# Green Peak at Waterville



## machski (Aug 31, 2016)

Looks like the new terrain may be in for this season:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...-ski-trails/OfgJY4Mte7d0GCrmNlVvSP/story.html


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## Jully (Aug 31, 2016)

No word on a loading carpet for the lift unfortunately.


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## Los (Aug 31, 2016)

I wonder what if any positive impact this will have on the skiing experience for intermediate and advanced skiers... Hopefully less crowded slopes/lift lines on the other side, but that's probably wishful thinking... 


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## doublediamond (Aug 31, 2016)

Why not move Quadzilla to Green Peak and World Cup to where Quadzilla is?  No one is going to use a long slow fixed grip lift serving low-intermediate to beginner terrain. Especially when there's a HSQ next door serving most of the expanded terrain already.  Why is Okemo so popular? Relatively easy terrain and high speed lifts!

edit Green not Greek


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2016)

If marketed correctly, WV could differentiate themselves as the best destination for beginners within two hours of Boston. Right now that title probably belongs to Sunapee


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## Jully (Aug 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If marketed correctly, WV could differentiate themselves as the best destination for beginners within two hours of Boston. Right now that title probably belongs to Sunapee



The full Green Peak build out plan definitely makes that case for WV. That would be quite a great area to take a lower intermediate! Even with this year's expansion of 10 trails or so a beginner / lower intermediate will be able to spend a full day there and be quite satisfied IMO. 

I would bet that the lines for White Peaks will see a slight reduction and the blues from the summit might get some reduced traffic. Quadzilla will probably get a big uptick in crowds though.


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> If marketed correctly, WV could differentiate themselves as the best destination for beginners within two hours of Boston. Right now that title probably belongs to Sunapee



As long as Nashoba Valley is in the game, the best they can hope for is #2.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2016)

Nashoba is great for beginners, but I'm more thinking a "real" Alpine skiing experience / destination. That's a lot of acreage they are adding that will be an exclusively beginner - low intermediate pod.  WV could make a compelling case for newer Boston metro skiers to not bother traveling the extra hour to Okemo etc. when all that caliber of skier is looking for is a short drive away in WV


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## Jully (Aug 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Nashoba is great for beginners, but I'm more thinking a "real" Alpine skiing experience / destination. That's a lot of acreage they are adding that will be an exclusively beginner - low intermediate pod.  WV could make a compelling case for newer Boston metro skiers to not bother traveling the extra hour to Okemo etc. when all that caliber of skier is looking for is a short drive away in WV



Especially for families looking for a vacation.


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## Gnarcissaro (Sep 1, 2016)

Everything I've seen on this here in NH, both in print and on TV has used the words "new lift" and "high capacity lift" when describing the chair. No mentioning of any specifics. When in reality the lift is a 31 year old triple being relocated, "high capacity" is a stretch. Shitty reporting, sneaky marketing moves, both?


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## machski (Sep 1, 2016)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Everything I've seen on this here in NH, both in print and on TV has used the words "new lift" and "high capacity lift" when describing the chair. No mentioning of any specifics. When in reality the lift is a 31 year old triple being relocated, "high capacity" is a stretch. Shitty reporting, sneaky marketing moves, both?



A lot of that lift is much newer than that from Doppelmayr after the lightning strike and fire a few years back.  The line is only 4300' long, a fixed grip is fine for that distance.  Have heard some rumors it will get a loading carpet but have not seen any confirmations on that.


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## Gnarcissaro (Sep 1, 2016)

Yes, WE'RE all aware of that. But Joe Shmo watching the news will have a detach in mind and be telling his buddies.

Not saying its the wrong move, just imagining some confusion.


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 1, 2016)

Its a dumb move from the perspective of lift orientation.  The entire pod should be serviced by a HSQ including Valley Run.  But from a business perspective, they are getting a new pod for $2m.   And they don't have money to do it right.  So its about as good as its going to get unless a new owner with money to burn takes over.

I have beginner kids.  Waterville is not that good for beginners.  I don't see this as much of an improvement.  I doubt I will even go to Waterville.  I will go to Pat's Peak.   Then perhaps Bretton Woods.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2016)

Really? It seems to me they're adding significant novice to low intermediate terrain with a decent amount of vertical. Is it because of the lift choice that you hold that opinion? 

Maybe I'm misreading the terrain expansion as more advanced than Im thinking it is.


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## dlague (Sep 2, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> I have beginner kids.  Waterville is not that good for beginners.  I don't see this as much of an improvement.  I doubt I will even go to Waterville.  I will go to Pat's Peak.   Then perhaps Bretton Woods.



They have the whole beginner area (lower meadows) and then there is Valley Run plus the new terrain should be plenty for beginners.   However, never been a big fan of WV overall.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Everything I've seen on this here in NH, both in print and on TV has used the words "new lift" and "high capacity lift" when describing the chair. No mentioning of any specifics. When in reality the lift is a 31 year old triple being relocated, "high capacity" is a stretch. Shitty reporting, sneaky marketing moves, both?



Was going to ask what kind of lift was going to be installed.  And with several "older" lifts having major issues of late, I would think that reusing an older lift may not be a great idea.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

...and as for the expansion, while we may nitpick, I honestly say good for them.  ANY terrain expansion is good in my mind.  Especially in this day and age.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2016)

Sky Trans is doing the install it looks like.

http://www.waterville.com/green-peak-expansion.html


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## slatham (Sep 2, 2016)

I think it's a smart and economical move given an underused triple and the availability of the Green Peak terrain. That terrain probably doesn't justify a HSQ, and the payback period to finance one would be too long and questionable. 

I saw the official press release and it was pretty clear they were installing a fixed grip lift, though it was silent on it being a used/relocated chair. It's amazing what the press will do to pump up a story, facts be damned.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2016)

Especially because they are looking to sell and likely wouldn't get back what they paid for a new lift.


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## skifree (Sep 3, 2016)

which will be faster  loading carpet or lift?


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## Los (Sep 3, 2016)

slatham said:


> I think it's a smart and economical move given an underused triple and the availability of the Green Peak terrain. That terrain probably doesn't justify a HSQ, and the payback period to finance one would be too long and questionable.
> 
> I saw the official press release and it was pretty clear they were installing a fixed grip lift, though it was silent on it being a used/relocated chair. It's amazing what the press will do to pump up a story, facts be damned.



It's Waterville that prepares the press release, not the press. If you compare the press release posted on the website with the story in the paper, you can tell that the story was substantially based on the press release. The reporter may not have cared enough to dig deeper or maybe didn't even think about it. 


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## Los (Sep 3, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Its a dumb move from the perspective of lift orientation.  The entire pod should be serviced by a HSQ including Valley Run.  But from a business perspective, they are getting a new pod for $2m.   And they don't have money to do it right.  So its about as good as its going to get unless a new owner with money to burn takes over.
> 
> I have beginner kids.  Waterville is not that good for beginners.  I don't see this as much of an improvement.  I doubt I will even go to Waterville.  I will go to Pat's Peak.   Then perhaps Bretton Woods.



By the way, I'm not sure Bretton is any better for absolute beginners (the jam anyone?) than Waterville. For advanced novices maybe, but for those just starting out I don't think either has an advantage over the other. 


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 6, 2016)

Los said:


> By the way, I'm not sure Bretton is any better for absolute beginners (the jam anyone?) than Waterville. For advanced novices maybe, but for those just starting out I don't think either has an advantage over the other.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



BW beginner quad is much easier lift to ride than the Lower Meadow lift.


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 6, 2016)

I didn't realize Chris Sununu is running for governor.  I suppose this Waterville development indicates his is frugal with money and fit the NH way.  Although perhaps he lacks vision...  

Anyways, Waterville has become a source of political attacks on sununu.  
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20160904/NEWS0604/160909749

I suppose a ski area owner governor would be good.  Although perhaps a conflict of interest with Cannon and Sunapee.


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## Jully (Sep 6, 2016)

I believe he's already laid out a plan for the resort if he should be elected. Hanging onto businesses like that would absolutely be a conflict of interest!


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## Smellytele (Sep 7, 2016)

Jully said:


> I believe he's already laid out a plan for the resort if he should be elected. Hanging onto businesses like that would absolutely be a conflict of interest!



He was already on the executive council which in NH has the power. The Governor is really just a figure head in NH.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 7, 2016)

So an elected official cant own a business?


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## bigbog (Sep 7, 2016)

Jully said:


> I believe he's already laid out a plan for the resort if he should be elected. Hanging onto businesses like that would absolutely be a conflict of interest!



Maybe just me but there's no way this should be an automatically driven decision.  That's the REAL problem, noone wants to dig into the details of anything anymore.  It's all guided by store-bought titles.   Most often these rules are created by the lifelong, career politicians who know absolutley nothing about stimulating re-training and thus job creation thoughout society.


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## Los (Sep 25, 2016)

New England ski industry has some new pics: http://newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=484



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## ss20 (Sep 25, 2016)

Los said:


> New England ski industry has some new pics: http://newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=484



Looks more like late-June work than late-Spetember work.  Hopening in 2-3 months?


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## doublediamond (Sep 26, 2016)

Wouldn't it be best to paint it in its new location? So there's no scratches from construction?


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## SnoDevil97 (Sep 26, 2016)

Still amazed WV is relocating that ancient, slow lift to their new area.  Also curious how they'll be able to manage the snow there, they were barely able to get the main mountain operational last winter and I've heard they've lost many mountain ops employees.


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## Jully (Sep 26, 2016)

I've heard they didn't exactly lose the employees as they more let them go or sorta forced them out. This is from an old racing buddy who is there a lot, so it's total heresay, but the way their ops have suffered I could believe it.


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## doublediamond (Sep 26, 2016)

Ancient? It's from 1986 and heavily modded in 2000 including a whole new drive terminal.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Wouldn't it be best to paint it in its new location? So there's no scratches from construction?



Likely would be too cold to paint metal by then.  Quicker too if they had the crews available before the move happens while nothing was going on.  Considering when they actually started clearing, this is moving along quite rapidly IMHO.


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## Jully (Sep 28, 2016)

I'm just curious if they'll get snowmaking installed in time. That's the one thing I'm not certain of.


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## canobie#1 (Sep 30, 2016)

I highly doubt they would plan on opening this peak without snowmaking, so I wouldn't worry. This addition looks really nice, hopefully it skis just as good as it looks.


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## ss20 (Nov 27, 2016)

Jully said:


> I'm just curious if they'll get snowmaking installed in time. That's the one thing I'm not certain of.



Hey Jully can you buy me some lotto tickets! :lol:



> With ground frost and snow coming and going on Green Peak, management reportedly acknowledges that total excavation of the new trails will not be completed this year. Much of the novice terrain has been excavated and a temporary snowmaking infrastructure is being installed from South Street to the summit. New advanced terrain may open this winter if natural snowfall allows.



http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=510

I still say they won't even get the lift running this year.  Towers not in place yet?  This whole expansion is half-assed.  No HSQ as planned.  No snowmaking this year.  Trail work won't be done.  Lift might get open.  Bullshit.  I feel for any of the WV skiers.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 27, 2016)

Well, it's not uncommon for even the wealthy well run mountains to not complete excavation and install snowmaking all in one summer.  I recall that being the case with a trail or two on South face at Okemo. Same thing in Sunbowl at Stratton.

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## Jully (Nov 27, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Hey Jully can you buy me some lotto tickets! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha well what do you know. It'll be interesting what exactly their temp system can cover. That's too bad as I was planning on doing a day at WV this year to check it out / go to WV for the first time over decade. Probably will still go as the terrain isn't really that expansive for anyone who's not an intermediate cruiser anyways, but the principal of it, I agree.

Setbacks are certainly common in expansions, but this one does seem rather slow/odd with their work last summer and the triple plus now snowmaking.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, it's not uncommon for even the wealthy well run mountains to not complete excavation and install snowmaking all in one summer.  I recall that being the case with a trail or two on South face at Okemo. Same thing in Sunbowl at Stratton.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



If they didn't half-ass this it would have been done. Clearing didn't begin until late August and parts of the triple were still standing as of early October despite them having the permits for years. 

Ski areas routinely add additional trails/snowmaking at a later time due to costs (and to keep the new terrain PR machine going longer), not due to time constraints.  Snowmaking pipe is very expensive.  Whiteface quoted $500k for pipe, hydrants, and valves for a 4600 ft trail a few years ago.  If your new trail can't provide an immediate $75k+ return (on top of the additional snowmaking and grooming costs), you're going to wait until you have the cash to do so.

So was this half-assed because Sununu is incompetent (sucks to live in NH if so), or because he was distracted by his campaign?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Who knows. Only someone close to the owners could provide a truthful answer.  

Could be the campaign. It could be they lost a ton of money last year during the worst season in recent memory and became gun shy on taking on more debt.  Any number of reasons. I mean look 40 miles to the west. Ragged started cutting trails on Pinnacle in spring of 2012 and we still don't know when the lift and snowmaking will go in. And Ragged is owned by a pretty massive company

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## machski (Nov 28, 2016)

Does anyone really think the current Green Peak adds all that much value to WV either for the business or perspective visitors?  Yes it's new terrain but not much of very high interest.  May cause a day visit to check it out but doubt it holds much more attention than that.  With that, I'm sure that is why this crawled forward.  I also wonder if it got pushed late this year by Chris not for political gain but if he won, he'd be stepping down.  Perhaps he was the strongest voice to go forward with the expansion in the ownership group?

Who knows for sure.  The only interest this expansion has for me personally is if the future proposed phase happens with the link to the village to the top of Green.  If that happens, it will be big for WV.  If not, the current expansion is nice but not a huge attraction in itself.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

The step forward to future expansion is why the project has any value I think.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

To me, the Green Peak terrain just offers a bit more variety for lower intermediate level skiers as a step up to progress towards the summit. Though some of the trails on the map are rated black. That seems like a stretch looking at topo maps. Doesn't appear to be all that steep

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## Los (Nov 28, 2016)

Not to get off topic, but did anyone ski Waterville this weekend? Curious how it was... We're debating whether it's worth it to go this weekend (as opposed to cannon or Bretton..) 


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

machski said:


> Does anyone really think the current Green Peak adds all that much value to WV either for the business or perspective visitors?



If it was served with a HSQ, it would be valuable terrain. But right now, you have an expansion served by a fixed grip lift that is essentially parallel to a shorter HSQ which serves a majority of the new terrain. No one will ride on the new lift except for a handful of people seeking to ski the new green trail from its top.

The problem is they had a great asset -- their youngest FG lift with only 16 year old electronics due to the lightning strike -- that was unused, so they wanted to put it in a place to use it, which they failed at.

A smart frugal businessman would have moved the Quadzilla over to Green Peak and sold the WC Triple to a ski area in need of a FG lift, or would have used it to replace the Northside Double -- which could use a capacity increase -- or split it and used it for replacements of both the Lower Meadows double (good luck skiing as a single parent and 2 kids there now!) and the High Country Double, both of which are the oldest lifts standing (along with the J-Bar) back to when the place opened!

And if last season's bottom line really stalled them on the expansion, why not just wait another season and do everything right? 

Only logical explanation is this was a campaign move to try to stave off criticism of Sununu's leadership at WV by pointing to WV being the only area expanding.


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## mbedle (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> If it was served with a HSQ, it would be valuable terrain. But right now, you have an expansion served by a fixed grip lift that is essentially parallel to a shorter HSQ which serves a majority of the new terrain. No one will ride on the new lift except for a handful of people seeking to ski the new green trail from its top.
> 
> The problem is they had a great asset -- their youngest FG lift with only 16 year old electronics due to the lightning strike -- that was unused, so they wanted to put it in a place to use it, which they failed at.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I am wrong, but the HSQ does not serve the majority of the new terrain. All of the blue and blacks off the peak can only be access with the triple.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but the HSQ does not serve the majority of the new terrain. All of the blue and blacks off the peak can only be access with the triple.



Yeah I thought everything except the new green trail was triple only.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

IDK it looks like you can ski about half of the new trail "milage" (and more considering only the green off the top will open) from the current Quad.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> IDK it looks like you can ski about half of the new trail "milage" (and more considering only the green off the top will open) from the current Quad.



really?

That's not the way the trail map looks to me.  I agree that having the terrain serviced by a HSQ would be optimal, but 4300' isn't a terribly long fixed grip lift. Both the new Valley House at Sugarbush and the Skyline Quad at Sugarloaf are of similar length and were installed as FG with conveyor loading to make them a little faster.  Maybe WV can add a conveyor to make it a little more tolerable.


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## slatham (Nov 28, 2016)

Everything above Trail 51 requires the Triple. I think the map is a bit off and in reality that terrain is 80% of the new available acreage.


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## machski (Nov 29, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> If it was served with a HSQ, it would be valuable terrain. But right now, you have an expansion served by a fixed grip lift that is essentially parallel to a shorter HSQ which serves a majority of the new terrain. No one will ride on the new lift except for a handful of people seeking to ski the new green trail from its top.
> 
> The problem is they had a great asset -- their youngest FG lift with only 16 year old electronics due to the lightning strike -- that was unused, so they wanted to put it in a place to use it, which they failed at.
> 
> ...


The change from a new HSQ to re-using the world cup triple for green was hatched two years ago.  Was not a campaign rush decision.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 8, 2017)

ss20 said:


> I still say they won't even get the lift running this year.  Towers not in place yet?  This whole expansion is half-assed.  No HSQ as planned.  No snowmaking this year.  Trail work won't be done.  Lift might get open.  Bullshit.  I feel for any of the WV skiers.



I somewhat agreed with you that the lift wouldn't be likely this season when you made this post.  

We were wrong.  The Green Peak Triple opens at Waterville this weekend.  It was advertised on the radio today.


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 9, 2017)

Its been on their website all week also.


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