# 3rd Death at Hunter this season on Hunter North   (ignore it Funky)



## catskillman (Mar 11, 2019)

I won't tell you the new name going around for this terrain.........but you can just imagine.......

https://oldies935.iheart.com/featur...hird-skier-dies-at-hunter-mountain-this-year/


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## Cornhead (Mar 11, 2019)

Hmm, makes you wonder, doesn't it? Something must be amiss with these trails,  that's an awfully high mortality rate, and the season's not over. Sorry to the family for their loss. Be careful out there, especially on Hunter's new terrain, apparently. Any plans to fence these trails?

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## John9 (Mar 11, 2019)

Something must be wrong with the design of the trails. Hunter will have to redesign them and rate them black. Liability wavers are not absolute, sure lawsuits will be coming. 

I watched a promo video Hunter made for these trails, the whole point of the expansion was to expand intermediate level runs, someone seems to have made a mistake.


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## So Inclined (Mar 11, 2019)

It's terrible to have one fatality in a season; three since Christmas is horrifying. 
I didn't get over to Hunter North on Saturday, but the conditions where I did ski were pretty wonderful all things considered. However - the crowds on Mossy Brook in the afternoon made for a very hair-raising run. One time down Mossy (at the same time the seasonal programs parade temporarily shut Madison Ave), one sighting of a hard collision between two skiers in the middle of the trail, and that was enough. Tragedies aside, Mossy and the Belt are the scariest trails on that mountain on a Saturday.


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## catskillman (Mar 12, 2019)

So Inclined said:


> It's terrible to have one fatality in a season; three since Christmas is horrifying.
> I didn't get over to Hunter North on Saturday, but the conditions where I did ski were pretty wonderful all things considered. However - the crowds on Mossy Brook in the afternoon made for a very hair-raising run. One time down Mossy (at the same time the seasonal programs parade temporarily shut Madison Ave), one sighting of a hard collision between two skiers in the middle of the trail, and that was enough. Tragedies aside, Mossy and the Belt are the scariest trails on that mountain on a Saturday.



Can you imagine their daily meeting?  That safety man they hired must be ready to jump after 3 deaths.  I am sure Russ is out..........

Mossy and the Belt have always been scary, Mossy is in the shade so they snow stays firm, and gets skied off just like everything else.  The last pitch drop takes a lot of beginners buy surprise and they panic.


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## legalskier (Mar 12, 2019)

From the Daily Freeman: He _"died Saturday after losing control and falling on his face and chest on Hunter's Twilight Trail....The accident occurred about 3 p.m., when [he] was skiing with his sister and a friend...[He] was responsive while being taken to Albany Medical Center but was declared dead at 7:18 p.m. Saturday. A preliminary cause of death provided to state police by the Albany County Coroner’s Office was cardiac contusion....an autopsy was scheduled for Monday.''_

Sounds like he did a jump- are the rollers still at the bottom of Twilight?




John9 said:


> Something must be wrong with the design of the trails. Hunter will have to redesign them and rate them black. Liability wavers are not absolute, sure lawsuits will be coming.
> 
> I watched a promo video Hunter made for these trails, the whole point of the expansion was to expand intermediate level runs, someone seems to have made a mistake.



_''...a Hunter spokeswoman said Monday that the trails will not be closed....Hunter Mountain spokeswoman Katie O'Connor said the three deaths this year have been 'thoroughly investigated' by the state police and state Department of Labor, and *the labor department says the mountain's trails have 'proper signage*."'_

https://www.dailyfreeman.com/news/p...cle_18c89a44-4434-11e9-a77e-fb0a2751a5f9.html


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## tamedog (Mar 12, 2019)

twilight is always very icy and should have been a black diamond from the start 

sad


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## kingslug (Mar 12, 2019)

The Labor department..ahhh..the experts at trail ratings??


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## skiur (Mar 12, 2019)

Trail ratings vary from mountain to mountain, so I cant see how that can have anything to do with it.  Maybe someone needs to come up with a criteria to make ratings universal from mountain to mountain, but until that happens a blue at one mountain can be a double black at another.


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## kingslug (Mar 12, 2019)

This has been pretty much my point. How can those trails be blue/black when upper K27 is double black, Hellgate and Eisenhower black, etc...


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## JimG. (Mar 12, 2019)

I shouldn't generalize so I'll say that trail ratings at any mountain do little to discourage folks from skiing way over their heads. It's a people problem. 

Putting up a gate with a warning won't help either, unless the gate is locked. I think those things actually encourage poor decision making.

Some regrading in certain areas, more fencing and some padding, and better signage will at least minimize the mountain's liability exposure.


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## catskillman (Mar 12, 2019)

_''...a Hunter spokeswoman said Monday that the trails will not be closed....Hunter Mountain spokeswoman Katie O'Connor said the three deaths this year have been 'thoroughly investigated' by the state police and state Department of Labor, and *the labor department says the mountain's trails have 'proper signage*."'_

https://www.dailyfreeman.com/news/p...cle_18c89a44-4434-11e9-a77e-fb0a2751a5f9.html[/QUOTE]

Of course they won't close the trails - nothing says guilty better.


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## catskillman (Mar 12, 2019)

Tom is pondering how to leap over the snowmaking pipes to reach the new powder in the Balsam Bypass Glades












2 Comments
​https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reacti...entifier=10156290530209503&av=100000495911956_https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reacti...entifier=10156290530209503&av=100000495911956__1818_










_Hunter Mountain spokeswoman Katie O'Connor said the three deaths this year have been 'thoroughly investigated' by the state police and state Department of Labor, and *the labor department says the mountain's trails have 'proper signage*."'

Yeah DOL the signs are there, but you have to hop over snowmaking pipes!!!!!!!!!  Seriously ??????  _


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I shouldn't generalize so I'll say that trail ratings at any mountain do little to discourage folks from skiing way over their heads. It's a people problem.
> 
> Putting up a gate with a warning won't help either, unless the gate is locked. I think those things actually encourage poor decision making.
> 
> Some regrading in certain areas, more fencing and some padding, and better signage will at least minimize the mountain's liability exposure.


I would agree with all of this plus ask the question, does Hunter have enough ski patrol devoted to the troublesome areas?  

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## legalskier (Mar 12, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Some regrading in certain areas, more fencing and some padding, and better signage will at least minimize the mountain's liability exposure.



Jim, this seems to suggest they don't have to:
"Operators have statutory duties to provide warnings....Operators must also inspect run conditions twice a day and pad lift towers. Skiers must maintain general 'control' and ski within their abilities, having first familiarized themselves with the course."
https://www.chalatlaw.com/skilaw/ski-laws-by-state/new-york-ski-law


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## drjeff (Mar 12, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Tom is pondering how to leap over the snowmaking pipes to reach the new powder in the Balsam Bypass Glades
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One has to rationally wonder IF there's not enough snow to cover some snowmaking pipes, which generally aren't much more than a foot off the ground, is there even enough snow in the glade pictured to ski it, and not trash one's skis?? :idea:


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## JimG. (Mar 12, 2019)

legalskier said:


> Jim, this seems to suggest they don't have to:
> "Operators have statutory duties to provide warnings....Operators must also inspect run conditions twice a day and pad lift towers. Skiers must maintain general 'control' and ski within their abilities, having first familiarized themselves with the course."
> https://www.chalatlaw.com/skilaw/ski-laws-by-state/new-york-ski-law



The wording does seem to indicate that. 

So I'll have to default to the old saying there is a difference between being right and doing the right thing.

I doubt Peaks/Hunter wants to monitor monthly fatality reports.


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## tumbler (Mar 12, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Tom is pondering how to leap over the snowmaking pipes to reach the new powder in the Balsam Bypass Glades
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks a bit thin...


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## Vaughn (Mar 12, 2019)

drjeff said:


> One has to rationally wonder IF there's not enough snow to cover some snowmaking pipes, which generally aren't much more than a foot off the ground, is there even enough snow in the glade pictured to ski it, and not trash one's skis?? :idea:



Counterpoint - the bottom of Slide of Hans at Magic has pipes right across the bottom that you have to ski around to get off the trail.


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## catskillman (Mar 12, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I would agree with all of this plus ask the question, does Hunter have enough ski patrol devoted to the troublesome areas?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app




No.  And they were cut FTE's from last year!  And they are all burnt out, tired, and have issues with what they have had to witness this year..............  Just ask any of them  and they will just groan and shake their heads as they have a mountain and HIPPA gag order. 

The mtn needs to double their salary.........


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## raisingarizona (Mar 12, 2019)

I doubt the trail ratings are the root for these accidents. It’s just a bad string of events I’d bet. 

Someone mentioned fencing? That’s definitely what hunter needs more of! Man that’s one of the ugliest ski mountains I’ve ever seen.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2019)

catskillman said:


> No.  And they were cut FTE's from last year!  And they are all burnt out, tired, and have issues with what they have had to witness this year..............  Just ask any of them  and they will just groan and shake their heads as they have a mountain and HIPPA gag order.
> 
> The mtn needs to double their salary.........



Peaks strikes again


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## raisingarizona (Mar 13, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Tom is pondering how to leap over the snowmaking pipes to reach the new powder in the Balsam Bypass Glades
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hunter has pipes lining their trails like that? I’d hate to catch an edge and throw my head into that thing. Jesus that place is sketchy AF.


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## So Inclined (Mar 13, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Hunter has pipes lining their trails like that? I’d hate to catch an edge and throw my head into that thing. Jesus that place is sketchy AF.



That is near the top of one of the new trails. There's only a couple new trails that have pipes like that in such exposed positions, and they're in places (far off the trail's edge, down in a gulley) that no one would ever ski over - except if they're trying to access trees. 
I've skied around/hopped over many pipes at many different areas on the way to trees off groomers. How else are they supposed to get water up the mountain?


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## Cornhead (Mar 13, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Hunter has pipes lining their trails like that? I’d hate to catch an edge and throw my head into that thing. Jesus that place is sketchy AF.


It's all part of communing with nature. That, and the lifts, and the snow guns, and the waffle hut...[emoji6]

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## abc (Mar 13, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> It's all part of communing with nature. That, and the lifts, and the snow guns, and the waffle hut...[emoji6]


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## Not Sure (Mar 13, 2019)

With the shitty weather freeze thaw and ice this year I’ve noticed a big difference by skipping tuning my skis . From what I read they were a “Few times a year “ skiers. Not saying that is the cause but maybe a contributing factor? Sad all around


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## tumbler (Mar 13, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Hunter has pipes lining their trails like that? I’d hate to catch an edge and throw my head into that thing. Jesus that place is sketchy AF.



Many mountains have snowmaking pipe like that, its much cheaper and easier to weld or zap lock in the parking lot and drag it up the hill than burying it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 13, 2019)

i've contended with many a snowmaking pipe in many areas all over the northeast to get in or out of trees, including at magic this past weekend (i want to see skier's right of sorcerer). really nothing to see there...


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 13, 2019)

So Inclined said:


> There's only a couple new trails that have pipes like that in such exposed positions, and *they're in places (far off the trail's edge, down in a gulley) that no one would ever ski over *- except if they're trying to access trees.



Whether or not someone would intentionally ski over that pipe, what is depicted in that photo is a needlessly dangerous situation (not to mention, ugly).   Typically the placement of these pipes is far more thoughtful, and for good reason.


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## skiur (Mar 13, 2019)

While it isnt uncommon to see pipes like that in the northeast, If there is an entrance to an on the map glade with sign and everything, the pipe should be buried at the entrance.


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## Killingtime (Mar 13, 2019)

Unofficial Networks just posted this on their FB page. Kind of surprised at some of the needlessly nasty comments. Glad to see A-Zoners showing a lot of class when it comes to these tragic events.


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## So Inclined (Mar 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whether or not someone would intentionally ski over that pipe, what is depicted in that photo is a needlessly dangerous situation (not to mention, ugly).   Typically the placement of these pipes is far more thoughtful, and for good reason.





skiur said:


> While it isnt uncommon to see pipes like that in the northeast, If there is an entrance to an on the map glade with sign and everything, the pipe should be buried at the entrance.



Totally agree with both of you. I haven't been in these particular glades yet (Hunter really hasn't gotten enough snow to drop into the woods there) but when they finally opened Twilight, where that shot was taken, I was a bit baffled. They couldn't bury a ten yard section of pipe as an entrance? Bizarre and ugly to say the least. Maybe they'll remedy that in the future - though clearly there are bigger priorities.


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## Smellytele (Mar 13, 2019)

At Sunday river I think there is a glade that you have to ski over pipes - Flying Monkey?


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## danimals (Mar 13, 2019)

If the snowmaking pipe wasnt there you would just hit your head on a jagged rock instead. A better year would have that covered in snow.


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## andrec10 (Mar 13, 2019)

I bet the pipes will be covered this summer when they regrade some of the areas.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 13, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> It's all part of communing with nature. That, and the lifts, and the snow guns, and the waffle hut...[emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah ok. Hunter goes above and beyond to look like total shit. Maybe you are immune to it.....I’m not. I’ve never seen such a ghetto AF looking ski mountain. Have fun there guy.


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## ss20 (Mar 13, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> At Sunday river I think there is a glade that you have to ski over pipes - Flying Monkey?



Yeah...Hollywood over on Barker.  Very bizarre and I will ask Machski about it in the Sunday River thread.  BIG diameter pipe that goes straight through the glade...couldn't figure out why.  It traverses across all of Barker (from what I could tell).  Have no idea why it's there.


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## Cornhead (Mar 13, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Yeah ok. Hunter goes above and beyond to look like total shit. Maybe you are immune to it.....I’m not. I’ve never seen such a ghetto AF looking ski mountain. Have fun there guy.


I'm not a big Hunter fan, or Hunter skier, for that matter. Only been once this year, but it has grown on me, despite the fact it looks more like a strip mining operation than a ski hill. Their snowmaking prowess is undeniable, and in lean snow times they can be counted on to provide a better product than any other hill in my vicinity, preferably on a weekday. But even weekends aren't unbearable. Someone may knock you out of both of your bindings, they have, but it's a given. I was looking forward to skiing the new terrain.

It's a shame Peak dropped the ball on the North pod. It's hard to attribute three deaths, so far, in one season, on one pod, on bad luck. There must be something inherently dangerous about these trails. The fact they were tagged blue trails initially is mind boggling. Aren't they suing the company that did the work on them for being too steep? Maybe instead of blue squares they should have had signs that read.

WARNING! This trail is supposed to be a blue square. We were too stupid to realize the terrain was too steep to be a blue square when we designed it. To add to our stupidity we designed off camber turns into the trail. Falls may very well result in sliding off the trail into the trees. If you are not confident in your ability to stay upright, you might want to ski another trail.

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## raisingarizona (Mar 13, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> I'm not a big Hunter fan, or Hunter skier, for that matter. Only been once this year, but it has grown on me, despite the fact it looks more like a strip mining operation than a ski hill. Their snowmaking prowess is undeniable, and in lean snow times they can be counted on to provide a better product than any other hill in my vicinity, preferably on a weekday. But even weekends aren't unbearable. Someone may knock you out of both of your bindings, they have, but it's a given. I was looking forward to skiing the new terrain.
> 
> It's a shame Peak dropped the ball on the North pod. It's hard to attribute three deaths, so far, in one season, on one pod, on bad luck. There must be something inherently dangerous about these trails. The fact they were tagged blue trails initially is mind boggling. Aren't they suing the company that did the work on them for being too steep? Maybe instead of blue squares they should have had signs that read.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. They always have killed it with snow making but I couldn’t ever get over the visuals at the place, let alone the weekend crowds.


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## 180 (Mar 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whether or not someone would intentionally ski over that pipe, what is depicted in that photo is a needlessly dangerous situation (not to mention, ugly).   Typically the placement of these pipes is far more thoughtful, and for good reason.



Seriously, every ski resort has pipes above ground and all over the place. Ski areas are not pristine places, the garbage is usually covered up by snow


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## 180 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hunter North is a game changer for the mountain. Trails are clearly not marked properly, and once the dust settles and they spend some time making the access better it will be even more popular.  Wait till we have snow and the glades are in play.  You'll hear even more positive reviews.  3 deaths are horrible, all 20 something males going too fast.  They are fearless these days.....  Plus they leave no moguls to slow folks down.


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## FBGM (Mar 14, 2019)

This is what happens when you build/design and layout this stuff internally with no experience. Just some idiots that think they know what they are doing. Daddy’s son and his buddy. Let’s design some new ski terrain. It will be great. No idea what we are doing. Just cut some runs and call it good. And plaster it with icy snowmaking. 

Hope they get sued.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 14, 2019)

180 said:


> Hunter North is a game changer for the mountain. Trails are clearly not marked properly, and once the dust settles and they spend some time making the access better it will be even more popular.  Wait till we have snow and the glades are in play.  You'll hear even more positive reviews.  3 deaths are horrible, all 20 something males going too fast.  They are fearless these days.....  Plus they leave no moguls to slow folks down.



 I totally agree with us. I ride this thing couple times a week during my lunch and it seems absolutely fine to me. Wide open great pitch  I love Hunter north


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## Cornhead (Mar 14, 2019)

FBGM said:


> This is what happens when you build/design and layout this stuff internally with no experience. Just some idiots that think they know what they are doing. Daddy’s son and his buddy. Let’s design some new ski terrain. It will be great. No idea what we are doing. Just cut some runs and call it good. And plaster it with icy snowmaking.
> 
> Hope they get sued.


The trails must not be hot shot friendly, they're flying around other trails without dying at this rate. Hmm, paging blue boy.

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## legalskier (Mar 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Wide open great pitch  I love Hunter north



I'll second that e-motion.


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## drewfidelic (Mar 14, 2019)

If the snow isn't deep enough to cover the unburied snowmaking pipe, you don't want to be in those trees…


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## andrec10 (Mar 14, 2019)

drewfidelic said:


> If the snow isn't deep enough to cover the unburied snowmaking pipe, you don't want to be in those trees…


Exactly!


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## drjeff (Mar 14, 2019)

drewfidelic said:


> If the snow isn't deep enough to cover the unburied snowmaking pipe, you don't want to be in those trees…



Obvious common sense like that is sometimes lacking in some AZ threads :wink::wink::wink:


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## kingslug (Mar 14, 2019)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCERkIGViIA

Blue mountain double black..with netting for the trees...hmmmm


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## danimals (Mar 14, 2019)

Went today to pickup my pass for next season. I'm currently a blue mountain pa passholder. The new trails at North are tougher than the double blacks at blue, but belt parkway is easier than the blues at blue. I love the new trails, but with the flat light, bumps under the guns you can't really see, steepness and general design of the trails, they need to be blacks.

If Hunter needs real blues, start bribing someone to expand upwards from Hunter one area.








Quite a drop off for a blue.
Also what's up with skeepy hollow not being open ever? West is still closed. 


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## So Inclined (Mar 14, 2019)

danimals said:


> Went today to pickup my pass for next season. I'm currently a blue mountain pa passholder. The new trails at North are tougher than the double blacks at blue, but belt parkway is easier than the blues at blue. I love the new trails, but with the flat light, bumps under the guns you can't really see, steepness and general design of the trails, they need to be blacks.
> 
> If Hunter needs real blues, start bribing someone to expand upwards from Hunter one area.
> 
> ...



Belt is not terribly hard terrain in the abstract (the spot around the new lift makes things considerably hairier), but with heavy weekend crowds and bad conditions (which isn't unusual with big crowds quickly skiing it off) it skis much harder than it should.

Sleepy Hollow - they need to net it or redesign it somehow, otherwise it's a narrow cat track with a nice cliff-ish drop to your right if you can't make short turns.

Forget above Hunter One - that ain't happening, as far as I've been able to tell. They've already got a couple perfectly nice albeit short blues off E Lift, but that only runs on weekends. And then there's Central Park, which hasn't been open more than maybe a day or two in the last couple years (though it was groomed last weekend?!) and the Highlands, which only the racers get to play on. That part of the mountain (anything above C lift) seems like the lowest priority of all.


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## drjeff (Mar 14, 2019)

kingslug said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCERkIGViIA
> 
> Blue mountain double black..with netting for the trees...hmmmm



Yup, B-netting left up along the U16/U19 race hill at Blue during non race/training times.  

It surely can be done. Requires a bunch of often day to day maintenance based on snowmaking and grooming operations, natural snowfall or snow melt, people sliding into the netting, etc, etc, etc

There are certainly many pros and cons to extensive use of portable rolls of b-netting along a trail. With each roughly 50 foot section costing roughly $400 a piece, the cost of lining a half mile trail on both sides can run about 40K, and also then restrict access to any tree terrain that may be along side of that trail while the netting is up. 

Safety netting certainly has its place for day to day ski area operations. Definitely a topic for debate about how much netting should/could be used??


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## tamedog (Mar 14, 2019)

So Inclined said:


> Forget above Hunter One - that ain't happening, as far as I've been able to tell. They've already got a couple perfectly nice albeit short blues off E Lift, but that only runs on weekends. And then there's Central Park, which hasn't been open more than maybe a day or two in the last couple years (though it was groomed last weekend?!) and the Highlands, which only the racers get to play on. That part of the mountain (anything above C lift) seems like the lowest priority of all.



Last Sunday was interesting. It snowed a couple inches overnight, but it was too windy up top, so the F lift and 6 pack were shut down all day. There was no way to ski back to North, so we explored Hunter One a little bit. Central Park was roped off, but a lotta people were cutting in from the woods on WSG. We also hiked Upper Highlands and had Upper/Lower to ourselves since there wasn't any racing going on. I was thinking how nice it would be if they expanded that side of the mountain, but I guess that land isn't theirs to expand on.


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## Not Sure (Mar 14, 2019)

danimals said:


> Went today to pickup my pass for next season. I'm currently a blue mountain pa passholder. The new trails at North are tougher than the double blacks at blue, but belt parkway is easier than the blues at blue. I love the new trails, but with the flat light, bumps under the guns you can't really see, steepness and general design of the trails, they need to be blacks.
> 
> If Hunter needs real blues, start bribing someone to expand upwards from Hunter one area.
> 
> ...



First Guntower on the left ....WTF No Padding .


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## kingslug (Mar 14, 2019)

Yup..one thing i notice out west is they are very careful about padding towers...even in obscure areas..


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## legalskier (Mar 14, 2019)

Anyone notice that the 3 deaths were all young men?  Not kids, not women, not older folk. 
Young men.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2019)

legalskier said:


> Anyone notice that the 3 deaths were all young men?  Not kids, not women, not older folk.
> Young men.



That's consistent with the standard industry statistics.


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## danimals (Mar 14, 2019)

Check out them trenches.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 14, 2019)

danimals said:


> Check out them trenches.



Geez, does that exposed pipe run the entire trail?


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## catskillman (Mar 14, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Geez, does that exposed pipe run the entire trail?




these photo's are putting smiles on the lawyers..........  so unbelievable.  I need to check the stock price - I would not even buy if it got to be a penny stock


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## John9 (Mar 14, 2019)

Never seen trenches like that. That would worry me more than the pipe or unpaded snow gun tower.


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## da-bum (Mar 14, 2019)

Cornhead said:


> I'm not a big Hunter fan, or Hunter skier, for that matter. Only been once this year, but it has grown on me, despite the fact it looks more like a strip mining operation than a ski hill. Their snowmaking prowess is undeniable, and in lean snow times they can be counted on to provide a better product than any other hill in my vicinity, preferably on a weekday. But even weekends aren't unbearable. Someone may knock you out of both of your bindings, they have, but it's a given. I was looking forward to skiing the new terrain.
> 
> It's a shame Peak dropped the ball on the North pod. It's hard to attribute three deaths, so far, in one season, on one pod, on bad luck. There must be something inherently dangerous about these trails. The fact they were tagged blue trails initially is mind boggling. Aren't they suing the company that did the work on them for being too steep? Maybe instead of blue squares they should have had signs that read.
> 
> ...



The off camber turn on twilight threw me off in the begining, especially when that general area is where one is going the fastest, and making wide turns, there would be instances where one is heading right-ward toward those trees, and the turn back toward the left is off-camber.  That is why I resorted to ski overlook more, even though the steep part is much longer.  On overlook, I could bomb that run without worrying about running into obstacles if I slide on the ever present ice.  I only have to worry about those crazy sized whales at the bottom the steeps.

But now, with twilight, I can just not make those large right turn towards the trees, but just head left.  I gain much more speed, but off-camber or not, that large left turn isn't going to cause me to lose my edge.  Its over before I know it.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2019)

da-bum said:


> The off camber turn on twilight threw me off in the begining, especially when that general area is where one is going the fastest, and making wide turns, there would be instances where one is heading right-ward toward those trees, and the turn back toward the left is off-camber.  That is why I resorted to ski overlook more, even though the steep part is much longer.  On overlook, I could bomb that run without worrying about running into obstacles if I slide on the ever present ice.  I only have to worry about those crazy sized whales at the bottom the steeps.
> 
> But now, with twilight, I can just not make those large right turn towards the trees, but just head left.  I gain much more speed, but off-camber or not, that large left turn isn't going to cause me to lose my edge.  Its over before I know it.


So basically what you're saying is that you are regularly skiing terrain beyond your ability level and at a speed at which you can't adjust for obstacles (both natural and man-made) around you. 

Something outlined in the liability statements we all sign before being given a season pass or is printed on the back of a paper ticket for instances just like this.

As for the trail rating thing. Trail ratings from area to area (or even within the same area in instances) are about as consistent as boot flexes from manufacturer to manufacturer. They only give a relative indication of something at that area, and have plenty of variability from within. 

One thing the ski industry may want to look at in the future, is something akin to what much of the golf industry has evolved too with the number of tee markers/boxes per hole. It used to be only 3 markers (women's, men's and championship basically the equivalent of beginner, intermediate and expert trail ratings) now many golf courses have added 2 to 3 or more sets of tee markers to allow for easier or more difficult in between, or in some cases shorter or longer options than the old 3 tee system used to be. 

As much as the ski purist in me would hate to see say a single green, a double green, a green blue, a blue, a double blue, a blue black, a black and a double black signage adopted as an industry standard to further clutter a trail map, given that very few seem to want to address the other factor which is that a significant percentage of skier deaths are from the younger male demographic and very often are caused by people skiing beyond their control/ability for the current conditions, the industry may have to take a long look at how to try and over regulate/warn a small subset of the total number of skiers and riders, who stereotypically may not ski/ride in the most sensible way more often than other demographics.

This is definitely a complex issue, as well as one that stirs up emotions. And if we want some trails (of whatever rating given to them) with some interesting terrain features such as some pitches and double fall lines and curves in the trail routing verses just a homogenized constant pitch straight down the mountain 10+ groomer width wide boulevard, then that does mean that those skiing/riding it have to use a degree of caution, and do so every run. That doesn't always happen for sure....

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## Tdizzle (Mar 15, 2019)

I was up there yesterday and noticed that they took down all of the trail signs for Twilight. They just had one lollipop that had "experts only" hand written in marker on it. The conditions were amazing! I rode most of the day over there because the rest of the mountain got too sticky.


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## Vaughn (Mar 15, 2019)

drjeff said:


> So basically what you're saying is that you are regularly skiing terrain beyond your ability level and at a speed at which you can't adjust for obstacles (both natural and man-made) around you.
> 
> Something outlined in the liability statements we all sign before being given a season pass or is printed on the back of a paper ticket for instances just like this.
> 
> ...




This is dead on. A guy died after losing control on a black at Cannon last week - Profile. It's a steep, long bomber. It's nowhere near as hard as a black at Magic IMO but that's partly because it is generally groomed flat and much wider which offsets the steep factor. Speed kills, not technical difficulty generally. For example at Magic, I'm more likely to hurt myself bombing down the bottom of Black Line at 50 mph than falling off the rock bands at the top which is a double black trail. Waterville addressed this on the two blacks on Green Peak when I was there by having a little rope with a sign that basically said, no really, experts only.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 15, 2019)

All this talk of "bombing" down a hill.  If you are moving fast, AND actually making real turns where you're skis end up in a traverse at transition close to 90 degrees from the fall line, I'll call that bombing and in a good sense of the word.  But this idea of heading straight down the fall line with only a hint of turn such that you continually pick up speed is just a recipe to eventually hurt yourself or someone else, because while you may think you have control,you most likely don't.


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## andrec10 (Mar 15, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> All this talk of "bombing" down a hill.  If you are moving fast, AND actually making real turns where you're skis end up in a traverse at transition close to 90 degrees from the fall line, I'll call that bombing and in a good sense of the word.  But this idea of heading straight down the fall line with only a hint of turn such that you continually pick up speed is just a recipe to eventually hurt yourself or someone else, because while you may think you have control,you most likely don't.



See it often enough.


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## da-bum (Mar 15, 2019)

drjeff said:


> So basically what you're saying is that you are regularly skiing terrain beyond your ability level and at a speed at which you can't adjust for obstacles (both natural and man-made) around you.
> 
> Something outlined in the liability statements we all sign before being given a season pass or is printed on the back of a paper ticket for instances just like this.



I am not skiing a terrain beyond my ability, but I usually ski near the limit of my ability, in terms of edging and completing a gs turn, even on blues like kennedy.  I avoid skidding, sliding or slarving to control speed.  Even on relatively narrow trails like Cliff, I would rather stivot and do gs turns than old skool my way down.  That is why I mentioned that Peak's less snowmaking allowed the fencing on that trail to peak out, so its not like every right turn is on the edge of the cliff.

I am there on weekdays only, so I rarely deal with the crowd.  So when I talk of bombing down twilight, outlook, racers, ike, its always pretty empty (usually zero skiers on the most challenging part).  I usually plot my course while on top of the trail, looking down and seeing who's where on the slope and their current speed and ability, so I know where they will approximately be and avoid them, and avoid potential double or triple newbies that might end up side to side with their unpredictable turns when I reach them.  On weekends, the beginners using the whole width of the trail, snowboarders sitting across on the middle of the trail, whales in random places, what's the point.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 15, 2019)

I'm confused.  So at Hunter, I'm supposed to  slarve on the weekends and stivot on the weekdays or is it the opposite?

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## HowieT2 (Mar 16, 2019)

Inadequate trail signage and young male ego/inexperience may very well be factors in these deaths.  But neither of these issues are new or unique to hunter.  Having 3 deaths on new terrain in a few short months is remarkable.  This should be a “this is no boating accident” moment for the powers that be there.  I haven’t skied hunter north, so I won’t speculate as to what the issue or issues are.  But something is going on with those trails and they should be closed until whatever it is, is rectified.


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## legalskier (Mar 16, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> Inadequate trail signage and young male ego/inexperience may very well be factors in these deaths.  But neither of these issues are new or unique to hunter.  Having 3 deaths on new terrain in a few short months is remarkable.  This should be a “this is no boating accident” moment for the powers that be there.  I haven’t skied hunter north, so I won’t speculate as to what the issue or issues are.  But something is going on with those trails and they should be closed until whatever it is, is rectified.



I was there in early February on a very warm day- the rest of the mountain softened up nicely (too much in spots), but the North never did. That's the thing about north faces, as we all know here. Combine that with wide, long trails having a sustained steep pitch and you can get to top speed very quickly there. On Overlook there were young guys pointing their boards straight down while blasting by me. I prefer to make turns and stay in control so, apart from looking over my shoulder every so often, I really enjoyed those trails.


^ Overlook


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## jg17 (Mar 16, 2019)

John9 said:


> Never seen trenches like that. That would worry me more than the pipe or unpaded snow gun tower.



The trenches are all over the mountain today. Seems to me like sloppy grooming.


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## jg17 (Mar 16, 2019)

Tdizzle said:


> I was up there yesterday and noticed that they took down all of the trail signs for Twilight. They just had one lollipop that had "experts only" hand written in marker on it. The conditions were amazing! I rode most of the day over there because the rest of the mountain got too sticky.



The sign is still there, it's just behind the mound of snow that's been pushed down. From this morning:


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## Keelhauled (Mar 16, 2019)

jg17 said:


> The trenches are all over the mountain today. Seems to me like sloppy grooming.



Sloppy grooming is leaving a track mark here and there, or letting a little ridge of snow slip out the side of the tiller.  Those trenches are plain incompetence.  How did they even do that?


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## RichT (Mar 16, 2019)

Keelhauled said:


> Sloppy grooming is leaving a track mark here and there, or letting a little ridge of snow slip out the side of the tiller.  Those trenches are plain incompetence.  How did they even do that?



They are in a hurry to get it done, or after Bruce left, they hired a guy in charge that doesn't know how to groom yet.


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## Tdizzle (Mar 16, 2019)

jg17 said:


> The sign is still there, it's just behind the mound of snow that's been pushed down. From this morning:
> View attachment 24794


Ha! I went down 3 times purposely looking for the trail sign.


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## raisingarizona (Mar 16, 2019)

I’m curious, is hitting a wooden fence at full speed that much better?


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## JimG. (Mar 16, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm confused.  So at Hunter, I'm supposed to  slarve on the weekends and stivot on the weekdays or is it the opposite?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



You seem more of an old skool guy to me.


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## JimG. (Mar 16, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> I’m curious, is hitting a wooden fence at full speed that much better?



No but at least patrol doesn't have to go into the woods with the sled.


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## John9 (Mar 17, 2019)

RichT said:


> They are in a hurry to get it done, or after Bruce left, they hired a guy in charge that doesn't know how to groom yet.



Looking at those trenches, I don't want to think about what would happen to someone's leg or knee if they got a ski caught in one of those. How can they operate a ski mountain like this? It is like putting a booby trap in the trails, all they are missing are some pointy sticks.


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## hub8 (Mar 17, 2019)

John9 said:


> Looking at those trenches, I don't want to think about what would happen to someone's leg or knee if they got a ski caught in one of those. How can they operate a ski mountain like this? It is like putting a booby trap in the trails, all they are missing are some pointy sticks.



[emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## Edd (Mar 17, 2019)

danimals said:


> Check out them trenches.



Yeah, that’s not great. Easily avoided if you see them in time but that could screw up a novice skier easily.


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## chrisarge (Mar 17, 2019)

Terrible tragedies
Perfect storm 
Peak Resorts doing it "my" way or hit the highway 
Minimal snowmaking
Wet snowmaking at all temps creating ice base 
Grooming at wrong times
Poorly thought out engineering of Hunter North
Poor placement of new lift creates bottleneck
Mislabeled intermediate trails that are steep
Low level skiers fed off the Belt Pkwy onto black diamond steep trails mislabeled "intermediate"
Relabeled trails to made up blue/black designation
Sleepy Hollow narrow trail with cliff on skiers right, off Belt Pkwy intermediate trail, fall off side fall off a cliff, closed for season
3 deaths in under 2 months on new terrain, not normal. 

Would like to see stats for injuries pre Peak and post Peak. 

Add to the 3 tragic deaths numerous people who have suffered severe injuries on the new trails, Peak has problems there. 
Overlook day 1, broken femur, broken back, etc etc etc, 6 major accidents day 1. It gets worse. 

Also lost West side which only had Claires open, no Annapurna even, and White Cloud gone.


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## drjeff (Mar 17, 2019)

If when Hunter likely closes for the season in 3, maybe 4 weeks, with likely Hunter North still 100% covered and open, is it really a case of "minimal snowmaking" as you said in your post or just smart business sense and not "waisting" thousands of dollars making snow to a depth past where historical standards say will be needed to meet the desired closing date? 

Additionally, has this been a case in the 3 deaths on the new terrain where it's affected all demographic cross sections of customers? Nope. It's a demographic, male millennials, where risk taking seems to go hand and hand, and hence in the case of all 3 of the deaths, excessive speed for the conditions is cited as a factor....

Will likely some of the new trails at Hunter North receive a re-rating to a black diamond at some point? Probably. Was that the only factor in these unfortunate events? Absolutely not

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## chrisarge (Mar 18, 2019)

drjeff said:


> If when Hunter likely closes for the season in 3, maybe 4 weeks, with likely Hunter North still 100% covered and open, is it really a case of "minimal snowmaking" as you said in your post or just smart business sense and not "waisting" thousands of dollars making snow to a depth past where historical standards say will be needed to meet the desired closing date?
> 
> Additionally, has this been a case in the 3 deaths on the new terrain where it's affected all demographic cross sections of customers? Nope. It's a demographic, male millennials, where risk taking seems to go hand and hand, and hence in the case of all 3 of the deaths, excessive speed for the conditions is cited as a factor....
> 
> ...



You have valid points. 

Minimal snowmaking on the mtn as a whole, yes. Divots, depressions in terrain don't get covered like they used to, gravel ground in, effects skiing. Snowmaking is what made Hunter great, when all others closed Hunter held steady without resorting to rock skis. 

What do you think of that grooming picture on Overlook? Bad situation created there imho and no lollipops to mark it a hazard. Have to wonder is there a person in charge of risk management that monitors stuff like this? 

Why were those "male millernials" there because they thought they were choosing intermediate blue square trails? Did they accidentally take an old trail map from the lodge with trails clearly labeled blue square intermediate? 

It's sad 3 deaths and multiple major injuries from the start day 1 on North. I'm sure they'll fix it,who wants more of the same. Just an opinion.


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## danimals (Mar 18, 2019)

I can say the day I took that photo, there was a ton of ski patrol all over north. Those trenches were the visible ones, as there were more on the steeper sections in the dark.


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## chrisarge (Mar 18, 2019)

danimals said:


> I can say the day I took that photo, there was a ton of ski patrol all over north. Those trenches were the visible ones, as there were more on the steeper sections in the dark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Maybe that was the day the kid was extricated from about 20 feet in the woods with a broken leg on North? Not sure what day that happened last week or weekend?


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## Cornhead (Mar 18, 2019)

GWI, grooming while intoxicated, or at least GWAI, grooming while ability impaired.

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## njdiver85 (Mar 18, 2019)

How soon after they re-label those trails as expert terrain will there be people here complaining that those trails are too easy?  

And regarding those pictures of the current trail condition, one should always approach any trail they have not skied yet that day cautiously (and in complete control) for the first run because you never know what the conditions are (ice, exposed rocks, bumps, trenches, etc.).  In fact, that's what makes skiing what it is - you can ski down the same trail on two different days and have completely different experiences.


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## cdskier (Mar 18, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> In fact, that's what makes skiing what it is - you can ski down the same trail on two different days and have completely different experiences.



Never-mind two different days. You can ski down the same trail the same day and experience vastly different conditions each run.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Never-mind two different days. You can ski down the same trail the same day and experience vastly different conditions each run.



Which is awesome!!!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 18, 2019)

drewfidelic said:


> If the snow isn't deep enough to cover the unburied snowmaking pipe, you don't want to be in those trees…



I was pretty much thinking the same thing when it was first posted, but hey... some people just don't care about their bases anyhow! :lol:


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## skiur (Mar 18, 2019)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I was pretty much thinking the same thing when it was first posted, but hey... some people just don't care about their bases anyhow! :lol:



Thats what rock skis are for!


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 18, 2019)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I was pretty much thinking the same thing when it was first posted, but hey... some people just don't care about their bases anyhow! :lol:



If you can't avoid a  brightly colored snowmaking pipe on the top of a run then you have no business being in the trees...


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## FBGM (Mar 20, 2019)

Wow those grooming pics are horrible. I mean, right on par for what I’d expect but seriously. 

Also, exposed snowmaking pipe like in pics posted is Busch league cheap and lazy mountain ops. Looks horrible. Huge danger. All to save a few bucks. 

Everything in this thread seems Hunter and Peaks rushes this and saved a few bucks and don’t care around safety or standards


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Wow those grooming pics are horrible. I mean, right on par for what I’d expect but seriously.
> 
> Also, exposed snowmaking pipe like in pics posted is Busch league cheap and lazy mountain ops. Looks horrible. Huge danger. All to save a few bucks.
> 
> Everything in this thread seems Hunter and Peaks rushes this and saved a few bucks and don’t care around safety or standards



The next day those ruts were gone.   Those pipes are a non-issue...   The terrain is awesome - I ride it a few times a week.  the new parking area is perfect.   It's safe..   People just can't ski...  Or just like to complain..


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## skiur (Mar 20, 2019)

FBGM has been inappropriately touched by Peaks so take his comments about them with a grain of salt.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

skiur said:


> FBGM has been inappropriately touched by Peaks so take his comments about them with a grain of salt.



Oh - bad touch.... not good..

Then let me just say - most of the negative shit people are pushing on this board on Hunter North is bullshit..
Either they haven't ridden it OR are just serial complainers looking to hurt Hunter because they suck and can't actually ski well to enjoy it..

There's a lot more to this then someone lost control and died in the woods.   People and their responsibility to ski in control, pay attention to signs and have good updated equipment need to be factored in as well.


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## 180 (Mar 20, 2019)

skiur said:


> FBGM has been inappropriately touched by Peaks so take his comments about them with a grain of salt.



Hard to take this.  Every ski resort has exposed pipes.


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## andrec10 (Mar 20, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> The next day those ruts were gone.   Those pipes are a non-issue...   The terrain is awesome - I ride it a few times a week.  the new parking area is perfect.   It's safe..   People just can't ski...  Or just like to complain..



Or both!


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

People should really check out the terrain before they diss it....


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## Not Sure (Mar 20, 2019)

“Those pipes are a non-issue “ Would think the park rats would be all over that stuff!


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> “Those pipes are a non-issue “ Would think the park rats would be all over that stuff!



The terrain is so far from the park - you barely even see them..


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## andrec10 (Mar 20, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> People should really check out the terrain before they diss it....



Exactly!


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## FBGM (Mar 20, 2019)

180 said:


> Hard to take this.  Every ski resort has exposed pipes.



That’s false. Every western resort has them 100% buried. And even some east coast resorts have them buried. You should have them buried at all costs where you can. And if you can’t they are treated no different then any other man made obstical. They fall into the same category as a hydrant, snow gun, lift tower, sign, etc. This is how a lawyer will explain it, and win, if Jerry smashes into those pipes and wrecks himself. 

Companies and resorts need to not cut corners and make their resorts look good and safe.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2019)

You sound like a real party

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> You sound like a real party



He's (amazingly) right though.  There's simply no logical reason to not bury pipes other than penny-pinching.  An ultimately penny-wise & pound-foolish decision.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

Maybe..   I've lived with exposed pipes..  Didn't even think about until you guys brought it up.   They don't seem to be an issue..  They aren't everywhere and are on the inside of the turns..


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## andrec10 (Mar 20, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Maybe..   I've lived with exposed pipes..  Didn't even think about until you guys brought it up.   They don't seem to be an issue..  They aren't everywhere and are on the inside of the turns..



Give it time....Some Jerry will hit them.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Give it time....Some Jerry will hit them.



Hope not


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## drjeff (Mar 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> He's (amazingly) right though.  There's simply no logical reason to not bury pipes other than penny-pinching.  An ultimately penny-wise & pound-foolish decision.



Except for the fact that maintenance and visual inspection of the pipes, both during the season should a blow out/leak happen and during the off season in routine examination time is a heck of a lot easier when the pipes are above ground......


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## tumbler (Mar 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> He's (amazingly) right though.  There's simply no logical reason to not bury pipes other than penny-pinching.  An ultimately penny-wise & pound-foolish decision.



It's not penny pinching, it's a huge expense to bury them.  Machine time, blasting and significantly more welding for pipe for laterals to get to the side of the trail at each hydrant location. It also makes it easier to replace hydrants because they are directly on the main pipe and you just have to dig snow in the winter and no excavating in the summer.  Most new snowmaking is put in above ground and only buried when needed to cross trails or for valve stations.  You just don't notice it most of the time because the pipes are under the snow.


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## FBGM (Mar 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> He's (amazingly) right though.  There's simply no logical reason to not bury pipes other than penny-pinching.  An ultimately penny-wise & pound-foolish decision.



Exactly. 100% cheap way out. Money driven. Which has the possibility to crumble your area when some dentist sues for $50m becasue he hit them and now has a broken everything. 

You guys think I’m some anti Peak resorts demon. I’m an anti cheap poorly run ski area person and peaks is just the main one I see all the issues. I’ve skied at 80+ resorts world wide. Most US though. And you start to compare these places you can see what are better. What are quality. Who treat employees good or bad. Who care about skiing and experience over a few bucks saved. 

East coast ski resorts fall into the save money cheap out path. Peak resorts is a perfect example of this across pretty much all their resorts and pretty much across all resort aspects. I wouldn’t ride a lift at those places. Do others do it worse. Sure. Smaller mom and pop places are similar and they don’t have the funds or backing. But others do it way better. Take away the terrain aspect and look at facilities, infrastructure and overall aperence. A place like Okemo, Stratton or Stowe blows a Mt Snow our of the water. Smaller scale, take a Elk Mt or Cammelback. Elk stuck in the ages. Camelback booming with lifts lodges infrastructure done correctly. 

West coast apples to apples. Take Brighton and compare it to Solitude. Old and dated and loosely run. Compared to quality. 

Vail is a great example. Hate those dirty cocksuckers but they invest and make stuff safe and quality. Back to front top to bottom. No corners cut. 

Terrain is great. That’s why we ski. But I’d rather have a safe and quality day on okay terrain then support places that don’t care and cut corners for nickels.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Exactly. 100% cheap way out. Money driven. Which has the possibility to crumble your area when some dentist sues for $50m becasue he hit them and now has a broken everything.
> 
> You guys think I’m some anti Peak resorts demon. I’m an anti cheap poorly run ski area person and peaks is just the main one I see all the issues. I’ve skied at 80+ resorts world wide. Most US though. And you start to compare these places you can see what are better. What are quality. Who treat employees good or bad. Who care about skiing and experience over a few bucks saved.
> 
> ...



Wow - 80 resorts... You must be a really good skier..  But not good enough to be brave about a few pipes off trail - please be safe..  If you can't avoid a pipe off the trail - I doubt you could avoid a human


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Wow - 80 resorts... You must be a really good skier..  But *not good enough to be brave about a few pipes *off trail - please be safe..  *If you can't avoid a pipe off the trail - I doubt you could avoid a human*



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc8ZX_Asoo8


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc8ZX_Asoo8



Agree - he totally doesn't get it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 20, 2019)

Yep.

And the Okemo, Stratton and Stowe mentioned?  They all have plenty of exposed snowmaking pipe as well. 



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## Not Sure (Mar 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> He's (amazingly) right though.  There's simply no logical reason to not bury pipes other than penny-pinching.  An ultimately penny-wise & pound-foolish decision.



Well its a way of cooling the water before it makes it to the guns. Bear creek spent big $’s on a chiller system. Pull it from the pond run it though the chiller and drop the water to 39f vs pond water in the 40’s. 15% Energy saving from what I heard.


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## legalskier (Mar 20, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Yep.
> 
> And the Okemo, Stratton and Stowe mentioned?  They all have plenty of exposed snowmaking pipe as well.
> 
> ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6PwZB_AK9c


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## legalskier (Mar 20, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Wow those grooming pics are horrible. I mean, right on par for what I’d expect but seriously.
> 
> Also, exposed snowmaking pipe like in pics posted is Busch league cheap and lazy mountain ops. Looks horrible. Huge danger. All to save a few bucks.
> 
> Everything in this thread seems Hunter and Peaks rushes this and saved a few bucks and don’t care around safety or standards



Then again, some people enjoy riding the pipes. Why is this ok in the middle of a slope, but not ok if it's a located off trail? Wouldn't that make it safer?


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## Not Sure (Mar 20, 2019)

LOL .As long as they grind off the weld joints.


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