# Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.



## Highway Star (Aug 18, 2010)

You heard it here first folks!!!


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## Puck it (Aug 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You heard it here first folks!!!


 

 With the elevated path and stairway?


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## snowmonster (Aug 18, 2010)

We shall see.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 18, 2010)

I predict a south shore storm that has Blue Hills opening first


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## marcski (Aug 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You heard it here first folks!!!



Hey didn't you predict something this time last year too??


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## Highway Star (Aug 18, 2010)

Puck it said:


> With the elevated path and stairway?


 
......that has Act 250 approval:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/Planning/1R0542-10/Draft Permit.pdf


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## Newpylong (Aug 18, 2010)

Doubtful, but hopefully!

will this walkway follow heavely traverse?


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## riverc0il (Aug 18, 2010)

I LOVE IT!!!

The first big Killington debacle thread! The first big crazy unsubstantiated opening rumor! 

Can winter be far behind?!?!


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## Johnskiismore (Aug 18, 2010)

skiNEwhere said:


> I predict a south shore storm that has Blue Hills opening first



No, YAGOO!!!!


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## gmcunni (Aug 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.



define "open"  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> ......that has Act 250 approval:
> 
> http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/Planning/1R0542-10/Draft Permit.pdf


 

Very interesting.........


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## millerm277 (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually, with that path, they've got at least a good chance. Killington does have plenty of hydrants and concentrated firepower up in the Glades, and Rime isn't too difficult to cover with a WROD.


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## frankm938 (Aug 19, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You heard it here first folks!!!



i thought you were leaving killington for a different mountain this season.   what happened during the off season to change your mind?


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## Vortex (Aug 19, 2010)

I give the credit to jerseyjoey.  He said this previously and has bets with some of us.

Competition is good.  I think K has the elevation advantage.  Its a matter of wanting to do it. Very possible if they can get people up and  back out of the upper mountain. Sounds like a change of heart after the early close last year.

Sr will open as soon as they can.   Length of season is A huge deal to me. HYS you were right on about them not being open for turkey day last year.

We shall see.

permit says for summer use, or that is how i read it.


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## Puck it (Aug 19, 2010)

Where is this "Stairway to Heaven" going to run?  Is it going over the Heavenly Traverse?


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## skiadikt (Aug 19, 2010)

Bob R said:


> I give the credit to jerseyjoey.  He said this previously and has bets with some of us.
> 
> Competition is good.  I think K has the elevation advantage.  Its a matter of wanting to do it. Very possible if they can get people up and  back out of the upper mountain. Sounds like a change of heart after the early close last year.
> 
> ...



actually says "also" summer use. says the permit is good until oct 1, 2014, so they have 4 yrs to implement it.


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## millerm277 (Aug 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Where is this "Stairway to Heaven" going to run?  Is it going over the Heavenly Traverse?



The permit says from the top of the Glades Triple, which means Heavenly Traverse.


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## Puck it (Aug 19, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> The permit says from the top of the Glades Triple, which means Heavenly Traverse.


 

What I thought too. So that trail is gone.


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## Black Phantom (Aug 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> What I thought too. So that trail is gone.



Not necessarily. That trail fills in nicely with snow once the season starts. Walking through there in the summer one would wonder how it could ever be skied. If it gets "filled in" properly as walkway it could still stand alone as a trail once the "season" really starts to kick in.


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## mondeo (Aug 19, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> Actually, with that path, they've got at least a good chance. Killington does have plenty of hydrants and concentrated firepower up in the Glades, and Rime isn't too difficult to cover with a WROD.


If they get it up an running by mid-October, I don't see how they don't open first if they want. They were close last year as it was, but Bunny Buster kills them. 3-4 degrees from altitude is worth a week, northern exposure maybe another week. Haloween off the NRT should pretty much be a gimme.


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## Vortex (Aug 19, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> actually says "also" summer use. says the permit is good until oct 1, 2014, so they have 4 yrs to implement it.




thanks good news.


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## Riverskier (Aug 19, 2010)

Agree with Bob R, competition is good. Personally I don't even care if they do open before Sunday River. As long as Sunday River continues to open as soon as possible, I am happy. That said, I just don't see this happening. This is the same company that closed a week earlier than promised to try and save a couple bucks. Closed on a Saturday to avoid a new payroll cycle. The stories go on, but now they are going to blow several hundred thousand dollars worth of snow in October, run 2 lifts, and make their paying customers walk up a massive staircase in ski boots carrying skis? I just don't see it, but time will tell......


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## millerm277 (Aug 19, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> The stories go on, but now they are going to blow several hundred thousand dollars worth of snow in October, run 2 lifts, and make their paying customers walk up a massive staircase in ski boots carrying skis? I just don't see it, but time will tell......



A 750ft walk with some stairs, isn't particularly difficult, especially if you're only doing it once or twice a day to go back to the peak. Hell, if they want, they could probably even charge people $1 and run a snowmobile to bring their equipment back up for them. (Obviously you couldn't with the people, for liability reasons.)

Anyway, killington HAS been making plenty of snow up there early the past few seasons, and then just letting it melt while they can't make snow to the bottom.


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## Vortex (Aug 19, 2010)

Riverskier no secret where you and I are going.:razz:

Be good for the entire sport if more places open early and closed late. I skied late season  for a few years with the K crew.  Good bunch of people who tail gate well.:beer:

  Early season I think is a more regional thing.  ie mostly pass holders and locals. A few k people came over to the River last year early season, but not in large masses.  Opening early helps at trade shows and booking of ski vacations and Season pass sales. We were open since..... We closed then.  Must be a good place to ski. 

I am confident I will ski early and late Season on my pass. Sounds like Vermont will too.


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## Riverskier (Aug 19, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> A 750ft walk with some stairs, isn't particularly difficult, especially if you're only doing it once or twice a day to go back to the peak. Hell, if they want, they could probably even charge people $1 and run a snowmobile to bring their equipment back up for them. (Obviously you couldn't with the people, for liability reasons.)
> 
> Anyway, killington HAS been making plenty of snow up there early the past few seasons, and then just letting it melt while they can't make snow to the bottom.



Just don't see it happening. Obviously I have no idea though, and truly hope they make it happen. Again, time will tell...


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## bigbob (Aug 19, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> A 750ft walk with some stairs, isn't particularly difficult, especially if you're only doing it once or twice a day to go back to the peak. Hell, if they want, they could probably even charge people $1 and run a snowmobile to bring their equipment back up for them. (Obviously you couldn't with the people, for liability reasons.)
> 
> Anyway, killington HAS been making plenty of snow up there early the past few seasons, and then just letting it melt while they can't make snow to the bottom.



 I have a season pass to both places, so it just comes down to do I drive 130 miles east or west.

 I wonder if they will let us bring our own snowmobiles??


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## neil (Aug 19, 2010)

I will be amazed if Killington opens before SR. Amazed.


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## jerryg (Aug 19, 2010)

That walkway will come in handy when it's actually built. Hey, maybe they can connect K-ton and Pico...


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## snoseek (Aug 20, 2010)

jerryg said:


> That walkway will come in handy when it's actually built. Hey, maybe they can connect K-ton and Pico...



Comletely off topic, I don't even know what this thread is about but what days are you at the river this winter. I'm going to maybe (gasp) be skiing Sundays along with mondays and maybe some other random midweek day. I'm actually pretty stoked to spend the winter back here!!!

O.K. carry on with whatever this thread is about.....


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## bigbob (Aug 20, 2010)

snoseek said:


> Comletely off topic, I don't even know what this thread is about but what days are you at the river this winter. I'm going to maybe (gasp) be skiing Sundays along with mondays and maybe some other random midweek day. I'm actually pretty stoked to spend the winter back here!!!
> 
> O.K. carry on with whatever this thread is about.....



 Sundays are usually less crowded than Saturdays. At Sunday River, if all the lifts are running, crowds usually thin out with the exception of Lift #1 and the Chondola, which have lines.
 Are you living in Epping yet?


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## jerryg (Aug 20, 2010)

snoseek said:


> Comletely off topic, I don't even know what this thread is about but what days are you at the river this winter. I'm going to maybe (gasp) be skiing Sundays along with mondays and maybe some other random midweek day. I'm actually pretty stoked to spend the winter back here!!!
> 
> O.K. carry on with whatever this thread is about.....



Like Bigbob said, Sunday are not bust at SR except for perhaps vacation weeks. I ski weekends and some Fridays and Wednesdays at SR. SR isn't nearly as busy is I recall it being, but over the years, people really have learned to spread out and pick a pod. I still stay away from the Barker Quad on weekend days. It'll be good to see ya!


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## Vortex (Aug 20, 2010)

snowseek pm sent.

I never understand how so many people at Sunday River don't work 5 days a week.  ow big time jealousy.  Jerry are you allowed a big boy pass this year?:grin:

 I doubt I will miss a weekend this year after November.

  I take 3 weeks off in the season usually, and it works out that I end up taking a 3 day weekend every other weekend.  I usually take Friday when its not a holiday and all the Holiday time falls on a Monday.


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## snoseek (Aug 20, 2010)

bigbob said:


> Sundays are usually less crowded than Saturdays. At Sunday River, if all the lifts are running, crowds usually thin out with the exception of Lift #1 and the Chondola, which have lines.
> Are you living in Epping yet?



I'm a fan of White Cap anyway, it never used to get too bad over there. I'm in Epping/Lee most of the time. Actually I'm working most of the time lol.

Off to work now in fact....


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## thetrailboss (Aug 20, 2010)

The last time I went into the White Cap Lodge (which was 2007...I did not use it this season) I was stunned as to how shopworn it was.


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## snowmonster (Aug 20, 2010)

Welcome back to the East, snoseek! The tube park at Sunday River misses you!

TB, I agree that White Cap is showing its age and needs some work. Too bad because I used to ski out of that lodge a lot.


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## bigbob (Aug 20, 2010)

We used to start at White Cap also, but now start out of South Ridge. White cap was getting all the busloads of high school kids or when a race was going on, all the racers. With the redundant bars and the stage, the lodge is pretty small for booting up in the AM, somewhat of a zoo!


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## mondeo (Aug 20, 2010)

Wuh...what's going on here? I'm confused. It seems like a Killington thread's been hijacked and turned into a Sunday River thread.

Bizarro AZ?


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## snoseek (Aug 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Wuh...what's going on here? I'm confused. It seems like a Killington thread's been hijacked and turned into a Sunday River thread.
> 
> Bizarro AZ?



I still have not a clue what the thread was about but I assume it would only go downhill fast.

That said the skiers at Sunday River are an awesome crew along with everyone that works there. I'm actually super stoked to make it my home mountain this winter along with a couple 10 day western safaris


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## mondeo (Aug 20, 2010)

snoseek said:


> I still have not a clue what the thread was about but I assume it would only go downhill fast.
> 
> That said the skiers at Sunday River are an awesome crew along with everyone that works there. I'm actually super stoked to make it my home mountain this winter along with a couple 10 day western safaris


Ah, I guess it's actually not all that clear. Killington filed for a permit for a walkway from the top of the Glades/North Ridge triple to the gondola, which would allow them to open with snowmaking only down to ~3400 feet instead of ~2400 feet and avoid the nasty Eastern exposure coming back to the gondola at the bottom. As they have been right on the heels of Sunday River the last few years in opening, and this should buy them a window for opening with temperatures around 5 degrees warmer than going down to the gondola, with the walkway Sunday River needs a weird weather pattern to have even a shot at being able to open before Killington can.

Of course, if Killington builds it and then doesn't use it, then all hell will break loose.


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## Newpylong (Aug 21, 2010)

Where Sunday River lacks in height they almost make up for in geography. Even if K does use the stairs they wouldn't be a shoe-in.

Let's not forget the early openings at SR are not exactly a new thing. Historically they have opened in October when Killington has as well. I believe in 96 they were open on 10/4, just after the Big K opened. But in those days everyone assumed Killington would be first so no one really fought them for the rights.





mondeo said:


> Ah, I guess it's actually not all that clear. Killington filed for a permit for a walkway from the top of the Glades/North Ridge triple to the gondola, which would allow them to open with snowmaking only down to ~3400 feet instead of ~2400 feet and avoid the nasty Eastern exposure coming back to the gondola at the bottom. As they have been right on the heels of Sunday River the last few years in opening, and this should buy them a window for opening with temperatures around 5 degrees warmer than going down to the gondola, with the walkway Sunday River needs a weird weather pattern to have even a shot at being able to open before Killington can.
> 
> Of course, if Killington builds it and then doesn't use it, then all hell will break loose.


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Where Sunday River lacks in height they almost make up for in geography. Even if K does use the stairs they wouldn't be a shoe-in.


 http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/USME0273?climoMonth=10
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/05751?climoMonth=10

Newry is at 700 ft elevation, Killington at 1300 ft. T2 mid-station at 2000ft, NRT bottom at 3400 feet, so subtract 5 degrees from Newry's averages and 7 from Killington, Killington has a 5 degree advantage at the base of necessary snowmaking. With cold snaps, 5 degrees may not matter. But if it's marginal, that's a big edge in Killington's favor. Going down to the gondola, they only have a 1.5 degree advantage, negated by the Eastern exposure of lower bunny buster.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/USME0273?climoMonth=10
> http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/daily/05751?climoMonth=10
> 
> Newry is at 700 ft elevation, Killington at 1300 ft. T2 mid-station at 2000ft, NRT bottom at 3400 feet, so subtract 5 degrees from Newry's averages and 7 from Killington, Killington has a 5 degree advantage at the base of necessary snowmaking. With cold snaps, 5 degrees may not matter. But if it's marginal, that's a big edge in Killington's favor. Going down to the gondola, they only have a 1.5 degree advantage, negated by the Eastern exposure of lower bunny buster.



Killington at 1300'?  maybe the base of skyship....KBL = 2500'


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> Killington at 1300'? maybe the base of skyship....KBL = 2500'


Town of Killington, where the average temperature data is for (if it's not actually Rutland.)


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## Newpylong (Aug 21, 2010)

Who cares about elevation if they aren't willing to take advantage of it though?


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Who cares about elevation if they aren't willing to take advantage of it though?


 


mondeo said:


> ... *with the walkway* Sunday River needs a weird weather pattern to have even a shot at being able to open before Killington *can*.
> 
> *Of course, if Killington builds it and then doesn't use it, then all hell will break loose*.


Right now, SR has a slight edge in the early season set-up. But Killington's actually done a fairly decent job the last couple years opening as soon as they can. They might've been able to match SR last year, they had NRT covered, just not lower Bunny (also, they may have still been installing the fan gun at the mixing bowl and not wanting skiers going past heavy machinery.) Year before, they were open a day later. As much as people give them crap about late season, early season they've done a fairly good job.

I'm guessing the walkway is a feeler for the market for what a 2 week monopoly gets them and the appetite for downloading off the gondola. If successful, it might push up the timetable for redoing the peak lodge, putting some sort of early season lift, going early on NRT and faster high altitude expansion than they'd bother with in the past. I mean, what would a walkway cost them? $10K, max? Pays off with 200 lift tickets beyond operations break even, probably saves $10K in snowmaking waste first year anyways when they don't have to blow lower Bunny until they're sure it can stay for a bit.


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## Geoff (Aug 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm guessing the walkway is a feeler for the market for what a 2 week monopoly gets them and the appetite for downloading off the gondola. If successful, it might push up the timetable for redoing the peak lodge, putting some sort of early season lift, going early on NRT and faster high altitude expansion than they'd bother with in the past. I mean, what would a walkway cost them? $10K, max? Pays off with 200 lift tickets beyond operations break even, probably saves $10K in snowmaking waste first year anyways when they don't have to blow lower Bunny until they're sure it can stay for a bit.



What really matters is the number of season pass sales they have lost by contracting their season.   Killington's midwinter product sucks.  If you take away the spring and fall skiing, the value proposition is lousy compared to points farther north.

I imagine their season pass sales have been a total disaster since they took ownership.   They have to give people a reason to come back.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 21, 2010)

Geoff said:


> What really matters is the number of season pass sales they have lost by contracting their season.   Killington's midwinter product sucks.  If you take away the spring and fall skiing, the value proposition is lousy compared to points farther north.
> 
> I imagine their season pass sales have been a total disaster since they took ownership.   They have to give people a reason to come back.



I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good.  This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.

true?


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good. This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.
> 
> true?


I thought it was great given the lack of natural available.

Also, a good chunk of Killington's value proposition is its location. I'll drive 2.5 hours every weekend to Killington, 3.5 to Sugarbush isn't worth it over what Killington offers and it's a significantly better midwinter product than closer mountains.


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## Geoff (Aug 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I could be way off here, but I thought last year's mid-winter product was supposedly quite good.  This is me not skiing there, just that my perceived general feedback in these forums was that it was better than the prior years of Powd'r ownership.
> 
> true?



Killington was bogus last year.   Stowe and Jay Peak had a bunch of orographic lift events that missed Killington completely.   Other than the 6 foot storm which was not exactly champagne powder, Killington had pretty much zilch for natural snow from New Years through the end of the year.    If your idea of great skiing is McSludge (tm) out of low E guns that has been groomed to death, Killington was your place.   That's the Sunday River product I loathe.   If you wanted a nice soft natural snow surface with good tree skiing, Killington didn't have much of that last winter.

Killington gets far too much traffic to have a consistent soft natural snow surface.   Sure, it blows away Okemo and points south but Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, and Jay are all far superior to anything Killington can offer.   Killington is all about spring skiing.   When they close in April and contract the mountain dramatically after the first weekend in April, points farther north with the same or longer spring season have the same value proposition.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Also, a good chunk of Killington's value proposition is its location. I'll drive 2.5 hours every weekend to Killington, 3.5 to Sugarbush isn't worth it over what Killington offers and it's a significantly better midwinter product than closer mountains.



Yes - go to Killington.  Sugarbush sucks.  Awful vibe.  Trails way too empty.  Too few cat tracks intersecting trails.  No sidecountry.  Lousy old base facilities.  Please do stay away.


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Yes - go to Killington. Sugarbush sucks. Awful vibe. Trails way too empty. Too few cat tracks intersecting trails. No sidecountry. Lousy old base facilities. Please do stay away.


I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.

Nice reading comprehension.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.



I can appreciate this statement 100%.

I ski at Ragged because of the convenience.  Convenience matters very much in the modern world.  Ragged is only 35 minutes closer to me than Cannon, 45 closer than Wildcat.  Both areas I vastly prefer.  The time savings for me are worth it despite the inferior product.

If I were a 'weekend' skier, the K product would be good enough for me over northern product in order to shave an hour off the commute time both legs of the trip.


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## jerryg (Aug 22, 2010)

I think something that has been lost here is that Killington hasn't built this raised walkway and I haven't heard them make public mention of it aside from the permit filing. Getting a permit really just means that they have between now and 2014 to build this, but that doesn't mean they will. 

Ha, Bob, I did downgrade to a silver pass last year for the first time because I wasn't using the pass during vacation weeks. Same goes for this year. Besides, Julie's folks get us buddy tickets on blackout days, but there really aren't many blackout days that aren't school vacations.


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## mondeo (Aug 22, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I think something that has been lost here is that Killington hasn't built this raised walkway and I haven't heard them make public mention of it aside from the permit filing. Getting a permit really just means that they have between now and 2014 to build this, but that doesn't mean they will.


http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/mountain-improvements-continue


> In addition, we are undergoing the permitting process for a number of other projects. More information on those projects in future _Killington Insiders_



It's not like a walkway takes that long to build, for something like this I don't see why they'd apply for a permit without planning on doing it fairly quickly. It's not like they need to order long lead time materials that they'd want to have approval before purchasing, or anything like that.


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## Edd (Aug 22, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Ha, Bob, I did downgrade to a silver pass last year for the first time because I wasn't using the pass during vacation weeks. Same goes for this year. Besides, Julie's folks get us buddy tickets on blackout days, but there really aren't many blackout days that aren't school vacations.



I'm downgrading to a bronze this year because I realized I rarely ski the River on Sundays and never Saturdays.


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## frankm938 (Aug 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Killington was bogus last year.   Stowe and Jay Peak had a bunch of orographic lift events that missed Killington completely.   Other than the 6 foot storm which was not exactly champagne powder, Killington had pretty much zilch for natural snow from New Years through the end of the year.    If your idea of great skiing is McSludge (tm) out of low E guns that has been groomed to death, Killington was your place.   That's the Sunday River product I loathe.   If you wanted a nice soft natural snow surface with good tree skiing, Killington didn't have much of that last winter.
> 
> Killington gets far too much traffic to have a consistent soft natural snow surface.   Sure, it blows away Okemo and points south but Sugarbush, Mad River, Stowe, and Jay are all far superior to anything Killington can offer.   Killington is all about spring skiing.   When they close in April and contract the mountain dramatically after the first weekend in April, points farther north with the same or longer spring season have the same value proposition.



sounds like you will be joining highway star at a different mtn next season?  i know i would go somewhere else if i felt there were better options.


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## frankm938 (Aug 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I never said Killington had better skiing than Sugarbush. I said it was an hour closer, and it's still good enough to hold my attention for a full season.
> 
> Nice reading comprehension.



god forbid anyone on AZ dare to like killington better than sugarbush!!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> god forbid anyone on AZ dare to like killington better than sugarbush!!


 
There aren't too many that do.

The only thing I can see that Killington has on SB is the apres ski scene. Yes it is larger, but....


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## jerryg (Aug 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/mountain-improvements-continue
> [/I]
> It's not like a walkway takes that long to build, for something like this I don't see why they'd apply for a permit without planning on doing it fairly quickly. It's not like they need to order long lead time materials that they'd want to have approval before purchasing, or anything like that.



It's good to see the improvements being made and believe me, I think that it would be great if Killington were to get this project moving right away, but the Killington or eastern lore and that of the one being operated by Powdr are two different things and two different philosophies. The project is not as minor as you would think. I see it for next season, but it may be too late for this year. If they do it for this season - great! The more resorts willing to push for early openings, the better. Perhaps it'll push Boyne to utilize the set-up the SL has, which would be perfect for early season, skiing, but not likely.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 22, 2010)

jerryg said:


> The project is not as minor as you would think. I see it for next season, but it may be too late for this year.



I'll be walking up those stairs in a couple months....will you?


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## Geoff (Aug 22, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> sounds like you will be joining highway star at a different mtn next season?  i know i would go somewhere else if i felt there were better options.



I'm kind of locked in with real estate that is pretty much unsellable in this market.   With POWDR killing off 30% of the skier visits and the overall recession, Killington real estate is a mess.   If I were going to stay in Vermont, there's no way I'd every buy real estate in the state again.   It's a sucker play.


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## Geoff (Aug 22, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> There aren't too many that do.
> 
> The only thing I can see that Killington has on SB is the apres ski scene. Yes it is larger, but....



In a lousy year, the infinite water supply and big snowmaking budget from all those skier visits gives Killington an advantage.  It's not the surface most of us would prefer to ski on but it's better than "trail closed" and "think cover".

When Killington offered a reliable 7 month season, the value proposition was better.   When Superstar and Steins close on the same day and Jay Peak runs a week later than Killington, the only advantage in an average or good year is in November and December when Killington can run 3x more snow guns.   If you're buying day tickets once everything is open on natural snow, points farther north in Vermont are the better option.


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## jerryg (Aug 22, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> I'll be walking up those stairs in a couple months....will you?



If Sunday River isn't open and those stairs are built, sure. Not sold on a permit meaning inevitable 2010/11 construction just yet though. Didn't they get the permit for the interconnect years back?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2010)

Even if the Heavenly Stairwell is constructed this year, I'll wait for SR to open.

Killington's early season pricing the past couple of years has been a total rip off.  What was it last year? $65 for their WROD product?  Think I paid $25 for the same at SR.  Maybe it was $35, but no more than that.  Either way, what's the incentive for anyone in the Boston market to pay double for the same product?


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## mondeo (Aug 22, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Even if the Heavenly Stairwell is constructed this year, I'll wait for SR to open.
> 
> Killington's early season pricing the past couple of years has been a total rip off. What was it last year? $65 for their WROD product? Think I paid $25 for the same at SR. Maybe it was $35, but no more than that. Either way, what's the incentive for anyone in the Boston market to pay double for the same product?


I had to park in the Vale lot once or twice last year those first few weekends. If they charged any less it would've been completely FUBAR on the mountain.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 22, 2010)

jerryg said:


> If Sunday River isn't open and those stairs are built, sure. Not sold on a permit meaning inevitable 2010/11 construction just yet though. Didn't they get the permit for the interconnect years back?



haha, the interconnect.


----------



## Greg (Aug 22, 2010)

Killington cant hold a candle to Sugarbush terrain/conditions/crowd-wise. HOWEVER, it is an hour closer and for me that's the difference between a day trip and an overnight. So...I like 'em both.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I had to park in the Vale lot once or twice last year those first few weekends. If they charged any less it would've been completely FUBAR on the mountain.



Mainly season pass holders?  Lots of NY/NJ plates?

I really can't see how anyone from the Boston market would choose K over SR for early season skiing.


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## gmcunni (Aug 22, 2010)

i can't do a day trip from SNE to SR so if K is open and i want to ski that's where i'd be, regardless of price.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 22, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Mainly season pass holders?  Lots of NY/NJ plates?
> 
> I really can't see how anyone from the Boston market would choose K over SR for early season skiing.



there are still quite a few boston folks that head this way.

that said, the Loaf/SR/Loon combo is pretty sweet...


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## frankm938 (Aug 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Killington cant hold a candle to Sugarbush terrain/conditions/crowd-wise. HOWEVER, it is an hour closer and for me that's the difference between a day trip and an overnight. So...I like 'em both.



im not saying i dont like sugarbush, its one of my favorite eastern mountains.  my brother has had a house there for 20 years and ive spent a lot of time there and have been a pass holder.  the main reason i switched to killington is there arent as many bad days due to the snowmaking.   every mtn is fun when it snows, but when the weather is bad, killington has the firepower to make the trails skiable.
they get the same amount of natural snow (250" per year)
sugarbush has better OB tree skiing.  the inbounds is a wash. (they both are great if you know where to look)
sugarbush has more classic new england  trails like rumble (which is one of the best in the east) but overall killington is steeper.
killington used to be better for bumps, bush passed them when powder took over.  powder has since changed their mind about bumps...  they are grooming less and seeding a number of trails
the crowds have been down at killington in the last few years but its still less crowded at the bush
bush has MUCH better lodges, killington has better nitelife.
so bottom line...
mid-week powder day both are great
wknd powder day... edge-sugarbush
hasnt snowed in a couple weeks... killington


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## Greg (Aug 22, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> im not saying i dont like sugarbush, its one of my favorite eastern mountains.  my brother has had a house there for 20 years and ive spent a lot of time there and have been a pass holder.  the main reason i switched to killington is there arent as many bad days due to the snowmaking.   every mtn is fun when it snows, but when the weather is bad, killington has the firepower to make the trails skiable.
> they get the same amount of natural snow (250" per year)
> sugarbush has better OB tree skiing.  the inbounds is a wash. (they both are great if you know where to look)
> sugarbush has more classic new england  trails like rumble (which is one of the best in the east) but overall killington is steeper.
> ...



Reasonable observation. Not sure about 250" thing though. SB usually "feels" like there is more snow. Throw MRG into the mix and in a good season, the MRV is still my favorite.


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## Newpylong (Aug 22, 2010)

Killington get's an average of 200 inches per year, Sugarbush is 260 inches...




frankm938 said:


> im not saying i dont like sugarbush, its one of my favorite eastern mountains.  my brother has had a house there for 20 years and ive spent a lot of time there and have been a pass holder.  the main reason i switched to killington is there arent as many bad days due to the snowmaking.   every mtn is fun when it snows, but when the weather is bad, killington has the firepower to make the trails skiable.
> they get the same amount of natural snow (250" per year)
> sugarbush has better OB tree skiing.  the inbounds is a wash. (they both are great if you know where to look)
> sugarbush has more classic new england  trails like rumble (which is one of the best in the east) but overall killington is steeper.
> ...


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## Geoff (Aug 22, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> How so? It's 160 miles or so from Boston to Killington and about 175 from Boston to Sunday River. The roads are slower so you're about 20 minutes longer going to SR. Not really a deal breaker though...



Southern New England is not Boston.   That's as far east as you can get in Southern New England and Sunday River is still longer with significantly more secondary roads from there.


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## Geoff (Aug 22, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Killington get's an average of 200 inches per year, Sugarbush is 260 inches...



Where did you  dream that number up from?


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## frankm938 (Aug 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Reasonable observation. Not sure about 250" thing though. SB usually "feels" like there is more snow. Throw MRG into the mix and in a good season, the MRV is still my favorite.



ya, a mid-week powder day at mad river is about as good as it gets in the east.  i stay away from the place on wknds (the line at the single chair can be brutal)
the snow totals for killington and the MRV  are very close.
many AZers put sugarbush into the mix with jay peak and stowe  when it comes to snowfall and it just doesnt get as much snow as the places further north.


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## frankm938 (Aug 22, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Killington get's an average of 200 inches per year, Sugarbush is 260 inches...



over the last 25 years killington has 200 or less inches only 4 times.
on average they get 250".  sugarbush may get a few more inches per year but not a significant difference to say one is better than the other in terms of powder.  jay gets the eastern pow award every year


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## riverc0il (Aug 22, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> over the last 25 years killington has 200 or less inches only 4 times.
> on average they get 250".  sugarbush may get a few more inches per year but not a significant difference to say one is better than the other in terms of powder.  jay gets the eastern pow award every year


I don't know about that. As a powder hound myself, I am always trying to analyze mountains for the best snowfall in various storms. If choosing between the two based on natural snow only, I would choose Bush nine times out of ten (occasionally, Killington does line up with something that hits them with more snow than Bush). Bush has a lot of skiing at elevation where the snow is deepest and they get a good amount of lift whereas I just don't see K getting the same type of lift and not much of their terrain is way up off the summit (and the trails that do come off the summit are not their best whereas a lot of Bush's best stuff is up high). Add in opportunities to escape the crowds which can preserve natural snow and OB/off map, and I think Bush is hands down a better powder mountain than Killington in every way. I don't have the total averages but I read enough reports and can read between the lines enough that I see a lot of times when Bush skiers report epicness when K is merely really good.


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## Newpylong (Aug 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Southern New England is not Boston.   That's as far east as you can get in Southern New England and Sunday River is still longer with significantly more secondary roads from there.




I saw that he wrote Southern NE and not Southeastern MA right after I posted, so I deleted the post I made. So yeah, he is right....


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## Newpylong (Aug 22, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Where did you  dream that number up from?



I got the wrong number, you don't need to be a dink about it. 250 inches it is for Killington - per their page. 262 for Sugarbush.


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## drjeff (Aug 22, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I don't know about that. As a powder hound myself, I am always trying to analyze mountains for the best snowfall in various storms. If choosing between the two based on natural snow only, I would choose Bush nine times out of ten (occasionally, Killington does line up with something that hits them with more snow than Bush). Bush has a lot of skiing at elevation where the snow is deepest and they get a good amount of lift whereas I just don't see K getting the same type of lift and not much of their terrain is way up off the summit (and the trails that do come off the summit are not their best whereas a lot of Bush's best stuff is up high). Add in opportunities to escape the crowds which can preserve natural snow and OB/off map, and I think Bush is hands down a better powder mountain than Killington in every way. I don't have the total averages but I read enough reports and can read between the lines enough that I see a lot of times when Bush skiers report epicness when K is merely really good.



With all due respect to the Killington breathern here and there TR enthusiasm - I seriously wonder if some of the difference between the "epic" Bush pow day TR's and the merely "really good" K pow day TR's has to do more with the standards and expectations of the "average" K local/diehard vs those of the "average" Bush local/diehard - since those there is usually quite a difference between those two types of people


----------



## Geoff (Aug 22, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I don't know about that. As a powder hound myself, I am always trying to analyze mountains for the best snowfall in various storms. If choosing between the two based on natural snow only, I would choose Bush nine times out of ten (occasionally, Killington does line up with something that hits them with more snow than Bush). Bush has a lot of skiing at elevation where the snow is deepest and they get a good amount of lift whereas I just don't see K getting the same type of lift and not much of their terrain is way up off the summit (and the trails that do come off the summit are not their best whereas a lot of Bush's best stuff is up high). Add in opportunities to escape the crowds which can preserve natural snow and OB/off map, and I think Bush is hands down a better powder mountain than Killington in every way. I don't have the total averages but I read enough reports and can read between the lines enough that I see a lot of times when Bush skiers report epicness when K is merely really good.



The difference isn't snowfall amount, it's the sheer number of skiers who show up on a powder day and total uphill capacity.   On any Killington powder day, it tracks out in a hurry.   Sugarbush has about 500 acres.   Killington about 750 but a big chunk of it is useless.      Killington can push 37,500 people up the hill per hour.     Sugarbush about 25,000.   I really can't speak to Sugarbush but at Killington on a powder day, every chair goes up full all morning.   If Killington gets a foot of snow on a Wednesday night, there will be no evidence of it by the time the weekenders get to it on Saturday morning.   This creates the whole fiction about Killington lying in their snow reports.   If anything, they under report a little.

The sidecountry at Sugarbush wins hands-down.   The Bucklin Trail at Killington is fun once in a blue moon but it's a pain in the neck getting a car to Wheelerville Road.

Compare that to Mad River where you have a single chair that moves 600 skiers per hour.   The surface will be good days afterwards.


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## mondeo (Aug 22, 2010)

Alright, this is more like it.


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## bigbog (Aug 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You heard it here first folks!!!....



Would be good for K, but my $.02 intuition is that this seals the deal for an early dump up here in Maine.....
Grabbing new(2010) powskis on Wednesday!...WoooHooo.


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## Edd (Aug 22, 2010)

In addition to Killington's skier traffic burden, I wonder if they suffer greater temperature swings being further south.  An obvious disadvantage.


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## mondeo (Aug 23, 2010)

bigbog said:


> Would be good for K, but my $.02 intuition is that this seals the deal for an early dump up here in Maine.....
> Grabbing new(2010) powskis on Wednesday!...WoooHooo.


You just contradicted yourself. Obviously the purchase of powder skis trumps all other jinxing activity.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Aug 23, 2010)

Edd said:


> In addition to Killington's skier traffic burden, I wonder if they suffer greater temperature swings being further south.  An obvious disadvantage.



Only been going to Killington for a few years (5 or 6), but I would agree with your statement.  I have never been to the Bush, but several of the "Pow Days" at Killington have been a bit of a dissapointment.  5 or 6 of the midweek storms I have hit (last 2 or 3 years) were mixed with sleet and/or they have had inversion.  I had to chuckle when I read the next days reports and it says 18-24inches.  And of course there is always the high winds that make the trails shitty, but the woods nice.  Granted the conditions could have been exactly the same at other mountains.

In all fairness though, I have also been there when they have clearly under reported as well.


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## Puck it (Aug 23, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Only been going to Killington for a few years (5 or 6), but I would agree with your statement. I have never been to the Bush, but several of the "Pow Days" at Killington have been a bit of a dissapointment. 5 or 6 of the midweek storms I have hit (last 2 or 3 years) were mixed with sleet and/or they have had inversion. I had to chuckle when I read the next days reports and it says 18-24inches. And of course there is always the high winds that make the trails shitty, but the woods nice. Granted the conditions could have been exactly the same at other mountains.
> 
> In all fairness though, I have also been there when they have clearly under reported as well.


 

I like when the wind blows the goods into the woods.  All the more for me.


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## skiadikt (Aug 23, 2010)

geoff is right about the skier density thing at k. almost too much uphill capacity (which is why many of us are against an hsq on snowden). the hordes come out on a powday and most trails are tracked out within a half hour to an hour max. you gotta have a plan of attack. like everywhere else, it's a very "competitive" situation. on-map trees last a bit longer. by lunch you're definitely hitting your "stashes". if the powday is on a friday, by saturday it's like it didn't snow.

back to the stairway to heaven ... after last season's closing a week early debacle, i still don't see them doing this unless there's been a major shift in attitude/policy. they have shown no inclination in the past to risk losing any of their profit. i think sr's early opening supremacy is safe.


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## Highway Star (Aug 23, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm guessing the walkway is a feeler for the market for what a 2 week monopoly gets them and the appetite for downloading off the gondola. If successful, it might push up the timetable for redoing the peak lodge, putting some sort of early season lift, going early on NRT and faster high altitude expansion than they'd bother with in the past. *I mean, what would a walkway cost them? $10K, max?* Pays off with 200 lift tickets beyond operations break even, probably saves $10K in snowmaking waste first year anyways when they don't have to blow lower Bunny until they're sure it can stay for a bit.


 
That $10k number sounds pretty unrealistic...you could easily spend that much on a  very nice deck for a house or business.  The walkway probably has to be 3 to 5 feet wide, with stairs, railings, metal grating for a surface, concrete footings....plus it's at 4000ft on a mountain.  Is it going to be wood or metal (aluminum?) construction?  Pre-fab metal or scratch built?  It needs to have proper plans made up.  Labor is tough to judge because it might be built or assisted by in-house staff.  

I would guess more in the $30-50K+ range.  I would also guess they could put it up in a few weeks with a good sized crew, so you would think they would need to start it in the next few weeks to have it ready by mid October.  Possible, but we'll see...


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## frankm938 (Aug 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> That $10k number sounds pretty unrealistic...you could easily spend that much on a  very nice deck for a house or business.  The walkway probably has to be 3 to 5 feet wide, with stairs, railings, metal grating for a surface, concrete footings....plus it's at 4000ft on a mountain.  Is it going to be wood or metal (aluminum?) construction?  Pre-fab metal or scratch built?  It needs to have proper plans made up.  Labor is tough to judge because it might be built or assisted by in-house staff.
> 
> I would guess more in the $30-50K+ range.  I would also guess they could put it up in a few weeks with a good sized crew, so you would think they would need to start it in the next few weeks to have it ready by mid October.  Possible, but we'll see...



does this mean you are staying at killington this season?


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## Johnskiismore (Aug 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> That $10k number sounds pretty unrealistic...you could easily spend that much on a  very nice deck for a house or business.  The walkway probably has to be 3 to 5 feet wide, with stairs, railings, metal grating for a surface, concrete footings....plus it's at 4000ft on a mountain.  Is it going to be wood or metal (aluminum?) construction?  Pre-fab metal or scratch built?  It needs to have proper plans made up.  Labor is tough to judge because it might be built or assisted by in-house staff.
> 
> I would guess more in the $30-50K+ range.  I would also guess they could put it up in a few weeks with a good sized crew, so you would think they would need to start it in the next few weeks to have it ready by mid October.  Possible, but we'll see...



In agreement, no way 10K, I would put it at least 50K.  My deck is 448sf and was about half the number in question with no frills if you will.


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## Newpylong (Aug 23, 2010)

I agree, I think it would be in the 50K range if not more...


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## Vortex (Aug 24, 2010)

Be a curious month of October.  


Sr will open as soon as it can.  They don't have the elevation. Really only can do what the weather allows.  Others have more options, 

Only thing I am sure of is Sr will have one of, if not the longest season again this year.


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## Highway Star (Aug 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> does this mean you are staying at killington this season?


 
I always say I'm going to leave.  We'll be back this year though.


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I always say I'm going to leave.  We'll be back this year though.



Sounds kind of like Herpes   :lol:


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## SpinmasterK (Aug 27, 2010)

We have secured the permits for the Peak walkway. More info on this and a few other projects in an upcoming Killington Insider Post next week.
http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog

Food for thought!  Walking from the Bay 5 parking lot to the K-1 Lodge is the equivalent of walking from the top of the North Ridge Triple back to the top of the K-1 Gondola.


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## Highway Star (Aug 27, 2010)

Seems like much more info (with maps) is going to be on the ACT250 website soon, hopefully?

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/site/cfm/act250/detail.cfm?ID=25448

Links don't work right now.


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## ozzy (Aug 27, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> We have secured the permits for the Peak walkway. More info on this and a few other projects in an upcoming Killington Insider Post next week.
> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog
> 
> Food for thought!  Walking from the Bay 5 parking lot to the K-1 Lodge is the equivalent of walking from the top of the North Ridge Triple back to the top of the K-1 Gondola.



There's a Bay 5?


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## Highway Star (Aug 27, 2010)

So, can you ski on the new walkway once it is covered in snow??

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/Planning/1R0542-10/exhibit%20%234%20-%20Location%20Map%204%20-%20Peak%20Walkway%20&%20Huts%20Relocate.pdf


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

This is going to be in the way of both headwalls.  This is really starting to sound like a stupid idea.


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## Highway Star (Aug 27, 2010)

Puck it said:


> This is going to be in the way of both headwalls. This is really starting to sound like a stupid idea.


 
http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/...tion Costs - Peak Walkway & Hut Relocates.pdf





> *Description​*
> 
> [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]This project consists of constructing a raised 4' wide 750' railed walkway from the top of the North Ridge Triple lift to the K1 Gondola terminal. The pressure treated matted walkway with long flat sections and sporadic sections of stairs *will provide early season access to upper level skiing and riding.* The walk will take approximately 5 to 8 minutes and can be utilized for hikers and K1 Gondola guests in the summer. The route of this walkway follows an existing trail and will require no cutting of trees along it's route. [/FONT][/FONT]​


 
I'm a bit curious how far this will be above the ground and if it will use concrete footings. I would have to assume that the sections that cross the headwalls and catwalk would either be covered in snow or removed during the winter.


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> http://www.anr.state.vt.us/Imaging/...tion Costs - Peak Walkway & Hut Relocates.pdf


 

This just proves it is a stupid idea.  What abot the handrails.  How are you suppose to get over those to get to the headwalls?


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## Highway Star (Aug 27, 2010)

Puck it said:


> This just proves it is a stupid idea. What abot the handrails. How are you suppose to get over those to get to the headwalls?


 
Removeable?  Or if it's less than a foot off the ground they don't need them at all right there?


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## drjeff (Aug 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Removeable?  Or if it's less than a foot off the ground they don't need them at all right there?



Is this litengous era, especially with something like this where it's not unreasonable to expect that someone using that walkway in the summer will be somewhat elderly and of questionable stability on dry, flat ground, let alone on the side of a mountain that could be wet from rain/morning dew/etc,  I'd imagine that atleast on the downhill side of the walkway there would be a railing.

Removeable wise, it could possibly be like some alpine slide track that crosses a ski trail, where each segment can be pre-assembled and removed/inserted into place when needed in its entirety


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Is this litengous era, especially with something like this where it's not unreasonable to expect that someone using that walkway in the summer will be somewhat elderly and of questionable stability on dry, flat ground, let alone on the side of a mountain that could be wet from rain/morning dew/etc, I'd imagine that atleast on the downhill side of the walkway there would be a railing.
> 
> Removeable wise, it could possibly be like some alpine slide track that crosses a ski trail, where each segment can be pre-assembled and removed/inserted into place when needed in its entirety


 

The rocks in that area all ready make it difficult to keep snow in that area. Now add a walkway. They will have to blow a ton of extra snow to keep it covered. It all ready takes lots of snow to open up the traverse.

It sounds like it is going to be a pain in the arse!


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## mondeo (Aug 27, 2010)

Unless it's _really _elevated.


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## Highway Star (Aug 27, 2010)

Puck it said:


> The rocks in that area all ready make it difficult to keep snow in that area. Now add a walkway. They will have to blow a ton of extra snow to keep it covered. It all ready takes lots of snow to open up the traverse.
> 
> It sounds like it is going to be a pain in the arse!


 
I wouldn't worry too much about it, I'm sure they have a way planned to maintain the use of Cascade, Downdraft and Catwalk. 

However, it doesn't look like Heavenly Traverse will continue to exist as a legal ski trail?


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about it, I'm sure they have a way planned to maintain the use of Cascade, Downdraft and Catwalk.
> 
> However, it doesn't look like Heavenly Traverse will continue to exist as a legal ski trail?


 
So in order to ski the lower part of Catwalk, one is going to walk to it?

This thing makes sense for the early season but is spelling all kinds of problems for the normal season.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 27, 2010)

Puck it said:


> The rocks in that area all ready make it difficult to keep snow in that area. Now add a walkway. They will have to blow a ton of extra snow to keep it covered. It all ready takes lots of snow to open up the traverse.
> 
> It sounds like it is going to be a pain in the arse!



i would think heavenly traverse will be closed unless it gets burried with enough snow.  if there is a removable section for catwalk then i dont think that trail will be an issue.  there really isnt much distance from the heavenly traverse/upper downdraft intersection to the top near the peak lodge.  upper downdraft headwall shouldnt be affected at all.  not sure why u care so much about these 2 worthless ski trails in mid winter when the rest of the mountain is open for business.


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## mondeo (Aug 27, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> not sure why u care so much about these 2 worthless ski trails in mid winter when the rest of the mountain is open for business.


Only two issues I see is that Downdraft and Cascade headwalls are the first two interesting trail sections that they open, and Catwalk has some snow quality benefit from altitude and seclusion. But yeah, overall, once the Canyon quad opens, who cares?


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Only two issues I see is that Downdraft and Cascade headwalls are the first two interesting trail sections that they open, and Catwalk has some snow quality benefit from altitude and seclusion. But yeah, overall, once the Canyon quad opens, who cares?


 

True.  But it is a better way to get there without using GN.  I just like taking these and avoiding GN to get to the Canyon Area to lap my favorite stash.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Only two issues I see is that Downdraft and Cascade headwalls are the first two interesting trail sections that they open, and Catwalk has some snow quality benefit from altitude and seclusion. But yeah, overall, once the Canyon quad opens, who cares?



im sure the entrance to downdraft headwall will be a little skinnier.  i would think the stairs will end where that snowmaking pipe cuts across heavenly traverse.

cascade headwall??  are u talking about that section under the gondi? (which i think is permanetly closed)

i think i skied catwalk twice last year....hardly ever worth it IMO.


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## sLoPeS (Aug 27, 2010)

Puck it said:


> True.  But it is a better way to get there without using GN.  I just like taking these and avoiding GN to get to the Canyon Area to lap my favorite stash.



ur favorite stash is already tracked out at that point brah...


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> ur favorite stash is already tracked out at that point brah...


 
I don't about first tracks.  I prefer the woods to trails anyways.  Trails are there to connect the dots of stashes.


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> im sure the entrance to downdraft headwall will be a little skinnier. i would think the stairs will end where that snowmaking pipe cuts across heavenly traverse.
> 
> cascade headwall?? are u talking about that section under the gondi? (which i think is permanetly closed)
> 
> i think i skied catwalk twice last year....hardly ever worth it IMO.


 

Catwalk is good trail with snow and it gets bumped up and no traffic. I always go under the rope at the Cascade Headwall.

GN can be a cluster F@#$ even on slow days off of K1


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## mondeo (Aug 27, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> im sure the entrance to downdraft headwall will be a little skinnier. i would think the stairs will end where that snowmaking pipe cuts across heavenly traverse.
> 
> cascade headwall?? are u talking about that section under the gondi? (which i think is permanetly closed)
> 
> i think i skied catwalk twice last year....hardly ever worth it IMO.


The map shows it going all the way to the peak lodge. Which if it's close to the ground and not removable won't be a problem mid-season, they can just bury it with a little extra snowmaking. But as long as they need to use it, those trails would be unskiable as you need to keep it a pedestrian walkway the entire way across. Which means they can't blow Downdraft until Bunny Buster's ready, and I'd expect they might want to keep skiing upper mountain only for another week or so after they would blow BB in the past so as to minimize the snowmaking waste, which means intermediate terrain only for a longer period of time. Yeah the headwall isn't much, but it's something. After three weeks of Rime and Reason it might be worth hiking for.


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## Puck it (Aug 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> The map shows it going all the way to the peak lodge. Which if it's close to the ground and not removable won't be a problem mid-season, they can just bury it with a little extra snowmaking. But as long as they need to use it, those trails would be unskiable as you need to keep it a pedestrian walkway the entire way across. Which means they can't blow Downdraft until Bunny Buster's ready, and I'd expect they might want to keep skiing upper mountain only for another week or so after they would blow BB in the past so as to minimize the snowmaking waste, which means intermediate terrain only for a longer period of time. Yeah the headwall isn't much, but it's something. After three weeks of Rime and Reason it might be worth hiking for.


 
Or have a section of rail to remove or hop it.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 28, 2010)

Come on guys, do you obviously think this is going to permanently obstruct both Cascade and Downdraft headwalls for the whole season? It will either:

a) be removable
b) have a small enough foot print so snow can be made easily over it

BTW Slopes, Cascade headwall is not permanently closed, they often make snow on it and it is open fairly early.


----------



## sLoPeS (Aug 28, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> BTW Slopes, Cascade headwall is not permanently closed, they often make snow on it and it is open fairly early.



the top half of that trail gets roped off because of the gondi's getting low to the ground, so what is "open" is about 4 turns worth.

personally, I like to use the word "reserved" rather than "closed"...:grin:


----------



## JPTracker (Aug 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Removeable?  Or if it's less than a foot off the ground they don't need them at all right there?



From the ACT 250 permit application:



> Walkway will a “raised” design and *sit on existing stabilized ground*.



and also:



> Although these projects have the potential for being later in the construction season, there will be minimal to no excavation. *Excavation is limited to the footings for the two hut relocations*.



and also:



> This project consists of constructing a raised 4' wide 750' railed walkway from the top of the North Ridge Triple lift to the K1 Gondola terminal. The *pressure treated matted walkway* with long flat sections and sporadic sections of stairs will provide early season access to upper level skiing and riding. The walk will take approximately 5 to 8 minutes and can be utilized for hikers and K1 Gondola guests in the summer. The route of this walkway follows an existing trail and will require no cutting of trees along it's route.



From this I think the walkway will be no more than pressure treated mats laying directly on the ground, easily covered by snow making. If the walkway was off the ground then some kind of footing would have been involved. Not sure how they can build stairs without footings and keep them stable.


----------



## Highway Star (Aug 28, 2010)

JPTracker said:


> From this I think the walkway will be no more than pressure treated mats laying directly on the ground, easily covered by snow making. If the walkway was off the ground then some kind of footing would have been involved. Not sure how they can build stairs without footings and keep them stable.


 
After thinking about it futher, I'm not at all worried about heavenly traverse being skiable.  It's already a very rugged trail with ledges, deadfall and stumps all over the place, and is very off camber.  The reason you don't see that is because it typically gets a 5 to 10 ft base of natural snow.  I've hiked it in the summer and seen the trees directly above double dipper - they are 12-15 feet tall but are only knee-waist high during the ski season...buried.  If anything, a leveled off walkway will make the trail skiable with less snow.  A set of 4 stairs is nothing when covered in snow.--------------

As far as not needing footings - it is very rocky up there, they can probably have the posts sit on the rock or anchor to the rock.  The trail is very off camber and the walkway will certainly need posts on the downhill side to build it level

I think the railings would need to be removable.  When it gets buried with 5-10 ft of packed snow/ice and that starts to shift down hill, they would be torn off quite easily.  The walkway itself could probably take it, but will probably end up needing yearly work after ski season to move it back into place and straighten it out.


----------



## Rogman (Aug 29, 2010)

My guess is that their description of a raised walkway is substantially different than what most people are assuming. I suspect "raised" means nothing more than a 4' wide walkway fasted to 2x4 planks lying flat on the ground, which would be leveled and/or filled to accommodate the construction.

The budget indicates it will cost about 80K for 700 feet, i.e. 110$/foot. A walkway actually resting on posts would require pairs of posts every 8 feet; that's nearly to 200 holes that have to be dug at least 2' deep, in some pretty rocky terrain. The budget for something like that would have to be substantially larger. 

A walkway, raised up on 2x4's on the flat, is far simpler, far cheaper, and won't interfere with midwinter skiing, since even a few inches of snow will bury it. The railing is probably posts with rope stretched between them; easily removed for midwinter skiing.

Great business decision. The payback is immediate; it will more than pay for itself in a single season, and guarantee Killington can be open for the Thanksgiving weekend. They may well go for first in the East. POWDR owned Las Vegas resort, missed being first in the west by only a few hours to Loveland. Cumming has tweeted that he wants to be first this year. No reason he can't be first in the East, too.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 29, 2010)

I would think it would have to be more than just 2 X 4's on the ground.  Maybe if they had some decent grip tape.  Walking on decking in Ski Boots can be quite deadly with a bit of water/snow/ice on it.  From a liability standpoint, you'd think they'd want to put a railing in.


----------



## Rogman (Aug 29, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I would think it would have to be more than just 2 X 4's on the ground.  Maybe if they had some decent grip tape.  Walking on decking in Ski Boots can be quite deadly with a bit of water/snow/ice on it.  From a liability standpoint, you'd think they'd want to put a railing in.


I'm guessing 1x6 bull nosed pressure treated decking fastened to 2x4 stringers laid on the ground. The railing is probably pipe, driven into the ground, with a rope strung between them. Anything fancier makes no sense. I agree, ice will be a problem, but I see this as a short term solution until they redo the entire upper mountain area. I fully expect to see another lift to the peak eventually. Something parallel to the K1 down Cascade probably makes the most sense, but there are a lot of options, that have all been beaten to death.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 29, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> the top half of that trail gets roped off because of the gondi's getting low to the ground, so what is "open" is about 4 turns worth.
> 
> personally, I like to use the word "reserved" rather than "closed"...:grin:



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2282/2502833597_f2bcf16fd3.jpg?v=0

I only remember the area directly below the gondola here being roped off, but you could ski to either side...


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 31, 2010)

JPTracker said:


> From this I think the walkway will be no more than pressure treated mats laying directly on the ground, easily covered by snow making. If the walkway was off the ground then some kind of footing would have been involved. Not sure how they can build stairs without footings and keep them stable.



How can it simply be mats laying on the ground if it's being described as a "raised walkway"?    Those two descriptions are incompatible with one another.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 31, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> How can it simply be mats laying on the ground if it's being described as a "raised walkway"?    Those two descriptions are incompatible with one another.



"raised" might end up being a relative term


----------



## Highway Star (Aug 31, 2010)

Again, let me state this again.  No part of Heavenly Traverse is anywhere near flat/level.  It is very rugged and off camber.  Any walkway will need to be supported by posts on the downhill side.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 31, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Again, let me state this again.  No part of Heavenly Traverse is anywhere near flat/level.  It is very rugged and off camber.  Any walkway will need to be supported by posts on the downhill side.



The more and more I think about this, the more and more I get the idea that this walkway could very well end up being like an alpine slide track in its assembly, where there are some small, permanent footings installed into the ground, and then individual, completely assembled segements that can be installed/removed onto those footings in a relatively quick and easy fashion


----------



## skiadikt (Aug 31, 2010)

was up this weekend. nothing started yet. having gone up the catwalk stairway, i'm thinking it has to be similar to that.


----------



## RENO (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm guessing they'll start building after this weekend since they'll be going to weekend only operation after Monday until Oct 2nd...


----------



## skiadikt (Aug 31, 2010)

RENO said:


> I'm guessing they'll start building after this weekend since they'll be going to weekend only operation after Monday until Oct 2nd...



maybe ... but they've been doing a lot of work on great eastern with tons of blasting (and still a long way to go) so whether the mtn is open or not shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## RENO (Aug 31, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> maybe ... but they've been doing a lot of work on great eastern with tons of blasting (and still a long way to go) so whether the mtn is open or not shouldn't be an issue.



Only difference is that now they'll be doing a lot of work around the gondola and the peak lodge so I would imagine they would want to keep people away from there and most likely close the lodge. I would also guess that they might have to reconfigure the deck at the entrance to the lodge too. Possibly rip it out and put in a whole new configuration. I guess we'll find out soon...


----------



## SpinmasterK (Sep 2, 2010)

New Blog posted: Early Season Insurance

http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/early-season-insurance


----------



## Greg (Sep 2, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> New Blog posted: Early Season Insurance
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/early-season-insurance



Fingers crossed for early cold.


----------



## WJenness (Sep 2, 2010)

From the link:


> Our goal for kicking off the season remains the same: We are committed to open as early as possible for our guests with a sustainable quality product. “It is important for us to be open as early as reasonably possible, as it is a critical element in our overall operating plan,” Temple says. A quality product is defined as one that allows for snowmaking mounds to “dry and cure” for a period of time before grooming and opening. This process greatly improves the durability and quality of the snow surface.



Funny how things change<cough>remain the same</cough>... 

-w


----------



## gmcunni (Sep 2, 2010)

Greg said:


> Fingers crossed for early cold.



i'd take a repeat of this day, but earlier if possible :-D


----------



## powhunter (Sep 2, 2010)

That was a fine day at the institution


----------



## bvibert (Sep 2, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> i'd take a repeat of this day, but earlier if possible :-D



That was a great day, wasn't it?  My legs are tired just from watching/remembering it though!


----------



## Greg (Sep 2, 2010)

downhill04. Where's he been? Hope he's healthy this season....


----------



## bvibert (Sep 2, 2010)

Greg said:


> downhill04. Where's he been? Hope he's healthy this season....



Was thinking the same thing...


----------



## gmcunni (Sep 2, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Was thinking the same thing...



+2

i love watching that guy ski..


----------



## speden (Sep 2, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> New Blog posted: Early Season Insurance
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/early-season-insurance



When I read this part:

"Remember last season when we saw significantly colder temperatures in mid-October, fired up the snowmaking system and buried the upper slopes with deep snow? Then the temperatures moderated into November and we struggled to cover Lower Bunny Buster to get skiers/riders back to the base of the K-1 Gondola."

It reminded me of the old saying about how generals always prepare to fight the previous war, rather than the next one.  So in this season once the walkway is in place, we'll probably go straight from moderate temperatures into top to bottom skiing with a buried walkway.    Perhaps the new battlefront is in huge gladed areas.


----------



## RENO (Sep 2, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> New Blog posted: Early Season Insurance
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/early-season-insurance



Me likey T! :grin:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 2, 2010)

There will be removable section for the headwalls and Catwalk.  Heavenly Traverse will not be skiable.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2010)

Puck it said:


> There will be removable section for the headwalls and Catwalk.  Heavenly Traverse will not be skiable.



There we go. Now people can stop speculating and coming up with ridiculous ideas that those 3 trails won't be skiable...


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 7, 2010)

Puck it said:


> There will be removable section for the headwalls and Catwalk. Heavenly Traverse will not be skiable.


 
What is the official source on this?

Heavenly traverse gets so much snow it should be skiable no problem.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 7, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> What is the official source on this?
> 
> Heavenly traverse gets so much snow it should be skiable no problem.


 

A little birdy told me and he is very reliable.


----------



## bvibert (Sep 8, 2010)

They posted one picture of the walkway construction on Facebook today.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 8, 2010)

bvibert said:


> They posted one picture of the walkway construction on Facebook today.



We will be skiing in mid October then.


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## Highway Star (Sep 16, 2010)

Bump, looks like progress.....






....or a sweet jump.


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## Greg (Sep 16, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> ....or a sweet jump.



That's what I was thinking. Would be rad on that POS bike of yours... :lol:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 16, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump, looks like progress.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Chipboard for decking?  or is that just dirt.


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## Greg (Sep 16, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Chipboard for decking?  or is that just dirt.



Actually, it's cardboard.


Duh.... :roll:


----------



## Geoff (Sep 16, 2010)

The bummer about this is that they're going to rope off access to the Catwalk ladies tee.   I probably skied 20 of those for every time I walked up the steel stairs to do the rock garden at the top.


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## drjeff (Sep 16, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The bummer about this is that they're going to rope off access to the Catwalk ladies tee.   I probably skied 20 of those for every time I walked up the steel stairs to do the rock garden at the top.



Just think of it this way now with respect to Catwalk and the lack of a ladies tee entrance.  With the extra calories you'll burn climbing those metal stairs, thats the perfect excuse for an extra beer or two during happy hour!    :beer:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 16, 2010)

Greg said:


> Actually, it's cardboard.
> 
> 
> Duh.... :roll:


 

Chipboard does not hold up to water very well.  :-o


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## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2010)

Wonder why they're not going with some sort of composite decking


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## Puck it (Sep 16, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder why they're not going with some sort of composite decking


 
Does it look like chipboard or is it just me?


----------



## Greg (Sep 16, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Does it look like chipboard or is it just me?



The latter.


----------



## bvibert (Sep 16, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Does it look like chipboard or is it just me?



Looks like dirt on pine to me...


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## Puck it (Sep 16, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Looks like dirt on pine to me...


 

CDX plywood with dirt on it may be?  It looked like chipboard when I first saw and said they could not be that lame.


----------



## Geoff (Sep 16, 2010)

Puck it said:


> CDX plywood with dirt on it may be?  It looked like chipboard when I first saw and said they could not be that lame.



Draw your own conclusions from these photos:


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## WJenness (Sep 16, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Draw your own conclusions from these photos:



So, what you're telling us...

Is that Killington's got wood for this upcoming early season?

:rimshot:

-w


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## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2010)

ohhhh

pressure treated chipboard :lol:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 16, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> ohhhh
> 
> pressure treated chipboard :lol:


 
:uzi:  I was asking a simple question.  Wise ass.


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## RENO (Sep 17, 2010)

It's actually paper mache...


----------



## threecy (Sep 17, 2010)

Weird, I thought the boards were made out of compacted wood pellets from Les Otten's new business.


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## bigbob (Sep 17, 2010)

No, PT lumber in the North east is usually SYP, NDAT.


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## bigbob (Sep 17, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder why they're not going with some sort of composite decking



 Short term solution.


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## Highway Star (Sep 18, 2010)

bigbob said:


> Short term solution.


 
It should last at least 10 years...but I would think they would build some sort of upper mountain lift before that.


----------



## millerm277 (Sep 18, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder why they're not going with some sort of composite decking



The composite stuff might not hold up so well to ski boots and shovels.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2010)

I thought the benefit of composites these days is durability.  Some that I've walked on are a bit more 'grippy' as well.  Wet lumber can be a bit sketchy to walk on in ski boots.


----------



## bigbob (Sep 19, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> It should last at least 10 years...but I would think they would build some sort of upper mountain lift before that.



 I was referring to a future lift solution, rather than the life of the material used to construct the walkway.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 19, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> The composite stuff might not hold up so well to ski boots and shovels.



That composite stuff will take a beating from boots and shovels way better than any wood, that's the point - and grip as well.


----------



## powderskier2 (Sep 19, 2010)

*First ski turns at ski resort for 2010/11 season at Fernie Alpine Resort*

breaking news! First ski turns at ski resort for the 2010/11 season happened today at Fernie Alpine Resort, Fernie, British Columbia.. The skier, Powder Matt Mosteller, dropped in the Currie Bowl, one of the 5 Alpine Bowls at Fernie Alpine Resort. Fernie Alpine Resort, averages over 30 feet of snow a winter! Located in the Powder Triangle, along the Powder Highway in Southeastern, British Columbia. With a La Nina season it is time to make the break to Fernie so you can rip the pow this winter!

check out more info at www.skircr.com/matts-blog


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 19, 2010)

powderskier2 said:


> breaking news! First ski turns at ski resort for the 2010/11 season happened today at Fernie Alpine Resort, Fernie, British Columbia.. The skier, Powder Matt Mosteller, dropped in the Currie Bowl, one of the 5 Alpine Bowls at Fernie Alpine Resort. Fernie Alpine Resort, averages over 30 feet of snow a winter! Located in the Powder Triangle, along the Powder Highway in Southeastern, British Columbia. With a La Nina season it is time to make the break to Fernie so you can rip the pow this winter!
> 
> check out more info at www.skircr.com/matts-blog



Is this your picture?


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 19, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> It should last at least 10 years...but I would think they would build some sort of upper mountain lift before that.



Don't hold your breath.


----------



## Edd (Sep 20, 2010)

powderskier2 said:


> breaking news! First ski turns at ski resort for the 2010/11 season happened today at Fernie Alpine Resort, Fernie, British Columbia.. The skier, Powder Matt Mosteller, dropped in the Currie Bowl, one of the 5 Alpine Bowls at Fernie Alpine Resort. Fernie Alpine Resort, averages over 30 feet of snow a winter! Located in the Powder Triangle, along the Powder Highway in Southeastern, British Columbia. With a La Nina season it is time to make the break to Fernie so you can rip the pow this winter!
> 
> check out more info at www.skircr.com/matts-blog



Jackson Hole might have you beat...

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/95959/powder-turns-in-september-jackson-hole-9-11-2010


----------



## mondeo (Sep 20, 2010)




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## Highway Star (Sep 20, 2010)

How's the Killington weather forecast looking?


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 22, 2010)

Weather update from NOAA:



> *Today: *A chance of showers and thunderstorms after 2pm. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 61. South wind 10 to 13 mph becoming west. Chance of precipitation is 40%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch, except higher amounts possible in thunderstorms.
> 
> *Tonight: *A chance of showers before 8pm. Mostly cloudy, then gradually becoming mostly clear, with a low around 43. Southwest wind 7 to 10 mph becoming east. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.
> 
> ...


 
Temps aren't quite there there yet.  Back in the day they were able to make snow in late September some years.....


----------



## jerryg (Sep 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Weather update from NOAA:
> 
> 
> 
> Temps aren't quite there there yet.  Back in the day they were able to make snow in late September some years.....



Remember that this isn't back in the day and Powdr is not P. Smith. Just because it gets cold enough doesn't mean they're gonna flick the switch. I mean nothing says competition like a teal-colored Beast. Really.  ????


----------



## WWF-VT (Sep 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Weather update from NOAA:
> 
> Temps aren't quite there there yet.  Back in the day they were able to make snow in late September some years.....



Hey Brick - thanks for the weather update !


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 22, 2010)

18 years ago this Friday.......


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 22, 2010)

Snowmaking could start in 3 weeks or less....!  (or more, lol)

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27711&hilit=sign+snowmaking&start=15


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## gpetrics (Sep 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> 18 years ago this Friday.......



righteous! i could go for some schuss right about now!


----------



## frankm938 (Sep 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Snowmaking could start in 3 weeks or less....!  (or more, lol)
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27711&hilit=sign+snowmaking&start=15



i didnt realize until i got to the bottom of that thread you linked to that it was from last year.
thats a kick in the nuts


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

Sorry Frank, not my intention.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

New post from the killington blog about finishing the walkway and snowmaking to start ASAP (weather and temperatures permitting):

http://www.killington.com/winter/bea...owmaking-asap


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## Puck it (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> New post from the killington blog about finishing the walkway and snowmaking to start ASAP (weather and temperatures permitting):
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/bea...owmaking-asap


 

That so old news!!!!!!


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

Puck it said:


> That so old news!!!!!!


 
New news!!!


----------



## Greg (Sep 23, 2010)

Joking and lame rick-rolling aside (what is this - 2007? :???, had this walkway been in place last year, October lift-serviced at Killington would have been a reality. The only thing we need now is cold temps, and my feeling is this warm pattern we've had all summer has to shift at some point, hopefully in time to kick off a great season a bit early.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> Joking and lame rick-rolling aside (what is this - 2007? :???, had this walkway been in place last year, October lift-serviced at Killington would have been a reality. The only thing we need now is cold temps, and my feeling is this warm pattern we've had all summer has to shift at some point, hopefully in time to kick off a great season a bit early.


 
Whatever....there's nothing better than an out of date internet meme.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

Re: Sugarloaf thread.  This thread has more views.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

Update on the walkway, looks like they might need some railings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0









Link to a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0


----------



## wa-loaf (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Re: Sugarloaf thread.  This thread has more views.



lol, you post outside of Killington threads?



Highway Star said:


> Update on the walkway, looks like they might need some railings.



Nah, they should keep difficulty level up. You could do one of those old school Warren Miller people falling of lift (walkway) videos here.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> lol, you post outside of Killington threads?
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, they should keep difficulty level up. You could do one of those old school Warren Miller people falling of lift (walkway) videos here.


 
I'll be interested to see what it looks like mid winter.  Without railings it would probably be very skiable.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Update on the walkway, looks like they might need some railings.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
> 
> ...



Some railings?  I'm guessing their attorneys would likely prefer something like A-Main fencing used for a world cup downhill!    :lol:


----------



## Greg (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> looks like they might need some railings.



I'm wondering if this solution is really that much less of a liability than the trucks....


----------



## drjeff (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> I'm wondering if this solution is really that much less of a liability than the trucks....



Exactly!  I mean how many times have we all seen folks walking in the lodge in ski boots wipe out?? Let alone up on the side of a mountain with atleast for a section of that walkway some blow-over manmade.  I'm guessing minimum when the walkway is done, they'll be a nice surface layer of some abrassive/tacky covering


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> I'm wondering if this solution is really that much less of a liability than the trucks....



the metal cheese grater stairway that leads to catwalk would have been a lot more expensive but would have been "safer."


----------



## Greg (Sep 23, 2010)

It's probably been discussed, but can you reasonably download on the Canyon Quad? Running trucks to the canyon to upload/download seems no more "risky".

Not that I give a crap. I'm totally looking forward to using the walkway, but it's definitely going to be interestiong to see how people handle it. Is the plan to ski off the summit, or will there be back and forth traffic on the walkway? The former, I'd imagine.


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> It's probably been discussed, but can you reasonably download on the Canyon Quad? Running trucks to the canyon to upload/download seems no more "risky".
> 
> Not that I give a crap. I'm totally looking forward to using the walkway, but it's definitely going to be interestiong to see how people handle it. Is the plan to ski off the summit, or will there be back and forth traffic on the walkway? The former, I'd imagine.



actually they did download on the canyon quad during one of those "trucking" early seasons. might have been the last season.

haven't heard anything yet about a plan, but i'd assume they'd blow & open great northern into the north ridge area as usual but obviously with the stairway they don't necessarily have to do it.

and for those who don't remember the truckin days:


----------



## bvibert (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> It's probably been discussed, but can you reasonably download on the Canyon Quad? Running trucks to the canyon to upload/download seems no more "risky".
> 
> Not that I give a crap. I'm totally looking forward to using the walkway, but it's definitely going to be interestiong to see how people handle it. Is the plan to ski off the summit, or will there be back and forth traffic on the walkway? The former, I'd imagine.



I was assuming they'd plan to ski off the summit and only use the walkway to get back up.  It doesn't look wide enough to support much two way traffic...


----------



## vonski (Sep 23, 2010)

If i am able to make it.  I will bring a back pack with lunch and goodies and my hiking boots or sneakers in it.  Stash the pack in the woods while skiing and change out of my ski boots to walk the walk back to gondola!  Bring the harness for the skis to carry them on my back as well.


----------



## powhunter (Sep 23, 2010)

Its just gonna blow after early season when ya need to get to coops quick..unless ya can ski it

steveo


----------



## Greg (Sep 23, 2010)

skiadikt said:


>



I wonder if that's still considered a "sustainable quality product"? I'd be all over that FWIW...


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Update on the walkway, looks like they might need some railings.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
> 
> ...



I love how some people thought it was just going to be resting on the ground.

Highway Star - are you the new Skiing Snow?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 23, 2010)

Walkway is only for return trip to K1.  A little birdy thold me.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't even know how it would be questionable. Of course it's going to be ski down to the Glades, only walk up.


----------



## Greg (Sep 23, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Walkway is only for return trip to K1.  A little birdy thold me.



Did the birdy confirm it's not partical board?


----------



## millerm277 (Sep 23, 2010)

Greg said:


> Did the birdy confirm it's not partical board?



Someone on KZone had pictures of the supplies they had piled up, it's normal wood.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> I don't even know how it would be questionable. Of course it's going to be ski down to the Glades, only walk up.



Scenario:

Snowmaking window pops up.  Guns are blasting on Rime and Great Northern.   Great Northern isn't quite ready, but Rime is. 

Sunday River is looking to open T2 for the afternoon to kick start the season.  K wants the early season title.  Why wouldn't you open the walkway from the Peak down to Rime to get going?????

In a perfect world the Great Northern connect over will be ready to go, but if it's not, Rime is, and K wants to offer skiing, why wouldn't they let people walk down the 'Stairway to Heaven'??


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> In a perfect world the Great Northern connect over will be ready to go, but if it's not, Rime is, and K wants to offer skiing, why wouldn't they let people walk down the 'Stairway to Heaven'??


 
Those are some pretty serious stairs. I wouldn't want to walk down them carrying ski gear. Really. I'm actually suprised they didn't use less steep stairs. We'll see.

The loop around up top isn't that far for them to make snow. Compared to the amount to get Rime open with a base they would consider acceptable these days, the link is a small fraction of that. 

Plus, there's ways to shorten that route somewhat if they really wanted to - go from the side of the summit lodge down that trail fragment below the lodge stairs, to GN briefly, then have people walk up high traverse to Rime.  Just a thought.

Not to mention, I doubt they would open with Rime only anyway, it would probably be at least Rime, Reason and Upper East Fall....and possibly Upper Dipper, Powerline, "middle" GN, lower ridge run, and maybe even Upper Downdraft to hike to. Also, I think you would see most of those trails pretty well buried before they would expand down to the bottom...IMHO.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Those are some pretty serious stairs.  I wouldn't want to walk down them carrying ski gear.  Really.  I'm actually suprised they didn't use less steep stairs.  We'll see.
> 
> The loop around up top isn't that far for them to make snow.  Compared to the amount to get Rime open with a base they would consider acceptable these days, the link is a small fraction of that.
> 
> Not to mention, I doubt they would open with Rime only anyway, it would probably be at least Rime, Reason and Upper East Fall....and possibly Upper Dipper, Powerline, "middle" GN, lower ridge run, and maybe even Upper Downdraft to hike to.  Also, I think you would see most of those trails pretty well buried before they would expand down to the bottom...IMHO.



I'll take your word for it.  You're the early season K Strategy pro 


I've got no skin in the game.  I'll be over at SR skiing the same early season quality WROD product for half the cost.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> actually they did download on the canyon quad during one of those "trucking" early seasons. might have been the last season.
> 
> haven't heard anything yet about a plan, but i'd assume they'd blow & open great northern into the north ridge area as usual but obviously with the stairway they don't necessarily have to do it.
> 
> and for those who don't remember the truckin days:


 
I rode the canyon quad for truckfest '99, IIRC. 

I'd be curious what day that was in the video. They opened Oct 22nd in 1998. I'm wondering if that was after a bit of a melt out or if they just didn't blow that much snow for the opening. 

Last few years they made like....20x more snow than that to open top to bottom....effectively 2 weeks later.  But even in late October they had much more snow than that on Rime. I would hope they could find a good balance between opening early with dirt skiing vs. quality product.


----------



## millerm277 (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Last few years they made like....20x more snow than that to open top to bottom....effectively 2 weeks later.  But even in late October they had much more snow than that on Rime. I would hope they could find a good balance between opening early with dirt skiing vs. quality product.



Personally, I'm fine with dirt skiing. Tell us accordingly, and price it accordingly, and as long as the surface bears some resemblance to something frozen, we're good. 

I don't see the "requirement" for it to be a high-quality product before opening, as long as we're informed of exactly what it is and you're not charging $50 for brown snow.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> Personally, I'm fine with dirt skiing. Tell us accordingly, and price it accordingly, and as long as the surface bears some resemblance to something frozen, we're good.
> 
> I don't see the "requirement" for it to be a high-quality product before opening, as long as we're informed of exactly what it is and you're not charging $50 for brown snow.



correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been $60-$65 for WROD skiing the past couple of seasons?


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been $60-$65 for WROD skiing the past couple of seasons?


 
Top to bottom off the K-1, plus extra trail sections, with good snow cover and quality. I've been very impressed with Killington's openings...............just not the date. 

I think they can find a good balance between opening a couple (or more) weeks earlier, while not skiing on crap.  

...........and staying open throughout November, it always seems like we would always lose 2 weekends in Nov.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Top to bottom off the K-1, plus extra trail sections, with good snow cover and quality. I've been very impressed with Killington's openings...............just not the date.
> 
> I think they can find a good balance between opening a couple (or more) weeks earlier, while not skiing on crap.



Fair enough

I just know it's always been about half the cost for a similar product at SR the past couple of seasons.  For a Boston Area skier like me, the choice is pretty simple where to go.  

That said, I have heard they've been packed on the weekends at K early season.  So maybe people other than myself don't mind paying $65 for 10-15 acres of terrain with marginal snow conditions.


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I rode the canyon quad for truckfest '99, IIRC.
> 
> I'd be curious what day that was in the video. They opened Oct 22nd in 1998. I'm wondering if that was after a bit of a melt out or if they just didn't blow that much snow for the opening.
> 
> Last few years they made like....20x more snow than that to open top to bottom....effectively 2 weeks later.  But even in late October they had much more snow than that on Rime. I would hope they could find a good balance between opening early with dirt skiing vs. quality product.



that was the saturday oct 24. i remember that day being very warm. by the end of the day there was more brown than white. they did not open for the sunday.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> that was the saturday oct 24. i remember that day being very warm. by the end of the day there was more brown than white. they did not open for the sunday.


 
Interesting.  I've seen more snow on Rime in late October, several years.


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 23, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Interesting.  I've seen more snow on Rime in late October, several years.



essentially they just painted the trail white to get it open.


----------



## millerm277 (Sep 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been $60-$65 for WROD skiing the past couple of seasons?



Not really sure, but I definitely heard at least $50. (Depending on the season I usually have either had a pass or some type of discount card/discounted tickets, so I don't pay a ton of attention.)

On the other hand, they've had plenty of people there early season with those prices, so I can't entirely blame them.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Fair enough
> 
> I just know it's always been about half the cost for a similar product at SR the past couple of seasons.  For a Boston Area skier like me, the choice is pretty simple where to go.
> 
> That said, I have heard they've been packed on the weekends at K early season.  So maybe people other than myself don't mind paying $65 for 10-15 acres of terrain with marginal snow conditions.


Not that I am big on defending Killington. Their recent early season prices are hardly worth the product offered. But the product Killington starts the season with blows away Sunday River's early season offering. Killington usually opens with two full trails off the Glades Triple (both longer than T2), a full mountain of vertical via a Gondi (instead of stop and go uploading on the Locke Triple), and significantly more acres. Even if you extend it out to when Sunday River can go top to bottom on Locke, Killington expands its terrain much faster. They have a substantial elevation advantage in opening new terrain. Its over priced, but Killington early season is superior to Sunday River early season in terms of terrain, acres, lifts, etc. Still is not worth $65 and I won't pay more than I normally pay in season for skiing for early season, so I think I'll be sticking with Sunday River regardless. But I am not sure how you can call Killington and Sunday River early season similar products.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 24, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> Not really sure, but I definitely heard at least $50. (Depending on the season I usually have either had a pass or some type of discount card/discounted tickets, so I don't pay a ton of attention.)
> 
> On the other hand, they've had plenty of people there early season with those prices, so I can't entirely blame them.


 
It was $49 last year for early season.  $39 with the express card.  The price did not jump up until Thanksgiving.


----------



## gmcunni (Sep 24, 2010)

killington is 3ish  hours from my home. If they are open, the $50 vs $65 won't be the issue that decides whether i go skiing in October.  if i had options perhaps the price would matter more but i don't anticipate having many options.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 24, 2010)

Greg said:


> Did the birdy confirm it's not partical board?


:flame:Wise ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2010)

True but that scenario hasn't happened since the Killington Double was still there. There were a couple seasons back then where they painted Upper Cascade white and you had to walk from the summit around to the snow, roughly under the old gondola. Currently though, there is no reason why they wouldn't put enough on GN to get down to the Glades. 




deadheadskier said:


> Scenario:
> 
> Snowmaking window pops up.  Guns are blasting on Rime and Great Northern.   Great Northern isn't quite ready, but Rime is.
> 
> ...


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 24, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> True but that scenario hasn't happened since the Killington Double was still there. There were a couple seasons back then where they painted Upper Cascade white and you had to walk from the summit around to the snow, roughly under the old gondola. Currently though, there is no reason why they wouldn't put enough on GN to get down to the Glades.



agree that'll probably be the plan but they do have the rime only option now if they need it.


----------



## 2knees (Sep 24, 2010)

Greg said:


> Did the birdy confirm it's not partical board?


----------



## 2knees (Sep 24, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Walkway is only for return trip to K1.  A little birdy thold me.





millerm277 said:


> Someone on KZone had pictures of the supplies they had piled up, it's normal wood.




there are some hard hittin in depth observations on this board!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 24, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Not that I am big on defending Killington. Their recent early season prices are hardly worth the product offered. But the product Killington starts the season with blows away Sunday River's early season offering. Killington usually opens with two full trails off the Glades Triple (both longer than T2), a full mountain of vertical via a Gondi (instead of stop and go uploading on the Locke Triple), and significantly more acres. Even if you extend it out to when Sunday River can go top to bottom on Locke, Killington expands its terrain much faster. They have a substantial elevation advantage in opening new terrain. Its over priced, but Killington early season is superior to Sunday River early season in terms of terrain, acres, lifts, etc. Still is not worth $65 and I won't pay more than I normally pay in season for skiing for early season, so I think I'll be sticking with Sunday River regardless. *But I am not sure how you can call Killington and Sunday River early season similar products.*



River-

It's real easy to do on the internet.  Excellent analysis of both areas BTW.

Cost = value. VT isn't ME.  You also don't see the overalls and Columbia crowd on their $25 day tickets at Killington. Something to be said for that. Geoff's beloved detox had some wonderful effects. 

If you are a 15 day a year skier looking for "value" in the early season, Killington is effectively saying you are not welcome.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> there are some hard hittin in depth observations on this board!



Hard hitting reporting at its best!


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> River-
> 
> It's real easy to do on the internet.  Excellent analysis of both areas BTW.
> 
> ...



I'll take the bait.  Please explain to me what 'Columbia Crowd' is.


----------



## Greg (Sep 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll take the bait.  Please explain to me what 'Columbia Crowd' is.



I suspect those that wear Columbia outerwear. Which is kinds dumb cuz for the average skier the Columbia stuff is not that bad and it's affordable.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2010)

Greg said:


> I suspect those that wear Columbia outerwear. Which is kinds dumb cuz for the average skier the Columbia stuff is not that bad and it's affordable.



yep, well aware.  Worn Columbia jackets and pants for the past decade.  No complaints

I'd rather take the $300 I save buying Columbia instead of Arcteryx and take my wife out to dinner at Number 9 Park.

Just like I'd rather spend $30 early season at SR on a lift ticket and then spend $30 at their bar than spend $60 on a lift tickete at Kton.  The mountain gets the same money from me either way.


but by all means Captain Stereotype, Black Phantom, please continue to drop your marketing knowledge on us all.


----------



## EPB (Sep 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> yep, well aware.  Worn Columbia jackets and pants for the past decade.  No complaints
> 
> I'd rather take the $300 I save buying Columbia instead of Arcteryx and take my wife out to dinner at Number 9 Park.
> 
> ...



All this money saving chatter is reminding me of Threecy.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2010)

Agreed. Arcteryx is overpriced yuppie wear. Better off spending your money on something like Mountain Hardware.



deadheadskier said:


> yep, well aware.  Worn Columbia jackets and pants for the past decade.  No complaints
> 
> I'd rather take the $300 I save buying Columbia instead of Arcteryx and take my wife out to dinner at Number 9 Park.
> 
> ...


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> yep, well aware.  Worn Columbia jackets and pants for the past decade.  No complaints
> 
> I'd rather take the $300 I save buying Columbia instead of Arcteryx and take my wife out to dinner at Number 9 Park.
> 
> ...



Haven't you already answered your own question? You do not see the value in the _"product" _at K, either real or perceived. There is nothing wrong with that.

If I was making a _day trip _from the "Boston area" (I live in the city proper), it would be a pretty easy choice for me as well.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 24, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Agreed. Arcteryx is overpriced yuppie wear. Better off spending your money on something like Mountain Hardware.


 
You're kidding, right?


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 24, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You're kidding, right?



Sadly, they are not.

You can rent this stuff at Banff.  Beats lugging gear, right?


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You're kidding, right?



Do I sound like I'm kidding? You should see the shmucks who walk around Boston in that stuff that have never seen a mountain in their life. It's the new North Face but more elite.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 24, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Do I sound like I'm kidding? You should see the shmucks who walk around Boston in that stuff that have never seen a mountain in their life. It's the new North Face but more elite.


 
Did you know you can actually ski in it?

I have a $900 arcteryx outfit I picked up for $450 from BC.com......I've got about 150 days on it and the jacket still looks like new, and is still in style for those who care.

It is certainly NOT elite among people who actually spend big bucks on ski clothes.....try shopping at Killington or Stratton some time and check out the $1000+ jackets.

Mountain Hardware............hummm....stop living in the 90's.


----------



## gmcunni (Sep 24, 2010)

i got my ski jacket at Costco


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Did you know you can actually ski in it?
> 
> I have a $900 arcteryx outfit I picked up for $450 from BC.com......I've got about 150 days on it and the jacket still looks like new, and is still in style for those who care.
> 
> ...




Dear Diary,

Someone on the Internet made funnnn of my overpriced ski clothing.


----------



## 2knees (Sep 24, 2010)

Doesn't hs ski in jeans?


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Sep 24, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> River-
> 
> It's real easy to do on the internet.  Excellent analysis of both areas BTW.
> 
> ...



Funny thing is I would rather hang out with the "Overall" and "Columbia" crowd then some superficial, wanna be environmentalist, liberal, "Free Tibet" bumpersticker asshole with NY plates who shows up at the mountain in their high end clothing, driving their "enviromentally sound" Tahoe. How's that for stereotype?  Dink.:wink:


----------



## jerryg (Sep 24, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Funny thing is I would rather hang out with the "Overall" and "Columbia" crowd then some superficial, wanna be environmentalist, liberal, "Free Tibet" bumpersticker asshole with NY plates who shows up at the mountain in their high end clothing, driving their "enviromentally sound" Tahoe. How's that for stereotype?  Dink.:wink:



No kidding. Kton definitely offers more terrain early on, but they HAVE to. The cast of Jersey Shore x 10,000 show up for wall-to-wall elbowing and rude lift line etiquette. I mean chains on a Camero or Tran Am, really? About as practical as the Dolphins Starter Jacket unzipped down to the waist....

Oh sorry, for a second I thought I was Black Phantom from the city proper. Ha. Tool! uke:

Settle down, I'm only kidding and I ski in jeans, tucked into my boots!


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 25, 2010)

jerryg said:


> No kidding. Kton definitely offers more terrain early on, but they HAVE to. The cast of Jersey Shore x 10,000 show up for wall-to-wall elbowing and rude lift line etiquette. I mean chains on a Camero or Tran Am, really? About as practical as the Dolphins Starter Jacket unzipped down to the waist....
> 
> Oh sorry, for a second I thought I was Black Phantom from the city proper. Ha. Tool! uke:
> 
> Settle down, I'm only kidding and I ski in jeans, tucked into my boots!



I guess you live in the "Boston Area" as well!


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 25, 2010)

the latest k insider answers some questions about the stairway. in addition work has begun on the removing the double fall line on lower wildfire and moving the superpipe for the dew tour this season:

Construction continues on the Peak Walkway with the vast majority of the decking now complete. Hand railings and bar grating stairs will be installed next. A number of questions have come up regarding access to Catwalk Trail off Killington Peak. The Peak Walkway will cross Catwalk, however, the impact will be minimal and once the snow flies, skiers and riders won’t even know the walkway exists when making turns down the legendary trail.

Trail re-grading on Lower Bunny Buster is almost complete. Crews have widened the trail, removed the double fall line on skier’s right and added new culverts to channel runoff. In addition, numerous snowmaking hydrants were relocated and the section between Lower Bunny Buster and Mouse Run will be filled in and leveled out, providing an easier transition to the bottom of the K-1 Gondola.

Crews have also started the ledge blasting and re-grading on Lower Wildfire to remove the double fall line on skier’s right. Crews will also begin work in the coming weeks on moving the Superpipe at Bear Mountain approximately 22 feet to the west to accommodate the larger Olympic-sized pipe requirements (500-feet long with 22-foot walls) for the Jan. 20-23 Winter Dew Tour.

A new Techno-Alpin fan gun will be installed at the bottom of Superstar so the large rock and snowmaking hydrants near the bottom of the trail are being removed. We’re also building a new control room for the Superstar Express to house a new control system for one of our most popular lifts.

k insider link w/ pics:

http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/work-continue-on-numerous


----------



## jerryg (Sep 25, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> I guess you live in the "Boston Area" as well!



Sorry. MA for college only and that was in Wellesley, not too far from Boston, but a ways from much skiing. I like the HUB, but I wouldn't want to live there. Just a preference I suppose.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Sorry. MA for college only and that was in Wellesley, not too far from Boston, but a ways from much skiing. I like the HUB, but I wouldn't want to live there. Just a preference I suppose.



You did have Blue Hills.


----------



## jerryg (Sep 26, 2010)

Black Phantom said:


> You did have Blue Hills.



Yep, and at the time, Mt. Tom. Our ski team trained at both. I don';t think it helped us all that much. Wellesley Country Club may have more vert! 8)


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 27, 2010)

*Today: *Rain likely, mainly after 11am. Cloudy, with a high near 56. East wind around 9 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. 

*Tonight: *Rain. Low around 51. Southeast wind between 10 and 14 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between a half and three quarters of an inch possible. 

*Tuesday: *Rain, with thunderstorms also possible after 2pm. High near 65. Breezy, with a south wind between 17 and 24 mph, with gusts as high as 36 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New rainfall amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible. 

*Tuesday Night: *Occasional showers and possibly a thunderstorm before 8pm, then a chance of showers. Low around 47. Breezy, with a south wind between 14 and 20 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch, except higher amounts possible in thunderstorms. 

*Wednesday: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a high near 59. South wind between 11 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. 

*Wednesday Night: *A slight chance of showers after 2am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 36. Chance of precipitation is 20%.

*Thursday: *A chance of showers after 8am. Cloudy, with a high near 62. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

*Thursday Night: *Mostly cloudy, with a low around 39. 

*Friday: *Cloudy, with a high near 51. 

*Friday Night: *Mostly cloudy, with a low around 30. 

*Saturday: *Cloudy, with a high near 43. 

*Saturday Night: *Cloudy, with a low around 26. 

*Sunday: *Mostly cloudy, with a high near 44.


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> *Today: *Rain likely, mainly after 11am. Cloudy, with a high near 56. East wind around 9 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.
> 
> *Tonight: *Rain. Low around 51. Southeast wind between 10 and 14 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between a half and three quarters of an inch possible.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Weather will be getting more favorable day by day. Just a matter of time before we find out if K is serious or not about getting this season started.


----------



## Greg (Sep 27, 2010)

Accuweather. I know, I know, but the the first third of October looks pretty good for night-time snowmaking at elevation:

http://www.accuweather.com/us/vt/killington/05751/forecast-month.asp?mnyr=10-01-2010&view=table

Remember, the above are in town temps (maybe even Rutland?).


----------



## bobbutts (Sep 27, 2010)

Greg said:


> Accuweather. I know, I know, but the the first third of October looks pretty good for night-time snowmaking at elevation:
> 
> http://www.accuweather.com/us/vt/killington/05751/forecast-month.asp?mnyr=10-01-2010&view=table
> 
> Remember, the above are in town temps (maybe even Rutland?).



If you want to check the temps forecast at elevation using the same source as accuweather (GFS forecast model) you can get tons of detail right here:
http://www.twisterdata.com
Select GFS and then under temperature, select 925mb.. this is a temp forecast for roughly 2500' elevation.
For the current model run (12z/today) we see temps below 0c at hours 162 and 168
not much of a window.. but it's something


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 27, 2010)

bobbutts said:


> If you want to check the temps forecast at elevation using the same source as accuweather (GFS forecast model) you can get tons of detail right here:
> http://www.twisterdata.com
> Select GFS and then under temperature, select 925mb.. this is a temp forecast for roughly 2500' elevation.
> For the current model run (12z/today) we see temps below 0c at hours 162 and 168
> not much of a window.. but it's something


Cool, thanks for the link!


----------



## gpetrics (Sep 28, 2010)

flakes and cold air in the forecast for the big brewfest weekend... will killington pull the trigger and capture the imaginations of all those in attendance?

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=43.62315303795675&lon=-72.8228759765625


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 28, 2010)

gpetrics said:


> flakes and cold air in the forecast for the big brewfest weekend... will killington pull the trigger and capture the imaginations of all those in attendance?
> 
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=43.62315303795675&lon=-72.8228759765625


 
Unlimited free gondi rides for passholders too, BTW.  :beer:


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 28, 2010)

gpetrics said:


> flakes and cold air in the forecast for the big brewfest weekend... will killington pull the trigger and capture the imaginations of all those in attendance?
> 
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=43.62315303795675&lon=-72.8228759765625



you'll have a better chance of getting a 4oz brew...


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 28, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Dear Diary,
> 
> Someone on the Internet made funnnn of my overpriced ski clothing.


 
I picked out a new ski outfit for you.  Full waterproof, modern colors, and within your price range.

http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-136119/Detail


----------



## Black Phantom (Sep 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I picked out a new ski outfit for you.  Full waterproof, modern colors, and within your price range.
> 
> http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-136119/Detail



Funny, I know a guy that sports this outfit, or one similar, from time to time.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Update on the walkway, looks like they might need some railings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This pic has bothered me since seeing it.  I read that they were installing grates for the stairs, but it look s like they are using PR lumber for the treads.  This could be dicey.   Did anybody else read that somewhere? 


And cut the chipboard comments.


----------



## mondeo (Sep 28, 2010)

Puck it said:


> This pic has bothered me since seeing it. I read that they were installing grates for the stairs, but it look s like they are using PR lumber for the treads. This could be dicey. Did anybody else read that somewhere?
> 
> 
> And cut the chipboard comments.


Confused me as well. Maybe the lumber is for construction purposes, to be removed and replaced further along in the process?


----------



## Greg (Sep 28, 2010)

How about we just wait and see? I think it will be fine. After all, presumably people that want to ski in October and early November are pretty dedicated skiers and in decent enough shape that they'll be able to navigate the walkway safely. I have to assume that Powdr has carefully considered the risk, and they seem to think this is less of a liability than riding in a truck. I think we're overthinking it...

And the particle board will cushion the fall if you slip anyway... :razz:


----------



## bvibert (Sep 28, 2010)

Puck it said:


> This pic has bothered me since seeing it.  I read that they were installing grates for the stairs, but it look s like they are using PR lumber for the treads.  This could be dicey.   Did anybody else read that somewhere?
> 
> 
> And cut the chipboard comments.





mondeo said:


> Confused me as well. Maybe the lumber is for construction purposes, to be removed and replaced further along in the process?



Same here.  The Killington Insider mentioned 'bar grating' stairs and even linked to this page: http://www.fsindustries.com/stair.htm

I guess the wood stairs are just temporary like mondeo said???  That doesn't make a lot of sense, but whatever.

I'm sure it will be fine in the end...


----------



## mondeo (Sep 28, 2010)

Greg said:


> How about we just wait and see? I think it will be fine. After all, presumably people that want to ski in October and early November are pretty dedicated skiers and in decent enough shape that they'll be able to navigate the walkway safely. I have to assume that Powdr has carefully considered the risk, and they seem to think this is less of a liability than riding in a truck. I think we're overthinking it...


You must be new here. Welcome to AZ in non-ski season.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 28, 2010)

Greg said:


> How about we just wait and see? I think it will be fine. After all, presumably people that want to ski in October and early November are pretty dedicated skiers and in decent enough shape that they'll be able to navigate the walkway safely. I have to assume that Powdr has carefully considered the risk, and they seem to think this is less of a liability than riding in a truck. I think we're overthinking it...
> 
> And the particle board will cushion the fall if you slip anyway... :razz:


----------



## mountainman (Sep 28, 2010)

Who care's. Who is ever opened first is my ski's will be.


----------



## o3jeff (Sep 28, 2010)

Puck it said:


>



Btw thats strand board not particle


----------



## bigbob (Sep 28, 2010)

My guess is Darcy will be enjoying the beer Tom, aka Spinmaster, buys her!


----------



## jerryg (Sep 28, 2010)

Greg said:


> I have to assume that Powdr has carefully considered the risk, and they seem to think this is less of a liability than riding in a truck. I think we're overthinking it...:



Powdr's safety track record has come under fire in the past, out west.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Sep 29, 2010)

bigbob said:


> My guess is Darcy will be enjoying the beer Tom, aka Spinmaster, buys her!



Darcy rocks. I like Darcy.


----------



## skiadikt (Sep 29, 2010)

Greg said:


> How about we just wait and see? I think it will be fine. After all, presumably people that want to ski in October and early November are pretty dedicated skiers and in decent enough shape that they'll be able to navigate the walkway safely. I have to assume that Powdr has carefully considered the risk, and they seem to think this is less of a liability than riding in a truck. I think we're overthinking it...
> 
> And the particle board will cushion the fall if you slip anyway... :razz:



agree. think we'll all be able to find a way up whatever the surface is. you're gonna not have to do it more than once, maybe twice a day. if they run the lift i'd be happy to hike back up high traverse to the top.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> agree. think we'll all be able to find a way up whatever the surface is. you're gonna not have to do it more than once, maybe twice a day. if they run the lift i'd be happy to hike back up high traverse to the top.


 

Don't get me wrong. I would walk back with out the walkway.


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> Btw thats strand board not particle


 

This is chipboard. 

Particle is a totally different beast. I know that when I see it.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 29, 2010)

I think I've learned more about various wood products from this thread than I ever thought possible/cared to know!  :lol:


----------



## Puck it (Sep 29, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I think I've learned more about various wood products from this thread than I ever thought possible/cared to know! :lol:


 

Left off the OSB oriented strand board.  Not to be confused with chipboard.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 29, 2010)

Timberline Announces Season Opening!Get ready skiers and riders… this Friday, October 1st will mark the opening of the ski and snowboard season at Timberline! Late spring storms and focused summer grooming and maintenance of the Palmer Snowfield have provided a great level of snow above 7,000 feet.

We’ll be operating our Magic Mile and Palmer Chairs on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays through October (weather/conditions permitting). We’ll look to open more lifts as soon as the snow starts to fall and we can build a base on the lower mountain. And with the current La Nina forecast, all fingers are crossed that this will happen sooner rather than later!

All 2010-11 Timberline Full Winter Season Passes, including the Mt. Hood Fusion Pass, will be valid starting October 1st. You can purchase your Mt. Hood Fusion Pass at the mountain, or at Portland area REI stores on Saturdays & Sundays during the month of October. For more information, visit www.mthoodfusionpass.com.

Daily lift tickets will be available at reduced pricing until we have more lifts available to ride:

Adult (18-64) – $48
Teen (15-17) – $40
Junior (7-14) – $35
Senior (65-70) – $35

Please remember, the Palmer Snowfield is recommended for advanced intermediate and above skill level only, and downloading on the Magic Mile lift is required during the early season.

We’re looking forward to the longest snow season in


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 30, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Timberline Announces Season Opening!Get ready skiers and riders… this Friday, October 1st will mark the opening of the ski and snowboard season at Timberline! Late spring storms and focused summer grooming and maintenance of the Palmer Snowfield have provided a great level of snow above 7,000 feet.
> 
> We’ll be operating our Magic Mile and Palmer Chairs on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays through October (weather/conditions permitting). We’ll look to open more lifts as soon as the snow starts to fall and we can build a base on the lower mountain. And with the current La Nina forecast, all fingers are crossed that this will happen sooner rather than later!
> 
> ...


 
Timberline =/= Sunday River.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 30, 2010)

just thought it was fun the season was upon us.  here is the full story if you want, it does mention eastern  resorts as well.  



Which ski resort will open first?
September, 28, 2010 Sep 2807:09PM ETEmail Print Comment By Megan Michelson 

Courtesy of Loveland
Loveland started making snow last Friday with hopes of opening by mid October. 
Full story »



Skiers, place your bets. Oregon's Timberline Ski Area has announced that they're opening two chairlifts on Friday, October 1, thanks to summertime grooming on the Palmer Snowfiled. Meanwhile, Loveland, Colorado, began making snow over the weekend in preparation for a heated contest to become the first ski resort in the country to open. Loveland and neighboring Arapahoe Basin have gone head to head for the victory for the last 10 years. 



But there are underdogs to consider as well: California's Mammoth or Boreal, Maine's Sunday River or Sugarloaf, Utah's Brighton or Solitude, and even the Las Vegas Ski and Snowboard Resort all stand a chance at first place. 



Who do you think will win?



Full story »

Share5 Retweet1 
Sort comments by: Most Recent | First Posted

full linc


http://espn.go.com/action/freeskiing/blog/_/post/5627156/which-ski-resort-open-first?as


----------



## mister moose (Sep 30, 2010)

Bob R said:


> just thought it was fun the season was upon us.  here is the full story if you want, it does mention eastern  resorts as well.
> 
> Which ski resort will open first?
> September, 28, 2010 Sep 2807:09PM ETEmail Print Comment By Megan Michelson
> ...



Where's the Beast?


----------



## gmcunni (Oct 1, 2010)

apparently SkiVermont.com doesn't have faith in Killington opening this month.


----------



## icedtea (Oct 1, 2010)

skiadikt said:


>



good tunes.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 5, 2010)

Bump.....lots of rumors this weekend about a Oct. 23rd opening.  The walkway looks pretty good so far and the bar grate for the stairs is on it's way.


----------



## 180 (Oct 5, 2010)

It's so funny to hear everyone pick an opening day.  Opening will be 1or 2 days after they start making snow.  It is up to the weather to pick that day.  I am just glad that it should be sometime this month because of the "wood" stairs.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> apparently SkiVermont.com doesn't have faith in Killington opening this month.



weird.  Sugarbush is backwards


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 5, 2010)

180 said:


> It's so funny to hear everyone pick an opening day.  Opening will be 1or 2 days after they start making snow.  It is up to the weather to pick that day.  I am just glad that it should be sometime this month because of the "wood" stairs.



I agree. It is amusing to hear people talk about planned opening days in October. Goals are great, but it is impossible to actually plan an opening date this time of year. Mother Nature holds all the cards.

Not sure where I read this, but I think it was a quote from the mountain (again, not sure about this part), that Killington would start making snow when the forecast held at least 72 hours of consecutive snowmaking weather with temps in the 20's. If they are really holding out for a forecast that optimal, it could be a very disapointing Fall for many Killington skiers. Sunday River can and will open with 36 hours of consecutive snowmaking, and are not afraid to make snow at night when they know they will have to shut the guns off during the day. Kind of what you have to do to open in October most years.


----------



## Greg (Oct 5, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Not sure where I read this, but I think it was a quote from the mountain (again, not sure about this part), that Killington would start making snow when the forecast held at least 72 hours of consecutive snowmaking weather with temps in the 20's. If they are really holding out for a forecast that optimal, it could be a very disapointing Fall for many Killington skiers. Sunday River can and will open with 36 hours of consecutive snowmaking, and are not afraid to make snow at night when they know they will have to shut the guns off during the day. Kind of what you have to do to open in October most years.



That 72 hours sounds about right, especially when they used to aim for top to bottom. However, if they truly plan to hammer the glades and open just the top, they could probably offer more terrain than Sunday River with a 36 hour window.


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 5, 2010)

Greg said:


> That 72 hours sounds about right, especially when they used to aim for top to bottom. However, if they truly plan to hammer the glades and open just the top, they could probably offer more terrain than Sunday River with a 36 hour window.



I agree, but I think I read that they were waiting for a 72 hour window this season before they start making snow. I could be wrong about that though, and even if they said it, it doesn't make it set in stone. Even at 3000 feet it can easily be well into November before you see a window like that.

The fact is, 9 times out of 10 Killington can open sooner and expand faster than Sunday River given their HUGE elevation advantage. However, Sunday River has proven that they are committed to opening as soon as possible, and that they are willing to make snow with a less than optimal forecast and under less than optimal conditions. Killington has not. I guess time will tell whether they trully are committed to early season skiing and perhaps even being the first in the East to open, or whether, like Geoff suggested, they are just hedging their bets against being closed for Thanksgiving again.


----------



## bvibert (Oct 5, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> I guess time will tell whether they trully are committed to early season skiing and perhaps even being the first in the East to open, or whether, like Geoff suggested, they are just hedging their bets against being closed for Thanksgiving again.



That is the question of the season.  I suspect that we'll know for sure a few weeks from now.  Personally I'm hoping for the former, but could see it going either way.


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 5, 2010)

bvibert said:


> That is the question of the season.  I suspect that we'll know for sure a few weeks from now.  Personally I'm hoping for the former, but could see it going either way.



I hope they go for it too. My first day will be at Sunday River regardless, but I think competition is good. It will interesting watching this unfold..... One thing is for sure, if they don't push for an early opening, there will be K bashing threads of epic proportion!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 5, 2010)

Have to wonder how serious they are........hummmm. Snowmaking this weekend...? Jib park on Rime?



> *Tonight: *Rain likely, mainly after 2am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 47. Northeast wind 5 to 9 mph becoming southeast. Winds could gust as high as 33 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.
> 
> *Wednesday: *Rain. High near 48. East wind around 9 mph, with gusts as high as 41 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between a half and three quarters of an inch possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 5, 2010)

Oh, and in all seriousness, it looks like they have a pretty reasonable 12 hour window this saturday night:


----------



## skiadikt (Oct 5, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Oh, and in all seriousness, it looks like they have a pretty reasonable 12 hour window this saturday night:



they're not gonna turn on the guns for 12 hrs. they've said they're looking for a 3 day window. that "could" come the following weekend-borderline at best. but really unless we get some fluke cold spell, i don't see them looking to get serious about base building until the 20-25.


----------



## millerm277 (Oct 5, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> they're not gonna turn on the guns for 12 hrs. they've said they're looking for a 3 day window. that "could" come the following weekend-borderline at best. but really unless we get some fluke cold spell, i don't see them looking to get serious about base building until the 20-25.



Especially not since the ground is still quite warm.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 5, 2010)

Highwaysuperstar, I think you've got great passion, but you seem to set yourself up with these Kton situations and then you get all upset when they don't live up to your expectations. 

K has hedged their snowmaking by producing a modest 72-hour window. They don't need one for the upper mountain, in all likelihood, but by saying "we need a 72-hour window," they are leaving themselves an out in case they can't open in a smaller window. Will they start making it before that 72-hour window? Highly likely, but what evidence have they given you that they'll start pumping out snow that will likely melt, just because it's cold enough for 12 hours. Besides, cold doesn't mean crap if it's humid. Maybe they'll change their model and try and blow some wet base, but not if it's all gonna melt.


----------



## 2knees (Oct 5, 2010)

skiadikt said:


>



nice vid skiadkt


----------



## jerryg (Oct 5, 2010)

Why does this video keep getting posted? We get it, K used to truck people to the trail.


----------



## Brewbeer (Oct 5, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Why does this video keep getting posted?



Must be the music.


----------



## bigbob (Oct 6, 2010)

This thread may be  a waste. First area to get snow was Snowshoe, WV. Maybe they will get to open first!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Highwaysuperstar, I think you've got great passion, but you seem to set yourself up with these Kton situations and then you get all upset when they don't live up to your expectations.
> 
> K has hedged their snowmaking by producing a modest 72-hour window. They don't need one for the upper mountain, in all likelihood, but by saying "we need a 72-hour window," they are leaving themselves an out in case they can't open in a smaller window. Will they start making it before that 72-hour window? Highly likely, but what evidence have they given you that they'll start pumping out snow that will likely melt, just because it's cold enough for 12 hours. Besides, cold doesn't mean crap if it's humid. Maybe they'll change their model and try and blow some wet base, but not if it's all gonna melt.


 
You clearly don't know when Killington is sandbagging you.

If they had a 72 hour window of 20 degree or cooler temps at KBL, they could open top to bottom off the K-1 plus multiple extra trails.  Problem is, that won't actually happen until mid December.  

What's actually going to happen is that they are going to make some snow when it gets cold, and then some of it is going to melt because it will get warm afterwards.  Because that's what ALWAYS happens.  A solid overnight of 12 hours in the mid 20's is enough for MOST ski areas to make snow, and certainly enough for Killington.  Not to mention, the two nights prior are forecast as fairly cool, and could turn out colder.


----------



## 2knees (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Why does this video keep getting posted? We get it, K used to truck people to the trail.




wtf is up your ass.  It was a cool video and i wanted to give some props to the person who made it.  i couldnt give a rats ass about all the other crap in this thread.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 6, 2010)

bigbob said:


> This thread may be  a waste. First area to get snow was Snowshoe, WV. Maybe they will get to open first!



My vote is Woodbury in CT or Cataloochee in North Carolina


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

2knees said:


> wtf is up your ass.  It was a cool video and i wanted to give some props to the person who made it.  i couldnt give a rats ass about all the other crap in this thread.



Forgive me if I want some relative information in the thread that says one place is going to open before another. It's a dated video that is in the same thread 4 other times. Why post it again? Is there some secret information in there? 

So start a thread about the 'effin video. The video doesn't need ot be posted 5 times in the same thread for no other reason than you think it's cool and want to give props. Are you now going to post a video of you touching yourself because you think it's cool and want to give yourself props? 

Settle downs, stud!


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You clearly don't know when Killington is sandbagging you.
> 
> If they had a 72 hour window of 20 degree or cooler temps at KBL, they could open top to bottom off the K-1 plus multiple extra trails.  Problem is, that won't actually happen until mid December.
> 
> What's actually going to happen is that they are going to make some snow when it gets cold, and then some of it is going to melt because it will get warm afterwards.  Because that's what ALWAYS happens.  A solid overnight of 12 hours in the mid 20's is enough for MOST ski areas to make snow, and certainly enough for Killington.  Not to mention, the two nights prior are forecast as fairly cool, and could turn out colder.



KMart isn't doing anything to me and they haven't, but they continuously rain on your parade with opening and closing. I know the #s behind snowkaing and as you know, temps are one factor only. I was simply pointing out that you are getting your hopes up and in all likelihood, you will be on here posted threads about epic failing because of it.


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

Killington's projected opening date is November 12th. Sounds about right for POWDR.


----------



## bvibert (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Forgive me if I want some relative information in the thread that says one place is going to open before another. It's a dated video that is in the same thread 4 other times. Why post it again? Is there some secret information in there?
> 
> So start a thread about the 'effin video. The video doesn't need ot be posted 5 times in the same thread for no other reason than you think it's cool and want to give props. Are you now going to post a video of you touching yourself because you think it's cool and want to give yourself props?
> 
> Settle downs, stud!



No one posted the video again, though it has been quoted in replies by people who were commenting on it.  I don't understand what you're so upset about??  It's relevant to the thread...  No one is allowed to comment on it though?? :-?


----------



## mondeo (Oct 6, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Killington's projected opening date is November 12th. Sounds about right for POWDR.


Where are all the SR people getting this inside info from? November 12th would be the latest opening date since POWDR came in, even with needing to blow down to the K-1. The only person they've disappointed with respect to opening early in the last few years is Geoff. All I've seen is that any time after October 15th, once they get a snowmaking window, it's on.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> KMart isn't doing anything to me and they haven't, but they continuously rain on your parade with opening and closing. I know the #s behind snowkaing and as you know, temps are one factor only. I was simply pointing out that you are getting your hopes up and in all likelihood, you will be on here posted threads about epic failing because of it.


They've only rained on the closing day parade. A forecast a degree colder last year and they would've opened with SR on the 24th (they had plenty on Rime or Reason to beat SR, had they had the walkway,) year before they opened a day later on the 1st. Fact check yourself before you wreck yourself.


----------



## 2knees (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Forgive me if I want some relative information in the thread that says one place is going to open before another. It's a dated video that is in the same thread 4 other times. Why post it again? Is there some secret information in there?
> 
> So start a thread about the 'effin video. The video doesn't need ot be posted 5 times in the same thread for no other reason than you think it's cool and want to give props. Are you now going to post a video of you touching yourself because you think it's cool and want to give yourself props?
> 
> Settle downs, stud!



someone has sand in their vagina.


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Where are all the SR people getting this inside info from? November 12th would be the latest opening date since POWDR came in, even with needing to blow down to the K-1. The only person they've disappointed with respect to opening early in the last few years is Geoff. All I've seen is that any time after October 15th, once they get a snowmaking window, it's on.



No inside info here. Posted by Killington today on Twitter. Think you are a little off base too, saying Geoff was the only one disapointed with their opening dates the last couple years. You don't need to look farther than this forum to see that.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

bvibert said:


> No one posted the video again, though it has been quoted in replies by people who were commenting on it.  I don't understand what you're so upset about??  It's relevant to the thread...  No one is allowed to comment on it though?? :-?



Fair enough, but quoting a video is pretty similar to posting it again. Of course people can comment on anything., I was commenting on the fact that I was sick of watching the same people riding a truck at Killington, from several years ago.

I was just making a comment about being sick of seeing that video and what's his name started asking what is up my rear and talking about the rearends of rats.

It's not relavent to this thread. The only way that it relavent is that it's early season skiing and it happens to be prior to early season. Whil eI would agree that almost every thread in here is in some way about Killington and thus makes the video relavent, this thread is in regard to who will open first, not who took a truck down a road near the summit a decade ago.

Or are they going to truck people around again?


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

2knees said:


> someone has sand in their vagina.



So if anyone speaks out about being tired of seeingthe same video every single year when the tpoic of early season skiing comes up, they get sweared at and get vagina insinuations. Sorry I'm not a Killington homer trying to relive the glory days of 10 years ago, but the video is tired and needs to be retired. Buck up, Joseph!


----------



## 2knees (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Fair enough, but quoting a video is pretty similar to posting it again. Of course people can comment on anything., I was commenting on the fact that I was sick of watching the same people riding a truck at Killington, from several years ago.
> 
> I was just making a comment about being sick of seeing that video and what's his name started asking what is up my rear and talking about the rearends of rats.
> 
> ...





jerryg said:


> Yep, and at the time, Mt. Tom. Our ski team trained at both. I don';t think it helped us all that much. Wellesley Country Club may have more vert! 8)






jerryg said:


> Sorry. MA for college only and that was in Wellesley, not too far from Boston, but a ways from much skiing. I like the HUB, but I wouldn't want to live there. Just a preference I suppose.



and just exactly how are these fascinating posts in any way related to the original topic?  Just the facts, right chief?  

its a 15 page thread with 315+ replies.  If you felt the need to watch the same video 3 different times and then bitch about watching it 3 different times, i think that says more about you then someone quoting it.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

mondeo said:


> They've only rained on the closing day parade. A forecast a degree colder last year and they would've opened with SR on the 24th (they had plenty on Rime or Reason to beat SR, had they had the walkway,) year before they opened a day later on the 1st. Fact check yourself before you wreck yourself.



The fact of hte matter is that they didn't have the walkway before and they have not proven they will use it in October. Maybe they will and that would be great because it would mean less lines for the rest of us, but if you're talking about fact checking, apparently I'm doing just fine. Unless, in fact, they opened last year with a walkway...


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

mondeo said:


> They've only rained on the closing day parade. A forecast a degree colder last year and they would've opened with SR on the 24th (they had plenty on Rime or Reason to beat SR, had they had the walkway,) year before they opened a day later on the 1st. Fact check yourself before you wreck yourself.



Not sure if you need fact checking yourself or if it was just a typo, but Sunday River opened October 14th, no the 24th last year. Sunday River remained open on weekends after that and Killington didn't open until November. Not even close. Three weekends in a row they were the only game in town.


----------



## gmcunni (Oct 6, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> No inside info here. Posted by Killington today on Twitter.



You can't believe everything you read on twitter . . . 




gmcunni said:


>


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

2knees said:


> and just exactly how are these fascinating posts in any way related to the original topic?  Just the facts, right chief?
> 
> its a 15 page thread with 315+ replies.  If you felt the need to watch the same video 3 different times and then bitch about watching it 3 different times, i think that says more about you then someone quoting it.



Point taken, the video is still old and tired. Why have you been swearing at me and inferring my vagina? Why are you so upset? 

Sorry man. I'll make sure to praise Killington's decade old videos of trucks.

Sorry you got booted off KZone. Yikes!


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> You can't believe everything you read on twitter . . .



True, but POWDR likes to over promise/under deliver, as opposed to vice versa. Therefore, by that logic they are shooting for Thanksgiving.


----------



## Rambo (Oct 6, 2010)

From Killington Twitter:

"Opening day is slated for Nov. 12, weather and conditions permitting. May be earlier if Ma Nature is in a good mood!"


----------



## bvibert (Oct 6, 2010)

Alright boys, lets not degrade this important thread into name calling and personal insults...

Not just yet anyway... wait until after Killington beats Sunday River...


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

Actually, I apologize to whomever I offended. My comment about the videa was pretty dumb and looking back at it, I relize that whether or not I like seeing it again, I should have kept my mouth shut. 

Apologies, 2Knees! 

Jerry


----------



## mondeo (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> The fact of hte matter is that they didn't have the walkway before and they have not proven they will use it in October. Maybe they will and that would be great because it would mean less lines for the rest of us, but if you're talking about fact checking, apparently I'm doing just fine. Unless, in fact, they opened last year with a walkway...


Missed the point. Fact is they _have_ tried to open as early as they thought possible the last few years, despite SR having an edge in the early season setup department. Now they have the edge on lockdown. Had they had the walkway last year, they would've beaten SR. The snow was there, why wouldn't they?

Also, I can't seem to dig up the pictures, but they had signs up at the lifts saying "We will open for skiing and riding on [such and such date,] weather and conditions permitting" the last couple years, and beat those dates. Fact is they _have_ under promised and over delivered on opening dates.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 6, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Not sure if you need fact checking yourself or if it was just a typo, but Sunday River opened October 14th, no the 24th last year. Sunday River remained open on weekends after that and Killington didn't open until November. Not even close. Three weekends in a row they were the only game in town.


Wrong date, right situation. They had more snow than SR did, just no way to get down from where they had it.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

I guess that when Killington proves everyone wrong this year and beats Sunday River, the facts wil be different. I think that K opening as early as possible is awesome for the sport. The bottom line is that we are all on the same page here. People can back into their my mountain is better than yours things, but the real fact that is important is that if K and SR open around the same time, more people will ski and both places will have less crowds than they would if only one or the other opened. This is good for everyone.


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Missed the point. Fact is they _have_ tried to open as early as they thought possible the last few years, despite SR having an edge in the early season setup department. Now they have the edge on lockdown. Had they had the walkway last year, they would've beaten SR. The snow was there, why wouldn't they?
> 
> Also, I can't seem to dig up the pictures, but they had signs up at the lifts saying "We will open for skiing and riding on [such and such date,] weather and conditions permitting" the last couple years, and beat those dates. Fact is they _have_ under promised and over delivered on opening dates.



Not sure why you are so certain Killington would have opened mid October last year if they had the walk way. Sure that is the logical conclusion, but POWDR's decision making has defied logic on many occasions.

Bottom line, I hope they go for it, and really don't care if they do beat Sunday River. Titles are for marketing departments and have no effect on me as the consumer. October and early November were very busy at Sunday River last year and if Killington is actually open this year, the crowds won't be as bad. I am just doubtful, thats all.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 6, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Not sure why you are so certain Killington would have opened mid October last year if they had the walk way. Sure that is the logical conclusion, but POWDR's decision making has defied logic on many occasions.


 http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=64906&highlight=killington


----------



## Riverskier (Oct 6, 2010)

mondeo said:


> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=64906&highlight=killington



And your point? I know they made snow in October last year and I think they referred to it as "base building" snow. Perhaps they thought it would stick around and give them a head start in November, or later in October. I have no idea and I think only K management has that answer. If there is some sort of proof or evidence in that thread that they would have opened as soon as possible had they had the walkway, please point it out, as I don't have time to read 17 pages. Again, I hope they open as soon as possible, in fact tomorrow would be great! I just have my doubts and I am entitled to that dammit!


----------



## JerseyJoey (Oct 6, 2010)

It better snow soon or you guys are gonna kill eachother. BTW, JerryG is a good guy. Leave him alone. Nothing further to add..


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> It better snow soon or you guys are gonna kill eachother. BTW, JerryG is a good guy. Leave him alone. Nothing further to add..




I was being a dick and realize it and am an ok guys sometimes when I'm not being a dick.
Bob r will tell you that I am a dick often and he is right, but it's all relative.

No one's gonna kill each other, but man, these last few weeks before we get to go all GNAR on WROD with 10,000 other people, is tough. I just want to make some turns and hang out with some cool people.


----------



## Vortex (Oct 6, 2010)

Bvibert stay the hell out of this thread. This is great.  I am with Jerry. Early opening is good no matter where.  I requested opening day off yesterday. I just said I don't know what day that is. 

 5 years ago we were excited about turns before turkey day.   We have gained another month.  We need to work on the later closings next.

Jerry time for some live music and turns.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 6, 2010)

Rambo said:


> From Killington Twitter:
> 
> "Opening day is slated for Nov. 12, weather and conditions permitting. May be earlier if Ma Nature is in a good mood!"


Wow, why build the cat walk if opening day is going to be mid-November? Granted they can't always get T2B by then but more often than not they can.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 6, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, why build the cat walk if opening day is going to be mid-November? Granted they can't always get T2B by then but more often than not they can.



Must be added insurance so they can open by then regardless...


----------



## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> Must be added insurance so they can open by then regardless...



I would bet they really want to be in the race, at least at the local level. The folks out in PC probably don't care all that much, but I assume some of the K management has been here and knows what all this means. 

That being said, they may have seen the fact that they almos tdidn't get open for Thanksgiving weekend last year and just want to make absolutely sure that it doesn't happen again. Quick way to do it is with the traverse. Lift would have taken a lot longer for the permit.


----------



## bigbob (Oct 6, 2010)

Any word on when Mother Nature will give us the cold temps? Snowed in WV already. Some pink is showing up on radar over the Whites right now!


----------



## bvibert (Oct 6, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Bvibert stay the hell out of this thread.


----------



## 2knees (Oct 6, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Point taken, the video is still old and tired. Why have you been swearing at me and inferring my vagina? Why are you so upset?
> 
> Sorry man. I'll make sure to praise Killington's decade old videos of trucks.
> 
> Sorry you got booted off KZone. Yikes!







jerryg said:


> Actually, I apologize to whomever I offended. My comment about the videa was pretty dumb and looking back at it, I relize that whether or not I like seeing it again, I should have kept my mouth shut.
> 
> Apologies, 2Knees!
> 
> Jerry



don't apologize now.  I think you're just getting warmed up!


----------



## skiadikt (Oct 7, 2010)

more truckin ...



who woulda thunk that a guy with the name jerryg woulda got so bent by a video with grateful dead music ... anyway from now on, promise to post it only once a year .... need the money from the hits ;-)


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 7, 2010)

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........



> *today: *occasional showers, mainly before 1pm. Patchy fog before 11am. High near 48. Windy, with a west wind between 28 and 37 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.
> 
> *tonight: *mostly clear, with a low around 37. Very windy, with a northwest wind between 43 and 45 mph.
> 
> ...


----------



## Greg (Oct 7, 2010)

I don't see it happening quite yet, but consistently cooler nighttime temps is a good thing. Maybe mid-month?


----------



## jerryg (Oct 7, 2010)

2knees said:


> don't apologize now.  I think you're just getting warmed up!




I'm not sure what you mean. We were both being a$$es. I manned up to it. I never said you needed to. 

Enjoy!


----------



## mondeo (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. We were both being a$$es. I manned up to it. I never said you needed to.
> 
> Enjoy!


 2knees likes a good flame war. He wanted to keep it going.


----------



## 2knees (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. We were both being a$$es. I manned up to it. I never said you needed to.
> 
> Enjoy!



just meant that the whole thing was so ridiculous an apology wasnt even neccessary.  its all good.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I would bet they really want to be in the race, at least at the local level. The folks out in PC probably don't care all that much, but I assume some of the K management has been here and knows what all this means.
> 
> That being said, they may have seen the fact that they almos tdidn't get open for Thanksgiving weekend last year and just want to make absolutely sure that it doesn't happen again. Quick way to do it is with the traverse. Lift would have taken a lot longer for the permit.


 

They were not open for T-day weekend last year if remember right.  I think they reopended 12/3.


----------



## gpetrics (Oct 7, 2010)

Puck it said:


> They were not open for T-day weekend last year if remember right.  I think they reopended 12/3.



not sure on the reopen date... but they were DEFINITELY closed on Thanksgiving day.

being closed made the skiing/riding really frigging good


----------



## bvibert (Oct 7, 2010)

gpetrics said:


> being closed made the skiing/riding really frigging good



Looks like a fun day!  Nice shots.


----------



## neil (Oct 7, 2010)

gpetrics said:


> not sure on the reopen date... but they were DEFINITELY closed on Thanksgiving day.
> 
> being closed made the skiing/riding really frigging good



I was under the impression that Killington chased off any hikers.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 7, 2010)

neil said:


> I was under the impression that Killington chased off any hikers.



They really can't.   The ski resort is on state forest land.   Part of their lease is that they make the mountain available.   They own the parking lot so they can tow your car but once you're on state forest land, I don't think they can touch you.  You're not trespassing.   You're not stealing services.   Some ambassador might mouth off to you but you can just laugh and tell them they're welcome to call the cops.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 11, 2010)

Well, it looks like SR made snow first, but who will actually open first?


----------



## jerryg (Oct 11, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Well, it looks like SR made snow first, but who will actually open first?



Based on the efforts with the walkway, I would say Killington, but as others have said, perhaps that's just to make sure they don't get left out of TDay again. Powdr's track record is what it is.

I wish them luck. Let's get everyone open early!


----------



## gpetrics (Oct 11, 2010)

I've always found that parking the car on the public road (not in the lots), politely listening to any Killington employees, taking names, and then informing them that you are there to access your national forest works pretty well. 

No need to get confrontational or rude. However listening, and then asserting what you believe to be your rights is...well...within your rights


----------



## jerryg (Oct 11, 2010)

Killington just posted like 15+ Tweets in a row about being ready for snowmaking and the season pass deadline. Point taken! :wink:


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 12, 2010)

Actual snow in forecast for Killington:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30615&p=420527#p420527


----------



## gpetrics (Oct 12, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Killington just posted like 15+ Tweets in a row about being ready for snowmaking and the season pass deadline. Point taken! :wink:



or a feeble attempt to fight back against the Sunday River Snowmaking Leviathan!

(or I missed your sarcasm which is not unlikely)


----------



## jerryg (Oct 12, 2010)

gpetrics said:


> or a feeble attempt to fight back against the Sunday River Snowmaking Leviathan!
> 
> (or I missed your sarcasm which is not unlikely)



There was sarcasm. I would think the super-multiple Tweets was an error in the Twitter feed like double posts on boards, etc. :wink:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 13, 2010)

It's pretty bad when Magic is blowing out the mice before the "largest snowmaking system" does:


----------



## mondeo (Oct 13, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> It's pretty bad when Magic is blowing out the mice before the "largest snowmaking system" does:


You mean waters the lawn?


----------



## 2knees (Oct 13, 2010)

I think that picture was from about a week ago.  

and yes, that is one hell of a sprinkler.


----------



## gmcunni (Oct 13, 2010)

the BEAST doesn't water the grass


----------



## vonski (Oct 14, 2010)

this forecast could help to get things going!!!  http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Killington/6day/top.   Wish I could earn some turns!


----------



## Geoff (Oct 14, 2010)

vonski said:


> this forecast could help to get things going!!!  http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Killington/6day/top.   Wish I could earn some turns!



A foot of snow on unfrozen ground with 50 mph winds.   I'll pass.


----------



## vonski (Oct 14, 2010)

No worry about windhold. But I think that Saturday would be better!!!!


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## Highway Star (Oct 18, 2010)

Tom says no plans to open this weekend...........???

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30648&p=421013#p421013

Huh.  If we lost Heavenly Traverse as a skiable trail, and they don't open in October.....that would be pretty lame.


----------



## neil (Oct 18, 2010)

Ready to declare an "Epic Fail" yet Highway?


----------



## skiadikt (Oct 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Tom says no plans to open this weekend...........???
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30648&p=421013#p421013
> 
> Huh.  If we lost Heavenly Traverse as a skiable trail, and they don't open in October.....that would be pretty lame.



think their idea of early is not oct 15-20 but more like halloween weekend.


----------



## Vortex (Oct 18, 2010)

I would like to ski asap, but I think being open for the Halloween weekend would be something both resorts and patrons would be happy with,

 Sr River cause its making a tradition of a fun party weekend and K casue its going to change its public view to some.  More the non property owner market. Stuff they can say and promote at Ski shows.  

I hope K opens soon and the same with the River.

After that  being said  hope we have options for this weekend.

I would prefer Maine, cause that is where I will be.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 18, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> think their idea of early is not oct 15-20 but more like halloween weekend.



+1

I'd add that if the weather looks lousy on Halloween weekend, the POWDR version of Killington is probably conservative enough to delay opening even if there is plenty of snow pack on Rime.   I think the wood walkway on Heavenly Traverse is insurance against another Thanksgiving like last year, not so they can open for a few days in mid-October.   I'd love to ski Halloween weekend but I won't be totally destroyed if it's socked in up there and they decide to push it a week.   I'm far more interested in May corn snow on Superstar than October white ribbon of death on Rime.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 18, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Tom says no plans to open this weekend...........???
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30648&p=421013#p421013
> 
> Huh.  If we lost Heavenly Traverse as a skiable trail, and they don't open in October.....that would be pretty lame.



Who cares that HT was lost? It was nothing special. As you know, the stairway not only might help them open earlier, but also is insurance against warmups where Snowdon is a wash.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 18, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Who cares that HT was lost? It was nothing special. As you know, the stairway not only might help them open earlier, but also is insurance against warmups where Snowdon is a wash.



Some of us used it frequently.   I always skied Catwalk ladies tee a lot.   I used it to access West Glade from the top frequently.... in particular, in the late spring when I want to walk up Killink to ski Snowdon after those lifts close.   Those first turns on upper Catwalk are usually snowboarder-scraped down to ledge.   You often have to straightline it and make an emergency turn at the corner.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 19, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Who cares that HT was lost? It was nothing special. As you know, the stairway not only might help them open earlier, but also is insurance against warmups where Snowdon is a wash.


 
You = fail. 

Heavenly Traverse allowed entertaining gondi laps through the glades area, then down through racer's edge etc. It was very useful when the Canyon Quad was shut down. 

Not having it will materially detract from my mid season skiing experience, if only by a small amount. I expect to get 2-3 weekends more of early season skiing. If they wimp out and don't use it, I'll be annoyed.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 19, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Not having it will materially detract from my mid season skiing experience, if only by a small amount. I expect to get 2-3 weekends more of early season skiing. If they wimp out and don't use it, I'll be annoyed.



no one cares?


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 19, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Some of us used it frequently.   I always skied Catwalk ladies tee a lot.   I used it to access West Glade from the top frequently.... in particular, in the late spring when I want to walk up Killink to ski Snowdon after those lifts close.   Those first turns on upper Catwalk are usually snowboarder-scraped down to ledge.   You often have to straightline it and make an emergency turn at the corner.



I used it frequently too. If it benefits the early season at all, it's no loss in my book.


----------



## skiadikt (Oct 19, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You = fail.
> 
> Heavenly Traverse allowed entertaining gondi laps through the glades area, then down through racer's edge etc. It was very useful when the Canyon Quad was shut down.
> 
> Not having it will materially detract from my mid season skiing experience, if only by a small amount. I expect to get 2-3 weekends more of early season skiing. If they wimp out and don't use it, I'll be annoyed.



agree - what am i saying ...... 

you & geoff are spot on. definitely a "useful" little trail. most folks don't know the trail exists but it served it's purpose as a connecting trail. a way to avoid the great northern cluster f*ck. if they're not going to use it to open the mtn early then it's pretty much a waste. don't need no stinkin stairway, folks can hike back up to the k1 just as easily or if you were going to put a stairway in, put one of the metal stairways (like the one going to catwalk) far skier's right on the headwall. hike or ski high traverse over.


----------



## powhunter (Oct 19, 2010)

Yep definately a little gem of trail that was free of the masses..Once mid season comes about that staircase will be buried and easily skied

steveo


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 19, 2010)

powhunter said:


> Yep definately a little gem of trail that was free of the masses..Once mid season comes about that staircase will be buried and easily skied
> 
> steveo



Do you really think that there will be enough snow to ski it?  It was nice to use, but I only usually used it about once in a three day weekend.  

I'm not usually in the game for early or late skiing at Kton but it seems like a no brainer to build the walkway and ski as early as possible.  Of course everyone's definition of early is different:wink:


----------



## mondeo (Oct 19, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> a way to avoid the great northern cluster f*ck.


Just go straight and stick to the edge.

Seems like some people need to polish their people slalom skills.


----------



## millerm277 (Oct 19, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Just go straight and stick to the edge.



Exactly. The "slow people" don't like to ski 2 inches from the cliff/rock, and if you just hang left (or duck down FIS), you avoid 90% of the people and maintain speed into the flat over to the Glades.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 19, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Of course everyone's definition of early is different:wink:



We will see shortly, what Powdr's definition is. It would be nice, if it is asap, but at this point it's unclear with their recent history.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Oct 19, 2010)




----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 19, 2010)

Is that pic from today?  I checked the peak cam about 7:15ish and it didn't look like the guns were firing.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Oct 19, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Is that pic from today?  I checked the peak cam about 7:15ish and it didn't look like the guns were firing.



I think yesterday. I saw no snowmaking either this morning from the cams.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 19, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


>


 

At the top of the Canyon quad.  Interesting?????


----------



## Rambo (Oct 19, 2010)

Maybe Brenton Woods will open first?
Oct. 19

http://www.brettonwoods.com/winter_sports/photos_and_cams/#


----------



## WJenness (Oct 19, 2010)

Rambo said:


> Maybe Brenton Woods will open first?
> Oct. 19
> 
> http://www.brettonwoods.com/winter_sports/photos_and_cams/#



Nice!

Early season competition FTW!

-w


----------



## jerryg (Oct 19, 2010)

It would be funny if BW creeped in and busted out the first lift-servioced day.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 19, 2010)

It would be... and their temps make it look like overnight blows are possible for the next few days:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...78&site=gyx&smap=1&unit=0&lg=en&FcstType=text (Forecast for the base).

-w


----------



## Greg (Oct 19, 2010)

jerryg said:


> It would be funny if BW creeped in and busted out the first lift-servioced day.



I'll be up in NH this weekend. Maybe I should toss my skis in the car... :idea:


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> At the top of the Canyon quad.  Interesting?????


Why? Ski down to Glades requires traversing under the Canyon Quad, right?


----------



## Puck it (Oct 19, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Why? Ski down to Glades requires traversing under the Canyon Quad, right?


 

That is right but they never start with the guns there.  They pour the guns on Rime ans Reason first.  It may be just different due the natural base all ready.  I guess I was wising for the quad to spen before the triple.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> That is right but they never start with the guns there. They pour the guns on Rime ans Reason first. It may be just different due the natural base all ready. I guess I was wising for the quad to spen before the triple.


While that would be fantastic, I'm guessing unless there's a prolonged period where they just can't blow that last few hundred feet of vertical, they'll stick with the same rollout they've been doing; get the family friendly terrain ready for Thanksgiving, then start hitting up anything harder than Mouse Trap.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> That is right but they never start with the guns there.  They pour the guns on Rime ans Reason first.  It may be just different due the natural base all ready.  I guess I was wising for the quad to spen before the triple.


I can't see that ever happening. The steeper terrain accessible by the Canyon Quad would require radically more significant amount of snow making efforts... to cover the width of those wide trails, to cover their longer length, and also to blow a bigger base depth which steeper and rockier trails require. Plus, the base of the Canyon Quad is not too much higher than the KBL, the lower vert limits early season snow making opportunities. Would be great if they could but it just does not make sense from a resort opening perspective, especially considering many skiers might not enjoy that type of steep terrain when efforts could be focused on easier trails.


----------



## Beast_Ed (Oct 19, 2010)

Is KMart gonna open tomorrow (Wed) or what?  Or perhaps Thursday?


----------



## mondeo (Oct 19, 2010)

Beast_Ed said:


> Is KMart gonna open tomorrow (Wed) or what? Or perhaps Thursday?


Doesn't look like another snowmaking window until Thursday night, and Thursday looks dreary. I'd think a late Friday opening at the earliest, but hopefull Saturday is a definate.

*Tonight: *Isolated showers before 10pm. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 25. South wind around 8 mph. Chance of precipitation is 20%.

*Wednesday: *Mostly cloudy, with a high near 49. South wind around 9 mph. 

*Wednesday Night: *A chance of rain showers before 2am, then a chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 29. South wind between 10 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%. Little or no snow accumulation expected. 

*Thursday: *A chance of rain and snow showers before 11am, then a chance of rain showers. Cloudy, with a high near 40. South wind 11 to 13 mph becoming west. Winds could gust as high as 23 mph. Chance of precipitation is 50%. New precipitation amounts between a tenth and quarter of an inch possible. 

*Thursday Night: *A slight chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 19. West wind between 7 and 10 mph. Chance of precipitation is 20%.

*Friday: *Partly sunny, with a high near 33. 

*Friday Night: *Mostly cloudy, with a low around 20. 

*Saturday: *Cloudy, with a high near 41. 

*Saturday Night: *Mostly cloudy, with a low around 25. 

*Sunday: *Mostly cloudy, with a high near 44. 

*Sunday Night: *A chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 29. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

*Monday: *A chance of rain showers. Cloudy, with a high near 47. Chance of precipitation is 40%.

*Monday Night: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a low around 33. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

*Tuesday: *Cloudy, with a high near 49.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 19, 2010)

Puck it said:


> That is right but they never start with the guns there.  They pour the guns on Rime ans Reason first.  It may be just different due the natural base all ready.  I guess I was wising for the quad to spen before the triple.



Sure they do. Almost everyy year they make snow on Upper Double Dipper at the same time as Rime and East Glade err Reason.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm sure the natural they received last weekend allowed them to spread guns all the way to the top, instead of just hammering rime and reason.  It ususally doesn't take long for them to spread to upper double dipper and up Great Northern though.

It didn't apear that they blew snow last night, unless it was during dark hours only.  I'm guessing an opening for this weekend is out of the question.  They have to be close though from looking at the pictures of everyone who hiked last weekend.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 20, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Sure they do. Almost everyy year they make snow on Upper Double Dipper at the same time as Rime and East Glade err Reason.


 

Not until they are done the Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall then the Upper Dipper gets the goods.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 20, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Not until they are done the Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall then the Upper Dipper gets the goods.


Yeah, I think that was just the GN crossing though.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Yeah, I think that was just the GN crossing though.


 

Look again. It looks like the top near the quad.  The tower guns is in the back.  I may be wrong though.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 20, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Look again. It looks like the top near the quad.  The tower guns is in the back.  I may be wrong though.



Looks like GN Crossing to me.

I guess I am wrong but It can't be many days after the two are opened before Double Dipper get's it.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 20, 2010)

[/IMG]

I think its at the GN X-over. if you look at the gun on the left, it appears that there is a trail perpendicular to the lift.

eitherway.  It looks like they aren't that far away from spinning lifts


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 20, 2010)

Here's what I just posted over on K-zone in response to someone claiming they would open Friday:



			
				Highway Star said:
			
		

> Let's be realistic here. You need to look at the forecast graph:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think it's pretty likely they will be able to get open Saturday.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 20, 2010)

And while we're at it, here's the same graph for Sunday River:






Looks like they'll be able to fire up the guns a few hours later (3am-ish) than Killington and also make a run at it, though it will be very marginal mid-day Friday.  IMHO almost impossible for them to get open Friday, unless it's on very thin cover.  Friday night it will get colder quickly and they should get some solid production overnight, seems like a good chance they will get open Saturday.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 20, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> And while we're at it, here's the same graph for Sunday River:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I'm guessing they aren't working with an existing base. Odds of Killington going with a soft opening at noon on Friday if they see SR fire up the guns Thursday night? Just enough to grab the title, then open with decent coverage at 10 on Saturday.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 20, 2010)

Like K, I highly douby SR will open just for the sake of opening. When T2 has been opened in the past, the cover has been very good and only declined due to ncp and warm weather. They typically don't open until they blow the heck out of that trail. That said, unless they secretly made snow earlier this week, they will not open this weekend. There isn't enough time with the marginal temps.

Geography has not been kind to Maine this October, but then again, it's only October.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 20, 2010)

K and Sunday River can open up any time they want.  They have had the weather the past two weeks and the foot of snow did not hurt.   The rain event thursday is looking to be smaller than expected.  
Off of lift six @ whiteface it appears that Parens and Skyward have enough coverage to ski.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> K and Sunday River can open up any time they want.  They have had the weather the past two weeks and the foot of snow did not hurt.



Maine has NOT had the weather... the guns have been quiet except for the one 'blow for show' that SR had...

They also didn't get ANY snow out of that storm that shined on Killington.

K's got a HUGE head start this year...

-w


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 20, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Maine has NOT had the weather... the guns have been quiet except for the one 'blow for show' that SR had...
> 
> They also didn't get ANY snow out of that storm that shined on Killington.
> 
> ...


 
+ 1.  Most of the snow we got has melted at mid latitudes.  Honestly we have only had one or two nights of marginal temps for snowmaking as well.  To say that any resort could be open now is a stretch.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 20, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1.  Most of the snow we got has melted at mid latitudes.  Honestly we have only had one or two nights of marginal temps for snowmaking as well.  To say that any resort could be open now is a stretch.




I assumed we all got similar temps.   Its been below freezing almost every night in the past two weeks over here.  If you did not bring your mums inside at night they have just about had it.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> K and Sunday River can open up any time they want. They have had the weather the past two weeks and the foot of snow did not hurt. The rain event thursday is looking to be smaller than expected.
> Off of lift six @ whiteface it appears that Parens and Skyward have enough coverage to ski.


 
Killington could have in theory been open this past weekend.  They had at least 3-4 decent overnight snowmaking windows that week, but didn't make snow because they probably "thought it was too early" and were expecting rain, but instaid got 1-2 ft of snow.  Not the first time they made bad decisions based on a long term forecast.  They also probably didn't have the walkway open.  

They old-school killington (with the double) would have been making snow several times last week, and probably would have been open last Tuesday or Wednesday, and easily would have been open last weekend.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I assumed we all got similar temps.   Its been below freezing almost every night in the past two weeks over here.  If you did not bring your mums inside at night they have just about had it.



Nope, temps has been MUCH better for snowmkaing in central VT than anywhere else in New England. Very strange weather patterns have had warmer temps at more northern latitudes. SR has not had any snow and SL has had very limited and what there was, is gone. 

My guess is that there is no lift-services skiing in New England this weekend, sadly. uke:


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 20, 2010)

There are a few pics from alpinista on TGR from earlier today at K.  Doesn't look good for opening this weekend.


----------



## threecy (Oct 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I assumed we all got similar temps.   Its been below freezing almost every night in the past two weeks over here.  If you did not bring your mums inside at night they have just about had it.



Ski areas need more than just a few hours at 32 degrees to make snow.

Also, it was quite windy through Monday.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 20, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> There are a few pics from alpinista on TGR from earlier today at K. Doesn't look good for opening this weekend.


Doesn't look all that bad. Thin now, but 40 hours of snowmaking can do a lot. They can open SS in under 24 hours from scratch. Still wouldn't be surprised if they pull it off.


----------



## threecy (Oct 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Doesn't look all that bad. Thin now, but 40 hours of snowmaking can do a lot. They can open SS in under 24 hours from scratch. Still wouldn't be surprised if they pull it off.



There's a big difference between normal snowmaking ops and marginal ops.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> There's a big difference between normal snowmaking ops and marginal ops.



QFT....

It can be the difference between barely painting the grass white (night of marginal temps), or creating epic whales night of optimal temps)...

-w


----------



## mondeo (Oct 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> There's a big difference between normal snowmaking ops and marginal ops.


At the base of the NRT, they have 14 hours between 20° and 27° dewpoint, and 21 hours under 20°F dewpoint, down to 9. Non-ideal, but with ideal conditions they're within spitting distance of opening. And I've skied on thinner cover than they have now.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> At the base of the NRT, they have 14 hours between 20° and 27° dewpoint, and 21 hours under 20°F dewpoint, down to 9. Non-ideal, but with ideal conditions they're within spitting distance of opening. And I've skied on thinner cover than they have now.


And the forecast seems to keep getting colder. 35 hours straight below 20F dewpoint.


----------



## skiingsnow (Oct 20, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> They had at least 3-4 decent overnight snowmaking windows that week, but didn't make snow because they probably "thought it was too early" *and were expecting rain, but instaid got 1-2 ft of snow.*  Not the first time they made bad decisions based on a long term forecast.  They also probably didn't have the walkway open.



They still got rain before the snow... And the mountain was open for hiking/biking/leef peeping through Monday, and temps were very marginal even at 4200' so there really wasn't any window until after the snow, in my opinion...


----------



## WJenness (Oct 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> And the forecast seems to keep getting colder. 35 hours straight below 20F dewpoint.



Keep an eye on the humidity... looks to be pretty high, if that comes down, they can get MUCH better production...

-w


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 20, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> There are a few pics from alpinista on TGR from earlier today at K. Doesn't look good for opening this weekend.


 
The pic of upper east fall does not look encouraging, but the others look ok.  It's just helpful for them to have frozen ground or ice to blow snow on.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> Ski areas need more than just a few hours at 32 degrees to make snow.
> 
> Also, it was quite windy through Monday.



Thanks Threecy.  I made snow back in the late 80.  I have an idea what type of weather you need to blow snow.   K could have been open.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 20, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> They still got rain before the snow... And the mountain was open for hiking/biking/leef peeping through Monday, and temps were very marginal even at 4200' so there really wasn't any window until after the snow, in my opinion...



And rain after th snow.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> There's a big difference between normal snowmaking ops and marginal ops.



Really do tell.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 20, 2010)

Another friend of threecy.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 21, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> They still got rain before the snow... And the mountain was open for hiking/biking/leef peeping through Monday, and temps were very marginal even at 4200' so there really wasn't any window until after the snow, in my opinion...





I see 9 out of ten days they could have flipped the guns.  Put the foot of snow on it and they would have had some terrain open.  Now look at the forecast, its looking like crap for the next ten days.  7 out of the then they wont be able to do anything.   Its early season.  If your goal is to open first you gots to shit and git when it the opportunity presents itself.


----------



## threecy (Oct 21, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Really do tell.


Assuming no bumping or oscillating and one gun...
At 32 degrees WB, you may end up essentially frosting the grass after a night of snowmaking.
At 20 degrees WB, you may end up with a 5 foot tall pile after a night of snowmaking.
At 10 degrees WB, you may end up with a 12 foot pile after a night of snowmaking.

I have zero first hand air-water gun experience though.  From what I've seen, unless there's plentiful air, they don't perform as well as Wizzards or Arecos (fan guns) when its marginal.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

It does not look good for this weekend and the following weekend will not happen based on the 10 day forecast.  Starting Saturday, the lows will only be in the 40's and even 50's early in the week amd all the way through 10/30


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> It does not look good for this weekend and the following weekend will not happen based on the 10 day forecast. Starting Saturday, the lows will only be in the 40's and even 50's early in the week amd all the way through 10/30


 
Tough to say.  It's still looking like they have a solid 30+ hour snowmkaing window from Thursday night to Saturday morning.  That's certainly enough to get open if they wanted to.  The rain that is now forecasted for Sunday does not look good but that's still 3 days out and it could miss entirely or come down as snow.  Beginning of next week doesn't look good either bur that's many days out.  

Very, very tough to call, it all depends how motivated they are to get open and if they are bothered by the possiblity of a marginal day on Sunday or getting shut down next week for an undefined period.  

At this point, I think they will make snow because it's too good of a window to pass up.  And if they make good snow, it's tough to pass up on opening this weekend while most of the snow is there and fresh.  We'll clearly know more tomorrow if snowguns are running all day.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Oh yeah, here's the forecast at elevation, decide for yourself:



> *This Afternoon: *Occasional rain showers before 2pm, then snow showers likely. High near 44. Breezy, with a west wind between 20 and 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. Total daytime snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
> 
> *Tonight: *A chance of snow showers, mainly before 7pm. Cloudy, then gradually becoming partly cloudy, with a low around 18. Breezy, with a west wind between 18 and 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Tough to say.  It's still looking like they have a solid 30+ hour snowmkaing window from Thursday night to Saturday morning.  That's certainly enough to get open if they wanted to.  The rain that is now forecasted for Sunday does not look good but that's still 3 days out and it could miss entirely or come down as snow.  Beginning of next week doesn't look good either bur that's many days out.
> 
> Very, very tough to call, it all depends how motivated they are to get open and if they are bothered by the possiblity of a marginal day on Sunday or getting shut down next week for an undefined period.
> 
> At this point, I think they will make snow because it's too good of a window to pass up.  And if they make good snow, it's tough to pass up on opening this weekend while most of the snow is there and fresh.  We'll clearly know more tomorrow if snowguns are running all day.



Your description of weather conditions make a great argument against trying to open.


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Tough to say.  It's still looking like they have a solid 30+ hour snowmkaing window from Thursday night to Saturday morning.  That's certainly enough to get open if they wanted to.  The rain that is now forecasted for Sunday does not look good but that's still 3 days out and it could miss entirely or come down as snow.  Beginning of next week doesn't look good either bur that's many days out.
> 
> Very, very tough to call, it all depends how motivated they are to get open and if they are bothered by the possiblity of a marginal day on Sunday or getting shut down next week for an undefined period.
> 
> At this point, I think they will make snow because it's too good of a window to pass up.  And if they make good snow, it's tough to pass up on opening this weekend while most of the snow is there and fresh.  We'll clearly know more tomorrow if snowguns are running all day.



I think they missed there opportunity.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> Your description of weather conditions make a great argument against trying to open.



+1

-w


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> Your description of weather conditions make a great argument against trying to open.


 
Don't be so negative. If they passed on making snow every time there was some rain in the 5 or 10 day forecast, they wouldn't get open until December. Seriously. They are playing in the big leagues here, and if they want to open early, they need to be willing to make snow at every window and take the chance some of it will melt. If this was the old Killington there is no question they would make snow and open this weekend. It can be done. And they probably would have been open last weekend. 

Problem is, these new guys already have a long history of blowing the call, such as last spring when they shut down early before the snowstorm. They signal intent, willingness, such as with the walkway, but when it comes time to make the risky, agressive move, they wimp out and take an overly conservative path. They have the strategy and tools in place, they just need to believe in it and use it to their advantage.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Oh yeah, here's the forecast at elevation, decide for yourself:


 

These numbers do not jive with yours.

*Today* 




Hi *47°F*Lo *27°F*
Precip*60 %*

 *22* 




Hi *44°F*Lo *25°F*
Precip*20 %*

 *23* 








Hi *51°F*Lo *31°F*
Precip*10 %*

 *24* 




Hi *53°F*Lo *43°F*
Precip*30 %*

 *25* 




Hi *59°F*Lo *48°F*
Precip*40 %*

 *26* 




Hi *58°F*Lo *48°F*
Precip*40 %*

 *27* 




Hi *60°F*Lo *42°F*
Precip*30 %*

 *28* 




Hi *54°F*Lo *43°F*
Precip*10 %*

 *29* 




Hi *50°F*Lo *35°F*
Precip*60 %*

 *30* 








Hi *48°F*Lo *31°F*
Precip*60 %*


----------



## mondeo (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> These numbers do not jive with yours.
> 
> *Today*
> 
> ...


 Subtract about 8 degrees from yours. HS is using a forecast at altitude.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Subtract about 8 degrees from yours. HS is using a forecast at altitude.


 

That is for the resort, which I am assuming is the KBL.

From NOAA at altitude, looks a little better but I doubt the could blow.

*This Afternoon: *Rain showers likely before 5pm, then rain likely, possibly mixed with snow showers. Cloudy, with a high near 44. Breezy, with a west wind between 20 and 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. Total daytime snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible. 

*Tonight: *A chance of snow showers, mainly before 7pm. Cloudy, then gradually becoming partly cloudy, with a low around 18. Breezy, with a west wind between 17 and 21 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%. New snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible. 

*Friday: *A slight chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 28. Breezy, with a west wind between 18 and 25 mph. Chance of precipitation is 20%.

*Friday Night: *Mostly cloudy, with a low around 24. Breezy, with a northwest wind between 18 and 22 mph. 

*Saturday: *Partly sunny, with a high near 38. West wind between 14 and 16 mph. 

*Saturday Night: *A chance of snow showers after 2am. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 27. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

*Sunday: *A chance of rain and snow showers before 8am, then a chance of rain showers. Cloudy, with a high near 48. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

*Sunday Night: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a low around 36. Chance of precipitation is 40%.

*Monday: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a high near 52. Chance of precipitation is 50%.

*Monday Night: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a low around 40. Chance of precipitation is 50%.

*Tuesday: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a high near 53. Chance of precipitation is 50%.

*Tuesday Night: *A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a low around 37. Chance of precipitation is 40%.

*Wednesday: *A chance of showers. Cloudy and breezy, with a high near 49. Chance of precipitation is 40%


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> These numbers do not jive with yours.
> 
> *Today*
> 
> ...


 
Well, that's because...............



















wait for it...............
















YOU = EPIC FORECAST FAIL.


Seriously though, you're quoting the weather channel forecast for "Killington Resort", which is really just the same forecast as Killington town down in the valley.  You need to look at the NOAA elevation adjusted forecast (3550ft) which is what I posted.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Well, that's because...............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Just posted above and it changed for the worse.  Don't get me wrong,  I want to ski but it may not be possible to blow long enough to open.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> That is for the resort, which I am assuming is the KBL.


I only use Weather.com for general trends on the 10 day anymore. Otherwise they're terrible, and they go from towns not KBL.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Just posted above and it changed for the worse. Don't get me wrong, I want to ski but it may not be possible to blow long enough to open.


 
You're quoting the 3,400ft forecast and I'm quoting the 3,550 ft forecast.  It hasn't changed much.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You're quoting the 3,400ft forecast and I'm quoting the 3,550 ft forecast. It hasn't changed much.


 

Even the 3550' does not look conducive to making snow at a high yield.  I would love to see them beat A-basin and Loveland though.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Even the 3550' does not look conducive to making snow at a high yield. I would love to see them beat A-basin and Loveland though.


 
Not optimal, but quite close enough to optimal for them to make plenty of snow. They have the tons of compressors and the right guns to make make lots of snow in very marginal temps.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

Supposedly it's snowing at Killington again:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30663&start=15


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Not optimal, but quite close enough to optimal for them to make plenty of snow. They have the tons of compressors and the right guns to make make lots of snow in very marginal temps.


 

I know all of this.  But it is on the hairy edge for a lot of output.  They would be using their full compressor capability to increase the velocity out of the guns to maximize yield.


----------



## skiingsnow (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Supposedly it's snowing at Killington again:
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30663&start=15



I was just up there, yes it is snowing, Temp was 39 degrees at K base, k.com saying it is now 37 degrees at the base...


----------



## Puck it (Oct 21, 2010)

Fingers crossed then


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 21, 2010)

What the over/under bet that this thread goes to 60 pages before Killington opens ?

My guess is 70 pages,  which can easily be exceeded by you guys posting the 7 day forecasts and wet bulb temperature graphs a couple of times a day.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> What the over/under bet that this thread goes to 60 pages before Killington opens ?
> 
> My guess is 70 pages, which can easily be exceeded by you guys posting the 7 day forecasts and wet bulb temperature graphs a couple of times a day.


Well, it's only on page 23 now, so that would be a bit of a stretch in my estimation.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 21, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Well, it's only on page 23 now, so that would be a bit of a stretch in my estimation.



Only page 12 for me...

Yay more posts/page.

-w


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 21, 2010)

I see 46 pages and post count of #454 for this thread


----------



## bvibert (Oct 21, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Only page 12 for me...
> 
> Yay more posts/page.
> 
> -w



I got tired of pointing that out, but since you already mentioned it I'll jump on the bandwagon...

I'd have it set to even more posts per page if I could.


----------



## bvibert (Oct 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> I see 46 pages and post count of #454 for this thread



(you can change the settings to display more than 10 posts per page.  I have mine set to the max of 40 so I don't have to change the page as frequently)


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> What the over/under bet that this thread goes to 60 pages before Killington opens ?
> 
> My guess is 70 pages, which can easily be exceeded by you guys posting the 7 day forecasts and wet bulb temperature graphs a couple of times a day.


 
Well, in this thread is the 6th most viewed and 4th most posted in, in this forum........so I'd say we are doing pretty good.

Killington, are you listening?


----------



## Greg (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Well, that's because...............
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I LOLed...


----------



## WJenness (Oct 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I'd have it set to even more posts per page if I could.



Agreed.

-w


----------



## gmcunni (Oct 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> (you can change the settings to display more than 10 posts per page.  I have mine set to the max of 40 so I don't have to change the page as frequently)



i did not know that.. going to look for the setting now.


----------



## bigbob (Oct 21, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Well, in this thread is the 6th most viewed and 4th most posted in, in this forum........so I'd say we are doing pretty good.
> 
> Killington, are you listening?



 Has SpinmasterK posted on this thread yet?? Tom, Oh Tom, come out, come out wherever you are! Your most loyal customers need some answers. Time to "Tip your hand".


----------



## WakeboardMom (Oct 21, 2010)

bvibert said:


> (you can change the settings to display more than 10 posts per page.  I have mine set to the max of 40 so I don't have to change the page as frequently)



THANK YOU!!!  (I never looked through all the settings.  You just made me very, very happy!!!  : )


----------



## bvibert (Oct 21, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> i did not know that.. going to look for the setting now.





WakeboardMom said:


> THANK YOU!!!  (I never looked through all the settings.  You just made me very, very happy!!!  : )



Well, at least this thread was good for something!


----------



## whitefaceoscar (Oct 22, 2010)

snowing at k now. Big and fat flakes 
http://www.killington.com/winter/multimedia/webcam/mountainview.html


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

Long odds, but my $$$ is on Killington opening tomorrow.   Should hear an announcement between noon and 3pm.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Long odds, but my $$$ is on Killington opening tomorrow.   Should hear an announcement between noon and 3pm.



Hate to say it... but that's likely just wishful thinking...

I hope I'm wrong.

-w


----------



## tjf67 (Oct 22, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Hate to say it... but that's likely just wishful thinking...
> 
> I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> -w




If they are blowing snow I would think they are planning to open.  But then again they did blow snow last week and were not open last weekend.  I


----------



## mondeo (Oct 22, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> If they are blowing snow I would think they are planning to open. But then again they did blow snow last week and were not open last weekend. I


They didn't blow until Monday, which was their first real opportunity of more than a couple hours at once.


----------



## moguler6 (Oct 22, 2010)

The trail report says they are blowing GN, Rime, Reason, and Upper East Fall.  Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

http://www.killington.com/winter/mountain/conditions/trails


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

moguler6 said:


> The trail report says they are blowing GN, Rime, Reason, and Upper East Fall. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.killington.com/winter/mountain/conditions/trails


 






Looks like they have a solid 24 hours of snowmaking left...!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2010)

It appears to be snowing pretty heavy at the peak and even at KBL.  There is pretty good snow down at Bear too, judging by the web cam.

If it's snowing that hard, the wet bulb is more than likely pretty poor for blowing snow. I'd love to know if they were actually blowing right now or not. 

Anybody want to hike up there and report back?   I'd offer but I'm 8 hours away:???:


----------



## mondeo (Oct 22, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It appears to be snowing pretty heavy at the peak and even at KBL. There is pretty good snow down at Bear too, judging by the web cam.
> 
> If it's snowing that hard, the wet bulb is more than likely pretty poor for blowing snow. I'd love to know if they were actually blowing right now or not.
> 
> Anybody want to hike up there and report back?  I'd offer but I'm 8 hours away:???:


Ok, but if it's snowing that hard, do they _need_ to blow snow? You say that like it's a bad thing.


----------



## WJenness (Oct 22, 2010)

Hmm... Look who has been suspiciously quiet, but might be starting to tip their hand...






Game on, folks... Game on...  

-w


----------



## neil (Oct 22, 2010)

haha...I love it!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Hmm... Look who has been suspiciously quiet, but might be starting to tip their hand...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Nice!  Doesn't look like they are making snow right now.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Ok, but if it's snowing that hard, do they _need_ to blow snow? You say that like it's a bad thing.



Yeah I wasn't saying its a bad thing they are getting natiural snow.  Just pointing out that temps could still be marginal for snow making.  Which I guess is moot if they are getting dumped!

I wonder why they haven't thought about fan guns up in the Northridge area?  I know in PA, where I'm at, the temps are always marginal and my local place (ski Roundtop) has gone mostly to Aerco Fan and Techno Alpine fan guns.  They seem to work excellent in marginal snow making temps.  

Kton wouldn't need a ton of  infrastructure for them, as they would really only need to run a power circuit.  Since the fan guns have onboard compressors, they wouldn't even need to turn their big air compressors on up there during early season blowing.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Oct 22, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yeah I wasn't saying its a bad thing they are getting natiural snow.  Just pointing out that temps could still be marginal for snow making.  Which I guess is moot if they are getting dumped!
> 
> I wonder why they haven't thought about fan guns up in the Northridge area?  I know in PA, where I'm at, the temps are always marginal and my local place (ski Roundtop) has gone mostly to Aerco Fan and Techno Alpine fan guns.  They seem to work excellent in marginal snow making temps.
> 
> Kton wouldn't need a ton of  infrastructure for them, as they would really only need to run a power circuit.  Since the fan guns have onboard compressors, they wouldn't even need to turn their big air compressors on up there during early season blowing.



Uh oh......here we go.


----------



## snowmonster (Oct 22, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Hmm... Look who has been suspiciously quiet, but might be starting to tip their hand...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luv it. Radio silence. Like a sneak attack. Like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I wonder why they haven't thought about fan guns up in the Northridge area? I know in PA, where I'm at, the temps are always marginal and my local place (ski Roundtop) has gone mostly to Aerco Fan and Techno Alpine fan guns. They seem to work excellent in marginal snow making temps.
> 
> Kton wouldn't need a ton of infrastructure for them, as they would really only need to run a power circuit. Since the fan guns have onboard compressors, they wouldn't even need to turn their big air compressors on up there during early season blowing.


 
Interesting idea. The whole fan gun thing has been debated endlessly at K-zone. There is power available up there AFAIK. However, the trails are actually fairly narrow compared to the optimal trail width for fans. There can also be serious wind up there, they call it the north ridge area because it's right on the ridge. Killington currently uses traditional K3000 guns and newer ratniks in their early season/marginal temp snowmaking efforts - both these can be run with a huge amount of compressed air allowing for better output than a fan gun at marginal temps, and they can make snow at even higher temps. They are are just very expensive to run due to all the diesel fuel consumed in the compressors. However, they may be running their HKD ranger low-e guns right now, tough to say.

I do agree that fan guns on the peak are seemingly attractive for both early season and resurfacing, but wind and trail size issues are very real. Perhaps they could do an automated system that mixed fan guns and air-water guns......?

They have installed fan guns in base areas and high traffic areas where they think they will make snow regularly throughout the season. We would certainly like it if they installed fan guns on some of the supertrails, and they do produce great quality snow. Even a half dozen large fan guns on double dipper or Devil's fiddle, if run quite often, would greatly improve the snow surface on average.


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## Puck it (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Interesting idea. The whole fan gun thing has been debated endlessly at K-zone. There is power available up there AFAIK. However, the trails are actually fairly narrow compared to the optimal trail width for fans. There can also be serious wind up there, they call it the north ridge area because it's right on the ridge. Killington currently uses traditional K3000 guns and newer ratniks in their early season/marginal temp snowmaking efforts - both these can be run with a huge amount of compressed air allowing for better output than a fan gun at marginal temps, and they can make snow at even higher temps. They are are just very expensive to run due to all the diesel fuel consumed in the compressors. However, they may be running their HKD ranger low-e guns right now, tough to say.
> 
> I do agree that fan guns on the peak are seemingly attractive for both early season and resurfacing, but wind and trail size issues are very real. Perhaps they could do an automated system that mixed fan guns and air-water guns......?
> 
> They have installed fan guns in base areas and high traffic areas where they think they will make snow regularly throughout the season. We would certainly like it if they installed fan guns on some of the supertrails, and they do produce great quality snow. Even a half dozen large fan guns on double dipper or Devil's fiddle, if run quite often, would greatly improve the snow surface on average.


 
Do you have the real HS tied up somewhere?


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 22, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Do you have the real HS tied up somewhere?



Was thinking the same thing. Something ain't right.


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## moguler6 (Oct 22, 2010)

They still have snow from last weeks storm, it's snowing, they have a 24 hr blowing window, the trail report says they are blowing, the walk way is done, and Sunday River did some blowing of their own.  Killington has to be planning to open?!


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## WJenness (Oct 22, 2010)

moguler6 said:


> They still have snow from last weeks storm, it's snowing, they have a 24 hr blowing window, the trail report says they are blowing, the walk way is done, and Sunday River did some blowing of their own.  Killington has to be planning to open?!



We were all convinced of a K early open last year too...

I'll believe it when they start loading the K-1...

-w


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Interesting idea. The whole fan gun thing has been debated endlessly at K-zone. There is power available up there AFAIK. However, the trails are actually fairly narrow compared to the optimal trail width for fans. There can also be serious wind up there, they call it the north ridge area because it's right on the ridge. Killington currently uses traditional K3000 guns and newer ratniks in their early season/marginal temp snowmaking efforts - both these can be run with a huge amount of compressed air allowing for better output than a fan gun at marginal temps, and they can make snow at even higher temps. They are are just very expensive to run due to all the diesel fuel consumed in the compressors. However, they may be running their HKD ranger low-e guns right now, tough to say.
> 
> I do agree that fan guns on the peak are seemingly attractive for both early season and resurfacing, but wind and trail size issues are very real. Perhaps they could do an automated system that mixed fan guns and air-water guns......?
> 
> They have installed fan guns in base areas and high traffic areas where they think they will make snow regularly throughout the season. We would certainly like it if they installed fan guns on some of the supertrails, and they do produce great quality snow. Even a half dozen large fan guns on double dipper or Devil's fiddle, if run quite often, would greatly improve the snow surface on average.



I'm not even thinking permanent fan guns.  They could use "mobile" units and put them directly in the middle of the slope while they are bas building.  This is the approach A-basin and Loveland use.  

I know wind is an issue up there as it's ALWAYS windy in North Ridge, but there is good tree cover too, since it's all evergreens. 

The trails in PA are not any wider or maybe even narrower than Rime, Reason, East Fall, etc. and they use fan guns.


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not even thinking permanent fan guns. They could use "mobile" units and put them directly in the middle of the slope while they are bas building. This is the approach A-basin and Loveland use.
> 
> I know wind is an issue up there as it's ALWAYS windy in North Ridge, but there is good tree cover too, since it's all evergreens.
> 
> The trails in PA are not any wider or maybe even narrower than Rime, Reason, East Fall, etc. and they use fan guns.


 
Fair enough, than you for your insight!


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## tjf67 (Oct 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> They didn't blow until Monday, which was their first real opportunity of more than a couple hours at once.




They blew snow on Monday and at that point the storm model was showing rain.  That I dont get.   There were other nights where those guns could have been on most of the night. Why blow at all unless you are going to go all out to open.    Hopefully they realized they F'ed up last week and are going to make it happen for today.  If they don't open this weekend they wont be able to open next.


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## moguler6 (Oct 22, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> They blew snow on Monday and at that point the storm model was showing rain.  That I dont get.   There were other nights where those guns could have been on most of the night. Why blow at all unless you are going to go all out to open.    Hopefully they realized they F'ed up last week and are going to make it happen for today.  If they don't open this weekend they wont be able to open next.



I could be mistaken, but Mondays blow was nothing more than a system test.  Just like the one Sunday River did back on Oct 10th.


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## moguler6 (Oct 22, 2010)

Clouds lifted, it looks like they are indeed blowing on the mountain view cam.

http://www.killington.com/winter/multimedia/webcam/mountainview.html


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## skiingsnow (Oct 22, 2010)

moguler6 said:


> I could be mistaken, but Mondays blow was nothing more than a system test.  Just like the one Sunday River did back on Oct 10th.



Negative, it was for base building.


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## Bostonian (Oct 22, 2010)

"However, as much as we would like to spin the K-1 Gondola and North Ridge Triple and get our guests on the hill this weekend, we have several sections on the mountain that require additional snow to open than what the current snowmaking production window provides. But rest assured, our snowmaking and grooming teams are making every effort to get us all on the mountain as soon as they can. " - From the Killington Website.


 BOOOOOOOO!


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## Riverskier (Oct 22, 2010)

Is anyone surprised? Not me, seems like par for the course...


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## KingM (Oct 22, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Negative, it was for base building.



How do you build base in the middle of October? Most of the snow they blow in November melts off, sometimes completely, depending on the year. Barring a miracle, you're going to see a couple more weeks of up and down temps. Blowing right now is just PR.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2010)

I take that as more snow melted from last week than any of us thought it would at that elevation.


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## Sotto (Oct 22, 2010)

from killingtons facebbbook page "All of us here at Killington Resort are very excited to get you (and us!) out on the mountain as soon as possible! However, as much as we'd like to open this weekend, we still need to produce more snow than the current snowmaking production window provides. Please, THNIK COLD and THINK SNOW!"


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

Yeah.....this is lame. Just when you think they were going to turn a corner on their attitude and public perception, make up for closing early last season..........another let down.  You have to wonder if they actually don't have enough snow, or if they are sandbagging us and just aren't ready for various BS reason.  Or they didn't go all out with the snowmaking.  Whack.

I'm quite curious about how much snow is up there. I may take a hike and get some detailed pics in the AM.


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## o3jeff (Oct 22, 2010)

fail


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> fail


 
lol.

*Killington = EPIC FAIL!!!!!*


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## gmcunni (Oct 22, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> fail



epic



oh wait, this isn't the word association thread....


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

Weather doesn't look good for next weekend either, we might not be skiing until Thanksgiving.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> lol.
> 
> *Killington = EPIC FAIL!!!!!*




an alpinezone tradition that the season is just around the corner


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## WWF-VT (Oct 22, 2010)

How can you call Killington=EPIC FAIL !!! when 90% of the people following this thread assumed that conditions were marginal to even attempt to open this weekend


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> How can you call Killington=EPIC FAIL !!! when 90% of the people following this thread assumed that conditions were marginal to even attempt to open this weekend



because marginally used to mean opening back in the day at the Beast.  White dirt conditions


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> How can you call Killington=EPIC FAIL !!! when 90% of the people following this thread assumed that conditions were marginal to even attempt to open this weekend


 
There's certainly enough snow up there to open, by any reasonable advanced skier's standards.


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> because marginally used to mean opening back in the day at the Beast. White dirt conditions


 
I remember skiing off the double in the mid-90's, early october.  Was about 1-2 feet of nice soft snow, that quickly turned into bumps with dirt in between them. We still got it done...........


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

Hey, well, at least we passed 500 posts and 20,000 views in this thread.............that's pretty good!

I wonder when Sunday river is going to open and if they will beat us.  Yet again.


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## Puck it (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Hey, well, at least we passed 500 posts and 20,000 views in this thread.............that's pretty good!
> 
> I wonder when Sunday river is going to open and if they will beat us. Yet again.


 

Tell the person thank you for loosening the ropes!!!!!


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## Newpylong (Oct 22, 2010)

I was looking forward to a K first opening but I can see SR getting it done tomorrow afternoon or Sunday. Killington's idea of acceptable opening conditions needs to be reconsidered... there is plenty of snow up there now.


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Hey, well, at least we passed 500 posts and 20,000 views in this thread.............that's pretty good!
> 
> *I wonder when Sunday river is going to open and if they will beat us*.  Yet again.



us ?


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> I was looking forward to a K first opening but I can see SR getting it done tomorrow afternoon or Sunday. Killington's idea of acceptable opening conditions needs to be reconsidered... there is plenty of snow up there now.


 
As I said over on K-zone, this is a real issue of attitude and perception on their part. People who are willing to walk up a pretty long staircase in ski boots aren't at all concerned with a couple bare spots.

What realy looks bad, is if SR opens this weekend, and if Killington doesn't open next weekend.....then that's being beaten by at least 2 weeks, which is just embarassing.


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## sLoPeS (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> As I said over on K-zone, this is a real issue of attitude and perception on their part. People who are willing to walk up a pretty long staircase in ski boots aren't at all concerned with a couple bare spots.
> 
> What realy looks bad, is if SR opens this weekend, and if Killington doesn't open next weekend.....then that's being beaten by at least 2 weeks, which is just embarassing.



how is sunday river looking in terms of snow?  they started again last night?  still going?  i cant imagine they have that much.


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> how is sunday river looking in terms of snow? they started again last night? still going? i cant imagine they have that much.


 
I have no idea and it looked like they didn't have the weather to make snow during the day today.  But the T2 loop is very very short, and they might be willing to open on thin cover, so who knows....?


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## neil (Oct 22, 2010)

The big advantage for Sunday River is that they don't have a problem being bold and opening with thinner coverage. I could totally see SR beating Killington now....if they do Killington should be totally embarrassed with themselves.


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## whitemtn27 (Oct 22, 2010)

Looks like K is blowing now, from the mountain view cam at least.

Maybe they are just trying to lower expectations for the surface quality this weekend


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## jerryg (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I have no idea and it looked like they didn't have the weather to make snow during the day today.  But the T2 loop is very very short, and they might be willing to open on thin cover, so who knows....?




The T2 loop is short, but vert is around the same as Glades Triple. The advantage is that the trail starts and connects to the lift without a connector trail. They were making snow on both T2 ans Upper Punch into the day, but not now. No one knows if last night was the first night because the cams were off, the mountain wasn't talking, and you have to be a little ways from the mountain to see that area. My guess is that there isn't much of base and not enough to open, but who knows for sure?


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## Riverskier (Oct 22, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> how is sunday river looking in terms of snow?  they started again last night?  still going?  i cant imagine they have that much.



Sunday River started last night and are still going. This is evident by looking at webcams, but the mountain has yet to even announce they are making snow, let alone when they might open. They can easily open with 36 hours of prime snow making. They will get the 36 hours, but I have no idea what the snow making conditions are like, or whether they are even trying to open for the weekend. One would think they are at least trying though, as whatever they make will likely melt next week, so if not, what is the point?


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## mondeo (Oct 22, 2010)

neil said:


> The big advantage for Sunday River is that they don't have a problem being bold and opening with thinner coverage. I could totally see SR beating Killington now....if they do Killington should be totally embarrassed with themselves.


I think people are underestimating the advantage Killington has on SR. 5 degrees means a lot in this situation. It's a longer window and more productive, and they're working with an existing base. My guess is SR is taking a shot of having some good luck, which it looks like they might get Saturday night. Not opening tomorrow though.

But I'd bet they'd be open tomorrow if they had as much snow as Killington has now. It can't be any worse than what they close with, even last year.


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## Black Phantom (Oct 22, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> us ?


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## WJenness (Oct 22, 2010)

SUNDAY RIVER WINS!

http://sundayriver.com/TheMountain/MountainReport/index.html

-W


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2010)

The die is cast.  



wjenness said:


> sr is open!
> 
> www.facebook.com/sundayriver
> 
> -w


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## Smellytele (Oct 22, 2010)

Poor Highway Star

Killington=Fail


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## mondeo (Oct 22, 2010)

WJenness said:


> SUNDAY RIVER WINS!
> 
> http://sundayriver.com/TheMountain/MountainReport/index.html
> 
> -W


 Pathetic. (Not on SR's part.)

Killington had a better shot this the entire way through. Snow from last weekend, better snowmaking conditions, etc. But no, they can't have a patch of dirt showing on opening day.


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2010)

..................wait for it.................































































*KILLINGTON = SUPER EPIC MEGA FAIL.*


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## mondeo (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> ..................wait for it.................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I CQTM'd.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2010)

> All of us here at Killington Resort are very excited to get skiers and riders out on the mountain as soon as possible! Our preparations are well underway for opening as early as possible, and we are well prepared and ready to open as soon as weather and snow conditions permit!
> 
> However, as much as we would like to spin the K-1 Gondola and North Ridge Triple and get our guests on the hill this weekend, we have several sections on the mountain that require additional snow to open than what the current snowmaking production window provides. But rest assured, our snowmaking and grooming teams are making every effort to get us all on the mountain as soon as they can.
> 
> As snowmaking production continues, we ask skiers and riders to respect the efforts and work area of our mountain operations team as they prepare the slopes for all of us. Please check back often for updates on snowmaking progress and opening day status, and as always, THINK SNOW!


 
Hmmm....


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## bvibert (Oct 22, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> *KILLINGTON = SUPER EPIC MEGA FAIL.*



There's the Highway Star we all know.

Sure seems like Killington had a golden opportunity that they blew (or didn't blow as the case may be)...


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## Terry (Oct 22, 2010)

Looks like I will be skiing this weekend!!!!!!


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## snowmonster (Oct 22, 2010)

See you at Barker, Terry!


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## Puck it (Oct 22, 2010)

Wow!!!


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## o3jeff (Oct 22, 2010)




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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Pathetic. (Not on SR's part.)
> 
> Killington had a better shot this the entire way through. Snow from last weekend, better snowmaking conditions, etc. But no, they can't have a patch of dirt showing on opening day.



guess an early opening matters, but not 1st to open.

Pressure has already begun for them to deliver on the other end of the season......


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## Terry (Oct 22, 2010)

Looks like sunday is the day for me. Tomorrow I have to finish the kitchen project, winterize the house, do leave cleanup and do all the other projects that I need to do before ski season. Should be able to do it all tomorrow so I will see everyone at the River on Sunday!  If it don't get done tomorrow, it will wait till next summer!


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## bigbob (Oct 22, 2010)

I wonder if Tom can put the cost of Darcy's Vermont beer on his expense account??? Spin, are you around? Have anything to say? Speechless I assume:wink:


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## neil (Oct 22, 2010)

This is totally embarrassing for Killington IMO


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## Mildcat (Oct 22, 2010)




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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 22, 2010)

I don't know how Killington can't be open, but SR can.  That is why I think K will spin the lifts tomorrow.

Temps = K
Elevation = K
12-18 inches of good base building natural snow = K

Hmmmm, you got me.


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## moguler6 (Oct 22, 2010)

According to the trail report, Killington turned the guns OFF.  Gesh, what is their problem!  Run the lifts!


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## riverc0il (Oct 22, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I don't know how Killington can't be open, but SR can.  That is why I think K will spin the lifts tomorrow.
> 
> Temps = K
> Elevation = K
> ...


AND they packed all the snow they got down in the North Ridge area. They already HAVE the base. They just needed to blow the same 19 hours that SR did (in addition to what they claimed to have done earlier this week already) and they would have had a 2' base minimum with no obstructions, water bars, rocks, etc. Could have easily been one of the best mid-October lift serviced products ever offered in New England.

One thing I can understand is that if SR is opening and they just blew the snow in the past 24 hours, the skiing will be on whales. Whales traditionally need to sit and drain before being flattened. I can't imagine SR would have blown and groomed it out all prior to opening. K had their chance though regardless. Really mind boggling that they would not take advantage, SR clearly shows that it was doable. Even without a foot of packed down base.


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## millerm277 (Oct 22, 2010)

I have a suspicion that they haven't opened due to needing to fix the ground on the upper section of East Glade from whatever they were digging up there.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 22, 2010)

Enjoy those turns this weekend!  Take pics!


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## AndyEich (Oct 23, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> ...One thing I can understand is that if SR is opening and they just blew the snow in the past 24 hours, the skiing will be on whales. Whales traditionally need to sit and drain before being flattened. I can't imagine SR would have blown and groomed it out all prior to opening...



I haven't been up yet to see if it's the case right now, but I'd think if you have guns every 15' like they do on T2, it's possible to avoid making whales.
________
Park Royal 2 Condo Pattaya


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## riverc0il (Oct 23, 2010)

SR did groom a two groomer wide strip down the center of T2 but did not level the snow. Worked out perfectly. Hard to tell it had been groomed by late morning. Just shows even more that K didn't need to wait if they had any ambition.


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## tjf67 (Oct 23, 2010)

AndyEich said:


> I haven't been up yet to see if it's the case right now, but I'd think if you have guns every 15' like they do on T2, it's possible to avoid making whales.




Or if you go out every few hours and move the guns around.  I would get my ass chewed if my boss came in the next morning and there were whales on the trails we were blowing.  Not certain but now I think they leave whales for a reason.


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## AdironRider (Oct 23, 2010)

To be fair, just to be able to ski to the North Ridge area from the gondi probably takes more snow than what SR blew to open yesterday, let alone the rest of the area they need to blow to get open, even with the walkway. 

Im not going to rag on Killington if they open up with more than just 1 trail which is only open halfway. 

K at least gives you some form of pod, aka variety with their openings. That is pretty nice.


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## jerryg (Oct 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> To be fair, just to be able to ski to the North Ridge area from the gondi probably takes more snow than what SR blew to open yesterday, let alone the rest of the area they need to blow to get open, even with the walkway.
> 
> Im not going to rag on Killington if they open up with more than just 1 trail which is only open halfway.
> 
> K at least gives you some form of pod, aka variety with their openings. That is pretty nice.



T2 is not half a trail anmore than Rime or Reason. The bottom line isn't that Killington wouldn't with one trail, for variety purposes, but rather, they have to open more one because a lot more skiers need to be serviced. If K had the same amount if skiers on an opening day, it may be different, but because it's close to more population, a lot more people show up.
SR likely could have blown enough to get Upper Punch open as well, but in Late October, the priority isn't getting open to offer something, make their base happy, get good PR, and sell vacations based on people seeing their committment. 
I'm not ragging on K whatsoever, but with the opportunities they had and with the new snow they got, they should have been able to open and they didn't. Maybe they never intended too, and that's fine if that's their operational plan. I don't recall K saying they wanted to be the first to open.


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## ski_resort_observer (Oct 23, 2010)

jerryg said:


> . I don't recall K saying they wanted to be the first to open.



Nope, just the OP said it and I'll just leave it at that.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> To be fair, just to be able to ski to the North Ridge area from the gondi probably takes more snow than what SR blew to open yesterday, let alone the rest of the area they need to blow to get open, even with the walkway.
> 
> Im not going to rag on Killington if they open up with more than just 1 trail which is only open halfway.
> 
> K at least gives you some form of pod, aka variety with their openings. That is pretty nice.


 
If Pres Smith was still running Killington he would not be making excuses like that.  He'd just be getting the place open.


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## SpinmasterK (Oct 23, 2010)

bigbob said:


> I wonder if Tom can put the cost of Darcy's Vermont beer on his expense account??? Spin, are you around? Have anything to say? Speechless I assume:wink:




A full case of Long Trail comes out of my pocket!

BTW - I'm never speechless. Just don't get me started   Oh, I just got started Big Bob!
Could we have opened today? That will always be the big question for the armchair quarterbacks. But at the end of the day, we have a Director of Mountain Operations and a solid team of Mountain Ops folks with a hell of a lot more experience that I do and I trust their judgement! They have been around since the Pres Smith days and have seen it all! 
I grew up skiing at Loveland and Arapahoe Basin and like a lot of you I am always chomping at the bit to get on my boards. Like both of those areas, Killington will open when we have a sustainable, quality product with a base that will provide a great experience for our guest that we can groom and maintain.
Am I happy to send a full case of Long Trail beer to Darcy? Not really, because I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening! Sunday River may be first to open, but I hope they won't be first to close as we need to keep the east coast momentum going!  But at the end of the day, a bet is a bet and I will offer a big congrats to SR and send a case of fine beer their way!
In the meantime, the ski season is here and I raise a glass and salute all who made turns at SR and those hardcore ones who earned their turns at Killington today.
Cheers to a great season! :beer:


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## SLyardsale (Oct 23, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> A full case of Long Trail comes out of my pocket!
> 
> BTW - I'm never speechless. Just don't get me started   Oh, I just got started Big Bob!
> Could we have opened today? That will always be the big question for the armchair quarterbacks. But at the end of the day, we have a Director of Mountain Operations and a solid team of Mountain Ops folks with a hell of a lot more experience that I do and I trust their judgement! They have been around since the Pres Smith days and have seen it all!
> ...



I have no problem with early season decisions like this.  Where you really screwed your cust base was last spring.  Glad I'm a Sugarloafer since 1983.


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## jerryg (Oct 23, 2010)

I sense some sour grapes. If you want to take a shot at SR for the conditions they opened on, perhaps it would be best to have skied them firsthand. While it sounds as though K has more cover, people have posted that the conditions were pretty good for an October opening. Wouldn't it be better to just say that you lost the bet and you don't like it? I mean saying you don't think it counts, but then saying a bet's a bet, is a little contradictary. 
Yes, SR will close midweek with upcoming weather and likely to preserve snow. They did the same thing last year in October, buy once they claimed to be open fir the season, in November, they stayed open. The same can't be said for other mountains in the east.


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## AndyEich (Oct 24, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> ... I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening!...



Let's wait and see how many people post "I skied it and had a bad time--wish SR had not opened till later".  I'm gonna bet on zero.

Weak.
________
Glass Bong


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)

I concur with the others suggesting that the above concession on sending the case of beer reads like sour grapes over SR's opening. I skied it. It was quality in my opinion. Much better than any WROD I have ever skied at K during their early season. I think it is pretty cool that SR will open a variable condition trail like that. It was quite fun having something interesting to ski rather than a groomed flat Rime and Reason for twice as much money. 

Would have been quite cool if SpinmasterK simply said "props to SR, we got beat, here's your case o' beer". But that knock against the quality of SR's product was entirely off base. And inaccurate, at least based on how I define quality...


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 24, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> A full case of Long Trail comes out of my pocket!
> 
> BTW - I'm never speechless. Just don't get me started   Oh, I just got started Big Bob!
> Could we have opened today? That will always be the big question for the armchair quarterbacks. But at the end of the day, we have a Director of Mountain Operations and a solid team of Mountain Ops folks with a hell of a lot more experience that I do and I trust their judgement! They have been around since the Pres Smith days and have seen it all!
> ...



I am heading to Maine to see my folks and will pass by Sunday River, so if you need the beer to be dropped off I would be more than happy to do that.......I just can't promise the case will show up in full.  :wink:


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## sLoPeS (Oct 24, 2010)

edit.


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## skiingsnow (Oct 24, 2010)

sLoPeS said:


> that was a deep 8" base then, i don't think i hit one rock yesterday there.
> 
> they'll close midweek, they TOLD US THAT, they also said they are trying to open next weekend too.  they actually communicate with their customers.



Yesterday was not opening day. You are talking 18+ hours of snowmaking from after they opened to the time that they opened once again the following day, yesterday.

Sunday River had everyone totally in the dark for quite some time, no communication at all. No cams, didn't say anything when snowmaking got underway Thursday evening, didn't say anything Friday about snowmaking being underway, and didn't announce an opening prior to opening. They announced that they were open after they had already been open a while.  

Killington told us when the guns got turned on early Monday morning, they told us when the guns got turned on again, they told us in advance they needed 72 hours of snowmaking to open, they told us "Our goal for kicking off the season remains the same: We are committed to open as early as possible for our guests with a sustainable quality product. “It is important for us to be open as early as reasonably possible, as it is a critical element in our overall operating plan,”  Temple says. A quality product is defined as one that allows for snowmaking mounds to “dry and cure” for a period of time before grooming and opening."

All week long, before they got this day and a half window of snowmaking, they have communicated on Facebook, Twitter and it was posted on Kzone that they were NOT PLANNING TO OPEN this weekend, as they already knew they weren't going to be able to run a sustainable operation.

They have communicated several other times throughout the summer and fall that they were going to open when they could get open and stay open, ect...


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## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2010)

Petition to ban the spinster for bringing the sour grapes


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## sLoPeS (Oct 24, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Yesterday was not opening day. You are talking 18+ hours of snowmaking from after they opened to the time that they opened once again the following day, yesterday.
> 
> Sunday River had everyone totally in the dark for quite some time, no communication at all. No cams, didn't say anything when snowmaking got underway Thursday evening, didn't say anything Friday about snowmaking being underway, and didn't announce an opening prior to opening. They announced that they were open after they had already been open a while.
> 
> ...



uke:


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## sLoPeS (Oct 24, 2010)

I'll follow up with some positive feedback for SpinmasterK...

i know there is the insider, but take a look at what Loveland and A-Basin do with their early season "blogs".

http://www.skiloveland.com/snowmaking/


http://arapahoebasin.blogspot.com/

these are updated almost daily, have multiple pictures, and give you a much better idea of whats happening on the mountain.


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## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Yesterday was not opening day. You are talking 18+ hours of snowmaking from after they opened to the time that they opened once again the following day, yesterday.
> 
> Sunday River had everyone totally in the dark for quite some time, no communication at all. No cams, didn't say anything when snowmaking got underway Thursday evening, didn't say anything Friday about snowmaking being underway, and didn't announce an opening prior to opening. They announced that they were open after they had already been open a while.



If it wasn't opening day then what was it. Friday you can say wasn't opening day but why not Saturday. 

As far as communication I ain't a chick just tell me in simple terms - open - not open. I don't need 10 weeks of conversation telling me your excuses and how you are painting your nails.


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## gmcunni (Oct 24, 2010)

http://www.snocountry.com/index.php/ski-reports-by-region/northeast-snow-conditions


Sunday River - OPEN

everybody else - NOT OPEN


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## skiingsnow (Oct 24, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> If it wasn't opening day then what was it. Friday you can say wasn't opening day but why not Saturday.



Friday was opening day, saturday was day 2.

!!!


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## tjf67 (Oct 24, 2010)

In my little head I think K gets bashed to much but they bring a lot of it on themselves.  

Wouldn't it have been cool for k to come out say.  hey folks we are not completely ready.  We know you season passholders are chomping at the bit so tell you what.  We wont open to the general public but Sat we will spin the lift for you folks for 5 hours so come on up and see how we are doing.  Think that might have made passholders happy?   I bet it would and probably sold a couple more if they let people know they could buy them if they came up


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## drjeff (Oct 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> In my little head I think K gets bashed to much but they bring a lot of it on themselves.
> 
> Wouldn't it have been cool for k to come out say.  hey folks we are not completely ready.  We know you season passholders are chomping at the bit so tell you what.  We wont open to the general public but Sat we will spin the lift for you folks for 5 hours so come on up and see how we are doing.  Think that might have made passholders happy?   I bet it would and probably sold a couple more if they let people know they could buy them if they came up



Playing the roll of "arm chair ski area GM" for a moment.  That scenario, while maybe some good PR towards a group of folks for whom you've already GOT their $$ for this coming season, won't cost the mountain any less in operational personel, then if they opened it up to the general public and charged some $$ for tickets(a group of folks for whom they DON'T have their $$ locked up for the season)

The big issue, and one that's often tough for many to comprehend, is that one does need to seperate emotion from logic when looking at this.  And of course the emotional repsonse is to open up the 1st second the guns have deposited a light layer of frost on the ground, whereas the logical response looks at costs, product, etc.  Those are the 2 extremes, and in reality most areas will operate somewhere inbetween those 2 extremes.  How close to one extreme or the other an area chooses to operate is what often seperates them from being "heroes" in our eyes and from being a$$'s in our eyes!


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## daytripper (Oct 24, 2010)

Never posted here before,but this has led me to make my first.  Just have to give my opinion which is that the beast of the east (are they still calling themselves that this year) did not open with all that snow, and the stairway is pathetic.  I ski there every year and stay at a share house on the access rd.  I have been skiing in much worse conditions then what they could have offered higher up and always did it with a big smile on my face.  While this isnt as bad as the closing fiasco last year,  why not try and make the killington faithful happy and open for the weekend?  Then I would be on the mountain right now smiling and then having beers at bay 1 saying how powder finally did it right, but instead I am home typing this and almost out of faith with powder.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2010)

daytripper said:


> Never posted here before,but this has led me to make my first. Just have to give my opinion which is that the beast of the east (are they still calling themselves that this year) did not open with all that snow, and the stairway is pathetic. I ski there every year and stay at a share house on the access rd. I have been skiing in much worse conditions then what they could have offered higher up and always did it with a big smile on my face. While this isnt as bad as the closing fiasco last year, why not try and make the killington faithful happy and open for the weekend? Then I would be on the mountain right now smiling and then having beers at bay 1 saying how powder finally did it right, but instead I am home typing this and almost out of faith with powder.


 
Welcome to the boards and sorry that this topic got the first post. I hope that you stick around here because we have folks that ski at many different areas and can give you some information on other places to try.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The big issue, and one that's often tough for many to comprehend, is that one does need to seperate emotion from logic when looking at this.  And of course the emotional repsonse is to open up the 1st second the guns have deposited a light layer of frost on the ground, whereas the logical response looks at costs, product, etc.  Those are the 2 extremes, and in reality most areas will operate somewhere inbetween those 2 extremes.  How close to one extreme or the other an area chooses to operate is what often seperates them from being "heroes" in our eyes and from being a$$'s in our eyes!



Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.

In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree.  Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand.  For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East.  They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar.  It worked!!  For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington.   Now?  The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.  

I don't care how well you mange flow through, there is no way you can convince me that the current K model generating 650K skier visits is as profitable as when they were doing a million plus.

Not opening this weekend is just as bad for their brand as the horse shit closing decision last year.   They've forgetten the single most important concept in managing a business.  You deposit dollars in the bank, not percentages.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.
> 
> In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree. Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand. For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East. They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar. It worked!! For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington. Now? The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with DHS. 

When you look at the history of the Killington brand, you see that Pres Smith was very innovative and decided from the first day that the "product" was skiing. When you had more product, you made more money. They were one of the first big mountains to install snowmaking. Why? Not because they needed it, but because it allowed them to open earlier and stay open later. Pres explained, I believe, in Karen Lorentz's book that when you extend the season on both ends, you extend the length of your "prime season" in the middle. You also earn a reputation that brings people to the middle of the ski season. 

How does this work? Nearly every season Killington was the first to open for many years if not decades. Almost every east coast news outlet picked up on the story and would put it on the air. Killington open in October? Skiing in October? Skiing in June? Then they must have snow. 

Now when it came time for people to book their ski vacations in the middle of the winter, they'd ask themselves, "who will definitely have snow?" And images of people skiing in October and June at Killington came into their heads and they would book at Killington. They would pay a premium as well because they knew that Killington would have snow and the best conditions...or so they thought. 

It WORKED. The long season was essential to the brand in the 1960's-early 2000's. Of course what happened after Pres left was the "product" became more the lodging and real estate, which was something that Pres has admitted he was not good at. He was good at the ski business. This is part of the reason why there is no "Village" because of his focus on skiing. He attempted to have other people at SKI do the real estate work and they ran into challenges and delays. All the meantime Pres was installing new lifts, new trails, and working on the skiing. 

I blame ASC for beginning the end of Killington. When they installed the gondola, they pretty much killed the feasibility of early season skiing. They knew that. But they were marketing Killington as not just skiing. 

Enter POWDR. They are trying a different strategy.  It is what it is.


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)

DHS is spot on here. What else can K build their brand around? What else can they offer? The Access Road? High trail count alone won't do it. K needs to fill all of those trails with guests and they need an identify to not only get guests there, but keep them coming back. Be they day skiers, pass holders, or real estate owners. You don't get attached to a mountain because of the trail alone. You get attached to mountains because of the intangibles. How the place makes you feel. How you feel about the place, etc. You get attached to certain mountains because of identity. Something K lacks right now in a major way.


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I blame ASC for beginning the end of Killington. When they installed the gondola, they pretty much killed the feasibility of early season skiing. They knew that. But they were marketing Killington as not just skiing.


The new cat walk to North Ridge eliminates the gondola problem so K now has no excuse. At least no legitimate excuse... 

I think we can all agree that if a business does not want to be an early season player, that is fine. No one is going to knock Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, etc. for not trying to open sooner. But when you build a cat walk and blow snow following over a foot of snow and don't open.... well, that is just really confusing because I think we can all agree that K had plenty of opportunity to make a product that ANY ONE willing to ski in October would have been more than satisfied with.


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## drjeff (Oct 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.
> 
> In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree.  Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand.  For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East.  They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar.  It worked!!  For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington.   Now?  The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.
> 
> ...



The thing that is tough for so many to accept (me included and I first skied K in the winter of '82-'83 and have skied there over the years from late Oct through early June at one point or another) is that FWIW, Powdr has decided that "their" vision of the K brand is only going to be X% (insert whatever number you want) of what the "old" K brand was.  If they felt that "their" brand of K wan't financially viable, you'd more than likely see them either selling ASAP or reverting back to the "old" Pres Smith era brand.  I'm not saying that I agree with their descision (and frankly I don't because the ski addict in me realizes that a K that opens real early and stays open real late pushes their competitors to extend their seasons), but like I said earlier, sometimes in business one has to consider more the logical side of their brains than the emotional side.  

That being said, did they dissapoint some folks this weekend, no doubt about it.  But the reality is, that most of the folks that would have been riding the lifts at K this weekend would have been season passholders (K already has their $$ locked up, and most K season passholders seem to keep buying K season passes in subsequent years for various reasons) or some hardcore skiers/riders for whom K to them is just an option to start their season a few weeks earlier and possibly extend their season a few weeks later in the spring(if they're not hiking for turns someplace else), but for the majority of those potential ticket buyers this weekend, K just isn't "hardcore" enough for them mid-season.  Lastly, the product that K is offering for the vast majority of their season, seems to keep the vast majority of the K regulars happy (better snow surfaces, less crowding, better infastructure).  

So if they're turning a profit, the reality is that the negative press that hey may be getting now really only afffects such a small percentage of their bottomline, that they're willing to deal with it.  And I think that most of us can agree on one thing, the longterm K "addict" is basically a different breed than almost any other type of ski area fan out there


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## Johnskiismore (Oct 24, 2010)

I think the last four posts are dead on!


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## AdironRider (Oct 24, 2010)

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this. 

I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable. 

If Killington is going to open with an entire trail pod, and not just 1/2 of 1 trail like SR, then stay open continuously, then people should be very happy. That is an opening. Sunday River is letting people get some yes, but I dont think its exactly comparing apples to apples here. 

Just getting snow down onto Great Northern to the North Ridge area, as I mentioned before, probably takes more alone than SR had to blow on T2 to get open, then add the remaining North Ridge trails, and yeah, theyre going to need some more time and more snow than they got. I dont know of many ski areas that can open with just a foot of natural on bare ground. 

If they had opened with just Great Northern or some variation just to the catwalk everyone would have been just as pissed. And if K opens in a week and stays open till late April or May, they would smoke SR in terms of total days open if you ask me.


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## Bostonian (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.
> 
> I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.
> 
> ...



Except Sunday River is now open with two trails.  Having two now operating, does that consist of a pod?  With T2 and Upper Sunday Punch... I would venture to say that it does.  while I wasn't able to get up to the River today, I do think that their early opening does make perfect business sense.  By getting it out there, that they are the first to open (albeit weekends) and to provide a product for people to use, it gets many people in the mood for skiing.  An example is at work, my co-workers, who ski maybe 2 times a year, were impressed and already thinking of booking trips.  I suggested Sunday River, based on their customer service image that have put out.  That of being ready to go out above and beyond to get skiers and riders on the snow as early as possible with a good product.


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.


Telling me to relax implies I was worked up.:roll: This is nothing more than a discussion. I doubt my definition of quality is much different than any one else that would be willing to ski in October. That said, here is the quality I saw yesterday at SR: no rocks, no base damage, ample coverage, bumps and varying terrain features, etc. It isn't like SR opened up with rocks poking through the snow and folks are damaging their skis. No need for rock skis this weekend. That is quality. Was it groomed wall to wall flat as a pancake quality? No. As I suggested in my earlier post, I don't think most folks looking to ski in October require that type of quality...


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## AdironRider (Oct 24, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> The new cat walk to North Ridge eliminates the gondola problem so K now has no excuse. At least no legitimate excuse...
> 
> I think we can all agree that if a business does not want to be an early season player, that is fine. No one is going to knock Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, etc. for not trying to open sooner. But when you build a cat walk and blow snow following over a foot of snow and don't open.... well, that is just really confusing because I think we can all agree that K had plenty of opportunity to make a product that ANY ONE willing to ski in October would have been more than satisfied with.



Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up. 

And Id beg to differ that everyone skiing in October is looking for exactly the same thing you are, but thats an argument noone can prove. 

But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...just like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Were talking about an October 22nd opening date on the East Coast here, I dont think anyone commited a crime by not opening.


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## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up.
> 
> And Id beg to differ that everyone skiing in October is looking for exactly the same thing you are, but thats an argument noone can prove.
> 
> But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...just like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Were talking about an October 22nd opening date on the East Coast here, I dont think anyone commited a crime by not opening.



Then why did they blow any snow?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...



more like, why did we even bother making snow.  had they opened this weekend, they'd at least get a marketing return.  blowing snow for nothing, you get nothing


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## roark (Oct 24, 2010)

drjeff said:


> That being said, did they dissapoint some folks this weekend, no doubt about it.  But the reality is, that most of the folks that would have been riding the lifts at K this weekend would have been season passholders (K already has their $$ locked up, and most K season passholders seem to keep buying K season passes in subsequent years for various reasons) or some hardcore skiers/riders for whom K to them is just an option to start their season a few weeks earlier and possibly extend their season a few weeks later in the spring(if they're not hiking for turns someplace else), but for the majority of those potential ticket buyers this weekend, K just isn't "hardcore" enough for them mid-season.


But they miss out on a large # of potential passholders by not differentiating their brand from every other mountain. If K offered early/late skiing, I'd still be a passholder there. You're right, I hardly ever went mid-season when better options are available.

Now I simply don't go to K at all.


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## AdironRider (Oct 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> more like, why did we even bother making snow.  had they opened this weekend, they'd at least get a marketing return.  blowing snow for nothing, you get nothing



Cause everything they blew would have gone to shit by the end of the weekend, then they have inferior product that still needs to make it a month till its consistently cold. 

They can blow snow and set a base, then add to it when temps allow. Ski it all off and you''re doing damage. Jackson Hole does this every year as well, but hides behind their "permit" limitations so they dont have to keep blowing snow for two straight months just to maintain a few trails on AV. This way they spend about a week on each trail then move on. Different markets, different weather, yeah, but doesnt change the fact that skiers have an adverse effect on snow quality and preservation. 

I can see why they didnt open if they are looking for quality product, this isnt a suprise to anyone at this point. Killington has opened with by far the most terrain the last couple years, which I think is great. Sunday River's opening is more like that place in CT that blows a couple hundred feet and cranks up a tbar. At least with K you get a gondi, and 2-3 trail variations, plus the K access road vibe, if thats your thing. Noone gives that place in CT kudos, but for some reason a couple rails (holy crap they really brought their A game!) and a mountain where half the board has a seasons pass does it, and its gods gift to skiing. Hate to break it to, but every single ski area in the country opens with at least 1 rail on the side of a trail these days. Its not a big deal. 

At least with the place in CT most of you guys werent driving 8+ hours round trip for basically the same product. 1 dinky trail with a couple rails. 

But hey, theres snow on the ground and its October, but apparently everyone still likes to bitch about Killington regardless.


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## drjeff (Oct 24, 2010)

roark said:


> But they miss out on a large # of potential passholders by not differentiating their brand from every other mountain. If K offered early/late skiing, I'd still be a passholder there. You're right, I hardly ever went mid-season when better options are available.
> 
> Now I simply don't go to K at all.



With respect to the "modern" New England lift served ski season length these days, there are very few, if any, ski areas where one's pass will potentially get them more days on snow, at the same mountain, over the course of a season than the K pass offers a customer.

The reality is that today, with so many more "warm" weather opportunities to draw folks attention away from snow sliding activities, that the "modern" New England lift served ski season is 6 to 8 weeks shorter than it used to be.  Can an area turn a profit during the fringe seasons?? Sure,  but I think that it's quite safe to say that fringe season operations aren't a big cash cow at any area, or else I'm sure that we'd be seeing a bunch more places in the race to open 1st and then stay open the latest, and that's an unfortunate thing in my book


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## threecy (Oct 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington.



Huh?


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## riverc0il (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up.


Adding caps for two words is simply adding emphasis. Its an attempt to deal with the inherent limitations of online communications in which you can not include inflection in your written word. Just like I might use an emoticon to express what you might not be able to understand simply by reading the typed word. :roll:

I hesitate to continue to beat the dead horse, but you kind of twisted my words. I merely suggested any one willing to ski in October is likely doing so with the understanding that coverage will not be perfect and they may need to bring their "rock skis". I think this is a pretty universally held thought for those skiing in October. I never said "everyone is looking for the same thing I am"... but rather there is an understanding that early season and especially October is not going to be perfect wall to wall. As K wants to define it, they simply can not have October skiing if they want to meet their regular season guest expectations. And that is fine. I have skied October enough to get the feel for the a significant number of October skiers out there. They are not the norm. And their expectations are much less than the norm. There are no real expectations at all. Folks are just really stoked to be skiing in October and don't really care that much about coverage.


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## AdironRider (Oct 24, 2010)

Dude, you spouted off that anyone would be happy with the product, in ALL CAPS. You and I both have been on this forum and others long enough to know that the way you wrote that was an armchair quarterback statement, with broad generalizations of peoples preference. Its fine, I would rather ski K than Sunday River anyones, and as many people on this board have agreed, yourself included. Im just not that bent out of shape they didnt open, while you wish they were. I didnt twist your words. You said anyone skiing in October would have been happy with the product, and I disagreed, as I think plenty of casual skiers would be interested in skiing in October, but not on a crap product. To each their own, and Ive skied plenty early season myself. 

The Denver market and the clientel at Loveland on opening weekend shows there are plenty of gapers still willing to get after it in October, and while yes, different markets, I dont see only hardcores being the only ones back East. But I suppose if you want to go with wide blanket statements, yes, more hardcores are out than other skiers, yes.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2010)

threecy said:


> Huh?



oh master of ski business knowledge, why don't you give us a year by year breakdown from K's inception


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## threecy (Oct 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> oh master of ski business knowledge, why don't you give us a year by year breakdown from K's inception



I'm not expert on Killington, but "well north of a million skiers" doesn't sound right, especially "For decades"


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## AdironRider (Oct 24, 2010)

I know for a while (90's era) they did a couple million plus seasons, but Im no encylopedia.


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## jerryg (Oct 24, 2010)

I find it amusing that there was a whole thread about what constitutes a legit opening and what SR has done was considered to have met said definition. But now that they've opened first, on the same amount of vert as glades, and with an additional trail today, people are backtracking and crapping on them for what people don't consider 'quality.' that is spool lame. People wanted go ski and SR made it happen. People there have been happy and unfortunately there are some poor sports. Me? I'm just ticked I'm down in FLA and can't ski till next weekend.


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## abc (Oct 24, 2010)

It's fun people keep debating on this thread. Because every time I open the thread list page, there's this glaring thread title "Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season"! 

I wonder how many more weeks this thread will stay alive, keep reminding everyone K did NOT open on the weekend of Oct 23/24, when Sunday River did. Now, re-definte "*before*"!

I'll also look up the defintition of "embarassment" and see if it fits...


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## whitemtn27 (Oct 24, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The thing that is tough for so many to accept (me included and I first skied K in the winter of '82-'83 and have skied there over the years from late Oct through early June at one point or another) is that FWIW, Powdr has decided that "their" vision of the K brand is only going to be X% (insert whatever number you want) of what the "old" K brand was.



This is exactly right.  Killington built their following based on size, nightlife, and consistently having a very long (if not the longest) season year in, year out.

You can get hung up on details.  Was this weekend's product potentially not worth it?  Will people tolerate thin cover?  Might it rain in November and waste some investment?  These aren't really important.  You can argue for years about this forecast or that water bar and never reach a consensus that everyone is happy with.

What's upsetting is the lack of commitment to the long season.  They can't seem to decide if it's their thing or not, and it's hurting them.  Say I'm in the market for a ski house in VT.  If I know for sure that K is going to open ASAP every year and stay open until the bitter end, that is a huge point in their favor.  People make house buying decisions based on that kind of reputation, not to mention season pass purchases.

If they're not going to push for maximum season length, well, they're just another big resort without any real product differentiation.  Which is fine, we would get used to it... but like Riv said it's confusing that they put all that work into The Walkway and then missed a pretty slam dunk opportunity to show off.  That plus the lack of communication* (compared to the Abasins and Lovelands of the world) doesn't make them look like they know/care that the eyes of the East are on them every fall.

*Nothing personal against Spin, who seems like a nice enough guy, but K is really bad at nourishing the stoke compared to the other 'long season' type places.


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## snowmonster (Oct 24, 2010)

It's pretty simple from where I stand: Sunday River under-promised and over-delivered. Going into last week, K had all the advantages in terms of natural snow and snowmaking windows. K also had a packed down base and a new walkway to show off. All SR had was snow guns in place and the willingness to go for it. In the end, the latter is all you need and, as a customer, that's what you want.


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## Johnskiismore (Oct 24, 2010)

snowmonster said:


> It's pretty simple from where I stand: Sunday River under-promised and over-delivered. Going into last week, K had all the advantages in terms of natural snow and snowmaking windows. K also had a packed down base and a new walkway to show off. All SR had was snow guns in place and the willingness to go for it. In the end, the latter is all you need and, as a customer, that's what you want.



Amen


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## ski_resort_observer (Oct 24, 2010)

On kmart's skier visits numbers I don't think it's decades but they did string together a bunch of, 1-1,2m visit seasons before the A41 passes killed the golden goose. . A similar(%) drop in skier visits during the same time period happened at the other big ASC resort in Vermont, Mt Snow. The A41 pass program did help SR, the Loaf I don't think anything can help them regarding skier visits. It will always be a skiers mountain bringing up the rear for CNLstable of resorts,  revenue/profitwise. 

Personally I don't get too riled up over an early opening by one or a few resorts. In the 90's it was the Bush vs kmart as far as pumping out some marketing snow, grab some employees to ski the hundred or so feet of slop, get on TV.  

In the first few years of the 21C it was Rod Taylor down in little old Woodbury Mt who grabbed the titles while the big boys played cat and mouse with each other up north. I know some disrespect this but skiing is skiing. Now the CNL/Boyne partnership is making a change in the mentality of SR. 

I respect SR for pulling it off and obviously alot of folks enjoyed the results. As mentioned they will probably not last thru the upcoming warm and wet weather this week but they they exceeded expectations with their customer base and that is just smart business which in this case pays off to the tune of about 500,000 skier visits per season.


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## bigbob (Oct 24, 2010)

Well Tom, I just got back from Sunday River. I Asked Darcy if she had gotten her beer yet, she said no, but it was going to be a full case! She was riding up the chair with a reporter from WCSH 6 out of Portland. Video should be on tonight's news and I heard another station was going to interview her later in the day.
Were the conditions superb, hey, it's October, and they had 2 trails open. I did not here any complaints! I ended up running into an old customer of mine and skiing 6 runs with him. Also took a ride up the chair with a Mnt Ops guy, speaking of those types. Very positive about opening for the pass holders and getting the early season stoke going. He pointed out some less than ideal conditions and stated the people out today could care less about that, as long as they were open and trying to please their customer base. They employees in the base lodge were all happy to be back at work also. BTW, checked my ski bases and no addition gouges, they were my rock skis.
I am sure you can remember last seasons start being difficult. I remember Killington being mobbed however, almost too crowded. If you want to grow your visits numbers, listen to your core customers and run with it! Don't be shy, you are supposed to be communicating with us! Boyne is not bashful about getting open early.


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## bigbob (Oct 24, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Yesterday was not opening day. You are talking 18+ hours of snowmaking from after they opened to the time that they opened once again the following day, yesterday.
> 
> Sunday River had everyone totally in the dark for quite some time, no communication at all. No cams, didn't say anything when snowmaking got underway Thursday evening, didn't say anything Friday about snowmaking being underway, and didn't announce an opening prior to opening. They announced that they were open after they had already been open a while.
> 
> ...



 Skippy, I rode the lift today with a Sunday River employee. He said when he came to work last week and saw a snow flake flutter down he knew the opening was coming soon. He did not know that they were planning to open Friday since they were so temperature dependant on having a long enough window to get enough base down so they could open. The difference is they ran with the ball, pulled it off, and, get this, they opened!


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## DJAK (Oct 24, 2010)

Having messaged "first to open" scenarios at both of these resorts within the last decade and knowing the ops and ownership groups within each, my thoughts can be summed up with two words.

Epic Thread. 

Had to post in it somehow.


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## Newpylong (Oct 24, 2010)

We absolutely are comparing Apples to Apples. It's apparent you haven't skied Sunday River very much. In my opinion Upper T2 and Sunday Punch are very comparable to having Rime and Reason open - both length-wise and vertical. The only statistical advantage Killington would have is Great Northern to get down there - but that should be thrown out of the comparison because it's a sh!t trail and you would have needed to hike back out to ski it again.

While we're comparing, I was at Sumday Bigger yesterday and the conditions were considerably better than the perception/assumptions I've been reading here. It was noticably better than both of their last Holloween openings.



AdironRider said:


> Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.
> 
> I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.
> 
> ...


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## SkiFanE (Oct 24, 2010)

Was there today.  Don't care about who opened first, all I know is that it was awesome.  Main parts of trail were great, ice chunks and a couple small gulley's were only obstacles on T2, Sunday Punch opened with a little  hop over the snow making pipes - great run.  By 1pm things had started softening up perfectly, Sunday Punch had started to form soft bumps, snow got a little dirtier near lift.  I didn't run over any rocks.  Not bad download lines either.  

I <3 SR


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.
> 
> I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.
> 
> ...



Explain to me how not opening this week for Killington and opening this week for Sunday River effects what happens in late April?  Can't be money, they both spent the same time blowing snow, can't be because of the upcoming weather, both will be affected.  The only difference i see is they both wasted money on early season snow that could melt/wash away in the coming weeks.....of course one chose to put the snow to use, while the other is sitting on it an praying that the warm ground, warm air temps, and showers to come doesn't dimish it to much.

Oh one more thing, you are right that Sunday River won't be open in late April or early May, but not because anything that happend this week.  It's because, in case you haven't noticed,  SR early SL late.


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## Brewbeer (Oct 24, 2010)

K'ton is NOT the place it used to be.  I can remember skiing AND Mtn biking off the old K peak double on Columbus day, on several occasions.  Not any more.


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## Geoff (Oct 24, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I know for a while (90's era) they did a couple million plus seasons, but Im no encylopedia.



POWDR doesn't report skier visit numbers at Killington but they still claim the #1 slot.   Okemo does ~610,000 to 630,000 so you have to figure Killington is a little higher.   What you can do is look at the Access Road traffic counter maintained by the state.   It's down 30% since POWDR took over.    If Killington is 625,000 to 650,000 now, even the worst of the ASC years were around a million.

As a property owner in town, a 30% decline is bad for me.   As a season pass holder, I certainly enjoy the less crowded mountain.   I think POWDR is incompentent at marketing their only eastern resort and I think it's a shame that this incompetence is screwing a lot of property owners in the region including the Texas boys who own all the developable land at the bottom of the hill.   With a crashed real estate market and downright lousy prospects for reliable midweek rental income, nobody is going to buy into the resort at the premium prices a developer would command for slopeside housing.   If I were the H.L. Hunt oil money trust fund money guys, I'd be pissed as hell at the Utards from POWDR who trashed my investment.


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## threecy (Oct 24, 2010)

Killington & Pico Skier Visits under American Skiing Company (from 10-K filings)

1997-98:  1,077,000
1998-99:  978,000
1999-00:  939,000
2000-01:  1,085,000
2001-02:  953,000
2002-03:  1,045,000
2003-04:  955,000
2004-05:  986,000
2005-06:  795,000


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## Highway Star (Oct 24, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I agree with DHS.
> 
> When you look at the history of the Killington brand, you see that Pres Smith was very innovative and decided from the first day that the "product" was skiing. When you had more product, you made more money. They were one of the first big mountains to install snowmaking. Why? Not because they needed it, but because it allowed them to open earlier and stay open later. Pres explained, I believe, in Karen Lorentz's book that when you extend the season on both ends, you extend the length of your "prime season" in the middle. You also earn a reputation that brings people to the middle of the ski season.
> 
> ...


 
Exceptionally good post.

Personally, I view the weekly skier visit figures thoughout the season as taking a sort of bell curve shape, when plotted against date. So, less at the beginning and end, lots in the middle. Problem is, they shrank the bell curve, in width (shorter season).......resulting in lower peak volume as well. They've lost 350k yearly visits, that's probably 50k early and late season visits, the rest are mid season, top $$$$ visits. Ouch.

Major problem for them is that Killington is "the church for easter sunday", to quote Dave Rathburn. Too many lifts, too many trails, costs too much money to run. POWDR is in tough spot having lost so many visits. They have to make the snow and run at least the primary lifts - what gets cut is the quality of services, resurface snowmaking, grooming, running secondary lifts, base depths, season length, etc, etc.  Without the skier visits to support proper operations, it's not the same place it was when it was a true premium operation 15 years ago.

They currently lack a strong year-round, four season resort strategy which is hurting real estate.

Real estate and business in the region is in a major depression. There are many properties falling into disrepair or businesses shutting down. One of the theories proposed when POWDR came in is that they were tasked with running the regional economy into the ground, destroying the weak businesses and properties. Then a village would be pushed through and skier visits would be regrown, with the village benefiting. Sounds like they are still on that path.

*I downgraded to a blackout pass this year, and did not get a parking pass. That was because they closed early in the spring. A good number of my friends did the same. *

*After this fiasco, I won't be spending any money at Killington resort's businesses this year - food/bev, gear, etc. There are plenty of places down the access road that deserve my business. I won't be inviting anybody up to spend money at Killington resort. I'll ski ~50 days on the blackout pass, @ $13 per day, negatively impacting their yield per visit numbers. They may have some of my money "locked" up, but this kind of BS ensures they won't get any more.*

*This will probably be my last year at Killington anyway, I've had enough, and will be planning to take a group of people to start a house at Sugarbush or Stowe. Maybe even SR/SL....eewwww.*


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## Highway Star (Oct 24, 2010)

threecy said:


> Killington & Pico Skier Visits under American Skiing Company (from 10-K filings)
> 
> 1997-98: 1,077,000
> 1998-99: 978,000
> ...


 
Figures in the early 90's and late 80's were stronger.


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## jerryg (Oct 25, 2010)

No one is debating that when K opens, they open with more terrain than SR, but saying that SR's opening is like Woodbury is just ridiculous and is again akin to more sour grapes. I don't really think anyone in here is bitching about K and the comment half the board members having a pass at SR us probably pretty far off as well. I would say that the majority of board members ski in Vermont. Regardless, who cares? SR opened and people had fun. They had a couple tails open and the vert is the same as that Glades.


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## Geoff (Oct 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Figures in the early 90's and late 80's were stronger.



I'm not sure you can trust the Preston Smith numbers.   SEC reporting regulations were different then.


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## threecy (Oct 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I'm not sure you can trust the Preston Smith numbers.   SEC reporting regulations were different then.



Also, some of the inflated skier visit numbers from the S-K-I Ltd. days included Mt. Snow (similar to how they were combining Killington and Mt. Snow in some newspaper snow reports).  I believe the first million skier visit year was reported was circa 1987.


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## Geoff (Oct 25, 2010)

threecy said:


> Also, some of the inflated skier visit numbers from the S-K-I Ltd. days included Mt. Snow (similar to how they were combining Killington and Mt. Snow in some newspaper snow reports).  I believe the first million skier visit year was reported was circa 1987.



I don't think it matters.   Under POWDR, Killington is down 30%.   You can look at traffic counters or state sales tax collection numbers.   As I wrote earlier in this thread, it's now fine on what used to be super-crowded holiday periods.   Most season pass holders are skiing on blackout passes so the advanced terrain is fairly uncrowded.   POWDR is short staffed so Snowshed and Rams Head lodges and services are a disaster.   You can usually get a seat in Mahogany Ridge in KBL or Bear bar at noon.   The high speed lifts and the gondolas are busy but the fixed grip lifts don't get used by the tourists.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington.   .



I officially retract this statement. 

Please read: 

For decades Killington averaged north of 900K skier visits, several times exceeding the one million mark.

Happy threecy?


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## MonkeyBrook (Oct 25, 2010)

Bottom line, we skied at SR Sat and Sunday and no one skied (lift serviced at K).....K will open soon and skiing will be great as well.  As for conditions, they were exactly as one would expect for October 23-24.  I would rather ski on what I did this weekend vs waiting for a few weeks....just my $.02.


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## threecy (Oct 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I officially retract this statement.
> 
> Please read:
> 
> ...



Just wanted to make sure a clearer picture is out there.  I would read "well north of a million skiers" as anywhere from 1.1M to perhaps 1.9M - if it where in that range consistently, it would be a 50%+ dropoff.


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 25, 2010)

MonkeyBrook said:


> Bottom line, we skied at SR Sat and Sunday and no one skied (lift serviced at K).....K will open soon and skiing will be great as well.  As for conditions, they were exactly as one would expect for October 23-24.  I would rather ski on what I did this weekend vs waiting for a few weeks....just my $.02.



Lucky bastard. Good for you guys. Very Beastly.


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## Highway Star (Oct 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I don't think it matters. Under POWDR, Killington is down 30%. You can look at traffic counters or state sales tax collection numbers. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it's now fine on what used to be super-crowded holiday periods. Most season pass holders are skiing on blackout passes so the advanced terrain is fairly uncrowded. POWDR is short staffed so Snowshed and Rams Head lodges and services are a disaster. You can usually get a seat in Mahogany Ridge in KBL or Bear bar at noon. The high speed lifts and the gondolas are busy but the fixed grip lifts don't get used by the tourists.


 
I think you can figure on 1.3M+ peak skier visits for Killington and Pico combined, in the early 90's, when they were separate businesses.  Thus they are down 50% from peak.

If you look at the SEC sales docs for pico -> asc, the target was 1.4M+ skiers per year with the interconnect and village.  They have a loooooong way to go.


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## Riverskier (Oct 25, 2010)

AdironRider- You are clearly misinformed. The general consensus among people who have skied both places is that the terrain/vertical of T2 and Upper Sunday Punch is comparable to the terrain/vertical of the trails Killington opens with. Comparing Sunday River's opening to Woodbury is laughable.

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that most of the negativity about Sunday River's opening is coming from people who didn't ski this weekend. The general consensus among those who skied Sunday River this weekend was that the conditions were pretty good, at least by October standards. I skied yesterday and had a blast! No base damage and I thought the snow quality was pretty good. And after a 6 month off season, 2 600 vert runs is more than enough terrain to have a great time and knock the rust off. So, to those reading this thread, who do you want to believe, a K marketing rep that is a sore loser, people like AdironRider who can't get their facts straight, people assessing conditions from their computer screens hundreds of mile away, or those who were actually there?

I for one say thank you Boyne! You made many of your core customers and other chomping at the bit very happy! I am sure you will be rewarded for your efforts, if not by ticket sales, through the publicity you receive from being first in the nation, and the goodwill you create you with your customers.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 25, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> ...and those hardcore ones who earned their turns at Killington today.



I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?


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## Mildcat (Oct 25, 2010)

riverskier said:


> adironrider- you are clearly misinformed. The general consensus among people who have skied both places is that the terrain/vertical of t2 and upper sunday punch is comparable to the terrain/vertical of the trails killington opens with. Comparing sunday river's opening to woodbury is laughable.
> 
> The funny thing about this whole discussion is that most of the negativity about sunday river's opening is coming from people who didn't ski this weekend. The general consensus among those who skied sunday river this weekend was that the conditions were pretty good, at least by october standards. I skied yesterday and had a blast! No base damage and i thought the snow quality was pretty good. And after a 6 month off season, 2 600 vert runs is more than enough terrain to have a great time and knock the rust off. So, to those reading this thread, who do you want to believe, a k marketing rep that is a sore loser, people like adironrider who can't get their facts straight, people assessing conditions from their computer screens hundreds of mile away, or those who were actually there?
> 
> I for one say thank you boyne! You made many of your core customers and other chomping at the bit very happy! I am sure you will be rewarded for your efforts, if not by ticket sales, through the publicity you receive from being first in the nation, and the goodwill you create you with your customers.



*^^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^^*


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## Mildcat (Oct 25, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?



Nice catch Root! :lol:


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## Geoff (Oct 25, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?



They don't want people up there if they have guns going with snowmaking hoses out in the middle of the trail or snow cats on the trails pushing snow around.   I think that's reasonable.


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## Highway Star (Oct 25, 2010)

Was this a waste of a walkway?  I just looked at the NOAA elevation forecast and accuweather 15 day.  Assuming the forecast pans out, haha:  things DO NOT look good for opening this weekend it is going to be wet + warm and I have to assume much of those piles are going to met.   But the week after, temps drop off dramaticly, they can start rebuilding up top and then move down into snowdon and bunny buster starting next Wednesday.  So they could conceivably open top to bottom off the K-1 on Friday 11/5/10 or Saturday 11/6/10.  If the weather stays cooler, they might not even have the need for the walkway this year.  I will be bothered if they built this walkway and then open as normal and don't use it.  Was it really just a cheap hedge against being shut down on Thanksgiving?  

I liked heavenly traverse as a trail.


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## mondeo (Oct 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Was this a waste of a walkway? I just looked at the NOAA elevation forecast and accuweather 15 day. Assuming the forecast pans out, haha: things DO NOT look good for opening this weekend it is going to be wet + warm and I have to assume much of those piles are going to met. But the week after, temps drop off dramaticly, they can start rebuilding up top and then move down into snowdon and bunny buster starting next Wednesday. So they could conceivably open top to bottom off the K-1 on Friday 11/5/10 or Saturday 11/6/10. If the weather stays cooler, they might not even have the need for the walkway this year. I will be bothered if they built this walkway and then open as normal and don't use it. Was it really just a cheap hedge against being shut down on Thanksgiving?
> 
> I liked heavenly traverse as a trail.


They'll probably use it to claim "first to open for the season" and call it good enough, but that'll only give them a couple days.

I just don't understand it. According to all reports and any reasonable estimation, they had enough snow to open before SR and with probably better base depth. They spent the money on the snow, spent the money on the walkway. The only other expenses would have been grooming, operating two lifts and the lodges. I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain, and announcing that they'd be open on Friday would have gotten them visits from almost anyone who skied SR on Friday. I'm not sure why they insist on full width, not a pebble showing conditions to open in mid-October with, but that's the only thing that I can think of that would cause them not to open. That or there's significant expense having staff work three days and then not work again for 2 weeks.


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## Highway Star (Oct 25, 2010)

mondeo said:


> They'll probably use it to claim "first to open for the season" and call it good enough, but that'll only give them a couple days.
> 
> I just don't understand it. According to all reports and any reasonable estimation, they had enough snow to open before SR and with probably better base depth. They spent the money on the snow, spent the money on the walkway. The only other expenses would have been grooming, operating two lifts and the lodges. I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain, and announcing that they'd be open on Friday would have gotten them visits from almost anyone who skied SR on Friday. I'm not sure why they insist on full width, not a pebble showing conditions to open in mid-October with, but that's the only thing that I can think of that would cause them not to open. That or there's significant expense having staff work three days and then not work again for 2 weeks.


 
It boggles the mind, really.  I suppose this has to be taken in the context of all the other extremely poor decisions/blunders they have made over the past few years and the motivations behind them.


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## mondeo (Oct 25, 2010)

SpinmasterK said:


> Not really, because I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening!


So here's the crux of POWDR's problem...you may not consider it a quality opening, but your customers do.


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## mister moose (Oct 25, 2010)

spinmaster said:
			
		

> Not really, because I don't count opening on an 8" base with "These are early season conditions with base depths ranging from thin cover in a few spots to two-feet deep in others and some natural obstacles exist so please ski and ride with care," a quality opening!



Just curious, what would you call an area that opened last year with these signs posted?

"Early/Late season conditions exist - Some walking required."


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## Geoff (Oct 25, 2010)

mister moose said:


> Just curious, what would you call an area that opened last year with these signs posted?
> 
> "Early/Late season conditions exist - Some walking required."



I'd call it Killington when the Excel spreadsheet said it was supposed to be open.   Clearly, the Excel spreadsheet didn't call for it to be open on Friday October 22nd.   Sunday River didn't seem to get the memo from Utah.


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## bigbob (Oct 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I'd call it Killington when the Excel spreadsheet said it was supposed to be open.   Clearly, the Excel spreadsheet didn't call for it to be open on Friday October 22nd.   Sunday River didn't seem to get the memo from Utah.



I think that SK let's the decision to open come from Newry, no need to call Michigan!


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## Barnibus (Oct 26, 2010)

mondeo said:


> So here's the crux of POWDR's problem...you may not consider it a quality opening, but your customers do.



It was in fact quality product, Anything above northridge last weekend= faceshots, bottomless snow. No reason not to have been open. PERIOD Did not hit ground once. And there was enough snow for an opening weekend crowd.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 26, 2010)

I wonder what kind of damage both Sunday River and Killington suffered from last nights heavy rain and todays warm temps.  I know in the Upper Valley of NH that we got some really heavy rain with temps in the 50's last night.  Today it got even warmer with temps in the high 60's.  It appeared from the radar last night that K and SR were not spared.


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## neil (Oct 26, 2010)

Doesn't look that good on the Killington cams, but I don't know if you can see the area where they were making snow on them.


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## Puck it (Oct 26, 2010)

Peak cam show some snow on GN but it is only a sliver.


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## oakapple (Oct 26, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain. . . .


I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, _on top of that_, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.


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## Greg (Oct 26, 2010)

oakapple said:


> But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, _on top of that_, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.



:lol:


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## mondeo (Oct 26, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, _on top of that_, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.


I don't accuse them of being completely spreadsheet driven, but I do know they pack the place for just Rime and Reason. Maybe it's all season pass holders, and SR opening is all Killington skiers so SR makes money when Killington doesn't.

If they only considered day to day profits, then blowing snow in front of meltdowns the last two years is more than mindboggling. Blowing snow for a chance of opening and then having unreasonably high expectations for snow coverage mid-October makes a little more sense. Not much, but a little.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 26, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I have no idea whether that’s close to a break-even proposition for them. But it’s ironic that people accuse them of being spreadsheet-driven, and then, _on top of that_, complain that even their spreadsheet model is wrong.



I don't think it's ironic at all, or at least you're misunderstanding the underlying nature of the complaint when people are saying POWDR is spreadsheet driven.  What they mean is that POWDR is making a simplistic calculation based upon lift ticket revenue they can generate on an October day by going for an early opening vs. the money spent on snowmaking to achieve said early opening.  The criticism is that this has the impact of destroying the one thing K-Mart has always stood for (leaving their market positioning completely adrift), makes a mockery of their attempt to reclaim "Beast of the East" status and erodes the equity and goodwill of their most passionate supporters/homeowners/local businesses who signed up years ago predicated on a 7-8 month season.

Aside from that, it's a smashingly successful business decision.  Just look at all of the customers they've chased away since they bought the place.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 26, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Aside from that, it's a smashingly successful business decision.  Just look at all of the customers they've chased away since they bought the place.



I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?

I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story.  Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA.  Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later.  BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.

I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there.  So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...


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## gmcunni (Oct 26, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> The criticism is that this has the impact of destroying the one thing K-Mart has always stood for (leaving their market positioning completely adrift), makes a mockery of *their attempt to reclaim "Beast of the East" status *and erodes the equity and goodwill of their most passionate supporters/homeowners/local businesses who signed up years ago predicated on a 7-8 month season.



are they pushing the Beast of the East marketing campaign this year?


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 26, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?
> 
> I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story.  Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA.  Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later.  BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.
> 
> I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there.  So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...



Enter Geoff.............

I am only a 5 year passholder at K so I will defer to Geoff and others who not only been there longer, much longer, but to those who have a stake in the future of Killington ie property owners.

A few things to expect.....

Yes the days of the bronze pass is gone, so you lose a chunk of people from that segment, but on top of that many feel (I believe Geoff has some good data) they have driven away many of the core Killington customers.  Those core customers are those who chose Killington over others because of an October to late May season.  By not having this long season Killington has become just like every other mountain around in terms of season length.  I believe you will also here that midweek is down because of the closing of certain pods/lifts, ski lessons/school is priced through the roof now, etc.  I could go on, but like I said, I will leave this up to the people who have been there longer and have a larger stake in Killington.


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## abc (Oct 26, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?
> 
> I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story.  Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA.  Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later.  BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.
> 
> I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there.  So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...


I'm not a K regular. I don't have a pass. I used to ski K a few weekends a season. But lately I haven't gone as often. However, when I used to go to K more, it's often late in the season! 

The truth being, I like K but not overly impressed by it. When everybody is open, I have a hard time deciding where to go. But come late April/early May, K is the only game in the lower VT and within a 5 hr sphere of NYC. Granted, the lift ticket is no longer full price, which also appeals. Though the advantage is doubled since lodging cost also drops considerably late April on. So for me, one of K's virtue is indeed it's long season! 

Does the late season visitor count and lift ticket receipt justify openning early and late? Maybe or maybe not. But by NOT staying open passed other mountains' closing date, it's now an also-ran instead of THE premier mountain of the NE. Now that I can't ski in K late season, I rarely ski there. So when others ask me for suggestion of where to do, K is no longer in the list...

Openning early and late is partly advertising. When you're the only game in the entire NE, you have a captive audiance. Give it up, they'll have to work much harder to achieve the same advertising visibility.


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## roark (Oct 26, 2010)

The problem is that without an early open & late close, K isn't any more appealing than Sugarbush, MRG, Stowe, Jay, etc. For me, the drive time is only marginally more to get to those places. Let's be real, the terrain at K is middle of the pack of that list, and sustained skiable vertical is as well. 

For decades, K's niche has been early/late. That is 'Beastly.' The current K is just another McMountain.


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## millerm277 (Oct 26, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?



Yes. Traffic is down 30%+ from the 90s, while other areas have gained, and a large portion of that is SINCE Powdr's takeover. Other people have numbers from the sales tax receipts and traffic counter numbers that show a continuing decline.

While other areas could reposition themselves, Killington's biggest asset was the season and the size of the mountain. Both have shrunk. They don't have a village for the Okemo/Stratton crowd, and most likely never will, and the mountain's terrain and layout is very much geared toward a higher-level skier. 

SR and the Loaf are making a compelling case for switching mountains if you're within their drive distance, and Killington isn't doing much to stop it besides always coming in second in everything.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers? Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?


There's no question that POWDR has driven away skiers, though certainly not intentionally.  When they took over, they shortened the season even further than ASC had in its latter years, and made a number of boneheaded, tin-eared decisions that alienated many of their most devoted customers.  While they have subsequently reversed many of these, the damage has been done and those skiers are gone forever.  It's not just about not being open October to June (May was always a given).  It's about over promising and under delivering, blaming others for their own mistakes/policies (i.e. no alcohol at the BMMC), killing the mid-week rental business by refusing to operate Skyeship, and not working in a cooperative manner with the town on their Village plans.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  My God, these shitbergs can't even concede that they didn't open first this year w/o dissing the competitor that beat them to the punch.  There are lousy people pushing lousy policies on a mountain that isn't all that special w/o a huge commitment to snowmaking whenever and wherever possible.



> I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story.  Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA.  Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later.  BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.



Show me an analogous ski area in PA.  Where mountain in PA has traditionally been known as "the Beast of PA" but has since abandoned that in reality while continuing to use it as a marketing slogan?  Of course they don't make much money on the days they open early and late in the season, but that is what people mean by operating by spreadsheets.  Opening early and late is an investment in your brand to be the biggest and baddest, as well as a clear incentive to prospective season passholders to spend their dollars at your mountain b/c you'll have the longest season.  I can tell you from personal experience that, growing up in CT, I always use to ski one day on Thanksgiving weekend and on X-Mas day (aka National Jewish Ski Day).  I would invariably choose K-Mart for this day trip b/c I knew they had been open since mid-October and, in the days before the internet, I simply assumed they'd have the best conditions and most trail options.  I highly doubt I was the only one making decisions on this basis.  K-Mart has pissed that advantage away.


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## threecy (Oct 27, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> My God, these shitbergs can't even concede that they didn't open first this year w/o dissing the competitor that beat them to the punch.  There are lousy people pushing lousy policies on a mountain that isn't all that special w/o a huge commitment to snowmaking whenever and wherever possible.



Classy.


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## Bostonian (Oct 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> are they pushing the Beast of the East marketing campaign this year?



Yes in fact they are and to quote the home page:

"Learn to Ski and Ride for free at the BEAST!  December 10, 2010"

"Winter is around the corner at the BEAST"

"Save 50% off Lift Tickets at the BEAST"

If I am not correct, please let me know, but using all green lettering to stand out on their web page citing themselves "as the Beast" looks to me like basic branding.  When I think of the Beast... I think of early openings, late closings, attitude, and a product dedicated to skiing.  However, just looking at the conditions report for today:

"October 27, 2010
Summer is here and the Killington Golf Course, lift-served hiking and mountain biking and the Pico Mountain Adventure Center are open for the summer season."

that is anything but beastly.  No mention of blowing snow (when temps permit) or anything remotely associated with trying to get open as soon as conditions permit.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 27, 2010)

_ Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season _

Is the title of this thread.  Now that Sunday River has already been the first to open and the first to close  _"We have now temporarily suspended operations for the midweek period as some warmer weather moves through ..."_ isn't it time that someone started a new thread to bitch about Killington ?


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2010)

those are all good reasons and like I said I see why longtime Killington people are upset.

You are correct I can't give any analogies to places in PA that completely parallel the Killington thing.  

I was just trying to get a handle on whether the lack of skiers and killington decent is a real issue or just something that is propegating on the internet.

As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter.  We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.

I have skiied both Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak in Vermont. Those places are awesome too, and If I lived closer to VT and was considering a season pass I can't say that Killington would still win my money.


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## gmcunni (Oct 27, 2010)

Bostonian said:


> Yes in fact they are and to quote the home page:



LOL.. i actually did check their web page before i wrote that and for some reason i didn't see the beast references.. now that i go back they are all over the place.


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## Highway Star (Oct 27, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> _ Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season _
> 
> Is the title of this thread. Now that Sunday River has already been the first to open and the first to close _"We have now temporarily suspended operations for the midweek period as some warmer weather moves through ..."_ isn't it time that someone started a new thread to bitch about Killington ?


 
Nahhhh, this thread is perfect for that.  Now we're in the post game phase, determining what went wrong. 

Oh, and since Sunday River is now closed, Killington still has a chance to open before them, when they open again.  :roll:


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## Highway Star (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter. We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.


 
Killington still does pretty well with bus groups. lol.

......but it's nothing like it was during the ASC days.


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## drjeff (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> those are all good reasons and like I said I see why longtime Killington people are upset.
> 
> You are correct I can't give any analogies to places in PA that completely parallel the Killington thing.
> 
> ...



I think that your perspective as a couple of times a year K skier, that doesn't live within the immediate "normal" K regular region is quite refreshing in this discussion and gives an idea as to the views that the vast majority of K's clientele have about their actions the last few weeks/seasons


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## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm new to this forum and this whole Killngton anger thing.  Do you really think that POWDER has driven away skiers?



In a word...  Yes.   

The state of Vermont maintains a traffic counter on the Killington Access Road.   You can look at the data yourself.   Traffic counts are down 30%.

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/Documents/TrafResearch/Publications/pub.htm

The  Vermont Department of Taxes has sales, meals, lodging, and alcohol revenue numbers for Killington.   Those are also off by 30%.

http://www.state.vt.us/tax/statistics.shtml




jimmywilson69 said:


> Doesn't that seem counter intuetive to a successful business model?  Are there really that many people that hate Killington and subsequently don't ski there because they aren't open in October and May?



It's not simply season length.   POWDR showed up and made a huge number of changes that pushed people away.   Here's a partial list of what they did in their first 6 months:

* Fired most of the full time staff.   Offered them "seasonal" jobs with no benefits at lower pay.
* Announced a November 15 to April 15 operating schedule.
* Announced a 3-day operations schedule for the Skyeship gondola.
* Announced a 3-day operations schedule for Killington Base Lodge and the Bear Base Lodge.   Restrooms and ticket kiosks were the only services the other four midweek days.
* Doubled the price of all the kid ski school programs.   
* Took over all the programs run by the Killington Ski Club (hopefuls, junior racing, junior freestyle...) and tripled prices on many of those

I'm missing many others but you get the idea.   Anybody who lives in town knows lots of people who got totally screwed by POWDR.   For many, your family lost health insurance.   If you own a business, you're way down from the 30% drop-off.   If you own property, the collapse of midweek business collapsed real estate prices since your only revenue is peak weekends.



jimmywilson69 said:


> I have read 16 pages of this thread and I honestly see both sides of the story.  Quite frankly I see the same type of angst at my local place in PA.  Pass holders want them to blow snow earlier and stay open later.  BUT the reality is that they don't make much money in the early and late season because it's primarily pass holders who's money they speant early on.
> 
> I have to admit that I've been to killington the past 3 years and I can't complain about the service I have received there.  So I guess I don't know the Killington that alot of you here do...



Other than the hospital in Rutland which you really can't count, Killington and surrounding businesses are the largest employer in Rutland County.   A GE plant in Rutland became #2 when Killington fired all the full timers but Killington has always been the dominant economic driver in the region.   When you remove 30% of the skier visits, that causes a huge amount of pain.   Quite frankly, you don't have a clue if you're trying to compare a tiny commuter hill in Pennsylvania to the regional impact Killington has.

Unless you're trying to use family-oriented services on peak weekends at Snowshed and Rams Head, Killington services are fine.   They're very short staffed so the place falls over when it is stressed.   Holiday periods and ice storms are when you notice it the most.

Vermont skier visits have been fairly flat for the last decade at 4-ish million skier visits.   Killington is the only resort in Rutland County.   Those people simply went elsewhere.   As a friend of mine says, "I've never heard of a business model where you  intentionally set out to lose market share."    That's what happened.   It's great if you are on the hill on a Saturday since it's far less crowded than it used to be.   If you own property in town or work/own a business in town, you have a problem with what happened.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> As someone who ski's there 3 days a year, it is still a great place to ski mid winter.  We bring a bus load, approximately 50 people, up and have a great time skiing the long weekend.
> 
> I have skiied both Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak in Vermont. Those places are awesome too, and If I lived closer to VT and was considering a season pass I can't say that Killington would still win my money.



Certainly at a place as big as Killington, it's hard not to have a reasonably good time for a mid-winter week assuming decent snow.  That said, I think you hit the nail on the head with your second passage.  Killington is competing with those other resorts for skiers who are within a 4-5 hour drive.  Given K-Mart's so-so terrain, confusing/sprawling layout to the uninitiated, and abominable customer service, they don't have anything that makes them stand out anymore as compared to the other resorts you named, all of which get more snow, have better continuous fall lines, offer a friendlier/simpler customer experience and have the same season length.


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## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

How many full time staff members does a ski area need? 

Being placed on full time seasonal status is the nature of the business. Every ski area in the country does this. 

If I was running Killington, I dont think Id have a bunch of full time salaried staff either. Thats just smart business sense. 

Just because ASC was a terribly run company from a financial standpoint, doesnt mean you deserve the results of their mistakes....


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## frankm938 (Oct 27, 2010)

i hiked up and skied on the 16th and had a blast on the 20" of snow.  saw groomers out there on the hill, saw lifts being tested and snowmaking in place.  i thought for sure they would have been open a couple days later.  when they didnt open, i went from pissed to confused (why wouldnt they open with all that snow, snowmaking, new walkway ect...)

then i did a little informal survey of the group of people i ski with (about 35 people, all pass holders, non-AZers)   i simply asked " would you be skiing this wknd if K was open?"
and "when do you plan on starting your season?"
only 4 of the 35 said as soon as the lifts start spinning (im one of the 4)
25 of the group said either the wknd before thanksgiving, the wknd after thanksgiving or thanksgiving wknd
the rest said december or whenever it gets good.

so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed.  when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing
maybe killington knows this and figures its not worth opening early when most of the customers dont care about the early season


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## threecy (Oct 27, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed.  when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing



There's something to be said about being the first one to open for the season vs. simply being the first one to open.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks for the insight.  As a once and done kind of visitor their operations don't really affect me.  Lodges seem staffed appropriately, lifts turn, snow quality seems to be decent.

It sounds like they have attempted (but failed)to have a happy medium between the old K and their version of K.  LIke it has been said they have rebranded themselves and it obviously hasn't payed off with their local/hard core clientel.


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## gmcunni (Oct 27, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> so maybe we as AZers have a false sense of how important the early season because we read each others posts and see how many of us are pissed.  when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing



yup & spring too.  bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> yup & spring too.  bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.




I agree and I think you are right.  Which is what a "corporate" ski resort is worried about.  

As I've said I am starting to understand why someone who lives nearby K or lives close enough to have a season pass would be upset with the Powder decisions.


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## St. Bear (Oct 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> yup & spring too.  bragging rights are cool, they make an impression on the general population but i think most people ski Christmas to March.



I think even March is pushing it.  I've heard it said that ski visits start to drop after President's Weekend, and drop off a cliff after spring break, which is the first week of March in some places.


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## skiingsnow (Oct 27, 2010)

Bostonian said:


> No mention of blowing snow (when temps permit) or anything remotely associated with trying to get open as soon as conditions permit.



They added a bunch of new info to the site last night and it looks like the snow report and K insider got messed up.... Snow report now has the correct info up that had been up for quite a while...


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## whitemtn27 (Oct 27, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> when the reality is that the great majority of skiers dont care about october skiing
> maybe killington knows this and figures its not worth opening early when most of the customers dont care about the early season



But remember, this isn't about how many skier visits they get early and late.  It's about expanding the number of 'peak traffic' weeks mid-season.

Where would you rather go the week after Thanksgiving?  The place that started getting ready 2 weeks earlier, or the place that started blowing snow 6 weeks before and has already been open for a month?

Killington spent a lot of money and years building up their 'longest season' reputation.  I can't imagine they did that because they really cared how many people showed up on Oct 15th.  They did it because it extended their high season a couple of weeks in each direction.

Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout.  K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.


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## drjeff (Oct 27, 2010)

St. Bear said:


> I think even March is pushing it.  I've heard it said that ski visits start to drop after President's Weekend, and drop off a cliff after spring break, which is the first week of March in some places.



I'm quite sure if you asked most ski area general managers (off the record atleast   ) what an "ideal" season would be from an operations standpoint for them(from a costs perspective only), it would be something like:

Big resorts:  Open for Thanksgiving weekend,  Weekends only between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Everyday operations between Christmas and the end of Presidents week.  Weekends only from the end of Presidents week until the weekend that falls closest to St. Patricks Day (or Easter if Easter is in the 1st week of April), and thats it.

Small resorts:  Open for Christmas week.  If you don't have night skiing, then weekends only until Presidents week.  If you have night skiing, then midweek operations only from say 3PM until 9-10PM in January through Presidents week.  Maybe operate weekends only through St Patricks day


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## gmcunni (Oct 27, 2010)

whitemtn27 said:


> Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout.  K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.



lets be fair. they do open early and close late.. just not first and last.   their "brand" hasn't evaporated (yet), people still consider K one of the big players in NE, i think in reality they are.


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## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

650k skier visits is still a ton of people. 

JHole's best season ever is only like 450k.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> then i did a little informal survey of the group of people i ski with (about 35 people, all pass holders, non-AZers) i simply asked " would you be skiing this wknd if K was open?"
> and "when do you plan on starting your season?"
> only 4 of the 35 said as soon as the lifts start spinning (im one of the 4)
> 25 of the group said either the wknd before thanksgiving, the wknd after thanksgiving or thanksgiving wknd
> the rest said december or whenever it gets good.


I know our house lease only runs from November 1 to April 30, so that's a definate consideration, given that most people don't own a house on the mountain. Had they been open last weekend (and next) it would've been day trips, not the full weekend, whereas in November I'll be up full weekends even if the skiing's boring. My house will probably be a bit slow until December, it pretty much died early April last year. Still, when they're the only resort open with minimal trails, you don't need that large a percentage of skiers to fill the place. If you can get a small percentage of all the skiers in the Northeast, that's good enough.

But it seems like there were at least 10 people that I was skiing with last year for opening weekend, exactly who is fuzzy (but it's probably out of about 50, which includes your entire 35.) I'm betting more than 4 will actually show up as soon as they open and houses have started.


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## millerm277 (Oct 27, 2010)

whitemtn27 said:


> Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout.  K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.



To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.

I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

whitemtn27 said:


> Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout. K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.


It's an hour closer than its competition to anyone in Connecticut, NYC, NJ, PA, etc., with the exception of Whiteface, which it beats handily with snowfall. That's a big difference if you go every week. No village, but some like that. Access road is pretty good. Layout isn't chaotic to season pass holders.

It's the closest good enough mountain, and that counts for a lot.


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## gmcunni (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> It's an hour closer than its competition to anyone in Connecticut, NYC, NJ, PA, etc.,. . . .
> 
> It's the closest good enough mountain, and that counts for a lot.



disagree... you say nothing south of K is competition and not in the "good enough" category?


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## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> How many full time staff members does a ski area need?
> 
> Being placed on full time seasonal status is the nature of the business. Every ski area in the country does this.
> 
> ...



Preston Smith always cited the fairly large number of full time employees at Killington as a matter of personal pride and obligation.   Does your employer give you health insurance as a benefit?   Would you think differently of them if they fired you and offered you a lower paying job with no benefits?   From a financial standpoint, they'd make more money by paying you less and chopping off all your benefits.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> disagree... you say nothing south of K is competition and not in the "good enough" category?


For me? Yes. It's the closest with good variety of terrain, natural snowfall, consistency, apres offerings. The primary competition is Sugarbush and Stowe, not Mt. Snow and Stratton. For the stuff I like to ski, I'd be bored to death with those places after a full season skiing there every weekend.


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## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

whitemtn27 said:


> Killington spent a lot of money and years building up their 'longest season' reputation.  I can't imagine they did that because they really cared how many people showed up on Oct 15th.  They did it because it extended their high season a couple of weeks in each direction.
> 
> Take away the 'longest season in the East', and like everyone has correctly pointed out, you are left with a middle of the road mountain with no village and a chaotic layout.  K has no other way to set itself apart from the competition, and the 30% decline in traffic reflects that.



Bingo!

It's all about extending the number of weekends when the parking lots are full.   That's why the Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge the 2nd weekend in April was such a big deal.   You throw a huge party that fills the whole resort when most ski areas are already shutting down for the season.   When Preston Smith was marketing the place like crazy, he filled the lots from pre-Thanksgiving to early May.

Killington's midwinter product is low-average at best.   If you do the November 15th to April 15th operating schedule that POWDR and Chris Nyberg implemented their first year owning Killington, you've killed off the value proposition for buying a season pass.    Layer on the jacked up kid program prices and you end up pushing the families to Okemo, the Bostonians to Sunday River, and a big chunk of your advanced skier base farther north in Vermont.   What remains are a bunch of rather pissed off vacation home owners who just watched their property prices collapse as skier visits dropped 30%.   The midweek condo occupancy rates at Killington are close to 0%.   A decade ago, things were pretty full midweek at peak season.   POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> A decade ago, things were pretty full midweek at peak season.   POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.



I don't care where you are buying - it's foolish to own a vacation home and make any assumption that rental income is going to pay for most of it.  If a high percentage of Killington buyers purchased under that premise then I have no sympathy for them.


----------



## threecy (Oct 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> POWDR destroyed the economics of owning a vacation home and using rental income to pay for most of it.



I'm not sure how you can make that statement with no mention of ASC.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm not disuputing your numbers Geoff, I'm just bringing this up for discussion sakes  Sorry if it has been hashed out previously here at AZ.

Could part of their decline in numbers be because the industry as a whole is down.  I have no fact in this, but I think in roughly the same time period the industry took a hit as a whole.

Obviously 30% is alot, and I don't think everywhere is down 30%.  Has Sugarbush, Stowe, and other NH and ME areas seen an X% increase that can directly correlated to killington skiers that have moved on?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 27, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.
> 
> I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.



I personally hate having to move pod to pod with limited options at each pod. Spend too much time moving place to place then getting back takes more time.


----------



## frankm938 (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I know our house lease only runs from November 1 to April 30, so that's a definate consideration, given that most people don't own a house on the mountain. Had they been open last weekend (and next) it would've been day trips, not the full weekend, whereas in November I'll be up full weekends even if the skiing's boring. My house will probably be a bit slow until December, it pretty much died early April last year. Still, when they're the only resort open with minimal trails, you don't need that large a percentage of skiers to fill the place. If you can get a small percentage of all the skiers in the Northeast, that's good enough.
> 
> But it seems like there were at least 10 people that I was skiing with last year for opening weekend, exactly who is fuzzy (but it's probably out of about 50, which includes your entire 35.) I'm betting more than 4 will actually show up as soon as they open and houses have started.



i bet there were 10 last year opening day, but that wasnt in october last year.


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## drjeff (Oct 27, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> I personally hate having to move pod to pod with limited options at each pod. Spend too much time moving place to place then getting back takes more time.



The only real plus to pod to pod terrain movement is that on some days that can allow you to often get from say a colder, windier, scratchier terrain pod to a pod where the weather conditions may be more comfortable and the snow surface better.  A big plus in spring bump season especially when you can follow the sun around the mountain to where it has softened things up properly.

K is a classic example of that, with AM spring bumps at Bear and then when Bear has mushed up too much, you make your way over towards the Canyon pod


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## gmcunni (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> For me? Yes.



that's fair. for other demographics i suspect Killington has plenty of competition to the south.


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## frankm938 (Oct 27, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> To be fair. For a high-level skier, the layout is fantastic. You can get easily get from one extreme to the other on the mountain, and there is a lot more variation in types of terrain, elevation and the direction it faces than at most other mountains, etc.
> 
> I also personally hate villages and like being able to park 5ft from the hill, and there's a lot of great restaurants (if expensive), as well as TONS of reasonably priced lodging.



i agree, not liking how the mtn is run is one thing, but saying it doesnt have good terrain makes me think people need to explore the place a little more


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## bigbob (Oct 27, 2010)

Speaking of the "Proposed Village", I think moves on their part such as this will do nothing to help sway the "Locals" who are on these planning boards to approve what they want to build, sell, and make a profit on.


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## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Preston Smith always cited the fairly large number of full time employees at Killington as a matter of personal pride and obligation.   Does your employer give you health insurance as a benefit?   Would you think differently of them if they fired you and offered you a lower paying job with no benefits?   From a financial standpoint, they'd make more money by paying you less and chopping off all your benefits.




Yeah I would be pissed, because I work in a year round resort as the restaurant manager. They NEED me to be there year round. Same applies to you Im sure. Unless you work at a ski area with next to no summer activities, your comparison does not apply. 

Killington is not really a year round area (yes they have mtn biking etc, but lets be real here, they can run on about 1/10th the staff in the summertime. So what exactly do they need a bunch of year round staff for? 

So no, I dont think they should hire a bunch of year round people with benefits just because it feels good.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 27, 2010)

So is Killington opening this weekend? And if so, will it be for the season? We know that SR won't start fulltime operations till November, it's just what they do. I would suspect that SR will open again this weekend, close again next midweek, and then reopen for good the following weekend. This would be consistent with last year. There aren't any/many midweek skiers this early and why lose money on operating lifts for a few people when they've already gotten the PR pop?

SR got a mention down here at Disney when Loveland opened. The Orlando news station pointed out that Loveland was the first area in the country to open fulltime fie the season, but that SR had been the first to open with part time operations. They had the segment due to the unseasonably high temps down here.


----------



## Puck it (Oct 27, 2010)

jerryg said:


> So is Killington opening this weekend? And if so, will it be for the season? We know that SR won't start fulltime operations till November, it's just what they do. I would suspect that SR will open again this weekend, close again next midweek, and then reopen for good the following weekend. This would be consistent with last year. There aren't any/many midweek skiers this early and why lose money on operating lifts for a few people when they've already gotten the PR pop?
> 
> SR got a mention down here at Disney when Loveland opened. The Orlando news station pointed out that Loveland was the first area in the country to open fulltime fie the season, but that SR had been the first to open with part time operations. They had the segment due to the unseasonably high temps down here.


 

Not a chance they open this weekend.  Too much loss and they want to open with GN to Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall.  I could eat my words though.  Let's hope.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> that's fair. for other demographics i suspect Killington has plenty of competition to the south.


 


AdironRider said:


> Yeah I would be pissed, because I work in a year round resort as the restaurant manager. They NEED me to be there year round. Same applies to you Im sure. Unless you work at a ski area with next to no summer activities, your comparison does not apply.
> 
> Killington is not really a year round area (yes they have mtn biking etc, but lets be real here, they can run on about 1/10th the staff in the summertime. So what exactly do they need a bunch of year round staff for?
> 
> So no, I dont think they should hire a bunch of year round people with benefits just because it feels good.


Cashiers are one thing, the mechanical staff is another. If you need skilled staff in the winter for lift and groomer maintenance, it's probably hard to find good people that are willing to only work for you half of the year. And if they really wanted to, they could make MTB into a much bigger attraction. It's pretty ridiculous that there's nothing close to Whistler in the East given the size of the local markets they have to draw from and that the size and pitch of the mountain doesn't come into play nearly as much. I think there are a couple places that are moving in that direction, but there's still a long way to go. No reason Killington should be the place to do it, but also no reason against it if they have the will.



Puck it said:


> Not a chance they open this weekend. Too much loss and they want to open with GN to Rime and Reason and Upper East Fall. I could eat my words though. Let's hope.


No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm not disuputing your numbers Geoff, I'm just bringing this up for discussion sakes  Sorry if it has been hashed out previously here at AZ.
> 
> Could part of their decline in numbers be because the industry as a whole is down.  I have no fact in this, but I think in roughly the same time period the industry took a hit as a whole.
> 
> Obviously 30% is alot, and I don't think everywhere is down 30%.  Has Sugarbush, Stowe, and other NH and ME areas seen an X% increase that can directly correlated to killington skiers that have moved on?



Vermont skier visits have been fairly flat at 4-ish million per year for the last decade.   The 30% drop at Killington was not reflected elsewhere.   In particular, Okemo set records since they picked up a lot of the family business that was priced out of Killington when they jacked up their kid ski school prices.

These are Vermont Ski Areas Association numbers.   Killington no longer releases theirs.
2009 - 2010 4.1 million 
2008 - 2009 4.1 million
2007 - 2008 4.3 million
2006 - 2007 3.8 million
2005 - 2006 4.1 million
2004 - 2005 4.4 million
2003 - 2004 4.2 million
2002 - 2003 4.4 million


----------



## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.



After four years of watching these guys, all I know is that they are extremely conservative.   They could easily defer opening for a couple of more weeks if they don't like the looks of the long range forecast even if Rime has plenty of snow on it.   They will open when they open.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Cashiers are one thing, the mechanical staff is another. If you need skilled staff in the winter for lift and groomer maintenance, it's probably hard to find good people that are willing to only work for you half of the year. And if they really wanted to, they could make MTB into a much bigger attraction. It's pretty ridiculous that there's nothing close to Whistler in the East given the size of the local markets they have to draw from and that the size and pitch of the mountain doesn't come into play nearly as much. I think there are a couple places that are moving in that direction, but there's still a long way to go. No reason Killington should be the place to do it, but also no reason against it if they have the will.
> 
> 
> No chance for Saturday, but maybe a shot at Sunday. Depends on if they're in open for the season mode yet; my Killington magic 8 ball went dead approximately April 20th last year.



HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served. 

Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for. 

Oh, and MTB is not like skiing, you want green and blue groomer terrain to build the goods for MTB. 

And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it. 

And I get it, I come off a soulless for saying people shouldnt get their benefits, but its the truth. 

I didnt say nobody should be benefits either though, so keep throwing out examples, but you dont need to keep a bunch of year round staff with full benis at a ski area thats open, at best, 5 months out of the year.


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## Geoff (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served.
> 
> Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...



FYI:   The lease for the State of Vermont for all the state forest land at Killington requires that Killington run a lift in the summer.   I believe that without that provision in the lease, the POWDR version of Killington would completely close the resort for the warm 6 months.   Unless the Texas boys at Eiger/E2M Ventures who control all the devevelopable land for the village insist, I doubt we'll ever see any upgrades to the Killington summer operation.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> HIghland in NH is worlds ahead of Killington. Some sick MTB terrain there and its all lift served.
> 
> Whistler didnt cheap out on their MTB park. Gravity Logic (the company that builds the trails) does real good work, but as with anything else, you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...


Been to both Whistler and Highland. Trouble for Highland is lack of existing infrastructure; it's great for what it is, but I have a hard time seeing it becoming a MTB destination or expanding much beyond what they already have. Really, Mt. Snow or Okemo are in the best position to do it; big enough both in terrain available and supporting services (food, lodging, etc.,) reasonably close to both Boston and NYC, and existing base of vacation home owners to draw from. Point is, market is fairly ripe for the taking to the first entrant if they go full bore at it.

And I don't think people are necessarily against scaling back from what ASC did, the issue is the manner and scale - abrupt and total.


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## abc (Oct 27, 2010)

I don't think MTB make money for the mountain though.

I used to ride in K a lot. I can count the number of riders if I want. It's nothing like skiing...


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> And if any of you have ridden at Whistler for MTB, you know its worth every penny. And those pennies ended up adding up to several million. So if Killington wants to buck up, they definitely could, but I doubt it.
> 
> .



I have a hard time buying 'several million' for Whistler's MTB operation.

Maybe if you factor in overall lodging and F&B revenue.

I worked at Snowshoe, WV for two summer seasons.  Snowshoe has as big of a MTB operation as any resort in the east plus including a couple of the biggest MTB events each summer.  I can't remember the numbers, but the direct access revenue (read lift/trail usage fees) for the program couldn't have exceeded 100K.  If the residual income of lodging and F&B exceeded 1 million from that operation I'd be shocked.

Snowshoe is no Whistler, but it's a big time resort.  They draw 500K skier visits a seaon and the summertime there is very busy as well.

The full fiscal year I was there, the resort did 38 million in revenue.  About a quarter of which was in the summer where the goal was to simply break even and be busy enough to retain a solid year round staff.

MTB could certainly help K in the summer, but I don't see excellent growth in their summer business short of adding a village, performaning arts center and great event series.  The access road lacks the 'vt charm' off season vacationers are looking for.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

abc said:


> I don't think MTB make money for the mountain though.
> 
> I used to ride in K a lot. I can count the number of riders if I want. It's nothing like skiing...


It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2010)

As a point of comparison for Whistler vs. Snowshoe operations.  When I was at the Shoe, we did 8 million and F&B.  Whistler did 21.  I think the rest of the operations scale fairly similarly and I'd guess Whistler was doing 120ish mil in overall revenue during that same year (2002).


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## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.



If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes. 

And the trails that Whistler has definitely cost the dough. Its unreal how well built the birms, jumps, everything is done. 

Gravity Logic just put in a couple trails for Jackson as well. Just a couple runs off the vertical powerhouse that is Teewinot (400 vert ... maybe) and the cost was well over a mill. Its all in the labor costs. Once its built though, its cheap, cheap, cheap. Its a large upfront cost, but minimal maintenance afterwards. 

Mt. Snow would be the the bees knees for MTB as well. One can dream. 

The point about no village and the overall lameness of the access road when its not winter holds true. That place looks like a dump with no snow on the ground.


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## abc (Oct 27, 2010)

mondeo said:


> It doesn't, but it could if they wanted to make the investment. I guarantee Whistler's does, and their location compared to Killington's is significantly more remote.


Whistler more remote compare to Killington???

What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?


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## AdironRider (Oct 27, 2010)

Whistlers overhead is probably a bit more than the Shoe, all those high speeds, gondis, etc cant be cheap to operate. And that Peak to Peak beast of a gondi definitely wasnt cheap. 

Didnt know the Shoe did that many skier visits. Not bad at all. Good for them. 

The problem with MTB is its a young mans game. At least the downhill aspect of the sport which the ski areas cater to. When you fall riding a downhill run, its really really hurts. Armor is your friend. That being said, given the consequences, I doubt many 30+ dudes with expendable cash are that into downhill biking to support that many resorts in the summer time. 

But the ones that do ride, do so religiously, so while the numbers would be smaller, they'd definitely be a loyal crew if it did get built.


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## mondeo (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes.
> 
> And the trails that Whistler has definitely cost the dough. Its unreal how well built the birms, jumps, everything is done.
> 
> ...


Distance wise, not bad. Actual time, different story. Coming from the airport, you have to drive all the way through Vancouver (much more friendly to pedestrians and bikes than cars,) then it's an hour and a half if you don't get stuck behind some semi for miles. I can't imagine what that drive was like before they redid the road. I think it took us three and a half on a Sunday afternoon on the way there. Maybe it was just a bad day. Boston or Hartford to Killington is 2 and a half, mostly highway and light traffic for the rest. Albany's 2, NYC is 4-5 without an international border.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2010)

abc said:


> Whistler more remote compare to Killington???
> 
> What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?



Vancouver is much closer to Whistler than any city is to Killington.

Killington has the population of Canada within a 6 hour drive though.

guess it depends on how you define 'remote'


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Whistlers overhead is probably a bit more than the Shoe, all those high speeds, gondis, etc cant be cheap to operate. And that Peak to Peak beast of a gondi definitely wasnt cheap.
> 
> Didnt know the Shoe did that many skier visits. Not bad at all. Good for them.
> 
> ...



the Shoe slams

it's unlike any other Eastern area as it's a destination resort much like the West.  Mid-week it's packed with Church Groups from all over the South.  Weekends it's slammed with wealthy DC elites.

I was there during a real estate boom.  Symphony Weekend each summer was the pinnacle.  (We'd) Construct a 500 seat tent with a hard wood floor, cost 75K for the weekend to put in.  F&B would host ridiculous wine parties for the weekend  that barely covered the costs.  But, the resort would sell 6 million in real estate, so it was worth it.

All summer long the village popped with multiple events that drew 5K plus visitors to stay.  24 hours of Snowshoe MTB race, one other big downhill, Bluegrass weekend, Wine and Jazz weekend, Chili Cookoff, a big motorcylce event, Symphony, on and on.  

.....but we'd barely break even for the summer.  Lift tickets was where the money was made


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## AdironRider (Oct 28, 2010)

Thats cool. I can totally see that market share and the Shoe just killing it. Not everyone can blow their wad on a group trip to Jackson, Whistler or Aspen.


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## Geoff (Oct 28, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> If you consider a 1 hour drive from Vancouver and just slightly more from the PDX remote, then yes.



You must have a helluva fast car if you can make it from Vancouver to Whistler in an hour.   You can probably make it in sub-2 from Stanley Park if there's no traffic jam on the Lions Gate Bridge now that they've straightened more of 99.   It's still close to 2 1/2 from the airport since you have to traverse city streets.

I think you meant Seattle.  PDX is Portland, Oregon.   It's 2 1/2 hours from Seattle to Vancouver and close to 5 to get to Whistler.


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## AdironRider (Oct 28, 2010)

Yeah your right. I just lump that whole area together really. 

I was pretty much guessing from memory from my trip there a couple years back. We didnt come from the airport, and had a very hassle free drive I will admit. But its still pretty much right there, in relation to anything from Killington.


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## Geoff (Oct 28, 2010)

abc said:


> Whistler more remote compare to Killington???
> 
> What's the closest city to K that has the population of Vancouver and an interntional airport?



Killington to BOS is 2 hours 45 minutes.   Lots o' flights to Europe and the west coast from there.   Since Vancouver has no highways, the typical drive time for people in metro-Vancover to Whistler is probably only 15 to 20 minutes less.   Those Boston drivers also pass through some pretty major population areas in Southern New Hampshire like Nausea and ManchVegas.   Once you clear West Van and get on 99, there isn't much of a population base closer to Whistler.   Squamish might have 15,000 and that's the only stop lights the whole way.


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## threecy (Oct 28, 2010)

mondeo said:


> If you need skilled staff in the winter for lift and groomer maintenance, it's probably hard to find good people that are willing to only work for you half of the year.



A sizable number of ski area maintenance workers in New England collect unemployment every year.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> A sizable number of ski area maintenance workers in New England collect unemployment every year.



What does this mean?  It's so vague as to be meaningless.

What proportion collect unemployment?  If it's 10%, that could be a sizable number but still by tiny in scheme of things.  How long do they collect unemployment for?  The entire off-season?  Two weeks?  What's the impact on their benefits?  Is this their primary job?

Shouldn't "insiders" be able to provide a little more detail if they're trying to make a point?


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## WJenness (Oct 28, 2010)

Pic blatently stolen from KZone:






Pic was taken yesterday... Looks like KTon lost 90% (or more) of the snow they made...

Oops...

-w


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## Highway Star (Oct 28, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Pic blatently stolen from KZone:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Most of the snow they made would be on Upper Rime and the upper half of Lower Rime, both of which are not easily seen in that pic.   

skippysnow, out.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 28, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> What does this mean?  It's so vague as to be meaningless.
> 
> What proportion collect unemployment?  If it's 10%, that could be a sizable number but still by tiny in scheme of things.  How long do they collect unemployment for?  The entire off-season?  Two weeks?  What's the impact on their benefits?  Is this their primary job?
> 
> Shouldn't "insiders" be able to provide a little more detail if they're trying to make a point?



I wouldn't be surprised if I high number of maintenance folks collect in the off season.

This was 15 years ago, but I used to do the ski bum / beach bum life between Cape Cod and Stowe.  If my employers filled out a form with their intent to rehire me full time the following summer season, I could've just stayed on the Cape and collected the whole winter.  At least that's the way it worked in Mass.  I'm not sure if the rules are the same in other states.  

I'd say 20% of the full time summer staff chose to remain on the Cape, take the winter off and collect. The rest would either head to Florida to work for the winter or to ski areas.


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## Geoff (Oct 28, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> What does this mean?  It's so vague as to be meaningless.
> 
> What proportion collect unemployment?  If it's 10%, that could be a sizable number but still by tiny in scheme of things.  How long do they collect unemployment for?  The entire off-season?  Two weeks?  What's the impact on their benefits?  Is this their primary job?
> 
> Shouldn't "insiders" be able to provide a little more detail if they're trying to make a point?



Of course it's meaningless.

My point still stands...   Firing full time workers and offering them seasonal work at less pay and with no benefits really sucks.   For the life of me, I don't understand why ski resort employees don't go union.


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## mondeo (Oct 28, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Of course it's meaningless.
> 
> My point still stands... Firing full time workers and offering them seasonal work at less pay and with no benefits really sucks. For the life of me, I don't understand why ski resort employees don't go union.


Because it would be way too easy to break the union?


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## Newpylong (Oct 28, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Because it would be way too easy to break the union?



Not really... lol.


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## Newpylong (Oct 28, 2010)

Given the sh!t snow the last few days I guarantee you Rime doesn't look any better than that...




Highway Star said:


> Most of the snow they made would be on Upper Rime and the upper half of Lower Rime, both of which are not easily seen in that pic.
> 
> skippysnow, out.


----------



## threecy (Oct 28, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> What does this mean?  It's so vague as to be meaningless.



It's not uncommon to see maintenance workers on unemployment from sometime in April until around Labor Day, for a variety of reasons.

From a worker's perspective, many work 7 day weeks during peak season and some thus look forward to the break.

From a business's perspective, routine off-season work can be completed in the weeks following closing and the three months leading into the season.  Also from a business's perspective, some state laws have allowed for overtime laws to be reset upon rehiring in the fall.


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## KevinS (Oct 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> It's not uncommon to see maintenance workers on unemployment from sometime in April until around Labor Day, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> From a worker's perspective, many work 7 day weeks during peak season and some thus look forward to the break.
> 
> From a business's perspective, routine off-season work can be completed in the weeks following closing and the three months leading into the season.  Also from a business's perspective, some state laws have allowed for overtime laws to be reset upon rehiring in the fall.



And from the taxpayers perspective, they get to subsidize lower ticket prices for skiers. Sweet!


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## threecy (Oct 28, 2010)

KevinS said:


> And from the taxpayers perspective, they get to subsidize lower ticket prices for skiers. Sweet!



Well, the ski areas pay a lot of unemployment insurance, but yes, other businesses are subsidizing the unemployment payments routinely made to seasonal ski area employees who collect.


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## mister moose (Oct 28, 2010)

threecy said:


> Well, the ski areas pay a lot of unemployment insurance, but yes, *other businesses are subsidizing the unemployment payments routinely made to seasonal ski area employees who collect*.



What do you base this on?


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## roark (Oct 28, 2010)

Experience Rated Unemployment Insurance is actuarially sound.


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## Highway Star (Oct 28, 2010)

They are deleting posts off the killington blog about the storm and attempted opening........lol.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30721&start=0


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## AdironRider (Oct 28, 2010)

There is no subsidy for unemployment. It is all paid by the company you work for. 

Seasonal resorts pay insane amounts of unemployment insurance. I know most of the places around Jackson encourage their employees to use unemployment. Since they pay so much, they at least want their employees to use it.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 28, 2010)

mister moose said:


> What do you base this on?



I would guess this to be true, but all companies "subsidize" other companies in terms of unemployment benefits.  Not sure about now, but in the past I think unemployment insurance has run pretty effectively....which is saying something considering the gov administers it.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 28, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> There is no subsidy for unemployment. It is all paid by the company you work for.
> 
> Seasonal resorts pay insane amounts of unemployment insurance. I know most of the places around Jackson encourage their employees to use unemployment. Since they pay so much, they at least want their employees to use it.



I don't think it's all paid by the company you work for.  Unemployment insurance that every company pays is basically pooled together so when the time is needed the unemployed can be covered.  So each company that is not laying people off is in a sense subsidizing another company.  Granted I think it's safe to say that each company paying into this will at some point have an employee or many employees use such insurance.


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## mondeo (Oct 28, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I don't think it's all paid by the company you work for. Unemployment insurance that every company pays is basically pooled together so when the time is needed the unemployed can be covered. So each company that is not laying people off is in a sense subsidizing another company. Granted I think it's safe to say that each company paying into this will at some point have an employee or many employees use such insurance.


Unemployment is largely state run, and can vary a bit from state to state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_compensation#United_States


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 28, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Unemployment is largely state run, and can vary a bit from state to state:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_compensation#United_States



I understand it is state run, but I was just pointing out that the company that a person works for does not singularly pay for your unemployment, all companies contribute, although I guess if you worked for a company for 15 or 20 years and you were the only person to be laid of during that time you could look at it like your company paid for you.  As for it being state run, that is true, but like right now the feds are pumping a large amount of money into states Unemployment funds.


----------



## riverc0il (Oct 28, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Unemployment is largely state run, and *can vary a bit from state to state*:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_compensation#United_States


This. You can not apply blanket statements to the entire ski industry regarding unemployment. Every state plays it differently. Seasonal workers in some states can collect (especially those with high tourism) whereas they can not in other states if they are hired temp. Etc.


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## riverc0il (Oct 28, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> They are deleting posts off the killington blog about the storm and attempted opening........lol.
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30721&start=0



:-o:-o:-o

No blog posts from Sept 15 until today. Oops???


----------



## mister moose (Oct 28, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I understand it is state run, but I was just pointing out that the company that a person works for does not singularly pay for your unemployment, all companies contribute, although I guess if you worked for a company for 15 or 20 years and you were the only person to be laid of during that time you could look at it like your company paid for you.  As for it being state run, that is true, but like right now the feds are pumping a large amount of money into states Unemployment funds.



In CT, unemployment is run as a zero sum game.  Your premiums are based directly on your company's claim history, and secondarily that of your industry.  Over several years your premiums are adjusted to pay for ALL the claims made by your employees.  If you run your company such that you have a lot of turnover, or have high amounts of seasonal help, your unemployment rates will be very high, high enough to cover those costs.  There is zero subsidy.  Financial strength for the system is provided by the government, but it is not some magic pool of money.  I would guess most if not all states are run like that, but I can only speak for CT.

Because the feds decreed that the standard benefit period would be extended, the feds are funding it.  That is a different case, and hopefuly one that won't need to be repeated.


----------



## mondeo (Oct 28, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I understand it is state run, but I was just pointing out that the company that a person works for does not singularly pay for your unemployment, all companies contribute, although I guess if you worked for a company for 15 or 20 years and you were the only person to be laid of during that time you could look at it like your company paid for you. As for it being state run, that is true, but like right now the feds are pumping a large amount of money into states Unemployment funds.


Others sort of got to it, but I was more talking about the rules for contributions and payouts changing from state to state, not who actually handles the money. I'm not well versed in it, but my understanding is it varies quite a bit.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 28, 2010)

mister moose said:


> In CT, unemployment is run as a zero sum game.  Your premiums are based directly on your company's claim history, and secondarily that of your industry.  Over several years your premiums are adjusted to pay for ALL the claims made by your employees.  If you run your company such that you have a lot of turnover, or have high amounts of seasonal help, your unemployment rates will be very high, high enough to cover those costs.  There is zero subsidy.  Financial strength for the system is provided by the government, but it is not some magic pool of money.  I would guess most if not all states are run like that, but I can only speak for CT.
> 
> Because the feds decreed that the standard benefit period would be extended, the feds are funding it.  That is a different case, and hopefuly one that won't need to be repeated.



Magic pool of money, who said that?


----------



## mondeo (Oct 28, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Magic pool of money, who said that?


I'm not sure, but I want one.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 28, 2010)

This is turning into a lame politics thread.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes, yes it did.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 29, 2010)

Back on track!!


----------



## drjeff (Oct 29, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Back on track!!



So should we expect another SR "stealth attack" within the next 24 hours??


----------



## mondeo (Oct 29, 2010)

drjeff said:


> So should we expect another SR "stealth attack" within the next 24 hours??


 Well, they only have 16 hours of very marginal production, so I'm guessing no. Killington's getting into a really good window of snow production, no reason for them not to be the first to open for good.

Of course, no reason not to do something doesn't mean they'll do it.


----------



## threecy (Oct 29, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> This. You can not apply blanket statements to the entire ski industry regarding unemployment. Every state plays it differently. Seasonal workers in some states can collect (especially those with high tourism) whereas they can not in other states if they are hired temp. Etc.



Offhand, I'm not aware of any state in New England ski country that wouldn't allow the hypothetical employee being discussed, a full-time seasonal maintenance worker employed September-April, to collect after the ski season.  Even in midwestern states, such as Michigan, this holds true.


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## threecy (Oct 29, 2010)

So, Sunday River operated two upper mountain trails for two full days when Killington did not.  Both areas are essentially starting from scratch as of today.  There have been over 730 posts in this thread and maybe 2 Sunday River skier visits this season?


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## Highway Star (Oct 29, 2010)

threecy said:


> So, Sunday River operated two upper mountain trails for two full days when Killington did not. Both areas are essentially starting from scratch as of today. There have been over 730 posts in this thread and maybe 2 Sunday River skier visits this season?


 
This is the 2nd longest thread on this forum and the 4th most viewed.

Obviously, opening in October doesn't matter to anyone.......


----------



## drjeff (Oct 29, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Well, they only have 16 hours of very marginal production, so I'm guessing no. Killington's getting into a really good window of snow production, no reason for them not to be the first to open for good.
> 
> Of course, no reason not to do something doesn't mean they'll do it.



But, as we've heard SR trumpeting this past week or so, they only need 19 hours last time, and that was starting from bare ground.  And based on the pics from yesterday, they still have some of last weeks snowmaking efforts on the ground.  

Meanwhile, what I'm expecting to hear from my Mount Snow folks, snowmaking wise with respect to the weather, is the fanguns will be fired up this week,  likely just a small jib park by next weekend(unless they get 3 days of 24/7 snowmaking to let them open from the top + Carinthia), and then daily operations commencing Friday the 12th if the weather pattern holds/is "November normal",  and i'm fine with that


----------



## drjeff (Oct 29, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> This is the 2nd longest thread on this forum and the 4th most viewed.
> 
> Obviously, opening in October doesn't matter to anyone.......



Or WAY to many of us need to get a life   :lol:  :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## threecy (Oct 29, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> This is the 2nd longest thread on this forum and the 4th most viewed.
> 
> Obviously, opening in October doesn't matter to anyone.......



I'd suggest that the first area to open and stay open wins.

While there may be some "buzz" (which I think is overrated in many cases), there's also a negative component to it - anyone who knew Sunday River was open and inquires now will find out they were washed out.  One thing areas look to capitalize on is the ability to sustain through bad weather events.  This is a reputation areas have been fighting for, dating back to the 30s - to be the area that is still skiable after rain, ice, etc.  In Vermont, for instance, Okemo was able to capitalize on that after years of steady snowmaking improvements.  While they were never the first to open, nor the last to close, they were able to present a decent product just about every day.


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## Vortex (Oct 29, 2010)

threecy said:


> So, Sunday River operated two upper mountain trails for two full days when Killington did not.  Both areas are essentially starting from scratch as of today.  There have been over 730 posts in this thread and maybe 2 Sunday River skier visits this season?




Not 100 on the Hil last Sat.   Sunday had a good crowd.  Got to agree with highwaystar. It does matter to some.....  The mountains and the diehards.

Average skier maybe not, but its in thier mind earlier.  Kind of what marketing is.

I bought passes and a Condo and moved my family furthur north mostly due to the length of Season.  Value.  Early Season sells well at ski shows.  Sell passes.

This will all end when a few places are open, but free marketing dollars at this point.

edit i saw your post threecy.  I see your point I don't agree with it.  You are not the market they are after.  I win I skied.  Waiting would not have been as fun.  I think those who skied think it matters.


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## mondeo (Oct 29, 2010)

drjeff said:


> But, as we've heard SR trumpeting this past week or so, they only need 19 hours last time, and that was starting from bare ground. And based on the pics from yesterday, they still have some of last weeks snowmaking efforts on the ground.


It was a better production window, though. This one's higher humidity, not quite as cold.


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## threecy (Oct 29, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Not 100 on the Hil last Sat.   Sunday had a good crowd.  Got to agree with highwaystar. It does matter to some.....  The mountains and the diehards.



By my sentence, I meant 'out of 730+ posts, 2 skier visits (?) were derived from posters.


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 29, 2010)

threecy said:


> By my sentence, I meant 'out of 730+ posts, 2 skier visits (?) were derived from posters.



Just don't bet him on it.


----------



## Vortex (Oct 29, 2010)

I'll just give you the money so this will go away.  Really don't care.  Do you want it to still go to Mhs or you?  top to bottom mid station, does not matter in 2 weeks 5 or six places will be open and we will be talking about snow depths not who is open.


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## Geoff (Oct 29, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Not 100 on the Hil last Sat.   Sunday had a good crowd.  Got to agree with highwaystar. It does matter to some.....  The mountains and the diehards.
> 
> Average skier maybe not, but its in thier mid earlier.  Kind of what marketing is.
> 
> ...



Back in the early 1980's, I picked Killington as my place to do a share house and season pass in large part due to the extended season and snowmaking reputation.   In those days, I rarely skied in October since my share house didn't open until November 1 and I rarely skied in May because my share house closed the last weekend in April.   I had skied Stowe in college so I was well aware that I had better midwinter options.   The problem is that farther north in Vermont is awful when there's a snow drought.   I'd experienced some bad snow years when I was at UVM so I understood how bad it can be.

As the years went on, I figured out that April into May was Killington's best product.   You can see what happened when POWDR showed up and announced a November 15th opening and an April 15th closing.   An awful lot of season pass base that didn't own property in town vanished and took their day ticket friends with them.   They ripped a full month of use out of their traditional share house market that has always had a 6 month lease.   Other mountains offered a better perceived value.   Same season length.   Better midwinter skiing surface.   Lower prices.

Does anybody here question the value of the free marketing and advertising Sunday River got by opening first?   It sells season passes.   It gets people to drive up midwinter because Sunday River is the happenin' place.   Preston Smith understood that which is why first to open was alway part of the Killington hype machine.


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## Vortex (Oct 29, 2010)

threecy said:


> By my sentence, I meant 'out of 730+ posts, 2 skier visits (?) were derived from posters.




I guess i miissed that in  the post.  I have always liked your posts.  I do not always agree, but like another view point.   Snowmonster, Maineskier, thaller1, terry, me Riverskier, ga2ski were there they may have dropped in on the thread


----------



## snoseek (Oct 29, 2010)

#8 checking in. Length of season and mountain managment is the primary reason I bought my silver pass. There is no way I would drop 650 dollars on a pass if I knew the mountain wouldn't deliver!


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## Vortex (Oct 29, 2010)

snoseek said:


> #8 checking in. Length of season and mountain managment is the primary reason I bought my silver pass. There is no way I would drop 650 dollars on a pass if I knew the mountain wouldn't deliver!



add snowseek to the list. just not use to seeing him around yet.  :razz:


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 29, 2010)

Bob R said:


> I'll just give you the money so this will go away.  Really don't care.  Do you want it to still go to Mhs or you?  top to bottom mid station, does not matter in 2 weeks 5 or six places will be open and we will be talking about snow depths not who is open.



No money involved. Bottle of grey goose. Nobody won yet.


----------



## jerryg (Oct 29, 2010)

I would have been #9 had I not been on the fall end of our biannual visit to see the Mouse. When I booked the week in question, I hedged that SR wouldn't have the luck they did last year and to a degree, I was right. I didn't factor in the Boyne commitment, though, and As we were boarding our plane, the emails were coming in about SR's opening. LOL.


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## jerryg (Oct 29, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> No money involved. Bottle of grey goose. Nobody won yet.



Could this mean that someone is about to win? 

Killingtonmtn:   
"Be the first to know when we're opening for the 2010-11 season! Text KILLINGTON SNOW to 71297."

While I follow the K twitter feed, I'm not going to text the number.


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## threecy (Oct 29, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Snowmonster, Maineskier, thaller1, terry, me Riverskier, ga2ski were there they may have dropped in on the thread



I stand corrected on that point!


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## Vortex (Oct 29, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> No money involved. Bottle of grey goose. Nobody won yet.




For the sake of fairness what ever the bet is, was or will be in your view, no bull shit.:razz: I am in and just tell me when I win or lose.


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## gmcunni (Oct 29, 2010)

threecy said:


> I'd suggest that the first area to open and stay open wins.



does this logic apply to closing dates as well?  When the rains come in late season  and a mountain closes for a few days to drain  or for mid-week operations when the crowds disappear that would signal the end of their season. anything after that would be like an encore.


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## mondeo (Oct 29, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> does this logic apply to closing dates as well? When the rains come in late season and a mountain closes for a few days to drain or for mid-week operations when the crowds disappear that would signal the end of their season. anything after that would be like an encore.


What about when 2knees goes to Magic mid-January and breaks the lift again? Does that count as the closing or the opening?


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## St. Bear (Oct 29, 2010)

Just got this e-mail from Mountain Creek.  Now they they are no longer owned by Intrawest, they have a partnership with Killington.



> Hey Friends!
> 
> Our friends at Killington have already been hit with their first two snow storms of the season, have fired their guns up and are getting ready for the start of the season.  Opening Day might be just days away… To celebrate we’re giving 5 lucky Mountain Creek Season Pass holders an early-season weekend Getaway to Killington, Vermont.  To enter all you have to do is buy your Mountain Creek All Access Passes in the 5-PAK by 11:59PM on Sunday October 31st.


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## Highway Star (Oct 31, 2010)

Killington is making snow again all day, per skippy on kzone.  Guns set up down bunnybuster.  Hopefully top to bottom by this weekend???


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## Geoff (Oct 31, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Killington is making snow again all day, per skippy on kzone.  Guns set up down bunnybuster.  Hopefully top to bottom by this weekend???



I just hope they don't do "manage by spreadsheet" once again and decide that they're going to use the walkway rather than blow snow to the bottom.


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## mondeo (Oct 31, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I just hope they don't do "manage by spreadsheet" once again and decide that they're going to use the walkway rather than blow snow to the bottom.


I'd rather have a little walking and get twice as much terrain. None of it's going to be interesting anyways, might as well get variety of boring and use the walkway for something. And a good park in the mix would be nice.


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## Geoff (Oct 31, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'd rather have a little walking and get twice as much terrain. None of it's going to be interesting anyways, might as well get variety of boring and use the walkway for something. And a good park in the mix would be nice.



The Glades trail pod only has two trails plus the Great Northern wrap-around.   What "twice as much terrain" are you talking about?


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## mondeo (Oct 31, 2010)

Geoff said:


> The Glades trail pod only has two trails plus the Great Northern wrap-around. What "twice as much terrain" are you talking about?


If they ran the POMA and had everything accessible from the POMA and NRT open, and not have to worry about wasting capacity on lower Bunny, given that some of it will melt anyways. Just going for the fastest expansion route here, given the first decent run they open is Downdraft or Cascade and that doesn't come until after Ramshead.

Not that it would make any more sense to them or the majority of skiers, just to me.


----------



## skiingsnow (Oct 31, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I just hope they don't do "manage by spreadsheet" once again and decide that they're going to use the walkway rather than blow snow to the bottom.



Have you seen the forecast? Like you said very uncertain, but now talking about INCHES of rain Thursday through Saturday with temps in the 50s... Currently snowmaking window closes Wed morning and that's at 3569'. Calling for basically the same at 2598', but no snowmaking for a while Tuesday afternoon. 36hrs +/- at the base starting tonight right before warm and very rainy weather without snowmaking till Sat night for a short while sounds pretty sketchy. All of course if the current forecast remains the same, but the nws says that the models are converging on this solution. . . 

They built the walkway so if the bottom melts out they can stay open up top, with the bottom currently looking like it would melt out if they made snow there I would guess that they will not make any down low. They said they would start out in Northridge and expand to Upper Snowdon and I would expect with this bad forecast that they will stick with this plan. Maybe they are looking at a different forecast though, or hoping things turn around again...

I would have expected top to bottom by the weekend with a good forecast, despite their plan to keep the skiing up high, but not now with the warm and rain that is forecasted, I don't expect it. . .


----------



## bigbob (Oct 31, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Have you seen the forecast? Like you said very uncertain, but now talking about INCHES of rain Thursday through Saturday with temps in the 50s... Currently snowmaking window closes Wed morning and that's at 3569'. Calling for basically the same at 2598', but no snowmaking for a while Tuesday afternoon. 36hrs +/- at the base starting tonight right before warm and very rainy weather without snowmaking till Sat night for a short while sounds pretty sketchy. All of course if the current forecast remains the same, but the nws says that the models are converging on this solution. . .
> 
> They built the walkway so if the bottom melts out they can stay open up top, with the bottom currently looking like it would melt out if they made snow there I would guess that they will not make any down low. They said they would start out in Northridge and expand to Upper Snowdon and I would expect with this bad forecast that they will stick with this plan. Maybe they are looking at a different forecast though, or hoping things turn around again...
> 
> I would have expected top to bottom by the weekend with a good forecast, despite their plan to keep the skiing up high, but not now with the warm and rain that is forecasted, I don't expect it. . .



Thursday is still a long ways off for accurate forecasts Skippy. Things could change for the better by then!


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## skiingsnow (Oct 31, 2010)

bigbob said:


> Thursday is still a long ways off for accurate forecasts Skippy. Things could change for the better by then!



My name is Chris, not skippy. Of course the forecast can and will change, but the snowmaking weather for down low is here now and will be here for a short time and they must decide today what they are going to do. Based on todays forecast for later in the week it would make no sense to make snow down low.


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## Highway Star (Nov 1, 2010)

Bump.  Is Sunday River opening tomorrow?


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## Edd (Nov 1, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.  Is Sunday River opening tomorrow?



Good question.  Their website shows them blowing top to bottom.


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## Vortex (Nov 1, 2010)

Tomorrow will be K's Day.  SR posted a couple of places recently, still working on weekend operation plans.  The bone to the faithful is the goal of top to bottom for the weekend.  Nice effort.

Dacry has a couple of pretty classy posts on it.


----------



## Riverskier (Nov 1, 2010)

Edd said:


> Good question.  Their website shows them blowing top to bottom.



I am sure they could, but I doubt they will. They already won the race to be first to open, and it doesn't make much sense financially to spin the lift for the few people that would show up. My guess is that they re-open this weekend for the season.


----------



## mondeo (Nov 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> If they ran the POMA and had everything accessible from the POMA and NRT open, and not have to worry about wasting capacity on lower Bunny, given that some of it will melt anyways. Just going for the fastest expansion route here, given the first decent run they open is Downdraft or Cascade and that doesn't come until after Ramshead.
> 
> Not that it would make any more sense to them or the majority of skiers, just to me.


Trail report shows snowmaking on Upper Bunny and Killink. Interesting...


----------



## Highway Star (Nov 1, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Trail report shows snowmaking on Upper Bunny and Killink. Interesting...


 
They should easily be open top to bottom for the weekend.


----------



## jerryg (Nov 1, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> They should easily be open top to bottom for the weekend.



The same could have been said a couple weeks ago, for opening period, but alas, just angry posts from Tom. I think it's great that K is opening and you should be pleased with what you have opening tomorrow. T2B will be tough for them with the runout.


----------



## mondeo (Nov 1, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> They should easily be open top to bottom for the weekend.


I'm guessing that'll depend on which way the incoming weather tracks, looks like it's gotten decently cold again; had it stayed with highs in the upper 40s, maybe not. But the activity on upper Snowdon seems to indicate they at least want to get the POMA up and running, even if they can't get T2B (or choose to hedge bets,) which is encouraging. If they don't start blowing lower Bunny tomorrow, with the weather later in the week not all that conducive to making snow at lower altitudes, I'm guessing it'll still be walkway use on Saturday. Maybe T2B Sunday. I'm fine with that if it means less snowmaking waste and more terrain sooner.


----------



## bigbob (Nov 1, 2010)

Do you think the Poma will be open to all or just the racers?


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## Newpylong (Nov 1, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.  Is Sunday River opening tomorrow?



Not a shot. Dead as hell during the week.


----------



## mondeo (Nov 1, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Not a shot. Dead as hell during the week.


Hmmm...
So if Killington stays open and SR doesn't reopen til Saturday, and Killington closes on the same day as Sugarloaf, the Killington season will be 1 day longer than the Boyne season. SR reopens Friday, same length.

Please note the ifs. Just noting possibilites here.


----------



## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2010)

And note the two different mountains involved, and one just happens to be five hours from anywhere. 

Those are facts though, not ifs. Insert stir pot emoticon.


----------



## Vortex (Nov 2, 2010)

Have fun out there today.  Both resorts or organizations have many things to keep thier base customers happy.  Enjoy it and make turns.  The Loaf being so far away is part of what makes it so good. You have to want to go. The competion is what has allowed early  season turns again.  Mt snow deserves some credit too. They do everything they can and always a positive message sent.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 2, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Hmmm...
> So if Killington stays open and SR doesn't reopen til Saturday, and Killington closes on the same day as Sugarloaf, the Killington season will be 1 day longer than the Boyne season. SR reopens Friday, same length.
> 
> Please note the ifs. Just noting possibilites here.



And why is this important?


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 2, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> And note the two different mountains involved, and one just happens to be five hours from anywhere.
> 
> Those are facts though, not ifs. Insert stir pot emoticon.



For many it is not 5 hours away.....every ski resort is 5 hours away for somebody.

Plus 5 hours drive time for many helps keep the trash to the south out............oh shit, I live south of there now...dammit.  :wink:


----------



## drjeff (Nov 2, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Hmmm...
> So if Killington stays open and SR doesn't reopen til Saturday, and Killington closes on the same day as Sugarloaf, the Killington season will be 1 day longer than the Boyne season. SR reopens Friday, same length.
> 
> Please note the ifs. Just noting possibilites here.



If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around, does it make a noise?? .......... Who cares


----------



## Vortex (Nov 2, 2010)

All the words coming from boyne I have heard are to have one of the longest seasons.  I think they were very happy to open first, but the message and plan has remained the same for the last four years. Open as early as possible with weekends until mid November then go to full operations.

Darcy posted it on the opening report we are trying to race to get open for our pass holders.  ( not exact but close)They know they can be beat by other places.  They just do what they can.  We all know it.

K will get more mid week day skiers this time of year.  Sr just won't get that, but its pretty obvious people will come out for the weekends.

 If the River can open mid week they do that the first week so all can get the jones out and opening on the books, then go to the operation plan that is consistant.  Oct to May sells well.  They are going to be the only ones who can say that again in the East. Great at ski show and on brocures.  

I think both patrons have something to smile about.  You will be hard pressed to find many people at the River upset. Maybe a few bronze pass holders, but that is it.  Ticket prices have been competitive early season as well.  

K will be the first with non stop operations.  

Both have something to market.


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 2, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> And note the two different mountains involved, and one just happens to be five hours from anywhere.
> 
> Those are facts though, not ifs. Insert stir pot emoticon.



5 hours, are you riding a 10 speed? It's 3:30 hours from Boston to SR and it's 2:45 from Boston Killington. 

Stop trolling.


----------



## Riverskier (Nov 2, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Hmmm...
> So if Killington stays open and SR doesn't reopen til Saturday, and Killington closes on the same day as Sugarloaf, the Killington season will be 1 day longer than the Boyne season. SR reopens Friday, same length.
> 
> Please note the ifs. Just noting possibilites here.



Who cares.

As BobR stated, Boyne has had the same plan and stuck to it ever since they bought the Maine mountains. Open Sunday River as soon as possible and operate on weekends through mid November. Most (you can NEVER please everyone) passholders, myself included, are very happy with this and you won't hear many complaints. The fact is, Killington may be trying to compete with Boyne for early openings, but I don't think Boyne is trying to compete with Killington. Same with late season, I suspect they will keep with their plan of keeping the loaf open until the first weekend in May, despite what the competition does. This too has been consistent since they bought the Maine mountains.


----------



## mondeo (Nov 2, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Who cares.


Mostly just those interested in trivia, but also Bostonites that value length of season with their pass?

There's been a lot made of the shortening of the Killington season, and how they used to always have the longest in the East. For the last seveal years, the Boyne pass has had a 2-3 weeks on Killington. If the ifs are fulfilled, it would mark a partial reversal of that trend. For people in Boston on the fence between the two passes, a couple years of this could make the difference for Killington.


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## Geoff (Nov 2, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> The fact is, Killington may be trying to compete with Boyne for early openings, but I don't think Boyne is trying to compete with Killington.



Don't kid yourself.  Boyne competes against Killington.   When ASC owned it all, they were happy to push the Boston market to Sunday River since they had the spare capacity there.   For most Bostonians, Killington is closer than Sunday River.   Killington gets 100+" more natural snow.   There are some compelling advantages and Killington, properly run and properly marketed, could reclaim a lot of that lost market share.   Those incremental day tickets you sell are pure profit since your fixed costs to blow snow and spin the lifts don't change.   Boyne will try to out-do Killington whenever they can to keep their market share.


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## snowmonster (Nov 2, 2010)

Length of season = getting more value for your money on cost of pass divided by the number of days skied on the pass basis. 

K and SR are just about the same driving distance from my home in the outskirts of Boston. The potential of skiing in October and late April/early May on the same pass tipped it in favor of SR. Not to mention my perception that SR's owners seemed willing to go the distance to make that long season happen.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2010)

snowmonster said:


> Length of season = getting more value for your money on cost of pass divided by the number of days skied on the pass basis.
> 
> .



The reality is, especially for many of the non AZ snow sliding sports ravenous crowd, that for the majority of season pass holders, as long as the mountain they have a pass from is open by Thanksgiving and stays open through mid-late March (maybe Easter if it falls in early April that year), then they're happy.

The other trend that seems to be happening more and more these days, is those "fringe" season pass holding devotees, especially in the spring, seem to find lift served not as popular as hike to.  And while having hundreds of folks hiking Tucks in late April/early May is a cool thing for the sport overall,  in a weird sort of way it's not a good thing interms of getting more and more ski area GM's to make the descision to spin the lifts deeper into the spring season, when the customer base you're looking to market to is already quite small, and the line between operating at a profit or a loss is much smaller.  

It's the age old descision that GM's have to make about how much financial risk/reward are they willing to take with respect to how much extra costs they want to incur to do so??


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## snowmonster (Nov 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Don't kid yourself.  Boyne competes against Killington.   When ASC owned it all, they were happy to push the Boston market to Sunday River since they had the spare capacity there.   For most Bostonians, Killington is closer than Sunday River.   Killington gets 100+" more natural snow.   There are some compelling advantages and Killington, properly run and properly marketed, could reclaim a lot of that lost market share.   Those incremental day tickets you sell are pure profit since your fixed costs to blow snow and spin the lifts don't change.   Boyne will try to out-do Killington whenever they can to keep their market share.



Competition is good. This was just on the Sunday River FB page:

"Want to hear something exciting? 130 guns blasting Right Stuff, Ecstasy, Jungle Road, Rocking Chair, Jungle Road, Rocking Chair, Agony, Lower Arm, The Punches, and T2. Cue "Beautiful Day" by U2, please. This weekend looks to be a good one!"

Does SR compete with Killington? Do the Red Sox compete with the Yankees?


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## Riverskier (Nov 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Don't kid yourself.  Boyne competes against Killington.   When ASC owned it all, they were happy to push the Boston market to Sunday River since they had the spare capacity there.   For most Bostonians, Killington is closer than Sunday River.   Killington gets 100+" more natural snow.   There are some compelling advantages and Killington, properly run and properly marketed, could reclaim a lot of that lost market share.   Those incremental day tickets you sell are pure profit since your fixed costs to blow snow and spin the lifts don't change.   Boyne will try to out-do Killington whenever they can to keep their market share.



Of course Sunday River competes with Killington! I would never suggest otherwise. My comment was specifically referring to early openings. Sunday River has had a plan and has stuck to it, both this year when Killington is making a push to open, and in past years when they were content to open in mid November. My point was simply that in the case of early season, it seems Killington is trying to open earlier to compete with Sunday River and not vice versa. Sunday River has continually opened early even without competition, and it has clearly been part of their marketing plan from the start. Basically, in my opinion Boyne's approach to season length is pro-active and Killington's is reactive.


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## Vortex (Nov 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Don't kid yourself.  Boyne competes against Killington.   When ASC owned it all, they were happy to push the Boston market to Sunday River since they had the spare capacity there.   For most Bostonians, Killington is closer than Sunday River.   Killington gets 100+" more natural snow.   There are some compelling advantages and Killington, properly run and properly marketed, could reclaim a lot of that lost market share.   Those incremental day tickets you sell are pure profit since your fixed costs to blow snow and spin the lifts don't change.   Boyne will try to out-do Killington whenever they can to keep their market share.




Geoff I think Riverskiers' point it the River wants to open asap, but knows K can win the race if they want. 

 So the goal is to get open as soon a possbile. If they beat K great, but some things they can't control.  (elevation) Is there Competion....Yes on many Levels.

I think the Boston day skier ticket buying market goes to Nh more than Maine . The Boyne v Killington battle really shows up in pass sales an value.
edit Riverskier beat me to it.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 2, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> 5 hours, are you riding a 10 speed? It's 3:30 hours from Boston to SR and it's 2:45 from Boston Killington.
> 
> Stop trolling.



Hahaha, and don't forget the 300,000 people that make up the greater metro area (mini metro) that make up Portland, they have just a 1.5-2.0 drive.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Don't kid yourself.  Boyne competes against Killington.   When ASC owned it all, they were happy to push the Boston market to Sunday River since they had the spare capacity there.   For most Bostonians, Killington is closer than Sunday River.   Killington gets 100+" more natural snow.   There are some compelling advantages and Killington, properly run and properly marketed, could reclaim a lot of that lost market share.   Those incremental day tickets you sell are pure profit since your fixed costs to blow snow and spin the lifts don't change.   Boyne will try to out-do Killington whenever they can to keep their market share.



Agreed!

I will say the bragging rights for the customers at SR isn't really all that important like it is for those who call Killington home.  I don't recall the years previous to SR opening at or before Killington to many if any SR customers getting up in arms or pissed that SR wasn't opening ahead of Killington.  Followed by people threatening to pack up shop and go elsewhere.  Granted, SR has never had the length of season shortened by two or three weeks.


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## Riverskier (Nov 2, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Granted, SR has never had the length of season shortened by two or three weeks.



Not recently, but over the past 2 decades, most definitely. I remember skiing in very early October (the 10th maybe) back in 1995 or 1996. Around that same time, Sunday River had spring skiing on White Heat and stayed open well into May. Maybe even June 1st one year, but I don't recall for sure. I don't believe the drop off was anywhere near as fast as when POWDR took over Killington, but I believe ASC's last year the season ran mid November to mid April, a full 2 months shorter than their peak in the 90's.


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## jerryg (Nov 2, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Hahaha, and don't forget the 300,000 people that make up the greater metro area (mini metro) that make up Portland, they have just a 1.5-2.0 drive.



Yeah! Don't forget us. Who cares about Boston. Jeez!


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## Highway Star (Jul 13, 2011)

Bump....!

Killington is going to open before Sunday River this will be the year!!!!!


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## Riverskier (Jul 13, 2011)

Killington will blow snow in October and watch it melt, again. Sunday River will open in October and be the first in the East for the 5th year running!


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## AdironRider (Jul 13, 2011)

Although Killington did have the longest ski season last year. Opening for a day then closing is weak sauce compared to opening, then staying open. 

Im all for the open and stay open model they have running.


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## RENO (Jul 13, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Although Killington did have the longest ski season last year. Opening for a day then closing is weak sauce compared to opening, then staying open.
> 
> Im all for the open and stay open model they have running.



Not a big fan of POWDR, but Killington blew Sunday River away early season with the amount of terrain they opened and the snowmaking. SR did open before K, but like you said, it was weak and I think K could've easily beat them if they really wanted too. I don't really care about first to open anyway, only that there's plenty of terrain to spread the crowds out. I usually wait for top to bottom...


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 13, 2011)

As has been deb ated, I think if you open and then close it shouldn't count. 

Let the 2011 debate begin!

the walkway is in, and I suspect Killington will go for it this year.  maybe if they get 14" of snow this year, they won't watch it melt away and blow snow on top of it.


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## AdironRider (Jul 13, 2011)

RENO said:


> Not a big fan of POWDR, but Killington blew Sunday River away early season with the amount of terrain they opened and the snowmaking. SR did open before K, but like you said, it was weak and I think K could've easily beat them if they really wanted too. I don't really care about first to open anyway, only that there's plenty of terrain to spread the crowds out. I usually wait for top to bottom...



I made it to both opening days myself, and the River's was a joke compared to what Killington rolled out. Perfect example of how people just like to hate on Killington, when its still the best thing the East Coast has in terms of length of season.


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## Nick (Jul 13, 2011)

I've always enjoyed Killington immensely. Particularly when i was in college and season passes were $300 :lol:


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 13, 2011)

I've never been to Sunday River, so I really can't compare.  I have some friends who are going there for a week, they are older and have kids, so I willl get their comparison to Killington.


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## Terry (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> I made it to both opening days myself, and the River's was a joke compared to what Killington rolled out. Perfect example of how people just like to hate on Killington, when its still the best thing the East Coast has in terms of length of season.



If you didn't like it, stay away and it will be less crowded for those of us that enjoy early turns at the River!


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## JimG. (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> I made it to both opening days myself, and the River's was a joke compared to what Killington rolled out. Perfect example of how people just like to hate on Killington, when its still the best thing the East Coast has in terms of length of season.



Tend to agree here. No matter what K does the haters seem to have issues with it.

I didn't get to K until T-giving and that weekend was primo.

Hunter does the same thing now...they wait until they can open a large part of the mountain to skiers. They open alot later now, but the upside is that you can ski alot of the mountain first day out.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> I made it to both opening days myself, and the River's was a joke compared to what Killington rolled out. Perfect example of how people just like to hate on Killington, when its still the best thing the East Coast has in terms of length of season.



I wouldn't say the best thing in the east..... When you can ski Sunday River in October and then Sugarloaf in May on the same pass I would say that is the best thing in the east in terms of length of season. And so wouldn't a lot of Boyne pass holders. With the new spillway/skyline lift going in, I wouldn't doubt if Sugarloaf gets it crown back this coming season. There was still plenty of snow on Skidder, Kings Landing and Hayburner 2 weeks after they closed, you just couldn't get to a lift. With the New Spillway/skyline I can see Sugarloaf blowing up those three trails plus the cross cut with a lot of snow and ski till mid may.

BOYNE Resorts owns the East. Dropping millions into their resorts and resurrecting the ski industry in Maine where some, if not all, the best terrain in New England can be had. Steep snowfields, Steep Trees, Great atmosphere. cannot beat it.


Livin Laughin Loafin


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Although Killington did have the longest ski season last year. Opening for a day then closing is weak sauce compared to opening, then staying open.
> 
> Im all for the open and stay open model they have running.



I have heard this argument before and I don't understand it. I skied Oct. 23rd at SR last year and had a blast! I wasn't sitting at work Monday morning thinking that it was all a waste because they were closing mid week. Opening weekends only early helps the cost/benefit of early season operations, and if it lets me ski a few week earlier than I would otherwise, great!


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

Terry said:


> If you didn't like it, stay away and it will be less crowded for those of us that enjoy early turns at the River!



+1

After a long off season, I will take wall to wall snow on T2 any day! For people that require multiple top to bottom routes to make it worth their while, then they can simply wait, but judging by the lift lines and smiles at SR in October there are certainly others like me!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't think there's a right or a wrong way to start a season.  Whether it's opening when you can with one WROD or waiting to open up multiple terrain routes.

Whichever strategy a particular resort decides their customer is looking for is the right decision.


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> I wouldn't say the best thing in the east..... When you can ski Sunday River in October and then Sugarloaf in May on the same pass I would say that is the best thing in the east in terms of length of season. And so wouldn't a lot of Boyne pass holders. With the new spillway/skyline lift going in, I wouldn't doubt if Sugarloaf gets it crown back this coming season. There was still plenty of snow on Skidder, Kings Landing and Hayburner 2 weeks after they closed, you just couldn't get to a lift. With the New Spillway/skyline I can see Sugarloaf blowing up those three trails plus the cross cut with a lot of snow and ski till mid may.
> 
> BOYNE Resorts owns the East. Dropping millions into their resorts and resurrecting the ski industry in Maine where some, if not all, the best terrain in New England can be had. Steep snowfields, Steep Trees, Great atmosphere. cannot beat it.
> 
> ...



Comparing two mountains to one, especially when one is basically in Canada, is pretty unfair. Not saying they arent good hills, but having to travel three hours further to get to the loaf is a stretch.You might as well argue Sunday River plus flights out to Snowbird would give you the longest season. (And if you drive an SUV, a flight to SLC from Boston is not that much more expensive than driving to Sugarloaf where you would most likely still need a hotel).  

Killington is still the longest season in the East for one hill. That is the debate. 

Besides, Killington has added the walkway, new gondola, new Peak lodge, snowmaking improvements, further lift replacements to come. To say the Powdr hasnt been investing on a similar level to Boyne is a stretch as well.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Killington is still the longest season in the East for one hill. That is the debate.


 
Jay and SB beat them (at least on the spring end).  I don't recall the time difference between openings.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> I have heard this argument before and I don't understand it. I skied Oct. 23rd at SR last year and had a blast! I wasn't sitting at work Monday morning thinking that it was all a waste because they were closing mid week. Opening weekends only early helps the cost/benefit of early season operations, and if it lets me ski a few week earlier than I would otherwise, great!


 
+ 1.


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> I have heard this argument before and I don't understand it. I skied Oct. 23rd at SR last year and had a blast! I wasn't sitting at work Monday morning thinking that it was all a waste because they were closing mid week. Opening weekends only early helps the cost/benefit of early season operations, and if it lets me ski a few week earlier than I would otherwise, great!



Good for you, but clearly your just a little biased, given your name is Riverskier after all. 

Lots of people ski midweek, myself included. Im not knocking you guys for opening first, but Killington, once they did open had a better early season product, and stayed that way until winter was in full swing and everyone was pretty much equal. 

Cant comment on midseasons as I only ski the east these days early and late season once JHole closes.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Good for you, but clearly your just a little biased, given your name is Riverskier after all.
> 
> Lots of people ski midweek, myself included. Im not knocking you guys for opening first, but Killington, once they did open had a better early season product, and stayed that way until winter was in full swing and everyone was pretty much equal.
> 
> Cant comment on midseasons as I only ski the east these days early and late season once JHole closes.


 
It is true that there is something to be said for opening more of the mountain early and keeping it open.  That takes more $$$ and time.


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## Geoff (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Besides, Killington has added the walkway, new gondola, new Peak lodge, snowmaking improvements, further lift replacements to come. To say the Powdr hasnt been investing on a similar level to Boyne is a stretch as well.



New gondola?   The only change to the two gondolas under the new ownership is that they removed the kerosene heaters and battery-operated blowers.

Under the new owners, one lift has been replaced.   They've added one terrain park.   All the improvements have been invisible.   You don't notice new roof, paint, carpet, and new tables in a base lodge.   You don't notice miles of replaced snowmaking pipe.   Few notice a few fan guns and some new low E snow guns.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

a three hour drive from where? its an hour and 45 min from Sunday River to Sugarloaf... and its definitely worth the drive. You have the most acres of boundary to boundary skiing in the east and with burnt mountain opening this winter it will be epic. You have snowfields that opened in January and closed in late April. 

Killington opened November 2nd and closed May 1st.  Sugarloaf opened the weekend before thanksgiving November 21 and stayed open until May 9th but could have gone longer if they didn't have to start the construction on spillway. 

Sugarloaf is the better mountain, might not have all the gondolas and big attractions like Killington but I'm glad they don't keeps the mountain spread out and skier traffic down on the trails.  If you wanna have a full day of skiing and not do the human slalom down the trails make a trip up and see if you can handle it.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

Thread

[X] Delivers
[  ] Dijourno


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> a three hour drive from where? its an hour and 45 min from Sunday River to Sugarloaf... and its definitely worth the drive. You have the most acres of boundary to boundary skiing in the east and with burnt mountain opening this winter it will be epic. You have snowfields that opened in January and closed in late April.


 
What route do you take to get 45 minutes? 

And I agree that Sugarloaf, terrain-wise, is a better mountain than Killington. Killington was the King of the East under Pres Smith because of the snowmaking and efforts to deliver a great product for such a long season. Sugarloaf is just completely different. Big, steep, intense.  But that is my opinion.  Killington has the better scene obviously with more to do apres ski.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

"an hour and 45 min" at Sugarloaf you make your own apres.... or you go to the Rack. Sugarloaf is the best skiing experience in the east, followed closely by Saddleback... hmmm weird how they are an hour apart


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> "an hour and 45 min" at Sugarloaf you make your own apres.... or you go to the Rack. Sugarloaf is the best skiing experience in the east, followed closely by Saddleback... hmmm weird how they are an hour apart


 
Got it.  I was reading it quickly....makes sense now.


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## Geoff (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> "an hour and 45 min" at Sugarloaf you make your own apres.... or you go to the Rack. Sugarloaf is the best skiing experience in the east,



when it's not on wind hold and when the whole hill isn't wind-scoured.


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Comparing two mountains to one, especially when one is basically in Canada, is pretty unfair. Not saying they arent good hills, but having to travel three hours further to get to the loaf is a stretch.You might as well argue Sunday River plus flights out to Snowbird would give you the longest season. (And if you drive an SUV, a flight to SLC from Boston is not that much more expensive than driving to Sugarloaf where you would most likely still need a hotel).



This statement is just plain false. Sugarloaf is only an hour further than Sunday River from points South, and about 4 hours from Boston.


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## Highway Star (Jul 14, 2011)

Geoff said:


> All the improvements have been invisible.


 
Most of the lifts look much better than 5 years ago.  Paint helps alot.  Lol.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> Most of the lifts look much better than 5 years ago. Paint helps alot. Lol.


 
Jokes aside I agree that the facilities do look a lot better than when ASC had them.  It is not appealing to be paying money for a "top" ski resort experience and then riding lifts that are rusting and look like crap and using shopworn facilities.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

Geoff said:


> when it's not on wind hold and when the whole hill isn't wind-scoured.



I only had 2 days all last season where it wasn't packed powder, and that was reggae festival. other then that I had powder, packed powder or spring corn. I used my Icelantic nomads all year if that tells you what the conditions were like at the loaf. floated all season long. in the trees, on the snow fields and in the bumps. 

April 9th; the backside 

TOKE ROAD mid Feb


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Good for you, but clearly your just a little biased, given your name is Riverskier after all.
> 
> Lots of people ski midweek, myself included. Im not knocking you guys for opening first, but Killington, once they did open had a better early season product, and stayed that way until winter was in full swing and everyone was pretty much equal.
> 
> Cant comment on midseasons as I only ski the east these days early and late season once JHole closes.



Biased in some respects maybe, but not this one. I want to ski as early as possible, period. Like I said, if operating weekends only makes skiing earlier in the season feasible, then great! If they determined that Mondays and Tuesdays were the days to do it because the open terrain couldn't handle weekend demand, then I would take a day off and be there. This is just a perfect example of how you can NEVER please everyone.


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## Glenn (Jul 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Thread
> 
> [X] Delivers
> [  ] Dijourno



:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

Yeah, the wind is a problem at Sugarloaf, as well as Jay and Sugarbush to be honest.  But I think that Boyne is working on trying to make the lifts more wind resistant.


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## Geoff (Jul 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, the wind is a problem at Sugarloaf, as well as Jay and Sugarbush to be honest.  But I think that Boyne is working on trying to make the lifts more wind resistant.



It's an advantage sprawling places like Killington and Sunday River have.   No matter how hard it's howling, you can usually find a place to ski that is out of the worst of the wind.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

Geoff said:


> It's an advantage sprawling places like Killington and Sunday River have. No matter how hard it's howling, you can usually find a place to ski that is out of the worst of the wind.


 
True indeed.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

Thats why they invented surface lifts  sugarloaf used to have a bunch of them now they only have t#3 and the moosecalator lol they need one to get to the summit. and they should have t#3 extend to spillway cross cut so you can still access the east side without a hike.


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> a three hour drive from where? its an hour and 45 min from Sunday River to Sugarloaf... and its definitely worth the drive. You have the most acres of boundary to boundary skiing in the east and with burnt mountain opening this winter it will be epic. You have snowfields that opened in January and closed in late April.
> 
> Killington opened November 2nd and closed May 1st.  Sugarloaf opened the weekend before thanksgiving November 21 and stayed open until May 9th but could have gone longer if they didn't have to start the construction on spillway.
> 
> Sugarloaf is the better mountain, might not have all the gondolas and big attractions like Killington but I'm glad they don't keeps the mountain spread out and skier traffic down on the trails.  If you wanna have a full day of skiing and not do the human slalom down the trails make a trip up and see if you can handle it.



Relax bro, noones dissing the terrain. Boundary to boundary is a joke though in the East and everyone knows it. 90% of terrain within those boundaries that isnt already a trail is not skiable. Your spewing BS if you think you can, or youve hacked through the woods to make your own secret stash. Sugarloaf is not Jay Peak where that statement could apply, but theyve done lots of manual labor to make that statement true. 

What I do take issue with is everyone claims Boyne is better but they have to lump the pros of two mountains together, and convieniently leave out the cons. Comparing two hills against one is an unfair comparison, period. Sunday river does not have sustained vert, Loaf is far from anywhere and the lifts are old. Still two great hills, but using them both as a comparison against Killington is a joke. I can drive from Killington to Sunday River in a shorter time frame than I could probably get from the Riv to the Loaf. 

Sugarloaf is 4 hours from Boston? Talk about untrue, maybe if you drive 90 the whole way. Its 4.5 from my house in Exeter, but I do realize they have done some roadwork in the past couple years which probably cuts that down a bit, but still, its a trek, and you can concievably make it to Snowbird in the same amount of time from Boston. 1/2 in the airport, 3 hour flight, 1/2 hour to Snowbird.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> I only had 2 days all last season where it wasn't packed powder, and that was reggae festival. other then that I had powder, packed powder or spring corn. I used my Icelantic nomads all year if that tells you what the conditions were like at the loaf. floated all season long. in the trees, on the snow fields and in the bumps.
> 
> April 9th; the backside
> 
> TOKE ROAD mid Feb



how many days did you have though where lifts were affected by wind?

I'd have to imagine there's at least 20 days a season where a good amount of the lifts are shut down because of wind.

Mind you, I'm not dissing the Loaf.  I like it WAY better than Killington


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> I can drive from Killington to Sunday River in a shorter time frame than I could probably get from the Riv to the Loaf.



Again, just plain wrong. Killington would take at least twice as long. You opinions on other aspects of this discussion are just that- opinions, and by nature can't neither be right or wrong. However, your assertions about where Sugarloaf is geographically and how long it takes to get there from various places are factually inaccurate.


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> how many days did you have though where lifts were affected by wind?
> 
> I'd have to imagine there's at least 20 days a season where a good amount of the lifts are shut down because of wind.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not dissing the Loaf.  I like it WAY better than Killington



I love the loaf too, but I suspect that number is actually even a lot higher than 20.


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

4 hours from Boston? 1.45 from the River. Ive made both those drives and those are not true figures either. Lets settle on something in the middle.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

your kidding about the boundary to boundary right? when have you skied Sugarloaf last. there are glades in between virtually every trail, Skidder and Hayburner, Hayburner and kings, kings and double bitter. and that's just off the Superquad. yes the lifts are old that's just because ASC dumped all its money in Killington and see where that got them. 

ya it might take you 4 and a half hours but you must be driving like a grandpa. Mapquest says 3 hours and 45 min and that is going the speed limit but honestly who does that...... I'm not saying Killington isn't a good mountain I'm just saying.... Sugarloaf is a better mountain for a true skier. If you can ski everything at Sugarloaf (woods, moguls, ice, powder, groomers, corn) then you can ski out west with out any issues....


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

1:45 from the River is accurate. I will give you 4.5 hours from Boston going the speed limit the entire way.


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> your kidding about the boundary to boundary right? when have you skied Sugarloaf last. there are glades in between virtually every trail, Skidder and Hayburner, Hayburner and kings, kings and double bitter. and that's just off the Superquad. yes the lifts are old that's just because ASC dumped all its money in Killington and see where that got them.
> 
> ya it might take you 4 and a half hours but you must be driving like a grandpa. Mapquest says 3 hours and 45 min and that is going the speed limit but honestly who does that...... I'm not saying Killington isn't a good mountain I'm just saying.... Sugarloaf is a better mountain for a true skier. If you can ski everything at Sugarloaf (woods, moguls, ice, powder, groomers, corn) then you can ski out west with out any issues....



Last time I made it to the Loaf was 3 or so years ago. I know theyve done some road work since then, which Ive already conceeded earlier, which probably saves some time. But Ive still never made it to the loaf in under 4.5 hours (be realistic here, are you not stopping for gas or a piss break?) from Exeter, and Im maybe 15 minutes max off of 95. 

Are those glades wall to wall, or a little shot through the woods? I still highly doubt the majority of that boundary to boundary figure (excluding marked runs/glades) is skiable. Nowhere on the east is like that without manual cutting and labor.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

And how does one drive from Killington to Sunday River in under 1:45?


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## AdironRider (Jul 14, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> 1:45 from the River is accurate. I will give you 4.5 hours from Boston going the speed limit the entire way.



Fair enough, this is a trivial argument anyways. I must of just gotten a bad couple days when I made the jaunts up there from the River. Its not like I do that commute regularly.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2011)

Wow...and a Killington thread gone viral but with Sunday River and Sugarloaf attached....interesting.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

yes those glades are wall to wall..... i skied them all in early april after a foot of snow... wide open treed as well as some small shoots. anything that you want can be had at sugarloaf.... and if you skied there 3 years ago jeez you have missed alot... I definately would recommend a trip this year. with the new quad and the new burnt expansion things are looking up and hopefully back to being the world class resort they once were....


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> Mapquest says 3 hours and 45 min and that is going the speed limit but honestly who does that......



http://www.mapquest.com/#ce50297a176c72b23838cfab

4:34

If you make that trip in 3:45, it's in the middle of night, no traffic, going 80 on the highway



lmgrnjeep said:


> I'm not saying Killington isn't a good mountain I'm just saying.... Sugarloaf is a better mountain for a true skier.



:lol:

I admire your enthusiasm for Sugarloaf, but guess what?  "True Skiers" also ski at the likes of Okemo and Bretton Woods.  

but don't take my word for it.  I have a pass to Gunstock for next season.


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## Riverskier (Jul 14, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Fair enough, this is a trivial argument anyways. I must of just gotten a bad couple days when I made the jaunts up there from the River. Its not like I do that commute regularly.



No doubt it is a haul. I have heard it takes about the same amount of time from Boston to get to Sugarloaf as it takes to get to Jay. From most points in Mass and Southern/Central Maine it is only an hour further than Sunday River, but once your at Sunday River there is no real quick/direct way to get there, thus the 1:45.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

let me think skiers...hmmm  Bode Miller, Kristen Clark.....ooo sorry ill even throw boarders in the mix.... Seth Wescott ring a bell.....


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep?  Are you a local at Sugarloaf?

If so, I hope you stick around the boards for the winter time and keep us updated with pics and conditions reports from the Loaf.   

There are a ton of members here who love the Loaf, but don't get their nearly often enough.   The past two years we've held a weekend outing up there with 25 plus folks and it's been a blast.  We'll be doing it again next spring.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

Im not a local there but i ski there 50-60 days a year would ski more if i could get weekdays off  next year maybe.  Parents have a place up there so.... try to ski as much as possible. I have been coming to this board for the past 2 or 3 years just reading the post.... finally decided to give some of my thoughts.... i have some pics and videos from last season and next year will have a lot more... getting into video editing. I usually ski alone so only have pov stuff.... but next year ill have to meet up with you guys if you come up here... i saw you guys had a great time this year....


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

Im a Loafer, not really a big fan of "Someday Bigger" but I like how it keeps a lot more people there then up at the loaf  more snow for me  I only go to SR "The Hills" in October and November to get by legs under me for when the mountain opens.


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## RENO (Jul 14, 2011)

Gotta love a thread gone ugly! :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

SUITE!!!

as in, do your parents have an extra one for me to crash at at the loaf?  :lol:


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

doubtful... just taught my girlfriend how to ski last year and this year gonna teach her 3 and 5 year old.... they are absolutely obsessed with the mountain already (my doing) and they wanna get on ski's this year so gonna spend a lot of time with the "family" but obv ill be getting out to Brackett and beyond. I just got a new job at a local community college and will be managing all the courses in the Farmington area so hope for a lot of "Snow Days" during the week


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## Geoff (Jul 14, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> And how does one drive from Killington to Sunday River in under 1:45?



It takes me 3:15.   East-West in northern New England is brutal.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

ya the infrastructure in Maine is awful i will say that.... but is a good thing for us Mainers  keeps the lift lines down and the snow in tip top shape.  but they are redoing the S-Turns on your way to the loaf btw  they got brutal this year... and they redid all of 27 last summer and that is in great shape so the drive up is actually smooth and you can enjoy the scenery in stead of dodging pot holes.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> doubtful... just taught my girlfriend how to ski last year and this year gonna teach her 3 and 5 year old.... they are absolutely obsessed with the mountain already (my doing) and they wanna get on ski's this year so gonna spend a lot of time with the "family" but obv ill be getting out to Brackett and beyond. I just got a new job at a local community college and will be managing all the courses in the Farmington area so hope for a lot of "Snow Days" during the week



very cool

I too was lucky growing up as my parents had a ski home.  Though it was at Okemo, would have much preferred it was at Sugarloaf, but I'm not complaining.

I will complain that they retired, sold the place and moved to Florida.  :smash:


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> Thats why they invented surface lifts  sugarloaf used to have a bunch of them now they only have t#3 and the moosecalator lol they need one to get to the summit. and they should have t#3 extend to spillway cross cut so you can still access the east side without a hike.



T-bar saved our butts on the AZ Summit this year. There was a fair amount of traversing (which really only sucks for snowboarders) but we had access to everything except the summit. Could have hiked that too, but who wants to be up there when the wind is blowing that hard.


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## Highway Star (Jul 14, 2011)

Stowe is best in the east, way better than Sugarloaf.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.mapquest.com/#ce50297a176c72b23838cfab
> 
> 4:34
> 
> If you make that trip in 3:45, it's in the middle of night, no traffic, going 80 on the highway



It's a 4 hr trip if you don't get snagged up in Friday traffic at the Hampton tolls. You have to take 295 through Portland since it cuts 15 mins off the ride to Augusta compared to staying on the Maine pike. And saves a buck or two.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

Stowe is definitely my favorite in the East.  Best combination of terrain and natural snow


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> Stowe is best in the east, way better than Sugarloaf.



For trees, steeps. and out of bounds terrain, yes. Just talking about trails, it's probably a wash.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> It's a 4 hr trip if you don't get snagged up in Friday traffic at the Hampton tolls. You have to take 295 through Portland since it cuts 15 mins off the ride to Augusta compared to staying on the Maine pike. And saves a buck or two.



Hampton tolls are a breeze these days.  It's route 1 that's a sh$t show from 3-6:30.  I deal with it 3 days a week commuting home from Boston


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

ya the need another tbar going to the summit. once they extend timberline chair down to bullwinkles in the next 2 years. and destroy/demolish the gondola building.  then i would say but a tbar  between tote road ext. and Narrow Gauge extension. going to a lift house where the gondola building was. if spillway/skyline is as wind resistand as they say then this tbar would work great.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> ya the need another tbar going to the summit. once they extend timberline chair down to bullwinkles in the next 2 years. and destroy/demolish the gondola building.  then i would say but a tbar  between tote road ext. and Narrow Gauge extension. going to a lift house where the gondola building was. if spillway/skyline is as wind resistand as they say then this tbar would work great.



Timberline used to be a t-bar. It's too bad they took it out.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> For trees, steeps. and out of bounds terrain, yes. Just talking about trails, it's probably a wash.



I'd put Sugarloaf way above Stowe when it comes to just trails.  For that, Stowe probably isn't even in the top 5 for me.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Timberline used to be a t-bar. It's too bad they took it out.



They whole mountain was tbars... i never saw it but I have seen so many pictures and maps... if it was still like that or if they made the lifts low like timberline then there would be no wind hold issues..... 

I also head that Kingpine will be getting replaced by a... HIGH SPEED QUAD....  just Rumors now... but could be true....


----------



## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> They whole mountain was tbars... i never saw it but I have seen so many pictures and maps... if it was still like that or if they made the lifts low like timberline then there would be no wind hold issues.....



I remember those days. But you can't have a functioning ski area with all those surface lifts anymore. People want their highspeed lifts. It would have been nice if they left the t-bar in where misery whip is and hadn't screwed up widow maker.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> I remember those days. But you can't have a functioning ski area with all those surface lifts anymore. People want their highspeed lifts. It would have been nice if they left the t-bar in where misery whip is and hadn't screwed up widow maker.



what do you mean by screwed up widowmaker?


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> what do you mean by screwed up widowmaker?



It used to live up to it's name. It was narrow, twisty, and had a huge dip/drop-off that people would fly off the lip of, but you had to be ready or not jump too far because there was a little uphill section at the bottom of it. They filled that in or blasted it out at some point in the late 80's/early 90's.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

kind of like they did with "Narrow Gauge" I used to be scared going down the headwall now that they flattened it out or blasted it it is like any other trail... wide and boring... I would rather go down comp hill then gauge...


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## wa-loaf (Jul 14, 2011)

lmgrnjeep said:


> kind of like they did with "Narrow Gauge" I used to be scared going down the headwall now that they flattened it out or blasted it it is like any other trail... wide and boring... I would rather go down comp hill then gauge...



Yeah, they keep making that one a little tamer every year. At least there are few old school trails left and well you really can't complain about all the glades. Those were virtually non-existent 20 (even 10) years ago.


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## lmgrnjeep (Jul 14, 2011)

Ya. I started skiing glades 3 seasons ago and every since then I've been hooked. and glades got me into skiing more moguls now i love them all... you will rarely see me on a groomer during my ski day. I'm either on the front face (powder Keg, Ignitor, Bubblecuffer) The backside. or in the woods.... next year is gonna be a little different with teaching the little ones but I will get mine when I can....  I also love skiing west mountain/bucksaw area. peaceful and gets me to practice skiing switch


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## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2011)

This is going to be the year Killington opens first!!!


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## skiersleft (Sep 23, 2011)

Highway Star said:


> This is going to be the year Killington opens first!!!



Do you really believe this? And, if so, why?


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## mlkrgr (Sep 25, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> how many days did you have though where lifts were affected by wind?
> 
> I'd have to imagine there's at least 20 days a season where a good amount of the lifts are shut down because of wind.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not dissing the Loaf.  I like it WAY better than Killington



In its own way; I have to say there are days that I am thankful that there is a gondola at Killington; mainly on those bitterly cold days. Any other day that's good enough to be fully suited up in ski gear and not get cold even if I'm out there bell to bell is a day I don't care there's a gondola and it makes for a good place to eat lunch too. Sugarloaf is much more prone to wind though. But the distance makes a difference. There's no way a day tripper bus can get there and back to Boston in one day. That's why there's really not all that many buses that go to Sugarloaf; lower traffic=better snow=worse lift infrastructure and vice versa; It's all a tradeoff. True; there's days in which a lift breaks at the loaf (or goes on windhold) and you got a big line that results. There's some days I can choose two or rarely three different buses that are going to the same ski resort in one day; I end up picking the lowest bidder which is almost always Nacski which works for me. Jay Peak is a stretch to go to at that; it took a bus 3.5 hours each way to do that and its 10 minutes longer than Sunday River from Boston. But yes; Brackett Basin and all the goodies at Sugarloaf is something I'd wish I could experience more often; but $$ and time/distance doesn't make it happen that much; its hard to resist $71 a day all in including gas, lift ticket, and parking fee when it can be more expensive otherwise; plus I can cherrypick my days I go better. The only time I get to beat that is when I make my yearly trip to Wildcat. But I wouldn't be surprised if the buses go up with the year over year increase in gas prices (although this is at least narrowing and should continue in the coming weeks) and lift tickets are already starting to go up a bit; full priced adult lift ticket at Jay Peak will be $75; and everything else is pretty much a $6 increase across the board although incremental days remain the same so multiday tickets only have a $6 increase.

So yes; when you get down to the nitty gritty without regard to $$ or other external factors and just by judging the quality of the mountain; if its 15 degrees or less, I'd rather be at K; if its more, I'd rather be at the Loaf.


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## Vortex (Sep 26, 2011)

What is this thead about?  I just hope we have lift seviced by the end of October.  Can't wait to get out. My gear has been ready for a month.


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## Terry (Sep 26, 2011)

Bob R said:


> What is this thead about?  I just hope we have lift seviced by the end of October.  Can't wait to get out. My gear has been ready for a month.



Me too. Been ready for turns since mid May!


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Do you really believe this? And, if so, why?



What the hell is this, an essay exam?


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## skiersleft (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> What the hell is this, an essay exam?



What the hell is this, an essay exam?


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> What the hell is this, an essay exam?



*How to Get On and Off a Chairlift *

Before you get on the chairlift, make sure that you have all your equipment - poles, gloves, goggles, and hat. Make sure you lift ticket is visible.

Wait in the loading area, until it's your turn to board the chairlift. Hold both poles in one hand. Watch over your shoulder for the next chairlift to come. Sit on the chairlift just like you were sitting in a chair, use your free hand, if necessary, for balance and to hold on.

Keep your ski tips pointed up as the chairlift moves up.

Hope this is helpful. You are welcome.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> *How to Get On and Off a Chairlift *
> 
> Before you get on the chairlift, make sure that you have all your equipment - poles, gloves, goggles, and hat. Make sure you lift ticket is visible.
> 
> ...


 
So what does this have to do with Killington or Sunday River opening first?  :blink:


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## skiersleft (Sep 26, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> So what does this have to do with Killington or Sunday River opening first?  :blink:



Nothing. But that's usually what happens when BP posts something. It's not related at all with the topic. It's obviously part of his charm.


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> So what does this have to do with Killington or Sunday River opening first?  :blink:



Some folks new to the sport might welcome a little brush up on safely loading a lift. It's coming quickly.

Consider it a public service announcement.


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

skiersleft said:


> Nothing. But that's usually what happens when BP posts something. It's not related at all with the topic. It's obviously part of his charm.



Plenty. Please read the post in its entirety. It'll do you good.:razz:


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## skiersleft (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Plenty. Please read the post in its entirety. It'll do you good.:razz:



Junior's ghost?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Some folks new to the sport might welcome a little brush up on safely loading a lift. It's coming quickly.
> 
> Consider it a public service announcement.


 
Wrong thread. :wink:

I think that Killington is trying to get something going with the attention from Irene, so an early opening would get them more press.  Plus the walkway is now in place.  But Sunday River has a track record to defend and is ready to go.  It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## Black Phantom (Sep 26, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> Wrong thread. :wink:
> 
> I think that Killington is trying to get something going with the attention from Irene, so an early opening would get them more press.  Plus the walkway is now in place.  But Sunday River has a track record to defend and is ready to go.  It will be interesting to see what happens.



Don't worry. Killington will not open early. Mid-November. Too much work to do.

Sundown North will open before them.


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## Highway Star (Oct 27, 2011)

This is the year, I can feel it!!!


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## Highway Star (Oct 1, 2012)

Bump!!! I sense a repeat of last season!!!


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## Nick (Oct 1, 2012)

Wow, same thread title and everything. Hey, this one went 23 pages, think we can match it?


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## Highway Star (Sep 25, 2013)

Bump!  It's that time of year again!!!  I bet they will be open sooner than you think!!!


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## canobie#1 (Sep 26, 2013)

Killington>>>>>>>>>sunday river


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## ScottySkis (Sep 26, 2013)

Maybe Platty will beat everyone.


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## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2013)

Bump!!!!  Its looking good for Friday!!!


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## Edd (Oct 21, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> Killington>>>>>>>>>sunday river



From the SR website:

"The guns have been tested and now we wait…

The good news is that the wait shouldn’t be long, with most forecasts calling for COLD weather rolling in here shortly. Although patience has never been our strong suit, if it means potential snowmaking, we can certainly try and be on our best behavior until then."


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## Highway Star (Oct 22, 2013)

Sunday River is laaame.....


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## Edd (Oct 22, 2013)

Highway Star said:


> Sunday River is laaame.....



Haaaaay, you take that back...zzzzzz


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 22, 2013)

This needs to be here...


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## Riverskier (Oct 22, 2013)

It has been pointed out many times, but I still think it is funny how it is the K skiers that worry about their mountain being first. I think many SR skiers share my sentiment that I really don't care. I am just happy to know that SR will fire up the guns and open as soon as possible. If K beats them, who cares! Perhaps SR's marketing department, who knows, but it certainly isn't a concern of mine.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Killington Conditions Report:

"Tuesday, October 22, 2013
4:57 p.m. 10/21/13-- What’s that sound?  Still cheers from the Red Sox victory? Never mind, that’s the sweet,  sweet sound of KILLINGTON SNOWMAKERS doing what they do best.

That’s  right, the snow guns are locked and loaded! We’ll be making snow  whenever Ma Nature permits – that means we’re building our season’s  base, starting with any and every open window of low temps this week.

We  know you’d like to hear about that magic Opening Day, and we’ll let you  know as soon as we do – expect a weekend outlook on Thursday.

In the meantime, get your gear tuned. It’s game time."


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## Edd (Oct 22, 2013)

Riverskier said:


> It has been pointed out many times, but I still think it is funny how it is the K skiers that worry about their mountain being first. I think many SR skiers share my sentiment that I really don't care. I am just happy to know that SR will fire up the guns and open as soon as possible. If K beats them, who cares! Perhaps SR's marketing department, who knows, but it certainly isn't a concern of mine.



SR skiers are just a mellow lot IMO. Also, if they're not first, they're always close. Very aggressive snowmaking is a simple fact of life for them. They have very little to prove at this point.


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## MadPatSki (Oct 22, 2013)

Killington or Sunday River...I don't care, unless one of them is not open to the general public.

Kmart regulars, is there talk to limit access to pass and card holders only for the first weekend like last October?

Mont St-Sauveur is also looking to blow snow this week. They don't have the high altitude advantage, but they have opened in October in the past.


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## Domeskier (Oct 22, 2013)

When will either of these areas be worth skiing?  Mid December?  Earlier?  My season generally doesn't start until I am certain that there will be at least one decent bump run.


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## MadPatSki (Oct 22, 2013)

Domeskier said:


> When will either of these areas be worth skiing?  Mid December?  Earlier?  My season generally doesn't start until I am certain that there will be at least one decent bump run.



It is all a matter of taste. I always prefer skiing late in the season (April, May) than early (October, November), but if you want to ski year-round, you need to get your October turns in.  

Early = dark, cold, WROD, hard conditions, crowded, few ski deals
Late = bright, warm, soft conditions, deserted, many ski deals to be found


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## Domeskier (Oct 22, 2013)

MadPatSki said:


> It is all a matter of taste. I always prefer skiing late in the season (April, May) than early (October, November)



Yeah, there is definitely an asymmetry between my idea of when an area becomes worth skiing and when it ceases to be worth skiing.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 22, 2013)

killinton

A weather "window" is shaping up for *snowmaking production *on  the upper mountain this week!  We ran the system over the weekend and  are ready to go.  Tonight dips into the high 20's so we'll certainly try  to get 2014 going.  Forecasted low temps get better as the week goes on  and am so confident I'll be skiing by weeks end, I put the skis in the  shop today for the tune and told the peak construction workers to put  ear plugs in.  Here we go!
Jeff Temple


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## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2013)

Word on the street is opening this weekend, maybe Friday for passholders.  Sunday river can eat it.


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## Nick (Oct 23, 2013)

It's offiical, Friday for passholders. http://www.alpinezone.com/news-and-...ast-skiing-friday-oct-25-season-pass-holders/


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

I predict Woodbury will come out of left field and open first


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## Nick (Oct 23, 2013)

Happened last year too, right? I think.


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## drjeff (Oct 23, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> I predict Woodbury will come out of left field and open first



With forcasted lows for their town only at 31/32 with a decent amount of humidity in the air in CT now, I don't think the "Woodbury stealth attack" will happen this year.

Might Sunday River try a soft opening at say 3:30 tomorrow??  That seems like it has a touch more of a chance...


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## dlague (Oct 23, 2013)

I never really understood the hatred towards specific ski areas!  Well I kind of do but not to the extreme where it is like a team sport.  Killington vs Sunday River is like Red Sox vs Yankees or something!

I have skied all over New England and have skied at just about every ski area.  Are there tihings I like or do not like about specific resorts well absolutely, but not to the point where I hate on a resort.  We always start our ski season at Killington since it is closer (1.5 hours) and they open in late October to early November.  If Sunday River opened before Killington - well great for them.  Not like it has never happened.  It is fun to see who it will be and anticipate the start of the season, but for the most part I am just eager to get out there!


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## ScottySkis (Oct 23, 2013)

Calling all weather people even one who may not be a forecaster for great online snow prediction just want to know what long range forecast is for Killington into weekend after Halloween? As much as I want to ski now I rather wait for more open before I drive that far so if weather is looking good for snow making all next week with no warm up or rai* I probably wait just curious thanks ?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 23, 2013)

dlague said:


> I never really understood the hatred towards specific ski areas!  Well I kind of do but not to the extreme where it is like a team sport.  Killington vs Sunday River is like Red Sox vs Yankees or something!



It's a one way street

Sunday River skiers don't care if they're mountain is the first to open.  They just want the mountain to open early as possible and offer a long season.

Sugarloaf skiers don't care if they're mountain is considered bigger than Killington.  I swear some Killington skiers want the Pico Interconnect to happen just so they can unequivocally say that their mountain is the biggest in the East.

Every mountain has it's fan boys, but none beat the drummer louder than Killington fan boys.  Everywhere else skiers want their mountain to do well as a business, Killington skiers long for the days of one million skier visits and it was a mad house.  :blink:  I don't get it.  I want where I ski to be popular enough, but not TOO popular.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a one way street
> 
> Sunday River skiers don't care if they're mountain is the first to open.  They just want the mountain to open early as possible and offer a long season.
> 
> ...



Up +1 I that is how I feel about my favorite hill in the Catskills.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a one way street
> 
> Sunday River skiers don't care if they're mountain is the first to open.  They just want the mountain to open early as possible and offer a long season.
> 
> ...


Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I haven't heard any drums beating or glamoring for long lift lines.

Quite the opposite actually.

You & I ourselves are two examples of those against an inter-connect & village.

I think we're in the majority so where you came up with your observations I don't know.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Sounds like sour grapes to me.
> 
> I haven't heard any drums beating or glamoring for long lift lines.
> 
> ...



Sour grapes?  How so?  What am I upset about from my post?

and regards to my observation....

If you haven't seen for years on many skiing internet forums how important it is for Killington skiers that their mountain is the first to open, have the longest season and be reveled as the biggest, baddest ski area in the East (you know, the whole beast campaign); I might suggest a pair of reading glasses.   Hell, the topic of this annually revived thread is that Killington would "*BEAT"* Sunday River as the first to open...........


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## steamboat1 (Oct 24, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Sour grapes?  How so?  What am I upset about from my post?
> 
> and regards to my observation....
> 
> If you haven't seen for years on many skiing internet forums how important it is for Killington skiers that their mountain is the first to open, have the longest season and be reveled as the biggest, baddest ski area in the East (you know, the whole beast campaign); I might suggest a pair of reading glasses.   Hell, the topic of this annually revived thread is that Killington would "*BEAT"* Sunday River as the first to open...........



Calm down. You seem to be the only one who cares.


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## skiadikt (Oct 24, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a one way street
> 
> Sunday River skiers don't care if they're mountain is the first to open.  They just want the mountain to open early as possible and offer a long season.
> 
> ...



this killington "fan boy" phenomenon as you call it is recent. prior to last season there was no ski area that more flamed, more trashed, more complained about than killington on AZ. it was so bad you had complainers complaining about the complainers ... now the new management has turned things around and the complainers (myself included) and flamers are cheering the new direction. that's all. opening first and longest season were killington trademarks for 30 yrs until they lost their way. the fact that they're once again committed to those things is something for the faithful to cheer about. don't think anyone wants a return to the million+ days but folks do, as you say, want the mountain to thrive as a business. win, win, win ...


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## Smellytele (Oct 24, 2013)

I agree with DHS but I am not going to write multiple paragraphs on it.

Do I enjoy that areas open early? yes
Do I ski Killington early season? yes the only time I ski it
Would I rather ski other places? Yes
Does the mentality of some Killington skiers rub me the wrong way? yes some seem to have to continuously boost their own egos
Are most Killington skiers fine? Yes


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## Highway Star (Oct 24, 2013)

Killington opens first again, told you so!!!!


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## Highway Star (Oct 24, 2013)

dlague said:


> I never really understood the hatred towards specific ski areas!



Oh, I don't hate sunday river, I'm just pointing out that they're lame.


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## Highway Star (Oct 24, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Sugarloaf skiers don't care if they're mountain is considered bigger than Killington.  I swear some Killington skiers want the Pico Interconnect to happen just so they can unequivocally say that their mountain is the biggest in the East.



Clearly.  It is quite annoying BS that sugarloaf cleared some previously out of bounds hike to terrain and now claims to be the biggest.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2013)

I rest my case


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## ScottySkis (Oct 24, 2013)

Highway Star said:


> Clearly.  It is quite annoying BS that sugarloaf cleared some previously out of bounds hike to terrain and now claims to be the biggest.



I been to Sugarloaf once when I was a teen. I had a season pass to K for ine year several years ago both had lots of great stuff. K wins in natural snow. Sugarloaf wins in real vertical not what is drawn on a map and no one does. If I could pick one to ski and only one for rest of my life it be the Loaf. But that is what is great is no reason to have to pick one as the greatest. I just happy to have these great hills not to far from home, maybe having to sleep in the car.


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## Smellytele (Oct 25, 2013)

Scotty said:


> But that is what is great there is no reason to have to pick one as the greatest. I just happy to have these great hills not to far from home, maybe having to sleep in the car.



+1


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## Highway Star (Sep 19, 2014)

Just a little reminder for folks:

_*Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.*_


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## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2014)

Yup.

And Sunday River will offer top to bottom skiing without walking before Killington does.


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2014)

A sure sign Summer is over!

The yearly discussion begins.


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## Vortex (Sep 19, 2014)

They did make snow  again last night. It looks like then went  part way down lower Punch too.   They have some new pumps and other hardware I think they are making sure all works.   Kind of cool when you think about it.  They will have fired up the guns in all 4 seasons.


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## yeggous (Sep 19, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup.
> 
> And Sunday River will offer top to bottom skiing without walking before Killington does.



And Bretton Woods will offer top to bottom before both of them... And with a detachable quad to boot.


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## machski (Sep 19, 2014)

yeggous said:


> And Bretton Woods will offer top to bottom before both of them... And with a detachable quad to boot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



What, on big Ben and Bethlehem Express?  Not TTB of a peak and quite boring.


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## dlague (Sep 19, 2014)

machski said:


> What, on big Ben and Bethlehem Express?  Not TTB of a peak and quite boring.



Isn't everything kinda boring at that stage of the game?  Not to speak for yeggous but at least you do not have to hike steps!


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## yeggous (Sep 19, 2014)

dlague said:


> Isn't everything kinda boring at that stage of the game?  Not to speak for yeggous but at least you do not have to hike steps!



Last year they opened top-to-bottom on Rangeview with the Zephyr Quad on October 30. They quickly moved the guns over to Crawford's Blaze after that. When did Killington open to the bottom? I recall it being weeks later.


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## dmw (Sep 19, 2014)

I've only done it once, but I'm surprised at people's complaints of the stairs (not just here but when I was at K). I was expecting much worse from the way people talked about it. I went around day 5 of the season last year and it was surprisingly worth it to me.


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## Tin (Sep 19, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Last year they opened top-to-bottom on Rangeview with the Zephyr Quad on October 30. They quickly moved the guns over to Crawford's Blaze after that. When did Killington open to the bottom? I recall it being weeks later.



End of the first week of November. But they also opened Superstar Headwall and SkyeHawk and Skyelark open within a day or two of going top to bottom of K1. Screw North Ridge, blow on Double Dipper and open Canyon Quad.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 19, 2014)

Tin said:


> End of the first week of November. But they also opened Superstar Headwall and SkyeHawk and Skyelark open within a day or two of going top to bottom of K1. Screw North Ridge, blow on Double Dipper and open Canyon Quad.



I would like to see them focus on superstar as the early season offering.  It has northern exposure, and they commit to blowing snow on it already.  If they are going to run the gondola, then they could run the HSQ instead.   


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## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I would like to see them focus on superstar as the early season offering.  It has northern exposure, and they commit to blowing snow on it already.  If they are going to run the gondola, then they could run the HSQ instead.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think it's an elevation issue.  A lot of the terrain on K-1 and North Ridge is higher up than SS IIRC.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it's an elevation issue.  A lot of the terrain on K-1 and North Ridge is higher up than SS IIRC.



Without question, the north ridge has elevation.  But I believe the K1 base is still in the neighborhood of 2500 feet, while the Locke midstation is 2k.  So in theory, that levels the playing field.   I realize that Sunday River is further north, but I doubt it's meaningfully colder.  


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## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Without question, the north ridge has elevation.  But I believe the K1 base is still in the neighborhood of 2500 feet, while the Locke midstation is 2k.  So in theory, that levels the playing field.   I realize that Sunday River is further north, but I doubt it's meaningfully colder.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I was responding to your idea about Superstar being the early season offering at K.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 19, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I was responding to your idea about Superstar being the early season offering at K.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Sorry. A bit of a non-sequitur....   I was just thinking that both Killington and Sunday River open around the same time.  So if Sunday River can make snow at 2k feet and up, then Killington could in theory make snow at an elevation of 2500 feet and higher.  Not trying to be confusing...  Sorry!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2014)

The elevation of North Ridge makes a big difference early season at K.  The difference in water content in the snow from up top down to the bottom is quite noticeable during marginal fall temps.  

I also think their strategy with burying North Ridge is also to make sure they have at least something to ski during Thanksgiving weekend if there's a bad warm up.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 19, 2014)

I definitely get it.  North ridge base is appx. 3500 feet, so that makes a meaningful difference.  I guess I would like to see a better offering like superstar - I would certainly make more early season visits.  It was much better back in the day when they had the peak double with the mid-station.  Upper downdraft was a great early/late season run.  


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## yeggous (Sep 19, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Sorry. A bit of a non-sequitur....   I was just thinking that both Killington and Sunday River open around the same time.  So if Sunday River can make snow at 2k feet and up, then Killington could in theory make snow at an elevation of 2500 feet and higher.  Not trying to be confusing...  Sorry!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There is a big difference in latitude too. Killington is a whole lot further south.


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## Nick (Sep 19, 2014)

JimG. said:


> A sure sign Summer is over!
> 
> The yearly discussion begins.



+1


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## thetrailboss (Sep 19, 2014)

When I skied Killington I thought that the North Ridge offering was ideal early season--a decent pod of relatively moderate pitched terrain that is great for early season skiers and riders that are out of shape from the summer. The lift can be an issue though when it gets crowded. 


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 19, 2014)

yeggous said:


> There is a big difference in latitude too. Killington is a whole lot further south.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Understood.  I don't think it's a huge factor.  And I think the additional elevation at Killington somewhat offsets it's more southern location.  


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## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2014)

I definitely agree with you on wishing there was a better early season trail.  I'm not sure Superstar is the answer due to it's pitch more so than it's elevation.  I agree the North Ridge trail offering sucks compared to the old days off the K Double.  

I usually start my season at Sunday River because T2 is a better trail than anything off North Ridge.  They also seem to get Upper and Lower Sunday Punch going very quickly after the season starts.


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## machski (Sep 19, 2014)

I skied early season off the old K double.  Honestly, except for the easier access back down, I don't think the mid station gave any better terrain than the North Ridge pod.  The stairs are not all that bad, good pre season fitness!!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 19, 2014)

To each their own, but IMO Upper Cascade is a far better trail than Rime.  Longer, more vertical, better pitch.  I commend K for putting the stairwell and going for it early season though.  End of the day, I think everyone would rather have the K1 over the old double.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> End of the day, I think everyone would rather have the K1 over the old double.


I think you would be incorrect.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

You think most people would rather a 15 minute long double chair ride with mid-station over an 8 minute gondola ride?

...........ya, no.

Killington ain't Smuggs


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You think most people would rather a 15 minute long double chair ride with mid-station over an 8 minute gondola ride?
> 
> ...........ya, no.
> 
> Killington ain't Smuggs


You said everyone not most people. In an ideal world they'd have this HSQ mid-station..


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

I'm not going to get into why a mid-station HSQ wouldn't work for that lift even though it's completely obvious with today's Killington.

No one (except for an idiot) misses the old 15 minute K double over the K1 Gondola outside of how great that chair was for early and late season skiing purposes.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not going to get into why a mid-station HSQ wouldn't work for that lift even though it's completely obvious with today's Killington.
> 
> No one (except for an idiot) misses the old 15 minute K double over the K1 Gondola outside of how great that chair was for early and late season skiing purposes.


I guess you just called me an idiot. Truce over & it's not because of anything I said. I'll call you out on every dip-shit remark you make from now on (believe me you make plenty).


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I guess you just called me an idiot. Truce over & it's not because of anything I said. I'll call you out on every dip-shit remark you make from now on (believe me you make plenty).




Quoted for posterity.  Troll away steamboat because that's what seems to give you great pleasure regarding me.  I know you can't help yourself.  I'll stand by my prior suggestion.  Let's just not converse.  You're the one who engaged me here, not the opposite.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> To each their own, but IMO Upper Cascade is a far better trail than Rime.  Longer, more vertical, better pitch.  I commend K for putting the stairwell and going for it early season though.  End of the day, I think everyone would rather have the K1 over the old double.



Agree. The stairwell is a good thing for early season, but it sounds like it doesn't have broad appeal, so I wonder if they are losing many skier visits? 

I would have preferred a HSQ instead of the gondola.  I would ski off the peak more often.




steamboat1 said:


> You said everyone not most people. In an ideal world they'd have this HSQ mid-station..



I wondered if there was such a thing as a HSQ mid station....

One of these days I would like to ride on a lift with you two.  I'd want to be on the side though, just in case it got ugly...! 


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## marcski (Sep 20, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Agree. The stairwell is a good thing for early season, but it sounds like it doesn't have broad appeal, so I wonder if they are losing many skier visits?
> 
> I would have preferred a HSQ instead of the gondola.  I would ski off the peak more often.
> 
> ...



Yes, there is.  Alta's Collins lift is a HSQ with a mid-station.


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## joshua segal (Sep 20, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Just a little reminder for folks:
> 
> _*Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.*_



Just curious: Is your statement based on history or inside information.  Just because they can hasn't always meant that they did!

Aside: The metric I hear is on average: 1000' per 3 degrees; 100 miles north per 3 degrees. Anyone know a different metric?


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## joshua segal (Sep 20, 2014)

Re HSQ mid-station: The only one I know of in the east is at Le Massif.  Are there others?


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## WWF-VT (Sep 20, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Agree. The stairwell is a good thing for early season, but it sounds like it doesn't have broad appeal, so I wonder if they are losing many skier visits?



I doubt they lose many skier visits because of a stairwell that you take once or twice a day when Killington is the only open mountain.


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## JimG. (Sep 20, 2014)

I liked the old double chair myself. The download was always fun especially if there was still some Fall color.

The terrain was better too, but not by much. The North Ridge pod is better once they open Lower East Fall.

Not like I'm going to miss out on going as early as possible either way.


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## dlague (Sep 20, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> I doubt they lose many skier visits because of a stairwell that you take once or twice a day when Killington is the only open mountain.



We have skied early season with only the north ridge triple running besides the gondola that gets you up there.  The steps are really not that bad and the vibe is really good but I do not find the offering to be anything great since there are a wide range of skiing abilities that crowd short trails. Especially the two trails that go directly to the lift.  The lift line kind of sucks too.  I have wait he 20-30 minutes in line.  Call me impatient but by waiting for a week or two I have a little better time.

If you goal is to get out first then that offering is great been there done that - I am over it.  To those who do it , have fun!  I may be there.

Who opens first is no big deal IMO.  Many banter as if arguing over which team is better - pretty funny! Once the second mountain opens and then the third, who opens first is forgotten for the most part!


.......


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## Edd (Sep 20, 2014)

marcski said:


> Yes, there is.  Alta's Collins lift is a HSQ with a mid-station.



Snowmass has one for a six pack, as well.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I would have preferred a HSQ instead of the gondola.  I would ski off the peak more often.


Same here. I just don't like riding in the box. You can almost get to everything on the mountain without riding the box. The only time you need to get to the peak is if you want to ski upper catwalk, upper downdraft,  upper cascade, upper escapade or helter skelter which are all relatively short shots. The few other trails you miss aren't even worth mentioning, everything else is accessable without the box. On those cold windy days when everyone is lined up for the gondi I'm that guy you see riding the chairs. Call me crazy but that's what I prefer.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

marcski said:


> Yes, there is.  Alta's Collins lift is a HSQ with a mid-station.





joshua segal said:


> Re HSQ mid-station: The only one I know of in the east is at Le Massif.  Are there others?





Edd said:


> Snowmass has one for a six pack, as well.


Yeah but according to some dip shit on here they don't work.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

Someone has a problem with reading comprehension.   My statement was regarding the gondola vs the old double  chair.  Never was a HSQ part of the discussion, mid station or not.  Yes I too prefer chairs to gondolas.  However not the old double.  Now you think long and hard about what makes more sense, the current gondola or old double.  With the double you had a near 15 minute ride and a 45 minute wait for the chair.  You also had vastly longer lift lines at the Snowdon and Superstar chairs due to the reduced capacity in the area.   Throw in a very expensive investment in the Peak lodge and  a desire to have that facility available to generate revenue year round in any weather condition and it becomes pretty obvious why that old chair went away.


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## Edd (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah but according to some dip shit on here they don't work.



Wasn't he just knocking a slow ride on an old double?


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not going to get into why a mid-station HSQ wouldn't work for that lift even though it's completely obvious with today's Killington.


Did I miss something?


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

Edd said:


> Wasn't he just knocking a slow ride on an old double?


Yeah he also complains about having to drive 2 hours to get to a ski area or not being able to pick out his seat on planes. Some people just act like old wash women.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2014)

Not at first, but his comment on year round use of the peak lodge would negate a HSQ with Mid Station over a Gondi.





steamboat1 said:


> Did I miss something?


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## joshua segal (Sep 20, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> I doubt they lose many skier visits because of a stairwell that you take once or twice a day when Killington is the only open mountain.



My sense is that the early season crowd at Killington is bad news.  The stairway (about 250 steps) does keep the crowd down and provides something special for the early season diehards.  When Killington decided to go after the early season business again, I sent a compliment to management on the stairway.  The response I received was "that the stairway was one of the best investments (in terms of return on investment) that Killington had ever made."  I further heard it was about $60K worth, but that is pure hearsay.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

machski said:


> Not at first, but his comment on year round use of the peak lodge would negate a HSQ with Mid Station over a Gondi.


They make bubble chairs you know. Actually they seem to have become quite popular lately.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

Steamboat... How many 2 hour day trips do you make each season?


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Steamboat... How many 2 hour day trips do you make each season?


Actually quite a few. It takes me at least 2 hours to get to Stowe or Smuggs from our house in VT. Mt. Snow would be about the same too but I'd only go there to shorten my drive home. I've driven to Cannon, Attitash, Whiteface & Gore for day trips from our house too.


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## Highway Star (Sep 20, 2014)

joshua segal said:


> My sense is that the early season crowd at Killington is bad news.  The stairway (about 250 steps) does keep the crowd down and provides something special for the early season diehards.  When Killington decided to go after the early season business again, I sent a compliment to management on the stairway.  The response I received was "that the stairway was one of the best investments (in terms of return on investment) that Killington had ever made."  I further heard it was about $60K worth, but that is pure hearsay.



Well, consider it like building a complicated deck at 4,100 ft on the side of a mountain, so $60k sounds about right.  While I'm glad we have it, yes the crowding is pretty bad on a busy day with good weather.  The triple will operate at near full capacity, except when they have to skip chairs, so figure they do about 2,000 or more skier visits throughout a busy weekend day.  Lift lines can be 20 minutes long, less if you use the singles line.  The trails aren't too crowded, once they get multiple trails open.  Its much less crowded on weekdays, so that's the time to go if you have the option.

Their returns are probably pretty good.  The snowmaking is a bit expensive, but they only need to blow about 2-3ft of snow on those trails, which can then be opened pretty quickly and start producing revenue.  There are a surprising number of ticket buyers, many people come in from everywhere in the northeast, and there are many passholders from other areas that aren't open yet.  Some people use the two for one deal, but many don't.  Only the diehard passholders are out on the weekends, most people sit it out until they are open top to bottom or terrain expansion starts.  They have a beer garden at the triple base, and I would expect the peak lodge and KBL to be open this year.

I bring a light ski carry pack with some snacks, beverages, and shoes in it.  At the end of the day, put on the shoes and put skis and boots on the pack.  While its actually slower to do it this way, it's considerably more comfortable.


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## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2014)

Considering the length of the walkway and the fact that it is on top of a mountain, 60k seems like a steal. 

A new deck for your house will probably run 10-20k depending (not DIY), so conceivably, this was a screaming deal considering the payoff.


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## Highway Star (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> You said everyone not most people. In an ideal world they'd have this HSQ mid-station..



We've discussed the possibility of a midstation on the K-1.  Technically it could be done, but I'm guessing it would cost about $1m or more.  Probably custom engineered. Constructing something of that size halfway down cascade would be quite the challenge as there is no good access.  The footprint of it would have an impact on how cascade skis, and would need major trail regrading and possibly widening.  Would it be on the ground or up on a deck?  How it would function is debatable, would it be uphill side only, requiring going uphill first to return to the base, or both sides with added complexity?  Would it be possible to bypass the midstation, or would it be available mid season for accessing the peak when skiing the canyon without going to the base, which would add to the K-1 ride time and reduce its capacity at the base.  All things to consider. 

This would allow greatly expanded terrain options early season, as you would have cascade and downdraft available, increasing their capacity to 3-4k skier visits per day, while providing quick access to the peak lodge, both of which greatly increase revenue.  As it sits, they only do 2-3 weekends with the stairway before being open top to bottom, so there really isn't enough time to get a good payoff for such a large project.  If going forward they have problems getting top to bottom by mid-November, and are only able to open the triple for Thanksgiving weekend half the time, it may become a more viable option for providing high end destination skiing for that holiday weekend.


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## Highway Star (Sep 20, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Considering the length of the walkway and the fact that it is on top of a mountain, 60k seems like a steal.
> 
> A new deck for your house will probably run 10-20k depending (not DIY), so conceivably, this was a screaming deal considering the payoff.



Also consider there are no concrete footings (or very few), most of it sits directly on rock.  There's no fancy plastic decking either, its all pressure treated wood with grated metal stairs.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2014)

marcski said:


> Yes, there is.  Alta's Collins lift is a HSQ with a mid-station.



Yes, Alta's Collins has an angle station with a midload. Canyon's Orange Bubble has a mid unload. So it could be done if they had enough room.

And if memory serves me right the K-1 was an afterthought because Poma had made the Gondola for another resort and they cancelled. They offered it to ASC/K for a discount. 


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> We've discussed the possibility of a midstation on the K-1.  Technically it could be done, but I'm guessing it would cost about $1m or more.  Probably custom engineered. Constructing something of that size halfway down cascade would be quite the challenge as there is no good access.  The footprint of it would have an impact on how cascade skis, and would need major trail regrading and possibly widening.  Would it be on the ground or up on a deck?  How it would function is debatable, would it be uphill side only, requiring going uphill first to return to the base, or both sides with added complexity?  Would it be possible to bypass the midstation, or would it be available mid season for accessing the peak when skiing the canyon without going to the base, which would add to the K-1 ride time and reduce its capacity at the base.  All things to consider.
> 
> This would allow greatly expanded terrain options early season, as you would have cascade and downdraft available, increasing their capacity to 3-4k skier visits per day, while providing quick access to the peak lodge, both of which greatly increase revenue.  As it sits, they only do 2-3 weekends with the stairway before being open top to bottom, so there really isn't enough time to get a good payoff for such a large project.  If going forward they have problems getting top to bottom by mid-November, and are only able to open the triple for Thanksgiving weekend half the time, it may become a more viable option for providing high end destination skiing for that holiday weekend.


The only HS midstation I've seen is the one at Le Massif (pictured). It really doesn't take up much room (it's very narrow) & is on the same line as the lift anyway. I'd imagine they'd place it at the same location as the old midstation. I'm not suggesting they do it now but it's something they should have thought about when K-1 was originally installed. This would be for uploading only. If you wanted to take the lift to the bottom you'd first have to ride to the summit & then ride down.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And if memory serves me right the K-1 was an afterthought because Poma had made the Gondola for another resort and they cancelled. They offered it to ASC/K for a discount.


The Skyeship gondola went in before K-1.


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## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2014)

The only modification K1 needs is to get rid of those spectacular 80's wraps on the gondi cars with images of lasers and the like.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 20, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> We've discussed the possibility of a midstation on the K-1.  Technically it could be done, but I'm guessing it would cost about $1m or more.  Probably custom engineered. Constructing something of that size halfway down cascade would be quite the challenge as there is no good access.  The footprint of it would have an impact on how cascade skis, and would need major trail regrading and possibly widening.  Would it be on the ground or up on a deck?  How it would function is debatable, would it be uphill side only, requiring going uphill first to return to the base, or both sides with added complexity?  *Would it be possible to bypass the midstation*, or would it be available mid season for accessing the peak when skiing the canyon without going to the base, which would add to the K-1 ride time and reduce its capacity at the base.  All things to consider.
> 
> This would allow greatly expanded terrain options early season, as you would have cascade and downdraft available, increasing their capacity to 3-4k skier visits per day, while providing quick access to the peak lodge, both of which greatly increase revenue.  As it sits, they only do 2-3 weekends with the stairway before being open top to bottom, so there really isn't enough time to get a good payoff for such a large project.  If going forward they have problems getting top to bottom by mid-November, and are only able to open the triple for Thanksgiving weekend half the time, it may become a more viable option for providing high end destination skiing for that holiday weekend.




Everything you mentioned is _technically _possible. The Palmer HSQ at Timberline is a classic example, almost a minor marvel of ski lift engineering. The lift is closed in winter due to the severe, constant winds, and build up of rime. It opens up in spring, but passes o_ver_ the mid-load station. In summer, the haul rope is lowered and re-routed into the mid-load station, which is only used for glacier skiing since the glacier doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the lift. I can't see any use for a mid station at Killington other than early season. The average skier isn't going to want to off-load onto a double black. It wouldn't be that simple either since the tensioning system of the lift can only allow so much slack. And it's probably not even close to being economically feasible. But it is possible.



Said Palmer lift:

Mid-station Bypassed





Routed through mid-station


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> The Skyeship gondola went in before K-1.



Right. Skyeship was 1994; K-1 was like 1998. Not sure if that changes what I was saying....


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

Gondola midstation. Appears to be able to load/unload in both directions.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Right. Skyeship was 1994; K-1 was like 1998. Not sure if that changes what I was saying....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I don't recall ever hearing that scenario before. Not that I'm saying you're wrong.


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## dlague (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Gondola midstation. Appears to be able to load/unload in both directions.



That is correct!


.......


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## Highway Star (Sep 20, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Everything you mentioned is _technically _possible. The Palmer HSQ at Timberline is a classic example, almost a minor marvel of ski lift engineering. The lift is closed in winter due to the severe, constant winds, and build up of rime. It opens up in spring, but passes o_ver_ the mid-load station. In summer, the haul rope is lowered and re-routed into the mid-load station, which is only used for glacier skiing since the glacier doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the lift. I can't see any use for a mid station at Killington other than early season. The average skier isn't going to want to off-load onto a double black. It wouldn't be that simple either since the tensioning system of the lift can only allow so much slack. And it's probably not even close to being economically feasible. But it is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can see it at about 10:15 in this video, pretty crazy!






Then in the summer here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deEFNuVMCdA


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## thetrailboss (Sep 20, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't recall ever hearing that scenario before. Not that I'm saying you're wrong.



The original Killington Gondola ran from Rte 4 to the top. The Killington Double ran to the top as well. In '94 or so they replaced the Gondola but ended it at Skye Peak. The K-1 later replaced the Killington Double. They were two separate projects. 


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The original Killington Gondola ran from Rte 4 to the top. The Killington Double ran to the top as well. In '94 or so they replaced the Gondola but ended it at Skye Peak. The K-1 later replaced the Killington Double. They were two separate projects.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Obviously since they were 4 years apart. Please don't try to educate me about Killington. Been skiing there since the lower Snowdon poma ran up Conclusion. Just saying I"ve never heard that story before.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 20, 2014)

You know the more I think about it this set up would be perfect on K-1. Pretty similar drop off under the gondi just past the merger of Downdraft, Escapade, Cascade & Flume where the old midstation was located. They could extend the midstation out over the drop off so it wouldn't interfere to much with skier traffic on the trails in the area (similar to what's pictured). Yeah I know people poach that area after a dump but it's not a marked trail. I know it will never happen but a man can dream can't he?.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 21, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> You know the more I think about it this set up would be perfect on K-1. Pretty similar drop off under the gondi just past the merger of Downdraft, Escapade, Cascade & Flume where the old midstation was located. They could extend the midstation out over the drop off so it wouldn't interfere to much with skier traffic on the trails in the area (similar to what's pictured). Yeah I know people poach that area after a dump but it's not a marked trail. I know it will never happen but a man can dream can't he?.



I am on board with this.   Now we just need Killington to pony up. 


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I am on board with this.   Now we just need Killington to pony up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They have $182 mill in their coffers now.....


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## steamboat1 (Sep 21, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> They have $182 mill in their coffers now.....


No one knows how much debt they were carrying so how much money they actually have is questionable. I'd be happy just to get a new South Ridge chair. They seem to be more interested in investing more in summer activities (zip lines, mountain coaster etc.) than improving their lift infrastructure at this time.

On a side note I read the place was packed this weekend for the Spartan race. All the parking lots were full including the upper Snowshed lot & the access road between Snowshed & K-1. Someone said there were more people than on a busy holiday weekend during ski season.


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## Highway Star (Sep 21, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> No one knows how much debt they were carrying so how much money they actually have is questionable. I'd be happy just to get a new South Ridge chair. They seem to be more interested in investing more in summer activities (zip lines, mountain coaster etc.) than improving their lift infrastructure at this time.
> 
> On a side note I read the place was packed this weekend for the Spartan race. All the parking lots were full including the upper Snowshed lot & the access road between Snowshed & K-1. Someone said there were more people than on a busy holiday weekend during ski season.



Maybe they should start charging $150 a head and make you hike up the mountain in the winter too?


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## bobbutts (Sep 21, 2014)

Heavenly gondola has a mid-station.
http://gondolaproject.com/2014/03/26/urban-gondolas-innovative-station-designs-part-2/


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## EPB (Sep 21, 2014)

http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/ca-heavenly/gondola/gondola.htm


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## Highway Star (Sep 21, 2014)

eastern powder baby said:


> http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/ca-heavenly/gondola/gondola.htm



Owned by Vail of course.  Looks real nice.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 21, 2014)

Knowing K-Mart, I'm sure they could figure out a way to spin it into a positive marketing tool that increases visits.


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## Highway Star (Sep 21, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Heavenly gondola has a mid-station.
> http://gondolaproject.com/2014/03/26/urban-gondolas-innovative-station-designs-part-2/



Great article!  Snowshed could use one of those double loading 6-packs, and rams head too if they ever build an Interconnect.

Overall, I guess it does look like a K-1 midstation is more feasible than I thought, but I still doubt they would go for it.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 21, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Owned by Vail of course.  Looks real nice.


The Heavenly gondola was installed by ASC. Remember them?


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 21, 2014)

While they are at it, they can install a surface lift up the header trail at Rams Head, the section that has been abandoned due to the shorter Ram's Head Quad for almost the last 20 years.


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## machski (Sep 21, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> The Heavenly gondola was installed by ASC. Remember them?



Yes they did, but it was to connect the mountain directly to real estate and south lake Tahoe strip.  They invested in that to see a big $$$ return.  Its nice but you have to upload and download, no skiing directly from it.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 21, 2014)

machski said:


> Yes they did, but it was to connect the mountain directly to real estate and south lake Tahoe strip.  They invested in that to see a big $$$ return.  Its nice but you have to upload and download, no skiing directly from it.


Yes but it has a midstation. Kind of what this conversation has been about the last few pages.


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## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> While they are at it, they can install a surface lift up the header trail at Rams Head, the section that has been abandoned due to the shorter Ram's Head Quad for almost the last 20 years.



Upper Header was/is all ledge and rock, wouldn't work without mucho blasting. Not worth the price. They'll just open it up if the interconnect ever happens.


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## machski (Sep 22, 2014)

True, but the midstation at Heavenly has nothing to do with skiing.  There is a scenic outlook and a gift/snack shop there, that's it.  The midstation is a tourist attraction so not built for the same purpose we are discussing.





steamboat1 said:


> Yes but it has a midstation. Kind of what this conversation has been about the last few pages.


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## machski (Sep 22, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> Upper Header was/is all ledge and rock, wouldn't work without mucho blasting. Not worth the price. They'll just open it up if the interconnect ever happens.



My understanding is that if the Pico interconnect ever were to happen, the lift back to Killington side would go to the original summit of Ram's Head.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 22, 2014)

machski said:


> My understanding is that if the Pico interconnect ever were to happen, the lift back to Killington side would go to the original summit of Ram's Head.


I've seen a few different maps. I've seen some with 2 lifts with the return lift going to the top of Ramshead as you mention. I've also seen maps with only 1 lift going up to Pico from near Pico Pond (located between Ramshead & Pico). You could ski to the bottom of this lift from Ramshead (new trail of course). From the top of the lift you would ski back to Ramshead using the trail already cut for the sewer line. I've seen maps with a couple/few new trails cut around this/these new lift/lifts & I've seen some without any new trails except for the two interconnecting trails I mentioned. If the interconnect ever happens I have no idea what it will be like. Personally I hope the interconnect never happens.


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## Quietman (Sep 22, 2014)

The Killington-Pico Interconnect as seen in a 2001-2002 trail map


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## steamboat1 (Sep 22, 2014)

Quietman said:


> The Killington-Pico Interconnect as seen in a 2001-2002 trail map


That's one of the maps I've seen (2 lifts & new trails). There are a few others.


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## Highway Star (Sep 22, 2014)

machski said:


> My understanding is that if the Pico interconnect ever were to happen, the lift back to Killington side would go to the original summit of Ram's Head.



It will go to the ridgeline,  few hundred feet north of the summit.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 22, 2014)

...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> ...



Interconnect with one lift.  That works.


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 23, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> ...



Ha I got lost down there once. Thank god for GPS


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## Highway Star (Sep 23, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> ...



Cool map, did you draw that up?


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## Puck it (Sep 23, 2014)

Not a bad idea.  More trails could be cut too with just the one lift off of both the top of the lift and the ridge to skiers right going down to the pond.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 23, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Not a bad idea.  More trails could be cut too with just the one lift off of both the top of the lift and the ridge to skiers right going down to the pond.


Actually someone on another site suggested they just cut a few glades in that area. Sort of like a lift served Brackett Basin. I thought that was a pretty good idea. The only problem I see for any trails in that area is holding snow. I don't think it will have good exposure.


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## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> It will go to the ridgeline,  few hundred feet north of the summit.



So according to that trail map a new trail comes down onto old Upper Swirl from the top of a new lift? IE no access to the old summit?


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## steamboat1 (Sep 23, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> So according to that trail map a new trail comes down onto old Upper Swirl from the top of a new lift? IE no access to the old summit?


Vagabond used to be such a fun trail from the Ramshead summit. To bad it's now only a shadow of it's former self.


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## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2014)

Def was...


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## ScottySkis (Oct 4, 2014)

I hope they open with a few trails for T day I plan on trying to be their for a few days.


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## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2014)

Yomama....


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Just a little reminder for folks:
> 
> _*Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.*_


You're an idiot.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You're an idiot.


Maybe not. I saw the gondi running on the web cam earlier. It's possible some skied today.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

Open means open, not some private testing.  


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Open means open, not some private testing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


Well tomorrows private for season & E passes only. Does that mean Sunday River wins?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

IMHO, yes, but technically no.  But remember that the prediction was that Killington would beat SR. 


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> IMHO, yes, but technically no.  But remember that the prediction was that Killington would beat SR.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


SR can still beat K. K announced they're not opening until 11am tomorrow.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

Uh oh!

Here is my definition of "open":  Lift serviced skiing made available to purchasers of a ticket or pass that was made available to the general public at some point in time.  (e.g. A season pass would qualify)


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

Love this stuff. Next battle will be does it count if they don't stay open. Same shit different day.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Love this stuff. Next battle will be does it count if they don't stay open. Same shit different day.



Nobody has made any claims regarding staying open - just who arrives at the party first.  


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Nobody has made any claims regarding staying open - just who arrives at the party first.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



I believe SR said they will close for the rest of the week after tomorrow.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

Two resorts open tomorrow.  Nothing wrong with that.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Two resorts open tomorrow.  Nothing wrong with that.


That's not the point, we all know that & it's a good thing. The point is how many will open Tues. Personally I don't care since it will likely be a few more weeks before I start skiing anyway. Just pointing out that there has been discussion about staying open in the past & I guess since I started it there will be discussion again.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I believe SR said they will close for the rest of the week after tomorrow.



Sorry, I meant nobody on this forum made such a claim.  


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> That's not the point, we all know that & it's a good thing. The point is how many will open Tues. Personally I don't care since it will likely be a few more weeks before I start skiing anyway. Just pointing out that there has been discussion about staying open in the past & I guess since I started it there will be discussion again.



Welcome to like 2010.  That's been a perennial issue/bone for contention.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Welcome to like 2010.  That's been a perennial issue/bone for contention.


Along with who will have top to bottom first & who has the most terrain open.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Along with who will have top to bottom first & who has the most terrain open.



Exactly.


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## machski (Nov 2, 2014)

Well, for tomorrow unless things change, Sunday River will win.  They open at 9am vs Killington opening at 11am.


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## Puck it (Nov 2, 2014)

machski said:


> Well, for tomorrow unless things change, Sunday River will win.  They open at 9am vs Killington opening at 11am.



Sugar mountain won.


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## snowmonster (Nov 2, 2014)

^ It doesn't count unless we can ski it! Sunday River FTW!


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## ScottySkis (Nov 3, 2014)

I drove through some snow in the catsills Sat night in Liberty  on rte 17 glad my snow tires were on from Itahca hiking to snow probably more fell this tim at hunter windasm and bell and hunter being all east of plattty I guess season will statrt soon.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 3, 2014)

Killington is making an effort to open "for the season", rather than opening for a random day for lame marketing bragging rights.  They get the win on my scorecard.  


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2014)

When ski areas compete - skiers win


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## Conrad (Nov 3, 2014)

Props to Killington being open seven days a week. But guess what? That isn't what this thread is about! Sunday River with the win for this one!!!


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2014)

Exactly.  This thread is about who opens before the other - and that is all.  This year Sunday River wins.  But next year, who knows.

Frankly, skiing right now seems to be pretty absurd.  I guess there are some diehards who think that it is a good idea, but it doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.  It seems a lot more to do with marketing than anything else.  But on the other hand, the snow they are blowing right now is all part of what will become a base in the future.  There is something to be said for that.

One question, though.  I was under the impression that man-made snow should be let to sit for a couple of days so the water could drain.  Does it really matter that they are not letting the snow sit before it is skied on?


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## machski (Nov 3, 2014)

That impression is incorrect.  Manmade snow can b skied on right away.  What you don't want is cats on it for a day or two to let the moisture set up.  Skiers can help that process, but the weight of a cat, blade scrapping and tiller compacting would cause the resultant carpet to be a sheet of ice.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2014)

Letting it drain is ideal, but that doesn't mean you can't get a good surface by grooming it right out to ski on.  It really depends on the temps as to what kind of surface you'll get.  Could be mank, could be bullet proof.  

I've had great WROD days, and poor ones.  Some years I'm eager to make it out as early as possible, other years I wait a little.  I'd like to ski on Sunday, but only if a place is offering TtB.   Lapping T2 at SR has been fun before, but the lift situation can be a pain.  Lapping Glades Peak at Killington appeals to me even less.  What I'm really hoping for is Wildcat to be open.  IMO, Lynx is a better trail than what will be offered at either K or SR for several weeks.   Hell, it's a better TtB cruiser than any trail that exists at K or SR period.  One of the best in New England.


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## dangah (Nov 3, 2014)

*Is opening for a single day really opening?*

I totally agree with the post below.  Can you imagine if A Basin opened for a day and claimed first to open? They would be absolutely ridiculed. Opening for a day on one trail and then closing down seems to be more of a marketing stunt than a kick-off to the season. Congrats to Sunday River for the best marketing stunt. Congrats to Killington for attempting to open for the season.

Just my .02. I don't really have a dog in the fight as I sit here in the PNW waiting for snow levels to drop.





Savemeasammy said:


> Killington is making an effort to open "for the season", rather than opening for a random day for lame marketing bragging rights.  They get the win on my scorecard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlague (Nov 3, 2014)

I do not have issue with temporarily shutting down mid week - these are businesses.  Midweek stoppage happens on both ends of the seasons by many ski areas every year.  I do not blame them for trying to preserve base especially if temps increase a little.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2014)

The problem with micro-managing this issue is that you have to get deep into the context of the opening, such as debating whether walk-on and walk-off counts.  That's why, as far as I am concerned, "open" means "open".  The other factors should be for a different conversation.


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## moguler6 (Nov 3, 2014)

dangah said:


> I totally agree with the post below.  Can you imagine if A Basin opened for a day and claimed first to open? They would be absolutely ridiculed. Opening for a day on one trail and then closing down seems to be more of a marketing stunt than a kick-off to the season. Congrats to Sunday River for the best marketing stunt. Congrats to Killington for attempting to open for the season.
> 
> Just my .02. I don't really have a dog in the fight as I sit here in the PNW waiting for snow levels to drop.




So then Pico never actually opens for the season?

Crystal opened last year for 1-day on October 1st and I thought that was very cool of them.


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## skiersleft (Nov 3, 2014)

This is a non-debate. Sunday River offered lift served skiing 2 hours before Killington did. Therefore, SR opened before Kton. There is no way to spin it. 

If "open for the season" is the criteria instead of "open first", then let's start a different thread titled "Killington will open for the season before SR"


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 3, 2014)

I wonder what the reason was for Killington to wait until 11?  I was half expecting them to start loading the gondola at 8:30 despite the announced 11 am opening.  


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## mriceyman (Nov 3, 2014)

I find this whole topic amusing every year.. The best part was ski sugar opened before any of them lol what are the odds if that happening


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## Mariovntr (Nov 3, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I wonder what the reason was for Killington to wait until 11?  I was half expecting them to start loading the gondola at 8:30 despite the announced 11 am opening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They didn't groom anything until this morning then moved the guns to other slopes. Makes sense since they are staying open daily. SR closed rest of week until weekend.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 3, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Sugar mountain won.


Not quite. It was a tie. Catalochee ski area in NC. opened yesterday also. 2 lifts & 5 trails open.

edit: both Sugar & Catalochee are open today also.


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## dangah (Nov 3, 2014)

I guess I just take issue with popping open for a day to take all the marketing glory just to shut down the next day. SR claims this is the "Kickoff to a six month season." I just don't know how they can straight face that. 

Maybe it's because I'm more familiar with the competition between Loveland and A Basin where there are unspoken rules for the race to open first.

You are right, The Crystal thing was super-cool. The difference there was, they never tried to spin that they were the first to open in the PNW for the season or claim their season went from October 1st to June whatever.





moguler6 said:


> So then Pico never actually opens for the season?
> 
> Crystal opened last year for 1-day on October 1st and I thought that was very cool of them.


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2014)

K may have to close again this week as well. Then no one wins?


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## KevinF (Nov 3, 2014)

Wachusett always blows a patch of snow and sets up one or two terrain park features for the Columbus Day Weekend ski swap.  They should claim they were the first to open  in the country.

I swung by the swap this year; despite a cold rain, there were a decent number of people waiting for their turn at skiing what consisted primarily of fast mud.  I guess some people need their fix more than others.


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## Domeskier (Nov 3, 2014)

Do we argue over midweek shutdowns for last to close as well?  What am I saying - of course we do!


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 3, 2014)

Those mts really are upside down in NC.Cataloochee has no snow on the top and middle but a full wall to wall at the base.
http://www.cataloochee.com/cataloochee_info/webcam.php


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## slatham (Nov 3, 2014)

I have no axe to grind - I am not a Kmart or SR local. IMHO the winner is the one who opens and stays opens. A one day opening doesn't count. And it also doesn't count until you open to the general public. Sugar Mountain is still open. Lets see who's still spinning lifts on Thursday.


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## Puck it (Nov 3, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Those mts really are upside down in NC.Cataloochee has no snow on the top and middle but a full wall to wall at the base.
> http://www.cataloochee.com/cataloochee_info/webcam.php



That is really weird.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2014)

The only care I have in the "first to open" debate; whether it be first turns offered or sustained offering, is that the competition exists.  

If Killington and Sunday River weren't going for it this week, I bet many of the other areas who have made snow so far probably would have waited another week, if not longer. 

That said, where's Highwaystar?  Making turns at Killington I'd hope.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Those mts really are upside down in NC.Cataloochee has no snow on the top and middle but a full wall to wall at the base.
> http://www.cataloochee.com/cataloochee_info/webcam.php



So folks download to upload?


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## Harvey (Nov 3, 2014)

dangah said:


> I guess I just take issue with popping open for a day to take all the marketing glory just to shut down the next day. SR claims this is the "Kickoff to a six month season." I just don't know how they can straight face that.



If marketing didn't matter no one would be open now. Some would probably go from Christmas to Prez Week.

It's about marketing to passholders and creating a brand.

Let's hear it for marketing.


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## Vortex (Nov 3, 2014)

Those of us who skied today won.  I have no issue with closing down until Sat again.  I don't  think many at the River are complaining about this.  Opening day and many more coming along.  Feels good.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 3, 2014)

My opinion...  I would rather have SR tell everyone "hey, we aren't ready to open officially, but we have enough snow on the hill to open for the day.  After this we are going to shut down until Mother Nature is more cooperative.  Our official opening happens soon."  

I would like to see something similar from Killington.   It's hard for me to feel like they are "open" if I can't go there and get a lift ticket.   

The competition is great, and skiers and riders are the ones who benefit, but it would just be nice if resorts didn't over-sell it.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## machski (Nov 3, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> My opinion...  I would rather have SR tell everyone "hey, we aren't ready to open officially, but we have enough snow on the hill to open for the day.  After this we are going to shut down until Mother Nature is more cooperative.  Our official opening happens soon."
> 
> I would like to see something similar from Killington.   It's hard for me to feel like they are "open" if I can't go there and get a lift ticket.
> 
> ...



You guys kill me.  SR has plenty of snow to stay open.  But they have done this for several years now when it is only mid station and up (closing midweek).  The new plan is continuous when they have TTB.  Lots of you on this board complain and say you wait for top to bottom, well SR has decided to open when most die hards can get up and close when most can't early season.  If it means saving some $$ for mid season snowmaking, I love their plan!


----------



## joshua segal (Nov 4, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> My opinion... ...   It's hard for me to feel like they are "open" if I can't go there and get a lift ticket.
> 
> ...


According to their web-site, you could buy an Express Pass up to 30 minutes before opening if you really wanted to ski.  The fact is, there was a pretty good crowd on the few open trails - and I think it was a good idea to limit it.


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## Drewster (Nov 4, 2014)

Going today!!!!


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## Drewster (Nov 4, 2014)

Does any one else find that Puckits post are vague and uninformative?


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## Vortex (Nov 4, 2014)

I like the Monday opening. It made it easy to make it a long weekend.  In years past the mid week pass holders wanted an early chance on the hill.  Everyone had a chance to get out if they wanted too yesterday and could do it free if they dressed up. Opening and closing day free.  Hard to be upset by that.  
 Usually 7 days a week happens around the Boston Ski show opening.  The plan works for most of us.  killington has enough people to go mid week early Season. Sr does not. The Sr comminity is happy with the plan. Why do people care if they are not going anyway? 

8 years ago we were all pusing for being open by thanksgiving, now the push is for october turns.  Late season is getting pushed now too.  The season imo is 6 weeks longer with the efforts of Boyne," Sr and Sugaloaf"Killington and Jay.     Deadheadskier nailed it. If Killington and Sr did not push the evelope the other mountainbs might not have made snow and worked toward and early opening either.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 4, 2014)

Drewster said:


> Does any one else find that Puckits post are vague and uninformative?



There's a 250 post minimum to troll. 



Puck it. I'm kind of surprised you're debating going or not, considering how much you've been jonesing for some turns. Yes it will be crowded, yes you'll probably wait in line a while, yes you won't get much vert. But that's what super early season skiing is all about, the fact that you_ are_ skiing after months of not being able to. Just my .02 cents.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2014)

Drewster said:


> Does any one else find that Puckits post are vague and uninformative?




yes,  he's an idiot

don't mind him :razz:


----------



## Puck it (Nov 4, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> yes, he's an idiot
> 
> don't mind him :razz:




Don't feed the brother in law!!!!!!!!


----------



## Puck it (Nov 4, 2014)

Drewster said:


> Does any one else find that Puckits post are vague and uninformative?




One more and you can go to the summit.


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## Geoff (Nov 4, 2014)

machski said:


> You guys kill me.  SR has plenty of snow to stay open.  But they have done this for several years now when it is only mid station and up (closing midweek).  The new plan is continuous when they have TTB.  Lots of you on this board complain and say you wait for top to bottom, well SR has decided to open when most die hards can get up and close when most can't early season.  If it means saving some $$ for mid season snowmaking, I love their plan!



At Killington, you have to walk down a 250-ish stair walkway to get to the mighty 600' of vertical.  When you're done, you have to hump back up that 250-ish stair walkway.   They're open indefinitely for anybody who wants to ski it unless it melts out.   I got my free hat & sticker.  I did my hand-full of laps on "option A" and "option B" and dragged my out-of-shape carcass back up the stairs.   Would I prefer top-to-bottom?   Absolutely.  I can deal with the stairs a few times until it gets cold enough to blow snow on Lower Bunny Buster.   

Edited:
I'd add that I've skied T2 several times during the "Nyberg dark years".   I like the Sunday River user experience better but I'm not going to drive there when I can roll out of bed, boot up in my condo, and drive 2 miles to the K1 Gondola.   

I'm hopeful that when Killington finally replaces the Snowdon quad, they'll install a download-capable lift.   The stairs suck.  The walk up Killink to the top of Snowdon is a piece of cake that I do frequently in the spring after the Snowdon lifts close for the year.   They could easily run a handle tow up the power line parallel to that trail by cutting a few trees to make it even more user-friendly.   I'd be happy to see them remove that stairway.  I used to ski Catwalk from the ladies tee all the time and that is closed now because they put the walkway on the traverse.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 4, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Don't feed the brother in law!!!!!!!!



Poor sap. He probably would prefer if you didn't mention that.


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## ss20 (Nov 4, 2014)

Killington should be awesome today.  Massive moguls with these warm temps.  Corn, sun, fun.  Ski it till it melts.  It'll be like Superstar in the Spring with a similar atmosphere.  I'd pay 50$ for that.


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## Mariovntr (Nov 4, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Killington should be awesome today.  Massive moguls with these warm temps.  Corn, sun, fun.  Ski it till it melts.  It'll be like Superstar in the Spring with a similar atmosphere.  I'd pay 50$ for that.



I like the way you think. I'm right there with you and I have no problem earning my turns by using them stairs.


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## Rogman (Nov 4, 2014)

Sunday River: First in the east to close...  [/troll]

Competition is good, Sunday River has forced K to up their game (or more accurately get back to their game), and vice-versa. Others are following suit. Only opening yesterday for pass holders and express card holders is a nice perk. Except briefly during mid-day, crowds were minimal. I agree with Geoff that upper T2 is probably a bit more fun to ski, however, I'd rather deal with the a brief hike up the staircase (followed by a relaxing beverage in the peak lodge), than deal with downloading on the Locke triple or worse, walking down. No matter, to each his own. Neither has the ideal early season setup.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2014)

Rogman, as mentioned during your marketing scorn of Sunday River on Kzone, you could ski most of the way down to the base at SR.  They weren't able to blow enough snow to officially open TtB, but people were skiing down most of the way to get to the base according to at least one person here who was skiing there.   

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...vs-Sundayriver?p=867602&viewfull=1#post867602


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm having trouble keeping track of who said what in which killington thread


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## Dickc (Nov 4, 2014)

Sunday River from the Skiesta web cam

http://seaestahomes.com/mountains/SkiEsta/WebCam.shtml


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## steamboat1 (Nov 4, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> That's not the point, we all know that & it's a good thing. The point is how many will open Tues. Personally I don't care since it will likely be a few more weeks before I start skiing anyway. Just pointing out that there has been discussion about staying open in the past & I guess since I started it there will be discussion again.





thetrailboss said:


> Welcome to like 2010.  That's been a perennial issue/bone for contention.





steamboat1 said:


> Along with who will have top to bottom first & who has the most terrain open.





thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.


And away we go !!!


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## Ski the Moguls (Nov 4, 2014)

skiersleft said:


> This is a non-debate. Sunday River offered lift served skiing 2 hours before Killington did. Therefore, SR opened before Kton. There is no way to spin it.
> 
> If "open for the season" is the criteria instead of "open first", then let's start a different thread titled "Killington will open for the season before SR"


I guess a lot has changed in the last couple of years, huh?


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

Bump.  

Things are starting to look pretty good here:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...09&textField2=-72.8175&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw

10am on Saturday has them at 28F and 70% humidity and dropping, which is a 25F wet bulb temp.  The ground will be generally cold but not quite frozen.  Temps bottom out at 6am Sunday at 19F wetbulb.  It's definitely enough time for them to get rime open by 9 or 10 am Sunday, without grooming.  Its going to be pretty cold and windy on Sunday, so they will probably keep the guns running if they do open up.


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.
> 
> Things are starting to look pretty good here:
> 
> ...



Wind, soft ground, and 18 hours...if anyone can do it it is K. I would love to see it but they have already dismissed SR's "stunt".


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## ss20 (Oct 15, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Bump.
> 
> Things are starting to look pretty good here:
> 
> ...



On Killington Zone you made a thread saying Killington would not open this weekend.


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## mriceyman (Oct 15, 2015)

ss20 said:


> On Killington Zone you made a thread saying Killington would not open this weekend.



Well then hes gota be right somewhere!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

Wildcat starts up top Saturday afternoon and works their way down to open 2000'+ of top to bottom skiing Monday morning...


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## yeggous (Oct 15, 2015)

Tin said:


> Wildcat starts up top Saturday afternoon and works their way down to open 2000'+ of top to bottom skiing Monday morning...



Considering the latitude and elevation it is possible. I just don't see them blowing all the way to the bottom. The forecast for next week looks warmer, and I think they are only really interested in weekends. Sunday River has the same problem. Given their location isolated from Joey from Jersey, they can't make money midweek.


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

I like rooting for Wildcat and would love to see them not just be the first T2B again but first to open. Agree with you though, no money to be made yet. Hell, last year they were giving away passes the first few days.

It's all practice and conditioning until the woods are in play or the first storm anyway.


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## dlague (Oct 15, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Considering the latitude and elevation it is possible. I just don't see them blowing all the way to the bottom. The forecast for next week looks warmer, and I think they are only really interested in weekends. Sunday River has the same problem. Given their location isolated from Joey from Jersey, they can't make money midweek.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Sunday River will be like Killington.  If they open, it will not be T2B at SR it will be a run off Barker Lift and likewise Killington a few runs off North Ridge.  Effectively limiting lower exposure.  Also Sunder River has never gone full hog on midweek.  Weekends only until it is really game on.

Wildcat posted:  Ready, aim... Tower snowmaking guns on Lynx Lair stand ready.


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## yeggous (Oct 15, 2015)

dlague said:


> Sunday River will be like Killington.  If they open, it will not be T2B at SR it will be a run off Barker Lift and likewise Killington a few runs off North Ridge.  Effectively limiting lower exposure.  Also Sunder River has never gone full hog on midweek.  Weekends only until it is really game on.
> 
> Wildcat posted:  Ready, aim... Tower snowmaking guns on Lynx Lair stand ready.



I'd believe that Wildcat blows on Upper Lynx this weekend. Especially if they leave it in piles they would have better snow preservation than either K or SR given their combined latitude and altitude. That could give them a head start to the bottom when it gets cold again.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2015)

yeggous said:


> I'd believe that Wildcat blows on Upper Lynx this weekend. Especially if they leave it in piles they would have better snow preservation than either K or SR given their combined latitude and altitude. That could give them a head start to the bottom when it gets cold again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



I agree with this.  What's the ten day forecast above 3000 feet for them?  

I'm eager to get out, but don't want them wasting money.  I'm fine with First weekend of November.  Halloween would be great, but if one more week means less melt out (read lost $$$) then that's what I'd rather see.  I don't want to see money wasted in the Fall that would prevent them from blowing the necessary base throughout the winter to make it to May again.


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## slatham (Oct 15, 2015)

I think K-mart has a shot at Sunday. But regardless, this is all marketing. The models - which of course can be wrong - do not show any cold after this weekend all the way through Halloween. Making snow this weekend should booked under the marketing budget, not the snowmaking budget.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

slatham said:


> I think K-mart has a shot at Sunday. But regardless, this is all marketing. The models - which of course can be wrong - do not show any cold after this weekend all the way through Halloween. Making snow this weekend should booked under the marketing budget, not the snowmaking budget.



They've done it before.  They only need to make about 6 to 10 acre feet of snow to get Rime open, which can be done in about 12 hours of snowmaking.  If temps are reasonable, this can cost them under $10k.  With 48 hours of snowmaking, they could put down about 30-40 acre feet of snow on Rime, which is about 8-10 feet of snow depth.

If I was them, and had a world cup race scheduled for November of next year, I'd be putting as many snowguns on rime as possible and blowing the heck out of it.  Like actually running hoses from Reason / Upper East Fall through the woods to Rime, to get 80+ snowguns on it.  In this two day window, they could put down 15 feet of snow on rime and stay open no problem for the next month. Boom.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2015)

Did you have nancakes for breafist this morning?

I have never seen any ski area lay down a 15 foot base in 48 hours.  If it were so easy as this, they'd do it on Superstar every spring.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 15, 2015)

K's ready to go. On their facebook page there is a picture of them turning on one gun (only one picture). They also switched their webcam from the golf course view to the mountain view.

edit: North Ridge cam is also back up.


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## Puck it (Oct 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> K's ready to go. On their facebook page there is a picture of them turning on one gun (only one picture). They also switched their webcam from the golf course view to the mountain view.
> 
> edit: North Ridge cam is also back up.


and white on the trees right now where the Rime meets GNo

nope bad eyes


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Did you have nancakes for breafist this morning?
> 
> I have never seen any ski area lay down a 15 foot base in 48 hours.  If it were so easy as this, they'd do it on Superstar every spring.



Good thing you don't actually know what you're talking about.  80 snowguns running at 45gpm will produce 15 feet of snow on 4.2 acres of land in 48 hours (not accounting for extra wet snow, draining, etc).


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## drjeff (Oct 15, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Good thing you don't actually know what you're talking about.  80 snowguns running at 45gpm will produce 15 feet of snow on 4.2 acres of land in 48 hours (not accounting for extra wet snow, draining, etc).



Gotta agree, from a mathematically possible perspective with HS here.

You'd need some 12" diameter water pipe if you're just making snow from 1 water line to do it, but at those numbers mentioned, 80 guns at 45gpm, you're looking at 3600gpm of water to "feed" those guns (and K can CERTAINLY pump that, and a bunch more.  If you've got a 12" diameter pipe supplying a trail, that pipe can handle 4700gpm at a flow rate of 13.4 ft/sec, so you'd still have enough water volume and flow rate to supply the line of 80 guns.

Additionally, over the last few years, I think that it's safe to say that we've all seen 1st hand some of the BIG whales that many of the newer model air/water and fan guns can make on a couple of day run in good temperatures.

Is it possible, sure, the question is do they have the capacity to send that much water to that sized area with that many guns running to pull it off?


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## Newpylong (Oct 15, 2015)

Throwing numbers out there doesn't make it reality.

Isn't Rime 8" on the water side? 8" steel pipe has a max flow rate of 1600 GPM. At 45 GPM per gun that's total of 35 guns on the one loop assuming enough velocity and no gravity loss. The East Fall loop uses the same feeder as Rime, so using it would split output between the two loops vs concentrating the 35 on Rime alone.

Not to mention if the wet bulb sucks they're probably going to be using the K guns which can use up to 400 cfm each and the Ratnik's use a ton too. Air would also be a limiting factor on running higher than that many in the same area.

You can send all the water and air in the world up the hill but concentrating it on one trail is another matter.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Throwing numbers out there doesn't make it reality.
> 
> Isn't Rime 8" on the water side? 8" steel pipe has a max flow rate of 1600 GPM. At 45 GPM per gun that's total of 35 guns on the one loop. The East Fall loop uses the same feeder as Rime, so using it would split output between the two loops vs concentrating the 35 on Rime alone.
> 
> Not to mention if the wet bulb sucks they're probably going to be using the K guns which can use up to 400 cfm each and the Ratnik's use a ton too. Air would also be a limiting factor on running higher than that many in the same area.



Wet bulb is below 25F for 48 hours.  They are right next to a pump house and can run all those snowguns at the same time, from what I have seen.


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## Newpylong (Oct 15, 2015)

25 is a pretty poor wet bulb, it will take a lot of air. They should be able to run that many guns if they can get enough air there, but no more. 

The Glades booster will help gravity loss on the water side, but it won't allow for more water in the same pipe than physics allows.

It will just be cool to see them and Sunday River fire up if you ask me. They are both powerhouses in that department.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> 25 is a pretty poor wet bulb, it will take a lot of air. They should be able to run that many guns if they can get enough air there, but no more.
> 
> The Glades booster will help gravity loss on the water side, but it won't allow for more water in the same pipe than physics allows.
> 
> It will just be cool to see them and Sunday River fire up if you ask me. They are both powerhouses in that department.



This all becoming a moot point anyway, the temperature forecast has shifted, it now looks like they won't see snowmaking temps until 8pm on saturday night.  So it looks like a stretch.  Maybe a very thin 11am opening Sunday.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...09&textField2=-72.8175&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw=


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

highway star said:


> this all becoming a moot point anyway, the temperature forecast has shifted, it now looks like they won't see snowmaking temps until 8pm on saturday night.  So it looks like a stretch.  Maybe a very thin 11am opening sunday.
> 
> http://forecast.weather.gov/mapclic...09&textfield2=-72.8175&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw=



You and K = FAIL!!!!!!!!


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2015)

I chortled.


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## Domeskier (Oct 15, 2015)

This sounds as reckless and irresponsible as trying to cover Superstar T2B by Thanksgiving.


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I chortled.



You're a cheeky _unt mate.


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## Sotto (Oct 15, 2015)

Has anyone looked at Woodbury's web camera lately?


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## manhattanskier (Oct 15, 2015)

Killington is opening Sunday at noon! - Facebook page!


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## canobie#1 (Oct 15, 2015)

WooHoo!!!!!!  The Beast is back!


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## Tin (Oct 15, 2015)

HS and K still go down to Woodbury!


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## Highway Star (Oct 16, 2015)

Looks like the temperature forecast has shifted yet again, it looks like they'll hit snowmaking temps around dawn on Saturday morning, and able to make snow pretty solidly until noon on Monday.  Sunday looks like it's going to be pretty burly (for early season), with temps in the low 20's, overcast, and 15 mph winds.......burrrr.  Monday should be nicer.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...09&textField2=-72.8175&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw=


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## yeggous (Oct 16, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Looks like the temperature forecast has shifted yet again, it looks like they'll hit snowmaking temps around dawn on Saturday morning, and able to make snow pretty solidly until noon on Monday.  Sunday looks like it's going to be pretty burly (for early season), with temps in the low 20's, overcast, and 15 mph winds.......burrrr.  Monday should be nicer.
> 
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...09&textField2=-72.8175&site=all&unit=0&dd=&bw=



Wet bulb is going to be really marginal on Saturday. They'll be blowing slush, but I expect they'll try.


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## dlague (Oct 29, 2015)

I love the start of this article about A Basin opening "With the East Coast ski season well underway"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

http://www.tetongravity.com/story/ski/a-basin-is-literally-opening-right-now


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## skiur (Oct 29, 2015)

Well underway?? nobody on the east coast is open this weekend!


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## machski (Oct 31, 2015)

skiur said:


> Well underway?? nobody on the east coast is open this weekend!



Wrong, Sunday River is!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 31, 2015)

Sotto said:


> Has anyone looked at Woodbury's web camera lately?
> 
> View attachment 17642



That's an insane number of fan guns for a place like that!


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## Vortex (Nov 2, 2015)

machski said:


> Wrong, Sunday River is!



I was there Sunday.  It was open with Spring like Conditions.


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## dlague (Nov 2, 2015)

skiur said:


> Well underway?? nobody on the east coast is open this weekend!





machski said:


> Wrong, Sunday River is!



This past weekend - certainly not well underway and after this weeks inferno I do not see them opening next weekend!


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## machski (Nov 2, 2015)

dlague said:


> This past weekend - certainly not well underway and after this weeks inferno I do not see them opening next weekend!



This weeks inferno?  You guys kill me.  While not optimal, SR is looking at a high this week of 64.  Most of the week is forecast in the low 50's.  So not great, Saturday may be questionable but I bet Sunday they are open for sure given the cold air coming in Saturday night and Sunday/Monday.  But the early season seems like it will be a struggle this year, cold air does not want to stick.


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## Harvey (Nov 2, 2015)

machski said:


> But the early season seems like it will be a struggle this year, cold air does not want to stick.



Zonal flow, classic El Nino.  Wildcat > how those piles doing?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2015)

probably gone at this point

As a pass holder I'm glad they are being aggressive early season.  They want to be the first in the state to open and the last to close.  That's important to me.  In order to be first to open, you have to take on some risk.  They gambled and lost this time.  Next year maybe they get lucky and things don't warm up so badly like they have the past couple of weeks. 

They without a doubt got a lot of marketing out of it at the very minimum.  Lots of folks talking about it and know it will be an option early season.  You couldn't say that just a couple years ago.


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## Harvey (Nov 2, 2015)

I didn't get that call. NOAA has been calling for consistent above average temps for weeks on end. Still are.

Web cam appears to show something left, hard to tell how much.

Disclaimer: I love that mountain. Only skied it once, but thought it was great. Love the T2B HS Quad that serves the whole mountain (I think?).


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2015)

yes, whole mountain off 1 six minute ride


Perhaps whoever is calling the shots there is like me and doesn't pay much attention to the forecast beyond 4-5 days out.   Hindsight is 20/20 and other than marketing, it probably didn't make much sense.   At the end of the day, 48 hours worth of production on about a mile of terrain isn't that big of a deal.  They could easily lose as much or more during a January thaw.

Looking cold again come Sunday.  Will be interesting to see if they go for it again.  I'm sure they'll try their hardest to get open for the 14th if Mother Nature allows.


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## slatham (Nov 2, 2015)

K, SR and Wildcat all went against some very strong and consistent forecasts for warm weather. Each did so for their own reasons. But I have a hard time believing they weren't well aware of the likelihood of losing it all. They still have to be careful. While it looks to get cold this weekend, it will warm back up. And while another cold shot comes, it may again warm up. But at least in November each system should be colder than the last and the odds of snowmaking piles surviving goes up. And just maybe by months end we get a pattern change in time for Turkey snow.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2015)

Wildcat's move I strongly believe was a combo of trying to be aggressive to position themselves in a more favorable spot to open quicker when the cold air arrives and sticks around longer, and also I believe an equipment test as HKD was touting the collaboration with the snowmakers at Wildcat in the days after that run and stating how well not just their tower guns were working (and yes I know that Wildcat also has plenty of Snowlogic towers as well) but also how well HKD's new ground gun was working.  Remember, Peak's main snowmaking project manager is based out of Wildcat these days, so you're likely to see them trying and push the limits a bit as they evaluate new products for possible company wide implementation


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2015)

I don't want to share.  The Cat needs new equipment on Upper Wildcat and Lift Lion before sharing


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## Jully (Nov 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't want to share.  The Cat needs new equipment on Upper Wildcat and Lift Lion before sharing



Indeed!


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## Dickc (Nov 2, 2015)

Anyone remember the 2009-2010 season?  Sunday River struggled to blow top to bottom right into the first weekend of December when it FINALLY went cold.  Lousy November for skiing that year.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2015)

Dickc said:


> Anyone remember the 2009-2010 season?  Sunday River struggled to blow top to bottom right into the first weekend of December when it FINALLY went cold.  Lousy November for skiing that year.



Yep. Sugarbush struggled as well. Very warm. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## joshua segal (Nov 3, 2015)

Dickc said:


> Anyone remember the 2009-2010 season?  Sunday River struggled to blow top to bottom right into the first weekend of December when it FINALLY went cold.  Lousy November for skiing that year.


As I recall, there was no skiing Thanksgiving that year and the season did not start in earnest until the second week of December.  It's not clear what might have happened if Killington had started building a base early in November.  There was some cold weather early, but that was the in-between years when Killington stopped the early/late season product.  If I remember right, if they had stockpiled snow when they could, they probably could have been open for Thanksgiving.  By the time Killington was ready to turn on their guns, the cold had disappeared.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2015)

I believe that season inspired the building of the stairwell


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## yeggous (Nov 5, 2015)

Sunday River has officially thrown in the towel on this weekend. I wish I could say that next weekend looks much better.


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## Brad J (Nov 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't want to share.  The Cat needs new equipment on Upper Wildcat and Lift Lion before sharing



+1


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## machski (Nov 6, 2015)

yeggous said:


> Sunday River has officially thrown in the towel on this weekend. I wish I could say that next weekend looks much better.



Yup, Saturday night cold just doesn't look deep enough to recoup.  Looks like Sunday night will be colder so I would guess they will just try and stockpile to get a jump on the next cold shot (which doesn't look in sight of the 10 day forecast).  Welcome to an El Nino east coast winter.  Erratic at best.


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## machski (Nov 8, 2015)

Well, SR may not have opened, but coming up on mid November, they are blowin b wherever the Temps will allow now for when things turn around.  So today, that meant getting a jump in Aurora!


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## Highway Star (Nov 9, 2015)

***TRIGGER WARNING***









































Sunday River is LAME.


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## Not Sure (Nov 9, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> ***TRIGGER WARNING***
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dlague (Nov 12, 2015)

I wonder how the west is looking at the east?  Killington and their banner of first to open with all the first in North America talk and now resorts in CO are skiing powder and we only can wish we were!  Laughable!


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 12, 2015)

^ I'm confused.  Was Killington not the first to offer skiing?  Is it their fault that Mother Nature is hosing those of us in the East?




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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2015)

dlague said:


> I wonder how the west is looking at the east?  Killington and their banner of first to open with all the first in North America talk and now resorts in CO are skiing powder and we only can wish we were!  Laughable!



They don't care about the east


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## Jully (Nov 12, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> ^ I'm confused.  Was Killington not the first to offer skiing?  Is it their fault that Mother Nature is hosing those of us in the East?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it's clearly entirely Killimgton's fault. They don't want it enough.


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## dlague (Nov 12, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> ^ I'm confused.  Was Killington not the first to offer skiing?  Is it their fault that Mother Nature is hosing those of us in the East?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup!  They jumped the gun to beat out SR and now look at what happen - they cursed the whole damn neighborhood!


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2015)

dlague said:


> Yup!  They jumped the gun to beat out SR and now look at what happen - they cursed the whole damn neighborhood!



Killington has been open for 8 days this season. Would you have preferred they didn't open?


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## mriceyman (Nov 12, 2015)

You people make me laugh.. Id rather get those eight days in when in reality they had very little true snowmaking weather than have them wait everyyear for a real arctic blast to make its way down. Its Just a warm november which in our day and age is not uncommon. Hell we could very well have a warm december and january as well but lets hope to ullr that is not the case. 


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2015)

mriceyman said:


> You people make me laugh.. Id rather get those eight days in when in reality they had very little true snowmaking weather than have them wait everyyear for a real arctic blast to make its way down. Its Just a warm november which in our day and age is not uncommon. Hell we could very well have a warm december and january as well but lets hope to ullr that is not the case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Don't clump us all in with DLague - he was the only one bashing K about opening with the sign picture


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## dlague (Nov 12, 2015)

mriceyman said:


> You people make me laugh.. Id rather get those eight days in when in reality they had very little true snowmaking weather than have them wait everyyear for a real arctic blast to make its way down. Its Just a warm november which in our day and age is not uncommon. Hell we could very well have a warm december and january as well but lets hope to ullr that is not the case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Just playing around!  But people do rag on SR because of the way they open so in the end it really did not matter.  My family could not ski K town since they did more of a non public soft open.  Overall both got good press out of it.  I do wish someone locally as in NE was open.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 12, 2015)

dlague said:


> My family could not ski K town since they did more of a non public soft open.



Didn't you say that because you are a veteran both you & your family could get free express cards from K? If so both you & your family could have skied on those soft days. Besides only 3 of the 8 days they were open was for passholder/express card holders only.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 13, 2015)

dlague said:


> Yup!  They jumped the gun to beat out SR and now look at what happen - they cursed the whole damn neighborhood!



The Killington hate is lame.  They make the effort to make skiing available as early as humanly possible, and all you can do is complain that they opened before Sunday River.  

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Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Tin (Nov 13, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> The Killington hate is lame.  They make the effort to make skiing available as early as humanly possible, and all you can do is complain that they opened before Sunday River.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
> 
> ...




He just needs his Midol.


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## andrec10 (Nov 13, 2015)

Tin said:


> He just needs his Midol.


:blink:


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## slatham (Nov 13, 2015)

From K web site - they plan to open Sunday:

12:14 pm 11/13/15--It's your lucky Friday the 13th, skiers and riders, because we've got the announcement you've been waiting for: We are reopening for skiing and riding at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday, November 15.

Our ambitious snowmakers have been working hard, preparing the North Ridge area for the arrival of ideal temperatures, which are expected late this evening. Their aggressive plan calls for full-tilt snowmaking to continue as long as favorable weather lasts. We hope to be able to offer skiing and riding daily from here on out but, of course, that is ultimately up to Mother Nature.

On Sunday morning we plan to have two open trails, Rime and Reason, served by the North Ridge Triple. The K-1 Express Gondola will provide uploading and downloading and you will need to use the Peak Walkway to and from the open North Ridge Area. Hopefully you've been hitting the Stairmaster.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 13, 2015)

Hopefully they put down enough snow to make it through.


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## Puck it (Nov 13, 2015)

I am going either Monday or Tuesday


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2015)

Good call. Sunday will be a nightmare.


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Good call. Sunday will be a nightmare.



Why?  Can't think it'll be worse than any other stairway day.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2015)

It's a weekend. It maybe the only place open.  There is extra pent up demand for WROD because they've been closed for a couple weeks.


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## mishka (Nov 13, 2015)

Puck it said:


> I am going either Monday or Tuesday



same here


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## dlague (Nov 13, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> The Killington hate is lame.  They make the effort to make skiing available as early as humanly possible, and all you can do is complain that they opened before Sunday River.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
> 
> ...



No Killington hate here.  We book end our season there and catch a day or two between. BTW the free express card is only for me and I would no go and leave my family behind.  It was great that they opened but wish we could have all had access.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 13, 2015)

dlague said:


> I wonder how the west is looking at the east?  Killington and their banner of first to open with all the first in North America talk and now resorts in CO are skiing powder and we only can wish we were!  Laughable!
> 
> View attachment 17821



From out here folks sat up when you had the cold snap and opened. But when SR and Killington closed nobody noticed. Remember that TGR or UN post proclaiming that the east's season was well underway when things were on hold? 


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## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2015)

Me I'll wait for TTB. Whenever


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## machski (Nov 14, 2015)

Check out Sunday River's website.  I think they may be trying to open Aurora early with upload/download on the Chondi!


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## machski (Nov 14, 2015)

And sounds like tomorrow may be their reopen as well.


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## Newpylong (Nov 14, 2015)

Interesting. Has SR ever done that before? How much higher is Aurora than South Ridge or Barker base?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 14, 2015)

I've never seen that.  Maybe the motivation is that downloading on Locke kind of sucks and the Chondola would provide a better experience.


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## machski (Nov 14, 2015)

Aurora is the third highest "peak" at just under 3000', with an 1100 vert.  So the base is around 1800/1900, which is much better than Barker and way better than South Ridge.  Plus, Aurora faces more Northerly than Locke/Barker/Spruce so that helps with solar meltdown too.  Plus if they are making the lights out/paradigm loop, this allows ski off and back to both the Chondi and North Peak Lodge from Aurora allowing North Peak to be the "day lodge and restaurant/cafe/bar" for the open terrain.  This has never been done before but I am thinking more and more given this season's weather, that is what they are targeting for Thanksgiving weekend.  The have demo days that weekend so the peak lodge would allow them to stage that up there.


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## ss20 (Nov 14, 2015)

Wow.  Black Hole is a legitimately steep trail.  Airglow is very nice.  If those are opened it would be MUCH better than K's offerings.


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## Vortex (Nov 14, 2015)

i drove out towards Jordan and took a look around.  Aurora has a ways to go.  Wind is ripping.  Making top to bottom on Punch.  Wind is blowing hard at south ridge and Barker too.  Having Aurora open at some point soon seems very possible.  Locke on  T2 and Punch is what they have posted recently on the Snow Report for tomorrow morning.  Temp is 38 in Bethel, but not humid.  They are making at marginal temps, but maybe into the teens tonight.  My gut feeling is we get top to bottom by the end of the day tomorrow if it really does get that cold tonight.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2015)

K's blowing on upper East Fall so that will likely be on-line for tomorrow also. They usually allow that to bump up early season which is nice.


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## chuckstah (Nov 14, 2015)

Pic of SR snowmaking from Skiesta cam.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> Pic of SR snowmaking from Skiesta cam.



Schweet


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## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2015)

Stowe is going top to bottom too. They don't plan on opening until next week though.


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## Tin (Nov 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> K's blowing on upper East Fall so that will likely be on-line for tomorrow also. They usually allow that to bump up early season which is nice.




Would love to see them go into the Canyon and hit Dipper, East Fall, and out the Spillway. I can't stand the long boring way down through Snowdon. Unfortunately they have to appeal to the masses.


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## Newpylong (Nov 14, 2015)

They won't do Dipper this early in a million years. Requires far too much snow and only covers a portion of ability ranges. It's usually pretty far back on the rollout.


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## Tin (Nov 14, 2015)

I was dreaming. What did they used to hit early, Cascade? Just something with a little character and not cross country skiing along Great Northern.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2015)

Tin said:


> I was dreaming. *What did they used to hit early*, Cascade? Just something with a little character and not cross country skiing along Great Northern.



Upper Downdraft for Turkey Jam.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 14, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> They won't do Dipper this early in a million years. Requires far too much snow and only covers a portion of ability ranges. It's usually pretty far back on the rollout.



I think it was 2-3 seasons ago they never blew snow on Dipper at all, Trail never officially opened that year.


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## slatham (Nov 14, 2015)

Amazing that SR has literally no natural while K, Bush, Stowe all have good natural ground coverage.


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## bigbog (Nov 14, 2015)

Precip has been low, all over the state(ME), since summer...


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## mbedle (Nov 14, 2015)

Love it, things are starting to fall into place.


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## Highway Star (Nov 14, 2015)

Tin said:


> Would love to see them go into the Canyon and hit Dipper, East Fall, and out the Spillway. I can't stand the long boring way down through Snowdon. Unfortunately they have to appeal to the masses.



How about appealing to reality?


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## Tin (Nov 14, 2015)

Reality is, as much as K tries this year Monday River is offering a better product.


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 14, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> How about appealing to reality?



Trigger!!!


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## yeggous (Nov 14, 2015)

Tin said:


> Reality is, as much as K tries this year Monday River is offering a better product.



This is the truth. And they stayed open an extra week into the warm spell. It's as if K-Mart isn't really trying that hard.


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## Jully (Nov 14, 2015)

yeggous said:


> This is the truth. And they stayed open an extra week into the warm spell. It's as if K-Mart isn't really trying that hard.





I'm not convinced that they were ever open! Where's the snow? Clearly just a marketing ploy against the all mighty and infallable Monday River.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 15, 2015)

Tin said:


> Reality is, as much as K tries this year Monday River is offering a better product.



Yep SR 2 trails no grooming.

K 3 trails (4 actually) 3 groomed.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 15, 2015)

slatham said:


> Amazing that SR has literally no natural while K, Bush, Stowe all have good natural ground coverage.



At elevation Stowe reported 6", Sugarbush 5". K (who usually under reports believe it or not) 2".

A little poaching at Stowe yesterday.


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## chuckstah (Nov 15, 2015)

Killington is closed due to a power outage.  No word on when it will be back up and running.  According to their snow report.


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## Newpylong (Nov 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yep SR 2 trails no grooming.
> 
> K 3 trails (4 actually) 3 groomed.



Without the trail inflation cool aid, Upper and Lower Rime is one route and Reason and Upper East Fall is one route. 

Same as Sunday River.


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## mriceyman (Nov 15, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> Killington is closed due to a power outage.  No word on when it will be back up and running.  According to their snow report.



Not today


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## chuckstah (Nov 15, 2015)

Yes, today!


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## chuckstah (Nov 15, 2015)

Not reopening today. Got it!


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## Vortex (Nov 16, 2015)

I skied the River for a few runs Yesterday.  T2 was good After the first run and it got broken up.  Punch was a solid.  You could make it almost to the Bottom on Punch. 50 yards of Walking to the Bottom.  One more night of snowmaking and I think it will officially be top to bottom.


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## chuckstah (Nov 16, 2015)

Sunday River is officially top to bottom today.


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## Vortex (Nov 16, 2015)

chuckstah said:


> Sunday River is officially top to bottom today.



Just saw the report.  Nice. Tonight looks cold.  I bet they finish it off tonight.


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## chuckstah (Nov 17, 2015)

Bob R said:


> Just saw the report.  Nice. Tonight looks cold.  I bet they finish it off tonight.



I skied the morning today.  Guns were going top to bottom until about 10, but the base area was still a little weak.  They blew a ribbon almost to the lift, but there was still a very short walk (maybe 10 yards) required.  T2 and Upper Punch skied quite good, while Lower Punch needed more traffic.  
I asked around about the Aurora snow making and the consensus is that it is a test to see if they can get more terrain open for Thanksgiving by blowing the higher elevation trails during marginal weather.  They will up and down load if need be.  Early ops may move over that way in the future if successful.  It may or may not open this weekend pending the incoming weather.


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## chuckstah (Nov 17, 2015)

Crappy pic of the base area


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