# Alterra and DV Presidents Speak at Virtual Town Hall Event in Park City



## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

Rusty Gregory and the new Deer Valley President did a virtual town hall on "Leadership" last night in Park City. I will post the link when I get a chance. The talking points and marketing lines were in full force. Despite multiple reassurances that they were "not blowing smoke", I had a hard time seeing with all the air pollution. Some highlights:

Alterra is so new that they have "no idea" how many employees they actually have. They are also not really "much" of a company but instead coordinate and collaborate with their own resorts and their partners.
The new DV President looks like he is 35 years old. He does not have a lot of experience. He did not talk much. He said that DV is "the jewel" of Alterra and was really impressed with his employees. He said he wants to do a retreat this summer with his leadership to "develop a plan" for the resort. That seems about four years too late. He also tacitly admitted that Ikon is resulting in more people and he wants to "revisit it." He was adamant that the lines were due to "COVID" and not being able to load chairs fully. Almost in the same breath he admitted that Ikon had "50% more pass sales" this season than before.
The first hot button issue was the $500 increase in DV Senior Season Passes and cutting the Ikon Pass benefit that came with those passes. With a smug smile, the new DV President said he had to "make ends meet", that the increased price made the pass worth "about 7-8 days" of skiing to break even, and was final. Rusty joked that he is not local (basically throwing the guy under the bus) and that he supported the price increases "but" if the market thinks that Alterra is wrong then people would leave and Alterra would reconsider.
Rusty said that he has to appease three constituencies with "limited resources": customers, employees, and financiers/ownership. Without realizing it, he clearly implied that ownership is first by the fact that he spent most of his time talking about the "expectations" of ownership and investors.
Rusty "promised" that $200 mill in upgrades are coming for Alterra Resorts.
Rusty pled with locals to be "more open minded" about Ikon and to share the slopes with the "diverse" clientele that Ikon brings. He took a page right from a PR session by then going on about how important "diversity" is for skiing and that it is not a sport for old white guys.
Rusty said that they are "very concerned" about crowding and degrading the experience. He said that Alterra "listens."
As if high on something, Rusty then waxed poetic about the Ikon Pass and how it brings people to the mountains "to experience their best selves." As to plans, "we are looking forward to morphing the Ikon Pass into a lifestyle platform with more offerings." Whatever the hell that means.
Rusty openly advocated against a national minimum wage. He said Alterra needs flexibility to pay people in different markets. I was appalled that he made a political comment in this charged time.
As to those $8.00 lift attendants and staff, Rusty recognized that affordable housing and the communities are important to Alterra. Alterra has not "forced" its corporate values onto its resorts. He promised that we would see Alterra "invest" in its communities soon.

I'm sure that there is more to highlight. I was happy that they appeared, disappointed in the general platitudes and goals, and stunned about trotting out diversity as a defense for the IKON pass program.  I don't think coming into the most liberal area in Utah and implying that the locals are xenophobes for not liking crowds on their slopes was pretty tone deaf in my opinion.  But seeing how they have operated before, they are of the mindset of a former President--"say it enough and it becomes true."

Obviously I am not a fan of Ikon because of its impact on my local areas.  So I am interested in hearing what others think of this event and what was said.


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## keyser soze (Mar 24, 2021)

Well if anyone can handle an expensive product it would be Deer Valley patrons, especially the seniors settled in that area, and that is probably how they view it.
Also, sounds like they are talking about the crowds during COVID, but many locals were complaining before lifts weren't loaded fully.  COVID certainly affects the length of the lines, but I'm sure the crowds were less during these times also.  That being said, if they're making money with the ikon pass they will not turn away business until enough people do not buy it and affect their bottom line and that is not likely to happen.


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## ss20 (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Obviously I am not a fan of Ikon because of its impact on my local areas.  So I am interested in hearing what others think of this event and what was said.



You live there, so I will give your opinion its fair value.  But that said, I read Pugski pretty regularly and by all accounts Deer Valley is probably the most well-run and least crowded of the PC/BCC/LCC areas.  

A $500 price increase for seniors is shitty... but you also are quick to point out the tremendous crowds on the hill... wouldn't this reduce that?

Alterra is promising $200 million in upgrades.  They're a brand new company. Why do you have any reason to dis-believe that statement?  

As far as the rest of this meeting, it's essentially a virtual press release...it's going to be 90% fluff and vague answers and buzz words.  Doesn't matter the company or the industry.  I'm surprised the CEO commented on minimum wage...that's more substance than I would've expected.  



You're really becoming a one-issue poster with all the Ikon and Snowbird hate.  I get that things aren't the same as when you moved out there.  But you're clearly trying to throw Alterra under the bus here without any substance that they're f'ing up.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> You live there, so I will give your opinion its fair value.  But that said, I read Pugski pretty regularly and by all accounts Deer Valley is probably the most well-run and least crowded of the PC/BCC/LCC areas.


Agreed but the comparison I make is DV pre and post sale.  That’s my measure.



ss20 said:


> A $500 price increase for seniors is shitty... but you also are quick to point out the tremendous crowds on the hill... wouldn't this reduce that?


From what I see—no.  I don’t have the data though.  I imagine that from their perspective they think yes.  And people are living longer so they’re skiing more.



ss20 said:


> Alterra is promising $200 million in upgrades.  They're a brand new company. Why do you have any reason to dis-believe that statement?


I’ve learned to be skeptical.  Particularly when there are no details and when I’ve seen deflection and spin from the same people.



ss20 said:


> You're really becoming a one-issue poster with all the Ikon and Snowbird hate.  I get that things aren't the same as when you moved out there.  But you're clearly trying to throw Alterra under the bus here without any substance that they're f'ing up.


It’s no different than the pages of comments about Vail.  If your home mountain changed for the negative I would imagine that you too would be upset.  Hell, if your mountain and the nearest four other options all got overrun by this pass I think you would be upset as well.

Have they effed up?  Well, they certainly have deflected criticism and spun the truth more than other companies I’ve seen.  I’ve also seen how they treated Solitude locals.  I’ve yet to see anything to address the crowding here but admittedly the other resorts have just as much say (Boyne had implemented a reservation system at Brighton).

It is evident that (1) they want to beat Vail at its own game, and (2) the bottom line is most important.  Things will eventually change.

And one issue?  I thought my Big Sky TR was pretty good and didn’t mention Ikon at all.  I’d hope that at least the pics were good


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

keyser soze said:


> Well if anyone can handle an expensive product it would be Deer Valley patrons, especially the seniors settled in that area, and that is probably how they view it.
> Also, sounds like they are talking about the crowds during COVID, but many locals were complaining before lifts weren't loaded fully.  COVID certainly affects the length of the lines, but I'm sure the crowds were less during these times also.  That being said, if they're making money with the ikon pass they will not turn away business until enough people do not buy it and affect their bottom line and that is not likely to happen.


The point about clientele is true.  Jeremy pointed out that MOST passholders for DV have an out of town address.  And, as I said, today’s 70+ person is more active and is living longer than those a few years ago.


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## LonghornSkier (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> The point about clientele is true.  Jeremy pointed out that MOST passholders for DV have an out of town address.  And, as I said, today’s 70+ person is more active and is living longer than those a few years ago.


The numbers don’t bear that out. Life expectancy is falling in the United States.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> The numbers don’t bear that out. Life expectancy is falling in the United States.


That’s a recent change with COVID, right?


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## PAabe (Mar 24, 2021)

Not a doctor but as I understand it, life expectancy is average age - how long a baby is expected to live on average.  If you make it to 70 one would be likely to live quite a bit longer now. So more people can live longer but life expectancy can still drop due to other reasons affecting parts of the population like drug addiction or increased likelihood of being physically unfit

I would think the skiing portion of the population (who is relatively in shape) would definitely be having a greatly increasing life expectancy


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## cdskier (Mar 24, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Alterra is so new that they have "no idea" how many employees they actually have.


That's more common than you might think in companies (whether they are new or not). I work for a large global company that has gone through many mergers and divestitures over the years. I can tell you that you can get 5 different answers to that question if you ask 5 different people and/or phrase the question 5 different ways. Without knowing their legal entity/corporate structure and level of IT/HR integration among their subsidiaries, hard to say how easy it would be for them to know the number. I'm fairly certain Alterra is not just 1 single corporate entity as I've seen reference to "Sugarbush Mountain Resort, Inc" in various places since the sale from Summit Ventures to Alterra. I doubt SB is the only separate corp Alterra created.


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## abc (Mar 25, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> The numbers don’t bear that out. Life expectancy is falling in the United States.


That could also be due to more young people dying, of drugs or violence.

“If you make it to 70 one would be likely to live quite a bit longer now.”


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## ss20 (Mar 25, 2021)

LonghornSkier said:


> The numbers don’t bear that out. Life expectancy is falling in the United States.





thetrailboss said:


> That’s a recent change with COVID, right?



Actually it has been dipping the past few years.  Covid made it drop more this year.


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## Smellytele (Mar 25, 2021)

Saw that if a woman makes it to 65 her life expectancy is 86.6. A male's is 84.1


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## NYDB (Mar 25, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Actually it has been dipping the past few years.  Covid made it drop more this year.
> 
> View attachment 51150


Strip out the poor and life expectancy is still going up.  Adjust for wealth and it turns k shaped.  Top 25% still increasing, lowest 25% decreasing.    Old article but you get the gist.  There are thousands of studies about this

Guess which category 2nd home owners at DV fit into?


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## slatham (Mar 25, 2021)

That life expectancy chart is for the total US population. I would hazard to guess that it looks very different when you chart out active skiers. 

But the better argument for charging seniors more isn't life expectancy, its level of activity. I would argue (no data) they are simply skiing more than 10-20 years ago - more days, and longer each day. So they should pay more. 

And then there's the ability to pay argument. If you're a senior living near and skiing DV regularly you probably have the ability to pay more and will not forgo your pass. Thats the bottom line. If sales drop they will reconsider. But my guess is they hear a lot of complaining but don't see a worrisome drop in sales.


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## keyser soze (Mar 25, 2021)

slatham said:


> And then there's the ability to pay argument. If you're a senior living near and skiing DV regularly you probably have the ability to pay more and will not forgo your pass. Thats the bottom line. If sales drop they will reconsider. But my guess is they hear a lot of complaining but don't see a worrisome drop in sales.



Agreed, pretty much what I said up above.

"Well if anyone can handle an expensive product it would be Deer Valley patrons, especially the seniors settled in that area, and that is probably how they view it.
 Also, sounds like they are talking about the crowds during COVID, but many locals were complaining before lifts weren't loaded fully.  COVID certainly affects the length of the lines, but I'm sure the crowds were less during these times also.  That being said, if they're making money with the ikon pass they will not turn away business until enough people do not buy it and affect their bottom line and that is not likely to happen."


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## machski (Mar 25, 2021)

For what it's worth, Rusty Gregory was on the Storm Skiing Podcast today post  Park City event.  He stated unequivocally that NEW partners would be joining the Ikon for next season.  Also noted that while they are not currently engaged in discussions, Jay Peak is of interest to him as a potential opportunity.  Camelback is very likely an add to Ikon but not definite yet.


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

machski said:


> For what it's worth, Rusty Gregory was on the Storm Skiing Podcast today post  Park City event.  He stated unequivocally that NEW partners would be joining the Ikon for next season.  Also noted that while they are not currently engaged in discussions, Jay Peak is of interest to him as a potential opportunity.  Camelback is very likely an add to Ikon but not definite yet.



Also worthwhile noting that he said he thought Ikon was priced right and didn't see a need to lower the price to compete with Epic (although said the market would tell them if they're wrong on that).


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## ss20 (Mar 25, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Also worthwhile noting that he said he thought Ikon was priced right and didn't see a need to lower the price to compete with Epic (although said the market would tell them if they're wrong on that).



I'd love to see Ikon go the "premium product" route to compete with Vail's discount pricing.  People are fed up with Vail crowds...Ikon things seem mixed depending on where you go.  I'd bet if Ikon raised their prices by $200 they'd retain enough people that they'd make more money than at the current price point.  Yes, some would go to Vail to save the $$$ but how many Epic passholders are coming over to Ikon to at least have some relief from crowds?


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## cdskier (Mar 25, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I'd love to see Ikon go the "premium product" route to compete with Vail's discount pricing.  People are fed up with Vail crowds...Ikon things seem mixed depending on where you go.  I'd bet if Ikon raised their prices by $200 they'd retain enough people that they'd make more money than at the current price point.  Yes, some would go to Vail to save the $$$ but how many Epic passholders are coming over to Ikon to at least have some relief from crowds?


Personally I'm inclined to agree with you, although tough to say whether that is reality or just my personal bias guiding that feeling. I do know there are certainly a number of people out there that care about the actual experience skiing without mega crowds. The question is whether there are enough of us. $200 more would actually be pretty close to what I paid 5 years ago for a stand-alone Sugarbush pass, so it isn't unreasonable to think that at least a lot of the core regulars at some of the resorts in the Alterra portfolio would be willing to pay that.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I'd love to see Ikon go the "premium product" route to compete with Vail's discount pricing.  People are fed up with Vail crowds...Ikon things seem mixed depending on where you go.  I'd bet if Ikon raised their prices by $200 they'd retain enough people that they'd make more money than at the current price point.  Yes, some would go to Vail to save the $$$ but how many Epic passholders are coming over to Ikon to at least have some relief from crowds?


I'm no marketing genius. But I would think IKON can use a more "tiered" approach, as they started last year, by putting Jackson and Aspen on a "premium". I'm specifically thinking of Alta/Bird which should be on a premium level just like Aspen/Jackson. That would induce people to either buy the full pass, or drive the cheapskates to the other mountains in the area.


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## gladerider (Mar 26, 2021)

are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?

also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm no marketing genius. But I would think IKON can use a more "tiered" approach, as they started last year, by putting Jackson and Aspen on a "premium". I'm specifically thinking of Alta/Bird which should be on a premium level just like Aspen/Jackson. That would induce people to either buy the full pass, or drive the cheapskates to the other mountains in the area.


Unfortunately that is something that Alta/Snowbird need to dictate.  Right now they are too punch drunk from the $$$$ to consider such a change.


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## JimG. (Mar 26, 2021)

gladerider said:


> are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
> how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?
> 
> also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.


I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes. 

But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Unfortunately that is something that Alta/Snowbird need to dictate.  Right now they are too punch drunk from the $$$$ to consider such a change.


They do need to decide. I would assume they get a slightly higher payout for visits IF the pass cost extra for their resort alone....

But like I said, I'm no marketing guru.


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## ss20 (Mar 26, 2021)

gladerider said:


> are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
> how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?
> 
> also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.



As far as lines go a $200 increase would probably deter zero of the Ikon passholders on this forum....but apply it to the general population and you'd lose a solid percentage.  Maybe between 5-10%?  

I think Alterra would be OK with losing some of the retail, food, lessons, lodging etc that are the true profit centers.  Vail can sell a cheap pass because 90% of the skiing on that pass is at Vail-owned properties.  Ikon doesn't own a majority of the pass destinations.  So while Vail entices you with a cheap pass to get you in-the-door in hopes you'll buy $15 cheeseburgers, Alterra would be better off maximizing revenue through the Ikon pass as that's where their revenue comes from since they don't control the ancillary services at most places on the Ikon pass.  

Some people have proposed that we're seeing a "race towards the bottom" in pass wars.  I don't see it that way.  You simply can't have an industry where both of the main competitors use price-based competition.  The only example I can think of where this happens is low-budget airlines and they always fail.  Even between Target and Walmart, Target creates an image of quality and low prices while Walmart just focuses on being  the lowest price.  Vail is Walmart and Ikon is Target.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes.
> 
> But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.


Exactly.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> They do need to decide. I would assume they get a slightly higher payout for visits IF the pass cost extra for their resort alone....
> 
> But like I said, I'm no marketing guru.


I would not hold my breath.  For whatever odd reason Alta and Snowbird can't agree on much.  It's especially odd considering that they are neighbors and, at last check, Snowbird had some stake in the ownership of Alta (unless that changed when Ian Cumming took over the majority stake of Snowbird).  Alta asked Dick Bass to buy a stake in the late 1990's/early 2000's.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Some people have proposed that we're seeing a "race towards the bottom" in pass wars.  I don't see it that way.  You simply can't have an industry where both of the main competitors use price-based competition.  The only example I can think of where this happens is low-budget airlines and they always fail.  Even between Target and Walmart, Target creates an image of quality and low prices while Walmart just focuses on being  the lowest price.  Vail is Walmart and Ikon is Target.


I think it is hard to say now considering that Alterra "went first" with their pass offering.  Had they waited would they have dropped the price?  Maybe, maybe not.  I am inclined to think not. 

As a private entity, we don't know anything about Alterra and its revenue, expenses, debt, etc.  That said, we are seeing some signs as to what is happening.  I think Vail's strategy is to squeeze them.  Hence the undercut in pricing.  As to the cost increases at DV and other products, I think it is in part because Alterra needs to pay down a lot of debt/investors who financed their initial buying spree now almost four years ago.  Remember that in short order they took on Deer Valley, Steamboat, Stratton, Tremblant, Big Bear, June, Crystal, and some other smaller former Intrawest areas.  Then they added Solitude and recently Sugarbush.  That's a lot of buying.  Add to it investments at Steamboat and DV in a few new lifts.  That's a lot in a very short amount of time.

The discussion about "morphing Ikon into a lifestyle platform" suggests that they are looking ahead to making something more than a season pass for skiing.  We'll see.


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## machski (Mar 26, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm no marketing genius. But I would think IKON can use a more "tiered" approach, as they started last year, by putting Jackson and Aspen on a "premium". I'm specifically thinking of Alta/Bird which should be on a premium level just like Aspen/Jackson. That would induce people to either buy the full pass, or drive the cheapskates to the other mountains in the area.


I am unconvinced this has done much to deter folks from Aspens/JHMR (except for those of us who get the Ikon Base as an add on to our home resort pass and CANNOT upgrade to put Aspen and JHMR.  That pisses me off personally).  Alta/Bird IIRC is a COMBINED 5 or 7 days.  Would putting that on the mid tier pricing really do much?  I don't think so.  My guess is if it is locals on the Ikon causing the crowds, they have wanted max days there and are on the Full Ikon already, which is still only 7 days up LCC.  I don't know, if Alta/Bird were in the same situation as Crystal in WA then you'd have reason to btch about Ikon.  Where it's not even close to the same, I just don't see it.  There has to be other reasons beyond Ikon.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

machski said:


> Alta/Bird IIRC is a COMBINED 5 or 7 days.  Would putting that on the mid tier pricing really do much?  I don't think so.  My guess is if it is locals on the Ikon causing the crowds, they have wanted max days there and are on the Full Ikon already, which is still only 7 days up LCC.


Yep.  Exactly. 



machski said:


> I don't know, if Alta/Bird were in the same situation as Crystal in WA then you'd have reason to btch about Ikon.  Where it's not even close to the same, I just don't see it.  There has to be other reasons beyond Ikon.


Well, we are in a similar situation.  The pass and population growth have accelerated the problem.  The wildcard here though is that Utah has been considering doing "something" to 210 for a while now and Alta/Bird are hoping that we taxpayers will bail them out of this situation so that they can continue to have more skiers and riders.  So both are waiting to see what happens to 210.  If nothing really changes then I would imagine that the cacophony of us passholders will eventually make them consider a change.

And the biggest losers here have been Brighton passholders.  In my ten years out here, there have always been days when avalanche/weather closed LCC or created traffic backups.  BCC--not so much.  Before Solitude was bought by Alterra and became the "unlimited" Ikon resort, backups on 190 were rare and limited to powder days when LCC was closed.  Now traffic is backed up onto 215 nearly every weekend and holiday.  That is insane.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes.
> 
> But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.



I agree somewhat, but not entirely. Without having access to the analytical data, it is hard to say what the price should be because I don't know the usage patterns of the passes that are sold. Keep in mind that there are a number of people that buy a "megapass" with the intention of using it at a single resort (essentially what I do with Ikon at Sugarbush). Is that a large percentage of the typical usage or a small percentage? $2K might be fair for a true mega-pass with no restrictions AS LONG AS individual mountain season passes to the resorts in that particular mega-pass's portfolio are offered for a substantially lower price (say ~$1K). The problem right now is that "tiering" really doesn't exist. For a Sugarbush skier, you basically have no choice other than Ikon (unless you are local and ski mid-week and can get away with one of the cheaper mid-week SB-only type passes that they still offer).

I still think the ideal scenario for mega-passes is to require you to pick a "home" resort where you get unlimited access and then you get only a limited number of days everywhere else on the pass.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I agree somewhat, but not entirely. Without having access to the analytical data, it is hard to say what the price should be because I don't know the usage patterns of the passes that are sold. Keep in mind that there are a number of people that buy a "megapass" with the intention of using it at a single resort (essentially what I do with Ikon at Sugarbush). Is that a large percentage of the typical usage or a small percentage? $2K might be fair for a true mega-pass with no restrictions AS LONG AS individual mountain season passes to the resorts in that particular mega-pass's portfolio are offered for a substantially lower price (say ~$1K). The problem right now is that "tiering" really doesn't exist. For a Sugarbush skier, you basically have no choice other than Ikon (unless you are local and ski mid-week and can get away with one of the cheaper mid-week SB-only type passes that they still offer).
> 
> I still think the ideal scenario for mega-passes is to require you to pick a "home" resort where you get unlimited access and then you get only a limited number of days everywhere else on the pass.


So as a former SB passholder, this would concern me as I primarily only skied at Sugarbush.  I'm paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use.  

And as to the ideal scenario, I would not be surprised if that is what they eventually move to with Ikon so as to direct more revenue to their own resorts.


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## ss20 (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is hard to say now considering that Alterra "went first" with their pass offering.  Had they waited would they have dropped the price?  Maybe, maybe not.  I am inclined to think not.
> 
> As a private entity, we don't know anything about Alterra and its revenue, expenses, debt, etc.  That said, we are seeing some signs as to what is happening.  I think Vail's strategy is to squeeze them.  Hence the undercut in pricing.  As to the cost increases at DV and other products, I think it is in part because Alterra needs to pay down a lot of debt/investors who financed their initial buying spree now almost four years ago.  Remember that in short order they took on Deer Valley, Steamboat, Stratton, Tremblant, Big Bear, June, Crystal, and some other smaller former Intrawest areas.  Then they added Solitude and recently Sugarbush.  That's a lot of buying.  Add to it investments at Steamboat and DV in a few new lifts.  That's a lot in a very short amount of time.
> 
> The discussion about "morphing Ikon into a lifestyle platform" suggests that they are looking ahead to making something more than a season pass for skiing.  We'll see.



We agree on something! 

Yeah I see pass price increases as Alterra's only sure way of increasing revenue, unlike Vail who can cut pass prices knowing they'll get that $$$ back in hamburgers and ski school. 

I personally have used a fraction of my Ikon days at the Alterra resorts.  Off the top of my head I've done 15 days at Alterra resorts and 25 days at partner resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> We agree on something!
> 
> Yeah I see pass price increases as Alterra's only sure way of increasing revenue, unlike Vail who can cut pass prices knowing they'll get that $$$ back in hamburgers and ski school.
> 
> I personally have used a fraction of my Ikon days at the Alterra resorts.  Off the top of my head I've done 15 days at Alterra resorts and 25 days at partner resorts.


I'm sure we agree on more than you would realize. 

And your personal split as to Alterra vs. Partner is something that will make Alterra consider (a) buying more of its own resorts, or (b) starting to push folks to use their resorts. 

It seemed to me that the strategy was to use the multi-mountain pass as a sweetener to entice people to come to Alterra and to jumpstart their own individual growth and to slowly move customers away from the partners.  They certainly have a good spread of their own resorts.

It also seems quite interesting how the other multi-resort companies--Boyne and POWDR in particular--have few if any multiresort pass offerings.  Boyne offers NE options.  POWDR offers nothing.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So as a former SB passholder, this would concern me as I primarily only skied at Sugarbush.  I'm paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use.


I'm paying less for Ikon than a standalone adult SB pass cost 5 years ago... So I really don't see it as me "paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use". I see it more of "free benefits that are there if I happen to want to use them."


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm paying less for Ikon than a standalone adult SB pass cost 5 years ago... So I really don't see it as me "paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use". I see it more of "free benefits that are there if I happen to want to use them."


True.  I was thinking about pass prices 10 years ago I guess.     A full SB price was at what, $1,200 or so prior to Alterra?  More?

That said, being a captive audience would concern me.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> True.  I was thinking about pass prices 10 years ago I guess.     A full SB price was at what, $1,200 or so prior to Alterra?  More?
> 
> That said, being a captive audience would concern me.



I think $1150 was around the last price I recall paying for a full adult SB pass (for the next few years after that before Alterra they introduced a "For 30s" pass which I was eligible for so my price dropped for a couple years to closer to $500-$600 I think).


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think $1150 was around the last price I recall paying for a full adult SB pass (for the next few years after that before Alterra they introduced a "For 30s" pass which I was eligible for so my price dropped for a couple years to closer to $500-$600 I think).


$500-600 for a SB pass is a steal.  I do recall them adding more promos and discount categories in part to keep a broad product line up.  And $1,050 was the last number I can remember for a SB season pass, so going up to $1,150 in ten years is not much of a jump.

I did the ME Plus pass the last few years I was there.  I think it was about $719.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> $500-600 for a SB pass is a steal.  I do recall them adding more promos and discount categories in part to keep a broad product line up.  And $1,050 was the last number I can remember for a SB season pass, so going up to $1,150 in ten years is not much of a jump.
> 
> I did the ME Plus pass the last few years I was there.  I think it was about $719.



Yea, the pass prices held fairly steady for a number of years with only minimal increases...

2011-2012 - $299 (first year of the For 20s pass being offered which is what pushed me to look for and buy a condo at SB)
2012-2013 - $1049
2013-2014 - $1049
2014-2015 - $1049
2015-2016 - $1099
2016-2017 - $1149
2017-2018 - $549 (For 30s)
2018-2019 - $539 (For 30s)
2019-2020 - $579 (For 30s)


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## kingslug (Mar 26, 2021)

I'm very happy that I will have a pass to SB..and would have paid 1049.00 for it..but Ikon is a steal.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I'm very happy that I will have a pass to SB..and would have paid 1049.00 for it..but Ikon is a steal.


So for you and other SB regulars, now that you are on IKON, will you go to Killington more often?


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So for you and other SB regulars, now that you are on IKON, will you go to Killington more often?


kingslug is/was a Stowe regular and has a place up there who's now converting to SB partially (think he plans to have multiple passes next year if I recall correctly).

Anyway, for me personally as an SB regular, I'd have to say I'm not really sure. I'm off from work this coming week and am toying with the idea of driving down to K 1 day for a change of pace. I haven't been there in probably 10 years now. Realistically under normal conditions when SB is skiing well and everything is open, it would be hard to justify the hour drive from my condo to ski at K. The one thing I could maybe see doing in a normal year when I'm doing my regular back and forth between NJ and SB every weekend is hitting K (or more likely Pico) on a Sunday on the way home to NJ. I think in a "best case" scenario I'd use maybe 2 of my K/Pico days. I can't see using much more than that.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

early/late season. not everyone is into it, but killington is so good at getting me skiing in November and May


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> early/late season. not everyone is into it, but killington is so good at getting me skiing in November and May


For me neither of those are a big draw. I'm not going to drive 5 hours to my condo from NJ and then another hour to K in November to ski in crowds on a handful of trails. And once May hits I lose my motivation as well to ski. Plus there tends to be more things going on back home that I start getting caught up in. Maybe one year if K looked good for early June I'd try to sneak in a day then just to say I skied in June.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

superstar in a t-shirt and shorts with a backpack full of cheap beer in may is super fun. but i hear you.

november on the north ridge is nothing special, and i tend to wait in long lines for laps of the same 3 600 vertical foot trails. but i am so amped just to be back on snow, its become a tradition.


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## FBGM (Mar 26, 2021)

I ski Ikon cuz it’s cheap and has 5 resorts within 30 min. DV is a gem. They can charge whatever they want and the people will come. And if they don’t that’s fine. Real estate holdings are insane there. Money is no issue. Infrastructure there is top notch and minimal improvements are needed.

But crowds suck everywhere. Covid or not. Ikon and Epic obviously are to “blame”. But if you don’t like it, don’t ski. That’s how I see it. I’ve skied more BC this year then resort. It’s been fine. As long as your not getting killed by some jong above you.

And lol at wage comments. That will make no friends in Park City. Peeps here are gonna be at your door with pitch forks.


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## JimG. (Mar 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I agree somewhat, but not entirely. Without having access to the analytical data, it is hard to say what the price should be because I don't know the usage patterns of the passes that are sold. Keep in mind that there are a number of people that buy a "megapass" with the intention of using it at a single resort (essentially what I do with Ikon at Sugarbush). Is that a large percentage of the typical usage or a small percentage? $2K might be fair for a true mega-pass with no restrictions AS LONG AS individual mountain season passes to the resorts in that particular mega-pass's portfolio are offered for a substantially lower price (say ~$1K). The problem right now is that "tiering" really doesn't exist. For a Sugarbush skier, you basically have no choice other than Ikon (unless you are local and ski mid-week and can get away with one of the cheaper mid-week SB-only type passes that they still offer).
> 
> I still think the ideal scenario for mega-passes is to require you to pick a "home" resort where you get unlimited access and then you get only a limited number of days everywhere else on the pass.


Very fair point.

Especially from a property owner there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> early/late season. not everyone is into it, but killington is so good at getting me skiing in November and May


Agreed.


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## abc (Mar 26, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> superstar in a t-shirt and shorts with a backpack full of cheap beer in may is super fun. but i hear you.


I'm into late season. I used to do K in May when they have tons of coupons to allow me to ski it for a song. 

But that's not enough to take me to IKON though. I'll buy only it strictly for going out west. And I'll ski SB, K, Stratton depending on condition. Even though Stratton's terrain is lame and crowd big, it's on a different weather path than K and SB. It often catches the coastal storm while K and SB got skunked.


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## kingslug (Mar 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So for you and other SB regulars, now that you are on IKON, will you go to Killington more often?


Sure..it is a bit far from Stowe...slow ride..but i'll hit it for sure.. And I usually start the season there and sometimes end it.


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## machski (Mar 27, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.  Exactly.
> 
> 
> Well, we are in a similar situation.  The pass and population growth have accelerated the problem.  The wildcard here though is that Utah has been considering doing "something" to 210 for a while now and Alta/Bird are hoping that we taxpayers will bail them out of this situation so that they can continue to have more skiers and riders.  So both are waiting to see what happens to 210.  If nothing really changes then I would imagine that the cacophony of us passholders will eventually make them consider a change.
> ...


My point was Alta/Bird are not Alterra owned and weren't and still are not unlimited on either pass, let alone both.  So does the Ikon add pressure on 210 and LCC?  Sure, no doubt.  But it cannot be the end all be all of the congestion with passholders having a max of 7 days use up that canyon.  The Alta and Bird passes themselves must be causing a bigger amount of congestion, it's simple math.  So no, while your situation may look like Crystal's, it isn't the same.  Not to mention there are other Ikon options around SLC.  Now, want to talk about BCC and Ikon causing big issues up that Canyon, I can side with that as Solitude is unlimited us 5 or 7 more days of use at Brighton.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2021)

machski said:


> My point was Alta/Bird are not Alterra owned and weren't and still are not unlimited on either pass, let alone both.  So does the Ikon add pressure on 210 and LCC?  Sure, no doubt.  But it cannot be the end all be all of the congestion with passholders having a max of 7 days use up that canyon.  The Alta and Bird passes themselves must be causing a bigger amount of congestion, it's simple math.  So no, while your situation may look like Crystal's, it isn't the same.  Not to mention there are other Ikon options around SLC.  Now, want to talk about BCC and Ikon causing big issues up that Canyon, I can side with that as Solitude is unlimited us 5 or 7 more days of use at Brighton.


It is a big part of LCC’s problem.  Come on a blackout day or now that people are out of days and there are no traffic issues.  It’s pretty clear.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So for you and other SB regulars, now that you are on IKON, will you go to Killington more often?


So now that I skied K today for the first time in 10 years, let me re-visit this question with my latest thoughts. Honestly I was a little disappointed and would only go back mid-winter with good conditions and all trails in play. With only the snow-making trails currently open for the most part, I was sort of bored. Too many big wide trails with no character. A number of trails that looked very skiable but were closed (I kept thinking that at SB, patrol would've had them open). I was also surprised at the number of trails with snow-making that were melting out and closed already. I do suspect the natural trails that aren't open and the woods would be things I would enjoy though...hence why I would only go back with everything open so I can focus more on that terrain. Otherwise as long as SB is open, it doesn't seem worth the hour drive from the MRV to me.

Now I do still want to get back to Pico next year. I always remember liking their terrain better than K's and want to see if my memory is correct. I remember their trails being more of the "classic New England" variety where they're narrower, twistier, have more character, etc. Hope I'm right about that when I do make it back there.


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## ss20 (Mar 30, 2021)

cdskier said:


> So now that I skied K today for the first time in 10 years, let me re-visit this question with my latest thoughts. Honestly I was a little disappointed and would only go back mid-winter with good conditions and all trails in play. With only the snow-making trails currently open for the most part, I was sort of bored. Too many big wide trails with no character. A number of trails that looked very skiable but were closed (I kept thinking that at SB, patrol would've had them open). I was also surprised at the number of trails with snow-making that were melting out and closed already. I do suspect the natural trails that aren't open and the woods would be things I would enjoy though...hence why I would only go back with everything open so I can focus more on that terrain. Otherwise as long as SB is open, it doesn't seem worth the hour drive from the MRV to me.
> 
> Now I do still want to get back to Pico next year. I always remember liking their terrain better than K's and want to see if my memory is correct. I remember their trails being more of the "classic New England" variety where they're narrower, twistier, have more character, etc. Hope I'm right about that when I do make it back there.



Pico does have more character than Killington- the one department Killington really lacks and it sucks.  The Summit Glades, KA, and Giant Killer to name a few.  The old Poma line will scare the crap outta you...I'd argue it's tougher than Rumble at SB but doesn't get the attention as it's technically not a trail.  

K woods and SB woods are equal in my opinion, when the snow is equal (as it was this year as Killington got more snow than SB, quite rare).  Killington woods do certainly see more traffic though, I would say.  But if you go midweek and there's fresh the powder lasts a loooong time in places that are on-the-map but a PITA to get to (Centerpiece, Patsy's, Anarchy, Roundabout glade).  But Killington has nothing on Castlerock or Mt. Ellen or Paradise.  Just as SB has nothing on Killington after Cinco de Mayo or before Christmas!

My thought has always been, if Killington and SB both got 3 feet of snow and I had to choose a full midweek between the two, I'd choose SB.  If I had to do a season pass, it's always going to be K.  Peak season SB definitely has superior terrain, but all those days where its "less than peak" Killington will almost always have better options, especially pre-Christmas.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Pico does have more character than Killington- the one department Killington really lacks and it sucks.  The Summit Glades, KA, and Giant Killer to name a few.  The old Poma line will scare the crap outta you...I'd argue it's tougher than Rumble at SB but doesn't get the attention as it's technically not a trail.
> 
> K woods and SB woods are equal in my opinion, when the snow is equal (as it was this year as Killington got more snow than SB, quite rare).  Killington woods do certainly see more traffic though, I would say.  But if you go midweek and there's fresh the powder lasts a loooong time in places that are on-the-map but a PITA to get to (Centerpiece, Patsy's, Anarchy, Roundabout glade).  But Killington has nothing on Castlerock or Mt. Ellen or Paradise.  Just as SB has nothing on Killington after Cinco de Mayo or before Christmas!
> 
> My thought has always been, if Killington and SB both got 3 feet of snow and I had to choose a full midweek between the two, I'd choose SB.  If I had to do a season pass, it's always going to be K.  Peak season SB definitely has superior terrain, but all those days where its "less than peak" Killington will almost always have better options, especially pre-Christmas.



Those Pico trails you're mentioning are exactly some of the ones I remember loving. And the K woods are something I wouldn't mind checking out. Skiing past a few of them today I thought they looked pretty interesting. 10+ years ago when I skied K more I wasn't into woods, so I have absolutely no experience with K's woods.

One thing I didn't mention, I did like what K did with all those tunnels to eliminate the traffic jams at the various crossover trails. I can see that being a big help.

As for pre-Christmas, at that point I don't personally need a ton of terrain. Spring Fling, Ripcord, Jester, etc are good enough for me as I just need terrain to help me get back into skiing-shape at that point. K will definitely have more with their snowmaking capabilities, although I'm not sure I'd agree they would have "better" options (just my personal opinion...). I was thinking to myself today the couple times I rode the North Ridge quad that "I can't believe people actually wait in lines early season to ski these handful of trails with only 600 ft vertical." As much as I love skiing, that part just definitely isn't for me. I'll leave that for others and just wait until SB opens to get my fix. Even with it being "free" with Ikon, I still can't see myself ever doing that real early season stuff at K. Just like the post Cinco de Mayo scene isn't worth it to me (although at least with that one I can see the appeal). On that topic, I thought Superstar had a lot less depth than I remember from years ago. I could be entirely wrong and just misremembering how deep it was years ago.


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## ss20 (Mar 30, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Those Pico trails you're mentioning are exactly some of the ones I remember loving. And the K woods are something I wouldn't mind checking out. Skiing past a few of them today I thought they looked pretty interesting. 10+ years ago when I skied K more I wasn't into woods, so I have absolutely no experience with K's woods.
> 
> One thing I didn't mention, I did like what K did with all those tunnels to eliminate the traffic jams at the various crossover trails. I can see that being a big help.
> 
> As for pre-Christmas, at that point I don't personally need a ton of terrain. Spring Fling, Ripcord, Jester, etc are good enough for me as I just need terrain to help me get back into skiing-shape at that point. K will definitely have more with their snowmaking capabilities, although I'm not sure I'd agree they would have "better" options (just my personal opinion...). I was thinking to myself today the couple times I rode the North Ridge quad that "I can't believe people actually wait in lines early season to ski these handful of trails with only 600 ft vertical." As much as I love skiing, that part just definitely isn't for me. I'll leave that for others and just wait until SB opens to get my fix. Even with it being "free" with Ikon, I still can't see myself ever doing that real early season stuff at K. Just like the post Cinco de Mayo scene isn't worth it to me (although at least with that one I can see the appeal). On that topic, I thought Superstar had a lot less depth than I remember from years ago. I could be entirely wrong and just misremembering how deep it was years ago.



They blew less on Superstar and more on Bear to try to have multiple base areas open longer through the season and spread people out.  

I'm not keen on North Ridge-only skiing early season.  This late in the skiing though, personally, I prefer K's offerings to SB.  A lot more steep stuff is still skiable...just maybe not today with the re-freeze.  Outer Limits, Cascade, Downdraft, Ovation, Double Dipper all still going while my understanding is for super steeps SB is down to Ripcord and Stein's.

The never-ending Killington-Sugarbush debate....always fun to have!


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> They blew less on Superstar and more on Bear to try to have multiple base areas open longer through the season and spread people out.
> 
> I'm not keen on North Ridge-only skiing early season.  This late in the skiing though, personally, I prefer K's offerings to SB.  A lot more steep stuff is still skiable...just maybe not today with the re-freeze.  Outer Limits, Cascade, Downdraft, Ovation, Double Dipper all still going while my understanding is for super steeps SB is down to Ripcord and Stein's.
> 
> The never-ending Killington-Sugarbush debate....always fun to have!


Cascade was open all day today. Wish more steep stuff was open today. Outer Limits opened later in the day (after I had left the Bear side). Lower Double Dipper and Ovation were closed (Lower Double Dipper and Lower Ovation look questionable on whether K will open them back up at all as they had some pretty significant bare spots forming). Downdraft was only partially open (although middle and lower either opened later in the day or are expected to be open tomorrow based on the current trail report). I wish they were running the Canyon quad mid-week so you could access that terrain without needing to take the K1 Gondola. (No Bear Mountain Quad either mid-week is also a pain if you want to ski OL).


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2021)

cdskier said:


> So now that I skied K today for the first time in 10 years, let me re-visit this question with my latest thoughts. Honestly I was a little disappointed and would only go back mid-winter with good conditions and all trails in play. With only the snow-making trails currently open for the most part, I was sort of bored. Too many big wide trails with no character. A number of trails that looked very skiable but were closed (I kept thinking that at SB, patrol would've had them open). I was also surprised at the number of trails with snow-making that were melting out and closed already. I do suspect the natural trails that aren't open and the woods would be things I would enjoy though...hence why I would only go back with everything open so I can focus more on that terrain. Otherwise as long as SB is open, it doesn't seem worth the hour drive from the MRV to me.
> 
> Now I do still want to get back to Pico next year. I always remember liking their terrain better than K's and want to see if my memory is correct. I remember their trails being more of the "classic New England" variety where they're narrower, twistier, have more character, etc. Hope I'm right about that when I do make it back there.


I'm curious to know if any upkeep/maintenance/upgrades have been done at Pico.  It is a great mountain that, anywhere else, would be a real star.  Sitting next to Killington is its blessing and curse.  I felt that the last time I was there it was forgotten.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm curious to know if any upkeep/maintenance/upgrades have been done at Pico.  It is a great mountain that, anywhere else, would be a real star.  Sitting next to Killington is its blessing and curse.  I felt that the last time I was there it was forgotten.


They've done some significant snowmaking upgrades recently (including tapping into K's water supply):


			https://www.picomountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/mountain-improvements
		


Beyond that I'm not sure what else needs to be done. Other than snowmaking, I never really felt it was neglected. I don't really remember the lodge too well, but that's never really something I focus on at any resort. A no frills lodge is fine with me as long as it is functional. Lifts seemed adequate last time I was there. I'd only replace lifts if it is needed due to age. Capacity wise I thought they were fine.

Next year I really want to make it my goal to get back there.


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## kingslug (Mar 31, 2021)

Haven't been to Pico in 20 years..Next season for sure. Good continuous vertical.


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## keyser soze (Mar 31, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Pico does have more character than Killington- the one department Killington really lacks and it sucks.  The Summit Glades, KA, and Giant Killer to name a few.  The old Poma line will scare the crap outta you...I'd argue it's tougher than Rumble at SB but doesn't get the attention as it's technically not a trail.
> 
> K woods and SB woods are equal in my opinion, when the snow is equal (as it was this year as Killington got more snow than SB, quite rare).  Killington woods do certainly see more traffic though, I would say.  But if you go midweek and there's fresh the powder lasts a loooong time in places that are on-the-map but a PITA to get to (Centerpiece, Patsy's, Anarchy, Roundabout glade).  But Killington has nothing on Castlerock or Mt. Ellen or Paradise.  Just as SB has nothing on Killington after Cinco de Mayo or before Christmas!
> 
> My thought has always been, if Killington and SB both got 3 feet of snow and I had to choose a full midweek between the two, I'd choose SB.  If I had to do a season pass, it's always going to be K.  Peak season SB definitely has superior terrain, but all those days where its "less than peak" Killington will almost always have better options, especially pre-Christmas.


Agree with pretty much everything you said here.  One other big advantage Killington has over most resorts is that when the conditions suck such after a thaw/freeze, Killington will make the mountain much more fun than SB.  I've been to SB a few times after these thaw/freeze events and had sheets of ice, death cookies, and chicken heads.  Yeah, ungroomed is great most times, but there are plenty of days in a typical NE season where you need the snow to be tweaked,

Now that SB is unlimited we will target there as much as possible when the conditions are decent and save the K days for those challenging condition days.  We also will hit Stratton on getaway days to take some time off the commute home.  This year i ended up buying a K spring pass anyway as i didn't have enough days on the K pass and spring skiing at K is a ton of fun as others have posted.  Not as good as pow days, but then the corn is there all day and pow is tracked out pretty quickly.

I skied Killlington Saturday and while conditions are deteriorating as they are everywhere in the NE, I would bet there is much more open and skiable than SB at this point.  Friends were there the prior weekend and set it was bleak, and then we had the very warm spell.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They've done some significant snowmaking upgrades recently (including tapping into K's water supply):
> 
> 
> https://www.picomountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/mountain-improvements
> ...


That is good to hear.  How about Outpost?  Is that still running?


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## JimG. (Mar 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That is good to hear.  How about Outpost?  Is that still running?


It was last time I was there 2 years ago.


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## ss20 (Mar 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That is good to hear.  How about Outpost?  Is that still running?



Yes it still runs weekends and sometime midweek (hit/miss from my experience).  They partially re-painted it a couple years ago.  The GM says it's the next lift to get replaced.  Probably not this summer, or next summer with K1 lodge construction.  

Honestly I can see it going another decade.  It's not THAT old being from '69.  Still some lifts in the NE running with that age.  Off the top of my head- halfway double at Catamount, the former Snowdon poma at K, some of the doubles at Smuggs tho they're seen updates through the years, Red at Magic is only a year or two newer iirc.  Outpost has a short season and isn't a critical lift so I can see Powdr running it into the ground.  

At White Pass, WA I rode a VERY antique Riblet lift from the 50s!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yes it still runs weekends and sometime midweek (hit/miss from my experience).  They partially re-painted it a couple years ago.  The GM says it's the next lift to get replaced.  Probably not this summer, or next summer with K1 lodge construction.
> 
> Honestly I can see it going another decade.  It's not THAT old being from '69.  Still some lifts in the NE running with that age.  Off the top of my head- halfway double at Catamount, the former Snowdon poma at K, some of the doubles at Smuggs tho they're seen updates through the years, Red at Magic is only a year or two newer iirc.  Outpost has a short season and isn't a critical lift so I can see Powdr running it into the ground.
> 
> At White Pass, WA I rode a VERY antique Riblet lift from the 50s!


Hey if they have fixed it up and it passes inspection than keep it.  I loved that lift.  So neat.  It is like a mini Castlerock area.  Sidewinder is a fun trail.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Hey if they have fixed it up and it passes inspection than keep it.  I loved that lift.  So neat.  It is like a mini Castlerock area.  Sidewinder is a fun trail.


That's one of the areas I never explored at Pico but definitely want to. For some reason when I was there in the past we always stuck to lapping the summit chair for the most part (granted one time it was raining at the base and snowing at the summit, so that time it made complete sense to stay up top...that may have been one of my first personal experiences with how much can change with elevation).


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## ss20 (Mar 31, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That's one of the areas I never explored at Pico but definitely want to. For some reason when I was there in the past we always stuck to lapping the summit chair for the most part (granted one time it was raining at the base and snowing at the summit, so that time it made complete sense to stay up top...that may have been one of my first personal experiences with how much can change with elevation).



My only issue with Outpost is it's awfully short.  Like literally 500 vertical feet iirc.  I like the terrain but if I wanted to to 4 minutes up, 2 minutes down I would've stayed home in CT!!!

I remember maybe 3 years ago I had a early January powder day at Pico midweek.  Heaven.  I skied one of the trails in the Outpost area- awesome.  Totally fresh because you have to hike it midweek.  Got to the bottom and they were just opening the chair mid-day as a surprise!  For the first hour over there it was myself and maybe 2-3 dozen other people lapping that chair before word got around the mountain.  Soooooo many first tracks for that hour.  A photographer had set up under the lift line and was taking pictures of us coming down.  The whole vibe was incredible.  

I identified the guy loading chairs at the bottom to be a lift ops supervisor/mechanic as he had a radio on him and would sometimes check things as we loaded with a regular lift worker loading chairs for him.  Later when he was back to bumping chairs, I asked him somewhat jokingly "running this thing to make sure it still runs for the weekend?" (it hadn't been open yet that year).  His deadpan response- "yes".


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2021)

I first skied Outpost in 2000-2001 season.  I was in College and frequented Sugarbush with my "All East Pass".  It gave me reason to finally try out Sunday River and Pico.  I had driven by Pico before as a kid and thought it looked great.  I also read a lot of brochures over the years (remember brochures?!) and wanted to try it.  For those that don't remember, 2000-2001 was a great snow year.

Honestly, I fell in love with Pico.  All of my friends preferred skiing Killington, Sugarbush, or even Snow, but I really liked the terrain, vibe, and the unpretentious atmosphere.  If anything I regretted not getting there sooner to check out the old Poma and the Glades Chair.

I stumbled upon Outpost by accident really and decided to scope it out.  I agree with the short vert and runs, but man it was fun to ski that terrain and the glades.  NOBODY seemed to go there and that season I skied pow, corn, bumps, and all sorts of stuff on that side.    Pipeline, Sidewinder, Wrangler, and even Bronco really helped me improve my technical skiing.  IIRC Bronco had relatively new snowmaking on it for race training. 

I also really love Summit Glade, Upper KA, Sunset '71, Birch Glades, and a lot of other unofficial finds.  It always seemed odd that such a nice resort with great terrain struggled as it did.  And A Slope is no joke.  I never really liked Upper Giant Killer--it seemed like Exterminator at Sugarbush with worse conditions.  And it was another of many runs that had snowmaking on it that had not been maintained or repaired. 

My question about upkeep was because I always felt sad that things were let go there.  A lot of trails were getting grown in during my last season there in 2006-2007.  I do want to go back someday.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I first skied Outpost in 2000-2001 season.  I was in College and frequented Sugarbush with my "All East Pass".  It gave me reason to finally try out Sunday River and Pico.  I had driven by Pico before as a kid and thought it looked great.  I also read a lot of brochures over the years (remember brochures?!) and wanted to try it.  For those that don't remember, 2000-2001 was a great snow year.
> 
> Honestly, I fell in love with Pico.  All of my friends preferred skiing Killington, Sugarbush, or even Snow, but I really liked the terrain, vibe, and the unpretentious atmosphere.  If anything I regretted not getting there sooner to check out the old Poma and the Glades Chair.
> 
> ...


The 2000-2001 season would have been the first season I ever went to VT (my dad took me, my brother, and a couple of our friends to Okemo for my spring break from college which was around the 3rd week of March). I remember everything being quite deep and well covered with snow. Being my first time in VT, I just sort of assumed it was always like that! Next year repeated the Okemo trip the same weekend in March...way less snow. Then in 2003 we moved the trip further north to K and Pico. That must have been a pretty good snow year too as the snow on the deck of the condo we rented across the street from Pico was about 2/3 of the way up the door. Summit Glades was one of the trails that I thought was really cool and unique. I remember skiing that one a bunch that time.

On the topic of brochures, sure do remember them. I probably still have a bunch in a cabinet or drawer at home somewhere. Brochures were how I found Sugarbush. After doing 2 Okemo trips and 2 K/Pico trips during college, I wanted to see what else VT had to offer the year after I graduated college. Ended up picking Sugarbush. Took my brother for a mid-week trip to VT as his Christmas present (this would have been January 2005 I think). Had a great time. Several days that week featured several inches of fresh snow. Made it a point to make Sugarbush a yearly destination after that and eventually became a season passholder after it continued to be my favorite trip every year.


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## kingslug (Apr 1, 2021)

Watched a vid about Poma line..I'll pass on that one...elevator chute.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 1, 2021)

poma line really is not that difficult. its a bit narrow, and when there is low cover there is a thick metal cable running up the middle, and cement blocks from the old lift. but its not THAT steep, and its not THAT narrow. its skiable and fun to anyone who feels comfortable on, well, somewhat steep and narrow terrain. 

i have skied pico maybe 10 days total in my life and i have not once seen outpost open and running while i was there. its always been a short hike to access that stuff, and I've had incredible powder runs because no one else wanted to walk for 5 minutes.


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## skiur (Apr 1, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Cascade was open all day today. Wish more steep stuff was open today. Outer Limits opened later in the day (after I had left the Bear side). Lower Double Dipper and Ovation were closed (Lower Double Dipper and Lower Ovation look questionable on whether K will open them back up at all as they had some pretty significant bare spots forming). Downdraft was only partially open (although middle and lower either opened later in the day or are expected to be open tomorrow based on the current trail report). I wish they were running the Canyon quad mid-week so you could access that terrain without needing to take the K1 Gondola. (No Bear Mountain Quad either mid-week is also a pain if you want to ski OL).



Canyon quad runs midweek Monday/Wednesday/Friday.


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## kingslug (Apr 1, 2021)

The vid looked 1 turn wide..lot of exposed rocks..Narrow. When the camera pans up it looks pretty steep.




Have to get to Pico next year.


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2021)

skiur said:


> Canyon quad runs midweek Monday/Wednesday/Friday.


Interesting and a bit odd. Is there something that doesn't run on M/W/F that runs on T/Th? Or is Canyon the only one they only run every other day mid-week? I couldn't find an actual schedule of what runs what days. Only thing I saw was the list of what is open/scheduled today.


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## Keelhauled (Apr 1, 2021)

At one point in the recent past I believe they alternated North Ridge and Canyon, don't know if that's still the case though.


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## skiur (Apr 1, 2021)

Keelhauled said:


> At one point in the recent past I believe they alternated North Ridge and Canyon, don't know if that's still the case though.


North ridge runs every day.  Needles runs m/w/f as well, bear quad runs Fri, not sure about m/w.  Canyon should run everyday, the mountain skis so much better when it's spinning.


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2021)

skiur said:


> North ridge runs every day.  Needles runs m/w/f as well, bear quad runs Fri, not sure about m/w.  Canyon should run everyday, the mountain skis so much better when it's spinning.



If by Needles you mean the Needles Eye Express Quad...it was running Tuesday this week when I was there. And I'd agree that Canyon should run everyday. I don't really understand the logic in skipping T/Th.


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## xlr8r (Apr 1, 2021)

My first time to Pico was in 2010, around when Powdr got the place from ASC.  I think over the years Powdr has done a good job of maintaining it, with some small careful changes and improvements.  Except for Outpost's towers, all the lifts have been painted, snowmaking has improved.  The tree skiing which is one of Pico's strongest aspects has been fully developed by Powdr over the last 10+ years.  The lodge is one of my favorites and is the perfect size for the mountain.  And the surrounding buildings and condos make for a nice base area.  So I think Powdr has done a good job of preserving what makes Pico special.  It is a mountain that when you visit, it feels like a step back in time to the 1980s.  There is nothing really run down about the place, its just that there is nothing new and shiny either.  

The mountain is full of character, and the small little pods on the lower mountain and the big Summit pod on the upper mountain makes for a great layout.  It is fun riding the smaller pods of Little Pico, Knomes Knoll, and of course Outpost.  They are fun diversions from the runs off of Summit express.  KA is probably my favorite trail in New England and Poma Woods is one of my favorite glades.

Outpost probably won't last forever, I think a T-Bar might be an appropriate replacement when the time comes.  It is kinda like a mini Castlerock, and I have seen it on weekend powder days with a line snaking up the mountain just like castlerock as well.  I bet Superstar and Snowshed will be canibalized when they are replaced to keep Summit and Golden going for at least another 10+ years.   Hopefully the interconnect never happens it would ruin the vibe and overcrowd the place on weekends.


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## Smellytele (Apr 1, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> My first time to Pico was in 2010, around when Powdr got the place from ASC.  I think over the years Powdr has done a good job of maintaining it, with some small careful changes and improvements.  Except for Outpost's towers, all the lifts have been painted, snowmaking has improved.  The tree skiing which is one of Pico's strongest aspects has been fully developed by Powdr over the last 10+ years.  The lodge is one of my favorites and is the perfect size for the mountain.  And the surrounding buildings and condos make for a nice base area.  So I think Powdr has done a good job of preserving what makes Pico special.  It is a mountain that when you visit, it feels like a step back in time to the 1980s.  There is nothing really run down about the place, its just that there is nothing new and shiny either.
> 
> The mountain is full of character, and the small little pods on the lower mountain and the big Summit pod on the upper mountain makes for a great layout.  It is fun riding the smaller pods of Little Pico, Knomes Knoll, and of course Outpost.  They are fun diversions from the runs off of Summit express.  KA is probably my favorite trail in New England and Poma Woods is one of my favorite glades.
> 
> Outpost probably won't last forever, I think a T-Bar might be an appropriate replacement when the time comes.  It is kinda like a mini Castlerock, and I have seen it on weekend powder days with a line snaking up the mountain just like castlerock as well.  I bet Superstar and Snowshed will be canibalized when they are replaced to keep Summit and Golden going for at least another 10+ years.   Hopefully the interconnect never happens it would ruin the vibe and overcrowd the place on weekends.


Skinned up Pico Yesterday afternoon on my way back from work in Rutland. Came down Pike. Soft bumps up on top then there was a groomed strip through the middle flats. only maybe 2 other ways down. Upper Ka and 49er. Actually they only show 49er open today from the top. They close Sunday


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## thetrailboss (Apr 2, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> My first time to Pico was in 2010, around when Powdr got the place from ASC.  I think over the years Powdr has done a good job of maintaining it, with some small careful changes and improvements.  Except for Outpost's towers, all the lifts have been painted, snowmaking has improved.  The tree skiing which is one of Pico's strongest aspects has been fully developed by Powdr over the last 10+ years.  The lodge is one of my favorites and is the perfect size for the mountain.  And the surrounding buildings and condos make for a nice base area.  So I think Powdr has done a good job of preserving what makes Pico special.  It is a mountain that when you visit, it feels like a step back in time to the 1980s.  There is nothing really run down about the place, its just that there is nothing new and shiny either.
> 
> The mountain is full of character, and the small little pods on the lower mountain and the big Summit pod on the upper mountain makes for a great layout.  It is fun riding the smaller pods of Little Pico, Knomes Knoll, and of course Outpost.  They are fun diversions from the runs off of Summit express.  KA is probably my favorite trail in New England and Poma Woods is one of my favorite glades.
> 
> Outpost probably won't last forever, I think a T-Bar might be an appropriate replacement when the time comes.  It is kinda like a mini Castlerock, and I have seen it on weekend powder days with a line snaking up the mountain just like castlerock as well.  I bet Superstar and Snowshed will be canibalized when they are replaced to keep Summit and Golden going for at least another 10+ years.   Hopefully the interconnect never happens it would ruin the vibe and overcrowd the place on weekends.


If you have a minute, take a look at some of the old Pico maps on SkiMaps.org.  You will see how back in the day the mountain was set up REALLY well with those little areas and different lifts to spread folks out.  Here is one from right before SKI/ASC took it over:


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## Smellytele (Apr 2, 2021)

The only real difference from now is the poma and lift D are gone  (and lift A)


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## xlr8r (Apr 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> The only real difference from now is the poma and t-bar are gone  (and lift A)


Yeah the big change is that the Birches double chair is gone.  It would be nice if that was still around.  I get that today the Summit Poma and the T Bar on little Pico would get little use, but I think the Birches chair would still be useful today.  Does anyone know why it was removed?


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## Smellytele (Apr 2, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Yeah the big change is that the Birches double chair is gone.  It would be nice if that was still around.  I get that today the Summit Poma and the T Bar on little Pico would get little use, but I think the Birches chair would still be useful today.  Does anyone know why it was removed?


looking at it not sure it would get that much use unless there was bad weather and you couldn't run the quad.
I had skied there when it was there and not sure I ever rode it.


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## cdskier (Apr 2, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Yeah the big change is that the Birches double chair is gone.  It would be nice if that was still around.  I get that today the Summit Poma and the T Bar on little Pico would get little use, but I think the Birches chair would still be useful today.  Does anyone know why it was removed?


That seemed to serve very little terrain. Not really sure I see it being that useful...


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 2, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> If you have a minute, take a look at some of the old Pico maps on SkiMaps.org.  You will see how back in the day the mountain was set up REALLY well with those little areas and different lifts to spread folks out.  Here is one from right before SKI/ASC took it over:



My guess those were removed to shed some lift staff costs and the maintenance of those lifts that seemed redundant.  When ever I skied there we never had any issues with lift lines under todays configuration.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 2, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> looking at it not sure it would get that much use unless there was bad weather and you couldn't run the quad.
> I had skied there when it was there and not sure I ever rode it.



what was the vertical on that lift - does not look that long!  I probably would have used it either since the Quad allows you to link up other trails and still do Birches.


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## xlr8r (Apr 2, 2021)

I think the Birches chair would be useful for intermediates to access the mid mountain without having to go down 49er.  It is difficult for intermediates to find Birch Glade, Lower Giant Killer, Mid Pike, Poma Loop etc.  Also would help accessing mid mountain when Summit Express goes on wind hold.


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## ss20 (Apr 2, 2021)

Come to Pico when conditions are epic and the parking lot is full...you will still not wait more than 10 minutes for a lift ride, and that'd only be on the hsq's.  The mountain has plenty of uphill capacity.  Honestly I've always felt they're limited in their downhill capacity.  Outpost could be a triple or a quad but other than that all the lifts have just a handful of ways down.  The summit nor the Golden should be six packs...not enough terrain to go down.  

I bet the Outpost replacement will be a used lift.  Not enough ROI to invest $3 million in a new fixed grip in that pod that is open Christmas-mid-March.  Doubt it'd be a new surface lift as they'd have to add snowmaking on the trail under the lift and it has a wicked double fall line at the top and is pretty steep.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2021)

Today's news:  









						Big Sky Nixes Tram Access For Ikon, Mountain Collective, and Day Pass Holders
					

^Courtesy: FACEBOOK/Big Sky Resort Big Sky Resort released an update yesterday that access to the Lone Peak Tram will be a little bit different next season. Ikon Pass, Mountain Collective, and day …




					unofficialnetworks.com
				





I don't think that Alterra is going to be happy about this.  It certainly shows that Boyne is concerned about traffic.  On my visit to Big Sky the Tram was about a 45-60 minute wait.


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## machski (Apr 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Today's news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe not, but BS isn't just limiting Ikon passholders.  Most of their own season passes, all tickets (even Boyne crossover benefit tickets are affected) and MC passes are impacted equally.  Alterra says they respect the local mountain decisions, this will be one.  But they are only a partner resort.  Would be interesting to see if an Alterra owned area wanted to do something similar (Say Steamboat with the Gondola until Big Blue goes in?)


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2021)

machski said:


> Maybe not, but BS isn't just limiting Ikon passholders.  Most of their own season passes, all tickets (even Boyne crossover benefit tickets are affected) and MC passes are impacted equally.  Alterra says they respect the local mountain decisions, this will be one.  But they are only a partner resort.  Would be interesting to see if an Alterra owned area wanted to do something similar (Say Steamboat with the Gondola until Big Blue goes in?)


An "Alterra" resort has done "something":  the Aspen Resorts left Ikon Base.  Crystal has also changed access.


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## FBGM (Apr 7, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Today's news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive never skied off that team due to how long the line always is. And those boxes are damn small. I’d rather skin up there...which would be long, and a very out of the way method.

Big Sky also has one of the worst lift set ups I’ve seen. Makes no sense


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Big Sky also has one of the worst lift set ups I’ve seen. Makes no sense


How so?  They brag about their lift system.


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## machski (Apr 7, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Ive never skied off that team due to how long the line always is. And those boxes are damn small. I’d rather skin up there...which would be long, and a very out of the way method.
> 
> Big Sky also has one of the worst lift set ups I’ve seen. Makes no sense


I would agree on some level for now.  When the new Gondi goes in that will terminate at the base of Powder Chaser, it will make a bit more sense.  For now, seems weird to have to ride Swifty to Powder Chaser to Tram to access the top.  Regardless, seems to always be a 3 lift ride to the very top.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2021)

Season Pass Letter from Big Sky Resort
					

Read a message from Big Sky Resort General Manager, Troy Nedved, reflecting on this season and looking forward to the winter of 2021-22.




					bigskyresort.com


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## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2021)

Tram Day FAQs - Season Pass
					






					bigskyresort.com


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## FBGM (Apr 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> How so?  They brag about their lift system.


They have great lifts. New, big, heated seats, all that jazz. But layout is weird. I think part in due to when Moonlight combined.

Foe instance. That new 8 person lift. Comes out of base, to the top of that lookers left “peak”. Shove 8 a time up there and they dump down the back to a quad or back to base. The other base lift is a high speed quad that is overwhelmed and probably the busiest at mountain. Instead of they dumb 8 person marketing lift, would have rather seen that money go to 2 6 packs or just keep a quad up where the new 8 is and 6 pack to replace that busy base quad.

Also that orange 6 pack up below the peak/tram. Useless. Small area, huge lift, quad would have been more then fine.
The moonlight side has that huge high speed quad that services like that entire side. Like 1,500 acres. 1 lift. And that is busy as shit. Should have dumped a 6 there.

Spark Notes - that 8 person chair is dumb and the money could have went to other lift upgrades.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> They have great lifts. New, big, heated seats, all that jazz. But layout is weird. I think part in due to when Moonlight combined.
> 
> Foe instance. That new 8 person lift. Comes out of base, to the top of that lookers left “peak”. Shove 8 a time up there and they dump down the back to a quad or back to base. The other base lift is a high speed quad that is overwhelmed and probably the busiest at mountain. Instead of they dumb 8 person marketing lift, would have rather seen that money go to 2 6 packs or just keep a quad up where the new 8 is and 6 pack to replace that busy base quad.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying and agree.  Ramcharger seems odd.  But consider that Swifty is getting replaced this year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> The moonlight side has that huge high speed quad that services like that entire side. Like 1,500 acres. 1 lift. And that is busy as shit. Should have dumped a 6 there.


Six Shooter on Moonlight Basin is a six-pack.


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## NYDB (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Also that orange 6 pack up below the peak/tram. Useless. Small area, huge lift, quad would have been more then fine.


that Powderseeker lift struck me as the strangest lift there.  A heated bubble lift on a 3 minute ride?  Useless.  I don't care how cold it is.  

(unless they eventually just plan to have bubble 6's everywhere)


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## FBGM (Apr 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Six Shooter on Moonlight Basin is a six-pack.


Ohh yeah it is. Crazy how busy it still is. Guess that’s the only lift for a huge area so makes sense.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Ohh yeah it is. Crazy how busy it still is. Guess that’s the only lift for a huge area so makes sense.


It is busy.  And breaks down a lot.  It’s on the “list” for replacement.  I liked Moonlight Basin more than I though I would.


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## machski (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Ohh yeah it is. Crazy how busy it still is. Guess that’s the only lift for a huge area so makes sense.


Six shooter does not have a full compliment of chairs, Boyne put out feelers for more of the same series chairs to fill it out (older L-P model).

Ramcharger is used all year, serves their MTB park and Everett's.  You have two HSQ's off the back of Andersite plus the Lone Moose Triple area.  Swift Current Express HSQ is being replaced this summer with a Six of the same vintage as the Ramcharger 8 and a few years later a new Gondi will run in a new alignment up the beginner terrain and turn to top out at the base of Powder Seeker 6.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

machski said:


> Six shooter does not have a full compliment of chairs, Boyne put out feelers for more of the same series chairs to fill it out (older L-P model).
> 
> Ramcharger is used all year, serves their MTB park and Everett's.  You have two HSQ's off the back of Andersite plus the Lone Moose Triple area.  Swift Current Express HSQ is being replaced this summer with a Six of the same vintage as the Ramcharger 8 and a few years later a new Gondi will run in a new alignment up the beginner terrain and turn to top out at the base of Powder Seeker 6.


I'm pretty sure that Six Shooter was a CTEC-Garaventa Model.


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## FBGM (Apr 8, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> It is busy.  And breaks down a lot.  It’s on the “list” for replacement.  I liked Moonlight Basin more than I though I would.


One of the best parts of the mountain IMO. Minus that lift and nowhere else to go at bottom. Good, long, cruisers. Good snow. No wind.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

FBGM said:


> One of the best parts of the mountain IMO. Minus that lift and nowhere else to go at bottom. Good, long, cruisers. Good snow. No wind.


Bingo.  If one starts on that side and it breaks down, as it did on my visit, you are SOL.  The free shuttle goes out there "every once in a while".


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

So here is their $207 million plan.  Most of the items we knew about.  









						ALTERRA MOUNTAIN COMPANY ANNOUNCES $207 MILLION IN TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGES AT FOUR MARQUEE DESTINATIONS
					

Alterra Mountain Company announces its plans to invest $207 million in capital improvements for the upcoming year, including transformational base area and on-mountain developments at Steamboat, Deer Valley Resort, Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows and Mammoth Mountain.




					www.alterramtnco.com


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## tumbler (Apr 12, 2021)

And $0.00 for Sugarbush.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

tumbler said:


> And $0.00 for Sugarbush.


I would imagine that they are in the $65 million "maintenance" budget.  I don't consider maintenance to be improvements.


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## tumbler (Apr 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I would imagine that they are in the $65 million "maintenance" budget.  I don't consider maintenance to be improvements.


I hope so or we are back to the ASC neglect days when they focused on their big shiny toys.


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## machski (Apr 12, 2021)

tumbler said:


> And $0.00 for Sugarbush.


They just fully took over last year, what exactly did you expect them to do at SB.  Especially coming out of a year that they postponed major CapEx projects due to Covid?  SB has decent infrastructure currently (and nothing ready to fall down or crap out), I would think Alterra is still mapping plans for CapEx there.


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2021)

machski said:


> They just fully took over last year, what exactly did you expect them to do at SB.  Especially coming out of a year that they postponed major CapEx projects due to Covid?  SB has decent infrastructure currently (and nothing ready to fall down or crap out), I would think Alterra is still mapping plans for CapEx there.



I agree. What they're doing this year is pretty much what they had planned to do last year. One major thing I know that was talked about for SB was adding a new snow-making pond closer to the mountain so they can ultimately increase snowmaking capacity at Lincoln Peak. But this was a multi-year project anyway if I recall correctly and was only in early planning stages last year. Essentially everything is pushed back a year due to minimal things being done last year with COVID putting everything on hold. Now if next year we don't hear anything further about plans for SB CapEx spending, then there's a reason to be concerned. This year I expected pretty much nothing other than required maintenance items.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

tumbler said:


> I hope so or we are back to the ASC neglect days when they focused on their big shiny toys.


Absolutely.  My only comment was that maintenance is a necessary thing that I don't think needs to be in a press release.  But it is good.


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## ss20 (Apr 12, 2021)

There is nothing so dire at SB that it's needed the year after a global pandemic which decimated business financials and made an uncertain industry 100x more uncertain.  Didn't they upgrade their beginner lifts to brand new quads?  There isn't a lift on that hill more than 35 years old, correct?  That' sincredibly impressive.

At Killington they pushed off the new base lodge another year due to funding issues.  So it broke ground in summer 2019 and has been paused since March 2020...and will not be completed til at least Fall 2022 now.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

ss20 said:


> There is nothing so dire at SB that it's needed the year after a global pandemic which decimated business financials and made an uncertain industry 100x more uncertain.  Didn't they upgrade their beginner lifts to brand new quads?  There isn't a lift on that hill more than 35 years old, correct?  That' sincredibly impressive.


Heaven's Gate is getting up there......




ss20 said:


> At Killington they pushed off the new base lodge another year due to funding issues.  So it broke ground in summer 2019 and has been paused since March 2020...and will not be completed til at least Fall 2022 now.


Wow, seriously?  So they have a half-built building at Killington Base?  That is really weird.


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## cdskier (Apr 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Heaven's Gate is getting up there......


It was just rebuilt by Skytrac in 2014. No rush to replace it and I certainly wouldn't put that at the top of my short-term CapEx wish-list for SB.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Heaven's Gate is getting up there......
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, seriously?  So they have a half-built building at Killington Base?  That is really weird.


lol they sure do. old killington base lodge is there but butts up against a giant half structure that eats some of the parking area. really the area that used to be the skier drop off loop. the ticketing at killington peak is in a trailer in the parking lot. the old k-1 lodge is only really open for bathrooms and quick food service. guest services no longer in there. they scan you for contact tracing on the way in. that may be everywhere tho, last weekend at killington was the first time i went in a base lodge all season. my pass had stopped scanning so i went to deal with it at guest services, and was directed to the damn parking lot trailer.

one good end result of this is that the lodge will be downhill of the gondola base

this is taken from the side. you see the k-1 gondola cable coming across the top of the frame. so thats the old side door of the lodge. the front door where outdoor ticketing used to be almost touches the new lodge:


the future:
**


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## ss20 (Apr 12, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol they sure do. old killington base lodge is there but butts up against a giant half structure that eats some of the parking area. really the area that used to be the skier drop off loop. the ticketing at killington peak is in a trailer in the parking lot. the old k-1 lodge is only really open for bathrooms and quick food service. guest services no longer in there. they scan you for contact tracing on the way in. that may be everywhere tho, last weekend at killington was the first time i went in a base lodge all season. my pass had stopped scanning so i went to deal with it at guest services, and was directed to the damn parking lot trailer.



Yep...should start calling that one the Reynolds Wrap lodge lol.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 13, 2021)

For a place that is so fa fa, the base at Deer Valley does feel a bit tired.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 13, 2021)

tumbler said:


> And $0.00 for Sugarbush.



Buy east coast so the passholders that ski SB hopefully take some western trips (Vail Model?)


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> For a place that is so fa fa, the base at Deer Valley does feel a bit tired.


How?  I do not think it is that bad.  The traffic and parking systems work well...until they clogged it with traffic.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol they sure do. old killington base lodge is there but butts up against a giant half structure that eats some of the parking area. really the area that used to be the skier drop off loop. the ticketing at killington peak is in a trailer in the parking lot. the old k-1 lodge is only really open for bathrooms and quick food service. guest services no longer in there. they scan you for contact tracing on the way in. that may be everywhere tho, last weekend at killington was the first time i went in a base lodge all season. my pass had stopped scanning so i went to deal with it at guest services, and was directed to the damn parking lot trailer.
> 
> one good end result of this is that the lodge will be downhill of the gondola base
> 
> ...


That is so dumb.  It will end up costing more with the delays.  Perhaps POWDR should focus on their season pass business instead of chasing pennies on the dollar with IKON.  That's how they can make more money to pay for this half-completed lodge.  Pres Smith would be sick to see this mess at Killington.


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## mikec142 (Apr 13, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So for you and other SB regulars, now that you are on IKON, will you go to Killington more often?


This was my first year as an Ikon pass holder (full pass).  I paid $1000.  This coming year as a returning user I will pay $900 (minus whatever small refund I get for covid stuff).  I skied 17 days this year.  13 at Sugarbush, 1 at Windham, and 3 at Aspen.  At just this level, my per day cost was $59.  I'm absolutely thrilled with this value.  And this doesn't include the 7 days of family passes I used for my kids that got me a discount off of full retail.  And it also doesn't include the fact that I really didn't have to make "reservations" in advance.  Just that flexibility alone was worth it this year.  Other than the day at Windham, I experienced very few crowds.

To address the Killington thing...I'm not sure.  I thought that I might ski some days at K or Stratton, but ended up skipping them this year.  Like Cdskier, I drive up from NJ so I see a scenario of driving up to SB on Friday and skiing there Saturday then driving to K or Stratton and staying the night and skiing there on Sunday to shorten the drive home.  But I enjoy skiing SB so much that it's not a tremendous appeal to save 1-1.5 hours on Sunday.  I'm sure I'll do K at one point, but Stratton really doesn't have a ton of interest to me.

For me, the calculus is, will I get in enough weekends and holidays at SB and day trips at Windham to dollar cost average my pass to what I consider to be a reasonable level.  Reasonable to me is quad pack level.  So basically $71/ticket.  And I achieved that at 14 days.  Any trips out west are pure gravy to me.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 13, 2021)

i have always skied killington a lot. sugarbush switching from 5 days to full season increased my sugarbush usage for sure tho. my ikon this year was 13 days at sugarbush (to be 14), 4 days at killington (to be 5), 4 days at Stratton, and 1 day at loon. the rest was all indy and magic pass days. I'll end with 40 after this wkend.


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## cdskier (Apr 13, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That is so dumb.  It will end up costing more with the delays.  Perhaps POWDR should focus on their season pass business instead of chasing pennies on the dollar with IKON.  That's how they can make more money to pay for this half-completed lodge.  Pres Smith would be sick to see this mess at Killington.



Chasing pennies on the dollar? Weren't you the one that shared the info on what the resorts were being reimbursed? It sure wasn't pennies on the dollar... Look at it this way - if someone wants to ski K more than 5/7 days, then they're likely going to be a K pass-holder. If someone is skiing K 7 or less days, the question is would those people ski at K if it wasn't on Ikon? In many cases sure (in which case they're likely either buying day tickets or the cheaper discount K tickets they offered in the past so they could be making either more or less than the Ikon reimbursement. So this part probably breaks out fairly evenly and balances out). But in other cases, the answer is no. If K wasn't on Ikon, they'd get $0 from me. Me going there once was something like $85 in K's pocket if I remember the numbers that were posted correctly. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this boat. Overall I don't think they're getting less from Ikon than they would get on their own if they weren't part of Ikon. I really don't see how K not being part of Ikon would translate to enough additional season pass sales to offset the Ikon revenue.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Chasing pennies on the dollar? Weren't you the one that shared the info on what the resorts were being reimbursed? It sure wasn't pennies on the dollar... Look at it this way - if someone wants to ski K more than 5/7 days, then they're likely going to be a K pass-holder. If someone is skiing K 7 or less days, the question is would those people ski at K if it wasn't on Ikon? In many cases sure (in which case they're likely either buying day tickets or the cheaper discount K tickets they offered in the past so they could be making either more or less than the Ikon reimbursement. So this part probably breaks out fairly evenly and balances out). But in other cases, the answer is no. If K wasn't on Ikon, they'd get $0 from me. Me going there once was something like $85 in K's pocket if I remember the numbers that were posted correctly. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this boat. Overall I don't think they're getting less from Ikon than they would get on their own if they weren't part of Ikon. I really don't see how K not being part of Ikon would translate to enough additional season pass sales to offset the Ikon revenue.


My point is that passholders is the bigger business and should be the focus.  Specific example is that fellow POWDR resort Snowbird has 10,000 passholders.  The season pass price is now over $1,000.  So a high but reasonable estimate is that passholders represent $10 million of business.  Ikon is $1 million and then some once the revenue becomes over $1 million.  I am not a math expert, but $10 million is more than $1-2 million.  Additionally, in the case of Snowbird, the Ikon revenue is less because they split it with Alta.

Granted I don't know how many passholders Killington has or how many Ikon passes they see.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Chasing pennies on the dollar? Weren't you the one that shared the info on what the resorts were being reimbursed? It sure wasn't pennies on the dollar... Look at it this way - if someone wants to ski K more than 5/7 days, then they're likely going to be a K pass-holder. If someone is skiing K 7 or less days, the question is would those people ski at K if it wasn't on Ikon? In many cases sure (in which case they're likely either buying day tickets or the cheaper discount K tickets they offered in the past so they could be making either more or less than the Ikon reimbursement. So this part probably breaks out fairly evenly and balances out). But in other cases, the answer is no. If K wasn't on Ikon, they'd get $0 from me. Me going there once was something like $85 in K's pocket if I remember the numbers that were posted correctly. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this boat. Overall I don't think they're getting less from Ikon than they would get on their own if they weren't part of Ikon. I really don't see how K not being part of Ikon would translate to enough additional season pass sales to offset the Ikon revenue.


And the most recent post as to Ikon revenue sharing is something like $1 million guaranteed, passes billed against it at $37 a day until the $1 mill is exhausted.  Then $80 something every day beyond that.  So there needs to be about 28,000 Ikon skier days before even hitting the $80 something figure.

I also agree that Ikon is a replacement for day tickets but Powdr and consumers are not seeing it that way.  Folks see it as a replacement for a season pass.


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## cdskier (Apr 13, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> My point is that passholders is the bigger business and should be the focus.  Specific example is that fellow POWDR resort Snowbird has 10,000 passholders.  The season pass price is now over $1,000.  So a high but reasonable estimate is that passholders represent $10 million of business.  Ikon is $1 million and then some once the revenue becomes over $1 million.  I am not a math expert, but $10 million is more than $1-2 million.  Additionally, in the case of Snowbird, the Ikon revenue is less because they split it with Alta.
> 
> Granted I don't know how many passholders Killington has or how many Ikon passes they see.



You do realize it doesn't need to be one or the other, right? If they should focus on season pass-holders, does that mean they should ignore the $1M+ they get from Ikon? Even if we assumed pass-holders represent $10M in revenue (wouldn't surprise me if it is more than that at K...but still for simplicity we'll use that example), why should they throw away the $1M+ they get from Ikon? $10M + $1M is still more than $10M alone. It isn't like they're somehow focusing on or catering to Ikon holders. Delaying the K1 base lodge replacement project a bit longer has nothing to do with Ikon (heck, do we even know if it the delay is financially driven? Or is there another reason?) 

K is at a point where there really isn't much room for internal growth in season pass-holders. People know what K has to offer (longest season in the east, reliable snow conditions regardless of weather, lots of terrain, etc). If those things aren't selling someone on being a K pass-holder, then that person isn't going to be a K pass-holder with or without Ikon. How would you propose K drive an increase in season-passholders to offset a loss in the Ikon revenue? If K isn't part of Ikon, do you really believe there are that many Ikon holders that are going to suddenly become K pass-holders? I don't think K is just being part of Ikon for the hell of it. They have access to the numbers and clearly they believe they're making more money with Ikon than they would be without Ikon.



thetrailboss said:


> I also agree that Ikon is a replacement for day tickets but Powdr and consumers are not seeing it that way.  Folks see it as a replacement for a season pass.



I don't really agree in K's situation as a partner resort. Ikon can only replace a K season pass if that person is ok with not skiing K that many days. And in that case, that person really wasn't a "loyal" K skier to begin with. If someone truly loves what K has to offer, then Ikon doesn't cut it with maxing out at 5/7 days. For the typical K skier, there aren't a ton of other Ikon resorts they're likely to ski in the East to make up for only having 5/7 days at K. I could be wrong, but I've always believed K's largest "audience" was the NYC metro market. For the NYC metro market, the main Ikon options would be K, Stratton, and Windham with Sugarbush being an option for some but also too far for many others. The Boyne resorts rarely enter the picture for NYC metro area skiers. Windham is a mediocre day trip option at best. So that leaves mainly Stratton as the major Ikon destination for the NYC market. I just don't see that many people jumping from a K season pass to Ikon and skiing most of their days at Stratton instead of K. 

The Utah/SLC market is very different from what K has to deal with. In the SLC market, you have 21 Ikon partner days at resorts within roughly 30 miles plus an unlimited option in that same range. I can see how for Alta/Snowbird you could potentially replace a stand-alone pass to those resorts with Ikon if you're not somehow tied to Alta or Snowbird. For NYC your closest Ikon option is 130 miles away and your closest unlimited option is over 200 miles away. It just doesn't make that much sense here in our market. This is why I don't believe that simply focusing on somehow generating more revenue from season pass-holders than they would get from Ikon is a viable option for K.


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## ss20 (Apr 14, 2021)

I am a loyal Killington skier, but a tourist still nonetheless and don't have real estate ties in the area.  So I did Ikon Base, used up all 5 of my K days, then got a spring pass using $50 in credit I had last year.  That's a great deal.  If K got $80 per day from me on Ikon that's $400, then another $200 in $$$ from the spring pass I got.  That's $600 so almost a season pass to Killington....but I only skied their 10-12 days...so $60 per day in revenue to K.  If I had the full pass I would've done more skiing at Killington, and they would've made less money per day on me if I had gotten 25 days there and gotten a full pass.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I am a loyal Killington skier, but a tourist still nonetheless and don't have real estate ties in the area.  So I did Ikon Base, used up all 5 of my K days, then got a spring pass using $50 in credit I had last year.  That's a great deal.  If K got $80 per day from me on Ikon that's $400, then another $200 in $$$ from the spring pass I got.  That's $600 so almost a season pass to Killington....but I only skied their 10-12 days...so $60 per day in revenue to K.  If I had the full pass I would've done more skiing at Killington, and they would've made less money per day on me if I had gotten 25 days there and gotten a full pass.



That's a good point. If someone's argument is that Ikon doesn't bring in a high enough rate per day, then many season pass-holders are often bringing in even less. Right now SB only got about $20/day from me this season. And while some pass-holders like to spend a lot of money on F&B either for lunch or apres, etc, there are also a lot that don't spend much at the mountain.

Don't get me wrong, I still think season passholders should be the "priority" in terms of somehow being rewarded for their loyalty as they provide a reliable up front revenue source for the resorts that fund a lot of off-season maintenance, etc (i.e. maybe give your season pass-holders some additional perks via better discounts on lodging or on-mountain food, etc). I just don't agree that resorts should ignore/avoid partnerships like Ikon and cater exclusively to pass-holders.


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## Domeskier (Apr 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That's a good point. If someone's argument is that Ikon doesn't bring in a high enough rate per day, then many season pass-holders are often bringing in even less.


Except that a rate-per-day comparison between Ikon users and season pass holders is largely meaningless.  The rate-per-day metric matters for Ikon users because the resort only gets paid if the skier shows up.  The rate-per-day of a season pass holder should have no meaningful effect on a resort's bottom line.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Except that a rate-per-day comparison between Ikon users and season pass holders is largely meaningless.  The rate-per-day metric matters for Ikon users because the resort only gets paid if the skier shows up.  The rate-per-day of a season pass holder should have no meaningful effect on a resort's bottom line.


Yes and no. Ikon apparently guarantees a certain amount of revenue regardless of how many show up ($1M was the supposed amount). Once you get a certain number of Ikon visits, then you get an additional daily rate per visit.


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## Domeskier (Apr 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Yes and no. Ikon apparently guarantees a certain amount of revenue regardless of how many show up ($1M was the supposed amount). Once you get a certain number of Ikon visits, then you get an additional daily rate per visit.


Oh, I see.  Hard to pass up a deal like that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> You do realize it doesn't need to be one or the other, right? If they should focus on season pass-holders, does that mean they should ignore the $1M+ they get from Ikon? Even if we assumed pass-holders represent $10M in revenue (wouldn't surprise me if it is more than that at K...but still for simplicity we'll use that example), why should they throw away the $1M+ they get from Ikon? $10M + $1M is still more than $10M alone. It isn't like they're somehow focusing on or catering to Ikon holders. Delaying the K1 base lodge replacement project a bit longer has nothing to do with Ikon (heck, do we even know if it the delay is financially driven? Or is there another reason?)


So a few points.  First, you're looking at this on the micro level (revenue per day) than the macro level (overall revenue).  Second, the point that you're missing is that those who are passholders at a lot of these partner resorts are NOT happy with the crowding and the issues created by Ikon.  So a lot of them are dropping their passes or threatening to do so.  WHY would you risk losing someone who represents at least $1,000 in revenue for someone who, at most, represents $200-480 or so?  And even then you are competing with other resorts to get that revenue?  You wouldn't.  That's why you are seeing places like Big Sky, Brighton, Jackson Hole, and even Crown's own Aspen resorts restricting Ikon access because their very own passholders are not happy with the crowding issues and are leaving.   Hell, Aspen has even quit Ikon base altogether and it is an owner of Alterra.  What does that tell you?  

You are right that, to some extent, the two can coexist provided that there is no conflict.  Here there is and POWDR ain't doing nothing about it.  But the problem becomes that the ones who are paying the freight are asking, "why am I paying this much for an experience that is now more crowded?" and are leaving.  Normally you do not want that.  Boyne, Jackson Hole, and even Aspen are indeed responding to this concern while POWDR is ignoring it completely and even acting adverse to the largest portion of their business.  Why is that?  It flies in the face of normal business logic.   

My point with POWDR is that it is trying to have its cake and eat it too.  And I have reason to believe it is not working out because they are losing passholders and can't pay to hold onto good staff or finish this project at what is supposed to be a flagship resort.  As I predicted last year, instead of evaluating Ikon to appease passholders they just increased the pass price to make up for the loss of revenue.  They want to have Ikon AND pass revenue.  But in some places that creates the conflict I've outlined.  

Now getting back to my bigger point--and that is POWDR not finishing the lodge.  Ultimately only POWDR knows why.  POWDR is not managing season passholder expectations well and, at least out here, has lost passholder business because of it.  

And finally my comments about Ikon are not at all meant to be personal.  I get the sense that you are taking it that way.  I'm glad that you are having a good experience with Ikon and it works for you.  As you said the dynamics are different on the east coast.  They are not out here.


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## cdskier (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So a few points.  First, you're looking at this on the micro level (revenue per day) than the macro level (overall revenue).  Second, the point that you're missing is that those who are passholders at a lot of these partner resorts are NOT happy with the crowding and the issues created by Ikon.  So a lot of them are dropping their passes or threatening to do so.  WHY would you risk losing someone who represents at least $1,000 in revenue for someone who, at most, represents $200-480 or so?  And even then you are competing with other resorts to get that revenue?  You wouldn't.  That's why you are seeing places like Big Sky, Brighton, Jackson Hole, and even Crown's own Aspen resorts restricting Ikon access because their very own passholders are not happy with the crowding issues and are leaving.   Hell, Aspen has even quit Ikon base altogether and it is an owner of Alterra.  What does that tell you?
> 
> You are right that, to some extent, the two can coexist provided that there is no conflict.  Here there is and POWDR ain't doing nothing about it.  But the problem becomes that the ones who are paying the freight are asking, "why am I paying this much for an experience that is now more crowded?" and are leaving.  Normally you do not want that.  Boyne, Jackson Hole, and even Aspen are indeed responding to this concern while POWDR is ignoring it completely and even acting adverse to the largest portion of their business.  Why is that?  It flies in the face of normal business logic.
> 
> ...



I don't really take it personally. I just think at times you let your dislike of Ikon cloud your judgement about anything Ikon/Alterra related. Your main issue is with POWDR and not really Alterra/Ikon. Don't blame Ikon for decisions made (or problems ignored) by POWDR. As you pointed out, some other partner resorts have made adjustments to their partnership with Ikon. Don't forget that Ikon (and Alterra) is only a few years years old. Adjustments to access levels should be expected as they learn what works and what doesn't and see actual real usage data. That's the right way to do things and shows that Alterra is open to change. Using changes as some sort of proof that the pass has major problems is flawed logic. How many products are ever released as a 1.0 version that are perfect out of the gate?

I really think your comments that pass-holders are unhappy and leaving are blown a bit out of proportion. Or at least they certainly seem to be in the East (I'll give you that your views on the west may be valid, but don't forget that the primary focus of this forum is the northeast). I haven't really heard much from any of the K people I know about being unhappy about Ikon and dropping their K season passes as a result. I also just did a quick search for Ikon on Kzone and didn't see much there. 1 person wished POWDR would create their own pass of only their own resorts instead of partnering with Ikon. Others attributed holidays being not too crowded at K to Ikon blackouts (they were happy about this). Others liked that K was including Ikon in the high-end Beast 365 offering. Granted it was only a quick search, but if a lot of people were unhappy, I would have expected to see some complaints and grumblings there.

Do you have any knowledge that K season passholder expectations aren't being managed well by POWDR? Or are you just using your western experiences and assuming the same thing is happening in the east?

And you're right that only POWDR knows why they delayed the finishing of the lodge further beyond the initial COVID related delays. In light of that though, I think it is a rather large jump to say they could mitigate these problems if they focused on season passholder revenue and ditched the Ikon revenue (as you essentially said a few posts back). If POWDR was really losing as many passholders as you think they are due to Ikon (and if Ikon isn't at least generating enough revenue to replace that), then why would they continue to be part of Ikon? It just doesn't make sense for them to stick with Ikon if they were truly overall generating less revenue as a result of the Ikon partnership than they were prior to Ikon.


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## skiur (Apr 14, 2021)

Don't forget that you get a free ikon base pass if you get the Killington 365 pass.  So Killington is using the ikon pass as a selling point to get people to buy a K pass.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

skiur said:


> Don't forget that you get a free ikon base pass if you get the Killington 365 pass.  So Killington is using the ikon pass as a selling point to get people to buy a K pass.


Is that still the case for 21-22?


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## AdironRider (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> My point is that passholders is the bigger business and should be the focus.  Specific example is that fellow POWDR resort Snowbird has 10,000 passholders.  The season pass price is now over $1,000.  So a high but reasonable estimate is that passholders represent $10 million of business.  Ikon is $1 million and then some once the revenue becomes over $1 million.  I am not a math expert, but $10 million is more than $1-2 million.  Additionally, in the case of Snowbird, the Ikon revenue is less because they split it with Alta.
> 
> Granted I don't know how many passholders Killington has or how many Ikon passes they see.



Passholders are not as big of a deal as you think they are. Places like Snowbird and Jackson do well over a 1-2 million a day in business over holiday periods. So all 10,000 snowbird passholders make up the equivalent of 5ish holiday days of people paying full freight, eating out, buying retail, etc.  Passholders rarely buy lessons, even more rare buy retail, maybe have a beer vs a 100 dollar per person lunch etc. Guess who they care about more.

You, the season pass holder, are not special or important when it comes to a ski resort. Plenty think they are, but the reality is much different.


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## skiur (Apr 14, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Is that still the case for 21-22?





skiur said:


> Don't forget that you get a free ikon base pass if you get the Killington 365 pass.  So Killington is using the ikon pass as a selling point to get people to buy a K pass.





thetrailboss said:


> Is that still the case for 21-22?



Yes


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2021)

skiur said:


> Yes


Really?  At Snowbird, Deer Valley, and other places it is no longer included with the premium pass option and is now an add-on.  Weird.


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## machski (Apr 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> So a few points.  First, you're looking at this on the micro level (revenue per day) than the macro level (overall revenue).  Second, the point that you're missing is that those who are passholders at a lot of these partner resorts are NOT happy with the crowding and the issues created by Ikon.  So a lot of them are dropping their passes or threatening to do so.  WHY would you risk losing someone who represents at least $1,000 in revenue for someone who, at most, represents $200-480 or so?  And even then you are competing with other resorts to get that revenue?  You wouldn't.  That's why you are seeing places like Big Sky, Brighton, Jackson Hole, and even Crown's own Aspen resorts restricting Ikon access because their very own passholders are not happy with the crowding issues and are leaving.   Hell, Aspen has even quit Ikon base altogether and it is an owner of Alterra.  What does that tell you?
> 
> You are right that, to some extent, the two can coexist provided that there is no conflict.  Here there is and POWDR ain't doing nothing about it.  But the problem becomes that the ones who are paying the freight are asking, "why am I paying this much for an experience that is now more crowded?" and are leaving.  Normally you do not want that.  Boyne, Jackson Hole, and even Aspen are indeed responding to this concern while POWDR is ignoring it completely and even acting adverse to the largest portion of their business.  Why is that?  It flies in the face of normal business logic.
> 
> ...


The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder.  Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass?  So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders.  But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)?  Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on.  Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket.  It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 15, 2021)

machski said:


> The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder.  Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass?  So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders.  But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)?  Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on.  Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket.  It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.



Makes one think - is A Basin doing limited sales for that exact reason?  They want to hopefully get more lift ticket sales because they know they will come?  Early pass sales are great for generating revenue that be used for improvements during the off season.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2021)

machski said:


> The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder.  Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass?  So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders.  But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)?  Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on.  Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket.  It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.


Again, $10 million vs. $1-2 million.

And my point has been misconstrued to "only" catering to season passholders.  That is not what I am saying.


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## machski (Apr 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, $10 million vs. $1-2 million.
> 
> And my point has been misconstrued to "only" catering to season passholders.  That is not what I am saying.


I get that point, but the $10 million is from a "relatively" small pool and slight changes in the whims of these folks could drastically affect a resort's revenue stream with few people changing.  Where as the $1-2 million revenue comes from a large and likely traveling and not local (IE better potential for added revenue from those customers) and the pattern changes of a relative few won't impact that revenue stream to the extent pattern changes amongst pure passholders would.  You are not going to go with one or the other when you can have both.  Perhaps a better balance needs to be reached, but you had better know where the headache is driven from.  Unless you have hard data the resort has, you can make assumptions on what is driving the headaches, but you might be wrong.


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## 1dog (Apr 15, 2021)

Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either. 
Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2021)

1dog said:


> Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either.
> Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.


Wow.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2021)

machski said:


> I get that point, but the $10 million is from a "relatively" small pool and slight changes in the whims of these folks could drastically affect a resort's revenue stream with few people changing.


Which is why pissing off a lot of those folks is not a good idea.


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## abc (Apr 15, 2021)

1dog said:


> Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either.
> Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.


No credit card??? So what happen to those of us who want to use a credit card to accumulate points? We can't? 

Or I'm missing something...


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

abc said:


> No credit card??? So what happen to those of us who want to use a credit card to accumulate points? We can't?
> 
> Or I'm missing something...


If you want to pay in full you can use a credit card. You apparently just can't use the credit card to pay with their payment plan I think is what 1dog is saying (I've never used those payment plans...so no personal experience there).


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2021)

cdskier said:


> If you want to pay in full you can use a credit card. You apparently just can't use the credit card to pay with their payment plan I think is what 1dog is saying (I've never used those payment plans...so no personal experience there).


That is really weird.


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## cdskier (Apr 15, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> That is really weird.


Do banks normally let people pay off loans with a credit card? Realistically that's what a payment plan is...it is a low interest/no interest loan. From my perspective it really isn't all that weird. FWIW, there are quite a few places that use Affirm (the company Ikon chose to use for this).


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## abc (Apr 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Do banks normally let people pay off loans with a credit card?


But do banks allow people to pay off their loans with a debit card?


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## 1dog (Apr 16, 2021)

abc said:


> But do banks allow people to pay off their loans with a debit card?


Sure, no financial institution is ever going to turn away a payment, regardless of how it's made - unless it costs them money. I used to have a dentist who paid everything ( including his mortgage) with a cc so he could utilize the points. Most banks or mortgage note holders won't allow that because of the transaction costs.. Both sides incur costs- unless they ( consumers) don't pay of balances every month. Merchants get whacked with up to 3% charge - it all depends on # of monthly transactions and the avg size of transactions.  It's the main reason I use AMEX ( the most expensive trans cost of any card btw)

Just don't want yet another app and firm to be paying too. Like everyone who gives interest-free payments, they hope and pray - with good track record - that most consumers will draw it out and fees will be incurred.  If you want to play that investment, MC/Visa - were and are both solid investments over time. They make $$ regardless of the economy. Like stock traders. . . . .  or RE brokers - whether you're buying or selling. . . . they win on fees.


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2021)

abc said:


> But do banks allow people to pay off their loans with a debit card?



Apparently over 60% of the top lenders in the US allowed debit cards to be used as of a 2016 survey, but most still do not allow CCs. Seems to really come down to transaction costs and fees for the lenders being the driving factor.


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## abc (Apr 16, 2021)

So it's not about the installment plan being a no interest loan then?


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 16, 2021)

a debit card is cash, its just drawing cash from your checking account.

a credit card is debt, and unless you are refinancing, you generally cannot pay debt with debt.


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## 1dog (Apr 16, 2021)

abc said:


> So it's not about the installment plan being a no interest loan then?


Alterra told me they get paid up front from
Affirm. They take the risk and the ( potential) fees.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 16, 2021)

1dog said:


> Alterra told me they get paid up front from
> Affirm. They take the risk and the ( potential) fees.



i work for a SaaS provider and this is how it works for us. our clients fund, we get paid the value of their 3 year contract up front, and they pay the funder month to month. we eat the interest and fees. we also take on the risk of the client cancelling before their term is up, tho our T&Cs protect us somewhat. its not uncommon at all. our funder does not accept credit cards, because its a loan and you generally cannot pay debt with debt. exact same reason why i cannot put my car lease payments on a credit card.


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## cdskier (Apr 16, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i work for a SaaS provider and this is how it works for us. our clients fund, we get paid the value of their 3 year contract up front, and they pay the funder month to month. we eat the interest and fees. we also take on the risk of the client cancelling before their term is up, tho our T&Cs protect us somewhat. its not uncommon at all. our funder does not accept credit cards, because its a loan and you generally cannot pay debt with debt. exact same reason why i cannot put my car lease payments on a credit card.



If this Affirm usage for installment payment plans is what people are going to criticize Alterra for now, then I'd say they're in pretty good shape comparatively speaking.


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## 1dog (Apr 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> If this Affirm usage for installment payment plans is what people are going to criticize Alterra for now, then I'd say they're in pretty good shape comparatively speaking.


'specially if they pick up Jay - or partner. s/b bargain basement prices and  a buyer should drive up higher priced real estate around the hill. Right now, who would risk $400K on a condo?


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## skiur (Apr 16, 2021)

1dog said:


> 'specially if they pick up Jay - or partner. s/b bargain basement prices and  a buyer should drive up higher priced real estate around the hill. Right now, who would risk $400K on a condo?



Condos are being sold almost instantly right now.  No inspection, sight unseen and selling in no time.  Lots of people are risking 400k on condos.


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## 1dog (Apr 16, 2021)

Right. Forgot about the Great Migration. Gonna be some great deals on RE once rates rise. People must be assuming some take-over at some point. It's not Haystack, that's for sure.


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## abc (Apr 17, 2021)

1dog said:


> Gonna be some great deals on RE once rates rise.


That’ll be a pretty long wait (for “rate rises”)


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## 1dog (Apr 17, 2021)

abc said:


> That’ll be a pretty long wait (for “rate rises”)


Agree.


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