# RIP:  Jamie Pierre



## marcski (Nov 14, 2011)

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52907844-78/avalanche-pierre-resort-hoyal.html.csp


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## Nick (Nov 14, 2011)

*Jamie Pierre dies in avalanche*

Just saw this morning on first tracks

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...ine/pDno+(First+Tracks!!+Online+Ski+Magazine)

Very sad, the guy was a crazy huckmaster... Rip


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## Nick (Nov 14, 2011)

Just saw this and posted at the same time..  sad news the guy was really talented


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## marcski (Nov 14, 2011)

My links don't seem to want to work this morning....  Yes, very sad.  My buddy who lives out there told me about the big storm coming in this weekend when I spoke to hom on friday.  He went out skinning and skiing yesterday at Alta...I wonder if he saw the emergency response.


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## SkiDork (Nov 14, 2011)

sux


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## Cannonball (Nov 14, 2011)

that sucks for his family.

It's a little bit ironic though.  With Pierre there was never a question of "if" he would die skiing just "when".  He seemed almost hell-bent on killing himself with his big drops.  But this accident didn't fit that profile.  He was snowboarding (not his main tool) and was caught in a slide rather than intentionally plummeting hundreds of feet.  Although it sounds like it was an ill advised choice to be there given the avy conditions.


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## Nick (Nov 14, 2011)

This video of him from GoPro is one of my favorites... so well done. ... outpouring of comments on the youtube page also


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## MadPatSki (Nov 14, 2011)

Cannonball said:


> that sucks for his family.
> 
> It's a little bit ironic though.  With Pierre there was never a question of "if" he would die skiing just "when".  He seemed almost hell-bent on killing himself with his big drops.  But this accident didn't fit that profile.  He was snowboarding (not his main tool) and was caught in a slide rather than intentionally plummeting hundreds of feet.  Although it sounds like it was an ill advised choice to be there given the avy conditions.



There were many slides that were triggered in the LCC this weekend from what I read. It would seem that Jamie Pierre died from his injuries as he was carried over a cliff (not a huge one). You don't need to be a superstar to kill yourself like that, it could have happened to many of us in the same situation. It's somewhat ironic that Pierre jumped off a 255 ft cliff in 2006 and survived only to be killed skiing fairly conservatively. I guess it was time.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2011)

You would think a guy with his experience would have more common sense than to ski gullies that are at a high risk to slide.   

The article stated he and his buddy likely triggered another slide before the slide that killed him.  Wonder why he didn't turn around and head for a safer lower angle route down.  Guess we'll never know.

RIP

definitely a great skier


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2011)

As MPS said, there were a lot of avalanche this weekend at Alta and Snowbird.  So many that they have put on both ski area's websites notices that the mountains are closed to hiking.  I was seriously considering going for some XC skiing, but life and the roads made me reconsider.  Snowmonster told me about this incident.  It is very sad.  Thoughts and prayers for his family, including his wife and kids.


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## TheBEast (Nov 14, 2011)

RIP.....sad for sure.


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## Abubob (Nov 14, 2011)

An avalanche death already? Too soon. Always too soon.


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 14, 2011)

Report from Utah Avy Center.

RIP


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## riverc0il (Nov 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder why he didn't turn around and head for a safer lower angle route down.  Guess we'll never know.


I think we do already know. It is why avi deaths keep happening. Skiers and riders think they know what they are doing. No one skis a line thinking "this is probably going to kill me" but rather "this aspect is different than that other aspect, I am confident it won't go". I gotta wonder if Avalanche instruction needs to focus even more on decision making and less on the science? I don't know. It is why I don't pursue avalanche terrain... I know I couldn't trust myself to be unbiased after hiking 3k vert to ski pow.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2011)

MadPatSki said:


> It's somewhat ironic that Pierre jumped off a 255 ft cliff in 2006 and survived only to be killed skiing fairly conservativel.



I read an article that called the trail (Barry Barry Steep) "easier" expert terrain, than some other trails/routes right in that same area where he died.


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## riverc0il (Nov 14, 2011)

> We interviewed the victim's ski partner.  While neither had any rescue gear or formal avalanche training...




Wow, this guy was a pro without any avi training or gear.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> You would think a guy with his experience would have more common sense than to ski gullies that are at a high risk to slide.
> 
> The article stated he and his buddy likely triggered another slide before the slide that killed him.  Wonder why he didn't turn around and head for a safer lower angle route down.  Guess we'll never know.
> 
> ...



You know it was not a matter of easy vs hard terrain.  The snow was just too unstable everywhere yesterday.  There were at least 10-12 avalanches yesterday alone in Alta/Snowbird.  So many that Alta Ski Patrol kicked everyone out...even though the area was not open and folks were just hiking.  

And the thing that really shocked me was that the report indicated that Jamie's partner said that neither of them had avi training or equipment.  Now that makes no sense.  I imagine that must be a typo.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I think we do already know. It is why avi deaths keep happening. Skiers and riders think they know what they are doing. No one skis a line thinking "this is probably going to kill me" but rather "this aspect is different than that other aspect, I am confident it won't go". I gotta wonder if Avalanche instruction needs to focus even more on decision making and less on the science? I don't know. It is why I don't pursue avalanche terrain... I know I couldn't trust myself to be unbiased after hiking 3k vert to ski pow.



only time I've been in true avalanche type conditions / terrain was going to ski some side country I believe is called The Fingers off the back of Abasin with some locals.  I had never been, they were interested in skiing the 2nd one out from the resort.  As we crossed the top of the 1st gully, the 1st person out set off a fracture.  We all immediately abandoned the thought and headed back to the mountain.

I would've figured had Jaime set off one already, that he'd call it a day.  That would've been my decision anyhow.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> You know it was not a matter of easy vs hard terrain.  The snow was just too unstable everywhere yesterday.



right, but snow on a 20 degree slope isn't as likely to slide as snow on a 40 degree slope.  That's what I'm suggesting he should have looked for.


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## riverc0il (Nov 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I would've figured had Jaime set off one already, that he'd call it a day.  That would've been my decision anyhow.


Yea, totally. That is the really weird that they didn't heed what nature was telling them. Perhaps lack of avi training was part of the reason. Though I could easily see someone well versed in avi training thinking they were just on the wrong aspect when something went and that another aspect might be better. Just bad decisions all around even in the face of overwhelming evidence that something was wrong.

Hopefully something good will come of this and others facing similar conditions this season might reflect on this news and make different decisions that result in other lives not being lost. This news is massive, it is on pretty much every forum and blog today.


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## AdironRider (Nov 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> right, but snow on a 20 degree slope isn't as likely to slide as snow on a 40 degree slope.  That's what I'm suggesting he should have looked for.



Prime slope angle to start avalanches is 32 degrees. Anything higher usually implies that it slides promptly during the events, and lower is just a hazard reduction. 

I have trouble feeling bad about this, considering basically every rule of travel in avalanche terrain was broken, and the only reason this guy is famous is cause he lawn darted a 250 foot cliff of the back of Targhee. Guy got his death wish IMO. No training or avi gear? Retarded. 

This is no different than the moron who speedflew himself into a rock just a week or two ago. Had it coming.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Prime slope angle to start avalanches is 32 degrees. Anything higher usually implies that it slides promptly during the events, and lower is just a hazard reduction.
> 
> I have trouble feeling bad about this, considering basically every rule of travel in avalanche terrain was broken, and the only reason this guy is famous is cause he lawn darted a 250 foot cliff of the back of Targhee. Guy got his death wish IMO. No training or avi gear? Retarded.
> 
> This is no different than the moron who speedflew himself into a rock just a week or two ago. Had it coming.



Well Said!  I know plenty of people who would huck themselves off a cliff on a dare, doesn't mean they are a great skier or a knowledgeable mountaineer, could just mean they were a thrill seeker with a few screws loose and with no regard for human lives (yours or others).  Nothing really special in my opinion, just dumb.


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## ski_resort_observer (Nov 14, 2011)

The guy really pushed the envelope so I'm not too shocked. Not sure what motivates someone to take such risks. He ended upside down in some deep snow after he did the big jump off the back of GT.  Not sure if he would have survived it if there were not people at the landing zone to pull him out. Feel bad for his family.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2011)

The other thing that does not make sense is that they started in Alta, hiked over Baldy, and were about to hit a shot on Cirque Ridge, which is right below the Tram at Snowbird.  That is a hell of a hike considering that they could have just parked at Snowbird Center and hoofed it up Dick Bass Highway and cut over from Gad Valley.  This, setting off another avi and continuing, and not having training for avalanche or gear make me go :blink:  Too many weird things here.....


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## riverc0il (Nov 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> The other thing that does not make sense is that they started in Alta, hiked over Baldy, and were about to hit a shot on Cirque Ridge, which is right below the Tram at Snowbird.  That is a hell of a hike considering that they could have just parked at Snowbird Center and hoofed it up Dick Bass Highway and cut over from Gad Valley.  This, setting off another avi and continuing, and not having training for avalanche or gear make me go :blink:  Too many weird things here.....


They could have been planning on skinning back up Snowbird and going back down Alta. Multi-aspect tours are very cool from my perspective. It is neat to hike up one side, ski another aspect, then hike back up and return. I don't know the geography of Alta/Bird, though. Maybe they were calling an audible and deviated from their plan for some reason?


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## andyzee (Nov 14, 2011)

Be serious, if nothing else, no one is going to accuse these guys of being geniuses. Don't over analyze.


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## MadPatSki (Nov 14, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> They could have been planning on skinning back up Snowbird and going back down Alta. Multi-aspect tours are very cool from my perspective. It is neat to hike up one side, ski another aspect, then hike back up and return. I don't know the geography of Alta/Bird, though. Maybe they were calling an audible and deviated from their plan for some reason?



Easier way up through Alta? I remember ready some folks placing a car at the bottom of the Bird and starting off in Alta. Or was it the other way around (when one or both are closed).


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 15, 2011)

Duhhhh. Isn't Alta base is hundreds of feet higher elevation than Snowbird?

Less vertical hike up, more vertical/longer ride down going up Alta to Baldy down Bird.


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## marcski (Nov 15, 2011)

The place was packed over the weekend.  I saw a pic of Alta's parking lot and it was quite full....you'd never know the lifts weren't spinning by looking at the lot.


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## Nick (Nov 15, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, this guy was a pro without any avi training or gear.



Yeah, that really surprised me to! The guy spends his entire career in the backcountry!


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## Nick (Nov 15, 2011)

ski_resort_observer said:


> The guy really pushed the envelope so I'm not too shocked. Not sure what motivates someone to take such risks. He ended upside down in some deep snow after he did the big jump off the back of GT.  Not sure if he would have survived it if there were not people at the landing zone to pull him out. Feel bad for his family.



I had read somewhere they thought he landed head-first on purpose... that it was the fact that he landed like that that allowed him to live? 

I'll have to see if I can dig that up...


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## Warp Daddy (Nov 15, 2011)

Sad , just sad for all involved


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## bigbog (Nov 15, 2011)

Lots of these young guys, with a strong list of activity skills...sometimes dismiss Motha Nature's(and AviPatrol!) tell-tale warning signs....agreed Warp..Is Sad.


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 15, 2011)

This link is the same page I posted before, but it is now far more in depth as UAC has done some investigation.

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/accident_gad_valley_11132011

There are some typos in the Weather and Avy History section. I think some "Octobers" are supposed to be "Novembers."

Also worth noting is this snow profile showing the weak snowpack in Peruvian Cirque. The cirque, being where the party set off the first avy which did not catch them.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2011)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Duhhhh. Isn't Alta base is hundreds of feet higher elevation than Snowbird?
> 
> Less vertical hike up, more vertical/longer ride down going up Alta to Baldy down Bird.



It's not that much higher and whatever gain you get is cancelled by the length of the approach to Snowbird via Baldy.  But as Riv suggested, these guys were probably touring and doing different aspects all day.  The pictures in the avi report are really telling.


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## skiadikt (Nov 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> The other thing that does not make sense is that they started in Alta, hiked over Baldy, and were about to hit a shot on Cirque Ridge, which is right below the Tram at Snowbird.  That is a hell of a hike considering that they could have just parked at Snowbird Center and hoofed it up Dick Bass Highway and cut over from Gad Valley.  This, setting off another avi and continuing, and not having training for avalanche or gear make me go :blink:  Too many weird things here.....



read somewhere that it happened on barry barry steep.

agree, i don't understand them hiking up alta, up the high baldy traverse to ski something in the south cirque area. maybe there were too many people skiing alta.


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## catskills (Nov 15, 2011)

Nick said:


> Yeah, that really surprised me to! The guy spends his entire career in the backcountry!


He is a professional.  Professionals don't need no stinking AVI gear.  Seriously not having AVI gear did not change the results in this case.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> read somewhere that it happened on barry barry steep.
> 
> agree, i don't understand them hiking up alta, up the high baldy traverse to ski something in the south cirque area. maybe there were too many people skiing alta.



Yes, they were near Barry, Barry Steep...like one or two chutes over.  But FWIW some people call the whole area South Chutes.  

I just got back from a drive up there to see what was going on.  Snowmaking is underway on the usual suspects....Big Emma, Lowest Bassackwards...Chickadee...and the base of Peruvian.  It is very bony out there.  I could see up into the area where the accident took place and there are lots of exposed rocks.  Alta had slightly more snow, but not much more.  They are getting Collins ready to go.  Word has it that Friday is the day for both areas.  No spoiler for Snowbird I guess.  I spoke with an employee who was getting Creekside ready.


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## JimG. (Nov 15, 2011)

Nick said:


> I had read somewhere they thought he landed head-first on purpose... that it was the fact that he landed like that that allowed him to live?



That makes about as much sense as skiing OB without avi training or gear.

Which in this case means it is probably true. There was a loose cannon aspect to Pierre's career that predestined this outcome. Dead man walking.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 15, 2011)

catskills said:


> He is a professional.  Professionals don't need no stinking AVI gear.  Seriously not having AVI gear did not change the results in this case.



I disagree.Granted the snow didn't bury and sufficate him.however,if they had training and avi gear that usually contains a shovel and other items to test snow stability,they may have made a different choice.


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## legalskier (Nov 15, 2011)

Good article in _*Skiing*_ (which re-publishes their feature from six years ago). Here's part of the intro:

_*Remembering Jamie Pierre*
*** Pierre, who filmed with TGR and Warren Miller, was best known for his balls-out approach to skiing. In 2006, he set the world record for the largest cliff drop when he sent a *255-foot cliff *at Grand Targhee, Wyoming.
In 2005, Skiing executive editor Mike Kessler wrote a profile of Pierre, which looked at why he was motivated to keep going bigger—and how his history of partying, his family, and God played into that. The story, which made the Notable List in Best American Sports Writing 2006, is below. Pierre’s life had certainly changed in the six years since the story was published; *he’d had two kids* and moved to Montana. But now, when we’re all thinking a lot about Pierre’s place in the skiing world, it’s worth re-reading. *** _
Link: http://www.skinet.com/skiing/articles/jamie-pierre-story?cmpid=enews111411 

Old enough to be a parent yet young enough to still believe he was bullet proof. Very very sad. RIP, condolences to his family.


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## Nick (Nov 15, 2011)

They had a video here


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 15, 2011)

JimG. said:


> That makes about as much sense as skiing OB without avi training or gear.
> 
> Which in this case means it is probably true. There was a loose cannon aspect to Pierre's career that predestined this outcome. Dead man walking.



really profound insight.  he was destined to die.  a dead man walking.   you, me, anyone else is different how? 

pretty comfortable in your bubble, are you positive it will protect you? 

it would be comical if it wasn't so horribly sad how people are so righteous with regards to  another person's death


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## AdironRider (Nov 15, 2011)

Look, if he just slipped an edge on a groomer and pinballed some trees, that would be sad. 

But this guy continued to ski despite a thousand different warning signs that it wasnt a good idea to ski that day, including multiple previous avis on similar aspects. 

That, plus his history of just hucking for jesus (and really its not that impressive to just hot tub a landing) for fame and fortune leads to the dead man walking description, and an apt one at that. 

Noone is saying its a happy day today in the ski world, but Pierre was practically asking for this outcome. He wasnt killing it on the dew tour, wasnt picking up that many large video parts. His only gimic was he went bigger than anyone else. When thats your MO, you pay the consequences. 

Sucks he now left a mother and two kids without a Dad becuase he decided to make bad decisions for his career.


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## marcski (Nov 15, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, they were near Barry, Barry Steep...like one or two chutes over.  But FWIW some people call the whole area South Chutes.
> 
> I just got back from a drive up there to see what was going on.  Snowmaking is underway on the usual suspects....Big Emma, Lowest Bassackwards...Chickadee...and the base of Peruvian.  It is very bony out there.  I could see up into the area where the accident took place and there are lots of exposed rocks.  Alta had slightly more snow, but not much more.  They are getting Collins ready to go.  Word has it that Friday is the day for both areas.  No spoiler for Snowbird I guess.  I spoke with an employee who was getting Creekside ready.



The 18th has been Alta's projected opening for months.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2011)

marcski said:


> The 18th has been Alta's projected opening for months.



Right, but word had it that Snowbird was going to be a spoiler......that was what I was interested in confirming.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 15, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Look, if he just slipped an edge on a groomer and pinballed some trees, that would be sad.
> 
> But this guy continued to ski despite a thousand different warning signs that it wasnt a good idea to ski that day, including multiple previous avis on similar aspects.
> 
> ...



must be nice to have such a black and white perspective, really saves the on the energy and time to develop empathy.  god forbid someone live outside your comfort level, I can see how it would be a lot easier to dismiss their lives to justify your beliefs


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## bigbog (Nov 15, 2011)

Man, that is _NOT_ the place to be caught up in........


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## marcski (Nov 16, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, but word had it that Snowbird was going to be a spoiler......that was what I was interested in confirming.



Ahhh, not much of a race up there.  Alta pretty much always sticks to their projected opening and closing dates.  They'll extend a weekend or so on the back end at most.   

I hear there is a bustling legal scene at the top of LCC.  . Go get'em.


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## JimG. (Nov 16, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> really profound insight.  he was destined to die.  a dead man walking.   you, me, anyone else is different how?
> 
> pretty comfortable in your bubble, are you positive it will protect you?
> 
> it would be comical if it wasn't so horribly sad how people are so righteous with regards to  another person's death



Who's being righteous?

If I had said that I knew he was going to die this way for the past 10 years and now I'm happy that my prediction came true I could see your anger.

That's not the case. And if he wanted to throw himself off 255 foot cliffs and land on his head and think he would never get hurt doing that, fine by me. Not so great for his family.

And I have no bubble...I'm painfully aware of my mortality. In Pierre's case what I said was obvious...he was going to keep doing his act until he killed himself. And he did.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

JimG. said:


> Who's being righteous?
> 
> If I had said that I knew he was going to die this way for the past 10 years and now I'm happy that my prediction came true I could see your anger.
> 
> ...



which act was that Jim, purposefully managing to send it off a cliff or purposefully getting swept over a cliff band in an avalanche

don't read my response as sounding angry, try disbelief or sadness as a tone when you read it, its your opinion, its just an interesting line to draw, believing your on the right side and "they" are on the wrong side, perception is a dangerous thing to rely on

its always incredible how everyone knows so much about how another person is affecting the lives of someone elses family, or the idea that death somehow erases their impact on the family's life


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## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> I The pictures in the avi report are really telling.



definitely

setting off a slide like in the photo and then continuing to pursue steep terrain shows an incredible lack of judgment IMO.  I'd rather live to ski another day.


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## drjeff (Nov 16, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> definitely
> 
> setting off a slide like in the photo and then continuing to pursue steep terrain shows an incredible lack of judgment IMO.  I'd rather live to ski another day.



Who knows if its igornance (probably not in this situation, but you never know) or arrogance??  But either way stupidity played a big roll in this event.  And the side that wants to glorify him for what he's done in the past and this "accident" (and one can easily argue the case that this really wasn't an accident) will be looked upon by many (likely with even less BC skills/training) not as a wake up call but as a call to get out and do what could very well be even more ignorant things that could very well take more lives needlessly and also put the lives of search and rescue crews in jeaprody.

Harsh words,  maybe.  But i'm sure that 10, 15, 20 years from now, when his family is at a family gathering, they'd much rather be pointing to a person than a picture when talking about him.  And that simple concept seems to be lost upon far too many folks


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Who knows if its igornance (probably not in this situation, but you never know) or arrogance??  But either way stupidity played a big roll in this event.  And the side that wants to glorify him for what he's done in the past and this "accident" (and one can easily argue the case that this really wasn't an accident) will be looked upon by many (likely with even less BC skills/training) not as a wake up call but as a call to get out and do what could very well be even more ignorant things that could very well take more lives needlessly and also put the lives of search and rescue crews in jeaprody.
> 
> Harsh words,  maybe.  But i'm sure that 10, 15, 20 years from now, when his family is at a family gathering, they'd much rather be pointing to a person than a picture when talking about him.  And that simple concept seems to be lost upon far too many folks



the idea that one person's decision should have any relevance to your own decision making is far more concerning than sifting through woulda, coulda, shoulda, conversations

berating the dead is useless, even more so than stating you would rather have your friend or loved one alive vs. gone


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## deadheadskier (Nov 16, 2011)

I'm not sure Dr. Jeff is berating the dead as much as he is saying this should be a teachable moment such that others don't follow in Jaime's footsteps instead a moment to reflect on how "hardcore" of a skier he was.


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## AdironRider (Nov 16, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure Dr. Jeff is berating the dead as much as he is saying this should be a teachable moment such that others don't follow in Jaime's footsteps instead a moment to reflect on how "hardcore" of a skier he was.



Bingo.


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## drjeff (Nov 16, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure Dr. Jeff is berating the dead as much as he is saying this should be a teachable moment such that others don't follow in Jaime's footsteps instead a moment to reflect on how "hardcore" of a skier he was.



Exactly.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> definitely
> 
> setting off a slide like in the photo and then continuing to pursue steep terrain shows an incredible lack of judgment IMO.  I'd rather live to ski another day.



IIRC the report indicated that Pierre and his friend "did not notice" this avalanche.  It just keeps getting weirder.....


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

oh.  so comments like "he had it coming", "stupidity", "arrogance", "he's going to kill himself" are all teachable terms.  here i thought dying would have been lesson enough to seek your own education for those considering similar interests.  

since you guys were there though I can see how being  judgemental comes so easy


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 16, 2011)

Is that photo of the supposed slide #1? (i.e. the one that is "suspected" they triggered, but the survivor claims he never heard?).


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## MadPatSki (Nov 16, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> oh.  so comments like "he had it coming", "stupidity", "arrogance", "he's going to kill himself" are all teachable terms.  here i thought dying would have been lesson enough to seek your own education for those considering similar interests.
> 
> since you guys were there though I can see how being  judgemental comes so easy



Agree.

He had toned down his risk taking in recent years due to his family. He took chances, chances that were taken by numerous people that day (I wouldn't have done it, but who am I to judge). Where does the dead man walking talk end? Pierre leaped off crazy cliffs a few years ago and survived. If he would have died last week on a groomer without a helmet, would someone here say..."he had it coming...dead man walking"?

People talking about avy danger, him not having taking an avy course or carrying avy gear, etc. How many people here second guessing him which have skied out-of-bounds (that would include Tuckerman) (or even in-bounds in some parts) have ever taken an avy course (not talking about reading a book or watching a DVD), but an actual avy course with certified instructor?


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## drjeff (Nov 16, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> IIRC the report indicated that Pierre and his friend "did not notice" this avalanche.  It just keeps getting weirder.....





kingdom-tele said:


> oh.  so comments like "he had it coming", "stupidity", "arrogance", "he's going to kill himself" are all teachable terms.  here i thought dying would have been lesson enough to seek your own education for those considering similar interests.
> 
> since you guys were there though I can see how being  judgemental comes so easy



If he and his friend either didn't notice or didn't care about that slide (after all it is "easy" to miss a slide that about an acre in size and a foot and a half deep or so  ), then I would think that a rational (and please do try and look at this from a rational, NOT emotional side, since emotion can very easily cloud one's judgement) person would say that "stupidity" or "arrogance" could certainly apply when trying to figure out what happend, so that a future event of similar nature won't happen


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 16, 2011)

drjeff said:


> If he and his friend either didn't notice or didn't care about that slide (after all it is "easy" to miss a slide that about an acre in size and a foot and a half deep or so  ), then I would think that a rational (and please do try and look at this from a rational, NOT emotional side, since emotion can very easily cloud one's judgement) person would say that "stupidity" or "arrogance" could certainly apply when trying to figure out what happend, so that a future event of similar nature won't happen



The write up said that they "remotely" set the first slide. It didn't catch them, so they must have been by it and it slide behind them? If they walked through the debris, then the "stupid" and "arrogant" tags may stick.

We can't Monday morning quarterback these incidents well at all because we weren't there. Didn't see anything. All we got to go on is the pics of the upside-down snowpack and reports of a bunch of slides that day because of it.

What was the weather like that day? Was it snowing and sounds were dummed down by the weather? Maybe it is possible they didn't hear/see the first slide. Who knows? We can speculate til we're blue in the face, but the only one who knows was the guy with Jamie.

Saying, "he had it coming," is poor taste. This was someone's life, husband, father, friend, etc. To say that is shameful.


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## MadPatSki (Nov 16, 2011)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Saying, "he had it coming," is poor taste. This was someone's life, husband, father, friend, etc. To say that is shameful.


Thanks for that post.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

drjeff said:


> If he and his friend either didn't notice or didn't care about that slide (after all it is "easy" to miss a slide that about an acre in size and a foot and a half deep or so  ), then I would think that a rational (and please do try and look at this from a rational, NOT emotional side, since emotion can very easily cloud one's judgement) person would say that "stupidity" or "arrogance" could certainly apply when trying to figure out what happend, *so that a future event of similar nature won't happen*



can you be more clear. which event are we talking about.  someone dying in an avalanche or someone living outside of what others consider acceptable

rationally speaking, its easy to miss a lot of things and an absurd notion that you can account for all the variables in any dynamic system, telling yourself you'd be better than anyone else is a farce


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## drjeff (Nov 16, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> can you be more clear. which event are we talking about.  someone dying in an avalanche or someone living outside of what others consider acceptable
> 
> rationally speaking, its easy to miss a lot of things and an absurd notion that you can account for all the variables in any dynamic system, telling yourself you'd be better than anyone else is a farce



Referencing future situations.  There's always risk involved in life.  However, if one can learn from past mistakes (in this case you could even say that NOT heading the warnings that the avalanche service put out regarding that day was the mistake made, since one could reasonably guess that he wasn't skiing terrain above his ability level), and not make a similar mistake in the future is important.

Look, and untracked bowl is tempting to us all.  But it's not unreasonable to think that in HIGH avalanche conditions, especially without the proper avalanche gear on oneself, that its better off to leave that untracked bowl, untracked until conditions settle.  And i'm quite sure that you won't find an alpine guide out there that would disagree with that


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Referencing future situations.  There's always risk involved in life.  However, if one can learn from past mistakes (in this case you could even say that NOT heading the warnings that the avalanche service put out regarding that day was the mistake made, since one could reasonably guess that he wasn't skiing terrain above his ability level), and not make a similar mistake in the future is important.
> 
> Look, and untracked bowl is tempting to us all.  But it's not unreasonable to think that in HIGH avalanche conditions, especially without the proper avalanche gear on oneself, that its better off to leave that untracked bowl, untracked until conditions settle.  And i'm quite sure that you won't find an alpine guide out there that would disagree with that



I'm sure I won't. I wouldn't disagree. and yet people were still skiing and not dying. oddly enough you don't see the peanut gallery throwing them under the bus, only the ONE soul that perished - odd and crass IMO

wonder if the hundreds of others who skied that day and ended with high fives and positive experiences learned anything that would prevent them from doing it again on a day that was so, as pointed out, highly dangerous,   learning has some base from accumulated experience, it would be interesting to see how many would not do it again based on having a great day skiing with conflicting objective data


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## AdironRider (Nov 16, 2011)

Hundreds of others werent high fiving and slamming beers afterwards. The mountain kicked them all out due to the high danger, and I doubt they were feeling high on life knowing someone had just died on the hill. I would argue those folks are just lucky they arent dead either, Im pretty sure they would agree. 

Quit trying to defend this guys bonehead decision making. I don't want to tour with a guy like you who keeps defending this guys actions as a simple mistake. Do you even have avalanche training, cause as of right now you look like you dont know shit and I certainly dont want to tour with you (AVI II cert here)? 

Upside down snowpack, heavy snowfall the last 24 hours, heavy wind loading, double digit temp changes last 24 hours, previous avalanche activity, including by the party in question, the list goes on. These are just some of the warning signs they chose to ignore on that day and paid the price. Tell me again how this wasnt a primo example of a cocky guy thinking he was invincible rather than an honest mistake, cause pretty much every warning sign for getting caught in an avalanche was blatantly ignored, and he didnt even have gear on to begin with. 

So just stop, noones saying this is a happy situation, but it damn well shouldnt have happened given all the information available to him on that day. That makes it a retarded situation, and not just a sad case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

who's defending his actions. I never condoned his actions. I never presumed to know every detail of his experience that day either. in addition never claimed it was a simple mistake or that it was even unlucky -  talk about how perception isn't reliable, have you even tried to read this without your own interpretation

fact is every time this happens to someone doing something a large portion of the public feels uneasy about it and turns into a shit slingin fight about "how they had it coming", like they didn't know it or recognize the potential. the knee jerk reflex to shuffle these people into an outlier category is bogus. whether your skiing avalanche terrain, flying of a cliff, racing around a track at 200 mph, defusing bombs in a war, operating on special force teams, running into a burning building, or eating a pile of shit food everyday knowing your a diabetic, your time here is marked, if slamming a dead person makes your day more satisfying it says more about you then their perceived decision making - and its sad you or anyone else claiming someone had it coming can't recognize that 

ever lost a friend to early in life from an accident?  I can assure you your 20/20 hindsight doesn't amount to a pile of shit and furthermore hearing the people point out the obvious and unchangeable is a disgrace to any persons memory. once you dislodge your head from your ass you'll recognize that

oh, and yeah, no avi training, no snow science degree, no experience in skiing anything without a thousand trees in my way, fortunately for me though decency isn't a class you should have to attend


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## AdironRider (Nov 16, 2011)

So we should just brush it off as an accident, even though there were so many warning signs and mistakes made throughout the day by the party in question. 

Ill say it again, if this was a wrong place, wrong time scenario, I could relate with you. But this wasnt that situation, it is not a hindsight is 20/20, every warning sign was loud and damn clear before he even started out the day. It was a situation that was easily avoidable at many different decision points, all of which were ignored. At that point I stop feeling "decency" and start getting pissed at bad decision making, mainly for the absolute worst situation I can think of for the loved ones left behind. But for him? Not so much when it shouldnt have happened in the first place, and not just through a bout of bad luck, but a bout of cockiness and bro brah, "anyone can go big if they stop being pussies" attitude. 

By the way thats an actual quote by Jamie Pierre, kinda gives you the mindset he was working with.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 16, 2011)

so now its NOT even an accident!

I'm astounded. keep going man. a few more days down this path and soon you'll be telling us how JP's family should have to pay the internet risk assessment team for emotional damages for his actions

I'm done. I sincerely hope the moment you realize your not the center of the world does not coincide with the loss of a loved one surrounded by people pointing all reasons they shouldn't have died


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## MadPatSki (Nov 16, 2011)

Geez AdironRider, no wonder people blocked you off on ski forums. 

Not sure how old you are, but you sound like an opinionated young kid in where everyone should agree with your view of the World. The guy that is without reproach that never screwed up in your life (skiing or in life in general). Not everything is so black and white.

For the record, I don't say that they didn't screw up bad, but I'm not going to judge and start second guessing what they did. I wasn't there, I don't have the fact and I don't know them personally. From what I heard, Jamie Pierre was a real nice guy that didn't take myself seriously, whatever, I cannot vouch for that, I never meet him.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't want to ski with you either if it can make you happy and for what it matters, I don't have a Level II, I just followed a 2-day level I course in 2008.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> I'm sure I won't. I wouldn't disagree. and yet people were still skiing and not dying. oddly enough you don't see the peanut gallery throwing them under the bus, only the ONE soul that perished - odd and crass IMO
> 
> wonder if the hundreds of others who skied that day and ended with high fives and positive experiences learned anything that would prevent them from doing it again on a day that was so, as pointed out, highly dangerous,   learning has some base from accumulated experience, it would be interesting to see how many would not do it again based on having a great day skiing with conflicting objective data


. Actually, there was one if not two serious injuries that day (broken femur and dislocated hip due to other avi's).  So it was not a great day.....


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## skiadikt (Nov 16, 2011)

maybe a thread that says RIP isn't the proper place for all the passing judgement and second guessing ...


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 17, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> . Actually, there was one if not two serious injuries that day (broken femur and dislocated hip due to other avi's).  So it was not a great day.....



guess I missed the thread passing judgement on them


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## drjeff (Nov 17, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> guess I missed the thread passing judgement on them



On that day, between Alta and Snowbird, which since they weren't open were essentially back country, with a report of high avalanche potential from the avalanche forcasters, there were 5 reported slides that were triggered by skiers/riders.  3 of those slides produced injuries that required rescue efforts (the dislocated shoulder, the broken femur, and the fatality).  The Patrol of both mountains did a sweep of the areas just after 2 PM to essentially close Alta and Snowbird to foot traffic because of the unsafe conditions.  There were a reported "hundreds" of people hiking and skiing/riding at Alta and Snowbird that day.  Not everyone had proper avalanche gear with them. Not everyone had avalanche training.  Those are the facts.  People NEED to learn from what happened last weekend, so a repeat won't happen.


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 17, 2011)

drjeff said:


> On that day, between Alta and Snowbird, which since they weren't open were essentially back country, with a report of high avalanche potential from the avalanche forcasters, there were 5 reported slides that were triggered by skiers/riders.  3 of those slides produced injuries that required rescue efforts (the dislocated shoulder, the broken femur, and the fatality).  The Patrol of both mountains did a sweep of the areas just after 2 PM to essentially close Alta and Snowbird to foot traffic because of the unsafe conditions.  There were a reported "hundreds" of people hiking and skiing/riding at Alta and Snowbird that day.  Not everyone had proper avalanche gear with them. Not everyone had avalanche training.  Those are the facts. * People NEED to learn from what happened last weekend, so a repeat won't happen.*



I can appreciate the sentiment and couldn't agree more.  However, how is this situation any different from any other example of people need to learn so it won't happen.  People know smoking is bad for them, why aren't they learning from all the people dying/suffering, etc.

I find it hard to believe that all the people skiing that day had absolutely no idea it could be hazardous - hell, every time I head into the woods it crosses my mind and I don't even have a cert in avy training

no arguement with the notion people need to better informed, and not wanting to hear about a situation like this is an admirable goal, but you really think that its not going to happen again? 

I guess, if it never snows again that is a possibilty


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## drjeff (Nov 17, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> I can appreciate the sentiment and couldn't agree more.  However, how is this situation any different from any other example of people need to learn so it won't happen.  People know smoking is bad for them, why aren't they learning from all the people dying/suffering, etc.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that all the people skiing that day had absolutely no idea it could be hazardous - hell, every time I head into the woods it crosses my mind and I don't even have a cert in avy training
> 
> ...



The problem is that nowadays there's such a "cool" factor with BC skiing, and it's also becoming more and more readily accessable by more and more people.  Many of these folks really don't look at it like its any different than skiing/riding a maintained trail, except for the lack of crowds and more untracked snow. And many of those same people seem to be more worried that they have their video camera so they can capture a youtube moment, than they are about what's the status of the snowpack/do they have their rescue gear/or even how/where to make a safe and proper boot pack up.  And that's a problem.  Something needs to be done, or else events like this will become more and more prevalent, as they have been becoming the last few seasons.

What is the best way and/or COULD and effective education process that would connect with many a BC "wanna be" skier/rider to convey what can (and does) happen if some basic safety measure aren't followed??  Who knows.  I would think that an minimum a starting point might be if all, or atleast a majority of the video producers and ski magazine editors got together and as almost a public service to their readers/viewers made a significant effort via including short clips/ads/stories about PROPER BC safety tips, and then kept repeating them issue after issue, video after video, that would be a starting point, and one that might just get a few people to atleast thinki twice about where they're thinking about skiing/riding and if atleast from an avalanche standpoint the risk level is as low as possible, that would be a plus.  Atleast then if something bad happens, the debate would only be about should that person have really atempted that line, vs. what were they thinking given the avalanche risk AND should they have attempted that line.

Like I said many posts ago, there's risk associated with essentially everything we do. But there are times when we need to take a look and see if the risk is "acceptable" (and obviously acceptable will very from person to person) and what isn't.  And part of that risk equation should include the risk to others if things go wrong


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2011)

kingdom-tele said:


> I can appreciate the sentiment and couldn't agree more.  However, how is this situation any different from any other example of people need to learn so it won't happen.



It isn't any different.  That's why people are making the comments that they are.  

Were you pissed off when many people said, "I'm not surprised," when Amy Winehouse died?

As you can imagine, I'm a huge Jerry Garcia fan.  Some of the best moments of my life were seeing that man play the guitar.  I grieved when he died, but wasn't surprised that it happened.

That's pretty much what people are saying about Jamie Pierre. He was an immensely talented individual who pushed his life to the limit and cheated death many, many times.  Eventually that caught up to him.  It's sad that he's gone, but not surprising.


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## JimG. (Nov 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> It isn't any different.  That's why people are making the comments that they are.
> 
> Were you pissed off when many people said, "I'm not surprised," when Amy Winehouse died?
> 
> ...



+1


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 17, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> It isn't any different.  That's why people are making the comments that they are.
> 
> Were you pissed off when many people said, "I'm not surprised," when Amy Winehouse died?
> 
> ...




my comments regarding Amy Winehouse are still there I'm sure. I never claimed to be surprised in either situation. My contention is with someone who thinks their standard of choice is far superior to another's, as if they had some incredible insight to the inner workings of another person at any given moment in time or situation

I applaud you for having no response to the people who bashed Jerry for his choices, maybe I need to do the same

apologies for cluttering this thread for those who care


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2011)

I was pissed at him actually.  I had tickets to all 6 nights of the closing of the Boston Garden run the upcoming fall. :lol:


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## John W (Nov 17, 2011)

I have read all of this...  I think everyone needs to take a step back and relax.  There seem to be 2 sides to this.. One hand this is a tragic event because the sport of skiing/snowboarding lost someone who loved what we all love to an extent..  But took risks many of us would not take.  Putting their own life in jeopardy.  And that seems to be how he lived........ Not just with Skiing..  And good for him... I am glad he lived his life the way he wanted. I personally have no love for it. I can agree with the Judgemental bias and the bias that says we are in no position to Judge...

The facts are we can all poke holes in what happened.  And we all have opinions.  If you don't agree with someone's opinion that is fine.  And you don't even have to respect someone else's opinion if they state it here.  But don't be surprised or offended when ideas you disagree with come up.

I have never put myself in the position he did.  And if I do I am doing my damn best to get out of it.  And based on that I expect to be on this planet for the long haul or at least until I can't control it. For myself and my family.  He didn't agree with that line of thinking so Jaime Pierre died leaving people behind who depended on him..  For that I have no love and a littel bit of anger.  But it was his life.  

Person puts their life in danger fine and it doesn't effect anyone else so be it.  In his case there were others on the hill and family to consider..  So I think his behavior was stupid and selfish.  But others may not.  Harsh... Yes.  But I didn't create the scenario.  Neither did the rest of you.  Judge, Opine, comment, but don't get mad at each other for your opinions........    

This is a great Forum.  Let's keep it that way by not getting mad at each other....


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## kingdom-tele (Nov 17, 2011)

John W said:


> But it was his life.



/thread


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## JimG. (Nov 17, 2011)

John W said:


> This is a great Forum.  Let's keep it that way by not getting mad at each other....



I'm not mad...and I wasn't trying to be judgemental.

And certainly not happy about another's misfortune.


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## 2knees (Nov 17, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> maybe a thread that says RIP isn't the proper place for all the passing judgement and second guessing ...



couldnt agree more.


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## John W (Nov 18, 2011)

Kingdom Tele - My only issue with how he lived his life is that it effected the lives of others for the worse - His children.. Other then that like I said.  Good for him.  

Jim G, I wasn't speaking about you being mad...  It was more about everyone maybe taking the tone of the conversation down a notch because it seemed to be getting a bit personal....

I like the forum, the people, and the conversations that take place here.  Just wanted to see all of it continue!!  

Hope you all have a great weekend and turkey day!!  And for those of you out in Jackson hole or close, WATCH THE SNOW PACK!!!!  Avalanches could fall... 13 new inches...


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## Nick (Nov 18, 2011)

Yeah, I agree. If it weren't for kids I wouldn't have anything against this. I would still think PERSONALLY it was insanity... but that's his choice to make, right? 

Besides, who wasn't at least entertained or left with their jaw on the floor after he hucked that 255' or whatever it was cliff... even if it was dumb it was incredible. Just like that guy that rode his motorcycle off the Arc de Triumph



That stuff is crazy but also wildly entertaining to watch, to image doing something like that.. makes my palms sweat.


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## John W (Nov 18, 2011)

He certainly was impressive..  There is a certain type that can do that sort of thing...  I am not built that way and am in AWE of people that are.  And that is part of their alure...  Like that crazy SOB Travis Pastrana - Jumping out of planes with Parachutes..  Doing the craziest tricks..  Breaking things in the process.  
Push the limits of your skillset.....  Sure...  Hucking off anything more then 4ft drop gives me the willies!!  But I might try it..  250 is something I can't comprehend..


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## John W (Nov 18, 2011)

I don't believe you can call that hucking it either....  Corbets MUST be a joke to people like him.. And to people like me its pretty much undo-able.... Impressive.


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