# Another gear thread....What do you have? What do you want?



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 26, 2008)

Hey all..as we head into summer and keep trudging slong toward another ski season..I thought I'd start a quiver thread...

What kind of Skis, boots, borard do you ride/have? What kind of boots do you rock??

What about jacket, pants, gloves, hat/helmet, goggles..and other gear....

What new gear do you want for 08-09..

Here are my answers to get the ball rolling..


My Skis..Rossi Scratch Sprayer BC 06-07..182cm..88 in the waist..a little bit of life left after a good stonegrind..Elan S12's 04-05..176cm..112-67-100..awesome ice coast carver..heavy and stiff..my 2nd pair of the same skis..Atomic LT11s 05-06..170cm rock skis..the marquee route was not kind to the LTs..19..195 Saloman X-screams..fast..straight..and fast..they used to seem fat..now they seem skinny..they'll be good in a ski chair someday...195 Rossi Vipers..circa late 90s..skinny mo-fos..which are going toward a ski chair one day..

What I want for 08-09..100mm+ underfoot for out west and the rare Ice-Coast powder day and busting the crud..maybe some Gotomas..for some goose stomping....70-something underfoot stiff ice coast carvers 175-190cm..lots of sidecut...

My Boots..this past season I used a recreational model Atomic boot which I only paid 2 bills for. It didn't hurt my skiing and was way more comfortable than my old langes but I crave something different..I want to try the Full Tilt boot in the fall. 

Other gear..all my gear is pretty mucn beat except my helmet..I want a new pair of steezy blue goggles preferably another pair of Oakley A-Frames for bright conditions..and another pair of amber or rose lenses for plat light...New gloves are also on my list and some sort of waterfproof gortex shell pants for rainy..wet conditions. My Ride Snowboard pants are great and have great pockets by the knees but can't hang if it's wet out. I also want another steeze jacket..maybe from the Nestors late summer sale. Jackets are one thing that is tough for me buy online..

Only 6 more months till ski season..Holla


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## Philpug (May 26, 2008)

I will_ have_ a car full of demos...therefore i will not be _wanting_ anything.


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## andyzee (May 26, 2008)

What I have, is everthing I need.
What I want, is nothing.



If you want to know your past - look into your present conditions. If you want to know your future - look into your present actions.


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## Warp Daddy (May 26, 2008)

Have all  the ski gear and clothing i  need and then some at present and too damn many ski outfits according to my wife


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 26, 2008)

andyzee said:


> What I have, is everthing I need.
> What I want, is nothing.
> 
> 
> ...



Andy...what kind of acid have you been taking..your recent responses make it seem like your on a long strange trip..:uzi::-D


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## BeanoNYC (May 26, 2008)

Love my boots, love my skis.  I could use a new jacket and ski pants, though.


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## Trekchick (May 26, 2008)

Mogul skis and Goode poles


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## BeanoNYC (May 26, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Mogul skis and Goode poles



Good call on the poles.  I wouldn't mind a pair of leki adjustable poles with trigger straps.


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## Philpug (May 26, 2008)

I have me, what else could I want.


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## wa-loaf (May 26, 2008)

I'd like something with a waist in the 80's and a new ski jacket. May need knew ski pants if I don't lose 15 lbs. :-D


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## severine (May 26, 2008)

I WILL need a new ski jacket and pants next season.  I looked like a homeboy at Abasin with the unlined shell pants I was wearing.    And I've lost weight since then, with more to go.

Otherwise, I have all the gear I need.  Probably 1 pair too many of skis now, in retrospect, basic poles, 2 pairs of boots (I think I'm keeping the pair that's too big for spring skiing when my feet swell more).  Can't possibly need anything more.


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## Trekchick (May 26, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> I have me, what else could I want.


Well, friend, you are one of my favourite ski buddies, but even I need more than you to enjoy my ski season. ;-)



severine said:


> I WILL need a new ski jacket and pants next season.  I looked like a homeboy at Abasin with the unlined shell pants I was wearing.    And I've lost weight since then, with more to go.
> 
> Otherwise, I have all the gear I need.  Probably 1 pair too many of skis now, in retrospect, basic poles, 2 pairs of boots (I think I'm keeping the pair that's too big for spring skiing when my feet swell more).  Can't possibly need anything more.


You didn't look like a homeboy, but you mosdef deserve some new duds to fit the new you!

As for the skis, when you sell the joysticks, you let me know.  I have something special in mind for you. :-D


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## severine (May 26, 2008)

Those black pants were hanging halfway down my butt the entire time.  :lol:  I couldn't get them any tighter.  The khakis ones were ok, though much looser than the last time I had worn them.

I won't make any decisions on gear until the fall at the earliest.  I actually have 1 pair of beginner skis I used 1 time that also need to go.  They were an oops at the ski swap last year (knew nothing about them other than they were longer than my way too short skis I had, and they were marked intermediate so we bought them...definitely the wrong skis for me, though).


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## drjeff (May 26, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Mogul skis and Goode poles



Check out Swix poles too.  Their Mach pole is some really nice composite laminates!


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## mondeo (May 26, 2008)

Non-clothing:
Have: K2 Cablrawlers, Dalbello Krypton Pros, POS Marker bindings, Scott 7075-T7 46" poles.

Want: Look PX12, or whatever the Rossi or Dyna equivalent is.

A cheap pair of 42" poles and 44" poles, if only just to try out. I do get the feeling the 46"ers are too long - 48" would be about right if I didn't ski bumps.

IDOne / Elan Bloodline/ Volkl Rebellion / Fischer Lunar, if nothing other than to demo seeing as how bump ski demos, so far as I can tell, are non-existent. (Note that the F17 isn't on the list - figure there's a decent chance of a demo next year.)

Clothing - stuff. Only grievance is the bottom-level Smith goggles I have. Missed one of the better pairs on steepandcheap the other day by a few minutes; sticking with Smith because I know they'll fit my Smith helmet.

Also need a boot bag and a ski bag.

Only guaranteed buys are the boot bag and ski bag - I'll probably wait a year and get better bindings with my next pair of skis.


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## drjeff (May 26, 2008)

Right now I'm really, really happy with my Atomic B5i Metron's in a 172 (I actually have 2 pairs, although my older pair is definately on borrowed time with an edge just waiting to blow out under the heel piece ).  They're a bit heavy, but boy do I LOVE what I can do with them all over the mountain in any type of terrain/snow conditions

One of these days though I know that I'll likely add a real pair of fatty powder boards to my active use quiver.

Boots,  I'm on a pair of Lange L10's that in all likelyhood have skied their last day.  A new pair of plastic for the feet right now is definately 1st on my list of new additions

Poles:  I LOVE my Swix Mach Poles.  There not being replaced or retired anytime soon

Clothing,  good for the shell/soft shell stuff,  the main winter gear is approaching replacement age. Gotta see if any color scheme of some real good techy stuff catches my eye this fall

Helmet:  6 seasons on my Leedom brain bucket.  It has it's fair share of "bark burns" and "safety bar skid marks" - might be time for a new one as some of the features on the new Boeri that my wife got this spring look appealing.  The problemis i have a REALLLY BIG head and not all brain buckets fit me comfortably


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## andyzee (May 26, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Andy...what kind of acid have you been taking..your recent responses make it seem like your on a long strange trip..:uzi::-D


 
Haven't touched that stuff in at least 25 years, maybe having flashbacks, I don't know. 




When speeding past a law enforcement officer it is neccessary to accelerate. When he pulls out behind you and turns on his lgihts, it is neccessary to turn on you blinker. This will confuse him, however it is to let him know you are looking for an appropriate place to pull over and talk.


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## Hawkshot99 (May 26, 2008)

What do I need?  Nothing....  What do i want?:-D

Currently I have 
Skis-
Scott P3-  All mountain do everything
Scott Mission- 89 under foot, is my current powder ski
Rossi Mutix-  My ice/race ski

Jackets/Pants
I currently have 5 jackets that I wear, and 5 pairs of pants.:lol:  Many outfits to fit my moods.

Helmet
Have 2 Giro G-10's, and 1 Giro Talon(race helmet)

Boots
Dalbello Proton 12  - Needs some work still

Want I want........
Skis-
Sell the missions and get either Scott P4, or Line Prophet 100
Sell the P3 and get a new pair of P3's

Boots-
Want to try on some Nordica's

Jacket/Pants-
Need to see what looks good in the fall.  Can never have too many clothes:-D

Helmet-
There was a cool looking Bern I saw


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

severine said:


> Those black pants were hanging halfway down my butt the entire time.  :lol:  I couldn't get them any tighter.  .




There's a new invention called a belt..lol


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## severine (May 27, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> There's a new invention called a belt..lol


Those pants wouldn't have taken a belt.  They're elastic waist with a drawstring ... sort of like Gore-tex rain pants, only I wore them on a warm day because there's no insulating layer.  But thanks for the advice.


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## Trekchick (May 27, 2008)

severine said:


> Those pants wouldn't have taken a belt.  They're elastic waist with a drawstring ... sort of like Gore-tex rain pants, only I wore them on a warm day because there's no insulating layer.  But thanks for the advice.


Besides that, you need something that enhances the ski bunny in you


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## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Besides that, you need something that enhances the ski bunny in you




This however is one outfit I would NOT reccommend  






Unless of course you're going for the total Texas trash look uke:


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## severine (May 27, 2008)

:lol:  Will that get me a rich husband?


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## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

severine said:


> :lol:  Will that get me a rich husband?



For a couple of months maybe   And a big 'ol pre-nup attached to him 

Of course you'd have to check both your brain and self respect at the door first


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## severine (May 27, 2008)

Eh, yellow's not my color anyway.


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## jack97 (May 27, 2008)

mondeo said:


> IDOne / Elan Bloodline/ Volkl Rebellion / Fischer Lunar, if nothing other than to demo seeing as how bump ski demos, so far as I can tell, are non-existent.



Almost positive that Fischer stopped making the Lunars, I think they stopped making mogul skis in general.


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## jack97 (May 27, 2008)

I'm all set with hard goods; dynastar twister, k2 axis x and axis xr.  Boots, Dalbello Rampage and Cross; I got great end of season deals on both. Good thing I did, given those boots fit me fine, the rumor mill over at TGR is that next season's krypton will have larger volume. 


Soft goods, I found a deal for a snowboard jacket for the loose fit, since I'm bumping more. So my old everyday winter jacket can be put to rest (or for cold yardwork days), my old ski jacket becomes my new everyday winter jacket.

Pants, will be on the lookout for a baggie fit. My old pants is getting ripped up bad at the inside cuffs


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

drjeff said:


> This however is one outfit I would NOT reccommend
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Schwing...:grin:


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## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Schwing...:grin:



Kind of had a hunch that that pic would get a GSS response sooner or later 

Personally I think you fix the waistline in this uni-suit and it's got potential


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## 2knees (May 27, 2008)

Skis: Head Mad Trix 171cm.  I still have a pair of Volant Genesis Gold 175cm's but they are pretty much shot.  Also still have my Volkl Carvers at 193cm.  Saving those to race GSS.

Boots:  so old its not even funny.  Nordica N77.  completely packed out.  need to buy a pair this summer.

Want:  ski pants so all the clowns i ski with will stop picking on my choice of windpants.

Mid fat or even a full blown powder board.  It got a little old skiing powder on the bump skis.

new jacket.  the one i have is pretty old and ugly.  and yellow.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Kind of had a hunch that that pic would get a GSS response sooner or later
> 
> Personally I think you fix the waistline in this uni-suit and it's got potential



drjeff..stop posting all these MILF pictures..it's tough to concentrate on my work..:smash:


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## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> drjeff..stop posting all these MILF pictures..it's tough to concentrate on my work..:smash:



Better weight the desk down for this one GSS 






Check out the x-country skinny skis this one has   :roll:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Better weight the desk down for this one GSS
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow....boner..Pat Benatar called and she wants her hairstyle back..


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## Greg (May 27, 2008)

*Gear:*

2007 179 cm K2 Cabrawlers with Look PX12s
2007 172 cm Dynastar Legend 8000s with Rossi Axial 120s
2005 170 cm Volkl AC3s with Marker Motions
2006 Nordica Speed Machine 12 boots
Chopped down K2 4-speed poles with old grips from my Lekis
A pair of crap Swix ski poles. I basically destroyed them in two days.
Giro G10
Oakley Crowbar goggles

*Clothing:*

TNF Summit Series Jacket
TNF Freedom Pants
Predator Wear Wolverine Pants
EMS fleece pants under the shells
Marmot Piste gloves, an older pair of Marmots for warmer days, Work gloves from Home Depot ( :blink: ) for really warm days.

*Next season wants:*

New poles with sturdier baskets than the 4-speeds. I blow through those like nothing.
I wouldn't mind getting on a pair of Hart F17 bump skis


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## jack97 (May 27, 2008)

Greg said:


> .... Work gloves from Home Depot ( :blink: ) for really warm days.



So whats wrong with that? I was skiing with an old beat up sweat jacket for my last day. 

I'm getting to a point where I want comfort, the style and color coordination is gone: bindings colors don't match my skis, boots don't match anything, pant cuffs are in rags, my new ski jacket looks like an Army jacket. 


 Hmm... maybe I'm sporting the grunge look.


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## drjeff (May 27, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow....boner..Pat Benatar called and she wants her hairstyle back..



One more for you're viewing enjoyment GSS


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## Hawkshot99 (May 27, 2008)

drjeff said:


> One more for you're viewing enjoyment GSS



Dodesnt the thong go inside?


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## deadheadskier (May 27, 2008)

Have in use:

2006-07 Rossi BX 176cm
2006-07 Rossi B2 174cm
1997?    Rossi Axiom - 184  
Scott poles
2003 Dolomite boots
New last season Marker Helmet
Columbia Jacket
Old ski pants

Want:

I'd love a race/carving machine; but not next season, maybe the following though

I'd love a replacement for the Axiom Powder boards, but not next season, maybe two seasons from now

I'd love a replacement for the boots, but not next season - definitely the following season

I will be replacing my ski pants and possible gloves.  Could use some new under layers as well.  Jacket, goggles, helmet etc will all be the same and the BX's or B2's the primary boards.  Actually, I do want to get a couple of spare lenses for my goggles before they go out of stock as I enjoy them.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 27, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Dodesnt the thong go inside?




aahahahahahahahahah


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## mondeo (May 27, 2008)

jack97 said:


> boots don't match anything




Really, man. I mean, the only reason I got my Kryptons is that they matched my green jacket and black pants...

I could maybe see basing clothing colors based on what gear you have, but really, who cares? I never even thought about that until I read an article that mentioned how you shouldn't base your choice of boots on how well they matched your jacket. They aren't fashion accessories, they're gear, dammit!


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## mondeo (May 27, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Almost positive that Fischer stopped making the Lunars, I think they stopped making mogul skis in general.



Still have them on their website, though not linked from anything. But then, K2 and Rossi don't have anything on their site about their bump skis, and Elan doesn't have anything on the Bloodlines yet.



Greg said:


> I wouldn't mind getting on a pair of Hart F17 bump skis



I'm wary of the sidecut on those- it's a lot like the Rossis. The ones I really want to try out are the Elans and the IDOnes. Also interested in the Heads- I've heard they're unforgiving, but they have similar dimensions to the K2s. Think a stiffer tail with the Heads, though.


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## Trekchick (May 27, 2008)

mondeo said:


> I'm wary of the sidecut on those- it's a lot like the Rossis. The ones I really want to try out are the Elans and the IDOnes. Also interested in the Heads- I've heard they're unforgiving, but they have similar dimensions to the K2s. Think a stiffer tail with the Heads, though.


I've been on the Rossi's and felt that they were uninspirational.  Though I like Elan, I was never on their bump ski.  I enjoyed the K2 Cabrawler, and fell in love with the Hart F17 the second I started demoing it!!
There will be demos available this coming season. Do yourself a favour and give them a try!


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## Greg (May 28, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Also interested in the Heads- I've heard they're unforgiving, but they have similar dimensions to the K2s. Think a stiffer tail with the Heads, though.



Not sure if they fattened them up, but I can tell you the older Mad Trix Moguls that Pat and Brian have are a lot straighter and narrower overall than the Cabrawler. I think the F17 will suit my bump style (more turny) better.


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## deadheadskier (May 28, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Really, man. I mean, the only reason I got my Kryptons is that they matched my green jacket and black pants...
> 
> I could maybe see basing clothing colors based on what gear you have, but really, who cares? I never even thought about that until I read an article that mentioned how you shouldn't base your choice of boots on how well they matched your jacket. They aren't fashion accessories, they're gear, dammit!



Can't argue that regarding the boots.  Performance is all that should matter.  That said; Full Tilt boots are just about as ugly a boot as I've ever seen.  I won't say I am not considering them for my next pair because I am, but I do wish they were a bit more attractive than the ridiculous bumble bee pattern they have going on right now.  Plain black would do just fine.


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## Trekchick (May 28, 2008)

Greg said:


> Not sure if they fattened them up, but I can tell you the older Mad Trix Moguls that Pat and Brian have are a lot straighter and narrower overall than the Cabrawler. I think the F17 will suit my bump style (more turny) better.


Greg, how do you like your cabrawler?
That is the one other bump ski that I liked.  But between the two I liked the F17 better, would take the Cabrawler as a close second.


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## Philpug (May 28, 2008)

jack97 said:


> I'm all set with hard goods; dynastar twister, k2 axis x and axis xr.  Boots, Dalbello Rampage and Cross; I got great end of season deals on both. Good thing I did, given those boots fit me fine,* the rumor mill over at TGR is that next season's krypton will have larger volume. *


Not the case. Same volume. 



Greg said:


> *Next season wants:*
> 
> New poles with sturdier baskets than the 4-speeds. I blow through those like nothing.
> *I wouldn't mind getting on a pair of Hart F17 bump skis*


I will be posting demo dates here. 



mondeo said:


> *I'm wary of the sidecut on those- *it's a lot like the Rossis. The ones I really want to try out are the Elans and the IDOnes. Also interested in the Heads- I've heard they're unforgiving, but they have similar dimensions to the K2s. Think a stiffer tail with the Heads, though.


Yes, they have more sidecut, mogulskiing is evolving and sidecut is a part of it. With the speeds that are being obtained in the courses the sidecut (and our construction) is working to an advantage. The F17 on the cutting edge as the premier mogul ski. 



Greg said:


> Not sure if they fattened them up, but I can tell you the older Mad Trix Moguls that Pat and Brian have are a lot straighter and narrower overall than the Cabrawler. *I think the F17 will suit my bump style (more turny) better.*



Hopefully it will.


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## jack97 (May 28, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Full Tilt boots are just about as ugly a boot as I've ever seen.  I won't say I am not considering them for my next pair because I am, but I do wish they were a bit more attractive than the ridiculous bumble bee pattern they have going on right now.  Plain black would do just fine.



Take those full tilts out in the bumps, you wont' score any style points from most skiers/riders but you will score credibility points from serious bumpers.   

True story, riding up the lift, a couple were talking about how the pole should match the ski and bindings, I bursted out in laughter and was still chuckling when we got off the lift. I guess I won't be impressing those who are color coordinated


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## Greg (May 28, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Greg, how do you like your cabrawler?
> That is the one other bump ski that I liked.  But between the two I liked the F17 better, would take the Cabrawler as a close second.



Love them actually, but they're the only bump ski I've ever skied so I have little to compare them to.


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## jack97 (May 28, 2008)

Greg said:


> Love them actually, but they're the only bump ski I've ever skied so I have little to compare them to.



Thats why I want to try something different; the twister is tad bit skinnier and has less shape than an all mtn ski (circa early 2000). I was thinking about the cabrawer, volkl dragon slayers or heads which has a straighter shape. Not sure about the heads, it might be to stiff for my weight.


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## 2knees (May 28, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Thats why I want to try something different; the twister is tad bit skinnier and has less shape than an all mtn ski (circa early 2000). I was thinking about the cabrawer, volkl dragon slayers or heads which has a straighter shape. Not sure about the heads, it might be to stiff for my weight.




I'm a Buck 40 soaking wet.  the heads are fine.


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## Trekchick (May 28, 2008)

Greg said:


> Love them actually, but they're the only bump ski I've ever skied so I have little to compare them to.


To give you a comparison. 
I thought the cabrawler was decent to ski out side of the bumps, though not ideal.  Many bump skis are good for bumps and only bumps.
The F17(for lack of a better comparison) was somewhat similar to the cabrawler, and yet its totally different.  Kind of like you gave it a shot of steroids and Valium at the same time.
Like you could attack the bumps without a care in the world.
I look forward to hearing what you think about it.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 28, 2008)

How much are the F17s?  I saw that the Hart big mountain skis are retailing for $1,000 with no binders..wowser..


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## jack97 (May 28, 2008)

2knees said:


> I'm a Buck 40 soaking wet.  the heads are fine.



You're killin me bro, I bring home another set of skis.... I might be sleeping downstairs with the dogs for a while. 



Hmm.... at least they don't steal the blankets away from me during the middle of the night.


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## Trekchick (May 28, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> How much are the F17s?  I saw that the Hart big mountain skis are retailing for $1,000 with no binders..wowser..


You know, I'm embarrassed to say, I'm not sure.  I just knew I wanted them so I have my sights set on them.
I'll let you know when I get my facts and figures together.

One thing I know for sure, my ski quiver doesn't cost as much as my husband's dirtbike quiver. :smile:


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## mondeo (May 28, 2008)

Greg said:


> Not sure if they fattened them up, but I can tell you the older Mad Trix Moguls that Pat and Brian have are a lot straighter and narrower overall than the Cabrawler. I think the F17 will suit my bump style (more turny) better.



Heads are 89-60-80, K2s are 92-66-82. I know the heads look a lot narrower than the K2s, but I think it's just the shape of the tips - they're a lot more pointy on the Heads.



I [Hart] Skiing said:


> I will be posting demo dates here.
> .
> .
> .
> Yes, they have more sidecut, mogulskiing is evolving and sidecut is a part of it. With the speeds that are being obtained in the courses the sidecut (and our construction) is working to an advantage. The F17 on the cutting edge as the premier mogul ski.


I am looking forward to testing out the F17, as well as any other bump ski I can find a demo for. I've got another year of working on my technique before picking my next pair. Hoping for a demo date at Killington late in the year next year...hint, hint. In the end I'll get whatever ski I find works best for me in the bumps, with consideration of price. Might be the F17, might be the super-straight Elan, might be another pair of K2s. Or something else. I'll be a little skeptical of the F17 going in, but open minded.



jack97 said:


> Thats why I want to try something different; the twister is tad bit skinnier and has less shape than an all mtn ski (circa early 2000). I was thinking about the cabrawer, volkl dragon slayers or heads which has a straighter shape. Not sure about the heads, it might be to stiff for my weight.


I just wish they were still making the Twister and Teneighty Mogul. According to my rough surveys, those had to be the two most popular bump skis out there. Popularity doesn't always mean best, but it counts for something.


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> You know, I'm embarrassed to say, I'm not sure.  I just knew I wanted them so I have my sights set on them.
> I'll let you know when I get my facts and figures together.
> 
> One thing I know for sure, my ski quiver doesn't cost as much as my husband's dirtbike quiver. :smile:




And I'm sure you both have fun "negotiating" the purchase of quiver additions with each other


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## Philpug (May 29, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> How much are the F17s?  I saw that the Hart big mountain skis are retailing for $1,000 with no binders..wowser..



Look at MSRP's of most high end skis out there, we are not that much out of line. Where there is a difference in that the pricing of the F17 is more in line with race skis than bump skis because of the construction of htese skis. When competitors are breaking 2-3 pair of "other" mogul skis a season, we did not have ONE pair of F17's returned to us from all of the testers we had out on the skis out on the course last year. Yes, it might be a bit more than other mogul specific sksi, but it will be vastly superior in construction and will not break down. You wil get a ski that will last twice as long as other skis, therefore really is costing you half as much 



mondeo said:


> I am looking forward to testing out the F17, as well as any other bump ski I can find a demo for. I've got another year of working on my technique before picking my next pair. Hoping for a demo date at Killington late in the year next year...hint, hint. In the end I'll get whatever ski I find works best for me in the bumps, with consideration of price. Might be the F17, might be the super-straight Elan, might be another pair of K2s. Or something else. I'll be a little skeptical of the F17 going in, but open minded.
> .



Please have an open mind, I am confident you will be impressed.


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

drjeff said:


> And I'm sure you both have fun "negotiating" the purchase of quiver additions with each other


I will not admit nor deny that any such "negotiating" is carried out. :-D


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> I will not admit nor deny that any such "negotiating" is carried out. :-D



Yup,  good to see that it's not just in my house that such "negotiation tactics" get used by both parties with respect to potential toy quiver additions!  

And for whatever reason, my wife's "negotiating skills" seem to work at convincing me that she should add to her toy quiver


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## Greg (May 29, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> You wil get a ski that will last twice as long as other skis, therefore really is costing you half as much



I'm nitpicking, but if the ski lasts twice as long, but costs twice as much, it's actually costing you the same...

Personally, I'm more interested in performance than reliability. I typically tire of skis and want to try different technology long before the skis break down.

I really like the wider shovel on the F17. I think that will make it more versatile on the rest of the mountain. What bindings do you recommend? Do you recommend altering the mounting point of the bindings in any way, i.e. I've seen recommendations for bump skis is to go 1-4 cm forward of the manufacturer's mounting line.


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

Greg said:


> I'm nitpicking, but if the ski lasts twice as long, but costs twice as much, it's actually costing you the same....


I was thinking the same thing when I read it, but I was trying not to pick on him(which pains me, because he makes it soooooo easy!!)..........Thanks for taking the lead!:lol:

Sadly, I think I know what he meant, which is that the ski will last 3-4X longer than most other bump skis because its built in the competition line up of Hart instead of the free skiing line up, as it is in most other ski mfgrs.  
Thus, costing less in the long run, if you're killin it in the bumpfields, on a regular basis!


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## Philpug (May 29, 2008)

Greg said:


> I'm nitpicking, but if the ski lasts twice as long, but costs twice as much, it's actually costing you the same...
> 
> Personally, I'm more interested in performance than reliability. I typically tire of skis and want to try different technology long before the skis break down.
> 
> I really like the wider shovel on the F17. I think that will make it more versatile on the rest of the mountain. What bindings do you recommend? Do you recommend altering the mounting point of the bindings in any way, i.e. I've seen recommendations for bump skis is to go 1-4 cm forward of the manufacturer's mounting line.



Actually, my bad, our ski is also twice as good, therefore costing half as much . 

As far as bindings, Look and Salomons are still really the binding of choice with this segment of skis. Mount point is such a personal preference.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Sadly, I think I know what he meant, which is that the ski will last 3-4X longer than most other bump skis because its built in the competition line up of Hart instead of the free skiing line up, as it is in most other ski mfgrs.
> Thus, costing less in the long run, if you're killin it in the bumpfields, on a regular basis!



I think it cool that another ski manufacturer is adding a mogul ski to their product line instead of obsoleting one. 

Having said that, here's the "yeah but"..... I do agree that the wider tip on the F17 will give that ski more versitily, so it may not be banging it in the bumps all day. It prolly kicks butt in the trees. However that's the problem, high end construction does not prevent core shots and deformed edges. Call me frugal but I can't see myself taking a $700 -$1000 ski into the trees, not in NE.


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## Greg (May 29, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> Actually, my bad, our ski is also twice as good, therefore costing half as much .



Thanks for clarifying. 



I [Hart] Skiing said:


> As far as bindings, Look and Salomons are still really the binding of choice with this segment of skis. Mount point is such a personal preference.



So you've seen mounting points vary off the mark? What is the most common? On the mark? 1 cm forward?



jack97 said:


> I think it cool that another ski manufacturer is adding a mogul ski to their product line instead of obsoleting one.



Absolutely agreed. Anything that helps to bring attention to mogul skiing is a positive in my opinion. This is precisely why I hope Hart gets involved at some level with the Sundown bump comps.



jack97 said:


> Having said that, here's the "yeah but"..... I do agree that the wider tip on the F17 will give that ski more versitily, so it may not be banging it in the bumps all day. It prolly kicks butt in the trees. However that's the problem, high end construction does not prevent core shots and deformed edges. Call me frugal but I can't see myself taking a $700 -$1000 ski into the trees, not in NE.



All skis are rock skis, my brotha!  Seriously, I was thinking the same thing about the F17 being a good woods ski (not necessarily a powder day) or even just on ungroomed terrain that has not formed true zippers yet.


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> I think it cool that another ski manufacturer is adding a mogul ski to their product line instead of obsoleting one.
> 
> Having said that, here's the "yeah but"..... I do agree that the wider tip on the F17 will give that ski more versitily, so it may not be banging it in the bumps all day. It prolly kicks butt in the trees. However that's the problem, high end construction does not prevent core shots and deformed edges. Call me frugal but I can't see myself taking a $700 -$1000 ski into the trees, not in NE.



Yeah But...........wait until you try it!!!


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## deadheadskier (May 29, 2008)

Everyone's financial decisions vary, but if I won the lotto tomorrow, there's still NO WAY I'm paying over $500-$600 flat for a set of skis.  I'll wait a couple of years and pick up a new pair of two year old skis for less.  

That said, I wish Hart well with their introduction.  The mogul segment can use more players and promotion of the discipline.  I'm sure they'll be great as 'back in the day' most considered Hart some of the best mogul skis around.  Glad to hear that they are making them more bomb proof to.  That was an issue way back and why I went with a Rossi over Hart.  The old honeycomb core tended to break down or so I was told.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

greg said:


> .... I was thinking the same thing about the F17 being a good woods ski (not necessarily a powder day) or even just on ungroomed terrain that has not formed true zippers yet.



Rossi Mogul 101-66-01,Dynaster twister 98-66-85 and Sally 1080 95-66-82. Has enuf tip for the woods and to start new bumps. 

If something happens to my twister, the next ski I might get is the Dragon Slayer 94-66-78 or the rossi.


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## deadheadskier (May 29, 2008)

Question on the binding mounting for you bump addics who have kept up with the times.  Does a 1cm difference really make _that_ much of a difference?  Aren't we splitting hairs here?


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Question on the binding mounting for you bump addics who have kept up with the times.  Does a 1cm difference really make _that_ much of a difference?  Aren't we splitting hairs here?



I think the answer might involve an "actual" difference vs. the perceived "mental" difference


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## Philpug (May 29, 2008)

Greg said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1)Let me talk to Patrick and Michael

2) I will do what I can, the week of the January event is when I will be in Vegas for SIA

3) It is a versatile bump ski. Paul Jones was tearing up the back country of Stowe on a pair. 

I understand what people are saying about the shape. The same could have been said 5+ years ago about all mountain skis, powder skis and slalom skis. Did you think back then that all mountain skis would be 80-90mm in the waist? That powder skis would be 110+ underfoot? Did we think 15 years ago that slalom skis would by a 165? Gear is evolving with technique, construction and terrain. This is where mogul skis are headed.


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## deadheadskier (May 29, 2008)

drjeff said:


> I think the answer might involve an "actual" difference vs. the perceived "mental" difference



that's what I'm thinking.

I sell certain private label products.  Sometimes we run out of the label and use a generic one.  Customers go nuts thinking it's no where near as good, even though its the exact same product.

I'd actually never be comfortable with going with something different than the factory mount.  I would hate to half to re-drill a ski because I didn't like a bindings position.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Question on the binding mounting for you bump addics who have kept up with the times.  Does a 1cm difference really make _that_ much of a difference?  Aren't we splitting hairs here?



In general, most mogul specific skis I've seen has the midline (for the binding position) brought more forward than all mtn and racing skis. Bringing it up another 1 cm from the midline might be splitting hairs but it seems to be a big diff in position compare to other types of skis.


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## Greg (May 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Does a 1cm difference really make _that_ much of a difference?  Aren't we splitting hairs here?



Probably not. Yes.

But it's the end of May so what else we gonna talk about...? :lol:


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

Greg said:


> Probably not. Yes.
> 
> But it's the end of May so what else we gonna talk about...? :lol:



Yup, my hunch is that most of the folks who actually COULD discern the difference with a 1cm forward binding mount and benefit from it, probably aren't buying their own skis, but get them given to them direct from the mfg.


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## madskier6 (May 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd actually never be comfortable with going with something different than the factory mount.  I would hate to half to re-drill a ski because I didn't like a bindings position.



For some skis there is no one "factory mount".  I don't know about mogul skis but for powder skis & twin tips, the manufacturer often marks "boot center" & "true center".  If you're a park rat or you like to ride switch, you mount it on "true center".

I had to make this decision when I mounted my Volkl Gotamas this season.  I mounted it on the back line because I am using these skis to float in powder & in the trees not to do tricks in the park or to ride switch.  Then there are people who like it somehwere in between the 2 marks.  There are pages & pages of threads on Epic & TGR discussing the pros & cons of where to mount these skis.


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## bvibert (May 29, 2008)

madskier6 said:


> For some skis there is no one "factory mount".  I don't know about mogul skis but for powder skis & twin tips, the manufacturer often marks "boot center" & "true center".  If you're a park rat or you like to ride switch, you mount it on "true center".
> 
> I had to make this decision when I mounted my Volkl Gotamas this season.  I mounted it on the back line because I am using these skis to float in powder & in the trees not to do tricks in the park or to ride switch.  Then there are people who like it somehwere in between the 2 marks.  There are pages & pages of threads on Epic & TGR discussing the pros & cons of where to mount these skis.



I like to mount one ski 'boot center' and the other 'true center', it helps keep things interesting.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 29, 2008)

On my Rossi Scratch BCs..there are two mountain points...standard and modern...I had mine mounted standard which is a hair farther back...I like to see alot of ski in front of me..but park rats would prefer modern or even..center mounted..for landing switch..


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

When I got my Bro's I did a bunch of research on mounting point.  When it came down to it, Tyrone Shoelaces advised me to go 2mm(not cm, but mm!) forward.  He said that I may not notice the difference but that tiny bit made a difference for him when he competes in big mountain competitions.

*Disclaimer: I will not be hucking the stuff he does, therefore the 2mm that he notices will not be noticed by the likes of me.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> When I got my Bro's I did a bunch of research on mounting point.  When it came down to it, Tyrone Shoelaces advised me to go 2mm(not cm, but mm!) forward.  He said that I may not notice the difference but that tiny bit made a difference for him when he competes in big mountain competitions.
> 
> *Disclaimer: I will not be hucking the stuff he does, therefore the 2mm that he notices will not be noticed by the likes of me.




2mm :blink: :blink:             That's .0787 inches or 1/12.7 inches. Some one's legs are being pulled.


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

Seriously, makes no difference to me, but to those who are jumping off cliffs and participating in Big Mountain Competitions, that is the difference between balance and  AAAAAAACKKKK!


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## Greg (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Seriously, makes no difference to me, but to those who are jumping off cliffs and participating in Big Mountain Competitions, that is the difference between balance and  AAAAAAACKKKK!



I think you got owned.


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## Philpug (May 29, 2008)

Mount the F17 at +1 or 2.


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> 2mm :blink: :blink:             That's .0787 inches or 1/12.7 inches. Some one's legs are being pulled.



We're talking the width of a standard paper clip here folks! 

For reference, that litle loop next to the dime is 1/16" which is pretty darn close to 2mm!







Boy, if we're at this level of minutia discussion right now and it's not even June yet, what will we be talking about come August


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## Trekchick (May 29, 2008)

Are you saying that I brought a whole new level of entertainment to the board?
You're welcome!


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## Hawkshot99 (May 29, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Question on the binding mounting for you bump addics who have kept up with the times.  Does a 1cm difference really make _that_ much of a difference?  Aren't we splitting hairs here?



I have played on some of our demo twin tips that have a regular demo binding on them.  You can move the mounting point forward or back without drilling.

Take a few runs then move it, and try again.  No I can not feel a 1 cm difference, but much mor than that and you do notice it.  Riding a core center mount ski when used to boot center, is a HUGE difference!


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

Your techs must have had precision instruments; the thickness from my ultra fine point sharpie is .5mm. My guess (that I pulled out from the air) is that the mismatched between my binding mounts is around 1- 2 mm.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Boy, if we're at this level of minutia discussion right now and it's not even June yet, what will we be talking about come August



Dunno, I'm still thinking about making my clown poles shorter, got them down to 40 inches..... maybe another .050 inches will do the trick.


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## bvibert (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Dunno, I'm still thinking about making my clown poles shorter, got them down to 40 inches..... maybe another .050 inches will do the trick.



You gotta talk about it in metric to make it seem cooler, even better is if you mix inches and metric...

After many careful measurements I'm gonna cut my 40 inch clown poles down 1.2mm on the left pole and 1.3mm on the right pole, that will account for the slight variance in arm length that I measured.


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

bvibert said:


> You gotta talk about it in metric to make it seem cooler, even better is if you mix inches and metric...
> 
> After many careful measurements I'm gonna cut my 40 inch clown poles down 1.2mm on the left pole and 1.3mm on the right pole, that will account for the slight variance in arm length that I measured.



You're right bro, got to stick with metric or mils (1/1000 inches) imo just as cool. My problem right now is the caliper I have is only accurate to .5mils.... bummer. And the pipe cutter I have just isn't giving me a tight enuf cut.


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## Hawkshot99 (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> My problem right now is the caliper I have is only accurate to .5mils.... bummer. And the pipe cutter I have just isn't giving me a tight enuf cut.



I can measure it real nice and accurate, but I can never get it to break right on the line when i snap it over my knee......:smash:


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## bvibert (May 29, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I can measure it real nice and accurate, but I can never get it to break right on the line when i snap it over my knee......:smash:



You clearly need a precision, calibrated knee.


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## Hawkshot99 (May 29, 2008)

bvibert said:


> You clearly need a precision, calibrated knee.



It is still in rehab.  Soon it will be calibrated.:lol:


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## jack97 (May 29, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> It is still in rehab.  Soon it will be calibrated.:lol:



How is the rehab going?


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## bvibert (May 29, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> It is still in rehab.  Soon it will be calibrated.:lol:



No wonder its still in rehab, if you keep breaking poles over it...


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## Hawkshot99 (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> How is the rehab going?



Going good, but had to skip yesterday.  Was not able to make it there because of car troubles.(and by car troubles I mean locked keys)


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## drjeff (May 29, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Are you saying that I brought a whole new level of entertainment to the board?
> You're welcome!



Women


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## mondeo (May 29, 2008)

jack97 said:


> And the pipe cutter I have just isn't giving me a tight enuf cut.



You mean you don't have your own CNC for pole trimming? :blink:


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## jack97 (May 30, 2008)

mondeo said:


> You mean you don't have your own CNC for pole trimming? :blink:



I would if I could have found one that matches my basement walls. :dunce:


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## Philpug (May 30, 2008)

I keep cutting my poles down..they are still too short.


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## jack97 (May 30, 2008)

5' 7" got my poles down to 40 inches. I was using 42 inches but gave them to my 10 year old.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 30, 2008)

damn AZ is the site for people with clown poles..Are there any normal folks with 48 or 50 inches poles or is this site filled with midgets..lol


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## Greg (May 30, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> damn AZ is the site for people with clown poles..Are there any normal folks with 48 or 50 inches poles or is this site filled with midgets..lol



So...let's see...if you're the exception rather than the rule, who's normal? Clown poles are mad steezy yo.


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## jack97 (May 30, 2008)

Check out the clown poles on these gals.


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## jack97 (May 30, 2008)

Wow! Look at that forward lean 

I got to quit looking at these type of girlie pics.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 30, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Wow! Look at that forward lean
> 
> I got to quit looking at these type of girlie pics.




drool...she's hopefully legal...doh..


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## jack97 (May 30, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> drool...she's hopefully legal...doh..





jack97 said:


>




I'm drooling over Jen, look at that hand position and the upper body position. Kirsti's free hand has casted out to soon and make her rotate the upper body. She doesn't seem patience enuf on the poling. 

Damn, I can stare at these pics all day.


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## Philpug (May 30, 2008)

here is some good body position:


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## mondeo (May 30, 2008)

jack97 said:


> She doesn't seem patience enuf on the poling.


:idea: 

...

Nah, too easy.

In all seriousness though, there is something undeniably hot about a really good bump skiing chick.



I [Hart] Skiing said:


> here is some good body position:



I have to agree, that is good product placement, er, I mean, body positioning. :wink:


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## jack97 (May 31, 2008)

mondeo said:


> :idea:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



In a way I was serious, Kristi Richards poling doesn't seem to be consistent, she's casting too early with her left and doesn't release the right arm thus letting her right shoulder rotate up the hill. The you tube vid shows this, yeah she won the championship with that run but the poling stands out. 



Jen on the other hand has a nice counter position with her free (non poling hand), the segment start at the 12:00 mark really shows this. 



I got to stop looking at these girlie vids :dunce:


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## deadheadskier (May 31, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> damn AZ is the site for people with clown poles..Are there any normal folks with 48 or 50 inches poles or is this site filled with midgets..lol



I use normal size poles.  I might hack them down a couple of inches as there were a few times this spring where I felt them to be a tad long in the bumps.  I certainly won't be going clown style though as on any given day I'll spend about 60% of my time tops in the bumps.

Even in High School when I skied bumps 95% of the time and competed a little bit, I didn't go clown style.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 31, 2008)

Park rats are also into clown poles.  One run I traded poles with one of the Jibhonks from PASR..he's 5'7 and uses 42 inch poles..I don't think the poles touched the snow the entire run..I was pole planting into air.  At the top of most runs..I like to use my poles to help accelerate..as every extra bit of speed helps/

At Blue mountain there is only one bump run..It's really nice and forgiving about 1/3 of the time..about 1/3 of the time it's O.K...not great but skiable and about 1/3 of the time..it's solid boilerplate from freezing rain.

When it's good I'll take several runs in the bumps each session..when it's O.K. maybe a few runs..and when it's bad..usually one run..but on ski trips I'm in the bumps much more.  It's hard to ski a place like Jackson Hole or Stowe without encountering any moguls unless it's a huge powder day or you stick to the groomers and flats...If I entered a bump competition..I'd probably rock 40 inch poles..JEAAAA!!!


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## drjeff (May 31, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> damn AZ is the site for people with clown poles..Are there any normal folks with 48 or 50 inches poles or is this site filled with midgets..lol



I hear you GSS!  I almost feel guilty saying I use a pair of [size=+4]*52"*[/size]  composite fiber glorified shish-ka-bob sticks!


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## jack97 (May 31, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> .....If I entered a bump competition..I'd probably rock 40 inch poles..JEAAAA!!!





jack97 said:


> Check out the clown poles on these gals.



A mogul coach said that for the pole length, the top part of the handle should go up to the hip bone, you can see that with the pic.


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## Hawkshot99 (May 31, 2008)

6'0" and I use 47" or 48" poles.  Depends on the day.


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## Trekchick (May 31, 2008)

I'm 5'6" and have 48 inch poles.  I want to get a 46" pair to have as an option, and am thinking Goode.
The poles I am currently using are the Leki trigger grips that were on sale at REI last year.  I couldn't pass up the deal, but I have wanted a pair of goode poles for about 5 years and never take the plunge.
Any suggestions on Goode,(model's and features)?


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## mondeo (Jun 1, 2008)

jack97 said:


> In a way I was serious, Kristi Richards poling doesn't seem to be consistent, she's casting too early with her left and doesn't release the right arm thus letting her right shoulder rotate up the hill.



Yeah, I get ya. In my observations, it seems like if you take 20 skiers on a bump run, you'll get 5 that shouldn't be there, 5 really good skiers that don't know how to ski bumps, 5 that know how to ski bumps but are definite works in progress, 4 that have the A&E and turning down but their arms are going out to the side, and one that has everything going for them. It is very rare that you get someone whose poling is better than any other part of their technique. Not that any part of my technique is good (I'd call it all progressing,) but I do try to focus on proper poling as I find it makes everything else easier.



deadheadskier said:


> I use normal size poles.  I might hack them down a couple of inches as there were a few times this spring where I felt them to be a tad long in the bumps.  I certainly won't be going clown style though as on any given day I'll spend about 60% of my time tops in the bumps.
> 
> Even in High School when I skied bumps 95% of the time and competed a little bit, I didn't go clown style.



Proper bump pole size is definitely, for me at least, something I can feel the difference after changing but not really realize when using the longer poles. Last year I was using 48" poles, and didn't really feel any need to go shorter. When I tried 46" poles this year I immediately felt the difference, to the point of the one time I went back to 48" poles (thought I was going to be skiing with friends and not in the bumps,) they were so frustrating that I ended up bending them into a 90° angle after I got home. 46" poles still feel fine for me, but when I watch video I can see that the poles are definitely pushing my hands up a bit towards shoulder level. Only problem is that it's hard enough skating with 46" poles as it is; new HSQ at Skye peak should help alleviate those difficulties some next year, though.


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## jack97 (Jun 1, 2008)

mondeo said:


> In my observations, it seems like if you take 20 skiers on a bump run, you'll get 5 that shouldn't be there, 5 really good skiers that don't know how to ski bumps, 5 that know how to ski bumps but are definite works in progress, 4 that have the A&E and turning down but their arms are going out to the side, and one that has everything going for them.



I know what you mean, every know and then I see skiers as below with long poles and compounding that problem by planting on the front side of the bump.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

So would length would classify as 'clown poles' for me?  I'm 5'9" (on a good day) and I currently use a 46" pole.  

I was thinking of cutting them down to maybe a 44.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> So would length would classify as 'clown poles' for me?  I'm 5'9" (on a good day) and I currently use a 46" pole.
> 
> I was thinking of cutting them down to maybe a 44.



IDK.....They only evidence i can find show full size poles...:blink:


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## bigbog (Jun 25, 2008)

*....*

Yes...pants a definite!  Have two jackets...one red, the other burnt red and orange, both breathe magnificently...I now hate red....:roll:   Tried a nice looking blue shell @end-of-season(~04)-sale...was supposed to _really_ breathe...it didn't = Not a fun April day!...beautiful sun, hiking up 16"deep champagne powder, ~36F, warm Spring day wind...you name it....but Not FUN when the shell to top "all other shells" becomes a cold rain forest inside the shell when zipped...sold that thing.   Guess I can hold onto one(the Marmot) and grin & bear it..


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Jun 26, 2008)

I've got too much gear to list...so lets skip to what I want; a fatter powder ski...currently the quiver maxes out at 101...but I plan to have a 114 or so by the start of 2009.


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## AdironRider (Jul 13, 2008)

Boards:

Burton Custom 162 (Limited Edition with an ostrich leather topsheet - ballah) w/ Nidecker Carbon 900 bindings - early season and jib stick 

Never Summer Titan 164 w/ Burton P1 bindings - everyday killing it

Illuminati Howard 169 w/ Burton P1 bindings - 10+ inch pow days and BC 

This setup rules and I can tackle any type of conditions with these three boards.


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