# Uphill Resort Skinning… a warning



## eatskisleep (Jan 21, 2022)

Looks like Sugarbush just ended most of their uphill travel… and that Black of NH will too if people don’t smarten up and obey the rules:
Black mountain in NH just posted this:

“Over the last few years, the “earn your turns” alpine touring movement has become the most talked about new way to get outside and get active, especially in the MWV. We love that. Getting more people on skis, getting kids introduced to the sport, and giving people a way to relieve stress, exercise and enjoy nature is something we are absolutely on board with. This is why we partnered with Andrew Drummond in his inaugural year of Ski The Whites back in 2017, and in the years since have provided a facility, terrain, and snow (when Mother Nature doesn’t cooperate) to those who wish to earn their turns. Ski The Whites’ event “Friday Night Lights” is known throughout New England, if not across the country, as the place to be on Fridays whether you have many touring hours under your belt or you are new to the sport. We are proud to have been involved in this.

As the popularity of uphill touring grew, it became evident that guidelines and policies were needed to help keep mountain staff and guests safe. These policies differ by mountain, based on location, ownership and terrain, but it is your responsibility as a mountain guest to educate yourself in this regard. It is a simple request that you find the policy, read the policy, and adhere to the policy. The policy is not up for debate, it is not up for interpretation, and applies to you - yes, even if you consider yourself a local. Our uphill travel policy can be found here: blackmt.com/uphill-policy

To put it frankly, Black Mountain is private property; it is not public land. You do not have a right to access this mountain. Accessing the mountain and trails is a privilege and doing so without permission is trespassing. A season pass, lift ticket, or uphill ticket is required to access the property in any way. Unfortunately, widespread disregard of our simple request to purchase a $10 ticket to access our property will very soon result in the elimination of any alpine touring or uphill travel permitted at Black Mountain. Pretending to not see numerous, fluorescent signs that we’d prefer to not have riddling the base area and trails is unacceptable. Parking in auxiliary lots, at the inn next door, up the road in the driveways of private homes to avoid being seen is insulting and disrespectful. It is discourteous to your peers who have purchased tickets or passes. It is entitlement on display, and it is embarrassing that anyone would prefer to circumvent our policy and behave this way to avoid paying a $10 fee. To be clear, this $10 fee is not only reasonable, but goes directly toward maintaining the independent, family owned business that is keeping this activity available. If "Ski Free or Die" is your mantra, this is not your playground.

This is our only warning - so please share it with your friends. We’d love to continue to welcome uphill travelers at our mountain, but we kindly ask that you respect us and cooperate with our rules. Failure to do so will result in the revocation of uphill access for all at Black Mountain, and trespassers will be reported to police.”


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## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2022)

Read that from Black.  Pretty shameful theft of services from a place hanging on by a thread.


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## Edd (Jan 21, 2022)

Shit, that’s a shame.


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## Smellytele (Jan 21, 2022)

I bought the $29 season uphill pass at Pats this year. Well worth it. yesterday I ended up doing a granite backcountry alliance glade in sugar hill. Fresh powder run as I was the first to ski it after Monday’s snow. 
Cannon basically only allows it for season pass holders or for full day ticket Holders.


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2022)

Can't blame the folks at Sugarbush for making the call as a result of what those couple of folks did with actively violating the posted routes as well as the flashing signage that a winch cat was active in that area. Lucky for those 2 it sounds like from the article that they weren't severely injured by the winch cable.

Maybe it will cause a bit of a reset of the mentality that *some* folks in the skinning community who seem to feel that the posted routes at ski areas are meant for others and not for them, not getting, or believing maybe, that the posted routes are there for safety of both those skinning as well as the mountain ops staff who may very well be actively out on the mountain when the lifts aren't spinning.

Sounds like this might be example #1001 of how a few bad apples ruin things for the majority of folks who do play by the posted rules, and rules that are there for everyone's safety


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## NYDB (Jan 21, 2022)

Looks like some bad blood between Black and Granite Backcountry Alliance.


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## Mainer (Jan 21, 2022)

Black has changed through the years. I love going there on powder days. There has been days where I was the only person on powder days until 10.  It is a lot more crowded with the Indy and skinning. Only bad experience was a couple years ago was told they would call the cops on me and arrest me for trespassing for ducking ropes if they caught me again.  Before that time ski patrol used to not care (there is only one person there on weekdays for ski patrol) 
    In the last few years there has literally been hundred of people skinning up the trails on Weekends. I can definitely see the need to charge these people. Black is not exactly a cash cow. 
    Unfortunately with more success comes more rules. But I still love black, the bar is great, the vibe is great (don’t duck ropes). They blast music at the base, such a fun place especially with little kids. It’s a step back in time.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Read that from Black.  Pretty shameful theft of services from a place hanging on by a thread.


Completely agree.  And they hit it on the head as to entitlement.


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## JimG. (Jan 21, 2022)

Seems like a reasonable request.


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## abc (Jan 21, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> Looks like some bad blood between Black and Granite Backcountry Alliance.


Please elaborate?


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## NYDB (Jan 21, 2022)

abc said:


> Please elaborate?


I dont know any details or anything but it seems like they are unhappy with them.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 21, 2022)

Okay AZ… who has the details?!??!? Spill the gossip!


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## IceEidolon (Jan 21, 2022)

I'd suspect it's not the group being called out by motto, but that the group and backcountry skiers both use that motto.


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## ctdubl07 (Jan 22, 2022)

The letter in OP is fantastic in tone and message. Something so direct and frank could only be written by a private entity without inside a PR/inside counsel/HR. Oh how Im jealous...


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## NYDB (Jan 22, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> I'd suspect it's not the group being called out by motto, but that the group and backcountry skiers both use that motto.


they were tagged in the post.  seems pretty direct and obvious


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## abc (Jan 22, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> they were tagged in the post.  seems pretty direct and obvious


Why are "*back country*" skiers skinning up on resort slopes? 

I thought the whole idea of "back country" is nature and solitude...


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

Granite Backcountry Alliance
					

New Hampshire Backcountry Skiing. We are an organization focusing on reviving glades and expanding backcountry skiing responsibly in NH and western Maine.




					granitebackcountryalliance.org
				




Doesn’t seem like an overtly dickish group. Could be a few rogue elements in there through. Could’ve just tagged them to spread the word to BC enthusiasts.


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## Mainer (Jan 22, 2022)

It’s a conga line there on a weekend. Sniffing each other’s butt because there is so many of them in a line, while people are wizzing by giving the wtf look. Can’t pay the $10, but spend $1500 on a new AT setup. While the owner of black bumps chairs to make ends meet. Skinning an open resort is a strange endeavor.
    Black is the only mountain I make sure to buy a couple beers at, just to give them a couple bucks.


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## Edd (Jan 22, 2022)

abc said:


> Why are "*back country*" skiers skinning up on resort slopes?
> 
> I thought the whole idea of "back country" is nature and solitude...


Skinning up resort slopes is incredibly common. Some folks are driven by the exercise and cost-savings parts as much as any back country motivation.


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## NYDB (Jan 22, 2022)

Edd said:


> Skinning up resort slopes is incredibly common. Some folks are driven by the exercise and cost-savings parts as much as any back country motivation.


yeah its mostly for fitness.  Kind of like hitting wrod early season to get the legs ready for january powder. 

It's also good practice for getting your shit sorted out, transitions dialed, etc.


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## Hawk (Jan 23, 2022)

abc said:


> Why are "*back country*" skiers skinning up on resort slopes?
> 
> I thought the whole idea of "back country" is nature and solitude...


The phrase "Back Country" is no longer solely attached to the word skinner.  As said above, more and more skinners are new to the sport and only have inerest in skinning for exercise instead of going to the gym and getting on the stair master.  A very large portion of these new skinners have no ability or interenst in sking in the woods.  So the trails are the most suitable option.  Also I might add that this year the problem is exaserbated by a lack of snow in the woods.  Add doing this at night time with head lights and the trail is basically your only option.


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## raisingarizona (Jan 23, 2022)

Edd said:


> Skinning up resort slopes is incredibly common. Some folks are driven by the exercise and cost-savings parts as much as any back country motivation.


And it’s extremely safe compared to actual back country skiing in avalanche terrain.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 23, 2022)

Hawk said:


> As said above, more and more skinners are new to the sport and only have inerest in skinning for exercise instead of going to the gym and getting on the stair master.


I can’t imagine having so much money where instead of going to the gym I drop ~$1500 on a skinning setup when I’ve never even skied before.


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## raisingarizona (Jan 23, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I can’t imagine having so much money where instead of going to the gym I drop ~$1500 on a skinning setup when I’ve never even skied before.


A lot of folks here get their gear used.


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## kbroderick (Jan 23, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I can’t imagine having so much money where instead of going to the gym I drop ~$1500 on a skinning setup when I’ve never even skied before.


There are a lot of people with AT stuff who know how to ski but are far from experts. I've seen a lot of people in steep but open areas who clearly could've benefited from more coaching.


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## raisingarizona (Jan 23, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> There are a lot of people with AT stuff who know how to ski but are far from experts. I've seen a lot of people in steep but open areas who clearly could've benefited from more coaching.


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

NY DirtBag said:


> yeah its mostly for fitness.  Kind of like hitting wrod early season to get the legs ready for january powder.
> 
> It's also good practice for getting your shit sorted out, transitions dialed, etc.


My comment was triggered by the "beef" between Black and Backcountry Alliance.

If the new skinners are really just gym rats on snow, why did GBA get involved? I assume the Alliance represent real "back country" skiers who spent their time away from resorts...


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## Riverveteran (Jan 24, 2022)

Would like to see skinning banned or very limited on downhill resort trails.  Folks going against traffice are a huge liability and in many cases its Theft of Service.


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I can’t imagine having so much money where instead of going to the gym I drop ~$1500 on a skinning setup when I’ve never even skied before.


People spend $2500 on a Peleton and also have to pay $35/mo for the subscription. Also if you have Covid fear, the $1,500 outdoor alternative is looking pretty good instead of your populated gym.  Especially if you skipped town and are now working remotely from your house of condo at the mountain.  In my assoication alone there are probably Half doing this.


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## Riverveteran (Jan 24, 2022)

Walking is safe.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

I don't know the full details here and I'm only speculating, but there's a fair amount of crossover between BCA and Black's uphill program.  So maybe the BCA folks think Black is being too strict. 

The most locally famous BC skier in perhaps all of New England is Andrew Drummond.  He basically started Blacks uphill culture as it exists today as I understand it.  He has his own company in Jackson called Ski the Whites, which I seem to recall originally had it's office at Black Mountain.  

He also happens to be on the Board of Director's for Back Country Alliance.  

Personally I think uphill routes at ski areas should be designated uphill routes only and not be part of downhill skiing trails.  Saddleback does this.  I definitely have come close to nailing skinners in the past at Wildcat skiing the edge of Polecat as the center is boilerplate.  Come around a corner and boom there are skinners or people snowshoeing in your line.   I'm surprised collisions aren't more common.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 24, 2022)

If you want to use a resorts amenities (groomed trails, snowmaking, maintained uphill routes) you should pay for that access, running a ski area is already low enough margin. Its just insulting that people will spend big money on a touring setup but its too much for them to pay for access to the mountain. There’s plenty of actual backcountry routes available when the snow is good. If there isn’t snow and you’re relegated to skinning resorts then you should be respecting the work of the resort by paying for access.


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Personally I think uphill routes at ski areas should be designated uphill routes only and not be part of downhill skiing trails. Saddleback does this.


Do they make snow on that uphill only slope? Grooming?


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2022)

You don't need to blow snow or groom.  All you need is about 4 to 6 inches of snow and the people skiinning do the rest.  The track gets set by the first few skinners.  Sugatbush did a nice job at Mt. Ellen.  There are only a couple of places on lower FIS and South Bound that you come in contact with an actual trail.  Really wild and beautiful in there.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

abc said:


> Do they make snow on that uphill only slope? Grooming?



No, it's a trail through the woods.  Which means it's open less often, but a more BC like experience when it's open


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't know the full details here and I'm only speculating, but there's a fair amount of crossover between BCA and Black's uphill program.  So maybe the BCA folks think Black is being too strict.
> 
> The most locally famous BC skier in perhaps all of New England is Andrew Drummond.  He basically started Blacks uphill culture as it exists today as I understand it.  He has his own company in Jackson called Ski the Whites, which I seem to recall originally had it's office at Black Mountain.
> 
> ...


I believe ski the whites used to actually be in the lodge at black. Used to rent at gear there.


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## abc (Jan 24, 2022)

So the "trail" is more like a path through the woods, only that it's within the resort property. But the resort really doesn't do anything for its upkeep (maybe just clear it of down trees)?


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## ThatGuy (Jan 24, 2022)

Hawk said:


> You don't need to blow snow or groom.  All you need is about 4 to 6 inches of snow and the people skiinning do the rest.  The track gets set by the first few skinners.  Sugatbush did a nice job at Mt. Ellen.  There are only a couple of places on lower FIS and South Bound that you come in contact with an actual trail.  Really wild and beautiful in there.


Sugarbush has a really nice uphill route but the people taking that route and following the rules aren’t the ones I’m referring to. Nonetheless you are utilizing groomed trails and snowmaking on your descent, plus it does take work to mark and maintain an uphill route.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 24, 2022)

abc said:


> So the "trail" is more like a path through the woods, only that it's within the resort property. But the resort really doesn't do anything for its upkeep (maybe just clear it of down trees)?


Yes, but it depends on the mountain. Sugarbush which is the topic of this conversation has a really nice dedicated uphill route through the woods, Magic has a nice one as well that stays in the woods for the most part. Mount Snow on the other hand goes right up a main trail and people don’t even follow it correctly.


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## Hawk (Jan 24, 2022)

exactly. I thint if might have been an old logging road or skidder trail.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

abc said:


> So the "trail" is more like a path through the woods, only that it's within the resort property. But the resort really doesn't do anything for its upkeep (maybe just clear it of down trees)?



I'm not sure.  I remember seeing the photos of it being cleared.  Not sure if it was done with Saddleback labor or volunteers.  Also not sure who or how it is maintained.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2022)

Gunstock has 3 routes that they list on their snow report. Two are all downhill trails, one mostly XC and BC.  Bottom of the report to find the information





__





						Gunstock Snow Report | Snow Conditions at Gunstock
					

View our daily Winter Snow Report.




					www.gunstock.com


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## eatskisleep (Jan 24, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I believe ski the whites used to actually be in the lodge at black. Used to rent at gear there.


Yes they were. Which makes me wonder what the falling out was (if any).


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## drjeff (Jan 24, 2022)

Unfortunately it seems that the issue at times is just simply people either not taking the time to find out a resorts uphill policy/uphill route, and then if they do that, then following the downhill policy (if applicable during certain times of the day).

Just speaking from what I see at Mount Snow on a weekly basis, you are more likely to see folks going uphill (skinning, snowshoeing, plain old hiking) on trails that aren't the dedicated uphill route than you are most weekend days.

Ultimately that is going to cause some issues from purely a liability standpoint that will supercede either the ignorance or sometimes possibly sense of entitlement that those not following the guidelines are creating for those who are following the guidelines


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## raisingarizona (Jan 24, 2022)

Riverveteran said:


> Would like to see skinning banned or very limited on downhill resort trails.  Folks going against traffice are a huge liability and in many cases its Theft of Service.


It was a free for all here for a while and it became very problematic. Any uphill program at a ski area should be managed to keep it from affecting regular operations. 

Flagstaff is a major spot for trail runners and they love uphill skiing in the winter. Before there were designated routes we could have a hundred plus of em doing multiple laps on our area. Some pass holders became pretty upset after some powder days where the mountain was heavily tracked up before first chair unloaded. It’s a valid argument imho, you buy a season pass expecting certain experiences. Eventually it became managed so they have designated routes to go uphill and one or two groomed ski runs to descend.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 24, 2022)

So I'll weigh in on this as my local hill allows uphill outside of operating hours.  Its a fun way to get a little exercise in before work.  Its actually about the climb as opposed to the ski.  I can skin to the top in 17-20 minutes and then its 1 minute on the way down.  I'd like to do multiple climbs, but haven't had the time for that yet.  I know I'm not getting a "backcountry" experience and I'm not expecting one either.  I agree that if a ski area is going to allow it DURING operating hours. Then there needs to be a bunch of rules in place and it would likely make sense to have the uphill route in the woods so there isn't a collision.  

A Basin charges for an uphill pass.  Killington requires one, but its free and probably more of a way to get you to sign the waiver.


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## raisingarizona (Jan 24, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> So I'll weigh in on this as my local hill allows uphill outside of operating hours.  Its a fun way to get a little exercise in before work.  Its actually about the climb as opposed to the ski.  I can skin to the top in 17-20 minutes and then its 1 minute on the way down.  I'd like to do multiple climbs, but haven't had the time for that yet.  I know I'm not getting a "backcountry" experience and I'm not expecting one either.  I agree that if a ski area is going to allow it DURING operating hours. Then there needs to be a bunch of rules in place and it would likely make sense to have the uphill route in the woods so there isn't a collision.
> 
> A Basin charges for an uphill pass.  Killington requires one, but its free and probably more of a way to get you to sign the waiver.


Our uphill hours aren’t during operating hours but there are specific guidelines and rules so they aren’t affecting snowmaking and grooming ops.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 24, 2022)

Yes the same here defined up and down route.


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## kbroderick (Jan 24, 2022)

FWIW, I don't find uphill traffic particularly more or less challenging to avoid on the way down versus other traffic. It does create a bit of surprise effect in places, but very rarely is someone actually going uphill fast enough to materially affect closing speed vs. a stationary skier.

Do uphill skiers sometimes choose crappy positioning relative to crests and corners? Yes, but so do plenty of lift-riding skiers and riders.

I do think dedicated uphill routes are generally a good idea, as is defining a preferred side of the trail if the route goes up a major trail, but the idea that uphill traffic creates hazards that are substantially greater in magnitude or different in quality versus stopped skiers and riders doesn't hold in my estimation. YMMV, of course.


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## ThatGuy (Jan 24, 2022)

Bolton Valley has a good system


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Bolton Valley has a good system
> View attachment 52838
> View attachment 52839


Then they also have a lot of other stuff off wilderness


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## thetrailboss (Jan 26, 2022)

Vermont ski resorts work to accommodate boom in uphill skiers
					

Vermonters embrace winter like no others. Many take to the slopes to ski and ride, but some go the extra mile in the fast-growing sport of uphill skiing.




					www.wcax.com


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 27, 2022)

Speaking up uphill skinning (non-resort, in this case) -- has anyone been to the Brandon Gap since COVID hit? I haven't been there since Feb 2020 and I imagine it would be insanely crowded now, especially on a weekend.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2022)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Speaking up uphill skinning (non-resort, in this case) -- has anyone been to the Brandon Gap since COVID hit? I haven't been there since Feb 2020 and I imagine it would be insanely crowded now, especially on a weekend.


I wonder if that is the same case for Lincoln Gap.


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## cdskier (Jan 27, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if that is the same case for Lincoln Gap.


I would imagine they are two very different animals. Brandon Gap has ample parking and established backcountry trails (http://www.ridgelineoutdoorcollective.org/brandon-gap/) . The area is supposedly well maintained and trails are marked, etc. Brandon Gap has really exploded in popularity even the past couple years prior to COVID (I don't know what it was like last year as I stayed in the MRV all winter and this year there really hasn't been enough snow up until now to put that area really into play but at least the winter prior to COVID there were numerous times that the lots along Rt 73 near the trailheads would be absolutely packed when I drove by on my way home from SB).

Lincoln Gap has much more limited access due to the road being closed. I can't really see that having anywhere near the amount of people that Brandon Gap does.


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## Cat in January (Jan 28, 2022)

Black Mountain of Maine had the first entirely separate uphill trail in New England (US?)


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## eatskisleep (Jan 28, 2022)

Cat in January said:


> Black Mountain of Maine had the first entirely separate uphill trail in New England (US?)
> 
> View attachment 52883


So smart. This is how to do it!


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## soposkier (Feb 5, 2022)

Not an uphill/touring skier myself, but saw Mt. Abram also made a post on the matter. 






__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10159684937273819&id=157798163818


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## Edd (Feb 5, 2022)

Such cheap BS to hike uphill on a groomed trail when you know damn well there’s a charge to pay. Screw those people.


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## urungus (Feb 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> Such cheap BS to hike uphill on a groomed trail when you know damn well there’s a charge to pay. Screw those people.


 And also letting your mangy dog crap all over the trail


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## raisingarizona (Feb 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> Such cheap BS to hike uphill on a groomed trail when you know damn well there’s a charge to pay. Screw those people.


I disagree, especially in an area that more often than not relies on man made snow to even be in play. That stuff is expensive and the pass is like a legal agreement that holds you to their rules. If you don’t like it then go clear your own approved glade on private or public lands. You’ll probably find that that process too can be very expensive and time consuming, much more so than buying an affordable pass and helping out a small, mom and pop ski area thats at least cool enough to allow the practice.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 5, 2022)

urungus said:


> And also letting your mangy dog crap all over the trail


Most policies probably don’t allow pets


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## Edd (Feb 5, 2022)

raisingarizona said:


> I disagree, especially in an area that more often than not relies on man made snow to even be in play. That stuff is expensive and the pass is like a legal agreement that holds you to their rules. If you don’t like it then go clear your own approved glade on private or public lands. You’ll probably find that that process too can be very expensive and time consuming, much more so than buying an affordable pass and helping out a small, mom and pop ski area thats at least cool enough to allow the practice.


I think you misunderstood my post or I’m misunderstanding yours.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> I think you misunderstood my post or I’m misunderstanding yours.


Ahhh, I think I see that now. My bad, sorry Edd.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 8, 2022)

Jay Peak reminds folks not to skin after hours….





__





						Uphill Travel Update | Jay Peak Resort
					






					jaypeakresort.com


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## Cat in January (Feb 9, 2022)

Not exactly.  They don’t recommend it, but if you do stay away from ski workers and wear a light


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## thetrailboss (Feb 9, 2022)

Cat in January said:


> Not exactly.  They don’t recommend it, but if you do stay away from ski workers and wear a light


True, but they all but disallow it.


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## Cat in January (Feb 9, 2022)

Not how I read it.  I have not been after hours in season, but they use almost the exact same language preseason and are cool with it.  I believe the language is to cover themselves since there is no ski patrol on the hill.


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## machski (Feb 10, 2022)

Cat in January said:


> Not how I read it.  I have not been after hours in season, but they use almost the exact same language preseason and are cool with it.  I believe the language is to cover themselves since there is no ski patrol on the hill.


Didn't Burke (still a sister resort I guess) have an uphiller killed after hours last year or two ago by a winch cat?  Pretty sure they both came down on after hours skinning after that.  I think that is the biggest concern more than no patrol, mountain ops can being doing things that are hazardous to a climber/skier outside of operating hours.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2022)

machski said:


> Didn't Burke (still a sister resort I guess) have an uphiller killed after hours last year or two ago by a winch cat?  Pretty sure they both came down on after hours skinning after that.  I think that is the biggest concern more than no patrol, mountain ops can being doing things that are hazardous to a climber/skier outside of operating hours.


Not killed, but a close call.  It was at Burke.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2022)

More than a warning.  Actual charges pressed!  How dare those skinners steal Friday powder!!!

Pretty comical and definitely not good for PR.





__ https://www.facebook.com/162901957056481/posts/5465996580080299


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 25, 2022)

I get trespassing on private property, that is always a crime.  Posting this dribble on Instagram is beyond pretentious and obviously super lame. A social media post like this should also be a crime.

A simple reminder that the resort is private property,  closed during the week (or whatever schedule), and that skining was not allowed would've sufficed.


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## danimals (Feb 25, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> More than a warning.  Actual charges pressed!  How dare those skinners steal Friday powder!!!
> 
> Pretty comical and definitely not good for PR.
> 
> ...


Eagle point is only open Friday to Saturday. They market fridays when there’s midweek snow as “powder fridays” and is something their customers expect and buy into. It’s also on private land. I kind of understand it.


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## JimG. (Feb 25, 2022)

danimals said:


> Eagle point is only open Friday to Saturday. They market fridays when there’s midweek snow as “powder fridays” and is something their customers expect and buy into. It’s also on private land. I kind of understand it.


I totally understand it...those guys are total dicks and deserve some kind of punishment.


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## Dickc (Feb 25, 2022)

danimals said:


> Eagle point is only open Friday to Saturday. They market fridays when there’s midweek snow as “powder fridays” and is something their customers expect and buy into. It’s also on private land. I kind of understand it.


Its that dog gone entitlement fever that seems to be running high in the USA.  Maybe we need more Eagle Point responses to tamp it down some.


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## cdskier (Feb 25, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I totally understand it...those guys are total dicks and deserve some kind of punishment.


I completely agree and have no issues what-so-ever with this. You can't just do whatever you want on private property. (Heck even on public property there are still rules you need to follow).


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## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2022)

FTR, my primary reason for sharing was I found the social media post humorous.


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## jaytrem (Feb 25, 2022)

Interesting approach for sure, definitely sends a message.  I wonder if the offenders were warned in the past.  

I got a powder day there once, fresh tracks all day.  Was shortly after they reopened and was crazy empty on the steep side, few more people up top.  To get from the bottom to the top you have to hike, then ride a chair, then get on a bus, then ski down a bit, then ride another chair.  Bit of an odd setup.


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## chuckstah (Feb 25, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Interesting approach for sure, definitely sends a message.  I wonder if the offenders were warned in the past.
> 
> I got a powder day there once, fresh tracks all day.  Was shortly after they reopened and was crazy empty on the steep side, few more people up top.  To get from the bottom to the top you have to hike, then ride a chair, then get on a bus, then ski down a bit, then ride another chair.  Bit of an odd setup.


I had a powder day there once as well. Place was a ghost town. I remember taking a bus up to the top, but don't remember the hiking. One section was served by a cat on my first visit, but I don't remember it being cat served a couple years later on my other visit. Great time, really sketchy drive up the long Access road in a shitty rental. 
Pressing charges seems a bit dickish for skinning, but I get it, your property, your rules.


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## Pez (Feb 26, 2022)

that post is cringe af as the kids would say


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## skimagic (Feb 26, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I completely agree and have no issues what-so-ever with this. You can't just do whatever you want on private property. (Heck even on public property there are still rules you need to follow).


it's just going to be a fine to send a message to others to buy a ticket if you want to play there.  I suppose they could of skinned up the alpine peak next door.  there are backcoubtry huts there.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 26, 2022)

Dickc said:


> Its that dog gone entitlement fever that seems to be running high in the USA.  Maybe we need more Eagle Point responses to tamp it down some.


Damn straight. They’re protecting their product. The paying customers expect fresh runs after a good storm and their midweek closure. If they didn’t do anything what message would that send to the public? People would see that as a free for all and a ski area policy they don’t have to respect. Good for Eagle point.

One criticism of the ski area I’d have is if it’s not signed at the bottom as such it would kind of be a dick move to go straight for the arrest instead of a talking to. Hopefully the rules are posted as such if not it may have been an honest mistake. 

Even if EP was on NF lands you wouldn’t be entitled to go do whatever you want. Many ski areas don’t allow uphill travel because it impacts their operations and can be a public safety problem. There are federal laws for this and you can be charged for a theft of services.

I know this because I’ve been arrested and on other occasions escorted from property.

I guess I’ve grown up since then


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## eatskisleep (Feb 26, 2022)




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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2022)

Total assholes who make others bear the negative consequences of their entitled behavior.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 28, 2022)

that's unfortunate  1 asshole can ruin it for everyone...

I'm hopeful that our newly blossoming uphill community here at Roundtop doesn't end up like this.  Everyone seems to be following the rules that I've encountered so far.


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## JimG. (Feb 28, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that's unfortunate  1 asshole can ruin it for everyone...
> 
> I'm hopeful that our newly blossoming uphill community here at Roundtop doesn't end up like this.  Everyone seems to be following the rules that I've encountered so far.


I think we can assume that next season at the latest we will see most ski areas institute an uphill travel pass. It won't cost $20 either. 
I'll guess $150-200 will be the price in most cases. And I agree it is a shame that mostly law abiding people are being punished now. Somehow that seems to always be the case in these situations. I wonder how long it will take before most people get sick and tired of being forced to live a lowest common denominator life because of entitled jerks and take action.


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## Smellytele (Feb 28, 2022)

JimG. said:


> I think we can assume that next season at the latest we will see most ski areas institute an uphill travel pass. It won't cost $20 either.
> I'll guess $150-200 will be the price in most cases. And I agree it is a shame that mostly law abiding people are being punished now. Somehow that seems to always be the case in these situations. I wonder how long it will take before most people get sick and tired of being forced to live a lowest common denominator life because of entitled jerks and take action.


Pats peak has a season uphill pass for $29 this year


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## gnardawg (Feb 28, 2022)

Just got an email from Andy Drummond saying Ski the Whites is closing their rental shop at Black and will no longer hold events there.


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## Mainer (Feb 28, 2022)

A rental shop isn’t very profitable if you have nowhere to use the rentals.


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## skimagic (Feb 28, 2022)

so essentially let everyone flaunt the rules or you won't get our buisness or services.  what a joke.


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## eatskisleep (Feb 28, 2022)

gnardawg said:


> Just got an email from Andy Drummond saying Ski the Whites is closing their rental shop at Black and will no longer hold events there.


Wow wonder what the falling out was… you’d think he could still rent to people who would follow the rules… or go to doublehead. Sounds like they are butting heads now.


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## 2Planker (Feb 28, 2022)

Andrew Drummond and Ski The Whites was featured on Channel 5's Chronicle  in Boston tonight.
Other MWV places featured were the Scandanavian Hotel, Villa Hygge  and Cathedral Ledge Brewery.

 They even mentioned that Black Mt "has had problems w/ trespassers on the uphill routes this year"


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## pinion247 (Mar 1, 2022)

Post from StW: 
	

			A Thank You and Goodbye to Black Mt
		


Sounds amicable enough.


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## So Inclined (Mar 1, 2022)

Scuttlebutt on a different forum suggests the end came for somewhat different - or at least more - reasons than just uphill poaching.


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## pinion247 (Mar 1, 2022)

So Inclined said:


> Scuttlebutt on a different forum suggests the end came for somewhat different - or at least more - reasons than just uphill poaching.


I was at Lostbo & Shovel Handle Sat night and heard nothing of this. I usually don't hunt around for rumors but you'd figure someone would mention something. Maybe not. 

If any of that turns out to be true it's 1) completely believable, 2) a situation that could have been handed differently, and 3) won't meaningfully effect Black's bottom line - no loss for them - but definitely doesn't look good. Bummer. It was a cool and unique relationship.


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## Riverveteran (Mar 1, 2022)

Too bad some can't follow the rules.


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## Smellytele (Mar 2, 2022)

I have heard in the past that Black’s owner was kind of an ass but I never experienced it first hand.


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## Edd (Mar 2, 2022)

Black Mountain owner says Ski the Whites events were 'like a bad high school dance' - New England Ski Journal
					

The divorce between Black Mountain and Ski the Whites really started brewing at the very beginning of the relationship.




					www.skijournal.com


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 2, 2022)

Good article.  I can see the owners point.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2022)

Edd said:


> Black Mountain owner says Ski the Whites events were 'like a bad high school dance' - New England Ski Journal
> 
> 
> The divorce between Black Mountain and Ski the Whites really started brewing at the very beginning of the relationship.
> ...


Yeah 500 people showing up with no proper control spells disaster.  And I completely get the concern about BYOB with a liquor license.


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## jaytrem (Mar 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> I have heard in the past that Black’s owner was kind of an ass but I never experienced it first hand.



I did a few weeks ago.  Posted this on Snowjournal the other day after somebody posted a picture of the owner....

Seeing his face in that picture turns my stomach a bit. The last time a saw it, he was standing over one of his female guests, hands on his knees, getting in her face. Can still see it in my mind like it was yesterday. Worst guest interaction I've seen in thousands of ski days. I'm reluctant to tell the story, everyone else there was so nice, and I wouldn't want to do anything to contribute to Black's demise. But if he's often behaving the way he did that day, I'm sure he'll turn off more people than I will with this post.

Saturday Feb 5th, couldn't ask for a better day. Foot plus of fresh snow and the summit open for the first time this year. Trees were skiing great and we got lots of first tracks. Employees and other guests were all super friendly.

Around 2:30 we were enjoying some runs off the triple. When we got to the bottom two people were putting up a new rope that went from the base of the triple out about 15-20 feet perpendicular to the lift corral (basically empty by the way). I couldn't see the rope too well, but could see them putting it up, so it caused me no problem. One of my kids was still up the hill messing around with some power or something so I was just standing there for a minute or two. So now the rope is up and apparently VERY hard to see. Yes it was orange, but it looks like it was 20 years old, and no ribbons on it. Skier after skier obviously can't see it. But one of the employees starts yelling at anybody that comes even close to his rope. Eventually a female snowboarder, maybe around 30 years old, has some trouble just above the rope. It must have been a little slick, even though she was coming in very slow, she slid under the rope a bit. She didn't seem overly skilled, was kinda floundering on the ground. That was it!!! He starts chewing in to her, telling her she's blind and threatening to take her ticket. Bending over with hands on his knees, totally getting in her face. I think she was apologizing and saying she didn't see the rope. But I could hear him a lot better than her. Meanwhile the other employee seems to realize the rope is a terrible idea and she starts to taking it down. I chimed in a bit and was also told that I'm too blind to be skiing. I know I at one point I said something like "you're gonna chop somebody's head off with that stupid rope".  Anyway, my 2nd kid shows up and so does snowboarder's husband (as I later found out). We don't stick around to see the end result. His behavior does irk me for the lift ride though. We have another nice run and head back to the triple. The rope is now back up and much more visible due to the many ribbons now tied to it. The inappropriate employee is now talking to a patroller and nobody is being yelled at anymore. I could tell they were finishing up and decided to wait at the top so that I could speak with the patroller. He was super nice and when I asked the question "who's that guy you were speaking with down there", he sighed and said "that's the owner". He no doubt knew why I was asking and the sigh made me think this wasn't the first time he's seen such behavior. He also said the snowboarder's husband showed up and they "talked things out". I'd be shocked if they ever return, and honestly, I was pretty turned off myself. Say what you want about Vail, but I suspect they would immediately fire anyone that behaved like that. Such a shame, we had such a nice day otherwise, but my main memory of that day will forever be some poor lady having John get in her face. Like I said, seeing his face literally turns my stomach a bit, no way a guest deserves to be treated that way.


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## kbroderick (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah 500 people showing up with no proper control spells disaster.  And I completely get the concern about BYOB with a liquor license.


Does NH licensing apply to the entire premises or just to a named F&B venue? IIRC, both Vermont and Montana licenses apply to specific venues and one of the requirements is that they be enclosed at least by a fence. I have no idea what the deal is for NH, but having to maintain control of an entire ski area pursuant to liquor license rules seems challenging at best.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

kbroderick said:


> Does NH licensing apply to the entire premises or just to a named F&B venue? IIRC, both Vermont and Montana licenses apply to specific venues and one of the requirements is that they be enclosed at least by a fence. I have no idea what the deal is for NH, but having to maintain control of an entire ski area pursuant to liquor license rules seems challenging at best.


No idea.  But if an inspector came and folks were outside drinking then I could see how it would be a problem.


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## Riverveteran (Mar 3, 2022)

So easy owning/operating a ski area - who would ever get made or have a bad day?


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