# Information Privacy



## gmcunni (Feb 18, 2016)

Should Apple enable the FBI to read anyone's iphone?

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/


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## Edd (Feb 18, 2016)

Ooo, I hadn't seen this letter.  I'm a bit torn, considering the tragedy that's occurred. I don't see the harm in Apple creating the tool for the back door and then just keeping it to themselves. Once they hand it over to the FBI, it's out there. 

So maybe if the FBI needs something they can go to Apple to crack it? I'm not a computer expert, by a long shot.


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 18, 2016)

They would have to create a brute force "back door" and once that's created - it's there..  If it doesn't exist then all my data is safe on my phone..  If it does exist - someone will find a way in..

There's no harm until it exists...


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## deadheadskier (Feb 18, 2016)

Don't judges subpoena phone records?  I'm not sure I understand the difference.

I'm all for privacy rights, but don't you forfeit those rights when you commit a crime?


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## Edd (Feb 18, 2016)

This is all great PR for Apple in terms of feeling secure about your personal info. 

Does this imply that Android phones are currently hackable by the FBI?


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## prsboogie (Feb 18, 2016)

Apple, I'm quite sure, already has the ability to get into that phone. They need to have the FBI bring it to them and unlock it to get the info they need. Freedom is never free!


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## dlague (Feb 18, 2016)

I think the grandstanding by Apple is deplorable!  Have Apple get into the phone and reset the password.


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## gmcunni (Feb 18, 2016)

edward snowden


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 18, 2016)

dlague said:


> I think the grandstanding by Apple is deplorable!  Have Apple get into the phone and reset the password.



they have to actually create the method to do so..


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 18, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Don't judges subpoena phone records?  I'm not sure I understand the difference.
> 
> I'm all for privacy rights, but don't you forfeit those rights when you commit a crime?



big difference..
Phone companies can only give you metadata - who called whom - when - from where.  Not the actual message..
They want Apple to create a way to access iPhones that have been encrypted..  And that doesn't exist.
I make a living encrypting things..  It's not easy to bypass.  It takes luck - power and brute force...
If I owned a Droid - I'd use encryption as well..  And they wouldn't be able to break that if i use strong encryption(AES256) with a strong encryption key..

edit: Apple uses strong encryption(AES256) as well as hashing( SHA-1 cryptographic hash function) - not easy to break at all...


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## Domeskier (Feb 18, 2016)

The NSA or some other government agency cannot already do this for them?


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 18, 2016)

Domeskier said:


> The NSA or some other government agency cannot already do this for them?



nope...  why would they? 
You assume that the Govt scoops up all the smart people...  But they all end up at places like Apple and Facebook..


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## prsboogie (Feb 19, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> edward snowden = piece of shit



fify


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## Edd (Feb 19, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> fify



Did you watch HBOs documentary on him last year? It was very interesting. I follow him on Twitter. He Tweets too much, but sometimes he links to stuff I want to read.


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## Domeskier (Feb 19, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> nope...  why would they?
> You assume that the Govt scoops up all the smart people...  But they all end up at places like Apple and Facebook..



There are a lot of very smart people at Google et al. sitting in cubicles and hoping for a huge payday while grinding out code to make it easier to download porn to a driverless car, but I assume that most elite mathematicians and computer scientists are actually affiliated with our nation's top research universities, where they frequently consult with, advise or otherwise find themselves on the payroll of government agencies.  My guess would be that even if the NSA, etc. had the capacity to crack an iPhone or whatever, the tech would be so highly classified that local police and the courts would never even know about it, much less have the authority to get their hands on it.


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## skiNEwhere (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't think apple has a problem with cracking the phone in and of itself. It's the fact that they don't want to set a precedent that they will do this, because then the FBI and other government organizations will keep coming back with other phones to crack. Apparently the shooter set the phone up so that it will erase its contents after 10 failed login attempts. What I find interesting is that I'm sure the NSA or some other government organization has the capability to unlock it, but it's probably classified Top Secret/SCI so they can't help out the FBI. Apple probably doesn't want to give out an IOS with a backdoor because it could be reverse engineered and used again. Apple is a publicly traded company and it would only take one FBI employee to destroy years of technological advances by inadvertently releasing a backdoor ios.


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

Domeskier said:


> There are a lot of very smart people at Google et al. sitting in cubicles and hoping for a huge payday while grinding out code to make it easier to download porn to a driverless car, but I assume that most elite mathematicians and computer scientists are actually affiliated with our nation's top research universities, where they frequently consult with, advise or otherwise find themselves on the payroll of government agencies.  My guess would be that even if the NSA, etc. had the capacity to crack an iPhone or whatever, the tech would be so highly classified that local police and the courts would never even know about it, much less have the authority to get their hands on it.



Once a back door is created - legions of hackers will be looking to find and exploit..  It's only a matter of time..


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-ill-decrypt-san-bernardino-phone-for-free-2016-2


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> I don't think apple has a problem with cracking the phone in and of itself. It's the fact that they don't want to set a precedent that they will do this, because then the FBI and other government organizations will keep coming back with other phones to crack. Apparently the shooter set the phone up so that it will erase its contents after 10 failed login attempts. What I find interesting is that I'm sure the NSA or some other government organization has the capability to unlock it, but it's probably classified Top Secret/SCI so they can't help out the FBI. Apple probably doesn't want to give out an IOS with a backdoor because it could be reverse engineered and used again. Apple is a publicly traded company and it would only take one FBI employee to destroy years of technological advances by inadvertently releasing a backdoor ios.



I think what they want Apple to do is to change the 10 password attempts and it becomes a useless brick..
If that gets "back door'd" then it a matter of brute force and luck to break into the phone..


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## skiNEwhere (Feb 19, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I think what they want Apple to do is to change the 10 password attempts and it becomes a useless brick..
> If that gets "back door'd" then it a matter of brute force and luck to break into the phone..



I once had to figure out the combo to an old 4 digit (0-9) combination lock I found in my house. Took 2 hours with a brute force attack of trying every combo, and that was due to the misfortune of the combination starting with the number "9" and trying 95% of the wrong combos before getting the right one. So it's not hard to brute force it at all (just incredibly tedious) and would probably only take an hour on average.


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## hammer (Feb 19, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> What I find interesting is that I'm sure the NSA or some other government organization has the capability to unlock it, but it's probably classified Top Secret/SCI so they can't help out the FBI.


That's right...FBI agents can't get clearances or access...:roll:


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> I once had to figure out the combo to an old 4 digit (0-9) combination lock I found in my house. Took 2 hours with a brute force attack of trying every combo, and that was due to the misfortune of the combination starting with the number "9" and trying 95% of the wrong combos before getting the right one. So it's not hard to brute force it at all (just incredibly tedious) and would probably only take an hour on average.



I use 8 digits.. safer from the Govt spying on my personal stuff...


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## skiNEwhere (Feb 19, 2016)

hammer said:


> That's right...FBI agents can't get clearances or access...:roll:



Not sure if you've worked with clearances before. Just because you have a top secret doesn't mean you can access everything that's Top Secret. There's SCI, or Sensitive Compartmented Information. Which means if you're designing fail-safe systems for nuclear reactors, you can't access the technical details of the B-52 bomber to find out its radar capabilities (unless you've been granted access to that compartment, which would require a separate investigation and polygraph). The whole system is setup like this because to limit the damage caused by people like hansen, snowden, aimes, etc...

This incident, while tragic, may not be large enough on the NSA and DHS radar for them to reveal that they can crack an iphone, as those departments seem to be focused on stopping large scale, orchestrated attacks.


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

hammer said:


> That's right...FBI agents can't get clearances or access...:roll:



The FBI has possession of the iPhone..


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## hammer (Feb 19, 2016)

skiNEwhere said:


> Not sure if you've worked with clearances before. Just because you have a top secret doesn't mean you can access everything that's Top Secret. There's SCI, or Sensitive Compartmented Information. Which means if you're designing fail-safe systems for nuclear reactors, you can't access the technical details of the B-52 bomber to find out its radar capabilities (unless you've been granted access to that compartment, which would require a separate investigation and polygraph). The whole system is setup like this because to limit the damage caused by people like hansen, snowden, aimes, etc...
> 
> This incident, while tragic, may not be large enough on the NSA and DHS radar for them to reveal that they can crack an iphone, as those departments seem to be focused on stopping large scale, orchestrated attacks.



Yup, got it...need to know and all that stuff.  Still think that where there's a will there's a way...or that no one really knows how to crack the phone and that the FBI is trying to force Apple to come up with a way to do it.


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

I Apple complies - I'm dumping my iPhone..
I'll switch to Droid and encrypt it myself..


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## hammer (Feb 19, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I Apple complies - I'm dumping my iPhone..
> I'll switch to Droid and encrypt it myself..


Do Android phones have a limited number of password attempts?  I've never encrypted data on my phone (have nothing on it worth hiding) so I don't know much about the feature...


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

hammer said:


> Do Android phones have a limited number of password attempts?  I've never encrypted data on my phone (have nothing on it worth hiding) so I don't know much about the feature...



Not sure..  Doubtful

I have a ton of personal stuff on my phone..  Secret work stuff..  and even data thats security level authorized.
It needs to be encrypted...


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## 180 (Feb 19, 2016)

this is a tough question, but lets see Apple has used our country's, laws to make billions and hide billions as well.  They should comply with the law or appeal.  The knew this issue would come up one day.


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## Funky_Catskills (Feb 19, 2016)

Set a horribly bad precedent..

Make a law that every tech company has to make a back door..
But to make them create a new OS to get around this after all of us use Apple for it's security - among other things..
Is just wrong and intrusive..


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## prsboogie (Feb 20, 2016)

hammer said:


> Do Android phones have a limited number of password attempts?  I've never encrypted data on my phone (have nothing on it worth hiding) so I don't know much about the feature...



You can set a numeric or password lock which after 10 attempts, resets to factory including your SD card if you have one. Problem is you don't have to set one


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## darent (Feb 24, 2016)

seems this should never have gone public,by the government going public and taking it to court in put apple on a spot.seems they could have quietly worked something out that wouldn't have opened pandoras box.


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## prsboogie (Feb 24, 2016)

^^this


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## ctenidae (Feb 24, 2016)

darent said:


> seems this should never have gone public,by the government going public and taking it to court in put apple on a spot.seems they could have quietly worked something out that wouldn't have opened pandoras box.



Agree, sort of, but imagine the shitstorm against both Apple and the government if word got out.

Part of me says there should be no expectation of privacy for criminal activity, but to enact that creates a vulnerability that is easily exploited (as all are, eventually). Plus I'm not all for giving the government easier access to snooping tools. It is a thorny problem.


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## prsboogie (Feb 24, 2016)

ctenidae said:


> Agree, sort of, but imagine the shitstorm against both Apple and the government if word got out.
> 
> Part of me says there should be no expectation of privacy for criminal activity, but to enact that creates a vulnerability that is easily exploited (as all are, eventually). Plus I'm not all for giving the government easier access to snooping tools. It is a thorny problem.



You know there used to be a time in this country when things didn't "get out" and we were no worse off for it. Actually I believe we are given way too much information about everything.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 3, 2016)

> *Why does the dispute matter?*
> 
> Simply put, the government contends that cooperation in cases like this could help prevent future terrorist attacks against Americans.
> 
> ...




http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/03/technology/apple-iphone-fbi-fight-explained.html?_r=0


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 3, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> You know there used to be a time in this country when things didn't "get out" and we were no worse off for it. Actually I believe we are given way too much information about everything.



That cause things used to be physically locked up in files..
And stuff happened behind closed doors...

I think the information firehose is good - there just needs to be some balance..  But as a people - we now feel entitled to just about everything because it's easy to get..


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## ctenidae (Mar 3, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I think the information firehose is good - there just needs to be some balance.. But as a people - we now feel entitled to just about everything because it's easy to get..



The trouble is that we, as a society, don't know how to handle the information, in either direction. We put far to much information out there ourselves, and don't know how to control that. We also don't have anything approaching critical thinking skills (exhibit 1, the current political landscape), so we don't know what to do with, or think about, the information we do have access to. 

I can't imagine there's a good historical precedent for the information revolution we're in now. Guttenberg? The Enlightenment? The end of the Dark Ages? Information isn't limited to those who have the resources to access it, so knowledge is no longer power. If everyone has the information, maybe it doesn't matter what information they have. What matters is how they decide to use it. 

I have the utmost confidence in people's ability to misuse it.


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## prsboogie (Mar 3, 2016)

This


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## SkiFanE (Mar 3, 2016)

This +100. I don't trust anyone. The companies that store the data, those that own it. I'm a nut about this stuff . 

I thought apple was asked to allow brute force so they can use machines to break in - but  they can't do that with 10 tries before its wiped. I thought that was an Apple setting - not something you have a choice about (?). 

I applaud Apple. What cracks me up is the hypocrisy of people. "I need guns to protect myself from the government, tyranny!"  Bwahahahaha... Govt doesn't need guns anymore. They can destroy you quickly if they have all your personal information. The fact that people think that the govt needs this backdoor to keep us safe is so fucking ridiculous - it proves people are clueless about tech. You use waze?  Read what info they store about you. Way beyond anything that they need for traffic. Someone subpoenas waze...  Yeah yeah yeah I'm paranoid - the fact that trump has gotten as far as he has is reason enough to think the unthinkable could happen!

today our most personal everything is captured and stored somewhere. And the govt wants the right to get at it. Its like allowing them to have a guy in your house observing your life and listening in on all your calls and doctors appts. 40 years ago we'd have thought that was intrusion....No thanks. I minimize my digital footprint as much as possible nowadays without being a complete ludite lol.

(or Feds are pulling our leg and really have a way but don't want to let that out - lmao....I can only hope they're that smart)


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## prsboogie (Mar 3, 2016)

SkiFanE said:


> This +100. I don't trust anyone. The companies that store the data, those that own it. I'm a nut about this stuff .
> 
> I thought apple was asked to allow brute force so they can use machines to break in - but  they can't do that with 10 tries before its wiped. I thought that was an Apple setting - not something you have a choice about (?).
> 
> ...



I sorry Stef but they already have more information about every single one of us to destroy our lives, including you! It's called the IRS! Talk about people that have the power to ruin lives with no checks and balances 
Edit: everyone who files taxes and has a social that is


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## gmcunni (Mar 22, 2016)

http://fortune.com/2016/03/21/doj-court-hearing-apple-postpone/



> “On Sunday, March 20, 2016, an outside party demonstrated to the FBI a possible method for unlocking Farook’s iPhone,” the federal prosecutors wrote. “Testing is required to determine whether it is a viable method that will not compromise data on Farook’s iPhone. If the method is viable, it should eliminate the need for assistance from Apple.”


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> I sorry Stef but they already have more information about every single one of us to destroy our lives, including you! It's called the IRS! Talk about people that have the power to ruin lives with no checks and balances &#55357;&#56885;
> Edit: everyone who files taxes and has a social that is



yawn.....


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> http://fortune.com/2016/03/21/doj-court-hearing-apple-postpone/



And Apple wants the method of entry too..


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## gmcunni (Mar 28, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> And Apple wants the method of entry too..



yeah, it is a bug they have to fix


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## prsboogie (Mar 28, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> yawn.....



Unnecessary


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> Unnecessary



I disagree.. 

and... so what?


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> yeah, it is a bug they have to fix



It actually will be if they can pull it off..

i doubt they can pull it off...


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## gmcunni (Mar 28, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It actually will be if they can pull it off..
> 
> i doubt they can pull it off...



news tonight is they pulled it off. still won't say who helped them. I hope it was John McAfee

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/03...ne-without-apples-help-ending-court-case.html


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 29, 2016)

I'm glad Apple didn't give in..
And I hope they learn from this to harden the device even more.

What really pisses me off about this is the public nature of the issue..
this could've gone down behind the scenes instead of all the chest thumping..


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