# Saddleback Maine for Sale!



## salsgang (Dec 15, 2012)

Big news out of Rangeley as the Berry family has put the mountain up for sale. Link to the news article here and at my blog.

http://maineskifamily.blogspot.com/2012/12/saddleback-maine-for-sale.html


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## billski (Dec 15, 2012)

Woah.


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## tomcat (Dec 15, 2012)

That's interesting.  I know the Berrys have done lots of improvements and had plans for lift expansion.  Hopefully a new owner could keep the price attractive still.  You can't beat their current lift tickets for the quality of the mountain.


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## Edd (Dec 15, 2012)

Very interesting. Really dig that place.


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## riverc0il (Dec 15, 2012)

Wow. So much investment already, so many plans, and now a sale? Surely they incurred a ton of debt improving the mountain and that is going to be included with the purchase. I wonder why they would invest so much and then try to sell it. They surely can't get enough to cover their costs and make a profit as a fixer upper.



> The Berry family will keep 7,600 of the 8,000 acres it bought 10 years ago and hopes to remain involved with the ski area in some capacity.


That suggests to me that the planned expansive expansion would be significantly reduced in size, if it ever happens.

I think the article says they'd be happy to see the mountain go non-profit. But if they really liked the idea, they'd set that up right now. They are probably more interested in cutting their losses and selling to the highest bigger.

So who can do this? Boyne is already saturated in that part of Maine but they could preempt competition by bring Saddleback on board and offer the ultimate and best multi-mountain season pass in New England bar none but I dont' see that happening. Jay just tapped Burke, I can't imagine they'd want another so soon. Peak Resorts might be able to benefit but they don't seem like they are in a good enough financial position to do it. Triple Peaks? They would be the first to have areas in VT, NH, and ME since ASC if they did it, Saddleback could benefit from the Triple Peaks treatment of a HSQ double replacement, lots of snow making, and the condo build up thing. Private investors not already involved with another resort?

Saddleback is a tough sell due to location but the mountain has momentum, good stats, improving visibility, and a great variety of terrain. I can't see it not going the distance at this point but I don't think the Berry family is going to have offers thrown at them either.


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## Angus (Dec 15, 2012)

Not super shocking, in the last 12-18 months, hasn't there been talk about how the family was scaling back their investment which was creating some question about their future plans. The article is lacking in details about any assumption of debt by new buyer, etc. Interesting, the family is keeping the bulk of acreage. Rangeley is a special place but it is so hard to get there! Skied there last spring for first time and literally saw mountain melt out in front of my eyes but you can see how fun it would be when they have snow.


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## Mildcat (Dec 15, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Wow. So much investment already, so many plans, and now a sale? Surely they incurred a ton of debt improving the mountain and that is going to be included with the purchase. I wonder why they would invest so much and then try to sell it. They surely can't get enough to cover their costs and make a profit as a fixer upper.
> 
> 
> That suggests to me that the planned expansive expansion would be significantly reduced in size, if it ever happens.
> ...



How much would the ability to be a "four season resort" appeal to potential buyers?


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## riverc0il (Dec 15, 2012)

Mildcat said:


> How much would the ability to be a "four season resort" appeal to potential buyers?


Tenney and Ascutney sit dormant while Burke gets bought and continues to go the multi-season resort route. I can't think of many areas that have been bought recently without the intent of trying to milk the resort year round. Even MRG is stepping up its use of its facilities in the off season for functions. I don't think modern areas can survive without four season appeal.


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## Nick (Dec 15, 2012)

> The asking price is $12 million for 400 acres of property that includes the ski trails and lifts, the base lodge and most of the surrounding 121 condominium units.



That seems like a pretty good price actually. I mean 120 condo units alone at $100k is $12m. Plus all the lifts and equipment and base lodge?


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## wa-loaf (Dec 15, 2012)

Wow, that's a big deal. Hope it goes into good hands!


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## drjeff (Dec 15, 2012)

Location, location, location! 

Saddleback suffers from the perception of the "masses" (whom they need more of to pay the bills) that they're so far out of the way that it's probably not worth the extra drive time with other GOOD choices available "closer"

Right or wrong, many folks won't even bother to deal with the perceived hassle of getting there for the 1st time to check it out- i'm also guessing that the $$ that Boyne is spending on Sugarloaf (and also promoting it) isn't helping out Saddleback at drawing new folks


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## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2012)

The timing of this is certainly interesting considering didn't Saddleback just receive approval for EB-5 investment?

I personally don't think it will sell if the Berry's intend on keeping 7600 of the 8000 acres.  That sounds to me like they want to rid themselves of the greatest cost liability (the ski area operation), yet retain Saddleback's greatest potential asset; land for real estate development. 

If they were willing to part with all of the property, I could see a company like CNL potentially being interested in purchasing it and leasing out the resort operations.


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## billski (Dec 15, 2012)

It's actually a very smart move on the part of the Berrys from an investment point of view.  Sell high.  The asset value is high right now. They have really made a lot of investments beyond capital.  The ski school alone has had a ten-fold enrollment increase in the last five years.  

The debt is not the buyers problem, though it will certainly play into how low Berrys will go.   A these days buyers are investment buyers.  They look for payback over NN years depending on the type of investment.  That certainly means 4 season investments a-la Jay.   If you've already got people making a hoof up to Sugarloaf and Bethel Maine, it's not that big a stretch.  If you look at summer time, lots of people are making the hoof, for a week at a time.

At this point in the industry's lifecycle, It would not surprise me if some wall street entity buys it and subs the operation out to a third party.

It would not surprise me if they lease back some of the land to the buyer.


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## skiNEwhere (Dec 15, 2012)

So 12,000,000......divided by the 5,088 members of AZ is 2,358.49 per person. Let's buy it as a co-op!


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## wa-loaf (Dec 15, 2012)

Too bad I didn't win the Powerball last week. 12 mill would have been chump change ...


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## steamboat1 (Dec 15, 2012)

Rangely already is a 4 season destination. The lake is huge & is very popular in the summer. Contrary to what some might think skiing & Saddleback play a minor role in the local economy. The Rangeley area is arguably the snow mobile capital of the east. In winter the local hotels/motels are not filled with skiers they're filled with snow mobilers.

Still I'm surprised to hear that Saddleback is up for sale after reading all the plans they had for the mountain. Quite a few of the plans have already been constructed & installed. If you've never been there it really is a great mountain.


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## Nick (Dec 15, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> So 12,000,000......divided by the 5,088 members of AZ is 2,358.49 per person. Let's buy it as a co-op!




sweet


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## skiNEwhere (Dec 15, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> Too bad I didn't win the Powerball last week. 12 mill would have been chump change ...



I was thinking the same thing, except I would try to pry the Big Squaw area from their incompetent owner califone


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## salsgang (Dec 15, 2012)

I saw Mr. and Mrs. Berry at Saddleback today as we were skiing up there today for opening day. I don't know them at all so I didn't speak to them... and anything I say about any reasons why they are selling would just be guessing. 

The Berry's have been awesome for Saddleback over their 10 year ownership. The first 5 years of their ownership were pretty active from a capital perspective. New lodge, 2 new chairlifts. The last 5 years have been pretty stagnant capital wise, but they have always aimed at keeping Saddleback affordable and accessible. I am hopeful new owner(s) will revive the capital improvement plan while keeping the same Saddleback vibe.


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## speden (Dec 15, 2012)

Saddleback has always been intriguing to me, but the drive from Mass is pretty brutal, with somewhat lousy roads.  I've always found Sugarloaf to be much easier to get to.  It must be tough to attract a lot of skier visits to Saddleback.


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## salsgang (Dec 15, 2012)

speden said:


> Saddleback has always been intriguing to me, but the drive from Mass is pretty brutal, with somewhat lousy roads.  I've always found Sugarloaf to be much easier to get to.  It must be tough to attract a lot of skier visits to Saddleback.



That certainly is the perception but it really isn't true anymore. They have redone most of Route 4 from Farmington to Rangeley so it is a much better drive. It is honestly a 2 hr 10 min drive from Freeport. Only 10 minutes longer than Sugarloaf. And you can drop your crap right at the Lodge at Saddleback and avoid the shuttle schlep so it is a net even travel distance in my book.


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## Masskier (Dec 16, 2012)

How far from Boston?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 16, 2012)

230 miles.  4-4.5 hours.


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## salsgang (Dec 16, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> 230 miles.  4-4.5 hours.



That's about right. It is about 2 hours from my house to the North Station area of Beantown. a bit over 2 hours from my house to Saddleback. (I live in Freeport)


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## xwhaler (Dec 16, 2012)

Nice report...I love Saddleback so will be watching closely to any news that comes from the sale. Route 4 really has been improved considerably so anyone coming from the south will get the Loaf or Saddleback in the same time basically. 

Nice that they got Coachman going for opening day....typically its Ghost then Weaver then one of the Devils. Would be awesome if they could somehow get the Kennebago going for x-mas/vacation week but that's probably too optimistic.


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## tipsdown (Dec 16, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The timing of this is certainly interesting considering didn't Saddleback just receive approval for EB-5 investment?
> 
> I personally don't think it will sell if the Berry's intend on keeping 7600 of the 8000 acres.  That sounds to me like they want to rid themselves of the greatest cost liability (the ski area operation), yet retain Saddleback's greatest potential asset; land for real estate development.
> 
> If they were willing to part with all of the property, I could see a company like CNL potentially being interested in purchasing it and leasing out the resort operations.



The timing is interesting. But they've got some momentum right now, especially with the EB-5 in place. They've received a lot of ink recently and their street cred with the "skiers" (i.e. this forum) is at an all time high. But they know they're going to have to relinquish a good chunk if not all of those 8000 acres. The offer sounds like a starting point to me. If your a buyer, your doing the deal because of the untapped potential. Without all that land the potential is drastically diminished. And it will sell. Sure, its out of the way from the masses. Doesn't matter, investors buy potential. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. And no ski area in the east has more of it than Saddleback. Fact not Opinion. 

Its like the old #1 draft pick who hasn't YET put it all together. There's ALWAYS someone that will pick them up because they think they can make it work.  For all of us skiers...hopefully they do.


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## soposkier (Dec 17, 2012)

salsgang said:


> That certainly is the perception but it really isn't true anymore. They have redone most of Route 4 from Farmington to Rangeley so it is a much better drive. It is honestly a 2 hr 10 min drive from Freeport. Only 10 minutes longer than Sugarloaf. And you can drop your crap right at the Lodge at Saddleback and avoid the shuttle schlep so it is a net even travel distance in my book.



Agreed, Route 17 is also new now for almost the entire stretch from Mexico to Oqussoc if you opt for that route.  One of the most scenic drives around.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2012)

tipsdown said:


> The timing is interesting. But they've got some momentum right now, especially with the EB-5 in place. They've received a lot of ink recently and their street cred with the "skiers" (i.e. this forum) is at an all time high. But they know they're going to have to relinquish a good chunk if not all of those 8000 acres. The offer sounds like a starting point to me. If your a buyer, your doing the deal because of the untapped potential. Without all that land the potential is drastically diminished. And it will sell. Sure, its out of the way from the masses. Doesn't matter, investors buy potential. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. And no ski area in the east has more of it than Saddleback. Fact not Opinion.
> 
> Its like the old #1 draft pick who hasn't YET put it all together. There's ALWAYS someone that will pick them up because they think they can make it work.  For all of us skiers...hopefully they do.



I'm sure it will sell, but it may take awhile.  Look at the math here.  The Berry's pumped $40M into the area and are trying to get $12M back.  That means they would have had to made a profit of $28M over the past ten years just to have broken even on their investment.  Despite the investment, the reported high number for skier visits is 97K.  At the bargain prices they charge and with so few skier visits, I doubt they've broken even unless there was a lot of profit made from condo development.  

You are right that Saddleback's land holdings, does give it the most growth potential of any eastern ski area.  But land potential doesn't always equal profit potential.  I'd need to see the books obviously, but I think the Berry's are figuring that out, hence why they're trying to dump the ski operation.  

Best thing for Saddleback would be for it to be purchased by another family like the Berry's who are passionate about the sport and the Rangeley area; and are willing to invest tremendous capital knowing that the returns will be minimal if any at all for many years.  Those people are hard to come by.


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## bigbog (Dec 17, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> .....So who can do this?
> ..........Saddleback is a tough sell due to location but the mountain has momentum, good stats, improving visibility, and a great variety of terrain. I can't see it not going the distance at this point but I don't think the Berry family is going to have offers thrown at them either.



Thought VW made payments pretty affordable, leaving their customers to partake in other venues _riv_​..?...LOL...only ~$12M..
Just my $.01 but the fact that wholesale cutting might not be taking place leaves a smile on my face...


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## salsgang (Dec 17, 2012)

The Berry's today sent out an email to the Saddleback email list in regards to the reasons behind the sale and some thoughts about turning Saddleback into a non-profit. It is a good read. You can read the note in its entirety on my blog:

http://maineskifamily.blogspot.com/2012/12/saddleback-sale-note-from-berry-family.html


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## Edd (Dec 17, 2012)

salsgang said:


> That's about right. It is about 2 hours from my house to the North Station area of Beantown. a bit over 2 hours from my house to Saddleback. (I live in Freeport)



Salsgang, what route do you take from Freeport to Farmington?


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## salsgang (Dec 17, 2012)

Edd said:


> Salsgang, what route do you take from Freeport to Farmington?



I295 up to Augusta then 27.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I  Look at the math here. * The Berry's pumped $40M into the area and are trying to get $12M back.*



Good Lord in heaven, that's a bloodbath.   Unless they view the true value in the purchase to be the land they're retaining somehow.


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## tipsdown (Dec 17, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Best thing for Saddleback would be for it to be purchased by another family like the Berry's who are passionate about the sport and the Rangeley area; and are willing to invest tremendous capital knowing that the returns will be minimal if any at all for many years. Those people are hard to come by.



That probably is the best scenario but the more likely one would be the former you had mentioned earlier.  Get the backing from a corporation and have it managed by a group thats got a pulse on the mountain and the area.  It will be interesting to see if Warren Cook makes another run at it.  He tried to put a deal together a couple years ago but it didn't work.  My guess is he could get the backing.  Plus he's from here and he knows the industry...


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## salsgang (Dec 17, 2012)

tipsdown said:


> That probably is the best scenario but the more likely one would be the former you had mentioned earlier.  Get the backing from a corporation and have it managed by a group thats got a pulse on the mountain and the area.  It will be interesting to see if Warren Cook makes another run at it.  He tried to put a deal together a couple years ago but it didn't work.  My guess is he could get the backing.  Plus he's from here and he knows the industry...



According to the original Portland Press Herald article Cook was not interested. Eric Cianchette of the Cianbro clan is interested but I wonder why the listing broker would offer up his name as being interested. Stir the pot I guess...


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## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2012)

Les Otten still interested in the ski business?  He could make a lot of wood pellets from those 8K acres.  :lol:

Didn't L.L. Bean kick the tires on Sunday River and Sugarloaf when they were being liquidated from ASC also?

I'm not sure how viable a non-profit approach would be when it's questionable if the area is able to break even.  You would need a significant trust to be able to carry the place during lean years.

Truthfully, I think the best thing for Saddleback in the long run would be an increase in population in the Portland and Augusta areas.  When I lived in Portland, I skied almost exclusively in Maine except for going over to Wildcat.  Even when I had an ASC pass, I didn't bother going over to Attitash because 302 is PITA.  I rarely returned back to VT to ski because it was PITA to travel all the way down 95, cross over 101 and then head back up to VT.  Guess what I'm saying is, if you live in Maine from Portland on North, you're going to primarily ski at Maine Ski Areas.  It's different here in NH.  Some ski NH, some head to VT, some head to Maine; same goes for Boston.  Problem is that the Portland to Augusta corridor is such a small market and not a very affluent one either.

I really wish the Berry's had taken a shot with the deep ball and replaced the double with HSQ and heavily marketed their great character cruising trails on the mid-mountain that it would service.  Unless you're MRG, a 2K vert mountain needs such a lift to be competitive.  I think it would've been a better investment than installing the Kennebago Quad and heavily marketing their expert terrain like they have.

Hope it works out for the best for those that call the place home.  I've only been there once and it was on a bad day, but I can see why people love it so much.  Great mountain for sure.


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## C-Rex (Dec 18, 2012)

How about all the AZ peeps get together and buy it.  We could have our own private moutain...


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## speden (Dec 18, 2012)

I'd be happy to chip in if the price includes the cost of shipping it to my backyard.


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## tipsdown (Dec 18, 2012)

salsgang said:


> According to the original Portland Press Herald article Cook was not interested. Eric Cianchette of the Cianbro clan is interested but I wonder why the listing broker would offer up his name as being interested. Stir the pot I guess...




I did see that.  He very well may not be intererested. But even if he was there would be nothing to gain by saying he was so I more or less disregarded it for the same reason Eric Chianchette's being floated out there doesn't seem to mean very much.  

My guess is someone with Maine roots will be involved (at least on the management/operational in a deal....side) in the deal.

Hopefully there will be some answers in the foreesable future!


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## AdironRider (Dec 18, 2012)

I dont see the current owners just eating 28 million. Not unheard of, but doubtful considering 12 mill is their starting point. Most likely sells for under 10. 

Off the cuff thats most likely debt included with the sale, hence the reduced asking price for the acreage and condo units theyre selling.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 19, 2012)

If I'm spending 12 million I want to know where the other 300 vertical is.


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## salsgang (Dec 22, 2012)

NECN did a TV News story on Saddleback Maine and the potential sale. They were there the *same day we were there*. If you have been following this thread nothing really new but they have some pretty good powder skiing shots! Worth a couple of minutes.

I embedded the video on my *blog post about the Saddleback Ski Sale*.


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## Angus (Dec 22, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Good Lord in heaven, that's a bloodbath.   Unless they view the true value in the purchase to be the land they're retaining somehow.



$40mm - would be interesting to see the accounting. Does that include the original purchase price?

bulk of the land is staying with the Berry's - I didn't bother to go back and re-read but I think it was only 400 acres of land they were selling, keeping 7,600 acres plus as earlier posters have said, there is likely an assumption of debt. remember I think wildcat only went for something like $2-3mm so that gives you some idea of the value of the ski ops. 

I've spoken to someone who said they know a current NE ski area operator who had looked at the deal and didn't like the acreage split and whatever other terms were associated with the deal.

I know a big goal of the Berry's was preservation and conservation so this is may their way of limiting development - although I doubt Rangeley could realistically support a mega-resort.


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## salsgang (Dec 23, 2012)

Angus said:


> $40mm - would be interesting to see the accounting. Does that include the original purchase price?
> 
> bulk of the land is staying with the Berry's - I didn't bother to go back and re-read but I think it was only 400 acres of land they were selling, keeping 7,600 acres plus as earlier posters have said, there is likely an assumption of debt. remember I think wildcat only went for something like $2-3mm so that gives you some idea of the value of the ski ops.
> 
> ...



According to Saddleback Management the new owners would not have an assumption of debt. I also believe that more land can be sold... the Berry's just had to start somewhere. They probably wanted to get an asking price up there that would get as many parties as possible interested. 

There are a lot of options on the table. Outright sale, a partnership with new investor(s) or turning the ski area into a non-profit corporation. Will be interesting to see what happens.


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## skibuff (Dec 23, 2012)

Wildcat had a negative cash flow of about $500k per year and is only 2.5 hours from Boston skis over 100,000 skiers and sold for $2m. 
Saddleback looses probably over $1.5m per year without reinvestment capital..so likely it would take over $2m per year in cash subsidy to keep it going...that is why they are selling and how they invested $40m and are trying to sell it for $12m. It is worth less than Wildcat and likely to keep loosing $2m per year or more - especially if Boyne and CNL keep investing in Sunday River and Sugarloaf or decided to start getting aggressive on season pass pricing. Unfortunately, IMO it would take another Berry family who had $20 - 30m to "donate" to the cause of low cost skiing for it to be viable. Otherwise, it just make no sense for it to operate. Boyne and CNL would be the highest payer aside from another Berry Family, if neither shows up the place will be a great hike to trail system in the future....that is the only kind of non-profit that could work.....ponder this.....two thousand passholders splitting the $2m in annual losses would cost 1k per year per person...by far the most expensive ski experience in all of New England....and that is just the annual losses.....

Sorry to pour ice water all over everyones holiday hopes and wishes....


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## Newpylong (Dec 23, 2012)

If Peaks was in better financial shape I would say they should go for it. That would be one pretty sweet pass.


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## teqeeler (Dec 23, 2012)

skibuff said:


> Wildcat had a negative cash flow of about $500k per year and is only 2.5 hours from Boston skis over 100,000 skiers and sold for $2m.
> Saddleback looses probably over $1.5m per year without reinvestment capital..so likely it would take over $2m per year in cash subsidy to keep it going...that is why they are selling and how they invested $40m and are trying to sell it for $12m. It is worth less than Wildcat and likely to keep loosing $2m per year or more - especially if Boyne and CNL keep investing in Sunday River and Sugarloaf or decided to start getting aggressive on season pass pricing. Unfortunately, IMO it would take another Berry family who had $20 - 30m to "donate" to the cause of low cost skiing for it to be viable. Otherwise, it just make no sense for it to operate. Boyne and CNL would be the highest payer aside from another Berry Family, if neither shows up the place will be a great hike to trail system in the future....that is the only kind of non-profit that could work.....ponder this.....two thousand passholders splitting the $2m in annual losses would cost 1k per year per person...by far the most expensive ski experience in all of New England....and that is just the annual losses.....
> 
> Sorry to pour ice water all over everyones holiday hopes and wishes....



I respectively disagree with your post.  

You have really no basis of facts if you think saddleback loses 1.5 million, comparing them to wildcat and then subtracting 1 million is somewhat short sighted. There are many different variables that change the selling price.  Your only going by skier visits, which doesn't tell the whole picture.
Saddleback has a bunch of condos, right there changes the financial situation. Saddleback very well could lose money running the ski resort operations but making up for it with condo's, real estate, the blue festival, marina, base lodge sales, season passes etc. Comparing the two is really mute i think.

Saddleback has  better infrastructure then wildcat in snomaking, lifts, lodge etc. Not to rip on wildcat, love the place.
Wildcat is in the middle of the white mountain national forest, i believe they are much more restricted to future development as saddleback has much more potential in that area.
Saddleback needs a hotel built and that right there could add alot more skier visits, conferences etc.
 Saddleback will not become a hiking mountain, I'm not sure if you have  been there but it's only 15 mins from sugarloaf, sugarloaf does fine, so there is  potential for them to be able to increase visits.

There are non profits that can run saddleback
check out this website Maine Winter Sports Center

This company could probably run saddleback and make it work as a non-profit. They have made northern maine the top cross country and biathlon place in america, all with in the last 10 years, that is saying quite alot especially if you have ever been to aroostock, much much more out of the way then saddleback. They have even got world cup events watched by millions of people in Europe and built stunning facility's up there, where talking alot of millions they have spent.  They also operate a small ski hill, black mountain and invested nicely into that.
I'm sure they lose money on all the places, but have the finances to do something like this.
The people who started the MSC offered portland 20 million to build an arena.

i have no idea if there interested or if it would even work in this situation, but just throwing that out there that it can be done.

I think it is not a bleak as you make it sound. They might sell the mountain for 7 million who knows, but they will get more then 2 million for it. Doubtful it will  be going anywhere and hopefully it can be taking to the next level or just keep it as it is, wouldnt mind either way.


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## tipsdown (Jan 4, 2013)

Wow Skibuff, that was bleak...Saddleback may have it's challenges but comparing Saddleback to Wildcat is apples and oranges. As I said in a previous post.....with it's land holdings, Saddleback has more raw potential than any other area in the East. And there's your difference. 

As Salsang pointed out, the new buyer will want and get (if Berry's are truly serious about selling) a large chunk if not all of the 8,0000 acres. Otherewise it's a raw deal and your theory holds more water. But most mountains don't spin a profit on the ski operation and Saddleback is no different. For them, they have to capitalize on true 4 seasons and offer a variety on non-ski options. Wildcat doesn't have that luxury.


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## tipsdown (Jan 4, 2013)

Speaking of which.....there's a rumor going around up there that LL Bean may be interested.  Anyone else hear that?


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## Nick (Jan 4, 2013)

First I've heard of it. That would be interesting .. does LL Bean own any other physical resort type assets?


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## tipsdown (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't believe so.  However as someone on the thread pointed out earlier, they did look at Sugarloaf and Sunday River after ASC went belly up....

Saddleback seems to fit their vibe and model more than SR and SL....Definitely interesting, not sure how serious it is at this point but seems to be a good fit...


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## tipsdown (Jan 4, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> If I'm spending 12 million I want to know where the other 300 vertical is.




There's no conspiracy theory. The vertical is a true 2,000 ft as the South Branch Quad loads at 2120. You can't go by Google Maps however. It still has the old images (pre 2006?) where there was only a T bar line that loaded around 2280. That was removed and a quad was installed further down the mountain to expand the beginner area. 

The only technicality is that lift service stops around 4020. The last 100 ft is hike-to. As a side note, permitted future development calls for a lift further down the mountain which would ultimately increase the vertical to about 2200 ft. 

All mountains stretch as it as much as they can. Sugarloar claims 2820 but there's about 80 ft of hike-to snowfields. Their lodge is at around 1800 elevation and there's about 400 vert. below the base lodge. Don't get me wrong, Sugarloaf ski's long but if you take lift serviced elevation and subtract the "Base Elevation" your left with about 2300 vertical....


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2013)

Nick said:


> First I've heard of it. That would be interesting .. does LL Bean own any other physical resort type assets?



They don't, but they do have their Outdoor Discovery Schools, which are fairly popular; especially the kayaking school near the home base in Freeport which has been expanded to several other locations around the country.  IIRC the initial interest in Sunday River / Sugarloaf was a consideration to continue to expand their brand beyond retail.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/1000001692

If they could purchase Saddleback and leverage the opportunities for fishing on Rangeley Lake and the numerous other outdoor pursuits available in that region, it might work.  Personally, I think a situation like Saddleback would make more sense than Sunday River / Sugarloaf did.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2013)

Allowing ski areas to claim official vertical based on hike to is ludicrous. By that measure, Stowe probably has most areas beat. Cannon could add on a bit if you want to hike to the tower. Bush could certainly tack on a few feet. Burke could go up to their tower. Etc. If Saddleback needs you to hike to ski their supposed 2000 vert then they ain't got it, plain and simple.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 4, 2013)

As mentioned it's been rumored for months. IMHO Rangely has not embraced the idea of being a ski town. Many restaurants close after the summer. As mentioned, it's a popular snowmobile desitination in the winter. Last time I was there in late fall several restaurants were closing for the season and the folks I talked to had no interest in the town becoming a ski town. destination skiers are looking for the cute ski town with shops, nightlife and interesting restaurants for aprea-ski. Rangely has no interest in being that place. Even tho the resort is only 4 miles from Rangely, it felt isolated, not a real connection socially or economically between the two.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2013)

ski_resort_observer said:


> As mentioned it's been rumored for months. IMHO Rangely has not embraced the idea of being a ski town. Many restaurants close after the summer. As mentioned, it's a popular snowmobile desitination in the winter. Last time I was there in late fall several restaurants were closing for the season and the folks I talked to had no interest in the town becoming a ski town. destination skiers are looking for the cute ski town with shops, nightlife and interesting restaurants for aprea-ski. Rangely has no interest in being that place. Even tho the resort is only 4 miles from Rangely, it felt isolated, not a real connection socially or economically between the two.


Seems like the new owners will need to take a page from Jay. But without EB5 funds, that will be difficult. But they could get some basic low key "village" things going on mountain. Surprising that Rangely isn't embracing Saddleback's emergence as a great destination. That is a lot of low hanging revenue fruit in a bad economy. Obviously though, "it takes a village" as the saying goes, a few businesses trying to capitalize does not a ski town make.

Would be interesting if LL Bean picked it up, that seems like a really good fit and good opportunities for cross promotion and branding. The "LL Bean Resort" could be a massive driver and it gives Bean something interesting to cross market itself with to appeal to year round outdoors people in multiple sports/activities. Whether they could actually make a time off it or not...


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## Edd (Jan 4, 2013)

I worked at LL Bean when I was a kid and my father did later.  They sell cross country ski gear as opposed to downhill aside from whatever equipment crosses over both sports. Never cared for that. 

I've heard this is because they encourage sports that tend towards self-locomotion but I have no idea if that's true. That would obviously change if they bought SB.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 4, 2013)

LL Bean, worked there 2001-2005, does not sell alpine skis but does sell everything else alpine from ski helmets to ski boot bags. They are very into hunting and fishing, kayaking etc which fits well into Rangely's summer/fall activities. 

Bean does do alot of stuff up at Baxter SP, guided trips and product testing. Rangely and Milinocket have alot in common. Gorgeous areas but that has not equated to big influx of tourist stuff. It amazes me that with a depressed economy due to paper mill closings Millinocket has made little effort to encourage developement. House prices are in the toilet, even before the 2008 recession. It's the gateway town to Baxter SP, an incredibly beautiful area. 

What you might classify as micro-sprawl, Millinocket has a couple of motels on the road to I95, At Rangeley, just up the hill on your way to Saddleback there is a new convenience store and a Rite-Aid(?) plus a new motel that looks like one you would see off any exit of any interstate in the country. 

Conversly, Greenville on Moosehead Lake who's ski area is basically DOA has been in the middle of a huge resort/second home development for 10 years by Plume Creek the mega huge timber company who happens to be the largest landowner in America.

One thing in common is that all 3 are primarily summer resort areas. Regarding Rangeley I get the impression that the snowmobilers and skier/riders are not exactly compatible winter groups. 

IMHO I just don't see Saddleback as a large destination ski resort. Jackson Hole would have the same problem if not for the busy JH Airport. When I was out there the resort owner brought in Delta and United by quaranteeing/underwriting unsold seats. Without an airport, train or major highway. Build it, Saddleback has done a nice job there, but I doubt they will come. Anyone have any skier visit numbers the last few winters? Sugarloaf does around 250,000 but SR doubles that to 500,000. Pretty obvious which one is more financially successful.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 5, 2013)

The town of Rangely does not close in winter. It's actually pretty active.


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## tipsdown (Jan 7, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Allowing ski areas to claim official vertical based on hike to is ludicrous. By that measure, Stowe probably has most areas beat. Cannon could add on a bit if you want to hike to the tower. Bush could certainly tack on a few feet. Burke could go up to their tower. Etc. If Saddleback needs you to hike to ski their supposed 2000 vert then they ain't got it, plain and simple.



I hear ya...But in Saddleback's case they've got More than 2k vertical ft.  It's just that their current lift infrastructure doesn't support it. 

Interesting article about Saddleback's history where it talks about a gondi line that was cut in the early 70's that was supposed to terminate just below the summit.  It would have been just OVER 2,000 vertical ft, with the 3 top-bottom runs appropriately named Hook, Line, and Sinker.  I think the new ownership should bring this idea back 

http://www.pressherald.com/life/outdoors/snowed-under-at-saddleback_2013-01-06.html


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## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2013)

I think they need to replace the Rangley Double first before another lift over there


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## St. Bear (Jan 7, 2013)

tipsdown said:


> I hear ya...But in Saddleback's case they've got More than 2k vertical ft. It's just that their current lift infrastructure doesn't support it.
> 
> Interesting article about Saddleback's history where it talks about a gondi line that was cut in the early 70's that was supposed to terminate just below the summit. It would have been just OVER 2,000 vertical ft, with the 3 top-bottom runs appropriately named Hook, Line, and Sinker. I think the new ownership should bring this idea back
> 
> http://www.pressherald.com/life/outdoors/snowed-under-at-saddleback_2013-01-06.html



Just last night I was reading this article about Saddleback that said it was once envisioned as the "Vail of the East".  Your article fits with it nicely.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> I think they need to replace the Rangley Double first before another lift over there



IMO they should have replaced the Rangeley Double before replacing the Kennabago T-Bar.  Experts don't mind T-bars, heck some prefer them to chairlifts.  Intermediates and Beginners aren't too keen on waiting in liftlines for long slow double chairs.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 7, 2013)

Sugarloaf has 10,000 beds at the base(largest in the east) and does around 250,000 skier visits. Although Saddleback has a couple od older condo complexes below the new lodge and some newer townhouses to the right of the lodge I would think they would have to build many more to simply lodge the guests they will need to be profitable. They have a very small day skier market. Even Jay has millions of people less than two hours away in Quebec. The few current motels open in the winter, including the Rangeley Inn, cater mostly to snowmobilers in the winter.


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## AdironRider (Jan 7, 2013)

ski_resort_observer said:


> LL Bean, worked there 2001-2005, does not sell alpine skis but does sell everything else alpine from ski helmets to ski boot bags. They are very into hunting and fishing, kayaking etc which fits well into Rangely's summer/fall activities.
> 
> Bean does do alot of stuff up at Baxter SP, guided trips and product testing. Rangely and Milinocket have alot in common. Gorgeous areas but that has not equated to big influx of tourist stuff. It amazes me that with a depressed economy due to paper mill closings Millinocket has made little effort to encourage developement. House prices are in the toilet, even before the 2008 recession. It's the gateway town to Baxter SP, an incredibly beautiful area.
> 
> ...



I agree with you across the board. However, I dont think the airport being there makes Jackson a viable place in the winter exclusively. We are a tax haven (if you want to call it that in comparative terms to the rest of the US), and big money has always been here, that airport would be there whether Jackson Hole the ski area was there or not if you ask me. No doubt though the ski area, and most of the surrounding major hotels pay hefty fees to keep the place open to the extent that it is though. THink quarter mill just for a hotel, I imagine the resort paid much more. At least some transferable passes are included in the deal for most of the people in the AIR program. 

I never understood the clash between skiers and bilers. For people who enjoy it the most in winter its odd how there is little overlap, especially on the East Coast. Out here at least you have the sled access crews for BC tours. That being said, as someone who's experienced hill climb weekends as well, each sport definitely has its own culture to put it lightly. 

Still though, regardless of demographic preferences, from the towns standpoint, having a vibrant year round tourist economy is better than a vibrant summer tourist season and a bunch of drunks for the rest of the year.


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## tipsdown (Jan 7, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> I think they need to replace the Rangley Double first before another lift over there



Agreed. A lift on Tightline would not be priority number one but it should be something to consider. It would be the only 2k plus lift in Maine


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2013)

tipsdown said:


> Agreed. A lift on Tightline would not be priority number one but it should be something to consider. It would be the only 2k plus lift in Maine



You would like a chair from the base all the way up to the top of Tightline?  I don't see how that would be a lift that would see a lot of use.  It would have a pretty significant run out.   I know I wouldn't want to ski from the Kennebago Steeps all the way down to the base.


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## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2013)

I would go with replace the double then maybe false peak. Could move the double to there.


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## tipsdown (Jan 7, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> You would like a chair from the base all the way up to the top of Tightline?  I don't see how that would be a lift that would see a lot of use.  It would have a pretty significant run out.   I know I wouldn't want to ski from the Kennebago Steeps all the way down to the base.



i think it would make some sense with additional trail development to the east. Without studying a map I believe there's less run out further east. Lower tight line currently exists and it's marked as a blue. It begins to run out when it jogs  back toward the lodge instead of following the fall line away from the lodge to the east.  If you added lower extensions to the trails lookers left of Tightline and groomed a few of them you get some long cruisers. There my be better lift options that access slightly less vertical but this still could be a viable option...


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## riverc0il (Jan 7, 2013)

The run out from the Kennebago to the lodge is super flat, very boring skiing. The current lift setup is ideal. I don't know what they were thinking when they originally cut that line (well, besides wanting a T2B lift for marketing purposes). The current setup wins. I disagree with DHS on replacing the double before the t-bar. I skied there when the t-bar was in and there was never any one up there. That t-bar scared away a lot of potential guests. Fixed grip quad? Win. The double needs to go for sure, but I think they did it in the right order.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2013)

I guess I just view there being a larger demographic of skiers (read: beginners thru advanced intermediates) that would appreciate the terrain off the Rangeley serviced by a HSQ than the demographic of skiers appreciating the Expert area of the mountain serviced by a chairlift over a T-Bar.  

A lot of mountains are known for the quality of their expert terrain (Saddleback being one of them), but having decent cruising terrain accessed by good lifts is the bread and butter to bring in families looking for a viable big mountain alternative in Maine to SL and SR.


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## riverc0il (Jan 7, 2013)

Excepting the headwalls (easier bypassed) and the glades, the Kennebago area is a steep groomer paradise. It isn't the blue square gold mine of something like Loon's Kanc Quad but it is entirely serviceable as a pod for the upper intermediate and lower advanced skier ready to push their boundaries a bit and certainly for an advanced skier or family that enjoys something with pitch. I don't see that pod as an expert only pod. But I certainly see your point that a high speeder for the cruising terrain would have helped a lot. But crazy as it might seem, when families are picking out places to go, they don't know a Blue Hills black from a Saddleback black and they'll look at a trail map and see a major pod serviced by a t-bar and wonder WTF?


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## xwhaler (Jan 8, 2013)

Agree with River on this one. The great thing abt the Kennebago quad is 2 fold. 1) You can ski with a group up there and hit everyting from an easy blue (America) to Casa #1/Dark Wizard and still all meet back and ride the lift up. The variety of terrain up there is great. 

2) There is some great terrain off the Rangeley that can also be skied using the quad. Upper Intimidator Glades, Peachy's Professor, Jane Craig, Upper Thrombosis are all great advanced/expert runs that you can run down and hook back up on the Pass back to the quad. 
My group of friends doesnt mind the double since we really only use it to start our day. After lunch we often will do some laps over on the T which has some nice cruisers.


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## billski (Jan 8, 2013)

*"John, would you have any interest in buying an unnamed ski area in Rangeley, Maine?"*

Fascinating article by John Christie, former owner of Saddleback 

""If Maine has a chance, it will probably be through the best efforts of  not only the environmentalists but a new breed of businessmen as well --  men who want primarily to see their state develop rather than be  developed. There are strong indications that John Christie fits that  pattern. He's coming home to Maine from the big-time national ski world  in order to develop Saddleback Mountain. One thing is certain, we'll  know a bit more about John Christie and Saddleback Mountain 10 years and  30 million dollars from now.""  - I. William Berry, 1973

The Portland Press Herald, January 6, 2012


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