# Wildcat behind the pack this year



## billski (Dec 15, 2013)

After this last snowfall, Wildcat is still at 6 out of 49 trails open and one lift operating.  According to an inquiry I posted on FB, they indicated that they could only open trails where they made snow.  Sorry guys, sounds like a shoestring operation for a top-flight mountain.  Probably has a lot to do with the fact it's a day trippers mountain, they're not allowed to build on site lodging etc. and probably some environmental concerns?   It's a shame, even Ragged has more open.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2013)

From what I've heard they've had some major malfunctions with their snowmaking system.


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## canobie#1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Ragged has a better system than wildcat anyway.  Wildcat blew it when they cancelled the opening on the lynx trail.  Lets hope for their sake we get another storm before x-mas.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 15, 2013)

Talked to a Wildcat regular at Crotched today.  They froze a snowmaking pipe on Upper Lynx, which I guess is the same pipe that also feeds over to Upper Pole Cat.  I guess either someone forgot to discharge the water in the pipe when it wasn't being used or the system malfunctioned.  Apparently when this happens you're pretty much screwed.  Wildcat actually brought a bunch of hay bails up to the frozen pipe, buried the pipe and set the hay on fire in an attempt to defrost the pipe, but it didn't work.   What will need to be done is they'll have to cut out the frozen section of the pipe and replace it.  No word if that's happened yet.

As much as it would be great for Wildcat to have an advanced snowmaking system to open the mountain quicker at the start of the year, it's not something I expect out of Wildcat.  They've always been poor at snowmaking, yet they always pretty much have one of if not the longest season in NH.  They get the most snow in the state (except Balsams) have a good Northwestern exposure and a 2000 foot base.  They'll be fine eventually.  I'm fine skiing elsewhere early season.


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## canobie#1 (Dec 15, 2013)

You'd think they would atleast snowmake on the lower bottom of the trails while the summit is un-avaible.


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## millerm277 (Dec 15, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> You'd think they would atleast snowmake on the lower bottom of the trails while the summit is un-avaible.



Depends on how it affects the rest of the system. If drain valves and other things are now blocked, trying to do other snowmaking could just ruin more of the system until they can fix it/work around it, or it may be impossible entirely.


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## yeggous (Dec 15, 2013)

Wildcat has really screwed up this year. They're about in the same shape as they were at this time the last two years, but their competition is WAY ahead. Peak Resorts really needs to reassess their investments or be prepared to lose customers.

They have been blowing on the lower mountain. Lower Lynx and Cheetah are open with a good base. Lower Wildcat opened today. They have been blowing on Lower Polecat too, though they'll need to add Tomcat or Middle Polecat to connect to a lift.

I just don't want to believe what a crappy situation they are in.


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## Angus (Dec 15, 2013)

They definitely have been investing in snowmaking since acquisitions so this sounds like an equipment failure as referenced above. I know from conversation, alot of pipe is really old. Speaking to them pre-season, they were very optimistic and plan was to open from top to bottom. too bad. for passholders, what's the deal at Attitash? Have they open more aggressively?


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## Yooper (Dec 15, 2013)

Yes I also noticed the last several years they seem to slow on the draw not sure if Tim Boyd of Peak Resorts purchase is coincidental with the problems but I surely do not recall problems of this nature prior.


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## canobie#1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Sounds to me like ragged mountain in 2007 when they had old pipes that didn't even work.  
Maybe bob fries should come in and save this place too lol


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## millerm277 (Dec 15, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> Sounds to me like ragged mountain in 2007 when they had old pipes that didn't even work.
> Maybe bob fries should come in and save this place too lol



The age of the pipes doesn't have anything to do with someone forgetting to open a valve and freezing the line up.

If they were having pipe blowouts or other leaks, then it'd be a problem. Not saying it isn't an issue more broadly speaking, but it isn't really related to this.


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## darent (Dec 15, 2013)

talked to a Attitash regular the other day and they had two trails open top to bottom, hope they got some of the latest snow.


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## yeggous (Dec 15, 2013)

darent said:


> talked to a Attitash regular the other day and they had two trails open top to bottom, hope they got some of the latest snow.



Try one trail top to bottom on the smaller side. The summit is still closed. Welcome to skiing according to Peak Resorts.


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## canobie#1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Wildcat opened uper lynx and middle wildcat today. 
They're running the tomcat and the express.

I gotta say, i am loving the attention given o the triple.  The ride up is so nice and the chair itself is awesome.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2013)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Wildcat has never really had a large snowmaking system nor been known as the "Sunday River" of New Hampshire.  The previous ownership had been running the mountain for a long time and had really gotten pretty tired.  They were ready to get out.  

As to Peaks, we're all forgetting that they are (or were) in the middle of trying to raise capital through an IPO.  So they have to be even more careful with regards to spending...I mean investing...in their resorts.  

Frozen pipes really suck.  It happened at Sugarbush a while back right near Heaven's Gate and I watched them on a frigid January day with an excavator trying to dig it out.  It also happened at Cannon a while back and had a devastating impact.  Like here, that ended snowmaking for that season.  Shit happens.  

I think the point regarding lodging needs to be expanded.  I think that Bill meant to say that their revenue streams are very limited and that if there were more streams of revenue that things might be different.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  

I also think that most would recognize that Wildcat has some very old infrastructure from the previous ownership that was very tired of being ski area owners and that such work does not get done overnight, especially in the WMNF with its review processes.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 16, 2013)

Cannon froze Upper Cannon's water line 2 years ago.They ended up finding at least a dozen leaks and never got to use it that winter.Last year they put a whole new line in.Wildcat might be in the same boat.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> Cannon froze Upper Cannon's water line 2 years ago.They ended up finding at least a dozen leaks and never got to use it that winter.Last year they put a whole new line in.Wildcat might be in the same boat.




Thanks.  I recall that it happened during a bad season when they really needed snowmaking and they couldn't do a thing because of cost and other issues.  It sucks.  

We've had some subzero temps over last weekend and I was surprised that Snowbird kept their fan guns going.  I figured that they would pull the plug to prevent freezing.  But no problems.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 16, 2013)

IMO, Wildcat tends to be slow openers in most years. I also think their trails tend to need more base than most mtns because of the combo of natural obstacles and wind.


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## yeggous (Dec 16, 2013)

The latest snow report says that they are blowing on lower polecat and wild kitten. They're clearly focusing on the lower mountain and trying to get some "family friendly" trails by Christmas. It is hard to imagine what they will be able to offer without Upper Polecat in the mix.

This weekend's liquid precipitation is going to kill off their natural snow trails from the summit. I think their plan for the frozen pipe is to wait for summer. They must be screwed if they still are not blowing on Upper Lynx.


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## Smellytele (Dec 16, 2013)

yeggous said:


> This weekend's liquid precipitation is going to kill off their natural snow trails from the summit.



Supposed to be not in the liquid form for the most part up there so


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## Angus (Dec 17, 2013)

Been discussed here, how the combination of Attitash/Wildcat is an analog to SR/Sugarloaf - start off early for passholders at one area and go late at the other. Boyne is executing well, looks like Peaks is stumbling. Flip side is the folks at Mt. Snow seem to be happy and crotched too, so go figure.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 17, 2013)

Angus said:


> Been discussed here, how the combination of Attitash/Wildcat is an analog to SR/Sugarloaf - start off early for passholders at one area and go late at the other. Boyne is executing well, looks like Peaks is stumbling. Flip side is the folks at Mt. Snow seem to be happy and crotched too, so go figure.



I never really considered Attitash as an "early" area; usually Thanksgiving if then.  Wildcat went late if they had the snow.  I think the analog is accurate in terms of terrain choices and reputation of difficulty.


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## yeggous (Dec 17, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I never really considered Attitash as an "early" area; usually Thanksgiving if then.  Wildcat went late if they had the snow.  I think the analog is accurate in terms of terrain choices and reputation of difficulty.



Wildcat has recently been opening with very limited terrain for Thanksgiving and Attitash has been getting into the action the second or third week of December. Attitash does not even start making snow until December. Attitash also pulls the plug at the end of March, while Wildcat will stay open as long as the snow holds out.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 17, 2013)

Well looks like Wildcat has expanded to some of its advanced terrain up top. Who knows though.....When they say Lift Lion and Top Cat are open, it could be anywhere from 100 yards worth of vert or 2,000!


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## yeggous (Dec 17, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> Well looks like Wildcat has expanded to some of its advanced terrain up top. Who knows though.....When they say Lift Lion and Top Cat are open, it could be anywhere from 100 yards worth of vert or 2,000!



They meant there is a 300 feet of vertical in a skiable line with rocks sticking out. That'll disappear this weekend. Wildcat has a very aggressive opening policy; they'll call it open if there *might* be a skiable line using rock skis.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 17, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Wildcat has a very aggressive opening policy; they'll call it open if there *might* be a skiable line using rock skis.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



That's a good thing IMO!


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's a good thing IMO!



+1


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## yeggous (Dec 17, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> That's a good thing IMO!



+2


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 18, 2013)

Anyone going to be around on Saturday?


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## yeggous (Dec 18, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> Anyone going to be around on Saturday?



Not unless Sunday's forecast improves, which is highly unlikely. Don't want to be up there on Monday for the great refreeze. Thinking about hitting up Crotched for Saturday through Tuesday and then heading up to North Conway for Christmas through New Years.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 18, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Not unless Sunday's forecast improves, which is highly unlikely. Don't want to be up there on Monday for the great refreeze. Thinking about hitting up Crotched for Saturday through Tuesday and then heading up to North Conway for Christmas through New Years.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



Looks as though Saturday might be a pretty good day. Looks as though they may get snow before it changes to the other stuff on Sunday.


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## billski (Dec 18, 2013)

Angus said:


> Been discussed here,


  Thanks for the reminder


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## yeggous (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm taking bets on whether this warmup thawed out that frozen pipe. 3-4 days of above-freezing temperatures just might do the trick. My money is that we may actually see upper mountain snow making next week.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 22, 2013)

Wildcat was in sad shape yesterday. Until they get a major storm or the snowmaking situation under control they are in deep trouble. Catapult was in good shape. As was Middle/Lower Lynx. Wildcat Pitch was the only skiable ungroomed trail on the mtn (it skied amazing). Skied Attitash in the afternoon....I am normally not a big fan but they have done a phenomenal job last week with snow making. Great coverage and they should be okay for xmas vacation


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## yeggous (Dec 22, 2013)

Just checked their snow report. It looks like they will have 10 trails (really 1.5 routes) and 58 acres open tomorrow. Wildcat will be a disaster on Tuesday once the little terrain that they have refreezes. Compare their offerings to Cannon's 25 trails and 64 acres. Everyone who is complaining about Cannon really needs to keep this in mind. It could be worse: come on over and see for yourself!

Attitash sits on their ass until mid-December, but they do a good job once they finally decide to get in the game. They have the capacity and willingness to cover the entire mountain and expand terrain quickly. They actively show that they only care about the money-making holiday weeks. They will pull out all the stops to be competitive for the next two weeks.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 22, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Just checked their snow report. It looks like they will have 10 trails (really 1.5 routes) and 58 acres open tomorrow. Wildcat will be a disaster on Tuesday once the little terrain that they have refreezes. Compare their offerings to Cannon's 25 trails and 64 acres. Everyone who is complaining about Cannon really needs to keep this in mind. It could be worse: come on over and see for yourself!
> 
> Attitash sits on their ass until mid-December, but they do a good job once they finally decide to get in the game. They have the capacity and willingness to cover the entire mountain and expand terrain quickly. They actively show that they only care about the money-making holiday weeks. They will pull out all the stops to be competitive for the next two weeks.



3 of the trails are on the beginner slope and 2 are connector trails. Basically 2 choices Catapult and Lynx. That's if the can maintain the connector from Catapult to Lynx. There wasn't much snow left on it on Saturday and that's before the rain hit.


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## yeggous (Dec 22, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> 3 of the trails are on the beginner slope and 2 are connector trails. Basically 2 choices Catapult and Lynx. That's if the can maintain the connector from Catapult to Lynx. There wasn't much snow left on it on Saturday and that's before the rain hit.



The snow report states that they're planning to run both the Tomcat and Summit lift. That may be because they think the connector will be gone.

How does Upper Catapult look off the summit? Were they able to blow enough snow on it?


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 22, 2013)

yeggous said:


> The snow report states that they're planning to run both the Tomcat and Summit lift. That may be because they think the connector will be gone.
> 
> How does Upper Catapult look off the summit? Were they able to blow enough snow on it?



That makes sense then. Lynx and Catapult both had great coverage and should be fine after the storm. Cheetah was okay too. Nothing for experts though unless they open up Wildcat Pitch once the snow softens. Lots of fun whales and bumps.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 23, 2013)

Looks like they may have the frozen lines resolved.The report says they will start making snow on Upper Catapult when the temps drop.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 23, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Compare their offerings to Cannon's 25 trails and 64 acres. Everyone who is complaining about Cannon really needs to keep this in mind. It could be worse: come on over and see for yourself!
> .


I keep the following in mind:Wildcat has been crippled with frozen water lines from a snowmaking system that was already historicaly inadequate.
Cannon has been cheering their 180 new snoguns and how great they perform.
Yet they both have about the same acreage open and Wildcat is skiing from the SUMMIT.

It should be a slam dunk but its not.


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## drjeff (Dec 23, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> Looks like they may have the frozen lines resolved.The report says they will start making snow on Upper Catapult when the temps drop.




That may be one of the only GOOD side effects that the blast furnace of the last few days may have bestoyed upon the New England ski industry, if they were what enable the frozen pipe issue to "cure" itself


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2013)

I might be mistaken, but I don't believe the piping on Upper Catapult was the issue.  They've already blown on that trail and opened it. I believe the issue was the piping on Upper Lynx, which continues on to Upper Polecat.  Until we see snowmaking operations on those trails, we won't know if the issues have been resolved.  Some communication from the mountain would be nice.......


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2013)

my bad.  no communication until now.  they're claiming snowmaking operations will begin on Polecat as soon as temps allow.  Hopefully they can rapidly get it open.  It would be a shame if their signature trail isn't open for much of the Holiday week.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> my bad.  no communication until now.  they're claiming snowmaking operations will begin on Polecat as soon as temps allow.  Hopefully they can rapidly get it open.  It would be a shame if their signature trail isn't open for much of the Holiday week.



They were hooking up the hoses on Saturday. I assume this means the issue was fixed.


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## glennz (Dec 23, 2013)

They had portable guns at the top of Polecat/Lynx this weekend before it go too warm, and are claiming they are going to work on Upper Polecat once the cold returns.  Upper Catapult has been open since the storm the weekend before last.  We bailed and went to Attitiash and talked to many other passholders who did the same.  They basically had one way down from the top that was groomed.  Anything ungroomed was too much for me due to the weight of the snow.  They closed the Tomcat chair for some reason on Fri and Sat making Middle and Lower Lynx virtually inaccessible (required a battle through 1 - 2 ft of heavy wet crud to reach), even though they claimed they were open.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> my bad.  no communication until now.  they're claiming snowmaking operations will begin on Polecat as soon as temps allow.  Hopefully they can rapidly get it open.  It would be a shame if their signature trail isn't open for much of the Holiday week.



Yup.see post 39


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## deadheadskier (Dec 23, 2013)

SIKSKIER said:


> Yup.see post 39



Post 39 said upper catapult.  That's where I got confused.  They had already been making snow on that trail.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Post 39 said upper catapult.  That's where I got confused.  They had already been making snow on that trail.



Duh.Sorry,pay no attention to the guy behind the avatar.


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## yeggous (Dec 31, 2013)

Got an update. In addition to the frozen pipe on upper lynx they have blown out a pipe on upper catapult. They are being forced to blow lower on the mountain and push it up.

Lower Polecat still has sections with no blown snow. As usual most of the natural snow is blown off.

No snow guns currently running and it's perfect weather. This is worse than my already low expectations. This is an unmitigated disaster.


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## JDMRoma (Dec 31, 2013)

yeggous said:


> No snow guns currently running and it's perfect weather. This is worse than my already low expectations. This is an unmitigated disaster.


No snow guns right now is discouraging for sure....Im actually surprised BW has stopped snow making as well right now, atleast according to their snow report of the past few days.  I havent been up lately but this is not good !


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## yeggous (Dec 31, 2013)

I can confirm that Bretton Woodshas not made snow all week. I was just there yesterday.


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## JDMRoma (Dec 31, 2013)

yeggous said:


> I can confirm that Bretton Woodshas not made snow all week. I was just there yesterday.


Thats a Bummer….it probably gets skied off pretty fast too….


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## Edd (Dec 31, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Lower Polecat still has sections with no blown snow. As usual most of the natural snow is blown off.



If that's the case then that's bad. Real bad.


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## yeggous (Dec 31, 2013)

yeggous said:


> I can confirm that Bretton Woodshas not made snow all week. I was just there yesterday.



If you have good edges then it is fine. I was impressed. The natural snow went a long way.


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## yeggous (Dec 31, 2013)

Edd said:


> If that's the case then that's bad. Real bad.



Worse than my pessimistic side imagined. Lower Polecat is missing snowmaking in a large segment. Upper Polecat and Upper Lynx are bare. Wild Kitten has a couple sporadic wales but is largely very thin with dirt coming through. Catapult is translucent ground ice that they are desperately trying to cover with snow using groomers.

The natural snow is sweet but very thin. The ungroomed terrain would not be open at any other mountain. Think Mittersill at the end of the first day of the season. I regret skiing it as it chewed up my base and edges.


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## yeggous (Dec 31, 2013)

Talked to them today. They tried starting up the snowmaking on Lower polecat. The tried 3 times today actually, and each time they had a blowout. I was told to expect it to get worse before it gets better.


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## billski (Dec 31, 2013)

yeggous said:


> Talked to them today. They tried starting up the snowmaking on Lower polecat. The tried 3 times today actually, and each time they had a blowout. I was told to expect it to get worse before it gets better.



I don't know anything about welding or running water through pipes in the winter, but I guess repairs in the winter are a no-go?
They've got to do something.  Now here's a dumb idea:  blow snow at the base and make the most awesome park and superpipe, and promote it as park rat nirvana.

Time for a AZ Challenge for Wildcat.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 31, 2013)

Killington's blowing Outer Limits, middle & lower Downdraft, middle Ovation & other assorted trails. They should be online before the weekend. Next up should be Devils Fiddle, lower Double Dipper & lower Ovation. Woot!

edit: middle Ovation is now open, they moved a few guns onto Ovation Headwall. Woot!

The Stash & Dreamaker are getting love too.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2013)

Your point?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington's blowing Outer Limits, middle & lower Downdraft, middle Ovation & other assorted trails. They should be online before the weekend. Next up should be Devils Fiddle, lower Double Dipper & lower Ovation. Woot!
> 
> edit: middle Ovation is now open, they moved a few guns onto Ovation Headwall. Woot!
> 
> The Stash & Dreamaker are getting love too.



Kudos to Killington for committing to making (more) snow.


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## Smellytele (Dec 31, 2013)

Pats peak was blowing on FIS and Twister all day today. They skied great.

I am bummed about Wildcat and was planning a trip up their for MLK Saturday but may change my mind...


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## Edd (Dec 31, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington's blowing Outer Limits, middle & lower Downdraft, middle Ovation & other assorted trails. They should be online before the weekend. Next up should be Devils Fiddle, lower Double Dipper & lower Ovation. Woot!
> 
> edit: middle Ovation is now open, they moved a few guns onto Ovation Headwall. Woot!
> 
> The Stash & Dreamaker are getting love too.



Killington and Wildcat. Apples and oranges.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

Edd said:


> Killington and Wildcat. Apples and oranges.



I'm not sure he was trying to make a comparison between the two.  I'm thinking it's more a condition.  Killington tourettes or something.  I can't think of a logical reason otherwise that he'd blurt out a Killington snowmaking report in a Wildcat thread.


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## dlague (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Your point?



Seriously this is a wildcat thread


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## steamboat1 (Jan 1, 2014)

Woot!


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## Edd (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure he was trying to make a comparison between the two.  I'm thinking it's more a condition.  Killington tourettes or something.  I can't think of a logical reason otherwise that he'd blurt out a Killington snowmaking report in a Wildcat thread.



Nothing to joke about. The victims wake up saying Killington! Killington! Killington! Killington!  Sounds horrible.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 1, 2014)

yeggous said:


> I can confirm that Bretton Woodshas not made snow all week. I was just there yesterday.





Smellytele said:


> Pats peak was blowing on FIS and Twister all day today. They skied great.


Woot!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Woot!



Congratulations on your new word for 2014


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## gregnye (Jan 1, 2014)

Did they ever make snow on Upper Wildcat this year yet?? Is that side of the mountain effected by the snowmaking problems? 

If I were Wildcat, I would now be trying to blow snow on every trail on the bottom half of the mountain (below the bobcat triple and ones like alleycat that go under that quad.)

I booked a hotel a long time ago for Martin Luther King Weekend--am I'm getting pretty worried now... even Attitash had more trails open a few years ago when I went...:-?


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## yeggous (Jan 1, 2014)

gregnye said:


> Did they ever make snow on Upper Wildcat this year yet?? Is that side of the mountain effected by the snowmaking problems?
> 
> If I were Wildcat, I would now be trying to blow snow on every trail on the bottom half of the mountain (below the bobcat triple and ones like alleycat that go under that quad.)
> 
> I booked a hotel a long time ago for Martin Luther King Weekend--am I'm getting pretty worried now... even Attitash had more trails open a few years ago when I went...:-?



Are you kidding? The entire mountain is having problems at this point. Upper Wildcat has not seen any snowmaking in years.

Attitash will always have more trails open because they make more snow.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

No snow made on Upper Wildcat.  I agree about Alley Cat and other trails like Panther and Bobcat where they could have been making snow while they've been having issues with the upper mountain.

A couple of weeks ago while I was at Attitash I chatted up a couple of retired long time Wildcat skiers who were at Attitash for the day.  They were lamenting about the snowmaking problems.  One of the guys said, "What Wildcat needs is for someone to buy the place and sink $20M into snowmaking with no plans for a return on investment.  $10M to upgrade the system and another $10M to put into a trust that generates $500K a year for the snowmaking budget, so they actually use the system."  :lol:

Anyone got the number of that Billionaire who just bought Taos? Maybe he has an interest in another old classic ski area in the Northeast. :lol:

Oh well.  It is what it is.  I guess I just need to learn to accept that Wildcat will probably always be about like MRG in terms of snowmaking and reliance on mother nature. That's just the way it is for areas that don't have the ability to generate revenue through real estate and other arenas.  I certainly wouldn't trade the way Wildcat is for mountainside real estate development and a Killington snowmaking system though.


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## yeggous (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> No snow made on Upper Wildcat.  I agree about Alley Cat and other trails like Panther and Bobcat where they could have been making snow while they've been having issues with the upper mountain.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago while I was at Attitash I chatted up a couple of retired long time Wildcat skiers who were at Attitash for the day.  They were lamenting about the snowmaking problems.  One of the guys said, "What Wildcat needs is for someone to buy the place and sink $20M into snowmaking with no plans for a return on investment.  $10M to upgrade the system and another $10M to put into a trust that generates $500K a year for the snowmaking budget, so they actually use the system."  :lol:
> 
> ...



I think the situation is worse that that. They are owned by a for profit company and must be losing money. Based in the non-existent crowds over Christmas this might be an existential crisis.


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## billski (Jan 1, 2014)

gregnye said:


> I booked a hotel a long time ago for Martin Luther King Weekend--am I'm getting pretty worried now... even Attitash had more trails open a few years ago when I went...:-?


You have two viable choices if you ask me, and you didn't.  Get a refund and go elsewhere, or, make hay with what you've got, there are a lot of areas not so far away to day trip.  Lots of No Conway clubbers to Bretton Woods.  Or look at smaller areas, Cranmore, Black, Shawnee.  Geez, I even know people who will do Sunday River as a day trip from the MWV area.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

+1

We used to do the MWV for MLK weekend a few years in a row when I was a kid.  We'd do a day each at Cranmore, Attitash and Sunday River.  It's funny, we never skied Wildcat or Black.  My family was new to the sport and we had this perception that Black was too small with little to offer and that Wildcat was an experts only mountain.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 1, 2014)

The few times I've stayed in Lancaster, NH which is further west we hit SR a couple of times. Not a bad drive, just head east on rt.2 I believe. Maybe an 1 1/2 hrs. drive as I recall. Most of the other areas mentioned were within 30-40 min. We stayed in the Cabott Inn which has a nice large indoor pool, hot tubs, bar, restaurant, gym & sauna on premises.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 2, 2014)

SR is less than an hour from N Conway.


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## Quietman (Jan 2, 2014)

Finally, someone from Wildcat is talking. *GM's Blog*.


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## Tin (Jan 2, 2014)

Quietman said:


> Finally, someone from Wildcat is talking. *GM's Blog*.



Basically, pray for snow because we're screwed.


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## yeggous (Jan 2, 2014)

Tin said:


> Basically, pray for snow because we're screwed.



That's how I read it. If you look at the "wins" in that post it basically says they have some new compressors that they cannot use because the other infrastructure is gone. The rest of the wins say that they're learning the hard way.

Only being able to make snow between 10 and 25 degrees is narrow window not often seen on the upper mountain in January. We are screwed.

Wildcat is always strong in the spring, but right now they do not have the snow blown to make it to April. Middle to Lower Lynx is the only trail with sufficient depth to use for spring skiing, but the bottom of that trails gets a nasty stream running across it in the spring.


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## drjeff (Jan 2, 2014)

Quietman said:


> Finally, someone from Wildcat is talking. *GM's Blog*.



Having known Brian since he started at Mount Snow and some of the experience he had with how the GM at Mount Snow, Kelly Pawlak, runs a mountain, and having seen how others from Mount Snow have done within Peak Resorts when they've been promoted to GM's at other Peak owned properties, this forth rightedness doesn't surprise me.  And my hunch is that going forward, he'll be quicker with the information.

Secondly, all the testing of various snowmaking equipment that Brian mentioned, is something that I heard about, from one of the mountain ops crew at Mount Snow this past week.  Peak sent of the guys from Mount Snow, who is not only a snowmaking addict, but also a big time stats guy to help oversee this multi week, multi brand test to see what works best at not just what air temps, but what water temps.  The one real intersting tidbit that I got from the mention of the test is one noteable manufacturers name that wasn't listed, SMI.  Considering that Peak resorts tend to be covered with SMI polecat fan guns of various sizes (supers, "regulars" and kids), it was interesting to not see them mentioned and see techno alpin, who makes not only some good air/water low-e guns but also some good fan guns too, along with HKD and snow logic.  The HKD Impluse towers seem to be gaining plenty of popularity with Peak Resorts non fan gun trails as Mount Snow just took delivery on an order of about 20 of them about a week ago and they've been in action on many air water trails the last week, with some big piles produced.

The one thing that you need to consider when talking about Peak Resorts and snowmaking, is the owner, Tim Boyd, LOVES to make snow! He actually doesn't ski or board, but still does from time to time put on his snow boots and gore tex suit and helmet and gets on the hill and drags hoses and guns around! And he's by no means a "spring chicken"


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## yeggous (Jan 2, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Having known Brian since he started at Mount Snow and some of the experience he had with how the GM at Mount Snow, Kelly Pawlak, runs a mountain, and having seen how others from Mount Snow have done within Peak Resorts when they've been promoted to GM's at other Peak owned properties, this forth rightedness doesn't surprise me.  And my hunch is that going forward, he'll be quicker with the information.
> 
> Secondly, all the testing of various snowmaking equipment that Brian mentioned, is something that I heard about, from one of the mountain ops crew at Mount Snow this past week.  Peak sent of the guys from Mount Snow, who is not only a snowmaking addict, but also a big time stats guy to help oversee this multi week, multi brand test to see what works best at not just what air temps, but what water temps.  The one real intersting tidbit that I got from the mention of the test is one noteable manufacturers name that wasn't listed, SMI.  Considering that Peak resorts tend to be covered with SMI polecat fan guns of various sizes (supers, "regulars" and kids), it was interesting to not see them mentioned and see techno alpin, who makes not only some good air/water low-e guns but also some good fan guns too, along with HKD and snow logic.  The HKD Impluse towers seem to be gaining plenty of popularity with Peak Resorts non fan gun trails as Mount Snow just took delivery on an order of about 20 of them about a week ago and they've been in action on many air water trails the last week, with some big piles produced.
> 
> The one thing that you need to consider when talking about Peak Resorts and snowmaking, is the owner, Tim Boyd, LOVES to make snow! He actually doesn't ski or board, but still does from time to time put on his snow boots and gore tex suit and helmet and gets on the hill and drags hoses and guns around! And he's by no means a "spring chicken"



Wildcat does not have enough electricity to run any fan guns. The transmission lines in Pinkham Notch can't handle the load. This is why they run all diesel conpressors.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2014)

Good.  Send Tim up to Wildcat and have him move some snow guns around to where they actually can make snow....Alleycat, Panther, Bobcat.


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## Tin (Jan 2, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Wildcat does not have enough electricity to run any fan guns. The transmission lines in Pinkham Notch can't handle the load. This is why they run all diesel conpressors.



Don't know if it is my luck or a reoccurring problem but my past two trips to Wildcat were not the best because they lost power. One time they did not get the Express going until the afternoon and the following time they lost it in the afternoon. Both times they gave out vouchers for another day but it spooked me from Wildcat.


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## JDMRoma (Jan 2, 2014)

I haven't been to Wildcat or Attitash in years, not easy to get to from my area…too much back roads.


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## St. Bear (Jan 2, 2014)

JDMRoma said:


> I haven't been to Wildcat or Attitash in years, not easy to get to from my area…too much back roads.



Route 3 > 93 > Route 3 > 302


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## JDMRoma (Jan 2, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> Route 3 > 93 > Route 3 > 302


Think that route puts me at 2:45 hours…..Cannon or Bretton is less driving but Ya I could do that.


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## St. Bear (Jan 2, 2014)

Technically, 93 to 125 and 16 is fewer miles, but you have to go through the lakes region and might get stuck behind a slow moving vehicle.

I don't know why, but I normally take 125 on the way there, and 302 on the way back.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> Technically, 93 to 125 and 16 is fewer miles, but you have to go through the lakes region and might get stuck behind a slow moving vehicle.
> 
> I don't know why, but I normally take 125 on the way there, and 302 on the way back.



Do you mean 25 (not 125) through Meredith?


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## St. Bear (Jan 2, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Do you mean 25 (not 125) through Meredith?



Yeah, don't know where I got the 1 from.


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## billski (Jan 2, 2014)

I was directed by Wildcat's marketing department to a  blog written by their GM written TODAY.
http://skiwildcat.com/whats-happening.html?id=5509
It goes a long way to explain the current condition of things and their limitations. The problems as explained therein seem more complex than we have described and their engineering support appears quite competent.  Given their track record at other resorts, I would expect no less.  I was quite surprised to learn the narrow range of temperatures which make upper mountain snowmaking viable.  Seems to me, they need to offer some sort of compensating event to stem the loss of customers.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2014)

billski said:


> I was directed by Wildcat's marketing department to a  blog written by their GM written TODAY.
> http://skiwildcat.com/whats-happening.html?id=5509
> It goes a long way to explain the current condition of things and their limitations. The problems as explained therein seem more complex than we have described and their engineering support appears quite competent.  Given their track record at other resorts, I would expect no less.  I was quite surprised to learn the narrow range of temperatures which make upper mountain snowmaking viable.  Seems to me, they need to offer some sort of compensating event to stem the loss of customers.



Yes that was posted already


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## billski (Jan 2, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Yes that was posted already


Thanks for the elucidation.  My apologies.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 2, 2014)

Interesting that the "wins" were rebuilding  9 of the 10 pumps but it was a failed pump created this problem and multiplied it when lower pressure froze the water line.It looks like these guys are headed in the right direction and ran into some tough luck.From what I read on that blog Wildcat will have a much stronger snowmaking system next season.


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## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2014)

Drink the corporate Kool-aid. I'll believe it when I see it. Yes I am a pessimist.


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## yeggous (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm guessing that they saw a huge drop in revenue this year and now realize that the situation is untenable. They either invest big bucks or throw in the towel. I doubt operations are profitable right now. The place was a ghost town even by Wildcat standards when I went there on New Years Eve.


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## Angus (Jan 2, 2014)

JDMRoma said:


> Think that route puts me at 2:45 hours…..Cannon or Bretton is less driving but Ya I could do that.




I find 3 to 115 to 2 to gorham and then down 16 is best. If I'm in Meredith, I take 25 up to conway. 

Looking ahead, lack of man-made probably will put a real dent in their april ski calendar, too bad.


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## Brad J (Jan 2, 2014)

First I thank the GM for finally coming clean, a month late but I will put that in the past, There is great skiing on the lower mountain , if they make a real effort, gondi line, alley cat, panther , even al's folly can be covered with snow guns, there effort will be the factor whether they can keep their up until now loyal customer bace. Many of the lower mountain can do fine with natural snow, catenary cougar to name a few. If they trow in the towel now and think they can recover the customer bace next year they are dreaming. don't tell me what you are going to do, show me what you have done. Get those 85 guns going on whatever you can and they will repair the damage done.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2014)

They very much need to make a great effort on the lower mountain for the remainder of the season AND put their money where their mouth is next summer if they want to retain the customers they have.  I'm thinking several trails need to be lined with Low-E tower guns; Polecat, Lynx (ttb), Catapult, Wildcat, Bobcat, Cheetah.


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## ss20 (Jan 2, 2014)

Here's my crazy idea: 

They said they'll get replacement parts in 6-8 weeks, correct?  Make a bunch of snow in March and be open till May and compete with Killington in the spring.  Show the customers (especially season pass holders) that they are number 1 on the priority list by giving them a long spring season as a way of saying "we're sorry" for having this whole snowmaking fiasco that ruined November and December.

I told you it was crazy.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 2, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Here's my crazy idea:
> 
> They said they'll get replacement parts in 6-8 weeks, correct?  Make a bunch of snow in March and be open till May and compete with Killington in the spring.  Show the customers (especially season pass holders) that they are number 1 on the priority list by giving them a long spring season as a way of saying "we're sorry" for having this whole snowmaking fiasco that ruined November and December.
> 
> I told you it was crazy.



Crazy but I like it. I wanted to ski Wildcat this season but I not spending money there with all the bad things I am hearing.


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## Brad J (Jan 2, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Here's my crazy idea:
> 
> They said they'll get replacement parts in 6-8 weeks, correct?  Make a bunch of snow in March and be open till May and compete with Killington in the spring.  Show the customers (especially season pass holders) that they are number 1 on the priority list by giving them a long spring season as a way of saying "we're sorry" for having this whole snowmaking fiasco that ruined November and December.
> 
> I told you it was crazy.



It is a great idea , it would make great business sense


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## snoseek (Jan 2, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Here's my crazy idea:
> 
> They said they'll get replacement parts in 6-8 weeks, correct?  Make a bunch of snow in March and be open till May and compete with Killington in the spring.  Show the customers (especially season pass holders) that they are number 1 on the priority list by giving them a long spring season as a way of saying "we're sorry" for having this whole snowmaking fiasco that ruined November and December.
> 
> I told you it was crazy.


Not a crazy idea at all. With a solid snowmaking effort Wildcat could easily hang late in the year. They've been somewhat competitive in the past. Remember the year they opened in October and closed in May? Whoever owned it that year ran it like a boss!


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## yeggous (Jan 2, 2014)

They said 16-18 weeks, not 6-8.


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## ss20 (Jan 2, 2014)

yeggous said:


> They said 16-18 weeks, not 6-8.



Well then, scratch my plan.  

Other ideas?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2014)

Blow a couple of trails deep off the Bobcat lift.  Better than nothing. They've been the last ski area to close in NH for the last seven years.  I'm sure they will do at least something to try and preserve that bit of marketing.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 4, 2014)

Time to order a pump from a different manufacturer if the lead time is 16-18 weeks... Yikes, that's bad!


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## steamboat1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Wildcat today:

"UPDATE 8:00 a.m. - Due to the icy conditions on the roads and parking  lot and poor quality of snow we've decided to close for the day. We have  up to a quarter inch of ice at the summit and have been fighting back  flooding in the lot and around the base all morning. We apologize for  any inconvenience this may cause you. Once we get through today the  temps will drop again and our groomers and snowmakers will be out ASAP  to fix everything up again."


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## yeggous (Jan 6, 2014)

They will lose all of the ungroomed terrain today. At least they'll start blowing on Bobcat. They need that trail very soon for racing. Wild Kitten which has seen snow making is really thin and grooming is bringing up gravel in spots. It'll need more help soon.


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 6, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Wildcat today:
> 
> "UPDATE 8:00 a.m. - Due to the icy conditions on the roads and parking  lot and poor quality of snow we've decided to close for the day. We have  up to a quarter inch of ice at the summit and have been fighting back  flooding in the lot and around the base all morning. We apologize for  any inconvenience this may cause you. Once we get through today the  temps will drop again and our groomers and snowmakers will be out ASAP  to fix everything up again."



They had a carefully worded Facebook post an hour before this that gave readers the impression that the mountain would be open ("playing in the rain isn't so bad if you have the outer-wear for it..."  blah, blah, blah...).  I can't imagine anyone was super pumped to get out there today, but hopefully no one got burned by this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brad J (Jan 6, 2014)

yeggous said:


> They will lose all of the ungroomed terrain today. At least they'll start blowing on Bobcat. They need that trail very soon for racing. Wild Kitten which has seen snow making is really thin and grooming is bringing up gravel in spots. It'll need more help soon.



Heard over the weekend that they broke two of the compressors that they purchased which is also adding to the lack of snowmaking, when it rains it pours


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## snoseek (Jan 6, 2014)

I wonder if the option for them to sell is even on the table? I mean finances gotta be lean if they're running things so tight. Maybe they should consider Mount Snow their one big mountain and stick to running smaller feeder Midwest type hills. Either way I hope things get fixed up like they should be at some point. Wildcat is worthy of the attention/repairs.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 7, 2014)

Brad J said:


> Heard over the weekend that they broke two of the compressors that they purchased which is also adding to the lack of snowmaking, when it rains it pours



With snow making it can sometimes be a ripple effect. If one thing goes other things tend to fail.


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## croninovative (Jan 7, 2014)

Not even mad, I've never really liked Wildcat.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 9, 2014)

Bring it back to a family run business.


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## Madroch (Jan 11, 2014)

Without the ability to make snow on upper linx- wonder if the 100k challenge is in jeapardy- that is on upper linx in March- and needs a SOLID base?


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## AdironRider (Jan 11, 2014)

You know, ski message boards (notably this one) always lament why feeder hills and the core places are dying and how its terrible for the sport, then come right back and bitch when they all aren't blasting snow like Killington, Someday Bigger, or Loon.


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## Tin (Jan 11, 2014)

I can really see Wildcat going the way of Magic or MRG within the next 10-15 years.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 11, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> You know, ski message boards (notably this one) always lament why feeder hills and the core places are dying and how its terrible for the sport, then come right back and bitch when they all aren't blasting snow like Killington, Someday Bigger, or Loon.


 
They do have to make snow. Not  like resorts in south Vermont. But will I travel 5 hours to ski a few trails no. So yes they need to understand that. I love to go their been their once as a child and loved the hill. If I see 75% open would I go this year yes.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> You know, ski message boards (notably this one) always lament why feeder hills and the core places are dying and how its terrible for the sport, then come right back and bitch when they all aren't blasting snow like Killington, Someday Bigger, or Loon.



My comments have been the opposite this season.  The feeder hill Crotched has been blasting snow like crazy.  The big hill, Wildcat not so much.  Granted they've got system problems.  Hopefully all the complaints spur significant investment next summer


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## billski (Jan 11, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> You know, ski message boards (notably this one) always lament why feeder hills and the core places are dying and how its terrible for the sport, then come right back and bitch when they all aren't blasting snow like Killington, Someday Bigger, or Loon.


  I always make it a point to ski and spend money at feeder hills every year.   Frankly, I don't care if they make snow or not, since I honestly don't mind skiing on a bit of dirt or puckerbush, or picking my way down a slope.  I do however want to see everyone succeed, small and large, so I'm discussing snow-making as a necessary evil, not complaining about it at all.  Regarding Whaleback, it was absolutely pouring when I went past there.  Has nothing to do with how many trails they have open.


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## Angus (Jan 11, 2014)

Madroch said:


> Without the ability to make snow on upper linx- wonder if the 100k challenge is in jeapardy- that is on upper linx in March- and needs a SOLID base?



email went out today from Wildcat to former participants, March 10.


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## yeggous (Jan 11, 2014)

Does that mean it is on? Skiing a bare trail will be a real challenge this year.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Does that mean it is on? Skiing a bare trail will be a real challenge this year.



Maybe make it a biathlon.  Run the top and ski the bottom.


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## Madroch (Jan 11, 2014)

Did it last year- fun- but can't imagine running it without a man made base- even in a good snow year like last year- there were bare spots due to heavy traffic on one line.....I'll sign on again...


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2014)

Madroch said:


> Did it last year- fun- but can't imagine running it without a man made base- even in a good snow year like last year- there were bare spots due to heavy traffic on one line.....I'll sign on again...



What does it work out too? 6 runs and hour?  I can't imagine cranking out 100K vert in a day.  Impressive.


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## snoseek (Jan 12, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> What does it work out too? 6 runs and hour?  I can't imagine cranking out 100K vert in a day.  Impressive.


No shit right? If I look on my epicmix and it says 30k I consider that a really long full day of skiing. 100k would require some serious strength and endurance!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2014)

I don't think I've ever skied more than 20 runs in a day off the HSQ at Wildcat.  My average full day there is probably more like 15 rides on the Quad.  48 trips up that lift in a day is nuts.


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## Madroch (Jan 13, 2014)

48 runs- 11 min per run- start at 7:30 and go till dark if needed.  They crank up the quad and it hums.


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## Madroch (Jan 13, 2014)

And yes embrace the burn... Kinda scary at times for us flat landers - holding on for dear life toward the end of each run- as the best training for skiing is skiing- and tough to lodge any serious vertical on a regular basis down here.


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## Madroch (Jan 13, 2014)

Just registered for this year-  fun day- kind of a comraderie builds... Met a lot of good folks on the 48 rides up.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 13, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think I've ever skied more than 20 runs in a day off the HSQ at Wildcat.  My average full day there is probably more like 15 rides on the Quad.  48 trips up that lift in a day is nuts.



Yea you don't realize how much vert you have done because you can ski it so quickly. Even at 10 runs I am feeling it. I can manage 25 or so if I'm sticking to mostly groomers, not skiing a ton of moguls or poling around much. The last 2 are very hard to avoid at Wildcat!


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## skifree (Jan 13, 2014)

Madroch said:


> 48 runs- 11 min per run- start at 7:30 and go till dark if needed.  They crank up the quad and it hums.



that lift hums on a regular day..I could just imagine cranking it up


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## billski (Jan 13, 2014)

Doesn't sound like much fun to me!


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## AdironRider (Jan 13, 2014)

billski said:


> Doesn't sound like much fun to me!



Its pretty fun as you are raising money for a good cause. 

I've done it twice in Jackson, once on AV, once on the tram. Both times I wished I was at the Cat.


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## sedftroyl (Jan 15, 2014)

I can say first hand killington not making anything but mud pies guess the rise in season ticket sales 
 4 this year theymade their $ and blowing snow due to erratic temps.would put them in the negative  they don't care a/b nothing but the bucks. I don't believe I am being ignorant 

Sent from my VS870 4G using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tin (Jan 15, 2014)

Que? They went wild blowing to start this year, had the upper part of Superstar going by Turkey Day, and will always make a run into May. K was blowing in late January into February on OL and Superstar last year.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 15, 2014)

sedftroyl said:


> I can say first hand killington not making anything but mud pies guess the rise in season ticket sales
> 4 this year theymade their $ and blowing snow due to erratic temps.would put them in the negative  they don't care a/b nothing but the bucks. I don't believe I am being ignorant
> 
> Sent from my VS870 4G using AlpineZone mobile app



That's what everyone said 2 years ago but some mountains like Killington and SR blew a ton of snow in mid March even after many mountains had already closed for the season.


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## snoseek (Jan 15, 2014)

sedftroyl said:


> I can say first hand killington not making anything but mud pies guess the rise in season ticket sales
> 4 this year theymade their $ and blowing snow due to erratic temps.would put them in the negative  they don't care a/b nothing but the bucks. I don't believe I am being ignorant
> 
> Sent from my VS870 4G using AlpineZone mobile app


Scotty?


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## Tin (Jan 15, 2014)

^ LOL. My first thought.


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## yeggous (Jan 15, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's what everyone said 2 years ago but some mountains like Killington and SR blew a ton of snow in mid March even after many mountains had already closed for the season.



That was a unique situation. Wildcat blew snow in March that year too! Lots of British kids come over in late March or early April for some reason. They all blew snow to capture the business that many other mountains lost that year due to the warm weather. Wildcat was the only area open in all of NH. Killington picked up business from the rest of S VT.


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## gregnye (Jan 17, 2014)

Yeah I doubt Wildcat's going to make any money this weekend. The trail count is still not looking good (I'm heading up tomorrow but probably will just do Attitash)...


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## Smellytele (Jan 17, 2014)

gregnye said:


> Yeah I doubt Wildcat's going to make any money this weekend. The trail count is still not looking good (I'm heading up tomorrow but probably will just do Attitash)...



It's a sad day when someone would rather ski Attitrash than Wildcat.


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## dlague (Jan 18, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> It's a sad day when someone would rather ski Attitrash than Wildcat.



Very true!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, if someone prefers skiing steeper terrain, Attitash has Wildcat beat by a long shot.


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## Savemeasammy (Jan 19, 2014)

I've never actually given much thought to skiing Attitash...  Maybe I should?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pepper (Jan 19, 2014)

It's a real shame as it could be great.


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## Edd (Jan 19, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I've never actually given much thought to skiing Attitash...  Maybe I should?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I consider Attitash to be a pretty good weekday hill when they have a good chunk of terrain open. I like it better than I used to. 

And like DHS said, if you want steeps, it beats Wildcat.


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## Wally Brown (Jan 19, 2014)

Has anyone skied Attitash since last Weekends rain/freeze? I'm wondering how it held up. I'm debating Attitash or Loon for Tomorrow.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 19, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I've never actually given much thought to skiing Attitash...  Maybe I should?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If steep groomed runs are for you then by all means. Obnoxiously slow lifts for the same boring run each time. I would much rather be at Wildcat but not much of a choice right now.


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## gregnye (Jan 19, 2014)

Wally Brown said:


> Has anyone skied Attitash since last Weekends rain/freeze? I'm wondering how it held up. I'm debating Attitash or Loon for Tomorrow.



Today I skied loon, and yesterday I skied attitash. Right now, loon is skiing better because they have the guns going to resurface terrain. Attitash has a decent amount of stuff open (more blacks than wildcat) but things are a little more icy


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2014)

The argument is that there isn't enough trails / downhill capacity at the Summit of Attitash proper to handle the amount of skiers a High Speed lift would put at the top of the mountain.  They have said in the past during AZ Challenges that they have the permitting to add more trails from the summit.  So, in my mind, I think Peaks believes that they would not get the ROI by adding such an expensive lift because it wouldn't increase business that much at the mountain.


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## dlague (Jan 20, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> Personally, I just don't like how Attitash is laid out. Back in the day when ASC owned Attitash and about a half dozen others, Attitash was the closest and my least favorite. I was stuck going weekends and always a zoo. But I do like the trail layout weekdays. What is up with their HSD only going 2/3 the way and a nice slow triple going all the way up anyways. Normally, I spend my time at Bear peak. I like th layout there better, less crowding and a HSD that goes to the top.



+1  Skied there for the first time last year and my first impression was everything you described related to the layout!


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## yeggous (Jan 21, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> I think DHS has it penned as far as Attitash goes. ROI is hard to consider when every weekend it is packed. How do you, as a businessman, improve on that?



+1

The detachable quad services their more profitable summer operations too. There is just no ROI in a new summit lift. For the time being the ownership is happy with the status quo. The place is always packed so they are making plenty of money without investing in new snowmaking, lifts, or trails. They'll probably spend any money on summer attractions (more revenue) or additional hotel space... though the hotel market is pretty competitive in the MWV.

Wildcat, on the other hand, must be taking a beating this year with decreased ticket revenue. Snowmaking improvements there must be a matter of survival at this point.


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## midd (Jan 21, 2014)

Plus Attitash has received approval for the longest zip line in the continental US. Will go from top of Bear Peak to Attitash.  They are killing it with the summer attractions.


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## yeggous (Jan 21, 2014)

midd said:


> Plus Attitash has received approval for the longest zip line in the continental US. Will go from top of Bear Peak to Attitash.  They are killing it with the summer attractions.



This is very much their business model. They seem to a ski area that exists primarily to support increased summer activities. The summer activities have lower overhead since they don't require expensive snowmaking, and are therefor more profitable. It also helps that peak season in the Mt Washington Valley is actually summer. Visits are down considerably in the winter.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 22, 2014)

Here is some snowmaking beta on their snow report today.

As you may know, when we face very cold temps we have to shut down the upper mountain snowmaking so we don't create issues with the pipes. Luckily, before this stretch of cold hit we were able to crank it out on Upper Polecat, Upper Catapult and create a cutover to Upper Lynx through the lift line. This has made a world of difference for our upper mountain terrain and opened up a path to Lynx and Middle/Lower Polecat from the summit.


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## gregnye (Jan 22, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Here is some snowmaking beta on their snow report today.
> 
> As you may know, when we face very cold temps we have to shut down the upper mountain snowmaking so we don't create issues with the pipes. Luckily, before this stretch of cold hit we were able to crank it out on Upper Polecat, Upper Catapult and create a cutover to Upper Lynx through the lift line. This has made a world of difference for our upper mountain terrain and opened up a path to Lynx and Middle/Lower Polecat from the summit.



This is great news, but still i think they should now be focusing on trails below Cat-track like Alleycat, Panther, maybe even Tomcat Shuss (an easy choice because they already have opened lower polecat).


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 22, 2014)

At least Peaks has been blowing a ton of snow on Attitash. I don't think it matters to the Wildcat faithful though.


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## Madroch (Jan 23, 2014)

Wonder if they will use upper catapult and crossover to middle linx for the 100k?   Unless they get a ton of snow for upper linx of course...


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## bobbutts (Jan 23, 2014)

Does anyone have numbers to backup the summer being profitable at Attitash.  Was there on a peak weekend last summer to try the alpine coaster, and it was busy with lines at the attractions, but in my estimation, less than 1/10 the amt of people for a normal weekend ski day.


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## drjeff (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Does anyone have numbers to backup the summer being profitable at Attitash.  Was there on a peak weekend last summer to try the alpine coaster, and it was busy with lines at the attractions, but in my estimation, less than 1/10 the amt of people for a normal weekend ski day.



No snowmaking or grooming, only a lift or 2 running instead of every lift running, far less employees for daily summer vs. daily winter operations, etc.  The overall daily overhead in the summer is far less than in the winter so "profitable" summer crowd volume is often equivalent to what would be a SMALL winter's day volume would be

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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2014)

....but they're not buying lift tickets, lessons, renting gear, and F&B volume is way down.  

Maybe with funny accounting they turn a profit in the summer but I doubt its much.  When I worked at Snowshoe it was jammed on the mountain during the summers.  HUGE events drawing 5 to 15k people every weekend.  They also had a golf course, something Attitash does not.  The place barely made a profit during July and August.  Summer operations were largely viewed as a necessity to keep key people employed; not a boost to the bottom line.


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## skiberg (Jan 24, 2014)

I wouldn't doubt them making some cash in summer. The place is crowded with people using the facilities pretty much most of July and August. Long lines are fairly common. I so even tAke my kids unless it first thing in the am or late in the day.


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## yeggous (Jan 28, 2014)

There snow report claims that they are blowing on Tomcat Schuss right now. This could be a positive development as I don't remember the last time I saw snowmaking there.

They've made a lot of progress expanding terrain across the lower mountain over the last couple of weeks. Maybe they really have decided to blow the whole lower mountain in attempt to compensate for the inability to make snow on the upper mountain.


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## Dubld (Jan 28, 2014)

My old home, Wildcat.  I just Thompson Brook will be skiable in March


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## gregnye (Jan 28, 2014)

yeggous said:


> There snow report claims that they are blowing on Tomcat Schuss right now. This could be a positive development as I don't remember the last time I saw snowmaking there.



I was last there 2 years ago (and every year before then) and I always remember them making snow on Tomcat Schuss. Its good to see them try to offer more expert terrain, as Attitash still is a better ski right now for the expert skier--and that's saying something...


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 28, 2014)

Dubld said:


> My old home, Wildcat.  I just Thompson Brook will be skiable in March



That would suck if that happened


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## yeggous (Jan 28, 2014)

gregnye said:


> I was last there 2 years ago (and every year before then) and I always remember them making snow on Tomcat Schuss. Its good to see them try to offer more expert terrain, as Attitash still is a better ski right now for the expert skier--and that's saying something...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I think that was pre Peak Resorts.


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## Madroch (Mar 7, 2014)

As suspected - moved the 100k off upper linx to upper catapult- than cross over to mid/lower linx.  That will probably result in closing a few more trails for the event- may not sit well with all. Looks warmer though- looking forward to it.


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## yeggous (Mar 7, 2014)

They are raising season pass prices too. No word on how much. Will be announced tomorrow morning but they swear it won't be enough that I will care.


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## yeggous (Mar 7, 2014)

To their credit Wildcat is blowing snow on Polecat today. They're trying to fill in places to make it into April.


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## Brad J (Mar 7, 2014)

I wish I was more reasonable but I am not, Peak resort  has done a terrible job this year at both Wildcat and Attitash, Their commitment to make snow was marginal at best and telling us about frozen pipes and blown pumps, electric costs long after they were happening, I for one will stand on principle and not buy a season pass, even though I am sure will cost me more in the long run. They do not deserve our trust, they need to decide if the really want to run a ski area, or cater to the summer family crowd. Not that a bad thing just not what I am looking for. The plans of a Zip line at Attitash has sent me over the edge, rumored to fund the instillation of a new lift to the Summit in 10 years, I will be 70 freaking years old then, are you kidding me. I am a long time Attitash skier skied there  in the sixties and seventies ,went to killington in the eighties until they lost their soul. Skied Mad River for a while , then sunday river. I have made a bunch of friends at both Attitash and Wildcat in the last 9 years and will miss them far more than the areas, I just need a year to find a new home!!! may be Cannon its just down the road from my daughters


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2014)

Wildcat is claiming 100% open!  Going there next weekend for RSNE on Saturday!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2014)

Brad J said:


> The plans of a Zip line at Attitash has sent me over the edge, rumored to fund the instillation of a new lift to the Summit in 10 years,



I'm not doubting this as a possibility, but that does seem to be a bit of a far fetched rumor no?  Surely Peaks could get a loan for a new Summit lift at Attitash tomorrow if they wanted to based on prior investments elsewhere.  I thought the big issue with not wanting to put a lift in was lack of trail capacity off the summit. There is something to be said for the lack of trails off the summit and how quickly they'd get skied off. 

I think it's more the realization that they wouldn't enjoy an appreciably increase in business with that lift, which is probably true.  Unfortunate because a HSQ to the summit of Attitash proper would be fantastic.


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## yeggous (Mar 8, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I think it's more the realization that they wouldn't enjoy an appreciably increase in business with that lift, which is probably true.  Unfortunate because a HSQ to the summit of Attitash proper would be fantastic.



This


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## D-2.5-GT (Mar 8, 2014)

Skied there earlier this week...

The views were as usual, fantastic. I managed to get a clear morning and everywhere you turn Mt. Washington towers over.  

I was kind of disappointed / surprised at the conditions. There was lots of bare spots all over, including rocks and such.. I haven't been there in years, but dont recall this. They intentionally leave about half the mountain ungroomed, which is normally nice but anything not touched was frozen solid. 

Im surprised to hear they are making snow, but they need it in some spots. Even on a tuesday with no volume, there was a lot of spots that got skied off to sheets of ice.


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## Edd (Mar 8, 2014)

That's funny. I was there last Tuesday and felt what was open and groomed was in pretty damn good shape. 

Upper Lynx, while open, is a train wreak due to no snowmaking. I was under the impression that snow couldn't be made on upper Polecat but it was fine. 

Ungroomed stuff like Catanary and Cougar were pretty firm, but skiable. 


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## yeggous (Mar 8, 2014)

They can make snow on a very limited basis on Upper Polecat when temperatures are just right. That is where they were blowing yesterday.

Word at my club is Thursday was awesome, Friday sucked.


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## Brad J (Mar 9, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not doubting this as a possibility, but that does seem to be a bit of a far fetched rumor no?  Surely Peaks could get a loan for a new Summit lift at Attitash tomorrow if they wanted to based on prior investments elsewhere.  I thought the big issue with not wanting to put a lift in was lack of trail capacity off the summit. There is something to be said for the lack of trails off the summit and how quickly they'd get skied off.
> 
> I think it's more the realization that they wouldn't enjoy an appreciably increase in business with that lift, which is probably true.  Unfortunate because a HSQ to the summit of Attitash proper would be fantastic.



THey could put a HSQ in with fewer chairs to keep uphill capacity the same and get the ride down to a reasonable time


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## 4aprice (Mar 10, 2014)

Brad J said:


> THey could put a HSQ in with fewer chairs to keep uphill capacity the same and get the ride down to a reasonable time



So I take it, it is not a wind issue with the Summit Lifts on Attitash.  Skied it for the 1st time this past weekend.  If not wind then they definitely need a high speed to the summit as that triple is one long ass chair.  Interesting place, thought conditions were pretty good especially in the morning and the runs on Attitash proper reminded me a little of Solitude in Utah.  Saturday it warmed up just high and long enough to make the woods fun over on Bear Peak, off of Trillium, and Wandering.  Sunday temp drop didn't help and it all got skied off by the end of the day.  Liked the place but didn't fall in love with it.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## dlague (Mar 10, 2014)

yeggous said:


> They can make snow on a very limited basis on Upper Polecat when temperatures are just right. That is where they were blowing yesterday.
> 
> Word at my club is Thursday was awesome, Friday sucked.



This will be the third year in a row where I go there on this very weekend and it seems to always have thin spots and woods that are very hard.  With the snow on the way - this weekend might shape up the trails just in time for me to get there!  They were reporting 100% open so fingers are crossed for a good time!


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## yeggous (Mar 10, 2014)

I was there Saturday. Snow was great. Cover was decent. Stayed firm but not hard all day.

On the down side I badly damaged my E88s hitting a hidden rock on Cougar -- bad enough that I bought new skis on Sunday.


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## yeggous (Mar 31, 2014)

Light your torches and grab your pitchforks!

Passholders received this email yesterday:



> To our Wildcat Mountain and Attitash Mountain Resort Season Passholders,
> 
> Although the season is winding down at Attitash Mountain Resort and will end Sunday, April 6, Wildcat Mountain remains open and a closing date has not been set. We still have significant base snow that will last well in to April and most of our trails and terrain remains open. One of the many benefits of your season pass is that Wildcat Mountain has been the last ski area open in New Hampshire offering lift-serviced skiing and riding for many, many years and I want Wildcat Mountain to stay open as long as possible to offer endless spring skiing. Did I hear Wildcat may be open for skiing and riding in May? We'll see!
> 
> ...


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## Edd (Mar 31, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Light your torches and grab your pitchforks!
> 
> Passholders received this email yesterday:



You lost me. What's the issue here? Granted, I'm on beer 5 today. 


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## yeggous (Mar 31, 2014)

Edd said:


> You lost me. What's the issue here? Granted, I'm on beer 5 today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Allow me to pin-point:


> One thing that we have just added for the weekend, that I would like to personally invite you to, is a season passholder meet and greet. This will be on Sunday morning, April 6 from 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. in the Wildcat Pub and it will be a "town hall" style event, where you and other pass holders will have an opportunity to address John Lowell (President of Wildcat and Attitash) and me with questions about Wildcat and Attitash. I hope you will join us and please enjoy a complimentary Mimosa, coffee or other non-alcoholic beverage when you arrive.



Sunday will be open season. There are plenty of unhappy pass holders that are going to line up to take their shots. You've inspired me to start beer #1.


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## Edd (Mar 31, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Allow me to pin-point:
> 
> 
> Sunday will be open season. There are plenty of unhappy pass holders that are going to line up to take their shots. You've inspired me to start beer #1.



Ah, got it. I've been a passholder in the past but not this year. I'm not sure how pissed I'd be knowing the goofy crap they've dealt with.  That's just me, though. I'd give it one more year before getting too pissed. 


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## ss20 (Mar 31, 2014)

Can someone film this passholder's meeting?  

Hey, maybe Wildcat can get some $$$ and a few management changes.  That's all it takes.  Case in point- Killington.


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## yeggous (Mar 31, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Can someone film this passholder's meeting?
> 
> Hey, maybe Wildcat can get some $$$ and a few management changes.  That's all it takes.  Case in point- Killington.



Wildcat exists in an entirely different financial world. They rely solely on skiing operations and basic food sales to generate revenue. There is no on-mountain lodging or fine dining of any sorts. When conditions suck then nobody shows up and it hurts their bottom line. Like most of New Hampshire they lack the hotel and condos that force people to pre-commit to showing up.


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## ss20 (Mar 31, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Wildcat exists in an entirely different financial world. They rely solely on skiing operations and basic food sales to generate revenue. There is no on-mountain lodging or fine dining of any sorts. When conditions suck then nobody shows up and it hurts their bottom line. Like most of New Hampshire they lack the hotel and condos that force people to pre-commit to showing up.



Do they share Attitash's profits?  I'm not exactly sure how connected the two mountains are.


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## yeggous (Mar 31, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Do they share Attitash's profits?  I'm not exactly sure how connected the two mountains are.



Great question for the passholder meeting. The short answer to your question is that they are very connected and seemingly operated as one entity. All lift tickets and passes are interchangeable. The prices are largely identical. In theory each mountain has dedicated staff, but you'll often see sharing staff for areas like ski school, lift maintenance, and snow making. The use Wildcat's operating season as an excuse to open Attitash late and close early.

Outside of prices and passes the two mountains are very different given their different history. Wildcat was family owned and neglected for many years. Attitash was an ASC mountain. Since being purchased by Peak Resorts neither has seen any notable capital improvements. No new lifts. No notable snow making expansion. No change in operating season at Wildcat, though Attitash now opens notably later.

Attitash is crowded with a SLOW summit lift. Wildcat is often empty with a very fast lift -- the backup lift (Tomcat Triple) at Wildcat is taller and faster than the summit triple at Attitash.

Wildcat has awful snow making by modern standards. Despite starting to blow in early November it took until President Day weekend to open a second (and still only) route off the summit. Attitash waits until December to start making snow, but eventually does a respectable job of covering the entire mountain.

Wildcat's lodge is a very spartan single building. Attitash has 3 distinct lodges plus the hotel which are in decent shape.

Wildcat is high elevation for New England with 2,100' vertical and a summit above 4,000'. The base at Wildcat is roughly the same elevation as the summit at Attitash (which is a curse in January).

Attitash has only advanced terrain off the summit which quickly gets skied off. Wildcat has a long beginner trail from the top -- once they finally get it open. Despite the better beginner terrain being at Wildcat, beginner skiers flock to Attitash due to its closer proximity to North Conway. This is a mistake. Attitash has steeper terrain and little space for novices to explore.


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## Newpylong (Apr 1, 2014)

To be fair, Peak put Polecats on all major trails at Attitash the year they were bought. Haven't done anything since though.


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## bobbutts (Apr 1, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> To be fair, Peak put Polecats on all major trails at Attitash the year they were bought. Haven't done anything since though.


Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.  I drove by on the way back from Wildcat a couple weeks ago and there is a large amt of snowmaking infrastructure (polecats) visible from the road there.


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## yeggous (Apr 6, 2014)

Some highlights from the passholder town hall today:

Attitash
* they will be buying 100 new snow guns over the summer to be placed in "strategic locations" like Tight Rope
* Zipline construction starts in 1-2 weeks
* The Summit Triple will not be replaced any time soon. This has nothing to do with permitting or volume. It is strictly a return on investment question. A new lift would be $7-8M with a $700-800k annual debt service. Peak Resorts does not believe "if you build it they will come" as the Bluebird Lift at Mt Snow was a total bust in that regard.
* the last few years their snowmaking plan was to wait for cold weather to blow. They regret this decision this year due to the spike in electricity prices when the cold hit costing them $$$. They're lobbying Peak Resorts to let them start blowing early to stockpile snow and then push it out for a December opening.

Wildcat:
* When the Lynx pipe froze in November it was the build up of pressure that blew out the casing on the pump. The pump that broke was one of two that was rebuilt that summer.
* Snowmaking upgrades are planned for this year, mostly pipe replacement and gun purchases plus fixing the Lynx pumps. The purchases are currently being held up by lender approval.
* They'll be buying HKD and Snow Logic guns.
* The temperature of the water at Wildcat is a real problem. It comes out at 28 degrees which is as cold as you can physically get. Two of the four companies that were in their trial this year withdrew because they could not handle the supercooled water. HKD had to redesign their guns.
* Most of the pipe on the mountain is 30-35 years old and has a life expectancy of 20 years. They've been blowing pipes all over the place.
* The plan for next year is to try to be (one of?) the first mountain in New England open top-to-bottom. They specifically said that they want to leverage their express quad and beat Killington top-to-bottom. They'll start with Lynx and then move to Polecat. They talked big talk but we'll see if they can follow through. They claim to want to open as early as possible and close as late as possible.


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## xlr8r (Apr 6, 2014)

Disappointing that they won't upgrade the summit lift at Attitash.  Its the one thing everyone seems to complain about, and they refuse to do anything about it.  It seems as though Peaks doesn't like building new lifts.  Did the Crotched Rocket see a return on investment, I know it was used. I think the Crotched Rocket would be a better comparison than the Bluebird, as Mount Snow already had a summit high speed lift, it was just overcrowded.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2014)

Did anyone ask why Wildcat has such cold water?

I've never heard of other mountains making similar claims. 

Is what it is I guess, but it just seems weird.  

Bummed to hear about the Triple at Attitash.  If that's their take on it, I wonder if they've looked at adding a conveyor and increasing the line speed of the lift.  I don't believe they are that expensive and even a modest reduction in ride time would be nice.


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## yeggous (Apr 6, 2014)

They claim the water is so cold because it is all melt water from Thompson Brook or Mount Washington. Water can supercool so long as it stays moving. Because they don't have a large body of water to pull from this is an issue. They also confessed that building a larger pond is not on the table so water issues will be evident once they get their snowmaking working.

They mentioned that another resort in NH (unnamed, but the Attitash president's brother works there) was the same problem with the river water that they pull in so they have to mix it with pond water to warm it up.


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## yeggous (Apr 6, 2014)

As for speeding up the Attitash lift, it's even worse than you think. They rarely run the lift at full speed. Most days they turn *down* the speed to prevent misloading incidents with the novices.


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## ss20 (Apr 6, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Some highlights from the passholder town hall today:
> 
> Attitash
> * The Summit Triple will not be replaced any time soon. This has nothing to do with permitting or volume. It is strictly a return on investment question. A new lift would be $7-8M with a $700-800k annual debt service. Peak Resorts does not believe "if you build it they will come" as the Bluebird Lift at Mt Snow was a total bust in that regard.
> ...



Some of this seems pretty fishy to me.

Not replacing the Triple because of the Bluebird being a bust?  That's total BS and Peaks knows it.  Ever since the Bluebird crowds have been bigger than ever.  I almost regret them installing it.  

So Attitash has to beg corporate to open earlier, yet Wildcat claims they're ready to be the first to be open top to bottom (which also sounds like BS.  Maybe a plea to keep the passholders?).  Snowmaking upgrades (essentially patchwork on the current failing system) being held up by "lender approval"?  This isn't an optional fix.  It HAS to be done.  Waiting for "lender approval" is not an option.  

Peaks has been slipping in recent years.  Their NH holding have always gotten the short end of the stick with improvements, but now the mountains are literally falling apart.  It'll be interesting how Mount Snow's EB-5 funding plan for their master plan are gonna turn out, considering how bad it's been working for Jay.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm not a Mountain Snow skier, so I have no idea if the Bluebird is a bust or not.  From the sounds of it, it was not.

Unfortunately, Peaks is probably right that replacing the Summit Triple at Attitash won't bring much of a ROI if any.  It's a location issue with Attitash.  They simply don't have as much of a pool of skiers to draw from to grow their business as Snow does.  I bet some of Snows competitors like Stratton and Okemo do close to as many skier visits if not more than all the MWV areas combined.  I bet Attitash has lost some of it's market share over the past couple of decades to BW and other areas outside of the MWV, but I doubt installing a HSQ will bring enough of that business back to cover the costs.

I guess the best one can hope for with that lift is either 

A. Attitash gets sold to another operator with some cash to burn

or

B. The lift eventually breaks down and needs replacing, which probably won't happen for a couple of decades.

Sad, but true.  Outside of Saddleback, I can't think of any other large Northeastern ski resort besides Attitash that doesn't have a HSQ or better in place as their primary lift.


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## EPB (Apr 7, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not a Mountain Snow skier, so I have no idea if the Bluebird is a bust or not.  From the sounds of it, it was not.
> 
> Unfortunately, Peaks is probably right that replacing the Summit Triple at Attitash won't bring much of a ROI if any.  It's a location issue with Attitash.  They simply don't have as much of a pool of skiers to draw from to grow their business as Snow does.  I bet some of Snows competitors like Stratton and Okemo do close to as many skier visits if not more than all the MWV areas combined.  I bet Attitash has lost some of it's market share over the past couple of decades to BW and other areas outside of the MWV, but I doubt installing a HSQ will bring enough of that business back to cover the costs.
> 
> ...



Smuggs doesn't either. I've never been to Mt. Snow, but it doesn't even seem like the gravity of the Bluebird lift would compare to a high speed quad at Attitash because they already had a HSQ with ~3000pph capacity there in the first place. A high speed quad to the summit of Attiash would be a game changer for sure.


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 7, 2014)

I would love to see Wildcat as an early season player.   The elevation is great, and top-to-bottom early skiing would be great.  


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm quite surprised to see that Attitash has no plans for an HSQ to the summit in the near future.  I have always felt that this is a real Achilles heel for that resort.  

Here are some possibilities on why:
1) I haven't skied Attitash for many years, but I seem to recall some people suggesting that the trail network at the summit just can't handle the extra capacity. 
2) Are we seeing a symptom of Peak Resorts dominating the North Conway market?  North Conway has TONS of beds, and lots of second home owners.  Perhaps they just don't need to put in the quad because they remain competitive without it.  Cranmore and Black are smaller mountains.  Bretton Woods is far enough away that it will put off a lot skiers.  The same can be said of the I-93 resorts.
3) Construction would disrupt summer revenue operations - an area where Cranmore is proving to be quite competitive.

As far as Wildcat is concerned, waiting for a loan to repair and/or improve the snowmaking system is just not an option.  Peak needs to divert resources for that project.  It's just that simple.


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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2014)

eastern powder baby said:


> Smuggs doesn't either. I've never been to Mt. Snow, but it doesn't even seem like the gravity of the Bluebird lift would compare to a high speed quad at Attitash because they already had a HSQ with ~3000pph capacity there in the first place. A high speed quad to the summit of Attiash would be a game changer for sure.



Best case with the Grand Summit at Mount Snow capacity wise is 2400/hr (that's if it goes up every chair full without stopping the whole hour - the Bluebird is currently configured to have a max capacity of 2400/hr also - that is only 600 more folks an hour than the old triple. If they ever chose to max out the capacity of the Bluebird by a adding more chairs to the haul rope it could do not 3600/hr. IMHO there's already enough summit capacity at Mount Snow now as is.

No idea why Peak would consider the BB a failure. As someone who has skied Mount Snow probably 90% of the weekends since the Bluebird first opened, it sure has seemed busier than the pre bluebird era


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## sull1102 (Apr 7, 2014)

Was at Wildcat and Attitash yesterday and I gotta say Attitash was much more fun. Lapped that triple a good amount and I can see where the anti high speed quad comes from with overloading trails. It would probably make a huge difference to have a mid mountain lift to the summit so you could hit the rather useless Flying Yankee and then go over to a double to the top.


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## yeggous (Apr 7, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Best case with the Grand Summit at Mount Snow capacity wise is 2400/hr (that's if it goes up every chair full without stopping the whole hour - the Bluebird is currently configured to have a max capacity of 2400/hr also - that is only 600 more folks an hour than the old triple. If they ever chose to max out the capacity of the Bluebird by a adding more chairs to the haul rope it could do not 3600/hr. IMHO there's already enough summit capacity at Mount Snow now as is.
> 
> No idea why Peak would consider the BB a failure. As someone who has skied Mount Snow probably 90% of the weekends since the Bluebird first opened, it sure has seemed busier than the pre bluebird era



They consider it a failure because it needs to generate enough extra net revenue to cover the debt service and cost of operation. They said that numbers were barely up and certainly not enough to cover the cost of construction.

They said the same is expected with a new Attitash lift. They doubt it would result in an extra $1M a year in ticket sales that would be needed to pay for it.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2014)

yeggous said:


> They consider it a failure because it needs to generate enough extra net revenue to cover the debt service and cost of operation. They said that numbers were barely up and certainly not enough to cover the cost of construction.
> 
> They said the same is expected with a new Attitash lift. They doubt it would result in an extra $1M a year in ticket sales that would be needed to pay for it.
> 
> ...



At some point the lift will work in the other way with less and less visits (aka revenue)


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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2014)

yeggous said:


> They consider it a failure because it needs to generate enough extra net revenue to cover the debt service and cost of operation. They said that numbers were barely up and certainly not enough to cover the cost of construction.
> 
> They said the same is expected with a new Attitash lift. They doubt it would result in an extra $1M a year in ticket sales that would be needed to pay for it.
> 
> ...



Which kind of brings me to the biggest beef I have with Peak right now. They're going "all in" with the 18-26 age demographic with cheap pass prices, but the reality is that many of them don't spend very much $$ once at the mountain, thus lowering the daily yield.

 Especially with their VT pass products, their KIDS pass prices are in general noticeably above their competitors pass prices, thus driving some of the higher yield family market away :Mad:


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## xwhaler (Apr 7, 2014)

I guess its the long term view though that in order for the business to be healthy/sustainable for the long haul they need to tap into the younger demographic.
They are hoping those kids get jobs, stay loyal to Mt Snow and then bring their families there. It may produce lower revenue/person now but could be good in the long run.
I am surprised kids wouldn't spend much $ at the mtn though---always thought that crowd would be big drivers of the F+B profit center if they were skiing so cheaply.

On your side though I can totally see the frustration in how they have structured their pass prices.


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## yeggous (Apr 7, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> I guess its the long term view though that in order for the business to be healthy/sustainable for the long haul they need to tap into the younger demographic.
> They are hoping those kids get jobs, stay loyal to Mt Snow and then bring their families there. It may produce lower revenue/person now but could be good in the long run.
> I am surprised kids wouldn't spend much $ at the mtn though---always thought that crowd would be big drivers of the F+B profit center if they were skiing so cheaply.
> 
> On your side though I can totally see the frustration in how they have structured their pass prices.



They are in the ballpark for their NH kids pass prices. $399 ages 6-29. For the kids in that range they are more expensive than Crnamore, on par with Bretton Woods at first glance (but much expensive given the FREE season passes they give out, and a bit cheaper than the Super Pass.


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## Brad J (Apr 8, 2014)

Peak resorts have a problem with what direction they want to go . They are waiting lender approval to get funds for a snowmaking pump for Wildcat, but are starting Zip line construction in a couple of weeks at Attitash? It appears to me summer business is more important than winter business. That why no pass for this guy at Wildcat/ Attitash next year.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2014)

Brad J said:


> Peak resorts have a problem with what direction they want to go . They are waiting lender approval to get funds for a snowmaking pump for Wildcat, but are starting Zip line construction in a couple of weeks at Attitash? It appears to me summer business is more important than winter business. That why no pass for this guy at Wildcat/ Attitash next year.



Apprarently

Just to put numbers in perspective, the Gunstock zip line cost $1.5M to construct.  The zipline at Attitash is supposed to be even longer, so presumably it will cost even more to construct than Gunstock's.

I do know that Gunstock's zip exceeded profit expectations considerably.  So, it's probably a sound investment for Attitash to build this thing.

.....but, most skiers would rather see that 1.5M go towards snowmaking improvements at Wildcat......or a down payment on a new summit lift at Attitash


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## yeggous (Apr 8, 2014)

Brad J said:


> Peak resorts have a problem with what direction they want to go . They are waiting lender approval to get funds for a snowmaking pump for Wildcat, but are starting Zip line construction in a couple of weeks at Attitash? It appears to me summer business is more important than winter business. That why no pass for this guy at Wildcat/ Attitash next year.



If by summer being more important you mean more profitable then yes absolutely it is. In attempt at placating the crowd they said that adding the zipline was one way to increase revenue enough to cover the debt service on a new summit lift. I doubt this is true though. I see no reason that they would use summer profit to subsidize winter operations. They are getting a lot of summer competition from Cranmore and I expect them to keep expanding attractions.


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2014)

yeggous said:


> If by summer being more important you mean more profitable then yes absolutely it is. In attempt at placating the crowd they said that adding the zipline was one way to increase revenue enough to cover the debt service on a new summit lift. I doubt this is true though. I see no reason that they would use summer profit to subsidize winter operations. They are getting a lot of summer competition from Cranmore and I expect them to keep expanding attractions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app




To further this school of thought,  I know when Mount Snow's GM was asked at a meeting I attended a few weeks ago, if Peak had any intention of adding some "summer" attractions (ziplines/mountain coasters/etc) to Mount Snow, even as part of their master redevelopment plan over the next 10+ years, the answer was "no" and the Peak had decided that their core focus of expansion of summer attractions would be in the North Conway area as there is a significantly greater draw of people to that area in the summer already and a chance to capitalize on those people already in the area


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## yeggous (Apr 8, 2014)

drjeff said:


> To further this school of thought,  I know when Mount Snow's GM was asked at a meeting I attended a few weeks ago, if Peak had any intention of adding some "summer" attractions (ziplines/mountain coasters/etc) to Mount Snow, even as part of their master redevelopment plan over the next 10+ years, the answer was "no" and the Peak had decided that their core focus of expansion of summer attractions would be in the North Conway area as there is a significantly greater draw of people to that area in the summer already and a chance to capitalize on those people already in the area



Interesting to hear that. Summer and Fall are the peak tourist season in the Mt Washington Valley, and I mean by a large margin. Winter is relatively quiet in the valley. I can only assume the opposite is true in Vermont ski towns.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2014)

That makes sense.  North Conway is a zoo in the summer now.  

One problem they have with Cranmore is that Cranmore is in a better location for summer activities.  It's closer to town and it's not along a busy state highway.  I've always felt that Attitash's summer operation looked more like a roadside attraction.


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> That makes sense.  North Conway is a zoo in the summer now.
> 
> One problem they have with Cranmore is that Cranmore is in a better location for summer activities.  It's closer to town and it's not along a busy state highway.  I've always felt that Attitash's summer operation looked more like a roadside attraction.



Attitash just needs to get themselves a big 'ol snazzy billboard just before the 16/302 junction coming from North Conway to "convince" a few parents with car loads of kids heading for Storyland to go to Attitash instead 

From both having experienced Storyland 1st as a kid in the late 70's/early 80's and then as a parent with young kids a few years ago, the thought of alpine slides, zip lines, water slides and mountain coasters is WAY more appealing than a day on the tea cups and with big fuzzy fairy tale characters walking around!


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2014)

Last thing NH needs is more billboards.  Personally I'd like to see legislation like Vt and Me has outlawing them.


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## MadMadWorld (Apr 8, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Last thing NH needs is more billboards.  Personally I'd like to see legislation like Vt and Me has outlawing them.



Are billboards even effective anymore? I would have guest they became useless with the invention of the Internet and GPS


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 8, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Last thing NH needs is more billboards.  Personally I'd like to see legislation like Vt and Me has outlawing them.



The world would be a better place without billboards.  


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## Katahdin (Apr 9, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Attitash just needs to get themselves a big 'ol snazzy billboard just before the 16/302 junction coming from North Conway



They already have one about a mile down the road in Intervale at the junction with 16A near the Dunkin' Donuts.


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## Brad J (Apr 9, 2014)

Please don't give them another useless way to spend money so they reduce their snowmaking budget


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## ss20 (Apr 9, 2014)

Brad J said:


> Please don't give them another useless way to spend money so they reduce their snowmaking budget



I don't think you can have a negative snowmaking budget so we should be good!


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## yeggous (Apr 12, 2014)

Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.


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## Pa. Patroller (Apr 12, 2014)

Wow if that is true that's incredible 


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## gregnye (Apr 12, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Well considering that they never even made snow on Upper Wildcat, this shouldn't be a surprise to them! We can only hope things get better next year!


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## Brad J (Apr 13, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


do you think management wishes they gave the longtime snowmaking employees a wage they could live with now? wait to they see their season ticket sales. Please put the for sale sign up and please have Cranmore owners buy the place!!!!!


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## snoseek (Apr 13, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app





Good, they get what they deserve. I hope this is motivation for them to either sell or improve a lot. Those are some fucked up numbers right there...impressive. Top brass should all be fired for letting that happen.


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## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



I wonder if these are for both Attitash and Wildcat or just the 'Cat. Either way it's terrible, but if that is for two different hills then just WOW...


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## yeggous (Apr 14, 2014)

I believe they are for just Wildcat.

Given that the passholders were fleeing the Cat this year, lines on the Bear Peak side of Attitash were out of control. In comparison the main Attitash side was remarkably quiet.

You have to imagine that the management now recognizes the snow making failures as an existential threat. Unfortunately it does not appear that Peak Resorts has fully learned their lesson about cutting corners. They cheaped out last summer and rebuilt the old pumps rather than replacing them -- and that led to the failure this year. Now word has come that they've bought a bunch of surplus pipe from a company in Texas and plan to install it themselves. Yeah, that will end well.


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## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm betting the numbers are for both mountains because of how interconnected the tickets are. I bought mine at Wildcat and then after two runs went down to Attitash and hopped right on the lift with my other pass. Does that count for the cat or Attitash?


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## St. Bear (Apr 14, 2014)

If they're disclosing those numbers at a Wildcat town hall, I would imagine that they're just for the Cat, and not Attitash.  It's not hard to track point of sale.  What you do after the purchase, I don't see how they could track.



sull1102 said:


> I'm betting the numbers are for both mountains because of how interconnected the tickets are. I bought mine at Wildcat and then after two runs went down to Attitash and hopped right on the lift with my other pass. Does that count for the cat or Attitash?



Using that logic, this would count towards Wildcat, not Attitash.


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## yeggous (Apr 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> I find it hard to say rebuilding  pump is being cheap. We all do similar things all the time. Do we buy a new car when the brakes need rebuilding, or do we rebuild? What about repairing a rotted porch, do we buy new, or replace the rotted porch. Pumps fail all the time, be it for drawing too much current and tripping a breaker (on a very cold night, you ma not be able to reset that breaker fast enough unless you have paid a an to stand right next to the panel) or downright faire of the mechanical parts.
> 
> Calling pipe surplus makes it sound like bad pipe, it's leftover from a job and is still good pipe. I'm sure the welders can weld same as any other welder who can weld to install the pipe.



When the pump failed it was from a cracked casing of some sort. Not sure of the mechanical details.

It seems like the investments this summer are going to be primarily pipe and some new guns plus replacing the pumps in question. They just got new compressors because the new low energy guns require higher air pressure. This is a major reason why they had blowouts in the old pipes all over the place this year.


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## yeggous (Apr 14, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> A cracked casing? If it was cracked at rebuild time, they could not rebuild it, as it would never hold pressure. Sometimes, things break.



I'm not saying it was cracked at the time, but metal fatigue builds over time. I'm not sure what pressures they were running at either. It happened the first time they tried running the new guns on Lynx. I suspect that has something to do with it.

A lot more things failed this year than ever before. I'm not sure if it was just bad luck, the existing system reaching some critical age and falling apart, or a result of increased demands on the system from the new guns and compressors. I suspect the last two were most to blame.


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## Brad J (Apr 14, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Got word today on season stats. Ticket sales down 50%. Revenue down 30%. Lessons down 60%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



You have good intel, can you put numbers to the items, Like tickets sold , Number of pass holders , total revenue, lesson revenue???


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## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2014)

Brad J said:


> You have good intel, can you put numbers to the items, Like tickets sold , Number of pass holders , total revenue, lesson revenue???



I too would be very interested to see those as well


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

I don't have this year's numbers but can give you a general sense based on previous years. They have about 77k skier visits per year and $2.9M in revenue.

Lift tickets and season passes combined are about $1.9M at Wildcat. Of that, roughly 25-30% is season passes. Food and beverage is about $500k and retail is about $200k, which combined net about $500k (not counting labor) since their material costs are $200k. Rentals about $100k. Lessons about $300k. Their labor budget is $1.2M. Utilities costs are about $600k. Property taxes are $200k. They have $4.4M in outstanding debt at a rate of 4% (which is much less than the 10+% rate of Peak's other debt) which works out to $27,300 per month.


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## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2014)

It sounds like Peak as a whole is going to be in huge financial hole before next winter even gets here. They'll have to sell off something just to pay their debt.


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## St. Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous said:


> I don't have this year's numbers but can give you a general sense based on previous years. They have about 77k skier visits per year and $2.9M in revenue.
> 
> Lift tickets and season passes combined are about $1.9M at Wildcat. Of that, roughly 25-30% is season passes. Food and beverage is about $500k and retail is about $200k, which combined net about $500k (not counting labor) since their material costs are $200k. Rentals about $100k. Lessons about $300k. Their labor budget is $1.2M. Utilities costs are about $600k. Property taxes are $200k. They have $4.4M in outstanding debt at a rate of 4% (which is much less than the 10+% rate of Peak's other debt) which works out to $27,300 per month.



Not pretty.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> Not pretty.



This is why they wanted to go public a couple years ago. They wanted to use share holder money to pay off their high interest debt. They were not planning to touch Wildcat's debt since it is relatively low rate and owed directly to the previous owners.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous said:


> I don't have this year's numbers but can give you a general sense based on previous years. They have about 77k skier visits per year and $2.9M in revenue.
> 
> Lift tickets and season passes combined are about $1.9M at Wildcat. Of that, roughly 25-30% is season passes. Food and beverage is about $500k and retail is about $200k, which combined net about $500k (not counting labor) since their material costs are $200k. Rentals about $100k. Lessons about $300k. Their labor budget is $1.2M. Utilities costs are about $600k. Property taxes are $200k. They have $4.4M in outstanding debt at a rate of 4% (which is much less than the 10+% rate of Peak's other debt) which works out to $27,300 per month.



I know some restaurants in Stowe that do more total revenue than that.  

Those are alarmingly low numbers for ski area of Wildcat's size and proximity to N. Conway.


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## Edd (Apr 15, 2014)

Over the years unofficial estimates I've heard have often put the Cat's ticket sales below smaller, less impressive mountains. 


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

At least Wildcat's debt is on somewhat of a repayment plan. The Crotched, Attitash, and Mount Snow debt service is interest-only at a 10% rate.

Wildcat's revenue and skier visits is just about the lowest of any Peak Resorts area, including all those little hills. If you normalize those numbers to a per diem rate (dividing by the length of the season), it's not even a contest for the bottom spot.

Wildcat is also much more dependent on pass holders than most mountains. Their effective ticket price (revenue / total visits) is about $24, compared to $39 for Mt Snow and $35 for Attitash.


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## snoseek (Apr 15, 2014)

So what you're saying is Wildcat has been pretty dead all winter? Those numbers seem ridiculously small...500k for F&B....really???

I feel like I should go up there and buy a sympathy ticket or something.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

snoseek said:


> So what you're saying is Wildcat has been pretty dead all winter? Those numbers seem ridiculously small...500k for F&B....really???
> 
> I feel like I should go up there and buy a sympathy ticket or something.



Wildcat has always been pretty quiet. Those numbers are from previous years. This years drops are relative to those.


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## St. Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Wildcat has always been pretty quiet. Those numbers are from previous years. This years drops are relative to those.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



Oh man, that's even worse.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2014)

According to their marketing manager, they had over 100,000 paid skier visits during the 2009/2010 season.  He does not mention if that has ever been duplicated.  (see: http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasprindle )

Some comparisons for the 2009/2010 year:
Cannon: 103,387
Waterville Valley: 169,830  
Mad River Glen: 74,658

It's interesting to see that they were neck and neck with Cannon.  Both are farther north than the majority of areas in their region.  Both are susceptible to wind and cold.


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## St. Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> According to their marketing manager, they had over 100,000 paid skier visits during the 2009/2010 season.  He does not mention if that has ever been duplicated.  (see: http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasprindle )
> 
> Some comparisons for the 2009/2010 year:
> Cannon: 103,387
> ...



103k sounds really low for Cannon.  Wildcat does have North Conway nearby, but in terms of day trippers, Cannon pulls from a far greater population.  Wildcat is at least an hour further from all of Mass and the vast majority of NH.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

For 2010-2011, Wildcat had 77,100, Attitash 142,600, Crotched 104,200, and Mt Snow 466,200.

Wildcat's number can be crazy variable. For example, 2012-2013 was up 87% over the non-winter of 2011-2012.




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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous - do you have recent skier visit numbers for Bretton Woods and Cranmore?


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> yeggous - do you have recent skier visit numbers for Bretton Woods and Cranmore?



For 2010-2011: BW 192,000 and Cranmore 118,000.


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## MadMadWorld (Apr 15, 2014)

sull1102 said:


> It sounds like Peak as a whole is going to be in huge financial hole before next winter even gets here. They'll have to sell off something just to pay their debt.



How about a couple of those redundant chairlifts over at Attitash. What a waste.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

Pulled the 2011-2012 non-winter numbers too. Wildcat 90,00, cranmore 117,351, Bretton Woods 155,600, Attitash 150,000.


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## St. Bear (Apr 15, 2014)

What was the first year under Peak? 2010?

I used to go to Wildcat at least 3 or 4 times a year before they were bought because they had some really good deals. I've only been twice since they were bought because a lot of the desks have gone away. I'll grant that the past year or two has been better than the first couple, but still, I can't be the only one.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> What was the first year under Peak? 2010?
> 
> I used to go to Wildcat at least 3 or 4 times a year before they were bought because they had some really good deals. I've only been twice since they were bought because a lot of the desks have gone away. I'll grant that the past year or two has been better than the first couple, but still, I can't be the only one.



Right before the 2010-2011 season. I think the post purchase bounce was the main reasons numbers didn't plunge 2011-2012.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Pulled the 2011-2012 non-winter numbers too. Wildcat 90,00, cranmore 117,351, Bretton Woods 155,600, Attitash 150,000.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



You know, when you look at those numbers, Wildcat probably has the potential to be the most profitable percentage wise of those areas during the ski season.  They have vastly less infrastructure, snowmaking expenditures and the staff required to operate everything.  Only 1 base lodge and 3 lifts spinning most of the season compared to far more lifts and services at the other areas.

If they get their snowmaking house in order, they obviously have the terrain to close the skier visit gap against other areas in the MWV.


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## Edd (Apr 15, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You know, when you look at those numbers, Wildcat probably has the potential to be the most profitable percentage wise of those areas during the ski season.  They have vastly less infrastructure, snowmaking expenditures and the staff required to operate everything.




Just one reason why they rule during spring. One lift can essentially serve the entire mountain. 



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## Brad J (Apr 15, 2014)

yeggous said:


> I don't have this year's numbers but can give you a general sense based on previous years. They have about 77k skier visits per year and $2.9M in revenue.
> 
> Lift tickets and season passes combined are about $1.9M at Wildcat. Of that, roughly 25-30% is season passes. Food and beverage is about $500k and retail is about $200k, which combined net about $500k (not counting labor) since their material costs are $200k. Rentals about $100k. Lessons about $300k. Their labor budget is $1.2M. Utilities costs are about $600k. Property taxes are $200k. They have $4.4M in outstanding debt at a rate of 4% (which is much less than the 10+% rate of Peak's other debt) which works out to $27,300 per month.



Thank you for the info,  sounds like the really depend on their season pass holders, hope they get it together, interesting the previous owner finance the place, I am sure he doesn't want it back. I am hoping Cranmore will buy it????


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## Edd (Apr 15, 2014)

Brad J said:


> I am hoping Cranmore will buy it????



I would not bet on that. Although Cranmore and Wildcat would make an interesting pass. 


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

Edd said:


> I would not bet on that. Although Cranmore and Wildcat would make an interesting pass.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I suspect that Peak Resorts will sooner burn the place to the ground then sell Wildcat to a company with another holding near North Conway. To do so would be disastrous for Attitash.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2014)

Has there ever been a full MWV pass?  BW, Cranmore, Black, Attitash and Wildcat all on the same pass?


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## drjeff (Apr 15, 2014)

Let's see what Peak does after this "whatever could go wrong, probably did" season at Wildcat. They put a VERY solid person in at GM this past year (and Tim Boyd, CEO of Peak could of easily put one of his boys in as GM there as he has at other Peak properties, but chose an operations based guy with a very solid track record with multiple ski companies in the East + West) - let's see what Brian can do when he likely has lot's more "attention" from corporate HQ.

I know from talking Sunday afternoon with a pretty high up Peak operations guy, that while overall they had some serious issues with snowmaking at Wildcat this past season, when it was running, they got some very good production data from the multi manufacturer air/water gun test they did this season, and company wide ordering has been authorized based on those results


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## snoseek (Apr 15, 2014)

^^^^^I'll believe it when I see it happen. For now I hope they either sell or go under and have to sell. Either solution would be ok with many local NH people I've talked to


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## Brad J (Apr 15, 2014)

drjeff said:


> Let's see what Peak does after this "whatever could go wrong, probably did" season at Wildcat. They put a VERY solid person in at GM this past year (and Tim Boyd, CEO of Peak could of easily put one of his boys in as GM there as he has at other Peak properties, but chose an operations based guy with a very solid track record with multiple ski companies in the East + West) - let's see what Brian can do when he likely has lot's more "attention" from corporate HQ.
> 
> I know from talking Sunday afternoon with a pretty high up Peak operations guy, that while overall they had some serious issues with snowmaking at Wildcat this past season, when it was running, they got some very good production data from the multi manufacturer air/water gun test they did this season, and company wide ordering has been authorized based on those results



when will Mt Snow take delivery of them?


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## drjeff (Apr 15, 2014)

Brad J said:


> when will Mt Snow take delivery of them?



I have heard from very good sources that there are at least 3 states that new products will be heading too in the Peak portfolio. One of those states has 2 words with the 1st word starting with an N and the last word ends with an E ;-)


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## Brad J (Apr 15, 2014)

drjeff said:


> I have heard from very good sources that there are at least 3 states that new products will be heading too in the Peak portfolio. One of those states has 2 words with the 1st word starting with an N and the last word ends with an E ;-)



Damm Crotched must be very excited !!!!!


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## Edd (Apr 15, 2014)

Brad J said:


> Damm Crotched must be very excited !!!!!



Undeniably funny. Points awarded. 


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## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2014)

It's amazing how Crotched is actually a pretty solid operation and amazing considered to their Granite State brothers. If Wildcat had half of Crotched's snowmaking... Perfect


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## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2014)

No complaints at all about Crotched this season except they could probably use a better lift mechanic.  The Rocket seemed to go down everyday I was there.  Their commitment to snowmaking and resurfacing after bad weather was top notch.


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## yeggous (Apr 15, 2014)

sull1102 said:


> It's amazing how Crotched is actually a pretty solid operation and amazing considered to their Granite State brothers. If Wildcat had half of Crotched's snowmaking... Perfect



Clearly you have not spent a lot of time on the Crotched Rocket. Then again, that would be hard to do considering how frequently it breaks,

With that said, you are right. I'm just not lucky enough to see Wildcat receive a fan gun snowmaking system capable of burying the entire mountain and resurfacing the whole thing in two days like Crotched can. It's just not a realistic expectation given the dramatically different acreage.


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## Quietman (Apr 16, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Clearly you have not spent a lot of time on the Crotched Rocket. Then again, that would be hard to do considering how frequently it breaks,


I was there for the last 3 weekends in March, and it never was down.  Hopefully they have most of the issues worked out.


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## sull1102 (Apr 16, 2014)

It did come second hand from Ascutney after sitting idle for a good bit.


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 16, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> No complaints at all about Crotched this season except they could probably use a better lift mechanic.  The Rocket seemed to go down everyday I was there.  Their commitment to snowmaking and resurfacing after bad weather was top notch.



I wonder if they will do anything about the pond?  It sounds like their commitment to snowmaking is undermined by their water capacity.  


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## yeggous (Apr 16, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I wonder if they will do anything about the pond?  It sounds like their commitment to snowmaking is undermined by their water capacity.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I know that this has moved to the top of their priority list, but it is not an easy fix. Expanding the pond capacity is unlikely the be practical or the right solution. There is talk of pumping uphill from a swamp down the street. I imagine this involves a lot of permitting and will not be cheap.


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## Quietman (Apr 16, 2014)

sull1102 said:


> It did come second hand from Ascutney after sitting idle for a good bit.



A big factor with the Rocket is that it (and Crotched's West Double) run more hours per week than any other lifts in the east.  Mon-Thur 9am-9pm, Fri-Sat 9am-3am, and Sun 9am-5pm.  That's about 92 hours per week and more like 96 with startup and shutdown, and it doesn't leave much time for preventive maintenance.  The average lift at a major resort without night skiing runs about 50-55 hrs a week.  That is a big difference!


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## dlague (Apr 16, 2014)

Quietman said:


> A big factor with the Rocket is that it (and Crotched's West Double) run more hours per week than any other lifts in the east.  Mon-Thur 9am-9pm, Fri-Sat 9am-3am, and Sun 9am-5pm.  That's about 92 hours per week and more like 96 with startup and shutdown, and it doesn't leave much time for preventive maintenance.  The average lift at a major resort without night skiing runs about 50-55 hrs a week.  That is a big difference!



Never really thought about that!  That is a whole bunch of hours!  We actually like Crotched better than Pats Peak and the new chair helps to solidify that thought.  However, we do not ski either that often!  In fact, this year 1 time a Pats (freebie) and 0 at Crotched.

Interesting how this thread morphed into a Crotched discussion!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2014)

This has been an interesting discussion about Peak Resorts in general.  

One observation now seven years out from the complete sinking of ASC is how the successors are faring.  Then Boyne was a favorite as was Peak Resorts with POWDR very FAR behind in terms of popularity and likability.  Now it seems as if Peak and POWDR have swapped spots and just can't do anything right in the eyes of many or just doesn't have the resources.  

The folks at Sunday River and Sugarloaf have been largely very happy.  Sure Sugarloafers do feel a bit cheated that they have not seen as much investment as SR (Chondola vs. Skyline Quad for example, later start, etc).  But overall my experience both there and listening to folks on here is that they are very happy and loyal to Boyne.  Throw in Loon as well...some good investments there and some expansion as well.  A few years back someone on here told me about how impressive Loon's snowmaking infrastructure was now and how fast they could make snow.  All of this was done pretty quietly.  It seems like Boyne has been very consistent.

POWDR started out as a complete trainwreck in so many ways.  But, seven years out, the management has changed.  No Pico Interconnect nor any significant changes with lifts (except for Skye Peak HSQ).  The new summit lodge looks impressive.  No village either.  But the new manager seems to be giving the (remaining) loyalists what they want.  Call it better than it was.  A lot of things that were broken have been fixed and a lot of deferred maintenance has been done, even if it meant tearing down old lifts that were too expensive to maintain and saw little if any traffic (RIP Devil's Fiddle and South Ridge Triple).    

I for one was very, very surprised in the Spring of 2007 when ASC announced that Peak Resorts was the suitor for Mount Snow AND Attitash for a cool $90 mill or so IIRC.  The successive sales were all announced within a short time and there was speculation.  But I never saw Peaks as in the mix...maybe Triple Peaks (Sunapee-Okemo-Crested Butte) but not little Peak Resorts and their chain of feeder hills.  I saw this as a huge change for Peak which, up until then, had operated on a relatively small budget and whose last project, Crotched in 2003, was done using hand-me-down lifts, a no-frills lodge, and no lodging or housing.  Going from a "day" area such as Crotched to a RESORT such as Mount Snow was a huge leap.  You're now talking about having to run restaurants, lodging, summer operations, events, etc. on top of handling much more infrastructure that is older and many, many more employees.  Attitash was the same, to a lesser extent.  

From what I saw, folks (like our own drjeff) were VERY happy with Mount Snow; Crotched folks were stoked to have two "resorts" added to their passes, and Attitash just seemed, well, meh.  Attitash has always seemed to be meh (we don't have a large following here).  As things went along it just looked like Attitash was limping along...nothing really big happening there for improvements.  No real plan with it.  Just on autopilot.  

So hearing about Wildcat's sale was good (it had been on the market for some time), but slowly I've heard more grumbles about Peak and their tight resources.  Their IPO disappeared I guess.....maybe that was going to be their funding for Wildcat.  I have not skied Wildcat.  I hiked it in 2008 via the ski trails and observed the infrastructure that was quite old and the very old school terrain stretched up and down the mountain.  The lodge was pretty basic from memory and the base area small.  No frills indeed.  Besides old snowmaking, I also so some older lifts.  A lot of capital would be needed.  IIRC the family that owned it had it on the market for many, many years with not many interested buyers.  They just kept it going as it was with no real improvements for many years and many bandaids from what I saw.  So maybe Peak bit off more than they could chew on this one.       

Wildcat is kind of similar to Burke in terms of numbers and situation.  It is a local's place with (generally) older infrastructure, lots of acreage that makes expanded snowmaking very costly, a bit out of the way, and currently limited streams of revenue.  Burke has much more developable land than Wildcat, but then again in my lifetime there have been so many "master plans" that have never come to fruition despite how "inevitable" it seemed that it would.

As to Cranmore/Jiminy buying it, that might be a possibility.  I don't know much about them, other than they did a lot at Jiminy and took over a (relatively) modern Cranmore that had significant upgrades in the late 1980's, an infusion of $$$$ from LBO and ASC in the 1990's, and had been well kept by Booth Creek.  Wildcat needs a lot of TLC and is much larger and more intensive than Cranmore.  It also is not right in downtown Conway.


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## ss20 (Apr 17, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> As to Cranmore/Jiminy buying it, that might be a possibility.  I don't know much about them, other than they did a lot at Jiminy and took over a (relatively) modern Cranmore that had significant upgrades in the late 1980's, an infusion of $$$$ from LBO and ASC in the 1990's, and had been well kept by Booth Creek.  Wildcat needs a lot of TLC and is much larger and more intensive than Cranmore.  It also is not right in downtown Conway.



I don't see Jiminy buying it.  Jiminy has a base village and Cranmore has one in the works.  They also have mountain coasters and Cranmore has tubing.  Like you said, Wildcat is a locals mountain.  Not a resort.  That's what the Fairbank's would do to Wildcat.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2014)

ss20 said:


> I don't see Jiminy buying it.  Jiminy has a base village and Cranmore has one in the works.  They also have mountain coasters and Cranmore has tubing.  Like you said, Wildcat is a locals mountain.  Not a resort.  That's what the Fairbank's would do to Wildcat.



Thanks for the info.  I only (vaguely) knew that the Jiminy folks were involved with Cranmore but nothing more specific.  I just don't see Wildcat as being their ideal thing.


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## drjeff (May 28, 2014)

Let's see what 2 million in upgrades will do for Wildcat's snowmaking this coming season

http://skiwildcat.com/press-room.html?key=5581


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## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

Looking forward to it.  Probably going to skip getting a pass there this season and just get a Vertical Value card for next season, a few other discount cards and wonder a bit.  If things are much improved, I'll gladly get a pass there again down the road.


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## yeggous (May 28, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Looking forward to it.  Probably going to skip getting a pass there this season and just get a Vertical Value card for next season, a few other discount cards and wonder a bit.  If things are much improved, I'll gladly get a pass there again down the road.



After last year we are buying just one season pass instead of two. I am a loyal Wildcat skier, but even I could not stand the place this January.

Reading through the details... the debt service should be just about covered by the diesel savings.

9 miles of pipe should cover four top-to-bottom routes. That might actually just replacing current snowmaking areas without expanding:
1) Polecat 
2) Lynx
3) Catapult
4) Lower mountain: Cheetah, Bobcat, Wildcat Pitch, Wild Kitten


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## yeggous (May 28, 2014)

I am hoping this means they plan to put on a gun show early season this year to showcase their new toys.


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## deadheadskier (May 28, 2014)

I wonder if they'd be willing to comment on which specific trails will be seeing the new pipe and guns.  

I hope they're not done after this year.  It would be great to see trails like Upper Wildcat see some new equipment as well.


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## yeggous (May 28, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder if they'd be willing to comment on which specific trails will be seeing the new pipe and guns.
> 
> I hope they're not done after this year.  It would be great to see trails like Upper Wildcat see some new equipment as well.



At the passholder meeting this year they said that they were planning to blow on Upper Wildcat this year (80th anniversary and all) until everything hit the fan. They also said that Upper Wildcat has some of the oldest pipe on the mountain so it might be a prime candidate for replacement. It does have a couple awful chokepoints, like the Upper Catapult / Wildcat intersection, which might create issues.


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## xwhaler (May 29, 2014)

Wonder if this firepower will extend the season on both ends? Could we see Wildcat possibly getting into the October game w/ Killington/SR or just trying to compete on the back end?
Early season if they could somehow cover an entire route down off the HSQ they may corner that market entirely.
Regardless, its a nice step for them.


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## yeggous (May 29, 2014)

xwhaler said:


> Wonder if this firepower will extend the season on both ends? Could we see Wildcat possibly getting into the October game w/ Killington/SR or just trying to compete on the back end?
> Early season if they could somehow cover an entire route down off the HSQ they may corner that market entirely.
> Regardless, its a nice step for them.



That was the stated goal at the passholder meeting. They said they want to blow early on Lynx and be the first in New England to open top-to-bottom. Big words but we will see. They finally will have the capacity to make an attempt. After Lynx they will move to Polecat.


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## deadheadskier (May 29, 2014)

yeggous said:


> At the passholder meeting this year they said that they were planning to blow on Upper Wildcat this year (80th anniversary and all) until everything hit the fan. They also said that Upper Wildcat has some of the oldest pipe on the mountain so it might be a prime candidate for replacement. It does have a couple awful chokepoints, like the Upper Catapult / Wildcat intersection, which might create issues.



I've always felt if Wildcat could do only 1 trail expansion project, they should put a perimeter trail coming off Upper Wildcat and reconnecting at Cheetah / Lower Wildcat.  Middle Wildcat is always such an icy mess due to the amount of traffic that funnels through there to get to the lower mountain trails on that side of the mountain.  Such a trail would reduce the amount of traffic on Middle Wildcat making it less icy / safer and it would also make for a pretty cool, long sort of intermediate version of Polecat on that side of the mountain.  I know permitting would be near impossible due to the ski area being on NFS land, but I think it would be worth applying for under the guise of "improving skier safety" at the mountain.


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## MadMadWorld (May 29, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I've always felt if Wildcat could do only 1 trail expansion project, they should put a perimeter trail coming off Upper Wildcat and reconnecting at Cheetah / Lower Wildcat.  Middle Wildcat is always such an icy mess due to the amount of traffic that funnels through there to get to the lower mountain trails on that side of the mountain.  Such a trail would reduce the amount of traffic on Middle Wildcat making it less icy / safer and it would also make for a pretty cool, long sort of intermediate version of Polecat on that side of the mountain.  I know permitting would be near impossible due to the ski area being on NFS land, but I think it would be worth applying for under the guise of "improving skier safety" at the mountain.



Upper Wildcat can get beat up by the wind and I would hate to see trails there for my own selfish reasons


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