# Anyone want to move to VT?



## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/vermont-pay-10-000-move-110056645.html

Vermont will pay you $10,000 to move there and work remotely


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

What do you think that says about the Vermont economy?


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

Heavily considering both Keene and Concord NH areas in the next 2-3 years.

I'd love to move to Brattleboro area just based on accessibility to my current area and places I like to ski. But I think NH is the superior state in terms of governance, freedoms and livability.

Main advantage to VT previously was very pro 2nd Amendment. But they passed some laws in April which now gives NH the clear lead in that area as well.


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## ShadyGrove (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Main advantage to VT previously was very pro 2nd Amendment. But they passed some laws in April which now gives NH the clear lead in that area as well.



So background checks, a 21 year old minimum purchase age, and bump stock bans are too onerous on you to move to Vermont?


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

having a debate about it with you is what I find too onerous atm


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> What do you think that says about the Vermont economy?



Really just part of their marketing. How much do states usually spend on marketing. They are spending 500k the next 2 years and 200k a year after that. not sure if that is a lot for a state or not. They say they need more young people.


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## mbedle (Jun 1, 2018)

Just spent an hour on the phone with my Mom discussing moving up there. So close to making that happen.


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## gregnye (Jun 1, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/vermont-pay-10-000-move-110056645.html
> 
> Vermont will pay you $10,000 to move there and work remotely




I wonder if there's any restriction regarding what town/county you have to move to. For example I know tons of people (including myself) who would love to move to Burlington, but few who would like to move to a place with nothing around (jay vt. for example).


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I wonder if there's any restriction regarding what town/county you have to move to. For example I know tons of people (including myself) who would love to move to Burlington, but few who would like to move to a place with nothing around (jay vt. for example).



I would be the other way. I wouldn't want to be in Burlington but would love to live in the middle of no where. Cities to me are nice to visit but wouldn't want to live in one even one as small as Burlington. Seeing they want you to be able to work remote then even better  -  I wouldn't have to commute anywhere.


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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2018)

This news isn't really a make it or break it thing for me, but it did peak my interest none the less. With kids on the way my wife and I are looking at options back East to be within driving distance. Not to close, but close enough. Specifically buying a small farm outright and running my business as well from there. 

I now own my own business, that I can run anywhere I want to put my workshop. I wonder what the restrictions on the program are, as in specific to working remotely. What about relocating a business there? If I can swing buying a place cash I could conceivably have enough free cash flow to hire a guy. 

Vermont is pretty anti-business in policy, but man, if it sure isn't gorgeous pretty much everywhere. Despite being pretty nanny state, the Vermont initiatives to keep it bucolic really pay dividends. You can't go anywhere in NH mountains without seeing 30 year old billboards for StoryLand every couple hundred yards. I'm willing to pay to live in basically an Ansel Adams photo or Normal Rockwell painting at all times.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

5% Normal Rockwell and 95% an extension of Upstate NY devastated economy. Could easily be the other way around.

Vermont is very, very lucky to be a prime skiing location. Still, the majority of their population suffers.

You can always open a liquor store or "dispensary"!


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## prsboogie (Jun 1, 2018)

Wouldn't move there simply because of the redeculous taxes. And that is coming from a flatlander from Mass. 





bdfreetuna said:


> Heavily considering both Keene and Concord NH areas in the next 2-3 years.
> 
> I'd love to move to Brattleboro area just based on accessibility to my current area and places I like to ski. But I think NH is the superior state in terms of governance, freedoms and livability.
> 
> Main advantage to VT previously was very pro 2nd Amendment. But they passed some laws in April which now gives NH the clear lead in that area as well.



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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

Yeah -- I figure if for some reason Southwest NH isn't an option, I'd rather stay in Franklin County MA than move across the line to VT. All things considered... the devil you know, etc.

Between Greenfield and Berkshire East is some pretty nice land with good accessibility to I-91 and Route 100.


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> 5% Normal Rockwell and 95% an extension of Upstate NY devastated economy. Could easily be the other way around.
> 
> Vermont is very, very lucky to be a prime skiing location. Still, the majority of their population suffers.
> 
> You can always open a liquor store or "dispensary"!



VT seems to have some interesting zoning and building codes. On any given road you'll see a trailer, a tar paper shack, another trailer with a beautiful 4 bedroom 3 bath 9k sq ft home right next to it, and then a house that has all sorts of weird additions.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2018)

I work remotely and live in NH mainly for family reasons, but I certainly appreciate the tax benefits.  No better state in the Northeast for working remotely.

I don't think the tax advantages are the big reason the NH economy is so much better than VT or ME.  The majority of the good jobs are either on the Seacoast or along the 3 and 93 corridors.  Proximity to Boston is the real story of the state's economic strength.  It's much easier to recruit recent grads from all the great schools to come an hour North to a lower cost of living place than it is to get them to move 2+ hours to ME or VT.  There's also a huge population of residents who commute to mass for high wages.  I think NH could raise their taxes (not that I want them to) to VT or ME levels and the economy in NH would still be far stronger than than those places.  As they say, location, location, location.......

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## Jully (Jun 1, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> Wouldn't move there simply because of the redeculous taxes. And that is coming from a flatlander from Mass.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk



I know nothing about tax rates, but I did find it funny that the article I read said Vermont had lower tax rates than NY. They are probably hoping to draw a lot from NY especially.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> VT seems to have some interesting zoning and building codes. On any given road you'll see a trailer, a tar paper shack, another trailer with a beautiful 4 bedroom 3 bath 9k sq ft home right next to it, and then a house that has all sorts of weird additions.



I'm expecting half of those tar paper shacks to be covered in gold leaf paper once marijuana legalization takes full effect up there.

Funny comment though, and true. Probably not so funny if you want to live and work there.


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## prsboogie (Jun 1, 2018)

http://tax.vermont.gov/individuals/income-tax-returns/individual-tax-rates


Jully said:


> I know nothing about tax rates, but I did find it funny that the article I read said Vermont had lower tax rates than NY. They are probably hoping to draw a lot from NY especially.



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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I work remotely and live in NH mainly for family reasons, but I certainly appreciate the tax benefits.  No better state in the Northeast for working remotely.
> 
> I don't think the tax advantages are the big reason the NH economy is so much better than VT or ME.  The majority of the good jobs are either on the Seacoast or along the 3 and 93 corridors.  Proximity to Boston is the real story of the state's economic strength.  It's much easier to recruit recent grads from all the great schools to come an hour North to a lower cost of living place than it is to get them to move 2+ hours to ME or VT.  There's also a huge population of residents who commute to mass for high wages.  I think NH could raise their taxes (not that I want them to) to VT or ME levels and the economy in NH would still be far stronger than than those places.  As they say, location, location, location.......
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah you step off the 93/95 corridors and NH and VT are pretty much the same economically. Seacoast NH really only blew up once it became a bedroom area for Boston. Then a couple companies move in and its off to the races. 

VT is at least two hours from any major economic center in the region, usually more. Tough to make most businesses work in those conditions.


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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> http://tax.vermont.gov/individuals/income-tax-returns/individual-tax-rates
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk



Man talk about a marriage penalty on those income taxes.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah you step off the 93/95 corridors and NH and VT are pretty much the same economically. Seacoast NH really only blew up once it became a bedroom area for Boston. Then a couple companies move in and its off to the races.
> 
> VT is at least two hours from any major economic center in the region, usually more. Tough to make most businesses work in those conditions.



Took a drive though Keene > Concord > Meredith/Laconia last weekend. I was actually surprised at how vital things appeared between Concord and Laconia. Understand we're talking about a state capital and a destination/biker/lake town, but it was pretty much all open businesses appearing to do well everywhere in between.

Drove through various Concord surrounding towns, such as Henniker, Bow, Hopkinton and towns on the other side too. Did not detect signs of delapidation that are common driving through VT. In fact it appeared to be a slow and steady state of improvement and slowly growing population.

NH may suffer from low population in a lot of areas, which is always a challenge. But I think the situation, on average, is noticeably different there from VT.


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Not exactly true. Took a drive though Keene > Concord > Meredith/Laconia last weekend. I was actually surprised at how vital things appeared between Concord and Laconia. Understand we're talking about a state capital and a destination/biker/lake town, but it was pretty much all open businesses appearing to do well everywhere in between.
> 
> Drove through various Concord surrounding towns, such as Henniker, Bow, Hopkinton and towns on the other side too. Did not detect signs of delapidation that are common driving through VT.
> 
> NH may suffer from low population in a lot of areas, which is always a challenge. But I think the situation, on average, is noticeably different there from VT.



All the towns you mention are still mostly in the 93 corridor. NH seems to hide its poverty better as well, off of main roads. Vt seems to have it on the main roads as well.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> All the towns you mention are still mostly in the 93 corridor. NH seems to hide its poverty better as well, off of main roads. Vt seems to have it on the main roads as well.



Well I agree, and thus edited out my "Not exactly true" opening sentence.

However, plainly stated, how people are doing in bumblefuck VT or bumblefuck NH doesn't make a lot of difference to me when considering a place to relocate family + business. The fact that NH actually has thriving regions and corridors is a stark contrast from Vermont, where really the only place I've seen that appears to be doing well is maybe Burlington and a couple small town centers in ski country.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2018)

Yeah, I wouldn't call Laconia a town that's doing well economically.  Far from it

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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Vermont is pretty anti-business in policy, but man, if it sure isn't gorgeous pretty much everywhere. Despite being pretty nanny state, the Vermont initiatives to keep it bucolic really pay dividends. You can't go anywhere in NH mountains without seeing 30 year old billboards for StoryLand every couple hundred yards. I'm willing to pay to live in basically an Ansel Adams photo or Normal Rockwell painting at all times.



Yes.


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## ShadyGrove (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm expecting half of those tar paper shacks to be covered in gold leaf paper once marijuana legalization takes full effect up there.



I wouldn't hold your breath on full legalization in the way that CO/WA/etc. have done it.  Come July VT is essentially decriminalizing possession of limited amounts and allowing some cultivation for personal use.   No dispensaries, no legal sales, no taxation, etc.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> 5% Normal Rockwell and 95% an extension of Upstate NY devastated economy. Could easily be the other way around.
> 
> Vermont is very, very lucky to be a prime skiing location. Still, the majority of their population suffers.
> 
> You can always open a liquor store or "dispensary"!



Very true.  A lot of people only drive the direct routes to and from the ski area or resort town.  Take a drive off the beaten path.  Go to Eden.  Go to Wheelock or Sheffield.  Go to Newport.  Hell, go to St. Jay or Rutland.  What do you see?  Appalachia.  A lot of poverty.  A lot of people down on their luck.  There is a lot of talk about the middle class disappearing and the rust belt.  A lot of people in Burlington conveniently forget about the rest of the state and the real picture.  It is bleak.  

The loss of manufacturing hurt Vermont a lot.  Before I came of age, a lot of folks in these areas graduated from high school and went to work for a local manufacturer.  Made decent money.  Bought a decent house.  Lived a middle-class life.  They went from farming to manufacturing.  They volunteered in their communities. There are a lot of manufacturers that served up this decent life for many that are gone: Marden Industries; Vermont Tap & Die (very sad); Fairbanks Scale (shadow of its former self); lots of Springfield, Vermont companies, etc.  Those folks all left (or have retired or died).  

This promotion is laughable.  We will pay you $10,000 over two years to BRING your job with you so that Vermont can reap the tax benefits and you can enjoy a higher cost of living with lower income potential.  

You also get to listen to protesters who are either trustafarians or don't care about money yell at you about how privileged you are and how you should pay more in taxes to help the poor, but don't want to see any new businesses come to Vermont.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't call Laconia a town that's doing well economically.  Far from it
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Compared to what though? Also kind of a hard town to evaluate, like Daytona Florida or other towns that blow up for Bike Week and then return to normal.

US-3, US-132 and US-106 up there (at least the parts I drove) seemed pretty darn prosperous considering their relatively remote locations. I mean, businesses all along the sides of the road and seemingly doing well.

Maybe I'm just used to Vermont and thus low expectations. Seems pretty clear to me that rural NH does better on average than VT, NY or Maine. Rural Massachusetts does alright for the most part and northwest MA is IMO one of the better places you can choose to live.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> NH may suffer from low population in a lot of areas, which is always a challenge. But I think the situation, on average, is noticeably different there from VT.



While Vermont lost a lot of its middle class employment in the form of manufacturing jobs, NH has maintained or grown its position as the leader in retail in New England due to taxation.  So a lot of folks are eeking out a very modest lifestyle by living in rural areas and working in retail stores.  Vermont managed to hurt its retail and see its manufacturing disappear.  Now it is only tourism really.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Compared to what though? Also kind of a hard town to evaluate, like Daytona Florida or other towns that blow up for Bike Week and then return to normal.
> 
> US-3, US-132 and US-106 up there (at least the parts I drove) seemed pretty darn prosperous considering their relatively remote locations. I mean, businesses all along the sides of the road and seemingly doing well.
> 
> Maybe I'm just used to Vermont and thus low expectations. Seems pretty clear to me that rural NH does better on average than VT, NY or Maine. Rural Massachusetts does alright for the most part.



Read my comment about retail.  The last time I was in Tilton/Laconia, it was a booming retail center.


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't call Laconia a town that's doing well economically.  Far from it
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



If you count the Heroin trade it is.


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## cdskier (Jun 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> This promotion is laughable.  We will pay you $10,000 over two years to BRING your job with you so that Vermont can reap the tax benefits and you can enjoy a higher cost of living



This is kind of my take on it. Is $5K for 2 years enough to offset the higher cost of living for those 2 years alone, never mind for the years beyond that? I'm quite sure my job wouldn't let me be full-time remote anyway, so this is a moot point for me.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2018)

Well, a good measure of a regions economic health  is how well is the hospital doing financially.  LRGH is struggling. Just closed their birthing unit. Very high percentage of the population in that area is on Medicaid due to poverty or Medicare as the average age is rising faster than other areas of the state.  

Downtown Barre VT seems to be doing well by just driving through too.  Not the case

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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

I've spent a fair amount of time chatting with Barre locals at various bars especially the old Fire Station that I usually gravitate towards when up there (whatever it's called now). Seems to be "OK" by Vermont standards, which isn't that good really. I mean I can get a decent room there for $70/night. It has a few bars, a few restaurants, a few motels. Gas stations.

By VT standards it's one of the more thriving towns but by any other standards, not very impressive.

What TrailBoss is saying Re: retail is my observation as well.

Also, heroin trade is sadly kind of a baseline equalizer for every region being discussed here. You just notice it more in places where there's less going on otherwise. Or downtown Brattleboro.


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## SkiRay (Jun 1, 2018)

Funny, as everyone I know has been sending CNN article to us!  We had been considering Maine...  Very coastal people - though I can see a life in VT very easily. They need more airports!  Or make it so Rutland Airport has more flights to it.  Burlington - well - we love that place..


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## bigbog (Jun 1, 2018)

$10,000 over two years.......WOW!:lol:


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## bigbog (Jun 1, 2018)

SkiRay said:


> Funny, as everyone I know has been sending CNN article to us!  We had been considering Maine...  Very coastal people - though I can see a life in VT very easily. They need more airports!  Or make it so Rutland Airport has more flights to it.  Burlington - well - we love that place..



A lot of beautiful areas, below and above Portland....along the coast...but requires some deep pockets. Great for the young crowd...who has had good parents with careers to help them get a start.  There's a LOT more nice territory to the state that's near the mountains than the coastal zone..but Maine isn't cheap, tax-wise.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

SkiRay said:


> Funny, as everyone I know has been sending CNN article to us!  We had been considering Maine...  Very coastal people - though I can see a life in VT very easily. They need more airports!  Or make it so Rutland Airport has more flights to it.  Burlington - well - we love that place..



Considering that folks are fighting the F35, and flights into and out of BTV are still much more expensive than MHT, I would not bet that there will be any increased air traffic anytime soon.  Southwest has been courted by BTV before, but the market isn't big enough for them...and everyone from Montpelier east drives to MHT as it is.


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## djd66 (Jun 1, 2018)

This incentive is a complete joke and i have no idea what the point is.  The have ear marked $125K/year - so that means 25 people can move there under this program.  WTF??  And that will do what?  I love to ski Vermont, but I cant stand the politics and taxes.  Income tax at 8.5% - yeah, sign me up.  In addition - under the new tax plan - high state income taxes are not deductible on your federal taxes.

If they want to encourage people to move there - they need to make it easier to run a business that employs people.  If there were well paying jobs and low taxes, people would flock there.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

djd66 said:


> This incentive is a complete joke and i have no idea what the point is.  The have ear marked $125K/year - so that means 25 people can move there under this program.  WTF??  And that will do what?  I love to ski Vermont, but I cant stand the politics and taxes.  Income tax at 8.5% - yeah, sign me up.  In addition - under the new tax plan - high state income taxes are not deductible on your federal taxes.
> 
> If they want to encourage people to move there - they need to make it easier to run a business that employs people.  If there were well paying jobs and low taxes, people would flock there.



Exactly.  But it is easier for Montpelier to throw some money at another program rather than make hard reforms.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 1, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I would be the other way. *I wouldn't want to be in Burlington but would love to live in the middle of no where*.



There's no way I'd move back to Vermont, as it's arguably even worse than New Jersey at this point, but I agree with the above.  I'd much rather live in a rural part of the state than moving back to Burlington, which IMO defeats the entire "purpose" of living in Vermont.  Many people waxing poetic about Burlington have only seen it through the eyes of a tourist, and believe me, it's not all fall days drinking an IPA on Church Street when you reside there.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> *What do you think that says about the Vermont economy?*



It's almost as if treating businesses like the enemy, punishing them at every turn, and calling them "evil", has a negative effect on income, jobs, and GDP.



thetrailboss said:


> *A lot of people in Burlington conveniently forget about the rest of the state and the real picture.  It is bleak.  *



Yup.

And it's far worse than that even, because, _"a lot of people in Burlington", _simultaneously act as if they're the self-righteous defenders of the impoverished, when in reality they're fully exacerbating the poverty while reveling in their MUCH higher standard of living & quality of life.


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## benski (Jun 1, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's almost as if treating businesses like the enemy, punishing them at every turn, and calling them "evil", has a negative effect on income, jobs, and GDP.



Most rural areas are struggling. VT is not that unusual. You should see rural New York.


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## benski (Jun 1, 2018)

And it's far worse than that even, because, _"a lot of people in Burlington", _simultaneously act as if they're the self-righteous defenders of the impoverished, when in reality they're fully exacerbating the poverty while reveling in their MUCH higher standard of living & quality of life.[/QUOTE]

We have been going down your road since Regan, and its quite clear that simultaneously the rich keep getting richer and the poor get none of it.


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## Glenn (Jun 1, 2018)

Interesting proposal by the sate. 

VT has an issue with younger people leaving the state. Even the smaller towns are seeing this as a concern going forward. 

It's somewhat of a dead horse in this thread, but the state has to adopt a more business friendly attitude if it wants to move things forward. We get the local paper from Bratt on the weekends and the opinion section is a real trip to read. I'll spare you the political details. 

VT is an interesting state. There are some aspects that lean one way, and others that lean another. My wife and I aren't close to retirement age at the moment. But if we were at this point, we'd most likely put our roots down east of the Connecticut River. VT's current climate and policies a pretty similar to what's going on in the flatlands. 

Here's the driving force behind the new regulation: 



> [FONT=&quot]"We have about 16,000 fewer workers than we did in 2009. That's why expanding our workforce is one of the top priorities of my administration," [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"





[/FONT]https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/31/vermont-will-pay-you-10000-to-move-there-and-work-from-home.html


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## gregnye (Jun 1, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Interesting proposal by the sate.
> 
> VT has an issue with younger people leaving the state. Even the smaller towns are seeing this as a concern going forward.



I feel like most states have this issue though. Contrary to what most old people think in this country, the young people don't just hang out in rural areas with no job waiting for handouts from the government. Most are forced to the cities for jobs, and share small apartments.

City life really has everything young people want. It has jobs, places to shop, people to hangout with and date. The dating in particular is a huge issue. No longer do people fall in love with their highschool crush and share a house in the suburbs for eternity. Now, it's acceptable to casually hookup, and thats easier in the cities.


For these reasons, most younger people (like myself) are only considering cities close to nature. Denver Colorado, for instance is both a vibrant city that also has outdoorsy stuff not very far away. When you consider how long the drive is from Boston to Vermont, and the fact that you have to drive past most of NH to get there, its no wonder no one is living there anymore.


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd much rather live in a rural part of the state than moving back to Burlington, which IMO defeats the entire "purpose" of living in Vermont.  Many people waxing poetic about Burlington have only seen it through the eyes of a tourist, and believe me, it's not all fall days drinking an IPA on Church Street when you reside there.



I assume it's similar to my life in Northampton MA for the last decade + . Plusses and minuses, easy to get caught up in a depressing kind of scene, but also possible to make the most of the conveniences and find a nice spot on the edge of town.


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## abc (Jun 1, 2018)

gregnye said:


> and the fact that you have to drive past most of NH to get there, its no wonder no one is living there anymore.


Not if you're coming from New York!

And what's the population of the New York tri-state area compare to the population of greater Boston?


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## drjeff (Jun 1, 2018)

The VT GDP is roughly 30 Billion a year. The state has significant annual budgetary issues. The state is looking at the federal government wanting to bring their F-35 jet base to Burlington with an estimated 3 Billion added to the VT economy from both direct and indirect jobs and investment. The Burlington residents are balking, even though there's already a fighter jet wing based in Burlington as well as regular commercial jet traffic and noise at the airport. Most states these days would jump at the chance to see a quick increase in their GDP of almost 7%... Not VT. 

VT isn't a tax or business friendly state in it's current operations. This 10k teaser, is just that, a teaser. Until VT rethinks it's business climate, it will continue to be a state where a large amount of wealth is concentrated in small geographic regions with significant populations of wealthy second home owners, and the vast majority of the state in poor economic status with mainly seasonal and not much above minimum wage service industry jobs

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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's no way I'd move back to Vermont, as it's arguably even worse than New Jersey at this point, but I agree with the above.  I'd much rather live in a rural part of the state than moving back to Burlington, which IMO defeats the entire "purpose" of living in Vermont.  Many people waxing poetic about Burlington have only seen it through the eyes of a tourist, and believe me, it's not all fall days drinking an IPA on Church Street when you reside there.


To each their own, but I spent about 4 years in Burlington. 2 of my 4 years while at UVM (other 2 living in Stowe while in school) and 2 years moving back there in my late 20s.  I personally loved it. Great restaurants and music scene, packed event schedule, the lake and the access to the mountains.  Loved being right downtown and walking to every place I needed to go.


But, I was working middle management in the hotel industry at the time and my salary didn't go far enough to buy a home and most of the rentals in town were garbage. Moved to Portland, ME from there which had better pay and better housing for less money.  

I'm part of the statistic of young people (well formerly young) who left VT for gr$$ner pastures.

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## mister moose (Jun 1, 2018)

benski said:


> BenedictGomez said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So high taxes causing flight of capital, jobs and industry is better?  Companies bring jobs at market wages.  There is no added feel good hand-out.  Companies leave when you levy the feel good hand-out tax.  _Then it is worse for the jobless_.

Vermont needs to incentivize companies to come to their state.  Show them how they will make money in VT.  Create the [profitable] climate.  Which is pretty tough if you hate big bad business, but this is the kind of climate change Vermont really needs.


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## 56fish (Jun 2, 2018)

Relocated two small seasonal businesses here from Pa couple years ago .... desire to be here only incentive I needed

Beauty serenity, wealth are in the eye of the beholder ..... I’ll take the Kingdom.

How many Vt plates do you see in Ma or Nh, maybe to spend a couple bucks and, get the heck back

:beer:


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## abc (Jun 2, 2018)

> How many Vt plates do you see in Ma or Nh


How many Vt plates do you see ANYWHERE???

Either VT is heaven on eart and residents move in and never leave. Or its residents are too poor to go anywhere?


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## mbedle (Jun 2, 2018)

Just out of stupidity, why is the overall consensus that Vermont is one of the worst states to live or work in? Based on what I've read, the overall tax burden (gas, sales, income, property, etc.) appear to be high, but not to far outside the range we see in New England. Take it with a grain of salt, but it looks like Maine and New York have a higher burden of overall taxes on its residence. As far as state financials, they are rank pretty low, but Massachusetts and New Jersey look to be even worst. Just wonder, since I am looking to move there for retirement.


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## abc (Jun 2, 2018)

Good question. 

And is tax the only thing? I thought it makes more sense to look at cost of living. What about property price vs properly tax? Which has a bigger impact on overall cosy of living?


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## Glenn (Jun 2, 2018)

Re: VT Plates

Take a look at the Hinsdale, NH Super Walmart on a weekend. There are a lot of green plates in that lot! Is subtle irony because VT towns often fight tooth and nail to keep big box stores out. Heck, people practically did cartwheels in the street when Home Depot left Bratt. I never understood cheer leading job loss. 

Is VT the worse place to live or retire? 

I suppose that depends. It's often easy to look at these situations from a purely financial point of view. But certainly, that's not 100% of the story. We spend a lot of weekends there and enjoy it quite a bit. We are physically close to NH, so when the time comes, retiring there would be plausible without much disruption to our routine. 

I will say, the "close proximity to Boston and NY" is a bit of a stretch. It's quite a haul no matter how you slice it. Doable for a meeting here or there, but certainly not if you have to be in either city somewhat frequently.


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## ss20 (Jun 2, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Take a look at the Hinsdale, NH Super Walmart on a weekend. There are a lot of green plates in that lot! Is subtle irony because VT towns often fight tooth and nail to keep big box stores out. Heck, people practically did cartwheels in the street when Home Depot left Bratt. I never understood cheer leading job loss.



I never understood why VT'ers try to keep chains out of the state.  Sure local shops are great...but you pay for it with generally higher prices and less selection.  On my trip to Mad River/Sugarbush this year I had a really hard time finding low-cost food.  I think I got dirt cheap chinese food twice and some mexican place that was reasonable.  But other than that everything I looked at seemed to be geared towards tourists looking to burn $$$.

That's why I like Ludlow.  Quaint enough to "look" like you're in Vermont, but built enough you have some reasonable options for necessities like the Shaw's, a couple gas stations, and a Dunkin Donuts when you need a coffee fix but aren't looking to spend $$$.


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I never understood why VT'ers try to keep chains out of the state.  Sure local shops are great...but you pay for it with generally higher prices and less selection.  On my trip to Mad River/Sugarbush this year I had a really hard time finding low-cost food.  I think I got dirt cheap chinese food twice and some mexican place that was reasonable.  But other than that everything I looked at seemed to be geared towards tourists looking to burn $$$.
> 
> That's why I like Ludlow.  Quaint enough to "look" like you're in Vermont, but built enough you have some reasonable options for necessities like the Shaw's, a couple gas stations, and a Dunkin Donuts when you need a coffee fix but aren't looking to spend $$$.



How do you define "low-cost food"? The Thai food place by Sugarbush is an incredible steal for cheap (and delicious) food.

There's also several gas stations in the MRV with cheap coffee. There's also a Shaw's. So the only thing Ludlow has from your list that the MRV doesn't is a Dunkin Donuts (which I'm content to not have).


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2018)

Personal choice to support small independent businesses. I personally love the fact that much of VT hasn't been homogenized like most every where else in America.  It's one of the things that I love about my town in NH. Outside of an Irving Station, Rite Aid, Abuchon and an Aroma Joe's we have zero chains here.  Used to have a McDonald's and a Subway, but both closed due to lack of business.  But all the locally owned and operated restaurants are thriving.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 2, 2018)

abc said:


> *How many Vt plates do you see ANYWHERE???*
> *
> Either VT is heaven on eart and residents move in and never leave. Or its residents are too poor to go anywhere?*



I say this all the time. Vermonters dont go anywhere.  I dont necessarily know if it's a money thing, but that certainly could contribute to it.  I joke with my fiance's family that Vermonters are not permitted to leave the state.  What's really shocking to me is how northern Vermoners never go to Montreal.  It's not uncommon to meet people 50 years old who've never been to Montreal, while growing up & living 1 hour from Montreal.  That always completely blew my mind.



mbedle said:


> *As far as state financials, they are rank pretty low, but Massachusetts and New Jersey look to be even worst. Just wonder, since I am looking to move there for retirement.*



Well, nobody is knocking down the door to retire to Massachusetts or New Jersey either, so that should tell you something.

But financially speaking, Vermont has to be one of the worst states to choose for retirement, unless you're rich and thus money doesnt matter.  Essentially everything is taxed highly there, there's a state income tax, and Vermont even taxes Social Security benefits (making them 1 of only about 10 states that do so).  The net effect is that the cost-of-living has skyrocketed in Vermont over the last 20 years.  The C.O.L. in Vermont is approximately the same as the C.O.L. in New Jersey, a fact few people know, and that I believe would shock the hell out of them if they did.  My perception is that many Vermonters are blissfully unaware of how expensive their state has become.

https://www.uslearning.net/cost-of-living-by-state.html


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2018)

abc said:


> How many Vt plates do you see ANYWHERE???
> 
> Either VT is heaven on eart and residents move in and never leave. Or its residents are too poor to go anywhere?



Considering that my county in NJ has more people than the entire state of VT combined, I actually feel like I see quite a few VT plates outside of VT relatively speaking. I just saw one today on the NJ Turnpike about 20 minutes ago in fact.


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## Zand (Jun 2, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Re: VT Plates
> 
> Take a look at the Hinsdale, NH Super Walmart on a weekend. There are a lot of green plates in that lot! Is subtle irony because VT towns often fight tooth and nail to keep big box stores out. Heck, people practically did cartwheels in the street when Home Depot left Bratt. I never understood cheer leading job loss.
> 
> ...



This. Same thing 120 miles up the river. Go to Littleton Walmart on the weekend and it's 75% Vermont plates. St J fought tooth and nail to keep Walmart out 20 years ago because it would hurt local businesses. Spend a day in downtown Littleton and a day in downtown St J and tell me how that's working for them.


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## 56fish (Jun 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Considering that my county in NJ has more people than the entire state of VT combined, I actually feel like I see quite a few VT plates outside of VT relatively speaking. I just saw one today on the NJ Turnpike about 20 minutes ago in fact.



c jersey plates everyday, and, i’m 8 miles from can border


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## cdskier (Jun 2, 2018)

56fish said:


> c jersey plates everyday, and, i’m 8 miles from can border



I'm not surprised...no one wants to stay in NJ for too long :grin:


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## VTKilarney (Jun 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Considering that my county in NJ has more people than the entire state of VT combined, I actually feel like I see quite a few VT plates outside of VT relatively speaking. I just saw one today on the NJ Turnpike about 20 minutes ago in fact.



Almost all of those people are transplanted flatlanders who are returning home for a couple of days.  

I definitely agree that Vermonters aren’t travelers - unless you count Old Orchard Beach.  We’ve had many people think that we are stupid for traveling to Europe and Asia.  Florida is exotic to these people.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2018)

When I lived on Cape Cod, I found a lot of the residents there didn't like to travel.  I met more than a couple of older people who had never even crossed the bridge, which completely blew my mind

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Jun 2, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> When I lived on Cape Cod, I found a lot of the residents there didn't like to travel.  I met more than a couple of older people who had never even crossed the bridge, which completely blew my mind



I would never move to the Cape just based on inconvenience factor of going anywhere else. Know some folks out there and it's kind of a low miles E46 M3 scene. Snow is horrible anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2018)

Yeah, I did two six month swings at 20&21. Summer seasons on the Cape, Winters in Stowe.  It was fun at the time, but I agree on the inconvenience part.  Not a place I could live full time.  

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## Edd (Jun 2, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, I did two six month swings at 20&21. Summer seasons on the Cape, Winters in Stowe.  It was fun at the time, but I agree on the inconvenience part.  Not a place I could live full time.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Nicely done on choosing seasonal towns. Wish I’d done something like that.


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## abc (Jun 2, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> I would never move to the Cape just based on inconvenience factor of going anywhere else. Know some folks out there and it's kind of a low miles E46 M3 scene. *Snow is horrible anyway*.


Surfing in VT is pretty horrible too.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2018)

Edd said:


> Nicely done on choosing seasonal towns. Wish I’d done something like that.


Only regret was one of the winters wasn't spent out west.  Never had that out West ski bum season.  Realistically it would have had to have been the first one of the two. The second season I was taking classes part time at UVM to get back into school.

My "band" strongly considered going out West the first season.  I was way into playing the guitar at the time and the other five guys in the ski house were all musicians and we had a bit of a garage band.  Come August of 95 with the Cape season about to wind down, we started talking about where to go for the winter. We were thinking out West, but realized it would be difficult to figure out how to get a house in Colorado.  None of us had ever been to Stowe, but I had always read how great the skiing was.  So, I suggested we all take a trip up there for a couple of days to see what it was all about. It was a beautiful couple of days in August. We ate some shrooms, hiked to the peak of Mansfield and fell in love. 

 Next day we met with a realtor and signed a six month lease on this 4 bedroom 70s A-frame.  We paid in full for six months, $1200 each. Because we paid in full for the season, we all were a bunch of degenerates and only worked enough to pay to eat and party.  We took jobs at the mountain to start the season for season passes. Quit after the holidays and worked various other jobs in town throughout the winter. Back then, there was no ski pass tracking technology, so once you got a pass you were good for the year.  Counterfeit passes were big business in the local college dorms at that time for this very reason.  Computer nerds would sell them for $100.   

 The house had a HUGE living room, 3 tiny bedrooms and 1 large bedroom/family room in the basement.  That became our jam room.  

Very shortly after arriving in town we started making connections.  Word got out quickly that the A frame on Weeks Hill Road was the place to party.  The drummer started dating this server at the Shed Brewery.  She'd bring us employee rate kegs almost every night. It was $30 for a five gallon or $65 for a half keg.  Literally every night of that winter there was a keg of some sort at the house. I drank so much Mountain Ale I couldn't stomach the stuff for over a decade after that season.  

Total debauchery almost every night with people coming over to party and jam music. Drink until 3-4AM, wake up to go skiing around 9 to a half dozen random people passed out on the living room floor. Ski until mid afternoon and then go wash dishes, cook pizza or whatever at night. Rinse, wash, repeat all season long.  Saint Patrick's day was kind of the culmination of the season.  We hosted a big blowout.  An invite poster was put up in the kitchen at the Shed. Someone decided to post it up in the actual bar.  Something like 300 people showed up. Went through a dozen + kegs of Mountain Ale.  There were all sorts of random dudes in their 40s and 50s who were on vacation and just showed up.

I still regularly see people in town when I visit who used to hang at the A Frame back in the day.   Place was legendary and still talked about as the greatest ski bum house in town memory. 

Wouldn't want to repeat it, but it was an incredible time.  Could write a cheesy ski bum movie based upon that winter. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'm not surprised...no one wants to stay in NJ for too long :grin:



New Jersey is positively beautiful, it's the politicians who have destroyed the place and made it unlivable & intolerable.


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## 56fish (Jun 3, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> New Jersey is positively beautiful, it's the politicians who have destroyed the place and made it unlivable & intolerable.



Variety of scenery .... w/o doubt.  :beer:


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## 56fish (Jun 3, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Just out of stupidity, why is the overall consensus that Vermont is one of the worst states to live or work in? Based on what I've read, the overall tax burden (gas, sales, income, property, etc.) appear to be high, but not to far outside the range we see in New England. Take it with a grain of salt, but it looks like Maine and New York have a higher burden of overall taxes on its residence. As far as state financials, they are rank pretty low, but Massachusetts and New Jersey look to be even worst. Just wonder, since I am looking to move there for retirement.



Cost of living is what u make it. Bout the same in rural Pa where I was as rural Vt where I am.


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## Jcb890 (Jun 3, 2018)

My brother sent this link/info to me as well... $10,000 is a joke.

A better question might be - how much money would it take for you to move to VT?


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## SkiFanE (Jun 3, 2018)

56fish said:


> Cost of living is what u make it. Bout the same in rural Pa where I was as rural Vt where I am.


Maybe since I've lived my life in MA - just used to whatever I pay in taxes. Great schools and always easy to find jobs (for us at least). Tax burden is not going to factor into my retirement plans. Just not the most important thing. After a life of working, I want to live where I'm happy. Some people can't be happy knowing they aren't in the cheapest place they can be (lol) but that's not me. Hence - you will NEVER see me live in FL. Looking like ME - but also depends on where kids settle - I'm not stuck in an area if it means being far from kids (and hopefully grandkids).


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## mister moose (Jun 3, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> New Jersey is positively beautiful, it's the politicians who have destroyed the place and made it unlivable & intolerable.





56fish said:


> Variety of scenery .... w/o doubt.  :beer:



I've seen a little of New Jersey, from Cape May to Sandy Hook, from Atlantic City to Princeton, and from Trenton to Boonton.  The hills of Sparta.  Morristown, Caldwell, the Throughway and the Turnpike.  I have to say though, when someone says New Jersey, I think of 2 things - smokestack Newark and 27 lane highways.


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## abc (Jun 3, 2018)

SkiFanE said:


> Some people can't be happy knowing they aren't in the cheapest place they can be (lol) but that's not me. Hence - you will NEVER see me live in FL.


Acccording to that link, cost of living isn’t that low in Florida either. Maybe you’ll rethink Florida?


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## abc (Jun 3, 2018)

56fish said:


> Cost of living is what u make it. Bout the same in rural Pa where I was as rural Vt where I am.


Quite. 

Live in a smaller house, the property tax will be less. Spend less, you need less income to live on — pay less income taxSo on and so forth...

On a different note, retirees have a distinctly different spending pattern than middle age working population. So I’m not sure the COL rankings are that applicable. (Though for this thread, it does). 

While I won’t be moving to VT any time soon (or EVER, I’d move to Montana first), I see more behind that “hair-brain scheme”. Basically VT wants to be a tourist state, only they want you to stay longer. Much longer. Full time! So, no factory, no pollution. No business either. Leave your business out of state too, just LIVE in VT. 

For many of the New York & New Jersey people who are considering a second home in VT, can’t you just “move” your primary address to VT for 2 year and pocket that $10k? Is there look back if your “circumstance change” and need to “move out” (your primary residence) after 2 years? In other words, do you have to pay back the $10k, or you get to keep it?


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## cdskier (Jun 3, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> New Jersey is positively beautiful, it's the politicians who have destroyed the place and made it unlivable & intolerable.





56fish said:


> Variety of scenery .... w/o doubt.  :beer:





mister moose said:


> I've seen a little of New Jersey, from Cape May to Sandy Hook, from Atlantic City to Princeton, and from Trenton to Boonton.  The hills of Sparta.  Morristown, Caldwell, the Throughway and the Turnpike.  I have to say though, when someone says New Jersey, I think of 2 things - smokestack Newark and 27 lane highways.



I've lived in NJ most of my life and visited most areas of the state and the words "positively beautiful" would never pop into my head as one of the top 10 things to say about NJ. There's no denying there are many beautiful spots (even in the middle of a city like Paterson you have the Great Falls which are pretty stunning). Overall though, there are far too many large sections of the state that are way too congested, crowded, over-developed, etc to call the state as a whole "beautiful". Even just in the northeast I'm not sure if I would put NJ in the top 5 states in terms of beauty (VT, ME, NH, and NY are definitely ahead of it...haven't seen quite enough of MA, CT, or RI to know whether they would be ahead of NJ as well).


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## slatham (Jun 3, 2018)

abc said:


> Acccording to that link, cost of living isn’t that low in Florida either. Maybe you’ll rethink Florida?



But there is no state income tax in Florida. Bit different in VT! I actually hope to move to VT in a few years, and hopefully work remotely, and I will gladly take any VT provided cash to help in the process!


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## benski (Jun 3, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> New Jersey is positively beautiful, it's the politicians who have destroyed the place and made it unlivable & intolerable.



You are insane. Do you find giant malls and big box stores, with giant parking lots connecting by wide, porthole laden highways with rustling overpasses attractive or something.


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## x10003q (Jun 3, 2018)

abc said:


> Acccording to that link, cost of living isn’t that low in Florida either. Maybe you’ll rethink Florida?



Really?
2017 Vermont   120.7
2017 Florida      100.4
That is a big difference. 

FYI - 2017 NJ            121.2 - a rounding error larger than VT

Don't get sick in VT , either. 
No income tax in FL
Lower property taxes in Florida


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## abc (Jun 3, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Really?
> 2017 Vermont   120.7
> 2017 Florida      100.4


Yes, really. 

Florida is about the same as Pennsylvania! Or Colorado, Delaware, Virginia! 

Not to mention, higher than Utah!!!


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

I don't quite understand the value in looking at a COL comparison by state. If the values account for housing (which that website says it does), then looking at the "state" level is too broad in my opinion. Even in a state with a higher COL, there are still places within that state that are cheaper (the COL for NYC is vastly different than the COL for living in pretty much anywhere else in the state). At the state level, NY is higher than NJ on that list for example, yet I know people that moved to Orange county NY because housing was more affordable than where they wanted to be in Bergen county NJ. You need to compare local data for your specific scenario.

Also keep in mind that on that list a score of "100" is the baseline for the national average. To put it another way, Florida is basically at the national average while VT is 20% above average and Utah is 6% below average (although again I see little point in taking these numbers as gospel anyway).


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## tumbler (Jun 4, 2018)

The seasonal economy and employment is a difficult hurdle to get over.  The ski areas create a significant amount of jobs from Dec-March but then what are you supposed to do for work?  There are only so many landscaping and food service jobs out there.  I think there is also the lack of motivation to work.  Some people are happy with what they have and where they are.  It's all relative.


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## Jcb890 (Jun 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Really?
> 2017 Vermont   120.7
> 2017 Florida      100.4
> That is a big difference.
> ...



I'd love to see the link with the full list of states.  Did I miss it earlier in the thread?


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## djd66 (Jun 4, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> I'd love to see the link with the full list of states.  Did I miss it earlier in the thread?



Back on page 6: https://www.uslearning.net/cost-of-living-by-state.html


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## Hawk (Jun 4, 2018)

Perception, Perception.  It amazes me how vastly different people feel about where they live and other places to live.   Some have strong opinions about places that they only visit on occasion.  I personally think that all of the states up here in the North East are beautiful and there are places in each that I would love to live.  I am basically blessed where I live now which is where I always lived my entire life.  5 miles from my birthplace.  It an ocean side community north of Boston but has large rural areas all around.  I would not live anywhere else.

But my second love is VT and I spend probably 1/4 of my time each year up there on average.  There is no doubt, the taxes are extremely high as a second home owner in Warren VT.  We get killed and there seems to be no relief in site.  But even with that we really love it up there.  It is the sense of community, the hard working positive people, the belief that any issue can be conquered by joining together.  My wife and I have been up there for about 18 years now and are firmly entrenched in the community.  It's the really kind and engaging people on top of the rural beauty that make us want to move.  It's what most people move there for in the first place.  It is not something that you would understand by working the bargain tickets and being up there a few times a year.  You have to join in and become part of it to understand.  It is certainly special.  Now we are part of the ski community, the mountain bike and road bike community and also the music community and we spend time with these people doing all kinds of other things.


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> New Jersey is positively beautiful



Where?!?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

Hawk said:


> It is the sense of community, the hard working positive people, the belief that any issue can be conquered by joining together.  My wife and I have been up there for about 18 years now and are firmly entrenched in the community.  It's the really kind and engaging people on top of the rural beauty that make us want to move.  It's what most people move there for in the first place.  It is not something that you would understand by working the bargain tickets and being up there a few times a year.  You have to join in and become part of it to understand.  It is certainly special.  Now we are part of the ski community, the mountain bike and road bike community and also the music community and we spend time with these people doing all kinds of other things.



This is what I miss most.  But I will say that in a lot of places this was disappearing due to a lot of people who valued this community spirit and created it leaving.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

mister moose said:


> I've seen a little of New Jersey, from Cape May to Sandy Hook, from Atlantic City to Princeton, and from Trenton to Boonton.  The hills of Sparta.  Morristown, Caldwell, the Throughway and the Turnpike.  I have to say though,* when someone says New Jersey, I think of 2 things - smokestack Newark and 27 lane highways*.



Everyone does***.  For those of us living in the rural parts of the state, what's fine with us!  Keep them thinking that way.



benski said:


> *You are insane. Do you find giant malls and big box stores, with giant parking lots connecting by wide, porthole laden highways with rustling overpasses attractive* or something.





ThinkSnow said:


> Where?!?



***Here's just two examples! lol


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Everyone does***.  For those of us living in the rural parts of the state, what's fine with us!  Keep them thinking that way.
> 
> *Here's just two examples! lol



I lived in NJ for a number of years.  Can you describe these so-called "rural areas"?


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> *I don't quite understand the value in looking at a COL comparison by state.*....... Even in a state with a higher COL, *there are still places within that state that are cheaper*



You can easily look at C.O.L. by city and region too if you like, the B.L.S. captures that data as well.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> *I lived in NJ for a number of years.*  Can you describe these so-called "rural areas"?



Where did you live that you would be incapable of answering that question yourself?  I'm going to guess within 35 minutes of the city.

Sussex County, Warren County, Hunterdon County, big chunks of interior South Jersey, are all rural.  There are parts of north Jersey that are as much of more "rural" than much of Vermont.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 4, 2018)

just a thought about taxes, COL and business friendly "attitude" as it relates to population growth.  I think we can all agree that NYC is pretty far down on the list in all those areas.  For many years these factors were cited as the cause of the population flight to the suburbs to the detriment of the city itself.  However, NYC is now experiencing incredible growth.  I believe I saw a statistic that in the last decade NYC has added more residents than the entire population of Boston or san francisco.  There is no argument, NYC is booming and not just Manhattan, but Brooklyn, Queens and the bronx as well.  neither taxes nor col have gone down.  So, I think its fair to say there is more to why people want to live in a given place, than taxes, col and business attitude.  without venturing into the reasons, it appears young people want to live and work in walkable communities.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

News sources loves numbers. Because they don't have to do any real reporting, just grab a set of census numbers and paint whatever picture they want.

NYC actually has a thriving retiree scene. Shocking? Yep! Because when your eyesight and reflex fails and can't drive safely any more, a city that is 100% served by public transport (bus/subway) is VERY desirable! Granted, you have to be able to afford it. And not surprisingly, your 1/2 million house in the suburb only buys you a studio in Brooklyn! On the other hand, how much space do you REALLY need? Perhaps a small apartment with elevator is exactly what you want after all? 

Food is surprisingly inexpensive in NYC. Take away the expenditure of car payment, gas money, lawn care, snow shovel, you may JUST find you can swing a small place in an easily accessible city with top notch hospitals. 

To each their own. The "ranking" assumes you want what others want (keeping up with the jones' anyone?). It never fail to account for individual taste and requirements.


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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2018)

abc said:


> Yes, really.
> 
> Florida is about the same as Pennsylvania! Or Colorado, Delaware, Virginia!
> 
> Not to mention, higher than Utah!!!



The thread is about moving to Vermont, possibly for retirement. I guess you missed those comments.

There are plenty of places in the 4 states you mention and many other states that are as affordable as Florida. Florida happens to have weather that many people find appealing along with affordable homes with easy access to beaches that can be used year around. People choosing to retire in VT are a fraction of people choosing to retire in Florida. This is one more reason why Vermont is having financial difficulties.


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## Smellytele (Jun 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> The thread is about moving to Vermont, possibly for retirement. I guess you missed those comments.
> 
> There are plenty of places in the 4 states you mention and many other states that are as affordable as Florida. Florida happens to have weather that many people find appealing along with affordable homes with easy access to beaches that can be used year around. People choosing to retire in VT are a fraction of people choosing to retire in Florida. This is one more reason why Vermont is having financial difficulties.



Retired people are not why they are having difficulties. Lack of Working age, tax paying people is the reason.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> The thread is about moving to Vermont, possibly for retirement. I guess you missed those comments.
> 
> There are plenty of places in the 4 states you mention and many other states that are as affordable as Florida. Florida happens to have weather that many people find appealing along with affordable homes with easy access to beaches that can be used year around. People choosing to retire in VT are a fraction of people choosing to retire in Florida. This is one more reason why Vermont is having financial difficulties.



Retired folks is not what Vermont needs.  And it is not at all what the program is for.


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## CoolMike (Jun 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> How do you define "low-cost food"? The Thai food place by Sugarbush is an incredible steal for cheap (and delicious) food.
> 
> There's also several gas stations in the MRV with cheap coffee. There's also a Shaw's. So the only thing Ludlow has from your list that the MRV doesn't is a Dunkin Donuts (which I'm content to not have).



Not to pick on you but I thought it was funny that you listed Shaw's in a remark about low-cost food!

I saved 80$ a week switching from Shaw's to Whole Foods!  Recently I've switched again from there to one of the nicer local Market Baskets for another 40-50$ per week savings.  This with a family of 4.  I was stunned how expensive Shaw's was - much more than even Whole Foods, let alone the other major and minor competitors.  PS - Whole Foods stinks too - why can't I buy some damn scotchbrite sponges and non-hippy flavored dish soap!?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> Not to pick on you but I thought it was funny that you listed Shaw's in a remark about low-cost food!
> 
> I saved 80$ a week switching from Shaw's to Whole Foods!  Recently I've switched again from there to one of the nicer local Market Baskets for another 40-50$ per week savings.  This with a family of 4.  I was stunned how expensive Shaw's was - much more than even Whole Foods, let alone the other major and minor competitors.  PS - Whole Foods stinks too - why can't I buy some damn scotchbrite sponges and non-hippy flavored dish soap!?



I always thought that Shaw's was expensive myself.


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> Not to pick on you but I thought it was funny that you listed Shaw's in a remark about low-cost food!



I used Shaw's because I was responding to ss20's post where he specifically mentioned Ludlow as having a Shaw's when he was citing that town as an example of having more "reasonable" options than the MRV. So I was merely pointing out that the MRV has the same thing. Personally I rarely shop there.


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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Retired folks is not what Vermont needs.  And it is not at all what the program is for.



Actually, retired folks with disposable income are exactly what Vermont needs. They add no kids to the schools, pay property taxes and increase the need for service jobs. If these retirees come from the Wash-Boston area, it is likely they have children/family that would be in driving distance. This would mean more money being spent in Vermont.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Actually, retired folks with disposable income are exactly what Vermont needs. They add no kids to the schools, pay property taxes and increase the need for service jobs. If these retirees come from the Wash-Boston area, it is likely they have children/family that would be in driving distance. This would mean more money being spent in Vermont.



Actually, no.  Retired folks have no income.  Thus, no income tax revenue.  And they do need services--lots of public services that cost taxpayer $$$.  It is a net loss.  And again this program is not to get retirees to come to Vermont because Vermont is already one of the states with the oldest demographic.


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## Domeskier (Jun 4, 2018)

abc said:


> Food is surprisingly inexpensive in NYC.



I can save about 30% on groceries by shopping in Jersey. Where are you eating?


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## Domeskier (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Actually, no.  Retired folks have no income.



While I agree that this program is not targeted at retirees, there are more forms of taxable income than remuneration for personal services.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Actually, retired folks with disposable income are exactly what Vermont needs. They add no kids to the schools, pay property taxes and increase the need for service jobs. If these retirees come from the Wash-Boston area, it is likely they have children/family that would be in driving distance. This would mean more money being spent in Vermont.



You are 120% DEAD WRONG. In fact what you just said is the exact problem this state has. Retirees contribute, yes, but not nearly on the level as young couples and families bringing jobs and their incomes/education. This state has a major education problem with folks who went through the public school systems, things need to change badly. You need better schools to educate these kids to be more than their struggling parents and go do something with their lives and add to that state instead of have a kid at 16-18 to jump on welfare early and live off the system.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> You are 120% DEAD WRONG. In fact what you just said is the exact problem this state has. Retirees contribute, yes, but not nearly on the level as young couples and families bringing jobs and their incomes/education. This state has a major education problem with folks who went through the public school systems, things need to change badly. You need better schools to educate these kids to be more than their struggling parents and go do something with their lives and add to that state instead of have a kid at 16-18 to jump on welfare early and live off the system.


VT is always top ten in the nation for primary and secondary education.  Usually top 5.  Schools aren't the problem.  Many of VT kids leave after school in search of better opportunity.  


https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> VT is always top ten in the nation for primary and secondary education.  Usually top 5.  Schools aren't the problem.  Many of VT kids leave after school in search of better opportunity.
> 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education



That makes sense and supports the argument that they have a lack of younger people in VT that would be paying income taxes.

Interesting that the top 6 states for K-12 education are all in the northeast.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> VT is always top ten in the nation for primary and secondary education.  Usually top 5.  Schools aren't the problem.  Many of VT kids leave after school in search of better opportunity.
> 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education
> ...


The second half of that is the problem, the well educated leave. Also the high end can drag those scores up, come check out some of these schools down here in Southern Vermont and talk to the kids, hear what the teacher are and are not teaching them, what their parents teach them, and I think you'll see how far behind they are compared to kids of the same age not just in America but more importantly worldwide. There are wide gaps, look at a Manchester with Burr and Burton which is a truly a wonderful school, then look at say Mount Anthony half an hour down the road, tis scary how big the divide is.

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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> I can save about 30% on groceries by shopping in Jersey. Where are you eating?


Street carts, Chinatown, Washington Height... depends on where my office is and where my commute takes me.

Of course I don't shop in the overpriced "supermarket"! The only thing "super" about them are their prices! (although WholeFood's sale items are surprisingly competitive in price, and similarly at Trader Joe's and Fairway for some specialty item not found on other places)

Shop in ethnic or minority run shops or better yet, street carts man by Egyptians or Haitians. Food and grocery are often fresher and reasonably priced.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> I can save about 30% on groceries by shopping in Jersey. Where are you eating?



Agreed; when I lived in the city I'd bring as much as my groceries in from Jersey as possible.  

When Fresh Direct started, I found that cheaper than shopping in the stores in Manhattan as well.  I imagine it would be the same now with Jet.com.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> The second half of that is the problem, the well educated leave. Also the high end can drag those scores up, come check out some of these schools down here in Southern Vermont and talk to the kids, hear what the teacher are and are not teaching them, what their parents teach them, and I think you'll see how far behind they are compared to kids of the same age not just in America but more importantly worldwide. There are wide gaps, look at a Manchester with Burr and Burton which is a truly a wonderful school, then look at say Mount Anthony half an hour down the road, tis scary how big the divide is.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


This is reality in every state in the country.  All states have good districts and bad districts, but the point is overall VT is doing well.   VT at least is trying to address some of the inequality in primary and secondary school education with Act 60.  

 It's the lack of jobs driving young people to leave that is the problem.  You can throw all the money you want at public education, but that will do little to change things.  I had many friends while at UVM who were from the Brattleboro and Bellows Falls areas.  BF high school isn't a great school.  These kids managed well enough, got a college degree and left the state for greener pastures. All doing well in professional careers that simply do not exist in VT in any great numbers or compensation.  Hell, that's why I personally left.

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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Actually, no.  Retired folks have no income.  Thus, no income tax revenue.



Nope.
*"Vermont taxes* all forms *of* retirement *income* at rates ranging from 3.55% to 8.95%. This includes Social Security retirement benefits and *income* from retirement accounts."

https://smartasset.com/retirement/vermont-retirement-taxes

They would also pay property taxes.



thetrailboss said:


> And they do need services--lots of public services that cost taxpayer $$$.  It is a net loss.  And again this program is not to get retirees to come to Vermont because Vermont is already one of the states with the oldest demographic.



In NJ, every town is trying to add senior housing - they pay the same property taxes without adding any kids to the school system. The biggest part of every NJ property tax bill (up to 65%) is the school system. Kids in NJ can cost as much as $35k per year for K-12 (NJ avg about $21K). There are no seniors costing a town $21k/year. I doubt there are any seniors that cost the town what they pay in property taxes.

It might be smart for Vermont to figure out how to entice some of the people who live in the metro areas and love coming to Vermont on weekends and on vacations to retire in Vermont with their metro area retirement savings.


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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> This is reality in every state in the country.  All states have good districts and bad districts, but the point is overall VT is doing well.   VT at least is trying to address some of the inequality in primary and secondary school education with Act 60.
> 
> It's the lack of jobs driving young people to leave that is the problem.  You can throw all the money you want at public education, but that will do little to change things.  I had many friends while at UVM who were from the Brattleboro and Bellows Falls areas.  BF high school isn't a great school.  These kids managed well enough, got a college degree and left the state for greener pastures. All doing well in professional careers that simply do not exist in VT in any great numbers or compensation.  Hell, that's why I personally left.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Vermont is overall not doing well, I live here now and I see it first hand every single day. The bottom half here is on par if not worse than what you see in places like Arkansas, I know, I've also seen that first hand. It is silly to even have this argument when it is so obvious how serious the problems are here and a major part of that is people who don't live here and used to or have a vacation home here that say oh Vermont is so great, yeah Burlington and Chittenden County are doing well, that's great for them, but the bottom of the State has been deemed an economic disaster area by the Fed, jobs are scarce, folks with a good education are leaving in droves and many many people are leaving to get an education elsewhere. Come on up and put your kid in the public schools of some of these lower end towns like a Brattleboro, Bennington, Rutland. 

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## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2018)

The argument that you made was that education is a big problem in need of investment.  

I don't make up the numbers and rankings.  Those all point to VT doing a great job comparatively to most of the rest of the country.  Even the "bad" school districts like Mt Anthony do pretty good compared to the National average on measures like Reading and Math proficiency, SAT scores etc. As mentioned those communities receive extra state funding through Act 60 to help level the playing field.   So, it's not entirely true that the state performance on education is being heavily skewed by top performing districts.  



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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

Keep in mind that little, poor Vermont has the 5th highest per pupil spending rate in the country.  Our education taxes are in the stratosphere.  And yet I pay private school tuition on top of those taxes, as anyone in my town who can afford to does.  

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html


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## Hawk (Jun 5, 2018)

Hey I don't have kids, don't live in the state full time and pay those same taxes.  I pay almost as much tax in VT with a second home as do at my primary home.  It is what it is and I love being in VT.  I look at the schools around the MRV and north of us and I here nothing but praise for the schools and teachers so it appears to me that they are doing a good job.  I do not see what happens south of mid state so I can not comment on it.

What is totally mind blowing to me is that the state did not go the route of dispensaries and used that tax to help the issues they are faced with.  There are so many that grow in VT that are under the radar.  If they just regulated it it would be a huge win fall.


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## ShadyGrove (Jun 5, 2018)

I don't understand what you guys are talking about when you say there is a lack of work in Vermont.  Everyone I know has 2 or even three jobs! ;-)


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## prsboogie (Jun 5, 2018)

The bottom line with this country as a whole is the youngest and the oldest are seen as non-contributing age groups and as suck receive the least amount of support. This is despite what many would consider considerable amounts of "tax money" going towards education. Everyone is so concerned with keeping up with the world Jones's in performance numbers but the reality is we should be spending even more on them. 

Children need to have great educations, they are the ones who will be running the businesses, caring for us when we are sick and leading the country when we are old. This should not mean more money in the pockets of the administrators, it needs to be actually invested in inriching our children's minds. 

The elderly have worked their whole lives and contributed into the system, of course assuming they did work, and deserve to be cared for in the waning years. Of course there are external drains on the SSI system, dumping millions of dollars on "disabled" people. And no I do not speak of those unfortunate individuals who are truly disabled, but the ones who are unwilling to put some effort in bettering themselves or have some quack doctor that signs off on bullshit disability paperwork leaving us to foot the bill. 





sull1102 said:


> Vermont is overall not doing well, I live here now and I see it first hand every single day. The bottom half here is on par if not worse than what you see in places like Arkansas, I know, I've also seen that first hand. It is silly to even have this argument when it is so obvious how serious the problems are here and a major part of that is people who don't live here and used to or have a vacation home here that say oh Vermont is so great, yeah Burlington and Chittenden County are doing well, that's great for them, but the bottom of the State has been deemed an economic disaster area by the Fed, jobs are scarce, folks with a good education are leaving in droves and many many people are leaving to get an education elsewhere. Come on up and put your kid in the public schools of some of these lower end towns like a Brattleboro, Bennington, Rutland.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## AdironRider (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that little, poor Vermont has the 5th highest per pupil spending rate in the country.  Our education taxes are in the stratosphere.  And yet I pay private school tuition on top of those taxes, as anyone in my town who can afford to does.
> 
> http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html



As I was fortunate to receive some scholarships, I went to a prep school as well despite living in one of the best school districts in NH. If you don't mind me asking, which school do you send your kids to? If we do buy a place in VT, we would be looking at that route.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

One problem with Vermont is that we spend TONS of money on K-12 education, but we spend NOTHING on higher education.  This encourages native Vermonters to go to school out of state - most of whom will never return.

There's lots of discussion about how business-unfriendly Vermont is.  But let's be honest.  There are lots of states in the northeast that are business-unfriendly.  (ME, NY, MA, NJ, CT, etc.)  And yet New York and Boston are booming.  Why?  Because businesses are willing to suffer some pains in order to be located where the talent and opportunities are.  And therein lies the problem for Vermont.  Talent and opportunities are in much shorter supply here.  This is why you are seeing the robust economic recovery in urban areas but stagnation in rural areas.  America is changing and Vermont is on the unhappy side of the changes that are happening.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> If you don't mind me asking, which school do you send your kids to? If we do buy a place in VT, we would be looking at that route.



Shoot me a private message if you are interested.  I pay tuition at two different private schools.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> You are 120% DEAD WRONG. In fact what you just said is the exact problem this state has. Retirees contribute, yes, but not nearly on the level as young couples and families bringing jobs and their incomes/education. This state has a major education problem with folks who went through the public school systems, things need to change badly. You need better schools to educate these kids to be more than their struggling parents and go do something with their lives and add to that state instead of have a kid at 16-18 to jump on welfare early and live off the system.



Correct on the retiree issue.  Not correct on education.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> The second half of that is the problem, the well educated leave. Also the high end can drag those scores up, come check out some of these schools down here in Southern Vermont and talk to the kids, hear what the teacher are and are not teaching them, what their parents teach them, and I think you'll see how far behind they are compared to kids of the same age not just in America but more importantly worldwide. There are wide gaps, look at a Manchester with Burr and Burton which is a truly a wonderful school, then look at say Mount Anthony half an hour down the road, tis scary how big the divide is.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



That's Vermont.  No more middle class.  Either the haves or the have-nots.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> This is reality in every state in the country.  All states have good districts and bad districts, but the point is *overall VT is doing well.*



I see the stats, and I'm not really buying it. I'm not saying the stats are wrong, but my hypothesis is they're very misleading.  Why? 

Because Vermont is one of the only states in all of America that does not have a gigantic, urban, center dramatically pulling down the average that's used in those statistics.  So while I'm not saying Vermont is doing poorly, my lifetime of observation and interaction with Vermonters does not suggest to me that the state is a bastion of educational excellence.  



ShadyGrove said:


> *I don't understand what you guys are talking about when you say there is a lack of work in Vermont.  Everyone I know has 2 or even three jobs!* ;-)



That's funny right there!



VTKilarney said:


> There's lots of discussion about how business-unfriendly Vermont is.  But let's be honest.  There are lots of states in the northeast that are business-unfriendly.  (*ME, NY, MA, NJ, CT*, etc.)  And yet New York and Boston are booming.



The only state on that list that isn't currently experiencing a net flight of taxable income, is Maine.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Nope.
> *"Vermont taxes* all forms *of* retirement *income* at rates ranging from 3.55% to 8.95%. This includes Social Security retirement benefits and *income* from retirement accounts."
> 
> https://smartasset.com/retirement/vermont-retirement-taxes
> ...



As to income, while retirement benefits are taxed, the revenue is FAR less than if that person was working full-time.  And property taxes are capped for someone with low or no income.  So what happens is that those on fixed incomes pay less property taxes and others have to pay the difference.  The end result--everyone pays more.  

And you miss the point as to the "services" argument.  In suburban areas you have professional fire, EMT, police and roads that are paved.  Thus, if someone needs emergency help, it is easy to get to them.  In Vermont, the majority of towns have volunteer fire departments, no police, and professional or volunteer EMTs from a long ways off.  Roads are still dirt.  Folks retire to Vermont with the idea that these resources are five minutes away.  They are wrong.  Instead, they move to a remote farmhouse, demand that their road get paved, that there be a professional fire and police services, without realizing that there is NO TAX BASE to pay for those services.  Therein lies the rub.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see the stats, and I'm not really buying it. I'm not saying the stats are wrong, but my hypothesis is they're very misleading.  Why?
> 
> Because Vermont is one of the only states in all of America that does not have a gigantic, urban, center dramatically pulling down the average that's used in those statistics.  So while I'm not saying Vermont is doing poorly, my lifetime of observation and interaction with Vermonters does not suggest to me that the state is a bastion of educational excellence.



The argument that somehow poor urban people are worse off then poor rural people is flawed.  They are both poor and disenfranchised.  I think that Vermont does have a fair number of "good" schools in good areas where people with opportunities are doing well.  But there are a lot of smaller schools in poor rural areas that are struggling.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> And property taxes are capped for someone with low or no income.



Don't get me started on that.  When I purchased a home I asked myself, "Can I afford my mortgage and taxes?"  But Vermont doesn't think that you should have to do that.  Vermont expects people with higher incomes to subsidize people who buy more home than they can afford.


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## benski (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because Vermont is one of the only states in all of America that does not have a gigantic, urban, center dramatically pulling down the average that's used in those statistics.  So while I'm not saying Vermont is doing poorly, my lifetime of observation and interaction with Vermonters does not suggest to me that the state is a bastion of educational excellence.



They also don’t have many suburbs bringing up that average. I am not sure the lack of big urban areas helps or hurts.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Don't get me started on that.  When I purchased a home I asked myself, "Can I afford my mortgage and taxes?"  But Vermont doesn't think that you should have to do that.  Vermont expects people with higher incomes to subsidize people who buy more home than they can afford.



Exactly.  I wondered if they were still capping property taxes based on income.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> *The argument that somehow poor urban people are worse off then poor rural people is flawed. * They are both poor and disenfranchised.  I think that Vermont does have a fair number of "good" schools in good areas where people with opportunities are doing well.  But* there are a lot of smaller schools in poor rural areas that are struggling.*



I don't necessarily disagree with that.   But we're dealing with averages when you see educational rankings by truly meaningful criteria like SAT scores, and the negative effect from just 1 large city (many states have several large cities) is really going to leave a mark.  I don't think I've ever seen SAT scores presented this way, but I'd like to see the data ranked by median.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> *Vermont expects people with higher incomes to subsidize people who buy more home than they can afford.*



I had no idea Vermont property tax worked like that, that is positively *shocking.  *

Especially after the housing crash of circa 2006-2007, you'd think someone would have suggested that encouraging people to buy more house than they can afford (or even _should_ afford) is a really bad thing.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I had no idea Vermont property tax worked like that, that is positively *shocking.  *
> 
> Especially after the housing crash of circa 2006-2007, you'd think someone would have suggested that encouraging people to buy more house than they can afford (or even _should_ afford) is a really bad thing.



Well, it is not surprising.  One of the big problems with the federal tax code was that there were so many exceptions for special interests that the effective rate is higher.  Same thing here.  The legislature began making exceptions...for farms and "current uses" and then for poorer people.  So that raises the tax rate for everyone else to cover the loss.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, it is not surprising.  One of the big problems with the federal tax code was that there were so many exceptions for special interests that the effective rate is higher.  Same thing here.  The legislature began making exceptions...for farms and "current uses" and then for poorer people.  So that raises the tax rate for everyone else to cover the loss.



I can accept progressive taxation.  But I have a problem when I am subsidizing the property taxes of someone who owns a much more expensive house than I do.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I can accept progressive taxation.  But I have a problem when I am subsidizing the property taxes of someone who owns a much more expensive house than I do.



Agreed.


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## HowieT2 (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see the stats, and I'm not really buying it. I'm not saying the stats are wrong, but my hypothesis is they're very misleading.  Why?
> 
> Because Vermont is one of the only states in all of America that does not have a gigantic, urban, center dramatically pulling down the average that's used in those statistics.  So while I'm not saying Vermont is doing poorly, my lifetime of observation and interaction with Vermonters does not suggest to me that the state is a bastion of educational excellence.
> 
> ...



That is factually incorrect.  At least for NY state which I just checked.  Probably for Massachusetts and NJ as well.


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## speden (Jun 5, 2018)

Reading this thread makes Vermont sound like the most expensive place to live, but I think it still must cost less than metro Boston. House prices here are sky high, so even if the property tax rate is less in MA, you still end up paying more money. And that's probably on a house that's smaller, older, and has less land than what you could get up in VT. I can see why people would consider retiring up there.

I agree that VT is not highly ranked for colleges, especially for engineering majors. When my kids were looking at colleges, nothing in VT was on the radar.


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

speden said:


> Reading this thread makes Vermont sound like the most expensive place to live, but I think it still must cost less than metro Boston. House prices here are sky high, so even if the property tax rate is less in MA, you still end up paying more money. And that's probably on a house that's smaller, older, and has less land than what you could get up in VT. I can see why people would consider retiring up there.



Agreed. I've made similar arguments before like this in other threads in the past when this topic came up. (Except I used the NYC/NJ area in my example instead of Boston).


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

speden said:


> Reading this thread makes Vermont sound like the most expensive place to live, but I think it still must cost less than metro Boston. House prices here are sky high, so even if the property tax rate is less in MA, you still end up paying more money. And that's probably on a house that's smaller, older, and has less land than what you could get up in VT. I can see why people would consider retiring up there.
> 
> I agree that VT is not highly ranked for colleges, especially for engineering majors. When my kids were looking at colleges, nothing in VT was on the radar.



When I say "expensive to live," I count the fact that salaries are lower in Vermont than they are in Boston or New York.  You have to factor that into the equation.


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> When I say "expensive to live," I count the fact that salaries are lower in Vermont than they are in Boston or New York.  You have to factor that into the equation.


It's "expensive" for the income level. 

Put another way, pay is low with regard to cost of living.


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## shwilly (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> When I say "expensive to live," I count the fact that salaries are lower in Vermont than they are in Boston or New York.  You have to factor that into the equation.



Right, that's very relevant. The VT job market is what it is, but VT home prices are pushed up because seemingly half the people in those big metro areas want second homes or to move to VT to "get out of the rat race." It's a strange downside to being seen as a pastoral paradise. I don't know the answer.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

speden said:


> Reading this thread makes Vermont sound like the most expensive place to live, but I think it still must cost less than metro Boston. House prices here are sky high, so even if the property tax rate is less in MA, you still end up paying more money. And that's probably on a house that's smaller, older, and has less land than what you could get up in VT. I can see why people would consider retiring up there.
> 
> I agree that VT is not highly ranked for colleges, especially for engineering majors. When my kids were looking at colleges, nothing in VT was on the radar.



It is more expensive in Vermont when you take into account the cut in income potential.  It is huge.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> It is more expensive in Vermont when you take into account the cut in income potential.  It is huge.



To be fair, it is a trade that I voluntarily made.  But that trade has to be made if you want to live in Vermont.


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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

speden said:


> Reading this thread makes Vermont sound like the most expensive place to live, but I think it still must cost less than metro Boston. House prices here are sky high, so even if the property tax rate is less in MA, you still end up paying more money. And that's probably on a house that's smaller, older, and has less land than what you could get up in VT. I can see why people would consider retiring up there.
> 
> I agree that VT is not highly ranked for colleges, especially for engineering majors. When my kids were looking at colleges, nothing in VT was on the radar.


It is more expensive to live back home in Boston by a big margin, but the quality of life can vary. The bottom of the barrel here in SoVT is usually worse off than those in the projects in Southie. However, there are wayyyyyyy more opportunities to improve yourself and change your life for the better in Boston than there are here. If you are moving to Vermont you better be moving with or already have a solid career job. 

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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Shoot me a private message if you are interested.  I pay tuition at two different private schools.


Point proven once again, Vermont schools are so good, 5th in the nation, but not good enough for your kids no you chose to go the private option so come on man what is?

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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> One problem with Vermont is that we spend TONS of money on K-12 education, but we spend NOTHING on higher education.  This encourages native Vermonters to go to school out of state - most of whom will never return.
> 
> There's lots of discussion about how business-unfriendly Vermont is.  But let's be honest.  There are lots of states in the northeast that are business-unfriendly.  (ME, NY, MA, NJ, CT, etc.)  And yet New York and Boston are booming.  Why?  Because businesses are willing to suffer some pains in order to be located where the talent and opportunities are.  And therein lies the problem for Vermont.  Talent and opportunities are in much shorter supply here. .



Alright well here you don't know what you are talking about. New Jersey is home to countless MAJOR corporate headquarters from all industries. Amazon is looking at moving a ton of staff to Boston, GE just moved their HQ to Boston, Fidelity is here, Putnam too. The population is growing as much as the housing will allow and there's a full on housing crisis going on now. New York is NYC come on.  

Only Connecticut and Maine are seeing companies and people and their tax base leaving in droves.

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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Point proven once again, Vermont schools are so good, 5th in the nation, but not good enough for your kids no you chose to go the private option so come on man what is?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



I'm not sure what your question is - nor I am sure what "point" has been proven.  Are you angered that I have the means to provide the best possible education for my children?  

In your rush to judge, what you failed to consider is that my local public school is ranked 155th out of 171 in the state.

But why let facts affect a good tirade?


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Alright well here you don't know what you are talking about. New Jersey is home to countless MAJOR corporate headquarters from all industries. Amazon is looking at moving a ton of staff to Boston, GE just moved their HQ to Boston, Fidelity is here, Putnam too. The population is growing as much as the housing will allow and there's a full on housing crisis going on now. New York is NYC come on.
> 
> Only Connecticut and Maine are seeing companies and people and their tax base leaving in droves.



Huh? You're just giving examples that prove VTK's point so not sure how you're also saying he doesn't know what he is talking about. His point was that places like NJ and MA have many successful businesses that are booming DESPITE those states also being relatively unfriendly towards businesses (which I would agree with for NJ). Going back several years my company shifted much of our R&D work up to the Cambridge area. Why? It wasn't to save money and had little to do with the business friendliness of either state...but it was for access to the scientific talent in that area (exactly VTK's point that companies are willing to deal with the pain of doing business in a particular state if they think it is worth it for things like access to talent).

At least for NJ, there are also many companies that HAVE left for more business friendly states though. I live here. I've seen them leave with my own eyes. We may be home to countless major corporations, but there are also many more that left.


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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

Well Jersey just gave my company a massive borderline insane tax cut to keep HQ in Jersey so perhaps there I was slightly biased, however Massachusetts is not the same situation. You think MA is unfriendly to business? Have you seen the tax cuts they gave GE, Fidelity, are willing to give Amazon, etc, etc?

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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not sure what your question is - nor I am sure what "point" has been proven.  Are you angered that I have the means to provide the best possible education for my children?
> 
> In your rush to judge, what you failed to consider is that my local public school is ranked 155th out of 171 in the state.
> 
> But why let facts affect a good tirade?


Ughhh, what a d-baggy comment. No I don't give two flying f's what education you give your kids, you should do what's best for them, that's not why I come on AZ lol. My point that you forgot was that Vermont schools are bad and you proved it by saying your kids go to private school, bit by the time you got there in your sentence you did remember what my point was. I've watched you do this on the Burke/Jay threads years ago so I know you aren't going to come off your right leaning side of the fence, which is fine.

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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Well Jersey just gave my company a massive borderline insane tax cut to keep HQ in Jersey so perhaps there I was slightly biased, however Massachusetts is not the same situation. You think MA is unfriendly to business? *Have you seen the tax cuts they gave GE, Fidelity, are willing to give Amazon, etc, etc?*



Those tax cuts are a race to the bottom.  Numerous states offered them.  Massachusetts didn't offer them because they wanted to.  They offered them because they had to.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> My point that you forgot was that Vermont schools are bad and you proved it by saying your kids go to private school



I "proved" nothing of the sort.  All I said was that the school in MY town is bad.  I made no judgment regarding the quality of schools in the State of Vermont as a whole.

When and if I do that I will let you know.


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## JimG. (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Those tax cuts are a race to the bottom.  Numerous states offered them.  Massachusetts didn't offer them because they wanted to.  They offered them because they had to.



Ya!

NY offers insane tax discounts to businesses and the effect has been to hollow out the tax coffers wherever those businesses set up shop. Bad news for local property owners.


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## mister moose (Jun 5, 2018)

So we're giving tax cuts for a select few and screwing the rest?

So Amazon can compete even better against mom and pop?
So my widgets are now uncompetitive because Acme Widgets just got a sweetheart deal for not moving and can sell them cheaper?

This bribery based selective tax policy is messed up.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

If you are interested in the tax incentive issue, here is something worth reading:
https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I "proved" nothing of the sort.  All I said was that the school in MY town is bad.  I made no judgment regarding the quality of schools in the State of Vermont as a whole.
> 
> When and if I do that I will let you know.



I thought your comment was pretty clear and agree it proved absolutely nothing about VT as a whole. Not sure why someone else is having a difficult time understanding.

And honestly, even if you had a top ranked school in your town and sent your kids to a private school anyway, that still proves absolutely nothing. The town where I grew up in NJ was one of the top ranked school districts in the state, yet some people still chose to send their kids to private schools. That proves nothing.


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## 56fish (Jun 5, 2018)

:beer:  peace


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> *That is factually incorrect.  At least for NY state which I just checked.  Probably for Massachusetts and NJ as well.*



What exactly are you looking at?  

New York State is dead last in America in this category.  Without looking, I know MA & NJ are bottom 5 as well.

I believe Texas is still #1 (too lazy to look right now), suburbs of places like Austin are booming.



VTKilarney said:


> When I say "expensive to live," *I count the fact that salaries are lower in Vermont than they are in Boston or New York.  You have to factor that into the equation.*



 Yup.   Just a weeeee important detail to leave out. LOL



mister moose said:


> *So **we're giving tax cuts for a select few and screwing the rest?*
> 
> *S**o Amazon can compete even better against mom and pop?*
> So my widgets are now uncompetitive because Acme Widgets just got a sweetheart deal for not moving and can sell them cheaper?
> ...



Agreed; and I find this recent tax policy capitulation by very left-leaning states (NY, NJ, CA, IL, MA) both amusing & bemusing. 

 For years they assured their membership that Republicans were wrong & that corporate tax incentives do absolutely nothing to create jobs or attract business.  Yet quietly (very quietly), most of these liberal states have been doing just that over the last 5 years, but as you note, they're doing it wrong, by "picking the winners" & generally only offering these juicy tax incentives to the largest companies.  A lowering of the corporate taxes holistically in concert with spending cuts (for balance) would be best economically, but unfortunately it's easier to get a cat to take a bath than get those states to decrease spending! In NJ, we're spending ourselves into oblivion.


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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Those tax cuts are a race to the bottom.  Numerous states offered them.  Massachusetts didn't offer them because they wanted to.  They offered them because they had to.


Oh honey, you think Massachusetts NEEDED GE? Oh sweetie you are so silly and out of you have with reality, stay up in the NEK bubble you got. The only thing I see coming out this or the other thread where you are spewing crap and running your agenda is that you are one stubborn guy and we won't be agreeing on much of anything.

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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh honey, you think Massachusetts NEEDED GE? Oh sweetie you are so silly and out of you have with reality, stay up in the NEK bubble you got. The only thing I see coming out this or the other thread where you are spewing crap and running your agenda is that you are one stubborn guy and we won't be agreeing on much of anything.



Why insert a caustic tone into this thread?  Surely you know how to discuss things without resorting to that grade-school tactic?  Or are you just angry that you got called out on your airfare lie?

It would also be helpful if you did not misrepresent what I said.  I was not referring specifically to GE.  I commented on the statement that tax breaks were given to "GE, Fidelity, are willing [sic] to give [sic] Amazon, etc, etc." 

Hint: "etc" means "and others; and so forth."

I stand by my comment that Massachusetts has to generally play the tax-break game or they are in trouble.  It's not me saying this, it's the researchers.  If you want to take it up with them, but all means have at it.


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> For years they assured their membership that Republicans were wrong & that corporate tax incentives do absolutely nothing to create jobs or attract business.


No, it doesn't.



> Yet quietly (very quietly), most of these liberal states have been doing just that over the last 5 years, .


What that does it trying to "lure" *existing *business to move into the state. Or, new business which would otherwise be lured AWAY to neighboring states to come to their own state. 

It IS a race to the bottom. The end result is no state gets the tax money. The big corporation wins, by playing one state against the next until they can drive the tax incentive to next to no tax. 

None of it "creates" business. All the states and politicians are playing a zero-sum game. Same game VT is playing trying to steal tax paying human capitals from other states. 

Creation takes innovation, knowledge. The kind of stuff MIT and CalTech and Stanford are doing well at. So despite MA and CA are both "liberal and high tax" states, they still lead the way on business CREATION!


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

To add one more real life example to the list here, my company was going to move several manufacturing lines from New York to both a red state and to Ireland, both with significantly lower taxes than New York State.  Then Uncle Chucky came begging with a big ol' bag of cash, which was rejected initially, prompting Chucky to come back with an even bigger bag o'cash.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

abc said:


> *No, it doesn't.  What that does it trying to "lure" existing business to move into the state. Or, new business which would otherwise be lured AWAY to neighboring states to come to their own state. *



Do you not see the implicit contradiction in your own writing?


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you not see the implicit contradiction in your own writing?


The only contradiction is your inability to distinguish creation from re-distribution.

Next sentence you say, the "liberal" states are "creating money for the poor" by taxing the rich.  

Go grab your neighbor's trash can. It's "free".


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

abc said:


> *The only contradiction is your inability to distinguish creation from re-distribution. *



What exactly is being, "created" here to be re-distributed?



abc said:


> Next sentence you say, the "liberal" states are "creating money for the poor" by taxing the rich.
> 
> Go grab your neighbor's trash can. It's "free".



Huh?


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

I can't believe this needs to be explained: 

Create:            0 --> 1 
Redistribute:    1 --> 1



BenedictGomez said:


> What exactly is being, "created" here to be re-distributed?


When Facebook was "created", it went from zero to millions of users. Jobs and revenues as part of the process. But when it moved from MA to CA, the jobs in MA disappeared to reappear in CA. That's redistribution. 

When Apple moved its headquarter to Ireland, the US treasury lost all of the tax income. Ireland got a portion of it. Apple got to keep the rest. No new money was earned/generated. Just re-distributed from the US treasury to Ireland & Apple. When Apple again moved from Ireland to the island of Jersey, Ireland lost out in another re-distribution. In all of those processes, few new job or revenue was "created". When Apple move their factories to China, the jobs disappeared from the US and reappeared in China! Again, not new jobs, just jobs being moved around: redistribution. 

That's what VT is trying to do, MOVING (re-distributing) worker from other state to VT. Nothing is created. Whatever tax the worker WAS paying to their original state, they now pay to VT -- re-distribution. 



> Huh?


If the above is too difficult to comprehend, when you buy a new garbage can, it was "created" from raw material to become a can. Now there're TWO garbage can in your block. But when you grab your neighbor's garbage can, you're merely moving the 1 single can from your neighbor's yard to yours. Nothing has been created.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 6, 2018)

speden said:


> I agree that VT is not highly ranked for colleges, especially for engineering majors. When my kids were looking at colleges, nothing in VT was on the radar.



Dartmouth would be the good choice for some, but on the NH side of the line...


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## drjeff (Jun 6, 2018)

In summary, VT as we all know, has some up sides, especially if you have the income, as a place to live. VT, along with many other states, have some serious issues with education, poverty and business climate.  VT has a high tax burden as well. How one feels about taxes and who should pay what seems to be what this thread is turning into....


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Dartmouth would be the good choice for some, but on the NH side of the line...



Middlebury.


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## speden (Jun 6, 2018)

Since tourism is a big part of the Vermont economy, I think they should ease up a little on the speeding tickets for out of state drivers. I like what NH did with raising the speed limit to 70 on I-93. It effectively brought ski areas in the White Mountains closer to Boston and reduces the stress while driving there. I've been doing 75 and been passed by cops who now have a lot less interest in writing tickets on that stretch. Driving in VT is a different story.


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## slatham (Jun 6, 2018)

Wow, we digress. I plan to move to Vt eventually. I do not plan to read this thread any longer......


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## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2018)

speden said:


> Since tourism is a big part of the Vermont economy, I think they should ease up a little on the speeding tickets for out of state drivers. I like what NH did with raising the speed limit to 70 on I-93. It effectively brought ski areas in the White Mountains closer to Boston and reduces the stress while driving there. I've been doing 75 and been passed by cops who now have a lot less interest in writing tickets on that stretch. Driving in VT is a different story.


In regards to 89, I don't think you will see the limit raised like it has been on 93 due to safety concerns.  IIRC NH looked at raising 89 to 70 as well and determined it had too many areas where travel will be unsafe at faster average speeds.  89 in VT has even more hills and turns, so it would suprise me to see that limit raised.

The speed traps in the Villages of VT will likely not change to accommodate faster tourist travel.  State highways don't seem to be an issue in regards to enforcement anymore than NH.  In fact, it's probably easier in VT to put the peddle down. You don't really have gauntlets over there like 16 in NH as an example.

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

abc said:


> I can't believe this needs to be explained:
> 
> When Facebook was "created", it went from zero to millions of users. Jobs and revenues as part of the process. But when it moved from MA to CA, the jobs in MA disappeared to reappear in CA. That's redistribution.
> 
> ...



You seem to think you're making some deep profound point, but you're not.

If 1000 jobs leave a state with high taxes to go to a state with low taxes, I'd first suggest you rethink the logic of high corporate taxes. 

 But the larger folly you're making is by ending your analysis there & suggesting everything is just "redistributed" and not understanding that the millions of dollars in corporate savings will be reinvested in further financial activities that increase economic activity and directly leads to more jobs.  In economics, that's called growth.

And _"if the above is too difficult to comprehend"_, I suggest you simply look at where startups are booming and businesses are growing (HINT: Generally speaking, low-tax states are doing better).  And take a look at Business Insider (link below), which puts out this best/worst states to start a business every year; with a few exceptions, typically the high tax states are all ranked 25 to 50 in the back half of the nation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-best-and-worst-states-to-start-a-business-2016-10


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## Hawk (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> What exactly are you looking at?
> 
> New York State is dead last in America in this category.  Without looking, I know MA & NJ are bottom 5 as well.
> 
> ...



Not entirely True in Mass.  We have a Republican Governor Charlie Baker.  In fact our state has elected a republican Governors more than once recently.  At any rate the tax credits to several large companies have benefited our state immensely with job growth.  We are just waiting for our conservative leader to bring the taxes down and then everybody is happy.  Someone else mentioned Fidelity but they are not a good example as they have been moving operations out of Mass to NH, RI, NC and TX over the last 15 years.


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## mister moose (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If 1000 jobs leave a state with high taxes to go to a state with low taxes, I'd first suggest you rethink the logic of high corporate taxes.
> 
> But the larger folly you're making is by ending your analysis there & suggesting everything is just "redistributed" and not understanding that the millions of dollars in corporate savings will be reinvested in further financial activities that increase economic activity and directly leads to more jobs.  In economics, that's called growth.



It's interesting that the same folks that fully understand it's cheaper for Vermonters to shop in NH don't get that companies do the same thing.  They go where their costs are lower to the extent they are able.  Or they send divisions to the low cost site, and the high cost site sees growth stagnate or shrink.

I disagree on the source of growth.  Your example comes from a self driven willingness to reinvest profits.  That happens sometimes, but is not the rule.  Most companies are just keeping up with the competition who also moved to achieve lower costs, there is no necessarily added revenue.  _Growth comes from the incentive to do more._  Work more, produce more, take risks, innovate.  That comes from a sufficiently non punishing environment that motivates you to do all that.  So if the new location brings you that (other than just lower costs needed to compete), then yes moving might create growth.  You can talk about local growth (States) or national growth.  The latter comes from proper incentives on a national level, not the local tax bribery we both railed against earlier.


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## CoolMike (Jun 6, 2018)

speden said:


> Since tourism is a big part of the Vermont economy, I think they should ease up a little on the speeding tickets for out of state drivers. I like what NH did with raising the speed limit to 70 on I-93. It effectively brought ski areas in the White Mountains closer to Boston and reduces the stress while driving there. I've been doing 75 and been passed by cops who now have a lot less interest in writing tickets on that stretch. Driving in VT is a different story.



I got a ticket for doing 73 in that section of 93 that the limit is 70.

No way to fight it since its far enough North that its not worth the time.  Ticket cost was small (120$? - can't remember) but its sitting on my insurance record now and would seriously raise my rates if I get another ticket in the next 3-4 years.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 6, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> I got a ticket for doing 73 in that section of 93 that the limit is 70.



Are you kidding me?  I assumed that you had at least a 5 mph leeway.  Was there something else wrong with your vehicle that led to your getting pulled over?


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## CoolMike (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Are you kidding me?  I assumed that you had at least a 5 mph leeway.  Was there something else wrong with your vehicle that led to your getting pulled over?



No other issues with my car.  On this day there were 3-4 cruisers along that stretch of highway and they were pulling over everyone going over the limit by any amount.  I was one of 3 cars pulled over in rapid succession.  If I had the time to drive up and fight it at the local courts I would easily have won but no luck for me.


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## speden (Jun 6, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> In regards to 89, I don't think you will see the limit raised like it has been on 93 due to safety concerns.  IIRC NH looked at raising 89 to 70 as well and determined it had too many areas where travel will be unsafe at faster average speeds.  89 in VT has even more hills and turns, so it would suprise me to see that limit raised.



I don't mind if the limit drops here and there for a tight turn or urban stretch, but a limit of 70 on the open stretches is sure nice. I get five days at Sugarbush and Killington next season on the Ikon base, and I need to get there as quickly as possible to help the Vermont economy.  I'd settle for a special pass that would exempt me from speeding tickets, but I guess impersonating an officer isn't legal. Oh well.



CoolMike said:


> I got a ticket for doing 73 in that section of 93 that the limit is 70.



That's disconcerting. I thought going 75 in a 70 was pretty much accepted, so I kind of zone out and don't watch for police cars. I guess they love to go after out of state people because they won't fight it in court.


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## abc (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Generally speaking, low-tax states are doing better). And take a look at Business Insider (link below), which puts out this best/worst states to start a business every year; with a few exceptions, typically the high tax states are all ranked 25 to 50 in the back half of the nation.


Right! 

California is #27 while Navada is #2. 

Tell me Navada is having more new "real" business than California! Funny thing is, despite being rank so poorly, "California holds the No. 4 position for the highest rate of new entrepreneurs and No. 6 for density of startups in the U.S." (That's from that very same article that did the "ranking", if you actually read it)


[Hint: my last "corporation" for my freelance work was technically BASE IN Navada! And the previous one was in Delaware!!! Why? The "low" tax rate. Haha! ]

There's nothing "profound" in what I wrote. It's stuff anyone who's half way involved in business knows. Shame not more people know about it. Or we won't have this clown as a president, based on his "stellar business success"!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

abc said:


> Right!
> 
> California is #27 while Navada is #2.
> 
> ...



That is deceiving because a lot of HUGE corporations are in CA...particularly in tech...and they recruit a lot of talent that will leave and start up their own businesses in their backyard.  Once they get to a certain size they then move and expand to another state that generally is lower expense.  Like Utah.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> I got a ticket for doing 73 in that section of 93 that the limit is 70.
> 
> No way to fight it since its far enough North that its not worth the time.  Ticket cost was small (120$? - can't remember) but its sitting on my insurance record now and would seriously raise my rates if I get another ticket in the next 3-4 years.



I am more of the go 80 in a 70. Passed cops and they don't even blink. so it is $40 per mph over the speed limit - yikes.


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## Hawk (Jun 6, 2018)

There is something fishy about what he is saying.  The state police do not pull you over for 3 mph over. They just don't and I know this as a fact.  Either the speed limit was lower, He was actually driving faster, he had a tail light out or was driving erratically.  Something.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 6, 2018)

As for Vermont's speed limit, even if you buy that I-89 isn't appropriate for 70 mph (which I don't), what about I-91?


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Not entirely True in Mass.  We have a Republican Governor Charlie Baker.  In fact our state has elected a republican Governors more than once recently.  At any rate *the tax credits to several large companies have benefited our state immensely with job growth.  We are just waiting for our conservative leader to bring the taxes down and then everybody is happy.  *Someone else mentioned Fidelity but they are not a good example as they have been moving operations out of Mass to NH, RI, NC and TX over the last 15 years.



MA is one of the anomalies of a "high tax state" that's actually not doing poorly in that regard, but it's more complicated than that given precisely what you wrote.  It is a high tax state, but they've been giving lots of benefits to businesses.  So MA doesnt suffer from the typical "tax everyone and everything until it dies" phenomena that other northeastern states do.



CoolMike said:


> I got a ticket for doing 73 in that section of 93 that the limit is 70.



Wow, that's a jerk cop (or the 31st of the month in a town with quotas).



abc said:


> Right!   California is #27 while Navada is #2.
> 
> *Tell me Navada is having more new "real" business than California! Funny thing is, despite being rank so poorly,* "*California holds the No. 4 position for the highest rate of new entrepreneurs* and No. 6 for density of startups in the U.S." (That's from that very same article that did the "ranking", if you actually read it)



You do realize that while California is one of the largest states in America, something like 150,000 square miles, yet it you removed the tax receipts from Silicon Valley, which is probably only a few thousand square miles, California would sink into a Lord of the Flies or Hunger Games level of deprivation?  Really not the best example you could toss out.  

The irony is, California is the biggest example of income inequality in all of America, which is quite the retina-burning, hyper-obvious display of hypocrisy given the general proclivities of both the elected and the electorate.  It's also a state a lot of people are moving from due to the high taxes & lack of affordability, most of who are going to places like Arizona, Texas, and (yes) Nevada.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> As for Vermont's speed limit, even if you buy that I-89 isn't appropriate for 70 mph (which I don't), what about I-91?



I-89 not appropriate for 70 mph?  I-89 seems like the autobahn to me. 

 It's a road that's constantly kept in perfect condition due to the fact Vermont doesn't have highways to spend money on, yet receives the same level of Federal support as every other state does, as well as the fact that so few people live in Vermont that it's a ghost town.  I do Mach 2.0 on I-89, and IMO it's one of the most fun roads to drive east of the Mississippi.  Pretty scenery too!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2018)

Can't seem to find an article explaining why it didn't pass, but in NH it was proposed in 2014 and the limits haven't changed. 

https://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/higher-speed-limits-on-route-101-i89

As for 91? I'd say 70 mph is fine North of White River.  I was flying from STJ to White River just yesterday as I was late for a meeting and there's a lot of long straight stretches with good visibility.   South of there the conditions are a bit less safe in a lot of areas

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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

How the hell did we get to what the speed limit should be on I-89, 91, and 93?!


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## tumbler (Jun 6, 2018)

The speed limit on 89 in NH & VT should be 70.  I consistently drive 78-82ish and am moving with traffic.  I also get passed a lot.  I've done the drive many hundreds of times and pretty much know where the cops sit.  What has been pissing me off in NH is the airplane speeding ticket.  We know where and when they do it so we pay attention but we are sometimes doing the drive like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas getting followed by the helicopter.


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## tumbler (Jun 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> How the hell did we get to what the speed limit should be on I-89, 91, and 93?!



It's summer!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> How the hell did we get to what the speed limit should be on I-89, 91, and 93?!


Speden made a comment about how tourism is so vital to the economy in VT, the state should ease up on traffic enforcement and raise the limit like on 93 in NH.  I.e. traffic enforcement is hurting the VT economy as it turns people off from visiting

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ShadyGrove (Jun 6, 2018)

drjeff said:


> The VT GDP is roughly 30 Billion a year. The state has significant annual budgetary issues. The state is looking at the federal government wanting to bring their F-35 jet base to Burlington with an estimated 3 Billion added to the VT economy from both direct and indirect jobs and investment.



Do you have some sources to back this up?  Best sources I could find has VT GDP under $25B and even proponents state the impact of the F-35 project around $212mil.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I-89 not appropriate for 70 mph?  I-89 seems like the autobahn to me.
> 
> It's a road that's constantly kept in perfect condition due to the fact Vermont doesn't have highways to spend money on, yet receives the same level of Federal support as every other state does, as well as the fact that so few people live in Vermont that it's a ghost town.  I do Mach 2.0 on I-89, and IMO it's one of the most fun roads to drive east of the Mississippi.  Pretty scenery too!



I am assuming the fed gives states funds for maintenance for interstate highway based on miles of highway.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Speden made a comment about how tourism is so vital to the economy in VT, the state should ease up on traffic enforcement and raise the limit like on 93 in NH.  I.e. traffic enforcement is hurting the VT economy as it turns people off from visiting
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I figured.  I was half-joking.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## abc (Jun 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> That is deceiving because a lot of HUGE corporations are in CA...particularly in tech...and they recruit a lot of talent that will leave and start up their own businesses in their backyard. Once they get to a certain size they then move and expand to another state that generally is lower expense. Like Utah.


The question is, how did all those HUGE corporations got to CA in the first place? Did California had such low tax rate that they moved there? Or did they all STARTED there because the business climate was more important than the tax rate?


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## abc (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> You do realize that while California is one of the largest states in America, something like 150,000 square miles, yet it you removed the tax receipts from Silicon Valley, which is probably only a few thousand square miles, California would sink into a Lord of the Flies or Hunger Games level of deprivation?


So what?

If you take out Silicon Valley, Seattle, Boston, New York, the country of United State "would sink into a Lord of the Flies or Hunger Games level of deprivation"! 

Is that a better example you'd like to use?


----------



## Domeskier (Jun 6, 2018)

abc said:


> Street carts, Chinatown, Washington Height... depends on where my office is and where my commute takes me.
> 
> Of course I don't shop in the overpriced "supermarket"! The only thing "super" about them are their prices! (although WholeFood's sale items are surprisingly competitive in price, and similarly at Trader Joe's and Fairway for some specialty item not found on other places)
> 
> Shop in ethnic or minority run shops or better yet, street carts man by Egyptians or Haitians. Food and grocery are often fresher and reasonably priced.



Getting healthy food options into Manhattan takes money that adds to the cost of goods sold. This is on top of the premium added by exhorbitant rents. I suppose you might be surprised by the price of food in Manhattan if you are unrealistically expecting to pay Vail prices for a slice of pizza. However, to suggest that food in Manhattan is inexpensive is demonstrably false and insulting to the large number of people here who live on fast food because they cannot afford fruits and vegetables from their local grocers, “ethnic” or otherwise.


----------



## abc (Jun 6, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> insulting to the large number of people here who live on fast food because they cannot afford fruits and vegetables


Insulting? If they can afford the rent of Manhattan, they can afford the fruit and vegetables. 

Living IN Manhattan is a choice not a necessity. What "large number" who lived in Manhattan can't afford fruit and vegetable? And what "fast food" would be cheaper to sustain them? Pizza? Chinese take-outs? Or grill sausages? 

I commuted into Manhattan to work while lived in Queens. (before I moved into Manhattan and lived there for some years) And I now commute into Manhattan from Westchester. I know quite well how to live in Manhattan vs in the suburbs. 

I now buy fruits and vegetable FROM Manhattan Chinatown on Friday to eat on weekends in Westchester. I was amused to see half of the people buying vegetables in Chinatown are non-Chinese. When I used to commute past Washington Height, I bought fruits from Mexican merchants on street carts, for less than my local grocery store. Again, I wasn't the only non-Latino in the shops/markets either. (I still sometimes asked my colleague who lived in Washington Height to buy specific fruit from his neighborhood fruit carts too)


----------



## Domeskier (Jun 6, 2018)

abc said:


> Insulting? If they can afford the rent of Manhattan, they can afford the fruit and vegetables.
> 
> I commuted into Manhattan to work while lived in Queens. And I now commute into Manhattan from Westchester. Living IN Manhattan is a choice not a necessity.
> 
> I buy fruits and vegetable FROM Manhattan Chinatown on Friday to eat on weekends in Westchester. When I used to commute past Washington Height, I guy fruits from Mexican merchants on street carts, for less than my local grocery store.



Insulting and myopic. Not everyone living in Manhattan is paying market rent. The fact that you are able to pay less for food in their neighborhoods than at some local grocer in Westchester must be of great comfort to them.


----------



## Jully (Jun 6, 2018)

tumbler said:


> The speed limit on 89 in NH & VT should be 70.  I consistently drive 78-82ish and am moving with traffic.  I also get passed a lot.  I've done the drive many hundreds of times and pretty much know where the cops sit.  What has been pissing me off in NH is the airplane speeding ticket.  We know where and when they do it so we pay attention but we are sometimes doing the drive like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas getting followed by the helicopter.



Heard a number of complaints about the airplane traps. I've seen them on 95, before Sunapee on 89, amd between WV and Loon on93. Is there a timeline for when these happen? Seems to be expanding over the past few years too.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

abc said:


> So what?  If you take out Silicon Valley, Seattle, Boston, New York, the country of United State "would sink into a Lord of the Flies or Hunger Games level of deprivation"!
> *
> Is that a better example you'd like to use?*



No; it just helps show more how you really arent aware of how critical Silicon Valley is to the economics of California; it's the only thing keeping that bat**** crazy, completely financially insane and irresponsible state from going belly-up.  

If you remove the city of Boston from MA, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts could still function.  If you removed Silicon Valley from CA, the state would look like an apocalyptic biblical "end of days", with violence, crime, fire, and everything short of cannibalism.  




Domeskier said:


> *Insulting and myopic. Not everyone living in Manhattan is paying market rent. The fact that you are able to pay less for food in their neighborhoods than at some local grocer in Westchester must be of great comfort to them.*



To think, all I had to do to lower my Manhattan grocery bills was to buy all my food off the outdoor Chinatown & Mexican roach coaches!

But the most tone deaf part of the post is believing that the poor people in Manhattan are paying fair market rate.  That was a howler right there.  Jeez, even I'm more "woke" than that, and I'm not exactly what one would call the sensitive and overly compassionate type! lol


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

I'd love to see the rate-of-return on running "airplane traps" on highways.  

Just how the hell much does a speeding ticket cost in New Hampshire?!?!?!


----------



## Domeskier (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> To think, all I had to do to lower my Manhattan grocery bills was to buy all my food off the outdoor Chinatown & Mexican roach coaches!
> 
> But the most tone deaf part of the post is believing that the poor people in Manhattan are paying fair market rate.  That was a howler right there.  Jeez, even I'm more "woke" than that, and I'm not exactly what one would call the sensitive and overly compassionate type! lol



Let them eat (reasonably priced) lychee!


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I-89 not appropriate for 70 mph?  I-89 seems like the autobahn to me.
> 
> It's a road that's constantly kept in perfect condition due to the fact Vermont doesn't have highways to spend money on, yet receives the same level of Federal support as every other state does, as well as the fact that so few people live in Vermont that it's a ghost town.  I do Mach 2.0 on I-89, and IMO it's one of the most fun roads to drive east of the Mississippi.  Pretty scenery too!



Are you sure about the Federal funding? In 2015, Vermont received 291 million in funding, compared to say Texas getting 3.4 billion.


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## Rikka (Jun 7, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Hawk (Jun 7, 2018)

This thread is very interesting because it has opinions and perspectives from a wide range of age groups and geographical locations.  But if you take a step back and think about what people are saying about living in VT, I find it comical the talk about costs and the general tone of frugality.  The majority of people on here are people that work good jobs and live fairly comfortably.  They ski a bunch and also do other things that are voluntary cash spending items.  Skiing is expensive.  Living in the city is expensive.  When I hear people actually stop at carts to shop produce to save what, a few dollars?  I just kills me.  If you live an expensive life style then own it.  Complaining about taxes and expensive lift tickets is certainly a first world problem.  Just a thought to ponder.

I have taken to the opinion that life is short and I am not going to die a rich man.  I plan to spend every last dime now while I have good health and mobility.


----------



## Scruffy (Jun 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This thread is very interesting because it has opinions and perspectives from a wide range of age groups and geographical locations.  But if you take a step back and think about what people are saying about living in VT, I find it comical the talk about costs and the general tone of frugality.  The majority of people on here are people that work good jobs and live fairly comfortably.  They ski a bunch and also do other things that are voluntary cash spending items.  *Skiing is expensive.  Living in the city is expensive*.
> 
> ... *life is short* ...



And choosing to live in a highly taxed, small state with less opportunities, but close to skiing or other outdoor activities, can be expensive, but the peace of mind and quality of life(subjective, of course)  are trade-offs some are willing to make if they have the means or creativity to figure out how to manage there; others do the 7-8 hour drive a few times a year and call it good, or bitch about it. 

Getting back on topic:

Vermont has shown a glimmer of hope with respect to new small entrepreneurs in 2017 over 2016. Vermont is still about dead last in attracting venture capital and growing big businesses though.  



> Among the twenty-five smallest states, the three thatexperienced the biggest increase in ranks in 2017were Connecticut, Vermont, and Kansas. The threethat experienced the biggest negative shifts in rank in2017 compared to 2016 were Hawaii, Rhode Island,and Delaware.


 https://www.kauffman.org/kauffman-index/reporting/startup-activity


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'd love to see the rate-of-return on running "airplane traps" on highways.
> 
> Just how the hell much does a speeding ticket cost in New Hampshire?!?!?!



Works well in FL, they got me one morning on the way to the airport.

"A fleet of seven Cessna fixed-wing aircraft patrol the skies above  Florida, delivering over 45,000 citations per year, with about 38,000 of  those being speeding tickets."

Supposedly about $150/hr for cost of the plane...


----------



## Kleetus (Jun 7, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Works well in FL, they got me one morning on the way to the airport.
> 
> "A fleet of seven Cessna fixed-wing aircraft patrol the skies above  Florida, delivering over 45,000 citations per year, with about 38,000 of  those being speeding tickets."
> 
> Supposedly about $150/hr for cost of the plane...



$150 an hour for the airplane cost is about right. That's about the going rate for small single-engine piston rental aircraft these days. 

FYI, NY state has a fleet of speed trap aircraft also. Don't see them much but every once in a while they are out there flying along the Thruway.


----------



## abc (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> No; it just helps show more how you really arent aware of how critical Silicon Valley is to the economics of California; it's the only thing keeping that bat**** crazy, completely financially insane and irresponsible state from going belly-up.


And that comes from someone who had live in California for how long?

Wake up! This entire country is lifted by those few "islands" for the last 20 years! But too many people are too blind to see it.

Keep alive your dream of bucolic pastures without smokestacks. It will only be a reality when you have high tech islands like that of Silicon Valley. As for the rest of the COUNTRY, it's up to you to figure out what the local youth should do. I certainly don't have a solution for that. But I know trying to hold back the tide of change and turning back the clock is a sure way to fail.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> *Let them eat (reasonably priced) lychee!*



I cant wait to learn about the thrifty, money-saving tactics the poor of Manhattan employ for their sushi. 



MEtoVTSkier said:


> "A fleet of seven Cessna fixed-wing aircraft patrol the skies above  Florida, delivering over 45,000 citations per year, with about 38,000 of  those being speeding tickets."
> *
> Supposedly about $150/hr for cost of the plane*...



Interesting info.  I wonder what it is all-in, plane, pilot, etc...


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## CoolMike (Jun 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> There is something fishy about what he is saying.  The state police do not pull you over for 3 mph over. They just don't and I know this as a fact.  Either the speed limit was lower, He was actually driving faster, he had a tail light out or was driving erratically.  Something.



All not true.  EVERYONE on the road was getting pulled over.  Cops were standing outside of their cruiser with the radar and a second and third cruiser were ahead by 1/4 mile or so.  Another cop was between the two cruisers just waiving people to pull over.  I saw probably 5-6 cars pass while I was pulled over and 3 of them also got flagged.  All of us got tickets as far as I can tell.

Believe what you want but this happened to me.  I'm a normal driver with a well kept car and I was even using cruise control at the time I got flagged.


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## CoolMike (Jun 7, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I am more of the go 80 in a 70. Passed cops and they don't even blink. so it is $40 per mph over the speed limit - yikes.



I don't think it was specifically 40 per MPH over - I think there is a base fee for any amount over the limit and then at a certain point you pay per mile over.  I don't recall the exact amount but it was not too expensive for a speeding ticket.


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## Hawk (Jun 7, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> All not true.  EVERYONE on the road was getting pulled over.  Cops were standing outside of their cruiser with the radar and a second and third cruiser were ahead by 1/4 mile or so.  Another cop was between the two cruisers just waiving people to pull over.  I saw probably 5-6 cars pass while I was pulled over and 3 of them also got flagged.  All of us got tickets as far as I can tell.
> 
> Believe what you want but this happened to me.  I'm a normal driver with a well kept car and I was even using cruise control at the time I got flagged.



Mike, The only reason I have my doubts is that I drive that stretch every weekend from November to May, Friday night up and Sunday night back.  I drive at least 75 with he cruise on and sometime faster.  I have never had an issue. (know on Wood).  Also I have 3 relatives that are state police, one in NH and their consensus is that 10 over is the usual threshold.  I guess I will chalk yours up to bad luck.


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## CoolMike (Jun 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> Mike, The only reason I have my doubts is that I drive that stretch every weekend from November to May, Friday night up and Sunday night back.  I drive at least 75 with he cruise on and sometime faster.  I have never had an issue. (know on Wood).  Also I have 3 relatives that are state police, one in NH and their consensus is that 10 over is the usual threshold.  I guess I will chalk yours up to bad luck.



Yes - for sure it was bad luck.  I do think it had to do with the relatively recent change to the speed limit along that stretch of road.  I got this ticket the same year they changed the limit (3-4 years ago?).


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## VTKilarney (Jun 7, 2018)

Fair warning - I drove the length of I-93 today and back.  There were TONS of police patrolling the interstate.  Laconia bike week starts this weekend, which would explain the police presence.


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## Domeskier (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant wait to learn about the thrifty, money-saving tactics the poor of Manhattan employ for their sushi.



The people fishing in the East River need to set up sushi carts along the Harlem River drive so the folks commuting up to Westchester can pat themselves on the back for adventuring to “ethnic” businesses while getting the cheapest and freshest sushi in all of Manhattan....


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## JimG. (Jun 7, 2018)

Hawk said:


> This thread is very interesting because it has opinions and perspectives from a wide range of age groups and geographical locations.  But if you take a step back and think about what people are saying about living in VT, I find it comical the talk about costs and the general tone of frugality.  The majority of people on here are people that work good jobs and live fairly comfortably.  They ski a bunch and also do other things that are voluntary cash spending items.  Skiing is expensive.  Living in the city is expensive.  When I hear people actually stop at carts to shop produce to save what, a few dollars?  I just kills me.  If you live an expensive life style then own it.  Complaining about taxes and expensive lift tickets is certainly a first world problem.  Just a thought to ponder.
> 
> I have taken to the opinion that life is short and I am not going to die a rich man.  I plan to spend every last dime now while I have good health and mobility.



Finally a voice of reason. Right on!


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## Funky_Catskills (Jun 8, 2018)

If my life wasn't so tied to NYC right now - I'd consider this..


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## mister moose (Jun 8, 2018)

Kleetus said:


> $150 an hour for the airplane cost is about right. That's about the going rate for small single-engine piston rental aircraft these days.





BenedictGomez said:


> Interesting info.  I wonder what it is all-in, plane, pilot, etc...



Looks like they operate Cessna 182s, based on a photo it's a 2008 model worth 200k.  Replacement 450k.  

Hourly costs are roughly

Fuel 13gph @ $5.50   72  (likely less if they patrol at slow speeds)
Engine reserves …….14
Maintenance...……... 40 (est, based on performing 100hr inspections)

Total hourly cost.. $126

Fixed costs would include one or two policemen (Yes, cops are pilots too) insurance, & hangar if they use one.  Lots of single engine planes live outside.

So estimate salary, insurance ($3,000) and parking/hangar and divide by the number of flight hours per year.

I'll go with $60,000 plus 35,000 in taxes/benefits, and outdoor storage at $100/month.

45,000 citations a year for 7 aircraft is 6,428 tickets a year per aircraft.  If you can deliver one offender to the ground crew every 10 minutes, that would take about 1,000 flight hours.  That happens to be about a full time job.

So the hundred grand in fixed costs, for a thousand flight hours is another $100 per hour, total per flight hour, $226.  

So for 6 tickets per hour, the cost per ticket is ~$37.

(I guessed at a FL cops salary.  Add in hangar costs if applicable.  I did not include depreciation or interest, States tend to buy new, and these aircraft are likely paid for.  Your mileage may vary.)


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## x10003q (Jun 8, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Looks like they operate Cessna 182s, based on a photo it's a 2008 model worth 200k.  Replacement 450k.
> 
> Hourly costs are roughly
> 
> ...



According to this link - FL cost for aircraft is $150/hour
http://fightyourspeedingticket.com/types-speed-measurement-devices/aircraft-speeding-tickets/

To write 6 tickets per hour they would need at least 4-6 officers on the ground if you figure 20 minutes (10 minutes is not enough time) to do a single ticket. Using aircraft to catch speeders never makes financial sense. I would guess 4-6 officers can write almost as many tickets without all the aircraft costs. I have been going up and down the NYS Thruway from NJ to Albany for almost 40 years and I have never seen police aircraft. The same is true for the Northway from Albany to the exit for Lake Placid.

The only time an aircraft might be helpful is when there is a nut job pushing 140, but by the time the aircraft got up on the air, the nut job might be 3 counties over.:wink:


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2018)

I'm perfectly fine with it not making financial sense.  If it did, that aircraft would be out a lot more.

In all likelihood they got some sort of federal grant for highway safety that paid for it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 8, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> *I'm perfectly fine with it not making financial sense.*



I assume that can only mean that you believe it's a deterrent.  I, for one, personally do not agree.   

I've never even so much as batted and eyelash when I see those signs, because like everyone else in this thread has stated, we know it's a once-in-4 blue moons it's actually operational.

Just (another) waste of money IMHO.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I assume that can only mean that you believe it's a deterrent.  I, for one, personally do not agree.
> 
> I've never even so much as batted and eyelash when I see those signs, because like everyone else in this thread has stated, we know it's a once-in-4 blue moons it's actually operational.
> 
> Just (another) waste of money IMHO.



Oh, I don’t believe that it is a deterrent.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 8, 2018)

Had to be at least 30 chase vehicles over a 10-15 mile span. All different sorts that they could stick blue lights in or on. Not just standard Trooper's cruisers, probably a ton of drug confiscation vehicles too. 86 in a 70... $243 in 2012.

They just scan your license, and key in your registration. In car laser printer prints out a full page ticket in seconds, they don't even hand write them anymore... just "printing money" as fast as possible.


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## mister moose (Jun 8, 2018)

x10003q said:


> According to this link - FL cost for aircraft is $150/hour
> http://fightyourspeedingticket.com/types-speed-measurement-devices/aircraft-speeding-tickets/
> 
> To write 6 tickets per hour they would need at least 4-6 officers on the ground if you figure 20 minutes (10 minutes is not enough time) to do a single ticket. Using aircraft to catch speeders never makes financial sense. I would guess 4-6 officers can write almost as many tickets without all the aircraft costs. I have been going up and down the NYS Thruway from NJ to Albany for almost 40 years and I have never seen police aircraft. The same is true for the Northway from Albany to the exit for Lake Placid.
> ...



I read the thread, I saw the $150 figure.  "Flight cost" is vague, and there is no way it includes operational costs like pilot salary.  I was provided additional information on what it costs to operate an airplane, something most press always gets wrong.  Also, State operations like this one are usually loath to quote detailed cost figures, as they are always way higher than the private sector.

Unless you know what to look for, you won't see the aircraft.  They are not 100 feet overhead with flashing blue lights.  And when they are overhead, or nearly so, most people have this thing called a roof that obstructs vision upwards.

I imagine the idea is centered around defeating Waze and radar detector users, not competing with the cost of ground based tickets.  I do know that one aircraft can keep several ground cars busy.

And trust me, nobody dispatches a Ce 182 on the ground to catch a speeder doing 140.  (Many high end sports cars can out run a CE-182)​


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2018)

Back on topic—VT Digger reported that 800 people responded to the offer.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## mbedle (Jun 9, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Back on topic—VT Digger reported that 800 people responded to the offer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I wonder how many of them realized its a matching grant up to 5k per year...


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## machski (Jun 9, 2018)

CoolMike said:


> Yes - for sure it was bad luck.  I do think it had to do with the relatively recent change to the speed limit along that stretch of road.  I got this ticket the same year they changed the limit (3-4 years ago?).


Also, part of the legislation increased the base ticket amount in the 70MPH zones higher than what it is in 65MPH ones.  Still is that way, but I'm sure after the initial focus, state police have likely gone back to higher thresholds.  I routinely do 76 right by cops on 93 in 70 and have had zero problems.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I wonder how many of them realized its a matching grant up to 5k per year...



Don't know.  But the cost of private planes and speed limit debate are much more interesting at this point!  :lol:


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## mbedle (Jun 10, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't know.  But the cost of private planes and speed limit debate are much more interesting at this point!  :lol:



LOL, good one!


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## John9 (Jun 10, 2018)

I thought about this before this promotion.  Everything I read says salary is significantly lower than NJ tri state area.  Ok fine. House prices are the same, in many cases more than my area of NJ, Morris county. How can anyone live there,  in any of the Top 10 or so places to live in VT, not middle of nowhere, when pay is much less, but homes are more expensive?


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## benski (Jun 10, 2018)

John9 said:


> I thought about this before this promotion.  Everything I read says salary is significantly lower than NJ tri state area.  Ok fine. House prices are the same, in many cases more than my area of NJ, Morris county. How can anyone live there,  in any of the Top 10 or so places to live in VT, not middle of nowhere, when pay is much less, but homes are more expensive?



You have a lot more low wage jobs in Vermont than New Jersey. If you compared doctors to doctors or cops to cops it would work out much better.


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## John9 (Jun 10, 2018)

Ok, so besides cops and doctors,  who can afford it? Higher home prices and lower salaries, great combination. 

I also looked at CO, huge job market in Denver. Any nice Denver suburb makes NJ look cheap! 

A nice 2000 square foot, 3 bed, 2 bath home on any amount of land, .25 to 1 ac is so much more expensive than Morris county NJ.


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## mbedle (Jun 10, 2018)

John9 said:


> Ok, so besides cops and doctors,  who can afford it? Higher home prices and lower salaries, great combination.
> 
> I also looked at CO, huge job market in Denver. Any nice Denver suburb makes NJ look cheap!
> 
> A nice 2000 square foot, 3 bed, 2 bath home on any amount of land, .25 to 1 ac is so much more expensive than Morris county NJ.



Are you sure about that? What part of Morris county are you from? There is a pretty big swing in prices in that county. As far as average home prices, Vermont ranks around 27th and New Jersey ranks around 9.


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## John9 (Jun 10, 2018)

From what I see, if my house was in Burlington VT, it would  easily be worth 100k more than it is in a nice town in western Morris county NJ.  Doesn't matter,  I'm stuck here.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 10, 2018)

benski said:


> You have a lot more low wage jobs in Vermont than New Jersey. If you compared doctors to doctors or cops to cops it would work out much better.



That’s not really true.  Most professional jobs pay less in Vermont.  Neonatal nurses, for example, make 11% less than the national average (32nd out of 50 states)

I would say that is pretty typical.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 10, 2018)

John9 said:


> *if my house was in Burlington VT, it would  easily be worth 100k more than it is in a nice town in western Morris county NJ.*



I find that generally hard to believe.  That said, there are some cheaper areas of Morris County, so I guess it all depends.  But there's no way you're finding a cheaper comp in Madison or Chatham than you are in Burlington VT.   Heck, I doubt Burlington is more expensive than Morristown.


EDIT:  Also, FWIW, I believe homes are currently overvalued in most American markets, and definitely in Vermont.


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## Edd (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:  Also, FWIW, I believe homes are currently overvalued in most American markets, and definitely in Vermont.



Amen brother.


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I find that generally hard to believe.  That said, there are some cheaper areas of Morris County, so I guess it all depends.  But there's no way you're finding a cheaper comp in Madison or Chatham than you are in Burlington VT.   Heck, I doubt Morristown is more expensive than Burlington.
> 
> 
> EDIT:  Also, FWIW, I believe homes are currently overvalued in most American markets, and definitely in Vermont.



And yet, try and rebuild a similar place to any real estate listing, and I guarantee you it would be more expensive to build new. 

There are a few areas where it wouldn't, like Jackson, Aspen and the like, but in most markets, I find it hard to say real estate is overvalued for this reason alone. 

You can buy a farmhouse on 10 acres in most areas of VT for sub 200k. Try and build that. The barn alone with run you probably more than that unless you are Amish.

People just like to complain that housing is to expensive because you have to pay for it no matter what, whether it is renting or owning. You have to have it. VT is expensive for pretty much every reason a place is desirable other than jobs. Kinda like every other resort town in existence. 

Of course, take that all with a grain of salt as I've oriented my life around putting up with shitty pay to live in paradise, so it doesn't really grind my gears.


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## raisingarizona (Jun 11, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Actually, retired folks with disposable income are exactly what Vermont needs. They add no kids to the schools, pay property taxes and increase the need for service jobs. If these retirees come from the Wash-Boston area, it is likely they have children/family that would be in driving distance. This would mean more money being spent in Vermont.



That humid, bitterly cold winter air isn't so nice on retirement aged bones and joints.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 11, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> And yet, try and rebuild a similar place to any real estate listing, and* I guarantee you it would be more expensive to build new. *



That shouldn't surprise you, with few exceptions it's far more expensive to contract and build a new home than it is to buy an existing home.   This is well-known; in economics "new home sales" and "existing home sales" are separate data rather than simply calling it home sales, partially for this reason (and others).


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> That shouldn't surprise you, with few exceptions it's far more expensive to contract and build a new home than it is to buy an existing home.   This is well-known; in economics "new home sales" and "existing home sales" are separate data rather than simply calling it home sales, partially for this reason (and others).




I never said I was surprised. I'm just saying its hard to say something is overvalued when to recreate it would be substantially more expensive.


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## x10003q (Jun 12, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> That humid, bitterly cold winter air isn't so nice on retirement aged bones and joints.



Not for skiers and riders  :-D


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## machski (Jun 13, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> No; it just helps show more how you really arent aware of how critical Silicon Valley is to the economics of California; it's the only thing keeping that bat**** crazy, completely financially insane and irresponsible state from going belly-up.
> If you removed Silicon Valley from CA, the state would look like an apocalyptic biblical "end of days", with violence, crime, fire, and everything short of cannibalism.



Well, California may be get a chance to find out.  Or make that California and Southern California.  Northern California should be fine based on BG's assertion.
USA TODAY: Voters to decide if California should be 3 states

https://usat.ly/2t40hqo

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## deadheadskier (Jun 13, 2018)

It's not just Silicon Valley anymore.  San Diego is loaded with tech companies. 

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## thetrailboss (Jun 13, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> It's not just Silicon Valley anymore.  San Diego is loaded with tech companies.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



When I first visited in 2014 I heard from a lot of folks there that indeed the tech business makes or breaks the California state budget.  In good years the state rakes in the cash and has surpluses.  In the bad years the state is beyond broke.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 13, 2018)

machski said:


> Well, California may be get a chance to find out.  Or make that California and Southern California.  Northern California should be fine based on BG's assertion.
> USA TODAY:* Voters to decide if California should be 3 states*



Never gonna' happen, even if voters vote "YES" on that proposal, State of California is run top to bottom by Democrats who would not allow that to pass due to presidential elections.  Right now Democrats get 55 e.c. votes for California to 0 for Republicans because they swamp the Republican north, but if you carved out the 3 states their advantage would probably be something like 39 to 16.  That's a netted loss of 32 e.c. votes for Democrats, so they'll never let that become law.


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## Hawk (Jun 14, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never gonna' happen, even if voters vote "YES" on that proposal, State of California is run top to bottom by Democrats who would not allow that to pass due to presidential elections.  Right now Democrats get 55 e.c. votes for California to 0 for Republicans because they swamp the Republican north, but if you carved out the 3 states their advantage would probably be something like 39 to 16.  That's a netted loss of 32 e.c. votes for Democrats, so they'll never let that become law.


Just looking at the presidential elections over the past century, it appears that the Republicans have done pretty well in the elections in spite of California's Democratic leanings. I have no issues with the democrats in California.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> *Just looking at the presidential elections over the past century, it appears that the Republicans have done pretty well in the elections in spite of California's Democratic leanings.*



You cant look at state politics over a century, way too long a timeframe.

The last time a Republican POTUS candidate won in California was 30 years ago (Bush), and the math was much more favorable to Republicans then.  It would be almost impossible for a Republican presidential candidate to win California today, it would basically take a negative black swan event against the Democratic candidate.


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## Hawk (Jun 14, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> You cant look at state politics over a century, way too long a timeframe.
> 
> The last time a Republican POTUS candidate won in California was 30 years ago (Bush), and the math was much more favorable to Republicans then.  It would be almost impossible for a Republican presidential candidate to win California today, it would basically take a negative black swan event against the Democratic candidate.


My point was that the country has elected republican Presidents even with California voting Democrat.  So I do not see the point of splitting up the state just so the republicans can get more electoral votes.


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## benski (Jun 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> My point was that the country has elected republican Presidents even with California voting Democrat.  So I do not see the point of splitting up the state just so the republicans can get more electoral votes.



It could swing a close election though like 2000.


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## Jully (Jun 14, 2018)

It is unfortunate that a state's future is at all tied to its implications for elections. If CA thinks that it is best for the state to split it, then it should split. Election trends are likely to look way different 30 years from now, so in the long run it really doesn't matter.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2018)

Jully said:


> It is unfortunate that a state's future is at all tied to its implications for elections. If CA thinks that it is best for the state to split it, then it should split. *Election trends are likely to look way different 30 years from now, so in the long run it really doesn't matter.*



But all politicians care about is the "here and now" and the "what directly affects me" though.


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## Jully (Jun 14, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> But all politicians care about is the "here and now" and the "what directly affects me" though.



Exactly


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## speden (Jun 14, 2018)

States like California and Texas probably should be split up since they are crazy big in terms of population and economic output. And maybe small states like Vermont and New Hampshire should be merged.

I agree that politicians have a very short term outlook of winning the next election, and don't think about the long term, so fat chance any state lines are going to be redrawn.

You can see the short term outlook with the rampant gerrymandering (sadly invented in Boston) that they use to guarantee certain seats in congress will be one party or the other. But when you're just competing with your own party during an election for a seat, then naturally the more extreme person for that party will tend to win. So the short term gain of gerrymandering has the long term effect of promoting really extreme views in each party and the polarization of everything.

I couldn't help but laugh at the media reaction after Trump's Singapore summit. Fox news was touting it as a massive success and the end of the nuclear threat from North Korea, while MSNBC was saying OMG he promised to stop the super important war games with South Korea and got nothing in return. The truth is somewhere in the middle that it was just a positive first step, and things could go either way from here.


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## Hawk (Jun 14, 2018)

I almost didn't even vote this last election because I didn't like any of the options.  It amazes me that the parties can not come up with new blood that has new and interesting ideas.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I almost didn't even vote this last election because I didn't like any of the options.  It amazes me that the parties can not come up with new blood that has new and interesting ideas.


The candidates that advance and do well are propped up by lobbying interests.  Until campaign finance laws change, I see it always being much of the same from both sides.  Though Trump is probably the best modern example of an outsider breaking that mold. 

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## JimG. (Jun 14, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I almost didn't even vote this last election because I didn't like any of the options.  It amazes me that the parties can not come up with new blood that has new and interesting ideas.



Mainstream politicians don't care about interesting ideas. 

They only care about lining their own pockets and those of the lobbying groups. That's pretty easy to do and it amazes me that over 350 million people can't/don't try to organize to remove them all.

The current climate of partisan extremism makes it even easier. As a general population we are pretty stupid.


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## AdironRider (Jun 14, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The candidates that advance and do well are propped up by lobbying interests.  Until campaign finance laws change, I see it always being much of the same from both sides.  Though Trump is probably the best modern example of an outsider breaking that mold.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



And that was only really because he was able to self finance the first half of the campaign pretty much. I know he got reimbursed for a bunch of stuff, but he still needed the cash to bankroll it for a bit. 

Says a lot when you basically have to be a billionaire or sell your soul to special interests to be a successful candidate though.


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## benski (Jun 14, 2018)

Jully said:


> It is unfortunate that a state's future is at all tied to its implications for elections. If CA thinks that it is best for the state to split it, then it should split. Election trends are likely to look way different 30 years from now, so in the long run it really doesn't matter.



This statement makes a mockery of the Senate and electoral college.


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## Jully (Jun 14, 2018)

benski said:


> This statement makes a mockery of the Senate and electoral college.



In what way?


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## machski (Jun 14, 2018)

speden said:


> States like California and Texas probably should be split up since they are crazy big in terms of population and economic output. And maybe small states like Vermont and New Hampshire should be merged.
> 
> I agree that politicians have a very short term outlook of winning the next election, and don't think about the long term, so fat chance any state lines are going to be redrawn.
> 
> ...


No, NH has no interest in merging with VT, thank you.  Of course, if the municipality of Killington would like to try and Cecede again from VT and join NH, we would be happy to entertain that.

On the flip side, the CA article notes that while the measure for the requisite 800K or so signatures, it likely stands no chance of actually passing.  The person who fronted the moment apparently proposed to break CA up into like 8 states in the past too.

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## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2018)

machski said:


> No, NH has no interest in merging with VT, thank you.  Of course, if the municipality of Killington would like to try and Cecede again from VT and join NH, we would be happy to entertain that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah, whatever happened to that?!


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## benski (Jun 14, 2018)

Jully said:


> In what way?



You just explained how the Senate and electoral college make otherwise meaningless geographic divisions politically important.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2018)

Meaningless?


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## Terry (Jun 15, 2018)

What happened to the no politics discussed policy?


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## Smellytele (Jun 15, 2018)

Terry said:


> What happened to the no politics discussed policy?



No one has really taken a side just pointing out general government stupidness.


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## JimG. (Jun 15, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> No one has really taken a side just pointing out general government stupidness.



Precisely.


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## speden (Oct 1, 2018)

SNL's take on Vermont


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2018)

speden said:


> SNL's take on Vermont



I thought it was funny.


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## speden (Oct 2, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought it was funny.



I liked how they threw in a reference to Subaru's at the end. Reminded me of some threads here.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 2, 2018)

haha that was pretty good. Was that from the Kanye West episode?


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## tnt1234 (Oct 2, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The candidates that advance and do well are propped up by lobbying interests.  Until campaign finance laws change, I see it always being much of the same from both sides.  Though Trump is probably the best modern example of an outsider breaking that mold.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Well, on the GOP side it's gotten a bit more complicated.  The candidates that do well are those that are embraced by right wing media, who give countless dollars in free advertising in return for bombastic statements and far right attitudes that in turn drive ratings to the media outlets/

This had not really been true on the Presidential level until trump, but has been true on the house/senate (particularly the house) for quite some time.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 2, 2018)

But getting back to the OP - yes, I want to live in vermont.  Can't see how this program helps me though.  No way I can do my job remotely.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 2, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> bombastic statements and far right attitudes that in turn drive ratings to the media outlets/



inconvenient facts


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## triguy914 (Oct 3, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> But getting back to the OP - yes, I want to live in vermont.  Can't see how this program helps me though.  No way I can do my job remotely.



just got a place on a lake near okemo. next year when last kid is off to college, i plan on living there a few weeks at a time, working remotely and skiing magic, killington or heading up to brandon gap.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 3, 2018)

triguy914 said:


> just got a place on a lake near okemo. next year when last kid is off to college, i plan on living there a few weeks at a time, working remotely and skiing magic, killington or heading up to brandon gap.



Nice.  What lake?  I browse VT and upstate NY real estate occasionally looking for that perfect lake front mountain getaway.


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## tumbler (Oct 3, 2018)

Not a lake but there are some pretty cheap condos at the base of Magic for sale...


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 3, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> Nice.  What lake?  I browse VT and upstate NY real estate occasionally looking for that perfect lake front mountain getaway.


I'm guessing one of the lakes off 100 on the way to Killington. 

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## tnt1234 (Oct 4, 2018)

Intriguing....


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