# Stenger and Quiros Ousted from Management of Jay Peak and Burke



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

For those not following the Burke thread, we now know that yesterday federal officials from the SEC paid a visit to Burke Mountain, seized information, changed the locks on the buildings, and began an investigation onsite into alleged mismanagement of EB-5 funds for the QHotel project.  

WCAX is now reporting that as part of that investigation that Messrs. Stenger and Quiros have been relieved of their management authority for both Jay and Burke and that an independent resort and hotel management company are now in control of the operations, pending the outcome of the federal investigations.  

http://www.wcax.com/story/31723261/outside-company-managing-jay-peak-q-burke

This is just surreal.


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## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

WHAT! I thought Magic was a mess, my god. So does Jay get a new owner for next season I wonder?


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## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> WHAT! I thought Magic was a mess, my god. So does Jay get a new owner for next season I wonder?




Agree!  Prior to this I wasn't sure whether Magic's or Burke's management was the bigger display of incompetence in the VT Ski Industry.  Burke just took a BIG lead in that display of incompetence!!


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## wa-loaf (Apr 14, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Agree!  Prior to this I wasn't sure whether Magic's or Burke's management was the bigger display of incompetence in the VT Ski Industry.  Burke just took a BIG lead in that display of incompetence!!



I don't think it's who's more incompetent, but who had more money to be incompetent with ...


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## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

Magic is just incompetent, these guys seem very, very competent in what they're doing, just so happens what they're doing is a crime.

Does Jay stay open late like they usually do with this whole mess or just shut it down and go on life support?


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> Magic is just incompetent, these guys seem very, very competent in what they're doing, just so happens what they're doing is a crime.
> 
> Does Jay stay open late like they usually do with this whole mess or just shut it down and go on life support?



Agreed.  This goes beyond incompetence.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

wa-loaf said:


> I don't think it's who's more incompetent, but who had more money to be incompetent with ...



Yeah, this is in the category of where there is a large pile of money there are likely to be at least suspicions that things inappropriate may be afoot.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

This just went to a whole other level:



> SEC Case Freezes Assets of Ski Resort Steeped in Fraudulent EB-5 Offerings
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 2016-69
> Washington D.C., April 14, 2016 — The Securities and Exchange Commission today announced fraud charges and an asset freeze against a Vermont-based ski resort and related businesses allegedly misusing millions of dollars raised through investments solicited under the EB-5 Immigrant Investor Program. The SEC’s case was unsealed today in federal court in Miami, and the court has appointed a receiver over the companies to prevent any further spending of investor assets.
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

http://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-69.html


Good bye Ary, you thief!!!!!!!!!!


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## sull1102 (Apr 14, 2016)

Can't wait to see how PeakCM is involved here


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## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> Can't wait to see how PeakCM is involved here



Directly, probably none whatsoever as they are 2 completely separate EB-5 projects where the fund raising occurred at completely different times AND none of the EB-5 money that Peak raised has been released from escrow thus far.

Indirectly, the already delayed release of the EB-5 money that they have in escrow because of delays from the INS verifying the VISA's associated with the EB-5 investors, will likely be delayed further because the the creation of greater levels of oversight to make sure that those investment EB-5 funds are going exactly where they should be

My guess is that today's culmination of the Stenger/Quiros EB-5 investigation will likely remove the chance that Peak gets their EB-5 funds released anywhere in the near future and as such they (Peak) won't be able to complete the West Lake Snowmaking project and start the new base lodge at Carinthia this summer as planned


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## trackbiker (Apr 14, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Directly, probably none whatsoever as they are 2 completely separate EB-5 projects where the fund raising occurred at completely different times AND none of the EB-5 money that Peak raised has been released from escrow thus far.
> 
> Indirectly, the already delayed release of the EB-5 money that they have in escrow because of delays from the INS verifying the VISA's associated with the EB-5 investors, will likely be delayed further because the the creation of greater levels of oversight to make sure that those investment EB-5 funds are going exactly where they should be
> 
> My guess is that today's culmination of the Stenger/Quiros EB-5 investigation will likely remove the chance that Peak gets their EB-5 funds released anywhere in the near future and as such they (Peak) won't be able to complete the West Lake Snowmaking project and start the new base lodge at Carinthia this summer as planned



Me thinks you have your "Peaks" confused. PeakCM vs. Peak Resorts.


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## Sons of Thunder (Apr 14, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Directly, probably none whatsoever as they are 2 completely separate EB-5 projects where the fund raising occurred at completely different times AND none of the EB-5 money that Peak raised has been released from escrow thus far.
> 
> Indirectly, the already delayed release of the EB-5 money that they have in escrow because of delays from the INS verifying the VISA's associated with the EB-5 investors, will likely be delayed further because the the creation of greater levels of oversight to make sure that those investment EB-5 funds are going exactly where they should be
> 
> My guess is that today's culmination of the Stenger/Quiros EB-5 investigation will likely remove the chance that Peak gets their EB-5 funds released anywhere in the near future and as such they (Peak) won't be able to complete the West Lake Snowmaking project and start the new base lodge at Carinthia this summer as planned



I think he's referring to the general contractor that built the hotel, PeakCM, which has done all the work for Jay/Q in recent years.

But as I mentioned in the Big Burke thread, Peak (Mt. Snow) people must be so pissed right now. Those funds are going to be in escrow for a loong time.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 14, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> Can't wait to see how PeakCM is involved here



Yeah, since they've only existed for a few years...

I'd say Mike's Electric is gonna be scrutinized, as well as any other connected companies that have done business in this mess.


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## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

trackbiker said:


> Me thinks you have your "Peaks" confused. PeakCM vs. Peak Resorts.



100% guilty as Quiros on this one


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## amf (Apr 14, 2016)

Interesting. Always wondered about the Q in Q-Burke. When I was up at Jay this year I notice two mug shots of Quiros and Stenger behind the front desk at one of the hotels. I thought at the time that Quiros made Putin look like a slacker - now I know. Stenger just looked like his eager lap dog. Lotsa bad blood going down with those deals.


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## halfpintvt (Apr 14, 2016)

WANTED, FOR SECURITY FRAUD!


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## MG Skier (Apr 14, 2016)

First hand, I really like skiing and staying at Jay. I have only skied Burke once (When it was Burke circa 2006).

Boom, S.E.C.

I hope the Burke issues are resolved. I'm not sure we will ever see a West Bowl at Jay. I just wanted the terrain.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 14, 2016)

Here is the full SEC filing

http://static.lakana.com/nxsglobal/.../Quiros, Stenger Documents_8089711_ver1.0.pdf


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> *I'm not sure we will ever see a West Bowl at Jay.*




I'm filing for EB-5 money for that, and I only need one $500,000 EB-5 VISA.

*MATERIALS & ALLOCATION:*

Nitro piston air guns - $7,500
Rounds 10.5 grain .177 Caliber Pellets - $150
FTE Hours - $80,000
Garbage bags - $50
Beer, Food, & Party supplies - $412,250


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## MG Skier (Apr 14, 2016)

Ok Then!


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## Domeskier (Apr 14, 2016)

What kind of jail time are these guys looking at?


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## mriceyman (Apr 14, 2016)

Give you guys credit.. Been calling this for months. I just hope innocent people in this disaster dont get dragged into the gutter with QandS


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 14, 2016)

unbelievable, yet totally believable


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## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

Just posted on Jay Peaks FB page....

"Sorry we took a few extra minutes reaching out folks. As you may have heard, we here at Jay Peak will be working with Leisure Hotels and Resorts (LHR) to continue managing Jay Peak same as it ever was. Current ownership is working with state and federal officials surrounding their ongoing investigation relative to the EB5 Foreign Investment Program. That process is distinct and not connected to the day to day operations of the mountain, indoor waterpark, golf course, lodging or any of our amenities that continue to be available on a daily basis here. Our longtime CMO Steve Wright has recently been named General Manager and he, along with LHR will be responsible for the day to day operations of the resort.We are anticipating our busiest summer on record with music, conferences, almost 70 weddings and a host of other business segments and we look forward to keeping on. It is an awkward time for us on the ground as well and we appreciate you giving us some room to figure all of this out. We will absolutely keep you in the loop as this takes more shape and appreciate your support as we move toward a much more sustainable future. We will be operating for skiing and riding this week and through the weekend with Ski School reopening for Sat. April 16th and have decided to continue operations through next week, weather permitting on both sides of the mountain, through the 24th. We’ll take a look at conditions thereafter and make a call about going for May.
Again, thanks so much- we appreciate your support more than you know."

and in the same thread in a response to who is running day to day operations currently

" The SEC has appointed LHR to run the resort with Steve (Wright). Personal assets of Bill and Ariel are frozen, they are still considered the owners and are working with State and federal officials-they just don't have any day to day management authority."


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

Well at least Jay Peak is in the hands of someone competent.

I'm going to assume Burke is still technically run by Ary Jr until I hear otherwise.


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## Jully (Apr 14, 2016)

Nice to see Steve Wright getting the GM spot for the next little bit at least! Always had a lot of respect for him.


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## Nick (Apr 14, 2016)

Wow that's crazy. I just saw your post on FB about this and was reading the SEC article.


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## Zermatt (Apr 14, 2016)

Any of you paid for 2016/2017 season passes yet?

Might want to hold off on that.  

Should be a matter of hours before they declare bankruptcy and anyone who paid for a season pass already becomes on unsecured creditor.


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## podunk77 (Apr 14, 2016)

Ary's going to Q-Prison.


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## WoodCore (Apr 14, 2016)




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## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

> Investigators said they linked the defrauded money to more than 100 accounts at 10 banks.



Ugh...  I hate taking the time to open a single legal account, let alone 100 illegal ones.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

This story is now on TGR.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

Full one hour briefing here:

http://www.wcax.com/story/31725401/...y-peak-q-burke-owners-committed-massive-fraud


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

I just read the complaint.  they're fooked.  they took the investor money to purchase jay.


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## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I just read the complaint.  they're fooked.  they took the investor money to purchase jay.



What was the money earmarked for?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> What was the money earmarked for?



EB-5 projects.  The purchase of the ski area itself was NOT an EB-5 project.


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## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> EB-5 projects.  The purchase of the ski area itself was NOT an EB-5 project.



Meaning, the hotels etc...?

So they didn't own Jay outright yet?  Or they took the investor's cash and paid off loans on Jay?

Then borrowed money to replace the investor cash earmarked for specific projects?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Meaning, the hotels etc...?
> 
> So they didn't own Jay outright yet?  Or they took the investor's cash and paid off loans on Jay?
> 
> Then borrowed money to replace the investor cash earmarked for specific projects?



I read the complaint very quickly, but if I read the complaint correctly, they took money earmarked for EB-5 project(s) (e.g. hotels) and used the money to pay back a loan for the purchase of the ski resort itself.


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## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I read the complaint very quickly, but if I read the complaint correctly, they took money earmarked for EB-5 project(s) (e.g. hotels) and used the money to pay back a loan for the purchase of the ski resort itself.



Wow - shouldn't the investors have seen that way sooner?  If a bunch of people pony up 500K, and the company they are investing in suddenly has no cash on hand, and suddenly is (presumably) in debt, wouldn't that be a red flag?  

And the bank getting paid off...they don't ask where this cash comes from?

I wonder if they would have got through this if the season wasn't so terrible...


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I read the complaint very quickly, but if I read the complaint correctly, they took money earmarked for EB-5 project(s) (e.g. hotels) and used the money to pay back a loan for the purchase of the ski resort itself.



i dont know if there was a loan involved but they took the eb5 money, tens of millions, and transferred it to the previous owner to close on the jay deal.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Wow - shouldn't the investors have seen that way sooner?  If a bunch of people pony up 500K, and the company they are investing in suddenly has no cash on hand, and suddenly is (presumably) in debt, wouldn't that be a red flag?


 Most people who engage in fraud don't tell their victims that they are being defrauded.  They also don't like to leave evidence where people can see it.



tnt1234 said:


> And the bank getting paid off...they don't ask where this cash comes from?


Nope.  There is nothing that I have seen that should have raised red flags with the bank.  It's not like it was paid for in cash with cocaine residue.



tnt1234 said:


> I wonder if they would have got through this if the season wasn't so terrible...


The complaint makes it quite clear that the shit began hitting the fan before this season began.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> *I wonder if they would have got through this if the season wasn't so terrible*...



Most likely, but Ponzi schemes typically end when you hit a patch of economic hardship.  Same with Madoff.  

Eventually the wheels would have come off this thing relatively soon, because Quiros was pilfering way too much money, relatively speaking.  Whereas Madoff was an evil genius, Quiros was an evil idiot.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> i dont know if there was a loan involved but they took the eb5 money, tens of millions, and transferred it to the previous owner to close on the jay deal.



How would the investors know?  they dont get the bank statements.  who knows what they got from Stenger/Q.

the money was transferred from the bank it was in under the previous owners of Jay, to a financial company where the broker was Q's former son in law.  They also placed the money into margin accounts, so they borrowed off the collateral of the investors funds.


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## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Most people who engage in fraud don't tell their victims that they are being defrauded.  They also don't like to leave evidence where people can see it.
> 
> Nope.  There is nothing that I have seen that should have raised red flags with the bank.  It's not like it was paid for in cash with cocaine residue.
> 
> The complaint makes it quite clear that the shit began hitting the fan before this season began.



Ha.  

Crazy stuff...


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Most people who engage in fraud don't tell their victims that they are being defrauded.  They also don't like to leave evidence where people can see it.
> 
> Nope.  There is nothing that I have seen that should have raised red flags with the bank.  It's not like it was paid for in cash with cocaine residue.
> 
> The complaint makes it quite clear that the shit began hitting the fan before this season began.



There is an indication in the complaint that the broker at raymond james, Q's ex son in law, was aware of the fraud.  Before the money was transferred from the bank under the control of the previous owner, their lawyer advised and the broker acknowledged that the funds were not to be used for the purchase of jay.  within days though, the money was in fact, transferred into new accounts and then subsequently used to satisfy the sale obligation.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> There is an indication in the complaint that the broker at raymond james, Q's ex son in law, was aware of the fraud.  Before the money was transferred from the bank under the control of the previous owner, their lawyer advised and the broker acknowledged that the funds were not to be used for the purchase of jay.  within days though, the money was in fact, transferred into new accounts and then subsequently used to satisfy the sale obligation.



But none of that attaches to the bank that took the money for payment on the loan.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

Yeah, sorry Jay skiers.  The money for the Bonnie Six Pack had to pay for Daddy's new pad at Trump Place in New York City.  Better luck next time.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Here is the apartment that Quiros purchased.  I am surprised that it took over two months to close.  Moving money around all sorts of shell companies must take time.

http://therealdeal.com/2013/08/13/ilan-bracha-takes-two-years-to-sell-trump-place-abode/


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Sorry, Newport.  




.


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## amf (Apr 14, 2016)

Yep, I think that Newport hole will stick around for awhile.


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## Zermatt (Apr 14, 2016)

Nobody seems to be focusing on how this is going to play out....Jay Peak is done!  The assets have been put into receivership by the federal government with the sole purpose of getting the investors money back.  Nobody knows how that will effect day to day operations of the resort.  I can paint a scenario that is not good.

Jay Peak has no credit right now, they have no access to money.  People don't work for free for very long.  That is one issue.

Nobody is going to give Jay Peak any money to hold.  For example, season pass purchases, deposits for stays, etc.  Confidence among the consumers will dry up rapidly.

This was not a normal financial default allowing for an orderly transition of ownership.  Investors' money was stollen and now the SEC has seized whatever they can to try to get it back.  

Maybe I'm wrong, does anybody have an example of another ski resort that has been seized by the SEC in the past?


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## Jully (Apr 14, 2016)

billo said:


> Nobody seems to be focusing on how this is going to play out....Jay Peak is done!  The assets have been put into receivership by the federal government with the sole purpose of getting the investors money back.  Nobody knows how that will effect day to day operations of the resort.  I can paint a scenario that is not good.
> 
> Jay Peak has no credit right now, they have no access to money.  People don't work for free for very long.  That is one issue.
> 
> ...



No knowledge of a resort being seized. However, if Jay really does completely run out of cash, I'm sure there would be some operator agreement that could be made. It's not like Jay is going to sit idle for a season.


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## eatskisleep (Apr 14, 2016)

So... about that Jay Peak expansion...


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## abc (Apr 14, 2016)

> Wow - shouldn't the investors have seen that way sooner? If a bunch of people pony up 500K, and the company they are investing in suddenly has no cash on hand, and suddenly is (presumably) in debt, wouldn't that be a red flag?


actually, it did raised red flag with investor

last year, CBS 60 Minute did a program about it. An investor from Scotland was interviewed. that was his suspicion, where did the money gone?

I bet he and other investor got the attention of the SEC.

P.s.

I got the impfression many in the industry thought these EB-5 investors are so rich they don't care about the return of their investment as long as they got their green card. I suspect some ARE. Problem is, there're others a bit more naive. They thought they can move to the US and grow their investment in the US!


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## Zermatt (Apr 14, 2016)

Why would it continue to run?  The investors want their money back and all of Jay Peak's assets are tainted.

Obviously, the best way to get all your money back is through an orderly sale or continued operation of the resorts, but no guarantee they will wait around for that to happen.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 14, 2016)

I am really not all that shocked with today's announcement.  What I am surprised at is that no government agency heads have rolled yet?  Here is a list of things that leave me wondering.

1) Is EB-5 considered state and or federal money, if so how did PeakCM get all of these no bid contracts?
2) Is PeakCM in bed with Quiros or Stenger and then had a falling out? 
3) How did the state let this go on for 8 years?  Heck the purchase ($625,000) and sale ($7m) of the land in Newport (I think it was Newport).  How did that not raise any red flags?  This was well known for a few years.
4) How did the state not even attempt to follow the money or better yet, why wasn't the state paying the bills when needed vs. paying Quiros/Stenger and leaving them to toss the money around?
5)  Will Peter Slumin' and others be forced to release their emails?  I am really curious to see how far this scam went?


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## Zermatt (Apr 14, 2016)

According to the government presentation today they will not face "jail time" only civil penalties.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

billo said:


> Why would it continue to run?  The investors want their money back and all of Jay Peak's assets are tainted.
> 
> Obviously, the best way to get all your money back is through an orderly sale or continued operation of the resorts, but no guarantee they will wait around for that to happen.



And if they don't wait around for that to happen they get $0.  You are being overly pessimistic.  Anything will sell for the right price.


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## Zermatt (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> And if they don't wait around for that to happen they get $0.  You are being overly pessimistic.  Anything will sell for the right price.



Agreed, I just watched some of the presentation.  Seems like there could be a way out where day to day operations continue.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

Steve Wright, new Jay GM, made a nice post on the Friends of Burke page.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## tnt1234 (Apr 14, 2016)

billo said:


> Why would it continue to run?  The investors want their money back and all of Jay Peak's assets are tainted.
> 
> Obviously, the best way to get all your money back is through an orderly sale or continued operation of the resorts, but no guarantee they will wait around for that to happen.



I'm not sure the ski operation is the same as the entity the foreign investors invested in.


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 14, 2016)

What I've been saying recently has come to light. Not surprised at all. Bad timing as I'm going there tomorrow with my wife and father for our spring skiing last hurrah.

The whole attitude of Jay has taken a downward spin since the new management. Now it's like a place I have to go to just to ski because they have more snow, even though I'd rather support ANY other area knowing how they do.

I have fingers and feelers outside just the ski industry up in the NEK and believe me the impact has been completely negative, they're ready for a change as well.

Let's hope Jay revives itself, humbles itself, and gets back to the roots of getting snow on the trails and opening up terrain for a long season. JPR is lucky, compared to Saddleback, an equally awesome mountain with financial troubles doing it the right way.

Long live Jay Peak and every other ski mountain plus more. But Screw the Q, I'll be up there tomorrow skiing his terrain. I'm sure he could care less of my opinion, still.


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## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 14, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> ...
> Let's hope Jay revives itself, humbles itself, and gets back to the roots of getting snow on the trails and opening up terrain for a long season. JPR is lucky, compared to Saddleback, an equally awesome mountain with financial troubles doing it the right way.
> 
> Long live Jay Peak and every other ski mountain plus more. But Screw the Q, I'll be up there tomorrow skiing his terrain. I'm sure he could care less of my opinion, still.



Hear, hear. Well said. Have a great time At jay. I hope you are staying for the tailgate party on Saturday, that will be one for the record books, I reckon.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 14, 2016)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> I am really not all that shocked with today's announcement.  What I am surprised at is that no government agency heads have rolled yet?  Here is a list of things that leave me wondering.
> 
> 1) Is EB-5 considered state and or federal money, if so how did PeakCM get all of these no bid contracts?
> 2) Is PeakCM in bed with Quiros or Stenger and then had a falling out?
> ...


 
It is a private investment.  The only connection to the govt., is that the investors get a visa.  There is no govt. guarantee and in fact, in order to qualify, the investment has to be "at risk".


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## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 14, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> ...
> Let's hope Jay revives itself, humbles itself, and gets back to the roots of getting snow on the trails and opening up terrain for a long season. JPR is lucky, compared to Saddleback, an equally awesome mountain with financial troubles doing it the right way.
> 
> Long live Jay Peak and every other ski mountain plus more. But Screw the Q, I'll be up there tomorrow skiing his terrain. I'm sure he could care less of my opinion, still.



Hear, hear. Well said. Have a great time At Jay. I hope you are staying for the tailgate party on Saturday, that will be one for the record books, I reckon.


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## benski (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> It is a private investment.  The only connection to the govt., is that the investors get a visa.  There is no govt. guarantee and in fact, in order to qualify, the investment has to be "at risk".


I think UVSHTSTRM is suggesting governor Shumlin helped conceal the fraud.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> What I've been saying recently has come to light.


Huh?????  All you have said in the past year is that you didn't like management because of poor customer service.  Is there a poor customer service problem in addition to the EB-5 problems?  Because you sure as heck said nothing about EB-5.

FYI, this is what you said:


> I have more stories about bad customer service at Jay than all other places combined, but I still go there to ski. Not a fan of the management.



Ironically, customer service was something I thought that they did very well when I was up this year.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> It is a private investment.  The only connection to the govt., is that the investors get a visa.  There is no govt. guarantee and in fact, in order to qualify, the investment has to be "at risk".



Oh God, not again :roll:  As you and I discussed in the past, that is not correct.

That is not the point.  The WHOLE reason for today's action was that this is alleged to be fraud.  The GOVERNMENT has agencies and laws to prevent this kind of scam from happening in the first place.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 14, 2016)

billo said:


> According to the government presentation today they will not face "jail time" only civil penalties.



If true, this is total Bull Shit!  

Without consequences, what's to prevent the next slimy jerk from doing the exact same thing.

As far as I'm concerned, if they are guilty, Stenger and Quiros are no different in my eyes than junkies who hold up a convenience store to support their habit.  The only difference is one is addicted to money to buy luxury and the other is addicted to money to buy drugs.


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## amf (Apr 14, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Ironically, customer service was something I thought that they did very well when I was up this year.


Wow. Not to go off topic, but that's not the mountain I was at this year. Used to go about every year for a week before the big buildout. Went back for the first time since then and customer service was borderline appalling. Nuff said. They have plenty of dirty laundry to get aired out; hope the management change gets them back on track.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

amf said:


> Wow. Not to go off topic, but that's not the mountain I was at this year. Used to go about every year for a week before the big buildout. Went back for the first time since then and customer service was borderline appalling. Nuff said. They have plenty of dirty laundry to get aired out; hope the management change gets them back on track.


I've also had a bad experience in the past, so I may have just been lucky.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If true, this is total Bull Shit!
> 
> Without consequences, what's to prevent the next slimy jerk from doing the exact same thing.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, if they are guilty, Stenger and Quiros are no different in my eyes than junkies who hold up a convenience store to support their habit.  The only difference is one is addicted to money to buy luxury and the other is addicted to money to buy drugs.


It's not true.  

Here is what is true: They will not face jail time as a result of THIS civil legal action.

The United States Attorney is still free to pursue criminal charges against them.  

Think of it this way... the SEC is about protecting investments.  The US Attorney is about prosecution.  The SEC made the first move, that's all.

IMHO, it is very likely that we will see criminal charges.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2016)

Yet another photo with Shumlin:


----------



## freeski (Apr 14, 2016)

If money was being moved within the EB-5 projects maybe there would be no jail. However, paying personal taxes and the Trump condo it's theft and because of the amount of money it's a felony. The "Q" needs to be dropped now that the mountains are in receivership.


----------



## zizou (Apr 14, 2016)

Longtime luker here ...

The big red flag was 4 years ago when that visa broker cut ties with Stenger. That guy was making many millions of dollars off of Jay Peak, but wasn't comfortable continuing the gravy train because he didn't like what he saw. He then outed Jay Peak by sending out emails dissing them. 

The State of Vermont "looked into it" and said everything was fine. They were in way over their heads. It took the feds to investigate and shut the whole thing down.

I think Stenger is a slime, but I won't be surprised if he avoids jail. The feds want him to testify against Q. Q is a criminal, and I think he will do some jail time.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

billo said:


> *According to the government presentation today they will not face "jail time" *only civil penalties.



Yeah.....no..... trust me, Papa Quiros is going to jail, and for a long time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah.....no..... trust me, Papa Quiros is going to jail, and for a long time.



Right.  One shoe has dropped with the civil complaint.  The other will soon drop with criminal indictments.  Both State and Federal.  

Perhaps we now know why Ary had a real problem with Stenger.  I always said that Stenger married the devil to accomplish his dreams.  Now it's all gone.


----------



## zizou (Apr 14, 2016)

Today's complaint is mostly about freezing assets and gaining control through receivership. There is one line about "civil penalties" but there will be much more to come.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 14, 2016)

benski said:


> I think UVSHTSTRM is suggesting governor Shumlin helped conceal the fraud.



I think Shumlin purposely looked the other way as he hoped his "faith" in Stenger would bring A LOT of $ into the poorest part of the state and make his legacy as governor look better historically. Once the mounting red flags got to be too much to claim ignorance (and the SEC getting involved), Shumlin probably decided it was time to cover his ass and get the state to actually start looking into these projects the way they should have been from the start.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 14, 2016)

Raise em' Jay.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think Shumlin purposely looked the other way as he hoped his "faith" in Stenger would bring A LOT of $ into the poorest part of the state and make his legacy as governor look better historically. Once the mounting red flags got to be too much to claim ignorance (and the SEC getting involved), Shumlin probably decided it was time to cover his ass and get the state to actually start looking into these projects the way they should have been from the start.



If you've got a state agency, especially in a state the size (economically) of VT that essentially per these allegations "missed" the misuse of roughly 200 MILLION dollars, then you better damn well believe that Shumlin and crew are going to do everything to distance themselves from this gross negligence!!!

You can also believe, the the folks at Peak Resorts are drinking heavily tonight as they know that the $53 million they have in their EB-5 escrow account that in theory is all in Montpelier know under the same oversight is going to be looked at not with scrutiny or even a microscope, but with the equivalent of the Hubble telescope, that their phase I EB-5 project is going to take much longer than anticipated, and they're likely not going to have EB-5 funds available as an option for phase II of their master plan 

This gross fraud by Quiros and Stenger may very well lead to the termination of the EB-5 program nationally


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

drjeff said:


> This gross fraud by Quiros and Stenger may very well lead to the termination of the EB-5 program nationally



This.  I know that Shumlin has spun this as, "my team is so awesome we found this," but let's be honest here, Vermont's business reputation for EB-5 investments is now complete toast.  As one commentator on WCAX tonight put it, "Vermont was the squeaky clean group EB-5 investment plans".  Guess what?  This was a $300 million Ponzi scheme.  In VERMONT.  

Vermont, unfortunately, is no stranger to this shit:  https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-fraud-case/mKEzHrsSBiQMcYPRIHlAxO/story.html

Some of you might have heard of that one.  Very eerily similar.  Charismatic, talented, trusted LOCAL figure matches up with a shadowy outside figure and raises a TON of money for a crazy idea and then finds out that the outside figure has taken all the money and run.  Vermont also has almost monthly reports of embezzlement, fraud, stealing, etc. of public officials (town clerks, nonprofit employees, etc).  Unfortunately, it seems that a few bad folks know that they can take advantage of Vermonters who are either too caring or too dumb to understand what is going on.  And here we have a State Government completely naive to it all while foreign investors were led to believe that Vermont's governmental oversight was so awesome and everyone gets along so well and trusts each other.  Guess what?  That ain't so.  Oh yeah, and someone last week stole a bunch of maple syrup from a farm...presumably to pay for a heroin addiction.  I don't even recognize my home state.


----------



## wakenbacon (Apr 14, 2016)

it's about time


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Raise em' Jay.



More like Raise 'em Q.  


It has been proposed that Burke's annual pond skim next season shall be entitled the "Ponzi Skim."

In fact, I seem to remember Mr. Ponzi making an appearance in the Burke thread a few years back in response to the one or two "Kool Aid" drinkers who said that all was well in Q-land.  This one is for Masskier and Big Wave Dave.  Sorry guys:


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

For some people, their true character shows right through when they get close to a pile of cash and an open door.  People with character do the right thing, people who are wired all wrong and care only for themselves give in to the temptation and don't care who or what they ruin int heir wake.  

Bernie Maddoff, Bernie Stenger and Bernie Quiros didn't care how many lives they ruin/negatively impact or how many dusty holes they leave in rural Vermont towns.

IMHO, there is no way Jr. wasn't aware of what was going on to some degree.  It will be curious to see to what extent Jr. knew as things unfold over the next several months etc.

Q's.......Pathetic poser wannabe big shots pretending to be jet setters and they are nothing but scam artists.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Agreed. If Stenger got sucked into this he had a LOT of opportunities to make things right.  But he didn't.  It's one of the biggest disappointments about this whole thing.  

I guess it's no secret why the CFO who raised red flags is referred to in the complaint as the "former CFO."


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Yet another akward politician photo.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah.....no..... trust me, Papa Quiros is going to jail, and for a long time.



Agreed

If you read the civil complaints they include terms such as mail fraud, interstate commerce. not a lawyer but i believe they are associated with federal criminal statutes.

So many locals already hurting... there was a rumor that Jay would shut down for a month following ski season.  hopefully the dust will settle and we can all move ahead and focus on what we love


I can't wrap my head around what Bill was thinking

As for Quiros imagine the irony of him in prison, being a former prison guard at Spandau


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Yet another akward politician photo.
> 
> View attachment 19976



Yep, EB-5 is working (?)


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Agreed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read my post above about Mac Parker I'm pretty sure that if he could answer he would tell you that he just presumed that everything would be fine and everyone would be paid back. No harm done.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> So many locals already hurting... there was a rumor that Jay would shut down for a month following ski season.



My guess with the shut down is that the EB5 cash flow had become too regulated for them to use it to make a big upcoming payment (aka Ponzi payment) that was upcoming to the Tram House Lodge investors. By shutting down the mountain and laying off everyone during the slowest month of the year, they could take all of the money that would have gone to employees and put it into the investor payment. Thereby keeping everyone generally quiet for another year.
I think they were starting to get desperate when their cash cow began to dry up.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

There are two things that boggle my mind about these allegations:

1) How did they think that they could ever get away with it?  Let's be honest, if they got 15% of the construction costs and did NOTHING else, they would have been very rich.  And it all would have been above board.  But misappropriating $200 million?????  Maybe it was a situation of starting small and adding to the problem in small steps.  Who knows.

2) Where is all of the money?  Quiros allegedly took $50 million just for his personal use, but they couldn't pay Pomerleau for the property in Newport?  That makes no sense to me.

I have ALWAYS maintained that the Phase 1 investors would never see their balloon payment.  I think it's safe to say that this is true.

I just can't see any way out of this other than a sale of the resorts.  The investors better get ready for a negative rate of return.

The biggest losers among the investors are those that will never get their green cards.  I can't imagine that the 100+ investors in AnC Bio have any chance at all of getting a green card, and they will be lucky to recoup mere pennies on the dollar.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 15, 2016)

sounds logical

There is also an issue with the tram apparently. It sounds like it needs well upwards of a million in upgrades to meet state standards to run next season. I would hope money goes towards that

not much good news here in our town unfortunately
praying for an epic winter to exorcise the evil


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

One theory I had after reading the SEC complaint was that this plan was hatched prior to the purchase of Jay Peak, and the reason Quiros was able to purchase Jay Peak is because he and Stenger made an offer that the MSSI couldn't refuse.

I think this may be spot on now that I went back and watched the PBS piece on Jay Peak.  In that piece, the reporter stated that food and beverage sales were now $10 million annually, which is double what the entire resort took in for gross receipts prior to EB-5.

So you have a ski resort that has gross receipts of about $5 million annually.  Quiros and Stenger paid more than $25 million to purchase the resort.  This means that they paid in excess of five times gross RECEIPTS.  Forget about gross earnings - we are talking receipts.  Is it just me or was this a very high purchase price?  If it was, that suggests that they knew that they could milk EB-5 from the very beginning.

By way of comparison, Peak Resorts just purchased Hunter Mountain for $36.8 million in 2015 dollars.  That makes $25 million for Jay Peak in 2008 seem like a VERY expensive purchase price.


----------



## River19 (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> One theory I had after reading the SEC complaint was that this plan was hatched prior to the purchase of Jay Peak, and the reason Quiros was able to purchase Jay Peak is because he and Stenger made an offer that the MSSI couldn't refuse.
> 
> I think this may be spot on now that I went back and watched the PBS piece on Jay Peak.  In that piece, the reporter stated that food and beverage sales were now $10 million annually, which is double what the entire resort took in for gross receipts prior to EB-5.
> 
> ...



Basic back of the napkin math for commercial real estate with a cap rate of 10% would mean PROFITS of $2.5M to justify the $25M purchase price.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> sounds logical
> 
> There is also an issue with the tram apparently. It sounds like it needs well upwards of a million in upgrades to meet state standards to run next season. I would hope money goes towards that
> 
> ...



Yeah, sorry.  Daddy spent the $1 mill on his personal taxes.  :roll:  That's two EB-5 investors, but hell, they created a few jobs at the accounting firm that ran his taxes.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> There is also an issue with the tram apparently. It sounds like it needs well upwards of a million in upgrades to meet state standards to run next season.



The Tram was just overhauled not too long ago. What could need that kind of $$ in upgrades to meet standards?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> My guess with the shut down is that the EB5 cash flow had become too regulated for them to use it to make a big upcoming payment (aka Ponzi payment) that was upcoming to the Tram House Lodge investors. By shutting down the mountain and laying off everyone during the slowest month of the year, they could take all of the money that would have gone to employees and put it into the investor payment. Thereby keeping everyone generally quiet for another year.
> I think they were starting to get desperate when their cash cow began to dry up.



Exactly.  Can't grab money from over here, so we just try and grab it from over there.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 15, 2016)

I guess this is why I'm not a crook, but who could sleep at night after building this house of cards?

More incredible, who could steal 50M from the house of cards and think everything would be ok?  How could you sleep a single night in that manhattan 2.5M apartment (or whatever it cost), knowing your whole lifestyle was based on fraud?

Incredible.

And even more upsetting, I mean, really upsetting....who could stand the thought of fucking up a great mountain?  Jesus christ.  

I mean, I really like the new Jay....I think they struck a good balance between maintaining an old school vibe, but keeping pace with the times, and providing the amenities that are simply needed to financially survive in the tough entertainment industry.  But it was all bullshit.  It was all a crock of lies, built on stolen money.  

Well, OK, maybe I'm looking at this wrong - I guess I should be happy that at least the crooks used the stolen money to forge a good identity that some future non-crook owner can build on....


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 15, 2016)

So, the other thing I noticed this year, first time I saw the stateside lodge - the thing is WAY cheaper that the tram side stuff....

I know it's billed as the budget hotel, the cheaper side of the mountain, but the bar and lobby and stuff.....way more spartan than the tram bars and restaurants.  They totally cheaped out on the later project.  I guess they knew they were running out of cash.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I know that *Shumlin has spun this as, "my team is so awesome we found this," *but let's be honest here, Vermont's business reputation for EB-5 investments is now complete toast. addiction.  I don't even recognize my home state.



Tells you how stupid they think the average Vermont resident is.  

The most flabbergasting part of yesterday's press conference was when the women (missed her name and position due to crappy BFP buffering) said (Paraphrased), _"Vermont is the safest EB-5 program in America because it has government oversight"_.   AMAZING!!!   The gall to even THINK to say this anymore, let alone yesterday.

*I STILL remain in a complete state of wilder as to exactly WHAT the employees of Vermont's EB-5 Regional Board do? *

  It's obvious they were more active participants, lobbyists, and cheerleaders for EB-5 rather than a legitimate oversight board, and we know they didnt do the financial analysis that was a major part of their job. * So what exactly is it that these employees do here? * My suspicion which I believe is highly likely correct, is they're nothing more than overpaid government workers, making government salaries well in excess of what most hard-working Vermonters could ever dream of making, all for spending most of their day twiddling their thumbs, and filing an occasional EB-5 document. 








LONGBOARDR said:


> *I can't wrap my head around what Bill was thinking*



_*$$$$$*_


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> So many locals already hurting... there was a rumor that Jay would shut down for a month following ski season.  hopefully the dust will settle and we can all move ahead and focus on what we love



I have confirmed this from talking to Jay employees. 

All non essential employees are scheduled to take a five week furlough at the end of the season.  This was in place before all this eb5 stuff erupted.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> There is also an issue with the tram apparently. It sounds like it needs well upwards of a million in upgrades to meet state standards to run next season. I would hope money goes towards that



The Tram is in need of a 4 million dollar upgrade to its electrical systems. This has already been paid for and scheduled and should happen at the end of the fall before the season starts.

This was all in place weeks ago.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> I have confirmed this from talking to Jay employees.
> 
> All non essential employees are scheduled to take a five week furlough at the end of the season.  This was in place before all this eb5 stuff erupted.



Does this mean that the waterpark will shut down?  My family's summer pass begins on May 1st.  If so, at least it's a loss that is easily absorbed.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> The Tram is in need of a 4 million dollar upgrade to its electrical systems. This has already been paid for and scheduled and should happen at the end of the fall before the season starts.
> 
> This was all in place weeks ago.



Direct line to the wind towers on Lowell Mtn?


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Does this mean that the waterpark will shut down?  My family's summer pass begins on May 1st.  If so, at least it's a loss that is easily absorbed.



Web site announcement says no change in day to day operations for golf, water park, hotels etc....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Web site announcement says no change in day to day operations for golf, water park, hotels etc....



Excellent news for me and for Jay Peak.  Thanks for posting that.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Does this mean that the waterpark will shut down?  My family's summer pass begins on May 1st.  If so, at least it's a loss that is easily absorbed.



Don't use the waterpark so I don't know about that. 

But I assume they would at least keep the Hotel Jay, Ice Rink & water park open.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

They were also going to shut mid week next week then reopen. Now they say they will be open all week.

Maybe with the new management all this has changed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> They were also going to shut mid week next week then reopen. Now they say they will be open all week.
> 
> Maybe with the new management all this has changed.



If they want to sell the property they are going to want it to appear to be as robust as possible.  This could be a good sign.


----------



## xlr8r (Apr 15, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> The Tram is in need of a 4 million dollar upgrade to its electrical systems. This has already been paid for and scheduled and should happen at the end of the fall before the season starts.
> 
> This was all in place weeks ago.



So is this paid for by EB-5 as well.  4mil seems awfully high for just electrical work.  Maybe Everything at Jay has a 100% markup.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> So is this paid for by EB-5 as well.  4mil seems awfully high for just electrical work.  Maybe Everything at Jay has a 100% markup.



Could Mike's Electric be doing the work by any chance?


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Could Mike's Electric be doing the work by any chance?



The work needed can only be done by the Tram manufacturer.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *If they want to sell the property they are going to want it to appear to be as robust as possible.  This could be a good sign.*



There's no way a sale is going to come quickly.   

They haven't even got a handle on the financial mess, let alone commenting the legal mess.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's no way a sale is going to come quickly.
> 
> They haven't even got a handle on the financial mess, let alone commenting the legal mess.



Good point.  I got excited there for a minute.

But at least for Burke, where are they going to get any capital to run the place?  The only source they are going to have is from EB-5 investor's money.  I doubt those investors are going to want to run a money-losing ski area.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point.  I got excited there for a minute.
> 
> But at least for Burke, where are they going to get any capital to run the place?  The only source they are going to have is from EB-5 investor's money.  I doubt those investors are going to want to run a money-losing ski area.



Maybe they simply won't find any cash to run it and blame everything on Q with a hope of forcing the new Jay owner to take Burke. Then again the State really wants that hotel under the same control as the mountain suggesting there's some kind of plan here. They must know Burke isn't a cash cow.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 15, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> Maybe they simply won't find any cash to run it and blame everything on Q with a hope of forcing the new Jay owner to take Burke. Then again the State really wants that hotel under the same control as the mountain suggesting there's some kind of plan here. They must know Burke isn't a cash cow.



Stop.  Re-read the highlighted portions.  Go back and read thousands of posts on the "Big Burke Announcement" thread.  Then you'll find the flawed logic in your "The State must know..." argument :smile:


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Tells you how stupid they think the average Vermont resident is.
> 
> The most flabbergasting part of yesterday's press conference was when the women (missed her name and position due to crappy BFP buffering) said (Paraphrased), _"Vermont is the safest EB-5 program in America because it has government oversight"_.   AMAZING!!!   The gall to even THINK to say this anymore, let alone yesterday.



As I said, Vermont EB-5 projects are now toast.  Vermont will now be, in EB-5 news, what Chicago is.  What is particularly sad is how Shumlin just shrugged about what happened.  Not only because he is a lame duck, but he just DOESN'T CARE about the NEK.  If it were Chittenden County it would be another Irene.  Where is Sanders on this?  Welch?  Leahy?  You all smiled for the camera with this Qrook.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 15, 2016)

A true gallery of thieves. 

Old Bern likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth I guess. 

"The powerful few".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> *a hope of forcing the new Jay owner to take Burke. *



I have no idea how this goes down, because there are too many variables, too much we still don't know, and 1001 possibilities, but I feel confident that the opening move will involve an attempt to make the purchase of Jay Peak conditional on the successful bidder/buyer taking Burke as well.   

You can marry my hot daughter, but only if you find my ugly daughter a fiancee.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 15, 2016)

So Burke becomes the new Pico.

Lovely prospect for Burke skiers.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

JimG. said:


> A true gallery of thieves.
> 
> Old Bern likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth I guess.
> 
> "The powerful few".



Don't get me started on Bernie.  The guy who yells about how unfair it is that folks get golden parachutes...until his wife needs one and it almost bankrupts the private college she was leading.  It's all about him and a paycheck for him.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 15, 2016)

I'm guessing it will take a long time to sell these assets.   So how does the new management company operate Burke profitably?   They probably can't.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't get me started on Bernie.  The guy who yells about how unfair it is that folks get golden parachutes...until his wife needs one and it almost bankrupts the private college she was leading.  It's all about him and a paycheck for him.



They're just helping to tear down the system they deplore - one golden parachute payment at a time!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> I'm guessing it will take a long time to sell these assets.   So how does the new management company operate Burke profitably?   They probably can't.



It will probably be like when ASC dissolved--they pair up resorts for sale to bidders.  In this case, one has to buy Burke with Jay.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

eatskisleep said:


> So... about that Jay Peak expansion...



That plan is soooo 12 years ago...

This was the last "plan:


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

Yesterday, there was a link to EB-5 information on the Jay Peak website (it was top-level in the left-hand menu bar). Today it is gone. You can find old cached pages if you search, but the one I found was stripped of information. Damage control is in full effect.

Someone asked earlier why EB-5 money wasn't used to pay for the Tram upgrade. I recall from discussions way back that EB-5 funds could not be used for on-hill improvements (eg. building new lifts, fixing the Tram) because there was no associated permanent job creation. It would be the same lifties that you know and love from the Bonnie loading you on the six-pack.

Not to spam for my own blog, but, in light of current events, you might find it interesting and nostalgic to read the story of my meeting with Steve Wright back in 2010. Ahh, the optimism of those days:
[h=3] Jay Peak: a marketing guy's dream, or nightmare? 
[/h]


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That plan is soooo 12 years ago...



NEK, I much preferred the plan you drew up for the new "JFK Bowl" chair back in the Jay Peak Development thread. We must remember to share that idea with the new ownership. 

Why does the word Intrawest keep popping into my head?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Why does the word Intrawest keep popping into my head?


They would be a perfect fit.  A combination Jay Peak and Tremblant pass would be a HUGE opportunity for the Montreal market.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They would be a perfect fit.  A combination Jay Peak and Tremblant pass would be a HUGE opportunity for the Montreal market.



I wonder if MSS would be interested in re-owning Jay?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

Starting around 2:00 (embedded Livestream)-

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...h-leahy-asked-eb5-fraud-allegations/83085004/

The Free Press really needs to figure out how to get better audio with their LiveStreams. :???:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Free Press really needs to figure out how to get better audio with their LiveStreams.



Vermont Pravda probably cant afford the IT.


----------



## Sons of Thunder (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They would be a perfect fit.  A combination Jay Peak and Tremblant pass would be a HUGE opportunity for the Montreal market.



Even with Canadian guests able to pay for lift tickets/lodging in CAD, why would someone from MTL cross the border instead of going to Tremblant or any of the MSSI mountains? Genuine question since I don't see the benefit.

As for Jay/Burke being sold, couldn't the receivership sell the resorts since they were purchased with misappropriated funds, and then splits the proceeds among the EB-5 investors? They would still be taking a huge loss but getting 200k back is better than zero?


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 15, 2016)

The question about selling seems to be one of who can legally convey title.  This is clear when you know who owns the entity.  BUT in this case, we all assume that Q does not since it was bought with ill gotten gain.  But that has not been proved.  Not my area of expertise, but it seems unlikely that a judge would authorize a sale before ownership is established.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> The question about selling seems to be one of who can legally convey title.  This is clear when you know who owns the entity.  BUT in this case, we all assume that Q does not since it was bought with ill gotten gain.  But that has not been proved.  Not my area of expertise, but it seems unlikely that a judge would authorize a sale before ownership is established.



They will need court approval for a sale.  That might take a long time.

I wouldn't put it past Quiros to do everything in his power to drag things out just to see Burke languish.  IMHO this guy's ego knows no bounds.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

Sons of Thunder said:


> Even with Canadian guests able to pay for lift tickets/lodging in CAD, why would someone from MTL cross the border instead of going to Tremblant or any of the MSSI mountains? Genuine question since I don't see the benefit.
> 
> As for Jay/Burke being sold, couldn't the receivership sell the resorts since they were purchased with misappropriated funds, and then splits the proceeds among the EB-5 investors? They would still be taking a huge loss but getting 200k back is better than zero?



Lots of Canadians ski at Jay. It's a very different vibe than Tremblant.  Mont Ste. Saveur is no Jay.


----------



## Sons of Thunder (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of Canadians ski at Jay. It's a very different vibe than Tremblant.  Mont Ste. Saveur is no Jay.



Ah OK. I've never been up there before so I wasn't sure. Is Jay more of a big mountain experience? I'll be in the area at the end of April and depending on what's open I'm going to swing by Sauveur, Jay or Sugarbush for a couple days.


----------



## gregnye (Apr 15, 2016)

So... Now we just wait for Peak Resorts to swoop in and buy Jay Peak and Burke and add it to the pass list. Right?? Right???


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 15, 2016)

I would suspect Peak is pretty heavily leveraged after the Hunter purchase. Add to that the poor year the northeast ski areas had across the board this year and I doubt they would go for it.

I could see Intrawest being interested in Jay Peak with all of the amenities that have been built there. However, Burke doesn't really fit their profile.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2016)

Peaks needs to diversify West if they are to acquire any more areas


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They will need court approval for a sale.  That might take a long time.
> 
> I wouldn't put it past Quiros to do everything in his power to drag things out just to see Burke languish.  IMHO this guy's ego knows no bounds.



Do you actually think that Ariel Quiros has something out for Burke? Just seems odd that someone would go to such extremes to just be vindictive of a ski resort or the locals.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2016)

gregnye said:


> So... Now we just wait for Peak Resorts to swoop in and buy Jay Peak and Burke and add it to the pass list. Right?? Right???



Not a chance... Sadly. You do wonder if this went down five months ago does Peak hold off on Hunter in order to go after the Montreal market with Jay.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Do you actually think that Ariel Quiros has something out for Burke? Just seems odd that someone would go to such extremes to just be vindictive of a ski resort or the locals.



I honestly believe it.  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

Q posted something on their FB page saying that it is business as normal.  In response to feedback that the "Q" needs to be dropped, because of the serious allegations of fraud, the mountain responded to folks to "stay positive."  Wow.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 15, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Good point.  I got excited there for a minute.
> 
> But at least for Burke, where are they going to get any capital to run the place?  The only source they are going to have is from EB-5 investor's money.  I doubt those investors are going to want to run a money-losing ski area.



They have to sell very quickly, at this point it will be a crisis of confidence.  People need to be confident there will be a resort next year, to pay deposits, to buy season passes....

Even if they have plenty of cash, you need the consumers to have confidence there is a going concern.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

Someone is on top of updating the Leisure Hotels website:

http://www.leisurehotel.com/properties/jay-peak-resort/

http://www.leisurehotel.com/properties/q-burke/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 15, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> *Someone is on top of updating the Leisure Hotels website:*
> 
> http://www.leisurehotel.com/properties/jay-peak-resort/
> 
> http://www.leisurehotel.com/properties/q-burke/





> Whether you like the outdoors or indoors, winter, summer, spring, or  fall, *the talented and familiar concierge staff at the Q Burke Hotel  & Conference Hotel can point you in the right direction.*



What staff?


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2016)

Sons of Thunder said:


> Even with Canadian guests able to pay for lift tickets/lodging in CAD, why would someone from MTL cross the border instead of going to Tremblant or any of the MSSI mountains? Genuine question since I don't see the benefit.



Many reasons why many Montrealers come to Jay and not to Tremblant:

- season pass much cheaper
- if you live in the southern part of Montreal or south of Montreal, much faster and less traffic to get to Jay, EZ border crossing nowait
- many don't like the Disneyland that Tremblant has become
- better glades
- more laidback attitude
- less crowded
- more snow
- better backcountry options


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...y-peak-stenger-fraud-case-interview/83075814/


----------



## tumbler (Apr 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What staff?



Maybe they are hiring back some of the staff that was fired. They are not going to import employees, only the ones that are running the show.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 15, 2016)

River19 said:


> Basic back of the napkin math for commercial real estate with a cap rate of 10% would mean PROFITS of $2.5M to justify the $25M purchase price.......



2008 was the bottom of the real estate market, River is probably correct. 10% cap rate is good but based on inflated value. Most ski resorts do not make a lot of money, if any. This included Jay.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't get me started on Bernie.  The guy who yells about how unfair it is that folks get golden parachutes...until his wife needs one and it almost bankrupts the private college she was leading.  It's all about him and a paycheck for him.



Amen, So Jane plans to buy a $10M campus with 200 students? What can go wrong with that? (Sander's kitchen table talk.) And when you drive the college into the ground you take $200K to get lost? Leaving the college $11M in debt? And what about the multi-million dollar donation commitments to back up the deal?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> Amen, So Jane plans to buy a $10M campus with 200 students? What can go wrong with that? (Sander's kitchen table talk.) And when you drive the college into the ground you take $200K to get lost? Leaving the college $11M in debt? And what about the multi-million dollar donation commitments to back up the deal?



Exactly.  Bernie also ran for office because he needed a job.  I love it how he says he is an outsider--he is a career politician.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 15, 2016)

I predict Boyne buys Jay this summer......


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> I predict Boyne buys Jay this summer......



Not going to happen.  Boyne has no money.  They relied on CNL to finance their last expansion and CNL is getting out of the resort business.  Boyne could not get any money to buy Solitude, a single resort, in 2014 next door to Brighton.

And, as stated, there will be no sale of either resort for a while.  There are now only civil violations.  Criminal cases come next followed by civil lawsuits by the investors.  We're talking at least two seasons before any sale could even begin to take place.


----------



## benski (Apr 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Many reasons why many Montrealers come to Jay and not to Tremblant:
> 
> - season pass much cheaper
> - if you live in the southern part of Montreal or south of Montreal, much faster and less traffic to get to Jay, EZ border crossing nowait
> ...



Jay also gets much more snow. Tremblant is also flatter.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2016)

The governor tried to scrub records:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/15/governors-office-asks-that-old-emails-be-destroyed/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *The governor tried to scrub records*



Ummmm.......



> *Sarah London, the governor’s lawyer, made the request April 8 to  delete former staff emails*, less than a week before Thursday’s unsealing  of the federal lawsuit alleging the Jay Peak developers had perpetrated  a “Ponzi-like” scheme that started in 2008. London did not respond to a  request for comment Friday. *The Shumlin administration became  aware April 7 that the Securities and Exchange Commission would be  submitting a court filing *this week.



These people are dumber than a shoebox filled with rocks.  

 And Shumlin's a Democrat to boot, he should have consulted with Hillary Clinton for the proper way to erase incriminating emails.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 16, 2016)

tumbler said:


> 2008 was the bottom of the real estate market, River is probably correct. 10% cap rate is good but based on inflated value. Most ski resorts do not make a lot of money, if any. This included Jay.



the economics have changed. yes $25MM is a lot of money but Jay had so much more potential than arguably any other mountain in the east. it gets dumped. the pump house is a huge plus. Hunter is a day trip mountain. it is not a resort. Jay is a legit resort destination for many families now. i don't think they over paid. Jay still can be built up even more. i bet someone buys within 12 months. 

also someone mentioned why would any montrealers come to Jay? seems like someone who hasn't been to NEK or mountains in Quebec.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

From WCAX:


> "Typically these things can last as short as six months or as long as three years, so no way to tell. It's all dependent on court at this point and the outcome. We are here as long as they need us. Stay until that's settled," said Steve Olson, the president of Leisure Group.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 16, 2016)

gladerider said:


> the economics have changed. yes $25MM is a lot of money but Jay had so much more potential than arguably any other mountain in the east. it gets dumped. the pump house is a huge plus. Hunter is a day trip mountain. it is not a resort. Jay is a legit resort destination for many families now. i don't think they over paid. Jay still can be built up even more. i bet someone buys within 12 months.
> 
> also someone mentioned why would any montrealers come to Jay? seems like someone who hasn't been to NEK or mountains in Quebec.



Location, location, location.  Jay is far away and not the easiest place to get to for the casual skier. The economics have massively changed from 2008. You buy on value not potential. Hunter sees way more skier visits than Jay and doesn't need hotel, water park. Those cost a lot to run and maintain which eats at the profit. 

If Q built a 25 story office building in the hole in downtown Newport he would sell it to Q Office Space for what a 30 story building in nyc is worth, but in reality on the open market it would be worth what a 3 story building is worth. The sale of Jay in 2008 for 25M when the market was in the crapper was just another rung on the Ponzi ladder. No one was buying anything in 2008, especially ski resorts in the NEK.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 16, 2016)

So you  think ski mountains or resorts sustain their operation selling lift tickets to casual day trippers? You obviously didn't understand what I meant by 'changing economics'.

Nowadays you need skiers with families visiting for 1+ days to run resorts. 

My trip to hunter cost me a couple of hundred at the most. For my trip to Jay, I sink a few thousand easy. I spend a few hundred just at the pump house alone.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## ScottySkis (Apr 16, 2016)

Maybe it becomes P Burke from potential buyer

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Cannonball (Apr 16, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Location, location, location.  Jay is far away and not the easiest place to get to for the casual skier.



It may be far from you, but it's only 1:45 from 1.6 million people in Montreal. And for everyone else they've built themselves to be a destination not a day-trip.


----------



## catsup948 (Apr 16, 2016)

Govt officials deleting emails days before This all happens.  I feel this is becoming bigger than Stenger and Q.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

Jay Peak developers gave $72k to Vermont Democrats:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/16/jay-peak-developers-gave-72400-to-vt-democrats-from-2011-to-2014/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

It's hard to believe that this guy wanted emails to be scrubbed. 




.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay Peak developers gave $72k to Vermont Democrats:
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/16/jay-peak-developers-gave-72400-to-vt-democrats-from-2011-to-2014/



Round III of this mess.  

Now the fun begins.


----------



## freeski (Apr 16, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> Govt officials deleting emails days before This all happens.  I feel this is becoming bigger than Stenger and Q.


YES, if they deleted emails right before this broke they need to GO! Thank you to VT Digger for staying on this story.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

catsup948 said:


> Govt officials deleting emails days before This all happens.  I feel this is becoming bigger than Stenger and Q.



Yep, Round II!  

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/15/governors-office-asks-that-old-emails-be-destroyed/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

Some of the donations were made through GSI.  The only source of income that I've seen for GSI, according to news reports, is crooked land deals and pilfered EB-5 money.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 16, 2016)

gladerider said:


> yes *$25MM is a lot of money but Jay had so much more potential than arguably any other mountain in the east. *it gets dumped. the pump house is a huge plus. *Hunter is a day trip mountain. it is not a resort. Jay is a legit resort destination* for many families now.



Hunter Mountain was worth way more than Jay Peak prior to millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into JP.  Frankly, I'm not even confident Jay Peak should be valued > Hunter Mountain even today, post millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into it.



VTKilarney said:


> *Jay Peak developers gave $72k to Vermont Democrats:*



I did a political contributions search and posted this info regarding Quiros' political donations in this thread months ago, but it was deleted by a mod who's name shall not be mentioned, who didn't like my pointing out the likely political collusion with the Vermont State Democratic party.  Of which, I might add, I'm vindicated on this point too now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

It will be very interesting to see what the fallout is for those in elected office that were tied to this in some way.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 16, 2016)

On a bright note, the skiing here at Jay today is awesome, corn snow and sun, empty.

Grill gonna get lite in an hour, then me.

Mood is upbeat, you can buy a mountain but you don't own it


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

Very interesting watch.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 16, 2016)

Interesting article in the Cal Rec about Newport.  How sad.  Yet, I don't understand why the Caledonian Wrecker feels the need to write things like this:



> Paul Dreher, the city’s former zoning administrator, helped create the zoning laws that facilitated the future construction of the Renaissance Block. He also lives in a newly renovated historic apartment building nearby and now listens to birds signing in trees near the hole rather than watching drug deals in the shadows of the old buildings now gone.



http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_42881c1d-aff5-5e6b-b78c-866e62d55bbd.html


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's hard to believe that this guy wanted emails to be scrubbed.
> 
> View attachment 19989
> 
> ...




http://www.broadsides.org/vermont-politics-alex-maclean-edition.htm


----------



## drjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

Trying to figure out in 5 years from now when we look back on mega ski area management screw ups whether this Quiros - Stenger EB-5 debacle or the Powdr - Park City Mtn Resort forgot to notify Talisker they intended to renew their land lease, will be looked at as the "worst" screw up???


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Apr 16, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Trying to figure out in 5 years from now when we look back on mega ski area management screw ups whether this Quiros - Stenger EB-5 debacle or the Powdr - Park City Mtn Resort forgot to notify Talisker they intended to renew their land lease, will be looked at as the "worst" screw up???



That's a great question. I would have to say the PCMR personally. It was a small fuck up that cost them greatly, were this was massive blatent fraud. This wasn't a screw up except that they got caught.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 16, 2016)

I second PCMR vote

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hunter Mountain was worth way more than Jay Peak prior to millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into JP.  Frankly, I'm not even confident Jay Peak should be valued > Hunter Mountain even today, post millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into it.
> 
> 
> 
> I did a political contributions search and posted this info regarding Quiros' political donations in this thread months ago, but it was deleted by a mod who's name shall not be mentioned, who didn't like my pointing out the likely political collusion with the Vermont State Democratic party.  Of which, I might add, I'm vindicated on this point too now.



It had nothing to do with that and everything to do with your lack of control in politicizing anything you can as Democrat vs Republican.  Donations have also been made by the accused to Romney and Kasich in the past.

Both parties wreak of corruption, but this is not the forum for discussing that. AZ has long had a no politics rule, which for some reason you have a history of not grasping. 

Plenty of other places on the internet to discuss politics. Go find them if it's that important to you.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 16, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hunter Mountain was worth way more than Jay Peak prior to millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into JP.  Frankly, I'm not even confident Jay Peak should be valued > Hunter Mountain even today, post millions of dollars of "free money" parachuted into it.
> 
> 
> 
> I did a political contributions search and posted this info regarding Quiros' political donations in this thread months ago, but it was deleted by a mod who's name shall not be mentioned, who didn't like my pointing out the likely political collusion with the Vermont State Democratic party.  Of which, I might add, I'm vindicated on this point too now.


Even today?

You got me curious.  Wonder what their ebitda is. I think hunter's was or around  $6 mil at the time sale.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

gladerider said:


> I second PCMR vote
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk



Third.  


.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 16, 2016)

Jay is not far away and isolated. It is closer to a major city than Hunter is. It is an easy day trip from Montreal.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 16, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Jay is not far away and isolated. It is closer to a major city than Hunter is. It is an easy day trip from Montreal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


Hunter is about 2 hours from NYC without speeding to Hunter.maybe Platty owner would buy Burke now

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## yeggous (Apr 16, 2016)

ScottySkis said:


> Hunter is about 2 hours from NYC without speeding to Hunter.maybe Platty owner would buy Burke now
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



Right. And Jay is less than two hours from downtown Montreal, assuming the border crossing is painless.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Apr 16, 2016)

The New York metro area is a LOT bigger, though.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 16, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The New York metro area is a LOT bigger, though.



+1


----------



## freeski (Apr 16, 2016)

Does Vermont have the death penalty?


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 16, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> It may be far from you, but it's only 1:45 from 1.6 million people in Montreal. And for everyone else they've built themselves to be a destination not a day-trip.



Greater Montreal area is now 4 million people.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 16, 2016)

freeski said:


> Does Vermont have the death penalty?





IMO Montreal is plenty big enough to keep Jay busy.


----------



## freeski (Apr 16, 2016)

It was a joke. However, it is possible that Quiros dies in prison even though he's only 58. I think Stenger will get a lighter, but still significant sentence. I hope there's a trial so the public can see what went on.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm thinking Q loses "everything" but no jail.


----------



## freeski (Apr 16, 2016)

Harvey said:


> I'm thinking Q loses "everything" but no jail.


There is a reality TV star who recently spent a year on jail for lying on bank loan documents and hiding income in a bankruptcy. Compare that to the SEC complaint. I'm reading it and only on page 43, but the amount of times they deceived and misappropriated EB-5 money is staggering and includes misrepresenting facts to banks. I thought the margin accounts were for stocks, but it looks like T-bills. How do you loose money on T-bills? https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-69.pdf


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 16, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It had nothing to do with that and everything to do with your lack of control in politicizing anything you can as Democrat vs Republican.  Donations have also been made by the accused to Romney and Kasich in the past.
> 
> Both parties wreak of corruption, but this is not the forum for discussing that. AZ has long had a no politics rule, which for some reason you have a history of not grasping.
> 
> Plenty of other places on the internet to discuss politics. Go find them if it's that important to you.



So it's only OK for you to bring it up. The man didn't mention any names but you felt the need to respond.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So it's only OK for you to bring it up. The man didn't mention any names but you felt the need to respond.



Actually I have no desire to discuss politics on AZ. That's kind of the point. Sorry that flew over your head boat.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 16, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Actually I have no desire to discuss politics on AZ. That's kind of the point. Sorry that flew over your head boat.


No you brought politics up not me. It would have been just as easy to let it go & let the page turn but your ego wouldn't have that. Not surprising at all considering your political leaning.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> No you brought politics up not me. It would have been just as easy to let it go & let the page turn but your ego wouldn't have that. Not surprising at all considering your political leaning.



A. Your reading comprehension is quite poor.

B. Per usual, I really don't care what you think. Always inane dribble from you. Not sure why you always try and engage me. Oh right, that would be YOUR ego. Take your own advice.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 17, 2016)

LOL. like a little kid always need to have the last word.

If you don't care why respond?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> LOL. like a little kid always need to have the last word.
> 
> If you don't care why respond?



Wouldn't this be you trying to get the last word???

Again. Take your own advice.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 17, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> *It had nothing to do with that and everything to do with your lack of control in politicizing anything you can as Democrat vs Republican. *



False (total and obvious BS too).

My post had absolutely nothing to do with "politicizing" anything, and was 100% specific, 100% factual, and completely germane to this thread topic & Ariel Quiros' behavior in greasing Vermont political wheels, which along with many other aspects of this story, I figured out prior to the masses and shared here.

 The reality is, you didn't like my sleuthing because (in your mind) you perceived it as somehow negative towards Democrats (it wasn't), which you don't like.   Buy hey, shame on VTDigger for "politicizing" this matter by drawing the same conclusion and posting the exact same thing that I did. LOL



gladerider said:


> *Even today?*
> 
> You got me curious.  Wonder what their ebitda is. I think hunter's was or around  $6 mil at the time sale.



Not sure.  As I said, there was a lot of "free money" parachuted onto Jay Peak, but there's no way they were more valuable than Hunter Mountain before that.



Harvey said:


> I'm thinking Q loses "everything" but no jail.



Papa Q is 100% going to jail.


----------



## wakenbacon (Apr 17, 2016)

I





thetrailboss said:


> don't get me started on bernie.  The guy who yells about how unfair it is that folks get golden parachutes...until his wife needs one and it almost bankrupts the private college she was leading.  It's all about him and a paycheck for him.



  ??


----------



## wakenbacon (Apr 17, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Both parties wreak of corruption, but this is not the forum for discussing that. AZ has long had a no politics rule, which for some reason you have a history of not grasping.
> 
> Plenty of other places on the internet to discuss politics. Go find them if it's that important to you.


 ???


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 17, 2016)

In BG's defense, the information that Stenger and Quiros were funneling money to the Democrats was important information because the Democrats were in control.  Posting that information wasn't a political discussion.  He wasn't saying that the Democrats were any better or worse than the Republicans.  He was saying that Stenger and Quiros were attempting to buy favor, that's all.

It was a mistake to delete that post.  We lost an important data point.  I've seen MUCH worse that isn't deleted.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> which along with many other aspects of this story, I figured out prior to the masses and shared here.



Careful, don't want to bruise that back of yours




BenedictGomez said:


> The reality is, you didn't like my sleuthing because (in your mind) you perceived it as somehow negative towards Democrats (it wasn't), .



Again, this is false.

It's about your personal history BG. I normally would have let that post go. VTK points out much worse political posts than the one you made are typically allowed to slide. However, you rank right at the top of the list on this site of members who push the limits on politics.  I assumed you were going to make it a Republicans vs Democrat thing because you have a history of doing that.   That is the reason. Sorry you don't like it, but it's a bed you made yourself.


----------



## Puck it (Apr 17, 2016)

I thought Republicans were the Evil Empire.  The Dems can be bought too.  No way.  Now I have heard everything!


----------



## River19 (Apr 17, 2016)

Politicians and developers combined with complex Federal programs are possibly entwined in a scandal involving misappropriation of program funds?.......say it isn't so.......who would have seen this coming.......I wonder if this has ever happened before......

tongue firmly in cheek.....


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 17, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In BG's defense, the information that Stenger and Quiros were funneling money to the Democrats was important information because the Democrats were in control.  Posting that information wasn't a political discussion.  He wasn't saying that the Democrats were any better or worse than the Republicans.  He was saying that Stenger and Quiros were attempting to buy favor, that's all.



Guys like Stenger and Quiros will funnel money to politicians in charge irrespective of their affiliation.   Politicians in charge -irrespective of their affiliation- will not be concerned as long as there are good photo ops and that the voters are happy.

In other words, there are no republicans vs democrats story here.   Just the typical dirty developer - accomodating/clueless/idiot politician.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 17, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In BG's defense, the information that Stenger and Quiros were funneling money to the Democrats was important information because the Democrats were in control.  Posting that information wasn't a political discussion.  He wasn't saying that the Democrats were any better or worse than the Republicans.  He was saying that Stenger and Quiros were attempting to buy favor, that's all.
> 
> It was a mistake to delete that post.  We lost an important data point.  I've seen MUCH worse that isn't deleted.



I fully agree, if you deleted this, maybe it's time to re-think a lot of things around here.



> In other words, there are no republicans vs democrats story here.   Just  the typical dirty developer - accomodating/clueless/idiot politician.



This


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 17, 2016)

Puck it said:


> I thought Republicans were the Evil Empire.  The Dems can be bought too.  No way.  Now I have heard everything!



Thankfully we have deadheadskier to educate the masses with such insightful gleanings.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2016)

Worth a listen.  Pretty much spot on:

http://digital.vpr.net/post/albright-broken-promises


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2016)

http://timesargus.com/article/20160417/OPINION01/160419682/1021


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Apr 17, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Worth a listen.  Pretty much spot on:
> 
> http://digital.vpr.net/post/albright-broken-promises



It is a good concise summary but doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. I think we are in the "waiting for more news" phase of this story.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 17, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> It is a good concise summary but doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.* I think we are in the "waiting for more news" phase of this story.*



Yup, need to button-up the financial information and dot the 'i's and cross the 't's before the Federal indictments for criminal charges are filed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2016)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> It is a good concise summary but doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. I think we are in the "waiting for more news" phase of this story.



True, but that is a commentary piece and not a news report.


----------



## River19 (Apr 18, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup, need to button-up the financial information and dot the 'i's and cross the 't's before the Federal indictments for criminal charges are filed.



That is exactly what I am thinking and what I am waiting for.  I think part of this may also be the Feds trying to figure out who else may have charges brought against them as a knowing conspirator etc. and there is a certain special little someone who I hope Lady Karma (qkarma?) takes care of as well..........

The concurrent story is of course the behind the scenes freakout that is going on in Shummy's office and the April 8th "delete these emails" orders.  Like I said before, when the lights go on, the roaches tend to scatter.....


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 18, 2016)

River19 said:


> I think part of this may also be the Feds trying to figure out who else may have charges brought against them as a knowing conspirator etc. and there is a certain special little someone who I hope Lady Karma (qkarma?) takes care of as well..........



To perpetuate a fraud that large for so long typically implies that very few people are involved. However, I cannot believe that Stenger and Q were the only crooks in this thing.   I would be surprised if criminal charges were only levied against those two.  I can think of a few (state employees and JayPeak/Burke exec.) who must have been facilitators, whether or not they personally gained financially from this mess.


----------



## River19 (Apr 18, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> To perpetuate a fraud that large for so long typically implies that very few people are involved. However, I cannot believe that Stenger and Q were the only crooks in this thing.   I would be surprised if criminal charges were only levied against those two.  I can think of a few (state employees and JayPeak/Burke exec.) who must have been facilitators, whether or not they personally gained financially from this mess.



Normally I would agree with this 100%....however when I read through the SEC doc there were mentions of at least a couple other shell companies with principals other than Q and Stenger I thought....I could be wrong but North East Contract Services LLC is run by William Kelly....COO of Jay.  

Also, Jr. he had to know something.

RJ broker ex SIL.....oblivious?  Probably.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 18, 2016)

So I am going to show my ignorance here with these questions. Does knowing that someone is doing something illegal and not telling someone, a crime? Even if Ary, Bill's kids or other staff members were aware of this, does that open the possibility to civil or criminal charges? Is it up to these people to understand the rules and regulations governing the EB-5 program to actually be able to determine something is illegal?

On an other note, I was always under the impression that Steiger was part owner in the Jay Peak Resort. After reading through everything it appears that he never was an owner.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Does knowing that someone is doing something illegal and not telling someone, a crime? Even if Ary, Bill's kids or other staff members were aware of this, does that open the possibility to civil or criminal charges?



I have always wondered this too.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

Stenger responds....at least to the Caledonian Record:



> NEWPORT CITY — Jay Peak Resort CEO and President Bill Stenger said he was surprised by some of the state and federal lawsuits over misuse and fraud of millions in EB-5 foreign investments in the Northeast Kingdom projects he spearheaded.
> 
> And he thanked his family and employees at Jay Peak for their support in the last few days.
> 
> ...


----------



## mriceyman (Apr 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Stenger responds....at least to the Caledonian Record:



Stenger going with the trying to figure it all out defense. Cant blame him 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Harvey (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm using that defense too.


----------



## River19 (Apr 18, 2016)

"What? Me?  I couldn't have done those things......we need to get to the bottom of this....."

"For the past 2900 days I had no inkling that all those funds I wired broke damn near every rule of the Limited Partnership agreements........you mean the big Q wasn't dutifully sitting on the investors cash ready to deploy it on those economy saving projects?.....I mean sure I thought it was odd that any accountant that got close to it couldn't get account statements to reconcile for the past 8 years but......wow this is a shock, we need to get to the bottom of this really quick."

".....oh, those revenue projections for ANC Bio? and the FDA process?.....well those revenue projections would be realistic if the Korean firm didn't go belly up a while ago and I have been meaning to call the FDA to find out what I have to do to make fake body parts in VT.......I mean how complicated could that be?  Right?.....hey anyone know the number for a good lawyer?  I also have this waterfront property in Newport I would like to sell you.....a fixer upper if I ever saw one...."


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 18, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2016)

http://www.wcax.com/story/31755600/...ls-in-the-spotlight-after-alleged-kingdom-con


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

The early season pass price window has been extended from May 9th to July 11th for both Jay Peak and Burke.

That is a smart move.  

Steve Wright posted the news on Facebook from Puerto Rico.  Hopefully he's getting some nice time at the beach before tackling everything at Jay Peak.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

There was an article in today's Caledonian Record about the new GM taking over at Jay Peak.  The article mentioned that there are 550 employees in the summer and fewer during shoulder season.

If $250 million has been invested at Jay Peak, that's 500 EB-5 investors.  Each investment is supposed to create 10 jobs, so there should be 5,000 jobs that wouldn't have existed otherwise.  

I know that "indirect" jobs are included, but this just shows how absurd these job calculations are.  In reality, about $350 million was raised - including Burke and AnC Bio.  So in total there should have been 7,000 new jobs created.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 19, 2016)

How many employees during the winter?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> How many employees during the winter?



I heard Stenger give the number last year.  Unfortunately, I can't remember what he said.  My best recollection is that the number is around 1,400.  Lots of these are part-timers.  Prior to EB-5 the resort employed 100 in the summer.  So EB-5 has created a mere 450 jobs for several months out of the year.

Stenger talked about bringing "as many as 10,000 jobs to an area economically depressed for generations."  (see here: http://vermontlife.com/tag/jay-peak/ )

But, yeah... he's completely innocent in this charade...


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 19, 2016)

Don't forget the 3 employees still left at Burke or was that 4.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There was an article in today's Caledonian Record about the new GM taking over at Jay Peak.  The article mentioned that there are 550 employees in the summer and fewer during shoulder season.
> 
> If $250 million has been invested at Jay Peak, that's 500 EB-5 investors.  Each investment is supposed to create 10 jobs, so there should be 5,000 jobs that wouldn't have existed otherwise.
> 
> I know that "indirect" jobs are included, but this just shows how absurd these job calculations are.  In reality, about $350 million was raised - including Burke and AnC Bio.  So in total there should have been 7,000 new jobs created.



It took a lot of jobs to build that unit at Trump Place.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Don't forget the 3 employees still left at Burke or was that 4.



As long as Sarah "stands by the Q," there are three people at the Burke hotel.


----------



## abc (Apr 19, 2016)

mbedle said:


> So I am going to show my ignorance here with these questions. Does knowing that someone is doing something illegal and not telling someone, a crime? Even if Ary, Bill's kids or other staff members were aware of this, does that open the possibility to civil or criminal charges? Is it up to these people to understand the rules and regulations governing the EB-5 program to actually be able to determine something is illegal?


I think the bar is a bit lower than that. It's only criminal if they're expected to understand it and advice on the legality of it, like the lawyers and accountants involved. 

I don't think it's a crime if you saw a murder but not reporting it. Immoral but not criminal. 

On the other hand, if someone took advantage of it and got financial gain, they might be in trouble as part of a conspiracy. They may need a good lawyer.

I'm not a lawyer though.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 19, 2016)

Also from the article in the Cal-Rec is this quote from Steve:



> “This team that comes in from LHR are a real professional bunch,” Wright said Monday.[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]“They are experienced hospitality folks, experienced resort folks.”[/FONT]



Reading between the lines, that doesn't bode well for Q Jr at Burke. His track record for running a resort is exactly the opposite. I really hope he is either gone from Burke within the next month or completely marginalized. I think everyone is really hoping for the former. Ary Jr being off of the payroll would be a HUGE boost to the mountain's image both locally and region-wide.

Unfortunately, we are probably stuck with the "Q" name for the foreseeable future until the legal and financial mess that Ary Sr has created is unraveled and a new "corporation" takes over and can officially drop the "Q".


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2016)

I would think Steve would be championing JRs dismissal.  Wasn't Steve promoted to GM at Burke to replace Ary at one point?  It lasted a very short length of time IRRC.  I can't imagine him being the most positive work reference for Ary with LHR.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Also from the article in the Cal-Rec is this quote from Steve:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While they can't legally change the name, there is no reason why they need to include the "Q" in their marketing materials.  

I really do believe that Ary is a short-timer.  Keep in mind that a company in Kansas is going to have absolutely no idea what was happening at Q Burke.  They've only been there for a few days.  They will learn quickly, no doubt.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

The "I Stand With the Q" blog post is still on Q Burke's website.  The new management company really needs to remove it.

Every time I see the article headline, I am reminded of this:

View attachment 20030


----------



## River19 (Apr 19, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Also from the article in the Cal-Rec is this quote from Steve:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree 100%.  I also can't see how he would want to stay or could stay, everyone in Vermont knows his whole modern existence from a professional standpoint is tied to one of the biggest farces in New England history.

Think Madoff's kids could have stayed around in the investment business if they weren't implicated (may they rest in peace)?

In both the short and long term, his daddy is not running Burke, and I don't see why anyone but daddy would have kept him there.  I think the Range Rover will be heading down the hill for good within weeks.....and then hopefully repossessed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

River19 said:


> I agree 100%.  I also can't see how he would want to stay or could stay, everyone in Vermont knows his whole modern existence from a professional standpoint is tied to one of the biggest farces in New England history.
> 
> Think Madoff's kids could have stayed around in the investment business if they weren't implicated (may they rest in peace)?
> 
> In both the short and long term, his daddy is not running Burke, and I don't see why anyone but daddy would have kept him there.  I think the Range Rover will be heading down the hill for good within weeks.....and then hopefully repossessed.



The comparison between Madoff and Q is eerily similar.  Both preferred to "remain in the shadows" and both were very proud of their "false" accomplishments.


----------



## mister moose (Apr 19, 2016)

abc said:


> I don't think it's a crime if you saw a murder but not reporting it. Immoral but not criminal.



The phrase "accessory after the fact" comes to mind.


----------



## River19 (Apr 19, 2016)

Great show with Galloway and the State folks on VPR right now....rebroadcast at 7pm


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

River19 said:


> Great show with Galloway and the State folks on VPR right now....rebroadcast at 7pm



Yep.  They are doing another one next week in the NEK on the impacts.  Stay tuned.


----------



## abc (Apr 19, 2016)

mister moose said:


> The phrase "accessory after the fact" comes to mind.


Only if one actively helps covering it up.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

And am going to post this......I don't think that the State is out of the woods on this one:


----------



## mister moose (Apr 19, 2016)

abc said:


> Only if one actively helps covering it up.



If you assist after the fact with intent to help the perpetrator avoid getting caught.  Does saying nothing assist Quiros?   Probably something more useful to a prosecutor as leverage to get cooperation than to take to trial.


----------



## abc (Apr 19, 2016)

mister moose said:


> Does saying nothing assist Quiros?


Although I'm not a lawyer, the basics about our law is you can't commit a crime without DOING something!

So, not doing something you morally should do isn't a crime. And I doubt any prosecutor will get much out of someone like that. Police perhaps, if they think they can get away with hinting the above to an uneducated individual. Once a lawyer is involve, there's no chance that tactic can work at all.

The exception of course, is for those who's job is to DO SOMETHING about criminal activity. A policeman who does nothing about a murder would be criminal.


----------



## River19 (Apr 19, 2016)

My question, and a question someone called into the VPR show with today is still around the legality of the ownership of both Jay and Burke.  The question wasn't really answered as the courts need to weigh in but.......

If both Jay and Burke were bought with EB-5 funds, which broke the limited partnership agreements and violated damn near every SEC rule governing these investments........how can Quiros....or WILL Quiros still be considered the legal owner of both mountains?  I can make an easier case for a number of Chinese would be immigrants being share owners of the mountains instead of Quiros.  Their money was used without their knowledge to buy them.  

If I buy a car illegally with money I control from say the local school committee, do I technically still own the car when the fit hits the shan?


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 19, 2016)

abc said:


> Although I'm not a lawyer, the basics about our law is you can't commit a crime without DOING something!



I guess you never saw the last episode of Seinfeld.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 19, 2016)

VPR has an article and a link to Quiros' original SEC deposition, a year before VT started investigating.

http://digital.vpr.net/post/documents-show-feds-were-quiros-long-state-launched-probe#stream/0


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 19, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> VPR has an article and a link to Quiros' original SEC deposition, a year before VT started investigating.
> 
> http://digital.vpr.net/post/documents-show-feds-were-quiros-long-state-launched-probe#stream/0



From the depositions, it sounds like he thinks he made the money trail so difficult to follow that he doesn't think they would ever be able to bring charges.

The fact that he starts blaming the beginning of this fiasco on state legislators "begging" him to buy Jay Peak is ridiculous as well. They may have been begging him but I have a feeling he knew he could take advantage of their desperation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

You can see his defense strategy: Blame his money handlers.  I especially like how he threw William Kelly under the bus.

Don't forget that if he lied under oath he could face criminal charges for that alone.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

From Quiros' deposition:
*Q:* Okay. Could you take me through the
different types of fees you would be entitled to
for each project?

*A:* I cannot give all of the details. I
know of the construction fees, supervision fees,
architectural fees, permitting fees, a lot of
fees.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 19, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> a lot of
> fees.


He left out the TTCSF fee.


aka Trump Tower Condo Slush Fund Fee


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 19, 2016)

Later in the deposition he says that his profit was about 20% of what was invested.  This is what boggles my mind.  He could have pocketed his 20% and been a very rich man.  But allegedly that was not good enough.

Another interesting tidbit from the deposition is that Quiros apparently gave Stenger a 15% equity stake in Jay Peak, only to later take it away.  

I've read about 20% of the deposition, and my eyes are glazing over.  That's enough for me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2016)

I've skimmed some of that deposition and he sounds crazy.  He also cannot lie very well.  His explanation as to how he got the money to buy Jay Peak makes no sense at all.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 19, 2016)

Does Ary count? How is he still employed? If Mike Pappalardo's employment was considered a conflict of interest, how is Ary's not?


----------



## yotefan (Apr 19, 2016)

Funny, he calls Bill Kelly a "shithead" in the Q Empire piece.


----------



## River19 (Apr 20, 2016)

So, I've read a good number of pages of that lovely deposition from 2014.

Let's state first that I work for a very large corporation currently and have worked for other smaller ($500M/yr revenue) companies along the way.  I've met many successful business folks over the years and in reading this deposition, in my humble opinion, this man is not sophisticated enough to build a 9 figure business empire without something shady going on.

The man can't even explain how his "company/business" makes money, even in the simplest terms: 

"Q Okay. Could you take me through the
different types of fees you would be entitled to
for each project?

A I cannot give all of the details. I
know of the construction fees, supervision fees,
architectural fees, permitting fees, a lot of
fees."

There isn't a business owner in the world that can't clearly explain how their company makes money if they are truly in business.  Of course he is trying to not say "I just took what I wanted of the money".....


I'm even giving him the benefit of the doubt as far as the poor English is concerned. The referring to himself in the 3rd person is also an interesting quirk.

I'm honestly not sure how the SEC lawyers kept a straight face during this.  I can't imagine what his lawyer was thinking.

Reading the latest response and plea from Q in the BFP rings hollow on someone that read this whole mess.


----------



## River19 (Apr 20, 2016)

So, I've read a good number of pages of that lovely deposition from 2014.

Let's state first that I work for a very large corporation currently and have worked for other smaller ($500M/yr revenue) companies along the way.  I've met many successful business folks over the years and in reading this deposition, in my humble opinion, this man is not sophisticated enough to build a 9 figure business empire without something shady going on.

The man can't even explain how his "company/business" makes money, even in the simplest terms: 

"Q Okay. Could you take me through the
different types of fees you would be entitled to
for each project?

A I cannot give all of the details. I
know of the construction fees, supervision fees,
architectural fees, permitting fees, a lot of
fees."

There isn't a business owner in the world that can't clearly explain how their company makes money if they are truly in business.  Of course he is trying to not say "I just took what I wanted of the money".....


I'm even giving him the benefit of the doubt as far as the poor English is concerned. The referring to himself in the 3rd person is also an interesting quirk.

I'm honestly not sure how the SEC lawyers kept a straight face during this.  I can't imagine what his lawyer was thinking.

Reading the latest response and plea from Q in the BFP rings hollow on someone that read this whole mess.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

I think that his naivety was on purpose.  It's clear that his strategy is to blame everyone else but himself.  

I think that he knows EXACTLY what was going on.


----------



## River19 (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that his naivety was on purpose.  It's clear that his strategy is to blame everyone else but himself.
> 
> I think that he knows EXACTLY what was going on.



I think I agree with you.  I believe he knew exactly what was happening and what he was doing from the standpoint of running a fraudulent enterprise/ponzi scheme.  What I don't believe is that he comes across as someone sophisticated enough to run a 9 figure operation above board.


This whole "one window system" makes me laugh the way he explains it.

It's like Madoff saying something like "all these investments are really confusing so I just liquidated them all and put the money in my checking account so it was easier to control and keep track of".....


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

The "one window system" was a pretty pathetic attempt at explaining his shenanigans.  I wonder what William Kelly is thinking right now.  It's quite clear that Quiros is willing to have Kelly be the fall guy.  I guess that's what you get for standing by Quiros for all of these years.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Quiros has asked the court to unfreeze his assets so he can pay his attorney and his basic living expenses.

He puts his net worth at approximately $200 million.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../19/ariel-quiros-unfreeze-my-assets/83257644/


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Quiros has asked the court to unfreeze his assets so he can pay his attorney and his basic living expenses.
> 
> He puts his net worth at approximately $200 million.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../19/ariel-quiros-unfreeze-my-assets/83257644/



Man, my living expenses are more than $50 million.  Aren't yours?


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Quiros has asked the court to unfreeze his assets so he can pay his attorney and his basic living expenses.
> 
> He puts his net worth at approximately $200 million.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../19/ariel-quiros-unfreeze-my-assets/83257644/




Which begs the question, if he's really worth 200m why in the world would you steal this money?


----------



## mister moose (Apr 20, 2016)

For what its worth, in another State oversight blunder case, it took from January 5, 2016 when the Michigan governor declared an emergency for Flint water until now for criminal charges to be filed.  106 days.

A different case obviously, but likely indicative of what can be expected for a large high profile case.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I've skimmed some of that deposition and he sounds crazy.  He also cannot lie very well.  His explanation as to how he got the money to buy Jay Peak makes no sense at all.


I agree that Q just sounds crazy from the transcript. He basically believed from the beginning that by purchasing Jay Peak, he was owed more than the purchase price in management fees by the early EB-5 projects, which is what he used to fund the purchase! He also believed that, as soon as he got control of EB-5 moneys in investment accounts at Raymond James, he was entitled to 20% of the funds as a management fee. He further believed that if he bought treasury bonds in those funds, he could then take out margin loans from the accounts backed by the bonds and spend the money however he saw fit. From there he proceeded to pay back the margin loans from the next EB-5 project. I suppose in the end he just looted the AncBio project. Apparently Stenger is in all the way and Quiros is trying to throw Bill Kelly and George Gulisano under the bus also. He also is poorly prepared by his attorney. He provides endless narrative explanations which is a bad practice. The appropriate answers are- yes, no, a simple direct answer if you know something, I don't know or I don't recall. If asked what a document means- it speaks for itself.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Stenger is innocent???

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/20/seni...-him-new-investors-would-fund-prior-projects/


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 20, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Stenger is innocent???
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/20/seni...-him-new-investors-would-fund-prior-projects/



Article is must read if you want to understand this thing without getting a headache. I had not seen this before I gave my gloss of the Quiros deposition above. Basically, because Quiros admitted so much, it lines up exactly.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> Article is must read if you want to understand this thing without getting a headache. I had not seen this before I gave my gloss of the Quiros deposition above. Basically, because Quiros admitted so much, it lines up exactly.



I find it interesting that Stenger's supporters want you to believe that he is a genius when it comes to running a multi-million dollar ski resort, but is a complete ignoramus when it comes to running his EB-5 projects.

I do, however, feel sorry that his legacy will be all about the EB-5 mess.  A lot of good work he has done in the past will be forgotten.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

This affidavit from Jay Peak's former comptroller is interesting:
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2805302/EXHIBIT-65-John-Carpenter-Worked-for-BS.pdf

Two things that I picked up on:
- There appears to be an email trail to show that Stenger knew that EB-5 funds were being misused as far back as 2010.
- Douglas Hulme of Rapid USA Visas was apparently made aware of this situation as far back as 2010, yet they did not part ways with Jay Peak until 2012.  They aren't quite as squeaky clean as I had originally though if the allegations in this affidavit are true.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 20, 2016)

Dang VTK, you keep this up, VermontDigger is gonna want to hire you as an investigative reporter!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Dang VTK, you keep this up, VermontDigger is gonna want to hire you as an investigative reporter!



This has not helped my work productivity.  I've been staying late too many evenings to make up for the lost time during the day!

I like a good puzzle, and that's why this has interested me so much.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2016)

Stenger broke his silence.  He says what you would expect, that he had no idea any wrongdoing was going on:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/20/stenger-i-didnt-think-anything-wrong-was-going-on/

His timing isn't so great since the article about the Controller was posted on the same day.  That's the article that references the email allegedly advising Stenger as far back as 2010 that the money from a later project was being used to pay for an earlier project.

Stenger said that he has a "handshake deal" with Quiros to own 20% of Jay Peak.  Quiros, in his testimony to the SEC, stated that Stenger had a 15% interest but that Quiros took it away.  Methinks that Stenger should have gotten his deal in writing.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 20, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> I agree that Q just sounds crazy from the transcript. He basically believed from the beginning that by purchasing Jay Peak, he was owed more than the purchase price in management fees by the early EB-5 projects, which is what he used to fund the purchase! He also believed that, as soon as he got control of EB-5 moneys in investment accounts at Raymond James, he was entitled to 20% of the funds as a management fee. He further believed that if he bought treasury bonds in those funds, he could then take out margin loans from the accounts backed by the bonds and spend the money however he saw fit. From there he proceeded to pay back the margin loans from the next EB-5 project. I suppose in the end he just looted the AncBio project. Apparently Stenger is in all the way and Quiros is trying to throw Bill Kelly and George Gulisano under the bus also. He also is poorly prepared by his attorney. He provides endless narrative explanations which is a bad practice. The appropriate answers are- yes, no, a simple direct answer if you know something, I don't know or I don't recall. If asked what a document means- it speaks for itself.




I had to stop maybe half way in, but yeah, seems to me like he offered up the details of his ponzi scheme in pretty great detail!

At first it seemed to me like it never occurred to him that they would have copies of his bank statements on hand....at one point he even remarks at how much work these guys went thought to get all these abatements! - but he kept saying 'they owed jay peak money'....and that made the deal do-able....huh?

He seemed to think they would just take that at face value!

Then they just walked him through it....and he did seem to suggest that by buying T-bills, that would allow him to margin the accounts and use that borrowed money however he so chose!

Oh my dear go in heaven.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## telemike (Apr 20, 2016)

I find it interesting that at least ten people I've talked to over here in NH haven't even heard of this story yet


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 20, 2016)

telemike said:


> I find it interesting that at least ten people I've talked to over here in NH haven't even heard of this story yet




They aren't missing anything.

Rich people stealing money and pretending they had no idea they were wrong.  It is all for the lawyers now.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 20, 2016)

kingdom-tele said:


> Rich people stealing money and pretending they had no idea they were wrong.  It is all for the lawyers now.



This a recursive statement.



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## River19 (Apr 21, 2016)

One of the best quotes from the big Q deposition that I just can't stop laughing at is:


"I don't know what this is, but I know whatever it is, it is what it is."

Got it?  Clear as day.......


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

The Caledonian Record has an absolutely bizarre editorial that ran today:



Last week state and federal officials held a press conference, announced an SEC complaint, and took down Ariel Quiros Sr. and Bill Stenger.

The 81-page SEC filing alleges that Quiros got in trouble when he bought Jay Peak with investor funds specifically earmarked for other projects. From that point forward Quiros allegedly used new investment funds to cover past bills in a classic ponzi scheme. In order to accomplish that, he had to set up lines of credit through his investment firm – collateralize them with other investor funds – and commingle most of it to keep the money flowing. It means that, from the beginning, money coming into coffers was allegedly diverted from specific uses promised to investors.

Stenger is accused of knowingly facilitating the scheme by transferring money, and fiduciary control of it, to Quiros.

The feds called it a “massive fraud” and painted Quiros and Stenger as really terrible actors. Online chatter suggests the populist masses are ready to take up their pitchforks. That, of course, is what the press-conference was intended to accomplish.

But take the time to read the 81-page complaint, and you might realize two things. First, the list of Quiros’ alleged “ill-gotten gains” – namely the Jay Peak resort and condo at Trump Towers – could have all been covered by lawful fees commanded by the de- velopers. Second, they never stopped investing in their projects. They just did it with shoddy book-keeping and excessive free- wheeling. How does that differ from Peter Shumlin’s $200 million criminal incompetence on Vermont Health Connect? Or daily squandering, commingling, and diverting taxpayer funds from their intended uses by your state and federal governments?

That’s not to forgive Quiros’ alleged mismanagement or ill-gotten gains – if it is indeed proven that he enjoyed any. But it is to recall how much Quiros and Stenger accomplished in an area not historically known as a growth market.

Despite their alleged missteps, we still believe Quiros and Stenger were trying to create jobs and fulfill their promises. And we sincerely believe they would have gotten away with it had not been for the meddling state.

Since the pair actually built a lot of stuff, all is certainly not lost. Attempts will be made to make investors whole and keep the re- sorts operating until such time as new owners can be found. The prognosis is worse for downtown Newport, and the AnC Bio proj- ect, but we wouldn’t ever bet against the hard-working people of Orleans County to turn a liability into an asset.

As far as bottom lines go, though, last week’s press conference took Quiros and Stenger out of the EB-5 development game for good. It takes a lot less time to tear down than to build up, and - however Quiros and Stenger are ultimately judged - last week’s takedown extinguished a lot of high hopes for the Northeast Kingdom.



.


----------



## abc (Apr 21, 2016)

Not that bizarre.

Sarcasm poorly executed. 

"And we sincerely believe they would have gotten away with it had not been for the meddling state."


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

abc said:


> Not that bizarre.
> 
> Sarcasm poorly executed.
> 
> "And we sincerely believe they would have gotten away with it had not been for the meddling state."



Trust me.  It's not sarcasm.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

Yeah... "meddling State"... When it's now obvious that the Feds have been all over this for a looong time now...


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 21, 2016)

Wow - A Scooby Do reference...strange stuff there.

And this is what really worries me - that the whole Jay model is unsustainable absent a ponzi scheme based on new EB5 money flowing in every couple of years....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 21, 2016)

The Cal-Rec has absolutely no love for our current governor and his administration (a lot of which is deserved). However, they are trying WAY to hard to make this look like a foul up by Shumlin while whitewashing the fact that Quiros is a shady character with greedy intentions.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 21, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Wow - A Scooby Do reference...strange stuff there.
> 
> And this is what really worries me - that the whole Jay model is unsustainable absent a ponzi scheme based on new EB5 money flowing in every couple of years....


The fact there was a lot of money being skimmed off the top doesn't help any of these projects look profitable.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> And this is what really worries me - that the whole Jay model is unsustainable absent a ponzi scheme based on new EB5 money flowing in every couple of years....


That's always been the concern with these EB-5 projects, and BenedictGomez deserves credit for pointing this out a long time ago.  There is a reason that the banks won't touch these projects with a ten foot pole.

On the other hand, if you read between the lines, things look more stable at Jay Peak than they do at Q Burke.  (Not that this should be a surprise.)  The Receiver has asked for money to get Q Burke through the next 13 weeks, but has not made the same request for Jay Peak.


----------



## abc (Apr 21, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> However, they are trying WAY to hard to make this look like a foul up by Shumlin while whitewashing the fact that Quiros is a shady character with greedy intentions.


"_they __would have gotten away with it "

_That doesn't sound whitewash to me.


----------



## abc (Apr 21, 2016)

I'm a little confused at the latest blame game towards the state government. Jay Peak is basically a private enterprise, is it not? So some shady character had use it to run a ponzi scheme. What's the state's responsibility in that? 

When Madoff's scheme got exposed, SEC was blamed, rightly, for failing to act on tips from ironically, competitors. The NY state or city government were not involved until the stage of filing criminal charges. 

In the Jay Peak's case, it's the investors who complain to the SEC. They maybe again slow to act. But I'm missing the connection to the state government. Is it the EB visa program that they're suppose to be overseeing?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 21, 2016)

abc said:


> I'm a little confused at the latest blame game towards the state government. Jay Peak is basically a private enterprise, is it not? So some shady character had use it to run a ponzi scheme. What's the state's responsibility in that?
> 
> When Madoff's scheme got exposed, SEC was blamed, rightly, for failing to act on tips from ironically, competitors. The NY state or city government were not involved until the stage of filing criminal charges.
> 
> In the Jay Peak's case, it's the investors who complain to the SEC. They maybe again slow to act. But I'm missing the connection to the state government. Is it the EB visa program that they're suppose to be overseeing?



It was a large EB-5 project(s) that the state agency was supposed to be oversee but looked like nothing more than cheerleaders for a long time before noticing something was wrong (tipped off by the SEC snooping around) and finally beefing up their oversight.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 21, 2016)

Good article posted over on TGR this morning might explain the state & governments role a little better.

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 21, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Good article posted over on TGR this morning might explain the state & governments role a little better.
> 
> http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer



Good article. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian Record has an absolutely bizarre editorial that ran today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That makes no sense at all.  The "they would have gotten away with it" line was just stupid.  So it is OK for fraud to occur if it benefited the community?  Sounds like a defensive editorial board to me.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 21, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That makes no sense at all.  The "they would have gotten away with it" line was just stupid.  So it is OK for fraud to occur if it benefited the community?  Sounds like a defensive editorial board to me.



The Cal-Rec had been supporting Stenger-Quiros right through this late winter even when things looked like the projects were turning sour. Blaming the entire "failure" at Burke (massive layoff and hotel delays) on the state "withholding" the EB5 money. 
Unlike many individuals (I included myself in this group) that have admitted their faith in Stenger/Quiros had been misplaced, the Cal-Rec seems to have doubled down in their defense of them. It almost seems like they took a page out of the Ary Quiros Jr book of doubling down on a position in the face of pretty overwhelming evidence. 
Pretty much saying:
These guys really aren't that bad! 
Look at all they've done for our region!


----------



## River19 (Apr 21, 2016)

As I have said multiple times, a $55M hotel on Burke, the 9 figure investment in projects at Jay, etc. don't make one ounce of sense outside of the EB-5 program.  What kind of ROI can someone really pull out of a $55M hotel investment on Burke Mountain?  Does someone really think that hotel building and resort will ever have an EBIT of even $2-4M per year?

Heck it looks like Jay Peak with all its fancy hotels and water parks and skier visits and hockey tournies etc. still can't get into the black let alone turn even a 1% ROI on the funds invested in that joint.

It looks more and more like Stenger and Q were even burning investor funds to keep daily bodily functions of the JP business running.

I still maintain that Q and Jr are barely qualified to run a fast food joint in Vt let alone a 9 figure business.........or should I say a 7 figure business they spent 9 figures of others money building......


----------



## tumbler (Apr 21, 2016)

The hotel probably wasn't 55M, my guess more like 35-40M for a building that size.  Since Peak, S&Q are partners that makes it easy to inflate.  
The play is going to be to renovate a majority of rooms into condo units and sell fractional and full shares.  Owners can put their units into the rental pool and will pay assocaition fees to cover O&M costs.  The discount it will be sold at will allow a developer plenty of room to renovate, sell and still make a nice profit as long as not greedy and overprice.  It would be even sweeter if they sold them as individual entities so to not get stuck with the mountain.  I think this scenerio will also happen at Jay.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> Heck it looks like Jay Peak with all its fancy hotels and water parks and skier visits and hockey tournies etc. still can't get into the black let alone turn even a 1% ROI on the funds invested in that joint.



The way all investments were comingled, I'm afraid it is impossible at this point to know if Jay Peak is making or losing money, let alone know by how much.  And I'm quite sure Jay Peak does not know either at this point.

The receiver will have to figure it out prior to the sale.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> *Think Madoff's kids could have stayed around in the investment business if they weren't implicated (may they rest in peace)*?



There's a great song called "Devil's Son", about Madoff's kid's suicide. Really catchy violin ornamentation / rolls.








from_the_NEK said:


> *The Cal-Rec had been supporting Stenger-Quiros right through this* late winter even when things looked like the projects were turning sour.



Every time someone posts an article from that paper, I read it, and come to the same conclusion that the people who put that rag out are complete morons.



> Stenger put the investor funds in separate accounts in People’s Bank  and then transferred the money to accounts at Raymond James.* Quiros then  put pooled investor money in U.S. Treasury Bills and used it as  collateral for margin loans.*



This guy's not even an evil genius, he's an evil idiot.


----------



## amf (Apr 22, 2016)

Reminds me of the structuring of a very large nursery near me that ultimately went under some years ago. They had at least a dozen separate companies - one owned land, one owned machinery, one actually bought stock from another. It appeared successful until it was sold, when it was obvious it was just churning the same $$ around. Unfortunately, it appears to be the way much of the corporate world is structured theses days.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 22, 2016)

It's pretty common to have separate business entities especially with real estate.  This spreads liability and risk around.  There is nothing illegal about that.

Why is it unfortunate?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2016)

The Caledonian Record is reporting that liens have been filed up at Jay Peak, including by Mike's Electric.


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## burski (Apr 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian Record is reporting that liens have been filed up at Jay Peak, including by Mike's Electric.



Since Mike's is probably partially owned by Q, one could argue Q is still looking for ways to get money out of that place....


----------



## River19 (Apr 22, 2016)

burski said:


> Since Mike's is probably partially owned by Q, one could argue Q is still looking for ways to get money out of that place....



Yeah, $50M doesn't go as far as it used to ......


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## River19 (Apr 22, 2016)

I finally finished that mess of a Quiros deposition.....I feel like I just watched "12 Monkeys" or "The Matrix" again......you read it and you go....."WTF is this guy talking about....."


Does anyone know if there is a similar deposition file available for Bill Kelly or "George"?  If so is there a linky?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2016)

The Caledonian Record reported that the state of Vermont posted Stenger's depositions on the Department of Financial Regulation's website.  I haven't found it, though.  If you find it post a link.


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## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

Its exhibit 40, plus there are all the depositions. Its under Media/Public - Press Releases and Related Documents

http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/jay-peak-eb-5-lawsuit

Sorry - that was wrong. its 37


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## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

Looks like Ary did have his hands in this. Apparently he's an officer or director at the ANC Bio LLC.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2016)

Of all the EB-5 companies, that's allegedly by far the most shady.  


.


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## River19 (Apr 22, 2016)

I poked around their website but I haven't found any links to the depositions....I read the SEC Quiros one obviously and the one from the previous CFO at Jay but I would love to read what Stenger, George et al also testified...


----------



## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

River19 said:


> I poked around their website but I haven't found any links to the depositions....I read the SEC Quiros one obviously and the one from the previous CFO at Jay but I would love to read what Stenger, George et al also testified...




http://www.dfr.vermont.gov/jay-peak-eb-5-lawsuit

Go to this website and click on Media / Public - Press Release and Related Documents. Its under that link, exhibit 37.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 22, 2016)

I dont see anywhere about exhibit any number.I did find this link to testimonies.http://www.sec.gov/news/testimony


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## mbedle (Apr 22, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> I dont see anywhere about exhibit any number.I did find this link to testimonies.http://www.sec.gov/news/testimony




Sorry - click on legal documents and than the bottom link.


----------



## River19 (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks guys......


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Sorry - click on legal documents and than the bottom link.



Got it now.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Ary did have his hands in this. Apparently he's an officer or director at the ANC Bio LLC.



So how long before the Receiver finally declares "conflict of interest" and shows him the door?


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 22, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> So how long before the Receiver finally declares "conflict of interest" and shows him the door?



My guess is once the motion is granted to take control of all of the Burke entities including the ski area.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 22, 2016)

Article about Sugarbush's use of EB-5 with some quotes from Win Smith on the program and situation with Jay/Burke.

http://valleyreporter.com/stories/news/11269-sugarbush-use-of-eb-5-program-was-successful

Nothing earth-shattering here, but figured I'd share anyway.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 22, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> My guess is once the motion is granted to take control of all of the Burke entities including the ski area.



They booted Mike Pappalardo right away at the takeover, supposedly due to "conflict of interest"... just surprising Jr was kept.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They booted Mike Pappalardo right away at the takeover, supposedly due to "conflict of interest"... just surprising Jr was kept.



Oh I imagine that Ary is there to show them where things are...and that he will probably be gone soon.  However, he never did know where things were.  When the Sherburne Lodge had a fire sprinkler break in January he had no idea where the water main valve was.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> When the Sherburne Lodge had a fire sprinkler break in January he had no idea where the water main valve was.


And everyone that did know had either been fired or quit...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> And everyone that did know had either been fired or quit...



Exactly.  I heard that it was a sad and confusing sight that night when the Fire Department responded.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

Another day another Caledonian Record article.  This article is about the court hearing in Miami.  The Receiver asked for funds to keep the ski areas going.

Remember how EB-5 was supposed to make Jay Peak prosperous and profitable?  Remember how the funds to fix the tram were supposed to be set aside already?  Guess again.



> Goldberg, the receiver, and his attorney explained to the judge that millions are needed for Jay Peak and Q Burke’s operations, including a gondola that needs repair at Jay Peak for at least $1 million, maybe up to $1.3 million, and which there are not sufficient funds to cover.
> 
> Goldberg said he is seeking to borrow between $7-11.5 million which will be needed for the receivership to keep the resorts running and ready them for ski season next year.



Quiros objected to the $750,000 loan because he says that these funds are being used to secure a Citibank loan.  The judge said, "too bad."  (Note: At this point the Receiver has only asked for $750,000.  That number is obviously going to go MUCH higher.)

There is some good news.  The judge granted the motion for the Burke hotel to come under receivership.

And there may be a white knight for Burke.  I wonder who it could be... ahem... ahem...



> He (Goldberg) said he has spoken to two parties, including the State of Vermont and a private party who is from Burke and “who is not very complimentary or friendly with Mr. Quiros,” but may be willing to lend funds. Both potential funding sources would require assurances that Quiros is not coming back into the picture, he said.



Bottom line: BenedictGomez is being proven right in every way.  I've also long maintained that Jay Peak hemorrhages money in the summer.  I'm going to pat myself on the back for that one.

What's really alarming about this is that Jay Peak has no money even though they haven't yet begun making more than a minimal amount of token payments to Phase 1 investors.  This whole thing was CLEARLY a house of cards.  Those investors didn't stand a chance in hell of getting repaid in full.  And I'm willing to bet that Stenger was VERY optimistic to future investors on his recent trips to South Africa and Vietnam.  Yet he wants you to believe that he is completely innocent here.  Right...


----------



## mbedle (Apr 23, 2016)

I think you need to understand that just because Jay Peak doesn't have any money in their checking account, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't turn a profit over the entire year. I would guess that given what is happening on the EB-5 projects and Quiros' business decision, every penny that resort made was transferred from its accounts to the owner.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I think you need to understand that just because Jay Peak doesn't have any money in their checking account, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't turn a profit over the entire year. I would guess that given what is happening on the EB-5 projects and Quiros' business decision, every penny that resort made was transferred from its accounts to the owner.


That will be interesting to see.  If it is true, it at least signifies that Quiros had no intention whatsoever of repaying the investors.  But that shouldn't come as a shock at this point.

It still verifies my belief that summer isn't living up to what they had hoped for.

I'm still skeptical that Jay Peak turns an overall profit, but only time will tell.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm still skeptical that Jay Peak turns an overall profit, but only time will tell.



If it cannot turn a profit, there's no hope for most ski resorts.   They do have 70 weddings planned this summer, the ice-house is booked 40-45 week-ends per year and a few weeks during summer.   It used to be a ghost town in the summer, not anymore. Tremblant it ain't, but nobody wants Jay Peak to turn into Tremblant. 

Could they turn a profit while entirely repaying all investors ?  Of course not.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> If it is true, it at least signifies that Quiros had no intention whatsoever of repaying the investors.



This has been clear for a while and especially since the tramhouse lodge shenanigans.  However, it was clear from the beginning that these infrastrucures could not be funded via a simple 5-year interest free loan.  To me it was always 'get a green card for 500k' and consider yourself lucky if you see any money down the line.  But clearly, it's not what they told the investors.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2016)

Saying that you believed Jay lost money during summer is almost a water is wet comment. Very few ski areas so much as break even during the summer. The three ski areas I worked at and had access to their financials did not turn a profit during summer. Snowshoe had massive weekend events, but was a ghost town midweek. The only reason they stayed open at all was to sell real estate. Another of those areas was Stowe, but pre-hotel days. The third was Wisp, which is located right on Deep Creek Lake, MD; a popular summer destination.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That will be interesting to see.  If it is true, it at least signifies that Quiros had no intention whatsoever of repaying the investors.  But that shouldn't come as a shock at this point.
> 
> It still verifies my belief that summer isn't living up to what they had hoped for.
> 
> I'm still skeptical that Jay Peak turns an overall profit, but only time will tell.



I think it more supports that Stenger and Quiros had more concerns with covering their overruns with any profits.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 23, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Saying that you believed Jay lost money during summer is almost a water is wet comment.



We're taking year-round profit.  Time will tell.   If the resort cannot make any profit as some of you are implying, nobody will want to buy it once it goes for sale.   I don't see this happening.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Saying that you believed Jay lost money during summer is almost a water is wet comment. Very few ski areas so much as break even during the summer. The three ski areas I worked at and had access to their financials did not turn a profit during summer. Snowshoe had massive weekend events, but was a ghost town midweek. The only reason they stayed open at all was to sell real estate. Another of those areas was Stowe, but pre-hotel days. The third was Wisp, which is located right on Deep Creek Lake, MD; a popular summer destination.



But things were supposed to be different at Jay thanks to the water park and ice arena.  At least one person from Jay took issue with me on this very forum about whether or not Jay ran in the black during the summer.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2016)

I can't speak to Jay, never worked there.  I can share this though. Spring semester of 1999 one of my senior classes in UVMs hospitality program was ski area management. One of the seminars had the GM from basically every ski area in the state. Stenger was there, Tim Meuller from Okemo, Hank Lunde from Stowe, Otten; a who's who in VT skiing.  The teacher of the class asked a question, "raise your hand if your ski area was profitable every year of this decade." The only one who could do it was Smuggs.   Every other area had at least one or more years they lost money for a year.  The point was to demonstrate that it is very difficult to make money in basically a seasonal weather dependent business.  If you don't make enough hay Christmas through Presidents week to cover you for the year, you're basically screwed.  Now Smuggs had the most developed summer business at the time. You can see why many of these other areas have tried to copy their formula.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 23, 2016)

It is VERY difficult for ski resorts to make money whether winter, summer or combined.  Most people believe the fantasy of how awesome it would to own one.  Gues what, it sucks! The operating costs are astronomical in the winter and you are totally dependent on something you have no control over, the weather.  They open for the summer mainly for marketing, that is how they justify the loss, marketing expense.  Corporations and wealthy (smart) individuals own them for the favorable taxes for real estate depreciation and losses.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

A pretty good article:
http://vtskiandride.com/jay-peak-new-bosses/


----------



## 4aprice (Apr 23, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I can't speak to Jay, never worked there.  I can share this though. Spring semester of 1999 one of my senior classes in UVMs hospitality program was ski area management. One of the seminars had the GM from basically every ski area in the state. Stenger was there, Tim Meuller from Okemo, Hank Lunde from Stowe, Otten; a who's who in VT skiing.  The teacher of the class asked a question, "raise your hand if your ski area was profitable every year of this decade." The only one who could do it was Smuggs.   Every other area had at least one or more years they lost money for a year.  The point was to demonstrate that it is very difficult to make money in basically a seasonal weather dependent business.  If you don't make enough hay Christmas through Presidents week to cover you for the year, you're basically screwed.  Now Smuggs had the most developed summer business at the time. You can see why many of these other areas have tried to copy their formula.



Bit off topic but you ought to look at Camelback Pa's summer business with the Camelbeach Water Park, a real money maker.  Couple of similarities with Jay and Burke with a brand new hotel and the difficulties they went through to get it up and going but it is selling well from what I understand (may I add pretty nice too).  Big difference in the location.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## tumbler (Apr 23, 2016)

4aprice said:


> Bit off topic but you ought to look at Camelback Pa's summer business with the Camelbeach Water Park, a real money maker.  Couple of similarities with Jay and Burke with a brand new hotel and the difficulties they went through to get it up and going but it is selling well from what I understand (may I add pretty nice too).  *Big difference in the location. *
> 
> Alex
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Hit the nail on the head.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> They booted Mike Pappalardo right away at the takeover, supposedly due to "conflict of interest"... just surprising Jr was kept.



Apparently Electric Mike is still at Burke. He seems to be trying to rally the troops and distance himself from Ary.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 23, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Oh I imagine that Ary is there to show them where things are...and that he will probably be gone soon.  However, he never did know where things were.  When the Sherburne Lodge had a fire sprinkler break in January he had no idea where the water main valve was.



Is anyone aware of the sprinkler break in the new hotel? I heard the fire department had to break the new doors open with the jaws of life because Ary was unavailable to unlock the doors.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

yotefan said:


> Apparently Electric Mike is still at Burke. He seems to be trying to rally the troops and distance himself from Ary.



That's funny because at the last pass holder meeting he couldn't gush enough about what an honorable family the Quiros' are.


----------



## 56fish (Apr 23, 2016)

4aprice said:


> Bit off topic but you ought to look at Camelback Pa's summer business with the Camelbeach Water Park, a real money maker.  Couple of similarities with Jay and Burke with a brand new hotel and the difficulties they went through to get it up and going but it is selling well from what I understand (may I add pretty nice too).  Big difference in the location.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Location, location, location.....as well as smarts at the top. 7 Springs in w PA makes some serious non-skiing cash.  As to dhs class back in '99....Jay looked a lot like pre-hotel Burke at the time.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's funny because at the last pass holder meeting he couldn't gush enough about what an honorable family the Quiros' are.



And yet, didn't Mike's Electric just file a lien this last week?


----------



## yotefan (Apr 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> And yet, didn't Mike's Electric just file a lien this last week?[/QUOTEJe
> Jerry Davis is suspect as well.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> And yet, didn't Mike's Electric just file a lien this last week?



Maybe that's why he needs the job.


.


----------



## yotefan (Apr 23, 2016)

Is anyone else concerned about internet security as far as their IT staff goes? I'm not sure I'd book a room or buy a pass with my credit card with the current system.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Maybe that's why he needs the job.



Gee, by the looks of the Mike's Electric website, it's a successful business operating in multiple states. :roll:

Doesn't look like he needs a job at Burke with everything else he has going on... Must be another reason why he was there... 

https://www.facebook.com/MikesElectricInc/?fref=ts


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Apr 23, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Saying that you believed Jay lost money during summer is almost a water is wet comment. Very few ski areas so much as break even during the summer. The three ski areas I worked at and had access to their financials did not turn a profit during summer. Snowshoe had massive weekend events, but was a ghost town midweek. The only reason they stayed open at all was to sell real estate. Another of those areas was Stowe, but pre-hotel days. The third was Wisp, which is located right on Deep Creek Lake, MD; a popular summer destination.



Back in 99' with your class, I would agree with you very much so for 90% of resorts.
However times have changed massively with the costs of energy, insurence, payroll. ... Resorts needed to come up with ways to make $ year roumd or face going out of buissnes. 
Like you I can not speak for Jay, but I had 6 yrs of a management position at a resort (Jiminy Peak) and still talk to the owner of the resort several times every winter. 
While the winters will bring far more $ through the register, the amount of costs that exist in the winter are so much greater than summer activities. For reference Jiminy does DH Mtn biking, alpine slides, arial coarses and many other rides. They also do a lot of weddings and conferences. Weekends are very busy, but with camps and other groups, the weekdays are still quite busy.
Overall there is more PROFIT in the summer than winter.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> *Bottom line: BenedictGomez is being proven right in every way.*



I haven't arrived at perfection yet though.  

I still need a Federal Indictment, but then I'll be like....









deadheadskier said:


> * Spring semester of 1999 one of my senior classes in UVMs hospitality program was ski area management. One of the seminars had the GM from basically every ski area in the state. Stenger was there, Tim Meuller from Okemo, Hank Lunde from Stowe, Otten; a who's who in VT skiing.*



Sounds like a day you wouldn't want to miss class.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 23, 2016)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Back in 99' with your class, I would agree with you very much so for 90% of resorts.
> However times have changed massively with the costs of energy, insurence, payroll. ... Resorts needed to come up with ways to make $ year roumd or face going out of buissnes.
> Like you I can not speak for Jay, but I had 6 yrs of a management position at a resort (Jiminy Peak) and still talk to the owner of the resort several times every winter.
> While the winters will bring far more $ through the register, the amount of costs that exist in the winter are so much greater than summer activities. For reference Jiminy does DH Mtn biking, alpine slides, arial coarses and many other rides. They also do a lot of weddings and conferences. Weekends are very busy, but with camps and other groups, the weekdays are still quite busy.
> Overall there is more PROFIT in the summer than winter.



I think you're right.  Over the last 5 years many resorts have become more 4 season.  I know sugarbush does good business in the summer.  They have events almost every weekend.  Marathons, triathlons, bike races.  Kids camps.   And foliage season is packed.


----------



## halfpintvt (Apr 24, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Gee, by the looks of the Mike's Electric website, it's a successful business operating in multiple states. :roll:
> 
> Doesn't look like he needs a job at Burke with everything else he has going on... Must be another reason why he was there...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/MikesElectricInc/?fref=ts



Mike's is a successful business but Jay Peak and Burke owe him over $900,000 in unpaid fees. He paid his workers but "Q" didn't pay him so he probably needs every dime he can raise.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 24, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Mike's is a successful business but Jay Peak and Burke owe him over $900,000 in unpaid fees.



But were they regular prices, or EB5 prices?


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 24, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> But were they regular prices, or EB5 prices?



One thing for sure is that now they are going to be the receiver's and bankruptcy judge's prices. This does bring up the good point that anyone who is seen to be in cahoots with Quiros and Stenger as to ripping off the EB5 investors is very unlikely to collect on amounts purportedly owed.


----------



## freeski (Apr 24, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> This does bring up the good point that anyone who is seen to be in cahoots with Quiros and Stenger as to ripping off the EB5 investors is very unlikely to collect on amounts purportedly owed.


Hmmm... That is an excellent point.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 24, 2016)

VTDigger has a couple of good articles that were posted today.  The one recapping Quiros' testimony to the SEC will save you a lot of reading.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 24, 2016)

Part 1 http://vtdigger.org/fullimagestory/jay-peaks-path-fraud/


Part 2 http://vtdigger.org/fullimagestory/eb-5-part-2/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 24, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Part 1 http://vtdigger.org/fullimagestory/jay-peaks-path-fraud/
> 
> 
> Part 2 http://vtdigger.org/fullimagestory/eb-5-part-2/



I liked the video featuring the governor saying how safe the program is because of the state's oversight.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 24, 2016)

More than oversight. Shumlin says the program is "audited" by the state.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2016)

Who says this to Federal investigators?



> *“It’s terrible what that son of a bitch did. I will —  when this SEC gets over with, I’m going to go over after that man, I  promise you. I will kill that man for what he did,” Quiros said.*


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 24, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Who says this to Federal investigators?



That was beyond me.   He could have been charged right there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Who says this to Federal investigators?



To whom was he referring? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## mbedle (Apr 24, 2016)

Hulme


----------



## River19 (Apr 24, 2016)

Again......Big Q doesn't strike me as someone I would trust running a McD's franchise let alone a 9 figure business.  He really comes off like a straight up bucket head.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2016)

According to VTDigger, the state is not going to renew the contract with Q Resorts for management of the airport in Newport.

It looks like Q Jr. Is as good at managing airports as he is ski areas:


> “It’s an understatement to say it’s been extremely difficult to get (Q Resorts) to be responsive,” Cole said. “It hasn’t been a great business relationship in terms of their responsiveness, but I don’t feel that we’ve tied up the state’s assets.”


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> According to VTDigger, the state is not going to renew the contract with Q Resorts for management of the airport in Newport.



Oh there's a shocker.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

Start at 2:42 and you will see what the State of Vermont is in deep $hit here....and will be no doubt sued:



Also listen at about 4:05 on where he talks about how the State of Vermont has "partnered" with him to release four new projects.  The first one?  AnCBio!


----------



## Tin (Apr 25, 2016)

Say what you want, they sold it damn well to people without a clue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

Tin said:


> Say what you want, they sold it damn well to people without a clue.



Agreed.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 25, 2016)

http://www.skitheeast.net/zanders-take-biased-for-bill-eb5000/

Good article I read today on Ski the East.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 25, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I haven't arrived at perfection yet though.
> I still need a Federal Indictment, but then I'll be like....



You may get it. My guess is that that would take a while, though.

The SEC does not have the authority to bring Federal Indictments. Its mandate is to bring civil enforcement of security laws. However, based on SEC actions, criminal charges may be brought against them via a federal grand jury. That can take a year or two. I think some of these charges bring 10 to 20 years depending on severity.

Interesting case.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

mbedle said:


> http://www.skitheeast.net/zanders-take-biased-for-bill-eb5000/
> 
> Good article I read today on Ski the East.



Someone posted that on the FOB page last week.  The article is naive at best.  Fraud is not an "assumed risk" in any investment.


----------



## DJAK (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Someone posted that on the FOB page last week.  The article is naive at best.  Fraud is not an "assumed risk" in any investment.



Not intended to be "reporting". Just a "hot take" to, yes, get clicks and offer a different angle in the blame game while most jump directly to conviction.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Someone posted that on the FOB page last week.  The article is naive at best.  Fraud is not an "assumed risk" in any investment.



I saw that article in my newsfeed on Facebook last week and read it. I thought it was pretty poor and didn't seem to have any true understanding of the level of fraud alleged in the case and why it is considered fraud.

Are some of the things that were ultimately accomplished good? Sure, that's a real possibility. But do the ends justify the means? I don't think so when it is done illegally.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

DJAK said:


> Not intended to be "reporting". Just a "hot take" to, yes, get clicks and offer a different angle in the blame game while most jump directly to conviction.



Right, it was an op-ed piece.  Still missed the mark.  Sorry.  I prefer that STE make movies instead of try to be Unofficial Networks.


----------



## DJAK (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Right, it was an op-ed piece.  Still missed the mark.  Sorry.  I prefer that STE make movies instead of try to be Unofficial Networks.


Agreed. Zander goes oddball about once a year, not 4 times daily. Not something regular. 

http://www.skitheeast.net/zanders-take-saddleback-sound-off/

http://www.skitheeast.net/snow-reporters-survival-guide/


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Someone posted that on the FOB page last week.  The article is naive at best.  Fraud is not an "assumed risk" in any investment.


Ignorance is a more accurate description. And he's proud of his ignorance. 

To profess "co-mingling of funds" is a non-issue is failing business 101. You ONLY set up multiple entities to SEPARATE the funds, not to use these entities to co-mingle funds for the purpose of creating the illusion of profitability when none existed.

And the NEK "benefited" part? You can always "create jobs" by build a bunch of building in the middle of nowhere. The fact no one will EVER occupy them is lost on the author, who is more ski bum rather than business analyst. 

I recalled one of the comments on "60 Minutes" when the story first aired last year: "So it's ok that you go rob a bank and use the money to build a hospital?". The fact the "bank" being robbed are owned by a bunch of foreigners makes it even more OK! 

The sad news is, now that so many of the most vocal of the "locals" are supporting the crooks, to the point of saying "screw these foreigner visa buyers". If ever there's a genuine project that needs to raise funds, no one will ever come because investors outside the NEK believe they will never see their money again. 

With that kind of attitude from the locals, what do you think the potential buyer(s) of Jay will be thinking? Let's hope the local "monies" can buy Jay and run it. Then they can screw themselves.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 25, 2016)

mbedle said:


> http://www.skitheeast.net/zanders-take-biased-for-bill-eb5000/
> 
> *Good article I read today on Ski the East.*



If by "good" what you really mean is, _"so ignorant that it hurts, and the reader feels genuinely embarrassed for the writer"_ - then yes, it's quite good.

That piece makes the dopes at Caledonian Record look like Pulitzer Prize material by comparison.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 25, 2016)

abc said:


> The sad news is, now that so many of the most vocal of the "locals" are supporting the crooks, to the point of saying "screw these foreigner visa buyers". If ever there's a genuine project that needs to raise funds, no one will ever come because investors outside the NEK believe they will never see their money again.
> 
> With that kind of attitude from the locals, what do you think the potential buyer(s) of Jay will be thinking? Let's hope the local "monies" can buy Jay and run it. Then they can screw themselves.



Who are these "locals" of which you speak? The editor(s) at the Cal-Rec and this one dude on a ski oriented website that isn't really local to this part of VT?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

abc said:


> The sad news is, now that so many of the most vocal of the "locals" are supporting the crooks, to the point of saying "screw these foreigner visa buyers". If ever there's a genuine project that needs to raise funds, no one will ever come because investors outside the NEK believe they will never see their money again.
> 
> With that kind of attitude from the locals, what do you think the potential buyer(s) of Jay will be thinking? Let's hope the local "monies" can buy Jay and run it. Then they can screw themselves.



I think that view is held by a relatively small number of folks.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Start at 2:42 and you will see what the State of Vermont is in deep $hit here....and will be no doubt sued:
> 
> 
> 
> Also listen at about 4:05 on where he talks about how the State of Vermont has "partnered" with him to release four new projects.  The first one?  AnCBio!



The video was like the one for Jurassic Park or for the Dharma Initiative.


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that view is held by a relatively small number of folks.


I hope that's a fair assessment. But often times, it's not the majority view, but the view of the most VOCAL that got heard. 

So, if any of the local "power" are embarrassed by these clowns, they better not just hang their head in shame and hope it blows over. They need to speak out against these minority view that those crooks "benefited" the region!  

More over, for a lot of the local who are not in business, I'm not sure they can tell the difference. After all, these guys conned the money from far away investors to 'create jobs' for the local for a few months.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 25, 2016)

uh oh.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/04/breaking-news-jay-peak-may-have-to-shut-down-operations


----------



## gladerider (Apr 25, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> uh oh.
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/04/breaking-news-jay-peak-may-have-to-shut-down-operations




i'd be shocked if they actually shut down operation. i wonder how much of this is due to debt servicing. sounds like lowering of valuation, which would be favorable for the next buyer.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 25, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> uh oh.
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/04/breaking-news-jay-peak-may-have-to-shut-down-operations



Total sensationalism.

That headline is making the rounds just as the Editor at the BFP hoped it would :angry:.

Here is the quote that the article was written around:



> In a declaration filed with the court on Friday, Goldberg said the resorts have very little cash on hand, "and numerous upcoming expenses that will quickly use up available cash and, if additional money is not obtained, force the Receiver to shut down operations at Jay Peak and eliminate any possibility of Q Burke opening."



That is from the attorney's request to release funds from Quiros' holding to keep the resorts open and operational until money actually starts coming in under the Receiver's management.

He was pointing out that if the funds were not released, the resorts would have to shut down.

The funds were released.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

gladerider said:


> i'd be shocked if they actually shut down operation. i wonder how much of this is due to debt servicing. sounds like lowering of valuation, which would be favorable for the next buyer.



That is based on a lame BFP article today that only selectively quoted an affidavit from the Receiver to the Court asking for permission to get a $750k loan to cover expenses for both.  The BFP missed the context of the affidavit and the (little) fact that the request was approved.  But the truth apparently does not sell papers.  Hence why the BFP's reputation and readership numbers are lower than ever before.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That is based on a lame BFP article today that only selectively quoted an affidavit from the Receiver to the Court asking for permission to get a $750k loan to cover expenses for both.  The BFP missed the context of the affidavit and the (little) fact that the request was approved.  But the truth apparently does not sell papers.  Hence why the BFP's reputation and readership numbers are lower than ever before.




i see. yeah. media lost integrity long time ago, unfortunately.


----------



## tnt1234 (Apr 25, 2016)

Whew.....


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2016)

gladerider said:


> i'd be shocked if they actually shut down operation. i wonder how much of this is due to debt servicing. sounds like lowering of valuation, which would be favorable for the next buyer.




there isnt debt servicing for the projects that were built since the eb5 money is equity ownership.  that's probably why they were able to operate for all this time because they didnt have to pay off any loans.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That is based on a lame BFP article today that only selectively quoted an affidavit from the Receiver to the Court asking for permission to get a $750k loan to cover expenses for both.  The BFP missed the context of the affidavit and the (little) fact that the request was approved.  But the truth apparently does not sell papers.  Hence why the BFP's reputation and readership numbers are lower than ever before.



perhaps, but would you be surprised if burke doesnt open again?  I can't see how they make the economics work there.  Jay will get reorganized with the eb5 investors taking a significant haircut but I cant see anyone taking on burke.


----------



## gladerider (Apr 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> there isnt debt servicing for the projects that were built since the eb5 money is equity ownership.  that's probably why they were able to operate for all this time because they didnt have to pay off any loans.



i get that there is no debt servicing on the EB-5 yet. 

i am not familiar with the details but, are you saying that, jay peak:
- has no debt?
- operates at a net negative cash flow basis even without debt?
that's hard to believe.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 25, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Total sensationalism.
> 
> That headline is making the rounds just as the Editor at the BFP hoped it would :angry:.
> 
> ...



I don't think that is correct. The loan up to 750K was obtained for the preservation of Q Burke Hotel & Conference center,  not Jay Peak's operations.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> perhaps, but would you be surprised if burke doesnt open again?  I can't see how they make the economics work there.  Jay will get reorganized with the eb5 investors taking a significant haircut but I cant see anyone taking on burke.



It has two HSQ's and a new Hotel.  Pretty much turn key.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 25, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It has two HSQ's and a new Hotel.  Pretty much turn key.



And a kick ass snowmaking system....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

tumbler said:


> And a kick ass snowmaking system....



:lol:  Not really.  With some more air compressor capacity, adequate....for now.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2016)

gladerider said:


> i get that there is no debt servicing on the EB-5 yet.
> 
> i am not familiar with the details but, are you saying that, jay peak:
> - has no debt?
> ...



I dont know what other debt Jay may or may not have to service or what its cash flow picture is.  But it appears they were dipping into the eb5 money for operating funds.


----------



## Abubob (Apr 25, 2016)

Burke (sans Q) the next Ascutney/Mittersill???


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2016)

The article refers to a declaration filed with the court on Friday.  The motion and exhibits for the takeover of the hotel were filed before Friday.  Something doesn't add up here.  Has there been a subsequent filing?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont know what other debt Jay may or may not have to service or what its cash flow picture is.  But it appears they were dipping into the eb5 money for operating funds.



Yep.  It is alleged that EB5 money was used for anything and everything that Q wished.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The article refers to a declaration filed with the court on Friday.  The motion and exhibits for the takeover of the hotel were filed before Friday.  Something doesn't add up here.  Has there been a subsequent filing?



You are correct - the declaration occurred on the 19th and was granted on Friday. I am not sure where this Goldberg quote actually comes from.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Apr 25, 2016)

The receiver is not going to operate at a loss.  Paying the lawyers is expensive.   Did enough cash get release to avoid any large cuts on operating expenses to ensure profitability?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> The receiver is not going to operate at a loss.  Paying the lawyers is expensive.   Did enough cash get release to avoid any large cuts on operating expenses to ensure profitability?



Only enough to operate Q Burke until mid-July.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 25, 2016)

Maybe the Magic buyers should turn their attention further up North.  I would rather own Burke with established infrastructure in a colder, snowier location.  It has the type of vibe they are looking for.


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 25, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Maybe the Magic buyers should turn their attention further up North.  I would rather own Burke with established infrastructure in a colder, snowier location.  It has the type of vibe they are looking for.



Couldn't afford to buy or run it even if they wanted to.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2016)

Well worth a read:
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...-could-close-q-burke-may-never-open/83501858/


The article has been substantially rewritten.  There are lots of interesting nuggets.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Maybe the Magic buyers should turn their attention further up North.  I would rather own Burke with established infrastructure in a colder, snowier location.  It has the type of vibe they are looking for.



Location location location


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Well worth a read:
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...-could-close-q-burke-may-never-open/83501858/
> 
> 
> The article has been substantially rewritten.  There are lots of interesting nuggets.



very interesting.  I wonder how much cash is available.  The reciever was asking for court approval to release some funds but who knows how much is there in total.  
And how much has been paid by jay to q for management fees or whatever they called them, that can be clawed back.
its a mess.  Gonna take some time to sort things out and I'd imagine if there are interested buyers, they won't be funding anything until they can secure clear ownership.  But maybe they can arrange some financing like In a bankruptcy proceeding.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 25, 2016)

Wow, my doomsday predictions are coming true faster than I thought.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 25, 2016)

It's like watching the 2008 financial meltdown in miniature. 

Give odds on whether or not they reopen this weekend for skiing.  They have absolutely no credit with their vendors right now. They all want cash up front for services. 

If they don't pay for the tram repair down payment soon they won't get the repairs done this summer.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2016)

Steve Wright said on Facebook that they are trying to get a line of credit to keep Jay Peak afloat.  He anticipates getting one opened this week. Let's hope that he didn't inherit Stenger's false optimism.


----------



## Zermatt (Apr 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Steve Wright said on Facebook that they are trying to get a line of credit to keep Jay Peak afloat.  He anticipates getting one opened this week. Let's hope that he didn't inherit Stenger's false optimism.



Seriously, what else would they say? We are doomed! Of course not. 

Bear Stearns failed immediately following their failed attempt to secure credit. 

Who would give Jay a line of credit? Their assets are so tainted with stolen money no bank is going to touch it until they are free and clear. The people managing the resort have no clue. They even have the nerve to tell me they aren't going bankrupt, when bankruptcy is the only thing that will save them.


----------



## manhattanskier (Apr 25, 2016)

The saddest question is, what if the program was actually clean. Would it have brought good jobs to hundreds of people? We will never know, this makes me sick, especially that video recruiting Eb-5 investors. Fraud is not an assumed risk.


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2016)

The general impression of the EB-5 program is such that it has very little chance of succeeding...

Just about everything I read and everyone I spoke to, thought of this group of investors as people who got money to burn. Worse, some thought of them as dummies who's got more money than sense. All too often, crooks who's looking for their next victim descend on them as pool of "free money". No one bother to propose serious project that has much chance of success. Only the shakiest of projects were pitch to them! By and large, the majority of the EB-5 projects are over-leveraged, high risk projects that has very slim chance of turning profit.

Of course, part of the problem is our current economic environment. Interest rate is so low, money loses their buying power sitting in a bank. So there're far too much money chasing few worthy projects. Who wants to bother with all the red tape to deal with the EB-5 investors? Only projects smart investor won't touch with a 9-foot pole!


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 25, 2016)

How much of Jay Peak's operational profit was going into the Q bank accounts as a "management salary"? This would account for Quiros' large numbers in comparison to what Goldberg was seeing on the book. The books show less than $2 million yearly profits at Jay vs Quiros numbers that are triple/quadruple that. Well, if Quiros was taking 5-10 million out of the pot annually to help pay for his $80,000/month living expenses (what!), it all just looks like profit to him.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 26, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/26/goldberg-jay-peak-financials-dire/


----------



## mbedle (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> How much of Jay Peak's operational profit was going into the Q bank accounts as a "management salary"? This would account for Quiros' large numbers in comparison to what Goldberg was seeing on the book. The books show less than $2 million yearly profits at Jay vs Quiros numbers that are triple/quadruple that. Well, if Quiros was taking 5-10 million out of the pot annually to help pay for his $80,000/month living expenses (what!), it all just looks like profit to him.



The books would reflect the owner's take of the profits. Scary part about this is what are they going to do in November when they need to start making snow and opening for the season. If new owners are not in-place that could mean a potential closure of both areas.


----------



## River19 (Apr 26, 2016)

I thought one of the interesting nuggets of the BFP article was the "two large hotel chains" supposedly interested in Hotel Burke (I removed the Q and will start new naming rumors).

That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but that begs the question of how that would work with a separate owner of the mountain + BMA etc.  I don't see how a hotel corporation would let a separate outside entity have such an influence on the success of their business like a separate owner of the ski area would.

One thing that I still can't understand is the expectation that investors would ever be "repaid" their capital.  So they raise say $100M to build a hotel and resort improvement, they planned all along to use damn near every cent of that $100M in capital for the build.  There was no other capital to fund the build.  Was the expectation that the newly created businesses would throw enough cash to repay principal invested in the project?  I must be missing something, what am I missing?


----------



## mbedle (Apr 26, 2016)

I was thinking the same thing - if they sell the hotel at Burke to an outside entity, where does that leave the ski resort. They will still need to find a buyer for the ski resort, which I would think would be difficult with out the potential income from the hotel operations. I also find it odd that a large hotel chain would be interested in purchasing a hotel at a resort that has operated so poorly for so many years. I wonder how well the Holiday Inn at Ascutney does with out the ski area operating (up until recently).


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

VTDigger has an article about the court hearing yesterday on Quiros' attempt to unfreeze assets.  

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/26/defense-attorney-quiros-is-no-bernie-madoff/



One interesting bit:


> SEC lawyers in testimony on Monday said at least $172 million is unaccounted for. The federal regulator and Pieciak, representing the state of Vermont, cited the following examples of monies that have gone missing: The Jay Peak developers failed to make $20 million in essential infrastructure improvements; failed to complete $90 million worth of projects promised to investors; and shortchanged vendors at least $3.5 million.
> 
> Quiros and Stenger should have made $66 million in contributions to the projects, per agreements with investors, but instead the developers had a net negative cash flow of $15 million, the SEC alleges.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

River19 said:


> I thought one of the interesting nuggets of the BFP article was the "two large hotel chains" supposedly interested in Hotel Burke (I removed the Q and will start new naming rumors).



This surprises me. Most chains aren't interested in seasonal ski properties in New England.  N. Conway is really the only "ski town" that has them. N Conway has such a well established summer and fall season and can make up for low occupancy periods with very high in season rates.  Burke doesn't have that. Maybe the chains are looking at buying the hotel on the cheap and selling fractional vacation club sales to get their profit out of the place that way over the traditional hotel room rental model.

 The Fairfield Marriott just opened in Waterbury, but I think part of the thinking there is proximity to 89 and capturing highway travelers and business visitors to Montpellier and Burlington.  I don't think the "Marriott Burke Resort" works in that location. If it did,  we'd likely have seen the "Marriott Killington" long ago.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> This surprises me. Most chains aren't interested in seasonal ski properties in New England.  N. Conway is really the only "ski town" that has them. N Conway has such a well established summer and fall season and can make up for low occupancy periods with very high in season rates.  Burke doesn't have that. Maybe the chains are looking at buying the hotel on the cheap and selling fractional vacation club sales to get their profit out of the place that way over the traditional hotel room rental model.
> 
> The Fairfield Marriott just opened in Waterbury, but I think part of the thinking there is proximity to 89 and capturing highway travelers and business visitors to Montpellier and Burlington.  I don't think the "Marriott Burke Resort" works in that location. If it did,  we'd likely have seen the "Marriott Killington" long ago.



Omni is killing it at Bretton Woods. They run it as a destination resort. I could see them be willing to try their luck at a second property, especially one so close to BW.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think the "Marriott Burke Resort" works in that location. If it did,  we'd likely have seen the "Marriott Killington" long ago.



The difference between Killington and Burke is that Burke has very little competition with other hotels/single night accommodations, especially from chains. The closest major chain is the Comfort Inn in St Johnsbury 25 minutes away.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> This surprises me. Most chains aren't interested in seasonal ski properties in New England.  N. Conway is really the only "ski town" that has them. N Conway has such a well established summer and fall season and can make up for low occupancy periods with very high in season rates.  Burke doesn't have that. Maybe the chains are looking at buying the hotel on the cheap and selling fractional vacation club sales to get their profit out of the place that way over the traditional hotel room rental model.
> 
> The Fairfield Marriott just opened in Waterbury, but I think part of the thinking there is proximity to 89 and capturing highway travelers and business visitors to Montpellier and Burlington.  I don't think the "Marriott Burke Resort" works in that location. If it did,  we'd likely have seen the "Marriott Killington" long ago.



Id bet by "interested", he was referring to interested in managing the property, for a fee, not interested in buying the real estate.  The big hotel chains have for the most part become management companies where the underlying asset is owned by other entities.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> Id bet by "interested", he was referring to interested in managing the property, for a fee, not interested in buying the real estate.  The big hotel chains have for the most part become management companies where the underlying asset is owned by other entities.



I refer again to Bretton Woods. This used to be the case but they bought the property outright this year.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 26, 2016)

mbedle said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/26/goldberg-jay-peak-financials-dire/



So it appears they need to secure 5-10m in funds to get through the summer.  Lucky for them, I just cleaned out the change cup in my car...


----------



## mbedle (Apr 26, 2016)

Doesn't the VTDigger article say the exact same thing that BFP stated in their article yesterday?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Omni is killing it at Bretton Woods. They run it as a destination resort. I could see them be willing to try their luck at a second property, especially one so close to BW.


I was wondering if Omni was interested, but I don't think that they would be.  I just don't see the Burke hotel as being upscale enough to satisfy Omni.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Omni is killing it at Bretton Woods. They run it as a destination resort. I could see them be willing to try their luck at a second property, especially one so close to BW.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



I had forgotten Omni ran the MWH.

I would think the Burke property would be a little short on 4 season amenities compared the MWH.  This includes both what's at that property in Golf, Spa, Restaurants and nearby throughout the Valley.

But, being able to centralize fixed management costs might make sense. Could utilize the GM, Group Sales and other executive team already in place at the Mount Washington and just expand their duties regionally.

A Bretton Woods / Burke pass would be a pretty compelling product for Boston area families looking to avoid the Loon or Southern VT Zoo.


----------



## HowieT2 (Apr 26, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Doesn't the VTDigger article say the exact same thing that BFP stated in their article yesterday?



yes but added the details about the available cash and operating cash requirements for the next 6 months.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 26, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Doesn't the VTDigger article say the exact same thing that BFP stated in their article yesterday?



You can tell they are repeating all the same info when they refer to the Tram as a Gondola system.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I had forgotten Omni ran the MWH.
> 
> I would think the Burke property would be a little short on 4 season amenities compared the MWH.  This includes both what's at that property in Golf, Spa, Restaurants and nearby throughout the Valley.
> 
> ...



Yes, I bet they've learned a lot about how to run ski area and adjoining resort and hotels. And it's only an hour drive from Bretton Woods to Burke. Most of their staff lives in the Littleton area, which is only about 40 minutes from Burke. They could probably scale our more than just shared executive management. If you need skilled mechanics and maintenance staff, just sent them up to Burke for a day or two. Otherwise you keep them busy in Bretton Woods. Sales, reservation, and marketing are centralized at Omni corporate.


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2016)

I think it's apple and oranges. 

MWH is NOT a hotel attach to a ski resort. It's a destination hotel of its own rights, with golf course, spa, and a ski resort that happens to be across the road! MWH gets way more visitors in the summer than in the winter. Just take a look at their summer room rate vs winter rate.

OMNI COULD run Burke hotel. But that doesn't mean they would be interested to.


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2016)

That said, the Comfort Inn in St Johnsbury seems to be doing really well. So there's got to be some good reason for people to visit the area. If the new Burke owner can figure out how to tap into that visitor stream, they'd have a fighting chance of making it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> I think it's apple and oranges.
> 
> MWH is NOT a hotel attach to a ski resort. It's a destination hotel of its own rights, with golf course, spa, and a ski resort that happens to be across the road! MWH gets way more visitors in the summer than in the winter. Just take a look at their summer room rate vs winter rate.
> 
> OMNI COULD run Burke hotel. But that doesn't mean they would be interested to.


I couldn't agree more.  I just don't see the Burke hotel fitting into Omni's portfolio.  Omni is more upscale.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I couldn't agree more.  I just don't see the Burke hotel fitting into Omni's portfolio.  Omni is more upscale.



Not all of them. I've stayed at both the Omni Charlottesville and their property in Richmond, VA.  Both were not any more upscale than your typical Hilton.  Generally speaking their portfolio is higher end, but not exclusively so.  

The only reason they make some sense is having an area presence already.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Not all of them. I've stayed at both the Omni Charlottesville and their property in Richmond, VA.  Both were not any more upscale than your typical Hilton.  Generally speaking their portfolio is higher end, but not exclusively so.
> 
> The only reason they make some sense is having an area presence already.



That is true to a certain degree for some urban locations, but if you look at their list of resorts, they are light years ahead of Burke as far as amenities are concerned.
https://www.omnihotels.com/destinations/resorts

I like the theory of a company looking to manage privately owned units.  That is definitely the model lately.  For no good reason Wyndham comes to mind as a real possibility.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm well aware of their portfolio, thanks.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm well aware of their portfolio, thanks.



Then you should have known that Burke doesn't even come close to fitting the amenities offered within their resort portfolio.  Comparing an Omni in downtown Richmond Virginia to a resort property is just silly.  Although even the Omin Richmond looks nicer than the Burke hotel.  Assuming the Burke hotel is based on the Tramhaus lodge, the best I can description of the experience I could give is "upscale Ikea".  The Tramhaus Lodge is no better than a modern Comfort Inn or Holiday Inn Express - except for its location at the base of a ski area.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

Wow


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

Re:  Omni

In some ways it makes sense because they are running BW just down the road.  Pick up Burke for a cheap price with a new Hotel, send some of the BW crowd there, and it might work.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

http://www.wcax.com/story/31811722/can-jay-peak-q-burke-weather-fraud-scandal

Notice that Steve is the manager of "Jay and Burke"


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Re:  Omni
> 
> In some ways it makes sense because they are running BW just down the road.  Pick up Burke for a cheap price with a new Hotel, send some of the BW crowd there, and it might work.


But it's not about how cheaply you can run it. It's about filling its rooms. What attracts people to Burke in the summer?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Wow



Was something I said incorrect?  Surely you don't believe that the Burke hotel is even close to as nice as any other Omni Resort property.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> But it's not about how cheaply you can run it. It's about filling its rooms. What attracts people to Burke in the summer?



Mountain bikers - which is not the clientele that Omni is after.

Omni wants well to do urban dwellers to come to their resorts and spend lots of money on spa treatments, horseback riding, etc.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> But it's not about how cheaply you can run it. It's about filling its rooms. What attracts people to Burke in the summer?



Yes.  This is a good point and one that my friends and I have discussed.  An upscale motel will NOT target bikers.  Q blew that one.  BUT it will do a good conference and wedding business.

Bikers, at least the ones we see at KT, spend $5,000 on a bike but then will sleep in their cars or pay $15 for a campsite and sleep in a tent.


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## sull1102 (Apr 26, 2016)

I've been to a few Omni properties far outside the Northeast and it's always nice to see MWH and Bretton Woods photos on the slideshows in the lobby. MWH is that type of property they want to show off, Burke is a far cry from that.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> I've been to a few Omni properties far outside the Northeast and it's always nice to see MWH and Bretton Woods photos on the slideshows in the lobby. MWH is that type of property they want to show off, Burke is a far cry from that.



That is true to some extent.  Burke is not there....yet.  And it may not be the right product.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

sull1102 said:


> I've been to a few Omni properties far outside the Northeast and it's always nice to see MWH and Bretton Woods photos on the slideshows in the lobby. MWH is that type of property they want to show off, Burke is a far cry from that.



+1


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## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Was something I said incorrect?  Surely you don't believe that the Burke hotel is even close to as nice as any other Omni Resort property.



A. I never said you were incorrect

B. I never said that the Burke Hotel was as nice as other Omni Resort properties.

C. The "wow" was for your desire to continue to argue with someone who really wasn't trying to argue with you.  I said generally Omni is upscale, but not always. They do diversify some. Maybe they would at Burke if the price is right. Maybe not. That's all I was saying.  Simply speculating; not trying to say I'm right and your wrong or vice versa.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes.  This is a good point and one that my friends and I have discussed.  An upscale motel will NOT target bikers.  Q blew that one.  BUT it will do a good conference and wedding business.
> 
> Bikers, at least the ones we see at KT, spend $5,000 on a bike but then will sleep in their cars or pay $15 for a campsite and sleep in a tent.



There is definitely demand for wedding space, but I'm not so sure how well the conference business will do.  You've got a lot of competition considering how rural an area it is.  Just look at Stowe, Omni Mt. Washington, Jay Peak, Killington, Lake Morey, etc.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is definitely demand for wedding space, but I'm not so sure how well the conference business will do.  You've got a lot of competition considering how rural an area it is.  Just look at Stowe, Omni Mt. Washington, Jay Peak, Killington, Lake Morey, etc.



You do know how many people come to Vermont for destination weddings, yes?  It is a HUGE business.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> C. The "wow" was for your desire to continue to argue with someone who really wasn't trying to argue with you.  I said generally Omni is upscale, but not always. They do diversify some. Maybe they would at Burke if the price is right. Maybe not. That's all I was saying.  Simply speculating; not trying to say I'm right and your wrong or vice versa.


My apologies, then.  It certainly came across that way - especially when you gave a terse response of, "I'm familiar with Omni's portfolio, thanks."  It was so terse that I could only speculate as to your intent.  Apparently my speculation was incorrect.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> You do know how many people come to Vermont for destination weddings, yes?  It is a HUGE business.



That's why I said this:


> There is definitely demand for wedding space



It was the conference space demand that I was questioning.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Was something I said incorrect?  Surely you don't believe that the Burke hotel is even close to as nice as any other Omni Resort property.



Have you actually been inside since they finished it? It is VERY nice inside and I think it looks pretty good from the outside too. Certainly better looking than this place...
https://www.omnihotels.com/hotels/denver-interlocken/property-details/gallery


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Have you actually been inside since they finished it? It is VERY nice inside and I think it looks pretty good from the outside too. Certainly better looking than this place...
> https://www.omnihotels.com/hotels/denver-interlocken/property-details/gallery



I have not.  I've been basing my assumptions on their representation that it is a copy of the Tramhaus Lodge.  I have stayed in the Tramhaus.  Is it nicer?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 26, 2016)

Ski The East
3 mins ·

"The mountain will revert to its former name." - Goldberg, the attorney in charge of Burke in today's Globe. No more Q.

That means the silly letter existed about 3 1/2 years. If anyone was betting on how long it would last.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> when you gave a terse response of, "I'm familiar with Omni's portfolio, thanks."  It was so terse that I could only speculate as to your intent.



The short response was made specifically because you were pushing an argument I wasn't interested in / had not invited. You're guilty of this frequently.

Glad we're clear! 

Carry on


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> "The mountain will revert to its former name." - Goldberg, the attorney in charge of Burke in today's Globe. No more Q.


There is a God.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I have not.  I've been basing my assumptions on their representation that it is a copy of the Tramhaus Lodge.  I have stayed in the Tramhaus.  Is it nicer?



Yes. The interior of the Tram House is rather boring as you walking around the hallways. IMO, the interior of the Mid-Burke hotel was done much better than the Tram House. The central "Day Lodge" area is impressive with large glass walls looking out at the view of the mountain on one side and Willoughby Gap on the other. The restaurant and bar are nicely done as well. I didn't see into the conference room(s) but those don't look like anything particularly special. But then conference rooms are typically designed around functionality vs high class atmosphere.

Many of the Omni properties are older style buildings that they have renovated but kept a classic high class 1920's style to them. Granted, the Mid-Burke Hotel/Lodge is more modern in its style but I would say it is still pretty upscale.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> That's why I said this:
> 
> 
> It was the conference space demand that I was questioning.



Can you identify the conference spaces in the NEK?  LSC and JPR.  That is it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

Some things never change.  They just posted another one of their famous iPhone videos on their Facebook page.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> "The mountain will revert to its former name." - Goldberg, the attorney in charge of Burke in today's Globe. No more Q.
> 
> That means the silly letter existed about 3 1/2 years. If anyone was betting on how long it would last.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you identify the conference spaces in the NEK?  LSC and JPR.  That is it.



Which is PLENTY for the NEK.  But there is soon to be even more.  The Academy is constructing conference space on Main Street in St. Johnsbury.  The Lincoln Inn is also used from time to time, but that space has seen better days.

The bottom line is that the conference business can't survive on NEK business alone - which is why I mentioned the competition.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you identify the conference spaces in the NEK?  LSC and JPR.  That is it.



The Comfort Inn has a small conference space (up to 100 people).


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Which is PLENTY for the NEK.  But there is soon to be even more.  The Academy is constructing conference space on Main Street in St. Johnsbury.  The Lincoln Inn is also used from time to time, but that space has seen better days.
> 
> The bottom line is that the conference business can't survive on NEK business alone - which is why I mentioned the competition.



I am not talking about one conference room.  I am talking about a location with multiple places.  And yes, the NEK itself does not have a demand, but there is a demand from outside the area.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_nek said:


>



very good!!!!!!


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> There is definitely demand for wedding space, but I'm not so sure how well the conference business will do.  You've got a lot of competition considering how rural an area it is.  Just look at Stowe, Omni Mt. Washington, Jay Peak, Killington, Lake Morey, etc.


Even for wedding, the competition is still the same. In fact, maybe worse. 

Why does anyone do a wedding several hours away from home? Perhaps because the family had been skiing at that mountain a lot? Burke doesn't have the skier traffic of Stowe or even Jay. 

One thing I found missing from the discussion is, Stowe ran a very successful ski mountain for years before they pour the money into a high end hotel. Even Jay Peak, had been for years regarded as an awesome mountain by a fairly large number of skiers. So the hotel may be justified. 

Burke hotel is really the cart before the horse!

As a mountain biker myself, I find the NEK area lacking in clean motels, not upscale hotels.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

Get them while you can!

View attachment 20077


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am not talking about one conference room.  I am talking about a location with multiple places.  And yes, the NEK itself does not have a demand, but there is a demand from outside the area.



Then I think that we are saying the same thing.  Specifically, that the conference business at Q Burke will have to compete with Stowe, Mount Washington, Jay Peak, Lake Morey, etc.  That's just the reality.  Is the demand there for another space?  I sincerely hope so, but I don't think it's a simple as "build it and they will come."


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> Even for wedding, the competition is still the same. In fact, maybe worse.
> 
> Why does anyone do a wedding several hours away from home? Perhaps because the family had been skiing at that mountain a lot? Burke doesn't have the skier traffic of Stowe or even Jay.
> 
> ...



The cart-before-the-horse argument has been raised by a lot of folks.  There was a school of thought that they needed to improve the skiing a little bit more before the Hotel.  But EB-5 money makes one do different, or stupid, things.  Ary's arrogance was quite telling--he felt that the Hotel would solve all the problems.  Well, I still doubt that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> Even for wedding, the competition is still the same. In fact, maybe worse.
> 
> Why does anyone do a wedding several hours away from home?


The difference in my mind with the wedding business is that Caledonia County has shockingly little in the way of wedding venues.  I know several Caledonia County couples who have gone to Jay Peak for that reason.  There is local demand, for sure.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The cart-before-the-horse argument has been raised by a lot of folks.  There was a school of thought that they needed to improve the skiing a little bit more before the Hotel.  But EB-5 money makes one do different, or stupid, things.  Ary's arrogance was quite telling--he felt that the Hotel would solve all the problems.  Well, I still doubt that.



Agreed.  The hotel needed to be a piece of a larger puzzle.  The problem is that Ary took the puzzle box and dumped the pieces on the floor before shitting all over them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The difference in my mind with the wedding business is that Caledonia County has shockingly little in the way of wedding venues.  I know several Caledonia County couples who have gone to Jay Peak for that reason.  There is local demand, for sure.



Some of the weddings will be local, but as one who was a Vermonter and briefly considered getting married in Vermont, I can tell you that the Vermont Wedding Industry is NOT aimed for the blue collar locals.  Sure, they will do a few here and there, but the primary market is out-of-state.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Agreed.  The hotel needed to be a piece of a larger puzzle.  The problem is that Ary took the puzzle box and dumped the pieces on the floor before shitting all over them.



Um, OK.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Some of the weddings will be local, but as one who was a Vermonter and briefly considered getting married in Vermont, I can tell you that the Vermont Wedding Industry is NOT aimed for the blue collar locals.  Sure, they will do a few here and there, but the primary market is out-of-state.



Definitely true.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

I've been wondering how the Porsche Club of America's National Parade (gathering of Porsche drivers and their car from all over the country) was going to react to the situation at Jay. Needless to say, Porsche owners are fairly likely to be upper class and well connected. If this event would have been scrapped, it would have looked VERY bad for the NEK and Vermont in general.

http://2016parade.pca.org/

I'm glad it is still going off as planned.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I've been wondering how the Porsche Club of America's National Parade (gathering of Porsche drivers and their car from all over the country) was going to react to the situation at Jay. Needless to say, Porsche owners are fairly likely to be upper class and well connected. If this event would have been scrapped, it would have looked VERY bad for the NEK and Vermont in general.
> 
> http://2016parade.pca.org/
> 
> I'm glad it is still going off as planned.



It's great to see the new management team being proactive about these things.  Porsche owners are definitely a clientele that you don't want to turn away.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

All rooms at Jay are already sold out for the Porsche event. Too bad the Mid*-Burke Hotel wasn't open to potentially handle some of the overflow.

*Notice that I've started dropping the "Q" from the name of the hotel and replacing it with "Mid". I wonder what name the hotel will ultimately end up having. Right now it is pretty much a blank slate since the hotel never opened under the current name and therefore has no brand recognition (and whatever brand it does have is severely tainted). A new owner could come in and rename it whatever it wants.
"Omni Hotel at Burke Mountain"?


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## River19 (Apr 26, 2016)

The best news of the day and the past several pages today.......the Q is gone.....now I think there are at least 180 people that would love to personally take part in a sign demolition party......could be cathartic.

And here is a wild question......what if......just what if, Porsche owners were also mountain bikers?  Holy shit.....dogs and cats living together.....mass hysteria.....


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## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> One thing I found missing from the discussion is, Stowe ran a very successful ski mountain for years before they pour the money into a high end hotel.



Not necessarily.  I'll post one article that talks a little about how Stowe was losing market share in the 90s as other areas developed slopeside amenities.  

When i lived in town in the late 90s, Stowe wasn't doing well financially.  If Spruce hadn't been approved, there was talk of vastly decreasing services at Stowe.  Less snowmaking, shorter season, reduced ski school, no summer activities; overall a much more bare bones operation. AIG was there to prop the mountain up and they brought in Hanke Lunde to turn the place around. 

http://m.stowetoday.com/stowereport...c95-ef04-5a4b-9eb1-8491b4164998.html?mode=jqm


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

River19 said:


> And here is a wild question......what if......just what if, Porsche owners were also mountain bikers?  Holy shit.....dogs and cats living together.....mass hysteria.....



Unpossible! All MTB'rs are dirtbags! There is no way that many of them have good income jobs with families that might want to drive their Cayenne to a place with awesome MTB while still having a nice  room to stay for a night or two right next to the trails.


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## River19 (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Unpossible! All MTB'rs are dirtbags! There is no way that many of them have good income jobs with families that might want to drive their Cayenne to a place with awesome MTB while still having a nice  room to stay for a night or two right next to the trails.




You are right, what was I thinking......those unwashed heathens could not possibly have the means to both an expensive bike AND a Porsche......lol

As I sit here playing with numbers dreaming of my bikes.....


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 26, 2016)

abc said:


> As a mountain biker myself, I find the NEK area* lacking in clean motels, not upscale hotels*.



You could probably substitute "Budget Skier/Skier Families" with Mountain Biker too...


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## River19 (Apr 26, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You could probably substitute "Budget Skier/Skier Families" with Mountain Biker too...



This is a fair statement, the number of clean, a reasonably priced rooms in the NEK is pretty low.

Slightly more options for B&B places for a romantic getaway for a couple spending "getaway" type money, but a clean place to come back to after dinner and shower and sleep and then early out again is very low.....


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## dlague (Apr 26, 2016)

JAY PEAK WILL NOT CLOSE, AND OTHER UPDATES ABOUT THE ALLEGED VT PONZI SCHEME
Apr 25, 2016  By: Ryan Dunfee  Follow  
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2332 0 0 Views23,830 Comments2
 It's been a busy week for news in Vermont since the SEC alleged two ski resort owners with fraud on April 14th. Tim Kirchoff photo.

Last week, we reported on the outrageous news (at least by the standard of what we normally get to report on) that Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros, the business partners who owned Jay Peak Resort and Burke Mountain Resort, were charged with financial fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission. 

The feds allege that the pair had been perpetrating a Ponzi scheme with $400 million in funds raised from foreign investors through a federal program known as EB-5, which lets foreigners who invest at least $500,000 in job-creating projects in the U.S. obtain fast-tracked green cards for themselves and their families. Allegedly, over $200 million was used for purposes outside of the stated projects – including purchase of condo in New York City's Trump Tower – and that money from later investors was used to pay off earlier ones. 

The scandal has rocked the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, and has widened to include suspicions about mishandling of the project by Vermont state officials and many questions over the financial future of the rural area and its residents.

THE SHORT AND LONG OF THE PAST WEEK'S NEWS

While a Miami court takes on the fraud case, East Coast skiers and riders take, shirtless, to the trees of Jay Peak. Jay Peak Resort photo.

The short of the news that has followed since is that Jay Peak and Burke Mountain Resort will continue to operate as normal (despite a report you might have seen stating otherwise today), that Quiros and Stenger have defended their innocence, and that the Vermont political scene has gotten its greatest source of gossip in years. 

The long of the news of the past week, however, looks like this:

-JayPeakReceivership.com is set up by Jay Peak receiver/lawyer Michael Goldberg to catalog all the legal documents of the proceedings and operations of Jay Peak. 

-The Burlington Free Press reports that a former Jay Peak controller testified to the SEC that he raised concerns about the legality and operation of the EB-5 funds in 2010, and ultimately resigned when his concerns went unheeded.

-Ariel Quiros asks for his $50 million in assets to be unfrozen by the SEC, as they were last week. He wants to, ya know, pay his lawyer and rent and stuff. The fraud case, which he considers ridiculous, is playing out in a court in his hometown of Miami.

-Zander Basedepth, a nom de plume for an unnamed Ski The East correspondent, writes an entertaining commentary defending Bill Stenger's reputation and innocence. From his angle, Bill was simply unawares of the wrongdoing, and the state is owed a big chunk of the blame for mismanaging their own program.

-VT Digger sits down for an interview with Michael Goldberg, the attorney receiving Jay Peak Resort while the fraud case proceeds. He's the same attorney that represents the investors in the Berney Madoff scandal. He and his team will be paid a court-approved $375 an hour to keep the business running smoothly and eventually, to sell it off and pay back the EB-5 investors and other creditors. That's down from his normal rate of $675 an hour.

-New England Ski History reports that Bill Stenger plans to clear himself of any wrongdoing in the case, as does business partner Ariel Quiros. No surprise there. Stenger's sons remain employees at Jay Peak, and Ary Quiros, the controversial CEO of "Q" Burke Mountain Resort, remains employed there as well.

Between $7-11.5 million will be needed to keep Jay Peak and Q Burke Hotel open for the off-season and prepare for next winter, including repairs to Jay's signature tram. 

-Anne Galloway of VT Digger publishes a comprehensive investigate report about how the entire operation came crashing down. It's really stellar work, and absolutely worth your time to read if you are interested in this story.

One of the elements of the story that might surprise people is the degree to which it is claimed that state government officials blew the handling of the EB-5 program, and while acting as boosters for its potential neglected to audit the projects or demand the quarterly reports deals with contractors required but which were not delivered.

State officials, including current Governor Peter Shumlin, former Governor Jim Douglas, Senators Patrick Leahy and Bernie Sanders (yes, Bernie!), are accused of being too cozy with Stenger and his projects, having their influence and enthusiasm for the projects used as marketing collateral – including on international investor-seeking trips paid for by Jay Peak – and receiving many campaign donations from proceeds of the projects. It's its own story within this broader one, and has many Vermont politicians in a hurry to give back these proceeds to charity.

As a sidenote, Galloway reports that roughly 700 foreign investors from 74 different countries invested in the EB-5 project, and that the fallout from this may prevent numbers of them from achieving the immigration status in the U.S. they hoped for with their investments, and for other EB-5 projects – such as one at Mount Snow in southern Vermont – to be stalled.

-VT Ski and Ride reports that Marshall Olsen, CEO of the Kansas company charged with running Jay Peak until the fraud case is resolved, says that with all its projects built, great employees, and a good flow of customers, the mountain will no doubt be eagerly snapped up by a buyer once the case is over. Longtime Jay CMO Steve Wright has been appointed to General Manager, and Olsen anticipates they'll be running the show at Jay for anywhere from six months to three years.

-The Burlington Free Press publishes an article today claiming that cash flow issues will force Jay Peak and Q Burke Hotel (not the mountain, mind you) to close. But it seems the receivership of both properties – Q Burke Hotel was added to the receivership as well – was floated a $750,000 loan to keep the doors open for the next three months. Chill, people! Title is suggested to TGR that reads "Burke Mountain and Jay Peak Plan to Operate Normally In Opposition to Media Yelling 'Closed!' For Clicks."

BFP later adjusts its headline to "Court-appointed manager scrambles to save ski resorts," with the content of the article reflecting the new headline. 

Jay Peak today announced they'll stay open for a bonus weekend, and extend discounted season pass pricing through mid-July. Jay Peak Resort photo. 

-Jay Peak announces it'll stay open for a bonus weekend this coming April 30th and May 1st at $20 a pop, and extends spring season pass pricing for next winter, which was set to end on May 9th, through July 11th. 

A special thanks are owed to the continuing assistance from Alex Kaufman of the Wintry Mix podcast in fact checking and perspective gaining in the course of reporting on this story.


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## mbedle (Apr 26, 2016)

Did the receivership get the money they need to keep Jay Peak open through October 2016? I know they got the 750K for the Hotel at Burke.


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## The Sneak (Apr 26, 2016)

River19 said:


> You are right, what was I thinking......those unwashed heathens could not possibly have the means to both an expensive bike AND a Porsche......lol
> 
> As I sit here playing with numbers dreaming of my bikes.....



Ahem. The Cayenne is not a Porsche any more than a Mini is a BMW or a tranny is a woman.
Carry on.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

> [h=1]Defense attorney: Quiros is ‘no Bernie Madoff’


[/h]
Yes, that is certainly true.  

Bernie Madoff is diabolically brilliant, whereas Ariel Quiros is moronically evil.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

> The Stateside project at Jay Peak, for example, included *84 townhomes  that were not completed, and about $26 million is needed to complete the  projects. That money is basically missing*, he said. DEW Construction,  which is owed $3 million, walked off the job in early 2016.



All these townhomes all incomplete?  They look pretty complete from the outside, has anyone been inside?   

If the above is true, it might blow a hole in the prediction I made a year or two back that I look forward to staying at Jay Peak for cheap someday (i.e. building to overcapacity versus demand).


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## MG Skier (Apr 26, 2016)

Can someone tell me what is wrong with the Tram at Jay? I have read in a few places now that it requires 1 Million to repair. Is it tower work or mechanical at either end? I think the haul rope was replaced somewhat recently. Just curious. 

I skied there Monday and Tuesday last week but the Tram wasn't running, neither was the Flyer, I heard overheating on the Flyer err um Freezer. I assume the terrain off the Tram was toast and that is why it wasn't running. Again, just curious.


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## Smellytele (Apr 26, 2016)

Not really related but does anyone know of any EB-5 projects in NH besides the one in Lincoln? Loon Hotel.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> *Can someone tell me what is wrong with the Tram at Jay?*



JFK was president when they broke ground.



MG Skier said:


> I have read in a few places now that *it requires 1 Million to repair.*



The cost estimate is $4.15 Million to repair, and like all cost "estimates", the true figure will go north of that.


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## telemike (Apr 26, 2016)

Ragged Mtn. I've been wondering about that one myself


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## MG Skier (Apr 26, 2016)

Wow 4.15 Million!!

BG, I just read your other post on Burke....I hear ya, I seldom take it when I am up there. I only take it when there is no line. It is an alternative when the Flyer craps out however. I think I ski from the top every other third year!


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

I think it has to do with an overhaul of the drive and electrical system at the base. The towers, haul rope, support cables and towers have all been refurbed during the last decade.


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## The Sneak (Apr 26, 2016)

Most of the time I ski off the Jet triple anyway.
Or hike a bit from top of Bonnie.

Not really a fan of either Freezer or Tram there.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think it has to do with an overhaul of the drive and electrical system at the base. The towers, haul rope, support cables and towers have all been refurbed during the last decade.



It sounds like the ratio of the cost of maintaining it compared to the number of skiers it carries is pretty poor.  

But as much as I am not a fan of the tram, it is truly an iconic lift for Jay Peak.  It's hard to imagine Jay Peak without it.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

The Sneak said:


> Not really a fan of either Freezer or Tram there.


Is there any way they could put a bubble on the Freezer, or would that just result in way too many more wind holds?


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## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Is there any way they could put a bubble on the Freezer, or would that just result in way too many more wind holds?



Bubbles would just be giant wind sails. They are totally impractical in northern New England.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## LONGBOARDR (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think it has to do with an overhaul of the drive and electrical system at the base. The towers, haul rope, support cables and towers have all been refurbed during the last decade.



That is what I heard, plus all safety sensors detectors need to be replaced. That 4 mill could probably be better spent until they get an new owner.  Pretty short hike or skin from the flyer for goods on the ridge which would mostly be untouched.
Green Beret can be pretty enjoyable  on a pow day first traxs


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## Abubob (Apr 26, 2016)

dlague said:


> -The Burlington Free Press publishes an article today claiming that cash flow issues will force Jay Peak and Q Burke Hotel (not the mountain, mind you) to close. But it seems the receivership of both properties – Q Burke Hotel was added to the receivership as well – was floated a $750,000 loan to keep the doors open for the next three months. Chill, people! Title is suggested to TGR that reads "Burke Mountain and Jay Peak Plan to Operate Normally In Opposition to Media Yelling 'Closed!' For Clicks."


Well - if that's true it's a relief - as long as no Q's are involved. 

oops.


> Stenger's sons remain employees at Jay Peak, and Ary Quiros, the controversial CEO of "Q" Burke Mountain Resort, remains employed there as well.


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## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> That is what I heard, plus all safety sensors detectors need to be replaced. That 4 mill could probably be better spent until they get an new owner.  Pretty short hike or skin from the flyer for goods on the ridge which would mostly be untouched.
> Green Beret can be pretty enjoyable  on a pow day first traxs



The tram cost $2M to build back in the 1960s. That would be more like $15M scaled for inflation.


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## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Is there any way they could put a bubble on the Freezer, or would that just result in way too many more wind holds?



This questions has been asked often.   The north ridge is just too windy.  In addition, they've mentioned that bubbles on a detachable makes it even more susceptible to wind.


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## fbrissette (Apr 26, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Pretty short hike or skin from the flyer for goods on the ridge which would mostly be untouched.
> Green Beret can be pretty enjoyable  on a pow day first traxs



Personnally, I'd be happy with a winter with no tram.   However, with no Tram , there would not be any grooming to the top so the short hike would be exponentially harder.  The ridge would ski beautifully most of the year,


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 26, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Personnally, I'd be happy with a winter with no tram.   However, with no Tram , there would not be any grooming to the top so the short hike would be exponentially harder.  The ridge would ski beautifully most of the year,



If that happened, I wonder if they would keep a snowcat shuttle at the top of the Flyer to shuttle guests up to the Summit Haus for events? That would keep a pretty good path packed in for hiking, unless there was a fresh snowfall with drifting .


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

I think it is very likely that the Tram will be repaired and running as normal.  That is a crucial piece of infrastructure.


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## River19 (Apr 26, 2016)

The Sneak said:


> Ahem. The Cayenne is not a Porsche any more than a Mini is a BMW or a tranny is a woman.
> Carry on.



Porsche has only ever made two real cars.....the 356 and the 911......right?  lol

Sure there were some fantastic vehicles with the logo worthy of praise (944, 928, come to mind)....but........I digress.

Back on topic.....lol


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## dlague (Apr 26, 2016)

Possibly forced to close?

http://www.boston.com/news/business...aud-probe?s_campaign=bcom:socialflow:facebook


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## LONGBOARDR (Apr 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> If that happened, I wonder if they would keep a snowcat shuttle at the top of the Flyer to shuttle guests up to the Summit Haus for events? That would keep a pretty good path packed in for hiking, unless there was a fresh snowfall with drifting .



They would groom it since they need access to the telecommunications gear up there, and microwave repeaters.
Jay would lose a bit of food revenue but save on 8-10 full time salaries, not having to make snow on upper northway vermonter.  4+ million is a lot of dough when you have none and everyone is owed money. 
The other lifts could use some love too. I'd give it a real hard look based on my view from 242


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## Zermatt (Apr 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is very likely that the Tram will be repaired and running as normal.  That is a crucial piece of infrastructure.



Just a gut feeling?  Seems to be an essential piece of equipment but nobody is working for free and Jay has no credit.

Lots of wishcasting


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

They are trying to open a line of credit.  A lot is going to depend on that.  One bank executive I spoke with today said that he wouldn't touch Jay with a ten foot pole right now.  Hopefully someone out there will.


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## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

You're got to give real thought to abandoning the tram until receivership is over. It sucks my they've got some numbers to crunch.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2016)

What's notable is that their small profit has come only by putting extremely little into the mountain infrastructure. Let's be honest. Jay could easily use about $20 million worth of infrastructure improvements.  That's 7-10 years worth of their "profit".  And pretty soon the hotels are going to need some capital expenditures.  It's not a business for the timid.


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## Zermatt (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> They are trying to open a line of credit.  A lot is going to depend on that.  One bank executive I spoke with today said that he wouldn't touch Jay with a ten foot pole right now.  Hopefully someone out there will.



That was my feeling, no bank will touch them. They have no collateral, the assets are all tainted with potentially stolen funds. They may not have any reliable financial records either.


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## Zermatt (Apr 26, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> What's notable is that their small profit has come only by putting extremely little into the mountain infrastructure. Let's be honest. Jay could easily use about $20 million worth of infrastructure improvements.  That's 7-10 years worth of their "profit".  And pretty soon the hotels are going to need some capital expenditures.  It's not a business for the timid.



Who says they have a profit? Is there audited financial information?

Could be a great business if you pick it up for a $1 and no debt....


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## thetrailboss (Apr 26, 2016)

billo said:


> Just a gut feeling?  Seems to be an essential piece of equipment but nobody is working for free and Jay has no credit.
> 
> Lots of wishcasting



I doubt the receiver will not fix it. That was part of his (now granted) request.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Apr 26, 2016)

Tram would make a great zip line.


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## The Sneak (Apr 26, 2016)

River19 said:


> Porsche has only ever made two real cars.....the 356 and the 911......right?  lol
> 
> Sure there were some fantastic vehicles with the logo worthy of praise (944, 928, come to mind)....but........I digress.
> 
> Back on topic.....lol



Close.
968
912
Cayman
...all also great

I don't wanna derail this wonderful thread. 

944S2, sure why not.


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## yeggous (Apr 26, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Tram would make a great zip line.



We have a winner.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> BG, I just read your other post on Burke....I hear ya, *I seldom take it when I am up there.* I only take it when there is no line. It is an alternative when the Flyer craps out however. *I think I ski from the top every other third year!*



Join the club.  That's the general consensus.  The Tram is for the vacationing hoards and folks who ski 2 days per year.  It's a shame, because there is great terrain off the top of Jay, but the Tram gives you herpes.



fbrissette said:


> *Personnally, I'd be happy with a winter with no tram.*   However, with no Tram , there would not be any grooming to the top so the short hike would be exponentially harder.



You'll think differently when the "Jerry of the day" crowd normally lapping the Tram, makes the other lift lines intolerably long.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

The Jay Tram only has an uphill capacity of 360 skiers per hour.  Compare that with the 2400 capacity of the Flyer.  You would not notice much of a difference in lift lines at the other lifts at all if the Tram closed.


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## steamboat1 (Apr 26, 2016)

15% increase


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## deadheadskier (Apr 26, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> 15% increase



For the Flyer? Maybe. Hard to say how the people would redistribute to the other lifts.  With a total uphill capacity of 12820 people per hour, the Trams 360 is only about 3% of their overall capacity.


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## steamboat1 (Apr 26, 2016)

Flyer would be the only high speed lift.


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## dlague (Apr 26, 2016)

IMO they should put a fixed grip lift from Northway tonthe summit and ditch the tram.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> 15% increase



That's not nearly as bad as I would have thought (though it would/will still be irksome).  

Without doing the math I was guessing something like 25%.


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## River19 (Apr 27, 2016)

Naive question......but with $4.15M to fix the tram, what would a new quad cost to install by comparison?


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## Not Sure (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It sounds like the ratio of the cost of maintaining it compared to the number of skiers it carries is pretty poor.
> 
> But as much as I am not a fan of the tram, it is truly an iconic lift for Jay Peak.  It's hard to imagine Jay Peak without it.



I've ridden the Tram at Cannon in summertime and speaking with the operator the Tram gets more traffic outside of ski season . So it generates revenue not just in ski season .

Does Jay run the Tram off season ?


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## MG Skier (Apr 27, 2016)

Yes, the Tram does run off season. I hiked up a few years back and rode the tram down.


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## LONGBOARDR (Apr 27, 2016)

dlague said:


> IMO they should put a fixed grip lift from Northway tonthe summit and ditch the tram.



It was called the Skyline double and was taken down after the tram was completed I believe. coupled with the old poma off the top of now Ullrs it was a nice combo for upper elevation skiing back in the day
Walter Foeger knew what the hell he was doing IMO


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## DJAK (Apr 27, 2016)

Governor going to be at Jay this morning to meet with some staff and say Governor-y stuff. It was kept off his schedule till midnight, likely to keep the media circus under control. I'm told it'll be positive news about funding etc. I might get some shreds of details while it's underway. Tend to get them out via @WintryMixCast or @SkiTheEast when that happens.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Does Jay run the Tram off season ?



The tram is also run in the off season for foliage viewing, general tourist sightseeing, and (here's the big one) summit weddings. It gets quite a bit of traffic, not as much as ski season but I think it earns its keep in novelty factor as well.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The tram is also run in the off season for foliage viewing, general tourist sightseeing, and (here's the big one) summit weddings. It gets quite a bit of traffic, not as much as ski season but I think it earns its keep in novelty factor as well.



I wonder what the schedule will be like this summer since work has to be done on the tram.


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I wonder what the schedule will be like this summer since work has to be done on the tram.



I'm guessing with a maintenance project like this, the mtn ops folks at Jay knew this would be coming for a year or 2, and likely coordinated with the marketing/wedding planning folks long ago saying that the Tram will be down for #X number of weeks for planned maintenance, so don't book/schedule any events where the Tram would be needed during that time.

It's like out at Snowbird right now, they're doing some planned major planned maintenance on their tram, where they know that the Tram is going to be out of service for if I recall off the top of my head, 6 weeks or so, and were able to plan around it.

"Major" maintenance is far different often than the "oh sh$t" something just broke maintenance that can't be planned for, and as lonf as the mtn ops folks have a decent line of communication with the marketing/event planning folks AND the folks from the lift manufacturers and mtn ops folks are able to complete the planned maintenance on time, things typically go off without any additional pre-planned downtime for the lift


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This questions has been asked often.   The north ridge is just too windy.  In addition, they've mentioned that bubbles on a detachable makes it even more susceptible to wind.



Having witnessed 1st hand how bubbles handle the for the last 5 seasons now,  that statement just isn't completely true at all.  Sure, there are winds that a bubble can't run in (just like any other lift), however, with the bubble down, the sheer mass of the chair (a bubble 6 pack weighs about 1400lbs before you even put a person on the lift) vs. a non bubble chair allows them to handle winds that non bubble chairs can't safely operate in.

On windy days, the bubble NEEDS to be down, and from what I experience at Mount Snow, the lift ops folks are quite clear and adamant about having to put the bubble down on a windy day for the safe operation of the lift.  I've been on many bubble rides, on days where it's gusting over 50, that the bubble is running (not at full speed, but is operating) when multiple high speed and fixed grips lifts can't.

So to say that bubbles are more susceptible to the wind, just hasn't been my experience over the last 5 seasons, totaling over 200 days, when Mount Snow has been running their bubble


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## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Having witnessed 1st hand how bubbles handle the for the last 5 seasons now,  that statement just isn't completely true at all.  Sure, there are winds that a bubble can't run in (just like any other lift), however, with the bubble down, the sheer mass of the chair (a bubble 6 pack weighs about 1400lbs before you even put a person on the lift) vs. a non bubble chair allows them to handle winds that non bubble chairs can't safely operate in.
> 
> On windy days, the bubble NEEDS to be down, and from what I experience at Mount Snow, the lift ops folks are quite clear and adamant about having to put the bubble down on a windy day for the safe operation of the lift.  I've been on many bubble rides, on days where it's gusting over 50, that the bubble is running (not at full speed, but is operating) when multiple high speed and fixed grips lifts can't.
> 
> So to say that bubbles are more susceptible to the wind, just hasn't been my experience over the last 5 seasons, totaling over 200 days, when Mount Snow has been running there bubble



The problem with bubbles is when they are open.   They can act as a sail especially in cross-winds.  I does not matter how much it weighs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtcFa2lB1lc


The Freezer is Jay Peak most important lift, and it has already has 10-15% downtime due to wind.  Any additional downtime would be critical.  It is very exposed to severe cross winds.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

River19 said:


> Naive question......but *with $4.15M to fix the tram, what would a new quad cost to install by comparison?*



No idea, but if you're just going off recent projects at other resorts, probably something like $4 to $5.5M I'd guess.


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> The problem with bubbles is when they are open.   They can act as a sail especially in cross-winds.  I does not matter how much it weighs.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtcFa2lB1lc
> 
> ...



No disagreement from me whatsoever about what can happen on a very windy day with a bubble, or any chair for that matter.

That video if I recall correctly, was from over in Europe, where the wind gusts at that time were over 75 mph, and if you notice on the scan around of the video, all other lifts near that summit location weren't operating at that time.  I witnessed 1st hand during the 1st season Mount Snow had their bubble a windy day, where all of the "bugs" hadn't been worked out of the lift yet, and the feature that is supposed to close a bubble if nobody is on it, wasn't working at a bubble with nobody on it, with the bubble up that was 4 or 5 chairs in front of the 1 I was riding on, crested a ridge line and was blasted by some strong winds that had that empty chair rocking 30+ degrees to each side pendulum style. They shut the lift down soon there after for safety reasons that day.

I am in no way saying that a bubble can operate in any winds, they can't!!  What I am saying, is that I have seen on many occasions over the last 5 seasons instances where a bubble can safely operate in winds that other fixed grip or highspeed lifts can't safely operate in.  More often than not, with any chairlift though it might not be the wind velocity that presents the safety issue as it is the angle that the wind is coming from and how that effects the chairs either on the haul rope as they pass through the sheave trains on the lift towers or more likely as the chairs pass through the top terminal

What i have experienced personally at Mount Snow is that before the bubble was installed, summit lift operations were effected on something not too far off than that 10-15% figure you mention for the Freezer.  Since the bubble has been in at Mount Snow, that figure has been I'd day cut in half.  There are just some days in and around a storm, that the winds across the Northeast are going to blow at a velocity and wind angle that won't allow for safe operation regardless of the type of lift


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

I really like the concept of the Chondola at Mt. Orford.  I'm not convinced that it would work at Jay Peak, but I really like the idea of being able to choose whether I want to ride a chair or in a gondola depending on the weather conditions.


----------



## River19 (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No idea, but if you're just going off recent projects at other resorts, probably something like $4 to $5.5M I'd guess.



Reason why I was asking is that while iconic, if I were a buyer of this mess, and I had $4.5M in capital to spend on this issue, I might consider the option of a new Quad altogether if the tram could remain in place until such time as I wanted to repair it.

That isn't a likely scenario but.....I was just throwing around ideas


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

River19 said:


> Naive question......but with $4.15M to fix the tram, what would a new quad cost to install by comparison?



Sounds like close to $6m.

_"Mt. Bachelor will open the long-awaited east side expansion served by a new high speed quad called Cloudchaser in time for Christmas.  Powdr Corp. has signed a nearly $6 million contract with Doppelmayr to install the lift this summer."_


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Sounds like close to $6m.
> 
> _"Mt. Bachelor will open the long-awaited east side expansion served by a new high speed quad called Cloudchaser in time for Christmas.  Powdr Corp. has signed a nearly $6 million contract with Doppelmayr to install the lift this summer."_



My guess was $6 to $7 million.  The terrain would likely make it trickier than normal.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

DJAK said:


> Governor going to be at Jay this morning to meet with some staff and say Governor-y stuff. It was kept off his schedule till midnight, likely to keep the media circus under control.




It is shocking to me how little accountability and consequences the government is facing thus far.

The State of Vermont did* NOTHING* in terms of financial analysis and accounting over this program, and *100% repeatedly lied to the people.*

 The State of Vemmont was not an innocent bystander in this, there were 100% negligent in their fiduciary duties. 

 If this SAME thing happened at a private corporation, *MANY* people would have already been fired (and possibly worse), but sadly, because the government owns the bayonets and guns, it's all good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

What I'd still really like to know is if Brent  Raymond has been investigated by the SEC as well?

  I still consider it a  50:50 coin toss between "direct involvement" and "stereotypical  incompetent government employee", but I'd love to see that path delved  into so we know for sure. 

 For me, at this point it's the biggest loose  end in this matter, whether he or some other person(s) at State of  Vermont had direct involvement, because even for someone like _myself_, who previously thought government incompetence can never be considered "shocking" -  this is shocking.  

To summarize: State of Vermont is so unbelievably grossly incompetent, that this has always appeared more "willful" to me, than inept.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Having witnessed 1st hand how bubbles handle the for the last 5 seasons now,  that statement just isn't completely true at all.  Sure, there are winds that a bubble can't run in (just like any other lift), however, with the bubble down, the sheer mass of the chair (a bubble 6 pack weighs about 1400lbs before you even put a person on the lift) vs. a non bubble chair allows them to handle winds that non bubble chairs can't safely operate in.
> 
> On windy days, the bubble NEEDS to be down, and from what I experience at Mount Snow, the lift ops folks are quite clear and adamant about having to put the bubble down on a windy day for the safe operation of the lift.  I've been on many bubble rides, on days where it's gusting over 50, that the without a bubble would handle wind better bubble is running (not at full speed, but is operating) when multiple high speed and fixed grips lifts can't.
> 
> So to say that bubbles are more susceptible to the wind, just hasn't been my experience over the last 5 seasons, totaling over 200 days, when Mount Snow has been running their bubble


I'm not taking anything away from bubbles but I would think a six pack without a bubble would handle wind better than one with a bubble. The chairs themselves weigh a lot more than a quad chair & without the wind resistance of a bubble would be better in wind IMO.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

I think it's time to bring back Mr. Cranmore's skimobile.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2016)

River19 said:


> Reason why I was asking is that while iconic, if I were a buyer of this mess, and I had $4.5M in capital to spend on this issue, I might consider the option of a new Quad altogether if the tram could remain in place until such time as I wanted to repair it.
> 
> That isn't a likely scenario but.....I was just throwing around ideas



I would think a HSQ in that location would cost considerably more than $4M.  Really steep top section would require tremendous horsepower to operate and challenging lift tower placement.  

Other consideration is where to start the lift? Certainly wouldn't want it to start at the base where the Tram is today.  

Factor in the cost of removing the Tram and it would be one of the more expensive installs the Northeast has ever seen.  The Mid Burke cost $5M. I would anticipate a summit HSQ at Jay costing much more.

Smarter money would be to fix the Tram; mainly for non-skiing purposes and then bring back the old summit double if you could squeeze it in skiers left of the Tram.


----------



## Edd (Apr 27, 2016)

Anti-tram though I am, we're forgetting something. If the tram is ditched the name of the hotel, Tram Haus, no longer makes sense. 

Come on guys (taps temple condescendingly), use your brains.


----------



## DJAK (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> It is shocking to me how little accountability and consequences the government is facing thus far.
> 
> The State of Vermont did* NOTHING* in terms of financial analysis and accounting over this program, and *100% repeatedly lied to the people.*
> 
> ...



I'd agree. And it's a big reason why I give Bill some credit. From 2008 till 2013 AQ owned 80% of the mountain and everyone was cheering Bill on to fulfill these promises at the resort he's run for 30 years. What was Bill going to do if he smelled fishy from AQ? Halt everything? Break every promise made to staff, region, based on stuff the resort owner was doing no one seemed to care about? Tough spot.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

DJAK said:


> I'd agree. And it's a big reason why I give Bill some credit. From 2008 till 2013 AQ owned 80% of the mountain and everyone was cheering Bill on to fulfill these promises at the resort he's run for 30 years. What was Bill going to do if he smelled fishy from AQ? Halt everything? Break every promise made to staff, region, based on stuff the resort owner was doing no one seemed to care about? Tough spot.



It may have been a tough spot, but I don't think that "facilitate the theft of $50 million of investor's money" (allegedly, ahem...) was the right answer.

I've said before that Stenger could have come out of this looking pretty darn good if he blew the whistle a couple of years ago.  The only thing that would have been lost would have been the Burke hotel and some condos at Jay.  But he doubled down.


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## MG Skier (Apr 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> It was called the Skyline double and was taken down after the tram was completed I believe. coupled with the old poma off the top of now Ullrs it was a nice combo for upper elevation skiing back in the day
> Walter Foeger knew what the hell he was doing IMO



One of my favorite pictures of Old Jay is the  top tram house being constructed with the Skyline Double in the foreground...there is some steep stuff there!


----------



## MG Skier (Apr 27, 2016)

Finally 50 posts! Or is it OMG I spend that much time reading alpine zone at work.......NAH!


----------



## dlague (Apr 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> It was called the Skyline double and was taken down after the tram was completed I believe. coupled with the old poma off the top of now Ullrs it was a nice combo for upper elevation skiing back in the day
> Walter Foeger knew what the hell he was doing IMO



I have seen pictures of it and it would be nice to have something like it again.


----------



## dlague (Apr 27, 2016)

http://www.tetongravity.com/story/n...il&utm_term=0_02c03531f8-64bce774a5-274830265


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

dlague said:


> http://www.tetongravity.com/story/n...il&utm_term=0_02c03531f8-64bce774a5-274830265



That article is very misleading, especially the following section: 

-The Burlington Free Press publishes an article today claiming that cash flow issues will force Jay Peak and Q Burke Hotel (not the mountain, mind you) to close. But it seems the receivership of both properties – Q Burke Hotel was added to the receivership as well – was floated a $750,000 loan to keep the doors open for the next three months. Chill, people! Title is suggested to TGR that reads "Burke Mountain and Jay Peak Plan to Operate Normally In Opposition to Media Yelling 'Closed!' For Clicks."


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> That article is very misleading, especially the following section:
> 
> -The Burlington Free Press publishes an article today claiming that cash flow issues will force Jay Peak and Q Burke Hotel (not the mountain, mind you) to close. But it seems the receivership of both properties – Q Burke Hotel was added to the receivership as well – was floated a $750,000 loan to keep the doors open for the next three months. Chill, people! Title is suggested to TGR that reads "Burke Mountain and Jay Peak Plan to Operate Normally In Opposition to Media Yelling 'Closed!' For Clicks."



That had to do with the sensational headline in the BFP that had an out of context quote with no other explanation around the headline. The BFP article was HEAVILY revised after the TGR article came out.

The full TGR article was to summarize the various takes that various media outlets had on the situation while adding a bit of their own flare to it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

So someone who have been following this a bit more closely than me answer this:

Initially the Tram work was going to cost in the six figures and the $750k was going to cover it.  When did it balloon to $4.1 mill for the same work?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 27, 2016)

I think the initial six figure number was for a deposit to start the work.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> I think the initial six figure number was for a deposit to start the work.



Ah, OK.  Makes sense now.  Thanks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

Here is the 32 minute conference. 

http://www.wcax.com/story/31829194/o...ll-remain-open


----------



## tumbler (Apr 27, 2016)

The more I think about this I think that Stenger was so drunk off his own Kool-aid that he was the savior of the NEK.  Therefore any wrong doing that was going on would be dismissed because of all the good he was doing.  A modern day Robin Hood.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So someone who have been following this a bit more closely than me answer this:
> 
> Initially the Tram work was going to cost in the six figures and the $750k was going to cover it.  When did it balloon to $4.1 mill for the same work?



The 750K loan the receivership obtained is not for Jay Peak, only the Q Burke Hotel - to cover costs for the next 3 months. The deposit needed for the Tram was, I think, slightly above 1 million.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That had to do with the sensational headline in the BFP that had an out of context quote with no other explanation around the headline. The BFP article was HEAVILY revised after the TGR article came out.
> 
> The full TGR article was to summarize the various takes that various media outlets had on the situation while adding a bit of their own flare to it.



My problem is the article references the 750K loan from Jay Peak to Q Burke Hotel & Conference Center (for only 3 months of operations) and makes it sound like that money will allow Jay Peak and Q Burke to remain open. That is wrong and not what has occurred. The possibility of Jay Peak running out of money still very much exist, no mater what the Governor says in a news conference. The possibility that in the fall, the Q Burke Ski Resort doesn't have any money to open is also very possible - especially if they don't find a buyer by that time. Don't forget about the 5.5 million outstanding balance on the Q Burke Hotel and those leans are not going to disappear. They are just frozen like the rest of the assets.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

Edd said:


> Anti-tram though I am, we're forgetting something. *If the tram is ditched the name of the hotel, Tram Haus, no longer makes sense. *
> 
> Come on guys (taps temple condescendingly), use your brains.



Rename it, the Finally Skiable Terrain Haus.



DJAK said:


> I'd agree. And it's a big reason why I give Bill some credit. From 2008 till 2013 AQ owned 80% of the mountain and everyone was cheering Bill on to fulfill these promises at the resort he's run for 30 years. *What was Bill going to do if he smelled fishy from AQ? Halt everything?* Break every promise made to staff, region, based on stuff the resort owner was doing no one seemed to care about? Tough spot.



Assuming he didn't want to go to jail and possesses a basic moral compass distinguishing between "right" and "wrong", then, yes.


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## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Goldberg say that Jay would need between $7m-$11.5m to continue operations at Jay for the off season alone? I'm not sure if that includes repairs to the tram which are estimated to be $4.1m. Also I don't recall reading anything about a $1m deposit already being made towards the repair of the tram. What I remember reading is they would need to put a 50% deposit down shortly towards the cost of the repair in order to get it done. Didn't sound as if any deposit had already been made. It also doesn't sound like Jay has anywhere near that amount of cash on hand frozen or not.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

The deposit hadn't been made as of last week.


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## abc (Apr 27, 2016)

tumbler said:


> The more I think about this I think that Stenger was so drunk off his own Kool-aid that he was the savior of the NEK.  Therefore any wrong doing that was going on would be dismissed because of all the good he was doing.  A modern day Robin Hood.


Ask any con man, he truly believe his own con!

He's providing for his family. The victim has tons of money surely they wouldn't feel much pain...


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## sull1102 (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Goldberg say that Jay would need between $7m-$11.5m to continue operations at Jay for the off season alone? I'm not sure if that includes repairs to the tram which are estimated to be $4.1m. Also I don't recall reading anything about a $1m deposit already being made towards the repair of the tram. What I remember reading is they would need to put a 50% deposit down shortly towards the cost of the repair in order to get it done. Didn't sound as if any deposit had already been made. It also doesn't sound like Jay has anywhere near that amount of cash on hand frozen or not.



Stowe has a nice Doppelmayr double ready to install, cost a hell of a lot less than fixing the tram. Can they not run the tram for a season and then new owners come in and repair it.


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2016)

Am I the only person that thinks that even the "arm chair ski area GM" notion of taking out what is one of the few legitimate signature lifts on the East Coast, and one that does play into Jay's marketing and branding is crazy??


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

I mentioned that earlier.  It's an iconic lift.


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## AdironRider (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I mentioned that earlier.  It's an iconic lift.



Please. Its cool and all but iconic, no way. 

Jay Peak was a backwater with rumored decent snow (at the time, and for the East), just 7 or 8 years ago. Even now, the tram isn't bringing in the masses. Water park and snowfall are what drives Jay. 

There is a list of lifts probably 50 long that have more recognition than Jay's tram, just in the USA.

No summit access is a major problem, but one that can be solved without necessarily the Tram. Throwing 4.1 mill at a 52 year old lift is probably not great long term thinking regardless.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

It's arguably the most recognizable lift in Vermont.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> *Please. *Its cool and all but* iconic, no way. *
> 
> Jay Peak was a backwater with rumored decent snow (at the time, and for the East), just 7 or 8 years ago. Even now, the tram isn't bringing in the masses. Water park and snowfall are what drives Jay.
> *
> ...



Have to agree with this.  

 MRG single chair is "iconic", Jay Peak's tram is antiquated, annoying, and completely inefficient.


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## AdironRider (Apr 27, 2016)

Superstar, Forerunner Quad, that orange bubble at Okemo. 

Just based on skier visits alone a lot more folks have a lot more exposure to numerous lifts in just Vermont. 

No-one went to Jay for the Tram, there is over 40 years of proof for that, if they do/did go, they go/went for the snow. Now they go for a water park/snow.


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## AdironRider (Apr 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Have to agree with this.
> 
> MRG single chair is "iconic", Jay Peak's tram is antiquated, annoying, and completely inefficient.



Even Jackson's tram is inefficient at 600 people per hour max. Jay's capacity is probably substantially less on theirs.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Even Jackson's tram is inefficient at 600 people per hour max. Jay's capacity is probably substantially less on theirs.



Jay's is a mere 360 per hour.


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## cdskier (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay's is a mere 360 per hour.



What exactly are the benefits of a tram if the capacity is so low? They obviously don't appear to be cost efficient to maintain.


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## fbrissette (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Superstar, Forerunner Quad, that orange bubble at Okemo.
> 
> Just based on skier visits alone a lot more folks have a lot more exposure to numerous lifts in just Vermont.
> 
> No-one went to Jay for the Tram, there is over 40 years of proof for that, if they do/did go, they go/went for the snow. Now they go for a water park/snow.


 Just do a youtube search with any of the above mentioned lifts and compare against the Tram.  The Tram is a different experience.  A quad is just a quad.


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## gladerider (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Please. Its cool and all but iconic, no way.
> 
> Jay Peak was a backwater with rumored decent snow (at the time, and for the East), just 7 or 8 years ago. Even now, the tram isn't bringing in the masses. Water park and snowfall are what drives Jay.
> 
> ...


Disagree. It's iconic simply because there is only a few. Iconic doesn't necessarily equate to popular. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## Zermatt (Apr 27, 2016)

cdskier said:


> What exactly are the benefits of a tram if the capacity is so low? They obviously don't appear to be cost efficient to maintain.



It's basically old technology. I love them, but they are inefficient. 

They work great in Europe where you are going up nearly vertiCal terrain over places you can't install towers. 

Absolutely no technical reason Jay needs a tram. Newer lifts or Funitels could handle wind better I believe.


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## AdironRider (Apr 27, 2016)

gladerider said:


> Disagree. It's iconic simply because there is only a few. Iconic doesn't necessarily equate to popular.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk



Trams are neat and cool and kids love them. Jay does not do enough business to have anything be considered iconic however. 

Skiers are a minority even among Vermont residents. I guarantee you the majority of even the Vermont population doesn't even know they have a tram. 

Again, nobody goes to Jay solely to ride the tram, they go because they get good snow. How can it be iconic if it is not a primary driver of visitation?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 27, 2016)

gladerider said:


> Disagree. It's iconic simply because there is only a few. Iconic doesn't necessarily equate to popular.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk



Bingo.  Some people need to hit the dictionary.  


.


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## Quietman (Apr 27, 2016)

cdskier said:


> What exactly are the benefits of a tram if the capacity is so low? They obviously don't appear to be cost efficient to maintain.



Summer tourists @$10 per trip.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> It's arguably the most recognizable lift in Vermont.



I would agree. It and the MRG single are the only two lifts in the state I'd consider iconic; a feature people heavily associate a mountain with.  

It may not be efficient to ski from, but the experience and views being that high off the ground (especially for non-skiers) is pretty cool.

Nothing like it in not only VT, but all the East Coast. (At least that I've experienced) Jay Tram > Cannon Tram simply because of how how high off the ground it gets.


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## gladerider (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Trams are neat and cool and kids love them. Jay does not do enough business to have anything be considered iconic however.
> 
> Skiers are a minority even among Vermont residents. I guarantee you the majority of even the Vermont population doesn't even know they have a tram.
> 
> Again, nobody goes to Jay solely to ride the tram, they go because they get good snow. How can it be iconic if it is not a primary driver of visitation?



not arguing with you about the popularity of Jay. i can certainly see the tram being part of the brand image for Jay. it helps Jay to be unique and different than others. i agree that it may not attract people on it's own. i could be wrong, but isn't it the only tram in NVT? and that it helps people to recognize Jay? i can see how someone can call it iconic just for that reason.


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## MG Skier (Apr 27, 2016)

Nice pic deaheadskier!

My girl and I hiked up a few years back and we were shocked the ride down was free. I am sure the couples getting married appreciate the tram. BTW down is a whole different experience than up, of course not holding onto skis and poles was too.

Just keep the Tram Ale flowing.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 27, 2016)

gladerider said:


> i could be wrong, but isn't it the only tram in NVT?




only tram in vermont, period. 

it is certainly iconic.

it's also certainly a pain in the fucking ass to ski valhalla and the face.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay's is a mere 360 per hour.



Iconically inefficient, leading to an iconically sub-optimal skiing experience.


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## machski (Apr 27, 2016)

Look how Jay's top terminal is installed.  It is bolted to the face of the summit.  Where and how would any of you propose to install a top detach lift terminal there?  You could not without blasting the hell out of the summit.  I have heard if they had tried to install the Tram from scratch today, they would have never gotten the permits for it from the State.  The Tram is staying.  The only other option to access the summit IMHO would be a short FG chair accessible after riding the flyer.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

billo said:


> It's basically old technology. I love them, but they are inefficient.
> 
> They work great in Europe where you are going up nearly vertiCal terrain over places you can't install towers.
> 
> Absolutely no technical reason Jay needs a tram. Newer lifts or Funitels could handle wind better I believe.



Have you ridden the Tram at Jay? There is a pretty good technical reason for it at the summit...steep cliffs that you describe.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> only tram in vermont, period.
> 
> it is certainly iconic.
> 
> it's also certainly a pain in the fucking ass to ski valhalla and the face.



Exactly. When folks think of Jay they think of snow, the Tram, and now the water park. Is it the most ideal lift? No.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2016)

machski said:


> The only other option to access the summit IMHO would be *a short FG chair accessible after riding the flyer.*



Sign me up for that.  It would be nice to ski Green Beret and Valhalla more than once or twice a year.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. When folks think of Jay they think of snow, the Tram, and now the water park. Is it the most ideal lift? No.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I think trees and how I wish they had a chair up Northway like they used to. Waiting in Cannon Tram line > Jay Tram line


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## Zermatt (Apr 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Have you ridden the Tram at Jay? There is a pretty good technical reason for it at the summit...steep cliffs that you describe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I agree, they'd have to chop apart the peak to get a chair in there. I forgot how steep it is at the top.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

billo said:


> I agree, they'd have to chop apart the peak to get a chair in there. I forgot how steep it is at the top.



au contraire mon ami...


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## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Summer tourists @$10 per trip.


It's $20 to ride the K-1 gondola for a scenic ride year round. Believe me quite a few people ride it during the winter just to get to the Peak Lodge for lunch (moo money).


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## yeggous (Apr 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> It's $20 to ride the K-1 gondola for a scenic ride year round. Believe me quite a few people ride it during the winter just to get to the Peak Lodge for lunch (moo money).



This why I give credit to Bretton Woods. They give free chairlift rides in the summer. That way you can take the chair up to get lunch at Latitude 44. They're gotten my money that way. I really wish Cranmore would do the same.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Apr 27, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Even Jackson's tram is inefficient at 600 people per hour max. Jay's capacity is probably substantially less on theirs.



And yet Jackson spent what?? 15 million if I recall correctly, a few years ago to replace the tram after outcry from many over the alternative replacement plans which was what a Gondola and a chair?? Or 2 gondolas?? I can't remember the exact details, but do recall that those options were cheaper than a new tram, but the public outcry over removing a truly iconic lift was compelling enough for them to spend the extra cash for the new tram

Let's be honest in the East, for truly high recognition lifts, the kind that even non skiers have likely seen pictures of, Mad River's Single and Jay's Tram (IMHO more so than Cannon's tram) are on that short list


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## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Pardon my error, it's $20 one way, $25 round trip. $75 for a family of 4. That doesn't include lunch. Cha ching.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Let's be honest in the East, for truly high recognition lifts, the kind that even non skiers have likely seen pictures of, Mad River's Single and Jay's Tram (IMHO more so than Cannon's tram) are on that short list



Yup, that's pretty much the short list.

All the old iconic lifts are gone besides those for the most part. I'm thinking Sugarloaf, Wildcat and Sugarbush gondolas. Original K Peak Gondola.  Cranmore Ski Mobile. Stowe single chairs with blankets.

You can leave the Tram and reinstall the old double as has been mentioned several times. That to me is the best option to improve the peak ski experience at Jay while also preserving history


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## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

All this talk about new lifts & rebuilding the tram is hilarious. They're not even sure at this point if they can stay open.


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## steamboat1 (Apr 27, 2016)

But then again....

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-1e1027843b-286323177


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Let's be honest in the East, for truly high recognition lifts, *the kind that even non skiers have likely seen pictures of*, Mad River's Single and* Jay's Tram* *are on that short list*



Non skiers have seen Jay's tram and can readily recognize it as the "Jay Peak" tram?    I highly doubt it.  Maybe if you live in New England, (maybe, and even then I dont know about that), but trust me when I say that if you step outside of New England the masses have generally never even heard of Jay Peak let alone are they capable of identifying a picture of its' Tram.  Hunter, Stowe, and Killington are probably about the only eastern resorts most "south of New England non-skiers" could readily tell you their location on a map.  My 2¢.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

The Caledonian Record editorial board is at it again:



> *Semantic Difference*
> 
> Earlier this week Amy Ash Nixon reported on a federal judge’s decision to place the Q Burke Hotel and Conference Center into receivership. The ruling followed an emergency motion from receiver Michael Goldberg who is tasked with managing Ariel Quiros’ assets ever since the SEC declared the EB-5 developer a fraudster.
> 
> ...


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 28, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> au contraire mon ami...



And you think the freezer is cold, lord


----------



## mister moose (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Non skiers have seen Jay's tram and can readily recognize it as the "Jay Peak" tram?    I highly doubt it.  Maybe if you live in New England, (maybe, and even then I dont know about that), but trust me when I say that if you step outside of New England the masses have generally never even heard of Jay Peak let alone are they capable of identifying a picture of its' Tram.  Hunter, Stowe, and Killington are probably about the only eastern resorts most "south of New England non-skiers" could readily tell you their location on a map.  My 2¢.



In the "any publicity is good publicity" department, Jay Peak already has and is going to get a  lot of press and exposure on this.   One likely result is many more people will be able to point to Jay on a Vermont map.



> _It means Goldberg, a federal appointee, requested and received *permission to commingle and divert funds*._
> _Just so we’re all clear, that’s the very thing that Quiros stands accused of and for which he was conjecturally condemned by state and federal governments._



My take on this is the Judge here essentially allowed Goldberg to pierce the corporate veil of all the different EB-5 partnerships and corporations, and threw in 2 non EB-5 entities: Jay Peak and Burke.  All without a trial.  Seems to me this is highly unusual. 

 One reason might be the enlightening position many EB-5 investors have taken - They have stated they are willing and able to throw *even more money* into the jumble to ensure the likelihood their green cards will qualify and be issued.  Who ever heard in the past of Ponzi scheme targets stepping up to shovel more money at the pyramid?  These folks are not going to object to what the Judge has done, and they are the beneficiaries of the receiver.  It further shows this is not handled or seen by them as an investment that demands a reasonable return, it is more of a prize in a cereal box where you are glad in the end to get a prize and you hope it is something you can use.  Nobody goes out to buy the prize in the cereal box (ie the investment) by itself.  There are no other investors in these projects other than EB-5 investors.

I'm surprised we haven't heard loudly from the ANC Bio investors yet, they have the most to lose when some of their money goes to provide Jay Peak and Burke cash flow, and they have no path to earn their green cards as a result.  Their money (once someone sorts out what percentage of what assets is their money) isn't getting used to provide any new jobs.  Those investors need a new business to point at, not a bailout of an existing one.  Otherwise they should get what's left of their money back if ANC Bio isn't going to launch.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 28, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> And you think the freezer is cold, lord



Wimps can ride the Tram. :razz: I'll take the chair thank you. It would actually elevate some of the long lines at the tram as well. The real issue is the good trails off the top are not open enough to make it worth riding the Tram and most of the traffic skis on one trail that sucks and is really just a traverse. The chair would honestly be useless for lapping except on one trail so you would still need to go all the way to the bottom and ride 2 lifts to get to the top.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Non skiers have seen Jay's tram and can readily recognize it as the "Jay Peak" tram?    I highly doubt it.  Maybe if you live in New England, (maybe, and even then I dont know about that), but trust me when I say that if you step outside of New England the masses have generally never even heard of Jay Peak let alone are they capable of identifying a picture of its' Tram.  Hunter, Stowe, and Killington are probably about the only eastern resorts most "south of New England non-skiers" could readily tell you their location on a map.  My 2¢.



I live in New England and could not locate Hunter on a map.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 28, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Summer tourists @$10 per trip.



Yeah, but IF even constantly fully loaded(Which probably never happens in the summer), 8 hrs a day, it's only 2800 people. So...28k per day, minus expenses, times how many operating days in a summer season. Wonder what the more realistic numbers are.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

From what I have seen on summer weekends, there are generally only a handful of people riding the tram.  And it seems as if the tram makes less frequent trips during the course of the day.

I don't think that it is a significant money maker.  You don't have the bus tours that you get at Cannon.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

Too many of you guys are focusing on the tree and are missing the rest of the forest.
The tram isn't a money maker by itself. Technically, it is more of a carnival ride. In the off-season it is an ancillary attraction for hotel guests and other tourists that come to Jay for other activities (water park, golf, hockey, and especially weddings). In the fall, people do come to Jay specifically to ride the tram for fall foliage viewing. In the winter it is definitely a bottle neck for those wanting to get to the summit. But I'll reiterate my argument that the terrain at the summit cannot support the number of skiers a lift would drop off up there. The advanced trails (Face, Chutes, Saddle, Pump House, Green Beret) are already hammered within an hour of opening in the morning. And you want to put MORE people down those trails? If you want to ride the tram, man up and get there early, then forget it the rest of the day.
Does the tram pay for itself directly? Hell no, but it is a pretty cool component of the overall experience that Jay Peak has become. Additionally, it is way more flexible than a chairlift when it come to off-season use (e.g. hourly runs vs running all day long).


----------



## moresnow (Apr 28, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> I live in New England and could not locate Hunter on a map.



It's easy. Just type Hunter mountain into the search box.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

drjeff said:


> And yet Jackson spent what?? 15 million if I recall correctly, a few years ago to replace the tram after outcry from many over the alternative replacement plans which was what a Gondola and a chair?? Or 2 gondolas?? I can't remember the exact details, but do recall that those options were cheaper than a new tram, but the public outcry over removing a truly iconic lift was compelling enough for them to spend the extra cash for the new tram
> 
> Let's be honest in the East, for truly high recognition lifts, the kind that even non skiers have likely seen pictures of, Mad River's Single and Jay's Tram (IMHO more so than Cannon's tram) are on that short list



Try $30 mill


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Sons of Thunder (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Too many of you guys are focusing on the tree and are missing the rest of the forest.
> The tram isn't a money maker by itself. Technically, it is more of a carnival ride. In the off-season it is an ancillary attraction for hotel guests and other tourists that come to Jay for other activities (water park, golf, hockey, and especially weddings). In the fall, people do come to Jay specifically to ride the tram for fall foliage viewing. In the winter it is definitely a bottle neck for those wanting to get to the summit. But I'll reiterate my argument that the terrain at the summit cannot support the number of skiers a lift would drop off up there. The advanced trails (Face, Chutes, Saddle, Pump House, Green Beret) are already hammered within an hour of opening in the morning. And you want to put MORE people down those trails? If you want to ride the tram, man up and get there early, then forget it the rest of the day.
> Does the tram pay for itself directly? Hell no, but it is a pretty cool component of the overall experience that Jay Peak has become. Additionally, it is way more flexible than a chairlift when it come to off-season use (e.g. hourly runs vs running all day long).



I'll admit I've never been to Jay but this seems to hit the nail on the head. Especially if summer weddings at the summit are a big money maker (70 weddings over the course of just a couple months!) then the Tram could pay for itself even when it doesn't. 

How would a DJ or photographer take a HSQ to the summit with their equipment? And would you want your wedding guests taking a chairlift in the middle of summer in full formal attire? It's part of the whole experience that Jay is trying to provide. When I was planning my trip to Jay my daughter, who loves skiing to begin with, was seriously bummed when she heard the Tram was closed. She's been on other chairlifts and once you've been on one there isn't much special about getting on another.

Too many of you are looking at this through the perspective of a seasoned skiier/rider only. Not that I blame you given this forum's theme, but diversification is the name of the game for mountain resorts to survive now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Does the tram pay for itself directly? Hell no, but it is a pretty cool component of the overall experience that Jay Peak has become.


Well said.  It makes Jay unique, even if as skiers we see its inefficiency.


----------



## abc (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Too many of you guys are focusing on the tree and are missing the rest of the forest.





Sons of Thunder said:


> Too many of you are looking at this through the perspective of a seasoned skiier/rider only. Not that I blame you given this forum's theme, but diversification is the name of the game for mountain resorts to survive now.





VTKilarney said:


> Well said. It makes Jay unique, even if as skiers we see its inefficiency.


Well said indeed. I'm glad there're still many who can see beyond just the patch of snow under some people's nose.  

Sadly, that also speaks poorly of Burke. There's really nothing unique about Burke to attract sizable customers, winter or summer. So the new Burke hotel is quite likely to become a pink elephant.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

abc said:


> Well said indeed. I'm glad there're still many who can see beyond just the patch of snow under some people's nose.
> 
> Sadly, that also speaks poorly of Burke. There's really nothing unique about Burke to attract sizable customers, winter or summer. So the new Burke hotel is quite likely to become a pink elephant.



Um, there is plenty of unique about Burke.  There is this thing called the Kingdom Trails that is quite a hit for the summer.  As to the winter, the skiing is pretty damn good.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 28, 2016)

Sons of Thunder said:


> And would you want your wedding guests taking a chairlift in the middle of summer in full formal attire?



There was a wedding taking place at the top of Gate House last summer at Sugarbush at the same time as the Brew-Grass Fest, so I saw exactly that. It actually makes for some pretty cool pictures with people all dressed up on a chair lift.

*Note* - Don't take my above comment to mean I favor any particular point of view with regards to Jay's Tram. I have no real personal opinion on the matter and have seen some good/interesting comments from both sides.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 28, 2016)

moresnow said:


> It's easy. Just type Hunter mountain into the search box.



Yes!

1) this is exactly what I do for a living now

2) without Peaks advertising or cheating I couldn't point to Hunter either. For the New England skier that place might as well be in Florida.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## AdironRider (Apr 28, 2016)

30 mill is the number. 

There was no debate about replacing the tram, but ownership wanted the Feds to kick in cash as the Tram is required to access certain critical federal communications equipment at the top of the mountain. 

There are also regulations on the amount of people that are physically allowed to be at the top of Rendezvous, regulations which do not exist at Jay. Hence why the trams replacement was only a double for the two years it was being replaced. 

Comparing Jackson to Jay's tram is laughable in the first place though. You can think Jay is a competitor to the cream of the crop, not just nationally, but internationally, everyone else will continue to think you are delusional.


----------



## ChicoKat (Apr 28, 2016)

Someone on the FOBM Facebook group posted this... 'I've just been told, at 8:30 this morning, Ary was escorted off the property'


----------



## River19 (Apr 28, 2016)

Being reporting on FB that Ary was walked this morning......thank God !!!!


----------



## ChicoKat (Apr 28, 2016)

The woman who reported this on FOBM is using the 'The gals at E. Burke Market don't lie' as her credible source. So might need to wait for confirmation on this one.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 28, 2016)

ChicoKat said:


> Someone on the FOBM Facebook group posted this... 'I've just been told, at 8:30 this morning, Ary was escorted off the property'



Who is ordering the keg?


----------



## benski (Apr 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> There was a wedding taking place at the top of Gate House last summer at Sugarbush at the same time as the Brew-Grass Fest, so I saw exactly that. It actually makes for some pretty cool pictures with people all dressed up on a chair lift.
> 
> *Note* - Don't take my above comment to mean I favor any particular point of view with regards to Jay's Tram. I have no real personal opinion on the matter and have seen some good/interesting comments from both sides.



They actually promote their weddings with a photo of a couple riding a lift. I am pretty sure there is a picture in the lodge of a couple in full wedding attire riding the lift. 
http://www.sugarbush.com/groups/weddings/


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> There was a wedding taking place at the top of Gate House last summer at Sugarbush at the same time as the Brew-Grass Fest, so I saw exactly that. It actually makes for some pretty cool pictures with people all dressed up on a chair lift.
> 
> *Note* - Don't take my above comment to mean I favor any particular point of view with regards to Jay's Tram. I have no real personal opinion on the matter and have seen some good/interesting comments from both sides.


Did it happen to be this couple.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 28, 2016)

Official Announcement the Q Jr is gone just on VPR!


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Official Announcement just on VPR!



Just got confirmation on VPR that Ary Quiros is no longer employed at Burke and has left.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Did it happen to be this couple.



Hah...No. Win's wedding was a year or 2 prior to this past summer.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> There was no debate about replacing the tram, but *ownership wanted the Feds to kick in cash as the Tram is required to access certain critical federal communications equipment at the top of the mountain. *



I'm sure they'll have great success in that endeavor.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

Quitting on Quiros Quickly should help Quell, Quench, & Quiet the Quarreling, Quipping & Quacking from those annoyed with the QBurke Quandary & Quagmire.


----------



## Abubob (Apr 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got confirmation on VPR that Ary Quiros is no longer employed at Burke and has left.


----------



## River19 (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Quitting on Quiros Quickly should help Quell, Quench, & Quiet the Quarreling, Quipping & Quacking from those annoyed with the QBurke Quandary & Quagmire.



I see what you did there......Qclever......


----------



## Mapnut (Apr 28, 2016)

Something had to be done with all those now surplus Qs.

Couldn't just put them in a queue.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 28, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> Something had to be done with all those now surplus Qs.
> 
> Couldn't just put them in a queue.



That's Quite enough. Quiet!


----------



## Abubob (Apr 28, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> Something had to be done with all those now surplus Qs.
> 
> Couldn't just put them in a queue.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

via Imgflip Meme Maker


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> Something had to be done with all those now surplus Qs.
> 
> Couldn't just put them in a queue.



Ugh.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 28, 2016)

So where does this leave the status of Stenger's kids?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So where does this leave the status of Stenger's kids?



Still employed.  They specifically addressed them.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Still employed.



To be fair, I haven't heard of anyone complaining that Stenger's kids are poor at their jobs.  While they certainly benefited from nepotism, they don't appear to have done any actual damage.  Little Ary is in a whole different boat.


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 28, 2016)

No more Qtopia!

QUEUETOPIA – any place in which there are frequent Q's (coined by Winston Churchill).


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm sure they'll have great success in that endeavor.



They didn't if memory serves.


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 28, 2016)

Maybe today be good time to end this depression threads and start a positive one now officially q family is gone.I f feel everyone pain and get it totally maybe Lasszo will buy Burke .

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## yeggous (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> To be fair, I haven't heard of anyone complaining that Stenger's kids are poor at their jobs.  While they certainly benefited from nepotism, they don't appear to have done any actual damage.  Little Ary is in a whole different boat.



Any update on whether the kids are okay? It's true that I haven't heard anything negative about them. No need to punish them for the sins of their father. On the other hand, Ary has plenty of his own sins.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 28, 2016)

They will probably resign at somepoint soon.  Hard to be respected by your peers when your father is running a Ponzi scheme and ruins the company.  It's too bad if they are innocent but it is guilt by association.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 28, 2016)

tumbler said:


> They will probably resign at somepoint soon.  Hard to be respected by your peers when your father is running a Ponzi scheme and ruins the company.  It's too bad if they are innocent but it is guilt by association.




I always thought the saddest part of the Madoff scheme was the end result on his kids. I think 2 of them have committed suicide. I don't know if they knew or not, I was under the impression they weren't, but it was a sad ending. 

I personally hate how in crimes like this everyone assumes the whole family is in on it. Do you talk to your Dad about every business deal you are part of? Would you tell your kids you were running a ponzi scheme? Doubtful on both accounts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

Whoever thought that, _"Vermont was somehow above the corruption and sleazery of the rest of the country"_, is one naive millennial.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

.


----------



## abc (Apr 28, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> I always thought the saddest part of the Madoff scheme was the end result on his kids. I think 2 of them have committed suicide. I don't know if they knew or not, I was under the impression they weren't, but it was a sad ending.
> 
> I personally hate how in crimes like this everyone assumes the whole family is in on it. Do you talk to your Dad about every business deal you are part of? Would you tell your kids you were running a ponzi scheme? Doubtful on both accounts.


I'm a little less charitable. I think the kids at least suspected that. You can't work in your Dad's company without paying attention to how the business is REALLY doing. 

If I were a trader and my trades and the rest of the desk was losing money, but the overall portfolio was declaring profit, I'd love to find out where the huge profit is coming from, because I want to be working there! And if I'm the son of the owner, I'd ask Dad if I can spend some time working in the profitable part of the company so I learn what works. 

But if I talk to the traders in that supposedly "hugely profitable" department and they didn't make a killing, I'd be suspicious some foul play and let Dad know about it. What's Dad going to say? Not to worry? I got it under control, but I'm not letting you know my technique even though you'll be inheriting the business some day?  

Though that doesn't mean they were in any position to change their Dad's mind on continuing the scheme. So in the eye of law, they would be innocent. Just not morally innocent because I think they knew. 

It's hard to imagine how I feel if find out my family member/love one had broken the law and plan to continue doing so.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 20086
> 
> 
> .



That looks awkward


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 28, 2016)

Ballsy... either he's really innocent or he's so far into his lies there is no other option.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 28, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Ballsy... either he's really innocent or he's so far into his lies there is no other option.



He's has always believed that he is the consummate salesman.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

One of the common features of many Ponzi Schemes, is an almost totalitarian leader who is "strong" and maintains near complete control over everything, lots of micromanagement over financials, surrounding himself with either friendlies or yes men/women who do not question their "intelligent" and often charismatic leader.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 28, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> [/ATTACH]
> 
> 
> Some. Balls.  That's really astounding.


----------



## River19 (Apr 29, 2016)

I commend Stenger on the size of his pair.......but I don't think there is enough lipstick to make this pig look pretty again.


----------



## kingdom-tele (Apr 29, 2016)

He has nothing better to do. One delusion down, time to move on to the next.


----------



## abc (Apr 29, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Ballsy... either he's really innocent or he's so far into his lies there is no other option.


I vote for the latter. 

Just ask Madoff.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 29, 2016)

A quote from the new guy running Burke from today's Caledonian Record:


> “Ary has agreed to leave our employment,” said Olson. “He left on very good terms. There was something I read today on Facebook that he left under guard and it didn’t happen. He’s been nothing but gracious with us. He’s giving us all the information we’re requiring - even volunteered to work for free to help solve the issues. And so, I think he’s been trying to do the right things. But that issue has also been taken care of.”



He volunteered to work for free??????  Do you think that he was just being charitable or did he want to be a fox in the henhouse?  Either way, you know you aren't wanted when you offer to work for free and are still shown the door.


----------



## KingdomBC (Apr 29, 2016)

Very diplomatic, but he was never "there" on good terms.  His sole mission was to sever ties with the community and go it alone.  He alone is the reason that service, morale, and the overall atmosphere surrounding what had always make Burke great suffered.  I'm delighted to hear that the management company let him go, and unfortunately understand the "saving face" way in which they approached it.  While it would have been great to blast him back to Miami by way of circus cannon, I applaud the receiver's tact in an otherwise delicate situation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2016)

KingdomBC said:


> Very diplomatic, but he was never "there" on good terms.  His sole mission was to sever ties with the community and go it alone.  He alone is the reason that service, morale, and the overall atmosphere surrounding what had always make Burke great suffered.  I'm delighted to hear that the management company let him go, and unfortunately understand the "saving face" way in which they approached it.  While it would have been great to blast him back to Miami by way of circus cannon, I applaud the receiver's tact in an otherwise delicate situation.



Spot on


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 29, 2016)

Perhaps these guys helping is an attempt at mitigating sentencing.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 29, 2016)

abc said:


> I vote for the latter.
> 
> Just ask Madoff.



Agreed.  

Often once the "jig is up", fraudsters act bombastically, desperately attempting to convey an innocence and legitimacy, and given the circumstances, attending a Chamber of Commerce meeting (I still cant believe this, lol) sounds like someone's sarcastic joke at this point, rather than actual reality.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 29, 2016)

Stenger can act as naive as he wants.  But what he can't do is make the feds forget that they (allegedly) have an email trail going back as far as 2010 showing that Stenger was well aware that his business was diverting EB-5 funds inappropriately.  

The fact that this information is out there, and yet Stenger maintains that he had no clue - suggests that Stenger believes that we are all idiots.

There is a lot to like about Stenger.  But if the allegations are true, he was a long-time knowing accomplice to the theft of millions of dollars.


----------



## abc (Apr 29, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The fact that this information is out there, and yet Stenger maintains that he had no clue - suggests that *Stenger believes that we are all idiots*.


Of course he thinks everybody else are idiots! 

He can't run a scam if he believe his victims are as smart as himself.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The fact that this information is out there, and yet Stenger maintains that he had no clue - suggests that Stenger believes that we are all idiots.



This!

There is NOTHING to like about a total fraud.


----------



## steamboat1 (Apr 29, 2016)

Creditors Get In Line As Jay Peak Development Scandal Unfolds


http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-908a0eadb4-286323177


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 29, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> A quote from the new guy running Burke from today's Caledonian Record:
> 
> 
> He volunteered to work for free??????  Do you think that he was just being charitable or did he want to be a fox in the henhouse?  Either way, you know you aren't wanted when you offer to work for free and are still shown the door.



I wonder what his severance package looks like.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2016)

Jerry Davis, and other contractors, speak to WCAX:

http://www.wcax.com/story/31852814/will-contractors-lose-millions-after-alleged-massive-fraud-in-nek


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2016)

Hush money:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/30/investor-says-stenger-cut-him-a-special-deal/

But Stenger says he knew nothing...


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2016)

Quiros didn't know that the contractor could not legally withhold the certificate of occupancy.  He could have had the hotel open.  

http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/30/burke-now-in-full-control-of-sec-receiver/

Within one day of taking over the hotel the receiver got the certificate.


----------



## chrisinvermont (Apr 30, 2016)

It's going to get interesting for Davis and Peak CM.  I'm quite sure that during the Madoff unwinding that "profits" that were paid to some investors were clawed back.  It looks like the state already had some issues with Davis's alleged costs and once goldberg and crew audit all of the projects I bet there will be a lot more.  I think it's a safe bet that with all of the no bid contracts, Davis has padded  and inflated numbers.  Here's hoping for a Peak CM clawback.  Oh yeah, electric Mike as well.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 30, 2016)

chrisinvermont said:


> It's going to get interesting for Davis and Peak CM.  I'm quite sure that during the Madoff unwinding that "profits" that were paid to some investors were clawed back.  It looks like the state already had some issues with Davis's alleged costs and once goldberg and crew audit all of the projects I bet there will be a lot more.  I think it's a safe bet that with all of the no bid contracts, Davis has padded  and inflated numbers.  Here's hoping for a Peak CM clawback.  Oh yeah, electric Mike as well.



This is an SEC action to protect the investors, not necessarily creditors. The receiver has made it clear there is a new sheriff in town. Crony contractors will be way down on the list despite whining and political pressure. Legitimate subs who can exactly substantiate their billing to competitive rates and costs will stand a chance to get something in the end. They had better move on though because unless they are needed for ongoing work or operations, they are at the end of a long line.


----------



## SkiingInABlueDream (Apr 30, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Quiros didn't know that the contractor could not legally withhold the certificate of occupancy.  He could have had the hotel open.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/30/burke-now-in-full-control-of-sec-receiver/
> 
> Within one day of taking over the hotel the receiver got the certificate.



Missed opportunity. This could've been yet another whole new thread!:razz:


----------



## Tin (Apr 30, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Quiros didn't know that the contractor could not legally withhold the certificate of occupancy.  He could have had the hotel open.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/04/30/burke-now-in-full-control-of-sec-receiver/
> 
> Within one day of taking over the hotel the receiver got the certificate.



We can say how "dumb" they were all we want, fact is they were able to obtain millions of dollars and allegedly able to siphon off tens of millions for their own personal use. They are not dumb, they were just "dumb enough" to get caught. These guys had a plan and there are other strategic reasons why the hotel did not open other than a certificate. If the feds can figure out why exactly, this will be the foundation for the criminal fraud and conspiracy charges that may come.


----------



## abc (Apr 30, 2016)

Tin said:


> We can say how "dumb" they were all we want, fact is they were able to obtain millions of dollars and allegedly able to siphon off tens of millions for their own personal use. They are not dumb, they were just "dumb enough" to get caught.


Anybody can go rob a bank. It's the one who can get away without getting caught that are "smart". The really smart ones? OWN the bank!

There're gazilion ways to make money. But there're even more people who're trying each and everyone of those ways, legally. It's only when those who aren't smart enough to make money the legal way they would attempt criminal ways. Being caught IS the dumbest!


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 30, 2016)

abc said:


> Anybody can go rob a bank. It's the one who can get away without getting caught that are "smart". The really smart ones? OWN the bank!
> 
> There're gazilion ways to make money. But there're even more people who're trying each and everyone of those ways, legally. It's only when those who aren't smart enough to make money the legal way they would attempt criminal ways. Being caught IS the dumbest!



I don't follow the logic or train of thought either


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2016)

> *The letter “Q” was added to Burke Mountain when Quiros took over the  resort in 2012 and is affixed to beds*, fireplaces and signs.



Beds?


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> The receiver has made it clear there is a new sheriff in town.* Crony contractors will be way down on the list *despite whining and political pressure. Legitimate subs who can exactly substantiate their billing to competitive rates and costs will stand a chance to get something in the end.



As it should be.  What's sad is if you're the grunt construction worker who may be without an employer if they go out of business.  I dont know how "all encompassing" the SEC investigation is, but frankly, one would hope the contractor getting all these high-value, no-bid jobs, should be thoroughly investigated as well.



Tin said:


> *We can say how "dumb" they were all we want, fact is they were able to obtain millions of dollars and allegedly able to siphon off tens of millions for their own personal use. They are not dumb, they were just "dumb enough" to get caught. *




No, it was dumb.

They took WAY too much money out, WAY too soon.  Quiros made it near impossible to NOT get caught.

And in the immortal words of Shania Twain, tricking government employees and politicians dont impress me much.  Frankly, if Quiros just stole the $2 Million for the NYC real estate, I'm highly confident he would have gotten away with it by papering-over invoices given the enormous scope of the sums involved here, and the fact State of Vermont was lying and not monitoring his finances at all (which Stenger and Quiros knew). 

 Some time ago, before this news of the Ponzi Scheme broke, I had mentioned that it wouldn't even shock me if organized crime is involved here at some level, and it still wouldnt shock me in the least if a few years from now we learn that was the case.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2016)

> _*The resorts, under Stenger and Quiros, were so focused on development  that there was little emphasis on efficient operations*_



FYI, to the numerous people arguing with me circa 2011 & 2012 (you know who you are), please see above.


----------



## abc (May 1, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Some time ago, before this news of the Ponzi Scheme broke, I had mentioned that it wouldn't even shock me if organized crime is involved here at some level, and it still wouldnt shock me in the least if a few years from now we learn that was the case.


Madoff's scheme didn't seem to involve any organized crime. 

Consider where the victims are coming from, I'm not sure it's a given one way or the other


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

Good article.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Friends of Burke.  The energy behind the Facebook page was primarily to get rid of Quiros.  While the Facebook group was not the cause of Quiros' departure, he is nonetheless gone.  The big question is what role does the group have going forward.  Let's be honest, whoever outlays the significant amount of capital for the hotel and ski area is going to have their own plan.  This isn't going to be like Big Tupper.  

Friends of Burke was originally a Facebook page and nothing more until someone decided to appoint them self as the "executive director" of the organization.  (I guess titles are cheap these days.)  At about the same time several self-appointed "directors" popped up.  This was all done in secret, with absolutely no suggestion that it was happening or request for input from the members of the Facebook page.

If the group is to act as a liaison with the community, I am skeptical that the current leadership is the best to accomplish that.  I find it very interesting that the group states that the represent the Burke community, yet only 22% of the self-appointed directors live within a 60 mile radius of Burke Mountain, and only 11% live within Caledonia County itself.  Out of the gate there is a MAJOR disconnect with the local community.  Hopefully it will all work out in the long run - but it's going to take the involvement of more locals if they are going to have any credibility as being representatives of the community.

I seem to recall what happened the last time leadership lost a strong bond with the local community.  Sadly, the self-appointed directors of FOB chose to repeat history.  A real opportunity has been missed.  Again, I am sure that everyone is well intentioned.  But it's sad to see local residents get the shaft yet again.  This seems to be a recurring pattern at Burke.

I posted essentially these same thoughts on the group's Facebook page.  To date I have had 78 people private message me in support.  So there is definitely some frustration out of the gate.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Good article.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Friends of Burke.  The energy behind the Facebook page was primarily to get rid of Quiros.  While the Facebook group was not the cause of Quiros' departure, he is nonetheless gone.  The big question is what role does the group have going forward.  Let's be honest, whoever outlays the significant amount of capital for the hotel and ski area is going to have their own plan.  This isn't going to be like Big Tupper.
> 
> Friends of Burke was originally a Facebook page and nothing more until someone decided to appoint them self as the "executive director" of the organization.  (I guess titles are cheap these days.)  At about the same time several self-appointed "directors" popped up.  This was all done in secret, with absolutely no suggestion that it was happening or request for input from the members of the Facebook page.
> 
> ...



Michael Sher, a longtime Burke skier, started the FB page and the group.  As he says on the FB page, he has formed a non-profit and I know that he has spent several thousand dollars of his own money to form the non-profit.  From what I know he invited people he knew to help him with their time and money to form the entity and to help get the ball rolling.  They were not "self-appointed."  The executive director is an NEK native and lives and works in East Burke.  She was selected by Sher because of her ability to sink a lot of time talking to folks at BMA, KT, Burke Mountain, the Town, and other groups.  She has already done a lot including appearing on VPR last week.  

From what I saw on Friday, there were three people out of 3,700 who publicly complained about these issues.  And it was in a thread that was asking for people to volunteer to help and to contact Sher.    

Ultimately if you have a problem with the organization you should direct that to Michael Sher--or as the old adage goes, if you like something, tell folks.  If you don't, tell the owner/person you have an issue with.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

I'm content to just let the organization go its course.  I did make a suggestion that there be a membership mechanism and that the actual membership decides who their public voice should be.  This was summarily rejected.   

As I said, I am sure that folks are well intended, including the executive director even if she is in direct competition with the hotel.  If they didn't feel the need to include a meaningful leadership component of locals it's their playground and their ball.  Hopefully it's successful.

My only genuine complaint is their assertion that they speak on behalf of the Facebook group members.  They don't.  I view it as two separate groups at this point.  That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as people are honest about their underlying authority.  I could appoint myself to be the spokesman for the NBA owners. But unless they actually select me as their spokesman my saying it doesn't make it true.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm content to just let the organization go its course.



Doesn't seem like it from your post.  



> I did make a suggestion that there be a membership mechanism and that the actual membership decides who their public voice should be.  This was summarily rejected.



By Sher?  And you do realize that it would be nearly impossible to have 3,700 people run an organization like that, yes?   FWIW the non-profit is just forming and they are trying to figure out how to run it and make "members", etc.  I imagine that down the road "members" will vote and participate on a certain level.  The Facebook Group is not the be-all-end-all.    



> As I said, I am sure that folks are well intended.  If they didn't feel the need to include a meaningful leadership component of locals it's their playground and their ball.  Hopefully it's successful.



From what I have seen there is a significant number of "locals" involved at the moment.  Ford Hubbard, the Executive Director, a ski instructor, and three second home owners who are in the area.  

It just seems like you are coming to this forum to vent your concerns when you could be directing them to Sher or the Executive Director.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> By Sher?  And you do realize that it would be nearly impossible to have 3,700 people run an organization like that, yes?


Who said anything about 3,700 people running it?  All I said was that the people who run it should be selected by more than just themselves if they claim to speak on behalf of those 3,700 people.  That seems hardly contentious.  I'm now up to 86 private messages expressing agreement.  




thetrailboss said:


> From what I have seen there is a significant number of "locals" involved at the moment.  Ford Hubbard, the Executive Director, a ski instructor, and three second home owners who are in the area.


Your bar is quite low.  The numbers don't lie.  Only 22% of the directors live within 60 miles and only one lives in the same county as Burke Mountain. 



thetrailboss said:


> It just seems like you are coming to this forum to vent your concerns when you could be directing them to Sher or the Executive Director.


And you've never come here to vent your frustration with things at Burke, such as Ary Jr.?  Did you limit the airing of your concerns solely with him?  What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander.

Again, I wish the organization the best.  But I'm also honest about what it is and what it isn't, and I'm just disappointed that an opportunity was lost.  That's all.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Who said anything about 3,700 people running it?  All I said was that the people who run it should be selected by more than just themselves if they claim to speak on behalf of those 3,700 people.  That seems hardly contentious.  I'm now up to 86 private messages expressing agreement.



You said you wanted the "members" to elect the directors.  There are no members because this thing is just forming.  And Sher selected the people he wanted.  They, again, were not "self-selected".  It seems like you are upset that he has not asked and just   Again, take it up with Sher or the Executive Director, not here.  



> Your bar is quite low.  The numbers don't lie.  Only 22% of the directors live within 60 miles and only one lives in the same county as Burke Mountain.



Sher selected the board.  From what I know they all have ties to the mountain.  And they are all working with him to get this thing going.   



> you've never come here to vent your frustration with things at Burke, such as Ary Jr.?  Did you limit the airing of your concerns solely with him?  What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander.



Never said that.  We all comment about mountain and with Q it was in particular because they were hostile with their customers.  Here, you are getting upset about an issue that THREE people publicly commented on in that Facebook Page--one guy was a self-professed "non-profit expert", another apparently has a beef with the group, and a third one just agreed.  It seems like you are one of a handful of folks really upset about this...which is nothing really.  



> Again, I wish the organization the best.  But I'm also honest about what it is and what it isn't, and I'm just disappointed that an opportunity was lost.  That's all.



Good.  Wish them the best, and move on.  It's clear that you have an ax to grind here for whatever reason if you have spent this much energy on this.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

I'm not at all upset and I've got no axe to grind.  You seem to be purposely ignoring my previous statement that I believe that everyone is well intentioned.  What you dismissively call an "axe" is merely my hope to see more local representation than 11% - especially for a group that holds itself out as being representative of the local community.  I don't think that's an absurd hope.  I've historically been a champion for local people and local organizations.  I haven't fled to another state, despite the fact that I'd be much more wealthy if I had taken advantage of some opportunities to do so.  I'm invested in the NEK and have staked my future on this area.  I believe in this area and most importantly its people.

As one of the most opinionated people on this forum, I'm perplexed that you would be taken aback at my having an opinion.  This is a forum, and a thread about Burke, right?

The group is evolving.  I fully respect that.  But it's first evolution has largely eschewed locals.  I just hope that it evolves from being dominated by non-local interests to more of a balance.  Call me old fashioned, but I've always seen balance as a positive.

But your point is well taken.  Let's move on.  I'm more than happy to respect your request.


----------



## fbrissette (May 1, 2016)

Sounds a lot like fighting for crumbs in a bread factory.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Sounds a lot like fighting for crumbs in a bread factory.



Very true.  Now that Ary's gone it's become a solution in search of a problem.

Since the group was started shortly before Ary was shown the door, I think a lot of people are confusing correlation with causation.

But it is well intended.

The hotel has changed things.  The new owner is going to have invested enough money that they are going to have to have their own business plan.  I can't blame them.  It's their tens of millions.  Not some 501(c)(3)’s.  I'm confident that any new owner will have the community's support, especially after what we've just been through.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2016)

abc said:


> *Madoff's scheme didn't seem to involve any organized crime. *



I never really followed-up on the Madoff debacle after the first few years, so I dont know what was found regarding organized crime (if any), but I do recall watching Markopolos testify on live TV that after he handed the SEC Madoff's head on a silver platter not once, but twice, and yet the government did nothing, he didn't push it a 3rd-time, because he felt it highly likely the Russian mafia and possibly South American baddies were involved, and he was worried he could be outed and killed due to his realization via their non-handling of his smoking-gun evidence on Madoff, that the SEC was either incompetent, or that worse perhaps someone high up at the SEC was protecting Madoff and was in on the crime.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

Here is the list of "directors" as reported by the founder of the Friends of Burke Facebook page.  The list has been up for a couple of days, but in case anyone missed it I thought that I would post it here so these people can be recognized and given thanks.  I know that there is at least one error that has persisted regarding residence, but the names are correct.



> Ford Hubbard, East Burke, VT; Paul Marcus, Concord, VT; Patty Frechette, White River Jct., VT; Michael Sher, Brookline, MA and East Topsham, VT; Tom Rutledge, Concord, MA and East Burke, VT; Mimi Rutledge, Concord, MA and East Burke, VT; Peter Trojano, Hingham, MA and East Burke, VT; and Jason Yarrington, Salem, MA and East Burke, VT.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2016)

Why the quotations around directors?


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Why the quotations around directors?



I was just distinguishing them from the executive director.  I've never claimed to be a grammatical whiz.


----------



## abc (May 1, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I never really followed-up on the Madoff debacle after the first few years, so I dont know what was found regarding organized crime (if any), but I do recall watching Markopolos testify on live TV that after he handed the SEC Madoff's head on a silver platter not once, but twice, and yet the government did nothing, he didn't push it a 3rd-time, because he felt it highly likely the Russian mafia and possibly South American baddies were involved, and he was worried he could be outed and killed due to his realization via their non-handling of his smoking-gun evidence on Madoff, that the SEC was either incompetent, or that worse perhaps someone high up at the SEC was protecting Madoff and was in on the crime.


Except the SEC did move on Madoff. It just took longer than the whistle blower would believe it should take. The same in the Jay/Burke case.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2016)

abc said:


> Except the SEC did move on Madoff.It just took longer than the whistle blower would believe it should take.The same in the Jay/Burke case.



Incorrect.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I was just distinguishing them from the executive director.  I've never claimed to be a grammatical whiz.



I just found it a little odd for you to make several posts being not only critical of the selection process, but also who was selected as directors and then follow up that sequence of posts with "directors" in quotations and asking folks to thank them.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I just found it a little odd for you to make several posts being not only critical of the selection process, but also who was selected as directors and then follow up that sequence of posts with "directors" in quotations and asking folks to thank them.


Just a coincidence.  I've never questioned whatsoever that these people are the directors.  My issue is with the selection process as a system and not the actual people.  Perhaps I should have been more clear about that.  These people really do deserve our thanks - especially when you take into account the pay.  

Well... with one exception.  One director has known for at least a couple of days that their residence is misrepresented to suggest that they have a local residential presence and they've done nothing publicly to correct that misrepresentation.  I definitely don't respect that.  It's important that people have accurate information and I just don't understand persisting in an inaccuracy that could have been corrected so easily.  It's certainly not the start that I would choose.  But maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill.  I think the true locals, myself included, are sensitive right now to outsiders making an imprint on the operation of the mountain.  The error regarding residency can be measured in thousands of miles (a hair over 2,000 to be exact), so it's not trivial for a group that purports to represent local interests.


----------



## 56fish (May 1, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Sounds a lot like fighting for crumbs in a bread factory.


 +1


----------



## abc (May 1, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Incorrect.


Well, I'll give you a couple years to say "I've said... and no one believed me"!:roll:


----------



## steamboat1 (May 1, 2016)

*VTKilarney*







						 				On Time Out 

?????????????????


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2016)

abc said:


> Well, I'll give you a couple years to say "I've said... and no one believed me"!:roll:



BG sniffed this one a long time ago.  If you go to the first few posts in the Burke thread you will see that I was supportive. I liked Stenger. Still in shock. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (May 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *VTKilarney*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't really see that VTK said anything wrong here to warrant that unless something was changed/deleted...


----------



## freeski (May 2, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I don't really see that VTK said anything wrong here to warrant that unless something was changed/deleted...


He used quotes incorrectly. If something was deleted good policy would dictate an explanation to the board.


----------



## fbrissette (May 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *VTKilarney*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same here.  Don't understand.


----------



## Edd (May 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *VTKilarney*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What leads you to think that?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 2, 2016)

It is very rare that a member is disciplined on this site and when it happens it is the business of the member and moderator involved.  Out of respect of the privacy of those involved I will only say that if there doesn't appear to be a problem in the public forum, then the issue occurred in private.  

Moving on.....


----------



## Smellytele (May 2, 2016)

Maybe the trailboss and him got in a pissing match.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe the trailboss and him got in a pissing match.


Bingo


----------



## Smellytele (May 2, 2016)

Nice my post was edited - this will probably be deleted


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Nice my post was edited - this will probably be deleted



I sent you a private message explaining why, ST.


----------



## abc (May 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> BG sniffed this one a long time ago.  If you go to the first few posts in the Burke thread you will see that I was supportive. I liked Stenger. Still in shock.


Did he "sniff out" the organized crime angle in Madoff's scheme too? Now that it's "several years" after, and so far nothing came out.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

abc said:


> Did he "sniff out" the organized crime angle in Madoff's scheme too? Now that it's "several years" after, and so far nothing came out.



Yeah, I don't know about that.  The PBS Frontline episode on Madoff is pretty interesting.  In a lot of ways Q had similar traits--laying in the shadows, not wanting to draw attention to himself, being very secretive about how he managed money, and being able to mislead regulators.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 2, 2016)

abc said:


> Did he "sniff out" the organized crime angle in Madoff's scheme too? Now that it's "several years" after, and so far nothing came out.



Huh?

Reread what I wrote, as you're obviously missing something given I clearly stated I don't know whether a tie-in to organized crime was ever discovered with Madoff.



> *I never really followed-up on the Madoff debacle after the first few  years, so I dont know what was found regarding organized crime (if any),  but I do recall watching Markopolos testify on live TV that after he  handed the SEC Madoff's head on a silver platter not once, but twice,  and yet the government did nothing, he didn't push it a 3rd-time,  because he felt it highly likely the Russian mafia and possibly South  American baddies were involved, and he was worried he could be outed and  killed due to his realization via their non-handling of his smoking-gun  evidence on Madoff, that the SEC was either incompetent, or that worse  perhaps someone high up at the SEC was protecting Madoff and was in on  the crime.*


----------



## abc (May 2, 2016)

I read your post as you still "believe" there is likely organized connection, despite no evidence were ever discovered and the scheme is now several years behind us.


----------



## Highway Star (May 2, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *vtkilarney*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clearly, for being a dingbat.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 2, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> Clearly, for being a dingbat.



If there are penalties for that, you would have been sentenced to the Electric Chair.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 2, 2016)

abc said:


> I read your post as you still "believe" there is likely organized connection, despite no evidence were ever discovered and the scheme is now several years behind us.



No, that's not what I wrote.   What I wrote (and it seems pretty clearly written to me) is that I don't know one way or the other if organized crime was ever involved with Madoff.  



MEtoVTSkier said:


> If there are penalties for that, you would have been sentenced to the Electric Chair.



ZING!


----------



## SkiFanE (May 2, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, that's not what I wrote.   What I wrote (and it seems pretty clearly written to me) is that I don't know one way or the other if organized crime was ever involved with Madoff.
> 
> 
> 
> ZING!


I'm just peaking at this thread on page 72, sorry I don't have the in depth history. But a friend of mine, who basically has same job as Bernie but on a teeny tiny scale (lol) swears there was an inside connection - just because he's 100% certain he'd have been caught by SEC, as the normal audits by the regulators he'd always get would have bagged Bernie (friend goes on about FINRA or whatever and my eyes glaze...). But he's never been able to figure out how he got away with it without help, or he's missing some piece of the story (possible).


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 2, 2016)

More post deletions?  :roll:


----------



## steamboat1 (May 2, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> More post deletions?  :roll:


Yep


----------



## abc (May 2, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, that's not what I wrote.   What I wrote (and it seems pretty clearly written to me) is that I don't know one way or the other if organized crime was ever involved with Madoff.


Look, this whole side track started when you suggest the Jya/Burke fiasco have organized crime connect. You went to say all ponzi schemes have to have organized crime connection in order to pull it off. 

So it's only natural the Madoff affair, the biggest Ponzi scheme of today, has to have organized crime connection. Otherwise, your little theory would fall apart. 

To say you don't know if the Madoff affair has organized crime connection or not, there goes your supporting evidence of organized crime connection to Ponzi schemes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 2, 2016)

abc said:


> Look, this whole side track started when *you suggest the Jya/Burke fiasco have organized crime connect. *



FALSE.

Months back I originally said,_ "it wouldn't surprise me_ (exact phrase used)_ in the least if it turns out that organized crime is_ _involved"_ given the sums involved, and the numerous unanswered questions and total lack of scrutiny (which I still think is possible), but I clearly didn't predict for certain or say that it "does" have to have organized crime involvement.



abc said:


> *You went to say all ponzi schemes have to have organized crime connection *in order to pull it off.



FALSE.

I never said that (in fact, that's a really dumb statement and makes absolutely no sense, especially to someone who knows something about financial fraud and works in finance).


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

abc said:


> Look, this whole side track started when you suggest the Jya/Burke fiasco have organized crime connect. You went to say all ponzi schemes have to have organized crime connection in order to pull it off.



I think I know what you are talking about here.  It is rumored, and it is not my rumor, that the previous owners of Jay Peak "may" have been involved in organized crime in Canada.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 3, 2016)

This article from todays globe leads me to believe that EB5 program isn't likely to end any time soon based on what's going on VT.  More oversight? Sure.  I don't think they'll ever get a handle on FTE calculations though.  How many FTEs does an urban apartment complex generate?  Probably not as many as a hotel complex.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...opportunity/0rwK4AiaTONeedVHHb0dPL/story.html


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> This article from todays globe leads me to believe that EB5 program isn't likely to end any time soon based on what's going on VT.  More oversight? Sure. * I don't think they'll ever get a handle on FTE calculations though.*  How many FTEs does an urban apartment complex generate?



By design; because if it did, then the EB-5 program would end.  

Oz falls only when the man behind the curtain is revealed to the masses.


----------



## mbedle (May 3, 2016)

Good reading on some new stuff posted at jaypeakreeceivership.com. Interesting to note that the total shortage to complete all phases of the EB-5 project is $69,000,000. That was based on data collected through September 30, 2015 and includes raising an additional 27 million from new investors in the biotech project.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 3, 2016)

http://www.wcax.com/story/31810782/kingdom-con-sharp-contrast-to-eb-5-success-stories

Most notably, Sugarbush's co-owner comments about how the EB-5 program worked there and his thoughts as to Jay and the red flags there.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.wcax.com/story/31810782/kingdom-con-sharp-contrast-to-eb-5-success-stories
> 
> Most notably, Sugarbush's co-owner comments about how the EB-5 program worked there and his thoughts as to Jay and the red flags there.


From the article: _From ski resorts to lawn equipment, another beneficiary of $12 million in EB-5 money is Vergennes-based Country Home Products. Company CEO Joe Perrotto says during the recession they needed the money for research and development to expand their line of yard care equipment and hang onto their workforce._
*"We fit under, at that time, what was called the troubled company program. So we didn't have the burden of job creation as much as job retention," he said.*
_Not only did they preserve all of the 135 jobs in Vergennes, but they've been able to add 10 jobs there, and grow it into the business it is today._


Sugarbush also fell under "the troubled company program" when they took $20m in EB-5 money so they didn't need to show job creation. They only needed to show job retention. They claim to have preserved/retained 400 full time jobs.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush also fell under "the troubled company program" when they took $20m in EB-5 money so* they didn't need to show job creation. *They only needed to show job retention. *They claim to have preserved/retained 400 full time jobs.*



A completely made up financial metric, that never existed prior to ARRA (American Recovery & Reinvestment Act of 2009), a.k.a. Obama's economic stimulus, and which facilitates boondoggles.  Economists mock and laugh at it.   

I have good inside knowledge of this, the boondoggle and misappropriation of almost $1 TRILLION in money from all of our paycheck's in the name of "stimulus" should be considered one of the great scandals of the last 100 years.  It's too much of a hot potato now because it's political, but 30 or 50 years from now, it will widely be considered one of the biggest failures and wastes of money in US history.  If I have grandkids, someday when the subject comes up I'll proudly tell them I refused to play a part in its' implementation.


----------



## Harvey (May 5, 2016)

benedictgomez said:


> a completely made up financial metric, that never existed prior to arra (american recovery & reinvestment act of 2009), a.k.a. Bush and obama's economic stimulus, and which facilitates boondoggles.  Economists mock and laugh at it.



fify


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> From the article: _From ski resorts to lawn equipment, another beneficiary of $12 million in EB-5 money is Vergennes-based Country Home Products. Company CEO Joe Perrotto says during the recession they needed the money for research and development to expand their line of yard care equipment and hang onto their workforce._
> *"We fit under, at that time, what was called the troubled company program. So we didn't have the burden of job creation as much as job retention," he said.*
> _Not only did they preserve all of the 135 jobs in Vergennes, but they've been able to add 10 jobs there, and grow it into the business it is today._
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure that Sugarbush's position was that if they did not get the EB-5 money that they would have to close.  No joke.  I will let you all be the judge of that claim.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> A completely made up financial metric, that never existed prior to ARRA (American Recovery & Reinvestment Act of 2009), a.k.a. Obama's economic stimulus, and which facilitates boondoggles.  Economists mock and laugh at it.
> 
> I have good inside knowledge of this, the boondoggle and misappropriation of almost $1 TRILLION in money from all of our paycheck's in the name of "stimulus" should be considered one of the great scandals of the last 100 years.  It's too much of a hot potato now because it's political, but 30 or 50 years from now, it will widely be considered one of the biggest failures and wastes of money in US history.  If I have grandkids, someday when the subject comes up I'll proudly tell them I refused to play a part in its' implementation.




Its disturbing how you use every thread and issue to further your own political views.  I dont know whether you are trying to convince yourself or others, but imho, it would be nice if you kept it to yourself.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am pretty sure that Sugarbush's position was that if they did not get the EB-5 money that they would have to close.  No joke.  I will let you all be the judge of that claim.



I can tell you this, when I started skiing there regularly about 15 years ago, the place was a ghost town.  there was no one there even on holidays it wasnt crowded.  the facilities were in shambles, the ski school and rentals were in a temporary structure and the resort had almost nothing in terms of real estate either to rent out or sell.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> From the article: _From ski resorts to lawn equipment, another beneficiary of $12 million in EB-5 money is Vergennes-based Country Home Products. Company CEO Joe Perrotto says during the recession they needed the money for research and development to expand their line of yard care equipment and hang onto their workforce._
> *"We fit under, at that time, what was called the troubled company program. So we didn't have the burden of job creation as much as job retention," he said.*
> _Not only did they preserve all of the 135 jobs in Vergennes, but they've been able to add 10 jobs there, and grow it into the business it is today._
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that's sure that's true with respect to sugarbush.  
Prior to the eb5 program many of the seasonal employees were kids from south america whereas afterwards, everyone is local.  It was my understanding that they were statisfying the job creation requirements of the program.


----------



## Newpylong (May 5, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> Its disturbing how you use every thread and issue to further your own political views.  I dont know whether you are trying to convince yourself or others, but imho, it would be nice if you kept it to yourself.



I was wondering whether I logged into the Drudge Report by mistake.


----------



## fbrissette (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> If I have grandkids, someday when the subject comes up



It's a safe bet that the subject won't come up with your grand-kids unless you bring it up, in which case they won't listen to you anyway, because they won't give a damn.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm not sure that's sure that's true with respect to sugarbush.
> Prior to the eb5 program many of the seasonal employees were kids from south america whereas afterwards, everyone is local.  It was my understanding that they were statisfying the job creation requirements of the program.



True, but my understanding was that SB was using the "job retention" aspect of the program.  And I have nothing against what they did at SB.  It looks like THAT was a win-win for everyone.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but my understanding was that SB was using the "job retention" aspect of the program.  And I have nothing against what they did at SB.  It looks like THAT was a win-win for everyone.



Wow, tough crowd in here today...

I agree, SB ended in right in the middle of the of the solid success category... neither minimal nor overwhelming, but good and solid right down the middle with them still improving more as time passes.

Oh, and I thought I had read somewhere too that they used the "job retention" metric... but I don't recollect where I had seen that.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Wow, tough crowd in here today...
> 
> I agree, SB ended in right in the middle of the of the solid success category... neither minimal nor overwhelming, but good and solid right down the middle with them still improving more as time passes.
> 
> Oh, and I thought I had read somewhere too that they used the "job retention" metric... but I don't recollect where I had seen that.



Why do you say tough crowd and quote me?


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> Its disturbing how you use every thread and issue to further your own political views.  I dont know whether you are trying to convince yourself or others, but imho, it would be nice if you kept it to yourself.



+1

And just to mark this moment. This is an exact example as to why I deleted your post a few years ago regarding Quiros and VT Democratic party donations.  You are arguably the most overtly political member of this community.  I deleted that post because I knew what the community reaction would be.  

This afternoon I read your post above and briefly considered deleting it for the exact same reason. I also considered correcting it to bipartisan truth like Harvey did. Instead I let it go as I and the rest of the moderators have no interest in intervening in such crap. We'd rather it just not happen.  Low and behold, look at the reaction you got. The community responded exactly how I felt.

 The forums rules on politics are quite clear.  Keep it to yourself. The next time you see something like economic policy as an opening to crowbar in your political leanings, just don't. Nobody cares.  This isn't the forum for it and hopefully never will be. 

Thanks


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

Harvey said:


> fify



I think you're confusing it with something else.



HowieT2 said:


> Its disturbing how you use every thread and issue to further your own political views.



I didn't bring it "up", and it's not a view, or even an "opinion", not to mention, it's literally relevant to the EB-5 discussion.  I dont care if you dont like what I said, and you can disagree with a heliocentric universe too if you like, but the dubious "jobs created and/or saved" metric was virtually unheard of pre-2009, certainly not used in any serious way, and while I dont exactly when it first came to be, it likely wasn't until this millennia.  It's an intellectually non-serious metric, solely intended for "boondoggle accounting", in other words, it's perfect for EB-5.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> This is an exact example as to why I deleted your post a few years ago regarding Quiros and VT Democratic party donations.



Total BS (as everyone has already told you).  

 That one's not even arguable on your part that somehow it could have been construed as anything but 100% relevant to the topic of the thread.  

In fact, as I recall, I intentionally kept that as nonpartison as possible, by posting a picture of the documents with only a little commentary pointing out how it's obvious Quiros is funding Vermont politicians (which we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt, was true).


----------



## JimG. (May 5, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> It's a safe bet that the subject won't come up with your grand-kids unless you bring it up, in which case they won't listen to you anyway, because they won't give a damn.



this.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2016)

Everyone can tell me what I was thinking? Yeah no. Not everyone pretends to know everything in the world about other people and their motivations like you do.  

You are FAR and away the most political member of this forum. I deleted it because the community reaction was going to be exactly the same as what just occurred here.  

People don't want to hear your politics, so just stop.


----------



## fbrissette (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> ...  It's an intellectually non-serious metric, solely intended for "boondoggle accounting", in other words, it's perfect for EB-5.



Don't worry.  The Donald will fix everything.


----------



## JimG. (May 5, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Don't worry.  The Donald will fix everything.



Now now, no pot stirring.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am pretty sure that Sugarbush's position was that if they did not get the EB-5 money that they would have to close.  No joke.  I will let you all be the judge of that claim.


That was before Summit Venture. Nothing to do with EB-5



HowieT2 said:


> It was my understanding that they were statisfying the job creation requirements of the program.


Google is your friend, look it up.


----------



## fbrissette (May 5, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Now now, no pot stirring.



Could not resist


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> People don't want to hear your politics, so just stop.



Sorry, I wont talk about the direct accounting experience I have with an EB-5 metric in the EB-5 thread, and how it's relevant to EB-5 shenanigans, after _someone else_ brings it up.   

The reality is, the only _"mistake"_ I made was mentioning Obama by name - had I said literally everything else, precisely the same, the few people with their panties in a bunch would nod their head and agree and would not have said a word. And. You. Know. It.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> . And. You. Know. It.



No.I.Don't.

And.neither.do.you. 

That is why it's best to just STFU regarding anything political per the rules of this forum. 

And it's not like I don't have my own political perspectives as well.  I'll discuss them elsewhere on the  internet if I feel the urge.  You need to learn to do the same. 

Thanks


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> That is why it's best to just STFU


Now if I said that to anyone I'd be gone.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

AZ moderating hypocrisy carries on.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Now if I said that to anyone I'd be gone.



No you wouldn't.  

But nice try playing the victim to free yourself up at trolling me and earlier this week another moderator.  

A+


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> That was before Summit Venture. Nothing to do with EB-5
> 
> 
> Google is your friend, look it up.



No, I'm pretty sure that was their argument. ASC argued that if they could not build a hotel then the resort would die during land development reviews.



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> no you wouldn't.
> 
> But nice try playing the victim to free yourself up at trolling me and earlier this week another moderator.
> 
> A+


stfu


----------



## deadheadskier (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> stfu



Lol 

No


----------



## cdskier (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> No, I'm pretty sure that was their argument. ASC argued that if they could not build a hotel then the resort would die during land development reviews.



What's the relevance of ASC? If Summit Ventures bought SB in 2001 and the EB5 use at SB didn't start until 2007 or so, then wasn't ASC long gone by then? Summit Ventures couldn't have predicted that EB5 money would become available when they purchased SB from ASC, so I would think they had some plan that would have allowed them to survive without that money (obviously not with all the build out that they have today...but Win is a very smart business man so I find it hard to believe he would have bought SB only to say a few years later that they'd close without the EB5 money). Perhaps there was a lot of unexpected expenses (and I know Win has outright said ASC left them with a lot of deferred maintenance on infrastructure...so perhaps they weren't quite aware of the full scope of that at the time of purchase).


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

Sugarbush was purchased with an unsolicited offer from Summit Ventures. ASC sold to reduce it's debt. The contract to install the new Castle Rock chair was signed by ASC not Summit Venture. Doesn't sound to me like ASC gave up on the place.

Talk of bankruptcy was with the previous owners before ASC.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Why do you say tough crowd and quote me?



Oh, sorry. That line was for some of the previous comments. The rest was aimed at the SB/EB5 usage.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

cdskier said:


> What's the relevance of ASC? If Summit Ventures bought SB in 2001 and the EB5 use at SB didn't start until 2007 or so, then wasn't ASC long gone by then? Summit Ventures couldn't have predicted that EB5 money would become available when they purchased SB from ASC, so I would think they had some plan that would have allowed them to survive without that money (obviously not with all the build out that they have today...but Win is a very smart business man so I find it hard to believe he would have bought SB only to say a few years later that they'd close without the EB5 money). Perhaps there was a lot of unexpected expenses (and I know Win has outright said ASC left them with a lot of deferred maintenance on infrastructure...so perhaps they weren't quite aware of the full scope of that at the time of purchase).



ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close.  I was pointing out that ASC did make that argument when it was seeking permission to build a Grand Summit there.

My point was that I believed that Win and Summit Ventures were using the "job retention" requirement for EB-5 instead of the job creation prong.  Their argument was that if they could not get funding for base area development than the resort may close and 400 jobs at least would be cut.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Oh, sorry. That line was for some of the previous comments. The rest was aimed at the SB/EB5 usage.



OK.  You had me scared there.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.



Well.........

ASC did defer on some maintenance of said lifts.  And Win and crew had to take care of some of those issues.  Then they had their own issues that appear to be largely resolved.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close.


I said that?????????????


----------



## benski (May 6, 2016)

All the ASC lift at Sugarbush were put in there first summer running the place. The lifts ASC put in have been big problems for Sugarbush, especially North Ridge which was relocated and not put together properly and has not ran rite since.


----------



## River19 (May 6, 2016)

Looks like Raymond James will be spending some coin on legal fees:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/05/jay-peak-investor-files-class-action-lawsuit-against-raymond-james/


----------



## WWF-VT (May 6, 2016)

benski said:


> All the ASC lift at Sugarbush were put in there first summer running the place. The lifts ASC put in have been big problems for Sugarbush, especially North Ridge which was relocated and not put together properly and has not ran rite since.



NRX had a lot of work done last year and ran without any issues this season.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 6, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.



It's not silly, it's true.  You don't change the oil in your car until it's old?
and it wasn't just the lifts.  The snowmaking system was a mess.  They have been replacing the cheap substandard pipe asc put in all the way down to the pond for years.  In fact, I think that the reason they were able to keep snowball and spring fling open through last weekend, was the increased diameter pipe installed last summer allowing them to make more snow


----------



## fcksummer (May 6, 2016)

I don't know what's worse...getting banned or your username turning pink. :razz:


----------



## tumbler (May 6, 2016)

Sugarbush benefited greatly from both ASC and Summit Ventures.  ASC upgraded the lifts and snowmking.  Does anyone rememeber what South was like before?  Sugar Bravo- Triple, Gate House- Double and there was barely any nowmkaing coverage.  So some of the pipe was junk, but Snowball/Spring Fling pipe predated ASC.  ASC also did all the permitting for the hotel, base area and snowmaking pond, no easy or cheap feat in the Town of Warren and with the State.  Summit Ventures was then able to modify the the existing approvals to what is in place now.  If ASC had not done what they did I cannot imagine what the place would look like now.  Probably new lifts but still the old Gatehouse lodge and the shanty town of buuildings that we used to move around in the summer.  ASC got too big too fast and there was no money left.  Win has done well and seems to financially prudent and has become a solid member of the MRV community.

Side note- The one thing I miss is the clock tower at the base, I wish there was one.  I either have to dig my phone out or remmeber to look when getting on the lift.


----------



## Newpylong (May 6, 2016)

I think it is fair to say there was deferred maintenance by ASC in the last years - it happens as things start to implode. I lived there from 94-99 and saw it with my own eyes.

However any discussion about ASC's influence on the mountain(s) as a whole cannot leave out all the good that they did. The mountain would simply not be what it is today without the investment they made.


----------



## tumbler (May 6, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I think it is fair to say there was deferred maintenance by ASC in the last years - it happens as things start to implode. I lived there from 94-99 and saw it with my own eyes.
> 
> However any discussion about ASC's influence on the mountain(s) as a whole cannot leave out all the good that they did. The mountain would simply not be what it is today without the investment they made.



There absolutely was deferred maintenance, I didnt mean to imply there wasn't.  I was there also and was one of the lucky few to keep my job during the summer.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 6, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Sugarbush benefited greatly from both ASC and Summit Ventures.  ASC upgraded the lifts and snowmking.  Does anyone rememeber what South was like before?  Sugar Bravo- Triple, Gate House- Double and there was barely any nowmkaing coverage.  So some of the pipe was junk, but Snowball/Spring Fling pipe predated ASC.  ASC also did all the permitting for the hotel, base area and snowmaking pond, no easy or cheap feat in the Town of Warren and with the State.  Summit Ventures was then able to modify the the existing approvals to what is in place now.  If ASC had not done what they did I cannot imagine what the place would look like now.  Probably new lifts but still the old Gatehouse lodge and the shanty town of buuildings that we used to move around in the summer.  ASC got too big too fast and there was no money left.  Win has done well and seems to financially prudent and has become a solid member of the MRV community.
> 
> Side note- The one thing I miss is the clock tower at the base, I wish there was one.  I either have to dig my phone out or remember to look when getting on the lift.



I dont disagree with anything of that.  
It wasnt until ASC's plan for the hotel was rejected and they had corporate cash flow issues that they started skimping on everything from maintenance to marketing.  But the point was that when summit took over there was more than ordinary costs hiding.

fwiw-with respect to the snow making pipes, Win has said that the old pipes going to upper ripcord, organgrinder and jester limit what they can pump through to 2500gpm despite having roughly 4000gpm capacity at LP.  So early season, when temps are marginal down low, they can't even utilize the capacity they have on the upper mountain.  I think that's the next capital project on the list.

and totally agree about the clock tower.  there used to be a clock on the sign by the super bravo but that came down last season.  annoying and I suspect they dont have one intentionally.


----------



## cdskier (May 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close.  I was pointing out that ASC did make that argument when it was seeking permission to build a Grand Summit there.
> 
> My point was that I believed that Win and Summit Ventures were using the "job retention" requirement for EB-5 instead of the job creation prong.  Their argument was that if they could not get funding for base area development than the resort may close and 400 jobs at least would be cut.



Ok, I get what you're saying now. Your position was that Summit Ventures was using ASC's argument to justify their own use of the job retention metric when they did decide to start using EB5. I wonder how much of that was reality vs simply a scare tactic. I will give them the fact that without the development they surely would have had less jobs than they do now, but I'm not going to buy all the way in to the "we would have closed" part.

To other comments in this thread re ASC, I absolutely agree ASC did some very good things along with some not so good things towards the end at SB.

Here's a more general EB5 question...the program is always touted as an "Investment". Investments can result in gains or losses. Do any of these EB5 "investments" ever actually result in the investor getting repaid more than they invested? From the way Sugarbush always talks about repaying their EB5 investors it sounded like they were simply getting repaid the amount they invested. I could easily be wrong on this though and interpreting comments Win/SB made incorrectly.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 6, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Ok, I get what you're saying now. Your position was that Summit Ventures was using ASC's argument to justify their own use of the job retention metric when they did decide to start using EB5. I wonder how much of that was reality vs simply a scare tactic. I will give them the fact that without the development they surely would have had less jobs than they do now, but I'm not going to buy all the way in to the "we would have closed" part.
> 
> To other comments in this thread re ASC, I absolutely agree ASC did some very good things along with some not so good things towards the end at SB.
> 
> Here's a more general EB5 question...the program is always touted as an "Investment". Investments can result in gains or losses. Do any of these EB5 "investments" ever actually result in the investor getting repaid more than they invested? From the way Sugarbush always talks about repaying their EB5 investors it sounded like they were simply getting repaid the amount they invested. I could easily be wrong on this though and interpreting comments Win/SB made incorrectly.



I think the simple answer is "yes". 
what they earn depends on the success of the project.


----------



## cdskier (May 6, 2016)

I answered part of my own question about whether I was interpreting the comments I remember hearing from SB on their repayment of EB5 investors.

Per this article, the investors are taking a slight loss, but getting pretty close to their original investment back
http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/01/foreign-investors-help-sugarbush-resort-return-to-profitability/


----------



## steamboat1 (May 6, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I answered part of my own question about whether I was interpreting the comments I remember hearing from SB on their repayment of EB5 investors.
> 
> Per this article, the investors are taking a slight loss, but getting pretty close to their original investment back
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/01/foreign-investors-help-sugarbush-resort-return-to-profitability/



From the article: _*"The foreign lenders helped preserve 400 jobs *at the year-round ski, mountain-biking, and golf resort, which has a $10 million payroll and about 155 full-time, year-round workers".
_
Doesn't say they created jobs.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2016)

tumbler said:


> The one thing I miss is *the clock tower at the base*, I wish there was one.  I either have to dig my phone out or remmeber to look when getting on the lift.



Oh yeah.... I vaguely remember that!


----------



## JPTracker (May 6, 2016)

Hostile Takeover attempt by Stenger backfired

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=431


----------



## steamboat1 (May 6, 2016)

Shumlin Removes Stenger From Council of Economic Advisors


http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...ves-stenger-from-council-of-economic-advisers


----------



## Edd (May 6, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> Hostile Takeover attempt by Stenger backfired
> 
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=431



For anyone working in the ski industry, this is fascinating stuff. Quiros is certainly a...."Quiroosity"!!!!

Thank you. I'll take my high fives as I walk out the door.


----------



## tumbler (May 6, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont disagree with anything of that.
> It wasnt until ASC's plan for the hotel was rejected and they had corporate cash flow issues that they started skimping on everything from maintenance to marketing.  But the point was that when summit took over there was more than ordinary costs hiding.
> 
> fwiw-with respect to the snow making pipes, Win has said that the old pipes going to upper ripcord, organgrinder and jester limit what they can pump through to 2500gpm despite having roughly 4000gpm capacity at LP.  So early season, when temps are marginal down low, they can't even utilize the capacity they have on the upper mountain.  I think that's the next capital project on the list.
> ...



Ripcord pipe is pre-ASC and dead heads at the top of Ripcord.  ASC put in the pipe on Grinder and Jester, that is a loop and is good size pipe.  The project would be new pipe on Ripcord that ties into Grinder/Jester. Not sure if the booster pump house is 100% online either.  

Tough year, hopefully everyone keeps their job.  I doubt any capital projects this summer and i dont blame them either.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Shumlin Removes Stenger From Council of Economic Advisors
> 
> 
> http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...ves-stenger-from-council-of-economic-advisers



And it only took what?  Three weeks after the SEC suit to do it?


----------



## benski (May 6, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Ripcord pipe is pre-ASC and dead heads at the top of Ripcord.  ASC put in the pipe on Grinder and Jester, that is a loop and is good size pipe.  The project would be new pipe on Ripcord that ties into Grinder/Jester. Not sure if the booster pump house is 100% online either.
> 
> Tough year, hopefully everyone keeps their job.  I doubt any capital projects this summer and i dont blame them either.



I assumed the bottleneck was lower downspout. I also assume the additional power needed to pump water to the top of the mountain reduces capacity.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2016)

I find it difficult to believe Stenger was attempting to mastermind the hostile takeover of a private company.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I find it difficult to believe Stenger was attempting to mastermind the hostile takeover of a private company.



Agreed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Shumlin Removes Stenger From Council of Economic Advisors



Stenger has a degree in political science, then worked his life at ski resorts, and he's an "economic advisor" for the State of Vermont?

Maybe I should move back to Vermont and try to get on the Council of Legal & Regulatory Advisors.  I have no legal education, I'm not a lawyer, and I really know nothing about the law, but it sure sounds like it might be interesting.


----------



## fbrissette (May 6, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Shumlin Removes Stenger From Council of Economic Advisors
> 
> 
> http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...ves-stenger-from-council-of-economic-advisers




Shumlin should remove himself.


----------



## benski (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stenger has a degree in political science, then worked his life at ski resorts, and he's an "economic advisor" for the State of Vermont?
> 
> Maybe I should move back to Vermont and try to get on the Council of Legal & Regulatory Advisors.  I have no legal education, I'm not a lawyer, and I really know nothing about the law, but it sure sounds like it might be interesting.



Though he may not be the best person, without him they lack any representation from the tourism industry and who know how many people in that industry wanted that position.


----------



## HowieT2 (May 6, 2016)

tumbler said:


> Ripcord pipe is pre-ASC and dead heads at the top of Ripcord.  ASC put in the pipe on Grinder and Jester, that is a loop and is good size pipe.  The project would be new pipe on Ripcord that ties into Grinder/Jester. Not sure if the booster pump house is 100% online either.
> 
> Tough year, hopefully everyone keeps their job.  I doubt any capital projects this summer and i dont blame them either.




agreed.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stenger has a degree in political science, then worked his life at ski resorts, and he's an "economic advisor" for the State of Vermont?
> 
> Maybe I should move back to Vermont and try to get on the Council of Legal & Regulatory Advisors.  I have no legal education, I'm not a lawyer, and I really know nothing about the law, but it sure sounds like it might be interesting.



Seriously, all you need is to know the right people.  The Shumlin Administration and a certain renewable energy developer could not understand what was wrong with having that developer serve on a state committee that doled out state subsidies, at least 2/3 of which HAPPENED to go to developer's company.  What was wrong there? 



fbrissette said:


> Shumlin should remove himself.



He was at 30% approval rating last month.


----------



## mbedle (May 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stenger has a degree in political science, then worked his life at ski resorts, and he's an "economic advisor" for the State of Vermont?
> 
> Maybe I should move back to Vermont and try to get on the Council of Legal & Regulatory Advisors.  I have no legal education, I'm not a lawyer, and I really know nothing about the law, but it sure sounds like it might be interesting.



I don't think anyone on that board has a degree in economics. Its an advisory board from many different businesses in Vermont. I work on a planning committee and don't have a degree in community planning.


----------



## abc (May 7, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I don't think anyone on that board has a degree in economics. Its an advisory board from many different businesses in Vermont. I work on a planning committee and don't have a degree in community planning.


Are those mostly paid or unpaid positions? If unpaid, how many business men/women are willing to give up their valuable time serving on the board unless they have a particular agenda that would benefit their very own business.


----------



## SIKSKIER (May 7, 2016)

Does MSSI have some culpability in this at all?Just reading one of the VtDigger articles on how Q financed the purchase of Jay.One has to wonder if MSSI knew he was using the eb-5 funds to buy it since the money was transfered right before the sale and the amount they recieved was the same as the total of the 2 tranfers with the balance to be paid in installments down the road.


----------



## Harvey (May 7, 2016)

I thought I read that they did know, told him it was no bueno, but it went down anyway. Not positive about that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 7, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> *Does MSSI have some culpability in this at all?Just reading one of the VtDigger articles on how Q financed the purchase of Jay.*One has to wonder if MSSI knew he was using the eb-5 funds to buy it since the money was transfered right before the sale and the amount they recieved was the same as the total of the 2 tranfers with the balance to be paid in installments down the road.



I recall reading in an article that MSSI strenuously warned them not to use EB-5 money, which makes you wonder if Quiros and company were so stupid as to actually tell them, or if MSSI perhaps had an inclination and were simply covering themselves by warning against it.   The article wasn't detailed on this subject, but that's an important distinction.   A third possibility is MSSI might have "suspected" EB-5 was going to be used, but didnt give a ratz behind once they covered their bases by specifically warning Jay Peak against it.


----------



## machski (May 8, 2016)

Would MSSI have any culpability on EB-5 money someone else used?  After all, they are a Canadian company so how would a US program THEY themselves did not use spill back on them?


----------



## cdskier (May 9, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/09/sec-quiros-wants-asset-freeze-lifted-to-pay-for-luxury-items/

This guy is unbelievable:


> The SEC filing shows Quiros wants, for example, $8,904 a month to pay for his daughter’s expenses, $5,000 a month for his son, $5,056 for leases on luxury vehicles, $3,000 for storage of a military vehicle collection, $6,665 for expenses related to his luxury New York condo and $6,650 for personal assistants.
> 
> Quiros also lists business expenses, including $15,000 a month for a restaurant and $15,583 for Vermont property taxes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 9, 2016)

cdskier said:


> *This guy is unbelievable*



It's really amazing.  

I mean, the whole thing is completely moronic on his part given the dire situation he's in, and this is not going to yield ANY potential sympathy that might be useful in court at a later date.

But the bolded bit below?  Asking for money to help pay for a multi-million dollar condo that you STOLE?!?!?!?



> The SEC filing shows Quiros wants, for example, $8,904 a month to pay  for his daughter’s expenses, $5,000 a month for his son, $5,056 for  leases on luxury vehicles, $3,000 for storage of a military vehicle  collection, *$6,665 for expenses related to his luxury New York condo* and  $6,650 for personal assistants. Quiros also lists business expenses, including $15,000 a month for a restaurant and $15,583 for Vermont property taxes.



The only two plausible explanations I can think of for this are:

1) A desperate (and futile) attempt to maintain that the NYC real estate is in fact legitimately owned
2) Just a giant **** you to the SEC


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 9, 2016)

Beyond all that, however, this is the most important part of that article:



> *Quiros does not have enough frozen liquid assets to pay for the amount he has requested*



Translated, Quiros is nowhere near as rich as people believed.  Secondly, beyond the high-dollar real estate and some luxury cars, etc....where the hell is all the money?


----------



## Puck it (May 9, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Beyond all that, however, this is the most important part of that article:
> 
> 
> 
> Translated, Quiros is nowhere near as rich as people believed.  Secondly, beyond the high-dollar real estate and some luxury cars, etc....where the hell is all the money?


Spent it all on signage for his ego.  Q this and Q that, you know.


----------



## JimG. (May 9, 2016)

A future episode of "American Greed"


----------



## fbrissette (May 9, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Translated, Quiros is nowhere near as rich as people believed.  Secondly, beyond the high-dollar real estate and some luxury cars, etc....where the hell is all the money?



I would fully expect him to argue he has no money, even if he has stashed 50 millions in the Cayman Islands.


----------



## Edd (May 9, 2016)

Q has a military vehicle collection. Ok.


----------



## River19 (May 9, 2016)

Like I said (along with BG and many others) every clue was there to suggest they had no real deep pool of money.  Anything they couldn't legally spend EB-5 money on was cut down to roughly cash out = cash in....as cash in dropped steadily due to significant lack of Q-business skill so did cash out in the form of cutting damn near everything and everyone.

And then for the true naysayers it became clear as day with the whole "hotel is done but can't pay the last $5M" situation.  If you are a big enough player to be managing a supposed $300M+ set of projects, you should have access to $5-10M within at least a few business days; and with this "ownership" crew I will caveat the "access to $" through legal means without committing fraud.

I agree with the dude on FB......free up a snowmaking salary from Burke for Q.  maybe sell a few old Army jeeps to raise capital and cut that unfortunate $3000/mo maintenance fee.


----------



## halfpintvt (May 9, 2016)

[h=1]Offshore account in Ary's name listed on the ICIJ web site. Wonder if there is any $$ in it?

ICIJ · The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (https://offshoreleaks.icij.org    )

MAYTEL (B.V.I.) LIMITED[/h]                                 

Connected to *1 intermediary*
Connected to *1 address*
Connected to *1 officer*
Connected to *1 intermediary*
 

            Incorporated: *16-APR-2007* 
 Status: *Active*
 Registered in: British Virgin Islands
 Linked countries: Virgin Islands, British
 


 Data from: *Offshore Leaks*
 Agent: *Portcullis Trustnet*
 The offshore leaks data is current through 2010
 Search in 


 














             [h=2]Connections[/h]               
                    [h=3]Officer[/h]    
RoleFrom To Data FromQUIROS ARY ANTHONYShareholder2007-04-22-Offshore LeaksPortcullis TrustNet (BVI) LimitedRecords & registers--Offshore Leaks
 
             [h=3]Intermediary[/h]    
StatusData FromPortcullis TrustNet (BVI) LimitedOffshore LeaksReady-Made Registrations LimitedOffshore Leaks
 
             [h=3]Address[/h]                
Data FromPortcullis TrustNet Chambers P.O. Box 3444 Road Town, Tortola British Virgin Islands (w.e.f 9 December 2005)Offshore Leaks


----------



## yeggous (May 9, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> [h=1]Offshore account in Ary's name listed on the ICIJ web site. Wonder if there is any $$ in it?
> 
> ICIJ · The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (https://offshoreleaks.icij.org    )
> 
> ...



Well done. How did you come across this? I guess now we all know where the money is.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## wa-loaf (May 9, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Well done. How did you come across this? I guess now we all know where the money is.



The Panama Papers: https://panamapapers.icij.org


----------



## steamboat1 (May 9, 2016)

wa-loaf said:


> The Panama Papers: https://panamapapers.icij.org


You mean to tell me offshore money is going offshore.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 9, 2016)

I'd expect quite a bit of money to be hidden and ferreted away into hard, durable assets that cannot be easily found and quickly "erased" electronically as well - gold, diamonds, etc...


----------



## JimG. (May 10, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> You mean to tell me offshore money is going offshore.



And it's "legal".


----------



## cdskier (May 10, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd expect quite a bit of money to be hidden and ferreted away into hard, durable assets that cannot be easily found and quickly "erased" electronically as well - gold, diamonds, etc...



Do you think Quiros is smart enough to do that? I wouldn't be surprised if it was sitting in an offshore account labelled "money stolen from EB5 investors."


----------



## River19 (May 10, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Do you think Quiros is smart enough to do that? I wouldn't be surprised if it was sitting in an offshore account labelled "money stolen from EB5 investors."



"Money Stolen from EB-5 Investors - FBO - Crack Mechanics"


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 10, 2016)

> In the hearing Monday, it was as if the two sides — Gordon and the firm  Berger Singerman versus litigators for the SEC — were arguing two  different cases.



http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/10/defense-lawyers-say-quiros-did-not-violate-securities-laws/


----------



## Domeskier (May 10, 2016)

Apologies if already posted here, but Quiros and Stenger made today's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/us/fraud-charges-mar-a-plan-to-aid-a-struggling-vermont-region.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 10, 2016)

On a stupidity scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the smartest, and 10 being the dumbest, Shumlin thinks Vermonters are about 3,804.



> *Mr.  Shumlin accompanied the developers abroad to recruit investors and  appeared in a promotional video* for Mr. Stenger* in which he said the  projects were audited, though they were not;* Mr. Shumlin has said that  he misspoke regarding the audit and the video was taken down. *“There  isn’t a human being on this earth, when you go through a disappointment  like this, that doesn’t ask, ‘Couldn’t something have been done to find  this sooner?*’ ” Mr. Shumlin said in an interview. *“We all wish the  answer were yes, we all wish we got subpoena power to look at accounts  earlier. But there was no reason to believe that what the developers  were representing wasn’t true.”*


----------



## River19 (May 10, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a stupidity scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the smartest, and 10 being the dumbest, Shumlin thinks Vermonters are about 3,804.



Totally agree...what a friggin' joke, and a kick in the groin at the same time.  Vermonters should be insulted by this crap.

"....there was no reason to believe that what developers were representing wasn't true"........except for all the obvious stuff that suggested what the developers were representing wasn't true.  Seriously, the BS is strong with this one.

As far as this whole Quiros request to have his properties back etc........ one question Mr. Quiros......"Did you buy both Jay Peak and Burke Mountain with funds which originated with EB-5 investors?"........and every indication is "yes" and even he admits it but he calls those funds his "profits".......given that, I believe Quiros owns exactly jack squat when it comes to ski areas in the NEK.  So here is a big old cup of nuthin' which is 100% of your ownership stake in both mountains.  Fraud.

I had a tough day.......I feel better now......


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 10, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a stupidity scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the smartest, and 10 being the dumbest, Shumlin thinks Vermonters are about 3,804.


Shumlin is shameless. Note that this was a public-private "partnership". "the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center is a USCIS Designated Regional Center that is owned, controlled, and supervised directly by the state of Vermont’s Agency of Commerce and Community Development (and was the first of its kind in terms of ownership). According to the website, the state’s involvement in EB-5 projects provides the “unique advantages” of governmental oversight, monitoring, and credibility “without added cost or administrative burden” to businesses seeking EB-5 funding."

Obviously, the state abdicated its oversight and monitoring roles while whoring out it's credibility on Shumlin's watch. Shameless Shumlin should just resign and leave.

Il pesce comincia a puzzare dalla testa.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 10, 2016)

Shumlin's term is up at the end of the year and he is not seeking re-election.

Quiros is in good company. He's not listed in this article but he would fit right in.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/pana...ns-accused-financial-crimes/story?id=39007304


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Do you think Quiros is smart enough to do that? I wouldn't be surprised if it was sitting in an offshore account labelled "money stolen from EB5 investors."



If I were an evil person, I'd have it in gold bars, buried on Federal land, with stashed GPS coordinates.

At any rate, I'm looking at my pocket watch wondering when the media is going to start asking the outrageously obvious question of, *WHERE are the missing TENS of millions of dollars?* 

There's a heckuva lot more "missing" than just a $2M NYC condo, that's really just an hors d'oeuvre.


----------



## mbedle (May 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> If I were an evil person, I'd have it in gold bars, buried on Federal land, with stashed GPS coordinates.
> 
> At any rate, I'm looking at my pocket watch wondering when the media is going to start asking the outrageously obvious question of, *WHERE are the missing TENS of millions of dollars?*
> 
> There's a heckuva lot more "missing" than just a $2M NYC condo, that's really just an hors d'oeuvre.



I think that has already been answered. 22.1 million for Jay Peak, 7 million for Burke, 2.5 million for Condo, 6 million for IRS, 4.2 million for Vermont, 5.5 million went to NECS (that money was most likely spent already) and some amount I think was spent on interest for the margin loans. I think another large chunk of money went into the contractors hands for cost overruns on a couple of the initial projects. I wonder what affect that might have on Peak CM and the other contractor they used for these projects.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I think that has already been answered. 22.1 million for Jay Peak, 7 million for Burke, 2.5 million for Condo, 6 million for IRS, 4.2 million for Vermont, 5.5 million went to NECS (that money was most likely spent already) and some amount I think was spent on interest for the margin loans.* I think another large chunk of money went into the contractors hands for cost overruns on a couple of the initial projects.* I wonder what affect that might have on Peak CM and the other contractor they used for these projects.



Even if that's the case, and you add all your numbers above, there's still a lot of money not accounted for.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

Also, I was curious as to the state of the 84 condos, and where that's at, and it doesn't sound good.  

Seems like these cottages might be near-term eyesores:



> The Stateside Hotel is done, but* construction on the 84 cottages is nowhere near finished*, and construction on the recreation center and the medical center has not even begun. * Only 36 of the 84 cottages are even close to being done.* * I am informed that it will cost approximately $11 million to complete the cottages (not including the $2.1 million Stateside allegedly owes to the contractor for constructing the cottages)*. It is estimated to cost an additional $5.2 million to build the recreation center and $1.3 million to build the medical center. As set forth above, *there was only $19,545.85 in Stateside's  accounts. JCM, which was the project manager for Stateside, and where Quiros testified he sent investor funds, only has $484,116.70 in its accounts.* Q Resorts has only about $1.2 million. * This is nowhere near the amount needed to finish Stateside.*  In short, *despite raising all the money the Stateside offering documents said was needed to build the project, the Receivership  Defendants did something other than build the Stateside project with the money raised, because the Jay Peak entities no longer have it.*




So they estimate $13.1 Million to complete the cottages, and the dedicated Stateside accounts for those funds have less than $500k.  

Honestly, will the cottages EVER be built out, or will they be ghost hulks?  

The smartest thing right now I think for a new owner would be to invest the $13.1 Million to finish them, and then switch gears/plans and SELL them (assuming you can get the zoning changed, which I imagine would be needed).


----------



## steamboat1 (May 11, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/11/sec-receiver-its-time-to-remedy-wrongs/


----------



## thetrailboss (May 11, 2016)

Domeskier said:


> Apologies if already posted here, but Quiros and Stenger made today's NYT:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/us/fraud-charges-mar-a-plan-to-aid-a-struggling-vermont-region.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0



My favorite quote:



> “In two years, this will look like a bump in the road to good jobs and great resorts.”



That's from the Governor, who in two years will be out of office and probably in a country with no extradition treaty with the U.S.  Classy--don't worry, be happy!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 11, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/11/sec-receiver-its-time-to-remedy-wrongs/



This is a recurrent theme:



> Quiros and Stenger recently attempted to obtain a $25.8 million loan to finish Stateside, purchase snow guns and repair the Jay Peak Tram. They pledged all of the assets at Jay Peak and Burke Mountain but failed to secure the loan, Goldberg said.



I think that these assets have been pledged now at least once if not twice for things.  

And this is just absurd:



> The developers took money out of the projects in fees, some of which, the SEC argues, they were not entitled to. *In all, Quiros and Stenger took $98.3 million in management fees and land sales, and made direct purchases of two resorts, two condos in New York City and land in Newport straight out of investor funds, the SEC says.*
> 
> *Of that amount, Quiros and Stenger were entitled to take a total of $42.8 million in profits for 10 percent to 15 percent in project management fees, 5 percent for contingencies and a total of $12.68 million for land proceeds, based on agreements they signed with investors.*
> 
> The SEC alleges that the balance — $55.5 million — was taken from investors illegally.



And the definition of a Ponzi scheme:



> Dee described the convoluted scheme: They used People’s Bank, Raymond James investor accounts, Quiros’ accounts — Q Resorts and Jay Construction Management — Treasury bills and margin loans. *The flow of funds was circular, and shortfalls for each project were made up by new money from new investors.*


----------



## mbedle (May 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even if that's the case, and you add all your numbers above, there's still a lot of money not accounted for.



What other money are you talking about? I think the total shortfall (missing money) is around 69 million to complete everything. Around 50 million was used, as describe in my previous post. The rest was used to pay for overruns on the Phase I & II projects.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

> *The toughest challenge, though, is figuring out what to do with the AnC  Bio Vermont project*, which was never built and most of the money has  disappeared.



No, actually, that's the easiest "figuring" remaining in this entire mess.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, actually, that's the easiest "figuring" remaining in this entire mess.



AnC Bio's not even a company anymore in S Korea and NONE of its products are even approved in the US. That project should never be built. Now, keeping all of the investors from being completely screwed by not building a project they paid for is the hard part. Can they have their "money" transferred to another project? Do they take whatever refund the receiver can secure and be happy with that?


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

mbedle said:


> What other money are you talking about?* I think the total shortfall (missing money) is around 69 million* to complete everything. Around 50 million was used, as describe in my previous post. The rest was used to pay for overruns on the Phase I & II projects.



It's gotta' be way more than that.  Oddly, the way this is getting reported it's sometimes conflicting info, but it must be north of $100M.  Take the worst abuse, the laughably fake bio project for instance, there's over $60M "missing" just from that project alone.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> AnC Bio's not even a company anymore in S Korea and *NONE of its products are even approved in the US. *That project should never be built.



I know, right?

It's almost as if going into business to manufacture artificial organs is riskier and more technologically involved than manufacturing lift ticket widgets.

 I may have to rethink my artificial heart business now.  Previously I thought it was a lay-up.


----------



## mbedle (May 11, 2016)

Holly shit - just say a bill from Quire's lawyer for the tune of $204,852... WOW and that is for 15 days of work.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

mbedle said:


> *Holly shit - just say a bill from Quire's lawyer for the tune of $204,852... WOW and that is for 15 days of work*.



Is there no law to prevent this?  Not even being sarcastic.   

When it's known that an individual has used fraud or theft to aquire wealth, and that "wealth" is being sought to be recovered, why should that individual be allowed to hire an extremely high-priced attorney when it's 100% known that the victims are the ones......and this is just heavy NaCl in the wounds.....paying those bills?

I imagine the answer is as simple as innocent until proven guilty?


----------



## farlep99 (May 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is there no law to prevent this?  Not even being sarcastic.
> 
> When it's known that an individual has used fraud or theft to aquire wealth, and that "wealth" is being sought to be recovered, why should that individual be allowed to hire an extremely high-priced attorney when it's 100% known that the victims are the ones......and this is just heavy NaCl in the wounds.....paying those bills?
> 
> I imagine the answer is as simple as innocent until proven guilty?



Actually, no.  This is a civil matter, not criminal, so there is no presumption of innocence.  

But on the matter of whether or not the gov't can use asset forfeiture (or freezing assets), which effectively stops a defendant from paying a lawyer, there's actually a case before the Supreme Court right now on this very issue.  It deals with a criminal case - but most of us believe AQ will have one of those in the not too distant future...

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...overnment-freeze-money-needed-to-pay-a-lawyer


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 11, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Holly shit - just say a bill from Quire's lawyer for the tune of $204,852... WOW and that is for 15 days of work.


We are going to see a series of Quiros "lawyers" as they realize the corpus they hope to feed off is a penniless fool.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2016)

farlep99 said:


> Actually, no.  This is a civil matter, not criminal, so there is no presumption of innocence.
> 
> But on the matter of *whether or not the gov't can use asset forfeiture (or freezing assets), which effectively stops a defendant from paying a lawyer, there's actually a case before the Supreme Court right now on this very issue.*  It deals with a criminal case - but most of us believe AQ will have one of those in the not too distant future...
> 
> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...overnment-freeze-money-needed-to-pay-a-lawyer



Well that's good news, because this seems like a no-brainer.


----------



## farlep99 (May 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well that's good news, because this seems like a no-brainer.



Yeah it really does seem like a no-brainer criminal case.  Criminal cases involving financial fraud are complex though & they take a lot of time.

I sent that link on that case yesterday before I realized that the Supreme Court had already ruled on the case in question.  They essentially ruled that the Gov can only freeze 'tainted' assets & not those assets that are not in question in a crime.  It's actually a really interesting case & it's one area where there really is no party-line view.

I think the court ruled properly, but here's the thing: In the case in question the Gov was accusing someone of a $50m fraud (sound familiar?)  When the subject of the case was indicted she had $2m in assets.  Gov essentially argued that since much of the 'tainted' funds had been spent already, they had a right to freeze so-called 'legitimate' assets so the subject could pay Restitution, criminal penalties, etc.  Subject argued she had a right to the money to pay for a lawyer.  Supreme Court agreed with her.

I can easily see a similar situation playing out with AQ.  If he's charged criminally, he'll be able to pay a lawyer with any money he may have that's not in question in the fraud.  So unfortunately it is 'salt in the wounds' for investors because much of their money is long gone & Ary will still get a high priced lawyer.


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 12, 2016)

In today's shocking news (pun intended), Q Burke was behind in paying it's electric bills.


----------



## DoublePlanker (May 12, 2016)

lawyers always get paid.  After all, there are lawyers specializing in bankruptcy.  They get paid before creditors.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 12, 2016)

In my next life, I want to come back as a class action lawsuit attorney.  

You get $25 Million or $100 Million, and the "victims" get $2.50 or $100.


----------



## Not Sure (May 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> In my next life, I want to come back as a class action lawsuit attorney.
> 
> You get $25 Million or $100 Million, and the "victims" get $2.50 or $100.



Ha Ha ..inflation used to be One Dollar and 9 cents.
I can see them carrying out the furniture ....


----------



## abc (May 12, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> You want to come back as somebody everyone despises?  Interesting goal. To each their own I guess.


They can despise as they want while I laugh all the way to the bank!


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 17, 2016)

Eventually a large part of the Kingdom Con story will be AnC Bio related. Here is a link to a preposterous assessment of the business prospects. 

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/vpr/files/201503/jay-peak-independent-report-vpr-20150324.pdf

I don't think this has been posted before. I guess you can pay people to say anything. Every one of these "products" require clinical trials that take years and have enormous budgets.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 17, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> Eventually a large part of the Kingdom Con story will be AnC Bio related. Here is a link to *a preposterous assessment of the business prospects......Every one of these "products" require clinical trials that take years and have enormous budgets. *



And are extremely high-risk from the standpoint of likelihood of success and FDA approval, and 1001 other obvious things frankly. 

All of which State of Vermont SHOULD have known, except in addition to Vermont's complete lack of financial regulation, Vermont did zero due diligence and clearly didn't bother to ask anyone with biotech or healthcare experience about the potential risks, who 100% would have told them this project is NUTS.  

But here's the reality:  State of Vermont didn't WANT to know - so long as $500,000 checks were coming into Vermont, that's all they cared about.   I said this in 2013:



> The problem is the unintended consequences of monkeying with the market.  Most people with a facile view of economics will say, _"what's the problem!  Tons of money is coming in from foreigners, it didnt cost American's anything, and it will create jobs!"_  - but just give it about a decade and you'll see the problems.  The  jobs dont come, not really anyway, and they're often transient and  always fraudulently overestimated.   And* in this particular case,  they're so hungry to bring in $500,000 checks, it's painfully obvious  they couldnt care less how it's done.   An unproven biotech  in Newport Vermont?*  A German window manufacturer?  An "International  Airport" in Newport?  A distribution center for The Jelly of the Month  Club? * It really doesnt matter, just keep forwarding those uber-rich  foreigner's checks please.   This will not end well.*


----------



## Cannonball (May 17, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I said this in 2013:



If only the SEC, the State of VT, the US federal reserve, the the UN, the History Channel, and everyone else had paid close attention to your statements on a ski forum this all could have been avoided!!!  What were they doing instead? Don't they know that the essence of international finance is distilled right here?  Have you ever thought about sharing your gift with a larger audience?


----------



## fbrissette (May 17, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> If only the SEC, the State of VT, the US federal reserve, the the UN, the History Channel, and everyone else had paid close attention to your statements on a ski forum this all could have been avoided!!!  What were they doing instead? Don't they know that the essence of international finance is distilled right here?  Have you ever thought about sharing your gift with a larger audience?



You forgot the IPCC.


----------



## fbrissette (May 17, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> If only the SEC, the State of VT, the US federal reserve, the the UN, the History Channel, and everyone else had paid close attention to your statements on a ski forum this all could have been avoided!!!  What were they doing instead? Don't they know that the essence of international finance is distilled right here?  Have you ever thought about sharing your gift with a larger audience?



You forgot the IPCC.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 17, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> *If only the SEC, the State of VT*, the US federal reserve, the the UN, the History Channel, and everyone else *had paid close attention to your statements on a ski forum this all could have been avoided!!!*



That part's correct.


EDIT:  Actually it probably isn't, given inherent incompetence is the real problem (SEE: Harry Markopolos & Madoff).


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 17, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *You forgot the IPCC.*



That part's incorrect. 

IPCC ≅ Frost & Sullivan


----------



## JimG. (May 17, 2016)

NEKgate.


----------



## River19 (May 18, 2016)

But the government has plenty of time to opine on Tom Brady's balls......


----------



## halfpintvt (May 18, 2016)

"Burke is Back" Party in the bear Den at Mid Burke on May 28th from 2 PM to 7 PM!


----------



## Abubob (May 18, 2016)

I see that season's passes for 2016-17 are on sale $600 for Burke and $750 for Burke and Jay.

http://qburke.com/skiing-and-riding/tickets-and-passes/season-passes/

Still qburk web address. How long will that last?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 18, 2016)

Abubob said:


> I see that season's passes for 2016-17 are on sale $600 for Burke and $750 for Burke and Jay.
> 
> http://qburke.com/skiing-and-riding/tickets-and-passes/season-passes/
> 
> Still qburk web address. How long will that last?



They have pushed the early date to July.  Very nice gesture.  

As to the URL, considering that they have been running the resort in a month and have done a hell of a lot of clean-up, I imagine that they have not fixed this yet.  The SkiBurke URL still works; they just need to make the QBurke redirect to it.


----------



## SnowRock (May 19, 2016)

JoeB-Z said:


> Eventually a large part of the Kingdom Con story will be AnC Bio related. Here is a link to a preposterous assessment of the business prospects.
> 
> http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/vpr/files/201503/jay-peak-independent-report-vpr-20150324.pdf
> 
> I don't think this has been posted before. I guess you can pay people to say anything. Every one of these "products" require clinical trials that take years and have enormous budgets.



Agree that this seems to have been a total boondoggle regardless, but... skimming that Frost report, it looks like they were hoping the facility would be a hotel or contract manufacturer, not necessarily develop the products on their own? Many of the companies that sell the drugs aren't making them. The location would be an odd choice for certain... not that all CMOs are in major cities, often times they aren't, but they are certainly closer to much larger population centers.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 19, 2016)

That's interesting that they had qburke.com, because they didn't have that address as of.....oh.... 1.5 years ago or so, someone else did.

  I know, because that was the only obvious permutation of the address that I couldn't buy, because someone else had already bought it.

EDIT:  

Here's the domain change date: _Updated Date: 05-dec-2014

_EDIT2:I searched the old thread, and it was November 18, 2014 that I bought the other names





> I was shocked it was available.   I mean, the NAME of your ski resort is  QBurke, not Burke, so why on earth is your website still skiburke  rather than skiqburke? That makes no sense.
> 
> All your other branding is QBurke, yet you have Burke for your web  address?  Huh? Very confusing for your customers.  I set an auto-renew  calendar reminder so I will keep renewing it so it cant expire.


Given how close that was to the domain name transfer, I wonder if someone from QBurke was reading the threadand decided to buy the name after this.  I never go to Burke's website, so I didn't even know they soon after changed it to Q.......


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 19, 2016)

If you had succeeded in buying QBurke.com before someone else did, I wonder if Ary would have purchased the name from you with some EB5 money :idea:.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 19, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> If you had succeeded in buying QBurke.com before someone else did, I wonder if Ary would have purchased the name from you with some EB5 money :idea:.



Well he definitely purchased the name very soon after from that other guy who had the same idea I did, because I remember trying QBurke.com and it went to one of those, _"would you like to buy this web address"_ pages.

And seriously?  I CANNOT believe that was 1.5 years ago already.  Time is flying.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2016)

Here's an article outlining what needs to be done with the Tram: electrical upgrades and repair/replacement of the carriages.  Apparently there is a design mistake with the Tram that meant that it was carrying more weight than it was designed to handle.  Last year Doppelmayr informed Jay and they reduced capacity.  

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2016/05/23/jay-peaks-tram-overhauled/84596778/


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 23, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> there is a design mistake with the Tram that meant that it was carrying more weight than it was designed to handle



Is that a problem?



> * the tram had been carrying too much weight at once since 1966, due to a mistake in the original operating manual.*



So it's even less efficient than we previously thought.  

Someone, please put a dagger into this thing's heart and run a quad instead, with a short double to the top.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 23, 2016)

The other interesting tidbit from that article is that yet another complete failure by a State of Vermont regulatory agency to "regulate" has been uncovered.


----------



## halfpintvt (May 23, 2016)

Vt Digger Article says that the Burke Hotel will open Sept. 1st!
http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/23/burke-mountain-hotel-to-open-sept-1/


----------



## LONGBOARDR (May 23, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's an article outlining what needs to be done with the Tram: electrical upgrades and repair/replacement of the carriages.  Apparently there is a design mistake with the Tram that meant that it was carrying more weight than it was designed to handle.  Last year Doppelmayr informed Jay and they reduced capacity.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2016/05/23/jay-peaks-tram-overhauled/84596778/



The left tram car (left of operators shack) has reduced capacity ~45 people due to the water tank beneath the car that hauls water to the Sky Haus


----------



## steamboat1 (May 23, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Apparently there is a design mistake with the Tram that meant that it was carrying more weight than it was designed to handle.  Last year Doppelmayr informed Jay and they reduced capacity.


I wonder if anything like this was ever applied to figuring ski lift capacity.

http://www.boattest.com/view-news/4488_new-uscg-weight-rules-for-passenger-vessels


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 23, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Vt Digger Article says that the Burke Hotel will open Sept. 1st!
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/23/burke-mountain-hotel-to-open-sept-1/



That is good news. 

I found the last sentence in that article interesting. To me the quote “We will treat PeakCM separately and deal with them fairly,”  sounds like Mr Goldberg may be a bit skeptical of PeakCM's involvement in all of these projects.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 23, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That is good news.
> 
> I found the last sentence in that article interesting. To me the quote “We will treat PeakCM separately and deal with them fairly,”  sounds like Mr Goldberg may be a bit skeptical of PeakCM's involvement in all of these projects.


In the article Goldberg claims Peak is owed $3.5m, Davis (Peak) claims they are owed $4.5m)


----------



## tumbler (May 23, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> In the article Goldberg claims Peak is owed $3.5m, Davis (Peak) claims they are owed $4.5m)



I bet the 1M difference is the retainge that is being held.  Often missed at the first glance.


----------



## tumbler (May 23, 2016)

I also cannot believe that the contractors got that far in the hole without stopping work.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> The left tram car (left of operators shack) has reduced capacity ~45 people due to the water tank beneath the car that hauls water to the Sky Haus



Ah, so was that the "design" issue?


----------



## gregnye (May 23, 2016)

Doesn't the Cannon Tram hold 70 people? (Well 69+ the operator?). If it must still be a tram why can't they upgrade it to use bigger cabins like the Cannon tram? 

Edit: (Ok I just looked it up--the Cannon Tram apparently can hold 80 people per car but when its winter and passengers have skis its 70)


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 23, 2016)

gregnye said:


> Doesn't the Cannon Tram hold 70 people? (Well 69+ the operator?). If it must still be a tram why can't they upgrade it to use bigger cabins like the Cannon tram?
> 
> Edit: (Ok I just looked it up--the Cannon Tram apparently can hold 80 people per car but when its winter and passengers have skis its 70)



The rest of the infrastructure (bays, towers, haul lines, motors, etc) isn't designed for that size car. If anything Jay would need smaller cars or, as tehy have already started doing, put fewer people in the existing ones.


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## thetrailboss (May 23, 2016)

gregnye said:


> Doesn't the Cannon Tram hold 70 people? (Well 69+ the operator?). If it must still be a tram why can't they upgrade it to use bigger cabins like the Cannon tram?
> 
> Edit: (Ok I just looked it up--the Cannon Tram apparently can hold 80 people per car but when its winter and passengers have skis its 70)



The two are completely different designs about 15 years apart in age.  

The Jay Tram was built in the mid-1960's and designed for the capacity of about 50 folks I think.  

The Cannon Tram was built in 1980 and has a higher capacity (it is newer technology).  

In order to increase capacity they'd probably have to replace a lot of hardware and probably do a whole new Tram.  Certainly not unprecedented.  Look at Jackson Hole.


----------



## octopus (May 23, 2016)

so the tram has been overloaded since 1966 because of an error in the operators manual?  shouldn't that fall on whoever made the operator manual?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2016)

octopus said:


> so the tram has been overloaded since 1966 because of an error in the operators manual?  shouldn't that fall on whoever made the operator manual?



Exactly. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2016)

octopus said:


> so the tram has been overloaded since 1966 because of an error in the operators manual?  shouldn't that fall on whoever made the operator manual?



It's a failure on both parties really, but what's amazing to me is that nobody discovered this 50 years?  I guess I'm just too trusting, but I thought people are supposed to be on top of this sort of thing, as it seems to me this would be a very basic aspect of safety monitoring.

The issue makes me wonder if this is an innovative Doppelmayr revenue play, or if this was only discovered by Doppelmayr after Jay first initiated a request for some work/estimate.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (May 24, 2016)

Or possibly the standards have changed? People are heavier nowadays, than they used to be.


----------



## JPTracker (May 24, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> The left tram car (left of operators shack) has reduced capacity ~45 people due to the water tank beneath the car that hauls water to the Sky Haus



Its actually the weight of the tank is equivalent to 15 people. If they remove the tank then it would hold 60 people. If there is water in the tank then no one is allowed in the tram.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> *Or possibly the standards have changed? People are heavier nowadays, than they used to be.*



My interpretation of the article, unless it's written incorrectly, is that the Jay Tram has been operating over its' rated weight capacity for 50 years.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 24, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> My interpretation of the article, unless it's written incorrectly, is that the Jay Tram has been operating over its' rated weight capacity for 50 years.



Right.  In part because the manufacturer failed to take into consideration the water tank on one of the Cabins.


----------



## machski (May 24, 2016)

Maybe all this on the Tram.  That said, it got new cabins and carriage arms with it back in 2000.  It is possible the new cabs and arms were heavier designs than the original lattice arms and cabins.  Add the water tank issue, this could be a recent issue and the article got it wrong.  I don't think it's an overall system issue, doesn't sound like the track ropes, towers or track rope anchor points are in question.  Just the carriage and electrics (the electrics are strange, thought those were upgraded in 2000 a S well)


----------



## zoomzoom (May 25, 2016)

"Of greater concern to us is the condition of the carriages," { Doppelmayr's president, Mark } Bee wrote in his letter. "To our knowledge there are no records to indicate that the carriages have been subject to regular and thorough [non-destructive testing] inspections."

you fellas do know what a carriage is?


----------



## tumbler (May 25, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> "Of greater concern to us is the condition of the carriages," { Doppelmayr's president, Mark } Bee wrote in his letter. "To our knowledge there are no records to indicate that the carriages have been subject to regular and thorough [non-destructive testing] inspections."
> 
> This is interesting.  I don't know how it would be able to pass state inspection without NDT.  Maybe it is different criteria for a tram than a lift where a certain number of grips and componants need to be tested and reported each year


----------



## zoomzoom (May 25, 2016)

a tram is a bit different from a chairlift in the number of carriers involved, however there are specific manufacturer's requirements for the carriage (rope gripping device) that must be met.  

it would only take an investigative reporter from "digger" 1/2 hour of looking at past annual inspection reports kept on file in montpelier to ascertain what happened in the past.  would the feces would hit the rotating / oscillating device if published?


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 26, 2016)

Interesting that Newport and Jay have the two highest estimated growth rates in Vermont.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ost-vermont-towns-losing-population/84898038/


----------



## thetrailboss (May 26, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Interesting that Newport and Jay have the two highest estimated growth rates in Vermont.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ost-vermont-towns-losing-population/84898038/



[Or had]


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2016)

> The numbers for Orleans County are a bit odd.  Only Jay and Newport have  more residents today than in 2010 — *if you believe the Census  estimates.  I don’t. The statisticians at the Census Bureau claim that  the Town of Jay has 43 more people than in 2015.  That may be true, but  if it is, it means Jay’s 8.3 percent growth rate makes it the third  fastest growing town in Vermont.  That’s hard to believe *for a town in a  county where every other place except one has lost population.  *Even more unusual are the statistics for the Town of Newport.  Its  population grew by 49 percent from 2010 to 2015, making it by far the  fastest growing town in the state*, and possibly one of the fastest  growing in the nation.



This guy sure isn't a threat to mathematically plug any of the holes in Einstein's Theory of Relativity.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2016)

On a serious note:



> But that *depopulation meant that large numbers of Vermonters were  leaving the state in search of better opportunities elsewhere.   *I don’t  think we want to revisit that experience in the 21st century.



This is only going to get worse, not better.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a serious note:
> 
> 
> 
> This is only going to get worse, not better.



There was a story on BBC World Radio the other day talking about Vancouver's issues with housing costs.  Take out some of the place names and it easily could have been about Vermont.  Second home buyers pushing up prices, market not building any new low or middle housing stock, cost of living issues, demographic changes resulting, companies unable to expand because of lack of young skilled workers, etc.

I sound like a broken record on the issue.  A lot of folks "get it" in Vermont, but those that could do something do not or just do not want to do anything about it.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 26, 2016)

People are fleeing high tax states with VT. being one of them.


----------



## Edd (May 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Second home buyers pushing up prices, market not building any new low or middle housing stock.



Saw a story on PBS just a couple of days ago about home inventory being short nationwide, pushing up prices. For new builds, the focus continues to be on the high end of things.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *I sound like a broken record on the issue.* * A lot of folks "get it" in Vermont, but those that could do something do not or just do not want to do anything about it.*



My gf's high school reunion was cancelled, and it seems the most likely reason is simply because there are so few "Vermonters" actually living in Vermont.



steamboat1 said:


> *People are fleeing high tax states with VT. being one of them.*



Yup.  New Jersey is even worse.  People are fleeing here like you wouldnt believe - eastern PA has become a western boomtown with all the Jerseyans hopping over the river.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2016)

High taxes is only one factor. Taxachusetts is booming.  Unprecedented growth within the 495 belt. If you have great higher education facilities it helps. It's often better to move your company to where the new talent is than try and lure that talent to another location.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

Edd said:


> Saw a story on PBS just a couple of days ago about* home inventory being short nationwide, pushing up prices.* For new builds, the focus continues to be on the high end of things.




While this is true, it's only reporting the most happy, rosy, and totally optimistic view of things (i.e. prices are increasing, YAY!).

It's way more complicated than that.

Current economic fundamentals simply do not support current US home prices, and we are now (terrifyingly) back to October 2007 home prices on an inflation adjusted level.  

This in a climate with stagnating US wages, high underemployment, record low LFPR, record high student debt levels which is impairing the key "first-time homeowners" metric, (which leads to bleedthrough to every rung of the housing pyramid), changing cultural views on home ownership by millennials, downsizing (and dying) babyboomers, a rising interest rate environment which will increase mortgage rates harming home sales, and while the banks have admittedly made REO progress, there's still historically high foreclosures and shadow inventory still lurking on bank balance sheets.  Oh, and lasty? The Federal Reserve already went "all in", pushing their chips into the middle of the table, and has no additional play.

This will not end well.  I personally believe Housing Bubble 2.0 is no more than 2 -4 years away.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> High taxes is only one factor.* Taxachusetts is booming.* *Unprecedented growth within the 495 belt.* If you have great higher education facilities it helps. It's often better to move your company to where the new talent is than try and lure that talent to another location.



But you cant view a small area's economy and draw a broad conclusion for the economic climate of the whole area.  By marrying IRS data with census data, Taxachusetts is one of the worst performers in America in terms of wealth "going away".


EDIT:    Just took a look.   

The only states "flight" in this regard that's worse than MA are (not in order) NY, NJ, CA, IL, OH, and MI.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 27, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_growth_rate

MA. is 26 on the list, VT. 49.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_growth_rate
> 
> MA. is 26 on the list, VT. 49.



And CA is 17, with a decent 5% growth rate despite the significant $ talking a walk.   Which tells you much about the folks moving in & out, and in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, _"thahts uh all I'ma gonna say bout thaht"_.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

Out of curiosity, has the cost of living in Chittendon County by any chance increased at a level which significantly exceeds that of the rest of Vermont?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 27, 2016)

Edd said:


> Saw a story on PBS just a couple of days ago about home inventory being short nationwide, pushing up prices. For new builds, the focus continues to be on the high end of things.



Yep that is true.  FWIW PBS has some great news coverage of issues.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If you have great higher education facilities it helps. It's often better to move your company to where the new talent is than try and lure that talent to another location.


MA. & VT. are the top two states for math & science scores in the U.S.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2016)

I was referring to the universities in Metro Boston.  The explosion in technology and pharmaceutical companies in the area has been driven by companies choosing to locate near Harvard, MIT etc. to grab the graduating talent.  Throw in arguably the best healthcare in the country and you have a recipe for growth even with high taxes and cost of living.

GE as an example.  Yes, they didn't like the tax changes in CT, but they chose MA over NY despite NY offering more money.  

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/articl...vince-general-electric-to-pick-boston-over-ny


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> * I was referring to the universities in Metro Boston.  The explosion in technology and pharmaceutical companies in the area has been driven by companies choosing to locate near Harvard, MIT etc. *to grab the graduating talent. Throw in arguably the best healthcare in the country and* you have a recipe for growth even with high taxes and cost of living. *



Yes, there's no doubt Metro Boston (Cambridge especially) is a booming hub for biotech, and biotech startups. The biggest in America in fact.

But what you don't realize is that Massachusetts gives them extremely juicy tax incentives at a whopping > $1 BILLION per year, as well as grants, and even most-favored-nation financing to locate & stay there.  Because these companies actually aren't paying the "high taxes" you speak of, they can thus attract talent with high compensation they otherwise couldn't offer and offset the relatively high cost of living .   You take away those huge tax incentives, grants, and favorable financing, and all the other things you mention really dont matter much.


----------



## cdskier (May 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes, there's no doubt Metro Boston (Cambridge especially) is a booming hub for biotech, and biotech startups. The biggest in America in fact.



My company moved a ton of our R&D jobs from NJ to that area of MA (granted we also merged with a company several years ago that already had a big research presence in that area of MA which probably made the decision even easier for us).


----------



## deadheadskier (May 27, 2016)

I am aware of the tax incentives BG.  All I said was taxes aren't the only driving factor in what drives growth.


----------



## mbedle (May 27, 2016)

Where are you getting > $1 Billion in tax incentives a year? I'm seeing 25 million in local property tax relief and up to $120 Million in various state benefits.


----------



## yeggous (May 29, 2016)

I know that my employer actively places it's offices where it expects to find the best technology talent. In the USA that means Boston, Chicago, Seattle, and the Bay Area. The tech business is booming and finding an educated workforce is important.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 30, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Where are you getting > $1 Billion in tax incentives a year? I'm seeing 25 million in local property tax relief and up to $120 Million in various state benefits.



In toto.


EDIT:  Oops, I see that I wrote "per year", which is obviously wrong.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 30, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/27/181089/



[h=1]State: SEC Receiver must maintain water system at Jay Peak[/h]May. 27, 2016, 12:01 pm by Anne Galloway 12 Comments















The SEC-appointed receiver told homeowners at the subdivision that Jay Peak could no longer maintain the water system at non cost. Photo courtesy of Steve Baker

_Editor’s note: This story has been updated with new information based on a letter from Michael Goldberg to Jay Peak Subdivision II on May 26. _
For 50 years, second homeowners at a Jay Peak Resort subdivision have had access to free water, but that perk will likely be another casualty of the EB-5 scandal.
Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed Securities and Exchange Commission receiver who is running Jay Peak Resort, told more than 30 homeowners last week that the resort could no longer afford to maintain a water system for them at no cost.
The state says the system must be inspected because tests have shown elevated levels of manganese, a naturally occurring mineral. The cost of cleaning and repairs could be as much as $150,000, Goldberg says.
In a letter to residents, Goldberg said ownership of the water system would be transferred to a homeowners association and residents would need to pay for the maintenance themselves. He gave the residents less than two weeks to find an alternative. In an interview, Goldberg said that he wanted to put residents on notice right away because of potential public health effects, and in retrospect he said the letter was “too harsh.”
“I have no problem giving them more time, I have no problem fixing it, but they have to pay for the maintenance,” Goldberg said. “We’re not a charity where we can afford to incur costs for a bunch of second homeowners at the expense of victims, employees and contractors. We wanted them to know they have to step up and take responsibility. The days of free water, unfortunately, are over. We can’t afford to do that.”
Goldberg said the water system maintenance issue “is purely a money issue.”
“We will not cut off the water, but we put them on notice so that they drink the water voluntarily,” Goldberg said. “I don’t know what the health effects are.”
The financial situation at Jay Peak is “dire,” Goldberg says, and he is trying to identify cost savings in order to stabilize the resort in the aftermath of a massive alleged fraud perpetrated by former owners Ariel Quiros and Bill Stenger.
“I need every dollar to keep this asset open,” Goldberg said. “I am making this decision so we don’t have to shut down the resort. If that happened, home values would collapse. It’s in [residents’] interest to keep the hotel open; it’s in the investors’ interest to keep it open, it’s in employees’ interest to keep it open and it’s in the state’s interest. I need to make the hard decisions.”
The U.S. District Court of South Florida wrested control of the resort away from the Quiros and Stenger on April 13, a day after the SEC filed a lawsuit alleging that the two men had misused $200 million in EB-5 immigrant investor funds. Of that amount, Quiros is accused of stealing $55 million for the purchase of Jay Peak and Burke Mountain resorts and a condo at Trump Tower among other expenditures. As a result of the fraud, 700 investors may not be fully repaid, contractors are owed about $6 million for construction projects, and expensive maintenance projects, including the repair of a tram line, have been deferred.
Steve Baker, one of the second homeowners, says there is “no money to run our well system because it’s in Trump Tower.” Baker says their situation is “trivial” compared with the $2 million owed to DEW Construction, but he said Goldberg’s office jumped the gun and “got the whole neighborhood on the war path” because they think he’s going cut off water to the subdivision.
“I’m not try to paint Goldberg as a bad guy,” Baker said. “But it’s a knee jerk response. It’s an expense, and they’re trying to shed expense very quickly.”
“I think if Goldberg wanted to strike a different tone, we’d all be willing to pay a water fee,” he added. “Or he could pay for legal fees to remove the restrictive covenants so we can drill our own wells.”
Baker says residents are prohibited from drilling their own wells because of a deed restriction and consequently must rely on the resort for water. Under local and state laws, Jay Peak has no alternative except to continue to maintain the system, according to state officials.
The resort owns the subdivision and the water system, according to Ellen Parr Doering, the deputy chief of the state’s water quality division for the Department of Environmental Conservation. Jay Peak holds the state permit for the water system, which is not easily transferrable to another entity, Parr Doering says, and if the resort wants to charge fees for maintaining the tank and piping system, it must obtain approval from the Department of Public Service.
“In the past, Jay Peak operated and maintained the water system for free,” Parr Doering says. “That’s why we have this complication. That’s not typically how it happens. I’m not surprised some of these things have come up. These sorts of handshake deals are a thing of the past.”
In a letter to Goldberg sent on Wednesday, the Department of Environmental Conservation said the receiver must continue maintaining the water system or risk penalty assessments.
The issue has come up before. In 2013, Baker says Bill Stenger, the former CEO of Jay Peak, asked residents to pay $17,000 a year for improvements that he said had been made to the system.
Baker says the system at one point was leaking 16,000 gallons a day (“that’s a small brook”) in one homeowners lawn, and his own yard was declared a wetland in part because of a water system leak.
Baker suggested at an October 2014 meeting that Jay Peak had to go through the Department of Public Service to set water rates. In response, he says Stenger told residents that their deeds stipulated that they form an association and pay for our own water.
“We were saying ‘you want us to pay for a system you don’t maintain?’” Baker recalled.
Baker said none of the residents had seen the requirement in their deeds or closing packages. “He said, then go back and sue your attorneys for missing it at the closing,” Baker recalled. Thirty people hired independent attorneys for the closings and “no one found [the requirement] anywhere.”
Residents subsequently didn’t hear anything about paying for water until Goldberg contacted them last week, Baker says.
On Thursday, Goldberg sent another letter to homeowners, telling them that they drink the water at their own risk. In addition, he urged them to form a homeowners association and reiterated that the resort cannot incur costs related to maintenance and repairs to the water system. Internal memos show that attorneys for the receiver expect the homeowners to pay for the costs up front, rather than billing for reimbursement.


----------



## machski (May 30, 2016)

Hmm, yes home owners should pay into a water system they use.  That said, another crazy law structure in VT for their options.  Unreal.


----------



## halfpintvt (May 31, 2016)

"Federal Judge Orders a Preliminary Injunction Against Quiros"

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/31/federal-judge-orders-preliminary-injunction-against-quiros/


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> "Federal Judge Orders a Preliminary Injunction Against Quiros"
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/31/federal-judge-orders-preliminary-injunction-against-quiros/



This quote was particularly interesting:



> Meanwhile, the overall value of the Jay Peak Resort is significantly lower than an appraisal obtained by Quiros last year, according to the SEC. Quiros maintains Jay Peak is worth close to $87 million, while an economist for the federal regulator estimates the value at $41.6 million, and the SEC says the resort owes $60 million to investors and third parties. Other liabilities include a $7.7 million wastewater treatment facility was never built.
> 
> A spreadsheet showing resort income versus revenue as of February 2016 showed a $6.2 million net income loss for the 2015-2016 ski season, SEC documents show. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization were in the red by about $900,000.


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

http://digital.vpr.net/post/foreign...&mc_cid=9abd972d84&mc_eid=62e7045b13#stream/0


----------



## burski (May 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> This quote was particularly interesting:



So overall Jay is worth $41.6 mil - $67.7 mil of outstanding debt or negative $26.1 mil, add to that, the fact that it looses about $1 mil a year.  It will be interesting to see which mountain (Burke or Jay) is easier to sell.  This does not even touch on Jay's issues with water for property owners, waste water system, erosion that have all been in the news lately.  Seems like the former Jay operators were good at sweeping things under the rug.


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

burski said:


> So overall Jay is worth $41.6 mil - $67.7 mil of outstanding debt or negative $26.1 mil, add to that, the fact that it looses about $1 mil a year.  It will be interesting to see which mountain (Burke or Jay) is easier to sell.  This does not even touch on Jay's issues with water for property owners, waste water system, erosion that have all been in the news lately.  Seems like the former Jay operators were good at sweeping things under the rug.



Yes, I am just learning about all those issues now.  Holy crap.


----------



## mbedle (May 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://digital.vpr.net/post/foreign...&mc_cid=9abd972d84&mc_eid=62e7045b13#stream/0



It was interesting to note that they actually have extra job created from some of the earlier Jay Peak projects.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 31, 2016)

mbedle said:


> It was interesting to note that they actually have extra job created from some of the earlier Jay Peak projects.



It seems as if everything was working fine at first but then they began to run behind with their revenue (hence the start of the Ponzi scheme).


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 31, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It seems as if everything was working fine at first but then they began to run behind with their revenue (hence the start of the Ponzi scheme).


Yep, built too much too fast. Almost unfolding infrastructure-wise as Kingdom-Tele forecast.


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## BenedictGomez (May 31, 2016)

Jay Peak lost > $6M last season?  

Yeah, so much for that theory that the waterpark and ice rink are ginormous cash cows that shield Jay Peak from bad seasons.



<----- Still skeptical about the claimed waterparknomics


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## halfpintvt (Jun 2, 2016)

Court approves Jay Peak Tram repairs.

https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-...and-for-Approval-of-Passenger-Tramway-1-1.pdf


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2016)

halfpintvt said:


> Court approves Jay Peak Tram repairs.
> 
> https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-...and-for-Approval-of-Passenger-Tramway-1-1.pdf



But in the meantime...
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

Looks like the tram will be down until potentially summer of 2017. Anticipated start date for completing the work is between April 1-15, 2017.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Looks like the tram will be down until potentially summer of 2017. Anticipated start date for completing the work is between April 1-15, 2017.



?  

Where do you see that?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

Exhibit 2 of the SEC document. Below is a copy a past from the PDF:

11. General scheduling of works (electrical control upgrade)
It is our main target to accomplish this job within 8 weeks (working weeks). After placing the order a schedule will be fixed (established together by all parties involved to the contract).

PROJECT SCHEDULE

 Sellers Performance Schedule
1. ShipmentofallequipmentfromfactoryinSwitzerland7to9monthsafterreceipt of signed agreement and down payment.
2. InstallationsupervisionasdescribedinExhibit1(8weeks).
3. Subject to Buyer’s timely performance of its duties, including providing adequate site labor and equipment to perform the installation, the planned completion date is June 15, 2017.

Buyers Performance Schedule
1. Providepersonnelandequipmenttoperformthedemolitionandinstallationwork under the supervision of Seller’s personnel. Anticipated start date is between April 1, 2017 and April 15, 2017.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2016)

Wow. That is not a good time table. :???:

Although, I suppose the Face and other summit lines will be awesome for those willing to work for them.


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

I would say that it will have some impact on income for the company over the next year. I also love the engineering report that nails the vertical rise of Jay at 1,953 feet, 200 feet less than they advertise. Given that number and without the tram next season - jay comes in at 1,553 feet of vertical for the 2016/2017 season.


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

Another thing to note is the 4.9 million is not the total costs - the list of work that Jay needs to complete or equipment they must provide is pretty extensive. 

We assume that following works will be carried out by third parties or by the client (Jay Peak Resort):
 Disposal of old equipment
 Exhaust pipe work for the new diesel engines
 Power supply, transformer, main disconnect (existing; suitable for new configuration needs to be checked)
 Installing signal rope (messenger). New signal rope would be laid onto the ground / terrain. If necessary even laid in the ground due to the environmental conditions.
 Civil works (if any), any adaptation of any foundations (if any), architecture works
 Cranes or other hoisting equipment. If Jay Peak Resort has no equipment to hoist the new track rope saddles Doppelmayr/Garaventa needs to be informed. Additional costs may apply (rental and shipping costs of the special tools, e.g. 5 to winches or other equipment)
 Local transports of equipment
 Rope detensioning tools (clamp plates, pulley blocks, slings, others), if required
 Fees for authorities; any taxes / VAT / duties, fees and/or levies that might be imposed outside Switzerland
 Expenses to get the approvals from authorities
 Reconditioning of buildings
 Overhauling of existing equipment (e.g. bearings)
 Safety guards (acc to OHSA)
 Shipping: Import customs clearance and Import taxes (DAP Incoterms 2010)
 All works related to buildings as cable ducts, paint, access doors, fire protection etc.
 Cabin: required modifications for the control rack
 Cables and wiring from transformer (high voltage) to the main switch in the control cabinet (drive room).
 Engineering works and choppers in case of installing of a separate Genset, which supply/energize the main drive (covers a power loss / power outage)
 Any costs due to refusals of authorities or other statutory corporation


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I would say that it will have some impact on income for the company over the next year. I also love the engineering report that nails the vertical rise of Jay at 1,953 feet, 200 feet less than they advertise. Given that number and without the tram next season - jay comes in at 1,553 feet of vertical for the 2016/2017 season.



It has been pretty widely known (at least here on AZ) that the vert stat for Jay is bogus (even with walking up the stairs to the true summit). I still have no idea how they figure the 2,153' stat.


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

I agree - most people did know that on AZ - it was just interesting to see it documented the report from the lift company.


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2016)

After the upgrades the tram capacity will be 45 people per car max (+1 attendant) according to the contract. What was it previously?


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2016)

60


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Wow. That is not a good time table. :???:
> 
> Although, I suppose the Face and other summit lines will be awesome for those willing to work for them.





mbedle said:


> I would say that it will have some impact on income for the company over the next year. I also love the engineering report that nails the vertical rise of Jay at 1,953 feet, 200 feet less than they advertise. Given that number and without the tram next season - jay comes in at 1,553 feet of vertical for the 2016/2017 season.



Wow, just wow.  What a major F-up here.  No surprise....they had no money and were scrambling to hold things together.  They lost sight of the ball.  No Tram would be a major issue.  I guess the next best thing would be to run a snowcat to the top from GMX.  Do they have a snowcat that can ferry folks?


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2016)

Based on the timelines in the contract (7-9 month lead time for parts alone), Jay really would have had to have had the contract signed by the start of this past ski season if they had intended to have the upgrades completed for this coming season. Definitely a major dropping of the ball. Maybe Q thought they could pay off the VT tram division to let them operate another year :grin:


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## drjeff (Jun 2, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> It has been pretty widely known (at least here on AZ) that the vert stat for Jay is bogus (even with walking up the stairs to the true summit). I still have no idea how they figure the 2,153' stat.



They must of used the same ruler they use for some of their storm measurement totals ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Based on the timelines in the contract (7-9 month lead time for parts alone), Jay really would have had to have had the contract signed by the start of this past ski season if they had intended to have the upgrades completed for this coming season. Definitely a major dropping of the ball. Maybe Q thought they could pay off the VT tram division to let them operate another year :grin:



Exactly.  These problems aren't new.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, just wow.  What a major F-up here.  No surprise....they had no money and were scrambling to hold things together.  They lost sight of the ball.  No Tram would be a major issue.  I guess the next best thing would be to run a snowcat to the top from GMX.  Do they have a snowcat that can ferry folks?





There is no cat at Jay with a cabin.  it really sucks for the resort, the cafe is down and ski patrol will have to work from the freezer or mixing bowl shacks.
On the upside the ridge lines will be beautiful all winter all within a short walk for thos inclined, something to look forward to.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> There is no cat at Jay with a cabin.  it really sucks for the resort, the cafe is down and ski patrol will have to work from the freezer or mixing bowl shacks.
> On the upside the ridge lines will be beautiful all winter all within a short walk for thos inclined, something to look forward to.



If I were Steve Wright, I'd be getting on the phone with a place to rent a snowcat with a cab if the Tram can't operate.  In fact, I bet he is doing that now.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 2, 2016)

TB
A lot of balls in the air here, sno cats not on the short list now i'm afraid.
US Porsche parade is in a couple of weeks, tram rides were a part of the draw. all here  are praying for great weather so that this goes well. it is really important to the resort at this point that this event is successful.
can't overstate how important it is.
Dozens of weddings this summer that had ceremonies at the peak and paid big extra money for, now gone. 
Winter is a long ways off here on rt 242 and a lot of us are hoping we get there and that it is really good.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> TB
> A lot of balls in the air here, sno cats not on the short list now i'm afraid.
> US Porsche parade is in a couple of weeks, tram rides were a part of the draw. all here  are praying for great weather so that this goes well. it is really important to the resort at this point that this event is successful.
> can't overstate how important it is.
> ...



Absolutely. My point was more that they were not proactive back when and now it is royally sucking.

Snowbird closed its Tram this spring for major work. They told us all last fall and had a contingency in place and executed quite well I'd say.   They planned ahead and got their ducks in a row.

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Not Sure (Jun 2, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> TB
> A lot of balls in the air here, sno cats not on the short list now i'm afraid.
> US Porsche parade is in a couple of weeks, tram rides were a part of the draw. all here  are praying for great weather so that this goes well. it is really important to the resort at this point that this event is successful.
> can't overstate how important it is.
> ...



How many weddings does it take to pay for the Tram ? 45 people per drops hourly capacity ,seems hard to justify a "Show Piece" Rip it out and do a Quad. Seems the dollars and cents don't add up.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 2, 2016)

excellent point
all lifts at jay are old and some like the flyer have lingering issues. 
The proposed new bonnie chair would have really helped take pressure off
New ownership will be buying these issues.
Lastly lift and other problems were beyond the scope of the lift and mountain ops folks.  They do an amazing job under all conditions.
total awe and respect to them


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> excellent point
> all lifts at jay are old and some like the flyer have lingering issues.
> The proposed new bonnie chair would have really helped take pressure off
> New ownership will be buying these issues.
> ...



Completely agree.  

And as said, a HSQ to the summit is just not feasible given the terrain.  Only option would be a short lift on the former double line to the summit.


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## xlr8r (Jun 2, 2016)

I think this now proves that the incompetence at Jay extended beyond just Quiros and EB5 money.  This is flat out bad planning and organization by Stenger and upper management.  What did they think was gonna happen with the tram issues, did they think they could get away with this just like EB5.  I think the most interesting thing is all these tram issues only became public knowledge after the receiver was put in place.  Seems like they were trying to hide the tram issues from public.


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## zoomzoom (Jun 2, 2016)

oopsie!


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> nasty rumor floating around in some circles that the new vt tram inspector arrived in 2014 and said whisky, tango, ........ you get the idea.



foxtrot? If so, was the prior vt tram inspector incompetent? Or was he being paid off?


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 2, 2016)

The tram was down for weeks during foliage season in 15. routine maintenance plus some extra attention was the word from the mtn.
at this point everyone local knew there was no money, employees groused about not getting needed materials suppllies maintenance, the hole where the rec center was supposed to go and the unfinished condos, plus layoffs of key employees.  Actually I think the feds were nice to wait for april (after skiing) to do the dirty deed


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## mbedle (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> And as said, a HSQ to the summit is just not feasible given the terrain.  Only option would be a short lift on the former double line to the summit.



What terrain issues? I would think that wind might be an issue, up at the peak.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)




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## machski (Jun 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


>



Funny, ever been on one of these?  No way is there enough room at Jay's summit for the top terminal of a Funitel (or a 3S).  Not sure how you'd run a HSQ or HSS either, no real level spot up there for a top detach terminal.  Think about the summit tram terminal, it is bolted to the SIDE of the mountain.  Only a tram can do that folks.


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## mbedle (Jun 3, 2016)

Steamboat - Was that your response to my question about the terrain? Cool lift in the video, but seems to be way over-engineered.


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## Abubob (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm sure I missed something but is it that Stenger and Quiros spent all kinds of money on hotels, waterparks, ripping up downtown Newport when what was really needed was major repair of their signature lift? :blink:


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 3, 2016)

machski said:


> Funny, ever been on one of these?  No way is there enough room at Jay's summit for the top terminal of a Funitel (or a 3S).  Not sure how you'd run a HSQ or HSS either, no real level spot up there for a top detach terminal.  Think about the summit tram terminal, it is bolted to the SIDE of the mountain.  Only a tram can do that folks.



The Euros would disagree.  http://youtu.be/6UXyO8FgFuI


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## fbrissette (Jun 3, 2016)

Abubob said:


> I'm sure I missed something but is it that Stenger and Quiros spent all kinds of money on hotels, waterparks, ripping up downtown Newport when what was really needed was major repair of their signature lift? :blink:



They had no choice.  Had they spent the money to repair to Tram, their EB-5 scam would have collapsed on them earlier.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The Euros would disagree.  http://youtu.be/6UXyO8FgFuI



Impressive. See what happens when you leave the lift design and engineering to the professionals? If you challenge the lift companies to do something, they will find a solution (it may not be cheap though).


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## machski (Jun 3, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The Euros would disagree.  http://youtu.be/6UXyO8FgFuI



Well, the Swiss did just open a 36 mile long train tunnel through the Alps too.  The only thing here is they bolted that station on the side of it to the rock, giving them the needed length for the terminal.  Jay would have to reangle a lift to bolt it to more of the Tuckerman Chutes/Northway side for that to work there.  And lets not forget, the Euros throw up fancy new lifts every year all over the place like they cost $100.00 a piece.  Not the same calculus over here.  (as in, one Funitel and only one 3S in all of North America).


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## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The Euros would disagree.  http://youtu.be/6UXyO8FgFuI


Nice but they claim a funitel lift can operate in winds up to 100mph because of the double cable. The lift you show is only single cable therefore much more susceptible to wind.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


>



There you go.  That would be sweet.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

This is so friggin' ridiculous that they're going to spend $5 MILLION dollars repairing an inefficient 50 year old lift which is a sub-optimal lift strategy, and that will now be operating at 25% decreased capacity once "fixed" to boot.

For similar money they could operate a combo high-speed quad and very short fixed-grip double, which would infinitely improve skiing (or at least allow me to ski the summit more than once or twice a season).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess the next best thing would be to *run a snowcat to the top*



You honestly think the radical eco-extremists in Vermont are going to allow a snowcat to the top?

The eco-extremists will be organizing to shut that down within 48 hours of Jay Peak announcing the plan.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

Last I checked they run a Cat operation at Sugarbush without issue.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Nice but they claim a funitel lift can operate in winds up to 100mph because of the double cable. The lift you show is only single cable therefore much more susceptible to wind.



A 3S gondola = tri-cable


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> There you go.  That would be sweet.


$19 million sweet, that was the price tag for the one at Squaw.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> $19 million sweet, that was the price tag for the one at Squaw.



No shit?  That's a nice lift.  And that was done about 10 years ago.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> A 3S gondola = tri-cable


Yes but only one hanger.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> You honestly think the radical eco-extremists in Vermont are going to allow a snowcat to the top?
> 
> The eco-extremists will be organizing to shut that down within 48 hours of Jay Peak announcing the plan.


Can't really see the difference between that & running multiple groomers at night.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> You honestly think the radical eco-extremists in Vermont are going to allow a snowcat to the top?
> 
> The eco-extremists will be organizing to shut that down within 48 hours of Jay Peak announcing the plan.



Meh, say it will run on bioldiesel and be painted green.  Problem solved.  Or be like Snowbird and "give" the proceeds to an environmental charity.

Plus there is infrastructure at the top that has to be maintained by the State and other private entities (radio stations) so they're going up there as it is.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> No shit?  That's a nice lift.  And that was done about 10 years ago.


1998


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> 1998



So that lift NEW today is going to be significantly more than $19 mil.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So that lift NEW today is going to be significantly more than $19 mil.


I'd imagine.

Here are the capacity stats:

_Squaw Valley Stats_


_28 legal limit (This would be a crazy crush load)_
_18 normal mixed load – 9 seated and 9 standing (this is pretty typical, if there is a small line this is about how many people naturally pack into a car)_
_9 seated comfortably (kids sometimes squeeze 15 but adults who don’t know each other usually won’t sit more than 9)_
_1,296 pphpd seated comfortably_
_2,592 pphpd mixed seated and standing_
_4,032 pphpd official capacity (crush load/legal limit)_
_Cable speed: 6 m/s (or 13.4 mph)_
_Headway: 25 seconds / 150 meters (in practice they space the cabs out a little more than this.)_


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Last I checked they run a Cat operation at Sugarbush without issue.



That's on map though.   I guess as long as they run the cat on the trail itself there wouldn't be a problem.  I was thinking this would involve a freelanced path and/or some minor tree cutting, which I cant imagine them allowing.  

 Regardless, even if they run it on trail, I dont think this is a realistic solution unless you have a bunch of cats.  They only hold about 12 people, right?  So you'd need FIVE cats to replace the prior capacity in getting people to the summit.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh it would be less capacity no doubt, but for those willing to wait it would access the face and give skiers likely less tracked out snow.  Im thinking of an operation kind of like the cat at Aspen Highlands.  Not an ideal option, but better than nothing.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's on map though.   I guess as long as they run the cat on the trail itself there wouldn't be a problem.  I was thinking this would involve a freelanced path and/or some minor tree cutting, which I cant imagine them allowing.
> 
> Regardless, even if they run it on trail, I dont think this is a realistic solution unless you have a bunch of cats.  They only hold about 12 people, right?  So you'd need FIVE cats to replace the prior capacity in getting people to the summit.



Right...wouldn't be economical at all. Sugarbush only uses the cat for special stuff (first tracks powder runs before the lifts open, sunset rides to the summit, etc).

Belleayare used to have a cat shuttle people along the ridge to the Cathedral brook trail. That was kind of neat...but also not a terribly long ride and it only accessed one trail so you didn't need much capacity.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Right...wouldn't be economical at all. Sugarbush only uses the cat for special stuff (first tracks powder runs before the lifts open, sunset rides to the summit, etc).
> 
> Belleayare used to have a cat shuttle people along the ridge to the Cathedral brook trail. That was kind of neat...but also not a terribly long ride and it only accessed one trail so you didn't need much capacity.



It would be a temporary stop-gap measure.  Not ideal, but the "Jay Marketing" machine would spin it EXACTLY as DHS said (a "special" opportunity")


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

What's the thinking on what this does to skiing next season?  

A) Obnoxiously crowded lines, as the hundreds of folks normally on the Tram line will be on some other line.
B) Less crowded lines because some people will skip Jay altogether next season due to no summit skiing
C) Little to no impact as A & B partially offset each other 
D) Other


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## mbedle (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What's the thinking on what this does to skiing next season?
> 
> A) Obnoxiously crowded lines, as the hundreds of folks normally on the Tram line will be on some other line.
> B) Less crowded lines because some people will skip Jay altogether next season due to no summit skiing
> ...



how crowded is the tram at Jay Peak? Is it like a lift line sometimes or just in the earlier morning for first run? Don't ski there, so not sure without it, how many people it will throw into the other lift lines.  Also guessing that they will down play the tram is not operational next season and just let some unsuspecting people find out when they arrive for there trip. In other words, I think they just might state each day on the daily report that the tram is not running, instead of coming out and saying that it will not run for the entire season.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

D. Little to no impact because you are only reducing overall uphill capacity by 2.8%.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> D. Little to no impact because you are only reducing overall uphill capacity by 2.8%.



Yep.  

I still think that they rent a cat or do "something" to fill the void if the Tram does not run.  You can't have it just "not" run and not open that terrain.


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## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> D. Little to no impact because you are only reducing overall uphill capacity by 2.8%.



The reduction in overall uphill capacity isn't necessarily equal to the impact on other lifts though. If a certain number of people were always waiting in line at the tram and now are in line at other lifts, the impact will be bigger than just a 2.8% reduction in lift capacity. While those people were waiting in line for the tram they were essentially "off the mountain". (Hopefully what I mean comes across as it makes sense in my head but I'm having a hard time explaining it in words).


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## cdskier (Jun 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.
> 
> I still think that they rent a cat or do "something" to fill the void if the Tram does not run.  You can't have it just "not" run and not open that terrain.



Run a cat but charge extra for it and tout it as a unique "one-of-a-kind experience" to limited access terrain.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2016)

cdskier said:


> The reduction in overall uphill capacity isn't necessarily equal to the impact on other lifts though. If a certain number of people were always waiting in line at the tram and now are in line at other lifts, the impact will be bigger than just a 2.8% reduction in lift capacity. While those people were waiting in line for the tram they were essentially "off the mountain". (Hopefully what I mean comes across as it makes sense in my head but I'm having a hard time explaining it in words).



Oh, no doubt. You make perfect sense.  And those folks most likely will get concentrated on Flyer, Bonnie and Jet; not all the lifts that make up the remaining capacity.  It will have an impact, but not the same as a higher capacity lift going down.  

 Even if the Tram effectively absorbs double the amount of people than its capacity at say 700 skiers an hour instead of 360, I wouldn't think that amount of skiers would have that great of an impact when spread across the remaining lifts.  The Flyer will likely take the brunt of the increase and the result may end up being people adjusting how they ski the mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Run a cat but charge extra for it and tout it as a unique "one-of-a-kind experience" to limited access terrain.



Yep. For " this season only". Special limited time offer.


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## drjeff (Jun 3, 2016)

An interesting comment from an industry guy over on snow journal about some potential "door opening" for the Tram to run both this summer and next winter as the entire upgrade process takes place IN STAGES....

http://www.snowjournal.com/discussion/725/jay-peak-tram#latest


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## machski (Jun 3, 2016)

I still love how the state says it has been carrying too much weight since 1966 but is most concerned with the carriages which are considerably newer (the original cars and carriages were retired in the late 90's IIRC).  If they are concerned about overweight, shouldn't they be worried about track rope anchor points and the towers, maybe even more so than the carriages.  Something just doesn't add up for me with this.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 3, 2016)

machski said:


> I still love how the state says it has been carrying too much weight since 1966 but is most concerned with the carriages which are considerably newer (the original cars and carriages were retired in the late 90's IIRC).  If they are concerned about overweight, shouldn't they be worried about track rope anchor points and the towers, maybe even more so than the carriages.  Something just doesn't add up for me with this.



The carriages are original.  From Garaventa's engineering assessment: "the carriage, in operation since 1966, has accomplished approximately 350’000 to 400’000 trips.  Last known overhaul of the carriages was done in 2000.  Doppelmayr/Garaventa specifies at least a 6-year interval to overhaul the carriage (complete disassembling). If cracks, deformations or any other anomalies are detected the interval goes down to 4 years or even less."


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 3, 2016)

cdskier said:


> *The reduction in overall uphill capacity isn't necessarily equal to the impact on other lifts* though. If a certain number of people were always waiting in line at the tram and now are in line at other lifts, the impact will be bigger than just a 2.8% reduction in lift capacity. While those people were waiting in line for the tram they were essentially "off the mountain". (*Hopefully what I mean comes across as it makes sense in my head but I'm having a hard time explaining it in words*).



Yes, that's exactly how I'm thinking about it, from the enjoyment factor and the "hampering of other lift lines" factor, because there are often a few hundred people in that Pirates of the Caribbean tram line. Nobody from this website mind you, but there are tons of people on that tram line.



deadheadskier said:


> * The Flyer will likely take the brunt of the increase* and the result may end up being people adjusting how they ski the mountain.



Without a doubt, and there are already times when that line gets ugly.  I wouldnt even contemplate skiing Jay next year during holidays because of this.  And I already avoid Canuck break there, but that's an obvious no-go too.



crystalmountainskier said:


> The carriages are original.  From Garaventa's engineering assessment: "the carriage, in operation since 1966, has accomplished approximately 350’000 to 400’000 trips.*  Last known overhaul of the carriages was done in 2000.*  Doppelmayr/Garaventa *specifies at least a 6-year interval to overhaul the carriage* (complete disassembling). If cracks, deformations or any other anomalies are detected the interval goes down to 4 years or even less."



Interesting info, but net/net, any way you slice it State of Vermont wasn't doing its' job.  

Can you imagine if god forbid there was an accident with that thing?  Beyond the human tragedy, I imagine the legal repercussions would have been absolutely staggering had that thing gone down with 50 or 60 people on it.


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## benski (Jun 3, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Interesting info, but net/net, any way you slice it State of Vermont wasn't doing its' job.
> 
> Can you imagine if god forbid there was an accident with that thing?  Beyond the human tragedy, I imagine the legal repercussions would have been absolutely staggering had that thing gone down with 50 or 60 people on it.



I would assumes The way the weight capacity of a tram recently changed.


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## zoomzoom (Jun 3, 2016)

let's hope the original 1966 concrete is assessed as "adequate for the loads.

"A civil engineer need to establish an Engineering assessment for the foundations. As soon as 
Garaventa receives the order for this contract, we start with the recalculation to provide the 
reaction loads onto the foundations. At that time together, the civil engineer and our steel 
structure specialist can define the way to upgrade anchor fixations." 

the 4.9m quote has exclusions, very expensive and all on jay.

one in particular may be problematic, that is ensuring the entire system constructed in 1966 will be in compliance with current regs.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2016)

One idea, could they put in a cheap T-bar where the double was? Could cost $500K or in that neighborhood. Almost leave the tram for the new owners to deal with. Otherwise, if they do nothing, how do season pass holders feel knowing they were screwed over and lied to?


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## machski (Jun 4, 2016)

So now we know they hung shinny new boxes on a system they did nothing to upgrade.  I am amazed whoever they contracted to build the new trams and arms was willing to just hang them on the original carriages.  Nuts.  Maybe the better solution is a gondolla up the tram line to the ridge that is Northway and end it there.  Then run a jig back Tram (like snowbasin or big Sky's) from there to the summit tram station.  That set up would allow for multi season use of the summit.


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## xlr8r (Jun 4, 2016)

machski said:


> So now we know they hung shinny new boxes on a system they did nothing to upgrade.  I am amazed whoever they contracted to build the new trams and arms was willing to just hang them on the original carriages.  Nuts.  Maybe the better solution is a gondolla up the tram line to the ridge that is Northway and end it there.  Then run a jig back Tram (like snowbasin or big Sky's) from there to the summit tram station.  That set up would allow for multi season use of the summit.



I think long term something like that makes sense, although I don't think building a gondola is needed when the Freezer is already there.  If I were the new owners Jay planning long term, I would remove the Tram and demolish the Sky Haus.  I would replace the Bonaventure quad with a detach lift, probably a quad do to the low trail capacity.  I would build a new lodge similar to the new Peak Lodge at Killington on the saddle area between the top of Bonaventure chair and Northway.  Then build a mini tram like those at Snowbasin and Big Sky to the peak from the new lodge to give Jay still a tram and still a signature low capacity lift to the summit, just on a smaller scale..  

Keeping the Sky Haus without the existing Tram doesn't make sense, it is a giant eyesore on the peak similar to the old Peak Lodge at Killington once that gondola was removed.  And the current lodge/food space in it is not very big to begin with.  The saddle area makes more sense for a lodge as it could be accessed from both the Freezer and Bonaventure Chairs.  And if the Bonaventure chair is upgraded to a detach, they could put gondola cabins on it at night and in the summer for public access similar to how Winter Park and Wildcat switch out chairs for gondola cabins.  

This would cost a lot of money, so no way anything like this happens until Jay is sold.  I do think maybe the receiver should hold off on any upgrades to the tram until Jay is sold.  Having a 50 year old tram with only a 45 person capacity doesn't make much sense going forward.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2016)

What Jay needs is a roller coaster to compliment the water park.


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## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2016)

drjeff said:


> An interesting comment from an industry guy over on snow journal about some potential "door opening" for the Tram to run both this summer and next winter as the entire upgrade process takes place IN STAGES....
> 
> http://www.snowjournal.com/discussion/725/jay-peak-tram#latest



The receiver, at the homeowner meeting yesterday, pretty much guaranteed that the Tram will be back running within a couple of weeks and that they would run it through the winter while doing the needed work.


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## bigbog (Jun 5, 2016)

machski said:


> So now we know they hung shinny new boxes on a system they did nothing to upgrade.  I am amazed whoever they contracted to build the new trams and arms was willing to just hang them on the original carriages....



What, shoddy work to cut corners...between business and state government? = tradition.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> The receiver, at the homeowner meeting yesterday, pretty much guaranteed that the Tram will be back running within a couple of weeks and that they would run it through the winter while doing the needed work.



How can that be? 


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> How can that be?


You haven't been staying up on what the media is reporting.  The state has made it clear that the tram can start running once they have a legally binding contract for the maintenance work - with terms and a schedule that the state has approved.  This has been reported for a couple of days now.

It was also right there in the Findings and Order for Corrective Action that issued from the state.  (That's the document that started this mess.)  The Order says: "The following work must be satisfactorily completed, or otherwise approved before operating the Tram:"


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You haven't been staying up on what the media is reporting.  The state has made it clear that the tram can start running once they have a legally binding contract for the maintenance work - with terms and a schedule that the state has approved.



So glad the state cares so much about safety that they will let it run as long as a contract is signed that says it will be fixed in the future!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You haven't been staying up on what the media is reporting.  The state has made it clear that the tram can start running once they have a legally binding contract for the maintenance work - with terms and a schedule that the state has approved.  This has been reported for a couple of days now.
> 
> It was also right there in the Findings and Order for Corrective Action that issued from the state.  (That's the document that started this mess.)  The Order says: "The following work must be satisfactorily completed, or otherwise approved before operating the Tram:"



Where are you seeing that? The BFP, VTD, and the actual order seem pretty clear. Plus the nature of the issues (carriages and foundations) are pretty serious. 


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Where are you seeing that? The BFP, VTD, and the actual order seem pretty clear. Plus the nature of the issues (carriages and foundations) are pretty serious.


Here is a link to the State's Order: https://liftblog.com/2016/06/02/state-of-vermont-orders-jay-peak-tram-closed/

I agree.  The Order is clear.  The work must be completed "or otherwise approved."  

But this is old news.  The state has confirmed this ever since it was mis-reported that the tram could not operate until the work was done.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2016)

Here's the order.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/

The final two paragraphs pretty clearly require the work to be completed to the State's satisfaction before opening.

Yes, the order earlier does leave a little bit of wiggle room, and I'm sure Jay will try to negotiate. A handful do share your thoughts that they will get a "work approved", but done later, compromise, but I am skeptical. 


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## xlr8r (Jun 5, 2016)

Imagine the lawsuits if the tram operates again and has an accident before the repair work is complete.  This doesn't make any sense.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2016)

From the June 3rd Caledonian Record:

"All repairs and preparations for other upgrades will be in place by the time that state inspectors come to the resort to load-test and approve the work schedule, allowing the tram to operate for the summer season, hopefully beginning in mid-June, Wright said."

“I believe that Jay Peak management intends to provide the receiver with a copy of the order and seek permission to enter into contracts to get the required work done,” Monahan stated.
Monahan detailed a list of work and documents that must be “completed or otherwise approved” before the tram can operate again. Wright said that some of the work has to be in progress for the tram to be allowed to operate. The state Passenger Tramway program engineers want to see details about the design, load information, tower structure drawings and manuals."

Monahan is in charge of the Safety Division of the Department of Labor.

So, again... this information has been out there for a couple of days.  Since I am checking in much less frequently I didn't have a chance to point this out.

I'm not willing to accuse Wright of lying.  In any event, Monahan wrote the order and he says that as long as some of the work is in progress, the tram will be allowed to operate.  That's from the author's mouth.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the order.
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...tate-orders-jay-peak-tram-shut-down/85299034/
> 
> ...



Word here is that the contract is signed.
Load test is in a week (it is done 2x annually normally)
it can run if it passes and the work upgrade will start incrementally with the big work in spring 17.

that tram has been subjected to multiple inspections examinations  and testing by engineers-mechanics and inspectors from everywhere.  I don't have a problem riding it til the upgrade.

the new management group is getting a lot of work done here.  employees are upbeat and things are looking better weekly.  Huge sighs of relief, this winter will be good at the Peak


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## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> the new management group is getting a lot of work done here.  employees are upbeat and things are looking better weekly.  Huge sighs of relief, this winter will be good at the Peak



My feeling from yesterday's homeowner meeting is that indeed things are heading in the right direction.  Really looking forward to next winter.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2016)

I'm glad that the tram message is straightened out and that some positive news is being spread.  Go Jay!


.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm glad that the tram message is straightened out and that some positive news is being spread.  Go Jay!
> 
> 
> .



VTK,

the support and good wishes are most appreciated.
Both the trajectory for Burke and Jay are excellent.
the experience of the  receiver  and the unbelievably greatskills and kindness of the interim management group are quite apparent.
Thank goodness, NEK gets the karma it's earned


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> * If I were the new owners Jay planning long term, I would remove the Tram and demolish the Sky Haus.*



This.   It's so obvious.  

The problem is, there are no "new owners", and the management company is only incentivized to keep the place going, not to upgrade it.

  But pouring all these millions of dollars into repairing a 50+ year old technology that is now going to be 25% LESS efficient than even its' prior already inefficient iteration makes absolutely no sense.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 6, 2016)

I can understand why they want to keep it, but it really doesn't make any sense to spend that kind of money for something that only is going to move probably 270 people per hour up the hill.


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## drjeff (Jun 6, 2016)

I think the Tram will be fixed and stay for much of the exact same reasons why Mad River Glen spent the $$ to overhaul the single a few years back.  

First it's really one of the few "iconic" lifts in the East and that DOES have some marketing value and helps distinguish Jay from all other Eastern resorts less Cannon.  Second, just like what MRG wanted to do with keeping capacity limited for snow quality on terrain that really can't take the kinds of "assaults" that say 1200/1500/1800+ people an hour that either a fixed grip or detachable lift could send up there.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2016)

The Tram is not anywhere near as iconic as the Mad River Single chair.   Not even close (frankly, I don't even consider the Jay Tram iconic at all). 

 In terms of marketing value, I've never heard anyone land on Jay Peak as their vacation choice due to the tram.  But if it perhaps does admittedly has some slight value in that regard, it certainly costs them _more_ by those of the opinion that it's toxic, and now, remarkably it's going to be "25% worse".   I very much doubt if Jay Peak had an acquirer with reasonable funding capabilities, that they would "invest" roughly $5 Million into this aged relic, which will now be 25% poorer than before. It was bad enough running at 100%.

EDIT:   It's probably pretty apparent I'm having a hard time fathoming all of this.


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## oldtimer (Jun 6, 2016)

Here is a different way to look at it:  The receiver's job is to maximize the SALE PRICE of an asset he is working to sell ASAP.  Let us assume that the word that they are spreading is true, i.e. with the $5 million plan they WILL have the tram running for the upcoming season and maybe this summer.  To sell the asset he needs to be able to convince someone that there is a viable business model & part of that convincing is clearly happy stakeholders.  These include the current property owners, season ticket holders and the locals.  Next summer he may be showing potential buyers around and he can say-  a)  "It is all working, and we have a loyal and happy customer base."   OR b) "Well,  we didn't feel the tram was worth $5 mil & yea, some people are bitching, but really, this will be better for you the potential buyer in the long term."

Cash is not really his problem today-  if he can convince the judge, then they seem to be able to access what cash is available in the Q assets & maybe borrow against whatever equity exists.  

This company is not in the ski business, nor even the report improvement business.  They are in the business of polishing the chrome, getting smiles on the customers and getting out of dodge w/o doing any damage.  

Would I do it under those circumstances?   maybe.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 7, 2016)

It looks like the tram won't be operating next week, but next winter is definitely doable:
http://vtdigger.org/2016/06/07/federal-court-approves-4-9m-for-jay-peak-tram/


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 7, 2016)

If Jay ditched the tram, the name of the Tram House Lodge wouldn't make sense anymore and neither would referring to that base area as "tramside".
BG might not think the Tram as iconic. Sure it is not as iconic as the single chair is among skiers but I'm sure there are a lot more non-skiers that can associate the tram with Jay than there are that even know that Mad River has a "single"-chair. 

And as others have pointed out, the limited summit terrain can barely support the traffic the tram drops off up there. I say it is worth the investment to preserve it.


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## fbrissette (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Sure it is not as iconic as the single chair is among skiers but I'm sure there are a lot more non-skiers that can associate the tram with Jay than there are that even know that Mad River has a "single"-chair.



I would say that 99% of people who ski in Quebec (Montreal being the largest urban center close to MRG) have never heard of MRG, let alone that they have a single chair.  A single chair is not iconing.  It is a remnant of the past.   It's not a different experience than a double.   

I have had lots of urban skiers (you know, not real skiers) who visited at Jay and the Tram is always one of the highlight of their visit.  Does it make financial sense ?   I don't know, but it's definitely part of the Jay experience.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2016)

I messaged Jay. They said a chair would never run on that exposure.  A smaller gondola that could tolerate the wind (I assume two cable) was priced out at one point as a potential replacement for the Tram and the cost was double  maintaining what they have.

For those people so upset about the lift, ride the Flyer and walk/skin the 10-15 minutes to the top from there.  Not that big of a deal


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## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> A single chair is not iconing.  It is a remnant of the past. *  It's not a different experience than a double.*


I'll have to disagree with you on that.


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## tree_skier (Jun 7, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I'll have to disagree with you on that.



Second that... All you need to do is ride sunnyside then the single and see the Difference in the ride


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## fbrissette (Jun 7, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I'll have to disagree with you on that.



I've ridden the Tremblant single for several years and everybody was happy when they replaced it by a double.  It's just me, but freezing your butt alone and doubling the wait time ain't much of an experience.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I've ridden the Tremblant single for several years and everybody was happy when they replaced it by a double.  It's just me, but freezing your butt alone and doubling the wait time ain't much of an experience.


That's not what I was addressing. I was just saying it's a different experience than riding a double. As for wait time it's a trade off. Less people going up the mountain means less people coming down. Makes no difference I'm just as cold on a single, double, triple, quad or six.


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## tree_skier (Jun 7, 2016)

myself Love the peace and solitude the single brings.  In all fairness have only been to MRG midweek and the longest line i have stood in is maybe 15 people and half of that was a group i was skiing with.


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## crank (Jun 7, 2016)

MRG single chair is iconic.  MRG does not do a lot of marketing so it is not surprising that a lot of folks are not familiar.  MRG is not for everyone and they know it and embrace it.  

The point is that there are fewer skiers chewing up the snow.  I never ski MRG on the weekends because of the lift line.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> This company is not in the ski business, nor even the report improvement business.*  They are in the business of polishing the chrome, getting smiles on the customers and getting out of dodge w/o doing any damage.  *



Exactly.  Which is why that ~$5M will be spent to fix an inefficient tram that will now be (tough to imagine) 25% less efficient.



from_the_NEK said:


> * If Jay ditched the tram, the name of the Tram House Lodge wouldn't make sense anymore* and neither would referring to that base area as "tramside".



So you rename the building.  LOL.  Who the heck cares what the building it called?  Call it the "Ponzi Palace".  That's fitting.



from_the_NEK said:


> I'm sure *there are a lot more non-skiers that can associate the tram with Jay than there are that even know that Mad River has a "single"-chair. *



I highly doubt it to the point I'd put money on it if I could.  Down here, for instance, nobody has even heard of Jay Peak. Blank stares. Wouldnt even know what it is.  Most people at least know that Mad River Glen is a ski mountain, and many can even recite "Ski It If You Can" due to their multi-decade marketing, tee-shirts, bumper stickers all over.




tree_skier said:


> Second that..



Third.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

crank said:


> I never ski MRG on the weekends because of the lift line.


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## abc (Jun 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I highly doubt it to the point I'd put money on it if I could.  Down here, for instance, nobody has even heard of Jay Peak. Blank stares. Wouldnt even know what it is.  Most people at least know that Mad River Glen is a ski mountain, and many can even recite "Ski It If You Can" due to their multi-decade marketing, tee-shirts, bumper stickers all over.


"Down here" you mean metro NY/NJ area, it's not even Jay's target audience. 

Jay is a whole lot closer to Montreal, and more reasonably accessible from Boston. From New York/New Jersey? Forget about it!


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## mister moose (Jun 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> But pouring all these millions of dollars into repairing a 50+ year old technology that is now going to be 25% LESS efficient than even its' prior already inefficient iteration makes absolutely no sense.



Minor point, but why does 25% less efficient keep getting bantered about?  The normal car will still take 60, and the water tank car is the one reduced to 45 for the weight of the tank, correct?  So it will be 12.5% less efficient?


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2016)

mister moose said:


> Minor point, but why does 25% less efficient keep getting bantered about?  The normal car will still take 60, and the water tank car is the one reduced to 45 for the weight of the tank, correct?  So it will be 12.5% less efficient?



No...based on what is written in the contract the new limit will be 45.

Here's the section from the contract:


> A new carriage will weigh more than the existing one. The weight of the loaded carrier will be
> no more than 8’137 kg (17’939 lbs.). Why 8’137 kg? Original design load plus 3%. That is the
> acceptable tolerance range.
> The weight of the cabin and hanger is 2’439 kg. The new carriage weighs approx. 2’150 kg.
> ...


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## mister moose (Jun 7, 2016)

So either I missed that, or it's new information.  What I remember reading was that the Tram had been operating overweight due to the weight of the water tank, and capacity would be reduced.  Now the requirement is both to remove the water tank for passenger operations, and reduce the capacity. This is after inspect/repair the footings, towers, anchors, basically everything.  So where is the reason for the load capacity reduction coming from if the design load remains the same?  The carriers are heavier to carry the same load as the old ones?


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2016)

Based on the weights listed, after subtracting the weight of the cabin, hanger, and carrier you are left with a max of 3548 kg (7822 lbs) for load. To get to the 46 number, it looks like they are using an estimate of 170 lbs/person (and that needs to include the weight of skis).


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 7, 2016)

abc said:


> "Down here" you mean metro NY/NJ area, it's not even Jay's target audience.
> 
> Jay is a whole lot closer to Montreal, and more reasonably accessible from Boston. From New York/New Jersey? Forget about it!



Exactly what I was going to say. 
How many people in Vermont, New Hampshire, or Maine know or care that there is (or was?) a chairlift along the boardwalk in Atlantic City. No less one doesn't even serve any vertical drop!


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 7, 2016)

cdskier said:


> it looks like they are using an estimate of 170 lbs/person (and that needs to include the weight of skis).


170 average may sound low but there are often a lot of (sub-100lbs) kids on there too.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2016)

abc said:


> "Down here" you mean metro NY/NJ area, it's not even Jay's target audience.
> 
> Jay is a whole lot closer to Montreal, and more reasonably accessible from Boston. From New York/New Jersey? Forget about it!



Exactly correct; which is why it's not iconic.  

 People in Florida have never heard of Jay Peak either, but many know that Mad River Glen is a ski resort.


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> 170 average may sound low but there are often a lot of (sub-100lbs) kids on there too.



You're absolutely right that kids help balance it out, but that number is actually a bit concerning when you think about it for the times there aren't a lot of kids. I'm pretty much right at the average and know many people that are certainly heavier than me. This could be some sort of industry standard number that is always used though, so I'm just going to assume/hope the people that wrote the contract know what they are doing.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Exactly correct; which is why it's not iconic.
> 
> People in Florida have never heard of Jay Peak either, but many know that Mad River Glen is a ski resort.



Bad choice of State.

Thanks to Ariel Quiros and Bill Stenger, a shit load of people in Florida have now heard of Jay Peak.   Notwithstanding the SEC case filed in Florida, you forget that there are around 500000 (yes 500k) French Canadians vacationing or taking winter residence in Florida (I'm not sure why but that's beside the point).

And to think that Floridians know about Mad River Glen is absurd.  Most of them barely know what snow is.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> you forget that there are *around 500000 (yes 500k) French Canadians vacationing or taking winter residence in Florida* (I'm not sure why but that's beside the point).



Because Canadians think that if you're good, when you die you go to Florida.  



fbrissette said:


> And *to think that Floridians know about Mad River Glen is absurd. * Most of them barely know what snow is.



I'm fairly certain the majority of readers (like 99.9%) realize this, but the use of "Florida" was meant as a facetious example, and not a metaphysical fact beyond any scrutiny.  

I could just as easily said "Iowa" or "North Carolina" - but the point remains, Mad River Glen as a ski area is far more well-known than Jay Peak, local geographical biases notwithstanding.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2016)

Can someone remind me again why we are comparing lifts at Jay and MRG and even more so why it matters which lift is more iconic, (which is a fairly incalculable metric)?

Two completely different lifts with different business plans at two different resorts that couldn't be any more different other than residing in the same state.


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## jaytrem (Jun 7, 2016)

Two of my neighbors in NJ went to Jay in the last couple years (not together).  Both families that do the once a year ski trip. They both mentioned the water park.  I'm not sure how they initially learned about Jay, could be word of mouth or marketing.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 7, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Can someone remind me again why we are comparing lifts at Jay and MRG and even more so why it matters which lift is more iconic, (which is a fairly incaluable metric)?
> 
> Two completely different lifts with different business plans at two different resorts that couldn't be any more different other than residing in the same state.



Because BG is bound and determined to convince everyone that the tram at Jay is the stupidest thing ever and that we are idiots for thinking otherwise. 
If people in Jersey haven't heard about it, it must be it doesn't exist right?


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2016)

Of course!


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## LONGBOARDR (Jun 7, 2016)

Jeez,

A lot of Sturm and Drang about an inanimate object.
Yes the tram is not efficient and is costing a lot of money to fix.
But since expansion, it is used by many visitors year round whether they are skiers, water parkers, golfers, hockey people or leaf peepers.  Additionally it is nice that physically challenged people riding the tram get to see what all of us may take for granted from time to time.  A beautiful mountain range and incredible views.

Jay is on the mend, el nino is dying and it will be a good winter in the east, enjoy.


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## dlague (Jun 7, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Jeez,
> 
> A lot of Sturm and Drang about an inanimate object.
> Yes the tram is not efficient and is costing a lot of money to fix.
> ...



Good points!  It is a hallmark of sorts for them.


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## drjeff (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Because BG is bound and determined to convince everyone that the tram at Jay is the stupidest thing ever and that we are idiots for thinking otherwise.
> If people in Jersey haven't heard about it, it must be it doesn't exist right?



From the NEK beat me to this sentiment - the fact that BG admitted a page or 2 ago that his brain likely can't realistically grasp the big picture concept here, also helps explain the tangential nature of this thread recently


----------



## JimG. (Jun 7, 2016)

I thought New Yorkers retired in Florida, not Canadians.


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## freeski (Jun 7, 2016)

If you refurbish a tram don't they last for another 20 years or more. Spend the money fix the tram. Why don't they just pump water up and hold it in a tank?


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Because BG is bound and determined to convince everyone that the tram at Jay is the stupidest thing ever



To be fair, I dont think I need to convince_ that_ many people that it's an inefficient waste of $5M in capital.  Sadly, it's really the only thing that can be done at the moment due to the disaster wrought by "EB-5 disaster Ponzi", but that's still an unfortunate outcome that will likely seal the fate of sub-optimal skiing for several additional decades.  It's a shame; period.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> 170 average may sound low but there are often a lot of (sub-100lbs) kids on there too.


The U.S. Coast Guard now uses an average of 180lbs per person when figuring how many people a passenger carrying vessel may carry. Now if they would all be Moochele it would be more. Eat a carrot.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 7, 2016)

JimG. said:


> I thought New Yorkers retired in Florida, not Canadians.


No Senior.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> The U.S. Coast Guard now uses an average of 180lbs per person when figuring how many people a passenger carrying vessel may carry. Now if they would all be Moochele it would be more. Eat a carrot.



For comparison the Jackson Hole tram capacity is 19,709 lbs/100+1 = 195 lbs. per person.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> To be fair, I dont think I need to convince_ that_ many people that it's an inefficient waste of $5M in capital.



Apparently you missed the part where I actually had a conversation with Jay and the response was -

A. A chair would never run in the wind they get at that exposure 

B. A replacement Gondola was priced out at $10M.  Not sure what model, but it was deemed even more cost prohibitive.

C.  Their marketing department thinks it has value.  I'd say they probably know a little bit more about their clientele being up there 365 days a year and having hundreds of thousands of people come through their doors annually whom they get feedback from.  I think they have a bit better idea about what's good for their resort than some guy in New Jersey.

Like I said, the Flyer brings you within a fairly easy walk.  It's not like you're missing that much terrain if you don't want to walk up that 10-15 minutes.  While many might agree it's a lousy lift situation, you're voice/whine knob is turned up to 11 on the issue when most of the rest of us are like..."meh."


----------



## cdskier (Jun 8, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> For comparison the Jackson Hole tram capacity is 19,709 lbs/100+1 = 195 lbs. per person.



That's interesting...wonder why they are using 170 as the baseline for the Jay tram then. 195 seems more reasonable to me.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 8, 2016)

cdskier said:


> That's interesting...wonder why they are using 170 as the baseline for the Jay tram then. 195 seems more reasonable to me.



Is it possible that the Jackson tram capacity is dictated by size and not weight?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2016)

I'm rooting for Jay, but I wouldn't assume that management at Jay always knows best about making capital investments.  They lost several million last year despite millions upon millions of "free" dollars spent on capital improvements.  

As an example, here is a picture of the Pump House taken over the weekend:



Has anyone thought about a t-bar to the summit?  I know that people want more creature comforts these days, and that weddings will be impacted, but it's a lot cheaper.

My biggest item on the wish-list is an improvement to the Bonnie quad.


----------



## tree_skier (Jun 8, 2016)

forget a chair put in a T-Bar to the top.  No wind holds on one of those


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## JPTracker (Jun 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm rooting for Jay, but I wouldn't assume that management at Jay always knows best about making capital investments.  They lost several million last year despite millions upon millions of "free" dollars spent on capital improvements.



Jay did not loose several million last year. They actually made a profit. Wherever you read that they misquoted the numbers.

 If Jay was not profitable then the receiver would just shut them down and sell off the assets. They would not put putting more money back into it. After all they make their money when Jay is finally sold. The more it is sold for the more they get.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

I recall reading about an alarmingly small profit, (the # $1.6M sticks in my head for some reason), but a profit none the less.


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## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> forget a chair put in a T-Bar to the top.  No wind holds on one of those




Unless you run the T-Bar along northway, in which case you lose the only EZ run from the top.  I don't think it's possible to run a T-bar to the top.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I recall reading about an alarmingly small profit, (the # $1.6M sticks in my head for some reason), but a profit none the less.



According to the receiver, the last fiscal year ran a profit of 2.6M.   The losses reported in some newspaper pertain only to the upcoming  off-season.  Considering last winter, I think this is highly positive, especially considering management was focused on development and not operations.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm rooting for Jay, but I wouldn't assume that management at Jay always knows best about making capital investments.  They lost several million last year despite millions upon millions of "free" dollars spent on capital improvements.
> 
> As an example, here is a picture of the Pump House taken over the weekend:
> 
> ...



What's wrong with the Bonnie ?

That pic above must have been taken either at opening or closing.  I was at the homeowner BBQ Saturday evening and the waterpark was very well attended.  Not packed, bit nothing like your pic.


----------



## abc (Jun 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm fairly certain the majority of readers (like 99.9%) realize this, but the use of "Florida" was meant as a facetious example, and not a metaphysical fact beyond any scrutiny.
> 
> I could just as easily said "Iowa" or "North Carolina" - but the point remains, Mad River Glen as a ski area is far more well-known than Jay Peak, local geographical biases notwithstanding.


facetious is correct. NY/NJ skiers don't give a damn about mountains north of Killington!

MRG is only well-known because of all the controversy due to its ban on snowboarding. There's nothing "iconic" about its single chair. Many skiers don't even know about that particular fact. 

Similarly, a good larger portion of NY/NJ skiers don't know about Sugarbush either. They may have heard of Stowe remotely, albeit being a nice resort that's out of reach. Ask them to place Stowe on the map, you'll be surprised. 

In summery, the tram at Jay Peak is no less iconic than the single chair of MRG, which is equally unknown by NY/Nj skiers.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That pic above must have been taken either at opening or closing.  I was at the homeowner BBQ Saturday evening and the waterpark was very well attended.  Not packed, bit nothing like your pic.


The picture was taken about an hour prior to closing time.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> According to the receiver, the last fiscal year ran a profit of 2.6M.   The losses reported in some newspaper pertain only to the upcoming  off-season.  Considering last winter, I think this is highly positive, especially considering management was focused on development and not operations.



If that is the case, then this is good news indeed in light of the weather this past winter.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The picture was taken about an hour prior to closing time.


On Sunday or Saturday?


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## tree_skier (Jun 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Unless you run the T-Bar along northway, in which case you lose the only EZ run from the top.  I don't think it's possible to run a T-bar to the top.



You must be a young un.  The little Pico triple used to be a t-bar.  When you look at that you can run a t-bar anywhere.  cuts down on snowboards and people who shouldn't be there.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

Same line at Pico? Did they build a ramp up the cliff near the top or terminate it lower?   There's no doubt a lot of former surface lifts that went up very steep terrain.  Giant Killer at Pico as well.


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## freeski (Jun 8, 2016)

I guess the judge read my post. $4.9M approved for tram.


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## freeski (Jun 8, 2016)

freeski said:


> If you refurbish a tram don't they last for another 20 years or more. Spend the money fix the tram. Why don't they just pump water up and hold it in a tank?



The judge read my post. $4.9M approved for tram. Thank you judge.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 8, 2016)

abc said:


> Similarly, a good larger portion of NY/NJ skiers don't know about Sugarbush either.



I respectfully disagree...I know many people in NJ/NY that know about Sugarbush. Hell it seems half the people I meet in the Mad River Valley are originally from the NJ/NY area!


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> Jay did not loose several million last year. They actually made a profit. Wherever you read that they misquoted the numbers.
> 
> If Jay was not profitable then the receiver would just shut them down and sell off the assets. They would not put putting more money back into it. After all they make their money when Jay is finally sold. The more it is sold for the more they get.


"Jay’s pretax profits were $2.6 million for FY 2014, $3 million for fiscal year 2015, and through February 2016 appeared to be on track for $1.8 million for FY 2016, Goldberg said."


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Apparently you missed the part where I actually had a conversation with Jay and the response was



Here are my thoughts on that...


A. *A chair would never run in the wind they get at that exposure* .  It used to run many years ago, so what changed?   I'm talking about a quad terminating much lower, and then a very short fixed grip to the top.  This used to exist at Jay Peak, so why cant a short double run to that exposure now?  

B. *A replacement Gondola was priced out at $10M*.  Not sure what model, but it was deemed even more cost prohibitive.  This I agree with.  Bad idea, and would be an absolutely silly waste of money.

C.  *Their marketing department thinks it has value.*  I'd say they probably know a little bit more about their clientele being up there 365 days a year and having hundreds of thousands of people come through their doors annually whom they get feedback from.  I think they have a bit better idea about what's good for their resort than some guy in New Jersey.  The value I place on marketing's opinion regarding cost/benefit analysis on a very significant capital expenditures is only slightly north of the value I'd place on Kim Kardashian's thoughts regarding the matter. This is akin to asking the accounting department its' thoughts on patent law or a technical engineering matter.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

Do we know the track record of that chair running in the wind back in the day was better than the Tram today? That's an awfully big assumption.

Do we know if the process of permitting and installing a new double along the old path + removal of Tram and then installation of a new HSQ would cost more than just fixing the Tram?  Yes, significantly so. The new HSQ you propose alone would likely cost north of $5M; never mind all the other factors. That's probably close to $10M you're proposing.

I can't quantify if I value your opinion better than Kardashian's.  I don't know her well enough.


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## tree_skier (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Same line at Pico? Did they build a ramp up the cliff near the top or terminate it lower?   There's no doubt a lot of former surface lifts that went up very steep terrain.  Giant Killer at Pico as well.



yes ran the same line.  you can still see some of the tower bases.  It was one of those nice cable T's you litterally hung vertically off it and most of the time it was just an ice track.


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## tree_skier (Jun 8, 2016)

forgot to mention that yes you had to swing around some of the obsticles


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 8, 2016)

abc said:


> MRG is only well-known because of all the controversy due to its ban on snowboarding. *There's nothing "iconic" about its single chair. *


    I'm not a big believer that many chairs/lifts are "iconic" to begin with, but if the MRG single chair isnt on that short list, I'm not sure what lift possibly could be.


abc said:


> Similarly, *a good larger portion of NY/NJ skiers don't know about Sugarbush either. They may have heard of Stowe remotely *



Really?   My perception is that pretty much everyone under-the-sun knows that Stowe is a ski resort.  I'd imagine, though I could be wrong, that most people have heard of Sugarbush too.   At least in my nook of New Jersey that's for sure.   And to suggest SKIERS dont know what Sugarbush or Stowe are?   This I massively disagree with.



freeski said:


> I guess the judge read my post. *$4.9M approved* for tram.


  Pretty close to my $5M overrun guess.  Now watch it go even higher than $4.9M.



steamboat1 said:


> "Jay’s* pretax profits were $2.6 million for FY 2014*, *$3 million for fiscal year 2015*, and through February 2016 appeared to be *on track for $1.8 million for FY 2016*, Goldberg said."



Better than a loss, but still absolutely lousy numbers.


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## dlague (Jun 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Here are my thoughts on that...
> 
> 
> A. *A chair would never run in the wind they get at that exposure* .  It used to run many years ago, so what changed?   I'm talking about a quad terminating much lower, and then a very short fixed grip to the top.  This used to exist at Jay Peak, so why cant a short double run to that exposure now?
> ...



I agree with your response to A!  I even mentioned that idea before.  Yes there used to be one long ago but I think a different placement (more centralized would be great) - the whole wedding argument well, I am not sure - keeping the tram does have merit.  I would like to see both but that will never happen since it would allow people to lap that chair to ski Green Beret, Valhalla, and the chutes and they would be wrecked pretty fast.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> "Jay’s pretax profits were $2.6 million for FY 2014, $3 million for fiscal year 2015, and through February 2016 appeared to be on track for $1.8 million for FY 2016, Goldberg said."





BenedictGomez said:


> Better than a loss, but still absolutely lousy numbers.


Considering the amount of $$$$ invested at Jay they're horrible.


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## mbedle (Jun 8, 2016)

Very interesting letter from the receiver to the investors up on the website. Couple of interesting things - they apparently determined that Jay Peak had paid an outside firm to build 24 of the cottages offsite for the Jay Peak Hotel Suites Stateside project. There appears to be a large amount of green card with their conditions removed. Possibility of selling of General Partner's share in the different projects. The letter to the USCIS explains some of the things they are asking them to do to persevere the statuses of the investors.


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## Not Sure (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> "Jay’s pretax profits were $2.6 million for FY 2014, $3 million for fiscal year 2015, and through February 2016 appeared to be on track for $1.8 million for FY 2016, Goldberg said."



Given the shenanigans with Eb-5 what are the chances they skimmed some off as well ? Who put the #'s together ?


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## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Given the shenanigans with Eb-5 what are the chances they skimmed some off as well ? Who put the #'s together ?



They did.   The receiver was confident profits would go up to 6 millions next year and 8 millions in two years.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *Considering the amount of $$$$ invested at Jay they're horrible.*



Beyond horrible, and very telling.



fbrissette said:


> T*he receiver was confident profits  would go up to 6 millions next year and 8 millions in two years*.



Still poor results, and telling.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Jun 8, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Is it possible that the Jackson tram capacity is dictated by size and not weight?



It's 19,709 lbs. or 100+1, whichever comes first (almost always the latter.)  That's why Jay is adding load sensors so operators aren't guessing.


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## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Beyond horrible, and very telling.
> 
> Still poor results, and telling.



You cannot evaluate the profitability of the investments made at Jay peak in the same way you would for a typical investment.  It was obvious from the beginning that they could not build the infrastructures, operate them AND refund the investors with interest.  For Jay Peak, this fraud and receivership was the best possible outcome.

When they sell the resort two years from now (supposedly valued at anywhere between 40 and 90 millions), the buyer will get a profitable resort free from any creditors. 

What happens to Burke if,  even with the hotel, they cannot turn in a profit ?


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Still poor results, and telling.



Do tell.  What do you think the top line revenue and profits should be at a resort like Jay?


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Do tell.  What do you think the top line revenue and profits should be at a resort like Jay?


More than 3%-4% per annum which it will be even with $6m-$8m profit. They invested $200m in the place.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

Do you think Killington makes money every year?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you think Killington makes money every year?



They used to, but that was now decades ago under SKI


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you think Killington makes money every year?


What does that have to do with Jay? Question was do you think 3%-4% per anum is a good return on investment.

Lets not forget those are pre-tax dollars too.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

To that I'd answer, it depends on a number of factors. 3-4% could be a decent year for a ski area depending on the hand they're dealt with weather and the economy.  

I guess my point is that some years are better than others and to look at just one season is pretty foolish.  

Gunstock normally prints money for Belknap County, this year they needed to borrow money to fund summer operations.

The year I worked at Snowshoe, we did 500k skier visits and had an annual operating revenue of $35M and an EBITDA of $8M.  The year prior they lost money.  Even the mighty Vail has massive swings in revue to the tune of 30%. 

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/09/2...illion-2015-earnings-strong-despite-bad-snow/

I just find BGs comments rather flippant and unrealistic; like it's very easy to make money in the ski business. It's not.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

2015 had record skier visits in VT. Jay turned $3m in pre-tax profit even with the hotel & waterpark. That's a 1.5% return on investment.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

Did Jay have a record year as well? The southern part of the state did much better snow and weather wise, so it's certainly plausible that people didn't travel as far north into the state to ski. Do we know what kind of money the Qs might have been skimming?

You tell me. How much money should they have made?  Obviously you think more than they did. How much more?


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Did Jay have a record year as well? The southern part of the state did much better snow and weather wise, so it's certainly plausible that people didn't travel as far north into the state to ski. Do we know what kind of money the Qs might have been skimming?
> 
> You tell me. How much money should they have made?  Obviously you think more than they did. How much more?


Make all the excuses you want. It is, was & likely always will be a shitty investment.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Make all the excuses you want. It is, was & likely always will be a shitty investment.



Okay.


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## fbrissette (Jun 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Make all the excuses you want. It is, was & likely always will be a shitty investment.


That's the thing you and BG are not getting.  It was not a traditional investment.  They were selling 500k green cards with possibility of making money.  If you were guaranteed 10% ROI there would no need to go through EB5.


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## The Sneak (Jun 8, 2016)

Those really are crappy ROI #s in my worthless opinion.

More excited about Porsche Parade at Jay...it really is a big deal. Any of you going?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I guess my point is that some years are better than others and to look at just one season is pretty foolish.


We weren't looking at just one year.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 8, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That's the thing you and BG are not getting.  It was not a traditional investment.  They were selling 500k green cards with possibility of making money.  If you were guaranteed 10% ROI there would no need to go through EB5.


Never realized there were guaranteed 10% returns on traditional investments. Sign me up.


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## Jully (Jun 9, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> When they sell the resort two years from now (supposedly valued at anywhere between 40 and 90 millions), the buyer will get a profitable resort free from any creditors.



That's the key. Doesn't matter that $200 million was put into the place from the perspective of the buyer, all that matters is that the resort can make a profit. Any assessments of viability should be looked at through the lens of what Jay is worth today because EB5 / the ponzi threw everything else out the window.


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## mbedle (Jun 9, 2016)

Jully said:


> That's the key. Doesn't matter that $200 million was put into the place from the perspective of the buyer, all that matters is that the resort can make a profit. Any assessments of viability should be looked at through the lens of what Jay is worth today because EB5 / the ponzi threw everything else out the window.



What is interesting is they are thinking of either selling off the general partner's interest in the Jay Peak Hotel Suites project or obtaining a mortgage to finish the project. They are also looking to sell off the GP's interest in the Burke hotel to satisfy the liens on the property. Hopefully the same party that purchases the GP interest in the hotel, will also be purchasing the ski resort??? Just not sure why that wasn't made a little clearer in their letter to investors. See below:

_"Although the following is subject to change, we are currently considering a potential plan whereby we would seek to sell the General Partner's interest in this partnership to a third party who would be required to continue to operate the hotel in compliance with the federal EB-5 program to insure that all investors in this project are able to meet the necessary requirements of the EB-5 program. The purchase price of the General Partner's interest would be based upon the current market value of the property, as determined by a reputable appraiser and a competitive sales process designed to achieve true market value. The proceeds of the sale of the General Partner's interest in this partnership would be used to satisfy the claims of the contractors who built the hotel. This amount is currently estimated to be approximately $3.5 million. Moreover, the purchaser would also be granted the option to purchase each investors' limited partnership interest once all investors in the project have had their I-829 petitions approved. The purchase price of each limited partners' interest would also be based on the current market value of the property. Again, this plan is in the preliminary stages and is subject to change and will require discussion with the USCIS and the Court's approval prior to implementation."_


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 9, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Never realized there were guaranteed 10% returns on traditional investments. Sign me up.



Are you trolling or are you reading impaired ?


----------



## benski (Jun 9, 2016)

You guys put a lot of faith in cost put out by a guy who stole funds from projects. They claimed the investment was 200 million dollars but how much of that was just for Q and Stenger. Also it sounds like they were not good at running the mountain profits will likely increase now that it's under new management. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fbrissette (Jun 9, 2016)

mbedle said:


> What is interesting is they are thinking of either selling off the general partner's interest in the Jay Peak Hotel Suites project or obtaining a mortgage to finish the project. They are also looking to sell off the GP's interest in the Burke hotel to satisfy the liens on the property. Hopefully the same party that purchases the GP interest in the hotel, will also be purchasing the ski resort??? Just not sure why that wasn't made a little clearer in their letter to investors.



The receiver (at the homeowner meeting) stated very clearly that everything (hotel + resort) would be sold as a whole.  Money from the sale would be used to pay off creditors and investors.  They will be trying to make sure that investors get their green cards which is why they are looking at ways to finish the last State Side project  (condos + rec. center).


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 9, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You cannot evaluate the profitability of the investments made at Jay peak in the same way you would for a typical investment.*  It was obvious from the beginning that they could not build the infrastructures, operate them AND refund the investors with interest.*



Ummm..... no, actually it was not "obvious" - at least not to many people on this board.  Most people here thought this was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, that money would be teaming from the rafters.  That was by far the majority opinion here in 2012, 2013, 20XX, etc....., and those few that thought otherwise were a (very) small minority.



fbrissette said:


> *What happens to Burke if,  even with the hotel, they cannot turn in a profit ?*



It will go NELSAP.  I've stated my belief here many times that Burke will go NELSAP without either:

A) State of Vermont directly intervening and essentially making it a taxpayer funded charity
B) RPT



deadheadskier said:


> Do tell.  *What do you think the top line revenue and profits should be at a resort like Jay?*



We don't have enough public data of their finances and spending to give an accurate (or even ballpark really) answer.   What I can say, however, is that from the results we do know - it's horrendous.  There's not even an avenue to allow for turd-polishing or spin here.



steamboat1 said:


> *2015 had record skier visits in VT. Jay turned $3m in pre-tax profit even with the hotel & waterpark. That's a 1.5% return on investment.*



Not to be pedantic, but it's actually even worse than that.   I don't know what sort of deductions are "games" are allowed for with the tax code regarding ski resorts, but Vermont has one of the highest corporate tax rates in all of America, so I imagine Jay's effective tax rate is worse than your average bear's.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm not sure what you're even trying to prove BG?  Yes, profitability at ski areas can be bad. In the example cited it was particularly bad, but probably not all that shocking given the shenanigans going on.

Poor profitability isn't a just a Jay issue, it's a ski industry issue. Look at all the massive ski area companies and family run resorts that have imploded. Look at what banks are willing to finance today compared to the 80s and 90s.  You're arguing water is wet essentially.

 The areas and companies that weather the storm best tend to be the ones that diversify both in season and four season products.  So, I don't think it should be a surprise that Jay is doing just that. It will likely never be a major profit company, but the hotel and water park likely give them a better shot. Why do you think Killington is spending all their money lately on their summer product?  Why have they been trying to find the money to build their own village for decades? Why did Stowe put together the massive Spruce Peak development?  Stowe was losing money annually and it was either go all in or scale back their operations.

 Smuggs actually set the model for all this. They were the only major ski resort in Vermont that made money every single year during the 90s.  Everyone else had one or several money losing years.  So, it's not at all surprising other areas are trying to follow that four season formula.  Some are better at it than others and there's numerous factors involved.

So, what exactly are you trying to tell everyone you are right about again?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> So, what exactly are you trying to tell everyone you are right about again?



Maybe we should just close Burke and Jay and let it all rot? Since they are too far to drive to from Jersey, they can't be viable, so that is the only answer!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Maybe we should just close Burke and Jay and let it all rot? Since they are too far to drive to from Jersey, they can't be viable, so that is the only answer!



Sugarloaf even further away from Jersey. Better shut them down too.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure what you're even trying to prove BG?



I'm not trying to "prove" anything, I made a very simple (or so I thought), declarative statement of fact regarding Jay's numbers.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 9, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Maybe we should just close Burke and Jay and let it all rot? Since they are too far to drive to from Jersey, they can't be viable, so that is the only answer!



This post makes no sense, but that happens when people become emotional, rather than logical.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Why do you think Killington is spending all their money lately on their summer product? * Why have they been trying to find the money to build their own village for decades?*


Powdr does not own Killington, SP Land owns Killington. Powdr operates the ski area & keeps 80% of the revenue from ski area operations (including summer attractions), SP Land gets 20%. It's Powdr that has been investing in summer attractions to boost their revenue. Conversely SP Land owns the real estate (condo's/hotel) & keeps 80% of the revenue generated from those with Powdr getting 20%. If Killington were to build a village it would be SP Land that would see the bulk of revenue from those operations, not Powdr. It's SP Land that seems to not have the money to build a village, not Powdr.


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## fbrissette (Jun 9, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ummm..... no, actually it was not "obvious" - at least not to many people on this board.  Most people here thought this was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, that money would be teaming from the rafters.  That was by far the majority opinion here in 2012, 2013, 20XX, etc....., and those few that thought otherwise were a (very) small minority.



You're putting two different things into one.  Yes, the vast majority (including me) thought that this EB5 was a great thing.   I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that Jay could make enough money to actually give it all back to the investors somewhere down the line with interests on top.   I've stated very early that this would be impossible.  This was always money for a green card.   

Ultimately, this EB5 thing will actually turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for Jay Peak.  Not so much for the investors.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 9, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You're putting two different things into one.  Yes, the vast majority (including me) thought that this EB5 was a great thing. *  I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that Jay could make enough money to actually give it all back to the investors somewhere down the line *with interests on top.   I've stated very early that this would be impossible.  *This was always money for a green card.*



Perhaps you didn't, but there were certainly plenty who believed the entire thing would be a 100% success story. 

 As for the "money for a green card" thing, while yes that is true for many, we know enough to know that it's clearly not true for everyone.  These are mostly well-off people, yes, but there are shades of grey to "well-off", and we know that there are plenty of people sweating right now for whom this "investment" represents a decent chunk of their net worth.  Caveat emptor at the end of the day is my motto, but I do feel at least _some_ sympathy for them.  And that's probably one of the biggest aspects of the story not really talked about when people defend Stenger & Co.   This charade was evil in ways that go beyond mere theft.  Some of these investors might be ruined, a la Madoff.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 9, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> The receiver (at the homeowner meeting) stated very clearly that everything (hotel + resort) would be sold as a whole.  Money from the sale would be used to pay off creditors and investors.  They will be trying to make sure that investors get their green cards which is why they are looking at ways to finish the last State Side project  (condos + rec. center).



I am not doubting what he said, but the letters I read say something completely different. It clearly said that for Q Burke, they are potentially only looking to sell the GPs interests in the hotel, not the limited partners interests. For Jay Peak Hotel Suites, it is a little different, and this is what he told the investors in his letter:

"We are currently exploring the possibility of completing this project. To raise the necessary funds to complete the project, we will consider selling the General Partner's interest in the project to a new owner who will agree to construct and operate the project in accordance with the federal EB-5 program requirements so that the investors in this project may obtain their unconditional green card. Alternatively, if a suitable buyer cannot be located, we will consider obtaining a mortgage on the property to obtain the necessary funds, to the extent possible. Finally, we are hopeful that we will recover funds wrongfully diverted from this partnership and/or recover damages from third parties who may have acted wrongfully in connection with their dealings with the partnership in order to utilize such funds to complete the project as intended."


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## Bcbobcat22 (Jun 10, 2016)

Tram was running today, saw it from a distance. Maybe doing load testing


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> This post makes no sense, but that happens when people become emotional, rather than logical.


Whatever, keep beating your drum.


----------



## abc (Jun 12, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> You're putting two different things into one.  Yes, the vast majority (including me) thought that this EB5 was a great thing.   I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that Jay could make enough money to actually give it all back to the investors somewhere down the line with interests on top.   I've stated very early that this would be impossible.  This was always money for a green card.
> 
> Ultimately, this EB5 thing will actually turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for Jay Peak.  Not so much for the investors.


So the state of Vermont allowed, or even help facilitate, a fraud to go on from the beginning! 

When no one (on this board or in Vermont) EVER thought the investors will be paid back, never mind any chance of making any money (aka, as an "investment"), they nonetheless market it as such (allowed into the EB-5 pool). 

Madoff's only fault was he ripped off Americans rather than foreigners.


----------



## JimG. (Jun 12, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Whatever, keep beating your drum.



POTD.

Thanks.


----------



## Not Sure (Jun 12, 2016)

JimG. said:


> POTD.
> 
> Thanks.



Uh, He's dead Jim.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 12, 2016)

abc said:


> *the state of Vermont allowed, or even help facilitate, a fraud to go on from the beginning!*



It's unclear to me why a massive lawsuit hasn't been filed against State of Vermont, but my best guess is that there's so much "there, there", that it's taking the plaintiff group's attorneys forever-and-a-day to gather their evidence and prepare.  

 State of Vermont lied so much that's it difficult to remember all of their lies. I'm not even sure what their possible defense could be.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jun 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's unclear to me why a massive lawsuit hasn't been filed against State of Vermont, but my best guess is that there's so much "there, there", that it's taking the plaintiff group's attorneys forever-and-a-day to gather their evidence and prepare.
> 
> State of Vermont lied so much that's it difficult to remember all of their lies. I'm not even sure what their possible defense could be.



because the state isn't responsible for a private actors malfeasance.  Just like the sec isnt responsible for madoff, Enron, worldcom etc. etc. etc.


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## Domeskier (Jun 13, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> because the state isn't responsible for a private actors malfeasance.  Just like the sec isnt responsible for madoff, Enron, worldcom etc. etc. etc.



Sovereign immunity might create some obstacles as well...


----------



## abc (Jun 13, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> because the state isn't responsible for a private actors malfeasance.  Just like the sec isnt responsible for madoff, Enron, worldcom etc. etc. etc.


So what's the point of having the state be in the EB-5 program?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 13, 2016)

Completely unrelated but the Star Trek reference made me think of this. The Captains name of the brand new Navy Zumwalt destroyer is James Kirk.


----------



## JimG. (Jun 13, 2016)

Always wanted to somehow master that neck pinch thing.


----------



## JimG. (Jun 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Completely unrelated but the Star Trek reference made me think of this. The Captains name of the brand new Navy Zumwalt destroyer is James Kirk.



Yes, James A. Kirk.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2016)

abc said:


> So what's the point of having the state be in the EB-5 program?



Exactly.  They are in hot water because they repeatedly advertised, promised, and told investors that they were the ONLY state-run EB-5 program that was overseeing and "auditing" the projects when they were in fact not doing so.  Exhibit A:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2016)

Another interesting video:


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 13, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> because *the state isn't responsible for a private actors malfeasance. * Just like the sec isnt responsible for madoff, Enron, worldcom etc. etc. etc.



I see this as being enormously different than the other examples you posted because.....



thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.*  They are in hot water because they repeatedly advertised, promised, and told investors that they were the ONLY state-run EB-5 program that was overseeing and "auditing" the projects when they were in fact not doing so.  *Exhibit A:



And it's even worse than mere boastful claims, Vermont literally was not doing the financial analysis that they literally publicly claimed they were doing, so State of Vermont's actions aided the fraud.  I have no idea how this works in a court of law, but that's the logical way to explain what occurred.


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## Smellytele (Jun 13, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Yes, James A. Kirk.


not James _Tiberius_ Kirk?


----------



## HowieT2 (Jun 13, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see this as being enormously different than the other examples you posted because.....
> 
> 
> 
> And it's even worse than mere boastful claims, Vermont literally was not doing the financial analysis that they literally publicly claimed they were doing, so State of Vermont's actions aided the fraud.  I have no idea how this works in a court of law, but that's the logical way to explain what occurred.



correct, you have no idea how the law works, despite the fact that you've been spouting off incessantly about a whole manner of topics.  The govt. does not guaranty private investments whether in an eb5 program, or in the stock market, or a local restaurant.  if you want an investment insured, try an FDIC bank account.  the only thing the govt. promised here, were the visas if the terms of the program were met.

and its not any different then what the SEC was doing with respect to those other frauds.  The SEC investigated madoff, years before the fraud came to light, and those other companies were public entities subject to filings and audits as such.  people relied on the govt. oversight, but that doesnt mean the govt. insures their investments or is in any way responsible for the fraud.


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## JimG. (Jun 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> not James _Tiberius_ Kirk?



No; then they would have had to name the ship the Enterprise and that name is taken.


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## abc (Jun 13, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> The SEC investigated madoff, years before the fraud came to light


No, it did NOT. 

Madoff came to implosion when the economy went south and his investors wanted their money back!

SEC did NOTHING!!!

However, that's besides the point. SEC never goes out "promoting" any business. 

VT government didn't have to promote their business in the EB-5 program. No other state did, except VT? And this looks to be the only one that went up in flame the highest. One wonders whether it's just a mere coincidence?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2016)

abc said:


> No, it did NOT.
> 
> Madoff came to implosion when the economy went south and his investors wanted their money back!
> 
> SEC did NOTHING!!!



He's right.  They did sniff around Madoff a few years before.....and missed it.


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## abc (Jun 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> He's right.  They did sniff around Madoff a few years before.....and missed it.


Don't believe so. They got a tip from Madoff competitor but they didn't investigate at all. (they should, but no one lose their job as a result nevertheless)

But like I said, it's besides the point. 

VT government didn't have to promote their business in the EB-5 program. No other state did, except VT? And this looks to be the only one that went up in flame the highest. One wonders whether it's just a mere coincidence?


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## freeski (Jun 13, 2016)

The governor traveled to Asia and helped sell the EB-5 program. If he told investors the state would audit and be a watchdog for the program then the state could be held responsible.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2016)

freeski said:


> The governor traveled to Asia and helped sell the EB-5 program. If he told investors the state would audit and be a watchdog for the program then the state could be held responsible.



Watch said promo video I posted 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2016)

abc said:


> Don't believe so. They got a tip from Madoff competitor but they didn't investigate at all. (they should, but no one lose their job as a result nevertheless)
> 
> But like I said, it's besides the point.
> 
> VT government didn't have to promote their business in the EB-5 program. No other state did, except VT? And this looks to be the only one that went up in flame the highest. One wonders whether it's just a mere coincidence?



Re: Maddoff. Check out the PBS "Frontline" episode on him. That's where I saw that the SEC was tipped off, sniffed around, and did nothing. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## freeski (Jun 13, 2016)

Yes, video on page 112 Gov. Shumlin: "Vermont is the only EB-5 program that covers the entire State of Vermont and is audited by the State of Vermont. We make sure that the EB-5 program offerings are good investments for the investor and good economic development job creators for the State of Vermont." This isn't a pitchman claiming Vermont is overseeing the finances. It's the governor of the State. Stenger also says the 4 programs are put together with the cooperation of the State. Vermont open your wallet.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 13, 2016)

HowieT2 said:


> *you have no idea how the law works, despite the fact that you've been spouting off incessantly about a whole manner of topics.  The govt. does not guaranty private investments whether in an eb5 program, or in the stock market, or a local restaurant.  if you want an investment insured, try an FDIC bank account.  the only thing the govt. promised here, were the visas if the terms of the program were met. *


So you're on record stating that there will NOT be a lawsuite against State of Vermont in this, right? 

 Because if not, there's no coherent point to the above rambling paragraph.*


*


HowieT2 said:


> *  its not any different then what the SEC was doing with respect to those other frauds. * The SEC investigated madoff, years before the fraud came to light, and those other companies were public entities subject to filings and audits as such.  people relied on the govt. oversight, but that doesnt mean the govt. insures their investments or is in any way responsible for the fraud.



Actually, it's a helluva lot different.  

The SEC wasn't actively promoting Madoff.  
The SEC wasn't telling people publicly that they were examining all of Madoff's records on a regular basis, when they in fact were not.
The SEC wasn't (bizarrely) defending Madoff after the first chinks in the armor appeared.

So while the SEC dropped the ball in relation to Madoff in a major way, the two cases aren't similar at all other than the fact they both involved Ponzi schemes, and stereotypical government incompetence.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 13, 2016)

abc said:


> *
> 
> SEC never goes out "promoting" any business. *



Exactly.   This is a rather major point.   

The SEC also doesn't lie about conducting financial analysis and investigations that they're not actually conducting, as was the case with State of Vermont.

So yeah, I dont know much about the law, but I do believe there will eventually be a lawsuit against State of Vermont.    They have two things going for them that tend to act as Miracle Grow for lawsuits:

1) Obvious negligence that caused real harm
2) Lots and lots of money


----------



## Domeskier (Jun 13, 2016)

There will be no lawsuit against the State of Vermont unless Congress expressly limited state sovereign immunity in the legislation enacting the EB5 program.


----------



## abc (Jun 13, 2016)

I too, have no idea if there will be lawsuit against the state. But Vermont may join Mr Ponzi in creating a new term for government promoting a private business engaging in outright fraud, by committing outright fraud of its own (claiming audit that never conducted).

What's more likely? Will there be a new law forbidding state government from promoting individual business outside the state?


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## mbedle (Jun 14, 2016)

freeski said:


> Yes, video on page 112 Gov. Shumlin: "Vermont is the only EB-5 program that covers the entire State of Vermont and is audited by the State of Vermont. We make sure that the EB-5 program offerings are good investments for the investor and good economic development job creators for the State of Vermont." This isn't a pitchman claiming Vermont is overseeing the finances. It's the governor of the State. Stenger also says the 4 programs are put together with the cooperation of the State. Vermont open your wallet.



I am a little confused, if I read the above quote, it states that Vermont completed audits on the EB-5 offerings. That was done, so how is the state at fault for this mess? I haven't read anywhere where the state was committed to auditing the projects during construction, though completion. Am I missing something?


----------



## drjeff (Jun 14, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I am a little confused, if I read the above quote, it states that Vermont completed audits on the EB-5 offerings. That was done, so how is the state at fault for this mess? I haven't read anywhere where the state was committed to auditing the projects during construction, though completion. Am I missing something?



I'm guessing it's a case of a simple audit (I.E. There was X millions in Jay's EB-5 account that the state was holding, Jay submitted the required paperwork for release of those funds, VT saw that the paperwork looked in order, and released the funds to Jay) vs. what was the likely the forensic accounting that the SEC did as they compiled the info that lead to that "spaghetti plot" map that they (The SEC) produced when they made their announcement about the fraud.

If it was VT's "job" to just make sure that the $$ was in escrow with the state until Jay provided some documentation of the work, and wasn't supposed to look into it in fine detail, then as absurd as it may seem, the State very well may have done absolutely nothing wrong in this case


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 14, 2016)

The problem is that the process where the money went into an escrow account controlled by the state didn't start happening until the last year or two of this debacle. Before that Q had complete control of the money. VT wasn't really doing any auditing of accounts or expenses other than a very broad overview. It was ridiculously easy for Q to hide the shell game he was playing with money.
Once the SEC started sniffing around, VT decided they better put a state financial regulatory agency in charge of controlling the money rather than just the State EB-5 office which was really just a bunch of cheerleaders.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The problem is that the process where the money went into an escrow account controlled by the state didn't start happening until the last year or two of this debacle. Before that Q had complete control of the money. VT wasn't really doing any auditing of accounts or expenses other than a very broad overview. It was ridiculously easy for Q to hide the shell game he was playing with money.
> Once the SEC started sniffing around, VT decided they better put a state financial regulatory agency in charge of controlling the money rather than just the State EB-5 office which was really just a bunch of cheerleaders.



I guess that is why I am confused that people feel that Vermont somehow has some liability in this mess. They never stated to investors that they were going to audit these projects. They simple stated that they audited the EB-5 offering documents and that was the extent of their involvement. On the last two projects, they partially audited the Bio project midway when they took control of the escrow account. An the Burke hotel has been under their control since the beginning. The state can not be held responsible for the miss management of monies spent prior to their involvement. The one thing that they might have a case on is the business plans that were included in the offering documents. If someone can determine that they were not factual or riddled with errors, that might fall back on the state.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 14, 2016)

abc said:


> So the state of Vermont allowed, or even help facilitate, a fraud to go on from the beginning!
> 
> When no one (on this board or in Vermont) EVER thought the investors will be paid back, never mind any chance of making any money (aka, as an "investment"), they nonetheless market it as such (allowed into the EB-5 pool).
> 
> Madoff's only fault was he ripped off Americans rather than foreigners.



First of all, if you have 500k to invest (plus 50k for management), I don't care if it is your lifesaving or if it is only a drop in the bucket, you should do your due diligence.

200M with a 4% interest rate as promised, implies an increased profitability of 14.54 M$ per year (not taking taxes into account !) to refund capital with interest over a 20 year period.   I'm sorry but it does not take a deep knowledge of the ski industry to figure that these numbers make absolutely no sense for a ski resort in the middle of nowhere, and where the largest city center is in another country.  

I don't care how good the sales pitch was, you don't invest that much money without due diligence.  I assume many investors thought that in the worse case scenario they would be left with an equity, but it does not matter if the equity was acquired with 200M, utlimately, profits will tel how much this equity is worth (much, much less than 200M).

This program was fantastic for Jay Peak, allowing world class infrastructures to be be built, boosting resort profitability.   If the investors thought they could get a 4% return, there would not be a need for EB5 to begin with.  I feel bad for them if they don't get their visas, and I feel bad for the money that was stolen.   I don't feel sorry one bit for the bad investment.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> First of all, if you have 500k to invest (plus 50k for management), I don't care if it is your lifesaving or if it is only a drop in the bucket, you should do your due diligence.



But if the state that is overseeing and supposedly regulating the projects, and is going out of its way to say that it is, when it really is not, then such due diligence will fail.

Someone will try to sue Vermont.  And regardless, Vermont's credibility with investors of any stripe is now in the toilet.  That's the real damage.  It sickens me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2016)

drjeff said:


> *I'm guessing it's a case of a simple audit *(I.E. There was X millions in Jay's EB-5 account that the state was holding, Jay submitted the required paperwork for release of those funds, VT saw that the paperwork looked in order, and released the funds to Jay) vs. what was the likely the forensic accounting that the SEC did as they compiled the info that lead to that "spaghetti plot" map that they (The SEC) produced when they made their announcement about the fraud.



There never was an "audit" of any kind.   Yes, the governor did say that, but we later learned it wasn't true.

They weren't even collecting and maintaining the quarterly reviews that they literally said that they were doing.   This all came out long ago.  True, Stenger kept stalling and delaying access, but that's no excuse, in fact it adds to their culpability.

And I'll mention this name for the 1,100th time ---> Brent Raymond.  The guy with VT political connections and no resume commensurate for the lofty job/title he held, who was oddly covering for Stenger the _"great man"_ who he vehemently claimed _"did nothing illegal"_, a rather remarkable claim given he wasn't analyzing the books.  I'd still love to know if the SEC ever investigated Raymond.   He's either incompetent or perhaps somehow complicit, I have no idea which, but there isn't a third option.





mbedle said:


> *I guess that is why I am confused that people feel that Vermont somehow has some liability in this mess. They never stated to investors that they were going to audit these projects.* They simple stated that they audited the EB-5 offering documents and that was the extent of their involvement.




Seriously?   

State of Vermont's entire EB-5 raison d'etre and repeated marketing and sales pitch revolved around your "investment" being "safer in Vermont" than anywhere else in America because it was the only government monitored and run EB-5 program replete with quarterly financial monitoring.  All false.

  And the state WAS forced to REMOVE oversight claims from promotional materials and marketing video because they were deemed to be false, where they DID say that they audited the books.   This became public after a State of Vermont lawyer (forget his/her name) told them they needed to "ixnay on the claimay of any auditsay".


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Vermont's credibility with investors of any stripe is now in the toilet.  That's the real damage.  It sickens me.



Agreed.  EB5 is now dead in Vermont.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed.  EB5 is now dead in Vermont.



Well, any effort to get investment in Vermont is now in trouble.  Sure, the current "administration" is leaving this year because the Gov is not seeking re-election, but they have done a lot of damage that will span beyond their years.  Why would anyone want to invest in Vermont when the State had either (a) no idea what they were doing, or (b) were complacent?  The average person in Vermont and the average business in Vermont now is hurt.  EB-5 was really meant for a lot of businesses in Vermont and Appalachia but now that route is now gone.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 14, 2016)

Harrison Ford is moving to the Burlington area. Maybe he can get the next Star Wars to film up there. 

http://www.kupr7.com/burlington-vermont/harrison-ford-explains-why-hes-moving-to-burlington-vermont/


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 14, 2016)

Hmmm, I heard he was moving to New Jersey.

http://www.knp7.com/trenton/harrison-ford-explains-why-hes-moving-to-trenton-new-jersey/


----------



## abc (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> This program was fantastic for Jay Peak, allowing world class infrastructures to be be built, *boosting resort profitability*.


What "world class infrastructure"? The yet to be serviced tram??? Or you think the hotel is such world class hotel it alone will "boost" Jay's profitability?

For the next few years, Jay Peak will have NEGATIVE profit. And even in the long term, it may still have poorer profitability due to the cost of keeping those empty hotel rooms heated.  

That's not to count the fact the only "investor" who are likely to touch Jay Peak from here on out will be investment vultures. 

In what way is that "fantastic for Jay Peak"?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 14, 2016)

Do you have direct access to Jay's balance sheets to make the claim that they are and will be less profitable than they were prior to the development of the hotels and water park?  How can you be so sure?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Harrison Ford is moving to the Burlington area. Maybe he can get the next Star Wars to film up there.
> 
> http://www.kupr7.com/burlington-vermont/harrison-ford-explains-why-hes-moving-to-burlington-vermont/





from_the_NEK said:


> Hmmm, I heard he was moving to New Jersey.
> 
> http://www.knp7.com/trenton/harrison-ford-explains-why-hes-moving-to-trenton-new-jersey/



It's dupes of the same fake article.  He is not moving anywhere.  Perhaps you all knew that and were being tongue in cheek.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 14, 2016)

Bonus .gif has Leahy in it


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 14, 2016)

abc said:


> What "world class infrastructure"? The yet to be serviced tram??? Or you think the hotel is such world class hotel it alone will "boost" Jay's profitability?



Let me see - a great ski mountain (by eastern standards),  a skating rink, an aquaparc, a great golf course, and modern accommodations to go with it.  If you can't at least recognize that Jay Peak is in much better position than it ever was, there is little point in having a discussion.   You must have missed the part about the receiver expecting annual profits in the 6 to 8M$ per year.

You can choose to believe whatever you want, the real test will be a couple of year from now when the sell the place.   Buyers will show up.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Let me see - a great ski mountain (by eastern standards),  a skating rink, an aquaparc, a great golf course, and modern accommodations to go with it.  If you can't at least recognize that Jay Peak is in much better position than it ever was, there is little point in having a discussion.   You must have missed the part about the receiver expecting annual profits in the 6 to 8M$ per year.
> 
> You can choose to believe whatever you want, the real test will be a couple of year from now when the sell the place.   Buyers will show up.


How much EB-5 money did Quiros & Stenger raise? I've heard somewhere in the range of $500m. With the exception of the Burke Hotel the majority of that money went into Jay since there's no money left & very little work done on the other projects. Yes some of it went into the pockets of Quiros & Stenger. Lets just say $300m went into Jay. $6m-$8m profit per year would still be a very poor ROI on that investment & who's to say it will be even that much. Yes a buyer will come along but they won't pay nearly as much for Jay as the amount of money invested. Why would anyone with only $6m-$8m in projected annual profits.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 14, 2016)

Didn't a large chunk of that $300M go towards private real estate that's been sold off?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *You can choose to believe whatever you want, the real test will be a couple of year from now when the sell the place.   Buyers will show up.*



_"A few more such victories will shortly put an end to British dominion in America"_ - General Henry Clinton, 1775


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 14, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Didn't a large chunk of that $300M go towards private real estate that's been sold off?


I have no idea. I've heard the going rate for ski resorts is approximately 6 X's annual earnings. That puts the value of Jay at $36m-$48m. I hope they sold a lot of private real estate.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 14, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Lets just say $300m went into Jay. $6m-$8m profit per year would still be a very poor ROI on that investment & who's to say it will be even that much. Yes a buyer will come along but they won't pay nearly as much for Jay as the amount of money invested. Why would anyone with only $6m-$8m in projected annual profits.



Just like I was saying earlier, potential buyers will not pay the construction value of the assets.  They will pay market value based on the resort profitability as a whole.  The resort is supposedly valued in the 50-80 million range, which tells a lot especially considering 
Quiros bought the resort on 2008 for 25 millions (per the receiver's lawsuit against Raymond James).  So we're pretty far from 1$ construction being equal to 1$ in increased value (notwithstanding fraud, construction management fee...).

The future buyer will get all the assets (which undoubtebly increased profitability - unless you live in NJ in which case these assets are an endless pit) at a fraction of the construction cost, free from creditors.


----------



## fcksummer (Jun 14, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> You must be a young un.  The little Pico triple used to be a t-bar.  When you look at that you can run a t-bar anywhere.  *cuts down on snowboards and people who shouldn't be there*.



Now only if there was a lift to cut down on skiers.


----------



## abc (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> The future buyer will get all the assets (which undoubtebly increased profitability - unless you live in NJ in which case these assets are an endless pit) at a fraction of the construction cost, free from creditors.


Well, if you force the creditor's to accept a haircut, return only a fraction of the investor's money, you CAN indeed make even a toilet bowl "profitable". 

Yes, if that's what you mean by profitability of Jay, you'd be right. 

Fraud pays, in that context. 

(In reality, you may even do the same with your own house. Sell your house to your kid for 10% over market value. Let him declare bankruptcy and go to jail for lying in the mortgage application. Now, the house is on the market for 60% of its value on a bank repo sale. Buy it back yourself. You've just made a handsome profit of ~50%)


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 14, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Let me see - a great ski mountain (by eastern standards),  a skating rink, an aquaparc, a great golf course, and modern accommodations to go with it.  If you can't at least recognize that Jay Peak is in much better position than it ever was, there is little point in having a discussion.   You must have missed the part about the receiver expecting annual profits in the 6 to 8M$ per year.
> 
> You can choose to believe whatever you want, the real test will be a couple of year from now when the sell the place.   Buyers will show up.



You forgot to mention the thigh deep powder we will be slaying in the West Bowl after a short skin when everyone else is standing in lift lines


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 14, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> Now only if there was a lift to cut down on skiers.



Pretty sure it's called a skin track. :wink:


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 14, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> You forgot to mention the thigh deep powder we will be slaying in the West Bowl after a short skin when everyone else is standing in lift lines



Now you're taking !  Will definitely do this next winter to forget how crappy the last one was.


----------



## Harvey (Jun 14, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hmmm, I heard he was moving to New Jersey.
> 
> http://www.knp7.com/trenton/harrison-ford-explains-why-hes-moving-to-trenton-new-jersey/



This is kind of funny. WTF is the point?

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:kupr7.com+harrison+ford


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2016)

abc said:


> In reality, you may even do the same with your own house. *Sell your house to your kid for 10% over market value. Let him declare bankruptcy* and go to jail for lying in the mortgage application. *Now, the house is on the market for 60% of its value on a bank repo sale. Buy it back yourself. You've just made a handsome profit of ~50%*



What a fantastic success story!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2016)

Interesting.  Had no idea about this fiasco.  

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 15, 2016)

The Porsches are coming...
Should be an interesting weekend here in the NEK with Nembafest in Burke and the Porsche Parade at Jay Peak.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Porsches are coming...
> Should be an interesting weekend here in the NEK with Nembafest in Burke and the Porsche Parade at Jay Peak.



Will Daddy Q show up with his EB-5 financed Porsche?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> "While they waited for the promised septic, water and Act 250 permits, Meese and his partner outfitted the former airport café. They invested in equipment for a 50-seat eatery, installing a large oven, walk-in cooler and freezer."
> 
> Meese and his partner weren't very smart - if they were they would have waited until all the requirements were met before building out the 50-seat eatery.  Don't blame the state for your lousy business plan.



It did seem presumptuous to sink that much money into a building that is not capable of holding their business.


----------



## Domeskier (Jun 15, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Porsches are coming...
> Should be an interesting weekend here in the NEK with Nembafest in Burke and the Porsche Parade at Jay Peak.



I'm sure some local towns are gearing up to collect half a year's budget from the drivers.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 15, 2016)

Domeskier said:


> I'm sure some local towns are gearing up to collect half a year's budget from the drivers.


Troopers will be ready to give them a warm VT. welcome too.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2016)

> Developers Ariel Quiros and Bill Stenger, both of whom have been charged  with fraud, had *plans to bring commercial flights to the little  airstrip and build a passenger terminal there.*



I still cant get over this. LOL.  Twenty years from now, if I hear this again, it will still make me chuckle that people believe this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> It did seem presumptuous to sink that much money into a building that is not capable of holding their business.



He seems a wee-bit naive.



> "The only reason I believed that was because it came from a state agency"


----------



## abc (Jun 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I still cant get over this. LOL.  Twenty years from now, if I hear this again, it will still make me chuckle that people believe this.


Field of Dreams, build it and they will come!

Americans are by nature optimistic. We're a self-selected group of optimists. Our ancestors came here risking life and limb, with only a very vague outlook. But they believed it and here we are today, the greatest country in the world. It's in our genes. 

It makes us gullible. But it also makes Bill Gate and Mark Zukerburg out of us too.


----------



## 180 (Jun 16, 2016)

abc said:


> Field of Dreams, build it and they will come!
> 
> Americans are by nature optimistic. We're a self-selected group of optimists. Our ancestors came here risking life and limb, with only a very vague outlook. But they believed it and here we are today, the greatest country in the world. It's in our genes.
> 
> It makes us gullible. But it also makes Bill Gate and Mark Zukerburg out of us too.



I like that attitude


----------



## dlague (Jun 16, 2016)

Jay Peak posted a link on FB to this news

June 16, 2016 (Jay, VT)- Jay Peak Resort recently completed a three-day inspection of its aerial tram. The resort, in cooperation with the state, flew in an aerial tramway specialist and worked with state inspectors to examine the tram and its operating systems. Inspectors conducted a successful load test designed to ensure that all of the conveyance’s electrical, hauling and braking systems can function normally under strenuous conditions. After passing the load test, resort personnel successfully completed and passed an evacuation drill. The team also inspected the tram’s towers and its bolting structures. All were found to be operating normally.
Engineers did find on the last day of the inspection a hairline crack to one of the components of one of the tram carriages. That part will be removed and replaced next week. After that work is complete, state officials will return for a final review.
“We’re happy the inspection process has gone so smoothly,” remarked Steve Wright, Jay Peak’s General Manager. “The resort has a long history of cooperation with the state’s lift inspectors and it’s their rigor and responsiveness that has allowed this process to move so efficiently."
The resort recently signed a $5 million contract with the Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group to conduct custom upgrades to the tram, but that work isn’t scheduled to begin until the spring of 2017 and is not required for operations this summer or for the coming winter.
Wright said Doppelmayr/Garaventa will begin work on the enhancements shortly as the improvements are all customized and will take approximately 12 months to complete. Installation of the upgrades will begin in the spring of 2017.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 16, 2016)

dlague said:


> *aerial tramway specialist*



That's a thing?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm pretty sure it is just the same as "Serial Nitpicker from New Jersey" is a thing ;-)


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 17, 2016)

http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain


----------



## slatham (Jun 17, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's a thing?



Yes, just like baseball has relievers that will come in to only face left handers - usually one and done. In this case a lift mechanic who works primarily if not exclusively on Trams. Rather different mechanics and engineering at the micro level than a chairlift.....


----------



## dlague (Jun 20, 2016)

I think this is funny co sideline options discussed here.

http://www.skiessentials.com/Chairlift-Chat/The-Future-of-Jay-Peak-and-Burke-Mountain


----------



## bluebird (Jun 24, 2016)

dlague said:


> Jay Peak posted a link on FB to this news
> 
> June 16, 2016 (Jay, VT)- Jay Peak Resort recently completed a three-day inspection of its aerial tram. The resort, in cooperation with the state, flew in an aerial tramway specialist and worked with state inspectors to examine the tram and its operating systems. Inspectors conducted a successful load test designed to ensure that all of the conveyance’s electrical, hauling and braking systems can function normally under strenuous conditions. After passing the load test, resort personnel successfully completed and passed an evacuation drill. The team also inspected the tram’s towers and its bolting structures. All were found to be operating normally.
> Engineers did find on the last day of the inspection a hairline crack to one of the components of one of the tram carriages. That part will be removed and replaced next week. After that work is complete, state officials will return for a final review.
> ...



Jay announced that the Tram will open tomorrow.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2016)

dlague said:


> Jay Peak posted a link on FB to this news
> 
> June 16, 2016 (Jay, VT)- The resort recently signed a $5 million contract with the Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group to conduct custom upgrades to the tram, but that work isn’t scheduled to begin until the spring of 2017 and is not required for operations this summer or for the coming winter.
> Wright said Doppelmayr/Garaventa will begin work on the enhancements shortly as the improvements are all customized and will take approximately 12 months to complete. Installation of the upgrades will begin in the spring of 2017.


So a tram that wasn't permitted to run can now run without upgrades until spring 2017?

OK.

I mean it's not like it needs $5m in repairs or anything.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 25, 2016)

I'd say there is a vast difference between needed repairs, and needed upgrades.


----------



## slatham (Jun 25, 2016)

And I bet the capacity is being limited until said upgrades are made.


----------



## machski (Jun 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> So a tram that wasn't permitted to run can now run without upgrades until spring 2017?
> 
> OK.
> 
> I mean it's not like it needs $5m in repairs or anything.



They needed 1 immediate repair, one of the Carriages was found defficient in the NDT.  That part was replaced.  The balance are all upgrades that the tramway board now requires on this type of lift.  SO yes, the safety standards have gone up and the Tram needs to be brought up to the new enhanced code.  But it is not unsafe or broken in its now current state.  Go buy a nice, older house.  I guarentee most will not be up to new codes for building.  Doesn't make the house as is unsafe.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 25, 2016)

Just saw the tram, it is running, good for resort, employees and locals

FWIW I feel safer riding the tram than traversing those ancient NYC bridges.

Escaped that rat race a looong time ago


----------



## machski (Jun 25, 2016)

Here we go, first increased scrutiny fall out on other EB-5 projects.  Okemo's Southface has been halted:
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=449


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 25, 2016)

machski said:


> Here we go, first increased scrutiny fall out on other EB-5 projects.  Okemo's Southface has been halted:
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=449


Part of your link & a little more detailed:
http://digital.vpr.net/post/state-r...oject-okemo-soliciting-new-investors#stream/0


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2016)

> According to VPR, the state is  questioning the separation of business entities, profitability,  repayment of investors, land value, escrow access, and Private Placement  Memorandum inconsistencies.




I mean, what else is there that they could question? lol     That's the kitchen sink.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2016)

slatham said:


> And I bet the capacity is being limited until said upgrades are made.



Has something changed, I thought the capacity is being limited in perpetuity?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 27, 2016)

From a VTDigger article about the tram:

“We have authorized operation provided specific conditions are met (reduced passenger capacity, *lower speed, *specific daily, weekly inspection and maintenance procedures),” Monahan wrote."


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'd say there is a vast difference between needed repairs, and needed upgrades.



Yeah, the order last month was not written too well.  It appears that the Tram needed upgrades and not repairs.  The media misinterpreted it, as VTK said.  Looks like it will run now on a reduced basis, but it will run.  Hope that the receiver can get things resolved for good and sell the place to a good owner.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> From a VTDigger article about the tram:
> 
> “We have authorized operation provided specific conditions are met (reduced passenger capacity, *lower speed, *specific daily, weekly inspection and maintenance procedures),” Monahan wrote."





Glad VT Digger found the time to update the tram status,  they appear very busy with its Minter for governor and destroy Vt farms campaigns


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> ... reduced passenger capacity,  lower speed ...



That's going to make BG happy.  The world's most inefficient lift will now beat its own record.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Glad VT Digger found the time to update the tram status,  they appear very busy with its Minter for governor and destroy Vt farms campaigns



Haven't looked at VTD in a while, but will have to check that out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That's going to make BG happy.  The world's most inefficient lift will now beat its own record.



I do understand his point in terms of things from a purely ROI perspective, but, as we said, the Tram serves its purpose and is part of the Jay brand.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I do understand his point in terms of things from a purely ROI perspective, but, as we said, the Tram serves its purpose and is part of the Jay brand.



I'm with you on this.


----------



## Edd (Jun 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That's going to make BG happy.  The world's most inefficient lift will now beat its own record.



LOL! A sadly accurate statement.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> I'm with you on this.



I've summarized ten pages of posts into one or two sentences.  :lol:

When I think Tram, I do think of Cannon and Jay in the east.  That sets them apart from the other many resorts.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 27, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> From a VTDigger article about the tram:
> 
> “We have authorized operation provided specific conditions are met (reduced passenger capacity, *lower speed, *specific daily, weekly inspection and maintenance procedures),” Monahan wrote."



Great, so not only will it be 25% LESS efficient than its' previous inefficient iteration, but it will be SLOWER to boot.  

FIVE MILLION dollars for this?   

 What next? Maybe the roof will start leaking so your slow, inefficient ride, that you wasted 30 minutes of your day on, can be as uncomfortable as possible too.



fbrissette said:


> *That's going to make BG happy.  The world's most inefficient lift will now beat its own record.*



I felt my bp rising reading VTKilarney's post.   I'd like VTDigger to quantify "slower" so we can calculate the new uphill metrics.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Great, so not only will it be 25% LESS efficient than its' previous inefficient iteration, but it will be SLOWER to boot.
> 
> FIVE MILLION dollars for this?
> 
> ...



I think that the upgrades will address the speed and other issues.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that the upgrades will address the speed and other issues.



Hopefully it will address the speed because that's just salt in the wound, but AFAIK from what's out there, I think the capacity is permanently impaired even with the repairs due to the original 1960s construction.  Anyone know for sure?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hopefully it will address the speed because that's just salt in the wound, but AFAIK from what's out there, I think the capacity is permanently impaired even with the repairs due to the original 1960s construction.  Anyone know for sure?



That's something I wondered as well.  

What do they do with that water?  Is it merely ballast to run the lift when it is empty?  Or do they regularly refill a tank at the summit with potable water transported using the Tram?  Snowbird's Tram (circa 1971) also has a tank on the bottom of one if not both of the tram cabs.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 27, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hopefully it will address the speed because that's just salt in the wound, but AFAIK from what's out there, I think the capacity is permanently impaired even with the repairs due to the original 1960s construction.  Anyone know for sure?


I kind of remember reading that the manual had miscalculated the trams designed capacity. I'm sure the post is in this thread somewhere but I'm to lazy to search for it. I'd agree with you that the capacity will be permanently reduced.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> That's something I wondered as well.
> 
> What do they do with that water?  Is it merely ballast to run the lift when it is empty?  Or do they regularly refill a tank at the summit with potable water transported using the Tram?  Snowbird's Tram (circa 1971) also has a tank on the bottom of one if not both of the tram cabs.



the water supplies the tram house, I do not believe they currently have a water source besides the tram tank.  I thought there was a line at one time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I kind of remember reading that the manual had miscalculated the trams designed capacity. I'm sure the post is in this thread somewhere but I'm to lazy to search for it. I'd agree with you that the capacity will be permanently reduced.



That's my recollection as well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> the water supplies the tram house, I do not believe they currently have a water source besides the tram tank.  I thought there was a line at one time.



Interesting.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> the water supplies the tram house, I do not believe they currently have a water source besides the tram tank.  I thought there was a line at one time.



They have wastewater pipes but no water line as far as I know.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> *I kind of remember reading that the manual had miscalculated the trams designed capacity. *I'm sure the post is in this thread somewhere but I'm to lazy to search for it. I'd agree with you that the capacity will be permanently reduced.



Correct.  That's why I'm thinking this (sadly) isnt fixable.


----------



## machski (Jun 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct.  That's why I'm thinking this (sadly) isnt fixable.



I should think if they had a team of engineers come in and reanalyze the current setup of the tram, they could determine if the capacity could be increased (IE the existing infrastructure could support a higher load).  Of course, this would cost some good amount of $$, which in the end will be why the receiver accepts reduced capacity as the cheaper alternative.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 28, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> That's going to make BG happy.  The world's most inefficient lift will now beat its own record.



Thanks for my morning laugh!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 28, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I kind of remember reading that the manual had miscalculated the trams designed capacity. I'm sure the post is in this thread somewhere but I'm to lazy to search for it. I'd agree with you that the capacity will be permanently reduced.



The thing is, no matter what the maual says, it's been run at higher capacity and speeds for how many decades? And has just undergone a major inspection showing no major defects at this time preventing operation? Isn't that at least partially "proof of concept" that maybe, just maybe, the manual may be slightly off?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 28, 2016)

First step in a State owned Burke Mtn?

http://www.wcax.com/story/32324851/vermont-sets-up-loan-program-for-unpaid-contractors


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 28, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> The thing is, no matter what the maual says, it's been run at higher capacity and speeds for how many decades? And has just undergone a major inspection showing no major defects at this time preventing operation? Isn't that at least partially "proof of concept" that maybe, just maybe, the manual may be slightly off?



In any engineering design, and particularly so for structural design, there are many safety factors built in.  That they could operate the lift at a higher capacity than designed is no surprise.  But doing so is done at the expense of a lower safety factor which is not a good idea.  Running a lift at a higher than designed capacity is akin to delaying maintenance and inspection and is a slow road to disaster.


----------



## WWF-VT (Jun 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> First step in a State owned Burke Mtn?
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/story/32324851/vermont-sets-up-loan-program-for-unpaid-contractors



No


----------



## dlague (Jun 28, 2016)

Sneak peek at Burke Hotel. 

http://www.wcax.com/story/32084770/...rt=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=12469359

I think it said in here that Bill Stenger was staying on board to help the new management at Burke.

Also said erasing all the Q's


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 28, 2016)

dlague said:


> Sneak peek at Burke Hotel.



Looks like a really nice hotel.  Too bad it's going to be operating way under its' potential occupancy.


----------



## JPTracker (Jun 29, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I kind of remember reading that the manual had miscalculated the trams designed capacity. I'm sure the post is in this thread somewhere but I'm to lazy to search for it. I'd agree with you that the capacity will be permanently reduced.




The original capacity was based on the tram without the water tank. They have been running it at full capacity with the water tank all these years.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 29, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> The original capacity was based on the tram without the water tank. They have been running it at full capacity with the water tank all these years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2016)

JPTracker said:


> The original capacity was based on the tram without the water tank. They have been running it at full capacity with the water tank all these years.



Just amazes me that they have not had any issues to date because of this issue.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Just amazes me that they have not had any issues to date because of this issue.



Solid Swiss engineering and construction, huge margins of safety built in.  Run another 50 years easy


----------



## JimG. (Jun 29, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Solid Swiss engineering and construction, huge margins of safety built in.  Run another 50 years easy



Agreed; I think that tram is solid as is.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 30, 2016)

> “Our forensic analysis indicates that Bill Stenger never diverted or  otherwise personally transferred investor money to himself other than  his salary,” Goldberg wrote to the investor. “He is also not a wealthy  man as his home is mortgaged and the funds were used to pay his  children’s and grandchildren’s education. This is much different from  Quiros who wrongfully diverted investor money for his personal benefit.”



http://vtdigger.org/2016/06/29/sec-...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-75f616e0bf-405602665


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/06/29/sec-...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-75f616e0bf-405602665



Not surprising.  Q was clearly that target.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 30, 2016)

Looks like Raymond James has already settled with the state for 5.95 million. Drop in the bucket for them.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 30, 2016)

You should read the Motion filed by Quiros to remove some of the complaints. Interesting to see his take on all this and what he is trying to do to get some of this thrown out.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 30, 2016)

Looks like Quiros is trying to get complaints 1-29 thrown out and also remove the receivership on some of the earlier project, including the Jay Peak resort.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Raymond James has already settled with the state for 5.95 million. Drop in the bucket for them.



Wow, that was all?  :blink:


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jun 30, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, that was all?  :blink:




Yeah that seems like a bargain when you figure they enabled this whole scam to start and function

What has me and others upset is that Andy Stenger got a nice big promotion, hope he can do the job.

Jake Webster was there ~25 years and basically got the resort built up to what it is today, awesome and nicest guy you would ever want to meet. They let him and others go in Jan 16. 

HE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN THAT JOB, fresh bad karma.

Hope this is not indicative of the LHR management style.  

I thought this whole rescue was about investors and employees, seems like Stengers are covered


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 30, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Raymond James has already settled with the state for 5.95 million. Drop in the bucket for them.


Settlement with the SEC will likely be much more significant.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Yeah that seems like a bargain when you figure they enabled this whole scam to start and function
> 
> What has me and others upset is that Andy Stenger got a nice big promotion, hope he can do the job.
> 
> ...



Wow. Really? Why was we let go?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## mbedle (Jul 1, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Settlement with the SEC will likely be much more significant.



I wasn't aware that the SEC had a case against Raymond James.


----------



## bigbog (Jul 1, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Yeah that seems like a bargain when you figure they enabled this whole scam to start and function
> 
> What has me and others upset is that Andy Stenger got a nice big promotion, hope he can do the job.
> 
> ...



Sounds like they came from the firms that designed the financial games that led up to 2008's tumble...or maybe they were Stenger and Quiros's heroes....


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 1, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I wasn't aware that the SEC had a case against Raymond James.


The SEC appointed receiver is suing Raymond James.


----------



## Abubob (Jul 2, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Quiros is trying to get complaints 1-29 thrown out and also remove the receivership on some of the earlier project, including the Jay Peak resort.



Sound like he's just trying to mitigate damage.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## mbedle (Jul 6, 2016)

Abubob said:


> Sound like he's just trying to mitigate damage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



More sounds like he is trying to get back control of Jay Peak. And if you find it odd that Stenger is getting 100K (prorated) for working at Jay Peak, Quiros is getting 180K from Jay Peak for living expenses.


----------



## Abubob (Jul 7, 2016)

mbedle said:


> More sounds like he is trying to get back control of Jay Peak. And if you find it odd that Stenger is getting 100K (prorated) for working at Jay Peak, Quiros is getting 180K from Jay Peak for living expenses.


I don't doubt it.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 12, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/11/quir...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-af6ff8f6b7-286323177


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 12, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/11/quir...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-af6ff8f6b7-286323177



^ That's an entertaining read. lol


----------



## chuckstah (Jul 13, 2016)

From a 30 second google it looks like the Stat of Limitations for civil fraud in VT is 6 years.  He may very well get some of this dropped.  But I'm no lawyer.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2016)

*The latest revelation from Captain Obvious.*


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> *The latest revelation from Captain Obvious.*



The financial incompetence is so mind-boggling it's difficult to even believe. 

  Dont ever let State of Vermont take over VT's healthcare system, or smallpox, polio, whooping cough, tuberculosis, and yellow fever will make a comeback.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> The financial incompetence is so mind-boggling it's difficult to even believe.
> 
> Dont ever let State of Vermont take over VT's healthcare system, or smallpox, polio, whooping cough, tuberculosis, and yellow fever will make a comeback.



They've already spent $100 million on a website that does not work....


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> They've already spent $100 million on a website that does not work....


Not a problem, just raise taxes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 14, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> They've already spent $100 million on a website that does not work....



$100M?  On a website?  That sounds pretty difficult to believe.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 14, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Not a problem, just raise taxes.



In less than 20 years (probably more like 10 or 12) they're going to be Verjersey, they just dont know it yet.  I've seen this movie before, and I know how it ends.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jul 16, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> The financial incompetence is so mind-boggling it's difficult to even believe.
> 
> Dont ever let State of Vermont take over VT's healthcare system, or smallpox, polio, whooping cough, tuberculosis, and yellow fever will make a comeback.




Too late for that 
http://watchdog.org/266740/vermont-refugees-test-positive-for-tuberculosis/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> $100M?  On a website?  That sounds pretty difficult to believe.



Check it out.  It was part of the move towards single payer.  Specifically, it was their idea to set up their own exchange:

https://medium.com/message/vermont-your-bad-website-is-making-people-sick-bd92e521a41b#.gmu3disyw

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2015/03/12/360325.htm

And I stand corrected:  $200 million.  They wasted $333 per Vermonter on it.  And it still does not work.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Check it out.  It was part of the move towards single payer.  Specifically, it was their idea to set up their own exchange:
> 
> https://medium.com/message/vermont-your-bad-website-is-making-people-sick-bd92e521a41b#.gmu3disyw
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure that the US Government actually paid the 200K on the website. So each citizen in the US paid 62 cents for the website.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 18, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I am pretty sure that the US Government actually paid the 200K on the website. So each citizen in the US paid 62 cents for the website.



Trust me, Vermont made its own.....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 18, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Trust me, Vermont made its own.....



I know that Vermont made its own exchange, but the citizens of Vermont were not the only ones to pay for their bad contractors work. Plus, a  lot of the issues that cost the most money had nothing to do with the website. They spent a significant amount of the 200K on upgrading their very outdated medicare database.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 18, 2016)

$200K. I think we're talking a bit more than that.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 19, 2016)

If one's car is broken, would they take it to a politician to fix it or a mechanic?

Then why when people feel that our healthcare system is broken do they look to their politicians (the vast majority of whom aren't actual healthcare providers and have no clue what they day to day ins and outs of what goes into providing healthcare actually are) for answers?  

As someone who does provide care to medicaid patients, most every day I'm in my office, if people actually understood how disfunctional and inefficient the medicaid system is compared to more traditional insurance and/or self pay systems are, and the detrimental effects that from a care givers prospective that trying to work with the medicaid system, the majority of those people who want a government run medicaid/single payer type system, even if they have 1 iota of critical thinking ability, would be very concerned of where the healthcare system in the United States appears to be heading.

What it ultimately gets down to, is there is a driven narrative by many that healthcare should be "free" and those people won't accept anything else in their mind than a system that they feel will get them "free" healthcare.  The reality is that healthcare is a massive industry, and until those that want "free" healthcare can convince all the people who provide healthcare to work for free,  all the companies who manufacture goods and services used in providing direct patient healthcare to do so for free,  all the companies who build the buildings where healthcare is delivered to build them for free, all the towns and cities where various healthcare delivery sites are located to not tax those buildings, the electric and water companies that service those buildings to do so for free, etc, etc, etc. Healthcare is, and always will be a business.

rant over!

Quiros is a guilty!  (back on thread topic now   )


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2016)

I'm going to disagree. I have very good company provided healthcare for my family and pretty much always have for the bulk of my career. I don't want "Free Healthcare", but I do think universal/single payer is the better way to go.  The US spends way to much per capita on healthcare; in the neighborhood of 18% of GDP.

 There are quite literally dozens of countries, many of them with large populations and equally diverse demographics that have government run HC that runs in the neighborhood of 11% of their GDP. Many of these nations offer the same quality of care if not better than what's available in the US.   

Such changes might affect profit margins for me professionally, but at a societal level, things would be better off. Like I said, dozens of examples of countries that prove this out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 19, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I know that Vermont made its own exchange, but the citizens of Vermont were not the only ones to pay for their bad contractors work. Plus, a  lot of the issues that cost the most money had nothing to do with the website. They spent a significant amount of the 200K on upgrading their very outdated medicare database.



The State took on MOST of the cost.  The State made the decisions, not the feds.  It's a big albatross around the neck of the current administration and a big reason why they are stepping down.  

Also, VPR set out an article late last week demonstrating that the administration had information that suggested that things were not right at Jay and "took a calculated risk" to allow them to continue.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The State took on MOST of the cost.  The State made the decisions, not the feds.  It's a big albatross around the neck of the current administration and a big reason why they are stepping down.
> 
> Also, VPR set out an article late last week demonstrating that the administration had information that suggested that things were not right at Jay and "took a calculated risk" to allow them to continue.



Where are you getting that Vermont paid out of its budget 200K for the website? What I've read is that the majority of the costs associated with the website development and updating was paid by a grant from the government. Granted the state where the ones that picked the contractor that screwed things up, and should have gone after them to recoup some of the dollars spent.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Too late for that
> http://watchdog.org/266740/vermont-refugees-test-positive-for-tuberculosis/



This is pretty shocking (assuming it's true).  Is this well-known up in Vermont or is it being swept-under-the-rug?



deadheadskier said:


> I have very good company provided healthcare for my family and pretty much always have for the bulk of my career. I don't want "Free Healthcare", but I do think universal/single payer is the better way to go.  *The US spends way to much per capita on healthcare; in the neighborhood of 18% of GDP.*



Complete government healthcare would bankrupt America.  Not that it really matters I suppose, because we're going bankrupt without government healthcare anyway.

You do these 4 things:

1) Allow insurance companies to operate/compete across state borders
2) Stop aiding & abetting trial lawyers to "milk" the healthcare system
3) Stop subsidizing other nation's healthcare ( a massive cost that goes unmentioned because it's not politically correct)
4) Crack down on Medicare & Medicaid fraud (BILLIONS of dollars stolen EVERY year)

And you'd get a LONG way towards driving down American's healthcare costs.  To Dr Jeff's point though, none of these will likely happen, because, well, politicians.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> VPR set out an article late last week demonstrating that *the administration had information that suggested that things were not right at Jay and "took a calculated risk" to allow them to continue.*



That was unbelievably reckless.   

State of Vermont is trying the play the "lesser of two evils" excuse to absolve themselves of blame, when in reality they knew a crime was being committed. 

 But the "crime" was bringing $$$$ into Vermont and ostensibly creating some jobs, so Vermont now uses that as an excuse to "look the other way" and pretend nothing is wrong.   Jaw-dropping stuff.  _ "Well your honor, I knew investors were being stolen from, but the money was going to a cause that helped us, sooooooooo"
_


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2016)

Also, it would have been extremely embarrassing for State of  Vermont if the Jay Peak / Burke Ponzi scheme became public (which it did anyway), and that makes me  wonder if Vermont HOPED Quiros & Company were going to get away with  it?   

I strongly suspect Vermont's leaders would have said absolutely nothing if Quiros could have kept this Ponzi Scheme running longer_, _rather than having the ugly truth come to light.
*
 A BIG part of this story that seems to be lost on most people, is that State of Vermont only acted like this is a problem once the Feds got involved.  *Once the gig-was-up, Vermont then acted like this was a terrible crime, and worse, laughingly actually TOOK CREDIT in bringing it down!   The balls these people have!   They must think Vermonters are morons.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 19, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Where are you getting that Vermont paid out of its budget 200K for the website? What I've read is that the majority of the costs associated with the website development and updating was paid by a grant from the government. Granted the state where the ones that picked the contractor that screwed things up, and should have gone after them to recoup some of the dollars spent.


Yes the $200M cost for the website was paid for by a federal grant. The state of VT. however pays more than 50% of the estimated $52M annual cost to maintain the website.

Lawrence Miller is the head VT. healthcare reform:

_"The bottom line, according to Lawrence Miller: The state expects to spend $198.7 million to develop its exchange — Vermont Health Connect. Those funds are federal. The exchange handles both individuals and families buying commercial insurance, and Vermonters who are eligible for Medicaid. 

  Miller also reported that the ongoing operating costs are $51.8 million annually, with the state covering just more than half, and the federal government the rest. Big numbers, Miller acknowledged, but he noted that much of the expense was updating the state's antiquated Medicaid enrollment system."
_
 Quoted from an article in Seven Days.


----------



## 4aprice (Jul 19, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> T
> 
> 
> Complete government healthcare would bankrupt America.  Not that it really matters I suppose, because we're going bankrupt without government healthcare anyway.
> ...



Ding, Ding, ding, ding,   We have a winner folks.  Vermont found they didn't have the tax base for it, and they have a tiny population, but then again its Vermont and they can feel the Bern.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## tree_skier (Jul 19, 2016)

Of course to cut costs is simple, but again not politically correct.

      5.  put a cap on malpractice liability
      6.  refuse service to none insured or payment up front
and the big one
      7.  be able to offer coverage a la cart i.e. choose what is covered under your plan or not covered.  To have a health plan without psychiatric, drug/alcoholic and gender reassignment coverage would cost a whole lot less then what we are required to have now.


Complete government healthcare would bankrupt America.  Not that it really matters I suppose, because we're going bankrupt without government healthcare anyway.

You do these 4 things:

1) Allow insurance companies to operate/compete across state borders
2) Stop aiding & abetting trial lawyers to "milk" the healthcare system
3) Stop subsidizing other nation's healthcare ( a massive cost that goes unmentioned because it's not politically correct)
4) Crack down on Medicare & Medicaid fraud (BILLIONS of dollars stolen EVERY year)

And you'd get a LONG way towards driving down American's healthcare costs.  To Dr Jeff's point though, none of these will likely happen, because, well, politicians.[/QUOTE]


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2016)

5. I think is overblown and has very little to do with our ballooning healthcare costs. For every individual that gets a million for a hangnail, there are 3 that don't see a dime. My grandmother will likely be one of the later. She was getting fitted for a new crown. The dentist screwed up and lost a piece of the mold down her throat. For a good ten minutes they tried to suction out the debris, but did not get all of it. He should have sent her to the emergency room for an x-ray. Sent her home, the debris from her crown perforated her bowel and she's now stuck with a colostomy bag for the rest of her life. I don't know about you, but if I'm stuck wearing a bag of shit on my abdomen the rest of my life due to no fault of my own, I'm going to want some compensation.  This has been nearly two years ago and it has yet to go to trial. She's 90 and it's pretty obvious the insurance company is stalling and hope she dies before they have to pay. So who is worse? Her lawyer or the for profit insurance company?

6. Goes against the code of ethics for care providers.  

7. Has some merit.


I still go back to my point that you've got plenty of examples of countries running around 11% cost to GDP with high quality public healthcare.  What you don't have are private healthcare systems in other countries outperforming those numbers.  The arguments against public healthcare are born from political philosophy, not math.  I'd take Japan's system over ours in a heartbeat.


----------



## Abubob (Jul 19, 2016)

How did this become about health care politics? :roll:


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jul 19, 2016)

Abubob said:


> How did this become about health care politics? :roll:



NO snow!

But we did get about 2 inches of marble size hail yesterday here in Jay.
Never too early to start laying down a base.


----------



## tree_skier (Jul 20, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> 5. I think is overblown and has very little to do with our ballooning healthcare costs. For every individual that gets a million for a hangnail, there are 3 that don't see a dime. My grandmother will likely be one of the later. She was getting fitted for a new crown. The dentist screwed up and lost a piece of the mold down her throat. For a good ten minutes they tried to suction out the debris, but did not get all of it. He should have sent her to the emergency room for an x-ray. Sent her home, the debris from her crown perforated her bowel and she's now stuck with a colostomy bag for the rest of her life. I don't know about you, but if I'm stuck wearing a bag of shit on my abdomen the rest of my life due to no fault of my own, I'm going to want some compensation.  This has been nearly two years ago and it has yet to go to trial. She's 90 and it's pretty obvious the insurance company is stalling and hope she dies before they have to pay. So who is worse? Her lawyer or the for profit insurance company?
> 
> 6. Goes against the code of ethics for care providers.
> 
> ...




code of ethics go back to forcing me to pay for someone else.  it is typical government robbery.  To say we don't have socialized healthcare is a farce.  Everyone gets healthcare and some of us have to pay for it.  As an analogy if my friend Q wants some extra cash and the State of Vomit decides he should get some and to do so they will put a carbon tax of 80% on middle aged white male skiers, it's all good.  But if i want some extra cash and decide to take Mr. Q's carbon guzzling ride I go to jail?


----------



## Abubob (Jul 20, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> NO snow!
> 
> But we did get about 2 inches of marble size hail yesterday here in Jay.
> Never too early to start laying down a base.


Always a good sign.

Is it possible to hijack this thread by talking about global warming and the coming ice age?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 20, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> code of ethics go back to forcing me to pay for someone else.  it is typical government robbery.  To say we don't have socialized healthcare is a farce.  Everyone gets healthcare and some of us have to pay for it.  As an analogy if my friend Q wants some extra cash and the State of Vomit decides he should get some and to do so they will put a carbon tax of 80% on middle aged white male skiers, it's all good.  But if i want some extra cash and decide to take Mr. Q's carbon guzzling ride I go to jail?



Code of Ethics isn't some sort of government forced program/robbery. It's the very foundation for why people go into the healthcare profession. You cannot refuse to treat the afflicted for any reason.  Setting up some sort of system whereby clinicians can refuse to treat a patient based upon their financial resources is a dangerous slippery slope to head down.   It suggests that receiving healthcare is a privilege.  It should not be and to some degree in our privatized system, it already is.


----------



## tree_skier (Jul 20, 2016)

Try going to another country.  In Canada if you are not a citizen pay upfront.  Even at the Mount Snow medical center, if you want treatment there either have the insurance through Mount Snow or get your credit card out.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 20, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> Try going to another country.  In Canada if you are not a citizen pay upfront.  Even at the Mount Snow medical center, if you want treatment there either have the insurance through Mount Snow or get your credit card out.



Did not realize we were talking about expectation of care during international travel.  

In the case of Mt. Snow, I'm sure there are limits to refusal.  If someone comes into the clinic and they refuse to stabilize a patient because of no insurance or ability to pay, they would be breaking the law.


----------



## tree_skier (Jul 20, 2016)

a bad law doesn't make things right.  Being a resident of the Socialist Republic of Vermont I hear all the time on how great the Canadian medical system is, however if you are not a citizen you don't get "free" healthcare, yet here you get free healthcare.

On Mount Snow, i have some experience.  We used to have insurance through the mountain so back when it was a full time year round clinic we used it a lot.  Daughter broke her leg, she was in base first aid, we were given 3 options.  1 Ambulance her to either BMH or Bennington, 2 take her our self, 3 go into the clinic and pay before being seen (oh you have mount snow insurance, you can go in no charge to you).  We chose 3 x-rays showed a tib fib fracture with the ends about 2 inches apart.  A long expensive recovery as BMH otho didn't eat the copays/deductibles like mount snow did


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jul 20, 2016)

Can we debate healthcare on its on thread please?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2016)

tree_skier said:


> a bad law doesn't make things right.  Being a resident of the Socialist Republic of Vermont *I hear all the time on how great the Canadian medical system is*, however if you are not a citizen you don't get "free" healthcare, yet here you get free healthcare.



Surely from people who aren't Canadians.  I know plenty of Canadians, it's really no great shakes up there.   They wait, sometimes months, for procedures that are literally considered "routine" here in America.  And wealthy Canucks, especially those in southern Canada, often simply come to America and pay for healthcare rather than getting their "free" Canadian healthcare.  Then there's the issue of Canadian "doctor flight", which is another story altogether regarding how Canada has been losing some of its' best and brightest.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2016)

Are Stenger or Quiros sick or something?


----------



## dlague (Jul 20, 2016)

I forgot what this thread was about!


----------



## 56fish (Jul 21, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Can we debate healthcare on its on thread please?



+ a zillion


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/21/vermont-eb-5-regional-center-director-resigns/

In other news:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/19/southface-village-at-okemo-re-approved/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/07/21/vermont-eb-5-regional-center-director-resigns/
> 
> In other news:



I wouldn't expect any malfeasance on this one.

A) He came into the game in the very late innings.

B) Unlike  Brent Raymond, he has a background that suggests he's capable of doing the job he was hired for.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2016)

On PBS news tonight. Fed's calling it "largest EB-5 fraud"


----------



## mbedle (Jul 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wouldn't expect any malfeasance on this one.
> 
> A) He came into the game in the very late innings.
> 
> B) Unlike  Brent Raymond, he has a background that suggests he's capable of doing the job he was hired for.



Apparently Peak Resorts liked his background so much they hired him!!!!


----------



## mbedle (Jul 29, 2016)

abc said:


> On PBS news tonight. Fed's calling it "largest EB-5 fraud"



I did not hear that during the piece. I did hear Paul say that, not the Government.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Apparently Peak Resorts liked his background so much they hired him!!!!



Which tells you *all *you need to know about just how incredibly corrupt EB-5 is.



abc said:


> On PBS news tonight. Fed's calling it *"largest EB-5 fraud"*



In other breaking news, the sun is a star and dolphin live in water.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2016)

I was wondering when they would update the original story.  It was largely a retread...with some verb tenses changed.  They should have gone up to interview folks in the NEK.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I was wondering when they would update the original story.  It was largely a retread...with some verb tenses changed.  They should have gone up to interview folks in the NEK.


Yeah maybe someone who lives in Utah who's on the save Burke committee


----------



## Tin (Jul 30, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah maybe someone who lives in Utah who's on the save Burke committee



Given you know everything about everything and have to let everyone know of your omnipotence, you should probably call them and give them the scoop.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 30, 2016)

Perhaps


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 31, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah maybe someone who lives in Utah who's on the save Burke committee


The Friends of Burke Mountain Facebook page got over 4,000 likes.  Through some sort of behind the scenes process, a local innkeeper became the visible head of the page.  She recently announced that the name of the Facebook page was changing to "Friends of Burke."  In other words, she dropped the "Mountain" part.  The page has changed its focus to promoting local businesses, such as inns and restaurants.  No self serving there, eh?  Too bad the board didn't step in to do something about it, but maybe they were too far away to really notice.

As a technical matter, a separate Facebook page for the 501(c)(3) group (did they ever get that status?) has been created, but hardly anyone actually knows that - nor had anyone asked for it.

The bottom line is that FOB harnessed the spirit of people that wanted to save the ski area, but changed course and morphed into a second chamber of commerce.  I saw that coming when their professionally produced video featured local businesses, and had nothing at all to do with the mountain itself.

I've heard from some major stakeholders that the group has become more of a hinderance than a help at this point.  Hopefully it gets ironed out.  But at this point it would be much more honest to call themselves, "The Other Burke Chamber of Commerce."


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2016)

> The bottom line is that FOB harnessed the spirit of people that wanted to save the ski area, but changed course and morphed into a second chamber of commerce. I saw that coming when their professionally produced video featured local businesses, and had nothing at all to do with the mountain itself.


Right, that's real smart.

Like they can make Burke great without Burke Mountain pulling in the clientele... 

Unless things are so bad they figure they'll have to survive without the mountain opening?

That would be real sad.


----------



## Rikka (Aug 2, 2016)

Kinda let the genie out of the bottle...they built a lot of good will in a very short period of time....now they want to market Burke to the 4000 who liked the original page. No Thanks....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2016)

As to FOB: not exactly.  A nonprofit has formed and has its own Facebook page. To avoid confusion the other Facebook page was renamed. That's all. Nothing too exciting. No wild conspiracies.  

As to FOB it still is focused on the Burke Mountain Community. Over Memorial Day it coordinated a great "welcome back" event with the mountain. The event raised $3,000 for Kingdom Kids Ski Program. More good events coming. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Aug 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> As to FOB: not exactly.  A nonprofit has formed and has its own Facebook page. To avoid confusion the other Facebook page was renamed. That's all. Nothing too exciting. No wild conspiracies.
> 
> As to FOB it still is focused on the Burke Mountain Community. Over Memorial Day it coordinated a great "welcome back" event with the mountain. The event raised $3,000 for Kingdom Kids Ski Program. More good events coming.


I haven't heard anyone claim that there was a conspiracy.  The talk around town centers around extremely muddled management and a lack of direction.  But yes, there was one event that was extremely positive.  That was great to see.  Sadly, it's also the last entry (May 30th) in their "News and Events" section of the website.  But the mountain has stabilized for the time being.  I can see why people aren't as wound up.  FOB served a purpose when things were bad.  They seem to be trying to find their purpose now that effective management is running the mountain.  I wish them all the best and hope that they figure things out.


----------



## tnt1234 (Aug 3, 2016)

Anyone post this yet:

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/08/pbs-delves-inside-the-jay-peak-fraud-scandal


I keep checking the jay condo resale page wondering if prices will plummet - doesn't really make sense that they would, unless it becomes unlikely they can re-open next season - at which point I wouldn't want one anyway!!  But you know, it's hot as hell in NJ.  I need something to do....


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 3, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> I keep checking the jay condo resale page wondering if prices will plummet - doesn't really make sense that they would, unless it becomes unlikely they can re-open next season - at which point I wouldn't want one anyway!!  But you know, it's hot as hell in NJ.  I need something to do....


I don't think that people have lost faith in the ski area itself.  The only thing that should be putting downward pressure on prices right now is the exchange rate with the Canadian dollar.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Anyone post this yet:
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/08/pbs-delves-inside-the-jay-peak-fraud-scandal
> 
> ...



That's the PBS news story from last week.   Thanks for posting the link.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 3, 2016)

tnt1234 said:


> Anyone post this yet:
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/08/pbs-delves-inside-the-jay-peak-fraud-scandal
> 
> ...



Great minds think alike I guess.

Not only a great place to ski but also provides easy access to Canada.


----------



## billski (Aug 5, 2016)

I crawled out of the woods Wednesday for a couple days and saw a note that it's time for me to purchase bulk tickets.   In preparation for that, I read through about the last 20 pages of this thread trying to catch up on the Q-Tip and BS Massacre.   I'm a little slow here, so please indulge me...  Sarcasm is intentional.

What's your unofficial crystal ball predictions for this upcoming ski season, as it relateds to us skiers/boarders?   I assume JP will operate business as usual, or not?   Who's running the ship over there?   Prices? Services? Lifts?  Employees?

Is Q-Tip Junior still in the mix over at Burke?  Who's running that ship?   Do they have enough working $$ to run snowmaking this year, or open before February? Will they have any employees? Will it even open?  Can we drop the Q-tip from the name, plueeze?   Or is this going to be another one of those "last minute" decisions?

And then, there's poor orphan Newport, which appears to have been trashed and left to die.  Any help for them?  How will this play out for them?   They probably don't even have enough money to bring in a bulldozer and plant grass.    Maybe call the city of Detroit and ask for advice?

Anybody hear the names of any of the EB-5 Investors from the purported 70 countries?   I wonder if any of them are from Sudan or Iraq?  Mr. ISIS maybe?   Maybe they're coming to visit?

So what's the future here?


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't think that people have lost faith in the ski area itself.  The only thing that should be putting downward pressure on prices right now is the exchange rate with the Canadian dollar.



Correct.  The condo market has been very slow prior to the EB5 crisis, and in good part due to the high US dollar.   A third of the owners are canadians.  Prices have stayed constant but I expect them to go down but not because of the EB5 crisis.   IF you cut your buyers market by a third and add more units to the sales pool by Canadians trying to make a quick buck on the exchange rate, you end up with a much larger inventory than normal.  The ridiculously high school taxes for second homes are not helping either.

As a homeowner, I feel that Jay Peak will be in a much better position once it is sold, than it has been in the recent years.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

billski said:


> I crawled out of the woods Wednesday for a couple days and saw a note that it's time for me to purchase bulk tickets.   In preparation for that, I read through about the last 20 pages of this thread trying to catch up on the Q-Tip and BS Massacre.   I'm a little slow here, so please indulge me...  Sarcasm is intentional.
> 
> What's your unofficial crystal ball predictions for this upcoming ski season, as it relateds to us skiers/boarders?   I assume JP will operate business as usual, or not?   Who's running the ship over there?   Prices? Services? Lifts?  Employees?



A receiver is running both.  They are using existing staff to keep things going.  All in all it is status quo, except for Burke.  See below.  They WILL both open.  Receiver has worked very hard to fix things.  



> Is Q-Tip Junior still in the mix over at Burke?  Who's running that ship?   Do they have enough working $$ to run snowmaking this year, or open before February? Will they have any employees? Will it even open?  Can we drop the Q-tip from the name, plueeze?   Or is this going to be another one of those "last minute" decisions?



Ary was canned about 3 weeks after the takeover.  Once he showed the new management where the lights were, where things were, and what he was doing, they said "thanks, you can go now."  He drove his Land Rover into the sunset not to be seen or heard from again in the ski world.  Daddy is gone too.  And yes, it is once again BURKE Mountain.  The Receiver and his management have made that abundantly clear.  



> And then, there's poor orphan Newport, which appears to have been trashed and left to die.  Any help for them?  How will this play out for them?   They probably don't even have enough money to bring in a bulldozer and plant grass.    Maybe call the city of Detroit and ask for advice?



Yeah, it's a mess.  



> Anybody hear the names of any of the EB-5 Investors from the purported 70 countries?   I wonder if any of them are from Sudan or Iraq?  Mr. ISIS maybe?   Maybe they're coming to visit?



Yeah not even funny.  Sorry.  

As to the future--run things and then sell them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

http://burkemtnacademy.org/burke-mountain-advances-as-a-leading-training-site-in-the-united-states/

P.S.  Yeah, that Friends of Burke Mountain Group is not relevant at all.    (Read the last sentence...FOB played a big role in getting the grant for this work.)

New T-Bar and snowmaking coming to Warren's Way next season.


----------



## Abubob (Aug 5, 2016)

billski said:


> So what's the future here?


Maybe it's not quite as bad as all that ...


----------



## JimG. (Aug 5, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Correct.  The condo market has been very slow prior to the EB5 crisis, and in good part due to the high US dollar.   A third of the owners are canadians.  Prices have stayed constant but I expect them to go down but not because of the EB5 crisis.   IF you cut your buyers market by a third and add more units to the sales pool by Canadians trying to make a quick buck on the exchange rate, you end up with a much larger inventory than normal.  The ridiculously high school taxes for second homes are not helping either.
> 
> As a homeowner, I feel that Jay Peak will be in a much better position once it is sold, than it has been in the recent years.



Interesting info; I have more research to do.

Maybe I should buy a place near Montreal.


----------



## billski (Aug 5, 2016)

Thank you gentlemen.  I think I'll crawl back into the woods.  And I don't even want to think about Saddleback or I'll start crying.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

billski said:


> Thank you gentlemen.  I think I'll crawl back into the woods.  And I don't even want to think about Saddleback or I'll start crying.



Saddleback is sad.  At least we have info on Burke.  Saddleback skiers have had over a year of radio silence.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://burkemtnacademy.org/burke-mountain-advances-as-a-leading-training-site-in-the-united-states/
> 
> P.S.  Yeah, that Friends of Burke Mountain Group is not relevant at all.    (Read the last sentence...FOB played a big role in getting the grant for this work.)
> 
> New T-Bar and snowmaking coming to Warren's Way next season.



What was then"big" role?  The press release suggests that they merely endorsed the project.

Will the t-bar be open to the public?


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://burkemtnacademy.org/burke-mountain-advances-as-a-leading-training-site-in-the-united-states/
> 
> P.S.  Yeah, that Friends of Burke Mountain Group is not relevant at all.    (Read the last sentence...FOB played a big role in getting the grant for this work.)
> 
> New T-Bar and snowmaking coming to Warren's Way next season.



Last but not least heh.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> What was then"big" role?  The press release suggests that they merely endorsed the project.



The organization submitted a detailed letter in support of the project.  Members of the board, who used to work for Leahy and Welch, also contacted those folks to ask for their help.    



> Will the t-bar be open to the public?



Good question.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> The organization submitted a detailed letter in support of the project.  Members of the board, who used to work for Leahy and Welch, also contacted those folks to ask for their help.


As I suspected - an endorsement.  Nice to hear.  How odd that they don't know if the "friends" will even be able to use it.  Hopefully that answer is forthcoming.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> As I suspected - an endorsement.  Nice to hear.  How odd that they don't know if the "friends" will even be able to use it.  Hopefully that answer is forthcoming.



Endorsement?  Sure, but it was more involved than that.  Good advocacy?  Yes.  People using connections to help?  Yes.   

BMA has been kind of important for Burke.  To put it this way, if it was not for BMA then there would not be Burke Mountain.  All race programs that use the mountain will now have this nice asset.  I call it a nice thing for the community.  I'm sure that an Email to Michael Sher regarding the access issue for the general public would get the issue before the powers to be.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

I'm just surprised that they never thought to ask this question.  That's all.  Maybe they were busy promoting a local inn or bakery.

By the way, I'm about six weeks into my new job and couldn't be happier.  I have you to thank in large part.  My hiatus was a fantastic blessing for this reason alone.  It got me focusing on things that were much more important.  So please accept my sincere thanks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm just surprised that they never thought to ask this question.  That's all.  Maybe they were busy promoting a local inn or bakery.



I guess they will never be as perfect as you are.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess they will never be as perfect as you are.


No need to be rude.  I didn't say anything about you personally - other than to give you thanks.  I'm not sure why you felt entitled to make a personal attack in light of that.  Let's try to stay positive, eh?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> No need to be rude.  I didn't say anything about you personally - other than to give you thanks.  I'm not sure why you felt entitled to make a personal attack in light of that.  Let's try to stay positive, eh?



I am responding to the fact that you have a real bone with these folks for whatever reason.  That's all.  Either join them or move on.  Coming on here to nitpick them really serves no purpose.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I am responding to the fact that you have a real bone with these folks for whatever reason.  That's all.  Either join them or move on.  Coming on here to nitpick them really serves no purpose.


I see not much has changed in my absence.  I'm glad that I only pop in infrequently now.  And again, you were the only one that made a personal insult.  I stuck to a skiing related topic, even if you didn't like my message.  A little self reflection won't kill you, you know.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I see not much has changed in my absence.  I'm glad that I only pop in infrequently now.  And again, you were the only one that made a personal insult.  I stuck to a skiing related topic, even if you didn't like my message.  A little self reflection won't kill you, you know.



As I said, you obviously are perfect.  Have a nice night.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> As I said, you obviously are perfect.  Have a nice night.


I'm far from perfect.  Very far.  I'm just not the one who engaged in a personal insult - and is continuing to do so despite my request that you stop.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm far from perfect.  Very far.  I'm just not the one who engaged in a personal insult - and is continuing to do so despite my request that you stop.



Here's the bottom line: the community had a great day today and the Mountain is getting a nice investment that will benefit everyone.  Instead of being happy you were critical of the project and the folks who put a lot of time and energy into making it happen.  

As to the personal insult line, come on.  

It was a good day for Burke.  I'm pretty happy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

In other news, the receiver stated in a recent filing that Jay Peak loses money in the summer.  I know that many people had hoped otherwise, but we now have confirmation that the "build it and they will come" plan didn't pan out year round.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2016)

Gotta love certain so called moderators on here. Not all but some have massive ego's


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Here's the bottom line: the community had a great day today and the Mountain is getting a nice investment that will benefit everyone.  Instead of being happy you were critical of the project and the folks who put a lot of time and energy into making it happen.
> 
> As to the personal insult line, come on.
> 
> It was a good day for Burke.  I'm pretty happy.


I'm happy that the Poma is going to become a t-bar too.  I never suggested otherwise. Go back and read what I wrote. I wasn't critical at all about the project.  If my being disappointed that FOB has no clue whether or not the resource will be available to the public is upsetting to you, I honestly don't know what to say.  Personally, if I lend support to a project, I like to fully educate myself about the project first.  It's fine if you disagree, but I hardly think that my style is radical or negative.  In my line of work, knowledge of the facts is vital.  Maybe I just take it forgranted because of my job.  I suppose others may put less of an emphasis on fact gathering.  Or perhaps FOB's leadership just didn't care about the public component.  Who knows.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Gotta love certain so called moderators on here. Not all but some have massive ego's



I cannot compete with you in that department!

Back to Burke: wondering if there are any serious buyers in the near future.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2016)

ego: An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I cannot compete with you in that department!
> 
> Back to Burke: wondering if there are any serious buyers in the near future.


Did you seriously just do a, "I know you're are, but what am I?"  . You're too funny!  At least some humor has finally been injected into tonight's conversation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Did you seriously just do a, "I know you're are, but what am I?"  . You're too funny!  At least some humor has finally been injected into tonight's conversation.



Quoting Pee Wee Herman is what's funny. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Quoting Pee Wee Herman is what's funny.


You make me laugh!  With that high note, good night!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2016)

VTK what are you doing to help out Burke Mountain?


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## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> VTK what are you doing to help out Burke Mountain?


A second moderator setting the stage to engage in personal criticism, eh?  

I refer you to the forum rules:
Off Topic: Some topics are not open for discussion. Posts or threads containing references to disputes on other forums, *personal attacks against other members, *over the top sarcasm, etc. will be at risk for being deleted

Score so far: 
Moderators - 2 (1 actual, 1 attempt)
Me - 0

So much for leadership by example.

In any event, the answer to your question is, "More than you could imagine if I was authorized to tell you, which I'm ethically not at this time."  Criticize me for being vague if you'd like, but I don't bend on issues involving ethical obligations.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2016)

How is asking a question criticism?


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## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> How is asking a question criticism?


I said that you were setting the stage.  At least be honest.  It wasn't exactly subtle.  Or do you expect us to believe that you wouldn't have engaged in any personal criticism if my answer was, "nothing"?

I'll tell you what I'm not doing.  I'm not raising money under the pretense of providing direct support to the ski area only to spend it on a professional video that promotes competing lodging establishments.  My work is MUCH more direct.  I'm comfortable saying that.

With that, assuming you don't wish to discuss this further, I'm out of here for another month or so.  I've reached my threshold.  Au revoir!


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2016)

It was an honest question. You've been one of the most vocal critics of Burke while under the Q. You are now one of the most vocal critics of how community efforts up there are going since things fell apart.

The observation is you are never happy with what's going on. There's never a doubt that you're passionate though.

So, I'm asking an honest question. What are you doing to help bring the mountain and community to a place where you'll be satisfied.

If your efforts are so deep that you aren't legally authorized to tell me what they are, well then that's pretty cool. Double secret agent level stuff.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 6, 2016)

Incorrect.  I think that community efforts are now absolutely fantastic. Don't mistake my criticism of one or two actions by a single component to be a criticism of the whole.  

Look at the wonderful things BMA is doing and the leadership role they have taken. Look at the professionalism of the receiver.  Things are so much better now than they were under Q.

We are truly blessed to have had the receivership.  The receiver has single handedly given the community a sense of stability and a sense of optimism.  The receiver has lots of work left to be done, but so far they have done exemplary work.  No other person/organization has done more for the community than the receiver has done.  The receiver is the reason the FOB Facebook page turned from substantive operational discussion to mostly the posting of photos of sunsets over Burke Mountain and restaurant recommendations.  That says a lot given how wound up the community was.  The receiver has been so effective that most people I speak with now see FOB as a solution in search of a problem. Who would have ever predicted that?

Now we just need to find a buyer... but that's where my ability to discuss this must ethically end.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2016)

Got it.

Glad things are going well with the receiver.

 Good luck brokering a sale. We all hope it happens as skiers who love the mountain.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> In other news, *the receiver stated in a recent filing that Jay Peak loses money in the summer. * I know that many people had hoped otherwise



Wait, that really happened?  Hah.  I'm getting tired of taking victory laps here or I'd write more, but net/net my WAG assumptions on H2o park & golf economics last year probably weren't all that far off.



VTKilarney said:


> A second moderator setting the stage to engage in personal criticism, eh?



DHS has a point though.  

It's one thing to be critical of another's opinion or ideas, but when that person seems to at least be invested in positive change, I dont see the value in going 100% attack mode, especially if you're not doing same (or similar) to effect positive change.  Now, if you disagree in the MANNER in which someone thinks beneficial change can come, that's fair game, but it seems counterproductive to attack an honest effort at something positive if you're not equally working for a good outcome.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 8, 2016)

Jay Peak receiver defers payment due to cash shortage

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...er-defers-payment-due-cash-shortage/88393868/


----------



## billski (Aug 8, 2016)

I just got an email from JPR offering me 30% lodging at the Stateside hotel, lift ticket and waterpark this winter.  Ain't good during Christmas or Presi week.  2 people $199 per night.  I suppose if the lifts aren't running the water park will be.  Or visa-versa?  
Gee, I have to book by August 22nd.  I'm sure that should help out by bringing in at least $500 in deposits...


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The receiver is the reason the FOB Facebook page turned from substantive operational discussion to mostly the posting of photos of sunsets over Burke Mountain and restaurant recommendations.  That says a lot given how wound up the community was.  The receiver has been so effective that most people I speak with now see FOB as a solution in search of a problem. Who would have ever predicted that?



At the risk of starting another go round, I have to correct one thing here and that is that you're conflating two Facebook pages into one.  The Friends of Burke Mountain FB Page is, again, for the non-profit and has been regularly putting out info on the mountain directly from the receiver.  The FOB Group has been working closely with the receiver.  The other FB page is just an open community page that does now have a lot of sunset pictures, etc.  The two are not the same.


----------



## machski (Aug 8, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Jay Peak receiver defers payment due to cash shortage
> 
> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...er-defers-payment-due-cash-shortage/88393868/



Yeah, defers payment to himself.  Don't think there is much of a story here, receiverships always add costs to a business operation if operated in that fashion for a timeframe like Jay/Burke will be.
We added a few bucks this weekend by going to the pump house.  It wasn't jam packed, but a pretty good crowd.  The bar tender was pretty bored though.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 8, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> At the risk of starting another go round, I have to correct one thing here and that is that you're conflating two Facebook pages into one.  The Friends of Burke Mountain FB Page is, again, for the non-profit and has been regularly putting out info on the mountain directly from the receiver.  The FOB Group has been working closely with the receiver.  The other FB page is just an open community page that does now have a lot of sunset pictures, etc.  The two are not the same.


Yes, that happened downstream.  Most folks weren't even aware of the change at first.  

In other news... VTDigger has more information about summer operations.  Here is a quote:
"Goldberg said in an interview that the resort typically relies on surplus monies from winter ski receipts to hold the resort over the off-season that runs from May to October. But this year, because of the fraud and lack of snow, Jay Peak didn’t have the $7 million to $8 million in cash it needed to adequately fund operations this summer. In addition, the resort needed $5 million in repairs to the tram, which ferries tourists to the top of Jay Peak."


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Yes, that happened downstream.  Most folks weren't even aware of the change at first.
> 
> In other news... VTDigger has more information about summer operations.  Here is a quote:
> 
> "Goldberg said in an interview that *the resort typically relies on surplus monies from winter ski receipts to hold the resort over the off-season that runs from May to October. But this year, because of the fraud and lack of snow, Jay Peak didn’t have the $7 million to $8 million in cash it needed to adequately fund operations this summer.* In addition, the resort needed $5 million in repairs to the tram, which ferries tourists to the top of Jay Peak."



Unless this paragraph is written a bit clumsily, this means Jay Peak loses money non-winter, inclusive of the golf and water park and hotel etc...


----------



## Edd (Aug 9, 2016)

billski said:


> I just got an email from JPR offering me 30% lodging at the Stateside hotel, lift ticket and waterpark this winter.  Ain't good during Christmas or Presi week.  2 people $199 per night.  I suppose if the lifts aren't running the water park will be.  Or visa-versa?
> Gee, I have to book by August 22nd.  I'm sure that should help out by bringing in at least $500 in deposits...



That's refundable, right? Pretty good deal, if so. If not, I'd never commit so far in advance.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Unless this paragraph is written a bit clumsily, this means Jay Peak loses money non-winter, inclusive of the golf and water park and hotel etc...


I read it as saying that, even with all of the EB-5 improvements, they lose $7 to $8 million in the summer.  I've always maintained that they lost money. Just spend a day there and it's painfully obvious.  In a decent snow year they still may make money overall, but some people swore that unicorns were dancing on rainbows during the summer.  The one downside, even if they make money overall, is that the summer deficit sucks up money that could have been better spent for other things.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2016)

Until folks see the balance sheets over the course of a five year period as this business does ebb and flow with weather and economic trends, I honestly don't see a point in speculating based off a couple VTDigger articles.  

Doing victory laps based upon the limited information still available is a bad look even if it makes your ego warm.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/08/rece...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-248bbf3602-405558657


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Until folks see the balance sheets over the course of a five year period as this business does ebb and flow with weather and economic trends, I honestly don't see a point in speculating based off a couple VTDigger articles.
> 
> Doing victory laps based upon the limited information still available is a bad look even if it makes your ego warm.


You are trying to make something where nothing exists.  I merely pointed out that many people believed that during the past couple of years, thanks to EB-5 improvements, they have made money in the summer.  That's all.  Nobody was speculating about the future.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2016)

My understanding was that the terrible winter, the expensive Tram fix, and other unexpected costs have made this year a challenge.  I am not at all surprised that they needed short-term financing to get through the period.  In fact, Steve Wright said in an interview back in May that Jay, like other resorts, always took out financing for summer and lean times and this year was having trouble getting it.

As to the long term trends over the last few years, it is anyone's guess.  Only Q and Stenger really know.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You are trying to make something where nothing exists.  I merely pointed out that *many people believed that during the past couple of years, thanks to EB-5 improvements, they have made money in the summer.  *That's all.  Nobody was speculating about the future.



Yup, and there's just no way that's possible given the following:



> Goldberg said in an interview that the resort* typically* relies on  surplus monies from winter ski receipts to hold the resort over the  off-season that runs from May to October. But this year, because of the  fraud and lack of snow, Jay Peak didn’t have the *$7 million to $8  million in cash it needed to adequately fund operations *this summer. In  addition, the resort needed $5 million in repairs to the tram, which  ferries tourists to the top of Jay Peak.



There's little ambiguity around the word, _"typically"_, and there's not a snowball's chance in hades JP brings in > $7M or $8M from May to October for a breakeven.  Not happening.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 12, 2016)

New report on this...

https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-..._Receivers_First_Interim_Report_8-12-16-1.pdf

Apparently Stenger owns Burke Mountain Resort with Quiros. Apparently Burke Mountain Resort is owned by Q Burke LP, with a General Partner being Q Burke GP with general partners Stenger and Quiros.  
Direct from report - Burke's level of competency and controls were severely lacking with the exception of a few individuals. Almost all senior management at Burke was terminated and Burke's operations were completely reorganized...


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 15, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/15/jay-peak-receiver-hires-attorney-lobby-congress-eb-5-changes/


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/15/jay-peak-receiver-hires-attorney-lobby-congress-eb-5-changes/



Thought that was an interesting article.  In particular because the Receiver is lobbying Congress to allow the investors to get their Visas...even if their project did not even start (AnCBio).  

And someone in the biz answer me this: why are EB-5 programs in particular so ripe for fraud?  Is it simply because people can raise a sh^*-ton of money with little or no oversight at all?

I believe that the article also said that the Receiver is considering suing the Feds.  What about the State of Vermont?


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 15, 2016)

Ann Galloway needs to be given an award for her articles in this day of media manipulation.Great work.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Ann Galloway needs to be given an award for her articles in this day of media manipulation.Great work.



She has requested, and reviewed, thousands of pages of documents in her reporting on this whole thing.  Unreal.


----------



## dlague (Aug 15, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/15/jay-peak-receiver-hires-attorney-lobby-congress-eb-5-changes/



Wow this has a lot more detail about what was or is be seized.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 15, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Thought that was an interesting article.  In particular because the Receiver is lobbying Congress to allow the investors to get their Visas...even if their project did not even start (AnCBio).
> 
> And someone in the biz answer me this: why are EB-5 programs in particular so ripe for fraud?  Is it simply because people can raise a sh^*-ton of money with little or no oversight at all?
> 
> I believe that the article also said that the Receiver is considering suing the Feds.  What about the State of Vermont?



Given the amount of money generated by the EB-5 program over the years, I wouldn't consider it particular so ripe for fraud. When you compare the amount of money involved in EB-5 fraud cases with other cases of fraud in the US, its really very small. Think of Enron - 78 Billion and Bernie - 65 Billion fraud cases. But I do agree that the fraud takes place because of lack of oversight and also that the money is coming from individuals that are not Americans, nor located here. I think there is sort of a attitude that "hey, they got their visas, who gives a crap about the return..."


----------



## mbedle (Aug 15, 2016)

I wonder how the class action lawsuit is going to work out for the investors. I could see the investors in the first couple projects, electing to opt out of it since their projects are up and running. Albeit, those projects were completed with money stolen from the later projects. You would also think that if they do file claims against everyone and anyone to recover their money and it ultimately is going to hurt the receivership in recover of money also. Kind of seems counter-intuitive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Given the amount of money generated by the EB-5 program over the years, I wouldn't consider it particular so ripe for fraud. When you compare the amount of money involved in EB-5 fraud cases with other cases of fraud in the US, its really very small. Think of Enron - 78 Billion and Bernie - 65 Billion fraud cases. But I do agree that the fraud takes place because of lack of oversight and also that the money is coming from individuals that are not Americans, nor located here. I think there is sort of a attitude that "hey, they got their visas, who gives a crap about the return..."



True that the dollar amounts are not the same, but this is as least the second major fraud case with EB-5 projects in a relatively short amount of time.  The Chicago scam was pretty bad.


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 15, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Given the amount of money generated by the EB-5 program over the years, I wouldn't consider it particular so ripe for fraud. When you compare the amount of money involved in EB-5 fraud cases with other cases of fraud in the US, its really very small. Think of Enron - 78 Billion and Bernie - 65 Billion fraud cases. But I do agree that the fraud takes place because of lack of oversight and also that the money is coming from individuals that are not Americans, nor located here. I think there is sort of a attitude that "hey, they got their visas, who gives a crap about the return..."



On this side of the border, a fraud in the 30 millions range would be qualified as a major fraud.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> On this side of the border, a fraud in the 30 millions range would be qualified as a major fraud.



I guess we like our fraud big here in the US.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 15, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I wonder how the class action lawsuit is going to work out for the investors. I could see the investors in the first couple projects, electing to opt out of it since their projects are up and running. Albeit, those projects were completed with money stolen from the later projects. You would also think that if they do file claims against everyone and anyone to recover their money and it ultimately is going to hurt the receivership in recover of money also. Kind of seems counter-intuitive.


From the article:

_Another 300 investors have already received permanent green cards, but Goldberg says their immigration status could also be in jeopardy. The U.S. Customs and Immigration Service can, for up to five years from the date a permanent green card is issued to EB-5 investors, revoke permanent residency. Goldberg says correspondence from USCIS indicates the feds are questioning the improper transfer of money among the Jay Peak entities and whether investors’ investments have resulted in the requisite job creation

_


----------



## mbedle (Aug 19, 2016)

Today is the deadline for Stenger to file a motion with the SEC or reach a settlement. I would guess that if he gives up his ownership in all the GPs and the Burke ski resort, pay a fine, become a witness for the SEC, they will reach a settlement.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 20, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Today is the deadline for Stenger to file a motion with the SEC or reach a settlement. I would guess that if he gives up his ownership in all the GPs and the Burke ski resort, pay a fine, become a witness for the SEC, they will reach a settlement.


http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/19/jay-peak-ceo-asks-court-filing-extension/

Stenger has been cooperating with the SEC over the past four months and remains a fixture at the resort where he issues memos to staff, ushers guests and potential new investors around and draws a $100,000 a year salary. *In addition, he uses a condo at Jay Peak, drives a luxury Audi paid for by the resort, and fills up his gas tank with company petrol.*


----------



## mbedle (Aug 20, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/19/jay-peak-ceo-asks-court-filing-extension/
> 
> Stenger has been cooperating with the SEC over the past four months and remains a fixture at the resort where he issues memos to staff, ushers guests and potential new investors around and draws a $100,000 a year salary. *In addition, he uses a condo at Jay Peak, drives a luxury Audi paid for by the resort, and fills up his gas tank with company petrol.*



And your point is?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 20, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/19/jay-peak-ceo-asks-court-filing-extension/
> 
> Stenger has been cooperating with the SEC over the past four months and remains a fixture at the resort where he issues memos to staff, ushers guests and potential new investors around and draws a $100,000 a year salary. *In addition, he uses a condo at Jay Peak, drives a luxury Audi paid for by the resort, and fills up his gas tank with company petrol.*



Welcome to April.


----------



## freeski (Aug 21, 2016)

If what SB1 is saying is true and Stenger knew about the fraud then this is BS. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but if there's evidence he knew he shouldn't be allowed to step foot on the properties. Has VT filed there own criminal charges? Is VT trying to drag this out so "the children call him Big Nose" is gone?


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 21, 2016)

freeski said:


> If what SB1 is saying is true and Stenger new about the fraud then this is BS.


I didn't say anything. That was quoted straight from the article I posted.


----------



## freeski (Aug 21, 2016)

So Stenger is working there. I've seen other reports also. Do the people working for the government think he didn't know about the Ponzi scheme? If they think there's a chance he knew he shouldn't be working there.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 21, 2016)

freeski said:


> So *Stenger is working there.* I've seen other reports also. *Do the people working for the government think he didn't know about the Ponzi scheme? If they think there's a chance he knew he shouldn't be working there.*



Stenger's guilty as hell.   

You'd need to apply the same level of willing-suspension-of-disbelief that's required when watching a Marvel Comics movie to believe Stenger had no idea about what was going on. 

 The fact that Stenger still has a relatively active "support" role and isn't being "mud-raked" in the open media like Quiros, is, IMO, great evidence that Stenger is singing like a canary and dishing the goods on Quiros, who is the primary target/crook in this caper.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 21, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Stenger has been cooperating with the SEC over the past four months and remains a fixture at the resort where he issues memos to staff, ushers guests and potential new investors around and draws a annual $100,000 a year salary.


 Quiros is allowed $15,000 a month living expenses. 

Who's better off?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 22, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> The fact that Stenger still has a relatively active "support" role and isn't being "mud-raked" in the open media like Quiros, is, IMO, great evidence that Stenger is singing like a canary and dishing the goods on Quiros, who is the primary target/crook in this caper.



You nailed that on the head...


----------



## skiberg (Aug 22, 2016)

Sounds to me like the Fed's are after Quiros criminally. Fed's take a long time to build a case and do an excellent job at it. The Civil liability is not the biggest deal to the Defendant's, but if the Fed's charge anyone criminally, they are screwed. Fed's win over 95% of cases they prosecute. If they charge Quiros, he is going to jail for a while.


----------



## mriceyman (Aug 22, 2016)

skiberg said:


> Sounds to me like the Fed's are after Quiros criminally. Fed's take a long time to build a case and do an excellent job at it. The Civil liability is not the biggest deal to the Defendant's, but if the Fed's charge anyone criminally, they are screwed. Fed's win over 95% of cases they prosecute. If they charge Quiros, he is going to jail for a while.



He will go to a country club not a jail.



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## doublediamond (Aug 23, 2016)

skiberg said:


> Fed's win over 95% of cases they prosecute.



That's because nearly all cases end in a plea deal.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 23, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> That's because nearly all cases end in a plea deal.


It's also because the Feds tend not to file criminal charges unless they have an overwhelming amount of evidence to convict.  They aren't known for taking risks, to put it politely.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2016)

So UN is reporting that the receiver just turned down a $93 million offer to buy Jay Peak.  

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/08/receiver-turns-down-93-million-offer-to-buy-jay-peak

Consider the source.


----------



## ironhippy (Aug 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So UN is reporting that the receiver just turned down a $93 million offer to buy Jay Peak.
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/08/receiver-turns-down-93-million-offer-to-buy-jay-peak
> 
> Consider the source.



Their source is the VT digger: http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/23/receiver-rebuffs-93-million-offer-jay-peak/



> “The property is not being sold to Bellwether. We’re not even selling it at this point,” Goldberg said in an email Tuesday. “It was an unsolicited offer.”


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2016)

ironhippy said:


> Their source is the VT digger: http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/23/receiver-rebuffs-93-million-offer-jay-peak/



Ah, OK.  I'd trust VTD over UN.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 24, 2016)

_"__A Henry W. Johnson in Florida, according to a public records search, is associated with more than 40 corporations, including at least seven with the same Boca Raton address."_

Sounds like another dude in the mold of Q Sr.


----------



## dlague (Aug 24, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> _"__A Henry W. Johnson in Florida, according to a public records search, is associated with more than 40 corporations, including at least seven with the same Boca Raton address."_
> 
> Sounds like another dude in the mold of Q Sr.




Sounds like another shady deal!  I would hope that Jay Peak would land in the hands of a business already associated with the ski industry.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 24, 2016)

dlague said:


> Sounds like another shady deal!  I would hope that Jay Peak would land in the hands of a business already associated with the ski industry.



Which is probably why the receiver pretty much told them to GTFO.


----------



## River19 (Aug 24, 2016)

That whole offer to buy sounds like Q all over again......dude with 40 companies or something like that etc.  Glad they turned that mess down.  For all we know this new dude is another "Bill Kelly"......lol


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 24, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Which is probably why the receiver pretty much told them to GTFO.



Definitely.   I doubt the receiver would have turned down a 91M offer from a reputable ski management company.  Considering the recent 182M sale of Park City Resort, or the roughly 1BUS$ sale of Whistler Blackcomb (or 100M for the Canyons in 2008 and 83M for Killington and Pico in 2007), I would think 91M$ is in the upper range of what Jay Peak is worth.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 24, 2016)

I doubt the entire thing.  The offer price versus what we know regarding recent year's income, their debt, etc.. makes no sense to me.


----------



## chuckstah (Aug 24, 2016)

If I was the receiver I'd take the $90 mil plus from anyone and run fast!  Very unlikely to get a better offer. If the payment clears hand then the keys.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> If I was the receiver I'd take th $90 mil plus from anyone and run fast!  Very unlikely to get a better offer. If the payment clrars hand then the keys.



Something just smells odd about this whole thing.  Including the "Pixar" reference.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Something just smells odd about this whole thing.  Including the "Pixar" reference.



Jay has a kids mountain center that has a Burton riglet park.  there are disney pixar characters in the park.
And yes this blind offer seems strange.
WE can all agree that some transparency of financial matters at the resort would be a good thing.

I'd love a legit offer at some point where the suitor  engages the locals, employees and eb-5 individuals and says lets go ski and make the mountain even greater


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 24, 2016)

I'd think the SEC case would have to be settled first before any sale could be considered.


----------



## dlague (Aug 24, 2016)

Apparently with a like address to the Q's businesses in Boca Raton  there is definitely a huge connection to the Qs.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 25, 2016)

There are a ton of virtual offices located on Glades Road in Boca Raton. The guy referenced in the article is a real estate lawyer with 36 years of experience and a real office in Coral Springs, FL. I would guess that the virtual company was setup by him to facilitate the purchase of the resort on behalf of Bellwether Asset Management, which solely does consulting work for Oaktree Capital Management, LP (98 billion in assets). That would also explain the 42 other companies associated with him, of which only 15 are active.


----------



## dlague (Aug 25, 2016)

mbedle said:


> There are a ton of virtual offices located on Glades Road in Boca Raton. The guy referenced in the article is a real estate lawyer with 36 years of experience and a real office in Coral Springs, FL. I would guess that the virtual company was setup by him to facilitate the purchase of the resort on behalf of Bellwether Asset Management, which solely does consulting work for Oaktree Capital Management, LP (98 billion in assets). That would also explain the 42 other companies associated with him, of which only 15 are active.



Wow great investigative work - where do you find the time?


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 25, 2016)

When the receiver is cleared to sell (which he is not yet), isn't his job to get the biggest check possible for the investors?  If Ronald McDonald wants to buy Jay, as long as his check clears why should the receiver care?  His duty is to the investors, not the customers.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 25, 2016)

dlague said:


> Wow great investigative work - where do you find the time?



Morning coffee before work!


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> When the receiver is cleared to sell (which he is not yet), isn't his job to get the biggest check possible for the investors?  If Ronald McDonald wants to buy Jay, as long as his check clears why should the receiver care?  His duty is to the investors, not the customers.



Whether or not the investors get their visa may potentially be related to what the prospective buyer will do with the resort.  Some investor would rather get their green card than money back so I don't think it's that simple.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Whether or not the investors get their visa may potentially be related to what the prospective buyer will do with the resort.  Some investor would rather get their green card than money back so I don't think it's that simple.


 
Jay already has most of it's EB-5 projects completed so those investors are covered. Same thing over at Burke. It's the investors in the Newport & airport projects, which likely will never be completed, whose green cards are in jeopardy.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 25, 2016)

It's pretty standard to set up separate business entities for each piece of real estate.  A way to limit liability.  I've even seen a general contractor set up a separate corporation for individual construction projects.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 25, 2016)

fwiw, this blog post mentions the jay peak tram.  It's an interesting read.
https://liftblog.com/2016/08/22/will-north-america-build-a-new-tram-ever-again/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> fwiw, this blog post mentions the jay peak tram.  It's an interesting read.
> https://liftblog.com/2016/08/22/will-north-america-build-a-new-tram-ever-again/



Very well-written article.  Especially given the author is a tram-hater.



> _Jay Peak, Snowbird and Gatlinburg *could similarly replace their  tramways with more efficient and less expensive gondolas.  There’s a  reason 178 gondolas have been built in North America in the same time as  23 tramways *between 1962 and 2016. The Jay Peak Tram will get $4.9 million in upgrades next  spring that could extend its life for a few decades.  The  project includes new tower saddles, controls, carriages, drives and  safety systems.  *Setting aside tradition, it’s tough to argue this makes  financial or technical sense.*_



Preach on brother.....preach on.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Very well-written article.  Especially given the author is a tram-hater.
> 
> 
> 
> Preach on brother.....preach on.



I was going to say--didn't you write that article?


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Very well-written article.  Especially given the author is a tram-hater.
> 
> 
> 
> Preach on brother.....preach on.



He did miss the fact that the Cannon tram was a replacement of the original. It was mentioned and acknowledged in the comments though.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 25, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Very well-written article.  Especially given the author is a tram-hater.
> 
> 
> 
> Preach on brother.....preach on.



That article makes no mention of the fact that Jay Peak's summit has very limited terrain and that adding the extra capacity of a gondola would be detrimental to the skiing experience. I put it in the same level as the Lone Peak tram at Big Sky.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Aug 25, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That article makes no mention of the fact that Jay Peak's summit has very limited terrain and that adding the extra capacity of a gondola would be detrimental to the skiing experience. I put it in the same level as the Lone Peak tram at Big Sky.



Peter from Lift Blog here.  A gondola could have any capacity Jay Peak wanted.  Crystal Mt. built one a few years back with only 23 cabins instead of a planned tram.  Jay could put 10 gondolas on it and it still might make more sense than dumping $5 million into that tram.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Peter from Lift Blog here.  A gondola could have any capacity Jay Peak wanted.  Crystal Mt. built one a few years back with only 23 cabins instead of a planned tram.  Jay could put 10 gondolas on it and it still might make more sense than dumping $5 million into that tram.



Sure, but I think most here arguing to have it replaced want increased capacity.

If you keep the capacity the same the only difference is paying likely$10+ million for a shiny new thing you still have to take your skis off for, but can sit down vs $5M to refurbish what you have already that you still have to take off your skis for and stand.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 25, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> That article makes no mention of the fact that Jay Peak's summit has very limited terrain and that adding the extra capacity of a gondola would be detrimental to the skiing experience. I put it in the same level as the Lone Peak tram at Big Sky.


Actually the long range plan (2025) is to up the capacity of the Lone Peak Tram, they haven't mentioned a number. I think the present capacity is 16. Hardly comparable to Jay's Tram.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2016)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Peter from Lift Blog here.*  A gondola could have any capacity Jay Peak wanted.*  Crystal Mt. built one a few years back with only 23 cabins instead of a planned tram.  Jay could put 10 gondolas on it and it still might make more sense than dumping $5 million into that tram.



Not only that, but even if any "summit issues" were in fact valid (I dont think they are) you could just terminate the gondola slightly lower (there's a perfect spot for it) and run a relatively inexpensive short double to the summit.  IMO, that would be the most efficient layout possible for Jay Peak.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 26, 2016)

There was a summit chair at Jay, just before the tram.  The skyline double.
I was not there for the old skyline, but friends said it was great for late season turns.

As far as a gondola, good luck.   You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
Would not want to try that with a 6-8  passenger box, it would be on wind hold more than the tram.

70-80+ mph winds regularly on the summit there. People think the mountain is bullshi11ing when they shut down the tram and flyer on certain days. I've been there, its an experience


Cheers


----------



## doublediamond (Aug 26, 2016)

Jay once had a summit double


----------



## dlague (Aug 26, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> There was a summit chair at Jay, just before the tram.  The skyline double.
> I was not there for the old skyline, but friends said it was great for late season turns.
> 
> As far as a gondola, good luck.   You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
> ...



Flyer gets interesting once you get in the open area heading over Alligator Alley - winds can be killer.  Two years ago, we were skiing at Jay and we happen to catch the last tram up before they shut it down - holy crap, my wife was terrified.  Swaying back and forth over Face Chutes.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 26, 2016)

dlague said:


> Flyer gets interesting once you get in the open area heading over Alligator Alley - winds can be killer.  Two years ago, we were skiing at Jay and we happen to catch the last tram up before they shut it down - holy crap, my wife was terrified.  Swaying back and forth over Face Chutes.



Thank you Dave,
That is what is all about at Jay, interesting Skiing:
inefficient lifts
frigid weather
scary lift rides
storms that dump insane snow
west bowl
kick ass stoke

Eb-5 soon in the rear view mirror
NEK rules


----------



## 56fish (Aug 27, 2016)

What LBDR said.....+1


----------



## dlague (Aug 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Thank you Dave,
> That is what is all about at Jay, interesting Skiing:
> inefficient lifts
> frigid weather
> ...



Yup grew up skiing Jay Peak - even worked their as part of the snowmaking crew for season.  The first 3 time I took my wife there the Jay Cloud was in full force and she hated it.  There was the full on blizzard, then a freezing drizzle day and the other was really windy.  Gotta love it!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> *As far as a gondola, good luck.   You should ride the tram with 60 people when the wind is cranking holy shi11.
> Would not want to try that with a 6-8  passenger box,* it would be on wind hold more than the tram.



As has been said before, the gondola would not go to the very top for this very reason.  The "Gondolo + 2 seater combo" takes much of the wind hold problem you speak off entirely off the table.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 28, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> As has been said before, the gondola would not go to the very top for this very reason.  The "Gondolo + 2 seater combo" takes much of the wind hold problem you speak off entirely off the table.



I guess don't see how reinstalling a double chair would solve any problem.
The wind is still there and riding an exposed lift up that face would be hell.
The skyline was in operation for only a couple of seasons before it was removed.
I've seen pictures of the skyline with  Mt Washington levels of rime on it.
Looks pretty sketchy IMO.
There is a local guy Bob Soden who is the unofficial Jay historian.
Anyhow, hopefully I'll run into him and ask about that time and get a feel for what went on.
There was a lot of change at Jay during that period, Weyerhauser bought the mountain and Walter Foeger left soon after.
In any event, I think the tram and its upgrade is a "fait accompli" unless really deep pockets buy the resort soon.

Cheers and start waxing!


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 29, 2016)

Drip drip drip, the torture continues

Have we hit bottom yet?

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/29/eb-5-investor-says-jay-peak-developers-double-sold-hotel-jay/


----------



## Tin (Aug 29, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Drip drip drip, the torture continues
> 
> Have we hit bottom yet?
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/29/eb-5-investor-says-jay-peak-developers-double-sold-hotel-jay/



Not even close. I like the term "systematic looting", well put.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 29, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I guess don't see how reinstalling a double chair would solve any problem.
> The wind is still there and riding an exposed lift up that face would be hell.
> The skyline was in operation for only a couple of seasons before it was removed.
> I've seen pictures of the skyline with  Mt Washington levels of rime on it.
> ...



The reason the double would help is that the other lift put in be it a gondola, quad or what ever would service almost all other trails except the few coming off the top (face chutes etc.)


----------



## bdfreetuna (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm not seeing where this not-quite-top gondola would land. The terrain sort of prevents it from going anywhere but the absolute top, unless you want to mess up Tuckerman's chutes. Even then it wouldn't access Vermonter.

Having it go less than fully to the top on the other side is even less possible.

Seems like the Flyer goes as high up as you can with the most access to trails without going all the way.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Aug 29, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Seems like the Flyer goes as high up as you can with the most access to trails without going all the way.



Exactly. The Flyer already serves all of the terrain below the summit. A gondola terminating below the summit (i.e. bottom of Face Chutes) would be redundant and screw up the chute.

The Tram is staying where it is. Get used to it.


----------



## doublediamond (Aug 29, 2016)

From what I can tell with old trail maps, there was nothing at Tramside until the tram was built.  You'd get to the summit via the old Bonny Double, ski down a little, then the Skyline Double.  You can kinda see the old lift line from the 3rd to last tower.  It started about there.

Vermonter would be accessible because the old Skyline Double terminated at the summit right next to the Tram.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> There is a local guy Bob Soden who is the unofficial Jay historian.
> Anyhow, hopefully I'll run into him and ask about that time and get a feel for what went on.



That would be cool.   My WAG is that it was done largely for marketing purposes and the Europhilic ski tastes of the time.



Smellytele said:


> The reason the double would help is that the other lift put in be it a gondola, quad or what ever would service almost all other trails except the few coming off the top (face chutes etc.)



Exactly.  

I'd say you'd likely see a fairly large reduction in traffic on Northway and Vermonter alleviating the scratched off iceway conditions, and a slight increase to unmarked stuff and Green Beret and Valhalla etc..., which can certainly handle a few more visits without hurting conditions.   

It's not going to happen now due to financial reasons, but the entire summit would ski better.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2016)

> According to the investor and the Digger review,* the developers  apparently used the money raised from the second group to pay for cost  overruns in the project financed by the first group* of investors — *in  particular, the signature water park that went way over budget. *



So an initial Ponzi scheme fueled a second Ponzi scheme?

I'm not sure I've ever seen that done before.  Impressive.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2016)

> Stenger  and Quiros told investors they were building 46,000 square feet for the  Penthouse Suites project and 250,000 square feet for Hotel Jay.State  permits, however, show the total square footage of the five-story Hotel  Jay, including the fifth floor Penthouse Suites, is 258,300, according  to Kirsten Sultan, the Act 250 district commissioner for the Northeast  Kingdom.
> *No one has explained the missing 37,700 square feet*. Stenger denies any wrongdoing.



I'm gonna' go with, _"really, really, really, really large outdoor patio"_ for my answer.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> So an initial Ponzi scheme fueled a second Ponzi scheme?
> 
> I'm not sure I've ever seen that done before.  Impressive.




This is amazing isn't it, the onion keeps on peeling

What's next? extraterrestrials living under the waterpark

Nothing is off the table at this point  WTF


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Aug 29, 2016)

Sutton said state officials’ unwillingness to investigate was part of  a pattern. Moulton and Raymond did not respond to earlier complaints by  investors in the Tram Haus project at Jay Peak about the developers’  conversion of their ownership stakes into loans.
*“The state had  missed that 45 suites never got built?”* Sutton said.* “I can sort of  understand why the state doesn’t want to look into it because it  completely exposes them to being utterly negligent.”*


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2016)

> *Brent Raymond*, who was director of the EB-5 center at the time, and Pat  Moulton, the outgoing secretary of the Agency of Commerce and Community  Development, which oversees the program in Vermont, *did not respond to  investor complaints about Penthouse*



I realize I've been saying this for literally (not figuratively) years now, but *is SOMEONE....ANYONE.... ever going to investigate Brent Raymond?*

I had suspicions about what I financially felt was "odd" behaviour here long before it was known this was all a scam, and this dude should be a key cog to look at, yet nobody ever seems to do so. 

  It just gets mentioned he used to lead the EB-5 center and now works for Mount Snow.....nothing to see here, move along.    I'd be all up in his bank accounts, his wife & childrens bank accounts, his distant cousin's once-removed bank accounts, credit card records, ACH transfers, email records, credit history, and ANY interaction he's had with a one, Mr. Ariel Quiros, etc....

As I've said before, at best he's completely financially incompetent.........at.......best.  

At worst?


----------



## River19 (Aug 29, 2016)

BG, completely agree with you.

And toss in there the question of when can we all move on from Stenger still being involved in the operations at Jay and Burke?  Can we take away the condo, the salary and the Audi now?  I understand he is a likeable guy but his willing paw prints are all over this whole boondoggle. 

Heck Davis' quotes on how Bill approached him and drove the whole "fifth floor build out" is shady as a grove of fir trees.  I'll tell you what.....if that whole Penthouse Suites thing turns out to be another "exaggeration, fraud etc." designed to fleece EB-5 $ from folks to fund their mismanaged and fraudulent mess can we then move him fully into the "completely dirty" bucket with the Q family?  And remove him from his current role?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 29, 2016)

Alright - I'm a little confused here. I just read the POM for the Hotel Jay and it does not say they are going to build a 250 sf hotel, it says the hotel is going to be approximately 171,000 sf. Doing some simple math, that give us 43,000 sf per floor. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the entire 5th floor cover the 4th floor? If they truly only built 10 penthouse units, they would be 4,300 sf each. I know they have single bedroom penthouse units, and they are no where near 4,600 sf. With that said, what else is occupying the 5th floor? Another thing I noticed is the Hotel POM stated that there would be 121 suites and the Penthouse stated that there would be 55 suites. Hotel Jay does have 176 suites, so the math adds up, just maybe they are all not located on the 5th floor.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I realize I've been saying this for literally (not figuratively) years now, but *is SOMEONE....ANYONE.... ever going to investigate Brent Raymond?*
> 
> I had suspicions about what I financially felt was "odd" behaviour here long before it was known this was all a scam, and this dude should be a key cog to look at, yet nobody ever seems to do so.
> 
> ...



And why does Pat Moulton still have a job?


----------



## doublediamond (Aug 29, 2016)

I think Stenger is dirty.  I also think he may be helping the SEC and/or US Attorneys.  If he is really just an advisor, that's fine as he knows the mountain in and out. If he's really calling all the shots, he shouldn't be. However, even if the latter, the Receiver may not want to fire him in the tiny chance the SEC loses their case as the Receiver may be on the hook for lost wages.  

At a minimum, especially with Jay's cashflow problem, he should not be driving a company Audi fueled with company gas.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 29, 2016)

Quiros is allowed $15,000 a month living expenses from the sale of his NYC condo he purchased with EB-5 money. This is part of the money he's alleged to of outright stole from EB-5 investors.


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## dlague (Aug 30, 2016)

Reading all of this and my firstbthought is "What a friggin' mess!"  I grew up there and it is all sad to see.  Never was a big fan of all the expansion.  Want my old Jay back.


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## LONGBOARDR (Aug 30, 2016)

dlague said:


> Reading all of this and my firstbthought is "What a friggin' mess!"  I grew up there and it is all sad to see.  Never was a big fan of all the expansion.  Want my old Jay back.



+1

Me too.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 30, 2016)

They settled with Citibank for 13.3 million. At least the vendor and subs will get paid now.


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## oldtimer (Aug 31, 2016)

So, it is your understanding that this $13.3 million is a settlement on the EB-5 fund that is/was for the  Burke Hotel & thus can be used to pay the Burke hotel subs?  or have I missed the point?  thanks-




mbedle said:


> They settled with Citibank for 13.3 million. At least the vendor and subs will get paid now.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 31, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> So, it is your understanding that this $13.3 million is a settlement on the EB-5 fund that is/was for the  Burke Hotel & thus can be used to pay the Burke hotel subs?  or have I missed the point?  thanks-



http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/31/jay-peak-receiver-reaches-13-3m-settlement-citibank/

From this article it would seem at least part of it will be used for paying vendors that did work for Jay and Burke (although maybe not specifically the Burke hotel)...



> Goldberg will establish a claims process for EB-5 investors and other parties, such as the contractors who have not been paid for work performed at Jay Peak and Burke Mountain resort.
> 
> About $10.8 million will be used to make payroll for 500 employees at Jay Peak, pay trade vendors who are owed $5 million in past due accounts, and make necessary repairs (the resort must make $4.9 million in repairs to the aerial tram).


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## mbedle (Sep 1, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> So, it is your understanding that this $13.3 million is a settlement on the EB-5 fund that is/was for the  Burke Hotel & thus can be used to pay the Burke hotel subs?  or have I missed the point?  thanks-



His court order specifically states that this money will be used for that purpose. Below is a direct quote from the receiver.

I will request authorization from the Court to use a portion of the settlement proceeds to do the following: (i) subsidize operations at the Jay Peak Resort and the newly opened Burke Hotel until such time as they can be sold; (ii) pay a portion of the claims owed to contractors who are owed money for work performed in connection with the Burke Hotel; the Stateside project and the AnC Bio project; (iii) pay a portion of the claims of trade vendors who are owed money in connection with goods or services supplied to the Jay Peak Resort and the Burke Hotel; (iv) pay my invoices and my professionals for work done during the course of the receivership; and (v) set aside a contingency reserve for the operations of Jay Peak Resort and the Burke Hotel.


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 1, 2016)

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/money/2016/09/01/bill-stenger-sec-fraud-case/89739550/


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## River19 (Sep 1, 2016)

Stenger.......well we saw that coming, but it irritates me that he will not be held accountable.

Everyone knows he is guilty and was nipple deep in that fraud.....and if he "truly knew nothing" then he is at the very least monumentally ignorant at historical levels.  Sorry, just calling it like I see it.


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## LONGBOARDR (Sep 1, 2016)

River19 said:


> Stenger.......well we saw that coming, but it irritates me that he will not be held accountable.
> 
> Everyone knows he is guilty and was nipple deep in that fraud.....and if he "truly knew nothing" then he is at the very least monumentally ignorant at historical levels.  Sorry, just calling it like I see it.




River,
Being closer to this debacle than I care to be, you are right on target and quite moderate of your assessment IMO.
+1


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2016)

https://vtdigger.org/2016/09/01/stenger-settles-sec/


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Sep 1, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> River,
> Being closer to this debacle than I care to be, you are right on target and quite moderate of your assessment IMO.
> +1



No doubt.  That is the kindergarten safe version of what is in my head.

Is no one accountable for their actions anymore?  I'm beside myself.  I would have thought some of the other folks involved but on the periphery would have skated like this in exchange for testimony but not uncle Billy.......he's dirtier than subway floor.


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## doublediamond (Sep 1, 2016)

Why the F would anyone in their right mind secure a $15M personal line of credit with $17M in cash?


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2016)

*Unreleased photo of Bill Stenger meeting with the SEC.*


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## River19 (Sep 2, 2016)

The only positive outcome or upside to letting Dirty Billy off the hook here is if he is indeed singing like BG suggests above ^.

It would be easier to swallow if he indeed provides the information and testimony to put the Q's behind bars where they belong and possibly take a few others along with them......like all the folks at "Northeast Contract Services".....oh yeah there was only one "folk" at NCS and he was Q's long time friend and the company was founded to just skim money off the EB-5 streams.......


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2016)

Funny how Stenger got a deal in exchange for cooperation.  I thought that he had absolutely no idea that anything improper was happening.  At least that's what he expected the public to believe.  I'm shocked I tell you!


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## Tin (Sep 2, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> *Unreleased photo of Bill Stenger meeting with the SEC.*




Yup. Saving himself?


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## chrisinvermont (Sep 2, 2016)

FYI-Stenger only settled the civil claim from the SEC. He can still face criminal charges. Let's hope that's what plays out. Although I bet he sings there as well and leaves Q hanging as part of a plea bargain.


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## River19 (Sep 2, 2016)

chrisinvermont said:


> FYI-Stenger only settled the civil claim from the SEC. He can still face criminal charges. Let's hope that's what plays out. Although I bet he sings there as well and leaves Q hanging as part of a plea bargain.



Solid point right there.

I forgot the SEC piece was only the Civil portion.

It will be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out.

Way too much has happened for someone to not go to jail.

It reminds me of the scene from National Treasure at the end....."you know someone has to go to jail".....


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## doublediamond (Sep 2, 2016)

Called it:

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=475

Stenger settles and is cooperating with SEC against Q


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

Some other news:  

Jerry Davis knows he is in trouble:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/01/burke-contractor-hires-criminal-defense-securities-lawyers/

Mr. Kelly was paid $7.9 million for his "construction supervision" services:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/01/quiros-associate-paid-7-9m-supervisory-services-anc-bio-vermont/

And the State is being hush regarding USCIS scrutiny:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/31/shumlin-administration-denies-public-records-request/

This is the face of transparent, accountable state government:


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## River19 (Sep 2, 2016)

TB - I'm still on the fence with Davis as to really what his role if any in the fraud was.  I'm not saying there isn't something there, I'm just less confident in saying what it is.  

Kelly, that dude is tits deep in this thing just like Stenger.  At least with Dirty Billy S.  I can believe his heart was somewhat in the right place as he had ties to the Mountain etc. but Dirty Billy K.......that dude was in things for the $7.9M or at least his cut of the $7.9M.  And let's not forget his wife and her "design" firm got at least $150K for the "design of the lobby area".....which in the Burke hotel is standard fare, so standard that a picture of a Hawthorne Inn with a post it of "built it like this"....could have produced the same thing from a "design" standpoint.

The state?  don't get me started, but are we surprised?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> TB - I'm still on the fence with Davis as to really what his role if any in the fraud was.  I'm not saying there isn't something there, I'm just less confident in saying what it is.



Yeah, I don't know what he knows or what his role was.  We will find out.  May have been nothing.  



> Kelly, that dude is tits deep in this thing just like Stenger.  At least with Dirty Billy S.  I can believe his heart was somewhat in the right place as he had ties to the Mountain etc. but Dirty Billy K.......that dude was in things for the $7.9M or at least his cut of the $7.9M.  And let's not forget his wife and her "design" firm got at least $150K for the "design of the lobby area".....which in the Burke hotel is standard fare, so standard that a picture of a Hawthorne Inn with a post it of "built it like this"....could have produced the same thing from a "design" standpoint.



Lots of folks just did not get a good vibe with Kelly at all.  He was Q's right hand man and certainly seemed to be playing a game.



> The state?  don't get me started, but are we surprised?



Very sad actually.  Very disappointed.  We will see what happens here as well.


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## oldtimer (Sep 2, 2016)

If you like skiing in the NEK, don't be too hard on Bill Stenger.

I suspect that he was bambozzled by Q-Sr.   Do I think he was smart enough to know that things were shady a couple of years in?  Yes.  But if you have ever been in a compromised position like this, you know well that doing the "right Thing" is impossible.  Right for whom?  His constituencies were his employees, his customers, his family & the Eb-5 investors.  Once you understand that Q is stealing, ANY solution hurts one or more of your constituencies.  

There seems to be no evidence that Stenger took any EB-5 money home.  In fact, it seems that Q ripped Stenger off w/r/t his promised Jay Peak ownership stake.

I know that NO ONE worked harder last winter to get a decent skiing product at Jay and Burke last winter.  I spent a bunch of time at both mountains last winter.  Bill Stenger was everywhere, at all hours at Jay to try and get as good product as possible.  At Burke, I was told by very, very reliable sources that Bill Stenger had to ride Q-Jr extremely hard to get him to open when they did and to keep making snow after it became clear that the season was a train wreck.  Bill Stenger personally convinced much of the key staff to hold on at Burke.  In the fall and earlky winter we saw a lot of him in East Burke.  ALL THIS while he knew the Feds were closing in on he and Q.

As far as we know, none of the funny business was for his own profit.  Going into it, I think he did what he thought would make the NEK a more livable place.  There are not too many we can say that about.  Many, many have shuttered industries -- cut and run.  Is it better to try something and get in over your head or cut and run?

I know-  you hard liners feel like we should lynch the whole crew.  I for one am glad that neither Jay Peak nor Burke is in the Saddleback situation.  For better or for worse, Bill Stenger's tenacity has helped keep them alive.  Burke w/o the hotel is not much of an asset.  

YUP--  He and Q have destroyed downtown Newport & I suspect ruined some hapless EB-5 investor portfolios.  I do not think Bill Stenger intended or envisioned how wrong this could go.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> If you like skiing in the NEK, don't be too hard on Bill Stenger.
> 
> I suspect that he was bambozzled by Q-Sr.   Do I think he was smart enough to know that things were shady a couple of years in?  Yes.  But* if you have ever been in a compromised position like this, you know well that doing the "right Thing" is impossible.*  Right for whom?  His constituencies were his employees, his customers, his family & the Eb-5 investors.  Once you understand that Q is stealing, ANY solution hurts one or more of your constituencies.



Total BS, to the point of almost being difficult to read.

I sure hope you dont teach "Ethics" classes at a college or B-school.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> If you like skiing in the NEK, don't be too hard on Bill Stenger.
> 
> I suspect that he was bambozzled by Q-Sr.   Do I think he was smart enough to know that things were shady a couple of years in?  Yes.  But if you have ever been in a compromised position like this, you know well that doing the "right Thing" is impossible.  Right for whom?  His constituencies were his employees, his customers, his family & the Eb-5 investors.  Once you understand that Q is stealing, ANY solution hurts one or more of your constituencies.
> 
> ...



I will confess that I, too, hope that Stenger indeed was misled by Q.  This is *not the first time in Vermont that an actor in a Ponzi scheme claims he did not know what was going on*.

Unfortunately, Vermont has a very bad track record when it comes to people getting scammed by others, with folks embezzling money, and with folks committing fraud.  I've mentioned this before.  Folks are either very trusting or we just have a lot of scammers or both.

Ironically enough Utah also has a very bad track record--mainly because of people being very trusting and very ambitious folks with good intentions getting in over their heads.

A part of me believes that Stenger just got in over his head here.  He has been at Jay since 1984 or so and has always had to survive somehow.


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## River19 (Sep 2, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> If you like skiing in the NEK, don't be too hard on Bill Stenger.
> 
> I suspect that he was bambozzled by Q-Sr.   Do I think he was smart enough to know that things were shady a couple of years in?  Yes.  But if you have ever been in a compromised position like this, you know well that doing the "right Thing" is impossible.  Right for whom?  His constituencies were his employees, his customers, his family & the Eb-5 investors.  Once you understand that Q is stealing, ANY solution hurts one or more of your constituencies.
> 
> ...



I understand the empathetic line of thinking, but on the flip side of that is when you are in charge of a business and you do have those constituents to think about, staying on the straight and narrow right from the start is the only path that doesn't put you in a compromised position in the first place.

I agree that Stenger wanted what was best for the NEK, as I stated I think his heart was many times in the right place.

BUT.......from day one......when he broke his fiduciary responsibility to his investors in the EB-5 program by providing the Qs with the funds and wiring them out of People's to the brokerage firm he sold his soul.  He was the key initial enabler to allow Q to begin his process of laundering funds.  Bill was the one that dropped the ball into Q's twisted pinball machine of companies.  He knew it was wrong on day 1 as I know he is not a stupid man.

If he didn't make those initial misappropriations with the accounts at People's, Q would never have been able to buy Jay with EB-5 money as we all know now he couldn't afford it without the funds.  sure there is a chance Q would have screwed someone else to come up with funds but this one is also on Bill.

I think it is a shame, regardless of where Bill's heart is, he sold his soul to the Florida devil; at some point he needs to be held responsible for his actions.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

River19 said:


> I understand the empathetic line of thinking, but on the flip side of that is when you are in charge of a business and you do have those constituents to think about, staying on the straight and narrow right from the start is the only path that doesn't put you in a compromised position in the first place.
> 
> I agree that Stenger wanted what was best for the NEK, as I stated I think his heart was many times in the right place.
> 
> ...



This is very true.  The same was said about Mac Parker about "enabling" the scam.


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## Rikka (Sep 2, 2016)

Says Bill is gone.

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/02/jay-peak-receiver-says-stenger-no-longer-working-resort/


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## River19 (Sep 2, 2016)

Rikka said:


> Says Bill is gone.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/02/jay-peak-receiver-says-stenger-no-longer-working-resort/



About time.

Sad, but he needed to go, way too much baggage.

That being said, I think one can potentially interpret his actions since the Feds took action as wanting to act in the best interest of what was left of the resorts........sort of his swan song.  For that I tip a glass, but a small glass as overall he screwed too many good folks.


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## LONGBOARDR (Sep 2, 2016)

Rikka said:


> Says Bill is gone.
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/02/jay-peak-receiver-says-stenger-no-longer-working-resort/



I was going to reply to an earlier response to OT that Bill was living inside a gilded cage (Jaypeak) of his own creation.
Now he does not even have  that. 
For Bill, this is the most severe sentence he could have been handed.
Many won't understand this but it is the case IMO. Karma with a capital K.
I question his actions, reasoning and motivation through all of this, but not his love for Jay Peak.

I knew the old Bill in the ratty fur coat with the viking horns, it was good times at the  mtn (1990).
Jay never needed to chase customers, we have the goods, lots of natural snow and ass kicking  terrain
Why does everything have to get so fucked up and change for the worse?
Lets try leaving shit alone   like The Golden Eagle

Sorry for the rant

Longboardr


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

Being let go from Jay is the worst punishment I could think of for Bill. That was his life. He must be going through hell. 

Wonder if that was part of the plea deal.

Think he sells his house and leaves?

I didn't see this one coming.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## kingdom-tele (Sep 3, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> If you like skiing in the NEK, don't be too hard on Bill Stenger.
> 
> I suspect that he was bambozzled by Q-Sr.   Do I think he was smart enough to know that things were shady a couple of years in?  Yes.  But if you have ever been in a compromised position like this, you know well that doing the "right Thing" is impossible.  Right for whom?  His constituencies were his employees, his customers, his family & the Eb-5 investors.  Once you understand that Q is stealing, ANY solution hurts one or more of your constituencies.
> 
> ...




He worked hard to cover his own ass, knowing full well what was going on.  Lets not associate his desire for success on his altruism when it was driven by another motivating factor.  

I find it remarkable that a person with such high hopes and dedication to developing the future success of a community could not contemplate how it could go wrong, that it  was never allowed in to their internal conversation. Given the evolution of the situation and the scrambling to patch the holes, it seems inconceivable such a brilliant mind couldn't tell. 

More things should fail.  This idea that success is the only option and based on the measure of money is corrosive. I can't imagine an ideal further from the NEK than that.


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## Tin (Sep 3, 2016)

He was either toO dumb to know what was going on or he was in on it, either way he shouldn't be there...

NSFW


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## Tin (Sep 5, 2016)

_Meanwhile, Stenger's co-defendant, Ariel Quiros, has an attorney's bill worth more than $600,000 according to SEC documents. He wants the feds to free up his assets to pay for those attorney fees, and his legal team says he has an offer in writing from an unknown buyer to purchase Jay Peak Incorporated for $93 million._-WCAX

Calls up a friend to buy the place, he then becomes "instrumental" in the sale and getting investors their money back. Feds take it eas(ier) on him?


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 5, 2016)

Tin said:


> _Meanwhile, Stenger's co-defendant, Ariel Quiros, has an attorney's bill worth more than $600,000 according to SEC documents. He wants the feds to free up his assets to pay for those attorney fees, and his legal team says he has an offer in writing from an unknown buyer to purchase Jay Peak Incorporated for $93 million._-WCAX
> 
> Calls up a friend to buy the place, he then becomes "instrumental" in the sale and getting investors their money back. Feds take it eas(ier) on him?


Goldberg already turned down the $93M offer http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/23/receiver-rebuffs-93-million-offer-jay-peak/. The court is allowing Quiros to use money from the sale of his NYC condo for living expenses ($15,000 a month from what I've read) http://www.law360.com/articles/801367/jay-peak-owner-can-sell-swanky-condo-to-pay-attys-fees. I don't understand this ruling since he allegedly bought the condo with money he outright stole from investors. I also don't know if his condo has been sold yet.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2016)

http://digital.vpr.net/post/meet-lo...&mc_cid=15ec850d64&mc_eid=62e7045b13#stream/0


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 7, 2016)

> In *Summer 2014, the investors retained a forensic accountant to inspect  the Tram Haus financial records.* That effort was blocked as well, he  says, when *Stenger insisted that the accountant sign a non-disclosure  agreement* before accessing the documents.



That ties up one of the loose-ends for me. 

 I always wondered why (and commented here a bunch of times how I thought it odd) we never heard a peep from the results of the accounting endeavor, now I know why.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 7, 2016)

> In November 2014, *Sutton detailed his concerns in correspondence to  state officials — who, because of their limited oversight, at the time  didn’t even have access to the same documentation Sutton used. *



AMAZING!!!!!!

And it's not like Sutton had much info to begin with!  

Where are the posters who vigorously defended State of Vermont over the years?  They remain mysteriously absent.   

*Vermont basically set-up a "financial office" like the mafia sets-up a "pizza parlor"* - complete smoke & mirrors and simply used to facilitate incoming streams of large sums of money.  Actually at least the pizza parlor _does _in fact make some pizzas, so technically the mob's fake Italian restaurant is slightly more on the up-and-up than Vermont.  

This truly begs the question, WHAT DID ALL THESE STATE EB-5 CENTER EMPLOYEES DO to earn their taxpayer paid salary for several years?  Sadly, I doubt anyone is investigating that story either.


----------



## River19 (Sep 7, 2016)

BG, those are the real questions and the next axe to fall as we all hope it will.

I would like to think the state will eventually be held accountable but then again I thought Stenger, who is tits deep in this thing, would also be held accountable for his actions.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> AMAZING!!!!!!
> 
> And it's not like Sutton had much info to begin with!
> 
> ...



They only promoted the projects with the "promise" of oversight....which apparently was "boy, that building sure does look pretty."  :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2016)

And....wait for it....the Receiver says Stenger was duped: http://www.wcax.com/story/33052304/...esident-duped-by-quiros#.V9Hf4gRbpzA.facebook


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And....wait for it....t*he Receiver says Stenger was duped*



So the guy who's really close with all the politicians is going to get off completely?  

How positively non-shocking.


----------



## River19 (Sep 9, 2016)

So they really are going with the "Stenger is just monumentally stupid of historical proportions" defense?

Embarrassing


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> So the guy who's really close with all the politicians is going to get off completely?
> 
> How positively non-shocking.



That way the politicians don't seem like they were "monumentally stupid of historical proportions"


----------



## JimG. (Sep 9, 2016)

Wow. 

Almost makes me not want to ski in VT anymore.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2016)

River19 said:


> So* they really are going with the "Stenger is just monumentally stupid of historical proportions" defense?*
> 
> Embarrassing



Yup.

It's all very tidy.


----------



## River19 (Sep 9, 2016)

I could see it now......Shummy, et al sitting around trying to figure out the official spin and how to put some distance between his administration and the fraudsters.....


"Well, Bill is the one who has all the political ties to us and Bernie etc. and he is the savior of the NEK as we have marketed him, he's the one we can't really separate our history with since the ties run too deep."

"Yes, but what if we begin laying the foundation for the fact that Bill Stenger is just one of the biggest dumbasses to ever learn to use a spoon?"

"Well, in order for people to buy that he would honestly have to struggle to use a spoon to be dumb enough to not know what was going on."

"Any other ideas?"

Silence.

"OK, from now on Quiros, despite his rambling barely coherent testimony needs to be promoted as the cunning mastermind with a keen mind for high finance.  And Bill, well, Bill will just have to go down in history as a monumentally ignorant man who just loved the NEK so much it blinded him."

"call WCAX......"


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Wow.
> 
> Almost makes me not want to ski in VT anymore.



What about INVESTING in Vermont or a Vermont business?  That's what the administration FAILS to understand.


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> What about INVESTING in Vermont or a Vermont business?  That's what the administration FAILS to understand.



All part of my attitude towards coddling frauds who steal honest investors' money.

I have been considering places to buy a second home/vacation home/retirement home. Vermont was on top of my list. But between this fiasco and finding out that VT charges very high property and school taxes on second homes, I'm looking else where.

So you are correct, investment in VT will suffer greatly. The only vote that counts in this country is the vote you make with your dollars.


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2016)

JimG. said:


> I have been considering places to buy a second home/vacation home/retirement home. Vermont was on top of my list. But between this fiasco and finding out that VT charges very high property and school taxes on second homes, I'm looking else where.



I do agree that it is a bit ridiculous that non-residents pay a higher school tax than residents. We're not using the schools...yet can't do anything about it because we don't vote in VT! Maybe this is common practice in other states too though...I only have experience as a non-resident property owner in VT.


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2016)

cdskier said:


> I do agree that it is a bit ridiculous that non-residents pay a higher school tax than residents. We're not using the schools...yet can't do anything about it because we don't vote in VT! Maybe this is common practice in other states too though...I only have experience as a non-resident property owner in VT.



I admit I don't know about other states, but I think the tax laws regarding paying high school taxes on second/vacation homes is unique to VT at least in the NE.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2016)

On the one hand it sucks second home owners get stiffed with higher tax bills. My folks experienced this as second home owners in VT for 15 years and saw the initial big hikes when controversial Act 60 was first passed.

On the other hand, VT typically ranks as having one of the best state education systems in the country, which is tough to do with such little commercial activity / tax revenue to support it. 

So, I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand it's commendable that they place such a high value on having great schools state wide.  On the other hand their approach in achieving those goals is a little unjust.


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## LONGBOARDR (Sep 10, 2016)

JimG. said:


> I admit I don't know about other states, but I think the tax laws regarding paying high school taxes on second/vacation homes is unique to VT at least in the NE.



the problem IMO is not so much the homestead vs the non resident tax rate.
it is really the centralization of the education tax, state wide vs local levies.
this year the ed tax is largely unchanged due to the upcoming election for governor.
Take home message is don't buy in VT, find a town in NH whwere local taxes are not influenced to a large extent by local ed taxes. good luck 
BTW I'm not a native vermonter, but its the ones who come here either for school or afterwards   want to build their version of  a potemkin village beyond Burlington.

e.g, shap smith , sue Minter, dave Zuckerman, kesha Ram and so on


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## 56fish (Sep 11, 2016)

JimG. said:


> All part of my attitude towards coddling frauds who steal honest investors' money.
> 
> I have been considering places to buy a second home/vacation home/retirement home. Vermont was on top of my list. But between this fiasco and finding out that VT charges very high property and school taxes on second homes, I'm looking else where.
> 
> So you are correct, investment in VT will suffer greatly. The only vote that counts in this country is the vote you make with your dollars.



Non-residential tax rates are fixed. Not necessarily higher than residential.
Final Education tax rates are set by the town, mine below:
Town                      Homestead             Nonresidential
Westfield                 1.5636                    1.5338


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2016)

56fish said:


> Non-residential tax rates are fixed. Not necessarily higher than residential.
> Final Education tax rates are set by the town, mine below:
> Town                      Homestead             Nonresidential
> Westfield                 1.5636                    1.5338



Thanks all for additional info, it is appreciated.

First, let me say I have no issue paying town and school taxes for my primary residence wherever that may be. My 3 sons have/are received/getting an excellent education at our public high school here (Arlington CSD in my case). I would not consider sending them to any other school system I have been so pleased. That includes any private/prep school.

But because of Act 60, I cannot consider VT as a second home location. And I have read nothing in these helpful responses that would make me feel otherwise. 

If we decide to sell our NY home that would change my opinion, but as of today my home is pretty much paid off and we would like to keep the property for our sons if one of them decides to live in NY. As unlikely as that seems now, who knows. 

One thought is to set up an irrevocable trust and to put the property in their name. That is the only way I can see to justify going to VT but then the issue of NY property taxes becomes my sons' issue and I don't want to burden them with that unless one of them actually lives here.

I know, serious first world issues.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2016)

Taxes are bad almost anywhere in the northeast.  Like JimG with New York, I love New Jersey, but I'm looking to "flee" New Jersey because of this as well.  The financial impairment from paying ~$12,000/year property taxes on a modest home, every year, over your life, equates to an absolutely staggering financial impairment, and if the average person knew how to use Excel and would realize this, there would be an absolute voting revolt.


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## yeggous (Sep 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Taxes are bad almost anywhere in the northeast.  Like JimG with New York, I love New Jersey, but I'm looking to "flee" New Jersey because of this as well.  The financial impairment from paying ~$12,000/year property taxes on a modest home, every year, over your life, equates to an absolutely staggering financial impairment, and if the average person knew how to use Excel and would realize this, there would be an absolute voting revolt.



Here in Massachusetts I do not even understand this discussion. We have no such thing as school taxes. There is but one residential tax rate per town which quietly bakes in everything. And crazy high real estates taxes do not included the entire northeast. Massachusetts and Maine have middle-of-the-road property tax rates.
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/how-high-are-property-taxes-your-state

And New Hampshire's high property tax is offset by the zero income and sales tax. The net result is one of the lowest effective tax rates as long as you don't work out of state, which 17% of the state does. Those people pay high property taxes and income taxes... double whammy.


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## Harvey (Sep 11, 2016)

We pay school tax on our 2nd property in NY (Adirondacks).

Our building is classified as a seasonal residence, meaning it's acknowledged that we would not have children in school.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2016)

yeggous said:


> *Here in Massachusetts I do not even understand this discussion.* We have no such thing as school taxes. There is but one residential tax rate per town which quietly bakes in everything. And crazy high real estates taxes do not included the entire northeast. Massachusetts and Maine have middle-of-the-road property tax rates.
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/how-high-are-property-taxes-your-state



Massachusetts is #18 on your list (which is from a very good source), which means only 34% of America is worse than MA in that regard.  That's not very good.


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2016)

I don't mind paying property and school taxes (whether it is broken down as 2 taxes or just rolled into one). I believe in public education and I'm paying it for my children. And in my experience having 3 children in school, higher school taxes mean better schools. We moved from Putnam County where school taxes were lower but the schools sucked to Dutchess County where taxes are higher and so is the quality of public education. No such thing as a free lunch and I can't think of a better way to spend money.

I also don't mind continuing to pay after all my kids graduate. That's my investment in the future and in future generations. 

But I'm not going to pay twice, especially to a place where my kids never lived or went to school. Frankly, I'm not thrilled with any of the tax options anywhere in NY, VT, or NH. Not interested in moving to ME. 

I once kind of joked about getting a place near Montreal. Not joking anymore, that's going to be my next research project.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 11, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Here in Massachusetts I do not even understand this discussion. We have no such thing as school taxes. There is but one residential tax rate per town which quietly bakes in everything. And crazy high real estates taxes do not included the entire northeast. Massachusetts and Maine have middle-of-the-road property tax rates.
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/how-high-are-property-taxes-your-state
> 
> And New Hampshire's high property tax is offset by the zero income and sales tax. The net result is one of the lowest effective tax rates as long as you don't work out of state, which 17% of the state does. Those people pay high property taxes and income taxes... double whammy.



I wouldn't call all of Maine "middle of the road". The mill rate in this town was 27 last year. :angry:


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2016)

56fish said:


> Non-residential tax rates are fixed. Not necessarily higher than residential.
> Final Education tax rates are set by the town, mine below:
> Town                      Homestead             Nonresidential
> Westfield                 1.5636                    1.5338



Apparently I haven't compared the rates in my town the past couple years. Non-residents now pay ever so slightly less in school taxes than residents (and did last year as well). In the 3 years prior to this year and last year, nonresidents paid a higher rate than residents. If I'm reading the VT Tax website correctly, any towns that spend more per pupil than some magical number will end up with nonresident rates lower than resident rates.


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## yeggous (Sep 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Massachusetts is #18 on your list (which is from a very good source), which means only 34% of America is worse than MA in that regard.  That's not very good.



That is within the middle two quartiles, and within one standard deviation of the mean. Not everything has to be one extreme or the other.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2016)

JimG. said:


> I once kind of joked about getting a place near Montreal. Not joking anymore, that's going to be my next research project.



What about a place near Mont Sutton?  Probably cheap real estate I bet, and it's only 40 minutes to Jay Peak, 1 hour to Smuggs, etc...


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## dlague (Sep 11, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Here in Massachusetts I do not even understand this discussion. We have no such thing as school taxes. There is but one residential tax rate per town which quietly bakes in everything. And crazy high real estates taxes do not included the entire northeast. Massachusetts and Maine have middle-of-the-road property tax rates.
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/how-high-are-property-taxes-your-state
> 
> And New Hampshire's high property tax is offset by the zero income and sales tax. The net result is one of the lowest effective tax rates as long as you don't work out of state, which 17% of the state does. Those people pay high property taxes and income taxes... double whammy.



Good point about NH.  Used to live there and worked in MA so I had that double hit.  Got smart and found a job in state with an increase and it was like doubled due to no income taxes.

Here in CO every one talks about low property tax rates but we have sales and income taxes and in some towns even local sales taxes as well.  I would be curious what the overall tax rate is across each state.


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> What about a place near Mont Sutton?  Probably cheap real estate I bet, and it's only 40 minutes to Jay Peak, 1 hour to Smuggs, etc...



Sounds like a good place to start. Also closer to skiing at other mountains in Quebec than VT.

And I believe my wife would prefer living close to a nice city like Montreal.


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## LONGBOARDR (Sep 11, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Sounds like a good place to start. Also closer to skiing at other mountains in Quebec than VT.
> 
> And I believe my wife would prefer living close to a nice city like Montreal.



I believe if you retain US citizenship you must file US income tax in addition to Canada.

Also Canada has a federal VAT and possible provincial taxes.


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I believe if you retain US citizenship you must file US income tax in addition to Canada.
> 
> Also Canada has a federal VAT and possible provincial taxes.



I need to look into all of the tax consequences; renouncing US citizenship is expensive as the US is one of only two countries in the world (the other is Eritrea) that charges an exit tax which in the US is a minimum of 10% of world wide assets.

It is probably cheaper to pay the extra taxes because with tax credits the hit is not that bad. I am already semi-retired so I don't think income taxes are going to be a big issue for me anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

You can't just move to Canada and become a permanent resident if you want to.   You would likely just be owning a vacation home, so property tax would be your only obligation and you'd be limited on the number of days you could spend there a year. So, this doesn't really help you avoid the situation of paying for two school systems. Not sure if PQ dings second home owners higher like some communities in VT does.

To go permanently there are basically two paths.  You demonstrate you have a high demand job skill and apply for permanent residency to work there (usually requires a Canadian employer sponsorship) or if you are a high worth individual you can apply for residency through investment Visa. So, they have their own EB5 program :lol: though my understanding is the investment is guaranteed by the PQ government.

The US and Canada have tax treaties, so you don't get double whacked for dual citizenship.


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## oldtimer (Sep 12, 2016)

Don't forget that the border crossing to Jay becomes tedious if done on a regular basis......



JimG. said:


> I need to look into all of the tax consequences; renouncing US citizenship is expensive as the US is one of only two countries in the world (the other is Eritrea) that charges an exit tax which in the US is a minimum of 10% of world wide assets.
> 
> It is probably cheaper to pay the extra taxes because with tax credits the hit is not that bad. I am already semi-retired so I don't think income taxes are going to be a big issue for me anyway.


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## machski (Sep 12, 2016)

And if you renounce US citizenship and then want it back and get it again, don't leave the country again.  CBP will have a field day with you if you do.


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## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

More good info thanks. 

Somehow, I don't feel as "free" as I did before I started looking into all of this. It seems nothing is "free" and "freedom" is limited which is counter to the definition of that word.


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## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Don't forget that the border crossing to Jay becomes tedious if done on a regular basis......



Never had a problem at the border but you are correct, it would become a hassle if done regularly.

DHS, I had no idea that Canada limits that number of days you can spend there if your property is a second/vacation property. I'm sure that's related to tax avoidance issues.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

It's six months. If you plan on living at your PQ residence more than that per year you need to apply for immigration status


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 12, 2016)

dlague said:


> Here in CO every one talks about low property tax rates but we have sales and income taxes and in some towns even local sales taxes as well.*  I would be curious what the overall tax rate is across each state.*



I think a great way to perceive this is through "Tax Freedom Day", rather than a rate metric.  Tax Freedom Day is the day you stop working to pay the government and get to keep money for yourself and your family. 

The average American worker, has all their paycheck from January 1 to April 24 go to government, afterwards they get to keep money.

5 WORST states in America by Tax Freedom Day

50 - Connecticut (May 21st)
49 - New Jersey (May 12th)
48 - New York (May 11th)
47 - Massachusetts (May 5th)
46 - California (April 30th)


http://taxfoundation.org/article/tax-freedom-day-2016-april-24




oldtimer said:


> Don't forget that* the border crossing to Jay becomes tedious if done on a regular basis.*.....



Disagree.  Locals seem to always skate through lickedy-split.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think a great way to perceive this is through "Tax Freedom Day", rather than a rate metric.  Tax Freedom Day is the day you stop working to pay the government and get to keep money for yourself and your family.
> 
> The average American worker, has all their paycheck from January 1 to April 24 go to government, afterwards they get to keep money.
> 
> ...



Sercasm?

 Under that scenario every contractor in the country would just wait until April 25th to bill for their work.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Sercasm?
> 
> Under that scenario every contractor in the country would just wait until April 25th to bill for their work.



No...it makes perfect sense to me what BG said. If you gave 100% of your money that you earn to the government to cover all of your various taxes for the year, Tax Freedom day is the day you would have finished paying your taxes and now every single cent you earn after that point is your money. It has nothing to do with when people are billed for things. It is simply a calculation based on how much you are expected to earn in a year and what percent of that overall goes towards taxes in a given state. This is simply a different way to represent what you already pay spread out over the course of a year.


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## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It's six months. If you plan on living at your PQ residence more than that per year you need to apply for immigration status



6 months could work for me; not ideal though, I don't want to buy a second home and then be limited to being there only 6 months out of each year.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

cdskier said:


> No...it makes perfect sense to me what BG said. If you gave 100% of your money that you earn to the government to cover all of your various taxes for the year, Tax Freedom day is the day you would have finished paying your taxes and now every single cent you earn after that point is your money. It has nothing to do with when people are billed for things. It is simply a calculation based on how much you are expected to earn in a year and what percent of that overall goes towards taxes in a given state. This is simply a different way to represent what you already pay spread out over the course of a year.



His statement was the average American gives ALL of their pay check for the first four months. 

If it's based off a calendar years
income and you get a refund for what you over pay I could see that working for certain people.

In reality, many Americans have very little in savings and live paycheck to paycheck.  There would be a lot of unintended consequences for such people by switching to this model.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 12, 2016)

It's just a way to illustrate a %. Four months out of 12 = 33.3%.


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## cdskier (Sep 12, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> It's just a way to illustrate a %. Four months out of 12 = 33.3%.



Right. DHS completely missed the point. No one was ever suggesting this be done in reality. It is just a theoretical way to show how much of your money goes to taxes. If someone says 33% of your money goes to taxes, some people may not grasp the concept of how much that truly is. If on the other hand you say that every penny you earn until the end of April goes to the government, now it is much more concrete in being able to visualize this.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> *Sercasm?*  Under that scenario every contractor in the country would just wait until April 25th to bill for their work.



No, you're misunderstanding it.  You can clink on the link for a full explanation.



cdskier said:


> No..*.it makes perfect sense to me what BG said. If you gave 100% of your money that you earn to the government to cover all of your various taxes for the year, Tax Freedom day is the day you would have finished paying your taxes and now every single cent you earn after that point is your money. *It has nothing to do with when people are billed for things. It is simply a calculation based on how much you are expected to earn in a year and what percent of that overall goes towards taxes in a given state. This is simply a different way to represent what you already pay spread out over the course of a year.



 The above is a good explanation of it.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Right. DHS completely missed the point. No one was ever suggesting this be done in reality. It is just a theoretical way to show how much of your money goes to taxes. If someone says 33% of your money goes to taxes, some people may not grasp the concept of how much that truly is. If on the other hand you say that every penny you earn until the end of April goes to the government, now it is much more concrete in being able to visualize this.



I didn't click his link. I assumed it was a proposal he was making on how to change our tax collection practices.  My bad.  

Maybe not by BG, but I've seen some pretty crazy proposals put out there by folks. I just assumed that this was another one of those.


----------



## Jully (Sep 12, 2016)

It is a cool way to visualize tax burden. The only issue with it that I can find, and the article actually says this, is that the state by state breakdown does not adjust for the income of that average individual of that state (at least that I could find) so while Connecticut, MA, NY, and NJ all certainly have high taxes, the average person in all those states definitely earns more than the average person in Alabama, Louisiana, or Mississippi. 

So potentially NH and almost certainly VT should be higher up on the list and closer to MA, NJ, etc as the tax burden per income may be worse.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 12, 2016)

oldtimer said:


> Don't forget that the border crossing to Jay becomes tedious if done on a regular basis......



If you buy in Sutton, that means you cross at Richforf Vt.  95% of the time there won't be any cars in front of you. There are also a couple of additional options where 99% of the time there will be no car (but not open 24hours on the canadian side).  The crossings on the major highways (87, 89, and 91) are where the potential problems reside.

As to owning a house in another country there are usually two things you have to worry about:

- illegal immigation - For US and Canada, it means no more than 182 days in the country over any 365 days continuous period (calendar year does not apply).  

- tax status - this is more complicated and is more stringent than the illegal immigration status and is calculated going back three years.  You can fill out a form for exemption provided that you can show that you have a residence in your country of origin.

While it is true that there is no double taxation, if you violate the tax status in the US, you will be asked to pay taxes immediately to gain entry in the US.  You then have to hire a lawyer to get things settled between both governments.


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## yeggous (Sep 12, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Never had a problem at the border but you are correct, it would become a hassle if done regularly.
> 
> DHS, I had no idea that Canada limits that number of days you can spend there if your property is a second/vacation property. I'm sure that's related to tax avoidance issues.



The only time I went to the Eastern Townships, it was a pain in the ass. Canadian customs pulled me aside and sat me in a chair in their office. After 30 minutes of waiting quietly in the chair they finally came over to ask me 3-5 minutes worth of questions and let me go on my way. After that I swore not take return.


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## fbrissette (Sep 12, 2016)

yeggous said:


> The only time I went to the Eastern Townships, it was a pain in the ass. Canadian customs pulled me aside and sat me in a chair in their office. After 30 minutes of waiting quietly in the chair they finally came over to ask me 3-5 minutes worth of questions and let me go on my way. After that I swore not take return.



If you own a property they treat you differently.  Then  get a Nexus/Global Entry pass, and it gets even easier.

I had the US pullover (30 minutes of waiting in a chair) twice in 6 years (out of about 240 crossings).  The second time, the lady said she was sorry and that I was chosen by the computer for a random check.   You probably got unlucky and got the same treatment.  Or you may simply look like a snowboard druggie .


----------



## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

machski said:


> And if you renounce US citizenship and then want it back and get it again, don't leave the country again.  CBP will have a field day with you if you do.



No way I'll renounce US citizenship; I'm a dual national already (also a Swiss citizen). I wonder if there is a limit to how many passports one person can have.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Take home message is don't buy in VT, find a town in NH whwere local taxes are not influenced to a large extent by local ed taxes. good luck



Looking in the Whites has always been on the list. I've always liked Wildcat and wouldn't mind skiing more at Cannon.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2016)

Both Bartlett on the Wildcat side and Lincoln on the Cannon side have very low property taxes.  The easier access to Northern VT on the Cannon side might be more appealing for you to get to VT areas when they get the snow. Also easier to shoot up to Quebec from there.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Both Bartlett on the Wildcat side and Lincoln on the Cannon side have very low property taxes.  The easier access to Northern VT on the Cannon side might be more appealing for you to get to VT areas when they get the snow. Also easier to shoot up to Quebec from there.



Sounds like good places to look. 

I'm lucky my wife loves the mountains. She has always particularly liked NH and the Whites.


----------



## yeggous (Sep 12, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Sounds like good places to look.
> 
> I'm lucky my wife loves the mountains. She has always particularly liked NH and the Whites.



Smart woman. The Whites dwarf anything else in the Northeast. It is my happy place.

Speaking from experience, the taxes in Bartlett are very low, but the town offers essentially no services. If you call 911 you'll have to wait 45 minutes for the volunteer ambulance. Conway has a more typical tax rate but offers the town services you would expect. Municipal sewer, a functional rec department / parks, three full time fire stations, local school system, etc. You'll save money in Bartlett for sure, but don't expect any services from the town.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Smart woman. The Whites dwarf anything else in the Northeast. It is my happy place.
> 
> Speaking from experience, the taxes in Bartlett are very low, but the town offers essentially no services. If you call 911 you'll have to wait 45 minutes for the volunteer ambulance. Conway has a more typical tax rate but offers the town services you would expect. Municipal sewer, a functional rec department / parks, three full time fire stations, local school system, etc. You'll save money in Bartlett for sure, but don't expect any services from the town.



You speak like a typical person from Mass that comes to live in NH and then wants the services they got while in taxachussetts.


----------



## yeggous (Sep 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> You speak like a typical person from Mass that comes to live in NH and then wants the services they got while in taxachussetts.



You're welcome. Please enjoy all the increased services that we vote in.

My roots in NH are at least as deep as anyone else here, with my family dating back to the earliest settlers in the state. There are multiple towns named after my family. Most of that family left NH during the early 20th century in search of employment.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2016)

yeggous said:


> You're welcome. Please enjoy all the increased services that we vote in.


with big government and increased taxes.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 13, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> with big government and increased taxes.



Are we talking about Canada ???


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 13, 2016)

So back to Jay/Burke.  Next thing to see is if they have a "normal" appearance at the ski shows.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So back to Jay/Burke.  Next thing to see is if they have a "normal" appearance at the ski shows.



Sorry about the hijack...but thanks to all for the excellent intel.


----------



## crank (Sep 13, 2016)

They will.  I went to a ski club travel show in NJ back in May and Jay Peak had a corner booth with at least 3 reps.  I still get emails from one of their reps trying to entice my club to visit Jay peak.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 13, 2016)

I've been getting at least 2 emails a week from Jay myself. They seem to be going out of their way to make sure skiers know they are going to be open for business as usual this season.


----------



## yeggous (Sep 13, 2016)

Our ski league has been trying for weeks to get in touch with Jay to verify our planned trip in December. So far nothing but silence from their end. We put a deposit down last year too.


----------



## River19 (Sep 13, 2016)

I would think Burke would be going in guns blazing to those shows.  Who else can tout a "$55M new hotel".....

They need to drive a bunch of business up and down that hill to maximize the attractiveness to purchasers etc.  Then again, if they pull out all the stops there may not be much "meat on the bone" from a buyer perspective.

Which brings us to the next thing about Burke....and it is the same old same old.....in all the noise......I think I lost sight of their snow-making plans for 2016/17.....did Burke upgrade anything?

Or are we still in the doomed cycle of waiting on Mother Nature to shrug off the new weather patterns and save the mountain again?


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 13, 2016)

I've received occasional emails from Jay. Not every week but several over the course of the summer. Nothing from Burke though.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> I would think Burke would be going in guns blazing to those shows.  Who else can tout a "$55M new hotel".....
> 
> They need to drive a bunch of business up and down that hill to maximize the attractiveness to purchasers etc.  Then again, if they pull out all the stops there may not be much "meat on the bone" from a buyer perspective.
> 
> ...



Way back somewhere this summer, there was some pictures on Facebook of them removing the booster pumps for overhaul, touting they'd be able to push more water up the hill this year. There was also a note somewhere along the line about rental compressors...

I'm sure that will be a hot topic if they have an early season passholders meeting.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 13, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Way back somewhere this summer, there was some pictures on Facebook of them removing the booster pumps for overhaul, touting they'd be able to push more water up the hill this year. There was also a note somewhere along the line about rental compressors...
> 
> I'm sure that will be a hot topic if they have an early season passholders meeting.



There is a meeting tentatively scheduled for the weekend of September 24th....with folks able to watch online or call in.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> There is a meeting tentatively scheduled for the weekend of September 24th....with folks able to watch online or call in.



Hate to be the switchboard operator for all those calls haha!


----------



## River19 (Sep 13, 2016)

That meeting should be interesting.

I think the current team and receiver etc. deserve a ton of credit for getting the hotel opened and operating but I think success of not only the hotel but the whole mountain hinges on the snow making and/or the lack of.

The same core problem exists as it did last year; a great hotel is an empty hotel if there is no reason to be there.

The passholders that populated the slopes during crappy snow conditions last year and every other year did so because many are condo owners or locals.  Condo owners and locals don't fill a hotel.  Filling a hotel is a dog eat dog fight for the same asses as every lift in New England is fighting for......those asses book hotels where the snow conditions are great.

So is revamping the pumps and renting compressors enough?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 13, 2016)

I'm feeling pretty optimistic that it will end up being a night and day difference from what we saw over the last 2 seasons. As long as the temps cooperate better than last year, all those new fan guns will hopefully be running at the same time with towers further up the hill, providing there is enough water and air to actually cover trails further up the hill, at the same time. There was a statement somewhere about them working with BMA  on improving the system and doing the deferred maintenance to maximize what they have to work with for this year. Pretty sure it was the same article/statement that mentioned bringing rental compressors back in.

Would be great if they could actually dredge the snowmaking pond bigger this year too, but maybe that is hoping for too much at once.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 13, 2016)

What is really like to see, is them get together with BMA and approach all the schools and colleges that Jr drove away, and make them a heckuva deal/offer to get the school programs back there again. There was no need of driving that business away.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 13, 2016)

River19 said:


> *I would think Burke would be going in guns blazing to those shows.  Who else can tout a "$55M new hotel".....*



Kind of a delicate marketing situation though in terms of "how much is too much" in terms of promoting the shiny new hotel, as plenty of people are definitely very annoyed by the whole thing.  

It's a bit like having a beautiful bride, but not wanting to brag too much lest anyone finds out she's actually mail order.


----------



## River19 (Sep 13, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Kind of a delicate marketing situation though in terms of "how much is too much" in terms of promoting the shiny new hotel, as plenty of people are definitely very annoyed by the whole thing.
> 
> It's a bit like having a beautiful bride, but not wanting to brag too much lest anyone finds out she's actually mail order.



Most of the people south of the Nimrod Line (ie. NH Exit 23) have barely heard of Burke.  Trust me at a ski show in say CT......no one has heard of Quiros or Stenger.......or at least not many...


----------



## dlague (Sep 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> Most of the people south of the Nimrod Line (ie. NH Exit 23) have barely heard of Burke.  Trust me at a ski show in say CT......no one has heard of Quiros or Stenger.......or at least not many...



Because they drive by Waterville, Loon and Cannon to get there and we all know Loon is where Boston skis!


----------



## River19 (Sep 14, 2016)

dlague said:


> Because they drive by Waterville, Loon and Cannon to get there and we all know Loon is where Boston skis!



And they can all keep their Exit 32 stickers as well......


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2016)

River19 said:


> And they can all keep their Exit 32 stickers as well......



Life begins after exit 32!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/16/eb-5-investors-burke-project-sue-immigration-lawyer-state/


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 16, 2016)

At least they invested in the Burke Hotel and not ANCBio. The investors in the latter have the least likely chance of seeing anything back out of this debacle let alone a green card.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/16/eb-5-investors-burke-project-sue-immigration-lawyer-state/




Anybody who believed this situation couldn't possibly get any worse, read the above, because you've just been proved wrong. LOL

My favorite part?

  Remember how some of us speculated here that after forcing disclosure of financial investigation it must be far more difficult, if not near impossible, for Stenger and Quiros to bring in new EB-5 investors?

It turns out it's not difficult at all if you just completely ignore the mandatory disclosures and keep the new "marks" in the dark!  ROFL



> *Quiros and Stenger had to tell new and previous investors in the Q  Burke project that federal regulators were scrutinizing the development. “(Commissioner  Susan) Donegan required Quiros and Stenger to disclose in the private  placement memorandum that the Jay Peak projects are under an  investigation by the SEC*,” Lynn wrote. “ … *however, Quiros, Stenger and  Leamy failed to provide the Weis with the memorandum*.”


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Anybody who believed this situation couldn't possibly get any worse, read the above, because you've just been proved wrong. LOL
> 
> My favorite part?
> 
> ...



Disclosure is so overrated I guess.  

"Meh, they couldn't read English."


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 16, 2016)

At the risk of tooting my own horn, I predicted quite some time ago that an immigration attorney would be sued.


----------



## River19 (Sep 16, 2016)

The other thing I found telling about this piece (nice job Digger as usual) was how it appears the "duped" Stenger was pretty eager to keep the money flow coming in, so much so that he was more than happy to wave $60K in "admin fees" for these two investors.  

Now if you didn't know you were in a Ponzi scheme situation, and you were honestly under the impression your partner Q was sitting on well organized and discreet piles of EB-5 funds still to be deployed to build out ANC and Q Burke, why the immediate rush to get more $ in?  Surely you could wait a week or two.

If your partner supposedly has 8 figures socked away per the investor agreements then why the rush for a measly $1M in additional funds right friggin' now?

Unless........unless just maybe Billy S. isn't as monumentally ignorant as the current party line of apologists would like you to believe.  Perhaps, if he knew there was a significant financial mess of Ponzi scheme proportions he knew they needed to get that money, any money, any amount into the RJ accounts ASAP.....no matter what it takes.....even wave $60K in fees if that is what it takes.....but don't wave 100% of the fees as we don't want to seem desperate do we?  Someone might catch on that $ is missing........

"Duped".....my left toe.....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2016)

River19 said:


> The other thing I found telling about this piece (nice job Digger as usual) was how *it appears the "duped" Stenger was pretty eager to keep the money flow coming in, so much so that he was more than happy to wave $60K in "admin fees" *for these two investors.



Nahhhh..... Stenger was just feeling really generous that day!


----------



## mbedle (Sep 16, 2016)

The private placement memorandum these two got already had the SEC investigation info in it. Not sure what I am missing here, but wasn't that added to the PPM in early 2015, before they could re-start marketing the Burke Hotel. Maybe the states case agains't them says something about them using the older version after the mandate.


----------



## dlague (Sep 17, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Life begins after exit 32!



Agreed!


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 18, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/18/jay-peak-receiver-quiros-purchase-offers-bogus/


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 18, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/18/jay-peak-receiver-quiros-purchase-offers-bogus/



This is beyond bizarre.


----------



## River19 (Sep 19, 2016)

Honestly, this is turning into a real life soap opera and you can't make these things up.

I'm still waiting for a story to pop about how these two guys submitting offers are old Army pals with Q or Q Jr. doing big Q a favor etc.

"Hey make it look like the value of Jay has gone up a ton so I can prove I increased the value etc.".....


I still look down at my signature here with the Q quote and I just laugh every single time.....perhaps he will have the same response if he were handed these two offers.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 19, 2016)

Third letter of intent to purchase was received. Offer to invest a total of 203 million in all of the receivership entities. Good reading up on the receiverships website. Receivership says they are all greatly flawed and incomplete.


----------



## dlague (Sep 19, 2016)

Since both offers came from the same company and they are located in the same area as Q's office in FL seems suspicious.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 19, 2016)

Interesting that the guy behind the offer (jean joseph) has his own legal problems and was the owner of a company call Evergreen United Investments, LLC that did work with the EB-5 program.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> *This is beyond bizarre.*



Not really.   I knew there was something fishy with that offer (below) as it made absolutely no flippin' financial sense whatsoever.



BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt the entire thing.  The offer price  versus what we know regarding recent year's income, their debt, etc..  makes no sense to me.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2016)

Settlement Agreement with Stenger is approved.  He is OUT of the SEC action:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/22/federal-judge-approves-stenger-settlement-sec-eb-5-fraud-allegations/

Though he is apparently not "working" at Jay anymore, I have seen references to him being a "consultant" for Burke and Jay.  Anyone know what is going on with him?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2016)

Drip, drip, drip.....

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/22/dono...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-f87f51d5e6-405558657



> In addition to the contribution from Leamy, Leahy received $5,575 from Stenger and his wife between 1998 and 2009. The Vermont Democratic Party received $48,000 from Quiros and related entities. Gov. Peter Shumlin has received $23,000 in donations from Quiros, Stenger and related entities and people.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 23, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Drip, drip, drip.....
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/22/dono...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-f87f51d5e6-405558657



I'm not a fan of the US political system, but over a 12-year period this amount of money is next to nothing.  You're not going to corrupt a politician with a few thousands (of a few hundreds in the case of BS) per year of legal donations.  

If we're to get excited about this, what would be the appropriate reaction to the hundreds of millions that have been pouring into HRC and the Donald coffers in previous months ?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 23, 2016)

The first sentence is the worst part.



> *A week after federal regulators began  questioning a developer about an alleged fraud scheme at Jay Peak  Resort, Charles Leamy who served as counsel for the resort made his  first-ever donation to a federal officeholder: $5,000 to Sen. Patrick  Leahy of Vermont.*....The donations represent the only money Leamy has given a federal officeholder.




But it's okay, because....



> *Leahy, a Democrat who is Vermont’s longtime senior senator, said he  would give the donations from Leamy to charity if the court finds that  the lawyer did “something inappropriate.”*



LOL.  Well isnt that nice?  It's sad how stupid the politicians think we are.  Even sadder is the fact that they're generally correct.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 23, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> If we're to get excited about this, what would be the appropriate reaction to the hundreds of millions that have been pouring into HRC and the Donald coffers in previous months ?



To simply realize that fools and their money are easily parted.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2016)

SAM special interview with Steve Wright:

http://www.saminfo.com/special-reports/8716-special-report-jay-peak-forges-ahead-2


----------



## machski (Sep 24, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> SAM special interview with Steve Wright:
> 
> http://www.saminfo.com/special-reports/8716-special-report-jay-peak-forges-ahead-2



Nice positive position and message.  Sounds like Steve is the type of leader Jay needs right now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2016)

machski said:


> Nice positive position and message.  *Sounds like Steve is the type of leader Jay needs right now.*



I disagree 100%.

  Keep in mind he was completely and totally naive during this whole cluster ****. 

I'd like to see them bring someone in who has their eyes wide open and cant be so easily fooled, as this scam was easy to see.  I'm not saying he perhaps isnt good at his job, but "leader" he is not.  Nobody attached to this stink directly or indirectly can be named as "leader" here.


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Sep 26, 2016)

machski said:


> Nice positive position and message.  Sounds like Steve is the type of leader Jay needs right now.


The National Ski Areas Association seems to think Steve Wright is a leader.  They just gave him an award in May.  Doh!

Some people just want to see Jay blown up.  Not sure why.  Steve knows the mountain, the culture and its loyal customers better than anyone.  To throw him in the same pot with Quieros and Stenger is short sighted.  He is one of their best assets and I highly doubt he was complicit in any of the Eb-5 wrongdoings.  Good Luck Steve!  Keep the mountain GREAT!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2016)

Looks like while in some ways everything has changed in other ways it is just business as usual....

http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/26/u-s-senate-moves-extend-eb-5-program/


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I disagree 100%.
> 
> Keep in mind he was completely and totally naive during this whole cluster ****.
> 
> I'd like to see them bring someone in who has their eyes wide open and cant be so easily fooled, as this scam was easy to see.  I'm not saying he perhaps isnt good at his job, but "leader" he is not.  Nobody attached to this stink directly or indirectly can be named as "leader" here.



I do believe that Q and his inner cabinet knew of the scam.  As for Bill--at some point he must have at least figured SOMETHING was amiss.  As to Steve Wright--I don't think so.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like while in some ways everything has changed in other ways it is just business as usual....
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/26/u-s-senate-moves-extend-eb-5-program/



A government program was completely corrupted to the point of absurdity?

I'm shocked.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 26, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like while in some ways everything has changed in other ways it is just business as usual....
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2016/09/26/u-s-senate-moves-extend-eb-5-program/



Leahy's issue seems to be more about depressed rural vs not really depressed urban not really about protecting investors though there is a quick blurb in there about that


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Leahy's issue seems to be more about depressed rural vs not really depressed urban not really about protecting investors though there is a quick blurb in there about that



Exactly.  Nice sidestep, eh?


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 2, 2016)

I heard that rental checks sent to homeowners in september bounced and  that Jay is not paying its electric bill.
Not good news.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 3, 2016)

You know for fact, or you "heard"... I doubt a court appointed receivership is going to be knowingly bouncing checks.


----------



## River19 (Oct 3, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You know for fact, or you "heard"... I doubt a court appointed receivership is going to be knowingly bouncing checks.



That is thought process as well.  As a matter of fact, since a receiver really has no tie to the history leading up to the current situation I would think it is much easier for them to raise their hand and say "this guy left things even worse than we thought......the business is struggling to bridge to winter".....

Maybe it is and more will come out; but until we see some facts laid out in the Digger etc. I would pump the brakes on "Jay Peak is bouncing checks".....that being said, with this whole sham.....where there is smoke there is usually something......


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Oct 3, 2016)

I heard that checks bounced earlier this year too, that was confirmed.
IMO probably accounting goofs since they laid off a bunch of those folks in the spring
BTW A lot of news from the mountain makes its way to the local taverns and eateries and not to Digger.


----------



## River19 (Oct 3, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I heard that checks bounced earlier this year too, that was confirmed.
> IMO probably accounting goofs since they laid off a bunch of those folks in the spring
> BTW A lot of news from the mountain makes its way to the local taverns and eateries and not to Digger.



Oh I'm sure it does, no doubt. but there is a big difference between layoffs causing a ripple in the force in the Accounts Payable dept and having financial issues.

I interpreted the original post/rumor to be suggesting financial difficulties etc. and I would wait for more concrete evidence of that personally;  I can completely see some transition issues and bills getting lost in the sauce between ownership groups.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 3, 2016)

Yeah internal malfunction here Riv (and hey, how are you?).  I'll spare you the gory but suffice to say, we have controls set up so that checks are approved and funded in a specific order and if anything ends up being mis-keyed the system halts.  Happened to two checks here and we're working to make sure it doesn't happen, or the risk is greatly diminished, again.

Hope all is well.

steve



River19 said:


> Oh I'm sure it does, no doubt. but there is a big difference between layoffs causing a ripple in the force in the Accounts Payable dept and having financial issues.
> 
> I interpreted the original post/rumor to be suggesting financial difficulties etc. and I would wait for more concrete evidence of that personally;  I can completely see some transition issues and bills getting lost in the sauce between ownership groups.


----------



## River19 (Oct 3, 2016)

Steve@jpr said:


> Yeah internal malfunction here Riv (and hey, how are you?).  I'll spare you the gory but suffice to say, we have controls set up so that checks are approved and funded in a specific order and if anything ends up being mis-keyed the system halts.  Happened to two checks here and we're working to make sure it doesn't happen, or the risk is greatly diminished, again.
> 
> Hope all is well.
> 
> steve



All is well; Good to hear things are as I suspected.....the A/P world can get easily messed up during any type of transition like the one JP/Burke have undergone. Which is primarily why I think pumping the brakes on any rumor mill is probably a good idea given the current situation 

Hopefully it is a speed bump in the grand scheme of things.

All everyone needs to do is maintain things until the snow flies.......given the current weather.....heck I would settle for a frost let alone snow at this point......


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 3, 2016)

Thanks for the update Steve. 

The electric bill was just a rumor. Glad to hear its not true. The bounced check was from a homeowner. Must have been one of the two.


----------



## machski (Oct 24, 2016)

So, Silver Mountain in Idaho just sold for the ridiculously low price of $5 million.  Many similarities to Jay (though Spokane is no Montreal) with a water park, golf course, base village and a signature gondola.  Wonder if this will put a damper on the receiver's selling price hopes at Jay.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/oct/20/seattle-businessman-buys-silver-mountain-resort-in/


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 24, 2016)

machski said:


> So, Silver Mountain in Idaho just sold for the ridiculously low price of $5 million.  Many similarities to Jay (though Spokane is no Montreal) with a water park, golf course, base village and a signature gondola.  Wonder if this will put a damper on the receiver's selling price hopes at Jay.
> http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/oct/20/seattle-businessman-buys-silver-mountain-resort-in/




The resort price will be based on annual profits, which the receiver is trying to maximize by cleaning up management practices.  I can tell you they are shaking things up at Jay.   I don't know Silver Mountain, but the selling prize simply tells you that it has a hard time turning a profit.  Jay Peak is within a 6 hour-drive to probably 20 million people.   It's probably 20 times less people for Silver Mountain.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 24, 2016)

The Burke hotel is offering a 30% discount for Christmas vacation week.  Lots of rooms are still available.


----------



## 56fish (Oct 24, 2016)

machski said:


> So, Silver Mountain in Idaho just sold for the ridiculously low price of $5 million.  Many similarities to Jay (though Spokane is no Montreal) with a water park, golf course, base village and a signature gondola.  Wonder if this will put a damper on the receiver's selling price hopes at Jay.
> http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/oct/20/seattle-businessman-buys-silver-mountain-resort-in/



Similar snowfall totals, too!


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 25, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> The Burke hotel is offering a 30% discount for Christmas vacation week.  Lots of rooms are still available.



And they will probably have lots of rooms available when Christmas week comes as well. They need to rebuild their rep and have good snowmaking with enough trails open before people book at Christmas week. Their trail count has been pretty limited there Christmas weeks of the past why would someone chance it?


----------



## Jully (Oct 25, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> And they will probably have lots of rooms available when Christmas week comes as well. They need to rebuild their rep and have good snowmaking with enough trails open before people book at Christmas week. Their trail count has been pretty limited there Christmas weeks of the past why would someone chance it?



Someone who doesn't know a whole lot would. I'm always amazed at how many people think central and northern vt has like 175" of snow by Christmas.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 25, 2016)

I not sure that Silver Mountain is very similar to Jay Peak. Kind of an odd place with the resort base disconnected with the ski area. Golf course is only 9 holes and also disconnected from the resort base. Also, throw in the superfund site...


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 25, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> And they will probably have lots of rooms available when Christmas week comes as well. They need to rebuild their rep and have good snowmaking with enough trails open before people book at Christmas week. Their trail count has been pretty limited there Christmas weeks of the past why would someone chance it?



I just checked it out - that is a pretty good deal....but for us, too long of a drive for the three nights we have free to ski, and like you said, hard to be confident in their snow making ability.  

But a two bedroom suite for 4, with two king beds, ski and stay for $1500.  Don't know what tickets are there, but 4 skiers x 3 days = 12 tickets at....$75?  $900....so, a suite for $200 a night....great deal if you aren't worried about much being open I suppose.  

I've never been to Burke.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 25, 2016)

Hoping the rental compressors and pump rebuilds, along with the pond cleaning will breath new life into the snowmaking efforts. I would guess it would be to the Receiver's benefit to show massive improvement to prospective buyers.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 25, 2016)

http://vtdigger.org/2016/10/23/vtdi...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-2bb11ae9f3-286323177


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2016)

> *Under the advice of the Vermont Attorney General’s office, the agency has refused to release records pertaining to the EB-5 program, claiming the litigation hold exemption in the Vermont Public Records Act. The attorney general is arguing the documents need to be kept private because they could be part of a court case.*




Convenient!


----------



## Krikaya (Oct 25, 2016)

I was talking to a tour guide who works with English groups who have skied Jay in the past. The English were asking if it's a good idea to book a trip to Jay this winter. I told the American tour guide about the ponzi scheme that Quiros was brazenly running and he said, "there MAY have been fraud."

I said, "No there WAS massive fraud but I don't think Jay is going anywhere as a federal receiver is running the resort." 

I know I won't be spending my $ at Jay  until it gets sorted out but I haven't really been reading up on the latest developments since spring. 

Would those of you  from the NE kingdom trust your $ on a trip this winter to Jay? If you were forking out for everything from rooms to rentals and meals and lift tickets?


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Oct 25, 2016)

Krikaya said:


> I was talking to a tour guide who works with English groups who have skied Jay in the past. The English were asking if it's a good idea to book a trip to Jay this winter. I told the American tour guide about the ponzi scheme that Quiros was brazenly running and he said, "there MAY have been fraud."
> 
> I said, "No there WAS massive fraud but I don't think Jay is going anywhere as a federal receiver is running the resort."
> 
> ...



First, If you are booking on a credit card there is no risk.

However, things are looking good up here, busy fall weekends, weddings, shows.
The vibe is positive for the resort and for having a great winter
Had almost a foot of snow sunday on mtn with some local kids out having fun already on boards.
If you like Jay, just come up and join the fun.
Its an all in winter for me, need to make up for last year, putting all the BS on the back burner
Cheers


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 25, 2016)

I don't think that I would hesitate to book a winter trip to Jay.  It's after the winter season that makes me nervous since the receiver has indicated that they operate in the red during the non-winter period.  Hopefully the resort is sold by then, but with Quiros fighting this tooth and nail, I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## skiberg (Oct 25, 2016)

I have skied Silver many times. Jay is a better ski hill. Northern Idaho is also an odd place but it's much closer to a major city, or somewhat major city in Spokane. I lived in Spokane and it's not even 1/100 of Montreal, but in that part of the world it's all there is. Similar market competition though. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Oct 26, 2016)

WCAX is reporting that Jay is late on paying its property taxes:
http://www.wcax.com/story/33487348/receiver-jay-peak-late-on-property-taxes

They intend to pay them from the Citibank settlement.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2016)

Just noticed Jay Peak increased their lift ticket from $72 to $82, which is a healthy 14% increase.

And the Vermonter rate went up 16% to $67.

Though they are doing a "buy online" in advance at discount liftopia thing like some mountains, so that's perhaps an option.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just noticed Jay Peak increased their lift ticket from $72 to $82, which is a healthy 14% increase.
> 
> And the Vermonter rate went up 16% to $67.
> 
> Though they are doing a "buy online" in advance at discount liftopia thing like some mountains, so that's perhaps an option.



The Receiver probably had no choice to raise rates....especially after last season's trainwreck....in multiple ways.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 15, 2016)

Ouch...  They will be pricing themselves out of the Quebec market, even with the 'at par' rate.  This may also be one reason not to drive that far up north for a lot of people.  I'm skeptical, but I sure don't mind less skiers if it's the end result.


----------



## MG Skier (Nov 15, 2016)

If they have the snow, I go! Even if it is a 4+ hour ride.  So basically it is one or two less beers at apres ski at the Bullwheel or the Tower Bar.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Ouch...  They will be pricing themselves out of the Quebec market, even with the 'at par' rate.  This may also be one reason not to drive that far up north for a lot of people.  I'm skeptical, but I sure don't mind less skiers if it's the end result.



Oh...good point.  I always wondered why they had a lower pricepoint.  I don't normally look at rates for Quebec.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2016)

The fact that the Canadian dollar is so weak right now makes trying to stay competitive on price very difficult.

The question is, are they going to accept the Canadian Dollar at par.
$72 * .74 = $53.28 US Dollars
$82 * .74 = $60.68 US Dollars


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 15, 2016)

They say on the website that they will accept canadian at par in cash so the exchange rate is not a problem.  

However, with the new pricing, they are now more expensive than any Quebec resort, with the exception of Tremblant.   But only idiots pay full rate at Tremblant.  You can now get a card for up to 7 non-consecutive days (no black outs) at an average price of 57$ per day whereas there are no such options at Jay.   Combine the exchange rate (which you pay for food and beer), the border crossing and the more expensive lift tickets, there is less incentive for Quebecers to drive to Jay.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> Ouch... * They will be pricing themselves out of the Quebec market, even with the 'at par' rate.  This may also be one reason not to drive that far up north for a lot of people.*  I'm skeptical, but I sure don't mind less skiers if it's the end result.



Do you really think it will be so dramatic from the Canadian perspective?   Obviously price increases dont help any, but it will interesting to see the impact, as a large portion of the clientele are Canadian.  

 To my eye, the most dramatic negative impact may occur in the Vermont market, as $67 is IMO going to seem like a lot of money for many people from Vermont.


----------



## dlague (Nov 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you really think it will be so dramatic from the Canadian perspective?   Obviously price increases dont help any, but it will interesting to see the impact, as a large portion of the clientele are Canadian.
> 
> To my eye, the most dramatic negative impact may occur in the Vermont market, as $67 is IMO going to seem like a lot of money for many people from Vermont.


Who pays full price at Jay Peak.  You can ski there 2 for 1 Sunday - Friday with The Ride and Ski Card.  Mountain Sports Club too IIRC.  The Ride and Ski tour stop also gets a 2 for 1 Saturday as well.

Liftopia has mid season lift tickets for $65 on Saturday and others in the 30s 40s and 50s on other days of the week.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 56fish (Nov 15, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you really think it will be so dramatic from the Canadian perspective?   Obviously price increases dont help any, but it will interesting to see the impact, as a large portion of the clientele are Canadian.
> 
> To my eye, the most dramatic negative impact may occur in the Vermont market, as $67 is IMO going to seem like a lot of money for many people from Vermont.



Owning a small shop on the US side of the border I can attest to BG's insight.  Locals go to Owl's Head....on select weekdays, w/exchange rate - pretty close to $50 for a family of 4.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 15, 2016)

Orford has some incredible mid-week deals as well.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2016)

dlague said:


> Who pays full price at Jay Peak.  You can ski there 2 for 1 Sunday - Friday with The Ride and Ski Card.  Mountain Sports Club too IIRC.  The Ride and Ski tour stop also gets a 2 for 1 Saturday as well.
> 
> Liftopia has mid season lift tickets for $65 on Saturday and others in the 30s 40s and 50s on other days of the week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Also most Sundays you can get the Highgate deal - http://highgatefamilyski.webs.com/ for $35


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## MG Skier (Nov 16, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Also most Sundays you can get the Highgate deal - http://highgatefamilyski.webs.com/ for $35



Thanks Smellytele!

I always do Liftopia when I know I am going up there. Wasn't aware of those other options. I have a buddy with a seasons pass, that has helped too when he buys my ticket.


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## Edd (Nov 18, 2016)

A story on the state of EB-5 was on PBS Newshour last night. Jay Peak is touched upon a few minutes in. Good piece. 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/visa-program-leaving-hopeful-immigrants-empty-handed/


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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2016)

Edd said:


> A story on the state of EB-5 was on PBS Newshour last night. Jay Peak is touched upon a few minutes in. Good piece.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/visa-program-leaving-hopeful-immigrants-empty-handed/



How touching.  Two Pakistani refugees save up money, including their food allowance money from their employers, and give it to Daddy Q who probably used it to by Baby Q his Range Rover and the Suite at Trump Tower.  Now they are SOL.  :evil: :angry:  #winning.  Makes Vermont look REALLY great.  

Paul Solman has done a great job on this topic.  I just wonder how many folks are listening.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2016)

To bad they didn't bother speaking to anyone with a shred of biotech experience before placing their "investment", as anyone could have told them how completely ludicrous that entire "plan" was from the start.  Elon Musk has a better chance at colonizing Mars.


----------



## Jully (Nov 18, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> To bad they didn't bother speaking to anyone with a shred of biotech experience before placing their "investment", as anyone could have told them how completely ludicrous that entire "plan" was from the start.  Elon Musk has a better chance at colonizing Mars.



I think the notion was that if it was 'approved' by the U.S. government it had to be legit. Little did they know...


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2016)

Jully said:


> I think the notion was that if it was 'approved' by the U.S. government it had to be legit. Little did they know...



At the very least, they should have dug a little deeper to see that the project "approved" by the U.S. government was for products that are not "approved" by the U.S. government.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2016)

Jully said:


> I think the notion was that if it was 'approved' by the U.S. government it had to be legit. Little did they know...



And "regulated" by the State of Vermont.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2016)

Property taxes, if I recall correctly, are now overdue in Jay, Burke, and Newport.  The receiver claims that they will be paid out of the Citibank settlement proceeds, which are scheduled to arrive any day now.  While I have every reason to believe that they will be paid this year, I'm nervous that Quiros will drag this out and that funds are going to be very tight next year.  The receiver can't rely on Citibank settlements forever.  

I wonder to what extent Quiros can drag this out.  Hopefully not too long, but we all know how slow the courts can be.


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## River19 (Nov 21, 2016)

It will all come down to how well they can fund the working capital accounts so they can operate the business in a manner that brings in paying customers.  If they can do that effectively they have a good chance of making things work.

The snow the past 24hrs has given people hope


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2016)

River19 said:


> The snow the past 24hrs has given people hope




This could be a banner year for l.e.s.   I'm especially very hopeful for the Catskills.


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## mbedle (Nov 22, 2016)

They filed the preliminary injunction against him and denied his motion to dismiss yesterday. Not sure how that helps with moving things along.


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## River19 (Nov 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> They filed the preliminary injunction against him and denied his motion to dismiss yesterday. Not sure how that helps with moving things along.



It certainly helps Karma move along.....


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## JoeB-Z (Nov 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> They filed the preliminary injunction against him and denied his motion to dismiss yesterday. Not sure how that helps with moving things along.



Actually the judge ruled against Quiros in the preliminary injunction. That can be found on the Jay Peak Receiver website. It was a smackdown and I wonder how long Quiros' attorneys will hang around with no prospect of getting paid.

Also receiver interview: http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/november/qa-michael-goldberg-jay-peak-receiver


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## mbedle (Nov 22, 2016)

So, based on the receiver interview, once the preliminary injection was issued, the two resorts can go up for sale or at least start the sale process. Should be interesting to see how fast that happens.

And - Stenger is still working for the receiver on a independent contractor basis, as needed.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 22, 2016)

mbedle said:


> So, based on the receiver interview, once the preliminary injection was issued, the two resorts can go up for sale or at least start the sale process.


If that's true that is fantastic news.


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## the original trailboss (Nov 22, 2016)

That must be why he was at Burke today in a Volvo with Jay Peak 3 on the plates ....


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## VTKilarney (Nov 25, 2016)

The Citibank settlement isn't able to cover the bills.  From VTDigger:
“I should be able to get contractors between 30 and 40 percent immediately, paid,” Goldberg said Wednesday. “Will try to get them more.”


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2017)

The latest.....with a key quote:



> Investors interviewed by VTDigger believed that the investments in the Jay Peak projects were safe because Gov. Peter Shumlin and the state’s congressional delegation touted the developments in the Northeast Kingdom. Investors were told that the state was overseeing the financials for the projects, which turned out not to be true.
> 
> Alexandra Castillo, a real estate agent from Mexico, says she never would have put money up for the Stateside condos if Shumlin hadn’t promoted the project with Stenger at a 2011 seminar she attended in Miami. Castillo says the governor worked to persuade the investors at the seminar. “We felt like he was there as governor and it wasn’t a scam,” Castillo said.
> 
> ...



This is NOT going away for Vermont.  

https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/31/one-investors-story-little-maybe-late/


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 3, 2017)

Many lives ruined, buy hey, there's a hockey rink to appeal to Canadian families.


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Many lives ruined, buy hey, there's a hockey rink to appeal to Canadian families.


And a water park for non skiers too!

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## tnt1234 (Jan 4, 2017)

What a drag.

It does taint the experience a little bit for me too.  Last year, went to the new stateside bar after skiing, and found myself thinking 'yeah, this was done on the cheap....not as nice as tram side....must have been cutting corners on this side because the end was near....' and other negative thoughts.

Where as a few years ago, went with the family and stayed at Hotel Jay, and was all like 'Man, they are really doing a great job here! Upgrading but keeping a kind of tough edge to everything! Well done Jay....'

Feel terrible for the folks that lost money.  Hopefully things get transferred to a new owner and the facilities don't start to fall into disrepair.  Such a great ski mountain.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 4, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> * Such a great ski mountain.*



As it was when you parked on gravel and bought lift tickets from a little Fotomat-sized hut, minus the crooked politicians and criminal activity of course.


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> As it was when you parked on gravel and bought lift tickets from a little Fotomat-sized hut, minus the crooked politicians and criminal activity of course.


Yup liked the old Jay Peak!

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Jan 4, 2017)

dlague said:


> Yup liked the old Jay Peak!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


While things went crooked up there, there is an argument to be made that had they just stuck to the old Jay Peak, there may not be a ski area there any longer.  Great mountain and Gnar factor only goes so far in this day and age.  Especially with another Gnar factor area going all posh just a bit South.


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## JimG. (Jan 5, 2017)

Gonna get up there next storm cycle now that most of the holiday shit show is over.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2017)

machski said:


> While things went crooked up there, there is an argument to be made that had they just stuck to the old Jay Peak, there may not be a ski area there any longer.  Great mountain and Gnar factor only goes so far in this day and age.  Especially with another Gnar factor area going all posh just a bit South.



It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  While the ski area no doubt makes a lot more money in the winter, their off-season overhead is massively higher.  If I recall correctly, the shortfall over the off-season is measured in the millions of dollars.  Presumably they need to make that much extra during the winter to cover their losses during the off-season.


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## Tin (Jan 5, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Gonna get up there next storm cycle now that most of the holiday shit show is over.



Planning on Tuesday for Jay. Thinking the Jay cloud makes an appearance Mon-Tues, some pretty saturated air and a decent wind direction. Not a ton but enough to make it fun, especially with 100% of terrain open with a big base.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 5, 2017)

Tin said:


> Planning on Tuesday for Jay. Thinking the Jay cloud makes an appearance Mon-Tues, some pretty saturated air and a decent wind direction. Not a ton but enough to make it fun, especially with 100% of terrain open with a big base.



Also thinking next mid week; 6 hour drive so I'd be skiing 2 days with a stay over.


----------



## Tin (Jan 5, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Also thinking next mid week; 6 hour drive so I'd be skiing 2 days with a stay over.



Hope for a southern shift (that has been happening with most cutters a week out) because Wed-Thurs looks like a washout.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 5, 2017)

Tin said:


> Hope for a southern shift (that has been happening with most cutters a week out) because Wed-Thurs looks like a washout.



Good to know; I'm a last second traveler so I can wait until the last second to decide. 

Mon-Tues may be the ticket.


----------



## Tin (Jan 6, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Good to know; I'm a last second traveler so I can wait until the last second to decide.
> 
> Mon-Tues may be the ticket.



Already trending better for mid week!


----------



## JimG. (Jan 6, 2017)

Tin said:


> Already trending better for mid week!



I will keep watch on this thread and decide by tomorrow night.

Are you a definite for Tuesday? Would love to hookup for a few runs if we both wind up there.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2017)

Even if Jay Cloud produces, doesn't look like it would get there until mid-day Tuesday.  Then sadly, models for Wednesday through Friday look ominous (and not in the good way) with warm temps, followed by a cold weekend post that rain.  So hopefully this changes as much as possible over the next 48 hours.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2017)

Drip, drip, drip......

https://vtdigger.org/2017/02/15/sco...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-9b047b2eff-405570937


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2017)

> The documents, previously withheld by the Shumlin administration, show that* federal immigration officials have considered closing the state’s EB-5 regional center. *



Golly, why on earth would they threaten to "shut down" the Vermont EB-5 center given it's the "safest" program in all of America due to the fact that it's the "only one that's government run and monitored"?  

 ROFLMAO.

I've arrived at the conclusion that all the posters here who espoused that belief over the years must have moved to the Kamchatka peninsula, because you never hear from them in these EB-5 threads anymore.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 16, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Golly, why on earth would they threaten to "shut down" the Vermont EB-5 center given it's the "safest" program in all of America due to the fact that it's the "only one that's government run and monitored"?
> 
> ROFLMAO.
> 
> I've arrived at the conclusion that all the posters here who espoused that belief over the years must have moved to the Kamchatka peninsula, because you never hear from them in these EB-5 threads anymore.



What's worse is that the legacy of Shumlin is that the Feds have SUED Vermont for this whole fiasco.  How he got a job at Harvard when it was clear from the docs that he was incompetent is beyond me.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 16, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> What's worse is that the legacy of Shumlin is that the Feds have SUED Vermont for this whole fiasco.  How he got a job at Harvard when it was clear from the docs that he was incompetent is beyond me.



Really because they did hire "Native American" Elizabeth Warren as well...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

The latest:  Quiros fires his attorneys because they were ripping him off he claims and keeping him in the dark:

https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/10/court-filings-show-bad-blood-quiros-former-attorneys/

MSS has been sued by the investors for turning over the EB-5 escrow accounts to Quiros before he bought the resort....and he used the money to buy the resort:  

https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/10/jay-peak-eb-5-investors-sue-saint-saveur-valley-resorts/

The lead plaintiff?  



> Tony Sutton, an investor in Tram Haus Lodge, and an anonymous investor in Hotel Jay say that the Canadian company had knowledge of the fraud scheme and illegally accepted monies held in escrow for investors as payment for the resort in June 2008.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

Part One of a two-part series....hopefully you can all see it without the paywall.  If not, some of you know the "trick"

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_83fd2cbb-808c-5d4d-8c39-4380d7e199c1.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2017)

....and the VT Digger article on the MSS Suit makes it sound even more like it was a scam from the start with Bill involved:



> Ten days before the closing on June 23, Stenger, acting as general partner of the Tram Haus and Hotel Jay projects, signed a stock transfer agreement with Saint Sauveur. No lender was involved in the transaction, and Quiros was not asked to provide financial statements before the EB-5 stocks were transferred, according to the lawsuit.
> 
> In his dual capacities as general partner and an employee of Saint Sauveur, Stenger had signature authority for all of the escrowed EB-5 monies and authorized wire transfers to two brokerage accounts held by the Coral Gables, Florida, branch of Raymond James & Associates.
> 
> ...



Granted it sounds like they were paraphrasing a civil complaint that makes factual allegations.

https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/10/jay-peak-eb-5-investors-sue-saint-saveur-valley-resorts/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 10, 2017)

Granted, you're only getting one-side of the story when you're hearing solely from the plaintiff, but this bit here.....



> *Quiros was not asked to provide financial statements *before the EB-5 stocks were transferred,



is particularly disturbing, and if true, would be all I'd need to know to believe MSS was indeed in on the initial scam.


----------



## 56fish (Apr 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Granted, you're only getting one-side of the story when you're hearing solely from the plaintiff.......



_"A lawyer for Saint Sauveur told Burstein that the transferred money should not be used for the purchase of Jay Peak."
_
Said lawyer have proof of statement above?

Not that Q & his team weren't shady from the get-go but, sounds like ambulance chasing.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 11, 2017)

56fish said:


> _"A lawyer for Saint Sauveur told Burstein that the transferred money should not be used for the purchase of Jay Peak."
> _
> Said lawyer have proof of statement above?
> 
> Not that Q & his team weren't shady from the get-go but, sounds like ambulance chasing.



There is written proof that MSS did notify Quiros and Raymond James that the escrow money was not to be used for the purchase of Jay Peak.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> There is written proof that MSS did notify Quiros and Raymond James that the escrow money was not to be used for the purchase of Jay Peak.



Correct. It's somewhere in the legal papers on jaypeakreceivership.com.  They knew.  They just did not care.  Happy to see them being dragged into this mess.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

A few weeks ago, the receiver spoke to the local Rotary Club.  He said a few interesting things.  One of the more memorable things is that apparently the money spent on the Burke hotel was just plain insane.  For example, they have a ski tuning machine that cost over $300,000.  There is only one other like it in the whole country.  There are many other examples.


----------



## Jcb890 (Apr 11, 2017)

vtkilarney said:


> a few weeks ago, the receiver spoke to the local rotary club.  He said a few interesting things.  One of the more memorable things is that apparently the money spent on the burke hotel was just plain insane.  For example, they have a ski tuning machine that cost over $300,000.  There is only one other like it in the whole country.  There are many other examples.


lol wtf


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> A few weeks ago, the receiver spoke to the local Rotary Club.  He said a few interesting things.  One of the more memorable things is that apparently the money spent on the Burke hotel was just plain insane.  For example, they have a ski tuning machine that cost over $300,000.  There is only one other like it in the whole country.  There are many other examples.



Me thinks somebody got a big kickback in cash for buying this machine.


----------



## slatham (Apr 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> A few weeks ago, the receiver spoke to the local Rotary Club.  He said a few interesting things.  One of the more memorable things is that apparently the money spent on the Burke hotel was just plain insane.  For example, they have a ski tuning machine that cost over $300,000.  There is only one other like it in the whole country.  There are many other examples.



Just like many politicians, its easy to spend someone else's money!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Correct. It's somewhere in the legal papers on jaypeakreceivership.com.  *They knew.  They just did not care. * Happy to see them being dragged into this mess.



Yes, this is what I meant in my last post.   It's the only explanation for them making sure they're on record stating EB-5 money cant be used for the Jay Peak purchase, while simultaneously not even bothering to financially check and see if Quiros is a qualified buyer.  

Might they get away with it?   I dont know how the law works in that regard; it's obvious to anyone with 1/2 a brain that's precisely what went down (again, if it really is true they didnt even ask to see Quiros' finances), but I have no idea what's necessary to prove guilt in a case like that.   I imagine they could argue it was an "oversight", or they could argue something ludicrous like they just "trusted" Quiros' handshake. lol   Both ridiculous, but without a smoking gun how do you prove guilt.  It's like collusion by looking the other way.



fbrissette said:


> Me thinks somebody got a big kickback in cash for buying this machine.



Most likely.  No other rational explanation.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's like collusion by looking the other way..



Enablers.  I also don't know how the law works, but MSS is as guilty as Quiros.  Same as Joe Paterno looking the other way or the catholic church sending pedophile priests to another parish.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 11, 2017)

Apparently some of these higher end tunning robots cost $175,000 and up, so $300,000 may not be out of the question for the highest end units sold by Wintersteiger or Montana.


----------



## MG Skier (Apr 11, 2017)

Does the Quiros trial have to be completed before Jay and Burke get sold?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Apparently some of these higher end tunning robots cost $175,000 and up, so $300,000 may not be out of the question for the highest end units sold by Wintersteiger or Montana.



What does the $300,000 model do that the $175,000 model does not?

And can you justify a place like Burke springing for the $300,000 version?


----------



## WJenness (Apr 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What does the $300,000 model do that the $175,000 model does not?
> 
> And can you justify a place like Burke springing for the $300,000 version?



In addition to tuning skis and boards, maybe it launders your money for you as well?


----------



## mbedle (Apr 11, 2017)

WJenness said:


> In addition to tuning skis and boards, maybe it launders your money for you as well?



LOL - thats a good one.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

I'm fascinated by a 300k ski tuning machine at Burke.

I'm sure there is someone on this board who knows about that.   What does a 300k machine does that this one cannot do:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/WINTERSTEIGER-Microjet-PRO-Robotic-Ski-Snowboard-Tuning-Machine-/151463776943

This baby can do 25 pairs of skis per hour, or 500 pairs on a 20-hour rush day.   That's more capacity than skiers on most day at Burke.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

I've pulled a few interesting tidbits from the newspaper article about the Receiver's speech to the Rotary Club:



> Goldberg described the day the sale of Jay Peak went through. At 3:52 in the afternoon funds from the EB-5 investment were transferred to Quiros, and four minutes later, at 3:56 p.m., the funds were wired back to the seller, and “Quiros buys the mountain with the investors’ money, when he was supposed to use his own money.”





> Goldberg said the government’s case against Quiros is strong, “ … the evidence is overwhelming.”





> At Jay Peak, the resort has more than quadrupled its profitability this winter, said Goldberg, “We will have a great year,” with nearly $2 million in profit, he said, thanks in large part to the snow – 366 inches – more than any mountain in New England this season.





> The hotel at Burke was supposed to cost $55 million, but ended up costing $66 million, Goldberg said. He said one high end chain who came to look at it, was stunned at some of the equipment at the hotel, including a huge state-of-the-art laundry machine which “takes linens, presses and folds them” and costs as much as $350,000.
> “It’s easy when you’re using investor money at $500,000 a pop to get these things,” said Goldberg.
> “The quality of the hotel is very good,” Goldberg said in response to a question from club member Hank Parker.
> The hotel also has a “$300,000 ski tuning machine for your skis that (a hotel chain who looked at the hotel said) there’s only one other on in New England, maybe three in Colorado,” said Goldberg. “No expenses were spared,” at the new hotel, he said.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

In other news, Quiros' new attorneys have dropped the appeal of the order freezing Quiros' assets.  

This could be as simple as Quiros wanting to get his legal fees under control - and to fight battles that actually make sense to fight.  His attorney's fees to date are nearly $3 million according to VT Digger.  He is in a separate legal fight with an insurance company.  He claims that they should cover up to $10 million for his legal defense.  The insurance company feels otherwise.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Granted, you're only getting one-side of the story when you're hearing solely from the plaintiff, but this bit here.....
> 
> 
> 
> is particularly disturbing, and if true, would be all I'd need to know to believe MSS was indeed in on the initial scam.



Correct on both.  And it does not take much digging to see that MSS is an interesting company.  I have heard it called the "Montreal Mafia."  They certainly did not care about where Quiros sourced the money for the deal even though it was pretty damn obvious that he just took the account and sent it right back to them.  Brilliant!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Correct on both.  And it does not take much digging to see that MSS is an interesting company.  I have heard it called the "Montreal Mafia."  They certainly did not care about where Quiros sourced the money for the deal even though it was pretty damn obvious that he just took the account and sent it right back to them.  Brilliant!



If their resort portfolio is any indication, it appears that they don't have any assets in the United States.  So even if there is a judgment, collecting it is another matter.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

Part II of the Cal Rec special on the EB-5 incident:

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_ef0155ef-0573-547d-87b8-0db406f27c8d.html


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *This baby can do 25 pairs of skis per hour, or 500 pairs on a 20-hour rush day. *
> That's more capacity than skiers on most day at Burke.



I bet they'd take $30k.   We should do an AZ group buy. 

 Get 100 of us to chip in $300 and it's free ski tunes for you and your entire family for life!

We'll have to locate it centrally for as many people as possible, probably southern Vermont.


----------



## Jcb890 (Apr 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I bet they'd take $30k.   We should do an AZ group buy.
> 
> Get 100 of us to chip in $300 and it's free ski tunes for you and your entire family for life!
> 
> We'll have to locate it centrally for as many people as possible, probably southern Vermont.


Can it do snowboards too?


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 11, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Can it do snowboards too?



Definitely.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2017)

http://digital.vpr.net/post/jay-pea...g-deal-will-have-far-reaching-effect#stream/0

I figure it is either (a) that Quiros has agreed to a deal, (b) one of the other financial entities has cried uncle, or (c) he has found a buyer.  I think it is more likely (a) or (b).


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2017)

I don't think that it is (c) unless Quiros has agreed to a deal, since the assets are just frozen and not free to be sold.

If you recall, a couple of posts ago, I said that Quiros seems to have shifted strategies and is less adversarial.  I think that there is a decent chance that it's (a), but that it could just be (b).

If there is a deal with Quiros, the big question is whether or not it will allow him to escape criminal prosecution.  I know that the feds work very slowly, but the fact that there hasn't been an indictment by now is rather interesting.

There have been no rumors of people kicking the tires at the resorts, which is one reason why I am not convinced that a sale will be announced.  But it's really anyone's guess.

In other news, I have heard that Burke will post a loss this year, but that the loss was not as much as they were braced for.

So if I had to place a bet, with very little confidence I would bet that Quiros has settled which will now free up the resorts to be sold.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> the big question is whether or not it will allow him to escape criminal prosecution.



Quiros is going to jail.  You dont embezzle millions of dollars, have reams of evidence against you, and not go to jail.



VTKilarney said:


> So if I had to place a bet, with very little confidence I would bet that Quiros has settled which will now free up the resorts to be sold.



If I had to place a bet, I would bet one or more financial entities (Raymond James) is settling out of court.


----------



## yeggous (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Quiros is going to jail.  You dont embezzle millions of dollars, have reams of evidence against you, and not go to jail.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to place a bet, I would bet one or more financial entities (Raymond James) is settling out of court.



I wouldn't bet on jail. Criminal charges have not been filed. White collar crime gets little attention. Do you remember 2008?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## benski (Apr 12, 2017)

yeggous said:


> White collar crime gets little attention.



Have you ever heard of Bernie Sanders?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

yeggous said:


> White collar crime gets little attention. Do you remember 2008?



The fall of 2008 was due to an unholy and moronic "partnership" between government and Wall Street, but you'd be hard-pressed to find legitimate "crimes" committed.  Dumb government policy is not a crime.  Wall Street greed is not a crime.  

 Stealing millions of dollars from foreign investors and buying New York real estate (Ariel Quiros), however, is a crime.  

 And when hedge fund goons are found to be embezzling millions of dollars, they too go to jail, I've seen it many times.  Trust me, Quiros is going to jail.   The reason it's taking so long is, as previously mentioned, the Feds are slow, as well as the fact that this is probably ridiculously complicated in terms of trying to untangle all the places and projects Quiros funneled money through.  An accounting nightmare.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> If I had to place a bet, I would bet one or more financial entities (Raymond James) is settling out of court.


I'm starting to think that you may be right.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

What's absolutely shocking to me is that Quiros' son-in-law, who is accused of aiding in this fraud, is still employed at Raymond James.

http://www.raymondjames.com/rjamiami/joel_burstein.htm


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> What's absolutely shocking to me is that Quiros' son-in-law, who is accused of aiding in this fraud, is still employed at Raymond James.
> 
> http://www.raymondjames.com/rjamiami/joel_burstein.htm



Could the answer be as simple as, if they fire him it could be used against them in court as an admission of guilt?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

benski said:


> Have you ever heard of Bernie Sanders?



Praytell, what has he done about the issue other than complain?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2017)

And I figured out what the announcement is.  Goldberg has hired BenedictGomez to run the resorts.  BG will tear down the Tram and make sure that singles lines are thoroughly checked to avoid cheaters.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Praytell, what has he done about the issue other than complain?


Well, he did take a nice photograph with Quiros.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 12, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> And I figured out what the announcement is.  Goldberg has hired BenedictGomez to run the resorts.  BG will tear down the Tram and make sure that singles lines are thoroughly checked to avoid cheaters.



As well as take care of a certain avian issue, and Make Alice's Table Great Again.


----------



## MG Skier (Apr 13, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> As well as take care of a certain avian issue, and Make Alice's Table Great Again.



Yes, please make the West Bowl Great Again.....err... I mean happen.


----------



## Edd (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Praytell, what has he done about the issue other than complain?



Pretty sure he meant Madoff.


----------



## MG Skier (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Praytell, what has he done about the issue other than complain?



Or weekend at Bernie's....


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2017)

Edd said:


> Pretty sure he meant Madoff.



Nope


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----------



## Edd (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



I am just speculating but how can you tell? Madoff seems more relevant to white collar crime than Sanders.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2017)

Edd said:


> I am just speculating but how can you tell? Madoff seems more relevant to white collar crime than Sanders.



I will ask it again: what has Bernie Sanders done about regulating the banks or fixing the problem, other than complaining?  I will answer the question: nothing.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I will ask it again: what has Bernie Sanders done about regulating the banks or fixing the problem, other than complaining?  I will answer the question: nothing.



He tried running for President.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> He tried running for President.



Exactly.  And raised a lot of money.........

In the words of Deep Throat, "follow the money."  


No more politics.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2017)

Announcement made. Raymond James settled for $150 million.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 13, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Announcement made. Raymond James settled for $150 million.



Wow.  That is the money for 300 investors.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 13, 2017)

"The agreement announced Thursday is for $145.5 million. Raymond James resolved claims by Vermont regulators for $4.5 million last year."

That pretty much says it all.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 14, 2017)

I wonder if that will put the 6 other lawsuits against them to bed.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2017)

$140mil will go a long way towards cleaning up the creditors-  that should make the prospect of a sale more possible.  I hope they don't rush that.  The receiver has been a better steward of Jay and Burke than we have seen for a long, long time.


----------



## oldtimer (Apr 14, 2017)

Really good for Burke in the near term:
-- pay off Lyndonville Electric
--pay back ataxes
--$3 million to BMA, with $1 million for the poma replacemtn and associated snowmaking et al


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> $140mil will go a long way towards cleaning up the creditors-  that should make the prospect of a sale more possible.  I hope they don't rush that.  The receiver has been a better steward of Jay and Burke than we have seen for a long, long time.



Yes.  Sad but true.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2017)

Decent article about Raymond James: http://www.investmentnews.com/artic...ialflow&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

_While not mentioning Mr. Burstein by name, Raymond James also said that the financial adviser for the brokerage accounts of the related investment partnerships is no longer employed by the firm_

That appears to be a recent development.  His listing on their website was just scrubbed within the past day or two.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Decent article about Raymond James: http://www.investmentnews.com/artic...ialflow&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
> 
> _While not mentioning Mr. Burstein by name, Raymond James also said that the financial adviser for the brokerage accounts of the related investment partnerships is no longer employed by the firm_
> 
> That appears to be a recent development.  His listing on their website was just scrubbed within the past day or two.



I figured he would be gone.


----------



## halfpintvt (Apr 14, 2017)

*Joel Burstein Re-invented*



thetrailboss said:


> I figured he would be gone.



www.linkedin.com/in/keepitsimpletraining

*Joel Burstein*

President & Owner at Keep it Simple Training and Development

Greater Pittsburgh AreaProfessional Training & Coaching
Current

SANDLER TRAINING - Keep it Simple Training and Development 
Previous

Financial Services 
Education

University of Miami School of Business Administration 
Websites

Personal Website
 


www.facebook.com/Keepitsimpletraining/


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 14, 2017)

_Joel made a career change after realizing his true passion was working with small to medium size business owners on a more intimate level_

Right......


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 18, 2017)

Wow,I have a Sandler training co as a tenant in my building.Didn't realize how huge they are.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 18, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Wow,I have a Sandler training co as a tenant in my building.Didn't realize how huge they are.



It looks like you either buy a franchise or work for someone who owns a franchise.  His business address just happens to be in a building that has a Regus shared office space.  I'm not positive that he is using Regus, but it would not surprise me.  From what little I have read online, it seems like starting out with Sandler can be tough because you have to develop a clientele.  That's why his business' Facebook page shows that he is going around giving free lectures to any club or organization that will have him.  The other Facebook entries are those pre-packaged articles that pretend to say something but are really just marketing devices.  

It looks like he is definitely paying the price for getting tied up with Quiros.  Heck, moving from Miami to Pittsburgh is punishment enough.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2017)

halfpintvt said:


> www.linkedin.com/in/keepitsimpletraining
> 
> *Joel Burstein*
> 
> ...



So is he offering training on how to run a Ponzi scheme and NOT get caught?


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 18, 2017)

Beautiful day here in the kingdom
Still lots of snow here, few people
One tram car is off the ropes with a hoist of some type suspended under the carriage.
It was up loading materials to tower 2, pretty cool.
New tower saddles next to the water park, these doppelmayr guys are on it.

Glad that good news is hitting all over the NEK bout time


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 19, 2017)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Beautiful day here in the kingdom
> Still lots of snow here, few people
> One tram car is off the ropes with a hoist of some type suspended under the carriage.
> It was up loading materials to tower 2, pretty cool.
> ...



I'll be at Jay this weekend playing in a hockey tournament. I'll try to get some shots of the tram work it I get a chance


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2017)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Beautiful day here in the kingdom
> Still lots of snow here, few people
> One tram car is off the ropes with a hoist of some type suspended under the carriage.
> It was up loading materials to tower 2, pretty cool.
> ...



What a difference a year makes.  The Receiver and his management team deserve a lot of credit.  The locals who have come to work everyday and kept a good attitude and worked hard deserve even more credit.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 30, 2017)

Jay Peak is reporting a $9 million profit this year.  That's a 1.5% return on the approximately $600 million EB-5 investment, assuming that the resort would not have posted a profit otherwise.   

It's nice to see a profit.  Hopefully some on-mountain improvements will follow.


----------



## Jully (Apr 30, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay Peak is reporting a $9 million profit this year.  That's a 1.5% return on the approximately $600 million EB-5 investment, assuming that the resort would not have posted a profit otherwise.
> 
> It's nice to see a profit.  Hopefully some on-mountain improvements will follow.



That seems like a very big margin! Good for them. Seems less impressive when you see the $600 million investment... But still.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2017)

Except for the fact that the $600M involves infrastructure that will generate returns for many, many decades.  It's not an irrelevant figure to think about, but all resorts/hotels require massive amounts of start up capital. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## benski (Apr 30, 2017)

Jully said:


> That seems like a very big margin! Good for them. Seems less impressive when you see the $600 million investment... But still.



didn't they supposedly pay hundreds of thousands for a tuning machine at burke. I know it was something absurd like that. and they some of that 600 million was stolen. I bet an honest business man would have done the same projects for much less.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Except for the fact that the $600M involves infrastructure that will generate returns for many, many decades. * It's not an irrelevant figure to think about,* but all resorts/hotels require massive amounts of start up capital.



The known results of the post "investment" (term used loosely here) years are positively horrendous regardless.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2017)

You surely must feel this way about most ski resort developments though.  You just came back from Vail.  Think of the many Billions of dollars it took to develop that area.

Also when it comes to that $600M figure at Jay, I wonder how much of that has been off set by real estate sales.

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (May 1, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> The known results of the post "investment" (term used loosely here) years are positively horrendous regardless.



Pretty good returns for Quiros.  $200-300 million or so!


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> You surely must feel this way about most ski resort developments though.



No, not at all.   Because they're typically done in a financially responsible manner and actually make sense.    In contrast, this was financially idiotic from day one, and only occurred because it was "play money", with zero real-world financial consequences behind it.


----------



## Jcb890 (May 1, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> You surely must feel this way about most ski resort developments though.  You just came back from Vail.  Think of the many Billions of dollars it took to develop that area.
> 
> Also when it comes to that $600M figure at Jay, I wonder how much of that has been off set by real estate sales.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Who's buying real estate up there?  Do you mean like people purchasing the Slopeside condos and whatnot?


----------



## dlague (May 1, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Who's buying real estate up there?  Do you mean like people purchasing the Slopeside condos and whatnot?



People with extra money to blow?  They have built a lot of condos/townhomes/homes around Jay.  I have stayed in the new units and they are pretty nice.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, not at all.   Because they're typically done in a financially responsible manner and actually make sense.    In contrast, this was financially idiotic from day one, and only occurred because it was "play money", with zero real-world financial consequences behind it.



What are your thoughts on Stowe then?  They have spent over $500M on the Spruce Peak village.  I forget the exact figures, but purely from an operating revenue stand point, Jay made more money in 2015-2016 than Stowe did.  So, has Stowe's plan not been financially idiotic as well because a parent company underwrote it?


----------



## Jcb890 (May 1, 2017)

dlague said:


> People with extra money to blow?  They have built a lot of condos/townhomes/homes around Jay.  I have stayed in the new units and they are pretty nice.


I see that and have stayed as well and also agree they are pretty nice. I wonder how many or if people are actually buying them.  People with extra money to blow seem to generally stay closer to Southern VT or venture to a "higher-class" type of place like Stowe.  Jay is very out of the way and that area isn't exactly a selling point or a destination.

That's just my opinion though, I could be way off base, but that's just how it seems.  IMO, that's what made sense about the whole project, they had the idea of building up the area, making it somewhat of a destination with some leading technology in the area.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I see that and have stayed as well and also agree they are pretty nice. I wonder how many or if people are actually buying them.  People with extra money to blow seem to generally stay closer to Southern VT or venture to a "higher-class" type of place like Stowe.  Jay is very out of the way and that area isn't exactly a selling point or a destination.
> 
> That's just my opinion though, I could be way off base, but that's just how it seems.  IMO, that's what made sense about the whole project, they had the idea of building up the area, making it somewhat of a destination with some leading technology in the area.



Jay is not out of the way from a Montreal perspective.


----------



## Jcb890 (May 1, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay is not out of the way from a Montreal perspective.


This is true.  Generally when I have been to Jay, there is a large % of Canadian people there.

Mont Tremblant and Jay are about the same distance away according to Google Maps.  I'm going to guess most Canadians still choose Tremblant, but I have 0 data or anything to back that up.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> What are your thoughts on Stowe then?  They have spent over $500M on the Spruce Peak village.  I forget the exact figures, but purely from an operating revenue stand point, Jay made more money in 2015-2016 than Stowe did.  So, has Stowe's plan not been financially idiotic as well because a parent company underwrote it?



Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?!   What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true.   That would really shock me if so.


----------



## BlueBoy74 (May 1, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?!   What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true.   That would really shock me if so.



http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...l-resorts-buy-stowe-mountain-resort/98189012/

This hints at Vail expecting $5 million in profit in the next year fiscal year. Given the year round revenue stream with the waterpark, nearly year round hockey tournaments, and proximity to Montreal, not surprising.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?!   What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true.   That would really shock me if so.



Sorry,

To clarify Jay had more operating profit than Stowe last year.  This was a direct conversation I had with a member of the Vermont Ski Area Association.  Financial performance information is shared pretty freely within the group.  Almost all ski areas in the state lost money last year.  Jay was one of the few profitable areas and actually lead the state.  It wasn't the $9M they are reporting this year.  The number $3M seems to be what I remember.  It wasn't much.


----------



## luvinjaycloud (May 1, 2017)

The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales.  It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.  

As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits  to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe (which is all i think vail is buying) to entire resort operations (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) at Jay.  Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.  

Trying to put an earnings yield on the total EB5 money raised has a lot of flaws.  First, where do you get $600 mill???  It was $350 raised from EB5 and seven projects, which were not even all at Jay peak.  It still would not be the expected return for a real estate deal of that size but while some blame the borrower for being reckless, the lenders were looking way past the fundamentals of a ski resort project and most would have been happy to just get their 10 year green card.   That's why no US bank or private equity firm would ever touch the deal because the risk /reward was too high.  And did the lenders look at the fees Quiros built in for himself in their offering documents??? (i haven't seen the offering docs but i read somewhere along the line up to 20%, that's a loser from the get go.)  

What was truly a mess has come a  long way out of the woods with the work by Goldberg and Leisure Resorts.  A new buyer is going to buy a nice resort for a big discount to asset value, be operationally profitable, and have way fewer liabilities after the Rajay deal and after they are done with Quiros.

Just please, whoever you are, do something about replacing the Jet chair and the Bonnie!


----------



## VTKilarney (May 1, 2017)

luvinjaycloud said:


> First, where do you get $600 mill???  It was $350 raised from EB5 and seven projects, which were not even all at Jay peak.


I have seen the $600 million figure in a lot of places.  But you are correct, not all $600 million was put into Jay Peak.

Here is an example:
http://nhpr.org/post/troubled-times-how-vermont-got-600-million-foreign-investors#stream/0

And here:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/27/senate-zeroes-vermont-eb-5-regional-center-budget/

Burke didn't make money this year and AnC Bio never happened.  So I stand by my statement that the return on investment for $600 million was no better than 1.5% this year.  It's likely less when you factor Burke into the mix.


----------



## Jully (May 1, 2017)

luvinjaycloud said:


> The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales.  It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.



True, but those investments likely boosted the value and number of real estate sales around the mountain. I'm assuming that's what DHS was referring to. That is arguably a much harder metric to derive, but when you're dealing with anything EB5, its all hand waving...


----------



## dlague (May 1, 2017)

luvinjaycloud said:


> The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales.  It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.
> 
> As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits  to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe (which is all i think vail is buying) to entire resort operations (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) at Jay.  Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.
> 
> ...



A[pparently we do not know the details of the shell game that was played.  Some of the money might have been used for construction of real estate.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2017)

luvinjaycloud said:


> *As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits  to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe *(which is all i think vail is buying) *to entire resort operations* (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) *at Jay. * Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.



Whatever it is, it cant be apples to apples, because there's no way Jay Peak pulls in the operating revenue that Stowe does.  



luvinjaycloud said:


> What was truly a mess has come a  long way out of the woods with the work by Goldberg and Leisure Resorts. * A new buyer is going to buy a nice resort for a big discount to asset value, be operationally profitable, and have way fewer liabilities* after the Rajay deal and after they are done with Quiros.



Exactly.  What a country!


----------



## luvinjaycloud (May 1, 2017)

dlague said:


> A[pparently we do not know the details of the shell game that was played.  Some of the money might have been used for construction of real estate.



There was definitely shadiness but there was no new real estate sold for at least the last 7-8 years, when the eb5 flow at jay was peaking.  All that new development was rental units.  

If you read Michael Goldberg' letter on jaypeakreceivorship.com you'll see $282 million was raised for Jay peak. They didn't complete approximately $17 million of those projects. 

So again while a poor return on capital for this type of project it is not as dramatically bad as you are trying to make it. (I don't count anything outside Jay).  And if a new buyer can buy the whole lot for 80-100 million and fold it into a larger portfolio then you have a viable ROE. 

The expansion of on mountain beds through the EB5 development has offset any benefit to real estate holders from the development of new amenities on mountain that would have goosed real estate values.   Prices for real estate have moved slightly higher over the past years under the Stenger Quiros reign. 

That being said the future should be very solid for the resort and its homeowners now with the RJ settlement and still some clawback from quiros to come.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 2, 2017)

According to the local newspaper, Stenger is working 10-15 hours per week as a consultant at the rate of $50 per hour.  He is also allowed the use of a Volvo.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2017)

https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/01/ste...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-258a08ef65-405558657


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## MG Skier (May 4, 2017)

For all you lift construction junkies...... Jay posted the first tram repair video. 
I would really enjoy that type of work, but not at that height! 

I hate the "Freezer" when the wind hits me after passing over the goat!

http://jaypeakresort.com/about/blog_updates/moving-parts-a-tram-story-ep1#.WQsUXGQrJz8

Enjoy.


----------



## Glenn (May 4, 2017)

Wild! That's a cool video.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 6, 2017)

Kushner family in Beijing: 'Invest $500,000 and immigrate' to US
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 7, 2017)

Not shocking.   The Kushner family is as dirty as the night is long.   Being a lifelong north Jersey resident, I've been familiar with Clan Kushner long before the rest of America learned of the name.  Safe to say, I am not a fan.  The irony is, they are bigtime Democrat donors, with both hands deep in both pockets of the Democratic Party here in Jersey, and combatants of New Jersey Republicans.

What's that you say?   You hadn't heard that?   That's surprising to hear you say?


 Yeah, that's because the media doesn't want you to know that Team Trump actually has deep-seated and deep-pocketed Democrat connections.     

The Kushner family is about as "Republican" as a Tiger is vegetarian.  With "Republicans" like them, who needs Democrats?


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 7, 2017)

By the way..... if any of you want to read about an amazingly sordid and perverted tale the national media doesn't want you to know about regarding Clan Kushner, copy and paste this into Google:

_democrat governor jim mcgreevey & charles kushner bridgewater new jersey prostitute_


----------



## benski (May 7, 2017)

> The Kushner family is about as "Republican" as a Tiger is vegetarian.  With "Republicans" like them, who needs Democrats?



Because I want politicians who believe in science.


----------



## benski (May 7, 2017)

I also would not be so sure Jared is a democrat. Outside his family he was definitely surrounded by republicans till college.


----------



## fbrissette (May 7, 2017)

Anyhow, all the moves made by this administration so far are strongly Republican.  Even it Jared and Ivanka are Democrats, they don't seem to have much of an influence anyway.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 7, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Anyhow, all the moves made by this administration so far are strongly Republican.  Even it Jared and Ivanka are Democrats, they don't seem to have much of an influence anyway.



A valid point, but it bears monitoring.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 7, 2017)

There's been very little  consistency in ideologies by the Kushners and Trumps along traditional party lines.  Both families mostly seem to be Kleptocrats. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## benski (May 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> There's been very little  consistency in ideologies by the Kushners and Trumps along traditional party lines.  Both families mostly seem to be Kleptocrats.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Inconsistency seems to be the most consistent aspect to Trump policy. It seems for every policy he puts out there, there is a Trump tweet calling it a bad idea.


----------



## bigbog (May 8, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Anyhow, all the moves made by this administration so far are strongly Republican......



Not taking sides as I like a few of the chosen cabinet members, but it seems as though winning the political warfare is the only thing that has mattered to the Conservatives in Congress for the last 9 years and now are doing their best to make things comfortable, insurance-wise for their wealthy friends.
I hope some of the people Trump has gotten into government can come up with some ideas that'll work for everyone, not just his friends who've lent him millions and who've steered him to the best tax advisors, cause the way this real estate boy thinks through issues makes Dubya look like another Albert Einstein.


----------



## jack97 (May 8, 2017)

bigbog said:


> Not taking sides as I like a few of the chosen cabinet members, but it seems as though winning the political warfare is the only thing that has mattered to the Conservatives in Congress for the last 9 years and now are doing their best to make things comfortable, insurance-wise for their wealthy friends.
> I hope some of the people Trump has gotten into government can come up with some ideas that'll work for everyone, not just his friends who've lent him millions and who've steered him to the best tax advisors, cause the way this real estate boy thinks through issues makes Dubya look like another Albert Einstein.



Depends what side of the politics and investment one is on.....

1. Pulling out of the Paris (non treaty) agreement stands to save many in terms of money. This is a tax on energy producers that consumers eventually pay.

2. Limiting the H2 visa for high tech workers. A back door policy where high tech giants such as Google, Yahoo and so on have leveraged cheaper wages for their work force.


----------



## Smellytele (May 8, 2017)

Politics on Alpine zone? I thought it was a no-no.


----------



## fbrissette (May 8, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Politics on Alpine zone? I thought it was a no-no.



it's the off-season...  

As a Canadian, in the past 6 months, I have not had a lunch or dinner (business/friends) where we did not talk about US Politics.   Really fascinating what is happening right now.   Kleptocracy and nepotism in the White house to a level never seen before.  A president with obvious psychological issues who only cares about winning, and who does not seem that interested in the legislative process, and a war against the environment and science in general.  Add that to a dysfunctional congress and senate and you have a recipe for nothing good happening.   

You guys desperately need a third political party.


----------



## Tin (May 8, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> it's the off-season...
> 
> As a Canadian, in the past 6 months, I have not had a lunch or dinner (business/friends) where we did not talk about US Politics.   Really fascinating what is happening right now.   Kleptocracy and nepotism in the White house to a level never seen before.  A president with obvious psychological issues who only cares about winning, and who does not seem that interested in the legislative process, and a war against the environment and science in general.  Add that to a dysfunctional congress and senate and you have a recipe for nothing good happening.
> 
> You guys desperately need a third political party.


----------



## mbedle (May 8, 2017)

tin said:


>



lol


----------



## Jcb890 (May 8, 2017)

This is too good not to share:
http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-civil-war-monument/

"How would they know, were they there?"
:lol:

We have to laugh about this stuff, otherwise it is just too idiotic and depressing.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 8, 2017)

https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/07/sec...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-ee7fddce97-405558657


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## dlague (May 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/07/sec...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-ee7fddce97-405558657
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Thanks for bring this back around!  It was getting very political.

What I find fascinating and makes me wonder - what if EB-5 funding had not dried up and the projects in Newport were successful as well as plans for Burke and the Airport?  He might have gotten away with this mess.  It was a gamble of sorts that could have been a success if the cards played out right!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 8, 2017)

dlague said:


> Thanks for bring this back around!  It was getting very political.
> 
> What I find fascinating and makes me wonder - what if EB-5 funding had not dried up and the projects in Newport were successful as well as plans for Burke and the Airport?  He might have gotten away with this mess.  It was a gamble of sorts that could have been a success if the cards played out right!



Probably not.  He (allegedly) started out in the hole.  He used EB-5 monies to BUY Jay Peak and then had a hole he continually had to fill.  Like any Ponzi scheme it fell apart when he lost new money.  

I think it will be interesting to see what MSSI says.  Was it a wink-wink kind of deal and MSSI should have at least suspected that Q used EB-5 money to buy the resort?  What did MSSI do to ensure that he had the money in the first place?  It is clear that he laundered the EB-5 money to buy the resort.  It is also clear that he liked the idea of being rich.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *As a Canadian, in the past 6 months, I have not had a lunch or dinner (business/friends) where we did not talk about US Politics.  *



As an American, in my lifetime, I have not had a lunch or dinner (business/friends) where we talked about Canadian Politics.  



Jcb890 said:


> This is too good not to share:



That's just bizarre.  



dlague said:


> What I find fascinating and makes me wonder - *what if EB-5 funding had not dried up and the projects in Newport were successful as well as plans for Burke and the Airport?  He might have gotten away with this mess. * *It was a gamble of sorts that could have been a success* if the cards played out right!



There was literally no chance of this ever being a success.    The giant biotech project in Newport was so completely absurd, that it was clear (as we now know) that State of Vermont did absolutely zero due diligence or fact-checking for it.  Anybody who has even casual experience in the biotech world would laugh at the entire "plan" as I did.   I confidently wrote here years ago that that project would never get off the ground - it really was that easy of a call.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> There was literally no chance of this ever being a success.    The giant biotech project in Newport was so completely absurd, that it was clear (as we now know) that State of Vermont did absolutely zero due diligence or fact-checking for it.  Anybody who has even casual experience in the biotech world would laugh at the entire "plan" as I did.   I confidently wrote here years ago that that project would never get off the ground - it really was that easy of a call.



Vermont is not out of the woods on this one.  The State has been sued by numerous parties for the claims of oversight that were NOT actually happening.  It also shows that Q took advantage of the naivity...whether intentional or not...of public officials at the state level.  

What is most upsetting is that Shumlin landed a job at Harvard as adjunct faculty teaching students about government (utterly laughable) and that Moulton moved on to yet another government job as the President of VTC.  Both of them put the State in a bad spot and yet they get rewarded.  Disgusting.

The average Joe does not understand that businesses now will NOT want to invest in ANY Vermont projects because of this shit show.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 8, 2017)

Is it the specific plan or a general belief that Biotech companies don't work in rural areas?  

Jackson Laboratories in Bar Harbor Maine employs 1300 people.  I know it's much more common for biotech companies to be located near cities or large research universities, but some do locate in remote areas.  So, I don't think the idea of having such a firm near Newport is that crazy.

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## from_the_NEK (May 8, 2017)

The parent company in S Korea had pretty much failed already and there were a string of other issues that raised red flags that were ignored.

Good list from this article in 2015.

https://thevpo.org/tag/anc-bio-korea/

[FONT=&quot]— AnC Bio Vermont is partnered with AnC Bio Korea, which has developed some promising products but has also been in severe financial straits for several years. How severe? Try “its headquarters was auctioned off in 2012” severe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Vermont firm is a separate corporation, but it’s entirely dependent on the Korean company for the intellectual property that would be the lifeblood of a Newport plant.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]— Stenger’s group said nothing about AnC Bio Korea’s difficulties in its filings with investors or its communications with the state. Galloway: “State officials… weren’t aware of AnC Bio Korea’s problems until in the course of their own research in May 2014, they learned that the Korean headquarters had been sold at auction to satisfy banks and other creditors.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]— After learning of the Korea mess, the state ordered the Stenger group to cease any communication with investors about the Newport plan. This order was ignored. Thanks, Bill.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]— Here’s a biggie buried deep in the story. The proposed site of the factory (plus 18 nearby acres) was purchased in 2011 for $3.1 million by a corporation owned by Stenger’s partner Ariel Quiros. Part of the land was sold to the EB-5 consortium, little more than a year later, for $6 million. That’s a tidy profit for Mr. Q. He’d profit even more if the plant is built and his 18 acres are adjacent to a booming factory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]— AnC Bio has yet to seek or receive FDA approval for any of its products, usually a lengthy process. Stenger: “…the FDA approval of products and services will in part be facilitated by the completion of the building.”[/FONT]


----------



## Domeskier (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> As an American, in my lifetime, I have not had a lunch or dinner (business/friends) where we talked about Canadian Politics.



Is Canada the place that had that crack-smoking obese mayor?  He was pretty awesome.


----------



## JimG. (May 8, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Is Canada the place that had that crack-smoking obese mayor?  He was pretty awesome.



Rob Ford, ex-Mayor of Toronto?

Died last year from cancer.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Is it the specific plan or a general belief that Biotech companies don't work in rural areas?



Both, in about a 90:10 proportion.

Yes, it would be very difficult to draw the type of workers needed to Newport, Vermont.

But the much larger issue was the entire "plan" if you could call it that.  It called for the manufacture of artificial organs (ROFLMAO) which aren't FDA approved.  FYI, their products aren't EMEA approved either, so there's literally nowhere on planet earth you could sell the finished product, even if they could make them in the first place, which they cant.   And in terms of severity of "government regulatory healthcare hurdles", getting artificial organs approved is no simple matter.  This isnt as simple as filing a piece of paper and some government wonk stamps it a week later, you need to run clinical trials, which are extremely expensive.   This is "go big or go home" stuff.  Not to mention, as from_the_NEK noted, they were essentially broke.    The entire thing was a complete joke, and anyone with even the slightest healthcare background could tell you this, which was another bit of circumstantial evidence I used to predict that there was no real due diligence going on by State of Vermont, despite the state's blather.




Domeskier said:


> Is Canada the place that had that crack-smoking obese mayor?  He was pretty awesome.



Oh, that's true, I forgot about him.    I'm not sure he ever came up at lunch or dinner though.


----------



## Domeskier (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, that's true, I forgot about him.    I'm not sure he ever came up at lunch or dinner though.



Other than him, I could not name a single Canadian politician without Google's help.  Well, I couldn't actually name him, either.  I guess I'm just an ignorant American, but the only time I ever hear about Canada in the news is when some self-important U.S. celebrity threatens to move there if we fail to elect some candidate that they support.


----------



## Jcb890 (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Both, in about a 90:10 proportion.
> 
> Yes, it would be very difficult to draw the type of workers needed to Newport, Vermont.
> 
> But the much larger issue was the entire "plan" if you could call it that.  It called for the manufacture of artificial organs (ROFLMAO) which aren't FDA approved.  FYI, their products aren't EMEA approved either, so there's literally nowhere on planet earth you could sell the finished product, even if they could make them in the first place, which they cant.   And in terms of severity of "government regulatory healthcare hurdles", getting artificial organs approved is no simple matter.  This isnt as simple as filing a piece of paper and some government wonk stamps it a week later, you need to run clinical trials, which are extremely expensive.   This is "go big or go home" stuff.  Not to mention, as from_the_NEK noted, they were essentially broke.    The entire thing was a complete joke, and anyone with even the slightest healthcare background could tell you this, which was another bit of circumstantial evidence I used to predict that there was no real due diligence going on by State of Vermont, despite the state's blather.



I had no idea about any of those details from_the_NEK posted.  There's only 2 possible options from the State's perspective in this - either they did no due diligence (most likely), or they were complicit in the whole scheme.

Also, I agree.  It would be very tough to draw those type of workers to Northern Vermont.  You would have to invest a TON of money beyond just the facilities.  The company would also more than likely have to over-pay for the people they would be able to lure up there.  I'm not saying it is impossible or could not happen, it just isn't very likely.


----------



## Not Sure (May 8, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Is Canada the place that had that crack-smoking obese mayor?  He was pretty awesome.



RIP , Rob Ford . Before our election I had his picture in my signature with the caption "what he said " referring to is "Pussy"
comment. It was a riddle. What he said .... answer. "Didn't matter" as Trump got elected.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I had his picture in my signature



What is the molecule in your signature?   There's a couple of alcohol groups bonded onto a benzene ring and a methy group on the end. I'm guessing it's a drug?


----------



## VTKilarney (May 8, 2017)

Don't forget that Quiros produced a market study showing just how great an idea AnC Bio was for Newport. 

Sadly, I have a feeling that there will be no consequences for the firm that produced the market study.


----------



## Not Sure (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What is the molecule in your signature?   There's a couple of alcohol groups bonded onto a benzene ring and a methy group on the end. I'm guessing it's a drug?



Adrenaline....The reason we all ski


----------



## fbrissette (May 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What is the molecule in your signature?   There's a couple of alcohol groups bonded onto a benzene ring and a methy group on the end. I'm guessing it's a drug?



adrenaline


----------



## fbrissette (May 8, 2017)

oops too late.   Took me 10 minutes to find it.  Procrastination is my enemy today.


----------



## Jcb890 (May 8, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Don't forget that Quiros produced a market study showing just how great an idea AnC Bio was for Newport.
> 
> Sadly, I have a feeling that there will be no consequences for the firm that produced the market study.


There almost never is.

Look at the firm Exponent used as an "Independent Researcher" and scientific backing for the Deflategate garbage.  Their report was obviously flawed and they often reach "questionable conclusions based on their allegiances."

Here's a couple of great ones - dumping oil waste doesn't cause cancer:


> “[In May 2009], the Amazon Defense Coalition alleged that an Exponent study finding that dumping oil waste in the Ecuadorean rain forest did not increase cancer rates was tainted because the firm’s largest shareholder was a member of the board of Chevron Corp., which commissioned the study.”



Or how about this gem?  They argued for Big Tobacco that second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer:


> “Stanton Glantz, [is] a cardiologist at UC San Francisco who runs a database on the tobacco industry that contains thousands of pages of Exponent research arguing, among other things, that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer.”



Two claims that *EVERYONE* knows are false.  They're still employed and still retained by large corporations and paid large sums of money to provide "scientific backing" which basically just aligns with what whoever is paying them wants it to say.


----------



## Jully (May 8, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> There almost never is.
> 
> Look at the firm Exponent used as an "Independent Researcher" and scientific backing for the Deflategate garbage.  Their report was obviously flawed and they often reach "questionable conclusions based on their allegiances."
> 
> ...



+1


----------



## ForcedHotWater (May 8, 2017)

Dumbskier said:


> I could not name a single Canadian politician without Google's help.



Oh this guy _definitely _voted for the ButtTrumpet.  No longer content to be anonymously ignorant, he's proud of his ignorance and since the election wants the world to acknowledge it. _So _funny and _so _appropriate.

New rule:

All ButtTrumpeters shall be pulled from the dank, stinky holes in which they live (read:  roll around in piles of their own filth), and summarily shot.

(That post ought to bring the ban hammer - this toilet is swimming with ButtTrumpeters.  I can smell 'em!  Hahaha!)


----------



## Jcb890 (May 8, 2017)

ForcedHotWater said:


> Oh this guy _definitely _voted for the ButtTrumpet.  No longer content to be anonymously ignorant, he's proud of his ignorance and since the election wants the world to acknowledge it. _So _funny and _so _appropriate.
> 
> New rule:
> 
> ...


Judging by people's posts, I don't think there's very many Trump voters in here.  That's not even a good effort.


----------



## ForcedHotWater (May 8, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Judging by people's posts, I don't think there's very many Trump voters in here.  That's not even a good effort.



Maybe.  But I know there's at least one.:beer::beer:


----------



## Jcb890 (May 8, 2017)

ForcedHotWater said:


> Maybe.  But I know there's at least one.:beer::beer:


Um, cool?
At least at first your shtick was mildly amusing.  Now its just stale and honestly, the effort seems lacking.


----------



## ForcedHotWater (May 8, 2017)

My effort is commensurate with my opinion of the audience.  I refuse to throw pearls before swine.


----------



## benski (May 8, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> [FONT="]— Here’s a biggie buried deep in the story. The proposed site of the factory (plus 18 nearby acres) was purchased in 2011 for $3.1 million by a corporation owned by Stenger’s partner Ariel Quiros. Part of the land was sold to the EB-5 consortium, little more than a year later, for $6 million. That’s a tidy profit for Mr. Q. He’d profit even more if the plant is built and his 18 acres are adjacent to a booming factory.[/FONT]



I wonder how much of the total cost of the projects was this type of bullshit.


----------



## benski (May 8, 2017)

ForcedHotWater said:


> Maybe.  But I know there's at least one.:beer::beer:



Chiefly BenedictGomez.


----------



## jack97 (May 8, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Is it the specific plan or a general belief that Biotech companies don't work in rural areas?
> 
> Jackson Laboratories in Bar Harbor Maine employs 1300 people.  I know it's much more common for biotech companies to be located near cities or large research universities, but some do locate in remote areas.  So, I don't think the idea of having such a firm near Newport is that crazy.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app




According to wiki, Jackson Lab is a non profit and they have another lab in CT. This only brings out the topic why the Bar Harbor Location was selected in the first place. A high tech lab or center that can be sustain for the long term (over several decades) needs to be near universities that can supply a steady stream of brain power.  Lab or high tech offices in rural area are short term facilities either to satisfy the lifestyle of very senior people within the company or to leverage some type of financial advantage.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 8, 2017)

jack97 said:


> According to wiki, Jackson Lab is a non profit and they have another lab in CT. This only brings out the topic why the Bar Harbor Location was selected in the first place. A high tech lab or center that can be sustain for the long term (over several decades) needs to be near universities that can supply a steady stream of brain power.  Lab or high tech offices in rural area are short term facilities either to satisfy the lifestyle of very senior people within the company or to leverage some type of financial advantage.



I was about to say that the likely reason for the lab being in Bar Harbor is because it is Bar Harbor and that is a nice place to be forced to "work" or "visit", particularly in the warmer months.


----------



## Domeskier (May 8, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Um, cool?
> At least at first your shtick was mildly amusing.  Now its just stale and honestly, the effort seems lacking.



The best part is that he'll be back in a decade to celebrate the tenth anniversary of that zinger!


----------



## thetrailboss (May 9, 2017)

Looks like the Judge is going to compel his Quebec counterpart to make MSSI to appear at deposition...no surprise:  

https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/08/jud...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-dc89294d65-405558657


----------



## fbrissette (May 9, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like the Judge is going to compel his Quebec counterpart to make MSSI to appear at deposition...no surprise:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/08/jud...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-dc89294d65-405558657




Good.  It's likely this whole mess could have been avoided if MSSI had acted responsibly.


----------



## yeggous (May 9, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I was about to say that the likely reason for the lab being in Bar Harbor is because it is Bar Harbor and that is a nice place to be forced to "work" or "visit", particularly in the warmer months.



Exactly. Perfect example of this is Woods Hole which has had a vibrant research community for decades.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## jack97 (May 9, 2017)

yeggous said:


> Exactly. Perfect example of this is Woods Hole which has had a vibrant research community for decades.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app




Exactly...... WH is within 90 min driving distance of 3 major universities ranked in the top 15, MIT, Harvard and Brown. Two of which has a long and rich history of Oceanography and physical science. In addition, it is within the same driving distance for four universities, BC, BU, NU and Tuft which are ranked in the top 50. University Rhode Island ranked in top 100 and then there's Yale which is over two hours of driving.  WH had some work for exotic undersea communication work which funded some profs that I knew. My point, WH can pull in brain power and they teach as well. Another prof I had got joint a degree from WH and MIT.


----------



## Jully (May 9, 2017)

jack97 said:


> Exactly...... WH is within 90 min driving distance of 3 major universities ranked in the top 15, MIT, Harvard and Brown. Two of which has a long and rich history of Oceanography and physical science. In addition, it is within the same driving distance for four universities, BC, BU, NU and Tuft which are ranked in the top 50. University Rhode Island ranked in top 100 and then there's Yale which is over two hours of driving.  WH had some work for exotic undersea communication work which funded some profs that I knew. My point, WH can pull in brain power and they teach as well. Another prof I had got joint a degree from WH and MIT.



Agreed. I'm not sure Woods Hole and the NEK are comparable. WH is directly affiliated with MIT. If you get a PhD at MIT in oceanography you will work at WH.

I don't buy that just because Mount Desert Island Labs are a non-profit makes them an invalid comparison. I would say the question is rather is Bar Harbor/Acadia a fair comparison to the NEK and I really don't have an answer to that. I would guess no, but I know that I would have jumped at the opportunity to live and work in the NEK when I was choosing research jobs (I am not necessarily your average researcher though).


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## deadheadskier (May 9, 2017)

Reason why I brought up Bar Harbor is because I thought it presented a good comparison to the NEK.  

I don't know how many of you folks have spent any time in Bar Harbor between November 1st and May 1st, but it's an absolute ghost town. Probably 90+% of businesses close.  The nearest intellectual capital from a University stand point is UMAINE about an hour away.  There's Colby, Bates and Boudin at roughly two hours away. Yet they've got 1300 employee willing to live and work there including 200+ with PHDs.  

Now it wouldn't be easy to bring in a high tech employer to the NEK, but it does happen in similar areas with Bar Harbor being something comparable.  That's why I brought it up.



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## jack97 (May 10, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Reason why I brought up Bar Harbor is because I thought it presented a good comparison to the NEK.
> 
> I don't know how many of you folks have spent any time in Bar Harbor between November 1st and May 1st, but it's an absolute ghost town. Probably 90+% of businesses close.  The nearest intellectual capital from a University stand point is UMAINE about an hour away.  There's Colby, Bates and Boudin at roughly two hours away. Yet they've got 1300 employee willing to live and work there including 200+ with PHDs.
> 
> ...



Colby, Bates and Bowdion are top Liberal Arts universities and each have biotech programs. So it's understandable on how these schools can feed this lab. And perhaps foster a tech center of several companies. Time will tell whether this could be kick started, the school and lab needs programs and products to flourish. 

Not sure about NEK either, it's close proximity UVT and Champlain may have something to do with the lab.

btw, my apologies to the university rankings, I recently went through this when my daughter was deciding about college. Like it or not, we work in industries where the first job is influence by the college program one attends.


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## deadheadskier (May 10, 2017)

UVM, Dartmouth and some top Universities in PQ have strong PHD engineering programs and are all within equal proximity to the NEK as those schools are to Bar Harbor.  The NEK is also in a better location logistically with highway access for shipping than is Bar Harbor.

Like I said, the NEK is an unlikely destination for a biotech start up, but no more so than Bar Harbor.  If the right plan ever came along (the one in the discussion clearly wasn't) I would think the state should do whatever it can to support it.  A similar company to what exists in Bar Harbor would be pretty transformative to the NEK economy.

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## fbrissette (May 10, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Like I said, the NEK is an unlikely destination for a biotech start up, but no more so than Bar Harbor.  If the right plan ever came along (the one in the discussion clearly wasn't) I would think the state should do whatever it can to support it.  A similar company to what exists in Bar Harbor would be pretty transformative to the NEK economy.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Burlington is the only place which makes sense in Vermont.


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## VTKilarney (May 10, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Like I said, the NEK is an unlikely destination for a biotech start up, but no more so than Bar Harbor.  If the right plan ever came along (the one in the discussion clearly wasn't) I would think the state should do whatever it can to support it.  A similar company to what exists in Bar Harbor would be pretty transformative to the NEK economy.



The Bar Harbor firm is very interesting indeed.  I never would have guessed that there would be a biotech company in Bar Harbor that employed in excess of a thousand people.  Thanks for pointing it out.

The issue, however, is a little more complicated. 

First, we do not know how successful the Bar Harbor company is at their location.  I'd like to know if they are fully staffed, and if they are able to attract the candidates that they actually want to attract.

Second, there is not an infinite number of tech graduates who are willing to live in the middle of nowhere New England.  It is very possible that the Bar Harbor firm's presence makes it much more difficult for a NEK company to recruit talent.

Third, a lot of people have a romantic idea of living on the Maine coast.  Much more than have a romantic idea of living in the NEK.

But the fact that someone figured out how to do it in Bar Harbor is definitely food for though.


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## benski (May 10, 2017)

You guys all sound a little afraid to try something new and take risks.  Why not try offering biotech jobs in a community that was previously off limits to biotech employees. Some might be excited to have that option.


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## thetrailboss (May 10, 2017)

benski said:


> You guys all sound a little afraid to try something new and take risks.  Why not try offering biotech jobs in a community that was previously off limits to biotech employees. Some might be excited to have that option.



I don't think any of us object to that, let alone have any say as to where these companies land. And here it's moot because AnCBio was a fraud from the start. 


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## VTKilarney (May 10, 2017)

benski said:


> You guys all sound a little afraid to try something new and take risks.  Why not try offering biotech jobs in a community that was previously off limits to biotech employees. Some might be excited to have that option.



The conversation about location is only about 10% of the concern with AnC Bio.  The bigger issue is the fact that a liquidated Korean corporation intended to spend massive amounts of other people's money in order to sell an unproven product that very few people believed would ever be approved for sale.


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## deadheadskier (May 10, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The Bar Harbor firm is very interesting indeed.  I never would have guessed that there would be a biotech company in Bar Harbor that employed in excess of a thousand people.  Thanks for pointing it out.
> 
> The issue, however, is a little more complicated.
> 
> ...



I am going to assume Jackson Laboratory is pretty successful. It was founded in Bar Harbor in 1929 and remained there ever since. That's a very long run through some challenging times in history as well an era where transportation to that area was pretty difficult.

In terms of the romantic idea of living in the NEK vs the Maine Coast, I guess it really depends on what you are into lifestyle wise.  If winter activities are your preference than the NEK would be the clear winner.  Proximity to a large metro is an advantage for the NEK as well.  


VTKilarney said:


> The Bar Harbor firm is very interesting indeed.  I never would have guessed that there would be a biotech company in Bar Harbor that employed in excess of a thousand people.  Thanks for pointing it out.
> 
> The issue, however, is a little more complicated.
> 
> ...


I am going to assume Jackson Laboratory is pretty successful. It was founded in Bar Harbor in 1929 and has remained there ever since. That's a very long run through some challenging times in history as well an era where transportation to that area was pretty difficult.

In terms of the romantic idea of living in the NEK vs the Maine Coast, I guess it really depends on what you are into lifestyle wise.  If winter activities are your preference than the NEK would be the clear winner.  Summer obviously would go to the Bar Harbor area though some folks might actually get annoyed with how inundated with visitors the area gets.

Proximity to a large metro is an advantage for the NEK as well.  Newport is under 2 hours from Montreal or 3.5 to Boston.   Bar Harbor you are 3 hours just to Portland and 4.5+ to Boston.  So, there's a clear "near civilization" advantage being in the Newport area.

I would assume the only real shot the NEK would have at attracting this kind of business is if the founders of the company had a personal affinity to the area. Jackson Labs was started by a former UMaine president.

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## deadheadskier (May 10, 2017)

Weird. Not sure why part of my post and your quote was duplicated. That wasn't intended

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## Jully (May 10, 2017)

The Jackson Labs at Mount Desert Island are successful. They do some amazing research and offer some excellent services used throughout New England and beyond. I have friends that work there and the location does not appear to be a flaw at all in them attracting employees anymore than location is a flaw for all employers. FWIW, the MDI labs don't just draw from Maine. They draw from all throughout New England including the Boston area. 

Your comment, DHS, about the NEK versus the Maine Coast is a very good one. As I mentioned earlier, I'd have jumped at the chance of working in the NEK and would have not wanted to work on the Maine Coast that far up there. I'm not sure if it balances out, but I bet its pretty darn close. 

Like BG originally said though, the issue with AncBio was 90/10 with the 90% being the ridiculous fraud it was. I'd love to see tech move out of the cities more and hope it does. I really hope VT jumps at the opportunity to bring some bio tech and other research into the state. New Hampshire has Dartmouth which brings a lot of medical related jobs and research and some bio tech along with it. VT doesn't have that at this point as UVM is not on the same level. Some private jobs in that department would be awesome for the state, IMO.


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## DoublePlanker (May 10, 2017)

Some discussion of biotech for Manchester NH.  Proximity to labor force in Boston is a key factor.
http://www.unionleader.com/business/Biotech-center-a-golden-egg-for-NHtech_sector_

I think any tech is concentrated.  Sure there can be a company anywhere.  But there are certain Metro areas that seemingly dominate.


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## BenedictGomez (May 10, 2017)

Jully said:


> I'm not sure Woods Hole and the NEK are comparable.



They're not.



deadheadskier said:


> Reason why I brought up Bar Harbor is because I thought it presented a good comparison to the NEK.



Living in a vacation destination Oceanside town is definitely not a good comparison in terms of desirability compared to Newport, Vermont (no offense to anyone from Newport, but, I mean, come on now).  That being said, I'm not sure even Bar Harbor could pull this off today if it was a startup, which is what we're talking about.  One thing I am sure of, you'd need much deeper pockets than is necessary to pull it off, and again, the "pockets" in this case weren't just empty, they had holes in them.



fbrissette said:


> *Burlington is the only place which makes sense in Vermont*.



Correct.  Burlington I could see pulling off a biotech startup.  Wouldn't be simple, but I could see it.

The problem, however, is that Vermont has politically become shockingly extremist in the last decade or so, and if an entity even so much as thinks about making a profit, Vermont will "punish" that "greed" to death with regulatory burdens and taxation.   A start-up in Vermont is a very poor choice, which is why they aint exactly flocking to Vermont.


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## deadheadskier (May 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Living in a vacation destination Oceanside town is definitely not a good comparison in terms of desirability compared to Newport, Vermont (no offense to anyone from Newport, but, I mean, come on now).



Like I said, it depends on the person.  I spent two stints of six months on Cape Cod during tourism season and I got off the Island every chance I could get and couldn't wait for the season to be done.  For the past ten years I've lived within 15-30 minutes of some incredibly scenic beaches in Maine and NH, but I might visit them on average 5 times a summer. The water is brutally cold (and much worse up in Bar Harbor) and the crowds are just not worth dealing with.  I do however drive considerably further pretty much every weekend to visit less crowded lakes and rivers.  Economics being equal, I'd live in the NEK over Bar Harbor without question.


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## fbrissette (May 10, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Like I said, it depends on the person.  I spent two stints of six months on Cape Cod during tourism season and I got off the Island every chance I could get and couldn't wait for the season to be done.  For the past ten years I've lived within 15-30 minutes of some incredibly scenic beaches in Maine and NH, but I might visit them on average 5 times a summer. The water is brutally cold (and much worse up in Bar Harbor) and the crowds are just not worth dealing with.  I do however drive considerably further pretty much every weekend to visit less crowded lakes and rivers.  Economics being equal, I'd live in the NEK over Bar Harbor without question.



A more interesting question is NEK vs Burlington.  I cannot think of a single reason why one would pick the former over the latter, unless you might think it might be easier to con someone in the NEK.  And even then, it did not take long for Tony Pomerleau to smell BS.




BenedictGomez said:


> Correct. Burlington I could see pulling off a biotech startup. Wouldn't be simple, but I could see it.
> 
> The problem, however, is that Vermont has politically become shockingly extremist in the last decade or so, and if an entity even so much as thinks about making a profit, Vermont will "punish" that "greed" to death with regulatory burdens and taxation. A start-up in Vermont is a very poor choice, which is why they aint exactly flocking to Vermont.



Good point.   I was not taking taxation and regulations into account.   Otherwise, Burlington has lots to offer to attract an educated workforce.


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## deadheadskier (May 10, 2017)

re: Burlington vs NEK

As mentioned earlier, someone would need to have a strong personal affinity to the area.  That's likely why Bar Harbor was selected for Jackson Lab over Portland.  Portland obviously makes more sense.  Burlington obviously makes more sense.


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## Jcb890 (May 10, 2017)

I love New England too, but lets be honest, NEK isn't a destination for most people.

DHS, you're not the average person.  None of us really are, we're a small group of people who have rather different ideas of what we like and what we value.  Generally speaking, a graduate from college with a high-tech degree isn't looking to move to the middle of nowhere Vermont or New Hampshire.  They want to live in Boston, NYC, or somewhere that's interesting... maybe somewhere by the ocean.

Also, that being said... I'm open to moving out of New England myself and probably wouldn't be interested in taking a job in the middle of nowhere Vermont.  Many of the areas really aren't that nice either to be honest, many of them are pretty run-down and dumpy.

Again, I don't mean to bad-mouth anyone or rustle any feathers, just trying to look at it objectively.


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## Smellytele (May 10, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I love New England too, but lets be honest, NEK isn't a destination for most people.
> 
> DHS, you're not the average person.  None of us really are, we're a small group of people who have rather different ideas of what we like and what we value.  Generally speaking, a graduate from college with a high-tech degree isn't looking to move to the middle of nowhere Vermont or New Hampshire.  They want to live in Boston, NYC, or somewhere that's interesting... maybe somewhere by the ocean.
> 
> ...



Southern NH has a lot of high-tech people. Also a great deal of "high-tech" people work from home. Not bio but regular high-tech folks. so they could live anywhere.


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## BenedictGomez (May 10, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Southern NH has a lot of high-tech people.



Arent a lot of them people who "fled" Massachusetts?  I seem to recall a discussion on here in the last year or so about southern NH being overrun by the (former) denizens of Mass.


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## thetrailboss (May 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Arent a lot of them people who "fled" Massachusetts?  I seem to recall a discussion on here in the last year or so about southern NH being overrun by the (former) denizens of Mass.



Yes.


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## jack97 (May 11, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Generally speaking, a graduate from college with a high-tech degree isn't looking to move to the middle of nowhere Vermont or New Hampshire.  They want to live in Boston, NYC, or somewhere that's interesting... maybe somewhere by the ocean.



+1

All the recent hires I know live near Boston and will commute close to an hour to work in the metro west / suburbia areas.

Heck.... my daughter wants to live in NYC when she gets her degree.


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## Smellytele (May 11, 2017)

jack97 said:


> +1
> 
> All the recent hires I know live near Boston and will commute close to an hour to work in the metro west / suburbia areas.
> 
> Heck.... my daughter wants to live in NYC when she gets her degree.




My son in college wants nothing to do with living in any city.


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## cdskier (May 11, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> My son in college wants nothing to do with living in any city.



I never had any interest in living in any city either when I graduated college. I also have no interest in working in the city (and I live 8 miles outside of NYC but would most likely never consider a job there).


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## Jcb890 (May 11, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> My son in college wants nothing to do with living in any city.


I have no interest in living in any city either.  However, I also don't really have interest in living in the middle of nowhere Vermont or New Hampshire either.


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## Hawk (May 11, 2017)

Everybody is certainly different.  I hate the city but have commuted to the downtown Boston area every working day for the last 25 years.  But I flee to my suburban life and Vermont every moment I can.  The job is a means to an end and that end is my Fun.  If I could find a good paying job in VT I would move to the MRV in a second.  I have friends that have done that and I envy them.  But lets face it, the grand majority of the graduating Millennials are going to want that apartment or condo in the city where the culture, clubs and restaurants are hip and the latest and greatest.  It will take years of droning in the city to wear them down to the realization that city life sucks and then they will think about moving.


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## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I never had any interest in living in any city either when I graduated college.* I also have no interest in working in the city (and I live 8 miles outside of NYC but would most likely never consider a job there).*



Every time I took a train out to NJ to visit my girlfriend or other friends, my egregious Manhattan rent seemed a bit less egregious.   I have no idea how thousands of people commute into Manhattan from NJ, NY, CT each day, but god bless them.  To me, it's genuinely horrible. Just miserable.  Sure, I would be paid a good bit more if I took another job in the city, but after taxes, that number is not as impressive as it sounds, nor is the headache and decrease in lifestyle for me.  When I was younger, living in Manhattan was AMAZING, but then I reached a point where I desperately wanted to get back to the country where I am now.  The city is still just an hour away if I want to visit, yet I can walk out my backdoor with a shotgun and go hunting.  That to me, is good balance.


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## dlague (May 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Arent a lot of them people who "fled" Massachusetts?  I seem to recall a discussion on here in the last year or so about southern NH being overrun by the (former) denizens of Mass.



Southern NH (Manchester and South) is Massachusetts!  They vote like MA and most work there too! 



Smellytele said:


> My son in college wants nothing to do with living in any city.



Of our 4 boys only one has hopped on the city lifestyle band wagon.  the others want more of the outdoors life.  Then again that is how we raised them.



Jcb890 said:


> I have no interest in living in any city either.  However, I also don't really have interest in living in the middle of nowhere Vermont or New Hampshire either.



There are different types of city living.  NYC or Boston would not be my gig, however:

Prior to moving I lived in Concord which was a good job center with easy access to mountains, sea coast and Boston.  That was about as far north as i would go.  Concord was a ski town of sorts surrounded by Gunstock, Pats and Ragged as well as Crotched not to far and a great hub for most everything in VT, NH and Western ME.  Our kids grew up in ski programs out of their schools - during school hours.

Then there are cities like Colorado Springs with a population of close to half million but it is so spread out and it does not have that downtown city feel but everything you want in a city is here but on a smaller scale yet hiking. fishing, climbing, MTB, SUP etc are 15-30 minutes away and it is 1:30 ish hours to LL and AB.


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## deadheadskier (May 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Every time I took a train out to NJ to visit my girlfriend or other friends, my egregious Manhattan rent seemed a bit less egregious.   I have no idea how thousands of people commute into Manhattan from NJ, NY, CT each day, but god bless them.  To me, it's genuinely horrible. Just miserable.  Sure, I would be paid a good bit more if I took another job in the city, but after taxes, that number is not as impressive as it sounds, nor is the headache and decrease in lifestyle for me.  When I was younger, living in Manhattan was AMAZING, but then I reached a point where I desperately wanted to get back to the country where I am now.  The city is still just an hour away if I want to visit, yet I can walk out my backdoor with a shotgun and go hunting.  That to me, is good balance.



Same rationale for why I live in Southern NH instead of Boston.  Well that and being near my wife's family.  I never have lived in a big city nor have I had the desire to.  I did however very much enjoy living in downtown Portland, Maine.  That I could go back to. It has most of the cultural benefits of a big city without all of the headaches.  In fact, for the most part my wife and I will go to Portland over Boston to do the "city thing" even though we live the exact same distance from each.  I'll only entertain the idea of going into Boston for an overnight on a Saturday.  We've done Friday night sporting events and concerts in the past and it's just too much of a hassle fighting through the traffic to get there.  Saturdays aren't bad though.


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## Domeskier (May 11, 2017)

Cities are generally expensive, crowded and filthy, but the benefits are not all just hipster nonsense.  It's nice not having to own or drive a car everywhere or maintain a lawn or shovel snow.  It's also nice if you value privacy and would prefer not to get to know all your dreary neighbors.  The advantages probably increase as you get older and less mobile, with easy access to decent healthcare being chief among them.


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## VTKilarney (May 11, 2017)

I can tell you from first hand experience that it is insanely difficult to recruit talent to come to the NEK of Vermont.  If a recruit is married, the odds of their spouse finding comparable work in the NEK are slim to none.  And if they aren't with a partner, most don't see the dating pool here as the best.


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## Jully (May 11, 2017)

dlague said:


> There are different types of city living.  NYC or Boston would not be my gig, however:
> 
> Prior to moving I lived in Concord which was a good job center with easy access to mountains, sea coast and Boston.  That was about as far north as i would go.  Concord was a ski town of sorts surrounded by Gunstock, Pats and Ragged as well as Crotched not to far and a great hub for most everything in VT, NH and Western ME.  Our kids grew up in ski programs out of their schools - during school hours.
> 
> Then there are cities like Colorado Springs with a population of close to half million but it is so spread out and it does not have that downtown city feel but everything you want in a city is here but on a smaller scale yet hiking. fishing, climbing, MTB, SUP etc are 15-30 minutes away and it is 1:30 ish hours to LL and AB.





Domeskier said:


> Cities are generally expensive, crowded and filthy, but the benefits are not all just hipster nonsense.  It's nice not having to own or drive a car everywhere or maintain a lawn or shovel snow.  It's also nice if you value privacy and would prefer not to get to know all your dreary neighbors.  The advantages probably increase as you get older and less mobile, with easy access to decent healthcare being chief among them.



I moved to Boston this year from Cumberland County ME. I hated cities my whole life and had no desire to live in one. I specifically chose the least city part of Boston but have grown to not hate it and instead tolerate it. The 'benefits' of cities that Dome is talking about I notice and agree with. I absolutely love not having to drive to a restaurant or even to the grocery store. Turns out I like walking and dislike cars more than I previously thought.

All that said though, Boston is not where I want to be long term. Like dlague said, I think I want to end up in a place like Burlington VT, Concord, Manchester, or Portland. Living in Cumberland County ME I spent a lot of time in Portland and LOVE it. Issue is its further from skiing than I'd like, same with Manchester. 

I would rather live for 20 years in the NEK than 20 years in Boston or NYC though.


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## BenedictGomez (May 11, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> *most don't see the dating pool here as the best.*



Depends on your type; for instance, if your type is overweight and with fewer than 32 teeth, it's awesome.


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## cdskier (May 11, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Depends on your type; for instance, if your type is overweight and with fewer than 32 teeth, it's awesome.



Strange that it attributed what you quoted to me when it was from VTK's post.


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## BenedictGomez (May 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Strange that it attributed what you quoted to me when it was from VTK's post.



Really weird.  I went to see if I could edit it and it did work.


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## mbedle (May 22, 2017)

Does anybody know exactly what this quote from the receivership means. This was taken from a letter they sent out to investors last week. Is he really thinking that the state is going to sell him the upper section of the mountain that is part of Jay State Forest? I looked online and they appear to already own 2600 acres including most of the base area, golf course and west bowl. Maybe he is thinking that since most of the Phases were structured to sell the land that the hotels were built on to the partnership and he is trying to get that land back under the larger parcel that Jay Peak owns. 

"Finally, I am optimistic that I will eventually obtain the contiguous mountain, which is not currently owned by the Jay Peak Resort, and sell it along with the resort buildings. If I am successful in this, the Phase 2 through 6 investors will benefit greatly as this will significantly increase the value of the overall resort. Without the mountain, the value of the Phase 2 through 6 investors' investment would be significantly less."


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Does anybody know exactly what this quote from the receivership means. This was taken from a letter they sent out to investors last week. Is he really thinking that the state is going to sell him the upper section of the mountain that is part of Jay State Forest? I looked online and they appear to already own 2600 acres including most of the base area, golf course and west bowl. Maybe he is thinking that since most of the Phases were structured to sell the land that the hotels were built on to the partnership and he is trying to get that land back under the larger parcel that Jay Peak owns.
> 
> "Finally, I am optimistic that I will eventually obtain the contiguous mountain, which is not currently owned by the Jay Peak Resort, and sell it along with the resort buildings. If I am successful in this, the Phase 2 through 6 investors will benefit greatly as this will significantly increase the value of the overall resort. Without the mountain, the value of the Phase 2 through 6 investors' investment would be significantly less."



Perhaps what he is saying is that he will merge the entities together into one business venture to be sold off.


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## mbedle (May 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Perhaps what he is saying is that he will merge the entities together into one business venture to be sold off.



I think you are right. I think saying "contiguous mountain" throw me off.


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I think you are right. I think saying "contiguous mountain" throw me off.



Yeah I find it hard to believe that Vermont would sell the state land to JPR.  Especially considering the incredibly bad optics that would create with the whole EB-5 thing.


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## thetrailboss (May 25, 2017)

Work at Jay this summer:  

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_7b3151dc-bb97-5c08-841a-2241357f4ff1.html


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## Jcb890 (May 25, 2017)

I wonder if the Tram updates will allow it to operate when the wind gusts more than 20 MPH.


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## snoseek (May 25, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Work at Jay this summer:
> 
> http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_7b3151dc-bb97-5c08-841a-2241357f4ff1.html




Its all good but they could use some on mountain improvements asap imo


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## dlague (May 26, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Its all good but they could use some on mountain improvements asap imo


Yes they could and it also appears the dream of expansion often discussed will probably never happen.

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## fbrissette (May 26, 2017)

I wonder if they could make the West Bowl a backcountry zone.   

With some thinning (don't know how easy environmental permits would be for that), an access trail circling the West Bowl (part Long trail part below the long trail) and a collector trails back toward the resort (which would require some skinning) Jay peak could cater to this very rapidly growing population that would, hopefully bring additional business to the resort.

Otherwise, I agree that we won't see a lift in the West-Bowl in this lifetime.


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## Jcb890 (May 26, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> I wonder if they could make the West Bowl a backcountry zone.
> 
> With some thinning (don't know how easy environmental permits would be for that), an access trail circling the West Bowl (part Long trail part below the long trail) and a collector trails back toward the resort (which would require some skinning) Jay peak could cater to this very rapidly growing population that would, hopefully bring additional business to the resort.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree that we won't see a lift in the West-Bowl in this lifetime.


That's a pretty good idea actually!


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## ironhippy (May 26, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> I wonder if they could make the West Bowl a backcountry zone.
> 
> With some thinning (don't know how easy environmental permits would be for that), an access trail circling the West Bowl (part Long trail part below the long trail) and a collector trails back toward the resort (which would require some skinning) Jay peak could cater to this very rapidly growing population that would, hopefully bring additional business to the resort.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree that we won't see a lift in the West-Bowl in this lifetime.



I'd love to see more areas do stuff like this, especially out east where our true back country options are limited.


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *I wonder if they could make the West Bowl a backcountry zone. *



Not a chance.

Your human stench will...like...ummm.....contaminate the aura of the forest and be destructive to the fauna, man.


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## thetrailboss (May 26, 2017)

Considering all the money that was thrown at the place in the last ten years, and the complete lack of any significant upgrades on mountain, I find it unlikely that they will do anything big on the mountain.  Hell, Burke has seen more improvements on mountain during that time than Jay.  And yes I am not considering the Taxi Quad.


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## fbrissette (May 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not a chance.
> 
> Your human stench will...like...ummm.....contaminate the aura of the forest and be destructive to the fauna, man.




But I never shit nowhere near any Bicknell's thrush nesting area !


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## thetrailboss (May 26, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> But I never shit nowhere near any Bicknell's thrush nesting area !



:lol:

Was it bdfreetuna that wrote that epic Trip Report that featured an emergency dump in the woods?  I hope that he was not near any Bicknell Thrush.  If so, those poor birds died.


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## moresnow (May 26, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> :lol:
> 
> Was it bdfreetuna that wrote that epic Trip Report that featured an emergency dump in the woods?  I hope that he was not near any Bicknell Thrush.  If so, those poor birds died.


Wasn't it on the ridge?


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## chuckstah (May 26, 2017)

moresnow said:


> Wasn't it on the ridge?



yep
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...oss-story?highlight=gastrointestinal+disorder


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## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> *Was it bdfreetuna that wrote that epic Trip Report that featured an emergency dump in the woods? *



That is the most disgusting trip report ever written, and surpassing it will be no easy task.  

It's like Wayne Gretzky's career points record.  Technically it could one day be surpassed, but I just dont realistically see it happening.


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