# Membership Dues Increase at Hermitage



## njdiver85 (Nov 1, 2017)

Just saw this article in the Deerfield Valley News . . .

Club members see one-time dues “adjustment”
by Mike Eldred


WILMINGTON- Last week Hermitage Club President James Barnes announced a plan to raise funding for vendor debt repayment, property tax payments, and operations through what is being called a one-time membership dues adjustment.

The membership charge was imposed after an equity and convertible debt offering failed to raise the minimum of $5 million. “We believe imposing a one-time 2017 dues adjustment of $10,000 on all membership classes across the board will take care of our short-term and entire season cash needs,” Barnes told members in a conference call. “We’ve discussed this with members and have significant support.”

Barnes said the $10,000, plus tax, charge would be due immediately, and would affect about 550 of the club’s 700 members and raise an additional $5.5 million. Trial members or those in their first year of membership would be excluded.

Club officials say the one-time charge is necessary after two setbacks, including a poor 2015 winter season that suppressed membership sales and stalled real estate construction while the club sought a master plan permit from the state. They also say they’ve spent $6.9 million on capital improvements to enhance the “member experience,” including the construction of a mid-mountain cabin, renovations to the clubhouse, and expansion of the child care program. Barnes said the club sold only 100 memberships during the winter of 2015, compared to 215 the year before.

In calling the charge an “adjustment,” Hermitage Club officials point out that membership dues have been kept “artificially low” thanks to subsidy from real estate sales.

“We’ve spent a lot on improvements to members’ experience, but dues have been kept artificially low for a long time,” said club spokesperson Meridith Dennes. “Members have come to expect and enjoy a certain level of service from employees and vendors, and that kind of experience comes with a price.”

Dennes said the “break even” point, at which annual membership dues will fully fund club operations, is about 1,000 members.

Barnes told members a portion of the fee would be used to pay off dozens of liens filed on club properties by vendors and contractors, and establish a “vendor management program.” The fee would also be used to pay property taxes due in Wilmington and Dover. The Hermitage missed its August property tax payment in Wilmington, and Dover is poised to take several Hermitage Club-owned properties to tax sale.

“That will leave $2.5 million in reserve, which gives us plenty of cash to get through the season,” Barnes told members.

On Tuesday, Barnes announced that the Hermitage Club plans to open for skiing over Thanksgiving weekend. This year the club has access to 40 million gallons more snowmaking water than previous years, after a water withdrawal agreement with Mount Snow expired when their West Lake reservoir came on line. According to a Hermitage release, the club aims to get their Last Chance trail opened first, and will need at least 36 hours of temperatures below 25 degrees and 3.5 million gallons of water to pull it off.

“During each production window, about 50 snowguns will be operated to produce the required 20 acre/feet of snow,” according to Hermitage officials. “Early season snowmaking costs are about $800-$1,000 per acre/foot. This cost goes down, the colder it gets. It should cost about $25,000 to get one trail and the base area covered up, groomed out, and ready to ski.”

Barnes says the funding will also position the club to start their process of recapitalization. He says the club has a high equity to debt ratio, and plans to use that equity to raise $50 million to $60 million in funding for real estate development and operating capital.

“Real estate right now is 100% sold out,” Barnes said Tuesday. “We have the next wave of 93 units in the permit process now. That includes townhomes, single family homes, and villas.”

Despite more than doubling this year’s membership dues (dues for 2017 without the “adjustment” were $9,500), Barnes says most members have supported, or at least accepted the additional fee. “Nobody likes a price increase, but members are quite aware that dues have been subsidized for the last six years. Either it gets subsidized by real estate sales, or it needs to come out of the membership. It’s the only two places you can go with that.”

But some members may not be amenable to doubling their dues. In an email to club members on Wednesday, Barnes responded to rumors that some members were considering legal action over the developments, calling for discussion and compromise.

“Any movement toward legal action, whether litigation, receivership or otherwise, will have the effect of destroying not only the financial investments made by so many of the club’s members, but also threatens the club’s ability to operate this winter season.  Already, employees, having heard rumors of legal actions, are becoming increasingly concerned, may leave the club for other employment opportunities, and thus directly imperil the club’s operational viability. In turn, the negative impact on the club’s reputation will undoubtedly depress the value of real estate, causing real harm not just to the club’s owners and investors, but to those members of the club that own real estate both on and near the club.”

Read more: Deerfield Valley News - Club members see one time dues adjustment


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 1, 2017)

what a dumb place to spend that sort of money


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## SkiFanE (Nov 1, 2017)

I think Manafort is a member. He spent $32k on his gear :-D


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## WWF-VT (Nov 1, 2017)

Looks like friends of drjeff are gonna be writing some big checks


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## ss20 (Nov 1, 2017)

Lot's of interesting numbers here...



> “During each production window, about 50 snowguns will be operated to produce the required 20 acre/feet of snow,” according to Hermitage officials. “Early season snowmaking costs are about $800-$1,000 per acre/foot. This cost goes down, the colder it gets. It should cost about $25,000 to get one trail and the base area covered up, groomed out, and ready to ski.”



$25,000 for a 1,500 vert foot trail.  Times that by X number of trails at your local hill and that's why this sport costs so much.


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## benski (Nov 1, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> I think Manafort is a member. He spent $32k on his gear :-D



He has to impress Putin :flag::uzi:


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## urungus (Nov 1, 2017)

Anyone skied there?  Any steeps?  I’ve pondered getting a room at the hotel so I’d be allowed to check the slopes out.  But afraid everyone on the hill will be snooty investment bankers / Ted Knight in Caddyshack.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2017)

I had dinner last week with a member. He was not too optimistic about the club's financial health.  Now I see why.


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## heiusa (Nov 1, 2017)

I was fortunate to be invited as a guest a few years ago.  The snow making and grooming were fantastic, and the lifts are well maintained, with zero lift lines.

The unfortunate part is that it is a small mountain with mainly blue runs, it is right next to Mt. Snow and has similar type runs.


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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2017)

Beginning of the end.


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## drjeff (Nov 1, 2017)

I took one of the members and his son to the Patriots game last Sunday and asked him about this article that was published last Friday.

He said that he has concerns about if the members will or will not go along with this. He also feels that unless some of the members realize how much things were being subsidized via real estate sales the last few years that this will face stiff resistance. The permitting hold ups via violations cited a few years ago have effected the ability to keep the real estate development moving forward at the planned pace and that current lull in offering planned, but not started development phases put a dent in the cash flow. 

He also gets the impression that Jim Barnes's cash liquidity isn't quite as robust as people think.

His feeling is that one of the larger level member investors, and they have sold a few big $$ equity board of directors level memberships, will float a loan to the club until they clear the hurdle and start the next phases of housing development....

Plenty of ego's in play here....

And as my friend jokingly said, he thinks the biggest change one will see at the Hermitage this year is that at the clubhouse bar, they'll sell more of the MacCallan 12yr old scotch instead of the 18yr old offering!! ;-)

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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2017)

If they knew they were $3M short on obligations and need an additional $2.5M to fund operations this year, then why in the heck did they spend $6.9M in capital improvements?

Looking back, why did they buy the fancy bubble six pack that probably cost $6M+ when memberships weren't selling as rapidly as expected and real estate permitting was slow?

These are some pretty major management mistakes.  If I were a property owner / member, I'd question how realistic and well planned out the membership figures are that promise the club to be self sustaining.  Might be time for the HOA to consider a vote of no confidence and look for new leadership to move the club forward.  

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## Glenn (Nov 2, 2017)

We get the Deerfield Valley News at our weekend place. It's been interesting to read the letters that have come in from some of the locals regarding the situation there. Some are upset about the late taxes, some say let it slide, it's business coming to the area. 

It's not a huge a hill. But no liftlines or crowds is certainly appealing. There is a cost associated with that however.


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## Newpylong (Nov 2, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> If they knew they were $3M short on obligations and need an additional $2.5M to fund operations this year, then why in the heck did they spend $6.9M in capital improvements?
> 
> Looking back, why did they buy the fancy bubble six pack that probably cost $6M+ when memberships weren't selling as rapidly as expected and real estate permitting was slow?
> 
> ...



Because memberships aren't going to sell to to ride the Barnstormer triple at those prices.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2017)

Well, you could buy a season pass to Wildcat, Burke or Pico if you are looking for good sized hills with few crowds and lift lines. 

You'd likely need to supply your own bottle of Mac 18 though. 

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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> If they knew they were $3M short on obligations and need an additional $2.5M to fund operations this year, then why in the heck did they spend $6.9M in capital improvements?
> 
> Looking back, why did they buy the fancy bubble six pack that probably cost $6M+ when memberships weren't selling as rapidly as expected and real estate permitting was slow?
> 
> ...



The bubble six decision is very easy to explain, conceptually atleast. Mount Snow, which is where a bulk of the Hermitage's members came from, and still ski at Mount Snow when the Hermitage isn't open, had the Bluebird in place already, and many of their early to join members stated that they liked , and wanted something equivalent at their club. The six vs 4 decision was based on the number of members who felt that given the size of their families, both immediate and extended, that the 6 pack would be better.....


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## Jully (Nov 2, 2017)

Anyone know how much more expensive a heated bubble six pack is versus a heated bubble HSQ? I feel like the heated and the bubble and the high speed had to be done for the club in order to make the high dues worth it. So the question really just comes down to whether or not the 6 was excessive. The point about the family size is a good one too.


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2017)

Jully said:


> Anyone know how much more expensive a heated bubble six pack is versus a heated bubble HSQ? I feel like the heated and the bubble and the high speed had to be done for the club in order to make the high dues worth it. So the question really just comes down to whether or not the 6 was excessive. The point about the family size is a good one too.



Do rich people have more kids then us low-lifes?


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## SkiFanE (Nov 2, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Do rich people have more kids then us low-lifes?



Admittedly I'm out of the loop on this resort - didn't even realize it was in VT. So basically people will pay a fortune for amazing intermediate skiing away from Joeys and Massholes  

Gives me immense pleasure to know they suck at skiing, but wish they didn't and redeem themselves with $50 glasses of apres ski scotch.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2017)

drjeff said:


> The bubble six decision is very easy to explain, conceptually atleast. Mount Snow, which is where a bulk of the Hermitage's members came from, and still ski at Mount Snow when the Hermitage isn't open, had the Bluebird in place already, and many of their early to join members stated that they liked , and wanted something equivalent at their club. The six vs 4 decision was based on the number of members who felt that given the size of their families, both immediate and extended, that the 6 pack would be better.....


Many of those same members also probably have been to Snowbird and liked the Tram.  Just seems like they bought something they couldn't afford.  

But more than that it's that in the very same letter that they state they need $5.5 million, they say they spent $6.9 million.  Spend what you can afford!  They probably should have waited for more homes and memberships to sell before making those improvements.

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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2017)

The rich and their toys.

A first world issue I could not care any less about.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2017)

There seems to be some schadenfreude going on here.  At the end of the day these are skiers and this is a ski area.  I don't like to see skiers lose money and I don't like to see ski areas close.  The health of our hobby and how skiers are treated is more important to me than one's financial status.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> There seems to be some schadenfreude going on here.  At the end of the day these are skiers and this is a ski area.  I don't like to see skiers lose money and I don't like to see ski areas close.  The health of our hobby and how skiers are treated is more important to me than one's financial status.



Well said.

And in addition, these skiers are people too that are passionate about the sport that we all here on AZ love.  The majority of the members of the Hermitage Club that I know and/or have met are very nice people, and not stuck on themselves at all.  Many of them are parents and/or grandparents who not only like skiing themselves but also watching their kids and/or grand kids enjoy the sport along side of them.  Can't really fault anyone who loves the sport for wanting to do that.

Additionally, just like at any ski area, there are some GOOD skiers (especially masters racers) who are members at the Hermitage, so it's not just all casual beginners.

Last thing, without a doubt, the emergence of the Hermitage Club has been a big asset to the entire Deerfield Valley region of Southern VT, especially since it's rise basically started around the time that the region was devastated by the flooding from Tropical Storm Irene a bit over 6yrs ago.  The economic boost that not just development on Club property, but also from associated development in the area by club members helped bring back a geographic area economically where the post Irene damage may very well have been more than some businesses could have survived had there not been the added positive effect from the Hermitage Club.

Lastly, no, I am not a member, never been a member, and not thinking about joining there. Weather and club operational logistics figured out, about as much skin in the Hermitage game that I have is apparently my kids will both have a race there this ski season, so I'll likely be giving them about $80 in race fees this season to "help" put a dent in their financial peril! ;-) :lol:


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> There seems to be some schadenfreude going on here.  At the end of the day these are skiers and this is a ski area.  I don't like to see skiers lose money and I don't like to see ski areas close.  The health of our hobby and how skiers are treated is more important to me than one's financial status.



I actually had to look that word up...but now that I know what it means, I really don't think there was much of it in this thread. There may have been a couple posts like that, but most people were more questioning some of the management decisions that brought them to this point. They weren't celebrating the fact that they're in trouble though.


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## gregnye (Nov 2, 2017)

The best thing that could happen is if they open this to the public. Having a rich-only resort is short-sighted anyway. What happens when the super-rich generation dies off? Most millennials (I'm one of them) are too concerned with trying to buy a house and avocado toast ;-)--the last thing we're gonna do is buy a membership to an exclusive ski club if we've never skied before.

The ski resort isn't even that far up in vermont. It's really close to numerous colleges in Mass. It would be a perfect alternative to mount snow. Mt. Snow has really captured the college and young adult demographic. Those people are the ones skiing in the long run.

This is why a lot of the young people I know have gotten in to alpine touring. Most are tired of being the "renting generation" and want to buy stuff once rather than another monthly payment. Once you've got the gear, climbing the mountain yourself is cheaper!!


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 2, 2017)

For those who may not remember, the Hermitage at Haystack Mountain, used to operate as Haystack Mountain-- last owned by Mount Snow, but only open on weekends towards the end of Mt. Slow's ownership.  Its a great little mountain, with some fun trails, and the Hermitage members are very lucky to have it.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

The biggest logistical issue to some form of opening the area to the public, would be the base lodge issue. 

Yes, they have a BIG, GORGEOUS lodge at the base of their 6 pack. That is way more of a members only clubhouse, than a base lodge. And the members enjoy their clubhouse exclusivity, which is one of the things they pay the $$ for.

To put it in perspective about the clubhouse, the alpine racers from the Mount Snow Academy (a private ski and snowboard academy/winter term boarding school that is a separate entity from the alpine competition and snowboard competition programs that Mount Snow runs) trains at the Hermitage on days when the Hermitage is open. When their athletes are there, unless the athlete's parent is a member of the Hermitage, they athletes and coaches aren't allowed to use the clubhouse, they have to use a smallish lunch room down at the Hermitage Inn (which is a lift ride and a flat run back to/from the main base area of the Hermitage Club).

Trying to figure out how to handle the general public would be an issue for them.

My hunch, is that there's some ego power play going on here, and that ultimately the membership in one way or another will fund the needed finances for the club to keep it going.  There is, as the article alluded to, a bunch of real estate development waiting to come on the market for members soon as well as the actual development of their base area hotel/condos which will provide a bunch of capital to the club.

Additionally, one also has to remember that the amount of money that the club is looking to asses members, while not a small amount, for many members there isn't a huge amount either, and many people who are members of various clubs and/or homeowners associations from time to time do find that special assessments for various projects aren't that uncommon.  Heck, where my condo at Mount Snow is, our homeowners association is looking at an assessment 2 to potentially 3 times larger than what the Hermitage's proposed assessment is to cover the fact that the mainly original 30+ year old wood siding that has been scraped and painted numerous times over the last 30 years needs to be replaced on all 200+ units and our clubhouse!!  While it sucks to get hit with the assessment, you often come to the realization after a while that it needs to be done to continue enjoying something that you liked enough to pay a bunch of money to start doing in the first place....


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## WWF-VT (Nov 2, 2017)

Heated bubble six pack....The Hermitage Club deserves their financial fate.  This place looks like is a big real estate development that happens to have skiing as its biggest operating expense.


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## SkiFanE (Nov 2, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> There seems to be some schadenfreude going on here.  At the end of the day these are skiers and this is a ski area.  I don't like to see skiers lose money and I don't like to see ski areas close.  The health of our hobby and how skiers are treated is more important to me than one's financial status.



I'm sure this was directed at me.  I don't like to see skiers lose $ either - but "skiers" that lose thousands and thousands of dollars on a piss poor investment?   This is a country club, not a ski area.  I really have zero sympathy at all - but I don't wish them badly either.  Bad investments happen to good people all the time.  I'm a skier who plunked $ down on a ski place to ski. If it gains value, great, if it loses, so what - I can still ski from there.  That's the attitude you need before you ever plan to buy in ski country.


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## ss20 (Nov 2, 2017)

Haystack will only survive as a private mountain.  They've always struggled.  They have never been able to stay afloat being in the shadow of Mount Snow.  That's not due to management, or infrastructure, or anything you could possibly update- it's because it's a tiny hill.

Many have tried, many have failed.  I don't think the Hermitage is on the verge of "failure" but ten years down the road I bet this cycle continues.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2017)

Looks like the same basic thing as this article:

https://vtdigger.org/2017/10/20/hermitage-club-taps-members-pay-off-debt/#.WftibWhSy70


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2017)

Jeff, 

The condo analogy really doesn't work here.  There's some similarities, but it's not the same.  I own a condo and have gone through assessment fees. Those are about deferred maintenance and end of life scenarios of physical assets that are communally enjoyed.  Those are known and accepted realities of condo ownership.

That's a lot different than dumping $6.9M on new toys and saying whoops, we can't pay our taxes or vendors and BTW we don't have cash reserves to operate.  That's gross mismanagement.  



As for what the experience of Hermitage is and the finances of those who enjoy it?  Makes no difference to me. They are skiers and that's cool by me.  

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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2017)

drjeff said:


> There is, as the article alluded to, a bunch of real estate development waiting to come on the market for members soon as well as the actual development of their base area hotel/condos which will provide a bunch of capital to the club.



can hotel guests and the lowly condo users ski at the ski area and use the lodge? If not why stay there?


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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> I'm sure this was directed at me.  I don't like to see skiers lose $ either - but "skiers" that lose thousands and thousands of dollars on a piss poor investment?



Or me. 

A little place like Haystack has no need for a bubble 6 pack is all I'm saying. Especially if it is to remain private. What could the justification possibly be? 

Way overdone.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2017)

Family of six gets to ride the lift together is the only justification. It obviously isn't needed capacity

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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> can hotel guests and the lowly condo users ski at the ski area and use the lodge? If not why stay there?


As I recall, and it has been about 2 years since I read the exact details in the press release, the "hotel" is much more like an ASC style fractional ownership condo intended for members use, than an actual for the general public hotel. In it's initial presale "event" if I recall correctly, the members bought out all of the available units in one evening. 

Pretty sure that the "hotel" is mainly intended for members and their guests, and not sure if any non members or guests staying there were going to have ski access or not.  My recall may not be 100% accurate on that. And things may have, or might in the future if it's built, change

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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Or me.
> 
> A little place like Haystack has no need for a bubble 6 pack is all I'm saying. Especially if it is to remain private. What could the justification possibly be?
> 
> Way overdone.


As I said before, they put a bubble 6 in, which they acknowledge is way more capacity than they need, because their members wanted it, and it's a selling point as well. As I recall, one of their ads talked about the ability to get 35 runs in on any given day. 6 minute lift rides with probably not more than a 2 to 4 chair wait on a holiday weekend Saturday certainly has some appeal to those willing to pony up the coin to do so....

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## Quietman (Nov 2, 2017)

Crotched has maybe a 10-15 chair wait on the busiest holidays for the rocket, and the cost is astronomically lower.  I agree that the demographics are in completely different universes. 

I have no interest in Haystack, as it so far out of my league. However, it is interesting to see what the top 5% will pony up to ski/golf.


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## mbedle (Nov 3, 2017)

Haystack will always be a private ski area. When it was sold by Mount Snow, one condition on the sale was it could never be open to the public. The agreement only allows up to 250 tickets to be sold to local residents per day, which I don't think Hermitage every uses.


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## mriceyman (Nov 3, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Haystack will always be a private ski area. When it was sold by Mount Snow, one condition on the sale was it could never be open to the public. The agreement only allows up to 250 tickets to be sold to local residents per day, which I don't think Hermitage every uses.



If they sold 250 a day at $40 a pop theres the 10k they assessed their members 


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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Haystack will always be a private ski area. When it was sold by Mount Snow, one condition on the sale was it could never be open to the public. The agreement only allows up to 250 tickets to be sold to local residents per day, which I don't think Hermitage every uses.



I think I recall that that condition, just like the rights that Mount Snow had to draw water from the Hermitage's rather quick to refill pond, had something like a 10yr term on that clause. If the clause was from the original sale of Haystack to the developer who bought it prior to Jim Barnes buying it, then that 10yr term, if not up already, is very close....


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## SkiFanE (Nov 3, 2017)

drjeff said:


> I think I recall that that condition, just like the rights that Mount Snow had to draw water from the Hermitage's rather quick to refill pond, had something like a 10yr term on that clause. If the clause was from the original sale of Haystack to the developer who bought it prior to Jim Barnes buying it, then that 10yr term, if not up already, is very close....



i was wondering how a sale could have a clause like that - sounded more like a lease.  One does have a right to do what they like with their property, within the laws, so seemed implausible for a permanent deed restriction


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## x10003q (Nov 3, 2017)

ThinkSnow said:


> For those who may not remember, the Hermitage at Haystack Mountain, used to operate as Haystack Mountain-- last owned by Mount Snow, but only open on weekends towards the end of Mt. Slow's ownership.  Its a great little mountain, with some fun trails, and the Hermitage members are very lucky to have it.



Haystack was and is a bore with less than 1200 foot vertical on the 6 pack. The only enticements are the empty trails and keeping the unwashed masses of regular people off the trails and out of the lodges.

As we see by this current $10k assessment, financing and planning are shaky at best. Installing a $7.3 million six pack when a HSQ would have been fine was pure hubris. No matter how you package "The Hermitage", it is still a ski area and is subject to all the ski area financing problems, especially when you are relying on the next real estate sale to move forward. 

Barnes claims that there are 664 members, so if they all hand him $10k, he will have an infusion of $6.64 million.


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 3, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> If they sold 250 a day at $40 a pop theres the 10k they assessed their members
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


That's what they charge each member. Not the total.

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## Jully (Nov 3, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> If they sold 250 a day at $40 a pop theres the 10k they assessed their members
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone





Hawkshot99 said:


> That's what they charge each member. Not the total.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



So if they sell 250 tickets a day at $40 a piece for a little over 6 years, they would raise the same amount of money Hermitage will likely raise in a matter of months. If you upped it to a more expensive $80 or $100 per day, we are still talking multiple years to raise that cash. Opening to the public I don't think solves their problem assuming they open to the public in a semi-exclusive way (like limiting ticket sales).

Any public opening that is not exclusive eliminates why everyone signed up for the club in the first place (it certainly wasn't for the terrain at Haystack). They are truly between a rock and a hard place over there.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2017)

Quietman said:


> I have no interest in Haystack, as it so far out of my league. However, *it is interesting to see what the top 5% will pony up to ski/golf.*



It's more interesting to see what they pony up to join a place and then almost never go there, which is often the case.  My brother used to work for a pretty exclusive golf course in central Florida, and I was shocked to learn what % of the people pay to join it, but golf there relatively rarely.



mriceyman said:


> *If they sold 250 a day at $40 a pop theres the 10k they assessed their members*



Then you're eliminating a big part of the draw / market demo they're going for, the snooty new money crowd.


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## snoseek (Nov 3, 2017)

Moving forward I feel like private clubs are on a slow but steady decline here in the U.S. and while the best of the best will remain its only a matter of time for most of them. This is coming from someone that has worked several private clubs in the past couple decades and could see an overall noticeable change so got out. genX and millennials just aren't all that interested like boomers were and the disposable income just isn't there for as many. Haystack isn't a mountain that sets itself apart enough. Maybe if it was somewhere further north that is truly compelling as a skier/boarder that would change things.

It would be a nice little addition to mountain snows acres as it was before but never lived to its potential. Either way private or not I just assume the place remain open as vacant ski areas sorta blow.


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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2017)

x10003q said:


> Barnes claims that there are 664 members, so if they all hand him $10k, he will have an infusion of $6.64 million.



It also stated in the article that not all membership classes were subject to the assessment.  They sold some 1 yr trial memberships last spring that aren't subject to the assessment, as well as from what my member friend told me last weekend that some of the what in essence are "buy a seat on the board of directors" memberships aren't subject to the assessment either.  My friend also wasn't sure if those relatively new members, who paid a much higher initial fee within the last year, were or weren't going to be subject to the assessment.  That likely accounts for the difference in the projected capital raised


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## x10003q (Nov 3, 2017)

drjeff said:


> It also stated in the article that not all membership classes were subject to the assessment.  They sold some 1 yr trial memberships last spring that aren't subject to the assessment, as well as from what my member friend told me last weekend that some of the what in essence are "buy a seat on the board of directors" memberships aren't subject to the assessment either.  My friend also wasn't sure if those relatively new members, who paid a much higher initial fee within the last year, were or weren't going to be subject to the assessment.  That likely accounts for the difference in the projected capital raised



Thanks for the clarification. I hope it works. You never want to see ski areas close. I have had some fun days at Haystack, but I could never make it my primary weekend area. Having Mt Snow down the road helps fulfill the need for some bigger skiing and it also will maintain RE values if the place does close.


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## JimG. (Nov 3, 2017)

drjeff said:


> As I said before, they put a bubble 6 in, which they acknowledge is way more capacity than they need, because their members wanted it, and it's a selling point as well. As I recall, one of their ads talked about the ability to get 35 runs in on any given day. 6 minute lift rides with probably not more than a 2 to 4 chair wait on a holiday weekend Saturday certainly has some appeal to those willing to pony up the coin to do so....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Then nobody should have any issues ponying up $10,000 each for the current $5 million shortfall.

If that is the case, this is really a non-issue.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2017)

I think that the best idea is to have a club like Bretton Woods has.  There is so much less risk going that route.  Yes, the trails are crowded, but you get a private lodge and line skipping privileges.


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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that the best idea is to have a club like Bretton Woods has.  There is so much less risk going that route.  Yes, the trails are crowded, but you get a private lodge and line skipping privileges.


Stratton has the same type of thing near the gondola base... 

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## Jully (Nov 4, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Stratton has the same type of thing near the gondola base...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Anything ever happen at Mt. Snow with using the Quad as an exclusive members' only lift?


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## mriceyman (Nov 5, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> That's what they charge each member. Not the total.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



I was saying if they did that each day throughout the winter whAt it could add up to


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## drjeff (Nov 5, 2017)

Jully said:


> Anything ever happen at Mt. Snow with using the Quad as an exclusive members' only lift?


As far as I know, that idea never made it past the potential idea stage, since if I recall the time it got brought up at a passholders meeting, paying extra to ride the grand summit out in the cold and wind, even with little to no lines, just wasn't going to cut it over the comfort of the Bluebird.

In addition, on busy days, having the extra capacity of the Grand Summit out of the base area is needed for sure!

The closest potential idea that I could possibly see happening at some point in the future if/when they do a wholesale redevelopment of the main and Sundance base areas, is in the master plan, there is some reference to a members only club/ lodge. Who knows if it will ever happen....

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## jaytrem (Nov 5, 2017)

Yeah, I seem to recall the idea being universally bashed on the passholders forum.


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## Euler (Nov 5, 2017)

this


deadheadskier said:


> Jeff,
> 
> 
> That's a lot different than dumping $6.9M on new toys and saying whoops, we can't pay our taxes or vendors and BTW we don't have cash reserves to operate.  That's gross mismanagement.


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## mikec142 (Nov 6, 2017)

If you are shelling out $ to join a private club, you are going to have certain expectations of services and amenities.  Its a chicken or the egg thing.  Which comes first the high end infrastructure or the members?

One can reasonably argue, they shouldn't spend more than they have.  But that's a cash flow thing and from what I gather, the spending was done with the idea of increasing cash flow.  Seems like that process has been slower than anticipated.  I'm sure they didn't go into this with the hopes of running into cash flow issues.

I hope that they are successful.


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## Jully (Nov 6, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> If you are shelling out $ to join a private club, you are going to have certain expectations of services and amenities.  Its a chicken or the egg thing.  Which comes first the high end infrastructure or the members?
> 
> One can reasonably argue, they shouldn't spend more than they have.  But that's a cash flow thing and from what I gather, the spending was done with the idea of increasing cash flow.  Seems like that process has been slower than anticipated.  I'm sure they didn't go into this with the hopes of running into cash flow issues.
> 
> I hope that they are successful.



Agree with you here. I'm honestly surprised Barnes got people to sign up WITHOUT a high speed lift for the first few years!


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2017)

This thread has me pondering just what the size of the, _"east coast, rich, but not very serious skier" _market it.


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## Jully (Nov 6, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This thread has me pondering just what the size of the, _"east coast, rich, but not very serious skier" _market it.



Seems to be decently sized if Hermitage has over 600 members. I doubt they have a particularly high piece of the market share. 

A good number probably just go out west once a year though.


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## mikec142 (Nov 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Seems to be decently sized if Hermitage has over 600 members. I doubt they have a particularly high piece of the market share.
> 
> A good number probably just go out west once a year though.



I would think the target market is families and especially multi-generational families.  It's probably a nice feeling to be able to have your kids ski on their own (and with friends they make at "the club") with fewer worries than at a larger public ski area.  It's probably a nice feeling to know that the lifties and the ski patrol know your kid by name.  

My parents don't ski, but I'm 47 years old with teenage skiers.  It's my fondest wish that I will be able to ski with my grand kids and that could be easier in this type of environment.  

The target market is not the hardcore, aggressive skier.  If you're constantly looking for a challenge, you're not going to become a member.  

My $.02 which is probably worth less than that.


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## Glenn (Nov 7, 2017)

I believe it's not just all skiing there. I want to say they have direct access to the VAST trails(snowmobiling). I want to say snowmobiling is second to skiing in terms of winter tourist dollars for VT.


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## The Sneak (Nov 7, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> I would think the target market is families and especially multi-generational families.  It's probably a nice feeling to be able to have your kids ski on their own (and with friends they make at "the club") with fewer worries than at a larger public ski area.  It's probably a nice feeling to know that the lifties and the ski patrol know your kid by name.
> 
> My parents don't ski, but I'm 47 years old with teenage skiers.  It's my fondest wish that I will be able to ski with my grand kids and that could be easier in this type of environment.
> 
> ...




Agree 100%. I'm 39, decidedly not wealthy, and childless (that I know of)....but I definitely understand the appeal of Hermitage. Having a home there, access to all the amenities, and the social aspects...it's really not that different than a yacht club or a secluded vacation area that families spend their summers at every year (examples here in southern New England: Nonquitt, Green Hill, Watch Hill, Quonnie, MV etc). Sure, not 100% the same, but I can tell you that if I were 'in the manner born'...I'd be all over Hermitage.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 7, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> I would think the target market is families and especially multi-generational families.  I*t's probably a nice feeling to be able to have your kids ski on their own* (and with friends they make at "the club")* with fewer worries than at a larger public ski area.  It's probably a nice feeling to know that the lifties and the ski patrol know your kid by name.  *



I'm sure that's all true, but there are small places just like what you describe above where you dont need to spend thousands and thousands on membership.   Mad River Glen, Plattekill, etc.....   Heck, even Smuggler's Notch is like that and it's a "bigger" area.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm sure that's all true, but there are small places just like what you describe above where you dont need to spend thousands and thousands on membership.   Mad River Glen, Plattekill, etc.....   Heck, even Smuggler's Notch is like that and it's a "bigger" area.



But then the rich folk would have to stand in line with the un-washed masses...


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## Jcb890 (Nov 7, 2017)

_We handled our money poorly and shockingly sold less memberships than anticipated in a bad winter (obviously), but figured 'Fuck it, YOLO', let's keep spending, these yuppies have the money to dump into this to keep it going._


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## ironhippy (Nov 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm sure that's all true, but there are small places just like what you describe above where you dont need to spend thousands and thousands on membership.   Mad River Glen, Plattekill, etc.....   Heck, even Smuggler's Notch is like that and it's a "bigger" area.



my local hill is like that and we rarely have lift lines worth worrying about

However we have less than a 1000 feet of vertical, but we rip every inch of it!


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## SkiFanE (Nov 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm sure that's all true, but there are small places just like what you describe above where you dont need to spend thousands and thousands on membership.   Mad River Glen, Plattekill, etc.....   Heck, even Smuggler's Notch is like that and it's a "bigger" area.



i feel that way at SR. I joke with my now 12yo that he can't get away with anything - always someone he knows will be watching. Between his folks friend and older siblings friends (one now an instructor) - and being passholders since before he was born - The place really doesn't feel "big". Can't wait for the grandkids - we have and will make more space if needed   You don't need a private club - save that $ for the grandkids college.


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## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> i feel that way at SR. I joke with my now 12yo that he can't get away with anything - always someone he knows will be watching. Between his folks friend and older siblings friends (one now an instructor) - and being passholders since before he was born - The place really doesn't feel "big". Can't wait for the grandkids - we have and will make more space if needed   You don't need a private club - save that $ for the grandkids college.



Or, if you have that kind of money  to burn imagine the good you could do the world by dedicating some of it and your time to charitable causes?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 8, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> Or, if you have that kind of money  to burn imagine the good you could do the world by dedicating some of it and your time to charitable causes?



Who says that they don't?  The top 1% provides 33% of all charitable donations.


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## Higgl (Nov 8, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Who says that they don't?  The top 1% provides 33% of all charitable donations.



Considering they own ~40% of all the wealth... that is really not impressive at all. Its good and awesome that they are donating large sums to charity, but when taken in the context of how much they have to begin with... they're donating the same, or even a little less proportionally.

I'm just glad the rich who want to participate in something like Hermitage aren't the most serious skiers! Imagine if a mountain like Stowe or Sugarbush went private instead of Haystack...


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## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Who says that they don't?  The top 1% provides 33% of all charitable donations.



I suppose I was suggesting doing that instead of buying/building excessive giant homes that use valuable natural resources at the expense of many in third world countries.


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## Smellytele (Nov 8, 2017)

oh no...


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## Whitey (Nov 8, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> oh no...



I think we should add a controversial comment about global warming to this thread too and then watch go completely off the rails.   

Maybe also add a comment about how "Trump would love Hermitage" too and then watch the thread go full Chernobyl level melt down. . . 

Or we could just comment on skiing and ski areas.


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## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2017)

Nah, it’s not Trump and his supporters that find this place attractive, it’s the Oprah Winfrey loving liberals from New Jersey.


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## JimG. (Nov 8, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> Nah, it’s not Trump and his supporters that find this place attractive, it’s the Oprah Winfrey loving liberals from New Jersey.



I always thought they wound up in places like Telluride.


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## Domeskier (Nov 8, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> I suppose I was suggesting doing that instead of buying/building excessive giant homes that use valuable natural resources at the expense of many in third world countries.



I hear a lot of your Hollywood superstars plan trees to offset the size of their homes and the exhaust from their jet planes.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 8, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Who says that they don't? * The top 1% provides 33% of all charitable donations.*





Higgl said:


> *Considering they own ~40% of all the wealth... that is really not impressive at all.*



Must be nice being so generous with other people's money.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 8, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> I hear *a lot of your Hollywood superstars plan trees to offset the size of their homes and the exhaust from their jet planes.*



Carbon offsets.  That's one of the douchebaggiset' things ever.


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## drjeff (Nov 25, 2017)

Confirmed to me today by a member-friend, after a rumor I heard.

ABC is shooting some of the upcoming season of their reality dating show, The Bachelor, on the grounds of the Hermitage now.....

"Free" promo for the club? An infusion of some cash for the club? A chance to get some of the members on TV? Who knows....

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## WWF-VT (Nov 25, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Confirmed to me today by a member-friend, after a rumor I heard.
> 
> ABC is shooting some of the upcoming season of their reality dating show, The Bachelor, on the grounds of the Hermitage now.....
> 
> ...



no one cares


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## drjeff (Nov 25, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> no one cares


Personally, I find it a bit comical on many levels.... But totally fits what some, but definitely not all, of their members probably want..... 

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## Smellytele (Nov 26, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Personally, I find it a bit comical on many levels.... But totally fits what some, but definitely not all, of their members probably want.....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



It surprises me that members would want that. Kind of makes you wonder about the members even more...


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## FBGM (Nov 26, 2017)

Oh man this the hot shit bro. I hope we get some nj trash fight nip slips. Class that club up a bit.


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## Jcb890 (Nov 27, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> It surprises me that members would want that. Kind of makes you wonder about the members even more...


I find it a bit ridiculous, but par for the course and not very surprising to be honest.  These are people paying tends of thousands of dollars to basically be part of a country club for skiing/snowboarding... many of these people care about the pomp and circumstance.  If they didn't, they wouldn't bother with Hermitage Club.


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## Jully (Nov 27, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I find it a bit ridiculous, but par for the course and not very surprising to be honest.  These are people paying tends of thousands of dollars to basically be part of a country club for skiing/snowboarding... many of these people care about the pomp and circumstance.  If they didn't, they wouldn't bother with Hermitage Club.



I really do wonder how many care that much about pomp and status. Many country club members are in it for the status for sure, but others just view it as a good golf course / facilities. If money is no object, its better to play on a nice country club golf course than a public course - not due to any high and mighty views about the public, but just due to playing on a less trafficked, more expensive course.

I wonder how many Hermitage members match this description rather than someone looking for something to boost their ego. Obviously the money is a little different (not sure what it costs to be a part of a country club, but I'm assuming most are way less than $75,000) and Haystack isn't an elite mountain in the same way the Winchester Country Club is better than the random municipal Golf Course. 

At the same time though, fast lifts, no lines, and corduroy at 2pm is the definition of the perfect skiing experience for the average skier. They are not looking for steeps, 2000+ vertical and interesting double fall lines.

Definitely some are in it for the status and ego stroking, but I really wonder how big of a proportion those people really are at Hermitage. If I had $75,000+ to burn, I wouldn't become a member there... but I'm not the average skier.

Not looking to defend the 1%'s attitudes and beliefs, but just food for thought.


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## Jcb890 (Nov 27, 2017)

Jully said:


> I really do wonder how many care that much about pomp and status. Many country club members are in it for the status for sure, but others just view it as a good golf course / facilities. If money is no object, its better to play on a nice country club golf course than a public course - not due to any high and mighty views about the public, but just due to playing on a less trafficked, more expensive course.
> 
> I wonder how many Hermitage members match this description rather than someone looking for something to boost their ego. Obviously the money is a little different (not sure what it costs to be a part of a country club, but I'm assuming most are way less than $75,000) and Haystack isn't an elite mountain in the same way the Winchester Country Club is better than the random municipal Golf Course.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of your pondering.  Honestly, I have no idea why or what drives that mindset.  I guess you have to have enough disposable income to know?  I'll let you know if I ever get to the point of having "_fuck you_" money... but I don't think that's ever going to happen.

Bolded above is probably exactly why.  They have the money and will spend it to go somewhere that they can be with just their family and do what they want to do.  Or, if they do have to rub elbows with someone, it isn't some lowly peasant like myself.


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2017)

Personally I do not get why anyone would want to make Haystack your home base.  Its a small Mtn and i would get really bored of the place after a few weekends.


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## Jcb890 (Nov 27, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Personally I do not get why anyone would want to make Haystack your home base.  Its a small Mtn and i would get really bored of the place after a few weekends.


I don't get it either and I don't think I ever will.  It just kind of is what it is.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 27, 2017)

Busy schedules that dictate weekend and school vacation only skiing and the desire to not deal with lift lines and crowded, rundown base lodges.  

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## Glenn (Nov 27, 2017)

I have to imagine it has more to do with quality vs. quantity. You may not get in the vertical you will at another mountain, but you're also not waiting 30 minutes in line on a long weekend. I can see the appeal in that regard.


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## Smellytele (Nov 27, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Personally I do not get why anyone would want to make Haystack your home base.  Its a small Mtn and i would get really bored of the place after a few weekends.



I am the same way with golf courses. I don't like golfing the same one over and over again no matter how nice it is.


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2017)

We're all wired differently. If the exact same things appealed to everyone, what fun would that be? I don't understand why people like it, but I don't need to. As long as those people understand it and it is what they want, then that's what matters. I don't understand why people want to go sit in traffic to lay on a hot crowded beach at the Jersey shore every weekend in the summer...but obviously the people that do that understand.

There's people that don't understand why I would want to drive 5 hours every weekend in the winter to ski at Sugarbush. I hear all the time from people "aren't there closer places to ski? Mountain Creek is only 45 minutes away. What's the difference? Isn't skiing, skiing?". To each their own!


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2017)

Not to beat a dead horse, but for me - skiing is just part of it.  I drive up every weekend too.  But I also really enjoy the Mtn vibe after skiing (at sugarbush)  Is there any kind of after skiing Mtn vibe at Haystack?


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## mikec142 (Nov 27, 2017)

You guys who drive up to SB every weekend...do you have houses there or are you staying in a hotel/motel/condo/etc.  

I love SB and we go as often as possible.  Many times we stay with family in Burlington, but occasionally we get a room closer to the mountain.  But that really adds to the cost.    Looking for reasonable ways to do it.


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> You guys who drive up to SB every weekend...do you have houses there or are you staying in a hotel/motel/condo/etc.
> 
> I love SB and we go as often as possible.  Many times we stay with family in Burlington, but occasionally we get a room closer to the mountain.  But that really adds to the cost.    Looking for reasonable ways to do it.



I am fortunate to own a house on the mountain.  There are some fairly low cost places to stay in the area.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 27, 2017)

im in New England just about every weekend. I don't ski at one place, so it doesn't make sense to have a house or a share house or a ski club house etc. I tend to drive up late night Friday direct to mountain, avoiding the need for a hotel Friday night, then I check into a cheap motel on Saturday. this is easiest in rutland, manchester, burlington, lincoln nh. if I want to stay closer to stowe or jay or mrg/sugarbush, I need to get more creative, and I tend to try to do those weekends with a group and split an airbnb house


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## djd66 (Nov 27, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I tend to drive up late night Friday direct to mountain, avoiding the need for a hotel Friday night, then I check into a cheap motel on Saturday.



So are you sleeping in your car at the base of the Mtn?


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## Jully (Nov 27, 2017)

djd66 said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but for me - skiing is just part of it.  I drive up every weekend too.  But I also really enjoy the Mtn vibe after skiing (at sugarbush)  Is there any kind of after skiing Mtn vibe at Haystack?



Never been to Hermitage, but everything I've read about the place seems to indicate that they have spent millions trying to cultivate the ultimate mountain vibe in lodges and clubhouses. I would bet that that atmosphere is absolutely part of why members are a part of it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 27, 2017)

djd66 said:


> So are you sleeping in your car at the base of the Mtn?



no. I leave Brooklyn exactly when I need to in order to arrive 30 minutes before first chair

I tend to get out of work on Fridays, take a Xanax with a glass of whiskey, go to bed by 9 PM, and wake at 3, 4, 5, depending on how far I am going. by forcing myself to bed by 9, I get my 6-8 hours of sleep. falling asleep is the tricky part, so I intentionally stay up late on Thursdays and wake up early on Fridays, and use chemicals to put me down on Friday nights

one time I couldn't fall asleep so I left at like midnight for MRG, went to bed in the car, and woke up at 10 to a bustling parking lot. it was a 12" pow day. never again.


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2017)

mikec142 said:


> You guys who drive up to SB every weekend...do you have houses there or are you staying in a hotel/motel/condo/etc.
> 
> I love SB and we go as often as possible.  Many times we stay with family in Burlington, but occasionally we get a room closer to the mountain.  But that really adds to the cost.    Looking for reasonable ways to do it.



I own a condo.


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