# Electric Cars/Trucks and winter weather testing with results. What do you think? Who has taken one in Freezing cold long distance to a Ski mountain?



## MidnightJester (Oct 16, 2022)

Just like my smart phone or Go-pro camera they both do worse in the Cold and especially freezing weather. Driving 60MPH in 20MPH blowing freezing cold has to do a number on battery reactions to generate electricity in a modern electric car.
I have seen a few tests about driving in Freezing cold with Electric cars and they lose up to 30% of their estimated charge/distance available driving on mostly flat terrain. What does Ski mountain driving do to travel distance? Remove 40-50% of charge and distance available from Maximum warm distance.









						Range test: How far can electric cars go in winter?
					

Last summer, we drove 10 electric cars until they died to find out their real-world ranges. But now we’ve repeated the test in the chill. So, how much difference does temperature make?




					www.whatcar.com
				



This test was done at 37F(3c) to 45F(7c) not even below freezing of 32F(0c).

I was at a ski mountain in VT last winter and saw a person come back to his plugged in car in the parking lot at 4pm-ish and he was upset that after all day(8hrs) plugged in he was only at 65% charge(no idea on his starting charge). They charge worse in the cold too.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 16, 2022)

Taking a Electric car and making it to the Ski mountain is only half the Electric cold war. You hopefully started at a full charge to get there now your charge could be anywhere to make the trip back home

When a electric car/truck can get 600 miles regular and 300miles+ in the freezing cold they will be KINDA ready for the mountains. Not counting doubling the charge or mileage doubles the charging time


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## skef (Oct 16, 2022)

I own a Tesla Model Y and live in greater Boston. Took delivery of the vehicle in mid-2020 and made my first ski trip with it in the mid-pandemic 2021 ski season. Back then, if you played by the COVID rules, the only real option for daytripping was to stay in MA. Wachusett was a zoo that year, so after a couple of days of that I looked around and discovered Berkshire East. Took my first trip there in late January, on (as I remember) a day that started out at 5 degrees F. I figured that, with a nominal 300ish mile range, I could do the round trip without charging along the way.

This was my first long-ish, way-cold trip with the Y, and I made a couple of rookie mistakes. First, I hauled ass on the way out, aiming for first chair. At 70 MPH you burn through battery a lot faster than at 60 MPH. So I arrived with less juice than planned, but I still thought I’d be fine. Second, I didn’t appreciate how much power the battery management system would need to keep the batteries at a safe temperature over the course of the cold day. That cost a good bit of range. When I was finally done skiing and got back in the car I was a bit alarmed. The nav system knows the Tesla charging network, of course, and it directed me to the Lunenberg (I think) supercharger station, which I made with a small enough number of miles to spare that I was sweating. 10 or 15 minutes later, I had enough more than charge to get home.

Re: “doubling the charge or mileage doubles the charging time” — that’s actually not the way it works, with high voltage DC chargers. When the car is at 20% or less, the initial charging is _extremely_ fast — 10 miles of range per minute (600 per hour). Above 80%, things taper off to a few miles per minute. But usually, you don’t charge above 80% (but you can, over night, before a long trip…).

Once the restrictions were relaxed (late spring that year), I took trips to NH, ME, and VT. A 10-15 minute stop at a supercharger on the way up was all I needed to get there. Both Killington and Sunday River have free on-site chargers that I’ve made good use of. I don’t keep records of this stuff, but I think after an all-day-plugged-in at K I can make it home without a stop. Might need a quick top-off when coming back from SR. No on-site chargers at Loon ski parking lots (yet?), but 10 minutes at River Walk does the trick.

Yes, it’s not as convenient as burning gas. But it’s not all that bad, really. A little planning goes a long way.

I don’t have snow tires on the Y, and so a few times last year I had to take my Audi A5 up to ski country instead. It was nice to drive faster and make fewer stops, but I put a bunch more kilos of carbon into the atmosphere each trip. The A5 is long in the tooth and will be replaced with a BMW i4M50 in a few months. Then I need to decide which car gets snows. And I’ll discover what life with an EV is like that’s not on the Tesla charging network.


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## Edd (Oct 16, 2022)

The electric infrastructure in northern New England is non-existent, relatively speaking. CA and MA requiring all-electric by 2035 seems unreasonable. Hybrid is much more reasonable. We have a hybrid and love it.


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## Dickc (Oct 16, 2022)

I drive a big gas powered SUV, and cannot wait until all of you go electric so gas prices drop like a rock.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 16, 2022)

Edd said:


> The electric infrastructure in northern New England is non-existent, relatively speaking. CA and MA requiring all-electric by 2035 seems unreasonable. Hybrid is much more reasonable. We have a hybrid and love it.



My new work van is a Sienna Hybrid.  Replaced a Sienna with a V6.  Both have AWD and same size tank. Averaging 550 miles per tank with the hybrid vs 375 in the V6 and only a minor drop in power.  I'm a believer.


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## RH29 (Oct 16, 2022)

Dickc said:


> I drive a big gas powered SUV, and cannot wait until all of you go electric so gas prices drop like a rock.


Supply and demand, my friend. If gas use goes down because of the new electric laws, the oil tycoons will lower supply so they can keep getting a pretty penny.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

A quick check of Vermont says they have 300 charging stations in all of Vermont at some point this year(they claim that's best in America by population). Best wishes on getting a charging spot on the fly when running out or delayed in the cold. I have issues finding a gas station open at 3am in VT when running out of gas sometimes and there are a lot of them.

A Level 2 charging port outdoors in a blizzard of VT or elsewhere while on low charge must be a nightmare to behold.

Even 20 electric cars at most ski mountains would quickly fill up a town of available charging spots till someone would be leaving without a proper charge. For example the town of Stowe has 21(Level 2) chargers and only 1(level 3), Killington has 54 chargers and that is in the whole town including some at the mountain. They expect 10,000cars for the Woman's world cup race in town and around.  The electric hummer would take 24hrs on a level 2 at best charging rate but you can only charge 8-hrs or so while riding. So you can only get 30-40% additional charge while riding at most charging ports(level2). The Level 3 charging locations are not usually where you are


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

skef said:


> I own a Tesla Model Y and live in greater Boston. Took delivery of the vehicle in mid-2020 and made my first ski trip with it in the mid-pandemic 2021 ski season. Back then, if you played by the COVID rules, the only real option for daytripping was to stay in MA. Wachusett was a zoo that year, so after a couple of days of that I looked around and discovered Berkshire East. Took my first trip there in late January, on (as I remember) a day that started out at 5 degrees F. I figured that, with a nominal 300ish mile range, I could do the round trip without charging along the way.


Was wondering what was your approximate mileage you were expecting each way?
Last season my seven or so Vermont Ski and Boarding trips were usually 300 to 350miles each way on average without extra stopping.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 17, 2022)

The hybrid is the clear winner at least in the near term until we can invent better battery options.  Its unfortunate that they aren't offered in more vehicle models.  For instance Subaru only offers a hybrid in the Crosstrek.  Its a fine car, I bought a non-hybrid for my son, but I need something a little larger like the Forester or Outback.

Another potential flaw to the all electric vehicle is just the electric infrastructure in general.  the entire country's electric grid is largely very old and fragile. Regardless of green technology, our infrastructure needs much much more investment just to be stable.  Its actually rather embarrassing that we've let it slide into the disrepair that it is...


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## NYDB (Oct 17, 2022)

I have a rivian r1t on order with the Max pack.  I’ll have a charger at the VT house.  We’ll see how it goes.  I find out this month when I can get it, but I’m thinking I’ll be using it winter 23/24 as my ski country vehicle. Rivian has delayed the max pack production. 
  If I use the ferry on the trip I don’t anticipate any problems with range.  Driving around could be dicey as its 290 miles door to door.  400 mile range expected.  we shall see.


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

EV's are a hoax and there sure are enough dumb people out there to buy one. Can't wait for MA to ban gasoline powered cars, like CA. It will help reduce crowding on NH highways and ski slopes.


Dickc said:


> I drive a big gas powered SUV, and cannot wait until all of you go electric so gas prices drop like a rock.


I couldn't agree with you more. The EV crowd also needs to be taxed based on how many miles they drive; they have to pay their fair share of highway taxes. It will be laughable when we are on the highway in our big SUVs, speeding past their idling EVs that are getting a charge. We will be well on our way for the first chair and first tracks on powder days. It will be hilarious when two indoctrinated-ignorant-radical-liberal-socialist-communists, one from Cambridge, MA, and the other from Manhattan, NY, get in a fight over the last charging station at the ski area once they finally arrive.


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## skiur (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> EV's are a hoax and there sure are enough dumb people out there to buy one. Can't wait for MA to ban gasoline powered cars, like CA. It will help reduce crowding on NH highways and ski slopes.
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more. The EV crowd also needs to be taxed based on how many miles they drive; they have to pay their fair share of highway taxes. It will be laughable when we are on the highway in our big SUVs, speeding past their idling EVs that are getting a charge. We will be well on our way for the first chair and first tracks on powder days. It will be hilarious when two indoctrinated-ignorant-radical-liberal-socialist-communists, one from Cambridge, MA, and the other from Manhattan, NY, get in a fight over the last charging station at the ski area once they finally arrive.



That's basically what people riding horses said about cars in the early 1900's.


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## Edd (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> EV's are a hoax and there sure are enough dumb people out there to buy one. Can't wait for MA to ban gasoline powered cars, like CA. It will help reduce crowding on NH highways and ski slopes.
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more. The EV crowd also needs to be taxed based on how many miles they drive; they have to pay their fair share of highway taxes. It will be laughable when we are on the highway in our big SUVs, speeding past their idling EVs that are getting a charge. We will be well on our way for the first chair and first tracks on powder days. It will be hilarious when two indoctrinated-ignorant-radical-liberal-socialist-communists, one from Cambridge, MA, and the other from Manhattan, NY, get in a fight over the last charging station at the ski area once they finally arrive.


Cool post


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

skef said:


> I own a Tesla Model Y and live in greater Boston. Took delivery of the vehicle in mid-2020 and made my first ski trip with it in the mid-pandemic 2021 ski season. Back then, if you played by the COVID rules, the only real option for daytripping was to stay in MA. Wachusett was a zoo that year, so after a couple of days of that I looked around and discovered Berkshire East. Took my first trip there in late January, on (as I remember) a day that started out at 5 degrees F. I figured that, with a nominal 300ish mile range, I could do the round trip without charging along the way.
> 
> This was my first long-ish, way-cold trip with the Y, and I made a couple of rookie mistakes. First, I hauled ass on the way out, aiming for first chair. At 70 MPH you burn through battery a lot faster than at 60 MPH. So I arrived with less juice than planned, but I still thought I’d be fine. Second, I didn’t appreciate how much power the battery management system would need to keep the batteries at a safe temperature over the course of the cold day. That cost a good bit of range. When I was finally done skiing and got back in the car I was a bit alarmed. The nav system knows the Tesla charging network, of course, and it directed me to the Lunenberg (I think) supercharger station, which I made with a small enough number of miles to spare that I was sweating. 10 or 15 minutes later, I had enough more than charge to get home.
> 
> ...



Please continue to ski at Berkshire East and stay out of NH and VT and Maine.


skiur said:


> That's basically what people riding horses said about cars in the early 1900's.


There's a big difference. It wasn't mathematically and scientifically impossible for everyone to switch from horseback to internal combustion engine vehicles. There has always been enough fossil fuels, and there still are enough fossil fuels to last centuries, that allowed the switch to automobiles. It is 100% impossible for everyone to switch to EV's, the math and science do not add up. It is impossible to produce enough electricity for everyone to have an EV. It would take over 8,000 new power plants if everyone plugged in an EV everyday. It is impossible to install charging stations for cities with over a million people in them-again it is scientifically impossible. It is impossible for ski areas to install hundreds of thousands charging stations in their parking lots.  In addition, there are not enough raw earth materials available to replace fossil fuels-again scientifically impossible. Never mind that China owns/controls most of the raw earth deposits. Follow the math and science and it is 100% impossible to live with out fossil fuels.


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## drjeff (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Please continue to ski at Berkshire East and stay out of NH and VT and Maine.
> 
> There's a big difference. It wasn't mathematically and scientifically impossible for everyone to switch from horseback to internal combustion engine vehicles. There has always been enough fossil fuels, and there still are enough fossil fuels to last centuries, that allowed the switch to automobiles. It is 100% impossible for everyone to switch to EV's, the math and science do not add up. It is impossible to produce enough electricity for everyone to have an EV. It would take over 8,000 new power plants if everyone plugged in an EV everyday. It is impossible to install charging stations for cities with over a million people in them-again it is scientifically impossible. It is impossible for ski areas to install hundreds of thousands charging stations in their parking lots.  In addition, there are not enough raw earth materials available to replace fossil fuels-again scientifically impossible. Never mind that China owns/controls most of the raw earth deposits. Follow the math and science and it is 100% impossible to live with out fossil fuels.



When the politcians start setting arbitrary dates that they desire for elimination of the sale of gas powered vehicles and only selling EV's that is sooner than it takes most any type of power plant that would be needed to supply the added electrical demand to undergo a permitting review and construction process, you've got a flawed system for sure. Let alone the other fact that it seems like more older, but still usuable power generating plants of various kinds, are coming offline before new power generating plants of various kinds can be built and come online, all the while our power demand is going up, there are some serious issues with how the math to make it all work is going to happen, regardless of what the politcians would like


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

When Thomas Edison developed DC electricity and George Westinghouse developed AC electricity, there was a huge debate over which current would work in the modern world. Along came Nikola Tesla, who proved using math and science that DC electricity would not work for the masses. It is mathematically impossible to generate DC current to power the electric grid. You would need a power plant on every street corner. How ironic, that Tesla's name is being used as part of the EV hoax. The same math and science Tesla used proves that EVs will never will work, you would need a power station at every home, every parking lot, every ski area, every apartment building, and you would need over 8,000 new power plants. Again, follow the math and science-like Tesla did-it is impossible for everyone to drive an EV.


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## NYDB (Oct 17, 2022)

straight to multiple strawman arguments.  predictable


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## mister moose (Oct 17, 2022)

skef said:


> I own a Tesla Model Y and live in greater Boston.



There are some gains in cleaner emissions due to the economies of scale of large scale power generation, but lets face it you're  driving a natural gas car with remote generation.


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## 1dog (Oct 17, 2022)

Energy density
image002-2.pn


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

A good read for what's to come. Its a Onion and Babylon Bee type satire news with threads and bones of truth woven into its story.








						Don Keelan: The last gas station in Vermont
					

It is not unusual for individuals, organizations, and governments to take time out when the calendar changes to a new year and look to the future. Some search for the




					www.benningtonbanner.com


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## HowieT2 (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> When Thomas Edison developed DC electricity and George Westinghouse developed AC electricity, there was a huge debate over which current would work in the modern world. Along came Nikola Tesla, who proved using math and science that DC electricity would not work for the masses. It is mathematically impossible to generate DC current to power the electric grid. You would need a power plant on every street corner. How ironic, that Tesla's name is being used as part of the EV hoax. The same math and science Tesla used proves that EVs will never will work, you would need a power station at every home, every parking lot, every ski area, every apartment building, and you would need over 8,000 new power plants. Again, follow the math and science-like Tesla did-it is impossible for everyone to drive an EV.


a power plant on every street corner? wow that does seem daunting.  If only there was a way to generate electricity on a small scale from the roofs of existing structures and open spaces.  But if that were possible, surely Edison Westinghouse and/or Tesla would have done so a century ago, because there's been no advances in technology/science in the last 100 years.  
For the record, the US has been installing over 20 gigawatts of solar capacity annually.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> a power plant on every street corner? wow that does seem daunting.  If only there was a way to generate electricity on a small scale from the roofs of existing structures and open spaces.  But if that were possible, surely Edison Westinghouse and/or Tesla would have done so a century ago, because there's been no advances in technology/science in the last 100 years.
> For the record, the US has been installing over 20 gigawatts of solar capacity annually.



Not perfect numbers.
So I just looked up a Level 2 (Juice box) can draw "40-60 amps and run 2.5KW to 11.5KW depending on output"
approximately a good solar panel that is outputting at maximum is 300W these days in perfect conditions. that is (9 solar panels to nearly 40 solar panels) per electric Car or truck and that is at a rate of half a day or more to get more then half a charge. This means the panels cant power your house or charge some reserve battery for darkness when panels don't work yet on star light.

Additionally you need extra or almost twice the panels in the sun then you could ever use on average so you can charge a equivalent electrical storage battery for night or bad weather usage. Solar panels can either run something or charge something. If you do both you are spiting a number that has to equal the same maximum total for output. You need 2 panels to do the work of 1 to build a equivalent battery reserve with some grey area for higher usage

When solar panels eventually put out 1000W(1KW) or more per panel for the same size panel as today then we are in real solar powering technology for todays standards. Batteries will have to come down in price too.


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## skiur (Oct 17, 2022)

Most on-grid solar in the USA does not have batteries.  It used net metering so when your producing more than you use it puts that electric back into the grid and spins your meter backwards so you get credited that extra production to use while you are generating less power than you are using.


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

HowieT2 said:


> a power plant on every street corner? wow that does seem daunting.  If only there was a way to generate electricity on a small scale from the roofs of existing structures and open spaces.  But if that were possible, surely Edison Westinghouse and/or Tesla would have done so a century ago, because there's been no advances in technology/science in the last 100 years.
> For the record, the US has been installing over 20 gigawatts of solar capacity annually.



A wind mill and solar panel on the roofs of existing structures generating electricity on a small scale. Once again your math and science does not add up. You and Edison have a lot in common. Poor at math.


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## 2Planker (Oct 17, 2022)

Look at the Elec bike market.  Now it's on to Elec motorcycles.
Next is Snowmobiles and ATV's...
 I'll stick w/ my gas guzzeling 65 Ford V8 any day


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Look at the Elec bike market.  Now it's on to Elec motorcycles.
> Next is Snowmobiles and ATV's...
> I'll stick w/ my gas guzzeling 65 Ford V8 any day


I love my 1974 Ford F100.....8 miles per gallon....Oh my God (I mean mother earth)....I'm destroying the planet.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

skiur said:


> Most on-grid solar in the USA does not have batteries.  It used net metering so when your producing more than you use it puts that electric back into the grid and spins your meter backwards so you get credited that extra production to use while you are generating less power than you are using.



That credited back for extra electric production is now messed with where I live. In theory it was ok but now they don't give you true market value they sell it for.
They used to give you say 12c credit you paid if you bought electricity from them but now they give less to make a profit on your generated electricity.


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

The US uses 4,222 terawatts a year. One terawatt equals 1,000 gigawatts. 
So that's 4,222,000 gigawatts a year. Currently, the US produces 27 gigawatts a year of solar energy. Only four million-two hundred twenty-one thousand nine hundred seventy gigawatts to keep pace. If everyone is forced to buy an EV, add at least 25% more electricity needed. That would be 5,277 terawatts a year equals 5,277,000 gigawatts. Please do the math; living without fossil fuels is impossible.


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## NYDB (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> The US uses 4,222 terawatts a year. One terawatt equals 1,000 gigawatts.
> So that's 4,222,000 gigawatts a year. Currently, the US produces 27 gigawatts a year of solar energy. Only four million-two hundred twenty-one thousand nine hundred seventy gigawatts to keep pace. If everyone is forced to buy an EV, add at least 25% more electricity needed. That would be 5,277 terawatts a year equals 5,277,000 gigawatts. Please do the math; living without fossil fuels is impossible.


dude, who is advocating living without fossil fuels?   (besides the voices in your head).  
solar, wind, tidal, nuclear, fossil fuels  its all going to be needed.  

and by the way, your 27 gigawatt number is dated.  131 gigawatts is the 2022 number.  average annual growth rate of 33%.


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## NYDB (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> I love my 1974 Ford F100.....8 miles per gallon....Oh my God (I mean mother earth)....I'm destroying the planet.


I have a Chevy pickup!  it burns alot of gas too!  

I love rolling coal on those hippies in their priuses! can we be truck buddies?


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

NYDB said:


> dude, who is advocating living without fossil fuels?   (besides the voices in your head).
> solar, wind, tidal, nuclear, fossil fuels  its all going to be needed.


Where the hell have you been??????


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

NYDB said:


> dude, who is advocating living without fossil fuels? (besides the voices in your head).
> solar, wind, tidal, nuclear, fossil fuels its all going to be needed.



The amount of Left and a few right thinking politicians and people that would like to have (Zero nuclear and Zero fossil fuels) is scary. I  cant put a number on it but it is scary. They have been shutting down Coal plants and Nuclear plants all over the world for a while and 3 states have passed laws or set a goal of no Gas cars, mowers, etc by 2035. That seems like a lot of "Advocating" they are attempting to do it as we are here now.


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## 1dog (Oct 17, 2022)

Forget ( for a minute, but not forever) the filth and destruction that is caused by mining for batteries ( lithium, nickel, cadmium, etc.) what about the energy required to make the view-destroying wind turbines?
Well worth the read- gives plenty of pause to giving governments any power is deciding 'whats best for the public'. 
Cliff Note version:

A 3-MW wind turbine contains up to 4.7 tons of copper. Half is from the cable and wiring, 24% from the turbine/power generation components, 4% from transformers, and 19% from turbine transformers. Onshore wind farms use approximately 7,766 lbs. of copper per MW. /4














						Reality Bites Wind
					

It is an article of faith among many governments that we are in the midst of a transition from fossil fuel energy to 'renewable' wind and solar. (Notably absent from this consensus are China, India and Russia.) In fact, no such transition is underway; wind and solar account for only a derisory...




					www.powerlineblog.com


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## flakeydog (Oct 17, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> The US uses 4,222 terawatts a year. One terawatt equals 1,000 gigawatts.
> So that's 4,222,000 gigawatts a year. Currently, the US produces 27 gigawatts a year of solar energy. Only four million-two hundred twenty-one thousand nine hundred seventy gigawatts to keep pace. If everyone is forced to buy an EV, add at least 25% more electricity needed. That would be 5,277 terawatts a year equals 5,277,000 gigawatts. Please do the math; living without fossil fuels is impossible.


That's right kids, it's impossible. We should not even try.

The computer I am using to read and respond to this silly message board would have been housed in a large warehouse rather than sitting on my desk 60 years ago but that's different, EVs will never work.

Computing power has increased 1 Trillion-fold in the last 60 years but that's different, EVs will never work.

Modern products from TVs to light bulbs to snow guns use a fraction of the electricity they used to but that's different, EVs will never work.

We are looking at commercial space flight, have Rovers on Mars and landed on an asteroid but that's different, EVs will never work.

I can mow my lawn, snowblow my driveway, cut and assemble lumber with battery power but that's different, EVs will never work.

It's too bad because EVs seemed like a good idea. But as the saying goes, if something looks too hard you probably shouldn't even try- It's impossible!


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## Granite1 (Oct 17, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> That's right kids, it's impossible. We should not even try.
> 
> The computer I am using to read and respond to this silly message board would have been housed in a large warehouse rather than sitting on my desk 60 years ago but that's different, EVs will never work.
> 
> ...


Edison had the same reasoning towards Tesla and was unable to comprehend the math....just like you.


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## skiur (Oct 17, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> That's right kids, it's impossible. We should not even try.
> 
> The computer I am using to read and respond to this silly message board would have been housed in a large warehouse rather than sitting on my desk 60 years ago but that's different, EVs will never work.



On a desk? The computer I'm typing this on fits in my pocket!


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> That's right kids, it's impossible. We should not even try.
> 
> The computer I am using to read and respond to this silly message board would have been housed in a large warehouse rather than sitting on my desk 60 years ago but that's different, EVs will never work.
> 
> ...


EV's and Green technology are Great ideas and Good causes and eventually will be much better products but the difference is the Forced change over they are attempting is not the way to do it. The ripple effects will be causing a fall back of Life standards not a improvement. You are supposed to show and sell a better product and people will buy and use it. Not hurt or remove a product and force you to buy another product that fits their life compass and doesn't work on the path you choose to take.

almost 25% of Charging station were considered down and non operational








						Electric-car charging stations are becoming more common, but there's still one huge problem: Tons of them don't work
					

Researchers surveying public charging stations in California's Bay Area, a hotbed for electric cars, found that around 23% were inoperable.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




So far I have also seen just about every Green technology be attempted to be controlled by the "powers that be"
Thermostats locked at temperatures you cant change (This is in multiple states and countries around the world)








						Company locks customers from changing smart thermostats due to 'energy emergency'
					

A utility company prevented thousands of customers in Colorado from changing the temperature on their smart thermostats due to an




					mynbc15.com
				




EV Car owners told not to charge or drive(limited charge means limited driving) their EV








						Flex Alert extended to Saturday; EV owners asked to not charge vehicles during peak hours
					

With more and more drivers looking to make a change from gas to electric vehicles, making sure their vehicles stay charged could require some flexibility.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Since we can be told or forced to reduce or not to use water its one step away from doing the same with electricity to a extent they will limit your ability live your life and to do things of your own timing or choosing.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 17, 2022)

Imagine this in the Northeast in a blizzard : ( They are trying to make it a reality in 15 years or less. Within 1 year of a states switch to Zero gas car sales they will look like this everywhere unless charging times speed up incredibly


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## 1dog (Oct 17, 2022)

flakeydog said:


> That's right kids, it's impossible. We should not even try.
> 
> The computer I am using to read and respond to this silly message board would have been housed in a large warehouse rather than sitting on my desk 60 years ago but that's different, EVs will never work.
> 
> ...


Its not that ( some or even most) American's can't see great changes effected by creativity, science, etc. Its gotta be unforced progress, not mandated.

Get rid of the mandates and allow free markets to work and there will be multiple solutions. ( After all, Rockefeller asked his R&D guys to 'find a use for this by-product of kerosene - gasoline). 

Much of the innovation of the last 250 years was the product of liberty and freedom. Not regulation and government subsidies.

The example of the computing power of the Apollo program being minuscule to the I-Phone wasn't made by regulation. the hardware became commoditized - cheap enough for 'the poor' to own flat screens, couple of phones, and internet accessibility to use them. 

Let people try to make a profit unencumbered by government and watch your prediction happen 10-fold.

The Solyndra example is a small one, how about we let private capital lose its money, not ours?  There is plenty of that flying around.


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 17, 2022)

Anyone else think wind turbines and solar panel fields are ugly as hell and ruin the landscape?


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## IceEidolon (Oct 17, 2022)

Personally I think that solar and wind are less disruptive than, say, mountaintop removal coal mining. Further, the lifecycle impact of an EV, battery manufacturing and all, is less than a typical gas car. Especially since battery materials are fairly recyclable. 

If the government didn't mandate change, y'all would still be driving around spewing tetraethyl lead out your exhaust.

And thank goodness you weren't around during WW2 (or, worse, an *any participant country other than the US* during WW2) because you would have hated rationed food, gas, tires, etc.


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## kbroderick (Oct 17, 2022)

For an example of regulation speeding the innovation of private industry, consider toilets. When some places started mandating low volume toilets, they were horrendous. But one of the side effects of the mandates was greater marketplace demand, so companies responded with more R&D and we got low-flush toilets that actually work.

Would it have happened eventually? Probably.

Did the mandates speed the process?
Almost certainly.

I'm looking at EV mandates through a similar lens. Yes, we need to deal with grid upgrades as well, and distributed generation is part of that answer. But those are solvable problems.

As far as suitability of EVs for ski cars, the number of them I've seen around here suggest that they do work for some people.


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## DoublePlanker (Oct 17, 2022)

I'll stick with my legacy transportation.


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## JimG. (Oct 17, 2022)

I'd guess that most EV owners are also ICE owners.


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## Domeskier (Oct 18, 2022)

Maybe these big city druggies in their mathematically impossible cars can pay a fee to the state every time they get saved from freezing to death after their batteries stall halfway between Charles River Square and the Spruce Peak Lodge.  That should fund enough wind turbines and solar farms to make a freedom-loving roughneck's head explode all over the windshield of their rusted-out pickup.


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## MidnightJester (Oct 18, 2022)

2Planker said:


> ??  *U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement*’s


maybe ?? Diamond dealer heheheheh

Reality for EV's are they are improving and it is the short to Medium driving distances where the EV's can flurish cold or not. The Long distance driving of EV's for the spur of the moment or no planning trip are at max limit of the technology for now in the cold.


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## darent (Oct 18, 2022)

Dickc said:


> I drive a big gas powered SUV, and cannot wait until all of you go electric so gas prices drop like a rock.


I wouldn't hold your breath for that to happen,knowing the government they will make gas $15.00 dollars a gallon to force you to buy a EV. Then they won't have the infrastructure to charge all those EV's


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## trackbiker (Oct 18, 2022)

FCEV's are the real future. EV's are in because the electrical infrastructure for charging is mostly there. Batteries are heavy. Fuel cells are much lighter. And once there are sufficient hydrogen fueling stations available, FCEV's will overtake EV's. 
How far out is that? Not as far as you think because that is the way the trucking industry will go. They can put in their own H2 fueling stations just like they have their own diesel pumps now.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 18, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> For an example of regulation speeding the innovation of private industry, consider toilets. When some places started mandating low volume toilets, they were horrendous. But one of the side effects of the mandates was greater marketplace demand, so companies responded with more R&D and we got low-flush toilets that actually work.
> 
> Would it have happened eventually? Probably.
> 
> ...


I remember the outrage when it was announced in the mid 90’s that outboard motors had to be emissions compliant by 2006 and everyone rang the death bell for out boards.

Now outboard sales are outpacing all other forms of propulsion in the recreational boating business by a ton.


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## skiur (Oct 18, 2022)

Just like when dirt bikes and snowmobile could no longer be two stroke.  May have been a few hiccups but today's dirt bikes and snowmobiles are just as good as they old ones and more environmentaly friendly.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 18, 2022)

It’s truly amazing what American business can do when they re-invest in R&D but sometimes it takes some outside intervention to force them to and I don’t only mean guberment regulation.


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## trackbiker (Oct 18, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> It’s truly amazing what American business can do when they re-invest in R&D but sometimes it takes some outside intervention to force them to and I don’t only mean guberment regulation.


True. None of the EV manufacturers can keep up with current demand and that demand is not government regulated. It is consumer demand.


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## Smellytele (Oct 18, 2022)

all is great until lithium because hard to get.
Also…
The very process of mining lithium is not only energy-intensive and polluting, it may also be linked with destabilising the ecosystem nearby due to extensive saltwater depletion from the edge of the ‘salars’ through which lithium is extracted.


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## 1dog (Oct 18, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> True. None of the EV manufacturers can keep up with current demand and that demand is not government regulated. It is consumer demand.


4 years ago, the average Tesla S buyer had an income of $500K+ and got $7500-$10,000 rebate depending on state. Its come down, to around $250K a year, and most of the rebates have run out( Gov gives a specific # to each manufacturer). Redistribution I think Marx called it. Without subsidies and government tax breaks it would not be the 1% of all cars ( that's it, 1%) not many have considered the pollution of mining battery material. Batteries simply store electricity, they do not create it. 

Whe I compared my electric bill to two years ago - I saw a new line item - ev vehicle charge. So we are all subsidizing the industry not just from tax dollars but from electric bills.


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## 1dog (Oct 18, 2022)

__





						Rolls-Royce revealed its first electric car, the $400,000 Spectre. Peek inside one of the most luxurious EVs money can buy.
					





					www.msn.com


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## cdskier (Oct 18, 2022)

DoublePlanker said:


> I'll stick with my legacy transportation.


This does still work for the Amish. I've seen several of these up in the Finger Lakes in NY this week...


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## kancamagus (Oct 19, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Edison had the same reasoning towards Tesla and was unable to comprehend the math....just like you.


Perhaps I not the right kind of engineer, but can you expand on what specifically "the math" is makes DC electric cars unfeasible?

Again, I'm not a sparky engineer, but it's my understanding that the entire reason AC won out for the power grid over DC is due to power losses in the transmission grid. For electricity, power (Watts) = potential (Volts) * current (Amps), and power losses due are from current (Amps) squared * resistance.

What this means in let's say we have a 500 MW power plant. We can send 500 MW over power lines several ways, depending on the voltage. If we tried to send 500 MW at only 120 Volts, 500,000,000 W / 120 V = 4,166,666.7 Amps!



That's going to need a thick wire. So thick that we may be approaching like 18 c's thicccccccccccccccccc. And 41666666.7^2 * resistance of the wire is going to result in truly insane power losses, since the primary driving factor is current squared!

The way more efficient method of transmitting power is to really crank the voltage up as high as possible. Why? For a given power in Watts, volts and amps are inversely related. Crank up the volts, and you slash the amps. On a 300 kV power line, 500 MW / 300 kV = 1667.7 Amps. Still a lot, but this is actually doable. Woohoo!

The problem is that the entire power grid cannot operate at 300 kV. We need the long power lines in between power plants and cities to be really high voltage to minimize losses, but those insanely high voltages are not at all safe to be any where near. That's why the high voltage power lines are in quite tall transmission towers. So as the electric grid gets closer and closer to homes and businesses, they need to keep stepping down the voltage lower, and lower, and lower.

And this desire to change voltages is what doomed DC back in the late 1800's. Back at the time, they didn't have any fancy electronics. The transistor was half a century away. Literally the only technology they had at the time was wires arranged in various shapes. And that's not really going to do anything for DC. Without modern electronics, there's no efficient way to boost or buck (increase or decrease) the voltage of DC.

But it's super easy to change AC voltages with literally just coils of wire. Transformers were really easy to build with the technology available in the late 1800's, so "AC won".

But that's not the complete end of the story. We stick with AC for the majority of the electric grid partially because "we've always done it that way" and partly because transformers are still cheap. 

But there are limited areas of DC transmission lines in various parts of the global power grids. Why? Because many power grids are actually broken up into smaller chunks that are essentially independent. There are three independent power grids in the US, Eastern interconnect, Eestern interconnect, and Texas. And there is no guarantee that the 60 Hz frequency of the AC in each of these three US power grids are actually aligned with each other. If you tried connecting two AC power grids with a AC power line, and the AC power grids were out of phase with each other, that's essentially a dead short, and BAD THINGS_™ _will happen.

With modern electronics, it's way easier now to convert DC to AC, AC to DC, and DC to DC at different voltages. We all have dozens of things in all of our houses that do these.

So just as how both Edison and Tesla would shit a literal brick if you could travel back to 1880 and hand them one of the literal dozen of one inch cube AC to DC (aka USB port) cell phone chargers that you have in your house, let alone the smartphone that is charged by it, modern society can now use DC to act as a universal bridge between AC power grids of different voltages, frequencies, or even the same frequency but out of phase.

But again, I'm just an engineer of the non-electrical kind. The kind that takes the "Volts for Dolts" engineering class to check off a degree requirement. So I'd genuinely love to learn more from you about what specifically above is wrong. Maybe I'm just an idiot, and DC electricity is some magic voodoo. It's possible, I was drunk a lot in college, so maybe I was hungover that day. Either way, I'm always eager to learn and become a better and more well-rounded engineer, so I look forward to your specific mathematical formulas and expert testimony about DC electricity.


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## kancamagus (Oct 19, 2022)

1dog said:


> Let people try to make a profit unencumbered by government and watch your prediction happen 10-fold.


Because that worked out well:




__





						Category:Lists of Superfund sites in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Industry and capitalism does a lot of good. Way more than centrally planned economies like the Soviet Union. In fact, capitalism and democracy both seem to be the least worst systems for economic and political organization invented so far. My 401k and stocks/bonds love the market. Well, maybe not over the past year, but still.

But this doesn't mean we should blindly love and praise capitalism like the weird obesssion with Lumen as a demi god like being in the Severnece TV show.

Turns out, there are a lot of sociopathic people on the planet. If you let them run free with no rules, you get a lot of shitty negative side effects.

That's why we have rules, why we have governments, that's why companies have internal rules and make you fill out your expense reports property and use the same inane cover pages on your TPS reports. It's why practically every head-to-head sport on the planet has a referee, umpire, or similar agent to enforce the rules of the game. Every rule is written in blood. They are not all good rules, or were written well, but they started from trying to stop a problem.

The sooner we accept that this is not a black and white issue, and that the actual best result for society is well regulated capitalism, the better we'll all be.


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## kancamagus (Oct 19, 2022)

Actually on topic though, I have a few good more years left in my current truck. I'm starting to look at electric ones to replace it. The Rivian R1T with Max pack, with its ~400 mile nominal range, is leading the pack right now. I do most of my skiing at Palisades Tahoe, which is only about 120 miles each way, and Tahoe winters while cold in mornings, are pretty nice during the daytime, so I'm not super worried about battery pack loss due to temperatures. But if there are other truck options available for cheaper that offer 400+ mile range within the next few years, I'd likely switch to something else.

Before buying an electric car, I'd likely install two Level 2 chargers in my garage. One 50 Amp for faster overnight charging for the main day trip car, and one lower, maybe 20 Amp, for more of just topping off my partner's car for commuting. Or vice versa if we use different cars for travel. Rough math is 2-3 miles per kWh for a large electric vehicle / truck, and charging is about 90% efficient, so 240 miles / 2.5 kWh/mi = 96 kWh depleted from battery (excluding heating losses). 10 hours * 240 V * 50 Amp * 90% efficient = 108 kWh. So this could most likely work for fully recharging overnight for day tripping on a Saturday + Sunday weekend for us to go skiing at a Tahoe resort from two hours each way away. I'm good with that. Worst case, we stop at In and Out or Ikeda's or somewhere in Truckee for a meal and a Level 2/3 charger.

I'm not worried about electric charger availability. Society has been through large changes before that we've all just kind of forgotten about. Remember when payphones were everywhere? Then one day you looked around, and they all seemed to have disappeared overnight? Or how in like 15 years, we went from relying on AOL with their 1000 hour free floppy discs and CD-ROMs to having 3G/4G pretty much everywhere populated? How everyone had cable, to rarely anyone having it?

We're likely on the cusp of major changes. We're likely going to start seeing electric chargers everywhere, like mushrooms after rainfall. Grocery stores, restaurants, rest stops, Costco, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if 20 years from now, half of all parking spots in every parking lot had chargers. They're about to change from rare (unless you know where to look) to everywhere. And we won't even notice it. Until the moment where we take a step back, and realize, 10 years ago, there were practically none and now they seem to be everywhere.

Electric cars are going to be the new Spotify / Apple Music. Nearly ubiquitous, good enough for most people. In 1-2 decades, gasoline or diesel vehicles will be like vinyl records. Something that only grandparents will have non-ironically, because they've always had it and it's good enough for them, and some enthusiasts will have it because they like it in specific applications. But just as how no one is bringing a portable record player to listen to music on headphones on a chairlift, most gas or diesel car enthusiasts will likely all still have an electric car.

I'm also not worried about batteries, or mining, or other size effects. There's literally no free lunch in anything in life. We just have to choose the least worst. And batteries and electric cars seem to be that. And once the batteries are depleted and at the end of their lives, it's not like the elemental molecules in the pack suddenly poof out of existence. All the lithium, cobalt, manganese, etc. It's all still there, in the pack. Just degraded into various oxides or similar. Dead battery cells would basically just be like a really high grade ore. The same industrial processes that refine ore can be used to refine batteries into raw materials, to rebuild into fresh packs. Sure it's not going to be 100% efficient, but hey, at some point regardless, we're going to run out of easy to mine stuff here on earth and we're going to have to start mining the moon, Mars, and the asteroid belt. It's just what humans do. We continue to push new frontiers, and use our brains and problem solving to keep solving the most immediate problem at hand, only to develop a few more new ones. 

Let's keep pushing renewables with grid storage, let's replace all our existing 2nd generation nuclear reactors with 4th generation reactors to buy them another 40-50 years of life, and let's throw all our energy grid R&D money into nuclear fusion. Fusion is just so fricking close, like ITER. In 1960, we didn't say, wow, landing a man on the moon is hard. And expensive. Let's just stay home. We threw a ton of people and resources at the problem and we did it. The United States used to do great things. Now we just turn it into a pointless red-v-blue fight, and argue, and do nothing except sit on the ground and stare at the moon in the sky. Let's go build awesome things again.


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## icecoast1 (Oct 19, 2022)

Vail Resorts should be fun in a few years when thousands of people are fighting for charging spots for their EV's and Vail is charging outragous prices for the privilege to charge your car while you ski


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## drjeff (Oct 19, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Vail Resorts should be fun in a few years when thousands of people are fighting for charging spots for their EV's and Vail is charging outragous prices for the privilege to charge your car while you ski


There are maybe a half dozen or so, still free, chargers at Mount Snow over by the Sundance Lodge.   Doubting the free part will remain for too much longer.


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## 1dog (Oct 19, 2022)

Stopped in a Tesla mall site a few years ago - waiting for my Apple appt. ( why else would I be in a mall?) fellow said ' in two years they will stop free charging but look at it this way. Gas today is $2. charging your car is 25% of price of gas generally. So it is/was $.50 on a 300 mile charge. His calculation on a prepared sheet was 25 MPG at $2 would cost $24 and the charge would be $6.

Still free 4 years later? I can't answer that.
 'doesn't mean we should blindly love and praise capitalism'
Kang, of course not, its actually the other way around with government. How many pages of IRS code? How many bureaucrats running EPA/NEA/FDA and on and on. . . .30 years ago an aide was standing in front of the USDA- a MASSIVE building if you have not seen it in DC. Congressman says to him, ' see that? Not one farmer in that entire building.'


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## RichT (Oct 19, 2022)

Got this notice with my Central Hudson bill today...........



*MARKET SUPPLY PRICE NOTICE*International, national and regional forces continue to contribute to energy market supply price volatility. Standard rate electric supply prices increased from 13 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) in September to 16.9 cents per kWh, effective Oct. 12. Meanwhile, natural gas supply prices declined from 97.8 cents per hundred-cubic-feet (ccf) in September to 78.8 cents per ccf as of Oct. 3.
Supply costs are one component of your energy bill. Central Hudson purchases electricity and gas from third-party suppliers on behalf of customers. Supply rates continuously fluctuate, up and down, based on energy markets.* These supply costs are not marked up by Central Hudson and Central Hudson does not profit from them.*


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## 1dog (Oct 19, 2022)

Juice goes upon 30% while nat.gas down by 20%?

Long way to go on EV's: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/very-difficult-electric-vehicle-15-hours-178-miles


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## Granite1 (Oct 19, 2022)

In addition to EV owners having to pay their fair share of highway taxes based on the miles they drive, they also need to pay a large surcharge for the electricity they use to charge their batteries. This would be to pay for the planned infrastructure to build charging stations.


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## NYDB (Oct 19, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Where the hell have you been??????


by 2050.  not next week.  I thought you were talking about the here and now.  or the next 5 years. or 10 years.


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## NYDB (Oct 19, 2022)

SteezyYeeter said:


> Anyone else think wind turbines and solar panel fields are ugly as hell and ruin the landscape?


not as ugly as our continued deterence to Saudi Arabia


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## skiur (Oct 19, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> In addition to EV owners having to pay their fair share of highway taxes based on the miles they drive, they also need to pay a large surcharge for the electricity they use to charge their batteries. This would be to pay for the planned infrastructure to build charging stations.


I agree with the EV owners have to pay their share of the highway taxes, but it doesn't seem like this will be difficult to implement.  As for the surcharge for amount of electricity used, this has always happened near me, when you use a certain amount you are put into a different tier.


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## SteezyYeeter (Oct 19, 2022)

NYDB said:


> not as ugly as our continued deterence to Saudi Arabia


well quite literally it is, but i do agree (?) that we should be energy independent.


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## SenorQuesadilla (Oct 19, 2022)

Out of nearly every man-made piece of equipment related to energy production I can't think of one more aesthetically pleasing than a windmill.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 19, 2022)

right? wind power looks awesome, and solar power just sits in empty fields or on the top of flat buildings. the tired ass arguments of old angry white men in here are lame as fuck.


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## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> right? wind power looks awesome, and solar power just sits in empty fields or on the top of flat buildings. the tired ass arguments of old angry white men in here are lame as fuck.


Says the man who lives in an ugly city where open space is already nonexistent.

Personally not against wind or solar.


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## skiur (Oct 19, 2022)

Solar fields and wind turbines definitely look better than powerplants.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 19, 2022)

as an aside, i rented a tesla3 this past weekend in portland.

some stray observations
- i should have done a minimal amount of research before i got the car, because i couldn't figure out how to turn the thing on for way too long. eventually realized i needed to place the key card at a random unmarked spot behind the cupholders while touching the brake
- the 'fixed gear bicycle' drive style takes a lot of getting used to. the car not coasting when you stop accelerating is a weird sensation. apparently this can be toggled in settings.
- i had the lowest level tesla, and the range was not very good. our airbnb hosts were tesla drivers and they let us plug into their home charger one overnight, but on other days i had to budget 20-30 min for a supercharger, and my routes were entirely dependent upon the availability of superchargers. we went to the coast one day and up to mount hood the other day, but we had to very specifically plan our routes and timing and not deviate much. EVs with low range take away a lot of the spontaneity and 'freedom' of driving
- once i figured out the quirks and got comfortable with charging logistics, it was a very fun ride. bigtime acceleration. some very fun features in the operating system, and the integrated streaming video, spotify, etc with full computer monitor interface was pretty fun.
- i would never use this car for skiing, especially the kind of skiing drives i do. if it had 400 mile range, maybe. i think a hybrid SUV is prob my next car. still have some years before that.


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## trackbiker (Oct 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> - i would never use this car for skiing, especially the kind of skiing drives i do. if it had 400 mile range, maybe. i think a hybrid SUV is prob my next car. still have some years before that.


For most people a plug-in hybrid would make the most sense. The battery gets about 40 miles range. The average car is driven 12,724 mi./yr, That's 35 mi./day. Most days you would drive on the battery only. When you go on a long trip the gas engine cuts in after about 40 miles with plenty of range. One person I know who has one gets gas about once a month and they do well over the average miles per year.


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 19, 2022)

I ask people driving Teslas how much does it cost per mile to drive that thing. None of them know. 

Perhaps they cannot handle the truth


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## MidnightJester (Oct 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> as an aside, i rented a tesla3 this past weekend in portland.
> 
> some stray observations
> - i should have done a minimal amount of research before i got the car, because i couldn't figure out how to turn the thing on for way too long. eventually realized i needed to place the key card at a random unmarked spot behind the cupholders while touching the brake
> ...


Great real world results. Thank you


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## MidnightJester (Oct 19, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> I ask people driving Teslas how much does it cost per mile to drive that thing. None of them know.
> 
> Perhaps they cannot handle the truth


Cause they really don't know. All the public non free chargers have a crazy difference in costs. Do you or don't you have a membership and or location can vary the charge cost from easily 35c KW to double that I believe depending on Charger owner.

EV chargers are going to become the new ATM/Pay phone with random fees and charges added by the owner wherever he can install them.

Level 2 or Level 3 matters and they also have a squishy amount of KW you can feed a EV's battery before its fully charged. Temp and EV/Electrical load greatly cause modern EV's to recalculate driving ranges and battery space I believe. It is not locked like the gallonage in a regular Gas tank with easier inputs to figure out costs.


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## kickstand (Oct 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> - i had the lowest level tesla, and the range was not very good. our airbnb hosts were tesla drivers and they let us plug into their home charger one overnight, but on other days i had to budget 20-30 min for a supercharger, and my routes were entirely dependent upon the availability of superchargers. we went to the coast one day and up to mount hood the other day, but we had to very specifically plan our routes and timing and not deviate much. EVs with low range take away a lot of the spontaneity and 'freedom' of driving


This past summer we went to France for a week.  We stayed in Paris, but spent 2 nights in Strasbourg.  When my wife rented a car, she did it online thru a 3rd party (Expedia or something) and rented a "class" of car, thinking we would get a BMW or Audi, maybe.  We got a Tesla.  At first, we were pretty excited.  Then, the realization of needing to charge the car and planning our stops around charging set in.  Not something we even considered when we decided to do the side trip to Strasbourg.  The trip is roughly 300 miles.  We couldn't make it on a single charge.  We didn't have a good map of where the chargers were, outside of the Tesla superchargers.  Not good cell phone reception in the French countryside to find charging stations.

There are many more details to the story, but the gist of it is we wasted 5-6 hours of that part of the trip just dealing with charging related issues.  That was really the last thing we wanted to deal with or spend time on, especially on vacation in a foreign country.  I had heard Europe was all-in on EVs, but I was expecting many more charging stations.  Maybe it was where in France we were driving just didn't have the infrastructure for it.  I don't know.  But never again will I get an EV for a drive of any serious length.

It was a pretty sweet ride though.......


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 19, 2022)

kickstand said:


> This past summer we went to France for a week.  We stayed in Paris, but spent 2 nights in Strasbourg.  When my wife rented a car, she did it online thru a 3rd party (Expedia or something) and rented a "class" of car, thinking we would get a BMW or Audi, maybe.  We got a Tesla.  At first, we were pretty excited.  Then, the realization of needing to charge the car and planning our stops around charging set in.  Not something we even considered when we decided to do the side trip to Strasbourg.  The trip is roughly 300 miles.  We couldn't make it on a single charge.  We didn't have a good map of where the chargers were, outside of the Tesla superchargers.  Not good cell phone reception in the French countryside to find charging stations.
> 
> There are many more details to the story, but the gist of it is we wasted 5-6 hours of that part of the trip just dealing with charging related issues.  That was really the last thing we wanted to deal with or spend time on, especially on vacation in a foreign country.  I had heard Europe was all-in on EVs, but I was expecting many more charging stations.  Maybe it was where in France we were driving just didn't have the infrastructure for it.  I don't know.  But never again will I get an EV for a drive of any serious length.
> 
> It was a pretty sweet ride though.......



we went to tillamook cheese factory mainly because there was a supercharger on site. we didn't need to visit a massive commercial grocery store cheese facility. we would have rather spent that hour eating oysters on the ocean or some such

i also managed to lock myself out of a parking garage. we used an app to find chargers and we found an L1 charger near where we were going for drinks and dinner. we knew the L1s are slow, but figured we might as well charge for the 3-4 hours we would be in the area and not driving. we entered a parking garage and took a ticket like normal, and proceeded down a ramp and found the EV chargers. we apparently missed signage that down the ramp was for residents only and that public parking was only on the top level. we then found ourselves locked out of the lower level where the car was. finally a resident came by and got us down to where our car is and also got us out of the garage, because our ticket wouldn't open the gate. 

the charging caused me very high stress for the first 24 hours of the trip. the superchargers were all in the suburbs so i had to go out of my way or plan a charge on the way out to a day trip. 'tesla destination chargers' came in handy at a couple of businesses. but if you show up and the charger is occupied, you're fucked.


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## kickstand (Oct 19, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> 'tesla destination chargers' came in handy at a couple of businesses. but if you show up and the charger is occupied, you're fucked.


We didn't run into issues with the Tesla chargers, but we did have once where all the regular chargers were occupied in the garage we went to.  That led to us finding another garage, trying to get it to work, having lots of problems, calling tech support, they didn't speak English (our French is limited) and realizing after the call we were telling them the wrong location.  After eating dinner at the first place that could seat us (we were starving), we then had to drive 20 minutes in another direction to the closest Tesla station.  It was a clusterfuck of sizable proportions....


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## drjeff (Oct 19, 2022)

The reality is that right now, and for probably the next 5 to 10 yrs(or more) until a reliable, dependable, readily available networks of charging stations with adequate power supplied to them to reflect what so many of our actual driving habits are, that there should be more gas/electric hybrids produced than pure EV's.  You would likely also see a greater acceptance amongst the EV hesitant this way as well, and likely in a non partisan way, as unfortunately it is for some.  EV's, just like gas/diesel powered vehicles have many pro's, but for those who deny that both also do have cons, then that just isn't someone who is open to having an honest conversation about the entire picture over just some kind of glorified virtue signaling.

I will admit that I do like my wife's Volvo XC90 gas/electric hybrid that she got this past Spring.  It's great for running around town on all battery.  But for long trips, or even the 30 or so miles each way she has to/from work, the battery life isn't there, let alone for the roughly 300 miles round trip we have to/from Mount Snow from our house.  That she can do mainly on gas, but without having to stop along the way for the entire weekend.  That savings of time and not having to worry about where a charging station is and/or if there will be an available charger there and how long it will take to charge, frankly is worth in convenience wise for us, even if it offends some of the EV purests.  If I am replacing something for new technology, in general I want that technology to be atleast as good, and often better than what I am replacing. A true EV at this point, for what my familes driving habits are often, just isn't an apples to apples comparison over either a gas/electric hybrid or a straight gas powered vehicle


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## Granite1 (Oct 19, 2022)

Good luck getting your Tesla fixed when it's an accident. It has in the past, and in the future will take up to 6 months or longer to get the parts and the body shop to fix the car. Tesla requires you to use one of their certified body shops. They aren't very many Tesla certified shops (none here in NH) and they will have so many wrecked Tesla cars you'll be waiting a long time to get your Tesla fixed. Furthermore, Tesla certified shops want about twice the prevailing labor rates that insurance companies are paying, so get your wallet out to pay the difference.


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## Smellytele (Oct 19, 2022)

Okay how long are the batteries supposed to last? Not saying how long they stay charged but how long in years?


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## Edd (Oct 19, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Good luck getting your Tesla fixed when it's an accident. It has in the past, and in the future will take up to 6 months or longer to get the parts and the body shop to fix the car. Tesla requires you to use one of their certified body shops. They aren't very many Tesla certified shops (none here in NH) and they will have so many wrecked Tesla cars you'll be waiting a long time to get your Tesla fixed. Furthermore, Tesla certified shops want about twice the prevailing labor rates that insurance companies are paying, so get your wallet out to pay the difference.


If you buy a Tesla, you’re inherently agreeing to spending more $ period. It’s a new car company using cutting edge tech with all the problems that come with a luxury brand. An informed buyer should be fine with that.

I‘m not, and with limits on my income and a person who skis northern New England extensively, any EV (even mainstream car companies) just don’t work for my lifestyle. Hybrids from this point on for us, until the price points, technology, and infrastructure catch up. This 2035 goal for Massachusetts will be pushed back, I’d bet, and who knows what northern New England will do?


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 19, 2022)

kickstand said:


> This past summer we went to France for a week.  We stayed in Paris, but spent 2 nights in Strasbourg.  When my wife rented a car, she did it online thru a 3rd party (Expedia or something) and rented a "class" of car, thinking we would get a BMW or Audi, maybe.  We got a Tesla.  At first, we were pretty excited.  Then, the realization of needing to charge the car and planning our stops around charging set in.  Not something we even considered when we decided to do the side trip to Strasbourg.  The trip is roughly 300 miles.  We couldn't make it on a single charge.  We didn't have a good map of where the chargers were, outside of the Tesla superchargers.  Not good cell phone reception in the French countryside to find charging stations.
> 
> There are many more details to the story, but the gist of it is we wasted 5-6 hours of that part of the trip just dealing with charging related issues.  That was really the last thing we wanted to deal with or spend time on, especially on vacation in a foreign country.  I had heard Europe was all-in on EVs, but I was expecting many more charging stations.  Maybe it was where in France we were driving just didn't have the infrastructure for it.  I don't know.  But never again will I get an EV for a drive of any serious length.
> 
> It was a pretty sweet ride though.......


All skiers know batteries loose power (storage when cold). Does anyone know how much the storage of a Tesla battery falls off as you go from 40F to 30F, 30F to 20F and so on. I'm thinking in nature there are no linear patterns. So, it must fall off for every 10 degrees more and more, butt by how much.
E cars have great acceleration because they have nice low speed acceleration, butt if you can't do 120MPH on I93 for >1 hr what good is it?


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 19, 2022)

Tesla meow, try getting someone to turn wrenches on Audi, VW, Mercedes and those. Again Granite 1 is right. ALL of Tesla's parts still are under pattens (probably). Because Musk has the money to copy right.
I'm guessing there are mechanics that will work on a Tesla, butt that will void the paperwork.
Not sure what the margins are on anything Tesla, butt they must be sky high. Musk is like Delorean butt, a much deeper and better thinker. some of us are old enough to know how Delorean tried to bail out his manufacturing business.


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## RichT (Oct 19, 2022)

Hybrid is the ONLY way to go for the foreseeable future if EV is your choice.  For me, I prefer a internal combustion engine.


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## tumbler (Oct 19, 2022)

Probably discussed already but my issue with EV's besides distance limitations are the generation of the electricity and the amount of Co2 is generated from the mining to get the lithium for the batteries.  The electricity is coming from coal plants.  Solar and wind are just so people can feel good about themselves.  Most have no idea what is takes to mine lithium and the destruction it does.  Huge mining operations with toxic water leftover as one of the by products.  Not to mention the electric grid that would need to be totally overhauled and upsized.  Hybrid with the battery recharging when gliding, braking is the most realistic


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## abc (Oct 19, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Says the man who lives in an ugly city where open space is already nonexistent.


I happen to think city are beautiful! High rises to be exact. 

I prefer the sight of wind farm over an empty field. 

Each of their own


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## MidnightJester (Oct 19, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Musk is like Delorean but a much deeper and better thinker. some of us are old enough to know how Delorean tried to bail out his manufacturing business.


Hey the Delorean is about to be relaunched as a all Electric EV  $(125,000)    300 mile range battery. Kinda lol









						DeLorean
					

DeLorean is a legacy mobility company focused on redefining human connections through creative technologies.




					delorean.com


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## IceEidolon (Oct 19, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> In addition to EV owners having to pay their fair share of highway taxes based on the miles they drive, they also need to pay a large surcharge for the electricity they use to charge their batteries. This would be to pay for the planned infrastructure to build charging stations.


I'll point out that anyone driving a car or smaller SUV is being fleeced to pay for road maintenance - road damage increases exponentially as vehicle weight increases. Semis do something north of 95% of all highway wear and tear caused by vehicles. The correct answer is to charge by ton-miles, and just about everyone will see their road use fees drop but shipping costs rise.

Me subsidizing Amazon with my gas tax really feels great.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 20, 2022)

Wv


Granite1 said:


> Good luck getting your Tesla fixed when it's an accident. It has in the past, and in the future will take up to 6 months or longer to get the parts and the body shop to fix the car. Tesla requires you to use one of their certified body shops. They aren't very many Tesla certified shops (none here in NH) and they will have so many wrecked Tesla cars you'll be waiting a long time to get your Tesla fixed. Furthermore, Tesla certified shops want about twice the prevailing labor rates that insurance companies are paying, so get your wallet out to pay the difference.


Ever Own a Mercedes, BMW or Audi? I haven’t.
Some cars do come with a premium tho.

Name plates have never been a reason for me to buy a car.


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## skiur (Oct 20, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'll point out that anyone driving a car or smaller SUV is being fleeced to pay for road maintenance - road damage increases exponentially as vehicle weight increases. Semis do something north of 95% of all highway wear and tear caused by vehicles. The correct answer is to charge by ton-miles, and just about everyone will see their road use fees drop but shipping costs rise.
> 
> Me subsidizing Amazon with my gas tax really feels great.



Ever been on the parkways in NY/NJ/CT?  Just as beat up as the interstates.  95% of the damage is done by freeze/thaw cycles.


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## 1dog (Oct 20, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Probably discussed already but my issue with EV's besides distance limitations are the generation of the electricity and the amount of Co2 is generated from the mining to get the lithium for the batteries.  The electricity is coming from coal plants.  Solar and wind are just so people can feel good about themselves.  Most have no idea what is takes to mine lithium and the destruction it does.  Huge mining operations with toxic water leftover as one of the by products.  Not to mention the electric grid that would need to be totally overhauled and upsized.  Hybrid with the battery recharging when gliding, braking is the most realistic


Don't make them look 'under the hood' Tumbler. Its all about feeling good reducing the stuff we exhale and plants inhale, oceans, animals, etc. emit.


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## kbroderick (Oct 20, 2022)

On the suitable for long trips thing: the people I know who own EVs seem to be okay with the charging networks (in general), but I would definitely expect a learning curve if I were to rent one, just as I found a learning curve about diesel availability when I had a diesel truck.

But that also overlooks a significant detail in the US: a whole lot of US households have multiple cars and already prefer one over the other for road trips. In many, if not most cases, having one EV and one ICE or hybrid-ICE (or multiples of one type or the other). FWIW, my ex and I would've fallen into that category—her driving habits would've nicely fit most EV capabilities with overnight charging, and we were already using my truck for longer trips.

And yes, grid capabilities are a real issue. On one extreme, I'd look at Cooke City, Montana—it's a huge snowmobile destination (and also has some cool backcountry skiing), but it doesn't have much in terms of infrastructure. If a significant portion of the slednecks started showing up with electric sleds (which, IMO, is a real possibility—electric motors don't loose power at elevation like non-boosted ICE do, and they have the instant torque that mountain sledders want), the local grid would probably be in trouble. And yes, that has the potential to be even more of an issue in tourist towns than in suburbia, as many tourist towns have overall infrastructure that's more adept at supporting the year-round population than the peak population, but it is a solvable problem, and small-scale generation (particularly rooftop solar) can have a significant impact as well.


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 20, 2022)

skiur said:


> Ever been on the parkways in NY/NJ/CT?  Just as beat up as the interstates.  95% of the damage is done by freeze/thaw cycles.


Salt


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## skiur (Oct 20, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Salt


Salt  damages the cars, not so much the roads.


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 20, 2022)

Andrew B. said:


> Wv
> 
> Ever Own a Mercedes, BMW or Audi? I haven’t.
> Some cars do come with a premium tho.
> ...


One "rule" I live by is drive / own Fords. I've had a VW Jetta, Dodge (Mitsubishi) pickup and Mercury Cougar 5L V8.
Food for thought if you cost out a Ford Vs. Mercedes which is more expensive?

If you look at the brakes the Merecedes are soft and you get brake dust, butt it's a smother maybe faster stop. I don't care about that, I just want the car to stop pretty much where I'd like it,

Most of the industry is component driven. For example, SEL is a body type you see from many manufacturers who build small SUVs. Is a Ford EDGE SEL better than a Toyota Meow SEL? I don't care.

One thing I spoil myself with are windshields. When you drive fast they get pitted and it makes me (not sure the word), so I get new glass every 120,000 or so depending on if I hit a deer or Moosey. 

Steering wheels on some expensive cars are stainless. This sucks, sunlight comes in and reflects into my eyes so I black them out with electrical tape. (I always ski with a black diamond on the rear of my left ski and two on my right. This keeps people from banging their tips into my equipment in lift lines... (it doesn't always work ))


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 20, 2022)

skiur said:


> Salt  damages the cars, not so much the roads.


I've rebuilt at least 4 miles of bridges in N.H. and VT. The salt gets into a crack and then hits the rebar. In the old days the rebar was not coated.

You have to chip out ALL of the bad concrete and iron and patch the bridge. This is very expensive, time consuming and dangerous. Sometimes your 200 feet above a river or gorge. I get your point, butt there are many kinds of salt and they all do the same thing.


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## Edd (Oct 20, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> One "rule" I live by is drive / own Fords. I've had a VW Jetta, Dodge (Mitsubishi) pickup and Mercury Cougar 5L V8.
> Food for thought if you cost out a Ford Vs. Mercedes which is more expensive?
> 
> If you look at the brakes the Merecedes are soft and you get brake dust, butt it's a smother maybe faster stop. I don't care about that, I just want the car to stop pretty much where I'd like it,
> ...


What the fuck


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 20, 2022)

good old windshield replacement at 120k. forget about replacing the car. just a new windshield and we're good.


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## 2Planker (Oct 20, 2022)

HUGE Lithium discovery right in SR's backyard.
 Could be the largest ever anywhere...???

https://www.themainemonitor.org/sta...d-near-newry-excavating-it-poses-a-challenge/


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## Edd (Oct 20, 2022)

2Planker said:


> HUGE Lithium discovery right in SR's backyard.
> Could be the largest ever anywhere...???
> 
> https://www.themainemonitor.org/staggering-1-5-billion-lithium-deposit-discovered-near-newry-excavating-it-poses-a-challenge


This was posted last year here somewhere. Haven’t heard about progress.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 20, 2022)

wow. id love to find 1.5B of minerals in my yard


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## kbroderick (Oct 20, 2022)

2Planker said:


> HUGE Lithium discovery right in SR's backyard.
> Could be the largest ever anywhere...???
> 
> https://www.themainemonitor.org/sta...d-near-newry-excavating-it-poses-a-challenge/


One of the other articles indicated that there are other deposits of similar size and concentration that aren't considered commercially viable for extraction; I don't if that will change with an ongoing demand for lithium batteries or not.


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## tumbler (Oct 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wow. id love to find 1.5B of minerals in my yard


If you could mine it.  Other wise worthless.


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## JimG. (Oct 20, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> right? wind power looks awesome, and solar power just sits in empty fields or on the top of flat buildings. the tired ass arguments of old angry white men in here are lame as fuck.


You often seem to be the angriest person in here.

Just sayin.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 21, 2022)

JimG. said:


> You often seem to be the angriest person in here.
> 
> Just sayin.


Lol


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## 2Planker (Oct 21, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wow. id love to find 1.5B of minerals in my yard


The Oxford Hills have been known for tourmaline and garnet for many years.


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## bigbob (Oct 21, 2022)

Edd said:


> This was posted last year here somewhere. Haven’t heard about progress.


Maine laws make it almost impossible to mine metals. Uphill fight to get a permit to mine.


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## machski (Oct 22, 2022)

skiur said:


> Salt  damages the cars, not so much the roads.


Assuming those roads are asphalt.  See what salt does to concrete roadways, not good.


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## machski (Oct 22, 2022)

Electric cars are definitely here to stay, but mandating them exclusively, not even to allow hybrids (though I do believe CA will allow a miniscule fraction like 10% hybrid after 2035 still) is nuts.  Someday maybe the tech will be there, but 300 mile ranges dropping to what, half in cold weather or so, are not adequate to replace hybrid/ICEs yet.  And we can compare how lights have dropped in energy required for LEDs vs Incandescent bulbs but the end goal is to produce light.  Yes, there are more efficient waya to make light that run cool so you don't waste energy making a ton of heat at the same time.  To my knowledge, Electric vehicles require a weighted object to be propelled by some sort of electric motor.  To my knowledge, no new "motor" tech has been discovered to provide this power at a lower energy requirement.  So the best you can do to make electric cars more efficient is to reduce weight.  The batteries for range are heavy, which means the car itself already needs to be light.  

Electric car tech is here and it should be a component of the world auto fleet.  But the infrastructure and even the car tech isn't there for 100% now, nor by 2035.  No reason not to move towards a more robust network for it, but I don't see it practical in the timespan some imagine or have regulated already.  And while they are zero emitters at the point of drive, electric cars over their entire life cycle are more energy consumptive currently than their gas counterparts and quite a bit dirtier to the planet too when all is taken into account.  And the batteries?  Currently not really all that recyclable.  That needs to be a priority, how to make batteries fully recyclable.  Otherwise, what do we do with all the shot ones?  Stuff them in Yucca Mountain with all the spent Nuclear waste?


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## NYDB (Oct 22, 2022)

machski said:


> electric cars over their entire life cycle are more energy consumptive currently than their gas counterparts and quite a bit dirtier to the planet too when all is taken into account



do you have something to back that up?  Genuinely interested how they calculate that.    EPA says otherwise but of course they do


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## IceEidolon (Oct 22, 2022)

Rare earth metals recovery in the mid to high 90% range is advertised by multiple US recycling companies. Some companies also repurpose worn but functional packs as stationary storage.









						Are EV Batteries Recyclable?
					

Many people are working to ensure EV batteries are being reused, repurposed, and recycled



					blog.ucsusa.org


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 22, 2022)

tumbler said:


> If you could mine it.  Other wise worthless.


Agree, no way it's commercially viabIe. I used to rock hound in the area a lot. I had a place where the bear and Sunday river met. People pan for gold there and say they get specs every time. Great trout stream though. If you were allowed to dig out the bottom of Frenchman's hole... The best stuff around there is watermelon tourmaline as far as I know it's the only semiprecious stone up there worth much.

On I89 in New Hampshire there is a rock outcrop between New London and the Vermont border. In the middle of the north and south lanes, it is jagged and Black. It's very radioactive. There are a couple of places in Northern N.H. that are fenced off. It's pretty rich in uranium, butt you have to refine the hell out of it. If you were to do this: first you'd die (without the right equipment), second you would have much to explain. Getting caught ducking ropes would be nothing...


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## machski (Oct 23, 2022)

NYDB said:


> do you have something to back that up?  Genuinely interested how they calculate that.    EPA says otherwise but of course they do


I'll have to dig, but I'm not talking about their driving lifecycle.  That will beat a ICE vehicle anyday.  I'm talking when you factor in all the production energy to build the vehicle and how it will be recycled or junked at the end of it's useful life.  I've seen plenty of articles but didn't clip or bookmark them.


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## machski (Oct 23, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Rare earth metals recovery in the mid to high 90% range is advertised by multiple US recycling companies. Some companies also repurpose worn but functional packs as stationary storage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So yes it can probably be done wide scale, but currently that doesn't really happen (wide scale anyway).  They will need to figure this out and make it an almost universal process.  Every ounce of rare earth metals will be needed to expand electric vehicles to all for sure.


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## abc (Oct 23, 2022)

machski said:


> Electric cars are definitely here to stay, but mandating them exclusively, not even to allow hybrids (though I do believe CA will allow a miniscule fraction like 10% hybrid after 2035 still) *is* *nuts*.


It’s just politics. 

The politicians just pull a random number out of the calendar that‘s far enough away. They probably wouldn’t be around by the time the date come to be reality. Or they figure the public would have forgotten about it by then…

In the worst case, just blame it on the other party for why it can’t be achieved.


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## Smellytele (Oct 23, 2022)

What is the market for used electric vehicles? Battery life would keep me away from getting a used one.


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## Kevin Schultz (Oct 23, 2022)

I find the focus on range to be misguided. Electric cars obviously have worse range and take longer to "refill" than a gas or diesel car. They're known to have even worse range in the cold. But they have plenty of other benefits - they drive great, they're better for the environment, they are more spacious for a given size, cost less to operate & maintain per mile, and are simpler (leaving aside Tesla's decision to reinvent every non-drive train aspect of the car). The manufacturers should lean more into their strengths rather than constantly being defensive of their weaknesses.

Most families that buy new cars have more than 1 car. The 2nd car is for running to the grocery store or dropping the kids off at school or whichever person has a short commute. Range is just immaterial. Rarely are multiple people in the house all off on super long road trips at the same time. In which case, make the equivalent of a Tesla 3 but with half the battery. Leave all that weight, material, and cost behind. I'm certain a lot of people could live with 150 mile range for their second car, especially if it was $25K instead of 35K+. 

The idea that EVs are only relevant if they can do the thing they are worst at (driving long distances in the cold) makes no sense. But we're overshooting the markets actual needs by designing for the hardest case and that has a cost for everyone since EV production is constrained by the availability of batteries. Make twice as many EVs with half the battery size and the costs would come down for everyone (gas car owners included).


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## Kingslug20 (Oct 23, 2022)

Musk is building rockets for a reason...lot of minerals to be mined up there some day.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Oct 23, 2022)

I spent several years in the car business in my youth.  I learned many painful costly lessons.
Cars all serve 1 main purpose, transportation.  You don't need to spend a ton of $$ to get a reliable car. Look for cars with good to excellent long term* reliability *ratings from Consumer Reports and you won't get burned.  Do not buy a car in the 1st year after a major redesign.  Do not buy a car from a new manufacturer. 
Buying an EV breaks many of these rules most importantly, they are not a reliable form of transportation due the the range etc.  They are at best a risky, expensive toy for a second or third vehicle.  Hybrids made way more sense.


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## abc (Oct 23, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Cars all serve 1 main purpose, transportation.


Not all. 

If that’s the “main purpose“, we’d all be driving Toyota Camary. The fact we don’t is very telling. 

EV fills a nIche.


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## speden (Oct 23, 2022)

The current crop of EVs seem best for commuter cars, and I'd guess we're still 3 to 5 years away from electric cars being good road trip cars. My ideal EV ski car would be capable of level 3 or higher autonomous driving, and have 400 miles of range in cold weather. If DC fast chargers become plentiful along the major highways in ski country, then I could get by with less range.

We should see some significant battery improvements in the next five years, with better energy density, faster charging, and lower cost. There is a massive amount of investment in that area now. With the new incentives for battery manufacturing in the U.S., companies are flocking to build battery factories here. Tesla is making some great progress in AI for self driving, so that should become more mature in the next two years, and hopefully other manufacturers develop it too. I don't think I'll be able to nap while my car drives me to the slopes, but level 3 autonomy should make for a much less tiring drive.

The transition to renewable energy will hopefully pick up speed as well, so that EVs can be charged up on wind and solar power. I feel guilty pumping a whole tank of gas into the atmosphere when I do a day trip to ski, especially since the effects of that are becoming worse every year with record droughts, and now even the mighty Mississippi is at record low levels. The grid scale batteries that are starting to ramp up is going to make it a lot easier to shut down coal and gas fired power plants. But it's going to take some time.


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## 2Planker (Oct 24, 2022)

Both UPS and FedEx are going to Elec trucks first, then driverLESS Elec Trucks.

 Buddy just opened a EV service shop.  Booked out 2-3 months the first week he opened.

EV's are only going to increase exponentially.
I'll stick w/ my Gas Guzzling 65 Ford


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## RichT (Oct 24, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Buddy just opened a EV service shop.  Booked out 2-3 months the first week he opened.
> 
> EV's are only going to increase exponentially.
> I'll stick w/ my Gas Guzzling 65 Ford



Your buddy should do well.............


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## MidnightJester (Oct 29, 2022)

Put another check mark in the Colum that Electric trucks and cars are NOT ready for winter life. Not even close to winter long distance ready.








						Review of Ford F-150 Lightning Electric Pickup: Road Trips Are the Truck's 'Kryptonite'
					

The Ford F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck's "kryptonite" is a road trip, according to the Detroit News review of the vehicle. Auto critic Henry Payne explains that the electric truck got him "170 miles of range" on a trip up interstate 75 in Michigan, while its gasoline-powered counterpart...




					www.breitbart.com


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## darent (Oct 29, 2022)

my son just bought a Tesla, lives in the Portland Oregon area and has a 25 minute commute. The car is working great for him and he can charge it at home where he has a solar array. Owns a gas car for long drives


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## 1dog (Oct 29, 2022)

image009-copy-2.png


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2022)

I invest in this space and know it fairly well from mineral extraction to end product.  Most of the most important topics have already been covered, so I'll just briefly add the few things I've seen not mentioned.

*1) Net EV cars are mythical as a mermaid* - If you add up all the vehicles all the manufacturers (F, GM, TM, HMC, BMYWW, TSLA, RIVN, LCID, VWAGY, etc..) claim they will make in their 5'ish year plan in either their public comments or investor presentations, you arrive at a number which is quite literally, metaphysically impossible for them to manufacture due to lack of resources.  I'm floored how few people realize this and/or how nobody in the media talks about it.  I speculate it's because the media is almost all left-wing, and so doesn't want to say anything to poop on the EV party.  And of course, the manufacturers sure as hell aren't going to say anything, they need the unit numbers to justify their "bottom line" numbers, but Wall Street is increasingly aware of this, that we currently don't have the mineral capacity to hit these bogeys.  Oh, and these liberal places with their government mandated 2035 ICE ban thing?   Nope. Not happening.  Not unless we have a major breakthrough anyway.

2) *There's a Li'l problem* - The biggest problem mineral is likely lithium.  So there's not enough of it and that's the problem, right?  Yes; but actually, it's even worse than that.  The major global extractable sources of Lithium by volume are almost entirely in the hands of the Chinese & the Aussies.   The largest sources are in Australia, China, Bolivia, Argentina, and Chili, but the Chinese, in _The Ant & The Grasshopper _fashion, started buying Aussie & South American lithium mines several decades ago.  How bad is the problem?  I dont know if anyone truly knows, but I've seen experts say the Chinese control something like 2/3 to 80% of current production.  A communist nation.  Our enemy.   Awesome.  Good luck non-Chinese manufacturers.

3) *SSB to the rescue* - which brings us to Solid State Batteries, which use way less mineral, are lighter, more energy dense, and much safer than current EV batteries (anyone seen a TSLA inferno video?).  Problem is the technology is probably 5 to 10 years away from true mass production in sellable automobile models (assuming the dentrite problem can scientifically be solved).  There is the equivalent of a "space race" going on in labs right now to be the first.  You've got F and BMWYY partnered with SLDP, VWAGY and an "unknown manufacturer" partnered with QS, TM is working in their own labs, a company in New England called Factorial Energy partnered with Hyundai, SES partnered with HMC, then you've got a bunch of Chinese companies on this like BYD, etc....., and a handful of other private companies without partners all plugging away on this problem.  The reason why is the $$$$$ opportunity is GINORMOUS if you figure this out - you basically become the new oil overnight.  Not just for cars, but also for aircraft as the weight reduction is huge, so now we could talk flight.  Boats too.  The revenue opportunity is a once-in-a-generation thing, the likes of which have not been seen since 1990s internet investing (entirely IMHO of course).

4) *I'm worried about net EV safety *- Here's something I never hear anyone say (again, because IMO the entire media are EV cheerleaders), but highways are going to be more dangerous once everyone's driving insanely fast cars which accelerate like rocket ships and which are each 300 to 800 pounds heavier than their ICE counterparts?  The average car crash is probably going to have about 1000 additional pounds of mass.  No manufacturer can invent a solution to F=MA.  Not to mention, the cars are more flammable.  Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think it's odd nobody even mentions this.  My long-term prediction here (this is probably 10 or more years out) is that after highway fatalities increase in a statistically significant fashion, governments will mandate governors on EV cars to restrict their top speed as well as maximum allowable acceleration.  Think of it like NASCAR restrictor plate racing, but on our roads.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2022)

Oh, and one thing to add on the subject of current battery problems, even though it's a moot point.

Betamax vs. VHS - I'm not old enough to know, but I've heard beta was actually better than VHS, but due to poor Betamax business planning and savvy VHS marketing, VHS won out. I think a similar thing happened with EV cars. As everyone knows, the battery tech just isnt there, and the charging can be a pain in the ass unless you have a home unit. "Battery swapping", would alleviate all that. You simply drive your car to the station, and swap your nearly spent battery for a fully charged battery. Similar to changing the battery on a camping lantern. It's quicker than even filling up a gas tank, and we'd use mostly existing gas stations for this service. Instead of anxiously wondering where the next charging station is, or literally having to spend BILLIONS of dollars building out a nationwide charging network. There are a few companies in China that do this battery swapping, but in the words of Eminem, _"It's over, nobody listens to techno"_ - it's not going to happen in Europe or America. Like VHS & Beta, the battle was already lost. Conceptually, people were just too used to the idea of the "tank" being a self-contained & fixed part of the car, and IMO it's a shame, because I think battery swapping makes WAY more sense than sitting & charging in place for a whole plethora of reasons.


----------



## bigbob (Oct 30, 2022)

No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2022)

bigbob said:


> No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?


hydrogen powered EV's ?
They wouldn't be EV's (electric vehicles) if they were Hydrogen powered...


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, and one thing to add on the subject of current battery problems, even though it's a moot point.
> 
> Betamax vs. VHS - I'm not old enough to know, but I've heard beta was actually better than VHS, but due to poor Betamax business planning and savvy VHS marketing, VHS won out. I think a similar thing happened with EV cars. As everyone knows, the battery tech just isnt there, and the charging can be a pain in the ass unless you have a home unit. "Battery swapping", would alleviate all that. You simply drive your car to the station, and swap your nearly spent battery for a fully charged battery. Similar to changing the battery on a camping lantern. It's quicker than even filling up a gas tank, and we'd use mostly existing gas stations for this service. Instead of anxiously wondering where the next charging station is, or literally having to spend BILLIONS of dollars building out a nationwide charging network. There are a few companies in China that do this battery swapping, but in the words of Eminem, _"It's over, nobody listens to techno"_ - it's not going to happen in Europe or America. Like VHS & Beta, the battle was already lost. Conceptually, people were just too used to the idea of the "tank" being a self-contained & fixed part of the car, and IMO it's a shame, because I think battery swapping makes WAY more sense than sitting & charging in place for a whole plethora of reasons.


I enjoy your thoughtful commentary but I see great danger in this process. Creating a solid electrical connection that can be swapped literally hundreds of times in the life of an EV .
Wear and tear of connectors I see as a potential fire hazard as a simple loose connector can ruin your day. 

A whole new technology will need mechanics trained  to deal with the new issues. I never buy a first model year vehicle , I’ll let my neighbors do R&D for the manufacturers .


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 30, 2022)

Putting any kind of compressed gas into a moving vehicle? What could go wrong?


----------



## bigbob (Oct 30, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> hydrogen powered EV's ?
> They wouldn't be EV's (electric vehicles) if they were Hydrogen powered...


Do you live in a cave? 
The next big thing! But only in Cali for the time being.









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----------



## 1dog (Oct 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, and one thing to add on the subject of current battery problems, even though it's a moot point.
> 
> Betamax vs. VHS - I'm not old enough to know, but I've heard beta was actually better than VHS, but due to poor Betamax business planning and savvy VHS marketing, VHS won out. I think a similar thing happened with EV cars. As everyone knows, the battery tech just isnt there, and the charging can be a pain in the ass unless you have a home unit. "Battery swapping", would alleviate all that. You simply drive your car to the station, and swap your nearly spent battery for a fully charged battery. Similar to changing the battery on a camping lantern. It's quicker than even filling up a gas tank, and we'd use mostly existing gas stations for this service. Instead of anxiously wondering where the next charging station is, or literally having to spend BILLIONS of dollars building out a nationwide charging network. There are a few companies in China that do this battery swapping, but in the words of Eminem, _"It's over, nobody listens to techno"_ - it's not going to happen in Europe or America. Like VHS & Beta, the battle was already lost. Conceptually, people were just too used to the idea of the "tank" being a self-contained & fixed part of the car, and IMO it's a shame, because I think battery swapping makes WAY more sense than sitting & charging in place for a whole plethora of reasons.


I've stated that possibility for years - drive in, lower deleted battery out - install newly charged battery.

Its the entire bottom of a car, and most of the weight.

None of this solves the problem of creating energy =- batteries store - that's it. Hydrogen ( so far) takes more energy to separate the oxygen from the hydrogen to make it economical.

Betamax story is true - but we used to call Windows '95, 'Mac '88. And in the 80's Digital Equipment Corporation came up with the Alpha chip - superior to anything around but no applications because, well, it was Digital.

Why not use a 100-200 year supply of organic fuel until we find the alternative as opposed to punishing the very thing that allows cheap materials, heat and ac, food for poor people, and is reliable. How come even though for years -  10-20 maybe - everyone knew nat.gas produced half the carbon that oil does, that it wasn't promoted. Because of control. Elites want control. They don['t like freedom or liberty ( except for themselves)


I'm still not convinced that what we exhale and what plants inhale is bad for the planet.

One last question - compared to what say the US or Europe emits for carbon each year, what does a large  active volcano release/produce?


In a free society where there is profit motive, we will come up with alternatives - just let them all compete without my ( or your) money to subsidize and have unfair competition.

These support BG's take on supply. 
Good post BG. Lets talk ESG for some real debate!


----------



## skiur (Oct 30, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Do you live in a cave?
> The next big thing! But only in Cali for the time being.
> 
> 
> ...



Still not an EV.


----------



## Granite1 (Oct 30, 2022)

There's already not enough raw earth minerals (80 percent controlled by our enemy China) to produce all these EV batteries. Now you want to have 2-3 times as many to swap over?????? Who's going to pay to have all these spare batteries laying around-each one cost thousands and thousands????? In addition, 2-3 times more environmental damage, and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Oct 30, 2022)

typical stoner response… sad.


----------



## ThatGuy (Oct 30, 2022)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> typical stoner response… sad.


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 30, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> There's already not enough raw earth minerals (80 percent controlled by our enemy China) to produce all these EV batteries. Now you want to have 2-3 times as many to swap over?????? Who's going to pay to have all these spare batteries laying around-each one cost thousands and thousands????? In addition, 2-3 times more environmental damage, and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.


An ICE module with a generator that replaces the battery


----------



## Granite1 (Oct 30, 2022)

Only in fairyland can you drive your EV up to a station and have it swapped over just like that. For example, to change a long range battery in a 2022 Tesla Model 3 takes six hours. If you own one, I hope you never have to buy one---a new OEM battery cost $14,000. Don't worry though, in fairyland these drive up swap stations are going to have dozens of them just laying around to swap over.


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 30, 2022)

Fires from exploding e-bike batteries multiply in NYC — sometimes fatally
					

New York City is on track this year to record twice as many fires caused by e-bike and e-scooter batteries as last year, and four times as many as the year before.




					www.npr.org
				




Definitely an unsafe chemistry no matter how you look at it.


----------



## Granite1 (Oct 30, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


>


Everyone in fairyland is stoned, indoctrinated, immature or just plain dumb.


----------



## IceEidolon (Oct 30, 2022)

Not Sure said:


> Fires from exploding e-bike batteries multiply in NYC — sometimes fatally
> 
> 
> New York City is on track this year to record twice as many fires caused by e-bike and e-scooter batteries as last year, and four times as many as the year before.
> ...


So is gasoline. Cars have been burning up as long as there's been cars - it tends to happen with just about any material with enough energy density to run a vehicle.


----------



## SteezyYeeter (Oct 30, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> 4) *I'm worried about net EV safety *- Here's something I never hear anyone say (again, because IMO the entire media are EV cheerleaders), but highways are going to be more dangerous once everyone's driving insanely fast cars which accelerate like rocket ships and which are each 300 to 800 pounds heavier than their ICE counterparts?  The average car crash is probably going to have about 1000 additional pounds of mass.  No manufacturer can invent a solution to F=MA.  Not to mention, the cars are more flammable.  Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think it's odd nobody even mentions this.  My long-term prediction here (this is probably 10 or more years out) is that after highway fatalities increase in a statistically significant fashion, governments will mandate governors on EV cars to restrict their top speed as well as maximum allowable acceleration.  Think of it like NASCAR restrictor plate racing, but on our roads.


True but I think that manufacturers are going to go crazy with the whole safety thing real soon. Reporting you to authorities if you breaks laws, starting off with big ones and slowly adding more and more until you can't go over the speed limit without risking going to jail.


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## trackbiker (Oct 31, 2022)

bigbob said:


> No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?


Fuel Cells are the future. The only reason batteries are the current offering is because most people have access to electricity at their homes for charging. Trucks and other fleet vehicles will run on hydrogen fuel cells. They already have their own gas/diesel fueling stations where they refuel when they return to the terminal. H2 can be generated by solar power on warehouse roofs, be compressed, and used to fuel trucks and other fleet vehicles. Fuel cells are lighter than batteries and provide more equivalent MPG. Truck stops will add hydrogen fueling stations so over-the-road trucks can refuel. You don't have to have one on every corner to get started but that will eventually come. There weren't gas stations on every corner when ICE vehicles came into being.
Plug Power in Latham, NY is one of the leading companies in the technology.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Oct 31, 2022)

Kevin Schultz said:


> I find the focus on range to be misguided. Electric cars obviously have worse range and take longer to "refill" than a gas or diesel car. They're known to have even worse range in the cold. But they have plenty of other benefits - they drive great, they're better for the environment, they are more spacious for a given size, cost less to operate & maintain per mile, and are simpler (leaving aside Tesla's decision to reinvent every non-drive train aspect of the car). The manufacturers should lean more into their strengths rather than constantly being defensive of their weaknesses.
> 
> Most families that buy new cars have more than 1 car. The 2nd car is for running to the grocery store or dropping the kids off at school or whichever person has a short commute. Range is just immaterial. Rarely are multiple people in the house all off on super long road trips at the same time. In which case, make the equivalent of a Tesla 3 but with half the battery. Leave all that weight, material, and cost behind. I'm certain a lot of people could live with 150 mile range for their second car, especially if it was $25K instead of 35K+.
> 
> The idea that EVs are only relevant if they can do the thing they are worst at (driving long distances in the cold) makes no sense. But we're overshooting the markets actual needs by designing for the hardest case and that has a cost for everyone since EV production is constrained by the availability of batteries. Make twice as many EVs with half the battery size and the costs would come down for everyone (gas car owners included).


It is a relevant topic for a Northeast Ski discussion group. I am the only driver in my household so I have a single car. My enjoying driving 6-10 roundtrips from NJ to northern New England to ski every winter prevents any EV from being a viable option for me - at least until they have refillable fuel sells or quickly swappable batteries. None of their benefits outweigh the cost of having a second vehicle.


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## IceEidolon (Oct 31, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> Fuel Cells are the future. The only reason batteries are the current offering is because most people have access to electricity at their homes for charging. Trucks and other fleet vehicles will run on hydrogen fuel cells. They already have their own gas/diesel fueling stations where they refuel when they return to the terminal. H2 can be generated by solar power on warehouse roofs, be compressed, and used to fuel trucks and other fleet vehicles. Fuel cells are lighter than batteries and provide more equivalent MPG. Truck stops will add hydrogen fueling stations so over-the-road trucks can refuel. You don't have to have one on every corner to get started but that will eventually come. There weren't gas stations on every corner when ICE vehicles came into being.
> Plug Power in Latham, NY is one of the leading companies in the technology.


Fuel cells still require hydrogen storage and hydrogen production with all the extra infrastructure, expense, and complexity that comes with it. Right now, that's a huge deal breaker. I can't see that displacing BEVs without something really novel happening. Most people won't buy something with an energy cost of $6 per gallon equivalent (currently hydrogen is substantially higher than that, like $15/gal equivalent) when an alternative is available (either legacy ICE or BEVs). As a relatively niche market like biodiesel now, maybe.


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## trackbiker (Oct 31, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Fuel cells still require hydrogen storage and hydrogen production with all the extra infrastructure, expense, and complexity that comes with it. Right now, that's a huge deal breaker. I can't see that displacing BEVs without something really novel happening. Most people won't buy something with an energy cost of $6 per gallon equivalent (currently hydrogen is substantially higher than that, like $15/gal equivalent) when an alternative is available (either legacy ICE or BEVs). As a relatively niche market like biodiesel now, maybe.


I work in an industry that is related to hydrogen production and compression. The supply is about to go way up.


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## Not Sure (Oct 31, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> I work in an industry that is related to hydrogen production and compression. The supply is about to go way up.





			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223879250_Effect_of_sub-freezing_temperatures_on_a_PEM_fuel_cell_performance_startup_and_fuel_cell_components#:~:text=The%20fuel%20cell%20was%20also,damaged%20fuel%20cell%20internal%20components.
		


So you need to keep them from freezing or somehow blow out all the water after shutdown ?


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## ss20 (Oct 31, 2022)

Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run.  They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension.  Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof.  To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid.  That's $1,200-$1,500.  Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV.  I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient.  ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).  

Also with electricity and gasoline prices alllllll over the place not sure anyone can safely predict that they'd recoup the purchase price of an EV with gasoline savings (over the life of the car).  New England residential electricity is up 5 cents/kwh over last year.  20.8 cents to 25.6.  23% increase.  AAA has the price of gasoline in New York at $3.81 today and $3.54 a year ago, a 7% increase.


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## Granite1 (Nov 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run.  They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension.  Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof.  To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid.  That's $1,200-$1,500.  Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV.  I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient.  ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).
> 
> Also with electricity and gasoline prices alllllll over the place not sure anyone can safely predict that they'd recoup the purchase price of an EV with gasoline savings (over the life of the car).  New England residential electricity is up 5 cents/kwh over last year.  20.8 cents to 25.6.  23% increase.  AAA has the price of gasoline in New York at $3.81 today and $3.54 a year ago, a 7% increase.


You have to remember EVs are a big part of fairytale land, where there are no fossil fuels, just wind mills and solar panels.


----------



## RichT (Nov 1, 2022)

BTW after next week all this "Green New Deal" stuff will start to go away.


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## trackbiker (Nov 1, 2022)

Not Sure said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223879250_Effect_of_sub-freezing_temperatures_on_a_PEM_fuel_cell_performance_startup_and_fuel_cell_components#:~:text=The%20fuel%20cell%20was%20also,damaged%20fuel%20cell%20internal%20components.
> 
> 
> 
> So you need to keep them from freezing or somehow blow out all the water after shutdown ?


That report is from 2006. There are several solutions to the cold start problem. One is the fuel cell can be programmed to start and generates heat at cold temperatures. The FC can warm the car and/or charge a battery. It would operate like a thermostat in a building.


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## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> ...and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.


Electricity generation is indeed a huge issue and is barely discussed.  Gouvernements are pushing electrical vehicles way to quickly.  Pretty simple to work out the maths.  Adding tens of millions of electric vehicle would entail adding hundreds of Gwatts of new generating stations, most of which being thermal plants burning the same fossil fuel not used by cars.   To make sense,  the transition towards electrical vehicles should follow the energy transition towards renewable energy.   Right now it does not compute.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 1, 2022)




----------



## drjeff (Nov 1, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Electricity generation is indeed a huge issue and is barely discussed.  Gouvernements are pushing electrical vehicles way to quickly.  Pretty simple to work out the maths.  Adding tens of millions of electric vehicle would entail adding hundreds of Gwatts of new generating stations, most of which being thermal plants burning the same fossil fuel not used by cars.   To make sense,  the transition towards electrical vehicles should follow the energy transition towards renewable energy.   Right now it does not compute.


The reality is that the transition should be viewed as say a 25yr (or more event) not the push for 10yrs  as many governments seem to be trying to legislate now.  Also the transition probably should be ICE vehicles to gas/electruc hybrids to EV's (or some other non ICE technology that may arise and prove scaleable enough and cost effective enough to be implemented) rather than the current hard push from ICE to EV's going on.  There seems to be a bit of wishing on the part of legislators that doesn't jive with reality, and makes one wonder if some pushing the legislation might also believe in say unicorns and fairy dust.

The reality is that when you try and push something that is very likley going to cause a "set back" in the lifestyle of many as the attempts to quickly implement it happen, there is going to be some pushback for sure, and if anything as we emerge from the pandemic and see now that some of the measures that were pushed on society, and then kept in place for an extended period of time that was very likely far greater than was needed (if needed at all in some instances) you're going to see less trust by more in society the next time a wide scale governmental push of something is rushed at the public.  The degree of skepticism has certianly increased in many as a result of the pandemic


----------



## tumbler (Nov 1, 2022)

Massachusetts elec rates rates rising 64% today.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 1, 2022)

every supplier is rising 64%???  that seems sort of odd.  Is MA still regulating power prices?  in PA they are not regulated and you can shop for prices and "lock in" rates. 

Its sort of stupid and a pain in the ass...


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 1, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run.  They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension.  Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof.  To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid.  That's $1,200-$1,500.  Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV.  I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient.  ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).


Let's say I buy an EV with a listed 300 mile range. I keep it ten years, the battery degrades to 80% of initial capacity in that time (that's high but not outlandish) and I sell it on the used market with 200,000 miles on it (also high for a 10 year old car). The battery hasn't failed. It should continue to lose capacity slowly but indications from old EVs and hybrids are generally that the batteries can keep on trucking for a long while if you can tolerate slightly reduced range. For this example, a 240 mile (80% of 300) car is still very viable as anything but a road trip machine. There's no timing belt to replace, a lot fewer fluids to leak, the brake wear is substantially lower because of regenerative braking, the power company is handling your tailpipe emissions and doing a better job than your catalytic converter could... 

Or, a scrapyard buys a ready to retire EV and harvests the battery pack. Let's say the control electronics went bad, or some other failure that wasn't the battery but isn't worth fixing on an old car. That pack can be paired with new control hardware and reused in stationary storage. Sometimes it can be parted out to replace degraded cells in other EVs (this is already common with older hybrids, where the small total capacity and number of cells plus lack of battery cooling help cause more failures). This is actually a pretty significant criticism of Tesla's structural battery pack archetectute but that hasn't been put into production anywhere yet, and there may be mitigations so that repairs and reuse are practical. We'll see.

As for the cost argument, EV prices are being inflated by consumer demand (in the US). Let's say the tax incentives are responsible for half the current claimed $15,000 premium. Apparently enough people value the benefits of EVs to want them $7,500 more than comparable ICE cars. $1,500 of that is maintenance, in some consumers - fewer brake changes (but not nonexistent -thanks, regenerative braking) and a dozen oil changes and a timing belt change and a transmission service - plus the reduced price of fuel (electricity is likely to stay cheaper than gas if you charge at home, even if electricity goes up) but there's also the convenience factor of not needing to go to a gas station or having other less tangible benefits.  

And if you don't believe me about maintenance savings, why are some dealerships so reluctant to sell EVs? They're worried about their service center revenue dropping off.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2022)

bigbob said:


> No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?



I'm not a believer.

There's a smallcap called Hyzon Motors (HYZN) if you're interested in that sort of thing though.









						Hyzon Motors | Zero Emission, Hydrogen-Powered Vehicles
					

Hyzon is a global supplier of zero-emissions hydrogen fuel cell powered commercial vehicles, including heavy duty trucks, buses and coaches.




					www.hyzonmotors.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> *Only in fairyland can you drive your EV up to a station and have it swapped over just like that.* For example, to change a long range battery in a 2022 Tesla Model 3 takes six hours.



Yes, indeed, "fairyland" or alternatively, China.


----------



## x10003q (Nov 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Massachusetts elec rates rates rising 64% today.


and this is why power companies  in Massachusetts and Maine are fighting the powerline connection to Hydro Quebec going though Maine.


----------



## trackbiker (Nov 1, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> As for the cost argument, EV prices are being inflated by consumer demand (in the US). Let's say the tax incentives are responsible for half the current claimed $15,000 premium. Apparently enough people value the benefits of EVs to want them $7,500 more than comparable ICE cars. $1,500 of that is maintenance, in some consumers - fewer brake changes (but not nonexistent -thanks, regenerative braking) and a dozen oil changes and a timing belt change and a transmission service - plus the reduced price of fuel (electricity is likely to stay cheaper than gas if you charge at home, even if electricity goes up) but there's also the convenience factor of not needing to go to a gas station or having other less tangible benefits.



EV's have much fewer parts than ICE's. It's essentially a battery and two or four motors. There is no engine block, valves, fuel injector, spark plugs, transmission, distributor, exhaust manifold, muffler, catalytic converter, radiator, car battery, etc. Once the battery prices come down and production meets or exceeds demand, prices will drop considerably below ICE's. How long will that take? Who knows? But it will happen.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2022)

I own a Chevrolet Bolt.  I don't have time to read the entire thread, so pardon me if this has been covered.

In the winter, if I use my heater like I want to, my range loss is 35-40%.

Level 3 chargers are notoriously unreliable and still take time even when they are working.

I love my Bolt... as my household's second car.  I simply don't use it for long trips.  Yes, it is possible, but it isn't fun watching your range drop hoping that the one Level 3 charger nearby is available and working - and when you finally make it to the charger, realizing that it is in an area with nothing to do for the next 45 minutes to an hour.


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## Granite1 (Nov 1, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes, indeed, "fairyland" or alternatively, China.


You nailed it? China loves fairyland and all the fairies. Attached are screen shots from your video showing how you drive up to a service station conveniently located on every street corner. Just pull up and have your battery swapped over. Only a billion cars and trucks that need to have a service station bay to pull into and be lifted up to swap over all these extra batteries that somehow are going to be all charged and ready to go at little cost??????


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## Granite1 (Nov 1, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> You nailed it? China loves fairyland and all the fairies. Attached are screen shots from your video showing how you drive up to a service station conveniently located on every street corner. Just pull up and have your battery swapped over. Only a billion cars and trucks that need to have a service station bay to pull into and be lifted up to swap over all these extra batteries that somehow are going to be all charged and ready to go at little cost??????


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 1, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Let's say I buy an EV with a listed 300 mile range. I keep it ten years, the battery degrades to 80% of initial capacity in that time (that's high but not outlandish) and I sell it on the used market with 200,000 miles on it (also high for a 10 year old car). The battery hasn't failed. It should continue to lose capacity slowly but indications from old EVs and hybrids are generally that the batteries can keep on trucking for a long while if you can tolerate slightly reduced range. For this example, a 240 mile (80% of 300) car is still very viable as anything but a road trip machine. There's no timing belt to replace, a lot fewer fluids to leak, the brake wear is substantially lower because of regenerative braking, the power company is handling your tailpipe emissions and doing a better job than your catalytic converter could...
> 
> Or, a scrapyard buys a ready to retire EV and harvests the battery pack. Let's say the control electronics went bad, or some other failure that wasn't the battery but isn't worth fixing on an old car. That pack can be paired with new control hardware and reused in stationary storage. Sometimes it can be parted out to replace degraded cells in other EVs (this is already common with older hybrids, where the small total capacity and number of cells plus lack of battery cooling help cause more failures). This is actually a pretty significant criticism of Tesla's structural battery pack archetectute but that hasn't been put into production anywhere yet, and there may be mitigations so that repairs and reuse are practical. We'll see.
> 
> ...


Maybe they have doubts about the viability of EV's.  Also do they have the technicians in place trained to service them?


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 1, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Maybe they have doubts about the viability of EV's.  Also do they have the technicians in place trained to service them?


Do they care about viability? Or are they more concerned that they'll profit less because you definitely won't come back to them for oil changes, so they steer you to an ICE vehicle.


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> It is a relevant topic for a Northeast Ski discussion group. I am the only driver in my household so I have a single car. My enjoying driving 6-10 roundtrips from NJ to northern New England to ski every winter prevents any EV from being a viable option for me - at least until they have refillable fuel sells or quickly swappable batteries. None of their benefits outweigh the cost of having a second vehicle.


It’s only “relevant” if you’re a single car “family”!

The whole point of the argument is, EV are good as a second car. And that’s the focus they should be on. In that role, the range doesn’t matter! 

So if you don’t have a second car, you should forget about an EV. Simple as that. 

Alternatively, it’s irrelevant for those of the same...in that you just read this whole thread as entertainment. It’s like a room full of men discussing pregnancy. It can be entertaining but still totally irrelevant.


----------



## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Nov 2, 2022)

abc said:


> It’s only “relevant” if you’re a single car “family”!
> 
> The whole point of the argument is, EV are good as a second car. And that’s the focus they should be on. In that role, the range doesn’t matter!
> 
> ...


Ok - so if it's not relevant to you, maybe don't participate. I am interested in developments in EV infrastructure and technology that could one day make them viable for me, though they are not at present. Since there is talk of mandating all vehicles be electric, cold weather range is relevant to all of us (assuming there is still cold weather when that comes to pass)

Discussions about skiing in Maine are irrelevant to me, but I don't object to their being here.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 2, 2022)

Also if EVs are going to be mandated then shouldn’t they be viable as the sole car in the household?


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## ThatGuy (Nov 2, 2022)

I can barely afford one car and some of y’all out here like my peasant ass should have two so my dirty fumes don’t ruin your air.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm really struggling to understand how EV-only would work without some major improvements to infrastructure or technology. My recent vacation involved 1250 miles of driving (about 250 each way between home and my destination with the rest being driving around the Finger Lakes for 8 days). I filled up my tank 3 times on the trip. Took 5 minutes each fill up so easily fit in my schedule. I was staying at an AirBnB. If I had an EV, how would I charge it? Would every single AirBnB (and hotel, motel, etc) need to offer EV charging in the future so guests can charge overnight? In general there are only a handful of public EV charging locations within 15 miles of where I was staying (near Geneva, NY...which is not exactly a small town in the middle of nowhere). I believe there was only 1 winery on my trip that had a few EV charging plugs in their parking lot. But you're only at a single winery maybe an hour or so on the high end. Nice gesture from them, but how much would that brief amount of charging actually help?

I'm not saying it is impossible...but you need either a way to charge extremely quickly or need charging stations virtually at every address if charging is going to take any significant amount of time. Otherwise EV just isn't going to be practical for a significant amount of people as their only car. (And assuming people can have multiple cars for different purposes is also not realistic).


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 2, 2022)

x10003q said:


> and this is why power companies  in Massachusetts and Maincanadian mountye are fighting the powerline connection to Hydro Quebec going though Maine.


Hydro Quebec
The Canadians flooded a huge amount of land to build the dams. This is a great example of environmental groups not being able to see the forest for the trees.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 2, 2022)

Throwing a 240v 20A circuit in a vacation rental probably will be expected, much like color TV or air conditioning is now expected equipment. Whether use of that charger is part of the rental or if it's charged extra per kWh while you trickle charge overnight will likely vary.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 2, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Throwing a 240v 20A circuit in a vacation rental probably will be expected, much like color TV or air conditioning is now expected equipment. Whether use of that charger is part of the rental or if it's charged extra per kWh while you trickle charge overnight will likely vary.


Beside the coffee maker will be a 3D printer you can make new Poles and all other gear. Good thing Mr. Musk is around. 
What's this about color TV?


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 2, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Do they care about viability? Or are they more concerned that they'll profit less because you definitely won't come back to them for oil changes, so they steer you to an ICE vehicle.


What kind of moron goes to the dealer for an oil change?  I worked at 2 dealerships.  Unless it's warranty work you can do better almost anywhere else.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 3, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> What kind of moron goes to the dealer for an oil change?  I worked at 2 dealerships.  Unless it's warranty work you can do better almost anywhere else.



This was my thought for a long time.  Dealer gave me 3 pre-paid oil changes/tire rotations when I got the car.  Used them up.  Asked for ha-has what it would cost for 3 more pre-paids.  $180 and it's full synthetic.  $60 a pop.  A bit less than the mom/pop shop near me.  Save a few bucks plus the ridiculous setups they have in dealer waiting rooms now (gone are the days of piss-awful coffee and crappy magazines) hard to go wrong.


----------



## skiur (Nov 3, 2022)

I change my own oil and unless warranty work will never go to a dealership.  Find an independent garage you can trust and stick with it, it will save you money and give you peace of mind.


----------



## trackbiker (Nov 3, 2022)

A plug in hybrid would make the most sense for most people. The average car trip is 11 miles. Plug in hybrids average between 35 and 40 miles per charge. This is more than enough for daily driving needs. When you go on a longer trip you run on gas. I know someone who has one and does do a lot of weekend trips. They only fill up with gas about once per month. During the week they run on the battery.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

ss20 said:


> This was my thought for a long time.  Dealer gave me 3 pre-paid oil changes/tire rotations when I got the car.  Used them up.  Asked for ha-has what it would cost for 3 more pre-paids.  $180 and it's full synthetic.  $60 a pop.  A bit less than the mom/pop shop near me.  Save a few bucks plus the ridiculous setups they have in dealer waiting rooms now (gone are the days of piss-awful coffee and crappy magazines) hard to go wrong.



I'd rather spend a few more bucks on an oil change from a local mechanic and have a relationship with local mechanic that I can trust for when something else does go wrong and needs repair/service.


----------



## zyk (Nov 3, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> A plug in hybrid would make the most sense for most people. The average car trip is 11 miles. Plug in hybrids average between 35 and 40 miles per charge. This is more than enough for daily driving needs. When you go on a longer trip you run on gas. I know someone who has one and does do a lot of weekend trips. They only fill up with gas about once per month. During the week they run on the battery.


Agreed.  That is what I wanted.  However long lead times,  a hefty premium,  and rising interest rates resulted in the purchase of a regular hybrid.


----------



## snoseek (Nov 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I'd rather spend a few more bucks on an oil change from a local mechanic and have a relationship with local mechanic that I can trust for when something else does go wrong and needs repair/service.


Better yet I'd just change my own. It takes very little time and isn't difficult


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 3, 2022)

i went to a local garage for an oil change last feb. they told me my radiator fan was gonna die soon and i should replace it. i said thanks that's on warranty so I'm gonna go to nissan. nissan looks, says radiator fan is fine, finds a bunch of other random shit to charge me for (some legit, some not legit and declined). in may my car broke down in manhattan a block before being inside the holland tunnel. blown radiator fan. stuck blocking heavy 6th avenue traffic for 3 hours while waiting for the tow. fuck nissan dealer service centers.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Better yet I'd just change my own. It takes very little time and isn't difficult



That defeats the purpose of building a relationship with a local mechanic though. Plus my mechanic looks everything else over while he's doing the oil change so at least that gives me some peace of mind too. 



KustyTheKlown said:


> i went to a local garage for an oil change last feb. they told me my radiator fan was gonna die soon and i should replace it. i said thanks that's on warranty so I'm gonna go to nissan. nissan looks, says radiator fan is fine, finds a bunch of other random shit to charge me for (some legit, some not legit and declined). in may my car broke down in manhattan a block before being inside the holland tunnel. blown radiator fan. stuck blocking heavy 6th avenue traffic for 3 hours while waiting for the tow. fuck nissan dealer service centers.



Reminds me of a couple experiences I had with dealers:
1) Had some warranty work done on my old truck at the dealer. They did a multi-point inspection as part of that and said the brakes were fine and still "green" on the report as the pads had plenty of thickness left. Literally only a week or two later my brakes started squealing. Immediately took it to my own mechanic and when he looked at the pads there was almost nothing at all left on the rear pads. No way pads went from "plenty of thickness left" at the dealer to being nearly completely gone a week or two later. Don't know what the dealer was looking at but if they couldn't even get something simple like that right, what else would they get wrong?

2) Another time my dad was constantly complaining to the dealer about something on his car when it was under warranty and they kept saying it was fine. As soon as the warranty ended all of a sudden they agreed whatever it was needed to be replaced (and it wasn't cheap). That's when my dad promptly sold that car and switched to another brand. I think one of the biggest problems with dealer service (at least with the dealers I've been to) is that you never know which mechanic is going to be working on your car. It could be a senior mechanic that knows their stuff or it could be someone with minimal experience.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 3, 2022)

What's holding me back from buying an electric is how to change the oil. I change my oil when I have time. It's nice to have an accelerant around besides gas. The Feds used to give you a tax brake for burning used oil is you own a dealership or garage. Pretty sure that's gone away butt, people still drip used oil in woodstoves for extra BTUs.

There's a oil change place on the heights of concord beside the transmission shop. I went there because I had a small brake fluid leak. They cut my brake lines on an old Ford Ranger. I left the truck there and they ended up giving me $500.

Never had a bad experience with a dealer, car dealer that is.


----------



## mister moose (Nov 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> 1) Had some warranty work done on my old truck at the dealer. They did a multi-point inspection as part of that and said the brakes were fine and still "green" on the report as the pads had plenty of thickness left. Literally only a week or two later my brakes started squealing. Immediately took it to my own mechanic and when he looked at the pads there was almost nothing at all left on the rear pads. No way pads went from "plenty of thickness left" at the dealer to being nearly completely gone a week or two later. Don't know what the dealer was looking at but if they couldn't even get something simple like that right, what else would they get wrong?



I do my own brakes usually, and I've seen where the outer visible pads are looking fine but the inner pad ends up being worn out.  A sticky caliper or a pad stuck in the guides will wear unevenly and cause that.  It's hard to see the inner pad sometimes.  Should you look at the inner pad?  More time to do that, constant tradeoff I'm sure on keeping rates low and providing good service.  No idea if that was your situation, but it might not be as simple as you thought.


BodeMiller1 said:


> The Feds used to give you a tax brake


Is that a new revenue generator for electric car brakes that pay no gas tax?


----------



## slatham (Nov 3, 2022)

trackbiker said:


> A plug in hybrid would make the most sense for most people. The average car trip is 11 miles. Plug in hybrids average between 35 and 40 miles per charge. This is more than enough for daily driving needs. When you go on a longer trip you run on gas. I know someone who has one and does do a lot of weekend trips. They only fill up with gas about once per month. During the week they run on the battery.


This is what we found with a Prius Prime (not our ski car LOL). Hence we’ve been looking at the RAV4 prime, but hope they come out with a Highlander prime, or someone else does the equivalent. Just not sure I want to be 100% EV on a long cold trip in the mountains………


----------



## cdskier (Nov 3, 2022)

mister moose said:


> I do my own brakes usually, and I've seen where the outer visible pads are looking fine but the inner pad ends up being worn out.  A sticky caliper or a pad stuck in the guides will wear unevenly and cause that.  It's hard to see the inner pad sometimes.  Should you look at the inner pad?  More time to do that, constant tradeoff I'm sure on keeping rates low and providing good service.  No idea if that was your situation, but it might not be as simple as you thought.



My mechanic showed me the pads at the time...it wasn't a case of uneven wear. The "multi-point inspection report" from the dealer had 3 levels of color coding for each item - Green for brakes was supposed to mean the pads were over a certain thickness. Yellow meant it was getting thin but still had some time before needing to be replaced. Red meant that it needs attention asap. They had checked off green for front and rear pads. The excuse that fully checking the inner pads would take more time doesn't fly. If you aren't going to do something properly because it would take too much time, then don't do it at all and give people a false impression that you checked something that you didn't really check. Doing a half-ass job is worse than doing nothing.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Nov 3, 2022)

mister moose said:


> I do my own brakes usually, and I've seen where the outer visible pads are looking fine but the inner pad ends up being worn out.  A sticky caliper or a pad stuck in the guides will wear unevenly and cause that.  It's hard to see the inner pad sometimes.  Should you look at the inner pad?  More time to do that, constant tradeoff I'm sure on keeping rates low and providing good service.  No idea if that was your situation, but it might not be as simple as you thought.
> 
> Is that a new revenue generator for electric car brakes that pay no gas tax?





mister moose said:


> I do my own brakes usually, and I've seen where the outer visible pads are looking fine but the inner pad ends up being worn out.  A sticky caliper or a pad stuck in the guides will wear unevenly and cause that.  It's hard to see the inner pad sometimes.  Should you look at the inner pad?  More time to do that, constant tradeoff I'm sure on keeping rates low and providing good service.  No idea if that was your situation, but it might not be as simple as you thought.
> 
> Is that a new revenue generator for electric car brakes that pay no gas tax?


Master Moose,
                       Good point so many states have used the gas tax to fund upkeep on roads and the like. On one hand you want to give green cars an advantage (Fed Tax Credits). It's similar to when the internet was new and there were no taxes. The transition from one technology to another is never easy, the industrial revolution and child labor is a good example. In Manchester kids were small enough to fit in the machinery...

                      Back on point (maybe), NO.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 4, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Good point so many states have used the gas tax to fund upkeep on roads and the like...


Gas taxes don't actually charge the people causing wear and tear on roads and highways. If you want true fairness, road useage should be paid by some combination of mileage traveled and vehicle weight per tire. Commercial trucking does the vast majority of wear and tear (that isn't weather or aging) on roads and that isn't currently reflected in their gas tax, useage fees, etc. Personally I'm not a fan of subsidizing Swift and Amazon and all the other trucking companies with my tax dollars (especially since gas tax doesn't cover all road maintenance and upkeep, generally).


----------



## Granite1 (Nov 4, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Gas taxes don't actually charge the people causing wear and tear on roads and highways. If you want true fairness, road useage should be paid by some combination of mileage traveled and vehicle weight per tire. Commercial trucking does the vast majority of wear and tear (that isn't weather or aging) on roads and that isn't currently reflected in their gas tax, useage fees, etc. Personally I'm not a fan of subsidizing Swift and Amazon and all the other trucking companies with my tax dollars (especially since gas tax doesn't cover all road maintenance and upkeep, generally).


These large trucks are paying their fair share, they use a lot more gas and diesel per mile than a passenger car, so are paying more taxes.  The people that aren't paying their fair share are EV owners, they are the ones that have to pay taxes based on mileage.  They need to pay a huge surcharge on their electric bills too if tax dollars are going to be used to build charging station infrastructure.


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## IceEidolon (Nov 4, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> These large trucks are paying their fair share, they use a lot more gas and diesel per mile than a passenger car, so are paying more taxes.  The people that aren't paying their fair share are EV owners, they are the ones that have to pay taxes based on mileage.  They need to pay a huge surcharge on their electric bills too if tax dollars are going to be used to build charging station infrastructure.











						Murphy’s Law: How Trucks Destroy Our Roads
					

And how a fee on trucks could solve state’s transportation problem.




					urbanmilwaukee.com
				











						The Hidden Trucking Industry Subsidy
					

Freight trucks cause 99% of wear-and-tear on US roads, but only pay for 35% of the maintenance. This $60B subsidy causes extra congestion and pollution, and taxpayers pay the bill. It seems obvious…




					truecostblog.com
				




Notably both articles assume all damage to roads is caused by wear, rather than plowing, thermal expansion, etc - I doubt the true number is actually 99%. But it's undoubtedly higher than the proportion of useage tax paid by semi trucks. Meanwhile, an EV owner (or a person driving a hybrid with 45 MPG) is actually still contributing to their state's budget and paying their fair share that way - they're just not being overcharged quite as much as the guy with the early 2000s Suburban. 

I did say I wanted to see people paying their fair share, right? That should lead to lower road use fees for most Americans, assuming we keep the same proportion of highway maintenance money coming from useage - whether they drive a Spark or a Corvette or an F250.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> The people that aren't paying their fair share are EV owners



Most states place a surcharge on EV registrations for this reason - or they are about to.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 4, 2022)

If we have rolling backouts like they warned of in NE, then heating systems will not work.  People could actually go cold and freeze to enable more EV's to charge.   Those EV owners are usually the same green activists that vote against the Northern Pass etc.  





__





						New England faces rolling BLACKOUTS this winter with bills set to soar
					





					www.msn.com


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## icecoast1 (Nov 4, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Gas taxes don't actually charge the people causing wear and tear on roads and highways. If you want true fairness, road useage should be paid by some combination of mileage traveled and vehicle weight per tire. Commercial trucking does the vast majority of wear and tear (that isn't weather or aging) on roads and that isn't currently reflected in their gas tax, useage fees, etc. Personally I'm not a fan of subsidizing Swift and Amazon and all the other trucking companies with my tax dollars (especially since gas tax doesn't cover all road maintenance and upkeep, generally).


Driving up the cost of transporting goods even further  doesn't seem like the best thing to do during sky high inflation.


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## RichT (Nov 4, 2022)

Dealerships don't make money on selling cars...............it's the people who go to the dealer for maintenance,! That's where the money's at! You go in for a flat tire and walk out with a new exhaust and brakes.


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## abc (Nov 4, 2022)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Discussions about skiing in Maine are irrelevant to me, but I don't object to their being here.


I never said I object to the discussion. Only that it’s about as relevant as a room full of men discussing pregnancy! Entertaining alright, but irrelevant. 



Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> I am interested in developments in EV infrastructure and technology that could one day make them viable for me, though they are not at present.


Your interest is admirable, but not practical at the present time. One day, yes. But that day is not now. 

Why did we go to the moon instead of the Mars? Both are hard. But one is considerably achievable than the other. 

When 1/2 of the 2nd cars of all the families are EV, you bet there will be all sort of charging options sprung up all over the place to allow them to drive just a little bit over their 1-charge range. That’s the time to mandate all new cars to be EV only. Before that, it’s putting the carts before the horses. 

Insisting EV to have long ranges before there’re enough of them to “populate” all over the road needing charging is just a waste of money. But hey, when did good logic ever stop high and mighty political rhetorics? 

“One day”, we’ll all be driving EVs. But how to get to that day? There’re easy ways. There’re hard ways...


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## IceEidolon (Nov 5, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> Driving up the cost of transporting goods even further  doesn't seem like the best thing to do during sky high inflation.


I'll chalk one up in favor of giving taxpayer money to trucking companies.

I figure long term distorting shipping prices around public subsidy, to the potential disadvantage of other forms of manufacturing and business, is not good for a supposedly free market economy.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 7, 2022)

RichT said:


> Dealerships don't make money on selling cars...............



Narrator: He was wrong.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 7, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'll chalk one up in favor of giving taxpayer money to trucking companies.
> 
> I figure long term distorting shipping prices around public subsidy, to the potential disadvantage of other forms of manufacturing and business, is not good for a supposedly free market economy.


What is free market about any of the EV agenda?  It's chock full of subsidies.  Subsidies encourage malinvestment or plainly throwing good money after bad.


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## kbroderick (Nov 8, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> What is free market about any of the EV agenda?  It's chock full of subsidies.  Subsidies encourage malinvestment or plainly throwing good money after bad.


They can do that. They can also encourage investments that support a public good that is otherwise not economically rewarded, or that isn't rewarded in proportion to the common good associated with them.

I'm pretty sure the government subsidizes most forms of transportation at this point, in both direct (e.g. FAA airport improvement grants and federal highway spending) and indirect (e.g. foreign policy that favors access to oil).


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## ss20 (Nov 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> This was my thought for a long time.  Dealer gave me 3 pre-paid oil changes/tire rotations when I got the car.  Used them up.  Asked for ha-has what it would cost for 3 more pre-paids.  $180 and it's full synthetic.  $60 a pop.  A bit less than the mom/pop shop near me.  Save a few bucks plus the ridiculous setups they have in dealer waiting rooms now (gone are the days of piss-awful coffee and crappy magazines) hard to go wrong.



Follow up on this...

Dealer said I need new rear pads when I got my last prepaid oil change.  Next oil change I did with my mechanic he said the same thing.  Mechanic quoted me $250 for pads/re-surface rotors.  Dealer is $250 as well but there's a 10% off coupon.  Called a couple other places who ranged $230-$300.  Dealer=win


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## skiur (Nov 11, 2022)

I haven't heard of cutting rotors in 20 years, it used to be normal practice but not anymore.


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## cdskier (Nov 11, 2022)

skiur said:


> I haven't heard of cutting rotors in 20 years, it used to be normal practice but not anymore.



Depends on the vehicle...my old truck had pretty beefy brakes and rotors and you could resurface them (that was an 07 Avalanche). My current truck has much smaller rotors and brakes and you're better off just replacing the rotors.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 11, 2022)

yeah my mechanic told me that the newer lighter weight rotors don't have much surface to re-cut.  Plus there aren't many people that do it anymore and its cheaper to put new ones on.


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## bigbob (Nov 11, 2022)

skiur said:


> I haven't heard of cutting rotors in 20 years, it used to be normal practice but not anymore.


Rotors where hard to get for awhile, the new toliet paper! I don't know if the supply chain has improved, but car parts are still in short supply depending on application.


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## zyk (Nov 11, 2022)

bigbob said:


> Rotors where hard to get for awhile, the new toliet paper! I don't know if the supply chain has improved, but car parts are still in short supply depending on application.



I have two cars which need parts that are unavailable.  One can't pass inspection...


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 12, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> They can do that. They can also encourage investments that support a public good that is otherwise not economically rewarded, or that isn't rewarded in proportion to the common good associated with them.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the government subsidizes most forms of transportation at this point, in both direct (e.g. FAA airport improvement grants and federal highway spending) and indirect (e.g. foreign policy that favors access to oil).


Please tell me what gas, not hybrid, powered cars qualify for a subsidy?


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## abc (Nov 13, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Please tell me what gas, not hybrid, powered cars qualify for a subsidy?


The roads they drive on.


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## Dickc (Nov 13, 2022)

GMC jumping into the all electric truck game.





__





						Meet The First-Ever GMC Sierra EV: Electric Truck
					

<p>Introducing the new GMC Sierra EV truck built to reach unimaginable heights. Be one of the first to reserve the all-electric Sierra EV today.<br /> </p>




					www.gmc.com


----------



## cdskier (Nov 13, 2022)

Dickc said:


> GMC jumping into the all electric truck game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_ESTIMATED STARTING AT MSRP: $107,000_

They're out of their damn mind... Then again, they're out of their mind with the entire Denali line IMO.


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## Dickc (Nov 13, 2022)

cdskier said:


> _ESTIMATED STARTING AT MSRP: $107,000_
> 
> They're out of their damn mind... Then again, they're out of their mind with the entire Denali line IMO.


Denali's are REALLY nice.  I have a Yukon XL Denali.  Drives like a dream.


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## drjeff (Nov 13, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Denali's are REALLY nice.  I have a Yukon XL Denali.  Drives like a dream.


I've got an Acadia Denali and love it. Been driving GMC's as my primary ride now for 20yrs. 

Current car Quiver in the household is a 2016 Acadia (my sons car) a 2018 Audi Q7 Tdi Diesel (my daughters car) a 2020 Acadia Denali (when it went to the midsized version - my car) and a 2022 Volvo XC90 hybrid (my wife's car) My family jokingly refers to my Acadia Denali as "the clown car" since it's the smallest one in the driveway when all 4 vehicles are at our house!


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2022)

I drive a GMC (and Chevy trucks prior to my current GMC)...but I just see no point in spending money on the Denali versions. There's no features the Denali version has that I care about so it doesn't make sense to spend an extra $4-8k for the Denali version of the Canyon or Sierra for me. I also can't stand the way 20" low profile tires look on a truck. I'd rather have the 17" rims and have the higher profile of the tire itself.


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2022)

People still buy GMC????  Semi-kidding.  I only know of a few people (car guys) that keep/maintain ones from the early 00s and 90s that were (apparently) beasts (same with the Chevy SUV's from that era).    

I struggle with how a $60k GMC can be better than a Sequoia, maxed out Highlander, or a Pilot.  Not like I'll have to make that choice anytime soon though!


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2022)

drjeff said:


> I've got an Acadia Denali and love it. Been driving GMC's as my primary ride now for 20yrs.
> 
> Current car Quiver in the household is a 2016 Acadia (my sons car) a 2018 Audi Q7 Tdi Diesel (my daughters car) a 2020 Acadia Denali (when it went to the midsized version - my car) and a 2022 Volvo XC90 hybrid (my wife's car) My family jokingly refers to my Acadia Denali as "the clown car" since it's the smallest one in the driveway when all 4 vehicles are at our house!



Wish I could send this post to 17yo me... I'd of been in dental school the day after graduating high school!


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> People still buy GMC????  Semi-kidding.  I only know of a few people (car guys) that keep/maintain ones from the early 00s and 90s that were (apparently) beasts (same with the Chevy SUV's from that era).
> 
> I struggle with how a $60k GMC can be better than a Sequoia, maxed out Highlander, or a Pilot.  Not like I'll have to make that choice anytime soon though!



Sequoia, Highlander, and Pilot aren't pick-up trucks... so none of those would be my choices. My truck was a bit under $40K 5 years ago when I bought it. (GMC Canyon). Not quite sure what I'll do when it is time to replace it. I'm not particularly a fan of some of the corners GM cut in the mid-size pick-up line compared to my old truck (a Chevy Avalanche). Then again, maybe even the full-size pick-ups today in GM's lineup took some of those same short-cuts. My old truck was built like a tank (had 230K miles when I got rid of it...and it is still on the road today as my mechanic actually bought it when I was getting my new truck). I've never cared much for Toyota's pickups. I've driven a friend's Tundra in the past and didn't like it.

FWIW, my dad has a Pilot and I absolutely can't stand it. I don't like the handling or ride at all. Granted maybe the newer ones are better (his is maybe ~6ish years old?)


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## drjeff (Nov 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Wish I could send this post to 17yo me... I'd of been in dental school the day after graduating high school!



Marrying well also doesn't hurt the car buying situation in my family either


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## BodeMiller1 (Nov 14, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Marrying well also doesn't hurt the car buying situation in my family either


I'm almost 60 and all of my friends who said the marry well thing lost half their stuff or put up with far too much...

One time my friend wanted to go skiing and his wife was on the fence. 
How can this be I asked myself. There was no answer only the sound of high powered engines being drowned out by beers being cracked.

Pro tip of the day. Don't drink and drive, butt if you do please do so while accelerating, when you feel the G's puling you back in your seat that is the time to tip the federalies.


Only YOU can prevent forest fires.


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## 2Planker (Nov 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Wish I could send this post to 17yo me... I'd of been in dental school the day after graduating high school!


You mean, the day after graduating from *college...
*Quiver - '20 S4, '21 Q8, '07 Z4 M Coupe, '65 Mustang


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## darent (Nov 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> People still buy GMC????  Semi-kidding.  I only know of a few people (car guys) that keep/maintain ones from the early 00s and 90s that were (apparently) beasts (same with the Chevy SUV's from that era).
> 
> I struggle with how a $60k GMC can be better than a Sequoia, maxed out Highlander, or a Pilot.  Not like I'll have to make that choice anytime soon though!


don't understand your struggle, GMC- God made Car, got to be better than a TOY- ota


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## 1dog (Nov 14, 2022)

ss20 said:


> People still buy GMC????  Semi-kidding.  I only know of a few people (car guys) that keep/maintain ones from the early 00s and 90s that were (apparently) beasts (same with the Chevy SUV's from that era).
> 
> I struggle with how a $60k GMC can be better than a Sequoia, maxed out Highlander, or a Pilot.  Not like I'll have to make that choice anytime soon though!


Guilty - 2007 GMC Yukon XL- cause none have that much room except maybe Excursion - but I've never owned a Ford. Has 213K miles, hoping to get to 300K before I retire it. Traded in an Acura MDX and now will never go back at least until kids and dogs are not part of the story . . 

Nothing stops it going over Rox Gap mud, snow or ice - 19 MPG is best I can do - 5.3 L- salted rust starting because of  the dunes of Nauset in Chatham/Orleans - but relatively cheap to maintain- Insurance under $700 ( no collision). No, would never pay the $60K for a used w 50K miles on them now. . . .  will wait till the price crashes once $5 a gallon is back.  Wife's KIA plug in hybrid AWD is ok, but its not as high of course and not as beefy. 40-50 MPG doesn't suck tho . . .

5-6 guys out west in a Yukon/Suburban - skis inside too - what else does that?


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## NYDB (Nov 14, 2022)

I Figured dr Jeff for a g wagon or panamera.  Big disappoint.


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## drjeff (Nov 14, 2022)

NYDB said:


> I Figured dr Jeff for a g wagon or panamera.  Big disappoint.


Truthfully no interest in those. 

While I like cars, by no means do I obsess about cars. Never been my thing. More about functionality than flashiness when it comes to my thoughts on a vehicle


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## kbroderick (Nov 15, 2022)

1dog said:


> 5-6 guys out west in a Yukon/Suburban - skis inside too - what else does that?


Transit or Sprinter. And both actually have enough room for five or six adults plus skis, which is questionable in the Suburban if you've got any longish (190+) skis. It's tough to keep the third row full of humans in an SUV and also fit skis inside once they get too long to go sideways or diagonal.

Of course, I'm a race coach, so I'm used to having four to six pairs of skis per person along.


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> Transit or Sprinter. And both actually have enough room for five or six adults plus skis, which is questionable in the Suburban if you've got any longish (190+) skis. It's tough to keep the third row full of humans in an SUV and also fit skis inside once they get too long to go sideways or diagonal.
> 
> Of course, I'm a race coach, so I'm used to having four to six pairs of skis per person along.


are Transits and/or Sprinters all-wheel/4wd?


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## kbroderick (Nov 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> are Transits and/or Sprinters all-wheel/4wd?


They're available as such, but with good snow tires, you can get most places* with a RWD model and weight in the back.

*: out of the downhill side of the Titcomb, Maine, parking lot during a snowstorm being a notable exclusion.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2022)

ss20 said:


> People still buy GMC????  Semi-kidding.  I only know of a few people (car guys) that keep/maintain ones from the early 00s and 90s that were (apparently) beasts (same with the Chevy SUV's from that era).
> 
> I struggle with how a $60k GMC can be better than a Sequoia, maxed out Highlander, or a Pilot.  Not like I'll have to make that choice anytime soon though!



I'd take a Yukon over a Sequoia, Highlander or Pilot. 

Toyota is very slow to update and upgrade their fleets.  The Pilot is basically a minivan and not comparable.   The Sequoia was just updated for the first time in like 12 years recently and they really didn't do that great a job with it IMO.   No independent rear suspension and the cargo space stinks.  Those were sacrificed to fit the hybrid battery I believe. 

Not saying Toyota isn't a great company.  I've been driving Siennas for work for five years.  They still probably make the longest lasting and most reliable motors.


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> They're available as such, but with good snow tires, you can get most places* with a RWD model and weight in the back.
> 
> *: out of the downhill side of the Titcomb, Maine, parking lot during a snowstorm being a notable exclusion.


Bolton would be an issue


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Bolton would be an issue



climbing to bolton in heavy snowfall fucking sucks


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> climbing to bolton in heavy snowfall fucking sucks


Had to have my sons get out and push a few years ago. Didn’t have snow tires on the wife’s crv.


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## kbroderick (Nov 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Bolton would be an issue


FWIW, ski academies have driven RWD vans by default for years, and they work more often than not. I don't know how much of the current fleet out there is RWD vs A/4WD, but I'm guessing most is still RWD. Yes, races get cancelled when there's too much snow, but usually that happens after you get there.

I'd be willing to bet I could make it to and from BV in a RWD Transit without issue, given good tires and appropriate weight in the van. I did that drive 5+ days a week for a couple of years in a 91 VW Golf, and after I moved to the hill I drove the airport shuttle a fair number of times (E-450, I think, maybe E-550), which was RWD and a dually. That's a horrible combo for snow traction, but—again, with good tires—I don't recall having any trouble, aside from the time I drove back up the hill in a snowstorm and then tried doing donuts. Let's just say that the parking lot gets a lot smaller when you've got that much momentum going sideways.

I could see getting stuck in the parking lot, but that's relatively easy to work around.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 15, 2022)

abc said:


> The roads they drive on.


Road "subsidies"  which are paid for by gas/diesel tax.  Sounds like the rich EV owners are not paying their far share.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 16, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Road "subsidies"  which are paid for by gas/diesel tax.  Sounds like the rich EV owners are not paying their far share.


They will soon enough when those taxes and other costs associated with upgrading the power grid to handle the extra capacity are passed on to the consumers


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2022)

icecoast1 said:


> They will soon enough when those taxes and other costs associated with upgrading the power grid to handle the extra capacity are passed on to the consumers


Do they pass it on via electric bills? If so fossil fuel users will get a double whammy. Gas tax and electric rate increases.


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## BodeMiller1 (Nov 16, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> climbing to bolton in heavy snowfall fucking sucks


Skiing at Bolton sucks. I went there in 1991. Why would I go back?


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## ThatGuy (Nov 16, 2022)

No one said you have to…

But Bolton doesn’t suck, especially for sidecountry and skinning.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 16, 2022)

lol. ok buddy. bolton sucks. nothing to see here.


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## BodeMiller1 (Nov 16, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. ok buddy. bolton sucks. nothing to see here.


What is it low angle trees and 1000'. Less Meow here than meets the eye. What do they have good french fries?


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## BodeMiller1 (Nov 16, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> No one said you have to…
> 
> But Bolton doesn’t suck, especially for side country and skinning.


Sounds good. Maybe it's better than 1988?


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## Dickc (Nov 16, 2022)

Dickc said:


> GMC jumping into the all electric truck game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GMC sold ALL of the reservations out in 20 minutes according to my local GMC dealer.
Was in getting a complimentary oil change, and a recall dealt with.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2022)

I drive all sorts of vehicles through my work.  I usually have a vehicle for 2-4 weeks and then swap into something different.

I absolutely love the Acadia.  It's a great size and drives really nicely.  And it's comfortable, too.  The Denali version is pricey, but it's a beautiful vehicle.  I have yet to drive a Toyota that I like.  Everything about them is bland.  Toyota has always been behind the curve when it comes to tech, which is an extra strike against them.

Right now my work car is a loaded VW Arteon.  I really like it.  It's not an Audi, for sure, but it has everything I care about and the price is a whole lot cheaper.   I just wish that it had a windshield wiper on the "sport back". 

I recently drove a Tesla Model 3 with the ludicrous speed option.  Even though it is 0.2 seconds slower than the Corvette I have recently driven, it felt faster because of the instant torque.  But I hated the lack of buttons and the interior is VERY cheap for that price point.  The build quality is also cheap.  And the stupid door handles and charging port door are just asking to get frozen over in the winter.  The charging port door looks like it would break really easily.  That said, I was shocked at how good it was in terms of speed and handling - all in a package that looks like it was made for runs to the grocery store.  It will be interesting to see if Buick and other cars will equal the performance but with better interiors and build quality.

Mazda is very underrated.  I don't understand why people buy Toyotas and Hondas instead of Mazdas.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> I drive all sorts of vehicles through my work.  I usually have a vehicle for 2-4 weeks and then swap into something different.
> 
> I absolutely love the Acadia.  It's a great size and drives really nicely.  And it's comfortable, too.  The Denali version is pricey, but it's a beautiful vehicle.  I have yet to drive a Toyota that I like.  Everything about them is bland.  Toyota has always been behind the curve when it comes to tech, which is an extra strike against them.
> 
> ...


Wife looked at the Mazda CX-5 and the crv. Crv had a bigger storage area for the dogs. Cx5 did drive better but the sloping back cut the space.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2022)

I'm excited to see the new CX-70 & CX-90.   From a driving dynamics and fit and finish standpoint, I've long felt Mazda is the best non-luxury Asian brand.


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## 1dog (Nov 17, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> I drive all sorts of vehicles through my work.  I usually have a vehicle for 2-4 weeks and then swap into something different.
> 
> I absolutely love the Acadia.  It's a great size and drives really nicely.  And it's comfortable, too.  The Denali version is pricey, but it's a beautiful vehicle.  I have yet to drive a Toyota that I like.  Everything about them is bland.  Toyota has always been behind the curve when it comes to tech, which is an extra strike against them.
> 
> ...


My bride had a CX-5 - traded in an Acura RDX - disappointed in that after 3 great MDX leases- never had one issue and value was always higher than residual. RX disappointing MPG, same are MDX( but we have a Yukon so no need for room) CX-5 was just a nice with better MPG- same room. what I've learned in my old age is perception far outweighs facts, more than ever. 

Given Honda reliability and relatively less marketed Mazda - I would wager similar quality and 1/10th the sales of CRV.

The KIA plug-in we got has ( so far) similar quality, too many buttons and signals and options on dash/steering wheel ( ' The vehicle ahead of you has moved on' - Screw you K-Car, I'm reading my text messages!) I'm sure it sends info to KIA to let them know I'm speeding, weaving, and generally breaking the law.

After all, I'm a 'Masshole'. ( What other state advertises its full of A-holes?) I'm embarrassed to drive to other states in NE and apologize for any reputation the few, the proud, the anal cavity folks have led anyone to believe we are all the same. . . .


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## kickstand (Nov 17, 2022)

1dog said:


> My bride had a CX-5 - traded in an Acura RDX - disappointed in that after 3 great MDX leases- never had one issue and value was always higher than residual. RX disappointing MPG, same are MDX( but we have a Yukon so no need for room) CX-5 was just a nice with better MPG- same room. what I've learned in my old age is perception far outweighs facts, more than ever.
> 
> Given Honda reliability and relatively less marketed Mazda - I would wager similar quality and 1/10th the sales of CRV.
> 
> ...


It took me 10 minutes to read this one post.......


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## 1dog (Nov 21, 2022)

kickstand said:


> It took me 10 minutes to read this one post.......


Wow! No one ever reads my posts! Thank You!  WSJ on EV's: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/11/the-ev-boondoggle.php


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 21, 2022)

1dog said:


> Wow! No one ever reads my posts! Thank You!  WSJ on EV's: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/11/the-ev-boondoggle.php


The Carbon Nazi's running 1 giant scam after another.


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## 1dog (Dec 13, 2022)

Former Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> The Carbon Nazi's running 1 giant scam after another.


Hydrogen. Certainly more plentiful than lithium:  https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/would-you-drive-it-hydrogen-powered-suv-with-500-mile-range/


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## MidnightJester (Dec 29, 2022)

Is this the coldest or worst spell of winter we have had since EV's have become more mainstream??








						Tesla owner is forced to cancel plans after EV fails to charge
					

Domenick Nati, 44, has revealed how his Tesla S will not charge in the extreme cold weather gripping the United States. He said he went to charge it on Friday, but the percentage charge dipped.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Is it possible that electric cars, trucks and EV's cant be properly charged in single digit or minus -F weather. Uhhhh Ohhhhhh because frozen go pro and lithium phone batteries go very low to nearly zero if frozen even if they are nearly fully charged.

Just did a quick look at lithium ion batteries and below 32 degrees F and you damage or cant properly charge them. Hmmmmmmmm its OK if the battery can self-heat but what if it is already near depletion.

Interesting bit in the article is that he was instructed to go back to the charger when it warmed up or had heaters on. Huh??? What if it doesn't warm up for days or weeks? I cant believe they never tried charging in 10 degree weather or Zero degree F in building or testing. Testing or trying to charge when the battery is half or quarter charged is not testing. The ability to charge from nearly zero charge in long term zero degree temperatures should be the electric EV ability at minimum for a frozen environment or mountain.


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## 1dog (Dec 29, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> Is this the coldest or worst spell of winter we have had since EV's have become more mainstream??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Monday 5 AM. Trip to Stratton in wifes fully charged plug in hybrid - uses electric motors only under 35-40 MPH - I live 1.5 miles from  interstate- battery was 2/3 gone within 30 mins at 12 degrees. . . .  essentially unused.


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## ss20 (Dec 29, 2022)

Had a teen added very late to my lesson today... apparently their rented electric car died on the way to a charging station!


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## drjeff (Dec 29, 2022)

This storm that affected so much of the country this past week, is the perfect example of why those, along with the various unelected in many cases regulatory agency officials pushing for fully electric vehicles in the next 10yrs or so, should get realistic and accept that an extended phase of gas/electric hybrid vehicles is the rational way to go over say the next 25yrs as the national power grid, charging station quantity, and technology to make a full charge close in time equivalent to putting say 20 gallons of gas in a tank in any temperatures, the norm and not the exception!


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## 1dog (Dec 30, 2022)

drjeff said:


> This storm that affected so much of the country this past week, is the perfect example of why those, along with the various unelected in many cases regulatory agency officials pushing for fully electric vehicles in the next 10yrs or so, should get realistic and accept that an extended phase of gas/electric hybrid vehicles is the rational way to go over say the next 25yrs as the national power grid, charging station quantity, and technology to make a full charge close in time equivalent to putting say 20 gallons of gas in a tank in any temperatures, the norm and not the exception!


Agree Dr Jeff, except 1st the need to address the rampant pollution in the manufacturing of batteries, fact that large portions of said power is generated by coal, hydro, nat.gas, as well as the lack of resources for lithium (mainly) and other ingredients.  You are spot-on on the overly-regulatory nature of un-elected 'officials'. 600, count 'em, 600 federal agencies. . . .  Nat gas way to go - 200+ years of it, half the carbon of other fossil fuels, cheap, small footprint: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




			https://www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2022/09/image002-2.png


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## 1dog (Dec 31, 2022)

Never heard of this site but seems to be reasonable:  https://www.realclearscience.com/bl..._evs_handle_americas_arctic_blast_872663.html


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## MidnightJester (Dec 31, 2022)

1dog said:


> Never heard of this site but seems to be reasonable:  https://www.realclearscience.com/bl..._evs_handle_americas_arctic_blast_872663.html


Its a mostly accurate article but a little too harsh on ICE-(Internal Combustion Engines) in cold weather losses. It misses pushing the additional pluses that gas cars bring in safety and lack of convenience of EV's are huge in winter. We have become a Environment exploring society and a disconnected nuclear family that drives way more then 300 miles on a lot of trips.

As to infrastructure upgrades for EV's. I have seen near me that multiple Target stores have installed TESLA charging locations over the last 6 months in their parking lots. Maybe 12-18 Charging stations in a group in the farther corners of their lots.

As to the privately owned Fast/Quick charging locations and in the wild charging locations anyone any have real world amounts you are paying per Kilowatt?? I read a few comments and a article in the past that some locations charge at least 2X to 3X local electric rates compared to home fast charging. If you are in a Fast Charging membership please explain the costs?

EV charging locations will become the new ATM's that have all different costs and fees. There should be a before cost listed and after a recite and results after each charging time. How many Kilowatts charged? How much you just spent total? and what the per Kilowatt cost was? I can't imagine Gas pumps with no prices listed working out if that is what we had with Gas vehicles in society.


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## cdskier (Dec 31, 2022)

MidnightJester said:


> Its a mostly accurate article but a little too harsh on ICE-(Internal Combustion Engines) in cold weather losses.



Yea...the efficiency loss they mention for ICE engines in the winter seemed excessive. I lose a few MPG in the winter, but I attribute that more to the winter tires that I switch to rather than the cold impacting engine efficiency.


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## kbroderick (Dec 31, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Yea...the efficiency loss they mention for ICE engines in the winter seemed excessive. I lose a few MPG in the winter, but I attribute that more to the winter tires that I switch to rather than the cold impacting engine efficiency.


I'm not surprised when I see a tank at 12 MPG in the winter, versus averaging around 16 in the summer. Winter tires are probably a 1-MPG-ish hit, but the bigger factors are letting the truck idle to warm up and the transmission and differential fluids barely getting up to temp. With that said, my normal driving patterns would work really well for an EV (lots of short drives near home); when I have a tank that's mostly longer drives (ie over 30 minutes), my mileage ends up closer to 15, although probably under it.

And yes, I realize that it's generally considered unnecessary to warm up a modern vehicle before driving, but (a) I have too damn many short drives to keep the battery charged otherwise and (b) I've got an F-150 with a propensity to not latch doors unless they get some heat.


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## MidnightJester (Dec 31, 2022)

So The internal combustion engine from what I understand once up and running and hot works better with colder air. And to loss of MPG on my truck it is lucky if it is 10% going from 20mpg to 18mpg. The real loss is due to Elevation gains and elevation losses with braking. The more open throttle to compensate for loss of speed on hills is tremendous and to restart from bottom of hills with braking is the draw I see on trips. Going uphill with throttle probably drops MPG by 30-40% on mpg. Electric cars though fare even worse accelerating uphill I believe due to the lack of a transmission. The newer generation EV's will include some type of transmission to compensate for it eventually.

The EV's as technical and advanced as they are are much easier drivetrains then more recent Gas cars. Harder to fix but In reality most EV's have minimal or almost zero connecting drivetrain. They lack a normal drive shaft, no transmission, no torque converter, few U-Joints. A few might have hints of these parts but it is motor direct to wheels or wheel axel mostly.


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## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2022)

Is the gas formula different in the winter as well?


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## Dickc (Dec 31, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Is the gas formula different in the winter as well?


Its kind of a long article, but it explains the difference between summer blends and winter blends pretty well.









						The Vapor Rub: Summer versus Winter Gasoline Explained
					

Starting in 1989 before the 1990 Clean Air Act, the Environmental Protection Agency began restricting the volatility of retail gasoline sold in the summer. Here's why.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## MidnightJester (Jan 3, 2023)

A brother and sister say they had to stop 6 times in one day to charge their rented Tesla in cold weather after the battery drained quickly
					

Xaviar and Alice Steavenson said they paid up to $30 each time they needed to recharge their car on their road trip from Orlando to Wichita.




					ca.style.yahoo.com


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## skef (Jan 3, 2023)




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## MidnightJester (Jan 3, 2023)

That's a really good video. A few things to add to the comparison of ICE cars and EV cars and picked up on a few things. Apparently charging the EV's mid drive is the major help to having a warmer battery and charging time. Not sure if driving in the cold with longer distances up mountains you can risk not charging the last 15-20% of battery to save time. I not sure but I believe he has the largest battery pack they have in his EV

1-He ran his test in optimum traffic conditions with very little braking I am thinking. Not that you cant do that in a Gas car but the lack of re-accelerating the tesla to speed is more of a draw then in Gas vehicles with a transmission. Slow and Stop and go in hilly snowy traffic the differences would be more severe.
2-The Tesla charging stations have a lower per Kilowatt cost then normal in their memberships or with a purchase of a Tesla. They are only now allowing non-Tesla's to charge there not sure of the costs if its the same.
3-If I applied his driving and charging habits into a one was safer drive to Mid-Northern Vermont from NY I would be stopping 3 or 4 times at 30 minutes to 45 minutes a stop. 2 or 3 times if I was to push its limits in the cold. For me losing more then a hour up to two hours with charging times would throw driving and making it to mountains in time almost impossible on day trips.
4-Losing anytime in worsening and deteriorating weather while charging a EV risks becoming a trip time multiplier or trip breaker if connecting time matters.
5-Because his trip was more of a cross country trip and not a more focused destination I don't believe he lost much time with getting to and back from a Tesla charging location. He just stopped at any one just about anywhere without it mattering.
6-He mentions never having a issue with finding a charging location. He did this video in the middle of the pandemic with lockdowns possible even it seems.

In EV's Favor If you nap of sleep while at the super charger I see it as a Bonus in trip time regardless and safety/awareness if arrival time is not a prime factor.

Found this.
Another factor to note is that Superchargers occasionally charge idle fees. If a station is more than 50% full, Tesla will tack on an additional cost for every minute your car stays plugged in after it’s fully charged. According to Tesla, that fee is 50 cents per minute at 50% capacity and $1 per minute at 100%.


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## skiur (Jan 6, 2023)

These spammers are getting pretty good!


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