# Note to Wachusett: They make helmets now



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

So I pick up the latest Wawa brochure and what immediately struck me was that *nobody *was wearing helmets except the kids in class.  I went then to the web site.  The only place I saw helmets was: kids in class (again), racers.  Then there was this preposterous warning that everyone should wear a helmet.  Hmmm.  But the ski store web prominently displayed helmets for sale.

What's wrong with this picture?  :dunce:


----------



## Black Phantom (Dec 9, 2011)

You would be better off wearing body armor. . Helmets are a scam.


----------



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> You would be better off wearing body armor. . Helmets are a scam.


Tell my head that!
Hey, what's that shiny thing in your avatar?


----------



## Abubob (Dec 9, 2011)

I found this interesting: http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/2/99.full.pdf



> Traumatic brain injuries were the leading cause of death (67% of all deaths) among children, while multiple internal injuries and traumatic brain injuries accounted for almost equal proportions of fatal injuries among adults. Collision was the leading external mechanism of fatal injuries, accounting for more than two thirds of fatal injuries in both child and adult skiers.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 9, 2011)

Its a free country, I personally hate the forced representation of helmets.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Dec 9, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> You would be better off wearing body armor. . Helmets are a scam.



Yup,looks like you were scammed along with myself.


----------



## Nick (Dec 9, 2011)

I always find it funny when we as a culture "try to hard" to be accepting. 

Like when you see advertisements for kids toys and there is always one black kid, one white girl, and one asian kid playing together... always at least a couple different races and at least one of each gender. I know that does happen here and ther but it always appears to me like they are just trying to hard... 

Like proving a point you know? 

Anyway whatever. This just made me think of that.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 9, 2011)

Here we go again!

I haven't seen the brochure in question, but it doesn't sound that offensive to me.


----------



## Abubob (Dec 9, 2011)

Then there's this: http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/facts-ski-snbd-safety.asp



> During the 2009/10 season, *38 fatalities* occurred out of the 59.8 million skier/snowboarder days reported for the season. Twenty-five of the fatalities were skiers (18 male, 7 female) and 13 of the fatalities were snowboarders, (12 male, 1 female). Among the fatalities, *19 of those involved were reported as wearing a helmet at the time of the incident.*



For those who can't do the math in their heads half of the riders died while wearing a helmet.


----------



## Black Phantom (Dec 9, 2011)

Not sure if billski is offended or not. Helmets have been fools gold though.


----------



## speden (Dec 9, 2011)

Well despite the marketing, lots of people, maybe even a majority, wear helmets there.  Maybe that's because it attracts a younger crowd that has grown up wearing bike helmets and ski helmets.


----------



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Not sure if billski is offended or not. Helmets have been fools gold though.



My original point is that wawa is talking out of both sides of their mouth.  Promote it, but don't represent it or set a good example.  Go to any hill and you will find vastly more helmets than the marketing pictures represent.  In fact, wawa is not alone, many do it, just not as pervasively.

BTW, I'm a libertarian at heart.  Wear what you want, or nothing at all.  Drive the way you want.  Just don't take me with you.

As someone who has suffered TBI, and a spouse who also suffered hospitalization due to a skier-induced concussion,  I still don't get your assertion about "fools gold".  Tell me more.

Offended?  Reasonable people have reasonable discussions.  It hasn't gone personal, and thus no infraction incurred.  

BTW, I won a set of snow shoes at the club meeting last night.  I'm not wearing a helmet!


----------



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Its a free country, I personally hate the forced representation of helmets.



How about a balanced or more accurate portrayal.

BTW the gov. of RI got a lot of flack for calling "A holiday tree".  I could draw an analogy to a holiday candle holder instead of a Menorah.  Have all the displays you want.  Just don't show a representation of just one.


----------



## Black Phantom (Dec 9, 2011)

billski said:


> My original point is that wawa is talking out of both sides of their mouth.  Promote it, but don't represent it or set a good example.  Go to any hill and you will find vastly more helmets than the marketing pictures represent.  In fact, wawa is not alone, many do it, just not as pervasively.
> 
> BTW, I'm a libertarian at heart.  Wear what you want, or nothing at all.  Drive the way you want.  Just don't take me with you.
> 
> ...



I understood your point. 

Most helmets that are currently worn by the vast majority of the sliders out there have been comprised and will not provide the level of safety needed to prevent an injury. Read the fine print that comes with the helmet. 

I know they are warmer.  

Snow shoeing is great exercise. I think you will enjoy them far more than hiking. Good luck with them!


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 9, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Its a free country, I personally hate the forced representation of helmets.


I think I might agree with you, but I have know idea what "forced representation" means.  Help?




Abubob said:


> Then there's this: http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/facts-ski-snbd-safety.asp
> 
> For those who can't do the math in their heads half of the riders died while wearing a helmet.


Helmet stats don't work that way.  It's like saying "Bob died in a car accident despite the fact he was on cholesterol medication.  So clearly those meds don't work".   The stats to look at are the number of people who have _survived_ head trauma as a result of wearing a helmet.




Black Phantom said:


> Helmets have been fools gold though.


How so?


----------



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

> Most helmets that are currently worn by the vast majority of the sliders out there have been comprised and will not provide the level of safety needed to prevent an injury. Read the fine print that comes with the helmet.



That's precisely why I'm on my third helmet.  No less a reason.




> Snow shoeing is great exercise. I think you will enjoy them far more than hiking. Good luck with them!



Nah, I'm too lazy.   I only need them when I go to officiate at the Thunderbolt!  



Hey Nick where is the smilie of a boarder catching air?


----------



## millerm277 (Dec 9, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> The stats to look at are the number of people who have _survived_ head trauma as a result of wearing a helmet.



Well, against the number who survived head trauma while not wearing a helmet.

Generally, all of the conclusions I've read are: They will often save you from a concussion or other minor head injury, which can be a good reason to wear them. They're not going to save your life with any reasonable frequency.


----------



## Method9455 (Dec 9, 2011)

Abubob said:


> Then there's this: http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/facts-ski-snbd-safety.asp
> 
> 
> 
> For those who can't do the math in their heads half of the riders died while wearing a helmet.



That's a very interesting link.

I found this is really the bottom line 


> recent research has shown that the use of helmet reduces the incidence of any head injury by 30 to 50 percent, but that the decrease in head injuries is generally limited to the less serious injuries such as scalp lacerations, mild concussions (Grade I) and contusions to the head, as opposed to more serious injuries such as concussions greater than Grade II, skull fractures, closed head injuries and the like. There has been no significant reduction in fatalities



I always wear a helmet skiing. I've had several crashes that didn't give me a concussion but did dent or seriously damage the helmet. I've also had some that gave me a concussion even with a helmet. I'll obviously take the extra protection but it's not as fool proof as people think. 

This part gave me a shudder because that pretty much describes me



> Most of those fatally injured are above-average skiers and snowboarders who are going at high rates of speed on the margins of intermediate trails.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Dec 9, 2011)

billski said:


> Hey, what's that shiny thing in your avatar?


You don't ski killington do you?


----------



## Black Phantom (Dec 9, 2011)

ALLSKIING said:


> You don't ski killington do you?


----------



## 〽❄❅ (Dec 9, 2011)

*...some drive Volvos, others Harleys -*

interesting discussion on the state of Ski Helmets: 
http://www.wildsnow.com/4713/ski-helmets-backcountry/

Btw, i was a early adopter of bike helmets around 30years ago, even saved me from head trauma when cartwheeled over a car that blew thru a intersection. I wear a helmet inline speed skating. Skiing no, although i probably would if i skied busy weekends.


----------



## billski (Dec 9, 2011)

〽❄❅;670901 said:
			
		

> interesting discussion on the state of Ski Helmets:
> http://www.wildsnow.com/4713/ski-helmets-backcountry/
> 
> Btw, i was a early adopter of bike helmets around 30years ago, even saved me from head trauma when cartwheeled over a car that blew thru a intersection. I wear a helmet inline speed skating. Skiing no, although i probably would if i skied busy weekends.



Me too.  Circa 1975.  But my wife and kids made me "fashion up" about 10 years ago


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2011)

Abubob said:


> For those who can't do the math in their heads half of the riders died while wearing a helmet.


Where are your stats regarding how many people wearing helmets didn't die or become seriously injured because of wearing a helmet? You are approaching the statistic backwards.

No one ever said helmets protect you from 100% of brain related injury or death. The industry has studies showing that helmets are only effective below a certain rate of impact. You can wear a helmet and die due to brain trauma. And you can not wear a helmet and survive a header. These two facts do not exclude that helmets can help improve your chances of survival and decrease chances of trauma in an accident.

Saying a person died due to brain injury with or without a helmet is not a logical way of supporting or being against helmet use, that is just poor reasoning.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2011)

Abubob said:


> For those who can't do the math in their heads half of the riders died while wearing a helmet.



Mathematically speaking, this tells you absolutely nothing.



riverc0il said:


> Saying a person died due to brain injury with or without a helmet is not a logical way of supporting or being against helmet use, that is just poor reasoning.



Yup.  It's an equation where they didnt give you enough information to solve for X.  I'd like to know how many of the "with helmet" and "without helmet" were involved in accidents in the first place. 

It would be interesting to know what percentage of "all-in" skiers and snowboarders wear them at this point out of curiousity.  I just bought one the other week for the first time in my life.  I am well-aware that helmets probably dont do much, and will likely only help in an "ejection accident" or maybe a weird sideways fall in the woods (hello Mr. tree), but I just finally figured better safer than sorry, right?.


----------



## peterk123 (Dec 10, 2011)

I think all the studies about helmets miss out on a very important point.  The helmet gives me additional added security, meaning I'm willing to take a head shot.  What this allows me to do is not put my arms out, which results in less shoulder injuries.  I also don't twist myself into awkward positions to protect my head, again reducing injuries.  I can't be the only one that does  this, am I?  

I find it even more important when downhill mountain biking.  

Pete


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> I am well-aware that helmets probably dont do much, and will likely only help in an "ejection accident" or maybe a weird sideways fall in the woods (hello Mr. tree), but I just finally figured better safer than sorry, right?.


They actually do a lot. I've had several small bumps in which I was thankful for the protection, minor donks could have but a painful bump on my head or worse. Helmets aren't going to save you from taking a 40 MPH header into a tree. But they are great for thunking branches in the trees, having safety bars come down on your head, and a fall in which your head slams into the hard pack.


----------



## filejw (Dec 10, 2011)

billski said:


> My original point is that wawa is talking out of both sides of their mouth.  Promote it, but don't represent it or set a good example.  Go to any hill and you will find vastly more helmets than the marketing pictures represent.  In fact, wawa is not alone, many do it, just not as pervasively.
> 
> BTW, I'm a libertarian at heart.  Wear what you want, or nothing at all.  Drive the way you want.  Just don't take me with you.
> 
> ...



Then again i noticed last winter in TV ads the owners did have helmets on


----------



## KD7000 (Dec 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> But they are great for thunking branches in the trees, having safety bars come down on your head, and a fall in which your head slams into the hard pack.


Couldn't agree more.  I don't necessarily expect my helmet to save my life, I expect it to protect me from incidental bumps that could otherwise be much worse.  It's awesome for that.


----------



## catskills (Dec 10, 2011)

I am 15 year volunteer ski patroller and EMT-B.  Seen many 100s of cases of major trauma on the slopes and motor vehicle accidents (MVAs).  Personally I have never seen any long lasting quality of life head trauma on the slopes.  Then again most of them were wearing helmets. The trauma patients in cars that I have personally worked on wearing seat  belts and air bags deployed with no helmets on the other hand, a few of them had significant head trauma that did affect their long term quality of life.    Obviously my sample size is statistically small to draw any scientific conclusions.   

*Real Data*
30 to 40 skiers and riders die of non avalanche related trauma every year in the USA. This hasn't changed much in 30 years.  

Over 40,000 Americans die every year due to MVA trauma.  

Maybe we should see more car commercials and car advertisements with the drivers and passengers wearing helmets.


----------



## lolkl (Dec 10, 2011)

They make your goggles last forever


----------



## Abubob (Dec 10, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Where are your stats regarding how many people wearing helmets didn't die or become seriously injured because of wearing a helmet? You are approaching the statistic backwards.
> 
> No one ever said helmets protect you from 100% of brain related injury or death. The industry has studies showing that helmets are only effective below a certain rate of impact. You can wear a helmet and die due to brain trauma. And you can not wear a helmet and survive a header. These two facts do not exclude that helmets can help improve your chances of survival and decrease chances of trauma in an accident.
> 
> Saying a person died due to brain injury with or without a helmet is not a logical way of supporting or being against helmet use, that is just poor reasoning.



The studies never said that persons dying while wearing helmets died of brain injury. It is more likely (what follows is an opinion - which is my own) that at least some of these persons, if not most, died of massive internal injury and the helmet was of no consequence. It only shows what you yourself are saying and what every one should know already -  that wearing a helmet is no guarantee that you won't be seriously injured in a fall. 

I could find no studies online that indicated any evidence that a helmet saved a life. I will tell you this however: my brother cracked his helmet after skiing into a tree. It probably saved him from a concussion at the very least.

Makes me wonder about motocross riders that travel much the same speeds (my opinion) albeit over rougher terrain wear body armor in addition to helmets. Just reasonable precaution in a dangerous sport.

Btw - I wear a helmet when I ski or bike ride but I don't wear any body armor.


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 10, 2011)

catskills said:


> 30 to 40 skiers and riders die of non avalanche related trauma every year in the USA. This hasn't changed much in 30 years.
> 
> Over 40,000 Americans die every year due to MVA trauma.
> 
> Maybe we should see more car commercials and car advertisements with the drivers and passengers wearing helmets.



Those aren't really comparable stats though since there are WAY more drivers than skiers.  The actual rates aren't as extreme....but your point still holds up....

~200 fatalities per million licensed drivers.  http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1114.pdf

3.8 fatalities per million ski/snowboard participants http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/facts-ski-snbd-safety.asp


----------



## Edd (Dec 10, 2011)

Helmet threads are a vortex.


----------



## billski (Dec 10, 2011)

Edd said:


> Helmet threads are a vortex.



 I did not intend to  create a monster.  Mea culpa. 

Next thing you know, they'll be wanting me to wear a jacket!  






Did a helmet save his life?


----------



## Abubob (Dec 10, 2011)

Edd said:


> Helmet threads are a vortex.



Lets make it about body armor. Really not much unprotected here...


----------



## Abubob (Dec 10, 2011)

I just had to laugh...

But its *NOT* funny!!


----------



## skimawk (Dec 10, 2011)

billski said:


> So I pick up the latest Wawa brochure and what immediately struck me was that *nobody *was wearing helmets except the kids in class.  I went then to the web site.  The only place I saw helmets was: kids in class (again), racers.  Then there was this preposterous warning that everyone should wear a helmet.  Hmmm.  But the ski store web prominently displayed helmets for sale.
> 
> What's wrong with this picture?  :dunce:



When you look at a lot of the past brochures and website pics they are all old pictures.  They stick with many old photos.  Don't spend money if you don't have too.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 11, 2011)

Full disclosure. I dont wear a helmet while snowboarding. I do wear a helmet mountain biking. Im a hypocrite, I know. 

But I dont think the discussion on whether or not it should be more represented in an ad, and by default, forcing people to wear, should be had at all. 

Im not going to argue that it isnt safer to wear a helmet. Its a fools argument. I might argue that it makes a difference between open or closed casket when it comes down to it, and concussions occur with helmets all the time. But Ill just concede helmets=safer. 

This is like seat belt arguments. My not wearing a helmet in no way affects you, your kids, your grandmother, or your on/off hill experience in any way. There is absolutely no reason it needs to be discussed outside of your mother telling you to wear one, cause thats what they do. 

And this is just about an ad. How does the representation of helmet usage by employees in a ski school marketing ad make any difference? As mentioned, the kids are wearing them. 

I would have more issue with Nova Scotia making it mandatory for everyone, at any ski hill (hills a perfect descriptor here), to wear a helmet.


----------



## Nick (Dec 11, 2011)

In general I agree with that..... let people make their own stupid decisions. Where I typically don't agree with that is in 2 cases; 

1. Kids .... who need decisions made for them. I can't imagine it being OK to allow your kid to get in a car w/o a seatbelt. Maybe that's partially my age, I'msure 20 years ago that was also different. 
2. When it does impact others, at least financially. Example: in Massachusetts the reason they want to enforce motororcycle helmets is b/c if you wreck, and you don't have sufficient insurance,the state ends up picking up the tab. So they claim there is a vested interested in enforcing helmet laws b/c it theoretically reduces liability from the state. 

Again, I'm just laying it out... not saying I agree or disagree with helmet laws in MA either. Just saying those are the 2 reasons I could see where you could be compelled to make a law about something safety related. 

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 11, 2011)

The financial argument is bunk but can be applied to any argument where someone is forced to buy and use something. How many examples can you come up with where someone is costing the state due to their negligence over not using a helmet?


----------



## Edd (Dec 11, 2011)

I started a thread once about Ski Magazine not showing helmets in photos. I haven't checked this season but at the time I felt that the percentage of helmet photos did not reflect reality on the slopes. It is weird.


----------



## Abubob (Dec 11, 2011)

Ever since I've started contributing to this thread and ad for xsportsprotective.com comes up everywhere


----------



## filejw (Dec 11, 2011)

Abubob said:


> Ever since I've started contributing to this thread and ad for xsportsprotective.com comes up everywhere



I have a mid 20's son that runs and online business store and he could explain it better but think cookies and ad-ware or word search.Remember advertising is what keeps a site like this up and running.


----------



## chevling (Dec 11, 2011)

Anyway, back to wachusett - most of the pictures are taken before opening, when they have employee training going on. If you ever really look at their stuff, you'll see its generally the same group of people in every picture. No helmets cause theres no usable snow.


----------



## billski (Dec 11, 2011)

Abubob said:


> Ever since I've started contributing to this thread and ad for xsportsprotective.com comes up everywhere



I'd much rather get targeted ads rather than ads for a facial, or a Disney cruise.  However, once I started shopping for ski helmets I've been innundated with ads from the same place.  It would not be so annoying if the price kept coming down.  8)


----------



## witch hobble (Dec 11, 2011)

I'll be wearing my new chainmail union suit (w/crap flap), a Kabuto, and the Kinco insulated work glove. Affixed to my lurk will be a pruning saw on one end and a pitch fork on the other.  Watch out for me!!


----------



## billski (Dec 11, 2011)

witch hobble said:


> I'll be wearing my new chainmail union suit (w/crap flap), a Kabuto, and the Kinco insulated work glove. Affixed to my lurk will be a pruning saw on one end and a pitch fork on the other.  Watch out for me!!



You must have a football jersey, don't you?


----------



## mattchuck2 (Dec 11, 2011)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1  THEY"RE NOT WEARING HELMETS ON THE WEBSITE OR IN THE BROCHURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  WTF?!?!?!!?!?!?  OMG!!!!!!!!!!  

Who cares?  I can't believe we have to have another stupid helmet thread because there was an insufficient number of people wearing a helmet in some marketing material you saw once.  

Can't we get to a point where we all agree that helmet use is a personal choice (except in Nova Scotia, or if you're an employee of certain resorts), and people can do whatever they want?  

And I hate to burst your bubble, but ski areas like to portray a carefree, fun-filled attitude in their promotional material.  Huge brain buckets don't scream "I'm a rad mountain man", they scream "I'm someone who is very rational about the risks and dangers associated with downhill snowsports and my choice to wear a helmet is a decision based in a very complex risk/reward calculation".  You might as well picture someone in gaiters, reflective tape, and one of those butt pad thingies. 

That's not to say we won't get to the point where you see a helmet and you think "serious skier".  We're pretty much there with biking.  If you see a mountain biker with no helmet, you assume he has some kind of death wish, and he's an idiot.  We'll probably get to that point with skiing, but it's definitely not like that now.


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 11, 2011)

mattchuck2 said:


> That's not to say we won't get to the point where you see a helmet and you think "serious skier".  We're pretty much there with biking.  If you see a mountain biker with no helmet, you assume he has some kind of death wish, and he's an idiot.  We'll probably get to that point with skiing, but it's definitely not like that now.



It's like that now.  Personal choice for sure.  But when I see a skier without a helmet I definitely think "idiot".


----------



## mattchuck2 (Dec 11, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> It's like that now.  Personal choice for sure.  But when I see a skier without a helmet I definitely think "idiot".



Haha . . . Well I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but this guy doesn't seem like an idiot to me:


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 11, 2011)

Glenn Plake doesn't seem like an idiot to you?  Love the guy and he can ski like a MoFo....but he's the poster child for 'idiot'.  

A couple of years ago at HoJos I had to give him directions into the bowl because he had lost his camera crew/guides.


----------



## mattchuck2 (Dec 11, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> Glenn Plake doesn't seem like an idiot to you?  Love the guy and he can ski like a MoFo....but he's the poster child for 'idiot'.
> 
> A couple of years ago at HoJos I had to give him directions into the bowl because he had lost his camera crew/guides.



Congratulations?  

Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion.  I guess I would argue that just because someone doesn't know where he's going on a mountain he's not familiar with, that doesn't make him an idiot.

And I guess I would also say that saying something like "If you're not wearing a ski helmet, I assume you're an idiot" is a bit like saying, "If you're not wearing steel toed boots, I assume you're an idiot", and making such judgments on something so trivial would be ridiculous and irrational, but since I don't like to get involved in these stupid helmet threads, I will just let it go.


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 11, 2011)

mattchuck2 said:


> And I guess I would also say that saying something like "If you're not wearing a ski helmet, I assume you're an idiot" is a bit like saying, "If you're not wearing steel toed boots, I assume you're an idiot", and making such judgments on something so trivial would be ridiculous and irrational,



Wouldn't it be even more like saying?



mattchuck2 said:


> If you see a mountain biker with no helmet, you assume he has some kind of death wish, and he's an idiot.


----------



## mattchuck2 (Dec 11, 2011)

Yeah, but that's cause I suck at mountain biking, and I've fell on my head a few times, so I know how hard the rocks are on the ground. 

I don't suck nearly as much at skiing, and I've never hit my head on anything (except for one landing on a 540 when my skis augered in and I snapped backwards).  I do have a helmet (I just bought a new one actually), and I wear it when I'm doing stupid stuff (park, etc.), but I find that it has the effect of giving me a false sense of security, so I take more risks than I normally do.  Generally, I ski without a helmet, and I'm fine.

And I don't think I'm completely out of line in saying that there is definitely a difference in how people view cycling (particularly mountain biking) and skiing with regards to helmets.  There's a different reaction when you see a mountain biker with no helmet and a skier with no helmet. And really, I said if YOU see a mountain biker with no helmet, YOU assume he has some kind of death wish and he's an idiot.  I didn't say what I thought.  I was making a general statement about how people perceive the two sports, hoping to get into a discussion about why that is, and if the attitude among bikers is something that we should aspire to with regards to skiing.  I wasn't trying to call anyone an idiot . . . Unfortunately, you decided to do that immediately after my post.


----------



## 〽❄❅ (Dec 11, 2011)

*short story, and i want my new Rossi E88's from epicski for it d@mit!*

Two different sports but:

A good friend i casually inline skate with and i ran into a guy who i had helped find his recreational skate axle when i spotted him broken down on the trail the previous fall. As it turned out he had purchased a pair of semi custom performance skates over the winter which i had recommended. 

When we saw him on the trail in the spring i asked how he liked the new skates, yadda yadda so on and so fourth... He introduced himself to my friend saying; "I'm a Neurologist that's why i wear a helmet", she replied, "I'm a Psychiatrist that's why i don't, lol.

True story, and yes she really is a doctor (psychiatrist), she doesn't just play one on tv.


----------



## Cannonball (Dec 11, 2011)

^ fair enough all around Matt

Helmet story from yesterday:  Driving down the street I see 3 kids on skateboards cruising down the sidewalk.  One of them immediately  faceplants onto the pavement....he's the only one of the 3 without a helmet.  He's sitting on the ground with a very unhappy look on his face rubbing his forehead while the other 2 stand there looking at him.  I couldn't hear them but their expressions and body language screamed "dude!! that's why you wear a helmet!!".  He looked like he'd live so I chuckled and kept driving.  

When I think back on all the times I cracked my head as a kid I wonder..... was it all those falls or the chronic drug use that made me the idiot I am today.  If I had to go back and choose I'd wear a helmet and keep the drugs.


----------



## C-Rex (Dec 12, 2011)

I say helmet is a personal choice.  But if you crack your noggin open and weren't wearing one, then I get to laugh at you while ski patrol is loading you on a sled.  Fair enough?


----------



## jaja111 (Dec 12, 2011)

Helmets must work to some degree. If mine were a nuisance and the protection was minimal I'd rather not wear it. However, I have seen someone hit their head hard enough to have a grand mal seizure, and its a very convincing sight indeed to at least have something on your head.

Everyone knows about helmets, but to stir the pot further what about eye protection? That is definitely someone I believe is an idiot if you ski or board with nothing over your eyeballs.


----------



## The Sneak (Dec 12, 2011)

When I see someone on the hill without a helmet, I assume they are a foolish gaper. 
4 realz.


----------



## neil (Dec 12, 2011)

Wachusett is open and I'm seeing people on the webcams not wearing helmets.


----------



## bobbutts (Dec 12, 2011)

C-Rex said:


> I say helmet is a personal choice.  But if you crack your noggin open and weren't wearing one, then I get to laugh at you while ski patrol is loading you on a sled.  Fair enough?


You're welcome to laugh at people brain injuries.  People will label you a sociopath, but that will be ok since it's accurate.


----------



## aaronbru (Dec 12, 2011)

@ adubob.

Interesting stats on the second post.  It would be much more helpful if we knew the percentage of riders, overall, that wore helmets.  Without knowing that, the statistic of 'percentage of fatalities with helmets" don't give us a whole lot of information, except that helmets don't always save your life.

If 99% of riders wore helmets then your statistics support that we should wear helmets.
On the other hand, if only 1% of riders wear helmets, then I would deduce that helmets are a hazard.

Edit:  woops, I though I was replying to a recent post.  oh well.

I own a helmet but really only wear it when I'm planning to ski hard (usually by myself).


----------



## 〽❄❅ (Dec 12, 2011)

Here is a link wrt %'s of helmet wearers, iirc, it said 50% in the U.S. and 80% usage in Switzerland in 2010 - http://www.ski-injury.com/
And another related article by the guy from the previous site - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/s...ld-helmets-be-mandatory-The-case-against.html


----------



## 〽❄❅ (Dec 12, 2011)

...ya think the idiot gapper  http://www.wildsnow.com/6357/mammut-ride30-review/ 
would trade that Louis Vuitton for this Stetson: http://www.skis.com/mens-helmets/c1000003386/poc-receptor-backcountry-helmet-2012-p195466.html 

http://www.wavlist.com/movies/135/str-lightenup.wav


----------



## aaronbru (Dec 12, 2011)

So by this highly scientific study we have performed, we can conclude that helmets are no safer than no-helmets.

Because....  1/2 of fatal ski accidents occur to helmet wearers and 1/2 of skiers wear helmets.

Unless of course there is another variable... such as, helmet wearers are more agressive skiiers and are thus more likely to get in a fatal accident.  Then I concluded that helmets are safer.  
Or maybe helmet wearers fear danger more than non-helmet wearers, thus concluding that helmets are DANGEROUS!!!!

Looks like I'm leaving my neck-choker in the car! Wahoo! Helmets kill!


----------



## C-Rex (Dec 12, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> You're welcome to laugh at people brain injuries.  People will label you a sociopath, but that will be ok since it's accurate.



Take it easy, chief. I'm just making a point.  Why should I have sympathy for someone who could have prevented a serious injury but chose not to and suffered the consequences.  It's not tragic, it's evolution.


----------



## Black Phantom (Dec 12, 2011)

C-Rex said:


> Take it easy, chief. I'm just making a point.  Why should I have sympathy for someone who could have prevented a serious injury but chose not to and suffered the consequences.  It's not tragic, it's evolution.



You are a real wordsmith little man. You diabetic as well?


----------



## darent (Dec 12, 2011)

a friend of mine is a emergency physician, he loves the fact that New Hampshire doesn't have a motorcycle helmet law, "get a lot of organ donors from up there"


----------



## wa-loaf (Dec 12, 2011)

C-Rex said:


> I say helmet is a personal choice.  But if you crack your noggin open and weren't wearing one, then I get to laugh at you while ski patrol is loading you on a sled.  Fair enough?



I don't see a helmet in your profile pic .... :smash:



neil said:


> Wachusett is open and I'm seeing people on the webcams not wearing helmets.



I was there and there were lots of folks without them. They must have been taking photos for the website. :razz:


----------



## Abubob (Dec 12, 2011)

aaronbru said:


> @ adubob.
> 
> Interesting stats on the second post.  It would be much more helpful if we knew the percentage of riders, overall, that wore helmets.  Without knowing that, the statistic of 'percentage of fatalities with helmets" don't give us a whole lot of information, except that helmets don't always save your life.
> 
> ...



Well, they aren't my stats just those that I found. That half of the skiers that died *were* wearing helmets is a complete enough statistic for me. :smash:

This page shows some interesting stats: http://www.ski-injury.com/injury-statistics/stats1#type

Notice how head injuries stack up against other injures like contusions (blunt force trauma) that on the last chart is separate from head injuries. Still on the other charts head and neck are together and are second only to skiers knees and snowboarders wrists.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 13, 2011)

darent said:


> a friend of mine is a emergency physician, he loves the fact that New Hampshire doesn't have a motorcycle helmet law, "get a lot of organ donors from up there"



I often wonder how true this is. At low speeds, I know helmets help. But if you crash at a decent clip, it's probably not going to do a lot of good.


----------



## C-Rex (Dec 13, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> You are a real wordsmith little man. You diabetic as well?



I don't get it. 

Is that a quote or something, or are you trying to insult me?


----------



## C-Rex (Dec 13, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I don't see a helmet in your profile pic .... :smash:




That pic was taken on the hike up.  Helmet is clipped to my pack.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I often wonder how true this is. At low speeds, I know helmets help. But if you crash at a decent clip, it's probably not going to do a lot of good.



This.  

QFT.  

I handled a lawsuit involving a ski helmet and it is amazing how most folks don't know this fact.  Most helmets only protect you up to like 5mph.  After that forget about it...still better than nothing though.


----------



## witch hobble (Dec 13, 2011)

Shout out to mattchuck!  Articulately rebutted and excellent framing of very good questions.  Standing up for the helmetless isn't easy in these forums.  It takes a certain nuance that is often lost in the collection of opinions that these "debates" become.

My only contribution to the thread has been  to fling outlandish excrement.


----------



## jaja111 (Dec 15, 2011)

Check out motorcycle forum threads regarding not just helmets but protective gear in general. It looks like a motor oil thread on a car forum. Every hobby has its controversial point of contention.


----------



## mattchuck2 (Dec 15, 2011)

witch hobble said:


> Shout out to mattchuck!  Articulately rebutted and excellent framing of very good questions.  Standing up for the helmetless isn't easy in these forums.  It takes a certain nuance that is often lost in the collection of opinions that these "debates" become.
> 
> My only contribution to the thread has been  to fling outlandish excrement.



Haha, yeah, I'm tired of arguing the same thing in these helmet threads . . . thought it might be interesting to come at it from a different angle . . .


----------



## Nick (Dec 15, 2011)

FWIW I'm still kinda on the fence about it. I've never worn a helmet. I took some serious spills last year too. And I'm still fine. 

.....Although my wife might argue otherwise :lol:


----------

