then.


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## riverc0il (Aug 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Rumor has it that they'll be releasing the diesel version of the CX5 in the US next year.  Hopefully Mazda is listening to people bitching and they offer a Diesel with AWD and MT.  That would be a great ride.  I've sent them an email already knowing my wife's car is due for replacement in a couple of years.  :lol:


Where do you see this rumor? Interestingly enough, I also have a partner due up for a new car soon and she happens to like bigger cars. :lol: I was looking at a new CX5 AWD in the parking lot yesterday thinking it would be a really awesome total package for her if it was diesel. Otherwise, gas mileage isn't terribly great (pretty reasonable for a crossover but not great in general as a gaser).


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## marcski (Aug 2, 2012)

I love my 6 spd MT.  Got it in March.   It had been about 9 years since my daily drive was a MT.  I drive so much that even with 20K/yr on this new lease, I had to keep my last car and have been driving that as well to split up the duty.


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## Nick (Aug 2, 2012)

I also only drive stick with the exception of our new SUV which is auto. My Saab is a six gear stick and I love it. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## darent (Aug 2, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Totally sucks. Seems like there might be a market soon taking european manuals and converting them for the us market.
> 
> Side note: My wife insisted on driving a manual. One of the reasons I fell for her in the first place. No one I've dated so far can even drive a stick. Still looking for a hot, skiing, stick shift driver ...


  I am available, I can shift with the best of them!!


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## darent (Aug 2, 2012)

I think the new subie outbacks aren't available in sticks


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## wa-loaf (Aug 2, 2012)

darent said:


> I am available, I can shift with the best of them!!



Well, my new gf has a VW TDi sport wagon with a six speed so I'm good. But thanks for the offer ... 



darent said:


> I think the new subie outbacks aren't available in sticks



2.5i and 2.5i Premium come with a 6 speed or a CVT. The limited and all the H6's are CVT or 5 Speed Auto.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Where do you see this rumor? Interestingly enough, I also have a partner due up for a new car soon and she happens to like bigger cars. :lol: I was looking at a new CX5 AWD in the parking lot yesterday thinking it would be a really awesome total package for her if it was diesel. Otherwise, gas mileage isn't terribly great (pretty reasonable for a crossover but not great in general as a gaser).



Just google Mazda CX-5 Skyactiv Diesel and you'll find a ton of "insider" auto blog sites discussing what they are "hearing."  As I said, it is just internet rumors at this point.  The primary rumors I've read frequently (not that that means they are more likely)

2014 MY CX-5 arrives early 2013 with a Diesel
2014 MY CX-5 not getting a Diesel, but will have a 2.5L gas option as current 2.0 is under powered.  Instead the first Mazda Diesel in the US will be 2014 MY Mazda6 later in the year

Keep in mind a CX-5 Diesel is already being made and is available in Europe and Japan. Not only is the diesel being made (and I know you don't drive / care as much about sticks as some of us left footers  ) but you can get a 2.2L Diesel CX-5 in Britain with AWD and a stick today.  You can go to Mazda's UK website and configure it. http://www.mazda.co.uk/car-configurator/#/configurator/cx5/  They advertise 52"mpg" combined, but I have to assume they mean kilometers not miles, which would mean 32mpg combined in the US.  Certainly not TDI numbers, but it is AWD, which would be substantially the best combined MPG for an AWD vehicle that size in the US right now.  You hear of some AWD cars and small SUV's getting 31-34 MPG highway, but certainly not combined mileage.

I think Mazda will push this vehicle hard in the US in the coming year.  It's blown away all sales projections internationally so far.  http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...s-to-be-a-global-success-story-153618015.html

I think a competitively priced CX5 AWD Diesel with an Automatic Trans could seriously challenge the CRV and RAV4 for market share in the soccer mom segment - huge volume.

I think a competitively priced CX5 AWD Diesel with a Manual Trans could seriously challenge Outback/Forester/VWTDI in that "niche MT fan" market too.  Much lower volume, but one can hope we get the fun version here in the US in addition to GB and Japan.


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## riverc0il (Aug 3, 2012)

Yea, I am very much aware of the Sky diesel engine. I was very excited for Mazda when I was doing my search. I even drove a Mazda3 gaser to see if it was worth waiting for. But everything I heard said that the diesel was being delayed for the US and we might not even get one. Europe gets SO MUCH GOOD STUFF that we don't get!  So many diesels and great looking wagons over there that never make it here.

Glad to hear they are rumored to be coming. Diesel is a great way to get super performance and economy and the price eventually evens out and turns to the owners favor vs gas if you keep the vehicle for its lifetime. Nearly one year after my purchase of the TDI, I am averaging exactly 40 MPG combined (which is more than its highway EPA, let alone city). Only Prius engine based hybrids can do better than that.

This could be considering hyjacking but not quite... the segment that drive diesels also have a large number of MT fans as well. So I'm all for more MT diesel as that means more AT diesel options for our next vehicle choice.  Especially if the option of a AWD Diesel Wagon/Crossover is available, I'd pay full sticker price for that.

--

Just did a search and noticed this: "173 horsepower and a stump-pulling 310 lb-ft of torque". That would be nice. I bet they won't bring it over with AWD though. I bet they would bring the MT though. Between the diesel and Mazda already being more stick friendly than most, I bet they could have a market segment mostly to themselves. WV doesn't have a small crossover diesel and the Touareg is stupid expensive.​


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

I thought VW was considering bringing over a Tiguan in a diesel?

It does suck that there are so many great cars in Europe and elsewhere that we don't get.  It's unfortunate that much of that is probably to do with differences in emission and safety ratings.  You would think that in today's "global economy" there'd be a way to get some of those cars here for people that want them and are willing to pay a premium to import what they want via special orders.

As for my 3, I'm averaging 36mpg combined after 3K miles.  I drive the car pretty hard and use very few techniques to improve mileage outside of shifting into neutral and coasting for off ramps on the highway (something I wouldn't bother with in an Automatic). About 80% of my driving is highway though and I rarely spend any time in stop and go traffic, so I'd image someone in the city would get more like 32.


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> They advertise 52"mpg" combined, but I have to assume they mean kilometers not miles, which would mean 32mpg combined in the US.



They use miles in the UK, same as here, but that figure probably uses Imperial gallons, which contain more liquid than US gallons.


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I drive the car pretty hard and use very few techniques to improve mileage outside of shifting into neutral and coasting for off ramps on the highway (something I wouldn't bother with in an Automatic).



My VW used to actually shut off the injectors when decelerating in gear (5 speed MT), so it was actually more fuel efficient to leave it in gear.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

Interesting, not sure if that's the case with my 3.  I'm no engineer, I just assumed lower RPMs = less consumption.


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting, not sure if that's the case with my 3.  I'm no engineer, I just assumed lower RPMs = less consumption.



I used to think the same as you, but when you're coasting downhill with the car in gear (MT) the engine will stay spinning as long as the wheels are turning, so there really isn't any need for the engine to be doing anything to keep itself running.  That isn't necessarily true for a traditional AT car if the torque converter isn't locked up, there needs to be a direct connection to the engine.  It all depends on how the engine management is setup as to whether the fuel is shut off or not.

Keeping it in gear has the additional benefit of saving wear and tear on the brakes, as the engine is aiding in slowing the car down.


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## ctenidae (Aug 3, 2012)

With a manual, if you coast in gear you use no gas. At least, with a fuel injected engine you don't. Engine braking is by far the most efficient way to slow down, as much as you possibly can. Remember, every time you touch those brakes, you're doing nothing but turning valuable gasoline into useless heat. 

There's a spot on 95 in Stamford that often comes to a stop. Knowing it's there, I was able to go from 60 to a full stop without ever touching the brakes, and did it at thesame time as the cars in the lane next to me. There's a little rise leading up to the place where traffic stops, so I was able to coast all the way to 0, then used the brakes to keep from rolling back. Couldn't have done that in an automatic.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 3, 2012)

Hell, you can buy min-vans in Europe with manuals!

If Mazda put out a MX5 diesel with MT that would jump to the top of my list! Subaru also needs to bring their damn diesel over for the Outback!

I've always used the engine to break on off ramps and the such. I suppose you can do it with the automanuals too. But it's just not as satisfying.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> With a manual, if you coast in gear you use no gas. At least, with a fuel injected engine you don't. Engine braking is by far the most efficient way to slow down, as much as you possibly can. Remember, every time you touch those brakes, you're doing nothing but turning valuable gasoline into useless heat.
> 
> There's a spot on 95 in Stamford that often comes to a stop. Knowing it's there, I was able to go from 60 to a full stop without ever touching the brakes, and did it at thesame time as the cars in the lane next to me. There's a little rise leading up to the place where traffic stops, so I was able to coast all the way to 0, then used the brakes to keep from rolling back. Couldn't have done that in an automatic.



Basically the same scenario on the few ramps I coast to a stop on around here.  All slightly up hill with stops at the end that if I throw it in neutral, I roll to a stop at the end of the ramp with barely having to touch the breaks and the deceleration is basically the same as if I were downshifting through the gears and using the engine to stop the car.


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## ctenidae (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Basically the same scenario on the few ramps I coast to a stop on around here.  All slightly up hill with stops at the end that if I throw it in neutral, I roll to a stop at the end of the ramp with barely having to touch the breaks and the deceleration is basically the same as if I were downshifting through the gears and using the engine to stop the car.



Difference is, if you keep it in gear you use no gas (if you have a manual)


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## Nick (Aug 3, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> With a manual, if you coast in gear you use no gas. At least, with a fuel injected engine you don't. Engine braking is by far the most efficient way to slow down, as much as you possibly can. Remember, every time you touch those brakes, you're doing nothing but turning valuable gasoline into useless heat.



I remember growing up my dad would brag about his brake pads would last him 100,000 miles because he would use engine breaking so much. 

Also  I remember the same, he would never brake unless he had to. In other words he would coast to decelerate as much as possible, even if it meant getting onto someone else's ass. 

Driving techniques alone can make a huge difference in efficiency. If there is a stop sign or red light ahead and you simply allow yourself to coast to it instead of riding the gas to maintain 1 or 2 mph and then hitting the brakes that makes a difference with a lot of city driving .


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Hell, you can buy min-vans in Europe with manuals!



When I was younger my parents bought a brand new Dodge Caravan (1987, I think), which was a 5 speed stick.  You don't see that around here too much anymore, okay, it wasn't very common back then either. :lol:  It also came with an AM only radio and was devoid of any possible options...


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## Riverskier (Aug 3, 2012)

My last car was a manual Honda Civic I bought new. At 105,000 miles I had the brakes checked for the first time, and they said I had 1/3 of the pad life left. Granted I drive primarily highway and country roads, but a lot of that is attributable to engine braking.


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## ctenidae (Aug 3, 2012)

I learned to drive in a 5 speed 1987 Isuzu Trooper II Turbo Diesel. 85 hp of gut wrenching power, there.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

I learned to drive a stick on the old arcade game "Hard Driving" :lol:

I went to party when I was 15 and the kid who drove ended up getting plastered.  I obviously didn't have a license, but we were 3 miles from his parents house and didn't feel like walking.  Got in his mom's Subaru and drove it back home without stalling.


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## marcski (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I learned to drive a stick on the old arcade game "Hard Driving" :lol:
> 
> I went to party when I was 15 and the kid who drove ended up getting plastered.  I obviously didn't have a license, but we were 3 miles from his parents house and didn't feel like walking.  Got in his mom's Subaru and drove it back home without stalling.



You're a stud! .

I learned on an old Saab 99, 4-spd, with manual steering.  My brother's college ride.  He brought me to a quiet road with a hill.  Put the emergency brake on and put me in the driver's seat.  I found the friction point before hitting anything behind me. .  (I had just got my license).


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh, I'm no Mario Andretti, just a funny way to learn how to drive a stick.  When I was a kid and we went to the mall my mom used to just drop me off at the Arcade while she shopped.  Hard Driving was one of those sit down car games and it had three pedals and a manual mode that was remarkably life like in terms of working the pedals.  I played the game all the time and was amused that once I actually got to drive a car for the first time, it was a stick and it seemed easy.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 3, 2012)

ctenidae said:


> I learned to drive in a 5 speed 1987 Isuzu Trooper II Turbo Diesel. 85 hp of gut wrenching power, there.



1980 VW Rabbit Diesel and a 73 GMC pick-up (3 speeds!).


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2012)

Was the GMC a 3 on the tree?   Buddy of mine had an old pick up with such a stick and man was it weird to drive.


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## ctenidae (Aug 3, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel and a 73 GMC pick-up (3 speeds!).



My buddy had a 3-in-the-tree mid '70s Dodge pickup. Thing was awesome.


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

I learned to drive in a 1990 S10 Blazer with a 5 speed, and a little bit with a Subaru of some sort (also a stick).  Aside from the driver's ed car I was several years into my driving career before I ever drove an automatic.  I even took my driving test with the Blazer.


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## bvibert (Aug 3, 2012)

I always wanted to try driving a 3 om the tree, just to see what it was like.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Was the GMC a 3 on the tree?   Buddy of mine had an old pick up with such a stick and man was it weird to drive.





ctenidae said:


> My buddy had a 3-in-the-tree mid '70s Dodge pickup. Thing was awesome.



This was 3 on the floor. Just an old truck my dad picked up for hauling shit around, but often ended up being the car I was allowed to drive. lol

I drove a couple (borrowed) three on the trees, different but you got used to it pretty quick.


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## xwhaler (Aug 3, 2012)

Nick said:


> I remember growing up my dad would brag about his brake pads would last him 100,000 miles because he would use engine breaking so much. QUOTE]
> 
> :smile:
> I have 105k currently on my Toyota Tacoma 5 spd pickup on the original pads. My mechanic friend who services our vehicles is impressed how much life there still is to them as well. I hardly drive it anymore now with 3 vehicles but it was my daily highway commuter for 3+ yrs and lots of ski trips on wknds.
> Downshifting and letting the engine do the braking is definately key.


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## bigbog (Aug 3, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Life must suck if you have to live with that every day.



...And in the NE there are more drivers that _absolutely LUV_ to ride a slower vehicle's(in their mind) bumper....


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## jaja111 (Aug 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought VW was considering bringing over a Tiguan in a diesel?



Its here. I keep walking by one at a local dealership and all I can think each time I see it is Volswagen Cayenne. I have no idea how much it costs, but it appears ungodly expensive and way over the top. 

I always wanted a Honda Element with a diesel. Europe has CRV's with diesels, WTF?


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## wa-loaf (Aug 4, 2012)

jaja111 said:


> Its here. I keep walking by one at a local dealership and all I can think each time I see it is Volswagen Cayenne. I have no idea how much it costs, but it appears ungodly expensive and way over the top.
> 
> I always wanted a Honda Element with a diesel. Europe has CRV's with diesels, WTF?



That's the Tuareg, which shares a lot with the Cayenne. Tiguan is the smaller SUV.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 4, 2012)

Wonder if an oil change for the Taureg costs $300 like a Cayenne.  An acquaintance of mine recently purchased a 2008 Cayenne.  Someone really not in the financial position to own more than a used Toyota Yaris, but likes the "status" of owning a Porche.  Couldn't believe it when he told me the dealer's price for an oil change was $300.  He tried to shrug it off as not outrageously expensive because the oil only needs to be changed every 10K miles instead of the more common 3-5K for most vehicles these days.


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## bobbutts (Aug 4, 2012)

Funny, I learned on Hard Drivin' too.. 






I am currently driving a 2011 Subaru Legacy with CVT.. it's nothing like a performance car, but for cruising around the CVT is very nice and the ride is very quiet and smooth compared to other subarus.

The simulated gears via paddle shift are helpful for windy roads and engine braking, but clearly no substitute for a real manual.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2012)

:beer:


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 5, 2012)

LMAO hell all we had when i iwas a kid was 3 on a tree ! You learned it or you didn't drive period . Peeling rubber and laying a patch and spinning donuts on those were a hooot .  B4 synchromesh trannys ya Hold that clutch then pop the bastid  !!!!!  Smokin '!!!!!


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## darent (Aug 5, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Well, my new gf has a VW TDi sport wagon with a six speed so I'm good. But thanks for the offer ...
> 
> 
> 
> 2.5i and 2.5i Premium come with a 6 speed or a CVT. The limited and all the H6's are CVT or 5 Speed Auto.



how is that VW TDI wagon, has she allowed you to drive it, what do you think of it?


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## bigbog (Aug 5, 2012)

marcski said:


> I learned on an old Saab 99, 4-spd, with manual steering.  My brother's college ride.  He brought me to a quiet road with a hill.  Put the emergency brake on and put me in the driver's seat.  I found the friction point before hitting anything behind me. .  (I had just got my license).


AhhhHaHa...  Ford Bronco/standard....talkin' OLD-style shift on the steering wheel.   The hill/parking-brake-thing, just up from a brook(up in the Maine woods)...I _almost_ made my first hill/parking-brake journey an amphibious one.....


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## riverc0il (Aug 5, 2012)

darent said:


> how is that VW TDI wagon, has she allowed you to drive it, what do you think of it?


I have the DSG and it is a frigging awesome car. I bet the TDI engine with a MT is a lot of fun. You aren't going to have great 0-60 speeds but that torque is damn impressive, it sure feels faster than it really is. Very peppy engine.


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## darent (Aug 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I have the DSG and it is a frigging awesome car. I bet the TDI engine with a MT is a lot of fun. You aren't going to have great 0-60 speeds but that torque is damn impressive, it sure feels faster than it really is. Very peppy engine.


have a older outback and am thinking of replacing it and was interested in the VW's, thanks for the input


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2012)

darent said:


> have a older outback and am thinking of replacing it and was interested in the VW's, thanks for the input


Cool. Go for it! Just do it for the right reasons. The MPG is great but you need to be prepared to keep the TDI for upwards of 150k miles for the extra price of the engine and fuel to balance out. You lose the AWD but with a good set of snows, you are fine. I imagine that the space compared to an older Outback is about the same. I'm not a "car guy" and never really cared about having a "fun" car, but I appreciate what I have now.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 6, 2012)

darent said:


> have a older outback and am thinking of replacing it and was interested in the VW's, thanks for the input





riverc0il said:


> Cool. Go for it! Just do it for the right reasons. The MPG is great but you need to be prepared to keep the TDI for upwards of 150k miles for the extra price of the engine and fuel to balance out. You lose the AWD but with a good set of snows, you are fine. I imagine that the space compared to an older Outback is about the same. I'm not a "car guy" and never really cared about having a "fun" car, but I appreciate what I have now.



The interesting thing with the diesel is you can get the six speed with all the options, but the higher end gas models force you into an auto.

My girlfriends is in really good shape and drives great, but at 60k one of her power windows isn't working right. Doesn't always open.


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## marcski (Aug 6, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> My girlfriends is in really good shape and drives great, but at 60k one of her power windows isn't working right. Doesn't always open.



Probably just a bad switch for the window in the door panel.  I had to replace mine within the first 10K.  But, I have a German car so you'd expect one or 2 things like that to happen. lol.


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## SkiFanE (Aug 6, 2012)

Warp Daddy said:


> LMAO hell all we had when i iwas a kid was 3 on a tree ! You learned it or you didn't drive period . Peeling rubber and laying a patch and spinning donuts on those were a hooot .  B4 synchromesh trannys ya Hold that clutch then pop the bastid  !!!!!  Smokin '!!!!!



Yes!  My Dad spent so much time with me in the backyard with his Ford pickup (3 on a tree).  Could not get that thing moving smoothly.  He finally got exasperated, gave me the keys to the '65 Mustang standard, and on the first try I got that thing moving smoothly.  My Dad ended up gaving me that Mustang as my first car in HS (rotten floorbaord in back, had plywood on floor so friends wouldn't lose a foot).  I mastered the Mustang, could move to the Ford and shift it...just was the wrong thing to learn on first.  

Being able to start a car with a dead battery is always a good thing too!


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 7, 2012)

All I've driven/owned have been 1990 Subaru Loyale (retired at ~240k miles), 1995 Subaru Legacy (given away at ~320,000 miles) and a current 1998 Subaru Forrester (pushing 220k miles). All manuals.

And I'm looking at picking up a 2009 Impreza after I take the Forester through one more ski season.

If there were no current-model manuals and I was shopping for a new car, I'd source a late-model. I refuse to drive automatics except in rare instances when I need to help someone out with temporary transportation or moving vehicles.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 8, 2012)




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## Hawkshot99 (Aug 8, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> View attachment 6445



Should have used a Leki grip.  That way you could click in on rough roads!


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## bvibert (Aug 9, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> View attachment 6445



Pretty cool!


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## marcski (Aug 9, 2012)

Nice, but to do it right, you need to lose the strap and use one of these:


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## wa-loaf (Aug 9, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Should have used a Leki grip.  That way you could click in on rough roads!



Not my car, but it's giving me ideas ...


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## deadheadskier (Jun 21, 2015)

Tin said:


> The Volvo and Subaru are both sticks, and it is my right. Driving back from Acadia with no pain meds and traffic through your part of NH was hell. Damn your tolls and liquor stores.
> 
> 
> Btw...Happy First Father's Day



Thanks!  It was a great day.  

Both of our cars are sticks as well.   I have zero interest in owning an automatic transmission again.  Drives me nuts that Americans are so lazy that the choices for sticks is so limited today; especially with SUVs. The only time I consider getting an automatic again is  thinking about if I ever got hurt because I drive 700 miles a week on average for work.

The high speed tolls have helped a lot in NH if you have EZ pass.   The York tolls in Maine are still awful on weekends.  Seen it backed up to Wells.  It's almost as bad as the Cape Cod canal bridges.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 22, 2015)

I used to only drive stick shifts.  But there is nothing worse than being in a traffic jam with a stick shift.  I kept pretending that it was no big deal, but I was in denial.  And with the ability to shift with many automatics (via paddle shifters or via the stick), I can't see any reason to have a stick shift anymore.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

To each their own.  I think folks in the forum are well aware that I spend a lot of time in Boston traffic.  I won't deny an AT would be much easier, but it doesn't bother me enough to consider switching.

I've driven plenty of cars with slick ATs with paddle shifters and it simply is not as satisfying nor does it offer the same level of control over the car.  You still need to cycle through the gears, where as with a MT I can grab whatever gear and amount of tourque I want instantly.  That gives a huge advantage in driving in snow.

Add to that long term maintenance costs.  I've got 93K miles on my car and haven't even thought about changing break pads / rotors.  Clutches are relatively cheap to replace as well.

I wish we had the selection of MT vehiclesin the US that Europe has.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I have zero interest in owning an automatic transmission again.*  Drives me nuts that Americans are so lazy that the choices for sticks is so limited* today; especially with SUVs.



It's not that people are lazy, it's what the market demands.   Seems logical to me frankly.



VTKilarney said:


> I used to only drive stick shifts.  But *there is nothing worse than being in a traffic jam with a stick shift.  I kept pretending that it was no big deal, but I was in denial.  *



Which leads us to this.  Many Americans live in cities or suburbs, or travel to/from CBD zones.  P.I.T.A.



VTKilarney said:


> And *with the ability to shift with many automatics (via paddle shifters or via the stick), I can't see any reason to have a stick shift anymore.*



And also this.

   I don't understand the point of stick shifts anymore due to the above.  First time I ever drove a car like this was in Ireland about ten years ago, blew me away, but they're fairly common now.   I suspect that the only reason stick shifts survive in 2015 is tradition and familiarity, but I'm pretty sure they'll go the way of the dodo bird within......say..... 40 years.   

And regardless of the fact that the paddle technology is so good at this point, there's another important part of the equation that's often ignored, which is that modern automatic transmissions are _REALLY_ good now.  I think 99% of people are kidding themselves if they think they can "out-shift" many (most?) new cars automatic transmissions today.  I imagine both sticks and paddles will be a thing of the past someday.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

Like I said, it's about tourque management.  I've driven some of the best paddle shifters and traditional automatics out there and they fall short of delivering the same precision driving experience of a traditional MT.  It's not about how fast you can shift through the gears.  I know I'm not as fast as a machine/computer.


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## Domeskier (Jun 22, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't understand the point of stick shifts anymore due to the above.



The only think I can think of is that they make driving crappy economy rentals a tiny bit more fun...

Speedy recovery, Tin.


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## dlague (Jun 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Like I said, it's about tourque management.  I've driven some of the best paddle shifters and traditional automatics out there and they fall short of delivering the same precision driving experience of a traditional MT.  It's not about how fast you can shift through the gears.  I know I'm not as fast as a machine/computer.



Tear your left ACL and then try driving a stick.  Did not work so well.  My truck does not need torque management, in fact, it has the best traction I ever had in a SUV.  I ditched a standard after commuting into Boston with my wife's Saab.  That clutch pedal was tough to push especially when you are riding between 1st and 2nd gear.  In my Honda Accord it was soft and was not so bad.  Either way MT are history for me!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

Fixed my thread derailment.  Only reason I brought up the Manual Transmission is they're tough to drive when injured.  

And D-Lague, your car would have even better traction with a MT.  Why do you think all the Jeep Gear Heads drive MT?  Best for torque management and off roading.  The same applies in the snow.  

There is no automatic transmission on the planet that's smart enough to down shift when you're heading into a snowy corner.


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## marcski (Jun 22, 2015)

I love driving and I love driving a MT.  I got a new car last year and it is a MT for my daily driver, which gets about 25-30k of driving including driving in/out and around NYC on a daily basis.  It replaced another car that was MT.  IMHO, if you know what you're doing when driving and become at one with your transmission, you actually do a lot less when driving a stick.  For example, on the FDR almost every car is flashing its' brake lights on and off about every 10-20 feet.  In other words, the driver is moving his/her right foot from from the gas (or hovering) to the brake.  Meanwhile, for 80% of that time, I'm doing a steady 4-5 mph in 1st gear.  Not shifting. Not moving either foot.  

IMHO, you have more control of the car and get better handling out of a MT, it keeps you more engaged in the driving experience and it's just plain more fun to drive a MT.


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## ctenidae (Jun 22, 2015)

Control is a big factor for me in preferring a manual. That 1st gear creep is exactly it, marcski. If more people could/would drive like that, the rubber band effect of traffic would be much reduced, which would help reduce traffic jams. It's also harder to do other stuff when driving a manual, which means you're- wait for it - driving! Which you should be doing. Not texting, or eating, or reading, or putting on makeup, or searching for that next jam.  But, I rant...

You do have better control in curves and turns, and you just overall have a better say in what the car does. I turn off almost all the nannies in my car (ordered it without a lot of other ones), so that I know that when I do this, the car will do that. I don't turn them all off because the throttle mapping the system uses when everything's off is annoying, so I live with nannies pushed as far out as I can get them. It's very rare that they kick in, and it's usually only when I make them.

It would be nice to see a push towards safety, but not to make the cars safer. How about making the drivers safer?


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2015)

All part of the plot to take away our control of cars completely.

You will have to pry the shift knob out of my dead hand before I drive an automatic.


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not that people are lazy, it's what the market demands.   Seems logical to me frankly.



The market demands it because people are lazy.



BenedictGomez said:


> I don't understand the point of stick shifts anymore...



You should have stopped there.  If you don't understand it, you don't understand it.  The rest of your post just further exemplifies that you don't get it.  There's no part of the equation that's ignored, because it's not an equation.  It has nothing to do with efficiency, speed of shifting, etc..  It's all about the feeling of control, fun, driving experience, simplicity, etc.., that you simply can't replicate with flappy paddles.  I like driving, and to me part of driving is rowing through the gears as I accelerate.  But, even more fun for me is working the pedals to blip the gas with the same foot that's stabbing the brake, while the other works the clutch, as I downshift from 4th to 2nd going into a corner.  Nailing that throttle blip so that the revs are perfectly matched when I let out the clutch in 2nd is a feeling that keeps me coming back for more.  No computer, or equation, can ever compete with that.

My wife has a car with a CVT, it does a fine job of getting from point A to point B, but it lacks any sort of driving experience, to me it's more like riding in an appliance, which makes me very sad for the fate of automobiles.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

You nailed it right there.  To most people, a car is an appliance.  

Cten makes a good point about safety too.  If you're focused on driving, which an MT requires more attention to do; you're less apt to be distracted by other things.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 22, 2015)

Stick shifts are for  the "cool dudes" or dudes that think they are hardasses.....

I'm not cool.. I like automatic..  I'm OK with this..


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You nailed it right there.  To most people, a car is an appliance.



Yup, that's why the 'demand' is for more appliance like cars. Very sad. 



deadheadskier said:


> Cten makes a good point about safety too.  If you're focused on driving, which an MT requires more attention to do; you're less apt to be distracted by other things.



Another good point. I'd say that a lot of the car safety 'innovations' of late have contributed to people spending less attention on what they should be doing in order to drive safely.


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## Domeskier (Jun 22, 2015)

JimG. said:


> All part of the plot to take away our control of cars completely.



I'm rather looking forward to the day when I can nap in the back seat while my driverless car plows up the interstate to first chair at the mighty Sundown after an early season Nor'easter.


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2015)

JimG. said:


> All part of the plot to take away our control of cars completely.



That's the way we're headed.  I love technology, and the tech behind driverless cars in development is impressive (as is a lot of the tech in cars already on the road), but that doesn't mean I want it in my car!



JimG. said:


> You will have to pry the shift knob out of my dead hand before I drive an automatic.



You might want to buy a new car now that will last you until you die, they're getting harder and harder to find.  IIRC you have an Outback, which you can no longer buy new with anything other than CVT.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 22, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> I'm rather looking forward to the day when I can nap in the back seat while my driverless car plows up the interstate to first chair at the mighty Sundown after an early season Nor'easter.



YES!!!!!!  F driving...


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 22, 2015)

JimG. said:


> All part of the plot to take away our control of cars completely.
> 
> You will have to pry the shift knob out of my dead hand before I drive an automatic.



you guys crack me up..  

I'm so ready to not have to drive..
Unless I'm screaming around the mountain roads having fun - it's just a pain in the ass...

Technology is going to take over your car.. Assisted driving is happening and being phased in right now..
Auto lane change... Auto slow down with cruise control... auto parallel park..  Or how about just cruise control...?

It going to happen..   sorry...  not sorry...


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> I'm rather looking forward to the day when I can nap in the back seat while my driverless car plows up the interstate to first chair at the mighty Sundown after an early season Nor'easter.



And I'll be laughing my ass off when I drove my car to make first chair while your driverless car refuses to drive on the snowy roads because that's not part of it's programming! :lol:


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## Domeskier (Jun 22, 2015)

bvibert said:


> And I'll be laughing my ass off when I drove my car to make first chair while your driverless car refuses to drive on the snowy roads because that's not part of it's programming! :lol:



Unless you are arrested for violating CT's ban on driving yourself around in the snow!


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## ctenidae (Jun 22, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Technology is going to take over your car.. Assisted driving is happening and being phased in right now..
> Auto lane change... Auto slow down with cruise control... auto parallel park.. Or how about just cruise control...?
> 
> It going to happen.. sorry... not sorry...



I get the idea that some people don't like to drive, and that's fine with me, truly. Hell, the more people who ride in driverless cars, the more I'll be able to enjoy driving. 

As for the Auto-whatevers, when the sun shines just right on my dash, I can see where all those little indicators would light up if I had gotten them. I don't think I've ever turned cruise control on in my car- I'd have to look at the steering wheel to even remember how (I think- unless it's on the stalk, but I don't think it is).


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 22, 2015)

I love to drive... when it's fun...  It's not always fun..  Sometimes it's just mundane..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

As a traveling sales guy, I get the mundane part.  The MT makes things at least a little less mundane.  

I hope I'm retired before they come out with a self-driving car.  If they had them now, it would just be an excuse for my overlords to pile on even more paperwork.  No matter how mundane driving is, it will never be as mundane as senseless paperwork.


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## xwhaler (Jun 22, 2015)

The maintenance thing that DHS brought up earlier is definitely real. 
I traded my MT Tacoma in this past Fall for a AT Tundra (wanted more space for growing family) and at 115k the Tacoma was still on original brake pads.
Lots of highway miles and downshifting as appropriate resulted in amazing life on those pads.


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## Domeskier (Jun 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> As a traveling sales guy, I get the mundane part.  The MT makes things at least a little less mundane.
> 
> I hope I'm retired before they come out with a self-driving car. If they had them now, it would just be an excuse for my overlords to pile on even more paperwork. No matter how mundane driving is, it will never be as mundane as senseless paperwork.



Good point.  Bosses always find a way to ruin anything that makes like easier for people.  Like the cell phone.


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> I get the idea that some people don't like to drive, and that's fine with me, truly. Hell, the more people who ride in driverless cars, the more I'll be able to enjoy driving.



I agree that having less people who don't want to drive their cars behind the wheel, the better for everyone.  However, I see driverless cars as being the first step towards making it illegal to actually drive your own car.  Just look at all the safety crap the government already mandates on cars as it is.  It's clear that they don't think the public can handle driving (and they're probably right in many cases), but instead of educating people, they continue to give away driver's licenses to almost anyone who shows up, and instead dumb down cars with some more (mandated) technology.



ctenidae said:


> As for the Auto-whatevers, when the sun shines just right on my dash, I can see where all those little indicators would light up if I had gotten them. I don't think I've ever turned cruise control on in my car- I'd have to look at the steering wheel to even remember how (I think- unless it's on the stalk, but I don't think it is).



Agreed here too.  I have an older car without a lot of the new safety auto-stuff, but it does have cruise control.  That doesn't work (I don't think, maybe I just never tried it), and I'm perfectly fine with that.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 22, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> Good point.  Bosses always find a way to ruin anything that makes like easier for people.  Like the cell phone.



My old man retired in 2000.  He worked in finance and had some of the very first generations of cell phones and used them for maybe a decade or so.  When he retired he refused to buy a cell phone until just last year. He was that sick of it.  No call waiting on his home phone either.  He only converted to a cell because so many of his friends and family were easier to get in touch with via text.


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## Domeskier (Jun 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My old man retired in 2000.  He worked in finance and had some of the very first generations of cell phones and used them for maybe a decade or so.  When he retired he refused to buy a cell phone until just last year. He was that sick of it.  No call waiting on his home phone either.  He only converted to a cell because so many of his friends and family were easier to get in touch with via text.



+1.  The fewer devices I have to ignore when people want to contact me, the better!


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## Tin (Jun 22, 2015)

For me less moving parts is always easier to fix and less things to break. I love my MT for the gas mileage. Lots of areas where I can pop it in neutral for miles going up and coming back skiing. My neutral record is 7.8 miles leaving Jay. I think the whole K access road can be done is neutral when leaving as well.


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## Edd (Jun 22, 2015)

Driving down the Kancamagus highway towards Conway in neutral is a bit of a rush.


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## Cannonball (Jun 22, 2015)

I recently rented a little Mercedes MT in Portugal. I stopped buying MTs a long time ago so I thought it might be kind of fun driving a sporty little MT on European roads.  It wasn't.  It just reminded me why I stopped buying MTs.

I think the difference is this: some people see cars as toys, some people see cars as tools.  If you see them as a toy you want as many ways to play with them as possible.  If you see them as tools you want them to do the job as simply and seamlessly as possible.  Neither is a wrong perspective.  I see them as tools.


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## Not Sure (Jun 22, 2015)

My AT in my van almost caused me to hit a dump truck this past winter. I started up and left without warming up the engine came to the end of my road and hit 40' of ice, engine still on high idle pushed me after I hit the brakes , just missed a big dump truck ,was scary not being in control.
Had a MT on my Toyota 4x4 back in the 80's loved it but devolped knee issues . I havent had any knee issues since.


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## skiNEwhere (Jun 23, 2015)

I believe subaru stopped making MT's for the outback 2 or so years ago. I always thought that they would be one of the last to cave in too.

I definitely miss the stick shift, totally agree with what DHS said about being able to control the amount of torque and gear for whatever driving situation you're in.

This is especially true of my F-150 that weighs over 2.5 tons. Since I live at 10k feet and work at 5k, there is a considerable amount of heat on the rotors of the F-150 when going downhill. If I were to use just the brakes I would (and have) create hot spots and eventually warp the rotors which causes shaking while braking. I have to press the "tow/haul" button while going downhill, and if I hit the brake after picking up speed, the tranny will automatically downshift for me and engine brake. It's a PIA though, a lot of the time it won't upshift after the road flattens out, so I have to keep turning it off and on. That, or use the manual gear select button that's annoyingly placed on the column shifter.

I don't think ford has had MT's available on an F-150 since '08. I don't even think any car manufacturer has MT's available on lightweight trucks now either.


At least my motorcycle has a MT, I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

Lightweight midsized trucks you have options. Toyota Tacoma and the Nissan pickup.  Maybe the Chevy Colorado as well.


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## Geoff (Jun 23, 2015)

bvibert said:


> I agree that having less people who don't want to drive their cars behind the wheel, the better for everyone.  However, I see driverless cars as being the first step towards making it illegal to actually drive your own car.  Just look at all the safety crap the government already mandates on cars as it is.  It's clear that they don't think the public can handle driving (and they're probably right in many cases), but instead of educating people, they continue to give away driver's licenses to almost anyone who shows up, and instead dumb down cars with some more (mandated) technology.
> 
> Agreed here too.  I have an older car without a lot of the new safety auto-stuff, but it does have cruise control.  That doesn't work (I don't think, maybe I just never tried it), and I'm perfectly fine with that.



Self-driving cars will fix the traffic jam problem.  A computer can put cars bumper-to-bumper at 50 mph.  You don't have the moron nailing their brakes and creating stop & go traffic.   I foresee a time in the near future where there are self-drive lanes that crawl with stop & go and computer driven lanes that zip along at 50 mph.   It won't be long before all commuters convert over.

My Outback has Subaru's Eyesight adaptive cruise control.   Ever since Vermont and NH state police started using speeding tickets as a revenue source, I've been driving exclusively with the cruise control on Vermont Rt 4 and I-89/I-93.  Footless using the accel/decel buttons to change speed.  With adaptive cruise control, I only touch it when the speed limit changes.  If I coast up on someone, the car automatically matches speed.   I'm exactly the speed limit on secondary roads and speed limit + 9 on the interstate highways.   I don't trust it in heavy traffic but it certainly eliminates most of the driver fatigue because I can move my legs around and keep the blood flowing.

Eyesight also has a lane crossing warning.  It has clearly demonstrated that I drive just like every other d-bag a-hole a-wipe on the road when my nose is in my smart phone.   I've been using my voice controls on the iPhone almost exclusively.


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## buellski (Jun 23, 2015)

Shifting and drifting!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

Geoff said:


> Self-driving cars will fix the traffic jam problem.  A computer can put cars bumper-to-bumper at 50 mph.  You don't have the moron nailing their brakes and creating stop & go traffic.   I foresee a time in the near future where there are self-drive lanes that crawl with stop & go and computer driven lanes that zip along at 50 mph.   It won't be long before all commuters convert over.



Conceptually it makes perfect sense, but I struggle with picturing how the self driving lanes will work with real world variables.

What happens when it snows? Do the lanes shut down until the roads are clear?

How do you account for poor maintenance of an individual's car?  Someone could have crappy tires that cause issues with wet or icy roads.   If their car breaks down, how does the system react to the blocked lane.

With people relying on the self driving system, actual driving skill and common sense will likely diminish.  Does this create more accidents in person controlled vehicle situations?  Is it worth the trade off?

Lastly, there's liability insurance.  Who takes the responsibility for the self driving car?  The individual or manufacturer.

Even though we're seeing the self driving technology now, I think we are decades away from implementation due to all these variables.   At that point, maybe we are talking about self flying passenger drones instead of cars.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 23, 2015)

dlague said:


> Tear your left ACL and then try driving a stick.  Did not work so well.!




Drove my stick home the night I ripped my left ACL ... and for the next week until I finally went to the Drs.


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## ctenidae (Jun 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> How do you account for poor maintenance of an individual's car? Someone could have crappy tires that cause issues with wet or icy roads. If their car breaks down, how does the system react to the blocked lane.



I think this is one of the most interesting implications (and massive business opportunity) of self-driving cars. If your car drives itself, then why buy a car? A car has the highest cost and lowest utility of just about anything you buy- it spends the vast majority of the time sitting idle (unfortunately, my skis have done the same for the past 4 years...), so you might as well timeshare it. I can envision a whole tiered pricing structure, along with route mapping to make car pooling efficient. If you can have a car at your location within 5 minutes that will take you exactly where you want to go, why would you pay for 90% downtime? Instead, you pay for only the 10% of the time you use the car. 

Google, Tesla, Uber- the car companies of the future.


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## wa-loaf (Jun 23, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> I think this is one of the most interesting implications (and massive business opportunity) of self-driving cars. If your car drives itself, then why buy a car? A car has the highest cost and lowest utility of just about anything you buy- it spends the vast majority of the time sitting idle (unfortunately, my skis have done the same for the past 4 years...), so you might as well timeshare it. I can envision a whole tiered pricing structure, along with route mapping to make car pooling efficient. If you can have a car at your location within 5 minutes that will take you exactly where you want to go, why would you pay for 90% downtime? Instead, you pay for only the 10% of the time you use the car.
> 
> Google, Tesla, Uber- the car companies of the future.



Where are all these cars going to be stored? I'm holding out for a hover bike! http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/22/us-military-hoverbike/


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## ScottySkis (Jun 23, 2015)

Google car can't wait so ready to stop driving


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## bvibert (Jun 23, 2015)

Geoff said:


> Self-driving cars will fix the traffic jam problem.



No doubt.  The thing is, I don't ever drive in traffic jams, so I really don't give a shit.  To me traffic is when the jerk in the left lane is only going 70 and won't get out of the way.  Now, if the government let me mount a push bumper to the front of my car, and allowed me to push people out of the way, that would be an automotive advancement I could get behind! :lol: :lol:


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## bvibert (Jun 23, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> I'm holding out for a hover bike! http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/22/us-military-hoverbike/



Cool idea, but people can't even figure out how to drive in 2 dimensions, let alone 3!


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

the future is always scary..
But once it gets here it's so cool...

My dream is you have your car body - your "pod" as it were..  Detailed for you - decked out for you..  Comfortable for you..
you want to go someplace you make a call on an app...  A chassis shows up and docks with your pod...  You get in and go..


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## Not Sure (Jun 23, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> Google car can't wait so ready to stop driving



Haha .... so if your not driving you can't be charged with DUI?


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## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

bvibert said:


> they're getting harder and harder to find.  IIRC you have an Outback, which you can no longer buy new with anything other than CVT.



Got rid of the Outback drive a Legacy 6 speed now. It was the only car on the lot with MT. Got a great deal on it too.

I will drive MT until I drive no more. There are cars available with a stick, just gotta look hard.


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## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Stick shifts are for  the "cool dudes" or dudes that think they are hardasses.....
> 
> I'm not cool.. I like automatic..  I'm OK with this..



I'm not cool or a hardass.

Why do I have to be any of those things to prefer a stick?


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## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> you guys crack me up..
> 
> I'm so ready to not have to drive..
> Unless I'm screaming around the mountain roads having fun - it's just a pain in the ass...
> ...



We disagree on this one. And I hope it does not happen until I'm dead.  

With my shift knob in my hand.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

JimG. said:


> I'm not cool or a hardass.
> 
> Why do I have to be any of those things to prefer a stick?



It's just a chest thump thing to some...  They act all manly and testosterone'y...

I could care less - I just want to go from point A to point B safely and in comfort...


I am buying a motorcycle for all that kind of fun..


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

JimG. said:


> We disagree on this one. And I hope it does not happen until I'm dead.
> 
> With my  knob in my hand.


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## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


>



Oooops!

Driving is still fun to me. I stopped judging how or why others drive like they do, that just makes it stressful.

I do not want to find out what other people are going to try to do while they are mindlessly rolling from one place to another in what amounts to a big slot car. Frankly, the last thing we need is more "convenience".


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

Oh Im all about convenience...

The more the better... Means I can spend more time doing stuff i really want to do..   

Can't WAIT until the slot cars come out...
*Mindlessly* reading books or having discussions rather than staring at headlights and cursing Jerzey drivers......


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's just a chest thump thing to some...  They act all manly and testosterone'y...
> 
> ..



I've heard this said for ........

Driving a large truck
Driving a sports car
Driving a fancy luxury vehicle
Riding a motorcycle


Coming of driving age in VT, most everyone I knew had MT rusted out Saabs, VWs and Subarus.  They were cheaper to buy, easier to work on, got better mpg, handled better in the snow and dirt roads and yes, were more fun to drive with the low power engines of those cars.  I'd bet my 82 Honda Accord or 88 VW Fox had less than 100HP engines.   

23 years of driving later and this is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest people drive a stick because it's "manly"

I had no idea I was a testosteroney cool, hardass driving around in my little Mazda.  Maybe I should buy a leather driving jacket.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

It's less about the vehicle and more about attitude..

things like "pry x from my cold dead hands" - etc......  

thats attitude...


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

Funny... Put a stick in a guys hand and he get all manly...


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## bvibert (Jun 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I had no idea I was a testosteroney cool, hardass driving around in my little Mazda.  Maybe I should buy a leather driving jacket.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

Maybe where you're from.

Long haired hippies driving around old beat up VWs in the hills of New England?  Kind of the anti cool / manly thing


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe where you're from.
> 
> Long haired hippies driving around old beat up VWs in the hills of New England?  Kind of the anti cool / manly thing



Well until they start in with all the "shift or your lame stuff"...


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## ctenidae (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's just a chest thump thing to some... They act all manly and testosterone'y...
> 
> I could care less - I just want to go from point A to point B safely and in comfort...
> 
> ...



I would argue that the manual increases my safety and comfort when driving. I hate when driving some ATs that when you let off the gas, they don't really slow down- it feels like they speed up, since you overreact to the lack of the expected sensation. Knowing that I have that extra measure of control makes me feel safer, which makes me more comfortable. I can honestly claim I have never sat in traffic and wished I had an automatic.

Now, for chest thumping and testosteroning, motorcycles are great. They're fun, too, but not as useful on a daily basis.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Well until they start in with all the "shift or your lame stuff"...



Like I said, never met such a person.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> Now, for chest thumping and testosteroning, motorcycles are great. They're fun, too, but not as useful on a daily basis.



enjoy...


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 23, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Like I said, never met such a person.



heheheheh....  

You kind of surrounded by them...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 23, 2015)

You're right, Jim G and the rest of us all must have bruises on our chests........


----------



## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

Everyone thinks differently and it takes all kinds.

I used a figure of speech to convey my enjoyment of a manual. I have no attitude other than I prefer controlling my own car. That will continue.

And I can certainly listen to and allow for other viewpoints I don't agree with since most have their own measure of value.


----------



## JimG. (Jun 23, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Funny... Put a stick in a guys hand and he get all manly...



Said the drummer with 2 sticks.


----------



## marcski (Jun 23, 2015)

JimG. said:


> Said the drummer with 2 sticks.


Ftw.  Lol.


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 25, 2015)

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-alfa-romeo-giulia-revealed-2015-06-24

Not dead yet. 
I want.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jun 26, 2015)

JimG. said:


> Said the drummer with 2 sticks.



i try it with three sometimes...   

doesn't turn out well...


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Jun 26, 2015)

JimG. said:


> Everyone thinks differently and it takes all kinds.
> 
> I used a figure of speech to convey my enjoyment of a manual. I have no attitude other than I prefer controlling my own car. That will continue.
> 
> And I can certainly listen to and allow for other viewpoints I don't agree with since most have their own measure of value.



It's the manual shift attitude...  You totally have it..

You all have - why not embrace it? 
Why can't it be about chest thumping?  Being excited and happy for this act of fun that you so extol over the mundane life of us automatic shifters?


----------



## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's the manual shift attitude... You totally have it..
> 
> You all have - why not embrace it?
> Why can't it be about chest thumping? Being excited and happy for this act of fun that you so extol over the mundane life of us automatic shifters?




I was thinking about it this morning- it's not (necessarily) chest thumping or bravado. Aside from the safety and control aspects that some (myself included) enjoy, there's the simple pleasure in doing something right. The 4-2 downshift, the smooth row up the gears, the 5 miles of stop and go traffic with nary a brake light. It's no different than cooking a steak a perfect medium rare, or a perfect fishing cast, or a flower arrangement that's just right. To be sure, there's some fun in wrapping up a gear, in the little turbo snort as you upshift, or dropping a gear (and the hammer) in a tunnel. 

I enjoy manual transmissions because I like the connection, I prefer the control, and I indulge in the enjoyment. You prefer an automatic because you use your car as a tool, driving is a necessary chore, and it works just fine. That's why they make both kinds. For the moment.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 26, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> I enjoy manual transmissions because I like the connection, I prefer the control, and I indulge in the enjoyment. You prefer an automatic because you use your car as a tool, driving is a necessary chore, and it works just fine. That's why they make both kinds. For the moment.



Excellent...   

As I was downshifting my Automatic transmission using TipTronic I was thinking about this thread as well..

Don't get me wrong... The thought of screaming around a mountain road with a Porsche - downshifting into a turn makes me stoked!!


----------



## marcski (Jun 26, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> I was thinking about it this morning- it's not (necessarily) chest thumping or bravado. Aside from the safety and control aspects that some (myself included) enjoy, there's the simple pleasure in doing something right. The 4-2 downshift, the smooth row up the gears, the 5 miles of stop and go traffic with nary a brake light. It's no different than cooking a steak a perfect medium rare, or a perfect fishing cast, or a flower arrangement that's just right. To be sure, there's some fun in wrapping up a gear, in the little turbo snort as you upshift, or dropping a gear (and the hammer) in a tunnel.
> 
> I enjoy manual transmissions because I like the connection, I prefer the control, and I indulge in the enjoyment. You prefer an automatic because you use your car as a tool, driving is a necessary chore, and it works just fine. That's why they make both kinds. For the moment.


Agree.  A good downshift while accelerating through a turn lets you feel the g-forces build (while eveyone else in ATs are braking and working against the forces, a MT uses them to slingshot out of the curve) gives me a similar feeling as a really good carved turn on skis.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> The thought of screaming around a mountain road with a Porsche - downshifting into a turn makes me stoked!!



The thing is though.......you don't need a Porsche to have that kind of fun on winding roads.  My little Mazda handles like a go cart on the back roads.  Super fun car to push.  Also super efficient when I just need to get from point A to B.


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## xwhaler (Jun 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The thing is though.......you don't need a Porsche to have that kind of fun on winding roads.  My little Mazda handles like a go cart on the back roads.  Super fun car to push.  Also super efficient when I just need to get from point A to B.


+1 Mazda has always made great cars with an eye towards handling. My daily commuter is an '06 3 with 188k and steering/handling still feels very tight.
It's too bad the rust is starting to get to it around the wheel wells and on the trunk taillight. A common issue I see on 3's of this vintage.
Feel I will need to make the call within the next yr or so whether to replace panels (friend with an 05 3 did this) or scrap the car with the major mechanical components still in great shape.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The thing is though.......you don't need a Porsche to have that kind of fun on winding roads.  My little Mazda handles like a go cart on the back roads.  Super fun car to push.  Also super efficient when I just need to get from point A to B.




Wow... I can never be correct... 
I totally understand how cars work..
I learned to drive in a 1972 Ford Pinto..  I could smoke the tires..  I could do donuts...  


I like Porsches... They bring back memories..
My friend has a really nice 911 back in the day..  Loved to drive it...  I was the only one he let drive it...
He wrecked it and got a 240z  Which I REALLY loved.....  Until he wrecked it...


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## ctenidae (Jun 26, 2015)

The Subaru BRZ strikes me as a fun car to have, especially with the Prius tires. Apparently, you can drive like a total hoon and never break the speed limit in town.


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## JimG. (Jun 26, 2015)

funky_catskills said:


> i try it with three sometimes...
> 
> Doesn't turn out well...



lol


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## JimG. (Jun 26, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's the manual shift attitude...  You totally have it..
> 
> You all have - why not embrace it?
> Why can't it be about chest thumping?  Being excited and happy for this act of fun that you so extol over the mundane life of us automatic shifters?



As silly as me saying you obviously have the automatic transmission attitude. 

My father's (RIP) second wife has that one too...still lectures me about why I need an automatic. Much safer, the way of progress, looks forward to sitting in slot cars, blah...blah...blah. Does it every time she's in the car. My father was that way too. Maybe it's a childhood issue for me? The one thing I make sure of as a father is to NEVER tell my kids what to do or what to be. Even though I hated when he did it it is the greatest inadvertent lesson he gave me.

As my wise Jamaican wife always says, "let it be anything!". Who really cares? I feel safer and more engaged and focused when I drive a manual. I like it. Why do I have to be like everyone else?


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## skiNEwhere (Jun 26, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> My friend has a really nice 911 back in the day..  Loved to drive it...  I was the only one he let drive it...
> He wrecked it and got a 240z  Which I REALLY loved.....  Until he wrecked it...



Um, what's the point here?


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## Tin (Jun 26, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> +1 Mazda has always made great cars with an eye towards handling. My daily commuter is an '06 3 with 188k and steering/handling still feels very tight.
> It's too bad the rust is starting to get to it around the wheel wells and on the trunk taillight. A common issue I see on 3's of this vintage.
> Feel I will need to make the call within the next yr or so whether to replace panels (friend with an 05 3 did this) or scrap the car with the major mechanical components still in great shape.



That year is essentially a Volvo s40, no? Junkyards are loaded with s40 pieces because of the interference engines and people not changing belts/tensioners. I would check around.


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## xwhaler (Jun 26, 2015)

Tin said:


> That year is essentially a Volvo s40, no? Junkyards are loaded with s40 pieces because of the interference engines and people not changing belts/tensioners. I would check around.



No idea but maybe? Not a bad idea if I found panels that matched. Friend who had his replaced by a body shop paid approx $1500 but rust was worse than where mine currently is.
Not sure it's worth dropping that kind of cash on a 10 yr old car with over 200k miles though?    I really love the car though, its perfect for my long daily commute.


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## ctenidae (Jun 30, 2015)

Good news- the top of the line BMW 3, the 340, will offer a 6-speed manual as a no-cost option. Happy to see it coming back up the line, with 2 models (2 and 3) sporting a real transmission .  With the new Alfa Romeo slated to have a 6-speed as well (in at least  incarnation, at least), life is looking better.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 30, 2015)

My wish is for an affordable AWD smaller SUV or crossover to come with a MT.  Currently the only options I am aware of are Subaru and Mini Cooper.  

Will be looking at such a vehicle for my wife in a couple years and she's more demanding that her car has MT than I am.


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## ctenidae (Jun 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My wish is for an affordable AWD smaller SUV or crossover to come with a MT. Currently the only options I am aware of are Subaru and Mini Cooper.
> 
> Will be looking at such a vehicle for my wife in a couple years and she's more demanding that her car has MT than I am.



Doesn't necessarily qualify as "affordable" or "smaller," but we had a Porsche Cayenne with a stick, think it was an '07. All wheel drive, with the ability to put it in real 4WD. Usually had great grip, but on icy surfaces you could get it in a four wheel drift, which was fun (though disconcerting the first time it happened). No idea what used ones are going for. I do like the look of the Subaru Crosstek.


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## Edd (Jun 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My wish is for an affordable AWD smaller SUV or crossover to come with a MT.  Currently the only options I am aware of are Subaru and Mini Cooper.
> 
> Will be looking at such a vehicle for my wife in a couple years and she's more demanding that her car has MT than I am.



Here's something with a 6-speed option. Fits the parameters. http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=7721-en


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## deadheadskier (Jun 30, 2015)

Edd said:


> Here's something with a 6-speed option. Fits the parameters. http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=7721-en



Only available with MT in 2WD, not AWD.

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=8440-en


Your Forester is pretty much the best/only option that fits the parameters.  I don't like the look of the Cooper SUV and I'm sure the maintenance records are spotty.  Probably more fun to drive than the Subaru though.

So, this will be my punishment for years of trash talking Subaru.  :lol:

Purchase is still a ways off so my pride won't have to suffer for awhile yet.


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## Edd (Jun 30, 2015)

Whoops, that's a shame.


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## bvibert (Jun 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My wish is for an affordable AWD smaller SUV or crossover to come with a MT.  Currently the only options I am aware of are Subaru and Mini Cooper.
> 
> Will be looking at such a vehicle for my wife in a couple years and she's more demanding that her car has MT than I am.



Give me a wagon with 6 speed MT, AWD, and a turbo 4 cyl (gas or diesel) and I'll be happy.  I don't have much need for a small SUV or Crossover.  My 97 Outback is about the perfect size for me.. too bad it's rusting to pieces.  The Crosstrek is cool looking, but doesn't have the same amount of storage as my wagon.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 30, 2015)

I had read that the next generation VW sportwagen tdi will be available in AWD and initially they said a 6 speed option, but the most recent news says only Europe will get the six speed.


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## bvibert (Jun 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I had read that the next generation VW sportwagen tdi will be available in AWD and initially they said a 6 speed option, but the most recent news says only Europe will get the six speed.



Sounds about right.

Bastards


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## ctenidae (Jun 30, 2015)

bvibert said:


> Sounds about right.
> 
> Bastards



Lazy Americans...


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## JimG. (Jun 30, 2015)

I want this...but only if it's a manual:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/boss-429-lawn-mower-rare-finds/ar-AA9QBtO?ocid=DELLDHP


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## bvibert (Jul 1, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> Lazy Americans...



Yeah, them too.


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## bvibert (Jul 1, 2015)

JimG. said:


> I want this...but only if it's a manual:
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/boss-429-lawn-mower-rare-finds/ar-AA9QBtO?ocid=DELLDHP



Mowing the lawn, a quarter mile at a time


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## o3jeff (Jul 1, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> The Subaru BRZ strikes me as a fun car to have, especially with the Prius tires. Apparently, you can drive like a total hoon and never break the speed limit in town.



They are very fun, I've been looking for a toy and they are at the top of the list. You can have a lot of fun taching it out around town and on the back roads without getting into too much trouble where as a vette has a ton of HP but you need some room or will be flying.

Hoping the rumors are true about a BRZ convertible.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I had read that the next generation VW sportwagen tdi will be available in AWD and initially they said a 6 speed option, but the most recent news says only Europe will get the six speed.



Sounds like it's going to be an Alltrack wagon based on the sportwagon and it's debatable if they will offer it as a TDi. Will probably have the DSG in it for us. DSG is cool (cooler than auto or cvt anyway), but the maintenance costs on them are high.

The new Golf R just came out and it only has a DSG. Manual may still be coming, but when your top end awd sports car doesn't have a manual I think the writing is on the wall ...


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## gmcunni (Sep 8, 2016)




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## benski (Sep 8, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> View attachment 20630



Doesn't work so well.
http://www.barstoolsports.com/dmv/t...ecause-oops-he-didnt-know-how-to-drive-stick/


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## yeggous (Sep 8, 2016)

manual transmissions at definitely a thing of the past. CAFE fuel efficiency standards have even pushed automatics back in favor of CVTs. The final nail in the coffin will be the rise of Highly Autonomous Driving.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 8, 2016)

Its not going anywhere for enthusiast and sport/luxury cars. Smaller more efficient engines with turbo.

Also BRZ is slow go STi if youre looking at a new Subaru while it still has the EJ25 engine.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2016)

Hopefully Mazda continues to offer it for the 3 for many years to come. I don't really desire a performance car for all the driving I do. Something simple, reliable, fuel efficient and reasonably fun to drive is all I'm really looking for and the 3 works for that.  I've put 141K miles on my 2013 in 4 years. I've only had to do routine maintenance. Still on my original pads and rotors even while spending two days a week zig zagging around Boston.


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## yeggous (Sep 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully Mazda continues to offer it for the 3 for many years to come. I don't really desire a performance car for all the driving I do. Something simple, reliable, fuel efficient and reasonably fun to drive is all I'm really looking for and the 3 works for that.  I've put 141K miles on my 2013 in 4 years. I've only had to do routine maintenance. Still on my original pads and rotors even while spending two days a week zig zagging around Boston.



There will be challenges. Automatic braking is going to be required in all vehicles within 6 years. It is tricky to do this with a manual transmission as it can stall the vehicle. The agreement in place gives the automakers longer to work out the details for manuals as a result. 

Likewise adaptive cruise control is a problem on manual transmissions. The only vehicle that I know that even offers it is the Ford Mustang, and all it does is makes minor speed adjustments within a gear range (highway speed adjustments). All of the half decent systems require an automatic.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2016)

My hope for the future has been restored with what I just saw in Boston.  If the day comes when all the manual transmissions are gone, as long as there are people with the mechanical skills to convert a newer model Cadillac DeVille into a pickup, there will be someone capable of converting whatever boring AT car I buy into a MT. It may cost stupid money, but the option will be there.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> My hope for the future has been restored with what I just saw in Boston.  If the day comes when all the manual transmissions are gone, as long as there are people with the mechanical skills to convert a newer model Cadillac DeVille into a pickup, there will be someone capable of converting whatever boring AT car I buy into a MT. It may cost stupid money, but the option will be there.


Those cars are commonly used by funeral parlors for carrying flowers behind the hearse.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 9, 2016)

yeggous said:


> There will be challenges. *Automatic braking is going to be required in all vehicles within 6 years.* It is tricky to do this with a manual transmission as it can stall the vehicle. The agreement in place gives the automakers longer to work out the details for manuals as a result.
> 
> Likewise adaptive cruise control is a problem on manual transmissions. The only vehicle that I know that even offers it is the Ford Mustang, and all it does is makes minor speed adjustments within a gear range (highway speed adjustments). All of the half decent systems require an automatic.



What's your source on this, is that opinion or fact?

I've been considering making my next car a Wrangler. Thankfully there are a plethora of wranglers with manual transmissions, and I don't think that's gonna go away anytime soon (knock on wood)


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## yeggous (Sep 9, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> What's your source on this, is that opinion or fact?
> 
> I've been considering making my next car a Wrangler. Thankfully there are a plethora of wranglers with manual transmissions, and I don't think that's gonna go away anytime soon (knock on wood)



Fact. Just google "automatic braking" and you'll easily find a huge amount of coverage. I've been trying to impress this upon people. In a decade the idea of driving a car without autonomous features is going to seem as crazy as a car without antilock brakes, seat belts, and airbags today. These features are not science fiction. They exist and you can already buy them today. All that remains is integrating them into a single system.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2016)

Interesting. First time I've ever seen one. Maybe it's because I've lived in Northern New England most of my life and such a vehicle would be impractical for transporting flowers much of the year. I suppose in a city where the distance from the services to the cemetery is short, such a car is more useful.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 9, 2016)

Yea looks like a lot of auto manufacturers are heavily invested

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...stems-to-become-standard-on-most-u-s-vehicles

I doubt it would be that hard to program a car to automatically depress the clutch if the brakes are applied automatically as well.....but with all random contingencies that would need to be tested to ensure the clutch being depressed at the wrong moment won't cause an accident, it probably wouldn't make financial sense to most manufacturers to cater to what's become a niche market.


I could seriously see auto braking enable drivers to text more while driving. It will likely reduce rear end collisions but I wouldn't be surprised if more side-swiping types of accidents occur


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## yeggous (Sep 9, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> Yea looks like a lot of auto manufacturers are heavily invested
> 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...stems-to-become-standard-on-most-u-s-vehicles
> 
> ...



As I said, these are not hypothetical any more. These cars are already on the market. Automatic braking results in double digit reductions in the overall accident rate. As far as lane departures are concerned, lane keep assist is also already a reality and show comparable gains. This is technology that you can drive off the lot today.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2016)

Here's a thought/question, wouldn't a more beneficial technology towards life safety than auto breaking be an "auto shut off" of cell phones within a running vehicle except for 911 purposes?  Basically instead of Bluetooth connecting to a phone to be used, it actually turns the phone off.  Pretty hypocritical of me suggesting this as I snapped the earlier shared photo while stopped in traffic and spend much of my day driving distracted by talking to customers on the phone (through my cars Bluetooth), but it seems to me that cell phone usage is the most pressing traffic safety hazard of the day, even more so than DUI.

And I'll bring that full circle back to the benefits of a manual transmission. Those who drive them are forced to be more engaged in their driving.  When I'm creeping over the Tobin bridge, I have to be fully engaged in what gear I'm in.  My observation is as a general rule, those who drive manuals tend to be better / more focused drivers, which should be the goal


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty hypocritical of me suggesting this as I snapped the earlier shared photo while stopped in traffic and spend much of my day driving distracted by talking to customers on the phone (through my cars Bluetooth), but it seems to me that cell phone usage is the most pressing traffic safety hazard of the day, even more so than DUI.


 Bingo!

Same goes for people crossing the street.

And yes hypocritical.

Nothing new there.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Same goes for people crossing the street.
> 
> ...



At least I can admit it.......


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## steamboat1 (Sep 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> At least I can admit it.......


Very good....you admit to being a hypocrit.


.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Very good....you admit to being a hypocrit.
> 
> 
> .



When it's applicable. Something you're entirely incapable of......


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2016)

Guess I'll have to buy my Corvette with a big block and a manual sooner rather than later.

Oh well.


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## bigbog (Sep 10, 2016)

Will be interesting to see if auto-braking succeeds... Seems to be the thinking of the classic 20yo doctorate engineer....integrating something into a vehicle simply because of they _Can_...before scruitinizing whether they _Should_...  The pseudo-theme in the old Jurrasic Park line from the Jeff Goldblum character.  Lots of accidents happen via overloadding and distracting the drivers' mind with data.  It's quite a challenge.


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2016)

bigbog said:


> Will be interesting to see if auto-braking succeeds... Seems to be the thinking of the classic 20yo doctorate engineer....integrating something into a vehicle simply because of they _Can_...before scruitinizing whether they _Should_...  The pseudo-theme in the old Jurrasic Park line from the Jeff Goldblum character.  Lots of accidents happen via overloadding and distracting the drivers' mind with data.  It's quite a challenge.



Also called the law of unintended consequences. Falling in love with an idea without knowing for sure what the consequences will be.

I doubt overloading of data will be an issue for most drivers who seem to have no ability to pay attention to anything anyway.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 10, 2016)

I really hope the backlash against auto driving/braking is substantial enough that cars for drivers continue to exist. DHS is right manual drivers are more focused and safer.

Otherwise "vintage" circa 2015 vehicles are going to be in really high demand among enthusiasts.


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## bigbog (Sep 11, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I really hope the backlash against auto driving/braking is substantial enough that cars for drivers continue to exist. DHS is right manual drivers are more focused and safer......



No "backlash" needed....what is needed in driving is a constantly changing realtime recognition and judgement process....which any static or artificial intelligent system isn't built to do.


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## Jully (Sep 12, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> I really hope the backlash against auto driving/braking is substantial enough that cars for drivers continue to exist. DHS is right manual drivers are more focused and safer.
> 
> Otherwise "vintage" circa 2015 vehicles are going to be in really high demand among enthusiasts.



I wonder if those drivers are really 'safer' or if it is a self selecting bias. Given that there are so few manuals on the roads these days anyways, anyone that seeks out a manual is likely not the type of driver that gets into those unfocused type accidents.


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## Jully (Sep 12, 2016)

bigbog said:


> No "backlash" needed....what is needed in driving is a constantly changing realtime recognition and judgement process....which any static or artificial intelligent system isn't built to do.



I think those systems certainly have a place in the right context. The biggest problem I have with auto-braking is that if the car behind it doesn't have an auto-braking mechanism, then that person, if they are too close is guaranteed to hit them. That is why making it required on cars I think would actually reduce any 'risk' associated with those systems. 

In terms of making people less focused on the road, I think that is definitely possible, but also could be compared to other 'safety' mechanisms making people more careless like seat belts or even helmets when skiing. This is a little different though because it is a physical action that is taken rather than protection.


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## yeggous (Sep 12, 2016)

Jully said:


> I wonder if those drivers are really 'safer' or if it is a self selecting bias. Given that there are so few manuals on the roads these days anyways, anyone that seeks out a manual is likely not the type of driver that gets into those unfocused type accidents.



IIHS is the one that conducted the most reliable study, and those guys are very careful with their statistics. Actuaries take that seriously.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/deskt...tion-slashes-police-reported-rear-end-crashes


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## deadheadskier (Sep 17, 2018)

Doing my part to keep the manual transmission alive!

Took delivery of this sweet new VW Golf Alltrack with 6 speed manual transmission today. 

Pumped

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Glenn (Sep 18, 2018)

Congrats! Sharp looking ride.


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## Scruffy (Sep 18, 2018)

Nice!


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## Nick (Sep 18, 2018)

I miss manual. I sold my Saab in my move and we have an Audi here but it's auto . Whomp.

Sent from my SM-G950U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Sep 18, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Doing my part to keep the manual transmission alive!
> 
> Took delivery of this sweet new VW Golf Alltrack with 6 speed manual transmission today.
> 
> ...



New car high is a pretty good buzz.


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## bigbog (Sep 18, 2018)

Nice.....

*Mr. Nick....*what Audi did you get?  Am looking around for something, probably next spring/summer...after the single-car garage gets demolished and 2-car gets built, to relieve my 4R of local duties....


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## andrec10 (Sep 18, 2018)

Chevy still making manuals. Just no good for snow!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2018)

andrec10 said:


> Chevy still making manuals. Just no good for snow!


Brad J on these forums actually drives a mustang with snow tires most weekends to Wildcat.  Not sure if it's a manual transmission

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## andrec10 (Sep 18, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Brad J on these forums actually drives a mustang with snow tires most weekends to Wildcat.  Not sure if it's a manual transmission
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



But its a Mustang.... No way I would ever drive this in the snow. Hell, its scary in the rain. Plus no room!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2018)

andrec10 said:


> But its a Mustang.... No way I would ever drive this in the snow. Hell, its scary in the rain. Plus no room!


Sweet ride. I prefer the Camaro to the Mustang as well. Haven't seen how Brad gets his skis in his Stang.  Maybe puts the passenger seat down.  He rolls solo to the hill, so he doesn't need much space. 

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## Nick (Sep 18, 2018)

bigbog said:


> Nice.....
> 
> *Mr. Nick....*what Audi did you get?  Am looking around for something, probably next spring/summer...after the single-car garage gets demolished and 2-car gets built, to relieve my 4R of local duties....


It's a used 2010 a5  Cabrio! I love it but I would have loved manual. It only has 11k miles! 

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## Nick (Sep 18, 2018)

Nick said:


> It's a used 2010 a5  Cabrio! I love it but I would have loved manual. It only has 11k miles!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using AlpineZone mobile app


Here she is

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## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2018)

Sweet. The A5 is the best looking modern 4 seater convertible on the market IMO.  

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## moresnow (Sep 19, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Sweet. The A5 is the best looking modern 4 seater convertible on the market IMO.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Get em while you can.

https://jalopnik.com/audi-drops-remaining-manuals-in-u-s-a4-and-a5-models-1828446608


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## Funky_Catskills (Sep 21, 2018)

My current VW is manual...  Love it..  Except in NYC 
The other VWs I'm looking at(New Golf Alltrack and Sportwagen) to buy new have manual..


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## Edd (Sep 27, 2018)

Appropriate in regard to the thread title. Manual transmissions aren’t the main focus but it is briefly covered.:

https://youtu.be/sqtASrClFFc

Because I purchased a vehicle recently, this year I became hooked on all manner of YouTube videos reviewing cars of every type for every application. Off road, RVs, rooftop tents, road trips. Even after buying, I can’t stop watching this stuff. Some of the content is really impressive. 


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## Harvey (Sep 27, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone else think it's totally lame that there are so few cars being offered today with manual transmissions?



I'm sure this has been said in this thread but I didn't read it: It's a response to the market. Nobody buys them.

My last 4 cars have been CRVs. Since they stopped offer a stick, I now drive an auto. 

I used to justify the stick with mileage but the autos are as good or better now.

My new CRV 2018 has 31.7 mpg lifetime over 18,000 miles. That's very solid.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 5, 2018)

Harvey said:


> My last 4 cars have been CRVs. Since they stopped offer a stick, I now drive an auto.



Ha, I actually test drove a 2004 CR-V EX with a 5 speed manual earlier this year. Nice low mileage and cheap. Too bad the clutch felt funky to me (and I know how those Hondas *should* feel, something was definitely wrong). Ended up picking up a 2009 Rav4 V6 instead with 28,000 miles... sadly no manual but a good transmission for low gearing and locking rear diff, etc at least.

It looks like I'll be keeping and eventually rebuilding the Subaru Legacy GT+ anyway so the wife will inherit the Rav4 and I'll get to keep driving a manual.

I also test drove a Nissan XTerra with a 6 speed manual but hated the vehicle overall.


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## jimk (Oct 5, 2018)

Edd said:


> Appropriate in regard to the thread title. Manual transmissions aren’t the main focus but it is briefly covered.:
> 
> https://youtu.be/sqtASrClFFc
> 
> ...



I am uncertainly entering the car market and one of the vehicles I am considering is a 2018 Nissan Versa with manual trans for $9100 new.   This might be considered if my wife and I opt for the absolute lowest rock bottom price new econo-car.   We are dinosaurs who learned to drive on stick shifts but haven't owned one in about 20 years.  Our discussions are still all over the map and we're also considering a small 4wd pick-up truck or a four door convertible (in my dreams).   I have also been watching utub auto reviews and one fascinating topic covered there is the crazy rise in price of pick-up trucks over the last 15 years.  Many now fall into the $50-75K price range.


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## sull1102 (Oct 5, 2018)

jimk said:


> I am uncertainly entering the car market and one of the vehicles I am considering is a 2018 Nissan Versa with manual trans for $9100 new.   This might be considered if my wife and I opt for the absolute lowest rock bottom price new econo-car.   We are dinosaurs who learned to drive on stick shifts but haven't owned one in about 20 years.  Our discussions are still all over the map and we're also considering a small 4wd pick-up truck or a four door convertible (in my dreams).   I have also been watching utub auto reviews and one fascinating topic covered there is the crazy rise in price of pick-up trucks over the last 15 years.  Many now fall into the $50-75K price range.


Wait you found a four door convertible? I don't think there's been any of those manufacturered since way, way, way back even on the ultra high end side of things. I'd recommend you go look at a Honda Fit if you are serious about that Versa, it's not even worth the $9K they are asking you for. You'd be 1,000% better off taking that same money and getting a pre-owned anything. The Versa was engineered and is still built to be an ultra low end model that is essentially a throw away car. Anything else at all will have been designed engineered and built better because it was meant to be much more than what it costs now.

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## deadheadskier (Oct 6, 2018)

It's too bad Cadillac never went through with the Ceil concept.

Not that I could afford it

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a27916/will-we-ever-see-a-four-door-convertible-again/

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## jimk (Oct 6, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Wait you found a four door convertible? I don't think there's been any of those manufacturered since way, way, way back even on the ultra high end side of things. I'd recommend you go look at a Honda Fit if you are serious about that Versa, it's not even worth the $9K they are asking you for. You'd be 1,000% better off taking that same money and getting a pre-owned anything. The Versa was engineered and is still built to be an ultra low end model that is essentially a throw away car. Anything else at all will have been designed engineered and built better because it was meant to be much more than what it costs now.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



A salesman from Carmax told me to stay away from the Versa too, and look at the Corolla.  But the Corolla is twice as much.


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## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2018)

Not a car guy... or wealthy. Funny to hear all this talk of options on vehicles that would mean less than nothing to me. That being said, having a manual transmission is a deal breaker for me. I would simply never own an automatic. Thankfully my last 3 cars (all base models, all bought new for CHEAP): Civic, Jetta, and Focus (in that order) were available with manual transmissions. In fact the dealerships were happy to have me take them off their hands, as apparently those who seek or even consider them are few and far between! Kinda sad... I think the bigger problem isn't people's inherent preference, its more the fact that many young people simply never even learn how to drive a stick.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 8, 2018)

^^
The times have changed where it doesn't make sense to put manual tranny in entry level cheap-o cars. Not enough people can operate them, and people who buy these cars just want it to basically work.

The times have also changed wherein the best driver on a manual transmission can't outrun a new 8 speed dual-clutch automatic. So from a pure performance standpoint, look at cars like Dodge Demon. Automatic only. That transmission requires so much special programming to keep the rear wheels from completely burning out at 808whp.

Manual transmissions *do* still have a place but these days it's stuff like rear-wheel drive roadsters (Miata, BRZ, Fiat Spider, BMW M2) where it's more about driver engagement than raw power.

Another place they are still viable is in AWD hot hatches and rally-inspired cars (Golf GTi/R, WRX/STi, Focus RS, Fiesta ST, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quad etc). These cars also reward driver engagement. We can put the Civic Si and Type-R in this category too even though FWD.

Anything that could potentially be a tuner car ought to stay manual equipped.

BMW recently dropped manual on 3-series. Too bad but hopefully drives sales to competitors who are on the fence.

Trucks aimed at a non-geriatric sector, as in not these $80,000 luxury Longhorn rigs, ought to always have manual tranny option.

Tuners and crawlers might be a small segment but they generate enthusiasm and reputation beyond those numbers.


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## jimk (Oct 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Wait you found a four door convertible? I don't think there's been any of those manufacturered since way, way, way back even on the ultra high end side of things.
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Meant four seat convertible. 
Meanwhile - true confessions - I am still using the old family minivan as my daily driver.  The old 2007 Town and Country just won't die.


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## Quietman (Oct 9, 2018)

jimk said:


> Meant four seat convertible.
> Meanwhile - true confessions - I am still using the old family minivan as my daily driver.  The old 2007 Town and Country just won't die.


But you will get tired of patching the rust!!!!  I have 3, 2000, 2005, & 2007 and the only one without bondo is the 2000 with 306k because it was a southern car.


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## sull1102 (Oct 10, 2018)

jimk said:


> Meant four seat convertible.
> Meanwhile - true confessions - I am still using the old family minivan as my daily driver.  The old 2007 Town and Country just won't die.


Ohhhhh I was gonna say you're a hero if you plan on daily driving a sweet Lincoln from wayyyyyyy back! I did realize the Wrangler I guess is now a 4dr convertible, sorta. Best of luck in your search though when the time comes!

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## jimk (Oct 10, 2018)

Local Wash DC drive-time radio DJs (The Sports Junkies) were talking about manual transmission this morning and how they would hate to have a manual transmission car in rush hour traffic.  But they agreed having one would cut down on the danger of texting and driving.  They said only 4% of cars in the US are manual transmission at this point.  I had an MG from 1978 to 1988 and used to enjoy commuting in it.  I kept the roof down all summer and would purposely take curvy back roads to work

Not a convertible, but my brother had a second car for a couple years when he lived in North Carolina back in the mid '70s.  It was an early '60s Chrysler New Yorker that looked like this:


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## gmcunni (Nov 22, 2018)

https://koaa.com/news/covering-colo...king-suspects-stopped-by-manual-transmission/


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## mriceyman (Nov 22, 2018)

gmcunni said:


> https://koaa.com/news/covering-colo...king-suspects-stopped-by-manual-transmission/



Classic


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## Cornhead (Nov 22, 2018)

Ha, I owned a few Ford's with the keypads on the doors, was nice for leaving ur car running locked while running into a convienence store and knowing someone would at least have to break the window to take off in your car. Was good for skiing too, used to leave my keys in the glovebox. No chance of losing them there. Now I drive stick, and must admit that I leave it running figuring any dick wanting to take my car probably can't. 

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## deadheadskier (Nov 22, 2018)

Cornhead said:


> Ha, I owned a few Ford's with the keypads on the doors, was nice for leaving ur car running locked while running into a convienence store and knowing someone would at least have to break the window to take off in your car. Was good for skiing too, used to leave my keys in the glovebox. No chance of losing them there. Now I drive stick, and must admit that I leave it running figuring any dick wanting to take my car probably can't.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using AlpineZone mobile app


The keypad on Fords is literally one of my favorite gadgets I've ever had on a car.  Loved it for both those reasons. Great during summer too when hiking or going to the beach.   I have no idea why all brands don't offer it as an option.  So practical

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## SkiingInABlueDream (Nov 22, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I have no idea why all brands don't offer it as an option.  So practical
> [/URL]



My guess would be aesthetics. The keypad on the door is ugly, imo at least. Not disputing the utility tho.


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## sull1102 (Nov 22, 2018)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> My guess would be aesthetics. The keypad on the door is ugly, imo at least. Not disputing the utility tho.


I'm pretty sure Ford has a patent on that door keypad setup. I've always heard from the Ford people that they either never ever used it OR they absolutely swear by it and would hate to ever lose it.

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## benski (Nov 23, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The keypad on Fords is literally one of my favorite gadgets I've ever had on a car.  Loved it for both those reasons. Great during summer too when hiking or going to the beach.   I have no idea why all brands don't offer it as an option.  So practical
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I saw Subaru’s with it in the Netherlands. I got a feeling it is patented.


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## benski (Nov 23, 2018)

A guy I used to know did this. I knew him for one summer a camp. https://www.barstoolsports.com/dmv/...ecause-oops-he-didnt-know-how-to-drive-stick/


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## deadheadskier (Nov 24, 2018)

I've heard the patent mentioned before.  I would think at this point, it would have expired no?  The car I had it on was a 95 Explorer.  I also recall a friend having it on an old Nissan Maxima.  Early 90s model. 

I assume it's just not a highly requested feature.  Wish it were.  Liked it better than having a clicker key.  Was just really useful during all outdoor pursuits or leaving the car running and locked on super cold or hot days while running a quick errand.

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## sull1102 (Nov 24, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I've heard the patent mentioned before.  I would think at this point, it would have expired no?  The car I had it on was a 95 Explorer.  I also recall a friend having it on an old Nissan Maxima.  Early 90s model.
> 
> I assume it's just not a highly requested feature.  Wish it were.  Liked it better than having a clicker key.  Was just really useful during all outdoor pursuits or leaving the car running and locked on super cold or hot days while running a quick errand.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


I'm guessing you're right on the second half there as far as usage goes I bet less than 50% of owners use the feature and as far as design goes it can take a bit away in the looks dept so most brands just do away with it. Nowadays you have the proximity keys and Tesla even has it hooked into your phone so as you approach the car unlocks.

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## deadheadskier (Nov 24, 2018)

Those are great technologies, but doesn't really address the benefit I most enjoyed, which was leaving everything locked in the car.  I lived in VT at the time I had the Explorer. During summer I'd stop by local swimming holes all the time for a quick dip and would leave everything locked in the car.  As many of the swimming holes involved a hike in away from the parking spots, you wanted to keep the car locked. 

As for aesthetics, you could probably build the buttons right onto the door handle so you barely see it. 

But, I digress. Like manual transmission, not a feature many are looking for in their cars. 

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## sull1102 (Nov 24, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Those are great technologies, but doesn't really address the benefit I most enjoyed, which was leaving everything locked in the car.  I lived in VT at the time I had the Explorer. During summer I'd stop by local swimming holes all the time for a quick dip and would leave everything locked in the car.  As many of the swimming holes involved a hike in away from the parking spots, you wanted to keep the car locked.
> 
> As for aesthetics, you could probably build the buttons right onto the door handle so you barely see it.
> 
> ...


JLR is now offering something I think you'd love they call it an activity key, basically a waterprood wrist band Fitbit that let's you lock the keys in the car.

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## janski (Nov 25, 2018)

have a ford escape, great feature the door keypad thingy. you can't lock your keys in the car and get a bill from the locksmith. agree with DHS just lock it up with keys in it,never have to worry about loosing keys skiing or playing


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## Cornhead (Nov 25, 2018)

janski said:


> have a ford escape, great feature the door keypad thingy. you can't lock your keys in the car and get a bill from the locksmith. agree with DHS just lock it up with keys in it,never have to worry about loosing keys skiing or playing


Just make sure to memorize your code. I had just bought a 93 SHO with the pad 20 yrs ago. I stopped by my buddy's place to show him the car. Somehow I pressed the pad with the keys in the ignition, clunk. Luckily I had the sunroof tilted open. He was able to pull the keys out of the ignition and up through the sunroof with a coat hanger wire. Good luck finding one of those anymore. It was tense, as he had to grasp the hanger tighter with the keys on it than without. In doing so he couldn't keep his hand as flat, so it was a tight squeeze back up through the sunroof. I still remember the code to this day 57175. Haven't owned the car for years. I had a 90 with the keypad too, can't remember that one. No drama with that one. Are they all the same frontwards and backwards? Easier to remember that way.

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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 26, 2018)

Heading home to Hunter from NYC in that big storm last week was intense.
Took me 4 hours in my 2009 manual rabbit.    The whole way I was just dreading my last five miles up the mountain road to my house.   
Made it the whole way up the thruway no problem.    Started up the last hill in 5th gear to keep the wheels from slipping.  Half way up and the car stalled and the check engine light went on...   uuuuuuuuuugh....  I think it was in tooo low of a gear.    I had to back down the whole way and start again...  This time only went up to 4th gear.  haha...


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## skiur (Nov 26, 2018)

My new Jeep doesn't have a keypad (or option for manual tranny) If I have the keyfob in my pocket all I have to do is grab the door handle and it will unlock the door for me.


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